# TiVo Alternatives?



## Saturn

I've been a TiVo user since the Series 1 some 18 (!) years ago. The whole point was to time-shift and skip commercials. We've had our ups and downs, but our Bolt (lifetime sub) + 3 Minis are working fine. The minis are too slow and buggy to be used for Youtube/Hulu/Netflix so we also have Roku sticks on 2 of the TVs. 

If TiVo is going to start pre-roll ads the whole kit is going on E-bay and I'll need an alternative. 3-4 OTA (ATSC) tuners, 1TB DVR, view-able from an iPad and several Rokus.

Is HDHomeRun my best bet here? Most of our TV is watched pre-recorded, though I do like to start watching football games halfway in to skip all the commercials and the between-play waiting.

Auto-skip would be great, but not a deal breaker - a (responsive) 30 second skip, and 7-second back has worked fine for the last 18 years. I don't care about suggestions - just something with a reliable tuner that will record our shows and play them back ad-free. 

Anything else I should consider?


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## Adam C.

I would suggest the Recast from Amazon. The reviews have been positive. It's currently on sale for Prime Members.

https://www.amazon.com/Fire-TV-Reca...ywords=recast&qid=1569080877&s=gateway&sr=8-1


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## Hercules67

I will get rid of my TiVo also if this is rolled out. The ReCast is an option.


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## JoeKustra

On AVS Forum: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-h...azon-recast-ota-dvr-formerly-known-frank.html


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## Saturn

Does the Recast have a Roku app? I'm not super keen on replacing my Rokus with Fire sticks. The Rokus work great and seem to be a neutral ground between Amazon and Google's little spat.


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## Adam C.

Saturn said:


> Does the Recast have a Roku app? I'm not super keen on replacing my Rokus with Fire sticks. The Rokus work great and seem to be a neutral ground between Amazon and Google's little spat.


No, it only supports Fire TV.

Amazon's Fire TV Recast OTA DVR Six-Month Review - Cord Cutters News


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## BNBTivo

Sell the Tivos now while they still have value. 

But yeah, Recast is the best option. Fire sticks are cheap. Not sure about your current needs, but have you looked at streaming options as well?


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## Thunderclap

HDHomeRun with my Plex server is my backup. It works pretty well.


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## FubarJeb

I disagree that the Amazon Recast is the best option, and I recommend reading some of the reviews from customers who purchased it.

The Amazon customer fond4tech listed the following cons.
https://www.amazon.com/Fire-TV-Recast-over-the-air-DVR-1TB-150-hours/dp/B074J1GPB8

-Program Guide only goes out a few days so your ability to set up future recordings for the first time stinks but remember there is no subscription fee so I am willing to try.

-4 tuners yes but after speaking with tech support there are only two transcoders meaning you can only view a max of two simultaneous shows.

- a very basic user interface without lots of the functionality available on TiVo like commercial skip, slow motion, frame by frame, full-featured remote controller, etc.

- No 4k Vudu app for Fire TV. The inferior workaround is you can sideload the Vudu app but I could only get HDX as my highest quality stream although I have 4k Vudu content

- The 4k video out from FireTV 4k Stick absolutely fails on my LG OLED screen. I uploaded two pictures running credits (black background / white text) of the same movie. One picture shows the "black" of the screen almost greyish while the other picture is the same movie credits but through my Roku 4K and the black is as it is supposed to be on OLED which is all true black.

Also, I think the hardware tuners from Silicon Dust (HDHomeRun products) paired with the Channels DVR, Emby or Plex software are worth looking at.

Silicon Dust Products page:
Consumer - SiliconDust


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## Hercules67

The Google - Amazon spat is over. Haven't you heard?

YouTube is back on Fire Sticks and Amazon Prime is back on Chromecast.


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## Saturn

Hercules67 said:


> The Google - Amazon spat is over. Haven't you heard?
> 
> YouTube is back on Fire Sticks and Amazon Prime is back on Chromecast.


For now it is...


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## Saturn

BNBTivo said:


> Not sure about your current needs, but have you looked at streaming options as well?


We have Netflix, Hulu and Youtube Premium as well. But there's still several programs we get OTA. I'm sure I could probably find streaming options for most of them, but adding more monthly subscriptions is the exact opposite of what I want. I've always had Lifetime TiVos...


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## WhenenRome

Hercules67 said:


> The Google - Amazon spat is over. Haven't you heard?
> 
> YouTube is back on Fire Sticks and Amazon Prime is back on Chromecast.


All true. Unfortunately that doesn't affect the subject at hand, that the Recast is exclusive to Amazon Fire TV. They don't appear to have plans to open that up.

For Roku, TabloTV is the best bet for an OTA DVR. It renders and performs better, and is far more stable than either "AirTV-via-Sling" or "HDHomeRun-via-Plex" (and the Recast on FireTV, which we also tried). It is all-in more expensive than AirTV and Recast, but to us, was worth it. The UI isn't as slick looking as Recast or Plex, but functions well.


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## Saturn

I should also mention the WAF (Wife acceptance factor). It must be easy to use, or it simply won't get used. If I have to use one app to setup recordings and another app to play them, and another to play live TV (which it sounds like the case on HDHomeRun) that's probably not a good plan.


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## BNBTivo

Saturn said:


> We have Netflix, Hulu and Youtube Premium as well. But there's still several programs we get OTA. I'm sure I could probably find streaming options for most of them, but adding more monthly subscriptions is the exact opposite of what I want. I've always had Lifetime TiVos...


Ah, yeah. Forgot you were OTA.


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## BNBTivo

WhenenRome said:


> All true. Unfortunately that doesn't affect the subject at hand, that the Recast is exclusive to Amazon Fire TV. They don't appear to have plans to open that up.
> 
> For Roku, TabloTV is the best bet for an OTA DVR. It renders and performs better, and is far more stable than either "AirTV-via-Sling" or "HDHomeRun-via-Plex" (and the Recast on FireTV, which we also tried). It is all-in more expensive than AirTV and Recast, but to us, was worth it. The UI isn't as slick looking as Recast or Plex, but functions well.


I didn't even know about Tablo. That looks great! 4 tuner with lifetime for $350 and works with Roku. Not bad at all.


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## OrangeCrush

Your DVR options are limited on Roku unfortunately. Highest WAF on Roku is TabloTV. There's also YouTube TV for $50/month as a cable-like option that doesn't require additional hardware.

Highest WAF overall but you'll need to switch over to Fire Sticks 4K* (~$35 each) = Channels DVR. You would also need an HDHomeRun and some kind of always-on computer (doesn't need to be especially powerful) to run the DVR. Ongoing cost is $8/mo or $80/year. This is what I'm doing. I'll probably put together a guide for it pretty soon. Their website isn't the greatest.


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## Adam C.

FubarJeb said:


> I disagree that the Amazon Recast is the best option, and I recommend reading some of the reviews from customers who purchased it.
> 
> The Amazon customer fond4tech listed the following cons.
> https://www.amazon.com/Fire-TV-Recast-over-the-air-DVR-1TB-150-hours/dp/B074J1GPB8
> 
> -Program Guide only goes out a few days so your ability to set up future recordings for the first time stinks but remember there is no subscription fee so I am willing to try.
> 
> -4 tuners yes but after speaking with tech support there are only two transcoders meaning you can only view a max of two simultaneous shows.
> 
> - a very basic user interface without lots of the functionality available on TiVo like commercial skip, slow motion, frame by frame, full-featured remote controller, etc.
> 
> - No 4k Vudu app for Fire TV. The inferior workaround is you can sideload the Vudu app but I could only get HDX as my highest quality stream although I have 4k Vudu content
> 
> - The 4k video out from FireTV 4k Stick absolutely fails on my LG OLED screen. I uploaded two pictures running credits (black background / white text) of the same movie. One picture shows the "black" of the screen almost greyish while the other picture is the same movie credits but through my Roku 4K and the black is as it is supposed to be on OLED which is all true black.


Everyone has their own individual needs and priorities. None of those factors listed are important to me or would sway me to other alternatives.


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## WhenenRome

This is going to be a bit lengthy and detailed, only to really show how our "Tivo Alternative" experience has gone, and that we didn't just throw things at the wall to see what stuck. We did our research and we really tried out different options to get a feel for things. What works for us may not work for everyone, but this is our deal:

*Some background up until now...*

We'd been using Tivo since Series 3 ("Premiere HD" boxes), even earlier if you count "DirecTIVO." That changed early this year, when the writing on the wall for Tivo as a service and a company, just started becoming too clear to ignore - at least for us. They are no longer innovating in the field of home/personal TV entertainment... What they're doing is mostly clinging to a field that's shrinking (QAM cable / STB), and slowly & WAY-behind following on one that's growing (streaming TV)... and even with that, their direction is SO not clear.

To give some context, the last setup we'd used for several years, starting in 2012, was a Roamio Plus with 3 minis. Initially, it was with Verizon Fios, then we switched to Spectrum after Frontier turned Fios into a disaster. Luckily we didn't have to use an SDV tuning adapter on Spectrum, since none of our chosen channels were affected. This worked really well at first, but we started to notice the "diminished capacity" for things like Netflix and Prime Video. We tried out two different versions of the Bolt over the last year or two, and frankly, they were disappointing. They were both NOISY (that fricken little fan - like Barbie's hairdryer never turned off!), felt poorly assembled from cheap materials, and we just didn't overall see it as enough of a step above the Roamio.

Last year, our MOCA connected Minis just started freaking out. By that, I mean they became unstable. This started happening a little while after Hydra UI was rolled out. BTW, I like it - have no problem with it whatsoever... Tivo needed to evolve that UI, and we thought it was good. It's just that their hardware setups may not have been ready for it... So we needed to try a different route to deliver TV to our other rooms. It was goodbye minis, and ultimately hello to Rokus (at first, Streaming Stick Plus) early this year. That led us to trying different home setups overall, which I mentioned a few posts above.

*What we chose and why we chose it...*

What we settled on is a Roku Ultra in the living room, with a few Streaming Sticks for the bedroom & rec room TV's... We wanted some DVR capability for "cable" network channels, so we tried two options that had the channels we wanted: SlingTV (which we also tried with its compatible AirTV OTA DVR - it's a dud), and Spectrum's "TV Choice" service - which allows you to choose your 10 favorite networks, and also happens to give you the local channels for roughly $30/month plus $5/month for a cloud DVR option with a 50-program capacity. On both Sling and Spectrum's platforms, you can't pause or rewind Live TV - only your DVR recorded programs.

On Roku, Spectrum's app overall renders video & sound better than Sling - arguably better than Tivo's QAM, and though not perfect or glitch-free, far more stable than Sling. In most cases, you don't really "need" the DVR option because almost everything is available On-Demand the day after it airs. Yes, there are sometimes commercials when you do that (many times, there aren't any - especially the further you get away from the original air date). But there are still _way less_ commercials than what's originally aired. So we stuck with the Spectrum option.

We combine it with a Tablo setup in the living room where our router is located, with an exterior OTA antenna. We use Spectrum's app exclusively for the "cable" channels (it's not cable anymore, but I'm not sure what else to call them) with its Cloud DVR as needed (a few programs don't always migrate to On-Demand, so it's more of a "safety net"), and we use the Tablo exclusively for the OTA channels.

*Other differences....*

On Roku, switching between apps - Tablo, Spectrum, Prime, Netflix, etc. - is seamless, no lag, easy-peasy. Prior to making the change, I've read many times here people saying that switching input sources on a TV to watch different platforms is no big deal - that they don't get why unitizing these services on a Roku or FireTV is important. Let me set this clear: Using a streaming platform to switch between services is FAR more intuitive, consistent feeling, easier, and more stable, than bopping around the source / input selector for your TV. It IS different, and it IS better.

*Some misconceptions to bust....*

Since our home network is strong, there are no issues streaming wirelessly to the other TV's via Roku. If you're going to stream wirelessly, you need a strong, stable wi-fi network. You're going to see a ton of reviews out there complaining about every stick option & every one of its apps regarding "buffering." I promise, 90% of those, it's the fault of the wifi network of the person posting - not of the app or streaming platform. And the reviews about pixelating on OTA devices, most often they're using an indoor (or even attic) antenna. Just keep that in mind.

*Wrapping this up...*

Overall, we're saving money. We no longer pay for monthly Tivo service or cable card fees for the Tivo box. With Tablo, there is a monthly fee of $5 for their enhanced guide service (or $50/year, $150 lifetime). It's not required, but without it, the DVR functionality is much less and guide data is reduced from 2 weeks to 24 hours. To us, it's worth it.

It's been several months, and we don't miss Tivo now, at least not in any practical non-sentimental way. Even beyond what I wrote here, there's a lot more variety to what you can watch via a Roku platform. (Fire TV, too, but not AS much - and using Fire TV is like using the Prime Video app for your entire UI experience... NOT the best for such a purpose).

I listened when Tivo announced Roku apps in January that aren't even in a "beta" phase on Roku all these months later. I waited a month or so to hear more details, and based on the last two years+ of Tivo's patterns of "talking about" paths, and then not actually going in a clear direction, I didn't have enough confidence that anything would come of that. So far, it feels like my instincts were right.

I totally get that not everyone enjoys change, and I respect the comfort that some feel in keeping with what they're used to. But I know, and I think everyone really knows deep down, that this is where the market is going. Since this brand was once such an innovator, it's a bummer that so many people got here before Tivo did.

If anyone has questions about why we chose this setup vs. FireTV/Recast, HD HomeRun via Plex, or anything else (I know, it's a LOT!) please feel free to ask.


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## mdavej

FubarJeb said:


> I disagree that the Amazon Recast is the best option, and I recommend reading some of the reviews from customers who purchased it.
> 
> The Amazon customer fond4tech listed the following cons.
> https://www.amazon.com/Fire-TV-Recast-over-the-air-DVR-1TB-150-hours/dp/B074J1GPB8
> 
> -Program Guide only goes out a few days so your ability to set up future recordings for the first time stinks but remember there is no subscription fee so I am willing to try.
> 
> -4 tuners yes but after speaking with tech support there are only two transcoders meaning you can only view a max of two simultaneous shows.
> 
> - a very basic user interface without lots of the functionality available on TiVo like commercial skip, slow motion, frame by frame, full-featured remote controller, etc.
> 
> - No 4k Vudu app for Fire TV. The inferior workaround is you can sideload the Vudu app but I could only get HDX as my highest quality stream although I have 4k Vudu content
> 
> - The 4k video out from FireTV 4k Stick absolutely fails on my LG OLED screen. I uploaded two pictures running credits (black background / white text) of the same movie. One picture shows the "black" of the screen almost greyish while the other picture is the same movie credits but through my Roku 4K and the black is as it is supposed to be on OLED which is all true black.


Maybe a really early review. Most are non-issues.

- I checked my guide just now, and it still goes out a full 14 days as it always has.

- True on the two streams and basic interface. Not a good option if you need 3 or more streams. But six quick 30 sec jumps instantly skips commercials like the old days on Tivo. Amazon claims commercial skip feature is planned.

- Not sure what Vudu has to do with OTA DVR functionality, but it's true Amazon has no Vudu app. Last time I checked, Tivo didn't have a Vudu app either. In any case, I easily side loaded it on my stick, and 4k works fine.

- 4k issues are user error in this case. Just turn on HDR tone mapping on your TV, and everything looks fine.

Tablo or Channels is probably the best option for Roku users at the moment. But Fire is really a superior platform over all in many respects (voice control, side loading Android TV apps, speed).

While Silicon Dust's tuners work well with several DVR apps, their own app is absolutely terrible. So you should avoid that if possible.

Some really nice things about Recast are guide integration with other apps, universal search, voice control (i.e., "watch PBS" or "watch channel four" or "record the good place"), and low price.

FWIW, I've replaced Tivo systems with Recast in two cord cutter households so far and it's been working well. Yes, I miss the advanced DVR features of Tivo. But what I gain with integrated streaming options makes it worth the trade off for me.

Regarding Spectrum Choice, I had that package for a while and really liked it. The a la carte aspect made it pretty much the perfect package for me. It even worked fine with my lifetime Tivo. But they kept raising the "broadcast fee" every year. When it went over $10, that was the last straw. So I cut the cord and went with OTA plus DirecTV NOW (similar to Sling, PS Vue, Youtube TV, Hulu Live, etc.). But they keep doing insane price increases as well, so I'll probably drop them eventually too.


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## Lurker1

Who provides the guide data for each of the alternative DVRs? I think I am leaning towards switching to Tablo, but I want to make sure I don't end up with Rovi crap again.


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## schatham

Do any Roku models have the ability to pause live TV apps like Xfinity even for 20 minutes or so?


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## WhenenRome

Lurker1 said:


> Who provides the guide data for each of the alternative DVRs? I think I am leaning towards switching to Tablo, but I want to make sure I don't end up with Rovi crap again.


Gracenote is Tablo's data provider.


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## gary.buhrmaster

WhenenRome said:


> Gracenote is Tablo's data provider.


One should, of course, remember that guide providers can change (I know of at least one alternative solution who changed guide providers a couple of years ago). It is, essentially, about money, and TiVo (Rovi) has certain advantages in some cases (at least as they are currently structured; that will likely shift a bit with the eventual spin-out), and those savings may become compelling for some companies.


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## wizwor

Saturn said:


> I've been a TiVo user since the Series 1 some 18 (!) years ago. The whole point was to time-shift and skip commercials...If TiVo is going to start pre-roll ads the whole kit is going on E-bay and I'll need an alternative. 3-4 OTA (ATSC) tuners, 1TB DVR, view-able from an iPad and several Rokus.


A lot of passionate and uninformed responses to your post. I have some of those too, but I think it is best to ask you what you watch and how you watch it.

If skipping commercials and time-shifting is what you want, I love the Recast and the Tablo TV DVR. The Recast has a lot going for it, but picture quality is not one of them. If you have an ISP (necessary for both), Recast integrates some OTT programming seamlessly -- which might make your family happy.

I don't like the HDHomeRun experience, but picture quality is good.

I like YouTube's streaming package. If you are satisfied with OTA (like me), just put up an antenna and get a DVR+ off ebay.

I think most people would be most happy with a Recast, an antenna, Sony Vue, Philo TV, and a couple Prime Channels.


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## dishrich

wizwor said:


> The Recast has a lot going for it


Since the subject was brought up, who IS Recast's guide data provider???


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## tapokata

I'll politely disagree with some here on a point or two- my experience comes from using Tivo's (from HD platforms through Bolts), Tablo, and Recast. The Tablo is currently not active, but I have lifetime service purchased with an initial four tuner model (that I managed to break), replaced by a Tablo Dual 64.

As for picture quality:
Your best for OTA is from Tivo, as there is no transcoding or modification of the source received by your antenna. While others may have a different experience, the Amazon Recast is second- while it transcodes the video to 720P/60 (no matter the source), the upscaling applied by a good television display typically provides for a good picture quality (no OTT live channel streams, such as from Hulu Live or Sling TV are at higher resolution). Some folks have issues with the bit rate starting out low, but in my configuration the network connections are all hard-wired, so I don't see this issue. The Tablo video transcode resolution can be user adjusted, but my experience is that Tablo does not transcode SD source material very well, and seems to stumble de-interlacing some SD material, leaving lots of mouse-toothing on angular edges, as well as other artifacts. For HD sources material, Tablo performs as well as the Recast.

As for the user experience:
Provided you aren't watching more than two screens at one time, the Recast works well using the Recast tuners for both live viewing, and DVR recording. It's an easy jump between live and DVR inside the fire tv app, and the standard guide is well integrated. I've referred to this arrangement in other places as a lunar orbit system- the moon-like DVR, which is dependent upon the influence from FireTV earth, works in concert with each other, locked in a gravity embrace. That said, it only works with FireTV based systems (sticks or FireTV edition TV's).

Tablo is a planetary videosystem, and as the Tablo is more platform independent, works independent of the streaming platform used. That said, it's slow to tune changing stations, and is not as snappy as others for Channel Surfing. It can stream to up to six screens at the same time, independent of recording, as the transcoding occurs as the recording is made. If the SD video quality doesn't bother you, it's a pretty good choice, although not as tightly integrated as others.

TiVo, of course, is and wants to be the center of your viewing universe. If Tivo were to offer more OTT apps, such as Sling TV or Hulu Live (unlikely to ever happen, given Tivo's market dependence as a supplier of cable system set top boxes), it would likely be the perfect user experience. That said, to utilize non-Tivo apps requires a separate OTT source, and a change of input configurations, and different look and feel interfaces for each.

If TiVo decides to insist on pre-rolling advertising on DVR recordings I have made from OTA sources, we'd quickly shift to the Recast, full time.


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## mdavej

schatham said:


> Do any Roku models have the ability to pause live TV apps like Xfinity even for 20 minutes or so?


I don't recall the Xfinity app on Roku having pause capability. It only shows live TV.

Is the point you're trying to make that Roku lacks the memory capacity to support any live buffering?


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## mdavej

dishrich said:


> Since the subject was brought up, who IS Recast's guide data provider???


A couple of sources have reported it's Gracenote (or whatever they're called now). I haven't noticed glaring errors or ridiculously verbose and subjective synopses like I often did with Tivo.


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## WhenenRome

mdavej said:


> Regarding Spectrum Choice, I had that package for a while and really liked it. The a la carte aspect made it pretty much the perfect package for me. It even worked fine with my lifetime Tivo. But they kept raising the "broadcast fee" every year. When it went over $10, that was the last straw. So I cut the cord and went with OTA plus DirecTV NOW (similar to Sling, PS Vue, Youtube TV, Hulu Live, etc.). But they keep doing insane price increases as well, so I'll probably drop them eventually too.


That fee is running around $6 on our bill, and I included it in the per-month cost I described. And HOW I wish I could "delete that as an option," because we literally don't need Spectrum to deliver those OTA channels to us. But the way it totals right now, the Spectrum Choice package is still a better deal than Sling or any other OTT service, as far as the actual channels they make available and what we subscribe to. We'd actually lose one of those 10 if we went with Sling.



 tapokata said:


> Amazon Recast is second- while it transcodes the video to 720P/60 (no matter the source), the upscaling applied by a good television display typically provides for a good picture quality (no OTT live channel streams, such as from Hulu Live or Sling TV are at higher resolution). Some folks have issues with the bit rate starting out low, but in my configuration the network connections are all hard-wired, so I don't see this issue. The Tablo video transcode resolution can be user adjusted, but my experience is that Tablo does not transcode SD source material very well, and seems to stumble de-interlacing some SD material, leaving lots of mouse-toothing on angular edges, as well as other artifacts. For HD sources material, Tablo performs as well as the Recast.


I'll actually second that sentence. SD doesn't look that great on Tablo via Roku. But to be honest, the only SD channel that it is ever set to in our house - and it's like "background, I'm doing the dishes" TV - would be Buzzr (the retro game show channel) with Match Game playing. I'm the Los Angeles TV market. Pretty much everything we personally watch is available in HD, and it renders and operates really well for us on every TV (just fyi, that's through ethernet-wired Roku Ultra on a 4K HDR Vizio in our living room, and the wifi streaming plus sticks on three 1080's in other rooms).



tapokata said:


> Provided you aren't watching more than two screens at one time, the Recast works well using the Recast tuners for both live viewing, and DVR recording.


That is another poor spot for us with Recast - that you can't watch more than two Recast streams at one time. As you said, Tablo is capable of six. But there are so many out there who won't ever have an issue with that.

Really, I feel like the Recast was made for people who are already in the FireTV ecosystem and enjoy that. We use Prime Video through the Roku pretty often, and we like the UI environment for that purpose... But using that structure as FireTV's home UI for navigating through different apps, and coming out of Tivo's user experience, Roku's home UI just feels more user-friendly and less chaotic.



tapokata said:


> Tablo is more platform independent, works independent of the streaming platform used. That said, it's slow to tune changing stations, and is not as snappy as others for Channel Surfing.


Let's just spotlight that elephant in the room: No streaming option is going to satisfy the need to flip through channels. Not Recast, Not Tablo... I didn't find a noticeable difference in their load times (5 seconds, maybe 7 on a wifi). But even if I did, I couldn't in good conscience say one is better than the other at channel surfing, because neither works for that purpose. Nothing via any streaming option. I'm just being upfront, not judging: If this is a need that one can't live without, there isn't a streaming solution for it... definitely stick with a Tivo or other non-streamer option.


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## schatham

mdavej said:


> A couple of sources have reported it's Gracenote (or whatever they're called now). I haven't noticed glaring errors or ridiculously verbose and subjective synopses like I often did with Tivo.


I thought one of the Roku's had a memory stick that allowed a small buffer that would work with any app. Xfinity was just an example.


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## BNBTivo

schatham said:


> Do any Roku models have the ability to pause live TV apps like Xfinity even for 20 minutes or so?


This question needs clarification. Roku has tons and tons of live video/TV apps that you can pause and time shift on any current model.


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## schatham

BNBTivo said:


> This question needs clarification. Roku has tons and tons of live video/TV apps that you can pause and time shift on any current model.


Never mind I found the info. It was the Roku TV that could pause live TV with a USB stick, not a Roku Box or stick.

Roku


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## mdavej

WhenenRome said:


> I'll actually second that sentence...


Lots of great points. But I never said any of what you quoted. I've never even seen a Tablo. I'm in no position to make any judgements about its picture quality.


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## Saturn

I'm actually really surprised that Recast and Tablo re-encode OTA. I figured all DVRs just dumped the OTA stream to disk, but I suppose realtime encoding is cheap enough that they can do it and increase # of hours per TB, so why not? Still seems strange, given how cheap disk space is these days.


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## mdavej

Recast records full resolution and does not re-encode. It just transcodes on playback to conserve bandwidth. I have no idea what a Tablo does.


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## Saturn

wizwor said:


> A lot of passionate and uninformed responses to your post. I have some of those too, but I think it is best to ask you what you watch and how you watch it.


I was hoping this thread would also help others, but I'll give a little more detail: My wife watches most of the DVR'd stuff, on a single TV. When I watch, it is typically on a different TV, and it is football, pre-recorded or starting halfway through. Even lower priority is the guest and master bedrooms. I typically watch YouTube premium, and I also have a Plex server setup for some ripped movies, etc. We don't channel surf - well, occasionally visitors do but I'm not going to optimize for visitors. They can channel surf ACTUAL live TV from the antenna on any TV in the house if they want.



> If skipping commercials and time-shifting is what you want, I love the Recast and the Tablo TV DVR. The Recast has a lot going for it, but picture quality is not one of them. If you have an ISP (necessary for both), Recast integrates some OTT programming seamlessly -- which might make your family happy.


Bad picture quality is probably a deal breaker, for me. I have a really nice 1080p TV I watch football on, and any artifacts or resolution issues would drive me crazy.



> I don't like the HDHomeRun experience, but picture quality is good.


What don't you like about HDHomeRun?



> I like YouTube's streaming package. If you are satisfied with OTA (like me), just put up an antenna and get a DVR+ off ebay.


OTA solves the issues that Hulu + Netflix does not. (honestly I'd rather dump Hulu). I have a fantastic antenna and get all the stations in at a signal strength strong enough to need attenuators.



> I think most people would be most happy with a Recast, an antenna, Sony Vue, Philo TV, and a couple Prime Channels.


That's a lot of options. :/


----------



## wizwor

Saturn said:


> That's a lot of options. :/


I meant to say a Recast, an antenna, Sony Vue, *PLUTO* TV, and a couple Prime Channels. I have a Recast. I have seven Echo Shows and the Recast exists, primarily, to stream my antenna to the Shows, but I have a 4K Fire Stick on every television in my house (they are $25 all the time now). I have Pluto installed on each FTV Stick. The Recast does a good job recording and watching OTA television. Pluto -- which is free -- adds a lot of programming and integrates into the Recast EPG. This lifts WAF. Philo and Vue also integrate into the Recast EPG. Philo adds all the cable 'filler' channels for $20 per month. Vue is a true cable replacement for $50 per month. I have two televisions which are not near a coax feed or ethernet and use an FTV Stick to feed the 32" LED, but a Powerline adapter and a Mini feed the 60" plasma (which I watch football on) because the picture quality is much better.

Most cord cutters are looking for a cable replacement. Vue is all that. Streaming it to a Roku or FTV Stick is pretty great -- five streams, cable news, cable sports, some locals, etc. A Recast adds the rest of the local channels (I am a Heroes and Icons fan who watches PBS sub-channels, StartTV, MeTV, ThisTV, Cozi, Laff, Escape Grit, Comet, Charge, Buzzr, ION, IONLife, Bounce, and GetTV -- which are not available as Vue locals). Prime Channels lets you add premium channels like HBO to the grid on a month to month basis.



Saturn said:


> I was hoping this thread would also help others, but I'll give a little more detail: My wife watches most of the DVR'd stuff, on a single TV. When I watch, it is typically on a different TV, and it is football, pre-recorded or starting halfway through. Even lower priority is the guest and master bedrooms. I typically watch YouTube premium, and I also have a Plex server setup for some ripped movies, etc. We don't channel surf - well, occasionally visitors do but I'm not going to optimize for visitors. They can channel surf ACTUAL live TV from the antenna on any TV in the house if they want.


It's the 'stuff' that matters. I accumulate a lot of 'stuff' on the Recast and my TiVos. Very acceptable quality. For football, the Recast is soft. If you are simply time shifting the football, TCL's Roku TVs add a couple hour buffer by attaching a USB stick. Image quality is great and the guide data is PSIP so you do not need anything except an antenna. Add an ISP and you get all that Roku brings to the table. I have a couple of these in my home. We put one at my in-laws (they do not have an ISP or a landline) and one at my sister's camp (they do not even have reliable cell service at camp). Awesome television for antenna reception. Highly recommended.



Saturn said:


> Bad picture quality is probably a deal breaker, for me. I have a really nice 1080p TV I watch football on, and any artifacts or resolution issues would drive me crazy.


I didn't say it was bad. I said it wasn't good. There is a lot of spectrum between the two. I just do not like to watch sports via the Recast.



Saturn said:


> What don't you like about HDHomeRun?


Mostly the software. Don't want to pay a fee to use their DVR software and don't love Plex for Live TV. I have had reception issues with some channels via the HDHR that I do not see on the Recast or TiVos. I have a Plex Pass and use Plex for media, but there are better options for Live TV.



Saturn said:


> OTA solves the issues that Hulu + Netflix does not. (honestly I'd rather dump Hulu). I have a fantastic antenna and get all the stations in at a signal strength strong enough to need attenuators.


I would not be in a hurry to dump TiVo. I would be interested to learn more about the 'stuff' your wife watches.


----------



## Saturn

wizwor said:


> I would not be in a hurry to dump TiVo. I would be interested to learn more about the 'stuff' your wife watches.


Prime time TV - dramas and such. I couldn't tell you the channels/times, but I suspect the 3-4 tuners of the Bolt occasionally are actually useful. And the Olympics every couple of years.


----------



## Saturn

I should note that my current setup (TiVo Bolt w/lifetime + 3 TiVo minis) costs me $0 per month and I intend to keep it that way. I don't mind upfront costs, but for whatever reason monthly subscriptions drive me crazy*. I have cable Internet, so no need for anything exotic.

* Yes, I realize this sometimes doesn't make sense, particularly if the upfront costs don't pay for themselves over time, but that hasn't yet been the case, despite paying TiVo 3 times to transfer my "lifetime" sub (S1 -> S3 -> Bolt).


----------



## wizwor

tapokata said:


> Tablo is a planetary videosystem, and as the Tablo is more platform independent, works independent of the streaming platform used. That said, it's slow to tune changing stations, and is not as snappy as others for Channel Surfing. It can stream to up to six screens at the same time, independent of recording, as the transcoding occurs as the recording is made. If the SD video quality doesn't bother you, it's a pretty good choice, although not as tightly integrated as others.


I love this description of the Tablo TV DVR. It's spot on. I would only add that, with their subscription service, you get out of home viewing.


----------



## wizwor

Saturn said:


> Prime time TV - dramas and such. I couldn't tell you the channels/times, but I suspect the 3-4 tuners of the Bolt occasionally are actually useful. And the Olympics every couple of years.


For the dramas, the Recast is a great choice. I think the Recast would be soft for some of the Olympic events.

The Olympics were the very first thing I watched after installing a DB8 in my home. The amazing quality of the hockey games convinced me that OTA was the best option for me. Nothing wrong with plugging a FTV Stick into a TCL Roku TV ;-)


----------



## wizwor

Saturn said:


> I should note that my current setup (TiVo Bolt w/lifetime + 3 TiVo minis) costs me $0 per month and I intend to keep it that way. I don't mind upfront costs, but for whatever reason monthly subscriptions drive me crazy*. I have cable Internet, so no need for anything exotic.
> 
> * Yes, I realize this sometimes doesn't make sense, particularly if the upfront costs don't pay for themselves over time, but that hasn't yet been the case, despite paying TiVo 3 times to transfer my "lifetime" sub (S1 -> S3 -> Bolt).


Same boat. Check out the TCL Roku televisions. Just what you will love. I'm going to replace my 60" LG plasma with a 75-90" TCL Roku TV.


----------



## WhenenRome

mdavej said:


> Lots of great points. But I never said any of what you quoted. I've never even seen a Tablo. I'm in no position to make any judgements about its picture quality.


I'm so sorry, mdavej - I obviously did something wrong with my quoting. I'm correcting it right now.


----------



## dadrepus

Thunderclap said:


> HDHomeRun with my Plex server is my backup. It works pretty well.


Same here. I also have this as a backup. Works OK but I really need to upgrade my Plex server if it is to be my primary. Using an old Mac mini and it can get a little sluggish and cannot pump out 4k. But as a backup for OTA it works fine.


----------



## HerronScott

mdavej said:


> - Not sure what Vudu has to do with OTA DVR functionality, but it's true Amazon has no Vudu app. Last time I checked, Tivo didn't have a Vudu app either. In any case, I easily side loaded it on my stick, and 4k works fine.


TiVo has had a Vudu app since October/November 2014 (we bought our Roamio in October 2015). When was the last time that you checked? 

TiVo Winter Update to Feature Amazon, Vudu, and Mobile Improvements

Scott


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## spiderpumpkin

I'm seriously thinking about trying Channels Plus with TV Everywhere and HDHomeRun. I like how it works with HDHomerun tuners, and Channels TV Everywhere integrates cable providers and streaming providers into one lineup that can be recorded and managed. Not to mention that I can have tons of storage with a NAS. If I get this all set up and working I may ditch Tivo down the road.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Tivo was like Channels and could integrate OTA and streaming providers into the same channel lineup to browse and record?


----------



## jcthorne

Would it be possible to auto transfer and transcode content from a Tivo to a Plex installation such that all Tivo recordings show up in a Plex library? I know kmttg has some level of automation but can it handle auto renaming and placement? Still, even if I got this to work, it would be hours after a show ends before it would show up in Plex so useless for evening news or other daily local shows.


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## mdavej

HerronScott said:


> TiVo has had a Vudu app since October/November 2014 (we bought our Roamio in October 2015). When was the last time that you checked?
> 
> TiVo Winter Update to Feature Amazon, Vudu, and Mobile Improvements
> 
> Scott


Doh! I guess that really was the last time I checked. Is it 4k HDR with Atmos, the main complaint of the OP?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

spiderpumpkin said:


> I'm seriously thinking about trying Channels Plus with TV Everywhere and HDHomeRun. I like how it works with HDHomerun tuners, and Channels TV Everywhere integrates cable providers and streaming providers into one lineup that can be recorded and managed. Not to mention that I can have tons of storage with a NAS. If I get this all set up and working I may ditch Tivo down the road.
> 
> Wouldn't it be wonderful if Tivo was like Channels and could integrate OTA and streaming providers into the same channel lineup to browse and record?


I'm looking at that too. Apparently the HD HomeRun box that supports cable, Prime 6, is not yet available. The website promises it in 2019, so we may see it sometime between now and December 25th.

Last year I helped someone else set up a basic OTA solution with the Connect Duo, and it worked like magic. Thanks to posts here I've learned of Channels, and that takes it to a whole new level.

Channels looks better than the HD HomeRun DVR solution, but I'll compare them again as the date approaches for my next annual renewal of TiVo service. I could just upgrade the hard disk on my Lifetime TiVo box to replace the annual service box instead. Just depends how the whole pre-roll advertising thing shakes out I guess.


----------



## mdavej

The main thing I think when reading this thread is how much it sucks having to go back to old technology to get a workable solution because Tivo is forcing our hand. I ran a Windows Media Center DVR with HD HomeRun Primes (and Cetons) nearly a decade ago. It worked better than Tivo does today, until they switched to a Rovi guide. But it was a pain having so many different components to maintain, hence my switch to Tivo. Fast forward to today, now Tivo will soon be full of forced ads, taking them back off the table of acceptable solutions. I may as well drag my old WMC system back out and plug in my old Primes again.

@pokemon, don't hold your breath on the 6-tuner. Silicon Dust has been promising it for at least 4 years now (HDHomeRun DVR). It's never going to happen. Just get two Primes or one old 6-tuner Ceton. I still have a couple of 6 and 4 tuner Cetons in my closet.

There is no comparison between Channels and HD HomeRun's DVR. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a tricycle. The moment you pull up the HD HomeRun guide, you'll want to throw a hammer at your TV. Don't even bother.

Question for those seeking alternatives. Would you still keep Tivo if there were no pre-roll ads, but ads in the grid guide instead?


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## wombat94

I'm going full steam ahead with Channels DVR with TVEverywhere and HDHomerun on Fios. The only thing I have to decide is whether I want to use Cablecard with a HDHomerun Prime3 or get a HDHomerun Connect.

The TVEverywhere "tuner" for Channels with Verizon Fios gives me all channels that I watch/record regularly except for 8. Six of those are local OTA stations and two are History Channel and HBO - both of which have their own streaming apps with all of their content libraries available so I don't really need live TV/DVR for those.

I may very well never be hit by the preroll ads (I'm still on TE3 and don't intend to upgrade), but for me this whole incident has opened my eyes to the state of the art outside of Tivo. I've been using channels since Friday and I am impressed. So far I'm only using the TVEverywhere for Fios, but I really like the experience. 

To me, I don't see it as a significant step backward. I like the video server/client model - that's what I've been doing with my Roamio Pro in the wiring closet and Minis at the TVs for years. 

In many ways, what Channels has achieved with their TVEverywhere client seems like the next generation and a model for 3rd party DVRs in the age of IPTV and streaming.


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## davezatz

Wish HDHomeRun would confirm their 6-tuner CableCARD network device is still coming. Also hoping TiVo rethinks this nonsense.


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## manhole

spiderpumpkin said:


> I'm seriously thinking about trying Channels Plus with TV Everywhere and HDHomeRun. I like how it works with HDHomerun tuners, and Channels TV Everywhere integrates cable providers and streaming providers into one lineup that can be recorded and managed. Not to mention that I can have tons of storage with a NAS. If I get this all set up and working I may ditch Tivo down the road.
> 
> Wouldn't it be wonderful if Tivo was like Channels and could integrate OTA and streaming providers into the same channel lineup to browse and record?


I posted about this in another thread earlier today. I didn't see this thread which would have made more sense to post in. So far I am very impressed with the commercial skip and overall experience of the Channels DVR. I'm hoping they don't get shut down for allowing recording and commercial skipping of the streaming feeds because it works great.

Does anyone know what the procedure would be for pairing the cable card from my TiVo to a HDHomeRun? Would I have to involve Comcast?


----------



## JoeKustra

mdavej said:


> Question for those seeking alternatives. Would you still keep Tivo if there were no pre-roll ads, but ads in the grid guide instead?


I don't care about the ads so much as having a BSC. Gold star ads & pause ads never bothered me either. I'm afraid that TiVo will find a really slow server and it will get slower as more users get the software.


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## chiguy50

As a Comcast customer, I think my first preference would be to resort to renting their Xi5/Xi6 wireless STB's with cloud DVR. I would consider it a decided step back in convenience and technology and would have to swallow additional fees, but that looks like the best alternative for my use case at present.

FTR: I don't use TiVo for streaming; for that I have dedicated media streamers (principally Nvidia Shield TV, Amazon Fire TV 4K, and Roku Ultra).


----------



## Saturn

Tablo is looking pretty good. I could probably make something work with an HDHomeRun and Channels Plus, but that seems like 1) more work and 2) requires a subscription. I'm not super keen on paying for a subscription. I understand guide data costs money, but everything else is just tuning, dumping video to a hard drive and making it available on several platforms.


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## Pokemon_Dad

manhole said:


> Does anyone know what the procedure would be for pairing the cable card from my TiVo to a HDHomeRun? Would I have to involve Comcast?


Your options include the Comcast Xfinity CableCARD Activation/Pairing web page or call the Comcast CableCARD hotline. I'm sure HD HomeRun provides instructions on bringing up the appropriate screen for pairing.

Only the HD HomeRun Prime series supports CableCARDs. The Prime 6 is not yet available, but older Prime versions are available used on eBay and elsewhere.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> @pokemon, don't hold your breath on the 6-tuner. Silicon Dust has been promising it for at least 4 years now (HDHomeRun DVR). It's never going to happen. Just get two Primes or one old 6-tuner Ceton. I still have a couple of 6 and 4 tuner Cetons in my closet.


You seem to have tagged another Pokemon. Hope that's worth some points if you're playing GO!  We both joined way before that game existed though.

Worrisome that they've been promising the Prime 6 since 2015. The website does promise it's "Coming 2019", but if that fails to appear I do see plenty of the older versions on eBay new and used.


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## tommiet

Amazon is also beta testing commercial skip now. Hope to see it soon. Another nail for the TiVo coffin.


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## Pokemon_Dad

Saturn said:


> Tablo is looking pretty good. I could probably make something work with an HDHomeRun and Channels Plus, but that seems like 1) more work and 2) requires a subscription. I'm not super keen on paying for a subscription. I understand guide data costs money, but everything else is just tuning, dumping video to a hard drive and making it available on several platforms.


You're probably right that Tablo is easier. But I just want to point out that all these services have basic levels that don't require a subscription. I set up an HD HomeRun OTA box for someone, and they use a different free phone app to see what's on. Channels has a free non-Plus tier too. But if you want integrated detailed guide data, Tablo charges for it just like the others. Click the TV Guide Data Service tab here for pricing: https://us-store.tablotv.com/co...


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## Lurker1

Pokemon_Dad said:


> But if you want integrated detailed guide data, Tablo charges for it just like the others. Click the TV Guide Data Service tab here for pricing: https://us-store.tablotv.com/co...


Thanks for the link. I noticed this: "Your Tablo subscription is tied to YOU, not a specific device. You can change or upgrade to a new Tablo DVR and keep your existing subscription." This is very compelling. One lifetime subscription and I am good forever, even through future technology changes like ATSC 3.0 (as long as Tablo stays in business?). I have paid for TiVo lifetime three times already, and each new software update removes features I loved and replaces them with bugs and crap I don't want.


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## Pokemon_Dad

Lurker1 said:


> Thanks for the link. I noticed this: "Your Tablo subscription is tied to YOU, not a specific device. You can change or upgrade to a new Tablo DVR and keep your existing subscription." This is very compelling. One lifetime subscription and I am good forever, even through future technology changes like ATSC 3.0 (as long as Tablo stays in business?). I have paid for TiVo lifetime three times already, and each new software update removes features I loved and replaces them with bugs and crap I don't want.


A Channels Plus subscription is not tied to one piece of hardware either. TiVo Lifetime subs can be transferred to new units or new owners too, or at least I hope they still can be. But I think the more compelling argument here is that Tablo will be easier. At a certain point you want to just enjoy watching TV, and not be a Maker all the time. Can't help myself though... still looking at Channels and HomeRun.


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## tenthplanet

Remember most Tivo alternatives don't do cable.


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## krkaufman

Pokemon_Dad said:


> TiVo Lifetime subs can be transferred to new units or new owners


The All-In service plan goes with the box, so can be transferred with the box to a new owner.

All-In service is NOT typically transferable to another box, outside special promos or warranty claims.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

krkaufman said:


> The All-In service plan goes with the box, so can be transferred with the box to a new owner.
> 
> All-In service is NOT typically transferable to another box, outside special promos or warranty claims.


Got it. Lifetime but not All-In.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

I installed the Channels dvr server on my extra Mac Mini, signed up for the free 30 day Plus trial, and scanned the TV Everywhere Xfinity channels. I got 128 channels found including many that aren't even on my Tivo or X1 box.

Some new ones that stood out are CourtTV, CNN International, ConTV, Nasa, Cheddar News, Cheddar Esports, Dove Channel, RevN, 4 Adult Swim Channels, a bunch of misc news networks, W Weather, etc.

A good share of the main cable channels are all there and many of them also have a duplicate pacific channel feed with different shows and or start times. Also, most of the Xfinity IP only channels are included.

I don't have an Apple TV, Fire TV or other way to watch the shows on my tv but I do have the iOS app to try it out. So far, channels quickly tune, faster than Tivo, and setting up recordings and passes works perfectly. I can also view the guide, playback, record and watch using the dvr server app on my Mac mini screen.

Next, I need to try adding a couple trials of streaming services like Youtube TV, etc to see if the Channels DVR can record those.

Also, may buy a cheap HDHomeRun and antenna to see how that all works.

This is kind of fun.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

tenthplanet said:


> Remember most Tivo alternatives don't do cable.


Looking at these alternatives is indeed causing many of us to think about going further, and finally cutting the cord! Like maybe just local OTA plus live TV streaming for the few cable channels we want to keep (options include Channels TV Everywhere, or a major service like Hulu + Live TV, YouTube TV, fuboTV, etc.). Having said that, the easiest transition would be to go with a HomeRun Prime box as that supports a CableCARD. There are many on eBay, and new model is promised this year.


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## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> ... the easiest transition would be to go with a HomeRun Prime box as that supports a CableCARD. There are many on eBay, and new model is promised this year.


Problem with the Prime is that the only software DVR that can record copy protected channels with it is the long defunct Windows Media Center. Not Channels, not Silicon Dust's own DVR software, not any other software besides WMC.


----------



## wizwor

mdavej said:


> Problem with the Prime is that the only software DVR that can record copy protected channels with it is the long defunct Windows Media Center. Not Channels, not Silicon Dust's own DVR software, not any other software besides WMC.


How to Download Hulu, Netflix Movies and More | Download Streaming Videos?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> Problem with the Prime is that the only software DVR that can record copy protected channels with it is the long defunct Windows Media Center. Not Channels, not Silicon Dust's own DVR software, not any other software besides WMC.


I guess while we're waiting to see if they finally release that with the new Prime box, the solution is TV Everywhere. Channels and Silicon Dust both support that now.



wizwor said:


> How to Download Hulu, Netflix Movies and More | Download Streaming Videos?


Thanks! A solution for streaming services similar to what we're discussing above.


----------



## swyman18

The Channels DVR setup looks intriguing. For anyone who has tried it, how is the picture and sound quality of the recorded streaming channels when viewing on a TV and not just a mobile device?

Since these appear to be just “scraping” the web feed, I immediately think poor quality when viewing on a larger screen.


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## spiderpumpkin

swyman18 said:


> The Channels DVR setup looks intriguing. For anyone who has tried it, how is the picture and sound quality of the recorded streaming channels when viewing on a TV and not just a mobile device?
> 
> Since these appear to be just "scraping" the web feed, I immediately think poor quality when viewing on a larger screen.


I've watched a few things on my 27" 5k iMac by accessing the server page player and videos look great full screen.

I've also set the Channels DVR folder inside the same folder that my PyTivo uses to serve videos back to my Tivo. So far the Channels DVR files that I've viewed back on my Tivo look great.

Here's the details for a show from the server. I'm just letting the default settings do their work on the server but there are some encoding settings that can be changed.


----------



## HerronScott

krkaufman said:


> All-In service is NOT typically transferable to another box, outside special promos or warranty claims.





Pokemon_Dad said:


> Got it. Lifetime but not All-In.


Neither Lifetime or All-in service is transferrable to another TiVo unit outside of special promotions or warranty claims. The first time TiVo had a promo for this was with the S3 OLED where is was $199 to transfer (which we did for 2 S1's to 2 S3 OLEDs as TiVo was not selling Lifetime at that time). In the past few years, they've done special promos for older TiVo's where you buy a new TiVo from them and can transfer the Lifetime from your old TiVo for $99 which we took advantage to move my son from an HD to a Bolt.

Scott


----------



## HerronScott

mdavej said:


> Doh! I guess that really was the last time I checked. Is it 4k HDR with Atmos, the main complaint of the OP?


Its supports 4k UHD + HDR on the Bolt but not Atmos. I thought I read that the new Edge supports Atmos so possibly the Vudu client for it will get updated.

Vudu UHD - Compatible Devices List - Vudu Forums

Scott


----------



## mdavej

wizwor said:


> How to Download Hulu, Netflix Movies and More | Download Streaming Videos?


The discussion shifted from OTA and streaming to cable card. We're talking about recording QAM cable channels like Tivo does.



Pokemon_Dad said:


> I guess while we're waiting to see if they finally release that with the new Prime box.


I really doubt it. We've been asking Silicon Dust for that for years. Their CEO has said in interviews that their company would be ruined if they got sued because somebody managed to break their encryption. So it's probably never going to happen. WMC is still the only solution for recording QAM cable (besides Tivo and cable company DVRs) that's not marked copy-freely.


----------



## Aero 1

swyman18 said:


> Since these appear to be just "scraping" the web feed, I immediately think poor quality when viewing on a larger screen.


its not scraping the web feed, its authenticating and delivering the actual, highest (depending on your connection) feed from the provider.


----------



## krkaufman

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Got it. Lifetime but not All-In.


They're the same thing.


----------



## reneg

spiderpumpkin said:


> Next, I need to try adding a couple trials of streaming services like Youtube TV, etc to see if the Channels DVR can record those.
> 
> Also, may buy a cheap HDHomeRun and antenna to see how that all works.
> 
> This is kind of fun.


You can see which TV Everywhere channels are available with OTT Streaming services here: thestreamable.com/tv-everywhere-apps


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

krkaufman said:


> They're the same thing.


They seem to have made more offers to transfer Lifetime from old boxes purchased when it was called Lifetime. Anyway, back on point, this whole conversation is making me that much more interested in leaving TiVo for OTA and streaming.


----------



## tarheelblue32

tommiet said:


> Amazon is also beta testing commercial skip now. Hope to see it soon. Another nail for the TiVo coffin.


So Amazon DVRs are adding commercial skip at the same time TiVo DVRs are adding in commercials. How ironic.


----------



## krkaufman

Pokemon_Dad said:


> They seem to have made more offers to transfer Lifetime from old boxes purchased when it was called Lifetime.


It has nothing to do with the service label, as they'd transfer a "Lifetime" or "All-In" plan from an eligible box to a newly purchased BOLT (specific to the last promo); the promos are just targeted at older boxes (most of which would more likely have "Lifetime" service plans, rather than "All-In," owing to when the box+plan was acquired).


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## NashGuy

mdavej said:


> Problem with the Prime is that the only software DVR that can record copy protected channels with it is the long defunct Windows Media Center. Not Channels, not Silicon Dust's own DVR software, not any other software besides WMC.


For folks who are considering buying an HDHomeRun Prime CableCARD tuner:

Do you (or anyone else) know which channels are copy-protected on each of the major QAM cable TV providers (Comcast, Charter, Verizon, Cox, Altice)?

I assume that premium channels like HBO and Showtime are copy-protected on all providers. I want to say that I've read that those are the only channels that are copy-protected on Comcast but I may have that wrong...


----------



## wombat94

NashGuy said:


> For folks who are considering buying an HDHomeRun Prime CableCARD tuner:
> 
> Do you (or anyone else) know which channels are copy-protected on each of the major QAM cable TV providers (Comcast, Charter, Verizon, Cox, Altice)?
> 
> I assume that premium channels like HBO and Showtime are copy-protected on all providers. I want to say that I've read that those are the only channels that are copy-protected on Comcast but I may have that wrong...


I can only speak to what I have (Verizon FiOS):

FiOS have the CCI copy protection on on the premium networks and the Fox owned cable networks. Broadcast Fox channels do not have copy protection enabled.


FX HD (EAST)
Fox Sports 1 HD
BTN HD
Fox Business Ne
Fox News HD
National Geo HD
Nat Geo Wild HD
FXX HD


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

NashGuy said:


> For folks who are considering buying an HDHomeRun Prime CableCARD tuner:
> 
> Do you (or anyone else) know which channels are copy-protected on each of the major QAM cable TV providers (Comcast, Charter, Verizon, Cox, Altice)?
> 
> I assume that premium channels like HBO and Showtime are copy-protected on all providers. I want to say that I've read that those are the only channels that are copy-protected on Comcast but I may have that wrong...


Your TiVo can help you research this: https://tivoidp.tivo.com/t...


----------



## wombat94

I'm impressed enough after spending the weekend with the Channels Plus DVR that I went ahead and bought an HDHomeRun Connect Quatro OTA tuner today.

Best Buy had a deal of $129.99 for the HDHR and a 6 month Plex Pass digital code. (Net total of $40.00 savings).

Plus, I found a clearance deal at Lowes for a ClearStream Flex antenna for $15.99.

I'm looking forward to setting up the HDHR tonight and really exercising Channels Plus.

The only downside is that I have just one Apple TV at this point and will need to buy another 4K Apple TV, but I'm hoping I can sell the two Mini Vox's that I have for enough to cover most or all of that cost.

This is definitely not a solution for everyone, but for me I am really liking getting all of our viewing back onto one box. (Albeit with different apps).

Tivo never delivered on their promise of a robust streaming app platform - whatever the reason. 

I recognize that it is just business with the pre-roll adds, but I'm willing (eager) to take on a bit of extra complexity on the back-end with Channels for the simplicity and ease of use (and WAF) on the front-end.


----------



## waterchange

chiguy50 said:


> As a Comcast customer, I think my first preference would be to resort to renting their Xi5/Xi6 wireless STB's with cloud DVR. I would consider it a decided step back in convenience and technology and would have to swallow additional fees, but that looks like the best alternative for my use case at present.
> 
> FTR: I don't use TiVo for streaming; for that I have dedicated media streamers (principally Nvidia Shield TV, Amazon Fire TV 4K, and Roku Ultra).


Curious to understand what the use case is that Comcast's cloud DVR platform might be a better choice than TiVo. I read somewhere that commercials are forced (i.e. you can't skip through them) which seems like a complete deal breaker if true.


----------



## mdavej

NashGuy said:


> For folks who are considering buying an HDHomeRun Prime CableCARD tuner:
> 
> Do you (or anyone else) know which channels are copy-protected on each of the major QAM cable TV providers (Comcast, Charter, Verizon, Cox, Altice)?
> 
> I assume that premium channels like HBO and Showtime are copy-protected on all providers. I want to say that I've read that those are the only channels that are copy-protected on Comcast but I may have that wrong...


I ran Primes for several years with Charter (Spectrum). Most channels were copy freely. Premiums and some sports channels (ESPN, etc.) were copy once. But I didn't really care because I could record everything with WMC regardless.

I've read that most other providers besides Verizon and Spectrum copy protect almost everything. So a Prime on anything except WMC is useless for recording if you have one of those other providers.

I feel like I'm in a time warp, having this exact same discussion almost a decade ago.

I'm sure Channels app is awesome, but I have a hard time paying a fee when my lifetime Tivo and Recast are free. So I have no compelling reason to pay for anything or go back to my old WMC system. More power to those who are willing to pay for several components and services and set up and maintain them. I'd rather keep it simple. So Recast is perfect for me. Cable channels are a non-issue since I cut the cord. I couldn't care less about cable cards and copy protection.


----------



## chiguy50

waterchange said:


> Curious to understand what the use case is that Comcast's cloud DVR platform might be a better choice than TiVo. I read somewhere that commercials are forced (i.e. you can't skip through them) which seems like a complete deal breaker if true.


Not better, just the best alternative to TiVo if I had to choose one. (In fact, I pointedly labelled it a step back.)

I have not heard anything about forced ads on their cloud DVR, and I would be surprised (and quite disappointed) if that is true. I do know that this is the case for some of their VOD offerings, but that's a different critter.


----------



## Lurker1

TiVo Ted just announced that pre-roll ads are a "feature" and will NOT be coming to TE3. My panicked search for a TiVo alternative can be tabled for now, to be resumed when TE3 becomes End of Life.


----------



## NashGuy

wombat94 said:


> I can only speak to what I have (Verizon FiOS):
> 
> FiOS have the CCI copy protection on on the premium networks and the Fox owned cable networks. Broadcast Fox channels do not have copy protection enabled.
> 
> 
> FX HD (EAST)
> Fox Sports 1 HD
> BTN HD
> Fox Business Ne
> Fox News HD
> National Geo HD
> Nat Geo Wild HD
> FXX HD


When Verizon FiOS contracts get renewed with Fox and/or Disney, I would expect that FX, FXX, Nat Geo and Nat Geo Wild would cease to be copy-protected since Fox sold those networks to Disney months ago. Still though, looks like an HDHomeRun Prime CableCARD tuner might not work for some folks on Verizon FiOS, leaving their only straightforward solutions being TiVo and the FiOS DVR. (However, the new feature in Channels Plus that allows recording of TV Everywhere streams might obviate the need for those users to record the Fox cable channels directly from FiOS via CableCARD.)


----------



## NashGuy

WhenenRome said:


> Channels is one of the few things I've never checked out directly. I looked at their website yesterday, along with the "TV Everywhere" site that Channels links you to... and you know, they're never really clear on what they are / what it does / how it works... It's kind of like bad labels & poor packaging on a shelf product at the store - where you look at it, can't understand exactly what it is, so you continue shopping for something you CAN understand.
> 
> So I have to ask you, or anyone else who might know: What exactly is it... a headless Tivo / an alternative to PLEX DVR? Does it work with any cable provider or is it limited? Is I see it mentions OTT services, but HOW does it work with them? I see HD Homerun mentioned on their site, but when they're also mentioning OTT services, it gets confusing.
> 
> The one solid takeaway I could get: They were crystal clear that it doesn't work with ROKU!


Channels has a few levels of features/functionality.

Level 1: Buy an HDHomeRun tuner(s) -- either OTA or CableCARD -- and connect it to your home network's router (preferably by ethernet). Then use the Channels app on Apple TV, Fire TV, and/or Android TV devices to enjoy live TV with program guide info and trick play (pause, rewind, FF live TV).

Level 2: Subscribe to their Channel Plus service ($8/mo or $80/yr) and get DVR features added inside the Channels app. To do this, you'll need to run the Channels DVR software on a Mac, PC or NAS connected to your home network's router (preferably by ethernet). This comes with a 30-day free trial and lets you download the Channels app for free. (If you don't subscribe to Channels Plus, and only want to stick with the Level 1 functionality described above, then you must purchase the Channels app. It's a one-time cost of $25 for Apple TV. Don't know about Fire TV or Android TV.)

Level 3: If you subscribe to a traditional or streaming cable channel package service (e.g. Xfinity TV, Spectrum TV, FiOS TV, PS Vue, YouTube TV, AT&T TV, etc.), you can use your credentials from that service to enable the new Channel Plus "TV Everywhere" feature. This will run (I think) on the same Mac, PC or NAS where the Channels DVR engine runs. It will use your credentials to log into the websites of all of the cable channels in your package which allow for live "TV Everywhere" streaming of their content via web browser. The DVR can set up recordings of those channels' live streams, regardless of whether your HDHomeRun tuner can access those channels via CableCARD. Actually, you don't even need a tuner at all in order to use the Channels DVR to record TV Everywhere streams! You might not use a tuner at all, or you might use an OTA tuner to record your locals from an antenna and use your cable service credentials to record those channels' live "TV Everywhere" streams to your own hard drive.


----------



## wombat94

NashGuy said:


> When Verizon FiOS contracts get renewed with Fox and/or Disney, I would expect that FX, FXX, Nat Geo and Nat Geo Wild would cease to be copy-protected since Fox sold those networks to Disney months ago. Still though, looks like an HDHomeRun Prime CableCARD tuner might not work for some folks on Verizon FiOS, leaving their only straightforward solutions being TiVo and the FiOS DVR. (However, the new feature in Channels Plus that allows recording of TV Everywhere streams might obviate the need for those users to record the Fox cable channels directly from FiOS via CableCARD.)


I can confirm that the TVEverywhere option for Fios DOES allow DVR of these channels... thus making the CCI bit copy protection no problem for Fios users. Even if you do use HDHR Prime with cablecard for the rest of your lineup, you can still add a TVEverywhere "tuner" to the DVR server and have access to recording those channels today.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Lurker1 said:


> TiVo Ted just announced that pre-roll ads are a "feature" and will NOT be coming to TE3. My panicked search for a TiVo alternative can be tabled for now, to be resumed when TE3 becomes End of Life.


That's great to hear and I plan to keep using my 3TB Tivo for years to come. I'm really liking Channels and will probably keep using it for additional high volume recording to a huge storage device. I'm going to buy a HDHomeRun OTA and antenna to add more to Channels.


----------



## wmcbrine

spiderpumpkin said:


> I installed the Channels dvr server on my extra Mac Mini, signed up for the free 30 day Plus trial, and scanned the TV Everywhere Xfinity channels. I got 128 channels found including many that aren't even on my Tivo or X1 box.


The extra channels -- the ones numbered 6700 and up -- everyone on Channels DVR gets for free, regardless of provider (although I think they only add them when you add a TV Everywhere provider).



> _A good share of the main cable channels are all there and many of them also have a duplicate pacific channel feed with different shows and or start times. Also, most of the Xfinity IP only channels are included_


Yeah, unfortunately some channels aren't available. CNN (non-International), for example, doesn't show up with either YouTubeTV or Xfinity, though it's in both their regular lineups. Per this chart, the only streaming service that activates it is PS Vue.



swyman18 said:


> The Channels DVR setup looks intriguing. For anyone who has tried it, how is the picture and sound quality of the recorded streaming channels when viewing on a TV and not just a mobile device?


The quality varies widely, because the quality of the source feeds varies. It goes directly to each channel's "TV Everywhere" feed, and not through the cable or streaming service, which is just used to authorize it. Some of these feeds don't look as good as, e.g., the YouTube TV version of the channel. But at least, AFAICT, Channels DVR doesn't make them any worse (by default -- you can set it to). Most are OK.



wombat94 said:


> The only downside is that I have just one Apple TV at this point and will need to buy another 4K Apple TV


If it's only for this, you might consider an Amazon Fire TV stick (it's cheaper).


----------



## WhenenRome

Yesterday, I decided to shop a few different multi-network OTT / Streaming TV services. We're currently using Spectrum TV Choice. But they recently made some changes to it (and gave a snooty CS response), which inspired me to shop around. I only tried out hands-on the ones that had most of my "top 10" channels available, and that offered DVR... We already have Tablo for OTA DVR, so I'm not giving heavy weight to local channels here:

*Sling:*
Tried the "Blue" package + Lifestyle + News add-ons, and DVR, which totals $40/month.
It gives you 3 streams - meaning 3 different devices can watch at the same time. 50 HOURS of cloud DVR. It also on-demand libraries for the channels in your package. It had 9 of my "top 10" channels (no Animal Planet).

The good: It's a great price. The OK: The UI & the guide. Sling has weird colors and makes use of them. The picture quality, it's alright - I've seen worse... The not so hot: You can't pause or rewind live TV on any channel. Different channels have different rules for DVR capability. It's not fun to keep track of things like that... The super weird: On some channels, like A&E, the programs in their on-demand libraries can be watched, but no rewind, fast-forward, not even Pause! And if you STOP the program and come back to it, there's no resume option: it goes back to the beginning.

Overall, it *feels* like a budget service... the look of its UI even makes you feel that way. The 50-hour limit on DVR would be no big deal if their on-demand content didn't have such bizarre inconsistencies. No pause? No way.

*YouTubeTV:*
The base service is $50/month. It had 8 or my top-10 (no A&E or VH1). The DVR has unlimited capacity, but has a limit on the amount of time a program can stay on their cloud: 9 months. Six streams can be viewed at one time, that's the best available out there.

The good: Picture quality is quite awesome. You CAN pause & rewind live TV. You can also have
six different account (gmail) profiles, each with their own DVR library. And a bonus here - for our LA TV market, it had every major local channel except CW (and keep in mind, CW's separate Roku app has all their programs & is free to use)... The OK: The UI & guide are decent, a little smoother & more attractive than Sling's. Not so hot: The price is pushing up there. If you do add-ons, it's going to get expensive... The weird: There's no option to record only NEW airings on the DVR. YT's response to that is, "but that's ok - we have no limit on capacity." True. But who wants to sift through reruns to "find" an episode of a show?

YT-TV has the best picture quality of the four services here - just a tiny bit better than the Spectrum app on Roku. Six streams, and the personalization of DVR lists & user profiles blows the competition out the water. If you don't care about the weird "record every episode" aspect, it's worth considering.

*FUBO:*
It's a sports-centric platform, but it actually had ALL 10 of my top-10 channels - the only OTT service to offer those outside of Spectrum's ala-carte TV Choice & AT&T Now's $100/month plan. I chose a $60/month "family plan" with over 75 channels and a 500-hour DVR with no time limitation. Three streams can be watched at one time.

The good: It actually has a LOT of channels. The DVR option is a worthy alternative to YouTube TV's. Most channels that I could see are able to pause & rewind live TV. The OK: The picture quality is limited to 720p - it's probably on-par with Sling. For sports, which is what Fubo focuses on, that's not a reason to get excited. The UI has a clean look and operates well... The not-so-hot: $60/month. The weird: It has what I call a "bizarro" on-screen guide, where the channels are at the top - and the TIMES are on the LEFT. Why? I don't know. Maybe they just wanted to be different. (However, if you use their web interface, it's a normal setup - which somehow makes it more weird.)

At this price, it's a better value than AT&T Now: More streams, less DVR limits. But it's "up there" compared to the competition. If the PQ could render better, and the guide setup be more intuitive (or at least have the option), $60/month might be worth it.

*Sprectrum TV Choice:*
This is what I'm subscribed to currently. You get all the locals for your area + 10 ala-carte channels of your choice, from a very good pool of networks, + Spectrum News, CSPAN networks, and anything else that would be part of a "basic" tier. The cloud DVR is a $5 add-on, and has a capacity of 50 *programs* - meaning that their time lengths aren't the capacity: You could have 50 episodes of Live PD at 3 hours each, or you could have 50 episodes of Mom at 30-minutes each. I'm on a promo rate right now, but the regular price will be $46/month ($40 + that wonderful "broadcast channel" fee, reportedly set to increase to $6 next month). And yes, you have to be a Spectrum internet customer to use this service.

The good: You pretty much choose what you want, and they seem to let you change the selected channels - I've done it twice in 18 months. The PQ is actually really good. The on-demand library is extensive, so the 50-program DVR limit won't bother too many people - especially if you have a separate OTA DVR experience running like we do (Tablo). The OK: While you can't pause or RW live TV, that's never an issue on any DVR recording or On-Demand program - and the on-demand library's commercials always amount to noticeably less than what is aired on live TV. The guide & UI are going through an upgrade right now, and it's a mixed bag. It LOOKS and operates better BUT... The weird: They inexplicably REMOVED features that made its experience competitive (see photo). The not at all hot: Their customer service response to those concerns has been lukewarm. On social media, they're supposed to be putting on their best face. But when they don't bother to even do that, it makes you think they REALLY don't give a crap.

For me personally, I'm still weighing the options here. My price is reduced by $13/month through March. I never like the idea of "price going up while the user experience goes DOWN. I don't need their OTA channels, since we have the Tablo. So will $45/month be worth it for 10 channels that I get to select? Would I be better off paying $5 more a month and lose 2 channels I like (YouTube)? Or even paying $15 more per month to get all the channels I like and then some? BUT this may be good for you. That's really why I posted all this - I hope it helps!


----------



## powrcow

NashGuy said:


> Do you (or anyone else) know which channels are copy-protected on each of the major QAM cable TV providers (Comcast, Charter, Verizon, Cox, Altice)?


Cox has all channels except locals set to 0x02 - Copy Once. For a TiVo, that means a recording can be made and you can offload ONLY using the Stream, and that offloading means the TiVo copy is deleted.


----------



## wombat94

wmcbrine said:


> If it's only for this, you might consider an Amazon Fire TV stick (it's cheaper).


It is mostly about making the experience consistent between the family room TV and the bedroom TV (WAF - and frankly for myself as well). Part of the attraction of Channels DVR for me at this point is to keep all of the non-physical media consumption on a single input on the TV. The rest of our streaming is through the Netflix, Amazon Prime and Vudu apps on the Apple TV.

I set up the HDHR Connect with antenna and I got most of my local channels, but signal strength and quality were so-so. A fair amount of pixelating and breaking up. Fortunately, I realized that the HDHR Connect can also tune Clear QAM... 5 minutes later, I have all of my locals from the Fios feed and I'm VERY happy.

I think with this, I can seriously consider ditching even my cablecard. Between TVE and the HDHR Connect, I've got solid recording of nearly everything that I need.


----------



## WhenenRome

If you use Channels DVR and access networks via TV Everywhere, does it still require an HD Homerun tuner?


----------



## Mikeguy

Lurker1 said:


> TiVo Ted just announced that pre-roll ads are a "feature" and will NOT be coming to TE3. My panicked search for a TiVo alternative can be tabled for now, to be resumed when TE3 becomes End of Life.


Don't you just love quotation marks?


----------



## wombat94

WhenenRome said:


> If you use Channels DVR and access networks via TV Everywhere, does it still require an HD Homerun tuner?


No it doesn't. TVEverywhere just accesses the online streams that are available with either OTT services like YouTubeTV or PS Vue or that you have access to with your cable service (like Comcast or Verizon).

One of the benefits to that as I see it is that you have effectively a huge number of tuners (as long as you have internet bandwidth)... I am in the process of testing the number of streams I can get recording at once with my Fios TVEverywhere and gigabit Fios service.


----------



## ncted

FubarJeb said:


> The Amazon customer fond4tech listed the following cons.
> https://www.amazon.com/Fire-TV-Recast-over-the-air-DVR-1TB-150-hours/dp/B074J1GPB8
> 
> -Program Guide only goes out a few days so your ability to set up future recordings for the first time stinks but remember there is no subscription fee so I am willing to try.


Just to correct this one point: The guide data is a full two weeks. That said, it is loaded on-demand, so it takes a few seconds when you go more than a couple of days out before the data shows up in the UI.


----------



## tenthplanet

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Looking at these alternatives is indeed causing many of us to think about going further, and finally cutting the cord! Like maybe just local OTA plus live TV streaming for the few cable channels we want to keep (options include Channels TV Everywhere, or a major service like Hulu + Live TV, YouTube TV, fuboTV, etc.). Having said that, the easiest transition would be to go with a HomeRun Prime box as that supports a CableCARD. There are many on eBay, and new model is promised this year.


Beware the cost of free standing internet, people who have come from cable bundles, have gotten a shock sometimes. As person who is technically a cord cutter let me just say...Don't get into OTA and streaming without testing the stuff for yourself, especially with Live streaming services. If you know what you want to watch vs. finding something to watch you'll be that much ahead.


----------



## reneg

wmcbrine said:


> Yeah, unfortunately some channels aren't available. CNN (non-International), for example, doesn't show up with either YouTubeTV or Xfinity, though it's in both their regular lineups. Per this chart, the only streaming service that activates it is PS Vue.


As with most things Xfinity, your mileage may vary. For me, CNN & CNNI show up under my Xfinity support under Channels DVR TV Everywhere support.


----------



## dishrich

Hey, just read over at DSLR, that Comcast has restored remote DVR functionality:
Re: Remote DVR programming via Xfinity app - Comcast XFINITY TV | DSLReports Forums
Maybe with this coming (back) it could make having a Comcast (X1) DVR more palatable to more Tivo folks. 

edit: also posted over at Comcast's own forum:
Solved: Re: I can no longer record shows remotely - Page 34 - Xfinity Help and Support Forums - 3006332


----------



## swyman18

I tried out Channels DVR, and I must say it’s better than I expected. I would really like to keep using it, but there are 2 items for me that make it a no-go. 

- I have Spectrum TV Choice and I was able to authenticate for all of my 10 chosen channels except for History Channel. I’m having a little trouble determining if Spectrum doesn’t allow TVEverywhere access, or if there is no live feed for that channel via TVE.

- No Premium channel support. I’m not sure if it’s just because HBO, Showtime, etc. don’t have live feeds on their TVE apps, or if Channels just chooses not to support it. 

Regarding the second point, I guess I’m still a little old school in that I like to surf around the movies that are airing. One of the things that sucked me into the Spectrum TV Choice option was the ability to add HBO, Showtime and STARZ all for $15 a month for 2 years. And I get those tons of linear channels for each that I always liked. 

Anyway, Channels DVR is certainly pretty neat. But for me, just not worth the extra $8 a month when I’ll still need to use the Spectrum TV app for History channel and my premiums. 

For now, I’ll stick with TVHeadEnd PVR with Kodi front end for OTA, and Spectrum TV app for the other stuff. 

For anyone who really likes to tinker, check out TVH. It’s not for the easily frustrated, but once you get it going and the EPG configured, it’s pretty cool. And the Kodi front-end works very well with it.


----------



## slowbiscuit

NashGuy said:


> Channels has a few levels of features/functionality.
> Level 3: If you subscribe to a traditional or streaming cable channel package service (e.g. Xfinity TV, Spectrum TV, FiOS TV, PS Vue, YouTube TV, AT&T TV, etc.), you can use your credentials from that service to enable the new Channel Plus "TV Everywhere" feature. This will run (I think) on the same Mac, PC or NAS where the Channels DVR engine runs. It will use your credentials to log into the websites of all of the cable channels in your package which allow for live "TV Everywhere" streaming of their content via web browser. The DVR can set up recordings of those channels' live streams, regardless of whether your HDHomeRun tuner can access those channels via CableCARD. Actually, you don't even need a tuner at all in order to use the Channels DVR to record TV Everywhere streams! You might not use a tuner at all, or you might use an OTA tuner to record your locals from an antenna and use your cable service credentials to record those channels' live "TV Everywhere" streams to your own hard drive.


This is the feature I'm curious about - so if you're on Comcast, say, you get all the channels in your package just like you do with the Roku app? And Channels will record all of them including premiums? How does Comcast allow this as part of TV Everywhere? Seems like something they wouldn't want users to do.

In any case it's easy to workaround any missing channels with an HDHomerun Prime and a Cablecard I guess.


----------



## NashGuy

slowbiscuit said:


> This is the feature I'm curious about - so if you're on Comcast, say, you get all the channels in your package just like you do with the Roku app?


Well, in the case of the Xfinity Stream app on Roku, you're getting the live channel streams directly from Comcast (i.e. Comcast IPTV service). In the case of the Channels app using their TV Everywhere feature, its using your Comcast user ID and password to fetch the live stream of each cable channel from their respective websites. But this will only work for those cable channels which offer TV Everywhere live streaming and which specifically have a deal in place with Comcast to allow their customers to access it. So it's likely that there would be at least *some* channels in your Comcast package that would not show up in the Channels app via TV Everywhere. (Although if you were getting those channels over QAM via CableCARD, directly from Comcast, that wouldn't really matter.)



slowbiscuit said:


> And Channels will record all of them including premiums? How does Comcast allow this as part of TV Everywhere? Seems like something they wouldn't want users to do.


Yes, Channels will record the live streaming channels delivered through their own websites. I've not read about any such live streams that Channels is able to display but unable to record, whether that's for basic cable channels or premium channels. If someone has knowledge of any such restrictions, perhaps they will reply to this with their experiences.

And, yes, you're right that it seems like this is something that Comcast wouldn't really want their customers doing because it means that they can avoid using Comcast's own X1 boxes and app, and also avoid seeing whatever ads that Comcast might be placing in those cable channels' feeds on their own cable system.

It also seems like something the cable networks themselves wouldn't like. The intent of their authenticated TV Everywhere feeds is really so that their paying customers can access their content "everywhere," while out of home and away from their cable box. They definitely don't intend for customers to *record* their live streams, giving them the ability to save a copy of that content indefinitely, with the ability to skip past ads. Their TV Everywhere sites/apps do have on-demand platforms, of course, but they force viewers to watch unskippable ads and content disappears from them after awhile, when the streaming rights are instead licensed to other services like Netflix, Hulu, etc.

I elaborate all of that to point out that we *could* see these cable networks somehow crack down to prevent Channels from doing what they're doing. On the one hand, we might see them implement some kind of technology that prevents the Channels DVR server from being able to log in and access the live stream for viewing and recording. Perhaps a simple Captcha "are you a human or a bot" challenge could do that. On the other hand, we might see them fire off legal threats at Channels to scare them away from what they're doing. Channels is a great little product/service but I think it's a one-man or two-man shop. Tiny operation. (I've wondered why Apple or someone hasn't bought them on the cheap and incorporated whatever bits of their software they find useful.)


----------



## sjsaleem

Aero 1 said:


> its not scraping the web feed, its authenticating and delivering the actual, highest (depending on your connection) feed from the provider.


I agree. The best thing is you get Unlimited DVR and you can add the shows to Plex and download on your device for offline viewing.


----------



## sjsaleem

WhenenRome said:


> If you use Channels DVR and access networks via TV Everywhere, does it still require an HD Homerun tuner?


You do not need HD Homerun tuner. You will need only if you want to watch and record OTA channels.


----------



## powrcow

From what I read on Channels DVR forum, the TV Everywhere recording option uses Chrome to capture the digital stream to disk. This doesn't require any frame capture or transcoding, hence no SiliconDust tuner required for TV Everywhere DVR. So it's not unlike a TiVo, just that it doesn't need the demodulator before it gets to the digital video stream.

Is the above correct? Pretty slick implementation.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

krkaufman said:


> It has nothing to do with the service label, as they'd transfer a "Lifetime" or "All-In" plan from an eligible box to a newly purchased BOLT (specific to the last promo); the promos are just targeted at older boxes (most of which would more likely have "Lifetime" service plans, rather than "All-In," owing to when the box+plan was acquired).


Thanks, all your information is helpful, and I appreciate your correcting and clarifying on this topic which will greatly assist others. Personally I would only be selling my boxes with All-In transferred to the new owners, and having purchased one used v2 Mini on eBay I know the transfer is likely to go smoothly.

Back on topic, based on what we've learned about the pre-roll ads on the other thread, as I posted there I'm likely to consolidate everything onto an upgraded Roamio Pro and v2 Minis all on TE3 for now, but also play with the forthcoming TiVo app for Roku/Fire/Android in one room where I'll also be experimenting with alternative apps like Channels in various cable and OTA configurations here.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

tenthplanet said:


> Beware the cost of free standing internet, people who have come from cable bundles, have gotten a shock sometimes. As person who is technically a cord cutter let me just say...Don't get into OTA and streaming without testing the stuff for yourself, especially with Live streaming services. If you know what you want to watch vs. finding something to watch you'll be that much ahead.


Thanks, I plan to experiment with many solutions and services here before switching. Currently with Comcast we pay $60 in a "Double Play" package with TV, and I have my own modem and router. I expect that could go up to almost $100 outside of the bundle, yes? But even after adding another streaming service to get Live TV we'd still be paying less than we pay Comcast, and as a bonus we could sell off the TiVo stuff. It's still no bargain thanks to Xfinity pricing, but looking for alternative ISPs is another thread all by itself.


----------



## swyman18

slowbiscuit said:


> This is the feature I'm curious about - so if you're on Comcast, say, you get all the channels in your package just like you do with the Roku app? And Channels will record all of them including premiums? How does Comcast allow this as part of TV Everywhere? Seems like something they wouldn't want users to do.
> 
> In any case it's easy to workaround any missing channels with an HDHomerun Prime and a Cablecard I guess.


From what I could tell, Channels does not support premiums (HBO, Showtime, STARZ). If anyone sees otherwise, please let me know as I would definitely give it another try.

At least with Spectrum anyway, I didn't see any of those on the list that it was attempting to authenticate.


----------



## swyman18

This may have already been confirmed, but per a sticky on the Channels DVR forum, Premiums are not supported. Also, channels owned by A&E Networks are not supported because they don’t offer a live stream via TVE. 

So that confirms why History Channel is not included.


----------



## mdavej

swyman18 said:


> From what I could tell, Channels does not support premiums (HBO, Showtime, STARZ). If anyone sees otherwise, please let me know as I would definitely give it another try.
> 
> At least with Spectrum anyway, I didn't see any of those on the list that it was attempting to authenticate.


Curious why you would ever bother recording premiums in the first place. Typically their entire catalog is available on-demand for years on end.

Thanks to streaming, I no longer need to record premiums or other commercial-free content like PBS.


----------



## wizwor

mdavej said:


> Curious why you would ever bother recording premiums in the first place. Typically their entire catalog is available on-demand for years on end.
> 
> Thanks to streaming, I no longer need to record premiums or other commercial-free content like PBS.


Unless you have no internet connection or there are problems with your connection or...


----------



## chiguy50

mdavej said:


> Curious why you would ever bother recording premiums in the first place. Typically their entire catalog is available on-demand for years on end.
> 
> Thanks to streaming, I no longer need to record premiums or other commercial-free content like PBS.


Myself, I have OP's set to record new shows for the programs I follow on the premium channels even though I usually wind up streaming them for the better A/V quality. My reasoning is that I like having a unified listing in My Shows of what I have yet to watch (including movies). Whether I watch them from the TiVo or via streaming media device, I then delete the My Shows entry. This works for me and my OCD, but YMMV.


----------



## swyman18

mdavej said:


> Curious why you would ever bother recording premiums in the first place. Typically their entire catalog is available on-demand for years on end.
> 
> Thanks to streaming, I no longer need to record premiums or other commercial-free content like PBS.


I figured someone would say that. Believe it or not, every so often I will come across a movie on one of the their linear channels that is not part of their on-demand catalog.

For a while, I subscribed to HBO and Showtime via Prime Channels and they provided a handful of live feeds for each and you could watch them via the Prime Video app. Every so often, I would come across a movie that was in progress that I would be interested in viewing later, but I couldn't find it in their catalog. Mostly this seemed to be the case with Showtime.

So, I know a lot of folks say that the linear feeds have no value for the premiums. Not the case for me.


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## swyman18

Right now, I just noticed an example of what I was talking about. On STARZ (pacific feed) is the movie Role Models (2008). However, when using the STARZ app with my Spectrum credentials, it says this particular title is not authorized by my provider. Most movies/shows are available, but not everything. 
And it looks like it is not available on-demand through the Spectrum TV app. 

Now that Spectrum has their cloud DVR, I can record these if I wanted to. But It’s a bit clunky.


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## tenthplanet

mdavej said:


> Curious why you would ever bother recording premiums in the first place. Typically their entire catalog is available on-demand for years on end.
> 
> Thanks to streaming, I no longer need to record premiums or other commercial-free content like PBS.


Tell that to people who were watching Counterpart on Starz, when it wasn't renewed Season 1 and 2 were pulled from Starz VOD without warning. Better to record have a lot of room on a hard drive and then if VOD no longer has the show/episode you are still covered. Not to pick on them but I've see shows that were pulled without warning on Hulu periodically.


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## spiderpumpkin

Today I hooked up a 40-50 year old attic antenna to my tv by connecting the original two-lead wire, that was sticking out of the ceiling, to a 300 Ohm to 75 Ohm matching transformer balun. My TV found all the local channels and every single one has a strong signal. I've never used that antenna but I knew it was up there when I moved in years ago. The satisfaction of hooking that up to my TV and having it just work is overwhelming. I didn't even have to look at or adjust the antenna, which is good because I was dreading the search for an antenna to use if it didn't work.

Now, I need to go to Micro Center tomorrow and buy an HDHomeRun Quatro so I can add these OTA channels to my Channels DVR server. I'm going to use the Channels DVR as a supplemental recording storage device since my 3TB TiVo BOLT Vox seems to fill up quickly. I'll still watch my Tivo for most recordings but I'll no longer have to delete whole TV show seasons to make room even when I haven't watched them yet. 

I really wouldn't mind having an OTA Tivo, but an HDHomeRun OTA with high capacity Channels DVR that mixes well with recordable TV Everywhere channels sounds much better.

I haven't decided on a Channels app capable streaming device yet, but I'll probably buy a cheap Fire TV Stick from Amazon until I decide. Thinking Nvidia Shield or Apple TV. I'll wait on the final decision until the new hardware is announced, and may even wait for Roku to work with Channels.


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## Sparky1234

Saturn said:


> I've been a TiVo user since the Series 1 some 18 (!) years ago. The whole point was to time-shift and skip commercials. We've had our ups and downs, but our Bolt (lifetime sub) + 3 Minis are working fine. The minis are too slow and buggy to be used for Youtube/Hulu/Netflix so we also have Roku sticks on 2 of the TVs.
> 
> If TiVo is going to start pre-roll ads the whole kit is going on E-bay and I'll need an alternative. 3-4 OTA (ATSC) tuners, 1TB DVR, view-able from an iPad and several Rokus.
> 
> Is HDHomeRun my best bet here? Most of our TV is watched pre-recorded, though I do like to start watching football games halfway in to skip all the commercials and the between-play waiting.
> 
> Auto-skip would be great, but not a deal breaker - a (responsive) 30 second skip, and 7-second back has worked fine for the last 18 years. I don't care about suggestions - just something with a reliable tuner that will record our shows and play them back ad-free.
> 
> Anything else I should consider?


Tivo is the only alternative. TiVo is the company you hate to love!


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## wombat94

spiderpumpkin said:


> I haven't decided on a Channels app capable streaming device yet, but I'll probably buy a cheap Fire TV Stick from Amazon until I decide. Thinking Nvidia Shield or Apple TV. I'll wait on the final decision until the new hardware is announced, and may even wait for Roku to work with Channels.


It may be a long wait for Roku to work with Channels. There was an experimental client for Roku, but they appear to have abandoned it. Channels whole paradigm is for the in-home streaming clients to require no transcoding. They were trying to get that to work on Roku, but since the majority of streams that come from the HDHomerun are MPEG2, the Roku devices weren't powerful enough and/or the OS didn't work well enough for the experience to be acceptable.

I think the developers will probably continue to monitor the Roku ecosystem to see if anything changes, but they aren't promising anything about a Roku client for sure.


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## wmcbrine

swyman18 said:


> Right now, I just noticed an example of what I was talking about. On STARZ (pacific feed) is the movie Role Models (2008). However, when using the STARZ app with my Spectrum credentials, it says this particular title is not authorized by my provider.


Interesting. I have a direct subscription to Starz (on account of [email protected]%!#$ Comcast not authorizing the app, at all), so I did a search for that title, and it seems to be playable. (I imagine everything is, for direct subscribers.)


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## chiguy50

wmcbrine said:


> Interesting. *I have a direct subscription to Starz (on account of [email protected]%!#$ Comcast not authorizing the app, at all)*, so I did a search for that title, and it seems to be playable. (I imagine everything is, for direct subscribers.)


Hmmm, what market are you in? Did your Comcast subscription package previously include Starz? I am confused by what you mean when you say that Comcast would not authorize the app.

I know that in at least some markets Comcast is dropping Starz from the channels in its legacy Digital Premier lineup and also that Comcast is rumored to be planning to drop Starz altogether at the end of this year (although that may be a strategic ploy). But I have Starz included as an extra feature in my Preferred Double Play subscription bundle and continue to receive both the linear channels as well as the streaming programming via the Xfinity Stream app.


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## gary.buhrmaster

wombat94 said:


> They were trying to get that to work on Roku, but since the majority of streams that come from the HDHomerun are MPEG2, the Roku devices weren't powerful enough and/or the OS didn't work well enough for the experience to be acceptable.


There are some models of the Roku where MPEG2 is supported, but not all, and for the various OTAs that use 1080i I don't believe any of the Roku models have MCDI hardware, so high quality de-interlacing is not available (which makes for a poor user experience).


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## Scooter Scott

I've been trying some new alternatives for a couple years now as I saw the TiVo support going downhill. I've been watching Channels Plus more than Tablo as it is definitely the more robust and better system. After Channels Plus implemented commercial skip I knew it was time for me to fire up my subscription again to try it out. So far I have it running on my Mac Mini with my ATTNOW subscription and so far so good. New seasons have just started so I will shortly see how well the commercial skip works and if I get the WAF then the TiVo Roamio OTA will be officially retired and sold off.



spiderpumpkin said:


> I haven't decided on a Channels app capable streaming device yet, but I'll probably buy a cheap Fire TV Stick from Amazon until I decide. Thinking Nvidia Shield or Apple TV. I'll wait on the final decision until the new hardware is announced, and may even wait for Roku to work with Channels.


As of right now, you won't see this. I have the roku app on my roku but its very basic and doesn't have a lot of functionality. I don't think you can even access it to install anymore. As a previous poster said, they weren't excited about the Roku ecosystem and do not like that it doesn't mesh with how they want their Channels Plus experience to be.



gary.buhrmaster said:


> There are some models of the Roku where MPEG2 is supported, but not all, and for the various OTAs that use 1080i I don't believe any of the Roku models have MCDI hardware, so high quality de-interlacing is not available (which makes for a poor user experience).


Not to mention just starting a MPEG2 video can take upwards of 10 seconds.


----------



## k2ue

swyman18 said:


> The Channels DVR setup looks intriguing. For anyone who has tried it, how is the picture and sound quality of the recorded streaming channels when viewing on a TV and not just a mobile device?
> 
> Since these appear to be just "scraping" the web feed, I immediately think poor quality when viewing on a larger screen.


The quality of Spectrum via Channels TVE is noticeably better than the same channels on TiVo with CableCard. Channels DVR will be my switch if TiVo does the ads, and maybe anyway for better quality.


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## wmcbrine

chiguy50 said:


> Hmmm, what market are you in? Did your Comcast subscription package previously include Starz?


Did and still does, for now (I'm paying for it twice).



> _I am confused by what you mean when you say that Comcast would not authorize the app._


The Starz app (on Apple TV, although I don't think that matters), not the Xfinity app (which doesn't exist for Apple TV). See here for a similar issue: The Spite of Comcast: HBO Go



> _I know that in at least some markets Comcast is dropping Starz from the channels in its legacy Digital Premier lineup_


Yeah, that's a whole other problem.


----------



## krkaufman

wmcbrine said:


> See here for a similar issue: The Spite of Comcast: HBO Go


Noting that users have now been able to get HBOGO activated on their Comcast-subscribed TiVos, using the instructions posted later in that thread.


----------



## chiguy50

wmcbrine said:


> Did and still does, for now (I'm paying for it twice).


Well, that's crazy! I'm guessing that you mean that you have a stand-alone sub to Starz and that Starz is also supposed to be in the channel lineup that you subscribe to from Comcast? (I would hope that you are not paying Comcast an extra $12 for a separate premium sub while also subscribing to that self-same sub on its own; that would indeed be nuts!)



wmcbrine said:


> The Starz app (on Apple TV, although I don't think that matters), not the Xfinity app (which doesn't exist for Apple TV). See here for a similar issue: The Spite of Comcast: HBO Go


So, if I follow your meaning, you are pointing out that you can not log in to the Starz app on ATV via your Comcast sub. Right.

Not that it's necessarily any consolation to you, but you can access both HBO GO and Showtime Anytime on Roku and Amazon Fire TV devices via a Comcast sub. And you can also access both linear Starz channels (in real time) as well as Starz VOD via the Xfinity Stream app (on iOS, Android and Roku devices) as well as the web portal.


----------



## Saturn

Sparky1234 said:


> Tivo is the only alternative. TiVo is the company you hate to love!


I can tell you I have no love for TiVo anymore. We're long past the honeymoon period, and long past me talking about their virtues incessantly to family and friends. At this point we're coasting in the relationship due to momentum more than anything. I could write pages about our ups and downs, highlights and disappointments, but I don't think anyone really cares. I do, however, have a strong aversion to ads, especially the super-generic kind that piggy back with television content. If TiVo is going to actively display those rather than passively (or actively) allow me to skip them, then we're done - the ability to schedule and dump (already-digital) OTA recordings to a spinning platter and play them back on any device with a screen is now commodity functionality and even arguably unnecessary given the streaming services now available.

At this point, the ball is in TiVo's court. If it is an on-device or online setting to not show pre-roll ads, I'll probably stick with it. If it is a phone call...maybe. If I have to spend a day pulling shows off, and repaving 4 TiVos with TE3, setting up wishlists and recordings again, and give up autoskip...then forget it. That time is better spent figuring out Tablo or Recast or Plex+HDHomeRun or [insert solution here] or seriously considering just decommissioning the antenna.

Over the years I've come to accept that TiVo will not be the media hub I wished it were - a $30 Roku blows a $150 TiVo mini out of the water for speed, reliability, and app availability. All I ask is that my TiVos do what my S1 could do - record shows reliably and play them back ad-free.


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## swyman18

wmcbrine said:


> Interesting. I have a direct subscription to Starz (on account of [email protected]%!#$ Comcast not authorizing the app, at all), so I did a search for that title, and it seems to be playable. (I imagine everything is, for direct subscribers.)


Correct... it says if I want to watch that particular title, I need to "upgrade" which I assume means become a direct subscriber.


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## Sparky1234

Saturn said:


> I can tell you I have no love for TiVo anymore. We're long past the honeymoon period, and long past me talking about their virtues incessantly to family and friends. At this point we're coasting in the relationship due to momentum more than anything. I could write pages about our ups and downs, highlights and disappointments, but I don't think anyone really cares. I do, however, have a strong aversion to ads, especially the super-generic kind that piggy back with television content. If TiVo is going to actively display those rather than passively (or actively) allow me to skip them, then we're done - the ability to schedule and dump (already-digital) OTA recordings to a spinning platter and play them back on any device with a screen is now commodity functionality and even arguably unnecessary given the streaming services now available.
> 
> At this point, the ball is in TiVo's court. If it is an on-device or online setting to not show pre-roll ads, I'll probably stick with it. If it is a phone call...maybe. If I have to spend a day pulling shows off, and repaving 4 TiVos with TE3, setting up wishlists and recordings again, and give up autoskip...then forget it. That time is better spent figuring out Tablo or Recast or Plex+HDHomeRun or [insert solution here] or seriously considering just decommissioning the antenna.
> 
> Over the years I've come to accept that TiVo will not be the media hub I wished it were - a $30 Roku blows a $150 TiVo mini out of the water for speed, reliability, and app availability. All I ask is that my TiVos do what my S1 could do - record shows reliably and play them back ad-free.


Try a Bolt+?


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## Sparky1234

swyman18 said:


> Correct... it says if I want to watch that particular title, I need to "upgrade" which I assume means become a direct subscriber.


The future of streaming is that you will pay for everything.


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## slowbiscuit

...and be forced to watch ads on the services that require them.

What we have now with Tivo and streaming is as good as it'll ever get. Once it's all-IP it will be worse.


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## mdavej

Sparky1234 said:


> Try a Bolt+?


So Bolt+ won't have ads and will do everything a Roku can do? Cool!


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## ncted

Sparky1234 said:


> The future of streaming is that you will pay for everything.


I will pay...if I don't also have to watch ads.


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## Mikeguy

mdavej said:


> So Bolt+ won't have ads and will do everything a Roku can do? Cool!


And it'll airfry your fries as well.


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## tenthplanet

Mikeguy said:


> And it'll airfry your fries as well.


For airfrying you'll need two bolts, make sure you block the proper holes to generate required heat


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## Saturn

tenthplanet said:


> For airfrying you'll need two bolts, make sure you block the proper holes to generate required heat


Na, in reality you can just step outside TiVo's headquarters and airfry with the heat from the torches all the annoyed lifetime subscribers... Not sure if the pitchforks would work for holding the fries or not.


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## Saturn

So a thought I had last night is that I've spent an awful lot of money on TiVos and related technology over the last 18 years, all for the goal of 1) not having a monthly subscription, 2) timeshifting, and 3) ad-free viewing. The source has changed from analog cable to digital cable to digital OTA, and the S3s added multiple TVs, show transfers and such, but otherwise things have mostly been the same. Adding it all up, I've spent somewhere between $3k and $4k on TiVo hardware, lifetime subscriptions, lifetime transfer fees, replacement hard drives, and UPSs, MoCa adapters, and such over the last 18 years. Lets say $3600 to make the math nice. That's $200 per year amortized, or about $17 per month.

If I give up on the whole notion of dumping OTA signals to a spinning disk inside my house, what does $17 per month get me? Local Sports Team's college and NFL games? The usual OTA channel content (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS)?


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## wombat94

I thought I'd add a bit more of my experience so far with Channels DVR (on Fios with TVEverywhere and HDHR Connect Quatro tuning clear QAM for locals)...

1) last night's Eagles/Packers game, I did a quick comparison between the ESPN stream and the local broadcast (Fox 29 in Philly)... the ESPN stream was nearly unwatchable. Lots of jitter and the 30fps stream for live sports was not acceptable. It was much nicer when I switched to the local broadcast.

2) For the locals being tuned via Fios Clear QAM, there is definitely too much signal coming from the FiOS ONT. All tuners are always pegged at 100% on all three metrics. This is causing much more glitching and pixelating on the HDHR than my Tivo Roamio Pro is experiencing recording the exact same shows. It reminded me of a decade ago when I was seeing the same thing with my original Tivo HD on Fios. I have a set of coax signal attenuators on the way from Amazon and I will go through the same thing I did back then to find the right about of attenuation to not overdrive the tuners in the HDHR. Tivo eventually fixed their tuner issue with a software fix to turn down the sensitivity if the signal was overdriven, but I don't see any way to reduce the sensitivity of the HDHR's tuners through google searches. Tonight I'll fiddle with attenuators and hopefully will result in solid signal from the HDHR.

3) The out-of-home streaming experience is miles ahead of anything that I ever achieved with Tivo. Remote viewing of recorded content works great, remote scheduling is smooth and seamless and remote viewing of live content is nearly as quick to change channels as being local on the home LAN.

Overall for me, I feel like I've found the "next gen" of DVR finally - with about a $15-20/month savings when I commit to it, depending on whether I also pick up a HDHR prime and keep cable card as well or not.


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## shwru980r

tarheelblue32 said:


> So Amazon DVRs are adding commercial skip at the same time TiVo DVRs are adding in commercials. How ironic.


I thought Tivo was adding pre-roll commercials to shows. I don't think Tivo interrupts shows with additional commercials because that would seem to negate their commercial skip feature. Amazon adds pre-roll commercials to prime video shows and has lots of commercials on their free IMBD TV shows. There is nothing preventing Amazon from adding pre-roll commercials to recast shows.


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## swyman18

wombat94 said:


> 1) last night's Eagles/Packers game, I did a quick comparison between the ESPN stream and the local broadcast (Fox 29 in Philly)... the ESPN stream was nearly unwatchable. Lots of jitter and the 30fps stream for live sports was not acceptable. It was much nicer when I switched to the local broadcast.


I think you meant the NFL Network stream, not ESPN, correct?


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## wombat94

swyman18 said:


> I think you meant the NFL Network stream, not ESPN, correct?


Sorry... you are correct. It was on NFL Network.


----------



## wombat94

So my attenuators came in the mail today and I installed them right after dinner.

A total of 15db of attenuation and I'm at about 95% signal strength - and a rock solid picture/sound now on all the tuners of the HDHR Connect Quatro.

I'm definitely liking this option. I've got a few weeks left on the current month of Tivo, but I may end up cancelling once the current month runs out.


----------



## ncted

shwru980r said:


> I thought Tivo was adding pre-roll commercials to shows. I don't think Tivo interrupts shows with additional commercials because that would seem to negate their commercial skip feature. Amazon adds pre-roll commercials to prime video shows and has lots of commercials on their free IMBD TV shows. There is nothing preventing Amazon from adding pre-roll commercials to recast shows.


Interesting distinction in my mind: pre-roll ads (I can FF) for something I've already paid for (other Amazon shows) vs. ads for random products/services based on my profile. I want neither, but I don't mind the first as much somehow.


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## tenthplanet

Saturn said:


> So a thought I had last night is that I've spent an awful lot of money on TiVos and related technology over the last 18 years, all for the goal of 1) not having a monthly subscription, 2) timeshifting, and 3) ad-free viewing. The source has changed from analog cable to digital cable to digital OTA, and the S3s added multiple TVs, show transfers and such, but otherwise things have mostly been the same. Adding it all up, I've spent somewhere between $3k and $4k on TiVo hardware, lifetime subscriptions, lifetime transfer fees, replacement hard drives, and UPSs, MoCa adapters, and such over the last 18 years. Lets say $3600 to make the math nice. That's $200 per year amortized, or about $17 per month.
> 
> If I give up on the whole notion of dumping OTA signals to a spinning disk inside my house, what does $17 per month get me? Local Sports Team's college and NFL games? The usual OTA channel content (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS)?


It gets you OTA that you have to watch in real time  vs. your time. Anything else will come over the internet and costs go..... up....


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## DeltaOne

wombat94 said:


> A total of 15db of attenuation and I'm at about 95% signal strength - and a rock solid picture/sound now on all the tuners of the HDHR Connect Quatro.


About a year ago I was running 12 dB of attenuation to get all six tuners below 100% (with the tuners set to the six channels that we most often watch/record).

I check the signal strength every few months. About 3 or 4 months my feed signal must have dropped a bit, so I backed off to 9 dB of attenuation.


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## spiderpumpkin

I've been using Channels DVR with Xfinity TV Everywhere and HDHR Quatro OTA for 4 days now. All I can say is it works perfectly and even marks all commercials. There's even automatic commercial skipping on all shows.


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## drweb

Sorry if a duplicate, but I saw this article yesterday, and covers some of the alternatives:
Why TiVo is putting ads in its DVR (and what you can do about it)

Best,
DrWeb


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## Saturn

Thanks for that article - a nice rundown of options. I didn't realize Tablo didn't handle 1080i well - that's a deal breaker, as at least a couple of our OTA stations are 1080i.

I'm now leaning towards plex. I can certainly handle setting up a HDHomeRun or two and some server software as I already have a plex server.


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## dadrepus

Saturn said:


> I'm now leaning towards plex. I can certainly handle setting up a HDHomeRun or two and some server software as I already have a plex server.


Plex does a pretty nice job, for the most part, with live tv. Some times there is buffering. The guide is fine and you can add more than 1. The DVR capability is OK but can suck a lot of juice and max out your cpu if you don't have a powerful server. You can add as many HDHR's as you want. It is mostly running ad-skip per recording that's the hog. I'm currently running on a Mac mini core i5 and it struggles some times. But my Tivos are still better. But when they break... Plex all through the house.


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## jakep_82

I just thought I would toss in my experiences as I replace my Tivo. I bought a refurbished Tablo last week and set it up on Friday. Setup was painless, and in general it works fine. I didn't find video quality to be an issue, even while watching the NFL. That might be because of my older 1080p Panasonic plasma, but I didn't notice a huge difference between my Tivo and the Tablo at the highest quality setting. The frame rate is lower, but it didn't bother me. Where I started running into issues is the app. I tried both the regular Tablo app, and the Tablo Preview app on my Fire TV Stick 4K. The preview app offers auto commercial skipping, but the app is not feature complete. I was unable to watch a recording in progress. If I started something while it was recording, it immediately jumped to live with no option to start from the beginning of the recording. It also didn't remember where I left off if I exited the recording. This was a dealbreaker for using that app. The regular Tablo app didn't have this problem, but then I lost commercial skipping. I also found the app to feel somewhat beta with occasional glitches, and not exactly modern. The overall user experience was mediocre for a variety of reasons.

So after using the Tablo for a day I could tell I didn't like it, and I ordered a Recast on Saturday afternoon. The Recast arrived Sunday morning, and I had it set up in time to watch the afternoon NFL games. I did notice the higher frame rate when compared to the Tablo, as well as the slightly softer image when compared to the Tivo. Overall though the image quality is very good. I love the integration on my Fire TV, and I'm much happier with the Recast. Skipping and fast forwarding on the Recast is basically just as good as the Tivo, and the streaming app experience with Fire TV is much better than Tivo. So for me the Tablo will be sold along with my Tivo, and our house is now all in on Fire TV.


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## jebbbz

jakep_82 said:


> I just thought I would toss in my experiences as I replace my Tivo. ... I also found the app to feel somewhat beta with occasional glitches, and not exactly modern. The overall user experience was mediocre for a variety of reasons.
> 
> So after using the Tablo for a day I could tell I didn't like it, and I ordered a Recast ... I love the integration on my Fire TV, and I'm much happier with the Recast. Skipping and fast forwarding on the Recast is basically just as good as the Tivo, and the streaming app experience with Fire TV is much better than Tivo. So for me the Tablo will be sold along with my Tivo, and our house is now all in on Fire TV.


I have a TiVo Bolt (and cable -- not enough votes to cut the cord) and have had a Tablo Dual 64 for over a year and a dual tuner Recast for about a month. You are correct about the Tablo Preview software. According to Tablo it is a late-stage beta so the problems you noted may yet be fixed. If I had to choose (I don't), I would keep the Tablo over the Recast because my viewing habits are different.

The Recast is tightly integrated with Fire TV devices while the Tablo is not but thanks to user-written software it is easy to back-up/archive recordings to a networked drive from the Tablo. I have about a hundred shows so archived. So far, there is no way to do the same with the Recast. Also, it is possible to use the Tablo in a browser window on a PC but you need to use your TV and Fire TV device to watch recordings or do any scheduling or administration. Similarly, phone and tablet apps can give you almost full control over the Tablo while the Recast app does not. The latter is, for me, quite unreliable (connection and buffering issues). Skipping about in recordings is excellent with the Tablo apps on my iPad because the Tablo trans-codes everything to HLS Mpeg4 (whatever HLS is) which is optimized for streaming while the Recast app is clunky. On Fire TV devices the Recast 30 and 10 second skips are quite good.

Neither device has particularly useful signal strength/quality meters and setting up antenna reception would be easier if they had good signal monitoring. My Tablo tuners have been rock-solid with antennas ranging from a telescoping mono-pole taped in a window to the old house VHF/UHF in the attic. The Recast has been OK except it has problems with VHF 8 (PBS) that none of my other devices (TVs, Tablo, Windows Media Center) do. Assuming this is peculiar to my situation, it did introduce me to one continuing aggravation with the Recast. If you have any signal problem, the Recast will display a Low/No Signal warning that is more intrusive than the glitch which may last only a split second or even be completely invisible to the eye. When the signal problem is truly noticeable the warning is unnecessary. There is no way to turn this off and people have been complaining about it since the Recast first came out.

I did encounter a problem with my Tablo when, one day, CBS went crazy. I opened a ticket with Tablo, described the problem and included a 15 second sample of the problem. I then found out they had gotten many other complaints that day. Turns out our local CBS affiliate had made some changes to their signal that confused Tablo transcoding, so Tablo contacted them and worked things out very promptly. I was impressed with their customer support this one time I needed it.


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## Lurker1

These last few posts have been excellent. Please keep up the first-hand reports of personal experiences with TiVo alternatives.


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## jakep_82

jebbbz said:


> The Recast is tightly integrated with Fire TV devices while the Tablo is not but thanks to user-written software it is easy to back-up/archive recordings to a networked drive from the Tablo. I have about a hundred shows so archived. So far, there is no way to do the same with the Recast. Also, it is possible to use the Tablo in a browser window on a PC but you need to use your TV and Fire TV device to watch recordings or do any scheduling or administration. Similarly, phone and tablet apps can give you almost full control over the Tablo while the Recast app does not. The latter is, for me, quite unreliable (connection and buffering issues). Skipping about in recordings is excellent with the Tablo apps on my iPad because the Tablo trans-codes everything to HLS Mpeg4 (whatever HLS is) which is optimized for streaming while the Recast app is clunky. On Fire TV devices the Recast 30 and 10 second skips are quite good.
> 
> Neither device has particularly useful signal strength/quality meters and setting up antenna reception would be easier if they had good signal monitoring. My Tablo tuners have been rock-solid with antennas ranging from a telescoping mono-pole taped in a window to the old house VHF/UHF in the attic. The Recast has been OK except it has problems with VHF 8 (PBS) that none of my other devices (TVs, Tablo, Windows Media Center) do. Assuming this is peculiar to my situation, it did introduce me to one continuing aggravation with the Recast. If you have any signal problem, the Recast will display a Low/No Signal warning that is more intrusive than the glitch which may last only a split second or even be completely invisible to the eye. When the signal problem is truly noticeable the warning is unnecessary. There is no way to turn this off and people have been complaining about it since the Recast first came out.


Yeah, it sounds like we have very different use cases, so I can see why the Tablo would be better for you. I used to archive some shows, but after a few years I realized I hadn't once re-watched 99% of them, so I abandoned archiving entirely.

I also don't use out of home streaming, so the relatively meager mobile app for the Recast isn't a major issue for me. I know I will miss the ability to schedule a recording through the app on the rare occasion that I discover something I want to record while I'm away from home. Hopefully Amazon adds that feature, but it's far from a dealbreaker for me.

I live 5 miles from the broadcast towers in my area, so signal strength is not an issue. Even with a cheap Mohu Leaf clone I get perfect reception on every channel, so I can't comment on the signal warning.


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## jebbbz

Lurker1 said:


> These last few posts have been excellent. Please keep up the first-hand reports of personal experiences with TiVo alternatives.


Happy to oblige.

One irksome problem with both the Tablo and the Recast is that on playback if you hit pause both will darken the top and bottom thirds of the screens. Eventually this clears but when you hit play they darken the top and bottom again. The Tablo lets you clear the screen with the "Back" button but if you wait too long you may mis-time it and back out of the recording. No "Clear" button as on the TiVo remote. Both continue to buffer a channel if you switch away and you can toggle back and forth between (or, with quad tuners, among) channels very quickly so limited surfing is pretty convenient. I haven't had success pausing a current channel, switching away for a bit, then switching back to where I had paused. Instead, you wind up live on the previous channel.

The Recast comes with a multi-day (14?) guide whereas the Tablo has only a 24 hour grid. But you have access to about 14 days of series icons which can be filtered by channel, prime time, TV, movies or sports to set up future episode or series recordings. Searches on the Recast require you to scroll through the grid guide which can take a while to populate if you try to zoom ahead several days.

Unlike my Roku stick, my Fire TV sticks don't play perfectly with my Tablo. If you want to view a chronological listing of upcoming recordings it may hang forever without displaying them. Sometimes it works OK. The Recast works fine at this.

The Recast becomes part of the Fire TV while Tablo is only an app. Sometimes, the Tablo takes a good while to load if it is no longer cached. Sometimes it loads instantly. The Recast can integrate on-line services (I include Pluto on one of my Fire TVs) and you can customize your Favorites so you are not overwhelmed by choices.

Automatic commercial skip on my Tablo works between decently and perfectly, depending on the transitions into and out of commercials which varies a lot from network to network.

The Recast allows better fine tuning of padding, as little a one minute at either end. Tablo has a minimum of two minutes for the start and five minutes at the end. The Tablo lets you set a minimum of one saved show while the Recast minimum is five.

If you are a Prime member the Recast is a screaming deal. My dual tuner Recast lists for $239.00 and has been on sale for $50.00 less. I got mine as a Prime member for $100.00 off and it comes with a lifetime guide, $129.00 total. A comparable Tablo would run $99.00 on sale, plus the cost of a hard drive (if you need one) plus $150.00 for lifetime, say, up to $300.00 total.

I find either would be a decent alternative to a TiVo but as my Bolt has lifetime my Tablo and Recast serve as backups and extra tuners for network shows.


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## TeamPace

I've been OTA since 2009. TiVo has been and still is my primary OTA device. I also have a FireTV Recast and have experience with Tablo and Air TV (Dish/Sling) device. Air TV is the least expensive at $79 plus the cost to add your own hard drive for DVR functionality and there are no monthly fees. But it works best if your using Sling in combo with OTA. Tablo is also a decent device. I have a friend that I set up with a Tablo Quad and they have been happy with it. I have had to get Tablo tech support a couple of times with some issues but they have always gotten it working for me. Tablo is a bit more expensive with lifetime service. Personally though I see Recast as my second choice device and sometimes I recommend it above TiVo for people who are cutting the cord.

What I like about Recast: Super easy to set up, has a built-in hard drive (500Gb or 1Tb) and 2 or 4 tuners. I also like the 4K Firesticks as they are snappy, have TV volume/power buttons and have a nice looking interface. FireTV works best if you're a prime subscriber which we are. I love that the Recast incorporates the OTA channels right into the Home Screen and that I only need one remote for everything. The tuner's seem to work well and while not as feature rich as TiVo it's easy to use and once set up works on all the Fire TV devices in the home wirelessly. So it is a much easier and cost effective system to work with vs most other systems. There are no monthly fees and the guide data goes out 14 days. If you connect with an Alexa device you can tune channels, pause, rewind, and play video content by voice. You can also set up recordings by voice as well. While watching a recording (or Netflix etc) you can repeat something you can just ask Alexa to rewind 20 seconds (or any number) and it will do that. The recast can be placed anywhere in the house where you have an outlet to plug it in and access to your antenna coax. That makes locating your antenna in the best location easier. Also the Recast works fine either with ethernet or wirelessly. You are limited to two streams (for OTA channels) and the resolution is only 720p (to make wireless streaming more reliable). But I find the picture quality nearly indistinguishable from my TiVo.

Reportedly Amazon plans to add more features to the Recast as time goes on, such as commercial skip. If you watch for a sale price (pretty frequent) you can buy a Recast for $50 to $100 off. The regular prices are $229 (2 tuner/500Gb) and $279 (4Tb/1Tb) It's definitely a great alternative (and even has some advantages) to TiVo. Especially if you don't mind the FireTV interface.


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## spiderpumpkin

I bought an Amazon Fire TV stick to use with the Channels DVR app. The Channels DVR app works wonderfully on there. Also, the Fire TV remote is very easy to use including easily skipping forward 30 seconds and back 7, which can be adjusted in the Channels app settings.


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## jebbbz

I'll add two more things which may make a difference depending on your household. If you or another family member need closed captions, especially if only occasionally, it is quick and easy to toggle them on and off with the Tablo but you have no control over their appearance and they may be intrusive. With a Recast turning CCs on and off is more involved but you have more control over size, color and background.

A number of users (including me) find audio through a Tablo too soft in comparison with other apps unless you set it to 5.1 sound which comes through better. That setting, however, can kill the audio altogether if the device you are using does not support 5.1 sound. Roku, Fire TV, and my tablet apps are fine but my computer monitor audio out does not (I have a Fire TV pendant attached to it for scheduling).


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## jakep_82

TeamPace said:


> You are limited to two streams (for OTA channels) and the resolution is only 720p (to make wireless streaming more reliable). But I find the picture quality nearly indistinguishable from my TiVo.


My experience is the same. I've seen people harp on the resolution in other places, but I'm not sure they realize that Fox and ABC are broadcast in 720p. I would also bet most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i when it's displayed on a good TV at a normal viewing distance.


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## wizwor

jakep_82 said:


> My experience is the same. I've seen people harp on the resolution in other places, but I'm not sure they realize that Fox and ABC are broadcast in 720p. I would also bet most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i when it's displayed on a good TV at a normal viewing distance.


I have a TiVo and 4K stick on the same television as well as a DirecTV box. I can switch from one to the other very quickly to compare. The Recast is not as good as the other two -- especially for sports. That doesn't make it bad, but you can tell the difference.


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## jakep_82

wizwor said:


> I have a TiVo and 4K stick on the same television as well as a DirecTV box. I can switch from one to the other very quickly to compare. The Recast is not as good as the other two -- especially for sports. That doesn't make it bad, but you can tell the difference.


I think part of it is down to what TV you're watching it on. I've done the same back and forth testing with Recast and my Tivo Bolt, and on my 10 year old 1080p Panasonic plasma the difference is negligible, even for live sports like the NFL. If I had a 4K TV the difference might be more noticeable. It also might be down to how much Comcast is compressing the signal. My Tivo is connected to Comcast, and the Recast is connected to an antenna.


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## jebbbz

I just noticed that, with my Roku, my Tablo now offers a beta 14 day grid guide, not just a 24 hour guide as is still the case with Fire TV. Things change quickly.


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## ncted

jebbbz said:


> I just noticed that, with my Roku, my Tablo now offers a beta 14 day grid guide, not just a 24 hour guide as is still the case with Fire TV. Things change quickly.


Good news for the Tablo. Are you saying your Fire TV Recast only has a 24 hour guide? Mine goes a full 14 days out. It does take a few seconds to load as it doesn't cache the full guide locally, but downloads it on demand.


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## mdavej

@jebbbz My Fire TV has always had a 14 day guide as well. Something is amiss in your setup.


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## Adam C.

mdavej said:


> @jebbbz My Fire TV has always had a 14 day guide as well. .


Good to know, as at least 1 person on here was saying the Recast guide only goes out 24 hours. I suspected that was incorrect.


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## jebbbz

I was unclear. My apologies. Accessing my Tablo (not my Recast) through my Fire TV gives only a 24 hour grid while the Tablo app for Roku now offers a beta 14 day grid. My Recast has a 14 day grid.


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## mrsean

I am so tired of Tivo giving us the middle finger time and time again by ignoring the most requested features. We should all get together and crowdsource an Android-based DVR. Maybe Arris could produce the hardware for us. We got talented enough devs in our midst.


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## slowbiscuit

Well it's been mentioned here many times before, you buy a Tivo as a DVR. Everything else is gravy that can easily be subbed out.


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## mdavej

mrsean said:


> I am so tired of Tivo giving us the middle finger time and time again by ignoring the most requested features. We should all get together and crowdsource an Android-based DVR. Maybe Arris could produce the hardware for us. We got talented enough devs in our midst.


What don't you like about the existing Android based DVRs (Google Live Channels, HD Homerun, Channels, Recast)? Why re-invent the wheel?


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## gary.buhrmaster

mdavej said:


> What don't you like about the existing Android based DVRs (Google Live Channels, HD Homerun, Channels, Recast)? Why re-invent the wheel?


The one limitation of all those existing solutions is the lack of current support for sources that require a protected content path (which only WMC and TiVo have today outside of the providers STB).

However, to reply to the person who suggested the crowd sourcing, the real challenge is in support of a solution that requires a protected content path. One must not only develop it (and typically that means licensing already existing support libraries where it is available to minimize the work, but even that is just a start), but one must also be able to get it certified and maintained which requires a real corporation capable of dealing with the obtaining the necessary requirements and licenses and insurances (and failure to be able to maintain the protected content path comes with a potential liability of many millions of dollars if you screw up the protection, so only the large companies can afford to make that investment). Arris (or others) will sell you the hardware, and can provide a basic SDK, but you still need to do the development and the certification. There is lots of talk about building alternatives, but protected path required support is hard and expensive, and companies that provide things like Plex and Channels have looked at it and said that is a bridge too far.


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## mdavej

gary.buhrmaster said:


> The one limitation of all those existing solutions is the lack of current support for sources that require a protected content path (which only WMC and TiVo have today outside of the providers STB).
> 
> However, to reply to the person who suggested the crowd sourcing, the real challenge is in support of a solution that requires a protected content path. One must not only develop it (and typically that means licensing already existing support libraries where it is available to minimize the work, but even that is just a start), but one must also be able to get it certified and maintained which requires a real corporation capable of dealing with the obtaining the necessary requirements and licenses and insurances (and failure to be able to maintain the protected content path comes with a potential liability of many millions of dollars if you screw up the protection, so only the large companies can afford to make that investment). Arris (or others) will sell you the hardware, and can provide a basic SDK, but you still need to do the development and the certification. There is lots of talk about building alternatives, but protected path required support is hard and expensive, and companies that provide things like Plex and Channels have looked at it and said that is a bridge too far.


Exactly. Even a company like Silicon Dust won't do it because a single $250 million fine would bankrupt them. So it's never going to happen.


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## NashGuy

For folks who are a bit tech-inclined and not afraid of a little DIY project and have a Linux or Mac computer available, you might want to check out the free open-source MythTV DVR software. You can use it with HDHomeRun tuners, which I do. I installed the MacPorts package of MythTV on my iMac and it generally works well. (Every now and then the system seems to go offline and I have to manually stop and restart it on my Mac.)

If you want to set up recordings manually (based on channel number and time), that's free. If you want a normal DVR experience with Gracenote guide data, you'll need to subscribe to Schedules Direct at a cost of $25/yr. (They have an initial 7-day risk-free trial to give you a chance to get the data working properly with MythTV, which, BTW, has built-in automatic download support for Schedules Direct.)

Unless you want to manage and watch your recordings on a computer, then you'll need compatible apps for your desired viewing device. I use a simple $10 (one-time charge) app for my Apple TV that's named ... MythTV. It does the basics of letting me watch and delete recordings from the MythTV server on my Mac. Left and right clicks on the Apple TV remote reliably skip backward and forward in increments of 10 and 30 seconds, respectively, or I can quick-scrub through the video timeline. Unfortunately, the thumbnail preview window in this app doesn't reliably reveal the contents of a given point in the video timeline, so when you're scrubbing right or left to FF or rewind (e.g. through a commercial break), you're really doing it blind. I just tend to scrub ahead ~3 minutes, then start playing and, if necessary, left or right click from there to reach the point where the show resumes. (For live TV, I use the Channels app on my Apple TV. It had a one-time cost of $25 and uses the same HDHomeRun Connect OTA tuner that MythTV uses.)

There's also a free app called *Mythling* that exists for Fire TV and Android mobile devices. This app not only lets you view and delete recordings but also set up new ones. I have it installed on my Android phone, so when I set up new recordings, I either do it on my phone or on my iMac where the MythTV system actually runs.

Beyond that, if you install the latest version 30.0 of MythTV on a Linux PC, it looks like the software's native "mythfrontend" UI can now be installed on some Android TV and Fire TV devices. (There is an older port of MythTV that's supposed to run on some Windows PCs but it looks like kind of a mess, so beware.)

For folks who want a super-easy-to-configure first-class DVR experience that rivals TiVo, MythTV probably isn't a solution I would suggest. But if, like me, you're someone who only watches some, but not a ton, of free OTA TV, and you want a decent low-cost OTA DVR solution for your Apple TV/Fire TV/Android mobile/Mac/Linux devices, it fits the bill.


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## mrsean

mrsean said:


> I am so tired of Tivo giving us the middle finger time and time again by ignoring the most requested features. We should all get together and crowdsource an Android-based DVR. Maybe Arris could produce the hardware for us. We got talented enough devs in our midst.


Hmm. I haven't tried them though I've read that each of them has their short-comings which does not inspire me to devote time investigating them. Also I am a cable household at the moment.


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## gary.buhrmaster

mdavej said:


> Exactly. Even a company like Silicon Dust won't do it because a single $250 million fine would bankrupt them. So it's never going to happen.


Last I looked SiliconDust is still committed for a protected content path DVR solution (for their own tuners and software), but (reading between the lines) it would appear their first approach was rejected by CableLabs and/or DTLA, forcing them to do some substantial redesign, and pushing back the delivery of a (potential) solution for quite some time now (numerous years now). Protected path content requirements are hard to get right, and, as you say, the penalty for getting it wrong is a business ending event for anyone without a few billion dollars in the bank.


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## wizwor

NashGuy said:


> For folks who are a bit tech-inclined and not afraid of a little DIY project and have a Linux or Mac computer available, you might want to check out the free open-source MythTV DVR software.


MythTV got me to buy five DTVPals. And I am tech-inclined and not afraid of a little DIY project. I do not, however, like Linux or Apple computers. That said, I did not like Windows Media Server even when I liked Windows computers.


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## NashGuy

wizwor said:


> MythTV got me to buy five DTVPals. And I am tech-inclined and not afraid of a little DIY project. I do not, however, like Linux or Apple computers. That said, I did not like Windows Media Server even when I liked Windows computers.


OK, so you don't care for Mac or Linux or Windows. So... Chrome OS?


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## Joe3

gary.buhrmaster said:


> The one limitation of all those existing solutions is the lack of current support for sources that require a protected content path (which only WMC and TiVo have today outside of the providers STB).
> 
> However, to reply to the person who suggested the crowd sourcing, the real challenge is in support of a solution that requires a protected content path. One must not only develop it (and typically that means licensing already existing support libraries where it is available to minimize the work, but even that is just a start), but one must also be able to get it certified and maintained which requires a real corporation capable of dealing with the obtaining the necessary requirements and licenses and insurances (and failure to be able to maintain the protected content path comes with a potential liability of many millions of dollars if you screw up the protection, so only the large companies can afford to make that investment). Arris (or others) will sell you the hardware, and can provide a basic SDK, but you still need to do the development and the certification. There is lots of talk about building alternatives, but protected path required support is hard and expensive, and companies that provide things like Plex and Channels have looked at it and said that is a bridge too far.


If you could elaborate on the following:

"but one must also be able to get it certified and maintained which requires a real corporation capable of dealing with the obtaining the necessary requirements and licenses and insurances (and failure to be able to maintain the protected content path comes with a potential liability of many millions of dollars."

And here,

"requires a protected content path."

For instance, protected from what and who, exactly.


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## wizwor

NashGuy said:


> OK, so you don't care for Mac or Linux or Windows. So... Chrome OS?


God no! I have nothing to do with Google. I suffer computers these days. Just as I suffer the World Wide Web. Everything is perpetually broken and vulnerable. The last computer I loved had Vista installed. Vista came with WMC and the right version of MovieMaker. After SP2, it was fine. My favorite computer of all time is the Atari XEGS. It was inexpensive, reliable, well supported, and connected. In fact, people are still writing software and building hardware for this awesome computer three decades after its debut. My first word processor, first laser printer, and some of the best video games ever created. While 40 year old floppies and 1050s still work, I load software off an SD card these days. Never had a virus, never hacked, and never rendered obsolete by an OS patch. My first Atari computer was $99.99 after my first mail in rebate.

But I would not use it as a DVR even if I could.

When we fired Comcast, I was pretty sure we did not need a DVR. We had one with Comcast, but it was full of unwatched episodes of Bonnie Hunt and Who Wants to be a Millionaire. We were already using Netflix for 'on demand' premium content...as on demand as USPS delivered discs can be, anyway.

It took about a week to realize we used a DVR for a lot more than time shifting programs. For starters, we relied on an EPG for a schedule of what was on television. You could get guide date without a DVR, but you needed something. The PSIP data provided by digital to analog converters and digital televisions was insufficient and poorly presented. I never heard the term trick play, but we used the DVR to rewind, fast forward, and pause television ALL THE TIME. Dinner, phone, wardrobe malfunction all required trick play.

At the time, an 'All In' Tivo cost around $800. I had PCs, tuners, and disks, so I played with MythTV, WMC, NextPVR, and SageTV. WMC was the most satisfying, but PCs were big, used too much electricity, and required significant support. I was traveling a lot at the time and WAF was not part of the PC-DVR experience -- as you know...


NashGuy said:


> I installed the MacPorts package of MythTV on my iMac and it *generally works well*. (Every now and then the system seems to go offline and I have to manually stop and restart it on my Mac.)


Fortunately, I stumbled across the DTVPal. We were long time Dish customers, so the UI was familiar and comfortable. It just worked and was attractive under the television. Within hours of unpackaging my first, I was looking for a second on ebay. Eventually, we owned five -- for less than $1k with no monthly fees. Even after Rovi pulled the plug on our Lifetime EPG, the DTVPal was able to cobble together a solid EPG using PSIP data. When the Pals started failing (about five years in), I checked in with TiVo (still expensive) and bought DVR+ DVRs from Channel Master.

In May of 2015, the All-In Roamio OTA went on sale for $299.99 and I bought a pair. I bought another one in August and two more at $199.99 in 2016 and 2017. $1300 for five TiVos. Smaller and more energy efficient than the Pals with a better UI and smarter recording, the TiVos have high WAF and have proven to be reliable. No viruses. No crippling updates. No crashes. No BSODs. And the company is still in business.

TiVo is not the only DVR I own. I have a Recast, a Tablo TV DVR, and a pair of HDTC-2US-Ls (plus Plex Pass). I am told that I owned more Simple TV DVRs than anyone who was not an employee of the company (RIP Simple TV DVR). I've installed Kodi on a FireTV Stick and a Raspberry PI, but these are just for the hobbyist.

How long have people been predicting the end of TiVo? ATSC 1.0? Repack? ATSC 3.0? Rovi? Next May my first TiVo will be five years old. ATSC 3.0 is still over the horizon. For all its warts and blemishes, TiVo is the best DVR experience for most people.


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## slowbiscuit

NashGuy said:


> For folks who are a bit tech-inclined and not afraid of a little DIY project and have a Linux or Mac computer available, you might want to check out the free open-source MythTV DVR software. You can use it with HDHomeRun tuners, which I do.


Myth has been around a long time, I used it 10-15 years ago for clear QAM back when it was available. But it does not handle protected content which takes it out of the picture for a lot of cable.

Powerful and highly customizable but way overkill for most folks wanting to record OTA, IMO. A geek's dream.


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## wizwor

This guy is what I think of when I think of MythTV...


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## NashGuy

slowbiscuit said:


> Myth has been around a long time, I used it 10-15 years ago for clear QAM back when it was available. But it does not handle protected content which takes it out of the picture for a lot of cable.
> 
> Powerful and highly customizable but way overkill for most folks wanting to record OTA, IMO. A geek's dream.


Yeah, I was specifically pitching it as an option for OTA users, not cable users. Although it works with CableCARD about as well as any non-TiVo DVR, I suppose (meaning that protected content is off limits, although if you're on Comcast, that's pretty much just the premiums).

It may be more powerful and customizable than the average OTA DVR user needs but then you don't have to dive into all that stuff if you don't want. It's a pretty simple, straightforward, cheap solution, IMO. Only real hassle was getting it initially installed and configured. As I say, this isn't something to suggest to your mom but for tech-inclined folks who don't mind a DIY project, it's a viable option (and not one I've seen mentioned on this forum much).


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## trip1eX

I liked WMC. It was missing a good hardware client though. That ultimately doomed it for me.


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## krkaufman

trip1eX said:


> I liked WMC. It was missing a good hardware client though. That ultimately doomed it for me.


Xbox360s worked pretty well for us, though a thinner client would have been preferred. I was glad to have jumped over to TiVo, though, just ahead of the Xfinity app being pulled from the 360. (deja vu) I still have to shake my head at Microsoft bailing on such a promising product.


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## NashGuy

krkaufman said:


> Xbox360s worked pretty well for us, though a thinner client would have been preferred. I was glad to have jumped over to TiVo, though, just ahead of the Xfinity app being pulled from the 360. (deja vu) I still have to shake my head at Microsoft bailing on such a promising product.


Yeah. Imagine if Microsoft had used the underpinnings of Windows and WMC to create a $99 app-based Roku-type streaming device but with extensions to support external cable/OTA DVR functionality. The war for the living room may have played out every differently. But instead, Microsoft wanted to focus everything on the decidedly non-thin-client XBox 360, an expensive game console for which TV was a bonus add-on. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20...


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## tenthplanet

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. Imagine if Microsoft had used the underpinnings of Windows and WMC to create a $99 app-based Roku-type streaming device but with extensions to support external cable/OTA DVR functionality. The war for the living room may have played out every differently. But instead, Microsoft wanted to focus everything on the decidedly non-thin-client XBox 360, an expensive game console for which TV was a bonus add-on. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20...


 A good game console is expensive, Microsoft thought the future was gaming and TV was an after thought. Roku makes very little money on their devices and Amazon can sell things with zero profit in the short term. Apple and Nvidia are probably make a decent profit on theirs. The war for the living room is being won by content owners, it was always headed there.


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## slowbiscuit

NashGuy said:


> It may be more powerful and customizable than the average OTA DVR user needs but then you don't have to dive into all that stuff if you don't want. It's a pretty simple, straightforward, cheap solution, IMO. Only real hassle was getting it initially installed and configured. As I say, this isn't something to suggest to your mom but for tech-inclined folks who don't mind a DIY project, it's a viable option (and not one I've seen mentioned on this forum much).


LOL Myth is certainly cheap but I would hardly say it's simple. Quite the opposite in fact, but in return you have lots of configurable stuff.


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## gary.buhrmaster

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL Myth is certainly cheap but I would hardly say it's simple.


MythTV has always been by developers, for developers. If you are not comfortable with a command line in linux you likely are eventually going to find yourself running into an issue that will require you to learn, or get out of the (hot) kitchen. That is a not an atypical part of the free open source solutions in the space (good user documentation for users is hard, and few (to no one) in many developer centric projects is interested in doing it).


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## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. Imagine if Microsoft had used the underpinnings of Windows and WMC to create a $99 app-based Roku-type streaming device but with extensions to support external cable/OTA DVR functionality. The war for the living room may have played out every differently. But instead, Microsoft wanted to focus everything on the decidedly non-thin-client XBox 360, an expensive game console for which TV was a bonus add-on. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20...


I think Microsoft was smart to mostly stay out of the TV market and bail out of it from WMC. As much as a PC DVR would have been nirvana, it would never have gained traction, and the pay TV providers just don't want anyone else providing the boxes to the end user. And now the whole pay TV market is dying, so there's that.


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## wizwor

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. Imagine if Microsoft had used the underpinnings of Windows and WMC to create a $99 app-based Roku-type streaming device but with extensions to support external cable/OTA DVR functionality. The war for the living room may have played out every differently. But instead, Microsoft wanted to focus everything on the decidedly non-thin-client XBox 360, an expensive game console for which TV was a bonus add-on. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20...


My understanding is that they are doing OK with that game console.


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## NashGuy

wizwor said:


> My understanding is that they are doing OK with that game console.


My understanding is that corporations like to increase profits and shareholder value, and having a whole other product line, such as a TV streaming device that competes with Roku and Fire TV, is a missed opportunity for Microsoft. Yes, the Xbox does well for them but that's a separate thing.


----------



## NashGuy

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL Myth is certainly cheap but I would hardly say it's simple. Quite the opposite in fact, but in return you have lots of configurable stuff.


I dunno. Maybe stuff you find difficult, I find simple? Once I got it up and running, it hasn't really been much different than using any other DVR. Set up recordings. Watch recordings. Delete recordings. YMMV.

As I said above, sometimes I find that the front-end app I use on my Apple TV has disconnected from the back-end MythTV server on my Mac, in which case I just use the MythTV start/stop applet on the Mac to reboot the server. Then all is well again.


----------



## dadrepus

So, just in case people were getting frustrated with Tivo's guide service and wanted to go the Silicondust/Plex route, just to let you know Plex uses Rovi/Tivo for it's guide data. I just realized this today when logging into Live TV on Plex Server and have "Little snitch application" pop up and ask me if it was OK to connect to Rovi? Imagine that


----------



## spiderpumpkin

dadrepus said:


> So, just in case people were getting frustrated with Tivo's guide service and wanted to go the Silicondust/Plex route, just to let you know Plex uses Rovi/Tivo for it's guide data. I just realized this today when logging into Live TV on Plex Server and have "Little snitch application" pop up and ask me if it was OK to connect to Rovi? Imagine that


I've been using a HDHR Quatro with Channels DVR and they use the Silicondust channel guide. I haven't noticed any guide errors.


----------



## dadrepus

spiderpumpkin said:


> I've been using a HDHR Quatro with Channels DVR and they use the Gracenote channel guide. I haven't noticed any guide errors.


I wish Plex used Gracenote. Lucky man.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

spiderpumpkin said:


> I've been using a HDHR Quatro with Channels DVR and they use the Silicondust channel guide. I haven't noticed any guide errors.


As I recall it being stated, the Channels DVR service actually uses Gracenote guide data directly (that is (a bit of) what your $8/mo DVR subscription pays for, in addition to other licensing and/or development). Only the Live TV version of Channels is using the SD derived (now and the next few hours) guide data (which is also provided by Gracenote).


----------



## slowbiscuit

gary.buhrmaster said:


> MythTV has always been by developers, for developers. If you are not comfortable with a command line in linux you likely are eventually going to find yourself running into an issue that will require you to learn, or get out of the (hot) kitchen. That is a not an atypical part of the free open source solutions in the space (good user documentation for users is hard, and few (to no one) in many developer centric projects is interested in doing it).


Correct, and exactly why I said it is in no way a 'simple' DVR solution for the majority. I loved it, but I was a Linux dev and sysadmin.


----------



## NashGuy

tenthplanet said:


> A good game console is expensive, Microsoft thought the future was gaming and TV was an after thought. Roku makes very little money on their devices and Amazon can sell things with zero profit in the short term. Apple and Nvidia are probably make a decent profit on theirs. The war for the living room is being won by content owners, it was always headed there.


Except Roku is the MAJOR exception to that rule. They're not content-owners. They make their money on advertising, plus subscription commissions. Maybe pursuing that kind of profit strategy in the living room would have been unusual for Microsoft. I'm just saying that the opportunity was there for them if they had chosen to pursue it. They had the tech, they had the size, they had the relationships with the app developers. <shrug> Anyhow, it's just one of those historical "what-ifs".

And I'd be curious to know what the profit margin is on the Apple TV 4K. I tend to think it's significantly below other Apple hardware. It's essentially an iPad Pro without the touchscreen but with a fancy touchpad remote. When the 2nd gen iPad Pro and the Apple TV 4K were both introduced in 2017 (with the same A10X chip), the former started at $799 and the latter at only $179. Hard to think that the build cost of the iPad Pro was $620 more.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> And I'd be curious to know what the profit margin is on the Apple TV 4K. I tend to think it's significantly below other Apple hardware. It's essentially an iPad Pro without the touchscreen but with a fancy touchpad remote. When the 2nd gen iPad Pro and the Apple TV 4K were both introduced in 2017 (with the same A10X chip), the former started at $799 and the latter at only $179. Hard to think that the build cost of the iPad Pro was $620 more.


Proportionally it's probably similar or even better, as there is no battery or screen in the ATV.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> Proportionally it's probably similar or even better, as there is no battery or screen in the ATV.


Decided to do a bit of Googling to see if I could find any firm numbers. All I found were figures for the iPad 3rd Gen (2012) and the Apple TV 2nd Gen (2010). The cheapest iteration of the former had a BOM of $236.95 and a retail price of $399, meaning that only 59.4% of the retail price was consumed by the cost of materials. The latter had a BOM of $61.98 and a retail price of $99, therefore a slightly higher 62.6% share of the retail price was consumed by the BOM. So at least between those two models, the iPad was more profitable for Apple, although not by much.

I would point out too that when the Apple TV hit the 4th Gen (adding in access to a full App Store, a re-designed rechargeable remote with glass track pad, and more powerful Apple-designed chips), its internals became much more similar to that of an iPad. So I think, if anything, the iPad has probably increased its profitability margin over the Apple TV. But the profit margins on the Apple TV 4K are probably still higher than I had originally thought.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> I would point out too that when the Apple TV hit the 4th Gen (adding in access to a full App Store, a re-designed rechargeable remote with glass track pad, and more powerful Apple-designed chips), its internals became much more similar to that of an iPad. So I think, if anything, the iPad has probably increased its profitability margin over the Apple TV. But the profit margins on the Apple TV 4K are probably still higher than I had originally thought.


The ATV must have decent margins. Look at the cost of the ATV compared to the Roku or other similar devices.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> The ATV must have decent margins. Look at the cost of the ATV compared to the Roku or other similar devices.


Well, the low cost of Roku and Fire TV devices are what force Apple to not charge any more than they do for the ATV and (I believe) accept at least somewhat lower margins on the product than they do for iPhones and iPads. But I don't think we can conclude all that much about the ATV's margins by looking at the prices for Rokus and Fire TVs, which follow completely different business models. Those devices are mainly about advertising and related businesses (subscriptions, Prime memberships, Amazon sales, etc.). I wonder whether Roku and Amazon make any profit at all on sales of their ~$40 4K HDR devices. They don't really need to. Those guys were always mainly concerned about scaling up their user bases, crowding out competitors, and making money on those buyers in other ways, outside of the hardware sale.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Well, the low cost of Roku and Fire TV devices are what force Apple to not charge any more than they do for the ATV and (I believe) accept at least somewhat lower margins on the product than they do for iPhones and iPads. But I don't think we can conclude all that much about the ATV's margins by looking at the prices for Rokus and Fire TVs, which follow completely different business models. Those devices are mainly about advertising and related businesses (subscriptions, Prime memberships, Amazon sales, etc.). I wonder whether Roku and Amazon make any profit at all on sales of their ~$40 4K HDR devices. They don't really need to. Those guys were always mainly concerned about scaling up their user bases, crowding out competitors, and making money on those buyers in other ways, outside of the hardware sale.


That's a fair point, but when Roku and Amazon are selling devices for $40, even if they are taking a bit of a loss, you know Apple is making a healthy profit when theirs starts at $179.


----------



## tenthplanet

Bigg said:


> That's a fair point, but when Roku and Amazon are selling devices for $40, even if they are taking a bit of a loss, you know Apple is making a healthy profit when theirs starts at $179.


The fairer comparison would be to a Roku Ultra, which has wired ethernet. Entry model streamers are wireless only, wi-fi is a no fly for people in apartments sometimes.


----------



## Bigg

tenthplanet said:


> The fairer comparison would be to a Roku Ultra, which has wired ethernet. Entry model streamers are wireless only, wi-fi is a no fly for people in apartments sometimes.


Fair enough, but that's still $100 to $180.


----------



## Lurker1

If not TiVo, then who? [Cord Cutter Edition]


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> Fair enough, but that's still $100 to $180.


Well, I'd still say that the cost of components in an Apple TV 4K are more expensive than a Roku Ultra. Just compare Apple's Siri rechargeable remote with touchpad and accelerometer+gyro for gaming. (That remote by itself retails for $59, which is $40 more than the old-style Apple TV remote.) And consider the beefier processor the box has, plus support for Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos.

Do those hardware improvements equal another $80 in cost? No, probably not. But again, Roku is making money from putting ads in their menu UI and ads in the content in The Roku Channel.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Well, I'd still say that the cost of components in an Apple TV 4K are more expensive than a Roku Ultra. Just compare Apple's Siri rechargeable remote with touchpad and accelerometer+gyro for gaming. (That remote by itself retails for $59, which is $40 more than the old-style Apple TV remote.) And consider the beefier processor the box has, plus support for Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos.
> 
> Do those hardware improvements equal another $80 in cost? No, probably not. But again, Roku is making money from putting ads in their menu UI and ads in the content in The Roku Channel.


All true. I'd be shocked if Apple didn't have a health percentage margin on the ATV though, even if the raw dollars pale in comparison to iPhones and iPads.


----------



## trip1eX

Apple has about a ~20% profit margin. So on a $180 ATV they make somewhere in the neighborhood of ~$36.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> Apple has about a ~20% profit margin. So on a $180 ATV they make somewhere in the neighborhood of ~$36.


OK. But the (completely beside the point of this thread) back-and-forth that Bigg and I were having is whether the ATV 4K has a lower-than-typical profit margin versus other Apple hardware.

Anyhoo, price-wise, there are two major classes of streamers: Roku and Fire TV at the less expensive end ($30-100) and Apple TV and Nvidia Shield Android TV at the more expensive end ($150-200). Most folks won't find that the added cost of the latter pair justify the additional expense over the former pair.

Love my ATV4K but I'm still at least interested in Android TV. Rumor is that Google is *finally* going to release a new hero device for the platform in 2020. A Pixel Player, perhaps? If they don't booger up the home screen with ads (which has apparently begun happening on some Android TV retail devices), I might be interested in eventually switching over to it. We'll see...


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> OK. But the (completely beside the point of this thread) back-and-forth that Bigg and I were having is whether the ATV 4K has a lower-than-typical profit margin versus other Apple hardware.
> 
> Anyhoo, price-wise, there are two major classes of streamers: Roku and Fire TV at the less expensive end ($30-100) and Apple TV and Nvidia Shield Android TV at the more expensive end ($150-200). Most folks won't find that the added cost of the latter pair justify the additional expense over the former pair.
> 
> Love my ATV4K but I'm still at least interested in Android TV. Rumor is that Google is *finally* going to release a new hero device for the platform in 2020. A Pixel Player, perhaps? If they don't booger up the home screen with ads (which has apparently begun happening on some Android TV retail devices), I might be interested in eventually switching over to it. We'll see...


I never thought as the Nvida Shield and ATV being in the same class. Price-wise they are. But Shield strikes me as more of a hobbyist device. Apple is more like a luxury version of a Roku or Fire TV sorta speak.

And Apple's 20% profit margin is a good ballpark figure for what they likely make on an ATV.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> And I'd be curious to know what the profit margin is on the Apple TV 4K. I tend to think it's significantly below other Apple hardware. It's essentially an iPad Pro without the touchscreen but with a fancy touchpad remote. When the 2nd gen iPad Pro and the Apple TV 4K were both introduced in 2017 (with the same A10X chip), the former started at $799 and the latter at only $179. Hard to think that the build cost of the iPad Pro was $620 more.


On the other hand the last 9.7" low end iPad is $329 and has a regular A10 in it and came out in March 2018.

I could see something like an ATV when it was released having a lower profit margin. I think that's true of all their hardware. For something like the ATV, where Apple isn't going to release a new one annually, they could start out with a lower profit margin than usual knowing it's going to be on the market for ~3-5 years and towards the end of its life would become a higher profit margin product than usual.


----------



## Charles R

trip1eX said:


> I never thought as the Nvida Shield and ATV being in the same class.


Having used both over the years they are (far more) similar than different. The biggest being the OS and its native support. For my use set they overlap roughly 95% of the time. With the Shield supporting (local) HD audio bitstreaming being an important advantage (in my case). However overall it's the support of or lack of support for "fringe" streaming apps that would probably be the deciding factor.


----------



## JLV03

Not sure if it has been brought up in this thread, but I've been experimenting with FitzyTV on a Firestick when I travel.

I haven't splurged for the DVR capabilities yet, but it works great to have access to a nice chunk of the TVE channels I receive as part of my cable package.

Cloud DVR & Streaming TV Platform | FitzyTV


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Anyhoo, price-wise, there are two major classes of streamers: Roku and Fire TV at the less expensive end ($30-100) and Apple TV and Nvidia Shield Android TV at the more expensive end ($150-200). Most folks won't find that the added cost of the latter pair justify the additional expense over the former pair.


The Shield is a niche device, but the ATV has a pretty wide appeal among people who are bought into the Apple ecosystem with the iPhone, iPad, Mac, Apple Watch, Airpods, etc.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

@mschnebly re your post in the pre-roll ads thread:



mschnebly said:


> Speaking of a NAS with Channels... I have a Synology that I use but I've also used one of those little WD My Cloud Home drives and it works perfectly with Channels. A cheap solution.


Which Synology NAS and which drive(s) do you use for Channels now? Nice to know the little My Cloud drive is also good enough, but I've gotten ambitious here.


----------



## mschnebly

Pokemon_Dad said:


> @mschnebly re your post in the pre-roll ads thread:
> 
> Which Synology NAS and which drive(s) do you use for Channels now? Nice to know the little My Cloud drive is also good enough, but I've gotten ambitious here.


I have a DS918+ with 4 Seagate IronWolf 4TB NAS drives. They are really quiet drives.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mschnebly said:


> I have a DS918+ with 4 Seagate IronWolf 4TB NAS drives. They are really quiet drives.


Nice! Thanks, that's the sort of info we need to know. The IronWolf drives look to be solid alternatives to WD Reds. The 7200 rpm IronWolf Pro model drives would probably be overkill, would run hotter, and use more power.

Interesting about the 4 bays. I was thinking the 2-bay 718+ would be enough for Channels only, in a RAID1 mirror config, but I suppose it depends on your local needs. I run my cameras and music off two other servers.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> The Shield is a niche device, but the ATV has a pretty wide appeal among people who are bought into the Apple ecosystem with the iPhone, iPad, Mac, Apple Watch, Airpods, etc.


Yeah, I'd say that Shield TV mainly appeals to home theater guys who maintain their own local library of rips, and maybe to some gamers.

As you say, the ATV appeals to folks already in the Apple ecosystem but I think it also appeals to folks who want a high-quality streamer -- excellent 4K upscaling, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, automatic frame-rate and dynamic-range switching, wide range of well-supported apps, strong enough hardware specs to ensure smooth performance, with a UI/UX that's largely consistent and ad-free. I don't use iPhones or iPads any more and I'm arguably as much in the Google as Apple ecosystem now but I prefer the ATV because I think it's the best all-round streamer in its own right. (Its new support for the $5/mo Apple TV+ service, as well as the $5/mo Apple Arcade game service and wireless PS4 and Xbox controllers is all just icing on the cake.)


----------



## mschnebly

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Nice! Thanks, that's the sort of info we need to know. The IronWolf drives look to be solid alternatives to WD Reds. The 7200 rpm IronWolf Pro model drives would probably be overkill, would run hotter, and use more power.
> 
> Interesting about the 4 bays. I was thinking the 2-bay 718+ would be enough for Channels only, in a RAID1 mirror config, but I suppose it depends on your local needs. I run my cameras and music off two other servers.


Yeah, I don't just use it for Channels. It's my primary backup for our files, programs, etc and soon for some cameras. The nice thing about Channels is unless you are watching something or recording something it doesn't touch the drives.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, I'd say that Shield TV mainly appeals to home theater guys who maintain their own local library of rips, and maybe to some gamers.
> 
> As you say, the ATV appeals to folks already in the Apple ecosystem but I think it also appeals to folks who want a high-quality streamer -- excellent 4K upscaling, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, automatic frame-rate and dynamic-range switching, wide range of well-supported apps, strong enough hardware specs to ensure smooth performance, with a UI/UX that's largely consistent and ad-free.


To an extent, but people like myself who want to be on relatively agnostic platforms prefer Roku, and people in the Amazon ecosystem prefer the Fire TV.


----------



## wizwor

Bigg said:


> To an extent, but people like myself who want to be on relatively agnostic platforms prefer Roku, and people in the Amazon ecosystem prefer the Fire TV.


I think you mean that *you* prefer agnostic (ask the folks at mediamall or videobuzz exactly how agnostic Roku is). Please do not pretend to speak for the rest of us. I have had a LOT of experience with Roku. I dislike the Roku streamers because they are always a little bit broken and strongly dislike the company for their handling of that situation. I prefer the Amazon ecosystem because it is BETTER and LESS EXPENSIVE to buy and own.

Roku has fired their forum leader RokuShawnS and reincarnated their user community, so I can no longer link LONG threads detailing the relentless failures of the company, but believe me, unless you replace your Rokus every couple years, you will end up with a broken streamer after some forced update. The company will deny the problem, not (usually) allow you to restore a working OS, and eventually fix the problem without ever acknowledging it existed -- usually just in time for the next forced update.

On the other hand, I think the TCL Roku TVs are pretty spectacular. Of course, I have a $25 4K Fire TV Stick plugged into each one.


----------



## Sparky1234

My problem with streaming is it takes too long to sift through all the available data.


----------



## wizwor

Sparky1234 said:


> My problem with streaming is it takes too long to sift through all the available data.


That's not really a 'streaming' issue. More of a user interface problem. If you stream via the Recast EPG, it works like cable. The 'by appointment' viewing suits me too.


----------



## Bigg

wizwor said:


> I think you mean that *you* prefer agnostic (ask the folks at mediamall or videobuzz exactly how agnostic Roku is). Please do not pretend to speak for the rest of us. I have had a LOT of experience with Roku. I dislike the Roku streamers because they are always a little bit broken and strongly dislike the company for their handling of that situation. I prefer the Amazon ecosystem because it is BETTER and LESS EXPENSIVE to buy and own.


Why are you so mad? I literally said that "people like myself who want to be on relatively agnostic platforms prefer Roku". I never implied that everyone should want to be platform agnostic. However, I would argue that Amazon's ecosystem is far better than Apple's, so I'm not sure where that leaves the Apple TV.



> Roku has fired their forum leader RokuShawnS and reincarnated their user community, so I can no longer link LONG threads detailing the relentless failures of the company, but believe me, unless you replace your Rokus every couple years, you will end up with a broken streamer after some forced update. The company will deny the problem, not (usually) allow you to restore a working OS, and eventually fix the problem without ever acknowledging it existed -- usually just in time for the next forced update.
> 
> On the other hand, I think the TCL Roku TVs are pretty spectacular. Of course, I have a $25 4K Fire TV Stick plugged into each one.


You clearly have some deep hatred for Roku, I'm not sure where that is coming from. I'm not going around hating on Apple TV or Fire TV, even though I prefer to be on an agnostic platform like Roku. I find my Roku to work quite well, yes, their earlier generation hardware has been obsoleted, but that was true of all the streamers, as the first few generations were really slow compared to what we have today, and couldn't handle software updates.


----------



## mdavej

Although I'm 100% Fire TV in my house because of Recast, I actually prefer Roku. The interface is simpler, the hardware is cheap, most of it works with IR, and they are an agnostic platform. And unlike Fire TV, I can easily launch any app over TCP. I've had dozens of Rokus over the years, and not one has ever had a catastrophic failure. Plus, since their stock is up nearly 400% from when I bought it, they've made me enough to buy a really nice car. Thanks Roku!

I don't understand the forum complaints either. The Roku forums have been dead for years, with only a handful of posts per day.


----------



## Sparky1234

wizwor said:


> That's not really a 'streaming' issue. More of a user interface problem. If you stream via the Recast EPG, it works like cable. The 'by appointment' viewing suits me too.


By appointment, how does that work?


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> However, I would argue that Amazon's ecosystem is far better than Apple's, so I'm not sure where that leaves the Apple TV.


Yes, that Fire Phone is amazing. ;-)


----------



## ncted

mdavej said:


> Although I'm 100% Fire TV in my house because of Recast, I actually prefer Roku. The interface is simpler, the hardware is cheap, most of it works with IR, and they are an agnostic platform. And unlike Fire TV, I can easily launch any app over TCP. I've had dozens of Rokus over the years, and not one has ever had a catastrophic failure. Plus, since their stock is up nearly 400% from when I bought it, they've made me enough to buy a really nice car. Thanks Roku!
> 
> I don't understand the forum complaints either. The Roku forums have been dead for years, with only a handful of posts per day.


I'm in the same boat: 100% Firestick due to Recast. The Firestick is fine, but I prefer the Roku's simplicity. That said, I have some complaints:

1. The bugginess. All streamers I've tried require a hard reset just a little too often. Roku is no exception.
2. No mute button. At least Amazon finally added this.
3. Perhaps I've just had Rokus for too long, but it seems like they become obsolete faster than most -- meaning the upgrade cycle is fast as new streaming apps won't support hardware just a couple of years old.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> To an extent, but people like myself who want to be on relatively agnostic platforms prefer Roku, and people in the Amazon ecosystem prefer the Fire TV.


Yeah, being relatively agonistic is a point in Roku's favor, at least ideologically. But in actual day-to-day use, I'm not sure it makes much difference versus Apple TV. There are relatively few important apps that Roku has that Apple TV doesn't. I guess Spotify and Amazon Music would have been the biggest, but Apple TV just added both of those this week. And I don't think Apple is any more or less agnostic than Roku in terms of presenting various options for accessing content that you search for. The search results screen lets you see the different apps that stream the title. (On the contrary, Amazon is very much biased in that regard, promoting their own services while tending to hide competing options under a sub-menu. Or at least that's what Fire TV used to do.)


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, being relatively agonistic is a point in Roku's favor, at least ideologically. But in actual day-to-day use, I'm not sure it makes much difference versus Apple TV. There are relatively few important apps that Roku has that Apple TV doesn't. I guess Spotify and Amazon Music would have been the biggest, but Apple TV just added both of those this week. And I don't think Apple is any more or less agnostic than Roku in terms of presenting various options for accessing content that you search for. The search results screen lets you see the different apps that stream the title. (On the contrary, Amazon is very much biased in that regard, promoting their own services while tending to hide competing options under a sub-menu. Or at least that's what Fire TV used to do.)


With the exception of iTunes, Roku has just about every service or app you've ever heard of. Apple TV doesn't. Also, where's Apple TV's Android app? I'm not saying that ecosystem neutrality is the be-all, end-all to streaming devices, but it does have it's advantages for a mass-market device.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Bigg said:


> With the exception of iTunes, Roku has just about every service or app you've ever heard of. Apple TV doesn't. Also, where's Apple TV's Android app? I'm not saying that ecosystem neutrality is the be-all, end-all to streaming devices, but it does have it's advantages for a mass-market device.


Unfortunately Roku is missing the Channels DVR app in all it's glory.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> With the exception of iTunes, Roku has just about every service or app you've ever heard of. Apple TV doesn't. Also, where's Apple TV's Android app? I'm not saying that ecosystem neutrality is the be-all, end-all to streaming devices, but it does have it's advantages for a mass-market device.


Tell me which apps you use on Roku that aren't on Apple TV. Now, I'll admit that you pretty much can't do any video transactions -- make purchases or rentals -- on Apple TV outside of from Apple itself. (If you want to rent a video from Amazon, for instance, you gotta do it elsewhere, then you can come back and watch it in the Prime Video app on Apple TV.) Meanwhile, I believe Roku may let you do transactions in apps other than their favored one, FandangoNow. But really, what apps are there that Apple TV is still missing that Roku has? Maybe there are a few I can't think of.

(And, as pointed out above, Apple TV does offer the Channels app but Roku doesn't.)


----------



## wizwor

Bigg said:


> Why are you so mad? I literally said that "people like myself who want to be on relatively agnostic platforms prefer Roku". I never implied that everyone should want to be platform agnostic. However, I would argue that Amazon's ecosystem is far better than Apple's, so I'm not sure where that leaves the Apple TV.


Not mad. Just don't understand why everyone has to be part of some constituency. There are no people like you or people like me. There is you, me, and that other guy. And there is no such thing as platform agnostic. All these streamers negotiate exclusive deals. The DVR+ is no more because they could not negotiate a deal with Netflix or Prime. Roku banned PlayOn to make room for profitable apps and banned VideoBuzz to get a deal with YouTube. Nothing agnostic about that.

I don't get the Apple proposal.


Bigg said:


> You clearly have some deep hatred for Roku, I'm not sure where that is coming from. I'm not going around hating on Apple TV or Fire TV, even though I prefer to be on an agnostic platform like Roku. I find my Roku to work quite well, yes, their earlier generation hardware has been obsoleted, but that was true of all the streamers, as the first few generations were really slow compared to what we have today, and couldn't handle software updates.


I bought my first Roku at the recommendation of MediaMall. On October 4, 2012, I bought a Lifetime subscription to PlayOn which came with a Roku LT. I gave away my last Roku devices earlier this year after not using them for a couple years. I stopped using streamers after I installed a Roamio OTA on top of each television. Streaming was 'good enough' and I like one box, one remote. High WAF. Right now, I own two TCL Roku TVs. Just frustration. Most of the time I owned my Rokus, the company was actively blocking PlayOn (the reason I got the Roku). When Roku solicited YouTube for their high end streamers, they blocked VideoBuzz. The whole 'obsolete' charade does not wash with me. When a company cannot maintain software for a product, the right thing to do is stop offering updates -- not break the hardware. The Roku 2 was only three years old the first time it was broken by an update designed for the Roku 3. They had no competition and acted like it.


----------



## wizwor

Sparky1234 said:


> By appointment, how does that work?


By appointment vs on demand. You turn on the TV or DVR at a specified time to watch or record a program.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Whenever you folks are done arguing about the major streaming boxes, I'd like to see more discussion of full TiVo replacement alternatives, which must include a DVR feature. That's how this thread started anyway.


----------



## wmcbrine

NashGuy said:


> But really, what apps are there that Apple TV is still missing that Roku has?


Xfinity is a big one (albeit, no longer relevant to me).


----------



## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Whenever you folks are done arguing about the major streaming boxes, I'd like to see more discussion of full TiVo replacement alternatives, which must include a DVR feature. That's how this thread started anyway.


The one and only option besides a cable company DVR would be Windows Media Center which was covered in the first few posts. Still works fine if you have a PC that can run Windows 7.


----------



## wizwor

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Whenever you folks are done arguing about the major streaming boxes, I'd like to see more discussion of full TiVo replacement alternatives, which must include a DVR feature. That's how this thread started anyway.


Amazon Recast and 4K Sticks. It's closest to TiVo -- local storage of OTA, EPG, no monthly fees. You can add services in the EPG to replace your cable services like Philo and Vue. You can add premium channels like HBO to the EPG if you are a Prime Member. It's called Prime Channels.

There are a lot of streaming services that include a cloud DVR. This conversation really needs to start with what about TiVo you want to replace. Also, if you decide to move on from TiVo (which I do not recommend), you will want to STUDY these arguments because there is a lot of good information from the perspective of a TiVo user.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> The one and only option besides a cable company DVR would be Windows Media Center which was covered in the first few posts. Still works fine if you have a PC that can run Windows 7.


There are other options. And OTA is also a topic here. If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you'll find information so far on Tablo, Channels, HD HomeRun, Plex, MythTV, and others in various combinations of OTA and cable solutions. For cable that includes traditional cable and also streaming and recording IPTV cable content via TV Everywhere in its various incarnations including Channels. As mentioned by @wizwor above there's also the Fire TV Recast in combo with Fire TV streaming solutions, and "cloud DVR" options offered by YouTube TV, Hulu, and others.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Tell me which apps you use on Roku that aren't on Apple TV.


I don't even know, but I'm guessing some of them aren't available on Apple TV. There are all sorts of specialty channels on Roku. I only have around 20, but still, I like the selection, and finding news channels from other countries.



wizwor said:


> Not mad. Just don't understand why everyone has to be part of some constituency.


You sure sounded mad. I clearly wasn't saying that everyone would/should want to be on an agnostic platform, but for people like me who, Roku is the answer.



> And there is no such thing as platform agnostic.


Roku is about as close as you're going to get to an agnostic platform. So for all practical purposes, it is.

I don't get the Apple proposal.



> Most of the time I owned my Rokus, the company was actively blocking PlayOn (the reason I got the Roku). When Roku solicited YouTube for their high end streamers, they blocked VideoBuzz.


From what I could Google in 30 seconds, those both had some serious copyright issues. Roku had to cover their derriere.



> The whole 'obsolete' charade does not wash with me. When a company cannot maintain software for a product, the right thing to do is stop offering updates -- not break the hardware. The Roku 2 was only three years old the first time it was broken by an update designed for the Roku 3. They had no competition and acted like it.


I'd love for everything to work forever, but that just isn't the real world. It's getting a lot better as computing power in these devices has matured, but you really can't fault Roku for not being able to support really old hardware. I had a Roku 2, and it worked for a long time, albeit with significantly reduced functionality compared to newer devices.


----------



## wizwor

Bigg said:


> From what I could Google in 30 seconds, those *both had some serious copyright issues*. Roku had to cover their derriere.


Playon has been around as long as Roku and has never even been sued. Anthony Wood, on the other hand...

_This lawsuit pitted defendant ReplayTV and its new owner, SonicBlue, against several prominent plaintiffs, that is, most of the big Hollywood studios; all the TV networks; and several large cable networks.

In whichever way that argument is concluded, in the end, the aggressive-ness with which ReplayTV pursued ad-skipping and program-sharing features._​
Search:replaytv

Which is why TiVo won the DVR war.

VideoBuzz was bounced from the Roku because YouTube asked Roku to ban the app. While VB was in exile, Roku supported YouTube on Plex, PlayOn, and What's On apps.

Roku panders. Maybe because Wood is gun shy, but pandering is pandering. Besides, what is the advantage of this so called 'agnostic' feature you speak of? You get to choose from two DVR options instead of three?










Bigg said:


> I'd love for everything to work forever, but that just isn't the real world. It's getting a lot better as computing power in these devices has matured, but you really can't fault Roku for not being able to support really old hardware. I had a Roku 2, and it worked for a long time, albeit with significantly reduced functionality compared to newer devices.


I fault Roku for pushing buggy updates to their legacy devices and going to great pains to ensure that consumers are forced to take the updates...

Two days ago: New 9.2.0 build 4100-46 update causes Roku Media P... - Roku Community
2018:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Roku/comments/a1pa0e
2018: Roku 2 will not play anything after update
2017: Re: 7.0 firmware broke my Roku 2 XS - Page 21 - Roku Community
2015: 7.0 firmware broke my Roku 2 XS - Roku Community (read all 21 pages)
2015: Even with FW update Roku still freezing and rebooting?

BTW, our first Netflix client was an Insignia blu-ray player. Not only did they stream Netflix, but you could plug in a disk and watch your own media. We replaced those with Sony SMP-N200 streamers which supported a LOT of apps. We replaced those with Rokus when we started using PlayOn. Sony supported the SMP-N200 well past its shelf life and eventually the SMP-N200 and PlayOn played nice.


----------



## Sparky1234

wizwor said:


> By appointment vs on demand. You turn on the TV or DVR at a specified time to watch or record a program.


Thanks!


----------



## mschnebly

Bigg said:


> I don't even know, but I'm guessing some of them aren't available on Apple TV. There are all sorts of specialty channels on Roku. I only have around 20, but still, I like the selection, and finding news channels from other countries.
> 
> You sure sounded mad. I clearly wasn't saying that everyone would/should want to be on an agnostic platform, but for people like me who, Roku is the answer.
> 
> Roku is about as close as you're going to get to an agnostic platform. So for all practical purposes, it is.
> 
> I don't get the Apple proposal.
> 
> From what I could Google in 30 seconds, those both had some serious copyright issues. Roku had to cover their derriere.
> 
> I'd love for everything to work forever, but that just isn't the real world. It's getting a lot better as computing power in these devices has matured, but you really can't fault Roku for not being able to support really old hardware. I had a Roku 2, and it worked for a long time, albeit with significantly reduced functionality compared to newer devices.


I was like you and just didn't get the Apple TV since it was expensive. Then I got one free with a subscription of, I think, DirecTV Now. I love it. I don't know what there is about it (no it's not magical ) but it just works so smooth. That TV app it has is really nice. It also has a Home Screen feature that will keep multiple devices matched up the same. I have 2 now but I still use my Roku Ultra in one room and it works great too.


----------



## wizwor

Got my first via the DirecTV Now promotion. I already had a $102.49 on order at Best Buy. Gave one to my iBoy and kept one for myself. Even iBoy could not love ATV. TV to him is Netflix on a 27" curved monitor. I don't care for the grid style interface and hated the remote.

One of the great things about the TCL Roku TVs is that you can configure them to return to a specific input or the last used input at power up. One of mine powers on to OTA. The other to a 4K FTV stick (because there is no coax or ethernet nearby). The only time I see the tiled interface is when I want to stream something.


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## Pokemon_Dad

I had a Roku for years and hardly used it. I finally cancelled Roku after the service failed during Mayweather vs. McGregor, which left me scrambling to plug a laptop into the side of our TV and buy into the Showtime stream while a dozen restless teenage boys our son had invited over began roughhousing. Major structural damage was averted thanks to that little laptop!

I'm told Apple TV failed that night too. Apparently both depended on a third-party cable backbone that collapsed under the unexpected surge of UFC traffic, but that was the last straw for me. I'd originally gotten Roku as a music streamer as well as a video source, but they never got serious about developing for music or adding quality music services after Apple bought Mog, and I'd long since moved on to other platforms for music and video streaming. For music it's all Squeezebox here now.

What did we use for video streaming instead? The EDGE is too little too late for us. The embedded apps in TiVo and our old big screen Sony were all we needed for a long time. When those apps began "aging out" in the TV and the v2 Minis (and the Bolt was too defectively noisy to take out of the server closet), I decided to try Fire TV.

I added a Fire TV Stick 4K to the Sony, and that little thing integrated with the TV and its remote very well. We loved it, so I then replaced an old Samsung TV — so ancient it had only a Yahoo app — with an Insignia Fire TV. Each TV still has a TiVo Mini attached, but all streaming is via Fire TV which works like a dream. We use Fire TV for Netflix as much as for Prime Video, plus it supports the Channels app and a gazillion other non-Amazon services well.

So that's our streaming solution now. But this thread is also about DVRs, for a complete TiVo alternative. I've begun experimenting with HD HomeRun and Channels Plus, for live and recorded OTA and cable IPTV (TV Everywhere) video via apps for Fire TV as well as our computers, phones, and tablets.


----------



## NashGuy

wmcbrine said:


> Xfinity is a big one (albeit, no longer relevant to me).


Ah yes, that's true. Xfinity Stream first came to Roku, then Samsung smart TV, then finally LG smart TV recently. Not bringing the app (yet, anyhow) to Apple TV, Fire TV or Android TV is, I'm sure, a purely political/business decision on Comcast's part. They showed off an Android TV version of the app running on the Shield TV a couple years ago. So I expect we'll at least see them deploy that on Sony smart TVs running Android TV before long.

But I think Comcast is hesitant as to whether or not they want to support their video competitors Amazon and Apple any further than they have already. Apple has more leverage with Comcast than Amazon, given that Xfinity Mobile very much needs to be able to sell and support iPhones. (Apple has the same kind of leverage with Charter and I'd say that was a factor in Charter's decision to fully support Apple TV and even agree to sell those boxes to their customers.) So, in the end, I kinda still expect to see the Xfinity Stream app come to Apple TV. (I'm sure Comcast already has it running in their labs; once you've developed an iOS app, porting it to tvOS isn't that much effort.) Whether or not the Stream app comes to Fire TV and Android TV (outside of Sony smart TVs) is a much iffier proposition, I'd say.


----------



## wizwor

wmcbrine said:


> Xfinity is a big one (albeit, no longer relevant to me).


Yup. When someone tells me they are looking for a streamer to work with Comcast, there is no option other than the Roku. Unless things have changed, you will spend a LOT of time re-entering credentials.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

wizwor said:


> Yup. When someone tells me they are looking for a streamer to work with Comcast, there is no option other than the Roku. Unless things have changed, you will spend a LOT of time re-entering credentials.


For DIYers, Channels will access your Xfinity Stream live TV content using TV Everywhere (which is the back end for Stream and many other services), allowing you to record and stream via web browsers and apps for iOS, Apple TV, Fire TV, and Android. Deets: Channels - TV Everywhere


----------



## heyted

An HDHomeRun combined with MythTV can be something to consider for those that are looking for a TiVo replacement. While you don't need to be a developer, I agree with what others have said in this thread about needing to be comfortable working with the command line and not being the type that wants an easy setup. Once it is installed, it is fairly easy to use. My wife uses it with ease, and she is not very tech savvy.


> If you want to set up recordings manually (based on channel number and time), that's free.


Another free option for recording shows with MythTV is to use Mythrecmaze which is available for free here. Mythrecmaze allows you to follow a show on tvmaze.com to have MythTV automatically record all new episodes of the show.

Another free guide data option for owners of an HDHomeRun is to use guide data from SiliconDust. Hdhrepg2myth, which is available for free here, inserts guide data for live TV directly into MythTV. Alternatively, SiliconDust's own Kodi software can be used to watch live TV with free guide data, and MythTV can be used for making and viewing recordings -- all without having to exit Kodi.


----------



## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> There are other options. And OTA is also a topic here. If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you'll find information so far on Tablo, Channels, HD HomeRun, Plex, MythTV, and others in various combinations of OTA and cable solutions. For cable that includes traditional cable and also streaming and recording IPTV cable content via TV Everywhere in its various incarnations including Channels. As mentioned by @wizwor above there's also the Fire TV Recast in combo with Fire TV streaming solutions, and "cloud DVR" options offered by YouTube TV, Hulu, and others.


None of those can do cable card like TiVo, hence cannot replace it. So I stand by my statement that WMC is the only true alternative / direct replacement as it's the only one that can record copy protected cable tv.

For the record, I've tried all of the above except Tablo, and currently use Recast and AT&T TV Now.


----------



## Bigg

wizwor said:


> Roku panders. Maybe because Wood is gun shy, but pandering is pandering. Besides, what is the advantage of this so called 'agnostic' feature you speak of? You get to choose from two DVR options instead of three?



Alright, we get it you have a deep hatred of Roku. Roku is still be far the closest to an agnostic platform that has nearly everything. Of course someone will always find an oddball app that's not on Roku, but any developer not on Roku is putting themselves at a HUGE disadvantage.

I'm not going to stop liking Roku, it's the best streaming platform out there. I'm not saying I'd never switch if something better came along, but Roku is doing pretty good.​


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> None of those can do cable card like TiVo, hence cannot replace it. So I stand by my statement that WMC is the only true alternative / direct replacement as it's the only one that can record copy protected cable tv.
> 
> For the record, I've tried all of the above except Tablo, and currently use Recast and AT&T TV Now.


Yes, none of those can do CableCARD like TiVo, but what if you're trying to replace a TiVo OTA box? Also, at a certain point in moving away from TiVo, even those with TiVo cable boxes may be tempted to completely cut the cord and go to OTA plus streaming services. Sounds like you tried that yourself, and weren't satisfied. I get it.

There's still hope the forthcoming HD HomeRun PRIME 6 will change the CableCARD calculus. But that box may be feature-limited due to potential legal liabilities, if it ever shows up at all. That would leave us with TV Everywhere, which Channels uses to stream and record using your cable credentials. However the picture quality, especially when the streams first start, is not always as good as direct cable access.


----------



## NashGuy

heyted said:


> An HDHomeRun combined with MythTV can be something to consider for those that are looking for a TiVo replacement. While you don't need to be a developer, I agree with what others have said in this thread about needing to be comfortable working with the command line and not being the type that wants an easy setup. Once it is installed, it is fairly easy to use. My wife uses it with ease, and she is not very tech savvy.


At least with the MacPorts version of MythTV, I don't *think* you have to do anything in the command line to get it installed and running. But I'm not 100% sure, because at the time I did that installation, I also did some other stuff on my Mac to try to automate daily downloads of free XML program guide listings using a command-line script, so I know I was mucking around in Terminal for that. IIRC, I spent a lot more time on that side project than I did with the actual MythTV installation and configuration. I also recall that MacOS didn't by default include some Java libraries that I needed for something, and I had to fetch and install those via command line too, but I can't recall if those libraries were needed for MythTV or for the guide data project I was working on.


----------



## NashGuy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> There's still hope the forthcoming HD HomeRun PRIME 6 will change the CableCARD calculus. But that box may be feature-limited due to potential legal liabilities, if it ever shows up at all. That would leave us with TV Everywhere, which Channels uses to stream and record using your cable credentials. However the picture quality, especially when the streams first start, is not always as good as direct cable access.


In the coming months/years, I really think the vast majority of folks who want cable TV service with DVR will decide that they're fine with cloud DVR (or even _prefer_ it over local DVR). I think that'll be true of quite a few TiVo users too. Between your local cable TV operator and OTT options like AT&T TV, Hulu Live, and YouTube TV, you'll have several options in terms of UI, feature set, etc. DVR will just be one of several different considerations when choosing your provider. There's just not going to be a big enough retail market to matter much when it comes to local DVR solutions for cable TV. I'm not saying the PRIME 6 won't ever get released but I just can't see it ever making much money for Silicon Dust and it sure wouldn't be worth the potential legal liabilities you're referencing. So if it does see the light of day, I really doubt that it'll allow the recording of copy-protected cable channels.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> In the coming months/years, I really think the vast majority of folks who want cable TV service with DVR will decide that they're fine with cloud DVR (or even _prefer_ it over local DVR). I think that'll be true of quite a few TiVo users too. Between your local cable TV operator and OTT options like AT&T TV, Hulu Live, and YouTube TV, you'll have several options in terms of UI, feature set, etc. DVR will just be one of several different considerations when choosing your provider. There's just not going to be a big enough retail market to matter much when it comes to local DVR solutions for cable TV. I'm not saying the PRIME 6 won't ever get released but I just can't see it ever making much money for Silicon Dust and it sure wouldn't be worth the potential legal liabilities you're referencing. So if it does see the light of day, I really doubt that it'll allow the recording of copy-protected cable channels.


^^^This. SiliconDust has some products aimed at hotels and broadcasters who need to ingest a bunch of digital cable channels, but I don't think the PRIME 6 fits into any of those use cases. Moving forward, the only retail DVRs will be OTA. The last bastion of local DVRs will be satellite, but in that case the satellite provider controls the hardware and software.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> Moving forward, the only retail DVRs will be OTA. The last bastion of local DVRs will be satellite, but in that case the satellite provider controls the hardware and software.


Yup. And if/when that long-speculated merger of DirecTV and DISH finally happens, we'll probably see just one type of satellite DVR going forward. I'm thinking it'll be a DirecTV Hopper.


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## wizwor

Which leaves OTA for TiVo. If TiVo is agile enough to adjust, the company could be around for a long time. TiVo should look at the failed Channel Master DVR+ as a model of what an OTA DVR should be then execute on the vision...

Standalone operation: No call home, PSIP EPG
Affordability: No monthly fees
Extensibility: External storage expansion; integrated access to storage on other DVRs (all storage in a household appear as a single library)
Antenna Sharing: Out of home viewing other than via a moble device
Premium Services: a la Recast; integrated into the guide
Amazon has gotten enough wrong that a competent competitor could win. TiVo knows how to do all the things that would beat Amazon.


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## krkaufman

wizwor said:


> TiVo should look at the failed Channel Master DVR+ as a model of what an OTA DVR should be


This statement baffles me.


----------



## wizwor

krkaufman said:


> This statement baffles me.


I blame union schools. Let me help you...

_TiVo should look at the failed Channel Master DVR+ as a model of what an OTA DVR should be then execute on the vision_​
You need to keep reading until you come to the next punctuation then consider the entirety of the idea.

The DVR+ was an excellent concept but Channel Master failed to execute on the plan. They never worked things out with premium providers like Prime and Netflix -- which they promised from launch. They added a lot of filler channels, but never got the data required to fill out the guide.

Amazon has done some of these things. Integrating Pluto, Philo, Vue, and the premium providers (Prime Channels) into the EPG is just what Channel Master got wrong. Lack of a PSIP EPG, limited streams, and image quality are things TiVo could improve upon.


----------



## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Yes, none of those can do CableCARD like TiVo, but what if you're trying to replace a TiVo OTA box? Also, at a certain point in moving away from TiVo, even those with TiVo cable boxes may be tempted to completely cut the cord and go to OTA plus streaming services. Sounds like you tried that yourself, and weren't satisfied. I get it.
> 
> There's still hope the forthcoming HD HomeRun PRIME 6 will change the CableCARD calculus. But that box may be feature-limited due to potential legal liabilities, if it ever shows up at all. That would leave us with TV Everywhere, which Channels uses to stream and record using your cable credentials. However the picture quality, especially when the streams first start, is not always as good as direct cable access.


Wasn't satisfied? I cut the cord and stopped using TiVo a year ago. When did I ever say otherwise?

Prime 6 is a unicorn. Doesn't exist and never will. Even if it did, without DRM, what's the point?

Channels is close, but recording cable tv streams still requires a cable tv subscription. Not ideal for cord cutters.


----------



## tenthplanet

When the smoke clears Tivo and Amazon will be the last of OTA DVR's. And someday it will only be Amazon.


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## wizwor

tenthplanet said:


> When the smoke clears Tivo and Amazon will be the last of OTA DVR's. And someday it will only be Amazon.


The Tablo TV DVR is a solid product and value. Not going anywhere.


----------



## Mikeguy

tenthplanet said:


> When the smoke clears Tivo and Amazon will be the last of OTA DVR's. And someday it will only be Amazon.


And as we know, Amazon can drop a product line at the drop of a hat.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> Wasn't satisfied? I cut the cord and stopped using TiVo a year ago. When did I ever say otherwise?
> 
> Prime 6 is a unicorn. Doesn't exist and never will. Even if it did, without DRM, what's the point?
> 
> Channels is close, but recording cable tv streams still requires a cable tv subscription. Not ideal for cord cutters.


Sorry. It was the "none of those can do CableCARD like TiVo" idea that threw me for a moment. Glad you're happy with Recast and AT&T TV Now. I'm running a test system in parallel with TiVo to see how close I can get it to match our TiVo usage. TV Everywhere in Channels may be important here at first due to the WAF, but that will also be heavily influenced by the criminal amount cable companies are charging the few of us still paying for full packages.


----------



## smark

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Sorry. It was the "none of those can do CableCARD like TiVo" idea that threw me for a moment. Glad you're happy with Recast and AT&T TV Now. I'm running a test system in parallel with TiVo to see how close I can get it to match our TiVo usage. TV Everywhere in Channels may be important here at first due to the WAF, but that will also be heavily influenced by the criminal amount cable companies are charging the few of us still paying for full packages.


I'd recommend finding the cheapest streaming service with the channels and TV Everywhere logins for the channels you watch and then you can setup Channels to record OTA + the streams.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

smark said:


> I'd recommend finding the cheapest streaming service with the channels and TV Everywhere logins for the channels you watch and then you can setup Channels to record OTA + the streams.


TV Everywhere works that way? As far as I know it will only log into a full cable service like Xfinity, and while some channels offer their own individual TV Everywhere-based apps, those apps still require a cable subscription. Or is there a secret handshake I don't know about?

Based on our viewing habits, with OTA, Netflix, and Prime in place, we're now paying Comcast just to get at one or two cable news channels most of the time. But we can get those news channels via their own websites, or pay a fraction of the confiscatory Comcast price for a live TV streaming service with a cloud DVR.


----------



## mschnebly

Pokemon_Dad said:


> TV Everywhere works that way? As far as I know it will only log into a full cable service like Xfinity, and while some channels offer their own individual TV Everywhere-based apps, those apps still require a cable subscription. Or is there a secret handshake I don't know about?
> 
> Based on our viewing habits, with OTA, Netflix, and Prime in place, we're now paying Comcast just to get at one or two cable news channels most of the time. But we can get those news channels via their own websites, or pay a fraction of the confiscatory Comcast price for a live TV streaming service with a cloud DVR.


I use TV Everywhere with OTA and Youtube TV. I've had no problems yet.


----------



## wmcbrine

mdavej said:


> Channels is close, but recording cable tv streams still requires a cable tv subscription.


Most of the streaming services also work to authorize TV Everywhere. (The selection of channels is less extensive, to be sure.) Here's a comparison chart.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Ah-hah! Thanks. Clearly I haven't dug deep enough into the TVE features of Channels. I keep installing and uninstalling it on various test boxes just to verify basic functions. The final(?) NAS is going in soon.


----------



## mschnebly

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Ah-hah! Thanks. Clearly I haven't dug deep enough into the TVE features of Channels. I keep installing and uninstalling it on various test boxes just to ensure I have access to OTA and the confiscatory Comcast sub we have now. The final(?) NAS is going in soon.


It's a builtin part of Channels now so no installing or anything really. Just pick your service, it scans the channels and adds them into the guide.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mschnebly said:


> It's a builtin part of Channels now so no installing or anything really. Just pick your service, it scans the channels and adds them into the guide.


I uninstalled Channels completely to move boxes around again. I'll get there. We still have full ongoing Comcast and CableCARD TiVo service for now, so the new system is not as critical as the backup drives or the security camera server. Or the music server, heh.


----------



## ufo4sale

All these options seems very confusing. I guess it's TiVo for me. I surrender my TiVo to ads.


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## Pokemon_Dad

ufo4sale said:


> All these options seems very confusing. I guess it's TiVo for me. I surrender my TiVo to ads.


For most people, all you need to replace TiVo is something like YouTube TV or Hulu + Live TV, with broadband internet and a basic streaming platform like Apple TV, Roku, or Fire TV. Most of what's on this page of the thread is for those of us who like to tinker. I have a similarly elaborate music setup here, but for normal sane people Apple Music is all you need.


----------



## mdavej

wmcbrine said:


> Most of the streaming services also work to authorize TV Everywhere. (The selection of channels is less extensive, to be sure.) Here's a comparison chart.


Nice. But the head scratcher for me is why bother with Channels (and the extra expense) at all since most of those services already have a DVR included? I also question the need to record TVE at all. I never understood people who want to record Netflix or HBO. I just watch it directly from each app and mute on commercials. No extra expense or complicated server architecture required, which is precisely why I dumped WMC in favor of Tivo many years ago. Channels is awesome, but seems like a step backwards to me in terms of simplicity.

Also, that list doesn't match my ATTVN grandfathered package which gets TVE with every channel except the Turner networks.

FWIW, I'm a very satisfied cord cutter who is getting 95% of what I had on cable at half the cost. I reckon in the 3 years since I cut the cord I've saved $7,000 due to the fact my personal bill dropped in half and my mother's bill dropped to zero since we can now share a single service even though she is hundreds of miles away from me. When I sell my old Tivo stuff, that should bring another $1,000 at least.

Another advantage of Recast is I don't have to set up and maintain servers or NAS's in each household and have no subscription fees. Just plug in one box and one Fire stick per TV. Since all the TVs in my house are Fire TV edition TVs, they don't require a stick at all.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> Nice. But the head scratcher for me is why bother with Channels (and the extra expense) at all since most of those services already have a DVR included? I also question the need to record TVE at all. I never understood people who want to record Netflix or HBO. I just watch it directly from each app and mute on commercials. No extra expense or complicated server architecture required, which is precisely why I dumped WMC in favor of Tivo many years ago. Channels is awesome, but seems like a step backwards to me in terms of simplicity.
> 
> Also, that list doesn't match my ATTVN grandfathered package which gets TVE with every channel except the Turner networks.
> 
> FWIW, I'm a very satisfied cord cutter who is getting 95% of what I had on cable at half the cost. I reckon in the 3 years since I cut the cord I've saved $7,000 due to the fact my personal bill dropped in half and my mother's bill dropped to zero since we can now share a single service even though she is hundreds of miles away from me. When I sell my old Tivo stuff, that should bring another $1,000 at least.
> 
> Another advantage of Recast is I don't have to set up and maintain servers or NAS's in each household and have no subscription fees. Just plug in one box and one Fire stick per TV. Since all the TVs in my house are Fire TV edition TVs, they don't require a stick at all.


My WAF use case requires a certain cable news show right next to a certain OTA talk show, in the same DVR interface.  Also, the Channels interface is a vast improvement over many others.


----------



## mschnebly

Pokemon_Dad said:


> For most people, all you need to replace TiVo is something like YouTube TV or Hulu + Live TV, with broadband internet and a basic streaming platform like Apple TV, Roku, or Fire TV. Most of what's on this page of the thread is for those of us who like to tinker. I have a similarly elaborate music setup here, but for normal sane people Apple Music is all you need.


Same here. I have an tiny Intel NUC running jriver media server connected via iscsi to my NAS. Got a bunch of concert DVDs on there.


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## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> My WAF use case requires a certain cable news show right next to a certain OTA talk show, in the same DVR interface.  Also, the Channels interface is a vast improvement over many others.


Man, that's a pretty narrow requirement. Doesn't leave a lot of options. Whenever I change up the TV and tell the family how much money we're saving, they miraculously adapt. Funny how that works.

In any case, AT&T TV NOW meets that requirement in most markets.


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## Pokemon_Dad

mschnebly said:


> Same here. I have an tiny Intel NUC running jriver media server connected via iscsi to my NAS. Got a bunch of concert DVDs on there.


Concert DVDs! Neil Young would love that. He has a new book out on this topic, by the way.

The config here is a tiny Atom PC running LMS/Squeezebox Server, with Squeezebox-edo-DAC setups and Squeezelite apps around the house, approximating JRiver/Audirvana/Roon results. CDs ripped with dBpoweramp, downloads from HDtracks, and LMS plug-ins for Qobuz and Tidal.

Left to themselves, the rest of the family uses Spotify and Apple Music...


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## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> Man, that's a pretty narrow requirement. Doesn't leave a lot of options. Whenever I change up the TV and tell the family how much money we're saving, they miraculously adapt. Funny how that works.
> 
> In any case, AT&T TV NOW meets that requirement in most markets.


Just kidding, I'm sure we'll evolve from there. But for starters I've taken on the challenge of replicating the TiVo/Comcast experience as closely as possible.

All three TVs here are now either Insignia Fire TVs or have a Fire TV Stick 4K, and at some point I'm sure everyone will be cool with switching app tiles to go from local DVR to cloud DVR, just like we switch between Netflix and Prime right now. At the moment though the TVs default to their TiVo Mini units, which are invariably the last input selection.

We may not save all that much money if we cut the cord, as our broadband will go up in price after cancelling cable, while we still have to add at least one more streaming service to get that cable news channel. But for me it's the principal of the thing.


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## wmcbrine

mdavej said:


> Nice. But the head scratcher for me is why bother with Channels (and the extra expense) at all since most of those services already have a DVR included?


Well... they have DVRs that you can time-shift with, but not DVRs that you can archive with. That may be a niche interest (even I don't archive most stuff), but I'm in that niche. Also, the DVRs that come with the streaming services tend to have unskippable commercials in some contexts.


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## mdavej

@Pokemon_Dad , Pluto has a lot of cable news channels for free, just not the one that rhymes with box. I'm not a fan, so Pluto is enough for me.

Since streaming prices have risen to almost match cable in many cases, you'd actually be better off keeping what you've got and trying to negotiate a lower rate. You can usually get a discount if you threaten to walk. Just be prepared for them to call your bluff.


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## mdavej

wmcbrine said:


> Well... they have DVRs that you can time-shift with, but not DVRs that you can archive with. That may be a niche interest (even I don't archive most stuff), but I'm in that niche. Also, the DVRs that come with the streaming services tend to have unskippable commercials in some contexts.


Good point. I'm not an archiver. So far, I've been able to skip all the commercials on my ATTVN recordings. Problem is that ATTVN plans and pricing for new subs are really terrible, and there really isn't a better alternative out there. Everybody else has gaping holes in their lineups.


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## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> @Pokemon_Dad , Pluto has a lot of cable news channels for free, just not the one that rhymes with box. I'm not a fan, so Pluto is enough for me.
> 
> Since streaming prices have risen to almost match cable in many cases, you'd actually be better off keeping what you've got and trying to negotiate a lower rate. You can usually get a discount if you threaten to walk. Just be prepared for them to call your bluff.


I've tried to watch something on Pluto, but their ads popped up far too often and far too randomly, chopping up the movie. And yes they don't carry any of the unbalanced news channels so that's a nonstarter here.

And yes I tried bluffing Comcast before I was ready to truly walk. All the retention rep would offer was a move from our Double Play to a Triple Play that I'm sure would cost more eventually, while forcing on us their unreliable VOIP which we'd never use. I told the rep I'd start setting up OTA instead, but she didn't know what I meant and my Tagalog is a little rusty.

I think the best transitional step will be to drop to the basic cable level in a cheaper Double Play as soon as we've picked a streaming service for the news channels.


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## spiderpumpkin

Channels DVR has enabled TV Everywhere NBC, Fox and ABC for users in certain areas. I get NBC and Fox and it works great. 

Channels DVR now supports Locast for certain cities or VPN to set up. Works great so far!!!


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## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Yup. And if/when that long-speculated merger of DirecTV and DISH finally happens, we'll probably see just one type of satellite DVR going forward. I'm thinking it'll be a DirecTV Hopper.


That would be something. It also depends on what satellite(s) they keep using, and how many channels still exist at that point. I'd guess that 61/72.5/95/129 would be abandoned when they run out of fuel, and everything would condense into 99c/101/103c/110/119.


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## tenthplanet

wizwor said:


> The Tablo TV DVR is a solid product and value. Not going anywhere.


If Amazon wants the market they will be.


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## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> That would be something. It also depends on what satellite(s) they keep using, and how many channels still exist at that point. I'd guess that 61/72.5/95/129 would be abandoned when they run out of fuel, and everything would condense into 99c/101/103c/110/119.


I'm not as familiar with the sats as you but, generally speaking, the DTV fleet is very much superior, right? It has more overall capacity and, thanks to the recent launch of T16, will have a longer useable lifespan too. (As the number of channels and subscribers dwindle, it's plausible that the final years of DBS TV in the US could be delivered using a smaller number of surviving sats.) Combine that with the fact that DTV already has about 50% more subscribers than DISH and it's a cinch to think that all new installations going forward would use dishes pointed at the DTV fleet.

As far as receivers/DVRs, well, that could be either. No reason why the existing Hopper line couldn't be tweaked (maybe just new firmware?) to work with otherwise DTV-native CPE. I only suggest that that's the route they'd go given that the Hopper is much more advanced at this point than the aging Genie. Hopper has more tuners, has the AutoHop feature, and has built-in apps for Netflix and YouTube. At this point, I don't really see AT&T interested enough in DTV to invest in new CPE for it. There's still a chance, though, that they'll upgrade the firmware on the HS17 (or roll out an updated HS27) to allow it to work with the same C71 Android TV box that they're deploying for AT&T TV. But I just question whether, at this point, they want to reserve that box as a special feature of AT&T TV. Remember, if you have home broadband, they want you on AT&T TV, not DTV. And what use are all those Android TV apps and Google Assistant on the C71 if you don't have broadband?


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## wizwor

tenthplanet said:


> If Amazon wants the market they will be.


Define 'The Market'. Amazon has imposed restrictions on Recast owners which are uncommon. The quality of the stream is not as good as alternatives. I'm not sure what Amazon is planning, but they have not won me over. I say that as a Recast owner with a half dozen 4k FTV sticks and seven Echo Shows.


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## tenthplanet

wizwor said:


> Define 'The Market'. Amazon has imposed restrictions on Recast owners which are uncommon. The quality of the stream is not as good as alternatives. I'm not sure what Amazon is planning, but they have not won me over. I say that as a Recast owner with a half dozen 4k FTV sticks and seven Echo Shows.


The market is fast, cheap, turnkey any of the alternatives that don't realize this will be gone within 5 years. Most people don't want TV as a hobby, they just want to watch it.


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## wizwor

tenthplanet said:


> The market is fast, cheap, turnkey any of the alternatives that don't realize this will be gone within 5 years. Most people don't want TV as a hobby, they just want to watch it.


I'm already there. Right now, that market is TiVo. I have not yet sampled an OTT solution that provided satisfactory local channels. Nothing but a premium provider (cable, satellite, FiOS) will satisfy the sports enthusiast. You are going to have to be a hobbyist to support OTT infrastructure. Just as I said ATSC 3.0 would not obsolete TiVo in five years three years ago, I am assuring you that Amazon will not vanquish TiVo in five years and that Roku will never vanquish anyone.

Go ahead and experiment, but it's too early to put your TiVos in ebay.


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## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> I've tried to watch something on Pluto, but their ads popped up far too often and far too randomly, chopping up the movie. And yes they don't carry any of the unbalanced news channels so that's a nonstarter here.


Newsmax isn't "unbalanced" (right-wing) enough for you?


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## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> Newsmax isn't "unbalanced" (right-wing) enough for you?


 Never heard of it. Seriously.


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## Pokemon_Dad

I was in a Best Buy today for other reasons, but had some fun inquiring about OTA stuff. They had a Recast and a Tablo on the shelf, and empty spots for at least one HD HomeRun model. The saleskid thought they were satellite boxes. When I explained what they were he didn't seem to understand, but volunteered that they required a similar subscription. I explained the differences there too, and also educated him a bit on outdoor antennas and amplifiers.

This is not unusual of course, no matter what product, no matter which big box retail chain, anywhere in the world. You have to do your own research before you go. I sometimes get better information from a few of the staff inside the high-end Magnolia AV shops within Best Buy. But certainly not all of the staff in there either. One of the Magnolia shops here recently had a handwritten sign up advertising a sale for "Audiofiles".


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## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Never heard of it. Seriously.


Not sure how you missed if you tried Pluto already. I counted over a dozen news channels from both ends of the spectrum. Extremely unbalanced. You'll want to join the skinheads after 5 minutes of Newsmax.


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## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> Not sure how you missed if you tried Pluto already. I counted over a dozen news channels from both ends of the spectrum. Extremely unbalanced. You'll want to join the skinheads after 5 minutes of Newsmax.


I found the Pluto interface visually noisy and distracting, and that was even before the commercials hit. I tried to watch one free movie but did not finish watching it due to all the interruptions. I remember seeing CNN in the list, but no other news or opinion channels I recognized, not that I remember much at all really. Just that it was not for me.


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## wizwor

mdavej said:


> @Pokemon_Dad , Pluto has a lot of cable news channels for free, just not the one that rhymes with box.


Pluto News is definitely Left Leaning, but that is probably because those networks will take any eyes they can get...

*Pluto TV channels list: News*

Today's Top Story (105)
News 24/7 (108)
CBSN (109)
NBC News (110)
CNN (111)
Cheddar News (112)
The Young Turks (TYT) Network (116)
*NewsmaxTV* (121)
Top Stories by Newsy (127)
RT America (132)
Sky News (135)
Bloomberg TV (143)
Weather Nation (150)
Newsmax is not really a news channel. They air a lot of nationally syndicated radio shows as well as movies and documentaries.

If you simply want news reporting minus opinion and commentary, One America News Network has apps for Fire TV and Roku streamers. As does the network that rhymes with box ;-)


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## Pokemon_Dad

wizwor said:


> Pluto News is definitely Left Leaning, but that is probably because those networks will take any eyes they can get...


Which of those besides the Young Turks is left at all? I'm told here that Newsmax leans way right. I recognize CNN of course but they have long been center-right like most of the USA, plus RT which is the voice of Russia but they're fast becoming fascist, Sky which was founded by Rupert Murdoch in the UK, Bloomberg which covers Wall Street, and NBC which leaves its politics to MSNBC. I've never heard of the rest of them.

Anyway Pluto gives me a headache, and you definitely get what you pay for with these things. I'm more likely to add Hulu, as there's some original content we've been wanting to see there and Live TV is a small incremental upcharge, plus they offer cloud DVR like YouTube TV which also looks like a like a top choice. Both are top-priced too, but still far less than Comcast.

Channels DVR will index commercials and let us skip them, though I haven't yet tested it on any of the above streaming services.


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## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> I found the Pluto interface visually noisy and distracting, and that was even before the commercials hit. I tried to watch one free movie but did not finish watching it due to all the interruptions. I remember seeing CNN in the list, but no other news or opinion channels I recognized, not that I remember much at all really. Just that it was not for me.


Totally understandable. I never use the interface since Pluto channels are integrated into my OTA guide. Just throwing ultra cheap cord cutter options out there.


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## wmcbrine

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Which of those besides the Young Turks is left at all?


wizwor thinks _OAN_ is "news reporting minus opinion and commentary", so I'd say his perspective is more than a little skewed.


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## Pokemon_Dad

wmcbrine said:


> wizwor thinks _OAN_ is "news reporting minus opinion and commentary", so I'd say his perspective is more than a little skewed.


Ah. OK. Never heard of that one either, but a quick search tells me center-right is way left of where OAN has been lately.

Aaaand maybe we should just go back to discussing the technical side of TiVo alternatives.


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## Bigg

Stupid Chrome ate my post, but I'll try to remember the train of thought I was on.



NashGuy said:


> I'm not as familiar with the sats as you but, generally speaking, the DTV fleet is very much superior, right?


Generally speaking, yes, but DISH works a lot better for mobile applications since they use Ku band, which is really hard to do with Ka band.



> As the number of channels and subscribers dwindle, it's plausible that the final years of DBS TV in the US could be delivered using a smaller number of surviving sats.


Yes, there is less bandwidth required for future DBS systems. Not only are there going to be fewer channels, but international programming will be moving entirely to IP, as the target audience for those channels don't live out in the sticks, and DBS will be English/Spanish only. Further, SD will be gone on DirecTV, which will free up a lot of space, and any remaining SD channels that aren't available in HD will be moved to MPEG-4, saving half the bandwidth for them.



> As far as receivers/DVRs, well, that could be either. No reason why the existing Hopper line couldn't be tweaked (maybe just new firmware?) to work with otherwise DTV-native CPE.


WHOA. You just totally skipped over needing DirecTV-compatible tuners for SWiM/DECA. Maybe there is some way to make an external tuner/networking box that works on DirecTV's system to bring existing Hoppers onto it, but at that point, they may as well replace the entire thing. DECA and the MoCA band that DISH uses aren't even the same, DirecTV is 450-650mhz, and DISH is 650mhz to 975mhz. It's possible that they could make a headless DVR gateway that would serve both DirecTV and DISH clients with both MOCA bands (since DECA is just a lower frequency version of MOCA) using DirecTV's satellite system, and it's possible that DirecTV and/or DISH receivers already have the hardware to network on both bands. Either way, it's a messy transition.



> I only suggest that that's the route they'd go given that the Hopper is much more advanced at this point than the aging Genie. Hopper has more tuners, has the AutoHop feature, and has built-in apps for Netflix and YouTube. At this point, I don't really see AT&T interested enough in DTV to invest in new CPE for it.


There would have to be new CPE, as DISH users would be disappointed with the existing Genie, and Hopper is a DISH product, so if they're going to use DirecTV's system, then they'd need to make a Hopper compatible with it. IMO, the HS17 headless server model is kind of stupid for most average Joes who want a box by their TV that they can plug into their TV. They would have to knock it down to 13 tuners, however, since they can't seem to get more than 13 tuners on an RB LNB, even though they have a regular Ku/Ka 21-tuner LNB. They have an external multiswitch that can do 15. Maybe they could figure out how to get 16 for a future SWiM Hopper 4.

Or maybe with the reduction in programming, they could keep DISH on Ku on 110/119/129 and DirecTV on 99c/101/103c/110/119, and somehow either broadcast some content to both on 110/119, or keep them separate, but using the same satellites at 110 and 119. I'm not sure how much bandwidth they could share, or how that would be done, as the DirecTV system has some bandwidth chokepoints on 110 and 119. If they did this, they could migrate some smaller markets to a new combined system somehow to reduce duplication of HD LiLs. No matter what they do, it will be messy.

If they moved the core HD channels onto Ku band from Ka band, that would free up capacity for something else to go on Ka, and that's without even considering RB (assuming they keep it hanging around for the 4k dream that may never happen- the current 4 4k channels are on Ka). They could probably free up all of 110 and 119, turn those over to the DISH system, and get rid of the EA/WA DISH system, keeping DISH hardware running on 110 and 119, and DirecTV on 99c/101/103c, which would eliminate 61.5, 72.7, 95, and 129.

If they took DirecTV's system, and moved as many DISH TPs to DirecTV at 110 and 119 as DirecTV's system can handle, the combined behemouth would have more bandwidth than anyone would know what to do with, short of something totally crazy like ATSC 3.0 HD subchannel LiLs or something that will probably never happen. That system could easily keep international programming, 4k, HD, and a full 210 DMA HD LiL payload.

Bottom line is that there are a lot of ways this could play out, and various advantages and disadvantages to how this could play out. I doubt that we'll have 3 major satellite arcs 10 years down the road, but what goes first, and what it ends up becoming is anyone's guess.



> There's still a chance, though, that they'll upgrade the firmware on the HS17 (or roll out an updated HS27) to allow it to work with the same C71 Android TV box that they're deploying for AT&T TV. But I just question whether, at this point, they want to reserve that box as a special feature of AT&T TV. Remember, if you have home broadband, they want you on AT&T TV, not DTV. And what use are all those Android TV apps and Google Assistant on the C71 if you don't have broadband?


Whatever they do has to work as an islanded device for rural users, RVs, boats, etc. As a business decision, I don't see any reason why they would want it to be exclusive to AT&T TV, and not also be used for satellite, the question is whether technologically it makes any sense to use it on a potentially islanded system.

I would forsee that any DISH customers who need new equipment and live in an area with at least some level of AT&T IPBB (maybe 18mbps or 25mbps) would be pushed onto the AT&T TV system, even if they didn't subscribe to AT&T internet per se. It would be cheaper to install a VDSL or fiber gateway than a whole new satellite system.

EDIT: One other note is that DirecTV is currently missing 14 HD LiL markets. When SD shuts down, this should no longer be a bandwidth issue. New satellites designed for a combined operation with 210 market HD LiLs would also be able to more efficiently utilize TP space, with no SD LiL spotbeams, and spotbeams suitable for all 208 HD LiL markets (minus NYC and LA on CONUS for DNS).


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## snerd

Bigg said:


> Stupid Chrome ate my post,


You named your dog "Chrome"?


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## Mikeguy

snerd said:


> You named your dog "Chrome"?


Google employees are like that.


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## LI-SVT

For those using Channels DVR. Is there a way to add extra time to live sports programs? I typically add an hour and a half, just in case.

Thanks


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## Pokemon_Dad

LI-SVT said:


> For those using Channels DVR. Is there a way to add extra time to live sports programs? I typically add an hour and a half, just in case.
> 
> Thanks


Yes you can add extra time. I haven't tested how much time, but it seemed to work just like TiVo. This article gives a relatively detailed overview of Channels' features: https://www.imore.com/channels-dvr...


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## OrangeCrush

mdavej said:


> Nice. But the head scratcher for me is why bother with Channels (and the extra expense) at all since most of those services already have a DVR included? I also question the need to record TVE at all.


The two biggest benefits for me are:

Automatic commercial skipping. No need to fast forward or weird rules around when you're allowed to or not
Ability to mix & match services into one guide, one DVR, one UI (Antenna and Philo in my case). No need to jump between apps or remember which channel lives under which service.
My "cable bill" with this setup is about $28/mo including the Channels DVR subscription. I used to prefer once-and-done upfront costs for things like DVR software and hated ongoing subscription costs for software. However, my experience with a lifetime TiVo and Plex subscription has taught me they aren't always the best approach. I think it can make companies lazy about keeping their lifetime subscribers happy since they already got our money. All of the attention is on chasing the next dollar.

Compared to Channels DVR, where the developers are very accommodating, responsive and active with the community. They seem very interested in making their customers happy and they have an incentive to keep us happy so they keep getting paid.


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## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> WHOA. You just totally skipped over needing DirecTV-compatible tuners for SWiM/DECA.


Ah. OK, so then in my hypothetical scenario, they'd need to make a new version of the Hopper DVR with somewhat different internal hardware in order to be compatible with DirecTV installations. But there's no reason that isn't do-able. (Or, if you prefer to think of it this way, the box's internal hardware would be a lot like the current Genie but with the Hopper UI/software installed on it.) That would be the DVR given to newly installed customers as well as existing customers with DirecTV installations who need to replace/upgrade their old Genie DVR. Existing customers with DISH installations would continue to use/get the original hardware version Hopper.



Bigg said:


> There would have to be new CPE, as DISH users would be disappointed with the existing Genie, and Hopper is a DISH product, so if they're going to use DirecTV's system, then they'd need to make a Hopper compatible with it.


Yes, as I say above.



Bigg said:


> IMO, the HS17 headless server model is kind of stupid for most average Joes who want a box by their TV that they can plug into their TV. They would have to knock it down to 13 tuners, however, since they can't seem to get more than 13 tuners on an RB LNB, even though they have a regular Ku/Ka 21-tuner LNB. They have an external multiswitch that can do 15. Maybe they could figure out how to get 16 for a future SWiM Hopper 4.


Yeah, I think the biggest potential advantage of the headless server model is to allow easier placement (and movement) of client boxes around the house since they're wireless. As far as worrying about ridiculous numbers of tuners that could be accommodated in future hardware scenarios, I don't think that really matters. Remember, DirecTV is going to shift from being what it was in the 90s -- technologically-advanced premium TV -- to simply being the form of cable TV you get when nothing else is available.



Bigg said:


> Or maybe with the reduction in programming, they could keep DISH on Ku on 110/119/129 and DirecTV on 99c/101/103c/110/119, and somehow either broadcast some content to both on 110/119, or keep them separate, but using the same satellites at 110 and 119. I'm not sure how much bandwidth they could share, or how that would be done, as the DirecTV system has some bandwidth chokepoints on 110 and 119. If they did this, they could migrate some smaller markets to a new combined system somehow to reduce duplication of HD LiLs. No matter what they do, it will be messy.


Assuming I understand what you're conveying, that seems needlessly complicated. I don't see why they wouldn't continue to maintain two completely separate DBS systems and satellite fleets so that all current installations continue to work as expected. The two fleets would carry essentially the same overall group of channels. (Channels that DISH now carries but DTV does not would gradually be dropped from the DISH sats, and from the no-longer-sold grandfathered DISH packages, as the company is contractually able to do so.) At some point in the future, assuming DTV is still in business by then, perhaps the old DISH sat fleet will have dwindled down to a size that can no longer carry the full range of DTV channels that are offered at that point. In that case, customers with old DISH installations dating back before the merger would be forced to have a new rooftop dish and receivers installed (at their expense). But there would be very few such customers by that point.



Bigg said:


> Whatever they do has to work as an islanded device for rural users, RVs, boats, etc. As a business decision, I don't see any reason why they would want it to be exclusive to AT&T TV, and not also be used for satellite, the question is whether technologically it makes any sense to use it on a potentially islanded system.


Oh, there's a very clear business reason why they might want to keep the flashy new C71 exclusive to AT&T TV: because it's part of that new service's branding and user experience and they want to drive customers (including their DTV satellite customers) to AT&T TV. So why extend one of its headline features over to DTV, which they're trying to shepherd folks off of before a full or partial sale or spin-off? Beyond that, if DTV may soon end up merging with DISH, what's the point of deploying and supporting a new model DTV STB? Seems likes a needless complication.



Bigg said:


> I would forsee that any DISH customers who need new equipment and live in an area with at least some level of AT&T IPBB (maybe 18mbps or 25mbps) would be pushed onto the AT&T TV system, even if they didn't subscribe to AT&T internet per se. It would be cheaper to install a VDSL or fiber gateway than a whole new satellite system.


Why wouldn't the merged DBS operator still have DISH-compatible Hoppers, etc. to give as replacement equipment to folks with DISH-style installations? I can't see why those customers would ever need to be switched over to a DTV-style installation unless and until some future point when the DISH fleet of sats is no longer minimally viable.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Ah. OK, so then in my hypothetical scenario, they'd need to make a new version of the Hopper DVR with somewhat different internal hardware in order to be compatible with DirecTV installations. But there's no reason that isn't do-able. (Or, if you prefer to think of it this way, the box's internal hardware would be a lot like the current Genie but with the Hopper UI/software installed on it.) That would be the DVR given to newly installed customers as well as existing customers with DirecTV installations who need to replace/upgrade their old Genie DVR. Existing customers with DISH installations would continue to use/get the original hardware version Hopper.


It's perfectly doable, it's basically new CPE at that point. I'm not sure what the branding would be either. DISH's model of a set-top box makes the most sense to me, and their software is definitely ahead of DirecTV.



> Yeah, I think the biggest potential advantage of the headless server model is to allow easier placement (and movement) of client boxes around the house since they're wireless. As far as worrying about ridiculous numbers of tuners that could be accommodated in future hardware scenarios, I don't think that really matters. Remember, DirecTV is going to shift from being what it was in the 90s -- technologically-advanced premium TV -- to simply being the form of cable TV you get when nothing else is available.


The problem is, the HS17 usually ends up at a TV anyway, so then you just have more boxes and cords. Having a device like a Hopper or an HR54 that's a full blown DVR makes the most sense. DISH has 16 tuners in the Hopper, as they surpassed DirecTV a while back. I don't know exactly how their technology works, but they are able to have more tuners than SWiM could handle. I'd figure a future SWiM-based DVR would have 12 tuners, assuming no bonded tuners for 4k like they currently are doing. I think you're right about where DirecTV is going, but DirecTV is still the gold standard for technology, as they are doing way more 4k than anybody else, and they have better video quality than most other pay TV providers.



> Assuming I understand what you're conveying, that seems needlessly complicated. I don't see why they wouldn't continue to maintain two completely separate DBS systems and satellite fleets so that all current installations continue to work as expected. The two fleets would carry essentially the same overall group of channels. (Channels that DISH now carries but DTV does not would gradually be dropped from the DISH sats, and from the no-longer-sold grandfathered DISH packages, as the company is contractually able to do so.) At some point in the future, assuming DTV is still in business by then, perhaps the old DISH sat fleet will have dwindled down to a size that can no longer carry the full range of DTV channels that are offered at that point. In that case, customers with old DISH installations dating back before the merger would be forced to have a new rooftop dish and receivers installed (at their expense). But there would be very few such customers by that point.


Sure, it's pretty complicated. The question is how long DISH's satellites are going to last, and if a combined company wants to maintain 3 arcs of satellites, and for how long. At some point, a combined company would want to cut down on the number of satellites and locations. Even if the programming were separate, I don't know if DirecTV's and DISH's system could share the same birds at 110 and 119, which is another potential savings. They could also pare back what is available on the DISH side, and convert customers who want all the bells and whistles over to the DirecTV system, allowing DISH receivers to go back to receiving content from 110 and 119 over the entire CONUS.

Eliminating SD on DISH would also be huge, as that is a good chunk of what is on 110 and 119. I'd bet that they likely wouldn't mix the systems, but they could continue operating 2 satellite arcs in the future. It gets more complicated if they go with EA or WA. If they do EA, the western half of the country would have to move to the DirecTV system, while if they do WA, the northeastern 1/3 of the country would have to move to the DirecTV system in most cases. Keeping DISH entirely on 110/119 with no SD and a reduced channel tonnage would allow it to serve most customers in the CONUS, and customers here and there with tree issues in the Northeast would have to move to the DirecTV side.

Technologically, the best arc by far is DirecTV's 99c/101/103c arc, which has the most bandwidth, and reaches the entire CONUS, plus they have the ability to add parts of 110 and 119 in with a single dish/LNB assembly.



> Oh, there's a very clear business reason why they might want to keep the flashy new C71 exclusive to AT&T TV: because it's part of that new service's branding and user experience and they want to drive customers (including their DTV satellite customers) to AT&T TV. So why extend one of its headline features over to DTV, which they're trying to shepherd folks off of before a full or partial sale or spin-off? Beyond that, if DTV may soon end up merging with DISH, what's the point of deploying and supporting a new model DTV STB? Seems likes a needless complication.


I disagree. I don't think it makes a whole lot of technological sense to have a DirecTV and AT&T TV box being the same, but I don't think that there is any brand advantage to keeping it only on AT&T TV. I would assume that both companies would be moving full steam ahead on their own systems until a merger is actually official, just like T-Mobile and Sprint are still building out sites in the same areas.

Ironically, if they did the C71 only on AT&T TV, and put the Hopper system on satellite, the Hopper would likely end up being the better DVR/CPE.



> Why wouldn't the merged DBS operator still have DISH-compatible Hoppers, etc. to give as replacement equipment to folks with DISH-style installations? I can't see why those customers would ever need to be switched over to a DTV-style installation unless and until some future point when the DISH fleet of sats is no longer minimally viable.


So long as they have satellites to support DISH. DISH has two arcs, and neither of them has as much capacity as DirecTV's single arc. If DISH could consolidate on 110 and 119, especially if they took some TPs from DirecTV, and moved that stuff over to Ka or RB on the DirecTV side, then they could service the whole country from one arc, eliminating the EA/WA setup, and only requiring new dishes (actually back to the DISH 500 design really) or repoints for EA instead of requiring entirely new CPE for the whole house for everyone. Of course, then they could just keep WA on DISH, and abandon the Northeast, moving those customers over to DirecTV. The point is, there are a ton of moving pieces here, and a lot of options for what they would do. I can pretty much guarantee that the DirecTV system on 99c/101/103c stays, what they would do with the other DirecTV orbital positions or the DISH arcs is anyone's guess. Some scenarios are close to a wholesale upgrade/re-installation of equipment for the vast majority of customers, with many moving to AT&T TV. If AT&T could get some of the smaller MSOs that don't want to be in the pay TV business to either partner with them, or at least offer waived data caps in exchange for a kickback from AT&T, then they could probably move more folks over in areas like mine that have a lot of DirecTV with Cox for internet.


----------



## Bigg

I googled a few articles and other forum threads, and while it's fun to run out the various scenarios, it seems like it's probably too early in the game to really predict what is going to happen. There are just so many factors at play here, between AT&T and DISH themselves, the Sprint-T-Mobile merger (as you brought up at DBSTalk), the regulatory climate in place at that point in time, the overall pay TV market, as well as smaller factors like sports league contracts, broadband caps, and the like.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

mdavej said:


> Nice. But the head scratcher for me is why bother with Channels (and the extra expense) at all since most of those services already have a DVR included? I also question the need to record TVE at all. I never understood people who want to record Netflix or HBO. I just watch it directly from each app and mute on commercials. No extra expense or complicated server architecture required, which is precisely why I dumped WMC in favor of Tivo many years ago. Channels is awesome, but seems like a step backwards to me in terms of simplicity.
> 
> Also, that list doesn't match my ATTVN grandfathered package which gets TVE with every channel except the Turner networks.
> 
> FWIW, I'm a very satisfied cord cutter who is getting 95% of what I had on cable at half the cost. I reckon in the 3 years since I cut the cord I've saved $7,000 due to the fact my personal bill dropped in half and my mother's bill dropped to zero since we can now share a single service even though she is hundreds of miles away from me. When I sell my old Tivo stuff, that should bring another $1,000 at least.
> 
> Another advantage of Recast is I don't have to set up and maintain servers or NAS's in each household and have no subscription fees. Just plug in one box and one Fire stick per TV. Since all the TVs in my house are Fire TV edition TVs, they don't require a stick at all.


We still have Xfinity gigabit internet and tv service. Our main family dvr is a 3TB Bolt and seems to be always around 75-85% full.

We also have the 4K X1 Xfinity dvr with small 500GB capacity. That is mainly used for On Demand, a few ip channels like Hallmark Drama and for recording most live sports games.

I like having Channels DVR set up now with a 10TB drive for recording even more things that would just fill up the 3TB Tivo. It records a lot of the TV Everywhere Xfinity channels that maybe can't be recorded on Tivo, because the Tivo's 6 tuners and Tivo Mini may be using them.

Channels also records from a 4-tuner HDHR OTA and Locast backs up those local channels if all 4 tuners are in use.

Channels server is set up on an old Mac Mini and runs on our FireTV stick. I really like using Channels auto commercial skipping on everything and with the Fire TV remote.

I like Unlimited Xfinity internet and having tv with it isn't that much more. I don't see myself cutting the cord because there aren't many options besides Xfinity internet here.


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## Bigg

spiderpumpkin said:


> We still have Xfinity gigabit internet and tv service. Our main family dvr is a 3TB Bolt and seems to be always around 75-85% full.


If you're using 2,250GB of storage, that could be over 1,000 hours if it is mostly cable (MPEG-4) content!!! What on earth is all that stuff, and when do you watch it all? I'm overwhelmed by 17% on my Roamio OTA, and that's OTA, so it's all more than double the bitrate of Comcast.


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## spiderpumpkin

Bigg said:


> If you're using 2,250GB of storage, that could be over 1,000 hours if it is mostly cable (MPEG-4) content!!! What on earth is all that stuff, and when do you watch it all? I'm overwhelmed by 17% on my Roamio OTA, and that's OTA, so it's all more than double the bitrate of Comcast.


A lot of it is just 2 years worth of movies and shows that various family members haven't watched or are saving. Every once in a while I have to delete a series I've been saving up to watch a bunch of at once. Those saved series are what I plan to record on my Channels DVR so they don't sit on Tivo.


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## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> I think you're right about where DirecTV is going, but DirecTV is still the gold standard for technology, as they are doing way more 4k than anybody else, and they have better video quality than most other pay TV providers.


Gold standard for technology? Heh. Let me know when their receivers have Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos and offer 4K HDR content from Netflix, Amazon, Apple, Disney, etc. (I get that in _some_ ways they're ahead of other _traditional_ cable TV systems but that's not saying a whole lot.) Heck, they don't even have voice remotes and they're only barely integrated with Amazon Alexa.



Bigg said:


> Sure, it's pretty complicated. The question is how long DISH's satellites are going to last, and if a combined company wants to maintain 3 arcs of satellites, and for how long. At some point, a combined company would want to cut down on the number of satellites and locations.


You've gone into lots of detail of what all they could do but, again, it makes no sense to needlessly sink money into a dying system. All the DISH sats that are currently in operation are a sunk cost, so they'll aim to use them as long as they can. They won't want to spend a dime on installing a different dish, LNB, etc. for an existing customer in order to have that home use a different mix of sats than it already does. At some point in the future, sure, they may be forced to do re-installs for customers still pointed at the old DISH fleet because that fleet might be down to too few sats to carry all the necessary channels. But they'll wait and spend the money on those re-installations only when they have to because they know that the number of customers will naturally dwindle down over the years anyhow. No point in spending money in, say, 2021 to convert lots of DISH homes away from the DISH sat fleet if that fleet will be perfectly useable until, say, 2025. Because a decent percentage of those customers will have left the service anyhow in those intervening 4 years. And unnecessarily making customers schedule a re-installation only increases the potential of running them off to competitors.



Bigg said:


> I disagree. I don't think it makes a whole lot of technological sense to have a DirecTV and AT&T TV box being the same, but I don't think that there is any brand advantage to keeping it only on AT&T TV. I would assume that both companies would be moving full steam ahead on their own systems until a merger is actually official, just like T-Mobile and Sprint are still building out sites in the same areas.


DirecTV hasn't really been "full stream ahead" on much of anything over the last year or two. Well, I think the Genie UI did get a slight facelift. But the service has been pretty stagnant technologically for awhile now.

It's still possible that the C71 gets deployed on both AT&T TV and DTV, as I had predicted a couple years ago. But keep in mind that AT&T chose to ditch the DTV brand for their new streaming TV services. Just as the new AT&T TV has its own brand, I still think it's quite possible that they won't want it to share its tech platform with the old DTV either. And if DTV gets spun-off into a separate company, which is majority-owned, not fully-owned, by AT&T, I wouldn't expect the DTV company/service to use the AT&T logo or unified billing system any more either. I think it would revert to presenting itself as a separate, independent, privately-owned company. (And frankly, given the way that DTV customers have tended to feel about AT&T since their take-over, that would probably be a good thing.)



Bigg said:


> Ironically, if they did the C71 only on AT&T TV, and put the Hopper system on satellite, the Hopper would likely end up being the better DVR/CPE.


Well, I doubt the Hopper ever has an app platform that can compete with the C71's Android TV. (I also wonder if the implementation of Google Assistant is as good on Hopper as on the C71.) And as more and more of the content folks want to watch shifts to streaming services, having a box that can offer it all will be increasingly important. But in terms of being a pure linear channel DVR, yes, the Hopper may prove to be better. We'll have to wait and see how AT&T TV's cloud DVR performs. Looks like both can store 500 hours. AT&T TV offers unlimited tuners but, with 16 tuners, the Hopper 3 is close enough.



Bigg said:


> If AT&T could get some of the smaller MSOs that don't want to be in the pay TV business to either partner with them, or at least offer waived data caps in exchange for a kickback from AT&T, then they could probably move more folks over in areas like mine that have a lot of DirecTV with Cox for internet.


Yeah, it'll be interesting to see which MSOs AT&T TV ends up partnering up with. CenturyLink seems like a given (as they're a telco and already bundle in DTV) but we might see some HFC cable MSOs partner up too.


----------



## Bigg

spiderpumpkin said:


> A lot of it is just 2 years worth of movies and shows that various family members haven't watched or are saving. Every once in a while I have to delete a series I've been saving up to watch a bunch of at once. Those saved series are what I plan to record on my Channels DVR so they don't sit on Tivo.


Yikes! That's a lot of stuff! Speaking of that, I really need to work on my 17% on my Roamio OTA and get it back to being a normal DVR, not a digital junkpile.



NashGuy said:


> Gold standard for technology? Heh. Let me know when their receivers have Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos and offer 4K HDR content from Netflix, Amazon, Apple, Disney, etc. (I get that in _some_ ways they're ahead of other _traditional_ cable TV systems but that's not saying a whole lot.) Heck, they don't even have voice remotes and they're only barely integrated with Amazon Alexa.


Barely anyone else is doing 4k HDR broadcasts, and their VQ is ahead of most other pay TV providers on HD channels. Compare them to Comcast's horrendous MPEG-4 in 720p CBR. Charter and Cox may be marginally better, but don't do 4k. DISH has little 4k, and FiOS has only recently done any 4k. Even if you don't care about 4k, DirecTV's VBR MPEG-4 encoding is far superior to any other mainstream MVPD. They have more bandwidth than anyone else, and they have the best, tightest arc due to how their gamble on Ka paid off. No one else is even close. Most of the stuff you mentioned in ancillary, it has nothing to do with the actual encoding an transmission of the pay TV content. Sure, their boxes are a bit dated, but in this hypothetical merger scenario, they'd do new CPE anyway. Sadly, TiVo is not going to come back, but Hopper would do the trick.



> You've gone into lots of detail of what all they could do but, again, it makes no sense to needlessly sink money into a dying system. All the DISH sats that are currently in operation are a sunk cost, so they'll aim to use them as long as they can. They won't want to spend a dime on installing a different dish, LNB, etc. for an existing customer in order to have that home use a different mix of sats than it already does. At some point in the future, sure, they may be forced to do re-installs for customers still pointed at the old DISH fleet because that fleet might be down to too few sats to carry all the necessary channels. But they'll wait and spend the money on those re-installations only when they have to because they know that the number of customers will naturally dwindle down over the years anyhow. No point in spending money in, say, 2021 to convert lots of DISH homes away from the DISH sat fleet if that fleet will be perfectly useable until, say, 2025. Because a decent percentage of those customers will have left the service anyhow in those intervening 4 years. And unnecessarily making customers schedule a re-installation only increases the potential of running them off to competitors.


I'm looking at what they would do when the existing DISH satellites are no longer viable, as that process will take several years at a minimum to complete.



> DirecTV hasn't really been "full stream ahead" on much of anything over the last year or two. Well, I think the Genie UI did get a slight facelift. But the service has been pretty stagnant technologically for awhile now.


Maybe "business as usual" is a better term.



> It's still possible that the C71 gets deployed on both AT&T TV and DTV, as I had predicted a couple years ago. But keep in mind that AT&T chose to ditch the DTV brand for their new streaming TV services. Just as the new AT&T TV has its own brand, I still think it's quite possible that they won't want it to share its tech platform with the old DTV either. And if DTV gets spun-off into a separate company, which is majority-owned, not fully-owned, by AT&T, I wouldn't expect the DTV company/service to use the AT&T logo or unified billing system any more either. I think it would revert to presenting itself as a separate, independent, privately-owned company. (And frankly, given the way that DTV customers have tended to feel about AT&T since their take-over, that would probably be a good thing.)


The branding is more a reflection of many Americans being morons. Recent polls have shown that a double-digit percentage of Americans think chocolate milk comes from brown cows, and even more people think that Hybrids can run out of electric charge and electric cars need gas. It's just as bad when you start to get into basic civics like how the government works. As a result, many morons out there apparently thought that DirecTV NOW needed a satellite dish to work, so AT&T had to rebrand it. To be fair to the morons of America, AT&T should have seen this one coming in the first place.

However, that is true about DirecTV being spun off.



> Well, I doubt the Hopper ever has an app platform that can compete with the C71's Android TV. (I also wonder if the implementation of Google Assistant is as good on Hopper as on the C71.) And as more and more of the content folks want to watch shifts to streaming services, having a box that can offer it all will be increasingly important. But in terms of being a pure linear channel DVR, yes, the Hopper may prove to be better. We'll have to wait and see how AT&T TV's cloud DVR performs. Looks like both can store 500 hours. AT&T TV offers unlimited tuners but, with 16 tuners, the Hopper 3 is close enough.


They've at least got Netflix and YouTube on the Hopper. It would likely end up being the better pay TV CPE/DVR interface, aside from the ancillary crap like apps and voice control. That might be true for a streaming TV service, but for satellite, it is less so, both due to demographics, and lack of access to decent broadband. That being said, it should still have some app support.

I think all cloud DVRs will become tiered over time, as it's a really easy/cheap upsell that has good margin for the provider. I'd expect to see several upsell tiers.



> Yeah, it'll be interesting to see which MSOs AT&T TV ends up partnering up with. CenturyLink seems like a given (as they're a telco and already bundle in DTV) but we might see some HFC cable MSOs partner up too.


That's going to get really interesting. Also, if Comcast branches out, as we've discussed previously. We'll see if they can get something compelling out the door before pay TV just totally implodes, or all the content is sucked up into the vortices of the major network/content owner streaming bundle apps.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> I'm looking at what they would do when the existing DISH satellites are no longer viable, as that process will take several years at a minimum to complete.


What's you best estimate at how much longer the current DISH sat fleet can remain operationally viable?



Bigg said:


> I think all cloud DVRs will become tiered over time, as it's a really easy/cheap upsell that has good margin for the provider. I'd expect to see several upsell tiers.


Yeah, probably so.



Bigg said:


> That's going to get really interesting. Also, if Comcast branches out, as we've discussed previously. We'll see if they can get something compelling out the door before pay TV just totally implodes, or all the content is sucked up into the vortices of the major network/content owner streaming bundle apps.


Well, in Comcast's case, rolling out a nationwide OTT cable TV service (i.e. vMVPD) would really just be about transitioning as many customers as possible toward their own SVOD Peacock.


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## mdavej

NashGuy said:


> What's you best estimate at how much longer the current DISH sat fleet can remain operationally viable?


Satellites last about 10 years. So it depends on when they were launched. Their first sat was launched in '95. If they've been following the 10 year plan, then they've got about a year left, at least on some of them.
How long does a satellite last? - The Solid Signal Blog

Dish bought a crap load of spectrum in the last auction, so I imagine they're aiming to eventually get out the satellite business too, hence not super interested in buying DirecTV's fleet. If they did buy, it would be for the value of the eyeballs, not the hardware and infrastructure. They already have enough of that, except possibly in Latin America and other markets outside the US.


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## NashGuy

mdavej said:


> Satellites last about 10 years. So it depends on when they were launched. Their first sat was launched in '95. If they've been following the 10 year plan, then they've got about a year left, at least on some of them.
> How long does a satellite last? - The Solid Signal Blog
> 
> Dish bought a crap load of spectrum in the last auction, so I imagine they're aiming to eventually get out the satellite business too, hence not super interested in buying DirecTV's fleet. If they did buy, it would be for the value of the eyeballs, not the hardware and infrastructure. They already have enough of that, except possibly in Latin America and other markets outside the US.


Well, based on what I've gleaned from info on both systems' fleets on their Wikipedia pages, it looks like some sats have operated as little as 10 years while others have lasted around 20. So it varies. Based on what, I don't know. Folks seem to think that DirecTV's fleet would be fine until 2030 if not longer. I would imagine that DISH's fleet might become insufficient to offer a full nationwide service (including all those locals) at some point in the mid-2020s but that's just a SWAG on my part.

I'm not aware of any proposed plan for DISH to buy DirecTV (either their business or their fleet). The proposal that is being pitched right now is for AT&T and DISH to spin off and merge their operations into a jointly owned subsidiary with AT&T retaining major ownership/control (given that DirecTV is larger and more valuable than DISH).


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## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> What's you best estimate at how much longer the current DISH sat fleet can remain operationally viable?


I have no clue, as I'm not into the technical details on each bird and what life it has left, and what orbital positions they'd be willing to run without a backup bird on location.



> Well, in Comcast's case, rolling out a nationwide OTT cable TV service (i.e. vMVPD) would really just be about transitioning as many customers as possible toward their own SVOD Peacock.


To me, that seems like two different services.



NashGuy said:


> Well, based on what I've gleaned from info on both systems' fleets on their Wikipedia pages, it looks like some sats have operated as little as 10 years while others have lasted around 20.


They often go to being backup birds when they are running low on fuel. There also may be other services operating at some orbital positions, but I'm not sure if they share birds, or have separate birds. Newer satellites also have better spot beams that are more efficient, so there really are a lot of pieces to the puzzle. The numbers I have heard put the actual cost of the satellites as being very low, often only a few percent of the cost of programming. Of course that goes up as viewership goes down.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> To me, that seems like two different services.


Well, sort of. But the line blurs. Warner is taking a lot of the content from their linear cable channels (e.g. TBS, TNT, CNN, Cartoon Network, etc.) and cannibalizing it under the HBO Max DTC SVOD (plus giving that service some fresh exclusive stuff too in the form of "Max Originals"). So you won't need a cable bundle to see stuff from TBS, etc. if you have HBO Max.

NBCU will kinda do the same with Peacock. Although, in the first few years of Peacock, it looks like the only way it will contain current stuff from the NBCU linear channels (e.g. NBC, USA, SyFy, etc.) is if you're already paying for them via a channel package (e.g. Xfinity TV) and can authenticate that in the Peacock app. But eventually, I expect that they'll shift all their linear channel stuff into Peacock for standalone subscribers too, just as HBO Max is going to do from the get-go for everything but live sports and news.

Same holds true for Disney with Hulu and Disney+. All three companies are gradually shifting their content and evolving viewers' viewing habits away from their linear channels and over to their DTC services. Just wait until all of ESPN becomes available as a standalone DTC OTT service...



Bigg said:


> They often go to being backup birds when they are running low on fuel. There also may be other services operating at some orbital positions, but I'm not sure if they share birds, or have separate birds. Newer satellites also have better spot beams that are more efficient, so there really are a lot of pieces to the puzzle. The numbers I have heard put the actual cost of the satellites as being very low, often only a few percent of the cost of programming. Of course that goes up as viewership goes down.


Eh, well, most of the cost of those satellites are sunk costs (although I guess there are certain ongoing operational costs in terms of ground uplinks, etc.). And there almost certainly won't be any more DBS satellites launched. DTV has said T16 was their last and I doubt we see any more launched by DISH either.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Well, sort of. But the line blurs. Warner is taking a lot of the content from their linear cable channels (e.g. TBS, TNT, CNN, Cartoon Network, etc.) and cannibalizing it under the HBO Max DTC SVOD (plus giving that service some fresh exclusive stuff too in the form of "Max Originals"). So you won't need a cable bundle to see stuff from TBS, etc. if you have HBO Max.
> 
> NBCU will kinda do the same with Peacock. Although, in the first few years of Peacock, it looks like the only way it will contain current stuff from the NBCU linear channels (e.g. NBC, USA, SyFy, etc.) is if you're already paying for them via a channel package (e.g. Xfinity TV) and can authenticate that in the Peacock app. But eventually, I expect that they'll shift all their linear channel stuff into Peacock for standalone subscribers too, just as HBO Max is going to do from the get-go for everything but live sports and news.
> 
> Same holds true for Disney with Hulu and Disney+. All three companies are gradually shifting their content and evolving viewers' viewing habits away from their linear channels and over to their DTC services. Just wait until all of ESPN becomes available as a standalone DTC OTT service...


I'm seeing the Peacock service being <$15/mo, with NBC content and maybe a few live streams of NBC channels. The vMVPD service is a $50-$60/mo cable replacement package like YouTube TV, PS Vue, etc. Same for ABC/Disney.



> Eh, well, most of the cost of those satellites are sunk costs (although I guess there are certain ongoing operational costs in terms of ground uplinks, etc.). And there almost certainly won't be any more DBS satellites launched. DTV has said T16 was their last and I doubt we see any more launched by DISH either.


Someone is going to have to launch more at some point. They will eventually run out of fuel and need to be replaced. We may be down to a single small arc that roughly approximates DirecTV's current system by then. DISH is down to 9.64M while DirecTV has 17.9M. DISH is spread across two arcs, and DirecTV has a LOT more commercial. I'd guess that no more than 1/3 of DISH subscribers are on EA, so if anything goes, that could be the first to go, merger or not.


----------



## Bigg

It's also possible that AT&T sells their TPs on 110 and 119 off to DISH, and DISH may be able to serve eastern HD LiL markets with just 110/119, with full WA for markets farther west if they get rid of SD MPEG-2 CONUS and LiLs on 110/119 to free up more space. Lots of things could happen.


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## Bigg

Based on DBSTalk, D* has been mirroring everything from 95W on 99cr. WorldDirect may survive longer than I think....

Now is the time to upgrade to the Reverse Band LNB - The Solid Signal Blog

So it sounds like D* will fully consolidate to 99c/99cr/101/103c/103cr in the not too distant future....


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## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> I'm seeing the Peacock service being <$15/mo, with NBC content and maybe a few live streams of NBC channels. The vMVPD service is a $50-$60/mo cable replacement package like YouTube TV, PS Vue, etc. Same for ABC/Disney.


Yes. What's your point? Think of it this way: the DTC services are like getting just the content owned by a single network owner. Want just the stuff from the WarnerMedia channels? Get HBO Max. Want just the stuff from the NBCU channels? Get Peacock. Etc. All those DTC SVODs are going to cannibalize their affiliated linear channels, plus add some exclusive stuff that you can't get on the linear channels, hence the need to subscribe to the DTC. Eventually, everyone will just get the DTC services and not bother with linear channels. But that won't happen until one key type of content gets freed from linear channels, like everything else, and can be viewed inside DTC services: sports.



Bigg said:


> Someone is going to have to launch more at some point.


Um, no. That's not going to happen. No one is going to flush millions of dollars on additional DBS satellite launches.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Yes. What's your point? Think of it this way: the DTC services are like getting just the content owned by a single network owner. Want just the stuff from the WarnerMedia channels? Get HBO Max. Want just the stuff from the NBCU channels? Get Peacock. Etc. All those DTC SVODs are going to cannibalize their affiliated linear channels, plus add some exclusive stuff that you can't get on the linear channels, hence the need to subscribe to the DTC. Eventually, everyone will just get the DTC services and not bother with linear channels. But that won't happen until one key type of content gets freed from linear channels, like everything else, and can be viewed inside DTC services: sports.


My point is the network-based DTC service (mostly OTT SVOD with a bit of linear thrown in) is a totally different animal than the vMVPD service.



> Um, no. That's not going to happen. No one is going to flush millions of dollars on additional DBS satellite launches.


As long as there is linear TV, there has to be a way to distribute it everywhere, and DBS is the only technology that can do that, unless LEO is cost competitive to do some sort of IP multicast, but that's likely beyond at least one more round of DBS birds.


----------



## tluxon

Saturn said:


> ...
> If TiVo is going to start pre-roll ads the whole kit is going on E-bay and I'll need an alternative. 3-4 OTA (ATSC) tuners, 1TB DVR, view-able from an iPad and several Rokus.
> 
> Is HDHomeRun my best bet here? Most of our TV is watched pre-recorded, though I do like to start watching football games halfway in to skip all the commercials and the between-play waiting.
> 
> Auto-skip would be great, but not a deal breaker - a (responsive) 30 second skip, and 7-second back has worked fine for the last 18 years. I don't care about suggestions - just something with a reliable tuner that will record our shows and play them back ad-free.
> 
> Anything else I should consider?


For a more traditional delivery of TV content, nothing compare to TiVo for ease-of-use and versatility (I have maybe 30TB of content I can stream through the TiVos via Streambaby), but I've been using a couple other solutions for several years now to keep up with alternatives.

For a PC-based approach, the pinnacle for me has been Windows Media Center, but the benefit of that has declined significantly since Microsoft was leveraged - I assume - into dropping future support for it. Since I already had the HDHomeRun Prime (CableCARD with 3 tuners) and an HDHomeRun Connect Quatro (OTA with 4 tuners), I'm signed up for the HDHomeRun DVR application, but I've also been using Channels DVR for a year-and-a-half and it is far superior to the Silicon Dust DVR offering.

Primarily for ease-of-deployment for all users of the household, the TiVos are still going strong for my family, but it seems like the sunset for that is approaching as more and more streaming alternatives are embraced.


----------



## mschnebly

tluxon said:


> For a more traditional delivery of TV content, nothing compare to TiVo for ease-of-use and versatility (I have maybe 30TB of content I can stream through the TiVos via Streambaby), but I've been using a couple other solutions for several years now to keep up with alternatives.
> 
> For a PC-based approach, the pinnacle for me has been Windows Media Center, but the benefit of that has declined significantly since Microsoft was leveraged - I assume - into dropping future support for it. Since I already had the HDHomeRun Prime (CableCARD with 3 tuners) and an HDHomeRun Connect Quatro (OTA with 4 tuners), I'm signed up for the HDHomeRun DVR application, but I've also been using Channels DVR for a year-and-a-half and it is far superior to the Silicon Dust DVR offering.
> 
> Primarily for ease-of-deployment for all users of the household, the TiVos are still going strong for my family, but it seems like the sunset for that is approaching as more and more streaming alternatives are embraced.


I guess I just have to disagree. I've used the X1 for an extended time and it's just as easy to use as anything else. If you chose not to use the voice functions then it might be an extra button push here and there. It's just not as pretty looking. YTTV is also just as easy to use as is Channels DVR. Maybe you should say TiVo is easier to use for long time TiVo users who are trained in the way it works and don't like learning something new or different? My 8 year old Grand Daughter (and her 13yo sister) can fly though YTTV guides, recordings and searches like a wizard. They love having their own profile too.


----------



## Bigg

mschnebly said:


> I guess I just have to disagree. I've used the X1 for an extended time and it's just as easy to use as anything else. If you chose not to use the voice functions then it might be an extra button push here and there. It's just not as pretty looking.


X1 is like Nokia... a zillion clicks to do anything. It's not nearly as smooth and fast to use as TiVo.


----------



## mdavej

mschnebly said:


> ...YTTV is also just as easy to use as is Channels DVR. Maybe you should say TiVo is easier to use for long time TiVo users who are trained in the way it works and don't like learning something new or different? My 8 year old Grand Daughter (and her 13yo sister) can fly though YTTV guides, recordings and searches like a wizard. They love having their own profile too.


I just switched from AT&T TV NOW to YTTV after the big price hike was announced. I'm loving YTTV so far. Very easy to use and works so much better than ATTTVN. And since it has unlimited recording space and all my major locals, I hardly ever use my Recast anymore. I love the profiles too. Bonus is PBS is coming to YTTV next month. After that, I can disconnect my Recast entirely.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> I just switched from AT&T TV NOW to YTTV after the big price hike was announced. I'm loving YTTV so far. Very easy to use and works so much better than ATTTVN. And since it has unlimited recording space and all my major locals, I hardly ever use my Recast anymore. I love the profiles too. Bonus is PBS is coming to YTTV next month. After that, I can disconnect my Recast entirely.


How easily are you able to skip commercials with the YTTV cloud DVR?


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> My point is the network-based DTC service (mostly OTT SVOD with a bit of linear thrown in) is a totally different animal than the vMVPD service.


OK, but my point is that they're NOT totally different animals. The DTC services are simply the receptacles into which the big traditional media players are shifting their content. The DTC services will gradually duplicate everything on the linear channels, while also including lots of popular new stuff that isn't aired on their linear counterparts at all.



Bigg said:


> As long as there is linear TV, there has to be a way to distribute it everywhere, and DBS is the only technology that can do that, unless LEO is cost competitive to do some sort of IP multicast, but that's likely beyond at least one more round of DBS birds.


Nah, there's no law that says that all Americans have a right to access cable TV regardless of where they live. DBS operators won't spend the money to reach that dwindling number of rural Americans with their service if there's not enough demand for it to provide a sufficient return on the required investment in new satellites. I'm very doubtful that there will be. The existing DBS sats, between DTV and DISH, should be able to meet the declining demand for satellite TV through the 2020s. Beyond that, there just won't be enough demand for it to justify additional major capital outlays for it. It would be kind of like spending lots of money to build new buggy whip factories after Ford had rolled out the Model T.


----------



## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> How easily are you able to skip commercials with the YTTV cloud DVR?


Depends. If they're skippable, it's easy, and you can see thumbnails as you skip 15 sec at a time. If they're unskippable, it's not so easy. Seems to be totally arbitrary. Some have no ads, others one or two or many. No way to tell until you start watching. If that's a deal breaker, then AT&T would be better. But with them you're limited to 20 hours of DVR. I'm willing to accept the trade off.


----------



## NashGuy

mdavej said:


> I just switched from AT&T TV NOW to YTTV after the big price hike was announced. I'm loving YTTV so far. Very easy to use and works so much better than ATTTVN. And since it has unlimited recording space and all my major locals, I hardly ever use my Recast anymore. I love the profiles too. Bonus is PBS is coming to YTTV next month. After that, I can disconnect my Recast entirely.


Yeah, if you have a vMVPD like YTTV, that offers all your major locals, there's really not a lot of point in bothering with OTA TV. Why switch to a different app/UI for your locals when they're already integrated into the vMVPD's app/UI?

Now, that said, I do think it's pretty cool how Fire TV's native channel guide integrates OTA TV (either from Recast or from the built-in tuner on smart TVs running Fire TV OS) with the streaming cable channels from Philo, a skinny vMVPD that doesn't include any locals.

Looking forward to see if AT&T TV offers anything similar. It would be easy enough for them to sell the AT&T Watch TV package and then integrate OTA locals into the UI of the AT&T TV box and app. They could make it compatible with existing HDHomeRun tuners and/or (more likely) sell their own network tuner like Sling has done with their AirTV. Plug in your own USB hard drive and you've got free OTA DVR service.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> OK, but my point is that they're NOT totally different animals. The DTC services are simply the receptacles into which the big traditional media players are shifting their content. The DTC services will gradually duplicate everything on the linear channels, while also including lots of popular new stuff that aren't aired on their linear counterparts at all.


But they're two totally different ways of offering content, and won't be the same service, or at least not the same tier of a service.



> Nah, there's no law that says that all Americans have a right to access cable TV regardless of where they live. DBS operators won't spend the money to reach that dwindling number of rural Americans with their service if there's not enough demand for it to provide a sufficient return on the required investment in new satellites. I'm very doubtful that there will be. The existing DBS sats, between DTV and DISH, should be able to meet the declining demand for satellite TV through the 2020s. Beyond that, there just won't be enough demand for it to justify additional major capital outlays for it. It would be kind of like spending lots of money to build new buggy whip factories after Ford had rolled out the Model T.


There's a new DBS operator, Orby, that launched a year or two ago, which seems sort of insane given the market. Between mobile, commercial, and rural, there is absolutely a market for DBS, and that's not even counting the folks who have DBS due to ISP caps. If the entire country had fiber with no data caps everywhere, then DBS would be on thin ice, but that's simply not the case. DBS may boil down to a single arc, or even a single satellite at some point as more content becomes VOD, and less is live, but DBS will be around in some form or another as long as there is linear TV, and no other reasonable alternative, i.e. LEO if that pans out. Even just on commercial, there is a market. Every airport, restaurant, etc, isn't going to have cable or fiber put in just to stream TV. Travel around the US a bit and see how many DirecTV dishes there are supplying commercial customers and get back to me on that one.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Looking forward to see if AT&T TV offers anything similar. It would be easy enough for them to sell the AT&T Watch TV package and then integrate OTA locals into the UI of the AT&T TV box and app. They could make it compatible with existing HDHomeRun tuners and/or (more likely) sell their own network tuner like Sling has done with their AirTV. Plug in your own USB hard drive and you've got free OTA DVR service.


They've got a USB stick for OTA on the Genie DVRs to provide locals that aren't available as HD LiLs, or during blackouts. It's a different code base and technology set, but it wouldn't be hard to make similar functionality for streaming offerings as well.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> There's a new DBS operator, Orby, that launched a year or two ago, which seems sort of insane given the market.


Yeah, Orby basically just leases space on the Eutelsat 117 West A bird, which launched in March 2013. Its coverage area includes parts of both North and South America. Will be interesting to see how long Orby can survive. They don't carry any locals, or any of the channels owned by Disney, Comcast, CBS or Fox. So it's a $40 package of channels that looks a lot like the $15 AT&T Watch TV. Their receiver will integrate whatever locals you can pull in from an OTA antenna. Regular receiver costs $100 each, DVR receivers cost $200. It's all prepaid/no credit check, so they're definitely going after folks at the low end of the market who also don't have broadband. All things considered, seems like a fairly niche play.



Bigg said:


> Between mobile, commercial, and rural, there is absolutely a market for DBS, and that's not even counting the folks who have DBS due to ISP caps.


Mobile is a niche inside a niche. Rounding error. Pretty much all those commercial establishments already have broadband service, they're just using DirecTV because of their sports packages, particularly NFLST. When that becomes available via other means (and it will), you're gonna see a lot of them dump the dish. Yes, there will continue to be enough rural demand to keep a single DBS service alive for several more years but that group will steadily dwindle, especially after Starlink comes on line, which should initially happen about a year from now. (Did you see that Elon Musk tweeted via a Starlink connection today?)



Bigg said:


> Travel around the US a bit and see how many DirecTV dishes there are supplying commercial customers and get back to me on that one.


Yes. Was out for lunch with a friend yesterday at a sports bar and they were using DTV on their TVs mounted throughout. The picture went completely out on the TV I was facing for quite awhile. There was a light rain at the time.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, Orby basically just leases space on the Eutelsat 117 West A bird, which launched in March 2013. Its coverage area includes parts of both North and South America. Will be interesting to see how long Orby can survive.


It's a weird and misplaced service to me, but we'll see. I don't know how they compete against a MUCH more fully featured offering from DISH.



> Mobile is a niche inside a niche. Rounding error. Pretty much all those commercial establishments already have broadband service, they're just using DirecTV because of their sports packages, particularly NFLST. When that becomes available via other means (and it will), you're gonna see a lot of them dump the dish. Yes, there will continue to be enough rural demand to keep a single DBS service alive for several more years but that group will steadily dwindle, especially after Starlink comes on line, which should initially happen about a year from now. (Did you see that Elon Musk tweeted via a Starlink connection today?)


Mobile has some high-value customers on boats and RVs, as well as full time RVers, NASCAR, and some other applications. Many commercial establishments don't have broadband, they are using DSL or slower VDSL for POS terminals. A lot of those places are doing 6+ channels at a time, requiring dozens of mbps just for video, often more. Many large casinos, airports, etc, have extensive networks in place, but don't want TV traffic on them, or they are managed by someone different, and DirecTV fills in the need for TV. In many of those applications, no cable is present at all, even though it's available in the surrounding area. Add in rural on top of those two, and you've got a decent customer base for DBS.



> Yes. Was out for lunch with a friend yesterday at a sports bar and they were using DTV on their TVs mounted throughout. The picture went completely out on the TV I was facing for quite awhile. There was a light rain at the time.


They need to get their dish aligned properly. Nonetheless, there are a ton of places like that.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> They need to get their dish aligned properly.


Or just switch to Comcast once it offers access to all the sports programming they need.


----------



## mschnebly

Bigg said:


> X1 is like Nokia... a zillion clicks to do anything. It's not nearly as smooth and fast to use as TiVo.


You forgot to add "If you refuse to use the voice controls."


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Or just switch to Comcast once it offers access to all the sports programming they need.


And get some nice blurry sports channels?



mschnebly said:


> You forgot to add "If you refuse to use the voice controls."


You should not have to rely on voice commands just because the normal UI is poorly designed and overly clicky.


----------



## mschnebly

Bigg said:


> And get some nice blurry sports channels?
> 
> You should not have to rely on voice commands just because the normal UI is poorly designed and overly clicky.


So why is literally every device maker adding voice control to every device under the sun? "Most" people find it very convenient. Clicking through a bunch of menus is the past.


----------



## Bigg

mschnebly said:


> So why is literally every device maker adding voice control to every device under the sun? "Most" people find it very convenient. Clicking through a bunch of menus is the past.


It's a stupid gimmick for stupid people.


----------



## mdavej

Bigg said:


> It's a stupid gimmick for stupid people.


I agree that for simple commands voice is slow, inaccurate and gimmicky, i.e., "Alexa, turn the volume to forty percent". That takes about a second using the volume button, but 5 seconds if you speak it. But voice saves a ton of time when doing searches and complex navigation. Some things that would take me literally minutes to type on an onscreen keyboard only take seconds to say. As for saving navigation button presses, I love being able to say, "record the Simpsons" instead of searching or browsing to the next showing in the guide and clicking record.

So I use voice mostly as a qwerty keyboard replacement, not a remote replacement. A necessary evil on remotes with hardly any buttons.


----------



## shwru980r

mschnebly said:


> So why is literally every device maker adding voice control to every device under the sun? "Most" people find it very convenient. Clicking through a bunch of menus is the past.


They are recording everything you say so they can target you with ads for things they know you are more likely to purchase. There is no mute button for the microphone.


----------



## mdavej

shwru980r said:


> They are recording everything you say so they can target you with ads for things they know you are more likely to purchase. There is no mute button for the microphone.


My Fire stick remote only listens when you press the button. I'd never use one of those boxes that's always listening. Huge invasion of privacy.


----------



## ncted

Bigg said:


> It's a stupid gimmick for stupid people.


Agree it is stupid, but not sure about the people using it. Voice commands should be for situations where your hands are unavailable, like driving. Also, calling is easier and more efficient than texting in most cases, but most people I know don't make phone calls unless they have to. A one minute conversation via phone could take an hour over SMS. What is weird is people are increasingly willing to talk to their devices and less willing to talk to each other.


----------



## mschnebly

Bigg said:


> It's a stupid gimmick for stupid people.


Or maybe those people who are stuck in the past are the stupid people. Seems stupid to click through a series of screens instead of just saying it. Speaking is as natural as it can be.


----------



## mschnebly

mdavej said:


> My Fire stick remote only listens when you press the button. I'd never use one of those boxes that's always listening. Huge invasion of privacy.


It's the same way with the X1. Those saying that they are being listened to are confusing remote controls with those personal assistants. When some refuse to use a popular tech it's usually because they don't understand it. "Not gonna use those new phones with buttons. The beeping causes cancer. I'm sticking with the rotary dial!!"


----------



## ncted

mschnebly said:


> Or maybe those people who are stuck in the past are the stupid people. Seems stupid to click through a series of screens instead of just saying it. Speaking is as natural as it can be.


If and when voice command works, it might be great, but knowing something will work exactly right on the first try with a few presses of buttons might be preferable to people who already have to fight with constantly changing, often non-intuitive technology all day long. I use Siri while driving for navigation and messaging and occasionally while dictating a text while walking, and those seem to work fairly reliably. I've tried Alexa and Google Assistant on my Fire and Dish devices with much less success. I can't even get Alexa to open the live channel guide reliably on my Firesticks -- something I'd consider a simple task.

IMHO, voice commands have become an excuse for those responsible for UI design to be lazy. Not necessarily the designers themselves, who are probably overworked and understaffed, but the product managers, etc. Why make something intuitive and efficient when we can just add a voice command for it?


----------



## mschnebly

ncted said:


> If and when voice command works, it might be great, but knowing something will work exactly right on the first try with a few presses of buttons might be preferable to people who already have to fight with constantly changing, often non-intuitive technology all day long. I use Siri while driving for navigation and messaging and occasionally while dictating a text while walking, and those seem to work fairly reliably. I've tried Alexa and Google Assistant on my Fire and Dish devices with much less success. I can't even get Alexa to open the live channel guide reliably on my Firesticks -- something I'd consider a simple task.
> 
> IMHO, voice commands have become an excuse for those responsible for UI design to be lazy. Not necessarily the designers themselves, who are probably overworked and understaffed, but the product managers, etc. Why make something intuitive and efficient when we can just add a voice command for it?


True, the assistants are far less accurate. The X1 remote is one of the most accurate voice controls I've ever seen. When I was using it, it was dead on every time. The X1 UI is not real pretty but the voice part is very well done. They cant really be compared assistants except that you speak to both.
At some point there really wont be a need for a polished UI. As the younger folks grow up the UI will be a last resort and voice will be really good and all that's needed.


----------



## ncted

mschnebly said:


> True, the assistants are far less accurate. The X1 remote is one of the most accurate voice controls I've ever seen. When I was using it, it was dead on every time. The X1 UI is not real pretty but the voice part is very well done. They cant really be compared assistants except that you speak to both.
> At some point there really wont be a need for a polished UI. As the younger folks grow up the UI will be a last resort and voice will be really good and all that's needed.


Well, that is what Star Trek said would happen, so it probably will. I expect they will get a lot better with time.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> And get some nice blurry sports channels?


Most people wouldn't notice the difference in HD PQ between DTV and Comcast (especially when seated at a typical sports bar viewing distance). But everyone notices when the picture completely goes out due to rain fade right in the middle of a key moment in the game.


----------



## bobfrank

mdavej said:


> My Fire stick remote only listens when you press the button. I'd never use one of those boxes that's always listening. Huge invasion of privacy.


Are you sure it only listens when you press the button? Maybe it listens all the time, but only responds when you press the button.


----------



## greer1999

Trying out Channels DVR with OTA and TVEverywhere. Gotta say - pretty impressive so far!

I figured the response would be pretty bad considering it is all over the network etc but using my Fire TV and the Channels app it much more responsive than my Tivos ever have been.

May just be a keeper!


----------



## mdavej

bobfrank said:


> Are you sure it only listens when you press the button? Maybe it listens all the time, but only responds when you press the button.


Highly unlikely. If it is, it's the most energy efficient device ever made. For 2 AAA batteries to run the mic 24x7 for 12 months at a time while constantly transmitting the audio stream to my Fire TV for analysis (which is off most of the time) would be quite a feat.

The only numbers I could find indicate that that the most efficient RF transmitter in a consumer remote is about 5mA, and a really efficient condenser mic maybe 1mA, not to mention the A/D processing going on. We've got 2000 mAh in a set of AAA's. So a remote that's active 24x7 would kill the batteries in about 2 weeks rather than the 52 weeks I typically get.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

bobfrank said:


> Are you sure it only listens when you press the button? Maybe it listens all the time, but only responds when you press the button.


There is an option to allow Alexa to listen for the command "turn on TV", but that's a different Alexa device listening all the time, not the remote. The remote does not receive audio unless you press the microphone button while the remote is connected to a Fire TV device. And as @mdavej notes, there's no way the batteries in that little device would last so long if it was constantly transmitting audio.


----------



## shwru980r

mdavej said:


> My Fire stick remote only listens when you press the button. I'd never use one of those boxes that's always listening. Huge invasion of privacy.


It only controls the Fire TV when you press the button.


----------



## mschnebly

bobfrank said:


> Are you sure it only listens when you press the button? Maybe it listens all the time, but only responds when you press the button.


Maybe there is an FBI van outside too but I really don't think so.


----------



## trip1eX

i used the x1 last weekend when out of town and kid used voice to find shows and worked great. And we used voice to skip forward 3 minutes all the time to skip most of the commercials.


----------



## bobfrank

mdavej said:


> Highly unlikely. If it is, it's the most energy efficient device ever made. For 2 AAA batteries to run the mic 24x7 for 12 months at a time while constantly transmitting the audio stream to my Fire TV for analysis (which is off most of the time) would be quite a feat.
> 
> The only numbers I could find indicate that that the most efficient RF transmitter in a consumer remote is about 5mA, and a really efficient condenser mic maybe 1mA, not to mention the A/D processing going on. We've got 2000 mAh in a set of AAA's. So a remote that's active 24x7 would kill the batteries in about 2 weeks rather than the 52 weeks I typically get.


My comment was partly tongue-in-cheek, and partly not. I'm not familiar with the device and didn't know about the battery situation


----------



## Bigg

ncted said:


> Agree it is stupid, but not sure about the people using it. Voice commands should be for situations where your hands are unavailable, like driving. Also, calling is easier and more efficient than texting in most cases, but most people I know don't make phone calls unless they have to. A one minute conversation via phone could take an hour over SMS. What is weird is people are increasingly willing to talk to their devices and less willing to talk to each other.


Interesting point about people talking to things but not people. I think some of it has to do with not wanting to interrupt people.



mschnebly said:


> Or maybe those people who are stuck in the past are the stupid people. Seems stupid to click through a series of screens instead of just saying it. Speaking is as natural as it can be.


There is no need for a voice command when a few key presses can do it far more efficiently- if the UI is actually good. Pure keyboard control is the ultimate in high-speed, high-efficiency computer control.



ncted said:


> IMHO, voice commands have become an excuse for those responsible for UI design to be lazy. Not necessarily the designers themselves, who are probably overworked and understaffed, but the product managers, etc. Why make something intuitive and efficient when we can just add a voice command for it?


Exactly. It would be one thing to add voice control to a product with a great UI, but it's no excuse for a poor one.



NashGuy said:


> Most people wouldn't notice the difference in HD PQ between DTV and Comcast (especially when seated at a typical sports bar viewing distance). But everyone notices when the picture completely goes out due to rain fade right in the middle of a key moment in the game.


True. Most people are oblivious to VQ. That venue should get it's dish properly aligned. While DirecTV with a properly aligned dish will go out for a couple of minutes during a specific set of severe weather conditions, cable goes out less frequently but for hours or days at a time when the physical infrastructure is damaged.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> That venue should get it's dish properly aligned. While DirecTV with a properly aligned dish will go out for a couple of minutes during a specific set of severe weather conditions, cable goes out less frequently but for hours or days at a time when the physical infrastructure is damaged.


Sorry, I just think you don't know what you're talking about with regard to "proper alignment". I saw DTV go out on at least some channels *every* time it rained at my house, despite two different techs affirming my dish was perfectly aligned. And I see DTV go out in too many public establishments around town when it rains (and not necessarily a severe storm) to think that they're all just victims of clueless installers. DBS has certain technical advantages over traditional cable but it has weaknesses too and rain fade is the biggest. It's just weird the degree of denial that exists among DBS apologists like you about the issue.


----------



## WVZR1

NashGuy said:


> Sorry, I just think you don't know what you're talking about with regard to "proper alignment". I saw DTV go out on at least some channels *every* time it rained at my house, despite two different techs affirming my dish was perfectly aligned. And I see DTV go out in too many public establishments around town when it rains (and not necessarily a severe storm) to think that they're all just victims of clueless installers. DBS has certain technical advantages over traditional cable but it has weaknesses too and rain fade is the biggest. It's just weird the degree of denial that exists among DBS apologists like you about the issue.


Your experience with 'weather' and DBS/DTV is from when? I had BellExpressvu here in the 'Southern Province' of West Virginia with 'few issues' with both their early *birds and their later configuration. Early configuration I used only 1 dish, their later refined and much more restrictive footprint did require I used 2 dishes. Weather was seldom an issue! VERY SELDOM!!!!!


----------



## NashGuy

WVZR1 said:


> Your experience with 'weather' and DBS/DTV is from when? I had BellExpressvu here in the 'Southern Province' of West Virginia with 'few issues' with both their early *birds and their later configuration. Early configuration I used only 1 dish, their later refined and much more restrictive footprint did require I used 2 dishes. Weather was seldom an issue! VERY SELDOM!!!!!


Over multiple years with both DTV and DISH. Probably in the 2010-2016 range. My parents, who've had DISH for years, also experience rain fade a fair amount, although maybe not as much as I did. And as I've said, I've happened to notice rain fade instances on DTV at least twice in the past few months when I've been sitting in a local restaurant/bar.

BUT I'M GLAD IT WAS VERY SELDOM AN ISSUE FOR YOU!!!!!


----------



## Charles R

WVZR1 said:


> Weather was seldom an issue! VERY SELDOM!!!!!


I had DirecTV and Dish TV for over a decade and I'd guess my weather related offline time was well less than 10 minutes a year. One or two (extreme) rain storms and typically the signal would go out just prior to the "storm"... and resume within a couple of minutes. Now I believe where you are located relative to the satellite (native signal strength) does comes into play.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Got Channels DVR set up with the HD HomeRun Quatro again, and as you can see below also added TV Everywhere access using our login for the Xfinity account we're thinking of cancelling.

For those wondering what the TVE beta includes at this time, here are a couple screen shots of the top of the combo box. It continues with a very very long list of cable companies.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

For those wondering whether some channels get blacked out in TV Everywhere, this is how some of our Xfinity lineup looks in the Channels TVE list. All the channels I'm about to mention work fine via the Xfinity Stream website and apps.

Each geographic area is probably a little different, but this is what I see. CNN and CNNI work. MSNBC works, but not Comedy Central. Fox and Outdoor are missing, but CNBC, Newsmax, and Cheddar are there. AMC but no TMC. A&E is among the missing. And so on.

Most likely we would replace Xfinity with Hulu Live TV if we cut the cord, as we've been tempted many times to add Hulu anyway and it's a small incremental upgrade. As with YouTube TV, that would replace the major cable channels we are likely to miss after leaving Xfinity. That's assuming Channels can access all channels via those services. Anyone care to comment on that?


----------



## wmcbrine

Pokemon_Dad said:


> That's assuming Channels can access all channels via those services. Anyone care to comment on that?


#273 (see the comparison chart)


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Sorry, I just think you don't know what you're talking about with regard to "proper alignment". I saw DTV go out on at least some channels *every* time it rained at my house, despite two different techs affirming my dish was perfectly aligned. And I see DTV go out in too many public establishments around town when it rains (and not necessarily a severe storm) to think that they're all just victims of clueless installers. DBS has certain technical advantages over traditional cable but it has weaknesses too and rain fade is the biggest. It's just weird the degree of denial that exists among DBS apologists like you about the issue.


People with properly aligned dishes rarely have outages, and the few that do happen are summer afternoons for a few minutes when thunder cells pass south/southwest of them. Ka is extremely finicky, and a lot of dishes aren't aligned properly. The Ka peak is extremely sharp and narrow, so if you're even a tiny bit off the peak, you will have rain fade. They also have to be mounted with the main pole and two stabilizer bars all mounted to a solid structure. I'm not a DBS apologist, I'm just stating the reality.



NashGuy said:


> Over multiple years with both DTV and DISH. Probably in the 2010-2016 range. My parents, who've had DISH for years, also experience rain fade a fair amount, although maybe not as much as I did. And as I've said, I've happened to notice rain fade instances on DTV at least twice in the past few months when I've been sitting in a local restaurant/bar.


DISH is a lot weaker, and has more rain fade issues, although I'm not sure how the two arcs compare. DirecTV is far more reliable, and with a properly peaked/dithered Ka dish, rain fade WILL be rare.



Charles R said:


> I had DirecTV and Dish TV for over a decade and I'd guess my weather related offline time was well less than 10 minutes a year. One or two (extreme) rain storms and typically the signal would go out just prior to the "storm"... and resume within a couple of minutes. Now I believe where you are located relative to the satellite (native signal strength) does comes into play.


That sounds about right for DirecTV.


----------



## Rey

My experience with rain fade was similar in all the years I was with dish and directv. Both dishes were properly aligned with very strong signals coming in. Living in south Florida you get thunderstorms a lot and I experienced rain fade too often for my liking. My old man had the same issues with both providers too. He left to cable as well. 

If not for rain fade and the bs channel disputes dish has often I'd run back to them. I liked directv but loved dish network.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

wmcbrine said:


> #273 (see the comparison chart)


Thanks but what I'm asking now is if all the channels listed there will work with Channels. In other words, I can access all Xfinity channels via the Xfinity app, but not all of them via Channels. Would it also be the case that channels I can access via the YouTube TV or Hulu Live TV apps would not all work with Channels? Hopefully someone who uses one of those with Channels can give us a report.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Thanks but what I'm asking now is if all the channels listed there will work with Channels. In other words, I can access all Xfinity channels via the Xfinity app, but not all of them via Channels. Would it also be the case that channels I can access via the YouTube TV or Hulu Live TV apps would not all work with Channels? Hopefully someone who uses one of those with Channels can give us a report.


I tried channels out and didn't go through them all to see what or wasn't missing because as soon as I saw it doesn't work with premium channels, that was enough for me.


----------



## swyman18

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Thanks but what I'm asking now is if all the channels listed there will work with Channels. In other words, I can access all Xfinity channels via the Xfinity app, but not all of them via Channels. Would it also be the case that channels I can access via the YouTube TV or Hulu Live TV apps would not all work with Channels? Hopefully someone who uses one of those with Channels can give us a report.


The chart referenced should help you figure out what networks support TVE for each provider (Hulu TV, PS Vue, etc. ).

Basically, if the provider supports TVE for that network, then it should work with Channels DVR. Some networks like A&E and History do not have a TVE live stream, so you won't see those on the list at all. In those cases, it doesn't matter what provider you have. No TVE live stream = No Channels DVR support.

The Channels community forum has some good info on which provider has the best source of TVE support.


----------



## mschnebly

NashGuy said:


> Sorry, I just think you don't know what you're talking about with regard to "proper alignment". I saw DTV go out on at least some channels *every* time it rained at my house, despite two different techs affirming my dish was perfectly aligned. And I see DTV go out in too many public establishments around town when it rains (and not necessarily a severe storm) to think that they're all just victims of clueless installers. DBS has certain technical advantages over traditional cable but it has weaknesses too and rain fade is the biggest. It's just weird the degree of denial that exists among DBS apologists like you about the issue.


Same thing here when I was in WI. Every storm was an outage even after several teams came out to re-align. I couldn't take it.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Would it also be the case that channels I can access via the YouTube TV or Hulu Live TV apps would not all work with Channels? Hopefully someone who uses one of those with Channels can give us a report.


Here's what Channels can pick up from YouTube TV via TVE:

(P) = Pacific
MSNBC, CNBC, USA, SYFY, E, Bravo, Oxygen, Sprout, National Geographic, NatGeo(P), NatGeo Wild, Fox News, Fox Business, FX, FX(P), FXX, FXX(P), FX Movies, Sundance, AMC, BBCA, IFC, WE TV, Animal Planet, HGTV, TLC, Travel, Investigation Discovery, Motortrend, Disney, Disney(P), Disney Junior, Disney Junior (P), Disney XD, Disney XD(P), Freeform, Freeform(P), ESPN1, ESPN2, ESPNU, ESPN News, SEC, ACC, Golf, Olympics, NBC Sports News, MLB TV, NBA TV, CBS Sports, Fox Sports 1, Fox Sports RSNs (varies on market)

I omitted the free extras Channels tacks on regardless of subscription. I haven't done a thorough comparison, but some missing channels I noticed by eyeballing the YouTube guide:

TBS, TNT, Universal HD, Cartoon Network, TCM, Smithsonian, Tastemade, BBC World News, CNBC World, CNN, Headline News

(Edit: fixed Disney Jr)


----------



## ncted

Bigg said:


> DISH is a lot weaker, and has more rain fade issues, although I'm not sure how the two arcs compare. DirecTV is far more reliable, and with a properly peaked/dithered Ka dish, rain fade WILL be rare.


I think the reality is YMMV. I've had both DBS services on and off since 2004. At my location, I found Dish's Ku signal to be less impacted by the weather than DirecTV, especially once I moved to the Dish Eastern Arc. The majority of our weather comes in from the southwest, so that favors Dish, as does their use of Ku bands. That said, at lot of people in Florida complain that the EA is worse for rain fade, probably due to their specific circumstances. Either way, the downtime I've experienced with both services has been much less than 3d 15h 39m 29.5s per year that their marketed 99% availability would indicate.


----------



## Bigg

ncted said:


> I think the reality is YMMV. I've had both DBS services on and off since 2004. At my location, I found Dish's Ku signal to be less impacted by the weather than DirecTV, especially once I moved to the Dish Eastern Arc. The majority of our weather comes in from the southwest, so that favors Dish, as does their use of Ku bands. That said, at lot of people in Florida complain that the EA is worse for rain fade, probably due to their specific circumstances. Either way, the downtime I've experienced with both services has been much less than 3d 15h 39m 29.5s per year that their marketed 99% availability would indicate.


DirecTV is much more picky on dish alignment than DISH, since it's Ka vs. Ku. Eastern Arc is higher in the sky on the east coast, so in theory it has to cut through less of the atmosphere, but that doesn't seem to overcome the technical superiority of DirecTV's Ka system. A well aligned DirecTV dish will never be out for more than a few minutes, and that won't happen very often. DirecTV's 99% claim is very conservative, in reality, they are pushing 9's. Probably not to datacenter/internet level reliability where at 99.9999% you get a few minutes per year of downtime, but certainly 99.9% or 99.99%.


----------



## ncted

Bigg said:


> DirecTV is much more picky on dish alignment than DISH, since it's Ka vs. Ku. Eastern Arc is higher in the sky on the east coast, so in theory it has to cut through less of the atmosphere, but that doesn't seem to overcome the technical superiority of DirecTV's Ka system. A well aligned DirecTV dish will never be out for more than a few minutes, and that won't happen very often. DirecTV's 99% claim is very conservative, in reality, they are pushing 9's. Probably not to datacenter/internet level reliability where at 99.9999% you get a few minutes per year of downtime, but certainly 99.9% or 99.99%.


While Ka can certainly transmit more data than Ku, I am not sure how Ka can better for resisting rain fade. Ka's wavelengths are nearly half that of Ku. Is it because the dish's are the roughly the same size?


----------



## NashGuy

ncted said:


> Either way, the downtime I've experienced with both services has been much less than 3d 15h 39m 29.5s per year that their marketed 99% availability would indicate.


Yeah, I can definitely believe that 99% claim. Even with all the rain fade I experienced, I'm sure it didn't add up to anywhere near that amount (over 87 hours) per year. The problem is that the outages are sprinkled throughout your viewing, a couple minutes here, 9 minutes there, 23 minutes there, etc. It's just really annoying. I'd rather just have my TV go out completely for one day a year (which, frankly, I'm not sure I ever experienced with either Comcast or AT&T Uverse TV) rather than have little outages messing with my viewing multiple times throughout the year. Nothing like sitting down to watch something on your DVR and then it pixelates and stops playing. "Oh, must've been rain fade. Great."


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

swyman18 said:


> The chart referenced should help you figure out what networks support TVE for each provider (Hulu TV, PS Vue, etc. ).
> 
> Basically, if the provider supports TVE for that network, then it should work with Channels DVR. Some networks like A&E and History do not have a TVE live stream, so you won't see those on the list at all. In those cases, it doesn't matter what provider you have. No TVE live stream = No Channels DVR support.
> 
> The Channels community forum has some good info on which provider has the best source of TVE support.


Thanks. That explains why A&E and History are not there, but not the others that are available via TVE yet not in Channels. Many providers that do license through TVE to a particular provider apparently do not allow it to be shared beyond that provider's own app. For examples, see my report on Xfinity and @OrangeCrush's report on YTTV.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

I really don't see what discussion of satellite reception has to do with the topic of this thread. It is interesting to me though, because I'm a telecom geek.


----------



## Bigg

ncted said:


> While Ka can certainly transmit more data than Ku, I am not sure how Ka can better for resisting rain fade. Ka's wavelengths are nearly half that of Ku. Is it because the dish's are the roughly the same size?


I believe technically Ka is actually more susceptible to rain fade, DirecTV has just implemented their system in a better way than DISH. Ka has way more bandwidth in a much narrower arc than Ku.



NashGuy said:


> Yeah, I can definitely believe that 99% claim. Even with all the rain fade I experienced, I'm sure it didn't add up to anywhere near that amount (over 87 hours) per year. The problem is that the outages are sprinkled throughout your viewing, a couple minutes here, 9 minutes there, 23 minutes there, etc. It's just really annoying. I'd rather just have my TV go out completely for one day a year (which, frankly, I'm not sure I ever experienced with either Comcast or AT&T Uverse TV) rather than have little outages messing with my viewing multiple times throughout the year. Nothing like sitting down to watch something on your DVR and then it pixelates and stops playing. "Oh, must've been rain fade. Great."


I've had various cable companies go out for hours or days at a time. Whether a few minutes here and there is more annoying than a longer total outage in one big chunk is a matter of preference I guess, that isn't reflected in satellite's numerically superior reliability.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Pokemon_Dad said:


> That explains why A&E and History are not there, but not the others that are available via TVE yet not in Channels.


Channels DVR uses a virtual Chrome tab to pick up the TVE streams so they have to be accessible via a web browser to work. Some networks only support mobile apps which aren't supported. That said, the developers are *very* engaged with the community and if there happens to be a channel they don't pick up that actually does work in a web browser, they'll add it if they can. Often quickly.


----------



## swyman18

OrangeCrush said:


> Channels DVR uses a virtual Chrome tab to pick up the TVE streams so they have to be accessible via a web browser to work. Some networks only support mobile apps which aren't supported. That said, the developers are *very* engaged with the community and if there happens to be a channel they don't pick up that actually does work in a web browser, they'll add it if they can. Often quickly.


Yeah, I figured it was something like that which initially was kind of a turn-off because I didn't think the picture quality would be that great on a "large" screen considering the whole web/chrome thing. But I am pleasantly surprised at the quality of most of the channels.


----------



## DigitalDawn

For those of you with "money is no object" budgets, Modulus is a great TiVo alternative.

$5000 will get you a fantastic AV + photos server, up to 20 TBs of storage, a DVR with auto commercial skip, mini clients (extra charge), streaming services and the ability to actually record streaming programming.

The New Home Media Experience

I'm thinking if picking up this line for my more wealthy clients.


----------



## ncted

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, I can definitely believe that 99% claim. Even with all the rain fade I experienced, I'm sure it didn't add up to anywhere near that amount (over 87 hours) per year. The problem is that the outages are sprinkled throughout your viewing, a couple minutes here, 9 minutes there, 23 minutes there, etc. It's just really annoying. I'd rather just have my TV go out completely for one day a year (which, frankly, I'm not sure I ever experienced with either Comcast or AT&T Uverse TV) rather than have little outages messing with my viewing multiple times throughout the year. Nothing like sitting down to watch something on your DVR and then it pixelates and stops playing. "Oh, must've been rain fade. Great."


My experience with TimeWarnerCable is it was out more than Dish or DirecTV ever was. I've never had Uverse, but I have had AT&T Fiber for a couple of years now, and each winter we've had a multi-day outage due to ice storms. Other than OTA, Satellite has been the most reliable TV service I've ever had. YMMV obviously.


----------



## ncted

Bigg said:


> I believe technically Ka is actually more susceptible to rain fade, DirecTV has just implemented their system in a better way than DISH. Ka has way more bandwidth in a much narrower arc than Ku.


Technically, it should be almost twice as susceptible. I am curious to know what DirecTV does to overcome that. Can you point me to some more info?


----------



## Bigg

DigitalDawn said:


> For those of you with "money is no object" budgets, Modulus is a great TiVo alternative.
> 
> $5000 will get you a fantastic AV + photos server, up to 20 TBs of storage, a DVR with auto commercial skip, mini clients (extra charge), streaming services and the ability to actually record streaming programming.
> 
> The New Home Media Experience
> 
> I'm thinking if picking up this line for my more wealthy clients.


CableCard anything is a terrible idea at this point given the situation with QAM. That being said, can that thing handle copy flagged content? What is it based on? I've never even heard of it before.

It seems weird to try to put everyone on one box when high end AV systems like Crestron and Control4 can combine all sorts of different sources, and can be more easily upgraded over time.



ncted said:


> Technically, it should be almost twice as susceptible. I am curious to know what DirecTV does to overcome that. Can you point me to some more info?


I don't know, other than the size, shape, and stabilization of the dish, and DISH's relatively weak Ku-band satellites, at least on EA.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

DigitalDawn said:


> For those of you with "money is no object" budgets, Modulus is a great TiVo alternative.
> 
> $5000 will get you a fantastic AV + photos server, up to 20 TBs of storage, a DVR with auto commercial skip, mini clients (extra charge), streaming services and the ability to actually record streaming programming.
> 
> The New Home Media Experience
> 
> I'm thinking if picking up this line for my more wealthy clients.


Cool. Thanks for sharing. I recall Magnolia trying to sell me something like that almost ten years ago. That was before they got bought by Best Buy, and slowly lost all their brainpower. I wasn't going to bite anyway though, because like many in this region I made my money in part by understanding how to assemble tech solutions myself, which I get a kick out of doing, so was sort of insulted by the idea. But we're all nerds 'n geeks around here.

At this point they should probably modify the statement that "Modulus is the ONLY technology that allows you to record all your streaming content". Or is Modulus able to capture more than the Channels DVR solution we've discussed in previous posts here?


----------



## swyman18

In reading through their site, it looks like it does quite a bit more than Channels DVR. A true hardware DVR with built in BD player, along with the capability to record on-demand content like Netflix. For $5K, it better do it all flawlessly. Including being able to record the on-demand content in original video/audio format. Not just 720p max / 2.0 stereo like PlayOn.TV does.


----------



## DigitalDawn

I should get one in here to test.


----------



## ncted

Bigg said:


> I don't know, other than the size, shape, and stabilization of the dish, and DISH's relatively weak Ku-band satellites, at least on EA.


So, sounds like DirecTV just uses higher-powered (i.e. more expensive) satellites to accomplish the same thing (or better) that Dish does with lower-powered birds. The result is the DirecTV dishes are harder to peak perfectly, so many DirecTV customers are probably experiencing worse rain fade than they should be. Also, they could be dialing up the error correction and bandwidth, and we know DirecTV uses more bandwidth per channel than Dish, so that also seems likely. The downside is channels changes would take longer on similar hardware, and we know that is true as well. Going from an HR54 to a Hopper3 was like hitting the "ludicrous speed" button for me when changing channels. My Fire Recast doesn't have nearly that speed, and I miss it, but I am not willing to pay what traditional cable/satellite charge for service any more. We just don't watch enough of it. We're down to 7 shows per week *when they are new anyway*, and all of them are available on streaming services with no commercials the next day.


----------



## Bigg

ncted said:


> So, sounds like DirecTV just uses higher-powered (i.e. more expensive) satellites to accomplish the same thing (or better) that Dish does with lower-powered birds. The result is the DirecTV dishes are harder to peak perfectly, so many DirecTV customers are probably experiencing worse rain fade than they should be. Also, they could be dialing up the error correction and bandwidth, and we know DirecTV uses more bandwidth per channel than Dish, so that also seems likely. The downside is channels changes would take longer on similar hardware, and we know that is true as well. Going from an HR54 to a Hopper3 was like hitting the "ludicrous speed" button for me when changing channels. My Fire Recast doesn't have nearly that speed, and I miss it, but I am not willing to pay what traditional cable/satellite charge for service any more. We just don't watch enough of it. We're down to 7 shows per week *when they are new anyway*, and all of them are available on streaming services with no commercials the next day.


Ka is harder to peak than Ku, it's fundamental to the difference in bands. They could be using more error correction, since they have a lot more bandwidth to work with in the first place. Yeah, I have so much stuff to watch on streaming that I would find it really hard to justify even YouTube TV at this point. Maybe next year when UConn goes into the new Big East, and the election/Olympics supercycle happens.


----------



## trip1eX

If OTT cable services were a Tivo alternative, then one fewer will be on the market starting in January 2020. Sony stated today that PS Vue is shutting down.


----------



## manhole

OrangeCrush said:


> I omitted the free extras Channels tacks on regardless of subscription. I haven't done a thorough comparison, but some missing channels I noticed by eyeballing the YouTube guide:
> 
> TBS, TNT, Disney Junior, Universal HD, Cartoon Network, TCM, Smithsonian, Tastemade, BBC World News, CNBC World, CNN, Headline News


I get Disney Junior via TV Everywhere (YouTube TV) on Channels.


----------



## Bigg

trip1eX said:


> If OTT cable services were a Tivo alternative, then one fewer will be on the market starting in January 2020. Sony stated today that PS Vue is shutting down.


I'm not surprised, but it's too bad. I hope YouTube TV and others pick up the QuadView feature.


----------



## OrangeCrush

manhole said:


> I get Disney Junior via TV Everywhere (YouTube TV) on Channels.


On second glance, so do I. Probably just overlooked it when I was making my list . . .


----------



## dave13077

I have switched over to Hulu with Live TV. I am a Tivo user of over 10 years but the constant Spectrum price increases have forced me to look elsewhere. Hulu has the selection of channels we want but their DVR is a mess. Very hard to navigate and use. We're still trying it out but not sure if we (WAF) will stay. I would go over to Youtube TV but we will lose some channels we want. Guess time will tell.


----------



## tapokata

My frustration with the Hulu Live DVR is that it kicks in automatically when trying to watch a currently live program, such as a sporting event. You can’t jump to live action without having to be forced through myriad commercial breaks.

Unrelated, but with PSVue shutting down, here’s hoping Amazon partners up with another OTT provider for FireTV guide integration.


----------



## NashGuy

tapokata said:


> My frustration with the Hulu Live DVR is that it kicks in automatically when trying to watch a currently live program, such as a sporting event. You can't jump to live action without having to be forced through myriad commercial breaks.


Yeah, Hulu's basic cloud DVR doesn't let you FF/skip through ads in recordings. So that's why it makes you watch all those commercial breaks when you try to jump up to live action inside a recording that's still in progress. Maybe that wouldn't happen if you upgraded to the enhanced cloud DVR, though, which does allow you to FF through ads. It also expands your storage from 50 to 200 hours. But it costs an extra $10/mo.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

NashGuy said:


> There's just not going to be a big enough retail market to matter much when it comes to local DVR solutions for cable TV. I'm not saying the PRIME 6 won't ever get released but I just can't see it ever making much money for Silicon Dust and it sure wouldn't be worth the potential legal liabilities you're referencing. So if it does see the light of day, I really doubt that it'll allow the recording of copy-protected cable channels.





Bigg said:


> ^^^This. SiliconDust has some products aimed at hotels and broadcasters who need to ingest a bunch of digital cable channels, but I don't think the PRIME 6 fits into any of those use cases. Moving forward, the only retail DVRs will be OTA. The last bastion of local DVRs will be satellite, but in that case the satellite provider controls the hardware and software.





mdavej said:


> Prime 6 is a unicorn. Doesn't exist and never will. Even if it did, without DRM, what's the point?


OK, you all get to say ya told me so. For now at least: No HDHomeRun Prime 6 This Year

At this point my test alternative system is doing so well with OTA and TVE, I'm not sure I'd ever need a Prime anyway, and I'm tempted to try a fully cut cord solution next instead.

Still, a Prime 6 sure could be part of a good TiVo alternative to have available ...if it could allow unrestricted recording.


----------



## ncted

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, Hulu's basic cloud DVR doesn't let you FF/skip through ads in recordings. So that's why it makes you watch all those commercial breaks when you try to jump up to live action inside a recording that's still in progress. Maybe that wouldn't happen if you upgraded to the enhanced cloud DVR, though, which does allow you to FF through ads. It also expands your storage from 50 to 200 hours. But it costs an extra $10/mo.


I tried out their Enhanced DVR, and it does allow FF in recordings. I am using YTTV right now and finding I like its DVR better, although both suffer from VOD replacement on many shows. Sling does not, but there are a number of channels you cannot record at all, like ESPN. None of these is a perfect replacement for a Tivo or Hopper TBH.


----------



## dave13077

ncted said:


> I tried out their Enhanced DVR, and it does allow FF in recordings. I am using YTTV right now and finding I like its DVR better, although both suffer from VOD replacement on many shows. Sling does not, but there are a number of channels you cannot record at all, like ESPN. None of these is a perfect replacement for a Tivo or Hopper TBH.


My experience with Hulu and the Enhanced DVR is mixed. It is very hard to tell what has recorded and when it will record a upcoming show again. Also if you try and record from the guide it will only record that one episode. If you want the whole series you have to search it in "my stuff" and save it there. Also I still have not found a way for it to automatically record upcoming NFL games. All you can do is do it manually every week. Was looking to maybe switch to You Tube TV but will lose some channels we watch.


----------



## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> OK, you all get to say ya told me so. For now at least: No HDHomeRun Prime 6 This Year
> 
> At this point my test alternative system is doing so well with OTA and TVE, I'm not sure I'd ever need a Prime anyway, and I'm tempted to try a fully cut cord solution next instead.
> 
> Still, a Prime 6 sure could be part of a good TiVo alternative to have available ...if it could allow unrestricted recording.


My Ceton ETH6 and Windows Media Center still works fine for unrestricted recording.

I still don't understand how two 3-tuner Primes aren't equivalent to one 6.

Incidentally, I'm loving Youtube TV.


----------



## NashGuy

ncted said:


> I tried out their Enhanced DVR, and it does allow FF in recordings. I am using YTTV right now and finding I like its DVR better, although both suffer from VOD replacement on many shows. Sling does not, but there are a number of channels you cannot record at all, like ESPN. None of these is a perfect replacement for a Tivo or Hopper TBH.


The growing consensus on the interwebs seems to be that YouTube TV is just the best overall streaming cable TV service and a lot of that has to do with its strong cloud DVR. But other than shows from CBS, as well as The CW and Pop (both of which are owned or partially owned by CBS), are you seeing any other recordings that get replaced with VOD versions? I thought it was just down to those few channels (and even then, only on some series and only the following day when the VOD version becomes available).



dave13077 said:


> My experience with Hulu and the Enhanced DVR is mixed. It is very hard to tell what has recorded and when it will record a upcoming show again. Also if you try and record from the guide it will only record that one episode. If you want the whole series you have to search it in "my stuff" and save it there. Also I still have not found a way for it to automatically record upcoming NFL games. All you can do is do it manually every week. Was looking to maybe switch to You Tube TV but will lose some channels we watch.


Yikes. That Hulu DVR sounds pretty bad. More than anyone else, Hulu has seemed intent on using their UI to blur the lines between live linear, on-demand, and cloud DVR. And while I think that Hulu does, in a lot of ways, represent where TV is heading, I can also see how it would be frustrating for folks who come from a traditional cable DVR system and want to more or less replicate those habits on Hulu. I would *never* recommend Hulu with Live TV, for instance, to my parents. Just too much of a paradigm shift. And from your description of their recording controls, it sounds like Hulu needs to rethink a few things.

YouTube TV has, from what I gather, a much simpler, easier-to-understand UI and I think that's a big part of their success. Just "add" a series and all its episodes get recorded and added to your library. (No need to worry about storage since its unlimited.) Just "add" a sports team and all their available games get recorded.


----------



## mdavej

I have lots of CBS recordings on YTTV, not on demand versions.


----------



## Adam C.

dave13077 said:


> My experience with Hulu and the Enhanced DVR is mixed. It is very hard to tell what has recorded and when it will record a upcoming show again.


I had this same problem with Philo TV, and it's one of the main reasons I cancelled. With their DVR you "save" shows you want to watch and it records them whenever they air. The problem is when you go to watch, it mixes your recordings in with the VOD content for that show. So it is very difficult to navigate to the newest recording or even tell if there was a new recording to begin with. Plus it doesn't let you delete individual episodes after you watch them, so it just makes it that much harder to determine what is new and what is not.


----------



## dave13077

Adam C. said:


> I had this same problem with Philo TV, and it's one of the main reasons I cancelled. With their DVR you "save" shows you want to watch and it records them whenever they air. The problem is when you go to watch, it mixes your recordings in with the VOD content for that show. So it is very difficult to navigate to the newest recording or even tell if there was a new recording to begin with. Plus it doesn't let you delete individual episodes after you watch them, so it just makes it that much harder to determine what is new and what is not.


Sounds identical to my experience so far with Hulu. What are you using now?


----------



## ncted

NashGuy said:


> The growing consensus on the interwebs seems to be that YouTube TV is just the best overall streaming cable TV service and a lot of that has to do with its strong cloud DVR. But other than shows from CBS, as well as The CW and Pop (both of which are owned or partially owned by CBS), are you seeing any other recordings that get replaced with VOD versions? I thought it was just down to those few channels (and even then, only on some series and only the following day when the VOD version becomes available).


TBH, I just have YTTV right now because my CBS station still isn't back to full power after the repack, so I am not really watching much other than that on it. I did watch the F1 race last weekend on my local ABC station as an in-progress recording just to get a better feel, and it was a bit confusing at first since I couldn't tell whether it would resume playback correctly, but I eventually became more comfortable with it.


----------



## NashGuy

mdavej said:


> I have lots of CBS recordings on YTTV, not on demand versions.


Can you always FF through the ads in those CBS recordings on YTTV?


----------



## Aaron Malloy

It seems that no matter what other options are out there, they are all a compromise to what Tivo offers. The monthly fee is the biggest gripe I have. I'll peruse eBay now and then to find a used unit with lifetime (at a good price), but they are few and far between.


----------



## mdavej

NashGuy said:


> Can you always FF through the ads in those CBS recordings on YTTV?


Yes so far. I don't think "always" applies to YTTV. Seems to be related to how old the recordings are in some cases.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Aaron Malloy said:


> It seems that no matter what other options are out there, they are all a compromise to what Tivo offers.


Only for cable, but only because there *aren't* many other options. Even then, a TiVo can't access most cable operators' on-demand libraries which is a pretty significant compromise.

TiVo has no relevance at all vs. linear streaming services and there are compelling alternatives in the OTA space. More compelling, imo.


----------



## OrangeCrush

mdavej said:


> Yes so far. I don't think "always" applies to YTTV. Seems to be related to how old the recordings are in some cases.


Are any younger than 90 days that don't let you FF? Philo does something a little like that--30 days in their case--and once the recording ages out, it goes back to being VOD as long as the network has it.


----------



## Adam C.

Aaron Malloy said:


> It seems that no matter what other options are out there, they are all a compromise to what Tivo offers. The monthly fee is the biggest gripe I have. I'll peruse eBay now and then to find a used unit with lifetime (at a good price), but they are few and far between.


The streaming services are meant to be an alternative to cable, not a substitute for cable. They offer fewer channels and just basic DVR functionality in order to cut costs so that people have a cheaper option than cable. If you need a DVR with a large amount of storage, no expiration dates, and other features, that's why cable companies charge $20/month for the equipment.


----------



## NashGuy

Adam C. said:


> The streaming services are meant to be an alternative to cable, not a substitute for cable. They offer fewer channels and just basic DVR functionality in order to cut costs so that people have a cheaper option than cable. If you need a DVR with a large amount of storage, no expiration dates, and other features, that's why cable companies charge $20/month for the equipment.


Yes, that's generally been the case, although I do think that AT&T TV -- when it finally rolls out nationwide in its finalized form (now pushed back to early 2020, it seems) -- will be a full-fledged substitute for traditional cable TV. Although it streams OTT, it will be the service that AT&T uses to immediately replace their aging Uverse TV product and it will also be what they push rather than DirecTV, which will mainly shift to being their solution for rural dwellers without home broadband.


----------



## mdavej

OrangeCrush said:


> Are any younger than 90 days that don't let you FF? Philo does something a little like that--30 days in their case--and once the recording ages out, it goes back to being VOD as long as the network has it.


Yes, plenty. But there is no pattern.


----------



## dadrepus

mdavej said:


> I still don't understand how two 3-tuner Primes aren't equivalent to one 6.


Maybe people don't want to rent 2 cards from Comcast or Verizon or others. For me it was an additional $12/month.


----------



## DBV1

I am trying the Channels App/DVR with ATV (non 4k) and the commercial skipping is great. The only issue I have is the quality is not that great. Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong, as it sounds like most people think the quality is usually really good. I am using it along with my AT&T Now "Go Big" credentials. Thanks!


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

DBV1 said:


> I am trying the Channels App/DVR with ATV (non 4k) and the commercial skipping is great. The only issue I have is the quality is not that great. Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong, as it sounds like most people think the quality is usually really good. I am using it along with my AT&T Now "Go Big" credentials. Thanks!


What specifically about the quality? Overall I am pleased with Channels. But I find the colors somewhat over saturated, and can find no way to adjust that. (My wife doesn't notice that at all.) Also as far as I know Live TV via streaming will include only stereo sound, not 5.1 surround. That's certainly the case here, where I get surround sound on any OTA channels that include it, but only stereo sound on the one Xfinity TVE channel we've been recording.


----------



## DBV1

Pokemon_Dad said:


> What specifically about the quality? Overall I am pleased with Channels. But I find the colors somewhat over saturated, and can find no way to adjust that. (My wife doesn't notice that at all.) Also as far as I know Live TV via streaming will include only stereo sound, not 5.1 surround. That's certainly the case here, where I get surround sound on any OTA channels that include it, but only stereo sound on the one Xfinity TVE channel we've been recording.


It seems like I am watching SD instead of HD. Sometimes it seems as if frames go slower to compared to watching on AT&TN on my ATV. Can't figure it out, as I have heard the quality should be really good. Do you think yours is as good or to your Tivo?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

DBV1 said:


> It seems like I am watching SD instead of HD. Sometimes it seems as if frames go slower to compared to watching on AT&TN on my ATV. Can't figure it out, as I have heard the quality should be really good. Do you think yours is as good or to your Tivo?


I'm getting HD here and it looks good to us. But I'm not on AT&T, and my clients are Fire TV and web, so we're not exactly comparing apples to Apple, so-to-speak. How does it look there via a web browser compared to a direct AT&TN feed in the same browser?

_Edit_: if it looks correct in a web browser, the problem could be frame rate settings in the Channels ATV app. I don't have ATV but there is information on that control somewhere in the Channels Community.


----------



## DBV1

Pokemon_Dad said:


> I'm getting HD here and it looks good to us. But I'm not on AT&T, and my clients are Fire TV and web, so we're not exactly comparing apples to Apple, so-to-speak. How does it look there via a web browser compared to a direct AT&TN feed in the same browser?
> 
> _Edit_: if it looks correct in a web browser, the problem could be frame rate settings in the Channels ATV app. I don't have ATV but there is information on that control somewhere in the Channels Community.


I think it looks ok on the web browser, but then again I am looking at 27 inch screen, but still seems better. I played around with some setting on the client, but nothing seems to work. Channel App has had really good customer service so far, so maybe they will know of something to correct that tomorrow. Hope something works, as really like the interface.

Thanks for the help too!


----------



## NashGuy

FYI, for those interested in an OTA DVR alternative to TiVo:

The Tablo Dual Lite DVR is On Sale For Just $109.99 as An Early Black Friday Sale - Cord Cutters News

(Or instead of a new one on sale for $110, you can get the same product refurbished direct from Tablo for $80.)


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> If the entire country had fiber with no data caps everywhere, then DBS would be on thin ice, but that's simply not the case. DBS may boil down to a single arc, or even a single satellite at some point as more content becomes VOD, and less is live, but DBS will be around in some form or another as long as there is linear TV, and no other reasonable alternative, i.e. LEO if that pans out.


Read today a new blog post about SpaceX's Starlink LEO satellite broadband project and thought you might enjoy it too:
Starlink is a very big deal

Based on what I gather from this detailed article, it appears that the planned constellation will provide sufficient bandwidth to cover all of rural America's needs if everyone were to switch over to it and rely on it to stream all of the TV they watch. The author sees Starlink's core use-case scenario as providing substantial service to significantly more densely populated suburban areas, while also being able to cover a decent chunk of urban internet usage (perhaps as backhaul for cellular network, he says). Remember, the entire constellation will be orbiting the earth -- all of it, from unpopulated oceans to the densest cities. So if the final constellation is dense enough to reasonably serve suburban America, then it should have surplus capacity when flying over far less densely populated areas.


----------



## tenthplanet

NashGuy said:


> Read today a new blog post about SpaceX's Starlink LEO satellite broadband project and thought you might enjoy it too:
> Starlink is a very big deal
> 
> Based on what I gather from this detailed article, it appears that the planned constellation will provide sufficient bandwidth to cover all of rural America's needs if everyone were to switch over to it and rely on it to stream all of the TV they watch. The author sees Starlink's core use-case scenario as providing substantial service to significantly more densely populated suburban areas, while also being able to cover a decent chunk of urban internet usage (perhaps as backhaul for cellular network, he says). Remember, the entire constellation will be orbiting the earth -- all of it, from unpopulated oceans to the densest cities. So if the final constellation is dense enough to reasonably serve suburban America, then it should have surplus capacity when flying over far less densely populated areas.


Astronomers are already dreading this, it's more light pollution in the night sky. I agree.


----------



## mschnebly

DBV1 said:


> It seems like I am watching SD instead of HD. Sometimes it seems as if frames go slower to compared to watching on AT&TN on my ATV. Can't figure it out, as I have heard the quality should be really good. Do you think yours is as good or to your Tivo?


What do you have the Channels settings set for I have mine set for STREAMING QUALITY: Home Streaming is Original and Internet Streaming is 1080p 8Mbps


----------



## DBV1

mschnebly said:


> What do you have the Channels settings set for I have mine set for STREAMING QUALITY: Home Streaming is Original and Internet Streaming is 1080p 8Mbps


I have both set to original and also tried 1080p with no difference. Can't figure out and so far neither can Channels App customer support. Strange as all other streaming services and Plex are great quality. Channels App looks like SD quality or slow framerates....


----------



## NashGuy

tenthplanet said:


> Astronomers are already dreading this, it's more light pollution in the night sky. I agree.


Yeah, that issue is discussed in the article I linked. The author maintains that Starlink will be an issue for astronomers during twilight but not after full nightfall.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

81 responses so far to a survey of streaming Live TV users by Michaela Logan, TiVo Research Architect:https://www.facebook.com/groups/18...


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Pokemon_Dad said:


> 81 responses so far to a survey of streaming Live TV users by Michaela Logan, TiVo Research Architect:https://www.facebook.com/groups/18...


Tivo seems to only use social media to survey users. Too bad they aren't actively helping and answering users.


----------



## Saturn

I pulled the trigger on an HDHomeRun and set it up on my Plex server.

I'm impressed by how easy it was to get working - the HDHomeRun was detected, the guide data mapping worked great... Finding the NFL game I wanted to watch and set it up to record all of them was painless.

Live TV leaves much to be desired. The buffer seems small, it hiccups (pauses) badly for the first 10 seconds to a minute, and it...got very messed up when I was behind live TV and the next show started - it restarted playback from the buffer and then couldn't be skipped forward to live. This was all from a browser, not sure how things will work on a Roku yet.

I forgot how well TiVo "Just Works" in these scenarios. However, Live TV is way down on my list of priorities (#1 being No Ads).


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Saturn said:


> I pulled the trigger on an HDHomeRun and set it up on my Plex server.
> 
> I'm impressed by how easy it was to get working - the HDHomeRun was detected, the guide data mapping worked great... Finding the NFL game I wanted to watch and set it up to record all of them was painless.
> 
> Live TV leaves much to be desired. The buffer seems small, it hiccups (pauses) badly for the first 10 seconds to a minute, and it...got very messed up when I was behind live TV and the next show started - it restarted playback from the buffer and then couldn't be skipped forward to live. This was all from a browser, not sure how things will work on a Roku yet.
> 
> I forgot how well TiVo "Just Works" in these scenarios. However, Live TV is way down on my list of priorities (#1 being No Ads).


I highly recommend using the HDHR with Channels DVR. Channels - Live TV, everywhere


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Saturn said:


> I pulled the trigger on an HDHomeRun and set it up on my Plex server.
> 
> I'm impressed by how easy it was to get working - the HDHomeRun was detected, the guide data mapping worked great... Finding the NFL game I wanted to watch and set it up to record all of them was painless.
> 
> Live TV leaves much to be desired. The buffer seems small, it hiccups (pauses) badly for the first 10 seconds to a minute, and it...got very messed up when I was behind live TV and the next show started - it restarted playback from the buffer and then couldn't be skipped forward to live. This was all from a browser, not sure how things will work on a Roku yet.
> 
> I forgot how well TiVo "Just Works" in these scenarios. However, Live TV is way down on my list of priorities (#1 being No Ads).


Thanks for the report! I second the recommendation of a free one-month trial of Channels. Plex is prettier, but I've never encountered the problems you described with Channels.

When I was playing with Plex as a music and movies server, I often encountered delays due to buffering and transcoding. Plex seemed more sensitive to server speed and client speed than other solutions.

Channels is not a 100% "TiVo experience" either, but it's much much closer, and among other points in its favor it indexes commercials far more consistently than TiVo.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

I still have a Tivo with Comcast, but I'm finding myself recording local OTA channels with my HDHR Quatro/Channels DVR instead. I really like the quality of the OTA video and sound compared to the Comcast feed.

I have an HDHR Prime coming from eBay, bought a brand new one for $150, and I can't wait to use that with the Channels DVR. I like how Channels DVR can utilize multiple HDHRs, TV Everywhere and Locast.

I plan to keep my Tivo Bolt Vox until it stops working or Tivo somehow messes up Encore TE3 or forces me to Hydra. When that day comes I'll be all set with my Channels DVR setup.


----------



## Saturn

spiderpumpkin said:


> I highly recommend using the HDHR with Channels DVR. Channels - Live TV, everywhere


No Roku app (I could get fire sticks I suppose). No lifetime is a bummer and maybe a deal breaker. I may try it just to see how well it works though.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Saturn said:


> No Roku app (I could get fire sticks I suppose). No lifetime is a bummer and maybe a deal breaker. I may try it just to see how well it works though.


I didn't have a Fire Stick right away and just used it on my computer for about a week. You can watch the recordings and live tv in the desktop browser to test things out, etc.

$8 for a lot of functionality. The developers are very helpful in the getchannels forum and always fixing things and using suggestions for new features. I suppose it they increase the price to $12-15 I wouldn't be happy but $8-10 seems ok.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Saturn said:


> No Roku app (I could get fire sticks I suppose). No lifetime is a bummer and maybe a deal breaker. I may try it just to see how well it works though.


A couple years ago the Channels developers produced a Roku app for testing, but withdrew it because the Roku platform does not support MPEG2 natively, forcing the Channels server to do a lot of transcoding on the server. Unlike Plex, they prefer not to put that kind of demand on home networks.

In fact now that I think about it, that transcoding for Roku may be why you're experiencing issues with Plex. Try a Fire TV Stick 4K with Plex and you may be happily surprised, though I still recommend comparing with Channels.


----------



## MassMan

spiderpumpkin said:


> I still have a Tivo with Comcast, but I'm finding myself recording local OTA channels with my HDHR Quatro/Channels DVR instead. I really like the quality of the OTA video and sound compared to the Comcast feed.
> 
> I have an HDHR Prime coming from eBay, bought a brand new one for $150, and I can't wait to use that with the Channels DVR. I like how Channels DVR can utilize multiple HDHRs, TV Everywhere and Locast.
> 
> I plan to keep my Tivo Bolt Vox until it stops working or Tivo somehow messes up Encore TE3 or forces me to Hydra. When that day comes I'll be all set with my Channels DVR setup.


I'm doing the same thing. I have a Tive Premiere with lifetime. The family really likes it. Easy to navigate. I like how the OTA and my cable are integrated.

I got the HDHR Quatro today because of the sale ($99) and just will tinker with it for now. What takes getting used to is while I get channel numbers on the OTA of Channels (using it on my iphone) and HDHR app. I can't enter a number on a remote, and haven't found a way to get to "last channel".

I will build a pc and get a month to month of Channels to see how it goes when recording.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

MassMan said:


> I got the HDHR Quatro today because of the sale ($99)


$99 is a good deal! I paid $150. I hope this doesn't mean BestBuy is dropping the product though. They really don't know how to sell it. Thanks for starting this discussion: https://www.tivocommunity.com/c...


----------



## peakay

OK, so our tivo minis keep locking up, so we are considering bailing on Tivo too. Customers since series 1, sad to leave. I do think they have the best system for app/content aggregation and if the variosu apps worked better and weren't so slow, wed not be looking.

My question... how do people deal with the lack of controlability of rewinding, etc., especially when watching sports? I've dinked around with a roku and what absolutely bugged me is not having fine control over fast forward, slow mo and quick replays. You take thet for granted as a long time tivo user, but streaming does not replicate that experience as far as Ive seen.

Other than that, there's also the issue of local sports being blacked out even when you have a season pass and having to go to a VPN to spoof your location. I guess sports are really wher I have th ebiggest problem.

Thanks.


----------



## WhenenRome

NashGuy said:


> FYI, for those interested in an OTA DVR alternative to TiVo:
> 
> The Tablo Dual Lite DVR is On Sale For Just $109.99 as An Early Black Friday Sale - Cord Cutters News
> 
> (Or instead of a new one on sale for $110, you can get the same product refurbished direct from Tablo for $80.)


Or this "everything-you-need" bundle... 

Tablo DUAL LITE OTA DVR + 1TB Hard Drive & TV antenna included! | eBay


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

peakay said:


> My question... how do people deal with the lack of controlability of rewinding, etc., especially when watching sports?


Not a problem for me watching OTA or a cable TVE stream in Channels Plus. Channels is still not TiVo, but it's close enough, right down to manual or automatic commercial skip, and adjustable FF/Rew skip distance. No Roku app though, just Apple TV, Fire TV, Fire devices, iOS, Android, and desktop web.

I haven't yet tried a virtual provider like YouTube TV via Channels, but it seems to work similarly when Channels can access the same stream. However, there may be others issues with streaming sports. See the reports posted by @inaka today on his cord-cutting thread. Is there really a 30-second delay? Wow.


----------



## Scooter Scott

^^^ What he said. It's not TiVo, but it works well. Even without the DVR server you can still use time shift capabilities with the Channels app.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Saturn said:


> No Roku app (I could get fire sticks I suppose). No lifetime is a bummer and maybe a deal breaker. I may try it just to see how well it works though.


I used to be a much bigger proponent of lifetime options vs neverending subscriptions, but a certain other DVR company has taught me that lifetime subscriptions aren't always the best choice. Once they have all the money they're going to get from you, there's not much incentive to keep you happy and they start pulling stupid crap like inserting ads of their own so they can make another buck off you.

There's some value in a company having to earn my continued business from you, and I think the Channels developers do that in spades. Very responsive, very eager to help and they're always adding new features, (TVE, improving the ad detection system, etc.) I like that I'm supporting a small business as well. I'm happy to support them for as long as they keep actively working to improve the platform.



MassMan said:


> I will build a pc and get a month to month of Channels to see how it goes when recording.


Check eBay. There are lots of off-lease corporate PCs that go for super cheap. A few generations old, but plenty powerful for Channels & a modest Plex server. I got a smaller desktop w/ a quad core i5, 8 gigs ram for $85 and dropped in a 6TB hard drive I had laying around.



peakay said:


> My question... how do people deal with the lack of controlability of rewinding, etc., especially when watching sports? I've dinked around with a roku and what absolutely bugged me is not having fine control over fast forward, slow mo and quick replays. You take thet for granted as a long time tivo user, but streaming does not replicate that experience as far as Ive seen.


Youtube TV & Channels have the best implementation, imo. Rather than trying to do a continuous RW/FW with those little thumbnails--which is impossible for fine control--they jump forward or back a fixed number of seconds with each press of RW / FW. Each tap is forward or back a certain number of seconds. Channels DVR lets you set the number of seconds for forward & back and has separate settings for sports, so you can use a smaller increment if you want. Just no Roku support w/ Channels.


----------



## mschnebly

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Not a problem for me watching OTA or a cable TVE stream in Channels Plus. Channels is still not TiVo, but it's close enough, right down to manual or automatic commercial skip, and adjustable FF/Rew skip distance. No Roku app though, just Apple TV, Fire TV, Fire devices, iOS, Android, and desktop web.
> 
> I haven't yet tried a virtual provider like YouTube TV via Channels, but it seems to work similarly when Channels can access the same stream. However, there may be others issues with streaming sports. See the reports posted by @inaka today on his cord-cutting thread. Is there really a 30-second delay? Wow.


I use it with YTTV and it works very well. I think the thing is becoming more of a "what bothers you the most" or "what can you live with" when thinking about dropping TiVo. These other options might not be as polished as a TiVo but they are quickly changing as more people switch and give them a reason to polish them more. The best thing is try them before you make the decision. Just remember that sometimes it's just what you're used to that make something feel worse. When I first tried YTTV I didn't think I'd like it but after using it for a few weeks and learned how it works I was sold. It's my favorite.


----------



## Bigg

I'm keeping my TiVo for the foreseeable future, as I'm perfectly happy with it, but I'd have to say that there is an appeal to the Channels model of being able to put almost everything on an Android TV box like the Nvidia Shield. That would have everything I need except for Blu-Ray, which I don't use too often, and use for large chunks of time. Not that flipping back and forth between Roku and TiVo is anything but a complete first world problem, but the idea that you could have one Channels DVR and scale out to many TVs in a household with a single box at each one is pretty cool. We're getting ever closer to convergence nirvana.


----------



## trip1eX

mschnebly said:


> I use it with YTTV and it works very well. I think the thing is becoming more of a "what bothers you the most" or "what can you live with" when thinking about dropping TiVo. These other options might not be as polished as a TiVo but they are quickly changing as more people switch and give them a reason to polish them more. The best thing is try them before you make the decision. Just remember that sometimes it's just what you're used to that make something feel worse. When I first tried YTTV I didn't think I'd like it but after using it for a few weeks and learned how it works I was sold. It's my favorite.


Are you using YTTV on an AppleTV?


----------



## Saturn

OrangeCrush said:


> I used to be a much bigger proponent of lifetime options vs neverending subscriptions, but a certain other DVR company has taught me that lifetime subscriptions aren't always the best choice. Once they have all the money they're going to get from you, there's not much incentive to keep you happy and they start pulling stupid crap like inserting ads of their own so they can make another buck off you.


That very same company taught lots of people the opposite message too - just because you're paying a subscription doesn't mean you're going to get new features, especially on your older boxes.

Though that's a bit of an aside - TiVo was a hardware+subscription whereas Channels is pure software subscription.


----------



## Bigg

Saturn said:


> Though that's a bit of an aside - TiVo was a hardware+subscription whereas Channels is pure software subscription.


Sort of since they make the HDHR tuners that go with it.


----------



## Saturn

Bigg said:


> Sort of since they make the HDHR tuners that go with it.


From Channels' own press kit:
"
We're two indie developers who got fed up with slow and awkward set-top-box interfaces and set out to build something better. Channels uses a SiliconDust HDHomeRun network TV tuner to stream live television directly to your streaming device, with no intermediate server required. We've built a simple intuitive TV watching experience that's easy for the whole family. It really lets you live on a single input with your Apple TV.
"
While they use HDHomeRun products, they are not affiliated with Silicondust.


----------



## Bigg

Saturn said:


> From Channels' own press kit:
> "
> We're two indie developers who got fed up with slow and awkward set-top-box interfaces and set out to build something better. Channels uses a SiliconDust HDHomeRun network TV tuner to stream live television directly to your streaming device, with no intermediate server required. We've built a simple intuitive TV watching experience that's easy for the whole family. It really lets you live on a single input with your Apple TV.
> "
> While they use HDHomeRun products, they are not affiliated with Silicondust.


Oh, interesting. They're clearly partnered with SiliconDust somehow, but they may not be profiting off of hardware sales in that case....


----------



## wmcbrine

Bigg said:


> They're clearly partnered with SiliconDust somehow


Eh? Not clear to me.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

I think the ability to use multiple HDHRs just works with how the developers want Channels DVR to work.


----------



## powrcow

mschnebly said:


> I use it with YTTV and it works very well. I think the thing is becoming more of a "what bothers you the most" or "what can you live with" when thinking about dropping TiVo.


Do many of the TVE streams that Channels DVR records have a 30 or 60 fps frame rate?


----------



## MassMan

I finally setup a pc to act as a dvr for channels. I have an HDHR Connect Quatro, and using TV Anywhere to pipe in many of my comcast channels.

It's works very well. The sound doesn't feel as deep as it does through the Tivo. I'm using a 4K Apple TV. Both the Apple TV and the DVR are wired to the same switch. 

Both the Tivo and the Apple TV are connected to the same TV with the same sound output to a soundbar.
Luckily I'm a tinkerer, and while it doesn't seem like it needs a lot, Tivo is just so easy (for both me and the family)

Also I don't see if I can watch a small screen while I use the guide as I can with my Tivo Premiere. Not a huge deal but a very nice to have.


----------



## mdavej

Bigg said:


> Sort of since they make the HDHR tuners that go with it.


I think you're confusing Silicon Dust's HDHR DVR software with Channels. Yes, SD makes HDHR tuners and their own DVR software. But they have nothing to do with Channels other than Channels writing their own software so that it works with SD hardware.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

powrcow said:


> Do many of the TVE streams that Channels DVR records have a 30 or 60 fps frame rate?


30 fps, and Channels DVR records exactly what is being streamed by the TVEverywhere network sites.

Here's NBCSN TVEverywhere hockey on now and Fox Sports basketball on now.
















Here's a Channels DVR recording details of a HDHR Quatro OTA football game from last Saturday.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Saturn said:


> That very same company taught lots of people the opposite message too - just because you're paying a subscription doesn't mean you're going to get new features, especially on your older boxes.


True, but as a recurring subscriber, you can "fire" them for bad behavior. Doesn't mean they'll stop, but you don't have to reward the behavior. A lifetime subscriber's only recourse is eBay.



Bigg said:


> Oh, interesting. They're clearly partnered with SiliconDust somehow, but they may not be profiting off of hardware sales in that case....





wmcbrine said:


> Eh? Not clear to me.


SiliconDust posts very good documentation about how their hardware works. They make it easy for third party developers to take the APIs and run with them, which is what the Channels devs have done. They don't have any special relationships with Silicon Dust beyond maybe a few contacts for technical questions.


----------



## Sparky1234

I've looked at Channels DVR and it seems like scheduling recordings is more challenging then TiVo. Is that the case?


----------



## mdavej

Sparky1234 said:


> I've looked at Channels DVR and it seems like scheduling recordings is more challenging then TiVo. Is that the case?


Are you talking about recording cable/OTA channels or TVE streams? Keep in mind that Tivo can't record TVE streams at all. So any extra complexity there can't be compared to Tivo.


----------



## mschnebly

trip1eX said:


> Are you using YTTV on an AppleTV?


Yes. The ATV4k has almost become my only device for most stuff now.


----------



## mschnebly

Bigg said:


> Oh, interesting. They're clearly partnered with SiliconDust somehow, but they may not be profiting off of hardware sales in that case....


They originally made Channels for the Apple TV I think and then for other devices later.


----------



## trip1eX

mschnebly said:


> Yes. The ATV4k has almost become my only device for most stuff now.


Any tips you've learned? I found the guide scrolling to be really slow ...until I learned you can tap the touchpad up/down to navigate the guide much quicker. Still kind of slow though. Could use a page/down functionality which is present in other apps with the same remote.


----------



## powrcow

spiderpumpkin said:


> 30 fps, and Channels DVR records exactly what is being streamed by the TVEverywhere network sites.


Thanks for the great info! I really like the idea of Channels capturing the TVE stream, but I have a hard time with the 30fps TVE streams for sports. As it stands now, Cox sets the CCI byte on almost all channels so TiVo is still the easiest option for me (for now).


----------



## trip1eX

Anybody check out PlutoTV? I was amazed at how much content it has and how much content I've heard of and that has appeal to me like the 007 channel. 

and it works good. I like the simple no frills design. And commercials aren't terrible. 2 minutes at a time it seems like. It feels like fewer commercials overall than networktv. I could be wrong.

anyway I'm sure I'm behind the times in checking stuff like this out. But ...I was very surprised. There's nothing new on it. But quite a lot of good old movies and shows.

There's hundreds of channels on it and a lot of the content you can watch on demand. OH yeah and it's free in case you're in the dark like I was.


----------



## mdavej

trip1eX said:


> Anybody check out PlutoTV? I was amazed at how much content it has and how much content I've heard of and that has appeal to me like the 007 channel.
> 
> and it works good. I like the simple no frills design. And commercials aren't terrible. 2 minutes at a time it seems like. It feels like fewer commercials overall than networktv. I could be wrong.
> 
> anyway I'm sure I'm behind the times in checking stuff like this out. But ...I was very surprised. There's nothing new on it. But quite a lot of good old movies and shows.
> 
> There's hundreds of channels on it and a lot of the content you can watch on demand. OH yeah and it's free in case you're in the dark like I was.


Yeah, Pluto has grown by leaps and bounds recently. Lots of good content now.


----------



## Sparky1234

mdavej said:


> Are you talking about recording cable/OTA channels or TVE streams? Keep in mind that Tivo can't record TVE streams at all. So any extra complexity there can't be compared to Tivo.


Primarily OTA channels.


----------



## wmcbrine

powrcow said:


> I really like the idea of Channels capturing the TVE stream, but I have a hard time with the 30fps TVE streams for sports.


Some are 60 fps (including the third example spiderpumpkin posted). But, it's true, it's sometimes 30 when it should be 60. It all depends on the channel, since each provides its own feed through its own web site. You could always nag the bad ones to upgrade their PQ.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> Anybody check out PlutoTV? I was amazed at how much content it has and how much content I've heard of and that has appeal to me like the 007 channel.
> 
> and it works good. I like the simple no frills design. And commercials aren't terrible. 2 minutes at a time it seems like. It feels like fewer commercials overall than networktv. I could be wrong.
> 
> anyway I'm sure I'm behind the times in checking stuff like this out. But ...I was very surprised. There's nothing new on it. But quite a lot of good old movies and shows.
> 
> There's hundreds of channels on it and a lot of the content you can watch on demand. OH yeah and it's free in case you're in the dark like I was.


Yeah, I don't subscribe to a cable channel service, so occasionally when I want to channel surf like it's the 00s, I fire up Pluto TV and see what's playing. I really does feel a lot like cable TV: lots of reruns of all different kinds of shows and movies. And there's quite a bit of decent content on there, as you say.

As for ads, I think it's usually the same amount of ads as on regular TV for 30-minute and 60-minute episodes, because those shows generally still conform to their original run times. (If they carried fewer minutes of ads on Pluto TV, they'd last less than 30 or 60 minutes total.) However, for movies, yeah, maybe the ad load is less on Pluto TV.


----------



## mdavej

Sparky1234 said:


> Primarily OTA channels.


I don't have Channels, but I saw in a Youtube video that recording from the guide is two clicks.

I use Amazon Recast for OTA recording, and all I do is say, "record " whatever, or do two clicks from the guide. Unlike Channels, Recast is subscription free.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Sparky1234 said:


> I've looked at Channels DVR and it seems like scheduling recordings is more challenging then TiVo. Is that the case?


I haven't found it any more challenging than on TiVo. Easier, actually, since the mobile app works better than TiVo's ever did and I prefer to use my phone to set up recordings. But I find it just as easy to use via the remote as my TiVo was. The only thing I miss from TiVo is the ability to record a show in progress and have it keep what was in the buffer. Channels only starts at the point you hit record.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

mdavej said:


> I don't have Channels, but I saw in a Youtube video that recording from the guide is two clicks.
> 
> I use Amazon Recast for OTA recording, and all I do is say, "record " whatever, or do two clicks from the guide. Unlike Channels, Recast is subscription free.


Channels marks commercials on everything it records and can automatically or manually skip them. That extra click to set up recording is more than made up for by not having to click through every commercial break 30 seconds at at time.


----------



## swyman18

wmcbrine said:


> Some are 60 fps (including the third example spiderpumpkin posted). But, it's true, it's sometimes 30 when it should be 60. It all depends on the channel, since each provides its own feed through its own web site. You could always nag the bad ones to upgrade their PQ.


Which of pumpkin's screen prints is showing a 60 fps TVE recording? I don't see one.

I see the third screen print is a 60 fps OTA recording, not TVE. Unless some of the screen prints are not showing up for me.


----------



## pfiagra

New DVR in the TiVo alternative market coming in 2020?

CASA - The Smart Home for your entire Media Library


----------



## spiderpumpkin

swyman18 said:


> Which of pumpkin's screen prints is showing a 60 fps TVE recording? I don't see one.
> 
> I see the third screen print is a 60 fps OTA recording, not TVE. Unless some of the screen prints are not showing up for me.


Yeah, that third one is OTA 60 fps. I don't think any of the TV Everywhere streams are 60 fps and Channels DVR only records the actual TV Everywhere stream.

I bought a brand new HDHR Prime last week and picked up a Comcast CableCARD today. Channels DVR records those at the 60 fps Comcast is sending out.


----------



## chiguy50

trip1eX said:


> Anybody check out PlutoTV?
> 
> I like the simple no frills design. And commercials aren't terrible. 2 minutes at a time it seems like. It feels like fewer commercials overall than networktv. I could be wrong.
> 
> There's hundreds of channels on it and a lot of the content you can watch on demand. OH yeah and it's free in case you're in the dark like I was.





NashGuy said:


> As for ads, I think it's usually the same amount of ads as on regular TV for 30-minute and 60-minute episodes, because those shows generally still conform to their original run times. (If they carried fewer minutes of ads on Pluto TV, they'd last less than 30 or 60 minutes total.) However, for movies, yeah, maybe the ad load is less on Pluto TV.


Free but with ads? Sorry, that's way too expensive for my taste.


----------



## OrangeCrush

pfiagra said:


> New DVR in the TiVo alternative market coming in 2020?
> 
> CASA - The Smart Home for your entire Media Library


Interesting, but still seems fairly DiY. You have to add your own tuner, hard drive and media. I'm not sure what this offers over something like a NVidia shield, but I welcome new entrants into this space. The more the merrier, imo.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

pfiagra said:


> New DVR in the TiVo alternative market coming in 2020?
> 
> CASA - The Smart Home for your entire Media Library





OrangeCrush said:


> Interesting, but still seems fairly DiY. You have to add your own tuner, hard drive and media. I'm not sure what this offers over something like a NVidia shield, but I welcome new entrants into this space. The more the merrier, imo.


It does seem very similar to just setting up an NAS and installing Plex. And even more so than Plex, it seems too simple for many of the DIYers here. I doubt it will offer many "power user" options.


----------



## Bigg

wmcbrine said:


> Eh? Not clear to me.


It's made specifically for HDHR hardware.


----------



## wmcbrine

Bigg said:


> It's made specifically for HDHR hardware.


I've made software specifically for TiVo hardware. I guarantee you, we're not partners.


----------



## Bigg

wmcbrine said:


> I've made software specifically for TiVo hardware. I guarantee you, we're not partners.


Maybe so. It just doesn't look that way from their website.


----------



## jzinckgra

I feel dumb asking, but in trying to ditch the Bolt, there are a myriad of options. We have OTA and use Bolt to DVR as well as using the Bolt to stream Netflix/Prime. However, I bought new smart TV last year (Sony 940E) that has all and more streaming apps then the Bolt. 
For best PQ, it seems Tivo would outperform any OTA streaming device (Table, HR, Silicon). Can someone comment on how much of a "hit" I'll take on PQ by wifi streaming locals to my TV vs Tivo?

To add to my confusion, it seems Recast gets rated very well, but requires a Fire TV device. What's a Fire TV device and how is it different than the Recast? Could I use Recast with our Sony TV? There's so many options, but a lot to digest in terms of user feedback.

In the end, we only have one TV, need to have DVR for OTA. What Tivo alternative would work best for us?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

jzinckgra said:


> I feel dumb asking, but in trying to ditch the Bolt, there are a myriad of options. We have OTA and use Bolt to DVR as well as using the Bolt to stream Netflix/Prime. However, I bought new smart TV last year (Sony 940E) that has all and more streaming apps then the Bolt.
> For best PQ, it seems Tivo would outperform any OTA streaming device (Table, HR, Silicon). Can someone comment on how much of a "hit" I'll take on PQ by wifi streaming locals to my TV vs Tivo?
> 
> To add to my confusion, it seems Recast gets rated very well, but requires a Fire TV device. What's a Fire TV device and how is it different than the Recast? Could I use Recast with our Sony TV? There's so many options, but a lot to digest in terms of user feedback.
> 
> In the end, we only have one TV, need to have DVR for OTA. What Tivo alternative would work best for us?


No such thing as a dumb question here. This is all new to most people. A Recast records OTA, and connects over your network to other Fire TV devices in your home to play that content. Those other Fire TV devices are streaming boxes and sticks that you probably don't need for anything else, because you may have all the streaming apps you need in your new Sony Android TV. Also, Recast is not highly rated for picture quality.

Better options may include a Tablo DVR paired with the Tablo app for Android TV. I have no experience with that one. I am testing an HD HomeRun Quatro receiver with Channels DVR on a small NAS, and the Channels app on our TVs. I find the picture slightly more saturated than TiVo, but nobody else in the family sees a difference. Aside from that, looks good.

I don't have an Android TV. You should check yours to see if it will download the relevant app for anything we suggest here, as I believe that would be the best solution. Maybe in five years, when the TV apps don't meet your needs, then look for an add-on box. But not until then.


----------



## NashGuy

jzinckgra said:


> I feel dumb asking, but in trying to ditch the Bolt, there are a myriad of options. We have OTA and use Bolt to DVR as well as using the Bolt to stream Netflix/Prime. However, I bought new smart TV last year (Sony 940E) that has all and more streaming apps then the Bolt.
> 
> For best PQ, it seems Tivo would outperform any OTA streaming device (Table, HR, Silicon). Can someone comment on how much of a "hit" I'll take on PQ by wifi streaming locals to my TV vs Tivo?
> 
> To add to my confusion, it seems Recast gets rated very well, but requires a Fire TV device. What's a Fire TV device and how is it different than the Recast? Could I use Recast with our Sony TV? There's so many options, but a lot to digest in terms of user feedback.
> 
> In the end, we only have one TV, need to have DVR for OTA. What Tivo alternative would work best for us?


Your Sony 940E uses Google's Android TV as its smart TV app platform. So it can run any app made for Android TV. OTA DVRs other than TiVo use apps as their front-end.

There are four major options available for OTA DVR besides TiVo. The fourth of those options is the most complicated and offers various sub-options.

*1. Tablo*: You'd buy a Tablo device (with either 2 or 4 OTA tuners inside) and then connect your own USB hard drive to store recordings. To watch live and recorded TV and manage your DVR, you'd use the Tablo app, which is available for lots of different devices, including Android TV (and therefore your Sony smart TV).

Tablo lets you set the video quality to different levels; the higher the level, the better it looks but the more hard drive space recordings take up. When I tried out a Tablo a couple years back and set it to the highest level, I didn't honestly notice any different in picture quality vs. the TiVo Roamio OTA I had at the time, and I'm someone who's pretty sensitive to picture quality.

After buying the Tablo (you can buy a refurbished 2-tuner for as little as $70 right now, or a new 4-tuner for as much as $200. Their DVR service (i.e. program guide data) costs $5/mo (first month free) or $50/yr or $150 for lifetime service (which you can transfer to a new Tablo device down the road if you like). If you got the refurb 2-tuner model plus spent $50 on a 1 TB hard drive plus bought lifetime service, you're looking at a minimum of $270 on Tablo (Note: Do NOT buy their lifetime service until after you've set up your Tablo and tested it out with the first free month of DVR service. You can then decide if you want to purchase monthly, yearly or lifetime service, or simply return/resell the Tablo because you don't like it.)

*2. Fire TV Recast*: You'd need to buy the Recast (with either 2 or 4 OTA tuners inside) PLUS a Fire TV streaming device. This is because Amazon doesn't make an app for Android TV or any other platform besides their own Fire TV streaming devices for viewing and controlling the Recast DVR. So if you use a Recast, you'll need to switch inputs and remote controls over from your Sony TV to a Fire TV streamer. But a nice thing about the Recast is that it has its own built-in hard drive, so you don't need to buy that too. You can buy the 4-tuner Recast with 1 TB storage for $280 or the 2-tuner Recast with half that much storage for $230. They also sell a special bundle that includes the 2-tuner Recast plus their Fire TV 4K streaming stick plus an OTA antenna for just $250 (so basically you're getting the Fire TV 4K stick, which you need, for just an extra $20 and the antenna for free). Don't think they sell a bundle with the 4-tuner model. The Fire TV 4K stick by itself is usually $50 but I'm sure will be on sale soon for Black Friday.

Here's the really big deal about the Recast, though: no DVR service fees. So once you make the up-front hardware purchase, that's it. So you could spend as little as $250 on the bundle I linked to above, which is $20 less than the least-expensive Tablo set-up with lifetime service.

I've never used a Fire TV Recast, so can't comment first-hand on picture or sound quality there versus a TiVo. I feel like I've read that there is at least a bit of a quality hit with the Recast but maybe not a big deal? I'll leave it to you to do your research on how Tablo stacks up vs. Fire TV Recast. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, I'm sure.

*3. HDHomeRun Scribe*: This is a product similar to a Recast, an all-in-one DVR box with either 2 or 4 OTA tuners plus hard drive, but you would use their own HDHomeRun app to view live and recorded TV and manage the DVR. That app is available for your Sony TV running Android TV. The 2-tuner Scribe Duo costs $150 at Best Buy and the 4-tuner Scribe Quattro costs $250. Both come with a 1 TB hard drive. The first year of DVR service is included and then costs $35/year thereafter. This option is newer and less well-known than the first two above and I've read very little about the picture quality, features, etc. I do know that the UI of the HDHomeRun app doesn't look as good as that of the Tablo app or Fire TV Recast but that may not matter to you.

This could be your cheapest option, costing as little as $150 (although you'd still need to pay $35 year every year after the first year).

*4. HDHomeRun Connect*: This scenario is the most complicated. You'd buy an HDHomeRun Connect OTA tuner (2 or 4 tuner model) but all this device contains are tuners. It doesn't have DVR software or a hard drive built-in, so you'd also need a separate computer or NAS device to handle the DVR recording function, with recordings stored on that device. You have three options on what DVR software system to run on your computer:
A. Channels Plus
B. Plex
C. HDHomeRun DVR

I'll leave it to you to research those options if they interest you. From what I know, I'd say that Channels Plus is the highest-quality solution here and it costs $8/mo or $80/yr (no lifetime option) after a 1-month free trial.


----------



## jzinckgra

NashGuy said:


> Your Sony 940E uses Google's Android TV as its smart TV app platform. So it can run any app made for Android TV. OTA DVRs other than TiVo use apps as their front-end.
> 
> There are four major options available for OTA DVR besides TiVo. The fourth of those options is the most complicated and offers various sub-options.
> 
> *1. Tablo*: You'd buy a Tablo device (with either 2 or 4 OTA tuners inside) and then connect your own USB hard drive to store recordings. To watch live and recorded TV and manage your DVR, you'd use the Tablo app, which is available for lots of different devices, including Android TV (and therefore your Sony smart TV).
> 
> Tablo lets you set the video quality to different levels; the higher the level, the better it looks but the more hard drive space recordings take up. When I tried out a Tablo a couple years back and set it to the highest level, I didn't honestly notice any different in picture quality vs. the TiVo Roamio OTA I had at the time, and I'm someone who's pretty sensitive to picture quality.
> 
> After buying the Tablo (you can buy a refurbished 2-tuner for as little as $70 right now, or a new 4-tuner for as much as $200. Their DVR service (i.e. program guide data) costs $5/mo (first month free) or $50/yr or $150 for lifetime service (which you can transfer to a new Tablo device down the road if you like). If you got the refurb 2-tuner model plus spent $50 on a 1 TB hard drive plus bought lifetime service, you're looking at a minimum of $270 on Tablo (Note: Do NOT buy their lifetime service until after you've set up your Tablo and tested it out with the first free month of DVR service. You can then decide if you want to purchase monthly, yearly or lifetime service, or simply return/resell the Tablo because you don't like it.)
> 
> *2. Fire TV Recast*: You'd need to buy the Recast (with either 2 or 4 OTA tuners inside) PLUS a Fire TV streaming device. This is because Amazon doesn't make an app for Android TV or any other platform besides their own Fire TV streaming devices for viewing and controlling the Recast DVR. So if you use a Recast, you'll need to switch inputs and remote controls over from your Sony TV to a Fire TV streamer. But a nice thing about the Recast is that it has its own built-in hard drive, so you don't need to buy that too. You can buy the 4-tuner Recast with 1 TB storage for $280 or the 2-tuner Recast with half that much storage for $230. They also sell a special bundle that includes the 2-tuner Recast plus their Fire TV 4K streaming stick plus an OTA antenna for just $250 (so basically you're getting the Fire TV 4K stick, which you need, for just an extra $20 and the antenna for free). Don't think they sell a bundle with the 4-tuner model. The Fire TV 4K stick by itself is usually $50 but I'm sure will be on sale soon for Black Friday.
> 
> Here's the really big deal about the Recast, though: no DVR service fees. So once you make the up-front hardware purchase, that's it. So you could spend as little as $250 on the bundle I linked to above, which is $20 less than the least-expensive Tablo set-up with lifetime service.
> 
> I've never used a Fire TV Recast, so can't comment first-hand on picture or sound quality there versus a TiVo. I feel like I've read that there is at least a bit of a quality hit with the Recast but maybe not a big deal? I'll leave it to you to do your research on how Tablo stacks up vs. Fire TV Recast. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, I'm sure.
> 
> *3. HDHomeRun Scribe*: This is a product similar to a Recast, an all-in-one DVR box with either 2 or 4 OTA tuners plus hard drive, but you would use their own HDHomeRun app to view live and recorded TV and manage the DVR. That app is available for your Sony TV running Android TV. The 2-tuner Scribe Duo costs $150 at Best Buy and the 4-tuner Scribe Quattro costs $250. Both come with a 1 TB hard drive. The first year of DVR service is included and then costs $35/year thereafter. This option is newer and less well-known than the first two above and I've read very little about the picture quality, features, etc. I do know that the UI of the HDHomeRun app doesn't look as good as that of the Tablo app or Fire TV Recast but that may not matter to you.
> 
> This could be your cheapest option, costing as little as $150 (although you'd still need to pay $35 year every year after the first year).
> 
> *4. HDHomeRun Connect*: This scenario is the most complicated. You'd buy an HDHomeRun Connect OTA tuner (2 or 4 tuner model) but all this device contains are tuners. It doesn't have DVR software or a hard drive built-in, so you'd also need a separate computer or NAS device to handle the DVR recording function, with recordings stored on that device. You have three options on what DVR software system to run on your computer:
> A. Channels Plus
> B. Plex
> C. HDHomeRun DVR
> 
> I'll leave it to you to research those options if they interest you. From what I know, I'd say that Channels Plus is the highest-quality solution here and it costs $8/mo or $80/yr (no lifetime option) after a 1-month free trial.


Great responses and very helpful, thank you. I'm tempted to try Recast especially since the 2-tuner/Fire stick 4K plus antenna is $249. I already have antenna, but can sell the amazon one. I guess my only hesitation is PQ reduction of the recast vs Tivo for OTA channels. I'm not a PQ snob, but I do like a sharp/clear image.
Forgot to mention, the wife prefers the most straight forward option with as little confusion as possible


----------



## NashGuy

jzinckgra said:


> Great responses and very helpful, thank you. I'm tempted to try Recast especially since the 2-tuner/Fire stick 4K plus antenna is $249. I already have antenna, but can sell the amazon one. I guess my only hesitation is PQ reduction of the recast vs Tivo for OTA channels. I'm not a PQ snob, but I do like a sharp/clear image.
> Forgot to mention, the wife prefers the most straight forward option with as little confusion as possible


Well, if you chose to do all your TV viewing through the Fire TV 4K Stick (and simply not use your Sony TV's remote control and its built-in apps), then going with the Fire TV Recast option might be the simplest set-up. The Fire TV will have a somewhat better selection of apps than Android TV on your Sony TV, and they may run a bit smoother too. That said, going with either Tablo or HDHomeRun Scribe is pretty simple and straightforward too and would allow you to stick with using the Android TV system built into your TV.

Aside from the PQ differences, it might also come down to whether you prefer Sony's Android TV UI or the Fire TV UI. Here's an article with a good walk-through (with screenshots) of using the Recast. It will stream all live and recorded TV to the Fire TV Stick at 720p, while the Tablo can do 1080. These threads comparing the various options may also help you:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-h...recast-vs-tablo-vs-channel-master-stream.html

https://community.tablotv.com/t/tablo-vs-recast/20245


----------



## tapokata

I have used Tivo Bolts, Tablo, and currently a recast. Bolt is hdmi connected directly to TV. Tablo uses the steaming app either built in to my WebOS equipped LG Tv, or a Fire Stick app. Recast streams through the Firecast app. All DVR source material is from the same over the air antenna.

As far as picture quality, Tivo will record and playback in the resolution broadcast by the station, so it will be the best quality. The other two transcode the picture, converting to a more compressed bit rate for streaming. If you have one of the major brand sets (Sony, LG, Samsung, etc) most have very good upscaling tech to their native display mode, and the image quality for high definition sources (1080i and 720p) is very good. For SD source material (480i) typically used by the local broadcasters for the sub channel content, such as MeTv, I have found that the Tablo transcoding leaves a bit of saw toothing and artifacts on diagonal edges that once seen, are hard to ignore. I don’t see those defects in the transcode from the recast to the firestick. The FireTv has the annoying habit of rolling up the streamed bit rate (and resolution) on the fly from the start, so the image quality for a few seconds can be meh until it syncs up along your network.

Tablo transcodes and records everything on the fly, so a two tuner model can record two concurrent sources, and at the same time can stream up to six different recordings to different displays. The Recast records in native format, but streams a transcode, but can only stream two unique transcodes at the same time using two of the tuners. In other words, you can watch two different programs live from the recast while recording two others at the same time, but a third set cannot watch a unique source concurrently, so even a four tuner Recast can only stream two live channels concurrently.

Note that the OTT streaming services that offer live tv, such as You Tube Live, Hulu Live, SlingTv, and the soon to be deceased PSVue do not stream at resolutions higher than 720p/60, no matter what device is used. In other words, a 1080i HD source broadcast is transcoded down by the OTT service before streaming to your home device.


----------



## jzinckgra

NashGuy said:


> Well, if you chose to do all your TV viewing through the Fire TV 4K Stick (and simply not use your Sony TV's remote control and its built-in apps), then going with the Fire TV Recast option might be the simplest set-up. The Fire TV will have a somewhat better selection of apps than Android TV on your Sony TV, and they may run a bit smoother too. That said, going with either Tablo or HDHomeRun Scribe is pretty simple and straightforward too and would allow you to stick with using the Android TV system built into your TV.
> 
> Aside from the PQ differences, it might also come down to whether you prefer Sony's Android TV UI or the Fire TV UI. Here's an article with a good walk-through (with screenshots) of using the Recast. It will stream all live and recorded TV to the Fire TV Stick at 720p, while the Tablo can do 1080. These threads comparing the various options may also help you:
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-h...recast-vs-tablo-vs-channel-master-stream.html
> 
> https://community.tablotv.com/t/tablo-vs-recast/20245


I thought recast can display 1080? Only 720?


----------



## jebbbz

jzinckgra said:


> I thought recast can display 1080? Only 720?


Actually, 1440x720, if I recall correctly. Also, with either Tablo or Recast there is a lag on live TV channel changes as the transcoding kicks in.


----------



## aaronwt

tapokata said:


> I have used Tivo Bolts, Tablo, and currently a recast. Bolt is hdmi connected directly to TV. Tablo uses the steaming app either built in to my WebOS equipped LG Tv, or a Fire Stick app. Recast streams through the Firecast app. All DVR source material is from the same over the air antenna.
> 
> As far as picture quality, Tivo will record and playback in the resolution broadcast by the station, so it will be the best quality. The other two transcode the picture, converting to a more compressed bit rate for streaming. If you have one of the major brand sets (Sony, LG, Samsung, etc) most have very good upscaling tech to their native display mode, and the image quality for high definition sources (1080i and 720p) is very good. For SD source material (480i) typically used by the local broadcasters for the sub channel content, such as MeTv, I have found that the Tablo transcoding leaves a bit of saw toothing and artifacts on diagonal edges that once seen, are hard to ignore. I don't see those defects in the transcode from the recast to the firestick. The FireTv has the annoying habit of rolling up the streamed bit rate (and resolution) on the fly from the start, so the image quality for a few seconds can be meh until it syncs up along your network.
> 
> Tablo transcodes and records everything on the fly, so a two tuner model can record two concurrent sources, and at the same time can stream up to six different recordings to different displays. The Recast records in native format, but streams a transcode, but can only stream two unique transcodes at the same time using two of the tuners. In other words, you can watch two different programs live from the recast while recording two others at the same time, but a third set cannot watch a unique source concurrently, so even a four tuner Recast can only stream two live channels concurrently.
> 
> Note that the OTT streaming services that offer live tv, such as You Tube Live, Hulu Live, SlingTv, and the soon to be deceased PSVue do not stream at resolutions higher than 720p/60, no matter what device is used. In other words, a 1080i HD source broadcast is transcoded down by the OTT service before streaming to your home device.


But they still have much better quality than what FiOS broadcasts. Or what Comcast broadcasts.

Sent from my Galaxy S10


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

jzinckgra said:


> I thought recast can display 1080? Only 720?


Amazon obscures this by saying it can _receive_ signals in both resolutions, but their FAQ page says "Fire TV Recast transcodes 1080i streams to a resolution up to 1440x720p using H.264", and this is confirmed in many comments and reviews.

Amazon.com Help: Fire TV Recast FAQs

Amazon Fire TV Recast review: the cord cutter's DVR


----------



## NashGuy

jzinckgra said:


> I thought recast can display 1080? Only 720?


No, the Recast records the original OTA TV stream as-is, whether that's 1080i or 720p or 480i. Then as you play back recordings (or live TV), it transcodes the signal on-the-fly to 720p or 480p. Tablo, on the other hand, will transcode everything as it records to disk, based on the quality setting that you set for it. A 720p channel will still be recorded at 720p but a 1080i channel can be recorded at 1080p (although I believe if you go with that option, it will save it at only 30 frames per second, i.e. 1080p30, even though the original broadcast is at 1080i60, so there's a trade-off. Or you can have it transcode and record 1080i60 channels at 720p60.)

Another thing: Tablo introduced an automatic ad-skipping feature this year. (Don't know how well it works.) Amazon has reportedly been testing such as feature but hasn't yet rolled it out for the Recast.


----------



## NashGuy

jebbbz said:


> Actually, 1440x720, if I recall correctly. Also, with either Tablo or Recast there is a lag on live TV channel changes as the transcoding kicks in.


Yeah, when I tried out a Tablo a couple years ago, it was NOT great for channel surfing because it took several seconds to begin showing a new channel every time I changed channels. But that has since been improved with software updates, although I don't know by how much, or which is faster at changing channels now, Tablo or Recast.


----------



## tapokata

Tablo ad skipping works pretty well, but is not available in all of their apps. Unlike Tivo, it applies ad skip to all recordings (save PBS or live sports), not just those from prime time.


----------



## NashGuy

tapokata said:


> I have used Tivo Bolts, Tablo, and currently a recast. Bolt is hdmi connected directly to TV. Tablo uses the steaming app either built in to my WebOS equipped LG Tv, or a Fire Stick app. Recast streams through the Firecast app. All DVR source material is from the same over the air antenna.
> 
> As far as picture quality, Tivo will record and playback in the resolution broadcast by the station, so it will be the best quality. The other two transcode the picture, converting to a more compressed bit rate for streaming. If you have one of the major brand sets (Sony, LG, Samsung, etc) most have very good upscaling tech to their native display mode, and the image quality for high definition sources (1080i and 720p) is very good. For SD source material (480i) typically used by the local broadcasters for the sub channel content, such as MeTv, I have found that the Tablo transcoding leaves a bit of saw toothing and artifacts on diagonal edges that once seen, are hard to ignore. I don't see those defects in the transcode from the recast to the firestick. The FireTv has the annoying habit of rolling up the streamed bit rate (and resolution) on the fly from the start, so the image quality for a few seconds can be meh until it syncs up along your network.
> 
> Tablo transcodes and records everything on the fly, so a two tuner model can record two concurrent sources, and at the same time can stream up to six different recordings to different displays. The Recast records in native format, but streams a transcode, but can only stream two unique transcodes at the same time using two of the tuners. In other words, you can watch two different programs live from the recast while recording two others at the same time, but a third set cannot watch a unique source concurrently, so even a four tuner Recast can only stream two live channels concurrently.
> 
> Note that the OTT streaming services that offer live tv, such as You Tube Live, Hulu Live, SlingTv, and the soon to be deceased PSVue do not stream at resolutions higher than 720p/60, no matter what device is used. In other words, a 1080i HD source broadcast is transcoded down by the OTT service before streaming to your home device.


Nice summary. I too have read that SD picture quality is better on Fire TV Recast than on Tablo. How would you say the two compare when it comes to a 1080i channel if the Tablo is set to the optimum/best picture quality setting?

(Also, I'm pretty sure that AT&T TV Now streams 1080i channels at 1080p60, although it's possible that none of the other do. AT&T TV Now is generally reputed to have the best HD PQ among live streaming cable TV services and I can attest that it looks very, very good, as good or better than DirecTV satellite.)


----------



## tapokata

Recast via fire tv is a touch faster, although surfing still requires an alexis voice command, or mash the down part of the toggle ring on the remote to bring up a scrollable display of channel selections across the bottom of the screen, them select. Tablo surfing is a bit faster than their first generation software.


----------



## NashGuy

tapokata said:


> Tablo ad skipping works pretty well, but is not available in all of their apps. Unlike Tivo, it applies ad skip to all recordings (save PBS or live sports), not just those from prime time.


Looks like Tablo's app for Android TV does support the ad skip feature (which is apparently still in beta).
https://www.tablotv.com/blog/tablo-ota-dvr-feature-automatic-commercial-skip/


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## tapokata

It depends on the scaler in your TV. I don’t perceive any difference in 1080i source material streamed from either the Tablo or the Recast. SD source material from the Tablo may leave artufacts that may annoy some people, like me, but not others. Your experience may be different.


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## spiderpumpkin

Channels DVR, by default, streams content locally at original recorded quality. It can also stream remotely at original but that's not the usual setting.


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## Bigg

Great info in this thread! There's always some inherent loss of quality when transcoding, but how well it's done and at what bitrate will determine if you can see the difference. My concern would be that as channels share and compress more heavily, the lower quality source material will make the transcoding look worse, as it's starting with a lower quality image with less information to compress based off of. Also, I'm not sure why channel surfing speed would be an issue, we're looking at recording a few OTA shows here and there, and there are only a few channels to begin with.

Can Channels Plus stream out to devices that support it directly in MPEG-2 as recorded? Or does it have to transcode? If it can, do any Android TV devices support MPEG-2? NVidia Shield Pro?


----------



## Bigg

spiderpumpkin said:


> Channels DVR, by default, streams content locally at original recorded quality. It can also stream remotely at original but that's not the usual setting.


You read my mind! You answered most of my question before I posted it!


----------



## spiderpumpkin

NashGuy said:


> ...
> 
> *4. HDHomeRun Connect*: This scenario is the most complicated. You'd buy an HDHomeRun Connect OTA tuner (2 or 4 tuner model) but all this device contains are tuners. It doesn't have DVR software or a hard drive built-in, so you'd also need a separate computer or NAS device to handle the DVR recording function, with recordings stored on that device. You have three options on what DVR software system to run on your computer:
> A. Channels Plus
> B. Plex
> C. HDHomeRun DVR
> 
> I'll leave it to you to research those options if they interest you. From what I know, I'd say that Channels Plus is the highest-quality solution here and it costs $8/mo or $80/yr (no lifetime option) after a 1-month free trial.


Channels DVR can use a mix of HDHR OTA and HDHR Primes in any abundance.


----------



## jebbbz

NashGuy said:


> No, the Recast records the original OTA TV stream as-is...
> 
> Another thing: Tablo introduced an automatic ad-skipping feature this year. (Don't know how well it works.) Amazon has reportedly been testing such as feature but hasn't yet rolled it out for the Recast.


On the whole, it works usefully but not perfectly. It depends on the channels's transitions into and out of commercials. Distinct channel fades into and out of black work well. I still consider a feature being developed.


----------



## jebbbz

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, when I tried out a Tablo a couple years ago, it was NOT great for channel surfing because it took several seconds to begin showing a new channel every time I changed channels. But that has since been improved with software updates, although I don't know by how much, or which is faster at changing channels now, Tablo or Recast.


If, however, you are surfing among a limited number of channels, going back to a previously viewed channel may be very quick. I have only a dual tuner Tablo but it seems to continue to buffer for several minutes (I have seen it go for 30) but toggling between channels is very quick if they have both been previously tuned. Switch to a completely new channel and the buffering starts. The grid guide blinks channel numbers in red if they are still available quickly.


----------



## MassMan

I'm no pro when I comes to all this but I'm I'm running both a Tivo Premiere and a HDHR Quatrto with Channels on an old pc.

Channels is growing on me. There's a few things I'd miss, like the guide showing live tv in the corner while I surf around but the video quality on both my Apple TV 4k and my 2nd gen Fire TV (the flat one with ethernet) is very good.


----------



## tapokata

jebbbz said:


> On the whole, it works usefully but not perfectly. It depends on the channels's transitions into and out of commercials. Distinct channel fades into and out of black work well. I still consider a feature being developed.


If you have reception issues, such as low strength signal from the towers or local breakups from multi-path issues, Tablo commercial skip will typically fail. In really bad cases, Tablo will stop and restart, creating separate recordings broken up for the same show. Recast will just give you a nag screen warning at the start of the recoding playback that the signal was weak.

Tablo actually streams your completed recording out to their servers, applies the skip algorithm, and returns the auto skip enabled version back to your local drive (meaning it isn't always instantly available).


----------



## tapokata

I have looked at Channels, but already have shelled out enough money over the years for Tivo, Tablo, and Recast. I’m pretty happy with recast, and hopeful that Amazon will extend their guide integration to more than just Philo or PSVue. I also look forward to commercial skip. FireTv has a great selection of apps, and the recast used with the latest generation fire tv stick (with the volume toggle remote) is an easy solution. i have four sets connected, although only two at any one time, and the third and fourth sets are insignia Fire Tv os sets, so no stick needed at all.

All of these solutions lack a few things that would make them world beaters. Tivo doesn’t offer live tv OTT service apps. Recast locks you into a FireTv system for TV viewing. Channels is more of a roll your own set up, and Tablo supports the largest number of devices, but doesn’t offer other apps. The cost investment is all over the map. A recast at Black Friday prices, with a firetv stick, is a pretty economical investment with the simplest operation, followed next be the Tablo. Channels solutions continue to improve, but may be pricey. TiVo has been a great choice for OTA image quality and recording management, but comes at a higher cost, and limited app functionality. Hold your breath, and choose wisely.

The wife prefers the Bolt with TE3, even with a fireTv. I mostly prefer the Recast solution. That is why we have chocolate AND vanilla ice cream in this world.


----------



## jzinckgra

Why won't/can't the Smart TV manufacturers integrate a DVR into the TV set such that you could plug your OTA into the TV via the built-in DVR? PQ would be retained and you wouldn't need all these stand-alone plastic boxes.


----------



## Lurker1

NashGuy said:


> Their DVR service (i.e. program guide data) costs $5/mo (first month free) or $50/yr or $150 for lifetime service (which you can transfer to a new Tablo device down the road if you like).


Don't forget, you also have the choice to use Tablo free with no service fee. You get a 24-hr guide for free, or a 14-day guide by paying.


----------



## NashGuy

jzinckgra said:


> Why won't/can't the Smart TV manufacturers integrate a DVR into the TV set such that you could plug your OTA into the TV via the built-in DVR? PQ would be retained and you wouldn't need all these stand-alone plastic boxes.


Yeah, that exists in other parts of the world, from major brand TVs like LG. Just connect your own USB hard drive or flash drive and you can set up DVR recordings. Not sure why it isn't done here in the US. Maybe it's to avoid licensing patents from TiVo and/or paying for program guide data; perhaps the TV manufacturers think that, since OTA TV is used by relatively few Americans, it doesn't make sense to spend more money on OTA-related features for their TVs.


----------



## NashGuy

Lurker1 said:


> Don't forget, you also have the choice to use Tablo free with no service fee. You get a 24-hr guide for free, or a 14-day guide by paying.


Yeah, I tried that. It's not a great user experience, although if you're not using the Tablo for live TV and you only want to set up a few manual recordings of shows that always tend to come on at the same time (e.g. evening news, SNL, daily soap opera, etc.), then it's an OK cheap solution.


----------



## NashGuy

For those who are very interested in an OTA DVR solution that retains and stream recordings at their original quality in MPEG-2 format (i.e. doesn't transcode), consider the HDHomeRun Scribe. You must connect it to your router via ethernet, though, and I would also suggest connecting your smart TV or streaming device by ethernet too unless you have a fast, solid wifi signal. The weak point with this solution, though, is the HDHomeRun app, which has a UI and feature set that isn't as good as Tablo or Fire TV Recast.

But at $150 for a 2-tuner model with a 1TB hard drive and first year of service included ($35/yr thereafter), it's not a bad deal.

Review here:

HDHomeRun Scribe Quatro and Servio review: Great video quality, but clunky software


----------



## Bigg

Channels could be a really good solution for people who have locals in different directions, as they could use multiple HDHR tuners connected to their network, each connected to a different antenna.



tapokata said:


> Tablo actually streams your completed recording out to their servers, applies the skip algorithm, and returns the auto skip enabled version back to your local drive (meaning it isn't always instantly available).


Are you sure? That sounds like it would chew up an insane amount of bandwidth to do something relatively simple. I could see some cloud data being exchanged, but not a copy of the entire show.


----------



## tapokata

"Bigg said:


> Are you sure? That sounds like it would chew up an insane amount of bandwidth to do something relatively simple. I could see some cloud data being exchanged, but not a copy of the entire show.


Remember it is sending the transcoded file. Tablo says they send a "small portion" of the recording for analysis, and will use 100 to 200 MB/recording hour of external nternet bandwidth.


----------



## Bigg

tapokata said:


> "Bigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember it is sending the transcoded file. Tablo says they send a "small portion" of the recording for analysis, and will use 100 to 200 MB/recording hour of external nternet bandwidth.
> 
> 
> 
> That's very different than sending the entire recording. Still, that could be a burden on upstream bandwidth on a lot of cable and xDSL connections.
Click to expand...


----------



## tapokata

Yeah, the entire recording was my faulty memory (sorry, chemo brain). The bandwidth numbers are from their web site. The auto-skip function is only available on a few of their apps, and the user can opt out of the process, for the reasons you noted.


----------



## tapokata

jzinckgra said:


> Why won't/can't the Smart TV manufacturers integrate a DVR into the TV set such that you could plug your OTA into the TV via the built-in DVR? PQ would be retained and you wouldn't need all these stand-alone plastic boxes.


Funny that you say that. The Insignia Fire TV will actually buffer a few minutes of a live broadcast to the internal memory. The only drawback to expanding that to an internal hard disk drive would be the noise.

That said, a headless DVR like the Tablo, Recast, or Silicon HD- streaming from a single location to all screens on your network, cuts out the stand-alone boxes. Tablo has apps for many of the major brand smart TV systems: from their web pages:



> Tablo supports most of the following Smart TV brands and styles:
> 
> 
> Roku Smart TVs (multiple manufacturers)
> Amazon Fire TV Edition Smart TVs (multiple manufacturers)
> LG Smart TVs running LG webOS 3.0+
> Samsung Smart TVs running the TIZEN OS (US only)
> Smart TVs running an Android TV operating system (mutiple manufacturers)




It's an input change on the TV remote, but it works.


----------



## jzinckgra

So I think I am leaning towards the scribe duo for our Android TV. Anyone know when tivos patents expire? Is this the only thing preventing others from making a device like theirs? Seems like scribe is nearly the same with it's integrated harddrive but having to stream channels. I plan to use Ethernet cable to plug direct into box. Yet, from there it still goes through wifi to the TV, correct? Seems so inefficient.


----------



## mdavej

jzinckgra said:


> So I think I am leaning towards the scribe duo for our Android TV. Anyone know when tivos patents expire? Is this the only thing preventing others from making a device like theirs? Seems like scribe is nearly the same with it's integrated harddrive but having to stream channels. I plan to use Ethernet cable to plug direct into box. Yet, from there it still goes through wifi to the TV, correct? Seems so inefficient.


If you're planning to use Silicon Dust's own DVR software, you really need to watch a youtube video demo. Their software is really, really, really terrible.

Assuming the Scribe only works with SD's software, I think you'd be much better off just getting a tuner (non-Scribe version), your own hard drive and some other DVR software (Channels, Google Live TV, etc.).


----------



## jzinckgra

mdavej said:


> If you're planning to use Silicon Dust's own DVR software, you really need to watch a youtube video demo. Their software is really, really, really terrible.
> 
> Assuming the Scribe only works with SD's software, I think you'd be much better off just getting a tuner (non-Scribe version), your own hard drive and some other DVR software (Channels, Google Live TV, etc.).


Can you still use Channels even as an alternative with the scribe? I thought I read that somewhere


----------



## jzinckgra

jzinckgra said:


> Can you still use Channels even as an alternative with the scribe? I thought I read that somewhere


You're right. Scribe does not work with Channels. Too bad. I really don't want to have to get the barebones sys, a stand alone drive then Channels and then have to run that server on my PC. The scribe is much more straight forward by being able to install the app on my tv


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

jzinckgra said:


> You're right. Scribe does not work with Channels. Too bad. I really don't want to have to get the barebones sys, a stand alone drive then Channels and then have to run that server on my PC. The scribe is much more straight forward by being able to install the app on my tv


A Scribe is more plug-and-play and may be all you need, but loading Channels on a PC or an NAS is really easy, I promise. Everyone here will help, though I doubt you'd need us. I don't mind the HD HomeRun software for live TV sometimes, but for a DVR I far prefer Channels. Mine is on a Synology NAS.


----------



## Bigg

jzinckgra said:


> You're right. Scribe does not work with Channels. Too bad. I really don't want to have to get the barebones sys, a stand alone drive then Channels and then have to run that server on my PC. The scribe is much more straight forward by being able to install the app on my tv


Channels can use the Scribe's tuners, but it can't run on the Scribe. So the Scribe would be a waste over the regular tuners for Channels.


----------



## Adam C.

The Recast is back to 179.99 today.


----------



## HerronScott

jzinckgra said:


> So I think I am leaning towards the scribe duo for our Android TV. Anyone know when tivos patents expire? Is this the only thing preventing others from making a device like theirs?


I don't think there's any TiVo patent keeping someone from making a DVR like theirs. Their original core patents expired last year (Time Warp one) and possibly this year. Of course they have other patents that they've been issued later and Rovi brought their own set of patents to the combined company especially related to guide data (looking at some of the recent lawsuits against Comcast those seem to be Rovi patents).

Scott


----------



## NashGuy

jzinckgra said:


> Great responses and very helpful, thank you. I'm tempted to try Recast especially since the 2-tuner/Fire stick 4K plus antenna is $249. I already have antenna, but can sell the amazon one. I guess my only hesitation is PQ reduction of the recast vs Tivo for OTA channels. I'm not a PQ snob, but I do like a sharp/clear image.
> Forgot to mention, the wife prefers the most straight forward option with as little confusion as possible


Pre-Black Friday sale alert! Both models of the Recast are $100 off. The 500GB 2-tuner Recast is on sale now for $130 while the 1TB 4-tuner Recast is on sale for $180.

Also, the Fire TV Stick 4K is half off at $25.

Anyone looking to try out a Recast should bite now. I doubt we'll see prices go any lower. For $155 (2-tuner Recast and a Fire TV 4K stick), you've got a full OTA DVR solution for one TV with no ongoing fees. That's a hard deal to beat.


----------



## jzinckgra

NashGuy said:


> Pre-Black Friday sale alert! Both models of the Recast are $100 off. The 500GB 2-tuner Recast is on sale now for $130 while the 1TB 4-tuner Recast is on sale for $180.
> 
> Also, the Fire TV Stick 4K is half off at $25.
> 
> Anyone looking to try out a Recast should bite now. I doubt we'll see prices go any lower. For $155 (2-tuner Recast and a Fire TV 4K stick), you've got a full OTA DVR solution for one TV with no ongoing fees. That's a hard deal to beat.


Great deal. I haven't pulled trigger on hdhr yet. May reconsider recast


----------



## NashGuy

jzinckgra said:


> Great deal. I haven't pulled trigger on hdhr yet. May reconsider recast


In my experience, Amazon has a pretty liberal return policy. If you bought it and didn't like it, the most you'd likely be out would be the return shipping charge (if that).

BTW, I've read that Amazon has issued a software update to the Recast that allows users to expand recording storage space by attaching an external hard drive to the USB port. So you wouldn't be limited to the internal 500GB or 1TB storage.

Amazon Fire TV Recast now supports external USB Hard Drive Storage Expansion


----------



## jzinckgra

NashGuy said:


> In my experience, Amazon has a pretty liberal return policy. If you bought it and didn't like it, the most you'd likely be out would be the return shipping charge (if that).
> 
> BTW, I've read that Amazon has issued a software update to the Recast that allows users to expand recording storage space by attaching an external hard drive to the USB port. So you wouldn't be limited to the internal 500GB or 1TB storage.
> 
> Amazon Fire TV Recast now supports external USB Hard Drive Storage Expansion


My only hang up is still on max pq at 720. With TiVo, most of our ota shows are on major networks at 1080. We have a 75" tv so I think the reduction in pq would be quite noticeable


----------



## NashGuy

jzinckgra said:


> My only hang up is still on max pq at 720. With TiVo, most of our ota shows are on major networks at 1080.


Yeah, I get that. Don't know if you've read through this thread but maybe the reviews there would be helpful to you:
Amazon Fire TV Recast

Sounds like your decision comes down to:

Buy an HDHomeRun Scribe Duo (2 tuners, 1 TB) for $150, then $35/yr after the first year of service. Pro: Pristine non-transcoded picture quality and the ability to stay within your Sony TV's native Android TV system. Con: The HDHomeRun app, which has received poor reviews in terms of UI/UX.

OR

Buy a Fire TV Recast (2 tuners, 500 GB) plus a Fire TV Stick 4K for $155, with no ongoing service fees ever. Pro: Good UI/UX for live and recorded OTA TV that integrates well with the broader UI for streaming apps. No ongoing fees. Ability to expand storage space. Ad-skip feature is reportedly being tested with some users, so may be released to everyone soon? Con: Transcoded 720p video that reportedly looks slightly softer than a non-transcoded 1080i signal.

(BTW, in case you didn't know, the free streaming channels from Pluto TV integrate into the Fire TV's live channel guide right alongside your live OTA channels from the Recast. And if you have Prime Video and add premium subscriptions to it for HBO, Showtime, etc., then those live premium streaming channels, e.g. Showtime Extreme, will also show up in the Fire TV grid guide. Also, if you subscribe to the Philo live cable channel service, then those live streaming channels also integrate into the Fire TV grid guide. Fire TV has done a better job than any other platform to pull together live channels from various sources into one unified interface.)


----------



## Lurker1

NashGuy said:


> BTW, I've read that Amazon has issued a software update to the Recast that allows users to expand recording storage space by attaching an external hard drive to the USB port. So you wouldn't be limited to the internal 500GB or 1TB storage.


Is there an update to fix the very annoying "weak signal" message that pops up on the screen all the time? This message is a deal-breaker for me.


----------



## MassMan

I've been reading the Channels DVR forum and I'v seen the devs state that their software runs best on Apple TV. I've been testing with my Apple TV 4K, and a 2nd Gen FireTV and the FireTV buffers/stutters on live tv occasionally. The Apple TV never buffers.


----------



## NashGuy

Lurker1 said:


> Is there an update to fix the very annoying "weak signal" message that pops up on the screen all the time? This message is a deal-breaker for me.


No idea about that. The only relevant bit I've seen with regard to the Recast's tuners is this, from the Recast thread I linked above:



Scooby Doo said:


> The OTA reception is good. It picked up a few low power TV stations that my Roamio OTA did not; not very scientific or useful, but perhaps an indicator of sensitivity. I also get very occasionally some adjacent channel interference on NBC on my Roamio, which I have not yet seen on the Recast.


----------



## NashGuy

MassMan said:


> I've been reading the Channels DVR forum and I'v seen the devs state that their software runs best on Apple TV. I've been testing with my Apple TV 4K, and a 2nd Gen FireTV and the FireTV buffers/stutters on live tv occasionally. The Apple TV never buffers.


For folks willing to spend the money on it, I'd say the overall best streamer-based OTA DVR set-up is probably Channels Plus, using the Channels app on an Apple TV 4K in conjunction with an HDHomeRun Connect and the Channels DVR software running on a Mac, PC or capable NAS, with all those components connected via ethernet.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

MassMan said:


> I've been reading the Channels DVR forum and I'v seen the devs state that their software runs best on Apple TV. I've been testing with my Apple TV 4K, and a 2nd Gen FireTV and the FireTV buffers/stutters on live tv occasionally. The Apple TV never buffers.


That's not really comparing apples to apples, so-to-speak. The equivalent generation of the Apple TV 4K would be the Fire TV Stick 4K, Fire TV Cube 4K, and any other 4K Fire boxes out there, as well as the latest Fire TV edition televisions. I own a couple of those and have seen no buffering or stuttering of live TV via Channels on them.

[Edit: forgot about the Cube.]​


----------



## MassMan

Pokemon_Dad said:


> That's not really comparing apples to apples, so-to-speak. The equivalent generation of the Apple TV 4K would be the Fire TV Stick 4K and the latest Fire TV edition televisions. I have seen no buffering or stuttering of live TV on those.


You're not wrong, the Apple is new the 2nd gen FireTv is 3-4 years old. I guess I really wanted my FireTv to work better (afterall they claim it does 4K)


----------



## Charles R

Been looking at a Recast (because of the current sale) however seeing this (among other issues - their forum is rather scary especially the Recast "locking up") makes me want to return it before it's ever opened... not so much the issue rather the fact it's never been addressed. I can pretty much imagine the endless minor issues I don't have to deal with now. And lastly outside of a couple of minor updates the OS is virtually unchanged since release.

_I'm also having the same problem on my 2-tuner Recast:_

_playback goes blank at the top of the hour or 30 min. mark whenever a recording starts. I have to back out of the black screen and resume the recording I was watching. _

_I see that this problem goes back to Feb 2019. Hasn't Development been able to come up with a fix._


----------



## ncted

None of these OTA DVRs are perfect, and they all have their bugs/quirks. It is just a matter of finding one that fits your wants/needs with a minimal amount of downside. The Recast was the best fit for my wife and me, but other folks might like other solutions better. None of them seem to be unusable, so I think it is merely a matter of trying them out to see which one you like best.


----------



## Saturn

So far I've been pretty happy with Plex, but the UI for finding recently recorded shows is bad, particularly on my Samsung TV. It doesn't have the Live DVR section, so the only way to get to shows is to dig them out of the TV Shows section where they end up. Its much better on the phone, but I haven't tried the Roku app yet.


----------



## mdavej

Charles R said:


> Been looking at a Recast (because of the current sale) however seeing this (among other issues - their forum is rather scary especially the Recast "locking up") makes me want to return it before it's ever opened... not so much the issue rather the fact it's never been addressed. I can pretty much imagine the endless minor issues I don't have to deal with now. And lastly outside of a couple of minor updates the OS is virtually unchanged since release.
> 
> _I'm also having the same problem on my 2-tuner Recast:_
> 
> _playback goes blank at the top of the hour or 30 min. mark whenever a recording starts. I have to back out of the black screen and resume the recording I was watching. _
> 
> _I see that this problem goes back to Feb 2019. Hasn't Development been able to come up with a fix._


Interesting. I have experienced this a couple of times. But I never made the association to a scheduled recording starting in the background. It is annoying, and I'm disappointed it hasn't been fixed. But they have made many other changes/improvements in the mean time.

What do you mean by virtually unchanged? What sort of major updates were you looking for?


----------



## Charles R

ncted said:


> None of these OTA DVRs are perfect, and they all have their bugs/quirks. It is just a matter of finding one that fits your wants/needs with a minimal amount of downside.


I largely agree however at the same time I believe a lot of users once they make their selection tend to dismiss its drawbacks and others advantages. I call it tunnel vision and to some degree it makes it rather difficult to get a true grasp of the actual user experience.



mdavej said:


> It is annoying, and I'm disappointed it hasn't been fixed.
> 
> What do you mean by virtually unchanged? What sort of major updates were you looking for?


From reading their forum it's hard not to buy into one of the threads... _Is The Recast a "Dead" product_. Such as most of the issues since release haven't been addressed with some of them being rather serious. As an example posted last week in a thread started around the original release...

_I have the same issue as stated in the original post. Every few days my recast will just freeze up and I have to reboot it. There isn't a buffering problem and that hidden menu does help this problem. I find it odd that many of us are having this issue._

I read the rumor about possible commercial skip and went looking if there was a Beta or any details only to find it was referenced back at its initial release and nothing since.

Bottom line from what I can tell Amazon has shown very little interest in improving the Recast and even worse hardly any in addressing issues since release. If I felt they were going to address their warts and even look to improve the experience it would be much easier to buy into.


----------



## mschnebly

jzinckgra said:


> You're right. Scribe does not work with Channels. Too bad. I really don't want to have to get the barebones sys, a stand alone drive then Channels and then have to run that server on my PC. The scribe is much more straight forward by being able to install the app on my tv


You don't have to use a PC. Pne of these works perfectly with Channels.

https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Home-P...qid=1574703575&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sr=8-5&th=1


----------



## OrangeCrush

HerronScott said:


> I don't think there's any TiVo patent keeping someone from making a DVR like theirs. Their original core patents expired last year (Time Warp one) and possibly this year. Of course they have other patents that they've been issued later and Rovi brought their own set of patents to the combined company especially related to guide data (looking at some of the recent lawsuits against Comcast those seem to be Rovi patents).


Yeah, the patents have little to nothing to do with it. The cable companies demand a lot of copy-protection and DRM before a manufacturer can make a DVR that works with their systems. There are licensing fees, certifications & steep penalties (millions of dollars) imposed if any of the devices are hacked and the keys get out. It could be ruinously expensive for any small company. With cable subscribers dwindling, it's hard to see how it could ever be worthwhile to take those risks. This is why the 6-tuner HDHomeRun Prime has been in limbo for so long and just about every recent competitor in the DVR space is sticking to OTA and not even attempting true cable/cable card support aside from some experimentation w/ TVE feeds.



MassMan said:


> You're not wrong, the Apple is new the 2nd gen FireTv is 3-4 years old. I guess I really wanted my FireTv to work better (afterall they claim it does 4K)


The latest Fire TV 4k sticks are on sale again for $25


----------



## NashGuy

Charles R said:


> I read the rumor about possible commercial skip and went looking if there was a Beta or any details only to find it was referenced back at its initial release and nothing since.


Take this with a grain of salt, but Cord Cutters News said back on 9/19/19: "Now according to reports, it seems that automatic commercial skipping is also being tested by a small number of Fire TV Recast owners."

But they don't link to any underlying source of those reports.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

MassMan said:


> You're not wrong, the Apple is new the 2nd gen FireTv is 3-4 years old. I guess I really wanted my FireTv to work better (afterall they claim it does 4K)


I just saw a possible solution pop up on the Channels community forum for live TV problems on older Fire TV devices. The user wasn't seeing exactly the same issue you described, but this may still be a fix: Help with Channels app and my Fire Cube


----------



## ncted

Charles R said:


> I largely agree however at the same time I believe a lot of users once they make their selection tend to dismiss its drawbacks and others advantages. I call it tunnel vision and to some degree it makes it rather difficult to get a true grasp of the actual user experience.
> 
> From reading their forum it's hard not to buy into one of the threads... _Is The Recast a "Dead" product_. Such as most of the issues since release haven't been addressed with some of them being rather serious. As an example posted last week in a thread started around the original release...
> 
> _I have the same issue as stated in the original post. Every few days my recast will just freeze up and I have to reboot it. There isn't a buffering problem and that hidden menu does help this problem. I find it odd that many of us are having this issue._
> 
> I read the rumor about possible commercial skip and went looking if there was a Beta or any details only to find it was referenced back at its initial release and nothing since.
> 
> Bottom line from what I can tell Amazon has shown very little interest in improving the Recast and even worse hardly any in addressing issues since release. If I felt they were going to address their warts and even look to improve the experience it would be much easier to buy into.


I've maybe had to reboot my Recast once in the few months I've had it. More often, I have to restart a Firestick. One problem I've had is it missing a few recordings, I assume due to bad guide data. This was typical of my Tivo, Dish, and DirecTV DVR experiences as well. Also, occasionally, I will have to "skip back" to get a smooth picture/higher bitrate on playback of a recording, which is kind of annoying.

I see updates coming from Amazon on a regular basis, so I assume they are doing *something*, even if it is minor. Commercial skip would be cool, but it isn't a deal breaker for me, and the low signal messages need to go the heck away. Honestly, if I knew 5 months ago what I know now, I would skip the antenna and OTA DVR and go 100% streaming, given how easy it is to switch from one vendor to another. At this point, the antenna install and Recast are a sunk cost, so no point in not using them while they are useful.


----------



## NashGuy

mschnebly said:


> You don't have to use a PC. Pne of these works perfectly with Channels.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Home-Personal-Storage-WDBVXC0060HWT-NESN/dp/B076D1YV7T/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=my+cloud&qid=1574703575&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sr=8-5&th=1


Good to know. Are there any drawbacks to using a NAS such as this as opposed to a Mac or Windows PC? Does this NAS still support the Channels commercial skip feature?

I notice you can buy the 2 TB version of that WD My Cloud Home server for $140 tax-free with free shipping at B&H Photo. And you can buy a 2-tuner HDHomeRun Connect for $70 new there (or get a used/refurb one for around $50 or less on eBay). So you can buy the hardware to get started with Channels Plus DVR for around $200. Not bad. Of course, there's still the $8/mo or $80/yr service fee.

It all depends on what it is you plan to record off of your local OTA stations, of course, but I still think that, for a lot of folks, it may be difficult to justify paying ongoing OTA DVR service fees when you can get Hulu with ads for $6 or ad-free for $12 and it gives you next-day access (with superior picture quality) to all the primetime non-sports stuff from ABC, NBC and Fox (with PBS and The CW content available for free on their own apps). Not arguing in favor of one choice or the other, only that I think the presence of Hulu likely depresses demand for OTA DVRs.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Charles R said:


> Been looking at a Recast (because of the current sale) however seeing this (among other issues - their forum is rather scary especially the Recast "locking up") makes me want to return it before it's ever opened... not so much the issue rather the fact it's never been addressed. I can pretty much imagine the endless minor issues I don't have to deal with now. And lastly outside of a couple of minor updates the OS is virtually unchanged since release.
> 
> _I'm also having the same problem on my 2-tuner Recast:_
> 
> _playback goes blank at the top of the hour or 30 min. mark whenever a recording starts. I have to back out of the black screen and resume the recording I was watching. _
> 
> _I see that this problem goes back to Feb 2019. Hasn't Development been able to come up with a fix._





Charles R said:


> I largely agree however at the same time I believe a lot of users once they make their selection tend to dismiss its drawbacks and others advantages. I call it tunnel vision and to some degree it makes it rather difficult to get a true grasp of the actual user experience.
> 
> From reading their forum it's hard not to buy into one of the threads... _Is The Recast a "Dead" product_. Such as most of the issues since release haven't been addressed with some of them being rather serious. As an example posted last week in a thread started around the original release...
> 
> _I have the same issue as stated in the original post. Every few days my recast will just freeze up and I have to reboot it. There isn't a buffering problem and that hidden menu does help this problem. I find it odd that many of us are having this issue._
> 
> I read the rumor about possible commercial skip and went looking if there was a Beta or any details only to find it was referenced back at its initial release and nothing since.
> 
> Bottom line from what I can tell Amazon has shown very little interest in improving the Recast and even worse hardly any in addressing issues since release. If I felt they were going to address their warts and even look to improve the experience it would be much easier to buy into.


The launch of Amazon Music HD has a similar feeling. It's missing features users have come to expect from competitors. It's buggy. It's disappointing. Amazon has been so slow to fix and upgrade it, some are wondering if they ever will. And yet Amazon keeps selling more and more subscriptions, probably at a loss but making that up by selling other products and services to go with it. Sound familiar?


----------



## Mikeguy

NashGuy said:


> BTW, I've read that Amazon has issued a software update to the Recast that allows users to expand recording storage space by attaching an external hard drive to the USB port. So you wouldn't be limited to the internal 500GB or 1TB storage.
> 
> Amazon Fire TV Recast now supports external USB Hard Drive Storage Expansion


Hmmm, TiVo should consider doing something like that.


----------



## mschnebly

NashGuy said:


> Good to know. Are there any drawbacks to using a NAS such as this as opposed to a Mac or Windows PC? Does this NAS still support the Channels commercial skip feature?
> 
> I notice you can buy the 2 TB version of that WD My Cloud Home server for $140 tax-free with free shipping at B&H Photo. And you can buy a 2-tuner HDHomeRun Connect for $70 new there (or get a used/refurb one for around $50 or less on eBay). So you can buy the hardware to get started with Channels Plus DVR for around $200. Not bad. Of course, there's still the $8/mo or $80/yr service fee.
> 
> It all depends on what it is you plan to record off of your local OTA stations, of course, but I still think that, for a lot of folks, it may be difficult to justify paying ongoing OTA DVR service fees when you can get Hulu with ads for $6 or ad-free for $12 and it gives you next-day access (with superior picture quality) to all the primetime non-sports stuff from ABC, NBC and Fox (with PBS and The CW content available for free on their own apps). Not arguing in favor of one choice or the other, only that I think the presence of Hulu likely depresses demand for OTA DVRs.


I have the 2 T version and used it with Channels for a few months. It works exactly the same as on my NAS. Honestly I cant tell the difference. I just use the WD for other things now.


----------



## Saturn

*sigh* Plex on Roku has a decent version of Now Playing (sort the TV Shows by latest recorded), but no 30 second skip on Roku:
What happened to 30 second skip?

Anyone know if the Amazon Fire version of the Plex app does? This is a deal breaker for me - I use 30 sec skip all the time when watching football, which is pretty much the only thing I watch from TV anymore...


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

@jzinckgra as far as I know the HDHR Scribe does not have commercial skip. If so, that would be a deal breaker for most of us, as we're no longer used to just fast-forwarding thru ads. Channels does a pretty good job of automatically indexing most shows, for manual or automatic skip.


----------



## tapokata

Just another random data point, but I have never seen the lockup issue at all on the recast, and I have been using it since Prime day.


----------



## HerronScott

OrangeCrush said:


> Yeah, the patents have little to nothing to do with it. The cable companies demand a lot of copy-protection and DRM before a manufacturer can make a DVR that works with their systems. There are licensing fees, certifications & steep penalties (millions of dollars) imposed if any of the devices are hacked and the keys get out. It could be ruinously expensive for any small company. With cable subscribers dwindling, it's hard to see how it could ever be worthwhile to take those risks. This is why the 6-tuner HDHomeRun Prime has been in limbo for so long and just about every recent competitor in the DVR space is sticking to OTA and not even attempting true cable/cable card support aside from some experimentation w/ TVE feeds.


I'm not positive but I think the OP was referring more to a DVR that would attach directly to a TV rather than be headless and rely on another device for display (and they are looking at OTA alternatives).

Scott


----------



## mdavej

HerronScott said:


> I'm not positive but I think the OP was referring more to a DVR that would attach directly to a TV rather than be headless and rely on another device for display (and they are looking at OTA alternatives).
> 
> Scott


Pretty slim pickins' in that case. Only one I know of is the iView. It's only $30, but you have to add your own hard drive. And it works with timers like an old VCR. No guide to speak of. I'd have to be really, really desperate to stoop to that. OP really needs to consider headless, since all the good alternatives are headless.

EDIT: I forgot to add that the iView recordings have great names like S0248-012, which are just random numbers, no program title, channel, date or time info whatsoever. It's awesome.


----------



## NashGuy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> @jzinckgra as far as I know the HDHR Scribe does not have commercial skip. If so, that would be a deal breaker for most of us, as we're no longer used to just fast-forwarding thru ads. Channels does a pretty good job of automatically indexing most shows, for manual or automatic skip.


@jzinckgra, nope, the HDHomeRun DVR app (which is used with the HDHR Scribe) does not appear to have any kind of ad-skip feature. Here's a pretty good review of that app/service from a guy who writes about cord-cutting and has tried all the different options:

SiliconDust HDHomeRun DVR review: Buy the hardware, but you should skip the software


----------



## NashGuy

mdavej said:


> Pretty slim pickins' in that case. Only one I know of is the iView. It's only $30, but you have to add your own hard drive. And it works with timers like an old VCR. No guide to speak of. I'd have to be really, really desperate to stoop to that. OP really needs to consider headless, since all the good alternatives are headless.
> 
> EDIT: I forgot to add that the iView recordings have great names like S0248-012, which are just random numbers, no program title, channel, date or time info whatsoever. It's awesome.


Yeah, I wouldn't even refer to a product like the iView as a DVR, which, IMO, necessarily involves a program guide. But for certain use-cases, I can imagine how such a product would suffice. Saw a guy post that he was getting one for his mom because the only thing she wanted to record every day was the PBS News Hour so that she could watch it while having dinner after work. For folks with very modest OTA recording needs, who want to spend as little as possible, it gets the job done.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Another thing that doesn't get mentioned much is that Channels DVR uses Gracenote for guide data.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

spiderpumpkin said:


> Another thing that doesn't get mentioned much is that Channels DVR uses Gracenote for guide data.


This has been changing. The following FAQ from their website doesn't mention TVE, but in my setup the guide data for my Connect and TVE channels seem to be from the SiliconDust EPG. Much the DVR interface also seems to rely on the SiliconDust approach to indexing. (Neither includes the patented "SliceView", and I'm fine with that.)
----
_The app uses two different providers for EPG data. The provider chosen depends on your HDHomeRun model and your location._

_SiliconDust (same as HDHomeRun VIEW app) _
_USA, UK and Australia_
_HDHomeRun CONNECT or HDHomeRun PRIME (w/ cable card only)_

_Gracenote _
_USA ClearQAM, international DVB-T_
_HDHomeRun DUAL and other legacy tuners_

_When the app is using Gracenote for data, the "Powered by Gracenote" logo will appear on the Settings tab._


----------



## NashGuy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> This has been changing. The following FAQ from their website doesn't mention TVE, but in my setup the guide data for my Connect and TVE channels seem to be from the SiliconDust EPG. Much the DVR interface also seems to rely on the SiliconDust approach to indexing. (Neither includes the patented "SliceView", and I'm fine with that.)
> ----
> _The app uses two different providers for EPG data. The provider chosen depends on your HDHomeRun model and your location._
> 
> _SiliconDust (same as HDHomeRun VIEW app) _
> _USA, UK and Australia_
> _HDHomeRun CONNECT or HDHomeRun PRIME (w/ cable card only)_
> 
> _Gracenote _
> _USA ClearQAM, international DVB-T_
> _HDHomeRun DUAL and other legacy tuners_
> 
> _When the app is using Gracenote for data, the "Powered by Gracenote" logo will appear on the Settings tab._


Yeah, but even when the data is coming from SiliconDust, I think they're just passing on Gracenote data. See here:
Partners - SiliconDust

With regard to the Channels app specifically, I know if you subscribe to their Channels Plus service, then you get a 14-day program guide from Gracenote (coming from either Channels' or Gracenote's server). If, like me, you don't subscribe to Channels Plus and only use the Channels app with an HDHomeRun Connect for live TV (not DVR), then your program guide data comes from SiliconDust's server and it only extends forward for the next few hours.


----------



## NashGuy

spiderpumpkin said:


> Another thing that doesn't get mentioned much is that Channels DVR uses Gracenote for guide data.


I don't really know if there are *any* US OTA DVR solutions available other than TiVo that don't use Gracenote. From what I've seen, it looks like they all use Gracenote. If anyone knows otherwise, please share.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Pokemon_Dad said:


> ...
> _When the app is using Gracenote for data, the "Powered by Gracenote" logo will appear on the Settings tab._


My apps say powered by Gracenote like it mentions in faq.

I guess I mentioned Gracenote data because I've been running Channels Plus DVR for 2 months and the guide is always accurate for OTA, cable, TVEverywhere, Locast and even different Locast cities using VPN.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

spiderpumpkin said:


> My apps say powered by Gracenote like it mentions in faq.
> 
> I guess I mentioned Gracenote data because I've been running Channels Plus DVR for 2 months and the guide is always accurate for OTA, cable, TVEverywhere, Locast and even different Locast cities using VPN.


It's certainly more accurate than TiVo in my experience. For example, at least two other threads here have discussed today's SNAFU regarding an Arrow episode labeled as Batwoman. A week ago I confirmed TiVo was wrong while Channels (Gracenote/SiliconDust) was accurate. I also often find very confusing double listings for news/commentary shows in TiVo until the day of the show. No such problem in Channels.


----------



## eherberg

NashGuy said:


> I don't really know if there are *any* US OTA DVR solutions available other than TiVo that don't use Gracenote. From what I've seen, it looks like they all use Gracenote. If anyone knows otherwise, please share.


Plex DVR switched this summer, I think, from Gracenote to Rovi


----------



## pfiagra

Through Dec 22, if you pay with the Amazon Prime Rewards Visa, you can get an extra 15% back on Fire TV Recast and Fire TV Streaming Sticks at Amazon.


----------



## DBV1

I still like my TiVo Roamio OTA for quality. I think it is outstanding. I have been testing the Channels DVR with my AT&T TV Now subscription and unfortunately I can't get the quality nailed down on Channels. It is a great idea and really wish it would, as love having the ability to commercial skip on AT&T Now recordings. 

For some reason, it seems like it is recording at 30fps and not close to what AT&T Now looks like or on my TiVO for OTA's. Tried all different settings and can't get it figured out. Almost looks SD like, especially when the scenes are moving.


----------



## wmcbrine

DBV1 said:


> For some reason, it seems like it is recording at 30fps and not close to what AT&T Now looks like or on my TiVO for OTA's. Tried all different settings and can't get it figured out. Almost looks SD like, especially when the scenes are moving.


It doesn't record from AT&T Now -- it just uses that to authenticate. It records from the individual channels' TV Everywhere services (from their web sites), so the quality depends on them. Most aren't great, as you've seen.


----------



## DBV1

Yes - I understand that and sorry if I did not state that correctly. Quality is definitely not worth it for the $8 a month. Don't get a 77 A9G Oled or use my Kuro to watch almost SD quality.... 

Channels has a great concept, but have to get all channels HD quality.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

DBV1 said:


> Yes - I understand that and sorry if I did not state that correctly. Quality is definitely not worth it for the $8 a month. Don't get a 77 A9G Oled or use my Kuro to watch almost SD quality....
> 
> Channels has a great concept, but have to get all channels HD quality.


TVE is fine for us as a source of cable news shows, with OTA for everything else we record via Channels. If we watched much HD entertainment on cable channels that OTA doesn't pull in then I might have complaints, but streaming has taken over that portion of our consumption.

Still testing and looking at options here. Xfinity Instant is similar to AT&T Now, and I can envision dropping cable for Xfinity Instant with the news pack in a bundle with internet for a total cost probably less than Hulu Live TV or YTTV with standalone internet.


----------



## DBV1

Yes - I have OTA, but I record OTA with my TiVo. I purchased an HD Homerun to use with Channels, but have not taken it out of the box and will probably return it. If quality can not match my TiVo, which so far looks like it can not, based on my AT&T Now Channels App recording experience, then there is no use trying the HD Homerun. Wish it would be great quality.


----------



## wmcbrine

DBV1 said:


> If quality can not match my TiVo, which so far looks like it can not, based on my AT&T Now Channels App recording experience, then there is no use trying the HD Homerun.


The quality on OTA channels should be identical.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

DBV1 said:


> Yes - I have OTA, but I record OTA with my TiVo. I purchased an HD Homerun to use with Channels, but have not taken it out of the box and will probably return it. If quality can not match my TiVo, which so far looks like it can not, based on my AT&T Now Channels App recording experience, then there is no use trying the HD Homerun. Wish it would be great quality.


My point was you haven't yet made an apples-to-apples comparison. I think OTA looks great on Channels, better than TVE (AT&T Now, etc.). I suggest you try the HomeRun on Channels, and compare those OTA programs with OTA programs on your TiVo at your leisure.


----------



## Aaron Malloy

I've decided to get a Amazon Recast DVR. It's the 2 tuner model currently on sale for $129. I don't expect it to work as smoothly as a TiVo, being that it's new tech. But I just wanted a basic DVR now that I'm dropping my TiVo subscription. And best thing about it, no monthly fee!


----------



## Mikeguy

Aaron Malloy said:


> I've decided to get a Amazon Recast DVR. It's the 2 tuner model currently on sale for $129. I don't expect it to work as smoothly as a TiVo, being that it's new tech. But I just wanted a basic DVR now that I'm dropping my TiVo subscription. And best thing about it, no monthly fee!


Might there be a benefit to thinking about the 4-tuner version, for $50 more? More tuners always can be good.


----------



## Aaron Malloy

Mikeguy said:


> Might there be a benefit to thinking about the 4-tuner version, for $50 more? More tuners always can be good.


Sure, that's always a consideration. But I'm finding I'm watching more content via streaming than OTA. The need for the ability to record 4 programs at the exact same time just isn't there for me.


----------



## Mikeguy

Aaron Malloy said:


> Sure, that's always a consideration. But I'm finding I'm watching more content via streaming than OTA. The need for the ability to record 4 programs at the exact same time just isn't there for me.


Cool--just thought to mention it. (When I updated from my Series 2 TiVo box, with a single tuner, to a Roamio box with 4 tuners years ago it was a joy--and I still sometimes find that I run out of tuners, even though I'm an OTA guy (fortunately, my PBS station typically repeats shows overnight). It's an illness.  )


----------



## Charles R

Aaron Malloy said:


> The need for the ability to record 4 programs at the exact same time just isn't there for me.


I don't know if the Recast will clip overlapping shows so your number of (free) tuners might be reduced...


----------



## Aaron Malloy

Mikeguy said:


> Cool--just thought to mention it. (When I updated from my Series 2 TiVo box, with a single tuner, to a Roamio box with 4 tuners years ago it was a joy--and I still sometimes find that I run out of tuners, even though I'm an OTA guy (fortunately, my PBS station typically repeats shows overnight). It's an illness.  )


I record shows from PBS as well. I also have a Roamio 4 tuner model. While all of those tuners is convenient, I'm just realizing that I'm spending more time watching streaming content so it's a bit overkill for my needs and I'm just tired of paying the $15 a month.

The TiVo monthly fee can be put towards streaming apps like Britbox, which has most of the British shows that PBS broadcasts.


----------



## Aaron Malloy

Charles R said:


> I don't know if the Recast will clip overlapping shows so your number of (free) tuners might be reduced...


You may be right about that.


----------



## Mikeguy

Aaron Malloy said:


> I record shows from PBS as well. I also have a Roamio 4 tuner model. While all of those tuners is convenient, I'm just realizing that I'm spending more time watching streaming content so it's a bit overkill for my needs and I'm just tired of paying the $15 a month.
> 
> The TiVo monthly fee can be put towards streaming apps like Britbox, which has most of the British shows that PBS broadcasts.


Roamio OTA VOX 1TB refurb at WeakNees, with included Lifetime, for $299.99.


----------



## jcthorne

Does the Recast support other Android TV streaming boxes like the Shield yet or just on FireTV still?


----------



## Charles R

jcthorne said:


> Does the Recast support other Android TV streaming boxes like the Shield yet or just on FireTV still?


Just Fire devices I believe... however the Fire TV 4K is a whopping $25 now... non 4K $20.


----------



## Adam C.

I picked up my Recast from Best Buy today (same $179 price tag as Amazon). Setup was pretty simple. I have it connected via Ethernet and it seems stable with no buffering. The 720p picture quality is definitely noticeable compared to my Roamio OTA. I plan to continue using the Roamio on my main TVs and will use the Recast for live TV streaming to my lesser used TVs like the kitchen and basement. One thing I noticed right away is that some of the program guide information was missing on a couple channels for certain times. Not a big deal since this won't be my primary DVR, but something to keep in mind.

The Recast definitely performs better with the 4K Firestick. The older model Firestick is noticeably sluggish when loading and switching channels. The 4K stick is much snappier. So it's definitely worth paying 5 bucks extra for the 4K model even if you don't have a 4K TV. Streaming to my phone via wifi as well as out of home seems to be working great. I was never able to get the Tivo Stream device to work so it's nice to be able to have an out of home streaming option again.


----------



## Mikeguy

Adam C. said:


> I picked up my Recast from Best Buy today (same $179 price tag as Amazon). Setup was pretty simple. I have it connected via Ethernet and it seems stable with no buffering. The 720p picture quality is definitely noticeable compared to my Roamio OTA. I plan to continue using the Roamio on my main TVs and will use the Recast for live TV streaming to my lesser used TVs like the kitchen and basement. One thing I noticed right away is that some of the program guide information was missing on a couple channels for certain times. Not a big deal since this won't be my primary DVR, but something to keep in mind.
> 
> The Recast definitely performs better with the 4K Firestick. The older model Firestick is noticeably sluggish when loading and switching channels. The 4K stick is much snappier. So it's definitely worth paying 5 bucks extra for the 4K model even if you don't have a 4K TV. Streaming to my phone via wifi as well as out of home seems to be working great. I was never able to get the Tivo Stream device to work so it's nice to be able to have an out of home streaming option again.


Thanks for the report. It's interesting to think that the Recast currently (at its sale price) is in the $ neighborhood of the TiVo Mini VOX.


----------



## Aaron Malloy

Adam C. said:


> I picked up my Recast from Best Buy today (same $179 price tag as Amazon). Setup was pretty simple. I have it connected via Ethernet and it seems stable with no buffering. The 720p picture quality is definitely noticeable compared to my Roamio OTA. I plan to continue using the Roamio on my main TVs and will use the Recast for live TV streaming to my lesser used TVs like the kitchen and basement. One thing I noticed right away is that some of the program guide information was missing on a couple channels for certain times. Not a big deal since this won't be my primary DVR, but something to keep in mind.
> 
> The Recast definitely performs better with the 4K Firestick. The older model Firestick is noticeably sluggish when loading and switching channels. The 4K stick is much snappier. So it's definitely worth paying 5 bucks extra for the 4K model even if you don't have a 4K TV. Streaming to my phone via wifi as well as out of home seems to be working great. I was never able to get the Tivo Stream device to work so it's nice to be able to have an out of home streaming option again.


Thanks for the detailed write-up. I also saw that Best Buy was carrying it. But I wondered if the return policy is better at Amazon than BB, should I be inclined to send it back.


----------



## Lurker1

Aaron Malloy said:


> Thanks for the detailed write-up. I also saw that Best Buy was carrying it. But I wondered if the return policy is better at Amazon than BB, should I be inclined to send it back.


If Best Buy is nearby, you can take it back through January 14. Amazon used to have a no-tax advantage but they lost that, so local stores can be easier sometimes now.


----------



## Aaron Malloy

Lurker1 said:


> If Best Buy is nearby, you can take it back through January 14. Amazon used to have a no-tax advantage but they lost that, so local stores can be easier sometimes now.


I know Best Buy has been price-matching Amazon for quite some time, so I do get a number of things there. But BB can sometimes charge a restocking fee on returns.


----------



## Mikeguy

Also, the Amazon holiday purchase return period lasts to January 31, for items shipped by Amazon between Nov. 1 and Dec. 31, if that extra 2-1/2 weeks is of any import (e.g. I have a relative with an early Jan. birthday--nice to have the extra return time).


----------



## ncted

Aaron Malloy said:


> Sure, that's always a consideration. But I'm finding I'm watching more content via streaming than OTA. The need for the ability to record 4 programs at the exact same time just isn't there for me.


While I rarely record more than a couple of shows at once. I do occasionally want to record two shows and watch a third live. That said, it is not a common occurrence.


----------



## ncted

Adam C. said:


> I picked up my Recast from Best Buy today (same $179 price tag as Amazon). Setup was pretty simple. I have it connected via Ethernet and it seems stable with no buffering. The 720p picture quality is definitely noticeable compared to my Roamio OTA. I plan to continue using the Roamio on my main TVs and will use the Recast for live TV streaming to my lesser used TVs like the kitchen and basement. One thing I noticed right away is that some of the program guide information was missing on a couple channels for certain times. Not a big deal since this won't be my primary DVR, but something to keep in mind.
> 
> The Recast definitely performs better with the 4K Firestick. The older model Firestick is noticeably sluggish when loading and switching channels. The 4K stick is much snappier. So it's definitely worth paying 5 bucks extra for the 4K model even if you don't have a 4K TV. Streaming to my phone via wifi as well as out of home seems to be working great. I was never able to get the Tivo Stream device to work so it's nice to be able to have an out of home streaming option again.


I rarely look at the guide any more TBH. Kind of weird after decades of living by the guide.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Continuing this conversation from the pre-roll thread:


Amnesia said:


> I took a look at the (future) HD HomeRun Prime, but I didn't see anything about 4K in there....or did I just miss it?


Good question! I'm not certain it won't be in there when the product finally comes out, but that's right they haven't announced 4K support. I wonder if it would be worth the cost though.

As far as I know most cable companies still offer no 4K at all. Xfinity offers it in On Demand (not supported by the Prime), and they seem to be testing it on just a few minor individual sports events on specific dates.

To add 4K to the product, Silicon Dust would probably have to increase the price. It might be best to release a new model when more customers will have 4K programs to watch.


----------



## Amnesia

I can understand that. But if I'm going to buy new hardware when the HomeRun Prime is released, I'd want to hardware to be somewhat future-proofed....

...that's the same reason why I refuse to buy a Chromebook that doesn't support WiFi-6...


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Amnesia said:


> I can understand that. But if I'm going to buy new hardware when the HomeRun Prime is released, I'd want to hardware to be somewhat future-proofed....
> 
> ...that's the same reason why I refuse to buy a Chromebook that doesn't support WiFi-6...


I want my stuff future-proofed too, when it can be. But we could talking about a very distant future here, at the rate CBS, NBC, ABC, and some cable providers are moving towards it. Then they wonder why we are watching more and more streaming.


----------



## Adam C.

ncted said:


> ...that's the same reason why I refuse to buy a Chromebook that doesn't support WiFi-6...


You can buy a Chromebook for 100 bucks. How future-proof do you really need it to be. That's the thing with electronics in general, no matter what you buy there is always something new right around the corner.


----------



## Saturn

Well, for those playing along at home, I'm currently trying an HDHomeRun Connect Quadro with Plex. The Roku Plex app doesn't do a 30sec skip forward/7 sec back, making it a deal breaker for watching football - I use 30-sec skip forward between plays all the time (throwing in a few 7 sec backs as hurry-up-offense kicks in, etc). I picked up one of the Amazon Fire 4k sticks for $25 and I'm pleasantly surprised. It has 30sec forward, 10 sec back. No progress bar pops up, which is a bit annoying, but the TiVo's bar stayed up for too long anyway blocking the score bar. The forward 30 sec was very responsive, back 10 sec was a little sluggish but tolerable. I wish I could make it 7 sec back, but maybe that's hackable/tweakable.

The thing that may steer me away from Plex is its lack of a "Now Playing" equivalent. Trying to browse for the football game I wanted had everything is stuck under NFL Football. There was no way to see which game was which, both I had recorded just said S2019. No title, no nothing. Frustrating. Even the web player that has a list view doesn't show the teams. The information is there (Get Info shows the team names in the file name, but nowhere else). It seems like Plex isn't using the guide data (that is included in the subscription) to get metadata. Rather, the TV/DVR side is shoving things into the library and then relying on the library metadata service to display them. Looks like the NFL issue is known and with a version update and turning off Enhanced Guide I may be able to work around it. NFL Recordings 

Even more frustrating is that both Plex and TiVo had the wrong metadata for the game I wanted today, so neither recorded it. I triggered it on plex for the last hour or so, so I was able to try it out at least.

Leaning more towards just sticking with TiVo at this point. Still no preroll ads here. Or I may just giving up watching football (both Plex and the TiVo work fine for my wife).


----------



## osu1991

Saturn said:


> Even more frustrating is that both Plex and TiVo had the wrong metadata for the game I wanted today, so neither recorded it. I triggered it on plex for the last hour or so, so I was able to try it out at least.
> 
> .


That's because Plex now uses TiVo/Rovi for guide data, so errors will be on both of them.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Saturn said:


> Even more frustrating is that both Plex and TiVo had the wrong metadata for the game I wanted today, so neither recorded it. I triggered it on plex for the last hour or so, so I was able to try it out at least.





osu1991 said:


> That's because Plex now uses TiVo/Rovi for guide data, so errors will be on both of them.


As you probably already know, Channels DVR uses Gracenote data. In a side-by-side comparison, that has been more accurate for me than RiVo.

What other EPGs rely on Gracenote? Apparently if we want a true TiVo alternative, that must be one of the criteria.


----------



## wmcbrine

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Good question! I'm not certain it won't be in there when the product finally comes out, but that's right they haven't announced 4K support [for the HD HomeRun Prime].


The HDHR just records data streams -- it doesn't need to fully understand their content. Only the playback devices and apps need that. As long as the HDHR can record QAM, it should be ready for 4K, AFAICT.


----------



## ncted

Adam C. said:


> You can buy a Chromebook for 100 bucks. How future-proof do you really need it to be. That's the thing with electronics in general, no matter what you buy there is always something new right around the corner.


Er...I didn't post that. Amnesia did.


----------



## jcthorne

Charles R said:


> Just Fire devices I believe... however the Fire TV 4K is a whopping $25 now... non 4K $20.


Its not the money. I already own the best streaming device there is. Nvidia Shield, simply plays anything and is an amazing client for Plex which is 80% or more of our viewing now. I like what I see in the Recast but would need an Android TV app for it. Tried a HD Homerun and was not impressed, went back to Tivo and input swapping. Perhaps Tivo will someday release the streaming device apps they have long promised....or Amazon release one for thiers.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

wmcbrine said:


> The HDHR just records data streams -- it doesn't need to fully understand their content. Only the playback devices and apps need that. As long as the HDHR can record QAM, it should be ready for 4K, AFAICT.


If it could just be a software client update, that would be great. But that may require licensing of a software decoder, and well as certain amount of processing power on the client side as well. A whole new can of worms. Perhaps they're not promising it's 4K ready because none of their clients are ready?


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Pokemon_Dad said:


> If it could just be a software client update, that would be great. But that may require licensing of a software decoder, and well as certain amount of processing power on the client side as well. A whole new can of worms. Perhaps they're not promising it's 4K ready because none of their clients are ready?


In the Channels DVR forums I saw it mentioned that someone recorded 4K with Channels and HDHR Prime and Fios. Advice for HDHR newbie who is now considering Channels with DVR


----------



## spiderpumpkin

jcthorne said:


> Its not the money. I already own the best streaming device there is. Nvidia Shield, simply plays anything and is an amazing client for Plex which is 80% or more of our viewing now. I like what I see in the Recast but would need an Android TV app for it. Tried a HD Homerun and was not impressed, went back to Tivo and input swapping. Perhaps Tivo will someday release the streaming device apps they have long promised....or Amazon release one for thiers.


Tried HDHR with what? Did you try it with Channels DVR?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

spiderpumpkin said:


> In the Channels DVR forums I saw it mentioned that someone recorded 4K with Channels and HDHR Prime and Fios. Advice for HDHR newbie who is now considering Channels with DVR


Well there you go @Amnesia & @wmcbrine: a report that at least some users have used the old three-tuner Prime to record 4K programs! I wonder why the Prime 6 marketing doesn't mention that.

The same thread also notes that true future-proofing would require ATSC3 support, but that's a couple years off too and the chipsets are not yet cheaply mass-produced.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Saturn said:


> Well, for those playing along at home, I'm currently trying an HDHomeRun Connect Quadro with Plex. The Roku Plex app doesn't do a 30sec skip forward/7 sec back, making it a deal breaker for watching football - I use 30-sec skip forward between plays all the time (throwing in a few 7 sec backs as hurry-up-offense kicks in, etc). I picked up one of the Amazon Fire 4k sticks for $25 and I'm pleasantly surprised. It has 30sec forward, 10 sec back. No progress bar pops up, which is a bit annoying, but the TiVo's bar stayed up for too long anyway blocking the score bar.


You do know you can get rid of the Tivo status bar quickly by entering the Select-Play-Select-Pause-Select remote sequence, right? Makes a huge difference for trick play, but unfortunately you have to enter it after every boot because it's not sticky like the 30-sec skip.

Trick play controls are one of the key features that lets Tivo own just about every alternative.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

The "Clear" button removes the TiVo status bar too.


----------



## wmcbrine

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Well there you go @Amnesia & @wmcbrine: a report that at least some users have used the old three-tuner Prime to record 4K programs! I wonder why the Prime 6 marketing doesn't mention that.


There's hardly any to record. Fios has a couple of part-time channels, amounting to a few hours a week. Comcast had nothing.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

wmcbrine said:


> Comcast had nothing.


Almost nothing. Comcast/Xfinity offers 4K for some programs in On Demand (not supported by the Prime), and they seem to be testing it on just a few minor individual sports events on specific dates.

The biggest challenges for the Prime 6 may not be 4K or anything technical. It may be the approvals and legal liabilities involved in decoding DRM channels. The old model doesn't handle that.


----------



## Amnesia

Yeah, but there will (hopefully) be some within 5 years, which is well within the expected useful lifespan of the next DVR I buy...


----------



## wmcbrine

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Almost nothing. Comcast/Xfinity offers 4K for some programs in On Demand *(not supported by the Prime)*


My point, yes.


----------



## Bigg

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Almost nothing. Comcast/Xfinity offers 4K for some programs in On Demand (not supported by the Prime), and they seem to be testing it on just a few minor individual sports events on specific dates.
> 
> The biggest challenges for the Prime 6 may not be 4K or anything technical. It may be the approvals and legal liabilities involved in decoding DRM channels. The old model doesn't handle that.


The bigger issue is that the tech-savvy people have mostly moved on from linear TV, so their target audience, which was already a niche of a niche is now a niche of a niche of a niche, and AFAIK, none of these solutions support DRM'ed channels, so they're now targeting a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche. And add to that the fact that Comcast is moving to IPTV, and some small MSOs have stopped doing video altogether, and more will follow suit over the next few years. This is a dead market, they should all focus entirely on OTA, which at least is just a niche of a niche, and has a healthy niche-niche market.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Bigg said:


> The bigger issue is that the tech-savvy people have mostly moved on from linear TV, so their target audience, which was already a niche of a niche is now a niche of a niche of a niche, and AFAIK, none of these solutions support DRM'ed channels, so they're now targeting a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche. And add to that the fact that Comcast is moving to IPTV, and some small MSOs have stopped doing video altogether, and more will follow suit over the next few years. This is a dead market, they should all focus entirely on OTA, which at least is just a niche of a niche, and has a healthy niche-niche market.


Makes sense. I'm trying out the OTA+TVE niche of a niche right now.


----------



## randian

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Almost nothing. Comcast/Xfinity offers 4K for some programs in On Demand (not supported by the Prime), and they seem to be testing it on just a few minor individual sports events on specific dates.


I don't know why they're bothering, everybody knows they'll strangle the bit-rate so hard it won't look much better than good SD.


----------



## bbrown9

I finally got through this whole thread and what I got from it is that there are several possibilities for OTA but for a TiVo/cablecard replacement, the only real option is the cable company. I can't use OTA because my area doesn't have good reception. 
I have Verizon FIOS, no prime channels. 

Is my understanding correct? 
If so, I think I'll just stick with TiVo TE3 until I can no longer use it, and then figure out what to do from there. The options will probably be different by then


----------



## WVZR1

bbrown9 said:


> I finally got through this whole thread and what I got from it is that there are several possibilities for OTA but for a TiVo/cablecard replacement, the only real option is the cable company. I can't use OTA because my area doesn't have good reception.
> I have Verizon FIOS, no prime channels.
> 
> Is my understanding correct?
> If so, I think I'll just stick with TiVo TE3 until I can no longer use it, and then figure out what to do from there. The options will probably be different by then


That's pretty much my plan. My Xfinity is good until 7/21 so I'll just ride it out and see what develops. I imagine we're likely good for a very long while! There's many everyday that tell us different! Most of those would likely be very good applicants for the Schiff Show!!! They'll pass on anything!!!


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

bbrown9 said:


> I finally got through this whole thread and what I got from it is that there are several possibilities for OTA but for a TiVo/cablecard replacement, the only real option is the cable company. I can't use OTA because my area doesn't have good reception.
> I have Verizon FIOS, no prime channels.
> 
> Is my understanding correct?
> If so, I think I'll just stick with TiVo TE3 until I can no longer use it, and then figure out what to do from there. The options will probably be different by then


There's also TV Everywhere (TVE) access to your cable channels without a CableCARD, via the internet. Verizon FIOS offers this in several ways [details here], and an app like Channels DVR can use the same cable login credentials to stream and record those programs.

Not all cable channels can be accessed via TVE, but most of them. And they don't offer the highest visual or audio quality, but it's good enough for many. For me it's certainly good enough for news shows. Everything else we DVR is on a channel available via OTA.


----------



## mdavej

bbrown9 said:


> I finally got through this whole thread and what I got from it is that there are several possibilities for OTA but for a TiVo/cablecard replacement, the only real option is the cable company. I can't use OTA because my area doesn't have good reception.
> I have Verizon FIOS, no prime channels.
> 
> Is my understanding correct?
> If so, I think I'll just stick with TiVo TE3 until I can no longer use it, and then figure out what to do from there. The options will probably be different by then


Incorrect. Windows Media Center works pretty much the same as Tivo if you use cable card, as I've posted several times in this thread.


----------



## Bigg

bbrown9 said:


> If so, I think I'll just stick with TiVo TE3 until I can no longer use it, and then figure out what to do from there. The options will probably be different by then


FiOS probably won't be doing TV by then, they'll be moving everyone on to YouTube TV.



mdavej said:


> Incorrect. Windows Media Center works pretty much the same as Tivo if you use cable card, as I've posted several times in this thread.


Aside from being an awful piece of software in many ways, Windows MCE has a known death date of January 10, 2023, as it is not supported by Windows 10. Whether FiOS kills QAM before than is anyone's guess.

For locals only, copy-flagged functionality isn't needed, so Channels would work.


----------



## Saturn

slowbiscuit said:


> You do know you can get rid of the Tivo status bar quickly by entering the Select-Play-Select-Pause-Select remote sequence, right? Makes a huge difference for trick play, but unfortunately you have to enter it after every boot because it's not sticky like the 30-sec skip.


Ah. I'm sure I knew that at one point, but forgot. Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## mdavej

Bigg said:


> FiOS probably won't be doing TV by then, they'll be moving everyone on to YouTube TV.
> 
> Aside from being an awful piece of software in many ways, Windows MCE has a known death date of January 10, 2023, as it is not supported by Windows 10. Whether FiOS kills QAM before than is anyone's guess.
> 
> For locals only, copy-flagged functionality isn't needed, so Channels would work.


Sorry, I thought we were talking in the present tense. I also didn't realize "unsupported" operating systems stopped working immediately. I must be hallucinating when I run DOS, Win 3.1, NT, 95, and XP VMs everyday.


----------



## bbrown9

mdavej said:


> Incorrect. Windows Media Center works pretty much the same as Tivo if you use cable card, as I've posted several times in this thread.


Isn't WMC pretty much dead? Use a cable card with what? I would have to buy a new PC and a tuner that accepts a cable card. Does anyone make one of those anymore? The new PC will be running Windows 10 - I din't think WMC is supported on Windows 10. Moving from TiVo to technology that's older and essentially obsolete doesn't sound like a good idea to me.


----------



## ncted

FYI: YTTV news for those considering it:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201647444863438849


----------



## mschnebly

mdavej said:


> Sorry, I thought we were talking in the present tense. I also didn't realize "unsupported" operating systems stopped working immediately. I must be hallucinating when I run DOS, Win 3.1, NT, 95, and XP VMs everyday.


Commodore VIC-20 with the tape drive?


----------



## Bigg

mdavej said:


> Sorry, I thought we were talking in the present tense. I also didn't realize "unsupported" operating systems stopped working immediately. I must be hallucinating when I run DOS, Win 3.1, NT, 95, and XP VMs everyday.


They will still work, but are unsecure to use on the internet, and should not be used except for testing/research purposes where the internet is not used. And what about guide data? Presumably Microsoft will turn that off at some point as well, likely at the end of Windows 8 Extended Support, since there would be no reason to provide guide data to a dead product.

Further, investing in a system that is known to have an end date and is known to never receive updates again is crazy.

And that's all in addition to MCE being a terrible and piece of software to begin with that's unreliable and has a horrible UI/UX.

This is my detailed impression of MCE back in 2012 when I built an HTPC to run it:

Extremely disappointed with MCE - TheGreenButton.tv

I subsequently got a Premiere XL4, which served for 4 years as a cable DVR. A few months before I cut the cord, I got a refurb Roamio OTA on Black Friday special for $199, upgraded it to 3TB, and that's my TiVo now. I have zero reason to go back to a traditional cord, if I want sports/Olympics/news in the 2020 supercycle, I will get YouTube TV on a Roku or Nvidia Shield. Obviously the entire pay TV landscape has changed so drastically since I wrote that, I wouldn't consider investing in cable DVR hardware at this point in the game, especially considering that they may not work at all in some towns in a few years (Comcast IPTV conversion).


----------



## WVZR1

Bigg said:


> I wouldn't consider investing in cable DVR hardware at this point in the game, especially considering that they may not work at all in some towns in a few years (Comcast IPTV conversion).


*MAY NOT !!!!! * Anything moving forward needs to be an individual assessment!


----------



## mdavej

@Bigg and @bbrown9 
My experience and opinion of WMC is essentially the same as yours. It's just incorrect to say it's not an option when it still exists and works. Would it be a smart thing to do? Absolutely not. But people have done far crazier things to save a few bucks. If you have the old hardware and software and like to tinker, why not?

I decommissioned my WMC system years ago in favor of Tivo. Now I don't even use Tivo anymore. But if I powered my old WMC system back up today, it would work fine even though I can't fathom ever going back to WMC. I participated in TGB forum back then as well and had many posts trying to talk people out of WMC, but a small group still insists on using it no matter what. I have no way of knowing that such a person isn't in this thread. So I simply put all the options out there, no matter how insane they may seem to me and you.

I think we're all on the same page except for the fact that I can't say WMC won't work until it actually stops working.

I didn't intend to argue this point, as it really serves no practical purpose. I'm only correcting an incorrect statement, nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Bigg

mdavej said:


> @Bigg and @bbrown9
> My experience and opinion of WMC is essentially the same as yours. It's just incorrect to say it's not an option when it still exists and works. Would it be a smart thing to do? Absolutely not. But people have done far crazier things to save a few bucks. If you have the old hardware and software and like to tinker, why not?


True. If one wants to get a CableCard set up for MCE, it will probably work until January 10, 2023, as long as Microsoft keeps providing guide data for the handful of die-hards out there. It's sad because MCE was the right idea, it was just so poorly executed.


----------



## Charles R

Bigg said:


> If one wants to get a CableCard set up for MCE, it will probably work until January 10, 2023, as long as Microsoft keeps providing guide data for the handful of die-hards out there.


Since you can use Schedules Direct for guide data it should run forever... I used WMC for multiple years and found it just as satisfying as TiVo, DVBLink and many other DVRs.


----------



## NashGuy

Charles R said:


> Since you can use Schedules Direct for guide data it should run forever... I used WMC for multiple years and found it just as satisfying as TiVo, DVBLink and many other DVRs.


Schedules Direct is the guide data source that I use with my open-source MythTV DVR system. $25 bucks a year. Works well.


----------



## DigitalDawn

I use WMC on my Windows 7 Desktop PC with a Comcast Cable Card. Works fine. I don't really care about guide data. Just want the cable-card to decode programming.


----------



## Rey

randian said:


> I don't know why they're bothering, everybody knows they'll strangle the bit-rate so hard it won't look much better than good SD.


Don't know about that. I am using their crappy Xg1v4 and the college games I've seen in 4k HDR are beautiful. I am super anal about pic quality and it's damn good.


----------



## Bigg

Rey said:


> Don't know about that. I am using their crappy Xg1v4 and the college games I've seen in 4k HDR are beautiful. I am super anal about pic quality and it's damn good.


Except that 99% of the content isn't available in 4k, and is horrible over-compressed 720p that looks like 480p. It's actually worse than that, as due to the way it's compressed it seemingly switches back and forth between 480p-ish quality and barely 720p quality.


----------



## ncted

For those considering the Recast, I thought I should share my recent experience:

I got a message on one of my firesticks that my Recast had filled up its hard drive and would start deleting the oldest unprotected programs last night. However, when I went to check the storage usage, none of my firesticks could communicate with the Recast. It was recording the nightly news programs for my wife at the time, so I had to wait until it was done to reboot it. After reboot, it was again communicating and indeed showed the disk as almost full. It did not appear to have deleted anything I cared about.

I had a nice 1TB USB 3.0 drive I could use for storage, so I plugged that in and told the Recast to format it when prompted. After that was done, I checked the space and it showed a total of 1.9TB with ~900GB available, so all seemed well. Then, later, when my wife wanted to watch the news, she noticed that the NBC Nightly News recordings were all gone, including the most recent. After checking, there were several other shows that were completely gone, and now the storage usage was only ~600GB, with 1.3TB available. It seems that the Recast arbitrarily decided to delete ~300GB of shows. The more I use this thing, the buggier it seems. It is a good thing I have YouTubeTV, and it looks like I'll be keeping it for the foreseeable future.


----------



## mdavej

Yeah mine went out to lunch yesterday as well. I figured it was an update gone wrong. Hard power cycle fixed it. Yes, it was annoying, but I’m not too concerned since similar things have happened to every software driven device I’ve ever had, including TiVo.


----------



## Bigg

ncted said:


> For those considering the Recast, I thought I should share my recent experience:
> 
> I got a message on one of my firesticks that my Recast had filled up its hard drive and would start deleting the oldest unprotected programs last night. However, when I went to check the storage usage, none of my firesticks could communicate with the Recast. It was recording the nightly news programs for my wife at the time, so I had to wait until it was done to reboot it. After reboot, it was again communicating and indeed showed the disk as almost full. It did not appear to have deleted anything I cared about.
> 
> I had a nice 1TB USB 3.0 drive I could use for storage, so I plugged that in and told the Recast to format it when prompted. After that was done, I checked the space and it showed a total of 1.9TB with ~900GB available, so all seemed well. Then, later, when my wife wanted to watch the news, she noticed that the NBC Nightly News recordings were all gone, including the most recent. After checking, there were several other shows that were completely gone, and now the storage usage was only ~600GB, with 1.3TB available. It seems that the Recast arbitrarily decided to delete ~300GB of shows. The more I use this thing, the buggier it seems. It is a good thing I have YouTubeTV, and it looks like I'll be keeping it for the foreseeable future.


TiVo is not that bad, but during Rio, my Premiere XL4 went off the deep end and started prematurely deleting stuff after it was over 80% capacity during high-volume recording days (30+ hours of recording, some up to 17mbps).


----------



## ncted

Well, I am not going to get rid of it or anything, but it is looking more and more like a backup to OTT streaming than a primary solution these days.


----------



## dgoto

Has anyone here used the Hopper 3 DVR from Dish Network? I have been a Tivo user for more than 10 years but I am considering the Hopper 3 due to it’s exporting capabilities which seem to becoming problems with the Tivo edge. I like to save special events to my media server after recoding and is something that is important to me. The Hopper seems to be wide open for this capability. Does any one have any experience with this DVR. I presently use Comcast but once used Dish Network more than 15 years ago.


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## mdavej

I loved the Hopper. Just be aware that the transferred files would only be viewable on one of your Hoppers, as far as I know.


----------



## ncted

dgoto said:


> Has anyone here used the Hopper 3 DVR from Dish Network? I have been a Tivo user for more than 10 years but I am considering the Hopper 3 due to it's exporting capabilities which seem to becoming problems with the Tivo edge. I like to save special events to my media server after recoding and is something that is important to me. The Hopper seems to be wide open for this capability. Does any one have any experience with this DVR. I presently use Comcast but once used Dish Network more than 15 years ago.


Unless something has changed recently, shows downloaded from the Hopper are only viewable on DishAnywhere smartphone/tablet apps and HopperGo, which I am not sure you can even buy any more. How were you planning on unencrypting the recordings for playback from your media server?


----------



## tenthplanet

mdavej said:


> Yeah mine went out to lunch yesterday as well. I figured it was an update gone wrong. Hard power cycle fixed it. Yes, it was annoying, but I'm not too concerned since similar things have happened to every software driven device I've ever had, including TiVo.


Exactly, sometimes people forget that a Tivo or any other hardware dvrs are computers that record TV. All computers and their programs will do weird things from time to time. As weird things go my Bolt has done a lot less of them than any previous Tivos I've had. Talk about software problems, lets talk about cloud dvrs being accessed from streaming devices. Now we're dealing with possible software issues at both ends. Authorization errors, now those are fun.


----------



## tenthplanet

Bigg said:


> TiVo is not that bad, but during Rio, my Premiere XL4 went off the deep end and started prematurely deleting stuff after it was over 80% capacity during high-volume recording days (30+ hours of recording, some up to 17mbps).


Something has changed in the way Tivo deletes content when it thinks you are running out of hard drive space. When I was using a Premiere around 92%, things would delete that should have not. The software was very aggressive, now on the Bolt you can run it right up to the edge 99% and not lose anything.


----------



## dgoto

ncted said:


> Unless something has changed recently, shows downloaded from the Hopper are only viewable on DishAnywhere smartphone/tablet apps and HopperGo, which I am not sure you can even buy any more. How were you planning on unencrypting the recordings for playback from your media server?


Thanks for feedback. Tivo file format is also I believe unviewable outside Tivo environment but you can use video conversion software to save as mkv or mp4 and then store on my media server. What is the file format with hopper stores files?


----------



## ncted

dgoto said:


> Thanks for feedback. Tivo file format is also I believe unviewable outside Tivo environment but you can use video conversion software to save as mkv or mp4 and then store on my media server. What is the file format with hopper stores files?


Nagravision (version 3 I think) encrypted MPEG4 H.264. As far as I know it hasn't been cracked.


----------



## ncted

tenthplanet said:


> Exactly, sometimes people forget that a Tivo or any other hardware dvrs are computers that record TV. All computers and their programs will do weird things from time to time. As weird things go my Bolt has done a lot less of them than any previous Tivos I've had. Talk about software problems, lets talk about cloud dvrs being accessed from streaming devices. Now we're dealing with possible software issues at both ends. Authorization errors, now those are fun.


I expected more from Amazon based on their tablets and streaming devices. Also, my Roamio OTA never gave me a day's problem. The Minis and Stream worked perfectly as well. I guess I was just lucky.


----------



## dgoto

ncted said:


> Nagravision (version 3 I think) encrypted MPEG4 H.264. As far as I know it hasn't been cracked.


So you to be clear are saying this file format can not be played on anything other than Hopper compatible hw and the files can not be converted to other formats?


----------



## dgoto

Is it possible for someone owning a hopper 3 let me get a 2-5 min recording in the format and let me see if I can convert it


----------



## NashGuy

dgoto said:


> So you to be clear are saying this file format can not be played on anything other than Hopper compatible hw and the files can not be converted to other formats?


I'm pretty sure you can't convert recorded files from a DISH Hopper (or even their earlier model DVRs) into a format that would allow you to watch it outside of the DISH hardware/software ecosystem (e.g. on a PC, inside Plex, etc.). If that's what you're looking for, you're barking up the wrong tree with DISH.


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## Pokemon_Dad

dgoto said:


> So you to be clear are saying this file format can not be played on anything other than Hopper compatible hw and the files can not be converted to other formats?


This question about the Hopper file format is interesting. @Dan203 can you advise?


----------



## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> This question about the Hopper file format is interesting. @Dan203 can you advise?


Waste of time. That would be the biggest video piracy loophole in history and we would have found out about it years ago. Have you ever seen any evidence whatsoever that their encryption has been hacked?


----------



## ncted

dgoto said:


> So you to be clear are saying this file format can not be played on anything other than Hopper compatible hw and the files can not be converted to other formats?


As far as I can tell, that is correct.


----------



## dgoto

NashGuy said:


> I'm pretty sure you can't convert recorded files from a DISH Hopper (or even their earlier model DVRs) into a format that would allow you to watch it outside of the DISH hardware/software ecosystem (e.g. on a PC, inside Plex, etc.). If that's what you're looking for, you're barking up the wrong tree with DISH.


So does anyone here have access to hopper files where I could get a 2-5 min file and play with it see what might be done with conversion? Thanks


----------



## dgoto

I am trying to confirm Tivo is the only DVR that allows files to be exported to your PC for edited.

Since the new Edge seems to have problems with this most important capability I am presently looking for alternatives to replacing my 2 hard drive upgraded Premiere TIVOs with both still work fine. Does anyone have ideas?


----------



## reneg

dgoto said:


> I am trying to confirm Tivo is the only DVR that allows files to be exported to your PC for edited.
> 
> Since the new Edge seems to have problems with this most important capability I am presently looking for alternatives to replacing my 2 hard drive upgraded Premiere TIVOs with both still work fine. Does anyone have ideas?


Channels DVR allows files to edited on a PC, but it's more like a DIY DVR on the hardware side. Channels DVR software can run on multiple hardware platforms.


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## mdavej

dgoto said:


> I am trying to confirm Tivo is the only DVR that allows files to be exported to your PC for edited.


I've used quite a few systems that make editable files - Windows Media Center, iView, Recast, Myth, Channels, etc. But I don't have a comprehensive list as I've never really had a need to edit them. I just watch and delete. More time and trouble than it's worth, IMO.


----------



## Bigg

tenthplanet said:


> Something has changed in the way Tivo deletes content when it thinks you are running out of hard drive space. When I was using a Premiere around 92%, things would delete that should have not. The software was very aggressive, now on the Bolt you can run it right up to the edge 99% and not lose anything.


That's interesting. On TE3 or TE4? I'm just curious, it doesn't affect me now, as I have an OTA 3TB unit that can record the entire NBC Olympics broadcasts (which are also lower bitrate than back in Rio) and have room to spare.



mdavej said:


> Waste of time. That would be the biggest video piracy loophole in history and we would have found out about it years ago. Have you ever seen any evidence whatsoever that their encryption has been hacked?


Not really. People can do it with TiVo today, or go through the analog hole. It's sad that content providers and MVPDs are so paranoid about piracy. It's been proven over and over again that all DRM does is punish legitimate users. Piracy is going to be on the rise as the content owners pull content from streaming services and silo it. The game goes on.


----------



## NashGuy

dgoto said:


> I am trying to confirm Tivo is the only DVR that allows files to be exported to your PC for edited.
> 
> Since the new Edge seems to have problems with this most important capability I am presently looking for alternatives to replacing my 2 hard drive upgraded Premiere TIVOs with both still work fine. Does anyone have ideas?


Yeah, if you don't want to stick with TiVo, you should look into the "roll your own" DVR solutions like Channels or Plex or MythTV. In each of those cases, you'd probably use an HDHomeRun tuner. They don't currently sell a CableCARD model tuner but you could pick up a used HDHomeRun Prime 3. If you went with Channels, you could use its feature that locally records live streams from individual channels' websites (unlocked with your cable TV account credentials), meaning that you might not even need a tuner, although you could still use an HDHomeRun OTA tuner with an antenna to watch and record your live locals (as I don't believe any of them make themselves available via their websites the way that cable channels do).


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

NashGuy said:


> you'd probably use an HDHomeRun tuner. They don't currently sell a CableCARD model tuner but you could pick up a used HDHomeRun Prime 3.


I keep forgetting to mention this myself, but on some cable systems the Prime 3 can't handle some channels because they're DRMed. The Prime 6 is supposed to be compatible with that DRM, but maybe that's one additional reason why it's been delayed.



NashGuy said:


> you could still use an HDHomeRun OTA tuner with an antenna to watch and record your live locals (as I don't believe any of them make themselves available via their websites the way that cable channels do).


OTA looks best anyway, but Channels DVR has a beta feature to pull in NBC, ABC, and PBS via TV Everywhere streams. CBS doesn't allow that officially, though it seems to sometimes work for some users too.


----------



## tenthplanet

Bigg said:


> That's interesting. On TE3 or TE4? I'm just curious, it doesn't affect me now, as I have an OTA 3TB unit that can record the entire NBC Olympics broadcasts (which are also lower bitrate than back in Rio) and have room to spare.
> 
> Not really. People can do it with TiVo today, or go through the analog hole. It's sad that content providers and MVPDs are so paranoid about piracy. It's been proven over and over again that all DRM does is punish legitimate users. Piracy is going to be on the rise as the content owners pull content from streaming services and silo it. The game goes on.


TE4 when it became available I set off TE3 to the land of lost tech. Piracy is a choice, if people didn't use pirated material, there would be no pirates. And the average person doesn't pirate, they are busy with their lives, raising familes, holding down multiple jobs, running a side hustle. To them tech is an appliance and they look as us as if we're crazy. DRM is here to stay, most people just don't care. The world has real problems...


----------



## NashGuy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> I keep forgetting to mention this myself, but on some cable systems the Prime 3 can't handle some channels because they're DRMed. The Prime 6 is supposed to be compatible with that DRM, but maybe that's one additional reason why it's been delayed.


Yeah, I started to get into that in my post but then didn't. If you're on Comcast, the only channels with DRM (and therefore which the Prime 3 can't handle) are premiums like HBO and Showtime. If you're on other MVPDs, some of your basic cable nets may be off-limits.



Pokemon_Dad said:


> OTA looks best anyway, but Channels DVR has a beta feature to pull in NBC, ABC, and PBS via TV Everywhere streams. CBS doesn't allow that officially, though it seems to sometimes work for some users too.


Cool, I didn't know that.


----------



## ncted

dgoto said:


> I am trying to confirm Tivo is the only DVR that allows files to be exported to your PC for edited.
> 
> Since the new Edge seems to have problems with this most important capability I am presently looking for alternatives to replacing my 2 hard drive upgraded Premiere TIVOs with both still work fine. Does anyone have ideas?


I believe both Tablo and Recast files can be copied to a PC, although they are both OTA only.


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## NashGuy

Stumbled across this article yesterday. It's at least tangentially related to the recent discussion here about extracting files (recordings) from various DVR systems so that you can do what you want with them elsewhere. May be of interest to dgoto.

The best over-the-air DVR power tools for cord-cutters


----------



## Bigg

tenthplanet said:


> TE4 when it became available I set off TE3 to the land of lost tech. Piracy is a choice, if people didn't use pirated material, there would be no pirates. And the average person doesn't pirate, they are busy with their lives, raising familes, holding down multiple jobs, running a side hustle. To them tech is an appliance and they look as us as if we're crazy. DRM is here to stay, most people just don't care. The world has real problems...


If you want to talk about "real problems", then nothing on this forum matters, so just log off. Back to the regularly scheduled programming.

The fact of the matter is that most piracy is due to media not being easily available, or available in certain countries or locations at all. Although the media companies still have various staged releases, or have things that aren't available, the data shows that when things are easily available, like on Netflix, piracy goes down. When they are not, piracy goes up. While there will always be a small number of people who either pirate everything or pirate just for fun, and who wouldn't pay for anything anyways, the vast majority of pirating is created by the media companies themselves being restrictive in how they make content available.

In the early years of piracy, it seems a lot of them had their heads so far up their derrieres that they didn't understand how this works, but at this point they have no excuse, and we have to assume that any decision, like siloing content into their own streaming services, is a business decision, and they know that they are actively driving piracy, but have decided that any losses that may or may not occur due to that piracy are acceptable in furtherance of their business goals of driving customers to their streaming services or buying media or whatever the case may be.

If all media companies cared about was reducing piracy, they'd put their entire catalog on Netflix and Amazon Prime and let it grind out views, and piracy would collapse. They don't, so either they are morons who have their heads up their derrieres, or they are smart people who have crunched the numbers have figured out that the increases in piracy that they are going to directly cause by pulling content (like The Office and Disney movies) from Netflix, Amazon Prime, and other current services are worth it in order to further their goals of building their own siloed streaming services.


----------



## jebbbz

ncted said:


> I believe both Tablo and Recast files can be copied to a PC, although they are both OTA only.


I have both a Tablo and a Recast and while there are user-written programs to copy files from the Tablo I have yet to find a way to do that with my Recast.


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## tenthplanet

Remember the music industry streaming is not benefiting most artists, he pays them very little. This scares people making video content, they don't want that to happen to them. Streaming is a four bladed sword. Piracy is for losers dwelling in basements. Anytime people think they are sticking it to the man, it's the artists that get caught in crossfire. Don't think the future of video programming couldn't get worse, if the expensive programs that streaming services don't catch on...Then the future will be recycled crap and reality programming. We may all be returning to reading yet.


----------



## Amnesia

Around 15M people have signed up for Disney+ at around $50/year. That's $750M/year...I don't think they're worried too much about a few thousand people pirating _The Mandalorian_...


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## tenthplanet

Amnesia said:


> Around 15M people have signed up for Disney+ at around $50/year. That's $750M/year...I don't think they're worried too much about a few thousand people pirating _The Mandalorian_...


It's churn they will worry about, will they stay after The Mandalorian. This is something called "The Netflix problem", or what can you come up with to make people stick around ??


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## Bigg

tenthplanet said:


> Remember the music industry streaming is not benefiting most artists, he pays them very little. This scares people making video content, they don't want that to happen to them. Streaming is a four bladed sword. Piracy is for losers dwelling in basements. Anytime people think they are sticking it to the man, it's the artists that get caught in crossfire. Don't think the future of video programming couldn't get worse, if the expensive programs that streaming services don't catch on...Then the future will be recycled crap and reality programming. We may all be returning to reading yet.


That's way over-simplifying it. Right now, there is a massive glut of content, and the market can't support all of this content. There is going to have to be a rationalization of content, especially as cable TV is dying. We might not have even hit the peak yet, but at some point, the rationalization is going to come. The market simply can't support everything that is being produced right now.


----------



## ncted

jebbbz said:


> I have both a Tablo and a Recast and while there are user-written programs to copy files from the Tablo I have yet to find a way to do that with my Recast.


It isn't straightforward.

How, and why, to pull video recording files off of the Amazon Fire TV Recast DVR


----------



## jebbbz

ncted said:


> It isn't straightforward.
> 
> How, and why, to pull video recording files off of the Amazon Fire TV Recast DVR


I forgot about that. Too inconvenient for me so I put it out of my mind altogether,


----------



## tenthplanet

Bigg said:


> That's way over-simplifying it. Right now, there is a massive glut of content, and the market can't support all of this content. There is going to have to be a rationalization of content, especially as cable TV is dying. We might not have even hit the peak yet, but at some point, the rationalization is going to come. The market simply can't support everything that is being produced right now.


The OTT service apocalypse is coming, too many free services and advertisers are being selective. And that's the free stuff paid will do the same. The death of cable is exaggerated and the pain of OTT is only beginning. Enjoy the golden age of streaming it won't last.


----------



## Sparky1234

tenthplanet said:


> The OTT service apocalypse is coming, too many free services and advertisers are being selective. And that's the free stuff paid will do the same. The death of cable is exaggerated and the pain of OTT is only beginning. Enjoy the golden age of streaming it won't last.


Wow, I have the exact same crystal ball!


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## tenthplanet

Sparky1234 said:


> Wow, I have the exact same crystal ball!


How do you keep yours clean ? Mine always has fingerprints on it because everyone has to touch it.. "Ooohh a real crystal ball".


----------



## Rey

Bigg said:


> Except that 99% of the content isn't available in 4k, and is horrible over-compressed 720p that looks like 480p. It's actually worse than that, as due to the way it's compressed it seemingly switches back and forth between 480p-ish quality and barely 720p quality.


I understand that but you said "everybody knows they'll strangle the bit-rate so hard it won't look much better than good SD" so just clearing that up. I hope when they switch everything over to IPTV that this will change. Down-rezzing 1080i channels to 720p really sucks. My options are comcast, at&t and of course satellite. Did satellite for 20 years and that has its own shortcomings. Wish we had Fios but that'll never happen.


----------



## randian

Rey said:


> I understand that but you said "everybody knows they'll strangle the bit-rate so hard it won't look much better than good SD" so just clearing that up.


I'm pretty sure I said that, not Bigg, and I stand by it. If their 4k looks good now it's only a teaser. They want to invest $0 in physical plant, which makes more than a channel or two of 4k impossible unless they, as I said, "strangle the bit-rate", and maybe downrez to 1440p while they're at it. Depending on how little DNR they add while they're at it, it might look better than their current rather SD-like HD, though I'm not yet convinced they actually care if it does, since marketing is what matters here.


----------



## Rey

randian said:


> I'm pretty sure I said that, not Bigg, and I stand by it. If their 4k looks good now it's only a teaser. They want to invest $0 in physical plant, which makes more than a channel or two of 4k impossible unless they, as I said, "strangle the bit-rate", and maybe downrez to 1440p while they're at it. Depending on how little DNR they add while they're at it, it might actually look better than their current rather SD-like HD, though I'm not yet convinced they actually care if it does, since marketing is what matters here.


Yes It was you, sorry about that. I guess we'll see what happens but all I can do at this point is hope it doesn't go down like that.


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## ncted

tenthplanet said:


> The OTT service apocalypse is coming, too many free services and advertisers are being selective. And that's the free stuff paid will do the same. The death of cable is exaggerated and the pain of OTT is only beginning. Enjoy the golden age of streaming it won't last.


I think what you wrote is somewhat likely, at least in part. Cable won't go away completely, but I don't see OTT going away either. There are a number of cable systems that are just getting out of the TV business altogether, which is a ominous sign. The reality right now is the demand is rising for the "channels" to be repurposed for IP data and declining for traditional linear channel delivery. There will be some of both cable and OTT that fail and plenty of consolidation. There is a glut of content right now, and sports are still way too expensive given the stagnant/shrinking market for them. Something is going to give at some point, and I expect it won't be all one thing or another. A moderate recession should be all the catalyst needed to start the bloodbath as people look to cut expenses.


----------



## wmcbrine

tenthplanet said:


> The OTT service apocalypse is coming, too many free services and advertisers are being selective. And that's the free stuff paid will do the same. The death of cable is exaggerated and the pain of OTT is only beginning. Enjoy the golden age of streaming it won't last.


The death of cable is not exaggerated. Even big players like Verizon and Comcast are looking for the way out. (Comcast will continue to offer TV, but not _cable TV_ -- it'll be just another OTT service.) Smaller operators have already given up.

Cable operators have seen this coming for decades, and have held it back as long as they could, via data caps and throttling streaming providers -- the whole origin of "network neutrality" as an issue. But these were always temporary measures.


----------



## Adam C.

Most studies show that millennials and younger people are not subscribing to cable TV at all after they move out and are living on their own. So that does not bode well for the future of cable TV.


----------



## randian

Adam C. said:


> Most studies show that millennials and younger people are not subscribing to cable TV at all after they move out and are living on their own. So that does not bode well for the future of cable TV.


Between the balkanization of streaming sources content owners are now engaged in and massive increases in the cost of Internet service by cablecos trying to squeeze cord cutters I'd say cable TV looks pretty good. A single source replaces a bunch of streaming services (convenience) and depending on how many of those you need might even be cheaper, especially if you are over the data cap. I'm ignoring quality (Comcast, cough!) as a consideration.


----------



## ncted

If I only had what was on cable TV to watch, especially after the quality of production, writing, acting that I get from a lot of original streamed content, I'd be very disappointed, but that is a personal consideration. Other than local news, a couple of network shows, and F1, nothing we watch is on traditional, linear TV. I also pay significantly less than I would to get anything remotely similar on cable or satellite, even with paying for YTTV. I can start and stop streaming services on a whim, unlike having to call and talk to an unhelpful person to try to change programming. I don't have to pay equipment fees, which, in many cases, equal what a streaming device costs, each month.

I will say ISP charges vary a lot, and, for many people the cost of uncapped internet might make the streaming model a lot less attractive. I am lucky to have inexpensive fiber with a much larger cap than I need to stream as well as real competition in my market. If cable/satellite works for you, great, but I don't really think it plays a huge part in the future of TV. It will be there for those who want it, in some form, but I expect it to shrink in footprint and in quantity of channels.


----------



## Bigg

tenthplanet said:


> The OTT service apocalypse is coming, too many free services and advertisers are being selective. And that's the free stuff paid will do the same. The death of cable is exaggerated and the pain of OTT is only beginning. Enjoy the golden age of streaming it won't last.


The death of cable is not exaggerated. Cable's entire business model is going to fail within the next decade, probably well sooner than that. It's quite possible that cable, or at least satellite, will continue on in some sort with syndicated stuff, re-runs, and live events that are primarily distributed via streaming, but it will be effectively dead from a larger economic perspective.



Rey said:


> I understand that but you said "everybody knows they'll strangle the bit-rate so hard it won't look much better than good SD" so just clearing that up. I hope when they switch everything over to IPTV that this will change. Down-rezzing 1080i channels to 720p really sucks. My options are comcast, at&t and of course satellite. Did satellite for 20 years and that has its own shortcomings. Wish we had Fios but that'll never happen.


They're going to transmit the exact same over-compressed mess via IP to MPEG-4 boxes. It's possible that HEVC-capable boxes will get a slightly lower bitrate but much better quality feed.

Also, YouTube TV.



ncted said:


> I think what you wrote is somewhat likely, at least in part. Cable won't go away completely, but I don't see OTT going away either. There are a number of cable systems that are just getting out of the TV business altogether, which is a ominous sign. The reality right now is the demand is rising for the "channels" to be repurposed for IP data and declining for traditional linear channel delivery. There will be some of both cable and OTT that fail and plenty of consolidation. There is a glut of content right now, and sports are still way too expensive given the stagnant/shrinking market for them. Something is going to give at some point, and I expect it won't be all one thing or another. A moderate recession should be all the catalyst needed to start the bloodbath as people look to cut expenses.


Agreed. Even with an economy that is giving mixed signals, some good, some not so much, cord cutting is moving fast and furious. With sports, people are just going to give up they are so absurdly overpriced, and I suspect that once they give up those sports, they will never come back. The whole system is shooting itself in the foot in terms of sports viewership. People would pay for their team, but with cable, they are effectively forced to over-pay for a whole bunch of teams, most of which they aren't interested in.



randian said:


> A single source replaces a bunch of streaming services (convenience) and depending on how many of those you need might even be cheaper, especially if you are over the data cap. I'm ignoring quality (Comcast, cough!) as a consideration.


Except that a single source doesn't replace most of streaming. Most of the good streaming content isn't available on cable, and broadcast ratings have been tanking for several years now. And as MSOs tack on more fees, cable becomes that much more expensive than it was.



ncted said:


> I am lucky to have inexpensive fiber with a much larger cap than I need to stream as well as real competition in my market.


What's your ISP?


----------



## Adam C.

randian said:


> Between the balkanization of streaming sources content owners are now engaged in and massive increases in the cost of Internet service by cablecos trying to squeeze cord cutters I'd say cable TV looks pretty good. A single source replaces a bunch of streaming services (convenience) and depending on how many of those you need might even be cheaper, especially if you are over the data cap. I'm ignoring quality (Comcast, cough!) as a consideration.


Massive increases in the cost of internet service? My internet service went DOWN by $15/month over the past year. I have multiple ISPs in my area (Verizon and Comcast) so the competition will always keep prices low. I cancelled cable TV 3 years ago. I have an OTA antenna and a Hulu subscription. It is hardly inconvenient and I have access to more programming than I will ever have time to watch. Not to mention I'm saving over $100/month by not having a cable TV subscription...


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## ncted

Bigg said:


> What's your ISP?


AT&T Fiber. I pay $50/month for 100/100 "for as long as I subscribe," whatever that means in real terms. There are only two of us, and we typically use less than our 20% of our 1TB cap each month. If they did decide to raise my prices significantly, I can switch to Spectrum, although their regular prices keep going up, or Frontier who recently put fiber in our neighborhood, and Google still sends up flyers telling us their fiber service is coming soon to our neighborhood. As things stand now, AT&T would have to raise prices at least $20 for me to consider switching to another provider.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Adam C. said:


> Most studies show that millennials and younger people are not subscribing to cable TV at all after they move out and are living on their own. So that does not bode well for the future of cable TV.


Anecdotal but true for both of my mid-20s kids out on their own, neither sub to cable TV just HSI. My daughter watches a lot of Netflix and my son watches a lot of Twitch. Both also watch a lot of Youtube (as do my wife and I).


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

slowbiscuit said:


> Anecdotal but true for both of my mid-20s kids out on their own, neither sub to cable TV just HSI. My daughter watches a lot of Netflix and my son watches a lot of Twitch. Both also watch a lot of Youtube (as do my wife and I).


Our college kids do exactly the same.


----------



## Lurker1

ncted said:


> As things stand now, AT&T would have to raise prices at least $20 for me to consider switching to another provider.


You will know AT&T reads this forum when your rates increase by $19.


----------



## NashGuy

ncted said:


> The reality right now is the demand is rising for the "channels" to be repurposed for IP data and declining for traditional linear channel delivery.


Yeah. When you see Disney willing to cannibalize their crown-jewel entertainment cable network, FX, by putting all its content next-day on Hulu (and also have FX create their own brand of originals that will be exclusive to Hulu and not even on FX!), that's a sign that a major entertainment power is shifting from linear toward OTT, direct-to-consumer. You see similar developments happening at AT&T/WarnerMedia with regard to their upcoming HBO Max service. AT&T's CEO has likened the transition happening in video entertainment to what happened with the rise of cellular phone service, which largely (but not completely) cannibalized landline home phone service.


----------



## Bigg

ncted said:


> AT&T Fiber. I pay $50/month for 100/100 "for as long as I subscribe," whatever that means in real terms. There are only two of us, and we typically use less than our 20% of our 1TB cap each month. If they did decide to raise my prices significantly, I can switch to Spectrum, although their regular prices keep going up, or Frontier who recently put fiber in our neighborhood, and Google still sends up flyers telling us their fiber service is coming soon to our neighborhood. As things stand now, AT&T would have to raise prices at least $20 for me to consider switching to another provider.


Ah, but you do have the same 1TB cap that other large ISPs have (parts of Cox, Comcast, etc).

Wait... you have AT&T fiber AND Frontier fiber? How did that happen? It's surprising to see Frontier's insane levels of incompetence result in MORE connectivity, not less. Few areas where I am have fiber options, most are only one cable company, Frontier has VDSL, but they have mostly killed it by cutting upload speeds instead of increasing both upload and download like AT&T did.



slowbiscuit said:


> Anecdotal but true for both of my mid-20s kids out on their own, neither sub to cable TV just HSI. My daughter watches a lot of Netflix and my son watches a lot of Twitch. Both also watch a lot of Youtube (as do my wife and I).


My parents are 64 and 63, and they have cable, but my dad has gotten so into YouTube now that I set it up on his Comcast X1 box. He also watches some comedy stuff on Netflix. I doubt they'll ever cut the cord, but by hours of viewing, their cable TV viewing keeps dropping, and a good chunk of what they watch is cable and streaming.

Meanwhile, I have more stuff than I can watch between OTA, Netflix, YouTube, Amazon, Hulu, Curiositystream, and a few other streaming apps.


----------



## jcliff

Those folks using HDHomerun+Plex or a similar combo, does it work with premium channels yet? I see they added support for encryption via cablecards, but I think DRM is a bit different, right?

If you get HBO or a similar channel and want to move away from TiVo, not being able to record from a premium channel is a big feature to lose.


----------



## mdavej

jcliff said:


> Those folks using HDHomerun+Plex or a similar combo, does it work with premium channels yet? I see they added support for encryption via cablecards, but I think DRM is a bit different, right?
> 
> If you get HBO or a similar channel and want to move away from TiVo, not being able to record from a premium channel is a big feature to lose.


You can watch them, but you can't record them. The same HDHomerun + WMC CAN record ALL channels, including premiums.

Since HBO and the like have just about everything available on demand, I haven't found a need to record a single thing on any premium channel in several years even though I've always been able to do so. Not a big loss at all.


----------



## Rey

What about channels dvr + the HDHomerun? I think it can record premiums now, no?


----------



## lucidrenegade

Rey said:


> What about channels dvr + the HDHomerun? I think it can record premiums now, no?


As far as I know, no application outside of Windows Media Center can record programs flagged Copy-Once. SiliconDust has been working on it for a long time, but no results.


----------



## mdavej

Rey said:


> What about channels dvr + the HDHomerun? I think it can record premiums now, no?


Maybe. As the previous poster and I said, only WMC can record the cable feeds of premium channels using a HomeRun. But since Channels just scrapes the screen, it really depends on whether each provider's streaming app prohibits that. You'd have to ask a Channels user to confirm exactly which channels can be recorded in this way.


----------



## ncted

Bigg said:


> Ah, but you do have the same 1TB cap that other large ISPs have (parts of Cox, Comcast, etc).
> 
> Wait... you have AT&T fiber AND Frontier fiber? How did that happen? It's surprising to see Frontier's insane levels of incompetence result in MORE connectivity, not less. Few areas where I am have fiber options, most are only one cable company, Frontier has VDSL, but they have mostly killed it by cutting upload speeds instead of increasing both upload and download like AT&at


Durham was a Verizon market before they divested us. They had already put in the infrastructure for Fios. AT&T over-built on top of Frontier, and then some genius at Frontier decided that they should "compete" in our market which already has a lot of fiber and decent Spectrum service. A friend who works at Google says my neighborhood is still on their plans, bu I'd be a little surprised if they go through with it at this point.

If I wanted to get rid of the cap, I can upgrade to Gig for $20 more per month or go with Spectrum, which has stated publicly "no data caps ever." Right now we don't come anywhere near the cap, so not really a concern for us.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

jcliff said:


> Those folks using HDHomerun+Plex or a similar combo, does it work with premium channels yet?





Rey said:


> What about channels dvr + the HDHomerun? I think it can record premiums now, no?





mdavej said:


> You'd have to ask a Channels user to confirm exactly which channels can be recorded in this way.


With an HDHR Prime 3, Channels cannot record premiums like HBO. I'm not sure the Prime 6 - if it ever comes out - will support recording those channels either, because the Prime 6 web page only says you'll be able to "watch" them. I think the developers do hope to support recording too, but we'll have to wait and see. Right now WMC is the only option.


----------



## NashGuy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> With an HDHR Prime 3, Channels cannot record premiums like HBO. I'm not sure the Prime 6 - if it ever comes out - will support recording those channels either, because the Prime 6 web page only says you'll be able to "watch" them. I think the developers do hope to support recording too, but we'll have to wait and see. Right now WMC is the only option.


Hard to see how it's in SiliconDust's economic interests to spend the resources on trying to be able to record Copy-Only flagged programming like HBO. CableCARD is slowly dying, TiVo exists for folks who desire that capability, and the whole ballgame is shifting toward streaming anyhow.


----------



## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> With an HDHR Prime 3, Channels cannot record premiums like HBO. I'm not sure the Prime 6 - if it ever comes out - will support recording those channels either, because the Prime 6 web page only says you'll be able to "watch" them. I think the developers do hope to support recording too, but we'll have to wait and see. Right now WMC is the only option.


I've heard the CEO of SD himself say they know how to do it but are terrified of the liability if their encryption gets cracked. One fine would bankrupt a small company like them. So it's NEVER going to happen. There's no wait and see. Doesn't matter what the developers hope. The buck stops with the CEO.

Just like there will never be a Prime 6. I've use SD tuners since the very beginning and followed the Prime 6 very closely. They've missed every single deadline year after year after year, even after demoing the device at CES a couple of times. It ain't rocket science, but SD moves so slowly that every time they get something developed, a chip supplier stops making a component they need, so they have to start over. In the same span of time, Ceton developed two 6 tuner devices, both of which I used for years, then they exited the consumer market. So it's never going to happen. As @NashGuy said, the business case for a new cable card tuner of any kind gets weaker by the moment. SD won't even sell the 3 tuner Prime they already have.

Bottom line, I appreciate your optimism, but I think it is misplaced. The future is streaming, not cable card devices. And in that future, the content providers retain complete control of the copies and ultimately sues anyone who threatens that out of existence.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

@NashGuy @mdavej I assure you I included very little optimism when answering that question, though I try to be a glass-half-full kinda guy. But as data point, I'm certainly part of the glass-half-empty trend.

I've never subscribed to HBO or any other premium channel, everything we record except one news talk channel can be found via OTA, most weeks we watch far more streaming than DVR, and we watch almost no live TV.

And of course our Gen Z college kids will never ever get cable.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Bigg said:


> My parents are 64 and 63, and they have cable, but my dad has gotten so into YouTube now that I set it up on his Comcast X1 box. He also watches some comedy stuff on Netflix. I doubt they'll ever cut the cord, but by hours of viewing, their cable TV viewing keeps dropping, and a good chunk of what they watch is cable and streaming.
> 
> Meanwhile, I have more stuff than I can watch between OTA, Netflix, YouTube, Amazon, Hulu, Curiositystream, and a few other streaming apps.


We're in our late 50s now and I keep cable because of sports and that's it, well also that the Tivo viewing experience is about as good as you're ever going to get. But like you more and more of our watching is going to streaming (or OnDemand which is pretty much the same thing).


----------



## Saturn

The latest Plex video player update on the Amazon Fire TV stick makes things a little better - it gives visual feedback when you hit the 30s skip forward and 10s back, and adds them up to show, for instance, 90s back if you hit the 30-sec skip forward button 3 times. That's pretty nice. The guide data for football is now fixed, but you still can't tell which game is which from the menu - you have to go into each one to see the full title. Stupid use of useless icons instead of actual text... The 30sec skip forward is typically very responsive. 10 sec back varies - sometimes it is really fast, sometimes it takes a seconds or two. During one playback, seeking backwards refused to go back further than a given point in the recording. Even trying to seek multiple minutes skipped to one particular spot - really strange. 

While my TiVos are still doing their thing, I don't miss having to wait 5-10 minutes for the mini to reboot when I want to actually use it and it has locked up.

I still may give Channels a try. Plex may get incrementally better but given its background of a media repository, I'm guessing it will never be great for OTA recording.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Saturn said:


> I still may give Channels a try. Plex may get incrementally better but given its background of a media repository, I'm guessing it will never be great for OTA recording.


My impression of Plex was that it has a very pretty design but tries to do too many things, and ends up doing none of them well. I never tried the TV-related features, just music and movie file management and playback, but feedback I've seen here confirms my impression extends to other aspects.

I find Channels to be much more focused on doing DVR well, and I very much appreciate that. It's sometimes still rough around the edges, but the devs are very responsive and I feel listened to ...as opposed to constantly marketed to by Plex. A movie file import feature is now available in pre-release builds of Channels, and I plan to experiment with that soon.

(I also looked for a more focused solution for music, considering Audirvana, JRiver, and Roon before settling on LMS/Squeezebox with the Material Skin, Hi-Res enhancements, and plugins for Tidal, Qobuz, Bandcamp, and Radio Paradise.)


----------



## dadrepus

Today Amazon is offering a deal on the HDHR Extend for only $99 God way to give an alternative a try with either Silicondust's software or Plex.


----------



## reneg

dadrepus said:


> Today Amazon is offering a deal on the HDHR Extend for only $99 God way to give an alternative a try with either Silicondust's software or Plex.


I got an email yesterday from Silcondust that they are having a worldwide sale starting today. Where to Buy an HDHomeRun


----------



## OrangeCrush

The 2-tuner Connect is on sale for $65. There's very little benefit in paying more for the Extend if you'll be using it with Plex or Channels. Also, the 4-tuner Connect is $150 _$140_ but at that price, I'd just as soon buy two 2-tuner boxes. That allows easy use of multiple antennas if your reception situation is/gets tricky.

Edit: had the 4-tuner price off by $10


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

dadrepus said:


> Today Amazon is offering a deal on the HDHR Extend for only $99. Good way to give an alternative a try with either Silicondust's software or Plex.


The Connect models have newer chipsets that I'm told do a better job picking up some channels. As all models are on sale, I'd go with the latest.


----------



## Bigg

OrangeCrush said:


> The 2-tuner Connect is on sale for $65. There's very little benefit in paying more for the Extend if you'll be using it with Plex or Channels. Also, the 4-tuner connect is $150 but at that price, I'd just as soon buy two 2-tuner boxes. That allows easy use of multiple antennas if your reception situation is/gets tricky.


Depends on where your stations are and if that's an issue. In my market, for example, my UHF stations are clustered, and the one oddball is VHF, so that can be done on the RF side. Although if I want to try and hit Springfield or Providence, I guess multiple tuners would be useful. The downside of multiple boxes is that you have multiple boxes, PSUs, coax cables, and ethernet cables.


----------



## trip1eX

Pokemon_Dad said:


> @NashGuy @mdavej I assure you I included very little optimism when answering that question, though I try to be a glass-half-full kinda guy. But as data point, I'm certainly part of the glass-half-empty trend.


to be a glass half full kind of guy, the glass has to be filled up to the 50% line.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Bigg said:


> The downside of multiple boxes is that you have multiple boxes, PSUs, coax cables, and ethernet cables.


True, but going with two 2-tuner boxes is $20 cheaper right now and affords an extra degree of flexibility that might be handy now or in the future. The internal wiring of a 4-tuner box is probably less lossy than you'd get through a splitter and extra coax to two 2-tuner boxes, but it shouldn't make a substantial difference in overall reception. To my thinking, two boxes can do everything one bigger box can do and more at the expense of a little untidiness. $20 will buy plenty of cable ties to keep everything neat.

(Looks like I had the wrong price for the 4-tuner box, I'm seeing it for $140 now, so just a $10 difference vs. two 2-tuner Connects)


----------



## jcliff

I got a HDHomerun Connect and setup the Plex DVR. It's neat, but... kind of unreliable. Sometimes things don't record at all or the recording is garbled and I don't know why. And it's definitely gonna depend on your hardware/NAS in terms of how well it can keep up with encoding.

What's interesting to me is that it's even encoding live watching. Which makes sense once you think about it, but isn't something I considered. That means channel surfing is pretty much a no, since your system will have to buffer anything you want to watch. So maybe the "Live TV" part should be lowercase, as it's possible but nothing about it is setup to compete with the most basic TV guide.

The guide is also incredibly slow to update, but it has a built-in feature to try and cut commercials.

I had to experiment with different Plex transcoder and Plex DVR settings before I could even watch a channel. So definitely not an "out of the box" solution.

Since my Bolts do OTA or cable and lifetime, it's not a compelling enough solution that I'd consider using it as my main DVR. Now if I only had one TiVo, it was month-to-month, and it broke... I might think differently.



Saturn said:


> I still may give Channels a try. Plex may get incrementally better but given its background of a media repository, I'm guessing it will never be great for OTA recording.





Pokemon_Dad said:


> My impression of Plex was that it has a very pretty design but tries to do too many things, and ends up doing none of them well.


This isn't a bad way of describing it. Except Plex does the one thing it was originally meant for well. It's a media server, with wide support for different devices as clients. If you want to stream TV/movies to your tablet/phone/laptop/Roku/FireTV/Android TV/etc. and you don't mind letting Plex scrape your metadata with as little input from you as possible, it's fantastic.

But the bonus features they've added over the years tend to be more half-baked. Hardware transcoding, DVR/Live TV, syncing (they killed their Plex cloud service), plugins (useful but they've now abandoned it completely, apparently only a small % of users needed it), parental controls, integrating online content into your library... none of it feels like a finished product.

When it works for you, it's great! I'm a lifetime subscriber myself. But if you're the type who wants to control every aspect of your library similar to Kodi or you don't want to do much troubleshooting if your particular setup doesn't work, then it may not be the best fit.

Plex also seems in a similar position to TiVo, in that it needs revenue so it's pushing their own ad-supported content service:

Plex Introduces Free TV Show And Movie Streaming For Its Do Everything Media Platform | HotHardware

So I'd guess less and less work will be directed at long-standing feature requests (things labeling subtitle/audio tracks):

Feature Suggestions

And more towards their streaming service.

Two HUGE differences to TiVo+ being that A) it's very easy to hide from the main menu, and B) the content is a LOT better:










Sure, there's the usual stinkers in there. But also things I might actually want to watch.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

trip1eX said:


> to be a glass half full kind of guy, the glass has to be filled up to the 50% line.


Depends. Is it three fingers of Glenlivet? I'd be fully happy with that.


----------



## OrangeCrush

jcliff said:


> Except Plex does the one thing it was originally meant for well. It's a media server, with wide support for different devices as clients. If you want to stream TV/movies to your tablet/phone/laptop/Roku/FireTV/Android TV/etc. and you don't mind letting Plex scrape your metadata with as little input from you as possible, it's fantastic.


It does, but there was a period of time where they made a lot of goofy UI decisions that they only recently corrected course on. I think Plex's problem is they've made a good media server and now there's not much else to do. I have a lifetime subscription, so I'm not giving them any more money. I get that they need to keep chasing the next dollar, but they need to do it in a way that doesn't bother me and add more crap to my screens. I have no interest in News, Podcasts, Ad supported movies & TV, etc. I just want it to be a media library, not a dessert topping AND a floor wax.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

jcliff said:


> This isn't a bad way of describing it. Except Plex does the one thing it was originally meant for well. It's a media server, with wide support for different devices as clients. If you want to stream TV/movies to your tablet/phone/laptop/Roku/FireTV/Android TV/etc. and you don't mind letting Plex scrape your metadata with as little input from you as possible, it's fantastic.
> 
> But the bonus features they've added over the years tend to be more half-baked. Hardware transcoding,


Great review, great points. Transcoding was the last straw for me; their server-side approach causes too many delays. I also hated that I couldn't adjust the arrangement of my library in the initial display each time the app opened. When I lost all meta data during an upgrade, I deleted the whole thing and moved on.


----------



## dadrepus

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Great review, great points. Transcoding was the last straw for me; their server-side approach causes too many delays. I also hated that I couldn't adjust the arrangement of my library in the initial display each time the app opened. When I lost all meta data during an upgrade, I deleted the whole thing and moved on.


Moved on to what? I must admit I am a Plex user and there are many things about the App that I love. But.. much that infuriates me, (1)removing the plugins folder had me loose my Tivo-to-go plugin that allowed me to watch all my recordings in Plex.(2) Allowing special "extras" recordings in Movie dvds but not for TV dvds to show up under each dvd (this has been asked for, for years). Redoing the UI so ONLY their paid stuff show up on the home page (after an upgrade), then making me putz around with the UI to fix everything really pissed me off. And they have basically abandoned the TIVO and Raspberry Pi as a client platform.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

dadrepus said:


> Moved on to what?


I feel your pain. This is what I moved on to, which would not address your points 1 & 2 but I'm happier: https://www.tivocommunity.com/com...


----------



## foghorn2

Im going with AirTv2 and Sling Blue vis firestick with KODI sideloaded.

F Tivo!


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

foghorn2 said:


> Im going with AirTv2 and Sling Blue vis firestick with KODI sideloaded.
> 
> F Tivo!


The AirTV 2 looks like an interesting little product! Please let us know how it works.


----------



## NashGuy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> The AirTV 2 looks like an interesting little product! Please let us know how it works.


Unless something has changed, DISH/Sling sells this product and gives away OTA DVR service with it (if you connect your own USB hard drive). In the past, you could use the AirTV with either the Sling app or the standalone AirTV app. Looks like it now requires you to use the Sling app, but I don't think you need to actually subscribe to a Sling streaming pay TV package. The set-up doc for the AirTV 2 still says you just need to create a free Sling account. Of course, their hope is that you will choose to subscribe to Sling and have local live and recorded TV integrated in with live streaming channels and their associated cloud DVR.

I can see them giving away free OTA DVR service for Sling subscribers but I'm surprised that they offer it to those who don't subscribe. Seems like they might try to charge those folks a few bucks per month, as HDHomeRun, Channels Plus and Plex all do.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

NashGuy said:


> Unless something has changed, DISH/Sling sells this product and gives away OTA DVR service with it (if you connect your own USB hard drive). In the past, you could use the AirTV with either the Sling app or the standalone AirTV app. Looks like it now requires you to use the Sling app, but I don't think you need to actually subscribe to a Sling streaming pay TV package. The set-up doc for the AirTV 2 still says you just need to create a free Sling account. Of course, their hope is that you will choose to subscribe to Sling and have local live and recorded TV integrated in with live streaming channels and their associated cloud DVR.
> 
> I can see them giving away free OTA DVR service for Sling subscribers but I'm surprised that they offer it to those who don't subscribe. Seems like they might try to charge those folks a few bucks per month, as HDHomeRun, Channels Plus and Plex all do.


Interesting. I would expect to find after setup that the program guide only offers a day or two of data, if anything at all. That would be an incentive to subscribe to something from Sling.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Based on comments under the CordCutters News article, the new TiVo Stream 4K is a rebadged AirTV Mini based on Android TV.

It does not seem to include the OTA features of the other AirTV product I expressed interest in above. And it does not work with TiVo products at this time(!), just Sling and the major streaming services.

That is sad. But so we don't get off-topic here, the thread for the new TiVo dongle is here: https://www.tivocommunity.com/comm...


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Tablo DVRs is Launching a Premium Service & Bringing Commercial Skipping to Mobile Devices - Cord Cutters News


----------



## NashGuy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Based on comments under the CordCutters News article, the new TiVo Stream 4K is a rebadged AirTV Mini based on Android TV.
> 
> It does not seem to include the OTA features of the other AirTV product I expressed interest in above. And it does not work with TiVo products at this time(!), just Sling and the major streaming services.
> 
> That is sad. But so we don't get off-topic here, the thread for the new TiVo dongle is here: https://www.tivocommunity.com/comm...


Right. But just to clarify, the AirTV Mini (which is the same hardware as the new TiVo Stream 4K, except for the remote) does not have OTA capabilities on its own. It needs the separate AirTV 2 box, which pulls in OTA TV from an antenna and then streams it around your home network for integration inside the UI on the AirTV Mini as well as the Sling app on other devices.

It would be very cool if TiVo allowed their new Stream 4K dongle to work with existing HDHomeRun OTA tuners in a similar way. Although if the Stream 4K sells decently, I could easily see TiVo putting out their own network tuner to which one could attach a hard drive (i.e. their own TiVo-branded version of the AirTV 2), thereby offering a headless network server for live and recorded OTA TV to be fed into your Stream 4K dongles around the house.


----------



## NashGuy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Tablo DVRs is Launching a Premium Service & Bringing Commercial Skipping to Mobile Devices - Cord Cutters News


So Tablo's relatively new ad skipping feature will be removed from their standard DVR service and cost an extra $2/mo. But they're improving it by extending the feature to mobile devices too, not just TV-connected devices. I guess that's better than forcing a price increase across the board on everyone.


----------



## dadrepus

NashGuy said:


> It would be very cool if TiVo allowed their new Stream 4K dongle to work with existing HDHomeRun OTA tuners in a similar way. Although if the Stream 4K sells decently, I could easily see TiVo putting out their own network tuner to which one could attach a hard drive (i.e. their own TiVo-branded version of the AirTV 2), thereby offering a headless network server for live and recorded OTA TV to be fed into your Stream 4K dongles around the house.


I'm pretty sure this is already done, as Plex is using, not only the Rovi guide service, but the HDHR tuners. They could just rebrand a HDHR tuner kinda like what they are doing with the new stream. Glue on sticker anyone?


----------



## NashGuy

dadrepus said:


> I'm pretty sure this is already done, as Plex is using, not only the Rovi guide service, but the HDHR tuners. They could just rebrand a HDHR tuner kinda like what they are doing with the new stream. Glue on sticker anyone?


Heh. Well, I think if you use Google's native (free) Live Channels app for Android TV on this new TiVo Stream 4K, it will automatically find and display the live channel streams from an HDHomeRun tuner on the same network (using the DLNA standard). But for all we know, TiVo might be blocking such functionality inside their own TiVo UI live channel grid (or simply not enabling DLNA discovery). Will be interesting to see...


----------



## Bigg

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Based on comments under the CordCutters News article, the new TiVo Stream 4K is a rebadged AirTV Mini based on Android TV.
> 
> It does not seem to include the OTA features of the other AirTV product I expressed interest in above. And it does not work with TiVo products at this time(!), just Sling and the major streaming services.


So it's a "TiVo" that's not a TiVo? 

EDIT: This thing appears to be an MVPD play for replacing an MVPD's own service with an OTT service and bundling with broadband.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Bigg said:


> So it's a "TiVo" that's not a TiVo?


Boggles the mind, doesn't it?


Bigg said:


> EDIT: This thing appears to be an MVPD play for replacing an MVPD's own service with an OTT service and bundling with broadband.


I see it as a platform for TiVo+, a partnership with a vMVPD (Sling), and content aggregation (all streaming services). With no DVR, OTA, or cable. This is a TiVo?


----------



## NashGuy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Boggles the mind, doesn't it?
> 
> I see it as a platform for TiVo+, a partnership with a vMVPD (Sling), and content aggregation (all streaming services). With no DVR, OTA, or cable. This is a TiVo?


This is TiVo realizing that if it's going to be relevant in the 2020s, it has to ditch the baggage of TV 2.0 (the era of cable TV and DVR) and get on board with TV 3.0 (streaming TV).


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

NashGuy said:


> This is TiVo realizing that if it's going to be relevant in the 2020s, it has to ditch the baggage of TV 2.0 (the era of cable TV and DVR) and get on board with TV 3.0 (streaming TV).


Amazing they realized that at least five years after everyone else did. It's been so long since Amazon first launched Fire TV devices, Amazon has since had time to move into the OTA DVR space and threaten TiVo there. Again, boggles the mind. And TiVo is launching this without an app that brings their installed base back to the future with them. I am in fact beyond boggled.


----------



## NashGuy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Amazing they realized that at least five years after everyone else did. It's been so long since Amazon first launched Fire TV devices, Amazon has since had time to move into the OTA DVR space and threaten TiVo there. Again, boggles the mind. And TiVo is launching this without an app that brings their installed base back to the future with them. I am in fact beyond boggled.


Understanding the Innovator's Dilemma


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> This is TiVo realizing that if it's going to be relevant in the 2020s, it has to ditch the baggage of TV 2.0 (the era of cable TV and DVR) and get on board with TV 3.0 (streaming TV).


They're 5+ years behind at this point. Unfortunately, whether in their control or outside of it, they have never been terribly successful in getting MVPD partners. If MVPDs had done a legitimate job of picking the best DVR platform (TiVo), then virtually every cable and satellite household in the US today would have a TiVo. I suspect, however, that their growth was always limited by the boneheadedness and constant need to re-invent the wheel that the MVPDs exhibit. Ultimately, however, content is driving cord cutting, and content will be the downfall of the traditional MVPDs.

I think this is targeted at the small MVPD partners that they do have.

I don't think TiVo stood a chance with streaming devices, they can't move fast enough in this market. When they were shipping DVRs that got guide data updates via phone lines, fine, but today, they can't iterate and add features quickly enough to compete.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> They're 5+ years behind at this point. Unfortunately, whether in their control or outside of it, they have never been terribly successful in getting MVPD partners. If MVPDs had done a legitimate job of picking the best DVR platform (TiVo), then virtually every cable and satellite household in the US today would have a TiVo. I suspect, however, that their growth was always limited by the boneheadedness and constant need to re-invent the wheel that the MVPDs exhibit. Ultimately, however, content is driving cord cutting, and content will be the downfall of the traditional MVPDs.
> 
> I think this is targeted at the small MVPD partners that they do have.
> 
> I don't think TiVo stood a chance with streaming devices, they can't move fast enough in this market. When they were shipping DVRs that got guide data updates via phone lines, fine, but today, they can't iterate and add features quickly enough to compete.


I'm not going to necessarily argue with any of that. I just think that, at this point, TiVo is a company without any great options. They're trying to re-position themselves for the streaming future by embracing apps and AVOD. Is it too little, too late? Probably. But I really don't know what else they should do at this point, do you?


----------



## mdavej

What is needed is a Tivo box that can integrate streaming. What we got was a streaming box with no Tivo or local DVR capabilities whatsoever, just a streaming guide with a Tivo skin which everybody hates anyway since it's the same as Hydra. Their biggest selling point is that it runs Tivo+, which 99% of us can agree is garbage. The Tivo style remote doesn't do much for me. I can buy a far more powerful peanut shaped universal like the OARUSB04G.

If this is just a first step, with the ultimate goal of having the same capabilities as a Mini, then they're on the right path. But if this is the best they can do, it's nowhere near enough. I can do far more with other boxes that already exist (Nvidia Shield, for example).


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> I'm not going to necessarily argue with any of that. I just think that, at this point, TiVo is a company without any great options. They're trying to re-position themselves for the streaming future by embracing apps and AVOD. Is it too little, too late? Probably. But I really don't know what else they should do at this point, do you?


That's a good point, and their only other real option is to market OTA DVRs, which is a limited market. Even if they could expand the market, it's still small.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> I think this is targeted at the small MVPD partners that they do have.


I think the primary market for the TiVo Stream 4K is retail, although they did say that it would be offered to MVPDs too. I don't know if it would be intended for use with managed IPTV services, as TiVo already has other Android TV and Linux-based hardware options for that in their "Next Gen Platform". I guess the pitch to smaller MSOs for this thing is to have a cheap turnkey option along the lines of Comcast's Flex to offer their standalone broadband subs. I assume Google, TiVo and perhaps the MSO all get some sort of cut for new subscription sign-ups on this device.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

I'm willing to bet the primary purpose this still-unfinished product was to simply be fully in the streaming space in time for CES, to meet the expectations of the new owners.

All potential buyers and investors certainly asked about streaming. RiVo had to say they planned to be intentionally moving beyond DVRs and into that growing space, and they had to have that ticket punched as soon as possible.

That's why this product is disappointing and confusing from the customer perspective, especially for the installed base. They didn't do it for us, or even for immediate new sales. They did it for _The _sale. The sale of the company.


----------



## NashGuy

mdavej said:


> What is needed is a Tivo box that can integrate streaming. What we got was a streaming box with no Tivo or local DVR capabilities whatsoever, just a streaming guide with a Tivo skin which everybody hates anyway since it's the same as Hydra. Their biggest selling point is that it runs Tivo+, which 99% of us can agree is garbage. The Tivo style remote doesn't do much for me. I can buy a far more powerful peanut shaped universal like the OARUSB04G.
> 
> If this is just a first step, with the ultimate goal of having the same capabilities as a Mini, then they're on the right path. But if this is the best they can do, it's nowhere near enough. I can do far more with other boxes that already exist (Nvidia Shield, for example).


Well, I'd agree that it's not mainly for the majority of folks who frequent this forum, i.e. TiVo DVR owners. I'm not sure if it's even all that important in the grand scheme of things whether this device ever gains Mini capabilities because the additional sales it would net from that feature wouldn't be enough to save it from otherwise being a failure. This device will have to succeed as a high-value, reasonably priced streaming device, pure and simple. This is essentially just an Android TV streamer but one that will potentially be saved from also-ran status (like Xiaomi's Mi Box) by the TiVo branding, UI and remote. We'll see. (They're going to need decent distribution and advertising for this thing if it's to succeed.)

Remains to be seen how good a job this device does in integrating streaming content from various sources but I'd say from the screenshots alone that it does a better job than either the Roku or Fire TV and possibly even better than the Apple TV (which has been the best so far, IMO).

As far as core streaming functionality, this device should do everything that the Nvidia Shield TV does since they both run Android TV. But in addition, this device also has the TiVo UI/app and also supports Dolby Vision HDR. (Yes, I realize that some models of the Shield TV -- which cost 3X as much as this device -- let you run a Plex server on it or attach USB tuners and/or storage.)


----------



## randian

Pokemon_Dad said:


> They didn't do it for us, or even for immediate new sales. They did it for _The _sale. The sale of the company.


To whom? While their patents were still good they rested on their laurels and squandered their market lead. What's left to sell?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

randian said:


> To whom? While their patents were still good they rested on their laurels and squandered their market lead. What's left to sell?


TiVo to Merge With Entertainment-Tech Firm Xperi in $3 Billion Deal

TCF discussion: Xperi to merge with TiVo


----------



## Charles R

If you look at it without tunnel vision... virtually any product (they could introduce) which would be popular here would have virtually no interest to mainstream users. The reverse is also true... so the more they "piss" us off and more likely it might actually be a good product.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Charles R said:


> If you look at it without tunnel vision... virtually any product (they could introduce) which would be popular here would have virtually no interest to mainstream users. The reverse is also true... so the more they "piss" us off and more likely it might actually be a good product.


I'm not P.O.'ed much, but I sure am disappointed. I have Channels DVR and in many ways it's better than TiVo DVRs. I have a Fire TV Stick 4K and in all ways it's better than a TiVo Stream 4K. That disappoints me in niche and mainstream markets right there, and to top it off they didn't include an app on the Stream 4K that would connect the two. All disappointing.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Pokemon_Dad said:


> I'm not P.O.'ed much, but I sure am disappointed. I have Channels DVR and in many ways it's better than TiVo DVRs. I have a Fire TV Stick 4K and in all ways it's better than a TiVo Stream 4K. That disappoints me in niche and mainstream markets right there, and to top it off they didn't include an app on the Stream 4K that would connect the two. All disappointing.


Sounds like the Tivo Stream 4K is actually an Android TV stick with some kind of new Tivo app that does the Sling guide?

It's almost like the actual way to connect to a Tivo DVR with the new Tivo Stick would require them to have a separate app just for that on the stick.

That's why I think the functionality is missing. They couldn't figure out how to combine the two apps and had to leave out access back to Tivo DVRs.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

spiderpumpkin said:


> Sounds like the Tivo Stream 4K is actually an Android TV stick with some kind of new Tivo app that does the Sling guide?
> 
> It's almost like the actual way to connect to a Tivo DVR with the new Tivo Stick would require them to have a separate app just for that on the stick.
> 
> That's why I think the functionality is missing. They couldn't figure out how to combine the two apps and had to leave out access back to Tivo DVRs.


Yes, it's an OEM Android TV dongle that they didn't design or make, licensed from the same source as an identical AirTV product. And yes connecting to the DVRs would require a new app, but at last year's CES they demonstrated exactly that app for Android TV, Apple TV, Roku, and Fire TV, saying they would release them sometime in 2019.

TiVo_Ted says the Apple and Roku apps are on hold, but maybe we'll still see an Android TV app, and then maybe that could be ported to Fire TV. Yet if they were thinking at all about bringing their installed base along into this new era, they would have at least officially pre-announced the already-announced Android app.

Which Ted did, kinda sorta, but that got his PR people mad at him (see the bottom of the second article), because their only audience for this launch is the merger managers at Xperi, and nobody else. I'm willing to bet every potential investor or buyer during last year's discussions asked about entering the pure streaming space.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Charles R said:


> If you look at it without tunnel vision... virtually any product (they could introduce) which would be popular here would have virtually no interest to mainstream users. The reverse is also true... so the more they "piss" us off and more likely it might actually be a good product.


Wow, try not to look down on us slobs and recognize that there are things that Tivo can do that would appeal to both. Like maybe integrating Tivo DVR support with their new 4K stick so you could have content aggregation across old and new TV. Just like they should have done with OnePass. Sure no one else would care about Tivo support but they would care about content aggregation that works.

All of this assumes Tivo can pull it off, which is a very big if considering the epic fail that 1P became.


----------



## NashGuy

slowbiscuit said:


> All of this assumes Tivo can pull it off, which is a very big if considering the epic fail that 1P became.


Yeah, my concern is that the capabilities of the TiVo Stream 4K when it comes to surfacing and tracking content in the on-demand streaming apps (Netflix, Prime Video, etc.) is really just OnePass, nothing more or better. And if that's all it is, I don't see this device offering much beyond being a reasonably priced Android TV streamer with Dolby Vision and Atmos, which is actually a hole in the market that needed filling. (There are rumors, though, that Google plans to finally come out with their own "hero device" for the Android TV platform this year, e.g. a "Pixel Player," so that could blunt the potential sales for TiVo's device.)


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> I think the primary market for the TiVo Stream 4K is retail, although they did say that it would be offered to MVPDs too. I don't know if it would be intended for use with managed IPTV services, as TiVo already has other Android TV and Linux-based hardware options for that in their "Next Gen Platform". I guess the pitch to smaller MSOs for this thing is to have a cheap turnkey option along the lines of Comcast's Flex to offer their standalone broadband subs. I assume Google, TiVo and perhaps the MSO all get some sort of cut for new subscription sign-ups on this device.


If they are targeting retail, then they've got more serious problems than I thought. I'm a TiVo fan (I mean, I'm here after all), and I wouldn't buy that compared to my Roku or an Apple TV or Shield Pro.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, my concern is that the capabilities of the TiVo Stream 4K when it comes to surfacing and tracking content in the on-demand streaming apps (Netflix, Prime Video, etc.) is really just OnePass, nothing more or better. And if that's all it is, I don't see this device offering much beyond being a reasonably priced Android TV streamer with Dolby Vision and Atmos, which is actually a hole in the market that needed filling. (There are rumors, though, that Google plans to finally come out with their own "hero device" for the Android TV platform this year, e.g. a "Pixel Player," so that could blunt the potential sales for TiVo's device.)


NVidia has already been there, done that.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> NVidia has already been there, done that.


Yeah, for $150-200. There's just not much room in the market for streaming devices with that kind of price tag other than from Apple (and even the Apple TV lags well behind Roku and Fire TV in terms of market share).

IMO, if Google wants to see Android TV succeed in the US retail market (and I don't know that they really do), they need to put out their own device with a high-quality remote, 4K, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, system-wide native contrast/color space auto-switching (e.g. between HDR and SDR), AC wifi, a USB port (for external storage and/or ethernet adapter) and price it at $69, same as the Chromecast Ultra (which it would replace). Work with Amazon and Apple to ensure that it get their apps (along with all the other stuff that's already in the Google Play Store) and encourage all the main services to support their API for two-way content tracking in the universal Play Next watchlist that appears at the top of the home screen. Google's own Live Channels app already works with my HDHomeRun network tuner and actually even has basic free DVR capabilities built into it.

That's quite a laundry list of things I'd like to see but if Google comes through with something like that, I'd probably buy it and try it out in lieu of my Apple TV 4K.


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## tommiet

Zoltan says.... "TiVo will live on forever....."

Ad paid for by TE3 users.


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## RightHere

NashGuy said:


> IMO, if Google wants to see Android TV succeed in the US retail market (and I don't know that they really do), they need to put out their own device with a high-quality remote, 4K, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, system-wide native contrast/color space auto-switching (e.g. between HDR and SDR), AC wifi, a USB port (for external storage and/or ethernet adapter) and price it at $69, same as the Chromecast Ultra (which it would replace).


What's the closest thing on the market comparable to this? I'm guessing the price here is at least $25 too low. Even the Roku Ultra that doesn't have some of these features is $100.


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## Mikeguy

RightHere said:


> What's the closest thing on the market comparable to this? I'm guessing the price here is at least $25 too low. Even the Roku Ultra that doesn't have some of these features is $100.


There is nothing comparable on the market, as the TiVo device does not yet exist. And it's totally unknown, if it ever exists, what capabilities or performance level it will have.

E.g., a year ago at CES, TiVo "pre-announced" the TiVo Mini Wireless Adapter--it was announced to have a "direct connection" feature under which a TiVo Mini box would connect directly to its Bolt master box without needing to go through the consumer's regular home router, and at a top data transmission speed. A potential great performance boon. When the device finally issued out 2 months ago (months after the expected retail release date), the feature was missing, and the adapter seems no better (or worse) than the WiFi bridge solutions that consumers have been using with their Mini boxes for well over 5 years--albeit, with the TiVo device at up to twice the price of regular WiFi bridges (from mainstay router/WiFi connection device manufacturers).

Just sayin'.*

* Boy, including with current comments/characterizations/allusions made by TiVo about its TiVo DVR consumer base, Tivo seems to be burning bridges with its base--the base that pays TiVo monthly, annual, and Lifetime DVR subscription fees, and whose private information TiVo then takes to make even more money off of.


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## RightHere

Think you missed my point. It has nothing to do with Tivo. NashGuy referenced a particular config for an Android TV device. I was asking if there's any hardware on the market with specs anywhere near that, and what it costs.

Agree with you on Tivo burning all of the bridges though...


----------



## JoeKustra

Mikeguy said:


> E.g., a year ago at CES, TiVo "pre-announced" the TiVo Mini Wireless Adapter--it was announced to have a "direct connection" feature under which a TiVo Mini box would connect directly to its Bolt master box without needing to go through the consumer's regular home router, and at a top data transmission speed. A potential great performance boon. When the device finally issued out 2 months ago (months after the expected retail release date), the feature was missing, and the adapter seems no better (or worse) than the WiFi bridge solutions that consumers have been using with their Mini boxes for well over 5 years--albeit, with the TiVo device at up to twice the price of regular WiFi bridges (from mainstay router/WiFi connection device manufacturers).


My cable company now supplies the TiVo Experience (as they call it). The do not use the USB dongle for their Mini, they support eero (heavily).


----------



## chiguy50

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, my concern is that the capabilities of the TiVo Stream 4K when it comes to surfacing and tracking content in the on-demand streaming apps (Netflix, Prime Video, etc.) is really just OnePass, nothing more or better. And if that's all it is, I don't see this device offering much beyond being *a reasonably priced Android TV streamer with Dolby Vision and Atmos*, which is actually a hole in the market that needed filling. (There are rumors, though, that Google plans to finally come out with their own "hero device" for the Android TV platform this year, e.g. a "Pixel Player," so that could blunt the potential sales for TiVo's device.)





Bigg said:


> NVidia has already been there, done that.


There is no indication that I am aware of so far regarding which apps on the TiVo Stream 4K will support DV and/or Atmos. It's one thing to specify the capability of the device and quite another to have it work within a given streaming app.

To date, no streaming device does it all, not even my Nvidia Shield TV, although it probably comes closest--albeit at a premium price.


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## foghorn2

Could careless about atmos or DV or HDR for the matter. All over hyped tech.


----------



## NashGuy

RightHere said:


> What's the closest thing on the market comparable to this? I'm guessing the price here is at least $25 too low. Even the Roku Ultra that doesn't have some of these features is $100.


Well, it's possible that the TiVo Stream 4K will meet all of the specs I listed. We do know that it:


has a high-quality remote with voice input, TV power & volume, plenty of (too many?) buttons, etc. (although I'd like a backlight too)
supports 4K, Dolby Vision & Dolby Atmos
has a spare USB-C port
has the Amazon Prime Video app for Android TV (which generally supports 4K HDR for eligible devices)
carries a regular $69 price tag but will initially sell at a discounted $50 price

Here's what we (or at least I) don't know:


level of wi-fi -- but it likely does have fast 802.11 AC (i.e. WiFi 5) with MIMO given that the AirTV Mini, which has identical internals, claims that level its specifications.
system-wide automatic contrast and color space switching -- This has been a shortcoming of the Nvidia Shield TV (and, as far as I know, all Android TV streamers) for a long time. It didn't have a single system setting like the Apple TV 4K's "Match Dynamic Range" that would automatically switch the unit's video output between SDR and its associated color space and HDR and its wider color gamut based on the native format of the content title currently streaming. (I believe you had to manually switch settings back and forth and/or mess with settings in individual apps.) I *think* that issue finally got resolved (or partially resolved) when Nvidia issued a beta feature called "Match Content Color Space" last summer. Is that something that Google is now baking into Android TV itself? Or if not, is that a feature that TiVo will make sure they include in their Stream 4K?
Apple TV app -- will TiVo be able to get Apple to bless their device with the app that Apple uses to distribute their new Apple TV+ service? Who knows. But Apple did just confirm at CES that certain model Sony smart TVs (all of which now run Android TV) will get their app this year. Not sure why Apple would want to keep it from other high-profile Android TV devices given that they're letting $29 Rokus and Fire TVs have it.

As far as Google working with major apps to generally improve Android TV, by getting them to work with the Play Next watchlist that appears at the top of the Android TV home screen, well, that's up to them. I doubt TiVo has that kind of sway.

Just for comparison's sake, the closest that Android TV has come to my wish list in the US would be Xiaomi's Mi Box S. It's sold at Walmart and Amazon for $59. It has 4K and HDR10 but no Dolby Vision or Atmos. The remote is decent but not great. It finally got updated yesterday to Android TV 9.0 plus the Amazon Prime Video app. (Like Pixel phones, I would expect that a Google-made Android TV streamer would receive timely updates.)


----------



## NashGuy

chiguy50 said:


> There is no indication that I am aware of so far regarding which apps on the TiVo Stream 4K will support DV and/or Atmos. It's one thing to specific the capability of the device and quite another to have it work within a given streaming app.
> 
> To date, no streaming device does it all, not even my Nvidia Shield TV, although it probably comes closest--albeit at a premium price.


I think (but not I'm not certain) that if a service's Android TV app supports 4K or HDR10 or Dolby Vision or Dolby Atmos in general, then it will offer that feature on any specific Android TV device that has the hardware capabilities to support it.

I know that Netflix's Android TV app for the new Nvidia Shield TV supports 4K, Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos. Haven't for sure read about any other Android TV devices. But we know that Netflix has blessed the TiVo Stream 4K with their app (and the device even has a Netflix shortcut button) and we know the hardware can support all those formats.

I've read that the Prime Video app on the Mi Box supports 4K and HDR10, so I tend to think that will be the case across all Android TV devices capable of delivering those features.

Hulu only offers a limited amount of 4K content and doesn't support any form of HDR (yet). And they only support 4K on a limited set of devices, including the Chromecast Ultra but no Android TV devices. And they haven't made any mention of future plans to offer 4K in their Android TV app either. We'll see.

Disney+ offers 4K HDR in their Android TV app for the Nvidia Shield and Sony smart TVs. Don't know for sure about any other Android TV devices.

Not sure about YouTube, which instead of using HEVC for 4K HDR insists on using the VP9 codec. But I have read that the AirTV Mini supports that codec and can stream 4K content from YouTube, so I would think that the TiVo Stream 4K can too. As far as HDR from YouTube, that's very rare. Not sure if that's only down to the fact that it requires an updated version of VP9 (i.e. VP9 Profile 2) or because Google makes exclusive deals on which devices can get an HDR-capable version of the app or what.


----------



## Aero 1

foghorn2 said:


> Could careless about atmos or DV or HDR for the matter. All over hyped tech.


----------



## OrangeCrush

RightHere said:


> What's the closest thing on the market comparable to this? I'm guessing the price here is at least $25 too low. Even the Roku Ultra that doesn't have some of these features is $100.


The FireStick 4k has all of these features, I believe. Menu price is $50, but it is often available for $25.


----------



## foghorn2

Aero 1 said:


>


Hows your 3D TV technology working out? So much better right?


----------



## aaronwt

foghorn2 said:


> Could careless about atmos or DV or HDR for the matter. All over hyped tech.


Hardly. I've been watching HDR content since 2015 and listening to Atmos content since 2017. In my use it is nowhere near overhyped. Since HDR makes a difference with any resolution content. And Dolby Atmos audio has also made a huge difference for me going from a 9.1 setup to a 5.1.2 setup.


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## foghorn2

HDR is nonscence. Watch a 70's film transfered well and compare it to a modern HDR release, its sucks big time! Esp with the goofy modern colors they enhance with stupid lens flares. So Sickening!

Same goes for all this Dolby Atmos crap.

BTW, hows all the 3D Tv sets and disks doing now days? So much better, right!


----------



## Narkul

foghorn2 said:


> HDR is nonscence. Watch a 70's film transfered well and compare it to a modern HDR release, its sucks big time! Esp with the goofy modern colors they enhance with stupid lens flares. So Sickening!
> 
> Same goes for all this Dolby Atmos crap.
> 
> BTW, hows all the 3D Tv sets and disks doing now days? So much better, right!


If you love atmospheric sound, Atmos's true 3 dimensional sound is probably a revelation and far superior to the old 5.1 channel sysem. Personally I took my 5.1 system apart and just kept the front speakers for a traditional stereo sound as I kind of stopped watching movies that would benefit, but I might consider upgrading to an affordable Atmos system that doesn't compromise quality too much.

3D was a step backwards, and anyone that truly appreciated good cinematography was mortified at the hit cinematography took just to make the 3D look effective. The failure of 3D wasn't unexpected since it's been introduced in movie theaters and failed more than once over the years

4K is a large step forward, and HDR has potential to make much more lifelike imagery if done correctly and is far more immersive than headache inducing 3D.


----------



## trip1eX

foghorn2 said:


> Could careless about atmos or DV or HDR for the matter. All over hyped tech.


lol. so true.


----------



## aaronwt

foghorn2 said:


> HDR is nonscence. Watch a 70's film transfered well and compare it to a modern HDR release, its sucks big time! Esp with the goofy modern colors they enhance with stupid lens flares. So Sickening!
> 
> Same goes for all this Dolby Atmos crap.
> 
> BTW, hows all the 3D Tv sets and disks doing now days? So much better, right!


You obviously have not watched much HDR content. Since HDR does not mean you need to have saturated colors or lens flares.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, for $150-200. There's just not much room in the market for streaming devices with that kind of price tag other than from Apple (and even the Apple TV lags well behind Roku and Fire TV in terms of market share).


True, although I see Android TV either as something built in or something for enthusiasts anyway.



aaronwt said:


> You obviously have not watched much HDR content. Since HDR does not mean you need to have saturated colors or lens flares.


I have found that most HDR content isn't impressive at all. Mindhunter and The Revenant are two exceptions, but generally, I don't find it to add too much to the experience, and I often can't tell the difference anyway. 4k is a much bigger deal, the crispness and clearness that I see from a 4k image is a significant upgrade over 1080p for the right kinds of content.


----------



## chiguy50

Bigg said:


> I have found that most HDR content isn't impressive at all. Mindhunter and The Revenant are two exceptions, but generally, I don't find it to add too much to the experience, and I often can't tell the difference anyway. 4k is a much bigger deal, the crispness and clearness that I see from a 4k image is a significant upgrade over 1080p for the right kinds of content.


Unless you have a very large display (not less than 75") and/or sit very close to it, 4K does not represent anywhere near as significant a visual improvement over 2K as does HDR over SDR. Any well crafted content in 2K/HDR will knock the socks off the same image in 4K/SDR. However, the results you get will depend not least of all on the quality of the video processor in your display. On a lower-end TV you can not expect to appreciate high-end visuals.


----------



## ncted

I wish they had gone with 1080p HDR before UHD. UHD might have never taken off if they did. UHD barely looks any better, but HDR *can* look much better if done right.


----------



## foghorn2

8k with HDR 3D MAX and Dolby Universe audio will be better


----------



## chiguy50

ncted said:


> I wish they had gone with 1080p HDR before UHD. UHD might have never taken off if they did. UHD barely looks any better, but HDR *can* look much better if done right.


It all starts with the authoring--whether we are talking video or audio. If the content creators do not take full advantage of the tools at their disposal, for whatever reason (and it could be due to artistic intent), then the results will not reflect the true capabilities of the underlying technology.

But, without question, the biggest advances in picture quality are not represented by the higher pixel count of UHD but rather high dynamic range (HDR) and wide color gamut (WCG). These last two attributes are what provide the added richness and depth to the picture.


----------



## foghorn2

chiguy50 said:


> It all starts with the authoring--whether we are talking video or audio. If the content creators do not take full advantage of the tools at their disposal, for whatever reason (and it could be due to artistic intent), then the results will not reflect the true capabilities of the underlying technology.
> 
> But, without question, the biggest advances in picture quality are not represented by the higher pixel count of UHD but rather high dynamic range (HDR) and wide color gamut (WCG). These last two attributes are what provide the added richness and depth to the picture.


Not really, Ive seen stuff thats not HDR and WCG thats blows it away.


----------



## trip1eX

chiguy50 said:


> It all starts with the authoring--whether we are talking video or audio. If the content creators do not take full advantage of the tools at their disposal, for whatever reason (and it could be due to artistic intent), then the results will not reflect the true capabilities of the underlying technology.


 That's one reason this stuff is overhyped. Content is always behind. I mean cable isn't even 4k right?

Another reason this stuff is overhyped because the brain gets used to whatever you have and then you're left with the content.

Plus a lot of today's tech "improvements" at their best are analogous to having $10 million in the bank vs $9 million.


----------



## Lurker1

chiguy50 said:


> It all starts with the authoring--whether we are talking video or audio. If the content creators do not take full advantage of the tools at their disposal, for whatever reason (and it could be due to artistic intent), then the results will not reflect the true capabilities of the underlying technology.


Have you yet seen any advertising in HDR? I would expect that commercials would be the first to exploit the full capabilities of HDR with dazzling colors, blinding highlights, etc., the same way they crank the sound up to maximum volume to get your attention.


----------



## chiguy50

foghorn2 said:


> Not really, Ive seen stuff thats not HDR and WCG thats *blows it away*.


If by "it" you mean any given content in 4K/HDR, then I would agree inasmuch as there are many very poorly authored titles in 4K/HDR while there is also some positively stunning artistic material on standard Blu-ray. For example, there's the monumental documentary _Samsara_, which is some of the most impressive eye candy I have ever seen. Of course, this is an exceptional title given that it was a very serious cinematic undertaking which was shot in 70mm, scanned at 8K, and mastered at 4K.

But there is no serious argument to be made that HD is the equal, let alone superior, to UHD/HDR in terms of technological capabilities.



trip1eX said:


> That's one reason this stuff is overhyped. Content is always behind. I mean cable isn't even 4k right?
> 
> Another reason this stuff is overhyped because the brain gets used to whatever you have and then you're left with the content.
> 
> Plus a lot of today's tech "improvements" at their best are analogous to having $10 million in the bank vs $9 million.


Yes, the improvements are undoubtedly incremental. And if you are not a serious videophile/audiophile you may not even perceive or appreciate the advancements. But I do not place myself in that category and yet I (and my even less demanding wife) feel the upgrades in (4K/HDR) video and (immersive) audio have made a sizeable difference in our viewing enjoyment.



Lurker1 said:


> Have you yet seen any advertising in HDR? I would expect that commercials would be the first to exploit the full capabilities of HDR with dazzling colors, blinding highlights, etc., the same way they crank the sound up to maximum volume to get your attention.


Perhaps this will come, but there are investments involved that may deter most advertisers at this juncture. Nonetheless, if and when 2K/HDR broadcast TV comes about, you will certainly see ads in that medium.


----------



## ej42137

Lurker1 said:


> Have you yet seen any advertising in HDR? I would expect that commercials would be the first to exploit the full capabilities of HDR with dazzling colors, blinding highlights, etc., the same way they crank the sound up to maximum volume to get your attention.


Advertising is not going to use HDR until broadcast and cable are commonly viewed with HDR. Until then, it would be a waste of effort and bandwidth with no return on investment because it wouldn't be seen by the target audience.


----------



## Bigg

chiguy50 said:


> Unless you have a very large display (not less than 75") and/or sit very close to it, 4K does not represent anywhere near as significant a visual improvement over 2K as does HDR over SDR. Any well crafted content in 2K/HDR will knock the socks off the same image in 4K/SDR. However, the results you get will depend not least of all on the quality of the video processor in your display. On a lower-end TV you can not expect to appreciate high-end visuals.


I disagree. I'm about 9-10' from my 65" TV, which is really too far for that sized screen, and I can tell a significant difference in clarity and sharpness going to 4k. I can see a little bit of difference with HDR, but it just doesn't have the same "wow" factor.



ej42137 said:


> Advertising is not going to use HDR until broadcast and cable are commonly viewed with HDR. Until then, it would be a waste of effort and bandwidth with no return on investment because it wouldn't be seen by the target audience.


Unless there are more ad-supported streaming services supporting 4K HDR.


----------



## chiguy50

Bigg said:


> I disagree. I'm about 9-10' from my 65" TV, which is really too far for that sized screen, and I can tell a significant difference in clarity and sharpness going to 4k. I can see a little bit of difference with HDR, but it just doesn't have the same "wow" factor.


That may be your subjective experience, but I would say that it is not indicative of the medium's technological characteristics.

Of course, there are many variables in play that will influence the nature of the perceived image. Aside from your visual acuity and personal preferences, there is the quality of the video processor, the type of display and how well (if at all) it has been calibrated, which picture mode has been selected as well as other settings in the display that impact on the video reproduction, not to mention the content itself and how it is being conveyed.


----------



## WVZR1

chiguy50 said:


> That may be your subjective experience, but I would say that it is not indicative of the medium's technological characteristics.
> 
> Of course, there are many variables in play that will influence the nature of the perceived image. Aside from your visual acuity and personal preferences, there is the quality of the video processor, the type of display and how well (if at all) it has been calibrated, which picture mode has been selected as well as other settings in the display that impact on the video reproduction, not to mention the content itself and how it is being conveyed.


All of this is very true!! VERY VERY TRUE!!


----------



## chiguy50

WVZR1 said:


> All of this is very true!! VERY VERY TRUE!!


Well, in fairness to Bigg's point of view, there is a large degree of subjective interpretation involved. He sees what he sees and we can not dispute that unless we are sitting alongside him to assess his judgment.

However, the science itself is objectively assessable, such as the pixel density between 2K and 4K or the variance in luminosity between an image in SDR and that same image in HDR.

We've all probably seen one or another version of this viewing chart. Its generalized optimal viewing range shows that an upgrade from 2K to 4K will not make a worthwhile difference if one is sitting at a 9" to 10" distance from a 65" display.

I myself take these charts with a grain of salt, but they do represent typical outcomes.


----------



## Bigg

chiguy50 said:


> That may be your subjective experience, but I would say that it is not indicative of the medium's technological characteristics.


I would completely disagree. In terms of subjective experience, it depends on what you value. In terms of what you can discern objectively, 4k is much easier to see the impact it makes than HDR. I often have to put my TV's menu on to see if HDR is on (if it is it will be fully lit up blindingly bright), whereas 4k is usually obvious if it was mastered in good quality.



> Of course, there are many variables in play that will influence the nature of the perceived image. Aside from your visual acuity and personal preferences, there is the quality of the video processor, the type of display and how well (if at all) it has been calibrated, which picture mode has been selected as well as other settings in the display that impact on the video reproduction, not to mention the content itself and how it is being conveyed.


True. My display is a 2015 model, but it is properly calibrated per AVSForum settings. Maybe I'd have different feelings on HDR if I had a 2019 LG OLED. I also don't really care about OLED, and if I had a large budget for TV toys, I'd get a Sony 85X950G.



chiguy50 said:


> We've all probably seen one or another version of this viewing chart. Its generalized optimal viewing range shows that an upgrade from 2K to 4K will not make a worthwhile difference if one is sitting at a 9" to 10" distance from a 65" display.
> 
> I myself take these charts with a grain of salt, but they do represent typical outcomes.


I think that chart is fairly accurate. It's a bit misleading though, as it shows a lot of screen/distance combinations that are WAY out of standard. Depending on which distance standard you use, you will typically get a proper viewing distance of about 6' to 9' for a 65" screen, which puts you in the upper part of the Ultra HD band. In fact, if you follow the edge of the Ultra HD/1080p dividing line, that's roughly the maximum distance that you should be seated from a display of varying sizes.

What you begin to notice is that a lot of people have woefully inadequate screen sizes for the way their rooms are set up. Of course you're not going to be able to see 4k if you're watching a 55" TV from 15' away. Looking at the numbers, you also see that it's impractical to get a flat panel TV if you're sitting more than about 13' away from an 85" screen, as you quickly get into front projection territory.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Bigg said:


> I disagree. I'm about 9-10' from my 65" TV, which is really too far for that sized screen, and I can tell a significant difference in clarity and sharpness going to 4k. I can see a little bit of difference with HDR, but it just doesn't have the same "wow" factor.


I'd say it has more to do with the extra bandwidth and higher bitrate than the actual resolution, especially if you're comparing video coming from a streaming service. 4K streams simply get sent at a higher bitrate. Compare a 1080p Blu-Ray to a 4k Blu-Ray and I think the difference would be much less obvious.

HDR's a bit more nuanced. When it matters, the difference is big. But it doesn't always matter, it isn't always done right on the production side, and it isn't always done right on the TV/technology side. There are many many TVs, especially bargain priced ones that "support HDR" in that they can decode an HDR signal, but the screen itself doesn't do much to display HDR faithfully.


----------



## Bigg

OrangeCrush said:


> I'd say it has more to do with the extra bandwidth and higher bitrate than the actual resolution, especially if you're comparing video coming from a streaming service. 4K streams simply get sent at a higher bitrate. Compare a 1080p Blu-Ray to a 4k Blu-Ray and I think the difference would be much less obvious.


I can see a crispness and a sharpness in Netflix 4k that I can't see on any 1080p source, even Blu-Ray that uses a higher bitrate than the streamed 4k.



> HDR's a bit more nuanced. When it matters, the difference is big. But it doesn't always matter, it isn't always done right on the production side, and it isn't always done right on the TV/technology side. There are many many TVs, especially bargain priced ones that "support HDR" in that they can decode an HDR signal, but the screen itself doesn't do much to display HDR faithfully.


I've seen a couple of shows/movies where it was put to good use, but otherwise it doesn't seem to change much for the overall experience. Maybe I'd need a newer TV to see the difference, but I just don't care that much like I did with 4k. I love 4k, but I'm disappointed at the lack of 4k content to this day. I watch some 4k from Netflix, some from UHD Blu-Ray, and some from YouTube, but even then, only a small fraction of what I watch overall is available in 4k. Discs are a small portion of my overall viewing, and that's the only source where a majority of the content in available in 4k.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Bigg said:


> but even then, only a small fraction of what I watch overall is available in 4k. Discs are a small portion of my overall viewing, and that's the only source where a majority of the content in available in 4k.


It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. The content won't get made in 4k/HDR until the hardware that supports it is more widespread, and there's no good reason to run out and buy new stuff when the content isn't there to make use of it. I don't even pay the extra couple of bucks for Netflix 4K. Not worth it to me, I've only got one TV that'll benefit at all from it and there wasn't that much available in UHD on Netflix in the first place.

For me, I'm only replacing what breaks but anything new is going to be 4k/HDR unless it's something small, and I think that's where most consumers are at this point.


----------



## chiguy50

Bigg said:


> My display is a 2015 model, but it is properly calibrated per AVSForum settings. Maybe I'd have different feelings on HDR if I had a 2019 LG OLED. I also don't really care about OLED, and if I had a large budget for TV toys, I'd get a Sony 85X950G.


There's your issue right there--you're like the proverbial blind man trying to describe an elephant.

You have an older (presumably NOT flagship) display and it hasn't been properly calibrated to boot. In point of fact, you can not transfer anyone else's settings to your TV with the assumption that it will translate properly. Firstly, every set (and every panel) is unique and, secondly, your viewing environment is necessarily going to differ in terms of ambient lighting, backlighting (if any), viewing habits, eyesight, viewing distance, program material, ad nauseam. You don't have to spring for a professional calibration, but at the least you should use a professionally mastered calibration disk such as the Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark or UHD HDR Benchmark discs to adjust your picture settings.

Until you have garnered the proper viewing experience, your conclusions will be based on insufficient empirical evidence. I'm not arguing that you will change your mind, but at least you will have a firm basis from which to judge.


----------



## chiguy50

OrangeCrush said:


> I'd say it has more to do with the extra bandwidth and higher bitrate than the actual resolution, especially if you're comparing video coming from a streaming service. 4K streams simply get sent at a higher bitrate. Compare a 1080p Blu-Ray to a 4k Blu-Ray and I think the difference would be much less obvious.
> 
> HDR's a bit more nuanced. When it matters, the difference is big. But it doesn't always matter, it isn't always done right on the production side, and it isn't always done right on the TV/technology side. There are many many TVs, especially bargain priced ones that "support HDR" in that they can decode an HDR signal, but the screen itself doesn't do much to display HDR faithfully.


I agree with all of the above. In fact, my judgments are based exclusively on comparisons between the video output from Blu-Ray discs; every other medium--whether streaming, cable, satellite or other--is far too compromised by the transmission method to allow for an accurate assessment of the encode itself.

And we haven't even mentioned the qualitative differences between native 4K and upscaled 2K or other authoring considerations that will impact on the PQ.


----------



## Bigg

OrangeCrush said:


> It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. The content won't get made in 4k/HDR until the hardware that supports it is more widespread, and there's no good reason to run out and buy new stuff when the content isn't there to make use of it. I don't even pay the extra couple of bucks for Netflix 4K. Not worth it to me, I've only got one TV that'll benefit at all from it and there wasn't that much available in UHD on Netflix in the first place.
> 
> For me, I'm only replacing what breaks but anything new is going to be 4k/HDR unless it's something small, and I think that's where most consumers are at this point.


There are a LOT of 4k TVs out there, but I think most people who buy them will only watch stuff in 4k if they just happen to stream something and Netflix happens to send it to them in 4k. I just don't sense that the average consumer understands the benefits of 4k, in large part because many people are sitting away too far away from TVs that are too small.


----------



## chiguy50

Bigg said:


> There are a LOT of 4k TVs out there, but I think most people who buy them will only watch stuff in 4k if they just happen to stream something and Netflix happens to send it to them in 4k. I just don't sense that the average consumer understands the benefits of 4k, in large part because many people are sitting away too far away from TVs that are too small.


I think if we start to talk about what "most people" experience it will be a very different conversation. You and I are not typical in terms of our A/V backgrounds. That is why I persist in pushing back on your impressions of HDR. I think you just need to investigate it a bit further.


----------



## Bigg

chiguy50 said:


> There's your issue right there--you're like the proverbial blind man trying to describe an elephant.


Although it doesn't have the capabilities of the newer models, it is an HDR10 display, and I have seen the benefits of HDR on a couple of movies and one TV show (Mindhunter). I just don't find most content to gain anything from HDR.



> You have an older (presumably NOT flagship) display and it hasn't been properly calibrated to boot. In point of fact, you can not transfer anyone else's settings to your TV with the assumption that it will translate properly. Firstly, every set (and every panel) is unique and, secondly, your viewing environment is necessarily going to differ in terms of ambient lighting, backlighting (if any), viewing habits, eyesight, viewing distance, program material, ad nauseam. You don't have to spring for a professional calibration, but at the least you should use a professionally mastered calibration disk such as the Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark or UHD HDR Benchmark discs to adjust your picture settings.


I've found the AVSForum settings to be very good. I suppose I could get a calibration disc, but I haven't had the desire to go that far.



> Until you have garnered the proper viewing experience, your conclusions will be based on insufficient empirical evidence. I'm not arguing that you will change your mind, but at least you will have a firm basis from which to judge.


I don't think I'm ever going to change my mind on HDR. I just don't see the point of it, or the benefit of it outside of a few very, very specific use cases. Also, there is even less HDR content than 4k content. Outside of movies, it's a small subset of shows on Netflix, and not much of anything else.



chiguy50 said:


> I agree with all of the above. In fact, my judgments are based exclusively on comparisons between the video output from Blu-Ray discs; every other medium--whether streaming, cable, satellite or other--is far too compromised by the transmission method to allow for an accurate assessment of the encode itself.


That's an overly broad statement. Netflix's 4k encodes are stunning and you'd be really, really hard pressed to tell the difference between them and UHD BD. They are in no way equivalent to the complete mess that Comcast is pushing out with severe over-compression and bit starvation. There are a lot of degrees of quality in-between those two extremes, and most streaming sources do a mediocre job of encoding, but to cast such a wide net over streaming and cable/satellite just isn't accurate.


----------



## Bigg

chiguy50 said:


> I think if we start to talk about what "most people" experience it will be a very different conversation. You and I are not typical in terms of our A/V backgrounds. That is why I persist in pushing back on your impressions of HDR. I think you just need to investigate it a bit further.


My point is that there is plenty of 4k hardware out there, it's just a matter of whether people actually want 4k content, and I'm just not convinced that there's a huge demand out there.

I don't dislike HDR per se, I just don't think it really changes anything like 4k does. 4k is a huge and very noticeable jump up in quality, HDR is often hard to see any difference at all, even though with a very few pieces of content, the difference is pretty obvious (particularly with dark scenes or natural lighting).


----------



## Saturn

Well, Plex DVR is dead to me. After several months and getting an Amazon Fire stick to use it with 30sec skip, Plex let me down. I wanted to watch the Packers last game of the season while it was still recording and I couldn't find it. I could tell (via 'top' logged into my linux box) that it had recorded and was apparently processing commercials, but it didn't appear in my "TV Shows" list until sometime after it was done recording. Can't watch while recording? Non-starter for football games. Maybe Channels is next. I like plex (and I'll keep it - if they offer another lifetime deal I'll probably take it) but as of right now Plex just doesn't handle the live/recorded handoff well at all.

(I watched the game on my TiVo Mini, it worked fine, and I didn't even have to power-cycle my mini first (!) )


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

OK Channels DVR has passed Ludicrous Speed and gone to Plaid. But only if you're parked:

Watch Full Screen in your Tesla


----------



## Saturn

Does Channels have offline download on mobile apps? From what I can tell it has been on the roadmap for years but doesn't exist yet.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Saturn said:


> Does Channels have offline download on mobile apps? From what I can tell it has been on the roadmap for years but doesn't exist yet.


Not on Android. Not on any of them I think. Just remote streaming, like in the Tesla.

The full screen Tesla display worked OK and I logged into the service, but I did not stream anything from my own server. I may be paranoid, but I don't like to forward ports.


----------



## mschnebly

A comparison. Best live TV streaming services for cord-cutters in 2020


----------



## foghorn2

mschnebly said:


> A comparison. Best live TV streaming services for cord-cutters in 2020
> 
> View attachment 45867


Yep, Sling is the best.


----------



## saeba

foghorn2 said:


> Yep, Sling is the best.


Dependent on needs. Certainly wasn't for mine.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

I've been testing and using Channels DVR for 3 months now and it works great and will probably replace my Tivo someday. However, I find myself missing the trick play with 6 tuners that my Tivo Bolt Vox provides. 

I've mainly been watching Channels on another tv in the house that has a Tivo Mini, and used Channels more. I never really used the Tivo Mini much because a lot of times a live tv tuner wasn't available and trick play wasn't really an option. 

So, I ended up buying a second Tivo Bolt Vox 3TB to replace my Tivo Mini in that room, and will just use Channels DVR to record special things like long marathons, etc.


----------



## Bigg

foghorn2 said:


> Yep, Sling is the best.


They're missing a bunch of channels. YTTV had an incredibly targeted lineup at $40/mo, even when they added some junk and increased to $50/mo, it's still a really complete offering, I've heard great things about it from many people, and the VQ is supposed to be secondly only to DTVN, which is otherwise a lousy service.


----------



## wmcbrine

Saturn said:


> Does Channels have offline download on mobile apps? From what I can tell it has been on the roadmap for years but doesn't exist yet.


(Maybe repeating myself here...) I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for, but, you should know that Channels records its videos to plain unencrypted files in standard formats on your own disk. You really can do whatever you want with them.


----------



## foghorn2

Bigg said:


> They're missing a bunch of channels. YTTV had an incredibly targeted lineup at $40/mo, even when they added some junk and increased to $50/mo, it's still a really complete offering, I've heard great things about it from many people, and the VQ is supposed to be secondly only to DTVN, which is otherwise a lousy service.


Im glad its missing a lot of channels I dont want and the get the channels I want cheaper.


----------



## Saturn

wmcbrine said:


> (Maybe repeating myself here...) I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for, but, you should know that Channels records its videos to plain unencrypted files in standard formats on your own disk. You really can do whatever you want with them.


That's true, but not wife-friendly. And frankly I would rather not muck around with handbrake and VLC on my phone/tablet when I want to take a show with me either. I suppose I could save them to a place Plex would pick up and let it do the re-encoding/transfer to mobile, but that's still extra steps and a different UI to navigate to find the shows you want.


----------



## ncted

I tried Vue, Sling, DVTN, Phil, Hulu Live, and YTTV. YTTV had the best picture by far. I kept Sling as a way to get the few linear cable channels we want to augment our Recast DVR. PQ wasn't the best, but for the few things we watched, it was fine. Once I realized the Recast could not be counted on to actually record certain shows, I switched to YTTV to get locals. I understand DTVN might be better on the AT&T Android box, but that is a bit too much AT&T overhead for me to buy into. Also, I didn't like the "DVR" functionality and the pricing.


----------



## slowbiscuit

foghorn2 said:


> Im glad its missing a lot of channels I dont want and the get the channels I want cheaper.


Which of course means it's good for you, but not 'the best' for everyone.


----------



## Puppy76

It strikes me as seriously messed up that today I can literally buy a Fire TV stick 4K + 4 tuner recast for LESS than the price of just a Tivo mini, and without a $15/month fee. 

don’t know if I could stand a recast though, nor do I know how secure the newer fire tv stuff is. And I copy shows off my Tivo all the time... but still...


----------



## Bigg

foghorn2 said:


> Im glad its missing a lot of channels I dont want and the get the channels I want cheaper.


It works better for some areas than others. It doesn't work here, since it's missing several key channels here.


----------



## ncted

Puppy76 said:


> It strikes me as seriously messed up that today I can literally buy a Fire TV stick 4K + 4 tuner recast for LESS than the price of just a Tivo mini, and without a $15/month fee.
> 
> don't know if I could stand a recast though, nor do I know how secure the newer fire tv stuff is. And I copy shows off my Tivo all the time... but still...


The Recast/Firestick experience works pretty well, but it does take some getting used to. The DVR and live TV functions are integrated into the UI fairly well, but they are not as prominent as with traditional DVRs that had streaming added on. Given Amazon's liberal return policy, you could always try it out for yourself and see.


----------



## mdavej

Puppy76 said:


> It strikes me as seriously messed up that today I can literally buy a Fire TV stick 4K + 4 tuner recast for LESS than the price of just a Tivo mini, and without a $15/month fee.
> 
> don't know if I could stand a recast though, nor do I know how secure the newer fire tv stuff is. And I copy shows off my Tivo all the time... but still...


Recast is not a good fit for people who make copies of their recordings. While the files are open, the procedure to copy them is very complex and requires a screwdriver every time you want to copy something. Apparently "Channels DVR" recordings are much easier to copy, but it has a monthly fee like Tivo. So you really haven't gained anything except the ability to record streams from TVE apps.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

mdavej said:


> Recast is not a good fit for people who make copies of their recordings. While the files are open, the procedure to copy them is very complex and requires a screwdriver every time you want to copy something. Apparently "Channels DVR" recordings are much easier to copy, but it has a monthly fee like Tivo. So you really haven't gained anything except the ability to record streams from TVE apps.


Channels DVR price is worth it. The developers are always working on improving the software and communicate very well with users.


----------



## mdavej

spiderpumpkin said:


> Channels DVR price is worth it. The developers are always working on improving the software and communicate very well with users.


Yeah, I'm very impressed with Channels. No doubt it's worth every penny. I just have no desire to record streams or pay ANY fees at all. So Recast is enough for me. Not to mention the simplicity of having one box versus all the individual parts I'd need for Channels. Been there, done that 10 years ago.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Recently I almost dropped TiVo completely for Channels DVR. The hard drive in our Roamio Pro started to die, and I seriously considered retiring the whole box. But I eventually put in a new drive.

TE3 is still a more familiar interface, like an old friend. And we'd rather run the two systems in parallel for a while longer, as you never know which one is going to have a problem. If it's not the lame TiVo/Rovi EPG, it's a bug in the still-new Channels TVE beta, or something.

I have to say though, Channels has been rock-solid since I replaced TVE with an HDHR Prime. The Prime is sporting the CableCARD that used to be in our buggy old Bolt. I'm also still using an HDHR Quatro for OTA, but cable is the best source of news and talk for us.


----------



## vaquero

I went to the Channels website and it was a little confusing to me. I couldn't see where they were selling any hardware. I did notice in their example setup they used an HDHomerun. So, how does the OTA signal get into the Channels app so that it can be paused, etc.? And, how do they make money if you don't pay extra for the DVR feature?

Disclaimer: Sometimes I don't see what is clearly in front of me.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

vaquero said:


> I went to the Channels website and it was a little confusing to me. I couldn't see where they were selling any hardware. I did notice in their example setup they used an HDHomerun. So, how does the OTA signal get into the Channels app so that it can be paused, etc.? And, how do they make money if you don't pay extra for the DVR feature?
> 
> Disclaimer: Sometimes I don't see what is clearly in front of me.


Your confusion is understandable. They develop software only. That software depends on hardware made by others. They support only HD HomeRun tuners, but also recently launched beta support of TV Everywhere. They list a range of suggested server hardware on their site, and they support four client app platforms plus web browsers. To network it all together, they suggest wired Ethernet.

They make money off the $8 monthly or $80 annual subscription, without which you wouldn't have the guide that makes DVR scheduling possible. But they also offer another app for live TV only which sells for a one time $25 per client.

It's not at all a turnkey consumer electronics box like a TiVo or a Recast, but only some users get extremely technical and experimental with it, while for others it never gets beyond a relatively basic level of tech. Makes sense?


----------



## vaquero

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Your confusion is understandable. They develop software only. That software depends on hardware made by others. They support only HD HomeRun tuners, but also recently launched beta support of TV Everywhere. They list a range of suggested server hardware on their site, and they support four client platforms. To network it all together, they suggest wired Ethernet.
> 
> It's not at all a turnkey consumer electronics box like a TiVo or a Recast, but only some users get extremely technical and experimental with it, while for others it never gets beyond a relatively basic level of tech. Makes sense?


Good explanation. Thanks.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

vaquero said:


> Good explanation. Thanks.


Glad that helped. I realized I hadn't answered your question about how they make money, so added a paragraph on that about the same time you answered. It's clearly not a big bucks operation, but there are only three developers and they are very responsive.


----------



## NashGuy

mschnebly said:


> A comparison. Best live TV streaming services for cord-cutters in 2020
> 
> View attachment 45867


This table is outdated for AT&T TV Now. As of a week or so ago, their flagship Plus and Max packages ($65 and $80, respectively, both including HBO) offer a cloud DVR with 500 hours of storage and 90-day retention, with 3 simultaneous streams.

It seems that they're harmonizing AT&T TV Now with the flagship AT&T TV that will launch nationwide in Feb. I'm still predicting that Plus and Max will be the only set of core packages offered on both services at that point (perhaps with a third "Starter" package sans locals or sports channels slotted underneath them). If that's AT&T's game plan, then they'll add some important missing channels to Plus and Max by then (including the A+E, AMC and probably Discovery networks).

In the end, the only real differences between AT&T TV and AT&T TV Now is that the latter won't require a contract or credit check but also won't offer some of the perks that the former does, including a free customized streaming device, sign-up gift cards and/or first-year discounts, and ongoing bundling discounts when combining TV with AT&T broadband service. But both services will sell the same set of channel packages with the same regular prices, with the same cloud DVR and number of streams, using the same app across retail devices.


----------



## NashGuy

ncted said:


> I tried Vue, Sling, DVTN, Phil, Hulu Live, and YTTV. YTTV had the best picture by far.


I think you're the first person I've ever seen post that YTTV has better PQ than AT&T TV Now (formerly DirecTV Now). The consensus among internet posters who've used both seems to be that YTTV has very good PQ but not as good as AT&T.

I've never seen YTTV firsthand but I know that when I had DTVN a couple years ago, using the Apple TV 4K they gave me, its live channels had the best PQ on average across all channels that I'd ever seen from any live cable TV source. (The second-best I've ever seen was DirecTV satellite.) That said, the PQ on cloud DVR and VOD was noticeably worse. But they've switched out their cloud DVR platform since then and done who knows what else. When I did the free trial of AT&T Watch TV a few months ago, it had the same level of PQ on live channels as I remembered seeing on DTVN.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

mdavej said:


> Yeah, I'm very impressed with Channels. No doubt it's worth every penny. I just have no desire to record streams or pay ANY fees at all. So Recast is enough for me. Not to mention the simplicity of having one box versus all the individual parts I'd need for Channels. Been there, done that 10 years ago.


I mainly just use it for OTA high quality recordings and I really like the Gracenote guide they use.

I also have Locast added so I can get a couple channels that don't come in OTA and aren't in my cable package.

I rarely record the TVE channels and mainly use my Tivo Bolt Vox for that.


----------



## fyodor

wmcbrine said:


> (Maybe repeating myself here...) I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for, but, you should know that Channels records its videos to plain unencrypted files in standard formats on your own disk. You really can do whatever you want with them.


How does this work. Does it do a screen capture/reencoding like Playready? Is there loss of video quality?


----------



## mdavej

fyodor said:


> How does this work. Does it do a screen capture/reencoding like Playready? Is there loss of video quality?


Yes it is screen capture. I've heard the quality is good.

I don't think Playready did screen capture. It recorded the streams directly from the connected tuners as-is, like Tivo and cable DVRs do.

As I've said before, if Channels gets big enough for the studios to notice, they will be sued out of existence like all who have come before them as they are doing an end run around existing copy protection. Enjoy it while it lasts.


----------



## wmcbrine

fyodor said:


> How does this work. Does it do a screen capture/reencoding like Playready? Is there loss of video quality?


No, the encoded streams are copied directly from the channels' respective TVE sites. Quality varies but is the same as you'd see live on those sites.


----------



## fyodor

mdavej said:


> Yes it is screen capture. I've heard the quality is good.
> 
> I don't think Playready did screen capture. It recorded the streams directly from the connected tuners as-is, like Tivo and cable DVRs do.


Playready did screen capture and transcoding. That's why it was limited to 720p (live transcoding difficulties) and why the quality was inconsistent.


----------



## mdavej

fyodor said:


> Playready did screen capture and transcoding. That's why it was limited to 720p (live transcoding difficulties) and why the quality was inconsistent.


Maybe we're talking about different things. I'm thinking of PlayReady from Microsoft that was used with Windows Media Center. It managed DRM and recorded at full resolution in the native format. Quality was always identical to the source. I made thousands of 1080i, MPEG-2 recordings with it.
PlayReady - Wikipedia

What you're describing sounds like "PlayOn", not "PlayReady".


----------



## mdavej

NashGuy said:


> I think you're the first person I've ever seen post that YTTV has better PQ than AT&T TV Now (formerly DirecTV Now). The consensus among internet posters who've used both seems to be that YTTV has very good PQ but not as good as AT&T.


I've never really done a side-by-side comparison. But going from memory, YTTV appears a little softer across the board than ATTTVN. Perhaps the compression is a little different. But it's not enough of a difference for justify paying the huge premium and ending up with less DVR space, no profiles, not to mention a DVR that actually works and an app that doesn't crash frequently. The trouble calls I get from other family members since switching to YTTV has gone from a few every week to zero.

Bottom line, AT&T has a slight edge in PQ, but is inferior in every other respect.


----------



## swyman18

NashGuy said:


> This table is outdated for AT&T TV Now. As of a week or so ago, their flagship Plus and Max packages ($65 and $80, respectively, both including HBO) offer a cloud DVR with 500 hours of storage and 90-day retention, with 3 simultaneous streams.
> 
> It seems that they're harmonizing AT&T TV Now with the flagship AT&T TV that will launch nationwide in Feb. I'm still predicting that Plus and Max will be the only set of core packages offered on both services at that point (perhaps with a third "Starter" package sans locals or sports channels slotted underneath them). If that's AT&T's game plan, then they'll add some important missing channels to Plus and Max by then (including the A+E, AMC and probably Discovery networks).
> 
> In the end, the only real differences between AT&T TV and AT&T TV Now is that the latter won't require a contract or credit check but also won't offer some of the perks that the former does, including a free customized streaming device, sign-up gift cards and/or first-year discounts, and ongoing bundling discounts when combining TV with AT&T broadband service. But both services will sell the same set of channel packages with the same regular prices, with the same cloud DVR and number of streams, using the same app across retail devices.


From what I've been reading, they are touting AT&T TV as pretty much a direct replacement for DirectTV. Meaning any channels/package that you can get via DirectTV will also be available on AT&T TV. I highly doubt that, but we'll see once it is live nationwide. Or I may be misinterpreting it.

Like for example, on DirectTV you can subscribe to a "Sports Package" that will get you every regional sports network they offer, regardless of your location. With live games blacked out if you are out of market, obviously.

For example, as a displaced New Englander I used to like to get NBC Sports Boston when I had DirectTV back in the day, for the news shows and such. PS Vue was the only streaming service that I know of that had a similar "Sports Package" that gave you all of the regional networks they offered.


----------



## NashGuy

swyman18 said:


> From what I've been reading, they are touting AT&T TV as pretty much a direct replacement for DirectTV. Meaning any channels/package that you can get via DirectTV will also be available on AT&T TV. I highly doubt that, but we'll see once it is live nationwide. Or I may be misinterpreting it.
> 
> Like for example, on DirectTV you can subscribe to a "Sports Package" that will get you every regional sports network they offer, regardless of your location. With live games blacked out if you are out of market, obviously.
> 
> For example, as a displaced New Englander I used to like to get NBC Sports Boston when I had DirectTV back in the day, for the news shows and such. PS Vue was the only streaming service that I know of that had a similar "Sports Package" that gave you all of the regional networks they offered.


Well, AT&T TV is going to be the company's flagship cable TV service, displacing both DirecTV and Uverse TV in that regard. AT&T TV will get all of the marketing love from the company going forward.

But since last spring, I've been predicting that AT&T TV will exclusively offer subscribers a new revamped set of channel packages including the Plus and Max packages that were introduced on DirecTV Now (renamed later to AT&T TV Now) last March. And these new packages would all non-optionally include HBO Max. In fact, I've been saying that this new set of packages would also become the exclusive options offered on DirecTV (satellite) too.

Since last summer, Plus and Max have been offered in the online ordering system for both AT&T TV (which soft-launched in a few pilot markets in Aug. 2019) and DirecTV, but not really advertised or pushed by either. Instead, both services have pushed the old set of DirecTV packages (Entertainment, Choice, Xtra, Ultimate) as their default offerings. But why has AT&T even bothered to stick the new Plus and Max in those systems unless they have bigger plans for them? Keep in mind that the legacy package line-up is basically what AT&T inherited when they purchased DirecTV five or six years ago. Since then, they've renegotiated all those channel carriage contracts, with the new deals spanning DirecTV as well as Uverse TV and their streaming platforms (AT&T TV and AT&T TV Now). I think Plus and Max is the new, simplified, unified line-up that they'll sell to all *new* subscribers across all platforms.

And then last week, some AT&T TV pilot subscribers' online accounts are showing that their current legacy packages will end on Feb. 11. The choices they're presented with for replacement? Plus and Max. BTW, it's also been confirmed by AT&T that AT&T TV will officially launch nationwide in Feb. I'd say Feb. 11 or 12 is a good bet for exactly when.

But as I've said all along, Plus and Max are incomplete. They don't include channels from A+E, AMC or Discovery Networks. And certain other niche channels and sports packages (like out-of-market RSNs) just aren't available. So AT&T will have to fix all that if they are going to make Plus and Max the new system they exclusively use on AT&T TV (and possibly DirecTV too). They've indicated that they intend for all of the content and features that DirecTV has to be made available via AT&T TV. I suspect that some of the missing channels will end up in optional add-on packs priced at $5-10 each that can be tacked onto either Plus or Max. We'll see soon...


----------



## fyodor

You are 100 percent correct - I had a brain fart and was thinking of PlayLater the Playon video download feature.



mdavej said:


> Maybe we're talking about different things. I'm thinking of PlayReady from Microsoft that was used with Windows Media Center. It managed DRM and recorded at full resolution in the native format. Quality was always identical to the source. I made thousands of 1080i, MPEG-2 recordings with it.
> PlayReady - Wikipedia
> 
> What you're describing sounds like "PlayOn", not "PlayReady".


----------



## ncted

NashGuy said:


> I think you're the first person I've ever seen post that YTTV has better PQ than AT&T TV Now (formerly DirecTV Now). The consensus among internet posters who've used both seems to be that YTTV has very good PQ but not as good as AT&T.
> 
> I've never seen YTTV firsthand but I know that when I had DTVN a couple years ago, using the Apple TV 4K they gave me, its live channels had the best PQ on average across all channels that I'd ever seen from any live cable TV source. (The second-best I've ever seen was DirecTV satellite.) That said, the PQ on cloud DVR and VOD was noticeably worse. But they've switched out their cloud DVR platform since then and done who knows what else. When I did the free trial of AT&T Watch TV a few months ago, it had the same level of PQ on live channels as I remembered seeing on DTVN.


Hmmm...I just went back and looked at my notes. To specify my complaint about DTVN PQ when I tried it:



> At its best, DTVN looks excellent, but it is constantly adjusting the bitrate. It is very distracting that the picture will go from crisp to slightly fuzzy to terrible in the space of a few minutes, and it happens regularly.


This would have been on a second generation Firestick (w/Alexa), hardwired to my gigabit ethernet network over a week or so time-wise. My ISP is AT&T Fiber, with 100/100Mb service. YTTV PQ was/has been consistently better, although it may not be as good as DTVN (ATTNow) at its best, but I never saw that personally.


----------



## randian

I dumped DTVN because I only watch shows from DVR, never live, and the picture quality of anything from their DVR was atrocious, even worse than Comcast's sketchy HD. Not to mention their DVR was bizarrely unreliable, frequently offering "recordings" that were missing chunks of time. Perhaps they've fixed both of those problems, but it's hard to find sources mentioning it, and reviews of the service rather oddly only review the picture quality of the live channels, never the DVR.


----------



## NashGuy

ncted said:


> Hmmm...I just went back and looked at my notes. To specify my complaint about DTVN PQ when I tried it:
> 
> _At its best, DTVN looks excellent, but it is constantly adjusting the bitrate. It is very distracting that the picture will go from crisp to slightly fuzzy to terrible in the space of a few minutes, and it happens regularly._​
> This would have been on a second generation Firestick (w/Alexa), hardwired to my gigabit ethernet network over a week or so time-wise. My ISP is AT&T Fiber, with 100/100Mb service. YTTV PQ was/has been consistently better, although it may not be as good as DTVN (ATTNow) at its best, but I never saw that personally.


Hmm, I don't recall that happening with me. Now, I do remember there being a few instances when I first got it in Jan. 2018, especially on popular live sports (e.g. college football bowl games), where the bitrate would jump around. But they seemed to fix that and for the next few months that I had DTVN, stations would lock in quickly with the top-quality bitrate and stay there. Some channels looked better than others though (as seems to be the case on any MVPD).

As randian says, though, PQ from the DVR was bad and it was also buggy. I just chalked that up to the fact that the feature was in beta. (I was one of the beta testers for their revamped UI and cloud DVR, both of which were rolled out to everyone in June 2018.) Sounds like the bugginess has improved, based on reports I've read in the past several months, although I still don't know if there's a difference in PQ between live and recorded content.

I was using an Apple TV 4K connected via ethernet. IIRC, I switched ISPs midway through my 4-month stint with DTVN, first using Comcast and then AT&T Internet (Uverse/FTTN), with download speeds around 50 Mbps on both.


----------



## Bigg

swyman18 said:


> From what I've been reading, they are touting AT&T TV as pretty much a direct replacement for DirectTV. Meaning any channels/package that you can get via DirectTV will also be available on AT&T TV. I highly doubt that, but we'll see once it is live nationwide. Or I may be misinterpreting it.
> 
> Like for example, on DirectTV you can subscribe to a "Sports Package" that will get you every regional sports network they offer, regardless of your location. With live games blacked out if you are out of market, obviously.


It's going to be quite a while, if ever, before all the rights are completely matched up between U-Verse, DirecTV, and AT&T TV. Unfortunately, we've ended up with this hodge-podge of different laws that treat U-Verse ("cable"), DirecTV (DBS), and AT&T TV (Internet TV) as three different categories, even though it makes no sense at this point to do so.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> It's going to be quite a while, if ever, before all the rights are completely matched up between U-Verse, DirecTV, and AT&T TV. Unfortunately, we've ended up with this hodge-podge of different laws that treat U-Verse ("cable"), DirecTV (DBS), and AT&T TV (Internet TV) as three different categories, even though it makes no sense at this point to do so.


Well, at this point, there's not a *ton* of differences in terms of what they're carrying on their streaming vs. legacy platforms. Main things still missing from streaming are various locals here and there across the country (including all PBS stations). And, oddly, they're not carrying any of the 4 SportsNet RSNs they own yet on streaming. And lastly, NFL Network and NFL Sunday Ticket are only on DirecTV, not Uverse TV or streaming. (I suspect that will remain the case until AT&T and the NFL resolve what will happen with NFLST after the 2020-21 season, which is the final one on their contract.)

But pretty much all of the national cable nets are available across all platforms. I suspect we'll see them light up several more locals on streaming here very soon, especially in those markets where AT&T Fiber is available (given that that's where they'll mainly sell AT&T TV). Since acquiring DirecTV, I think AT&T has now renewed their contract with all the major cable/broadcast network groups and I think that all those new contracts were written to cover satellite+Uverse TV+streaming. And I know that in the latter half of last year, they renewed carriage deals with the two biggest owners of locals, Nexstar and Sinclair. I suspect that part of the reason that the launch of AT&T TV kept getting pushed back was to allow AT&T to finish renegotiating all those contracts, to get streaming rights, to be able to restructure their channel packages, and to use the power of their size to get as favorable deals as possible to last them through the early 2020s.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Well, at this point, there's not a *ton* of differences in terms of what they're carrying on their streaming vs. legacy platforms. Main things still missing from streaming are various locals here and there across the country (including all PBS stations).


That's the thing. A lot of it comes down to locals and RSNs, which are some of the most key channels.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> That's the thing. A lot of it comes down to locals and RSNs, which are some of the most key channels.


Yeah, although there are very few RSNs at this point that aren't on AT&T TV/Now. Mainly AT&T's four RSNs. They've got all the Fox Sports and NBC Sports RSNs. They finally renewed a deal with Altitude (Denver) last year, so I assume that's on its way. And recently renewed a deal with Sinclair to include their new Marquee (Chicago Cubs) net. I don't really know of any RSNs (other than AT&T's 4) that are carried on DTV but not AT&T TV (although there could very well be some I don't know about). I guess they're holding off on adding their own RSNs because they're about to sell them? That's been rumored since last summer.

Here's AT&T TV's channel line-up. It's still missing ION and WGN America. (Big woop.) But I assume the latter one will get added given the recent contract renewal with Nexstar, which now owns WGN America.


----------



## tenthplanet

AT&T TV NOW already has WGN America so I would guess the regular AT&T TV will see it soon.


----------



## NashGuy

tenthplanet said:


> AT&T TV NOW already has WGN America so I would guess the regular AT&T TV will see it soon.


Oh, I didn't realize that. Well if it's in a given package on AT&T TV Now, then I'm sure it's in that same package on AT&T TV. They're really the same thing at this point, it's just a difference in branding/marketing/pricing between the two. Some even wonder if the AT&T TV Now brand will simply die when AT&T TV launches nationwide. When signing up for AT&T TV, they could just give consumers a choice: take a contract and get certain perks (free device, Visa gift card and/or discounts) or don't take the contract and forego the perks.


----------



## Puppy76

Yowzers, missing PBS would be a complete non-starter for me (as would not having a GREAT DVR, if not compatibility with TiVo or whatever).


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Nearly 3 million subscribers ditched DirecTV last year. Will AT&T do the same?

_"Indeed, cord-cutting accelerated faster than many TV executives anticipated. But Moffett and more than half a dozen current and former DirecTV employees who spoke with the Los Angeles Times said some of AT&T's actions contributed to the decline."_


----------



## Bigg

Puppy76 said:


> Yowzers, missing PBS would be a complete non-starter for me (as would not having a GREAT DVR, if not compatibility with TiVo or whatever).


PBS is pretty much the reason my TiVo exists.


----------



## NashGuy

Puppy76 said:


> Yowzers, missing PBS would be a complete non-starter for me (as would not having a GREAT DVR, if not compatibility with TiVo or whatever).


Yeah, I heart PBS. Given that system's unique characteristics, it took them quite awhile to work everything out so that they could be included in live streaming cable TV services. (It involved PBS at a national level, their various independent member stations, streaming rights for the content they air, etc.) Anyhow, they finally got everything in place and YouTube TV was the first streaming cable TV system to add them, just recently.

There's every reason to believe that AT&T TV will do so too, given that DirecTV and Uverse TV have always included PBS stations. If they're not on the service for the nationwide launch coming up in a week or two, then I expect PBS to show up on AT&T TV pretty soon thereafter. (BTW, I expect C-SPAN to be carried too.)


----------



## foghorn2

PBS is ok, its not the same PBS of yesterday. Too many lousy shows, and even Nova is not the same- its puts me to sleep.
I watch the sub-channels more- esp the one with Bob Ross


----------



## Puppy76

foghorn2 said:


> PBS is ok, its not the same PBS of yesterday. Too many lousy shows, and even Nova is not the same- its puts me to sleep.
> I watch the sub-channels more- esp the one with Bob Ross


Mmm, I think it's as good as ever, if not better.

I had no idea what garbage those fake "educational/science/history" type channels on cable were. Like because I've watched PBS for decades, I just thought those were similar, and then actually seeing them a while back, I was revolted. They're like a 0 on a scale where PBS is a 10. Made me think even LESS of cable.

IMO at this point cable is basically a handful of good shows that constitute the output from a Hulu or AppleTV+ or Netflix or whatever, only for like LITERALLY 25x the price lol


----------



## foghorn2

The last good Nova I saw was Black Hole Apocalypse with Janna Levin , that last planet series with that new Spock from the last movies put me to sleep, terrible narration, same shots over and over again and no new info, much like the science shows on cable.

The first Cosmos appeared on PBS in the 80's. The last one and the new one are on NatGeo. Too bad PBS sucks now with all their garbage shows.


----------



## Mikeguy

And get off my lawn!


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## ncted

foghorn2 said:


> The last good Nova I saw was Black Hole Apocalypse with Janna Levin , that last planet series with that new Spock from the last movies put me to sleep, terrible narration, same shots over and over again and no new info, much like the science shows on cable.
> 
> The first Cosmos appeared on PBS in the 80's. The last one and the new one are on NatGeo. Too bad PBS sucks now with all their garbage shows.


Do you miss *Jack Horkheimer: Star Hustler *too_?_


----------



## slowbiscuit

Frontline alone is worth getting PBS for, not to mention stuff like Ken Burns' specials (Country Music recently), American Experience etc. Nova is a shadow of what it was but still has useful info at times. I watch it in quick mode because they're so repetitive within the eps.

Must-have stations.


----------



## Bigg

foghorn2 said:


> Too bad PBS sucks now with all their garbage shows.


You obviously haven't actually watched PBS recently. NOVA, Frontline, and This Old House are all excellent.


----------



## mschnebly

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Nearly 3 million subscribers ditched DirecTV last year. Will AT&T do the same?
> 
> _"Indeed, cord-cutting accelerated faster than many TV executives anticipated. But Moffett and more than half a dozen current and former DirecTV employees who spoke with the Los Angeles Times said some of AT&T's actions contributed to the decline."_


I know where they went when they ditched!

"Today Google announced that YouTube TV now has over 2 million subscribers; this puts YouTube TV in 3rd place behind Hulu and Sling TV."

"Google also announced that YouTube Music and YouTube Premium now have over 20 million subscribers. That works out to be about $2.4 billion in revenue in 2019. YouTube overall has $15.1 billion in revenue, not counting YouTube TV. This is the first time YouTube had over $15 billion in revenue."

YouTube TV Now Has Over 2 Million Subscribers - Cord Cutters News


----------



## Bigg

mschnebly said:


> I know where they went when they ditched!


The numbers have shown that the recapture rate for vMVPDs is very low, around 10%. What has been happening over the past four years is U-Verse was backfilling for DirecTV, which has been backfilling for cable that whole time. The whole industry is losing subscribers, the numbers just look uneven due to people switching providers (or migrating in the case of AT&T U-Verse and AT&T DirecTV).

The vMVPDs have a nice niche, but it is just that, a niche.


----------



## ncted

Bigg said:


> The numbers have shown that the recapture rate for vMVPDs is very low, around 10%. What has been happening over the past four years is U-Verse was backfilling for DirecTV, which has been backfilling for cable that whole time. The whole industry is losing subscribers, the numbers just look uneven due to people switching providers (or migrating in the case of AT&T U-Verse and AT&T DirecTV).
> 
> The vMVPDs have a nice niche, but it is just that, a niche.


The idiots at MoffettNathanson think otherwise (not saying I agree -- these dudes rarely get it right):

https://www.multichannel.com/news/hulu-live-and-youtube-tv-have-big-q4


----------



## mschnebly

Bigg said:


> The numbers have shown that the recapture rate for vMVPDs is very low, around 10%. What has been happening over the past four years is U-Verse was backfilling for DirecTV, which has been backfilling for cable that whole time. The whole industry is losing subscribers, the numbers just look uneven due to people switching providers (or migrating in the case of AT&T U-Verse and AT&T DirecTV).
> 
> The vMVPDs have a nice niche, but it is just that, a niche.


I thought the cable cos would lose subscribers but I never thought it would accelerate like it has. Just this last year was a huge change in the way folks get their video. I'm starting to hear folks all over talking about streaming as a change now. Those corny Sling commercials are everywhere.


----------



## NashGuy

To the extent that vMVPDs continue to offer consumers a way to get a bundle of cable channels they care about at a _significantly_ cheaper cost than their traditional cable/sat provider, I expect to see more consumers shift to vMVPDs again this year. Because as consumers spend more money on the growing number of direct-to-consumer services, including Disney+, HBO Max, Hulu, Apple TV+, CBS AA, etc., then many of them will be motivated to cut back on what they spend on the cable bundle.

The question I have is the degree to which vMVPDs will continue being able to offer "good-enough" bundles including the channels consumers care most about -- locals + sports + news -- at a cheap enough price to make it worthwhile for consumers to dump their current providers. We've been seeing a rationalization of pricing among the vMVPDs as they aim for profitability and I expect that will continue.


----------



## trip1eX

I want a ESPN1&2, NBCSports, TNT and FS1 bundle. FS1 for my local sports. Maybe I could even do without TNT. 

So ESPN1&2 plus NBCSN plus FS1. Basic sports bundle. How would that be? $15/mo. And then be nice if they throw in CNBC. TNT possibly. 

That would be my cable bundle. The 5 channel bundle. PIck your 5 favorite channels. 
Then just need a good OTA DVR that incorporates than bundle and supports all streaming apps.


----------



## chicagobrownblue

trip1eX said:


> I want a ESPN1&2, NBCSports, TNT and FS1 bundle. FS1 for my local sports. Maybe I could even do without TNT.
> 
> So ESPN1&2 plus NBCSN plus FS1. Basic sports bundle. How would that be? $15/mo. And then be nice if they throw in CNBC. TNT possibly.
> 
> That would be my cable bundle. The 5 channel bundle. PIck your 5 favorite channels.
> Then just need a good OTA DVR that incorporates than bundle and supports all streaming apps.


The live sports package+ a friend had cost $99 when fees where added in. He canceled and his bill dropped by $99. I hooked up a cheapo antenna to his TV so he could get sports on OTA channels. All he misses is TCM and he is OK with that.


----------



## trip1eX

chicagobrownblue said:


> The live sports package+ a friend had cost $99 when fees where added in. He canceled and his bill dropped by $99. I hooked up a cheapo antenna to his TV so he could get sports on OTA channels. All he misses is TCM and he is OK with that.


Well that's what I would do with a basic sports bundle. I would add OTA to it. If someone could deliver my basic sports package for $15/mo maybe $20/mo possibly $25/mo I would do it instead of YTTV at $50/mo. Because I don't need all the movies and shows because I have Netflix etc with plenty of shows and movies ad-free on-demand.


----------



## randian

NashGuy said:


> The question I have is the degree to which vMVPDs will continue being able to offer "good-enough" bundles including the channels consumers care most about -- locals + sports + news -- at a cheap enough price to make it worthwhile for consumers to dump their current providers.


To a large extent they can't. So long as Comcast, Cox, etc can raise Internet prices at will, no matter how much the vMVPDs try the hold the line, and given the large price increases we've seen lately, they aren't, streaming can be forced to be more expensive than a cable bundle.


----------



## ncted

randian said:


> To a large extent they can't. So long as Comcast, Cox, etc can raise Internet prices at will, no matter how much the vMVPDs try the hold the line, and given the large price increases we've seen lately, they aren't, streaming can be forced to be more expensive than a cable bundle.


Which is why we need ISP competition. I have 3 options available to me, so I don't really have to worry too much about prices going up a whole lot, but most people are not in that situation. I'll be curious to see what the market is like once Starlink is complete.


----------



## tapokata

I’m in the same camp, with my preference for my regional sports network, no ESPN or others, coupled with OTA. I get that with a Sling Blue sub, which I have active only during baseball season (March - September). That is seven months at $25 per, or $175. Averaged across the year, and that cost is under $15 per month each year.

I still wish MLB would change the blackout restrictions on their service, which would create the perfect TV bundle for me.... baseball, and OTA.


----------



## lparsons21

ncted said:


> Which is why we need ISP competition. I have 3 options available to me, so I don't really have to worry too much about prices going up a whole lot, but most people are not in that situation. I'll be curious to see what the market is like once Starlink is complete.


Yeah, here the choice is Mediacom with tiered speeds and data caps, Wisper at a max of 20Mbps or Frontier that struggles to do 3Mbps in my subdivision. Hard to negotiate when there really is only one game in town.

I'm hoping Starlink is successful because at minimum it could be used as a threat for negotiations.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> I want a ESPN1&2, NBCSports, TNT and FS1 bundle.  FS1 for my local sports. Maybe I could even do without TNT.
> 
> So ESPN1&2 plus NBCSN plus FS1. Basic sports bundle. How would that be? $15/mo. And then be nice if they throw in CNBC. TNT possibly.
> 
> That would be my cable bundle. The 5 channel bundle. PIck your 5 favorite channels.
> Then just need a good OTA DVR that incorporates than bundle and supports all streaming apps.


I just can't see a bundle of only sports channels, owned by different companies, ever emerging. At some point in the future, perhaps we'll see the big media owners cooperating to allow a bundle that includes all of their broadcast nets (e.g. ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC), sports nets (e.g. ESPN, FS1, Golf, Big Ten Network, etc.) and news nets (Fox News, MSNBC, CBSN, etc.). Because those will eventually contain just about all the stuff that viewers aren't getting from their DTC services that focus more on non-live entertainment.

Hulu's CEO (who is soon leaving the company as it gets further absorbed into Disney) stated over a year ago that he'd like to see Hulu offer that kind of skinny bundle of live channels. But my guess is such a bundle would still cost at least $40, because locals, sports and news are what cost so much. (And since Sinclair owns so many local affiliates of the big broadcast nets, they'd only participate if this hypothetical bundle also includes all the RSNs they now own.)

I do think that eventually we'll see Disney choose to set ESPN free from the bundle, the way that HBO and Showtime did back in 2015. You'd still be able to get the ESPN channels via the bundle or you could pay one price to get ALL their content via the ESPN app (basically the same stuff you can get now in that app if you both authenticate your full-bundle cable TV account and also subscribe to ESPN+). And that'll probably cost close to $20/mo.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> I just can't see a bundle of only sports channels, owned by different companies, ever emerging. At some point in the future, perhaps we'll see the big media owners cooperating to allow a bundle that includes all of their broadcast nets (e.g. ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC), sports nets (e.g. ESPN, FS1, Golf, Big Ten Network, etc.) and news nets (Fox News, MSNBC, CBSN, etc.). Because those will eventually contain just about all the stuff that viewers aren't getting from their DTC services that focus more on non-live entertainment.
> 
> Hulu's CEO (who is soon leaving the company as it gets further absorbed into Disney) stated over a year ago that he'd like to see Hulu offer that kind of skinny bundle of live channels. But my guess is such a bundle would still cost at least $40, because locals, sports and news are what cost so much. (And since Sinclair owns so many local affiliates of the big broadcast nets, they'd only participate if this hypothetical bundle also includes all the RSNs they now own.)
> 
> I do think that eventually we'll see Disney choose to set ESPN free from the bundle, the way that HBO and Showtime did back in 2015. You'd still be able to get the ESPN channels via the bundle or you could pay one price to get ALL their content via the ESPN app (basically the same stuff you can get now in that app if you both authenticate your full-bundle cable TV account and also subscribe to ESPN+). And that'll probably cost close to $20/mo.


they already allow packages without the networks. And have skinny bundles with channels from different networks.

the obstacle I always thought was they want you to include their other stuff whenever you ask for something.

I definitely see ESPN as it's own streaming service in the future ESPN+ is that service right now sans the content from the cable channels. I see all sports going streaming. 
This is just what I would subscribe to now if it were offered in terms of a cabletv OTT service.


----------



## Bigg

ncted said:


> The idiots at MoffettNathanson think otherwise (not saying I agree -- these dudes rarely get it right):
> 
> https://www.multichannel.com/news/hulu-live-and-youtube-tv-have-big-q4


When vMPVDs first came out, they grew rapidly, as there was some pent-up demand. I think this year may have also had some pent-up demand for a better vMVPD service, but I don't think that can last forever. I think the market can support a handful of vMVPD offerings in the long run, but they will still be a relatively small part of the overall market.



NashGuy said:


> To the extent that vMVPDs continue to offer consumers a way to get a bundle of cable channels they care about at a _significantly_ cheaper cost than their traditional cable/sat provider, I expect to see more consumers shift to vMVPDs again this year.


I think vMVPDs have a lot of room to grow beyond a 10% recapture rate, and possibly get back some subscribers who have already cut the cord, but I don't think that they're going to recapture a majority of people who have cut the cord. Many people just aren't interested in paying even what the vMVPDs offer, or aren't interested in the offerings at all if they've got plenty to watch on Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu OTT SVOD.



lparsons21 said:


> I'm hoping Starlink is successful because at minimum it could be used as a threat for negotiations.


Starlink is not going to compete with cable, VDSL, fiber, or decent WiSPs. They are going to target high frequency traders, airplanes selling Wi-Fi for $20/flight, and rural users who have no other options where Starlink just has to be better than HughesNet, Excede, and maybe fixed wireless or old, slow DSL lines which isn't exactly a high bar to clear.



NashGuy said:


> I just can't see a bundle of only sports channels, owned by different companies, ever emerging. At some point in the future, perhaps we'll see the big media owners cooperating to allow a bundle that includes all of their broadcast nets (e.g. ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC), sports nets (e.g. ESPN, FS1, Golf, Big Ten Network, etc.) and news nets (Fox News, MSNBC, CBSN, etc.). Because those will eventually contain just about all the stuff that viewers aren't getting from their DTC services that focus more on non-live entertainment.


Sports are a big problem. People generally don't follow ESPN or FS1, they follow their team. If they could buy a package of just their team's games, I think they'd be more likely to want to pay for them. If they keep having to chase down a dozen sports channels, including some obscure ones, to get every game for a season, they may just give up, or get a skinny bundle and catch the bigger games that are on a major network like ESPN or FS1.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> they already allow packages without the networks. And have skinny bundles with channels from different networks.


Not really. Sling does include those local affiliates of ABC, NBC and Fox that are owned and operated by the networks themselves. And all of the other vMVPDs in which ABC, NBC, CBS and/or Fox participate include not only those networks' O&O affiliates but also lots of their local affiliates owned by other companies like Sinclair, Nexstar, Meredith, etc.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> I definitely see ESPN as it's own streaming service in the future ESPN+ is that service right now sans the content from the cable channels. I see all sports going streaming.
> This is just what I would subscribe to now if it were offered in terms of a cabletv OTT service.


Yeah, and at *some* point down the road, ESPN will offer all their content as a standalone streaming service in the ESPN app. Because the ESPN subscriber base keeps shrinking by a few percentage points every year as more and more folks cut the cord. My guesstimate is 2023, maybe 2022, when we'll see ESPN do that.

And at that point, won't NBC be forced to make the live sports from NBCSN, Golf, etc. available as an add-on to Peacock? Won't Fox be forced to offer their own little Fox Sports streaming service?

At that point, maybe we see all those companies also willing to pool their broadcast, sports and news linear channels into a bundle that anyone can distribute. Who knows.

The bundle is slowly weakening. But once ESPN abandons it, the dam will truly break.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> Not really. Sling does include those local affiliates of ABC, NBC and Fox that are owned and operated by the networks themselves. And all of the other vMVPDs in which ABC, NBC, CBS and/or Fox participate include not only those networks' O&O affiliates but also lots of their local affiliates owned by other companies like Sinclair, Nexstar, Meredith, etc.


Sling Orange doesn't have ABC afaik yet has ESPN. IT all goes back to each media company wants you to take all if you take any. That's always been the obstacle right.

They might loosen up though as the industry evolves. Anyway pt was that's the package I would like to see because that's the core of what I mostly use cable for these days.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, and at *some* point down the road, ESPN will offer all their content as a standalone streaming service in the ESPN app. Because the ESPN subscriber base keeps shrinking by a few percentage points every year as more and more folks cut the cord. My guesstimate is 2023, maybe 2022, when we'll see ESPN do that.
> 
> And at that point, won't NBC be forced to make the live sports from NBCSN, Golf, etc. available as an add-on to Peacock? Won't Fox be forced to offer their own little Fox Sports streaming service?
> 
> At that point, maybe we see all those companies also willing to pool their broadcast, sports and news linear channels into a bundle that anyone can distribute. Who knows.
> 
> The bundle is slowly weakening. But once ESPN abandons it, the dam will truly break.


NBC has a lot of sports streaming already as well. They have various NBC Sports Gold passes. ...for the sports on NBCSN. YOu get additional coverage. Duplicate coverage in some cases. Replays. And other stuff. etc.

Not sure about Fox.

All the leagues do streaming too. Just with blackouts for local teams and nationally broadcast games.

The dam breaks when the cable exclusive stuff finds its way to direct to consumer streaming services.


----------



## randian

trip1eX said:


> NBC has a lot of sports streaming already as well. They have various NBC Sports Gold passes. ...for the sports on NBCSN. You get additional coverage. Duplicate coverage in some cases. Replays. And other stuff. etc.


Some of the Sports Gold passes have been severely decontented. The Track and Field pass no longer includes Diamond League events, for example, but is still priced at $99. Not a chance in hell I'm paying that.


----------



## trip1eX

randian said:


> Some of the Sports Gold passes have been severely decontented. The Track and Field pass no longer includes Diamond League events, for example, but is still priced at $99. Not a chance in hell I'm paying that.


Well it's always buyer beware. They have what seems like 10 passes and I can't speak for all of them. I only looked at 2 myself. and they seemed pretty reasonable.


----------



## mschnebly

The thing I really want to see and probably never will is the ability to select my favorite 10 or so channels for a bundle. When I really took a good look at what I was watching, it is just a few good stations and the rest is pure on demand from Prime and Netflix and quick binges of CBSAA and HBONow (Turn them on for a month and then off until the next time).


----------



## mdavej

mschnebly said:


> The thing I really want to see and probably never will is the ability to select my favorite 10 or so channels for a bundle.


This is exactly what Spectrum TV Choice is - 10 a la carte channels of your choice plus locals. I had it for a couple of years and absolutely loved it - until they raised the fees so much. It worked great with Tivo and was only $25. But all the fee hikes ultimately made it $45. Since DirecTV NOW was only $35 for 120 channels instead of 10, dropping Spectrum was a no-brainer. Then AT&T doubled the price of that. So now here I am with YTTV.


----------



## NashGuy

mschnebly said:


> The thing I really want to see and probably never will is the ability to select my favorite 10 or so channels for a bundle. When I really took a good look at what I was watching, it is just a few good stations and the rest is pure on demand from Prime and Netflix and quick binges of CBSAA and HBONow (Turn them on for a month and then off until the next time).


Yeah, that'll never happen on a major scale. (And to the extent that some MVPDs like Charter experiment with it, the pricing will be so high that it defeats the point.)

The a la carte future that cord-cutters have always said they want is arriving in the form of a la carte DTC services from each media group, with each of those services pooling content from their multiple linear channels.

Wonder when we're going to finally get a real announcement from Discovery about the launch of their own DTC service? Past reports indicated that would be happening this year.


----------



## mschnebly

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, that'll never happen on a major scale. (And to the extent that some MVPDs like Charter experiment with it, the pricing will be so high that it defeats the point.)
> 
> The a la carte future that cord-cutters have always said they want is arriving in the form of a la carte DTC services from each media group, with each of those services pooling content from their multiple linear channels.
> 
> Wonder when we're going to finally get a real announcement from Discovery about the launch of their own DTC service? Past reports indicated that would be happening this year.


At least Centurylink is offering an awesome deal! And NO CONTRACT! LOL


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, that'll never happen on a major scale. (And to the extent that some MVPDs like Charter experiment with it, the pricing will be so high that it defeats the point.)
> 
> The a la carte future that cord-cutters have always said they want is arriving in the form of a la carte DTC services from each media group, with each of those services pooling content from their multiple linear channels.
> 
> Wonder when we're going to finally get a real announcement from Discovery about the launch of their own DTC service? Past reports indicated that would be happening this year.


 



 IT's coming with all their brands, but more details to come later.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> IT's coming with all their brands, but more details to come later.


Key quote from that interview:

_"If we go ahead, which, we're looking, we think we're probably going to, that you'd pay a fee, or you'd authenticate through us, and you would see all of our brands... We're the number 1 or number 2 player for women in America, and you'd see all the content you love, plus Discovery."
_​His language seems to indicate that there's still some uncertainty around it and it's probably still in the gestational stage. Maybe a launch toward the end of the year? But it certainly sounds like the idea is to make their cable TV content available outside of the traditional channel bundle. Wonder if the OTT app will be strictly on-demand or if it will include live streams of their linear channels too?


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> Key quote from that interview:
> 
> _"If we go ahead, which, we're looking, we think we're probably going to, that you'd pay a fee, or you'd authenticate through us, and you would see all of our brands... We're the number 1 or number 2 player for women in America, and you'd see all the content you love, plus Discovery."
> _​His language seems to indicate that there's still some uncertainty around it and it's probably still in the gestational stage. Maybe a launch toward the end of the year? But it certainly sounds like the idea is to make their cable TV content available outside of the traditional channel bundle. Wonder if the OTT app will be strictly on-demand or if it will include live streams of their linear channels too?


Does it matter though? Who needs linear channels if the same content is on-demand? Watch same content whenever you want.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> Does it matter though? Who needs linear channels if the same content is on-demand? Watch same content whenever you want.


Yeah, I think it does. Especially for their kind of non-scripted content (watch in any order) and the demographic they draw. A lot of folks like to turn on the TV and just have something served up to them rather than spend time searching for something to watch. And live TV can be a shared, social experience too. Now, presumably a lot of those folks who care about all that just stick with the traditional cable bundle anyhow. But I do think that having the option of watching the linear channels in the DTC service would make it more attractive. And if Discovery is willing enough to cannibalize their MVPD distribution by putting all their brands and content in a DTC OTT app, I don't know why they wouldn't just go the whole way and put the actual linear channels in there too.

I remember Showtime's CEO saying a couple years ago that one of the data points that surprised them after they launched their OTT app -- which includes their live linear east and west feeds -- was the amount of time that users spend watching linear.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, I think it does. Especially for their kind of non-scripted content (watch in any order) and the demographic they draw. A lot of folks like to turn on the TV and just have something served up to them rather than spend time searching for something to watch. And live TV can be a shared, social experience too. Now, presumably a lot of those folks who care about all that just stick with the traditional cable bundle anyhow. But I do think that having the option of watching the linear channels in the DTC service would make it more attractive. And if Discovery is willing enough to cannibalize their MVPD distribution by putting all their brands and content in a DTC OTT app, I don't know why they wouldn't just go the whole way and put the actual linear channels in there too.
> 
> I remember Showtime's CEO saying a couple years ago that one of the data points that surprised them after they launched their OTT app -- which includes their live linear east and west feeds -- was the amount of time that users spend watching linear.


Netflix serves up content to you. Click the first thing you see.

Don't see the connection between non-scripted content and linear tv.

The linear channel business model is an ancient concept that's only there because that's the way the tv tech worked. No reason to continue that and bring it forward.

But I think legacy media companies have a hard time letting go of the concept of linear channels. And I bet some customers do too. That's why cable will drag on for quite awhile yet.


----------



## wizwor

Good-bye, keyboard: The future of input devices is (almost) here


trip1eX said:


> The linear channel business model is an ancient concept that's only there because that's the way the tv tech worked. No reason to continue that and bring it forward.
> 
> But I think legacy media companies have a hard time letting go of the concept of linear channels. And I bet some customers do too. That's why cable will drag on for quite awhile yet.


----------



## wizwor

trip1eX said:


> Does it matter though? Who needs linear channels if the same content is on-demand? Watch same content whenever you want.


I have never figured out why the streamers do not curate content for lazy viewers. The diginets have. Pluto does. Some of us simply turn on the tv, surf until something interesting comes up, and watch.


----------



## JandS

trip1eX said:


> Does it matter though? Who needs linear channels if the same content is on-demand? Watch same content whenever you want.


@trip1eX, my techie heart and 65+ gut is screaming "yes, it does, for many reasons!" My brain is asking "What generation are you?" I sincerely don't mean to offend because I'm interested in your contributions here. But I'm genuinely curious if there's an age bracket correlation.

Second point, not having linear channels is like going to a restaurant and asking "do you have this, do you have that". Linear is like having a menu complete with daily specials.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> Netflix serves up content to you. Click the first thing you see.


That's just not the way the psychology works. Netflix users tend to spend several minutes on average looking for something before ever jumping into anything.



trip1eX said:


> Don't see the connection between non-scripted content and linear tv.


Scripted shows have plots that continue from one episode to the next. They're more akin to chapters in a novel. With non-scripted TV (the stuff that the various nets owned by Discovery produce), each episode is pretty much standalone, like individual articles in a magazine. The latter kind of content works better than the former in the context of linear channels since it doesn't pre-suppose that you've been watching a given show up to a certain point. Very easy to slip into a random episode of House Hunters. Not so much with a random episode of Homeland if you hadn't been keeping up with it.



trip1eX said:


> The linear channel business model is an ancient concept that's only there because that's the way the tv tech worked. No reason to continue that and bring it forward.


Yes, but humans can be lazy and indecisive. I don't see why those aspects of human nature will necessarily change. Also, folks over a certain age are so used to consuming at least some part of their TV diets via live linear channels, that it will be very difficult for them to break that habit.



trip1eX said:


> But I think legacy media companies have a hard time letting go of the concept of linear channels. And I bet some customers do too. That's why cable will drag on for quite awhile yet.


Yup.


----------



## tenthplanet

I thought dvr's put an end to channel flipping long ago.


----------



## swyman18

JandS said:


> @trip1eX, my techie heart and 65+ gut is screaming "yes, it does, for many reasons!" My brain is asking "What generation are you?" I sincerely don't mean to offend because I'm interested in your contributions here. But I'm genuinely curious if there's an age bracket correlation.
> 
> Second point, not having linear channels is like going to a restaurant and asking "do you have this, do you have that". Linear is like having a menu complete with daily specials.


I very much agree with this. I'm 48 and while I have certainly embraced many aspects of streaming and watching content on-demand, I will always be a channel surfer at heart. And yes, I am certainly lazy.


----------



## trip1eX

wizwor said:


> I have never figured out why the streamers do not curate content for lazy viewers. The diginets have. Pluto does. Some of us simply turn on the tv, surf until something interesting comes up, and watch.


They do curate content. And you surf because that's what you've done for 40 years.


----------



## trip1eX

JandS said:


> @trip1eX, my techie heart and 65+ gut is screaming "yes, it does, for many reasons!" My brain is asking "What generation are you?" I sincerely don't mean to offend because I'm interested in your contributions here. But I'm genuinely curious if there's an age bracket correlation.
> 
> Second point, not having linear channels is like going to a restaurant and asking "do you have this, do you have that". Linear is like having a menu complete with daily specials.


No your 40 years of doing something a certain way is what is screaming yes it does matter. 

Not having linear channels means nothing. IT's the content that counts and being able to watch what you want when you want is king.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> That's just not the way the psychology works. Netflix users tend to spend several minutes on average looking for something before ever jumping into anything.


 YOu don't think people flip channels constantly trying to find something to watch or sit there and sift through their dvrs before finally jumping into anything?

Linear channels are something that any of us who grew up with them are used to. And many of us are comfortable with that. Nothing more.



NashGuy said:


> Scripted shows have plots that continue from one episode to the next. They're more akin to chapters in a novel. With non-scripted TV (the stuff that the various nets owned by Discovery produce), each episode is pretty much standalone, like individual articles in a magazine. The latter kind of content works better than the former in the context of linear channels since it doesn't pre-suppose that you've been watching a given show up to a certain point. Very easy to slip into a random episode of House Hunters. Not so much with a random episode of Homeland if you hadn't been keeping up with it.


It might work better than scripted content in a linear channel because you don't have to remember plot points but non-scripted content doesn't work better in a linear channel than on-demand.



NashGuy said:


> Yes, but humans can be lazy and indecisive. I don't see why those aspects of human nature will necessarily change. Also, folks over a certain age are so used to consuming at least some part of their TV diets via live linear channels, that it will be very difficult for them to break that habit.


It will be easy to break them of their habit. They will die off. Even before that, enough customers will leave to kill the cable business model.


----------



## trip1eX

wizwor said:


> Good-bye, keyboard: The future of input devices is (almost) here


Kmart near me just closed. By brother in law was telling me last week how it was the happening place in town when he was a kid as we happened to be sitting across from it having dinner at a resturant. He was like, Kmart used to have a cafe inside it and merry go round and sold aquariums and fish and it was just the place to go!!! Now it's dead. I could see it happening when I moved into this town ~8 years ago. I knew it was toast. Just because the Qwerty keyboard survived for 150 years didn't change that.

The key to being right about predictions is to just stick to the obvious ones.


----------



## wizwor

trip1eX said:


> They do curate content. And you surf because that's what you've done for 40 years.


Longer, but so what?


----------



## wizwor

trip1eX said:


> Kmart near me just closed. By brother in law was telling me last week how it was the happening place in town when he was a kid as we happened to be sitting across from it having dinner at a resturant. He was like, Kmart used to have a cafe inside it and merry go round and sold aquariums and fish and it was just the place to go!!! Now it's dead. I could see it happening when I moved into this town ~8 years ago. I knew it was toast. Just because the Qwerty keyboard survived for 150 years didn't change that.
> 
> The key to being right about predictions is to just stick to the obvious ones.


More people are not wrong than right. Just ask the ATSC 3.0 fanboys, climate change alarmists, or end of the world hand wringers. (see post #889.) My predictions that the world would be pretty much the same in five years, on the other hand, keep holding up.


----------



## mschnebly

NashGuy said:


> That's just not the way the psychology works. Netflix users tend to spend several minutes on average looking for something before ever jumping into anything.
> 
> Scripted shows have plots that continue from one episode to the next. They're more akin to chapters in a novel. With non-scripted TV (the stuff that the various nets owned by Discovery produce), each episode is pretty much standalone, like individual articles in a magazine. The latter kind of content works better than the former in the context of linear channels since it doesn't pre-suppose that you've been watching a given show up to a certain point. Very easy to slip into a random episode of House Hunters. Not so much with a random episode of Homeland if you hadn't been keeping up with it.
> 
> Yes, but humans can be lazy and indecisive. I don't see why those aspects of human nature will necessarily change. Also, folks over a certain age are so used to consuming at least some part of their TV diets via live linear channels, that it will be very difficult for them to break that habit.
> 
> Yup.


I find my self having a pretty good idea of what I want to watch in the evening so I sit and go for it. Then I'm like, wait... What's that? That looks interesting... and away I go on to something completely different. The streaming services seem to always serve up something right up front that catches my eye.


----------



## ncted

wizwor said:


> Good-bye, keyboard: The future of input devices is (almost) here


The can have my keyboard when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.


----------



## trip1eX

wizwor said:


> More people are not wrong than right. Just ask the ATSC 3.0 fanboys, climate change alarmists, or end of the world hand wringers. (see post #889.) My predictions that the world would be pretty much the same in five years, on the other hand, keep holding up.


So what? You don't think linear channels are going away because some people on the planet think Jesus is coming soon? And he hasn't shown up yet? I think you would fit in right next to the guy who routinely holds up that sign on the corner next to my kid's school. Because you are sounding just as crazy.  UNless you are the one that sits out there. Maybe you are. You do fit the profile.


----------



## JandS

trip1eX said:


> IT's the content that counts and being able to watch what you want when you want is king.


It's not as easy and simple as you make it sound. In the "content and accessibility is king" model what efforts, what actions, does a viewer do to determine what they want and then where that content is available and whether they have the requisite device / service?

How much *time *do they spend finding out in advance what they want to watch? To say you know what you want to watch means you have spent time figuring it out.

*Where *do they find this out? Browsing online? Reading ... online forums? Talking with friends? Seeing "ads"?

How much *technology *do they need to investigate, buy and hook up? Cycle through new TV, new AVR, new levels of HDMI, ISPs merging/changing, faster service, newer wifi standards, new home network distributions.

What does all this* cost*? 
You (and I think most of us here) have the luxury of having time to devote to this effort, gain this knowledge. We have the resources to buy the technology as it changes. We have at least the basic knowledge of how to integrate services and technology. But we're a very small and privileged bleeding edge minority.


----------



## trip1eX

JandS said:


> It's not as easy and simple as you make it sound. In the "content and accessibility is king" model what efforts, what actions, does a viewer do to determine what they want and then where that content is available and whether they have the requisite device / service?
> 
> How much *time *do they spend finding out in advance what they want to watch? To say you know what you want to watch means you have spent time figuring it out.
> 
> *Where *do they find this out? Browsing online? Reading ... online forums? Talking with friends? Seeing "ads"?
> 
> How much *technology *do they need to investigate, buy and hook up? Cycle through new TV, new AVR, new levels of HDMI, ISPs merging/changing, faster service, newer wifi standards, new home network distributions.
> 
> What does all this* cost*?
> You (and I think most of us here) have the luxury of having time to devote to this effort, gain this knowledge. We have the resources to buy the technology as it changes. We have at least the basic knowledge of how to integrate services and technology. But we're a very small and privileged bleeding edge minority.


You do realize you have to spend time figuring out what to watch on cable of old as well. We used to use the TV guide in the paper to help this process along with just watching content and seeing if we like it. That concept doesn't change in the on-demand world.

Everyone has the tech to do on-demand. Not sure what you're talking about. If anything the tech is cheaper than cable. And the kids with less money are on-demand to start with.


----------



## lparsons21

JandS

You make some good points, and for those of us that have used cable/sat with grid guides for years, switching to streaming is more daunting than it is for the younger crowd. 

Over the holidays I had family in for a few days and got to casually notice that most of the younger ones weren’t watching the TV at all or very little. I noticed that their phones/tablets were in front of their face most of the time either on social media or watching some video/show. For them, streaming makes perfect sense and the grid guide and so forth we older ones are used to has little value to them. And they are the future of video, not us.

Currently I’m on cable TV with a Tivo, but I’m going to cut the cord soon, just haven’t quite decided how. But the beauty of it is that if I cut the cord and it doesn’t work out as well as I want, it is just a phone call away to resubscribe to cable TV.

Finding something interesting to watch via streaming is easy, even if somewhat time consuming. The harder part might be finding the current shows on the various ‘channels’.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## lparsons21

trip1eX said:


> You do realize you have to spend time figuring out what to watch on cable of old as well. We used to use the TV guide in the paper to help this process along with just watching content and seeing if we like it. That concept doesn't change in the on-demand world.
> 
> Everyone has the tech to do on-demand. Not sure what you're talking about. If anything the tech is cheaper than cable. And the kids with less money are on-demand to start with.


You can still do the TV guide with TV Guide's app or website to find shows.

And yes, the tech to stream is usually already in our house, or cheap to buy. If I go all streaming my AppleTV can replace almost all the other stuff at my entertainment table, and that holds true if I owned a Roku or FireTV or other boxes. One time cost at worst for equipment.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> YOu don't think people flip channels constantly trying to find something to watch or sit there and sift through their dvrs before finally jumping into anything?
> 
> Linear channels are something that any of us who grew up with them are used to. And many of us are comfortable with that. Nothing more.


No, they are more than just that. Yes, part of the appeal of linear channels is simply ingrained habit and as older generations die off (which will take decades!), there will be less demand for them.

I've predicted before that linear channel TV will fade away over time (although it may not completely disappear). And I still believe that. But I think that on-demand platforms will need to evolve to embrace features that serve some of the needs that linear channels currently do.

An example: It's been revealed that NBCUniversal's upcoming Peacock app will automatically upon launch play fresh content in the background behind the menu of choices. The idea is to present viewers with a default viewing option. Immediate gratification. The clear idea is to be more like live TV (even if the default video it shows you isn't the same thing being streamed to all other Peacock viewers at that particular moment).

I think there's been an unstated assumption by many that in the future, all TV will look like Netflix. But I don't think so. It's going to look more like a cross between Netflix and traditional TV.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> No, they are more than just that. Yes, part of the appeal of linear channels is simply ingrained habit and as older generations die off (which will take decades!), there will be less demand for them.
> 
> I've predicted before that linear channel TV will fade away over time (although it may not completely disappear). And I still believe that. But I think that on-demand platforms will need to evolve to embrace features that serve some of the needs that linear channels currently do.
> 
> An example: It's been revealed that NBCUniversal's upcoming Peacock app will automatically upon launch play fresh content in the background behind the menu of choices. The idea is to present viewers with a default viewing option. Immediate gratification. The clear idea is to be more like live TV (even if the default video it shows you isn't the same thing being streamed to all over Peacock viewers at that moment).
> 
> I think there's been an unstated assumption by many that in the future, all TV will look like Netflix. But I don't think so. It's going to look more like a cross between Netflix and traditional TV.


Peacock isn't out yet. And Comcast is the cable company. Those guys have a hard time letting go of the status quo.

Also Netflix, 2 years ago, introduced the play content automatically as you scroll through the shows. The other day they finally announced the option to turn that off.  A lot of people didn't like it and have been vocal about it. I was torn myself whether I liked this feature or not. Sometimes I kind of did. A lot of the time I found it annoying.

But the linear channel business model and playing content automatically aren't the same thing.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> But the linear channel business model and playing content automatically aren't the same thing.


I didn't say they were the same thing. I was saying that autoplaying of content can serve some of the needs that linear channels currently do. Reading is fundamental.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> I didn't say they were the same thing. I was saying that autoplaying of content can serve some of the needs that linear channels currently do. Reading is fundamental.


But I didn't say you did.


----------



## trip1eX

"
In a letter to investors by CEO Anthony Wood and CFO Steve Louden (who is set to depart from the company after helping find his replacement), Roku made a big prediction: "By 2024 roughly half of all U.S. TV households will have cut the cord or never had traditional pay TV."

"While streaming became mainstream in the last decade, it is still a minority of TV viewing," the letter stated. "We have now entered the streaming decade when we believe consumers around the world will choose streaming as their primary way of viewing TV.""


----------



## lparsons21

That’s nice marketspeak, and might even turn out to be true. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Joe3

trip1eX said:


> "
> In a letter to investors by CEO Anthony Wood and CFO Steve Louden (who is set to depart from the company after helping find his replacement), TV


No, no, guys, just leave. No need to help finding your replacement. Just walk out the door and be careful of the snap back.
Thanks, but no thanks. Any five year old can take it from here.


----------



## JLV03

Fitzytv has been forced to shut down their TVE logins. Will Channels DVR be the next target?

FitzyTV DVR Agrees to Stop Offering TV Everywhere Functionality As It Faces a 'Legal Dispute' - Cord Cutters News


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Key quote from that interview:
> 
> _"If we go ahead, which, we're looking, we think we're probably going to, that you'd pay a fee, or you'd authenticate through us, and you would see all of our brands... We're the number 1 or number 2 player for women in America, and you'd see all the content you love, plus Discovery."
> _​His language seems to indicate that there's still some uncertainty around it and it's probably still in the gestational stage. Maybe a launch toward the end of the year? But it certainly sounds like the idea is to make their cable TV content available outside of the traditional channel bundle. Wonder if the OTT app will be strictly on-demand or if it will include live streams of their linear channels too?


The problem is their content has turned into garbage, as has most of the other cable channels. They're basically irrelevant at this point. Sports and cable news have been the only things on cable for several years now.



tenthplanet said:


> I thought dvr's put an end to channel flipping long ago.


YouTube and Netflix have to be finally changing the mentality of people who were stuck in the pre-1977 and pre-1999 worlds of linear and taped TV, since you have to actively seek out what you want. Even my dad, who was stubbornly refused to use a DVR for years is getting used to finding what he wants via streaming.



JandS said:


> It's not as easy and simple as you make it sound. In the "content and accessibility is king" model what efforts, what actions, does a viewer do to determine what they want and then where that content is available and whether they have the requisite device / service?
> 
> How much *time *do they spend finding out in advance what they want to watch? To say you know what you want to watch means you have spent time figuring it out.
> 
> *Where *do they find this out? Browsing online? Reading ... online forums? Talking with friends? Seeing "ads"?
> 
> How much *technology *do they need to investigate, buy and hook up? Cycle through new TV, new AVR, new levels of HDMI, ISPs merging/changing, faster service, newer wifi standards, new home network distributions.
> 
> What does all this* cost*?
> You (and I think most of us here) have the luxury of having time to devote to this effort, gain this knowledge. We have the resources to buy the technology as it changes. We have at least the basic knowledge of how to integrate services and technology. But we're a very small and privileged bleeding edge minority.


This is why Netflix and YouTube are so successful... people just watch whatever the algorithm serves up. However, there is a huge content discoverability problem in a world without cable, but cable can no longer solve that problem since virtually all of the interesting content that people are talking about isn't on cable anymore. With algorithms it's easy to be pushed into a niche of content, especially on YouTube, and never get out of it.

A lot of discovery is going to be social.... somebody talks about "hey did you see xyz" and then you go search for it. So in some ways, it's back to the basics in terms of content discoverability.

The tech side of it is getting easier than ever. No longer do you have to have Larry the proverbial cable guy come out and hook up a giant box that runs hot all the time in your living room, many people just use smart TVs, or if not a smart TV, a streaming box/stick that's wireless. Everything is moving to Wi-Fi since it has to be reliable and omni-present anyway, it works for all sorts of networked devices.


----------



## trip1eX

DISH pricing is looking attractive.

I chose the $60/mo package and went to the next to last page and the dvr and a 2nd tv are included in the price. $5/mo discount for autopay. $5/mo per each tv above the 2nd. I don't even see a contract mentioned. Pricing is good for at least 2 years. None of this goes way up in 1 year. You also get a $150 debit card. 

I didn't want to do the credit check, but that is the most streamlined I've seen pricing. Showed no fees. Is this too good to be true? Is the last page going to have a ton of fees and taxes. I am curious to know what the final price is. I always wanted to try satellite but never did. I doubt I ever will. Don't want to have to go on the roof and get the snow off the satellite. Nevermind my house is surrounded by tall trees. YTTV is cheap and easy and enjoyable. But the fantasy is there. lol.

btw DISH said they see themselves eventually merging with DirectTV on their conference call. The observation from Ergen being the environment has changed that such a merger today would be approved. And obviously benefit from the scale.


----------



## trip1eX

Charlie: "
We'll start with DISH DIRECTV. Probably inevitable that those two should go together just because the growth in TV is not coming from linear satellite TV providers. It's coming from huge programmers, and trillion-dollar companies. So, I think the regulatory environment, usually it's behind the marketplace, but I think that becomes increasingly likely that that makes logical sense. Having said that, obviously there still could be regulatory issues there. And we'll have to see how that all develops, but that's to me seems -- and maybe each company only has two subscribers when you put them together, but eventually those two are probably going to -- that's going to make some sense because you just can't -- you can't swim upstream against a real tide of the over-the-top, big players. I forgot what the first question was. Oh, some regional sports.

Look, everything we do here is somewhat mathematical in the sense that we have real data for a long time of what our customers watch. And I don't think it takes real rocket science to see when customers watch and how much they watch, what the value of programming is. And the marketplace has been historical, and somebody got a price, and so their typical negotiating tactic is well, we were getting paid X. We now want X plus for the next contract. And it's always X plus, and that can be -- as you've seen in the marketplace, that can be in the high single-digits in terms of price increases that people want. What we see is the exact opposite, which is people are watching less of many people's programmers, and we would say that your price should go down if people are watching less. And one of the big outliers was regional sports in terms of the amount of money they charge and collect versus the amount of people who actually view them. So, we would love to do a deal with regional sports.

We really like Sinclair the company. We would -- it was unfortunate circumstance in that Sinclair did not own the regional sports on our contract was up. And then once somebody leaves our network that wants regional sports, it doesn't make sense to burden the -- because we have less people today on our network, we still have some people that might want to watch regional sports. But it's a fraction of what it was last August when they came down. So, the programmers have a hard time understanding that once somebody leaves their network, there's no reason to put something back and tax the rest of people because the people who really watch the channel leave us because they have alternatives. So, the math was clear that the kind of offer we had from the Disney folks at the time that our contract was up was not even close to something that made sense for us.

A lot of times in business, it's really easy decisions, and some you got to think about. But this was an easy one, and that's where we are today. And obviously, Sinclair now owns it. We've had a great relationship with Sinclair for a long period of time. But whether you can put Humpty Dumpty back together again remains an open question."


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> The problem is their content has turned into garbage, as has most of the other cable channels. They're basically irrelevant at this point. Sports and cable news have been the only things on cable for several years now.


Regardless of your or my or any other random person's feelings about Discovery-owned programming, they are anything but irrelevant at this point. Last August, per Nielsen ratings, they were the number 1 media company for female viewers nationwide.

Discovery tops among female viewers in US | Ratings/Measurement | News | Rapid TV News


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> Regardless of your or my or any other random person's feelings about Discovery-owned programming, they are anything but irrelevant at this point. Last August, per Nielsen ratings, they were the number 1 media company for female viewers nationwide.
> 
> Discovery tops among female viewers in US | Ratings/Measurement | News | Rapid TV News


Yeah i guess for Bigg, one man's garbage is another 1000000 women's treasure.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> DISH pricing is looking attractive.
> 
> I chose the $60/mo package and went to the next to last page and the dvr and a 2nd tv are included in the price. $5/mo discount for autopay. $5/mo per each tv above the 2nd. I don't even see a contract mentioned. Pricing is good for at least 2 years. None of this goes way up in 1 year. You also get a $150 debit card.
> 
> I didn't want to do the credit check, but that is the most streamlined I've seen pricing. Showed no fees. Is this too good to be true? Is the last page going to have a ton of fees and taxes. I am curious to know what the final price is. I always wanted to try satellite but never did. I doubt I ever will. Don't want to have to go on the roof and get the snow off the satellite. Nevermind my house is surrounded by tall trees. YTTV is cheap and easy and enjoyable. But the fantasy is there. lol.
> 
> btw DISH said they see themselves eventually merging with DirectTV on their conference call. The observation from Ergen being the environment has changed that such a merger today would be approved. And obviously benefit from the scale.


No, on top of the stated price for the programming package (e.g. $60/mo for AT120), there is also a DVR fee. If you qualify for and can get their top-of-the-line Hopper 3 (16 tuners, 2 TB), the DVR service fee is $10/mo. If you get the lesser Hopper Duo (only 2 tuners, 500 GB), the fee is $5/mo. Whatever kind of receiver you get for the first TV is included in the programming package price. Each additional receiver is $5/mo. But based on DISH's fine print, it looks like maybe the promo price for the first 2 years includes a $5/mo DVR service credit. So going with a Hopper Duo on 1 TV adds nothing to the package cost; upgrading to a Hopper 3 adds $5/mo. But that $5/mo credit will roll off after the first 2 yrs, I think.

There is still the 2-yr contract for new subs. I believe your prices are frozen for the whole 2 years though, before going up to the then-prevailing regular price. Right now, the regular price for the AT120 package is $68/mo, just $8 more than the new subscriber rate for the first two years.

My parents have had DISH for years. It's been OK for them, although they do have occasional rain fade and have had problems with the hardware. They separately get the lowest tier broadband from Comcast. They'd like to pay less overall. (What cable TV subscriber wouldn't?) Strongly considering switching to AT&T Fiber + AT&T TV this spring.

Taxes and fees aren't "gotchas" as best I can tell with DISH. [EDIT: See below.] Their bill shows a 5 cent FCC Regulatory Fee plus $2.08 in state and local sales tax. They're under an older pricing and hardware regime (pre-Hopper). Each of their 2 TVs has a standalone 2-tuner HD DVR (not a main whole-home DVR with an extender box on the second TV, as is now done with Hopper+ Joey). They pay a total of $17 for the two boxes with DVR service, on top of the regular price for the AT250 package. But the equpment/DVR pricing for you would be as I outlined above.

EDIT: Actually, their bill shows that they pay an additional $12/mo for local channels. Apparently DISH does not include the cost of locals in their advertised regular package prices. So it's not clear to me if that $60 new subscriber promo rate for AT120 includes locals or if it would really be $72/mo. Actually, based on further inspection, it looks like the advertised price DOES include locals.

So, best I can tell, getting AT120, with locals and a Hopper Duo DVR would stay at $60/mo plus taxes for the full 2-yr contract term. Based on current pricing, that package would jump up by $25 after 2 years (add $12 for locals, add $8 for regular pricing on AT120, add $5 for basic DVR service). Add $5 to upgrade from a Hopper Duo to a Hopper 3 on your main TV. Add $5 for each Joey on additional TVs.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

JLV03 said:


> Fitzytv has been forced to shut down their TVE logins. Will Channels DVR be the next target?
> 
> FitzyTV DVR Agrees to Stop Offering TV Everywhere Functionality As It Faces a 'Legal Dispute' - Cord Cutters News


There are some differences. The Fitzy folks were storing content on their own servers, they were not respecting geographic restrictions, and their client apps were doing the TVE authentication.

Channels stores content on an individual customer's server, it includes access to the appropriate regional feeds, and because the server software does the authentication there's nothing in the client apps to potentially violate Apple/Google app rules by themselves.

Having said that, I think the Channels developers are wisely keeping their heads down and trying not to get noticed while the lawyers' appetite is whetted, so we've seen no comments from them thus far.


----------



## ncted

trip1eX said:


> DISH pricing is looking attractive.
> 
> I chose the $60/mo package and went to the next to last page and the dvr and a 2nd tv are included in the price. $5/mo discount for autopay. $5/mo per each tv above the 2nd. I don't even see a contract mentioned. Pricing is good for at least 2 years. None of this goes way up in 1 year. You also get a $150 debit card.
> 
> I didn't want to do the credit check, but that is the most streamlined I've seen pricing. Showed no fees. Is this too good to be true? Is the last page going to have a ton of fees and taxes. I am curious to know what the final price is. I always wanted to try satellite but never did. I doubt I ever will. Don't want to have to go on the roof and get the snow off the satellite. Nevermind my house is surrounded by tall trees. YTTV is cheap and easy and enjoyable. But the fantasy is there. lol.
> 
> btw DISH said they see themselves eventually merging with DirectTV on their conference call. The observation from Ergen being the environment has changed that such a merger today would be approved. And obviously benefit from the scale.


I just cancelled DISH last fall. If you are looking for a cable replacement, it is a pretty good option. That said, it no longer provided the majority of the content we watched, so it didn't make sense for us. I wish I could get my parents to switch to DISH. Their DirecTV bill is outrageous.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> No, on top of the stated price for the programming package (e.g. $60/mo for AT120), there is also a DVR fee. If you qualify for and can get their top-of-the-line Hopper 3 (16 tuners, 2 TB), the DVR service fee is $10/mo. If you get the lesser Hopper Duo (only 2 tuners, 500 GB), the fee is $5/mo. Whatever kind of receiver you get for the first TV is included in the programming package price. Each additional receiver is $5/mo. But based on DISH's fine print, it looks like maybe the promo price for the first 2 years includes a $5/mo DVR service credit. So going with a Hopper Duo on 1 TV adds nothing to the package cost; upgrading to a Hopper 3 adds $5/mo. But that $5/mo credit will roll off after the first 2 yrs, I think.
> 
> There is still the 2-yr contract for new subs. I believe your prices are frozen for the whole 2 years though, before going up to the then-prevailing regular price. Right now, the regular price for the AT120 package is $68/mo, just $8 more than the new subscriber rate for the first two years.
> 
> My parents have had DISH for years. It's been OK for them, although they do have occasional rain fade and have had problems with the hardware. They separately get the lowest tier broadband from Comcast. They'd like to pay less overall. (What cable TV subscriber wouldn't?) Strongly considering switching to AT&T Fiber + AT&T TV this spring.
> 
> Taxes and fees aren't "gotchas" as best I can tell with DISH. [EDIT: See below.] Their bill shows a 5 cent FCC Regulatory Fee plus $2.08 in state and local sales tax. They're under an older pricing and hardware regime (pre-Hopper). Each of their 2 TVs has a standalone 2-tuner HD DVR (not a main whole-home DVR with an extender box on the second TV, as is now done with Hopper+ Joey). They pay a total of $17 for the two boxes with DVR service, on top of the regular price for the AT250 package. But the equpment/DVR pricing for you would be as I outlined above.
> 
> EDIT: Actually, their bill shows that they pay an additional $12/mo for local channels. Apparently DISH does not include the cost of locals in their advertised regular package prices. So it's not clear to me if that $60 new subscriber promo rate for AT120 includes locals or if it would really be $72/mo. Actually, based on further inspection, it looks like the advertised price DOES include locals.
> 
> So, best I can tell, getting AT120, with locals and a Hopper Duo DVR would stay at $60/mo plus taxes for the full 2-yr contract term. Based on current pricing, that package would jump up by $25 after 2 years (add $12 for locals, add $8 for regular pricing on AT120, add $5 for basic DVR service). Add $5 to upgrade from a Hopper Duo to a Hopper 3 on your main TV. Add $5 for each Joey on additional TVs.


that explains why 1 of the 3 times I was looking at pricing last night that I was charged for the dvr. I take it that was the Hopper 3. And sounds like the same shenanigans are still present. And yeah locals looked to be present because on the 1 pricing summary I got where they charged for the dvr they had the locals at $12 and the rest at $48.

in their conference call they mentioned the new customer acquisition cost and it was like $850. I guess that's why Charlie saw the writing on the video satellite customer wall years ago and is now all about building out a wireless network. And they think they have some advantage in not having to upgrade an old legacy wireless network like the incumbents.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> that explains why 1 of the 3 times I was looking at pricing last night that I was charged for the dvr. I take it that was the Hopper 3. And sounds like the same shenanigans are still present. And yeah locals looked to be present because on the 1 pricing summary I got where they charged for the dvr they had the locals at $12 and the rest at $48.
> 
> in their conference call they mentioned the new customer acquisition cost and it was like $850. I guess that's why Charlie saw the writing on the video satellite customer wall years ago and is now all about building out a wireless network. And they think they have some advantage in not having to upgrade an old legacy wireless network like the incumbents.


Yeah, new customer acquisition costs are high with satellite TV. A lot of that is the professional installation for which they don't charge. It's no wonder both DISH and DTV require a 2-yr contract for new customers. I'm actually a little surprised that DISH can offer their packages at the prices they do for the first 24 months. Yes, they do jump up at the end of that period. But you've gotten a decent deal for two years. (Although it should be noted that DISH doesn't offer any of those Fox Sports RSNs any more in any of their packages.)

The situation with DTV recently has been to offer more aggressive discounts than DISH does (relative to their regular prices) but just do it in the first year. In the second year of your contract, prices jump way up to the regular prices. We'll see if they take a similar tact with AT&T TV when it launches nationwide (probably next Wed., 2/26) or if they wisely choose a different scenario. AT&T's CEO has said over and over that, because the customer acquisition costs will be so much lower for AT&T TV than for DTV (~50% lower), they'll be able to pass along some of those savings in the form of lower pricing. And given that AT&T TV will be the immediate direct replacement for Uverse TV, and optionally bundled with AT&T Fiber, both of which only require a 1-yr contract, it seems likely to me that AT&T TV will also come with a 1-yr, rather than 2-yr contract. I also continue to think that we'll see AT&T TV offer different channel packages than DTV has offered, with HBO Max automatically included.

That said, neither DISH nor likely AT&T TV will offer you as good an overall deal as you get now with YTTV for $50. Although, as I've said before, I expect that price will rise to $60 before long.


----------



## jcthorne

After better than 20 years, today was the day most of our Tivo whole home system was taken down and put up for sale.

Running a Channels DVR server, a Plex server and an Nvidia Shield on each TV. Channels has been my main source of recorded programming for about 3 months now and a couple weeks ago got the wife using it. I only have 1 tv left that is on an old Roamio and it will be decommissioned as soon as I can buy one more Shield and some network hardware to support it.

Its been a great run. Things change.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Regardless of your or my or any other random person's feelings about Discovery-owned programming, they are anything but irrelevant at this point. Last August, per Nielsen ratings, they were the number 1 media company for female viewers nationwide.
> 
> Discovery tops among female viewers in US | Ratings/Measurement | News | Rapid TV News


It sounds like HGTV is being used for a lot of background noise. They will keep some people from cutting the cord, but eventually they will realize that $100/mo is not worth it for the some crappy Discovery channels. It's sad as Discovery used to be the crown jewel of cable. They have fallen so far.


----------



## chiguy50

Bigg said:


> It sounds like HGTV is being used for a lot of background noise. They will keep some people from cutting the cord, but eventually they will realize that $100/mo is not worth it for the some crappy Discovery channels. It's sad as Discovery used to be the crown jewel of cable. They have fallen so far.


I agree, however . . . as H.L. Mencken wrote many years ago:

"No one in this world, so far as I know - and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me - has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people."


----------



## slowbiscuit

Definitely true given today's political realities, and the main reason why we're supposed to be a republic instead of a democracy.


----------



## Rey

Bigg said:


> It sounds like HGTV is being used for a lot of background noise. They will keep some people from cutting the cord, but eventually they will realize that $100/mo is not worth it for the some crappy Discovery channels. It's sad as Discovery used to be the crown jewel of cable. They have fallen so far.


There is truth to this. My wife hasn't worked in months due to health issues. As she cooks she likes to hear channels like HGTV in the background.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

HD HomeRun has launched a Kickstarter for an ATSC 3.0 compatible Quatro 4K: https://www.kickstarter.com/p....hdhomerun-atsc-30


----------



## wizwor

Big meh from me on this. HDHR is still too 'hobby' to replace a set top box. There will be other router/tuner (tablo) devices to get 4k to my tv. Still want a monthly fee.


----------



## aaronwt

But they said it was for ATSC 3.0. OTA Stations with ATSC 3.0 plan on using 1080P with HDR, not 2160P. So there will be very little content using ATSC 3.0 that is UHD.


----------



## aaronwt

Pokemon_Dad said:


> HD HomeRun has launched a Kickstarter for an ATSC 3.0 compatible Quatro 4K: https://www.kickstarter.com/p....hdhomerun-atsc-30


That sounds interesting. I could dedicate my HD Plex machine to this. But I would rather wait for my area to actually start broadcasting with ATSC 3.0 first. And then also wait to see what they actually have. But if TiVo doesn't have an add on option for ATSC 3.0 with their current products, then I might stop using TiVo in favor of the HD home run ATSC 3.0. Or something like it.

It would be like going back in time to 2001 for me. When I first started recording HD content from OTA with my two PC HiPix cards.


----------



## mdavej

aaronwt said:


> That sounds interesting. I could dedicate my HD Plex machine to this. But I would rather wait for my area to actually start broadcasting with ATSC 3.0 first. And then also wait to see what they actually have. But if TiVo doesn't have an add on option for ATSC 3.0 with their current products, then I might stop using TiVo in favor of the HD home run ATSC 3.0. Or something like it.
> 
> It would be like going back in time to 2001 for me. When I first started recording HD content from OTA with my two PC HiPix cards.


May as well set you money on fire. SD has a terrible track record. Kickstarter for their DVR software dragged on for years, and what was ultimately delivered was complete garbage. They also never released their 6 tuner HomeRun after showing prototypes at CES three years in a row.

One thing they are really good at is vaporware, almost as good as Tivo in that regard.

I hear you about going back in time. All these server based solutions are 20 years old and a PITA.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Well it's going to be a big bucks bonfire then. They just blew past $100,000 and are approaching 500 backers. The last $50K and 250 backers showed up since I pledged $199 about an hour ago. 

Tuners are their core competency, plus an OTA tuner doesn't need to be submitted for CableCARD consortium approval every time the hardware has to be redesigned when chips are discontinued, so I don't have much worry about them delivering on this. As for a DVR, I'm all in on Channels.


----------



## tivolocity

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Well it's going to be a big bucks bonfire then. They just blew past $100,000 and are approaching 500 backers. The last $50K and 250 backers showed up since I pledged $199 about an hour ago.
> 
> Tuners are their core competency, plus an OTA tuner doesn't need to be submitted for CableCARD consortium approval every time the hardware has to be redesigned when chips are discontinued, so I don't have much worry about them delivering on this. As for a DVR, I'm all in on Channels.


Agreed. For SD, an OTA tuner should have a fairly reliable release date. Could Coronavirus have an effect, sure.
Also agree on Channels DVR. It's a great product. I wish it didn't have a subscription. But, it's worth it to me.


----------



## Saturn_V

If the KS price is $200, I'd hate to see what the final MSRP on the HDHR5-4K is. My first HDHR tuner cost me $85.00 in 2010, and I upgraded to an HDHR Extend in 2015 for $120.00. 

And I picked up a Fire Recast 18 months ago for $220.00- which I'm using way more than the HDHR/PLEX DVR. 

I may wait to see what Amazon does with ATSC 3.


----------



## aaronwt

Probably pricey. My first HD tuner in 2001 was $400. HiPix DTV-200. By 2010 HD tuner prices had come way down. But then it's always more expensive to be an early adopter.


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## Pokemon_Dad

Given that the only options out there right now are one-tuner models for about $900 and up, anywhere south of that for two 3.0 tuners (plus two 1.0 tuners) would be a deal at this time, and the $199 KS price would be a steal.

Their FAQ on why there's only two 3.0 tuners mentions that ATSC 3.0 hardware is expensive, so they limited it to two and two to keep the price down. But they also say some broadcasters will share channels, because 3.0 tuners can handle four concurrent signals, so I suppose that improves the cost/value ratio some.

I'm more worried about the privacy issues behind ATSC 3.0. That's a big topic.


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## aaronwt

What privacy issues are there?


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## kpeters59

The new TV signal will have IP information embedded in them that could potentially get past your TV out to the internet.

-KP


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## Pokemon_Dad

Now over $200K and almost 1,000 backers! Their goal was only $50K.



aaronwt said:


> What privacy issues are there?


All the issues of internet "behavioral targeting" and other tracking technologies, with even fewer industry standards, best practices, or government regulations.


----------



## mdavej

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Well it's going to be a big bucks bonfire then. They just blew past $100,000 and are approaching 500 backers....





Pokemon_Dad said:


> Now over $200K and almost 1,000 backers! Their goal was only $50K.


Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

This is the third time. Bernie Madoff also raised a lot of money. I'm not saying this is equivalent. But I am saying people will fall for their promises without knowing their miserable track record.

I was in the Channels DVR Kickstarter and have a free subscription to this day. I ran it for 5 minutes then deleted it.

Be prepared for many delays, excuses and much disappointment.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
> 
> This is the third time. Bernie Madoff also raised a lot of money. I'm not saying this is equivalent. But I am saying people will fall for their promises without knowing their miserable track record.
> 
> I was in the Channels DVR Kickstarter and have a free subscription to this day. I ran it for 5 minutes then deleted it.
> 
> Be prepared for many delays, excuses and much disappointment.


This is their second Kickstarter and they did deliver on the first one, even if we don't think much of that DVR design. As I posted above, this one is way more inside their core competency than that, and also much less subject to outside influences than the Prime 6.

Besides, when I join one of these campaigns on Kickstarter, Indiegogo, etc. I'm prepared to lose the money entirely, and in my experience this one is far far more likely to succeed than most. In this case I fully expect to get what I paid for in a reasonable amount of time.

This first production run will likely include beta firmware or something very close to it too, but I know what I'm signing up for.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Saturn_V said:


> If the KS price is $200, I'd hate to see what the final MSRP on the HDHR5-4K is. My first HDHR tuner cost me $85.00 in 2010, and I upgraded to an HDHR Extend in 2015 for $120.00.
> 
> And I picked up a Fire Recast 18 months ago for $220.00- which I'm using way more than the HDHR/PLEX DVR.
> 
> I may wait to see what Amazon does with ATSC 3.


The MSRP will be $199 when it's released. SD already has the unit developed and ready to go. I think the kickstarter campaign was mostly designed to generate pre-orders so they could determine how many units they'll need to produce initially. The first units are supposed to start being shipped in June 2020.


----------



## BillyClyde

mdavej said:


> .....I was in the Channels DVR Kickstarter and have a free subscription to this day. I ran it for 5 minutes then deleted it........


Channels DVR has absolutely no affiliation with Silicon Dust other than it uses their network DVRs to bring in OTA or cable signals. They're two completely separate companies.

I believe you're speaking of SD's own DVR software, which is not very good.


----------



## mdavej

BillyClyde said:


> Channels DVR has absolutely no affiliation with Silicon Dust other than it uses their network DVRs to bring in OTA or cable signals. They're two completely separate companies.
> 
> I believe you're speaking of SD's own DVR software, which is not very good.


Thanks for the correction. Someone else called it Channels, so I followed suit. Yes, I'm speaking of SD's DVR called "HDHomeRun DVR".

Channels is excellent. Google Live Channels is very good. HDHomeRun DVR is terrible.


----------



## wizwor

mdavej said:


> May as well set you money on fire. SD has a terrible track record. Kickstarter for their DVR software dragged on for years, and what was ultimately delivered was complete garbage. They also never released their 6 tuner HomeRun after showing prototypes at CES three years in a row.
> 
> One thing they are really good at is vaporware, almost as good as Tivo in that regard.
> 
> I hear you about going back in time. All these server based solutions are 20 years old and a PITA.


They also built the dual tuner DVR that put the Simple TV folks out of business.


----------



## wizwor

mr.unnatural said:


> The MSRP will be $199 when it's released. SD already has the unit developed and ready to go. I think the kickstarter campaign was mostly designed to generate pre-orders so they could determine how many units they'll need to produce initially. The first units are supposed to start being shipped in June 2020.


and publicity/awareness.


----------



## hahathatsfunny

I haven't read through the numerous pages of this thread, but read some positive threads for Tablo. But what's everyone's current thoughts on Tablo? Is channel changing slow?

In addition to being a FIOS customer, I currently have an over the air antenna and AirTV player, that I bought a couple years ago, for other TVs in my house. I'm looking to replace that as I have a few dislikes with watching my over the air locals on Sling including
-Sling app/AirTV every once in a while thinks it detects a new hard-drive and wants to reformat.
-Sometimes after that reformat, the hard-drive is not recognized when it just worked before
-Sling app has a My Channels ability for favorite channels, but defaults to All Channels. Channels are scattered all over the place, with the major networks displayed first, some free Sling and then rest of locals last. Difficulty hiding channels/adding channels.
-Tuner is fickle thinking more than two streams are being used when they are not.
-FF isn't great. I realize that Sling/AirTV are very primitive and it's a major downgrade in someways relative to some of the old TiVos that I used to own that would work with OTA and cable.
-I only subscribe to Epix on Sling and could eliminate the AirTV portion, if I went with another over the air source.

I called Tablo this morning and got a well informed agent from Canada, who talked about the different products. I'm leaning to buy a 4 stream supported device.

In contrast, when I call TiVo and it happened today, it's someone from the Phillipines who can't explain the TiVo Stream 4k very well and pitches its streaming ability to view Netflix. I was even transferred to technical support and they couldn't answer TiVo 4k Stream questions very well. When I inquire about the out of stock TiVo Mini Vox, it's suggested to buy more TiVos. $$$. I suppose I'm old fashioned but like buying a product with customer service.


----------



## tapokata

I own two Tablo's, Two TiVo Bolts (only one is currently active) and a FireTV Recast.

Tablo is a very good solution for OTA recording. They have apps that actually work for nearly all of the major streaming box platforms, as well as versions for some smart TV brands (LG, etc). The guide service works just fine, setting up recordings is pretty easy- not quite one button setup on Tivo, but not difficult. External storage is roll your own of whatever size/flavor USB drive that you choose to attach.

Unlike TiVo, which wants to be the center of the television universe, Tablo is more like a planet. You open an app to view and use the Tablo DVR services. If you want to stream Netflix or Amazon prime, you go to another app. There is no integration of the Tablo guide with OTT packages such as SlingTV or Hulu.

The Recast, in this space analogy, is more like the moon. It's tied to a specific planet (that is, it only works with FireTV devices), however the Recast guide can be enhanced by adding in streaming services such as Sling or HBO channels from Amazon. Recording setup is a breeze, using the integrated Alexa voice service (talk into the remote on your fireTV).

Tablo and TiVo both transcode the signal received from the antenna to a format that can be streamed to the appropriate device. Where and how that happens makes a difference. Tablo does the transcoding at the time of recording- what is recorded is the transcoded format. A four tuner Tablo can record (or transcode live on the fly) on all four tuners, meaning that four TV's could watch different almost live channel sources at the same time. I think something like six recorded streams can be accessed and played back at the same time. 

The Recast records the native broadcast MPEG format, and transcodes these on output. The hardware power required is substantial, and ties up a tuner in the process, so only two televisions can access live or DVR recorded material at the same time- even if the Recast has four tuners.

The output resolution can be varied from the Tablo, although changing that can change the file size, as well as cause buffering issues on wifi. Recast is fixed at 720p/60. The de-interlacing programs used in the transcode differ dramatically. Tablo has challenges with Standard Definition video, leaving lots of combing artifacts. A diagonal line will look jagged, not smooth. Those of us who notice this can never un-see this defect again. Those who don't notice it are just wrong, and should be shunned. The Recast doesn't suffer as much from this defect, although from time to time....

Many folks will say that all they watch are HD quality programs from the local network affiliates. Great. But you will find that nearly all of the sub-channels in your market are SD video (and some with really bad bit rates), so the video issues may be a problem.

All of that said, Tablo is a pretty good alternative, but I prefer the Recast. The tuners are a skosh better than the Tablo (and both are light years better than what Tivo has in the Bolt). Tablo does offer automated commercial skip (for an added price), but I'm used to using the shuttle commands on the FireTV remote. Neither of them currently pre-roll advertising, although I got to believe that the folks at Amazon have considered doing so. If I had a large family watching multiple televisions, Tablo would be the choice.

The wife still prefers the Bolt, but the day that if fails... and the second unit currently in storage fails... I'll have her convinced to move to the Recast.


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## ncted

I found the Tablo to work better than the AirTV, and the Recast to work better than both of those. That said, I have had issues with the Recast recording what it says it will in the past. I don't know if a bunch of factory resets fixed the issue or a firmware update did, but I have not see that problem in a while now. That said, I am more or less giving up on OTA. I lost CBS in the repack when they moved to VHF8, and ABC is moving to VHF9 in a month. I am using YouTubeTV now. It is more than I want to pay, but there are no headaches. It just works as long as I have internet access. As the Recast didn't work when my internet was down, there was not big benefit to having OTA for me. YMMV depending on your home network setup.


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## HerronScott

tapokata said:


> Tablo and TiVo both transcode the signal received from the antenna to a format that can be streamed to the appropriate device.


I think you meant to say Tablo and Recast transcode the signal.

Scott


----------



## trip1eX

I've been looking at all of these OTA solutions. I'm not feeling the love with any of the 3 solutions- Recast, Tablo and Tivo.


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## Lurker1

trip1eX said:


> I've been looking at all of these OTA solutions. I'm not feeling the love with any of the 3 solutions- Recast, Tablo and Tivo.


If you want a very cheap, bare-bones OTA recorder:
https://www.amazon.com/Mediasonic-HomeWorx-Converter-Recording-HW-150PVR/dp/B00I2ZBD1U


----------



## wizwor

Pretty spot on comparison of the three devices. I own all three as well. I'm not moving from one platform to another or comparing the three. I am simply building a good experience for my home. The fact that I am using and plan to continue using more than one (OTA) DVR/streaming solution probably distinguishes me from most of the posters on this forum.

I bought my Recast so I could watch television on my seven Echo Show devices. On these small screens, it looks great. When Amazon was selling the 4k Sticks for $25, I put one on each television. Most of my televisions have a Roamio/OTA on top and a FTV Stick attached.

Two are not close to ethernet or coax, so they rely on the Recast/Stick solution. OTA plus Pluto integrated into a single guide is a great experience.



tapokata said:


> I own two Tablo's, Two TiVo Bolts (only one is currently active) and a FireTV Recast.
> 
> Tablo is a very good solution for OTA recording. They have apps that actually work for nearly all of the major streaming box platforms, as well as versions for some smart TV brands (LG, etc). The guide service works just fine, setting up recordings is pretty easy- not quite one button setup on Tivo, but not difficult. External storage is roll your own of whatever size/flavor USB drive that you choose to attach.
> 
> Unlike TiVo, which wants to be the center of the television universe, Tablo is more like a planet. You open an app to view and use the Tablo DVR services. If you want to stream Netflix or Amazon prime, you go to another app. There is no integration of the Tablo guide with OTT packages such as SlingTV or Hulu.
> 
> The Recast, in this space analogy, is more like the moon. It's tied to a specific planet (that is, it only works with FireTV devices), however the Recast guide can be enhanced by adding in streaming services such as Sling or HBO channels from Amazon. Recording setup is a breeze, using the integrated Alexa voice service (talk into the remote on your fireTV).
> 
> Tablo and TiVo both transcode the signal received from the antenna to a format that can be streamed to the appropriate device. Where and how that happens makes a difference. Tablo does the transcoding at the time of recording- what is recorded is the transcoded format. A four tuner Tablo can record (or transcode live on the fly) on all four tuners, meaning that four TV's could watch different almost live channel sources at the same time. I think something like six recorded streams can be accessed and played back at the same time.
> 
> The Recast records the native broadcast MPEG format, and transcodes these on output. The hardware power required is substantial, and ties up a tuner in the process, so only two televisions can access live or DVR recorded material at the same time- even if the Recast has four tuners.
> 
> The output resolution can be varied from the Tablo, although changing that can change the file size, as well as cause buffering issues on wifi. Recast is fixed at 720p/60. The de-interlacing programs used in the transcode differ dramatically. Tablo has challenges with Standard Definition video, leaving lots of combing artifacts. A diagonal line will look jagged, not smooth. Those of us who notice this can never un-see this defect again. Those who don't notice it are just wrong, and should be shunned. The Recast doesn't suffer as much from this defect, although from time to time....
> 
> Many folks will say that all they watch are HD quality programs from the local network affiliates. Great. But you will find that nearly all of the sub-channels in your market are SD video (and some with really bad bit rates), so the video issues may be a problem.
> 
> All of that said, Tablo is a pretty good alternative, but I prefer the Recast. The tuners are a skosh better than the Tablo (and both are light years better than what Tivo has in the Bolt). Tablo does offer automated commercial skip (for an added price), but I'm used to using the shuttle commands on the FireTV remote. Neither of them currently pre-roll advertising, although I got to believe that the folks at Amazon have considered doing so. If I had a large family watching multiple televisions, Tablo would be the choice.
> 
> The wife still prefers the Bolt, but the day that if fails... and the second unit currently in storage fails... I'll have her convinced to move to the Recast.


----------



## wizwor

Lurker1 said:


> If you want a very cheap, bare-bones OTA recorder:
> https://www.amazon.com/Mediasonic-HomeWorx-Converter-Recording-HW-150PVR/dp/B00I2ZBD1U


Do you still have to initiate a buffer before you can rewind? I'm OK with bare-bones, but older boxes were counterintuitive.


----------



## ElT60

HerronScott said:


> Tablo and TiVo both transcode the signal received from the antenna to a format that can be streamed to the appropriate device.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you meant to say Tablo and Recast transcode the signal.
Click to expand...

 The Tivo will also if it does any "streaming" to a non Tivo device. But yes , the antenna tuner inside a Tivo DVR doesn't need to jump onto the local network to get to the TV screen; so no need to transcode. Mini's get shipped the recorded data but that tends to soak more more local networking resources ( and why were not wireless boxes for long while).

[ I think there was hope that if Recast , or future version, had access to a faster wireless local network that it would perhaps not transcode down (or at least transcode at highest possible picture quality). But the transcode down is meant to deal with older WiFi networks and more limited memory clients. ]


----------



## mdavej

Lurker1 said:


> If you want a very cheap, bare-bones OTA recorder:
> https://www.amazon.com/Mediasonic-HomeWorx-Converter-Recording-HW-150PVR/dp/B00I2ZBD1U


If you miss your VCR, you'll love the HomeWorx. Barely any guide, set recordings with timers, no titles on recordings, single tuner. It's like going back to the 70's but without the flashing clock.

If @trip1eX has no love for Recast, Tablo, etc., I don't think he'll be enamored with HomeWorx unless he's really, really nostalgic.

What I like about Recast is there's just one box, then any of my existing Fire TVs connect automatically. No separate tuner, NAS/HDD or subscription required. So it's like having my old Tivo OTA plus access to ALL the streaming apps I can imagine.


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## jebbbz

Re: Tablo v Recast

If price is a consideration the Recast wins as lifetime guide service is included, especially if you catch a sale on Amazon. The Tablo costs $150 for lifetime ($5 per month or $50 per year). 

If you are inclined to archive or backup shows the Tablo wins as user-written software makes it easy to copy shows to a networked PC giving you, effectively, unlimited storage (although you must use an app to watch as the Tablo will not play from networked storage). There is no easy way to do this with the Recast.

If you are usually in front of your TV the Recast is fine but with the Tablo you can do pretty much everything from a phone, tablet or your PC -- watching, managing recordings, scheduling on the spur of the moment or looking through every show coming up in the next two weeks and planning ahead.

I find channel changing faster on the Recast but acceptable on the Tablo. If you have a four tuner Tablo and cycle among up to four channels things are very fast as the Tablo keeps buffering all of them as long as you don't wait too long (20-30 minutes?) before checking each one.


----------



## hahathatsfunny

I ended up purchasing a Recast from my local Best Buy today. Ordered in the morning and it was ready in two hours for curbside. I wanted to wait until I got my new rooftop antenna put up before buying a new DVR, but just went ahead with the antenna I already have set up. And, interestingly enough, the Best Buy stores in my area don't have the Firesticks stocked, and it takes a week to ship to store. So, I bought an accompanying Firestick from my local Target.

Anyways, got everything set up. Since I'm familiar setting up the AirTV (requires involvement of my mobile phone along the way, and switching the cell phone network for a minute to the air DVR network), it wasn't difficult learning setting up the Recast, although if I never had that experience, it might have gotten stuck somewhere and frustrated. But, it was fewer steps and easier doing a channel scan on Recast than with AirTV.

So far I'm very impressed. The tuner has an amplifier that helps a few stations that come in weak. When I tune to those weak stations, it gives a weak signal message, but I can view it. The AirTV wouldn't pick them up. I also re-subscribed to Philo to see the integration. I also have Epix and the free channels on Sling, so added those too and Pluto. I noticed that it doesn't integrate all the Pluto channels, including the Pluto Dash music streams but that's ok.

I like that the use of Favorites and ability to Hide channels. With Sling and AirTV, it's tedious to hide channels (must do a re-scan), and it defaults to All Channels over Favorites each time I open the Sling app.

The Firecast over the air with Philo and Sling and Pluto kind of reminds me of my old TiVo that supported cable and satellite together. I wish TiVo went in this direction than in TiVo Stream 4k.

I also like the Firestick better than the Roku. Faster scrolls through the grid, and slicker.

But, I like the Roku Channel though as it has some free content, such as first four seasons of _Bewitched_ and other series, with just minimal ads in the middle of the episode. I think there is a hack to get that on the Firestick and I could always use my other HDMI that is for DVD occasionally for that Roku device. The somewhat long process is adding all the apps that were on my Roku to Firestick.


----------



## wizwor

^^^ The Roku Channel comes to the Amazon Fire TV &#8230;sort of

_About a year ago, Roku launched The Roku Channel, which is an ad-support collection of movies, TV shows, and live news that is available for free on Roku devices. The channel has been quite popular, so Roku made it available on the web a month ago. In doing so, they've inadvertently also made it available to all Amazon Fire TV devices thanks to the Silk Browser. The web interface for The Roku Channel works so well through the Silk Browser that I've released a Bookmarker app for The Roku Channel, to make accessing it through Fire TV devices that much easier. _

_To load The Roku Channel on a Fire TV device, you can either enter therokuchannel.roku.com manually into the Silk Browser or install my free Bookmarker for The Roku Channel app to get one-click access from the Fire TV home screen. The first time you load the page, you'll need to allow protected content playback from a popup that appears. You'll then be able to freely browse the available content._​


----------



## hahathatsfunny

Just an update:
I had to turn off the WiFi in my house yesterday night. My sister's holistic doctor is against WiFi and advises to turn it off at night.

Anyways, I turned it back on in the morning, and I'm having Recast connection issues. (Never had this issue with AirTV, Sling and Roku).

I can tune into the Philo channels, but for all the over the air, I get

Connection lost
The connection between your FireTV and streaming source has been lost.

It's kind of a pain now troubleshooting this issue. I might have to go wired and keep all in same room for router, Recast box and antenna connection long term.


----------



## wizwor

Power off your router, Recast, fire tv devices (including Echo Shows), and any other network equipment you have
Power on the router and wait for it to be in the ready state
Power on any other networking equipment you may have and wait for these to be in the ready state
Power on the Recast and wait for it to be in the ready state
Power on your fire tv devices
Stop listening to your sister's holistic doctor


----------



## hahathatsfunny

wizwor said:


> Power off your router, Recast, fire tv devices (including Echo Shows), and any other network equipment you have
> Power on the router and wait for it to be in the ready state
> Power on any other networking equipment you may have and wait for these to be in the ready state
> Power on the Recast and wait for it to be in the ready state
> Power on your fire tv devices
> Stop listening to your sister's holistic doctor


I got it back up but it was a lot of redoing the setup from yesterday, including associating back to the network.

One other setback: I have noticed the picture quality of the local channels looks degraded.

I got the 4 tuner 1 TB model. It's decoding weak signal in my area stations from Bethlehem/Allentown (WLVT, WFMZ, WBPH) that the AirTV wouldn't do making it viewable streaming, but the local stations that come in strong out of Philadelphia appear to have lower resolution, and are less sharp.

I know it's not equal comparison right now, but between my Input1(Roku and FuboTV app on) and Input2(Firecast and local channel viewing via Recast), the local channels that I get on both, and can compare the same show, and on Fubo it's sharp/higher res. The locals viewed via AirTV/Roku, my previous setup, had higher resolution.

But, I'll have to wait until I get my setup redone so that the fire stick is closer to the recast dvr.


----------



## trip1eX

hahathatsfunny said:


> I had to turn off the WiFi in my house yesterday night. My sister's holistic doctor is against WiFi and advises to turn it off at night.


I thought that was only Better Call Saul.


----------



## trip1eX

mdavej said:


> If you miss your VCR, you'll love the HomeWorx. Barely any guide, set recordings with timers, no titles on recordings, single tuner. It's like going back to the 70's but without the flashing clock.
> 
> If @trip1eX has no love for Recast, Tablo, etc., I don't think he'll be enamored with HomeWorx unless he's really, really nostalgic.
> 
> What I like about Recast is there's just one box, then any of my existing Fire TVs connect automatically. No separate tuner, NAS/HDD or subscription required. So it's like having my old Tivo OTA plus access to ALL the streaming apps I can imagine.


yep that had even worse reviews. And looks like too much work.

I might just punt.

Can you record 2 NFL games at once with the Recast and then chase watch one of them at the same time?


----------



## Bigg

hahathatsfunny said:


> Just an update:
> I had to turn off the WiFi in my house yesterday night. My sister's holistic doctor is against WiFi and advises to turn it off at night.


Tell her that's not going to happen and leave it on.


----------



## mdavej

trip1eX said:


> Can you record 2 NFL games at once with the Recast and then chase watch one of them at the same time?


I think so. Mine has 4 tuners, so can record 4 things at once. No problem chasing.

Gotta go watch recording 15A0095839021B on my Homeworx now, or was it 43R720891109587. Ah, screw it, I'll just watch it on Youtube TV.


----------



## trip1eX

mdavej said:


> I think so. Mine has 4 tuners, so can record 4 things at once. No problem chasing.
> 
> Gotta go watch recording 15A0095839021B on my Homeworx now, or was it 43R720891109587. Ah, screw it, I'll just watch it on Youtube TV.


lol I wouldn't be able to put up with that stuff.

The tuner thing on Recast, it's different from Tivo though or not? I thought I read something where if you watch a recording it takes up a tuner.


----------



## mdavej

trip1eX said:


> lol I wouldn't be able to put up with that stuff.
> 
> The tuner thing on Recast, it's different from Tivo though or not? I thought I read something where if you watch a recording it takes up a tuner.


My understanding is you can record up to 4 but only watch up to 2 streams (live or recorded doesn't matter). But like Tivo, watching live takes a tuner. So if you're watching 2 live, you should have 2 more tuners left for recording. Since I'm the only person in my house who uses it, I've never pushed it to the limit.

They also sell a 2 tuner model, so watching 2 live on that one, you couldn't record on a third.

Now that YTTV has PBS, my Recast is relegated to the rare sub-channel recording that I can't do on YTTV. In other words, I barely use it at all anymore. But if I got laid off, I could drop YTTV and go back to just the Recast.

I've been meaning to give the Homeworx to Goodwill, but I would feel bad for the person who ended up with it.


----------



## pfiagra

I understand the Recast only plays back through the FireTV or Firestick at 780p max. Is that correct?

For those that have a Recast, what is the picture like using a Firestick 4K on a decent sized (55” or 65”) TV?

Can I assume it will look like any other 780p stream on the same setup?


----------



## mdavej

pfiagra said:


> I understand the Recast only plays back through the FireTV or Firestick at 780p max. Is that correct?
> 
> For those that have a Recast, what is the picture like using a Firestick 4K on a decent sized (55" or 65") TV?
> 
> Can I assume it will look like any other 780p stream on the same setup?


Yes, 720p max on playback. Looks decent on my 55" screen, but you can definitely detect the softness of the picture. Some OTA channels are only 720p max anyway (ABC, FOX). If I want eye popping 1080i on PBS, for example, I'll just watch it on my TV's internal tuner. Of course I hope Recast will eventually play 1080i. All will be moot when ATSC 3.0 rolls out in a few months and I'll have to get a new system anyway.


----------



## wizwor

mdavej said:


> Yes, 720p max on playback. Looks decent on my 55" screen, but you can definitely detect the softness of the picture.


agree


mdavej said:


> Some OTA channels are only 720p max anyway (ABC, FOX).


your television's ability to up/down scale will impact PQ as well.


mdavej said:


> If I want eye popping 1080i on PBS, for example, I'll just watch it on my TV's internal tuner.


The sets I watch television on (as opposed to the ones that play while I am doing other things) have TiVos on top.


mdavej said:


> Of course I hope Recast will eventually play 1080i. All will be moot when ATSC 3.0 rolls out in a few months and I'll have to get a new system anyway.


You'd hope Amazon would let you add an ATSC 3.0 Recast and have the set top devices integrate the 3.0 channels into the 1.0 guide. No idea why Amazon limits a customer to one Recast per account.


----------



## Charles R

pfiagra said:


> For those that have a Recast, what is the picture like using a Firestick 4K on a decent sized (55" or 65") TV?


From my experience 720p stations look better than they do on my TiVo. Now 1080i looked a touch softer but still had higher contrast like 720p. I posted about such in a Migrating to Recast thread I started a while back.


----------



## hahathatsfunny

So, I had better results this morning.

Yes, I turned off the WiFi again last night . But this time, everything restored without any effort. It's possible that I used my 5-G network first time around or on one device but not the other, or somehow the network name and password didn't save on the Recast initially.

The picture quality is good. I'm not sure why my eyes were critical yesterday and every major network looked like a compressed subchannel, but it looks decent today and comparable in PQ to how my AirTV would stream the channels.

As far as channel lineup integration, for the Sling channels, it does say Program Information Not Available for quite awhile but maybe it's because of the WiFi loss. It's nice to see the Philo, Sling or Pluto channels with locals, networks alphabetized down the EPG, but, it's probably better to use their own apps directly than the integration, especially accessing the DVR for Pluto.

I suppose not many people would keep both Sling and Philo, but I wanted to tried it out. Channel changing is slow especially the first time from a local to Philo to Sling when using the Amazon guide.

So far, I'm still satisfied and feel it's a keeper.


----------



## mdavej

hahathatsfunny said:


> Yes, I turned off the WiFi again last night .


You should watch the first couple of seasons of "Better Call Saul" to see how it's really done.


> As far as channel lineup integration, for the Sling channels, it does say Program Information Not Available for quite awhile but maybe it's because of the WiFi loss.


Yeah, that's one thing that has never really worked very well on Recast. Most of the time, only the OTA guide stays refreshed on its own.


> it's probably better to use their own apps directly than the integration, especially accessing the DVR for Pluto.


Yep. I think you mean Philo though. Pluto doesn't have a DVR. Maybe those electromagnetic waves are affecting your brain after all.


----------



## wizwor

mdavej said:


> Most of the time, only the OTA guide stays refreshed on its own.


I didn't have Philo for long but I have had Pluto since I installed the Recast and I have never had guide issues.


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## mdavej

wizwor said:


> I didn't have Philo for long but I have had Pluto since I installed the Recast and I have never had guide issues.


Interesting. Maybe I'll try re-installing Pluto. My guide rarely refreshes.


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## swyman18

Not sure if this was mentioned, but I believe if the Recast and FireTV device are within close proximity to each other, they will communicate via a “direct WiFi” connection meaning not on your local network, even if the Recast was using ethernet. It never really worked that well for me. I wanted everything to use my wired network if possible for stability. 

Not sure the exact distance they need to be from each other for that feature to be active, but I can imagine if they are “barely close enough” then the connection could be iffy even if each device has a solid connection to your local WiFi.


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## ncted

hahathatsfunny said:


> So, I had better results this morning.
> 
> Yes, I turned off the WiFi again last night . But this time, everything restored without any effort. It's possible that I used my 5-G network first time around or on one device but not the other, or somehow the network name and password didn't save on the Recast initially.
> 
> The picture quality is good. I'm not sure why my eyes were critical yesterday and every major network looked like a compressed subchannel, but it looks decent today and comparable in PQ to how my AirTV would stream the channels.
> 
> As far as channel lineup integration, for the Sling channels, it does say Program Information Not Available for quite awhile but maybe it's because of the WiFi loss. It's nice to see the Philo, Sling or Pluto channels with locals, networks alphabetized down the EPG, but, it's probably better to use their own apps directly than the integration, especially accessing the DVR for Pluto.
> 
> I suppose not many people would keep both Sling and Philo, but I wanted to tried it out. Channel changing is slow especially the first time from a local to Philo to Sling when using the Amazon guide.
> 
> So far, I'm still satisfied and feel it's a keeper.


Your first experience with wi-fi going away was not unsurprising to me. Until I put all my 4k firesticks and the recast on ethernet *and* upgraded the firestick power adapters, I had regular issues with the connection between the devices going away. If the network went down, I was in for a long period of getting everything working again. If you are seeing picture quality issues like you describe, skip back 10 seconds to reset the transcoder. I don't see that as often as I used to but that usually fixed it for me.


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## wizwor

ncted said:


> Your first experience with wi-fi going away was not unsurprising to me. Until I put all my 4k firesticks and the recast on ethernet *and* upgraded the firestick power adapters, I had regular issues with the connection between the devices going away. If the network went down, I was in for a long period of getting everything working again. If you are seeing picture quality issues like you describe, skip back 10 seconds to reset the transcoder. I don't see that as often as I used to but that usually fixed it for me.


My Recast is wired, but the sticks are all wireless. Never had a network problem. My guess would be DHCP assigned address changing on the Recast or the Recast coming up before the router was ready after an outage.


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## Charles R

swyman18 said:


> Not sure if this was mentioned, but I believe if the Recast and FireTV device are within close proximity to each other, they will communicate via a "direct WiFi" connection meaning not on your local network, even if the Recast was using ethernet.


You can disable this "feature" within the secret menu.


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## ncted

wizwor said:


> My Recast is wired, but the sticks are all wireless. Never had a network problem. My guess would be DHCP assigned address changing on the Recast or the Recast coming up before the router was ready after an outage.


Everything has DHCP reservations, so no IPs change. I've only had a couple of complete outages since I've had the recast. This was a regular occurrence until I went 100% wired and upgraded the power adapters. I think it was a combination of hardware and software issues. Hopefully Amazon will support the Recast in the long term.


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## wizwor

Maybe the Recast comes up before the router is giving our DHCP and uses a default IP? Like Windows?


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## ncted

After my Internet comes back up, which doesn't typically require a reboot of the router - just the ONT, it would take multiple reboots (hard and soft) of the Recast and Firesticks before things started working again. In some cases, a Factory Reset was necessary to get a Firestick talking to the Recast again. It wasn't a simple DHCP issue. In any case, it seems much better now, so fingers-crossed it stays that way.


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## wizwor

good luck


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## boilerjt

I recently dumped Spectrum and will be selling my lifetime Roamio Pro soon. I am currently subscribed to Hulu + Live TV (with enhanced DVR) and I am happy so far with the cloud DVR. I am using a Fire TV Stick 4K with an Echo Dot and everything seems to mesh really well. I miss the auto skip on the Tivo, but with Hulu, it shows you the amount of time for commercials and I can then ask Alexa to skip forward x number of seconds.


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## hahathatsfunny

With the Amazon Recast/Firestick, in order to get to Live Over the Air TV , the user has to navigate to DVR. Over the Air guide should have its own tab or come first before DVR, not the other way, in my opinion as live tv has preceded DVR usage in how viewers in general watch TV.

In my my company, when we have software where some process is implemented reversed but still usable, the project manager who doesn't want to push for a change, will just state to the customer it's a user training issue


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## mdavej

hahathatsfunny said:


> With the Amazon Recast/Firestick, in order to get to Live Over the Air TV , the user has to navigate to DVR.


My Fire TV edition TV remote has a guide button that goes directly to the OTA guide. My top level home screen, first row, also has all of my recent live TV channels I can jump to directly. Live tab has even more live TV channels. Then there's the DVR tab you're talking about. Pressing my guide button does the same thing as navigating to the DVR tab. Voice also works. I can press the voice button and say, "watch NBC" or "watch channel 7" or "show guide".

So if you have a TV with Fire TV OS built in, you get more direct access. But the home screen should at least show your recent channels which you can directly access, or you can use voice for direct access if pressing left arrow 4 times is too much hassle.


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## ncted

hahathatsfunny said:


> With the Amazon Recast/Firestick, in order to get to Live Over the Air TV , the user has to navigate to DVR. Over the Air guide should have its own tab or come first before DVR, not the other way, in my opinion as live tv has preceded DVR usage in how viewers in general watch TV.
> 
> In my my company, when we have software where some process is implemented reversed but still usable, the project manager who doesn't want to push for a change, will just state to the customer it's a user training issue


The quickest way to the Channel Guide I've found is:
1. Right One to "Live" tab
2. Down Two to Channels
3. Left One to Channel Guide
4. Select

Also, on my Firestick, the top row of icons (down two) on the home screen shows recent channels on that particular Firestick.


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## Pokemon_Dad

Channels DVR and the HDHR Connect 4K are on this list:

The 2020 cord-cutter awards: The best streaming services, devices, and more


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## wizwor

Pokemon_Dad said:


> The 2020 cord-cutter awards: The best streaming services, devices, and more
> 
> _Instead of making us look through each streaming service's catalog one-by-one, the new Chromecast presents a unified guide with content from Hulu, Disney+, Amazon Prime, HBO Max, and more. And instead of shunting this guide off to some separate menu, Google made it the focal point of its entire interface._​


Of course, the Amazon Recast has been doing this since launch. It integrates OTA with inexpensive and free services. Nothing in that review got me excited.


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## Pokemon_Dad

wizwor said:


> Of course, the Amazon Recast has been doing this since launch. It integrates OTA with inexpensive and free services. Nothing in that review got me excited.


In a really bad year I guess it doesn't take much to be exciting. But some reviews here are not happy with the Recast's video quality, while Channels offers exactly what is received. Also Channels supports cable and TVE as well as OTA, and many users have been early adopters of ATSC 3.0 too.


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## wizwor

Better points than the blogger made. Just the same, the Cord Cutting MVP is the TCL Roku Television. Nothing is a close second. Most people cut or 'trim' the cord to save money. Walmart sold the 55" 4K model for $148 in November. Tough to beat that if you are a value consumer.

It's pretty. It's not plasma and the picture fades if you are far to the left or right or far above or below the set, but from most of my living room, it looks great and I see no motion blur watching sports. I bought a second one to replace a 43″ plasma in my bedroom. Very satisfied. My kids say it is great for games as well. Bought two more this year and they are much faster than my 2018 models.
It's smart. Not smart like it can run apps (it runs the Roku OS). Smart like it remembers what input you last used when powered on. That means, if you use an antenna, it comes up like a dumb television. For some of us, that is very nice.
It's informative. Hit the back button on the remote and you get a full screen grid style EPG (Electronic Program Guide). This is a PSIP sourced EPG, so no need for any kind of connection and no reliance on any kind of service. Unlike some devices (Sling TV DVR, for instance), the EPG includes details for the selected time slot.
It's tricky. Plug a 16g USB 2.0 thumb drive into this television and you will be able to pause, rewind, and fast forward through 90 minutes of television. This television does not record programs, but it does most of the other things we do with a DVR.
Their AC networking is excellent. Hang these wherever you want -- no need to consider where or even if coax or ethernet are in the room.
And it is a Roku TV, so you get a lot of free programming via apps including Sling TV or Tablo TV if you want to stream your antenna to the television.


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## Pokemon_Dad

wizwor said:


> TCL Roku Television


We've had similar enjoyment from a couple of Insignia Fire TV Edition sets. I got those after a Fire TV Stick 4K worked very well with our big screen Sony. I've read good things about the guide in these sets, which in addition to OTA/cable channels will integrate many live TV streaming services if you have them, but I have never used that feature as we use Fire TV primarily to run the Channels DVR client app and of course the Netflix Prime etc apps.

We still have TiVo Minis attached to all our sets, because we prefer TiVo for live/buffered TV, and the Insignias remember and move between inputs well. But it won't be long before the Minis and our last TiVo DVR die off, and by then we'll be ready to move entirely to Channels for whatever remains of OTA and cable TV programming in the not-too-distant future.

Edit: "not-to" ≠ "not-too"...​


----------



## convergent

wizwor said:


> Of course, the Amazon Recast has been doing this since launch. It integrates OTA with inexpensive and free services. Nothing in that review got me excited.


Just curious because I looked at Recast and Tablo before settling on Channels DVR. Can Recast tie together OTA, provider subscribed channels, and free services like Pluto, into a single Guide/DVR experience? I thought that it just DVR'd OTA but let you see a Guide for selected other services, but the DVR for those other services was in other apps or not available (like with Pluto)?

I currently have Channels DVR on an old 2012 Mac Mini, 2 x Quatro HDHR Connects for 8 OTA tuners, and 3 x 10TB external USB3 drives for DVR storage. I get all the locals OTA, supplement with Philo for $20/month, and recently added Pluto. One of the great things about this setup is that you can switch out providers as you wish and your Guide stays consistent and your DVR library stays with you. I'm paying about $27/month for live TV. We also hop onto our daughter's YouTubeTV sometimes, and we don't use any of her streams because TVE access doesn't count as a stream.

Not sure if Recast can do all of that but for me Channels DVR is very exciting.


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## Pokemon_Dad

convergent said:


> Just curious because I looked at Recast and Tablo before settling on Channels DVR. Can Recast tie together OTA, provider subscribed channels, and free services like Pluto, into a single Guide/DVR experience? I thought that it just DVR'd OTA but let you see a Guide for selected other services, but the DVR for those other services was in other apps or not available (like with Pluto)?
> 
> I currently have Channels DVR on an old 2012 Mac Mini, 2 x Quatro HDHR Connects for 8 OTA tuners, and 3 x 10TB external USB3 drives for DVR storage. I get all the locals OTA, supplement with Philo for $20/month, and recently added Pluto. One of the great things about this setup is that you can switch out providers as you wish and your Guide stays consistent and your DVR library stays with you. I'm paying about $27/month for live TV. We also hop onto our daughter's YouTubeTV sometimes, and we don't use any of her streams because TVE access doesn't count as a stream.
> 
> Not sure if Recast can do all of that but for me Channels DVR is very exciting.


Any Fire TV client would do the same guide integration for channel surfing, while also hosting the Channels DVR client app which as you know can record from many of those services as well as cable and OTA. The Recast cannot record from anything but OTA.


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## convergent

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Any Fire TV client would do the same guide integration for channel surfing, while also hosting the Channels DVR client app which as you know can record from many of those services as well as cable and OTA. The Recast cannot record from anything but OTA.


Well I tried a Firestick and didn't like the interface... felt like I had to weed through Amazon stuff to get to anything. Maybe they've changed it, but wasn't for me. Roku is to slow and buggy... have 4 of them collecting dust. Apple TV and Android TV both work for me, but Apple TV is higher on WAF. With a cheap One for All Streamer remote, my wife can do everything and avoid wandering out of the Apple TV environment.

For WAF, the unified Guide and DVR in one app for everything is hard to beat. She has no idea if what she is watching is coming from OTA, Philo, Pluto, or whatever service I've added or removed from the sources. And all the recordings are in one place. My wife got spoiled when we had Tivos and when we were kind of forced to go from Spectrum to Uverse, she never fully liked it. We tried YouTubeTV and she liked that even less from a UI standpoint. Trying to find an episode of Dr. Phil that was recorded earlier today turned out to be a scavenger hunt because it was from 2 years ago and there was no way to sort the recordings for what was recorded most recently. Channels lets her see it that way, or sorted by season and episode.


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## Pokemon_Dad

convergent said:


> Well I tried a Firestick and didn't like the interface...


The Recast is a Fire TV device, so that ends that conversation, lol.



convergent said:


> Apple TV is higher on WAF. With a cheap One for All Streamer remote, my wife can do everything and avoid wandering out of the Apple TV environment.


To ensure domestic tranquility you'd best stick with Apple TV and Channels for a while longer.


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## wizwor

convergent said:


> Maybe they've changed it, but wasn't for me.


Not sure why things were so confusing for you. Once you add an app to the Fire TV device, it is integrated into a grid style program guide. First OTA then each of the other services. To get to that guide, select Live or DVR from the top menu. You can manage favorites if your guide gets too big.



convergent said:


> Roku is to slow and buggy... have 4 of them collecting dust. Apple TV and Android TV both work for me, but Apple TV is higher on WAF. With a cheap One for All Streamer remote, my wife can do everything and avoid wandering out of the Apple TV environment.


I'm no Roku fan, but the TCL televisions are fast and I have experienced no bugs. A recent update added Airplay. I hate the Apple TV remote. Don't care for a tiled guide either.



convergent said:


> For WAF, the unified Guide and DVR in one app for everything is hard to beat. She has no idea if what she is watching is coming from OTA, Philo, Pluto, or whatever service I've added or removed from the sources. And all the recordings are in one place. My wife got spoiled when we had Tivos and when we were kind of forced to go from Spectrum to Uverse, she never fully liked it. We tried YouTubeTV and she liked that even less from a UI standpoint. Trying to find an episode of Dr. Phil that was recorded earlier today turned out to be a scavenger hunt because it was from 2 years ago and there was no way to sort the recordings for what was recorded most recently. Channels lets her see it that way, or sorted by season and episode.


Happy wife, happy life, right? Better keep her away from Dr. Phil if you want her to stay happy.


----------



## convergent

wizwor said:


> Not sure why things were so confusing for you. Once you add an app to the Fire TV device, it is integrated into a grid style program guide. First OTA then each of the other services. To get to that guide, select Live or DVR from the top menu. You can manage favorites if your guide gets too big.


Maybe I need to revisit the Fire. I understand unification of the Guide. But lets say I have OTA and Philo. I would have a unified Guide as you described. If I pick a show that is on Philo, am I going to be watching it through a Fire UI, same as OTA, or is it going to just take me to the Philo app? If it takes me to the app, then the controls and UI are going to be different depending on what channel I'm watching. That confuses the heck out of my wife. Also, where are the recordings from the DVR? If I want to browse my movies that I've recorded, is Fire unifying the library across OTA and Philo, or will I have to go into two places to see them?

I seriously considered the Recast... many things to like about it, not the least of which being that it was subscription free. But I didn't like the lock-in to Firesticks, the seeming lack of drive and tuner upgradeability (I have 3 x 10TB drives and 8 OTA tuners), and what I thought was a lack of unified recording library. If I subscribe to a Live TV provider for a couple of months, I can build up some recordings and have them to watch if I drop the service. I did this with YouTubeTV to save up some kids programming on channels Philo doesn't provide.



> I'm no Roku fan, but the TCL televisions are fast and I have experienced no bugs. A recent update added Airplay. I hate the Apple TV remote. Don't care for a tiled guide either.


Perhaps the Rokus are doing better now, but I invested a lot in them and kind of gave up on it due to the problems. I also have hated the Apple TV remote for years. I use the All for One Streamer on our Apple TVs and its cheap ($20 on sale) and works great. I have channel up/down, last channel, Guide, and Live buttons along with all the normal stuff. Recently I've been giving the Apple TV another look though and starting to like it more. The motivation was that the placement of our Christmas tree blocked my chair's line of site to the Apple TV... go figure.

Channels DVR doesn't have a tiled guide, so not sure if you were referring to that or the tiles for apps in Apple TV. Channels does have an "On Now" view that uses tiles, but I rarely use that... I prefer the traditional Guide which I have a key on the remote set to go straight to. My wife uses that view, and the Recordings view which lists the recordings in time.date order because she usually watches stuff that was recorded that day. I prefer the Library view that lets you see up next shows or just sort in various orders. We also both use the Kids view that separates all the movies and shows that are for Kids from everything else.



> Happy wife, happy life, right? Better keep her away from Dr. Phil if you want her to stay happy.


I hear you on that. She is obsessed with Dr. Phil. I watch some of it with her sometime, but only on DVR where you can FF through most of the repetitive nonsense. We have plenty of Dr. Phil episode like stuff in our family, so it gives her ideas.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

convergent said:


> Also, where are the recordings from the DVR? If I want to browse my movies that I've recorded, is Fire unifying the library across OTA and Philo, or will I have to go into two places to see them?


The Recast only records OTA, and only offers a unified guide for live TV. So with the Recast your recordings would be in the Fire interface but your Philo recordings would be in the Philo app and living in the Philo "Saved Shows" cloud DVR.

Channels records OTA and Philo locally, and integrates them both in the live TV guide too. But you should read the Channels Community thread on Philo, because it's not perfect: Provider - Philo

We use Fire TV as the way to navigate between different apps and we have no problem with the different interfaces in each, but if your wife is happier with Apple TV I wouldn't mess with that.


----------



## convergent

Pokemon_Dad said:


> The Recast only records OTA, and only offers a unified guide for live TV. So with the Recast your recordings would be in the Fire interface but your Philo recordings would be in the Philo app and living in the Philo "Saved Shows" cloud DVR.
> 
> Channels records OTA and Philo locally, and integrates them both in the live TV guide too. But you should read the Channels Community thread on Philo, because it's not perfect: Provider - Philo
> 
> We use Fire TV as the way to navigate between different apps and we have no problem with the different interfaces in each, but if your wife is happier with Apple TV I wouldn't mess with that.


I've been using Channels for about 6 months, as well as Philo, and its been pretty solid. Your description of Fire and Recast is as I expected and consistent with the reviews I looked at when trying to decide between Channels, Tablo, and Recast. Its great to have options.

To be clear, its not the Apple TV that my wife is liking... its Channels. I ran it on Android TV for a while and she didn't really notice the difference when I moved it to Apple TV. I primarily wanted to go to the same remote and TV experience for our two main TVs. And the Apple TV is so fast and provides a seemingly endless buffer to pause live TV.

What has been great is that I've made changes to our providers and channels line up several times and its been totally transparent to her. I dropped YouTube TV and replaced it with OTA for locals and Philo, and she literally didn't know it happened because our Favorites list was unchanged for the main channels we watch most of the time. The only friction point was that Nickelodeon isn't available TVE so we couldn't watch Sponge Bob outside of the Philo app. Our 5 year old granddaughter doesn't watch it a lot, but every once in a while it hits the list. Now that I can access Pluto via Channels, I'm able to record some Sponge Bob and fill that gap.


----------



## ncted

convergent said:


> Perhaps the Rokus are doing better now, but I invested a lot in them and kind of gave up on it due to the problems. I also have hated the Apple TV remote for years. I use the All for One Streamer on our Apple TVs and its cheap ($20 on sale) and works great. I have channel up/down, last channel, Guide, and Live buttons along with all the normal stuff. Recently I've been giving the Apple TV another look though and starting to like it more. The motivation was that the placement of our Christmas tree blocked my chair's line of site to the Apple TV... go figure.


I have the One for All Streamer remote for Apple TV as well and really liked it until very recently. Did you notice the change in behavior with respect to ff/rw in different apps with tvOS 14.x? Apps that used to skim forward/rewind with the button press now skip 10 seconds, and you have to hold the button down to get the skim, but not all apps behave consistently.

I also have a Function 101 remote for AppleTV, and I have to remember which of the three options (d-pad + 2 different sets of ff/rw buttons) does what in each app. As these IR codes are undocumented, I guess Apple decided to switch up the behavior with the last release. I wish I could get used to the regular AppleTV remote and it had a Mute button.


----------



## convergent

ncted said:


> I have the One for All Streamer remote for Apple TV as well and really liked it until very recently. Did you notice the change in behavior with respect to ff/rw in different apps with tvOS 14.x? Apps that used to skim forward/rewind with the button press now skip 10 seconds, and you have to hold the button down to get the skim, but not all apps behave consistently.
> 
> I also have a Function 101 remote for AppleTV, and I have to remember which of the three options (d-pad + 2 different sets of ff/rw buttons) does what in each app. As these IR codes are undocumented, I guess Apple decided to switch up the behavior with the last release. I wish I could get used to the regular AppleTV remote and it had a Mute button.


I didn't notice that change, but will check it out. I kind of jump around between the One for All, the Sony TV remote, and the Apple TV remote. So I may have missed it.

The crazy thing is that I have a Harmony Elite $300 remote and a Cavoo Control Center sitting in the closet and this All for One I prefer. I have two and bought one on sale at Walmart for $16 and one on sale at Best Buy for $20. But in the new streaming world, you don't need to control a bunch of devices anymore... you have your TV, soundbar, streaming box, and maybe a Bluray player. And CEC kind of makes it all work anyway.


----------



## ncted

convergent said:


> The crazy thing is that I have a Harmony Elite $300 remote and a Cavoo Control Center sitting in the closet and this All for One I prefer.


Yes, it is much more straightforward and easy to use than a lot of much more capable devices, which I find often end up just adding complexity to what should be a simple experience.


----------



## mdavej

@convergent and @ncted, in case you're not aware, you can get a JP1 cable on ebay for about $8 and program your OFA Streamer remote using Remote Master software, adding every possible code for any device. If there are still Apple codes that have the old behavior, you can add them. I think for Apple, there are only 128 possible commands in that address space since Apple protocol uses the same frame as NEC1. So a brute force search would uncover every possible command that Apple will respond to.


----------



## convergent

ncted said:


> Yes, it is much more straightforward and easy to use than a lot of much more capable devices, which I find often end up just adding complexity to what should be a simple experience.


I just wish you could reprogram the for pre-labeled buttons. The instruction say you can, but I could not get it to work and called their support line and even though they said it should work, he was unable to provide any different instructions to get mine to work. You can record macros to those buttons, but I wanted to learn additional codes that Channels programs for my Sony remote. A macro does me no good.


----------



## convergent

mdavej said:


> @convergent and @ncted, in case you're not aware, you can get a JP1 cable on ebay for about $8 and program your OFA Streamer remote using Remote Master software, adding every possible code for any device. If there are still Apple codes that have the old behavior, you can add them. I think for Apple, there are only 128 possible commands in that address space since Apple protocol uses the same frame as NEC1. So a brute force search would uncover every possible command that Apple will respond to.


Thanks for the tip... didn't know this was possible. I'm seeing a cord for $20, guessing that is the same one. You don't happen to know if you can reprogram the labeled Netflix, etc. buttons do you? I'm assuming you could given what you described. I need to actually send the commands to the Sony TV rather than the Apple TV. I'm trying to mimic what the Sony Remote is doing which then somehow gets the behaviour in Channels that I'm looking for via CEC.

UPDATE - found this thread that describes what can be programmed... I'm only a page into it so haven't figured out if it can do what I'm wanting to do, but wanted to post it here for reference - JP1 Remotes :: View topic - One For All URC 7935 Streamer Remote


----------



## WVZR1

@mdavej mentioned to me a few months ago the $20 eBay might be a very good device and the 1 piece header on it was likely ideal. I didn't buy at the time but as happy as I am with the OFA/URC-7935 I'm inclined to do the buy. I had no issues doing some re-programing of the 4 buttons that are STREAMER dedicated without the cable but I did notice yesterday that maybe the latest tvOS has my OFA confused as has been mentioned. Maybe it's a 'time to buy'. Right now I have the 4 discussed doing ATV, TiVo, XG1V4 STB and a Roku Ultra that are connected to a Yamaha AVR. I used 'learning' from the Yamaha remote.

If Channels (TVE) did 5.1 I'd be maybe ready. I've done 'surround' since I believe '86 with the 1st being a SHURE AVC20. I got that very early in the release from a NOVA sound production engineer.


----------



## convergent

WVZR1 said:


> @mdavej mentioned to me a few months ago the $20 eBay might be a very good device and the 1 piece header on it was likely ideal. I didn't buy at the time but as happy as I am with the OFA/URC-7935 I'm inclined to do the buy. I had no issues doing some re-programing of the 4 buttons that are STREAMER dedicated without the cable but I did notice yesterday that maybe the latest tvOS has my OFA confused as has been mentioned. Maybe it's a 'time to buy'. Right now I have the 4 discussed doing ATV, TiVo, XG1V4 STB and a Roku Ultra that are connected to a Yamaha AVR. I used 'learning' from the Yamaha remote.
> 
> If Channels (TVE) did 5.1 I'd be maybe ready. I've done 'surround' since I believe '86 with the 1st being a SHURE AVC20. I got that very early in the release from a NOVA sound production engineer.


Wow, so you were able to reprogram the 4 labeled buttons. Curious if you did that by recording macros (looks like you are using it to change inputs) or did you learn something from another remote. I was trying to teach the four buttons new things that couldn't be done with the other programmed buttons. I wanted to learn the color function keys from my Sony TV remote.


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## wizwor

convergent said:


> Maybe I need to revisit the Fire. I understand unification of the Guide. But lets say I have OTA and Philo. I would have a unified Guide as you described. If I pick a show that is on Philo, am I going to be watching it through a Fire UI, same as OTA, or is it going to just take me to the Philo app? If it takes me to the app, then the controls and UI are going to be different depending on what channel I'm watching. That confuses the heck out of my wife. Also, where are the recordings from the DVR? If I want to browse my movies that I've recorded, is Fire unifying the library across OTA and Philo, or will I have to go into two places to see them?


Right now, I only have Pluto installed. It is integrated into the grid and stays in the grid when you exit a show. I cannot speak to recording as Pluto does not have a DVR.



convergent said:


> I seriously considered the Recast... many things to like about it, not the least of which being that it was subscription free. But I didn't like the lock-in to Firesticks, the seeming lack of drive and tuner upgradeability (I have 3 x 10TB drives and 8 OTA tuners), and what I thought was a lack of unified recording library. If I subscribe to a Live TV provider for a couple of months, I can build up some recordings and have them to watch if I drop the service. I did this with YouTubeTV to save up some kids programming on channels Philo doesn't provide.


I bought mine so I could watch television on my Echo Shows. Totally worth it just for that. I also use it with a couple TVs not near coax or ethernet. Just works.



convergent said:


> Perhaps the Rokus are doing better now, but I invested a lot in them and kind of gave up on it due to the problems. I also have hated the Apple TV remote for years. I use the All for One Streamer on our Apple TVs and its cheap ($20 on sale) and works great. I have channel up/down, last channel, Guide, and Live buttons along with all the normal stuff. Recently I've been giving the Apple TV another look though and starting to like it more. The motivation was that the placement of our Christmas tree blocked my chair's line of site to the Apple TV... go figure.


I do not like the Roku company. I got rid of my Rokus after a series of really bad updates. I did not buy the TCL televisions for the integrated Roku. I bought them for the PSIP EPG and Trick Play feature. I also like that it can be configured to power up to the last used input. If you want to use one as a dumb television with an EPG and trick play, you never need to visit the Roku interface. I do use the integrated Roku to run apps. Not even a glitch in two years and I just got an update that added AirPlay without breaking anything else. Worth a look IMHO.



convergent said:


> Channels DVR doesn't have a tiled guide, so not sure if you were referring to that or the tiles for apps in Apple TV. Channels does have an "On Now" view that uses tiles, but I rarely use that... I prefer the traditional Guide which I have a key on the remote set to go straight to. My wife uses that view, and the Recordings view which lists the recordings in time.date order because she usually watches stuff that was recorded that day. I prefer the Library view that lets you see up next shows or just sort in various orders. We also both use the Kids view that separates all the movies and shows that are for Kids from everything else.


I was referring to ATV. I have a couple. Completely unimpressed. Really hate the remote and tiles interface.


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## mdavej

convergent said:


> Wow, so you were able to reprogram the 4 labeled buttons. Curious if you did that by recording macros (looks like you are using it to change inputs) or did you learn something from another remote. I was trying to teach the four buttons new things that couldn't be done with the other programmed buttons. I wanted to learn the color function keys from my Sony TV remote.


With a JP1 cable, you can put anything on any button. I have 3 of these Streamer remotes, and have reprogrammed ALL of the buttons on all of them. But the mappings for groups of buttons get tricky and behave according to how the remote is set up. This mapping is reflected on the "Activities" tab in Remote Master.

Here are some cheap JP1 cables:
JP1 Remotes :: View topic - One For All URC 7935 Streamer Remote

The Grok Shop put together some nice videos about Remote Master. The first couple of videos apply to all JP1 remotes, including the Streamer. The later videos about Extenders do not apply.
JP1 Remotes :: View topic - One For All URC 7935 Streamer Remote
I often recommend the remote in the videos to Tivo users since it has the peanut shape they're fond of. Unlike the Tivo remote, it's far more powerful, having the ability to control 12 devices, 5 functions per button (short press, long press, double press, shifted and double shifted), fast macros, nested macros, unlimited macro steps, key group mapping, variables (toadtog) and conditional branching and of course keymoves and learning like most JP1 remotes. This is far more than a Harmony 665 can do, but Harmony costs 4x as much.

Here's our full writeup on Remote Master:
JP1 - Just How Easy Is It? - JP1 Remotes
Not everything applies to the very simple Streamer remote, but Devices, Macros, Activities and Learned Signals do. Unfortunately, this remote can't do keymoves (assigning functions from other devices to specific keys using codes), but it can do macros on ANY button, not just the 4 "macro" buttons. A macro can act the same as a key move as long as it's not the kind of function that repeats when held (like volume).

And here's how the 4 programmable buttons work on the Streamer remote:
JP1 Remotes :: View topic - One For All URC 7935 Streamer Remote


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## ncted

wizwor said:


> I was referring to ATV. I have a couple. Completely unimpressed. Really hate the ... tiles interface.


 Gee, the grid is my favorite part of AppleTV and Roku. So much easier than wading through all the suggestions, ads, etc. on FireTV. Android TV isn't bad, but the long horizontal list of Favorites requires more button presses if what you want is at the end of the list.


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## ncted

The OneforAll Streamer remote works really well for Roku devices that accept IR inputs too. It fixes several remote-related issues we've had with Roku related to Roku not correctly controlling TV power/volume.


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## wizwor

ncted said:


> Gee, *the grid is my favorite part of AppleTV and Roku*. So much easier than wading through all the suggestions, ads, etc. on FireTV. Android TV isn't bad, but the long horizontal list of Favorites requires more button presses if what you want is at the end of the list.


Sometimes, the heart wants what the heart wants. Some think the grid guide is primitive. I've been surfing a grid guide for half a century. It works best for me.


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## spiderpumpkin

I've been using Channels DVR for about 16 months now and it keeps getting better. Ever since installing the Channels Server I've wanted to add Pluto TV as a source and now that's possible.

Pluto TV with Channels just works like any other source with integrated guide, pause live tv, live tv buffer, passes and recordings. One downside is the guide data is only about 12 hours since that's all Pluto provides ahead of time.

All you need to do is

1. Install Docker. Empowering App Development for Developers | Docker

2. Run a Docker container command. Docker Hub

3. Add Pluto TV as a m3u local url source on Channels server. (HLS Stream Format). http://127.0.0.1:8080/playlist.m3u








4. Add xml local url as the guide data provider with 3 hour refresh. http://127.0.0.1:8080/epg.xml








5. Customize channel lineup if needed. One thing I don't like about Pluto TV is the 200 channels I don't want to see in the guide. Channels makes hiding those unwanted channels very easy.








BETA: Custom Channels via M3U Playlists


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## ke3ju

spiderpumpkin said:


> I've been using Channels DVR for about 16 months now and it keeps getting better. Ever since installing the Channels Server I've wanted to add Pluto TV as a source and now that's possible.
> 
> Pluto TV with Channels just works like any other source with integrated guide, pause live tv, live tv buffer, passes and recordings. One downside is the guide data is only about 12 hours since that's all Pluto provides ahead of time.
> 
> All you need to do is
> 
> 1. Install Docker. Empowering App Development for Developers | Docker
> 
> 2. Run a Docker container command. Docker Hub
> 
> 3. Add Pluto TV as a m3u local url source on Channels server. (HLS Stream Format). http://127.0.0.1:8080/playlist.m3u
> View attachment 56787
> 
> 
> 4. Add xml local url as the guide data provider with 3 hour refresh. http://127.0.0.1:8080/epg.xml
> View attachment 56788
> 
> 
> 5. Customize channel lineup if needed. One thing I don't like about Pluto TV is the 200 channels I don't want to see in the guide. Channels makes hiding those unwanted channels very easy.
> View attachment 56790
> 
> 
> BETA: Custom Channels via M3U Playlists
> 
> View attachment 56789


Too much trouble, when it's as easy as adding Spectrum or some other cable provider, then I'll get on board. I went to Docker site to see what that was about it it looked like you have to pay for it, and also no mention of what platforms it runs on.


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## Pokemon_Dad

ke3ju said:


> Too much trouble, when it's as easy as adding Spectrum or some other cable provider, then I'll get on board. I went to Docker site to see what that was about it it looked like you have to pay for it, and also no mention of what platforms it runs on.


Adding Pluto sure takes time, but some folks find that all play and no work. Anyway, sounds like you know that adding regular cable providers to Channels DVR is far far easier. But if you have Spectrum then you have my sympathies, lol.

Spectrum is best supported by their TVE feature, though some channels don't come in that way. They also support HDHR CableCARD boxes, but as I understand it some Spectrum regions encrypt all the channels, and in others I think you still need a tuning adapter. I get a headache just thinking about it.


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## spiderpumpkin

ke3ju said:


> Too much trouble, when it's as easy as adding Spectrum or some other cable provider, then I'll get on board. I went to Docker site to see what that was about it it looked like you have to pay for it, and also no mention of what platforms it runs on.


Took like 4 minutes to download and install Docker and it was free. Took another minute to add the container.


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## slowbiscuit

Caroline Parker said:


> There was a website uwatchfree, It was the best website to stream and download movies and series. I have watched alot of stuff on this website. I am finding some alternatives to that. Will share if I find some.


We can dedicate an entire subforum to pirating, but I don't think the admins would approve.


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## wizwor

slowbiscuit said:


> We can dedicate an entire subforum to pirating, but I don't think the admins would approve.


Sometimes it's best just to move on to another discussion.


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## Pokemon_Dad

slowbiscuit said:


> We can dedicate an entire subforum to pirating, but I don't think the admins would approve.





wizwor said:


> Sometimes it's best just to move on to another discussion.


Turns out "Caroline" was posting variations of the same message to promote the same two websites over and over again. Reported and deleted. It would be best if we delete our posts responding to "him" too. (The profile said "Male".)


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