# Somebody slap me (thinking about leaving)...



## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Out of the blue I got a brochure from DirecTV. I haven't had D since 2002 (where I was introduced to Tivo, BTW), but they had a "come back" special so I went to the site and started to look through it and now I am actually cosidering leaving Tivo.

I have a cableco that is included in my HOA fees, so it would seem to be a slam dunk to stay with cable and Tivo, but it is actually very interesting price wise. Here is a rundown:

I have 4 tivos, 8 tuners (planned to go to 5) and 6 total TVs. I have one lifetime S3, two Premieres and one THD. I currently pay $0 for cable (actually I pay for it, but that fee will never go away as it is in my HOA), $10 HD upgrade fee, $10 cable card fees, $6 cable box fees (non Tivo TVs), and $27 in Tivo fees. That runs $53. It would be $65 if I added another Tivo. I get a whopping 36 HD channels, and only 5 regional sportsnets.

With the D* offer I received, it comes to $80 per month for two years including all equipment- I'd be out $300 up front. I would get all of the same channels, plus a boatload more HD and more Sportsnets plus dozens more regular channels as well as access to their free Cinema movies (they say over 4000, sort of like netflix streaming). I would get only 2 DVRs (half of my Tivos never record anyway, but we use them for MRV) and the other 4 TVs would get HD receivers that act as clients to watch programs streamed from the DVRs. 

We also use the tivos to stream movies from our computer, but it appears the D* boxes can do that as well. And, since I only get Netflix streaming, I could potentially eliminate that $8 per month if the D* content is worthwhile.

I would give up Pandora (I have it on my PCs and two Blu Ray players), Amazon (but D* has their own VOD of course) and Tivos. 

I really need some help here as I am really considering this move. What am I missing?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

You don't have to give up Pandora or Amazon VOD if you have a PC that can run PlayOn. You can also use that to stream movies from your computer, or use a DLNA server on the computer. Oh, and Netflix too.

I don't think you're missing anything. There would be a period of adjustment to get used to the different UI, but as someone who has had both kinds for 4-5 years, it works.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

That's a LOT of TiVo's and TV's.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

stevel said:


> You don't have to give up Pandora or Amazon VOD if you have a PC that can run PlayOn. You can also use that to stream movies from your computer, or use a DLNA server on the computer. Oh, and Netflix too.
> 
> I don't think you're missing anything. There would be a period of adjustment to get used to the different UI, but as someone who has had both kinds for 4-5 years, it works.


Every time I have tried this I found I needed to reset the DVR or receiver afterward to get sound from regular television after using the DLNA receiver. I am having better luck keeping an S2 standalone TiVo connected to the TV for these things.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Don't forget all the money you're going to lose by having 4 paid for, but unused, TiVos. You can probably sell them, but probably for only 1/2-1/4 of what you paid for them. It's spent money, so it's not an immediate hit, but it is something you should consider.

Maybe instead you should ditch one of the TiVos and build an HTPC with a Ceton card instead. 4 tuners from 1 CableCARD, no monthly fee and the ability to stream programs to any room in the house using an XBox 360 or MCE extender. (I'm actually considering this option myself)

Dan


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Consider yourself slapped.

Maybe this year DirecTV will replace Comcast as the Worst Company in America.

DON'T SIGN WITH DIRECTV.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Don't forget all the money you're going to lose by having 4 paid for, but unused, TiVos. You can probably sell them, but probably for only 1/2-1/4 of what you paid for them. It's spent money, so it's not an immediate hit, but it is something you should consider.
> 
> Maybe instead you should ditch one of the TiVos and build an HTPC with a Ceton card instead. 4 tuners from 1 CableCARD, no monthly fee and the ability to stream programs to any room in the house using an XBox 360 or MCE extender. (I'm actually considering this option myself)
> 
> Dan


I have thought of this as well. The Xbox works great as a media extender and the Netflix/Xbox Live movie rentals interfaces are lightyears ahead of Tivo's. However, I am still not sold on the PC (although I have an HTPC today that is basically only a video server).


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

stevel said:


> You don't have to give up Pandora or Amazon VOD if you have a PC that can run PlayOn. You can also use that to stream movies from your computer, or use a DLNA server on the computer. Oh, and Netflix too.
> 
> I don't think you're missing anything. There would be a period of adjustment to get used to the different UI, but as someone who has had both kinds for 4-5 years, it works.


I saw in another thread that you are using PlayOn. Doesn't that restrict Amazon and Netflix to SD quality? And, how do you serve up movies to your receivers using PlayOn? Or, do you need another piece of software?

This is the most important part to me. I have an 8TB RAID array I am filling with my movie collection- the Tivo isn't perfect in this regard, but it is pretty darn good if you encode the movies correctly.


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## MrSkippy53 (Jan 27, 2011)

I think with the d boxes you can also stream to an iPad...


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I don't know about being restricted to SD with PlayOn - I have not tried to view HD content. I have watched video files from my NAS box on the HR21 and it worked fine.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

larrs said:


> However, I am still not sold on the PC (although I have an HTPC today that is basically only a video server).


Windows 7 MCE looks pretty nice from the little bit I've played with it. (I only have a crappy OTA USB tuner) Plus the Ceton card costs less then one TiVo lifetime subscription and can record 4 programs at once, instead of just 2, so it seems like a bargain from that perspective. The only thing I might worry about is the stability, and vulnerability, of Windows. Although I just checked an my PC with Windows 7 x64 has been running for >8 days and is still fine. (I think it only rebooted then for a security update)

Dan


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

stevel said:


> I don't know about being restricted to SD with PlayOn - I have not tried to view HD content. I have watched video files from my NAS box on the HR21 and it worked fine.


Many of my video files are HD. I need to find out if they will stream OK to the D receivers. I would assume so since they will stream HD from an HD DVR, but I still need to do some research. My offer is "supposedly" only good until March 31.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Windows 7 MCE looks pretty nice from the little bit I've played with it. (I only have a crappy OTA USB tuner) Plus the Ceton card costs less then one TiVo lifetime subscription and can record 4 programs at once, instead of just 2, so it seems like a bargain from that perspective. The only thing I might worry about is the stability, and vulnerability, of Windows. Although I just checked an my PC with Windows 7 x64 has been running for >8 days and is still fine. (I think it only rebooted then for a security update)
> 
> Dan


+1 for MCE on Win 7. I've been using an HTPC for over four years and MCE for about a year. I got my Ceton tuner back in August of last year and never looked back. I've got a few extenders around the house (X-Box 360, Linksys DMA2200, and an HP x280n) and they all work pretty well for streaming live TV and recorded shows from the primary HTPC.

The one major caveat with an HTPC is that if it's stable and working, don't screw with it. It's tough to resist the urge to update drivers and hardware. You tend to create more problems this way so if you're a tweaker and upgrader like myself, be forewarned that you will likely create your own problems by messing with your setup.

FWIW, I like to reboot the main HTPC every few days or so just to clear out the cobwebs. It tends to keep things running smoother with the extenders and avoid errors such as tuners not being available.

Aside from the initial hardware costs, which are much less than buying multiple Tivos with lifetime service, the only monthly fees I pay are for my Xtreme HD package from FIOS ($40.99 for Xtreme HD and $3.99 for one cablecard plus local fees and taxes). I use four ATSC tuners with an antenna for HD locals and get the other FIOS channels via the Ceton tuners.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

It looks like it is a total equivalent. The cost of owership is almost exactly the same (since I need to at least buy one more Tivo and I should upgrade the S3 with Lifetime to a Premiere- one cablecard, more goodies later). After all of the outlay upfront it looks to be exactly the same.

That means with D* I end up with a bunch more channels at the same cost. However, my luck is such that the day I do it, the DirecTivo will be released and I'll be locked out of it. 

The one thing I am really torn over is the fact that what D* seems to have almost exactly what I want (if the ability to view my video collection on the D* boxes works). IF tivo had extenders like Moxi so I am not paying for boxes where I really don't need recording capabilites and IF Tivo had streaming, so we didn't have to worry about the broadcast flag and IF tivo would get off the dime and get the new UI finished and IF...but I really love my Tivos.

For now, I am going to leave out the option of the Media Center PC. I would still need boxes from my cable co at each TV (we are all digital and need at least a DTA at $2 and no HD or an HD box at $7 each) for watching live TV and something to use as an extender at each TV for watching recorded shows. Someone can correct me if this is wrong.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Yes, PlayOn is SD and of course requires a computer running full time to host it. It's also unsanctioned by the folks they scrape content from, so things could vanish temporarily or permanently as sites make changes, etc. So yeah I'm not a fan. A $60 or $80 Roku is a better solution in my opinion. 

Regarding the DirecTiVo, there's no telling when it's going to show up. And all signs point to it running on older DirecTV hardware with fewer features than you'd get with current DirecTV-only hardware. I find DirecTV's whole home solution compelling and it's better than MRV in implementation.

But it may be a lot of effort to blow up your current solution. Although, as Dan said you'd at least recoup some money if you chose to sell your TiVo hardware.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

If you have Internet as a bundle with your cable then make sure that you account for the fact that you'll be paying a separate fee for Internet if you go with D*.

Consider also that evidence of test activity on a likely whole home TiVo solution has been spotted in the wild. Given TiVo's recent development pace, we may have it in as little as five years.  But there's always the chance that it will arrive while you're still locked in on a D* contract.

I'm still happy to be rid of D*. They went from being a way to escape cable to being just another cable company. Of course, I'm lucky to have a cable company (WOW) that frequently beats D* on customer service.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

davezatz said:


> Yes, PlayOn is SD and of course requires a computer running full time to host it. It's also unsanctioned by the folks they scrape content from, so things could vanish temporarily or permanently as sites make changes, etc. So yeah I'm not a fan. A $60 or $80 Roku is a better solution in my opinion.
> 
> Regarding the DirecTiVo, there's no telling when it's going to show up. And all signs point to it running on older DirecTV hardware with fewer features than you'd get with current DirecTV-only hardware. I find DirecTV's whole home solution compelling and it's better than MRV in implementation.
> 
> But it may be a lot of effort to blow up your current solution. Although, as Dan said you'd at least recoup some money if you chose to sell your TiVo hardware.


Yeah, and that effort is huge if I end up stuck with something worse than what I have now for 24 months... the interesting part is there is little info out there about the media streaming on D* boxes. Given the number of subscribers they hae, I would think a bunch of people would be using it and posting on forums about it. This really scares me and makes me lean ever so slightly to Tivo/cable.

Sometimes the known (even if somewhat flawed) is better than the unknown.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I'll say just one thing about DirecTV and then leave it alone. The one major beef I've always had with them is that no matter what you do with your setup you're locked into a lengthy commitment to their service. If you aren't satisfied with it you're basically SOL unless you want to pay a hefty early termination fee. If you want to make any changes to your service you have to start the clock over from scratch. 

They are the only service provider I know of that requires any sort of commitment, regardless of what deals they may or may not offer. Some providers will give you a lower rate if you commit to a long-term deal, but they don't hold a gun to your head and make you do it. DirecTV gives you no options whatsoever. If you sign up, it's for the long haul. It's the main reason I left them for FIOS. It's also the best decision I ever made regarding a TV provider besides dumping Comcast over 13 years ago.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)




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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Plus the Ceton card costs less then one TiVo lifetime subscription


No, it doesn't, they're exactly the same ($399) and Tivo MSD sub is $100 cheaper.



mr.unnatural said:


> Aside from the initial hardware costs, which are much less than buying multiple Tivos with lifetime service


No, they're not, assuming an apples to apples comparison of 4-tuner HTPC w/extender vs. two Tivos w/lifetime.

<sigh> Lots of misinformation here - good thing OP is ruling out a WMC solution so we don't have to argue about this yet again.


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## tombonneau (Mar 26, 2009)

If you think you'd get $80/mo enjoyment out of those extra channels, do it, but I personally would have trouble justifying that cost, especially as you're now double dipping pay TV via your HOA fees (yes they are a fixed cost regardless but conceptually a percentage of that is your cable bill whether you like it or not).

Let me put it another way: D-TV should promote whatever sales guy has you even mulling this offer over.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

tombonneau said:


> If you think you'd get $80/mo enjoyment out of those extra channels, do it, but I personally would have trouble justifying that cost, especially as you're now double dipping pay TV via your HOA fees (yes they are a fixed cost regardless but conceptually a percentage of that is your cable bill whether you like it or not).
> 
> Let me put it another way: D-TV should promote whatever sales guy has you even mulling this offer over.


It was a brochure. I'm the sales guy (and a damn good one at that, apparently ).

The cost is really about $25 per month difference (taking out the tivo/cablecard costs from the $80 per month) so, yes it is a tougher choice.

I decided to look at it another way, just on the hardware side for a moment and assuming I do not get any additional Tivos right now:

Tivo w/Lifetime- no additional monthly cost, could sell for enough to lower my D* out of pocket to near $0)

Tivo sub fees (@ $9.95/mo MSD) which I know I can get cheaper by paying up front for another lifetime or paying annually, but let's do apples to apples) =$30

Cablecard fees= $15

Additional cable boxes= $12 ($6x2 for HD boxes)

*That totals $57*
On the D* side:

DVR fees= $7
Box fees= $36 ($6 per box)

*Which totals $43*

So, this gives me a difference of $14 per month in D*'s favor.

On the programming side, it appears to me that I would get all of those extra channels for $23 monthly or $37 monthly if the hardware were equalized out of the monthly equation.

Sorry, but it still seems like a deal to me, although I am doubtful I am going to take it as of now, given the inability to move programs to my PC and my concern over the streaming of my video catalog.


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## comma splice (Feb 4, 2010)

tombonneau said:


> If you think you'd get $80/mo enjoyment out of those extra channels, do it, but I personally would have trouble justifying that cost...


This is a good point. Which channels would you be adding that you don't get now? It might be helpful to make a list.

That's what I did when deciding to switch to TiVo (with FiOS) from DirecTV.

I found that I actually get more of the channels I want with TiVo and FiOS.

Other plusses in the TiVO column that I didn't get on D*:


The ability to manage season passes and view my Now Playing list online (you can schedule recordings online with D*, but that's it)
Much better remote control
Suggestions
Web videos/content


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

In July, I left DirecTV, ending 7 years service. What started out as a $40/mo fee in 2003 (1 TiVo, no HD) ended up as a $65/mo fee (exact same set up). So my only comment for you is that you're not accounting for the annual $3/mo fee increase that you also get from DirecTV. (They don't spend a lot of time advertising that one.)

I have personally gone the "cut the cord" route. I made a video for several friends who were asking about my setup. You guys are my friends, right?


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mjh said:


> In July, I left DirecTV, ending 7 years service. What started out as a $40/mo fee in 2003 (1 TiVo, no HD) ended up as a $65/mo fee (exact same set up). So my only comment for you is that you're not accounting for the annual $3/mo fee increase that you also get from DirecTV. (They don't spend a lot of time advertising that one.)
> 
> I have personally gone the "cut the cord" route. I made a video for several friends who were asking about my setup. You guys are my friends, right?


The cut the cord route doesn't help me in that I would still be "paying" for extended basic cable anyway (in my HOA fees). And, I for one, could not live without ESPN during the fall.

I have done a lot of reading this weekend and the built in fee increases are problematic, but supposedly I would be locked in for 2 years. Based on what I see, I would be hit fairly hard after that second year (from $80 to $125/mo) as my "please come back" discounts expire.

Right now with Cable/Tivo/Satellite, given the changes in the arena in the last two years , I have a hard time looking farther than two years out which is why I haven't upgraded my other Tivos to PLS.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

comma said:


> This is a good point. Which channels would you be adding that you don't get now? It might be helpful to make a list.
> 
> That's what I did when deciding to switch to TiVo (with FiOS) from DirecTV.
> 
> ...


The $37 difference would get me about 10 more Sportsnets, one of which I really would love to have because alot of my college team's games are on it. Of the additional HD channels, only two or three are HD versions of SD channels I currently watch. But I would also get the Encore and TMC movie channels, which we would watch. All, in all, $37 is a boatload of $ for six, non premium channels- only one of which I consider that I would LOVE to have (the Sportsnet).


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## mercurial (Oct 17, 2002)

CuriousMark said:


> Every time I have tried this I found I needed to reset the DVR or receiver afterward to get sound from regular television after using the DLNA receiver. I am having better luck keeping an S2 standalone TiVo connected to the TV for these things.


Oddly, I've never seen that issue on our mix of HR24/H24 units.



netringer said:


> Consider yourself slapped.
> 
> Maybe this year DirecTV will replace Comcast as the Worst Company in America.
> 
> DON'T SIGN WITH DIRECTV.


They'd have to get in line way behind TWC to get that honor.

I switched from TWC (2x TiVo S3, 1x TiVo HD, 2x TiVo S2DT) and I've been very happy with DTV. Their Whole House DVR works much better than MRV when you have to deal with TWC's "aggressive" CCI byte setting.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mercurial said:


> Oddly, I've never seen that issue on our mix of HR24/H24 units.
> 
> They'd have to get in line way behind TWC to get that honor.
> 
> I switched from TWC (2x TiVo S3, 1x TiVo HD, 2x TiVo S2DT) and I've been very happy with DTV. Their Whole House DVR works much better than MRV when you have to deal with TWC's "aggressive" CCI byte setting.


At least I don't have that to worry about. My CableCo only restricts the premium channels, at least for now- though it worries me. I think cablecos are using it on purpose against Tivo. Now, if/when Tivo implements true streaming (if?), I could stop worrying.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, it doesn't, they're exactly the same ($399) and Tivo MSD sub is $100 cheaper.


But you get 4 tuners on the Ceton card, vs 2 on a Tivo.

(BTW, I have never even SEEN a Windows Media PC..)


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

mercurial said:


> ...They'd have to get in line way behind TWC to get that honor...


I feel ya, brother.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, it doesn't, they're exactly the same ($399) and Tivo MSD sub is $100 cheaper.


Premier with lifetime costs $99 + $399. Ceton card is $399. He said he already has an HTPC so in this particular case the Ceton is cheaper and gets him 2 more tuners.

Although even starting from scratch an HTPC with Ceton card is getting very competitive. You can build a decent HTPC with Ceton card for ~$1000. Two TiVos + lifetime are about the same price.

There was a time when TiVo vs HTPC was basically apples vs oranges, but with the Ceton card everything has changed and the HTPC has become a much more viable option.

Dan


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Premier with lifetime costs $99 + $399. Ceton card is $399. He said he already has an HTPC so in this particular case the Ceton is cheaper and gets him 2 more tuners.
> 
> Although even starting from scratch an HTPC with Ceton card is getting very competitive. You can build a decent HTPC with Ceton card for ~$1000. Two TiVos + lifetime are about the same price.
> 
> ...


OK, so if I chose to go that direction- my cost looks like this:

Initial out of pocket- $399 (Ceton card), $99x3= $297 (extenders that I don't already have)= $700

Monthly fees= $7 x 5= $35 monthly for cable boxes for live tv for all TVs (except the one the HTPC is connected to) plus $3 for the cable card.

It would take me 40 months to reach breakeven with my initial outlay and start saving $ and afterwards I would be saving about $15 per month.

A PC sounds good and all, but I could also apply that $700 toward lifetime service for 2 of the tivos and lower my cost by $20 per month.

I am getting really close to a decision to do nothing...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Why do you need cable boxes? You can stream live TV to the extenders as long as there is a free tuner on the Ceton card.

Dan


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'll say just one thing about DirecTV and then leave it alone. The one major beef I've always had with them is that no matter what you do with your setup you're locked into a lengthy commitment to their service. If you aren't satisfied with it you're basically SOL unless you want to pay a hefty early termination fee. If you want to make any changes to your service you have to start the clock over from scratch.
> 
> They are the only service provider I know of that requires any sort of commitment, regardless of what deals they may or may not offer. Some providers will give you a lower rate if you commit to a long-term deal, but they don't hold a gun to your head and make you do it. DirecTV gives you no options whatsoever. If you sign up, it's for the long haul. It's the main reason I left them for FIOS. It's also the best decision I ever made regarding a TV provider besides dumping Comcast over 13 years ago.


That - you have commitment even if you add a box you own. "It's our policy." It's also their policy to not tell you have a commitment until you try to leave.

My point there. AT&T UVerse among others, says you can cancel even the first month, event though they have the same kind of sunk cost in the installation. Guess which company thinks their product is good enough to keep customers?

DirecTV further sleeze by such as if sign up to pay a single bill online you have to agree to never get a paper bill again. The better to be able to raid your checking account until long after you're dead.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Why do you need cable boxes? You can stream live TV to the extenders as long as there is a free tuner on the Ceton card.
> 
> Dan


Consider my interest piqued...

I was not aware of that. I may look again.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Premier with lifetime costs $99 + $399. Ceton card is $399. He said he already has an HTPC so in this particular case the Ceton is cheaper and gets him 2 more tuners.
> 
> Although even starting from scratch an HTPC with Ceton card is getting very competitive. You can build a decent HTPC with Ceton card for ~$1000. Two TiVos + lifetime are about the same price.
> 
> ...


Your original post said a Tivo lifetime *sub *costs more than a Ceton card, not a box + sub. That's all.

If you are willing to put up with the limitations of extenders, sure, 7MC is a viable option. There are tradeoffs with both approaches, and one is not necessarily superior to the other in all cases as some would have you think. All I'm saying is that the cost isn't that much different for 2 Tivos vs. a decent HTPC with an extender + the Ceton card. But you can save money every month with only having one Cablecard for the PC.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> Your original post said a Tivo lifetime *sub *costs more than a Ceton card, not a box + sub. That's all.


Typo, my bad. I meant a TiVo *with* lifetime sub.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

larrs said:


> Consider my interest piqued...


I've not used this system myself, but it's my understanding that using an MCE extender is just like sitting in front of the HTPC itself. So anything you can play on the HTPC, including live TV, can be played via the extender. (there are exceptions for disc based media like DVDs or BluRay, but there are plug-ins that allow you to work around that as well)

Dan


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, they're not, assuming an apples to apples comparison of 4-tuner HTPC w/extender vs. two Tivos w/lifetime.
> 
> <sigh> Lots of misinformation here - good thing OP is ruling out a WMC solution so we don't have to argue about this yet again.


And lots of nay-saying from people that obviously have not read the dozens of threads comparing costs of an HTPC with a Ceton tuner vs. owning multiple Tivos or have a clue what it is they're arguing against. You can put whatever money you want into a basic PC that will support a Ceton tuner but a basic setup will still cost you less than two Tivos with lifetime.

FYI - your lifetime service will only last as long as you can keep your Tivo alive. A PC can easily be repaired by replacing one or more components at a cost that is probably less than what Tivo will charge you for the refurbished unit as a one-time replacement. If the replacement Tivo dies you're lost all of your investment and will have to start over again.

The big bucks HTPCs tend to be aimed more towards gaming rigs so they include high end CPUs and graphics cards and more memory. A basic PC that will function perfectly well as an HTPC can be purchased for less than $400-500. Don't take my word for it, do a search and get the real skinny instead of blowing it off and calling it misinformation out of sheer ignorance. Perhaps you can detail all of your personal experience with HTPCs and cablecard tuners so we know what credentials you have to make such a judgement. I've got many years of hands-on experience on both platforms.

I've had dozens of Tivos and numerous other DVRs over the past 12 years or so and my HTPC with Ceton tuner and WMC is by far the best platform I've ever used. When you consider all of the features an HTPC will support, a Tivo pales by comparison. When was the last time you streamed a ripped Blu-Ray movie to Tivo with full 1080p and HD audio support? Wait, you can't because Tivo doesn't support either audio or video format.

There isn't a single feature a Tivo can do that an HTPC can't do equally well or better. If you have reservations about building an HTPC because of all of the potential problems inherent in a Windows PC, then by all means continue to support a platform that is slowly dying. Current hardware and software is far more stable than it was just a few years ago and problems, while they can still occur, are far less of an issue than they once were.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I've not used this system myself, but it's my understanding that using an MCE extender is just like sitting in front of the HTPC itself. So anything you can play on the HTPC, including live TV, can be played via the extender. (there are exceptions for disc based media like DVDs or BluRay, but there are plug-ins that allow you to work around that as well)
> 
> Dan


Actually there are far more limitations that what you stated. Extenders are pretty much limited to live TV and playing whatever was recorded on the main HTPC via WMC. They do not have the codecs to support other video formats, such as mkv files. This is another feature provided by Microsoft at no extra charge to the end user (you just gotta love 'em). If you decide to go with extenders you should be aware of the limitations they present. If all you want to do is use them as a replacement for your cable box then they will do the job nicely. They do not have the ability to play either DVDs or Blu-Rays and there are no workarounds that I'm aware of that will fix this.

However, there are a multitude of inexpensive media players that can pick up the slack and play the miscellaneous formats an extender cannot support. It does require a 2nd box at each location, but many media players are actually quite compact and take up little more space than a moderately thick paperback book.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There is a workaround for DVDs, not sure about BluRay. I found a plugin for MCE that basically remuxes the main movie of a DVD on the fly so that it is streamed to the extender in the format it requires. Here's the link....

http://mikinho.com/wmc/transcode/

Dan


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that app. I believe extenders can also play mpg files and possibly a few others, but the selection is still limited. I just use my extenders as a replacement for my cable boxes with the added bonus of being able to stream recorded shows from the main HTPC. They do add more cost to the overall setup, but considering than an HD converter box generally runs about $10 per month in rental fees even a new XBox 360 4GB slim will pay for itself in about 20-21 months. I've found older Linksys DMA2200 extenders with integrated DVD players for less than $70 on ebay.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> And lots of nay-saying from people that obviously have not read the dozens of threads comparing costs of an HTPC with a Ceton tuner vs. owning multiple Tivos or have a clue what it is they're arguing against. You can put whatever money you want into a basic PC that will support a Ceton tuner but a basic setup will still cost you less than two Tivos with lifetime.


An HTPC + Ceton card + extender will run you around $1000, easy, same as the cost of two lifetime Tivos (from fleabay or as upgrades).

The rest of what you posted is just your opinion that the HTPC is always superior, same as it ever was. For you, yes, but not for everyone. And I do run both setups in my house, so I have experience with both.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

MCE might be better if you get limited basic cable and then MCE would allow you to map all the free QAM channels so you can get guide data.

Does MCE do wishlist searches like TIVO?


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Actually, given the comments, I still do not think the MCE route is affective in a family situaiton (we are a family of four).

If the MCE is basically a "go to my pc" type connection to the PC, I can see how it would work in a household without kids. However, let's say it is 10pm at night and I want to catch the end of Monday Night Football in my bedroom. However when use the MCE, I see that two programs are recording on two of the tuners. I then see the other two tuners are on channels a and b. I would have to call each of my kids' rooms to see if they are watching those channels to see which tuner I could use to watch football, right?

I believe the MCE, or some other box, for streaming and watching recorded TV plus a cable box at each Tv for live TV is a better option for a family.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> MCE might be better if you get limited basic cable and then MCE would allow you to map all the free QAM channels so you can get guide data.
> 
> Does MCE do wishlist searches like TIVO?


Yes, but this is one area where Tivo is superior to an HTPC, contrary to what mr.unnatural would have you believe. Tivo has advanced wishlist searches with boolean operators, and MCE does not. All you get is simple keyword WLs on MCE. Makes it very easy for me for schedule sports events on the Tivo where I only want to see the main event and not practices etc.

I agree that MCE is a good solution for clear QAM channels, that's exactly what I use mine for. Tivo is pretty worthless for digital cable without a card.


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## mercurial (Oct 17, 2002)

larrs said:


> Actually, given the comments, I still do not think the MCE route is affective in a family situaiton (we are a family of four).
> 
> If the MCE is basically a "go to my pc" type connection to the PC, I can see how it would work in a household without kids. However, let's say it is 10pm at night and I want to catch the end of Monday Night Football in my bedroom. However when use the MCE, I see that two programs are recording on two of the tuners. I then see the other two tuners are on channels a and b. I would have to call each of my kids' rooms to see if they are watching those channels to see which tuner I could use to watch football, right?
> 
> I believe the MCE, or some other box, for streaming and watching recorded TV plus a cable box at each Tv for live TV is a better option for a family.


2-4 tuners dedicated to recording. 
4 more tuners with one dedicated to each family member.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

My HTPC sports four ATSC tuners plus four digital cable tuners via the Ceton card. Tuner availability is rarely a problem in my household.

FYI - in the very near future the Ceton quad tuner card will no longer be the only option for recording digital cable on your PC. Silicon Dust will have their three-tuner networked HDHomeRun Prime available for only $250. Ceton will also have a USB version of the 4-tuner model as well as 2 and 6-tuner versions.

Tivos certainly have their strong points. I don't recall saying that HTPCs were superior but that they provided more functionality than a Tivo, which is absolutely true. The vast majority of bells and whistles that Tivo has added over the past couple of years have been pretty much useless and hardly worthy of mention, IMHO. Pretty much all of them have been available to PC users for much longer than Tivo has had them anyway.

HTPCs can stream both live and recorded TV to an extender for remote viewing. Tivo uses an arcane system that requires any recording to be copied from one Tivo to another in order to view it. If the target Tivo is already near full capacity you're pretty much SOL unless you delete some recordings to make room for it.

I'm not sure if Tivo has ever overcome the scheduling conflict issue between Tivos but unless it has, you have to coordinate recordings between Tivos so there are no conflicts or overlaps. With a WMC HTPC you can schedule recordings drirectly from any extender and also view what is currently scheduled from any remote location.

I'll be the first to admit I've probably had more problems with my HTPC than I've ever had with a Tivo. Then again, I'm in a low percentile group that can fix about 90-95% of any Tivo issues that ever come up without crying to Tivo tech support for help. That's probably why using an HTPC doesn't scare me in the least. If you're less than technically inclined then you should probably stick with your Tivos so you can remain in your safe zone.

Whether not an HTPC is something you might consider is mostly personal prefernce and how much you're willing to push the envelope. It's not everyone's cup of tea. I never surmised I would ever use it as much as I do nor would I have ever imagined it as a replacement for my Tivos. Now I can't imagine life without it, unlike my Tivos (I've got one of them on ebay at this very moment).

Tivos have a limited lifespan, although some of us can keep them up and running indefinitely. There is no such limitation with an HTPC. If a PC dies then you're not going to lose any fees for lifetime service because there simply aren't any fees involved. Chances are a PC can easily be resurrected by replacing one or more components or reinstalling the software. Tivos are limited to replacing the hard drive and/or power supply. If the Tivo mainboard has a problem then you can either buy a complete new unit or get a refurbed one from Tivo. I believe you have the option to transfer lifetime service one time but then you're done. If the replacement dies you can kiss your investment goodbye.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> There isn't a single feature a Tivo can do that an HTPC can't do equally well or better.





mr.unnatural said:


> I don't recall saying that HTPCs were superior


Ummm... thanks for acknowledging in your last post that HTPCs are not the end-all be-all for everyone.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Ummm... thanks for acknowledging in your last post that HTPCs are not the end-all be-all for everyone.


Nor are TiVos.

Horses for courses.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Ummm... thanks for acknowledging in your last post that HTPCs are not the end-all be-all for everyone.


They're definitely not for the technically challenged. Tivos have their advantages and, in some areas, excel over PCs. However, the number of areas where a Tivo outshines a PC is relatively small comapred to the advantages a central HTPC with extenders provides.

The beauty of an HTPC is that if you have a recent model PC with Windows 7 that includes Media Center (virtually all versions include it except the starter version), you already have the foundation for an HTPC. I believe many versions of Vista also include Media Center if you're still using that mistake from Microsoft. You can add in a tuner and you've got yourself a DVR that will easily rival a Tivo in most areas. If you want to expand beyond DVR functionality then the sky's the limit. The only additional hardware requirement may be a new graphics card that is HDCP compliant. You can even get one that supports bitstreaming HD audio from Blu-Ray discs if your audio system supports it.

Chances are the PC you're using to browse these forums can easily be converted to HTPC duties. My recommendation would be to start off with something simple, like adding an inexpensive ATSC tuner, and then see how you like it. I'm guessing that once you try it you'll be tempted to explore other possibilities. Before you know it you'll be hooked like I was, assuming your mind is open to the possibilities it presents. If not, you can always go back to the comfort zone of your Tivo. There's no need for an expensive investment until you decide to buiild a standalone HTPC. In fact, there's no reason why you have to have a dedicated HTPC unless you want it to be the epicenter of your home theater system.

The one big thing that separates an HTPC from a Tivo (there are actually many others) is the ability to play Blu-Ray movies in 1080p and bitstream HD audio. Virtually every other feature included in a Tivo can be performed on any PC. In that regard, an HTPC is superior to a Tivo. Tivos simply cannot support full HD resolution and HD audio available on Blu-Rays. If you're into gaming then an HTPC can also become the ultimate gaming machine. I'd like to see you play Call of Duty on your Tivo while recording multiple HDTV programs and streaming shows and live TV to media extenders around your house.


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## RMBittner (Aug 19, 2003)

larrs said:


> Out of the blue I got a brochure from DirecTV. I haven't had D since 2002 (where I was introduced to Tivo, BTW), but they had a "come back" special so I went to the site and started to look through it and now I am actually cosidering leaving Tivo.


Not much to add to this discussion except that I'm seriously weighing a similar move. We LOVE TiVo -- we have an SD unit and a S3HD unit -- but our cable provider is a small regional player (Broadstripe) that just can't compete when it comes to channels...and especially when it comes to D*'s HD offerings. We would end up paying $8/month more than we're paying now, since our cable modem price will "rise" if we're not getting an Internet/TV package, but that's negligible.

The only thing holding us back at this point is the fact that we LOVE the TiVo UI and the remote. In fact, my wife won't even consider switching until there's a viable TiVo unit for D*. I'm ready to make the sacrifice of a great UI for roughly a hundred additional channels, but I agree with her that it's a hard call. (Other than my iPad, I can't think of another device that we like as well as TiVo.)

But that doesn't stop me from visiting the D* Web site and filling up a cart with my dream setup about once a week. . . I'm just keeping fingers seriously crossed for that long-announced, long-delayed D*/TiVo unit to finally surface. (Looks like it won't be 1Q 2011, though, unless something shocking happens later this week.)

Bob


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Doesn't D* require a one or two year commitment for any service at all?
Don't know about your cable co but mine has bundles that require no commitment, while they guarantee the rate won't increase for a year.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> My HTPC sports four ATSC tuners plus four digital cable tuners via the Ceton card. Tuner availability is rarely a problem in my household.
> 
> FYI - in the very near future the Ceton quad tuner card will no longer be the only option for recording digital cable on your PC. Silicon Dust will have their three-tuner networked HDHomeRun Prime available for only $250. Ceton will also have a USB version of the 4-tuner model as well as 2 and 6-tuner versions.


Thanks for this post. I am not a guru, but certainly have the ability to keep a PC up and running.

OK, this probably makes me rethink yet again, in that most of what we record on a regular basis are network shows which I can get over clear QAM or an antenna added to my mix (and I am wired for). With 8 tuners, I would have at least what I have now.

So, let's have some suggestions. I have one Xbox360, but would be interested in other extenders. Any give Netflix/Amazon/other access except an Xbox?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

larrs said:


> So, let's have some suggestions. I have one Xbox360, but would be interested in other extenders. Any give Netflix/Amazon/other access except an Xbox?


Unfortunately, the XBox 360 is the only extender currently marketed for use with Windows Media Center. The older extenders from Linksys, HP, and others, were developed long before streaming from NetFlix or other sources were available and therefore do not support streaming of net-based content.

There is one other viable option with a PC. SageTV is an add-on media center app for Windows and one or two other operating systems that I'm aware of (Linux and possibly OS X). There is an app called SageDCT that allows the use of the Ceton InfiniTV 4 with SageTV as long as your provider does not flag any of its content and all channels are available as copy freely. Sage has their own extenders that are basically a combination of a Windows media extender and a standalone media player. It allows the sharing of both live and recorded TV from the host PC as well as having the ability to stream content from the net and playback most video formats without the same limitations as a Windows MC extender. Sage also has an app that allows you to use a remote PC as a client rather than having to use an extender.

The one major caveat is that SageTV is a rather complex program to set up in order to fine tune it, but it provides that vast majority of features right out of the box with little or no extra tweaking, or so I'm told. There are tutorials available that can walk you through the setup, but it can get a bit tedious (http://www.missingremote.com/guide/installing-sagetv-v7-0). You might want to check out the SageTV website and support forums for more info. There are 21-day trial versions available for all versions of the SageTV software. SageDCT is a freeware app developed by Andy Van Til.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

larrs said:


> Actually, given the comments, I still do not think the MCE route is affective in a family situaiton (we are a family of four).
> 
> If the MCE is basically a "go to my pc" type connection to the PC, I can see how it would work in a household without kids. However, let's say it is 10pm at night and I want to catch the end of Monday Night Football in my bedroom. However when use the MCE, I see that two programs are recording on two of the tuners. I then see the other two tuners are on channels a and b. I would have to call each of my kids' rooms to see if they are watching those channels to see which tuner I could use to watch football, right?
> 
> I believe the MCE, or some other box, for streaming and watching recorded TV plus a cable box at each Tv for live TV is a better option for a family.


You could probably get by with a free DTA box hooked up to your bedroom TV for situations like this where you just want to fall asleep to the end of a show.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> Tivo has advanced wishlist searches with boolean operators, and MCE does not. All you get is simple keyword WLs on MCE. Makes it very easy for me for schedule sports events on the Tivo where I only want to see the main event and not practices etc.
> 
> I agree that MCE is a good solution for clear QAM channels, that's exactly what I use mine for. Tivo is pretty worthless for digital cable without a card.


MCE wouldn't work for me with OTA. A lot of what I watch is picked up by wish list searches. It saves a lot of time searching through the TV listings.

I wonder why Tivo doesn't incorporate QAM channel mapping like MCE. It would make Tivo a plug and play device for many current users. I guess QAM channel mapping would generate many more customer service calls, because the cable company doesn't guarantee the QAM channels from one day to the next. I wonder what kind of complaints Microsoft gets when the QAM channel disappears. Maybe Tivo could offer QAM channel mapping as some sort of add on that isn't tied directly to the Tivo service.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I'm thinking of leaving too. 

One reason is to use the money to get some other gadget or build myself another 'puter. 

And I figure tech changes so fast that hell Tivo might have a revised DVR out in another year. And cable companies are catching up and have better on-demand systems. I don't want to be stuck with Tivo.

also don't watch a ton of tv shows. Dog bounty HUnter, Breaking Bad, Modern Family, OFfice, Mad Men, First 48, ...those are the ones we watch 100% pretty much. I have a few others i record but rarely or occasionally watch. 

I used to record movies alot with my Series 2 Tivo, but now find myself not doing that because of Netflix which I subscribed too around the same time I got the Premiere last September.

My wife watches mostly Netflix now. MY kids watch their cartoons on it. And I watch movies on it. And get ones on disc as well.

I'm not sure I need a dVR any more. Or am willing to see if I can go without one. I would just get a FIOS box at first. And then get their DVR again if I find I need a DVR.

The only thing I would miss and it's only me, not my kids or wife, is watching sports on my own schedule and skipping commercials and halftime and, even skipping some of the game. IN the case of football sometimes I speed watch and 30 second skip in between plays lets you finish a game in 40 minutes. 

But I could suffer or always get a FIOS DVR for football season. 

It does help that ESPN3 on the xbox lets me watch some on -demand sports. So sometimes I can catch up on a game or match I wanted to see. Quality ain't great, but..

FIOS DVRs have been improved since I had one so it will be good enough. So don't talk me out with that angle. 

I do think the Premiere is the better experience, but I've had to go to SD menus because I couldn't stand lack of responsiveness in the HD menus. 

I would also miss the PRemiere as an Amazon on DEmand box. I used it as one a few times out of the year. I also use it for Netflix once in awhile, but I have 2 other devices on the same tv that do Netflix so no loss. Don't use other Tivo features. 

Anybody want to slap me too and talk me out of it? What can I get for my Premiere with lifetime?


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> I'm thinking of leaving too.
> 
> One reason is to use the money to get some other gadget or build myself another 'puter.
> 
> ...


Well, I decided to stick around for now and keep what is working (for me). If/when I go, I have decided it will be a Media Center solution with both Ceton cablecard and OTA/QAM tuner cards. I will likely use Xbox 360s at each TV (4GB Slims) so I can also get Netflix/Movie rentals in HD, Streaming of my movie collection, etc. on a single box- with gaming thrown in as an "extra". It seems like such a good solution, but I am waiting to do more research to make sure I have the right solution.

I am reading a lot over at the green button...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

larrs said:


> I am reading a lot over at the green button...


Check out The Missing Remote and the Home Theater Computer section at the AVS Forums for some of the best HTPC resources. The Missing Remote has lots of great articles and reviews that will help you get the most our of your HTPC. If you're interested in tweaking your HTPC with lots of extras, check out hack7mc.com. They have tons of great articles on setting things up in Media Center like automatic commercial skipping, codecs, movie libraries, etc.


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## eagle63 (Aug 6, 2009)

Hey guys, thought I'd chime in on this thread too as it's very timely to my situation. I originally was a MythTV guy for about 3 years but finally gave up because it just wasn't a stable or family-friendly system. So for the past 2 1/2 years I've been using TiVo. (Tivo HD model) It's worked very well, and has been extremely reliable which is what I was needing/hoping for after MythTV. (I think in 2 1/2 years I needed to reboot it only twice)

As our family has grown and as we've added TV's, I've been researching ways to expand the Tivo "system" to cover those TV's, and I've come to the conclusion that *Tivo simply doesn't scale* - both from a cost standpoint as well as a technical standpoint.
What I mean by that is: so I want to add a Tivo to my basement TV and my bedroom TV. (my existing Tivo is in the family room) In addition to the cost of each unit, I have to buy a subscription for each one. Plus I now need to buy 2 more cable cards from stupid Comcast. That gets expensive quickly, but the real salt in the wound is there's (at least to my knowledge) STILL no multi-room viewing solution or centralized recording architecture. So if I record something on my basement tivo and want to watch it (or resume watching it) in my bedroom, I need to copy it. (really Tivo, really?? it's 2011.) Uggh. So when we spent 99% of our TV viewing at a single TV, it worked fantastic. But as we've added TV's, the Tivo system completely falls apart conceptually.

So I spent time researching windows media center. (I should add that I'm traditionally not a windows guy at all) For about $450 I built a really quiet, low-power HTPC that has been working great. Stable, functional, and allows me to add Xbox's at each TV. No more ridiculous subscriptions, and a centralized recording structure. This may not be important to some, but one of my goals was to have it be as low-power as possible. My HTPC draws about 30 watts, which is even less than a Tivo. (my tivo would draw about 36 watts) Plus my HTPC will go to sleep when it's not being used, so the total power draw is tiny.

Anyway, I still love Tivo but - for me at least - it just didn't make sense anymore. (and BTW, windows media center certainly isn't perfect or without drawbacks, but so far it's meeting my needs)


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## ITGuy72 (Aug 10, 2005)

I have 2 TivoHDs. Woudl've loved to see scalability:

1) Streaming device to device instead of copying
2) Collaborative recording (2 Tivos? 4 tuners seemlessly working in concert)
3) "Thin" Tivo client a la Media Center extender concept.

I'm on the fence too at this point. I might go back to Media Center soon if things don't progress in at least one of the catagories above.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Yes Tivo scalability sucks when you can get an ATV the size of a hockey puck for $100 and it streams media from Netflix, iTunes and your own computer.

No reason Tivo can't make a $100 extender device. Or partner with Apple or Roku which makes an even cheaper streaming device.

The ATV even has wireless N built in for $100. (I won't even ask what the cost of the official Tivo wireless adapter is.)

But no. IN order to get our shows on another TV we're supposed to buy another $500+ Premiere?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

larrs said:


> Well, I decided to stick around for now and keep what is working (for me). If/when I go, I have decided it will be a Media Center solution with both Ceton cablecard and OTA/QAM tuner cards. I will likely use Xbox 360s at each TV (4GB Slims) so I can also get Netflix/Movie rentals in HD, Streaming of my movie collection, etc. on a single box- with gaming thrown in as an "extra". It seems like such a good solution, but I am waiting to do more research to make sure I have the right solution.
> 
> I am reading a lot over at the green button...


Yeah been thinking about Ceton or another cablecard tuner that is due to be released.

But that solution has its own problems. The Ceton card is expensive. It's realiability unknown.

The Media Extenders suck - 360s as media extenders just don't look appealing to me and certainly not to wife and maybe my younger kids.

360s as media extender are also power hungry overkill. I don't believe they "sleep" either.

WMC needs an ATV-like solution.

Plus hasn't Microsoft decided to change directions with WMC? They are now going the embedded route as I understand it. You'll see dedicated WMC consumer electronics devices instead of pcs.

So not sure if there is a future for the WMC software on computers.

I guess the reason I am considering leaving is that I have this $500 device hooked up to my TV and I seem to use it less than ever since we got Netflix. Maybe I should cash that in before the tech changes again or gets upgraded and do something else with that dough.

Anyway bouncing the thought around in my head. And the closer to $500 an offer is for my Premiere the more serious I become about leaving. 

OH and the thing about Netflix is I'm getting so used to not even scheduling shows to record and making sure I have storage space left etc. It's hard to believe, but it's even easier than Tivo.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah been thinking about Ceton or another cablecard tuner that is due to be released.
> 
> But that solution has its own problems. The Ceton card is expensive. It's realiability unknown.


I've had my Ceton since August and it's been working beautifully. Ceton Tech Support goes the extra mile when it comes to helping InfiniTV owners. Check out The Green Button forums and you'll find lots of threads about the Ceton card, but relatively few problems.



> The Media Extenders suck - 360s as media extenders just don't look appealing to me and certainly not to wife and maybe my younger kids.
> 
> 360s as media extender are also power hungry overkill. I don't believe they "sleep" either.


Media extenders aren't without their drawbacks, but I think too many people expect them to do way more than what they're designed for. If you think of them as a basic DVR then you've got them in the right perspective. The latest X-Box 360 slim models are supposed to use way less power than the older models. I always shut mine off when I'm done as they only take about 30 seconds or so to boot up.



> Plus hasn't Microsoft decided to change directions with WMC? They are now going the embedded route as I understand it. You'll see dedicated WMC consumer electronics devices instead of pcs.
> 
> So not sure if there is a future for the WMC software on computers.


I've heard rumors to that effect but there's no reason why you'd ever have to upgrade your HTPC from the current configuration, except in the case of a hardware failure. That being said, you should be able to keep your HTPC viable for many years to come. No doubt a newer technology will come along that's better and we'll all migrate towards it down the road. For now, Media Center still offers a lot of advantages.



> I guess the reason I am considering leaving is that I have this $500 device hooked up to my TV and I seem to use it less than ever since we got Netflix. Maybe I should cash that in before the tech changes again or gets upgraded and do something else with that dough.
> 
> Anyway bouncing the thought around in my head. And the closer to $500 an offer is for my Premiere the more serious I become about leaving.
> 
> OH and the thing about Netflix is I'm getting so used to not even scheduling shows to record and making sure I have storage space left etc. It's hard to believe, but it's even easier than Tivo.


I've also got Netflix, but I don't use their streaming service. I've yet to find an online service that even comes close to the quality of an actual Blu-Ray disc. It may be convenient, but I got into HDTV for quality, not convenience. I've heard rumors that Netflix may be ditching disc media and going with a strictly streaming service. If that day ever comes, I'll be switching to RedBox.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I've also got Netflix, but I don't use their streaming service. I've yet to find an online service that even comes close to the quality of an actual Blu-Ray disc. It may be convenient, but I got into HDTV for quality, not convenience. I've heard rumors that Netflix may be ditching disc media and going with a strictly streaming service. If that day ever comes, I'll be switching to RedBox.


Interestingly enough, the Netflix implementation on the Xbox is way, way ahead of Tivo's. So, an Xbox as MCE has other benefits (not to mention the gaming aspect).


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## eagle63 (Aug 6, 2009)

larrs said:


> Interestingly enough, the Netflix implementation on the Xbox is way, way ahead of Tivo's. So, an Xbox as MCE has other benefits (not to mention the gaming aspect).


Is there an implementation of Netflix that's any worse than Tivo's?? 

The big problem with Netflix on the Xbox, however, is that you have to pay for an Xbox live account, which is completely ridiculous. Also, if your'e using the Xbox as a media extender you need to leave the media center "app" and back out to the xbox menus to get into Netflix.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Plus the Xbox has espn3.com access, which can be huge if you're a big sports fan. But as you said, paying $40-50 a year for Xbox Live Gold gets expensive if you need to have it on more than one box.

I think the Xbox is probably the best WMC extender due to its speed and add-ons, but it is slow to boot into MC, still makes noise, and still draws way too much power to leave on all the time. Plus it's not a very good movie player, so you're limited to watching live and recorded TV (for the most part) in MC. You can work around this by transcoding files into supported formats, however.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I've had my Ceton since August and it's been working beautifully. Ceton Tech Support goes the extra mile when it comes to helping InfiniTV owners. Check out The Green Button forums and you'll find lots of threads about the Ceton card, but relatively few problems.


Good to hear. Still not much of a track record yet though.



mr.unnatural said:


> Media extenders aren't without their drawbacks, but I think too many people expect them to do way more than what they're designed for. If you think of them as a basic DVR then you've got them in the right perspective. The latest X-Box 360 slim models are supposed to use way less power than the older models. I always shut mine off when I'm done as they only take about 30 seconds or so to boot up.


I know what an extender is. I have an ATV which is essentially an extender. But it's tiny, quiet and uses next to no power in sleep mode and wakes up quickly.

360 Slims still use alot of power, are quite a bit bigger, and noisier and have a longer boot up time. I have a 360 Slim too. I would find the boot up annoying.



mr.unnatural said:


> I've heard rumors to that effect but there's no reason why you'd ever have to upgrade your HTPC from the current configuration, except in the case of a hardware failure. That being said, you should be able to keep your HTPC viable for many years to come. No doubt a newer technology will come along that's better and we'll all migrate towards it down the road. For now, Media Center still offers a lot of advantages.


True. Still when you haven't bought into yet it's not good to hear that support for WMC is going to go away.



mr.unnatural said:


> I've also got Netflix, but I don't use their streaming service. I've yet to find an online service that even comes close to the quality of an actual Blu-Ray disc. It may be convenient, but I got into HDTV for quality, not convenience. I've heard rumors that Netflix may be ditching disc media and going with a strictly streaming service. If that day ever comes, I'll be switching to RedBox.


IF TVs stayed sd but you could get a much larger screen that was a few inches thin and hung from your wall wouldn't you bite? I would. So I got my hdtv more than just for hd.

And I'd put convenience right up there as well although it has nothing to do with the tv itself. It's part of something like Netflix or iTunes or Amazon on Demand.

I guess for me once the picture gets to a good enough point it stops being a big factor for me. DVD-quality is fine. Probably why I haven't bothered to grab a BR player yet.

This brings to mind one good reason to not want streaming to become the defacto way to watch tv. You can skip commercials with a Tivo. But will you be able to skip commercials in streamed video? Something tells me you won't be able to.

Anyway my urge to ditch Tivo has subsided for now. It's still there, but I didn't get any bites on my Premiere on craigslist so it died down a bit. I'll probably list on Ebay for a price that would get me to ditch Tivo, but not holding out alot of hope my price will be accepted by anyone.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> Good to hear. Still not much of a track record yet though.


Considering the amount of time it's been available it's been holding it's own quite well. I have yet to hear any major compaints about the device. Ceton performed extensive beta testing before bringing it to market to make sure there weren't going to be any major surprises. They really did their homework on this one.



> 360 Slims still use alot of power, are quite a bit bigger, and noisier and have a longer boot up time. I have a 360 Slim too. I would find the boot up annoying.


I must have more patience than you (actually, I have more than most people I've met). The 360 slim is a still power hog, but much less of one than it's predecessors. It's why I shut it down when not in use. It starts getting warm if left on for extended periods and the fan gets pretty loud. The XBox is a better extender, but the Linksys and HP extenders are nearly dead silent.



> True. Still when you haven't bought into yet it's not good to hear that support for WMC is going to go away.


The jury's still out on that. I have yet to hear anything firm one way or the other about WMC and future releases of Windows.



> stayed sd but you could get a much larger screen that was a few inches thin and hung from your wall wouldn't you bite? I would. So I got my hdtv more than just for hd.


I sincerely doubt that I would. I've had big screen SDTVs in the past and they pretty much sucked when it came to picture quality. OTOH, SDTV never looked as good on my older TVs as it does on my 60" HDTV. Still, I probably wouldn't buy a flat screen just to use for SDTV unless HDTV wasn't available.



> And I'd put convenience right up there as well although it has nothing to do with the tv itself. It's part of something like Netflix or iTunes or Amazon on Demand.


This is where I differ from most people. Convenience will always take a back seat to quality with me. I'm an old school high-end audio geek and I've gotten used to uncompromised quality in home entertainment. I simply do not see the point in investing in high end gear just so I can feed it crap source material. Where's the enjoyment in that? If I have a choice between watching low quality material or reading a book I'll grab my reading glasses every time.



> I guess for me once the picture gets to a good enough point it stops being a big factor for me. DVD-quality is fine. Probably why I haven't bothered to grab a BR player yet.


It's also why the vast majority of the population is fine with mediocre quality in audio and video (why else would Bose speakers be so popular?). Frankly, I'm amazed that HDTV has gotten such widespread acceptance from a mass market that thrives on mediocrity. On a big screen HDTV with a quality surround system, Blu-Ray will blow away anything you can watch on DVD. DVD is nothing more than NTSC broadcast quality with a 5.1 soundtrack so you've never really gotten away from SDTV. I can stream ripped Blu-Ray movies from my 20TB unRAID server to my HTPC in full 1080p with HD audio.



> This brings to mind one good reason to not want streaming to become the defacto way to watch tv. You can skip commercials with a Tivo. But will you be able to skip commercials in streamed video? Something tells me you won't be able to.


I have an app on my HTPC that automatically detects commercials and allows me to either skip them manually with a single button press or have them skip automatically with no interaction from me. I can also toggle the function on and off with a single button press on my remote. With a Tivo you have to hit the 30-second skip button repeatedly and hope you don't skip past the end of the commercial break without having to rewind a few seconds to see what you missed.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Sorry for the duplicate post. Forum software was acting flaky.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

RMBittner said:


> The only thing holding us back at this point is the fact that we LOVE the TiVo UI and the remote. In fact, my wife won't even consider switching until there's a viable TiVo unit for D*.


For what it's worth, it takes about a week to get used to a Harmony universal remote (to the point where you don't have to look down at the buttons), and then you have additional features that the Tivo remotes don't have.

http://www.logitech.com/en-us/remotes/universal-remotes


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

BrettStah said:


> For what it's worth, it takes about a week to get used to a Harmony universal remote (to the point where you don't have to look down at the buttons), and then you have additional features that the Tivo remotes don't have.
> 
> http://www.logitech.com/en-us/remotes/universal-remotes


Once you get used to the Tivo Slide, it is hard to give up. The harmony doesnt have a qwerty keyboard, correct?


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

larrs said:


> Once you get used to the Tivo Slide, it is hard to give up. The harmony doesnt have a qwerty keyboard, correct?


Hmmm... haven't looked for that feature. I don't recall seeing any Harmony remotes with QWERTY keyboards. However, if you switch to DirecTV DVRs, I'm not sure how useful a QWERTY keyboard would be.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

BrettStah said:


> Hmmm... haven't looked for that feature. I don't recall seeing any Harmony remotes with QWERTY keyboards. However, if you switch to DirecTV DVRs, I'm not sure how useful a QWERTY keyboard would be.


A QWERTY keyboard would definitely come in handy if you use Tivo's search function often. Personally, I like Lenovo's little keyboard/trackball remote for use with my HTPC. I use a basic MCE remote for most functions within Media Center but the Lenovo remote allows me to type without resorting to a full-sized wireless keyboard. The integrated trackball provides mouse functions that I can easily control with my thumb. I used to have a Logitech DiNovo Mini keyboard but it felt like I was trying to text on a cell phone all the time. The Lenovo keys are much easier to use.


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## mercurial (Oct 17, 2002)

At least with DTV remotes/recovers you can do T9 style text entry. Something I never understood why TiVo didn't support. I can actually enter text fairly quickly that way - faster than scrolling around the TiVo onscreen text entry "keyboard" - though not faster than using one of the iPhone apps to enter the text.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> It's also why the vast majority of the population is fine with mediocre quality in audio and video (why else would Bose speakers be so popular?).


That's the thing though. DVD-quality is not mediocre quality.  IT's quite good. Just not the very best.

People also know you pay a premium for the very best and that the cost of electronics falls and the best isn't still the best in 6 months so they aren't in a hurry.

Plus sht is so much better nowadays than it ever was back when.

Movie studios also make it easier for me not get a BR player when they price a BR much higher than a DVD for no good reason. 



mr.unnatural said:


> Frankly, I'm amazed that HDTV has gotten such widespread acceptance from a mass market that thrives on mediocrity.


I'm not. That's why I say even if flat screen tvs weren't a better resolution folks would still buy them. That's because they are massive space savers even with a bigger screen. I moved across the country 2 years ago and was happy to leave my 32" 200+ lb Sony Trinitron behemoth behind.  NOt to mention more efficient as well.

And the mainstream doesn't thrive on mediocrity. They want the best bang for the buck.



mr.unnatural said:


> On a big screen HDTV with a quality surround system, Blu-Ray will blow away anything you can watch on DVD. DVD is nothing more than NTSC broadcast quality with a 5.1 soundtrack so you've never really gotten away from SDTV. I can stream ripped Blu-Ray movies from my 20TB unRAID server to my HTPC in full 1080p with HD audio.


Yeah yeah. Blows away meaning a bit better. 

And DVD is higher quality than much of what the cable company puts out.



mr.unnatural said:


> I have an app on my HTPC that automatically detects commercials and allows me to either skip them manually with a single button press or have them skip automatically with no interaction from me. I can also toggle the function on and off with a single button press on my remote. With a Tivo you have to hit the 30-second skip button repeatedly and hope you don't skip past the end of the commercial break without having to rewind a few seconds to see what you missed.


That's cool. I'm just talking about the future when tv is streamed on-demand. It seems to me the networks should be pushing this big time because it means no commercial skipping.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> That's the thing though. DVD-quality is not mediocre quality.  IT's quite good. Just not the very best.


DVD resolution is 720x480, the same as NTSC broadcast TV (i.e., standard definition). DVDs look better only because the broadcast signal gets hosed by the time it reaches your TV set. Signal quality for SDTV has improved immensely since they switched to digital TV.



> Movie studios also make it easier for me not get a BR player when they price a BR much higher than a DVD for no good reason.


That's why I have an unRAID server, AnyDVD HD and a NetFlix subscription. Since I rarely watch a movie more than once it's rip, watch, and delete. RedBox is also a great deal at only $1.50 per Blu-Ray rental per night. I stopped collecting hard copies of movies years ago because they are costly and just take up too much space. If I want to watch a movie more than once I'll just rent it again. I'd have to watch a movie about a dozen times just to break even on the purchase price vs. just renting the disc. That's just never going to happen.



> I'm not. That's why I say even if flat screen tvs weren't a better resolution folks would still buy them. That's because they are massive space savers even with a bigger screen. I moved across the country 2 years ago and was happy to leave my 32" 200+ lb Sony Trinitron behemoth behind.  NOt to mention more efficient as well.


Can't argue with that. Flat screens are becoming the norm and they do look better in a room than a huge CRT set.



> And the mainstream doesn't thrive on mediocrity. They want the best bang for the buck.


Really? Then how do you explain the proliferation of poor quality streaming services and small-screen TV displays used for watching videos (i.e., iPods, smart phones, PSPs, etc.)? Convenience will always win out over quality, except for those that demand only the very best. "Best bang for the buck" can be interpreted differently by different people. Lots of people think Bose speakers are the "best bang for the buck" whereas someone with more discerning tastes wouldn't be caught in the same room with them. Quality is in the eyes and ears of the beholder. If you don't know what to listen or look for then mediocre becomes your reference.



> Yeah yeah. Blows away meaning a bit better.


The difference between DVD and Blu-Ray on a properly calibrated display is quite astonishing. DVD looks OK, but Blu-Ray with HD audio is downright amazing. The bigger the display, the more noticeable the difference. I have a 60" Sony HDTV and the difference is far more evident than on my 42" flat screen. Higher resolution is much less discernible with smaller displays. Since you aren't "blown away" by the difference I can only assume you have a smaller display on which to view your material. If you really want to see how much better Blu-Ray looks then see if you can find an A/V showroom with an HDTV projector and a 10' screen. You may never want to go back to your old monitor.



> And DVD is higher quality than much of what the cable company puts out.


I assume you're rerferring to standard def broadcasts. If you can't see the difference between DVD and HDTV then you've either got a serious problem with your cable provider or you need to get your eyeglass prescription changed.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

I'll only say that DVD quality is far superior to the SD quality people are used to seeing. And, I will second the thought that if you cannot tell the difference between HD and DVD, you do indeed need to have your eyes checked.

That being said, I also read that the average HDTV size in the US (smaller elsewhere in the world) is 35" (probably a medium between a 32 and 37 LCD). On that size set from normal family room seating, the difference is such that the only thing that will drive one to the superior medium is either the same cost or superior content. Unfortunately, the content is more expensive, so the migration will be slow. In fact, even with Redbox, the rental is 50% more expensive. If I am taking that disc home to view on a 37" set in the family room, I will opt for the DVD. If it is to be played on my 100" screen, it is worth the extra $.

I believe this is one reason that 3D is being pushed heavily by the CE companies. 3D is one "extra" that Blu Ray/HD has that DVD never will. And, it is synergistic for them in that once it is embraced, it is only "worth it" on a bigger set (with higher margins).


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Plus Bluray doesn't have the ability anamorphic content. Most movies on bluray are going to have black bars on the top and bottom. The only way to get rid of the black bars is to zoom the picture. On the other hand, DVD has the ability to store anamorphic content.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> Plus Bluray doesn't have the ability anamorphic content. Most movies on bluray are going to have black bars on the top and bottom. The only way to get rid of the black bars is to zoom the picture. On the other hand, DVD has the ability to store anamorphic content.


The black bars are the result of the displayed image having an aspect ratio greater than 16:9 (or 1.78:1, if you prefer), which is the standard ratio for HDTV displays and HDTV broadcasts. I'll never understand why people complain about the ability to see the entire image that was presented in the theatrical release. They somehow feel cheated because the entire screen isn't being used. The fact is, when you zoom to fill the screen you lose the sides of the image. If you stretch the image to fill the screen you get a distorted picture. Check out almost any older syndicated show broadcast during the day on TNT (it might actually be TBS as I haven't viewed either during the day in quite some time) to see what "Stretch-o-Vision" looks like. Trust me, it's far more annoying than a letterbox image. Most movies released on Blu-Ray have an aspect ratio only slightly higher than 16:9 so the black bars are usually minimal at best. Altering the image in any way from the original just proves my point about the public settling for mediocrity. The vast majority of them don't even have a clue what they're looking at. Enthusiasts will always prefer a widescreen letterbox version of a movie over pan and scan, hands down.

FWIW, anamorphic video on DVD was meant to take advantage of the wider screens available with 16:9 HDTVs. Blu-Ray doesn't use it because it was never meant to be displayed on a 4:3 standard definition screen. You couldn't do it anyway without downrezzing the image from 1920x1080p to 720x480, which defeats the purpose of having Blu-Ray altogether. There was a valid reason for leaving it out of both the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray standards.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'll never understand why people complain about the ability to see the entire image that was presented in the theatrical release. They somehow feel cheated because the entire screen isn't being used.


Because when you go to the theater to watch a movie it's much larger than your TV, but when you watch the movie at home on Bluray, the picture is smaller than most other HD shows.



mr.unnatural said:


> The fact is, when you zoom to fill the screen you lose the sides of the image. If you stretch the image to fill the screen you get a distorted picture.


I'd rather have a distorted picture and no black bars.



mr.unnatural said:


> Check out almost any older syndicated show broadcast during the day on TNT (it might actually be TBS as I haven't viewed either during the day in quite some time) to see what "Stretch-o-Vision" looks like. Trust me, it's far more annoying than a letterbox image.


They are stretching the picture horizontally to get rid of black bars on the side. With bluray you need to stretch the picture vertically. I don't object to the stretching.



mr.unnatural said:


> Altering the image in any way from the original just proves my point about the public settling for mediocrity. The vast majority of them don't even have a clue what they're looking at. Enthusiasts will always prefer a wide screen letterbox version of a movie over pan and scan, hands down.


True enthusiasts complain about the non anamorphic Bluray content. They purchase special lenses for their projectors to stretch the picture to fill the screen. They would say you are settling for mediocrity by watching the black bars.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> Because when you go to the theater to watch a movie it's much larger than your TV, but when you watch the movie at home on Bluray, the picture is smaller than most other HD shows.
> 
> I'd rather have a distorted picture and no black bars.
> 
> They are stretching the picture horizontally to get rid of black bars on the side. With bluray you need to stretch the picture vertically. I don't object to the stretching.


I sincerely hope you're joking and simply forgot to insert the proper emoticons. All of the above reinforces what I've been saying all along. People are happy watching crap as long as they feel they're getting what they paid for (i.e., a full-screen display). There is no need to stretch the picture vertically unless you feel compelled to watch TV that looks like it was produced in the Funhouse at the local amusement park. You are the prime example of the general population settling for mediocrity. If we had more people that felt the same way you do we'd never see any advances in the state of the art for A/V entertainment. You obviously have no clue what you're looking at.



> True enthusiasts complain about the non anamorphic Bluray content. They purchase special lenses for their projectors to stretch the picture to fill the screen. They would say you are settling for mediocrity by watching the black bars.


I don't know what circles you're traveling in, but where I come from no true enthusiast would ever settle for a distorted image.

Here's a tip for you - if the size of the image on Blu-Ray is what bothers you, get a bigger TV.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Really? Then how do you explain the proliferation of poor quality streaming services and small-screen TV displays used for watching videos (i.e., iPods, smart phones, PSPs, etc.)? Convenience will always win out over quality, except for those that demand only the very best. "Best bang for the buck" can be interpreted differently by different people. Lots of people think Bose speakers are the "best bang for the buck" whereas someone with more discerning tastes wouldn't be caught in the same room with them. Quality is in the eyes and ears of the beholder. If you don't know what to listen or look for then mediocre becomes your reference.


Yes and some folks define mediocre and poor etc differently too. I'm watching my shows in b&w in the middle of nowhere on a 1" screen with rabbit ears and a scrambled picture at least if you listen to how some folks talk.



mr.unnatural said:


> The difference between DVD and Blu-Ray on a properly calibrated display is quite astonishing. DVD looks OK, but Blu-Ray with HD audio is downright amazing. The bigger the display, the more noticeable the difference. I have a 60" Sony HDTV and the difference is far more evident than on my 42" flat screen. Higher resolution is much less discernible with smaller displays. Since you aren't "blown away" by the difference I can only assume you have a smaller display on which to view your material. If you really want to see how much better Blu-Ray looks then see if you can find an A/V showroom with an HDTV projector and a 10' screen. You may never want to go back to your old monitor.


AGain some folks define blown away differently than others. Some folks like to exaggerate.

And yeah with smaller screens and sitting distance many aren't going to get the full benefits of BR. Another reason not to bother.

I've gone through lots of transitions in tech and you know what? The tech gets better, but the movies don't.

I don't feel like today oh I'm so much more excited to see a movie than 20 years ago. I feel about the same. Although less likely to be entertained by the summer blockbuster than I once was. Maybe part of the reason for my lethargy for BR and tv tech.



mr.unnatural said:


> I assume you're rerferring to standard def broadcasts. If you can't see the difference between DVD and HDTV then you've either got a serious problem with your cable provider or you need to get your eyeglass prescription changed.


It depends on the source material, your cable company and the channel/show. PLus distance from tv and screen size.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> You obviously have no clue what you're looking at.


That's priceless coming from someone who stares at black bars.



mr.unnatural said:


> I don't know what circles you're traveling in, but where I come from no true enthusiast would ever settle for a distorted image.


Maybe not, but they won't settle for black bars either.



mr.unnatural said:


> Here's a tip for you - if the size of the image on Blu-Ray is what bothers you, get a bigger TV.


No matter how big the TV is, the Bluray movie will look relatively smaller than a regular TV show.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> That's priceless coming from someone who stares at black bars.
> 
> Maybe not, but they won't settle for black bars either.
> 
> No matter how big the TV is, the Bluray movie will look relatively smaller than a regular TV show.


You just can't seem to get past the black bars, can you? If they bother you, why not just get something to cover them up? How do you think you see movies with varying aspect ratios in the theater? They raise the screen to eliminate the blank area at the bottom and and lower the curtain at the top of the screen to cover the area that doesn't have an image being projected on it. A TV has a fixed screen so you can't change the physical dimensions of the viewing area, hence the black bars.

I don't mind the black bars because I know that what I'm seeing is the exact same image that was projected on the big screen in the theater. In fact, I'd prefer to watch a letterboxed movie than one that fills the entire screen if the original aspect ratio is greater than 1.78:1. FYI - every movie and home theater enthusiast I've ever talked to prefers letterboxed movies over pan and scan or truncated movies made to fit a fixed aspect ratio so whoever you're talking to is definitely not a true enthusiast. Check out a high end home theater store sometime (something other than Magnolia Hi-Fi at your local Best Buy) and talk to both the clientele and the sales people and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Chances are if you tell them how you like to watch TV you'll soon be standing in the room by yourself.

The black bars disappear into the background and become completely unnoticeable to me so they don't deter from my enjoyment of the movie the least little bit. The only thing I'm seeing is the movie. The black bars become nothing more than white noise and completely disappear from my mind. You just need to get over the mental block you've created regarding the black bars because it is all in your head. When you see the black bars that's all you can think about so you have to destroy the image to get rid of them. It's kind of like killing the dog because his barking annoys you. You eliminated the barking but now you have a dead dog on your hands.

The only way to see a widescreen movie without any black bars would be to have a display screen that is the exact same dimensions as the original aspect ratio of the movie. Since movies tend to vary in aspect ratio, you'd need a different set for each screen size. Not exactly a practical solution. Distorting the image to fill the screen is not only more annoying to me but a complete travesty.

OTOH, if that's how you like watching TV then knock yourself out. In your case, ignorance must indeed be bliss. You'd make a stellar Best Buy employee.


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## HerbieHightower (Nov 10, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> The only way to see a widescreen movie without any black bars would be to have a display screen that is the exact same dimensions as the original aspect ratio of the movie. Since movies tend to vary in aspect ratio, you'd need a different set for each screen size. Not exactly a practical solution. Distorting the image to fill the screen is not only more annoying to me but a complete travesty.


I have to agree. I have just a 40" screen and Blu-ray just blows away DVD. HD audio is also fantastic!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> How do you think you see movies with varying aspect ratios in the theater? They raise the screen to eliminate the blank area at the bottom and and lower the curtain at the top of the screen to cover the area that doesn't have an image being projected on it.


Yes, but the screen is still so much bigger than a TV that I don't notice the difference.



mr.unnatural said:


> every movie and home theater enthusiast I've ever talked to prefers letterboxed movies over pan and scan or truncated movies made to fit a fixed aspect ratio


You can't say that anymore after talking to me.



mr.unnatural said:


> It's kind of like killing the dog because his barking annoys you. You eliminated the barking but now you have a dead dog on your hands.


Poor analogy. There is no comparison between killing a living breathing animal and eliminating black bars from a TV picture. You've jumped into the deep end on this one.



mr.unnatural said:


> if that's how you like watching TV then knock yourself out. In your case, ignorance must indeed be bliss. You'd make a stellar Best Buy employee.


Your spiel is similar to what a best buy employee told me. Go figure.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> Yes, but the screen is still so much bigger than a TV that I don't notice the difference.


You don't notice the difference because you can't see it. Is the screen really bigger in a theater than my TV? Wow, did you come by that observation all on your own? You seem to be obsessed with size. I wonder what that's all about.



> You can't say that anymore after talking to me.


I can say it even more emphatically after talking to you.  You are not the enthusiast you try and make yourself out to be. We obviously have different interpretations of what that entails.



> Poor analogy. There is no comparison between killing a living breathing animal and eliminating black bars from a TV picture. You've jumped into the deep end on this one.


It's called a metaphor, genius.



> Your spiel is similar to what a best buy employee told me. Go figure.


And you no doubt hung on his every word and took it as gospel.

The bottom line here is that you can watch your TV with black bars or without or however you want. Nobody really cares. Just don't try to tell everyone that only real enthusiasts like to butcher the image just because they feel insecure about black bars on their TV. If you were the actual enthusiast that you claim to be then you'd demand to see all of the original image as it was shown in the theater. I'd love to see you try and watch a stretched version of Ben Hur on your TV if it's on DVD in the original aspect ratio.

How about this - if you really believe people like watching stretched images vs. letterboxed then why don't you set up a new thread with a poll? I think you'd be shocked by the results. OTOH, there are a lot of misinformed people like you that somehow feel cheated if they don't have an image illuminating every pixel on their TV display. If they come out on top then it only further reinforces what I've been saying all along.


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## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

Interesting discussion about Media Center PCs and extenders. Our family has just completely cut the cord from cable / satellite. We had been D* subscribers for the last couple of years and cable for years before that. both are good services. No complaints as to each. 

I wanted to see if we could get the same content at less of a monthly cost. The solution had to be family friendly and easy to use.

My initial thought was a Media Center PC for both OTA and internet streaming. Minimal requirements was dual OTA tuners and 1080p through HDMI (I know HD content would be 720p or 1080i). For a PC that would be very good for gaming to build it myself would cost about $800. For a low power consumption PC that was just for recording OTA and streaming internet, about $400.

In the end I decided on an old Tivo Series3 for OTA and a Roku for internet streaming. Since I have an old Series 2 with lifetime, the Tivo Series 3 cost a total of $406 (106 to buy an old "new" unused unit and 300 lifetime). Roku XDL was $100.

The family loves the TIVO interface and Roku is a simply amazing device. (I would recommend getting a Roku even if one stays with satellite or cable.) With the Roku we stream Netflix and Hulu Plus. Netflix has over 18,000 shows / movies available for streaming (and constantly rotate what is available). As long as you have 4mb d/l, the HD quality is very good. (Looks the same as D*, which was better than cable). Roku also has a lot of other channels. The amount of quality content on the internet is simply amazing.

The Tivo S3 is great for OTA. We live in the suburbs of a major city and have 12 HD OTA channels available. Can recieve all the OTA channels with a $27 antenna mounted in the attic.

With D* we recorded 40 series on a regular basis. With OTA and internet streaming, 35 of those shows are available (most have the most recent showings).

We went from $84 / month with D* to $17 / month for TV. Savings of 67 / month. With cost of roku (100) and Tivo S3 with lifetime (406), we will recoup that cost in 8 months. After that it is a savings of $67 / month or $804 / year.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

There are quite a few good media players out there. The Roku is but one of many. If media players interest you then you might want to check out the comparison chart at The Missing Remote website. Be advised that the features list may not be 100% accurate for all models. I bought a Patriot Box Office based on the guide and found out later that it does not play Blu-Ray iso's as I thought it would. OTOH, the guide said it could not play Blu-Rays ripped to folders, but it actually does so quite well.

I built my first HTPC to supplement my DirecTV subscription. Regardless of what they advertise, DirecTV does not provide all available locals in any given area. They also limit you to a single market. I live between Baltimore and DC so there's a wealth of HD OTA stations to watch and record. An HTPC with multiple ATSC tuners was the perfect fit for my setup. I eventually added more features and capabilities to my HTPC, such as DVD and Blu-Ray playback with full HD audio. When the Ceton InfiniTV4 tuner became available, I was finally able to cut the cord and ditch all of my rented Verizon hardware except for a single cablecard. Aside from the FIOS program package (currently $40.99 per month for HD Xtreme) I only pay $3.99 for one cablecard on a monthly basis.

I also get NetFlix, but only for the actual disc rentals. I've tried NetFlix for streaming, as well as several other providers, and found them all to be severely lacking in both audio and video quality. Nothing I've seen to date holds a candle to Blu-Ray with HD audio. With Hulu you have to sit through commercials, which defeats the purpose of owning a DVR, IMHO. I can watch a 1-hour program, sans commercials, in about 42 minutes, which leaves me more time for other things.


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## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> I also get NetFlix, but only for the actual disc rentals. I've tried NetFlix for streaming, as well as several other providers, and found them all to be severely lacking in both audio and video quality. Nothing I've seen to date holds a candle to Blu-Ray with HD audio.


If the benchmark is Blu Ray, nothing will compare and it will look poor in comparison. I find Netflix HD streaming to be equivalent to D* HD broadcast.



mr.unnatural said:


> With Hulu you have to sit through commercials, which defeats the purpose of owning a DVR, IMHO. I can watch a 1-hour program, sans commercials, in about 42 minutes, which leaves me more time for other things.


It depends on your perspective. If I was subscribing to D* or cable or FIOS, then I would be upset with Hulu plus commercials. However, since we are paying so much less for TV, I can put up with 10 or 15 second commercials every 10 minutes.

Also,now in watching live OTA, we do not mind commercials as much. Again, it probably has to do with the fact that OTA is free as opposed to a paid source for that "live" feed.

Lastly, it is surprising how much TV we watched is actually available OTA. My familys biggest worry was that they would not longer be able to see Everybody Loves Raymond. Local HD OTA station broadcasts it two times / day (at odd hours). With the TIVO, we will have a 25 show recorded bank in very little time.

The biggest negative is live sports. Fortunately our MLB team is on OTA 55 times this years. We also already have an XBOX 360 with a gold subscription. There is a lot of live sports in HD on ESPN on the 360.


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## HerbieHightower (Nov 10, 2007)

rayik said:


> In the end I decided on an old Tivo Series3 for OTA and a Roku for internet streaming. Since I have an old Series 2 with lifetime, the Tivo Series 3 cost a total of $406 (106 to buy an old "new" unused unit and 300 lifetime). Roku XDL was $100.


My Roku has been one thing that I have never regretted buying. They are really nice.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> And you no doubt hung on his every word and took it as gospel


Wrong again. You're the one in lock step with the Best Buy salesman



mr.unnatural said:


> It's called a metaphor, genius


Wrong again. You made a very poor analogy to over state your case.



mr.unnatural said:


> The bottom line here is that you can watch your TV with black bars or without or however you want. Nobody really cares.


Wrong again. You obviously care very deeply.



mr.unnatural said:


> Just don't try to tell everyone that only real enthusiasts like to butcher the image just because they feel insecure about black bars on their TV.


I never said that. I'm just stating my preference. You're the one trying to dictate what an enthusiast should prefer. I said enthusiasts complain about the black bars. Why do you keep over stating your case?



mr.unnatural said:


> I'd love to see you try and watch a stretched version of Ben Hur on your TV if it's on DVD in the original aspect ratio.


I've actually tried this and I agree with you. The picture was too distorted for me. For most movies I don't mind stretching the picture to a certain degree.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't mind the black bars because I know that what I'm seeing is the exact same image that was projected on the big screen in the theater. In fact, I'd prefer to watch a letterboxed movie than one that fills the entire screen if the original aspect ratio is greater than 1.78:1.


I feel the same way. I don't have an HDTV yet, but I am watching on a decent sized SDTV. Guess how I watch broadcast material...
That's right, letterboxed. I would rather have the black bars than see a distorted or cropped image, and I don't think that will change when I get an HDTV.

...and I don't consider myself an A/V  snob enthusiast.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

steve614 said:


> I would rather have the black bars than see a distorted or cropped image, and I don't think that will change when I get an HDTV.


I wouldn't want to watch a cropped image either. I would watch the letterboxed image before I would watch the cropped image.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

rayik said:


> If the benchmark is Blu Ray, nothing will compare and it will look poor in comparison. I find Netflix HD streaming to be equivalent to D* HD broadcast.


Blu-Ray is most definitely my benchmark. If I can watch a movie on Blu-ray vs. streamed content from NetFlix or any other source, Blu-ray wins out every time.



> It depends on your perspective. If I was subscribing to D* or cable or FIOS, then I would be upset with Hulu plus commercials. However, since we are paying so much less for TV, I can put up with 10 or 15 second commercials every 10 minutes.
> 
> Also,now in watching live OTA, we do not mind commercials as much. Again, it probably has to do with the fact that OTA is free as opposed to a paid source for that "live" feed.


The only thing I watch live anymore is sporting events. I've even gotten to the point where I delay watching the start of a football game by 30-40 minutes just so I can skip past the commercials.



> Lastly, it is surprising how much TV we watched is actually available OTA. My familys biggest worry was that they would not longer be able to see Everybody Loves Raymond. Local HD OTA station broadcasts it two times / day (at odd hours). With the TIVO, we will have a 25 show recorded bank in very little time.


Exactly. I always have a backlog of shows to watch, which is why I rarely watch live TV. I just don't have the time to sit through a 1-hour show when I can view the actual program material in about two-thirds the time. Besides, I can't recall the last time I ever bought a product based on what I saw in a commercial. They're pretty much wasted on me.



> The biggest negative is live sports. Fortunately our MLB team is on OTA 55 times this years. We also already have an XBOX 360 with a gold subscription. There is a lot of live sports in HD on ESPN on the 360.


I get all of the Ravens' football games on my local channels. Aside from The Capitals Hockey, I don't watch much else except for an occasional Maryland college basketball game. I got totally soured on baseball after the last time they threatened to strike.


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