# TiVo Suggestions in the UK - Update



## TiVoPony

Hi all,

As I'd mentioned here, we've been investigating why TiVo Suggestions have stopped recording for our Series1 UK customers.

We now believe this to be due to recent changes in the program data supplied by our provider. While these data changes are necessary and allow the continued recording of your favorite shows, they are incompatible with the TiVo Suggestions feature. As such, TiVo Suggestions will no longer be available as a part of the TiVo Service for Series1 subscribers in the United Kingdom.

We appreciate all of the support that you've demonstrated over the years for TiVo, and are disappointed that an alternative could not be found. The version 2.5 software is simply incompatible with the new data format we've had to adopt (the new format was necessary as the old format had run out of headspace...there was no room to assign id's to new programs). These identifiers are largely abstracted by the service to prevent this sort of dependency, unfortunately TiVo Suggestions in that early software depends on the actual raw data format (which has now changed).

Thanks again for your patience as we've worked through identifying the root cause of this issue. Although this situation is regrettable, it was out of TiVo's control. Fortunately, all other core TiVo features are unaffected by these changes.

Bob Pony

*MOD EDIT: PLEASE NOTE THAT SUGGESTIONS ARE NOW FIXED*


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## andyjenkins

I hate to be the pessimist here, but this is sounding ominous.

Reduced service, but no reduced monthly subscription. Why? because TiVo know no-one will cancel over lack of suggestions.


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## Automan

Can we then please have the option to buy a new UK model to replace our old Series 1 units?

Automan.


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## mikerr

:down::down::down:
A sad day indeed 

Thanks for at least letting us know the situation that forced this.

Meanwhile networked users can use my suggestions hack which schedules its own suggestions based on your thumbs.

Non-networked users can buy one of my preconfigured drives with it already on 

I'll be developing this further now since its will be our only method of regaining suggestion functionality. 
Stay tuned folks !

Mike
www.TivoCentral.co.uk
________________
Lost suggestions? Get the new suggestion engine !


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## digital_S

Cheers for the update Bob. :up:
If our version 2.5 is incompatiable, would it not be possible to send out a nice shiney new version to allow the new data format to run on our TiVos?


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## TiVoPony

digital_S said:


> Cheers for the update Bob. :up:
> If our version 2.5 is incompatiable, would it not be possible to send out a nice shiney new version to allow the new data format to run on our TiVos?


Unfortunately an update for those boxes is not in the cards.

Pony


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## digital_S

TiVoPony said:


> Unfortunately an update for those boxes is not in the cards.
> 
> Pony


Oh Bob, not what we want to hear!! How to lose friends or what 
Seriously though, unless a manufacture is willing to take on a new box etc, it doesn't look good for us  (Whilst you lot across the pond get all the new boxes and updates you require!)


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## Nero2

TivoPony (Bob),

Thanks for the update. As a poor sap who has been faithfully paying my monthly sub for more than Id care to mention I am very disappointed and feel somewhat cheated.

Fair enough that any subscribed service provider can legally change the service that they provide, in this case I will be cancelling my monthly sub. To ask a last question, given the ongoing problems with re-enabling UK subscriptions, if I cancel my monthly sub and then wish to re-enable will I be able to do it?

A sad day indeed.

Thanks


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## TiVoPony

Nero2 said:


> TivoPony (Bob),
> 
> Thanks for the update. As a poor sap who has been faithfully paying my monthly sub for more than Id care to mention I am very disappointed and feel somewhat cheated.
> 
> Fair enough that any subscribed service provider can legally change the service that they provide, in this case I will be cancelling my monthly sub. To ask a last question, given the ongoing problems with re-enabling UK subscriptions, if I cancel my monthly sub and then wish to re-enable will I be able to do it?
> 
> A sad day indeed.
> 
> Thanks


I'm sorry you feel cheated, hopefully the years of service your TiVo has provided you have been worthwhile. It sounds as though that is true, it would be a shame to throw your system out due to this.

Regarding the account issues, we believe those have been (or are very nearly) resolved. Here's the link to my post:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6723649#post6723649

I hope you'll stay on with us, even though the box is a bit long in the tooth, those Series1 systems are solid machines.

Pony


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## TCM2007

So they ran out of TMSIDs, and had to move from it being a 16-bit to a 32-bit integer (or something like that). I suggested that the way things started appearing under the wrong Season Passes might be linked to this - sounds like it was, and they started to re-use TMSID numbers, causing problems.

I wonder if a hack might be created to reassign new TMSIDs to incoming data in the range that our S1s can understand? Or to otherwise edit the guide data back into the old format. Of course I don't have an active TiVo any more so I can't try it!


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## a68oliver

TivoPony,

Could you please check this thread regarding suggestions not recording in US boxes, particularly older S1 boxes.

How is this UK news related to the US problems, if at all?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=394935


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## Nero2

TiVoPony said:


> I hope you'll stay on with us, even though the box is a bit long in the tooth, those Series1 systems are *solid* machines.


The machines certainly appear solid, shame about the support.

Thanks

Nero


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## cwaring

TiVoPony said:


> I hope you'll stay on with us...


To the bitter end, Bob 


a68oliver said:


> How is this UK news related to the US problems, if at all?


I guess they'll never record suggestions again too


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## a_tivo_noob

thanks for the (admittedly dreadful) news - if nothing else it's good to know where we stand - a lot of companies would drag something like this out and hope 'the user' forgets (or at least gives up!)

I am knowledgable of databases, but know little about the architecture of them within the Tivo, but I am wondering if 'suggestions' are just a start, and are we soon to have similar problems with recording new programs / season passes, or is it a different kettle of fish?


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## Glen

Its very sad to read this! So basically what i have sitting under my TV is a glorified PVR! I'm, really fed up with TiVo not giving us a straight answer. Either they are stopping the UK service, or they are gonna update the hardware that i runs on. It does seem as tho our boxes are slowly going to become more and more incompatible, and slowly but surely, the features will disappear one by one. as the US and Oz customers get more, we get less and less. Seriously tho, apart from the snazzy GUI what sets tivo apart from other pvr's now? not much! Thank you TiVo for being upfront with us, and also thank you so much for leaving us out in the cold. SkyHD seems a lot more appealing today............


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## katman

Glen said:


> Its very sad to read this! So basically what i have sitting under my TV is a glorified PVR! I'm, really fed up with TiVo not giving us a straight answer. Either they are stopping the UK service, or they are gonna update the hardware that i runs on. It does seem as tho our boxes are slowly going to become more and more incompatible, and slowly but surely, the features will disappear one by one.


Sadly that looks to be the case but your statement is a bit harsh IMHO.

Technology moves on and our Series 1 Tivos originate from the time that PCs were running Windows 98. Some people are still using Win98 and dont have access to features and even some hardware that people using XP and Vista do.

Is it fair to hold back future development for a bunch of machines that would probably all have been replaced by now had we been given the opportunity to buy a more modern machine.

I have two SKY+ boxes (one controlled by my Lifetime Tivo) and I have to say that I hate SKY+ with a passion. Tivo is definately the best bit of AV Kit I ever bought and as long as it continues to record my programs I will be happy.

I turned suggestions off shortly after I first got Tivo because with all the family using it at the time it filled up with their choice of program. Since getting SKY+, Tivo has been MINE ALL MINE 

I recently upgraded the hard disk and decided to enable suggestions again just as they stopped working so although technically I have lost a feature, because I never really used it I dont expect I will miss it.

I have had a few fouled up recordings due to wrong data recently but that has been the fault of SKY (Or Discovery/NatGeo) because the recorded banner agrees with what Tivo was trying to record... they just broadcast a different program


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## TiVoPony

a_tivo_noob said:


> I am knowledgable of databases, but know little about the architecture of them within the Tivo, but I am wondering if 'suggestions' are just a start, and are we soon to have similar problems with recording new programs / season passes, or is it a different kettle of fish?


We're not aware of anything that would interfere with the recording features you've mentioned. As I said, the software for the Series1 UK boxes (and all other TiVo DVR's) abstracts the program ID (TMSID) for the scheduling function. We don't use TMSID's, we use our own equivalent TiVo ID's for scheduling. Since TiVo ID's are under our control we don't anticipate this sort of issue impacting the standard recording functions.

The algorithms used within the software for TiVo Suggestions (in version 2.5 software) unfortunately do not take advantage of this abstraction, they require the actual TMSID's (which have now changed format)...leading to the inability to create or schedule Suggestions on UK Series1 boxes.

Pony


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## a_tivo_noob

cheers for clarification and further explanation Pony


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## andonevris

Damn this is bad news. I'm still on a monthly sub and it looks like this might be the end for me and tivo.

I'm hoping Mikerr or someone can write a decent suggestions hack.

It would seem the fat lady is doing her vocal warmup......


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## kitschcamp

TiVoPony said:


> I hope you'll stay on with us, even though the box is a bit long in the tooth, those Series1 systems are solid machines.


They are, and I love mine to bits - I've yet to find a PVR that works anywhere near as well and reliably as the TiVo does. But... they will fail, and also in these days of energy conservation the energy requirements for a set top box and a TiVo are quite high.

There is a market out there for TiVo. I know my Swedish friends are incredibly jealous of the UK having one. By the look of the Nero/TiVo deal there is a possibility there for a new UK and "worldwide" option. I hope that comes off, because I know plenty of people who'd be rushing off to the website now to order it!

Yesterday I was in a satellite store in Malmö, Sweden. I was getting spares for my dish. At the next counter a man was asking for advice about receiving British TV in Sweden. The man behind the counter advised him not to buy a Sky+ box but a normal Sky box and a TiVo... That says a lot.


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## kitschcamp

Just thinking about the Nero/TiVo system... Maybe you could ask loyal UK TiVo subscribers to help with beta testing the UK version? That, I would guess, would passify a heck of a lot of people.


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## steveroe

:down:

Thanks for investigating Pony and getting an answer - even if it is the one that we don't want to hear 

Can I suggest that the uk.tivo.com website is updated, it's now offering features of a service that doesn't exist anymore...


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## Goooner1

Well, sadly, I think this is the end for me and my beloved TiVo. If suggestions have stopped now, how long until the next feature stops working?

Not even a token gesture of an even slightly reduced subscription.


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## ramtops

TiVoPony said:


> I'm sorry you feel cheated, hopefully the years of service your TiVo has provided you have been worthwhile. It sounds as though that is true, it would be a shame to throw your system out due to this.
> 
> ...
> 
> I hope you'll stay on with us, even though the box is a bit long in the tooth, those Series1 systems are solid machines.
> 
> Pony


Of course our boxes are "long in the tooth" - we've been denied the opportunity to replace them. I've been a champion of Tivo for many years, but I'll be replacing mine now.


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## davisa

Very disappointing news, but not surprising from a company that really doesn't seem to have been interested in the UK market for a long long time. I'm still at a loss as to just what's so bad about launching new product into the UK market, others seem to be making a healthy profit doing so 

Are TiVo planning on sending letters to all its UK customers explaining the withdrawal of service? Not everyone uses this forum and there are bound to be a lot of confused customers out there. Certainly my 70 year old mother thought is was something she had done to break it.

Perhaps it is time for the monthly subscription to be abolished and for the "gentleman's agreement" on guide hacking to be revoked allowing us to hack our machines with alternative guide sources.

Fitting perhaps that my Topfield PVR is due to arrive today, with a view to replacing TiVo/Cable. Yes, it requires hacking to get anywhere near the TiVo level of functionality, but it appears so does TiVo from now on.


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## AMc

News is disappointing but not very surprising. 

Here's hoping to a new Tivo option in the UK soon. I could probably swing a new media PC if I could get the Tivo interface on it.


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## blindlemon

TiVoPony said:


> I hope you'll stay on with us, even though the box is a bit long in the tooth, those Series1 systems are solid machines.


Thanks for the update.

As you are no doubt aware, most TiVo users will continue to use their TiVos to the bitter end - as my continuing sales of replacement drives etc. to users whose machines have failed demontrates - but what we really need here is, of course, a new UK TiVo!

What happened to the TiVo Reference Platform? Even without inbuilt Freeview/Freesat tuners, if this can record from a SCART (or HDMI) input then we could use it with our existing STBs.

If you need any beta testers for a new UK box then I'm sure plenty of posters on this forum would be willing to volunteer, and to sign any necessary NDAs as well 

Cheers
Steve
www.tivoheaven.co.uk


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## Glen

me me me! I want to test a new tivo!


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## mdolan

:down: :down: :down:

Disappointing. Another bit of the UK service is taken away. Many of us would *love* a S3 tivo, but that is not an option as Tivo decided not to make it an option.

So rather than actually provide the advertised service to paying customers it's just another 2 fingers up to the UK market. And then the marketing execs wonder why people refuse to buy products. Those who do not learn from history....

"Some people are still using Win98 and dont have access to features and even some hardware that people using XP and Vista do."

The hardware is available. There is no artificial market restriction for PCs. Tivo decided not to supply newer boxes/service to the UK so the arguments are unfortunately not comparable.

"Is it fair to hold back future development for a bunch of machines that would probably all have been replaced by now had we been given the opportunity to buy a more modern machine."

Is it fair to tell paying customers "we're no longer going to provide you the service we advertised because we cannot be bothered?". Also, the fix is to patch S1 machines to be compatible with new TMSIDs - this would have no affect on newer machines and is not holding back future development. A better argument would be "Office 2007 cannot open Office XP documents without losing vast parts of the data (but only if you were in the UK)" and you could imagine how well that would go down in the marketplace.


But Tivo just cant be bothered to actually assign (and pay) a developer to do so. But they are perfectly happy to keep taking in the money.

I appreciate that it is not TivoPonys fault however it's just another big corporation saying "we have your money and we no longer care - go away".

Such is life ;-)

Cheers,
Mike


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## Glen

Well said my friend! I couldn't agree more!


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## gotty

TiVoPony said:


> I'm sorry you feel cheated, hopefully the years of service your TiVo has provided you have been worthwhile.
> 
> I hope you'll stay on with us, even though the box is a bit long in the tooth, those Series1 systems are solid machines.
> 
> Pony


I think you'll find that many TiVo users will be feeling very cheated (those who don't care about suggestions won't of course).

I for one don't want to be paying £10 a month for a service that has just been reduced to 25% of what it was two months ago. And, having paid £800 over the years to support TiVo I feel that this is a serious kick in the teeth. Particularly as it has come without warning (and shows a significant lack of professionalism or respect for users).

As soon as I can I will now be ditching my TiVo (I've barely used it over the past month), and I would suspect that there will be a significant drop in UK subscriptions over the next few months. I've just spoken with an old neighbour and he's cancelling his two subscriptions today.

And, like him, I'll be demanding a refund of this last month's subscription.

It will also be interesting to see how/if any publicity surrounding this will affect things like the Australian take-up.


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## gotty

mdolan said:


> :down: :down: :down:
> 
> Disappointing ... So rather than actually provide the advertised service to paying customers it's just another 2 fingers up to the UK market. And then the marketing execs wonder why people refuse to buy products.
> 
> But Tivo just cant be bothered to actually assign (and pay) a developer to do so. But they are perfectly happy to keep taking in the money.
> 
> I appreciate that it is not TivoPonys fault however it's just another big corporation saying "we have your money and we no longer care - go away".
> 
> Such is life ;-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike


Good points, well made.

What should be worrying those at TiVo is the fact that they've made a huge blunder here in terms of the operation of the system and, while they're presumably fixing it for American and Australian users, who is to say that similar gotchas aren't waiting in the wings (if they couldn't see this problem coming then there has to be something seriously wrong with their development team).

So who is to say that those buying new machines won't be shafted like this in a couple of years time.


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## SCOOBY.C

again just re-iterating, thanks for the (bad)news.
Unfortunately this means, to me, tivo is basically just another freeview pvr that you have to pay extra for every month 
Suggestions was probably the best part of tivo for me and have recomeneded it many times, i feel i can no longer do that honestly


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## Tim L

Disappointing news. I'll have to have a long think about what to do - if I hadn't recently upgraded I'd probably just cancel and get a Toppy. Think I'll try out mikerr's Suggs hack and see how that goes.


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## kev160967

TivoPony, I can understand that you (Tivo) can't justify allocating development time to correct the suggestions issue, but how about opening up the Tivo S1 sources to some developers who would be prepared to spend the time, subject to suitable NDAs of course? Apart from the (still unbeaten in terms of wife friendliness) user interface, and general reliability of the Tivo, the ability to customise it has been a major attraction for me. I'm sure that some of the users who have obviously spent a lot of time writing the various tivo hacks would jump at the chance to work with the actualy source code. So in one move you could make UK users very happy and also perhaps get some nice new features for your US S1 users (or perhaps some good ideas for later models!).

Alternatively get us access to some up to date machines!!!


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## cwaring

gotty said:


> I for one don't want to be paying £10 a month for a service that has just been reduced to *25%* of what it was two months ago.


No offence or dis-respect intended, but which bit of thin air did you pull this figure out of?



gotty said:


> As soon as I can I will now be ditching my TiVo ....


If anyone would like to give me their "now useless" LT-sub'd Tivo then I'm happy to pay postage costs 



gotty said:


> .... while they're presumably fixing it for American and Australian users...


I don't think US S2+ and new Oz (ie not hacked S1) users aren't affected by this.


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## carl newman

I gave my tivo some random thumbs up on various programs last night and this morning it had recorded a suggestion! 

When i go into the suggestions menu it still thinks its a new tivo and has no suggestions but how did it get a suggestion for me?

It recorded "loose women" for me......i dont know if i had given that a "thumbs up" or not because like i said, i just randomly rated a few programs, but it seems like some part of the suggestion functionality must still be working to get that program for me?

Its almost like it loses your thumbs data overnight.

Dont understand


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## mikerr

Yes, it only seems to work with recent thumbs.

The suggestion code must have at least three sections, 
(1) one to look at recent thumbs, 
(2) another at older thumbs, 
(3) and another to produce "predicted thumbs".

Its only the (least important!) first part (recent thumbs) that is still working.
So as you say, you can thumb up stuff today, and that will record as a suggestion later on today, 
or until a daily call when thumb data is merged (and "new" becomes "old").


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## geekspeak

I think that is very poor and I will no longer be able to rave about Tivo, as a faultless system, in the way I am accustomed. In my opinion it no longer works as advertised.


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## cleudo

mikerr said:


> Yes, it only seems to work with recent thumbs.


Looks like TiVo got the thumbs up all of us....


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## Tim L

mikerr said:


> Yes, it only seems to work with recent thumbs.
> 
> The suggestion code must have at least three sections,
> (1) one to look at recent thumbs,
> (2) another at older thumbs,
> (3) and another to produce "predicted thumbs".
> 
> Its only the (least important!) first part (recent thumbs) that is still working.
> So as you say, you can thumb up stuff today, and that will record as a suggestion later on today,
> or until a daily call when thumb data is merged (and "new" becomes "old").


I wonder what would happen if a hack could run through the old thumbs and convert them to new thumbs so that they get resubmitted? I'm guessing there's a lot more to this, involving recording history and so on, so the results would be flaky at best, even if it were possible.


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## carl newman

TiVoPony said:


> We now believe this to be due to recent changes in the program data supplied by our provider. While these data changes are necessary and allow the continued recording of your favorite shows, they are incompatible with the TiVo Suggestions feature. As such, TiVo Suggestions will no longer be available as a part of the TiVo Service for Series1 subscribers in the United Kingdom.
> 
> Bob Pony


If this new data is incompatible with Tivo's Suggestions feature how does it manage to give you suggestions for stuff that you "thumbs up" today?( before it makes the daily call).......surely you wouldn't get anything at all if it cant read the new data format?


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## terryeden

Quite upset by this. I paid my life time a few years ago after paying monthly for... too many years. I even convinced the inlaws to get one.

Looking at the UI of some of the newer FreeviewPlayback PVRs, they exceed TiVo in many ways (video previews, subtitles, etc). I'd love a S3, but once bitten, twice shy.


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## TCM2007

The TiVo service in the UK is almost certainly running at a loss - as well as paying to have the data to be put together and for customer service to be maintained, most people's daily calls are on a freephone number which TiVo picks up the bill for, and the only revenue is the dwindling handful of monthly subscribers.

So I think complaining that TiVo should throw more money at the UK market with no prospect of any return on it is a bit unfair. They are a business, not fellow hackers!



> Is it fair to tell paying customers "we're no longer going to provide you the service we advertised because we cannot be bothered?".


Almost six years after said service ceased to be offered to new customers, yes I'm afraid it's perfectly fair.


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## TCM2007

kev160967 said:


> TivoPony, I can understand that you (Tivo) can't justify allocating development time to correct the suggestions issue, but how about opening up the Tivo S1 sources to some developers who would be prepared to spend the time, subject to suitable NDAs of course? Apart from the (still unbeaten in terms of wife friendliness) user interface, and general reliability of the Tivo, the ability to customise it has been a major attraction for me. I'm sure that some of the users who have obviously spent a lot of time writing the various tivo hacks would jump at the chance to work with the actualy source code. So in one move you could make UK users very happy and also perhaps get some nice new features for your US S1 users (or perhaps some good ideas for later models!).
> 
> Alternatively get us access to some up to date machines!!!


Or failing that, give us a technical briefing on the exact problem, under an NDA if necessary. UK hackers have been quite resourceful in the past at bodging together solutions to problems with the TiVo software! There are three or four people on here who, I'm almost certain, could come up with a patch/hack to get things going again for those with hacked TiVos.


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## mikerr

TCM2007 said:


> Is it fair to tell paying customers "we're no longer going to provide you the service we advertised because we cannot be bothered?".
> 
> 
> 
> Almost six years after said service ceased to be offered to new customers, yes I'm afraid it's perfectly fair.
Click to expand...

To be pedantic, service did not cease six years ago, only hardware sales.

New service (subs) is still offered to new subscribers today !


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## ColinYounger

I don't wish to say 'I told you so', but... well... 'I told you so'.


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## ColinYounger

kev160967 said:


> opening up the Tivo S1 sources to some developers who would be prepared to spend the time, subject to suitable NDAs


It would need to be more than an NDA - resourceful hackers might start to try to implement S3 features with enough access, and TiVo wouldn't want us 'doing our own thing'!

I'd be massively fascinated to get even a restricted access peek behind the curtain.


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## TCM2007

mikerr said:


> Yes, it only seems to work with recent thumbs.
> 
> The suggestion code must have at least three sections,
> (1) one to look at recent thumbs,
> (2) another at older thumbs,
> (3) and another to produce "predicted thumbs".
> 
> Its only the (least important!) first part (recent thumbs) that is still working.
> So as you say, you can thumb up stuff today, and that will record as a suggestion later on today,
> or until a daily call when thumb data is merged (and "new" becomes "old").


I guess what's happening is that historical thumbs are being stored in some kind of data table associated with the TMSID of the show. As TiVoPony says, this is not typically how TiVo works - when it loads the guide data it creates a database object for each show (and series) which has an ID unique to that show_ on that Tivo_. All subsequent data manipulation is done on that new ID, not the TMSID. Which is why everything else keeps working.

Updating that table probably occurs when new guide data is loaded, and that's why things break every night.

If we knew where in MFS this table was, and what its format was, it might be possible to patch it in some way by doing our own editing of TMSIDs in the guide data or in MFS.

If anyone's running my Tracker application - this also works by maintaining a database of TMSIDs and I'd be interested to know if that's broken too.


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## TCM2007

ColinYounger said:


> resourceful hackers might start to try to implement S3 features


I think you'll find we already have!


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## ColinYounger

Shhhh!


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## Pugwash

Over the years I've discovered programmes I like but had never heard of. There's countless documentaries shown on obscure channels at stupid o'clock we'd never have spotted.

If a team of programmers can't sort this out for the hundreds? of S1 customers you've really lost the ball.


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## Pete77

TiVoPony said:


> The algorithms used within the software for TiVo Suggestions (in version 2.5 software) unfortunately do not take advantage of this abstraction, they require the actual TMSID's (which have now changed format)...leading to the inability to create or schedule Suggestions on UK


So how many man days of programming effort are actually required by Tivo staff to update the algorithms used within the software for Tivo Suggestions in order to cope with the new format of data being supplied by Tribune Media Services? And since this issue also appears to affect your US Series 1 machines and therefore has the potential to do serious damage to the Tivo brand in its home territory surely it needs to be sorted out by Tivo.

You seem to rule out an updated release of the software run by our Tivo S1 machines but if a new release is necessary in order to maintain the existing advertised data feature set then why not. We aren't asking for an update to our software just for fun but in order to maintain the original advertised feature set.

Also aren't Tribune Media Services now in breach of contract by providing data in a format not compatible with the continued support of the Tivo Series 1 machines? Alternatively Tivo would appear to be in breach of contract to the Lifetime Subscription customers and we should therefore all be entitled to a significant refund of the original cost of the Lifetime Sub? Similarly the cost of a Monthly Sub should also be reduced to reflect the downgraded service now available.

The Suggestions concept with the Thumbs Up and Thumbs Down buttons on the remote is at the very heart of what a Tivo is about and is one of its key patented features. To my mind without the continued availability of Suggestions then the service we will continue to enjoy is not really a Tivo service at all but merely a cut down ordinary PVR service.:down::down::down:


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## cwaring

Wow! Hyperbole much?! Have you actually read the rest of this thread wrt subs? (Post #44 in particular)

I would be stupid to suggest that the service hasn't been affected at all, but with phrases like "the service is now 25&#37; what it used to be" and the suggestion (okay, that wasn't intentional, honest ) that our Tivos are now "useless", etc. being bandied about I think some people are getting so upset it's a little un-nerving to be honest.


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## mikerr

Pete77 said:


> So how many man days of programming effort are actually required by Tivo staff to update the algorithms used within the software for Tivo Suggestions in order to cope with the new format of data being supplied by Tribune Media Services?


Probably more effort than to simply make a new tivo available to the UK 

Either in hardware (the austrailian DVB tivo) or software (Tivo PC)


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## Pete77

mikerr said:


> Probably more effort than to simply make a new tivo available to the UK
> 
> Either in hardware (the austrailian DVB tivo) or software (Tivo PC)


But the development costs of type approving and releasing and distributing a replacement hardware platform for the remaining active UK user base are probably not worthwhile......


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## Alcatraz

Pugwash said:


> Over the years I've discovered programmes I like but had never heard of. There's countless documentaries shown on obscure channels at stupid o'clock we'd never have spotted.
> 
> If a team of programmers can't sort this out for the hundreds? of S1 customers you've really lost the ball.


Who says they "can't"? It's more likely that it's not practical for them to fix such a minor issue for a relatively small population of boxes that haven't been updated in.......how long? If most of those boxes are getting lifetime service at whatever price was available back then, they've stopped being a source of revenue long ago.

If they did go back and try to revive antiquated code and spend whatever time and resources needed to refamiliarize themselves with said code, as well as fix the issue and run a beta program to test for several weeks, there's a strong chance that many boxes wouldn't survive the upgrade process anyway. I've read on this forum that Tivo uses a separate partition just for software. How many people would be much more upset that their box died [you know they'd blame the software itself rather than the process of upgrading a crusty hard drive] than they would be at losing Suggestions? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. It's just not a good choice for them to make.

For most of us, regardless of which side of the pond we're on, Suggestions are a "nice-to-have" feature that is rarely used and is not a key factor in using the service. If a core user function were broken that kept you from using it at all, that would be different story. Suggestions are just a cherry on top of the frosting. Without it, you still have a tasty cake.

And if the argument is "we're paying the same and getting less", all you gotta do is compare the old Series1 boxes to the Series2, and newer, models over here. Granted, the old S1 owners haven't lost anything, but they are paying the same as newer customers who are "getting more" for the same price.

I'd say you should get a newer model, but that's not an option. If anything, take your disappointment/anger and start a campaign to get Sky back on board with a Tivo partnership and then you'd be in on the ground floor when upgrades are available!


----------



## JNLister

I've just written a an article on this for tech site BLORGE.


----------



## Pete77

JNLister said:


> I've just written a an article on this for tech site BLORGE.


A great article covering all the main ground. How many readers a day or a week does your site get? I take it that you are yourself an American based in the United States?

One interesting further point is that the US Series 1 Tivo machines possibly have not had their Suggestions feature irreparably broken because they run a Version 3.x.x something of the Tivo software instead of our last software release version of 2.5.5 dating from late 2002. If this is true then why can't the UK users be upgraded to version 3.x.x of the software as it already exists and can support Suggestions and run on the Tivo Series 1 hardware platform with the altered Tribune Media Services data source?


----------



## Pete77

Alcatraz said:


> If anything, take your disappointment/anger and start a campaign to get Sky back on board with a Tivo partnership and then you'd be in on the ground floor when upgrades are available!


Its never going to happen with Sky and Tivo in the UK again as they make far more money out of selling their own inferior Sky+ PVR. That is why they cut ties with Tivo in the first place.

The only likely partners for Tivo in the UK are our main cable service provider Virgin (who even use the same model of Scientific Atlanta cable box that can support Tivo software in the US) or our Freesat or Freeview digital satellite and digital terrestrial television platforms. The problem with the latter two is that they do not charge monthly subscriptions so covering the costs of Tivo's data supply from TMS is a real issue.


----------



## smatson

S1 in usa have the same problems ?!! maybe they will fix it


----------



## cwaring

It's not related, according to Tivo Pony. Link.


----------



## smatson

We will see


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> It's not related, according to Tivo Pony. Link.


In which case why can't we have the version 3 software the US Series 1 Tivos are running if Suggestions are unaffected with that version of the software.


----------



## bugmenever

This is a bloody disgrace. I hope that some of the expert resident hackers here get something cobbled together to bring this feature back, or I may as well get a refund of my lifetime subscription and put it towards an alternative PVR.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> In which case why can't we have the version 3 software the US Series 1 Tivos are running if Suggestions are unaffected with that version of the software.


v3 is the same as v 2.5.5 to all intents and purposes; they numbered the US version differently. The differences are mainly in the localisation.

There would be a significant cost to making changes to the software, testing it and then deploying it (a major download, at TiVo's expense). There is no return for making that investment in supporting an ancient bit of software used by a handful of people.

I don't understand some posters aggressive attitude. I find it amazing, and greatly to TiVo's credit, that the service exists at all so many years after it went off sale.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> I don't understand some posters aggressive attitude. I find it amazing, and greatly to TiVo's credit, that the service exists at all so many years after it went off sale.


And this from a man who willingly admits to having entirely ceased using all his Tivos and having defected entirely to the Windows MCE camp and before that the Sky HD camp. Also a man who has a large salary with a major publishing house and so can regularly afford to trash his existing hardware gadgets that are still functioning perfectly well just so that he can have the very latest biggest and brightest new thing.

Well Mr I Always Buy What Is Fashionable For The Next Five Minutes I can tell you that some of us have Yorkshire genes and expect our hardware and software to be well built and to last longer than the interval between one hair cut and the next.

Sorry but I really couldn't let you get away with the above post and your view that the well paid men in suits are always right. And don't we know anyway from the current banking crisis that frequently they aren't but are merely following the pack in the hope of the next big salary increase and bonus payment...........


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Also aren't Tribune Media Services now in breach of contract by providing data in a format not compatible with the continued support of the Tivo Series 1 machines?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, my guess is the error lies with TiVo in not programming the device to cope with TMSIDs over 7 digits (or whatever the change is)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alternatively Tivo would appear to be in breach of contract to the Lifetime Subscription customers and we should therefore all be entitled to a significant refund of the original cost of the Lifetime Sub? Similarly the cost of a Monthly Sub should also be reduced to reflect the downgraded service now available.
> 
> 
> 
> The T&C say TiVo can vary the service at any time. You have the right to cancel if you don't like it. I would say that anyone who has taken out a lifetime in the last 19 months and who wants to cancel their service should get a refund of £199/20 for each month short of 20 they received the service for.
> 
> Any other lifetimers have had full value, and monthly payers just need to decide if it's still worth £10 or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Suggestions concept with the Thumbs Up and Thumbs Down buttons on the remote is at the very heart of what a Tivo is about and is one of its key patented features. To my mind without the continued availability of Suggestions then the service we will continue to enjoy is not really a Tivo service at all but merely a cut down ordinary PVR service.:down::down::down:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's already been established that several of the most evangelical TiVoers on this board don't use it, so it's hard to see it being "at the very heart" of what TiVo is.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## mdolan

TCM2007 said:


> I find it amazing, and greatly to TiVo's credit, that the service exists at all so many years after it went off sale.


I think this is the crux of the issue. In the UK, Thomson stopped supplying the hardware and Tivo decided NOT to partner with another manufacture and also decided that they would not upgrade the SERVICE or allow machines shipped from the US to operate with UK guide data.

The service is still operational and Tivo are very happily taking money for the service. I can buy a 2nd hand Tivo, phone up Tivo (via Sky) and pay them for the service. So you cannot say that the service went "off sale" - only the ability to buy brand new boxes in the high street.

Now - nothing has happened to our boxes. The service has changed (for the worse) and Tivo has decided this acceptable and to heck with the UK paying customers. It makes no issue if it is a monthly sub or a lifetime sub. I payed my money to Tivo for the service. I paid my money to the shop for the box.

At no point have Tivo announced a withdrawal of service. It doesnt matter if they have 1 customer or 1 million. They still offer the service and it is no longer the service they advertise.

I'm personally very unhappy with how Tivo are handling (or rather NOT handling) this. The UK service has always been a poor cousin and now they are again showing that they really don't care. My opinion is the only reason that they are fixing the subs issue is that directly affects the money coming in (i.e. if customers have to keep phoning every few days they *will* leave). I suspect they are just banking on the idea that Suggestions being disabled will not lead to a significant drop in subs.

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## smatson

And get rid of all old people to


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> If anyone's running my Tracker application - this also works by maintaining a database of TMSIDs and I'd be interested to know if that's broken too.


I'm still running it and it is completely unaffected by the Suggestions problem alleged to be due to changes in TMSID format.

Looking at the below set of Tracker details for Randall & Hopkirk Deceased I can't see anything different about the format of the TMSID after the alleged date of change that broke Suggestions compared to the format of the TMSID before that date.

So perhaps Tribune is being economical with the truth about the real cause of the problem with Suggestions.



> EP5915300001	My Late Lamented Friend and Partner	Fri 01 Aug 08	WishList	User	Watched (35mins)	Delete
> EP5915300002	A Disturbing Case	Fri 08 Aug 08	WishList	User	Watched (18mins)	Delete
> EP5915300003	All Work and No Pay	Fri 15 Aug 08	WishList	User	Watched (1mins)	Delete
> EP5915300004	Never Trust a Ghost	Tue 19 Aug 08	WishList	User	Watched (1mins)	Delete
> EP5915300005	That's How Murder Snowballs	Fri 22 Aug 08	WishList	User	Watched (2mins)	Delete
> EP5915300006	Just for the Record	Tue 26 Aug 08	WishList	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP5915300007	Murder Ain't What It Used to Be	Fri 29 Aug 08	WishList	User	Watched (0mins)	Delete
> EP5915300008	Whoever Heard of a Ghost Dying?	Tue 02 Sep 08	WishList	TiVo	Watched (3mins)	Delete
> EP5915300009	The House on Haunted Hill	Tue 09 Sep 08	WishList	User	Watched (0mins)	Delete
> EP5915300010	When Did You Start to Stop Seeing Things?	Thu 11 Sep 08	WishList	User	Watched (32mins)	Delete
> EP5915300011	The Ghost Who Saved the Bank at Monte Carlo	Thu 18 Sep 08	WishList	User	Watched (58mins)	Delete
> EP5915300012	For the Girl Who Has Everything	Thu 25 Sep 08	WishList	User	Watched (2mins)	Delete
> EP5915300013	But What a Sweet Little Room	Fri 11 Apr 08	WishList	User	Watched (80mins)	Delete
> EP5915300014	Who Killed **** Robin?	Tue 20 May 08	WishList	User	Watched (1mins)	Delete
> EP5915300015	The Man from Nowhere	Tue 27 May 08	WishList	User	Watched (1mins)	Delete
> EP5915300016	When the Spirit Moves You	Tue 03 Jun 08	WishList	User	Watched (0mins)	Delete
> EP5915300017	Somebody Just Walked Over My Grave	Fri 09 May 08	WishList	User	Watched (1mins)	Delete
> EP5915300018	Could You Recognise the Man Again?	Tue 17 Jun 08	WishList	User	Watched (2mins)	Delete
> EP5915300019	A Sentimental Journey	Tue 24 Jun 08	WishList	User	Watched (0mins)	Delete
> EP5915300020	Money to Burn	Fri 30 May 08	WishList	User	Watched (126mins)	Delete
> EP5915300021	The Ghost Talks	Fri 13 Jun 08	WishList	User	Watched (68mins)	Delete
> EP5915300022	It's Supposed to Be Thicker Than Water	Fri 20 Jun 08	WishList	User	Watched (50mins)	Delete
> EP5915300023	The Trouble with Women	Fri 27 Jun 08	WishList	User	Watched (54mins)	Delete
> EP5915300024	Vendetta for a Dead Man	Fri 11 Jul 08	WishList	User	Watched (57mins)	Delete
> EP5915300025	You Can Always Find a Fall Guy	Fri 18 Jul 08	WishList	User	Watched (53mins)	Delete
> EP5915300026	The Smile Behind the Veil	Fri 25 Jul 08	WishList	User	Watched (1mins)	Delete


----------



## Pete77

OK just realised the TMSID problem will only affect entirely new episodes after the change date and not repeats of programs that already have a TMSID. Off to look at a current series with new episodes now.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> loads of tedious personal comments designed to wind me up deleted


My comment was only that f you'd told me back in 2003, when TiVo shut up shop in the UK, that the service would still be being provided over five years later I would have been surprised. People were um-ing and ah-ing about whether it was wise to take out a lifetime sub at that point as there was doubt about whether it would last two years.

I don't understand why people should be angry. They've paid for the subscription in the past and got what they obviously felt to be good value. this change doesn't effect that.

Obviously the service is reduced and monthly payers need to decide if it still constitutsd good value. if not they can cancel and buy an alternative PVR.

But why anger?


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> It's already been established that several of the most evangelical TiVoers on this board don't use it, so it's hard to see it being "at the very heart" of what TiVo is.


Then why are those big Red and Green Thumbs buttons by far the largest buttons on every Tivo remote?


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> OK just realised the TMSID problem will only affect entirely new episodes after the change date and not repeats of programs that already have a TMSID. Off to look at a current series with new episodes now.


Those are episode TMSIDs. Thumbs are attached to series.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Then why are those big Red and Green Thumbs buttons by far the largest buttons on every Tivo remote?


Is that really the best argument you can come up with?


----------



## cwaring

bugmenever said:


> ...or I may as well get a refund of my lifetime subscription and put it towards an alternative PVR.


Right. So you want a _full_ refund just because one smal aspect (and not even the main one) of your unit isn't working.

See what I mean about an over-reaction!



Pete77 said:


> Sorry but I really couldn't let you get away with the above post .........


Whereas I actually _agree_ with him.



TCM2007 said:


> Obviously the service is reduced and monthly payers need to decide if it still constitutsd good value. if not they can cancel and buy an alternative PVR.


As long as Season Passes still work, I'm totally happy. Wishlists are an added (but useful) bonus. Suggestions I never used.


----------



## mdolan

TCM2007 said:


> I don't understand why people should be angry. They've paid for the subscription in the past and got what they obviously felt to be good value. this change doesn't effect that.
> 
> Obviously the service is reduced and monthly payers need to decide if it still constitutsd good value. if not they can cancel and buy an alternative PVR.
> 
> But why anger?


I can't speak for anyone else. In my posts I've expressed disappointment and unhappiness 

However this is not about the past. Tivo today are still happy to take money from UK users. What disappointments me is that they did not announce it, they waited for a lot of users to complain. And when they eventually posted back it was "aah, tough luck guys".

Personally I dont care if someone has had a monthly sub for 1 day, 1 month, or 100 years. And the same goes for lifetime subs. Tivo based their business model around subs and service and are now not even announcing the changes - just degrading the service and taking the same money.

That's what disappoints me - and possibly angers others.

It's also worth noting that some users have done Tivo a favour by modding their Tivos to download data over the internet, thus saving Tivo a pretty penny in phone calls.

Tivo has/had a good fanbase and unfortunately like many corporations have lost touch and decided that the very customers who bought their products are no longer "worthy" of support.

Like I said previously - disappointing.

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Is that really the best argument you can come up with?


Seems a pretty good argument to me. If the feature wasn't one of Tivo's biggest then why are the buttons so big and so prominently coloured. I also recall that when I got my Tivo that being able to Thumbs programs and look at the impact on Suggestions was one of its most exciting and innovative features.

I really don't think we need to be lectured by someone who has not remained loyal to the product and so is bound not to care whether the service to remaining users has been unacceptably diminished.


----------



## tivo525235

In my view this is completely unacceptable. One of the major selling points of the Tivo was how it worked like someone in your house automatically finding things you might like to watch. To remove such a feature is a breach of contract no matter how much they might like to think they can reduce the service at will. No court would allow them to remove such a key feature.

With their recent release of Tivo in Australia this seems especially unwise as bad PR from the UK is likely to spread as the world is global now.

Our lifetime subscription is for guide data AND software updates. As someone who purchased a Tivo after the 2.55 release I have had no software updates and now when an update is required they seem to want to forget the deal they agreed to.

While some may define lifetime as any amount > 20 months, in reality they defined it as the life of the unit. As our units are still functioning perfectly by definition we must still be within the lifetime of the unit.

For the US Series 1 units I can imagine their solution will be to exchange their S1 units with S2 units if there are sufficient complaints, but this is not a viable solution in the UK due to no fault of our own. The previous suggestion of the beta version of the PC version is interesting, or perhaps allowing us to import the Australian tivos at a discount and adding UK guide data for us would be a nice gesture.

I believe Tivo have made a serious misjudgement here and I implore them to reconsider it.

Do we know who our contract is with?


----------



## TCM2007

mdolan said:


> What disappointments me is that they did not announce it, they waited for a lot of users to complain. And when they eventually posted back it was "aah, tough luck guys".
> 
> Personally I dont care if someone has had a monthly sub for 1 day, 1 month, or 100 years. And the same goes for lifetime subs. Tivo based their business model around subs and service and are now not even announcing the changes - just degrading the service and taking the same money.
> 
> That's what disappoints me - and possibly angers others.


I'm confused - TiVoPony has come on here and told us exactly what happened, so far as we know as soon as it was possible to do so. Are you saying TiVo should have pre-announced that they were going to accidentally break suggestions?


----------



## Pete77

Tracker is still managing to track new episodes of programs in longstanding season passes despite the TMSID for the series allegedly now having a new format.

So it still seems that Tivo's excuse for Suggestions no longer working does not add up. See below example for Fifth Gear.



> EP5042945071 Mon 31 Oct 05	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945073 Mon 07 Nov 05	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945074 Mon 14 Nov 05	Season Pass	User	Watched (0mins)	Delete
> EP5042945075	Mon 21-11-05	Mon 21 Nov 05	Season Pass	TiVo	Watched (46mins)	Delete
> EP5042945077	Mon 05-12-05	Mon 05 Dec 05	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945081	The Best of 5th Gear - Supercars	Mon 27 Mar 06	Season Pass	User	Watched (57mins)	Delete
> EP5042945082	The Best of Fifth Gear: Races	Mon 03 Apr 06	Season Pass	User	Watched (0mins)	Delete
> EP5042945083	Mon 10-04-06	Mon 10 Apr 06	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945084	Mon 17-04-06	Mon 17 Apr 06	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945085	Mon 24-04-06	Mon 24 Apr 06	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945087	Sat 13-05-06	Sat 13 May 06	Suggestion	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945108	Mon 06-11-06	Mon 06 Nov 06	Season Pass	User	Watched (33mins)	Delete
> EP5042945109	Mon 13-11-06	Mon 13 Nov 06	Season Pass	User	Watched (114mins)	Delete
> EP5042945112	Mon 11-12-06	Mon 11 Dec 06	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945113	Mon 18-12-06	Mon 18 Dec 06	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945114	Mon 30-04-07	Mon 30 Apr 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945115	Sat 12-05-07	Mon 07 May 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945116 Sat 19 May 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945117	Mon 21-05-07	Mon 21 May 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945118	Mon 28-05-07	Mon 28 May 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945119	Sat 09-06-07	Sat 09 Jun 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945120 Sat 16 Jun 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945122	Sat 30-06-07	Sat 30 Jun 07	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP5042945137	Mon 03-09-07	Mon 03 Sep 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945140	Sat 29-09-07	Sat 29 Sep 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945141	Mon 17-09-07	Sat 22 Sep 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945144	Mon 01-10-07	Sat 06 Oct 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945146	Sat 13-10-07	Sat 13 Oct 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945147	Mon 15-10-07	Sat 20 Oct 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945148	Mon 22-10-07	Sat 27 Oct 07	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945162	Mon 21-01-08	Mon 21 Jan 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945166	Mon 28-01-08	Mon 28 Jan 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945168	Sat 09-02-08	Sat 09 Feb 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945171	Sat 23-02-08	Sat 23 Feb 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945172	Sat 01-03-08	Sat 01 Mar 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945176	Sat 15-03-08	Sat 15 Mar 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945177	Mon 17-03-08	Mon 17 Mar 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945178	Mon 24-03-08	Mon 24 Mar 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945207	Supercar v Race car	Sun 06 Jul 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP5042945208	Dom Joly Drives a Tank	Sat 12 Jul 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP5042945209	Tue 12-08-08	Tue 12 Aug 08	Suggestion	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945211	Sun 24-08-08	Sun 24 Aug 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> *EP5042945214	Sun 07-09-08	Sun 07 Sep 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945216	Sun 14-09-08	Sun 14 Sep 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP5042945220	Sat 20-09-08	Sat 20 Sep 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP5042945221	Sat 27-09-08	Sat 27 Sep 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete*
> SH5042940000	Generic	Tue 15 Nov 05	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete


----------



## Pete77

Or this example for Dispatches. Again new episodes first broadcast since the alleged TMSID problem are still being tracked against the same series ID.



> EP2249275112	The Court of Ken	Mon 28 Jan 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (11mins)	Delete
> EP2249275113	Why Kids Kill	Fri 08 Feb 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP2249275114	Heat or Eat: The Pensioners' Dilemma	Mon 11 Feb 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP2249275115	The Children Left Behind	Mon 18 Feb 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP2249275116	How the Banks Bet Your Money	Mon 25 Feb 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP2249275117	Checking-In to Airport Chaos	Mon 03 Mar 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (52mins)	Delete
> EP2249275118	Iraq's Lost Generation	Sun 16 Mar 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP2249275119	Iraq: The Betrayal	Thu 20 Mar 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP2249275120	Undercover in Tibet	Mon 31 Mar 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP2249275121	The Mobile Phone Rip-Off	Mon 28 Apr 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP2249275122	The Truth About Beauty Creams	Mon 12 May 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP2249275123	In God's Name	Mon 19 May 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP2249275124	Warlords Next Door?	Mon 26 May 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP2249275125	Gordon Brown: Where Did It All Go Wrong?	Mon 09 Jun 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (1mins)	Delete
> EP2249275126	From Jail to Jihad	Mon 16 Jun 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP2249275127	The Truth About Food Prices	Mon 23 Jun 08	Season Pass	TiVo	Unwatched	Delete
> EP2249275128	The Truth About Street Weapons	Tue 09 Sep 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP2249275129	A Widow's War on Yobs	Thu 10 Jul 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP2249275130	It Shouldn't Happen to a Muslim	Sun 13 Jul 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP2249275131	The Jab That Can Stop Cancer	Thu 24 Jul 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete
> EP2249275132	Sandwiches Unwrapped	Thu 31 Jul 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (0mins)	Delete
> EP2249275133	How the Banks Never Lose	Thu 28 Aug 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (0mins)	Delete
> *EP2249275134	Undercover Mosque: The Return	Tue 09 Sep 08	Season Pass	User	Watched (To-Do Delete)	Delete
> EP2249275136	What's in Your Wine?	Mon 22 Sep 08	Season Pass	User	Unwatched	Delete*


----------



## TCM2007

tivo525235 said:


> To remove such a feature is a breach of contract no matter how much they might like to think they can reduce the service at will. No court would allow them to remove such a key feature.
> 
> Do we know who our contract is with?


It was with TiVo UK, presumably now with TiVo US..

But this talk of contracts is nonsense; a) the T&C agreement says explicitly that they can vary the service as and when they like, and b) since you can cancel the contract without penalty at any time, the damage caused by tiVo being "in breach" is zero.

The exception being recent lifetimers.

20 months comes in because people took out lifetimes not to have their beloved Series 1s still working while they sat in their retirement , but to save money over having a monthly sub. Once that's been achieved then there is no material damage from a reduction in service level, and therfore no basis for a claim.


----------



## mdolan

TCM2007 said:


> I'm confused - TiVoPony has come on here and told us exactly what happened, so far as we know as soon as it was possible to do so. Are you saying TiVo should have pre-announced that they were going to accidentally break suggestions?


I'm saying it is rather symptomatic of Tivos mode of operation in the UK. We waited weeks after problems were posted here (and many people making telephone calls). No information was forthcoming and no official Tivo statement of "ok, we'll look into it" - but that is because Tivo has been happily ignoring the UK. The only other "recent" posting was when the subs model was directly threatened. Amazing how they found manpower to not only investigate the subs problem but actually fix it. Money talks 

Back to suggestions. Eventually Tivo blame Tribune for a change and say "tough". Now, given that Tivo are still selling and charging for the service they have a responsibility for maintenance of the service. Note - we don't pay Tribune for the service. We pay Tivo.

So obviously no-one in Tivo HQ is monitoring the provided service. Or if they are, then this should have been spotted and actioned long before this stage or an announcement should have been made sooner.

As it stands, we get a belated announcement blaming everyone but themselves and refusing to fix the issue. I thought Tivo wrote the software for our boxes?

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> 20 months comes in because people took out lifetimes not to have their beloved Series 1s still working while they sat in their retirement , but to save money over having a monthly sub. Once that's been achieved then there is no material damage from a reduction in service level, and therfore no basis for a claim.


No their expectation might have been to reduce the level of Monthly Sub to less than £1 per month. In which case their objective has not yet been achieved.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Tracker is still managing to track new episodes of programs in longstanding season passes despite the TMSID for the series allegedly now having a new format.
> 
> So it still seems that Tivo's excuse for Suggestions no longer working does not add up. See below example for Fifth Gear.


As I said, thumbs are stored against series IDs. The examples you have posted are for series ids which pre-date the changes.

And even if the number looks the same to you, it might not be to TiVo, eg 12345 can be represented as a 16-bit or a 32-bit integer. Looks the same to you and me, but is utterly different to a computer.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> No their expectation might have been to reduce the level of Monthly Sub to less than £1 per month. In which case their objective has not yet been achieved.


That makes even less sense than the "size of button = importance of feature" argument.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> And even if the number looks the same to you, it might not be to TiVo, eg 12345 can be represented as a 16-bit or a 32-bit integer. Looks the same to you and me, but is utterly different to a computer.


You seem to be sticking with your view that we mere hick users cannot query Lord God Tivo's position.

But anyhow I think you are now saying I need to start recording programs from series that are new in the last week or two and see if they are Tracked.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> That makes even less sense than the "size of button = importance of feature" argument.


Are you this dismissive of opposing points of view at work too?


----------



## TCM2007

mdolan said:


> So obviously no-one in Tivo HQ is monitoring the provided service. Or if they are, then this should have been spotted and actioned long before this stage or an announcement should have been made sooner.
> 
> As it stands, we get a belated announcement blaming everyone but themselves and refusing to fix the issue. I thought Tivo wrote the software for our boxes?
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike


From my experience of such things, the length of time between the issue being first reported and TiVoPony making his announcement is entirely consistent with how long it would take to identify the problem, figure out any possible solutions, weigh up the cost/benefits of them, and ultimately make a decision.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> You seem to be sticking with your view that we mere hick users cannot query Lord God Tivo's position.
> 
> But anyhow I think you are now saying I need to start recording programs from series that are new in the last week or two and see if they are Tracked.


Or just look in MFS at the data for a brand new series and post the TMSIF here - might be easier!


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Are you this dismissive of opposing points of view at work too?


When their arguments are as nonsensical.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> When their arguments are as nonsensical.


Everyone else in this thread is clearly a committed current Tivo user who wants to see the service continue as it is.

But you on the other hand have already deserted to another product and are smugly telling us we should not have expected the full Tivo service to last any longer from the security of feeling that you have invested in the more recent and current Windows MCE PVR platform.

To my mind your continued participation in this thread (especially making the kind of pro Tivo management comments you are making) in those circumstances amounts to little more than bear baiting.

I thank you for your excellent work in inventing Endpad, Tracker, the rc.sysinit file editor and many other things but I really don't see what your continued defence of the Tivo management's position in this particular thread is really likely to achieve?

As to not feeling angry I expect there were plenty of people of more placid dispositions who were not angry when the Twin Towers were destroyed or who are not angry that the Labour government left tens of thousands of pensioners with Equitable Life in the lurch while unnecessarily bailing out Northern Rock just because a lot more Labour voters lived in its main branch areas. However those people who don't get angry about injustices are clearly of a different personality type to that of myself and various other members of the Tivocommunity forum.


----------



## steveroe

Pete77 said:


> As to not feeling angry I expect there were plenty of people of more placid dispositions who were not angry when Poland was invaded ...


And thus Godwin's Law came to pass.


----------



## mdolan

TCM2007 said:


> From my experience of such things, the length of time between the issue being first reported and TiVoPony making his announcement is entirely consistent with how long it would take to identify the problem, figure out any possible solutions, weigh up the cost/benefits of them, and ultimately make a decision.


Just for reference it is worth remembering that it took 3 weeks before TivoPony was even aware there was an issue and even then that was pure chance - to quote TivoPony 2008-09-17: "Just to be fair here, I must admit that I wasn't aware of the broken Season Pass issue or the Lifetime issue until reading this thread just now."



Cheers,
Mike


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> You seem to be sticking with your view that we mere hick users cannot query Lord God Tivo's position.


Or, more probably, that it's a "programming" thing and if you don't understand it go do some research. Maybe?


----------



## shozoku

Has anyone contacted Tivo/Sky support since TivoPony's update to get any official notification? I'd be interested in there explanation and reaction to the situation and the response to the suggestion that reduced service should equal reduced (monthly)subs.


----------



## TCM2007

mdolan said:


> Just for reference it is worth remembering that it took 3 weeks before TivoPony was even aware there was an issue and even then that was pure chance - to quote TivoPony 2008-09-17: "Just to be fair here, I must admit that I wasn't aware of the broken Season Pass issue or the Lifetime issue until reading this thread just now."
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike


Yes, it seems that it took his intervention to get the matter expedited.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> To my mind your continued participation in this thread in those circumstances amounts to little more than bear baiting..


...said the pot to the kettle, asking for several hundred threads of off-topic wibbling and arguing for the sake of it to be taken into account,


----------



## geekspeak

For me whatever happens now, the Tivo brand will have lost the "it just works" factor. I work in systems development and I would not even consider introducing any changes without thoroughly considering all potential impacts and consequences and it seems to me that there have been several cases recently where this simply hasn't been done.

What sets Tivo apart from the competition is that it learns what you watch and automatically records programs it thinks you might like. Not any more.

Furthermore there is now no way to know how much disk space is free. This has already caused me to lose a number of programs that I really wanted to watch. This means it is no longer a device that can be relied upon, in my opinion.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> I really don't see what your continued defence of the Tivo management's position in this particular thread is really likely to achieve?


Well TiVo have made their decision, so it's not clear what anyone's posts are going to acheive.

It _is _clear you are going to treat this as one of your evil management vs citizens rights campaigner Pete issues which you so enjoy, see threads passim, when anyone who can see why a company reached a decision is dismissed as a capitalist lapdog, usuall with a few personal barbs thrown in for good measure,



> As to not feeling angry I expect there were plenty of people of more placid dispositions who were not angry when Poland was invaded.


So you are equating TiVo's management with Nazi Germany? I find that funny that you can say that and apparently mean it, but others may find it offensive.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> ...said the pot to the kettle, asking for several hundred threads of off-topic wibbling and arguing for the sake of it to be taken into account,


But why are you here at all when you are not afflicted by this problem.

I would have thought you would have been cheerily watching one of those glorious Blu Ray disks of yours on your nice new Pioneer Full HD screen secure in the knowledge that Tivo was consigned to history in your household.


----------



## TCM2007

geekspeak said:


> Furthermore there is now no way to know how much disk space is free. This has already caused me to lose a number of programs that I really wanted to watch. This means it is no longer a device that can be relied upon, in my opinion.


If you really want to keep them, set them to Keep until I delete, which is the feature designed for that purpose.

If your TiVo is hacked there are on screen free space display hacks.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> But why are you here at all when you are not afflicted by this problem.
> 
> I would have thought you would have been cheerily watching one of those glorious Blu Ray disks of yours on your nice new Pioneer Full HD screen secure in the knowledge that Tivo was consigned to history in your household.


If you read back through the thread you'll find I was discussing ways that a hack might restore Suggestions.

Anyway, with this Nero system I might be back soon!


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> If you really want to keep them, set them to Keep until I delete, which is the feature designed for that purpose.


Not a setting to be used lightly if you only have 40GB as otherwise you instead soon get missed recordings due to inadequate free disk space..........



> If your TiVo is hacked there are on screen free space display hacks.


I'm not sure that this owner's Tivo is hacked.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> If you read back through the thread you'll find I was discussing ways that a hack might restore Suggestions.


OK fair point. Now that certainly would be constructive.



> Anyway, with this Nero system I might be back soon!


Are you saying you think Tivo will be launching the Nero PC product in the UK with a UK EPG service? I thought we had previously ruled that out as unlikely.


----------



## JNLister

Pete77 said:


> A great article covering all the main ground. How many readers a day or a week does your site get? I take it that you are yourself an American based in the United States?
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Cheers - no, I'm British and living in England. Tivo user from 2002 until a couple of months ago when I ditched Sky, moved to a house with Virgin cable and found the combination of the on-demand feature and torrents did enough that I could get buy without it (and without overly confusing the new missus with too many shiny boxes). That said, there's 240 hours of stuff still on the Tivo to be watched sometime...
> 
> Not 100% sure, but I believe the site averages around 20-25,000 readers a day.


----------



## Pete77

Some of you may be interested to hear that TivoPony has now posted over in a thread in the US Tivo Help Centre forum section discussing the apparent recent loss of Suggestions functionality on US Series 1 Tivo machines.

He is suggesting that even if this has happened at present in the US it definitely won't be permanent as unlike the UK's v 2.5.x software the US Series 1 software can be made to cope with the change. For this I would read that Tivo Inc will actually roll out a new S1 software version in the US but can't be bothered to do so in the UK because they don't think they have any reputation to be damaged here in terms of lost potential new sales in our marketplace.

Those of you who have registered your unhappiness in this UK thread regarding the withdrawal of the Suggestions feature may therefore be interested to visit the US thread and make your views on the UK's loss of Suggestions known more fully to the US Series 1 Tivo user base.

See www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6723997#post6723997


----------



## cwaring

JNLister said:


> That said, there's 240 hours of stuff still on the Tivo to be watched sometime....


Holy Frijole! Is it me or is that just completely nuts?!


----------



## Trinitron

Pete77 said:


> Some of you may be interested to hear that TivoPony has now posted over in a thread in the US Tivo Help Centre forum section discussing the apparent recent loss of Suggestions functionality on US Series 1 Tivo machines.
> 
> He is suggesting that even if this has happened at present in the US it definitely won't be permanent as unlike the UK's v 2.5.x software the US Series 1 software can be made to cope with the change. For this I would read that Tivo Inc will actually roll out a new S1 software version in the US but can't be bothered to do so in the UK because they don't think they have any reputation to be damaged here in terms of lost potential new sales in our marketplace.


I've only just picked up this thread as I'm currently in the US, in the purgatory that is Time Warner Cable and their horrible DVR software.

Like lots of others, I think suggestions are one of Tivo's attractions. But not the only one. Ok, they have stopped working because some programmers didn't have the foresight 10 years ago to make a data field large enough. Tivo's Millennium (+8) bug, anyone?

I also agree that still charging £10 a month for the service is steep, given the lack of updates and patchy product support. I have a lifetime sub so to be honest I will just shrug off the suggestions bug and be grateful for the service I have had.

Just one final point. We are dealing with a US-based business mindset. Whinge all you want, but if enough monthly subscription payers pull out and go elsewhere (but to whom exactly? Where is the equivalent service?) then the bean counters in Alviso will definitely pull the plug on the UK IMHO. And that way no one wins.


----------



## TiVoPony

Pete77 said:


> Some of you may be interested to hear that TivoPony has now posted over in a thread in the US Tivo Help Centre forum section discussing the apparent recent loss of Suggestions functionality on US Series 1 Tivo machines.
> 
> He is suggesting that even if this has happened at present in the US it definitely won't be permanent as unlike the UK's v 2.5.x software the US Series 1 software can be made to cope with the change. For this I would read that Tivo Inc will actually roll out a new S1 software version in the US but can't be bothered to do so in the UK because they don't think they have any reputation to be damaged here in terms of lost potential new sales in our marketplace.
> 
> Those of you who have registered your unhappiness in this UK thread regarding the withdrawal of the Suggestions feature may therefore be interested to visit the US thread and make your views on the UK's loss of Suggestions known more fully to the US Series 1 Tivo user base.
> 
> See www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6723997#post6723997


Pete77, this is a complete misrepresentation of my post. I understand your disappointment to the UK situation, but to twist my post into something it isn't is inappropriate.

The issue some customers in the US are reporting does not appear to be what you've experienced in the UK.

Pony


----------



## Pete77

TiVoPony said:


> Pete77, this is a complete misrepresentation of my post. I understand your disappointment to the UK situation, but to twist my post into something it isn't is inappropriate.
> 
> The issue some customers in the US are reporting does not appear to be what you've experienced in the UK.


Bob,

I'm sorry if you feel that I misrepresented your post in any possible way. If there is some other fundamental reason why the US Series 1 version 3.x.x software can cope with the alteration in the TMSIDs at the series level in respect of Suggestions without the need for a new version but the UK software cannot do this without a new software version being released then I'd be grateful to hear what that reason is and why software versions for the UK and US Series 1 models that we were previously led to believe were virtually identical in all but version number are in fact apparently so fundamentally different.

Also I do commend your basic personal fortitude and good intentions in making a number of posts in the US and UK Tivocommunity forum threads with the intention of keeping the US and UK Series 1 user bases fully informed regarding the Suggestions issue. No one could ever doubt your own personal commitment to keeping in touch with the UK user base since you have always been the key man at Tivo who has ensured that this does happen where necessary on the Tivocommunity forums throughout the period of nearly six years that I have owned my UK Tivo. I am equally sure that you will not personally be to blame for any corporate level policy decisions that have resulted in the conclusion that Suggestions for the UK Series 1 Tivos can no longer be economically continued (given that I am sure they could be continued if a new version of the UK Series 1 software to cope with the data format alteration problem was released).

If there is anything further that you can personally do to cause a review of this apparently final business decision regarding the withdrawal of the Suggestions feature on the UK Series 1 units then I'm sure you know that any efforts on your part in that direction would be greatly appreciated by the UK Tivo user base.

Thanks again for all your information on this subject to date and for caring about and bothering to diligently read what is being posted by contributors to this thread in the Tivo UK Tivocommunity forum section. At no time were my criticisms directed at you personally but only at the Tivo corporate position over this issue.


----------



## kitschcamp

TCM2007 said:


> I don't understand some posters aggressive attitude. I find it amazing, and greatly to TiVo's credit, that the service exists at all so many years after it went off sale.


I think the biggest problem is that when you purchase a subscription, whether monthly or one-off, you purchase the service *and* future upgrades. You understand that a proportion of your fee is to keep the system up-to-date. If I was paying monthly I think I'd feel especially aggrieved as I was paying over £10 a month for the guide *and* future upgrades and then be told I wasn't going to get any. Now that, quite frankly, sucks. In the US they've got the option of moving to a new TiVo, here we haven't. A major distinctive feature of TiVo has gone. Yeah, sometimes the suggestions weren't great, but those times it pulls out a gem you think it's the best thing on earth. Several series we like we would never have known about without suggestions.

For the first time *ever* my partner has been swearing and cursing about TiVo. He's not technically minded, but he loves TiVo. Or rather, he did. He now says we may as well have Sky+ as it's just the same. I know it's not, even now, but perception is everything. I feel slightly less aggrieved as we purchased a lifetime sub about 7 years ago, but him...? Boy oh boy.

The sort of customer devotion that the likes of Apple and TiVo have is something that shouldn't be squandered - their evangelists probably do more good than any marketing dollars ever will. If they turn against them, then I'm afraid they'll do more harm than any marketing will recover.

TiVo need to placate the customers now if they are serious about returning to the UK, and being honest probably the monthly and recently purchased lifetimes in priority, even though that would mean me being back of the queue. If there isn't seen to be a perception of something happening that will "rescue" TiVo in the UK, they've had it.


----------



## kitschcamp

Pete77 said:


> Then why are those big Red and Green Thumbs buttons by far the largest buttons on every Tivo remote?





TCM2007 said:


> Is that really the best argument you can come up with?


Do you know what? I'd never have thought it was possible, but I'm with Pete on this one. Suggestions are a key feature and a USP for TiVo over Sky+ and the other PVRs on the market. As his nibs said last night "without suggestions it's just a dumb video recorder like that Boxer thing was".


----------



## kitschcamp

TCM2007 said:


> I'm confused - TiVoPony has come on here and told us exactly what happened, so far as we know as soon as it was possible to do so. Are you saying TiVo should have pre-announced that they were going to accidentally break suggestions?


You've obviously never worked in a quality based company. Any change to systems would require a proper check and testing to see what impact it has. They should have discovered this problem before it went wild. It shouldn't be a case of Joe The Techie decides to make a change on a Friday afternoon, it's let loose, and causes problems. Proper processes should be in place.


----------



## Pete77

kitschcamp said:


> The sort of customer devotion that the likes of Apple and TiVo have is something that shouldn't be squandered - their evangelists probably do more good than any marketing dollars ever will. If they turn against them, then I'm afraid they'll do more harm than any marketing will recover.


Well said. That is indeed precisely the issue which Tivo Inc is currently ignoring.


----------



## Pete77

kitschcamp said:


> You've obviously never worked in a quality based company. Any change to systems would require a proper check and testing to see what impact it has. They should have discovered this problem before it went wild. It shouldn't be a case of Joe The Techie decides to make a change on a Friday afternoon, it's let loose, and causes problems. Proper processes should be in place.


Having worked at a company where quality and an organised and methodical approach was all important and at one with a crazed, out of control and egotistical marketing man in charge who told his salesmen to sign contracts promising whatever data the customer wanted only for us grunts in database management and data supply to find it just could not be done the way the contract said I certainly recognise the huge difference in those two different corporate cultures.

The one thing I'm not clear on as yet is whether Tivo is largely at fault here or if Tribune is partly at fault in restructuring the database format to suit its own operating convenience without properly consulting Tivo beforehand. However if Tivo's contract with Tribune allows TMS to do this without suffering any penalties or other contractual consequences then ultimately management at Tivo is still at fault.


----------



## martink0646

Hi All,

I have some sympathy with both sides of this discussion, I very rarely used suggestions quite often having them turned off for months on end as I also am minimalist regading my NPL. But as a monthly subscriber (from day one) I can also understand how people are feeling.

In all honesty, this is a pretty pointless argument (although to be fair when has that stopped Pete in the past) with a possible solution. TiVo aren't throwing their reputation and the goodwill in the UK intentionally, that would be stupid and idiotic, but they have obviously made an economic decision with regard to the UK and anything said here will not sway that.

How ever, TiVo could regain any loss of esteem here in one fail swoop. By simply speaking to Nero, their JV partners, and confirming here that the TiVo PC solution will be offered in the UK. We don't need a date, just confirmation of intent. This isn't a massive ask by any stretch of the imagination as any worldwide product launch will have this info in the business plan.

A statement to us on this forum saying "Don't worry. TiVo will definately be coming back to the UK. I can't give you a date but it will happen" would do it.

So TiVopony. The ball's in your court!!!!

Martin


----------



## kitschcamp

martink0646 said:


> So TiVopony. The ball's in your court!!!!


Agreed. Just a simple confirmation that the Nero solution is coming to the UK "soon" would start to calm people down.


----------



## Goooner1

Trinitron said:


> I also agree that still charging £10 a month for the service is steep, given the lack of updates and patchy product support. I have a lifetime sub so to be honest I will just shrug off the suggestions bug and be grateful for the service I have had.
> 
> Just one final point. We are dealing with a US-based business mindset. Whinge all you want, but if enough monthly subscription payers pull out and go elsewhere (but to whom exactly? Where is the equivalent service?) then the bean counters in Alviso will definitely pull the plug on the UK IMHO. And that way no one wins.


So what you're saying then, is us mugs that for whatever reason never took out a lifetime sub, should continue paying our £10 per month, for a service which to varying degrees, depending who you ask, is less than it was a month ago, just so you guys with the lifetime sub can keep your TiVos running? 

How about, anyone that's on a lifetime sub, and used their TiVO over 20 months, all start voluntarily paying a monthly sub again as well? That way it might encourage TiVo to renew their UK presence. At the very least it might counteract the amount of people that will now cancel their monthly subs (me more than likely being one of them, I've already got one dumb PVR, Sky HD, why would I want another one, TiVo?)


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Anyway, with this Nero system I might be back soon!


So do you already know something (perhaps wearing your Techradar hat) that you would perhaps like to share with the rest of us in the forum then?


----------



## blindlemon

kitschcamp said:


> Agreed. Just a simple confirmation that the Nero solution is coming to the UK "soon" would start to calm people down.


Or a new Series 3 TiVo 

Honestly, I believe TiVo have the technology sorted and are gearing up to expand into other European markets, so how hard would it be to give us a little hope here....?


----------



## davisa

blindlemon said:


> Or a new Series 3 TiVo
> 
> Honestly, I believe TiVo have the technology sorted and are gearing up to expand into other European markets, so how hard would it be to give us a little hope here....?


Agree :up: PC software is not remotely interesting to me, but a proper new TiVo would be.

We all have ancient TiVo's simply because of TiVo continual refusal to re-enter the UK market. The opportunity is clearly there, but TiVo (for whatever reason) choose not to take it.

TiVo also have yet to make a proper announcement of the withdrawal of the suggestions functionality. Their customers' at least deserve a letter explaining it. Not everyone reads this forum.


----------



## ColinYounger

davisa said:


> Their customers' at least deserve a letter explaining it. Not everyone reads this forum.


Quite. Perhaps a TiVo 'email' message on a daily call.


----------



## Pugwash

Alcatraz said:


> Who says they "can't"? It's more likely that it's not practical for them to fix such a minor issue for a relatively small population of boxes that haven't been updated in.......how long? If most of those boxes are getting lifetime service at whatever price was available back then, they've stopped being a source of revenue long ago.


I pay monthly. That's a potential £120 for them in the next 12 months. I'm sure I'm not the last monthly subscriber affected.
Why can't it be "massaged" by TiVo before sending to the UK machines to re-use old IDs that only american audiences watch? I will admit to complete ignorance of the exact issue here, but on the other hand I spend a few weeks in 1999 solving the Y2K bug in some little-known Payroll application that ran on DOS and paid thousands of UK employees. It was old and messy but not impossible, even on my wage.


----------



## Nero2

Pugwash said:


> I pay monthly. That's a potential £120 for them in the next 12 months. I'm sure I'm not the last monthly subscriber affected.
> Why can't it be "massaged" by TiVo before sending to the UK machines to re-use old IDs that only american audiences watch? I will admit to complete ignorance of the exact issue here, but on the other hand I spend a few weeks in 1999 solving the Y2K bug in some little-known Payroll application that ran on DOS and paid thousands of UK employees. It was old and messy but not impossible, even on my wage.


To a certain extent I think thats the crux of the problem, there will always be some way to fix the problem, after all its only IT.*

But the question is, is there a business case? Whats Tivos current income stream from the UK, do they actually make a profit from us at present? What would be lost in the less tangible benefits of not bothering to fix the problem, loss of brand trust and loyalty?

So would the costs of a fix actually weigh up against not bothering?

(*- Yes I do work in IT.)

Thanks


----------



## kitschcamp

Nero2 said:


> But the question is, is there a business case? Whats Tivos current income stream from the UK, do they actually make a profit from us at present? What would be lost in the less tangible benefits of not bothering to fix the problem, loss of brand trust and loyalty?


The last point is the most crucial. If they plan to re-enter the UK market they either need to fix the current platform, or show us that we have an exit strategy onto their new system in preparation and could we just be a little patient.


----------



## martink0646

davisa said:


> Agree :up: PC software is not remotely interesting to me, but a proper new TiVo would be.
> 
> We all have ancient TiVo's simply because of TiVo continual refusal to re-enter the UK market. The opportunity is clearly there, but TiVo (for whatever reason) choose not to take it.


Hi,

I agree, a S/A TiVo would be fantastic, but in my last post I was trying to be realistic. A new TiVo would require a partner/s to produce the box and in these straightened times I just can not see a major electronics firm taking a punt on this, especially given a history of failure....whatever the reason for that failure. Let's not forget that 'big business' operates on a safety first basis and looks at the downside first before considering the upside.

I called for TiVopony to confirm the Nero tie up alone because of a couple of reasons;

1) The product has been announced
2) There is no need to get the buy-in of an unnamed third party manufacturer and TiVo could use their existing JV relationship to make a quick call to check if it is OK.

IF (a big if in my book) there are ongoing negotiations with a box supplier to build TiVo boxes for the UK/European market an early announcement could sabotage negotiations and in any event it just won't happen.

I was being realistic in calling for the confirmation of a product that with all things being even will happen.

This is a safe product launch for Nero with very little downside for them. It consists of an existing USB tuner dongle (No development costs) and existing software (maybe slightly altered). They probably have no upfront cost to TiVo, TiVo's end being the subscription paid after Nero have received the money so in a risk analysis situation this is a perfect product with very little downside save for advertising and product packaging. The only major cost will be translating the software for the European market so it's no major surprise to me that they are waiting till 2009 to launch. This way if it bombs they can quietly pull the plug on the Euro launch without having translation costs.

To take this a step further, I see that this announcement makes it even less likely that we will ever see a new S/A box for Europe. If TiVo can get someone else to launch, why would they bother themselves with the history of failure. Plus, Euro boxes work to a number of different transmission practices and have totally different connectors meaning in essence surely a completely new box. Unless I'm mistaken, the Aussie box differs from a US box only by which tuner is inside. No different connector layouts and certainly no language changes.

That is why I called for announcement of the PC product as I can see this as being the only way I will ever get my hands on a cutting edge TiVo UI.

Finally, (sorry for being so long) lets be honest. We will all be using a PC as a one box solution under the TV within 10 years anyway which is why I feel it is so important to get this announced now as I feel there is a very small window for this.

Martin


----------



## 6022tivo

Only just seen this thread..

Sad day indeed..

I see the UK Tivo site is still advertising for Subs with the suggestion feature in the online manual. I assume the tivo/sky agents probably have a script they read when signing up saying that some features are no longer???

Ahh well, will still stay loyal, and the box is going strong, and still offers the best interface and use for me anyway.... I only say this as I am lifetime, if I was still paying "&#163;120 a year I would be seriously questioning this..


----------



## Goooner1

6022tivo said:


> Ahh well, will still stay loyal, and the box is going strong, and still offers the best interface and use for me anyway.... I only say this as I am lifetime, if I was still paying "£120 a year I would be seriously questioning this..


Which is exactly in the position I'm in. I love my TiVo, if I was on a lifetime sub, I'd be disappointed with the lack of suggestions, but I keep running the box because of the other excellent features. I'm not though, so it is costing me £120 per year.

Can anyone explain to me what I get for my £120 per year that I can't get from Digiguide for £4.99 per year?


----------



## mikerr

martink0646 said:


> This is a safe product launch for Nero with very little downside for them. It consists of an existing USB tuner dongle (No development costs) and existing software (maybe slightly altered).


Better than that, as you will be able buy the software alone as a download including 1 years subs for $99

Just add your existing MCE supported (BDA drivers) tuners and remote and you are away.

Even doing a 1:1 translation for dollar to pound, £99 would get my money.

..and I could start selling small media PC's with it preinstalled for around £299


----------



## Pugwash

Phew, with Vista, enough ram and quiet case? That's a tight margin.


----------



## mikerr

Wouldn't be vista, and mce2005/freeview works fine on low spec hardware - if the pc is not doing anything else
- don't see why tivo/nero would be much different.

So can I sign you up for a pre-order ?


----------



## Pugwash

Heh, yeah, except I built all my own PC's too. I even have a spare mini-itx machine here I tried before XBMC.

And I have a spare IR receiver from an MCE experiment, and a HTPC case, two digital terrestrial tuner cards.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Are you saying you think Tivo will be launching the Nero PC product in the UK with a UK EPG service? I thought we had previously ruled that out as unlikely.


Well, the EPG already exists, UK BDA video cards exist, it's a niche product which wouldn't require massive marketing or setting up distribution deals through DSG - I think it's a whole heap more likely than a standalone box.

And if it supports HD over DTT (which Media Center doesn't, and shows no signs of doing) then it would have a USP too!


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> And if it supports HD over DTT (which Media Center doesn't, and shows no signs of doing) then it would have a USP too!


Haven't you been able to erect a 20 metre tower disguised as a dead tree to get a satellite signal yet at your far flung rural abode.


----------



## TCM2007

kitschcamp said:


> You've obviously never worked in a quality based company. Any change to systems would require a proper check and testing to see what impact it has. They should have discovered this problem before it went wild. It shouldn't be a case of Joe The Techie decides to make a change on a Friday afternoon, it's let loose, and causes problems. Proper processes should be in place.


I agree it should have been caught, but it's a pretty subtle bug which occurs in software six (?) versions out of date, and which presumably they can't easily test as they don't have a UK office to have a working (ie actually recording) UK TiVo set up in. It's not as if a UK TiVo crashes or indeed does anything you'd notice in a test bed when fed the new format data.

It also a fair bet that no-one there has the kind of familiarity with six-year-old software, untouched in the meantime, to be able to know that this one feature had been bodged to use TMSIDs when it's a design principle of TiVo that it DOESN'T use them for live database work.

I can see how this one slipped though, and I reckon it could have done so however "quality minded" you might be.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Haven't you been able to erect a 20 metre tower disguised as a dead tree to get a satellite signal yet at your far flung rural abode.


It would need to be taller than that!


----------



## TCM2007

ColinYounger said:


> Quite. Perhaps a TiVo 'email' message on a daily call.


The TiVo messages are built-in templates triggered by a command; I don't think they have the ability to put any message they like up.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> It would need to be taller than that!


You must have a very high piece of ground in between your house and Astra at 28 degrees East.

But anyhow I thought you were going to secrete it in one of the neighbour's hedges and then run cables from there.


----------



## kitschcamp

Didn't they use a message to tell us about that survey where we all got the cool TiVo plushies? That surely wasn't a standard template, was it?


----------



## kitschcamp

Pete77 said:


> You must have a very high piece of ground in between your house and Astra at 28 degrees East.


Or just tall trees nearby. Where we are, we've got a single point on the land where we can put the dish for a good line of sight with Astra 28.2E - right outside the kitchen window!


----------



## TCM2007

Pugwash said:


> Why can't it be "massaged" by TiVo before sending to the UK machines to re-use old IDs that only american audiences watch? .


Yes, I would think that would be a possible hack based solution. The difficulty would be knowing which TMSIDs were "safe" to use. Re-use a live one and the SPs would be messed up, recording the wrong things.

Of course exactly this happened a few weeks back if you recall - I wonder if that was the problem which caused them to change the TMSID format, or an attempt to carry on using the old one which went wrong?


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Yes, I would think that would be a possible hack based solution. The difficulty would be knowing which TMSIDs were "safe" to use. Re-use a live one and the SPs would be messed up, recording the wrong things.
> 
> Of course exactly this happened a few weeks back if you recall - I wonder if that was the problem which caused them to change the TMSID format, or an attempt to carry on using the old one which went wrong?


I still think Tivo may yet rethink their current corporate position that Suggestions in the UK cannot be saved now that they have begun to see the strength of feeling on the matter and the possible cross contamination of negative sentiment to the US Tivo user base.

Its not that it can't be done its just that they thought they could get away without bothering to sort it out without the Brits making too much fuss about it. Still upper lip and all that sort of think don't you know.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> You must have a very high piece of ground in between your house and Astra at 28 degrees East.


It's all about the angle! There is a bank behind the house which rises from the back door to higher than the top of the roof in about 50 feet or so - properly steep. On top of this bank is a row of mature trees, each of which is taller than the house. Behind the trees is a footpath and the far side of the footpath has a very tall hedge, stopping me putting a dish on the far side of a tree.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Behind the trees is a footpath and the far side of the footpath has a very tall hedge, stopping me putting a dish on the far side of a tree.


Unless you dig up the footpath to lay the cable under and put the dish on the other side of the hedge. But that would take the permission and co-operation of the person owning that piece of land...........

I'm assuming the footpath is earth but if its concrete or tarmac then things are even more messy.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Unless you dig up the footpath to lay the cable under and put the dish on the other side of the hedge. But that would take the permission and co-operation of the person owning that piece of land...........
> 
> I'm assuming the footpath is earth but if its concrete or tarmac then things are even more messy.


Hedge is owned by Network Rail, so I can't help but think getting that permission could be long winded. Council probably wouldn't be that keen on my digging up thir footpath either!

To be honest, once I'd decided to abandon any sense of legality to my HD Bittrorrenting (have you seen the new Knight Rider? Hysterical!) The only thing I miss is live rugby union - and ITV4 have bought the highlights rights so even that is not too bad.


----------



## ColinYounger

Wow - this thread is demonstrating something like bereavement. We've gone through denial, anger and are in hope. Next: acceptance.


----------



## AdrianWJ

For anyone who has not seen this:

New software turns PC into TiVo TV recorder

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080929/ap_on_hi_te/apfn_tec_tivo_for_the_pc

http://www.nero.com/enu/liquidtv-introduction.html



> Joshua Danovitz, vice president and general manager of international business at TiVo, said the plan is to launch it in Europe next year.


----------



## ColinYounger

Jam tomorrow.


----------



## ag5002

Although I undersand that the loss of suggestions makes some people think that the subscription is now overpriced, personally I think the EPG is worth the sub alone.

I miss suggestions, it was a major plus point, but the various other PVR's out there are very poor by comparision and have difficult to use EPG's. Indeed, most freeview based ones only have 7 days of data. Tivo allows a search for other showings of programmes, and I have never missed anything I wanted since adding a freeview box. I tried SKY+ once, and didn't like it.

I just hope that the service continues in the UK. Add the hack talked about elsewhere on these forums and full functionality should be returned. Then sit back and wait for the Nero product to hit Europe, and build a brand new shiny model.


----------



## TiVoPony

martink0646 said:


> How ever, TiVo could regain any loss of esteem here in one fail swoop. By simply speaking to Nero, their JV partners, and confirming here that the TiVo PC solution will be offered in the UK. We don't need a date, just confirmation of intent. This isn't a massive ask by any stretch of the imagination as any worldwide product launch will have this info in the business plan.
> 
> A statement to us on this forum saying "Don't worry. TiVo will definately be coming back to the UK. I can't give you a date but it will happen" would do it.
> 
> So TiVopony. The ball's in your court!!!!
> 
> Martin


The PC product belongs to Nero, I don't have the privilege of speaking to their product plans. Anything announcements regarding that product and which markets they intend to offer it in would come from Nero.

Pony


----------



## JaybirdUK

Ok, this is just my opinion but given the recent downground in Series 1 capability here is my personal list of what would keep me happy as a TiVo customer

Any will do!

1. Give intent to come back into the UK market fully
2. Reduce the current subscription fee to £6 per month now we only have partial service
3. Release a Series2/Series3 that works with UK EPG, disable any other feature that wont work over. I'd even buy from the USA at increased price to cover additional costs.
4. Release Nero TiVo PC in the UKand I'll build my own unit!

I just want to see a light at the end of the current very dark tunnel, if we could just have a glimmer of hope I'll hold off getting a V+ box.

To be honest I see only option 2 or 4 being easy to achieve


----------



## Goooner1

ag5002 said:


> Although I undersand that the loss of suggestions makes some people think that the subscription is now overpriced, personally I think the EPG is worth the sub alone.
> 
> I miss suggestions, it was a major plus point, but the various other PVR's out there are very poor by comparision and have difficult to use EPG's. Indeed, most freeview based ones only have 7 days of data. Tivo allows a search for other showings of programmes, and I have never missed anything I wanted since adding a freeview box. I tried SKY+ once, and didn't like it.


What about Digiguide though? £5 per year, compared to £120 per year TiVo sub? Ok, so you have to manually set the recordings into the PVR of your choice, but with suggestions gone, is there anything Digiguide doesn't do that TiVo does? Serious question, because I'm struggling to see much difference and certainly not £115 worth of differences.


----------



## ag5002

Tivo Pony...

One thing should be *very* clear from these forums. Everyone _loves_ Tivo.

The market for the UK could be huge given the right marketing. But if not, Tivo should at least provide something for its long standing UK fans.

If there are no real plans for a UK comeback, then at least re-assure us that the service will continue. I for one would be happy to build my own new Tivo if the Nero product will work in the UK, even if I have to import it. And HD?


----------



## cwaring

ColinYounger said:


> Next: acceptance.


Was I the only one who skipped straight to that then?


----------



## davisa

ag5002 said:


> I miss suggestions, it was a major plus point, but the various other PVR's out there are very poor by comparision and have difficult to use EPG's. Indeed, most freeview based ones only have 7 days of data. Tivo allows a search for other showings of programmes, and I have never missed anything I wanted since adding a freeview box. I tried SKY+ once, and didn't like it.


My Topfield (which arrived 10 minutes ago  ) can get its guide data from the radio times site for free.


----------



## Royalflush

Having followed the original thread where this was originally reported, I must say that I am not wholly surprised. 
Gutted. :down::down::down:


----------



## geekspeak

Royalflush said:


> Having followed the original thread where this was originally reported, I must say that I am not wholly surprised.
> Gutted. :down::down::down:


I can't see it being long now before they pull the plug on the UK entirely. I seem to be getting more and more recordings that don't match the program in the epg and then the problems with series links. I wonder if that will be done in the same way, in that it will just "stop working" and then a few weeks later, those still moaning get told that's it :down::down::down:


----------



## cleudo

If they do pull the plug on the UK - and we go down the Australian route, will we get suggestions back?


----------



## chrisocc

Great ! Fantastic ! After effectively being without Tivo for over a year by keeping it in the spare room and never going in there. I missed it so much I finally last weekend re-routed my 2nd sky box cable to my main room ( not an easy task) so I could once more enjoy the delights of Tivo again, especially the suggestions. I was going to get a lifetime sub in the next few days but luckily noticed the suggestions not working and found this thread, I bet they wouldnt have mentioned the change when iwas giving them my £200!!. 

The suggestions was one of the major selling points for me, the other the superior, to SKY, programme guide but that alone isnt worth £10 . Is there anyway to use the tivo as a basic pvr with another comparable programme guide ?


----------



## cwaring

geekspeak said:


> I can't see it being long now before they pull the plug on the UK entirely.


You do realise that people have been saying this regularly for _at least_ the last five years, don't you?


----------



## martink0646

TiVoPony said:


> The PC product belongs to Nero, I don't have the privilege of speaking to their product plans. Anything announcements regarding that product and which markets they intend to offer it in would come from Nero.
> 
> Pony


Hi,

Thanks for getting back. I understand that you don't want to/won't speak for Nero, but as their partners/supplier in this venture and taking into account your job role at TiVo, I'm sure you know the answer.

As you can't tell us, could you give us a contact at Nero who we can go to. PM me if you don't want it on a public forum.

I think most of the ill will is caused by the information vacuum. Give us something and I think you'll find most of us will be relatively satisfied.

Martin


----------



## TiVoPony

martink0646 said:


> Hi,
> 
> As you can't tell us, could you give us a contact at Nero who we can go to. PM me if you don't want it on a public forum.


Hi Martin,

I don't have a personal contact at Nero that I can share, I'd suggest the best way to voice your interest is to contact Nero through the list they've published on their website:

http://www.nero.com/enu/contact.html

Pony


----------



## TiVoPony

ag5002 said:


> Tivo Pony...
> 
> If there are no real plans for a UK comeback, then at least re-assure us that the service will continue.


I can't speak to plans for a UK comeback, that's not a realistic thing to ask me to comment on (whether plans exist or not...either way). My position at TiVo gives me a lot of flexibility, but that does not include the ability to pre-announce products, partners, features...anything like that. We frown on information like that when it's leaked by others, imagine what my life here would be like if *I* were the leak! 

I simply couldn't say either way, and I'm not trying to be coy at all. The box we've built for the Australia market certainly has application in any number of markets worldwide, but that's just part of the story. Having the right partnerships and the right opportunity are key to making any venture a success.

All of that said, I'm not aware of any discussion regarding discontinuing the UK service. We've kept it up and running for years now, and appreciate that you're all still enjoying your TiVo systems. Besides, imagine what Mike Ramsay's relatives would have to say if that happened! You all aren't the only ones over there with TiVo Series1's. 

Thanks,
Pony


----------



## geekspeak

cwaring said:


> You do realise that people have been saying this regularly for _at least_ the last five years, don't you?


*I* haven't been, until now


----------



## Nero2

So here's my take on the UK suggestions issue, with a few ideas thrown in.

Please bear in mind that whilst I've worked extensively in the IT industry I don't have any firsthand knowledge of the Tivo set-up, and hence much speculation is contained herein.

Both UK and US S1 machines have seemingly suffered from a loss of suggestions functionality at the same time (see here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=394935). Whilst this thread contains quite a lot of noise from owners of US S2 and S3 boxes it would appear that all posters with US S1 boxes are effected along with us UK owners. Again bear in mind that "thumbing-up" can seemingly result in a suggestion being recorded until the next "mother-ship call" resets all suggestions hence some more thread noise.

I know that TivoPony seems to think that the UK and US failures are unconnected, but the coincidence of timing seems too significant to ignore. At no stage am I suggesting that TivoPony is lying, but maybe there is more afoot than he's aware of.

There is a suggestion that a TMSID change made by Tribune has resulted in our UK issue, TivoPony has indicated that no recent TMSID change has been made to the US data download. From what little I understand the US and the UK S1 client software versions are identical (save for a different version numbers), and I would guess that the client DB structure is the same. So if the data feed can still support both the data structure and functionality of the US S1 boxes why cannot it support the UK boxes?

Ok, so maybe Tribune did make some data structure changes to the EPG data, perhaps to support future S3 needs, that have resulted in S1 suggestion functionality failing. But surely a re-defined UK/US S1 data feed could be supplied, I'm assuming that S1, S2 and S3 boxes don't use a single data feed but somehow differentiate at a meta level.

As I type this out it makes even less sense, OK we have an issue with unique programme IDs as supplied by Tribune but surely this is addressable?

After the above rubbish here is my suggestion:

*TivoPony:* I would be personally willing to fund an in/out house developer (not sure what model you use) to actually research a solution to this. Yes, suggestions are that important to me.

Thanks


----------



## adamfoulkes

Hi all,
Like everyone else, I am really sad that Tivo can no longer record suggestions. I used them the odd time and they were pretty good. I just wanted to thank TivoPony for the input he has given to all of our posts of concern. I guess he doesn't have to contribute but it is great that he does! I think it is also great that people are still so passionate about Tivo. Its a great system. Like others, I would jump at the chance for a new Tivo box but I won't hold my breath. Instead, I have my ebay bought LT sub machine in my bedroom and I watch my fave programmes when I feel like it.
I am a fan of this forum too.I am glad to be part of the Tivo clan! Keep up the good work guys !


----------



## Pugwash

And I'd like to thank mikerr for his suggs.tcl which has populated my suggestions tonight. I think this goes to show that one man with incentive can out-perform a business with none.

<<virtual handshake>>


----------



## TCM2007

Can someone with TiVoWeb access post some of the new TMSIDs for us to look at? They would have to be for entirely new series whose first broadcast is in the last couple of weeks. How about Jamie's Ministry of Food?


----------



## Nero2

TCM2007 said:


> Can someone with TiVoWeb access post some of the new TMSIDs for us to look at? They would have to be for entirely new series whose first broadcast is in the last couple of weeks. How about Jamie's Ministry of Food?


Episode Title (1/4) 
Episode Description Jamie begins his quest to get people across Britain to cook fresh food again in Rotherham, Yorkshire. 
Episode Number 
More Info Search TV.com for 'Jamie's Ministry of Food' --- Search provided by TV.com. 
Duration 1:00 
Original Air Date 30th Sep 2008 
Genres Cooking, Health and Fitness 
Bits R 
Type Series 
Channel 13 C4P1 
Showing Date Thu 2nd Oct 00:00 
MFS Data tmsid=*EP010092215000*, ShowingObject, SeriesObject

Here you are.


----------



## mikerr

How about heroes countdown:

The long ones stand out looking through /mfs/Recording/TmsId

Program 2556429/12 {
ServerVersion = 3
TmsId = SH010078560000
Title = {Heroes Countdown}
Series = 2556428/-1
Description = {As part of the countdown to the third series of `Heroes', this special programme treats viewers to sneak peeks, behind-the-scenes footage and an introduction to new characters.}
DescLanguage = English
ShowType = 3
Genre = 34 88 100 1004 1014
ColorCode = 4
IsEpisode = 1
OriginalAirDate = 14148
ServerId = 11532330
Version = 1
IndexPath = /Server/11532330
}

..and a normal one:

Program 2564566/11 {
ServerVersion = 2
TmsId = EP7728605033
Title = {Heroes Unmasked}
Series = 2554439/-1
Description = {A preview of what the latest series of `Heroes' has in store.}
DescLanguage = English
ShowType = 5
EpisodeTitle = {Pandora's Box}
Genre = 34 39 1004 1014 1021
ColorCode = 4
IsEpisode = 1
OriginalAirDate = 14153
ServerId = 11544827
Version = 1
IndexPath = /Server/11544827
}


----------



## DeadKenny

Re: the nero option...

Problem is, what I want out of a replacement for my TiVo is something that has a better picture quality that meets the spec of today's TVs. Nero isn't going to provide me an option with a DVB card where I can plug in a Sky viewing card is it? No (chance).

At best for Sky (and likely Virgin), Nero's option is just TiVo series 1 quality with all its analogue/digital conversions plus maybe some other fluff (that admittedly might be nice), and no guarantee it will ever turn up in the UK anyway (if it's going to rely on analogue it'll still need a SCART socket for starters!).

Nice for the enthusiasts, but other than that Nero's option is way too late in the game. The UK is well and truly stitched up by Mr. Murdoch, those muppets in Virgin, and the consortium of Freeview/Freesat PVR manufacturers who all want to do their own thing.


----------



## cwaring

martink0646 said:


> I think most of the ill will is caused by the information vacuum.


What 'information vacuum' is that then? A problem was identified and, unfortunately, no solution was found. All this has been communicated by Tivo, through TP. Hardly a 'vacuum'.

Anything else, on any other subject, is pure speculation.


----------



## TiVoPony

To provide just an update with a bit more detail, the change Tribune made was to lengthen the TMSID's from twelve digits to fourteen for new programs. The Suggestions algorithm in the Series1 boxes (both US and UK) doesn't know how to handle fourteen digit identifiers. So it goes bork.

In the US, the Series1 DVR's run a newer version of software than that used in the UK. That software factors in a collaborative data feed into the Suggestions engine. Essentially it points to programs recorded by other TiVo subscribers who have tastes similar to yours. The current collaborative data feed (it's actually a data set) is based on twelve digit ID's. And that's how it will remain. There are no plans to update that data set, as the algorithms in US Series1's couldn't handle newer fourteen digit data (whether it's straight from thumbing the guide data or via a newer collab data set).

That's why we believe we're seeing less of an issue here in the US. We still don't fully understand it, but we do know that the change to TMSID's in the US happened last Fall, and did not result in any issues at that time. There have not been recent changes to the data in the US to our knowledge. The first reports of issues with Suggestions in the US were posted on the forum in May, not at all subsequent with the issue in the UK.

So I can't for certain they aren't related in some way, but they do appear to be different in several ways. Like I said earlier in this thread, we understand why the UK boxes are not recording. In the US, it's not clear what's going on yet. But we know it's not the exact same situation.

And now I'm realizing this information really belongs over in the US thread. 

Unfortunately I have to run for the moment, the real world needs some of my immediate attention. Will have to update that other thread later.

Thanks all -

Pony


----------



## TiVoPony

Just as an aside, the real world thing that needed my attention was our dog. Needed to go for a walk. So we went walking with TiVoDataGuy and his dog, they live down the street. Nice night for a walk here. We spent a good bit of it talking about Suggestions. 

Pony


----------



## martink0646

cwaring said:


> What 'information vacuum' is that then? A problem was identified and, unfortunately, no solution was found. All this has been communicated by Tivo, through TP. Hardly a 'vacuum'.
> 
> Anything else, on any other subject, is pure speculation.


Oh come on Carl!!!! With all due respect, how many official pronouncements from TiVo have there been in the last five years with regard to the UK? Errr....none! You even utilise this fact yourself in this very thread.



cwaring said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by geekspeak View Post
> I can't see it being long now before they pull the plug on the UK entirely.
> You do realise that people have been saying this regularly for at least the last five years, don't you?


The reason people have been saying this is the singular lack of pronouncements for TiVo. If you've been reading the thread which I'm sure you have, my posts have all been about the bigger picture & the future. If you want to take what I say out of context for the sake of having a go, fine.

In fact being needlessly argumentative, totally out of context for the sake of it and your post count. You're beginning to sound like Pete.....Sorry, that's possibly the most unfair thing I've ever said

Martin


----------



## cwaring

martink0646 said:


> Oh come on Carl!!!! With all due respect, how many official pronouncements from TiVo have there been in the last five years with regard to the UK? Errr....none! You even utilise this fact yourself in this very thread.


Sorry. I thought we were talking about _this_ problem.



martink0646 said:


> In fact being needlessly argumentative, totally out of context for the sake of it and your post count. You're beginning to sound like Pete.....Sorry, that's possibly the most unfair thing I've ever said


You're forgiven, but only just.


----------



## davisa

cwaring said:


> Sorry. I thought we were talking about _this_ problem.:


The vast majority of UK customers have not been informed of any withdrawal of service or had any communication from TiVo what so ever.

_We_ know this forum is great, but many don't even know it exists.


----------



## TCM2007

Nero2 said:


> MFS Data tmsid=*EP010092215000*
> 
> Here you are.


Well there are definitely two extra digits there, but have they also changed the format? The last four digits used to be the episode identifier within a series, but is it now 5? Is the second episode of Jamie's thinng in the data yet?


----------



## TCM2007

DeadKenny said:


> Re: the nero option...
> 
> Problem is, what I want out of a replacement for my TiVo is something that has a better picture quality that meets the spec of today's TVs. Nero isn't going to provide me an option with a DVB card where I can plug in a Sky viewing card is it? No (chance).


It would probably work with a DragonCAM, so yes.


----------



## TCM2007

TiVoPony said:


> To provide just an update with a bit more detail, the change Tribune made was to lengthen the TMSID's from twelve digits to fourteen for new programs. The Suggestions algorithm in the Series1 boxes (both US and UK) doesn't know how to handle fourteen digit identifiers. So it goes bork.
> 
> In the US, the Series1 DVR's run a newer version of software than that used in the UK. That software factors in a collaborative data feed into the Suggestions engine. Essentially it points to programs recorded by other TiVo subscribers who have tastes similar to yours. The current collaborative data feed (it's actually a data set) is based on twelve digit ID's. And that's how it will remain. There are no plans to update that data set, as the algorithms in US Series1's couldn't handle newer fourteen digit data (whether it's straight from thumbing the guide data or via a newer collab data set).


Thanks TiVoPony, that makes perfect sense.

It also opens up a possible hack solution, of changing the TMSIDs back to 12-digit ones.

The main obstacles would be a) forcing TiVo to rebuild whatever list of TMSIDs it holds for suggestions (assuming it is that bit which is broken) and b) and finding unused TMSIDs to assign to new data

I can see a solution to b) if you could read the existing suggestions file. I guess a) would take some experimentation to find something that worked.


----------



## Nero2

TCM2007 said:


> Is the second episode of Jamie's thinng in the data yet?


Episode Title (2/4) 
Episode Description Jamie attends a Rotherham United football match to persuade some of the fans to join his cooking revolution. 
Episode Number 
More Info Search TV.com for 'Jamie's Ministry of Food' --- Search provided by TV.com. 
Duration 1:00 
Original Air Date 7th Oct 2008 
Genres Cooking, Health and Fitness 
Type Series 
Channel 4 C4 
Showing Date Tue 7th Oct 21:00 
MFS Data tmsid=*EP010092215001*, ShowingObject, SeriesObject

Here you are.


----------



## TCM2007

Cool, it's still working the same way then.

Now, when Suggestions come back to life after a thumb, does it come back to life completely or do you just get suggestions based on the new thumb?


----------



## Nero2

TCM2007 said:


> Cool, it's still working the same way then.
> 
> Now, when Suggestions come back to life after a thumb, does it come back to life completely or do you just get suggestions based on the new thumb?


From what little "testing" I've done only on the new thumb, I would probably need to do some further "thumbing" to double check.

If we are receiving TSMIDs in a format that our DB structures aren't happy with, would it be possible to either hack the DB structure or hack the import routines to re-format the incoming data?

Thanks


----------



## TiVoPony

TCM2007 said:


> Thanks TiVoPony, that makes perfect sense.
> 
> It also opens up a possible hack solution, of changing the TMSIDs back to 12-digit ones.
> 
> The main obstacles would be ...finding unused TMSIDs to assign to new data


Glad it helps explain. Unfortunately you've hit upon the key issue. The reason Tribune went from 12 to 14 digits for new programs is because they'd run out of numbers to use. There aren't 'unused' ID's, the twelve digit ID's have been used up. It's surprising to think that there have ever been that many shows over the years, but Tribune insists it's true...and ID's encompass movies as well. Remember also that their coverage accounts for international media and markets.

So if you reclaim an old twelve digit ID to replace a new fourteen digit ID...you don't know what you're taking that ID away from. It could be an old movie from the 1950's that some channel is about to broadcast again. Or a classic series from the 60's someone is about to put out on DVD (yes, ID's are used across different delivery mechanisms, such as DVD, as well). You can start to understand Tribune's reluctance to reassign old ID's...they just can't say that that old show or movie isn't going to pop up again one day.

Hacks typically ignore such ramifications. If it's a little wonky it's wonky. Businesses try not to have wonkyness. That's understandable. Unfortunately the shift to the 14 digit format for identifying new programs has prevented Suggestions from working in the UK. All other TiVo features continue to work though, as they do not rely on that TMSID.

Pony


----------



## ColinYounger

Well, all TMSIDs are used if you stick to the same structure of IDs - if we switched it around a little...


----------



## ColinYounger

Mr Pony Sir,

To aid our hacking efforts, could someone please let us know what event we could raise to get the suggestions engine to take notice of programmed thumbs?

If we add some to the database, the suggestions engine doesn't take any notice, even when we raise a $TmkEvent::EVT_DATA_CHANGED.


----------



## TCM2007

TiVoPony said:


> Glad it helps explain. Unfortunately you've hit upon the key issue. The reason Tribune went from 12 to 14 digits for new programs is because they'd run out of numbers to use. There aren't 'unused' ID's, the twelve digit ID's have been used up. It's surprising to think that there have ever been that many shows over the years, but Tribune insists it's true...and ID's encompass movies as well. Remember also that their coverage accounts for international media and markets.
> 
> So if you reclaim an old twelve digit ID to replace a new fourteen digit ID...you don't know what you're taking that ID away from. It could be an old movie from the 1950's that some channel is about to broadcast again. Or a classic series from the 60's someone is about to put out on DVD (yes, ID's are used across different delivery mechanisms, such as DVD, as well). You can start to understand Tribune's reluctance to reassign old ID's...they just can't say that that old show or movie isn't going to pop up again one day.
> 
> Hacks typically ignore such ramifications. If it's a little wonky it's wonky. Businesses try not to have wonkyness. That's understandable. Unfortunately the shift to the 14 digit format for identifying new programs has prevented Suggestions from working in the UK. All other TiVo features continue to work though, as they do not rely on that TMSID.
> 
> Pony


I reckon we could come up with something which worked 99% of the time or better.

That's because while TiVo/Tribune cares that a TMSID is not duplicated anywhere on its systems, we only care that it is not duplicated on an individual TiVo.

We know that MFS doesn't store the Showing object of thumbed programmes forever, it must therefore be keeping some kind of data table of shows that have been thumbed referencing their TMSID. If we could access that, then as long as we avoided reallocating a 14-digit show to one of those ones or one in the current guide data we'd probably be alright.

We would only hit a problem if an old showing of a program whose TMSID we had reused got shown _and then thumbed_. But even if that happened all that would happen is that the thumb would in effect get added to the reallocated programme too. Given the randomness in the guide data for things like genres, which the suggestions algorithm uses, I'd doubt anyone would notice.

We might be able to make this even less likely by pooling TMSIDs tracked by various users and seeing if we can spot some pattern; parts of the number range which have never been thumbed by anyone participating, as these would likely be safer areas.


----------



## kitschcamp

TCM2007 said:


> We might be able to make this even less likely by pooling TMSIDs tracked by various users and seeing if we can spot some pattern; parts of the number range which have never been thumbed by anyone participating, as these would likely be safer areas.


I've a server with spare IP addresses that could be used to pool that data.


----------



## dvdfever

There's been a lot of unnecessary arguing and *****ing on this thread and I've followed it all. The fact is - every TiVo user has a right to say their piece, even if they've moved on, and TiVo themselves also have a right to withdraw some or all of the service, as per the T&C.

I've been using the service for just past 7 years now and I still love the machine. I haven't used suggestions since I changed my box to a networked one with a bigger hard drive so I can see how much space left is free and also to undelete programmes when - whoops! I didn't mean to delete that!

Also, whereas Sky+ only records from Sky, I love the fact that I can hook up my PS2 or Xbox 360 and record game footage from those which I put up on my DVDfeverGames Youtube channel - just plug the console in, play the game for however long while making notes of the bits to archive/edit together later on, and then to straight to those bits in turn.

I love that I can record radio shows with the RF2 hack that allows me to insert a '0' when Sky knackered the radio channel numbers, as I record quite a lot of radio shows (and since picture doesn't matter, and sound is unaffected, those can be 'basic' instead of anything higher).

I also occasionally watch a TiVo recording via my original Xbox in another room, but that's not an exact science.

One day, the TiVo UK service will cease - especially since the revenue is not increasing. One day, all the current UK boxes will give up the ghost. Then we'll have to do something else. If TiVo UK's got one major failing it's that their initial advertising campaign was bobbins beyond belief - they just showed it doing the basic pause things that Sky+ now champions (and Murdoch's got the money for it). TiVo *should* have gone to town on all the features and, for a while, allowed users to try a box for a month and if they didn't like it then to return it for a full refund - and as anyone will testify, once you've got used to TiVo for that length of time, it's as addictive as crack-cocaine (not that I've ever tried that, but just look at the pop stars who can't shake it off). The only downside for TiVo is that the boxes are no longer *new* but that's why they just do it for a while.

But they missed the boat, and Murdoch used his bottomless pit of money to get a foothold in the market and now we have ITV has-beens on TV telling us how they can't live with out it, and also the English language has been defined so that to use a PVR is to "Sky+" something, same as to vacuum is to "hoover". If anyone asks me if I've "Sky+"'d something, I say I've "TiVo'd" it.

But then Betamax was reportedly better than VHS (I never had the former) and the now cheap-as-chips HD-DVDs (using an Xbox 360 add-on) still look bloody amazing, but neither of the two things won out. Life stinks, sometimes.

About putting new software on the TiVo, I agree with the posts about how it's not possible without more testing/programming than they've got the money for. It's possible that if they code something and it doesn't work then it could SNAFU the box and then we'd really have problems.


----------



## digital_S

dvdfever said:


> If anyone asks me if I've "Sky+"'d something, I say I've "TiVo'd" it.


Exactly, I hate that Sky+ is all people know about... The only decent thing about it is the dual-tuners!

Obviously with no new TiVo boxes, the current ones (that we own) can only be sold on so still the same number of people will have the boxes (unless someone buys more than one or two.)
Anyway, my point is that it seems like TiVo is fading away and letting Sky+ win... TiVo is big in the US and it can be big in the UK again too!!

Bob, don't let all the TiVo guys presume... Everyone's posts here say it all!


----------



## dvdfever

digital_S said:


> Exactly, I hate that Sky+ is all people know about... The only decent thing about it is the dual-tuners!
> 
> Obviously with no new TiVo boxes, the current ones (that we own) can only be sold on so still the same number of people will have the boxes (unless someone buys more than one or two.)
> Anyway, my point is that it seems like TiVo is fading away and letting Sky+ win... TiVo is big in the US and it can be big in the UK again too!!
> 
> Bob, don't let all the TiVo guys presume... Everyone's posts here say it all!


Trouble is, while I'd love the latest TiVo unit with extra tuners, HD capability, etc, it couldn't be done without outlay and monthly subs from the consumer - which they don't have to do if they've already got a Sky+ and a subscription to that. With the credit crunch, etc, there's no money from the consumer nor from TiVo UK to take the chance.

The TiVo boat of resurrection has long since sailed, as much as I hate to admit that.


----------



## dvdfever

PS. Am I just unlucky or is everyone getting more than their fair share of 'missed numbers', eg. instead of 0104 for Radio 4, tonight it just did '014' which got nothing until I intervened.

However, I was out when Doctors was on today and that didn't complete either, so I got 30 mins of whatever channel it was on before.


----------



## 6022tivo

dvdfever said:


> PS. Am I just unlucky or is everyone getting more than their fair share of 'missed numbers', eg. instead of 0104 for Radio 4, tonight it just did '014' which got nothing until I intervened.
> 
> However, I was out when Doctors was on today and that didn't complete either, so I got 30 mins of whatever channel it was on before.


When ever I get that (Not often) I power cycle my sky box.. Normally does the trick??


----------



## Goooner1

digital_S said:


> Exactly, I hate that Sky+ is all people know about... The only decent thing about it is the dual-tuners!
> 
> Anyway, my point is that it seems like TiVo is fading away and letting Sky+ win... TiVo is big in the US and it can be big in the UK again too!!


Sky+ won years ago, the day TiVo let Sky have anything to do with them. Even though TiVo was out first Sky+ must have been well in the works.

When I went to buy my TiVo, I knew roughly what it did already, I'd never heard of Sky+. I went into Currys (yeah, schoolboy error in the first place, I know) to have a look at the TiVo. Ask for a demo, the sales guy just said "oh, I don't know anything about it (not unusual in Currys, obviously!), but come over here and look at this brilliant Sky+ over here!" He seemd most put out when I didn't want to look at the SKy box and insisited I was only interested in the TiVo, so he just gave me the remote and told me to have a play around with it.

If someone had no clue about PVRs, as lets face it loads of people don't now, let alone however many years ago that was, they'd have just been won over by the Sky+ while the better system was ignored.


----------



## mikerr

Goooner1 said:


> Sky+ won years ago, the day TiVo let Sky have anything to do with them. Even though TiVo was out first Sky+ must have been well in the works.


 going back 8 years....

Tivo and their deals.... they signed up the main pay TV supplier (sky) for support & marketing. 
In other countries this is a good strategy, but sky had other ideas to undermine tivo, as we all know.

Tivo also signed an exclusive distribution deal with currys for the first year - a poor choice which p***ed off alot of the trade. No other shop chains could obtain tivos...

They then cancelled that deal a month or two later when currys weren't selling many (a performance related deal?). By which time the trade wouldn't look at tivos, once bitten...

Fickle lot the AV trade.

(imagine the lost sales from a rental company that wanted to replace its VCRs with tivos at the time....
even later on, there was no volume discount for lifetime subs)


----------



## Pete77

TiVoPony said:


> Businesses try not to have wonkyness.


You mean like a business not using a series ID code that isn't sufficiently long to avoid eventually running out of combinations without extending the code? Or like another business not writing its code for its PVRs in such a way that it could not easily adapt to an extension of the Series ID code length from its data supplier? Or like that same business not releasing program code for Suggestions for the same apparent Series of Tivo that worked quite differently in two different countries so that it ended up with one lot of Series 1 machines that could still do Suggestions and another that couldn't.

Or you mean like a business not ending up with a customer product it had sold with a so called "Lifetime" sub that can no longer supply all the advertised features for the product's Lifetime?



> That's understandable. Unfortunately the shift to the 14 digit format for identifying new programs has prevented Suggestions from working in the UK.


So isn't that actually a huge form of wonkyness that your business should be working to correct since as you have previously highlighted *"Businesses try not to have any wonkyness"*

To be honest I don't think the above statement is actually true having worked at a fair few different types of businesses and if it were true that businesses don't like wonkyness then there wouldn't have been any DC10 crash at Chicago due to wonky engine servicing procedures or any Air Transat Boeing 767 that had to glide in to the Azores because the service staff decided to fit a replacement engine that was incompatible with the fuel hose from the first engine or any DC10 crash at Paris just because fixing the cargo door problem (known about by McDonnell Douglas before the plane entered commercial service) might have meant the plane would have been late reaching the marketplace.

In my experience businesses in fact don't like to do things that they know will cost them lots of money with no prospect of any profits being made as a result of those activities and they are often prepared to tolerate a large amount of wonkyness in order to achieve that usually overriding commercial goal.

Of course that does vary from business to business and depending whether they are a quality led business or not. A quality led business would put avoiding wonkyness first as much as it possibly could. The Tivo Inc we used to know always would have done but that was when you used to have a different board of directors and Mr Mike Ramsay was in charge (who I am sure would have authorised a fix for the Tivo S1 UK Suggestions problem).

As Tivo allegedly does not like wonkyness and a non wonky solution to this problem, that keeps the UK Tivo service running fully, is to update the software to cope with the extended TMSID series number format then that is surely what Tivo should have decided to do to keep its UK Series 1 service going on a non wonky basis?


----------



## jrg

TiVoPony said:


> So if you reclaim an old twelve digit ID to replace a new fourteen digit ID...you don't know what you're taking that ID away from.


Is it purely a number? The examples above, "EP010092215001" and "SH010078560000", suggests it's not (but I realise that the two letters at the start might be special).

If nothing expects that the numbers are indeed numbers, because there's only string comparisons going on, then a longer code could be re-encoded in another base. Even if certain parts have to be numbers, maybe the rest don't? Any positional characters that could be alphanumeric could be re-encoded with a larger symbol set, e.g. base-62 (0-9, A-Z, a-z) is quite a good choice, to fit it into 12 characters.

That'll give a larger number range to be going on with.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> You mean like a business not using a series ID code that isn't sufficiently long to avoid eventually running out of combinations without extending the code? Or like another business not writing its code for its PVRs in such a way that it could not easily adapt to an extension of the Series ID code length from its data supplier?


Hmm. So Tivo is a business that cannot tell what's going to happen in the future. Are there any that can?

Maybe they thought there might already be a new model by now? "Millenium bug" ring a bell, does it?

I can't tell the future either. Must be nice that you can, Pete 

Hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it 



Pete77 said:


> Or like that same business not releasing program code..


Hmm. Computer company not publicly releasing proprietory program code. Now there's a shock; not 



Pete77 said:


> Or you mean like a business not ending up with a customer product it had sold with a so called "Lifetime" sub that can no longer supply all the advertised features for the product's Lifetime?


Yeah 'cos they're completely useless door-stops now, aren't they?


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## ColinYounger

The TMSID format is, I understand, to be EP******####

Where EP indicates episode, ****** is a 6 digit Series ID and #### is a 4 digit episode ID.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> _moaning from Pete deleted_


Pete, you missed an important word in TiVoPony's statement, "try".

I'm sure they would rather have everything working perfectly, but it isn't, and I fully understand why re-using TMSIDs is not an acceptable solution for TiVo, although it could be for hackers.


----------



## JonMace

Could you not get a list of IDs for programes from the US that we will never get over here like US regional whether or news programs and use them?


----------



## TCM2007

jrg said:


> Is it purely a number? The examples above, "EP010092215001" and "SH010078560000", suggests it's not (but I realise that the two letters at the start might be special).
> 
> If nothing expects that the numbers are indeed numbers, because there's only string comparisons going on, then a longer code could be re-encoded in another base. Even if certain parts have to be numbers, maybe the rest don't? Any positional characters that could be alphanumeric could be re-encoded with a larger symbol set, e.g. base-62 (0-9, A-Z, a-z) is quite a good choice, to fit it into 12 characters.
> 
> That'll give a larger number range to be going on with.


TMSID is held in MFS as a string. However that's not to say that string is not split up and stored as a numeric elsewhere in the system. And Tribune's systems almost certainly store the main part as a numeric.

However if the TMSID is treated as a string throughout at our end, it might be a fairly simple patch at TiVo's end to translate a 14-character to a 12-character one with the first "numeric" character being achanged to an A. No chance of any re-use then.

Worth suggesting to the programmers TP?

If nothing else, it could provide ius a hacker orout to avoiud duplicate IDs.


----------



## AMc

Pete77 said:


> You mean like a business not using a series ID code that isn't sufficiently long to avoid eventually running out of combinations without extending the code? Or like another business not writing its code for its PVRs in such a way that it could not easily adapt to an extension of the Series ID code length from its data supplier?


It's called obsolescence and it's something that happens in computers.



http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bill_Gates said:


> I have to say that in 1981, making those decisions, I felt like I was providing enough freedom for 10 years. That is, a move from 64k to 640k felt like something that would last a great deal of time. Well, it didn't - it took about only 6 years before people started to see that as a real problem.
> 
> * 1989 speech on the history of the microcomputer industry. [1]


The comparison of losing your suggestions with fatal air crashes is in very poor taste.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191


----------



## Pete77

AMc said:


> The comparison of losing your suggestions with fatal air crashes is in very poor taste.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191


Only to those who suffer from an excessive sense of political correctness.

My point was that in practice businesses frequently suffer from making wonky decisions, even on stuff that really matters. With airlines allowing some wonkyness, in order to keep the show on the road, sadly sometimes results in people dieing, even though those who made the decisions obviously thought they would probably get away with it.

Fortunately on Tivos the same kind of wonkyness only results in some tv programs not being recorded. Nonetheless the fact that wonky decisions are made in business all the time is an undeniable fact. Its just that some wonky decisions have significantly more disastrous consequences than others.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Only to those who suffer from an excessive sense of political correctness.


Air crashes, Nazi Germany; can't help feeling some people after losing a bit of perspective.

Accusing people of being PC for disagreeing with your is pretty much the lowest level of debate there is.


----------



## Mostin

mikerr said:


> going back 8 years....
> 
> Tivo also signed an exclusive distribution deal with currys for the first year - a poor choice which p***ed off alot of the trade. No other shop chains could obtain tivos...
> 
> They then cancelled that deal a month or two later when currys weren't selling many (a performance related deal?). By which time the trade wouldn't look at tivos, once bitten...


I took my brother off to get a tivo after i fell in love with it and had to argue with the sales clerk about the benefits of sky. He then called over a supervisor who then called over the manager to talk me round!!!

I can only assume that they were on a nice commision from sky


----------



## steveroe

Does all of this mean that "older" programmes with 12 digit TMSID codes should still be eligible to be recorded as suggestions?


----------



## DeadKenny

TCM2007 said:


> It would probably work with a DragonCAM, so yes.


I'd prefer guaranteed legal. The DragonCAM route is treading on dodgy ground. Currently the CAM itself is legal (until Sky decide some patent or IP was leaked/stolen and they go after the makers). The use of a Sky card in it is dubious on the legal status. Just Sky haven't so far tested this in a court of law. Besides that Sky can change the encryption in the future and render it useless until someone figures (leaks) it out.

Anyway, the nero route and similar is hassle, and more so for Sky. I'd rather a box I can just plug in an go. My experience of PC building tends to be not great as I always end up with weird instabilities. I keep thinking of building a big HTPC (HD quality) and yeah I could add a PVR to it too, but I don't want to be spending 6 months just trying to get videos to play without crashing the damn PC! 

The benefit of a dedicated box is someone has done all the hard work of matching components and testing stability. Not to mention they usually draw less power and have quiet fans (or non at all).


----------



## TCM2007

You can buy pre-configured Media Centers, but yes, for most folks a single-box is better.


----------



## Ruski276

I live in the U.S. and have had my Sony series 1 since 2003. Like the rest of you, it has not recorded suggestions since the end of August. I thought maybe it was something I had done. Two weeks ago I restored from a back-up I made last January and ran guided set-up opting to clear ALL data. Still, no suggestions have appeared. 

I saw the suggs.tcl hack yesterday and tried running it. So far, nothing. Does anyone know if this hack is strictly for UK TiVos?


----------



## Illusion

Hi guys,

Over here from the US Thread dealing with this same issue. Just want you to know that you are not alone in this. On the US Thread, we have yet to come up with a single person who has an S1 unit that is successfully recording suggestions. 

Other than comments form TiVoPony, there has been no support for the US customers either. I have called TiVo support, twice, and been told both times that this is not a know issue, no one else is having this problem, I must have a setting wrong, I do not have shows rated, I need to call the manufacturer of the box, I need to reset my unit, blah blah blah.

Things are bad on both sides of the pond.


----------



## andonevris

Illusion said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Over here from the US Thread dealing with this same issue. Just want you to know that you are not alone in this. On the US Thread, we have yet to come up with a single person who has an S1 unit that is successfully recording suggestions.
> 
> Other than comments form TiVoPony, there has been no support for the US customers either. I have called TiVo support, twice, and been told both times that this is not a know issue, no one else is having this problem, I must have a setting wrong, I do not have shows rated, I need to call the manufacturer of the box, I need to reset my unit, blah blah blah.
> 
> Things are bad on both sides of the pond.


Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm glad to hear this. Tivo has far more to lose if US customers are up in arms, the risk of bad publicity in the States far outweighs any bad publicity we in the UK can generate. Most people in the UK have never heard of Tivo.

I know tivopony said our problems are not related, but I find it hard to believe that. We both lost suggestions at around the same time and like yourselves nobody in the UK has suggestions recording (unless you're running Mikerr's hack of course  )

If Tivo devote some manpower to solving the US problem maybe they'll come up with an innovative plan to fix the problem without a new software rollout, some sort of server side fix perhaps.


----------



## Pete77

andonevris said:


> I know tivopony said our problems are not related, but I find it hard to believe that. We both lost suggestions at around the same time and like yourselves nobody in the UK has suggestions recording (unless you're running Mikerr's hack of course  )


I think TivoPony (for which read Tivo Inc itself as Bob certainly seems to be a great guy but ultimately can only reflect the Tivo Inc corporate position in the responses he gives) is hoping the UK and US problems are not related as if they are related they will either have to work on developing a new version of the Tivo S1 software or think about offering US S1 box owners upgrades to an S3 model with a Lifetime Sub at a very attractive price. But as this S3 upgrade route can't happen for UK customers, as things currently stand, then fixing the software problem affecting Suggestions for both the US and UK boxes might make more sense.

Tivo bases its assertion that US S1 box Suggestions are not affected on the basis that some aspects of Suggestions there work differently and involve sharing of processed Suggestions data collected by their servers back to the individual S1 Tivo boxes based on the typical viewing habits of other Tivo owners who have also thumbsed up those kinds of programs. However what they don't seem to have allowed for is that some other aspect of a change in data format from TMS may instead have scuppered some other aspect of the Tivo S1 Suggestions software engine that is in fact common to both UK and US customers.

I would have thought that they are still running some US Tivo S1 boxes back at Tivo HQ and that some Tivo staff are running them at home so ultimately this ought to make it possible for Tivo to actually know for certain whether the US S1 boxes have also lost Suggestions recording capability. However as even the S2 and S3 boxes in the US seem to have other issues with losing Suggestions recording on some boxes in some circumstances the S1 specific problem for all S1 boxes on a permanent basis may have been lost in that background noise.



> If Tivo devote some manpower to solving the US problem maybe they'll come up with an innovative plan to fix the problem without a new software rollout, some sort of server side fix perhaps.


Well I for one certainly hope so.


----------



## cwaring

That's all well and good Pete but, as usual, it's all suppositions and guess-work which, ulitimately, serve no purpose whatsoever


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> That's all well and good Pete but, as usual, it's all suppositions and guess-work which, ulitimately, serve no purpose whatsoever


If that was true then most of our national newspapers and our political parties would not be in business.

So you really think that Tivo are going to give us a categoric admission that they also having a problem with Suggestions on their US Tivo S1 units but are hoping that they can get away without having to do anything to fix it do you.

Only by speculation does the truth then very often finally out itself.


----------



## andonevris

From what I've been reading in the US thread, they are having exactly the same problem as us, suggestions died in August and no S1 units can be fixed with the sugestions off - reboot - suggestions on trick.

Tivopony maintains the US problem is different based on the fact that TMSID's were changed last year in the US but our problem coincided exactly with the TMSID changes in the UK. However all the US S1 posters seem to have exactly the same problem as us at exactly the same time, how can this be a coincidence?

Tivopony also says that only a handful of US customers are affected but every single poster on the US thread with an S1 has no suggestions. I guess you could argue that if an S1 owner's tivo was working properly then there would be no need to visit the forums...

All I can say is the timing and the similarity of problems seems too identical to be a coincidence.

So yeah, suppositions and guess-work perhaps but I just can't accept these two situations are unrelated.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> However what they don't seem to have allowed for is that some other aspect of a change in data format from TMS may instead have scuppered some other aspect of the Tivo S1 Suggestions software engine that is in fact common to both UK and US customers.


TIVoPony's reply seemed pretty clear on that point. US S1s aren't getting 14-character TMSIDs, and their data hasn't changed formats for almost a year.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> TIVoPony's reply seemed pretty clear on that point. US S1s aren't getting 14-character TMSIDs, and their data hasn't changed formats for almost a year.


Then why do so many users of US S1 machines seem to also be having issues with Suggestions not working at all that commenced at the same time that our issue did?

Also you should note that the UK machines had been having issues with Suggestions not working properly and with many users only getting only random suggestions (not related to thumbs) or losing suggestions completely for a while for months before the shutters finally came down completely on Suggestions for UK S1 Tivo users in September. This seems to suggest that some more fundamental problem with the Tivo software supporting Suggestions as originally intended has been developing for quite some time.


----------



## TCM2007

You may be right that there are two separate issues, but it's pretty clear from what TiVoPony has said that the one which has killed of Suggestions in the UK does not apply to the US.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> You may be right that there are two separate issues, but it's pretty clear from what TiVoPony has said that the one which has killed of Suggestions in the UK does not apply to the US.


Except that nobody in the US Help Centre thread who has an S1 is reporting anything other than that Tivo does not any longer record any Suggestions other than where a program has been newly thumbed programs in the last 24 hours. The same symptoms that we have on our UK Tivos.

There has been a challenge for anyone with a US S1 Tivo who is still recording suggestions normally to report that fact in the thread and so far not one US S1 Tivo owner has done so...........................................


----------



## TCM2007

We've been given a very clear explanation of what caused our problem. That problem cannot have effected US TiVos. Therefore either a) the explanation we've been given is false b) another problem has hit the US TiVos.

I realise that Pete's Razor states that the explanation which implies the most conspiracies by big business must be true, but sometimes co-incidences do happen.


----------



## cwaring

PMSL  I like that. A new "law" has been established


----------



## Illusion

"Pete's Razor" - that is GREAT!


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> We've been given a very clear explanation of what caused our problem. That problem cannot have effected US TiVos. Therefore either a) the explanation we've been given is false b) another problem has hit the US TiVos.


Surely though you must familiar with the case of Tony and the Dodgy Dossier and so do not automatically believe everything you are told without question no matter how apparently impeccable the source.

As to conspiracy no it is not always justified but the loss of the www.tivo.co.uk domain, the apparent cessation or degeneration in to chaos of direct UK telephone customer support, the subscription transfer or initiation problems, the corrupted UK Season Passes and the loss of Suggestions in only a short space of time do seem to point to something rather more than just the hand of coincidence being at work here...............


----------



## mikerr

Pete77 said:


> the loss of the www.tivo.co.uk domain


...which was never an official domain, uk.tivo.com is what is mentioned on the box, in the manual and all official documentation. 


Pete77 said:


> the apparent cessation or degeneration in to chaos of direct UK telephone customer support


Maybe the 1-2 remaining tivo operators at sky went on holiday 



Pete77 said:


> the corrupted UK Season Passes and the loss of Suggestions in only a short space of time


Well both those are not coincidence, they are acually the same issue:
total number of unique programmes since 1999 went above 1 million, and the tivo guide data format only had space for 6 text digits (999,999).


----------



## RichardJH

> since 1999


careful Mike you may give Pete an angle on a new rant. Millenium bug ???????????????


----------



## Glen

on a side note, www.tivo.co.uk says its been reserved for future use. hmmm interesting.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> As to conspiracy no it is not always justified but the loss of the www.tivo.co.uk domain, the apparent cessation or degeneration in to chaos of direct UK telephone customer support, the subscription transfer or initiation problems, the corrupted UK Season Passes and the loss of Suggestions in only a short space of time do seem to point to something rather more than just the hand of coincidence being at work here...............


All those things are symptoms of TiVo's UK operation being in a minimum possible cost maintenance position. This has been the case since 2003, so should hardly come as any surprise.

Unless you're suggsting these things are a deliberate policy to try to make the UK users cancel their subs?


----------



## DeadKenny

Glen said:


> on a side note, www.tivo.co.uk says its been reserved for future use. hmmm interesting.


Domain was renewed recently for a year, but doesn't mean much.

The reserved message is actually after redirecting to digit.co.uk.

Whois reveals it's registered to a 'Philip Plant' as an individual, but the registrar is Heart Internet, a hosting & company. Could be it's lapsed and the registrar has hijacked it (though usually they slap adverts all over if they do that), or maybe Mr Plant (quality name ), is going to use it for something else. Must be nothing to do with TiVo Inc as you can' specify a .co.uk to be registered to an individual and withhold your address if it's for a commercial entity.


----------



## ag5002

Interesting.

'BT Music Awards' showed up in suggestions last Wednesday, and stayed there until being recorded on Saturday.

Wonder why that programme should be OK?


----------



## Pugwash

.co.uk domains are registered for two years at a time. 

Whoever Philip Plant is, he'll probably be asked to surrender the domain to the trademark owner and pay them money for any business he's taken away from Tivo UK, i.e. nothing.


----------



## johala_reewi

ColinYounger said:


> The TMSID format is, I understand, to be EP******####
> 
> Where EP indicates episode, ****** is a 6 digit Series ID and #### is a 4 digit episode ID.


I notice that the TMSID always begins EP which just happens to be 2 characters.
Maybe a way to turn the new 14 character IDs into 12 character ones is to drop the EP and just imply it?


----------



## TCM2007

EP is not the only code. SH designates a one-off show, MV a film, and there may be others.


----------



## healeydave

TCM2007 said:


> So they ran out of TMSIDs, and had to move from it being a 16-bit to a 32-bit integer (or something like that). I suggested that the way things started appearing under the wrong Season Passes might be linked to this - sounds like it was, and they started to re-use TMSID numbers, causing problems.
> 
> I wonder if a hack might be created to reassign new TMSIDs to incoming data in the range that our S1s can understand? Or to otherwise edit the guide data back into the old format. Of course I don't have an active TiVo any more so I can't try it!


Hi Stuart,

Since I know you only recently retired your last Tivo and you must be itching to fix this problem (where Tivo can't) 

I will send you a System if your up for the challenge.

Kind Regards
Dave.
http://www.tivoland.com


----------



## TiVoPony

Pete77 said:


> I would have thought that they are still running some US Tivo S1 boxes back at Tivo HQ and that some Tivo staff are running them at home so ultimately this ought to make it possible for Tivo to actually know for certain whether the US S1 boxes have also lost Suggestions recording capability.


We do. And they're recording Suggestions. I've been holding that information back to see if we'd get a Series1 owner in the US to jump into the forum thread and state the same. I tend to agree with the school of thought that it's highly unlikely a Series1 owner without any issues would visit the Help forum, find the 'Suggestions aren't working' thread, and post to the contrary.

In any case, you can see why I can say with certainty that the US and UK situations are different, and that the US situation isn't as absolute as in the UK. We have US Series1 boxes here which are recording Suggestions just fine.

Pony


----------



## dvdfever

Goooner1 said:


> Sky+ won years ago, the day TiVo let Sky have anything to do with them. Even though TiVo was out first Sky+ must have been well in the works.
> 
> When I went to buy my TiVo, I knew roughly what it did already, I'd never heard of Sky+. I went into Currys (yeah, schoolboy error in the first place, I know) to have a look at the TiVo. Ask for a demo, the sales guy just said "oh, I don't know anything about it (not unusual in Currys, obviously!), but come over here and look at this brilliant Sky+ over here!" He seemd most put out when I didn't want to look at the SKy box and insisited I was only interested in the TiVo, so he just gave me the remote and told me to have a play around with it.
> 
> If someone had no clue about PVRs, as lets face it loads of people don't now, let alone however many years ago that was, they'd have just been won over by the Sky+ while the better system was ignored.


I went to Currys to have my first look at a TiVo, since it was the only place that had one and this was prior to Sky+ appearing in stores. The staff were absolutely clueless* about it and just gave me the remote to have a play with it.

(*The staff at Currys are ALWAYS clueless, so it wasn't just relegated to the Trafford Centre branch in autumn 2001, but then Currys are a part of the Dixons Stores Group and every single one of there stores is about as useful as cancer and the entire top level of management should do us all a favour and jump into a mincing machine)


----------



## dvdfever

mikerr said:


> going back 8 years....
> 
> Tivo and their deals.... they signed up the main pay TV supplier (sky) for support & marketing.
> In other countries this is a good strategy, but sky had other ideas to undermine tivo, as we all know.


That explains a lot. I didn't know that at the time, other than Sky had a hand in there somewhere, but it explains the piss-poor marketing of the product.

Rupert Murdoch didn't get to be a multi-billionaire by being benevolent and helping the competition.


----------



## philmck

I've sent the following to TiVoPony, I'll let you know if I get a response:

The discontinuation of the "suggestions" feature in the UK is simply unacceptable. This was one of the advertised features for which I originally purchased the service, and I expect such features to keep working for the duration of my "lifetime" subscription.

I don't accept that "this situation...was out of TiVo's control". You are responsible for dealing with your "provider", not me, and it's clearly technically possible to solve this problem, since it's quite possible to upgrade the firmware in the unit. (As it happens, I'm a software engineer who works on compatibility issues and I'm quite happy to discuss technical details.)

I would guess you actually mean it's too expensive to solve the problem, which is understandable but still appears to be a violation of the "lifetime" agreement. My unit is an unaltered unit still in operation at the original address by the original purchaser of the lifetime subscription so it's reasonable to expect the purchased features to be supported, isn't it?


----------



## Trinitron

But what does 'lifetime' mean? 

It's accepted that if a unit fails mechanically then that's the end of its practical 'life' and the subscription ends (but there are circumstances when the sub can be transferred). So why can't the same principle apply to a software failure? The word used is 'lifetime', not 'indefinite'. 

I don't particularly want to defend TiVo here, but I think trying to invoke legal arguments is doomed to failure.


----------



## tivo525235

As the subscription covered software development it would seem to be unreasonable to suggest a software failure could allow them to terminate the agreement without some form of compensation for the breach of contract especially when the service continues in the USA.


----------



## Trinitron

Except, as has previously been pointed out, the agreement does allow TiVo to vary the agreement at any time without notice. You then have the right to cancel it.

I haven't got the UK agreement to hand but clause 6 of the current US agreement states:


> *6. Changes to Your TiVo Service. *TiVo may at its discretion and from time to time change, add, or remove features and functionality of the TiVo service or the TiVo DVR without notice.
> 
> If you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo service, you may cancel your use of the TiVo service as provided in Section 15 ("Termination of Service").
> 
> TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion. TiVo may at its discretion discontinue the provision of software updates to certain TiVo DVRs. This means that while other TiVo DVRs may receive continued software updates and functionality; TiVo is not required to provide such updates to your TiVo DVR.
> 
> Additionally, the level of service TiVo provides may not be the same on each TiVo DVR; a given TiVo DVR may support different features and functionality, and TiVo is under no obligation to provide all features and functionality to your TiVo DVR.


Like I said, (IMO) legal arguments are doomed to failure.


----------



## tivo525235

Just because it is in a contract does not make it legal.

In this case if someone has purchased a lifetime subscription then things are very different to a monthly subscription.


----------



## Trinitron

How is the lifetime sub so differnt? The cost of a lifetime sub equals 20 monthly subs. I would be very surprised if a court imposed penalties for breach of contract after that period when there is a clear opportunity for you to walk away from the agreement yourself.

But stranger things have happened. Why don't you try it?


----------



## TCM2007

Ultimately any legal argument would come down to damages based on your loss of the feature you had paid for. After 20 months, your financial loss would be zero by any means of calculating it. Your claim would therefore be for zero and void.


----------



## Pugwash

I don't see you getting anywhere with this. The best you can do is give your opinion of TiVo as a company and service provider and hope your comments influence your friends and family should they ever re-enter the UK market.

Rather than hold my breath, I'm busy finding alternative services to choose from. Once I settle on one I'll abandon ship.


----------



## DeadKenny

tivo525235 said:


> Just because it is in a contract does not make it legal.


If the contract isn't legal then any commitment on their part is null and void anyway and they have no requirement to deliver the service and you have no requirement to stay subscribed.

The "law" however provides (in the UK at least) some consumer protection on the basis of fit for purpose and durability of a product. These are statutory rights that a contract cannot override.

On the other hand it would almost certainly be argued that the product was certainly fit for purpose when sold and has long since past the point of acceptable durability.



> In this case if someone has purchased a lifetime subscription then things are very different to a monthly subscription.


Lifetime and monthly subs are the same contract, no difference, with the exception that a lifetime subscriber has nothing more to pay to get their service. Neither a lifetime or monthly subscriber has any more rights to the service than the other.

Frankly though I'm amazed anyone has really continued to pay a monthly sub for so long. Must have paid many times over the value of a lifetime. It's just like people who rented the same TV for a decade or more and end up paying thousands for a TV worth £100 or less!


----------



## digital_S

DeadKenny said:


> Lifetime and monthly subs are the same contract, no difference, with the exception that a lifetime subscriber has nothing more to pay to get their service. Neither a lifetime or monthly subscriber has any more rights to the service than the other.


Technically, I think monthly subscribers should have more options than lifetime subscribers... Mainly cause we keep on paying 



> Frankly though I'm amazed anyone has really continued to pay a monthly sub for so long. Must have paid many times over the value of a lifetime. It's just like people who rented the same TV for a decade or more and end up paying thousands for a TV worth £100 or less!


 I get your point!
Is it actually worth getting a lifetime sub, now? No-one knows what will happen in 20 months!


----------



## Trinitron

digital_S said:


> Is it actually worth getting a lifetime sub, now? No-one knows what will happen in 20 months!


And how many times has that comment been posted here in the last 5 years...? 

Morally, I think an acceptable solution would be for TiVo to allow monthly subscribers to switch to lifetime cover on payment of the outstanding balance (if any) + possibly a small admin fee. Of course, that would wipe out their revenue stream at a stroke, pushing the complete withdrawal from the UK market ever closer.

I once managed to do just that with Tracker, the car security people. I had a device installed on an annnual payment basis because I wasn't sure how long I would keep the car. After the first year I decided that paying for 'lifetime' cover would be ok (it was about 2.5 x the annual payment), and was gobsmacked when they deducted the amount I had already paid from the amount due!


----------



## TrainManG

Back to the thread, now.

Reconfigured a unit last night. Got up this morning and it had recorded a suggestion. 'England expects.'

Do they know what they're doing now?

Geoff.


----------



## tivo525235

Pugwash said:


> I don't see you getting anywhere with this. The best you can do is give your opinion of TiVo as a company and service provider and hope your comments influence your friends and family should they ever re-enter the UK market.
> 
> Rather than hold my breath, I'm busy finding alternative services to choose from. Once I settle on one I'll abandon ship.


I think the odds of them ever reentering the UK market with a hardware solution drop day by day. One month ago had you offered me a Series 3 Tivo I would have bitten your hand off, now I would think twice about it.

I feel that Vista Media Centre is looking like the best replacement for my needs. It just needs some sort of suggestions feature and I suppose that could be written by a third party.


----------



## Trinitron

One of TiVo's problems in relaunching in the UK may be the subscription model they have. Sky and other subscription based services (like Setanta) at least have a tangible 'product' in that they supply additional channels, either directly or in HD format.

We have seen Sky struggle with their Sky+ subscription to the extent that the basic service is available to their subscribers without an extra charge. All TiVo software appears to offer to the uninitiated is an advanced EPG service. Ok, it's the 'Gold Standard', as I've seen it described in the US, but will enough people want to pay £10 or whatever a month just for that. TiVo don't just need existing users to switch to an advanced service, they have to grow their subscriber base as well.

I guess we need a new entrant into the broadcasting market willing to partner with TiVo and licence their software. They have done this in the US by getting back on board with DirecTV, pity they couldn't get in with someone like Freesat over here.


----------



## mikerr

Best bet was at the time of the NTL/TW/Virgin merger, as tivo already has software to run on the tvdrive/v+ hardware -it's a Scientific Altanta 8300DVB
Plus all cable subscribers pay a monthly fee...

Is a tivo licence so expensive that so many manufacturers decide to roll their own instead?

Of course the Tivo PC software (Nero) is due for imminent release at $99 including a years subs ...


----------



## Trinitron

mikerr said:


> Is a tivo licence so expensive that so many manufacturers decide to roll their own instead?


I'm guessing it must be. Time Warner Cable use the same boxes and have opted for an in-house solution to replace the proprietary software they used to have. It has some 'TiVo-esque' features, but the interface is hard to navigate at times and leaves me despairing for my TiVo back home...


----------



## DeadKenny

Trinitron said:


> All TiVo software appears to offer to the uninitiated is an advanced EPG service.


I would say the "service" is just the listings data. That puts them in competition with the likes of Digiguide in the UK who are more well known in the UK anyway.


----------



## digital_S

Trinitron said:


> And how many times has that comment been posted here in the last 5 years...?


Quite a few, but we should know what our options are and where we stand, don't you think?


TrainManG said:


> Reconfigured a unit last night. Got up this morning and it had recorded a suggestion. 'England expects.'


Really? At least one person's box is doing something right.


----------



## cleudo

mikerr said:


> Is a tivo licence so expensive that so many manufacturers decide to roll their own instead?
> subs ...


Quote of the week - you nailed it...

If only the marketing side of TiVo lived up to their technology....

(and who remembers the absolutely [email protected] marketing campaign TiVo had when trying to sell into the UK market).


----------



## cleudo

I asked this before, but does anyone know if the Australian hacked listings service had suggestions running as well?


----------



## warrenrb

OK, just to throw this into the mix, I've had 3 suggestions record in the last few days. All are 'Roary the Racing Car' which has recorded on the 6th, 7th and today (the 9th).

With the explanation we've been given, you would think the data format has been changed and nothing would record, so what gives with this programme? I haven't done any 'thumbing' since the suggestions first broke. This programme already had 2 thumbs (my kids like it).

Is there any diagnostic info I could provide that would interest anyone here? I have access to tivoweb on my unit.

If this programme has an 'old style' 12 digit id, wouldn't others have too?


----------



## Andy Leitch

cleudo said:


> Quote of the week - you nailed it...
> 
> If only the marketing side of TiVo lived up to their technology....
> 
> (and who remembers the absolutely [email protected] marketing campaign TiVo had when trying to sell into the UK market).


TiVo marketing seems to be from the same mould as Commodore's in the late 80's & early 90's.

It was often said that if C= had the franchise for KFC, it would be marketed as 'Lukewarm, greasy dead bird.'

So I guess that's it then? If another problem arises Tivo can hide behind that clause in the contract, which gives them free-reign to asset-strip the UK S1 functionality but still charge full price for the subs. :down:

Tivo manangement, and I'm including you TiVoPony, you are an absolute disgrace!

:down::down:


----------



## philmck

DeadKenny said:


> I would say the "service" is just the listings data. That puts them in competition with the likes of Digiguide in the UK who are more well known in the UK anyway.


No, the TiVo T&Cs specifically state:


> The TiVo service consists of program guide information and the following features: (a) Season Pass-® recording automatically finds and records every episode of a series all season long; (b) WishList® search - finds and records programs that feature your favorite actor, director, team or even topic; (c) Smart Recording - automatically detects program line-up changes for your cable/satellite provider and adjusts recording times so you don't have to worry about the details; (d) *TiVo Suggestions* - TiVo can be programmed to suggest and auto-record programs that may match your interests; and (e) Parental Controls - lock channels or set ratings limits based on content. Each of these features is part of the "TiVo service." The "TiVo service" means these features and any additional features and functionality of the TiVo DVR that TiVo may, at its discretion and from time to time, offer.


However, they also specifically state


> TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion.


The latter looks unenforceable to me, since it's obviously unreasonable to withdraw the entire service having taken the money.

By the way, the reply I received was


> I'm sorry that you're disappointed with the situation, however the terms of service do allow TiVo to add or remove features at it's discretion. In this case we've had to remove the TiVo Suggestions feature from the Series1 UK boxes.


----------



## SPR

warrenrb said:


> OK, just to throw this into the mix, I've had 3 suggestions record in the last few days. All are 'Roary the Racing Car' which has recorded on the 6th, 7th and today (the 9th).


I thumbed something up earlier in the week. It appeared in the suggestions to record that day & remained there.

Daily updates have all succeeded but this thumbed program was recorded by TiVo as a suggestion this morning!

Don't profess to understanding the intricacies of the suggestions mechanism but I didn't expect this...

I thought suggestions were gone, not just broken a bit?


----------



## pj280167

Just out of interest my TiVo recorded Toonattik as a suggestion on Sat 4 but nothing since.


----------



## Pugwash

With 0.6 of suggs.tcl mine recorded 9 showing of BBC news!


----------



## DeadKenny

philmck said:


> The latter looks unenforceable to me, since it's obviously unreasonable to withdraw the entire service having taken the money.


Most contracts contain unenforceable terms, which generally makes the contract null & void anyway in which case both parties can just walk away.

However it's not a case of being unenforcable, as they have said and have every right to remove a service. There's nothing to enforce, they just pull the plug. You've agreed to the contract by signing up to the service also.

Really it's a case of whether such an action infringes on your basic consumer rights and somewhere in the contract there *should* (I haven't checked) be mention of it not infringing your statutory rights.

In the UK we have rights that allow us to expect a product to be durable, i.e. last for an amount of time in working condition, typical for that kind of product.

Sadly our TiVos are likely well beyond the limit. Usually you have a right to complain if the product stops working as designed within a couple of years (regardless of what the warranty says), but rarely beyond that for gadgets.

As for monthly subs, I don't know if UK rights cover service payments, but even if they do, the best you could get out of it is a refund of £10 for the last month and agreement to either cancel the subs from then on or agree to a reduced service. TiVo should make it clear though that continued payments don't cover subscriptions any more.

These days there's another way round it for companies anyway when it comes to services offered. Just declare them as Betas. The likes of Google for example do this a lot, which means you are on an experimental service with no guarantees which can be withdrawn at any time.


----------



## philmck

DeadKenny said:


> ...it's not a case of being unenforcable, as they have said and have every right to remove a service...


OK, "unenforcable" is the wrong word, but what I meant was there's a contradiction here. On the one hand, they have sold me a specified service for a specified time. The service clearly includes "suggestions" and I am clearly still within the defined time (original unmodified hardware still working and owned by the original purchaser). They are now withdrawing that service without any warning, compensation, workaround or replacement.

Imagine someone sold you "lifetime car cleaning", which included monthly cleaning (carefully defined) as long as you own the car. They do it for a year then suddenly stop appearing (or only come once a year, or only clean the windows or whatever). They point to a clause saying they can change the way they clean the car whenever they like. That's clearly not what I thought I was buying. It's the same here.


----------



## a_tivo_noob

ironically, i've just viewed the last ever suggestion my tivo recorded which was "The King of Queens"...

an episode that partially-centres around Tivo and it's "suggestions" system  (do a websearch for "My Tivo thinks i'm gay")


----------



## DeadKenny

philmck said:


> Imagine someone sold you "lifetime car cleaning", which included monthly cleaning (carefully defined) as long as you own the car. They do it for a year then suddenly stop appearing (or only come once a year, or only clean the windows or whatever). They point to a clause saying they can change the way they clean the car whenever they like. That's clearly not what I thought I was buying. It's the same here.


Again, it all comes down to the definition of "lifetime" when it comes to such contracts.

I would think that practically, in the TiVo case, lifetime applies to the accepted lifetime of the product, not for your entire life. It's well beyond the accepted lifetime of those original TiVos. If this was a year after purchase then it's another matter.

And besides the "get-out" clause is there in the contract and you accepted it. You could of course try for having been mis-sold the contract. You could enquire with trading standards.

Whilst I would prefer subscriptions to stay, I don't think we have a leg to stand on. Not at least without a very expensive lawyer.


----------



## steveroe

Maybe some of the $104Million settlement from Echostar could be put towards fixing this.


----------



## Andy Leitch

DeadKenny said:


> Again, it all comes down to the definition of "lifetime" when it comes to such contracts.
> 
> I would think that practically, in the TiVo case, lifetime applies to the accepted lifetime of the product, not for your entire life. It's well beyond the accepted lifetime of those original TiVos.


Tivo can't use that excuse as they are still selling lifetime subs, I bought a lifetime sub on 10th September.


----------



## warrenrb

I think the interesting distinction is between the 'product' and the 'service'. The hardware we all own is long in the tooth, and an argument could be made that it is unreasonable to expect that to remain supported indefinitely.

However, the subscription is technically (I believe) for the Tivo 'Service' - Listings, and the trimmings that come with it (including suggestions). In fact, I guess you have 3 areas here - Hardware, Software and Service.

Like many on here, I bought my Tivo with a lifetime sub at time of purchase (with my fingers crossed that I'd get 20 months of service), so I've 'had my money's worth' and am not feeling entirely disgruntled by the whole affair. I liked suggestions, and used them a lot, but I've wondered how long I've got left of my Tivo service for a while now, so it doesn't come as a massive shock.

However, if I was still paying months (especially after all this time), I'd be well pissed off. There should definitely be a reduction in sub for the lose of this feature, I think.

Which comes back to my point - I think we need to look at the subscription (both monthly or lifetime) clearly as for the SERVICE, and so the age and lifetime of the hardware isn't really relevant. The service, as a 'virtual' item has no reason to degrade over time.

So the question is, does the software, which fundamentally is the problem here (as it needs updated to work with the new data), belong to the hardware, or the service? If it's the service, then we surely are entitled to an update if we have valid subscriptions; if it's the hardware, it's definitely a 'greyer' area.

Ultimately, if nothing else, this proves that selling a 'lifetime' subscription to anything is a very risky enterprise which is bound to get complicated at some point. 

Trouble is, I could very easily see how this 'complication' could lead to Tivo US saying 'sod this for a game of soldiers' and finally withdrawing the UK service. To be honest, I'm surprised it's still going (and glad it is!). Unless they've got a Series 3 poised for release here of course...


----------



## philmck

DeadKenny said:


> Again, it all comes down to the definition of "lifetime" when it comes to such contracts.
> 
> I would think that practically, in the TiVo case, lifetime applies to the accepted lifetime of the product, not for your entire life. It's well beyond the accepted lifetime of those original TiVos...


Again, the "lifetime" is carefully defined in the T&Cs and I'm definitely within it:



> A "Product Lifetime Subscription" to the TiVo service covers the life of the TiVo DVR you buy  not the life of the subscriber. The Product Lifetime Subscription accompanies the TiVo DVR in case of ownership transfer. The subscription remains in effect if the TiVo DVR needs to be repaired or replaced due to a malfunction (see manufacturer or retailer warranty details) or even if you upgrade your TiVo DVR to increase storage capacity...


----------



## davisa

warrenrb said:


> Trouble is, I could very easily see how this 'complication' could lead to Tivo US saying 'sod this for a game of soldiers' and finally withdrawing the UK service.


To be honest though, from a monthly subscriber perspective this could well be a good thing. We could then source our EPG data elsewhere without having to pay the now poor value £10/month.

As an aside, I have just finished setting up my Topfield 5800 to get its guide data from the radio times website, with a fallback to the freeview data. The guide data looks excellent.


----------



## schoobyshouse

The Thumbs up, Thumbs down trade mark is/was Tivo key market differentiator. With the public drop is service to its key selling point of suggestions I would predict a lot of people will vote with their feet/wallet.
For many years I have sung the praises of my little Tivo box and how innovative and in front of the curve it was. There is still a question whether this is ethical, offering a reduced service to users who have been loyally supporting the Tivo boards lifestyle.
As another user has said, this puts the Tivo in the same bracket as many other PVRs, now we have freesat in the UK, and Humax are bringing out their HD PVR is this something we should focus on or even back.
It does feel a little sad that Tivo, that friendly organisation has basically turned their back on UK users.


----------



## warrenrb

davisa said:


> We could then source our EPG data elsewhere without having to pay the now poor value £10/month.


Unfortunately there are still people like my Mum and Dad who don't have broadband and whose Tivo would become a useless brick without guide data.

Even with broadband, it'll require a hacked Tivo, and therefore alienate a lot of remaining non-geek users.

I'd say my M&D will sadly just shift to a Freeview PVR when Tivo UK kicks the bucket. Tivo is so easy for them to use though, I can't imagine they'd be as comfortable with the type of systems I've read about.


----------



## philmck

TCM2007 said:


> Ultimately any legal argument would come down to damages based on your loss of the feature you had paid for. After 20 months, your financial loss would be zero by any means of calculating it. Your claim would therefore be for zero and void.


I'm not a lawyer and have no intention of engaging one to find out, but my understanding when I purchased the lifetime agreement was that it offered extended value past the 20 month break-even point. That's the whole point, isn't it?


----------



## cwaring

I think the point is that if you're past the 20-month 'break even' point on a LifeTime sub and your Tivo is now effectively costing you nothing, exactly how much compensation would you be due? (ie Assuming this theoretical compensation is a &#37;age of your on-going subs, then any %age of &#163;0 is &#163;0 )


----------



## TCM2007

Andy Leitch said:


> Tivo can't use that excuse as they are still selling lifetime subs, I bought a lifetime sub on 10th September.


You probably have a case for a refund then - from your credit card company if not TiVo. You'd have to fully cancel the subs though.


----------



## TCM2007

davisa said:


> To be honest though, from a monthly subscriber perspective this could well be a good thing. We could then source our EPG data elsewhere without having to pay the now poor value £10/month.
> 
> As an aside, I have just finished setting up my Topfield 5800 to get its guide data from the radio times website, with a fallback to the freeview data. The guide data looks excellent.


Does it include the metadata to identify programmes which are in the same series (not just ones which share a name), original air date data and consistent genre data? If not it won't drive TiVo's recordings and Suggestions teh way you're used to.


----------



## TCM2007

philmck said:


> I'm not a lawyer and have no intention of engaging one to find out, but my understanding when I purchased the lifetime agreement was that it offered extended value past the 20 month break-even point. That's the whole point, isn't it?


But if a contract is breached, it becomes a claim for damages. If you have not suffered a financial loss by taking out a lifetime cf subscribing monthly, then there has been no loss, so no damages, so no claim.


----------



## Trinitron

I agree. This principle was tested by the ITV Digital collapse. I had bought a prepaid package by credit card about 2 months before it happened. My credit card company refunded my payment but only for the service I had paid for and not received.


----------



## DX30

TCM2007 said:


> Does it include the metadata to identify programmes which are in the same series (not just ones which share a name), original air date data and consistent genre data?


The Radio Times website does provide some metadata, but it is pretty much the same as you would see in the printed Radio Times. While it often includes things like episode numbers it isn't entirely consistent in this. For Series you are better off with the Freeview SeriesLink metadata. The RT Genre data is reasonably good, much better than the Freeview EPG (although not as detailed as the TiVo).


----------



## DeadKenny

warrenrb said:


> Even with broadband, it'll require a hacked Tivo, and therefore alienate a lot of remaining non-geek users.


Not that I should claim to be a geek, but... .

However, though I've dabbled a lot in hacking about kit, building PCs, messing about with the dark side of linux even, I just never bothered messing about with the TiVo. I still could, but I see little point now especially when I want an HD PVR and my TiVo isn't it.


----------



## Ianh100

I called Customer service and they admitted to the problem and said that it was being worked on, no time scales but suggested a couple of weeks and suggestions would be working again. Are they telling me the truth or just lying to get me off the phone.


----------



## cwaring

Probably not lying more than they don't actually know


----------



## a_tivo_noob

Tivo delivers messages (we all get them all the time about channel changes) ---> so why haven't we all been sent a message about the status of suggestions...

I know we've all been told the situation on here but how many people are set at home wondering what's wrong with their Tivo? (and phoning support to get messages like the above)...


----------



## cwaring

An interesting point, actually. I don't think this system has _ever_ been used for anything other than the automated ones we get when channel line-up changes occur.


----------



## Goooner1

a_tivo_noob said:


> I know we've all been told the situation on here but how many people are set at home wondering what's wrong with their Tivo? (and phoning support to get messages like the above)...


And keep paying their tenner a month, assuming it'll be fixed soon as that's what they've been told by Customer Services


----------



## kitschcamp

cwaring said:


> An interesting point, actually. I don't think this system has _ever_ been used for anything other than the automated ones we get when channel line-up changes occur.


Yes, as has been stated before. When they were after people to fill in a survey and get a TiVo plushy.


----------



## cwaring

Okay. Well, before I got one then


----------



## CeeBeeUK

philmck said:


> No, the TiVo T&Cs specifically state:
> However, they also specifically state
> The latter looks unenforceable to me, since it's obviously unreasonable to withdraw the entire service having taken the money.
> 
> By the way, the reply I received was
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry that you're disappointed with the situation, however the terms of service do allow TiVo to add or remove features at it's discretion. In this case we've had to remove the TiVo Suggestions feature from the Series1 UK boxes.
Click to expand...

This is what I find the most worrying... why haven't I been told that they have withdrawn my service? Where is my letter, my

I lurk on here occasionally, but having recommended Tivo to my sister, I now feel awful that she has just purchased something from ebay that will not function as she expects having heard me evangelise about it for so many years!


----------



## Ashley

According to the TiVo manual at http://www.uk.tivo.com a UK TiVo has suggestions. There is no update on that site, that I can find.

So someone looking there before buying one will be rather annoyed when they get one.


----------



## cwaring

CeeBeeUK said:


> This is what I find the most worrying... why haven't I been told that they have withdrawn my service? ...


You mean _a part_ of your service, of course


----------



## DeadKenny

Ashley said:


> According to the TiVo manual at http://www.uk.tivo.com a UK TiVo has suggestions. There is no update on that site, that I can find.
> 
> So someone looking there before buying one will be rather annoyed when they get one.


Given TiVo isn't for sale any more in the UK it's rather irrelevant. Yes, I know you can buy them second hand, but you wouldn't be able to get trading standards involved with TiVo on the basis of something for sale second hand. If the ebayer or whoever claimed it supports subscriptions, that's another matter, but that's between you and the seller, not TiVo.

It's like buying a 10 year old second hand car that the manufacturer advertises as having a 5 year rust guarantee. You can't expect that guarantee to still be in place, and likewise you can expect any terms from the manufacturer to be valid unless you buy it new from the manufacturer or approved retailers.

Even then, in the UK, despite what retailers try and claim, it is the retailer who is primarily responsible (and up to them to refer to the manufacturer). So in my case I should first go back to Dixons who supplied my TiVo and complain about the subscriptions


----------



## martink0646

DeadKenny said:


> Given TiVo isn't for sale any more in the UK it's rather irrelevant. Yes, I know you can buy them second hand, but you wouldn't be able to get trading standards involved with TiVo on the basis of something for sale second hand. If the ebayer or whoever claimed it supports subscriptions, that's another matter, but that's between you and the seller, not TiVo.
> 
> It's like buying a 10 year old second hand car that the manufacturer advertises as having a 5 year rust guarantee. You can't expect that guarantee to still be in place, and likewise you can expect any terms from the manufacturer to be valid unless you buy it new from the manufacturer or approved retailers.
> 
> Even then, in the UK, despite what retailers try and claim, it is the retailer who is primarily responsible (and up to them to refer to the manufacturer). So in my case I should first go back to Dixons who supplied my TiVo and complain about the subscriptions


I think the point is that whilst you can't buy the hardware new, you most certainly can still buy a lifetime subscription or subscribe on a monthly basis. Are CS telling people that the service is diminished?

Martin


----------



## CeeBeeUK

cwaring said:


> You mean _a part_ of your service, of course


Indeed I do, but the point still stands. Why, if the removal of suggestions in the UK is indeed permanent, are Tivo not informing customers?

TivoPony posting on a Tivo forum is not really good enough. The thread isn't even stickied or marked as an announcement.

I noticed that suggestions had failed (again) a fortnight ago. I assumed it would be fixed shortly as it has before, hence waiting almost a month before checking here.

Do you actually think that is a good way to do business? Remove one of the Unique Selling points of your product from a geographic region, and not tell your customers! Nah, let them hunt Google!


----------



## RichardJH

> Remove one of the Unique Selling points of your product


One point to remember is that they are no longer selling the product


----------



## CeeBeeUK

RichardJH said:


> One point to remember is that they are no longer selling the product


Noted. But it is still on sale in other countries and suggestions is one of Tivos USPs, isn't it?

If they told every user in the States that they were removing suggestions, would they be happy? Probably not.

But, while pointing that out you ignored my question.

Do you actually think that removing a feature and not telling your customers you have done so is a good way to do business? I'd be interested to know


----------



## kitschcamp

RichardJH said:


> One point to remember is that they are no longer selling the product


TiVo sell a service, not a product. The service is still available. Today.


----------



## RichardJH

> Do you actually think that removing a feature and not telling your customers you have done so is a good way to do business? I'd be interested to know


NO

It certainly could have been handled better. As it happens none of the 3 Tivos that I use/manage have suggestions switched on so consequently I am unaffected by this BUT I just hope that we do not lose any more features



> TiVo sell a service, not a product. The service is still available. Today.


Point taken


----------



## Goooner1

As has been mentioned, only part of the service has ceased and yet they are still charging the full amount for a less than full service.

As to the car being sold with a 5 year rust proofing guarantee, if I'd bought a car with that and was paying a monthly premium indefinitely for that guarantee, I would expect to be paying it after 5 years when the service was no longer being provided.

Sadly, I have now cancelled my direct debit, so once the service is terminated, I'll be disconnecting it and relying on Sky HD and Digiguide.

I still think that TiVo has been the best gadget I've ever owned and I've had some fantastic service from it. Had I been on a lifetime sub, I'd have continued to use it, but I'm no longer prepared to pay full price for only a partial service.


----------



## DeadKenny

kitschcamp said:


> TiVo sell a service, not a product. The service is still available. Today.


I'd take every day as it comes and not expect the service to be available tomorrow when it comes to TiVo 

Sucks yes. Monthly subscribers can get their current month's sub back. Lifetime subscribers can take it to court if they like but it will cost a lot and really they have it stitched up in the T&Cs you agreed to.

Frankly, it's over (or nearly, give it a year tops). Move on and buy something else I'm afraid.

Lasted a hell of a lot longer than most consumer electronics these days though.


----------



## cwaring

DeadKenny said:


> Frankly, it's over (or nearly, give it a year tops). Move on and buy something else I'm afraid.


We've hear that a few times before now too


----------



## TCM2007

Goooner1 said:


> As has been mentioned, only part of the service has ceased and yet they are still charging the full amount for a less than full service.


They've removed this part of the service, but in the past they've ADDED things to the service, and didn't put the price up. Anyone subscribing before the summer of 2002 is still net up on what they originally subscribed to.

I do agree that TiVo should communicate this change to their customers.


----------



## warrenrb

What did they add?


----------



## hazydaze

Padding. Tivo was useless for bbc before then--'twas a happy day.

More controversially they also added TCP's (Tivo Central Promotions). It was bitter!

TBH I'm unaware of a freeview recorder that functions with seasonm passes as well as tivo--and for that I am happy to keep it.

How does Media Centre fare--if Tivo ever died would this make a total telly replacement solution??


----------



## martink0646

I think they added the Wishlist functionality at that point too.

Martin


----------



## steveroe

Possibly also Season Pass Manager?


----------



## mikerr

New additions in 2002:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=366953#post366953

I'd forgotten how much was added there - quite a lot of the core features we now view as essential:
Wishlists, keep at most, SP manager, skip to tick...


----------



## cwaring

Well here's what was new in v2.5.5. That's the upgrade y'all are referring to, yes?

@mikerr: SNAP!


----------



## AENG

Trawling to the bottom of "Now Playing" (I don't go there very often ) I've discovered that my Freesat TiVo is still making its own recordings, even in the absence of "Suggestions", most recently:

"Wondrous Oblivion" 5/10 3:30 a.m. 104 (C4)
Ten Minute Rule Bill: Bats & Newts (Yes, really ) 6/10 10:50 a.m. 201 (BB)
"The Jungle Book" 18/10 1:05 p.m. 125 (More4P1)
"Racing's Great Escapes" 21/10 11:55 a.m. 450 (MM)

I don't understand the logic of this.


----------



## DanielB

AENG said:


> Trawling to the bottom of "Now Playing" (I don't go there very often ) I've discovered that my Freesat TiVo is still making its own recordings, even in the absence of "Suggestions", most recently:
> 
> "Wondrous Oblivion" 5/10 3:30 a.m. 104 (C4)
> Ten Minute Rule Bill: Bats & Newts (Yes, really ) 6/10 10:50 a.m. 201 (BB)
> "The Jungle Book" 18/10 1:05 p.m. 125 (More4P1)
> "Racing's Great Escapes" 21/10 11:55 a.m. 450 (MM)
> 
> I don't understand the logic of this.


Mine too.... in a totally random way it is now recording a suggestion, I have not yet installed slugs (I do plan too when I get a spare moment) but yes there is some suggestion activity and I am confussed have I missed something?

Is this a suggestion overflow side effect?

Any ideas greatly appriciated.


----------



## Tim L

DanielB said:


> I have not yet installed slugs


Won't that be a bit messy? They'll leave trails all over your Now Playing list!


----------



## Ashley

Tim L said:


> Won't that be a bit messy? They'll leave trails all over your Now Playing list!


But if you installed Suggs that would be Madness


----------



## ColinYounger

I wish we had thumbs up for posts here - I'd give Ashley's reply one straight away. Tim came close....


----------



## Ashley

We do have thumbs! :up::up::up::up::up:


----------



## OzSat

:down::up::down::up::down::up:


----------



## CarlWalters

Ashley said:


> But if you installed Suggs that would be Madness


Oh I wish I'd thought of that


----------



## DogmaLoki

Long thread. Came here because my suggestions weren't working, disappointing to see the results.

I'm split. I think that it's now just not working and Tivo hoped we didn't notice stinks. I saw no notification on my system that the feature was being withdrawn. 

But I also understand that Tivo really isn't in the UK market. The fact they've supported S1 Tivos for so long I think is admirable, most companies wouldn't. I can't imagine they're making any money on it, and they've not upped the subscription fee in all the time that I've had it.

Sadly all the people jumping ship only adds weight for Tivo to withdraw the service. And surely there has to be a day where the diminishing returns mean the death of Tivo in the UK.

What I'd like is some sort of finality I think. Axe Tivo, and let me move on. Not to Sky+, that was programmed by chimps. But I'll work something out. Maybe if the service was axed there'd be a free-for-all in community development to get Tivo back alive without the control if Tivo Inc.

Or Tivo could open source it or something I'm sure, if it's so old they can't update it I don't see why they can't let the community get involved in some way.

I know these thoughts have probably been brought up 1000 times before, but I just wanted to chip in.

Incidentally I have often thought about if Tivo could make a return to the UK, and against Sky+ it'd be suicidal. What they should market is straight-swa Sky+ replacements. Market it as "Sky+ but better". I think the market is ready for it now. Particlarly with the buginess and lack of features on Sky+. And Tivo knows the difference between a hyphen and a dash in the EPG.


----------



## gazter

DogmaLoki said:


> Long thread. Came here because my suggestions weren't working, disappointing to see the results.
> 
> I'm split. I think that it's now just not working and Tivo hoped we didn't notice stinks. I saw no notification on my system that the feature was being withdrawn.
> 
> But I also understand that Tivo really isn't in the UK market. The fact they've supported S1 Tivos for so long I think is admirable, most companies wouldn't. I can't imagine they're making any money on it, and they've not upped the subscription fee in all the time that I've had it.
> 
> Sadly all the people jumping ship only adds weight for Tivo to withdraw the service. And surely there has to be a day where the diminishing returns mean the death of Tivo in the UK.
> 
> What I'd like is some sort of finality I think. Axe Tivo, and let me move on. Not to Sky+, that was programmed by chimps. But I'll work something out. Maybe if the service was axed there'd be a free-for-all in community development to get Tivo back alive without the control if Tivo Inc.
> 
> Or Tivo could open source it or something I'm sure, if it's so old they can't update it I don't see why they can't let the community get involved in some way.
> 
> I know these thoughts have probably been brought up 1000 times before, but I just wanted to chip in.
> 
> Incidentally I have often thought about if Tivo could make a return to the UK, and against Sky+ it'd be suicidal. What they should market is straight-swa Sky+ replacements. Market it as "Sky+ but better". I think the market is ready for it now. Particlarly with the buginess and lack of features on Sky+. And Tivo knows the difference between a hyphen and a dash in the EPG.


It is not feasible to compete against sky+ in the sky market now, they have total dominance, they give their sky+ boxes away free to recoup on subscription and their skyhd boxes can be had for under £100, or even free.

In such a scenario, tivo could only ever be a niche luxery product, ie Bose radio.

We all know that tivo is miles ahead of sky+ but the differences are very hard to explain, and justify.
Product A records tv, and is free
Product B records tv better and has a better interface, is £300 and £10 a month subscription.

uhm

Face it, Tivo is dead as a platform that can work with sky, and has probably missed the boat with a freeview platform, considering the market being flooded with hard drive based recorders.

I know its not fair, i know we are eventually going to lose tivo, but thats the way it is.


----------



## DogmaLoki

gazter said:


> In such a scenario, tivo could only ever be a niche luxery product, ie Bose radio.
> 
> We all know that tivo is miles ahead of sky+ but the differences are very hard to explain, and justify.
> Product A records tv, and is free
> Product B records tv better and has a better interface, is £300 and £10 a month subscription.


Being like Bose wouldn't be a bad thing! There is some stuff Tivo could do that Sky doesn't... for example transferring recorded files to a iPod and such.

But when I said the market was ready for it, actually I wasn't clear. I meant in a "they understand what a PVR is". But I don't think realistically Tivo would have a chance here. I was just thinking out loud as if they did come back, how could they do it?

But I am with you, I think Tivo will never return here, and just realistically Series 1 can't go on for ever. I think if people start cancelling now, we could be closer to the end than we think.


----------



## davisa

There is (and has always been) a huge market from those of us who cannot or choose not to have Sky.


----------



## worm

The Sky+ box may be free (or certainly very cheap) but the service itself is pretty damned expensive.


----------



## JudyB

worm said:


> The Sky+ box may be free (or certainly very cheap) but the service itself is pretty damned expensive.


Clearly the Tivo software is better than Sky's, but by what measure is Sky+ "very expensive"?

If you subscribe to any Sky services the Sky+ service is free. If you do not subscribe to Sky then it costs £10 per month - exactly the same as a monthly Tivo subscription.


----------



## worm

I must admit I didn't realise that you could get Sky+ independently of the Sky subscription - so I was counting both costs in that.

Do many people do that? Are there limits on the Sky+ service if you are not a Sky subscriber?


----------



## JudyB

worm said:


> I must admit I didn't realise that you could get Sky+ independently of the Sky subscription - so I was counting both costs in that.
> 
> Do many people do that? Are there limits on the Sky+ service if you are not a Sky subscriber?


I don't know how many people have just the Sky+ sub.
The only limits on the service if you are not a Sky subscriber is the limited number of channels. What I don't know is whether or not the Sky+ sub gives you a viewing card for the Free To View services or if you have to get that separately.

If you don't have the Sky+ sub then the box will not record anything - it won't even allow manual recordings like an unsubbed Tivo.


----------



## davisa

Watched "Futurama - Bender's Game" last night and there was an amusing joke about TiVo suggestions! I wonder if it will have to be cut in the UK edition


----------



## DeadKenny

davisa said:


> Watched "Futurama - Bender's Game" last night and there was an amusing joke about TiVo suggestions! I wonder if it will have to be cut in the UK edition


Always makes me chuckle when Sky show that Simpsons episode that has a TiVo gag .


----------



## nickf

The Girffins also buy a TiVo in Family Guy - in "Banjo was his name-o". Stewie sees his future self on it.


----------



## digital_S

davisa said:


> Watched "Futurama - Bender's Game"... I wonder if it will have to be cut in the UK edition


Probs not, unless the DVD is the same.


----------



## einstein

TiVoPony said:


> Hi all,
> 
> As I'd mentioned here, we've been investigating why TiVo Suggestions have stopped recording for our Series1 UK customers.
> 
> We now believe this to be due to recent changes in the program data supplied by our provider. While these data changes are necessary and allow the continued recording of your favorite shows, they are incompatible with the TiVo Suggestions feature. As such, TiVo Suggestions will no longer be available as a part of the TiVo Service for Series1 subscribers in the United Kingdom.
> 
> We appreciate all of the support that you've demonstrated over the years for TiVo, and are disappointed that an alternative could not be found. The version 2.5 software is simply incompatible with the new data format we've had to adopt (the new format was necessary as the old format had run out of headspace...there was no room to assign id's to new programs). These identifiers are largely abstracted by the service to prevent this sort of dependency, unfortunately TiVo Suggestions in that early software depends on the actual raw data format (which has now changed).
> 
> Thanks again for your patience as we've worked through identifying the root cause of this issue. Although this situation is regrettable, it was out of TiVo's control. Fortunately, all other core TiVo features are unaffected by these changes.
> 
> Bob Pony


very, very disappointed to hear this, it's time then for me to cancel my monthly subscriptions that I've been paying for my two TiVos since UK Launch. The other two TiVo's I have are lifetime boxes.

I'm very disappointed, because having learnt how to exploit a backdoor in TiVO which as far as I am aware, has never been publicly been announced to allow free-home-calls, I've always resisted the temptation to do this, so that my subscriptions would contribute to the further development of the UK TiVO service.

I will also be encouraging my other 20 friends that also have UK TiVos, to stop their monthly subscriptions as well. Because I used the Suggestion options alot.

e


----------



## cwaring

You do realise that, other than suggestion, your Tivo will actually still work, right? ie your SP will still record, etc. Just wondered as that seems like rather a big over-reaction to losing just one small part of the service


----------



## mikerr

einstein said:


> having learnt how to exploit a backdoor in TiVO [...]to allow free-home-calls
> I've always resisted the temptation to do this


Are you saying the loss of suggestions will somehow justify you stealing service?  

If suggestions are important to you, then read my sig


----------



## Goooner1

cwaring said:


> You do realise that, other than suggestion, your Tivo will actually still work, right? ie your SP will still record, etc. Just wondered as that seems like rather a big over-reaction to losing just one small part of the service


My sub is now cancelled, suggestions were very useful to me but I'm now using Sky HD and Digiguide and saving myself £110 a year, without too much loss of functionality and beter picture/sound quality.

Once I've wathced the remaining stuff on my TiVo, it'll be removed from it's place under the TV and what a sad day that will be

Still think (when it was fully functional) it was the best gadget I've ever owned.

If it was on a lifetime sub, I'd have kept it, if only for the EPG.


----------



## einstein

cwaring said:


> You do realise that, other than suggestion, your Tivo will actually still work, right? ie your SP will still record, etc. Just wondered as that seems like rather a big over-reaction to losing just one small part of the service


Yes, I know this is just one part of the service. I use TiVo Suggestions in my household alot, when a SP has not been created and TiVo Suggestions kicks in and "traps" that forgotten program, that I've forgotten to record or enable a SP for. This has what has convinced me to keep my TiVos (four in total, two with lifetime, and two with monthly subs).

With Season Linking/SP or whatever you want to call them, common place to Toppys or new Freeview players, with Suggestions gone, I don't think theres any need to keep my subscriptions going anymore.


----------



## einstein

mikerr said:


> Are you saying the loss of suggestions will somehow justify you stealing service?
> 
> If suggestions are important to you, then read my sig


who said, anything about stealing service. As I said in my post, I'd hoped that my contribution to the development fund would have prevented this with regular updates, because if people had "stolen service", I'm sure UK TiVos would have had the plug pulled long ago, if everyone had free service! This would not benefit me or anyone else that owns a TiVo, so for the last eight years never told a sole, and it will go to my grave! Many people have asked me! But I've always persuaed them to purchase the sub.

I've contributed approx £2,300 pounds to UK TiVo over the last eight years, in the early days, people were frightened to purchase lifetime agreements, because they thought the service might not last two years!

and my friends have contributed approx £10,000 in subs!

Just to be told sorry, tough s**t, by Mr US TiVo. I personally feel, let down by TiVo, same sort of big corp attitude, when all those years I was promoting TiVo, because Dixons, didn't had a f**king clue what it was!

Sorry to rant on, but thats how I feel!

PS I know you made a mod/hack, but difficult to do with non-modded TiVos, TiVoWeb, network etc, without additional costs.


----------



## PhilG

einstein said:


> With Season Linking/SP or whatever you want to call them, common place to Toppys or new Freeview players, with Suggestions gone, I don't think theres any need to keep my subscriptions going anymore.


Am I the only person who uses wishlists to "trap" programs I might otherwise miss?

I'm not sure I've seen Wishlist-type functionality on ANY PVR apart from Tivo (the ability to search for titles, title keywords, actors, directors, keywords etc. etc. etc.)

THIS would probably be my Tivo-killer if it ever stopped working

Suggestions? - Never used 'em

Phil G


----------



## cwaring

PhilG said:


> I'm not sure I've seen Wishlist-type functionality on ANY PVR apart from Tivo (the ability to search for titles, title keywords, actors, directors, keywords etc. etc. etc.)
> 
> THIS would probably be my Tivo-killer if it ever stopped working
> 
> Suggestions? - Never used 'em
> 
> Phil G


Me neither, and I completely agree about Suggestions. Far more useful


----------



## davisa

PhilG said:


> I'm not sure I've seen Wishlist-type functionality on ANY PVR apart from Tivo (the ability to search for titles, title keywords, actors, directors, keywords etc. etc. etc.)


Topfield 5800 PVR offers this functionality*. Also, the guide* is far better than TiVo's has become in recent years (more accurate, more complete, reviews, more accurate genres).

*1 'wishlist' functionality offered by many 'TAPs'. Can be superior to TiVo as it can be limited by many factors, such as day of week, specific channel or channel sub list. Can also move recordings to sub-folders automatically etc.

*2 Software add-one to enhance the basic functionality. Guide info collected from Radio Times data stream not freeview data for 14 days of info and full radio times listings info.


----------



## laurence

einstein said:


> I will also be encouraging my other 20 friends that also have UK TiVos, to stop their monthly subscriptions as well. Because I used the Suggestion options alot.
> 
> e


You must have lots of friends! Either that or you're a very, very good salesman. My friends have been impressed with my tivo, but none of them went out and bought one. If tivo return to the UK, they'd do well to employ you!


----------



## blindlemon

PhilG said:


> Am I the only person who uses wishlists to "trap" programs I might otherwise miss?
> 
> I'm not sure I've seen Wishlist-type functionality on ANY PVR apart from Tivo (the ability to search for titles, title keywords, actors, directors, keywords etc. etc. etc.)
> 
> THIS would probably be my Tivo-killer if it ever stopped working
> 
> Suggestions? - Never used 'em
> 
> Phil G


Absolutely - wishlists, and "advanced" wishlists which can be enabled via backdoors, are way more useful than suggestions. I never used suggestions so I don't miss them a bit.

My wishlists and advanced wishlits 'trap' everything I might have an interest in watching and they do it in priority order as defined by the SPM too, unlike suggestions which are always at the lowest priority and for which there is no way to differentiate or prioritise which of two clashing suggestions should be recorded.

IMHO suggestions was a nice idea that might have been helpful to some people who couldn't be bothered to setup their SPs and wishlists properly, but their usefulness was vastly overrated and their demise really doesn't diminish the value of the TiVo service as it remains.


----------



## DeadKenny

As I've said before, just because some here don't use or value suggestions doesn't mean others don't either. Clearly einstein values them far more.

If suggestions were the selling point for someone, then they are rightly going to feel they've lost the service they wanted.

Personally I found suggestions very useful. Maybe it was because I never upgraded my TiVo, so I didn't just wishlist everything I may casually be interested in because I don't have the space. With suggestions, when there is some free space it would record something interesting, but still gave priority to things I specifically wanted to record.

With suggestions I always had something to watch without much effort. Without I have to put in a lot more work to check the schedules to see if there's something interesting on other than the normal stuff I record.


----------



## worm

My TiVo rather randomly decided to record a suggestion - _Neil Young : Don't Be Denied_ on BBC4 on Saturday - but nothing else before or since.

Is it just teasing me?


----------



## CarlWalters

Just showing rather good taste I'd say  

Mr Young is someone who is still worth listening to. There have been several programmes about him on BBC4 in the last week or two covering everything from Buffalo Springfield to Living With War. The old warhorse is still relevant.


----------



## nickf

My TiVo has also scheduled a suggestion, on Thursday (Traffic Cops, for my sins...).
I am running suggs, but this is different - it appears on the TiVo Suggestions page on the on-screen UI, and also on the /ui/pending page on TiVoWeb, while suggs suggestions should only appear on /ui/suggestions (although I'm not sure that's working now). It also doesn't feature in the suggs log.


----------



## bradleyem

I've had Tivo for over 6 years now, and I don't think I have ever watched a Suggestion. Suggestions won't make me leave TiVo, HD will


----------



## Pugwash

I had a natural suggestion record the other day. Could it be for old programmes with low numbers?


----------



## steveroe

I asked back in post #210 whether this would be the case, but never got an answer...


----------



## nickf

Old _programmes_ (eg Sky at Night has been showing for 50 years!), or old _episodes of programmes_ eg an old episode of, erm, say Dad's Army?


----------



## Sneals2000

PhilG said:


> Am I the only person who uses wishlists to "trap" programs I might otherwise miss?
> 
> I'm not sure I've seen Wishlist-type functionality on ANY PVR apart from Tivo (the ability to search for titles, title keywords, actors, directors, keywords etc. etc. etc.)
> 
> THIS would probably be my Tivo-killer if it ever stopped working
> 
> Suggestions? - Never used 'em
> 
> Phil G


Windows Media Center has Keyword recordings - where you can schedule recordings for any shows with keywords in : actor name, director name, movie title, program title, or a generic keyword (which I assume looks in titles and synopsis stuff).

This is the nearest thing to a Tivo Wishlist I've found.


----------



## steveroe

nickf said:


> Old _programmes_ (eg Sky at Night has been showing for 50 years!), or old _episodes of programmes_ eg an old episode of, erm, say Dad's Army?


An episode of a programme (or a standalone programme/film) that was created on the Tribune system when TMS id's were 12 digits in length...


----------



## ericd121

Pugwash said:


> I had a natural suggestion record the other day. Could it be for old programmes with low numbers?


I thumbed half a dozen programmes this morning; all appeared in my Suggestions screen, along with one which I didn't thumb. My thinking is that Tivo was working with what little data it had and chose this one to match.

I've been thumbing programmes to fill up, and thereafter indicate, free space.

Somewhere in this long-ish thread, I think someone said that thumb data is wiped out after every data download so, for me, this is quite good as I can create Suggestions at will without the hassle of Tivo changing the live channel when I'm watching the news in the morning. :up:

Incidentally, my other Tivo recorded a natural Suggestion with no concious intervention from me. I'm guessing I must have somehow interacted with the Suggestions engine by setting a recording or deleting something from the To Do List.


----------



## nickf

ericd121 said:


> Somewhere in this long-ish thread, I think someone said that thumb data is wiped out after every data download...


I don't think that's true - I think it was just a theory as to why Suggestions weren't working any more.


----------



## huggy

What irritates me is that there was no alerting of the customers of the lack of this service, we all get tivo messages, so why not let us know there is a problem. I have been rebooting and fiddling about with mine for a couple of weeks now to try and sort out this problem...what a waste of my time. Next time my Tivo breaks down, (and yes it has bitten the dust twice already, to be fixed at a charge approaching its original cost, because I couldn't bear not to have it) its not going to get fixed, sky+, reluctantly, here i come.


----------



## huggy

Deadkenny, I couldn't have put it better, different people use the equipment in a different way. My suggestions facility flagged up a lot of progs that I would never have found, because I didn't know they were there, or even what they were about. You cant search for something that you might be interested in AND still have a life. Suggestions WAS the best part of the kit as far as I am concerned, now its gone, its only a matter of time before I walk. Pity, I loved it.


----------



## DeadKenny

bradleyem said:


> Suggestions won't make me leave TiVo, HD will


Personally I feel I have two thirds of a TiVo now. Suggestions were important to me, but as I bought a lifetime sub right at the start and had a longer service out of it than I expected, it's not going to make me chuck the thing out of the window.

I can see that monthly subscribers who did value subscriptions may be annoyed though. Though personally it seems a bit crazy to have spent such a fortune on TiVo (assuming subscribing from the beginning)! 

But yes, HD will make me leave. However, I'm not hearing good things about Sky HD. Big problems with box faults, lack of supply for new boxes (no new boxes until the new year apparently), a lot of bugs in the software including a lip sync issue that seems can make the service unwatchable, and the "new" EPG has been further delayed.

Once a decent HD PVR platform exists though, that's the end of TiVo for me.


----------



## TCM2007

There were some problems - I had one of the first boxes, installed on day 1, and it did need replacing a few weeks later. The second one worked fine however.

There are now 600,000 Sky HD boxes in use, and if problems were seriously widespread you'd know about it. With that many boxes out there using what is still quite cutting end tech there are bound to be some lemons.


----------



## nickf

DeadKenny said:


> Once a decent HD PVR platform exists though, that's the end of TiVo for me.


I think that might be a Freesat+ Humax PVR.


----------



## DeadKenny

nickf said:


> I think that might be a Freesat+ Humax PVR.


Just the slight problem of it only having one HD channel currently 

And worse it's ITV, and I would have only been interested for F1, but that's going back to the Beeb, thankfully (no adverts:up: ).


----------



## nickf

There's BBC HD as well as ITV... and I'm (not so) secretly hoping that they manage to bring us the GP in HD next year.


----------



## ghstone

Yeah, The Beeb is a full HD channel, while ITV requires interaction pressing of the button to go to HD if available. Niot sure we'll get F1 in HD though as the actual camera work is done by the local TV company - in our case BBC (even when it was ITV they used BBC O/B units at Silverstone).

So it will depend on whether they choose to invest in HD for those broadcasts, or Bernie mandates it.

Back to the real debate though, sewems to me there are too many characters of that 12/14 character ID being used for Type (we don't need EP for Episode there are 35 variants without getting into special characters), and too many allocated for the episode number - I've not got into code level hacking yet but doesn't this offer scope for a conversion which won't mess anything up ?

On the 'release the code' argumernt, I'd say they never will - it contains TiVos patented things (strangely enough the :up: and :down: and proper season pass stuff), release the code and it will be popping up on Sky+, and that would never do...


Oh, and for those who reckon Sky+ offers similar functions for similar cost, you haven't factored in replacing the unit every 12-18 months when the hard drive fails; Or the time wasted, and cost of popcorn and beer, when you sit down to watch a program it should have recorded but decided not to.


----------



## Pugwash

Japan have been filming in HD for years, so there's one race you might be guaranteed?


----------



## martink0646

ghstone said:


> Yeah, The Beeb is a full HD channel, while ITV requires interaction pressing of the button to go to HD if available. Niot sure we'll get F1 in HD though as the actual camera work is done by the local TV company - in our case BBC (even when it was ITV they used BBC O/B units at Silverstone).
> 
> So it will depend on whether they choose to invest in HD for those broadcasts, or Bernie mandates it.


Hi,

F1 in HD on the Beeb is looking good. If you look at the thread below and read from post 157 on you'll find some interesting info/speculation;

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=394830&page=6

From my knowledge & research on this topic I have discovered various things including the fact that all FOM's (Formula One Management) cameras are all HD and that the feed already exists, it just isn't given to anyone.....yet. All camera work is controlled by FOM through their contract with Sislink (who bought the Beeb's OB unit). Hosyt broadcasters use their own cameras for their on air talent, grid walks etc but the main feed is centralized. There is also a post from another forum from a BBC engineer responsiblr for the interactive red button stuff and it looks like we are going to get 4 extra feeds for timing, in car, highlights etc although they wont be HD.

Have a read!

Martin


----------



## Goooner1

ghstone said:


> Oh, and for those who reckon Sky+ offers similar functions for similar cost, you haven't factored in replacing the unit every 12-18 months when the hard drive fails; Or the time wasted, and cost of popcorn and beer, when you sit down to watch a program it should have recorded but decided not to.


Can't say I've had either problem with my Sky HD box.


----------



## cyril

Goooner1 said:


> Can't say I've had either problem with my Sky HD box.


I get the odd failed recording (for no real reason) on all 4 of my SkyHD boxes, though my new Pace one is perhaps 5% more reliable than the original Thomson Sky+HD boxes.


----------



## TCM2007

ghstone said:


> On the 'release the code' argumernt, I'd say they never will - it contains TiVos patented things (strangely enough the :up: and :down: and proper season pass stuff), release the code and it will be popping up on Sky+, and that would never do...


It's often said that TiVo has the patent on thumbs. I've looked through their patents list, and I can't see it.

They do have a patent on the whole idea of a PVR mind...


----------



## TCM2007

Did you know there are more Sky+s in the UK than there are TiVos in the US.

How depressing is that...


----------



## dvdfever

TCM2007 said:


> Did you know there are more Sky+s in the UK than there are TiVos in the US.
> 
> How depressing is that...


There's a lot of stupid people in the UK. How else could one explain Labour getting elected for 3 terms in a row?


----------



## cyril

dvdfever said:


> There's a lot of stupid people in the UK. How else could one explain Labour getting elected for 3 terms in a row?


Same as Sky+ - lack of any decent competition 

On the plus side more people who have Sky+ will be more likely to see the value of having a decent PVR and we may be more likely to pickup a Series 8 TiVo in 2019 when you can get a quad tuner HD multiroom box with a few TB of storage for 50 quid i.e. hardware costs are negligible so the differentiator will be superior software i.e. TiVo


----------



## taid

TCM2007 said:


> Did you know there are more Sky+s in the UK than there are TiVos in the US.
> 
> How depressing is that...


Suggests that Tivo's marketing people in the States are as bad as the ones thay had over here ..


----------



## Pete77

cyril said:


> On the plus side more people who have Sky+ will be more likely to see the value of having a decent PVR and we may be more likely to pickup a Series 8 TiVo in 2019 when you can get a quad tuner HD multiroom box with a few TB of storage for 50 quid i.e. hardware costs are negligible so the differentiator will be superior software i.e. TiVo


No by then all tv will be IPStreamed and available on demand at any time so there will be no need for multiple tuners or recording it on a local hard drive.

Also rights management will have been tightened up so it is impossible to watch a broadcast program after a week or a month and so there will be no point in having huge hard drive capacity on a local PVR.

PCs with local hard drives will obviously disappear in favour of a Cloud type setup with dumb terminals as the great unwashed clearly cannot be expected to manage or carry out their own backups. Also that makes it even easier for the government to be checking up on what everyone is up to.


----------



## TCM2007

...and we'll drive flying cars and eat meals in pill form...


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> ...and we'll drive flying cars and eat meals in pill form...


Flying cars are at least 30+ years away as the level of computer power and centralised networking of all flying cars control programs required to do it safely and reliably in an automated fashion is still a long way off.

I don't see meals in pill form ever happening unless we all turn in to Cybermen.


----------



## Benedict

Pete77 said:


> Flying cars are at least 30+ years away.....


Flying cars have been around for over 100 years!

Invented by the Wright brothers in 1903.


----------



## Pete77

Benedict said:


> Flying cars have been around for over 100 years!
> 
> Invented by the Wright brothers in 1903.


But they require high levels of skill and long hours of training to fly.

We are talking here of cars that any old idiot can safely fly and where Air Traffic Control is completely automated and near totally safer. Also they wouldn't fly higher than say 200 foot above the ground and only take to the air when the roads were too congested.


----------



## Benedict

Pete77 said:


> But they require high levels of skill and long hours of training to fly.


I suspect the same may have been said of the motor vehicle when it was first invented.


----------



## Ashley

I want my own jet pack!


----------



## dvdfever

Pete77 said:


> PCs with local hard drives will obviously disappear in favour of a Cloud type setup with dumb terminals as the great unwashed clearly cannot be expected to manage or carry out their own backups. Also that makes it even easier for the government to be checking up on what everyone is up to.


I've never understood why people think that's a good idea. It's as if the people who came up with it have never had a dropped internet connection.

And then there's the government situation you mention, after which they'll put a copy of all your data on a memory stick and then erm... oh, where did I put it...


----------



## TCM2007

Indeed. Backing up "into the cloud" seems like a good idea, and some things are usefully done there (Google Bookmarks ability to give you the same boomarks on any PC you use is very handy). But in genaral it will add to the options but not replace local computers.


----------



## riggers

My Tivo has just started to record a film as a suggestion. The last suggestion it recorded was in August. Thought they were broken, has something happened?


----------



## nickf

We still seem to get occasional Suggestions, not really sure why...


----------



## warrenrb

Yes, I'm still getting some suggestions now and again. Surely if the data format had changed it would just be broken, full-stop?


----------



## nickf

There was some talk of old episodes still having old IDs so it being possible to suggest them - can't remember now if it was in this thread or not (but it probably was)


----------



## djb2002

Yes, I'm still getting occasional suggestions recorded too - I thought someone said they had stopped completely... ??


----------



## nbaker

I seem to be getting 1 or 2 suggestions a week

Shame this is not working, for me this was one of the main features of the Tivo that I really miss.

I have also noticed quite a few inaccuracies in the program guide data recently, and several recordings have been missed as a result.

The series 1 Tivo is now just an out of date ugly PVR, time to look for a replacement me thinks esp. as mine will be needing a new hard drive soon.

Very sad indeed


----------



## aerialplug

Same here - it's the only thing that has kept me using TiVo for so long in parallel with my Sky+ box (using Sky Multiroom). The only thing that's stopped me from cancelling the multiroom is that I can record Sky Box Office movies on the TiVo and watch them at my lesiure and not the 24 hours Sky+ allows me - though this happens so rarely that it hardly justifys the &#163;10 a month.

Thinking of getting a Freeview PVR, - my absolutely disasterous experience of the Tevion 709 and the way each software fix they provided progressively turned the box more and more unusable until the last one they provided caused the box to fail to lock onto any channel after a few minutes...

Then the advice was to take it back to Aldi - but I'd lost the receipt and my local Aldi resolutely refused to take it back without one despite the fact that the model hadn't been in the country for more than a year and that Aldi were the only one selling the Tevion branded PVR. In the end, I had the hard drive out of it - at least it provided some satisfactory use in the end.


----------



## Pete77

TivoPony has just made a rather interesting new post in the thread on the US side of the forum discussing the loss of normal Suggestions functionality on most/all (depending who you believe) US Tivo Series 1 boxes.

It seems that Tivo now admit to having identified a problem with a change in the format of the genres that may well have caused the problem with Suggestions not recording to happen, or at least certainly on the US Series 1 Tivos.

You can read TivoPony's post at:-

www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6853223#post6853223


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> It seems that Tivo now admit to having identified a problem with a change in the format ...


"admit"? You are king of the conspiracy theories!


----------



## mutant_matt2

Just wondering if this thread is at the end of life (like suggestions  ), or if anyone knows if there are likely to be any further updates?

I ask because, I am quite disappointed that suggestions have died, not as mortified as I would be if Wishlists broke, obviously, but none-the-less.... 

When I have a mo, I'll check out Mikerr's alternative suggestions hack, as I am keen to retain as much of this functionality as possible.

I always knew Tivo would come to an end in the UK one day, it's just been working for so many years, you forget it has to be maintained, or it's a brick within two weeks, and it's upsetting to find out this might finally, be the beginning of the end. I need it to hang on in there a couple more years, until the market has matured just a little more, so I can jump to a Freesat HD capable equivalent, without (hopefully) having to resort to something that runs on top of anything nasty, supplied by Microsoft!

Anyone got any experience of MythTV these days? Perhaps that might be the best answer? (once they've got DVB-S2 support working properly!)

Cheers,

Matt (long time viewer/poster who forgot his original password and the email addy is long since dead)


----------



## cwaring

What else is there? Suggestions don't work and they never will again. That's it.


----------



## Nero2

mutant_matt2 said:


> Just wondering if this thread is at the end of life (like suggestions  ), or if anyone knows if there are likely to be any further updates?


Who dares to dream?



TiVoPony said:


> Unfortunately at this time the proposed solution is only for US Series1 DVR's. *We're still investigating* whether anything can be done for the UK Series1 Suggestions.


From here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6913510

Post #287

Thanks


----------



## ciper

I think if we could get more non UK people involved in helping to improve Suggs http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=404932 suggestions could be nearly restored to the way they were.


----------



## TiVoPony

Ok all - there has been progress. Not enough that we can declare a solution is at hand, but enough that we're almost ready to do a bit of testing.

TiVoDataGuy has been working on the problem for quite a while now, and he's looking for the TSN's of some willing and able testers. He only needs a few, and they need to be people who are comfortable teleneting into their box. If you don't know what I mean by that, you're not who he's looking for. 

If you're willing to help and have the skills, drop TiVoDataGuy a private message via the forum with your name, contact info, and TSN. He's only looking for a handful of people, and you'll be sworn to secrecy...so don't be disappointed if you're not called upon, and given that we're so close to the holidays you may not hear anything more until after the new year.

But...there's been ongoing work, and it's looking more promising. As always, we appreciate your patience and your help.

Thanks,
Pony


----------



## steveroe

:up: Yay for Pony. Merry Christmas to you. :up:


----------



## cwaring

Fair enough. I sit corrected.


----------



## AENG

Great hearing from you again, TiVo Pony! If it comes good to the extent you seem to be hoping, then in my case it will come down to just the inability of our series 1 TiVos to deal with HD that will sound the death-knell here of an otherwise brilliant product.


----------



## Nero2

TiVoPony said:


> <snip>


PM sent.

Thanks Pony


----------



## ciper

TiVoPony said:


> Ok all - there has been progress. Not enough that we can declare a solution is at hand, but enough that we're almost ready to do a bit of testing.


I'm...,,, nearly speechless.
My faith has been partially restored


----------



## Prof. Yaffle

PM sent as well.


----------



## djb2002

PM sent too.


----------



## Pete77

So TivoPony posted with some positive news on the future of S1 Suggestions in the US thread on 12th December 2008 (see http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6913510#post6913510) and in this thread on 17th December 2008 but neither of those events sent me a post update email for either thread (even though I was subscribed to both of them). Yet finally today (December 22nd) I get a post update email for the latest post in the US Suggestions thread but not for this one. Something funny is going on somewhere. Also I note that there has not been the normal expected flood of responses in this thread, all wanting to be a beta tester, if everyone had got their post update emails as normal after TivoPony posted on Dec 17th. This suggests to me that www.tivocommunity.com has some kind of generalised problem with post update emails possibly not being sent out at the moment? Or is it just post update emails for the two threads about Suggestions not working on the UK and US S1 machines that are not being sent out as normal. 

I can telnet and FTP to my Tivo S1 box but cannot currently use Tivoweb following a recent /var wipeout. I guess I will PM my details to TivoDataGuy and see what happens.


----------



## djb2002

Pete77 said:


> Also I note that there has not been the normal expected flood of responses in this thread, all wanting to be a beta tester, if everyone had got their post update emails as normal after TivoPony posted on Dec 17th.


A lot of people will have just PM'd as suggested - However has anyone had a reply back ?? (I know I haven't).

Thanks


----------



## Pete77

djb2002 said:


> A lot of people will have just PM'd as suggested - However has anyone had a reply back ?? (I know I haven't).


Either TivoDataGuy is confident he doesn't need any UK testers (if the fault is basically the same as the one that hit Suggestions on the US Tivos despite earlier denials this was so) or he is not going to get round to progressing work on the UK Tivo Suggestions solution until the New Year I would imagine.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> So TivoPony posted with some positive news on the future of S1 Suggestions in the US thread on 12th December 2008 (see http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6913510#post6913510) and in this thread on 17th December 2008 but neither of those events sent me a post update email for either thread (even though I was subscribed to both of them). Yet finally today (December 22nd) I get a post update email for the latest post in the US Suggestions thread but not for this one. Something funny is going on somewhere.


Have you tried asking in the Forum Operations Center... erm... Forum?


----------



## OzSat

As TiVo virtually closes down for the holidays, I don't think much is likely to happen until at least 6th Jan.


----------



## Rob Randall

I know I'm feeding the trolls, but here goes anyway 


Pete77 said:


> Either TivoDataGuy is confident he doesn't need any UK testers (if the fault is basically the same as the one that hit Suggestions on the US Tivos despite earlier denials this was so) or he is not going to get round to progressing work on the UK Tivo Suggestions solution until the New Year I would imagine.


I know you like making assumptions Pete77, but there is no conspiracy here. To quote from TiVoPony earlier in this thread


TiVoPony said:


> He's only looking for a handful of people, and you'll be *sworn to secrecy*...so don't be disappointed if you're not called upon.


 which means that you won't hear on these forums if anyone has been recruited for testing or not.

And you don't need to _imagine_ anything about holiday delays, because TiVoPony already said this


TiVoPony said:


> and given that we're so close to the holidays you may not hear anything more until after the new year.


I'm quite happy to wait and see if they can come up with a solution and give them a suitable amount of time for development and testing. In the mean time, the hack from mikerr is doing a fine job for me


----------



## MrShades

PM sent - TurboNet'ed, tivoweb enabled, unix loving, Suggestions missing long term UK user MORE than willing to test to get this working again!

Whilst I've only ever had a lifetime sub - originally taken out many years ago, so I can't complain that I've not had value for money really - I'd still love to see it working 100% again... god knows I've faffed around enough with the off/reboot/on/reboot/call & reset thumbs, etc. etc. etc. suggestions over the past few weeks...

Fingers crossed...

Shades


----------



## woldsweather

MrShades said:


> PM sent - TurboNet'ed, tivoweb enabled, unix loving, Suggestions missing long term UK user MORE than willing to test to get this working again!
> 
> Whilst I've only ever had a lifetime sub - originally taken out many years ago, so I can't complain that I've not had value for money really - I'd still love to see it working 100% again... god knows I've faffed around enough with the off/reboot/on/reboot/call & reset thumbs, etc. etc. etc. suggestions over the past few weeks...
> 
> Fingers crossed...
> 
> Shades


Where can I find out what 'Suggestions' is? ...and am I missing something not using wishlists?


----------



## mikerr

woldsweather said:


> Where can I find out what 'Suggestions' is?


What are suggestions

They are the programmes at the bottom of your now-playing list that tivo automatically records for you based on your viewing habits.
E.g. record lots of sport, and tivo will automatically record some more to use up otherwise empty disk space

They stopped working a few months back.


> ...and am I missing something not using wishlists?


Yes, you are missing out 
Wishlists let you find and record stuff you like
e.g. auto record all programmes featuring "helicopters"


----------



## woldsweather

I've never known TiVo record anything I haven't told it to must not have noticed, but then I don't watch sport!


----------



## Benedict

Then you probably had suggestions turned off all this time.

Suggestions always appear at the bottom of Now Playing, with a black TiVo logo next to them instead of a yellow or green blob.


----------



## woldsweather

woldsweather said:


> I've never known TiVo record anything I haven't told it to must not have noticed, but then I don't watch sport!


OK - thanks - that sounds about right, have had the TiVo 5/6 years (my no. of posts time since joining is wrong due to re-instsalls), have just discovered wishlist too the other day after reading about suggestions here.


----------



## ptruman

PM also sent. It's really annoying not having suggestions, even though I now have 50% free space on TiVo....


----------



## Chris T

Interestingly my Tivo recorded a program as a suggestion last Saturday (20th).


----------



## cleudo

Chris T said:


> Interestingly my Tivo recorded a program as a suggestion last Saturday (20th).


sorry.. but... we've all been there....


----------



## a_tivo_noob

I'm still getting random suggestion recordings (once every couple of weeks)... today's suggestion was 'Emma' on ITV3... hmm, thanks Tivo  lol


----------



## daveh

I am using Mikerr's excellent Suggs hack and for some reason the quality of the selection seems to be far better matched to programs I actually like than when Tivo's own suggestions was working correctly. I presume both share the same selection processes, so no idea why this might be.


----------



## dunkrag

Sadly this day was always going to come, but it's time to cancel my subs and move to Sky HD. 

Poor picture quality, lack of suggestions, next to zero customer support, and &#163;10 a month has pushed the poor old TiVo into uneconomical territory to me. I've loved the little box for a long time but I can't live with all the negatives anymore. A scart connection into a 42'' plasma just doesn't cut it anymore. 

It's still a mystery to me why they pulled out of UK.


----------



## a_tivo_noob

suggestions are a weird little world arent they... i've had sporadic for months but then had 1 a day for approx. the last 5 days... i know they aren't fixed but it's very weird!!


----------



## pj280167

I too have noticed increased suggestions activity. I've had nowt for the last 4/5 months now 5 in the last week and this is on a newly imaged hard drive with no thumb ratings. Most odd. Maybe Mr Pony is further along than he was letting on, let's hope eh ?


----------



## Pete77

pj280167 said:


> Maybe Mr Pony is further along than he was letting on, let's hope eh ?


I believe it is his colleague TivoDataGuy who is actually on the case.

I presume your Suggestions list in Pick Programmes To Record is still entirely blank though?


----------



## cleudo

Maybe it's got something to do with the outrageous number of old repeats we've been suffering over the last week or so...

Lol


----------



## a_tivo_noob

lol must be as nothing in 'Tivo Suggestions'... something else recorded last night as well!!!!!


----------



## laurence

dunkrag said:


> Poor picture quality, lack of suggestions, next to zero customer support, and £10 a month has pushed the poor old TiVo into uneconomical territory to me. I've loved the little box for a long time but I can't live with all the negatives anymore. A scart connection into a 42'' plasma just doesn't cut it anymore.


Have you installed the mode 0 hack? I have a projector and with mode 0 installed, a decent set top box and using the RGB output the picture is fine. Without mode 0 it was pretty poor. The only support I use is chaps on this forum - and they've always been a fantastic help.


----------



## mccg

I thought mode 0 was fine too... until I got my Humax Freesat+ HDR. even SD is much better (on a 42" plasma), and of course, BBC HD is incredible.
I don't think I'll be able to go back to Tivo now :-(
(especially as it gives me a "failed while loading series" or something like that now - I have tried re-doing guided setup a few times, going to aerial, then back to FSFS setup, but after about 6 hours I get the same error)


----------



## mutant_matt2

I was going to say to dunkrag, depending on what channels you must have, I'd go for a Humax HD PVR instead of the world of pain that Sky HD is (for the money!). IMHO, right now, it's the next best thing to TiVo!

I think right now, (that F1 is back on the Beeb (and possibly in HD no less), that MotoGP is no longer on Eurosport), personally, the attraction of Sky is fast dwindling, and the onset of more FTA HD channels on Freesat, is going to take up the slack nicely. I certainly hope so, having just invested in a 50" Panasonic Plasma with Freesat built in!  (I hope Mode 0 is all I need to be happy with TiVo for a few more years yet on the new (bigger) panel!).

I was planning on waiting a little to see if the rumoured Panny Freesat PVR with BD-R is actually going to materialise, otherwise I'll be adding said Humax to my TiVo as backup/2nd (and 3rd) channel recorder, and for HD recording.

Anyway, back on topic, waiting with baited breath TivoDataGuy and TivoPony for the fruits of your efforts to get suggs working again, I miss them! 

Cheers,

Matt.


----------



## pj280167

Pete77 said:


> I believe it is his colleague TivoDataGuy who is actually on the case.
> 
> I presume your Suggestions list in Pick Programmes To Record is still entirely blank though?


Indeed, to both.


----------



## pj280167

My TiVo suggestions list had the programme Van Helsing listed last night.. The first listing that I've noticed for a good few months. Progress ?


----------



## DeadKenny

pj280167 said:


> My TiVo suggestions list had the programme Van Helsing listed last night.. The first listing that I've noticed for a good few months. Progress ?


Had one recently, but it's likely based on some old data or something that isn't tripped up by the "bug". Don't think any changes have been made. The suggestions page is still empty.


----------



## pj280167

Just to confirm the listing for Van Helsing was on the TiVo Suggestions page and was for an upcoming programme not an already recorded programme shown in Now Playing.


----------



## Gavin

mutant_matt2 said:


> that F1 is back on the Beeb (and possibly in HD no less),


Nope the Beeb say they won't be doing the F1 in HD, as no-one can offer them a feed. I thought the host nation did the broadcast so theres no excuse for the UK not to be in HD.

We've the 42'' Panny with Freesat. Pictures great, content is still pants...


----------



## cleudo

Just wondered... have any of those who pm'ed in to test TiVo suggestion changes been contacted by TiVo yet?

Not asking anyone to divulge anything - just wondering whether they're on the case or not...


----------



## ptruman

Erm, has anyone checked the TiVo website?

http://www.tivo.com/ - click on support.
There is a link specifically for Tivo Series 1 suggestions, which goes to http://www.tivo.com/beta

It then asks you to sign up for beta field trials - which sends you an email to confirm your ID, and links you to create an account - which wants some details (inc. your TSID)

I've signed up, so hopefully I'll hear something back - although I work for someone who has a division which produces DVRs, so might not be able to - the wording reads :

_Explicitly, this bars from testing and further entry into this web site, persons involved in the development and/or production of competing products. _

I don't have anything to do with that division, and am an avid TiVo user so would love to help get suggestions (or newer TiVos!) going in the UK again.

The impression from the site is that if you're in the US (at least) you might get new kit to play with - as they want shipping details too....


----------



## JudyB

Gavin said:


> Nope the Beeb say they won't be doing the F1 in HD, as no-one can offer them a feed. I thought the host nation did the broadcast so theres no excuse for the UK not to be in HD.


There was a comment (I think on the BBC website) which suggested that one grand prix this year would be HD. Although it didn't say explicitly my guess would be that the British GP should be HD on the BBC.
The oddest part of F1 and HD is that the trackside cameras are apparently all HD...


----------



## cwaring

ptruman said:


> I've signed up


As have I


----------



## Benedict

cwaring said:


> As have I


I'm in the process of doing so too, although I'm not at home which is causing me a problem. Is there a way to find your TSN via TiVoWeb? (If there is I can't see it!) I assumed it would be on the info screen.


----------



## ptruman

Benedict said:


> I'm in the process of doing so too, although I'm not at home which is causing me a problem. Is there a way to find your TSN via TiVoWeb? (If there is I can't see it!) I assumed it would be on the info screen.


It should be in/on the "info" section/page 
(check for "Service Number" - that's your TSN)


----------



## Benedict

ptruman said:


> It should be in/on the "info" section/page
> (check for "Service Number" - that's your TSN)


Definitely not there - on either of my TiVos.


----------



## ptruman

Benedict said:


> Definitely not there - on either of my TiVos.


My bad - TiVoweb doesn't show it - TiVoweb PLUS does 

On TiVoweb plus, I go to http://tivo/info and see :

TiVo Box Information
Software System:	2.5.5-01-1-023
Service Number:	XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Sorry!


----------



## Nero2

cleudo said:


> Just wondered... have any of those who pm'ed in to test TiVo suggestion changes been contacted by TiVo yet?


Nope, and I don't belief that any of the US Series 1 beta test volunteers have been contacted either.


----------



## ColinYounger

Ummm.. if they have to sign an NDA, they won't be able to say anything at all.


----------



## CH1

My un-modded TiVo (apart from a new modem after coming off worst from a set to with a lightening flash) has been a bit tempremental for months so I bit the bullet and got a Thompson PVR - the problem with the PVR is it doesn't know that a radio series is a series so has to be reminded every 2 weeks (as it only carries 2 weeks' data) AND it doesn't make suggestions (I'm not sure why they couldn't have had the same set up as TiVo but maybe the ability for people to collect our viewing data is what they though made people shy away from TiVo in the first place). Sorry to report my parents took theirs to the tip before I knew or I would have rescued it (they are in an area where they can't get Freeview so were forced to go to Sky anyway). Anyway, found this so frustrating, I reset my TiVo and hooked it up to second TV to find suggestions had diappeared - returning to the community after a long absence, I now understand what has hapened - will keep checking back!


----------



## Pete77

CH1 said:


> Sorry to report my parents took theirs to the tip before I knew or I would have rescued it (they are in an area where they can't get Freeview so were forced to go to Sky anyway).


But were they not aware that a Tivo can control a subscribed or unsubscribed Sky Digibox or a BBC/ITV Freesat box just as well as it can control a Freeview box?

I do hope that Tivo that went to the tip did not have a Lifetime Sub.

By the way I would thought a Humax BBC/ITV Freesat HD box came much rather closer to your requirement for a Tivo replacement than the Thomson box that you purchased.

See www.freesat.co.uk/index.php?page=products.Products&type_id=3


----------



## Pete77

ptruman said:


> Erm, has anyone checked the TiVo website?
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/ - click on support.
> There is a link specifically for Tivo Series 1 suggestions, which goes to http://www.tivo.com/beta


But I think you will find that link is only for the US Series 1 Beta test program and also over in the US Help Centre Forum thread on the discontinuation of Suggestions it has been explicitly reported that Tivo will only accept totally unmodded S1 units for the Beta test program.

So that would knock out about 85% of the people in this forum who might be interested in becoming a Beta tester.


----------



## mutant_matt2

True but, TivoPony *did* say:

"TiVoDataGuy has been working on the problem for quite a while now, and he's looking for the TSN's of some willing and able testers. He only needs a few, and they need to be people who are comfortable teleneting into their box. If you don't know what I mean by that, you're not who he's looking for."

That very much sounds like someone with a hacked box to me. If they want someone with the experience/knowledge, but an unhacked TiVo, that's going to be quite a short list, isn't it? (mind you, there seem to be plenty of people on here with multiple TiVos, so they *might* have one which is still standard (or could be put back to standard)).

Matt


----------



## Pete77

Yes I can't see how they are going to get a UK box with telnet access etc unless it has been hacked with a network card now you come to mention it.

And wouldn't that also be trued for US Series 1 Tivos as well?


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> But I think you will find that link is only for the US Series 1 Beta test program and also over in the US Help Centre Forum thread on the discontinuation of Suggestions it has been explicitly reported that Tivo will only accept totally unmodded S1 units for the Beta test program.
> 
> So that would knock out about 85% of the people in this forum who might be interested in becoming a Beta tester.


When I went through the process of signing-up to the Beta program there wasn't any questions regarding whether my unit was modded or not.


----------



## einstein

[email protected] said:


> You must have lots of friends! Either that or you're a very, very good salesman. My friends have been impressed with my tivo, but none of them went out and bought one. If tivo return to the UK, they'd do well to employ you!


when did you purchase your TiVo, we all purchased ours 9 years ago, in the beginning!


----------



## TiVoPony

All,

Good news. We have successfully identified and tested a fix for the issue with TiVo Suggestions. It will be rolling out via the service over the next few days - there is no software update, it's all taken care of by the TiVo Service. 

I'm happy to be able to pass this information along. While I've been pushing this issue internally, credit must go to TiVoDataGuy and his team for persevering and identifying the fix. The issue was not related to the Tribune ID change as initially thought, but had to do with other changes made to the service during that same period of time.

As I mentioned, the fix will be applied via the service over the next few days to both US and UK Series1 systems. You won't see anything visibly change as far as software versions. By the end of the week we expect you'll be seeing items in the TiVo Suggestions list again and making recordings.

Special thanks as well to all of those on the forum who helped us narrow and identify this issue (as well as test the fix). We appreciate your patience and your help!

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## ciper

TiVoPony: Thank you for letting everyone know. I think it's great that TiVo is addressing the Suggestions issue and the unable to download guide data issue.

Is there any possibility we can have more information about the fix?


----------



## Pete77

I have already posted my congratulations to both TivoPony and TivoDataGuy for successfully transforming the ashes of disaster in to the sweet smell of success over in the US Help forum Suggestions thread. See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7023402#post7023402

So my only remaining question now is just which flavour of hat would TCM2007 would most prefer to eat.

P.S. A further hat is also available for PaperBagHatMan after his forecast of only 20 remaining active users of the Tivo UK section of this website (no doubt intended to encourage his fellow coders at Tivo in Aviso to believe there was no point in worrying about faults in the operation of S1 Tivos back in the old country) was so spectacularly proved to be incorrect.


----------



## steveroe

:up::up::up::up:

Big thanks to Pony and DataGuy plus all those who coded, tested and beta'd the software, also to those UK users who persisted with their complaints to get it fixed.

Now ... when do we get a Series 3?


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> So my only remaining question now is just which flavour of hat would TCM2007 would most prefer to eat..


?


----------



## einstein

TiVoPony said:


> All,
> 
> Good news. We have successfully identified and tested a fix for the issue with TiVo Suggestions. It will be rolling out via the service over the next few days - there is no software update, it's all taken care of by the TiVo Service.
> 
> I'm happy to be able to pass this information along. While I've been pushing this issue internally, credit must go to TiVoDataGuy and his team for persevering and identifying the fix. The issue was not related to the Tribune ID change as initially thought, but had to do with other changes made to the service during that same period of time.
> 
> As I mentioned, the fix will be applied via the service over the next few days to both US and UK Series1 systems. You won't see anything visibly change as far as software versions. By the end of the week we expect you'll be seeing items in the TiVo Suggestions list again and making recordings.
> 
> Special thanks as well to all of those on the forum who helped us narrow and identify this issue (as well as test the fix). We appreciate your patience and your help!
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


Many Thanks for fixing the suggestions.


----------



## cleudo

Wa hayyy - daily mail just arrived with a stack of suggestions.

Fantastic. Well done TiVo!!!!!!!


----------



## cwaring

Yay! Now I can look forward to lots of suggestions that I have no interest in just because the show is in one category I :up: but about three I don't care about 

PS. Pete77. Give it a rest. How many times have _you_ been wrong on here


----------



## AMc

Good news! Thanks for working on a fix for our venerable old series 1 boxes!


----------



## cwaring

Yeah. I'd like to say how bad I feel for those who decided that they'd get rid of their Tivos when suggestions disappeared; but instead I'll just go


----------



## carl newman

I'd like to thank TivoPony and TivoDataGuy for sorting this out, but even more so, i'd like to thank Mikerr for "stepping up" when the "going got tough" and creating a cracking suggestions module, which although didnt give exactly the same functionality as Tivo suggestions, was still a fantastic achievement and goes to show what can be done when someone puts their mind to it even after being told that changes to the guide data would prevent suggestions from working!

I havent had suggestions appear yet but am 100&#37; confident that they will appear!

Mikerr, do i need to remove the suggs module? Will it stop Tivo suggestions working correctly?


----------



## DX30

I'd just want to add my thanks for the fix - it is good to know the S1 is still being supported.


----------



## mikerr

carl newman said:


> Mikerr, do i need to remove the suggs module? Will it stop Tivo suggestions working correctly?


Actually they will work fine alongside each other;

Tivo suggestions are days ahead, but only ever 2-3 per day - suggs will fill in the gaps in the schedule.
Since suggs only schedules a few hours ahead, tivo suggestions will take priority since they would already be in the todo list.

Unless you want the increased volume of suggestions,
the need for suggs may have largely passed (happily!)


Suggs the alternative suggestion engine


----------



## davisa

Great news :up:

Well done TiVo.

Can we have a Series 3 now please?


----------



## cwaring

One step at a time, davisa


----------



## AENG

Great news. Thanks to everyone concerned. :up:


----------



## BrianHughes

cwaring said:


> One step at a time, davisa


OK can we have Series 2 then? 

Great job on suggestions & thanks to Mikerr for keeping us going in the meantime. Hugs all round.


----------



## katman

Great news. Now I can try tivo suggestions for the first time 

They broke at the same time that upgraded my Tivo. I did try them when I first got Tivo many years ago but because the whole family was using it their programs kept filling it up and I never got a look in LOL.


----------



## cwaring

BrianHughes said:


> OK can we have Series 2 then?


No-one likes a smart-alec, Brian


----------



## riggers

Woo-hoo got my first proper suggestion recorded for ages tonight 

Tivo did record A' Dol Dhachaigh for me a couple of week ago but I gave it a miss. No offence to any of our Gaelic bretheren.


----------



## Pete77

After I thumbed some programs this afternoon and made a couple of manual daily calls I now have two Suggestions showing in "Tivo's Suggestions" on the Tivo. As best I can remember it after Suggestions disappeared "Tivo's Suggestions" would never populate with any programs, even for recently thumbed items.

But the question is obviously when are the other 50 or 60 Suggestions in "Tivo's Suggestions" going to turn up?

I made a manual call around 4pm and my Tivo downloaded and processed a full set of daily data. But I have just made another manual call and it assures me it is "preparing data" but no data is Loading and anyhow I have already processed today's data. I wonder if that phantom "preparing data" message doesn't represent some kind of database restructuring command sent by Tivo to re-enable Suggestions that does not involve downloading any actual new data.

It has now finished "preparing data" but without "Loading" and I find I now have three Suggestions in "Tivo's Suggestions". But these may all relate only to programs I have thumbed this afternoon from the look of it.

I have done another daily call and this time it just set the clock and went almost immediately to Succeeded after only showing "preparing data" for a second or so. That is normal behaviour when the daily call and download has already happened that day. Something must have been going on with the previous call where it did not download data but had a long period of "preparing data".


----------



## OzSat

Suggestions are built overnight.


----------



## Maclynn

For the first time ever I am tempted to say Respect.


----------



## philatio

Overwhelmed. Stunned. Speechless.

Truely awesome customer service.


----------



## Mike Rogers

I too am overwhelmed. 
What a great company Tivo still is. Many, many thanks to all involved.


----------



## DanielB

Wow ... ok I was not expecting a fix but am very plesently supprised. Looking forward to suggestions returning. Thanks TiVo and also to Mikerr for as Carl correctly puts it "stepping up".

D


----------



## geekspeak

Thanks. Good news finally.


----------



## Pete77

So following an overnight reindex Tivo's Suggestions (under Pick Programmes to Record) now shows 77 programs, all of which seem to be precisely the same kind of program my Tivo previously used to record as Suggestions.

As my /var/hack directory and Tivoweb was wiped out a little while ago and I haven't yet got round to a reinstall (mainly because my two 3.5 year old Samsung HA250JC drives also seem to be showing early symptoms of failure like one program crashing the Tivo completely rather than playing back and a couple of other unexplained total lock ups when deleting or manipulating programs in Now Playing) I enabled backdoors manually and used the thumbs code sequence given by mikerr to enable display of Suggestions in the To Do list. Voila I now find loads of items in To Do are Suggestions when I select them as they show the Suggestions symbol (Tivo logo) in the individual program items.

Seems like Suggestions really is totally back to normal here and rather faster than TivoPony had thought might be the case.

Well done to TivoPony, TivoDataGuy, TivoJerry and anyone else at Tivo who was involved in restoring our S1 Tivos to full Suggestions functionality.:up::up::up:


----------



## SPR

" "!
No words to describe...pauses for a "Chilli Dance" of excitement

Guess there possibly goes my chance of picking up an Ebay bargain now though 

Top work TiVoDataGuy, TiVoPony et al - & fast work following the initial announmcement.
Fancy a PM job where I work? Never known an early delivery - always slippage :-0


----------



## tankstage

Whoopee !!! 
Three TiVo's all recording suggestions !!!!

Thanks for the fix.

Tank


----------



## kitschcamp

A very big cheer from here, also. Despite his nibs tutting at some of the stuff TiVo records as suggestions, he did miss them  And so did I.


----------



## TiVoDataGuy

Thanks everybody. Sorry it took a while to diagnose and work out all the kinks.

Have a great week,
Marcel


----------



## cwaring

Any chance of telling us what the problem was and how it was fixed? Be as general and non-specific as you like I'd just like to know what got broked and how it was un-broked


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> Any chance of telling us what the problem was and how it was fixed? Be as general and non-specific as you like I'd just like to know what got broked and how it was un-broked


Damn I was about to ask just the same question but then a phone call came in and you got there before me.

But yes I agree that while we are very grateful indeed for the great work done by Marcel and his team in fixing Suggestions (when we had almost lost hope for the British S1 Tivos of ever getting them back) it would also be very interesting to know what little gremlin took this part of the service down in the first place and what made the problem so hard to spot for a number of months.


----------



## cwaring

I've done a little bit of programming in my time (only back in the days of DOS though) and I'm willing to bet it was just a stray comma


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> I've done a little bit of programming in my time (only back in the days of DOS though) and I'm willing to bet it was just a stray comma


I have also done some programming here in the days of Machine Code, Assembler language (the short hand way to generate Machine Code) and Basic with line numbers (never liked doing it much though which is why I leave it to the professionals now) but I don't reckon that any code on our S1 Tivos was at fault since the program running on our S1 machines has not changed.

What probably happened is that Tivo changed the database structures on their servers in some way needed for enhancements to functionality on the Tivo S3 models and didn't realise that in so doing they knocked out a critical element of the data format also required in order for the Suggestions algorithm on our S1 Tivos to continue operating successfully.


----------



## RogerL

My Tivo has just turned back into a Tivo again instead of a normal PVR with a poor quality picture.

Great!


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> ...but I don't reckon that any code on our S1 Tivos was at fault since the program running on our S1 machines has not changed.


Whatever made you think I was being serious?  Did you not see the smiley at the end?


----------



## cpitchford

I know the UK market is a bit of a dead end for Tivo but thank you so much for the fix.

Like many on this forum have already asked, I would be really interested to know what it was and how it was fixed. I guess it could be commercial sensitive though and we may never know.. Either way, thanks guys!


----------



## mutant_matt2

I just noticed 10 suggestions were recorded yesterday, 3 so far today - horay!  

Many Thanks TiVo guys, one (small, subset) customer base re-enthused! 

So, how do we use this momentum to get TiVoHD into our British homes? (either officially, or semi-unofficially) 

Matt


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## hazydaze

Wow. Amazed. And grateful. Now that larger drive I bought from Mikerr can get some serious use. Thanks also, mikerr, your suggestion to fix my 'randomly' placed listings in 'now showing' also worked.

Tivo, you manage to be such a great company for customer service--incredible in a 'dormant' marketplace for you.

There are so many evangelists here waiting to tell people to rush out and buy new tivo's ?when? they launch. I would have thought the increased prevalence of freeview/freesat would possibly expand your market here. Let sky users eat cake.


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## ghstone

Can I add my thanks too;

We don't normally use suggestions, but other family members and friends who I have to support do, so I've been relaying messages from this forum to them.

I turned on suggestions on a couple of my systems last week just to see how things were going, and can happliy report that they are both recording all sorts of strange stuff based on our usual viewing habits. 

excellent work, now if we can just get TivoHD over here, lifev will be perfect - okay perhaps a slight overstatement, but you know what I mean

Graham


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## a_tivo_noob

nice one!  - noticed the Tivo was doing its 'own thing' today (and apparently it had tried to record suggestions this morning) - so checked 'suggestions' and shed loads there! So just came on here to confirm - super stuff!!

*I still standby my original 'whinge' that Tivo should have both informed customers that suggestions 'was' and 'wasnt' working by using the builtin 'Notifications' system though*


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## Nimbus

another vote of thanks here to


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## ptruman

Beaten to it I see 

I noticed last night the red light was on and wondered why t'missus had set TiVo to tape something - then noticed it was at the bottom of Now Playing - along with a bunch of other stuff!

Huzzah!


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## tonywalk

First I noticed was yesterday when I spotted one of my Tivos was recording something when it shouldn't.

After a couple of seconds it dawned on me and I got a little giddy. Had they fixed suggestions? I dived into the menu and lo-and-behold an absolute raft of stuff lined up to record! Whooohoooooo!!!!!!

So in Tivo style :up::up::up: to the guys over at Tivo who fixed it, to the guys who helped them test it, and to Mikerr for the replacement script. 

Cheers Guys.


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## SCOOBY.C

another thanks here, to all those who helped contibute to this recovery! :up:


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## bluel39

I am pleased the Tivo suggestions are again recording but the thing I like is the "Tivo Suggestions" page where it gives a list of programmes it thinks you might like.

I used to check this list now-and-again to see if I was missing anything.

However this page has not not changed, am I being impatient or do I need to reset "thumbs" and start again?

Has anyone else noticed this page updating?

Thanks


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## Pete77

bluel39 said:


> I am pleased the Tivo suggestions are again recording but the thing I like is the "Tivo Suggestions" page where it gives a list of programmes it thinks you might like.
> 
> I used to check this list now-and-again to see if I was missing anything.
> 
> However this page has not not changed, am I being impatient or do I need to reset "thumbs" and start again?


As soon as Tivo made the announcement of Suggestions coming back my "Tivo's Suggestions" page displayed a couple of Suggestions that I had just thumbed up manually. Up to that time it always told me my Tivo was new and I needed to thumb more things and be patient etc.

Then after forcing a manual call and waiting overnight I had 77 items in "Tivo's Suggestions" the next morning. These were the same kinds of programs as I used to get when Suggestions worked before and with no kids programs or radio programs etc. Then by this morning I had 98 Suggestions in Tivo's Suggestions. This is basically the number of Suggestions I used to have in Tivo's Suggestions when it was working properly.

So I can only suggest perhaps thumbing a couple of programs and forcing two or three manual daily calls and then waiting overnight and seeing if they return on your machine under Tivo's Suggestions.

I agree with you that it was the Tivo's Suggestions menu that I always found far more useful than any actual Suggestions recorded as Suggestions actually recorded by Tivo itself never lasted for long on my full up Tivo before being replaced by new ones. But I have discovered a lot of new programs that I wanted to set SPs for or one off recording for over time using Tivo's Suggestions.:up::up::up:


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## davisa

a_tivo_noob said:


> *I still standby my original 'whinge' that Tivo should have both informed customers that suggestions 'was' and 'wasnt' working by using the builtin 'Notifications' system though*


Agree.

Brilliant they've been fixed, but customer communication throughout this has been shockingly bad (ie: non-existent), unless you happen to frequent this forum.


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## Pete77

a_tivo_noob said:


> *I still standby my original 'whinge' that Tivo should have both informed customers that suggestions 'was' and 'wasnt' working by using the builtin 'Notifications' system though*


I think it has been established that the Tivo S1 message system is in fact run by an automated script on the machine and all it does is advise you of changes in channel numbers and channel additions and deletions.

Nonetheless Tivo should have had current address details for all its monthly paying UK customers and also an address that might or might not be current for its Lifetime customers so it could have written to us in the post.

Their customer service operator (Sky) seems to have no trouble with issuing their own postal communications.


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## 6022tivo

Thanks and a Thumbs up from me for the fix..


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## bigwold

ptruman said:


> I noticed last night the red light was on and wondered why t'missus had set TiVo to tape something


 but I think I know what you mean


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## DanielB

All well with my TiVo, tell me is it me or are others seeing more suggestions than before suggestions stopped.


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## Emmzi

back and working perfectly. it has been keeping me all sorts of stuff while I've been away. hoorah!


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## RWILTS

:up::up::up:


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## kitschcamp

DanielB said:


> All well with my TiVo, tell me is it me or are others seeing more suggestions than before suggestions stopped.


Yeah, I thought the same - there do seem to be more than for quite some time.


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## DanielB

kitschcamp said:


> Yeah, I thought the same - there do seem to be more than for quite some time.


I wonder if this is because I have the suggs running as well??


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## kitschcamp

Not in my case. I turned that off once it started doing "real" suggestions.


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## riggers

I also think there are more suggestions than I've had for years and even more relevant then before. Haven't installed Suggs suggestions so can't be that. Perhaps the suggestions algorithm was faulty for ages.

Thanks to everyone at Tivo for their work in sorting it out.


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## DanielB

I have stopped suggs running. (But I am hanging on to the code for now). 

So that way I know all the suggestions were TiVo generated. 

Like several people say it would be nice to know details of why it was broken, and what the fix was if this is not highly confidential.


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## DanielB

Also another point if this is now working presumably TiVo has worked out a way of bringing the S1 TiVo back into some sort of common code base, does this mean or suggest that now it would be even easier than before to offer us a S2 or S3 Tivo. Maybe this exercise has shown that there would be many who would buy one.


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## 6022tivo

I bet you guys who do the 120GB + upgrades are glad tivo pushed this on the server side rather than the box with a SW update....
Just imagine if they had done a SW update with the same kernal designed for the S1 boxes....


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## Simonm

Woohoo! I'm so glad this is working again - Tivo just wasn't the same for me without all those Cold Case Files and Law & Order episodes!

Thanks to everyone that helped!


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## cwaring

Simonm said:


> Woohoo! I'm so glad this is working again - Tivo just wasn't the same for me without all those Cold Case Files and Law & Order episodes!


You couldn't have used a SP or a WL?


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## Royalflush

Great news, thanks for persevering :up::up::up:


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## tonywalk

cwaring said:


> You couldn't have used a SP or a WL?


Probably has quite a full box and doesn't want mainstream recordings bumping off for "watch it when nothing else is on" episodes.

If only you could set the priority of WLs to "suggestion" level. I'd have quite a few of them. I'll now wait for someone to tell me how to do it


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## cwaring

tonywalk said:


> Probably has quite a full box and doesn't want mainstream recordings bumping off for "watch it when nothing else is on" episodes.


Ah. Okay. Fairy snuff.



> If only you could set the priority of WLs to "suggestion" level. I'd have quite a few of them. I'll now wait for someone to tell me how to do it


Won't be long now


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## stevencarpenter

Wanted to add my thanks to the guys who applied a fix and gave me back the TiVo of old, was frustrated the box had morphed into a bland PVR. 

Its such a shame there is no new HD PVR to replace my current unit. I now have a Humax Freesat PVR and its not too bad, sadly nothing but nothing (Sky+, Virgin, BT and Freesat, tried 'em all, and some others not yet launched) are close enough that were a new TiVo became available in the UK I'd be the first in the shop biting everyone else's arm off to buy it.

Its great we have the dedication to find a fix in the background servers, I'd really appreciate it if the same level of dedication could occur in the marketing department to get us a new unit for the UK.

In particular I'm at a loss as to why a small scale operation could not customise a small regular quantity of units from the USA to feed the clear demand that exists in the UK.

Anyway, regardless of the observations its nice to see my Tivo back to working order. Cheers.


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## Suds

I upgraded to a Sky+ box just in the last week or so - simply because my original Sky box went kaput and it was cheaper to upgrade to Sky+, it was absolutely not as a TiVo replacement wanabee.

I hadn't checked the forums for a few days either so was surprised when I saw a collection of suggestions appearing on my Now Showing list.

:up: A big thank you to TiVo for this fix - and not because I particularly rely on suggestions but because it shows a commitment to us - customers, and I think that's sadly quite rare nowadays, so well done guys.

Now, I just need to go order a new HD as I think the shock of having suggestions back and Sky+ all at once has pushed my current HD over the edge into imminent failure territory - but I don't mind paying for it now


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## bryl

I never thought I'd miss 'suggestions' until they went. Great to see them back. Thanks to everyone involved in sorting this.


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## niglom

Mine has started to work again!


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## pj280167

Many thanks from our household for fixing the suggestions problem. We missed it greatly.


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## DeadKenny

Many thanks also:up:. I'm pleasantly surprised as I didn't expect this to happen.

My TiVo is now back to it's former glory


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## Pete77

DeadKenny said:


> Many thanks also:up:. I'm pleasantly surprised as I didn't expect this to happen.


Things are certainly looking a great deal better than at the time of this thread only a few months ago:-

www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=404876

So perhaps next month the UK Freesat HD Tivo will finally be announced


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## DeadKenny

Pete77 said:


> So perhaps next month the UK Freesat HD Tivo will finally be announced


One thing at a time 

Doesn't really interest me though now unless Freesat can significantly increase their HD output. Sky HD is the only decent HD option for content presently as far as I'm concerned (based on the kind of stuff I want to watch).


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## Pete77

DeadKenny said:


> Doesn't really interest me though now unless Freesat can significantly increase their HD output. Sky HD is the only decent HD option for content presently as far as I'm concerned (based on the kind of stuff I want to watch).


BBC/ITV Freesat will be ok for those of us who don't like paying subs when Channel 4 HD finally manages to unencrypt itself. Until that happens there seems no point in rushing out to get it.


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## Pete77

mikerr said:


> *Tivo suggestions* are days ahead, but *only ever 2-3 per day* - suggs will fill in the gaps in the schedule


Here are my Tivo Scheduled Suggestions (from Tivoweb 1.9.4) for this Saturday 14th Feb and Sunday 15th Feb. I am not running Suggs:-


> Sat	14th Feb	04:00	TRAVEL	Globe Trekker	Great Journeys: Road Warriors	60	Explicit 1 255
> Sat	14th Feb	07:00	ROCKWLD	ROCKWORLD.TV	No Episode Title	240	Predicted 1 35
> Sat	14th Feb	12:30	BBCR4FM	The News Quiz	No Episode Title	27	Predicted 1 56
> Sat	14th Feb	13:00	BBC1LDN	Horse Racing	Ascot and Haydock	90	Explicit 1 255
> Sat	14th Feb	17:00	TRAVEL	Travel Today	February	30	Predicted 1 156
> Sat	14th Feb	18:00	CNNEU	Eco Solutions	No Episode Title	30	Predicted 2 11
> Sat	14th Feb	18:30	POPTV	Sonic Underground	No Episode Title	30	Predicted 1 22
> Sat	14th Feb	19:00	BBCR7	Unearthing Mysteries	The Drinking Cult	30	Explicit 2 255
> Sat	14th Feb	23:00	TRAVP1	Globe Trekker	Paris 2	60	Explicit 1 255
> Sun	15th Feb	02:25	BBC4	Iran and Britain	Not an Episode	60	Predicted 2 150
> Sun	15th Feb	06:05	BBCR4FM	Something Understood	Mysticism and Resistance	30	Predicted 1 129
> Sun	15th Feb	06:45	CHITV	Dream Street	Surprise, Surprise	15	Predicted 1 22
> Sun	15th Feb	07:25	ITV4	PokÃ©mon: Diamond & Pearl	No Episode Title	30	Predicted 1 72
> Sun	15th Feb	09:00	BBC1LDN	The Andrew Marr Show	No Episode Title	60	Explicit 1 255
> Sun	15th Feb	10:00	FIVE	Cheetah Man	Not an Episode	60	Predicted 2 150
> Sun	15th Feb	13:00	BBC2	Escape to the Country	Rotherham to North Nottinghamshire	60	Explicit 2 255
> Sun	15th Feb	14:30	ITV4P1	Police, Camera, Action!	Off to the Crushers	30	Explicit 1 255
> Sun	15th Feb	15:30	MORE4	Location, Location, Location	No Episode Title	30	Explicit 1 255
> Sun	15th Feb	17:00	BIOG	Still Looking for Love	Not an Episode	60	Predicted 2 159
> Sun	15th Feb	22:00	MORE4	The World's Tallest Woman and Me	Not an Episode	65	Predicted 2 149
> Sun	15th Feb	23:40	MORE4	The IT Crowd	The Work Outing	35	Predicted 1 14


So it seems your claim that Tivo only ever schedules two or three Suggestions per day is not correct. Perhaps you should try thumbing as many Tivo series as I have managed to thumb during the last 6+ years.


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## TiVoJerry

Pete77 said:


> Here are my Tivo Scheduled Suggestions (from Tivoweb 1.9.4) for this Saturday 14th Feb and Sunday 15th Feb. I am not running Suggs:-
> 
> So it seems your claim that Tivo only ever schedules two or three Suggestions per day is not correct. Perhaps you should try thumbing as many Tivo series as I have managed to thumb during the last 6+ years.


If you don't use thumb ratings, you should try using them a little more but don't go overboard. I've seen cases where people continue to pull up long lists (search by title starting at "1") and then rating every single program in the list, doing so over the course of years. Doing this on a regular basis can fill up the database and overwhelm the hardware. 1k - 5k of thumbs shouldn't be a problem, but I've seen people with 14k worth of thumbs.

This problem takes longer to develop if your lineup doesn't have that many channels. Increase the lineup size, such as a U.S. satellite lineup combined with a cable lineup, and it can take fewer thumbs to run into.

Seems scarey, but it's not. If this happens, calls will fails for S03 (fail to load, index, etc). There are other, more common, reasons for S03 to show up, requiring a Kickstart57 (MFS check) to resolve, if possible. If the box recovers from KS57 but still fails S03, you'll have to clear your thumb ratings.


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## Pete77

TiVoJerry said:


> If you don't use thumb ratings, you should try using them a little more but don't go overboard. Doing this on a regular basis can fill up the database and overwhelm the hardware. 1k - 5k of thumbs shouldn't be a problem, but I've seen people with 14k worth of thumbs


Wow and I thought I was an enthusiastic user of Thumbs on my Tivo. But then again I am a one person household so in a five person household a lot more stuff might get thumbed (clearly in conflicting ways without the Tivo having individual user accounts for thumbs and Suggestions for each household member)

I currently have Thumbs on my Tivo S1 for 2,202 series here (after pasting the data in to a spreadsheet from TivoWebPlus 2.1) at the present time and this has accumulated over the last six years (including a hard drive replacement to 2 x 250Gb drives where the old thumbs data and recordings were carried across). So I have a way to go yet before I overwhem my Tivo's Suggestions engine capacity it appears.

However this number of thumbs has already overwhelmed Ljay's (www.ljay.org.uk) thumbs editing module in UI/Preferences under TivoWeb 1.9.4. But the thumbs editing module under System Preferences in TivoWebPlus 2.1 still copes with that many thumbs though. However editing the thumbs of individual series quickly is a lot slower and more cumbersome than the method provided by Ljay in TivoWeb 1.9.4.

By the way its great to have this kind of input to a Tivo UK thread from a member of staff in Alviso. It really makes us UK Tivo users feel that you guys in California do care about us after all since we know that the official support channel via Sky does not and instead actively wishes that we would buy their rival but substantially inferior PVR solution.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Here are my Tivo Scheduled Suggestions (from Tivoweb 1.9.4) for this Saturday 14th Feb and Sunday 15th Feb. I am not running Suggs:-
> 
> So it seems your claim that Tivo only ever schedules two or three Suggestions per day is not correct. Perhaps you should try thumbing as many Tivo series as I have managed to thumb during the last 6+ years.


Alternatively, maybe Pete should try scheduling some recordings - looks like his TiVo is idle nearly 24/7!


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Alternatively, maybe Pete should try scheduling some recordings - looks like his TiVo is idle nearly 24/7!


The main terrestrial channels (still the main source of new non sport programming) only show trash tv at the weekend and that is why my Suggestions increase so much at that time. On some weekdays in the next week I only have three or four Suggestions due to record due to recording more actual tv programs.

Also I only actually watch an hour or two of tv a day at most these days due to spending most of my other free time on the internet so I am actually fairly selective about what I actually record and watch.


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## Pete77

I only have 48 Suggestions this morning on my Tivo instead of the 70 to 90 it was providing since Suggestions restarted.

Has anyone else noticed a similar decline in the number of Suggestions provided by their Tivo in the last few days?


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## steveroe

No - I'm getting a really nice mix of stuff, it seems to be working better now than before it broke.


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## Pete77

steveroe said:


> No - I'm getting a really nice mix of stuff, it seems to be working better now than before it broke.


I used the Thumbs module under Preferences in TivoWebPlus 2.1.0 (the equivalent add on module by LJ in Tivoweb 1.9.4 now seems to crash due to the number of thumbs I have) to edit out a few of my more arbitrary high and low thumbs ratings a few days ago and also to give -1 thumbs to any kids tv programs like Captain Scarlet that I may have unwisely thumbed up in the past (causing kids tv to then be recorded as Suggestions). I also changed to zero any radio programs I had previously given positive thumbs to as I do not appreciate radio shows being recorded as Suggestions (especially not now that I have a Reciva internet radio that can play all the Iplayer stuff from the last 7 days),

However I didn't change more than 50 thumbs ratings out of over 1,000 actual thumbs I have given (the other several hundred other thumbs ratings shown in the TivoWebPlus module are in fact ones implied by Tivo as programs I would have thumbed and I have not thumbed them myself) so I am surprised that the resulting reduction in Suggestions would be this drastic.

Everything that is showing as a Suggestion is fine but the total number of Suggestions has nearly halved in only a few days.


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## ericd121

Before the Great Suggestions Draught, the number of Suggestions used to regularly wax and wane.

Now they are back, I've noticed they again wax and wane.

On my Tivo1, there was only a pageful; this has since expanded.

As long as there's enough to use as a free space indicator, I'm happy.


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## Pete77

ericd121 said:


> Before the Great Suggestions Draught, the number of Suggestions used to regularly wax and wane.
> 
> Now they are back, I've noticed they again wax and wane.


Yes that is true about them always waxing and waning and today is daily call day for the new week's worth of terrestrial channels EPG data. So I suppose Suggestions can be expected to be at their minimum before that new week's worth of terestrial channel data is processed in.



> As long as there's enough to use as a free space indicator, I'm happy.


I thought you had perhaps long since deserted us for one of the dark side products like Sky HD, BBC/ITV Freesat or Windows MCE Eric. Its good to hear you still have more than one Tivo running.:up:

Of course some some who have long since deserted their Tivo like TCM and Automan still return here for the pure sport of it.


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## djb2002

I'm glad the problem got fixed ! 

I have a feeling though that if the Series 1 wasn't experiencing the same issue in the US, then this wouldn't have been fixed.....

Thanks
Daniel


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## Pete77

djb2002 said:


> I have a feeling though that if the Series 1 wasn't experiencing the same issue in the US, then this wouldn't have been fixed.....


But on the other hand when Tivo found the point of failure (which they are too shame faced to tell us any more about so it was clearly something rather elementary) at least they did roll out the fix for both UK and US S1 machines, even though that forced them to admit to their earlier error in diganosis regarding the cause of the problem on the UK Series 1 machines.

There is a counter school of thought to your argument that only the US machine owners persuaded them to take action in that the US Series 1 owners are cussedly still using old machinery that they can easily upgrade if they want to whereas we UK S1 owners are still running them purely because we have to as Tivo has left us with no other better option for their replacement.:down:


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## Pete77

Back up to 56 Suggestions here today after the weekly terrestrial channels data refresh.

Also whilst ozsat says that Suggestions are generated/refreshed overnight that must only refer to the Suggestions database on the Tivo from which the Suggestions algorithm then runs as the actual Suggestions listed in Tivo's Suggestions clearly change on the fly as you change the thumbs ratings of any items currently in the Tivo Suggestions list.

However I suspect the smaller number of Scheduled Suggestions are only produced during the daily database update and reindexing run.


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## afrokiwi

Might just be me being a little paranoid but I have only 6 suggestions in my TiVo &#8230;.. is it just me?


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## cwaring

They do seem to come and go, don't they. I didn't have any at all yesterday.


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## riggers

I currently have over 80 suggestions listed. Thursday I had none. 

Most definitely erratic but I'm not complaining.


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## Pete77

afrokiwi said:


> Might just be me being a little paranoid but I have only 6 suggestions in my TiVo .. is it just me?


If you are talking about Tivo's Suggestions accessed from Pick Programs To Record on the Tivo I currently have 101 in the list. If you are talking about Scheduled Suggestions (viewable either only on Tivoweb or through some complicated code sequence on the Tivo after enabling Backdoors) I only currently have one shown because my Tivo drive is rather full up and I need to delete some Keep Until I Delete recordings on it in order to allow more Suggestions to be scheduled to record.

Suggestions are most numerous after the weekly data refresh of the five main terrestrial channels on Saturday/Sunday and decline in number during the week as the amount of future data for the five main terrestrial channels reduces.

I find Suggestions are currently working better than they have ever been and if I use my Daily Mail email to actively give one thumbs down to any new series that startup that Tivo wrongly predicts I might like then I can keep Suggestions very relevant indeed.


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## woldsweather

Pete77 said:


> If you are talking about Tivo's Suggestions accessed from Pick Programs To Record on the Tivo I currently have 101 in the list. If you are talking about Scheduled Suggestions (viewable either only on Tivoweb or through some complicated code sequence on the Tivo after enabling Backdoors) I only currently have one shown because my Tivo drive is rather full up and I need to delete some Keep Until I Delete recordings on it in order to allow more Suggestions to be scheduled to record.
> 
> Suggestions are most numerous after the weekly data refresh of the five main terrestrial channels on Saturday/Sunday and decline in number during the week as the amount of future data for the five main terrestrial channels reduces.
> 
> I find Suggestions are currently working better than they have ever been and if I use my Daily Mail email to actively give one thumbs down to any new series that startup that Tivo wrongly predicts I might like then I can keep Suggestions very relevant indeed.


I've had my TiVo 5 or 6 years and never looked at suggestions or understood what the thumbs were for - Am I missing out?


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## cwaring

Maybe, maybe not. It depends how much TV you currently watch and if you have the time to watch any more.

Basically, a :up: means you like show and a :down: means you don't.

When you :up: a show, Tivo will then 'suggest' other programmes you might like on the basis of your thumbs data. A show is automatically :up: when you first select it to record, unless you :down: it first.

Full details in the User Manual.


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