# Let the CES RumorMongering begin!



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Maybe we need a thread for the wild and not so wild rumors flying about before the consumer electronics show.

Here's one story today- Tivo partnering with DirecTv and Dish to provide portable video content.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/12/28/cesrumor_dvr_partnership_mobilemedia/

I can see them maybe agree on standards making it easier to get stuff onto a Portable device from their own proprietary dvrs, but would you call this partnering? Whatever. I checked around and I don't see this rumor on other web sites. AVSforum just points to the same article.

Anyone see this one, or read of other rumors to add to the heap?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Maybe they got it all fouled up from the story on DaveZatz's site-

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2005-12/directv-goes-mobile/

Which only mentions that direcTv will announce a new partnership so they can do portable video too, not that there is any sort of broader partnership between the satellite carriers and Tivo. I suppose the folks at tgdaily get paid more to write than to read though.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Maybe they got it all fouled up from the story on DaveZatz's site


Yes ... it looks like someone grossly misunderstood DaveZatz's use of the term "join".


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Heh, I was thinking the same thing. Dave reported that DirecTV will be 'joining' Dish and TiVo in offering a mobile solution. He meant just that they'd be joining the market, not that there would be a partnership. Then PVRWire picked up the store from him. I suspect those are the 'several' sites.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

I'm guessing the confusion comes from the following in Dave's article:



> DirecTV is joining TiVo and Dish in the portable media market. Next week theyll be announcing a new partnership as part of this mobile content initiative.


It should be obvious that the partnership will not be with TiVo or Dish, but I could see how someone might misunderstand.


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## raianoat (Jan 27, 2004)

Isn't it great how other people repost content without fully understanding what somebody is trying to say .


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Wow, I didn't even stop to think my poor writing initiated that rumor. Doh! I guess this is one of those cases where it's OK the site didn't credit me with the info. 

I assume the parternetship will be similar to Dish/Archos or TiVo/Intel VIIV... definitely not DISH/DirecTV/TiVo - ha! CES should be real interesting next week on many levels. 

(I'm thinking I'll have more fun sitting back and reading the coverage than immersing myself in the frantic data overload. I was naive when I registered and didn't think that my email and cell phone number would be provided to each of the 2500 vendors - I've been inundated with product announcements and meeting requests via email AND phone.)


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Dave:

Yeah, I learned that the hard way two years ago. 

J


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## JoeBarbs (Dec 1, 2003)

I am thinking we are going to be hearing a lot about two things and two things only. 

1) Cable Card HD TiVo

2) iPod/PSP functionality


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

JoeBarbs said:


> I am thinking we are going to be hearing a lot about two things and two things only.
> 
> 1) Cable Card HD TiVo
> 2) iPod/PSP functionality


What we don't hear will be equally telling. 

I'd like to know more about the Comcast initiative, but that may be Comcast's baby to unveil. I'd like to find out if these next gen TiVo's are going to have Bluray drives. Are S2 devices going to get the ethernet support the Chinese boxes have? What sort of VOD is in the works?

The iPod/PSP software will probably get a lot of press, but from my perspective it isn't a huge deal and any sort of conversion features through TiVo Desktop are overdue. The'll probably have the new adapter on display... again not a huge deal, but pretty interesting to see hardware other than TiVo boxes being produced, packaged, and sold.

The anti-TiVo news also interests me... what sort of portable does DTV have in the works?? And is Apple (after CES at MacWorld) really announcing some sort of media center PC (very possible - a good way to sell more shows and then movies) and will it offer PVR features (doubt it).

Anyone else catch the stock story from yesterday? Some firm changed their rating from Hold to Sell saying nothing in 2006 excites them. Weird, guess they didn't hear about China, Comcast, and HD. (Yes, I know stock talk is banned, that's why I'm being brief.)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

The iPod/PSP compatability is part of a larger TiVo desktop initiative. Don't forget the watermarking and later in the year Mac compatibility.


also here is hoping rocketboom is just a teaser and they have more video download partnerships (diggination anyone) to announce at CES.




PS - I love how the internet spawns these reports. Everybody in a rush and no one looks to even find two independent sources anymore to make sure they read the first one right.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> The iPod/PSP compatability is part of a larger TiVo desktop initiative. Don't forget the watermarking and later in the year Mac compatibility.


 The watermarking IS interesting... at least to a dozen of us on the board.  I wonder if that gets communicated at CES? If not to the press, to the NBCs of the world who might want to sue?



> PS - I love how the internet spawns these reports. Everybody in a rush and no one looks to even find two independent sources anymore to make sure they read the first one right.


I guess since I've reported legit stuff before, some sites are more likely to take me at face value these days? Granted, I've never heard of TGDaily before but they are crawled by Googles News or Yahoo News so it might continue to spread. (Again, good thing they didn't give me credit!) The silly thing is, my secret source was one of those CES spam emailings - theoreticly quite a few people got the same message (at least one Engadget writer I know also got it) and could confirm or reject as neeed. Anyhow, I changed a few words on my original post for the sake of clarity but there's no turning back. Ah well!

EDIT: Looks like PVRWire misunderstood first. What I wrote made perfect sense to me!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

davezatz said:


> The watermarking IS interesting... at least to a dozen of us on the board.  I wonder if that gets communicated at CES? If not to the press, to the NBCs of the world who might want to sue?


wondering of the watermarking is a way to drop the DRM or is a response to how easy it is to break the DRM on a .tivo file? and what kind of DRM will be done on a Mac ? Will it just be a quicktime plugin and thus even easier to "break" since with quicktime you can just dump it to an mpeg without needing to add in any extra software. Will this mean that Macs get predominance at handling TiVo video?

But the Cable Card TiVo - if they show a working model complete with ethernet - will be such a big deal that other things take a small seat to the side. Of course portbale Video players can generate some good buzz, I would expect multiple companies to be reporting on that again. Be nice to hear Intel or AMD has a chipset that is actually going to be used in marketable devices


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

davezatz said:


> The watermarking IS interesting... at least to a dozen of us on the board.  I wonder if that gets communicated at CES? If not to the press, to the NBCs of the world who might want to sue?
> 
> I guess since I've reported legit stuff before, some sites are more likely to take me at face value these days? Granted, I've never heard of TGDaily before but they are crawled by Googles News or Yahoo News so it might continue to spread. (Again, good thing they didn't give me credit!) The silly thing is, my secret source was one of those CES spam emailings - theoreticly quite a few people got the same message (at least one Engadget writer I know also got it) and could confirm or reject as neeed. Anyhow, I changed a few words on my original post for the sake of clarity but there's no turning back. Ah well!
> 
> EDIT: Looks like PVRWire misunderstood first. What I wrote made perfect sense to me!


TGDaily is part of TomsHardware which is a very popular hardware review and news site. I have been a frequent visitor of it for many years. I am quite surprised that they didn't quote you on their article as it's very much out of the norm for them. Anyway they are usually a pretty good site.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Kanyon71 said:


> TGDaily is part of TomsHardware which is a very popular hardware review and news site. I have been a frequent visitor of it for many years. I am quite surprised that they didn't quote you on their article as it's very much out of the norm for them. Anyway they are usually a pretty good site.


Ah... I know Tom's Hardware - good stuff! Maybe they saw it elsewhere or maybe because the details were sketchy they didn't say which web sites. I know PVRWire and Engadget ran with it too... there could be others. Either way, I prefer not to be mentioned in connection with misinformation.  I'm not perfect but I try to get it right and cite other sites when applicable.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

davezatz said:


> (I'm thinking I'll have more fun sitting back and reading the coverage than immersing myself in the frantic data overload. I was naive when I registered and didn't think that my email and cell phone number would be provided to each of the 2500 vendors - I've been inundated with product announcements and meeting requests via email AND phone.)


Odd - no phone calls for me. I get plenty of email, but I setup a dedicated email address so it all stays in its own box.

So, does that mean you're going or not?


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> PS - I love how the internet spawns these reports. Everybody in a rush and no one looks to even find two independent sources anymore to make sure they read the first one right.


I always try to take things back to a primary source. Whenever I see a report on another blog, even those I trust, I look for them to link to the source and/or I search for other sources that coroborate the information. If anything is shaky I'll either not repeat it in TiVo Lovers, or I'll qualify it as a rumor. I've seen too many 'facts' spread around over the years.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

megazone said:


> Odd - no phone calls for me. I get plenty of email, but I setup a dedicated email address so it all stays in its own box.
> 
> So, does that mean you're going or not?


Normally I don't answer my phone when I don't recognize the numbers, but one was NYC and figured it was the Engadget guys. Turns out Samsung wants show me some stuff at CES... unless they're showing me a LCD HDTV that I can take home, I'm not so interested.  Netgear sent me an invite to a party in the private House of Blues nightclub on the top of Mandalay Bay which was amusing. Hanging out with the Netgear executive staff doesn't sound very stimulating though the view looks impressive and who am I to turn down free food/drinks.

I'm most likely not going at this point. If I went with Engadget I'd be "working" the whole thing, and I waited too long to book a hotel on my dime. Also I used most of my work leave relocating my mom - her car was totalled (she should get the insurance check next week) and she had to move into a hotel for a few weeks followed by another apartment after Wilma thrashed her part of South Florida. So at the moment I have 4.91 hours of leave and get 6.67 more 1/1/06 which is close enough to the 16 hours I'll need. If a great deal shows up on Priceline or somewhere it's still possible, though unlikely. I'm thinking I'll have more fun reading about it all rather than dealing with the feeding frenzy myself. (I do have a new camera, the Panasonic Lumix FX9, with builtin image stablization that I'm looking forward to trying out though...)

I think Alex of TiVoBlog is going. Haven't heard anything from PVRWire or PVRBlog and assume they aren't covering it in person. So will TiVoLovers be represented?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

megazone said:


> I always try to take things back to a primary source. Whenever I see a report on another blog, even those I trust, I look for them to link to the source and/or I search for other sources that coroborate the information. If anything is shaky I'll either not repeat it in TiVo Lovers, or I'll qualify it as a rumor. I've seen too many 'facts' spread around over the years.


Yes, that is the right way to do it and I think you and Dave are usually looking more for solid info or interesting rumor than just the outright scoop so should not have been so all inclusive. I also am surprised that Tom's Guide daily would have jumped on such an odd "idea" of TiVo and DirectTV entering an agreement on portable Video.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

davezatz said:


> I think Alex of TiVoBlog is going. Haven't heard anything from PVRWire or PVRBlog and assume they aren't covering it in person. So will TiVoLovers be represented?


Yeah, this'll be my 3rd year going to CES. The first year I was ill-prepared and overwhelmed. Last year went more smoothly.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Dave, if you find a good price on a strip hotel let me know.

I always go to CES, and i was going to stay with Mr Purple, but then my two other IT work mates decided to go, which is very cool, but they needed a room, and it was by far too late.

Everything is sold out, or $400-$600 bucks a night. Seeing Excalibur at $475 for a Thursday night is pretty funny.

We're staying way off the strip for $200 a night, which is ok with me, but it would be easier to find something closer.

-smak-


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ..... But the Cable Card TiVo - if they show a working model complete with ethernet - will be such a big deal that other things take a small seat to the side. .....


As far as I'm concerned, all of the other things could take a ride in the trunk (and stay there) if the HD dual tuner TiVo shows itself. Can you guess what I wanted for Christmas *2004*?


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

You know they showed a working dual-tuner CableCARD box, with integrated 10/100 Ethernet, at CES2005! They had two in the booth - one rotating under glass, and one running on the other side of the room. It had 2 CC1.0 slots, since that's all that existed at the time. I, and others, posted pictures back in January. ;-)

Remember, just showing a box at CES, working or not, doesn't always mean something is about to ship. For the previous 2 years they also had a standalone ATSC TiVo reference design box.


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## TK421 (Feb 25, 2002)

megazone said:


> You know they showed a working dual-tuner CableCARD box, with integrated 10/100 Ethernet, at CES2005! They had two in the booth - one rotating under glass, and one running on the other side of the room. It had 2 CC1.0 slots, since that's all that existed at the time. I, and others, posted pictures back in January. ;-)
> 
> Remember, just showing a box at CES, working or not, doesn't always mean something is about to ship. For the previous 2 years they also had a standalone ATSC TiVo reference design box.


Yup...I think for most people "working model" == deal with a manufacturer to produce and target release timeframe.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

megazone said:


> You know they showed a working dual-tuner CableCARD box, with integrated 10/100 Ethernet, at CES2005! They had two in the booth - one rotating under glass, and one running on the other side of the room. It had 2 CC1.0 slots, since that's all that existed at the time. I, and others, posted pictures back in January. ;-)
> 
> Remember, just showing a box at CES, working or not, doesn't always mean something is about to ship. For the previous 2 years they also had a standalone ATSC TiVo reference design box.


I believe TiVo also hinted that that box wasn't really viable because of the cost. Plus, they didn't want to have to invest in 2 cable card 1.0 slots since they will be outdated with multistream ones eventually.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

...and I would HAVE to believe nest week at CES they will announce ship dates on this unit. I don't think we would stand for anything less after being teased with it since one year ago.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> ...and I would HAVE to believe nest week at CES they will announce ship dates on this unit. I don't think we would stand for anything less after being teased with it since one year ago.


Actually, I very much doubt it. At best there will be a range, like 'second half of the year', 'third quarter' or 'fall'. We know it isn't going to be before mid-year at best, and when products are that far out too much can change so companies tend to give broad ranges which will narrow as the release draws closer. Better to give a wide range and target the start of the range than to give a narrow range and then miss it and have to deal with the 'missed date' press.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Yeah, I agree. That's actually what I meant, not a specific date, but a narrower range than "2006". Pony has already said that, as they did one year ago at CES.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TK421 said:


> Yup...I think for most people "working model" == deal with a manufacturer to produce and target release timeframe.


Yup - last year Humax showed off a 26" LCD TV with TiVo built-in. Looked sweet. But they said they were looking for hardware manufacturers (and who knows the extent of their relationship/licensing with TiVo) and the unit hasn't shown up yet. Sure would have made a nice bedroom TV!

(There are current rumblings it will make a reappearance - not sure if it will be running some other DVR software or TiVo stuff. Maybe we'll learn more next week!)


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Humax went further - they announced the model number of the TV and said it would be out in 2005 (more specific than that, but I'd have to look up my posts from January in TiVo Lovers for the details). And it just faded. the DRT2500 also never shipped AFAIK.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

I think we are going to see it hit the shelves just-in-time for holiday 2006...and given the slow rate at which TiVo introduces new products, I think we'll be lucky if it's out by then. I would love to be wrong about this.

Frankly, there isn't another product that TiVo could launch, at this point in time, that I would spend my $$ on....all this TTG, XM satellite (remember that one  ), Internet movies etc. are superfluous when the core product can't even record two channels. Please don't bore me with details of how hard/expensive it is. I am aware - _ sometimes _ 

I love TiVo, and I am not leaving, but I am finding it difficult to justify the monthly fees when it doesn't have the capability to do what I want it to do...

With that said, I hope they have at least one on display (and fully functional) at CES 

EDIT: I did think of one thing that TiVo could launch that would make me very happy; software for my Scientific Atlanta dual tuner HD DVR.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

davezatz said:


> Yup - last year Humax showed off a 26" LCD TV with TiVo built-in. Looked sweet. But they said they were looking for hardware manufacturers (and who knows the extent of their relationship/licensing with TiVo) and the unit hasn't shown up yet. Sure would have made a nice bedroom TV!
> 
> (There are current rumblings it will make a reappearance - not sure if it will be running some other DVR software or TiVo stuff. Maybe we'll learn more next week!)


I have always thought that this would be a great product. TV and the the ability to manipulate it - in one box. Could it be any simpler?

The one thing that would put it over the top would be a user replaceable hard drive. If Sony would incorporate this into their SXRD sets, I would be first in line 

When RB used to post on the boards, Panasonic introduced, or announced, a TV with Replay built in. I loved the idea then, and I still do. Of course the "Replay" part needs to be replaced by TiVo for it to be a good idea


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## VinceA (May 13, 2002)

DCIFRTHS said:


> EDIT: I did think of one thing that TiVo could launch that would make me very happy; software for my Scientific Atlanta dual tuner HD DVR.


Cablevision has so much invested in the software on the SAs that I doubt they'd go with TiVo software. I'd love to hear it also, though, since I'm also deep in CV territory.


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## Hew (Apr 18, 2004)

Read this off the TiVo/Yahoo message board:

"Wavestrength Market Report put out an email that TIVO would be getting big contracts after the first of the year with CBS, NBC and other cable providers. TIVO is allready working with Yahoo to run video clips and I guess maybe there could be some deals in the works like they are saying. Anybody on this board heard of anything along this line? "

Just a rumor?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

For that particular board, there is a strong profit motive for posting false or misleading info. 

I would think you will see the major networks get cozy with the heavyweight IPTV players first- Microsoft, AT&T (SBC), Apple, and to a lesser extent content vendors like Realnetworks. 

Inevitably, they are going to sell to everyone. Where they stick their toe in first has to do mostly with who they feel most comfortable with and who offers the most cash incentives.

I'm sure Tivo would love to announce something like free news channels and modest fee PPV downloads. I can see Micro$oft or AT&T trying to buy their way in but that is not Tivo's style. Tivo certainly has built up the infrastructure for selling such content into their existing and rapidly growing user base, as we have seen with the red trousers and Rocketboom tests.

Theoretically, the networks could download HD content to the CC HD Tivo, due to its rumored capability to support MPeg4 (yippee) playback.


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

You have to remember that the new ceo was pretty high up at NBC and is definately a networker, "get my boys on board", kinda guy, so I wouldn't be surprised if this particular rumor was true. 

Don't know much about the track record of wavestrength though.


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## Hew (Apr 18, 2004)

Plus, Tivo can download content right to your TV which can't be done by apple, yet. CBS and NBC could be looking for the best security and the most convinient way for consumers to recieve their content. TiVo and probably Microsoft could be on the top of the list. 

The CEO, is credited for signing up Comcast as a partner. So making more partnerships with people he knows, isn't out of the question.

If this is true, how much do you think they would charge for a show that would be kept in your box for 30 days, or a week? Hopefully less then 2 bucks which is what they charge over at iTunes to keep the show forever.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Yeah. Maybe there are people who want to own "That's just Raven" teeny bopper episodes forever. 

The more important question is when will the content industry will offer recent release blockbuster movies, or for that matter any blockbuster movies available on IP. Naturally they will shoot high first to gauge where the market is. But that will not be an indication of where the number finally winds up. 

Ultimately, what they want to know is what will consumers pay. And to answer that question, they would have to go to a platform that is there now, with trackable viewer statistics, option for narrow market testing (download only to a narrow group of users), and analysable demographics. As we know, these are all Tivo strengths, so there are good reasons to choose Tivo. But where the content folks' toe goes first really indicates nothing about platform dominance. I don't see why any of the content vendors would be inclined to lock themselves into one platform.

But it's pointless to guess where the Content guys go first- maybe it is all of the above since there are so many providers. 

Just as with the high definition disk format war, it's not a technology announcement but announcements from the content folks that will decide many questions concerning IPTV. As unpopular as it is on this board, I favour advertising over PayPerEpisode. Hopefully they do go with Tivo so that they will continue with the advertising funded based "free" model.

"Not Apple- yet?" - Putting an intel cpu in a Mac Mini to play Mpeg4 purchased from iTunes is not a big deal for apple. Heck- they could repackage the Mini and do IPTV now if they were inclined to exclude HD content. But with most users suffering from inadequate bandwidth, IPTV is still in an augmentation role- not really a primary source and without any visible cablelabs testing, Apple doesn't look like they are on the map for an all in one device. It is also not clear that they will want to foreclose iTMS business to do it.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

smak said:


> Dave, if you find a good price on a strip hotel let me know.
> ...
> We're staying way off the strip for $200 a night, which is ok with me, but it would be easier to find something closer.
> 
> -smak-


If you're willing to stay further from the strip and will have a car, may I suggest http://www.primmvalleyresorts.com/? I stayed at Buffalo Bill's for CES 05 and it was fine. I've reserved my rooms already but I'm unsure if I'm going or not still. The room rate varies depending on the night. It ranges from $44.95 - $89.95/night depending on the night during CES time.

It's a very easy highway drive (~50 min 1 way I think) to the Strip. I just drove in, parked at one of the hotels (I think Bellagio) and took the CES shuttle.

Back to the rumor mongering, I seriously doubt that Tivo would partner w/Dish given the lawsuit going on between Tivo and E*. Besides, E* was showing their portable video solution last year and now is selling it (http://www.pocketdish.com/)... but I don't know of a single person who has one.

I REALLY hope that DirecTV and Tivo decide to resurrect their partnership.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

If I go, I'll want to pay to stay on the strip instead of spending two hours a day in the car since my schedule is tight... not to mention the addition car rental expense (is parking free at the casinos?). Also when we visited Las Vegas about 1.5 years ago the line at the car rental place itself took an hour or so which pissed me off (we ended up taking a cab to the strip and skipped the Hoover Dam as a side trip that time).

FYI smak: Circus Circus has some sort of low rise "Motor Lodge" a block behind their main casino. It's down to $173/nt on Orbitz which is probably 200% more than they normally charge but 50% less than most other stuff at this point.. I'm still watching and waiting and debating.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

davezatz said:


> FYI smak: Circus Circus has some sort of low rise "Motor Lodge" a block behind their main casino. It's down to $173/nt on Orbitz which is probably 200% more than they normally charge but 50% less than most other stuff at this point.. I'm still watching and waiting and debating.


That's actually not a bad way to go. They are older buildings (but how much time are you going to spend in your room anyway?  ), but heavily planted grounds (i.e. nice) and pretty secluded. And CC has shuttles to the convention center, as do all the Hotels.

And yes, parking is free in Vegas. I know of no place that charges for parking - would be suicide when none of your competitors do. I was quite spoiled growing up in Vegas, and now living near and visiting cities back east. It was quite a shock where not only do you have to pay (often upwards of $20 a day or more!), but there is not enough parking even if you do decide to pay!

Wish I could figure out a way to justify a trip this year, should be a great show!


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

davezatz said:


> If I go, I'll want to pay to stay on the strip instead of spending two hours a day in the car since my schedule is tight... not to mention the addition car rental expense (is parking free at the casinos?). Also when we visited Las Vegas about 1.5 years ago the line at the car rental place itself took an hour or so which pissed me off (we ended up taking a cab to the strip and skipped the Hoover Dam as a side trip that time).
> 
> FYI smak: Circus Circus has some sort of low rise "Motor Lodge" a block behind their main casino. It's down to $173/nt on Orbitz which is probably 200% more than they normally charge but 50% less than most other stuff at this point.. I'm still watching and waiting and debating.


Yes, parking is free at casinos. I know what you mean about tight schedule, however, the rental car + Primm hotel will still cost you <$173/night.

For me, if I go, I'll be driving (alone from San Jose  ), so I don't need a rental.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Well, Silverton has a nice poker room, so unless something just as cheap and on the strip comes out, we'll probably stay there.

Looks like the Circus Circus room is gone.

-smak-


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

You think there will be any announcement with Tivo the upcoming Yahoo reality series that's going to launch at CES?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I think we are going to see it hit the shelves just-in-time for holiday 2006...and given the slow rate at which TiVo introduces new products, I think we'll be lucky if it's out by then. I would love to be wrong about this.


well they have been working on it for many years and with the cable card 1 for a full year now. The only real hurdle left for them is a ratified multistream cable card to make two tuners simpler.

Also the new CEO is more apt to not wait and just make something happen then hold off longer. My bet is 1st half of 2006 with a failrly solid anouncement at CES


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## JoeBarbs (Dec 1, 2003)

Does CES start on Jan 5th? Is TiVo presenting at all this year?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Officially it starts 1/5 - I've been getting press releases for about a week now and press conferences start today in Vegas. TiVo will be represented at CES and presumably demo-ing a bunch of things including the new adapter, new Yahoo! content, hopefully the upcoming HD boxes and hopefully a few other surprises! Not sure if TiVo is actually holding a press conference... anyone know?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I read somewhere (online - not "officially") that TiVo had cancelled a planned press conference.


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## d_anders (Oct 12, 2000)

rainwater said:


> I believe TiVo also hinted that that box wasn't really viable because of the cost. Plus, they didn't want to have to invest in 2 cable card 1.0 slots since they will be outdated with multistream ones eventually.


Yes, it will be an interesting CES. They need to come out with a dual tuner HD box (that will easily work with hd and standard sources), that is both ATSC and cable card capable that has 2 cable card slots, that are software/firmware upgradable to the 2.x specs (once finally ratified).

And, oh, it's needs to be MPEG4 based....

(Yes, I understand that once they're upgraded to multistream it would only really require one card slot, leaving the other idle; but why not be open to the possibility to record 3 or even 4 streams at the same time? That would certainly set a new standard and a new bar for DVRs!)

Ideally, it's one that can act as a great standard two tuner SA box too. Two serial ports and two irda ports would allow for that. That way, Series 3 could accomodate a number of current and future scenarios.

Yes, I expect it will be more expensive with DVI/HDMA ports, etc.

I completely withheld from buying another TiVO box this past Christmas with the expectation that some sort of Series 3 will be announced, and then actually available later this Spring or Summer. As such, my expectations may be too high, but TiVo needs to settle the criticism that they don't offer HD SA options. They should offer it, and they can probably price it a little higher too initially.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

d_anders said:


> I completely withheld from buying another TiVO box this past Christmas with the expectation that some sort of Series 3 will be announced, and then actually available later this Spring or Summer. As such, my expectations may be too high, but TiVo needs to settle the criticism that they don't offer HD SA options. They should offer it, and they can probably price it a little higher too initially.


Price for this box (unlike the current boxes) isn't that important. The vast majority of sales will go to 1) existing TiVo subs eager to upgrade, and 2) home theater buffs who are willing to pay for features. I'm pretty sure TiVo has the smarts to build this thing to satisfy the discerning customer, and to make a profit on it. To get dual-tuner, HD, and cable card, (and, of course, the TiVo interface and features) I'm willing to pay eight or nine hundred bucks (though I'd be happier with six).

I, too, have held off getting a second box, primarily because my only reason for getting it at this point would be to have dual-tuner functionality. I don't think you and I are alone in that decision. But there are a number of other reasons for TiVo to get this thing to market as soon as possible. I expect to see it available in Q2.


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## Drestin (Jan 24, 2002)

I have only one little itty bitty wish from CES this year - that Tivo announces their Comast box is done with dual HD tuners & dual 300 GB SATA drives that ... just ... works. Oh and is available now, like, drive to my local Comcast store and get one....

...

oh, sorry, was daydreaming again...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Drestin said:


> I have only one little itty bitty wish from CES this year - that Tivo announces their Comast box is done with dual HD tuners & dual 300 GB SATA drives that ... just ... works. Oh and is available now, like, drive to my local Comcast store and get one....


Sorry, but I doubt that you'll see that box before TiVo releases their own dual-tuner standalone box. It is important to have that box available to current TiVo subs for a few months before the Comcast-TiVo product is available.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> Which only mentions that direcTv will announce a new partnership so they can do portable video too, not that there is any sort of broader partnership between the satellite carriers and Tivo. I suppose the folks at tgdaily get paid more to write than to read though.


Not sure what other partnerships and announcements are in store... but the first: Humax two-times TiVo. Those TiVo LCD TVs from last year? Turns out they're DirecTV LCD TVs this year! Did someone say portable content? Humax has built the first PMP to support... DirecTV 2Go! Wow!

I put a few details on my page, press release links, and some pics (which don't show much):
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-01/directv-partners-with-humax-for-pmp-lcd/


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

davezatz said:


> Not sure what other partnerships and announcements are in store... but the first: Humax two-times TiVo. Those TiVo LCD TVs from last year? Turns out they're DirecTV LCD TVs this year! Did someone say portable content? Humax has built the first PMP to support... DirecTV 2Go! Wow!


While it may be unexpected to see this device being made by Humax it's not unexpected to see this device. Dish stuck a similar deal with Archos a few months ago and just recently started shipping their product. DirecTV had to come out with something to stay competitive.

Dan


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> While it may be unexpected to see this device being made by Humax it's not unexpected to see this device. DirecTV had to come out with something to stay competitive.


It surprises me (except for the pre-release, release last week)... I just didn't see DTV opening up to that sort of stuff. I guess since they've been so conservative by not incorporating the cooler TiVo mutlimedia features, I assumed they wouldn't move in that direction. What do I know? I really want some more details though on the service and how it works (rather than the hardware) - DTV's press conference is Thursday @ 6:30PM.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

chase cary said something like there there would be SEVERAL portable devices unveled at CES during the last quarter conference call. Maybe that's why humax got top make the pre- announce about being first- there will be others on the 5th??? I wasn't surpriesed either by the announcedment- just that they were allowed by directv to make it before Directv even showed up at CES.

Dig around for my posts at AVS- I cant recall specifics but i listeend to the conference call and posted my notes over there. Sounded like Directv has some new stuff up there sleeve for this CES. But if their DVR's suck there's no point for me. 

Come on Tivo- multistream cablecard Tivo for early Q2! Pretty please!


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

I'll bet you a donut NDS contracted to build this as they have used Humax for other UK destination equipment. I'd further wager this is an NDS design with NDS software. That's a question for anyone viewing this at CES- how does the UI compare between Humax's guide and that of the DirecTv R15 also designed by NDS?

So what is DirecTv thinking? People are going to drop a grand on a 32 inch HDTV display that will only work with one carrier?

I understand why DirecTv thinks this is the best thing since sliced bread to lock in customers, but are consumers given to sticking their legs in bear traps? Why shouldn't the consumer buy a separate box so that they could sell each separately? It's goofy. 

The interesting part is the software. Surely Humax is not writing their own, and I doubt that Murdoch is interested in losing control of the Navigation of his network. The Humax may be pointed at as an example of third party navigation devices, but even if this were not contracted, if NDS software is controlling the navigation, then there is no third party navigation of the carrier's network- and this is the key concept.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

"Portable video expected to take center stage"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20...LEF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mattack said:


> "Portable video expected to take center stage"
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20...LEF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--


I just read that artice, and I never knew that Apple was so elitist that they didn't attend CES.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Carriers will do what is in their business interest to stay competitive as Dan remarked. 

Where DirecTv and Dish cannot go is where Gates and Tivo is going. Their DVRs will never allow you to buy programming via IP if they don't get a substantial cut of the action. They don't want to compete with multiple sources reselling the same content they are. In time, a MultiMode Tivo will allow consumers to cherry pick best service, best content, best price by comparison shopping between Cable, IP, and satellite sources of content. 

The carriers aren't wild about that model, but it's tough- they have no choice. Their little foray into DVRs is not going to kill off or co-opt this trend. MS will offer it, and so will Tivo. But the Carriers won't make it available from their DVRs and STBs for obvious reasons. 

Microsoft has dusted off Glaser's deal with StarZ and pumped some more money and platform support into it. But the content guys aren't going to play favorites- StarZ will just as soon do a deal with Apple or Tivo. Anyone who has a reasonable size audience has a seat at the table. Maybe Apple, or Microsoft will be able to have one network here or a distributor there locked into a short term exclusive agreement during the transition phase but beyond that they are dreaming if they can maintain exclusivity. Neither Apple, Microsoft, nor the carriers will be able to maintain any broad exclusive agreement that will lock out others. 

Consumers will choose the device that navigates that huge mass of content in the most intuitive fashion. They are not going to cotten to devices whose providers want you to use just one source of content- whether it is the cableco's programming lineup, or Apple's IPTV offerings on iTms.


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## manooosie (Apr 10, 2005)

I live in Vegas, and was wondering if someone had an extra badge that I could use. I also have an extra bedroom, but I have not decided if it would be to weird to let someone stay in it I met in TCF!


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

manooosie said:


> I live in Vegas, and was wondering if someone had an extra badge that I could use. I also have an extra bedroom, but I have not decided if it would be to weird to let someone stay in it I met in TCF!


I'd go with _too weird_ ....


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> I'll bet you a donut NDS contracted to build this as they have used Humax for other UK destination equipment. I'd further wager this is an NDS design with NDS software. That's a question for anyone viewing this at CES- how does the UI compare between Humax's guide and that of the DirecTv R15 also designed by NDS?
> 
> So what is DirecTv thinking? People are going to drop a grand on a 32 inch HDTV display that will only work with one carrier?
> 
> ...


actually the humax press release i saw basically said it was Humax's device. Their reference design. That they were building them for any content providers who wanted it. They said it was humax software and they wrote the code so differnt content providers could drop their particular UI on top.

So I think it's a humax product that they customized with Directv's menu system.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

smak said:


> Dave, if you find a good price on a strip hotel let me know.


Bally's $125.10/nt through ReserveTravel (who I've never heard of). I'm so tempted to pull the trigger... but, but, but.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I just read that artice, and I never knew that Apple was so elitist that they didn't attend CES.


The Macworld Expo starts January 9th. So there's not much reason for them to be at CES.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> actually the humax press release i saw basically said it was Humax's device. Their reference design. That they were building them for any content providers who wanted it. They said it was humax software and they wrote the code so differnt content providers could drop their particular UI on top.
> 
> So I think it's a humax product that they customized with Directv's menu system.


the humx press release explaining it is posted by lee is here http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3636976&&#post3636976

also further down that thread talks about a thomson handlheld with similar functionality. I wonder who the third will be to make Chase Carry's comment about several devices come true?

I wish there were SEVERAL people talkign about interoperability with TiVo DVR's and not just Directv's...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> the humx press release explaining it is posted by lee is here http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3636976&&#post3636976
> 
> also further down that thread talks about a thomson handlheld with similar functionality. I wonder who the third will be to make Chase Carry's comment about several devices come true?
> 
> I wish there were SEVERAL people talkign about interoperability with TiVo DVR's and not just Directv's...


what really surprises me is that the AMD alchemy chip that is being used in the Humax reference design was anounced at last CES in conjunction with TiVo and the press release is still on AMD's website .

HUMAX has finally delivered on the potential of this chip but where has TiVo, inc been in all this


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> what really surprises me is that the AMD alchemy chip that is being used in the Humax reference design was anounced at last CES in conjunction with TiVo and the press release is still on AMD's website .
> 
> HUMAX has finally delivered on the potential of this chip but where has TiVo, inc been in all this


Things like this kind of make me wonder if TiVo is really hard to work with or if they just aren't seen as a serious contender in the market so the vendors don't want to put the money out. Well heres to hoping they at least come out with their own stuff.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Kanyon71 said:


> Things like this kind of make me wonder if TiVo is really hard to work with or if they just aren't seen as a serious contender in the market so the vendors don't want to put the money out. Well heres to hoping they at least come out with their own stuff.


It probably just means TiVo has another partner for their next gen SA Tivos.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Here's an interesting nugget that just came out... Akimbo has a new box coming out this spring by RCA and will offer Movielink VOD on it. Now that REALLY interests me! I wonder if you have to pay the monthly Akimbo fee if all you want is to "rent" current movies? Of course I'd gladly give that same money to TiVo if they offered it. All I want is a huge VOD library through a set-top box. Too much to ask for? In 2005 it was... maybe this is the year.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

davezatz said:


> Here's an interesting nugget that just came out... Akimbo has a new box coming out this spring by RCA and will offer Movielink VOD on it. Now that REALLY interests me! I wonder if you have to pay the monthly Akimbo fee if all you want is to "rent" current movies? Of course I'd gladly give that same money to TiVo if they offered it. All I want is a huge VOD library through a set-top box. Too much to ask for? In 2005 it was... maybe this is the year.


I think it's definitely going to happen via Akimbo or Vongo/Microsoft or Apple or your cable provider. I know my local cable provider is rumored to be working on more VOD stuff (they already offer HBO on-demand for example). Lots of talks and technology going towards portable devices too. I think we're gonna see a lot of changes in 2006.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> actually the humax press release i saw basically said it was Humax's device. Their reference design. That they were building them for any content providers who wanted it.


 If so, Great! Does that mean that Tivo can contract with Humax to build a DVR that uses their DirecTv reciever technology? Can a third party really control navigation of the carrier's network if their navigation UI must be "DirecTv approved"**?

If DirecTv/News Corp is not subsidising this product, I'd be very surprized. Surely their IP and at least low level software is being used for interactions with their network.

I really doubt they could make it work with "any carrier", since to interoperate with Cable companies would require not Humax software, but the OpenCable software platform.

It will be interesting when third parties will be allowed to build navigation devices that can be used with any carrier's network, and where the carrier is not entitled to dictate what form of navigation software is used. We won't be there until the satellite companies are reqired to comply with the 1996 law saying that ALL carriers must provide access to their networks to third party navigation devices. Only Cableco's are being forced to do so now. Satellite companies have enjoyed a decade long waiver, and have used it to implement vertical monopoly feifdoms

** (source- the release quote on Dave's site referenced above)


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## Publius (Jul 28, 2003)

Interesting that TiVo is not having a press event at CES (at least it's not on their website). Could this be because they would rather release any new surprises after Apple launches their TiVo competitor to slow the Apple momentum in this space?

That of course presumes that the new Mac Mini will offer PVR capabilities, but I think that strikes me as a fair assumption. If Microsoft can do it, why can't Apple?

Thoughts?


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

Justin Thyme said:


> We won't be there until the satellite companies are reqired to comply with the 1996 law saying that ALL carriers must provide access to their networks to third party navigation devices. Only Cableco's are being forced to do so now. Satellite companies have enjoyed a decade long waiver, and have used it to implement vertical monopoly feifdoms


You lobby more than Abramoff. Only CableCos got decades long true monopolies....no fair!!!

And what's with XM and Sirius? Why can't I buy ANY receiver and use it with their service? I mean, what the hell!!! And open up the telematics market too! I hate BMW service. I want On Star! Stupid closed systems!

Personally, I think we should lobby that all the digital switch-over analog funds be used to fund continued Tivo losses. That's only fair to Tivo shareholders. I'd go for it if you just stopped inserting that same old rant into posts, Justin.

But back to CES: I'm still waiting for CC Tivo. I'd also like at least a 100 base T jack. Wireless doesn't cut it for transfers -- and up the CPU and RAM.

Playing games on my Tivo is oh so much fun but without HD, who cares.

_ITV


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Publius said:


> Interesting that TiVo is not having a press event at CES (at least it's not on their website). Could this be because they would rather release any new surprises after Apple launches their TiVo competitor to slow the Apple momentum in this space?
> 
> That of course presumes that the new Mac Mini will offer PVR capabilities, but I think that strikes me as a fair assumption. If Microsoft can do it, why can't Apple?
> 
> Thoughts?


Apple already has a DVR of sorts for those that want to mess with SDKs but I think a DVR is not their focus and selling downloads is their focus. Of course Mac world will be the tell on that, but I would not look for a very polished off DVR.

the lack of a known press event is rather weird though as TiVo should have a lot to talk about and I can not really think of any "surprises" from TiVo other than content download that would blunt what Apple wants to do with iTunes and video.

and even if Mac shows off a DVR for the mini it would just generate more press on all the new DVR anouncements rather than take away from a dual tuner CC TiVo.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Publius said:


> Interesting that TiVo is not having a press event at CES (at least it's not on their website). Could this be because they would rather release any new surprises after Apple launches their TiVo competitor to slow the Apple momentum in this space?
> 
> That of course presumes that the new Mac Mini will offer PVR capabilities, but I think that strikes me as a fair assumption. If Microsoft can do it, why can't Apple?
> 
> Thoughts?


My thought is that I wonldn't even remotely consider a computer as a replacement for an HD dual tuner TiVo. I would just stick with my Scientific Atlanta dual tuner HD box.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

interactiveTV said:


> You lobby more than Abramoff. Only CableCos got decades long true monopolies....no fair!!!


  


> And what's with XM and Sirius? Why can't I buy ANY receiver and use it with their service?


 Now that is something I would want the FCC to get their hands into more than the sat. TV providers :up:


> But back to CES: I'm still waiting for CC Tivo. I'd also like at least a 100 base T jack. Wireless doesn't cut it for transfers -- and up the CPU and RAM.
> _ITV


the CC prototype shown last year had an ethernet jack, it should be 100baseT as they can throttle the data as needed with a driver. of course a more powerful CPU and more RAM could negate the need to throttle anything and make the TiVo efficient and throwing video all over the place while even better games are being played


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> If so, Great! Does that mean that Tivo can contract with Humax to build a DVR that uses their DirecTv reciever technology? Can a third party really control navigation of the carrier's network if their navigation UI must be "DirecTv approved"**?
> 
> If DirecTv/News Corp is not subsidising this product, I'd be very surprized. Surely their IP and at least low level software is being used for interactions with their network.
> 
> ...


dude- dont be so bitter- just read the press release. Humax made a generic device that content providers can license and put their menu system on top of. IT likely has embedded some kind of id so the Directv box knows it's allowed to transfer the files to it ovedr the usb port. Humax can make one for anyone that has USB ports on their STB's or even PC's (sounds like they might be trying to sell to movie download people too)

Perhaps directv is subsidizing them- who knows. Do you think directv is also subsidizing the thomson device?

Just read the thing yourself- here's some relevent quotes. Notice it says Humax made it and that they are looking for other content partners and that Directv is the FIRST (might be the only content provider but it's clear Human will build the things for nayone that wants.)



> HUMAX USA, the "Easy-Digital" company, has developed a new hard drive based hand-held portable media player (PMP) platform ideal for use by content and pay TV providers with plans to deliver content electronically to customers via portable video devices. The first content provider to be supported by this HUMAX PMP platform is DIRECTV - for its upcoming DIRECTV 2Go service.





> HUMAX is seeking appropriate content partners to design, manufacturer and even market the hand-held PMP devices for.





> The first content partner for HUMAX in this venture is DIRECTV





> "Regardless of OEM or co-branded approach, HUMAX is prepared to support the development of the specific look and feel of the partner's user-interface, allowing them to both extend their brand and be in control of the consumer interactivity with their content and services - which is exactly what HUMAX set out to do with DIRECTV's 2Go product. We feel that customizing a proprietary UI will expedite early adoption of existing customers, build brand equity and also promote the content provider's existing in-home content service to potential new customers," furthered Goncalves.


Content providers and operators interested in discussing their specific needs with HUMAX USA can reach HUMAX USA's vice president of business development and strategic marketing, Tony Goncalves, at the company's Fort Lee, New Jersey Sales and Marketing Headquarters at 201.292.1890.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ....
> the CC prototype shown last year had an ethernet jack, it should be 100baseT as they can throttle the data as needed with a driver. of course a more powerful CPU and more RAM could negate the need to throttle anything and make the TiVo efficient and throwing video all over the place while even better games are being played


another bit of tidbit- the tiawan model has ethernet on the back too although i'm not sure if it's 10 or 10/100. (do they even make 10 only devices anymore? might even be gigabit-LOL they slap that in all the dells dont they!)


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

interactiveTV said:


> And what's with XM and Sirius? Why can't I buy ANY receiver and use it with their service? I mean, what the hell!!!


Actually, the FCC instructed Sirius and XM to collaborate on a receiver 2.5 years ago. They continually claim that they are diligently working on it, but there's been no official progress. But the instruction was made: they have to open up.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

interactiveTV said:


> You lobby more than Abramoff. Only CableCos got decades long true monopolies....no fair!!!


 Welcome back from your hiatus. Perhaps we could open up a thread on DACA submitted by your pals last month as a christmas present to the country.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Any thoughts on this?

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/01/04/scientific_atlanta_streaming_dv-r_stb/

http://www.sciatl.com/newscenter/index.htm


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

Justin Thyme said:


> Welcome back from your hiatus. Perhaps we could open up a thread on DACA submitted by your pals last month as a christmas present to the country.


 My pals? You need a serious reality check, Justin. Jim DeMint is no friend of mine. I do agree with state franchise agreements though. I would think most consumers who want choice would rather see the competition that statewide franchise agreements would help foster with no obvious detriment to the consumer. The same cannot be said by your CONSTANT whimpers on why the DBS industry should lose its waiver and increase STB costs.

If you feel we should open a thread on DACA, maybe you should. Not sure this is the right thread for that OR for the persistent call to end the DBS waiver -- a call whose sole purpose seems to be and for the exclusive cause of Tivo corporate. It's a cause I don't share nor even care about. I'm a Tivo consumer, not its corporate shill.

Or maybe we can open a thread for Tivo shareholders to champion regulatory and legal changes that benefit their stock holdings. Barring that, the same old call to arms for the FCC to end the DBS waiver just keeps getting more and more boring. I've lost count on how many threads in which you've made the same plea -- regardless of their original topic. I stopped counting at 30...

So, back to a thread which started with error-prone rumor mongering...the best kind!!

I expect the usual fluff Tivo announcements including content -- and games and weather on my Tivo is very nice and with about a 50% rate of announcement to actual launch I take it all with a rock of salt -- the meat will have to be with HD from my standpoint -- being a CONSUMER and not a stakeholder. Very little else truly interests me. Tivo can make it so I can control my microwave through its very nice and ever-more convoluted interface (depth menus get old quickly on some stuff) but it won't keep me happy.

My S1 does most of what I need a standard-def Tivo to do.

I'd also like to see a MIGRATION strategy for moving season passes and other STB information to a new unit. We're WAY behind on that and perhaps you, will your programming ability, can comment on how difficult you would guess such a feature would be. Obviously, Tivo would like people to migrate from an S1 or S2 and making that process easier is important.

Prototypes are nice. It's time for something more. My fingers are crossed.

_ITV


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> Humax made a generic device that content providers can license and put their menu system on top of.


I was pointing out that for cable, it is more than a "Menu system". Perhaps you understand something here that I don't. Is it possible to provide interactive functions on a cable device without using OpenCable software?

There are plenty of vendors who build devices to conform to the demands of the service providers, not consumers. Humax is going after this market, and it is nothing new for them. They want to sell boxes. I'm a little surprised about this talk of what this means about their relationship with Tivo. As far as I know, Humax was making boxes for NDS before they made any for Tivo.

I am curious about is whether this sort of thing gets them off the hook in regards to the 1996 telecom law requiring access for third party navigation devices.



> "HUMAX is prepared to support the development of the specific look and feel of the partner's user-interface, allowing them to both extend their brand and be in control of the consumer interactivity with their content and services - which is exactly what HUMAX set out to do with DIRECTV's 2Go product."


This may be a third party device which does navigation, but the design is controlled by the carrier. So when the government said that third party manufacturers could build devices to access their networks, would that have been satisfied if Ma Bell got to say how the users could interact with their phones (whether they could have speaker phones, auto answer, directories of phone numbers for quick dialing)? If the carrier controls the UI, does it qualify as a third party navigation device?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

interactiveTV said:


> Not sure this is the right thread for that OR for the persistent call to end the DBS waiver -- a call whose sole purpose seems to be and for the exclusive cause of Tivo corporate.


Cablecard benefits Microsoft, Apple, Tivo and everyone else with plans to create third party navigation devices.

Similarly for DBS, the same players would be creating competitive products, and the consumers benefit by vigorous competition. Why is DBS any different in kind in this respect? Show me where I am wrong.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

Justin Thyme said:


> Cablecard benefits Microsoft, Apple, Tivo and everyone else with plans to create third party navigation devices.


I'm not interested in the COMPANIES CC benefits. From a CONSUMER standpoint, CC fixes fundamental restraints long lacking with cable -- an industry literally born from monopoly.



Justin Thyme said:


> Similarly for DBS, the same players would be creating competitive products, and the consumers benefit by vigorous competition. Why is DBS any different in kind in this respect? Show me where I am wrong.


 Because you want to "fix" something that is (less) broken.

It comes down to two basic things, Justin, and I've mentioned them more than 10 times.

1) can a consumer PURCHASE the set-top? Cable, until cable card, was a NO. 
2) is there sufficient choice and functionality in the STB?

DBS offers not only the ability to OWN the set-top -- for a very reasonable price -- you also have many choices within a carrier AND you have a carrier choice (Dish or DirecTV). Both of those things are lacking with cable.

I believe, from a CONSUMER stand-point, that right now DBS consumers have it pretty darn good. Not perfect and few consumers would ever admit to happiness with their (insert one here): tv provider, phone provider, dry cleaner, auto mechanic, etc.

That said, the COST to open the DBS systems, especially in the middle of the current MPGE4 and more extensive HD offerings, would only INCREASE costs to consumers. There will be a lot to learn from the CC roll-outs and we've BARELY just begun.

Your call to OPEN DBS NOW!!!! seems to ignore the consumer. Yes, choice is good but at what cost and what exactly is broken? There was NO CALL to open DBS when Tivo had a contract with DirecTV. That contract ends and all of sudden, let's open DBS. That smacks of let's help Tivo not let's help the consumer.

Being able to PURCHASE a choice of STBs for your TV is the first step. Cable still needs that. Since DBS already has that, since consumers ALREADY can buy a cheap STB of their (limited but not too shabby) choice, I see NO REASON TO MUCK WITH DBS RIGHT NOW. None. I fail to see a compelling CONSUMER arguement. Make one. Not Tivo's. Make a consumer arguement where service costs don't dramatically increase.

Most cable consumers have ONE choice of cable company. You have, almost everywhere, TWO choices of DBS service. You can buy your box. You have plenty to pick from and they are pretty damn cheap. Besides lacking Tivo -- and the Comcast/Tivo box won't be Cable Card either! -- where is the huge fire and consumer loss?

Again, I think this is for another thread. As are the CONSTANT cries to open DBS. I get your point. Anyone who has read the constant cries gets your point. I see no consumer benefit right now.

Yes, it benefits Tivo but that's not your job.

_ITV


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

itv said:


> 2) is there sufficient choice and functionality in the STB?


Geosynchronous satellite positions are a limitted resource, and the owners of satellites in those positions are using that leverage to tell me what kind of UI and other features I get on my TV, DVR or other device that connects to that network. Does that sound fair to you? Let's look at DBS HD DVRs- Does one of two choices dictated by one of two duopolists seem like a choice to you?

That is unfair to consumers, because they really have no choice in the matter. If they can't use cable for whatever reason, if you want HDTV, you have to buy the DBS solutions approved of by DISH or DirecTv. That's not a monopoly, but it is a duopoly.

What you get in this atmosphere is CE vendors bending over backwards not to please consumers, but to please the Duopolists.

Just as it is here, in the case of Humax trying to please DirecTv.

Maybe it is enough for the Duopolist to dictate the user interface to CE vendors. That on paper might satisfy the 1996 telecom law. If the same principle were applied to the telco's then we'd still be stuck with this.






Hey, and what a lovely world it was back then. Maybe they should have been able to dictate the interface on how people used long distance. Direct dial if using Ma Bell, or dialing 4 different 15 digit number sequences if using some other vendor.

Great thinking there.


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## Publius (Jul 28, 2003)

New thought:

What if TiVo wasn't going to announce anything at CES because they were going to announce something at MacWorld next week? What if Apple's announcement was actually a TiVo announcement and those rumors of 9 months ago actually had come to pass?

(Ok, this would also require the following what ifs: What if Jobs didn't have an elephant-sized ego? And what if TiVo didn't blow up its relationships with Apple's content providers a few months ago... but we can dream, right?)


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

I still say the major thing for CES is not hardware, but some more major partner announcement with content vendors.

Who knows, Gates may be desperate enough to leave nothing to chance and cut Tivo in on the StarZ deal. Of course transactions would require an MCE, so he gets his bone- and once he has dominance he does mopping up operations to eliminate Tivo and other non MS OS systems.

We really have only a few more days for wild speculation, because after this is over all we get to do is wonder what kind of Intel chip Apple chose for its mini, whether they will lock out other DRMs on the unit, and what the price point will be.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

My biggest take away from reading this thread is the lack of exciting rumor to monger.

Edit...someone just posted the TiVo CES page; nothing there but old press releases from the last two months.

So my rumor is nothing new from TiVo at CES other than perhaps some additional info about previously announced/known activities.

MacWorld rumor: Nothing from TiVo.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> ...Edit...someone just posted the TiVo CES page; nothing there but old press releases from the last two months...


Not true...signup for TiVo Desktop 2.3 Beta.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> My biggest take away from reading this thread is the lack of exciting rumor to monger.


 Well, the pre-announcements are probably more interesting than the rumours, with the exception of the LA-Times one about a Google PC, which was very quickly put to rest by Google.

I just don't think you are going to hear something here first that you haven't already heard coverred by the press. Engadget seems to be doing a great job keeping up with the information. Lots of information flow there.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Edit...someone just posted the TiVo CES page; nothing there but old press releases from the last two months.


The page just went up sometime this afternoon, and the show doesn't officially start until tomorrow. So it is likely any releases won't be put up until then at the earliest, so as not to 'spoiler' the announcements at the show.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> So my rumor is nothing new from TiVo at CES other than perhaps some additional info about previously announced/known activities.


That's fine with me. In my experience, press conferences at shows are used to hype vaporware. I'd prefer TiVo to be on the floor demonstrating a working model of their new box, and giving a shipping date, than to have them blathering to the press about products and services that don't exist. TiVo under Tom Rogers seems to be in put-up-or-shut-up mode. I like that.

Besides, any major news for TiVo will likely come out of Yahoo! or one of the other big players.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

ChuckyBox said:


> ....I'd prefer TiVo to be on the floor demonstrating a working model of their new box, and giving a shipping date.....


I agree. The ONLY news I really want to come out of CES is the date I can send TiVo my money for the new Cablecard box.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

nhaigh said:


> I agree. The ONLY news I really want to come out of CES is the date I can send TiVo my money for the new Cablecard box.


Ditto. Especially now that I have a new high-def set. 

I'd like to hasten the move away from DirecTV since I won't be able to get locals without a new box.

I don't like the Motorola 6412 Comcast interface. The Sony DHG isn't too bad, but it's no Tivo (though they are clearly using some Tivo patented features).

I want the Tivo CC box or Tivo software that'll run on the Sony DVR.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> I was pointing out that for cable, it is more than a "Menu system". Perhaps you understand something here that I don't. Is it possible to provide interactive functions on a cable device without using OpenCable software?
> 
> ...


sorry I think we were having 2 different conversations.

But in regards to your question- I assume that the user is basuically connecting thumb drive (or hard drive I guess for more specifics) to a usb port on a DVR and having the dvr recognize it and then allowing the user to use the DVR UI to tell it what files to copy to the memory device. I dont really see how that needs to work with opencable at all. I think they just create a pretty little ui on the device to graphically mimic the ui the cableco or DBS has on their dvr's. Thats what i think these things are.

But if they are something else please explain. apparently you think they are some sort of interactive cable box that mimics a black ma bell rotary phone of 1975? 

I think NDS was working on some thing that uses a gsm modem to control the DVR remotely and schedule recordings and all that but these things from humax or thomson I think are bascially like video ipods that can connect to PC's or directv dvr's and appear as wdrm mass storage devices.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

nhaigh said:


> I agree. The ONLY news I really want to come out of CES is the date I can send TiVo my money for the new Cablecard box.


what he said!


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Bill Gates just announced a multi-year deal with DirecTV including moving content between DTV and Windows MCE.

For those online now, here's the live feed: http://www.microsoft.com/events/executives/billgates.mspx


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Bill Gates just announced a multi-year deal with DirecTV including moving content between DTV and Windows MCE.
> 
> For those online now, here's the live feed: http://www.microsoft.com/events/executives/billgates.mspx


isn't there a rumor floating around that Directv, Dish, and Tivo all were agreeing on a stadard to work with windows DRM? I think i saw it at dbs forums... Or did we debunk that.

(or did TIVo get the same deal last year with gates?)


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

davezatz said:


> Bill Gates just announced a multi-year deal with DirecTV including moving content between DTV and Windows MCE.
> 
> For those online now, here's the live feed: http://www.microsoft.com/events/executives/billgates.mspx


With all the fuss about not enabling TiVo's HMO beacause of piracy risks they then go and send it all to the most secure environment on the planet !!!!!!


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

More CES keynote info... they just demo-ed an external Dell accessory CableCARD reader for Win MCE.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> sorry I think we were having 2 different conversations.


By golly, you are quite right. In note 63, I now see that you thought my comments applied to the Humax portable device. I was speaking in regards to the Humax Flat panel with integrated DirecTv tuner that DaveZatz mentioned in note 53, and which he further mentioned in his zatznotfunny article.

The portable player is of little interest to me.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> By golly, you are quite right. In note 63, I now see that you thought my comments applied to the Humax portable device. I was speaking in regards to the Humax Flat panel with integrated DirecTv tuner that DaveZatz mentioned in note 53, and which he further mentioned in his zatznotfunny article.
> 
> The portable player is of little interest to me.


WOW! 

we were way off- I totally thought you were talking about the portable do dads and not the lcd. I knew somethign was strange but couldnt' figure out what the ehll was going on.

Life is good!

Now how bout some serious half baked awesome rumors...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

davezatz said:


> More CES keynote info... they just demo-ed an external Dell accessory CableCARD reader for Win MCE.


1.0 or 2.0? Did he say?


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Geosynchronous satellite positions are a limitted resource, and the owners of satellites in those positions are using that leverage to tell me what kind of UI and other features I get on my TV, DVR or other device that connects to that network. Does that sound fair to you? Let's look at DBS HD DVRs- Does one of two choices dictated by one of two duopolists seem like a choice to you?
> 
> That is unfair to consumers, because they really have no choice in the matter. If they can't use cable for whatever reason, if you want HDTV, you have to buy the DBS solutions approved of by DISH or DirecTv. That's not a monopoly, but it is a duopoly.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I must say youre off base here, any company who wants to invest the money in putting sats up is more then welcome to do so. There have been others and probably will be again for many years to come. Echostar and DirecTV just have happened to do it right and are still in business. You want HDTV choices? How about free? Go buy an Antenna and you can get the signal. You want Tivo on  DirecTV? Go buy an SA and hook it up. A monopoly is defined as such:

Exclusive control by one group of the means of producing or selling a commodity or service: Monopoly frequently... arises from government support or from collusive agreements among individuals (Milton Friedman).

Last time I looked you had a choice, OTA, DirecTV, Dish Network, Cable, and now FiOS. Just because you want Tivo on DirecTV and don't like their DVR doesn't mean they have a monopoly. Oh and lest I forget you can still buy the big dishes.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> 1.0 or 2.0? Did he say?


Didn't say, wasn't plugged in, just emphasized digital cable and HD which we can't get now. Actually looked a bit bulky, but the idea of CC gaining traction appeals to me.

They did a bunch profiling HD-DVD, you know the competing standard to Blu-ray. Showed a huge Toshiba unit to debut in March. Demo-ed some interactive disc features which struck me as fluff. Showed how you can make legal digital copies of movies to hard drive. In the Xbox360 segment they said an external HD-DVD drive is on the way - that's news tonight.

Bill's back on stage speaking now... I think this might be the wrap-up. Man I'm fatigued.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

I heard this on another forum regarding CES...



> There was a huge Comcast presence at the Panasonic press event today where Comcast announced Panasonic would be providing future DVRs for them along with the Comcast Guide.


These articles from today seems to confirm it...
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6296807.html?display=Breaking+News
http://today.reuters.com/business/n...ST_0_BUSINESSPRO-ELECTRONICS-PANASONIC-DC.XML

I thought TiVo and Comcast had a deal going, so I wonder how the Panasonic things fits in / conflicts with their plan... Any idea or thoughts?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Kanyon71 said:


> Just because you want Tivo on DirecTV and don't like their DVR doesn't mean they have a monopoly. Oh and lest I forget you can still buy the big dishes.


I didn't say it was a monopoly, and I said I just as much wanted Apple and Microsoft and Sony competing for best "Satellite cablecard" device.

But to go to the essense of the question: Is a monopoly the only form of abuse of dominant market position? Say Shell oil were to buy Hyundai, and make vehicles that only ran on fuel that could be made by Shell oil? Should that be legal?


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## adavidw (Feb 23, 2000)

Kanyon71 said:


> Sorry but I must say youre off base here, any company who wants to invest the money in putting sats up is more then welcome to do so.


That's really not true. While space is infinite, satellites need to be a certain distance from each other to facilitate aiming and prevent interference. The FCC grants licenses to companies for specific spots in the sky, and the number of those locations are _very_ limited.

So, let's say I've got a couple of billion dollars sitting around and want to throw up a satellite or two. I may be able to get them up there by hiring a rocket to send them up. However, once I get the birds there, they can't transmit to the US without an FCC license.

Since the slots are basically full, the existing companies essentially have a monopoly. Not a true free market monopoly, but one granted by the US gubmint. Because of this status, the government and the citizenry have a little bit of a say in the operations of those companies, who are keen to keep their licenses.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

TiVoPhish said:


> I thought TiVo and Comcast had a deal going, so I wonder how the Panasonic things fits in / conflicts with their plan... Any idea or thoughts?


The Panasonic boxes appear to be OCAP boxes so ...

They'll run whatever OCAP software Comcast pushes to them.

If Tivo has an OCAP version of their software ... Comcast could push that. Otherwise ...


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> chase cary said something like there there would be SEVERAL portable devices unveled at CES during the last quarter conference call. Maybe that's why humax got top make the pre- announce about being first- there will be others on the 5th??? I wasn't surpriesed either by the announcedment- just that they were allowed by directv to make it before Directv even showed up at CES.


Looks like you were dead on regarding this. Dave remarked above that DirectTv will have connectivity to all Windows Media devices. That means Creative Zen, iRiver, Samsung Yepp and iPod lookalike- all of them. I wonder if this is a TivoToGo like transfer, a DirecTv tuner on a PCI card, or a communication protocol between NDS R15 units and recent Media center players. (my guess? -a one way DirecTv TTG), toGoBack only for IP content that pays DirecTv for rights to access PPV customers on R15's.

But DirecTv is just one of many content sources.

BillG announced that not only will DirecTv content work on Windows Media portable devices, but a huge slew of other media sources:

[*StarZ
Sky
MTV
Comedy Central
SHowtime
Movielink
Reuters
ABC
Fox/Fox sports
Akimbo

It is clear that Gates does not want to see a repeat of the iPod debacle.

Lots of questions- How much ABC content? Same deal as with Apple? How much of this is usable for display on a TV (eg. via Tivo), or a computer screen. Or is it just 320x240 stuff?

And where is Realnetworks in all of this? How about other devices that have existing interfaces to MCE. Is Tivo odd man out, or did Gates hedge his bets and take no chances by including Tivo as a welcom member in orbit around the MCE?

Oddly, the UI screen shots displayed the same sort of doltish UI that might be fine for dozens of shows, but not tens of thousands.

And that is the supreme irony of all of this. Their single greatest weakness is staring them right in the face. The iPod victory was not just about having a great end to end story, but a very easy to figure out UI.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

dt_dc said:


> The Panasonic boxes appear to be OCAP boxes so ...
> 
> They'll run whatever OCAP software Comcast pushes to them.
> 
> If Tivo has an OCAP version of their software ... Comcast could push that. Otherwise ...


Not sure I understand it right, so feel free to correct me, but from what I've read TiVo will have to completely redesign their software to work with OCAP (java based, not Linux based). Has there been any word they plan to develop an OCAP version?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

The Tivo Comcast project is a port of TIvo software to run as an OCAP** application on a Motorolla box. Once Tivo creates this OCAP application, porting to another OCAP box used by Comcast, like those from SCI-ATL or Panasonic, would be relatively trivial. The code is not necessarily portable between different cable companies though because the head end intereactive services would be very different.

OCAP stands for OpenCable Application Platform. You can read up on it here.

[**EDIT- this is not fact, but conjecture, as noted later in this thread. Thanks DT.]


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

We need a rumor that the Starz thing is going to be announced to work with TiVo...direct downloads to your TiVo and watch on your TV.

If you have a 16x9 set, you can take advantage of anamorphic 720x480 movies, and if you have a DVD-TiVo you get progressive scan component out (480p) and 5.1 digital audio too.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

TiVoPhish said:


> Not sure I understand it right, so feel free to correct me, but from what I've read TiVo will have to completely redesign their software to work with OCAP (java based, not Linux based). Has there been any word they plan to develop an OCAP version?


Tivo has to do some pretty major work (redesign or middleware) to make their software run on any of Comcast's existing boxes (Moto 64xx or 34xx, SciAtl 80xx or 83xx, etc) which seems to have always been the intent of the Comcast deal. I never got the impression Comcast wanted to distribute a "Tivo box" ... they seem to want to distribute Tivo software on their existing boxes so ...

Tivo's got major work to do ...

The question is ... how do they do it.

Anyway, I don't know of anything that has ever specifically indicated they are developing an OCAP version. I also don't know of anything that has ever specifically indicated they are developing native apps or using some other non-OCAP middleware ...

Comcast and Tivo were specifically vague on some of these points ... hopefully to let the engineers (from both sides) figure out the best approach ...


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> The Tivo Comcast project is a port of TIvo software to run as an OCAP application on a Motorolla box.


Love to know where you got that from ...

While an OCAP port is certainly possible ... and would seem like a good step for Tivo ...

I don't know of any specific source for a definitive statement like that.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Does anybody else think the "Best of CES" award logo resembles the label on some sort of canned food from Del Monte? What's more, the object upon which the text is written appears to be a lemon. Not good choices.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

dt_dc said:


> I don't know of any specific source for a definitive statement like that.


I don't think there is one. I've read the contract (at least the non-asterisked portions of it available in TiVo's 10-K, and there is nothing that specific.

But one would hope that TiVo is building their business toward industry standards to the greatest extent possible. Since it is a management goal to have TiVo be an option on as many cables systems as possible, I think Justin's assumption is reasonable. But, unless he has some additional info that isn't public, it is an assumption.

TiVo does have the option to port its system to additional Comcast DVR platforms that are not specified in the contract or added to it by Comcast. This additional development would be at TiVo's expense. In addition, the contract specifies a minimum percentage of Comcast subs to whom the "TiVo Experience" must be made available -- so if Comcast goes to another primary DVR platform, they would need to bring TiVo along with them.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> I didn't say it was a monopoly, and I said I just as much wanted Apple and Microsoft and Sony competing for best "Satellite cablecard" device.
> 
> But to go to the essense of the question: Is a monopoly the only form of abuse of dominant market position? Say Shell oil were to buy Hyundai, and make vehicles that only ran on fuel that could be made by Shell oil? Should that be legal?


Are there other car companies in existence that make the same sort of car for the same price range that will run on anyones gas? If so I don't really care what they do then. In the end I still have a choice, now if shell bought all the car makers and said all cars can only ru on our gas from this day forward I would have an issue with it. As of right now I have a choice of multiple providers (including 2 different sat companies) to choose from. I don't have to use DishNetwork or DirecTV but I choose to use DirecTV and can very easily move from them to Dish or Brighthouse.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

adavidw said:


> That's really not true. While space is infinite, satellites need to be a certain distance from each other to facilitate aiming and prevent interference. The FCC grants licenses to companies for specific spots in the sky, and the number of those locations are _very_ limited.
> 
> So, let's say I've got a couple of billion dollars sitting around and want to throw up a satellite or two. I may be able to get them up there by hiring a rocket to send them up. However, once I get the birds there, they can't transmit to the US without an FCC license.
> 
> Since the slots are basically full, the existing companies essentially have a monopoly. Not a true free market monopoly, but one granted by the US gubmint. Because of this status, the government and the citizenry have a little bit of a say in the operations of those companies, who are keen to keep their licenses.


Well there are spots left and licenses left, as a matter of fact one of the companies who tried a new venture and failed sold their sats off to EchoStar. Voom saw a market, got the license and put the sats up, they failed but they did it. While something may cost a lot of money to do does not make it any less possible to do. With the right amount of money and pull another provider could spring on the market. Yes I do understand what you're saying though.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

*Keywords: NDS, Moxi, OCAP*

January 05, 2006 10:30 AM US Eastern Timezone

NDS and Thomson to Showcase New OCAP Set-Top Box at CES; All-Digital Set-Top Box Based on Popular NDS MediaHighway Middleware

2006 International CES

LAS VEGAS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 5, 2006--NDS (NASDAQ:NNDS) (EURONEXT:NNDS) (BSE:NNDS), the leading provider of technology solutions for digital pay-TV, today announced the porting of its MediaHighway OCAP-based middleware to an all-digital set-top box with an embedded DOCSIS(R) modem from Thomson (NYSE:TMS) , the worldwide leader in access solutions for satellite, cable, terrestrial broadcast, and telecommunications networks.

The OpenCable(TM) Application Platform (OCAP(TM)) is the middleware software specification adopted by the Cable industry to enable application writers to create new interactive services that will run on a broad range of advanced digital set tops and cable-ready TVs.

The set-top box from Thomson (the DCI62) reduces the time to market and cost of deployment for cable operators. This combination of MediaHighway middleware on the Thomson DCI62 set-top box will provide an all-digital solution with a DOCSIS set-top gateway profile (DSG) for cable operators who are ready for a digital switchover. In addition, the DCI62 can be used for high-speed data access, making it a genuine double-play box.

The demonstration of the set-top box at CES will showcase games and interactive advertising, and it will also feature the Emmy(R) Award-winning Moxi Menu and Guide from Digeo, Inc. Digeo is a leading provider of multi-tuner high-definition DVR media center solutions to the cable industry and has worked with NDS and Thomson to develop a demonstration of the Moxi Menu and Guide on OCAP running on the Thomson set-top box. Demonstrations can be seen at both the Thomson Showroom located in Ballroom II of the Renaissance Hotel, and at the NDS Showcase located in the Bellini Ballroom at the Venetian Hotel. The NDS Showcase is by invitation only (see media contacts below).

"NDS is delighted to work again with its long time partner, Thomson, to address the OCAP market requirements," said Caroline Le Bigot, president of NDS France. "As we see the growing demand from US cable operators for the OCAP standard, we are very happy that Thomson recognizes our MediaHighway OCAP middleware as a state-of-the-art solution to address the set-top box market."

NDS MediaHighway middleware is the world's most popular platform for the development of advanced television applications. It has been deployed by more than 25 pay-TV operators worldwide and it is resident on more than 21 million set-top boxes.

"A couple of weeks ago, we signed the CableCARD(TM) Host Interface License Agreement with CableLabs, which enabled us to develop cable Customer Premises Equipment with a CableCARD(TM) removable security interface. Today, we are bringing our commitment to the US cable industry to a higher level with the introduction of an OCAP version of our popular DCI5000 and DCI6000 cable STB lines," said Frederic Kurkjian, vice president, worldwide cable, for Thomson. "OCAP is a key feature for cable vendors like Thomson, and for MSOs who want to introduce new interactive services. Building on our long-term partnership with NDS, we have been able to jointly develop a flexible solution that specifically caters to North American MSO needs."


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

*Akimbo competes with itself on NDS content downloading set-top box:
*
January 05, 2006 09:30 AM US Eastern Timezone

NDS Unveils New XSPACE Solution at CES, Featuring Content from Akimbo, FOX Sports, and IGN Entertainment

2006 International CES

LAS VEGAS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 5, 2006--NDS Group plc (NASDAQ:NNDS) (EURONEXT:NNDS) (BSE:NNDS): First Solution for Delivery of Integrated Audio and Video Content on-Demand over Hybrid Set-Top Box - Enabling Consumers to Connect to Both Broadcast and Web Content Through Their Televisions

HIGHLIGHTS:

-- NDS announces XSPACE, an end-to-end platform for broadcast operators and Internet content providers to support the delivery of on-line entertainment and media services over integrated broadcast/IP set-top boxes

-- NDS, Akimbo, FOXSports, and IGN Entertainment offer content that consumers can access via the new hybrid STB through hyperlinks from within regular TV programming and onscreen triggers

-- Internet content is seamlessly delivered via RSS feeds, processed and streamed from the content provider's Content Delivery Network (CDN) directly to hybrid STBs

-- Supports play-lists, integrated web advertising and pay-to-view premium content

Las Vegas (CES) - January 5, 2006 - NDS, the leading provider of technology solutions for digital pay-TV, has teamed with Akimbo, FOX Sports, and IGN Entertainment, to introduce XSPACE at CES. A comprehensive software solution for hybrid set-top boxes (STBs) with broadband connectivity, XSPACE provides consumers with online access to audio and video content through their televisions. Demonstrations of the new technology can be seen at the NDS Showcase in the Bellini Ballroom at the Venetian Hotel. The NDS Showcase is by invitation only (see media contacts below).

XSPACE allows operators to offer consumers access to premium broadcast and web content through hyperlinks from within regular TV programming, using an onscreen link. A truly novel and integrated experience for the consumer, XSPACE provides access to the vast catalog of content available on the Web through the STB. It also includes the ability to search through the content so consumers can find the specific content they want to watch or hear. Consumers will interact with the on-demand services through the integrated Electronic Program Guide (EPG).

XSPACE is built on a set of NDS technologies - NDS VideoGuard(R) conditional access, Synamedia(TM) broadband IP solutions, together with the NDS XTV(R) integrated personal TV system - and server side components. It transforms audio and video files from the Internet into playable forms for conventional STBs, enabling broadcast operators to avoid the inconvenience and expense of managing a separate on-demand system, since XSPACE delivers STB-ready files directly from the existing Web infrastructure.

At CES, the demonstration of XSPACE will highlight access to content from leading providers, including: video from on-demand service provider Akimbo; sports video clips from FOXSports.com; and video game previews and head-to-head comparisons from online video game portal IGN.com

"We developed XSPACE to be an extension of an operator's and content provider's existing systems. XSPACE applies existing pay-TV business models, such as subscription and Pay-Per-View, to Internet rich media content," said Gadi Tirosh, vice president of product marketing, NDS. "It ensures that the operator's STB remains the main point of consumption for TV and other digital media, and it integrates broadcast and online content with purchasing models that benefit operators, providers and viewers alike."


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Kanyon71 said:


> Are there other car companies in existence that make the same sort of car for the same price range that will run on anyones gas? If so I don't really care what they do then. In the end I still have a choice, now if shell bought all the car makers and said all cars can only ru on our gas from this day forward I would have an issue with it. As of right now I have a choice of multiple providers (including 2 different sat companies) to choose from. I don't have to use DishNetwork or DirecTV but I choose to use DirecTV and can very easily move from them to Dish or Brighthouse.


The question was only if Shell acquired Hyundai. Sure let's qualify the scenario as you suggest: there are other inexpensive cars; shell hasn't purchased all the other car companies, and so on.

Regardless whether you "care" whether they do it or nor, I sasked a different question: Should it be illegal?


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Justin Thyme said:


> The question was only if Shell acquired Hyundai. Sure let's qualify the scenario as you suggest: there are other inexpensive cars; shell hasn't purchased all the other car companies, and so on.
> 
> Regardless whether you "care" whether they do it or nor, I sasked a different question: Should it be illegal?


IMHO provided they are not anti-competitive it's legal. What I mean is provided the Hyundai performs as well as the other then alls OK. However if the Hyundia will go twice as far/fast as other manufactures cars running on the same fuel because of an "secret" addative they put in the fuel then it is anti-cometitive and should be illegal. It's the same argument that puts Microsoft in court every day.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

*New DVR cable box with built-in DVD burner, respects the broadcast flag... the one that was shot down (for the time being) if you recall. 
*
January 05, 2006 06:30 AM US Eastern Timezone

Sonic Powers Cable Industry's First DVD on Demand DVR From Scientific Atlanta; Scientific Atlanta's MCP-100 Leverages Sonic AuthorScript to Burn Downloaded and Recorded Shows to DVD

2006 International CES

LAS VEGAS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 5, 2006--Sonic Solutions(R) (NASDAQ:SNIC), the leader in digital media software, today announced that Sonic AuthorScript(R) DVD on Demand(TM) is now shipping as part of the cable industry's first set-top box to feature DVD recording and playback capabilities, the MCP-100 DVR with DVD Recorder/Player from Scientific Atlanta. The dual-tuner MCP-100 is an all-in-one media center combining a digital cable receiver, multi-room digital video recorder (DVR), a DVD/CD player, and a DVD-R recorder. The unit's DVD functionality is enabled by the powerful, easy-to-integrate AuthorScript DVD-On-Demand software development kit (SDK), which allows cable/satellite and consumer electronics industry manufacturers to build full DVD recording and playback into their products without the expense of additional hardware.

Available immediately for deployment and evaluation by cable service providers, the MCP-100 has already received two industry awards: the Consumer Electronics Association's "Best of Innovations" award for Video Components in the CES Innovations 2006 Awards competition, and the Communications Technology 2005 Reader's Choice Award in the Advanced Video category. The device offers cable service providers a single-box solution that gives their subscribers versatile capabilities in a compact, convenient package. With embedded AuthorScript software, users of the box are able not only to play off-the-shelf DVDs and CDs, but also to easily transfer their favorite recorded or downloaded programs, both standard and high definition, from the DVR hard drive to writeable DVDs for playback in other devices.

"The availability of the MCP-100 marks an important milestone in the evolution of home entertainment from a collection of individual media devices and services to an integrated system that allows consumers to enjoy media with much greater convenience, simplicity, and synergy," said Dave Davies, vice president, strategy and product marketing for Subscriber Networks at Scientific-Atlanta. "To ensure a smooth transition to this new unified platform, we've integrated the best possible DVD technology by taking advantage of the Hollywood-proven performance and reliability of AuthorScript. Sonic is a key technology partner in creating our next-generation set-top solution."

AuthorScript DVD on Demand-enhanced DVRs allow recorded content to be enjoyed in a much broader range of playback environments while freeing recording space on the DVR hard-drive and reducing clutter in the living room. AuthorScript's DVD recording software respects all copy protection flags set by the content owners, including "copy freely," "copy once," and "copy never." By enabling recording of content to DVD-R, AuthorScript allows cable, satellite, and IPTV services to offer their customers attractive new features that go significantly beyond the abilities of a simple DVR, providing a unique differentiator in a competitive environment. The deployment of AuthorScript DVD on Demand in the Scientific Atlanta platform also lays the foundation for new MSO business and revenue models based on electronic sell-through of digital video to writeable DVD in the home.

"With the emergence of a promising new DVD market in the set-top space, Sonic is ideally-positioned to help usher in a new era for cable viewers by leveraging our decade-long DVD experience in sectors such as Hollywood authoring and home PC recording," said Mark Ely, Sonic's executive vice president of strategy. "The launch of this first-ever set-top in a brand new category demonstrates the strength of Scientific Atlanta's engineering, the depth of its commitment to enabling innovative new capabilities for its customers, and the promise that the set-top market holds for Sonic technology."

Sonic will be demonstrating AuthorScript-enabled DVD recording and playback on the MCP-100 in its suite at the January 2006 International CES in Las Vegas, Nevada. For further information on AuthorScript set-top DVD solutions, please contact Sonic at [email protected].


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

dt_dc said:


> Love to know where you got that from ...
> 
> While an OCAP port is certainly possible ... and would seem like a good step for Tivo ...
> 
> I don't know of any specific source for a definitive statement like that.


You are absolutely right. I should not have stated that as an fact, but a likelihood asserted by a crackpot.

Really. I don't have anything to base that on except my assumption of where Comcast wants to go with its software. The cableco's created the open cable project in reaction to the proposal by a software company (Microsoft) to control the fundamental OS layer of STBs. To depart from that strategy would be a rather startling departure, especially if Comcast is paying the bill for the development.

Actually, I do not know that it is so wise for Tivo. I can imagine all sorts of BS limitations that the Cablecos could put in their OS (not through malice, but incompetence with real time OS's) that would create severe problems for Tivo's usability. I don't envy the guys on this job. I think it will be way late, and be extreme Tivo Lite. But yay. with interactivity features you can't get with CC Tivo because CC 2.0 is stalled [sarcasm]. Perhaps stalled permanently due to the cableco's drive to jettison physical cards in favour of revokable digital certificates.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> The question was only if Shell acquired Hyundai. Sure let's qualify the scenario as you suggest: there are other inexpensive cars; shell hasn't purchased all the other car companies, and so on.
> 
> Regardless whether you "care" whether they do it or nor, I sasked a different question: Should it be illegal?


If I havea choice of others that will sell me the same type of products they offer then I see no problem with it or that it's legal. If they are my only choice then I have an issue with it and the legalities of it. As they could then raise prices to a point where they are out of hand.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> You are absolutely right. I should not have stated that as an fact, but a likelihood asserted by a crackpot.


I've been 50/50 on OCAP vs. native since the deal was announced ... so I certainly wouldn't call it crackpot. I could make an argument either way ...

Which is why I've been curious for more info.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

*Keywords: RIP-OFF*

January 05, 2006 12:10 PM US Eastern Timezone

Fox Entertainment Group and DIRECTV Launch Partnership to Offer Best of FOX and FX Network Programming On Demand

2006 International CES

LAS VEGAS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 5, 2006--

Groundbreaking Deal Includes Pre-Air Broadcasts of FX Series, Post-Air Broadcasts of FOX Programs Plus One Hour Weekly Showcase of Fox Entertainment Highlights

Fox Entertainment Group and DIRECTV, Inc., today announced an agreement to bring viewers the best of FX and FOX Broadcasting on demand through the new DIRECTV Plus(R) DVR (digital video recorder). In an industry first, beginning in March viewers will get a "first look" at prime time hits from FX a full 24-48 hours prior to their initial broadcasts for $2.99 and, later in the year, DIRECTV subscribers will have post-air access to FOX Broadcasting's hottest series for just 99 cents for six to seven days following their national broadcast. The innovative deal will provide DIRECTV subscribers the ability to choose between pre-air and post-air television programming options for the first time ever.

In addition, DIRECTV viewers will have free, on demand access to a weekly showcase of exclusive highlights from Fox Entertainment, including the promotional presentation of limited, full-length television episodes, extended footage from leading Fox programs, and behind the scenes features on Fox films and TV shows.

"We're committed to finding new ways to bring our content to consumers and we think this deal is a huge step forward in giving them greater choice and control over their entertainment experience," said Peter Chernin, President and Chief Operating Officer of News Corporation. "For the very first time, viewers will be able to watch their favorite shows before the rest of the world. And we now have the ability to create different cuts of our programs for the pre-air audience -- versions with additional scenes and materials not included in the network broadcast -- something entirely new. It's an exciting opportunity for the television consumer and for us. Moreover, this new partnership will also enrich the viewing experience by providing access to DIRECTV's enhanced services, features and interactive functionality."

"Growing our interactive/On Demand service is a top priority for DIRECTV and our partnership with Fox is further testament to the commitment DIRECTV is making to delivering the very best in television and entertainment programming," said Chase Carey, president and CEO, DIRECTV, Inc. "By continually offering our subscribers new and exclusive programming choices at their convenience, we not only enhance the viewing experience but broaden the depth of our services and offerings."

Under terms of the agreement, viewers will have on demand access to some of television's most acclaimed dramas, comedies and documentaries including FX's "The Shield," "Rescue Me," "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia," and "30 Days" and FOX Broadcasting's "24," and "Prison Break."

"Television viewing habits continue to evolve and this deal is a prime example of our ongoing effort to bring consumers exciting new ways to individualize their entertainment experience," said Peter Levinsohn, President of Fox Digital Media. "And in DIRECTV, we've found an ideal partner."

The DIRECTV Plus DVR brings the viewing experience to new levels with an array of network programming on demand, one-touch pause, rewind and fast-forward functionality and 100 hours of recording capacity and interactive functionality. The DIRECTV Plus DVR is available at 1-800 DIRECTV, directv.com and all Best Buy and Circuit City retailers nationwide.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

I'm suprised this hasn't happened sooner given both companies are part or News Corp.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

davezatz said:


> *Keywords: RIP-OFF*
> 
> January 05, 2006 12:10 PM US Eastern Timezone
> 
> Fox Entertainment Group and DIRECTV Launch Partnership to Offer Best of FOX and FX Network Programming On Demand


Jeezus. These network schmucks really don't get it, do they? They are becoming increasingly obsolete, and now, faced with a tidal wave of new content and new distribution models, their response is to try to charge for a product they've been giving away for years. Talk about visionary...


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

Is this CEs or DirecTV ES?  Seems like they are bringing out a ton of new things.


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## colforbin13 (Jan 31, 2005)

Why would you pay 99 cents for a show you can just tell your DVR to record? I understand the pre-play stuff, but post-play on-demand from a DVR doesn't make much sense...


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> These network schmucks really don't get it, do they? They are becoming increasingly obsolete, and now, faced with a tidal wave of new content and new distribution models, their response is to try to charge for a product they've been giving away for years.


Traditionally, the networks have charged their customers (advertisers) for delivering a product (viewers) ... nothing "free" about it.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> Jeezus. These network schmucks really don't get it, do they? They are becoming increasingly obsolete, and now, faced with a tidal wave of new content and new distribution models, their response is to try to charge for a product they've been giving away for years. Talk about visionary...


It sounds like a bad model, but people ARE paying for this stuff with the "on-demand" model. And unless you are using your OTA antenna on top of your house, you're not getting anything for free now.

It sounds silly to us TiVo-people because we've been recording what we want for years now without being charged anything additional, and still seeing it when we want. Problem is, most people haven't been. HBO On-Demand has become rather popular from what I understand... at least in my area. My husband and I had a big conversation about this yesterday... he wanted to get it; I refused to pay ADDITIONAL money for the same programming when a DVR will be connected to two TVs in this house... so I'll already HAVE the choice to watch it when I want to.

But something like "Anime On-Demand" is a little more unique (and I have a daughter obsessed with Anime), so that I will subscribe to.

davezatz -- I posted about the Scientific-Atlanta box (DVR+DVD) yesterday right in this thread... I've read an articles that called it "the REAL TiVo-Killer". Don't know if I agree or not, but Scientific-Atlanta equipment is already used by Time Warner and Cablevision, at least in the tri-state area. Whether the Cable companies are comfortable offering a DVD burner will remain to be seen.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

dt_dc said:


> Traditionally, the networks have charged their customers (advertisers) for delivering a product (viewers) ... nothing "free" about it.


From the viewers' point of view it was entirely free. Even those paying for delivery via cable or satellite are conditioned to think of network programming as free. Now the networks are hoping to charge for programming that can be viewed and recorded via other means for no additional cost.

The big networks have been steadily losing viewers for years. Maybe they ought to think of ways to increase their audience rather than finding ways to try to suck a few extra bucks out of their ever-dwindling viewer pool.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> From the viewers' point of view it was entirely free. Even those paying for delivery via cable or satellite are conditioned to think of network programming as free. Now the networks are hoping to charge for programming that can be viewed and recorded via other means for no additional cost.
> 
> The big networks have been steadily losing viewers for years. Maybe they ought to think of ways to increase their audience rather than finding ways to try to suck a few extra bucks out of their ever-dwindling viewer pool.


The only time I see this being handy is if you didn't record something and then decide you want to see it. Like you normally don't watch a certain show but all of your friends are talking about an episode and you decide you want to see it. If it's a first run show on a major network replay isn't likely for some time so you could pay the $.99 download it and watch the show.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

What strikes me as absurd is they specifically mentioned these pay-per-shows are features of the *DVR* model! I guess if you miss recording a show or really hate commercials, maybe it makes sense. But still strikes me as bizarre and a rip.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

davezatz said:


> What strikes me as absurd is they specifically mentioned these pay-per-shows are features of the *DVR* model! I guess if you miss recording a show or really hate commercials, maybe it makes sense. But still strikes me as bizarre and a rip.


What even more bizarre is at least according to SOME cable companies, if you use a set-top box with a cablecard you won't have access to pay-per-view or on-demand viewing (and it's listed as a downside).

Read this just a bit ago...

Comcast to order digital cable boxes from Samsung
"Top U.S. cable operator Comcast Corp. on Thursday said it planned to purchase new digital set-top boxes made by South Korean consumer electronics company Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. beginning in 2007...
-snip-
...Comcast also buys set-top boxes from Scientific-Atlanta Inc. and Motorola Inc. and is working to incorporate TiVo Inc. video-recording software into its systems."


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVoPhish said:


> It sounds like a bad model, but people ARE paying for this stuff with the "on-demand" model.


Its like so exciting and retro, man. Nostalgia for the days when on line services charged per minute and per KB.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> Its like so exciting and retro, man. Nostalgia for the days when on line services charged per minute and per KB.


Hey man, "on-demand" isn't my first choice for programming but I'm also someone who buys a lot of DVDs (which most people don't do) and who has had a TiVo since their very first generation.

Pay-per-view, video rentals and now "on-demand" is quite popular. Think about how popular a place like Blockbuster or Netflix is... people see VOD as the same, but now they don't have to leave the house. They don't look at it as being "charged extra".


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> What even more bizarre is at least according to SOME cable companies, if you use a set-top box with a cablecard you won't have access to pay-per-view or on-demand viewing (and it's listed as a downside).


It's not "according to SOME cable companies". It's according to CableCard 1.0. It doesn't support bi-directional data. So you can't order PPV or any VOD. That is one of the features in the CC 2.0 spec.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

davezatz said:


> What strikes me as absurd is they specifically mentioned these pay-per-shows are features of the *DVR* model! I guess if you miss recording a show or really hate commercials, maybe it makes sense. But still strikes me as bizarre and a rip.


Yeah, it only works if you have a DVR so they can record the show on your drive for you and then charge you to access it. I wonder who will be the first to hack that? I agree with other posters: some people will use this feature some of the time. I just don't think this mad rush to make these exclusive little deals is addressing the real issue facing the traditional TV industry.

Anyway, Dave, aren't you at CES? How come nobody has given us a report from the TiVo booth?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> What even more bizarre is at least according to SOME cable companies, if you use a set-top box with a cablecard you won't have access to pay-per-view or on-demand viewing (and it's listed as a downside).


an example of a cable co. talking FUD by giving half of the truth.
With Cable Card 1 that is out now there is no interactive two way and thus no PPV or VOD. That is true.
the other half is that there is a cable card 2 that has been technically worked out but all the cable cos are dragging their feet on ratifying since they see cable cards as opening themselves up to competition and rightly so. The cable cos claim they can not work out tech differences on how they communicate with STBs but if the ywere finally, truly forced to use cable Cards themselves in all new boxes they would ratify cable card 2 within a month.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Kanyon71 said:


> Is this CEs or DirecTV ES?  Seems like they are bringing out a ton of new things.


this may actually be why TiVo is not pre-releasing info or holding a scheduled PR event. They want DirecTV to have the "stage" first and then TiVo can release their info and better respond to whatever DTV has said. That is my new guess


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> an example of a cable co. talking FUD by giving half of the truth.
> With Cable Card 1 that is out now there is no interactive two way and thus no PPV or VOD. That is true.
> the other half is that there is a cable card 2 that has been technically worked out but all the cable cos are dragging their feet on ratifying since they see cable cards as opening themselves up to competition and rightly so. The cable cos claim they can not work out tech differences on how they communicate with STBs but if the ywere finally, truly forced to use cable Cards themselves in all new boxes they would ratify cable card 2 within a month.


I know they are dragging their feet on CC2... and I'm sure it's at least partially what you've said (competition)
I also wonder (out loud) how much the network players are putting up roadblocks as well (since they prefer the VOD model vs. the DVR Record-whatever-you-like model). What do you think?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> Anyway, Dave, aren't you at CES? How come nobody has given us a report from the TiVo booth?


Nah, I didn't make it... I waited to long to decide on self-funding the trip (rather than a 'working' trip with Engadget) and by then prices were sky high. However, I'm on everyone's CES email list so I'm getting tons of press releases and have been corresponding with various company press representatives... which is an interesting strategy of covering the event. 

Like everyone else I want to know what TiVo is showing off in that booth and what announcements they have to make! And for each announcement I want a time-frame specific to a quarter - not to a year or half-year.

Megazone is on site and will be reporting on TiVo Lovers and hopefully chiming in here as well. PVRBlog is not onsite and I don't think PVRWire is either. Alex of TiVoBlog was scheduled to be there, but I haven't seen any reports yet.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVoPhish said:


> I know they are dragging their feet on CC2... and I'm sure it's at least partially what you've said (competition)
> I also wonder (out loud) how much the network players are putting up roadblocks as well (since they prefer the VOD model vs. the DVR Record-whatever-you-like model). What do you think?


What scares the hell out of both of them is that if they lose control of the box, they will lose control of their customers because they lose control of their stranglehold on distribution. A box connected to a TV can get content from the internet (no, I'm not talking about IPTV) and there is no way to prevent people from watching what they want, when they want, and from the source they want. The traditional broadcast model dies, and you can't keep charging $60 a month for the limited content that comes through digital cable. The DVR is just a stepping stone to completely _a la carte_ television delivered via broadband.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

davezatz said:


> Nah, I didn't make it...


Bummer.

Someone on the TiVo stock board at Yahoo! posted that TiVo is demoing TTG on a Mac. But the original source of that claim is not clear.


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## B Smooth (Jan 7, 2000)

I was watching an interview with the CEO of Netflix and scoffed at the time, but it really seems like his prediction is very quickly coming to reality. He suggested that we would see a complete convergence of entertainment driven from the Web. A company like yahoo,google, or Netflix  would have relationships with all(or enough) of the producers of content and customers would be able to purchase everything ala carte. You could buy "season passes" to TV shows, movies, etc and have all of it downloaded quickly to your computer, then you could use one of any number of gadgets to stream content to your television. 

He felt that DirectTV, DiSH, and Comcast would be loosers because they would not have the ability to get content from a large enough number of sources due to constrained. bandwidth.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

B Smooth said:


> He suggested that we would see a complete convergence of entertainment driven from the Web. A company like yahoo,google, or Netflix  would have relationships with all(or enough) of the producers of content and customers would be able to purchase everything ala carte.


Did someone say Google, video, producers? 
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060105-5902.html


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

davezatz said:


> Did someone say Google, video, producers?
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060105-5902.html


The Google Pack has been rumored for a while now. It seems that article is more speculation than anything. I guess we will find out the real deal on the google video service shortly.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

rainwater said:


> It seems that article is more speculation than anything.


How about the WSJ then? 

http://online.wsj.com/public/articl...5bN3Q0Pm7bvt0ceWXfYjQ_20060112.html?mod=blogs

Google to Offer Video Downloads,
Software That Rivals Microsoft's
By KEVIN J. DELANEY and NICK WINGFIELD
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
January 5, 2006; Page A9

Google Inc. plans to announce Friday that it will begin allowing consumers to buy videos from major content partners through the Google site and will also roll out a new downloadable bundle of software for consumers that could heighten Google's competition with Microsoft Corp., according to people familiar with the matter.

Under the major upgrade to Google's video-search service, consumers will be able to pay to download and view videos, such as television shows, on their computers from Google content partners such as TV companies, people familiar with the matter say. Google plans to announce partnerships with some major players tomorrow, including CBS Corp. and the National Basketball Association, these people say.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:



> What scares the hell out of both of them is that if they lose control of the box, they will lose control of their customers because they lose control of their stranglehold on distribution. A box connected to a TV can get content from the internet (no, I'm not talking about IPTV) and there is no way to prevent people from watching what they want, when they want, and from the source they want. The traditional broadcast model dies, and you can't keep charging $60 a month for the limited content that comes through digital cable. The DVR is just a stepping stone to completely _a la carte_ television delivered via broadband.


I don't think I follow this argument exactly...

It seems they WANT To go towards the "on-demand" model, and I know my own local cable company seems to be working towards that. PPV and VOD, the model iPod is usuing, the model Vongo want to use (which is similar to VOD)... this seems to be where the industry WANTS to see it go. If the DVR is a stepping stone to that, it would be a welcome stepping-stone.

But the DVR really subtracts from the need to have VOD, which I'd agree then there's an argument to be made from the players against them.

What it seems to me is that the general public wants a nice combination of DVR+VOD+live programming+ability to archive to DVD+internet info that comes in handy (news, weather, ability to buy movie tickets, etc)... now, my cable company already offers all of that except for the DVD part (and I wonder if they will explore the Scientific-Atlanta DVD box since they already offer their equipment just about exclusively in the tri-state area... at least from what I know). A la carte programming as an exclusive model may never fly... especially when you still have live programming (news, sports programming, awards shows, pageants), but from a movie/series standpoint, if the pricing is right... well, I just don't know. I'd have to give a lot more thought to that, my own viewing habits, and what it would end up costing me 

I'm not sure I agree it's losing control over HOW their viewing audience watches is their primary concern. Lots of people have been able to record (to VCR) for years, to DVR for the last few years (and the cable and satellite companies both offer that ability now), now to DVD (pretty new though), go out and buy or rent DVDs (which LOTS do), and now get on-demand or PPV. I think they worry more about the revenue lost from leased equipment and losing their audience COMPLETELY to other options, especially as they become more widely available. iPod video download prices don't offend so many people BECAUSE VOD is becoming more popular, and PPV has been popular for a while. It bothers TiVo-ites because they already know they can record and watch... but that's not free either (between paying your cable/sat subscription AND your TiVo subscription)... more cost effective long-term, maybe... but certainly not free.

What is more a concern to them IMO is the competition not from stand alone STBes, but from the fact there are now OPTIONS for where you get your programming from... whatever type of programming it may be. Used to be Cablevision was the only choice... now you've got satellite widely available, and soon FOIS. Not to mention what IPTV will bring to the game and video providers like Vongo or iTunes. I believe the STB becomes an afterthought... a "bonus" as to what is compatible with what medium. From my perspective, the general public is most concerned first with what they can watch and how, and THEN how their settop box makes that easy or difficult... and lets face it, the STB game is getting pretty feature-rich now.

Put it this way -- only the most geek-like people I know have ever mentioned STB features to me... most of my non-geek family and friends have NEVER mentioned that as a selling point to why they choose the programming they do. I've never heard someone say "you should see the STB I got".

Admittedly HMC's will change all that... but then we're not talking about stand alone STBes.

I could ramble on about this forever so I'll stop... I think we're both right, and probably both wrong... LOL... time is going to tell how it will all play out.

ps. I recently heard from a colleague about the "Google Cube" thing... just another rumor or player to watch...


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

ChuckyBox said:


> Jeezus. These network schmucks really don't get it, do they? They are becoming increasingly obsolete, and now, faced with a tidal wave of new content and new distribution models, their response is to try to charge for a product they've been giving away for years. Talk about visionary...


I think DirecTv's motives are understandible. They are fighting the near term threat they can see (not always an unwise move to do this rather than shadow box speculative threats. It's only unwise if they ignore they lose site of the larger strategic trend.)
 cablecos threaten Satellite companies with a differentiating feature- VOD from satellite is not possible in the traditional sense.
 DVRs can do a pseudo VOD scheme, but you have to reserve as significant portion of disk space and record stuff even if the user didn't ask for it. 
 DirecTv switches to their own DVR so they can do this.
 DirecTv can say me too to CableCos' VOD, but only in a very limitted way (the NDS R15 can only pre-cache hundreds, but not thousands of such pseudo VOD shows locally.)
 [end game in the next few years:] None of these skirmishes make any difference. Carrier provided VOD (whether Comcast, DirecTv, etc.) merely becomes one of many sources of VOD available, and carriers cannot compete on cost or variety of IP source Video, or the thousands of shows cheaply archived on consumer servers.
Aftermath? Only the boxes that are agnostic about sources of content- That is, the platforms that allow each content distributor to compete on a level playing field with all other content distributors will be able to deliver the variety and low cost that consumers demand. Meaning: third party DVRs: from the usual CE vendors, from microsoft, Tivo, and even maybe Apple someday (when they finally give in and allow competitors to iTms, and allow cablecard input.) By this time, it will be a historical curiousity why people in 2005 viewed VOD PPV and DVRs as an either or proposition.

Who knows which of the content models are most popular with consumers. That really doesn't matter. The consumer will have the power to watch TV their way.

In case anyone missed it, the popular platform is the one that people find easy to use and can navigate these enormous numbers of choices. Victory Tivo.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

TiVoPhish said:


> I think they worry more about the revenue lost from leased equipment and ...


 Considering they carry these boxes on the balance sheet, they take a huge cash outlay, the lease prices are pretty low (what's the return on the SA8300HD which leases for $7/month and costs them more than $500?), and they have a pretty limited lifespan, especially right now as more competitive features are constantly being rolled out, I don't see the "lost revenue" as a huge concern. Control over their pipes? Certainly. Control of the user experience as much as possible? Certainly. Revenue from the leased STBs? It's a loss and they were once held VERY captive to a duopoly (MOT and SFA).

Personally, I see state franchise agreements as more important to competitive video delivery than CC right now. FIOS and the other bell launches are the fourth source (OTA/Cable/DBS) and FIOS certainly offers ths broadest pipe of them all right now. All the internet delivery of programming is just talk until the average US household can get past the pretty piss-poor (when compared to other 1st world countries) 2.1 Mbps we seem to get (recent average of DSL reports speed test).

We'll need what? 20Mbps for 1 HDTV channel and forget trying to use Vonage or do other things with that streaming through. I'm sure a gear head will correct me on that stat but we're still a few years away from TRULY fat pipes into the home and statewide franchise agreements will only help spur both new installations and further video competition.

_ITV


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> ...By this time, it will be a historical curiousity why people in 2005 viewed VOD PPV and DVRs as an either or proposition.


It could already be considered a curiosity when you can already do VOD, PPV and DVR on one box... so I'm not sure what you're saying. You can't with TiVo or other 3rd part STBes, but you CAN with the box cable provides. I think what you mean is that there will be more universal choices for doing so... which I agree with.



Justin Thyme said:


> Who knows which of the content models are most popular with consumers. That really doesn't matter. The consumer will have the power to watch TV their way.


They do now... they just don't have it offered equally by different providers...

Don't know I agree that it will all end up "equal" -- nor should it. Competition is a good thing. I do agree there should be more of an equal playing field for developing the technology though.



Justin Thyme said:


> In case anyone missed it, the popular platform is the one that people find easy to use and can navigate these enormous numbers of choices. Victory Tivo.


Yes and no. As patents expire there will be "TiVo-only" features appearing in other company's STBs and software, which is already happening I believe. For example, Season Pass type features are now popping up in cable-provided DVRs. There are also features in some DVRs that TiVo has yet to implement... so while their user-interface is the nices, there are features missing that are important (though I realize coming soon). A good example of this is when a family member asks me "can I record one channel and watch another?" -- well the answer is yes and no, but the fact remains that current TiVos are one-tuner only. If I want to record something on HBO and watch something different on showtime, there's really no easy setup to do it.

It will be a TiVo victory if they can stay in the game -- some project they won't be able to hold on. I don't honestly know either way, but HOPE they do hang on!


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVoPhish said:


> I don't think I follow this argument exactly...
> 
> It seems they WANT To go towards the "on-demand" model, and I know my own local cable company seems to be working towards that. PPV and VOD, the model iPod is usuing, the model Vongo want to use (which is similar to VOD)... this seems to be where the industry WANTS to see it go. If the DVR is a stepping stone to that, it would be a welcome stepping-stone.


Right, but VOD from a cable company source through a cable company box is completely under the cable company's control. But if they don't control the box, they lose control of consumer choices (as you pointed out). A lot of their business will go elsewhere and people will begin to question why they are paying so much for a ton of digital cable channels that they barely use. What terrifies the networks is that they will lose their concentrated audience to the millions of choices that will be available on the internet. Network economics depend on big budget shows that get a big audience. But if the long tail argument plays out, the current TV audience will be spread over a much, much wider collection of programming. TV audience-hours are limited, and the only way to spread them out over more choices is if the current choices get less.



> Put it this way -- only the most geek-like people I know have ever mentioned STB features to me... most of my non-geek family and friends have NEVER mentioned that as a selling point to why they choose the programming they do. I've never heard someone say "you should see the STB I got".


Sure, but the whole idea of STB choice is only starting to emerge. I think there will be some basic features that everyone offers, and the differences will come down to interface design, brand, marketing, etc. Integrating all of the choices into a simple, easy to use package will not be trivial, but I'm guessing that TiVo's offering will be pretty good.

Anyway, now I'm wondering if part of Comcast's desire to have a TiVo offering was, in part, to hold on to customers who would otherwise buy their own cable card STB (TiVo or otherwise).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> I know they are dragging their feet on CC2... and I'm sure it's at least partially what you've said (competition)
> I also wonder (out loud) how much the network players are putting up roadblocks as well (since they prefer the VOD model vs. the DVR Record-whatever-you-like model). What do you think?


I think the networks (I read this as the actual content producers/owners) are more tired of the cable and sat stranglehold on distribution than we are. I think they like VOD cause it is revenue and want to expand that into not having to share on demand revenue with cable cos by turning it into download instead. That way everybody has to compete with 3 other bodies to get the rights to distribute on the dowload system they created and these download systems do not require the huge capital outlay of stringing the cable since the use the internet access to go ver the cable 

so the networks are just having fun watching cable cos jump through hoops to stave off the inevitable.

may hurt my zealot TiVo apologist standing here  but I think DVRs as we know them today have a limited shelf life and my grandkids will be playing with a HoLo which grabs content completely wirelessly from lord knows where


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the other half is that there is a cable card 2 that has been technically worked out but all the cable cos are dragging their feet on ratifying since they see cable cards as opening themselves up to competition and rightly so. The cable cos claim they can not work out tech differences on how they communicate with STBs but if they were finally, truly forced to use cable Cards themselves in all new boxes they would ratify cable card 2 within a month.


Actually now the cable companies say everything is ironed out ... ready to go ... they are perfectly happy with the specs and timeline they've laid out ...

The CEA on the other hand ...

Consumer Electronics Association



> The Plug & Play negotiations to date reflect the differing visions of two industries as to what real competition entails. The cable industry vision is evident from the technologies and license agreements that its CableLabs consortium has offered. In our view this approach does not fulfill the requirements of either law or regulation


http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518185152

The 2.0 specs the cable companies are now happily pushing would seem to make it prohibitive for Tivo (or anyone else) to produce a truly 'competitive' bidirectional product. You've got three options:
1) Make a unidirectional box with all the additional bells and whistles you'd expect from Tivo
2) Make a bidirectional box which downloads all it's software from the cable company and doesn't give you any functionality other than what the cable company provides
3) Make a horribly expensive kludge of a box that somehow tries to combine the two and doesn't do a very good job of it

The 2.0 specs are a win for the cable companies and they'd love to see them go into effect quickly and start killing off unidirectional products.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> Actually now the cable companies say everything is ironed out ... ready to go ... they are perfectly happy with the specs and timeline they've laid out ...
> 
> The 2.0 specs the cable companies are now happily pushing would seem to make it prohibitive for Tivo (or anyone else) to produce a truly 'competitive' bidirectional product. You've got three options:
> 1) Make a unidirectional box with all the additional bells and whistles you'd expect from Tivo.


ah, thanks for the update. So they have moved on to plan B of passing something that is not open and away from plan A of dragging their feet 

I vote for TiVo doing your option #1. Never been a fan of PPV or VOD and its high price and short viewing window - I can do without communicating with my cable company and just want something to record efficeintly off that pipe while I play around with the new and different pipes also present on the box


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think the networks (I read this as the actual content producers/owners) are more tired of the cable and sat stranglehold on distribution than we are. I think they like VOD cause it is revenue and want to expand that into not having to share on demand revenue with cable cos by turning it into download instead.


 I don't see this at all. I don't even know what you mean by "actual content producers" when referring to "networks." Do you mean someone like Carsey Werner? Or ABC? Or ESPN? Or Mark Burnett?

Because NONE of those groups have an issue with "cable and sat stranglehold." Actually, the content producers NEED the networks and cable channels and the broad coverage they get. Mark Burnett wants limited channels as long as his content is on the ones carried. ABC gets its signal carried for nothing and has no issue with cable or DBS except it might want MONEY from them. And ESPN gets a BOATLOAD of cash each year from the Comcast and DirecTV and the like...

You truly believe that networks (which only refers to four or maybe five channels) or the other channels such as MTV or ESPN want their audiences fragmented? Want other competition? If you do, explain WHY because it makes no sense at all and ignores how television works.

They'll do VOD and dip the toe but they DEPEND ON CONSTRAINED DISTRIBUTION to ensure their product has value. Remember, these are the ones already on air and working. You think they want consumers to be able to choose from all that other stuff?

Maybe the Stinky Cheese Channel -- which can't get carriage on any cable system without paying $5 a sub -- isn't too thrilled with the current state of affairs but if you think ESPN isn't happy as a pig to gets its HUGE monthly subscriber tribute, you really need to rethink.

VOD is an interesting thing to try and perhaps, one day, could be an answer to declining advertising revenue due to commercial skip but that isn't because they don't like the current DISTRIBUTION system, it's because the advertising support model will need to adapt (slowly and not nearly as dramtically as the technorati chicken littles always seem to claim). They'll try other distribution but make no mistake, they LIKE the current system just fine. They just don't control how it changes...and change it will.

Again, the 2.1 Mbps pipe isn't going to carry all that much. This New World Order being written here over and over again sounds so much to me like a mad stampede into a wall. My friends with Vonage ***** and moan about trying to download a JPEG while on the phone. Try getting a HD program down that pipe and talking to mom at the same time...pipe still needs to get bigger regardless

_ITV


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

awww screw it, i'm done.

i think i'll just read a book.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jmoak said:


> awww screw it, i'm done.
> 
> i think i'll just read a book.


...or take a nap


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> Anyway, now I'm wondering if part of Comcast's desire to have a TiVo offering was, in part, to hold on to customers who would otherwise buy their own cable card STB (TiVo or otherwise).


Thanks for all the feedback.

On your last point, I also wonder how it all plays out with Comcast's recent committment to buy from Panasonic (OCAP) and now Samsung, and how TiVo fits in. Hopefully TiVo will tell us soon 



ZeoTivo said:


> I think the networks (I read this as the actual content producers/owners) are more tired of the cable and sat stranglehold on distribution than we are. I think they like VOD cause it is revenue and want to expand that into not having to share on demand revenue with cable cos by turning it into download instead. That way everybody has to compete with 3 other bodies to get the rights to distribute on the dowload system they created and these download systems do not require the huge capital outlay of stringing the cable since the use the internet access to go ver the cable
> 
> so the networks are just having fun watching cable cos jump through hoops to stave off the inevitable.


I don't doubt it, but I also think they want to be sure to get paid for their content which is why I wondered (out loud) if they are also putting up some of the roadblocks. DRM is a major part of this. If they allow VOD and PPV to become widely available on platforms that can transfer the data to a portable device (for example), then illegal wide-spread distribution becomes an issue of concern.



ZeoTivo said:


> may hurt my zealot TiVo apologist standing here but I think DVRs as we know them today have a limited shelf life and my grandkids will be playing with a HoLo which grabs content completely wirelessly from lord knows where


If our grandparents had tried to figure out what the technology would have been today... they just couldn't have envisioned it... and I'd imagine what will come down the pipe for OUR grandkids is just as unimaginable


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## colforbin13 (Jan 31, 2005)

I was speaking with a friend who is a Comcast tech last night, and he said the TiVo deal will not require new equipment, but that the software will be pushed to the current boxes. What this means as far as how the software will be implemented, I don't know. But it does mean good market saturation for the TiVo software as everyone will get it without needing to request the update.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

interactiveTV said:


> I don't see this at all. I don't even know what you mean by "actual content producers" when referring to "networks." Do you mean someone like Carsey Werner? Or ABC? Or ESPN? Or Mark Burnett?_ITV


TiVoPhish used the word network and I responded in a bigger picture of content producers - meaning some one like Josh Weedon who is tired of having to make deals with one of the 4 or 5 players you talk about in order to get a show on. And Sci-Fi channel was once a stinky cheese channel that had to run ads asking people to call their local cable company and demand they offer the Sci-Fi channel.

it is indeed theese types that are tired of knocking at one type of distribution door, hat in hand. Great for ESPN and Sci-Fi now and the networks but not for many others.

The music industry scoffed at downloading music as needing compressed audio files and useless over modems. now they are making good money at the download game and indies can ignore regular distribution channels like iTunes and make their own if they want. Sure big business will always be big business and ESPN will keep on being happy as a pig in whatever distribution mode so long as it has the *content*

anyway looks like this CES rumor thread has little to keep the main topic going. Sure hope TiVo anounces more details of its CC HD DVR before it becomes obsolete


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## Oknarf (Oct 30, 2003)

colforbin13 said:


> I was speaking with a friend ... But it does mean good market saturation for the TiVo software as everyone will get it without needing to request the update.


It would be nice to see that in a press release before dumping D* for Comcast, rather than just relying on word of mouth. You saw how "word of mouth" worked out for the families of those miners the other day.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> anyway looks like this CES rumor thread has little to keep the main topic going. Sure hope TiVo anounces more details of its CC HD DVR before it becomes obsolete


And come on... you KNOW I agree 



colforbin13 said:


> I was speaking with a friend who is a Comcast tech last night, and he said the TiVo deal will not require new equipment, but that the software will be pushed to the current boxes. What this means as far as how the software will be implemented, I don't know. But it does mean good market saturation for the TiVo software as everyone will get it without needing to request the update.


That's certainly interesting... now I can only hope the same will happen in Cablevision areas too  -- at least there's HOPE


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Oknarf said:


> You saw how "word of mouth" worked out for the families of those miners the other day.


Nothing here we're talking about has any meaning in the grand scheme of things and there is no analogy to the miners.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

colforbin13 said:


> I was speaking with a friend who is a Comcast tech last night, and he said the TiVo deal will not require new equipment, but that the software will be pushed to the current boxes. What this means as far as how the software will be implemented, I don't know. But it does mean good market saturation for the TiVo software as everyone will get it without needing to request the update.


To support this opnion read the Comcast Press Release.



Comcast said:


> *Comcast and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo service that will be made available on Comcast's current primary DVR platform. New software will be developed by TiVo and will be incorporated into Comcast's existing network platforms.*


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> I don't doubt it, but I also think they want to be sure to get paid for their content which is why I wondered (out loud) if they are also putting up some of the roadblocks. DRM is a major part of this. If they allow VOD and PPV to become widely available on platforms that can transfer the data to a portable device (for example), then illegal wide-spread distribution becomes an issue of concern.


 Well I took networks and made that into actual content producers like a Josh Weedon of Buffy or Serenity series and think they want more options. The "networks" like ABC or CBS are not keen to see the advertising game change and make their job harder but then again they made some good money on iTunes off the few series they put up there so the Toe they dipped told them the water is fine. But yes I see your scenario of this becoming like the music distribution where illegal copies abound that the average person would use. "Hey I have the latest HBO series on my portable, how about I come over and we watch it" while geeks will find ways to copy it around.

but in the end the music business is still big business and adapted to the new ways. and cable card is now inevitable anyhow no matter how much they dragged it out. Glad TiVo hung in there.



> If our grandparents had tried to figure out what the technology would have been today... they just couldn't have envisioned it... and I'd imagine what will come down the pipe for OUR grandkids is just as unimaginable


I heard about these "VCRs with hard drives" a long time ago and thought great - mass storage. But when I was watching 3 channels on a TV with a dial and getting all excited about the "Movie of the week" spectacular for some movie that had been in theaters last year I never imagined that they would come on a shiny disc and there would be rows of them in a store.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

TiVoPhish said:


> It could already be considered a curiosity when you can already do VOD, PPV and DVR on one box... so I'm not sure what you're saying. You can't with TiVo or other 3rd part STBes, but you CAN with the box cable provides.


No you can't, and you will never on a carrier box, because they will never allow IP content from competitor providers. Chucky makes this clear in his last note. You in fact are not exposed to multiple vendors of VOD content, so you are quite wrong- you don't have it.


ChuckyBox said:


> Right, but VOD from a cable company source through a cable company box is completely under the cable company's control. But if they don't control the box, they lose control of consumer choices (as you pointed out). A lot of their business will go elsewhere and people will begin to question why they are paying so much for a ton of digital cable channels that they barely use. What terrifies the networks is that they will lose their concentrated audience to the millions of choices that will be available on the internet....


Microsoft is pushing multi vendor content hard, so is Tivo. Even if Tivo dies in the battle, carrier domination of distribution ends. They will be forces to compete with everyone else. I'll have a box that allows direct connection to the internet, to my cable provider's network, and the the satellite network. If I choose to buy some DirecTv programming, I will do so based on whether they or the local cable company is offering the best deal/ best quality with the fewest strings attached.

Maybe that's an apple box, or a microsoft, or a tivo. Whatever. But one thing is certain: self preservation dictates that it is not going to be a carrier box.

Maybe the carriers will succeed in subverting the 1996 telecom law and actually be able to continue to abuse their dominant market power to lock out consumer choice. Each vertically locked in vendor oligopoly keeps its rates artificially high with their own captive viewers. Churn rate is reduced to nill, alternate suppliers of content (via IP connections is blocked by carrier controlled software).

Personally, I doubt it. As Zeo Pointed out, content owners resent the stranglehold of the oligopolist carriers more than consumers. Further, Tivo is not alone in the fight for third party access to Carrier networks. If anything, they are a minor player. CE vendors represented by the CEA and Microsoft are the major forces pushing for carrier compliance to the 1996 telecom law.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Oknarf said:


> It would be nice to see that in a press release before dumping D* for Comcast, rather than just relying on word of mouth. You saw how "word of mouth" worked out for the families of those miners the other day.


dude - that's foul :down:


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## manooosie (Apr 10, 2005)

Can anyone at CES get me a badge?? I didnt know it costs a hundred bucks!


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## Oknarf (Oct 30, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> dude - that's foul :down:


True. But the point is valid. Word of mouth is not reliable and should be confirmed with facts if one is to take it as valid.

I've seen the press release which stated that "Comcast and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo service ..." but until we see actual product it's just a proposal to work on something which may never come to fruition.

I'm surprised we haven't heard anything yet from Comcast or Tivo. I did note, however, that in the press release for the Panasoninc hardware deal it didn't mention what would run the DVR. Did it?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TiVo's No-Show At CES:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/tivo-cancels-press-preso-for-informal-product-demos/

Hopefully megazone can get us details and photos of _something_ as the sole "TiVo reporter" out there. Maybe a TiVo rep can drop in here too and excite us. Please.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

_When asked about the cancellation they indicated they felt they'd made a lot of announcements in the weeks and months leading up to CES and wanted to avoid over-saturation._

That's some pretty transparent spin. Pony clearly hinted we'd hear something about the Comcast and CableCARD Tivos, two things about which they have NOT made a lot of announcements at all, so "oversaturation" cannot be the issue there. Abruptly deciding to go mum like this on what would be their two biggest products, products that were announced for this year, does not bode well IMO.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Oknarf said:


> I've seen the press release which stated that "Comcast and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo service ..." but until we see actual product it's just a proposal to work on something which may never come to fruition.


It is more than a proposal to work on something. It is a contract between two companies. Comcast paid TiVo an upfront fee (estimated at a few million dollars) for licensing rights, and will pay TiVo for progress on a jointly-developed statement of work. The products to be developed are a "TiVo Experience" DVR software package that will be available to at least an agreed-upon minimum percentage of Comcast's subscribers, and an advertising management system that will be deployed to another percentage of Comcast's deployed DVRs, whether they use the TiVo experience or not. When the TiVo Experience product is ready, Comcast has committed to certain marketing activities to promote it.

The (edited) contract can be found in TiVo's last 10-K which is here (search on "tivo experience" and you'll be close to the beginning).


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> this may actually be why TiVo is not pre-releasing info or holding a scheduled PR event. They want DirecTV to have the "stage" first and then TiVo can release their info and better respond to whatever DTV has said. That is my new guess


I hope you're right, and it's not that they just don't have anything to announce


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

DrStrange said:


> _When asked about the cancellation they indicated they felt they'd made a lot of announcements in the weeks and months leading up to CES and wanted to avoid over-saturation._
> 
> That's some pretty transparent spin. Pony clearly hinted we'd hear something about the Comcast and CableCARD Tivos, two things about which they have NOT made a lot of announcements at all, so "oversaturation" cannot be the issue there. Abruptly deciding to go mum like this on what would be their two biggest products, products that were announced for this year, does not bode well IMO.


Do you think that the new box may have been dropped?


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## Oknarf (Oct 30, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> It is more than a proposal to work on something. It is a contract between two companies. Comcast paid TiVo an upfront fee (estimated at a few million dollars) for licensing rights, and will pay TiVo for progress on a jointly-developed statement of work. The products to be developed are a "TiVo Experience" DVR software package that will be available to at least an agreed-upon minimum percentage of Comcast's subscribers, and an advertising management system that will be deployed to another percentage of Comcast's deployed DVRs, whether they use the TiVo experience or not. When the TiVo Experience product is ready, Comcast has committed to certain marketing activities to promote it.
> 
> The (edited) contract can be found in TiVo's last 10-K which is here (search on "tivo experience" and you'll be close to the beginning).


Maybe it's semantics but I see very little difference between my statement and your post. A few million is chump change in big buisness, especially when it's filled with vagueries like "that will be available to at least an agreed-upon minimum percentage of Comcast's subscribers" and "Comcast has committed to certain marketing activities to promote it".

The bottom line is it can't be compared to current and announced product until it's announced and given a time frame for availability. Yes I've heard the Q1 February discussions but I'd like to see more.

To not announce anything at CES is a blunder, in my opinion.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Oknarf said:


> To not announce anything at CES is a blunder, in my opinion.


Especially if the likes of Engadget are starting to report "TiVo has nothing new...".


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Doesn't it seem odd that they would even mention CES in the monthly email if they had no intention on showing anything for it?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

DrStrange said:


> That's some pretty transparent spin. Pony clearly hinted we'd hear something about the Comcast and CableCARD Tivos, two things about which they have NOT made a lot of announcements at all, so "oversaturation" cannot be the issue there. Abruptly deciding to go mum like this on what would be their two biggest products, products that were announced for this year, does not bode well IMO.


I don't know, it may actually mean that both are closer than we've been led to believe. Keep in mind that there are probably about 100,000 Christmas 40-hour Series 2 boxes still to be activated. If TiVo were to start flaunting a new box (or boxes) that would be available, say, next month, they might get a lot of returns.

As for Comcast, well, DirecTV has been making a lot of noise at the show, and revenge is a dish best served cold...

Just speculation.

Also, did you notice from the article, "The TiVo/Yahoo partnership includes support for content downloads on top of the integration with traffic, weather and photos, including support for podcast and videoblog downloads [...]" This may just be engadget misunderstanding the situation, but up to now, neither TiVo nor Yahoo! has discussed video download from Yahoo! to TiVo boxes. But maybe we'll get some news tomorrow from the Yahoo! keynote.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

ChuckyBox said:


> Also, did you notice from the article, "The TiVo/Yahoo partnership includes support for content downloads on top of the integration with traffic, weather and photos, including support for podcast and videoblog downloads [...]" This may just be engadget misunderstanding the situation, but up to now, neither TiVo nor Yahoo! has discussed video download from Yahoo! to TiVo boxes. But maybe we'll get some news tomorrow from the Yahoo! keynote.


But I don't want Yahoo content, I want Cablecard HD TiVo - then give me Yahoo as much as you like. Yahoo is no good if I don't have a box to run it on !!!!!!


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> I don't know, it may actually mean that both are closer than we've been led to believe.


That's a very good point... not only possible holiday boxes returns, but any current stock could go unsold if they anounced a new box would show up in 3 months. I'm going to think positively here.  I also think you could be right about them saving the announcement for their larger partners - maybe we'll still learn something. Though today's non-event is discouraging. I really need a dual-tuner HD box... as of months ago.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

davezatz said:


> That's a very good point... not only possible holiday boxes returns, but any current stock could go unsold if they anounced a new box would show up in 3 months. I'm going to think positively here.  I also think you could be right about them saving the announcement for their larger partners - maybe we'll still learn something. Though today's non-event is discouraging. I really need a dual-tuner HD box... as of months ago.


I hear you. I've been slogging by with the single tuner Sony DHG-HDD250. Yuch...but it's the only option I have right now (other than the LG unit) for HD content.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

davezatz said:


> TiVo's No-Show At CES:
> http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/tivo-cancels-press-preso-for-informal-product-demos/
> 
> Hopefully megazone can get us details and photos of _something_ as the sole "TiVo reporter" out there. Maybe a TiVo rep can drop in here too and excite us. Please.


Maybe Apple is buying TiVo and the news will be on Jan 10.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

nhaigh said:


> Do you think that the new box may have been dropped?


I have no idea. I sort of doubt it's been dropped, but if they don't even have anything to demo now I have to wonder if they'll be ready this year at all.


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## neilaevans (Oct 18, 2001)

Was someone asking about an HD Series 3 cablecard tivo?

Perhaps they should check out www.tivolovers.com.

"TiVo shows Series3 HDTV Cable Card unit at CES"


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## Keith Plucker (Oct 14, 2002)

> I don't know, it may actually mean that both are closer than we've been led to believe.


That is a possibility but I doubt it. The new box will not be price competitive with the current stand alone units. Plus, I am guessing most of the yet to be activated Tivos sold to people that are not early adopter types.

I am hoping for the best but to me, not showing any new boxes at CES is extremely disappointing.

-Keith


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

DrStrange said:


> I have no idea. I sort of doubt it's been dropped, but if they don't even have anything to demo now I have to wonder if they'll be ready this year at all.


But I thought they had a prototype of it at last years CES.

I'm wondering if they dropped it and figure on simply supplying and supporting software for Comcast etc and milking the smaller but more volumous subs. Maybe they are out of the hardware business all together. If that was the case then they would have nothing new to anounce.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

megazone just emailed me... he's been at the TiVo booth all day. There is a Series 3 and he's got the details and photos:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/tivolovers/tag/series3

He's also got pics of an MCE plugin, iPod/PSP conversion, etc.


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## neilaevans (Oct 18, 2001)

I'd have liked something a little sooner than "mid-to-late 2006", but still, great news! Dual tuner (well, six tuners - ATSC, cable, and NTSC) and external expansion definitely catch the eye!


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Oknarf said:


> Maybe it's semantics but I see very little difference between my statement and your post. A few million is chump change in big buisness, especially when it's filled with vagueries like "that will be available to at least an agreed-upon minimum percentage of Comcast's subscribers" and "Comcast has committed to certain marketing activities to promote it".


It isn't filled with vagueries, it is a contract, so everything is specified. The vagueries were mine because the contract has many of the specifics withheld from the public filing for competitive reasons.

If you want to believe that Comcast would give TiVo a few million dollars and sign a contract committing themselves to perform a range of specific activities, with no expectation that anything would ever be delivered, well, I guess you can keep believing that.



> The bottom line is it can't be compared to current and announced product until it's announced and given a time frame for availability. Yes I've heard the Q1 February discussions but I'd like to see more.


Tom Rogers, TiVo's CEO, said in the 3QFY06 earnings call (Nov. 29, 2005) that they were on target to deliver in the latter part of (calendar) 2006. Which I take to mean 2nd half. I doubt you'll hear much more than that until someone has the thing running in their living room.



> To not announce anything at CES is a blunder, in my opinion.


How so? The media is so oversaturated with gizmos right now that anything short of an actual working teleporter is going to lost in the noise.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> The media is so oversaturated with gizmos right now that anything short of an actual working teleporter is going to lost in the noise.


But, lack of "noise" could, and probably will be construed as a lack of progress this year.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> I don't know, it may actually mean that both are closer than we've been led to believe. Keep in mind that there are probably about 100,000 Christmas 40-hour Series 2 boxes still to be activated. If TiVo were to start flaunting a new box (or boxes) that would be available, say, next month, they might get a lot of returns.


Even if that were the case, that'd only be a reason to be vague about a release date. It wouldn't be a reason to not show the boxes at all. Besides, do you want current cable customers in the market for a decent high-def dual tuner DVR to wind up in a two year DirecTV commitment because you don't look like you're close to offering a cable option?

Edit: Just saw MZs report. I feel a bit better now, although I was hoping a CC Tivo release would be sooner than mid to late 2006 (assuming the date doesn't slip even more by then).


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

DrStrange said:


> Even if that were the case, that'd only be a reason to be vague about a release date. It wouldn't be a reason to not show the boxes at all. Besides, do you want current cable customers in the market for a decent high-def dual tuner DVR to wind up in a two year DirecTV commitment because you don't look like you're close to offering a cable option?
> 
> Edit: Just saw MZs report. I feel a bit better now, although I was hoping a CC Tivo release would be sooner than mid to late 2006 (assuming the date doesn't slip even more by then).


But it looks like they are showing the Series III after all.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

DrStrange said:


> _Edit: Just saw MZs report. I feel a bit better now, although I was hoping a CC Tivo release would be sooner than mid to late 2006 (assuming the date doesn't slip even more by then)._


I can live with that, plus they obviously didn't want to hurt this year's holiday sales.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

davezatz said:


> megazone just emailed me... he's been at the TiVo booth all day. There is a Series 3 and he's got the details and photos:


I want it. Where do I pre-order?


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## dr_mal (Mar 21, 2001)

ChuckyBox said:


> I want it. Where do I pre-order?


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

:drool:

Oh my God I want one!!


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

DrStrange said:


> Edit: Just saw MZs report. I feel a bit better now, although I was hoping a CC Tivo release would be sooner than mid to late 2006 (assuming the date doesn't slip even more by then).


No No no. Mega is in on the disinformation! Don't believe a word! The photos are doctored!

Here are the rumors I have heard from multiple reliable sources:

Tivo is run by a marketing guy now. This is just artful showmanship- the real announcement comes a day after CES closes.
Apple doesnt think CES matters, and neither does Tivo. Control the news and get maximum attention by announcing outside of the shadow of CES. Tivo is not shooting for the early adopters that CES focuses on, but what the mainstream will buy this year. 
The news of a collapse of talks between Apple and Tivo last month, resulting in the iPod software announcement was all disinformation just like Jobs disinformation prior to the video iPod announcement. Tivo announces at Macworld that there will be a macTivo that fully integrates with iTMS only via IP, with video iPods only via docking cradle, and with current and future Mac desktop platforms. 
Tivo had a major deal with Microsoft, and Microsoft pulled out at the last minute.
Tivo was presented a major deal with Microsoft at the last minute (major equity stake, cash, tight interoperability with Vista and all Windows Media portables), and is working hard on the new announcements.
After tieing one on at the New Years eve party, TivoJerry and TivoShannon went for a bit of a joyride with the forklift with all the CC Tivo prototypes. The Tivos were all recovered and boot up, but refuse to display anything more than the Tivoguy with a huge grin. All the wizard engineers have been called in but have not yet isolated any scientific explanation for the software anomaly. TivoJerry and TivoShannon were also found nearby in the desert with similar huge grins on their faces. No word yet from the air force on the nature of those large scorched areas around the recovery site.
 Barton and Comcast will announce that Tivo will unilaterally support revocable certificates rather than CC2.0, and embrace Java OCAP interactivity in the Tivo formerly known as the CC Tivo. Microsofts cablecard plans immediately called into question.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Oh noooooooooo...I thought it was too good to be true!!!


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Naughty TivoShannon. Uncle Thyme must spank.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

mz,

I took the liberty of re-sizing and re-posting your Series3 image. Hope you don;t mind


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

megazone gave me permission to repost some of his pics... I grabbed as many as I could (5) before his site got slammed by Digg readers:

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-01/tivos-series-3-lives/


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that if I have one of these Series 3 boxes and I put a bunch of programs on my external SATA drive, that I could then plug that drive into my computer and, with a little bit of software, transfer the programs to pretty much whatever device I wanted without the need for all of that network copying nonsense. And by making use of the very fast processor in my computer (rather than the slower processor in the TiVo) to do the work, it seems like the transfers would be done in nothing flat.

And couldn't I plug that drive into another TiVo somewhere else, and watch my content there? And couldn't I just copy the disk, as is, to my laptop, and then play the content back through a player that understood the TiVo file format?

I think maybe this opens some interesting possibilities, is what I'm saying.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Chuck:

I doubt the drive works that way. Very much.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Here's an interesting closer look at the back-side of the Series3, from mz's picture:


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Megazone has confirmed the device can tune two HD signals via one antenna... since I despise Comcast, that OTA news is good for me! He also let me know there's no word on pricing. I told him to come here and receive his kudos for breaking the story. And of course share any more juicy details. 

What's up with SATA? Why not use USB for external storage devices (and PMC's)?


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

I reposted some of Megazones photos and tidbits on my own server to help with bandwidth

*Click here to see Tivo Series 3 Photos* -- courtesy of Megazone


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Hey, I'm rumormongering.

And what's with the funny circular light(?) thing on the front of the SATA drive? It's kind of XBoxy.

And have you noticed how all the little informational signs on the TiVo exhibits suck up to Intel?

And why does the service number of the new box start with 648?


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

davezatz said:


> What's up with SATA? Why not use USB for external storage devices (and PMC's)?


Have they said that USB is out? Could they be giving us both options?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

davezatz said:


> What's up with SATA? Why not use USB for external storage devices (and PMC's)?


Speed? Two HD signals compressed to MPEG-2 writing plus one being played back might be too much for USB.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Why Sata? Transfer speed, no need to create a USB Host, better resource control for real time application- you don't want to clog up peripheral (low priority) IO with critical system function IO (writing another block of data from an MPEG2 encoder).


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

davezatz said:


> TiVo's No-Show At CES:
> http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/tivo-cancels-press-preso-for-informal-product-demos/
> 
> Hopefully megazone can get us details and photos of _something_ as the sole "TiVo reporter" out there. Maybe a TiVo rep can drop in here too and excite us. Please.


Hey folks, I brought this Engadget article to the attention of our marketing folks. Don't quote me on this (Dave Z., I'm talking to you especially) because I'm not in marketing or PR, but my understanding is that we intentionally never scheduled a press conference for this year's CES -- we're showing lots of great things in the booth, but there are no formal announcements that I'm aware of, and thus no press release. Engadget is making it sound like we suddenly changed our minds or that we had a press conference scheduled at a certain time and then canceled it, and as far as I know that's simply not true.

Pony is at CES and I'm not sure when he'll be able to post more formally, but I did want to at least get the word out to stop any rampant speculation and rumor-mongering.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

What  no night light! wELL WHO WILL WNAT ONE NOW. THIS WILL BE THE DEATH OF tIvO








oops, guess that falls into wild speculation and rumor mongering


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## rorschach (Apr 20, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> And what's with the funny circular light(?) thing on the front of the SATA drive? It's kind of XBoxy.


Looks temporary to me. It actually has a USB logo next to the connector on the back. Might be a stock enclosure refitted for demo purposes. The design doesn't match either.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Don't quote me on this (Dave Z., I'm talking to you especially) because I'm not in marketing or PR


No prob, I understand.



> but I did want to at least get the word out to stop any rampant speculation and rumor-mongering.


No worries... we all feel much better now that megazone has posted all sorts of details and photos!  (It's all over the Internet at this point, so you guys don't have any bad PR to worry about.)


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## colforbin13 (Jan 31, 2005)

It looks to me like there's an "HP" logo on the side of that external SATA drive in the "SATA-back-1" image.

[edit]Maybe it's a "WD" logo - Western Digital?[edit]


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> What  no night light! wELL WHO WILL WNAT ONE NOW. THIS WILL BE THE DEATH OF tIvO


Heck- I'll rig you up a blinkey blinky Tivo light from power off the USB port, then you can stickey it to the front panel.

Stephen- Thanks for the clarification, but I don't think anybody really remembers that Engadget rumor posted a few hours ago. The series3 info from megazone kind of erased it from everyone's consciousness.

What we really want to get to the bottom of is how far TivoShannon got on her joy ride on the fork lift at the New Years eve party, and just who was riding shotgun?


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

You guys should start by spelling Shanan's name correctly. 



ChuckyBox said:


> And why does the service number of the new box start with 648?


We always assign new TiVo Service Number prefixes to brand new platforms. I will tell you that the "4" in "648" means the same thing as the "4" in the existing prefixes 140, 240 and 540.


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## ack_thbbft (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm back from Day 1 of CES (living in Vegas makes it very convenient). The TiVo people had a nice, large, private meeting room away from the crowds of the show floor, and the people I talked to were very nice (and the ladies very attractive, I might add  ).

I haven't read the thread, but here's what I got from them. Decide for yourselves whether this confirms or contradicts what others have posted already.

TiVo Series 3, due out "this calendar year." Features include, but not limited to:
* HD support up to 1080i
* dual tuners
* two CableCard slots (one per tuner, of course)
* HDMI output
* built-in Ethernet (10/100)
* storage is expandable via external e-SATA drives (no more need to crack open your box)
* built-in drive is 250GB and will store about 30 hrs of HD content or 300 hrs of SD content.

All specs are subject to change, of course, as it still under development, and has a "few glitches to work out" (a slip said by one of the reps). Cost was also "slipped" as between $500-$800, and most likely out last half of '06.

I will try to scan and post the spec sheet I got from them in PDF format for all to see.

Disappointments:
* They could not say whether the CableCard slot would support CC 2.0, but assured me that even if it ran CC 1.0 it would not suffer the same glitches that CC 1.0 has. (Not sure how they can make such a claim, but whatever.)
* Built-in Ethernet is not gigabit.
* No confirmation of any "slingbox-like" capabilities.

Word has it that the Windows Vista Media Center OS has a lot of features that blow this new box away, but I didn't have a chance to see much of Vista when I was there. I will try to report back on it, however.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Hey folks, I brought this Engadget article to the attention of our marketing folks. Don't quote me on this (Dave Z., I'm talking to you especially)


well engadget at least picked up Dave's blurb on series 3 and had better things to say
http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/tivo-announces-series-3-hd-tivo-due-this-year/



from article said:


> The new box looks good, the new remote is backlit, those snazz download capabilities are still in force, and the good times should roll this year, so all is well in TiVo fandom.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

ChuckyBox said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that if I have one of these Series 3 boxes and I put a bunch of programs on my external SATA drive, that I could then plug that drive into my computer and, with a little bit of software...


uhh, yeah, "a little bit of software" that decrypted the encrypted files. Plus, nobody knows if the file format will be the same -- presumably it won't be, since the external drives won't be 'married' the same way dual drive systems are now, because dual drive systems can be divorced back to single drive systems.

(Just like I sure wish I had a "little bit of software" to find the recordings on my corrupted XS32 drive.. I'm keeping a backup in case someone DOES figure out something about the format someday, since I suspect they're using a very simplistic file format -- unlike the much more reliable Tivo filesystem!)


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Got questions... for whoever can answer them...



ack_thbbft said:


> TiVo Series 3, due out "this calendar year." Features include, but not limited to:


Would love more specific date info... would hope they announce a ballpark date...



ack_thbbft said:


> * HD support up to 1080i
> * dual tuners
> * two CableCard slots (one per tuner, of course)


Per tuner? Don't think that's correct. One is for single stream (CC 1.0) and one for multi-stream (CC 2.0)... right?



ack_thbbft said:


> * HDMI output
> * built-in Ethernet (10/100)
> * storage is expandable via external e-SATA drives (no more need to crack open your box)
> * built-in drive is 250GB and will store about 30 hrs of HD content or 300 hrs of SD content.
> ...


ooof... last half of 2006 is a tough one to swallow... price closer to $500-$600 is easier to swallow than $700 or $800.



ack_thbbft said:


> I will try to scan and post the spec sheet I got from them in PDF format for all to see.


Cool! If you want me to post it where I posted Megazone's photos, let me know.



ack_thbbft said:


> Disappointments:
> * They could not say whether the CableCard slot would support CC 2.0, but assured me that even if it ran CC 1.0 it would not suffer the same glitches that CC 1.0 has. (Not sure how they can make such a claim, but whatever.)


Seems a bizarre claim to me too.
I would think they need to have CC 2.0 support, no? What's the point of a box that will be obsolete when CC 2.0 is released (which is speculated late 2006 or 2007, right?)



ack_thbbft said:


> * Built-in Ethernet is not gigabit.
> * No confirmation of any "slingbox-like" capabilities.
> 
> Word has it that the Windows Vista Media Center OS has a lot of features that blow this new box away, but I didn't have a chance to see much of Vista when I was there. I will try to report back on it, however.


Thanks for the info!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> Per tuner? Don't think that's correct. One is for single stream (CC 1.0) and one for multi-stream (CC 2.0)... right?


you attach one coax cable to the box. Then if your cable co has only cable card 1 you put a CC 1 in each slot to have dual tuners. If you have a CC 2 card from cable co then you put that in one slot and have access to two tuners.

so the TiVo will indeed support either Cable card 1 or Cable card 2 depending on what your cable Co will give you. nice future proofing and very needed to drive sales.

oh and the word is that two analog tuners are in there as well so you can just hook up cable with extended basic cable and have two tuners with no cable cards



> ooof... last half of 2006 is a tough one to swallow... price closer to $500-$600 is easier to swallow than $700 or $800.


 my buy in is 400$ so it may be next year before I pick one up.


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## dr_mal (Mar 21, 2001)

mattack said:


> uhh, yeah, "a little bit of software" that decrypted the encrypted files. Plus, nobody knows if the file format will be the same -- presumably it won't be, since the external drives won't be 'married' the same way dual drive systems are now, because dual drive systems can be divorced back to single drive systems.


AFAIK, the shows stored on a TiVo aren't encrypted - they're just plain ol' MPEG2 streams. Obviously, any cable streams unlocked by the CableCard would be encrypted and unreadable (until some hacker cracks the encryption) on a PC.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

ack_thbbft said:


> Cost was also "slipped" as between $500-$800, and most likely out last half of '06.


I have no problem with the early adopting price today but come Q3/Q4 2006 the Comcast box will be out or at least almost out. It will be real hard to part with over $500 at that point when the alternative will be the same capabilities on a Free DVR and maybe $15 per month.

I feel strongly that it will be a great box that will miss the main part of its market, compromised by their own software on another platform.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you attach one coax cable to the box. Then if your cable co has only cable card 1 you put a CC 1 in each slot to have dual tuners. If you have a CC 2 card from cable co then you put that in one slot and have access to two tuners.


So I was 1/2 right, and ack was half right ... LOL



DoubleDAZ said:


> so the TiVo will indeed support either Cable card 1 or Cable card 2 depending on what your cable Co will give you. nice future proofing and very needed to drive sales.
> 
> oh and the word is that two analog tuners are in there as well so you can just hook up cable with extended basic cable and have two tuners with no cable cards
> 
> my buy in is 400$ so it may be next year before I pick one up.


Well, if it's not out to 4th quarter 2006 ("late 2006") it might be that long anyway... but there introductory price of $500-$800 might be hard to swallow depending on what else is out and available by then.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

TiVoPhish said:


> I would think they need to have CC 2.0 support, no?


No.

The only thing to missing as far as interesting card capability is multistream, which is due out mid 2006. But since you only have two tuners, and can put in two cc1.0 cards, that is more of a convenience only feature.

The only thing 2.0 gets you is interactive access to the cable company's proprietary network

Maybe you feel a great urge for doing horse betting, Shopping network bidding, PPV or VOD from a proprietary closed network. If you feel like shopping in a store where they only have one brand of everything, then maybe 2.0 is for you.

But I can get all that stuff from a dandy non proprietary network where prices are not controlled by one entity. Maybe you've heard of it. It's called the internet.

2.0? Thanks, but no thanks


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

mattack said:


> uhh, yeah, "a little bit of software" that decrypted the encrypted files. Plus, nobody knows if the file format will be the same -- presumably it won't be, since the external drives won't be 'married' the same way dual drive systems are now, because dual drive systems can be divorced back to single drive systems.


I was actually thinking that the "little bit of software" would come from TiVo itself, but considering the speed with which hackers got TiVo recordings on the PSP and iPod, I guess it could come from someone else.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> You guys should start by spelling Shanan's name correctly.


  Oh my god. That must be why they haven't accepted me into the fan club.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> No.
> 
> The only thing to missing as far as interesting card capability is multistream, which is due out mid 2006. But since you only have two tuners, and can put in two cc1.0 cards, that is more of a convenience only feature.
> 
> ...


Wrong thinking. If you're buying a $600 set top box it should have access to EVERYTHING your system is capable of. If it can get stuff from the internet, great... if it can get 2.0 content, great. It shouldn't lock me out of the programs I want to pay for, because hey, then you've just illiminated your own argument. It's ME who should have that choice, not TiVo or anyone else.

I already get my video from a whole variety of places, internet included. But I also want access to the On-Demand Anime network (just as an example) offered by Cable and if TiVo's box makes it so I can't get that it's a huge downside.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

nhaigh said:


> I have no problem with the early adopting price today but come Q3/Q4 2006 the Comcast box will be out or at least almost out. It will be real hard to part with over $500 at that point when the alternative will be the same capabilities on a Free DVR and maybe $15 per month.


It is a little hazardous to assume much if anything about the capabilities of the...err Comcast Tivo**

Comcast controls the specs on the Moto Tivo, just like DirecTv did. They can and will block features, just as with DirecTv. For example, do you think you are going to get access to Video off the internet that allows you to avoid paying Comcast for the same content? Not on a box they paid for you are not.

**Time out- can we just call the Comcast Tivo by something different? It's going to get ambiguous when we have a Comcast SciAtl Tivo, a Comcast Moto Tivo, and a Comcast Panny Tivo.

Why don't we just start calling it the Moto Tivo?


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Justin Thyme said:


> It is a little hazardous to assume much if anything about the capabilities of the...err Comcast Tivo**
> 
> Comcast controls the specs on the Moto Tivo, just like DirecTv did. They can and will block features, just as with DirecTv. For example, do you think you are going to get access to Video off the internet that allows you to avoid paying Comcast for the same content? Not on a box they paid for you are not.
> 
> ...


I'm just calling it the Comcast TiVo because I beleive TiVo Pony said it was to be available on the Motorola box and I took that to be the only one for now.

As for feature set, I beleive it will get a lot of it though I agree we don't yet know what. What I'm loking for if MRV and TTG which will mean TiVo Desktop amd thus transfer to iPod I hope though that last bit hasn't been promised.

The Comcast press release states "*In addition, the service will showcase TiVo's home networking, multimedia, and broadband capabilities.* ".

Comcast Press Release


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

TiVoPhish said:


> I already get my video from a whole variety of places, internet included.


Not on that cable provided box you aren't.



TiVoPhish said:


> It shouldn't lock me out of the programs I want to pay for...


 Lock out?!?! You are very confused about who is conducting the lock out. CableLabs controls the 2.0 spec. By creating a spec that no CE company can agree to, cablelabs is Locking out third parties from the proprietary networks of Cableco's, not the third party box.

You seem to not really understand who is controlling what. It's very important if you are interested in assigning blame.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> We always assign new TiVo Service Number prefixes to brand new platforms. I will tell you that the "4" in "648" means the same thing as the "4" in the existing prefixes 140, 240 and 540.


That's the kind of knowledgeable, helpful answer that we look to you TiVo guys for. 

Actually, I was kind of kidding about the whole thing, but now that I think about it, the "8" is kind of interesting...

Also, I want one of the Series 3 boxes. You should sell me one. I have money and I'm willing to use it.


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## adavidw (Feb 23, 2000)

I went looking for more info on the e-sata standard and found this page, with this puzzling quote:


> *At the present time, some PVRs (a few models from TiVo) and Set Top Boxes are equipped with this new eSATA connector.


What do they know that we don't, and how long have they known it?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

nhaigh said:


> What I'm loking for if MRV and TTG which will mean TiVo Desktop amd thus transfer to iPod I hope though that bit hasn't been promised.


I think all of that is a safe bet. In fact I think Comcast would scream murder if it didn't have the portable video support.

The main problem Comcast will have is inbound internet video content and services that compete with comcast services and content.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> I already get my video from a whole variety of places, internet included. But I also want access to the On-Demand Anime network (just as an example) offered by Cable and if TiVo's box makes it so I can't get that it's a huge downside.


well we are back to that whole TiVo can not do anymore than what the cable companies and CEA ratify together and the interactive features are really what is being fought over more so then multituner cards, for obvious reasons. CC2.0 with interactivity wont be seen before 2007

no reason you can not have a CC TiVo and a set top box hooked up to your TV though.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Justin Thyme said:


> The main problem Comcast will have is inbound internet video content and services that compete with comcast services and content.


That's a fair comment, but for that I could buy a cheap Series II TiVo and run it side by side with my Comcast Moto  TiVo.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Not on that cable provided box you aren't.


No, but on the exact same TV.



Justin Thyme said:


> Lock out?!?! You are very confused about who is conducting the lock out. CableLabs controls the 2.0 spec. By creating a spec that no CE company can agree to, cablelabs is Locking out third parties from the proprietary networks of Cableco's, not the third party box.


No... the CC 2.0 spec is supposed to allow bidirectional support, hence the card from the specific company that needs to work in the stand-alone box to get such content. If TiVo HD isn't CC 2.0 compatible, who's the one keeping me from the content then (without having to set up multiple boxes with multiple fees)?



Justin Thyme said:


> You seem to not really understand who is controlling what. It's very important if you are interested in assigning blame.


No, I think you are quick to argue. First it's my cable company's fault because they didn't release the spec for cable card support so TiVo couldn't make the box... now it's their fault for giving me a 2.0 card that TiVo HD can't support... that's was the whole point of the FCC ruling, was it not? I should accept a box that connects to the internet without 2.0 support, but I shouldn't accept a box that can't connect to the internet (but has full access to bidirectional content)... BOTH options are limiting... no?


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well we are back to that whole TiVo can not do anymore than what the cable companies and CEA ratify together and the interactive features are really what is being fought over more so then multituner cards, for obvious reasons. CC2.0 with interactivity wont be seen before 2007
> 
> no reason you can not have a CC TiVo and a set top box hooked up to your TV though.


Wasn't an argument on my part... but I thought the whole point of CC 2.0 support was to provide maximum programming options.

For what you're suggestion, there's no reason I can't have a series 2 hooked up to my HD DVR settop box. It makes the TiVo redundant unless you are THAT dedicated to the TiVo system (and admittedly, some are).

I think most people would like less equipment, not more.

From what I'm gathering, this arguement seems pointless anyway... doesn't it appear to be the case that TiVo HD WILL in fact offer CC 2.0 support (or at least the option to upgrade via software to 2.0 support)? Why wouldn't they? Why the multistream card slot? Why release a brand new product that would be limiting in function the minute it hits the streets (or the minute 2.0 cards are widely available)?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> Wasn't an argument on my part... but I thought the whole point of CC 2.0 support was to provide maximum programming options.
> 
> For what you're suggestion, there's no reason I can't have a series 2 hooked up to my HD DVR settop box. It makes the TiVo redundant unless you are THAT dedicated to the TiVo system (and admittedly, some are).
> 
> ...


it will let you put in a CC2.0 card and get multituner support. Interactive functions are unknown since the ratification is stalled in the fight between cable guys and CE guys. That was my point. TiVo can not say its design will work adn also there is no warranty that just because interactive features can be accesd that they can be used by a TiVo.

and yes you could stay with an SD TiVo - they will be around and supported fro quite some time as TiVo will sell them agressively to the analog cable market as a low end unit. But after using that SA box for X months my bet is you will want the TiVo interface back. Now if you moved to a Moxi box then all bets are off, but I have yet to hear good things about the SA box.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> it will let you put in a CC2.0 card and get multituner support. Interactive functions are unknown since the ratification is stalled in the fight between cable guys and CE guys. That was my point. TiVo can not say its design will work adn also there is no warranty that just because interactive features can be accesd that they can be used by a TiVo.


Then I misunderstood... my mistake... thanks for clarifying. Could you point me in the right direction to read more about CC 2.0 support and fight you're referring to?

But wait... isn't Microsoft promising CC 2.0 support? Or is what you're saying that it's less about the 2.0 support and more an issue of some of the interactive features being built in to 2.0 cards?



ZeoTiVo said:


> and yes you could stay with an SD TiVo - they will be around and supported fro quite some time as TiVo will sell them agressively to the analog cable market as a low end unit. But after using that SA box for X months my bet is you will want the TiVo interface back. Now if you moved to a Moxi box then all bets are off, but I have yet to hear good things about the SA box.


Mixed reviews honestly... I've heard what you're saying and also the exact opposite (that Moxi sucks more, LOL) -- A lot has changed in just six months on the S-A boxes and it seems my area always has the latest software push, but hey, I'll surely find out tomorrow now won't I? 

Almost had a mini-funeral for my TiVo tonight I was so sad to disconnect it from my semi-big screen HDTV 

edit to add:

I found this and it helped me undersatnd better:

"A CableCARD version 2.0 standard is currently in the works to address many of the issues (uni-directional issues). The new CableCARD 2.0 standard should support high definition digital cable, two way features such as Pay-Per-View, Video On Demand, and advanced electronic programming guide information and allow for up to 5 channels to be tuned in at once, however the standard is not currently finalized and equipment with CableCARD 2.0 support is not available. CableCARD version 2.0 will not be compatible with existing CableCARD enabled products. "


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> edit to add:
> 
> I found this and it helped me undersatnd better:
> 
> "A CableCARD version 2.0 standard is currently in the works to address many of the issues (uni-directional issues). The new CableCARD 2.0 standard should support high definition digital cable, two way features such as Pay-Per-View, Video On Demand, and advanced electronic programming guide information and allow for up to 5 channels to be tuned in at once, however the standard is not currently finalized and equipment with CableCARD 2.0 support is not available. CableCARD version 2.0 will not be compatible with existing CableCARD enabled products. "


and DT_DC is the user here who has a really good grasp of what is going on with this.

check his post way earlier in this thread
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3647208#post3647208


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

From Cablecard 2.0 specification:

- - - - -

1) The CableCard has a new hardware version added which can handle multiple streams, for PIP and multituner DVR. Cards can include an optional cablemodem for communicating with the headend. These changes are almost a non-issue for Consumers, since replacement cards are cheap or supplied by cableco.

2) CableCard "HOSTS" (microcontroller & firmware in your TV supporting CC) will come in 3 'flavors'... A) Unidirectional - no modem B) Bidirectional - modem in CC C) Bidirectional - modem in host.

So... if your TV has a built in modem to communicate with the headend, OR, it supports (possible firmware upgrade) such a modem IN the CableCard, then your TV will be able to be upgraded to CableCard 2.0. If NOT, then you're limited to 1-way CC forever.

- - - - -

How would you interpret that as relative to TiVo?

edit to add:

According to this:
http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/1469/multistream_cablecard_status
"However, the more interesting news is the status of CableCARD 2.0 on track for 2006 deployment."
dated: October 05, 2005


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Justin Thyme said:


> No.
> 
> The only thing to missing as far as interesting card capability is multistream, which is due out mid 2006. But since you only have two tuners, and can put in two cc1.0 cards, that is more of a convenience only feature.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Do you think that if a 2.0 Cablecard is used that this will *replace* the TiVo interface, a mixture of both, or a clear cut choice?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

adavidw said:


> I went looking for more info on the e-sata standard and found this page, with this puzzling quote:
> 
> What do they know that we don't, and how long have they known it?


You are right. Probably the person was thinking Moto, and wrote Tivo instead or perhaps they were using Tivo as a generic term for all DVRs. The latest Motorolla DCT-6412 has a SATA connector. So does the Sci-Atl 8300. Not all providers enable them though.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> From Cablecard 2.0 specification:
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> ...


they would rely on a modem in the Cable Card itself and would have to add software to utilize it and a GUI to go with it. The kicker is that the GUI would have to be generic enough for all the cable providers. Most likely this could be done to a limited extent - just like on a cable card TV - but what if cablevison provides interactive traffic cams as a premium feature to have something that generic 3rd parties do not provide for?

so most likely PPV and VOD could come on line in a generic way. list of items and the cable company knows who you are and does the billing already but TiVo should not get any cut of that and wont so the incentive is solely to keep you the customer happy by giving you access to the anime from cablevison. Good incentive for a generic interface but not so much for a lot of effort on it.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ps for Zeo...

Since we were talking about the SA (Scientific-Atlanta) 8300HD earlier, there was some news from someone who was at CES (posted on another forum) that might interest you... it ALSO includes TiVo "news" (or at least point of interest)

- - - - - -

The 8300 is also the platform for the DVD unit (MCP-100) soon to hit the market (done deal). It IS the 8300, as is, with a DVD burner added. This was cool! Anything with copy free will play back in any DVD player, and anything with content protection will playback on CPRM players (somewhat common). It WILL burn HD to DVD, but since there is no standard format chosen at this time, it will only be playable on the unit it was recorded on. The future direct to disk technology for downloading movies, games, CD's, etc sounds cool once implemented. The Home media option was also cool. Playing back files from a laptop, etc, but no timeframes were given for that technology. I have a seperate thread for the MCP-100, so I will go on more over there.
The multiroom for sending SD is gaining ground in many cable systems, but users want the HD version. SA is close, but are investigating better (more stable) methods for sending multiple HD streams in real world conditions (crappy wiring in homes).
The live cable on the phone demo was actually really much better than I imagined. With the network support in place, the rollout seems to be a done deal. Sprint, and all the major cable companies, which already announced the feature, are expecting a huge penetration in the market.

To me, the biggest news for you guys, was the OCAP integration, supported by and displayed by SA. OCAP (Open Cable) is the gateway that Tivo needs to run their software on cable system STB's. It also means that everyone else in the game is writing software too. There were demonstrations from Moxi, Diego, and a few others, with their own IPG and interactive software. These companies are meeting with corporate cable cos trying to sell their version, instead of the standard SA supplied IPG. SA is right there promoting and supporting them. I expect to see new IPG integration, games, better callerID (with digital phone) local business services, etc, etc, relatively soon. The new javascript apps are looking great.

source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6858142&&#post6858142
- - - - -



ZeoTiVo said:


> they would rely on a modem in the Cable Card itself and would have to add software to utilize it and a GUI to go with it. The kicker is that the GUI would have to be generic enough for all the cable providers. Most likely this could be done to a limited extent - just like on a cable card TV - but what if cablevison provides interactive traffic cams as a premium feature to have something that generic 3rd parties do not provide for?


But would it rely on the modem for CC 2.0 support if the box has already been designed to be CC 2.0 ready, or CC 2.0 update-ready (via that modem you're referring to). Does that make sense?



ZeoTiVo said:


> so most likely PPV and VOD could come on line in a generic way. list of items and the cable company knows who you are and does the billing already but TiVo should not get any cut of that and wont so the incentive is solely to keep you the customer happy by giving you access to the anime from cablevison. Good incentive for a generic interface but not so much for a lot of effort on it.


Not a direct cut, but a cut that keeps customers. I mean, Anime On Demand may not be the best example, but HBO on demand is (which has been becoming pretty popular around my parts). I'm not even a big fan of VOD in general, but there ARE things I'd like to have access to ... and I'm sure most consumers would. A lot of people seem to agree VOD is definitely going to be something the average consumer will want, so it makes sense to me TiVo would do everything they can to provide it (through CC 2.0 or their own VOD service or ____?)


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

nhaigh said:


> That's a fair comment, but for that I could buy a cheap Series II TiVo and run it side by side with my Comcast Moto  TiVo.


Not if you want HD content, you aren't. Also, much of the content on the net will be transfered in Mpeg4 form to save bandwidth. There will have to be a downconverter- I think it likely Tivo will one day create one of those, but all we know about is Mpeg2->mpeg4 converter needed for PSP and iPod, not the other way around (could be, could be, but just wishful thinking now).

Further, I think it reasonable to expect that significant improvements would be made to network transfer speed- that is, I wouldn't be at all surprized if a Tivo3 MRV took 5 minutes for an hour long show on a wired network.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> I don't know, it may actually mean that both are closer than we've been led to believe. Keep in mind that there are probably about 100,000 Christmas 40-hour Series 2 boxes still to be activated. If TiVo were to start flaunting a new box (or boxes) that would be available, say, next month, they might get a lot of returns.
> 
> As for Comcast, well, DirecTV has been making a lot of noise at the show, and revenge is a dish best served cold...
> 
> ....


Hmmm. I like the way you think.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ack_thbbft said:


> .... They could not say whether the CableCard slot would support CC 2.0, but assured me that even if it ran CC 1.0 it would not suffer the same glitches that CC 1.0 has. (Not sure how they can make such a claim, but whatever.) ....


What glitches are there in CC 1.0?

Thanks


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> But would it rely on the modem for CC 2.0 support if the box has already been designed to be CC 2.0 ready, or CC 2.0 update-ready (via that modem you're referring to). Does that make sense?
> 
> Not a direct cut, but a cut that keeps customers. I mean, Anime On Demand may not be the best example, but HBO on demand is (which has been becoming pretty popular around my parts). I'm not even a big fan of VOD in general, but there ARE things I'd like to have access to ... and I'm sure most consumers would. A lot of people seem to agree VOD is definitely going to be something the average consumer will want, so it makes sense to me TiVo would do everything they can to provide it (through CC 2.0 or their own VOD service or ____?)


it is the cablemodem embedded in the cable card 2.0 itself. it is the cablemodem that communicates to the head end and identifies you and whatever request. so sure simple PPV and VOD can be supported assuming the final ratified standard does not veer from what TiVo designed for.(most likely wont) but for all the new fangled stuff for the SA 8000 boxes you posted above - if any of that requires two way how is TiVo supposed to generically support that.

short answer it does not - it competes instead on the less generic stuff by providing much the same but from its own sources. perhaps even with "PPV and VOD" via internet downloads from google, Yahoo or MCE box.

and so for me talking to the cable company holds little interest as TiVo seems more open to the coming new ways to get content and I read the stuff for the SciAtl box as ctachup and TiVo does 80% of it already in a version 1 form and is getting ready to put out a much better version 2 of it this year.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> it is the cablemodem embedded in the cable card 2.0 itself. it is the cablemodem that communicates to the head end and identifies you and whatever request. so sure simple PPV and VOD can be supported assuming the final ratified standard does not veer from what TiVo designed for.(most likely wont) but for all the new fangled stuff for the SA 8000 boxes you posted above - if any of that requires two way how is TiVo supposed to generically support that.


I understand what you're saying... kinda... I did realize the modem was in the cablecard itself (as one of the options)... was wondering if it's possible TiVo thought about that ahead of time and made the unit capable of connecting to get the updates in a less generic way... (almost like a separate part of the system that couple accept the updates and interpret)... I don't know exactly how to explain what I mean... so I'll skip it 



ZeoTiVo said:


> short answer it does not - it competes instead on the less generic stuff by providing much the same but from its own sources. perhaps even with "PPV and VOD" via internet downloads from google, Yahoo or MCE box.


I agree that would be appealing... though it's all still a "perhaps" at this point. Which I suppose is also where we are with CC 2.0 support (more than generic).



ZeoTiVo said:


> and so for me talking to the cable company holds little interest as TiVo seems more open to the coming new ways to get content and I read the stuff for the SciAtl box as ctachup and TiVo does 80% of it already in a version 1 form and is getting ready to put out a much better version 2 of it this year.


Well you kind-of HAVE to talk to the cable company if you want the benefits of a CC unit  -- but I do hear what you're saying. Regardless, I would have had to make the jump to cable, since Dish was probably never going to offer a TiVo solution, or be reasonably compatible with one. It would have been silly for me not to take the free 8300HD from Cablevision.

Problem is, SA is already offering the dual tuner HD with SATA support, and the new unit at CES also has network connection ability (though nothing has been officially announced yet as what it does. Please trust me, I don't think the SA units are better than TiVo, but I do have to recognize that right NOW they will do what I want... time-shift TV watching, recording programs (along with "seasons passes"), dual tuner, SATA support and most importantly HDTV. I can't say the TiVo HD will be "better"... it sounds like there will be tradeoffs... and maybe perfectly acceptable ones. And they absolutely could be in TiVo's favor.

Do keep in mind what I've said about the SA box... the network support, the OCAP support, the fact they provide already to Comcast... and the possibility TiVo software COULD (could) be pushed to those boxes as well. If it's possible they'll be doing so for the Panasonic and Samsung boxes, it's also possible for the SA boxes.

Like I've said before, most people don't talk about this stuff, let alone understand it (and I sure don't understand all of it)... all they care about is that it works. I want to HOPE that TiVo stays the best solution for all of it! Right now for me, it just can't be... but that doesn't mean I've abandoned ship.... just a Phish taking a swim


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

rorschach said:


> Looks temporary to me. It actually has a USB logo next to the connector on the back. Might be a stock enclosure refitted for demo purposes. The design doesn't match either.


Yeah, I caught the USB logo on the enclosure, but it is SATA. The answer I got was "It is just a prototype."

And there are no plans to support USB drives, I asked.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

megazone said:


> Yeah, I caught the USB logo on the enclosure, but it is SATA. The answer I got was "It is just a prototype."
> 
> And there are no plans to support USB drives, I asked.


Hey, Zone, I think I speak for everyone when I say many, many thanks for your work yesterday. You are a hero. Not only were you the first person to provide any real information about the Series 3, but your report from the TiVo booth was far, far more valuable that what Engadget gave us. At a time when the media were in a total information glut overload meltdown, and TiVo wasn't saying much, you came through for us.

Thanks again.

(Someone else at the show posted in this thread, too. Unfortunately it is on a previous page and I can't scroll back to get the name. But thanks to you, too.)


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> Hey, Zone, I think I speak for everyone when I say many, many thanks for your work yesterday. You are a hero. Not only were you the first person to provide any real information about the Series 3, but your report from the TiVo booth was far, far more valuable that what Engadget gave us. At a time when the media were in a total information glut overload meltdown, and TiVo wasn't saying much, you came through for us....


Not only far, far more valuable, but ACCURATE. Engadget was totally wrong.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> it is the cablemodem embedded in the cable card 2.0 itself.





TiVoPhish said:


> I did realize the modem was in the cablecard itself (as one of the options)


Sigh ...

No, no, no, no ... no.

Cable modems (and other hardware required for two-way functionality) are NOT embedded in 2.0 cards ... or part of 2.0 cards ... or in the cards ... or however you want to describe it.

The cable modem (and QPSK modulator and OCAP environment and other harware required for two-way functionality) are part of a HOST ... for example a DVR or TV or STB or whatever ...

I would suggest reading the OpenCable 2.0 Host Specifications:
http://www.opencable.com/downloads/specs/OC-SP-HOST2.0-CFR-I06-050708.pdf

Specifically ... you can look at pg. 14 which pretty clearly lays out what must be included in the HOST ... and what the role of the CableCard is ...

The cards ONLY handle decryption / encryption ...

And there are ONLY two types of cards:
SCards - Single Stream Cards - can decrypt a single stream
MCards - Multi Stream Cards - can decrypt multiple streams

All the things required for bidirectional functionality ... that's ALL requirements on the HOST.

If a HOST has a QAM tuner, QPSK demodulator, and a few other goodies ... it can be a one-way CableCard host.

If a HOST has the above AND a cable modem, QPSK modulator, an OCAP environment, and a few other goodies ... it can be a two-way CableCard host.

One-way vs. Two-way ... the differences are in the HOST ... not in the cards.


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## ack_thbbft (Dec 30, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> What glitches are there in CC 1.0?
> 
> Thanks


Many owners of CC 1.0 setups, including myself, have learned that CC 1.0 is buggier than a bait shop. For example:

* Digital channels often go out, requiring you to reset the TV (which also means losing any user-defined presets). I've seen this reported on Sony and Mitsubishi TVs (particularly since I was considering those two brands at the time I bought), so I assume it is actually a CC issue.

* When a CC firmware update is being downloaded from the cable provider it can render your TV completely unusable until it is finished (you can't even watch other sources on the TV, it completely powers down). In my own experience, the CC firmware update _never _finished, and I had to have a new card installed before I could use my TV again. (At first I thought my TV was defective, but the cable provider's supervisor confirmed it was a known CC issue.)

* TV guides downloaded via CC are often not updated with correct programming information. (Thank goodness TiVo keeps it's guide more reliable, for the most part.)

Anyway, the CC 2.0 spec is supposed to address many of these issues, which is why I hope the new Series 3 TiVo will fully support it. But, as usual at these events, I was given the standard "can't say, still under development" schpiel.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I haven't seen this posted yet, but I am assuming that, since TiVo is touting "up to 300 hours of recording space", that would mean "up to 45 hours of HD recording space." My calculations are based on the Sony DHG units which boast 30/200 and 60/400 in their HDD250/500 models. That translates to a factor of .15 (HD/SD). Has TiVo said anything specifically about HD recording capacities?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> All the things required for bidirectional functionality ... that's ALL requirements on the HOST.
> 
> If a HOST has a QAM tuner, QPSK demodulator, and a few other goodies ... it can be a one-way CableCard host.
> 
> ...


oh sorry. Typing late last night - I thought it was your post DT_DC where it was said the CC 2.0 could have a cablemodem on it for bi-directional. I wnet with it as some mew part of the wrangling over CC 2.

so are you saying the TiVo DVR would need an OCAP environment to do bidrectional? Could that just be java code running on the TiVo ?


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> oh sorry. Typing late last night - I thought it was your post DT_DC where it was said the CC 2.0 could have a cablemodem on it for bi-directional. I wnet with it as some mew part of the wrangling over CC 2.
> 
> so are you saying the TiVo DVR would need an OCAP environment to do bidrectional? Could that just be java code running on the TiVo ?


I'm really starting to dislike the "CableCard 2.0" moniker as it's a bit ... misleading and seems to lead to these kinds of misinterpretations ...

But anyway ...

Yes ... under the most recent CableLabs specs (OpenCable Host Device 2.0) ... for a Tivo (or any other host) to provide two-way / bidirectional service it would need:

All the hardware for one-way / unidirectional services AND the following (which are NOT required for one-way services) ...
+ Cable Modem (DOCSIS)
+ QPSK Modulator
+ OCAP environment

That's all in the host (Tivo) ... not the card(s).

Yes ... you _could_ implement an OCAP environment purely as software middleware running on the CPU. But ... like a JVM ... or MPEG encoding ... etc ... I don't think that's going to be the most desireable way to go for CE devices. What's cheaper and faster ... an embedded JVM on a chip or a CPU running a software JVM? An MPEG encoding chip or MPEG encoding software on the CPU?

And then ... which is cheaper and faster ... software OCAP middleware running on the CPU ... or an embedded OCAP middleware chip?

And of course if your looking at a bunch of CPUs / products already deployed that you may want to upgrade ... well ... are those CPUs powerful enough to do all the other functions they need to do AND run an OCAP middleware stack? Oh ... and if so ... then why the heck did you overpower (and overcharge) for the original system in the first place?


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## shepler76 (Oct 29, 2004)

Any word if TiVo will have a Non-HD CC box? It would be great if they did, I only need 1 HD box but would stil like dual tuners and be able to receive digital cable in one of my other rooms without have to pay for an additional HD box at that price.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> I'm really starting to dislike the "CableCard 2.0" moniker as it's a bit ... misleading and seems to lead to these kinds of misinterpretations ...
> 
> But anyway ...
> 
> ...


thanks for the clarity on this :up: 
the Java thought from me was jsut along the lines of can TiVo load an update for what bidirectional will be if/when they ever decide to support it. The engineering details of how to do it efficiently have perhaps been worked out in the box, perhaps not. I notice NO open the lid pictures of this new series 3


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the Java thought from me was jsut along the lines of can TiVo load an update for what bidirectional will be if/when they ever decide to support it.


Yes ... and it's a good thought ...

Just keep in mind that just because it _can_ be done on a CPU doesn't neccesarily mean it can be done on _this particular_ CPU. CPUs in CE devices aren't quite the same as those in your desktop.

Personally though ... I wouldn't hold my breath for unidirectional hosts being designed for 'upgradeability' to bidirectional functionality. Too many upfront costs that would have to be added to the price of the unit ... with no guarauntee that it would ever be possible (bidirectional is still in flux).


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

In terms of CPU, I've already heard a rumor mill saying this box is 'Intel Inside' - (or will be) which is of course a huge change and no doubt an increase in processing power.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lajohn27 said:


> In terms of CPU, I've already heard a rumor mill saying this box is 'Intel Inside' - (or will be) which is of course a huge change and no doubt an increase in processing power.


yah megazone, yell hey that girl is topless over there and quick open that sucker up and snap some pictures  just kidding -- sort of


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

There is a thread about the Series 3 box over on digg and someone posted:



> I am getting a Series3 BOX from TiVo in a week or so (part of a BETA testing program) and ill be posting the reviews and images of everthing about the unit on Skatter Tech...


Now this seems hard to believe because 1) it doesn't seem like TiVo is ready to beta test this box (comment, megazone?) and 2) I would think TiVo would be a bit more careful in their hardware testing than to give a box to some jackass who would post everything on a web site.

On the other hand, the guy seems semi-legit. If the Series 3 really goes to beta next week, then it is probably coming out sooner than mid-to-late 2006.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

ChuckyBox said:


> There is a thread about the Series 3 box over on digg and someone posted:
> 
> Now this seems hard to believe because 1) it doesn't seem like TiVo is ready to beta test this box (comment, megazone?) and 2) I would think TiVo would be a bit more careful in their hardware testing than to give a box to some jackass who would post everything on a web site.
> 
> On the other hand, the guy seems semi-legit. If the Series 3 really goes to beta next week, then it is probably coming out sooner than mid-to-late 2006.


IMHO there is no way a Beta tester would be doing this. It doesn't mean there is no Beta underway but it does mean the guys claim is BS.


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

nhaigh said:


> IMHO there is no way a Beta tester would be doing this. It doesn't mean there is no Beta underway but it does mean the guys claim is BS.


Or maybe he's a very stupid, and soon to be ex-, Beta tester.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

dt_dc said:


> Yes ... and it's a good thought ...
> 
> Just keep in mind that just because it _can_ be done on a CPU doesn't neccesarily mean it can be done on _this particular_ CPU. CPUs in CE devices aren't quite the same as those in your desktop.
> 
> Personally though ... I wouldn't hold my breath for unidirectional hosts being designed for 'upgradeability' to bidirectional functionality. Too many upfront costs that would have to be added to the price of the unit ... with no guarauntee that it would ever be possible (bidirectional is still in flux).


dtdc and zeo -- I appreciate your back and forth about this... the way dt explained it was kinda (sorta) the way I understood it, and was a bit how I was trying to phrase the question to zeo about upgradeability -- but not being anywhere near an expert in cablecards or STBes, it's all just abstract concepts to me. Anyway, thanks for the clarification.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

I seriously doubt this person is a Beta Tester. I don't think Tivo would just openly give out these new boxes to people without knowing VERY well what they are likely to do with it. Not to mention he would be under a strict NDA so he would be nailed the instant they found out about it. Just my thoughts though.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

dmdeane said:


> Or maybe he's a very stupid, and soon to be ex-, Beta tester.


And, of course, since TiVo folk (employees) watch and post on these forums, I'd say he is definitely now an EX-beta tester (if he was one in the first place).


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> Sigh ...
> 
> No, no, no, no ... no.
> 
> ...


dt_dc
Need some help understanding cablecard.

I have read all i can find at cablelabs website.

I still dont entirely follow.

is an M-card bidirectional(or uni, or whatever we need for interactive stuff)?

Is the M-card cable labs talks about 2.0? I see there is a standard for 2.0 that IS FINAL (or as finalized as the 1.0 standard)- but they only seem to talk about s or m cards not 1.0 or 2.0 cards?

they told the FCC the M-cards are essetnially done wand will be deployed widespread by mid year. SO if an M-card is bi direntcional and can do interactive then this is all done- no?

Also- it seems the CEA has not agreed to the 2.0 standzard but that many CE companies on their own have. So doesn't that mean it's essentially agreed upon in the real world?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> dt_dc
> Need some help understanding cablecard.
> 
> I have read all i can find at cablelabs website.
> ...


well lets see if DT_TC clarified me correctly or not 

the Scard is a single stream of decrypted signal

the Mcard is a multistreams of decrypted signal

the 1.0 standard was all about the card and how it would decrypt a stream, no bidirectional talk at all and the number of streams were not necessarily limited to 1 by the CC 1 standard.

now CC 2 standard is about the parts in the HOST that will allow bidirectional communication for VOD or whatever. It does not change the card itself or if it does it is very little. The cable labs people think the CC2 standard they have is just fine and they all agree on it. The consumer electronics group though that needs to ratify it is crying foul at the things the CC2 standard says a host has to do. So a standard exists but the two groups are at odds with no compromise in sight at the moment.

Do I finally get this DT-DC ?


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

As for the beta testing.. It is *possible* that this box could be going to test phase sooner rather than later.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> is an M-card bidirectional(or uni, or whatever we need for interactive stuff)?


The cards are not "directional" at all. You can plug an MCard into a (theoretical, not yet available) bidirectional host ... and it will work. You can also plug an SCard into a (theoretical, not yet available) bidirectional host ... and it will work.

There is nothing about the cards that allows for (or prohibits) bidirectional functionality. An MCard will work for interactive stuff ... so will an SCard.


MichaelK said:


> Is the M-card cable labs talks about 2.0?


This is why I'm starting to dislike the "CableCard 1.0" and "CableCard 2.0" tags. There's no real easy way to answer this. There's a whole host of specs (Cards, Interfaces, Hosts, Copy Protection, etc etc etc) AND there's also the federal regs and what cable companies are required to support ... when people say "CableCard 1.0" they are usually referring to a specific slice of all that (basically, what we have now) and when people say "CableCard 2.0" they are usually referring to a specific slice of all that (basically, what it was thought the "next" iteration would look like).

Anyway ... the MCards are MCards. No 1.0 or 2.0 about them (technically). Although they are (part of) what people generally refer to as "2.0". But ... they are only a _part_.


MichaelK said:


> they told the FCC the M-cards are essetnially done wand will be deployed widespread by mid year. SO if an M-card is bi direntcional and can do interactive then this is all done- no?


No.

The MCards _should_ be coming mid year.

Ok, fine ... assuming they do.

The specs for what a bidirectional host must do / implement / whatever are _not_ done. Ok, cable says they are basically done and aren't going to change much. The CEA (and Verizon, and probably some other people) say they don't like them and there's probably going to be some argument at the FCC on what to do. No one is going to want to build a bidirectional host to sell to the consumer untill either:

1) The FCC says exactly what the cable companies have to support ... giving manufacturers and consumers confidence the bidirectional host is going to be usefull

or

2) Cable starts deploying their own vision of bidirectional functionality in enough mass / numbers ... giving manufacturers and consumers confidence the bidirectional host is going to be usefull


MichaelK said:


> Also- it seems the CEA has not agreed to the 2.0 standzard but that many CE companies on their own have. So doesn't that mean it's essentially agreed upon in the real world?


Well ...

Keep in mind those CE companies are selling directly to the cable companies. Comcast is buying 200,000 two-way OCAP boxes from Samsung. Samsung isn't selling those directly to consumers. So it's on Comcast's head to make those work (or not) ... not Samsung's. The consumers aren't buying those ... Comcst is leasing them to customers.

This goes to path #2 (vs. path #1 and the argument at the FCC I mentioned) above. Cable is going to be rolling out those boxes. They will tell the FCC that everything is in motion. They will say that Once there's enough mass support by the cable companies ... Samsung can start selling these boxes directly to the customer. Everything is a done deal ... the new CableCard regs should be implemented exactly as they have suggested.

The CEA will say that cable's vision isn't what the FCC / Congress intended. And that while Comcast may be willing to buy these boxes ... the framework does not provide the open-ness that would truly encourage innovation and "navigation devices from competitive sources".

I have no clue what the FCC will do ... but that will determine whether this is all a "done deal" yet ... or not.

Clear as mud?


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

dt_dc said:


> The specs for what a bidirectional host must do / implement / whatever are _not_ done.


Well ... in some ways they were "done" with the 1.0 specs.

You see, the CableCard Host 1.0 spec laid out exactly what must be done to build a bi-directional CableCard host to support two-way services.

However, by the time the CEA and cable companies finished negotiating and arguing (in private and at the FCC) ... the ONLY part of the 1.0 specs they could actually agree to were the parts to allow one-way support / services.

So ... if someone built a bidirectional host according to those specs ... it wouldn't work (now or ever).

We're going through that same process with the CableCard Host 2.0 specs now.

CableLabs may very well "close" some of those 2.0 specs (for example, to allow Samsung to build those OCAP boxes I mentioned above) ... but that doesn't mean that everything is "all set" for bidirectional support. May very well see 3.0 specs ... 4.0 specs ... etc.


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## ack_thbbft (Dec 30, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> There is a thread about the Series 3 box over on digg and someone posted:
> 
> Now this seems hard to believe because 1) it doesn't seem like TiVo is ready to beta test this box (comment, megazone?) and 2) I would think TiVo would be a bit more careful in their hardware testing than to give a box to some jackass who would post everything on a web site.
> 
> On the other hand, the guy seems semi-legit. If the Series 3 really goes to beta next week, then it is probably coming out sooner than mid-to-late 2006.


I can pretty much guarantee you that whoever this guy is who said he is getting a beta box is full of ****e. I personally spoke with the project director for the Series 3 box at CES, and he said there is no beta program at this time, as the hardware hasn't even come close to being finalized yet. Another TiVo exec next to him said that even SHE couldn't get one for testing yet.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ack_thbbft said:


> I can pretty much guarantee you that whoever this guy is who said he is getting a beta box is full of ****e. I personally spoke with the project director for the Series 3 box at CES, and he said there is no beta program at this time, as the hardware hasn't even come close to being finalized yet. Another TiVo exec next to him said that even SHE couldn't get one for testing yet.


that was how I took it , just someone starting a rumor tha the boxes were close to coming out for whatever reason - maybe just to see how far it spread.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

dr_mal said:


> AFAIK, the shows stored on a TiVo aren't encrypted - they're just plain ol' MPEG2 streams.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I could swear that the various Tivo hacking FAQs that talk about getting shows off a Tivo over the network (i.e. after hacking and turning on things like FTP) require you to *TURN OFF* encryption so that you can only successfully use _future_ recordings on the computer you transfer to.


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## dr_mal (Mar 21, 2001)

mattack said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but I could swear that the various Tivo hacking FAQs that talk about getting shows off a Tivo over the network (i.e. after hacking and turning on things like FTP) require you to *TURN OFF* encryption so that you can only successfully use _future_ recordings on the computer you transfer to.


I know that's true for DirecTiVos -- buy my personal experience is only with antiquated Series 1 machines. Perhaps with the advent of MRV on the Series 2 boxes, the shows are now encrypted.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

It is also true for S2 boxes. The recordings are encrypted on disk.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ack_thbbft said:


> I can pretty much guarantee you that whoever this guy is who said he is getting a beta box is full of ****e. I personally spoke with the project director for the Series 3 box at CES, and he said there is no beta program at this time, as the hardware hasn't even come close to being finalized yet. Another TiVo exec next to him said that even SHE couldn't get one for testing yet.


Thanks for the info. Could be this guy was just trying to drive traffic to his web site.

BTW, who were the project director and the exec?


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> Now this seems hard to believe because 1) it doesn't seem like TiVo is ready to beta test this box (comment, megazone?) and 2) I would think TiVo would be a bit more careful in their hardware testing than to give a box to some jackass who would post everything on a web site.


My understanding is that it will be going into testing Real Soon Now. So it is possible this guy *was* a beta tester.

*Was* because I also saw that comment the night it was posted, and a few seconds after I saw it, it was on its way in an email to TiVo's beta coordinator.

And yes, people have leaked details from betas in the past, more than once, and this would not be the first one to do so in an indentifiable way. However, it may be the first time someone pre-announced it.


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