# Lost - OAR 4-24-08



## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

Wow. What a great episode. So much new info to take in.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

I was surprised to see Bem's gambit with his daughter go sour. Notice how Ben manipulates Sayid to become his Terminator in Iraq.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I soooooo didn't expect it to go that way!!! I am in shock right now. Wow.

Are they playing a game??? Is this all a big game to Ben and Charles??? What rules are we talking about? I don't understand! And we still don't know what the smoke monster is. Why not release it sooner so it could've kicked butt BEFORE Alex got shot.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

philw1776 said:


> I was surprised to see *Bem's* gambit with his daughter go sour.


I assume that's a typo, but it really shouldn't be. He IS a B.E.M.!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Lost OAR...

Original Aspect Ratio?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Remind me not to change the rules...

Amazing how they've effectively got us to go from hating Ben, to rooting for him. I look forward to his killing every Widmore guy left


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

hefe said:


> Lost OAR...
> 
> Original Aspect Ratio?


Oops, sorry.


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> And we still don't know what the smoke monster is. Why not release it sooner so it could've kicked butt BEFORE Alex got shot.


Cause it probably would have killed Alex as well...


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Great episode.....terrific return


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

DUSlider said:


> Cause it probably would have killed Alex as well...


I don't know...I don't understand the smoke monster! Seems it kills whoever it thinks deserves to die...but poor Alex wasn't guilty of anything


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> I don't know...I don't understand the smoke monster! Seems it kills whoever it thinks deserves to die...but poor Alex wasn't guilty of anything


Ok, let me rephrase... I don't think Ben wanted to unleash the smoke monster while they had Alex in fear that she would have been injured/killed by the smoke monster or Widmore's group that had come for him, firing wildly at the Smoke monster...

Or, he wasn't expecting the rules to be broken, whatever they are. That said, if he tries/does kill Penny, he'd better watch out for Desmond.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Something else interesting... Why can't Ben kill Charles Widmore?

Also, was that new DHARMA logo on Ben's parka?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I don't remember how to 'spoiler', but I was surprised with the things shown in the previews


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Mike Farrington said:


> Also, was that new DHARMA logo on Ben's parka?


Also, how did Ben hurt his arm, how did he get to the middle of the sahara (didn't see a parachute), and why was he sick


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I assume that's a typo, but it really shouldn't be. He IS a B.E.M.!


Unintended humor. Always the best!


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Remind me not to change the rules...
> 
> Amazing how they've effectively got us to go from hating Ben, to rooting for him. I look forward to his killing every Widmore guy left


Penny!!? She's a stone fox. Desmond will go all Jack Bauer on his ass.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Also, how did Ben hurt his arm, how did he get to the middle of the sahara (didn't see a parachute), and why was he sick


However the polar bear got there.
Aren't the reverse coordinates of the island,.. Tunisia?
I read that somewhere.

Wow wow wow. Great Ep.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> However the polar bear got there.
> Aren't the reverse coordinates of the island,.. Tunisia?
> I read that somewhere.


Uh, no...unless the island is New Zealand!


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

i get a god vs devil vibe off this war between ben and widmore.. the island is almost like an eden.. ok, sorry for throwing in some religion.. but this war with certain rules, they "know" they can't kill the other, the light and dark in the bedroom.. almost seems like a game with ben trying to corrupt locke since he is so full of faith.. sorry for the religious angle, but thats just the feeling i got after watching this


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## TiMo Tim (Jul 20, 2001)

Maybe Ben *is* one of the good guys???





Nahhhhhhhh.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I was soooooo happy when I realized it was the 24th today and a new LOST was on.

And boy, did this _not_ disappoint! Favorite part: Jack setting up Bernard as a spy on the boat people. Saw it coming a mile away... but tricky!

I have to say, I'm really loving the flash-forward thing. I thought it might make things less suspenseful but it really doesn't: every time the island dynamic changes I find myself considering how this change might end up leading to the Oceanic 6 and the future we saw: for example when Sawyer took that group back to the beach. And the way Sayid asked Ben how he got off the island, it made me think maybe Sayid never gets back there at all. And if Widmore couldn't find the island when Ben was talking to him in his bedroom, then what happened to that ship? It _had_ the island coordinates.

My biggest "WTH?" today: why didn't Ben have a rifle trained on the mercenary who had a gun pointed at Alex? He could have said "she doesn't mean anything to me, and if you kill her you'll die next". Probably Alex would still have died but at least they would have gotten one and maybe two of the mercenary team in exchange.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Did current Ben time travel to Tunisia using something in the basement?


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Okay, here's my crazy prediction after watching this episode:

I think Charles Widmore was part of the "Black Rock" crew. If not the captain.

And Ben can't kill him because the Island won't let him.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Did current Ben time travel to Tunisia using something in the basement?


No. Those two events were seperate-you can tell from the bruises on "present" Ben and the tan of "Future" Ben. Him going into the basement was all about summoning Cerebus. Plus in the Future Ben is wearing a Dharma parka and has a deep cut on his arm. I'm assuming we'll see him in a struggle to time travel in an upcoming episode and get cut by someone right before he does.

I love the time warp with Doc Ray being alive and dead at the same time.

So here's what I'm pondering. Why have a fence to keep Cerebus out when you are controlling him?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

They really screwed up in this episode, man. Locke's got lots of experience in wargaming, yet he plays RISK? No, I'm sorry, this just isn't realistic.

GREAT episode, nothing like returning with a bang! Now that it's aired, I'll post something I was reading on a spoiler site earlier today. It's from an interview with Michael Emerson for Entertainment Weekly, regarding tonight's episode. I loved the quote:



Entertainment Weekly said:


> [Michael] Emerson [reveals] during a brief respite from shooting Lost's first episode since the writers' strike interrupted production last November[:] "I thought we would ease into things. Instead, I get this all-Ben extravaganza: combat, riding horses, foreign languages. And piano playing!"


He does sound like he loves playing the character. Rightfully so.

Greg


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## dsmoot (Oct 15, 2003)

spikedavis said:


> No. Those two events were seperate-you can tell from the bruises on "present" Ben and the tan of "Future" Ben. Him going into the basement was all about summoning Cerebus.
> 
> So here's what I'm pondering. Why have a fence to keep Cerebus out when you are controlling him?


I think you mean Cerberus  not Cerebus.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

dsmoot said:


> I think you mean Cerberus  not Cerebus.


Doh!


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

I also just want to say what a joy it is to have a show on the air as rich and deeply involving as LOST. There are plenty of shows that I love, but there is something uniquely wonderful about LOST that I enjoy on a completely different level.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Amazing how they've effectively got us to go from hating Ben, to rooting for him. I look forward to his killing every Widmore guy left


I wouldn't say that. I would say that they've added another level of complexity to Ben.



spikedavis said:


> So here's what I'm pondering. Why have a fence to keep Cerebus out when you are controlling him?


I don't think that Ben can so much control it as much as summon it and hope it doesn't kill him.

So where did Sayid catch up with Nadia?


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

JYoung said:


> So where did Sayid catch up with Nadia?


Probally when he returns as one of the O6, his face is all over the news and Nadia sees him and makes contact. Remember-we know she was alive and well in CA-when Locke met her.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

YAFE

(Yet Another Fantastic Episode)

LOVED it.


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

It's just my opinion but Lost is kind of a good show.


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## toddvj (Apr 22, 2004)

Sayid said that he spent the last 8 years looking for her. What's up with that? Is he including pre-island time?


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## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

Excellent episode! Ben is such an interesting character. I also am interested to know why he couldn't just kill Widmore. I thought at first maybe he just wanted Widmore to suffer from seeing his daughter die, but Ben said they both already knew why he couldn't, so it must be something else.

Maybe Desmond kills Ben -> coffin.

What's up with Jack's 'stomach bug'?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think its been posted before, but the flashforwards are going in reverse chronoligical order. 

The one with jack occurred furthest in the future, and each one after that occurred earlier than the one before.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I'm guessing he cant' kill widmore for the same reason michael couldn't die. The island is protecting him?


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> I was surprised to see Bem's gambit with his daughter go sour.


That whole gambit didn't make sense to me. Inside the house, they were already assuming that the mercs would kill everybody even if they handed Ben over. So if these guys weren't going to spare anybody before leaving, why would they spare Alex, especially when Ben says she's *not* his daughter?


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

atrac said:


> YAFE
> 
> (Yet Another Fantastic Episode)


Its not really effective using acronyms if you have to explain them.

What an Episode! Michael Emerson has proven himself to be an incredible actor. When he took out those two Arabians I was kinda shocked. He is kind of a small man.

Sawyer admitted he was wrong by staying with Locke. When Clarie's house was hit with that rocket I thought she was a goner (well we know Aaron is with Kate so I thought that was it for her).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jeeters said:


> That whole gambit didn't make sense to me. Inside the house, they were already assuming that the mercs would kill everybody even if they handed Ben over. So if these guys weren't going to spare anybody before leaving, why would they spare Alex, especially when Ben says she's *not* his daughter?


It sounds like Ben and Charles had an arrangement that their conflict would not extend to family, and that Ben couldn't believe Widmore's people would go back on that.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

So can we assume that there is some sort of teleportation involved now? Ben appeared in the desert. He didn't know exactly where he was and he definitely didn't know when he was. The date was approximately one year after the original crash.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Smokey's back....cool...

"...one hair on his curly head..."? What does THAT mean?


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It sounds like Ben and Charles had an arrangement that their conflict would not extend to family, and that Ben couldn't believe Widmore's people would go back on that.


+1 I got the feeling that something Ben knew allowed him to brashly taunt the Merc, "knowing" that his daughter was safe. And then *bang!* and that realization that someone had just double-crossed him tossed him over the edge.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Smokey's back....cool...
> 
> "...one hair on his curly head..."? What does THAT mean?


Just an expression of love...


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I don't remember how to 'spoiler'...


[spoyler]....text....[/spoyler]

(of course, spell spoiler correctly)


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> Just an expression of love...


Ha....I'd sure like to see a "curly head"...leave it to Sawyer to screw up a cliche...


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

toddvj said:


> Sayid said that he spent the last 8 years looking for her. What's up with that? Is he including pre-island time?


The timeline confuses me too. Didn't the woman at the hotel tell Ben it was 1995? Maybe I heard it wrong?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Sayid has been looking for Nat since the 90s post Gulf War. 8 years fits.

It's 2005 not 1995.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

spikedavis said:


> No. Those two events were seperate-you can tell from the bruises on "present" Ben and the tan of "Future" Ben. Him going into the basement was all about summoning Cerebus. Plus in the Future Ben is wearing a Dharma parka and has a deep cut on his arm. I'm assuming we'll see him in a struggle to time travel in an upcoming episode and get cut by someone right before he does.
> 
> I love the time warp with Doc Ray being alive and dead at the same time.
> 
> So here's what I'm pondering. Why have a fence to keep Cerebus out when you are controlling him?


Of course, as we saw in the Despond episode, one does not need to phsycally time travel, one can just time travel by switching bodies.

Again, I wonder if present Ben has the ability to switch body time travel like Desmond (but unlike Desmond can control it). The only reason I asked is because he asked the desk clerk the date, and the year.

Maybe he was asking the year solely for exposition purposes, so that the viewer would know.  But why else?

I hope I'm wrong. While I generally like time travel fiction, I do not like it in Lost at all.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

I think that LOST does the spacetme discontinuity thingy especially well.
Widmore can't even use ship's coordinates to get back to the Island because it is not in a constant/normal spacetime coordinate. It shifts.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

robbhimself said:


> i get a god vs devil vibe off this war between ben and widmore.. the island is almost like an eden.. ok, sorry for throwing in some religion.. but this war with certain rules, they "know" they can't kill the other, the light and dark in the bedroom.. almost seems like a game with ben trying to corrupt locke since he is so full of faith.. sorry for the religious angle, but thats just the feeling i got after watching this


My hubby said the exact same thing. He thought it was like God vs The Devil. Then I made a statement about why would god be sleeping with a bottle of scotch by his bed??? And he goes...who said he was the good one???

I don't know who the good guys are...that's what makes it so confusing!!! I'm so confused!!!


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> Sayid has been looking for Nat since the 90s post Gulf War. 8 years fits.
> 
> It's 2005 not 1995.


I meant 2005, but I didn't realize he was looking for her since the 90s.

BTW - according to Lostpedia, the flashforwards aren't going from latest to earliest. The timeline shows "Ji Yeon" as the earliest of them and this ep as the second.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> My hubby said the exact same thing. He thought it was like God vs The Devil. Then I made a statement about why would god be sleeping with a bottle of scotch by his bed??? And he goes...who said he was the good one???
> 
> I don't know who the good guys are...that's what makes it so confusing!!! I'm so confused!!!


Isn't is great?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jehma said:


> I meant 2005, but I didn't realize he was looking for her since the 90s.
> 
> BTW - according to Lostpedia, the flashforwards aren't going from latest to earliest. The timeline shows "Ji Yeon" as the earliest of them and this ep as the second.


That's a good point. I don't think they told us a date in Ji Yeon, but since she was pregnant, we can sort of figure it out.


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Quote from Hurley.

"Australia is the key to the whole game"

I'm betting this means more to the show than to Risk.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

mask2343 said:


> Quote from Hurley.
> 
> "Australia is the key to the whole game"
> 
> I'm betting this means more to the show than to Risk.


OK, so what have we seen in Australia?

Christan Sheppard
Claire & the psychic
Rose & Bernard & the faith healer (right?)

I have a poor memory for details, though ...


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

mask2343 said:


> Quote from Hurley.
> 
> "Australia is the key to the whole game"
> 
> I'm betting this means more to the show than to Risk.


I think this was just meant to be humorous. If you read online board game forums, there are a lot of arguments among Risk players over whether Australia is the key to game or not.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

In Risk, if you had Australia, yo almost always one as it was there was only one way to get in and try and defeat the enemy. I think there will be a parallel here with Lost "Game".

And I could see Widmore as the Captain of the Black Rock.

And I also thought Ben was very much "unstuck in time".

And I think those that time travel get sick. I think Jack was getting sick becuase he travelled, but didn't know it.


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

The producers have stated that Ayer's Rock has importance.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Roadblock said:


> What's up with Jack's 'stomach bug'?


I was pretty sure what it looked like and called it to my wife during the episode, but since he preview "confirmed" it, I will spoiler my idea:



Spoiler



It appears that he has an appendicitis



Over all, another excellent episode.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jehma said:


> I meant 2005, but I didn't realize he was looking for her since the 90s.
> 
> BTW - according to Lostpedia, the flashforwards aren't going from latest to earliest. The timeline shows "Ji Yeon" as the earliest of them and this ep as the second.


According to Carlton Cuse



Spoiler



The flashforwards are going backwards chronologically. He says that eventually they'll catch up to the island "present" time until the word "flash" won't be used anymore.



Greg


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

gchance said:


> According to Carlton Cuse
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except when they were not.

Last night's Flashforward took place, according to the desk clerk at the hotel, in October of 2005.

Sun was pregnant on the Island. Let's say she was one month at December 24, 2004? As such, the latest hers could have taken place was August 2005. But I think she gave birth even earleir.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

jehma said:


> OK, so what have we seen in Australia?
> 
> Christan Sheppard
> Claire & the psychic
> ...


The guy who originally heard the numbers lived there (or, as we saw, his widow still lived there).


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Oceanic flight 815 took off from Australia, which means that all of the survivors came from there. Most of the early flashbacks were explaining why those people were in Australia. If you make a list of what we saw there, just make a list of everyone on the plane (in other words, it's pointless.)

What a great episode.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> Oceanic flight 815 took off from Australia, which means that all of the survivors came from there. Most of the early flashbacks were explaining why those people were in Australia. If you make a list of what we saw there, just make a list of everyone on the plane (in other words, it's pointless.)


True, but some of the events were more "mystical" than others. Or maybe they all were and we just don;t know it yet.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Jeeters said:


> That whole gambit didn't make sense to me. Inside the house, they were already assuming that the mercs would kill everybody even if they handed Ben over. So if these guys weren't going to spare anybody before leaving, why would they spare Alex, especially when Ben says she's *not* his daughter?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> It sounds like Ben and Charles had an arrangement that their conflict would not extend to family, and that Ben couldn't believe Widmore's people would go back on that.


Right. Which is why I don't understand how saying she's NOT his daughter was supposed to save her.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Off topic.....

The guy that plays Charles Widmore, is he british and normally has an accent? when he was on The OC, he did not have one. I was curious if he is fantastic at hiding his accent like Hugh Laurie........



Back on topic......


Each episode continues to push me more towards trying not "figure it all out" and just enjoy the ride. It is so hard (at least for me) to try and keep everything straight.


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## Sacrilegium (Dec 14, 2006)

Jeeters said:


> Right. Which is why I don't understand how saying she's NOT his daughter was supposed to save her.


I thought it was more for "show." Ben was telling them he wouldn't leave, and giving the gunman an out at the same time. Ben tells the gunman it's not his daughter, so the gunman lets her go and saves face in front of his men who aren't in on The Rules. The Losties in the house with Ben think, _"Hey, Ben fooled those guys"_ and the illusion of The Game is maintained. The gunman, playing by the rules, doesn't execute Alex and the illusion of The Game is maintained.

However, when he killed Alex anyway, The Rules changed.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Regarding the previews:



Spoiler



What the heck was Kimey doing in the previews for next week. How would he survive the smoke monster when the others didn't. Also, is it me or does he look like he's related to Christoper Walken?


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

My husband had a theory that when the morse code said, "The doctor is fine" that it was referring to Jack. We know that Jack gets off the island and with the time paradox thing going on, it could be that Jack's already on the boat...


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## rimler (Jun 30, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It sounds like Ben and Charles had an arrangement that their conflict would not extend to family, and that Ben couldn't believe Widmore's people would go back on that.


I didn't take it as any agreement between Widmore and Ben. After all, if Ben and Widmore's men know that the merc guy can't kill Alex, why all the hostage drama? Just to impress the Losties?

I take the "changing of the rules" comment to mean that the Island (or Jacob) has changed the rules by allowing the death.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Well someone brought up the good point.

Sounds like Ben killed her when he said she wasn't his daughter. Sounds like that means she's fair game then!


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

rimler said:


> I take the "changing of the rules" comment to mean that the Island (or Jacob) has changed the rules by allowing the death.


I'll _maybe_ buy that. Perhaps until that moment, Ben considered he and Alex safe from death as the island protected them. When the merc killed Alex, he realized the rules had changed for some reason, perhaps also realizing that he, himself, could maybe now die.
I have to say 'maybe', though, as Ben did seem very fearful when the merc had the gun on Alex. If he thought the island would protect Alex, then he probably wouldn't have been so concerned. Sort of like when Mister Friendly didn't mind at all when Michael pulled a gun on him in the city since he knew the Michael / gun wouldn't fire.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It sounds like Ben and Charles had an arrangement that their conflict would not extend to family, and that Ben couldn't believe Widmore's people would go back on that.





jwehman said:


> +1 I got the feeling that something Ben knew allowed him to brashly taunt the Merc, "knowing" that his daughter was safe. And then *bang!* and that realization that someone had just double-crossed him tossed him over the edge.





Jeeters said:


> Right. Which is why I don't understand how saying she's NOT his daughter was supposed to save her.





Sacrilegium said:


> I thought it was more for "show." Ben was telling them he wouldn't leave, and giving the gunman an out at the same time. Ben tells the gunman it's not his daughter, so the gunman lets her go and saves face in front of his men who aren't in on The Rules. The Losties in the house with Ben think, _"Hey, Ben fooled those guys"_ and the illusion of The Game is maintained. The gunman, playing by the rules, doesn't execute Alex and the illusion of The Game is maintained.
> 
> However, when he killed Alex anyway, The Rules changed.





rimler said:


> I didn't take it as any agreement between Widmore and Ben. After all, if Ben and Widmore's men know that the merc guy can't kill Alex, why all the hostage drama? Just to impress the Losties?
> 
> I take the "changing of the rules" comment to mean that the Island (or Jacob) has changed the rules by allowing the death.


I agree with rimler. I think when Ben said "he changed the rules" he didn't literally mean that Widmore made a decision to not play fair according to some gentleman's agreement bewteen them, but merely that Widmore's merc was able to accomplish something that shouldn't have been possible by Ben's understanding of the way the island/world works. I also think that for the most part, those "rules" are still in play, which is why Widmore knew that Ben couldn't kill him. IMO, based on Ben's new understanding of these rules, he can kill Penny, which he might have thought was impossible before, but he still can't kill Widmore.

If there were some pre-determined rules between Ben and Widmore that precluded killing Alex, instructions certainly would have been passed on to Widmor's men that she wasn't to be hurt. It wouldn't make any sense to try and get to Ben by threatening something that both sides new wasn't permitted. If, on the other hand, the rules are simply Ben's understanding of what can or cannot happen based on his percepton of the way the world/island works, it would make sense that Widmore's men never received any such instructions because it wouldn't be necessary. If something is not permitted to happen, it won't happen whether an instruction is given or not.

I've linked to this theory before, http://www.timelooptheory.com/

but the more I think about it, the more it seems as if this guy's onto something. There are flaws in it to be sure, but I think he's got a general grasp of what's going on here. The most recent episodes make alot more sense when keeping it in mind.


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> My husband had a theory that when the morse code said, "The doctor is fine" that it was referring to Jack. We know that Jack gets off the island and with the time paradox thing going on, it could be that Jack's already on the boat...


I agree. I suspect we'll see eventually see whoever is pounding out that Morse code and at that time it will be clear that Jack is "the doctor." The writers will expect us to be awed by their 'genius' obtuse writing.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

So now we've gone from WAAAAALT! to CLAAAAAIRE!

The question for me is how many of the 815 survivors are now dead as a result of the attack. It seemed like a good number of them followed Locke to the compound, but now there seems to be only a handful who got away ... that's a pretty significant loss of population there.


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## rimler (Jun 30, 2002)

I also wonder if the "changing of the rules" comment doesn't have something to do with the future. I wonder if Ben knew that Alex was alive in the future, perhaps off the island....something we may see in an upcoming flash forward? Now, suddenly, Alex is dead and that's not possible anymore...the rules have changed. He would have had to save her in the past (with the merc) but he would be completely confident that he did it. Thus, the BS story about her not being his daughter.

I'll admit this is a stretch, and I may be totally off base here because I don't follow the time shifting stuff that much, it makes my head hurt.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> So now we've gone from WAAAAALT! to CLAAAAAIRE!
> 
> The question for me is how many of the 815 survivors are now dead as a result of the attack. It seemed like a good number of them followed Locke to the compound, but now there seems to be only a handful who got away ... that's a pretty significant loss of population there.


Others may have been able to fee off-camera. What did we see for certain, three lostie deaths? The moment I saw Ensign Ricky with the firewood, I knew it was a matter of seconds before he died.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I thought this was the case and I just confirmed on Lostpedia.....

The combo used to deactivate the fence was 16 23. This may be a smeek from season's ago, but I don't remember.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Black Rock captain is a stretch. Why would he need to bid on the log if that is the case?

We already know he was one of the main investors behind DHARMA don't we? I think he sent the "scientists" there under false pretenses, intending to exploit the island. Ben's group is somewhat like environmentalists or something, and want the Island to remain unexploited.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Another tidbit "I" picked up at lostpedia...again could be a smeek......[bold included by me for emphasis]



> The piece Ben is playing on the piano right before the phone call is Sergei Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C Sharp Minor. Some British publications include the title *The Burning of Moscow* or *The Day of Judgement.*


Also, when Sawyer rescues Claire from the rubble, Claire initially mistakes him for Charlie. Is everyone getting unstuck in time? Maybe she had just visited Charlie.

Also, I did not know the following:



> The name of the episode is also the name of a book by H.G. Wells which is written in the form of a history book from the future.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> Black Rock captain is a stretch. Why would he need to bid on the log if that is the case?
> 
> We already know he was one of the main investors behind DHARMA don't we? I think he sent the "scientists" there under false pretenses, intending to exploit the island. Ben's group is somewhat like environmentalists or something, and want the Island to remain unexploited.


Well, as much as Ben proclaims his group to be the good guys, it's probably a relative thing, i.e. they're not as bad as the Widmore group ... their motives regarding the island have never struck me as all that altruistic. Plus, I've always thought that the original others, the ones that got Ben to betray Dharma, were the Black Rock crew or their descendants.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Shakhari said:


> ...The question for me is how many of the 815 survivors are now dead as a result of the attack. It seemed like a good number of them followed Locke to the compound, but now there seems to be only a handful who got away ... that's a pretty significant loss of population there.





Mike Farrington said:


> ...The moment I saw Ensign Ricky with the firewood, I knew it was a matter of seconds before he died.


Talk about red shirts....you KNEW that first one was going to bite it....then the two others dropped like flies...


----------



## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

robbhimself said:


> i get a god vs devil vibe off this war between ben and widmore.. the island is almost like an eden.. ok, sorry for throwing in some religion.. but this war with certain rules, they "know" they can't kill the other, the light and dark in the bedroom.. almost seems like a game with ben trying to corrupt locke since he is so full of faith.. sorry for the religious angle, but thats just the feeling i got after watching this


Maybe Ben's people are Vorlons and Widmore's are the Shadows. 

Okay, so you have to watch _Babylon 5_ to get that one...


----------



## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

One thing I really hate about shoot outs. Guys with machine guns can never hit the guy with a pistol that is running through the yard, diving behind trees or fences.
 :down:


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

jlb said:


> I thought this was the case and I just confirmed on Lostpedia.....
> 
> The combo used to deactivate the fence was 16 23. This may be a smeek from season's ago, but I don't remember.


That was the distress code. The code for opening the barrier under duress. That code initiated the automated "Code 14J" call to Ben's phone.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

mask2343 said:


> Quote from Hurley.
> 
> "Australia is the key to the whole game"
> 
> I'm betting this means more to the show than to Risk.


That scene was great, by the way. 

Why does Ben's jacket that he had on when he woke up in the desert have the name "Halliwax" on it?

Is Sawyer used for anything but exposition these days?


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Halliwax is one of the candle-related aliases of the Asian doctor from the Orientation films. (Wickmund, Candle, Halliwax.)


----------



## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

scsiguy72 said:


> One thing I really hate about shoot outs. Guys with machine guns can never hit the guy with a pistol that is running through the yard, diving behind trees or fences.
> :down:


I hear ya... you'd think that a trained merc would know to lead their targets...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> That was the distress code. The code for opening the barrier under duress. That code initiated the automated "Code 14J" call to Ben's phone.


So now the piece we gotta look up is what the combo was when Juliette keyed it in.. Was it the same one? I thought it was (even before I heard that it was a duress code), but I'm not 100% sure.


MickeS said:


> Why does Ben's jacket that he had on when he woke up in the desert have the name "Halliwax" on it?


As was just said, it was one of the Marvin Candle guy names.. In particular, it was the one from the Orchid orientation video, which seems to eliminate most doubt as to how Ben got to the desert.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Of course, as we saw in the Despond episode, one does not need to phsycally time travel, one can just time travel by switching bodies.
> 
> Again, I wonder if present Ben has the ability to switch body time travel like Desmond (but unlike Desmond can control it). The only reason I asked is because he asked the desk clerk the date, and the year.
> 
> ...


If he was just mentally time travelling, I don't think the version of Ben that belongs in Tunisia would be wearing a parka.

Z


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

nrrhgreg said:


> Oops, sorry.


Can't you go change the title of the thread now? That's gonna get awfully confusing a month from now when we're going back to look for the Shape of Things to Come episode (which I believe was the title of this one). Is an admin needed to change the title of a thread?



Mike Farrington said:


> Something else interesting... Why can't Ben kill Charles Widmore?


Good question.. As others have guessed, I'm guessing it's similar to whatever is helping keep Michael from killing himself, which is probably similar to the universe being able to "course-correct" when events change because of time travel. Maybe they both have information that they're both present at some battle way in the future, so they know they can't be killed, because the universe corrects it..


Paperboy2003 said:


> Also, how did Ben hurt his arm, how did he get to the middle of the sahara (didn't see a parachute), and why was he sick


Missed how he hurt his arm. As for the Sahara, here's my like fiftieth time strongly suggesting you watch the Orchid Orientation Video. The sick part is interesting.

I'd actually thought something else last night, which I don't actually believe, but thought significant enough to pause the video to talk about.. What if Ben used the same transport/shift thing in the Orchid video to get to the Sahara, but instead of just moving you it _copies_ you (I've said that before).. What if Ben ends up in the Sahara yet still on the island? Better yet, what if the two copies could somehow communicate with each other or share thoughts? It'd certainly make it easy for Ben to get 3.2 million dollars for Miles (what's important there is that Miles thought it was possible - even laughed at Locke for thinking it wasn't worthy of mention). Like I said, I don't actually believe that, so ignore this entire paragraph.


toddvj said:


> Sayid said that he spent the last 8 years looking for her. What's up with that? Is he including pre-island time?


Yep, that's what I thought he meant.


danplaysbass said:


> What an Episode! Michael Emerson has proven himself to be an incredible actor. When he took out those two Arabians I was kinda shocked. He is kind of a small man.


Yeah, that was a very cool scene.. That closed-up club is almost like seeing a small unopened lightsaber.. 


danplaysbass said:


> So can we assume that there is some sort of teleportation involved now? Ben appeared in the desert. He didn't know exactly where he was and he definitely didn't know when he was. The date was approximately one year after the original crash.


(cough)


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I was touched when Sawyer was so protective of Hurley. Sawyer's awesome.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Yeah, maybe Hanso was working for Whitmore.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I wonder if the "rules" changing coincide with the numbers disappearing. They've shown us an awful lot of numbers recently (heart monitors, etc) and none of them have had interesting numbers.. None of the flashforwards seem to have them.. It's almost like they're going out of their way to show numbers so we can realize they're no longer present.

I'm curious exactly when that occurred.. We saw Hurley seeing the numbers on his way to the airport, so at the very broadest, somewhere between him arriving at the flight, and them being off of the island, the numbers either changed or lost their significance. We can make guesses (purple sky?), but I think it'll be more compelling to track it down. Now I _thought_ that in one of the flashback episodes (that happened after the flashforwards.. maybe the Jin flashback?) that they DID show the numbers again - so if I'm right, it's not like the writers just tired of the numbers.. they went away, at some point in time. Maybe the "rules" are tied in with this - i.e. maybe Ben felt confident that Alex would survive because of having seen her in the future or something, and he'd always experienced that nothing changes, but now something did, which is new to him.

Eh, I dunno.. all I do know is: look for the numbers.. they're not there anymore, and they show an awful lot of numbers. NONE of them are the numbers.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Good point about the #'s, they seemed to disapear after the Swan was destoryed.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Did anyone else think that *Ben* killed Sayid's wife in order to manipulate him into helping kill Widmore's people?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mask2343 said:


> Quote from Hurley.
> 
> "Australia is the key to the whole game"
> 
> I'm betting this means more to the show than to Risk.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> Did anyone else think that *Ben* killed Sayid's wife in order to manipulate him into helping kill Widmore's people?


Me too! I thought that! Glad to hear I wasn't the only one.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

By the way, especially with another game being brought up in this episode (Risk), I absolutely loved the lighting during the encounter between Ben and Widmore.

Both of their faces, one half in darkness, one half lit.

Reminded me of Locke describing "the game" to Walt, while they were sitting in front of a backgammon board.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

ElJay said:


> I agree. I suspect we'll see eventually see whoever is pounding out that Morse code and at that time it will be clear that Jack is "the doctor." The writers will expect us to be awed by their 'genius' obtuse writing.


Eh, I think it'd be kinda cool, myself.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> Talk about red shirts....you KNEW that first one was going to bite it....then the two others dropped like flies...


My house:

"Oh, he's dea.... Red shirt! OOh, him too.... DEAD!"


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> That was the distress code. The code for opening the barrier under duress. That code initiated the automated "Code 14J" call to Ben's phone.


How cool was Ben's reaction, btw.. eyes widened, "WHERE DID YOU HEAR THAT??".. Loved when he handed the shotgun to Sawyer.


----------



## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

when ben "showed up" in tunisia, it looked like the sand under him was different in about a 10' radius, and the guys on horseback stopped and almost looked like they were staring at the sand around him for a brief moment before approaching.. maybe he was in some sort of terminator bubble?


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

robbhimself said:


> i get a god vs devil vibe off this war between ben and widmore.. the island is almost like an eden.. ok, sorry for throwing in some religion.. but this war with certain rules, they "know" they can't kill the other, the light and dark in the bedroom.. almost seems like a game with ben trying to corrupt locke since he is so full of faith.. sorry for the religious angle, but thats just the feeling i got after watching this


Don't be sorry, the writers throw in lots of religious references. Remember the Adam & Eve bodies? Jack Shephard is a shepherd. Many Biblical heroes were shepherds. In the monastery flashback episode they compared Desmond sacrificing Charlie to Abraham sacrificing Isaac. In the Book of Genesis, Jacob (mystery dude in cabin's name) was married to Rachel (Juliet's sister's name), who was unable to conceive for many years (like Juliet's sister), and died giving birth to... Benjamin! There are also names used like Ruth and Naomi (Book of Ruth), and Aaron, biblical brother of Moses.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> Did anyone else think that *Ben* killed Sayid's wife in order to manipulate him into helping kill Widmore's people?





jkeegan said:


> Me too! I thought that! Glad to hear I wasn't the only one.


Then who was the guy he and Sayid were following? Let's say that Ben hired him to kill Sayid's wife, then paid him to say, "Yes, I work for Widemore." All for Sayid's benefit? I can't see the guy going for it, knowing he'd at very least be injured, perhaps killed (which he was). It's just a bit of a stretch.

Greg


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DLiquid said:


> In the monastery flashback episode they compared Desmond sacrificing Charlie to Abraham sacrificing Isaac.


I don't remember this, but I will say that Abraham didn't sacrifice Isaac, God spared him. Are you saying that Charlie was spared? 

Greg


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

flatcurve said:


> I hear ya... you'd think that a trained merc would know to lead their targets...


Sawyer is being protected by the Island's mojo similar to how Michael can't kill himself.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gchance said:


> Then who was the guy he and Sayid were following? Let's say that Ben hired him to kill Sayid's wife, then paid him to say, "Yes, I work for Widemore." All for Sayid's benefit? I can't see the guy going for it, knowing he'd at very least be injured, perhaps killed (which he was). It's just a bit of a stretch.
> 
> Greg


Ben also seemed surprised when he saw Sayid on TV (which surprised me--shouldn't he already know about the Oceanic 6?)...


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

gchance said:


> I don't remember this, but I will say that Abraham didn't sacrifice Isaac, God spared him. Are you saying that Charlie was spared?


I am, at least in the episode I'm referring to. It's the one where Desmond had a vision of an arrow or something killing Charlie in the jungle, and he was knowingly leading Charlie to his death, planning to sacrifice him to get to Penny. Of course, Charlie sacrificed himself in a later episode.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DLiquid said:


> I am, at least in the episode I'm referring to. It's the one where Desmond had a vision of an arrow or something killing Charlie in the jungle, and he was knowingly leading Charlie to his death, planning to sacrifice him to get to Penny. Of course, Charlie sacrificed himself in a later episode.


Oh right, I remember the reference now. Thanks. Yes he was spared, if only for a short time.

Greg


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm confused about the difference in time from the ship to the island. (I can't imagine why, it's all so clear) The projectile they sent arrivedlater than expected, so the island is slower or behind the rest of the world? But if they meant the doctor from the ship, he would have still been alive there and already washed up on the island, so the island would be ahead of the ship. If they meant Jack, that would be consistent with the first experiment, wouldn't it? But how much time has to pass until Jack is well and the battle is over, and he's on the ship? So is the amount of time random? The object was just 30 minutes late or something, wasn't it?

Maybe if someone dies before an appearance he has already made while time traveling, he's kind of half there from then on--like Jack's Dad or Charlie appearing to Hurley. Maybe Ben didn't know this, and assumed that Alex couldn't die because she has traveled to the future with him. Now he knows different. But it's a stretch to think that there is anything about this that Ben doesn't know.


----------



## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> Did anyone else think that *Ben* killed Sayid's wife in order to manipulate him into helping kill Widmore's people?


yes...



gchance said:


> Then who was the guy he and Sayid were following? Let's say that Ben hired him to kill Sayid's wife, then paid him to say, "Yes, I work for Widemore." All for Sayid's benefit? I can't see the guy going for it, knowing he'd at very least be injured, perhaps killed (which he was). It's just a bit of a stretch.
> 
> Greg


The guy was pretty clearly Widmore's, given Ben was getting him to deliver a message to Widmore. That doesn't mean *he* is the one who killed Nadia, as Ben claims.

From other flash forwards we've seen mysterious others that interact and are clearly watching/following the Oceanic 6, including the guy from the Wire and the woman who shot Sayid.

Ben could have certainly used his knowledge that Sayid/Nadia were being followed to get the traffic cam shot and frame the guy for Nadia's death.

The key is his tell-tale smirk, which we saw right after Sayid popped the guy and "pleaded" with Ben to join his cause. Ben clearly smirked as he turned and walked away from Sayid


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

dslunceford said:


> The key is his tell-tale smirk, which we saw right after Sayid popped the guy and "pleaded" with Ben to join his cause. Ben clearly smirked as he turned and walked away from Sayid


He had the smirk because he knew he'd manipulated Sayid into doing his bidding, and made Sayid think it was his own idea. A con, if you like. It wasn't because he (Ben) had killed the Sayid's wife, necessarily.

Greg


----------



## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

gchance said:


> He had the smirk because he knew he'd manipulated Sayid into doing his bidding, and made Sayid think it was his own idea. A con, if you like. It wasn't because he (Ben) had killed the Sayid's wife, necessarily.
> 
> Greg


i agree.. i don't think he killed sayid's wife.. i think he needs people to volunteer to work for him rather than force them, might be one of those rules of the war.. at any point he could have put a gun to someone's head and say "do what i want", but instead he likes to leave a crumb trail right to his door where people think they are making their own decisions


----------



## rimler (Jun 30, 2002)

scsiguy72 said:


> One thing I really hate about shoot outs. Guys with machine guns can never hit the guy with a pistol that is running through the yard, diving behind trees or fences.
> :down:


Generally, yeah, I hate that too. But, maybe in this case the Mercs were missing on purpose. Didn't Ben not want Sawyer to come to the house? Maybe the lead was spraying to get Sawyer to run to where Ben was, thus spotting the house for them.

I'd bet on them having orders not to kill Sawyer, for some reason. They sure had no problem wasting the extras 

What always amazes me is how the second person runs out in the open to get blasted. The first guy (picking up firewood or something?) ok, caught him by surprise. But if I hear gunfire, I'm getting my butt down and peaking around from cover, not running out like a feathered target at a turkey shoot. Duh.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

robbhimself said:


> i agree.. i don't think he killed sayid's wife.. i think he needs people to volunteer to work for him rather than force them, might be one of those rules of the war.. at any point he could have put a gun to someone's head and say "do what i want", but instead he likes to leave a crumb trail right to his door where people think they are making their own decisions


I was thinking about that when he pulled the shotgun from out of the piano chair. He was sitting on a gun and could have at any time just walked in and killed his "captors" if he felt like it, but he chose not to.

It's funny how Ben wins by always playing the underdog, always displaying himself as a weakling, both mentally and phsyically, when in reality he is anything but.


----------



## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

MickeS said:


> I was thinking about that when he pulled the shotgun from out of the piano chair. He was sitting on a gun and could have at any time just walked in and killed his "captors" if he felt like it, but he chose not to.
> 
> It's funny how Ben wins by always playing the underdog, always displaying himself as a weakling, both mentally and phsyically, when in reality he is anything but.


isn't that supposedly what the devil does? no really, I'm asking... total agnostic here.


----------



## rimler (Jun 30, 2002)

MickeS said:


> It's funny how Ben wins by always playing the underdog, always displaying himself as a weakling, both mentally and phsyically, when in reality he is anything but.


Indeed. He kicks those two arabs' butts in the desert, then when Sayid has a gun on him, he stumbles around and walks like a weakling...leans on a big stone wall for support, etc. Interesting.

Ben was supposed to be a throwaway character, right? And the writers decided to keep him because of the awesome job the actor did? Am I remembering that correctly? I can't imagine Lost without Ben, even if there was another leader that they planned to introduce. The guy is great.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> I wonder if the "rules" changing coincide with the numbers disappearing. They've shown us an awful lot of numbers recently (heart monitors, etc) and none of them have had interesting numbers.. None of the flashforwards seem to have them.. It's almost like they're going out of their way to show numbers so we can realize they're no longer present.
> 
> I'm curious exactly when that occurred.. We saw Hurley seeing the numbers on his way to the airport, so at the very broadest, somewhere between him arriving at the flight, and them being off of the island, the numbers either changed or lost their significance. We can make guesses (purple sky?), but I think it'll be more compelling to track it down. Now I _thought_ that in one of the flashback episodes (that happened after the flashforwards.. maybe the Jin flashback?) that they DID show the numbers again - so if I'm right, it's not like the writers just tired of the numbers.. they went away, at some point in time. Maybe the "rules" are tied in with this - i.e. maybe Ben felt confident that Alex would survive because of having seen her in the future or something, and he'd always experienced that nothing changes, but now something did, which is new to him.
> 
> Eh, I dunno.. all I do know is: look for the numbers.. they're not there anymore, and they show an awful lot of numbers. NONE of them are the numbers.





vertigo235 said:


> Good point about the #'s, they seemed to disapear after the Swan was destoryed.


 - Some instances of the numbers this season:

Hurley's car chase was on channel *8*

Hurley plays Connect *Four *in the institution

The helicopters markings read N*842*M

There's posters with *15* prominent in the room Miles confronts the ghost in his flashback

The numbers *16* and *23* appear on the rocket's digital clock that Daniel Faraday is holding during his experiment

In the cafe where Sayid and Elsa met for the first time there´s a picture on the wall showing a beer commercial "*1516* Rein".

Elsa tells Sayid to meet her at the restaurant at *8*:00

Kate's arraignment is docket #*4223*1*815*.

Desmond's consciousness moves back and forth between 1996 and 2004 - *8* years apart

Desmond's drill sergeant tells the recruits they have *4* minutes to "get in the yard" instead of the usual *8*.

Penny lives at *423 *Cheyne Walk.

The frequency that Faraday gives Desmond is *2.342*.

The auction lot number of the Black Rock diary is *2342*.

Ben gives Locke the safe combination: 36-*15*-28. 36-28=*8*

Michaels briefcase bomb timer counts down from *15* seconds

ETA: Oh yeah, and Ben tells the doorman at Widmore's building that he's there to see Mr. and Mrs. Kendrick in apartment *4*E...


----------



## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Eh, I dunno.. all I do know is: look for the numbers.. they're not there anymore, and they show an awful lot of numbers. NONE of them are the numbers.


Well there were _Some_ numbers last night. When they were playing Risk, Hurley rolled 2 sixs and a 3 for a (15)

Did you notice that when Ben was in Tunisa he checked in the hotel under the name Moriarty as in Sherlock Holmes.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

scsiguy72 said:


> Did you notice that when Ben was in Tunisa he checked in the hotel under the name Moriarty as in Sherlock Holmes.


Or as in the main character from "On the Road".


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> - Some instances of the numbers this season:
> 
> Hurley's car chase was on channel *8*
> 
> ...



Yeah, some of those are intentional, but come on. I really don't think that the briefcase counting down from 15, or meeting for dinner at 8 have any meaning to them.

Now list ALL the numbers that appear on the show, and see how many of them reference the sequence.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Peter000 said:


> Yeah, some of those are intentional, but come on. I really don't think that the briefcase counting down from 15, or meeting for dinner at 8 have any meaning to them.
> 
> Now list ALL the numbers that appear on the show, and see how many of them reference the sequence.


 Yeah, I'm sure they just pulled those out of the air and didn't consider their significance, and no one thought about it. Just a coincidence. Oy.

How about you list all the numbers on the show that aren't in that sequence - or just the significant ones.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> Yeah, some of those are intentional, but come on. I really don't think that the briefcase counting down from 15, or meeting for dinner at 8 have any meaning to them.
> 
> Now list ALL the numbers that appear on the show, and see how many of them reference the sequence.


The writer's writing a script and it calls for a number... why wouldn't he just plop in one of "the" numbers? Takes no effort and makes fans drool.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> The writer's writing a script and it calls for a number... why wouldn't he just plop in one of "the" numbers? Takes no effort and makes fans drool.


Exactly - and if they wanted the numbers to disappear (as the posts I was responding to were implying), they could have just as easily chosen "7" as a dinner time for Sayid and Elsa, or "20" as the starting point for the bomb timer...


----------



## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Exactly - and if they wanted the numbers to disappear (as the posts I was responding to were implying), they could have just as easily chosen "7" as a dinner time for Sayid and Elsa, or "20" as the starting point for the bomb timer...


Relax, we all enjoyed your point.

There was definitely something up with the land surrounding Ben after arriving in the Sahara - the guys on horseback noticed it.

Ben's a character I definitely have grown to love, he's probably my favorite on the show now.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> - Some instances of the numbers this season:
> 
> Hurley's car chase was on channel *8*
> 
> ...


OK, but they haven't made them as obvious or talked about them at all. I guess since they don't have to type them into the computer anymore, no need to talk about them.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> Yeah, I'm sure they just pulled those out of the air and didn't consider their significance, and no one thought about it. Just a coincidence. Oy.
> 
> How about you list all the numbers on the show that aren't in that sequence - or just the significant ones.


Well, I don't waste my time that way. But if YOU'RE going to do it, and publicly, I can call out the fallacy in your assumptions.

Maybe you're right, and if you actually DO it right I may believe you. Until then you're just seeing the Virgin Mary in rice pudding.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Peter000 said:


> Well, I don't waste my time that way. But if YOU'RE going to do it, and publicly, I can call out the fallacy in your assumptions.


 Please. What is false about my assumptions? As I said, it would be just as easy to place any random number in where one is needed if they want the numbers to disappear.


> Maybe you're right, and if you actually DO it right I may believe you.


 I don't give a damn whether you believe me or not; my original post was to refute an assertion that the numbers have disappeared, which they clearly have not. And it took me about *15* minutes to compose that post using Lostpedia.com


> Until then you're just seeing the Virgin Mary in rice pudding.


 And you are a fool if you think those numbers aren't placed deliberately.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

gchance said:


> Then who was the guy he and Sayid were following? Let's say that Ben hired him to kill Sayid's wife, then paid him to say, "Yes, I work for Widemore." All for Sayid's benefit? I can't see the guy going for it, knowing he'd at very least be injured, perhaps killed (which he was). It's just a bit of a stretch.
> 
> Greg


It could be that when Ben was out there about to kill Nadia, he saw a Widmore guy following him, photographed him, and adapted his plan.

Eh, I agree, it's a bit of a stretch, but it does feel like something Ben would do.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> - Some instances of the numbers this season:
> 
> Hurley's car chase was on channel *8*
> 
> ...


Ok, before I start digging through those (don't have time now, will try later), you're missing my point.. I'm not saying it was immediately after the swan station was destroyed (as vertigo235 said), but just that it seems that _sometime_ after a given point, the numbers stop. I'm not saying "this season" there are no numbers - instead, I'm saying 'after some point in the Lost timeline, there are no numbers'.

It could even be after some of the flashforwards and before others..

I'm just saying.. At least the end-of-season-3-flash-forward one (waaaay at the end) had none (that I remember), and all of the ones before season 3 ended all had numbers in the flash_backs_.. Lots of the flashforward episodes have had no numbers in them at all.

(Maybe after Hurley's episode.. I didn't remember channel 8)


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So Ben, at some point in the next few days, time and space travels from his basement to Tunisia in 2005. He then sees Sayid at his wife's funeral on TV and heads for Iraq. Using his computor hacking skills he gets the picture of Widmore's man(who he recognizes from prior knowledge) close to the murder scene. He finds him in Iraq and then pretends to run from Sayid when he wants him to find him. And he has himself a hitman. He couldn't have actually gone to LA unless he went there before Tunisia. Is there some kind of worm hole from the island to this spot in the desert, since Ben and the polar bear both ended up there?

Is Ben able to go to the future at any random time and, using the internet, find out what anybody and everybody is doing then? So could he know in advance about the Oceanic 6 just as we do, and know who can be killed and who won't be?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

scsiguy72 said:


> Well there were _Some_ numbers last night. When they were playing Risk, Hurley rolled 2 sixs and a 3 for a (15)
> 
> Did you notice that when Ben was in Tunisa he checked in the hotel under the name Moriarty as in Sherlock Holmes.


Again, I'm not talking about time on the island.. I imagine (based on numbers cited from the Hurley and Kate flashforwards, at least) that the numbers stopped sometime after they got off of the island.

I'll admit I have to go research it again now but I've noticed that in at least a few episodes.. It felt pretty obvious at the time.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Ok, before I start digging through those (don't have time now, will try later), you're missing my point.. I'm not saying it was immediately after the swan station was destroyed (as vertigo235 said), but just that it seems that _sometime_ after a given point, the numbers stop. I'm not saying "this season" there are no numbers - instead, I'm saying 'after some point in the Lost timeline, there are no numbers'.
> 
> It could even be after some of the flashforwards and before others..
> 
> ...





jkeegan said:


> Again, I'm not talking about time on the island.. I imagine (based on numbers cited from the Hurley and Kate flashforwards, at least) that the numbers stopped sometime after they got off of the island.
> 
> I'll admit I have to go research it again now but I've noticed that in at least a few episodes.. It felt pretty obvious at the time.


You're right I don't get your point. At least some of the numbers have appeared in nearly every episode in nearly every flash-forward - Like the woman Jack saves at the end of season three, which appears to be the furthest forward flash-forward, is *42* years old and her child is *8*. That's the last one I'll bother to cite, clearly some people want to believe they're gone. They're not.

I don't know that they're anything beyond easter-eggs for the fans, as the producers have hinted that they may not explain them further; but they are there and they are deliberate.


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

If the numbers aren't really showing up anymore in the future, has anyone analyzed the numbers that are showing up to look for patterns or recurrence? What if the "equation" has been changed? Perhaps there's a new set of numbers that we'll realize towards the end of the show and will appreciate on future re-viewings.


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

jlb said:


> Off topic.....
> 
> The guy that plays Charles Widmore, is he british and normally has an accent? when he was on The OC, he did not have one. I was curious if he is fantastic at hiding his accent like Hugh Laurie........


Alan Dale is from New Zealand, and spent most of his early career on Australian television.


stevieleej said:


> The Fence - I think this was to keep people out of the compound, not the smoke monster.


The fence was built to keep out the smoke monster. Keeping out people, or keeping them in for that matter, is a bonus.


stellie93 said:


> I'm confused about the difference in time from the ship to the island. (I can't imagine why, it's all so clear) The projectile they sent arrivedlater than expected, so the island is slower or behind the rest of the world? But if they meant the doctor from the ship, he would have still been alive there and already washed up on the island, so the island would be ahead of the ship. If they meant Jack, that would be consistent with the first experiment, wouldn't it? But how much time has to pass until Jack is well and the battle is over, and he's on the ship? So is the amount of time random? The object was just 30 minutes late or something, wasn't it?


I now think it is a given that the island is out of sync with the real world, and the amount of that difference is variable. It only seems random because we don't have the big picture, but it may be an oscillation of some kind, or even under some form of control. I spent some time discussing that difference, assuming it was a constant, and this episode confirms that the discussion was based on just a single data point, out of very few presented, and was not enough to draw the correct conclusion.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

The thing I'm wondering about this episode, is that it seemed like too much of a coincidence that Locke & company, which included Claire, are on their way to the cabin, where Claire might see a familiar person, and then Sawyer & Claire go the other way.

It's too early for Claire to see what's in the cabin. I think that will be very big in season 6.

-smak-


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> how did he get to the middle of the sahara (didn't see a parachute)


Just rewatched and noticed the following. Didn't catch it on initial viewing... When they first show Ben in the desert, it's a traditional Lost closeup of him opening his eyes. But he's also shaking, as if cold. And there's a mist about him. The camera then pulls back to the overhead view of him laying in the sand. And we see the mist quickly disipate. So, don't where he came from, or how he got there, but seems like wherever he was the moment before, it was a very cold place (hence, the parka).



robbhimself said:


> when ben "showed up" in tunisia, it looked like the sand under him was different in about a 10' radius, and the guys on horseback stopped and almost looked like they were staring at the sand around him for a brief moment before approaching.. maybe he was in some sort of terminator bubble?


That was a bit odd. The initial overhead shot of Ben was of him lying in a hard, dried up riverbead. You can see the cracks in the mud all about him. But when the camera view changes to ground level and we watch him get up on his feet, the riverbead is gone and instead he seems to be on bright, course sand (you can see him leaving footprints in it). Could it be coral sand? When the the horse back guys show up, they don't seem to be afraid of approaching, but one of them definitely looks down at the sand as they're bickering with each other. Ben notices this and he also looks down at the sand then goes into a, "Wait, I can explain" spiel where he tries to say something in their language but they don't want to listen. Since we don't know the language, we don't know what it was about, but the sand definitely seemed to be the topic of conversation.
I'm assuming that when Ben appeared there, the surrounding sand came with him from whereever he was.


----------



## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

Jeeters said:


> That was a bit odd. The initial overhead shot of Ben was of him lying in a hard, dried up riverbead. You can see the cracks in the mud all about him. But when the camera view changes to ground level and we watch him get up on his feet, the riverbead is gone and instead he seems to be on bright, course sand (you can see him leaving footprints in it). Could it be coral sand? When the the horse back guys show up, they don't seem to be afraid of approaching, but one of them definitely looks down at the sand as they're bickering with each other. Ben notices this and he also looks down at the sand then goes into a, "Wait, I can explain" spiel where he tries to say something in their language but they don't want to listen. Since we don't know the language, we don't know what it was about, but the sand definitely seemed to be the topic of conversation.
> I'm assuming that when Ben appeared there, the surrounding sand came with him from whereever he was.


i was thinking more like heat almost melting sand like glass, but yeah, watching it again there was some talk about it



> The thing I'm wondering about this episode, is that it seemed like too much of a coincidence that Locke & company, which included Claire, are on their way to the cabin, where Claire might see a familiar person, and then Sawyer & Claire go the other way.


also a good thing miles didn't go to the cabin, since he has this strong connection with dead people/spiritual energy his head probably would have exploded


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

How could Ben have killed Nadia when he was a little occupied traipsing through the desert completely unaware of when and where he was?


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Figaro said:


> How could Ben have killed Nadia when he was a little occupied traipsing through the desert completely unaware of when and where he was?


He could have had one of his people do it (Richard?). I'm not saying that happened, but not impossible.


----------



## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

so why did Ben shoot Locke after Locke heard Jacob? He apparently needs Locke now; wouldn't he have known that? Did he shoot Locke knowing that Walt would come and *inspire* Locke??


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

ElJay said:


> I agree. I suspect we'll see eventually see whoever is pounding out that Morse code and at that time it will be clear that Jack is "the doctor."


What I don't get about the Morse code scene is why did Daniel actually send the message that he claimed he was sending? (About the doctor?)

Why didn't he take the opportunity to send another message to the ship?


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> OK, but they haven't made them as obvious or talked about them at all. I guess since they don't have to type them into the computer anymore, no need to talk about them.


I recall something being posted around end of season 2 where the producers had said that they were intentionally downplaying the numbers and removing the overt references to that aspect of the story from the show, and that it would only be answered in the non-show materials like the Lost Experience. Don't recall why, and I can't easily find any reference to it. So dropping the numbers in, even as just a little "wink" to us (as opposed to, as a story element) might be a temptation they're trying to avoid.


----------



## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

So does anyone think there's any significance to Claire thinking that Sawyer was Charlie when he pulled her out of the rubble?


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

smickola said:


> So does anyone think there's any significance to Claire thinking that Sawyer was Charlie when he pulled her out of the rubble?


No, she just got knocked around a bit.


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> What I don't get about the Morse code scene is why did Daniel actually send the message that he claimed he was sending? (About the doctor?)
> 
> Why didn't he take the opportunity to send another message to the ship?


Maybe he was genuinely interested about the doctor. After the temporally confusing response, he decided to make stuff up.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

I had the impression that the dead guy wasn't the doctor at all.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> I had the impression that the dead guy wasn't the doctor at all.


Well just as a data point, I recognized the actor on the beach and said "It's the doctor!" before they said who it was. The only question is which doctor the person tapping morse code on the boat meant.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

The numbers have had less prominence in the show because the nature of the numbers and the story behind them has already been revealed in the Lost Experience. The producers have claimed that information wouldn't make it on the show because it's unimportant.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Something no one has mentioned is that Ben, yet again, knew exactly who Martin Christopher Keeme (sp?) was. (Who is playing that guy, by the way? He reminds me of a child star I can't place. IMDB had no Martin or Christopher actor). Keeme seemed surprised by this. It does seem to me that Ben is moving through time somehow. That's how he can find out information about everyone.

I also wondered why Keeme wasn't killed as soon as he killed Alex. To me it speaks to the "fact" that Ben didn't believe that she would be killed. He never even threatened Keeme with death.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Something no one has mentioned is that Ben, yet again, knew exactly who Martin Christopher Keeme (sp?) was. (Who is playing that guy, by the way? He reminds me of a child star I can't place. IMDB had no Martin or Christopher actor). Keeme seemed surprised by this. It does seem to me that Ben is moving through time somehow. That's how he can find out information about everyone.
> 
> I also wondered why Keeme wasn't killed as soon as he killed Alex. To me it speaks to the "fact" that Ben didn't believe that she would be killed. He never even threatened Keeme with death.


OR, Michael simply gave him a list of all the people on the boat.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> OR, Michael simply gave him a list of all the people on the boat.


How much would Keeme tell a janitor on a boat? Would he even give him his real, full name?


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> How much would Keeme tell a janitor on a boat? Would he even give him his real, full name?


Ben is pretty resourceful, he can probably figure it out even with an alias, or Michael found some documents with more info.

Or the writers just want us to be like "wow, how did he know all that!".

My bet is on #3 hehe.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

How about this? Ben came through in a parka and seemed quite cold when he hit the ground. The fact that he had the parka on kept it on as long as he did indicates, at least to me, that he didn't come through the desert wearing that. Penny had people in the Antarctic looking for "anomalies". Perhaps Ben has already made good on his threat and came from there.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Wikipedia has the mercenary spelled Keamy as Kevin Durand. I read his bio and he was in Stargate SG-1. That's where I believe he seemed familiar from.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

In the grand scheme of things, I think this is what is going on:

The island is a weird anomaly. Space and time don't behave normally on or around it. People have landed on it accidently throughout time, drawn in by the strange things it did to their compass. Hanso managed to find the island and he wanted to study it and how it impacted people and things. His goal was just to study and understand the island. Hanso hired Widmore at some point and Widmore was high enough in the organization (probably 2nd to Hanso) to learn and understand the secrets of the island. He felt that the "potential" of the island wasn't being put to good use and at some point took over. The people probably thought they were still working for Hanso when, in fact, they were working for Widmore. He started using the island and its "properties" for nefarious purposes. I think he used the time bending properties to make himself rich and powerful. 

Ben was brought to the island to work and realized how they and the island were being used. He didn't like that the "powers" of the island were being used for "evil" so he took over the island and killed "Widmore's" people. This is why Ben considers himself "good" even though he will go to any lengths, including killing people, to protect the island and its secrets.

Ben knew a lot about the island but I don't think he knew about entering the numbers at the Swan station. Otherwise, he would have taken it over and had one of his people entering the numbers. He didn't have many people so he had to abandon almost all of the stations. So there was one last Dharma person still there entering the numbers when Desmond wound up there. 

Since that time, Widmore and Ben have been at war. Widmore has been trying to locate the island again. (As long as you have someone on the island to keep in contact with you, you can find it. When Widmore lost all of his people on the island to Ben, he lost the ability to even find the island). Ben has been working very hard to keep the island hidden from Widmore but his lack of understanding of the Swan facility allowed the "event".

The "event" that was triggered by not putting in the numbers allowed Widmore to have a good idea where the island was and to send a ship to find out what was going on, with the ultimate intent to kill Ben's people and try and retake the island. 

The island can connect directly to 2 other places: the Arctic and the Sahara Desert. That's why Penny's people were in the Arctic looking for an event. The spots in the Arctic and the Sahara move as well so they can't be located directly or easily either but their connection to the island would reflect an "event" on the island and allow the island to be found again. The connection from the island is probably in the "Temple". Using the "connections" between the island and these places can be done but the time shifting that the island does makes it hard to determine "when" you will arrive. As an example, the polar bears arrived thousands of years off from "when" they were sent. Perhaps that's why the connection is rarely used (Ben doesn't seem to use it to get on and off the island except in emergencies, like this episode.) 

I'm doing this mostly from memory of the past 4 seasons. I could have forgotten some stuff, but that's my current theory.


----------



## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Did current Ben time travel to Tunisia using something in the basement?


Yes.

I'm surprised this comment wasn't the first post.

I'm thinking he can't kill Widemore because they are tied together in the time travel thing somehow, like Penny and Desmond.

Is this a smeek?


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

justapixel said:


> Yes.
> 
> I'm surprised this comment wasn't the first post.


He may have, in fact, time traveled while in the basement. But I don't think it was to do the events we saw he do in Iraq.


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Wasn't Locke playing Risk in the break room in his first flashback? 

And someone touched on it in the thread, but Sawyer is the touchstone for someone finally figuring out Claire and Jack's relation. He knows that the man he spoke to in Australia was Jack's father, and if he sees/hears Claire react to Jacob possibly looking like her father, he'll freak.

While I'm proud (is that the right word) of Sawyer's development in showing his care for Claire and Hurley ... way to prioritize one person over another during the gunfight. Run and grab Claire and get her safe, but three other people get shot first? Enh, so what, I care about Claire.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

MitchO said:


> Wasn't Locke playing Risk in the break room in his first flashback?


No, it was some other more advanced strategy / war game.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MitchO said:


> While I'm proud (is that the right word) of Sawyer's development in showing his care for Claire and Hurley ... way to prioritize one person over another during the gunfight. Run and grab Claire and get her safe, but three other people get shot first? Enh, so what, I care about Claire.


Well, to be fair he tried to save them too. But they were so red-shirted they couldn't understand "get down!" even in the context of watching their buddies get blown away one by one.


----------



## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

Bryanmc said:


> He may have, in fact, time traveled while in the basement. But I don't think it was to do the events we saw he do in Iraq.


No, I think it was to talk to Widemore.

They are trying to confuse us with time. Or, I'm easily confused, that's entirely possible.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Once again, I can't help but think that Keame (sp?) has the looks and mannerisms of Christopher Walken.....it's like they must be related or something


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Watching it again with my wife....

What about that look that the check in girl gave Ben when he got to the hotel and mentioned the name Ben Moriarty

Why did it seem like Sayid didn't realize that it was Ben on the roof taking the pic until he tackled him? Who did he think it was?


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Why did it seem like Sayid didn't realize that it was Ben on the roof taking the pic until he tackled him? Who did he think it was?


Paparazzi. They were all over him when Ben saw Sayid on television.


----------



## rimler (Jun 30, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> In the grand scheme of things, I think this is what is going on:


Huh. Well, I guess I can stop watching now. 

Nice theory :up:


----------



## Slime (Apr 6, 2003)

I'm wondering if the time travel/teleportation device has to bounce the traveller through either the North or South Pole (which ever one has polar bears) -- if you're going to experiment with animals, why pick polar bears, unless they are particularly easy to get to your location...

Also, could this device related to the 'magic box' that brought Locke's Father to the Island? (I think its safe to assume it can bring people back to the Island).


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> Wikipedia has the mercenary spelled Keamy as Kevin Durand. I read his bio and he was in Stargate SG-1. That's where I believe he seemed familiar from.


I read your first post about Keamy, and looked the guy up. When I saw his other credits, I thought, "I bet SG1 is where BeanmMeScot has seen him.

I think I'm spending too much time around here.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

rimler said:


> Huh. Well, I guess I can stop watching now.
> 
> Nice theory :up:


 Thanks! It wasn't meant to answer all the questions but to put together what we have learned in a reasonable way. I thought it fit together pretty well. It remains to be seen how far off it really is. 



mqpickles said:


> I read your first post about Keamy, and looked the guy up. When I saw his other credits, I thought, "I bet SG1 is where BeanmMeScot has seen him.
> 
> I think I'm spending too much time around here.


 Maybe I'm just too predictable!


----------



## brott (Feb 23, 2001)

Bryanmc said:


> He may have, in fact, time traveled while in the basement. But I don't think it was to do the events we saw he do in Iraq.


I tend to agree with this comment. He may have even, in fact, somehow sent a message to himself so that he would know what/when to act regarding the changing of the rules, but it's unlikely that the "cold" Ben is in the same continuum as the "shocked" Ben.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

justapixel said:


> No, I think it was to talk to Widemore.
> 
> They are trying to confuse us with time. Or, I'm easily confused, that's entirely possible.


I think most of us are confused. We then come to this thread to see what the smart people are saying, so we can then say we understand everything 

-smak-


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

That was the best Lost episode in a looooong time.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> In the grand scheme of things, I think this is what is going on:
> 
> The island is a weird anomaly. Space and time don't behave normally on or around it. People have landed on it accidently throughout time, drawn in by the strange things it did to their compass. Hanso managed to find the island and he wanted to study it and how it impacted people and things. His goal was just to study and understand the island. Hanso hired Widmore at some point and Widmore was high enough in the organization (probably 2nd to Hanso) to learn and understand the secrets of the island. He felt that the "potential" of the island wasn't being put to good use and at some point took over. The people probably thought they were still working for Hanso when, in fact, they were working for Widmore. He started using the island and its "properties" for nefarious purposes. I think he used the time bending properties to make himself rich and powerful.
> 
> ...


Works for me.....


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> In the grand scheme of things, I think this is what is going on:


Either that, or Kate wakes up and finds Jack in the shower.


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

And then we have to listen to people complain for months that it wasn't the other way around.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Either that, or Kate wakes up and finds Jack in the shower.


ow!.. now that's just cruel!

Diane


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dianebrat said:


> ow!.. now that's just cruel!
> 
> Diane


Well, they've always said they had it planned out from the beginning, and I believe them.

But they never said it was an intricate, carefully thought-out plan!


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Either that, or Kate wakes up and finds Jack in the shower.





dianebrat said:


> ow!.. now that's just cruel!
> 
> Diane





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, they've always said they had it planned out from the beginning, and I believe them.
> 
> But they never said it was an intricate, carefully thought-out plan!


Now, now. Jack's not dead. He will be soon, though, and they've already told us that's when the zombie season will start. Sounds like a plan to me.

Greg


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gchance said:


> Now, now. Jack's not dead. He will be soon, though, and they've already told us that's when the zombie season will start. Sounds like a plan to me.


I heard on the internet that Damon Lindelof has always wanted to do a zombie TV show but couldn't get the networks to greenlight it. So he set up Lost to evolve into one.

I heard it on the internet, so it must be true.

(Or did I make it up myself? OK, now I'm confused...)


----------



## rimler (Jun 30, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I heard on the internet that Damon Lindelof has always wanted to do a zombie TV show but couldn't get the networks to greenlight it. So he set up Lost to evolve into one.
> 
> I heard it on the internet, so it must be true.


Hey! Spoiler tags please!!!


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Once again, I can't help but think that Keame (sp?) has the looks and mannerisms of Christopher Walken.....it's like they must be related or something


He'll always be Joshua, from Dark Angel, to me. Couldn't be a more different character, though.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> He'll always be Joshua, from Dark Angel, to me. Couldn't be a more different character, though.


Wasn't Joshua the mutant from the 2nd season?


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> Wasn't Joshua the mutant from the 2nd season?


Yeah, the dog guy, liked to paint. Said "Joshua" a lot.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> Yeah, the dog guy, liked to paint. Said "Joshua" a lot.


Kind of hard to tell it was Durant, with all the makeup.


----------



## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

I guess the show is just too confusing for me and the wife, we just get LOST everytime they switch to different times in the story. The only reason we still watch it is to make sure it ends. I'm not sure why since we know who lives and who dosen't make it off the Island.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I guess the show is just too confusing for me and the wife, we just get LOST everytime they switch to different times in the story. The only reason we still watch it is to make sure it ends. I'm not sure why since we know who lives and who dosen't make it off the Island.


The others might still be alive but living on the island. There is nothing we have seen that would preclude that.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jwehman said:


> +1 I got the feeling that something Ben knew allowed him to brashly taunt the Merc, "knowing" that his daughter was safe. And then *bang!* and that realization that someone had just double-crossed him tossed him over the edge.


Still reading through the thread, but I can't resist replying to this one:

Technically, the merc didn't break the "rule of family" (if it existed at all) once Ben had denounced Alex by saying that she was NOT his daughter.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Yeah, if the "rule" is don't hurt family like we think it is, that was a weird thing to say. Almost like giving him permission to go ahead. But it's hardly ever the obvious thing in Lost, so the rules probably involve something else.


----------



## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

Slime said:


> I'm wondering if the time travel/teleportation device has to bounce the traveller through either the North or South Pole (which ever one has polar bears) -- if you're going to experiment with animals, why pick polar bears, unless they are particularly easy to get to your location...


Polar bears are native to the Arctic. Here's an easy way to remember. "Arctic" comes from the Greek word "arktos", which means "bear". "Antarctic" means "no bears" (from "anti arktos").  In fact, they weren't named that because of the polar bears, but because the constellation Ursa Major (great bear) is over the Arctic. But it works just as well for the polar bears, too.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

justapixel said:


> Yes.
> 
> I'm surprised this comment wasn't the first post.
> 
> ...


Maybe Widmore is Ben's grandfather


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Bryanmc said:


> He may have, in fact, time traveled while in the basement. But I don't think it was to do the events we saw he do in Iraq.


Agreed. "Current time" Ben was beaten up and had lots of bruises still visible on his face. Tunisia Ben was quite clean. I think he actually went into the basement to release (not summon) Smokie.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> That was the best Lost episode in a looooong time.


It was the only Lost episode in a long time, too. Personally, I wasn't wowed by it. I like my Lost a bit more subtle than a pistol shot to the back of the head.

So, let's see, in the span of a few minutes of screen time they killed off Carl, Danielle and Alex; but Bernard is allowed to continue???!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

getreal said:


> Still reading through the thread, but I can't resist replying to this one:
> 
> Technically, the merc didn't break the "rule of family" (if it existed at all) once Ben had denounced Alex by saying that she was NOT his daughter.


If we understand "the rules" then I'm sure they included his adopted daughter, as Widmore, surely, understands it. And while Ben did say "She's not my daughter" he also followed it up by saying that he kidnapped her as a baby. It would have been clear to the merc that the girl was the one that Widmore told him (assuming he was following "the rules" and that we understand "the rules") not to harm.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

wprager said:


> So, let's see, in the span of a few minutes of screen time they killed off Carl, Danielle and Alex; but Bernard is allowed to continue???!


Hey! I like Bernard.

Anyone else think that the man and woman that were killed next to Sawyer were supposed to be Nikki and Paulo?


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## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2002)

Jeeters said:


> When the the horse back guys show up, they don't seem to be afraid of approaching, but one of them definitely looks down at the sand as they're bickering with each other. Ben notices this and he also looks down at the sand then goes into a, "Wait, I can explain" spiel where he tries to say something in their language but they don't want to listen.


My Arabic is worse than my Farsi, but it seemed to me they were arguing about why there were no footprints, hoofprints, camel toe prints , or anything leading to or from Ben's present position.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I heard on the internet that Damon Lindelof has always wanted to do a zombie TV show but couldn't get the networks to greenlight it. So he set up Lost to evolve into one.
> 
> I heard it on the internet, so it must be true.
> 
> (Or did I make it up myself? OK, now I'm confused...)


It's an ongoing running joke on the podcasts. He made a joke about it in one podcast and people just kept building on it in questions to him. It's always funny when they talk about it.

Greg


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

In thinking the rule wasn't "no family", but rather "no innocents". Ben finally breaks down and says something he clearly doesn't want to (because it breaks her heart): that she means nothing to him, she's a pawn, etc. That sounds like something you'd say as a last resort. Sure, he could just be grasping at straws, but it felt more like he was saying she wasn't a valid player of the game, she was just a bystander, so she was off limits.

Also, as a side note, think how bad this feels for Ben (above the usual badness of losing a daughter).. She was probably why he spent so much time getting a fertility doctor there (or maybe she reminded him of his childhood sweetheart there), and she died anyway. Torturing Carl etc, all to keep him from having sex with his daughter to keep her safe, and she still died.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I re-watched Ben's trip o the Sahara. He was *definitely* on a dry river-bed or something similar when he first got there, and just as definitely on sand afterward. Continuity error or something deeper? Hard to tell, given the lengths the producers go to with these little details, but there's no doubt that he was in a different place.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Uh, no...unless the island is New Zealand!


I think there is some leeway. I know the island isn't new zealand, but isn't that still in the south pacific?

I still can't find exactly where I read it originally about it being opposite coordinates, but I found this site on another forum.

Find Tunisia and it'll show the exact opposite location on Earth and you get a general bit of other islands in the south pacific. 
Desmond had said he was off track from Fiji and Rousseau mentioned Tahiti....

So just bringing it up. It was by no means an original thought of mine.

But this is all moot, if ben went somewhere cold like the arctic before he went to tunisia. Or maybe the worm hole thingy is chilly?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> But this is all moot, if ben went somewhere cold like the arctic before he went to tunisia. Or maybe the worm hole thingy is chilly?


I am betting he did go to the Arctic first. Having the island connect to the Arctic explains the Polar Bears on the island.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> I think there is some leeway. I know the island isn't new zealand, but isn't that still in the south pacific?


The exact opposite of Tunisia is so close to New Zealand, it would be almost impossible to miss the kinds of anomalies that would be involved in hiding the island.


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

Waldorf said:


> My Arabic is worse than my Farsi, but it seemed to me they were arguing about why there were no footprints, hoofprints, *camel toad prints* , or anything leading to or from Ben's present position.


FYP


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

hefe said:


> Lost OAR...


I don't understand why anyone puts "OAD" in thread titles. What does it add? If you put the date in the title (as you should), then it's understood that the date refers to the broadcast date.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Anyone else think that the man and woman that were killed next to Sawyer were supposed to be Nikki and Paulo?


How would that work?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> How would that work?


I mean in the original plan for Nikki and Paulo, as opposed to killing them via spider bite/buried alive.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jericho Dog said:


> FYP


 I think it was correct the first time.


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> In thinking the rule wasn't "no family", but rather "no innocents". Ben finally breaks down and says something he clearly doesn't want to (because it breaks her heart): that she means nothing to him, she's a pawn, etc. That sounds like something you'd say as a last resort. Sure, he could just be grasping at straws, but it felt more like he was saying she wasn't a valid player of the game, she was just a bystander, so she was off limits.


Well, practically everyone who's died has been a "bystander"...and they were certainly "on limits". Widmore and Ben (themselves and by proxy) have been killing people pretty indiscriminately without a breakage of "rules". Not until Ben's daughter gets offed, that Ben goes berserk.

I think it's clear, looking back at Ben's dialog throughout the episode, that what he meant is that Widmore broke the rules by killing his daughter, and he's going to take out Penny now, in retribution and in contradiction to the rules. Widmore's got to find the Island, Ben's got to find Penny. "The race is on".


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jwehman said:


> Well, practically everyone who's died has been a "bystander"...and they were certainly "on limits". Widmore and Ben (themselves and by proxy) have been killing people pretty indiscriminately without a breakage of "rules". Not until Ben's daughter gets offed, that Ben goes berserk.
> 
> I think it's clear, looking back at Ben's dialog throughout the episode, that what he meant is that Widmore broke the rules by killing his daughter, and he's going to take out Penny now, in retribution and in contradiction to the rules. Widmore's got to find the Island, Ben's got to find Penny. "The race is on".


I agree. The rule had to have been a spoken one between Ben and Charles regarding no killing family members. It wouldn't make sense as anything else. Your post says why it has to be family and not "innocent" people, because everyone has know until now that Widmore planned to kill all the Others and the survivors of 815, and Ben never thought there was a rule changed until Alex was killed.

If it was the Island imposing the rule on them, it wouldn't make sense for Ben to say Charles "changed" the rules, as Charles would be incapable of doing that.

Now, the rule that they can't kill each other? Might be imposed by the Island.

I'm starting to think that the producers killed off "Charlie" in order to make "Charles" a more central character.  I've posted this before, but they couldn't give this Widmore guy a different first name? 

Anyone think Charles is Charlie, and that's why Desmond need to make sure Charlie ended up dead? I think my head just exploded.


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## DVC California (Jun 4, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> ...The people probably thought they were still working for Hanso when, in fact, they were working for Widmore...
> 
> ...Widmore has been trying to locate the island again. (As long as you have someone on the island to keep in contact with you, you can find it. When Widmore lost all of his people on the island to Ben, he lost the ability to even find the island). Ben has been working very hard to keep the island hidden from Widmore but his lack of understanding of the Swan facility allowed the "event".


Interesting but it has a few holes.

If Widmore took over Dharma (Hanso Project), how have they been able to do the air drops of supplies to the island? Several have occurred since Ben's takeover.

Also, if Widmore is Dharma, why even bother with the air drops if he knows that Ben took control of the island. I would have cut them off a long time ago.

I'm thinking that Dharma Classic will be re-introduced in the next season and that will explain some the anomolies, but probably introduce more conflict by adding a third leg of the triangle: Ben, Widmore, Dharma.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DVC California said:


> Interesting but it has a few holes.
> 
> If Widmore took over Dharma (Hanso Project), how have they been able to do the air drops of supplies to the island? Several have occurred since Ben's takeover.
> 
> Also, if Widmore is Dharma, why even bother with the air drops if he knows that Ben took control of the island. I would have cut them off a long time ago.


Further arguments for my they-dropped-the-food-drops-all-at-once-and-time-shifted-them-to-the-future theory. Excellent.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

DVC California said:


> Interesting but it has a few holes.
> 
> If Widmore took over Dharma (Hanso Project), how have they been able to do the air drops of supplies to the island? Several have occurred since Ben's takeover.
> 
> Also, if Widmore is Dharma, why even bother with the air drops if he knows that Ben took control of the island. I would have cut them off a long time ago.





jkeegan said:


> Further arguments for my they-dropped-the-food-drops-all-at-once-and-time-shifted-them-to-the-future theory. Excellent.


This works for me.  The properties of the island do seem to extend to the air. The helicopter had troubles coming into the island and leaving. The airplane was torn apart. Since Dharma knew more about the island than anyone, including Widmore and Ben, they could have used those properties to make a one time drop that would last decades. All of the Dharma food is shelf stable. It wouldn't have to be if it was being dropped in real time. At least not all of it.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Wow.

Great episode. But my head hurts.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

jenhudson said:


> Wow.
> 
> Great episode. *But my head hurts*.


That's when you know it is a good episode.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> This works for me.  The properties of the island do seem to extend to the air. The helicopter had troubles coming into the island and leaving. The airplane was torn apart.


The airplane was torn apart because of the pulse (the first time they let the timer expire), not because it flew over the island. I think the properties don't extend that far up.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

aindik said:


> I agree. The rule had to have been a spoken one between Ben and Charles regarding no killing family members. It wouldn't make sense as anything else. Your post says why it has to be family and not "innocent" people, because everyone has know until now that Widmore planned to kill all the Others and the survivors of 815, and Ben never thought there was a rule changed until Alex was killed.
> 
> If it was the Island imposing the rule on them, it wouldn't make sense for Ben to say Charles "changed" the rules, as Charles would be incapable of doing that.
> 
> ...


I know I posted my thoughts on this a few pages back, but I have to once again strongly disagree (and I recognize I appear to be in the minority here). It simply makes no sense to think that Ben, distraught over the death of his daughter (adopted or otherwise) tracks down Widmore, whom he thinks caused her to die by intentionally vioalting an agreed upon rule, only to continue to abide by those same agreed upon rules and refrain from killing Widmore. It makes even less sense that Ben would tell Widmore of his plan to kill Penny, when he damn well knows that Widmore has no problem breaking their agreed upon rules and could try and have Ben followed and killed before he succeeds. I think it is clear by both Ben's initial shock at his daughter's death and the final scene between Ben and Widmore that Ben's comment about rules was referring to something more than a gentlemen's agreement between them. I think it more likely that the so called rules Ben refers to are the same ones that prevented Michael from killing himself before it was time.

Edited to add:

I just noticed your comment that maybe the rule that they can't kill each other might be imposed by the island. Under this rationale, the island's will applies to Ben, Widmore, and, seemingly, Michael, but not to anyone else? I suppose this is possible, but it's certainly not fair to propose this while at the same time claim that it makes no sense for Ben's rule comment to refer to anything besides a prearranged agreement about killing family memebers.


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## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

aindik said:


> I agree. The rule had to have been a spoken one between Ben and Charles regarding no killing family members. It wouldn't make sense as anything else. Your post says why it has to be family and not "innocent" people, because everyone has know until now that Widmore planned to kill all the Others and the survivors of 815, and Ben never thought there was a rule changed until Alex was killed.
> 
> If it was the Island imposing the rule on them, it wouldn't make sense for Ben to say Charles "changed" the rules, as Charles would be incapable of doing that.
> 
> ...


I like this theory :up:

To add to the bolded text, what if Widmore and Ben are both unstuck in time, and are each other's constant? Adds credence to their "gentleman's agreement" to not kill any family as it could disrupt their own lives, and in turn each others.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

aindik said:


> I agree. The rule had to have been a spoken one between Ben and Charles regarding no killing family members. It wouldn't make sense as anything else. Your post says why it has to be family and not "innocent" people, because everyone has know until now that Widmore planned to kill all the Others and the survivors of 815, and Ben never thought there was a rule changed until Alex was killed.
> 
> If it was the Island imposing the rule on them, it wouldn't make sense for Ben to say Charles "changed" the rules, as Charles would be incapable of doing that.
> 
> ...


No, Widmore is nowhere near as annoying as Charlie was.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

3D said:


> I know I posted my thoughts on this a few pages back, but I have to once again strongly disagree (and I recognize I appear to be in the minority here). It simply makes no sense to think that Ben, distraught over the death of his daughter (adopted or otherwise) tracks down Widmore, whom he thinks caused her to die by intentionally vioalting an agreed upon rule, only to continue to abide by those same agreed upon rules and refrain from killing Widmore. It makes even less sense that Ben would tell Widmore of his plan to kill Penny, when he damn well knows that Widmore has no problem breaking their agreed upon rules and could try and have Ben followed and killed before he succeeds. I think it is clear by both Ben's initial shock at his daughter's death and the final scene between Ben and Widmore that Ben's comment about rules was referring to something more than a gentlemen's agreement between them. I think it more likely that the so called rules Ben refers to are the same ones that prevented Michael from killing himself before it was time.
> 
> Edited to add:
> 
> I just noticed your comment that maybe the rule that they can't kill each other might be imposed by the island. Under this rationale, the island's will applies to Ben, Widmore, and, seemingly, Michael, but not to anyone else? I suppose this is possible, but it's certainly not fair to propose this while at the same time claim that it makes no sense for Ben's rule comment to refer to anything besides a prearranged agreement about killing family memebers.


The Island's will applies to the people to whom the Island wants it to apply, I guess. Why Michael is on this list, I'm not sure. Could have something to do with Walt. It also seems to apply to that Russian other whose name is escaping me, and to Locke.

The Island couldn't possibly have been imposing the "don't kill relatives" rule. If it was, how could Charles possibly have "changed" it? If the Island didn't want Alex dead, Alex wouldn't be dead.

What's odd is, Ben said Charles "changed" the rules, rather than simply that he "broke" the rules. Perhaps that's just Ben's way of saying that the rules are now changed now that Charles broke them. Or, perhaps not.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

madscientist said:


> The airplane was torn apart because of the pulse (the first time they let the timer expire), not because it flew over the island. I think the properties don't extend that far up.


I'll agree. But the effects of the island did seem to extend to the height of a helicopter. A plane dropping supplies would be dropping them from a height where the plane is not impacted by the island but the supplies themselves would go through a layer that is impacted by the properties of the island.


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

ireland967 said:


> what if Widmore and Ben are both unstuck in time, and are each other's constant?


*Bam* you hit the nail on the head on why Ben did not kill Widmore. BTW: with this many posts I definity smeeked this,lol


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

aindik said:


> The Island couldn't possibly have been imposing the "don't kill relatives" rule. If it was, how could Charles possibly have "changed" it? If the Island didn't want Alex dead, Alex wouldn't be dead.


But my point is that I don't think there was a don't kill relatives rule. I think that for reasons that for the moment are unknown to us, Ben has a preconceived idea of the rules of the world/island. Under his understanding of those rules, Alex could not possibly die at that moment. I think Ben's amazed statement that "he changed the rules" could either mean that Widmore intentionally tried and succeeded at overcoming something that neither of them would have thought possible, or that Widmore's man, unbeknownst to Widmore, did something that shouldn't have been possible, thereby changing the rules (at least so far as they were previously understood by Ben). I will admit that my speculation is influenced by the theory that I posted to earlier involving time loops.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> The Island's will applies to the people to whom the Island wants it to apply, I guess. Why Michael is on this list, I'm not sure. Could have something to do with Walt. *It also seems to apply to that Russian other whose name is escaping me, and to Locke.*


Mikhail


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think it was correct the first time.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=391141


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Oh!!

It wasn't Charles that killed Ben's daughter, it was someone who _worked for him_. A hired killer.

Maybe Charles can't kill his family directly, but he can indirectly by having someone else kill for him.

And _that_ would be why Ben is using Sayid to kill people, and why he isn't just doing it himself!

(good luck getting Sayid to kill Penny!)


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Oh!!
> 
> It wasn't Charles that killed Ben's daughter, it was someone who _worked for him_. A hired killer.
> 
> ...


Along those lines, perhaps the Island/Jacob/Smokey only judge on physical deeds and not outsourced deeds. Did Ben want Locke to kill "The Man From Tallahassee" (I forget his real name - Cooper?). Was Ben trying to do Locke in with this task? If so, Locke's outsourcing to Sawyer kept him the good graces of the aforementioned mystical powers that be.


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## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

aindik said:


> The Island's will applies to the people to whom the Island wants it to apply, I guess. Why Michael is on this list, I'm not sure. Could have something to do with Walt. It also seems to apply to that Russian other whose name is escaping me, and to Locke.


And possibly to Jack in the future, who may have been saved from killing himself in the S3 finale by that car crash... Of course, by this line of reasoning it could also apply to Sawyer, who miraculously evaded machine gun fire by hiding behind a wooden picnic table and playground set, and to Claire, who survived her cottage being blown up by a missile! Funny how that works...


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> I'll agree. But the effects of the island did seem to extend to the height of a helicopter. A plane dropping supplies would be dropping them from a height where the plane is not impacted by the island but the supplies themselves would go through a layer that is impacted by the properties of the island.


Definitely the effects go up high enough to impact the helicopter. However, there's no way to know whether the effects are a dome over the island, or just in a circle around it. If the latter, then nothing dropped from the plane would be subject to the island effect.


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

I got the impression that Ben knew Alex wouldn't die because he'd seen her in the future. When he said 'He changed the rules.' I thought he was referring to that -- The rule is that if you see someone in the future, you can't kill them in the past because that would be changing the course of history.


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