# Why should I not change to Sky+



## campbeji (Oct 30, 2004)

Hi all,

Before I get flamed I have no intention or changing to Sky+.

I got into a discussion with a fried recently with a friend who had got a new sky+ box and was telling me how good it was, he told me I should change away from Tivo because Sky+ was better. Nonsense I thought, but I have had no experience of Sky+ to be able to compare the two.

So what are the pro's and con's of Tivo as opposed to Sky+.

Thanks

Jim


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Sky+ = twin tuners, Dolby 5.1 sound
TiVo = everything else! :up:

Honestly, the Sky+ user interface is utter pants - a poorly thought out, crappy, cheap, addition to the normal Sky EPG. It has about 5&#37; of the functionality of a TiVo.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

I have to agree with blindlemon

Sky+ is usefull if you need 2 tuners, but you are losing a lot in reliability and use if you go for this reason...

Hard to describe, you will just have to trust me..

I used Sky+ for the minimum 12 months before I ditched it with so much joy.....




Now, if you (as I am) looking at the HD service, that may be a different matter...

I would have Sky HD with the basic sky subscription. I would NOT pay Sky the extra &#163;10 for the HD feed on sky channels. The HD feed from BBC, ITV etc... will be free...

I just want to see how the relaunch of the HD service this spring, with BBC, ITV CH4 all coming on board will work.

I hate the fact that the HD channels are all over the place on different channel numbers..

They should have a option for SD HD in the menu, and the 101, 102, 103 etc... feeds will be the HD ones, if thats what has been set.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

If you buy a copy of DigiGuide as well that helps but of course a manual task selecting items to record.

DigiGuide program data is typically more accurate than Tivo's data leading to the correct program being recorded.

I would also make the jump to Sky+ HD if you can afford the extra cost.

http://www.getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=69933

It is also claimed Sky after hundreds of years are going to upgrade the EPG on later Sky boxes to introduce more features and even may cache the data on the hard drive for faster access and while dual recording.

Other Sky+ points
Better Picture (compared with a standard Tivo and the best possible in UK with Sky HD)
Less clutter in your living room.
Green, low power consumption of equipment.
Current, not last century's technology
Subtitles for hard of hearing

Automan.


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

Gary Sargent did a Tivo vs Sky+ a while back. It is still available on Tivo Portal
http://www.garysargent.co.uk/tivo/TIVOvsSKY.htm

Another nice Tivo feature is its hackability  (and the Glo remote).


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

Automan said:


> Other Sky+ points
> ...
> Current, not last century's technology


Older technology was built to last. 



> Subtitles for hard of hearing
> Automan.


Isn't that because the Sky+ box is a tuner and HDD recorder in the same box? Tivo can do subtitles if the STB supports it.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Re subtitles the older teletext ones can work with Tivo if you have 2.5.5 and a TV that does not object.

If Digital subtitles are set to on in the Sky setup menu Tivo will of course record them with the picture but no option if someone else wants to watch that program without them.

Sky+ supports all the formats of Subtitles that work.

Automan.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Sky+ (and most other PVRs) can only record directly from the guide.

That limitation, and the lack of any sort of keyword, genre etc search or auto-record kills them dead for me.


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

Next time you are round at your mates ask to watch something with commercial breaks from his Sky + planner and then keep moaning when he cannot jump the ads as it is so much easier on TiVo but really tricky using the Sky +.

You can also ask him to try and find when the next episode of a particular series is scheduled. Again no search facility on Sky +, plenty of scope to search using title or keywords on TiVo.

Ask him to record a programme that has already started Sky + will have nothing in the buffer whereas TiVo will stitch on the previous half hour if no channel change is necessary.

Lastly ask him how much it will cost him to subscribe to sky over the next 12 months


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Major dude said:


> Ask him to record a programme that has already started Sky + will have nothing in the buffer whereas TiVo will stitch on the previous half hour if no channel change is necessary.


Sky+ does that also. Just press record twice and it will save all of the current program (assuming it was on that channel since program start).

Automan.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Sky+ has the benefits of:

Picture quality - stores the actual broadcast data with no re-encoding
Twin Tuners
(In principle) live EPG updating for over-running events
More comprehensive EPG data (more channels with full data)
Dolby 5.1 (some boxes only)
Better Dolby Pro Logic (the 32kHz re-encode from TiVo makes a bit of a mess of the phase info that encoded surround uses)
Press green to set up a recording in a trailer
Ability to record stuff shown on "Press Red" interactive channels, ie you can record the football march that's available through Press Red.
Ability output in HDMI and component (some boxes)

TiVos advantages are of course legion.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Automan said:


> Sky+ does that also. Just press record twice and it will save all of the current program (assuming it was on that channel since program start).
> 
> Automan.


It never used to when I had it, but I suppose sky+ is a product that is continously being upgraded and money is being but into development from the profits of its subscriptions. Afterall we have to be greatfull as the SKY+ service is free, and they are not charging £10 per month for it.

Also, the skipping and forwarding is not as clever as TiVo which skips back, but you do (After time) get used to it..

Also with regards to cost, you can get a subscription for £16 PCM, the entainment pack has loads of good channels over Freeview, loads of the +1hr on most channels which is usefull if you are using tivo.

Also with this you get free broadband, and £135 Quidco cash back.

So for my year, it is costing £16 x 12 = £184 - £135 Quidco Total £49, for my sky box, install, and broadband via a LLU ADSL2 for the year which is a bargain.

EDIT: I think I pay £17 as I have added another pack?? Incase I mentioned it on another thread.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

The save rewind TV buffer feature was added sometime 2007 which I must admit have only used about three or four times.

One last + is the ability to browse the what's on (program names only) while you are playing a recording.

I find a lot of TV now lacks interest so at least I can search for another program to record or watch while playing a recording.

No such information is available with Tivo while playing a recording it has made.

Automan.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

6022tivo said:


> I hate the fact that the HD channels are all over the place on different channel numbers..
> 
> They should have a option for SD HD in the menu, and the 101, 102, 103 etc... feeds will be the HD ones, if thats what has been set.


From the Sky Guide - selecting HD channels just lists the HD channels.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

Major dude said:


> Ask him to record a programme that has already started Sky + will have nothing in the buffer whereas TiVo will stitch on the previous half hour if no channel change is necessary.


The Sky users chooses whether this is enabled and then can choose 5, 15, 30 or 60 minutes - TiVo is fixed at 30 (unless hacked).


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

TCM2007 said:


> Sky+ has the benefits of:
> 
> More comprehensive EPG data (more channels with full data)


but only 7 days for tv only - TiVo has up to 21 for tv and radio


TCM2007 said:


> Press green to set up a recording in a trailer


Only working on Sky branded channels at present


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

6022tivo said:


> Also, the skipping and forwarding is not as clever as TiVo which skips back, but you do (After time) get used to it..


Must disagree strongly here.

Sky+/HD is a guess as to when the ads finish - although some channels (like Sky and ITV) now run trailers for their own programmes - so you can stop FF as soon as this appear. But this is a bit of pot luck. I've has Sky+ since the launch and have never got used to the fact that FF stops and you then have to rewind back.

TiVo will rewind back slightly automatically and within a few minutes you master the art of hitting play at the right moment.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

Automan said:


> Sky+ does that also. Just press record twice and it will save all of the current program (assuming it was on that channel since program start).
> 
> Automan.


But Sky+ decides to dump the buffer whenever you access the planner 

Sky+ software is really last century - no enabled ethernet!


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

ozsat said:


> TiVo will rewind back slightly automatically and within a few minutes you master the art of hitting play at the right moment.


You can also stop it doing this with one of the 'backdoor codes' mentioned earlier.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

ozsat said:


> Must disagree strongly here.
> 
> Sky+/HD is a guess as to when the ads finish - although some channels (like Sky and ITV) now run trailers for their own programmes - so you can stop FF as soon as this appear. But this is a bit of pot luck. I've has Sky+ since the launch and have never got used to the fact that FF stops and you then have to rewind back.
> 
> TiVo will rewind back slightly automatically and within a few minutes you master the art of hitting play at the right moment.


With TiVo and MCE I use multiple clicks of the skip 30 seconds button, which I find requires less concentration to get right.

Fortunately Sky is very formulaic with its ad breaks and you learn to drop out at the end of the movie trailer before the program restarts!


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

I used to use a Pronto remote with Sky+ to compensate for advert into program over chute.

The FF key would issue FF three times to Sky+ for maximum speed.
Play would issue play, rewind twice, brief pause and then play.

Automan.


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

Automan said:


> I used to use a Pronto remote with Sky+ to compensate for advert into program over chute.
> 
> The FF key would issue FF three times to Sky+ for maximum speed.
> Play would issue play, rewind twice, brief pause and then play.
> ...


It makes you wonder, if you can think up such a simple solution, which gives significant added value to a product, why the designers seem entirely incapable of doing the same.

The argument could also be made to tivo though. Tivo software engineers could never get soft padding to work properly, it really did seem beyond them, despite numerous software revisions. Yet some person on this board comes up with endpad, which actually does the job exactly as necessary...


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

Automan said:


> It is also claimed Sky after hundreds of years are going to upgrade the EPG on later Sky boxes to introduce more features and even may cache the data on the hard drive for faster access and while dual recording.
> 
> Automan.


But, are we going to see more genuine functionality? I just get the feeling we are going to see a revamp along the lines of 'Anytime', in the sense we get to see picture in picture and a general cosmetic upgrade.

If Sky+ implemented their season link in a more reliable way, and then offered the priority/season pass functionality, then Tivo might be able to be put to bed....


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

Automan said:


> One last + is the ability to browse the what's on (program names only) while you are playing a recording.
> 
> I find a lot of TV now lacks interest so at least I can search for another program to record or watch while playing a recording.
> 
> ...


With a networked Tivo, you can do this via Tivoweb.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

gazter said:


> If Sky+ implemented their season link in a more reliable way, and then offered the priority/season pass functionality, then Tivo might be able to be put to bed....


I haven't had a problem with Series Links being unreliable. It's sometimes hard to set them up though, particularly when you're working more than a day or two ahead.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

TCM2007 said:


> I haven't had a problem with Series Links being unreliable. It's sometimes hard to set them up though, particularly when you're working more than a day or two ahead.


Does it now remember them between programme series, even if there's a six-month gap?


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## mikeyp (Dec 22, 2005)

correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't tivo have a patent on trick play, meaning other pvrs couldn't take advantage of ff and rw live tv?


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

iankb said:


> Does it now remember them between programme series, even if there's a six-month gap?


I think there is a 28-day limit on Sky+


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

mikeyp said:


> correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't tivo have a patent on trick play, meaning other pvrs couldn't take advantage of ff and rw live tv?


Tivo has lots of patents:
the PVR concept, overshoot correction etc..:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=337526


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

with the patents holding back development by other companies, and their companys stagnation in general.

Is it now time to consider Tivo to be an impediment to further pvr development?


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

gazter said:


> with the patents holding back development by other companies, and their companys stagnation in general.
> 
> Is it now time to consider Tivo to be an impediment to further pvr development?


No,

PVR development is ongoing and, AIUI, Tivo is still leading the way.

Just not in this country


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## davisa (Feb 19, 2002)

campbeji said:


> So what are the pro's and con's of Tivo as opposed to Sky+.


Sky+ only works with Sky. This means you need a dish. We're not allowed one. End of discussion.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

davisa said:


> Sky+ only works with Sky. This means you need a dish. We're not allowed one. End of discussion.


Are you away of Sky's Free Shared Dish scheme where they will cable your block for a communal hidden (usually up on the roof somewhere) Sky satellite dish and a point in each flat as long as at least four residents are willing to sign up for a minimum Sky package at £16 per month for one year.

See http://communaltv.sky.com/aboutResident.aspx

and

http://communaltv.sky.com/managingRegister.aspx


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## TonyW (Mar 26, 2001)

Interesting thread; I know this has been much discussed in the past, but things change as far as the rivals to TiVo go. As our boxes are now getting very elderly (mine has been running pretty well non-stop for several years) it has been on my mind recently. 

What will happen when my box fails? I will have a choice of spending money on fixing the trusty TiVo or - given the very sad lack of UK Tivo development - switching to a rival. 

For my own purposes, the the key things TiVo lacks in the UK are
- dual tuner;
- automatic padding (without having to hack the thing).

Sky+ would give me both of those as well as some comfort the thing is still being supported but at the expense of
- user-friendly interface;
- reliable season passes (unless they've fixed it, I recall a lot of complaints about missing programmes in the past);
- search by wishlist feature;
- upcoming programmes searching etc. which I find very valuable.

I haven't heard much about Media Centre PCs lately; IIRC (and I may be wrong) that would deal with most of the above except that it lacks support for dual tuners (even if, for example, one tuner was fed form a Sky box and another from aerial for terrestrial tv)

My question is, is the above a fair (if brief) summary or have any of these things changed? Are Media Centre PCs a sensible choice to replace a Tivo or have they been left behind?


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

TonyW said:


> I haven't heard much about Media Centre PCs lately; IIRC (and I may be wrong) that would deal with most of the above except that it lacks support for dual tuners (even if, for example, one tuner was fed form a Sky box and another from aerial for terrestrial tv)


My understanding is that it can handle two inputs providing they are the same (2 x sky, 2 x freeview, 2 x aerial etc) it just can't mix them.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

TonyW said:


> What will happen when my box fails?


Buy another on ebay for £50 ?
Normally in the techie world, newer is better and more fully featured. In the PVR market this isn't true (regardless of money spent).


> For my own purposes, the the key things TiVo lacks in the UK are
> - dual tuner;
> - automatic padding (without having to hack the thing).


Bzzt. Can't allow your second point as its really easy to install endpad or similar.


> I haven't heard much about Media Centre PCs lately; IIRC (and I may be wrong) that would deal with most of the above except that it lacks support for dual tuners (even if, for example, one tuner was fed form a Sky box and another from aerial for terrestrial tv)


MCE can do dual tuners as standard (or more with a hack)

But all tuners have to be the same type, i.e. you can have 7 freeview tuners, but not one freeview and one analogue/sky.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TonyW said:


> As our boxes are now getting very elderly (mine has been running pretty well non-stop for several years) it has been on my mind recently.


Our Tivos have only been running 5 to 7 years at most.

By contrast both my fridge and freezer and my boiler have been running for 17years now and I see no reason to replace them unless they fail. If I replaced the fridge and freezer I can probably save £20 to £30 a year electricity (even though they were the most efficient Bosh devices of the time) but that would take me around 15 years to recover in new equipment cost. And as I don't plan to live here another 15 years and can earn interest on that money in the interim it isn't worth it. Ditto my boiler just keeps me warm and uses about £400 per annum of gas and has been running for 17 years but to replace it with a more efficient condenser boiler would cost over £2,000 and save at most £60 per annnum of gas. That would take me 30 years to get back so clearly not worth it unless it fails.

In my view the only reason to get rid of Tivo is if:-

(a) Tivo withdraws the UK service and no adequate alternate data source for those us using network cards replaces it.

(b) So much program contents start being broadcast in HD that the use of a PVR that does not support HD recording is very serious disadvantage.

Think how many other 7 year old bits of equipment that you own that you perfectly happy with and have no intention of currently replacing. So why should Tivo be any different?


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

I don't think I have anything electrical in my house that is still in use and is older than my Tivo boxes.

Except my central heating boiler which I think is about nine years old.

Automan.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Automan said:


> I don't think I have anything electrical in my house that is still in use and is older than my Tivo boxes.


Why would you have replaced your fridge, freezer, cooker, dishwasher or washing machine unless they stopped working?

Its not as though later models have significantly more exciting product features.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

I think they all failed.
fridge/freezer - never got down to temperature
washing machine - bearings went
cooker - upper oven door broke off twice at hinges
dishwasher - failed, did not replace
microwave - browning element failed
kettle - element went

Now my water cooler is playing up making funny noises and cool led flickering 

Automan.


Pete77 said:


> Why would you have replaced your fridge, freezer, cooker, dishwasher or washing machine unless they stopped working?
> 
> Its not as though later models have significantly more exciting product features.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Automan said:


> I think they all failed.
> fridge/freezer - never got down to temperature
> washing machine - bearings went
> cooker - upper oven door broke off twice at hinges
> ...


This can't have been Neff/Bosch/Siemens or Miele or even Zanussi kit then. Perhaps it is all Hotpoint, Creda or Philips stuff?

Even if a door on Bosch/Neff/Siemens stuff breaks they keep the hinges etc for about 15 years (although admittedly at a price). Just got new wheels and a new cutlery rack for my mum's Bosch dishwasher and I put a new handle on my own Neff oven 5 or 6 years ago (I believe the previous owner's infant had probably used it as an exercise bar). Also renewed a hinge on the built in fridge door about 3 years ago. I supposed with a cheap make you would just have had to bin the whole unit.

Even the bloody Philips tv determinedly chugs on even though I would rather it turned up its toes so I could justify splashing out on a new high tech widescreen plasma full HD affair.


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## TonyW (Mar 26, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> Our Tivos have only been running 5 to 7 years at most.
> 
> By contrast both my fridge and freezer and my boiler have been running for 17years now and I see no reason to replace them unless they fail.


Agreed but Tivos are effectively computers. I don't think many computers would last 7 years when they've been switched on and working 24/7. I'm very impressed that it's done as well as it has, I've had problem with computer parts after less time and they're used an hour or two a day, not 24hrs a day.

White goods are simple products which are designed to last many years but hard drives, PSUs etc. are not.

I would buy a new UK Tivo like a shot but the problem I would have with buying a second hand one is that it will also have had several years of constant use, and therefore I'd worry how long that would last.

Another thought, I don't suppose anything came of the release of new Tivos in overseas PAL countries (SE Asia I think)? I seem to recall that when this news came out there was a suggestion that it may be possible to use them in the UK (like the UK tivos taken to Australia), as opposed to the incompatable US NTSC Tivos.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TonyW said:


> I would buy a new UK Tivo like a shot but the problem I would have with buying a second hand one is that it will also have had several years of constant use, and therefore I'd worry how long that would last.


The only part likely to have a short life is the hard drive and everything else in a Tivo is solid state and ought to have a longish life.

Secondhand Tivos are not expensive and at least would allow you to continue the Tivo service as long as is possible in the UK.

None of us are going to live forever but we can't spend our whole life worrying about that inevitability of that outcome can we? Same thing goes with the possible eventual failure of your own Tivo or the whole UK Tivo service.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Automan said:


> dishwasher - failed, did not replace
> Automan.


Wow... Something I could not live without anymore..


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> Wow... Something I could not live without anymore..


Likewise would not live without mine.

Also now remarkably cheap to buy and very cheap to run given that they spend the majority of their life turned off rather than dishwashing.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Last night the rugby KO was delayed 15 mins; TiVo missed the end, Sky+ adjusted fine.

First time I've seen this actually work, mind!


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

TCM2007 said:


> Last night the rugby KO was delayed 15 mins; TiVo missed the end, Sky+ adjusted fine.
> 
> First time I've seen this actually work, mind!


I would be annoyed that tivo had caught any of it


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Of course I suspect most of us would have bought a new Tivo if one had been on offer and personal budgets permit.

The problem is no such beast exist 

Automan.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Automan said:


> The problem is no such beast exist


Or rather it exists but we Brits are denied it in just the same way that we are denied the American freedom to carry firearms or the German freedom to drive at whatever speed we see fit on the Autobahn.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Utter rubbish Pete. There is no law forbidding the selling of Series 3 TiVos in the UK; and it's the law which prevents those other things.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Utter rubbish Pete. There is no law forbidding the selling of Series 3 TiVos in the UK; and it's the law which prevents those other things.


But nonetheless it is still another of those things we are denied due to living in Britain. Which was surely the point I was making.

However I have long since realised that you will always rearrange all points of view you do not like so as to ensure that you win the argument.

Have you by any chance at any stage thought of entering a career in politics TCM.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

You were the one who very deliberately said "we Brits are denied it *in just the same way *that we ".

I presumed you used your words precisely Pete, was I wrong?


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

However much one might object to not having every US product readily available in the UK, and at US prices, think how bad for technological-advancement it would have been if we hadn't had that large consumer market on the other side of the pond that stimulated the development in the first place.

Whereas countries such as Japan have just as active a stimulation, they have never really felt the need to expand into Europe, with the lack of local investment, and the necessary conversions of technological infrastructures and of software interfaces. They are quite happy supporting their own internal markets.

Just think ourselves lucky that we speak (almost) the same language as in the US, so that we don't have the problems of most other countries in Europe, where they might have difficulty getting localized versions of US-developed products.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Do any of the USA modern Tivo's record from a HDMI input using HDCP for recording protection?

If yes, with UK program data surely such a device should be easy to make work in the UK (with Tivo's backing of course for program data, support, etc)

Automan.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

One of my TiVo has automatically set Taggart to record the new ITV1 series on Tuesdays 9pm - it also reports it can't record the new CSI due to the clash!

My other TiVo has automatically set CSI to record the new Five series on Tuesdays 9pm - it also reports it can't record the new Taggart due to the clash!


Sky+ requires me to add both new series due to the fact they haven't been on for at least a few weeks - also:
I can only set the one episode of Taggart as Sky+/HD indicates it has no series link!
I can only set the one episode of CSI as Sky+/HD series link fails for this series!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ozsat said:


> One of my TiVo has automatically set Taggart to record the new ITV1 series on Tuesdays 9pm - it also reports it can't record the new CSI due to the clash!
> 
> My other TiVo has automatically set CSI to record the new Five series on Tuesdays 9pm - it also reports it can't record the new Taggart due to the clash!
> 
> ...


Its good to know that Sky+ Series Links are still a sad joke. I wonder if Freeview Playback boxes will perform any better than this?


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

One may want to take a glance at http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=721895

The life of a Series link seems to be down to whoever looks after the epg for that channel.

Automan.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Automan said:


> Do any of the USA modern Tivo's record from a HDMI input using HDCP for recording protection?
> 
> If yes, with UK program data surely such a device should be easy to make work in the UK (with Tivo's backing of course for program data, support, etc)
> 
> Automan.


No. HD TiVos can only record a direct source.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

Automan said:


> Do any of the USA modern Tivo's record from a HDMI input using HDCP for recording protection?


AFAIK no consumer electronic device under 5k can record HD from an analogue output or HDMI output as the data rate is so high.

If you have a very beefy PC and terabytes of disk space in a very fast eSATA RAID array you can do this. If using HDMI you need a naughty HDCP-stripping device as well.


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