# Lost - 5/23/07 - Through the Looking Glass (SPOILERS)



## jkeegan

Here we go!


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## unicorngoddess

Woo hoo!


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## flyers088

that was a strange opening!


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## unicorngoddess

Way to go Bernard. You're gone all season and this is what they brought you back for???


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## betts4

unicorngoddess said:


> Way to go Bernard. You're gone all season and this is what they brought you back for???


Darn him!!!! I was screaming at the tv.

But man, Charlie is pretty good!


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## philw1776

Hobbits RULE!
Gotta luv the submarine hotties.
Girrlz n' gunz!


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

I SOOOO want Ben dead.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

HEY, Mike and Nessa together again.. well sort of.


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## unicorngoddess

I think Hurley's going to end up saving the day...


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## unicorngoddess

OMG. No wonder they let Walt leave...holy crap!


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## philw1776

My man John has "work to do."


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## CorgiMom28

unicorngoddess said:


> OMG. No wonder they let Walt leave...holy crap!


Yeah, no kidding!

Poor Hurley!


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## mwhip

I am only about 30 minutes through and am totally free on spoilers prior to this showing but my guess is Jack is having a flash forward but I am going to be sooooo wrong.


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## unicorngoddess

I wouldn't have stopped until I smashed his skull in...


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## philw1776

Finally, I'm likin' Jack


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## scottykempf

Let's see. Threaten Sayid, nope, he knows about torture and would never budge. Torture Jin?, nope, he's a badass, he would never spill the beans. Threaten Bernard? He folded like a house of cards. Why would Bernard talk to save Jin? By doing so, he endangers the other survivors including HIS WIFE! At the very least, he kills their chance at a rescue!


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## CorgiMom28

Go Hurley!!!


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## philw1776

scottykempf said:


> Let's see. Threaten Sayid, nope, he knows about torture and would never budge. Torture Jin?, nope, he's a badass, he would never spill the beans. Threaten Bernard? He folded like a house of cards. Why would Bernard talk to save Jin? By doing so, he endangers the other survivors including HIS WIFE! At the very least, he kills their chance at a rescue!


He's a dentist. Nuff said.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

Wow Sawyer, I guess the killing gets easier.


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## philw1776

G'day Mr Friendly!


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## unicorngoddess

philw1776 said:


> He's a dentist. Nuff said.


He's definately no Rambo.


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## cheesesteak

Go, Sawyer!

Hurley: "Dude, it was over. He surrendered."
Me: "Let me climb through this tv and break my foot off in your big butt, you moron"


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## scottykempf

Also, why would Charlie tell the underwater girls that Juliet told them about The Looking Glass station? As soon as he told them that Juliet turned on Ben, they contacted Ben and told him, which affected what he did next. So Charlie gave an advantage away to the enemy.

And I admit to saying about the VW van "Who thinks that this is the last we will ever see the van?" when Hurley took his first joy ride in it? I was wrong.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

I think for this episode, I could do without the flashbacks.


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## markz

Why didn't Charlie shut the hatch from the outside of the control room? WTF?


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## unicorngoddess

He could swim out the window and go up. And couldn't he have written something more like Naomi is lying...to make your message more clear.


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## philw1776

The exec producers were dead on when they said LOST was about bringing out heroism in difficult circumstances. This Finale is everything that a well written finale should be.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

g"day mate.


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## Sirius Black

unicorngoddess said:


> I think Hurley's going to end up saving the day...


I had to go to IMDB to figure out where I'd seen James Lesure before. I should have known it right away. I had no idea that was Nessa though. Keeping it spoiler free.


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## zync

DANG IT! I was screaming at the TV. Charlie could have HELD HIS BREATH and waited and then swim through the huge hole and then up to the surface.

sigh... smeeked.


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## unicorngoddess

Wtf???


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

wow


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## zync

uh... maps? 

Edit: oh wait... I was delayed 2 minutes... now I can say... WTF?!?


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## markz

Who's funeral? TELL ME!!!!


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## markz

I was just about to ask why you'd ever fly Oceanic again. Now I know!


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## unicorngoddess

So...free flights for life if you survive a plane crash and end up deserted on an island for many months.


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## CorgiMom28

O... M... G!!!


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## scottykempf

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> I think for this episode, I could do without the flashbacks.


What flashbacks? 



> DANG IT! I was screaming at the TV. Charlie could have HELD HIS BREATH and waited and then swim through the huge hole and then up to the surface.
> /
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, yes, yes. No reason for Charlie to die. Either wait to type in the code until Desmond is standing right next to you with the air tanks, OR after Mikhail has blown the porthole out, wait and then swim through the hole to the surface. Even if the porthole was a tight fit, Charlie is kinda skinny. Way better than dying for no reason!!! OR instead of sealing off the room, let the water fill the station, which because it is a rather large area to fill, will give you and Desmond time to grab the tanks and THEN when the station is full of water, you two can swim to the surface at your leisure!!!
Click to expand...


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## David Scavo

markz said:


> Who's funeral? TELL ME!!!!


My guess is Locke


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## ufo4sale

Was his father dead in this flash back or not? He was talking about him like he was still alive. Very strange.


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## unicorngoddess

David Scavo said:


> My guess is Locke


Good guess, I'll go with that.


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## zync

ufo4sale said:


> Was his father dead in this flash back or not? He was talking about him like he was still alive. Very strange.


Flash forward?!?


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## TomK

So they got off the island and now Jack wants to go back? Or was that an 'in the possible future' flash forward?


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## Paperboy2003

The coffin was too small for it to be an adult.

Wouldnt Kate be in jail if she were back in 'reality'?

Too much to digest...

Walt sure got taller


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## Sparty99

Wow...just...wow.

But what was up with Jack's comment about his father being in the hospital. It's safe to assume that all of the "flashback" scenes were actually flash forwards, right? so how is Jack's dad being brought up?

I'm guessing the funeral was Locke's.


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## Bierboy

Holy crap....what an ending!!!


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## unicorngoddess

ufo4sale said:


> Was his father dead in this flash back or not? He was talking about him like he was still alive. Very strange.


I think the reason he got the strange look was because the other doctor KNEW Christian Shephard was dead.


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## pcguru83

I so called the flash forward to my wife.  

This is what season finale's are supposed to be like. Take that Heroes!!


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## MMG

It was a Flash Forward. His father was dead and he was forging Rx's on his dad's Rx pad to get more OxyContin.


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## CorgiMom28

I was thinking Sawyer... but who is the "he" that was waiting?


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## brermike

Considering how knocked up on oxy he was, he wasn't probably in a right state of mind. Either that or he was being sarcastic about how drunk his dad always was. They made a point reminding us that Christain was dead in the episode so I think it was just a clever way to make us think it was a flashback instead of a flashforward. Very cool indeed!!!


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## Mike Farrington

ufo4sale said:


> Was his father dead in this flash back or not? He was talking about him like he was still alive. Very strange.


Wow, that totally slipped by me (once I realized it was a flash-forward). Jack's dad is alive in this future? That's F'd up!


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## Rob Helmerichs

scottykempf said:


> Yes, yes, yes. No reason for Charlie to die. Either wait to type in the code until Desmond is standing right next to you with the air tanks, OR after Mikhail has blown the porthole out, wait and then swim through the hole to the surface. Even if the porthole was a tight fit, Charlie is kinda skinny. Way better than dying for no reason!!! OR instead of sealing off the room, let the water fill the station, which because it is a rather large area to fill, will give you and Desmond time to grab the tanks and THEN when the station is full of water, you two can swim to the surface at your leisure!!!


Except when Mikhail blew the window, he had already turned off the jammer. All he had to do was LEAVE THE ROOM before he closed the door.


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## Bierboy

CorgiMom28 said:


> I was thinking Sawyer... but who is the "he" that was waiting?


I thought the "he" might be Sawyer.


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## scottykempf

So is the "he" that Kate had to get back to James? Must go back and watch all the Jack scenes in a new light.


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## flyers088

David Scavo said:


> My guess is Locke


My guess is Michael. Out of left field but they made it seem like no one else got off the island but Kate and Jack. I like how they left Kate's mystery man a secret (we both guess Sawyer, but it would not work with the idea that no one else got off the island) so they can write what ever they want and still be in line with this story.


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## Sirius Black

Lots to ponder and a whole new set of questions. 

Didn't Walt said off with Daddy? What's he doing back? If it was Walk to start with, that is.

I figured the "he" was Sawyer as well.


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## mostman

OK - two things.

First - like ufo said above - what was Jack talking about his father like he was alive? There is a reason they wrote that in - probably a major one.

Second - for those asking why did Charlie not swim out. He knew he was supposed to die. He locked Desmond out to relieve Desmond from having to save him again - and again - and again. He was doing the noble thing.


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## Bierboy

Wow.....seven months now to speculate....let it begin!!!! Lost found its mojo  !!!!


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## Paperboy2003

It was Charlies 'destiny' to die in order for everyone else to live. I guess he felt that if he didn't drown there, the others wouldn't be rescued.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

scottykempf said:


> What flashbacks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DANG IT! I was screaming at the TV. Charlie could have HELD HIS BREATH and waited and then swim through the huge hole and then up to the surface.
> /
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, yes, yes. No reason for Charlie to die. Either wait to type in the code until Desmond is standing right next to you with the air tanks, OR after Mikhail has blown the porthole out, wait and then swim through the hole to the surface. Even if the porthole was a tight fit, Charlie is kinda skinny. Way better than dying for no reason!!! OR instead of sealing off the room, let the water fill the station, which because it is a rather large area to fill, will give you and Desmond time to grab the tanks and THEN when the station is full of water, you two can swim to the surface at your leisure!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ya ya I guess they were cool
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## fluffie

it has to be walt's funeral.


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## Paperboy2003

it wasnt really Walt...it was the smoke monster mimiciing Walt (as it did to Shannon and Eco) in order to motivate someone


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## CorgiMom28

Sirius Black said:


> Lots to ponder and a whole new set of questions.
> 
> Didn't Walt said off with Daddy? What's he doing back? If it was Walk to start with, that is.
> 
> I figured the "he" was Sawyer as well.


I got the impression that Walt was a vision... similar the the one's that Shannon got right before she got killed


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## MacThor

The plasma flat screen on the wall of the hospital and then Jack's RAZR or KRZR or whatever phone he had gave the flash forwards away. Yes, I know they had plasmas prior to Fall of 2004 but their prices hadn't quite dropped to the point where hospitals would be putting them up willy-nilly.

Great episode. I so wonder who Naomi's group is, and what Ben (and Locke) knows.


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## markz

serumgard said:


> Wow...just...wow.
> 
> But what was up with Jack's comment about his father being in the hospital. It's safe to assume that all of the "flashback" scenes were actually flash forwards, right? so how is Jack's dad being brought up?
> 
> I'm guessing the funeral was Locke's.


I don't think Locke would have left the island. Locke & Rousso neither one want to leave.

I think "he" that was waiting for Kate is Sawyer. And I think the funeral was Ben's.


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## unicorngoddess

fluffie said:


> it has to be walt's funeral.


But why would nobody be at Walt's funeral?


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## Mavenelle

Holy Crap.

That was exhausting.


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## Paperboy2003

I'm going to hate it when / if Ben was correct. Perhaps next season it will be Ben and the others along with Jacks crew battling the people from the ship...


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## dianebrat

now *THAT* is the way to end a season.. holyflashforward.
I hadn't even pondered a flash forward, what a great jaw dropping surprise. then add in jack wanting to be back, Naomi not being who she claimed AND Penny in the Looking Glass video feed.

wow.. I was counting myself as jaded, but wow..

let me be the first of many to exclaim "Lost is BACK!" (ironic timing on that one BTW)


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## scottykempf

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except when Mikhail blew the window, he had already turned off the jammer. All he had to do was LEAVE THE ROOM before he closed the door.


Of course, by "no reason for Charlie to die" I really meant "no reason for Charlie to get trapped in a room full of water, write on his hand NOT PENNYS BOAT to show Desmond, then float backwards BUT still leave open the possibility that Charlie survives by swimming out the porthole between seasons.

As they say, unless they explicitly kill a character, never assume anything.

Heck, if Mikhail can survive the sonic fence, then survive getting shot in the chest with a harpoon, maybe he can survive a grenade blowing up in his hand and Charlie can survive too?


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## drew2k

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> I think for this episode, I could do without the flashbacks.


But it wasn't a flashback ... it was a flashforward.


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## Sirius Black

Just think now they can tell the story of the events that happen on the island up to the start of the flashback tonight and the story of Jack (and others (?) ) getting back to the island for some unknown reason. Lots of story left to tell. It's going to be a long wait.


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## scottykempf

Paperboy2003 said:


> it wasnt really Walt...it was the smoke monster mimiciing Walt (as it did to Shannon and Eco) in order to motivate someone


BUT why wouldn't the smoke monster make Walt look exactly as he did when he left the island instead of all growed up?


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## CorgiMom28

markz said:


> I don't think Locke would have left the island. Locke & Rousso neither one want to leave.
> 
> I think "he" that was waiting for Kate is Sawyer. And I think the funeral was Ben's.


If it were Ben's why would Jack be so upset enought to attempt suicide? But... it's "Lost" so who knows!


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## Paperboy2003

Yeah, it has to be someone's funeral who no one knew and who was reviled by those who did know him.

Someone who was on an island their whole life could bring a funeral like that, but then again I don't think Jack would be upset if it was Ben's funeral (unless they became allies)


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## sushikitten

First, I think it was really only an hour what with the commercials every 8 seconds (it seemed). But wow, a totally WTF finale.

Some thoughts:
- I knew they couldn't have killed the three guys on the beach. 
- Wow Locke sure made good time, being shot and all and catching up to everyone.
- GO HURLEY! I totally didn't expect that.
- So who is Naomi??!?!?!??!?!?
- I am totally confused with the flash forward, so...great finale.
- Yes, Charlie could have done any of those things to save himself, but he was already resigned to dying as seen in the vision, thinking he had to to save Claire.

ETA: Wow, a whole page of posts while I was composing.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

In the Flash Forward, the way Jack and Kate were talkin to each other, that they still don't know they are bro/sis?


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## drew2k

zync said:


> DANG IT! I was screaming at the TV. Charlie could have HELD HIS BREATH and waited and then swim through the huge hole and then up to the surface.


I was waiting for this also. IMHO, even though Desmond's prediction came true, Charlie ended up dying unnecessarily because Charlie could have controlled his fate by swimming out.


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## mojomom

Does anyone else wonder if there really is a next season? Where (on Earth???) could they go from here? I kept wondering when they announced the "end" of the show if they were just setting us up for a surprise ending tonight.

How weird that it feels like an "it was all a dream" ending even though it was actually pretty straightforward--they were rescued, Jack's life sucked and Locke was right, they should have stayed on the island. I have to imagine that other survivor's lives had happier endings--not dying in childbirth, for instance.


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## Rob Helmerichs

flyers088 said:


> My guess is Michael. Out of left field but they made it seem like no one else got off the island but Kate and Jack.


Perhaps the reason for that is the flashbacks are now going to be flash-forwards, and they don't want to give away what happened (i.e., who survives) in the "present" on the island.

I don't think they're getting rescued now. I think the next three years are what happen between when the bad guys come is response to Jack's call, and when they get rescued at the end of the last season.


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## drew2k

markz said:


> Who's funeral? TELL ME!!!!


This is my biggest question about this episode. We know it wasn't friend, nor was it family, so ... who was it?

And how could Jack's father be alive in the future? "You go upstairs and get my father. If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."


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## Paperboy2003

scottykempf said:


> BUT why wouldn't the smoke monster make Walt look exactly as he did when he left the island instead of all growed up?


He was a heck of a lot taller and more 'mature' looking versus last year


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## scottykempf

Sirius Black said:


> Just think now they can tell the story of the events that happen on the island up to the start of the flashback tonight and the story of Jack (and others (?) ) getting back to the island for some unknown reason. Lots of story left to tell. It's going to be a long wait.


Oooh, I like it. Pull a Battlestar Galactica "jump forward 1 year" trick. LOL


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## mostman

It was Juliets funeral.

Not sure why nobody came - but it was Juliets.


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## Sirius Black

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> In the Flash Forward, the way Jack and Kate were talkin to each other, that they still don't know they are bro/sis?


They aren't. It's Claire who is related to Jack.


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## vikingguy

F'n incredible one of the best episodes in TV history. This is now the new standard of season finales. From start to the WTF finish it was perfect and people questioned the direction of lost. I need to put this on tape and send it to the heros people to show them how a finale should be. 

She had to be going home to james. I would say it was locke's funeral but damn it they he would die before leaving the island.


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## davezatz

MacThor said:


> The plasma flat screen on the wall of the hospital and then Jack's RAZR or KRZR or whatever phone he had gave the flash forwards away.


I kept thinking it must be current given the phone too. Looked like the Samsung Blade (Sprint) to me.

I have no idea what the hell is going on, but it sure feels good. The show definitely redeemed itself since that crazy asteroid episode. I don't like cliff hangars (I'm impatient), but man this blew Hereos away - tons of suspense and mystery and tension.


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## Paperboy2003

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> In the Flash Forward, the way Jack and Kate were talkin to each other, that they still don't know they are bro/sis?


Huh?


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## pcguru83

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> In the Flash Forward, the way Jack and Kate were talkin to each other, that they still don't know they are bro/sis?


They aren't brother and sister. Jack and _Claire_ are half-brother and half-sister.

EDIT: Errr, yeah, what Sirius said.


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## mostman

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> In the Flash Forward, the way Jack and Kate were talkin to each other, that they still don't know they are bro/sis?


Jack and Kate? I thought it was Jack and Claire.


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## philw1776

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except when Mikhail blew the window, he had already turned off the jammer. All he had to do was LEAVE THE ROOM before he closed the door.


I think that Charlie drowned and did not save himself because * he believed Desmond's vision that he MUST drown for his family to be saved. *

Whoops in the time I left the screen to edit, others posted this before me.


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## unicorngoddess

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> In the Flash Forward, the way Jack and Kate were talkin to each other, that they still don't know they are bro/sis?


Jack and Kate aren't brother and sister...that's Jack and Claire.


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## tirofiban

Why would Ben go to Jack and the Losties all by himself? Ben seemed a little out of character tonight.

I haven't seen a TV villain make this big of a mistake since 1979, when Baltar surrendered himself.


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## Paperboy2003

mostman said:


> It was Juliets funeral.
> 
> Not sure why nobody came - but it was Juliets.


That sorta makes sense, but her sister wouldve come and that seemed like a run down place for a funeral.

Also she seemed tall and that coffin seemed kinda small


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## davezatz

drew2k said:


> This is my biggest question about this episode. We know it wasn't friend, nor was it family, so ... who was it?


Did he say "neither" or "either" in regards to the friends/family question?


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

Ya, Even if it was Walt, that coffin was too small for him.


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## scottykempf

jenhudson said:


> - Yes, Charlie could have done any of those things to save himself, but he was already resigned to dying as seen in the vision, thinking he had to to save Claire.


But he didn't seem very resigned to his fate. He was happy, told Desmond to get the tanks, etc. They were going to get the H out of there.


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## mojomom

brermike said:


> Considering how knocked up on oxy he was, he wasn't probably in a right state of mind. Either that or he was being sarcastic about how drunk his dad always was. They made a point reminding us that Christain was dead in the episode so I think it was just a clever way to make us think it was a flashback instead of a flashforward. Very cool indeed!!!


What was the detail that told us Christian was dead? I was looking out for that and missed it.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

unicorngoddess said:


> Jack and Kate aren't brother and sister...that's Jack and Claire.


Oh I knew that..... duh


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## mostman

Maybe it was Molly from Heroes. Jack was sad because he needed the tracking system to find the island.


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## dianebrat

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> Ya, Even if it was Walt, that coffin was too small for him.


Aaron! (total WAG)


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## Paperboy2003

four pages already and it isn't even over in the Central time zone....going to be quite the long thread


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## tirofiban

Paperboy2003 said:


> I'm going to hate it when / if Ben was correct. Perhaps next season it will be Ben and the others along with Jacks crew battling the people from the ship...


I think you might be right.


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## bqmeister

It was Ben's Funeral.


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## sushikitten

davezatz said:


> Did he say "neither" or "either" in regards to the friends/family question?


I heard gaunt.


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## Sirius Black

tirofiban said:


> Why would Ben go to Jack and the Losties all by himself? Ben seemed a little out of character tonight.
> 
> I haven't seen a TV villain make this big of a mistake since 1979, when Baltar surrendered himself.


Desperation, is my guess.

It's funny but everything he said would appear to have been 100% correct. He's still a villian because he believe the three amigos back at the beach to have been killed on his order but everything else appears to have been the truth.

The question is, how did he know about Naomi's deception?


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## Paperboy2003

tirofiban said:


> I think you might be right.


It sorta makes sense because that would mean that it was probably Ben's funeral. Jack felt obligated to go b/c they became allies and battled the boat people together. Everyone else still hated Ben though due to what he did to them. Just a hunch....


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## markz

mostman said:


> It was Juliets funeral.
> 
> Not sure why nobody came - but it was Juliets.


Ok, this gets my vote for the following reasons.

1. Locke wouldn't have left the island
2. Ben's funeral wouldn't upset Jack (plus Jack planned to kill him as he left the island)
3. Sawyer is probably with Kate (plus Kate would have gone to his funeral and Jack wouldn't be that upset about his death)
4. Juliet's death would upset Jack and get the response from Kate "Why would I go to the funeral?"
5. No others left to attend her funeral
6. No Losties liked her enough to come to the funeral (if anyone else left the island)


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## Sirius Black

mojomom said:


> What was the detail that told us Christian was dead? I was looking out for that and missed it.


First or second episode of season one. Jack was in Austrailia to collect his father's body.


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## Paperboy2003

Once again, if the flash forward was reality, Kate would've been in jail.....


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## scottykempf

Sirius Black said:


> Desperation, is my guess.
> 
> It's funny but everything he said would appear to have been 100% correct. He's still a villian because he believe the three amigos back at the beach to have been killed on his order but everything else appears to have been the truth.
> 
> The question is, how did he know about Naomi's deception?


But Tom said "we followed orders, instead of killing them like we should have". Or it might have been the other guy. So they were following Bens order, which was to NOT shoot Sayid, Bernard, and Jin but to make Jack think that they did.


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## tirofiban

I know Charlie's death was sad and all..... but was anyone else sad to see Tom go?

What will this mean for Sawyer? He's been given a 2nd chance on the Island. First Locke's Father and now this.

And how about that Dharma bus? Way to go Hurley!!! :up:


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## mojomom

Sirius Black said:


> First or second episode of season one. Jack was in Austrailia to collect his father's body.


I meant, in tonight's flash forward Jack said that his father was alive, but was probably hallucinating. So did the head of surgery or anyone else give a clue that they knew that Christian was actually dead.


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## Sirius Black

scottykempf said:


> But Tom said "we followed orders, instead of killing them like we should have". Or it might have been the other guy. So they were following Bens order, which was to NOT shoot Sayid, Bernard, and Jin but to make Jack think that they did.


I thought he said that they should have followed orders and killed them.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

Paperboy2003 said:


> four pages already and it isn't even over in the Central time zone....going to be quite the long thread


Its been over for 20 minutes


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## philw1776

Sirius Black said:


> I thought he said that they should have followed orders and killed them.


He said goth


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## davezatz

Paperboy2003 said:


> Once again, if the flash forward was reality, Kate would've been in jail.....


Why, because all criminals/fugitives are brought to justice? She wasn't in jail much prior to the island...


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## mostman

Sirius Black said:


> First or second episode of season one. Jack was in Austrailia to collect his father's body.


He was asking - what was the evidence that he was dead in this episode? Not in general.

Things might be different than when they crashed.

I would not be surprised at all if they are in a sort of parallel universe kind of situation. The world they returned to is not the one they left.

Jacks father is alive. Kates old husband is alive. Kate may not be a fugitive. Etc etc.

-Mike


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## philw1776

davezatz said:


> Why, because all fugitives are criminals/fugitives to justice? She wasn't in jail much prior to the island...


Like YUH! Kate was wanted for murder and guilty as charged.


----------



## jschuman

My guesses:

- the flash forward is to the series finale - everything we see from now on is leading up that last scene with Jack and Kate
- after Jack makes the call, lots and lots of the Losties die; at the very least Jack, Kate and Ben get off the island
- the funeral is Ben's. Everything about Ben reminds him of the mistake he made in not listening to Ben's advice - so he's super depressed (thus, the bridge scene after he reads that Ben died). He goes to Ben's funeral for a sense of closure.


----------



## Sirius Black

mojomom said:


> I meant, in tonight's flash forward Jack said that his father was alive, but was probably hallucinating. So did the head of surgery or anyone else give a clue that they knew that Christian was actually dead.


I did pick up on the fact that the chief Doctor (what was his name?) never corrected Jack when he referred to his father. WAG would be alternate timelines. Perhaps leaving the island did something to the timeline of events that led everyone to the island?


----------



## GDG76

I thought Jack said "either" and I thought it was Rose's funeral (since she was sick when not on the island). I figured she was alone because Bernard didn't make it off.

Good episode. As I said in a previous thread, I think Naomi is either from Dharma or Widmore Industries.


----------



## philw1776

mostman said:


> He was asking - what was the evidence that he was dead in this episode? Not in general.
> 
> Things might be different than when they crashed.
> 
> I would not be surprised at all if they are in a sort of parallel universe kind of situation. The world they returned to is not the one they left.
> 
> Jacks father is alive. Kates old husband is alive. Etc etc.
> 
> -Mike


ah yes, the quantum uncertainty Hugh Everett paralllel universe, multiverse again


----------



## pcguru83

After now surviving the sonic fence, surviving the a spear to the chest, and possibly surviving a grenade explosion, I think we should seriously consider that there really is something special about Mikhail.

I think we've passed the point where his rapid healing can be attributed to the Island. It's gotta be something more than that...


----------



## davezatz

GDG76 said:


> I think Naomi is either from Dharma or Widmore Industries.


Yup, they've come to reclaim the island after Ben's coup.


----------



## philw1776

pcguru83 said:


> After now surviving the sonic fence, surviving the a spear to the chest, and possibly surviving a grenade explosion, I think we should seriously consider that there really is something special about Mikhail.


The anti-Locke?


----------



## mostman

philw1776 said:


> ah yes, the quantum uncertainty Hugh Everett paralllel universe, multiverse again


You can think they they wrote in all the references to Jacks father because they were trying to be clever and disguise the little secret...

I think its more than that. I think he was alive. The other MD didn't even flinch when Jack made that comment. Tell me what a normal person says, "Jack, your father, you know..."

Also - Jack said "Bring him down here" like he was at the hospital. No way thats just some drug induced slip up


----------



## scottykempf

Sirius Black said:


> I thought he said that they should have followed orders and killed them.


Other Guy: "It was an order Tom. We had to follow it."
Tom: "Ben doesnt know what the hell hes talking about. Hes lost it. I mean, look at what they did to us. Instead of putting three bullets into the damn sand, we should have put bullets into them."

Bens order was to NOT shoot them.


----------



## rlc1

OK, between Jack in the flash-forward implying his father is alive, and Naomi saying they found flight 815 with all their bodies in the ocean, I'm wondering if they really _are_ dead...or at least, they were supposed to be dead but somehow the island saved them. But now that they got off the island, maybe somehow the timeline got screwed up and everything is all changed, including Jack's father being alive? I know this half-baked theory is way out there, but so was this fantastic season finale. I mean, what is it that's got Jack so freaked out that he's become a drug addict? Man, I both love and hate this show...


----------



## DVDerek

mwhip said:


> I am only about 30 minutes through and am totally free on spoilers prior to this showing but my guess is Jack is having a flash forward but I am going to be sooooo wrong.


I too was all over this. I suspected it from the get-go and the clincher was the first time they showed his cell phone. Looked to be a Motorola K1 KRZR, which just came out 1 year ago or so.


----------



## CorgiMom28

davezatz said:


> I kept thinking it must be current given the phone too. Looked like the Samsung Blade (Sprint) to me.


It was definately a Motorola Krzr... You could see the "M" when he was calling (I'm guessing) Kate right before he stepped to the edge of the bridge.

Can someone confirm? I just heard on the news that Lost isn't coming back until February '08... Are they really going to keep us hanging for 9 months?!?


----------



## philw1776

If Naomi is NOT from Penny, which we now know to be true, her statements about finding everyone dead on FLT 815 must now be viewed as possible disinformation. She was and Penny's father is DHARMA.


----------



## Sirius Black

scottykempf said:


> Other Guy: "It was an order Tom. We had to follow it."
> Tom: "Ben doesnt know what the hell hes talking about. Hes lost it. I mean, look at what they did to us. Instead of putting three bullets into the damn sand, we should have put bullets into them."
> 
> Bens order was to NOT shoot them.


I stand corrected. More deception but, in this case, given the evidence at hand, it was to get Jack to do the right thing.



jschuman said:


> - the flash forward is to the series finale - everything we see from now on is leading up that last scene with Jack and Kate


I really hope that the flash-forwards aren't the series finale. That would be a bumber of a series finale. Way too depressing.


----------



## pcguru83

CorgiMom28 said:


> Can someone confirm? I just heard on the news that Lost isn't coming back until February '08... Are they really going to keep us hanging for 9 months?!?


Have you been under a rock for the last month? 

Yes, this is true. And the end date for LOST has been announced. There will be three more seasons, 16 episodes each (as opposed to 23-24).


----------



## bqmeister

Naomi's definitely working for Penny's dad.
When jack was on the phone I was guessing kate. Possibly claire, but most likely kate.


----------



## ufo4sale

Kate: This is not going to change 
Jack: I'm sick of lying, we made a mistake.


I think they change the time line somehow by leaving the island.


----------



## DVDerek

scottykempf said:


> No reason for Charlie to die. Either wait to type in the code until Desmond is standing right next to you with the air tanks, OR after Mikhail has blown the porthole out, wait and then swim through the hole to the surface. Even if the porthole was a tight fit, Charlie is kinda skinny. Way better than dying for no reason!!! OR instead of sealing off the room, let the water fill the station, which because it is a rather large area to fill, will give you and Desmond time to grab the tanks and THEN when the station is full of water, you two can swim to the surface at your leisure!!!


This was the big hole in the episode for me. Charlie went out like a punk, and that was stupid. There were countless better options, and at the very least you would think he would swim out the hole (or at least try). Sloppy, sloppy.

Also, how do they not check that the guy is dead? FFS! Have they NEVER seen a movie? I hate when writers take the easy way out like that...


----------



## CorgiMom28

scottykempf said:


> Other Guy: "It was an order Tom. We had to follow it."
> Tom: "Ben doesnt know what the hell hes talking about. Hes lost it. I mean, look at what they did to us. Instead of putting three bullets into the damn sand, we should have put bullets into them."
> 
> Bens order was to NOT shoot them.


I thought that Ben gave the order to kill them if Tom didn't hear from them in a minute (waiting for Jack to stop using the satellite phone). I may be off since so much happened in this episode!


----------



## Blackssr

TomK said:


> So they got off the island and now Jack wants to go back? Or was that an 'in the possible future' flash forward?


It could have been Desmond's vision.


----------



## CorgiMom28

pcguru83 said:


> Have you been under a rock for the last month?


Obviously!


----------



## lonwolf615

philw1776 said:


> Like YUH! Kate was wanted for murder and guilty as charged.


She was wanted for murder before the crash also, and had proven not that easy to catch. I think that was the point.


----------



## super dave

Sirius Black said:


> I really hope that the flash-forwards aren't the series finale. That would be a bumber of a series finale. Way too depressing.


What if they aren't flash forwards, that the show is actually a flash back and they are already off the island looking back?


----------



## jschuman

CorgiMom28 said:


> I thought that Ben gave the order to kill them if Tom didn't hear from them in a minute (waiting for Jack to stop using the satellite phone). I may be off since so much happened in this episode!


Yes, that is the order that Ben gave _when he was standing in front of Jack_. But obviously (from Tom's quotes later) Ben had given Tom _different_ instructions earlier - instructions that we did not see.


----------



## Blackssr

fluffie said:


> it has to be walt's funeral.


Ben's funeral?


----------



## mwhip

OK now I want to go read that spoiler thread and see if it was correct but I can't find it. Can anyone else?


----------



## betts4

I am jumping three pages...but the funeral....how about BEN?

edit-ah, smeeked.


----------



## CorgiMom28

Blackssr said:


> Ben's funeral?


I can't see Ben leaving the island, along with Locke and Rousseau


----------



## betts4

And best line 

Rose saying "Jack, if you say Live together Die alone, I'm going to punch you in your face"


----------



## betts4

CorgiMom28 said:


> It was definately a Motorola Krzr... You could see the "M" when he was calling (I'm guessing) Kate right before he stepped to the edge of the bridge.
> 
> Can someone confirm? I just heard on the news that Lost isn't coming back until February '08... Are they really going to keep us hanging for 9 months?!?


But its only been 90 days or so on the island, so even if its 5 years in our time, its not that long in their time.


----------



## jschuman

I think there are a couple of clues as to the funeral identity:
1) No one goes. No family or friends attend.
2) Jack says that he is neither friend nor family.
3) Kate's quote: "Why would I go to _his_ funeral?" So it must be a male and it is someone Kate does not like.

With the facts we know now those clues point to either Locke or Ben. (My guess is Ben) Of course, what happens next could totally change things up....


----------



## brermike

DVDerek said:


> This was the big hole in the episode for me. Charlie went out like a punk, and that was stupid. There were countless better options, and at the very least you would think he would swim out the hole (or at least try). Sloppy, sloppy.
> 
> Also, how do they not check that the guy is dead? FFS! Have they NEVER seen a movie? I hate when writers take the easy way out like that...


Charlie accepted his destiny. He let Desmond off the hook for constantly trying to save him. He knew the only way that could happen was for him to die. When he made the choice to swim down initially he had accepted his fate. He knew from Desmond's vision that he was supposed to die. When he thought they were going to get out, he thought he had overcome it, but then he got the transmission and knew that Clarie and Aron were in trouble (since Naomi lied wasn't sent by Penny). I think he knew he needed to fulfull Desmond's prophecy in order to get them off the island. That's how I read the scene at least.


----------



## MitchO

I don't think its any of those people's funerals. Quite frankly, it was in a poor neighborhood in L.A. Look at the environment. Ben wouldn't be in L.A., Juliet wouldn't be there OR in that neighborhood. I'm waiting for someone to screenshot the time he looks at the paper before entering the funeral, you may be able to see something. My vote is the child of someone who gets pregnant on the island, perhaps even Kate's child, considering the exchange between them about "I thought you'd want to be there". Kate and Sawyer are also clearly on the run, that's why it was such a big deal to call her, so maybe she couldn't show up.


----------



## davezatz

jschuman said:


> With the facts we know now those clues point to either Locke or Ben. (My guess is Ben)


It's Michael.


----------



## Sheldon469

HELP!  

My Tivo did not start recording the final lost episode until minute 59 of the 120 minutes....

Anyone care to share their tivo file with me so that I could get the full effect of the season finale.


Desperately,
Thanks.


----------



## ufo4sale

jschuman said:


> I think there are a couple of clues as to the funeral identity:
> 1) No one goes. No family or friends attend.
> 2) Jack says that he is neither friend nor family.
> 3) Kate's quote: "Why would I go to _his_ funeral?" So it must be a male and it is someone Kate does not like.
> 
> With the facts we know now those clues point to either Locke or Ben. (My guess is Ben) Of course, what happens next could totally change things up....


Kate said, "Why would I go to THE funeral" not his funeral.


----------



## ahartman

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/

High-res screencaps of the newspaper clipping. Not enough detail to tell who, but the clipping refers to a man.


----------



## betts4

Why were the Others going to the "temple"?


----------



## jschuman

ufo4sale said:


> Kate said, "Why would i go to THE funeral" not his funeral.


Ah. Ok. I (obviously) mis-remembered that. Thanks for the correction.


----------



## JMikeD

You're all wrong. It's Jacob's funeral.


----------



## Skittles

Mavenelle said:


> Holy Crap.
> 
> That was exhausting.


(A) Glad you're here.

(B) Thanks for making me stick it out this season. I seriously owe you a drink the next time I see you.

(C) You in for next season? 

OK, here's my thinking on this.

- The coffin may be Ben's. After all, he's a short guy. And the viewing had no one show up... and Ben is one of the few people in our collective knowledge that has no real family/friend connections with anyone.

- Locke didn't see Walt. Locke saw an image sent to him by Jacob. Jacob *is* the island. Like a living, breathing entity that encompasses everything.

- Locke is a Chosen One on the island. Jacob/The Island has chosen Locke as its defender. That's why the black smoke didn't harm Locke. He was defended by Jacob/The Island.

- How far ahead is the flash forward? Presumably, it's at least 3 or 4 months because they mention that Jack has returned to work, and because Jack mentions that he's been flying back and forth for a while. But at the same time, it's long enough that people recognize him as the hero from the car crash but make no mention that he's one of the long lost survivors of Flight 815.

- LOVED seeing the Oceanic stubs on Jack's desk in his apartment. That was my big clue that the whole thing was a flash forward.

- The blonde woman is Annie.

- Ben is not lying. Naomi represents another faction, coming on the island to harvest its healing power and/or destroy it. Ben and the rest of The Others have only one mission: Defend the island. Hence, the reason why all signals outbound were jammed (to prevent anyone from giving away their position), and why Ben makes the comment about "Everything I did, I did for the island" (because he's trying to save it, but he's a Fallen One that the island rejected). In fact, I think his comment on how The Others are Good Guys really is true. The Planies are just caught up in the middle of this.

SO much to think about. Gonna need to rewatch this. Gads, it's gonna be a long 7 months until the show comes back.


----------



## markz

mwhip said:


> OK now I want to go read that spoiler thread and see if it was correct but I can't find it. Can anyone else?


http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/

And they were right on!


----------



## TAsunder

I think it was ben's funeral. Almost everyone made it off the island. At the least claire and the baby, since desmond saw that. The reason no one attended his funeral is because he is viewed as a villan by history. He wanted to protect the island from being discovered and keep it to himself, viewing it as a magical paradise of sorts. Treasure of the Sierra Madra style. But the island yielded great scientific advances eventually, for the corporation sent by naomi which probably hoarded the wealth.

Jack's life was crap before, probably crap again after returning. He is the only person who sympathizes with ben who is left alive, since his life had meaning on the island and the world was a simpler place with predefined "good" and "evil" sides.

The last dozen or so episodes redeemed Lost in my eyes, although I still will never like it as much as I once did.


----------



## Skittles

Oh, and my guess:

They really do make it off the island in Season 4. The flash forward we see takes place some time in season 4. Then they go back to the island to save it.


----------



## scottykempf

betts4 said:


> Why were the Others going to the "temple"?


Maybe because its the Sabbath? LOL


----------



## mwhip

Skittles said:


> Oh, and my guess:
> 
> They really do make it off the island in Season 4. The flash forward we see takes place some time in season 4. Then they go back to the island to save it.


Do we share a brain? 

I was thinking the exact same thing as I turned off the TV and sat and thought. Season 4 is them battling Naomi's people to get off the island probably teaming up with the others and losing. Season 5 will be getting back to the island and season 6 will be battle for the island.


----------



## betts4




----------



## mwhip

markz said:


> http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/
> 
> And they were right on!


thanks. Is that what was posted in that lost spoiler thread? I could not bring myself to look in it but now I want to.


----------



## betts4

Skittles said:


> Oh, and my guess:
> 
> They really do make it off the island in Season 4. The flash forward we see takes place some time in season 4. Then they go back to the island to save it.


I like that!


----------



## mwhip

And the HD screenshots you can clearly see the paper says "a man was found..." but the rest is unreadable.


----------



## bdlucas

Sayid the chiropractor! Whoa!  

Hurley and his damn bus again.  :up:


----------



## Skittles

mwhip said:


> And the HD screenshots you can clearly see the paper says "a man was found..." but the rest is unreadable.


Not entirely. There's a mention of New York in there.

New York is the first two words in the second line after the "Los Angeles" header.

It looks like the last two words of the first paragraph are "Grand Avenue".


----------



## nrrhgreg

Looks like the obit says:

"The body of J**********nth*** of New York was found shortly after 4 a.m. in the **** of Grand Avenue.


----------



## Todd

Wow! What a stunningly good 2 hours of TV. :up:


----------



## jkeegan

Ok..

Cool episode. Nowhere near the oh-my-god levels as the previous two cliffhangers (end of season 1 and end of 2), but those were tough to top.

When we first saw Jack, I thought "we're _starting out_ in a flashback?" and was suspicious.. The beard was another big hint.. I called it to my wife early in the first flight sequence, but then changed my mind, and even forget that possibility.. (I'm glad I did, it let me enjoy the episode without focusing on it).

For a short while during that flight, I thought maybe we were watching an alternate timeline.. I expected him to say something similar to "this isn't that strong a drink", and hear a slightly different response from this different stewardess.. Then I expected the plane to crash into the ocean, intact, and sink to the bottom of the ocean.

..but I only thought that for a second.

LOVED Charlie's confidence knowing his fate.. Answering her "So what's going to happen to you then?" with "I'll die" (or whatever he said) was great.

This didn't really count as much of a sacrifice for Desmond, did it? Sure, he told Charlie about it and that he had to die this time, but then he was gonna get the SCUBA gear ready, etc.. At the last moment he was trying to break the window with a fire extinguisher, etc.

Awesome, Hurley. Awesome.



MacThor said:


> The plasma flat screen on the wall of the hospital and then Jack's RAZR or KRZR or whatever phone he had gave the flash forwards away. Yes, I know they had plasmas prior to Fall of 2004 but their prices hadn't quite dropped to the point where hospitals would be putting them up willy-nilly.


Noticed it too (then again I can't see any phones in 24 etc without calling out every one.. here's a current picture of my desk at work):

(click on the picture to see a larger version)



He had a Motorola KRZR.. If it was a Sprint phone it was the V3m, released around November of 2006 - not sure if it was from another carrier.



tirofiban said:


> I know Charlie's death was sad and all..... but was anyone else sad to see Tom go?


Yeah I definitely wasn't happy about that.

I WAS happy though that Jack let the minute tick by.. The show would have been so damned predictable/average/cookie-cutter if he'd just been upset and given him the phone.



super dave said:


> What if they aren't flash forwards, that the show is actually a flash back and they are already off the island looking back?


Thought that too, while reading the thread.. I wanna go back now and look for clues of that.

I'm pretty prepared for us to start next season at the very beginning, and loop through again, this time with people doing different things.. Desmond's been around many times - maybe everyone else has too - and he's the only one that knows he's repeating it (ala 12:01).

One thing I found particularly interesting at the end was that Jack was saying to Kate that they had to go back.. Did he just mean "to the island" (why he was flying around all the time), or did he have some reason to think he _could_ "go back" (to change his decision)?

Oh yeah - another scene that makes more sense now.. the stewardess seemed to barely tolerate Jack - that struck me as odd at the time because they're always supposed to be so cheerful etc.. But if Jack's flying around as much as he said (on Oceanic), they've gotta recognize him as a regular now, and he's probably grown tiresome being drunk in each flight. 

Ok, time for some Halo3.. Then maybe later or tomorrow a rewatch.


----------



## astrohip

If you slo-mo in HD the newspaper clipping, it looks like the name starts with "J". John Locke would certainly fit "neither friend nor family", based on what we know so far.
_
darn...smeeked in between when I hit reply & post. This thread is moving waaay too quick  _


----------



## betts4

Now I also loved that the code to unjam the signal was a 'song'. Pretty fitting for a musician. Now were the other numbers a sequence from a song?


----------



## MacThor

Who has a keypad that goes to number 16? Dharma does. How would Charlie know how to type in the tones to match the song? It's not like it was a standard touch-tone keypad.

I was also disappointed that Sawyer killed Tom. However, it's nice closure of his "this ain't over, Zeke" comment from the "This is _our_ island" showdown in Season 2.

Juliette kissing Jack...hmm. Guess she really is "one of us."

So is Charlie the only main (non-Other) character to die since the producers promised "lots of death, including major characters?"

Oh, and...............not purgatory.


----------



## mqpickles

OMG, that was great! The promise of a game-changer was definitely delivered. I was totally surprised by the flash-forward ending, although I did notice the phone and think "I wonder when that phone would have been made."

Did it sound to anyone else like "Walt's" voice was computerized? (Quote marks because I agree that it was a vision, not really Walt.)

Greta was in Windfall last year (short-lived NBC series w/ Luke Perry about a group of friends who win the lottery).
Bonnie reminded me of a blond Anna-Lucia. Quick to violence!

I didn't mind Charlie shutting the door from the inside, but before that when they noticed the scuba equipment, I thought he should put on that gear *before *entering the code.

Agree that Kate's "he" was Sawyer, and the only people I thought of for the funeral were Ben or Locke. Juliet makes sense too, but only if her sister and nephew are dead by then.

So, if this is really a flash-forward and not an alternative-forward, then all the people hoping Jack will get killed soon are going to be disappointed.

Ever since Ben described his group as the good guys, I've been expecting that to eventually be true in some way. Still doesn't make sense, but it would be fabulous writing if it does make sense by the end.

Possible that Kate and Sawyer get pardoned after rescue, especially if they do some great acts of heroism. Kate did kill someone in cold blood, but he was a miserable excuse for a human being.


----------



## Philosofy

Next season, I'd love to see Mikail swimming to the surface, trailing blood from the wound, get attacked by the Dharma shark.


----------



## mqpickles

MacThor said:


> I was also disappointed that Sawyer killed Tom. However, it's nice closure of his "this ain't over, Zeke" comment from the "This is _our_ island" showdown in Season 2.


I will miss Tom, but I was glad Sawyer killed him. It was realistic, and sensible.

On another note, loved the mother and child reunion, especially Ben's matter-of-fact introduction.


----------



## mqpickles

MacThor said:


> So is Charlie the only main (non-Other) character to die since the producers promised "lots of death, including major characters?"


 Depends on whether your definition of main would include Locke's dad. If not (and I wouldn't call him a main character), then yes, Charlie is the only one.

OTOH, the number 5 was thrown around, and the body count was a lot higher than that.

Oh, and I was a little concerned when Hurley was wearing a red shirt.


----------



## peitsche

I knew I had seen Greta before...she was in Boomtown...


----------



## wooh

Just gotta say, it's gonna be a looooong wait for February...


----------



## wprager

mostman said:


> It was Juliets funeral.
> 
> Not sure why nobody came - but it was Juliets.


Pretty sure I'm smeeking, but the paper said "man" among the few words I could make out; it was not Juliet. My first reaction was "Ben". Ultimately Ben was right and Jack was wrong, and having it brought up again like that made Jack suicidal (the drugs and alcohol didn't hurt either). I think in the end very few people got off the Island and the rest did not survive. This is why Jack wants to go back because there must be another way.

ETA: Yup, I was right about the smeek. Just read jschuman's post.


----------



## Philly Bill

markz said:


> I don't think Locke would have left the island. Locke & Rousso neither one want to leave.
> 
> *I think "he" that was waiting for Kate is Sawyer. And I think the funeral was Ben's.*


Ding Ding Ding... we have a winner! :up:


----------



## hefe

wprager said:


> Pretty sure I'm smeeking, but the paper said "man" among the few words I could make out; it was not Juliet.


I'm not sure what could be determined from the presence of the word 'man' in the article.


----------



## TheGreyOwl

Philly Bill said:


> Ding Ding Ding... we have a winner! :up:


But I don't think Ben would want to leave the island. I think the funeral was for Michael, because Jack expected that Kate might have wanted to go, although she didn't. I don't know why he'd even think she'd want to go to Ben's funeral.


----------



## wprager

hefe said:


> I'm not sure what could be determined from the presence of the word 'man' in the article.


Umm, that it wasn't Juliet?


----------



## Philly Bill

mostman said:


> It was Juliets funeral.
> 
> Not sure why nobody came - but it was Juliets.


Hmmm. I hadn't considered this. I'm changing my guess from Ben's to Julliets.


----------



## wprager

TheGreyOwl said:


> But I don't think Ben would want to leave the island. I think the funeral was for Michael, because Jack expected that Kate might have wanted to go, although she didn't. I don't know why he'd even think she'd want to go to Ben's funeral.


Didn't want to, but had no choice.

I *really* don't get why people think it was Michael's funeral.


----------



## TheGreyOwl

Skittles said:


> (- How far ahead is the flash forward? Presumably, it's at least 3 or 4 months because they mention that Jack has returned to work, and because Jack mentions that he's been flying back and forth for a while. But at the same time, it's long enough that people recognize him as the hero from the car crash but make no mention that he's one of the long lost survivors of Flight 815.


Jack did tell Kate that he was tired of lying all the time. Perhaps nobody knows they were the survivors of flight 815? If everyone else found the plane and dead bodies (according to Naomi), maybe the survivors from the island had a good reason to cover up who they really were? Not sure what that would be, though.


----------



## hefe

wprager said:


> Umm, that it wasn't Juliet?


How does it say that when you don't know the context, only that the word is there. What if the article said "The body of Juliet so-and-so was found shortly after 4 PM...yadda yadda...a man was held for questioning.... blah blah blah."

The word without context says nothing.

Edit: OK, I take that back...the first pic I looked at, you couldn't read the headline. I see another where you can.


----------



## SocratesJohnson

I think the Funeral was Locke's. As for the short coffin, at some point the Jacob punishes Locke for not protecting the island by physically taking his legs. Would explain why he would leave the island. He ends up committing suicide hence Jack's feelings of guilt for not listening to him. ehhh..... it's getting late


----------



## hefe

SocratesJohnson said:


> I think the Funeral was Locke's. As for the short coffin, at some point the Jacob punishes Locke for not protecting the island by physically taking his legs. Would explain why he would leave the island. He ends up committing suicide hence Jack's feelings of guilt for not listening to him. ehhh..... it's getting late


Yeah, that's the ticket. 

I have no idea who it is, but I guess the words you can see say "the body of...[somebody] of New York was found..."

So who is from New York?


----------



## skinnyjm

My guess is the funeral is for someone we haven't met yet.
It looks like the name in the newspaper clipping is J* *antham.


----------



## getreal

hefe said:


> I'm not sure what could be determined from the presence of the word 'man' in the article.


Another possibility: a strategic fold in the paper blocked out the "wo-" and only showed "-man", so it could have said "woman" in the article.


----------



## dagojr

i thought to myself... they didn't make black razor's back in 04.


----------



## flyersfan

From the clipping, it looks like J*o*...... antham. It we're going with the "world thinks the survivors are dead so some of them assumed new identities" theory, perhaps it's John Locke but with a different surname. Keeping your first name when changing names seems reasonable.

So much for my original thought that it was Ben.


----------



## hefe

flyersfan said:


> From the clipping, it looks like J*o*...... antham. It we're going with the "world thinks the survivors are dead so some of them assumed new identities" theory, perhaps it's John Locke but with a different surname. Keeping your first name when changing names seems reasonable.
> 
> So much for my original thought that it was Ben.


Or James (Sawyer), or Jin, or Jack himself...or dare I say... Jacob?


----------



## flyersfan

It's definitely not an '*a*' in that font. It can't be an '*e*' in that font either.


----------



## Peter000

TheGreyOwl said:


> Jack did tell Kate that he was tired of lying all the time. Perhaps nobody knows they were the survivors of flight 815? If everyone else found the plane and dead bodies (according to Naomi), maybe the survivors from the island had a good reason to cover up who they really were? Not sure what that would be, though.


I was wondering about the "lie" like as well. But, there were all sorts of references to Jack being a hero (twice over!), and he referenced a gold pass for Oceanic airlines, so I really think that people know they are survivors of 815, and regard Jack as a hero for saving everyone.


----------



## Peter000

hefe said:


> Or James (Sawyer), or Jin, or Jack himself...or dare I say... Jacob?


I think the name is actually "Goth Gaunt."


----------



## FlugPoP

The funeral could be for a character that hasn't been introduced yet...
The word I make out on the 1st line is 

--ntham

IS there anyone that has that a last name that would end in that? I thnink its a last name not a first.


----------



## JYoung

pcguru83 said:


> After now surviving the sonic fence, surviving the a spear to the chest, and possibly surviving a grenade explosion, I think we should seriously consider that there really is something special about Mikhail.
> 
> I think we've passed the point where his rapid healing can be attributed to the Island. It's gotta be something more than that...


Well, he was wearing a vest but yeah, stupid of the Brit Boys not to check closer.



hefe said:


> Yeah, that's the ticket.
> 
> I have no idea who it is, but I guess the words you can see say "the body of...[somebody] of New York was found..."
> 
> So who is from New York?


Michael was from New York.
And Kate wouldn't go to his funeral.

And I kind of laughed with the way Hurley came with the Bus which quickly turned to chills.

With the way Sawyer shot Tom, he's going down a very dark path and may not turn around.

I called it a flash-forward at the beginning but I have to admit that I wavered a bit in the middle there.

I have no idea who Naomi's people are but I certainly understand why Jack didn't believe Ben. After all, why should he?

Things are going to get interesting next year....


----------



## Uncle Briggs

I just finished watching the show. I haven't read any of the posts yet, But during one of Jack's scenes with the beard I said to myself "this could be in the future". I don't know what made me think that.


----------



## Chandler Mike

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> I think for this episode, I could do without the flashbacks.


Boy, this had to be the foot-in-the-mouth statement of the season


----------



## jerrad707

Uncle Briggs said:


> I just finished watching the show. I haven't read any of the posts yet, But during one of Jack's scenes with the beard I said to myself "this could be in the future". I don't know what made me think that.


EVERYONE, he might be on to something here!


----------



## laststarfighter

Anyone else lol when Jack was jaywalking across the street to the funeral parlour as a police car passes by? How did the directer not catch that?  

And I think Jack's father is somehow alive in the future. Maybe another Desmond type timeline. It doesn't seem to make sense that the writers of the show would make Jack reference his father as if he was alive and expect the audience to think "oh, yeah, that kind of behavior is exactly like a man hooked on oxycodone would act." I just don't think the writers would expect the general audience to make that kind of connection.


Note to Heroes: This is why you have an effing TWO HOUR finale instead of trying to wrap up a whole season in 30 minutes after wasting the first 30 minutes of your one hour finale.


----------



## smak

Man, i was so proud of myself finding the continuity error of Jack having a KRZR that I didn't even think that it was the future.

I thought something was weird, because I couldn't figure out who the funeral would be for, if this was pre dad dying, pre flight to Australia. That got me thinking something was going on there, but i didn't put it together.

Not that anybody should believe Ben, but after saying Jack needed to give him the phone for everybody's safety, and then being beaten up, tied up, and dragged around, and to still harp about the phone, somebody could have thought something might be truthful there.

Great episode overall, superbly paced.

-smak-


----------



## getbak

getreal said:


> Another possibility: a strategic fold in the paper blocked out the "wo-" and only showed "-man", so it could have said "woman" in the article.


The word "Man" is the first thing in the headline and it's capitalized. There's definitely no "Wo" in front of it.

That is the only thing I can say I am sure about at this point.


----------



## bpurcell

First, my guess after the first scene of Jack in the plane with the long beard was that this was a flash forward. I also couldn't think of a time frame between his divorce and his father's death where he could be hooked on Oxycontin and Suicidal. His talking about his dad through me off in the middle, but then the scene of him with the maps confirmed my original belief.

Second, Lost Easter Eggs has a great high quality picture of the news article. It appears the last name is "Lantham".


----------



## Roadblock

Seems clear that we don't get to know who the dead guy was until at least next season. I didn't like Charlie's exit either, it seemed like bad writing. This was a great episode but rather unsatisfying for a season finale.

If Ben was in fact telling the truth and Naomi is working for 'the bad guys', he is completely responsible for Jack going ahead with the phone call. Locke also blew it by not explaining any of what he knows to Jack. This seems to be an epidemic with the Lost characters. Don't explain the useful information you have to anyone else. Just tell them what to do instead. That always works wonders.


----------



## wmcbrine

Paperboy2003 said:


> That sorta makes sense, but her sister wouldve come and that seemed like a run down place for a funeral.


Her sister didn't come because she was in the hospital. The woman from the bridge.

Just a guess... it didn't occur to me until I read your message.


----------



## JETarpon

Hoffs/Drawler funeral parlor.

Hoffs/Drawler = flash forward


----------



## manduck

My recording ended just after Locke woke up. It looks like I missed just about everything!


----------



## wprager

Uncle Briggs said:


> I just finished watching the show. I haven't read any of the posts yet, But during one of Jack's scenes with the beard I said to myself "this could be in the future". I don't know what made me think that.


They made him up to look older. It was subtle, and it was masked a little by the beard, but he was definitely older.


----------



## wprager

jerrad707 said:


> EVERYONE, he might be on to something here!


He said he just finished watching. So he *knows* it was a flash-forward. The only thing he was wondering about was what made him clue-in on it from the first scene.


----------



## cwoody222

jschuman said:


> I think there are a couple of clues as to the funeral identity:
> 1) No one goes. No family or friends attend.
> 2) Jack says that he is neither friend nor family.
> 3) Kate's quote: "Why would I go to _his_ funeral?" So it must be a male and it is someone Kate does not like.
> 
> With the facts we know now those clues point to either Locke or Ben. (My guess is Ben) Of course, what happens next could totally change things up....


But it was someone that Jack thought Kate MAY have gone to this funeral.

I immediately thought Sawyer.

We've got 16*3 episodes for things to get worse between the two of them... Obviously, lots changes in that time!


----------



## markz

mwhip said:


> thanks. Is that what was posted in that lost spoiler thread? I could not bring myself to look in it but now I want to.


I can't find the post on that site that told everything, but yes, that is what was posted, if I recall correctly.

Even though I had read it, I still enjoyed the heck out of the episode!



mqpickles said:


> OMG, that was great! The promise of a game-changer was definitely delivered. I was totally surprised by the flash-forward ending, although I did notice the phone and think "I wonder when that phone would have been made."
> 
> Did it sound to anyone else like "Walt's" voice was computerized? (Quote marks because I agree that it was a vision, not really Walt.)
> 
> <snip>


I too thought his voice was mechanized. I wonder if it is because the actors voice has changed so much that they were trying to make him sound younger. Or if it was to stress that he was not really there but was a vision.


----------



## wprager

Funeral Parlor name is "Hoffs Drawlar" a name begging to be anagramed:

Flash Forward

How brutally direct!

ETA: crap, another smeek


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

wprager said:


> They made him up to look older. It was subtle, and it was masked a little by the beard, but he was definitely older.


He was also wearing a fat suit, which was especially noticable when they cut back to Skinny Jack on the island.


----------



## Squeak

How is Jack able to fly Oceanic Air? The website they put up after season 1 says they shut down after the crash of Flight 815:

http://oceanic-air.com/



> We regret to announce that Oceanic Airlines has ceased all operations effective immediately.
> 
> Michael Orteig, President of Oceanic Airlines, released this statement: "After 25 years of service, we are forced to close our doors. Due to financial difficulties in the wake of the Flight 815 tragedy, we are no longer able to sustain service. We are deeply sorry that we can no longer serve our loyal customers, and apologize for any inconvenience our decision will cause."
> 
> Passengers of Oceanic Airlines are encouraged to contact their travel agent or one of Oceanic's airline partners to make alternate travel arrangements.


----------



## mask2343

Charlie's Death:
Charlie HAD to lock the door from the inside so as not to let the entire station flood. If he would have gone outside, the station would have flooded and Desmond would have also died. Charlie was a hero. Not sure why he didn't try to swim out of the hole though.

Mikhail:
Obviously Mikhail is of the same origin as the other "Other" guy who seems to not age (or die?) Still question how they all came to follow Ben.

Funeral:
I'm on the side that it is Ben's funeral. The fact that it was in what looked like a Black neighborhood made me initially think Rose, Michael, or Walt. But because nobody showed and Kate seemed disgusted, I say it's Ben's.

Jack's Dad:
Confused. Very confused. 

Tanker:
Was waiting for the helicoptors to come and act like they were saving them. I guess that is Season 4.

Flashbacks:
I'm guessing that next season, the "everything changes" will mean that we will be seeing Flash Forwards instead of Flashbacks. Or Flashbacks from the present (edit: after they were saved).

Kate:
Married to Sawyer. Probably had a child that was conceived on the island, thus was "forced" to be with Sawyer and not Jack.

Best Line:
"That's for taking the kid off the boat!"

Best...show...on....television. If they end it well....perhaps EVER.


----------



## betts4

Roadblock said:


> If Ben was in fact telling the truth and Naomi is working for 'the bad guys', he is completely responsible for Jack going ahead with the phone call.


Good point!

So, with Ben knowing Jack....why did he become completely honest with Jack in those five minutes. Why did he say the stuff about the 'bad guys' cometh and expect Jack to believe him. I would think, if he DIDN"t want them on the island, he would have manipulated Jack better - he must have known that Jack would make the call.

Maybe he DID want them to land? to come? Are we all being manipulated by Ben and how he presented it to us/jack?

Charlie? Why didn't charlie swim out the open hole? Why didn't he open the door and flood the station, grab scuba gear and get out?

But more importantly.....why did the people that designed the station put a frigging window in a highly sensitive room?

Why did Tom and co FAKE Sayids and Bernards and Jins shootings? What code did Ben say to them to fake it. He had been saying kill the men all along.

Hurley gets gold stars!!!


----------



## markz

Forgive if I am smeeking, but I haven't seen it mentioned after reading the whole thread...


When Jack's ex-wife visits him in the hospital and then turns to walk away, she appeared to be pregnant. I believe she even had her hand on her belly like pregnant women sometimes do. Did anyone else see that?


----------



## rlc1

In the second paragraph of the obituary that Jack is reading, it says something about "The Tower", and it's capitalized just like I typed it. The words before that are not too clear but I think it says "man at The Tower". In the same sentence I can also read the words "loud" and "a beam in the", but that's all I can make out.

I wonder what "The Tower" could be? Something on the island? Something in Los Angeles?


----------



## unicorngoddess

mostman said:


> You can think they they wrote in all the references to Jacks father because they were trying to be clever and disguise the little secret...
> 
> I think its more than that. I think he was alive. The other MD didn't even flinch when Jack made that comment. Tell me what a normal person says, "Jack, your father, you know..."
> 
> Also - Jack said "Bring him down here" like he was at the hospital. No way thats just some drug induced slip up


When he mentions to the other doctor about "Bring my father down here" the doctor gives him a sympathetic look and Jack snaps "Don't look at me like that!" I took that to mean the doctor looked at him that way because he knew he was dead and Jack snapped because he knew the other doctor that he had gone crazy.

Also when the pharmasist tried to call to confirm Dr. Shephard's prescription Jack got real mad and told her not to bother...because he knew his dad is no longer there.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

mask2343 said:


> Charlie's Death:
> Charlie HAD to lock the door from the inside so as not to let the entire station flood. If he would have gone outside, the station would have flooded and Desmond would have also died.


No, there was a spinny-closer-thingie on the outside.


markz said:


> When Jack's ex-wife visits him in the hospital and then turns to walk away, she appeared to be pregnant. I believe she even had her hand on her belly like pregnant women sometimes do. Did anyone else see that?


Appears to be?!? Good grief, she was about to pop!


----------



## danplaysbass

markz said:


> Forgive if I am smeeking, but I haven't seen it mentioned after reading the whole thread...
> 
> When Jack's ex-wife visits him in the hospital and then turns to walk away, she appeared to be pregnant. I believe she even had her hand on her belly like pregnant women sometimes do. Did anyone else see that?


The actress, Julie Bowen, was pregnant. They even wrote it in to her other show Boston Legal....


----------



## danplaysbass

Good Lord!! I was shocked to come here at 7 am the day after and find 8 pages of posts!! This was a stellar episode!!

I was laughing when Hurley came with the truck. It was so typical for him. I've been feeling bad for him lately especially since Charlie and sawyer both rejected him because of his size/shape. He redeemed himself!!

I loved the Sayid/Jack Bauer moment when he snapped that guy's neck and they we get Locke killing Naomi with a knife to the back!! Lots of action!!!

Did anyone else think it took forever for whoever to answer the sat phone?


----------



## Mavenelle

Skittles said:


> (A) Glad you're here.
> 
> (B) Thanks for making me stick it out this season. I seriously owe you a drink the next time I see you.
> 
> (C) You in for next season?


(A) Glad to be here.

(B) You're welcome. Let's be thematic and make it a fruity, island-y drink.

(C) Hells. Yeah. 

In other news, I'm gonna Smeek (maybe) and say that I think it's Sawyer's coffin.

Tom suggested that last night and it's my pick for the most plausible.

Kate and Sawyer DON'T end up together... the "he" she has to get back to is someone else. But Jack assumes she would still care about Sawyer (enough to pay respects, at least) but she's moved on and is trying not to look back. No one came to the funeral because his parents are gone and he has no siblings. Being a drifter-type, he's not one to have friends.

Was the coffin really that small? Who's re-watched it already? I didn't think it looked that much smaller than a standard coffin.



{sigh}

It's gonna be a looooooooong hiatus.


----------



## TheDewAddict

What if Naomi's people are actually Dharma? We know the signal beacon that the Others had used to guide their sub to the island is no longer working, so presumably Dharma can't locate the island to make their food drops anymore. Perhaps this has clued them in to something not being right on the island, and they're trying to find it again? We know Ben's people don't like Dharma, so this would be why Ben thinks that letting Naomi's people know where they are will not be a good thing.


----------



## rlc1

TheDewAddict said:


> What if Naomi's people are actually Dharma? We know the signal beacon that the Others had used to guide their sub to the island is no longer working, so presumably Dharma can't locate the island to make their food drops anymore. Perhaps this has clued them in to something not being right on the island, and they're trying to find it again? We know Ben's people don't like Dharma, so this would be why Ben thinks that letting Naomi's people know where they are will not be a good thing.


I think this is a good theory. It ties in with Ben being part of killing all the Dharma people from before. I think he decided that the island was somehow special and didn't like what the Dharma people came there to do (whatever that was).


----------



## Jeeters

I also think the funeral was Ben's. It was not a large coffin at all; not child size, but definitely not 'normal' sized. No way it would fit Locke who many have suggested. Jack also said he was neither friend nor family. I don't see why he'd say that he wasn't a friend of Locke (even with their differences) or Walt or any of the other plane survivors.

I also don't think he was committing suicide just because of Ben's death. I bet something happened that maybe caused lots of deaths on the island - perhaps very much related to Ben's warning of what will happen if they allow Naomi to make her call. Jack is upset that he didn't listen to Ben; that he failed everybody; was unable to make things right for everybody.

I'm betting Ben got off (or is forced off) the island, along with Jack and Kate and who knows who else. And then his tumor retured and he died.


I may be smeeking, but i thought it was odd that Naomi acted on the up-and-up all the way to the end. When she first got the signal, she even had to run up to Claire and tell her as if she was honestly happy for all of them. I won't be suprised if perhaps Naomi (and maybe even the guy on the other end of the radio) was led to believe that she's on a rescue mission when she was really just being used to locate them by the 'bad' that Ben talked of.


----------



## rlc1

Jeeters said:


> I may be smeeking, but i thought it was odd that Naomi acted on the up-and-up all the way to the end. When she first got the signal, she even had to run up to Claire and tell her as if she was honestly happy for all of them. I won't be suprised if perhaps Naomi (and maybe even the guy on the other end of the radio) was led to believe that she's on a rescue mission when she was really just being used to locate them by the 'bad' that Ben talked of.


My take on this is that Naomi's people aren't really "bad" except in Ben's eyes, and won't try to kill people on the island. I like the theory proposed just above, that Naomi's people are from the Dharma project, and they're trying to re-locate the island. Ben doesn't like whatever they're doing, perhaps he thinks they're exploiting the island in some way, and so he tells Jack another lie (that the "rescuers" will kill everyone) just in order to keep them off the island.

What I can't fit into all this is why the Looking Glass station would receive a communication from Penny Whitmore (Desmond's girlfriend) once Charlie pushed the button.....I know she is looking for Desmond, but....I'm just lost. Pun intended.


----------



## mask2343

TheDewAddict said:


> What if Naomi's people are actually Dharma? We know the signal beacon that the Others had used to guide their sub to the island is no longer working, so presumably Dharma can't locate the island to make their food drops anymore. Perhaps this has clued them in to something not being right on the island, and they're trying to find it again? We know Ben's people don't like Dharma, so this would be why Ben thinks that letting Naomi's people know where they are will not be a good thing.


I was waiting for the helicopter to land and for Dr. Marvin Candle to come out. Him or Penny's dad.

Also, Ben told Jack that "every living person on this island will die." Added "living"? I'm thinking that everyone that is saved will die...well, maybe that is what Ben meant. You will die in the real world. You have a chance to live forever on the island.


----------



## wprager

A few points:

1. Jack's dad is dead in the forward flashes. Jack saying "Bring him down and if I'm more drunk than he ..." is just him saying "Look, you didn't do anything to him and he was way worse than I am now -- so lay off!"

2. On seeing some of the screen caps, the coffin does appear to be small. However the forward flash has to be a couple of years later (probably three, given all the talk about Jack's Krzr phone). So it's not Walt -- he would definitely be taller. Locke may have lost the use of his legs off Island, but I don't think they adjust coffin size for that. Until I see/hear more evidence I'll keep to the Ben theory.

3. The newspaper story has "...a beam in ..." which leads me to believe the man hanged himself. Either Ben or Locke could be suicidal after being forced off the Island.

4. Kate was abandoned and, in a way, judged by Locke, so I can easily see how she would not want to pay respects to Locke. However I don't see why Jack would think that she would want to attend. That points to Sawyers. I am confused.

5. The "him" Kate has to go back to -- I've heard suggestions it could be Kate's son. Except she would not leave a 2-3 year old at home in the middle of the night. I don't think the forward flash was 12-15 years in the future, and it's not like she could get "mom" to stay home with the kid. Sawyer is the most obvious choice ... which rules that out, of course. I'm still confused.

6. Charlie's "must die to save the others" was not very well written. As it has already been pointed out, he could have let the station flood through the little window -- by the time it flooded completely they would have had the SCUBA gear on and been back at the Losties' camp. "Not Penny's Boat" is a bit cryptic -- Charlie would have done more to ensure their survival by telling them a lot more. Bad writing? Man, now I am *really* confused.


----------



## RegBarc

mqpickles said:


> Ever since Ben described his group as the good guys, I've been expecting that to eventually be true in some way. Still doesn't make sense, but it would be fabulous writing if it does make sense by the end.


I think what Lost will be doing is delving into moral relativism. I don't think that Ben is one to preach about the absolutism of Good vs. Evil. I think that, from a certain viewpoint, Ben could be convincing enough to say that they are good in certain ways that benefit the Losties on the island.


----------



## speedcouch

When they first showed Jack last night (with the beard and all), first thing out of my mouth was "he looks older..." but I still didn't get that it was the future until Kate showed up near the end. Totally had me going - though the producers emphasized "space-time continnum" during the recap show. Good episode, excpet for Charlie possibly dying. I knew that Sayid, Jin and Bernard were not shot and that Locke would recover though.

Cheryl


----------



## RegBarc

wprager said:


> 6. Charlie's "must die to save the others" was not very well written. As it has already been pointed out, he could have let the station flood through the little window -- by the time it flooded completely they would have had the SCUBA gear on and been back at the Losties' camp. "Not Penny's Boat" is a bit cryptic -- Charlie would have done more to ensure their survival by telling them a lot more. Bad writing? Man, now I am *really* confused.


Totally agreed.

If I'm not mistaken, if the door to the room was closed from the outside (with the hinges to the door on the inside of the room) wouldn't the pressure from the water effectively sealed the door shut and, thus, saved both Charlie and Desmond?

As it is, it seemed like Charlie just gave up way, WAY too easily. Or he took the premonition entirely too seriously.


----------



## cheesesteak

Maybe next year they'll explain why Jack was walking around with such an obviously fake mustache and beard that everyone decided to ignore. 

Maybe I'm just blood thirsty, but they should have killed Ben too. Or at least stomped his face on a curb.

I think the coffin contained Sun's mutant, zombie child.


----------



## jeffo13

As someone mentioned above, I think it was Juliettes sister that Jack saved. It was her son in the waiting room with the arm in a sling.

Jeff


----------



## sushikitten

There has to be a time-space continuum issue, as mentioned earlier (from the Answers episode). Now, just to figure it out... LOL


----------



## Sheldon469

Sheldon469 said:


> HELP!
> 
> My Tivo did not start recording the final lost episode until minute 59 of the 120 minutes....
> 
> Anyone care to share their tivo file with me so that I could get the full effect of the season finale.
> 
> Desperately,
> Thanks.


Anyone.

^^


----------



## TheGreyOwl

Peter000 said:


> I was wondering about the "lie" like as well. But, there were all sorts of references to Jack being a hero (twice over!), and he referenced a gold pass for Oceanic airlines, so I really think that people know they are survivors of 815, and regard Jack as a hero for saving everyone.


I took the "twice over" comment to refer to him saving the 8 year old boy, and then going back for the mom. But you do have a point about the gold pass.


----------



## markz

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, there was a spinny-closer-thingie on the outside.
> 
> Appears to be?!? Good grief, she was about to pop!





danplaysbass said:


> The actress, Julie Bowen, was pregnant. They even wrote it in to her other show Boston Legal....


I forgot about her really being pregnant, even though I watch Boston Legal.

I bet her character on Lost isn't supposed to be pregnant. They showed her so fast they probably thought no one would notice.


----------



## danplaysbass

Sheldon469 said:


> Anyone.
> 
> ^^


Just grab a torrent of it from mininova.org.

RE: Jacks Dad

Christian Shepherd was Chief of Surgery at the hospital so just the fact that they new doctor was Chief tells me that Jack's dad is, in fact, dead.


----------



## bdlucas

wprager said:


> 6. Charlie's "must die to save the others" was not very well written. As it has already been pointed out, he could have let the station flood through the little window -- by the time it flooded completely they would have had the SCUBA gear on and been back at the Losties' camp. "Not Penny's Boat" is a bit cryptic -- Charlie would have done more to ensure their survival by telling them a lot more. Bad writing? Man, now I am *really* confused.


For that matter they swam down just fine without the scuba gear, so they most likely could have escaped without it.


----------



## TheGreyOwl

Jeeters said:


> I also think the funeral was Ben's. It was not a large coffin at all; not child size, but definitely not 'normal' sized. No way it would fit Locke who many have suggested. Jack also said he was neither friend nor family. I don't see why he'd say that he wasn't a friend of Locke (even with their differences) or Walt or any of the other plane survivors.


As far as the other survivors, I think he would say that about Michael. After all, Michael betrayed them, led to the capture of 4 of them including Jack and Kate, and shot and killed 2 of the survivors.


----------



## TheGreyOwl

By the way, why is everyone calling this episode a "flashforward"? Most episodes are set in the "present time" of the show with flashbacks. I took this episode as being the same...the "present time" was when they are off the island, and all of the island scenes were the flashbacks...?


----------



## crazywater

danplaysbass said:


> Just grab a torrent of it from mininova.org.
> 
> RE: Jacks Dad
> 
> Christian Shepherd was Chief of Surgery at the hospital so just the fact that they new doctor was Chief tells me that Jack's dad is, in fact, dead.


After Jack revealed his father to be a drunk and negligent in the death of his patient he was most probably removed as Chief of Surgery and a new CoS hired...of course that doesn't explain him still working there...but if this is a different timeline then maybe he never was CoS ever....


----------



## markz

Peter000 said:


> I was wondering about the "lie" like as well. But, there were all sorts of references to Jack being a hero (twice over!), and he referenced a gold pass for Oceanic airlines, so I really think that people know they are survivors of 815, and regard Jack as a hero for saving everyone.


I believe he said something like "With the gold pass they gave us, I have been flying a lot", so I assumed everyone that made it back home got one.

I guess the big mysteries for next year are:

1. How many people made it home?
2. Did anyone choose NOT to leave (Ben, Locke, Danielle)?
3. How far ahead was the flash forward?
4. Who's funeral was that?
5. Was the coffin really small, and why? Or was that just a production error?
6. Who does Naomi work for?
7. Is Charley dead?
8. Did Jack kill Ben before leaving the island as he threatened to?
9. Are Ben's people _really_ the "good guys"?
10. Whatever _really_ happened to Michael & Walt?
11. Is Jack's dad dead or alive?

Any other questions to add to the list?


----------



## wprager

jeffo13 said:


> As someone mentioned above, I think it was Juliettes sister that Jack saved. It was her son in the waiting room with the arm in a sling.
> 
> Jeff


I like that, but I'm not sure the timeline is correct. Juliet has been on the Island 3+ years and the kid looked about 8-9. That would mean the FF was 5 years in the future (~2009). Not that it's not possible, but I thought the FF was the present (2007, or about 3 years post-rescue). But, then again, I guess it could have been 2009.


----------



## Carlucci

So who's going to start selling "Who's in the coffin?" T-shirts in the vein of "Who Shot JR?"? There's definitely money to be made there.


Either her father gave her instructions, or Penny figured out the frequency for comminicating with the Looking Glass. She must have been spamming them with an incoming signal from her batcave until the jamming stopped.


----------



## wprager

Sheldon469 said:


> Anyone.
> 
> ^^


ABC.com?


----------



## markz

TheGreyOwl said:


> By the way, why is everyone calling this episode a "flashforward"? Most episodes are set in the "present time" of the show with flashbacks. I took this episode as being the same...the "present time" was when they are off the island, and all of the island scenes were the flashbacks...?


Well for one the name of the funeral home, Hoffs/Drawlar, is an anagram for "flash forward".


----------



## Fish Man

Paperboy2003 said:


> I'm going to hate it when / if Ben was correct. Perhaps next season it will be Ben and the others along with Jacks crew battling the people from the ship...


I think that's most likely.


----------



## tanstaafl

bdlucas said:


> For that matter they swam down just fine without the scuba gear, so they most likely could have escaped without it.


They've been down in the station for a while and the air in there must be pressurized (since it has that open hole in the floor). Going straight up from the station to the surface would almost guarantee them getting the bends, if not an embolism.

Another screencap of the newspaper article

Here's the best anyone has been able to make out of the article from what I've found.


> Man found -------
> downtown loft
> 
> The body of J --- entham of
> New York was --- shortly after 4
> a.m. in the ---- of Grand
> Avenue
> 
> ------------------- at The
> ---------------------- loud
> ---------------------- man's loft.
> -------------------- safety, he
> ----------------------- the
> -------------------- the
> -------------- a beam in the


----------



## Fish Man

betts4 said:


> And best line
> 
> Rose saying "Jack, if you say Live together Die alone, I'm going to punch you in your face"


...four or five times...


----------



## bdlucas

So what was up with Penny "phoning" the Looking Glass station? I guess she must be on the ship that's "invading" the island (according to Ben). She certainly didn't think they were on a mission to rescue Desmond, so these other others seem to have some intrigue within their ranks as well. Maybe now that she knows Desmond is on the island she will prevent them from doing whatever it was that Ben was concerned about that would kill them all. 

Also, do we understand yet the significance of the name Looking Glass?


----------



## bdlucas

markz said:


> I guess the big mysteries for next year are:
> 
> 1. How many people made it home?
> 2. Did anyone choose NOT to leave (Ben, Locke, Danielle)?
> 3. How far ahead was the flash forward?
> 4. Who's funeral was that?
> 5. Was the coffin really small, and why? Or was that just a production error?
> 6. Who does Naomi work for?
> 7. Is Charley dead?
> 8. Did Jack kill Ben before leaving the island as he threatened to?
> 9. Are Ben's people _really_ the "good guys"?
> 10. Whatever _really_ happened to Michael & Walt?
> 11. Is Jack's dad dead or alive?


Sounds like you're assuming we'll see them get off the island next season. Doesn't seem too likely to me...


----------



## jlb

bdlucas said:


> .........Also, do we understand yet the significance of the name Looking Glass?


I am guessing that it is meant to relate directly to the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Through_the_Looking-Glass


----------



## Sirius Black

bdlucas said:


> So what was up with Penny "phoning" the Looking Glass station? I guess she must be on the ship that's "invading" the island (according to Ben). She certainly didn't think they were on a mission to rescue Desmond, so these other others seem to have some intrigue within their ranks as well. Maybe now that she knows Desmond is on the island she will prevent them from doing whatever it was that Ben was concerned about that would kill them all.
> 
> Also, do we understand yet the significance of the name Looking Glass?


Penny claimed she wasn't at all aware of any ship or anyone named Naomi. We don't know much about Penny but what we do know hasn't revealed anything but a desire to find Desmond.


----------



## madscientist

Wow! As others have said, someone tell Heroes _that's_ how to write a season finale. Most excellent.

Just about everything has been said already, although I confess I was completely surprised by the flash forward... even when Kate showed up I thought "whoa, they actually knew each other before the island!" for a second before I figured it out. I guess I don't know that much about mobile phones . Jack talking about his father like he was still alive really threw me (I still don't get it; I don't buy the idea that he knew his father was dead when he said "go check how drunk he is")

When Lindeloff and Cuse said they weren't going to do a last podcast after the season finale I didn't understand why, but now that I've seen the finale I do... what could they say? As much as it hurts it's much better to let us gnaw at this until next season (2008! *sob*)

Loved it!


----------



## markz

Fish Man said:


> ...four or five times...


I said that out loud after that line last night!



bdlucas said:


> Sounds like you're assuming we'll see them get off the island next season. Doesn't seem too likely to me...


True...I should have said "Here are the new questions we are left with after the season finale". I guess we have 48 episodes to answer them all (and any new ones that they throw at us).


----------



## Fish Man

markz said:


> I forgot about her really being pregnant, even though I watch Boston Legal.
> 
> I bet her character on Lost isn't supposed to be pregnant. They showed her so fast they probably thought no one would notice.


Uhhh... no.

There was at least one good, long shot of her belly there.

My wife and I both commented, "Man, how pregnant can a woman get? She's HUGE!!"

I think the writer's used the actress' real life pregnancy to advantage, to show how she was *soooo far beyond Jack* yet Jack had never bothered to change his emergency medical contact information.

Her life had moved on, Jack's had not. Her pregnancy added a poignant degree of pathos to Jack's situation.


----------



## bdlucas

jlb said:


> I am guessing that it is meant to relate directly to the following:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Through_the_Looking-Glass


Right, it's obviously a reference to Lewis Carroll, but what does it signify?


----------



## GDG76

tanstaafl said:


> Here's the best anyone has been able to make out of the article from what I've found.


I assume the "beam" part is that whoever is dead hung themselves from a beam in the ceiling.


----------



## philw1776

bdlucas said:


> Right, it's obviously a reference to Lewis Carroll, but what does it signify?


A faux or alternate reality


----------



## mask2343

Fish Man said:


> Uhhh... no.
> 
> There was at least one good, long shot of her belly there.
> 
> My wife and I both commented, "Man, how pregnant can a woman get? She's HUGE!!"
> 
> I think the writer's used the actress' real life pregnancy to advantage, to show how she was *soooo far beyond Jack* yet Jack had never bothered to change his emergency medical contact information.
> 
> Her life had moved on, Jack's had not. Her pregnancy added a poignant degree of pathos to Jack's situation.


Guy survives a plane wreck, rescues a bunch of people, the rescues 2 more in a car accident...and the girl can't give the man a ride home?!


----------



## rlc1

markz said:


> I believe he said something like "With the gold pass they gave us, I have been flying a lot", so I assumed everyone that made it back home got one.
> 
> I guess the big mysteries for next year are:
> 
> 1. How many people made it home?
> 2. Did anyone choose NOT to leave (Ben, Locke, Danielle)?
> 3. How far ahead was the flash forward?
> 4. Who's funeral was that?
> 5. Was the coffin really small, and why? Or was that just a production error?
> 6. Who does Naomi work for?
> 7. Is Charley dead?
> 8. Did Jack kill Ben before leaving the island as he threatened to?
> 9. Are Ben's people _really_ the "good guys"?
> 10. Whatever _really_ happened to Michael & Walt?
> 11. Is Jack's dad dead or alive?
> 
> Any other questions to add to the list?


Ummm...yeah...like:

12. What's the relevance of the numbers?
13. Why did Ben want the Dharma people dead?
14. What were the Dharma people really doing?
15. Who are the "locals" that were already on the island when young Ben got there?
16. Why are there polar bears on the island?
17. What's with the smoke monster?
18. Will Jack find out that Claire is his half-sister?
19. How is Penny Whitmore tied in with the Looking Glass underwater station transmissions?

I could go on, and on, and on, there seems to be no end to unresolved questions here....


----------



## GDG76

mask2343 said:


> Guy survives a plane wreck, rescues a bunch of people, the rescues 2 more in a car accident...and the girl can't give the man a ride home?!


From everything I surmised, I don't think the general public knows about the plane wreck and them getting rescued. People were acting like it was almost skipped in time or never happened. Surely the new head doctor would have mentioned it when he talked with Jack.

Also, with Jack saying he couldn't lie anymore- either the accident was covered up or they went back to a time where it hadn't yet happened.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

GDG76 said:


> ...Good episode. As I said in a previous thread, I think Naomi is either from Dharma or Widmore Industries.


Agreed. I think Naomi was sent by Penny's father.

Wild guess here, but what about the funeral being for Alex?


----------



## pjenkins

i thought it was obvious the funeral was Bens... the flash forward was a good twist i thought, had me going with "huh?" for about 1/2 the show (yeah, i'm slow!)

great season ender, but as with most things Lost, not a fan of how they ended up going story-wise, but will watch to see how it plays out


----------



## DCIFRTHS

pcguru83 said:


> After now surviving the sonic fence, surviving the a spear to the chest, and possibly surviving a grenade explosion, I think we should seriously consider that there really is something special about Mikhail.
> 
> I think we've passed the point where his rapid healing can be attributed to the Island. It's gotta be something more than that...


He is (was?) an awesome character!


----------



## gossamer88

Sorry to see Tom go. Although he deserved it, it seemed he was ready to betray Ben as well.


----------



## rlc1

pjenkins said:


> i thought it was obvious the funeral was Bens... the flash forward was a good twist i thought, had me going with "huh?" for about 1/2 the show (yeah, i'm slow!)
> 
> great season ender, but as with most things Lost, not a fan of how they ended up going story-wise, but will watch to see how it plays out


I won't like it if the final ending of the series results in basically the same scene as played out at the end of this finale....too depressing....but I kind of hope they end up going back to the island. Of course, first we have to see them get off the island. I think they'll be rescued, because didn't Desmond tell Charlie that in his vision he saw Claire and Aaron being taken away in a helicopter? This would kill any theories that the people on the boat are going to try and kill everyone on the island, as Ben claims.


----------



## stiffi

pcguru83 said:


> After now surviving the sonic fence, surviving the a spear to the chest, and possibly surviving a grenade explosion, I think we should seriously consider that there really is something special about Mikhail.
> 
> I think we've passed the point where his rapid healing can be attributed to the Island. It's gotta be something more than that...


possible smeek, but...

I think at least some of the people who come to the island (or were born there) are immortal. Why else would they have Richard look exaclty the same when Ben met him as a child, as he does now? They should at least have added some grey to his hair! I'm thinking he doesn't age on the island. Mikhail and maybe Locke seem to have some sort of immunity to injury, and Rose has been cured of cancer.

I know lots of people have in fact died, but there are just too many miraculous recoveries for it to be a coincidence. Even to Sawyer being shot before. When he was in shock and infected, he probably should have been a goner, but now he's fine.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

jschuman said:


> I think there are a couple of clues as to the funeral identity:
> 1) No one goes. No family or friends attend.
> 2) Jack says that he is neither friend nor family.
> 3) Kate's quote: "Why would I go to _his_ funeral?" So it must be a male and it is someone Kate does not like.
> 
> With the facts we know now those clues point to either Locke or Ben. (My guess is Ben) Of course, what happens next could totally change things up....


Good point. Kate did say _his_ funeral. Guess it's not Alex


----------



## rlc1

DCIFRTHS said:


> Good point. Kate did say _his_ funeral. Guess it's not Alex


No no no....I just re-watched the final scene this morning, she says "the funeral". But it's clear that it's a man, if you've seen the screen-shots of the obituary Jack is reading on the plane.


----------



## JMikeD

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this:

The car that Kate drove in the flash forward and the van that Hurley drove to save the guys on the beach have the same first three letters in the manufacturer's name (VOLkswagon, VOLvo)! This can't be a coincidence because the difference in delivery charges for the two vehicles FOB Tallahassee is exactly $108 (the sum of The Numbers) adjusted for inflation.

Plus, the gun that Locke found in the pit was a reVOLver. 

Coincidence? I think not.




Yes, of course I'm making gentle fun of our tendency to over-analyze a piece of story-telling. I say "our" because I do it also.  

And I think that it's Vincent in the coffin.


----------



## bdlucas

philw1776 said:


> A faux or alternate reality


Right, but that applies to the whole island as far as we can tell. What about _that station_ makes it the Looking Glass station?


----------



## Paperboy2003

I thought it interesting that Ben didn't seem the least bit surprised to see John walk up after he shot him and left him for dead in the pit. You'd think he'd at least say something about it ...


----------



## TAsunder

bdlucas said:


> Right, but that applies to the whole island as far as we can tell. What about _that station_ makes it the Looking Glass station?


The fact that there's glass in various places that one can look through is probably why it's that station specifically.


----------



## jubrand

Whew, long thread. 

Do we know which characters are from LA to begin with? The person died in NYC, but the funeral was in LA. So clearly there's a reason to ship the body all the way back to LA. 

I guess we have no idea where Ben is actually from (other that being born in Oregon), so it could be him.


----------



## Philosofy

Anyone notice that Jack has a lot more gray in his stubble on the island than his beard did in the future?


----------



## danplaysbass

I have read this entire thread...and this has not been mentioned yet.



markz said:


> 7. Is Charley dead?


Maybe not. I have read from an unconfirmed report that the song Charlie was writing (singing) while tied up with the girls in the Looking Glass was playing in Jack's car at the end of the episode. Maybe Desmond saves him somehow...

This shouldn't be too hard to verify...


----------



## jradford

DCIFRTHS said:


> Agreed. I think Naomi was sent by Penny's father.
> 
> Wild guess here, but what about the funeral being for Alex?


Not a man.

I hated the idea of it being Michael, but the more I think about it, the more it could make sense. My thought is that somehow or another, Jack and Kate are the only ones that made it off the island alive. Jack can't live with the guilt, as somehow he feels responsible for getting everyone else killed. Kate is living with it because she has a bigger responsibility, to raise Aaron, who is the "He" she referred to when she said, "I need to get home, he'll be wondering where I am." Michael is the only other person back in the real world that was on Flight 815 and escaped the island.

9 months of guesses. Man, this will be a long wait.


----------



## DukieTK

Early in the show, Jack led the Losties out from their camp with the ocean on their right IIRC.

A little bit later, they showed them walking, and the ocean was now on their left.

Can someone explain how or why that would happen unless it was an error in the filming?

That to me seems like a pretty big mistake.


----------



## TheGreyOwl

stiffi said:


> possible smeek, but...
> 
> I think at least some of the people who come to the island (or were born there) are immortal. Why else would they have Richard look exaclty the same when Ben met him as a child, as he does now? They should at least have added some grey to his hair! I'm thinking he doesn't age on the island. Mikhail and maybe Locke seem to have some sort of immunity to injury, and Rose has been cured of cancer.
> 
> I know lots of people have in fact died, but there are just too many miraculous recoveries for it to be a coincidence. Even to Sawyer being shot before. When he was in shock and infected, he probably should have been a goner, but now he's fine.


Didn't Juliette even make a comment recently about how people heal much faster on the island?


----------



## markz

danplaysbass said:


> I have read this entire thread...and this has not been mentioned yet.
> 
> Maybe not. I have read from an unconfirmed report that the song Charlie was writing (singing) while tied up with the girls in the Looking Glass was playing in Jack's car at the end of the episode. Maybe Desmond saves him somehow...
> 
> This shouldn't be too hard to verify...


I'll have to go back and rewatch that! Nice clue if true!



jradford said:


> <snip>
> 
> 9 months of guesses. Man, this will be a long wait.


I imagine this thread will reach the maximum length and get locked by then!


----------



## durl

Great episode.

- Great seeing Ben get smacked around.
- Loved Sawyer's line to Mr. Friendly.
- And I LOVED the fact that Rousseau's first words to her daughter involved tying Ben up.

Some thoughts:

- I don't think the funeral is for Ben. The neighborhood just didn't seem to fit. I'm thinking that it's a character we haven't met yet.

- I wonder if Charlie will make it back to life somehow. And Desmond kept saving Charlie, extending his life, but Charlie is the one who ends up shutting down the jammer so the Losties can be rescued? I'm guessing Desmond's visions change based upon how he alters the timeline.

- And we talk about the flashbacks all the time, but should we now wonder if there have been "flash-forwards" in previous episodes?

And the big questions for me:

- Why do Ben and Locke seem to have the same goal even though they are bitter enemies?
- Why doesn't Ben just kill the Losties? What's the benefit of keeping them alive? Perhaps it's tied to:
- Why is it SO dang important for women to have babies there?


----------



## tanstaafl

rlc1 said:


> Ummm...yeah...like:
> 
> 12. What's the relevance of the numbers?
> 13. Why did Ben want the Dharma people dead?
> 14. What were the Dharma people really doing?
> 15. Who are the "locals" that were already on the island when young Ben got there?
> 16. Why are there polar bears on the island?
> 17. What's with the smoke monster?
> 18. Will Jack find out that Claire is his half-sister?
> 19. How is Penny Whitmore tied in with the Looking Glass underwater station transmissions?
> 
> I could go on, and on, and on, there seems to be no end to unresolved questions here....


Some of these have been answered. Off the top of my head:

12 - The Numbers were explained in the Lost Experience. Specifically, they are 


Spoiler



the core values of the Valenzetti Equations


, part of Dharma's research
16 - They were being used in Dharma's research. From the Hatch map, Dharma was attempting to genetically modify polar bears to live in hotter environments. They were kept in the cage at the Hydra station, escaped at some point and simply swam across to the main island. (The sharks also came from the Hydra station)
17 - TPTB have said they will answer this but that it will be one of the last things they do answer
18 - There is no reason that either of them should necessarily ever find out. We know and it's an interesting connection between them but I'm not sure I would call it an unanswered question, or even a question at all.


----------



## mwhip

danplaysbass said:


> I have read this entire thread...and this has not been mentioned yet.
> 
> Maybe not. I have read from an unconfirmed report that the song Charlie was writing (singing) while tied up with the girls in the Looking Glass was playing in Jack's car at the end of the episode. Maybe Desmond saves him somehow...
> 
> This shouldn't be too hard to verify...


Charlie was singing the one hit his band had and that happened before the island so Jack was listening to their CD.


----------



## Skittles

mwhip said:


> Charlie was singing the one hit his band had and that happened before the island so Jack was listening to their CD.


He was also singing a fake song that he was making up on the spot, when the two women hear him talking to Desmond.


----------



## mwhip

Skittles said:


> He was also singing a fake song that he was making up on the spot, when the two women hear him talking to Desmond.


I thought it was this song:

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/You_All_Everybody

I guess I will need to rewatch that.


----------



## Magister

DukieTK said:


> Early in the show, Jack led the Losties out from their camp with the ocean on their right IIRC.
> 
> A little bit later, they showed them walking, and the ocean was now on their left.
> 
> Can someone explain how or why that would happen unless it was an error in the filming?
> 
> That to me seems like a pretty big mistake.


Well... If they crossed the island then you are on the other side. Right? This isnt' a Maryland/Oregon sized mix up.


----------



## MFruchey

danplaysbass said:


> Maybe not. I have read from an unconfirmed report that the song Charlie was writing (singing) while tied up with the girls in the Looking Glass was playing in Jack's car at the end of the episode. Maybe Desmond saves him somehow...


I'm at work, so I can't rewatch, but I'm pretty sure Jack listening to Nirvana's "Serve the Servants". Perhaps there was another song I didn't notice?

EDIT: or was it "Scentless Apprentice"? Having trouble remembering my Nirvana songs.


----------



## Martin Tupper

bdlucas said:


> For that matter they swam down just fine without the scuba gear, so they most likely could have escaped without it.


If the Looking Glass is pressurized (which it obviously is, because of the open bottom) they'd get the bends from rushing up to the surface as quickly as they could.


----------



## TiVotion

At the risk of smeeking...it's nearly impossible not to in a thread of this length...

I wish I hadn't read the complete spoiler that was floating around other places last week, because it was dead on - and killed much of the surprise for me.

1. "Who's in the casket" is all the rage. If we're watching future events, who is to say that whoever is in the casket is someone we've already met? My money is on it being someone we HAVEN'T met yet.

2. I believe that Jack's reference to his father in the hospital ("bring my father down here") was just an attempt at keeping people under the assumption they were watching a flashBACK up until the very end. Also jives with the thought that Jack was just bombed out of his mind, and didn't know any better. Possible exception, this is an alternate timeline and his father is alive.

3. We don't know that Charlie is dead. A nice swerve would be if he's not. Remember, he CAN hold his breath. We DO know that Naomi is a lair - she specifically told the Losties that Charlie got rescued.

4. WHY was it necessary for Jack and Kate to meet in a deserted location at the end of the episode in the flash forward? It looked like a service road at the airport. Why?? At first, I thought it was because Kate was a fugitive. But that makes no sense, because my other theory is that in this "future", the world doesn't seem to know about the crash of Oceanic 815...and likewise, Kate's past isn't her past any longer. But then THAT doesn't make sense, because why else would Oceanic give "us" (according to Jack) the Golden Ticket free passes? Unless it was to make up for something ELSE besides the crash of 815 that we haven't seen yet, if the crash of 815 'never happened'. GAH!!!

5. At the end of the episode, we are supposed to assume that when Kate references having to return home to a man, that man would be James.

6. My biggest question. Near the end of the episode, we see Jack all drunk, studying maps, etc. Shortly thereafter, he meets up with Kate and he's emphatic that "we have to go back (to the island)!" So the # 1 thing I want to know at this point is, CAN they go back AT WILL? Have they found a "doorway" on and off the island? Or, as Jack was lamenting, do they have to keep flying around hoping a plane will crash...again? If Jack thinks they have to go back...HOW do they get back?

IF the "ship people" and Naomi are actually the bad guys, the next level for the show would be to create a battle between the ship people faction and the Losties+Others (once the ship people hit the shore). Somehow in all that, it would appear at this point that perhaps some time 2 years into the show's future (what, another 60 days island time?), Jack and Kate, at least, find a way off of the island. Is the "Looking Glass" an actual portal? That's my theory. Somehow, when you go on and off the island, time and events get skewed.

Good lord. I need a drink now. And I don't even drink.


----------



## plenzmd1

Martin Tupper said:


> If the Looking Glass is pressurized (which it obviously is, because of the open bottom) they'd get the bends from rushing up to the surface as quickly as they could.


No they wouldn't. Dam thing wasn't that deep in the first place, and secondly they could have let out the air as they surfaced


----------



## danplaysbass

mwhip said:


> I thought it was this song:
> 
> http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/You_All_Everybody
> 
> I guess I will need to rewatch that.


He did sing that song too. But there was point where he said he made up a song and all he had left was the bridge.



MFruchey said:


> I'm at work, so I can't rewatch, but I'm pretty sure Jack listening to Nirvana's "Serve the Servants". Perhaps there was another song I didn't notice?


That could be but he was in the car several different times. Again, this was not something I caught so I have yet to verify it...which means I have no clue where this would have shown up...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

mwhip said:


> I thought it was this song:
> 
> http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/You_All_Everybody
> 
> I guess I will need to rewatch that.


At one point, he started singing something else, and even mentioned the fact that he was "almost done" writing it, or some such.


TiVotion said:


> 4. WHY was it necessary for Jack and Kate to meet in a deserted location at the end of the episode in the flash forward? It looked like a service road at the airport.


From what Jack said while setting up the meeting, it sounded like the place had personal significance to Jack and Kate.


TiVotion said:


> 6. My biggest question. Near the end of the episode, we see Jack all drunk, studying maps, etc. Shortly thereafter, he meets up with Kate and he's emphatic that "we have to go back (to the island)!" So the # 1 thing I want to know at this point is, CAN they go back AT WILL? Have they found a "doorway" on and off the island? Or, as Jack was lamenting, do they have to keep flying around hoping a plane will crash...again? If Jack thinks they have to go back...HOW do they get back?


He obviously can't go back at will, because he spends all his time flying back and forth across the Pacific just on the chance that he'll crash again. So it's pretty clear the island is (again?) cut off from the world.


----------



## scottykempf

Why do some people assume that no one knows about Oceanic Flight 815 crashing? Just because the people that Jack met didn't mention it to him, doesnt mean anything. He was obviously drunk and high, would you bring the crash up to someone like him? Also, its not polite to say, "Hey, aren't you that guy that was on that plane were all bu a few people diead?"


----------



## Graymalkin

I'm thinking -- and this is totally off the top of my head here -- that in the flash-forward, Jack is desperate to get back to the island because he couldn't rescue everyone and had to make a Sophie's Choice about who to rescue and who to leave behind. He (and the other rescuees) also have had to pretend that those left behind are dead, which might be tearing him apart inside.


----------



## markz

mwhip said:


> I thought it was this song:
> 
> http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/You_All_Everybody
> 
> I guess I will need to rewatch that.


The scene as I recall it:

When the girls first came out to see what the racket was, Charley was making up lyrics. Then they asked who he was talking to and he answered that he was singing. He then started singing "You All Everybody".


----------



## flyersfan

TiVotion said:


> 3. We don't know that Charlie is dead. A nice swerve would be if he's not. Remember, he CAN hold his breath. We DO know that Naomi is a lair - she specifically told the Losties that Charlie got rescued.


What? To the best of my recollection, she never said anything about Charlie being rescued. She DID say that a posthumous greatest hits album was released.

It really seems like grasping at straws to claim Charlie is still alive. He exhaled as he pushed away from the door. He accepted his fate as told to him from Desmond's vision. Based on what Desmond mentioned, he believed the only way for Claire and Aaron to get rescued was for him to not alter that vision. Lastly, and this is obviously all my opinion, it would cheapen and invalidate the entire previous episode, Greatest Hits. Charlie had some real bad moments on the island but he was finally able to completely redeem himself with the selfless act he was about to commit. The writers have made it clear that not everyone survives and they've shown many times how not all characters can expect a happy ending. To have him survive miraculously at this point would be beyond lame.


----------



## betts4

flyersfan said:


> What? To the best of my recollection, she never said anything about Charlie being rescued. She DID say that a posthumous greatest hits album was released.
> 
> It really seems like grasping at straws to claim Charlie is still alive. He exhaled as he pushed away from the door. He accepted his fate as told to him from Desmond's vision. Based on what Desmond mentioned, he believed the only way for Claire and Aaron to get rescued was for him to not alter that vision. Lastly, and this is obviously all my opinion, it would cheapen and invalidate the entire previous episode, Greatest Hits. Charlie had some real bad moments on the island but he was finally able to completely redeem himself with the selfless act he was about to commit. The writers have made it clear that not everyone survives and they've shown many times how not all characters can expect a happy ending. To have him survive miraculously at this point would be beyond lame.


He made the sign of the cross - that catholic thing - and I think he was expecting to die.

I'm going to have to check the tivo later today, but think I saw evidence of a real, live, true musician's inside joke in Charlie's punching in the code sequence. Soon to be pushing up daisies Bonnie confides that the numerical sequence is "Good Vibrations," with a bevy of numbers. Charlie's musician mind knows that there are too many numbers for the musical signiture of the song that I'll be everyone here mentally played in their heads when they said the name of the song, that of Carol Kaye's bass lines for the chorus "I'm pickin' up good vibrations..." etc. INSTEAD, it was the vocal chorus bridge of wordless "ba da da da da, ba da dah! " etc. Charlie's musician instincts for once served him quite well.


----------



## betts4

TiVotion said:


> 5. At the end of the episode, we are supposed to assume that when Kate references having to return home to a man, that man would be James.
> 
> 6. My biggest question. Near the end of the episode, we see Jack all drunk, studying maps, etc. Shortly thereafter, he meets up with Kate and he's emphatic that "we have to go back (to the island)!" So the # 1 thing I want to know at this point is, CAN they go back AT WILL? Have they found a "doorway" on and off the island? Or, as Jack was lamenting, do they have to keep flying around hoping a plane will crash...again? If Jack thinks they have to go back...HOW do they get back?


Richard and Ethan went back...and forth...and back....why can't Jack, once he knows where he is going and how to get there?


----------



## astrohip

Wow, servers are being hammered. I've gotten two "too busy to respond" pages trying to reply . . .

One thing that I think may be of critical importance as this show plays out was Jack's comment to Kate at the end that (paraphrasing) "it's time to stop lying". I think this is more than just a passing statement. There is some aspect about Jack & Kate's return to civilization that is being hidden from the world. Maybe the world (still) doesn't even know about the island. Maybe they were rescued from some other place (moved from "our" island to a regular, visible island). Maybe the world thinks they (or only a very few of them) actually survived, and doesn't know there are more back on the island. Could be anything, but I think it's important. Important enough that they're lying about it.

+1 on I hope this is not a flash-forward to the end. What a depressing series finale that would be


----------



## Martin Tupper

plenzmd1 said:


> No they wouldn't. Dam thing wasn't that deep in the first place, and secondly they could have let out the air as they surfaced



Letting air our might prevent your lungs from bursting, would do anything about the bends. The bends occur when nitrogen in you bloodstream returns to a gaseous state (bubbles) during a sudden decompression.
Since the station would have to be pressurized to equal the water pressure at the opening at the bottom of the station, They were probably at about at 3-4 atmospheres.
Charlie had been down there many hours building up nitrogen in his bloodstream. (Mikhail hadn't even started his overnight hike to the beach when the girls radioed Ben).


----------



## thenightfly42

durl said:


> - Why do Ben and Locke seem to have the same goal even though they are bitter enemies?


We don't really know either of their goals are. Locke's seems to be "stay on the island forever". Ben's is "lead", and he fears that Locke will become the new leader. Ben really wasn't making good decisions over the last few episodes - things were happening too quickly for him, and he was losing his grip on several of his Others.


----------



## rufus_x_s

wprager said:


> 6. Charlie's "must die to save the others" was not very well written. As it has already been pointed out, he could have let the station flood through the little window -- by the time it flooded completely they would have had the SCUBA gear on and been back at the Losties' camp. "Not Penny's Boat" is a bit cryptic -- Charlie would have done more to ensure their survival by telling them a lot more. Bad writing? Man, now I am *really* confused.


Cryptic, but what else did he know? I was thinking he could/should write, "Naomi bad," but we don't know that. All he and we know is that Penny doesn't know who Naomi is, so that presumably this isn't Penny's boat and/or rescue mission. Which is the message he delivered to Desmond.

Although, how did Penny get right on the horn like that right away, as some people have asked? She must be zeroing in on them somehow.


----------



## wprager

Martin Tupper said:


> If the Looking Glass is pressurized (which it obviously is, because of the open bottom) they'd get the bends from rushing up to the surface as quickly as they could.


The Island has cured spinal-cord injury, cancer, impotence, sonic-wave brain damage, punctured lung, and arrow-and-bullet chest wounds.

It seems to be having problems with baldness and obesity, so I am not sure if "the bends" is a piece of cake for it or not.

Plus, the station is some 20 feet under water. Is that enough to give you the bends?


----------



## JYoung

Martin Tupper said:


> Letting air our might prevent your lungs from bursting, would do anything about the bends. The bends occur when nitrogen in you bloodstream returns to a gaseous state (bubbles) during a sudden decompression.
> Since the station would have to be pressurized to equal the water pressure at the opening at the bottom of the station, They were probably at about at 3-4 atmospheres.
> Charlie had been down there many hours building up nitrogen in his bloodstream. (Mikhail hadn't even started his overnight hike to the beach when the girls radioed Ben).


Mikhail didn't seem to be worried about the bends. 

On the other hand did we see what happened to Mikhail after he showed the grenade?
Was he caught in the explosion?


----------



## thenightfly42

scottykempf said:


> And I admit to saying about the VW van "Who thinks that this is the last we will ever see the van?" when Hurley took his first joy ride in it? I was wrong.


I agree, and I also love how most of us assumed that the whole "Tricia Tanaka is Dead" episode was comedic filler while they took a break from the "real" plot, and yet it still had all sorts of critical information in it.


----------



## rlc1

I thought that you only got the bends if you tried to ascend too quickly...that it could be avoided if you just floated up slowly.


----------



## Skittles

JYoung said:


> On the other hand did we see what happened to Mikhail after he showed the grenade?
> Was he caught in the explosion?


From what I saw, he put the grenade up against the porthole and then pushed himself away from it.

Granted, I'm no expert on underwater explosions, but I'd bet good money that Mikkie's still alive. He probably only had to get about 5 - 10 feet away to avoid serious damage.

Plus, they never showed him actually dying, so he's got to be alive. 

So let's see... Mikkie's now survived the Sonic Fence, and a harpoon through the chest that probably barely grazed his heart from the way it looked. The guy leads a charmed life.


----------



## Fish Man

DCIFRTHS said:


> Agreed. I think Naomi was sent by Penny's father.


+1. This is my best guess also.

Penny is aware of the island and aware of the fact that Desmond is on it because she has "moles" in her father's organization that leak some of what he is up to to her.

But, she doesn't know everything he is doing and he managed to keep the boat containing Naomi that he sent to the island a secret from her.

Expanding on this theory:

In the '70s the island was under the control of Dharma. Dharma's "real world" umbrella organization was Alvar Hanso's foundation.

Circa 1980, Dharma's control of the island was overthrown by "hostiles" (with horribly evil morals, they murdered most of the Dharma people in order to take over the island). They accomplished this with the help of "double agent" Ben. Ben is now their leader (at least locally, on the island). It is still a mystery what "umbrella organization" back in the real world the "hostiles" answer to. But, we know they must have strong ties back into the "real world" as they are able to obtain detailed bios on people and recruit people they want (e. g. Juliet) from the real world using false pretences and credentials.

The "hostiles" didn't successfully capture every Dharma station, however. Dharma maintained at least tenuous control of "the swan". "The incident" mentioned in the Swan Orientation film (copyright 1980) is, in fact, the takeover of the island by the hostiles. This is why the film warns not to use the computer to contact anyone outside the Swan station, because you'd be contacting "hostiles", and giving away the The Swan was still controlled by Dharma!

A third group, whos "real world" connection is Widmore (Penny's father and his huge and powerful company), is now vying to take over the island from whoever Ben's group is.



DCIFRTHS said:


> Wild guess here, but what about the funeral being for Alex?


Interesting theory.


----------



## Mike Farrington

TheGreyOwl said:


> Jack did tell Kate that he was tired of lying all the time. Perhaps nobody knows they were the survivors of flight 815? If everyone else found the plane and dead bodies (according to Naomi), maybe the survivors from the island had a good reason to cover up who they really were? Not sure what that would be, though.


I've got a wild-assed theory (doesn't everyone). What if Jack and Kate (and maybe a few others) are somehow thrown back in time at some future point? Jack prevents his father's death somehow. He also saves Flight 815 from disaster somehow, garnering him his hero status and getting him his Golden Ticket from Oceanic (which according to one of the Lost sites (which may not be cannon) ceased operation after 815 went down). That would make the flash-forwards more of a flash-sideways into an alternate timeline that would bug many people. How else do we explain Christian Shepard's existence (unless to wave it off as a side-effect of of Jack's drug abuse).


----------



## Martin Tupper

rlc1 said:


> I thought that you only got the bends if you tried to ascend too quickly...that it could be avoided if you just floated up slowly.


Correct. But if you don't have a supply of oxygen, you can't take your time getting to the surface.


----------



## sonnik

Dude, Locke is a dick. 

Seriously, when have we ever seen him just walk up and shoot someone for little reason. Did Locke have info on Naomi? I don't think he'd just walk up and kill a complete stranger for no reason (I don't think he even had met Naomi).

Secondly, put me down for a vote that we've moved from the end of 2004 to present day 2007 and the Island will now be the flashbacks we see.

They return to civilization in early-2005, have to get adjusted to being in society, being away from all their friends on the island, and settling in to their new lives. I can see how that would take a couple years...

But what about the damn four-toed statue?


----------



## hefe

TheGreyOwl said:


> By the way, why is everyone calling this episode a "flashforward"? Most episodes are set in the "present time" of the show with flashbacks. I took this episode as being the same...the "present time" was when they are off the island, and all of the island scenes were the flashbacks...?


Because it was. The primary narrative has always been on the island after the crash. The fragmented and incomplete departures from this storyline have always been into the past, and this time they were in the future.


----------



## Fish Man

sonnik said:


> Seriously, when have we ever seen him just walk up and shoot someone for little reason. Did Locke have info on Naomi? I don't think he'd just walk up and kill a complete stranger for no reason (I don't think he even had met Naomi).


"Walt" told him about Naomi.

The "image-of-Walt" seemed to have a lot of insight as to what was going on.


----------



## Mike Farrington

cheesesteak said:


> Maybe next year they'll explain why Jack was walking around with such an obviously fake mustache and beard that everyone decided to ignore.


No kidding. I love how they went from his overgrown beard to showing Jack on the island. Look at Jack's beard stubble, he has grey stubble. Are we to assume that Jack has let himself go as much as he has, but still worries about coloring his beard?


----------



## betts4

I just find it really ironic that the entire time Jack was on the island (so far) and away from a regular supply of razors, he was clean shaven, but now that he's back to the mainland he looks like a hobo. 

One important thing we've learned from the finale? It's possible to leave the island. It's not purgatory or hell, as some have claimed. It's not "This Island Earth" where they're all on some crazy spaceship. It's the real world, and it sucks. 

However, I don't like this Jack, all crazy and addicted to painkillers. Here's to hoping we can change the future. 

And how is it not "appropriate" to give your ex-husband a ride home from the hospital after schlepping your way all the way down to the hospital? Sarah can kiss my booty.


----------



## Family

Haven't read every post yet, but is one reason Ben wanted Locke to kill his father because it would have been easier later to murder to protect the Island?


----------



## Fish Man

betts4 said:


> And how is it not "appropriate" to give your ex-husband a ride home from the hospital after schlepping your way all the way down to the hospital? Sarah can kiss my booty.


Indeed.

She's a major Beyatch.

But, we knew that.


----------



## ireland967

Didn't Ben mention something to Jack about how he was once involved in the killing of 40 people? Is he referring to the gassing which I've always assumed to be many more, or something else?

Penny didn't have the level of enthusiasm I'd expect from someone who finally found a person they've spent over three years looking for.

You can see Locke slinking away while Jack is speaking to the person at the other end of the phone. If there is a rescue or attack on the Losties, he may be separating himself from it right away.

Strange that the function of the Looking Glass was able to block all incoming/outgoing transmissions to the real world, but the Communications station was able to send and receive information on the Oceanic flight's crash and passengers.


----------



## Philosofy

Althought I think he's dead, there is a chance Charlie could still be alive. If the room he is in is watertight, it will only fill up so much with water: the air above the porthole will be trapped in the room, and be under some pressure from the depth it is at. Charlie could take a deep breath, which at 30 feet down would be twice as much air as sea level, and have plenty of air for a slow ascent to the surface.


----------



## gchance

Family said:


> Haven't read every post yet, but is one reason Ben wanted Locke to kill his father because it would have been easier later to murder to protect the Island?


I was wondering about this sort of thing myself.

Locke couldn't/didn't kill his father because he's "not a killer" (his words). Presumably this is why he couldn't kill Jack, yet he killed Naomi.

I won't be taking part in this discussion. It's too fast & furious, I have work to do. 

I will say, though, that the last year's mid-season finale came close to 1000 posts before stopping, and would have continued had it not been for Lost's return. I would expect the same from this thread.

Greg


----------



## rufus_x_s

Fish Man said:


> The "hostiles" didn't successfully capture every Dharma station, however. Dharma maintained at least tenuous control of "the swan". "The incident" mentioned in the Swan Orientation film (copyright 1980) is, in fact, the takeover of the island by the hostiles. This is why the film warns not to use the computer to contact anyone outside the Swan station, because you'd be contacting "hostiles", and giving away the The Swan was still controlled by Dharma!


Although the question mark station (Pearl?) was able to monitor the Swan station so that the Others should have been aware of it? (Which goes against the surprise I remember from the early days of the Swan hatch discovery -- seemed like the Others did _not_ know about it.


----------



## wprager

Martin Tupper said:


> Correct. But if you don't have a supply of oxygen, you can't take your time getting to the surface.


IANADI, but I've been looking for dive tables, and one version I found only had data for 30' dives. At least the top of the Looking Glass station wasn't that far down.

Also, they had SCUBA equipment. That should give them enough oxygen for a controlled ascent even if it was from 60' down.


----------



## whitepelican

Fish Man said:


> She's a major Beyatch.


Hey, now. Watch what you say about Carol Vessey.


----------



## cheesesteak

I never really liked Charlie although he did redeem himself a lot in the last third of the season. The fact that he got beat up by a girl made me laugh, though.


----------



## wprager

Fish Man said:


> "Walt" told him about Naomi.
> 
> The "image-of-Walt" seemed to have a lot of insight as to what was going on.


Walt is in the present (future for Losties). This explains his age. He must have projected himself to the Island. Perhaps when he got off the Island he was taken away for research (remember, he was "special") by Widmore/Hanso/Dharma/Mittelos. He has been able to learn to control his ability (or abilities) which is how he was able to project himself to the Island.

This could also have a hand in how Jack/Kate get back to the Island.


----------



## teknikel

markz said:


> http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/
> 
> And they were right on!


Why in the world would you want all this info before watching? I would never be able to enjoy the show as intended.


----------



## RunnerFL

wprager said:


> 6. Charlie's "must die to save the others" was not very well written. As it has already been pointed out, he could have let the station flood through the little window -- by the time it flooded completely they would have had the SCUBA gear on and been back at the Losties' camp. "Not Penny's Boat" is a bit cryptic -- Charlie would have done more to ensure their survival by telling them a lot more. Bad writing? Man, now I am *really* confused.


If Charlie had not closed the door prior to the grenade going off the sudden loss in pressure would have severely de-stabilized the moon pool and the whole station would have flooded too fast.


----------



## cheesesteak

There seemed to be some pretty nice looking women in the seemingly unlimited supply of Others. If fertility research was so important to Ben and he had cult-like control over them why weren't the Others busy getting busy and having babies among each other instead of worrying about Claire, Kate and Sun?


----------



## Martin Tupper

wprager said:


> IANADI, but I've been looking for dive tables, and one version I found only had data for 30' dives. At least the top of the Looking Glass station wasn't that far down.


Funny, I thought the top was _at least_ that far down (and as I said before, the station would be pressurized to match the water pressure at the _bottom _of the station.



wprager said:


> Also, they had SCUBA equipment. That should give them enough oxygen for a controlled ascent even if it was from 60' down.


Sure they shouldn't have a problem if they used the SCUBA gear. But the whole point was that someone was arguing that they didn't need to bother with the SCUBA gear and should have just swum up to the surface. Since the gear was available, and the station was not flooding at that point, there was no reason to risk not using it.


----------



## Fish Man

cheesesteak said:


> I never really liked Charlie although he did redeem himself a lot in the last third of the season. The fact that he got beat up by a girl made me laugh, though.


Very, very hot, and tough girl!

Wow! :up:

Sucks they killed her off! :down:

"Bonnie":


----------



## Fish Man

cheesesteak said:


> There seemed to be some pretty nice looking women in the seemingly unlimited supply of Others. If fertility research was so important to Ben and he had cult-like control over them why weren't the Others busy getting busy and having babies among each other instead of worrying about Claire, Kate and Sun?


Because any woman becoming pregnant while on the island dies before carrying the baby to term (and apparently before the baby could survive outside the womb).

That's the *main problem* Ben's people are apparently trying to solve. That's why they brought Juliet to the island; to determine why this is so, and to try to find a solution.

This means Sun is doomed unless she can get off the island or a solution can be found to this problem.

Women who are pregnant already when they come to the island are OK. Examples are Danielle and Claire.


----------



## astrohip

stevieleej said:


> In the flash forward scenes, Jack was a hero (for the car accident, AND for saving people from the island) <snip>


Was it ever made clear that Jack was a hero for anything related to the plane crash? The only hero references I caught were for saving the mom & son that were in the car crash. Which we find out later he inadvertently caused.

Also, there were one or two posts that posited that the lady that crashed was Juliette's sister. Is this legit, or just wishful easter-egg thinking?


----------



## rufus_x_s

I thought the other woman in the Looking Glass looked like Sawyer's old con victim/partner/victim, the one that later met up with Kate for a while.


----------



## ireland967

The name change doesn't make much sense, and like most everyone else I've been on the lookout since meeting the character which is probably affecting my judgement, but I get a grown-up Annie vibe when looking at Bonnie.


----------



## rufus_x_s

Oh, and someone had mentioned maybe Ben wanted the ship to get to the island, which if that was dependent on ending the jamming, then it seems at odds with his order to Mikhail to kill the women and Charlie.


----------



## Martin Tupper

mostman said:


> OK - two things.
> 
> First - like ufo said above - what was Jack talking about his father like he was alive? There is a reason they wrote that in - probably a major one.
> 
> Second - for those asking why did Charlie not swim out. He knew he was supposed to die. He locked Desmond out to relieve Desmond from having to save him again - and again - and again. He was doing the noble thing.


The way I say that scene was that Charlie slammed the door to keep Desmond from seeing Penny on the screen, because he would have rushed to the terminal (right next to the porthole) and would have been killed.


----------



## hapdrastic

mqpickles said:


> I will miss Tom, but I was glad Sawyer killed him. It was realistic, and sensible.
> 
> On another note, loved the mother and child reunion, especially Ben's matter-of-fact introduction.


"Do you want to help me tie him up?"


----------



## hapdrastic

Graymalkin said:


> I'm thinking -- and this is totally off the top of my head here -- that in the flash-forward, Jack is desperate to get back to the island because he couldn't rescue everyone and had to make a Sophie's Choice about who to rescue and who to leave behind. He (and the other rescuees) also have had to pretend that those left behind are dead, which might be tearing him apart inside.


There's no way Jack would have chosen to take himself home and not other Losties, in that case.

Myself I like the alternate timeline theory...but I guess we'll see next year.


----------



## hapdrastic

Roadblock said:


> Seems clear that we don't get to know who the dead guy was until at least next season. I didn't like Charlie's exit either, it seemed like bad writing. This was a great episode but rather unsatisfying for a season finale.


Am I the only one who liked Charlie's death? As others (not "Others") have said, he sacrificed himself. It was one of the most selfless deaths I've seen, I thought it was very well done.


----------



## hapdrastic

JETarpon said:


> Hoffs/Drawler funeral parlor.
> 
> Hoffs/Drawler = flash forward


err...really, that'd be "flesh forward"...I think it was Drawlar



TiVotion said:


> We DO know that Naomi is a lair - she specifically told the Losties that Charlie got rescued.


I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that she said that Charlie got *them* rescued, not that he was rescued.


----------



## Martin Tupper

ireland967 said:


> Didn't Ben mention something to Jack about how he was once involved in the killing of 40 people? Is he referring to the gassing which I've always assumed to be many more, or something else?
> 
> Penny didn't have the level of enthusiasm I'd expect from someone who finally found a person they've spent over three years looking for.
> 
> You can see Locke slinking away while Jack is speaking to the person at the other end of the phone. If there is a rescue or attack on the Losties, he may be separating himself from it right away.
> 
> Strange that the function of the Looking Glass was able to block all incoming/outgoing transmissions to the real world, but the Communications station was able to send and receive information on the Oceanic flight's crash and passengers.


Earlier in the season the others said that they haven't been able to communicate with the outside world since the sky turned purple (Desmond blew the hatch). So, based on what we know from this episode, Ben ordered the Looking Glass Girls to start jamming transmissions right after Desmond blew the hatch.


----------



## tanstaafl

RunnerFL said:


> If Charlie had not closed the door prior to the grenade going off the sudden loss in pressure would have severely de-stabilized the moon pool and the whole station would have flooded too fast.


Ooh, good point. If the window had blown while the door was open then air would have gone _out_ the window and the water would have come _in_ through the moon pool.

The rising water would still have stopped once the water level rose above the broken porthole though.

As for depth, just from the way it looked I would have guessed that the station is 40 to 60 feet down. (The plans that Sayid was looking at last week showed the bottom of the station at 70 _meters_ in depth. That would be 230 feet and is obviously wrong.)


----------



## markz

teknikel said:


> Why in the world would you want all this info before watching? I would never be able to enjoy the show as intended.


I don't know why. I have just always enjoyed knowing stuff like that. My wife is the same way. Actually, when people I work with know that I have some info about an upcoming episode, they always make me tell them. None of them has ever said "No, I don't want to know."

There is always the chance that the spoiler info is wrong (a foiler).

I actually was on the edge of my seat last night for most of the episode!

I have never been regretful after reading a spoiler for a show.


----------



## stiffi

Fish Man said:


> "Walt" told him about Naomi.
> 
> The "image-of-Walt" seemed to have a lot of insight as to what was going on.


Why does everybody keep talking about Walt? Was he in this episode? What did I miss?


----------



## brianp6621

stiffi said:


> Why does everybody keep talking about Walt? Was he in this episode? What did I miss?


Um, Locke, grave site...


----------



## stiffi

brianp6621 said:


> Um, Locke, grave site...


Still confused. Was this a scene in the "Looking Glass" episode? Maybe my Tivo missed some of the recording?


----------



## DevdogAZ

A few thoughts:

If Locke went to all the trouble to come and stop Naomi from calling her ship, to the point of killing her, why did he stand by while Jack made the call and not put up more of a fight to destroy the phone before the call was answered?

Rose and Bernard are from New York (I think).



Rob Helmerichs said:


> He obviously can't go back at will, because he spends all his time flying back and forth across the Pacific just on the chance that he'll crash again. So it's pretty clear the island is (again?) cut off from the world.


And the fact that he was flying to many different destinations across the Pacific, including Tokyo, indicates that he has no idea where exactly the island is, since the direction from L.A. to Tokyo is totally different than the direction from L.A. to Sydney.



scottykempf said:


> Why do some people assume that no one knows about Oceanic Flight 815 crashing? Just because the people that Jack met didn't mention it to him, doesnt mean anything. He was obviously drunk and high, would you bring the crash up to someone like him? Also, its not polite to say, "Hey, aren't you that guy that was on that plane were all bu a few people diead?"


Not to mention that if anyone had said anything like that, it would have given away the fact that it was a flash forward, which the writers were not about to do at any point in the episode prior to the final scene.

When Mikhail arrives at The Looking Glass, he tells Bonnie and Greta that he thought they were on assignment in Canada. This indicates that The Other's organization is much more widespread than just the island (or at least those on the island think it is).


----------



## DevdogAZ

stiffi said:


> Still confused. Was this a scene in the "Looking Glass" episode? Maybe my Tivo missed some of the recording?


the episode was two hours. If your TiVo didn't record all two hours, you definitely missed a lot.


----------



## brianp6621

stiffi said:


> Still confused. Was this a scene in the "Looking Glass" episode? Maybe my Tivo missed some of the recording?


There have been 2 "looking glass episodes" the last one was I think just the Looking Glass, this weeks was the season finale and was called Through the Looking Glass.

Did you watch last night?


----------



## brianp6621

BTW, there is a Grand Tower apartments on Grand Avenue in L.A. 

Not that that matters or really means anything.


----------



## Fish Man

stiffi said:


> Still confused. Was this a scene in the "Looking Glass" episode? Maybe my Tivo missed some of the recording?


  Pretty pivotal scene!


----------



## DevdogAZ

brianp6621 said:


> There have been 2 "looking glass episodes" the last one was I think just the Looking Glass, this weeks was the season finale and was called Through the Looking Glass.
> 
> Did you watch last night?


You're referring to "The Answers" episodes. The two-hour season finale was the only one called "Through the Looking Glass."


----------



## brianp6621

devdogaz said:


> You're referring to "The Answers" episodes. The two-hour season finale was the only one called "Through the Looking Glass."


Huh, you're right. Last weeks was "greatest hits". I had it in my head that it was the looking glass.


----------



## JYoung

Martin Tupper said:


> Earlier in the season the others said that they haven't been able to communicate with the outside world since the sky turned purple (Desmond blew the hatch). So, based on what we know from this episode, Ben ordered the Looking Glass Girls to start jamming transmissions right after Desmond blew the hatch.


Probably because Ben knew _someone_ would be looking.
And if they can't lock onto Rosseau's radio transmission, it's harder to find the island.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Kate's expression when Juliet kissed Jack goodbye.

Sorry, Katie but you blew it. Your premeditated murdering self can be happy with your premeditating tri-murder boyfriend.


----------



## RunnerFL

I've read this entire thread and unless I've overlooked it I have yet to see someone post where it was Mikhail says Ben said the girls in the Looking Glass Station were supposed to be. I haven't had a chance to watch it again with CC on but I'm pretty sure he said something about Canada.

Anyone know for sure?


----------



## DancnDude

stiffi said:


> Still confused. Was this a scene in the "Looking Glass" episode? Maybe my Tivo missed some of the recording?


Just to spell it out -- 
Locke is in the grave pit (from last week after having gotten shot by Ben) and contemplates suicide. Just as he's gonna shoot himself, Walt shows up and tells him not to do it.


----------



## Skittles

RunnerFL said:


> I've read this entire thread and unless I've overlooked it I have yet to see someone post where it was Mikhail says Ben said the girls in the Looking Glass Station were supposed to be. I haven't had a chance to watch it again with CC on but I'm pretty sure he said something about Canada.
> 
> Anyone know for sure?


Yes, Mikkie mentioned that Ben had told him that the girls were "on assignment" in Canada.


----------



## DevdogAZ

tanstaafl said:


> Here's the best anyone has been able to make out of the article from what I've found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man found -------
> downtown loft
> 
> The body of J --- entham of
> New York was --- shortly after 4
> a.m. in the ---- of Grand
> Avenue
> 
> ------------------- at The
> ---------------------- loud
> ---------------------- man's loft.
> -------------------- safety, he
> ----------------------- the
> -------------------- the
> -------------- a beam in the
Click to expand...

I think there's more that's legible than that. I think it says:


> Man found -------
> downtown loft
> 
> The body of J --- entham of
> New York was --- shortly after 4
> a.m. in the ---- of Grand
> Avenue
> 
> *Ted*-------------------*a doorman* at The
> *Tower*----------------------*heard* loud
> *noises*---------------------- *victim's* loft.
> -------------------- safety, he
> ----------------------- the
> -------------------- the
> -------------- a beam in the


----------



## RunnerFL

Skittles said:


> Yes, Mikkie mentioned that Ben had told him that the girls were "on assignment" in Canada.


Ok so then that brings up the question... What's in Canada for The Others?


----------



## jubrand

RunnerFL said:


> I've read this entire thread and unless I've overlooked it I have yet to see someone post where it was Mikhail says Ben said the girls in the Looking Glass Station were supposed to be. I haven't had a chance to watch it again with CC on but I'm pretty sure he said something about Canada.
> 
> Anyone know for sure?


Yes, he said they were supposed to be in Canada on an assignment or something 
like that. Definitely Canada though.

EDIT: this thread truly moves too fast.


----------



## Fish Man

RunnerFL said:


> I've read this entire thread and unless I've overlooked it I have yet to see someone post where it was Mikhail says Ben said the girls in the Looking Glass Station were supposed to be. I haven't had a chance to watch it again with CC on but I'm pretty sure he said something about Canada.
> 
> Anyone know for sure?


I think he did say something to the effect, "I thought you were in Canada." Don't remember exactly. Gonna have to re-watch.

My thought at the time though was perhaps that Ben occasionally sends someone to do a secret long-term task on the island and tells the others he "sent them home" so that they'll retain hope that they may one day go home too. But, Ben never sends anyone home.

Perhaps the reason Ben ordered Bonnie and Greta killed is because after their stint in "The Looking Glass" was complete he planned to ruthlessly kill them anyway to retain the illusion for the others that they had gone home permanently.


----------



## DevdogAZ

RunnerFL said:


> I've read this entire thread and unless I've overlooked it I have yet to see someone post where it was Mikhail says Ben said the girls in the Looking Glass Station were supposed to be. I haven't had a chance to watch it again with CC on but I'm pretty sure he said something about Canada.
> 
> Anyone know for sure?


Post #360 (probably posted while you were typing yours).


----------



## Martin Tupper

RunnerFL said:


> Ok so then that brings up the question... What's in Canada for The Others?


Discount prescription drugs!!!


----------



## stiffi

DancnDude said:


> Just to spell it out --
> Locke is in the grave pit (from last week after having gotten shot by Ben) and contemplates suicide. Just as he's gonna shoot himself, Walt shows up and tells him not to do it.


Thank you!!! My Tivo must have cut off that part of the recording. As far as I knew, the EP ended with Locke lying there in the pit!


----------



## Skittles

Martin Tupper said:


> Discount prescription drugs!!!


Lesbian marriages, too.

And clearly, they knew how to tie a person up.


----------



## RunnerFL

devdogaz said:


> Post #360 (probably posted while you were typing yours).


Ahh, yes I see that now. I apparently did not catch the very end of your post, I apologize. I just couldn't imagine going this whole thread and not reading something about it.


----------



## Martin Tupper

stiffi said:


> Thank you!!! My Tivo must have cut off that part of the recording. As far as I knew, the EP ended with Locke lying there in the pit!


Last nights episode..."Through the Looking Glass?" You missed a LOT!


----------



## stiffi

Martin Tupper said:


> Last nights episode..."Through the Looking Glass?" You missed a LOT!


I watched last night. I just missed the "Walt scene" last week


----------



## Mike Farrington

stiffi said:


> Thank you!!! My Tivo must have cut off that part of the recording. As far as I knew, the EP ended with Locke lying there in the pit!


That is how "The Man Behind The Curtain" ended. That was two episodes ago. If your copy of the finale ended by showing Locke in the pit, you missed A LOT!!!


----------



## Fish Man

Hmm.....

Some of you helped me refresh my memory.

He said "_on assignment_ in Canada". Not just "in Canada".

Much like a couple of Others (Ethan, for one) went on "assignment" a couple of years prior to recruit Juliet.

So, we've had other prior hints that the "Others" are part of a world-wide (or at least wide-spread) organization.

Their ability to get detailed bios on the Losties being another piece of such evidence.


----------



## Mike Farrington

stiffi said:


> I watched last night. I just missed the "Walt scene" last week


The Walt scene was last NIGHT not last WEEK.


----------



## Martin Tupper

stiffi said:


> I watched last night. I just missed the "Walt scene" last week


The Walt scene _was _last night.


----------



## JYoung

stiffi said:


> I watched last night. I just missed the "Walt scene" last week


You do know that it was a *two hour* episode plus a repeat of "The Answers" before it?

It sounds to me like you missed a good 25-30% of the episode.


----------



## cwoody222

rlc1 said:


> What I can't fit into all this is why the Looking Glass station would receive a communication from Penny Whitmore (Desmond's girlfriend) once Charlie pushed the button.....I know she is looking for Desmond, but....I'm just lost. Pun intended.


Charlie turned off what was "jamming" transmissions to and from the island. Obviously Penny's group was sending out a beacon or something that was picked up the moment the jamming was stopped.



Fish Man said:


> Because any woman becoming pregnant while on the island dies before carrying the baby to term (and apparently before the baby could survive outside the womb).
> 
> That's the *main problem* Ben's people are apparently trying to solve. That's why they brought Juliet to the island; to determine why this is so, and to try to find a solution.
> 
> This means Sun is doomed unless she can get off the island or a solution can be found to this problem.
> 
> Women who are pregnant already when they come to the island are OK. Examples are Danielle and Claire.


This is probably way obvious to everyone but me but I just sorta put it together. Seems to me that the fact that new babies can't be born on the island is the island's way of protecting itself against being colonized.

Obviously people want to live there... because of it's magical healing powers. But since you can't propagate your civilization without difficulty (bring in new generations from the mainland) it keeps the island pure and without humans trompin' around it.


----------



## hefe

stiffi said:


> Still confused. Was this a scene in the "Looking Glass" episode?


Indeed.


----------



## ireland967

Fish Man said:


> Hmm.....
> 
> Some of you helped me refresh my memory.
> 
> He said "_on assignment_ in Canada". Not just "in Canada".
> 
> Much like a couple of Others (Ethan, for one) went on "assignment" a couple of years prior to recruit Juliet.
> 
> So, we've had other prior hints that the "Others" are part of a world-wide (or at least wide-spread) organization.
> 
> Their ability to get detailed bios on the Losties being another piece of such evidence.


Another bit is the guy who shot the video of Juliet's sister with her child. Ben mentioned his name as well.


----------



## flyersfan

stiffi said:


> I watched last night. I just missed the "Walt scene" last week


I don't mean to sound rude but you're very confused and maybe you need to watch both last week's and last night's episode again. 

Walt did not show up last week. He showed up this week right before Locke was ready to take himself out. John thought he'd lost his legs again and couldn't take it - Walt told him to get up out the ditch.

We laughed out loud when we saw how much the actor had grown in a year. I think it'll be a lot of fun to see how that's written into the story.


----------



## TheMerk

stiffi said:


> I watched last night. I just missed the "Walt scene" last week


Huh? The Walt scene was this week. On the season finale. "Through the Looking Glass"

I think that you've altered your timeline a bit...


----------



## sushikitten

Mike Farrington said:


> No kidding. I love how they went from his overgrown beard to showing Jack on the island. Look at Jack's beard stubble, he has grey stubble. Are we to assume that Jack has let himself go as much as he has, but still worries about coloring his beard?


I wondered about the beard color, too - which is why I thought it was a flashback. And he looked reminiscent of a returning Jordan Collier (4400), although not quite as scruffy.


----------



## stiffi

Martin Tupper said:


> The Walt scene _was _last night.


Oh, well then chalk it up to a bad Tivo recording. Darn!


----------



## Bananfish

Anyone else think Mikhail might be a robot (or maybe a borg or perhaps even an alien)? You just can't survive all the things this guy has survived and still be human.


----------



## Sirius Black

The finale is on iTunes now and whether by accident or not, the episode is listed as "Through a Looking Glass" rather than "Through The Looking Glass". Signifigance?


----------



## flyersfan

EW.com has an interview with Dominic Monaghan. http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20040051,00.html

The key sequence is this:
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: How long have you known about Charlie's death, and what was your reaction to that plot twist?
DOMINIC MONAGHAN: By the time they got around to actually telling me  which was four months after I knew about the storyline we were exploring  it was probably one of relief more than anything else.

and further down...

DOMINIC MONAGHAN: ...He thinks he has beaten fate, and then the wheels come into motion and fate, as usual, wins the day. Once Charlie realizes that that's the case, he totally makes his peace with it. He's not scared. He's not panicked. He knows it's supposed to happen. He has to get a message across to Desmond before he dies, which he does, and then in the way that you can be okay with drowning, Charlie was.

So before anyone else jumps in with "he might've swum out after we cut away", please drop it.


----------



## stiffi

JYoung said:


> You do know that it was a *two hour* episode plus a repeat of "The Answers" before it?
> 
> It sounds to me like you missed a good 25-30% of the episode.


I saw all of last week's episode on ABC.com

My recording last night began with Jack on an Airplane. Now that you mention it, it is weird that I never saw the intro with the LOST logo floating around the screen and the trippy horn music.

Sounds like my Tivo (HR10-250) is starting to fail me. Oddly enough, I'm having it replaced on Sunday with a Directv box. Do you think IT KNOWS? Or maybe the Island has sabotaged it as revenge for me replacing it?


----------



## Martin Tupper

stiffi said:


> I saw all of last week's episode on ABC.com
> 
> My recording last night began with Jack on an Airplane. Now that you mention it, it is weird that I never saw the intro with the LOST logo floating around the screen and the trippy horn music.
> 
> Sounds like my Tivo (HR10-250) is starting to fail me. Oddly enough, I'm having it replaced on Sunday with a Directv box. Do you think IT KNOWS? Or maybe the Island has sabotaged it as revenge for me replacing it?


Jack on an airplane? Drinking heavily? The flight attendant cuts him off and tosses a newspaper at him?

That _was_ the beginning.


----------



## RunnerFL

stiffi said:


> My recording last night began with Jack on an Airplane.


Which is how the episode started.


----------



## getbak

stiffi said:


> My recording last night began with Jack on an Airplane. Now that you mention it, it is weird that I never saw the intro with the LOST logo floating around the screen and the trippy horn music.


That's how last night's episode began. Jack was on the plane and asked the flight attendant for another drink, then saw the newspaper report about the dead man. Walt appeared to Locke as Locke was handling the gun in the pit, which was right at the end of the first hour (when these episodes are split for syndication, that will be the likely conclusion of the first half of the two parter). The episode ended with Jack and Kate talking at the end of the runway at the airport.

If you saw all that, you saw the whole episode. If not, you missed a lot.


----------



## scottykempf

flyersfan said:


> EW.com has an interview with Dominic Monaghan. http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20040051,00.html
> 
> The key sequence is this:
> ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: How long have you known about Charlie's death, and what was your reaction to that plot twist?
> DOMINIC MONAGHAN: By the time they got around to actually telling me  which was four months after I knew about the storyline we were exploring  it was probably one of relief more than anything else.
> 
> and further down...
> 
> DOMINIC MONAGHAN: ...He thinks he has beaten fate, and then the wheels come into motion and fate, as usual, wins the day. Once Charlie realizes that that's the case, he totally makes his peace with it. He's not scared. He's not panicked. He knows it's supposed to happen. He has to get a message across to Desmond before he dies, which he does, and then in the way that you can be okay with drowning, Charlie was.
> 
> So before anyone else jumps in with "he might've swum out after we cut away", please drop it.


Doesnt prove anything. The writers dont tell the actors everything that is going to happen to keep the surprises secret. Plus, this being Lost, maybe he is dead for now, but next season when they need to throw in a twist, they will bring him back from the dead. Its not like no TV show has ever done that before!!! LOL


----------



## stiffi

getbak said:


> That's how last night's episode began. Jack was on the plane and asked the flight attendant for another drink, then saw the newspaper report about the dead man. Walt appeared to Locke as Locke was handling the gun in the pit, which was right at the end of the first hour (when these episodes are split for syndication, that will be the likely conclusion of the first half of the two parter). The episode ended with Jack and Kate talking at the end of the runway at the airport.
> 
> If you saw all that, you saw the whole episode. If not, you missed a lot.


This just gets weirder and weirder. I saw all the stopping points you mention, but I never saw Locke until the very last scene. It's like my Tivo just cut out a scene. Weird.


----------



## lonwolf615

Well, read through the whole thread and didn't see this idea. Halfbaked as it is, here's my theory: 
Since there seemed many ways Charlie could save himself, his demise has been said to be him accepting his destiny. And thats definately how it looked, on the surface. But what if there is no destiny? Just countless number of timelines, with none being more "right" than any others? What we seen last night of Jack and Kate in the future/present is what happens if charlie dies..and its clearly not a happy outcome. Further, by dying, maybe charlie doesn't just affect the future part of the timeline-changes happen in both directions, so Jack's father could be alive in this version...
The reason charlie thought he had to die was it led to clair being picked up by a helocopter. It was assumed that was a good thing. We now have clues that maybe it isn't. So, we've been shown what happens if he dies. What about next season starts with a different version of the end in the looking glass, one in which he lives? It would explain the awkward way they portrayed his death-they had to show him dying but also leave room for plenty of variations to that outcome so they could go back... 
Ah man, my head hurts...


----------



## Mike Farrington

scottykempf said:


> Doesnt prove anything. The writers dont tell the actors everything that is going to happen to keep the surprises secret. Plus, this being Lost, maybe he is dead for now, but next season when they need to throw in a twist, they will bring him back from the dead. Its not like no TV show has ever done that before!!! LOL


But they're generally good about letting their actors know whether or not they should start looking for a new job.


----------



## rlc1

stiffi said:


> This just gets weirder and weirder. I saw all the stopping points you mention, but I never saw Locke until the very last scene. It's like my Tivo just cut out a scene. Weird.


OK, OK - not to be rude but I think we get it, you didn't see the whole episode.


----------



## hefe

stiffi said:


> I saw all of last week's episode on ABC.com
> 
> My recording last night began with Jack on an Airplane. Now that you mention it, it is weird that I never saw the intro with the LOST logo floating around the screen and the trippy horn music.


After the Jack flash-forward, they cut to the beach. When everyone leaves the beach for the radio tower, and leaves Sayid, Bernard and Jin behind with their guns, that's when we get the intro and trippy music.


----------



## Mike Farrington

stiffi said:


> This just gets weirder and weirder. I saw all the stopping points you mention, but I never saw Locke until the very last scene. It's like my Tivo just cut out a scene. Weird.


I'm not positive, but I think Locke in the pit with Walt above was just after returning from a commercial break. Your local affiliate must have messed up and shown one too many local ads.


----------



## wmcbrine

jubrand said:


> Do we know which characters are from LA to begin with? The person died in NYC, but the funeral was in LA. So clearly there's a reason to ship the body all the way back to LA.


The newspaper notice apparently says the person was _from_ NYC, not that they died there.

Of course, the notice and the funeral could also be for two different people.


----------



## Fish Man

flyersfan,

*READ THE SPOILER'S REQUIREMENTS OF THIS FORUM!!!*

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=271608

Specifically:


> Previews of Next Week and other spoilers:
> Anything shown on the previews of next week is considered a spoiler on this forum, and must be tagged as such, using spoiler tags. (See below for instructions.) *Any spoiler information from other sources, such as articles, websites, webisodes, personal friendships with producers, etc., must also be tagged.*


[Emphasis added.]

Then, edit your post accordingly.

If you don't do so fairly quickly, a moderator will simply delete it, mark my words!


----------



## scottykempf

Mike Farrington said:


> But they're generally good about letting their actors know whether or not they should start looking for a new job.


They could bring him back for 1, or a few episodes and it wouldnt take that much time for Dominic to do it.


----------



## wmcbrine

flyersfan said:


> So before anyone else jumps in with "he might've swum out after we cut away", please drop it.


But, but... where's his speeding ticket?


----------



## ironchef

flyersfan said:


> EW.com has an interview with Dominic Monaghan. http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20040051,00.html
> 
> The key sequence is this:
> ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: How long have you known about Charlie's death, and what was your reaction to that plot twist?
> DOMINIC MONAGHAN: By the time they got around to actually telling me - which was four months after I knew about the storyline we were exploring - it was probably one of relief more than anything else.
> 
> and further down...
> 
> DOMINIC MONAGHAN: ...He thinks he has beaten fate, and then the wheels come into motion and fate, as usual, wins the day. Once Charlie realizes that that's the case, he totally makes his peace with it. He's not scared. He's not panicked. He knows it's supposed to happen. He has to get a message across to Desmond before he dies, which he does, and then in the way that you can be okay with drowning, Charlie was.
> 
> So before anyone else jumps in with "he might've swum out after we cut away", please drop it.


Sure, because the producers wouldn't do anything to mislead us.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Fish Man said:


> flyersfan,
> 
> *READ THE SPOILER'S REQUIREMENTS OF THIS FORUM!!!*
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=271608
> 
> Specifically:
> 
> [Emphasis added.]
> 
> Then, edit your post accordingly.
> 
> If you don't do so fairly quickly, a moderator will simply delete it, mark my words!


But in this case, there are no spoilers, since it only talks about stuff that happened in this episode, not future episodes.


----------



## RunnerFL

Fish Man said:


> flyersfan,
> 
> *READ THE SPOILER'S REQUIREMENTS OF THIS FORUM!!!*
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=271608
> 
> Specifically:
> 
> [Emphasis added.]
> 
> Then, edit your post accordingly.
> 
> If you don't do so fairly quickly, a moderator will simply delete it, mark my words!


I don't think what he posted is a spoiler since Charlie died in the episode. He's not giving anything away since there is no "next week's episode". And Charlie's death clearly wasn't in a preview for next week.


----------



## hefe

Sirius Black said:


> It's hard to even talk about this without violating the spoiler requirements... so I'll spoilerize my statement...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the person who had the problem was taking issue with the fact that the article and the quoted passage both confirm that Charlie is in fact dead. This is not 100% certain from the ending the episode but if you read the article, you find that Dominic is in fact no longer on the show based on very clear statements from both Dominic and the producers.


Yes, that's it.

Oh, and NOT Purgatory.


----------



## Family

Charlie will be on probably as much as before after a hiatus of a year or so. The alternative timeline or something will bring him back in some way. They've taken a character who people wanted dead to a hero who became somewhat likeable towards the end. 

People won't moan when he's back on now either.


----------



## Fish Man

Sirius Black said:


> It's hard to even talk about this without violating the spoiler requirements... so I'll spoilerize my statement...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the person who had the problem was taking issue with the fact that the article and the quoted passage both confirm that Charlie is in fact dead. This is not 100% certain from the ending the episode but if you read the article, you find that Dominic is in fact no longer on the show based on very clear statements from both Dominic and the producers.


Correct.

Clear violation of the forum's spoiler rules, IMHO, for exactly that reason.

(Should I have spoilerized that?)


----------



## Sirius Black

I deleted my post, which has been quoted twice now, because what I said had already been covered in several posts before I clicked "Post Reply". No need to smeek on something like this.


----------



## ironchef

A few questions - 

Is "not Penny's boat" the same as "not Penny's ship"?

Are only two of us wondering about "the temple"?

If Mikhail can pretty much shrug off anything up to comlete dismemberment, what's up with his eye? And why did he need a whole scuba mask, couldn't he have saved a few bucks and just bought half of one?

Lock two girls up in an underwater station for a long time and their first reaction when Charlie arrives is to beat the cr*p out of him? Ben chose these two for compatability I think...

Charlie is dead, but people are revived all the time. Once Desmond has on scuba gear he can open the door (it opens out) flood the station and drag him to the surface. Or alternatively he gets sucked out and floats to the surface.

Ben says they're the "good guys", but doesn't everyone rationalize themselves to that?

Naomi may not have known what side she was on, just a pawn in the larger game. Juliet does know, but nobody's asking her any pointed questions, why not?

How many of us would have put a bullet through Ben's eye before he even opened his mouth? If not that wouldn't you at least gag him when you tie him up?

Inquiring minds want to know....


----------



## scottykempf

ironchef said:


> How many of us would have put a bullet through Ben's eye before he even opened his mouth? If not that wouldn't you at least gag him when you tie him up?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know....


Yes, I was thinking "Don't listen to him, Jack, don't let him talk, he's going to manipulate you, don listen to the devil!!!" LOL


----------



## Sirius Black

ironchef said:


> Ben says they're the "good guys", but doesn't everyone rationalize themselves to that?


Good is a point of view. It's odd that this keeps surfacing. That show on Mondays with all those heroic type people has a similar arc later in the season.


----------



## hefe

ironchef said:


> Charlie is dead, but people are revived all the time.


Not only that, Charlie has been dead before. He should be used to it.


----------



## GDG76

ironchef said:


> Are only two of us wondering about "the temple"?


I wondered about that too - I assume it is related to the four toe statue and they will explain that next season.


----------



## RunnerFL

ironchef said:


> Charlie is dead, but people are revived all the time. Once Desmond has on scuba gear he can open the door (it opens out) flood the station and drag him to the surface. Or alternatively he gets sucked out and floats to the surface.


If Desmond could just open the door why didn't he do that instead of trying to break the glass with a fire extinguisher? Probably because Charlie locked it and that would also keep him from getting into it now even with scuba gear.

Charlie can't get sucked out and float to the surface, he's bigger than the porthole!

He's dead folks, face it.


----------



## betts4

ironchef said:


> A few questions -
> 
> Are only two of us wondering about "the temple"?


Am I one of those two? I was wondering - why would they just get up and leave the compound.



ironchef said:


> Lock two girls up in an underwater station for a long time and their first reaction when Charlie arrives is to beat the cr*p out of him? Ben chose these two for compatability I think...


Reading this made me smile....



ironchef said:


> Charlie is dead, but people are revived all the time. Once Desmond has on scuba gear he can open the door (it opens out) flood the station and drag him to the surface. Or alternatively he gets sucked out and floats to the surface.


As in the Abyss?



ironchef said:


> Ben says they're the "good guys", but doesn't everyone rationalize themselves to that?
> 
> Naomi may not have known what side she was on, just a pawn in the larger game. Juliet does know, but nobody's asking her any pointed questions, why not?
> 
> How many of us would have put a bullet through Ben's eye before he even opened his mouth? If not that wouldn't you at least gag him when you tie him up?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know....


All very good points!


----------



## JYoung

ironchef said:


> A few questions -
> 
> Is "not Penny's boat" the same as "not Penny's ship"?


Yes



ironchef said:


> Are only two of us wondering about "the temple"?


No.



ironchef said:


> If Mikhail can pretty much shrug off anything up to comlete dismemberment, what's up with his eye? And why did he need a whole scuba mask, couldn't he have saved a few bucks and just bought half of one?


He was in a hurry.



ironchef said:


> Lock two girls up in an underwater station for a long time and their first reaction when Charlie arrives is to beat the cr*p out of him? Ben chose these two for compatability I think...


Or they're really into S&M......



ironchef said:


> Charlie is dead, but people are revived all the time. Once Desmond has on scuba gear he can open the door (it opens out) flood the station and drag him to the surface. Or alternatively he gets sucked out and floats to the surface.


Charlie's already been revived once. Twice might be pushing it.



ironchef said:


> Ben says they're the "good guys", but doesn't everyone rationalize themselves to that?


Of course Ben does. But we also know he's twisted.



ironchef said:


> Naomi may not have known what side she was on, just a pawn in the larger game. Juliet does know, but nobody's asking her any pointed questions, why not?


About what?
It seems to me she's been talking to Jack.



ironchef said:


> How many of us would have put a bullet through Ben's eye before he even opened his mouth? If not that wouldn't you at least gag him when you tie him up?


Then how would Jack be able to rub their rescue in his face?


----------



## Deffdino

Jumping ahead of a lot of pages....

Hurley's funeral? Bad luck and all!! Screen caps of the newspaper clippings appear to say 'loud', 'beam' and 'loft'. Sorry for any smeeks.


----------



## ironchef

JYoung said:


> Then how would Jack be able to rub their rescue in his face?


This is akin to the overly complex scenarios used to kill James Bond by all the bad guys in the movies. In real life you do it the Soprano's way, one through the melon, quick and sure.


----------



## ironchef

betts4 said:


> Am I one of those two? I was wondering - why would they just get up and leave the compound.


And why wouldn't you move into the compound if you were a bunch of castaways living on a beach? Hot showers, refrigerators, flush toilets??? No thanks, I'll stay down here at the beach with sand in my crack....


----------



## Fish Man

Deffdino said:


> Jumping ahead of a lot of pages....
> 
> Hurley's funeral? Bad luck and all!! Screen caps of the newspaper clippings appear to say 'loud', 'beam' and 'loft'. Sorry for any smeeks.


While it may simply be a production error, several people have commented that the casket looked awfully small for any adult.

If it *wasn't* a production error, that rules Hurley right out!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

ironchef said:


> This is akin to the overly complex scenarios used to kill James Bond by all the bad guys in the movies. In real life you do it the Soprano's way, one through the melon, quick and sure.


...although in the case of Ben and Jack, it's one of the very few times I've seen that plot device used where it rang emotionally true to the characters. I believe Jack would do that, at least to Ben.


Fish Man said:


> While it may simply be a production error, several people have commented that the casket looked awfully small for any adult.
> 
> If it *wasn't* a production error, that rules Hurley right out!


Depends on how much of him is left...


----------



## TheMerk

Deffdino said:


> Hurley's funeral?


We're going to need a bigger _box_.


----------



## ironchef

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...although in the case of Ben and Jack, it's one of the very few times I've seen that plot device used where it rang emotionally true to the characters. I believe Jack would do that, at least to Ben.
> 
> Depends on how much of him is left...


But Ben has lied and manipulated everyone around him at practically every opportunity, best to be rid of him. If not Jack then surely Rousseau's trigger finger would be spasming.


----------



## Fish Man

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But in this case, there are no spoilers, since it only talks about stuff that happened in this episode, not future episodes.


No.

It specifies concretely an explanation that the episode left ambiguous (deliberately so, by my reading).


----------



## dtle

ironchef said:


> A few questions -
> 
> Is "not Penny's boat" the same as "not Penny's ship"?


I think the English like to say "boat" more than "ship". Kinda like "chips", "chemist", "flat", "arse", etc.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Fish Man said:


> No.
> 
> It specifies concretely an explanation that the episode left ambiguous (deliberately so, by my reading).


Well, there wasn't a shred of doubt in my mind that Charlie is dead. He was floating blissfully in the middle of the room, having already run out of air. There's no way he could have made it to the surface, and he wasn't even trying.

Now, on the Island, dead doesn't always mean dead, so it's unclear as to what his being dead means. But the original post you were objecting to didn't address that; it was only people complaining about the post who mentioned further details from the linked article that would constitute spoilers.


----------



## jkeegan

Ok so even though we all know it's a KRZR Jack had, and any mystery about it (that we might have felt mid-episode) is gone now, I figured I'd post pictures anyway, since I'm here at work and can take them.

Here are pictures of the Sprint version of the Motorola KRZR V3m from the side, where you can see the definitive red jewel-like thing in the silver swivel (click to enlarge):

(click on the picture to see a larger version)


(click on the picture to see a larger version)


(click on the picture to see a larger version)


(click on the picture to see a larger version)


(click on the picture to see a larger version)


----------



## verdugan

betts4 said:


> And best line
> 
> Rose saying "Jack, if you say Live together Die alone, I'm going to punch you in your face"


Best line was Jack telling Kate that he loved her.


----------



## wprager

Fish Man said:


> flyersfan,
> 
> *READ THE SPOILER'S REQUIREMENTS OF THIS FORUM!!!*
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=271608
> 
> Specifically:
> 
> [Emphasis added.]
> 
> Then, edit your post accordingly.
> 
> If you don't do so fairly quickly, a moderator will simply delete it, mark my words!


A character is shown to die in the episode; an interview with the actor portraying the character supports this version of the events -- i.e. that the character perished.

Please, what part of this is spoiler?

P.S. Note that I am using very generic terms -- character, actor.


----------



## wprager

RunnerFL said:


> If Charlie had not closed the door prior to the grenade going off the sudden loss in pressure would have severely de-stabilized the moon pool and the whole station would have flooded too fast.


I don't understand. Sudden loss of pressure would result if the air inside the station was suddenly evacuated through that little portal. As air was being pushed out the water level would rise, and once it got above the top of the porthole it would stop. There would still be plenty of air inside the station, they could put the SCUBA gear on and swim away.

Eh, whatever. I'm almost willing to give the writers a mulligan on this one: the intent is Charlie makes peace with his past and dies a hero, saving the woman he loves. ... except that he now knows that Naomi is lying, and his first thought should be that she is part of The Others. Clearly Claire is not safe, even if Desmond says she is. Since it would be very simple for him to do so, wouldn't he stick around at least long-enough to ensure that Claire will be safe?


----------



## Martin Tupper

wprager said:


> A character is shown to die in the episode; an interview with the actor portraying the character supports this version of the events -- i.e. that the character perished.
> 
> Please, what part of this is spoiler?
> 
> P.S. Note that I am using very generic terms -- character, actor.


Case in point, two weeks ago, the episode "Man Behind the Curtain" ends with Locke being shot point blank it the gut, and being left for dead in a pit in the middle of the jungle, and no one but the shooter knows where he is. Cut forward 2 weeks, and Locke has been mysteriously healed by the power of the island.

Mikhail has cheated death on multiple occasions.

Charlie himself has been hanged from a tree.

No one is dead in Lost until they are declared dead...and even then there's wiggle-room. Outside reports of contract renewal (or lack thereof) are spoilers, pure and simple.


----------



## markz

hefe said:


> Not only that, Charlie has been dead before. He should be used to it.


But he got better!

And as for the theory that it was Hurley's funeral...

I don't buy it. Everyone would go to Hurley's funeral. Heck, I'd go to Hurley's funeral!

Jack wouldn't contemplate suicide over Hurley's death, and Kate wouldn't think ambivalently about why she would go to his funeral.


----------



## ironchef

Martin Tupper said:


> Case in point, two weeks ago, the episode "Man Behind the Curtain" ends with Locke being shot point blank it the gut, and being left for dead in a pit in the middle of the jungle, and no one but the shooter knows where he is. Cut forward 2 weeks, and Locke has been mysteriously healed by the power of the island.
> 
> Mikhail has cheated death on multiple occasions.
> 
> Charlie himself has been hanged from a tree.
> 
> No one is dead in Lost until they are declared dead...and even then there's wiggle-room. Outside reports of contract renewal (or lack thereof) are spoilers, pure and simple.


But the inconsistency is that Ben still shot Locke and expected him to die, as well as having other people killed.


----------



## Shakhari

As Locke said to Paolo, "Nothing stays buried on this island."

I really don't get the fuss about the fertility problem. Women who get pregnant on the island die? Um, hello, you had a submarine and were able to get back and forth from the island to the real world. So, go to Portland, have some fun, get knocked up, come home preggers, have your kid. 

Add me to the list of those who think the woman and kid that Jack pulled from the car were Juliet's sister and her son.


----------



## Fish Man

wprager said:


> A character is shown to die in the episode; an interview with the actor portraying the character supports this version of the events -- i.e. that the character perished.
> 
> Please, what part of this is spoiler?
> 
> P.S. Note that I am using very generic terms -- character, actor.


I guess I need to quote the rules again:



> Previews of Next Week and other spoilers:
> Anything shown on the previews of next week is considered a spoiler on this forum, and must be tagged as such, using spoiler tags. (See below for instructions.) *Any spoiler information from other sources, such as articles, websites, webisodes, personal friendships with producers, etc., must also be tagged.*


What part of *"other sources, such as articles..."* don't you understand?

Mikail was shot through the heart with a harpoon and didn't die.

Earlier, blood gushed out of his ears and he was fine a day or two later.

Charlie was "hung" and didn't die.

Locke was shot in the belly, left in a pit of rotting corpses, bleeding profusely, and didn't die.

Locke, Charlie, Eko, and Desmond were at or near "ground zero" of an "implosion" that left a 50 foot deep crater in the ground and didn't die (at least from the implosion, Eko died later).

There are many other examples.

In this episode, we see Charlie in a room filling up with water. With a minor suspension of disbelief (for Lost, anyway) we can easily come up with scenarios where he might survive this.

Then you post from an *article* (see rules quote above):



Spoiler



Confirmation from the actor and program producers that Charlie is, in fact, dead.



I've never seen a clearer and more obvious violation of the rule quoted above.

Are you flaunting the rules just to prove how you're more important than everyone else on this forum? Or, do you really not see how this clearly fits the rule above?


----------



## rondotcom

markz said:


> I'll have to go back and rewatch that! Nice clue if true!


I didn't check. If the reeks of smeek I apologize. Wasn't the song Charlie singing Driveshaft's big hit, the one the band did the vdeo of? Maybe he was also singing anoher song... I don't remember.


----------



## ironchef

Shakhari said:


> As Locke said to Paolo, "Nothing stays buried on this island."
> 
> I really don't get the fuss about the fertility problem. Women who get pregnant on the island die? Um, hello, you had a submarine and were able to get back and forth from the island to the real world. So, go to Portland, have some fun, get knocked up, come home preggers, have your kid.
> 
> Add me to the list of those who think the woman and kid that Jack pulled from the car were Juliet's sister and her son.


There's no evidence Ben ever let anyone leave the island, or for that matter that it is possible to leave the island. The only suggestion was Ethan recruiting Juliet, but he may not have been to the island himself at that point. Drugging Juliet before she was shipped there suggests the trip is not so simple.


----------



## bryan314

After 15 pages of speculation and such I'm surprised no one brought up the arctic scene from waaaaay back when the hatch blew up with the actors who play Jack and Sawyer playing characters working for Penny. Maybe they were Jack and Sawyer and it took place 'after' the flash forward.


----------



## getbak

bryan314 said:


> After 15 pages of speculation and such I'm surprised no one brought up the arctic scene from waaaaay back when the hatch blew up with the actors who play Jack and Sawyer playing characters working for Penny. Maybe they were Jack and Sawyer and it took place 'after' the flash forward.


It wasn't the actors who play Jack and Sawyer.

Len Cordova: http://imdb.com/name/nm0502653/
Alex Petrovitch: http://imdb.com/name/nm1763768/


----------



## Fish Man

ironchef said:


> But the inconsistency is that Ben still shot Locke and expected him to die, as well as having other people killed.


Either I totally misunderstand what you are saying here or you and Martin Tupper (to whom you are replying) are arguing exactly the same side.

To wit: Characters who are "clearly killed" on Lost often turn out not to be dead.


----------



## markz

rondotcom said:


> I didn't check. If the reeks of smeek I apologize. Wasn't the song Charlie singing Driveshaft's big hit, the one the band did the vdeo of? Maybe he was also singing anoher song... I don't remember.


See post # 307


----------



## jkeegan

I'm on page 8 out of 12 (thread keeps growing!)..

So, what's kinda interesting to me is that we've just seen what's going to happen.. Not what _might_ happen, but what's _going_ to happen..

It's one thing if we see Desmond witness a flash of future events, because he can change them.. He saved Charlie several times.

..but here, the only people that saw this future was(were?) us, the audience. We're not giving the characters new information, so nothing will change. Plus, its' been laid out to us as fact - they showed it to us.. This is what happens.

Interesting that some of the future that we see is trust-able, and that some of it isn't.

(unless it's the present, and the island is now all the past, but the anagram of the funeral place seems planted to answer that question for us now, rather than 9 months from now)

9 months. Nice touch.


----------



## jkeegan

mqpickles said:


> On another note, loved the mother and child reunion, especially Ben's matter-of-fact introduction.


..and it was followed up by a great line.. She told her daughter something like "now, can you help me tie him up?".


----------



## Fish Man

jkeegan said:


> It's one thing if we see Desmond witness a flash of future events, because he can change them.. He saved Charlie several times.
> 
> ..but here, the only people that saw this future was(were?) us, the audience. We're not giving the characters new information, so nothing will change. Plus, its' been laid out to us as fact - they showed it to us.. This is what happens.


Is it?

Or are the writers simply making us, the audience, into a "Desmond", seeing a *possible* future?

I don't have a strong opinion about this one way or the other. Just playing devil's advocate! (fun, huh?)


----------



## jkeegan

bpurcell said:


> First, my guess after the first scene of Jack in the plane with the long beard was that this was a flash forward. I also couldn't think of a time frame between his divorce and his father's death where he could be hooked on Oxycontin and Suicidal. His talking about his dad through me off in the middle, but then the scene of him with the maps confirmed my original belief.


Oh yeah! The maps!!

I remember thinking out loud "maps.. that's interesting.. why does he have maps??", having got myself back into thinking this was pre-crash.

Nice touches in there. I think the beard gave it away a bit too much though - if they hadn't done that, I'd have probably been completely absolutely floored, instead of saying "oh, I *was* right initially - these are flash forwards. hmm".


----------



## jkeegan

mask2343 said:


> Mikhail:
> Obviously Mikhail is of the same origin as the other "Other" guy who seems to not age (or die?)


Obviously? Based on what?


----------



## Martin Tupper

ironchef said:


> There's no evidence Ben ever let anyone leave the island, or for that matter that it is possible to leave the island. The only suggestion was Ethan recruiting Juliet, but he may not have been to the island himself at that point. Drugging Juliet before she was shipped there suggests the trip is not so simple.


Richard left the island to recruit Juliet and went back.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Fish Man said:


> I guess I need to quote the rules again:
> 
> What part of *"other sources, such as articles..."* don't you understand?
> 
> Mikail was shot through the heart with a harpoon and didn't die.
> 
> Earlier, blood gushed out of his ears and he was fine a day or two later.
> 
> Charlie was "hung" and didn't die.
> 
> Locke was shot in the belly, left in a pit of rotting corpses, bleeding profusely, and didn't die.
> 
> Locke, Charlie, Eko, and Desmond were at or near "ground zero" of an "implosion" that left a 50 foot deep crater in the ground and didn't die (at least from the implosion, Eko died later).
> 
> There are many other examples.
> 
> In this episode, we see Charlie in a room filling up with water. With a minor suspension of disbelief (for Lost, anyway) we can easily come up with scenarios where he might survive this.
> 
> Then you post from an *article* (see rules quote above):
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Confirmation from the actor and program producers that Charlie is, in fact, dead.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never seen a clearer and more obvious violation of the rule quoted above.
> 
> Are you flaunting the rules just to prove how you're more important than everyone else on this forum? Or, do you really not see how this clearly fits the rule above?


I think the difference between this situation and all the others you cite is that in this instance, we (and the character) knew this action was going to result in his death and he was prepared for it. It wasn't a sudden thing like all of those others. The last dozen episodes have been foreshadowing Charlie's death, and the fact that it finally happened shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.


----------



## Fish Man

Martin Tupper said:


> Richard left the island to recruit Juliet and went back.


Dialog between Ethan and Juliet strongly implied that he (Ethan) was not going to the island for the first time either. In fact, my take was that Richard and Ethan traveled off the island *together* to recruit Juliet.

Having said all this, it sort of looks to me like Ben would only allow his very most trusted people leave the island. People who Ben was positive would come back, and not reveal anything to people in the outside world about the island.


----------



## jubrand

wmcbrine said:


> The newspaper notice apparently says the person was _from_ NYC, not that they died there.
> 
> Of course, the notice and the funeral could also be for two different people.


Ah, you're right. So which of our characters are from New York? Michael is one. Locke has no connection to New York, and Ben doesn't seem like he does either.


----------



## RunnerFL

wprager said:


> I don't understand. Sudden loss of pressure would result if the air inside the station was suddenly evacuated through that little portal. As air was being pushed out the water level would rise, and once it got above the top of the porthole it would stop. There would still be plenty of air inside the station, they could put the SCUBA gear on and swim away.


If the moon pool de-stabilized it wouldn't be a gradual influx of water. The station would fill up almost instantly. There is no way that Desmond and Charlie could fight the amount of water and pressure flowing in. It would have tossed them around like toys inside the station.


----------



## DevdogAZ

jubrand said:


> Ah, you're right. So which of our characters are from New York? Michael is one. Locke has no connection to New York, and Ben doesn't seem like he does either.


As has been stated, Rose and Bernard are also from NY, but it's much more likely that the funeral was for a character we haven't met yet.


----------



## jkeegan

durl said:


> And we talk about the flashbacks all the time, but should we now wonder if there have been "flash-forwards" in previous episodes?


Oh man! Imagine how cool that'd be, if we find a "flashback" in a previous episode that fits more as a forward? Damn, there's gonna be a lot of rewatching..


----------



## ironchef

Fish Man said:


> Either I totally misunderstand what you are saying here or you and Martin Tupper (to whom you are replying) are arguing exactly the same side.
> 
> To wit: Characters who are "clearly killed" on Lost often turn out not to be dead.


I was just pointing out that even people who have been there a long time do still believe it is possible to kill someone, so there is some limit to what the island will do.

Barring accident or foul play it may be possible to live a long time, but Ben's tumor says not forever.

The flip side seems to be it's hard to keep someone dead.


----------



## ironchef

Martin Tupper said:


> Richard left the island to recruit Juliet and went back.


Do we know he was on the island previously?


----------



## DevdogAZ

ironchef said:


> Do we know he was on the island previously?


Ben first met Richard on the island when Ben was still a little kid.


----------



## GDG76

ironchef said:


> Do we know he was on the island previously?


Um, he found Ben in the woods when he was 12, so I'd say so. Unless of course that was the smoke monster, but I doubt it.


----------



## Fish Man

devdogaz said:


> I think the difference between this situation and all the others you cite is that in this instance, we (and the character) knew this action was going to result in his death and he was prepared for it. It wasn't a sudden thing like all of those others. The last dozen episodes have been foreshadowing Charlie's death, and the fact that it finally happened shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.


I most strongly disagree.

I'm of the strong opinion that *several* other "deaths" that turned out not to be (namely, all the ones I cited) were MUCH, MUCH more "certain" than Charlie's death here, at the time.

Mickael being thrown through the sonic fence was clear, and yet he wasn't dead. Ditto the harpoon through his heart.

Last season, Desmond turned that key at ground zero of an explosion that left a crater like a massive bomb would leave -- and survived.

Charlie was prepared for death when he dove in. He expected "The Looking Glass" to be flooded.

When it wasn't, Charlie immediately decided that perhaps he *didn't* have to die. Fate had been cheated once again.

Perhaps he could continue to cheat fate!

We leave the scene with Charlie still, maybe, having time to swim out the porthole. (Suspension of disbelief required regarding "The Bends", etc. but that's far less a suspension than some of the other "deaths" have required on this show.)


----------



## swinca

Geeze. I had given up on Lost. After last night I'm all sucked in again.


----------



## ironchef

devdogaz said:


> Ben first met Richard on the island when Ben was still a little kid.


Okay, it's getting to dense to keep track of on my own. I do suspect there has been little trafic with the outside world since Ben did his takeover. How would you hide the fact that all of the people were killed? Juliet has been there how many years? She arrived after the coup, but who could have left without triggering suspicion? Information and materials seem to flow in relatively easily, but out is a different issue.


----------



## BriGuy20

EDIT: Oops, not Jack's phone.

I think the funeral is for Locke. First two letters look like Jo on the enhanced screen cap.

Could also (conceivably) be Sawyer, it could be Ja (i.e. James) instead of Jo, depending on how a is rendered in that particular font.


----------



## Fish Man

BriGuy20 said:


> Any smeeking is exempt when threads get this long, so tough nuggets if I am.
> 
> The Sprint logo is the newer one, after the Nextel merger. That means it's after 2005. The KRZR came out in the 4th quarter of 2006, so it's later than that too (unless Jack gets dibs on new phones).


I think it's credible that it took Jack a couple of years after being rescued to sink to the level of drug addiction that we saw.

So, 2007ish timeframe for the flash-forward's seems reasonable.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Fish Man said:


> I most strongly disagree.
> 
> I'm of the strong opinion that *several* other "deaths" that turned out not to be (namely, all the ones I cited) were MUCH, MUCH more "certain" than Charlie's death here, at the time.
> 
> Mickael being thrown through the sonic fence was clear, and yet he wasn't dead. Ditto the harpoon through his heart.
> 
> Last season, Desmond turned that key at ground zero of an explosion that left a crater like a massive bomb would leave -- and survived.
> 
> Charlie was prepared for death when he dove in. He expected "The Looking Glass" to be flooded.
> 
> When it wasn't, Charlie immediately decided that perhaps he *didn't* have to die. Fate had been cheated once again.
> 
> Perhaps he could continue to cheat fate!
> 
> We leave the scene with Charlie still, maybe, having time to swim out the porthole. (Suspension of disbelief required regarding "The Bends", etc. but that's far less a suspension than some of the other "deaths" have required on this show.)


I suppose you're entitled to your opinion. I'm not saying that Charlie "recovering" from this death would be any more or less unbelievable than some of the previous occurrences. All I'm saying is that the way Charlie's death was foreshadowed, the way he knew it was going to happen, the way we knew it was going to happen, the way the producers and the promos announced that a major character was going to die, and the way it played out, all signal that they wrote the character off of the show, and that he died a hero. None of the other instances you mentioned had that same kind of setup, and therefore none of them seemed as final.

Let me be clear: I don't disagree with you that quoting an outside source (such as the EW.com article in this case) was a spoiler against the forum rules. I'm simply saying that nobody should really be taking much notice of it because it doesn't really give any more information that the normal viewer should have been able to infer simply by watching.


----------



## Bananfish

markz said:


> And as for the theory that it was Hurley's funeral...
> 
> I don't buy it. Everyone would go to Hurley's funeral. Heck, I'd go to Hurley's funeral!
> 
> Jack wouldn't contemplate suicide over Hurley's death, and Kate wouldn't think ambivalently about why she would go to his funeral.


I don't think Jack is contemplating suicide because of the death of the person in the article, at least not principally. I think he is contemplating suicide *for the same reasons that the person in the article committed suicide*.

Flashforward Jack was already very depressed before he ever saw that article. He's been drinking like a fish (evidence: getting drunk on the plane, ex-wife asks him if he's been drinking, surgeon asks him how drunk he is) and popping pills, he has ceased to care what he looks like, and he goes on weekend airplane excursions for no good reason. The guy is clearly suffering from inner turmoil.

My theory is that at some point after this episode's events on the island, Jack, Kate and at least one other third person (Sawyer? Locke?) are forced into a decision about whether to leave the island, leaving some other people back in some kind of danger, trouble, pain or otherwise in a bad way. They do indeed leave the island. (Perhaps in return for doing so, they get rewarded with things like a Golden Pass and some other things, but they aren't allowed to talk about what went on on the island. Notice how Jack says that he is "tired of lying" when he talks to Kate at the end.)

Jack and the third person (and perhaps Kate too) are wracked with guilt over their decision, plunging at least Jack and the third person into a guilt-ridden depression. Jack deals with the depression by drinking heavily and going on the long weekend airplane excursions, semi-hoping to crash and go back to the island to save the people they were forced to leave behind.

Eventually, the third person can't take the guilt and commits suicide by hanging himself from a beam. Jack sees the article on the plane about the death, and this spurs him into further depression. He too contemplates suicide, mostly because of the original guilt, but also because of the third person's suicide. He climbs up on the bridge and looks up and says "forgive me," meaning for leaving the others behind on the island. The accident occurs at that moment, spurring his sense of responsibility to others and he saves the woman and her child.

Still wracked with guilt, and reminded of his deep sense of responsibility to others, he goes to the funeral for the third person, hoping perhaps to see Kate to convince her to go back to the island with him, but she doesn't show up.

Eventually he gets hold of Kate and gets her to meet with him. They meet and he implores her to go back to the island to fix the wrong that they did by leaving - he tells her "they have to go back" because it's the only way for him to be able to cope with life again. (Kate normally has a very high sense of "going back for the others" responsibility, which is why Jack thinks he might be able to convince her.)

She gets into her car to leave.

(Don't be surprised if she comes back and says "OK, let's do it - how do we get there?" I could see them going back being Season 5 and/or 6, while all the events that happen on the island after this week's events which lead to Jack, Kate and the third person leaving the island being Season 4.)


----------



## DevdogAZ

Bananfish said:


> I don't think Jack is contemplating suicide because of the death of the person in the article, at least not principally. I think he is contemplating suicide *for the same reasons that the person in the article committed suicide*.


Except that the newspaper clipping mentions the "victim's loft" so I don't think it's clear that the deceased committed suicide.


----------



## Bananfish

I wouldn't be surprised to see the "ntham" listed in the article turn out to be "Bentham." Jeremy Bentham is a very famous philosopher - this would go quite well with Locke, Rousseau, etc. 

Bentham "first developed the philosophy of modern utilitarianism, a system of ethics based upon the universal hedonistic premise that the good can be judged based upon whatever produces the greatest happiness for the largest number of people."

I believe he also wrote extensively on the ethics of imprisonment.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

devdogaz said:


> Let me be clear: I don't disagree with you that quoting an outside source (such as the EW.com article in this case) was a spoiler against the forum rules. I'm simply saying that nobody should really be taking much notice of it because it doesn't really give any more information that the normal viewer should have been able to infer simply by watching.


But in this case it's not against the rules because Charlie's death was clear and obvious (for reasons I've already said). Anybody saying Charlie could have survived is on the same level of denial as the people who insisted Sun wasn't having sex with her tutor, even after we saw them naked in bed together. And I see no reason to torture the rules of the forum brutally enough to pander to that level of denial.


----------



## Fish Man

Bananfish said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see the "ntham" listed in the article turn out to be "Bentham." Jeremy Bentham is a very famous philosopher - this would go quite well with Locke, Rousseau, etc.
> 
> Bentham "first developed the philosophy of modern utilitarianism, a system of ethics based upon the universal hedonistic premise that the good can be judged based upon whatever produces the greatest happiness for the largest number of people."
> 
> I believe he also wrote extensively on the ethics of imprisonment.


So, watch for a little-person character (strangely short casket) introduced next season on the island named "Jeremy Bentham", whom Jack becomes close friends with during the season! 

Heluva a bit of research there, Bananfish!! :up:

As "Lost" theories go, I absolutely love it!!


----------



## Fish Man

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But in this case it's not against the rules because Charlie's death was clear and obvious (for reasons I've already said).


Come on, man.

It was FAR LESS "clear and obvious" than Desmonds "death" when he turned the key, Locke's "death" in the pit of corpses, Charlies first "death" when he was hung, Michail's "death" when he was thrown through the fence and then harpooned, etc.

Sheesh! What is obvious is that the outside source confirmation needs to be spoilerized under the *rules of this forum!!*

*Any information about the future of the show from an outside source is supposed to be spoilerized!!!*

Sheesh! *The rule* at least is "clear and obvious"!


----------



## getbak

Bananfish said:


> Bentham "first developed the philosophy of modern utilitarianism, a system of ethics based upon the universal hedonistic premise that the good can be judged based upon whatever produces the greatest happiness for the largest number of people."


Interesting, especially with regards to his philosophy.

The question is whether getting off the island will produce greater happiness for the largest number of people, or if staying on the island will. Jack and the dead guy (assuming it was suicide) were happier on the island, it appears; while Kate looked like she was doing okay back home.


----------



## desulliv

markz said:


> But he got better!
> 
> And as for the theory that it was Hurley's funeral...
> 
> I don't buy it. Everyone would go to Hurley's funeral. Heck, I'd go to Hurley's funeral!
> 
> Jack wouldn't contemplate suicide over Hurley's death, and Kate wouldn't think ambivalently about why she would go to his funeral.


I don't buy it was Hurley's funeral either. He's at home wondering where Kate is.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Fish Man said:


> Come on, man.
> 
> It was FAR LESS "clear and obvious" than Desmonds "death" when he turned the key, Locke's "death" in the pit of corpses, Charlies first "death" when he was hung, Michail's "death" when he was thrown through the fence and then harpooned, etc.
> 
> Sheesh! What is obvious is that the outside source confirmation needs to be spoilerized under the *rules of this forum!!*
> 
> *Any information about the future of the show from an outside source is supposed to be spoilerized!!!*
> 
> Sheesh! *The rule* at least is "clear and obvious"!


Except the post you originally objected to had no information beyond what was already in the episode. I guess when one is dealing with this level of denial, there's no point in continuing.

But I'm not going to stop discussing things that happen in an episode because you won't admit they happened.


----------



## desulliv

jkeegan said:


> ..but here, the only people that saw this future was(were?) us*(we?)* , the audience.


----------



## hapdrastic

Fish Man said:


> Come on, man.
> 
> It was FAR LESS "clear and obvious" than Desmonds "death" when he turned the key, Locke's "death" in the pit of corpses, Charlies first "death" when he was hung, Michail's "death" when he was thrown through the fence and then harpooned, etc.
> 
> Sheesh! What is obvious is that the outside source confirmation needs to be spoilerized under the *rules of this forum!!*
> 
> *Any information about the future of the show from an outside source is supposed to be spoilerized!!!*
> 
> Sheesh! *The rule* at least is "clear and obvious"!


Desmond's "death", as you put it, was not clear at all, since they didn't show a body. Charlie's first death wasn't a cliffhanger he was hung and brought back in the same episode, so not really an issue here. Locke in the pit of corpses wasn't clear since he was still moving around and stuff and thus decidedly not dead. Charlie, in the hatch, was shown to be dead. He was drowned and dead. Enough said (sorry, felt like rhyming).

Besides the offending quote does not indicate that he doesn't come *back* from the dead (or that he does, for that matter). Just that he is, in fact, dead. He is no more. Pining for the fjords and all that. So the quote doesn't really need to be spoilerized since it doesn't talk about anything in future episodes.

That being said...I wish people would just spoilerize things anyway so people wouldn't complain so much - it really fills up the thread with a bunch of useless bickering. Who cares?


----------



## Fish Man

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except the post you originally objected to had no information beyond what was already in the episode. I guess when one is dealing with this level of denial, there's no point in continuing.
> 
> But I'm not going to stop discussing things that happen in an episode because you won't admit they happened.


It so clearly and unambiguously did. The one who's "in denial" is the one who can't see that. But I will not be dragged any further into making personal attacks.

I will however, make one more attempt to get through how blatant a spoiler rule violation that post was.

In last season's finale, we saw Desmond at dead center of ground zero of a phenomenon that the SFX people presented as nothing short of a nuclear explosion!

Desmond was unquestionably, unambiguously, unarguably *DEAD!!!*

Now, suppose, in our thread discussing that episode last year, someone had posted the non-spoiler-tagged quoted text from an article talking about how Henry Ian Cusick (Desmond) had been signed to a contract for another season of "Lost".

*That would have been a clear violation of the rule,* as it would have given away a big surprise coming the following season.



Spoiler



The post in question violates the rule in the same way in that it confirms the _lack_ of a similar plot twist vis-a-vis Charlie next season.


----------



## smak

Anybody besides me a little perturbed at seeing Malcolm David Kelly's name in the opening credits. You're forced to watch the credits, because they are overlaid on the actual show, but then you get information that somebody who hasn't been on the show for a year will be on it. Grrr, i hate that.

Also, if Naomi didn't come from Penny's ship, why did she have the Penny/Desmond picture.

Leads one to believe that it's probably Charles Widmore's ship.

-smak-


----------



## peitsche

Bananfish said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see the "ntham" listed in the article turn out to be "Bentham." Jeremy Bentham is a very famous philosopher - this would go quite well with Locke, Rousseau, etc.
> 
> Bentham "first developed the philosophy of modern utilitarianism, a system of ethics based upon the universal hedonistic premise that the good can be judged based upon whatever produces the greatest happiness for the largest number of people."
> 
> I believe he also wrote extensively on the ethics of imprisonment.


Wiki entry


----------



## MacThor

smak said:


> Anybody besides me a little perturbed at seeing Malcolm David Kelly's name in the opening credits. You're forced to watch the credits, because they are overlaid on the actual show, but then you get information that somebody who hasn't been on the show for a year will be on it. Grrr, i hate that.


Yeah, they should have spoiler tagged the credits.


----------



## MacThor

ireland967 said:


> Strange that the function of the Looking Glass was able to block all incoming/outgoing transmissions to the real world, but the Communications station was able to send and receive information on the Oceanic flight's crash and passengers.


Let's assume that Ben ordered them to start jamming _after_ the sky turned purple, and used that as an opportunity to convince his people that they couldn't communicate. The purple sky took place two months after the plane crash, and Mikhael's research thereof.


----------



## Fish Man

MacThor said:


> Yeah, they should have spoiler tagged the credits.


Thunder stolen.


----------



## markz

desulliv said:


> I don't buy it was Hurley's funeral either. He's at home wondering where Kate is.


Nice!


----------



## durl

Something I just thought about...when Jack and the Losties were walking to the tower, Rousseau said that she didn't want to leave the island because there was nothing for her back home. What are the chances that she HAS been off the island and came back the same way Jack wants to in his flash-forward?

Or I'm just having fun making up wild theories...


----------



## MacThor

Random thoughts and ironies from the last three episodes:

The "purge" probably missed not only the Swan (because it was so heavily fortified) but also the Pearl. In fact, they may not have purged any of the "hatches" at first, but only the main Dharma village. While I usually agree with Fish Man, I don't think the "incident" was the purge. The orientation film appears to be much older than the purge, which happened about a decade ago (for some reason "11 years" is in my head - perhaps from the Answers show?). And remember all those pneumatic tubes just sitting there in a field from Season 2 Finale? Whoever was manning the Pearl kept taking notes and sending up the tubes, unaware of the Purge, and whoever was supposed to pick up the tubes had been killed!

Juliet didn't help much at the beach .... but if she had stayed with the main group she might have been a help at the confrontation with Ben. Perhaps she'd understand that Ben really was telling the truth about Naomi and how important it was _not_ to make that call....however, she also really wants off the island, so who knows? Also, Juliet's look when Sawyer shot Tom was very well-acted. Kind of a "wow, we really did push these people too far."

Why were the Others building a runway on the alcatraz island? What could land there - a prop jet? If the only way to travel to the island (non-crash, of course) is by sub, why bother with a runway?


----------



## DUDE_NJX

bdlucas said:


> Right, but that applies to the whole island as far as we can tell. What about _that station_ makes it the Looking Glass station?


I think it's quite obvious. The station serves as a "looking glass" - being a lookout at the island's perimeter.


----------



## MacThor

I'm looking forward to the re-watch tonight with my wife. She's working in DC every Wednesday so we have these weekly "Lost"-analysis phone calls during commercial breaks. When I called her just before 10 last night and asked, "What do you think so far?" she asked, "What do you mean?" She had forgotten that the show started at 9!!  This show demands a double-watch, anyway.


----------



## danterner

rlc1 said:


> In the second paragraph of the obituary that Jack is reading, it says something about "The Tower", and it's capitalized just like I typed it. The words before that are not too clear but I think it says "man at The Tower". In the same sentence I can also read the words "loud" and "a beam in the", but that's all I can make out.
> 
> I wonder what "The Tower" could be? Something on the island? Something in Los Angeles?


I've read through the first half of the thread, and I'm making my way through the second half. I don't think this is a smeek, since I did a quick search through the second half....

If it's talking about "The Tower" and "a beam," the first thing that comes to my mind is Stephen King's "The Dark Tower" series. Maybe just a King easter egg. There certainly have been many others throughout the history of the show...

GREAT finale, by the way.


----------



## Uncle Briggs

jerrad707 said:


> EVERYONE, he might be on to something here!


There is one in every bunch.


----------



## getbak

MacThor said:


> Why were the Others building a runway on the alcatraz island? What could land there - a prop jet? If the only way to travel to the island (non-crash, of course) is by sub, why bother with a runway?


I was confused about the runway comment too.

Sawyer asked what they were breaking the rocks for, and she said they were building a runway. Then Sawyer asked her what the runway was for, she said "the aliens", then laughed and said "I don't know what for".

Sawyer asked her 2 "what for" questions -- 1 about the rocks, and 1 about the runway. When she said "I don't know what for. You think they told me everything?", she could be saying that she was joking about the runway being for aliens, or she could have been joking about building a runway altogether?

You'd think that if they were actually building a runway, it would have come up in the conversation between Ben and Juliette after Locke blew up the submarine.


----------



## ElJay

Martin Tupper said:


> No one is dead in Lost until they are declared dead...and even then there's wiggle-room. Outside reports of contract renewal (or lack thereof) are spoilers, pure and simple.


Charlie's dead unless he can survive by breathing in water. I don't know why people want to argue this fact, or for that matter complain about interviews with the actor that confirm this fact.


----------



## MacThor

I was really surprised that it was Jin who missed! Bernard would have been the obvious choice, although he did screw up later.

Perhaps the remaining Others had to go to the temple because it's late December and it's time to celebrate the Holidays?

Why would Rose want to leave the island? She's found her cure!

I still wonder why the Others were all grubby at the end of Season 2. It certainly wasn't for the benefit of Jack, Kate & Sawyer since they abandoned that immediately at the beginning of Season 3. Maybe to deceive Michael, Walt and Hugo, since they assumed the love triangle would never escape the alcatraz island?

Ben is such a fascinating character. I keep racking my brain as to whether he really wanted the island to be found or not. An argument can be made either way. Remember what Alex said about him: "He manipulates people into thinking something is their idea, and they do exactly what he wants."

Sooo.....let's examine it both ways. If he wants to keep the island hidden, isolated, and his people from leaving, (and his fear seemed genuine last night) he:
Realized the "purple sky" would have made the island visible/traceable
Told the Looking Glass girls to jam communications
Lied to his people about communications being out
Convinced Locke to blow up the submarine (by telling him it was pointless)
Told Mikhael to kill the Looking Glass girls, Charlie, and continue the jamming

Some actions, however, are inconsistent with his isolationism:
As Henry Gale, he convinced Locke he didn't need to enter the numbers - which would have made the island visible (and possibly killed them all)
Was building a runway
Allowed Michael and Walt to leave
Why would he tell Juliet about the jamming?
Perhaps, he really wanted Jack to complete the call - so he used his "do the opposite" manipulation technique

I have no idea - Whatever Ben's motivations are at this point they are driving the direction of the show in S4-6.


----------



## ironchef

ElJay said:


> Charlie's dead unless he can survive by breathing in water. I don't know why people want to argue this fact, or for that matter complain about interviews with the actor that confirm this fact.


As I said before, the writers would never mislead us.....

Until you see the last episode of the series, do you think you can really write off anybody?


----------



## wprager

Fish Man said:


> No.
> 
> It specifies concretely an explanation that the episode left ambiguous (deliberately so, by my reading).


You are not serious are you? This is another "she didn't sleep with Jae" debate.

He made his peace, pushed back, crossed himself and let out his last breath. What the hell do you people want? There was no ambiguity about it. If there was, then I doubt that the producers would let the actor run around talking about it. This should be a -- ahem -- dead issue.


----------



## wmcbrine

MacThor said:


> I was really surprised that it was Jin who missed!


I think the problem was that he only had a pistol... not the right tool for this job.


----------



## bdlucas

DUDE_NJX said:


> I think it's quite obvious. The station serves as a "looking glass" - being a lookout at the island's perimeter.


But Looking Glass station is an obvious reference to Lewis Carroll, hammered home by the title of the finale "Through the Looking Glass". In that Carroll work "looking glass" is a mirror and a portal to a topsy-turvy backwards world, "through the looking glass" meaning having entered that world. Has nothing to do with a lookout.

Has Charlie gone "through the looking glass" by dying (and possibly being resurrected next season)? Did Desmond when he died and was resurrected by the island? Locke? Others?

I think we still haven't learned the true significance of the Looking Glass station, or at least I'm missing it.


----------



## wprager

This whole rule hinges on your definition of spoiler. The event happened on the show and was confirmed in the interview. No spoiler, so the rule does not apply. It's clear as day to me, sorry.

I did not see Mikhail shot through the heart. The arrow hit his vest, he went down, we didn't (originally) see blood.

A punctured ear drum can also result in blood coming from the ears.

We don't know how long Charlie was hanging or if his airway was 100% obstructed. Obviously his neck didn't break (him being just a Hobbit and all).

There are many other explanations.

Look, all I am saying is that this time *I* did not see any wiggle room *purposely* being left in the scene. When Paolo and Nikki were buried and Vincent came digging around -- *that* was wiggle room. The producers stated on the podcast


Spoiler



that they were, in fact, dead and when you die on the Island you stay dead


.

I understand your interpretation of the rule, and I accept all of your background evidence (stating how people can miraculously recover). I still, however, maintain that this did not look (to me, and most other people, I would guess) like one of those cases.



Fish Man said:


> I guess I need to quote the rules again:
> 
> What part of *"other sources, such as articles..."* don't you understand?
> 
> Mikail was shot through the heart with a harpoon and didn't die.
> 
> Earlier, blood gushed out of his ears and he was fine a day or two later.
> 
> Charlie was "hung" and didn't die.
> 
> Locke was shot in the belly, left in a pit of rotting corpses, bleeding profusely, and didn't die.
> 
> Locke, Charlie, Eko, and Desmond were at or near "ground zero" of an "implosion" that left a 50 foot deep crater in the ground and didn't die (at least from the implosion, Eko died later).
> 
> There are many other examples.
> 
> In this episode, we see Charlie in a room filling up with water. With a minor suspension of disbelief (for Lost, anyway) we can easily come up with scenarios where he might survive this.
> 
> Then you post from an *article* (see rules quote above):
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Confirmation from the actor and program producers that Charlie is, in fact, dead.


I don't know whom you are quoting there, but I did not write that. I kept to very generic terms on purpose. No flaunting as far as I am concerned (certainly none intended).



> I've never seen a clearer and more obvious violation of the rule quoted above.
> 
> Are you flaunting the rules just to prove how you're more important than everyone else on this forum? Or, do you really not see how this clearly fits the rule above?


----------



## Mike Farrington

bdlucas said:


> But Looking Glass station is an obvious reference to Lewis Carroll, hammered home by the title of the finale "Through the Looking Glass". In that Carroll work "looking glass" is a mirror and a portal to a topsy-turvy backwards world, "through the looking glass" meaning having entered that world. Has nothing to do with a lookout. Which leads me to believe that being a portal is its primary function.
> 
> Has Charlie gone "through the looking glass" by dying (and possibly being resurrected next season)? Did Desmond when he died and was resurrected by the island? Locke? Others?
> 
> I think we still haven't learned the true significance of the Looking Glass station, or at least I'm missing it.


Perhaps people normally enter/leave the island through some mystical/magical process that takes place at The Looking Glass. The sub takes the passengers to/from the dock to The Looking Glass. If you remember, newbies are sedated so as not to witness their actual arrival. Why would the rank and file others have been told that The Looking Glass was flooded? To trick them in to beleiving that there is currently no way on or off the island. Patchy wasn't just surprised by the station not being flooded, he was even more surprised by the jamming. Which leads me to believe that being a portal is its primary function.

So if The Looking Glass station is the gateway to the island.... then there is your metaphor. The island is Wonderland, the station is The Looking Glass.


----------



## mqpickles

mask2343 said:


> Guy survives a plane wreck, rescues a bunch of people, the rescues 2 more in a car accident...and the girl can't give the man a ride home?!


Yeah, I thought that was pretty harsh.


----------



## bacevedo

> But Looking Glass station is an obvious reference to Lewis Carroll, hammered home by the title of the finale "Through the Looking Glass". In that Carroll work "looking glass" is a mirror and a portal to a topsy-turvy backwards world, "through the looking glass" meaning having entered that world. Has nothing to do with a lookout.
> 
> Has Charlie gone "through the looking glass" by dying (and possibly being resurrected next season)? Did Desmond when he died and was resurrected by the island? Locke? Others?
> 
> I think we still haven't learned the true significance of the Looking Glass station, or at least I'm missing it.


I think "Through the Looking Glass" refers to the flash backs now becoming flash forwards. You just said it yourself - in the book the mirror looks through to a topsy-turvy backwards world. We have now entered the future world in Lost (verses always being in the past) and I think the writers were hinting at this all along with the name of the hatch and season finale.

Bryan


----------



## Mike Farrington

mqpickles said:


> Yeah, I thought that was pretty harsh.


Maybe she was so happy to see him when she found out he survived. They had naughty cheating pity joy sex and she became impregnated by his super island sperm. So its inappropriate for them to be alone. Simple really.


----------



## wprager

RunnerFL said:


> If the moon pool de-stabilized it wouldn't be a gradual influx of water. The station would fill up almost instantly. There is no way that Desmond and Charlie could fight the amount of water and pressure flowing in. It would have tossed them around like toys inside the station.


I could be wrong -- wouldn't be the first time, but I think it would be similar to this:

Take a bowl, flip it over and push it underwater in a bathtub. Now drill a little hole in its side. The water pressure pushes the air out of the hole, and as the air escapes it is replaced by water (most likely entering from the bottom of the bowl). As soon as the water level inside the bowl reaches the hole, no more air can escape, so no more water can enter -- the bowl is pressurized again (it acts like a smaller bowl, cut-off at the hole).

Of course I have no idea how long it would take; air is easily compressed so it may very well happen quickly. That said, it would happen quickly but then stop.


----------



## Regina

Ok, I have read all 17 pages and no one has put forth my theory:
The island brought Jack's dad back to life! The big metal box, where you can dream up anything you want? Maybe Ben gave Jack a whirl at it...and he wanted his daddy back?  
Well, it's a thought...
And Mikhail without his eye patch...  

Who's in the casket? Dunno! I don't think it looked smaller than a "normal" casket
Who's "he?" Charlie of course! Dominic and Evangeline are marrying this summer, right?  HA HA

I didn't call the flash forward at all! I was totally surprised! WOW!


Pharmacy nitpick: If he was really on Oxycontin, that is a C-II narcotic and according to Federal Law, CANNOT be refilled...so when the pharmacist told him that he'd already had all the refills, I thought...How interesting, since C-II prescriptions CANNOT be refilled! Oh, did I mention I am a pharmacist?


----------



## DevdogAZ

Fish Man said:


> It so clearly and unambiguously did. The one who's "in denial" is the one who can't see that. But I will not be dragged any further into making personal attacks.
> 
> I will however, make one more attempt to get through how blatant a spoiler rule violation that post was.
> 
> In last season's finale, we saw Desmond at dead center of ground zero of a phenomenon that the SFX people presented as nothing short of a nuclear explosion!
> 
> Desmond was unquestionably, unambiguously, unarguably *DEAD!!!*
> 
> Now, suppose, in our thread discussing that episode last year, someone had posted the non-spoiler-tagged quoted text from an article talking about how Henry Ian Cusick (Desmond) had been signed to a contract for another season of "Lost".
> 
> *That would have been a clear violation of the rule,* as it would have given away a big surprise coming the following season.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The post in question violates the rule in the same way in that it confirms the _lack_ of a similar plot twist vis-a-vis Charlie next season.


You really thought Desmond was dead after the S2 finale? That thought never entered my mind. I knew that there was much more story to tell with his character and that he'd be back.

As for Charlie, they made a pretty concerted effort to tie up his loose ends, have him reconcile with the fact that it was his time to die, and have him go out as a hero. I just can't see how anyone would think that he wasn't dead. Sure, he could somehow come back to life, but until that happens, the writers and producers want us to think he's dead, and any outside stories or quotes from the actor are simply confirming what we've already seen in the episode.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Regina said:


> Ok, I have read all 17 pages and no one has put forth my theory:
> The island brought Jack's dad back to life! The big metal box, where you can dream up anything you want? Maybe Ben gave Jack a whirl at it...and he wanted his daddy back?


There is no big metal box. I can't believe how many people took that literally when Ben first said it, and since Ben later confirmed that it was a metaphor, there shouldn't be any more theories involving a big, metal, wishing box.


----------



## smak

Everything we've seen of Kate, and it has been demonstrated many many times, is that if somebody is left behind, she wants to go after them. Whether it's Jack with the Others, or Jin, Bernard & Sayid at the Beach, she wants to go rescue them.

So that leads me to believe, that Jack & Kate didn't get off the island, while everybody else stay behind, because it seems to me that she'd be the one with the maps trying to find them.

And when Jack says we have to go back, there are two meanings of "back" there 

-smak-


----------



## Regina

devdogaz said:


> There is no big metal box. I can't believe how many people took that literally when Ben first said it, and since Ben later confirmed that it was a metaphor, there shouldn't be any more theories involving a big, metal, wishing box.


Perhaps you failed to notice my sarcastic "" 

Geez...who would want THAT dad back anyway? :down: :down:


----------



## wprager

devdogaz said:


> As has been stated, Rose and Bernard are also from NY, but it's much more likely that the funeral was for a character we haven't met yet.


On the table, beside the coffin, there is a book that looks like a diary. Some are speculating that it could be Ben's diary.


----------



## Mike Farrington

smak said:


> Everything we've seen of Kate, and it has been demonstrated many many times, is that if somebody is left behind, she wants to go after them. Whether it's Jack with the Others, or Jin, Bernard & Sayid at the Beach, she wants to go rescue them.
> 
> So that leads me to believe, that Jack & Kate didn't get off the island, while everybody else stay behind, because it seems to me that she'd be the one with the maps trying to find them.
> 
> And when Jack says we have to go back, there are two meanings of "back" there


Perhaps Jack was let in on the big secret... the grand purpose of the island. Now he wants desperately to be a part of that again.


----------



## bruinfan

Martin Tupper said:


> Letting air our might prevent your lungs from bursting, would do anything about the bends. The bends occur when nitrogen in you bloodstream returns to a gaseous state (bubbles) during a sudden decompression.
> Since the station would have to be pressurized to equal the water pressure at the opening at the bottom of the station, They were probably at about at 3-4 atmospheres.
> Charlie had been down there many hours building up nitrogen in his bloodstream. (Mikhail hadn't even started his overnight hike to the beach when the girls radioed Ben).


1 atm=33 ft
i say they are less than 60ft underwater, considering they are freediving to the bottom, charlie with weights and desmond scaled the cable...and considering how far they were from shore.

most dive tables go to at least 130ft, btw.

so, charlie and desmond are at serious risk of bends without proper decompression. but, like mentioned, that beats being dead. they risk stroking out, especially charlie, but theoretically, desmond could've brought up a tank and regulator, and charlie could've gone back down (very soon after surfacing) to deco and had a good chance of survival.

what an awesome episode... what a good series of episodes coming back from the hiatus.


----------



## TiMo Tim

Squeak said:


> How is Jack able to fly Oceanic Air? The website they put up after season 1 says they shut down after the crash of Flight 815:
> 
> http://oceanic-air.com/
> 
> 
> 
> We regret to announce that Oceanic Airlines has ceased all operations effective immediately.
> 
> Michael Orteig, President of Oceanic Airlines, released this statement: "After 25 years of service, we are forced to close our doors. Due to financial difficulties in the wake of the Flight 815 tragedy, we are no longer able to sustain service. We are deeply sorry that we can no longer serve our loyal customers, and apologize for any inconvenience our decision will cause."
> 
> Passengers of Oceanic Airlines are encouraged to contact their travel agent or one of Oceanic's airline partners to make alternate travel arrangements.
Click to expand...

Maybe the shutdown wasn't immediate-- perhaps their financial difficulties came from the large number of "golden tickets" they handed out to the survivors-- and the fact that Jack was taking them up on their offer so often.


----------



## jwjody

So freaking confusing.

Why does the underwater lab have a direct connection to Penny. If Naomi's people aren't looking for Desmond, how did she get a picture of Des and Penny, and why does she have it?

So is this future written in stone? I'm a little disappointed if it is, we know the ending and it isn't good.

Why does Jack want to go back to the island so bad? Does he leave some people behind?

J


----------



## bdlucas

Mike Farrington said:


> Perhaps people normally enter/leave the island through some mystical/magical process that takes place at The Looking Glass. The sub takes the passengers to/from the dock to The Looking Glass. If you remember, newbies are sedated so as not to witness their actual arrival. Why would the rank and file others have been told that The Looking Glass was flooded? To trick them in to beleiving that there is currently no way on or off the island. Patchy wasn't just surprised by the station not being flooded, he was even more surprised by the jamming. Which leads me to believe that being a portal is its primary function.
> 
> So if The Looking Glass station is the gateway to the island.... then there is your metaphor. The island is Wonderland, the station is The Looking Glass.


That was my theory as well (posted in last week's thread). Didn't see any evidence of that this week, and I would have expected to in an episode titled "Through the Looking Glass". But it could still be.



bacevedo said:


> I think "Through the Looking Glass" refers to the flash backs now becoming flash forwards. You just said it yourself - in the book the mirror looks through to a topsy-turvy backwards world. We have now entered the future world in Lost (verses always being in the past) and I think the writers were hinting at this all along with the name of the hatch and season finale.


That's an interesting idea.


----------



## jwjody

So will next season be fast forwards to show people dealing with being off the island?

J


----------



## GadgetFreak

+1 on the theories that Jack is feeling guilty for leaving people behind. Perhaps he didn't know at first -- they told him about it after, or helicopter drops him off at the ship then goes back for more people and crashes.

He was willing to get off the island without his friends once, who is to say he would not do it again. But after getting back he cannot live with himself.

Kate may have been given a new identity by Widmore or Widmore arranged to havethe charges dropped, but has something on her to blackmail her.

I cannot recall from earlier -- did Naomi say that Penny sent her, or was it implied?


----------



## Fish Man

Crazy theory time...

This is one of those "I'm not sure I really believe this, but I'm throwing it out there" theories...

I've previously proposed that one of the few (or the only) stations that Dharma retained tenuous control of was "The Swan", and that Ben and his people didn't understand its significance. The evidence being that Ben didn't seem to be impressed with the importance of "pushing the button" and he didn't seem to have any clue as to what caused "the sky to turn purple".

This new theory is that Ben knew exactly what The Swan hatch was for, and it was _in fact a BS test of the people in it. Pushing the button was, in fact, not doing anything!!_

The "effect" of the "implosion" and the sky turning purple was a special effect the Ben, himself, orchestrated!!

Ben's people weren't in on any of this, only Ben.

Evidence for this new theory: We now know that "the sky turning purple" *has nothing whatsoever to do with the loss of contact with the outside world! Ben is (was) jamming the frequencies!* But he's keeping this jamming a secret from *most of his own people!* (Most of them think "The Looking Glass" is flooded and inoperable.)

Discuss.


----------



## jkeegan

Wow. Finally caught up and nothing much to say.


----------



## TRD_Dan

Okay I made it to page 8 when this thought struck me, hopefully I'm without smeek.

When the window was blown out, I'm thinking the flow would actually go the other way. The air should rush out the window and the water would rush up through the moon pool, ala path of least resistance. 

Thoughts?


----------



## hefe

wprager said:


> I could be wrong -- wouldn't be the first time, but I think it would be similar to this:
> 
> Take a bowl, flip it over and push it underwater in a bathtub. Now drill a little hole in its side. The water pressure pushes the air out of the hole, and as the air escapes it is replaced by water (most likely entering from the bottom of the bowl). As soon as the water level inside the bowl reaches the hole, no more air can escape, so no more water can enter -- the bowl is pressurized again (it acts like a smaller bowl, cut-off at the hole).
> 
> Of course I have no idea how long it would take; air is easily compressed so it may very well happen quickly. That said, it would happen quickly but then stop.


You'd think that's what would happen.










Chalk one up for dramatic license, I guess.


----------



## mqpickles

danplaysbass said:


> Good Lord!! I was shocked to come here at 7 am the day after and find 8 pages of posts!! This was a stellar episode!!
> 
> I was laughing when Hurley came with the truck. It was so typical for him. I've been feeling bad for him lately especially since Charlie and sawyer both rejected him because of his size/shape. He redeemed himself!!


I think in both cases they were protecting him rather than rejecting him, but the only way to do that was to act like they were rejecting him. They didn't want to put him in danger, so they made the one kind of comment that would make him slink away, and not insist on going along.

Charlie, especially, didn't want Hurley to even know what his real intent was, so he had to get him to turn away.


----------



## hefe

Regina said:


> Who's in the casket? Dunno! I don't think it looked smaller than a "normal" casket
> Who's "he?" Charlie of course!


It doesn't look greatly smaller, but it does appear slightly smaller. But maybe that's just an optical illusion or something...


----------



## mqpickles

betts4 said:


> He made the sign of the cross - that catholic thing - and I think he was expecting to die.
> 
> I'm going to have to check the tivo later today, but think I saw evidence of a real, live, true musician's inside joke in Charlie's punching in the code sequence. Soon to be pushing up daisies Bonnie confides that the numerical sequence is "Good Vibrations," with a bevy of numbers. Charlie's musician mind knows that there are too many numbers for the musical signiture of the song that I'll be everyone here mentally played in their heads when they said the name of the song, that of Carol Kaye's bass lines for the chorus "I'm pickin' up good vibrations..." etc. INSTEAD, it was the vocal chorus bridge of wordless "ba da da da da, ba da dah! " etc. Charlie's musician instincts for once served him quite well.


I thought it was the "Gotta keep those lovin' good vibrations happening with her" part. 545...

But that's still in keeping with your point, that it would have taken a musician to leap to the part that has the right sequence of notes.


----------



## wprager

hefe said:


> You'd think that's what would happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chalk one up for dramatic license, I guess.


Well, in the show Charlie sealed the room, which prevented the air from being pushed out. So I'm OK with water rushing in, instead. That said, as has already been mentioned, if the room *is* hermetically (or close) sealed, then wouldn't the water rush in, displacing the air inside toward the ceiling; and when the remaining air was sufficiently compressed between the ceiling and the rising water, then the room becomes pressurized and no-more water comes in.

On the third hand, seeing Charlie right up against the port-hole like that, he could totally fit through it!


----------



## sushikitten

I think he might have a problem with his shoulders fitting. Maybe if he wedged and shimmied and wasted a lot of energy... but definitely not easily.


----------



## thatmeowgirl

Graymalkin said:


> I'm thinking -- and this is totally off the top of my head here -- that in the flash-forward, Jack is desperate to get back to the island because he couldn't rescue everyone and had to make a Sophie's Choice about who to rescue and who to leave behind. He (and the other rescuees) also have had to pretend that those left behind are dead, which might be tearing him apart inside.


My thoguhts exactly... GUILT.


----------



## thatmeowgirl

Jack needs to get back to save those he left behind.... to be illustrated in the next 3 seasons.

He has always dont the right thing. Now he needs to fix what he f'd.


----------



## SNJpage1

If you look at the photo that was posted of Jack with his hand on the coffen you can determine that the coffin is about 4 hands wide on the one side and about 6 hands wide on the other. That would make it about 10 hands or about 70 inchs wide. A person in it would have to be less than 60 inchs tall or under 5 feet. I think Ben was taller than 5 feet. It sounded to me that Jack said neither when asked if it was a friend or family. But why would he be so upset about the person being dead?


----------



## Fraser+Dief

Some people need to hang around more dead people. It was a perfectly normal sized casket.

Great episode. Going to miss Tom, and I liked Charlie too. But that's the problem with prophecies, you make them self fulfilling. He easily could have survived. He only dies because he thinks he has to, and sacrifices himself.


----------



## betts4

You know, the other thing with this coffin, funeral service angle.

It has to be someone who was famous enough or have died in such a way as to justify a write up a obit or news story like the one that Jack ripped out of the paper. That is not a 'normal' obit. That is more a news story announces a death. On the Obituaries page, you get a lot of small notices of deaths and family and such and then a couple bigger newstory type obits that talk about a celebrity or professor or famous doctor or hero. 

The coffin definately did not look large. But there is no reason they would put a short man (like ben) in a small almost kid sized coffin. They would put him in a regular coffin.


----------



## wprager

Just re-watched it. The show has taken quite the brutal turn. The Losties blow up 7 of the Others, run over one with a minivan, break another's neck and shoot the last one in cold blood. Of course the Others are doing their best to keep up with the body count by killing two of their own. Then Locke kills Naomi -- whichever side she's on, and Destiny claims the Hobbit.

At this rate, maybe it *is* only Jack and Kate (and whoever Jxxxxx xxxtham is) that get off the Island.


----------



## TheGreyOwl

jwjody said:


> So is this future written in stone? I'm a little disappointed if it is, we know the ending and it isn't good.


I don't think the "future" was one possible future like some people are thinking. I think it was the present. The flashbacks were the island scenes. I took it as this already happened, not that it might. But that's just me.


----------



## TheGreyOwl

wprager said:


> Just re-watched it. The show has taken quite the brutal turn. The Losties blow up 7 of the Others, run over one with a minivan, break another's neck and shoot the last one in cold blood. Of course the Others are doing their best to keep up with the body count by killing two of their own. Then Locke kills Naomi -- whichever side she's on, and Destiny claims the Hobbit.
> 
> At this rate, maybe it *is* only Jack and Kate (and whoever Jxxxxx xxxtham is) that get off the Island.


This got me thinking...have the Others _ever _ killed a survivor? I don't they actually have. They've killed some of their own, and the survivors have killed some Others, survivors have killed other survivors, but I don't think the Others have ever killed a survivor, even though Ben has ordered it on more than one occassion (or pretended to). I'm wondering if that's significant in any way...


----------



## unixadm

jkeegan said:


> I'm on page 8 out of 12 (thread keeps growing!)..
> 
> So, what's kinda interesting to me is that we've just seen what's going to happen.. Not what _might_ happen, but what's _going_ to happen..
> 
> It's one thing if we see Desmond witness a flash of future events, because he can change them.. He saved Charlie several times.
> 
> ..but here, the only people that saw this future was(were?) us, the audience. We're not giving the characters new information, so nothing will change. Plus, its' been laid out to us as fact - they showed it to us.. This is what happens.
> 
> Interesting that some of the future that we see is trust-able, and that some of it isn't.
> 
> (unless it's the present, and the island is now all the past, but the anagram of the funeral place seems planted to answer that question for us now, rather than 9 months from now)
> 
> 9 months. Nice touch.


I'm still catching up...hope it's not a Smeek 

Your post got me thinking.....

If Jack is "remembering" the future while treking to the Radio Tower, then maybe that was a future caused when he did NOT make the call.....it was a future that came from a series of events where he listened to Ben.

Maybe the island events that created that future were that Charlie shuts off the jamming device and talks to Penny....and that Jack destroys Naomi's radio. It is Penny who eventually gets them rescued, but not before lots of bad things go down with Ben and the others, which the future Jack now blames himself for.

By making the call, he has now set into motion a chain of events that will change that future he is rememering.

My point of view has always been that the flashbacks were a memory of the person they were focusing on.....that we as the audience are "in their head" for those moments seeing what they are thinking about. I haven't viewed these flashbacks (and now the flash forward) as an audience only view of their past (or future). If my view of the flashbacks/flashforward is correct, then Jack has the power to change his future.


----------



## betts4

TheGreyOwl said:


> This got me thinking...have the Others _ever _ killed a survivor? I don't they actually have. They've killed some of their own, and the survivors have killed some Others, survivors have killed other survivors, but I don't think the Others have ever killed a survivor, even though Ben has ordered it on more than one occassion (or pretended to). I'm wondering if that's significant in any way...


Of course they have. Ethan killed Steve and almost kills Charlie. Goodwin killed Nathan. Those are two I can think of off the bat. They also had no qualms about shooting to kill when abducting Walt and blowing up the raft so it couldn't be used. There have been several times when the Others have shot at the Losties - meaning to kill but being stopped by TPTB and a plot twist. Danny was all set to kill Sawyer on at least two occasions. The men invading the camp in the last ep were shooting to kill. Maybe they haven't killed lots of losties, but they sure didn't hesitate.


----------



## zeppo2

Maybe my ears are playing tricks on me, but when I go back to the funeral home scene, I could swear that when asked "friend or family", Jack responds with "either." Does anyone else hear that, or is my recording glitchy?


----------



## eksimba

jwjody said:


> So will next season be fast forwards to show people dealing with being off the island?
> 
> J


That would be cool, similar to what they tried to do with The Nine.


----------



## Delta13

Charlie had to close the door to the jamming room from the inside. Someone already mentioned it, but I think it's been overlooked so far: Desmond was charging into the room. He heard Penny's voice and was shouting "Penny" - he was not trying to save Charlie at that point, he just wanted to talk to her. At any cost.

So ironically, it is Desmond who causes Charlie to die, and Charlie saves Desmond's life!  

And as for the scuba gear, let's face it, Charlie's would have malfunctioned on the way up. He WAS doomed, ya know. He found and embraced an acceptable death, far better than being the lightning rod.


----------



## getreal

getbak said:


> The word "Man" is the first thing in the headline and it's capitalized. There's definitely no "Wo" in front of it.
> 
> That is the only thing I can say I am sure about at this point.


My reference to the possibility of "woman" in the newspaper clipping was to the content of the article. Not the obviously legible heading where the word "Man" was clearly used.


----------



## jkeegan

(Made it to about 6 posts ago and happened to think of something.. didn't want to forget it, so I typed this reply in a different tab (minus this paragraph).. Then I went back and read the remaining 6 posts I hadn't read yet, and saw unixadm's post #541.. Decided to post what I'd written verbatim, with this paragraph before it all)

Just thought of something..

One question that's been regularly asked here over the years is whether people are actually experiencing these flashbacks (i.e. thinking about them) when we see them, or if we the audience are just given some magic narrator's view that the character on the island might not even have thought about or remembered..

Well, this episode alone showed us that Jack certainly didn't experience these (at least not if they're flash forwards).. Hmm, I wonder if the opposite is true - if the future Jack is remembering the scenes that we see from the island when we see them.. No.. The thing is, there were scenes that Jack wasn't in (like the scenes with Ben and Alex before they met up with the Losties), so I think the whole idea of "the future" being the present, and the island being flashbacks, is kinda debunked there (if it wasn't already from the hint of the anagram of the funeral parlor name).

Jack certainly didn't seem to say "hey.. wow, I anticipate being so depressed someday that I'm flying on Oceanic every Friday night looking for this island again.." while on the island..

So, if there's any symmetry here at all, and the next 3 seasons are flash forwards, then I'd say that IMHO all the flashbacks we've seen have been 100% for the benefit of the viewer, narration style, without any need at all for the person whose flashback it is to have been thinking about or even remember the flashback in question.

..Jeff


----------



## justapixel

wprager said:


> This whole rule hinges on your definition of spoiler. The event happened on the show and was confirmed in the interview. No spoiler, so the rule does not apply. It's clear as day to me, sorry.


I tend to agree with this.

The build-up to Charlie's death took place over the course of the season. The end was pretty convincing - even to when Aaron was crying on the beach at the moment Charlie drowned.

I don't think confirming what has happened so convincingly on the show is a spoiler. The spoiler would be if the report was that it was a fake, and Charlie really wasn't dead.

But, it's always nice to be safe and spoilerize anything.

Excellent episode, again. I'm intrigued to see that they may now be doing flash-fowards to their lives after the island. It makes me wonder how much island life will be left though - how they keep it going while we think they are about to be rescued.

I don't think Jack's regret was because anybody was left on the island. Ben and Locke said it wasn't time to leave the island, and Jack realized it after the fact, but I don't think the reason he now feels he should go back is so mundane as to have left somebody there. It has to do with some sort of unfinished, spiritual business, I think.

I can't guess who was in the coffin. The way Kate spit out "why would I want to go see him" I think Ben is a good guess. But, since we don't know what is going to happen, it could be anybody.

:up: :up: :up: for Lost. Can't wait until the season starts again.


----------



## Mike Wells

What a great episode!

Among all of the other notes (yes, I did read all 19 pages...)

I like how Desmond's vision was true, but not in the way they thought. IIRC, he said "You swim into the station, you flip a switch, you drown." The switch was actually the comm switch, not that keypad. 

Also, since everything else about Desmond's visions has been true, I'm assuming that we will shortly see Claire getting on a helicopter. Jack and Kate won't be the only ones off the island.

Ben went alone to meet the survivors because he had to. He had sent his best guys over to the beach to take the women, and after they got blowed up his best option were to use his jedi powers of persuasion to stop Jack and crew from using the walkie-talkie of doom.

In the coffin? The only ones who fit Kate's comment "Why would I come to his funeral?" comment would be Sawyer, Ben, or - maybe if some wierdness is going on - Jack himself. I can see Ben dying once he's off the island after being forcably removed somehow after Jack calls for help. Jack of course realizes Ben was right - that he just gave away the keys to Eden and can never go back. Not only that, but Ben got kicked out as well. His regret pushes him to his suicide attempt.


----------



## Rinkdog

We never saw Desmond's vision. Previously we were always shown the vision. Maybe we didn't see it because they did not want to reveal to much, or perhaps his vision did not show them getting rescued but it showed him flipping the switch and contacting Penny and the rescue was a ruse to get him to do it.


----------



## teknikel

With all the speculation of what would/should happen when the grenade opens the porthole, the important thing is that Charlie can only respond with the knowledge he has:

1. the grenade will/may cause a breach in the hull.
2. this is what is supposed to happen. He is supposed to die this way.
3. if he closes the hatch, he will protect Desmond.

I am sure there are many other thoughts he could have but, these seem to be the main ones and then of course he has only so much time to react. I can't see him thinking about the bends or whether the moon pool will fill slowly or not. Look at the debate here with all the smart people on this forum. Charlie is a musician with no military experience as far as I know. Maybe he knows something about diving but again, split second decisions must be made.

As it was filling, I thought about if it were me I would wait until pressure equalized, take one last breath and try to go through the porthole. But Charlie had other things on his mind like getting that message to Des. 

But now I will do some nitpicking. I don't know a lot about these things so I am asking: shouldn't the force of the explosion have affected Charlie in some way, e.g. knocked him down or out?


----------



## Bulldog7

Sirius Black said:


> I thought he said that they should have followed orders and killed them.


What you said....I heard the word "should" in there.


----------



## Martin Tupper

Mike Wells said:


> In the coffin? The only ones who fit Kate's comment "Why would I come to his funeral?" comment would be Sawyer, Ben, or - maybe if some wierdness is going on - Jack himself. I can see Ben dying once he's off the island after being forcably removed somehow after Jack calls for help. Jack of course realizes Ben was right - that he just gave away the keys to Eden and can never go back. Not only that, but Ben got kicked out as well. His regret pushes him to his suicide attempt.


IT wasn't "Why would I come to _his _funeral?" it was "Why would I come to _the _funeral?" It is possible that her comment was not a reflection of her disdain for the deceased, but of her unwillingness to bring up unpleasant memories. Perhaps she's simply struggling to put it behind her.


----------



## wprager

TheGreyOwl said:


> This got me thinking...have the Others _ever _ killed a survivor? I don't they actually have. They've killed some of their own, and the survivors have killed some Others, survivors have killed other survivors, but I don't think the Others have ever killed a survivor, even though Ben has ordered it on more than one occassion (or pretended to). I'm wondering if that's significant in any way...


Goodwin snapped the neck of one of the Tailies; Ethan killed Steve (or Scott); Ethan hanged Charlie showing clear intent; Ben shot Locke (OK, so maybe he just wanted to wing him); Ben manipulated quite a lot; Ben ordered Charlie to be killed. There may be others.


----------



## Martin Tupper

wprager said:


> Goodwin snapped the neck of one of the Tailies; Ethan killed Steve (or Scott); Ethan hanged Charlie showing clear intent; Ben shot Locke (OK, so maybe he just wanted to wing him); Ben manipulated quite a lot; Ben ordered Charlie to be killed. There may be others.


Tailies died battling the others. There was the one with a spear through him in the jungle.


----------



## Turtleboy

People who think that the Losties were "experiencing" the flashbacks are weird. What's up with that? Reading too much into it.

I bet in the next season we are going to be seeing a LOT of flashforwards, showing how different people are dealing with life after the Island, all talking about, and making vague references to things that hadn't happened yet in the series, and then we will get the "Aha!" moment when it does happen.

Oh, and I don't think it's Sawyer in the coffin. When she said, "I have to go back, or HE'LL wonder where I am," she's talking about Sawyer (or maybe Ben????).

I think it's Locke in the coffin.


----------



## buckeyenut

After 500+ posts, I may be smeeking; but, in reference to Jack's attempted suicide, perhaps it _was_ Ben that died and he was the only one that could navigate them (Kate/Jack/"Him"?) back to the island. Jack mentioned to Kate at the end that they "needed" or "had" to get back to the (island).

Maybe most of the losties are still on the island. Jack screwed up and made the call, only a few got out and Jack's primal NEED to save people has him on a quest to get back. Ben could have been his only link back to the island, now he's dead, and Jack can't get back, ever. Just my thoughts, probably already mentioned in this thread.

Can't wait for next season.


----------



## jmak

My Theory.

I don't think we saw the future or a flash forward with Jack and Kate. In a big twist I think we saw a dream (nightmare) Jack was having. The nightmare is a result of Jack making the call. This could help explain how Jack's father appeared to be alive.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Well, I'll repeat myself. My theory is that they're not about to get rescued; that at least the next season or two will be the Losties and the Others against Naomi's people; that the flash-backs have been permanently replaced by the flash-forwards, at least until they are rescued; and that much of the dramatic tension of the show will be reconciling what we are seeing in the present (on the island) with what we are seeing in the future (the flash-forwards).

When I first proposed this theory lo, so many hundreds of posts ago, I thought the rescue would be at the end of the series. Later, somebody suggested that they will get rescued at the end of the fourth or fifth season, and that the show would then shift again to the survivors trying to get back to the island to do...whatever it is that they didn't do. I like that, and hereby modify my theory to incorporate it.


----------



## jeffo13

A few quick things:

The bends would heal up pretty quick on the island. At least faster than a gut shot.

I am still not as convinced that Charlie is dead even with the offending "article". There would have been an air pocket in the room which could keep Charlie alive until Desmond could put on the SCUBA gear and swim out to the port hole with another tank for Charlie to use until they could get the door open.

With all of the clues so far, Michael makes the most sense being in the casket. He lived in NY, and both Jack and Kate have a reason to hate him. You might have to break his legs to fit him in the casket. The funeral home looked run down, so maybe Michael was having money problems and got a deal on a short casket.

I don't think the article in the newspaper was an obit, I think when Jack set down the paper on the seat you could see another unrelated article on the same page. I usually see the obits all on the same page. The article could be about a murder and not a suicide.

Jeff


----------



## Turtleboy

jeffo13 said:


> A few quick things:
> 
> The bends would heal up pretty quick on the island. At least faster than a gut shot.
> 
> I am still not as convinced that Charlie is dead even with the offending "article". There would have been an air pocket in the room which could keep Charlie alive until Desmond could put on the SCUBA gear and swim out to the port hole with another tank for Charlie to use until they could get the door open.
> 
> With all of the clues so far, Michael makes the most sense being in the casket. He lived in NY, and both Jack and Kate have a reason to hate him. You might have to break his legs to fit him in the casket. The funeral home looked run down, so maybe Michael was having money problems and got a deal on a short casket.
> 
> I don't think the article in the newspaper was an obit, I think when Jack set down the paper on the seat you could see another unrelated article on the same page. I usually see the obits all on the same page. The article could be about a murder and not a suicide.
> 
> Jeff


Except they're in LA. Not NY.


----------



## danplaysbass

What is TPTB ?


----------



## Fish Man

justapixel said:


> I don't think confirming what has happened so convincingly on the show is a spoiler. The spoiler would be if the report was that it was a fake, and Charlie really wasn't dead.
> 
> But, it's always nice to be safe and spoilerize anything.


Thanks for the official feedback, JAP. 

My personal policy in these threads is: If it came from an article, even if it states something about the plot of the show that many would consider to be bloody obvious, *SPOILERIZE*.

Maybe I was being anal, but that's where I was coming from on this issue.


----------



## thenightfly42

GadgetFreak said:


> Kate may have been given a new identity by Widmore or Widmore arranged to havethe charges dropped, but has something on her to blackmail her.


I believe that Kate is still a fugitive in the flash-forward, although I cannot figure out how she wasn't captured when they left the Island. My evidence:

1. Her voicemail did not have her name on it, just the generic message.
2. Jack never identified himself when calling her, just "it's me".
3. When Jack arranged the meeting with her, he didn't say where at the airport, just "you know the place", and he kept all the information pretty vague as well.

All this points to Kate still in hiding, but willing to meet up with Jack if necessary. Also, this may be part of the reason she did not attend the funeral - she might be caught if someone was watching for her.


----------



## Martin Tupper

Turtleboy said:


> Except they're in LA. Not NY.


Screencaps of the newspaper article indicate the deceased was from NY (and that he was a man, and he went by the name J*** ***ntham).


----------



## thenightfly42

Bananfish said:


> I don't think Jack is contemplating suicide because of the death of the person in the article, at least not principally. I think he is contemplating suicide *for the same reasons that the person in the article committed suicide*.


_Excellent_ observation, I hadn't considered this before but I believe it to be true.


----------



## mqpickles

jkeegan said:


> (Made it to about 6 posts ago and happened to think of something.. didn't want to forget it, so I typed this reply in a different tab (minus this paragraph).. Then I went back and read the remaining 6 posts I hadn't read yet, and saw unixadm's post #541.. Decided to post what I'd written verbatim, with this paragraph before it all)
> 
> Just thought of something..
> 
> One question that's been regularly asked here over the years is whether people are actually experiencing these flashbacks (i.e. thinking about them) when we see them, or if we the audience are just given some magic narrator's view that the character on the island might not even have thought about or remembered..
> 
> Well, this episode alone showed us that Jack certainly didn't experience these (at least not if they're flash forwards).. Hmm, I wonder if the opposite is true - if the future Jack is remembering the scenes that we see from the island when we see them.. No.. The thing is, there were scenes that Jack wasn't in (like the scenes with Ben and Alex before they met up with the Losties), so I think the whole idea of "the future" being the present, and the island being flashbacks, is kinda debunked there (if it wasn't already from the hint of the anagram of the funeral parlor name).
> 
> Jack certainly didn't seem to say "hey.. wow, I anticipate being so depressed someday that I'm flying on Oceanic every Friday night looking for this island again.." while on the island..
> 
> So, if there's any symmetry here at all, and the next 3 seasons are flash forwards, then I'd say that IMHO all the flashbacks we've seen have been 100% for the benefit of the viewer, narration style, without any need at all for the person whose flashback it is to have been thinking about or even remember the flashback in question.
> 
> ..Jeff


I've always thought the flashbacks were something in between: memories that are so hardwired into these people that they are part of their character makeup. I don't think that they're on the island spending 20 minutes recalling the details of conversations, etc. But I think they probably do flash on snippets of those memories, so it's more than just background to help the audience.

I'm sure Locke has replayed in his head over and over the moment his father pushed him out of that window, the moment that Helen broke it off with him, and the moment he was sitting in that wheelchair being told he couldn't go on the walkabout. I'm sure Sun sees Jae's face when he gives her that necklace, and remembers Jin washing the blood of his hands. ...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Fish Man said:


> My personal policy in these threads is: If it came from an article, even if it states something about the plot of the show that many would consider to be bloody obvious, *SPOILERIZE*.


To be blunt, this kind of attitude (and it's not just you) has really made TiVoCommunity a lot less fun over the past few years.

I remember the Spoiler Wars, when there was a heated debate over whether previews shown as part of a broadcast count as spoilers. I thought at the time the wrong side won because it's clear that they were intended to be seen with the show, but now I think the wrong side won because it set a "slippery slope" precedent which has made it increasingly difficult to just talk about a show without Spoiler Police jumping all over you for infractions which, as in this case, are often simply absurd.

My inclination at this time is to do a lot more lurking and a lot less posting. It's just not worth the aggravation.


----------



## wouldworker

danplaysbass said:


> What is TPTB ?


The Powers That Be.


----------



## chavez

The "him" Kate had to get back to was the son she had with Sawyer, who abandoned them. That's why she wasn't at Sawyer's funeral.


----------



## Turtleboy

Rob Helmerichs said:


> To be blunt, this kind of attitude (and it's not just you) has really made TiVoCommunity a lot less fun over the past few years.
> 
> I remember the Spoiler Wars, when there was a heated debate over whether previews shown as part of a broadcast count as spoilers. I thought at the time the wrong side won because it's clear that they were intended to be seen with the show, but now I think the wrong side won because it set a "slippery slope" precedent which has made it increasingly difficult to just talk about a show without Spoiler Police jumping all over you for infractions which, as in this case, are often simply absurd.
> 
> My inclination at this time is to do a lot more lurking and a lot less posting. It's just not worth the aggravation.


The problem is that too many people read bizzare things into the show that are just not there.


----------



## rondotcom

TRD_Dan said:


> Okay I made it to page 8 when this thought struck me, hopefully I'm without smeek.
> 
> When the window was blown out, I'm thinking the flow would actually go the other way. The air should rush out the window and the water would rush up through the moon pool, ala path of least resistance.
> 
> Thoughts?


If were dealing with rifts in the time/space continuum, smoke creatures, barely visible 400 year old Jacobs and guys who never age.... I'm pretty sure we're not writing episodes with a physics text book on the computer table.


----------



## tewcewl

Turtleboy said:


> The problem is that too many people read bizzare things into the show that are just not there.


Like two people who are naked in bed, but DIDN'T have sex.


----------



## Mike Farrington

In our cloudy view of the future I believe there are two possibilities of why Kate and Jack are off the island.

1) They were rescued. In which case I imagine our leaders would have been among the last to leave the island.

2) They were banished. Ben would have killed them to protect the island. But I bet Ben wasn't in charge, Locke was. Locke couldn't kill them, but he could banish the trouble-makers off the island knowing its damn near impossible for them to return. If not banished, they may have escaped the island to get help but could never find it again.

If scenario #1 was true, then Jack shouldn't have such a great need to return to the island. But if #2 was true, he'd want to get back to help is fellow castaways. Of course, if #2 were true you'd think Kate would also want to get back. I can't imagine that she's so wrapped up in being a fugitive that she doesn't want to get back. Or, she's realized now that its futile... there's no way back. She had to let it go or it would consume her, as it is consuming Jack.


----------



## Mike Farrington

Random collection of thoughts...

Ben's comment that "Every living person on the island will die"... I guess that means that Jacob would live on, but who else? Are all those who have died on the island living forever as spirits? Are they the whispers we hear helping the Others at times? Is Richard a spirit (or a smoke monster) that just prefers to keep human form most of the time?

Why is island breeding so important to the Others? Does island sperm contain more than just human genetic material? Is it part Jacob? Are they trying to create a human/Jacob hybrid, part of Jacob's plan to procreate? Would such a hybrid have four toes?


----------



## mqpickles

Rob Helmerichs said:


> To be blunt, this kind of attitude (and it's not just you) has really made TiVoCommunity a lot less fun over the past few years.
> 
> I remember the Spoiler Wars, when there was a heated debate over whether previews shown as part of a broadcast count as spoilers. I thought at the time the wrong side won because it's clear that they were intended to be seen with the show, but now I think the wrong side won because it set a "slippery slope" precedent which has made it increasingly difficult to just talk about a show without Spoiler Police jumping all over you for infractions which, as in this case, are often simply absurd.
> 
> My inclination at this time is to do a lot more lurking and a lot less posting. It's just not worth the aggravation.


And the hell of it is if you spoilerize something that may not need it, the spoiler police bite you for that too. Can't win.

As for the previews, I think there are enough people who don't watch them and don't want to know, that spoilerizing those is the polite thing to do.

I'm kind of on the fence about FishMan's point in this case. When I read the post, I thought that person was going to get bit, and if I were posting something like that, I would have spoilerized it. Particularly given that it was in the midst of a debate about the fate of that character, and the point of the post was to settle what at least some people felt was an open issue. (Me, I think Charlie's dead, and I knew before the ultrasound episode that Sun had had sex with Jae. More often than not, even on Lost, things are exactly what they appear to be.)

OTOH, I think there's a fundamental difference between restating something you saw and thereby confirming that it was what it appeared to be versus revealing that something you thought you saw wasn't really what it appeared to be.

E.g., if AAA has an interview now in which he says something about Eko being dead, I really don't think that's a spoiler. If he has an interview now and says Eko isn't really dead, that would be a huge spoiler. (These are made-up examples. AFAIK, AAA hasn't given any recent interviews talking about Eko's fate.)


----------



## hefe

thenightfly42 said:


> I believe that Kate is still a fugitive in the flash-forward, although I cannot figure out how she wasn't captured when they left the Island. My evidence:
> 
> 1. Her voicemail did not have her name on it, just the generic message.
> 2. Jack never identified himself when calling her, just "it's me".
> 3. When Jack arranged the meeting with her, he didn't say where at the airport, just "you know the place", and he kept all the information pretty vague as well.
> 
> All this points to Kate still in hiding, but willing to meet up with Jack if necessary. Also, this may be part of the reason she did not attend the funeral - she might be caught if someone was watching for her.


That could be true, but it is just as likely that those things were done simply to preserve the surprise that Jack was talking to Kate and it was the future.


----------



## ElJay

Fish Man said:


> My personal policy in these threads is: If it came from an article, even if it states something about the plot of the show that many would consider to be bloody obvious, *SPOILERIZE*.
> 
> Maybe I was being anal, but that's where I was coming from on this issue.


I think your spoiler standards are quite extreme, and if everybody felt this way a lot of good discussion that goes on here would be silenced. Under your standards, if an actor from the show died tomorrow, you would consider it to be a "spoiler" to post news articles about this.


----------



## Magister

Mike Wells said:


> Also, since everything else about Desmond's visions has been true, I'm assuming that we will shortly see Claire getting on a helicopter. Jack and Kate won't be the only ones off the island.


Remember, only 90 days have passed in Lost time. I am not certain that we will see the helicopter shortly. It might only be a little time lost-wise though..

Then I start thinking, what if the 'Not Penny's Boat' people have the heli?

Ahh... still a lot of fun in this episode.


----------



## philw1776

Martin Tupper said:


> Screencaps of the newspaper article indicate the deceased was from NY (and that he was a man, and he went by the name J*** ***ntham).


Screencaps CAN be misleading. I remember seeing Ben show Juliette a medical report on her sister that under HDTV hi-res screencap referred to a male, not a female. There IS such a thing as production error and continuity error even in the best of shows. In this case I think the screencap is just what was intended but some degree of skepticism is warranted.


----------



## Mike Farrington

philw1776 said:


> Screencaps CAN be misleading. I remember seeing Ben show Juliette a medical report on her sister that under HDTV hi-res screencap referred to a male, not a female. There IS such a thing as production error and continuity error even in the best of shows. In this case I think the screencap is just what was intended but some degree of skepticism is warranted.


The medical record could have been that of her unborn son? Either way, I agree. For all we know, the obscured headline could have read "Man Found Woman Dead In Loft" or something. After all, the article did go on to apparently interview the person who found the body.


----------



## lodica1967

No mention about the code possibly being created by Charlie in a previous time loop. He was able to figure it out pretty quickly!

I am thinking he created the original code in a previous timeline/reality. They used the vague, it was created by a "musician". Somehow he knew he would need the code and made it something he could crack.


----------



## rbraddes

I haven't seen any posts about this yet, but I believe that Alex and Ben had a conversation on the way to intercept Jack & the beach folk regarding the purpose of their trip...

Didn't Ben say they were going to meet Alex's new family, or something like that?


----------



## Mike Farrington

lodica1967 said:


> No mention about the code possibly being created by Charlie in a previous time loop. He was able to figure it out pretty quickly!
> 
> I am thinking he created the original code in a previous timeline/reality. They used the vague, it was created by a "musician". Somehow he knew he would need the code and made it something he could crack.


I've often though along the same lines... That the losties are their own ancestors in some way. Maybe Charlie created the code. Maybe Jack and Kate are Adam and Eve.


----------



## Mike Farrington

rbraddes said:


> Didn't Ben say they were going to meet Alex's new family, or something like that?


He said something like: "Don't you want to see Karl?", letting Alex know that he knows what she has done.


----------



## bruinfan

jwjody said:


> So will next season be fast forwards to show people dealing with being off the island?
> 
> J


yes, in addition, every team will have to complete a road block, which only one member of the team may perform.

in this road block, a team member must paddle a canoe 400 ft following a cable in the ocean. they must then free dive 60 ft underwater, find the moon pool, beat up some hot chicks, figure out a code using a famous song, flip a switch, and drown. once the team member is dead, he will receive his next clue.

if the show only uses flashforwards... that would kind of suck, for 2 reasons

1: the flashbacks, as someone mentioned, were creative storytelling tools that helped explain the character's makeup and helped drive current decisions/actions... of course, if they were forward in time... they could do that by keeping the future as the reference, and the island was flashback

2: we'll never find out how libby ended up in the looney bin with hurley.


----------



## Mike Farrington

While I think flash-forwards would intrigue the rabid fans (those that read threads like this), I think it would alienate, confuse, and frustrate the uninitiated. I'd hate to see ratings suffer.


----------



## TheGreyOwl

I know they have had intent to kill them, I was just thinking they had never suceeded. I forgot about the ones a couple of people mentioned, though. Steve/Scott and Nathan. I don't remember those, but I'll take your word for it.  Either way, though...none of the major character's deaths have been caused by the Others. I still find that interesting.



wprager said:


> Goodwin snapped the neck of one of the Tailies; Ethan killed Steve (or Scott); Ethan hanged Charlie showing clear intent; Ben shot Locke (OK, so maybe he just wanted to wing him); Ben manipulated quite a lot; Ben ordered Charlie to be killed. There may be others.


----------



## ironchef

Mike Farrington said:


> Why is island breeding so important to the Others? Does island sperm contain more than just human genetic material? Is it part Jacob? Are they trying to create a human/Jacob hybrid, part of Jacob's plan to procreate? Would such a hybrid have four toes?


If everyone who tried to have a baby died, your population is in decline. Breeding becomes very important when you can't.


----------



## tanstaafl

bruinfan said:


> yes, in addition, every team will have to complete a road block, which only one member of the team may perform.
> 
> in this road block, a team member must paddle a canoe 400 ft following a cable in the ocean. they must then free dive 60 ft underwater, find the moon pool, beat up some hot chicks, figure out a code using a famous song, flip a switch, and drown. once the team member is dead, he will receive his next clue.


OK, you owe me a keyboard. Plus an explanation for my coworkers.


----------



## aintnosin

Squeak said:


> How is Jack able to fly Oceanic Air? The website they put up after season 1 says they shut down after the crash of Flight 815:
> 
> http://oceanic-air.com/


Even if Oceanic shut down, they still have planes, routes and other assets that would be bought up by one or more airlines. I'm guessing the "golden ticket" came from whoever took over Oceanic.

Besides, even an airline in really sad shape take a long time to go out of business.

That leads to two possibilities:


The airline was already on the brink of failure before flight 815 (Remember, every time that something bad happens to a plane on TV or the movies, it's usually an Oceanic flight! "Executive Decision" anyone? No wonder the company is in bad shape!

The airline was deliberately shut down by Hanso/Dharma (I seem to remember they had something to do with the airline) as part of a cover-up.

Re: charlie's death. I think story logic was sacrificed to give Dom a dramatic exit. The scene would have made more sense if he had been killed instantly, but that wouldn't have made for a good death scene.

Of course, Charlie has also died twice, making him the "Buffy" of the Losties. So, if Alyson Hannigan shows up with Naomi's people, expect him to make another comeback. 

I guess another big question would be: are the people who were healed by the island permanently cured? Does Locke go back to the wheelchair. Does Rose die of cancer?

Is it February yet?


----------



## brianp6621

I 'll jump in here and say that I am pretty much in agreement with Fish Man.

After the episode I was completely convinced that Charlie was dead but also completely unconvinced he would stay that way. That is the nature of this show.

I don't even consider a 5 second shot of him drifting confirming him dead. So he went unconscious. People have been revived after FAR longer in real life.

As has been pointed out we have seem MANY resurrections, including ALL the losties as none of them should have survived the original plane crash. 

So if the Losties can survive a plane breaking up mid flight, Mikhail multiple massive injuries, Charlie being hanged, Locke being shot, Locke, Desmond and Eko being blown up in the hatch, then it isn't remotely conceivable that someone who drowned couldn't be easily saved in a conventional way OR resurrected Lost style? 

If you think either of these aren't plausible on this show, you haven't been watch the same show as Fish and I.

Contract spoilers on a person who may or may not have just left the show (even if he did leave, this just happened, it isn't like we've been stewing over this for half a season, how were we to know it wasn't part of a the finale cliff hanger??) should not be allowed in these threads (wait, they aren't allowed per the rules)


----------



## NoThru22

Some things I'd like to point out from reading this thread:

There is no runway. Juliet admitted she didn't know what the Others were doing with the rocks.

As pointed out, the person who died was from NY and found dead in LA. I'm not sure we can use the article's contents as canon, but the name could easily be an alias for someone we know, for whatever reason.

I don't think the coffin was supposed to look small.

I still say there won't be any time travel. The events on the island will lead up to what we've seen, and there won't be any changing of it. We may not even reach this point by the end of next season.

It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for us not to see present day again for a while, but there will probably be flash forwards from now on.


----------



## MacThor

Rinkdog said:


> We never saw Desmond's vision. Previously we were always shown the vision. Maybe we didn't see it because they did not want to reveal to much, or perhaps his vision did not show them getting rescued but it showed him flipping the switch and contacting Penny and the rescue was a ruse to get him to do it.


I believe we only _saw_ Desmond's vision of Charlie getting an arrow through the neck. They didn't show Charlie drown or get electrocuted, either.

I think the producers wouldn't want to lessen the emotional impact of Charlie's death scene by showing it in a "flash" beforehand.


----------



## Mike Farrington

MacThor said:


> I believe we only _saw_ Desmond's vision of Charlie getting an arrow through the neck. They didn't show Charlie drown or get electrocuted, either.
> 
> I think the producers wouldn't want to lessen the emotional impact of Charlie's death scene by showing it in a "flash" beforehand.


Bingo.


----------



## NatasNJ

I can't see the show switching to flash forwards. Lets say they do that and then continue as current day on the island shots. Well the flash forwards will be giving away the results on the island. (aka who is alive/dead etc...) They might throw in one or two but I doubt it goes to ALL flash forwards. 

I see the season 4 as The Others/losties/Ship playing out for half the season and possibly getting off the island by seasons end. 

Season 5 being them OFF the island where Season 3 ended in flash forward and possibly trying to get back to island of some sort. 

Season 6 being back on island. 

Not sure they have the nerve to try and do a whole SEASON off island but it would be cool. So the more I think about it the more I think it will go back to business as usual until maybe the LAST half of the final season.


----------



## johnmoorejohn

I agree with someone's theory here that Charlie was just trying to prevent Desmond from going into the room to talk to penny, because that would have killed him. And at that point he decided it was better for him to die than Desmond. For some reason I also thought that if he had ran out of the room to close it from the other side, Desmond would have made it into the room?

Any chance that Jack wants to go back because he actually has an illness to cure? Could this also be why he was strung up on pain killers? Taking them innocently at first, but then getting addicted. So he spent all his time getting off the island, but the island was where he belonged, because he had a disease the whole time. And perhaps Kate didn't know that he had that illness?

Also, any chance that jumping off the bridge would send him back to the island, like Desmonds cycle?


----------



## MacThor

Fish Man said:


> Crazy theory time...
> 
> This is one of those "I'm not sure I really believe this, but I'm throwing it out there" theories...
> 
> I've previously proposed that one of the few (or the only) stations that Dharma retained tenuous control of was "The Swan", and that Ben and his people didn't understand its significance. The evidence being that Ben didn't seem to be impressed with the importance of "pushing the button" and he didn't seem to have any clue as to what caused "the sky to turn purple".
> 
> This new theory is that Ben knew exactly what The Swan hatch was for, and it was _in fact a BS test of the people in it. Pushing the button was, in fact, not doing anything!!_
> 
> The "effect" of the "implosion" and the sky turning purple was a special effect the Ben, himself, orchestrated!!
> 
> Ben's people weren't in on any of this, only Ben.
> 
> Evidence for this new theory: We now know that "the sky turning purple" *has nothing whatsoever to do with the loss of contact with the outside world! Ben is (was) jamming the frequencies!* But he's keeping this jamming a secret from *most of his own people!* (Most of them think "The Looking Glass" is flooded and inoperable.)
> 
> Discuss.


OK, I'll bite.

The producers have debunked the idea that pushing the button did nothing. Failure to execute is the definitive reason 815 crashed and for the implosion, purple sky etc. Unless you are saying that Ben somehow rigged it so that the numbers/button, which previously did nothing for Dharma, caused all these things?  He couldn't have known Desmond was going to fail and was nowhere near the Swan when both of the EMP events we've seen took place.

Yes, the communications being out was an _after-_effect that Ben orchestrated. I think he realized (or Jacob told him, or his off-island resources did) that the purple sky event made the island coordinates visible, albeit briefly, to the "bad guys" and he needed to seal off the island.

Also, as I've previously stated, I think Dharma retained control of "The Pearl," at least for a while, post-purge. This would neatly explain -- and the writers will never have to spell it out for us -- why all of those tubes with the journal entries wound up in the field--the Dharma-ite tasked with collecting them had been killed, but the people inside were unaware. It's very conceivable that Ben and the "hostiles" were not privy to the function of the hatches at the time of the purge. Nor could they raid them because they could be secured from the inside.


----------



## danterner

Rob Helmerichs said:


> My inclination at this time is to do a lot more lurking and a lot less posting. It's just not worth the aggravation.


I hope you ignore your inclination, then - your posts are one of the reasons I frequent the forum.



lodica1967 said:


> No mention about the code possibly being created by Charlie in a previous time loop. He was able to figure it out pretty quickly!
> 
> I am thinking he created the original code in a previous timeline/reality. They used the vague, it was created by a "musician". Somehow he knew he would need the code and made it something he could crack.


I actually like this thought quite a bit, since while watching the whole "our computer system was designed by a musician" line just seemed to be too... convenient. It'd be nice if TPTB were actually setting a hook for a plot point to be revealed later on down the line.

Having (finally) read all of the posts on this thread (well, okay, I skimmed some of the spoiler-wars ones), I feel like I should be planting a flag at the summit of the thread now, or something.


----------



## mqpickles

Mike Farrington said:


> The medical record could have been that of her unborn son? Either way, I agree. For all we know, the obscured headline could have read "Man Found Woman Dead In Loft" or something. After all, the article did go on to apparently interview the person who found the body.


Nah, re medical record. It also gave a height and weight that clearly indicate an adult. I want to say 5'11" and like 190 lbs, but I may be wrong about that. It was such that it would be a slightly bigger than average adult male, a pretty darn big woman, but no way is it an unborn child. Unless you're saying it's Juliet's unborn nephew's future medical records, in which case why would Ben give that to Juliet to prove that her sister's cancer had returned?

I'm going with production error on the medical chart.

It must be exhausting to be in the props dep't on this show.


----------



## MacThor

danterner said:


> I hope you ignore your inclination, then - your posts are one of the reasons I frequent the forum.


I agree. While I see both sides of the issue, the spoiler police can get a little too intense. Lost is the only show I watch religiously (twice a week!); I didn't think there was any ambiguity in the death, and there was no "spoiler" there IMO. I, for one, was grateful for the link to the article, which made some great points outside of the ones quoted on the forum.


----------



## Mike Farrington

mqpickles said:


> Nah, re medical record. It also gave a height and weight that clearly indicate an adult. I want to say 5'11" and like 190 lbs, but I may be wrong about that. It was such that it would be a slightly bigger than average adult male, a pretty darn big woman, but no way is it an unborn child. Unless you're saying it's Juliet's unborn nephew's future medical records, in which case why would Ben give that to Juliet to prove that her sister's cancer had returned?
> 
> I'm going with production error on the medical chart.
> 
> It must be exhausting to be in the props dep't on this show.


In all honesty, when I first saw Juliet's sister, I thought Juliet was really trying to get her transvestite brother pregnant (until they mentioned cancer). 

I seriously thought she was a man the first time I saw her.


----------



## NatasNJ

Has anyone looked into the person JACK saved being Juliette's sister? 
Anyway to confirm on imdb or something?


----------



## rimler

Fish Man said:


> Thanks for the official feedback, JAP.
> 
> My personal policy in these threads is: If it came from an article, even if it states something about the plot of the show that many would consider to be bloody obvious, *SPOILERIZE*.
> 
> Maybe I was being anal, but that's where I was coming from on this issue.


Soooo.........you will give it a rest now?


----------



## MacThor

NoThru22 said:


> Some things I'd like to point out from reading this thread:
> 
> There is no runway. Juliet admitted she didn't know what the Others were doing with the rocks.


Actually, this they left pretty ambiguous. She said "I don't know what for." She could have been addressing Sawyer's first question, about breaking the rocks, or his second, "A runway? What for?"

She sure seemed more sarcastic with her second response.

So, she either didn't know why they were breaking rocks, or she didn't know what the runway was for. Another Lost mystery.


----------



## Martin Tupper

NatasNJ said:


> Has anyone looked into the person JACK saved being Juliette's sister?
> Anyway to confirm on imdb or something?


They gave the last name of the woman he saved when he was talking with the new chief of surgery...but alas I can't remember it right now.


----------



## Fish Man

mqpickles said:


> I'm kind of on the fence about FishMan's point in this case. When I read the post, I thought that person was going to get bit, and if I were posting something like that, I would have spoilerized it. Particularly given that it was in the midst of a debate about the fate of that character, and the point of the post was to settle what at least some people felt was an open issue. (Me, I think Charlie's dead, and I knew before the ultrasound episode that Sun had had sex with Jae. More often than not, even on Lost, things are exactly what they appear to be.)


Something I haven't made clear:

I'm 100% positive Charlie's dead too, and I was from the instant I saw that scene. (Before I had any awareness of the interview in question.)

However, right here, in this thread a raging debate was underway as to whether Charlie was *really* dead.

So, someone on the "he's dead" side, *the same side I'm on, I repeat again...* posts a quote from an *ARTICLE* made by *the actor* who plays him for the express reason of trying to win the "he's dead" argument.

This quote required a spoiler, IMHO. No grey area.

Our moderator indicated it was a borderline case, at best for requiring a spoiler, and of course, I defer to her opinion.

However given the *context* in which the information was posted (trying to "be the winner" of a debate on the fate of a character, regardless how stupid you thought that debate to be) and the *source* of the information (an article), I really feel this was a textbook example of *why* the spoilerization rule I quoted exists in the first place.


----------



## hefe

Another board has posted the supposed full text of the newspaper article from a supposed inside source.

Spoilered for your convenience. (Although I think it really gives nothing away anyway.)


Spoiler



The body of John Lantham of New York was found shortly after 4 am in the 4300 block of Grand Avenue.

Ted Worden, a doorman at the Tower Lofts complex, heard loud noises coming from the victim's loft.

Concerned for tenants' safety, he entered the loft and found the body hanging from a beam in the living room.

According to Jaime Ortiz, a police spokesman, the incident was deemed a suicide after medical tests. Latham (sic) is survived by one teenaged son.

Memorial services will be held at the Hoffs-Drawlar Funeral Home tomorrow evening."


----------



## ironchef

rimler said:


> Soooo.........you will give it a rest now?


Or at least take it to a separate thread....


----------



## Fish Man

ElJay said:


> I think your spoiler standards are quite extreme, and if everybody felt this way a lot of good discussion that goes on here would be silenced. Under your standards, if an actor from the show died tomorrow, you would consider it to be a "spoiler" to post news articles about this.


Extreme? LOL

The irony is, I've been on the receiving end of spoiler police (for not spoilerizing), myself.

Context: A debate is raging about the fate of a character (and, therefore, whether that character will be on the show next season).

To win the above described debate, someone posts *something from an ARTICLE* quoting the actors inside insight as to the answer to the debate.

Not extreme at all. The spoiler rules clearly and unambiguously say that information about stuff in future episodes, that comes from ARTICLES is to be spoilerized. This was *EXACTLY* that.

An actor dying in real life is a completely different case. This is news, that affects the show, to be sure, but it's not a revealing of the writer's "secrets" as the item here was.


----------



## jubrand

I vote from now on we spoilerize arguments about spoilers.


----------



## MacThor

The woman in the car wreck's last name was "Arlen." I don't believe that's Rachel's name.


----------



## hefe

MacThor said:


> The woman in the car wreck's last name was "Arlen." I don't believe that's Rachel's name.


Rachel Carlson.


----------



## Fish Man

rimler said:


> Soooo.........you will give it a rest now?


Or, I could be an a-hole and litter these threads with quotes from the actors and writers with spoilers from future episodes because no-one seems to care to follow the rules anymore. (I wouldn't actually do that, of course.)

I couldn't give a crap one way or another. I tend to highlight and read all spoilers anyway.

But, I guarantee, if I'd posted the *exact same quote* I'd probably have been banned from the forum for awhile.

The enforcement is very inconsistent.


----------



## NatasNJ

Dude. Posting an article about a character leaving the show after in the FINALE he dies is fair game. The rules might not be 100% ontop of that but enough already.


----------



## hefe

I support Fish Man.

And not just because he thinks I'm really smart.


----------



## danterner

So, did anyone else catch that Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse (or at least their voices) had cameos?

I'm pretty sure it was Damon's voice as the pilot, in the scene at the beginning when Jack is in the plane. And Carlton was the television reporter talking about the bridge incident in the scene where Jack sees the accident victim's son, outside the ER.


----------



## MacThor

OK, after the second viewing more theories and questions:

I definitely believe Ben's fear of contacting the "bad guys" is genuine. He wasn't manipulating Jack into making the call with his "opposite" trick (the trick he'd used on Locke to blow up the sub).

Isn't it possible that Penny wouldn't know who Naomi is, but Naomi is still part of the merc group that Penny hired?...kind of an "I don't care how you find him, or who you use to find him, just do it and spare no expense." After all, Naomi did know who Penny was.

BUT.........if Naomi's job was specifically to rescue Desmond, shouldn't she have insisted he be part of the exodus? I mean, of the five people who stay behind, why allow the person you're there for be one?

Once Ben found out about Naomi shouldn't the Others' priority be to get Naomi or that phone instead of going after the pregnant women? (Edit: perhaps he thought the Looking Glass would render it moot)

Ben's bluff at the climax: Why would that work? If Jack doesn't call your bluff you get the phone. But _whether you actually shoot Sayid, Jin & Bernard or fake it doesn't matter_, you're not getting the phone either way, and are much more likely to pi** him off and get your a** kicked.


----------



## brianp6621

NatasNJ said:


> Dude. Posting an article about a character leaving the show after in the FINALE he dies is fair game. The rules might not be 100% ontop of that but enough already.


Your point makes no sense. It wasn't a series finale, it was a season finale. So it is ok to spoil something(and the only way we know if it was a spoiler or not is because of the content of the spoiler) because the show won't be on for a while? If in fact this was meant to a part of the cliffhanger, this would be the WORST possible time to spoil something.

And as the thread shows, not everyone was convinced that he was dead and would stay dead.

I get that the original poster may not have though about it enough to spoilerize it and it was a mistake but everyone else making it a clear cut case that Charlie was dead and there is no other possible alternative are being a bit close minded.


----------



## Charlutz

I'm a pretty heavy spoiler cop myself, but this debate is interesting. Err on the side of caution maybe? With a good intro to a spoiler tag like "this came from an article quoting DM about his role" everybody would have been happy. Anyway it reminds me of a similar situation that played out on another board, though it was far less contentious. It involved the most recent season of Battlestar Galactica:



Spoiler



When Starbuck died by piloting her viper into the radiation field or whatever it was, people quoted some articles that said she wanted off the show because she didn't like what they had done to her character. Seemed perfectly believable at the time because the change in her character last season was a particularly troublesome point for a lot of fans. Then, she all of a sudden shows up in the finale alive and well. So were the articles saying she wanted off the show a big misdirection?



As it's gotten more and more obvious that the people writing these shows pay attention to message boards, it's become clear that they can use them to set up the audience. When does the fourth wall disappear? The spoiler rules are there for a reason, but it's gotten harder to apply them uniformly where we have the producers messing with fans, podcasts, online comics (Heroes), webisodes (BSG), video games that fill in the time between seasons (24) and the like that push the envelope of what is part of the show and what is extra.

I don't think I have solved the issue, but merely wanted to point out that the new era of multimedia tv watching has created some interesting scenarios. We should all be understanding that the lines are blurred and reasonable minds can differ.


----------



## brianp6621

Charlutz said:


> I'm a pretty heavy spoiler cop myself, but this debate is interesting. Err on the side of caution maybe?


Exactly, I think that is all that is being asked.


----------



## MacThor

Rob is right, though, that the overly-spoiler-sensitive make the boards a lot less fun. Someone got all "bunchy" in another Lost thread when I mentioned untagged that _a guest star - not even a regular cast member_ - not involved in any kind of _cliffhanger_ or _spoilery situation_ was in the cast of _a new show, on an unnamed network_. What are they going to do, avoid that information from September all the way until February when Lost returns? Write an angrily-worded letter to the _network_ about how they "ruined" Lost for them by casting _this person_? We don't even have any idea how it affects this _guest character_ on Lost at all!


----------



## lodica1967

brianp6621 said:


> Exactly, I think that is all that is being asked.


Exactly! If the article had said he was coming back, I think even more people would be upset. For those of us that thought/think what is dead on Lost isn't/ doesn't always stay dead, the article was a big spoiler.

Just like those of you who are sure he is dead would have been upset to hear the actor says signed for another season.

It exactly the same!

It was EXTERNAL info and should not have been posted.

JMHO and I know a Mod already decided on this issue but I think she was wrong in the instance.


----------



## brianp6621

MacThor said:


> Rob is right, though, that the overly-spoiler-sensitive make the boards a lot less fun. Someone got all "bunchy" in another Lost thread when I mentioned untagged that _a guest star - not even a regular cast member_ - not involved in any kind of _cliffhanger_ or _spoilery situation_ was in the cast of _a new show, on an unnamed network_. What are they going to do, avoid that information from September all the way until February when Lost returns? Write an angrily-worded letter to the _network_ about how they "ruined" Lost for them by casting _this person_? We don't even have any idea how it affects this _guest character_ on Lost at all!


Of course, I have seen the extreme cases too. This is not one of them.


----------



## mqpickles

Mike Farrington said:


> In all honesty, when I first saw Juliet's sister, I thought Juliet was really trying to get her transvestite brother pregnant (until they mentioned cancer).
> 
> I seriously thought she was a man the first time I saw her.


You're not the only one, and I thought of that discussion when the issue with the medical chart came up. (Just left that to the side for my last post though.)


----------



## Mike Farrington

MacThor said:


> The woman in the car wreck's last name was "Arlen." I don't believe that's Rachel's name.


I'm not saying that its her but Rachael Carlson has had plenty of time to get married between the flashback and the flash-forward.


----------



## DevdogAZ

lodica1967 said:


> Exactly! If the article had said he was coming back, I think even more people would be upset. For those of us that thought/think what is dead on Lost isn't/ doesn't always stay dead, the article was a big spoiler.
> 
> Just like those of you who are sure he is dead would have been upset to hear the actor says signed for another season.
> 
> It exactly the same!
> 
> It was EXTERNAL info and should not have been posted.
> 
> JMHO and I know a Mod already decided on this issue but I think she was wrong in the instance.


Except that if the show intended there to be any question as to Charlie's status, they wouldn't allow him to make any comments about his contract status. So whether we read about it in an article, or hear the producers confirm it in a podcast, or something else, the fact that they're clearly releasing the info and want the fans to be informed about it indicates that it's information that should be posted in this thread.


----------



## audioscience

Smeeking because I can't read through all 21 pages...

Did anyone else notice how when Jack introduces himself to the new Chief of Surgery the Chief says, "Dr. Shepard, the hero - twice over."

I would take that to imply that he was hailed a hero after leaving the island, maybe for leading the rescue and now again for saving the woman and her kid from the car accident. Possibly that is why Jack sports a beard now, so people don't notice him after being a "hero" from the flight 815 incident. Like when Jack was in the pharmacy and the man behind him recognized him as the hero from TV who saved that woman's life.

Just another interesting point I thought.


----------



## wprager

So, assuming that full text of the newspaper obit was correct,


Spoiler



who the heck is John Lantham


? The first name clearly leads you to think of one particular person, but as far as we know that particular character did not have


Spoiler



a teen-aged son


. As much as I hate to admit it, it's beginning to sound more and more like


Spoiler



the person in the casket is a character we have not yet met.



And that will make a lot of people upset.


----------



## flyersfan

I missed a couple days and came back to controversy in the thread. Frankly, this is all ridiculous. It's clear the spoiler police have no interest in actually discussing the show. I posted a part of the interview because no matter how blatantly obvious the actual scene was, some people insist on arguing for argument's sake. 

I agree with Rob - trying to engage in any discussion in this forum has become pointless. I was always more of a lurker in here anyway, but at this point I'll just find something better to do with my time.


----------



## wprager

flyersfan said:


> I missed a couple days and came back to controversy in the thread. Frankly, this is all ridiculous. It's clear the spoiler police have no interest in actually discussing the show. I posted a part of the interview because no matter how blatantly obvious the actual scene was, some people insist on arguing for argument's sake.
> 
> I agree with Rob - trying to engage in any discussion in this forum has become pointless. I was always more of a lurker in here anyway, but at this point I'll just find something better to do with my time.


May I suggest the Stanley Cup Finals? They start on Monday.

Oh ... _flyersfan_ ... I see, never mind.


----------



## Turtleboy

MacThor said:


> Rob is right, though, that the overly-spoiler-sensitive make the boards a lot less fun. Someone got all "bunchy" in another Lost thread when I mentioned untagged that _a guest star - not even a regular cast member_ - not involved in any kind of _cliffhanger_ or _spoilery situation_ was in the cast of _a new show, on an unnamed network_. What are they going to do, avoid that information from September all the way until February when Lost returns? Write an angrily-worded letter to the _network_ about how they "ruined" Lost for them by casting _this person_? We don't even have any idea how it affects this _guest character_ on Lost at all!


If people weren't so silly in reading crap into the show it wouldn't even be a spoiler.

It's clear as day that Charlie died. It wasn't a cliffhanger, it wasn't open. It happened, and only the people in bizzaro world weren't sure.

Posting an article saying that he's leaving the show or confirming that he was dead isn't a spoiler at all, except to people who are looking for htings that aren't there.


----------



## hefe

wprager said:


> And that will make a lot of people upset.


I don't see why it should.


----------



## DevdogAZ

audioscience said:


> Smeeking because I can't read through all 21 pages...


Not singling you out, but I've seen this multiple times in this thread. Do people not know that you can go into the User CP portion of the forum and change the way the pages display so that there are up to 50 posts per page? I find it much easier to read threads when they're broken up less often by page breaks and I'm always amazed when people reference a page number that is so much higher than it needs to be.


----------



## bruinfan

danterner said:


> Having (finally) read all of the posts on this thread (well, okay, I skimmed some of the spoiler-wars ones), I feel like I should be planting a flag at the summit of the thread now, or something.


5 hours later... need a new flag


----------



## Delta13

audioscience said:


> Smeeking because I can't read through all 21 pages...
> 
> Did anyone else notice how when Jack introduces himself to the new Chief of Surgery the Chief says, "Dr. Shepard, the hero - twice over."
> 
> I would take that to imply that he was hailed a hero after leaving the island, maybe for leading the rescue and now again for saving the woman and her kid from the car accident. Possibly that is why Jack sports a beard now, so people don't notice him after being a "hero" from the flight 815 incident. Like when Jack was in the pharmacy and the man behind him recognized him as the hero from TV who saved that woman's life.
> 
> Just another interesting point I thought.


I sorta thought that the Twice A Hero thing was mentioned well, twice, but I could be wrong. It was obviously a nod to Jack's getting off the island without clearing stating it and ruining the flashforward.

It seems pretty obvious that a few got off the island, but maybe only a few. The "lie" is the cover story of being heroes. I think that something bad happened after the phone call to the ship. I think many may have died, just as Ben said, and the cover story built to hide it. And the island itself was "lost".

So, he's a hero but Jack knows he screwed up and that's killing him. Hence, the drugs and drinking. He's haunted - his "Forgive me" while standing on the bridge was about his actions in the past, not his suicide. Kate got a free deal out of it, probably. She's not on the run - she was driving a really nice Volvo. Except for Mr Casket Man, we don't know what happened to anyone else.

I don't think future Jack is how the show ends. I think it gets odder than that. I think it's an dead timeline. I think Jack goes back, just as he says, but in *time AND space*. To the point of the finale, and changes what he does so he can change the future. Save everyone and himself.

It's why Locke said, "You're not supposed to do this."

I'm still in the camp of those who think the series finale has to end with the rescue of the Lostaways. This way, that still happens.


----------



## stellie93

My theory is that Lost will always take place on the island with whatever direction of flashes and a big rescue at the end, with some going and some staying. THEN we will be treated to a sequel of a different name about Losties out in the real world--some of them trying to get back for whatever reason. It will probably bomb. 

I like the theory that the Looking Glass is a portal to somewhere or sometime. Narnia, Oz, whatever. And Charlie's there. (mostly because I really hate to see him die)

I seems like Naomi must have been sent by someone who knew about Penny and Desmond and used the picture to gain their trust and convince them they weren't connected to the others. Penny's Dad is the most likely suspect.

I think Annie must have died pregnant with Ben's baby, as careless teenage lovers. Hence his treatment of poor Carl. 

This is probably a dumb question, but I don't remember when they lost all their guns. Why did they have to borrow guns to blast the dynamite?


----------



## mqpickles

devdogaz said:


> Not singling you out, but I've seen this multiple times in this thread. Do people not know that you can go into the User CP portion of the forum and change the way the pages display so that there are up to 50 posts per page? I find it much easier to read threads when they're broken up less often by page breaks and I'm always amazed when people reference a page number that is so much higher than it needs to be.


Anyway, my advice would be not to pre-apologize for a smeek. There's a chance you won't smeek at all, and a chance that it will go unnoticed among 600+ posts (that does happen sometimes).

If you do get caught, then apologize, and play dumb ("Oops, sorry, I must have missed/overlooked/forgotten that post/page.") Or figure out a way that it's not really a smeek so you don't have to apologize. ("The previous poster said the sky was lavendar, but I said it was lilac.")


----------



## mqpickles

stellie93 said:


> My theory is that Lost will always take place on the island with whatever direction of flashes and a big rescue at the end, with some going and some staying. THEN we will be treated to a sequel of a different name about Losties out in the real world--some of them trying to get back for whatever reason. It will probably bomb.


 AfterL*O*S*T?


----------



## ironchef

Turtleboy said:


> It's clear as day that Charlie died. It wasn't a cliffhanger, it wasn't open. It happened, and only the people in bizzaro world weren't sure.
> 
> Posting an article saying that he's leaving the show or confirming that he was dead isn't a spoiler at all, except to people who are looking for htings that aren't there.


Of course there are people out in the world who realize that this is a work of fiction and the writers can do anything they want with any character. I'm sure Charlie is dead now. I'm also sure that the writers will jerk him back to life somehow if it suits them. Up until the show ends, they can pretty much do anything they want. Having a character also give a misleading interview? That's never been done before.

I really don't care either way, but the people out there adamant he is dead and gone forever act like this is all real somehow and they have some special insight into the future.


----------



## TheGreyOwl

devdogaz said:


> Except that if the show intended there to be any question as to Charlie's status, they wouldn't allow him to make any comments about his contract status. So whether we read about it in an article, or hear the producers confirm it in a podcast, or something else, the fact that they're clearly releasing the info and want the fans to be informed about it indicates that it's information that should be posted in this thread.


Plus, as many others have pointed out, the show didn't make the scene ambigous. Saying that posting the interview is a spoiler because the writers could change their mind makes no sense to me. It would be no different if someone posted an interview that talked about Locke stabbing Naomi, or Jack beating up Ben. It happened in the show and wasn't left as a cliffhanger. Sure, the writers could change it into a dream sequence later and say it never happened, but come on...


----------



## ElJay

Fish Man said:


> Not extreme at all. The spoiler rules clearly and unambiguously say that information about stuff in future episodes, that comes from ARTICLES is to be spoilerized. This was *EXACTLY* that.
> 
> An actor dying in real life is a completely different case. This is news, that affects the show, to be sure, but it's not a revealing of the writer's "secrets" as the item here was.


Charlie dying is not a spoiler. *It happened in this episode that we are talking about right now.* By the way, this episode is not a future episode.


----------



## fluffie

This has the potential of being a smeek and a spoiler though I have faithfully read all 99 pages having to do with Through the Looking Glass:


Spoiler



Has anyone noticed that the hunky spinal surgeon in Grey's Anatomy is also called Dr. Shepard/Dr.Shepherd? Coincidence? I think not. 



I seem to recall Michael was from New York. He would probably be feeling even more guilty than Jack and may have been inclined toward suicide. From some angles the coffin looks normal enough size. Jack may have felt warmly toward Michael even though he abandoned everyone and caused them to be captured. He could understand why Michael felt he had to do what he did and forgive him for giving them up. Of course Jack didn't know that Michael killed Ana Lucia and Libby. He might not have been so forgiving if he had. No one was at the funeral because Walt is still on the island. Jack felt bad for Michael enough to go to the funeral because he started out as one of them even though he took a separate path. I can't imagine any set of circumstances even over the course of an entire 4th season that would have Jack laying his hand on Ben's coffin in a warm manner. I guess Michael had to change his name when he got back to the U.S., or else people would have questioned him about what happened. Hence the Latham or whatever the fragment says his name was. He looked up Jack when he heard that he had returned. Kate on the other hand had no interest in forgiving Michael.

Theory #2 - Somehow Walt never made it off the island even though Ben promised to let them both go, where he continues his role as either protege of Jacob or has become Jacob himself. You have work to do John. Help Me!


----------



## Turtleboy

ElJay said:


> Charlie dying is not a spoiler. *It happened in this episode that we are talking about right now.* By the way, this episode is not a future episode.


But remember, certain people don't believe what they see with their own eyes. To them, Charlie didn't die and it was a "cliffhanger" or some nonsense, even though it was clear that Charlie did die.


----------



## balboa dave

My theory is the producers told Dominic to plant the story about him not coming back, arranged the marriage between him and Evangeline Lilly so his hanging around in Hawaii wouldn't look suspicious, made it look like he dies on the show for the season finale, then when they bring him back to everyone's surprise, we can all laugh at whoever bought the hype in the press as "the truth."


----------



## mqpickles

fluffie said:


> I seem to recall Michael was from New York. He would probably be feeling even more guilty than Jack and may have been inclined toward suicide. From some angles the coffin looks normal enough size. Jack may have felt warmly toward Michael even though he abandoned everyone and caused them to be captured. He could understand why Michael felt he had to do what he did and forgive him for giving them up. Of course Jack didn't know that Michael killed Ana Lucia and Libby. He might not have been so forgiving if he had. No one was at the funeral because Walt is still on the island. Jack felt bad for Michael enough to go to the funeral because he started out as one of them even though he took a separate path. I can't imagine any set of circumstances even over the course of an entire 4th season that would have Jack laying his hand on Ben's coffin in a warm manner. I guess Michael had to change his name when he got back to the U.S., or else people would have questioned him about what happened. Hence the Latham or whatever the fragment says his name was. He looked up Jack when he heard that he had returned. Kate on the other hand had no interest in forgiving Michael.
> 
> Theory #2 - Somehow Walt never made it off the island even though Ben promised to let them both go, where he continues his role as either protege of Jacob or has become Jacob himself. You have work to do John. Help Me!


A couple of problems with this.

1. Yes, Jack does know that Michael killed A-L and Libby.

2. If the article was about someone who had changed his identity, then why do we assume it was a character that was really from NY? Why couldn't it be, say, John Locke, who changed his last name and pretended to be from NY?


----------



## jehma

wprager said:


> So, assuming that full text of the newspaper obit was correct,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> who the heck is John Lantham
> 
> 
> ? The first name clearly leads you to think of one particular person, but as far as we know that particular character did not have
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> a teen-aged son
> 
> 
> . As much as I hate to admit it, it's beginning to sound more and more like
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> the person in the casket is a character we have not yet met.
> 
> 
> 
> And that will make a lot of people upset.


Who is


Spoiler



Karl's father?


----------



## justapixel

brianp6621 said:


> Contract spoilers on a person who may or may not have just left the show (even if he did leave, this just happened, it isn't like we've been stewing over this for half a season, how were we to know it wasn't part of a the finale cliff hanger??) should not be allowed in these threads (wait, they aren't allowed per the rules)


You are misunderstanding the rules. If something has happened in a show, all discussion relating to that show are allowed in the official show thread. A producer confirming that Charlie has died in the show AFTER VIEWERS SEEING HIM DIE is not a spoiler, and therefore does not need to be spoilerized.

Now, information about future happenings - such as "we just saw Charlie die, and I heard from the producers that Sawyer is next" - is a spoiler. We haven't seen Sawyer die.

Also, if Charlie was NOT dead and that information somehow got out, that would be something that was happening in the future and thus, *does* need to be spoilerized.

We are not requesting that things be spoilerized to preserve your belief system. The purpose is not to give away anything that is going to happen in the show * in the future.* If it has happened, confirming it isn't a spoiler.

I realize that in a show like this, where so many people read things into it that aren't there, that is a difficult line to understand. But, it's clear to me, so please ask for help if necessary rather than arguing.

The report to moderator button is bottom left. I would hate for people like Rob to not post because of spoiler wars, as he has always had wonderful insights.

I think we need to be done with this spoiler discussion and get back to the show.


----------



## Blackwolf

I have a silly audio-related question that I haven't seen brought up in any of the previous pages (and yes, I read them all, I lurk a LOT here) and unfortunately I've already deleted this episode and previous ones so I can't check myself.

I seem to recall that the "woosh" that seperates current and flashback always went from the island scene to the past scene, however in this episode it went the other way around - the "woosh" went from the future scene to the island scene. It's as if the "woosh" seemed to indicate "now we go back in time" and it stayed consistant by flipping where it was.

...Am I crazy and making up stuff that's not there (because I've only viewed the shows once) or was this another hint by the producers telling us it's a flash-forward?


----------



## TheGreyOwl

Blackwolf said:


> I have a silly audio-related question that I haven't seen brought up in any of the previous pages (and yes, I read them all, I lurk a LOT here) and unfortunately I've already deleted this episode and previous ones so I can't check myself.
> 
> I seem to recall that the "woosh" that seperates current and flashback always went from the island scene to the past scene, however in this episode it went the other way around - the "woosh" went from the future scene to the island scene. It's as if the "woosh" seemed to indicate "now we go back in time" and it stayed consistant by flipping where it was.
> 
> ...Am I crazy and making up stuff that's not there (because I've only viewed the shows once) or was this another hint by the producers telling us it's a flash-forward?


I noticed this as well. This is precisely why I thought the off-island scenes were the present time, and the island scenes were the flashbacks. It's for this reason that I don't think of it as a "flashforward".


----------



## Turtleboy

So would people be mad if I posted that I saw on a spoiler site that Jack is Alex's father?


----------



## slocko

haven't seen this idea posted yet.

when the emp went off, those guys in the artic registered it and called Penny.

my theory is that we will see a flashback where Desmond is telling Penny about what happened to him on the island that set off the EMP.

when Desmond disappears Penny takes a leap of faith and sends a team to monitor for the EMP.

when her team reports the coordinates of the EMP she begins scanning frequencies at those coordinates hoping to locate Desmond. of course because of the jamming, she never does. but when Charlies turns it off, her transmission is picked up by the underground station.

the Dharma project (maybe her father) is keeping an eye on her, and learn the coordinates from spying on her. so they are also looking at those coordinates.

this new player has to be somebody we know all ready. wouldn't make sense to introduce a new player at this point. my bet it's the Dharma folks wanting to find the island again. we are probably going to see that Asian guy again in a future episode.

other thoughts:

Ben's people just want to protect the island. only reason they killed the dharma folks. Jack's group so far doesn't threaten the island. in actuality they possess individuals that might help in protecting the island. so no reason for Ben to just exterminate them.

nothing so far confirms that dharma is not a bad group. we might see Jack ally himself with Ben if the new folks arriving start killing people or taking them prisoners.

Not sure what Ben was aiming at by pretending to kill Jack's peeps. he simply could have told his men to ignore his order to shoot them. no need to have them shoot in the ground.


----------



## rondotcom

Delta13 said:


> I sorta thought that the Twice A Hero thing was mentioned well, twice, but I could be wrong. .


Or was it because he saved the woman AND her son?


----------



## mikieminnow

OK, wow! 654 posts. I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that Jack might have lost purpose in his life. In the real world, he was a well respected, talented surgeon who was constantly in his fathers shadow. He is a great surgeon but has reservations about following in his fathers footsteps. On the island, his life has purpose leading the Planies. Ben points this out during their conversation about getting the phone. Maybe when Jack gets back to the real world, he realizes that the only time he had purpose in his life was on the island, that's why he wants to get back so badly.


----------



## Martin Tupper

ElJay said:


> Charlie dying is not a spoiler. *It happened in this episode that we are talking about right now.* By the way, this episode is not a future episode.


But the actor's contract extension did not happen in this show and is a spoiler of future episodes. Do I think Charlie is dead? Yes! Yes I do. But that doesn't mean that I necessarily believe he's been written out of the story line.

'Lost' uses lots of flashbacks and mystical vision sequences. For all I knew, Dominic Monaghan was going to have _more _screen time next season. Heck, Charlie could have been the most pivotal character next season.

In the grand scheme of things, it isn't a very big "spoiler". However, despite the ruling on the field by one of the mods, discussion of outside interviews by actors, directors, writers, and producers about future episodes (and not renewing a contract is a spoiler about future episodes) is verboten.

Remind me again why its so difficult to use spoiler tags about that kind of stuff.


----------



## Martin Tupper

justapixel said:


> You are misunderstanding the rules. If something has happened in a show, all discussion relating to that show are allowed in the official show thread. A producer confirming that Charlie has died in the show AFTER VIEWERS SEEING HIM DIE is not a spoiler, and therefore does not need to be spoilerized.


With all due respect, the spoiler isn't whether or not Charlie is dead. The spoiler is that Dominic Monaghan will not be returning to the show. That not only confirms what we all saw happen to Charlie in this episode, it lets us know that Charlie will not play a prominent role in flashbacks, flash forwards, and mystical visions next season.


----------



## Turtleboy

Martin Tupper said:


> With all due respect, the spoiler isn't whether or not Charlie is dead. The spoiler is that Dominic Monaghan will not be returning to the show. That not only confirms what we all saw happen to Charlie in this episode, it lets us know that Charlie will not play a prominent role in flashbacks, flash forwards, and mystical visions next season.


Even if that's true, aren't people a little bit obsessive over this?

That was Rob's point. It takes the joy out of discussing it when people are a little over-anal.


----------



## sunnyworld

The person in the coffin is Hurley. The coffin is wide enough for Hurley--check out the scene with the shot from above with Jack touching the coffin. For one, Hurley is one of the few people who is from the hood and its clearly shown in that the funeral parlor is located in the hood. The only thing is that he had family and noone showed up. 

Two, Hurley has shown us many times that he was suicidal, and was neither friend of family (well, I take the friend part back). 

Anyways, Hurley probably killed himself because of the guilt he carries from being associated with the numbers and the only recourse was to off himself to get rid of the curse or he off himself because of his association to the numbers.


----------



## hefe

Turtleboy said:


> So would people be mad if I posted that I saw on a spoiler site that Jack is Alex's father?


Yes


----------



## Turtleboy

hefe said:


> Yes


Well that's good then, because I just made it up.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Turtleboy said:


> Even if that's true, aren't people a little bit obsessive over this?
> 
> That was Rob's point. It takes the joy out of discussing it when people are a little over-anal.


And anyway, it's not true. The spoiler was about Charlie being dead. The additional information was brought into the thread by people complaining about the guy quoting an article confirming that Charlie is dead.


----------



## mqpickles

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And anyway, it's not true. The spoiler was about Charlie being dead. The additional information was brought into the thread by people complaining about the guy quoting an article confirming that Charlie is dead.


And does his not getting a renewed contract as a regular cast member mean he won't be back as a guest player?


----------



## ironchef

Turtleboy said:


> Well that's good then, because I just made it up.


Please don't feed the Trolls.


----------



## philw1776

justapixel said:


> You are misunderstanding the rules. If something has happened in a show, all discussion relating to that show are allowed in the official show thread. A producer confirming that Charlie has died in the show AFTER VIEWERS SEEING HIM DIE is not a spoiler, and therefore does not need to be spoilerized.
> 
> Now, information about future happenings - such as "we just saw Charlie die, and I heard from the producers that Sawyer is next" - is a spoiler. We haven't seen Sawyer die.


OMG!
Sawyer's gonna die!??!

Maybe I'm misreading something here. 

Put me solidly in the camp with Rob H, whose posts I enjoy.

-phil on vacation posting from a library


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

OK, time for a little review. This is the "spoiler" post that people were complaining about:



flyersfan said:


> EW.com has an interview with Dominic Monaghan. http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20040051,00.html
> 
> The key sequence is this:
> ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: How long have you known about Charlie's death, and what was your reaction to that plot twist?
> DOMINIC MONAGHAN: By the time they got around to actually telling me  which was four months after I knew about the storyline we were exploring  it was probably one of relief more than anything else.
> 
> and further down...
> 
> DOMINIC MONAGHAN: ...He thinks he has beaten fate, and then the wheels come into motion and fate, as usual, wins the day. Once Charlie realizes that that's the case, he totally makes his peace with it. He's not scared. He's not panicked. He knows it's supposed to happen. He has to get a message across to Desmond before he dies, which he does, and then in the way that you can be okay with drowning, Charlie was.
> 
> So before anyone else jumps in with "he might've swum out after we cut away", please drop it.


NOTHING about future episodes. ALL of the "future episode," contract issue, stuff was added to the thread by PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS POST.

The spoiler police were the ones committing the spoiler crimes, not the person they were complaining about.


----------



## hefe

Rob Helmerichs said:


> NOTHING about future episodes.


It's a legitimate argument to disagree that confirming the death constitutes a spoiler. That is the crux of the issue.

But to say that it says nothing about future episodes is not true. No, it doesn't give away specific script elements, but it does tell us definitively about something that will figure in to the future episodes that was thought by some to be ambiguous given the nature of the show.

Now, this particular "spoiler" is not one that I personally would avoid, and I do actively avoid spoilers and previews for _future _shows. I would err on the side of caution because I know that others have different thresholds for what they consider a spoiler, and it's too hard to please everyone.

I think that if you do consider outside information that clarifies events that you think are open to interpretation to be spoilers, then yes, that post constitutes a spoiler. If you don't, then it's not.


----------



## tewcewl

And here I was, hoping for some real discussion about an explosive season finale that seemed to change the rules of the game and 75% of this thread is mired in a spoiler war. 

My take is that Charlie's dead being confirmed by Dom and the producers on MULTIPLE magazines and media (TVGuide, Entertainment Weekly, etc.) is NOT a spoiler since this episode aired and we saw it happen and it's being published everywhere. This was confirmed by this board's moderator.

Now, does this mean Dom won't be back? NO. Dead people have been "resurrected" on LOST in visions, flashbacks and dreams, Boone being the most prominent one. But there was nothing in any of the articles or quotes that suggested that Dominic Monaghan will NEVER return to LOST, which in itself IS a spoiler since it effectively "spoils" the future of Charlie's character. Or if the article said that Charlie would return in the form of an angel over Claire and Aaron, that part would be a spoiler. Every quote just simply confirms that Charlie's dead, something that we all saw with our eyes and something that's been set up for a while. NOT a spoiler.

Additionally, this issue (Charlie's death) is the ONLY thing out of the whole season finale that Damon and Carlton took to the media to confirm. They refused to answer any other questions because they wanted us to gnaw on other things seen/heard in this finale without their input. Charlie's death is not the thing that they wanted us to focus on; it is a needless distraction (that doesn't need to be debated), taking time away from what else we could be really discussing and theorizing on.

Can we move on already?


----------



## eksimba

Besides, if you actually read the article in question,


Spoiler



neither the producers nor the actor say whether or not Charlie will show up in future episodes. As a matter of fact, they leave it decisively indecisive, so as not to spoil the fun for anybody. The article was not about future plotlines, but about the death scene (which we all saw) and the actor's reaction to it.


----------



## hefe

tewcewl said:


> Can we move on already?


We did. And then you brought it up again.


----------



## mqpickles

Okay, here's a puzzling issue. At the end, Jack wants to "go back"; Kate declines. It's in keeping with Jack's character that there must be something to fix if they go back.

If the reason to go back is to rescue people, it seems like Kate would jump at the chance. A big part of her character is wanting to rescue people (her mom, Jack), and even more so to "go back," to return to the scene of the crime, so to speak, and if it's dangerous, even better. She went back to Iowa at least twice (to see old BF Tom and to see Mom), went back to the bank where the toy airplane was (which still seems stupid to me), went back to the others' camp to get Jack . . .

Why doesn't she want to "go back" this time? What has changed? 

This could mean a lot of different things. One possibility it could lend credence to the theory that Kat has had Sawyer's baby, and the "he" who might be wondering about her is her son. Motherhood could cause a girl to quit running and let the past be in the past.

I'm sure there are other possibilities.


----------



## Turtleboy

I think Jack wants to go back because his life sucks now. He's addicted to pain meds, he's a failure, he can't adjust to life back in society.

He wants to go back so he can feel alive again, feel like he mattered, like he did on the island.

That's most of it.


----------



## hefe

Turtleboy said:


> I think Jack wants to go back because his life sucks now. He's addicted to pain meds, he's a failure, he can't adjust to life back in society.
> 
> He wants to go back so he can feel alive again, feel like he mattered, like he did on the island.
> 
> That's most of it.


That may be, but I'm also thinking he feels there is some sort of unfinished business to deal with. Perhaps some guilt over something he thinks he can still change.


----------



## Cainebj

jschuman said:


> I think there are a couple of clues as to the funeral identity:
> 1) No one goes. No family or friends attend.
> 2) Jack says that he is neither friend nor family.
> 3) Kate's quote: "Why would I go to _his_ funeral?" So it must be a male and it is someone Kate does not like.
> 
> With the facts we know now those clues point to either Locke or Ben. (My guess is Ben) Of course, what happens next could totally change things up....


4) The funeral is in Los Angeles, so that would eliminate anyone from other countries (I would think).


----------



## Turtleboy

And they still don't know where the Island is. Or there is still something stopping people from going to the the island. Otherwise, he could just buy a boat and go himself. The only way to get there is through a plane crash, or something like that.


----------



## tewcewl

hefe said:


> We did. And then you brought it up again.


I'm sorry, hefe, I was just trying to close the argument. It was still ongoing when I posted my comment.

Moving on...
What I find interesting is that in Jack's apartment, there were maps ALL OVER the place. Don't you think if they were rescued, Jack would be able to talk to his rescuers and find out the coordinates of where they were? This leads me to think that this might have been a forcible rescue; a kidnapping, if you will.


----------



## jubrand

audioscience said:


> Smeeking because I can't read through all 21 pages...
> 
> Did anyone else notice how when Jack introduces himself to the new Chief of Surgery the Chief says, "Dr. Shepard, the hero - twice over."
> 
> I would take that to imply that he was hailed a hero after leaving the island, maybe for leading the rescue and now again for saving the woman and her kid from the car accident. Possibly that is why Jack sports a beard now, so people don't notice him after being a "hero" from the flight 815 incident. Like when Jack was in the pharmacy and the man behind him recognized him as the hero from TV who saved that woman's life.
> 
> Just another interesting point I thought.


Twice a hero could just as easily be referring to when he performed the surgery to fix his ex-wife's spine, when everyone thought she'd never walk again.


----------



## wprager

mqpickles said:


> AfterL*O*S*T?


 :up:


----------



## hefe

tewcewl said:


> I'm sorry, hefe, I was just trying to close the argument. It was still ongoing when I posted my comment.
> 
> Moving on...
> What I find interesting is that in Jack's apartment, there were maps ALL OVER the place. Don't you think if they were rescued, Jack would be able to talk to his rescuers and find out the coordinates of where they were? This leads me to think that this might have been a forcible rescue; a kidnapping, if you will.


I was just being semi-sarcastic, and maybe a bit too deadpan...every time someone who wants it to stop brings it up, they are sort of doing the opposite of their stated wish...bringing it up again. 

As for the maps, I get the impression that Jack is trying to work out where exactly the island must be. However he got off the island, he never gained that information.


----------



## Turtleboy

hefe said:


> I was just being semi-sarcastic, and maybe a bit too deadpan...every time someone who wants it to stop brings it up, they are sort of doing the opposite of their stated wish...bringing it up again.
> 
> As for the maps, I get the impression that Jack is trying to work out where exactly the island must be. However he got off the island, he never gained that information.


Sure. That's why he's taking planes hoping they crash, instead of just getting on a boat and goig there himself.


----------



## unixadm

Can we just drop the spoiler war? JAP has already made the official ruling that although it would have been better to err on the side of safety and spoilerize the article, it wasn't a spoiler. It was posted once way back...and we could have even requested the OP go back and spoilerize...but there has been SO many posts about it that there is no way to go back and clean it up. If no one had commented on it and just reported it, then the whole mess could have been avoided. It's done and over with...let's get back to talking about this oh so fantastic season finale!


What make no sense to me is why Jack is taking planes hoping that they crash on the island.

First, going to Tokyo would not even be close to the same route that the Sydney to LA flight took.

Second, and more importantly, is that we know that they crashed because Desmond failed to put the numbers into the computer on time, thus causing a magnetic anomoly that crashed the flight 815.......since the hatch and computer are no longer there and there is no one entering numbers, then there would be no reason any plane would be pulled down onto the island.

The more I think about it, the more I agree with those who have said that the final scene of this episode with Jack and Kate will show up in an episode in the 2009 season with the rest of that season and all of the 2010 season showing them returning to the island trying to make right what went wrong.

Another interesting thing is what Locke said when Jack was making the call..."You're not supposed to do this".....wasn't that exactly what the jewerly store lady said to Desmond when he purchased the ring? Will Jack be able to go back and change what he did?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

unixadm said:


> First, going to Tokyo would not even be close to the same route that the Sydney to LA flight took.


Exactly. Jack is doing the right thing by taking flights to everywhere BUT Sydney, because probably the only thing he knows about the island's location is that it is several hours off the Sydney-LA flight path.


----------



## stellie93

They clearly said that Desmond not putting in the numbers made 815 crash, but what made Naomi's helicopter crash? 

If you are pregnant when you arrive on the island you're ok, so what if you get pregnant on the island and then leave? I would assume you couldn't save them by leaving since it would have been easy for Ben to take them somewhere else in the old days--they must have tried that. But then we're talking about Ben, maybe he refused to let them go. So it would take a fix of the problem for Kate or Sun to give birth. (if Kate's pregnant now)


----------



## mqpickles

Turtleboy said:


> I think Jack wants to go back because his life sucks now. He's addicted to pain meds, he's a failure, he can't adjust to life back in society.
> 
> He wants to go back so he can feel alive again, feel like he mattered, like he did on the island.
> 
> That's most of it.


I can understand Jack's wanting to go back. What I can't understand, yet, is why Kate *doesn't* want to.


----------



## Turtleboy

mqpickles said:


> I can understand Jack's wanting to go back. What I can't understand, yet, is why Kate *doesn't* want to.


She does. She just doesn't know it yet.


----------



## tanstaafl

stellie93 said:


> My theory is that Lost will always take place on the island with whatever direction of flashes and a big rescue at the end, with some going and some staying. THEN we will be treated to a sequel of a different name about Losties out in the real world--some of them trying to get back for whatever reason. It will probably bomb.


So, would the sequel be called _Found_?


stellie93 said:


> They clearly said that Desmond not putting in the numbers made 815 crash, but what made Naomi's helicopter crash?


In one of the podcasts (can't remember which one off the top of my head), Lindelof and Cuse have said that


Spoiler



The normal magnetic anomaly on the Island is enough to cause problems for small things like helicopters or old slaving ships, but a massive object like a 747 would only be affected by having the additional strength caused by the unpushed button behind it.


----------



## Mike Farrington

tanstaafl said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The normal magnetic anomaly on the Island is enough to cause problems for small things like helicopters or old slaving ships, but a massive object like a 747 would only be affected by having the additional strength caused by the unpushed button behind it.


I also heard on one of their most recent podcasts that...


Spoiler



The anomaly caused the failure of the flight control systems, indicating that they felt that the magnetic force itself didn't rip the plane apart. That should appease those who feel that the fuselage of a large aircraft wouldn't succumb to such magnetic forces.


----------



## Delta13

The spoilered info was also specifically discussed in "Lost: The Answers", and the same answer was given by the producers. We discussed it in the thread of that show, too. I'd say that answer has been broadcast now quite a bit - podcast, TV shows, interviews - so I'm inclined to possibly start believing them.


----------



## Delta13

mqpickles said:


> I can understand Jack's wanting to go back. What I can't understand, yet, is why Kate *doesn't* want to.


Jack likes to fix things, Kate wants to rescue people. The events on the island can be fixed, but there is no one left to rescue, so Kate doesn't feel the need to go back.

I think the rescue goes bad, somehow, and only some wind up off the island. I could see a scenario where Jack gets told he can pick 2 people - or maybe only 1! - to go with him when he leaves. In any case, some die and maybe some are rescued. Ben's remaining people all die. The people who want to stay behind die, or are forced to be experiments.

All because Jack did the wrong thing, the thing he wasn't supposed to do. So he wants to go back and fix it. I also don't think Kate truly understands the question yet.


----------



## Delta13

unixadm said:


> Another interesting thing is what Locke said when Jack was making the call..."You're not supposed to do this".....wasn't that exactly what the jewerly store lady said to Desmond when he purchased the ring? Will Jack be able to go back and change what he did?


I'll post a transcript in Hefe's honor:

*[from "Flashes Before Your Eyes"]*

MS. HAWKING [surprised]: I'm sorry?

DESMOND: It's perfect. I'll take it.

MS. HAWKING: No you won't. Give me the ring. Give it here.

DESMOND: I don't understand.

MS. HAWKING: *This is wrong. You don't buy the ring. You have second thoughts; you walk right out that door. So, come on, let's have it.*

DESMOND: I don't know what you're on about.

MS. HAWKING: You don't buy the ring, Desmond.

DESMOND: How do you know my name?

MS. HAWKING: Well, I know your name as well as I know that you that don't ask Penny to marry you. In fact, you break her heart. Well, breaking her heart is, of course, what drives you in a few short years from now to enter that sailing race -- to prove her father wrong -- which brings you to the island where you spend the next 3 years of your life entering numbers into the computer until you are forced to turn that failsafe key. And if you don't do those things, Desmond David Hume, every single one of us is dead. So give me that sodding ring.


----------



## Turtleboy

I don't think Jack wants to go back to fix other people or to save other people. He needs to go back to save himself.

Off the island, in the future, Jack has come to believe that Locke was right, and Ben was right. They were right about the spiritual gifts of the Island. He wants to go back to save his soul.


----------



## Fish Man

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think Jack wants to go back to fix other people or to save other people. He needs to go back to save himself.
> 
> Off the island, in the future, Jack has come to believe that Locke was right, and Ben was right. They were right about the spiritual gifts of the Island. He wants to go back to save his soul.


I completely agree.

The reason Jack had turned to drugs and alcohol in the flash-forward segments was that he was in abject misery off the island. The only thing that would make his life worth living again would be to go back.

That was my read anyway.

Interesting how Kate seemed to accept being off the island. Not necessarily _happier_ but not in "misery" either, as Jack was.

I wonder why the difference in Jack's perspective vs. Kates?


----------



## stalemate

Finally watched this one tonight. About 1 minute into the episode my wife said "pause it." I paused it and she asked "Do you think this is before the island or after they got off the island?" I answered "After" and she said "Good, me too."

It was pretty obvious to me that it was a flashforward the whole episode, but I kind of wish I would have had the WTF moment at the end.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is something I believe I read here a few weeks ago. I don't read much of the spoiler posts, but I believe I read something about the finale that I didn't see happen in this episode. I'll spoiler it again just in case...



Spoiler



I believe I remember reading something about Jack's tattoos revealing some big secret in the finale. Something like we should pay careful attention to his tattoos.



I didn't really pay any attention during the episode, so I don't know if that was true or not. Did anyone notice? Also, does anyone remember where I might have read that? I'm pretty sure it was here on TCF.

EDIT: I found some vague spoiler information that I might have been misremembering. It stated that something would be revealed in Jack's flashbacks. Something in my brain warped the word 'flashbacks' into the word in my spoiler text. I think.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Fish Man said:


> Interesting how Kate seemed to accept being off the island. Not necessarily _happier_ but not in "misery" either, as Jack was.
> 
> I wonder why the difference in Jack's perspective vs. Kates?


It seemed to me that Kate was completely happy off the island. She looked great, was made up nicely, hadn't let herself go, was driving a nice car, wasn't dwelling on the past, etc. Her state of mind was exactly the opposite of Jack's. Clearly she's reached closure with the way they left the island, while Jack definitely hasn't.


----------



## wprager

stalemate said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I remember reading something about Jack's tattoos revealing some big secret in the finale. Something like we should pay careful attention to his tattoos.


This *may be* related. Just before Locke sees Walt, there are some whispers heard. Some are suggesting that the voice sounds like (spoilering, since it alludes to stalemate's spoilerized info):


Spoiler



the tattoo lady.



Read/listen here:
http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/05/what-lockes-hears-seconds-before-walt.html


----------



## hefe

devdogaz said:


> It seemed to me that Kate was completely happy off the island. She looked great, was made up nicely, hadn't let herself go, was driving a nice car, wasn't dwelling on the past, etc. Her state of mind was exactly the opposite of Jack's. Clearly she's reached closure with the way they left the island, while Jack definitely hasn't.


And doesn't _seem _to be a fugitive any more.


----------



## steve614

Wow, great season finale! :up:

I was totally surprised with the "flash-forwards". I thought they were flash-backs -- then WTF? when we see Kate. It finally dawned on me with the "we HAVE to go back" line. 



scottykempf said:


> But Tom said "we followed orders, instead of killing them like we should have". Or it might have been the other guy. So they were following Bens order, which was to NOT shoot Sayid, Bernard, and Jin but to make Jack think that they did.


I heard it as "we should've followed orders INSTEAD of shooting into the sand".
This was to show that Ben is losing control over some of the Others.

+1 on the theory that (some of) the Losties get rescued before the last season, and that the last season entails going back to the island to "make things right".



Delta13 said:


> And as for the scuba gear, let's face it, Charlie's would have malfunctioned on the way up. He WAS doomed, ya know. He found and embraced an acceptable death, far better than being the lightning rod.


I don't know -- I heard drowning is PAINFUL.  I think I'd much rather leave this earth with the zap of a lightning bolt instead of drowning.

As for the spoiler war -- for the sake of arguing, if you are unsure about the content, err on the side of caution and spoilerize. So what that it takes a couple of extra mouse clicks to read. Are people THAT lazy?  
IMO, if you want to get technical, the post in question _should_ have been spoilerized because of the rule about quoting "outside sources / articles", regardless of what was contained in the quote.
BTW, there is a "wrap quote tags around selected text" icon -- how come there is no "wrap spoiler tags around selected text" icon? Maybe if there were, a person would be more inclined to use a spoiler tag instead of being too lazy to manually type the spoiler command. Just a thought.


----------



## wprager

steve614 said:


> As for the spoiler war -- for the sake of arguing, if you are unsure about the content, err on the side of caution and spoilerize. So what that it takes a couple of extra mouse clicks to read. Are people THAT lazy?


Well, actually, a single CTL-A will select the whole page, thus revealing *all* spoilers.

The bigger issue (laziness-wise) is the extra 19 key-clicks to add the spoiler tags in the first place.



> BTW, there is a "wrap quote tags around selected text" icon -- how come there is no "wrap spoiler tags around selected text" icon? Maybe if there were, a person would be more inclined to use a spoiler tag instead of being too lazy to manually type the spoiler command. Just a thought.


My thought exactly. Note, though, that in this case it is pretty obvious that the person was not at all _unsure_ so it is unlikely spoiler tag buttons would have made a difference.


----------



## madscientist

steve614 said:


> I heard it as "we should've followed orders INSTEAD of shooting into the sand".
> This was to show that Ben is losing control over some of the Others.


No, I'm pretty sure it was the other way around. I remember because I was quite surprised that Tom would be advocating killing them when Ben said not to; it gave a big twist to his character. I always watch with CC on these days because we can't turn up the sound due to kids trying to sleep upstairs.

Maybe Hefe can provide a definitive statement on this, but IMO Ben said not to kill them, and Tom said they should have killed them anyway.

Turns out, Tom was right 

Also, this makes Sawyer's actions at the end much more understandable, since (IIRC) he and Juliette heard Tom say that.


----------



## getbak

This is the conversation between Tom and the other Other. Ben's order was to not kill them:

"It was an order Tom, we had to follow it."

"Ben doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. He's lost it. I mean look at what they did to us. Instead of putting three bullets into the damn sand, we should have killed them for real."


----------



## DevdogAZ

getbak said:


> This is the conversation between Tom and the other Other. Ben's order was to not kill them:
> 
> "It was an order Tom, we had to follow it."
> 
> "Ben doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. He's lost it. I mean look at what they did to us. Instead of putting three bullets into the damn sand, we should have killed them for real."


Now we're just going in circles: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5182007&&#post5182007


----------



## getbak

devdogaz said:


> Now we're just going in circles: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5182007&&#post5182007


Well, there you go. I guess I had to Smeek sometime.


----------



## JR99

mask2343 said:


> Guy survives a plane wreck, rescues a bunch of people, the rescues 2 more in a car accident...and the girl can't give the man a ride home?!


Since Jack's an addict, his ex-wife probably got a restraining order to keep him away.

She went to the hospital because he neglected to remove her as his emergency contact -- and the restraining order prohibits him from approaching her, not her from approaching him.

Once she determined that he was not incapacitated, she declined to give him a ride because that would put him in violation of the restraining order.

Would've been a bit kinder of her to at least ask if he needed cab fare, however.

What concerned me more is that his addiction should be obvious to his peers and he's still allowed to practice medicine.


----------



## lonwolf615

Maybe I'm just strange (okay, drop the maybe), but I don't think there has been any comment on one of the more disturbing scenes in the episode. John killed someone in cold blood! More than that, he got her in the back, which has always been tv shorthand for a coward and villian. Was it portrayed that way just for shock value? It was done so casually, and John was actually smiling (admittingly grimly, but still). And noone said "hey, you just stabbed her in the back". Yeah, I know we're supposed to be unsure of his motives and we've been teased before with hints of him being possibly evil, but coming on top of the island healing his gunshot, it made me wonder...How much of what Ben has done is really him and how much is the island causing? With all the seeming benifits the island provides(and noone seems to be questioning Jack's wanting to go back), maybe its ultimate effect is a lot more sinister than we realize. And maybe Kate realized that, which is why she just shook her head when Jack begs her to help him return?


----------



## DevdogAZ

lonwolf615 said:


> Maybe I'm just strange (okay, drop the maybe), but I don't think there has been any comment on one of the more disturbing scenes in the episode. John killed someone in cold blood! More than that, he got her in the back, which has always been tv shorthand for a coward and villian. Was it portrayed that way just for shock value? It was done so casually, and John was actually smiling (admittingly grimly, but still). And noone said "hey, you just stabbed her in the back". Yeah, I know we're supposed to be unsure of his motives and we've been teased before with hints of him being possibly evil, but coming on top of the island healing his gunshot, it made me wonder...How much of what Ben has done is really him and how much is the island causing? With all the seeming benifits the island provides(and noone seems to be questioning Jack's wanting to go back), maybe its ultimate effect is a lot more sinister than we realize. And maybe Kate realized that, which is why she just shook her head when Jack begs her to help him return?


I didn't raise the same question you did, but I did question why Locke was willing to kill a stranger in cold blood to prevent her from making the phone call, but then didn't make much of an effort to prevent Jack from making that same call.


----------



## Gerryex

Hi ALL,

I have a question! While I'm not taking the side of the Others, but other then killing most of the Dharma people several years ago, and other than kidnapping and not treating the Losties very well, did they kill any of the Losties. I don't think so, but some of the Losties have killed several Others. Again the Losties probably were justified, but did the Others kill or severely harm (other than torture!) the Losties?!

Gerry


----------



## testify4

I can think of a couple incidents:



Spoiler



Ethan Rom stringing Charlie up from a tree. He _almost_ died, but it seems like his intent was to kill Charlie.

Ethan killed Scott during the Other's raid from the ocean.

Goodwin killed the Tailie that was suspected as an other to cover for himself.

Overall, the Losties are way ahead in their tally, methinks.


----------



## teknikel

Blackwolf said:


> I have a silly audio-related question that I haven't seen brought up in any of the previous pages (and yes, I read them all, I lurk a LOT here) and unfortunately I've already deleted this episode and previous ones so I can't check myself.
> 
> I seem to recall that the "woosh" that seperates current and flashback always went from the island scene to the past scene, however in this episode it went the other way around - the "woosh" went from the future scene to the island scene. It's as if the "woosh" seemed to indicate "now we go back in time" and it stayed consistant by flipping where it was.
> 
> ...Am I crazy and making up stuff that's not there (because I've only viewed the shows once) or was this another hint by the producers telling us it's a flash-forward?


In this episode, it went both ways. At 1h37m in the transition from Jack and Hamill arguing in the hospital to Jack leading the Losties on the Island with the accompanying "whoosh".

Then there was a transition from after talking on the phone with Krokowski(?) to his apartment in LA. "Whoosh" accompanied.

Also, this was alluded to earlier but not addressed directly. With Locke's pronouncement of "You're not supposed to do this" is it possible that Locke has seen the future like the ring lady with Desmond?


----------



## teknikel

testify4 said:


> I can think of a couple incidents:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Ethan Rom stringing Charlie up from a tree. He _almost_ died, but it seems like his intent was to kill Charlie.
> 
> Ethan killed Scott during the Other's raid from the ocean.
> 
> Goodwin killed the Tailie that was suspected as an other to cover for himself.
> 
> Overall, the Losties are way ahead in their tally, methinks.


Not sure why this is spoilered but Goodwin also tried to kill Anna Lucia. I consider her killing of him self defense.

Ben blackmailed Michael into killing her (sort of).

I am pretty sure there was intent to kill when torching the raft.

It seems the Others attempt to kill or do harm, but fail and are usually killed in the process.


----------



## jonblaze

DevdogAZ said:


> I didn't raise the same question you did, but I did question why Locke was willing to kill a stranger in cold blood to prevent her from making the phone call, but then didn't make much of an effort to prevent Jack from making that same call.


That was perhaps the most puzzling scene of this episode. Despite his assertions to the contrary, Locke simply isn't a "hunter." Locke couldn't kill his father, he couldn't kill Jack (to prevent the phone call), and he couldn't kill that undercover cop on the commune. But he had no compunction about killing (as opposed to incapacitating) Naomi. It just didn't fit with his prior character development.


----------



## Johncv

markz said:


> Who's funeral? TELL ME!!!!


Ben?


----------



## Johncv

David Scavo said:


> My guess is Locke


No, Locke would not leave the island.


----------



## Johncv

markz said:


> I don't think Locke would have left the island. Locke & Rousso neither one want to leave.
> 
> I think "he" that was waiting for Kate is Sawyer. And I think the funeral was Ben's.


You just won the Lottery.


----------



## Johncv

mojomom said:


> Does anyone else wonder if there really is a next season? Where (on Earth???) could they go from here? I kept wondering when they announced the "end" of the show if they were just setting us up for a surprise ending tonight.
> 
> How weird that it feels like an "it was all a dream" ending even though it was actually pretty straightforward--they were rescued, Jack's life sucked and Locke was right, they should have stayed on the island. I have to imagine that other survivor's lives had happier endings--not dying in childbirth, for instance.


This may have been answer already, but the show will end 2012, with only 12 episodes each season.


----------



## Johncv

CorgiMom28 said:


> I can't see Ben leaving the island, along with Locke and Rousseau


Ben could have been force to leave the island.


----------



## stellie93

Just rewatched it and a couple things struck me. 

The doctor seems to know Jack's problem, but tells him to "go home and have a drink." Isn't that a weird thing to say to an alcoholic?

When Charlie dies, baby Aaron starts to cry--is he in touch with the island and knows what's going on?

I saw Juliet on the View last week (and had to fast forward through a lot of crap to get to it) She seems so different in real life. She must be a really good actress. You realize when you see her in person and she's very perky and upbeat, that she never smiles on the island. Not the big smile, just that little thing at the corner of her mouth. 

I still don't get that the coffin looks all that small. In the shots from across the room it looks normal to me. Maybe looks a little small when Jack puts his hand on it. I'm thinking Ben's in there. 

2012? I thought there were just 3 more seasons.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Johncv said:


> This may have been answer already, but the show will end 2012, with only 12 episodes each season.


By which I assume you mean the 2012 that falls in 2010, and the 12 that comes between 15 and 17...


----------



## DCIFRTHS

stellie93 said:


> ... I still don't get that the coffin looks all that small. In the shots from across the room it looks normal to me. Maybe looks a little small when Jack puts his hand on it. I'm thinking Ben's in there.  ...


It depends on the angle of the camera. In some shots it looks small, wile others make it appear normal in size. This may have been done on purpose...

When Jack was asked if he was friend or family, his response was "either". So unless something _really strange_ happens on the island, I don't think it's Ben


----------



## Johncv

Rob Helmerichs said:


> By which I assume you mean the 2012 that falls in 2010, and the 12 that comes between 15 and 17...


ABC and the producers agree that the last season will be 2012 with only 12 shows each season starting sometime next year.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Johncv said:


> ABC and the producers agree that the last season will be 2012 with only 12 shows each season starting sometime next year.


No, it's three seasons of 16 shows, starting in 2008, which means ending in 2010.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070507/tv_nm/lost_dc


----------



## hefe

Of course it's 16. 

16 is one of the "numbers," and 12 is not.


----------



## Turtleboy

Johncv said:


> ABC and the producers agree that the last season will be 2012 with only 12 shows each season starting sometime next year.


5 more years? Uh, no. 5 years in total.

Or five seasons in total.


----------



## TiVotion

DCIFRTHS said:


> It depends on the angle of the camera. In some shots it looks small, wile others make it appear normal in size. This may have been done on purpose...
> 
> When Jack was asked if he was friend or family, his response was "either". So unless something _really strange_ happens on the island, I don't think it's Ben


I've watched it twice now, and the response was "neither"...


----------



## justapixel

DevdogAZ said:


> I didn't raise the same question you did, but I did question why Locke was willing to kill a stranger in cold blood to prevent her from making the phone call, but then didn't make much of an effort to prevent Jack from making that same call.


He knows Jack. He's grown fond of Jack. Jack is his part of his island family. It would be much harder to kill him, and we know that John couldn't kill his own father himself, even after what Dad did to him.

But, Locke also has a special relationship with the island, and he doesn't want to leave. He fears if he does, he'll be paralyzed again. He believes this woman will threaten everything he wants, and so he kills her.

But, it's different with Jack. He still hopes he can convince Jack that staying on the island is what they need to do.

(Apparently he does, but only at some point in the distant future.)

We also still don't know what this woman is doing. He may not have killed her to prevent the call..... It may be that she has nothing to do with the rescue and is there for some nefarious reason, that John knows and Charlie almost knew....maybe killing her could halp stave of disaster even if Jack made the call.

I think it's perfectly in character that he killed the stranger but not Jack.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

TiVotion said:


> I've watched it twice now, and the response was "neither"...


I have listened to it over and over, on two sets in my house, and on my recording he says "either". I also watched it at a friends house, played back through a home theater system (5.1), and we all heard "either" too.


----------



## tivoboyjr

DCIFRTHS said:


> I have listened to it over and over, on two sets in my house, and on my recording he says "either". I also watched it at a friends house, played back through a home theater system (5.1), and we all heard "either" too.


I thought it was "neither." "Either" doesn't make much sense, either.


----------



## flyersfan

Turtleboy said:


> 5 more years? Uh, no.  5 years in total.
> 
> Or five seasons in total.


Neither. The producers actually wanted a 5 year run from the beginning, but ABC has agreed in principle to 3 more seasons with 16 episodes per season. I'm sure the contract is written so they can back out if the ratings tank, but if we make it to the series finale the show will have run for approximately 118 episodes (depending how you count the 2 hr shows) over 6 seasons.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

tivoboyjr said:


> I thought it was "neither." "Either" doesn't make much sense, either.


Well according to the closed captions he does say "Neither". So I guess my friends and I are wrong 

I still say he says "either"


----------



## Turtleboy

DCIFRTHS said:


> Well according to the closed captions he does say "Neither". So I guess my friends and I are wrong
> 
> I still say he says "either"


Goth or Gaunt?


----------



## mqpickles

Turtleboy said:


> Goth or Gaunt?


Neither.

Gone.


----------



## hefe

No, _we're_ the survivors of Oceanic 815...


----------



## DevdogAZ

hefe said:


> No, _we're_ the survivors of Oceanic 815...


There were no survivors of Oceanic flight 815.


----------



## slocko

Hey, someone got a hold of the main script of lost and spilled the beans.

Some people are going to be mad.

In 1973 the Hanso Foundation bought the island and used it as a test site for research involving predicting the future and accelerated learning.

The foundation's ultimate intention was to rediscover ancient techniques which could be used to bring about world peace.

Flight 815 crashed as it became caught in a temporal vortex generated by Dharma time travel experiments. The survivors of flight 815 are all part of a sophisticated psychological experiment and the so-called 'monster' is in fact projected telekinetic energy controlled by a group of scientists hidden on the island.

There are two groups of Others. One group are the results of a human cloning experiment and the other are survivors of a ship wreck which occured several years ago.

The 'incident' mentioned in the orientation film refers to an almost-successful attempt to hack into Dharma's central computer and the pressing of the hatch button is merely a method that the Hanso Foundation use to determine that there are still people alive on the island.

Bernard is an android and the numbers represent a physical constant which is central to the physics of time travel.


----------



## slocko

and if you want more spoilers go to:

http://www.lost-theory-generator.com/

LOL>


----------



## xuxa

flyersfan said:


> Neither. The producers actually wanted a 5 year run from the beginning, but ABC has agreed in principle to 3 more seasons with 16 episodes per season. I'm sure the contract is written so they can back out if the ratings tank, but if we make it to the series finale the show will have run for approximately 118 episodes (depending how you count the 2 hr shows) over 6 seasons.


It won't ever be canceled at this point, they want to clear 100 episodes for syndication purposes


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

xuxa said:


> It won't ever be canceled at this point, they want to clear 100 episodes for syndication purposes


...well, that tends to be a lot less true for heavily serialized shows, which don't do well in syndication anyway.

But given ABC's investment, both in the show and now in the show's creators, plus the fact that its ratings "fall" this season still makes it one of the more popular shows on television,* and all the ancillary money (especially DVD), and I doubt there's anything to worry about.

*All the worry over falling ratings haven't been about whether the show is still profitable, but rather over _how_ profitable it is due to advertising revenue.


----------



## phox_mulder

Just watched this last night.

I was able to read through all the posts thus far and just want to add a few observations.

Jacks father: The new Chief of Surgery did do a facial "huh, what?" when Jack said to go upstairs and ask check with his father, then told Jack he needed to talk to him in his office, really needed to talk to him in his office. I took this to be "Jack, you're dads dead, has been for many years, you need to get into a program for the booze and oxy, oh, your priveleges here at this hospital are hereby revoked"

Kate not being in jail: There very well could have already been a trial, and she was found not guilty due to extenuating circumstances, the guy being scum.
Or, the authorities could have figured being marooned on an island was punishment enough.
The flash forward could easily be 2-3 years or more in the future.

Charlie is dead, there is no way he could have fit through that porthole, let alone have enough oxygen to make it to the surface.

Oceanic Airways could have made a comeback after the rescue, and the subsequent FAA findings of big magnetic anomoly causing the crash, not pilot or airline negligence.

That's all for now.


phox


----------



## Turtleboy

phox_mulder said:


> Just watched this last night.
> 
> I was able to read through all the posts thus far and just want to add a few observations.
> 
> Jacks father: The new Chief of Surgery did do a facial "huh, what?" when Jack said to go upstairs and ask check with his father, then told Jack he needed to talk to him in his office, really needed to talk to him in his office. I took this to be "Jack, you're dads dead, has been for many years, you need to get into a program for the booze and oxy, oh, your priveleges here at this hospital are hereby revoked"
> 
> Kate not being in jail: There very well could have already been a trial, and she was found not guilty due to extenuating circumstances, the guy being scum.
> Or, the authorities could have figured being marooned on an island was punishment enough.
> The flash forward could easily be 2-3 years or more in the future.
> 
> Charlie is dead, there is no way he could have fit through that porthole, let alone have enough oxygen to make it to the surface.
> 
> Oceanic Airways could have made a comeback after the rescue, and the subsequent FAA findings of big magnetic anomoly causing the crash, not pilot or airline negligence.
> 
> That's all for now.
> 
> phox


Dammit, stop being reasonable and making sense!


----------



## phox_mulder

Turtleboy said:


> Dammit, stop being reasonable and making sense!


You're right.

That kind of reasoning has no place in a Lost thread. 

phox


----------



## mqpickles

slocko said:


> Hey, someone got a hold of the main script of lost and spilled the beans.
> 
> Some people are going to be mad.
> 
> In 1973 the Hanso Foundation bought the island and used it as a test site for research involving predicting the future and accelerated learning.
> 
> The foundation's ultimate intention was to rediscover ancient techniques which could be used to bring about world peace.
> 
> Flight 815 crashed as it became caught in a temporal vortex generated by Dharma time travel experiments. The survivors of flight 815 are all part of a sophisticated psychological experiment and the so-called 'monster' is in fact projected telekinetic energy controlled by a group of scientists hidden on the island.
> 
> There are two groups of Others. One group are the results of a human cloning experiment and the other are survivors of a ship wreck which occured several years ago.
> 
> The 'incident' mentioned in the orientation film refers to an almost-successful attempt to hack into Dharma's central computer and the pressing of the hatch button is merely a method that the Hanso Foundation use to determine that there are still people alive on the island.
> 
> Bernard is an android and the numbers represent a physical constant which is central to the physics of time travel.


No way.

No android would have spilled its guts (gears?) that fast.


----------



## teknikel

phox_mulder said:


> Just watched this last night.
> 
> Charlie is dead, there is no way he could have fit through that porthole, let alone have enough oxygen to make it to the surface.
> phox


Won't dispute Charlie's death. And this really doesn't have much to do about the how, but if he was able to get enough O to get to down the station wouldn't it be reasonable to believe he could have enough to get up to the surface (the bends notwithstanding)?


----------



## DevdogAZ

teknikel said:


> Won't dispute Charlie's death. And this really doesn't have much to do about the how, but if he was able to get enough O to get to down the station wouldn't it be reasonable to believe he could have enough to get up to the surface (the bends notwithstanding)?


I think he's saying that under the circumstances in which we last saw Charlie (drifting lifelessly in a locked room, having exhaled any oxygen he had left), there's no way he'd be able to get enough air to make it to the surface, even if he could fit through the porthole or could somehow get to the moon pool.


----------



## tewcewl

jonblaze said:


> That was perhaps the most puzzling scene of this episode. Despite his assertions to the contrary, Locke simply isn't a "hunter." Locke couldn't kill his father, he couldn't kill Jack (to prevent the phone call), and he couldn't kill that undercover cop on the commune. But he had no compunction about killing (as opposed to incapacitating) Naomi. It just didn't fit with his prior character development.


I think this says MORE about the character of Naomi than it does about John Locke, based on what we know about Locke, including all the scenes you just described.


----------



## jeff125va

Can't wait to go back and watch this one again. I wonder if there won't be some "Sixth Sense" type moments watching it the second time around knowing it was a flash-forward.

I'm another one thinking that we'll be seeing flash-forwards from now on. I could see the "everything will change" simply meaning that now we know that they will get home eventually, but to me it would make more sense for us to learn more about what happens to them after that. Seems like we've had pretty much all the major questions answered already - Locke's legs, what Kate did, etc. I can't see them getting rescued too many episodes prior to the series finale, and I think they've opened up too many questions now about the future to leave us with only what we saw in this episode. They give us bits and pieces the way we got them in the flashbacks and could definitely avoid giving away exactly what happened on the island. We saw plenty of the flashbacks in non-chronological order and were left wondering what had happened previously.

While it's definitely "too obvious" that Kate was referring to Sawyer, that doesn't mean she wasn't referring to Sawyer. Could be a little reverse psychology there. If it is though, something must have happened between him and Jack if she had to sneak out to see him.

My guess is that the person in the casket will end up being J** **ntham. They could have easily shown us absolutely nothing to go on from the newspaper, and had to know that people would be taking screen-caps and trying to read as much of it as possible. Although it could also be someone whom we have met, but who is using an assumed name.


----------



## brianp6621

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, time for a little review. This is the "spoiler" post that people were complaining about:
> 
> NOTHING about future episodes. ALL of the "future episode," contract issue, stuff was added to the thread by PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS POST.
> 
> The spoiler police were the ones committing the spoiler crimes, not the person they were complaining about.


Ok, I'll only reopen this briefly because of this new evidence. (and I was gone for 4 days)

I never read the original post because I avidly avoid all possible spoilers and therefore was only responding on Fish Man's reaction/position/information.

Based on what the spoiler actually was (as now presented), I don't really consider what was posted to be a spoiler. It is clear from the show that everyone is to assume that Charlie died. If that changes later, the post does not indicate in any way and therefore is not technically a spoiler.

Now hypothetically(and you'll see why I am exploring this below) had the original article talking about Dominic's contract been posted, I still stand by my original point that this is a spoiler in the true sense/meaning of the word and the forum's rules and disagree with the mod's ruling on this. However this doesn't matter for this case anymore but hopefully could help reinforce the precedent of "better safe than sorry" for spoilers.


----------



## brianp6621

DevdogAZ said:


> I think he's saying that under the circumstances in which we last saw Charlie (drifting lifelessly in a locked room, having exhaled any oxygen he had left), there's no way he'd be able to get enough air to make it to the surface, even if he could fit through the porthole or could somehow get to the moon pool.


And although I don't believe it, it could be very possible.

As people stated, once the water flowed about the porthole, it would stop coming in. Therefore there would be quite a bit of air trapped in the top of that room. So what if Charlie changes his mind, and quick swims up to the water's surface and takes a gulp of air.

Then it really matters if he can fit through the porthole or not. Or if he wanted to flood the station by opening the door again.

I don't believe this will happen but pointing out that lack of oxygen would not be the problem.


----------



## Fraser+Dief

Hate to bring up another dead/not dead issue, but why does everyone keep saying "killed Naomi"? He threw the knife at her, she coughed up some blood, fell. That's all we saw. Knife sticking out somewhere in the upper back/shoulder area.

Yeah, they don't need her any more, so she's almost surely dead, but there's nothing in that episode that actually says "dead". If next season opened with them tending a wounded Naomi, I don't think too many would cry foul.

Having just watched it again, I think it's Locke in the coffin. We need a guy who'd die alone, and would choose suicide. Sawyer is a small possibility, but what we know of him just doesn't fit in my mind. Hurley and his money will always have friends/family around. Ben? Doesn't seem like the hanging type.


----------



## hefe

Fraser+Dief said:


> Hate to bring up another dead/not dead issue, but why does everyone keep saying "killed Naomi"? He threw the knife at her, she coughed up some blood, fell. That's all we saw. Knife sticking out somewhere in the upper back/shoulder area.


Well, I just read an interview with the actress, and she said that she was ok with her death, and that she knew she was only signed on for a few episodes...oh wait...I forgot to tag that!


----------



## thenightfly42

stalemate said:


> Finally watched this one tonight. About 1 minute into the episode my wife said "pause it." I paused it and she asked "Do you think this is before the island or after they got off the island?" I answered "After" and she said "Good, me too."


I appear to be the only person who thought "alternate timeline", then? I mean, don't they always give the mirror universe character a beard to let you know he's the bad guy in the alternate universe?

(I gave up on this theory halfway through the episode, but no one else mentioned it, so...)


----------



## SugarBowl

Why didn't Ben tear down the antenna a long time ago? 

Wouldn't the french message finally be heard once the looking glass was shut down?

The GPS enabled cell phone was jammed by the french transmission, but Penny's video message could be received under water?

Did Ben really need to chart out an intercept course to the antenna?


----------



## tanstaafl

SugarBowl said:


> Why didn't Ben tear down the antenna a long time ago?


Probably assumed that as long as the jamming signal was running it didn't matter.



> Wouldn't the french message finally be heard once the looking glass was shut down?


Presumably, but it was turned off a few minutes after the jamming ended.



> The GPS enabled cell phone was jammed by the french transmission, but Penny's video message could be received under water?


There are a lot of things about that transmission that bothered me. Like, was that transmission being blocked by the jamming? If so, why was she there and waiting as soon as the jamming ended? Why was she monitoring/broadcasting on the frequency used by the Looking Glass anyway?

As for Penny's signal, I would guess that the cable leading to shore may have led to an antenna somewhere. I was wondering more how Ben was able to talk to the Looking Glass via walkie; if the cable led to an antenna it would make sense.



> Did Ben really need to chart out an intercept course to the antenna?


I don't think he was charting a course to the antenna, he was trying to determine where the best place to intersect the Losties would be.


----------



## ironchef

phox_mulder said:


> Oceanic Airways could have made a comeback after the rescue, and the subsequent FAA findings of big magnetic anomoly causing the crash, not pilot or airline negligence.
> 
> That's all for now.
> 
> phox


Or it could just be doing a Braniff.


----------



## DevdogAZ

brianp6621 said:


> And although I don't believe it, it could be very possible.
> 
> As people stated, once the water flowed about the porthole, it would stop coming in. Therefore there would be quite a bit of air trapped in the top of that room. So what if Charlie changes his mind, and quick swims up to the water's surface and takes a gulp of air.
> 
> Then it really matters if he can fit through the porthole or not. Or if he wanted to flood the station by opening the door again.
> 
> I don't believe this will happen but pointing out that lack of oxygen would not be the problem.


Based on everything I know about water and physics, you are correct that once the water reached the level of the top of the porthole, it should stop flowing in leaving an air pocket at the top of the room. However, the producers seem to have decided against using that reality, as shown by this screen cap:










BTW, this picture was already posted and this same issue already discussed by hefe in post #527. This thread truly is going in circles.


----------



## danterner

SugarBowl said:


> The GPS enabled cell phone was jammed by the french transmission, but Penny's video message could be received under water?


Don't think too hard about the whole french transmission thing - it'll make your head hurt. You'll find yourself asking imponderables like: Why was the sat phone blocked by the french transmission, in the first place? If you recall, after Charlie stopped the Looking Glass from jamming transmissions, the Losties still had to turn off Danielle's message before they could use the sat phone. Why? Sat signals should only be blocked by jamming devices or solid objects that block the line of sight to the satellite. Danielle's distress radio signal should have had no impact...

Best not to go down that rabbit hole.


----------



## brianp6621

DevdogAZ said:


> Based on everything I know about water and physics, you are correct that once the water reached the level of the top of the porthole, it should stop flowing in leaving an air pocket at the top of the room. However, the producers seem to have decided against using that reality, as shown by this screen cap:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, this picture was already posted and this same issue already discussed by hefe in post #527. This thread truly is going in circles.


Sorry I somehow missed that discussion. True, I agree the show probably didn't accurately portray the water in that shot (probably because it wouldn't be nearly as dramatic if there was an "out" clearly visible.


----------



## tewcewl

danterner said:
 

> Don't think too hard about the whole french transmission thing - it'll make your head hurt. You'll find yourself asking imponderables like: Why was the sat phone blocked by the french transmission, in the first place? If you recall, after Charlie stopped the Looking Glass from jamming transmissions, the Losties still had to turn off Danielle's message before they could use the sat phone. Why? Sat signals should only be blocked by jamming devices or solid objects that block the line of sight to the satellite. Danielle's distress radio signal should have had no impact...
> 
> Best not to go down that rabbit hole.


IIRC, the order was Danielle's transmission went offline FIRST and then the Looking Glass signal jammer was shut down. And then, and only then, was Penny's broadcast able to be intercepted.

So, the satellite phone was jammed by the Looking Glass station, not by Danielle's transmission.


----------



## brianp6621

tewcewl said:


> IIRC, the order was Danielle's transmission went offline FIRST and then the Looking Glass signal jammer was shut down. And then, and only then, was Penny's broadcast able to be intercepted.
> 
> So, the satellite phone was jammed by the Looking Glass station, not by Danielle's transmission.


I think it was the other way around. They shut down the jamming and realized they still couldn't make a call. Then the got to the comm tower and shut off the signal and were then able to make the call.


----------



## wprager

brianp6621 said:


> I think it was the other way around. They shut down the jamming and realized they still couldn't make a call. Then the got to the comm tower and shut off the signal and were then able to make the call.


Yes. After Charlie turned off the jamming signal Naomi got the green light on her sat phone. But then she still couldn't make a call. Then they went inside the transmission room and turned off Danielle's signal, but she couldn't get a signal *inside* the shack, so she had to go outside and that's when Locke-the-coward killed (I assume) her. Why they needed to make it that complicated is beyond me, unless we are all missing something in that scene. Could they not have simply gotten the green light and just before she got the call, Locke shows up to kill her? Am I over-analyzing or is there some significance to the scene in the transmission shack?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

brianp6621 said:


> I think it was the other way around. They shut down the jamming and realized they still couldn't make a call. Then the got to the comm tower and shut off the signal and were then able to make the call.


I don't remember the exact logic, but didn't they send teams to the Looking Glass and the tower simultaneously?


----------



## brianp6621

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't remember the exact logic, but didn't they send teams to the Looking Glass and the tower simultaneously?


Basically yes, but I can't remember either why they did this. I think they thought the signal was interfering but then Juliet told them Ben was actively jamming also so they went to both. I can't remember why they took everyone to the comm tower though (rescue point?)


----------



## Church AV Guy

Not to put too fine a distinction on it, but I think the Looking Glass was jamming all transmissions, and it needed to be shut down. That was why there was the red light on the sat phone. After the jamming stopped, the phone was able to get a signal, but it was only Danielle's because that was so much more powerful than any other signal. Didn't Sayid say that the frequency of Danielle's transmission was interfering with the cell phone? So the jamming was blocking everything, and Danielle's was specifically interfering with the sat phone. Both had to be shut down for it to work properly.

Don't ask me to explain how the radio transmission could block a satellite phone. They should be on very different frequencies...

I have read all these messages so far, and I have yet to hear this outlandish theory of mine. Jack saws THREE TIMES in this episode that he is going to get the Losties rescued, "ALL OF THEM!" If I get the dates right, they are right around Christmas. So, the first landing craft from the boat shows up and takes a few people off the island. It isn't a large craft, maybe a helicopter. It makes a few trips and then...

The tsunami happens! (Day after Christmas.) It sinks the boat and kills all who were originally taken. Those still on the beach are gone. Only those who stayed behind and inland are still alive--the ones who elected to be last.

That would make Jack a little upset with his decision. Of course, if they had stayed on the beach, they ALL would have died, so I guess that isn't much comfort either. Survivor's guilt?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

danterner said:


> Don't think too hard about the whole french transmission thing - it'll make your head hurt. You'll find yourself asking imponderables like: Why was the sat phone blocked by the french transmission, in the first place? If you recall, after Charlie stopped the Looking Glass from jamming transmissions, the Losties still had to turn off Danielle's message before they could use the sat phone. Why? Sat signals should only be blocked by jamming devices or solid objects that block the line of sight to the satellite. Danielle's distress radio signal should have had no impact...
> 
> Best not to go down that rabbit hole.


... and how would a cartridge run in a continuous loop, for 16 years without wearing down the tape? Must have been a good brand


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

DCIFRTHS said:


> ... and how would a cartridge run in a continuous loop, for 16 years without wearing down the tape? Must have been a good brand


The island wanted it to go on.

The island healed it.


----------



## Boston Fan

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, time for a little review. This is the "spoiler" post that people were complaining about:
> 
> NOTHING about future episodes. ALL of the "future episode," contract issue, stuff was added to the thread by PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS POST.
> 
> The spoiler police were the ones committing the spoiler crimes, not the person they were complaining about.


 :up:

Kind of amusing that such a heated spoiler war came from a post in which, upon further review, there clearly was not a single spoiler! 

And while I appreciate the honesty of some who were arguing on the "It WAS a spoiler" side in admitting that they never actually read the 'offending' post (for fear of reading a spoiler), it does remind me of the "She's a witch!" scene from _Monty Python and the Holy Grail_. Never mind the facts - it MUST have been a spoiler because someone else thought so!


----------



## mqpickles

tewcewl said:


> I think this says MORE about the character of Naomi than it does about John Locke, based on what we know about Locke, including all the scenes you just described.


It (i.e., Locke throwing a knife at Naomi) probably also says something about "Walt's" message to him.


----------



## Mike Farrington

DCIFRTHS said:


> ... and how would a cartridge run in a continuous loop, for 16 years without wearing down the tape? Must have been a good brand


On another note, that iteration counter should have overflowed long ago. I mean, who designed it to last 16 years?!?


----------



## tewcewl

mqpickles said:


> It (i.e., Locke throwing a knife at Naomi) probably also says something about "Walt's" message to him.


True. There may be a flashback in Season Four that will flesh this scene out.


----------



## MacThor

justapixel said:


> He knows Jack. He's grown fond of Jack. Jack is his part of his island family. It would be much harder to kill him, and we know that John couldn't kill his own father himself, even after what Dad did to him.
> 
> But, Locke also has a special relationship with the island, and he doesn't want to leave. He fears if he does, he'll be paralyzed again. He believes this woman will threaten everything he wants, and so he kills her.
> 
> But, it's different with Jack. He still hopes he can convince Jack that staying on the island is what they need to do.
> 
> (Apparently he does, but only at some point in the distant future.)
> 
> We also still don't know what this woman is doing. He may not have killed her to prevent the call..... It may be that she has nothing to do with the rescue and is there for some nefarious reason, that John knows and Charlie almost knew....maybe killing her could halp stave of disaster even if Jack made the call.
> 
> I think it's perfectly in character that he killed the stranger but not Jack.


I agree. This also got me thinking....perhaps Locke's sacrifice gesture (killing his Dad) really _was_ a test by the island/Jacob. Yes, Ben took advantage of it to humiliate Locke, but maybe he knew -- or was told -- that Locke would have to kill a "family" member to protect the island. Instead, Locke "cheated" by using Sawyer to do his dirty work -- and thus he failed in his role as island protector in his confrontation with Jack. He can kill a stranger/threat, but not someone close to him.

Two more "I wonders":
Does Juliette, or do any of the non-original-hostile Others, know what Ben did to the initial Dharma Initiative? At least Mikhael seemed to know about the purge, but does he know the real story?

Since the show began, has anyone besides Kelvin claimed to be part of the Dharma Initiative post-purge?


----------



## Delta13

MacThor said:


> Two more "I wonders":
> Does Juliette, or do any of the non-original-hostile Others, know what Ben did to the initial Dharma Initiative? At least Mikhael seemed to know about the purge, but does he know the real story?
> 
> Since the show began, has anyone besides Kelvin claimed to be part of the Dharma Initiative post-purge?


The answer to the first almost has to be no, with a caveat. We don't know who is an original Other and who is a later Other. Richard is all we know of the originals, but the faction he belongs to must certainly know too. The ex-military hired gun types, like Pickett and the guy leading the beach assault, probably do not. I think Juliet knows something, but not the full story.

Mikhail is an interesting case. As an ex-military communications/intelligence type, he seems to have gathered parts and pieces of information and put a lot of the story together. Perfect that he was the one running the Flame. He was also the only one besides Kelvin who was wearing Dharma jumpsuits after the purge, for whatever that's worth. (Hey, maybe it was the only thing around in his size!) He also claimed to be the last member of Dharma on the island.

(Speaking of Mikhail, after his surviving the speargun to the chest, do you still take his story about the perimeter fence being on "stun" seriously anymore? If he survives the hand grenade fallout then I really will think it was a lie. But I hope he survives to S4.)


----------



## brusly

Good posting.


----------



## Mike Farrington

Delta13 said:


> (Speaking of Mikhail, after his surviving the speargun to the chest, do you still take his story about the perimeter fence being on "stun" seriously anymore? If he survives the hand grenade fallout then I really will think it was a lie. But I hope he survives to S4.)


Especially since he didn't even have scuba gear on, just a swimming mask (not even a snorkel).


----------



## lew

16 is the minimum number of episodes needed for a "full season". ABC has international contracts for Lost and wanted 3 seasons. The producers wanted 2 so the compromise was 3 short seasons.

Based on the strong season finale and a finite end date I'd expect the ratings will improve, or at worst stay flat. Between overseas commitments and DVD sales the ratings would have to really tank for abc to cut the show short.

edited to wonder why the official end date of LOST isn't considered a spoiler.  Knowing the end date affects our perception as to the progress of the show.



flyersfan said:


> Neither. The producers actually wanted a 5 year run from the beginning, but ABC has agreed in principle to 3 more seasons with 16 episodes per season. I'm sure the contract is written so they can back out if the ratings tank, but if we make it to the series finale the show will have run for approximately 118 episodes (depending how you count the 2 hr shows) over 6 seasons.


----------



## jeff125va

Another reason I think they'll do a lot of flash-forwards is the aging factor. If they continue at anywhere near the current pace of about a little over an episode per day, they'll have been on the island for about 6 months, yet the actors will have aged 5-6 years, depending on the actual shooting schedule. Of course, they'll still have to deal how they look in the "present" scenes on the island, but at least in the future (relative to the on-island days) scenes they'll look how they should. You could really see the difference watching "The Answers" episode, which showed some of them all the way back to the pilot episode.


----------



## lew

Consistently spoilerizing items that don't belong being spoilerized results in viewers having to view hidden text, some of which are spoilers and some of which aren't.

Spoilerizing items which clearly doesn't have to be spoilerized is almost as bad as not spoilerizing something that should be spoilerized. What would it accomplish if some posters decided to just spoilerize all their posts?

One could argue the number of episodes and seasons remaining is a big spoiler. It affects our perception as to the progress of the story.



Fish Man said:


> Thanks for the official feedback, JAP.
> 
> My personal policy in these threads is: If it came from an article, even if it states something about the plot of the show that many would consider to be bloody obvious, *SPOILERIZE*.
> 
> Maybe I was being anal, but that's where I was coming from on this issue.


----------



## jeff125va

lew said:


> One could argue the number of episodes and seasons remaining is a big spoiler. It affects our perception as to the progress of the story.


If that's true, then one could also argue that mentioning the fact that there are _any_ episodes left at all is a spoiler. How do you know last night wasn't the series finale? It's based on information that didn't appear during the episode. There weren't even any scenes from the next episode, so maybe that was the last one ever.

I'm certainly not making those arguments. But if it's a spoiler now to mention when the series finale is going to take place, then it would be a spoiler the day before, too, amidst all the hype and hoopla that will inevitably surround it. To suggest that mentioning the "series finale next week" during the penultimate episode thread would be a spoiler is absurd.


----------



## lew

I used one of the smilies things the first time I made this point 

Obviously I don't think the fact that an episode is the season finale or that the show has been renewed for a few more seasons is a spoiler. Nor do I think some quotes from an actor talking about his character being killed *after he was killed off in the show* is a spoiler.

The only way to "be sure" is to spoilerize all your posts and then what good does it do.

People who are that concerned with spoilers probably shouldn't be reading internet boards.



jeff125va said:


> If that's true, then one could also argue that mentioning the fact that there are _any_ episodes left at all is a spoiler. How do you know last night wasn't the series finale? It's based on information that didn't appear during the episode. There weren't even any scenes from the next episode, so maybe that was the last one ever.
> 
> I'm certainly not making those arguments. But if it's a spoiler now to mention when the series finale is going to take place, then it would be a spoiler the day before, too, amidst all the hype and hoopla that will inevitably surround it. To suggest that mentioning the "series finale next week" during the penultimate episode thread would be a spoiler is absurd.


----------



## hefe

lew said:


> I used one of the smilies things the first time I made this point


Most people view that particular smiley as a sarcastic roll of the eyes, not a playful joke. It actually makes the comment seems intentionally antagonistic, despite what you may have intended.


----------



## wprager

I don't know why this has not been brought up yet. It's only been a week 

The person on the other end of Naomi's sat phone identifies himself as Minkowski. Hermann Minkowski was a mathematician who (plagiarizing from Wikipedia):
_...developed the geometry of numbers and who used geometrical methods to solve difficult problems in number theory, mathematical physics, and the theory of relativity._

His work in relativity is especially relevant. Again, from the Wikipedia entry:
Relativity

_By 1907 Minkowski realized that the special theory of relativity, introduced by Einstein in 1905 and based on previous work of Lorentz and Poincaré, could be best understood in a four dimensional space, since known as "*Minkowski spacetime*", in which the time and space are not separated entities but intermingled in a four dimensional space-time, and in which the Lorentz geometry of special relativity can be nicely represented. The beginning part of his address[1] delivered at the 80th Assembly of German Natural Scientists and Physicians (September 21, 1908) is now famous:

The views of space and time which I wish to lay before you have sprung from the soil of experimental physics, and therein lies their strength. They are radical. Henceforth space by itself, and time by itself, are doomed to fade away into mere shadows, and only a kind of union of the two will preserve an independent reality.
_


----------



## jkeegan

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that if the show intended there to be any question as to Charlie's status, they wouldn't allow him to make any comments about his contract status. So whether we read about it in an article, or hear the producers confirm it in a podcast, or something else, the fact that they're clearly releasing the info and want the fans to be informed about it indicates that it's information that should be posted in this thread.


While that's a compelling argument, there's a problem that arises from it..

It's kinda like World War II, spying, and encryption.. We'd learn secrets from the Germans, and then had to just sit on a good portion of them, because if we acted on them, we might be revealing that we'd broken their encryption, and they'd change it.

If it's OK to post external information just because the actor is "allowed to talk about it", then a _lack_ of comments from an actor is information too - the writers aren't letting him/her talk about something.. _Theoretically_, people might start posting things like "Ya know, no public comments from Dominic yet saying he's allowed to say his character's status on the show........ so obviously, ...", which then borders on the fuzzy spoiler-ish area..

Theoretically.

As for this whole particular spoiler incident, I held off my $0.02 long enough, but we're still going, so here's my take:

1) Just spoiler tag the damned thing. The guy knew while posting it that it was external info - he thought "well, alright - whatever - I'm posting this..". You don't lose 100% of your audience just because it's spoiler tagged.. you only lose a small portion.

2) I'd be very upset if Charlie came back (especially after the previous week's top-five list and all, and his peaceful acceptance of his fate, etc). I had no doubts about his status. Still, hearing stuff from outside robs a bit of the magic "we don't know what we don't know" possibilities of where we're going.. If you're stumbing in a completely pitch-black room and feeling your way around, there's a sense of wonder. As soon as someone nails down with absolute certainty what the shape of the room looks like (by letting in light), the only areas left unexplored are the ones you can't see.. Not the best analogy, but..

3) The spoiler discussion has gone on for too long and is poisoning our summer/fall-long cliffhanger thread. No more saying it shouldn't be spoilerized, no more saying it should. Rob, you're not going anywhere (please!), and the forum is still just as fun (except the burden of having to type leftsquarebracket s p o i l e r rightsquarebracket and leftsquarebracket / s p o i l e r rightsquarebracket before/after some of what you say). Fishman, I agree with you, your point is made, stop before you lose your point through repetition. Everyone else - again - enough.

WHO WOULD POSSIBLY PROLONG THIS SPOILER DISCUSSION WITH ANOTHER POST?!

Umm, er, oh yeah.. Me. 

If we must talk about non-Lost topics, let's move onto smeeking. I'm posting this while only on page 16 out of 20. 

(just kidding, back to Lost)..

So, who thinks Jacob is a captured telepathic intelligent alien kept somewhere on/within the island (or he's the island itself), and Dharma was watching him, and he asked the "hostiles" for help?


----------



## mica

jkeegan said:


> Oh man! Imagine how cool that'd be, if we find a "flashback" in a previous episode that fits more as a forward? Damn, there's gonna be a lot of rewatching..





stalemate said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I remember reading something about Jack's tattoos revealing some big secret in the finale. Something like we should pay careful attention to his tattoos.


I submit to the forum that the "tattoo" episode was a flash-forward. It would explain why Jack was randomly vacationing in Singapore, or wherever, and why he was suddenly obsessed with getting ink when he learned the tattoo artist could "see" his true identity. It would also explain the drug addiction.


----------



## MacThor

mica said:


> I submit to the forum that the "tattoo" episode was a flash-forward. It would explain why Jack was randomly vacationing in Singapore, or wherever, and why he was suddenly obsessed with getting ink when he learned the tattoo artist could "see" his true identity. It would also explain the drug addiction.


If it was a flash-forward, why did he have his tattoos when the plane crashed?


----------



## markz

hefe said:


> Most people view that particular smiley as a sarcastic roll of the eyes, not a playful joke. It actually makes the comment seems intentionally antagonistic, despite what you may have intended.


In fact, if you hover your mouse pointer over this smilie  , it says "Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)", so that is exactly what it is!


----------



## Boston Fan

jkeegan said:


> As for this whole particular spoiler incident, I held off my $0.02 long enough, but we're still going, so here's my take:
> 
> 1) Just spoiler tag the damned thing. The guy knew while posting it that it was external info - he thought "well, alright - whatever - I'm posting this..". You don't lose 100% of your audience just because it's spoiler tagged.. you only lose a small portion.


Except for the fact that when you read the original post, there IS NO SPOILER. As correctly pointed out by Rob, all of the alleged spoilers (contract talk, etc.) came after the 'offending' post, and were often perpetuated by those complaining about spoilers. Take a look at the original post and tell me exactly the parts that you feel were spoilers and should have been spoilerized.

Not to mention the fact that the very thread everyone is posting in HAS A CLEARLY LABELED "SPOILERS" TAG in the title! If some folks are so anal about spoilers, why would they dare to venture into a clearly labeled "Spoilers" thread, and then complain that they found spoilers?

It has been a very silly thing to watch.


----------



## hefe

Boston Fan said:


> Not to mention the fact that the very thread everyone is posting in HAS A CLEARLY LABELED "SPOILERS" TAG in the title! If some folks are so anal about spoilers, why would they dare to venture into a clearly labeled "Spoilers" thread, and then complain that they found spoilers?


That's completely irrelevant. There is a legitimate discussion about whether the item should be considered a spoiler. What you suggest is that an episode thread labeled "spoilers" is free and clear to include untagged spoilers for events _beyond_ the episode being discussed. That's simply not the way it works here. 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3471424&&#post3471424


----------



## lonwolf615

so much for letting it go...hefe is right though.


----------



## jkeegan

On the island, Kate certainly wanted to go back for people all the time (well, specifically Jack).. was she like that before the island? Maybe they'll make an interesting (coincidental?) story line that when people leave the island, they tend to revert back to their pre-resolution states (not literally, but in a story-telling sense)..

Maybe Kate doesn't care about going back now because she'd only learned to do that on the island, and doesn't care about that now (what with the changes/pressures of society affecting her decisions, etc).

Maybe Jack lost all of his new found ability to lead..

Locke's worried that he'd literally lose the use of his legs, but maybe if Charlie had made it off, he'd become a drug addict again..

Just a thought.


----------



## tewcewl

lonwolf615 said:


> so much for letting it go...hefe is right though.


 :up:


----------



## Boston Fan

hefe said:


> That's completely irrelevant. There is a legitimate discussion about whether the item should be considered a spoiler. What you suggest is that an episode thread labeled "spoilers" is free and clear to include untagged spoilers for events _beyond_ the episode being discussed. That's simply not the way it works here.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3471424&&#post3471424


Thanks for the link - that makes perfect sense. 

Regarding my other point, I have yet to see someone clearly state the specific items that they think should have been spoilerized in the post in question.


----------



## mqpickles

jkeegan said:


> On the island, Kate certainly wanted to go back for people all the time (well, specifically Jack).. was she like that before the island? Maybe they'll make an interesting (coincidental?) story line that when people leave the island, they tend to revert back to their pre-resolution states (not literally, but in a story-telling sense)..
> 
> Maybe Kate doesn't care about going back now because she'd only learned to do that on the island, and doesn't care about that now (what with the changes/pressures of society affecting her decisions, etc).
> 
> Maybe Jack lost all of his new found ability to lead..
> 
> Locke's worried that he'd literally lose the use of his legs, but maybe if Charlie had made it off, he'd become a drug addict again..
> 
> Just a thought.


But pre-island Kate was always going back too. Maybe not _for _people, but at least _to _people. Her mom, Tom (MacKenzi Astin Tom not MC Gainy Tom). She got caught in Australia because she went back to help the old guy. She even went back to the bank_for_ that ridiculous toy airplane.

So I don't think this on-island going back for people thing is a disconnect from her pre-island character at all.

Maybe post-island she does go back . . . to Nathan Fillion and her "Monica" life. Maybe she can do taco night now. (I doubt that's it, but it's not the most far-fetched scenario ever raised here. High bar, I know.)


----------



## Delta13

8 months and 3 weeks left to go. Sigh. Whatever shall we fill the time with?

Oh yeah, the show ...   



jkeegan said:


> Maybe Jack lost all of his new found ability to lead..


 I rather think Jack lost his faith. His choices turned out wrong. Someone else alluded to it before, but it seems that the Man of Science must accept his inner Man of Faith.

As for Kate, who says there is anybody (or anything) left to go back to on the island?


----------



## wprager

WTH? Everyone (almost) is still buzzing about the


Spoiler



spoiler nonsense


 and nobody comments on Minkowski? Or are you all still trying to understand all those formulae?


----------



## Hunter Green

What's the relevance of the Minkowski math that makes it more than just another name that happens to be shared by thousands of people?


----------



## bdlucas

Hunter Green said:


> What's the relevance of the Minkowski math that makes it more than just another name that happens to be shared by thousands of people?


It's another instance of using the name of a famous thinker whose work is related somehow to a theme of the show. In this case Minkowski's work in relativity relates to the malleability of space and time, which is a theme of the show.

Surprised they haven't yet found Einstein on the Beach.


----------



## unixadm

hefe said:


> That's completely irrelevant. There is a legitimate discussion about whether the item should be considered a spoiler. What you suggest is that an episode thread labeled "spoilers" is free and clear to include untagged spoilers for events _beyond_ the episode being discussed. That's simply not the way it works here.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3471424&&#post3471424


As I had said in an earlier post....this is completely moot here in this thread since JustAPixel has already made her decision that it wasn't a spoiler.

The original post in question was a single post....if someone had reported it as a spoiler and no one discussed it, one of the mods may have made it a spoiler or removed it if they felt it was. Even if it wasn't tagged later, it was a single post that would have gotten buried in the dozens of pages here...but it keeps getting brought up bringing MORE attention to it.

In my opinion, although borderline, I don't feel it is a spoiler. Charlie CLEARLY died in this episode...there is no doubt about it. It wasn't left as a cliffhanger. Discussing the fact that he died and the actor's reaction to it would still fall in line with this episode. It's a done deal....once someone is dead on the island, they are dead....Boone, Shannon, Ana Lucia, Libby just to name a few...they may be back in a flashback, but people don't die and come back to life on the island. They may be on the precipice of death and heal quickly (ala Locke and the gunshot, Charlie and hanging from the tree, etc), but once they are dead they are dead. We know the outcome of this episode and discussing that outcome and reactions to that outcome is not giving away any future plots.

Now, if a quote from Dominic Monahan was posted in the PREVIOUS week's thread, then it would give away the plot for the finale, and it would clearly be a spoiler.


----------



## jeff125va

Boston Fan said:


> Thanks for the link - that makes perfect sense.
> 
> Regarding my other point, I have yet to see someone clearly state the specific items that they think should have been spoilerized in the post in question.


Just to be clear, I'm assuming the post you're referring to is #396 quoting Dominic Monaghan in the EW interview. If one considers it a spoiler (I do, but I'm not all that upset about it) then I'd say the entire post should have been spoilerized. Charlie's death may have occurred during the timeframe of this episode (we didn't have split screens like 24, but since we know he died, it's certainly fair to say that the death took place during the episode), but since we didn't see him die or receive confirmation that he died during the episode, the argument is that this information constitutes a spoiler since it will be revealed or confirmed in a future episode. While I personally concluded that he had died, given that we've seen him appear to be much more obviously dead before, I think it's at least reasonable to argue that we didn't know for certain.

I'm not trying to make a big stink about it one way or the other, just laying out the argument in response to your question.


----------



## unixadm

jeff125va said:


> ..... but since we didn't see him die or receive confirmation that he died during the episode, the argument is that this information constitutes a spoiler since it will be revealed or confirmed in a future episode. While I personally concluded that he had died, given that we've seen him appear to be much more obviously dead before, I think it's at least reasonable to argue that we didn't know for certain.
> 
> I'm not trying to make a big stink about it one way or the other, just laying out the argument in response to your question.


I think we did see him die:










He locked himself in the communications room, let it flood and took his last breath. There is no way that Desmond can rescue him in time to get him oxygen.

We have never seen him more obviously dead before....hanging from a tree isn't obviously dead....any of the other Desmond "flashes" showing Charlie die were glimpses of the future and we see him alive and well in the same episode. This was showing him die, plain and simple....and no one has died on the island and come back to life.


----------



## jeff125va

unixadm said:


> I think we did see him die:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He locked himself in the communications room, let it flood and took his last breath. There is no way that Desmond can rescue him in time to get him oxygen.
> 
> We have never seen him more obviously dead before....hanging from a tree isn't obviously dead....any of the other Desmond "flashes" showing Charlie die were glimpses of the future and we see him alive and well in the same episode. This was showing him die, plain and simple....and no one has died on the island and come back to life.


Jack was trying to resuscitate him for several minutes after he got him down from that tree. That was the type of scene that in a hospital show like ER, the other doctors and nurses would have been looking at the doctor with a look of pity at how futile his attempts were and wondering how much longer it would be until he faced reality. If that episode had ended right there, I think most of us would have thought the suggestion that he wasn't dead was ludicrous, even moreso than after this one (had we not had the confirmation).

Don't get me wrong, I would have agreed even without the actor interview that his demise was not in doubt, but I don't see anything in that scene that confirms he's already dead at that point. Not to mention that that was just after we saw him conscious, so there would be at least a couple minutes of unconsciousness from which he could, in theory at least, be resuscitated.


----------



## Martin Tupper

bdlucas said:


> If this is anywhere near accurate, I'd agree that the police where acting irresponsibly and this accident is on them. First, how does the motorcycle changing lanes to cut in front of another car cause the police car to crash into that other car? Second, given the result of the impact, it sounds like the police car was going very significantly faster than traffic. That's 7pm i.e. rush hour traffic on a major highly congested road. Irresponsible.


That didn't happen in this episode...it should CLEARLY be put in spoiler tags!!


----------



## hefe

unixadm said:


> As I had said in an earlier post....this is completely moot here in this thread since JustAPixel has already made her decision that it wasn't a spoiler.


Nothing in what I said is moot. I was informing a person about what episode spoilers are about because there seemed to be a misunderstanding based on what I was responding to. I did say that whether the item in question was a spoiler was a _legitimate argument_. Despite the ruling of the mod, I think that's still a fair statement.


----------



## mark1278

I am tired of reading about the spoiler situation. It seems like that took over so much of the thread. I ususally have a lot of fun reading this thread, but so much of it is about that one post. 

Anyway,

has anyone's opinion/theory about the whole plot of the show since watching this episode?


----------



## jeff125va

mark1278 said:


> I am tired of reading about the spoiler situation. It seems like that took over so much of the thread. I ususally have a lot of fun reading this thread, but so much of it is about that one post.
> 
> Anyway,
> 
> has anyone's opinion/theory about the whole plot of the show since watching this episode?


The whole plot? No. But I do think we'll see mostly, if not all, flash forwards now. I think most of the questions about the past have been answered now, and I think they raised a bunch of questions with just the one flash forward we've seen. I think they'll answer those as well as the general "what happens to everyone?" question. My guess is the sequence will sort of bounce around chronologically as it did with the flashbacks for each character.

As for overall plot theories, I don't think this episode dealt with anything as significant as some of the other recent ones, e.g. with Ben killing off the original Dharmaites and the one with Jacob.


----------



## lew

It sure looks like the people in the freighter are bad people.

We know at least Jack and Kate make if off the island. We don't know when. What we saw could wind up being the last scene in Lost. Jack and Kate could just as easily be rescued in the beginning of next season. A plot line could be Jack and Kate spending a season trying to return while we see what's happening to the rest of the survivors on the island.

My guess is we're going to see the better part of a season seeing Jack trying to get back to the Island. Either the middle season, Jack then spends the last season getting them all off OR the last season and LOST ends with Jack and Kate getting back to the island for life.



mark1278 said:


> I am tired of reading about the spoiler situation. It seems like that took over so much of the thread. I ususally have a lot of fun reading this thread, but so much of it is about that one post.
> 
> Anyway,
> 
> has anyone's opinion/theory about the whole plot of the show since watching this episode?


----------



## jeff125va

lew said:


> It sure looks like the people in the freighter are bad people.
> 
> We know at least Jack and Kate make if off the island. We don't know when. What we saw could wind up being the last scene in Lost. Jack and Kate could just as easily be rescued in the beginning of next season. A plot line could be Jack and Kate spending a season trying to return while we see what's happening to the rest of the survivors on the island.
> 
> My guess is we're going to see the better part of a season seeing Jack trying to get back to the Island. Either the middle season, Jack then spends the last season getting them all off OR the last season and LOST ends with Jack and Kate getting back to the island for life.


Well, probably. We know Naomi was lying, so unless she had some benevolent reason to do so, we can most likely conclude bad intentions.

While I'd bet heavily that the funeral was for someone we haven't met yet, I'd also bet that it's someone else from the island. So I don't think that it's just Jack and Kate. But yes, that's all we really know. But also from Jack's tone when he talks about hoping the plane crashes and saying they'd made a mistake, it doesn't seem like he's thinking about the rest of their friends still being back there (unless they wanted to stay). If somehow only Jack and Kate had made it home, I can't imagine it wouldn't be their life's mission to get the others (not "THE Others") rescued. Of course, there could be explanations for any of those things. But I think they'd need to be addressed one way or the other.


----------



## lew

It's possible Jack and Kate cut a deal to get off the island. Jack regrets leaving the others behind and wants to go back. Kate doesn't.

Also possible survivors like Locke decided to stay. Jack realizes he made a mistake not staying and wants to go back.

We know the show is going to run for 3 seasons. Instead of them getting rescued at the end we now have the suspense of not knowing when at least some of them will leave the island, when/if some of them return and what the final resolution will be.



jeff125va said:


> If somehow only Jack and Kate had made it home, I can't imagine it wouldn't be their life's mission to get the others (not "THE Others") rescued. Of course, there could be explanations for any of those things. But I think they'd need to be addressed one way or the other.


----------



## bdlucas

Martin Tupper said:


> That didn't happen in this episode...it should CLEARLY be put in spoiler tags!!


  And you caught me before I could correct it. Will have to work on my ninja-editing skills.


----------



## tanstaafl

My speculation is that Naomi is with Dharma. They have finally found their way back to the Island, are pissed about that whole Purge thing and are planning on making sure that it never happens again by killing off anyone on the Island who isn't one of them.

They let some of the Losties go, as long as they agree to never speak of what really happened. Thus Jack's "I'm tired of lying" line.


----------



## brianp6621

unixadm said:


> I think we did see him die:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He locked himself in the communications room, let it flood and took his last breath. There is no way that Desmond can rescue him in time to get him oxygen.
> 
> We have never seen him more obviously dead before....hanging from a tree isn't obviously dead....any of the other Desmond "flashes" showing Charlie die were glimpses of the future and we see him alive and well in the same episode. This was showing him die, plain and simple....and no one has died on the island and come back to life.


Ugh.. I really wanted to stay out of this. I even deleted a reply to a previous post however this is just too much.

There is nothing more obvious about Charlie being dead than Locke being dead from the gunshot.

Charlie obviously WASN'T dead from the last second we saw him on screen. He had just let out his last breath of air. It would take a minute or two for him to actually die. And we didn't see that. Everything past that is presumption (even if it was intended for us to presume that)

I DO agree that he is almost 100% dead and likely to not come back and I hope they leave it as such, but there is nothing in the episode that confirms he was/is dead.

What made Locke's near death a cliffhanger between episodes and Charlie's NOT a potential cliff hanger? The unlikely-hood that Charlie would be saved? Were talking about an island with a smoke monster and some weird paranormal character.


----------



## jkeegan

brianp6621 said:


> The unlikely-hood that Charlie would be saved?


When I first read this, for about a tenth of a second, my brain pictured Charlie in his hooded sweatshirt, and that you were saying it was unlikely that his hood would save him, or something.


----------



## brianp6621

jkeegan said:


> When I first read this, for about a tenth of a second, my brain pictured Charlie in his hooded sweatshirt, and that you were saying it was unlikely that his hood would save him, or something.


Ok ok, unlikelihood.


----------



## DUDE_NJX

Charlie is as much alive as the diamond thieves are (forget the names).
Also, Sun slept with Asian Kojak but they didn't have sex....  

By the way, what's with the uprising of spoiler nazis all of a sudden? Shouldn't they be busy writing letters to newspapers and radio stations?  
As far as I'm concerned, THEY are the ones SPOILING the fun here. Rules are rules - fine, but why stretch and bend them to your personal comfort levels?


----------



## mqpickles

brianp6621 said:


> What made Locke's near death a cliffhanger between episodes and Charlie's NOT a potential cliff hanger? The unlikely-hood that Charlie would be saved? Were talking about an island with a smoke monster and some weird paranormal character.


A big part of what makes it different is the set-up from previous episodes, particularly the immediately preceding episode. Desmond had kept seeing him die, kept saving him, and kept foreseeing another death. Des finally came to terms with the fact that he couldn't save Charlie, when this time Charlie's death was going to serve a noble (so they believed) purpose. Charlie accepted it too. Surrendered to it. He accomplished his purpose.

It was the next best thing to a drunk driving arrest for telling us that Charlie was going to be dying.

OTOH, if the cut off Locke right there in that pit, that would have been some lousy storytelling. His journey is not complete; his purpose is not fulfilled.


----------



## tewcewl

A bunch of us have been trying to bury this spoiler war and end it, but I guess Locke was right...

"Things on this island don't stay buried."

Does this mean we're ALL on the island?


----------



## DUDE_NJX

you mean:



tewcewl said:


> A bunch of us have been trying to bury this spoiler war and end it, but I guess Locke was right...
> 
> "Things on this island don't stay buried."
> 
> Does this mean
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> we're ALL on the island?


----------



## Martin Tupper

DUDE_NJX said:


> you mean:


If you had bothered to read the rules, you would know that speculation does not require spoiler tags.


----------



## unicorngoddess

Whew. Okay. I left for vacation Thursday, got back Tuesday and it's taking me exactly this long to read through everything. So here are my thoughts.

1. Anything from any other source outside of the episode at discussion should be in spoiler tags.
2. I don't think the coffin was meant to look small.
3. Someone's Tivo recording really messed up because he/she missed the whole Walt thing...but Walt wasn't there that long so maybe it's just possible Walt was overlooked and the recording didn't get messed up at all.
4. Charlie is dead.
5. Writers have the power to do whatever they want so if they feel like opening next season with the smoke monster reaching in the water and pulling Charlie out, I won't hold it against them. I think it was left open enough to where if there's an outrage at Charlie's "death" they could bring him back if they wanted to.
6. Nikki and Paulo...I still don't see how they turned out to be really significant as to what went on this season.

That's about it...


----------



## DUDE_NJX

Martin Tupper said:


> If you had bothered to read the rules, you would know that speculation does not require spoiler tags.


lol :up:


----------



## jkeegan

Ya know, something just hit me earlier..

_Locke's dad was on the island_

I don't know if we've really spent enough time on this one.. I mean, it was one thing when Jack saw a vision of his dad far away, etc.

..but this was someone that Locke talked to.. That Sawyer punched and killed.. And that Locke carried (both while alive and dead).

.......and he _described_ what he'd been through! Sure, one has to wonder how much you can trust the guy, but he said he was driving along in Tallahassee and then someone ran him into the divider, and ambulance came, and boom - he's here.

So unlike the 'visions' (Jack's dad? Walt? Horsey? Yemmi?), this guy seems to have been deliberately abducted.

Why would they bring him there? Just for Locke's benefit? Just so he can get closure? Why? Why would Jacob/hostiles/Dharma-leftovers/ANYONE care if Locke had closure with his dad or not (except maybe Locke and possibly Helen?).

..and speaking of Locke, next season, if we're still on the island, are we going to see Locke go back to the 'hostiles' and say "by the way, that Ben guy is crazy, and he shot me, but I got up - I'm special! (and, I can hear Jacob - and I don't think Ben can)".

The guy on the other end of the radio sure sounded friendly. What do we have to believe they're actually bad (the boat people), other than Ben's claim and the discrepancy between Naomi's story and Penny's?

Naomi's claims don't sync up with various people's; she claims to have heard that 815 was found underwater intact with all survivors accounted for and dead, and that she's with Penny (I think?), and that Driveshaft was made popular by the crash.. Maybe she (and the boat?) are from an alternate timeline/reality? Maybe she's not lying?

And what's with Hurley having heard the numbers, at all, ever? He heard them from the guy in the psych ward that heard them from a friend in Australia that had been on a listening outpost.. When did he ever hear the numbers broadcast? Why was he able to? Was the Looking Glass station going unused (not blocking anything) for 16 years? Danielle mistakenly is under the impression that no one ever heard that broadcast.. At least one person did - the guy in that listening station.

Wow, this post survived a firefox crash and restore-session.. I'm impressed. Posting now.


----------



## catcard

unicorngoddess said:


> Whew. Okay. I left for vacation Thursday, got back Tuesday and it's taking me exactly this long to read through everything. So here are my thoughts.
> 
> 1. Anything from any other source outside of the episode at discussion should be in spoiler tags.
> 2. I don't think the coffin was meant to look small.
> 3. Someone's Tivo recording really messed up because he/she missed the whole Walt thing...but Walt wasn't there that long so maybe it's just possible Walt was overlooked and the recording didn't get messed up at all.
> 4. Charlie is dead.
> 5. Writers have the power to do whatever they want so if they feel like opening next season with the smoke monster reaching in the water and pulling Charlie out, I won't hold it against them. I think it was left open enough to where if there's an outrage at Charlie's "death" they could bring him back if they wanted to.6. Nikki and Paulo...I still don't see how they turned out to be really significant as to what went on this season.
> 
> That's about it...


I like the way you think!


----------



## jeff125va

jkeegan said:


> Ya know, something just hit me earlier..
> 
> _Locke's dad was on the island_
> 
> I don't know if we've really spent enough time on this one.. I mean, it was one thing when Jack saw a vision of his dad far away, etc.
> 
> ..but this was someone that Locke talked to.. That Sawyer punched and killed.. And that Locke carried (both while alive and dead).
> 
> .......and he _described_ what he'd been through! Sure, one has to wonder how much you can trust the guy, but he said he was driving along in Tallahassee and then someone ran him into the divider, and ambulance came, and boom - he's here.
> 
> So unlike the 'visions' (Jack's dad? Walt? Horsey? Yemmi?), this guy seems to have been deliberately abducted.
> 
> Why would they bring him there? Just for Locke's benefit? Just so he can get closure? Why? Why would Jacob/hostiles/Dharma-leftovers/ANYONE care if Locke had closure with his dad or not (except maybe Locke and possibly Helen?).
> 
> ..and speaking of Locke, next season, if we're still on the island, are we going to see Locke go back to the 'hostiles' and say "by the way, that Ben guy is crazy, and he shot me, but I got up - I'm special! (and, I can hear Jacob - and I don't think Ben can)".
> 
> The guy on the other end of the radio sure sounded friendly. What do we have to believe they're actually bad (the boat people), other than Ben's claim and the discrepancy between Naomi's story and Penny's?
> 
> Naomi's claims don't sync up with various people's; she claims to have heard that 815 was found underwater intact with all survivors accounted for and dead, and that she's with Penny (I think?), and that Driveshaft was made popular by the crash.. Maybe she (and the boat?) are from an alternate timeline/reality? Maybe she's not lying?
> 
> And what's with Hurley having heard the numbers, at all, ever? He heard them from the guy in the psych ward that heard them from a friend in Australia that had been on a listening outpost.. When did he ever hear the numbers broadcast? Why was he able to? Was the Looking Glass station going unused (not blocking anything) for 16 years? Danielle mistakenly is under the impression that no one ever heard that broadcast.. At least one person did - the guy in that listening station.
> 
> Wow, this post survived a firefox crash and restore-session.. I'm impressed. Posting now.


Other than the observable fact that Ben apparently wanted to put Locke to the test, it's hard to say. It's sorta hard to get into the minds of people who do the sort of sociopathic things that they do, abducting and killing people and all that, especially when there's a lot we don't know about them.

I really don't put much stock in alternate reality explanations - that could explain just about anything without requiring much thought. I don't rule out the possibility that Naomi and the people on the ship she came from aren't hostile, but I don't see how she wasn't lying. Penny clearly had never heard of her, and she claimed to have been sent there by her with that picture. I just think there's a lot we don't know at this point that will explain it. It makes me think of how long we went between the last scene of last year's finale (which I remember thinking was a commercial and only watched because it was still in HD and very few commercials were in HD at that time, so I was curious) and the next time they returned to that plotline a few episodes ago. So who knows when we'll find out more.

With whom does her story about Flight 815 conflict? Or do you just mean it's obviously not true (although it may have been to the best of her knowledge).

I don't recall well enough - was it definitely Rousseau's recording that the listening outpost guy heard? Or another transmission from the island? (It's been a while).


----------



## unixadm

jeff125va said:


> The whole plot? No. But I do think we'll see mostly, if not all, flash forwards now. I think most of the questions about the past have been answered now, and I think they raised a bunch of questions with just the one flash forward we've seen. I think they'll answer those as well as the general "what happens to everyone?" question. My guess is the sequence will sort of bounce around chronologically as it did with the flashbacks for each character.
> 
> As for overall plot theories, I don't think this episode dealt with anything as significant as some of the other recent ones, e.g. with Ben killing off the original Dharmaites and the one with Jacob.


I disagree...there are still some back stories that we need to see more of.....and if they gave all flash forwards then I think they will be giving away too much as far as the ending or the following seasons. If only a few made it off the island then it would be too easy to guess who didn't since they wouldn't have any flash forwards.

My guess is that they will mix it up a bit....maybe 3 epsidodes in a month with flash backs and maybe 1 with flash forwards. My guess is that they will get off the island and we will see the scene with Jack and Kate sometime in Season 5 (Spring 2009). It won't be a flash forward, but real time.....and the next season and a half will be them going back to the island to make right what once went wrong (Where is Sam Beckett when you need him? )  . They will then be showing flashbacks of what really went wrong on the island.


----------



## unixadm

jkeegan said:


> Ya know, something just hit me earlier..
> 
> _Locke's dad was on the island_
> 
> .....
> 
> Why would they bring him there? Just for Locke's benefit? Just so he can get closure? Why? Why would Jacob/hostiles/Dharma-leftovers/ANYONE care if Locke had closure with his dad or not (except maybe Locke and possibly Helen?).
> 
> .


I think that Ben has become such a crazed and manipulative person that yes, he would go through ridiculous lengths to manipulate Locke. They still had the sub at the time (and may still have it now), so he could easily have gone and kidnapped Locke's Dad and had him waiting there knowing that Locke would search them out. I think he knows that Locke is special to the island and wanted him on his side, and wanted him to experience killing someone (which he didn't in the end) so it would be easier to do later.



unicorngoddess said:


> 6. Nikki and Paulo...I still don't see how they turned out to be really significant as to what went on this season.


My guess is that they introduced the characters trying to put some new faces (and new sex symbols) in the show. They then read all of the fan sites and found that the characters were not well received.

They didn't know when the end of the series was at that point, yet they knew approx how many episdodes it would take.....so they decided to put the Nikki/Paulo death episode in as a filler episode.


----------



## balboa dave

unixadm said:


> I disagree...there are still some back stories that we need to see more of.....and if they gave all flash forwards then I think they will be giving away too much as far as the ending or the following seasons. If only a few made it off the island then it would be too easy to guess who didn't since they wouldn't have any flash forwards.
> 
> My guess is that they will mix it up a bit....maybe 3 epsidodes in a month with flash backs and maybe 1 with flash forwards. My guess is that they will get off the island and we will see the scene with Jack and Kate sometime in Season 5 (Spring 2009). It won't be a flash forward, but real time.....and the next season and a half will be them going back to the island to make right what once went wrong (Where is Sam Beckett when you need him? )  . They will then be showing flashbacks of what really went wrong on the island.


I think they're going to mix it up with flash forwards and flash backs within any given episode, and leave it to the viewers to guess which is which. It's just what they need, another way to mess with our heads.


----------



## stellie93

unixadm said:


> They still had the sub at the time (and may still have it now)


We can't even agree if the sub blew up, so how could we agree if someone is dead or not? 

In normal life, when something in your past is messed up, you just go on and accept it and time moves you along. But if you knew that it would be possible to go back in time and change your screw-up... I think this is why Jack wants to go back and why he can't get over whatever went wrong. He knows if he could just get back there, he could fix it.

About Naomi--when Ben says she represents bad people, you shrug. It's Ben. He lies. But then when a totally different source comes along and says the same thing, it's pretty hard to say she's innocent. Of course, she may just be the messenger, but the guys on the ship are bad guys. Bank on it. :up:


----------



## mqpickles

jeff125va said:


> Other than the observable fact that Ben apparently wanted to put Locke to the test, it's hard to say. It's sorta hard to get into the minds of people who do the sort of sociopathic things that they do, abducting and killing people and all that, especially when there's a lot we don't know about them.
> 
> I really don't put much stock in alternate reality explanations - that could explain just about anything without requiring much thought. I don't rule out the possibility that Naomi and the people on the ship she came from aren't hostile, but I don't see how she wasn't lying. Penny clearly had never heard of her, and she claimed to have been sent there by her with that picture.  I just think there's a lot we don't know at this point that will explain it. It makes me think of how long we went between the last scene of last year's finale (which I remember thinking was a commercial and only watched because it was still in HD and very few commercials were in HD at that time, so I was curious) and the next time they returned to that plotline a few episodes ago. So who knows when we'll find out more.
> 
> With whom does her story about Flight 815 conflict? Or do you just mean it's obviously not true (although it may have been to the best of her knowledge).
> 
> I don't recall well enough - was it definitely Rousseau's recording that the listening outpost guy heard? Or another transmission from the island? (It's been a while).


I think it's entirely possible that Naomi believes her crew was hired by Penelope Widmore, but it was really someone else (Pen's father being a likely suspect).


----------



## catcard

I think Jack feels guilty because he has discovered that everyone who was able to leave the island is now dying because they had illnesses that were being cured while on the island. As long as they stayed on the island, they were ok - like Rose, Locke. When Jack says he needs to go back, he means he wants to take everyone back who is still alive. The island was keeping them alive but they did not realize it. I think the funeral in the flash foward was not the first one of the returned Losties Jack has experienced so that is why he is all torn up. He wanted to commit suicide since he knows he has some illness that will eventually kill him too. So that is my crazy theory....


----------



## jkeegan

I was just about to say "ooh.. maybe it's Rose", but it's a guy in the coffin, according to the text (we think).

If Bernie died, maybe she had noone, and exactly what you said happened.. she died because they were off the island..

Eh, I dunno.. Jack saw lots of people die.. he's a doctor.. I still don't think that'd make him that unhappy.

It's gotta be more Jack-centric.. HE doesn't have a purpose (as others have said), or HE doesn't get to be immortal anymore.. or HE feels empty now.. He left the garden of eden and wants back in.

Yup, gonna settle on it being someone else (the name in the paper), and that we'll someday learn why that would be such a horrible thing for them to be off the island that they'd kill themselves.


----------



## unixadm

I was thinking about it....I really can't imagine it being someone they haven't shown us yet...if it was, then as soon as that character is shown and we hear the name and their background, we will know that they die.....kind of defeats the purpose of the character at that point.

My guess is that it is either Michael (but then why didn't Walt go to the funeral), Locke, Ben or Jacob.

The name in the paper could be a fake name that anyone took when they left the island...or it could be Jacob's real name (wasn't the name in the paper J.....Lantham?...Could be Jacob) 

Kate did not want to go to the funeral.....if it was Rose or Bernard, then she would go...if it was any of the original Losties, she would go....with the exception of Michael who sold them all down the river to save his son or Locke who sold them down the river to stay on the island. So I say it was either Michael, Locke, or one of the others such as Ben or Jacob.


----------



## aindik

unixadm said:
 

> My guess is that it is either Michael (but then why didn't Walt go to the funeral), Locke, Ben or Jacob.


Walt isn't at the funeral because he's on the island.


----------



## Mike20878

wprager said:


> So, assuming that full text of the newspaper obit was correct,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> who the heck is John Lantham
> 
> 
> ? The first name clearly leads you to think of one particular person, but as far as we know that particular character did not have
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> a teen-aged son
> 
> 
> . As much as I hate to admit it, it's beginning to sound more and more like
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> the person in the casket is a character we have not yet met.
> 
> 
> 
> And that will make a lot of people upset.


Now that I read that, I think


Spoiler



John Lantham could be Michael's assumed name after he left the island. He does have a teenaged son and the funeral parlor is in a low income area of LA.


----------



## DevdogAZ

I'm amazed at how many people in this thread (and in the Who's in the Casket Poll thread) seem to think that it might be Michael because the funeral parlor is in a ghetto. Isn't that blatant racism, to automatically assume that because the funeral home is in a lower-income area, that the deceased must be black?


----------



## jeff125va

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm amazed at how many people in this thread (and in the Who's in the Casket Poll thread) seem to think that it might be Michael because the funeral parlor is in a ghetto. Isn't that blatant racism, to automatically assume that because the funeral home is in a lower-income area, that the deceased must be black?


One could make that argument if it were merely an assumption based on race. But we know that Michael is low-income because of the flashbacks in previous episodes. If the funeral parlor is in a ghetto, it would be reasonable to suspect or conclude that a character we know to be of limited financial means is the one whose funeral is there, regardless of skin color. Not to mention that he's certainly a character whose funeral no one else would go to.


----------



## jeff125va

mqpickles said:


> I think it's entirely possible that Naomi believes her crew was hired by Penelope Widmore, but it was really someone else (Pen's father being a likely suspect).


That's reasonable. I don't recall specifically whether her statements would contradict that - e.g. whether she said specifically that she met Penny first-hand or something to that effect. But yeah, that makes sense.


----------



## jeff125va

unixadm said:


> I was thinking about it....I really can't imagine it being someone they haven't shown us yet...if it was, then as soon as that character is shown and we hear the name and their background, we will know that they die.....kind of defeats the purpose of the character at that point.


Not necessarily. If, as someone speculated, the flash forward we saw in this episode ends up being the chronological end of the series, then it certainly doesn't defeat the purpose of the character simply knowing they're going to die at the very end. Even if that doesn't end up being the chronological end, a lot can happen in between. Besides, whether it's someone we haven't met, or an alias for someone we have, we're going to recognize the name immediately when we hear it, and know that person's going to die.


----------



## wprager

jeff125va said:


> I don't recall well enough - was it definitely Rousseau's recording that the listening outpost guy heard? Or another transmission from the island? (It's been a while).


No, the outpost guys (Sam and Leonard) heard the original transmission. Rousseau had replaced that transmission with her own recording. Or at least that's how I remember it.

So, yes, someone *could have* heard Rousseau's transmission, but it probably wasn't the two guys in the listening post.


----------



## mqpickles

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm amazed at how many people in this thread (and in the Who's in the Casket Poll thread) seem to think that it might be Michael because the funeral parlor is in a ghetto. Isn't that blatant racism, to automatically assume that because the funeral home is in a lower-income area, that the deceased must be black?


I don't think it's necessarily _blatant _racism, but I agree that it's an element of why people are suddenly thinking of a character who hasn't even been on the show for a year (although his son was in this episode). Maybe it's not so much because of the neighborhood per se, but because the funeral director was black.

Anyway, it's not impossible that it's Michael, but I think it's a lot less likely than the posting would suggest.


----------



## Delta13

unixadm said:


> I was thinking about it....I really can't imagine it being someone they haven't shown us yet...if it was, then as soon as that character is shown and we hear the name and their background, we will know that they die.....kind of defeats the purpose of the character at that point.


That assumes that the flash forward we saw winds up coming true. I still think they are pulling a Desmond on us all, showing us things that _could_ happen - if everything else from the "rescue" onwards happens the same way again. Just like his flashes.

But will anything change? There's lots of wiggle room and artistic license available to the guys who coined "Mittlelos".


----------



## Delta13

jeff125va said:


> One could make that argument if it were merely an assumption based on race. But we know that Michael is low-income because of the flashbacks in previous episodes. If the funeral parlor is in a ghetto, it would be reasonable to suspect or conclude that a character we know to be of limited financial means is the one whose funeral is there, regardless of skin color. Not to mention that he's certainly a character whose funeral no one else would go to.


Personally, I thought more people were including Michael in with the likes of Locke and Ben because they were all disliked and so no one might attend their funeral. That they would all be poor most likely weighed into it, too. I think it's more human nature than pure racism.

But while thinking about this, I realized we missed something. The director said there was no funeral, just a viewing. The funeral then will be somewhere else, not LA (New York, maybe?). I wonder why they went through the trouble of saying there was no funeral, but then again I can't figure out what possible significance it may have. Maybe nothing at all.


----------



## MacThor

jeff125va said:


> Not necessarily. If, as someone speculated, the flash forward we saw in this episode ends up being the chronological end of the series, then it certainly doesn't defeat the purpose of the character simply knowing they're going to die at the very end. Even if that doesn't end up being the chronological end, a lot can happen in between. Besides, whether it's someone we haven't met, or an alias for someone we have, we're going to recognize the name immediately when we hear it, and know that person's going to die.


Exactly. If you extend unixadm's argument, knowing that Jack & Kate make it off the island defeats the purpose of _their_ characters.


----------



## jeff125va

Delta13 said:


> Personally, I thought more people were including Michael in with the likes of Locke and Ben because they were all disliked and so no one might attend their funeral. That they would all be poor most likely weighed into it, too. I think it's more human nature than pure racism.
> 
> But while thinking about this, I realized we missed something. The director said there was no funeral, just a viewing. The funeral then will be somewhere else, not LA (New York, maybe?). I wonder why they went through the trouble of saying there was no funeral, but then again I can't figure out what possible significance it may have. Maybe nothing at all.


Well, it simply could have been that no one showed up. I mean, what's the guy gonna do, stand there and talk to an empty room? When Kate and Jack were talking, I believe one or both of them referred to it as "the funeral." Actually, it sort of makes no sense that absolutely no one showed up - I mean, who arranged it? Wouldn't at least that person have shown up?


----------



## jeff125va

unixadm said:


> I disagree...there are still some back stories that we need to see more of.....and if they gave all flash forwards then I think they will be giving away too much as far as the ending or the following seasons. If only a few made it off the island then it would be too easy to guess who didn't since they wouldn't have any flash forwards.
> 
> My guess is that they will mix it up a bit....maybe 3 epsidodes in a month with flash backs and maybe 1 with flash forwards. My guess is that they will get off the island and we will see the scene with Jack and Kate sometime in Season 5 (Spring 2009). It won't be a flash forward, but real time.....and the next season and a half will be them going back to the island to make right what once went wrong (Where is Sam Beckett when you need him? )  . They will then be showing flashbacks of what really went wrong on the island.


Yeah, I could see them mixing it up, but what back stories are you thinking of? The last big ones in my mind were answered recently - what happened to Locke's legs, what happened to the original Dharmaites. Not disagreeing with you, just can't think of any big unanswered questions like that. Of course, if they introduce any new characters, there'd be back stories for them. And yeah, if certain people don't make it, they'd give that away by their absence in post-island flash forwards.


----------



## danterner

Personally, I think it will wind up being a yet-to-be introduced character named Jeremy Bentham, as *bananfish* posited earlier in the thread. However, another thought just occurred to me and I haven't seen it mentioned here yet:

What if it ties in to Jack's relationship with his ex-wife, Sarah, who was shown to be pregnant in the finale? We already know that the island has something to do with death/childbirth. Maybe he's desperate to get back to the island because he's for some reason determined that doing so is necessary in order to save Sarah or her child? I know it can't be Sarah or her child in the coffin, because Sarah was shown living and still pregnant after Jack's near-suicide attempt, which occurred after he read the obituary, but maybe it ties in somehow. Then again, did Jack even know she was pregnant before she showed up at the hospital for him? I'm just grasping, here.


----------



## lew

I like the theory/speculation about Michael being responsible for bringing the freighter. Plus Michael knows about Desmond so they could have researched the Penny connection.

How about Kate was (or was thought to be) pregnant. They let Kate, Jack and maybe Sawyer leave. Considering Sawyer's death count getting him off the island makes sense.


----------



## Hunter Green

bdlucas said:


> It's another instance of using the name of a famous thinker whose work is related somehow to a theme of the show. In this case Minkowski's work in relativity relates to the malleability of space and time, which is a theme of the show.


Oh, yeah. Another thinker. Exciting. ::yawn::


----------



## wmcbrine

jeff125va said:


> Yeah, I could see them mixing it up, but what back stories are you thinking of? The last big ones in my mind were answered recently


You're kidding, right?

How about, WHAT ARE THE OTHERS DOING ON THE ISLAND?


----------



## jeff125va

wmcbrine said:


> You're kidding, right?
> 
> How about, WHAT ARE THE OTHERS DOING ON THE ISLAND?


Oh, those guys.

Have we ever seen a flashback with Rousseau? Maybe we'll actually _see_ the story she's told about her people arriving and dying and Alex being stolen. Heck, maybe we'll see the crash of the Black Rock.


----------



## Delta13

jeff125va said:


> Well, it simply could have been that no one showed up. I mean, what's the guy gonna do, stand there and talk to an empty room? When Kate and Jack were talking, I believe one or both of them referred to it as "the funeral." Actually, it sort of makes no sense that absolutely no one showed up - I mean, who arranged it? Wouldn't at least that person have shown up?


I agree, you'd think somebody would show. After all, it got a mention in the paper and not in the obits either. And obits have to be written and approved to be put in the paper by someone. Usually, the dead person doesn't make all of the final arrangements. 

When my dad died a few years ago, we had a service in Tennessee but the funeral was later in California. So, "no funeral, just a viewing" finally struck me on a second viewing. (The minutia we put ourselves through with this show ...)


----------



## jeff125va

Delta13 said:


> I agree, you'd think somebody would show. After all, it got a mention in the paper and not in the obits either. And obits have to be written and approved to be put in the paper by someone. Usually, the dead person doesn't make all of the final arrangements.
> 
> When my dad died a few years ago, we had a service in Tennessee but the funeral was later in California. So, "no funeral, just a viewing" finally struck me on a second viewing. (The minutia we put ourselves through with this show ...)


I guess someone from out of town could have arranged it and scheduled the viewing in CA for his local friends before having the body transported for the funeral and burial back to wherever that person was.


----------



## Fraser+Dief

Delta13 said:


> Usually, the dead person doesn't make all of the final arrangements.


But he could if he commits suicide. Mail off a press release to the papers, arrange and pay for a burial beforehand, etc.


----------



## mark1278

I was wondering if we ever really found out what the "illness" was/is on the island. Did we ever find out why Desmond was injecting himself with medicine in the hatch?


----------



## jeff125va

mark1278 said:


> I was wondering if we ever really found out what the "illness" was/is on the island. Did we ever find out why Desmond was injecting himself with medicine in the hatch?


Not sure. We also saw the new Dharma arrivals getting injections in the flashback with Ben and his dad. And we also know that there was at least some degree of fakery with the quarantine with Kelvin wearing the suit when he left Desmond back in the hatch, but taking it off outside.


----------



## unicorngoddess

mark1278 said:


> I was wondering if we ever really found out what the "illness" was/is on the island. Did we ever find out why Desmond was injecting himself with medicine in the hatch?


Now that you bring it up, I can't remember if this was from LOST or something else, but wasn't there some message about the cure being worse than the disease???


----------



## jlb

jkeegan said:


> ......
> And what's with Hurley having heard the numbers, at all, ever? He heard them from the guy in the psych ward that heard them from a friend in Australia that had been on a listening outpost.. When did he ever hear the numbers broadcast? Why was he able to? .................


What if everyone on the island, for whatever reason, is travelling through time. But the only one who notices is Desmond, because he was right there when he turned the key on the failsafe?

If Hurley were travelling in time, maybe the scene where Hurley is in the psych ward with Libby was actually a flash forward........and when he was back in time he "subconsciously" thought of the numbers and played them.

Who knows. Just traipsing back into the thread....Can't wait for the next season to start....


----------



## jeff125va

jlb said:


> What if everyone on the island, for whatever reason, is travelling through time. But the only one who notices is Desmond, because he was right there when he turned the key on the failsafe?
> 
> If Hurley were travelling in time, maybe the scene where Hurley is in the psych ward with Libby was actually a flash forward........and when he was back in time he "subconsciously" thought of the numbers and played them.
> 
> Who knows. Just traipsing back into the thread....Can't wait for the next season to start....


As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, the characters on this show don't come back to life once they're dead. Even so, given that they made it clear during the episode that this one was a flash forward, I can't imagine them going back and saying, "Oh yeah, some of these other scenes were really flashforwards, too."

They (and we) are all travelling through time, just at the same speed.


----------



## mqpickles

jeff125va said:


> As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, the characters on this show don't come back to life once they're dead. Even so, given that they made it clear during the episode that this one was a flash forward, I can't imagine them going back and saying, "Oh yeah, some of these other scenes were really flashforwards, too."
> 
> They (and we) are all travelling through time, just at the same speed.


If we're all traveling at the same speed, then how is that I wasn't even pregnant when Lost started, while Claire was 8 months pregnant, and now I have a 2-year-old, and she has a 2-month old?

Walt, however, is traveling at the same speed as the rest of us.


----------



## jeff125va

mqpickles said:


> If we're all traveling at the same speed, then how is that I wasn't even pregnant when Lost started, while Claire was 8 months pregnant, and now I have a 2-year-old, and she has a 2-month old?
> 
> Walt, however, is traveling at the same speed as the rest of us.


Ha ha, you got me there 

Wait, are you asking me how you came to have a child when you weren't pregnant before? If you don't know how that happened...


----------



## hefe

jeff125va said:


> They (and we) are all travelling through time, just at the same speed.


I'm not sure Einstein would agree...


----------



## jeff125va

hefe said:


> I'm not sure Einstein would agree...


You mean the dog in _Back to the Future_? True, probably not.


----------



## unicorngoddess

jeff125va said:


> Ha ha, you got me there
> 
> Wait, are you asking me how you came to have a child when you weren't pregnant before? If you don't know how that happened...


Hey now, don't go drawing conclusions. Maybe she was just laying in bed naked with some guy.


----------



## jkeegan

You're obviously talking about the bald person Sun was with.. but do we _know_ it was a guy? I mean, sure, they may have even called him a man, but maybe it was a robot and noone knew! "This is Lost, afterall!".

cough


----------



## jlb

BTW, anyone else think the tower was powered with a flux capacitor?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

jlb said:


> BTW, anyone else think the tower was powered with a flux capacitor?


No, because they didn't reverse the polarity.


----------



## jeff125va

jkeegan said:


> You're obviously talking about the bald person Sun was with.. but do we _know_ it was a guy? I mean, sure, they may have even called him a man, but maybe it was a robot and noone knew! "This is Lost, afterall!".
> 
> cough


Or maybe they weren't there at the same time, but the scene we saw was a composite of both of them there in separate timelines.

Or perhaps, he doesn't even exist, like Hurley's friend Dave. Maybe, we'll gradually find out that a lot of the characters don't really exist. Kate could be a figment of Jack and Sawyer's imaginations, for example.

Now as far as that guy being a robot, I think you're just being silly.


----------



## gchance

Oh my God, I just figured it out.

The guy in the coffin is the smoke monster!

Greg


----------



## jlb

No it's not.....it's Urkel!


----------



## drew2k

Is this what we have to look forward to until January? 

PostCount -135 until 1000.


----------



## 420s

I think that once the people got off the island, they started dying one by one. (kinda like Hurley's cursed numbers ie. his family getting hurt). As if death was following them. Ben knew this would happen, that's why he never would let the people leave. That's also why the laides were in the looking glass station. Ben made it seem like they had left so that the others would belive that they could leave too (same with having a sub there). Jack has been seeing the obituaries for everyone and that is why he was freaking out trying to kill himself. He knew his time was coming up and he wanted to die on his terms. I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that he had tried to kill himself multiple times since returning from the island and having something happen to stop him everytime. This is why he needs to go backto the island and change things. 

just my 2% of a dollar


----------



## jeff125va

420s said:


> I think that once the people got off the island, they started dying one by one. (kinda like Hurley's cursed numbers ie. his family getting hurt). As if death was following them. Ben knew this would happen, that's why he never would let the people leave. That's also why the laides were in the looking glass station. Ben made it seem like they had left so that the others would belive that they could leave too (same with having a sub there). Jack has been seeing the obituaries for everyone and that is why he was freaking out trying to kill himself. He knew his time was coming up and he wanted to die on his terms. I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that he had tried to kill himself multiple times since returning from the island and having something happen to stop him everytime. This is why he needs to go backto the island and change things.
> 
> just my 2% of a dollar


Well we know that Richard left and came back, so it certainly wouldn't have been a 100% certainty. Of course, there seems to be a mystery surrounding Richard's aging process, so he could be an exception.


----------



## stellie93

Maybe only the original "hostiles" can safely leave the island. Are Richard and Ethan the only island people we've seen in the real world? I like 420's ideas, but Kate doesn't seem too worried about it.


----------



## cyke93

just saw the finale. . talk about a good episode !!!!


----------



## tewcewl

cyke93 said:


> just saw the finale. . talk about a good episode !!!!


We have been.


----------



## philw1776

mqpickles said:


> how is that I wasn't even pregnant when Lost started, while Claire was 8 months pregnant, and now I have a 2-year-old,


Who did it? Charlie, Sawyer or Jin?


----------



## ironchef

jlb said:


> What if everyone on the island, for whatever reason, is travelling through time. But the only one who notices is Desmond, because he was right there when he turned the key on the failsafe?


Schlacthof Funf...


----------



## kimsan

ironchef said:


> Schlacthof Funf...


Po tee weet?


----------



## catcard

Interesting.... are we going to keep this thread alive until the new season starts?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

WAYT got Lost!


----------



## jkeegan

I heard that..

well, better spoilerize..



Spoiler



I read that Jm J Bullock was scheduled to be a new major cast member, starting early in season four. No word yet as to whether he'll be on the island or mainly reside in "off-island" scenes. The producers were apparently very excited to get him.


----------



## mqpickles

jkeegan said:


> I heard that..
> 
> well, better spoilerize..
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I read that Jm J Bullock was scheduled to be a new major cast member, starting early in season four. No word yet as to whether he'll be on the island or mainly reside in "off-island" scenes. The producers were apparently very excited to get him.





Spoiler



If they cast Ted Knight, that would answer some questions, and in true Lost fashion, would raise even more!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

jkeegan said:


> I heard that..
> 
> well, better spoilerize..
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I read that Jm J Bullock was scheduled to be a new major cast member, starting early in season four. No word yet as to whether he'll be on the island or mainly reside in "off-island" scenes. The producers were apparently very excited to get him.


The rumor I heard is that this person is being kept on the set for the personal pleasure of certain of the producers, but will not actually be appearing on-screen...


----------



## jkeegan

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The rumor I heard is that this person is being kept on the set for the personal pleasure of certain of the producers, but will not actually be appearing on-screen...


That, would be a severe waste of talent.


----------



## jlb

catcard said:


> Interesting.... are we going to keep this thread alive until the new season starts?


Yes....in true "Let this thread die" fashion................

But would it really be dead, or purgatory?


----------



## jkeegan

Was the thread technically created before it started talking about the island, or after it was already talking about the island?

Does this thread even exist, or is there a smoke monster in your laptop typing up the words you want to see, from deep inside your subconscious desires?

The thread does have flashbacks.....


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

The thread keeps dying. The island keeps bringing it back to life.


----------



## Hunter Green

Nothing stays buried.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

maybe we find that the meeting of jack and desmond on the sports arena steps from way back at the start of the show is actually a flash forward as well and desmond actually travels back in time when he ends up on the island after being shipwrecked


----------



## jeff125va

According to an article I read, the actor who plays this thread says that the thread is dead.


----------



## jkeegan

jeff125va said:


> According to an article I read, the actor who plays this thread says that the thread is dead.


WHERE THE HELL ARE THE SPOILER TAGS FOR THAT?!!? AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!


----------



## jeff125va

jkeegan said:


> WHERE THE HELL ARE THE SPOILER TAGS FOR THAT?!!? AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!


Check the rules. No spoiler tags are required if I'm talking about the death of THIS thread. If it were another thread, then I'd have to spoilerize it.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

jeff125va said:


> Check the rules. No spoiler tags are required if I'm talking about the death of THIS thread. If it were another thread, then I'd have to spoilerize it.


Yeah, this thread already died in this thread, so any outside reference to this thread dying is fair game.


----------



## unicorngoddess

But where's the proof that it died in this thread??? It could very well come back next season...


----------



## jlb

jkeegan said:


> .........The thread does have flashbacks.....


So if we reverse the logic, on the show, on the Island, Desmond has smeeks!


----------



## ZeoTiVo

unicorngoddess said:


> But where's the proof that it died in this thread??? It could very well come back next season...


we saw it in a flash forward so technically it did not die yet and this post is just another clue to how the thread manages to keep healing itself


----------



## stalemate

jlb said:


> So if we reverse the logic, on the show, on the Island, Desmond has smeeks!


No, the island smeeks Desmond occasionally.


----------



## jeff125va

unicorngoddess said:


> But where's the proof that it died in this thread??? It could very well come back next season...


Right, and maybe those two threads were just lying naked in bed together.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

jeff125va said:


> Right, and maybe those two threads were just lying naked in bed together.


This thread looks kind of gaunt...


----------



## unicorngoddess

But if this thread has already died, which thread is it that will end up in the coffin???


----------



## jeff125va

unicorngoddess said:


> But if this thread has already died, which thread is it that will end up in the coffin???


That thread probably hasn't even been started yet.

I think this thread is actually just paralyzed temporarily, but it might get buried alive after it's too late.


----------



## ced6

Hmmmm...
I heard that the thread was reassigned to Canada.


----------



## rondotcom

ced6 said:


> Hmmmm...
> I heard that the thread was reassigned to Canada.


If you heard that from ouside sources it needs to be spoilerized!


----------



## jlb

I also heard that this thread was started by Nikki and Paulo!


----------



## unicorngoddess

Well, we know one thing for sure:

If this thread gets arrested for any traffic violations, it's all over.


----------



## Delta13

jkeegan said:


> Does this thread even exist, or *is there a smoke monster in your laptop* typing up the words you want to see, from deep inside your subconscious desires?
> 
> The thread does have flashbacks.....


Hmm, a euphemism I don't think I'm familiar with ...

"Is that a smoke monster in your laptop, or are you just happy to quote me?"

(boy, it's going to be a long 8 months ...)


----------



## JYoung

Oh, and Sun did not have sex with Jae.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

JYoung said:


> Oh, and Sun did not have sex with Jae.


Well, of COURSE not. He was MUCH too gaunt for her taste!


----------



## jkeegan

JYoung said:


> Oh, and Sun did not have sex with Jae.


Isn't it inappropriate to have sex in purgatory?


----------



## jeff125va

JYoung said:


> Oh, and Sun did not have sex with Jae.


I heard in an interview with the producers that we'll find out the truth when the unrated DVD release comes out.


----------



## tewcewl

Well, I guess Jin's being killed off! 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071026/ap_on_en_tv/lost_actor


----------



## Johncv

tewcewl said:


> Well, I guess Jin's being killed off!
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071026/ap_on_en_tv/lost_actor


The other two actors were showing up at the set drunk, that why they let go (killed off).


----------



## lonwolf615

well, there were three...and I've never heard that one before. Could be true, I guess.


----------

