# Dish DVR vs TIVO



## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

I had a TIVO and carried it back to Circuit City because the picture was so bad. I now have a DN 622 DVR and the picture is pefect. If the TIVO had a good pic I would have kept it. If DN stole your patent they sure improved on it. Once you improve on a idea then it is a new idea. You lose TIVO....I believe the courts will agree!


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

mrduffin said:


> Once you improve on a idea then it is a new idea.


Not according to patent law.



> You lose TIVO....I believe the courts will agree!


Um, I don't quite know how to tell you this, but the trial is over. TiVo won. Echostar has filed its intention to appeal, but their chance of getting the entire verdict overturned is extremely small.

As for picture quality, that is the result of directly recording a digital stream versus digitizing an analog stream. It is the same reason that DirecTiVos have better PQ than the standalone TiVos.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

mrduffin said:


> I had a TIVO and carried it back to Circuit City because the picture was so bad. I now have a DN 622 DVR and the picture is pefect. If the TIVO had a good pic I would have kept it. If DN stole your patent they sure improved on it. Once you improve on a idea then it is a new idea. You lose TIVO....I believe the courts will agree!


I see you've found a remarkable combination of ignorance and stupidity.

Hope it continues to serve you well.


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> I see you've found a remarkable combination of ignorance and stupidity.
> 
> Hope it continues to serve you well.


Thanks you for your obsevation. I did have enough sense to carry back an inferior product and buy a superior one. If you are still using your TIVO, you must have a 27" Samsung or poor eyesight. There are post all over this board about the bad picture you get using a TIVO so I am not the only one who has noticed.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

mrduffin said:


> Thanks you for your obsevation. I did have enough sense to carry back an inferior product and buy a superior one. If you are still using your TIVO, you must have a 27" Samsung or poor eyesight. There are post all over this board about the bad picture you get using a TIVO so I am not the only one who has noticed.


Are you referring to a SA TiVo or a Direct TV Tivo? Because your blanket statement makes no sense. Btw, you might want to look at the front of Tivo.com for information on how you can get a SA S3 that records cable and OTA broadcasts digitally. Btw, you should learn what the difference between a digital and analog stream is.


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

{quote}
Um, I don't quite know how to tell you this, but the trial is over. TiVo won. Echostar has filed its intention to appeal, but their chance of getting the entire verdict overturned is extremely small.

As for picture quality, that is the result of directly recording a digital stream versus digitizing an analog stream. It is the same reason that DirecTiVos have better PQ than the standalone TiVos.[/QUOTE]

I know the trial is over but I am still using my 622 so the fat lady has not sung yet. We'll see if my 622 is ever cutoff. I very seriously doubt it will be.


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## painkiller (Jun 23, 2005)

Hello, mrduffin.

Just so you know, not all of us have had the experience you have gone through.

In my case, I bought a second TIVO after experiencing my first over a year ago.

I have never had the 'bad picture' you describe.

But I do work in the electronics industry, all that can be said - yes, there are the occasional bad apples in the bunch.

But I know there are others, such as myself, that have not experienced that.

The idea here is - there should be few problem machines - not a lot of them.

Enjoy your new purchase.


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## timr_42 (Oct 14, 2001)

Well, at a lower quailty the picture is not great. I accept that, and if I was not lazy I would add a hard drive and get more space. Best is a little degraded, but I think is not bad. I usually use medium. Not that great, but for most things, I don't find it unwatchable.

Sorry you didn't like tivo, I know someone who has Dish DVR and hates it. Everyone has their opinion.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

mrduffin said:


> I know the trial is over but I am still using my 622 so the fat lady has not sung yet. We'll see if my 622 is ever cutoff. I very seriously doubt it will be.


One would hope that the folks at TiVo and Echostar could reach an agreement before that happened. But TiVo has taken a lot of abuse from Echostar, so they may prefer to play nice with their cable buddies and leave Echostar twisting in the wind.


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## dagap (Dec 5, 2003)

mrduffin said:


> I now have a DN 622 DVR and the picture is pefect.


You should add another hard drive so you have more room to record HD content.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mrduffin said:


> I know the trial is over but I am still using my 622 so the fat lady has not sung yet. We'll see if my 622 is ever cutoff. I very seriously doubt it will be.


ah an embittered DN fan trying to rile a TiVo forum. Would work better if you had any clue what you were talking about. Have fun with that


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ah an embittered DN fan trying to rile a TiVo forum. Would work better if you had any clue what you were talking about. Have fun with that


No sir.....not embittered at all. Just sad that I can't buy a better product without the competion crying foul. I tried the TIVO (two really) and they both had an unacceptable picture. The market should be consumer driven. If I did not have a DN DVR I would not have one so me having a DN DRV has not cut TIVO from any money. Mr ZeroTivo is the one that is trying to defend an inferior product. I have a nice home setup and so far a TIVO degrades my other components. This stuff needs to be said to help overturn the first trial on appeal.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

mrduffin said:


> This stuff needs to be said to help overturn the first trial on appeal.


I'm beginning to agree with jfh3 about you. What in any of the stuff you just said is even remotely grounds for appeal?

And, by the way, you've now changed your story -- that kind of thing never goes unnoticed around here.


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## old7 (Aug 7, 2002)

mrduffin said:


> No sir.....not embittered at all. Just sad that I can't buy a better product without the competion crying foul. I tried the TIVO (two really) and they both had an unacceptable picture. The market should be consumer driven. If I did not have a DN DVR I would not have one so me having a DN DRV has not cut TIVO from any money. Mr ZeroTivo is the one that is trying to defend an inferior product. I have a nice home setup and so far a TIVO degrades my other components. This stuff needs to be said to help overturn the first trial on appeal.


Well, maybe the company that made the better product (your opinion) shouldn't steal other company's technology. If they could follow that simple rule there wouldn't be a threat to turn off your DVR. Of course if they hadn't stolen the technology maybe you wouldn't have the opinion that the DN DVR is better.


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

I did not expect any sympathy....just what I got. You can go back to where you were with one less critic. Thanks for listening.....


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

Mr. Duffin

Sure the E* DVR might have a better picture, but you haven't come across as understanding why which causes people to see you as ignorant on the topic.

As rainwater eluded, the E* DVR is able to record the digital stream directly from the satellite. The TiVo is left to encode an analog signal from (at best) a svideo cable and even at best quality (which you have never mention what quality setting you were using) is going to be lower quality than the straight digital stream. If you had the chance to see a DirecTiVo and the upcoming S3 (for digital cable) you might see the potential PQ possible from TiVo. The problem is E* doesn't play well with others and doesn't share how to decode their stream with other companies.

So as far as PQ goes on E*, the Stand Alone TiVo is inferior but on all other fronts like remote scheduling, user interface, home media, etc, the TiVo is vastly superior.

Overall TiVo is a superior product on D* and soon on cable with the S3.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mrduffin said:


> Mr ZeroTivo is the one that is trying to defend an inferior product.


 Umm - I called you an embittered DN fan and accussed you of trying to rile a TiVo forum. No defense needed as you really said nothing worth debating in the first place. I still think you just wanted to rile things up more than actually debate anything


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

terryfoster said:


> Mr. Duffin
> 
> Sure the E* DVR might have a better picture, but you haven't come across as understanding why which causes people to see you as ignorant on the topic.
> 
> ...


That is all well and good but the bottom line is the picture on the screen. I don't need to tell you how good the PQ is. But you have spent alot of time telling me why the TIVO pic not good.


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Umm - I called you an embittered DN fan and accussed you of trying to rile a TiVo forum. No defense needed as you really said nothing worth debating in the first place. I still think you just wanted to rile things up more than actually debate anything


I figured you would give up! I was right....

Still not embittered......now uninterested. . Keep playing your game and I will keep moving on to new technology. Peace...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mrduffin said:


> I figured you would give up! I was right....


give up on what exactly  and you may just end up moving on to new technology as the suit against E* unfolds


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

And you were saying........I can't hear you!


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Say, when is the appeal scheduled to take place? I will be interested in hearing the outcome of that.


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

Looks like Echostar's request to stay the injunction got granted. 

Anyone have an idea as to how long it might be before the case is heard.

"TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO), the creator of and leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), today announced that U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit granted the request of EchoStar Communications Corp. ("ECC") to stay the permanent injunction imposed by the U.S. District Court to prevent ECC from making, using, offering for sale or selling in the United States the DVR products involved in the case (DP-501, DP-508, DP-510, DP-721, DP-921, DP-522, DP-625, DP-942, and all EchoStar DVRs that are not more than colorably different from any of these products) pending the outcome of ECC's appeal. 

TiVo sued EchoStar in Federal District Court on January 5, 2004, alleging that ECC and certain subsidiaries are violating a key TiVo patent (U.S. Patent No. 6,233,389 issued to TiVo in May 2001, known as the "Time Warp" patent). The Time Warp patent discloses systems and methods for the simultaneous storage and playback of programs, supporting advanced capabilities such as pausing live television, fast-forwarding, rewinding, instant replays, and slow motion. On April 13, 2006, a Marshall, Texas jury concluded that EchoStar had willfully infringed TiVo's Time Warp patent. 

"We are confident that the jury's decision in TiVo's favor will be upheld once the Federal Circuit has the opportunity to review the entire record in this case. It is important to note that most injunctions in patent cases are stayed pending appeal, and the appeal itself will be decided on a totally different standard of review," stated the company. "


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Since I'm an AT&T customer (I have my land line thru them, plus I have my DSL through) them, they often try to quote for me an unsolicited deal on Dish Network. But before I ever consider Dish Network, I'd be interested to know how this trial pans out.

I assume that if I switched to Dish, my stand alone TiVos (series 1 and series 2) would still work with them.


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

No idea here..........


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

mrduffin said:


> Looks like Echostar's request to stay the injunction got granted.


You know appeals have a small chance at winning? Actually about 10% or so do win. Usually what the lower court decides is final. Appeals court is a lot different then the first trial, esentially in these types of cases unless there was some major illegal procedure the outcome is final.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

timckelley said:


> Since I'm an AT&T customer (I have my land line thru them, plus I have my DSL through) them, they often try to quote for me an unsolicited deal on Dish Network. But before I ever consider Dish Network, I'd be interested to know how this trial pans out.
> 
> I assume that if I switched to Dish, my stand alone TiVos (series 1 and series 2) would still work with them.


I wouldn't worry about trial (unless you are TiVo or Dish shareholder). Worse case for Dish would be to make some kind of deal with TiVo. They are not going to lose 4 million+ subscribers who have Dish DVRs. Unlike TiVo, Dish is profitable company, so they can afford to pay-off if they have to. If you decide to switch to Dish your SA TiVo will be more or less useless. Yes, they will work with Dish IRDs, but picture quality on Dish DVRs is so much better than TiVo that you will drop your TiVos in a heartbeat. Add dual tuner/ dual output functionality on Dish DVRs to the plus column as well. If you are considering HDTV then Dish does have an extra 20 or so channels they inherited from Voom and they do have locals in most major markets. HD DVR from Dish is very good and cost under $300 (or less - depending on a new sub deal you are going to get). My only concern would be if for some reason Dish does not offer programming you want.


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## kjh (Oct 4, 2006)

timckelley said:


> I assume that if I switched to Dish, my stand alone TiVos (series 1 and series 2) would still work with them.


Tivo says so right here themselves: [go to their home page and click What is Tivo? followed by Does it work with your system?]

BTW, I realize that while we're all mostly Tivo owners, and probably don't care that much if Echostar/Dish gets the short end of the stick in this patent case, don't you worry about the continuing string of precedents being set here? Stupid things getting patented, and other companies needing to license in order to compete in the same technology area?


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## dkh7m (Jun 23, 2006)

timckelley said:


> I assume that if I switched to Dish, my stand alone TiVos (series 1 and series 2) would still work with them.


yes, but you will need two seperate boxes (not the DN 322, which is a single, dual-tuner box). i got two 381s, but i've heard the 301s and 311s are better. i have two S2 tivos, both working flawlessly w/ the DN 381 boxes.


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## QVo (Sep 6, 2006)

timckelley said:


> Since I'm an AT&T customer (I have my land line thru them, plus I have my DSL through) them, they often try to quote for me an unsolicited deal on Dish Network. But before I ever consider Dish Network, I'd be interested to know how this trial pans out.
> 
> I assume that if I switched to Dish, my stand alone TiVos (series 1 and series 2) would still work with them.


I have a ViP622 through AT&T - which costs $200 upfront. But they have a "100 back" promotion which gives you $10 off for 10 months if you subscribe, and I _think_ they give you another $10 off for subscribing to an HD package...for a total of $20 for the first 10 months which pays for the dvr pretty much.

Dual tuners, 20 to 29 HD channels (ESPN, HGTV, Food Channel, etc). Now, if you get DSL, Local/Long Distance, plus Dish network through them, then they bump another $8 off that price - which is as long as you have the bundle. I did opt to not commit for 18 months so adds $49 bucks to the price, but I don't mind that because if the S3 comes down to a realistic price point, AND if they fix the tons of problems everyone in the public beta group is having, then I would LOVE to get an S3 and go strictly OTA.

I'm pretty happy with it - I haven't missed a show yet, no freezes, reboots, etc. Someone also mentioned over at dbstalk that if you connect to the OTA tuner, then you could get 3 HD shows recording at once...I don't get reception to ever validate that, but maybe someone else can chime in.


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

Einselen said:


> You know appeals have a small chance at winning? Actually about 10% or so do win. Usually what the lower court decides is final. Appeals court is a lot different then the first trial, esentially in these types of cases unless there was some major illegal procedure the outcome is final.


My 622 is still working so what is your point?


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

mrduffin said:


> My 622 is still working so what is your point?


That when the appeal is complete you might have to hand in your DVR.


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## aridon (Aug 31, 2006)

You know, when you argue with a retard you really can't win.


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## robbins (Aug 23, 2005)

The Dish DVR wins hands down, it's not even close. The Dish DVR is better, faster, cheaper, and very reliable.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Does it adapt to schedule changes, does it have Wish Lists, or Suggestions? Does it have a To Do List, and a View History, complete with reasons why something didn't record? Does it have a Season Pass Manager that allows prioritization of your shows relative to each other? Does it have the undelete function or does it have overlap resolution (when shows overlap by, say, 5 minutes)?

Does it have HMO-type features (transfering shows between DVRs), or ability to offload shows to your PC? Do you have the ability to open the box and modify it (i.e. add hard drive space)?

Does the remote have a 30 second skip forward button or a 7 second instant replay button?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

timckelley said:


> Does it adapt to schedule changes, does it have Wish Lists, or Suggestions? Does it have a To Do List, and a View History, complete with reasons why something didn't record? Does it have a Season Pass Manager that allows prioritization of your shows relative to each other? Does it have the undelete function or does it have overlap resolution (when shows overlap by, say, 5 minutes)?
> 
> Does it have HMO-type features (transfering shows between DVRs), or ability to offload shows to your PC? Do you have the ability to open the box and modify it (i.e. add hard drive space)?
> 
> Does the remote have a 30 second skip forward button or a 7 second instant replay button?


Multiple questions, so multiple answers.
1. Does it adapt to schedule changes - yes
2. Does it have Wish Lists, or Suggestions -does not have suggestions, but does save memory search, so it is like wishlist without auto-recording.
3. View History, complete with reasons why something didn't record - has history, but doesn't tell you why it didn't record because it always does record what you tell it to record (it doesn't have stupid 28 day rules or any other garbage).
4. Does it have a Season Pass Manager that allows prioritization of your shows relative to each other -yes
5. Does it have the undelete function - no
6. does it have overlap resolution (when shows overlap by, say, 5 minutes)? - no but it has negative and positive padding that TiVo users been dreaming about for years.
7. Does it have HMO-type features (transferring shows between DVRs), or ability to offload shows to your PC? No, but why are you asking? S3 doesn't have it either. Are we talking HD DVR here?
8. Do you have the ability to open the box and modify it (i.e. add hard drive space)? - yes, but you don't want to do it if e-SATA is available. Besides it is much more involved than TiVo upgrade.
9. Does the remote have a 30 second skip forward button or a 7 second instant replay button? YES,YES, and YES. Knocks the socks of the TiVo unsupported 30 sec skip. All Dish DVRs have much better trick play control than TiVo. Fast, responsive and just about perfect. One of the major reasons I got 4 of them.
In addition, all Dish DVRs have PIP, FSI and much faster and better TV Guide. I don't have 622 yet, but I presume that all the major features of SD DishPVRs are preserved or enhanced.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

samo said:


> 3. View History, complete with reasons why something didn't record - has history, but doesn't tell you why it didn't record because it always does record what you tell it to record (it doesn't have stupid 28 day rules or any other garbage).


I find View History valuable for other reasons than the 28 day rule. Example: My wife schedules a show that conflicts with mine, and answers 'yes' to 'okay to not record my show'. In View History, it'll tell me she overwrote my show with her show. There are lots of other reasons why a show might not have recorded.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> My wife schedules a show that conflicts with mine, and answers 'yes' to 'okay to not record my


In this type of situation it is probably better not to know why your show didn't record.  My solution for these problems is simple, but efficient. With 7 DVRs and 11 tuners I never have a conflict I can not resolve and one of my R-10s is "for her use only".


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

aridon said:


> You know, when you argue with a retard you really can't win.


Update..the 622 is still up and running. So is guess now you are the retard....

Merry Christmas to all who doubted me! :up:


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## mrduffin (Mar 19, 2005)

622 is still working....thanks for the support.. :up:


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

mrduffin said:


> 622 is still working....thanks for the support.. :up:


It's already been established that the lawsuit judgement is going to take some time to execute. Good luck with your future ability to use that 622.


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