# Do I Go Ahead and Purchase An HR10-250???



## JimBob (Nov 12, 2002)

I'm new to the forum and new to HD/TIVO.

I've read enough to uncover there might be a format change coming (MPEG-2 to MPEG-4). So should I go ahead and get the current version of the HR10-250 or wait?

Does anyone know with any certainty how long before the upgrade comes?

Thanks,
JimBob


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

The new MPEG4-based HD DVR probably won't appear until early 2006, so only you can decide if it's worth buying an HR10-250 now. We expect that DirecTV will offer a sweet upgrade/swap deal, but no specific details have been announced yet.


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## Vivid (Jul 22, 2004)

Nothing is certain apart from if you don't get the HR10 you won't have an HD DVR for 6 months or more... that being said if I was in your boat I'm not sure what I would do... 

If we knew how D* was going to replace the HR10 for customers when the new MPEG-4 box comes out it would be a lot easier to advise; whether they will do straight swap, charge a small upgrade fee, large upgrade fee or leave us high and dry with nothing.


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## tbb1226 (Sep 16, 2004)

Vivid said:


> If we knew how D* was going to replace the HR10 for customers when the new MPEG-4 box comes out it would be a lot easier to advise; whether they will do straight swap, charge a small upgrade fee, large upgrade fee or leave us high and dry with nothing.


You can bet the farm that it will not be either of those last two. They've announced already that they'll be footing the bill for swapping customers' equipment. The exact deal is TBD, but it won't be financially burdensome on the customer.

The only real unknown is what sort of DVR service they'll give us instead of TiVo.


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## JimBob (Nov 12, 2002)

So is the question more aligned with the TIVO service itself and its interface with D* rather than the format of HD??

Please, please pardon me for my ignorance on this?


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

JimBob said:


> So is the question more aligned with the TIVO service itself and its interface with D* rather than the format of HD??
> 
> Please, please pardon me for my ignorance on this?


Both. The next generation DirecTV DVRs will not use Tivo software. And, the HiDef video format is changing from MPEG2 to MPEG4.


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## NotATameLion (Oct 25, 2002)

JimBob said:


> So is the question more aligned with the TIVO service itself and its interface with D* rather than the format of HD??
> 
> Please, please pardon me for my ignorance on this?


I think the question right now for most people is dropping $500 or more on hardware that will be obsolete at an indeterminent point in the future, and it is unknown what the upgrade cost will be.

The question of MPEG-2 vs MPEG-4 format is not directly related to what to purchase. Neither codec in itself will mean better or worse picture quality. MPEG-4 allows better compression, so requires a lower bitrate to achieve the same PQ as MPEG-2. This is why D* is converting to MPEG-4. It is indirectly related to your purchase decision in that the HR10-250 only decodes MPEG-2, so eventually it will need to be replaced when D* has fully converted to MPEG-4 and turns off the MPEG-2 stream. But who knows when that will be, and D* has announced in their 1Q conf call that they will be taking an expense for hardware swapouts.

We do know that the new D* DVRs will not be running TiVo software, so if that is where your loyalty lies, then your choice is to wait for TiVo to release its standalone CableCard HD DVR, which I don't know if it is even announced officially yet. Or if you have Comcast cable you can wait for them to ship a TiVo box, but this agreement was just announced, so who knows how long that will be.

If you aren't tied to TiVo software, your choices are:
1. wait until D* releases and MPEG-4 HD DVR, which is unknown, but probably sometime in 2006. Either stick to SD, watch HD live OTA, or switch to cable or Dish in the interim.
2. buy the HR10-250 now, and bank on getting a free upgrade when you need it, or at least an upgrade cheap enough to be worth having an HD DVR for the next 6 to 12 months or longer.

My opinion is that the concensus is that D* takes reasonably good care of their customers, and has swapped hardware out when needed in the past, so the swapout cost is very likely to be very low. Also, the new hardware has been announced, but not delivered, and delivery dates are often much farther out than when they were initially announced.


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## Vivid (Jul 22, 2004)

tbb1226 said:


> You can bet the farm that it will not be either of those last two. They've announced already that they'll be footing the bill for swapping customers' equipment. The exact deal is TBD, but it won't be financially burdensome on the customer.


I hope your right and D* does treat its customers in the right way but we just don't know... and when D* said they wont leave us high and dry, their offer could be a 50% discount on the new box $1000, some might say that generous other might say that's burdensome.

Fingers crossed it will be a free swap or just the FedEx cost and I have to say I dont think it will be a straight swap, that would cost them a whole bunch and really what choice do we have; A class action suit? Technology changes and they are not responsible for that, we will have had over a years notice? You could change provider but I will stay with D* no matter how they handle it because of Sunday Ticket, but that does not mean I wont be pissed if the swap offer is not a good one.


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## Broken Link (Apr 28, 2005)

When they make the switch to mpeg4 I didnt know that they would take my tivo.
I cant bare the thought of being tivoless.


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## Vivid (Jul 22, 2004)

Broken Link said:


> When they make the switch to mpeg4 I didnt know that they would take my tivo.
> I cant bare the thought of being tivoless.


I think you will be able to keep the HR10 and it will work just as it does right now for a while... You are not being fored to swap initialy but if you don't you wont get the new HD channels


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

If we go TiVoless, what'll happen to these two forums for HD TiVo and DirecTV with TiVo


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## tbb1226 (Sep 16, 2004)

Vivid said:


> Fingers crossed it will be a free swap or just the FedEx cost and I have to say I dont think it will be a straight swap, that would cost them a whole bunch and really what choice do we have; A class action suit? Technology changes and they are not responsible for that, we will have had over a years notice? You could change provider but I will stay with D* no matter how they handle it because of Sunday Ticket, but that does not mean I wont be pissed if the swap offer is not a good one.


IMHO, they are indeed responsible for technology changes that obsolete hardware so soon after its introduction (IIRC, the announcement was less than a year after the HD-TiVo debuted). Because they announced the switch to MPEG4, then continued to market and sell the HD-TiVo (and their other MPEG2 HD receivers) at pretty much the same (high) prices, they are absolutely obligated (morally, if not legally  ) to offer a no-cost swap to those who went HD after the announcement. It's less imperative that they offer it to those of us that jumped in before the announcement, but they'd have to be really stupid to risk alienating their most lucrative customers by withholding it.

Again, we may not like what they offer in exchange, but it will have "similar"  functionality, and almost certainly will not cost us anything additional (aside from time off work waiting for the installer, that is  ).


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## NotATameLion (Oct 25, 2002)

Scott D said:


> If we go TiVoless, what'll happen to these two forums for HD TiVo and DirecTV with TiVo


I was wondering that as well. AVSForum?


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## Vivid (Jul 22, 2004)

tbb1226 said:


> IMHO, they are indeed responsible for technology changes that obsolete hardware so soon after its introduction (IIRC, the announcement was less than a year after the HD-TiVo debuted). Because they announced the switch to MPEG4, then continued to market and sell the HD-TiVo (and their other MPEG2 HD receivers) at pretty much the same (high) prices, they are absolutely obligated (morally, if not legally  ) to offer a no-cost swap to those who went HD after the announcement.


As I said I hope your right but that line of thinking can be applied to any and all forms of technology... Will Microsoft replace my xbox and games when the xbox 2 comes out? My current games wont play on it. Will MS replace my incompatible software when Longhorn comes out? When they finally decided on an HD DVD format will all my DVDs bought after the announcement be replaced with HD versions? The list goes on and I think we would all agree the answer is no they would not give me anything... 

I think its great that D* is going to do something and I feel that its required due to the extremely short period of time that the change has/will happen. But going back to the original qu of to buy or not to buy, I just don't know, it depends on what D* does when MPEG-4 comes out and we dont know.


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## DaveWhittle (Jul 25, 2002)

Vivid said:


> As I said I hope your right but that line of thinking can be applied to any and all forms of technology... Will Microsoft replace my xbox and games when the xbox 2 comes out? My current games wont play on it. Will MS replace my incompatible software when Longhorn comes out?


 :down: These are really bad analogies.

Your Xbox will still work after Xbox 360 comes out. You will still be able to play Halo2 on it, even on Live. You will still be able to use your computer with Windows XP and all the software that was written for XP when Longhorn comes out.

With DirecTV, once they change to MPEG4, those with MPEG2 hardware won't be able to use their hardware, so a switch needs to be made.


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## Vivid (Jul 22, 2004)

DaveWhittle said:


> :down: These are really bad analogies.
> 
> Your Xbox will still work after Xbox 360 comes out. You will still be able to play Halo2 on it, even on Live. You will still be able to use your computer with Windows XP and all the software that was written for XP when Longhorn comes out.
> 
> With DirecTV, once they change to MPEG4, those with MPEG2 hardware won't be able to use their hardware, so a switch needs to be made.


Not really... the HR10 also will still work, problably for several years of HD and many years of SD. I don't belive D* has said when they will stop MPEG-2 so we don't know when it will stop working for HD. And I can't find software for windows 98 just as when MPEG-2 stops we won't be able to find new HD shows to record you can still watch your recorded HD shows and recod new stuff in SD... Its technology it gets updated and obsolete, that just life...

But D* is going to help us some how and I agree that they sould. My point is that I don't think the upgrade is going to be free or close to free as others think.


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## DaveWhittle (Jul 25, 2002)

Vivid said:


> And I can't find software for windows 98 just as when MPEG-2 stops we won't be able to find new HD shows to record you can still watch your recorded HD shows and recod new stuff in SD... Its technology it gets updated and obsolete, that just life...


I don't understand your logic. You buy a computer with Windows 98, you buy software for windows '98 and do your computing. Just because Microsoft updates the OS and new software is written for that update, it has no baring on your Windows '98 computer. Just because some new program comes out that you want and isn't supported on Win98 doesn't mean you are "owed" a free copy of XP, Longhorn or whatever. Another analogy: if I own Abby Road on vinyl it doesn't mean I get a free copy of it on CD because I replaced my turntable with a CD player. Nor am I owed a CD player because I can't find any albums anymore - all my old albums still work fine on my turntable.

On the other hand, DirecTV will someday turn off MPEG2. Subscribers with MPEG2 decoding hardware will need new hardware. If DirecTV wants to keep those subscribers, they better supply them with replacement hardware.


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## Vivid (Jul 22, 2004)

DaveWhittle said:


> You buy a computer with Windows 98, you buy software for windows '98 and do your computing. Just because Microsoft updates the OS and new software is written for that update, it has no baring on your Windows '98 computer. Just because some new program comes out that you want and isn't supported on Win98 doesn't mean you are "owed" a free copy of XP, Longhorn or whatever.


Exactly you've said it better that I... Let me take exactly what you said and make it for the HR10.

You buy an HR10 with Tivo, you record shows for Tivo and do your watching. Just because D* updates the codec and new shows are written for that update, it has no baring on your HR10. Just because some new shows comes out that you want and isn't supported on HR10 doesn't mean you are "owed" a free copy of XP, Longhorn or whatever.


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## Robert Spalding (Jan 12, 2001)

the HD Tivo is getting a new price ($699) as of the 17th of May, wai until then


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## Vivid (Jul 22, 2004)

Robert Spalding said:


> the HD Tivo is getting a new price ($699) as of the 17th of May, wai until then


Definatly and enjoy what the box can do now and worry about how long it can do it later.


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## berth (Nov 4, 2003)

If you hate commercials as much as I do, then get the box at the discount after getting a commitment from D* on discounts on HD service etc -- if you agree to purchase the box. (There is a thread on this in this in this forum)

I have been very happy with my HD TIVO (still the original one from April) and found that virtually all the problems that I have had are from the networks, the local station or local reception problems -- very high trees and a large hill between me and the towers.

I do record ***very little*** HD from D* and mostly get OTA HD, so unless you are in an area where they will be putting up your locals in the satillite, you should be fine for quite a while.

I also think that HD is like a lot of sports or activities where the entry criteria is the ability to burn <fill in> size dollar bills and not cringe. Examples: Skiing =$50, yachting = $1000, HDTV = $100?

regards, bert


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## JimBob (Nov 12, 2002)

OK, I did it.

Purchased it from VE. Robert was extremly helpful. He spent a good 30 minutes on the phone with me answering my questions.

As far as the price, I can assure you Robert has the lowest of all the unadvertised prices. It, ships next Tuesday.

Thanks to everyone who contributed. Everyone was very helpful.

JimBob


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## CalypsoCowboy (Jan 7, 2004)

I think I may have to jump to. 700 - 250 credit is 450 plus if you can work any other extra credits you can work. I've heard of people getting 450 in credits which would get the cost down to 250. What may happen in the future may be uncertain but even with MPEP4 you'll still be able to record OTA HD and regular SD for a while.


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## Crash_Corrigan (Feb 27, 2004)

Better make sure D* is still offering credits (or at least that level of credits). There's no guarantee that they are still being as generous now that they've lowered the price.

I think D* was more generous with credits on HD STBs a couple years when they sold for $700-$800 than when they lowered the price.


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## JimBob (Nov 12, 2002)

Crash,

See my post on the thread on how to deal with D* for discounts. This morning I negotiated for a total of $469 in D* programing and other credits. I've pre-ordered my HR10-250 from VE to be shipped next Tuesday. So, it seems that until D* actually lowers their price, they are continuing to offer the credits.

This would appear to be the best week (prior to May 17th) to pull the chain and get the machine. I'm quite happy with the bottom line price in the end. At the amount I ended up giving for my HR10-250 (post credits) it was a no-brainer to go ahead and get it.

JimBob


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## Mikehdtv (Feb 18, 2004)

A sucker is born everyday. Stay away from the HD-Tivo, it will just be a pain in your "A" and will be obsolete in 7 months. But hey it's your money. :down:


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## Crash_Corrigan (Feb 27, 2004)

JimBob,

Congrats on getting such a good deal. You appear to have picked a good time to take the plunge. Of course, I don't regret buying mine last May. My net cost after credits was $749 and it's been worth every penny to timeshift HD and watch what I want on my schedule (as well as skip commercials).

I had a harddrive failure with my first unit last September, but it was replaced via FedEx 2nd day Air. The replacement unit has performed flawlessly (knock on wood).

Since I don't need HD locals via satellite, I'm not sure how soon I'll have to switch to the new MPEG-4 gear (could be 6 months, could be 12 months or a couple years for all we know), but I think the earliest of early adopters will be able to tell us about the new equipment and about D*'s upgrade offer long before I need to upgrade. So I should have plenty of time and information to make a decision on whether to upgrade or (if necessary) switch to Charter Cable and rent a Moxi DVR and sell my HDTivo. In the mean time, I figure I've got the best HD DVR out there (and the only one that works with D*).

Enjoy.


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## digiboy (Jan 19, 2004)

DaveWhittle said:


> I don't understand your logic. You buy a computer with Windows 98, you buy software for windows '98 and do your computing. Just because Microsoft updates the OS and new software is written for that update, it has no baring on your Windows '98 computer. Just because some new program comes out that you want and isn't supported on Win98 doesn't mean you are "owed" a free copy of XP, Longhorn or whatever. Another analogy: if I own Abby Road on vinyl it doesn't mean I get a free copy of it on CD because I replaced my turntable with a CD player. Nor am I owed a CD player because I can't find any albums anymore - all my old albums still work fine on my turntable.
> 
> On the other hand, DirecTV will someday turn off MPEG2. Subscribers with MPEG2 decoding hardware will need new hardware. If DirecTV wants to keep those subscribers, they better supply them with replacement hardware.


There is a huge flaw in this argument. We are monthly subscribers to D*.

Micrsoft does off subscription plans and if you sign up, you DO get all software updates.

The key element in the wars between D*, DISH, cable, etc. is making it easy to migrate initially, difficult to change. If D* charges customers for channels that cannot be received without shelling out $ for new hardware - how many subscribers (and mostly their top tier subscribers) are going to look at other options? Retention demands customer service and D* would be foolish to remove the carrot from the stick.


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## richierich (Jul 10, 2002)

Mikehdtv said:


> A sucker is born everyday. Stay away from the HD-Tivo, it will just be a pain in your "A" and will be obsolete in 7 months. But hey it's your money. :down:


The HR10-250 will not be obsolete in 7 months because the MPEG-4 will just be used initially for HD Local Channels. If you get your HD Local Channels via OTA then who cares about the MPEG-4 Locals, just another service you will have to pay for when I get it for free. Also, any other channels that will be broadcast in MPEG-4 will also be broadcast in MPEG-2 for at least 2 years so your statement that this unit will be obsolete has no merit. In fact I bought me second unit and aside from the fact that I have to run SpinRite to correct the flaws caused by new software downloads to the piece of SH!T WD hard drive that should be replaced but I can't because of all of the stuff I have on it. Thank God for SpinRite because it has resurrected my hard drive twice and now I can still watch all of my recordings still intact.


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## NotATameLion (Oct 25, 2002)

richierich said:


> Also, any other channels that will be broadcast in MPEG-4 will also be broadcast in MPEG-2 for at least 2 years so your statement that this unit will be obsolete has no merit.


Is this official or just speculated? I've not seen this announced by DirecTV, but I might have missed it.


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## richierich (Jul 10, 2002)

Yes, it has been announced and discussed here in this forum. They can't afford to swap out every STB plus Tivos, etc. in 6 months, they estimated 2 to 3 years before everyone will be swapped over. There are too many customers that they would lose just to give them HD locals which alot of people aren't even interested in. It just will not happen as quickly as everyone thinks because of the infrastructure associated with all of this. The affiliates etc. would have to make alot of equipment changes. They are not going to pull the plug on MPEG-2 until all of there customers have been switched over and most of those are not even HD customers.


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## NotATameLion (Oct 25, 2002)

richierich said:


> Yes, it has been announced and discussed here in this forum. They can't afford to swap out every STB plus Tivos, etc. in 6 months, they estimated 2 to 3 years before everyone will be swapped over. There are too many customers that they would lose just to give them HD locals which alot of people aren't even interested in. It just will not happen as quickly as everyone thinks because of the infrastructure associated with all of this. The affiliates etc. would have to make alot of equipment changes. They are not going to pull the plug on MPEG-2 until all of there customers have been switched over and most of those are not even HD customers.


I apologize if I'm not getting it, but I've been reading this forum as well as AVSForums, and what I've not seen that you are purporting as announced and official is that D* guaranteed that all new HD programming would be offered in both MPEG-4 and MPEG-2. If you have a link to this announcement, please post. I must have missed it.

I know they will not turn off the MPEG-2 stream until everyone is on MPEG-4, but I believe it is speculation as to when that will be completed.

What I gathered was official from DirecTV was
1. they are adding capability for much more HD programming, which would begin with HD LIL.
2. equipment swapout would coincide with HD LIL rollout, and will include MPEG-4 based boxes as well as a new dish to point to the new sats.
3. MPEG-2 will not be pulled until everyone is on MPEG-4.

I've read on these forums that there is not much bandwidth on the existing satellites for more than 1 or 2 additional HD channels. I doubt that for the next 2 years D* will only rollout 2 additional HD channels. So I conclude from this that either:
1. there will be HD content on MPEG-4 that will not be available to remaining MPEG-2 users for some period of time until they get swapped out.
2. The swapout will be made relatively quickly, so everyone will be on MPEG-4 equipment before much new HD content is delivered. I've read that they're plan is to roll out 12 DMAs per month once they begin.


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## aspurgeon (Mar 9, 2006)

I just purchased the DirecTV HD 250 and it does everything I was needing. I am replacing a DirecTV reciever and TiVo 2 unit.

I've had a 65" Mitsubishi 1080 CRT projection monitor for about 7 years and never really used the HD aspects of it. In fact I was thinking of buying a new Sony 1080 projection display but now I can say that won't be necessary. The HD images look stunning when watching Discovery HD and Showtime HD shows and the interface between the DirecTV receiver and the TiVo DVR is smooth. I can get many HD channels off air as well since I have line of site to downtown Seattle.

I paid $449 for the unit at BestBuy because the package was opened once.

The only thing I don't like is the slow redrawing of the listing guide. Its almost painful.

thanks,
Al


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## bigcb37 (Jun 14, 2002)

The default setting on the Tivo is to have the listing guide set as the "Directv Guide" switch it to the "Tivo Guide" and it will speed things up significantly. Just press info when the guide is up and you will be able to change the guide options. There is a spot to switch from directv to tivo...its a better guide format IMO anyways


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