# Series 3 owner thinking about upgrade - any whispers on Roamio replacement?



## Chris92101 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi all,

Just got the Amazon e-mail about the service change over. Not really bothered as I don't have more than a couple of purchased shows, but am tempted with a shiny new toy...

Currently I've got a HD XL from late 2008.

The Roamio has been out since August 2013, presumably a refresh is due this year? Not sure I want to buy one now if it's going to be replaced in 6 months. Anyone heard anything?

Apart from the usual glitches with the tuning adapter and the occasional need to reboot, the XL has been pretty good.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Chris92101 said:


> The Roamio has been out since August 2013, presumably a refresh is due this year?


Not likely. I doubt TiVo will come out with a new DVR until we get a CableCard replacement, and that's years away.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Tivo has not been on a two year refresh schedule. Three prehaps, but for now it appears they are concentrating on the software since the hardware is extremely capable.


----------



## Chris92101 (Nov 23, 2008)

OK, thanks all - I might call and see what the 10 year plus owner deals are.

Chris


----------



## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

Chris92101 said:


> OK, thanks all - I might call and see what the 10 year plus owner deals are.
> 
> Chris


If you wouldn't mind sharing what the response is for a 10 year plus owner, I'd appreciate hearing it.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

The loyalty offer (for 10 years, although some have gotten it, seemingly, at as low as 7--but I wouldn't count on that, as some TiVo reps. have said that the timing is pretty strict):

Buy the Roamio standard, Plus, or Pro box directly from TiVo at the full price, and get lifetime for $199 (Roamio standard) or $99 (Plus or Pro). And if you negotiate some, a rep. might also offer a free Pro glow remote, to sweeten the pot.


----------



## abovethesink (Aug 26, 2013)

The only possibility I see in the near future is a fourth tier Roamio capable of playing 4k. Netflix and Amazon both offer 4k content now. I don't think it is likely though.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The only thing I could see is maybe a higher end OTA unit with 6 tuners and Stream built in and/or maybe a minor refresh of the current line with bigger drives.


----------



## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> The only thing I could see is maybe a higher end OTA unit with 6 tuners and Stream built in and/or maybe a minor refresh of the current line with bigger drives.


I didn't think the OTA chipsets currently available could do more than four tuners.

It would be nice if they built in the Stream on all boxes, but it would increase pricing.

I don't see any reason for them to refresh the hardware at this point.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Not likely. I doubt TiVo will come out with a new DVR until we get a CableCard replacement, and that's years away.


That's probably the case for a major refresh.



abovethesink said:


> The only possibility I see in the near future is a fourth tier Roamio capable of playing 4k. Netflix and Amazon both offer 4k content now. I don't think it is likely though.


They're not going to do that for streaming. If several large MSOs put 4k content on linear QAMs, maybe. Maybe.



Dan203 said:


> The only thing I could see is maybe a higher end OTA unit with 6 tuners and Stream built in and/or maybe a minor refresh of the current line with bigger drives.


There is no demand for an OTA unit with more than 4 tuners, since there aren't that many OTA channels. The upgraded hard drives is the most likely upgrade, since that would cost them almost nothing to do.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bigg said:


> There is no demand for an OTA unit with more than 4 tuners, since there aren't that many OTA channels.


That _might_ have been the case before the OTA digital signal conversion, but for me nowadays in an urban area, I often can find many shows at the same time to record, and 6 tuners could come in handy. Having said that, enough is enough.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> There is no demand for an OTA unit with more than 4 tuners, since there aren't that many OTA channels


There are 5 networks with exclusive prime time programming... ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox and The CW. So that alone could justify more then 4 tuners.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> There are 5 networks with exclusive prime time programming... ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox and The CW. So that alone could justify more then 4 tuners.


Well, that could justify matters as a brute physical matter. Now, as a matter of quality programming . . . .  Well, there's a few channels of PBS for that (adding to your list).


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> There are 5 networks with exclusive prime time programming... ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox and The CW. So that alone could justify more then 4 tuners.


By that logic, the Roamio Pro needs about 200 tuners, as some areas with FIOS have 200 linear HD's on them. Pretty sure 4 tuners is more than enough.



Mikeguy said:


> Well, that could justify matters as a brute physical matter. Now, as a matter of quality programming . . . .  Well, there's a few channels of PBS for that (adding to your list).


Exactly. Other than sports and Big Bang Theory, I don't watch the networks except for PBS. PBS is fantastic!


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Bigg said:


> By that logic, the Roamio Pro needs about 200 tuners, as some areas with FIOS have 200 linear HD's on them. Pretty sure 4 tuners is more than enough.


No because unlike the locals, cable channels repeat since they air for both EST and PST.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> By that logic, the Roamio Pro needs about 200 tuners, as some areas with FIOS have 200 linear HD's on them. Pretty sure 4 tuners is more than enough.


The vast majority of cable channels, perhaps even all of them, repeat their content several times throughout the week. The big broadcast channels are the only ones that only show content once in competing time slots.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Broadcasters tend to find out which shows I care about and schedule them opposite each other, so the original Big 3, plus Fox, plus PBS, and I'm already over 4 tuners, and when I finally stick that antenna in the attic I suspect anything I care about on CW will conflict as well.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> The vast majority of cable channels, perhaps even all of them, repeat their content several times throughout the week. The big broadcast channels are the only ones that only show content once in competing time slots.


True, but there's not a lot of good content on the big 4 in the first place, and a lot of content is available via other means for the once in a blue moon that there is a conflict that 4 tuners can't take care of. There are also some shows and events that need a tuner at a specific time on cable channels, not everything repeats, although some things do.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Except that it's not just the Big 4 or 5--there are a few PBS stations in my area (I have 4 different PBS stations with good content) plus a handful or 2 of other consistently often good stations as well. And what I've been finding most recently is that there often is good content on the substations (the x-2, etc. stations)--I've been finding many classic television shows on them, as well as classic movies. A nice benefit of the OTA digital conversion.

And let's face it: it's when you don't have sufficient tuners that competing good content is on.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Except that it's not just the Big 4 or 5--there are a few PBS stations in my area (I have 4 different PBS stations with good content) plus a handful or 2 of other consistently often good stations as well. And what I've been finding most recently is that there often is good content on the substations (the x-2, etc. stations)--I've been finding many classic television shows on them, as well as classic movies. A nice benefit of the OTA digital conversion.
> 
> And let's face it: it's when you don't have sufficient tuners that competing good content is on.


4 different PBSes. So a 4-tuner would be all you need, one for each PBS station.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Bigg said:


> 4 different PBSes. So a 4-tuner would be all you need, one for each PBS station.


But each one of those has subchannels, don't they?


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

unitron said:


> But each one of those has subchannels, don't they?





Bigg said:


> 4 different PBSes. So a 4-tuner would be all you need, one for each PBS station.


Actually, it's 2 different PBS channels with 4 or so overlapping sub-channels or sub-channels with the same content differently timed (well, there's another 5th sub-channel as well, with kiddie content). And then there's another PBS channel out there as well . . . .


----------



## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I thought that TiVo layd off all but a couple of the hardware engineers when Roamio work was completed with in mind TiVo was getting out of the hardware selling business. So Roamio is the end of the line coming from TiVo in the way of hardware. 
http://www.wired.com/2014/01/tivo-lays-hardware-design-team-gets-ready-exit-hardware/
"The sources told WIRED that Tivo is getting out of the hardware business altogether and making a big direction change. "



Bigg said:


> There is no demand for an OTA unit with more than 4 tuners, since there aren't that many OTA channels. The upgraded hard drives is the most likely upgrade, since that would cost them almost nothing to do.


I have 18 OTA channels I watch in Denver.


----------



## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

replaytv said:


> I thought that TiVo layd off all but a couple of the hardware engineers when Roamio work was completed with in mind TiVo was getting out of the hardware selling business. So Roamio is the end of the line coming from TiVo in the way of hardware.
> http://www.wired.com/2014/01/tivo-lays-hardware-design-team-gets-ready-exit-hardware/
> "The sources told WIRED that Tivo is getting out of the hardware business altogether and making a big direction change. "
> 
> I have 18 OTA channels I watch in Denver.


I wish people would stop quoting this article - wired even did a retraction. TiVo is not getting out of the hardware business. Like any company TiVo staffs up during periods of need and contracts during periods of less need.

Once the Roamio line was delivered, yes, they shank the engineering department. This was not a statement about future direction - it is just a reflextion of the product delivery cycle.

As for the Roamio itself - the box is finally fully capable and I do not foresee a series update until something in the industry drives that change - i.e. The retirement Cable Cards


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

unitron said:


> But each one of those has subchannels, don't they?


Hmmmmm, you might have me there. 



replaytv said:


> I have 18 OTA channels I watch in Denver.


For every extreme OTA TV watcher, there are probably 5 people who watch 50+ cable channels. No one is going to build a DVR for fringe use cases like that. The vast majority of OTA users are OTA users because they don't watch much TV in the first place, so 4 tuners is more than enough for them. Most people who watch any significant amount of TV have cable/satellite.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> I wish people would stop quoting this article - wired even did a retraction. TiVo is not getting out of the hardware business. Like any company TiVo staffs up during periods of need and contracts during periods of less need. Once the Roamio line was delivered, yes, they shank the engineering department. This was not a statement about future direction - it is just a reflextion of the product delivery cycle. As for the Roamio itself - the box is finally fully capable and I do not foresee a series update until something in the industry drives that change - i.e. The retirement Cable Cards


That being said, I bet they are indeed attempting to become more of a software only company. I think their end goal is to have a cloud server hosting a bunch of end user client boxes with apps on them like Roku, Chromecast, FireTV, XBox, etc., a la' SlingTV and Vue and soon to be Apple.

Hmmmmmm..........TiVoTV. Has a nice ring to it.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bigg said:


> The vast majority of OTA users are OTA users because they don't watch much TV in the first place, so 4 tuners is more than enough for them. Most people who watch any significant amount of TV have cable/satellite.


Yeah, I just don't buy that. A bunch of people, especially since the last recession, would just as soon save $100-$200 per month/$1,200-$2,400 per year.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> Hmmmmm, you might have me there.  For every extreme OTA TV watcher, there are probably 5 people who watch 50+ cable channels. No one is going to build a DVR for fringe use cases like that. The vast majority of OTA users are OTA users because they don't watch much TV in the first place, so 4 tuners is more than enough for them. Most people who watch any significant amount of TV have cable/satellite.





Mikeguy said:


> Yeah, I just don't buy that. A bunch of people, especially since the last recession, would just as soon save $100-$200 per month/$1,200-$2,400 per year.


Yeah I could easily go OTA and still watch everything I can now with a little more effort. It's only my family who aren't willing to change old habits that keep us on cable.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Yeah, I just don't buy that. A bunch of people, especially since the last recession, would just as soon save $100-$200 per month/$1,200-$2,400 per year.


Most people who watch TV watch stuff off of cable channels. The people who are going OTA are people who don't watch much TV in the first place, or don't care what shows they are watching, and thus really shouldn't have had cable in the first place. It's not a sea change in the market, it's a right-sizing of an arbitrarily inflated market.

Even if you assume that you have Netflix and Amazon anyway (I do, they are a supplement to cable), you still have to look at the costs of de-bundling. Depending on the cable company, dropping TV often only saves $50/mo or less due to the aggressive bundling practices. As soon as you buy a couple of shows a-la-carte or SlingTV or something, you're right back where you started, with less content and less convenience.

The whole cord-cutting thing is way overblown, it's just a right-sizing of the market, and most households aren't going to "cut the cord".

Thus, TiVo is right to take a cautious position in trying to build OTA DVRs. Even the OTA is a Roamio Basic without the cable card slot, and a few software tweaks. Building a platform specifically for the OTA market would be dumb. Their bread and butter is in cable DVRs, and will be for a long time to come.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Most people who watch TV watch stuff off of cable channels. The people who are going OTA are people who don't watch much TV in the first place, or don't care what shows they are watching, and thus really shouldn't have had cable in the first place. It's not a sea change in the market, it's a right-sizing of an arbitrarily inflated market. . . .


Sorry, but I just don't buy your premise to begin with, nor do I see any support for it; and you keep on ignoring the cost factor.



> Thus, TiVo is right to take a cautious position in trying to build OTA DVRs. Even the OTA is a Roamio Basic without the cable card slot, and a few software tweaks. Building a platform specifically for the OTA market would be dumb. Their bread and butter is in cable DVRs, and will be for a long time to come.


There is no platform specifically for the OTA market--it's simply a TiVo with an OTA tuner, which TiVo has had since its beginning.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> you still have to look at the costs of de-bundling. Depending on the cable company, dropping TV often only saves $50/mo or less due to the aggressive bundling practices.


I looked at mine. Right now I have the everything bundle which includes all the premium channels. If I were to drop down to the lowest tier, which excludes a few channels we actually watch, and then add back just HBO and ShowTime the price is actually higher then what I pay now. So in my market if you want Premiums it's actually cheaper to get the everything bundle. Go figure.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Sorry, but I just don't buy your premise to begin with, nor do I see any support for it; and you keep on ignoring the cost factor.
> 
> The premise that people who go OTA don't watch much TV in the first place? I think that's self-evident.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bigg said:


> If cost is that huge of a driving factor, then they don't see much value in cable TV. If they don't see value in cable TV, they probably don't watch it much in the first place.


Or maybe it's people who like television but just aren't willing to pay the cable tolls, and who can find sufficient offerings in OTA and make significant use of it.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Or maybe it's people who like television but just aren't willing to pay the cable tolls, and who can find sufficient offerings in OTA and make significant use of it.


They're not that into it if they don't care what content they are watching, and will take whatever is left on the networks. That being said, PBS is really good, but modern US TV isn't much without HBO and sports. For a casual/light TV watcher who didn't really utilize their cable in the first place, it makes perfect sense to get rid of cable or downgrade to Limited Basic, but that's not most people.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> They're not that into it if they don't care what content they are watching, and will take whatever is left on the networks. That being said, PBS is really good, but modern US TV isn't much without HBO and sports. For a casual/light TV watcher who didn't really utilize their cable in the first place, it makes perfect sense to get rid of cable or downgrade to Limited Basic, but that's not most people.


Why is it that every time I read a post by you, I think of this............


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> Why is it that every time I read a post by you, I think of this............


If could think of exactly what you make me think of, I probably couldn't post it anyway.


----------



## Wexlerbob (Apr 4, 2015)

We have 6 major networks plus PBS, plus a bunch of smaller retro or specialty channels.
Even OTA 4 tuners would not be nearly enough. I am currently using 2 Dish Hoppers with Sling giving me 10 tuners total and on rare occasions my wife still yells at me when a recording high jacks what she is watching.
I am looking i cord cutting when all my current credits expire and I am forced to pay full price.
The first year or two I would have to add in the cost of the antenae and amplifiers plus two TiVo basics and tTiVo service, so savings would be minimal especially if I add Netflix. After that with two TiVo fees and Netflix I be at just under half of the current cost.
I have to determine if I can actually get OTA in the fringe area where I live and convince my wife she can live without a few of the channels she watches.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I am not going to quote anyone but am commenting on the last several posts. 

There are a certain percentage of households who either can not afford pay TV or just don't watch TV. They are not here posting on this forum so I am not going to talk about them. 

Some people are either TV and/or sports junkies they really have no choice, to get their fix they have to have pay TV. 

That leaves the rest of us. We watch TV and can afford pay TV. For this group having pay TV comes down to the wants and needs of the individual household and my guess is value has allot to do with it. Where pay TV maybe a great value for a family of 4 with little kids it may also be a bad value of someone living alone (note there are around 33 million 1 person household in the U.S.). 

For me the main reason I don't have pay TV is simple, it is a bad value. I live alone do not watch sports and limited my viewing to around 2 hours of non news TV per day. I have no real issue obtaining that much from OTA - I have 7 stations broadcasting in HD (ABC, CBS, CW, Fox, Ion, NBC, & PBS) plus another 2-3 usable SD stations. I also rent movies from Redbox enjoy going to the movie theater. 

For many using cable for Internet access, having some low end cable package may also make more $$ sense than having Internet access alone. I don't happen to live where I can get cable so Internet access doesn't factor into if I am going to have pay TV or not.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> I am not going to quote anyone but am commenting on the last several posts.
> 
> There are a certain percentage of households who either can not afford pay TV or just don't watch TV. They are not here posting on this forum so I am not going to talk about them.
> 
> ...


You just pointed out the complications of what people want in TV, each person/family has to make their own decision, I know nobody with a 6 figure income that does not have cable, I am sure there are many people with 6 figure incomes that don't have cable, my neighbor tried that for a few years because he thought that it would healthier for his family not to watch much TV, after a few years he gave up the fight and got cable (money was never an issue). Cable is a personal decision and most people on this forum like TV or they would not own a TiVo and not be on this Forum. Most people on this Forum have smart phones, my wife and I don't as we don't need one, My wife and I use simple flip phones, gets the job done for us at less than $16/per month with text and some data from* Page +* but our Cable with HBO & SHO, 2 land lines, 3 cable cards, and 100Mb/s internet is a little over $200/month.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

lessd said:


> ...*complicities*...


That word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> That word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.


Corrected


----------



## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

Didn't Tivo demo a 4K DVR at a trade show?
Also there's the Tivo Mega announcement. 

I don't see any concrete evidence they're going to stop making hardware (in the short term).


----------



## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

telemark said:


> Didn't Tivo demo a 4K DVR at a trade show?
> Also there's the Tivo Mega announcement.
> 
> I don't see any concrete evidence they're going to stop making hardware.


TiVo isn't getting out of the hardware business and they aren't moving to a software provider for MSO's...

Not only will you see minor updates like you mention - the S6 will focus on post cable card access.


----------



## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> That leaves the rest of us. We watch TV and can afford pay TV ... For me the main reason I don't have pay TV is simple, it is a bad value ...


We switched to broadcast and it only took about a week of adjustment. PBS instead the food and gardening channels. We had watched local channels for news and network series anyways. So we missed some A&E only detective shows and whatever. It wasn't worth either the $100+ per month and the frustration of a bill that has literally been higher each and every month since the 1980s.

We relocated and weren't sure of the signal so we started out on cable again. We are again tired of the cable bill changing every month and we are again cutting the cable. It turns out our signal here is fine anyways.

It's the value. Sports channels? To us there is already too much sports on broadcast. Cooking and gardening? PBS covers those nicely. Detective shows? Plenty of them on broadcast. A bill that increases literally every month since the 1980s? Our Tivo subscription doesn't do that.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Wexlerbob said:


> We have 6 major networks plus PBS, plus a bunch of smaller retro or specialty channels.
> Even OTA 4 tuners would not be nearly enough.


Then you're an extreme fringe case. For anybody who needs more than 4 tuners OTA, there are probably 10 people who need more than 6 on cable.



atmuscarella said:


> That leaves the rest of us. We watch TV and can afford pay TV. For this group having pay TV comes down to the wants and needs of the individual household and my guess is value has allot to do with it. Where pay TV maybe a great value for a family of 4 with little kids it may also be a bad value of someone living alone (note there are around 33 million 1 person household in the U.S.).


Right. But the people who don't value pay TV don't watch much TV in the first place, and they are a sizable minority, but still a minority of the US population. People are not "cord cutting" and replacing their "cut" cord with the same stuff through OTT PPV or PTT SVOD, they are either "cutting" their cord because they don't use it in the first place, or because there are so many other things competing for their eyeball time that they don't really want to use it.

If anything the story is more things competing for people's eyeballs that aren't TV, not alternative ways to watch TV.



lessd said:


> Most people on this Forum have smart phones, my wife and I don't as we don't need one, My wife and I use simple flip phones, gets the job done for us at less than $16/per month with text and some data from* Page +* ...


Cost isn't an excuse when there are smartphone plans available for $7/mo that have at least a large subset of the functionality of a full blown postpaid service.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Then you're an extreme fringe case.


Accordingly to what study/statistics? You keep on saying this, when others keep on noting that they easily can use 4 tuners, or more, in a TiVo from OTA content.



> Right. But the people who don't value pay TV don't watch much TV in the first place, and they are a sizable minority, but still a minority of the US population. People are not "cord cutting" and replacing their "cut" cord with the same stuff through OTT PPV or PTT SVOD, they are either "cutting" their cord because they don't use it in the first place, or because there are so many other things competing for their eyeball time that they don't really want to use it.


And again, the survey/study in support of this? TiVo seems to disagree with many of your assumptions, in its marketing directed towards "cord-cutters."


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Cost isn't an excuse when there are smartphone plans available for $7/mo that have at least a large subset of the functionality of a full blown postpaid service.


Size and ease of use is one reason my wife and I use our old flip phones, + I can go about a week between charges with the extra big battery I put into the phone (and I can change the battery without prying the phone apart). If we ever need a smart phone I will get one.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Accordingly to what study/statistics? You keep on saying this, when others keep on noting that they easily can use 4 tuners, or more, in a TiVo from OTA content.


You're reading the TiVo forum. There are a lot of extreme cases around here.



> And again, the survey/study in support of this? TiVo seems to disagree with many of your assumptions, in its marketing directed towards "cord-cutters."


That's just my commentary based on what I've seen. I know a number of cord cutters and cord-nevers, and none of them are really interested in TV. They have other entertainment venues (in some cases, someone else's pay TV service in another location).


----------

