# Lost - 5/24 - Live together, die alone



## jkeegan

Ok, no one else created it, so here's the official thread..

10 minutes left in the episode..


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## MickeS

5 minutes until it starts here. 

I figured it was safe in this thread so far. 

Of course, I'm not going to start watching until after an hour into it, since I'll be watching the last hour of American Idol live first...


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## nataylor

Woah.


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## fireman18

WOW-----
What a show, got to watch it again


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## getbak

Damn...Too much to take in.

Our first glimpse of post-crash, off-island life.

September 22, 2004...Well, that answers _one_ question.


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## scheckeNYK

just tossing out a minor thing i noticed/heard. Libby (in Desmond's flashback) said her husband's name was David. Could that be Hurley's imaginary friend, Dave? So much other crazy stuff that it really makes this a minute point, but maybe it will lead to something. just food for thought.


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## nKhona

Wow!

I agree too much to take in right now...going to have to watch this one again.

I give this a +1 for a season finale.


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## Bierboy

AMAZING!!....saving this baby to watch several times


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## ireland967

A number of audio/video gaps on the HD feed here (and an annoying tstorm watch message the last half), but still the best season finale so far this year.

Wow


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## Sparty99

Officially the first Lost thread I will be paying attention to. Can't wait to see some of the feedback.


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## Ladd Morse

All I can say is:

"What the hell?"


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## jkeegan

Before it's poisoned by someone expressing dislike for the episode, let me say I loved it. It was so cool seeing Desmond's flashback (we predicted that at the beginning of the season! Who knew how long we'd have to wait)..

How cool is it that we'd already seen Kelvin!?

I think I'll start the rewatch before posting more..


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## mwhip

1st thing to decode...what was that look Jack gave? And did Kate's blink mean something?


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## Test

man, they left us with a lot of cliffhangers...

good ep


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## scheckeNYK

Michael and Walt are driving that boat straight into the mechanical shark. da dah. da dah. da duh. da duh.


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## cwoody222

Wow. I have to watch again. So glad I made my BF come over to watch in HD. The water and scenery looked amazing. But that was moot. The story? Wow!

Bed now. Talk here tomorrow.


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## scheckeNYK

kelvin was the officer from Sayid's episode, correct?


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## NatasNJ

From some spoilers I read prior I did read that new character and locations/areas will be shown next season. But no way was I expecting this. I was figuring another stupid hatch maybe. What I don't get is Penelope is searching for Desmond I gathered right? Well why would she be searching for a electromagnetic anomaly?


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## mwhip

scheckeNYK said:


> kelvin was the officer from Sayid's episode, correct?


Yes.

I think "the man" or whatever the others call him is Penelope's father. She knew to look for electromagnetic because of what her father does. Of course this explanation is wayyy to simple for this show.


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## JLWINE

Ladd Morse said:


> All I can say is:
> 
> "What the hell?"


Well, you almost took the words out of my mouth. However, I was thinking more like "What the f%#$"!!

Great season. A lot happened tonight--it will take some time to digest.


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## MikeMar

scheckeNYK said:


> kelvin was the officer from Sayid's episode, correct?


isn't he Kate's DAD too?


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## rizzlebizzle

So, a flight from Australia to LA, what part of the arctic would they fly over? That must be where this island is located. It must be being controlled through some major weather expirements and is located deep in the arctic not be found??

How the heck though could they have gotten desmond there if it is so cold.


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## JLWINE

mwhip said:


> Yes.
> 
> I think "the man" or whatever the others call him is Penelope's father. She knew to look for electromagnetic because of what her father does........


I think you are correct. At least that was my take as well.


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## davezatz

ireland967 said:


> A number of audio/video gaps on the HD feed here


Same here! The last minute or two were totally wiped... fortunately TiVo in the bedroom was recording in SD so I relocated for the end. Which I need to spend some time thinking about!


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## philw1776

Boring episode. Mostly filler. No new information.


OK, I'm kidding. 

Best season finale I can remember. I was totally absorbed for 2 solid hours. Much better than 24 which I liked but was vaguely disapointed by.
Glad to see Michael was found out. Not surprised to see Desmond arrive or Henry be the man. But totally surprised by the snowy ending. Desmond's girl was a megababe. Glad to see another live one on the show after Michael's slaughter.


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## billboard_NE

> 1st thing to decode...what was that look Jack gave? And did Kate's blink mean something?


Remeber Jack said he would not go in without a plan, maybe his plan was more than meeting Sayid at the beach.


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## MikeMar

mwhip said:


> Yes.
> 
> I think "the man" or whatever the others call him is Penelope's father. She knew to look for electromagnetic because of what her father does. Of course this explanation is wayyy to simple for this show.


must have missed it. When do the others call someone The Man?


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## Mike Wells

WOW.

So much to digest. I'll have to sleep on it.

I think I'll have to pick up "Bad Twin" - I hear it has lots of backstory.

And I'm hoping the ARG going on feeds some more information this summer. (yet another new site tonight - www.hansocareers.com . Wierd.)


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## Ladd Morse

mwhip said:


> 1st thing to decode...what was that look Jack gave? And did Kate's blink mean something?


Remember, Jack said he had a plan.


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## RegBarc

MikeMar said:


> isn't he Kate's DAD too?


I don't believe so. Kelvin is from an OGA (other government agency, most likely the CIA) while in Iraq, and Kate's dad is in the military (Army, I think). They two are shown together in one scene.


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## Ladd Morse

philw1776 said:


> Desmond's girl was a megababe.


Wasn't she the wife in the TV show Millenium?


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## lostinplace

Nice touch, how Desmond HUME and John LOCKE end up together in the hatch at the end.


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## MikeMar

RegBarc said:


> I don't believe so. Kelvin is from an OGA (other government agency, most likely the CIA) while in Iraq, and Kate's dad is in the military (Army, I think). They two are shown together in one scene.


That's probably what I was thinking.

Close enough


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## Ladd Morse

Lots of "WTH" moments tonight -- don't forget the foot of the giant statue on the shoreline. You know, the one with only four toes ...


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## MikeMar

Ladd Morse said:


> Lots of "WTH" moments tonight -- don't forget the foot of the giant statue on the shoreline. You know, the one with only four toes ...


Yeah, and that statue would have been HUGE!


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## betts4

Great show! I will be there next season for sure. 

This did answer a lot of questions...but in true LOST tradition, it kept you asking some too.

I loved the boat being from Libby to Desmond. That was great! And Desmond shaved and cleaned up looks sort of like Baltar. 

Desmond saying "don't tell me what I can do" - a play on the Locke line. 
Giving Michael the unloaded gun....in true Jack Bauer to Henderson style! Oh yeah!!

I am hoping something happens to the boat that Michael goes off on. What did they really want Walt for and will we ever learn that?


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## davezatz

rizzlebizzle said:


> what part of the arctic would they fly over? That must be where this island is located. It must be being controlled through some major weather expirements and is located deep in the arctic not be found??


That new website Hanso Careers has a job location in Iceland... Isn't it the antarctic that's down near Australia anyway?

(I emailed the career address [email protected] a couple of times. Haven't gotten any replies yet. Maybe I don't know enough about anger management.)


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## scheckeNYK

Ladd Morse said:


> Lots of "WTH" moments tonight -- don't forget the foot of the giant statue on the shoreline. You know, the one with only four toes ...


How many toes do primates have? Maybe this is like Planet of the Apes after all the apes die and the humans take the world back.


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## nKhona

<Male SOB=On>

Anyone catch the full on boob grab done to Kate by The Other behind her on the dock?

<Male SOB=Off>

Sorry ladies...I just could not resist mentioning that...IBIMB (4 or 5 times)

Any one with theories on Lock, Desmond, and Mr. Eko? I hope still around.


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## Ladd Morse

Another mystery answered and then made even more mysterious -- the giant magneto boom (or whatever).

and I loved how the doors to the hatch that were in the "primitive" village opened onto solid rock.


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## mwhip

MikeMar said:


> must have missed it. When do the others call someone The Man?


Henry Gale in the hatch was talking about "he", may be someone else can help me with this one.



Ladd Morse said:


> Remember, Jack said he had a plan.


So he thinks Sayid is coming? Too bad Sayid went back on the boat and the others were smart enough to give Michael a 2 finger plan. Maybe Sayid will run into Michael and they will go after him.

Anyone think Desmond and Locke are OK? Anyone think Locke hacked off the island and now can't walk again?


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## Michael S

betts4 said:


> I loved the boat being from Libby to Desmond. That was great!


I don't think that was Libby. She said the boat was Elizabeth. It was named after her.


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## betts4

The four toed foot. Isn't that like a Homer Simpson statue?


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## Skittles

rizzlebizzle said:


> So, a flight from Australia to LA, what part of the arctic would they fly over? That must be where this island is located. It must be being controlled through some major weather expirements and is located deep in the arctic not be found??
> 
> How the heck though could they have gotten desmond there if it is so cold.


Huh? Why are you thinking the island is in the arctic?  There's no information pointing in that direction... in fact, more than anything, tonight's episode practically out-and-out confirms that the island is exactly where we've been told, just a few hundred miles from Fiji.

What we saw at the end is likely a monitoring station, placed in the Antarctic. The lack of civilization (and the subsequent technology/EM waves that come as a result of large populations) make it an ideal place to monitor the planet for large EM disturbances.

Tonight's episode was VERY interesting. Will need to watch the last 30 minutes again to re-assess it. But for now, I do think Henry Gale is telling the truth, and that "The Hostiles" are actually not the villains in all of this, but are trying to find a way to stop the Dharma experiments.


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## terpfan1980

Michael S said:


> I don't think that was Libby. She said the boat was Elizabeth. It was named after her.


Libby, Liddy, and several other nicknames work for Elizabeths.


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## Carolat

Michael S said:


> I don't think that was Libby. She said the boat was Elizabeth. It was named after her.


Libby is a nickname for Elizabeth.


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## betts4

I am an Elizabeth that went by Libbi when I was a kid. It was our Lost Libby. Really. She was in the asylum with Hurley because she lost her husband and couldn't handle the grief. It makes sense.


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## Ereth

Michael S said:


> I don't think that was Libby. She said the boat was Elizabeth. It was named after her.


Libby is short for Elizabeth. It was definitely Libby.

One other thing that finally hit me tonight. Now we know why the Orientation film is on film in the Swan and videotape in the Pearl. The magnetism from the Swan would've erased the orientation tape had it been video.

Though I would think they'd have to degauss that Apple II monitor a few times, too.


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## betts4

We still don't know why Locke was in his wheelchair. That is one unanswered mystery.


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## Todd

Wow, this has got to be the craziest show I've ever watched. I love it!!!!!!!

:up:


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## Bierboy

nKhona said:


> ...Anyone catch the full on boob grab done to Kate by The Other behind her on the dock?...


Yes, as she was being lifted up to her feet....but it was by a female other...hmmm....


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## cmontyburns

Michael S said:


> I don't think that was Libby. She said the boat was Elizabeth. It was named after her.


Libby is a nickname for Elizabeth.


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## Michael S

betts4 said:


> I am an Elizabeth that went by Libbi when I was a kid. It was our Lost Libby. Really. She was in the asylum with Hurley because she lost her husband and couldn't handle the grief. It makes sense.


That makes sense. I just thought that wasn't Watros as Libby.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

scheckeNYK said:


> just tossing out a minor thing i noticed/heard. Libby (in Desmond's flashback) said her husband's name was David. Could that be Hurley's imaginary friend, Dave? So much other crazy stuff that it really makes this a minute point, but maybe it will lead to something. just food for thought.


You know, I thought the exact same thing.

Penny Widmore. Giant foot from ruined statue (why was I immediately reminded of Ozymandias -- well, except for that whole "four toes" thing!) Itchy fake beards (and fake hatches!) Violet skies. WAY too much to digest at the moment -- have to watch it again.

Tomorrow. ;D


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## betts4

Did anyone else laugh out loud when they saw the pile of pnuematic tubes? that was great!!!


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## jking

Great ep. Can't wait for next season. Locke got on my nerves a little. Everyone was supposed to indulge him when he wanted to push the button, but once he decided it was a hoax, he couldn't stand to let anyone else push it, no matter the consequences.

If he's alive, I can't wait for him to find out about the tubes with the notebooks going nowhere... but then again, he probably never will since no one tells anyone else anything on this island.

The foot statue really freaked me out. Wonder if it used to be a statue of Hanso or something? Although I don't know why he would have only had four toes.


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## MikeMar

Why did the guy ever need a fake beard? To make them think they are primative when they are really not?

Seems kinda minor and too much has been made out of it.


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## Ladd Morse

On a barely-related note, here's a You-Tube Link to a Jimmy Kimmel show fake commercial for the new men's fragrance "Hurley".


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## scheckeNYK

Ereth said:


> Libby is short for Elizabeth. It was definitely Libby.
> 
> One other thing that finally hit me tonight. Now we know why the Orientation film is on film in the Swan and videotape in the Pearl. The magnetism from the Swan would've erased the orientation tape had it been video.
> 
> Though I would think they'd have to degauss that Apple II monitor a few times, too.


thank you for the validation. i knew when i brought up that question that there was an actual reason behind it.



Spoiler



it also doubles as a theory on how Miles from 24 erased the tape (even though it was a chip), with Pres. Logan's confession. Seems like magnets erasing important stuff is a common theme this TV season



and also just to smeek myself, I'm quite certain that Libby's husband David and Hurley's imaginary friend Dave are the same person. I'm willing to bet they even talked about Dave(id) while in the psych ward together and that's where Hurley conjured him up from.


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## Ladd Morse

betts4 said:


> Did anyone else laugh out loud when they saw the pile of pnuematic tubes? that was great!!!


Yea, verily.


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## jking

Michael S said:


> That makes sense. I just thought that wasn't Watros as Libby.


Pretty sure it was Watros. It didn't look like her at first with the different hairdo, but I think her name was on the opening credits.


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## bdlucas

Michael S said:


> That makes sense. I just thought that wasn't Watros as Libby.


Her hair was different and she was made up to look younger, but how could you not recognize those eyes?


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## getbak

Ladd Morse said:
 

> On a barely-related note, here's a You-Tube Link to a Jimmy Kimmel show fake commercial for the new men's fragrance "Hurley".


Nice.

Speaking of Kimmel, one of his guests tonight is _"Hugh McIntyre from the HANSO Foundation"_. That should be ... interesting.


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## whoknows55

Wow. Just Wow.



I'm going to need to watch this again.


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## JMikeD

betts4 said:


> Did anyone else laugh out loud when they saw the pile of pnuematic tubes? that was great!!!


Yep. Scared the cats. 

Not only amusing, but answered some questions.


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## JadeWolf07

Did anyone catch the nod to The OC? Alan Dale from the show was on as Widmore, and the sailboat said "Newport Beach" on the back


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## eugene82

jkeegan said:


> Before it's poisoned by someone expressing dislike for the episode, let me say I loved it. It was so cool seeing Desmond's flashback (we predicted that at the beginning of the season! Who knew how long we'd have to wait)..
> 
> How cool is it that we'd already seen Kelvin!?
> 
> I think I'll start the rewatch before posting more..


I guess it was also cool when a thermonuclear incident took place having no effects on anyone.
It takes a fool to wath this show. JJ Abrams can bet his soul that tonight was the last time he fools me or makes an ass out of me.
The rest of you can keep bending over.


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## BeanMeScot

nKhona said:


> <Male SOB=On>
> 
> Anyone catch the full on boob grab done to Kate by The Other behind her on the dock?
> 
> <Male SOB=Off>
> 
> Sorry ladies...I just could not resist mentioning that...IBIMB (4 or 5 times)


Get over it. That was a woman (Alex, if I'm not mistaken) and she was trying to help Kate up. She was going to clasp her hands together to haul her up and turned her hand in a different direction to get better leverage. It was the top of the boob, not actual boob.

Now on to the important stuff. I had wondered why Hurley was part of the group. I would put him in the "good" category. The other 3 are definately more in the "bad" one. So they let Hurley go back.

I believe "the look" was part of a plan. We will see.

How stupid is it to have a Electronic Anomoly alarm that doesn't make any noise? And why wouldn't they have learned the "last time" that it needed to make noise?

It's interesting that even "The Others" didn't know what to do with Walt. "We got more than we bargained for when Walt joined us". Henry appears to be the number one Other. Interesting that Rousseau snagged him.

Do we know why Desmond was jailed? Did I miss that?

Libby must have gotten committed because of depression over her husband's death.

What was up with the Colossus statue? Was it what was left of the real Collosus?

Mr Friendly is Tom. Have we heard about a Tom before?


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## bdlucas

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Giant foot from ruined statue (why was I immediately reminded of Ozymandias


That thought crossed my mind. Also maybe some reference to the Colossus of Rhodes.


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## eugene82

scheckeNYK said:


> Michael and Walt are driving that boat straight into the mechanical shark. da dah. da dah. da duh. da duh.


It will be the justice he deserves.


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## scheckeNYK

eugene82 said:


> It will be the justice he deserves.


they've got room on that boat for one more.


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## philw1776

eugene82 said:


> I guess it was also cool when a thermonuclear incident took place having no effects on anyone.
> It takes a fool to wath this show. JJ Abrams can bet his soul that tonight was the last time he fools me or makes an ass out of me.
> The rest of you can keep bending over.


Bye!
But my bet is that you keep commenting.


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## Jeeters

ireland967 said:


> A number of audio/video gaps on the HD feed here (and an annoying tstorm watch message the last half), but still the best season finale so far this year.


Seems my local affiliate was getting (or outputing) a bad analog feed from ABC. About 30 minutes in, the audio got all 'warbly' for lack of a better description. Sounds like everbody was talking underwater or something. Don't think it was cable related - when local news affilate cut in with a promo during commerical break, they sounded perfectly fine, but then back to warbling on the network promo commercial that followed.

Annoying as heck. Decided to wait for bittorrent before watching the rest of the finale.


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## canyonero!

eugene82 said:


> I guess it was also cool when a thermonuclear incident took place having no effects on anyone.
> It takes a fool to wath this show. JJ Abrams can bet his soul that tonight was the last time he fools me or makes an ass out of me.
> The rest of you can keep bending over.


  
At least we can relax through the whole summer, know it was a thermonuclear incident, and nothing more or less.

Instead of thread-crapping, how about you just stop watching shows that make you feel like you're being screwed (literally?!) just to tune in.

Repeat after me: "It's a television show".

Anyway, great season finale.


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## eugene82

Ladd Morse said:


> Wasn't she the wife in the TV show Millenium?


Not Megan Gallanger by any means.


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## vickerto

Just a thought about the guys monitoring the signal that called Penelope at the end. Couldn't this be a signal from a transmitter on the boat and have nothing to do with any EM anomaly? They said, 'I think we found it'. I thought they were talking about the boat...


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## BeanMeScot

eugene82 said:


> I guess it was also cool when a thermonuclear incident took place having no effects on anyone.
> It takes a fool to wath this show. JJ Abrams can bet his soul that tonight was the last time he fools me or makes an ass out of me.
> The rest of you can keep bending over.


Who said it was "thermonuclear"? From everything I have seen, it is electromagnetic. That doesn't create radiation. If you don't enjoy it, good riddance but quit thread crapping.


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## bdlucas

So Desmond sailed due west at nine knots and expected to reach Fiji in less than a week - that gives us a pretty good location for the island.

But in fact he ended up back where he started, so we can suppose he sailed in a circle. The speed of nine knots and the length of time he was gone give us the circumference of the circle. If he thought he was sailing due west the whole time, presumably according to his magnetic compass, that tells us the magnetic anomaly that throws the compass off must be at the center of that circle, which tells us how far the magnetic anomaly is from the island.

Now when Michael sails at a compas heading of 325 degrees, he should be following a spiral relative to the center of the same circle. Where will that put him?

Maybe this weekend if I'm bored I'll try running the numbers


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## philw1776

Loved the whole 2 hours. My only disapointments were that I didn't get to see Sayid go all Jack Bauer over The Others and that Henry didn't fill perfidious numbnuts Michael with the hot lead he'd so dearly earned. Oh, and that somehow Kate didn't get disrobed.


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## BeanMeScot

vickerto said:


> Just a thought about the guys monitoring the signal that called Penelope at the end. Couldn't this be a signal from a transmitter on the boat and have nothing to do with any EM anomaly? They said, 'I think we found it'. I thought they were talking about the boat...


The monitor said it was an EM anomaly.


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## scheckeNYK

bdlucas said:


> Now when Michael sails at a compas heading of 325 degrees, he should be following a spiral relative to the center of the same circle. Where will that put him?


in the mouth of the mechanical shark! maybe they will swim for it and find the underwater hatch.


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## philw1776

bdlucas said:


> So Desmond sailed due west at nine knots and expected to reach Fiji in less than a week - that gives us a pretty good location for the island.
> 
> But in fact he ended up back where he started, so we can suppose he sailed in a circle. The speed of nine knots and the length of time he was gone give us the circumference of the circle. If he thought he was sailing due west the whole time, presumably according to his magnetic compass, that tells us the magnetic anomaly that throws the compass off must be at the center of that circle, which tells us how far the magnetic anomaly is from the island.
> 
> Now when Michael sails at a compas heading of 325 degrees, he should be following a spiral relative to the center of the same circle. Where will that put him?
> 
> Maybe this weekend if I'm bored I'll try running the numbers


Well not to be a nitpicker but the sun and the stars also indicate direction. Only a mo-ron (or its equivalent, a Hollywood writer) would blithely follow a compass that was contraindicated by basic celestial markers.


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## vickerto

BeanMeScot said:


> The monitor said it was an EM anomaly.


Ha, well that solves that now doesn't it


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## mojomom

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> You know, I thought the exact same thing.
> 
> Penny Widmore. Giant foot from ruined statue (why was I immediately reminded of Ozymandias -- well, except for that whole "four toes" thing!) Itchy fake beards (and fake hatches!) Violet skies. WAY too much to digest at the moment -- have to watch it again.
> 
> Tomorrow. ;D


Love the Ozymandias reference. Wish I'd posted it first! Everyone should go read the poem if you don't know it. Lost makes me wish I'd paid more attention in English class.

What's really up with Libby? Does anyone else think she was a plant to meet Desmond and give him the boat? It all seemed so contrived. I can't shake the idea that she was working for Mr. Widmore to get Desmond in the race. Do we know who Widmore is? Is he part of the known Hanso foundation or Dharma initiative? I think Widmore put Desmond on the island on purpose.

I think Libby is in on the longest con of all. I know this logically makes no sense since she was on flight 815 when it crashed and is also now shot (by mistake). But she really seemd like a mysteriously pointless or pointlessly mysterious character unless there is more to her than we know.


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## scheckeNYK

how can you follow a compass when there's all this crazy electromagnetism going on. won't that break the compass or render incorrect info?


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## bdlucas

eugene82 said:


> .


Did somebody say something?


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## BeanMeScot

vickerto said:


> Ha, well that solves that now doesn't it


Pretty much...


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## bdlucas

scheckeNYK said:


> how can you follow a compass when there's all this crazy electromagnetism going on. won't that break the compass or render incorrect info?


Presumably that's why Desmond sailed in a big circle.


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## JMikeD

BeanMeScot said:


> Who said it was "thermonuclear"? From everything I have seen, it is electromagnetic. That doesn't create radiation.


Umm, actually it does. It's electromagnetic radiation, not nuclear, but it is radiation.


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## ThreeSoFar

So is the show finally over? Please?

OMG, this show sucks.


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## ThreeSoFar

Sorry, I meant the series. Please, put it out of our misery.

Horrible.


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## dswallow

scheckeNYK said:


> how can you follow a compass when there's all this crazy electromagnetism going on. won't that break the compass or render incorrect info?


A GPS compass wouldn't necessarily be affected...


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## BeanMeScot

JMikeD said:


> Umm, actually it does. It's electromagnetic radiation, not nuclear, but it is radiation.


It's not deadly radiation (well not that we know for sure)


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## jkeegan

Some thoughts during my rewatch:

* Thought it weird that they thought to swim out to the boat rather than wait for it to come closer, but in retrospect I guess it was a good idea.

* Liked how we heard music coming from within the boat - felt like the Make Your Own Kind of Music scene from the first episode of the season.

* I like that they solidified the idea that they're stuck in a snowD-globe, with no outside world, in the very same episode that they show us the outside world again for the first time.

* Well that settles it - the writers weren't lying to us - this isn't purgatory, or a holodeck. I half expected to see everything was a simulation and it all stopped when Desmond went to turn the key.

* Doesn't Desmond's girlfriend's father look like Alvar Hanso a bit? (well, at least the white hair).. Then again so did Locke's dad, a bit.

* Maybe Pen is looking for Desmond because she thinks her father deliberately crashed him somewhere.. but again, as was asked earlier in this thread - how the hell did she know to look for a magnetic anomaly?

..building on an idea someone else started, what if the others (Gale, etc) aren't Dharma - they're anti-Dharma activists that found their way to the facility, and want to save people that are being used in human tests.. They look for the "good" ones of them and save them..

* I seriously hope that at the end of the entire show we get some cool satisfying answer for how everyone happens to know everyone else.. They _throw that in our face_! Libby's boat goes to Desmond.. Hey, Libby was married.. maybe her husband's death is what put her in the institution? I wonder how many times on the island she thought "AND I OWNED A GODDAMNED BOAT!!!! I COULD USE THAT RIGHT ABOUT NOW!!". 

* Sayid should have had more of a plan than going in alone.. (even with Sun and Jin as a bonus)..

* If Locke did survive, strangely enough, he did escape being a slave.. there's no more reason to push the button.. it just took Desmond's sacrifice to make it happen. (and Pen's looking for him! oh!).. Maybe Desmond/Eko/Locke are somehow all ok after all?

* Didn't anyone else expect Walt to see Jack, Sawyer, and Kate bound, and then turn to his dad and say something like "What did you do??!"

* Missed that he wanted 42 thousand dollars for the boat (missed the #).. That's also after she gave him 4 for coffee.

* When the writers said they had a way of dealing with Walt's actor's age change, I was afraid they'd do something weak like say he was in an aging chamber or something.. now maybe it looks like it was easier to have him and Michael just go away forever?

* I half expected to see Danielle jump out when they were at the dock, or shoot someone.. At least they mentioned her when Sawyer almost set off the trap.

* WHAT was with the bird that swooped down and said Hurrlllleeeyyyy...??

* Charlie seemed to enjoy torturing Locke when he caught him crying..

* So why would Kelvin keep drawing that invisible map that the guy before him had started? To draw the map, one of them had to know about the ? station, right? (they might not know it was called Pearl). Why'd they start the map in the first place? The idea itself seemed improvised, since it involved faking a lockdown, catching the door, and walking under it..

Posting now so I don't lose all that in a power outage or something..


----------



## mojomom

Widmore and Hanso....found this reference
http://www.widmoregroup.com/corporate.htm

Which shows that Anthony B. Cooper, Locke's Dad, is on the board of the Widmore Group. So is Hugh McIntyre, who is the communications director of the Hanso Foundation and wrote to dismiss the "false information" about Hanso in Bad Twin. Arthur Widmore is the President and CEO but his photo is just a "?"

Okay, so Widmore is connected to Hanso, Hanso and Dharma are behind the experiments on the island, and Desmond, who Widmore wanted to get rid of, is on the island. Locke and Libby are on the plane that crashes on the island...plus others with direct or indirect connections with the dude in the Hatch (Sayid....Kate....). Desmond's "system failure" occurred just as the plane was flying over the island, crashing it on the island. How much of this is truly engineered by Hanso, how much is a "higher power" or fate? Methinks the sins of the fathers (Hanso) are being visited on the children on the plane. Karma.

And what the heck is the relationship between the Others and Dharma/Hanso?

Glad to know the rest of the world is still there, in any case. I thought that when the hatch blew that was going to be the end of everything.


----------



## BeanMeScot

eugene82 said:


> /
> 
> You have your head up your ass if you think I'll be back for one of the weakest, and dumbest shows in all of TV history.


And we should care... why?...


----------



## jkeegan

betts4 said:


> Did anyone else laugh out loud when they saw the pile of pnuematic tubes? that was great!!!


Grr.. saw that in last week's preview.


----------



## BeanMeScot

I laughed at the tubes as well. Jack now has John's drawing of the island and the assorted hatches.


----------



## stalemate

lostinplace said:


> Nice touch, how Desmond HUME and John LOCKE end up together in the hatch at the end.


Because of Desmond's accent, I could never decide if the guy who was originally in the hatch with Desmond was named Kelvin or Calvin.

If it was Calvin, it would be Hume and Calvin in the hatch, and then Hume and Locke in the hatch. Funny.


----------



## jkeegan

eugene82 said:


> I guess it was also cool when a thermonuclear incident took place having no effects on anyone.
> It takes a fool to wath this show. JJ Abrams can bet his soul that tonight was the last time he fools me or makes an ass out of me.
> The rest of you can keep bending over.


Yep, now I'm convinced you're just trolling (as was suggested in last week's thread).

If not, then please live up to your promise and keep your antisocial, negative, paragraph-impaired self away from our threads. Thanks Eugene.


----------



## A.C.

MikeMar said:


> isn't he Kate's DAD too?


There were two guys in that episode. The first was Kelvin, the covert agent type, then the guy that drove Siad into the desert and dropped him off. That was Kate's Dad.


----------



## RobertE

mojomom said:


> Methinks the sins of the fathers (Hanso) are being visited on the children on the plane. Karma.


Now we just need a couple of new characters. Earl, Randy & Catalina.


----------



## NYDR27

My thoughts on the episode...

Awesome episode. Many questions somewhat answered, but many more left to answer. A true Lost hallmark.

First of all, I think there's more to how that Oceanic flight fell out of the sky. In tonight's episode, Desmond said he let the count hit zero and the electromagnetism caused the plane to crash. But if that's true, then why were there Oceanic toy planes on that crib we saw in that episode where we find out what happened to claire when she went missing for 2 weeks. They must have known in advance that the plane was going to crash.

Also, I think that John Locke and Ecko are still alive. Desmond said that he had to sacrifice his life to save another because John basically saved his life when he found the hatch. So it's basically one life in exchange for the other. Besides, don't you think that Charlie would have said something at the end of the episode if he saw John and Ecko die? Admittedly, he was acting strange, but he was still able to have some normal interaction with Claire.

I can't wait until next season. Does anyone know when it will start again?


----------



## BriGuy20

OMGOMGOMGOMG!!!  

So many good moments. The finale is why I watch Lost and suffer through the bad weeks. Lots of great revelations, but they left just enough unanswered that it keeps things interesting but not annoying.


----------



## madscientist

Most excellent finale in a long time!
No more button pushing next season... yay!
Amazingly well done connection with the plane crashing: completely did not expect it, yet it tied in very well in retrospect! Somehow I thought that Desmond had been alone for longer than 40-odd days.
So, Locke, Desmond, and Eko are back in the hatch--dead? Trapped? Unconscious? Or... ?
What's up with Charlie; he doesn't even seem to care where the other three are, or that they might be hurt, or anything. Plus he's acting pretty odd. And no one on the beach is trying to find out what happened at the hatch?
I doubt the Others are intending Michael and Walt to die: if they wanted to kill them why not just do it; as it is they'll lose the boat.
If the Others picked the "bad ones", what's Jack doing with Kate and Sawyer? As far as we know he's never killed anyone... ?
The Others didn't seem too concerned about the whole sky turning a weird color and everything.
Hard to imagine what kind of plan Jack and Kate could possibly have: it's pretty clear no one is following to help them, and they sure don't look like they can help themselves.


----------



## hefe

eugene82 said:


> I guess it was also cool when a thermonuclear incident took place having no effects on anyone.
> It takes a fool to wath this show. JJ Abrams can bet his soul that tonight was the last time he fools me or makes an ass out of me.
> The rest of you can keep bending over.


Like I said last week when you made essentially the same rant, I look forward to you going through with your threat.


----------



## emandbri

betts4 said:


> And Desmond shaved and cleaned up looks sort of like Baltar.


I thought so too!

What a cool episode! I don't have much to add except I do wonder about the whole boat thing with Libby, I mean who meets a stranger and gives them an expensive boat?

Emily


----------



## Chapper1

betts4 said:


> Did anyone else laugh out loud when they saw the pile of pnuematic tubes? that was great!!!


That part reminded me of the movie "Being John Malkovich"


----------



## jkeegan

A.C. said:


> There were two guys in that episode. The first was Kelvin, the covert agent type, then the guy that drove Siad into the desert and dropped him off. That was Kate's Dad.


Well, actually, no.. close..

Kelvin was the one that gave Sayid the money at the very end, when they dropped him off. During the drive out there though, Sayid sat next to Kate's dad.


----------



## hefe

I just have to say... *(##( ($ #^%@!# #&@#@ *&#$%!!!!!!!!

In nearly 6 years with a TiVo, I've had only a couple times where a show I watched had significant glitches...weather related stuff. So tonight, as the big Finale starts, the sky opens up, lightning, thunder, wind, it's like someone forgot to push the frickin' button!!!

All throughout the show, I endured significant signal loss and gaps in the recording. Entire scenes lost. And then, about 5 minutes until the first hour was up, we had our power go out for a few minutes. And then the interminably long wait when it came back on for the damn TiVos to reboot. Do you know that on the DirecTv models, you have to wait for it to collect satellite signal for the boot process to finish? Of course, when the rain is coming down in sheets, it's tough for that to happen, so I lost an extra 10 minutes or so.

AAAARRRGGHHHH!!!!!!

(But I saw enough to get the gist, anyway)

BTW, the subtitling said that the guys at the end were speaking Portugese, for what it's worth.

Also, recall the Widmore name from a couple places...

1. Widmore Construction sign on the Battersea Power Station in London.
2. Widmore was the name on Sun's pregnancy test.


----------



## JMikeD

jkeegan said:


> Some thoughts during my rewatch:
> 
> * Thought it weird that they thought to swim out to the boat rather than wait for it to come closer, but in retrospect I guess it was a good idea.


That boat probably has a 10-15 foot draft. The water looks relatively shallow in that area, and it can't get too close to shore without running aground. But most of the characters probably wouldn't know that. Desmond wasn't paying much attention to where he was going, for sure.


----------



## gregmdusa

I had a couple of thoughts about the season finale. 

I thought the ending was a weak repeat of last year's finale. 

I didn't see it mentioned, but wasn't Kelvin the guy who dropped Sayed off, after torturing his commanding officer? I believe he didn't have the beard in Sayed's flashback, but I could be wrong. 

He wasn't military (CIA Spook), but it was definitely him. 

Greg


----------



## JMikeD

hefe said:


> And then, about 5 minutes until the first hour was up, we had our power go out for a few minutes. And then the interminably long wait when it came back on for the damn TiVos to reboot. Do you know that on the DirecTv models, you have to wait for it to collect satellite signal for the boot process to finish? Of course, when the rain is coming down in sheets, it's tough for that to happen, so I lost an extra 10 minutes or so.


An inexpensive ($60) UPS will fix the power problem, but it won't do anything about the signal loss, unfortunately. I've had my power go out for almost an hour, and didn't lose any of the program that was being recorded.


----------



## Kamakzie

Wow just wow! So do you guys and gals think Desmond bit the big one?


----------



## hefe

JMikeD said:


> An inexpensive ($60) UPS will fix the power problem, but it won't do anything about the signal loss, unfortunately. I've had my power go out for almost an hour, and didn't lose any of the program that was being recorded.


My computer is on one. When the power went out, I shut down the PC and took the UPS over to the TiVo. It just took forever, it seemed, to reboot. I've thought about having one for the TiVo, I just never even had any close calls in years, so I got complacent.


----------



## mqpickles

Kamakzie said:


> Wow just wow! So do you guys and gals think Desmond bit the big one?


Yes.


----------



## naybag

We are do glad to FINALLY have some answers. This show went from me not caring about it at all last week, to me reading the discussion boards. 

I love that they tied the plane crash to the electromagnetic failure. You have to appreciate the forethought that went into the story line.

Questions: 
Were the guys at the end speaking Russian?
Remember the polar bear on the island in season 1? Is the polar bear related to the snowy scene at the end?
How much of the story did the writing staff have written before the 1st show aired? Do you think they added filler in seasons 1 and 2 to allow themselves to come full circle?
Where are the monsters that were attacking people early on?
Why did the other want Walt?
Who thinks that the "plan" that Jack came up with now includes Michael?

Ok, so I still have more questions than answers!!!!!!!! Arggghh. I ned to be _LOST_ again.


----------



## Fraser+Dief

scheckeNYK said:


> kelvin was the officer from Sayid's episode, correct?


That was supposed to be a surprise? I recognised him immediately when we first saw that episode however many months ago. The two characters eyes were very distinctive. So much so, I suspected he had one fake eye, but nothing more has come of that.

Loved how the map got on the wall. Why is the obvious question.


----------



## hefe

naybag said:


> Were the guys at the end speaking Russian?


As I mentioned about 7 posts ago, it was Portugese.


----------



## DUSlider

> And then, about 5 minutes until the first hour was up, we had our power go out for a few minutes. And then the interminably long wait when it came back on for the damn TiVos to reboot. Do you know that on the DirecTv models, you have to wait for it to collect satellite signal for the boot process to finish? Of course, when the rain is coming down in sheets, it's tough for that to happen, so I lost an extra 10 minutes or so.


This is why I have a UPS (Battery Backup) with AVR technology for my Tivo and Digitral Cable box.

Remember, for anyone that missed it, you can go to ABC.com to watch the finale, should be up tomorrow or Friday.

I was weirded out the most by Charlie at the end and how he was acting. Definately a great season finale and as most others already said, left me with a WTF! feeling. Will watch it again tomorrow.


----------



## hefe

Fraser+Dief said:


> That was supposed to be a surprise? I recognised him immediately when we first saw that episode however many months ago. The two characters eyes were very distinctive. So much so, I suspected he had one fake eye, but nothing more has come of that.
> 
> Loved how the map got on the wall. Why is the obvious question.


Not quite sure what you mean here. Tonight is the first time we saw Kelvin, isn't it?


----------



## naybag

One more question! What was the deal with Charlie at the end? He was acting so strangely. Any theories?


----------



## drew2k

betts4 said:


> Did anyone else laugh out loud when they saw the pile of pnuematic tubes? that was great!!!


I laughed out loud when Locke said to Eko, as the hatch was crumbling around them, "I was wrong."


----------



## mqpickles

"We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe!" was my favorite line of the night. 

It seemed like a small nod to the fans, like the producers saying, "Stay with us here. We're not going to cop out and rip off St. Elsewhere or any other show you've seen before."

Next favorite line was probably John Locke saying, "I was wrong." Ya' think?


----------



## naybag

hefe said:


> As I mentioned about 7 posts ago, it was Portugese.


 Ah! I missed that one. Thanks. Although, that doesn't help me with any theories.


----------



## naybag

drew2k said:


> I laughed out loud when Locke said to Eko, as the hatch was crumbling around them, "I was wrong."


I personally found Sayeed's reaction the the foot statue hilarious. FOUR TOES?


----------



## mqpickles

hefe said:


> Not quite sure what you mean here. Tonight is the first time we saw Kelvin, isn't it?


No, he was in the episode where the Americans had Sayid engage in torture. IIRC, Kelvin (didn't know his name then) was the one who put him up to it and gave him the tool box.

Clancy Brown's name came on the opening credits, and I recognized that immediately. Brother Justin from Carnivale. Also doing the voiceovers on the Honda Ridgeline ads these days.


----------



## drew2k

Just a great episode all the way around. 

My take on the exchange between Kate and Jack at the end: she was telling him she loved him, and Sawyer caught on. 

I'm sure Desmond is dead - he sacrificed his life for the others. Not sure about Eko, but I'd bet Locke survived based on what Desmond said. 

Only gripe, I noticed Bernard, but no Rose. Bernard without Rose is like watching Lost without having questions. 

And oh yeah ... STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS! Why even bother replying? It's what they want, so don't give them what they want!


----------



## hanumang

Fraser+Dief said:


> That was supposed to be a surprise? I recognised him immediately when we first saw that episode however many months ago.


The surprise is supposed to be that the character we know formerly as only _Inman_ (from Sayid's last episode) is in fact _Kelvin Inman._ If you mean something else by your question, sorry, don't know what to say.

But of course that dude is easy to recognize, he's the Kurgan!


----------



## hc130radio

Anyone catch "Let's Roll" when the group started their journey to find "The Others"?


----------



## hanumang

naybag said:


> One more question! What was the deal with Charlie at the end? He was acting so strangely. Any theories?


Some dudes get like that when a cute girl smiles at them. Outside of that, I dunno.


----------



## hefe

mqpickles said:


> No, he was in the episode where the Americans had Sayid engage in torture. IIRC, Kelvin (didn't know his name then) was the one who put him up to it and gave him the tool box.
> 
> Clancy Brown's name came on the opening credits, and I recognized that immediately. Brother Justin from Carnivale. Also doing the voiceovers on the Honda Ridgeline ads these days.


That's what I mean...the first time we knew HE was Kelvin. I remember him from the other episode. I didn't understand what you meant in your previous post because you made it sound like you knew he would be Kelvin.


----------



## mqpickles

drew2k said:


> My take on the exchange between Kate and Jack at the end: she was telling him she loved him, and Sawyer caught on.


Like she nonverbally said, "I love you," and he nonverbally replied, "I know." Maybe Kate and Sawyer will turn out to be twins.


----------



## Hidden Force

getbak said:


> September 22, 2004...Well, that answers _one_ question.


Actually, you can see that information on the oceanic-air.com site, which also says that it departed Sydney at 14:55 and was scheduled to arrive at LAX at 10:42. If you look at the seating chart for Oceanic 815, you can see where a lot of the characters were seated. (Also note the "Travellers" section at the bottom of the front page. )


Spoiler



(BTW, has anyone figured out the "Pre-board Check-in" thing with "E T H A N R O M" above some boxes? Since Ethan was an Other, why is his name connected to the flight?)


----------



## vertigo235

Can't wait till next seasons Finale, that's probably how long we'll have to wait to get more answers!


----------



## appleye1

hefe said:


> As I mentioned about 7 posts ago, it was Portugese.


Hmmm, Brazil (official language Portuguese) has a research station on King George Island in Antartica


----------



## mqpickles

hefe said:


> That's what I mean...the first time we knew HE was Kelvin. I remember him from the other episode. I didn't understand what you meant in your previous post because you made it sound like you knew he would be Kelvin.


Okay, gotcha. (Except I did't post about Kelvin/Clancy in a previous post, so maybe you're thinking of someone else.) I thought it was pretty bizarre that Hefe wouldn't have recognized that guy.

I absolutely did not expect Clancy to turn out to be Kelvin. Great twist.


----------



## hefe

mqpickles said:


> Okay, gotcha. (Except I did't post about Kelvin/Clancy in a previous post, so maybe you're thinking of someone else.)


Oh, yeah, that wasn't you in the original post I responded to, but once you responded to me, I thought it was part of the same exchange...


----------



## jkeegan

* What if Libby didn't really have a husband named David? What if she's crazy, but has lots of money (she broke out of the institution and stole some doctor's money).. Now she's happily giving it away to guys for coffee, then giving them a boat.. She comes up with a lie/story, and goes with the name David because she heard Hurley say it multiple times (that last part has already been suggested)

* I loved the look on Desmond's face when Locke told him that he'd been at the top of the hatch on the day that Boone died, and that he saw a light. I also loved the flashback after that, and that it turns out that Locke himself was doing the saving, there.. Anyone watching Season 1 over again someday will see that scene very differently now. 

* Re: Penny looking for Desmond at the end (via the artic guys): earlier in the show she said "I have a lot of money, Desmond. With enough money and determination you can find anyone."

* Penny says "Desmond what are you running from?" in the scene chronologically right before he tells Jack "you look like you're running from the devil" - nice consistency (put the phrase in his mind)

* So Kelvin didn't know who "him" was either.. Question: Is this the same "him" that we're talking about when we talk about Henry's group? At first I thought Henry's group was against Dharma, but I'll correct myself on that one right now - the beards were Dharma issue.. So if Kelvin was Dharma, maybe he was waiting for Henry? Or someone above Henry? That he talked to via the Apple II?

* Locke: "I'm more sure about this than anything in my entire life.".. Wow, that's gotta hurt (if he's still alive). At least maybe he could console himself with a big loud "TOLD YOU SO" to Jack if he ever sees him again.

* When Kelvin is dragging Desmond back to the hatch from the beach, a 44 minutes into the episode, there's a frame where Desmond is looking up, and the trees above him are superimposed on the shot, and there's this structure up in the trees.. Nothing terribly obvious or profound, but it definitely looks out of place.. almost like part of a plane or something, if the time had lined up.

* Back when I thought that there was no outside world (earlier in the episode), after Desmond made the snow-globe comment, I had a thought about Sayid using the black smoke.. (I don't believe this, but the thought crossed my mind): What if they're in a snow-globe wrap-around world not only with distance, but with time, and everything's on a loop.. what if the black smoke Sayid lit today is what Danielle saw years and years ago? But now that we've seen the end, we're more grounded on "this is earth" (thankfully).

* Note how Kelvin _specifically_ told Desmond to put the Orientation film back _behind The Turn of the Screw_. The fact that they showed us that makes me wonder if it was a deliberate intention of the authors of the film to put it there, rather than it just happening to be there as opposed to "on the shelf".

* Kelvin Inman.. Where do I remember the name Inman(sp?) from? Had he said his last name in the Sayid flashback?

* So when Jack had Desmond at gunpoint and demanded he tell us the whole story, Desmond said his thing, then Kelvin died, and he was all alone. THE END... Right? Couldn't he have also mentioned "oh, and one time, I didn't enter the code in time - and knives and metal was flying all across the room - so, you know, we do want to keep pressing this button!"

* Again, the ever present questions (amongst seeming answers): The plane crashed accidentally because of Desmond's random actions that day, right? (HE decided to go follow and fight). Yet Henry's group knows people's names. Either they're in touch with Oceanic airlines for a flight list, or they put people on that plane and they crashed coincidentally because of Desmond.. Or Desmond was set up to think it was because of him?

Too tired to finish now. More tomorrow.


----------



## jkeegan

Hey.. so it turns out that when Jack says "you know I wouldn't have brought you out here without a plan", the scene ends with Sawyer saying "What plan?" and then a scene change.. That heavily implies that Jack filled them in on the plan right then and there.. (I'd even say, possibly including filling in Michael). Maybe we'll find out later that they decided to work together against the others (even involving Michael), and that has something to do with the final head nod between Jack/Kate etc.


----------



## mqpickles

jkeegan said:


> * What if Libby didn't really have a husband named David? What if she's crazy, but has lots of money (she broke out of the institution and stole some doctor's money).. Now she's happily giving it away to guys for coffee, then giving them a boat.. She comes up with a lie/story, and goes with the name David because she heard Hurley say it multiple times (that last part has already been suggested)


Can't remember how we put it together, but my husband and I interpreted the time line to be such that she would have met Desmond before her institutionalization. If that's the case, then Hurley could have invented a Dave because of hearing Libby mentioning her deceased husband's name in group therapy or whatever.


----------



## hanumang

jkeegan said:


> * What if Libby didn't really have a husband named David? What if she's crazy, but has lots of money (she broke out of the institution and stole some doctor's money).. Now she's happily giving it away to guys for coffee, then giving them a boat.. She comes up with a lie/story, and goes with the name David because she heard Hurley say it multiple times (that last part has already been suggested)


This is an interesting theory, but, unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't quite vibe with the timeline that's been established. The Desmond & Libby meeting was what, 2001 (or earlier)? By all accounts, Hurley wasn't in the mental hospital all that long, or that long ago, for the Libby and Hurley connection to work.

Also, I'm not totally buying the 'plane crashed because of Desmond didn't enter the numbers' thing. That smells like misdirection to me.


----------



## TR7spyder

nKhona said:


> <Male SOB=On>
> 
> Anyone catch the full on boob grab done to Kate by The Other behind her on the dock?
> 
> <Male SOB=Off>
> 
> Sorry ladies...I just could not resist mentioning that...IBIMB (4 or 5 times)
> 
> Any one with theories on Lock, Desmond, and Mr. Eko? I hope still around.


It was Alex, who did it  . I even pointed this out to my wife and backed up to show it to her, she couldn't understand how I noticed it . Women 

Weren't we were supposed to find out more abut Libby and Herley connection?


----------



## lordargent

philw1776 said:


> But totally surprised by the snowy ending


I thought it was a commercial, I was about to go watch something else.


----------



## Jeeters

RegBarc said:


> Kelvin is from an OGA (other government agency, most likely the CIA) while in Iraq, and Kate's dad is in the military (Army, I think). They two are shown together in one scene.


Actually, in those Iraq flashbacks he was dressed the way Delta Force operatives usually prefer to dress - civilian clothes making them look like they're ready for a safari in the desert. But yeah, he's not Kate's dad as established in the other posts.



Skittles said:


> What we saw at the end is likely a monitoring station, placed in the Antarctic. The lack of civilization (and the subsequent technology/EM waves that come as a result of large populations) make it an ideal place to monitor the planet for large EM disturbances.


When I first saw those guys in the Antarctic station, I thought they were going to discover that the magnetic poles had shifted or something which would be a major catastrophe to the planet. Alas, they made the phone call to Penelope so that theory was quickly debunked. Strangely, I found the phone call much more intriguing and fascinating than a shifting of the Earth's poles!



bdlucas said:


> Presumably that's why Desmond sailed in a big circle.


I would think there's more to his big circle than haywire compass readings. He'd surely notice the sun and stars weren't right for the direction his compass told him he was going.



jkeegan said:


> Doesn't Desmond's girlfriend's father look like Alvar Hanso a bit? (well, at least the white hair).. Then again so did Locke's dad, a bit.


I thought he looked more like Caleb Nichol from "The O.C." 



> Maybe Pen is looking for Desmond because she thinks her father deliberately crashed him somewhere.. but again, as was asked earlier in this thread - how the hell did she know to look for a magnetic anomaly?


I don't think she's looking for Desmond. I bet the fact that he's related to the anamoly is just another coincidental connection that these people keep having.



> ..building on an idea someone else started, what if the others (Gale, etc) aren't Dharma - they're anti-Dharma activists that found their way to the facility, and want to save people that are being used in human tests.. They look for the "good" ones of them and save them..


I agree. I think the beginning of the next season will have The Others revealing to Jack, Kate, and Sawyer that they need those three to help them. They probably need to leave the other people on the island alone so as to not disturb the experiments too much to cause Dharma to notice.



mqpickles said:


> Clancy Brown's name came on the opening credits, and I recognized that immediately. Brother Justin from Carnivale. Also doing the voiceovers on the Honda Ridgeline ads these days.


He'll always be the Kurgen from "Highlander" to me.



naybag said:


> One more question! What was the deal with Charlie at the end? He was acting so strangely. Any theories?


Yeah, he was definitely acting odd. He was acting the way he does when he's trying to deny his drug problem. Not that I'm saying he went and found some heroin; just that he's acting that way... i.e., when he's trying to deny it, he just acts as if everything is hunky dory and there's not a problem in the world. So I think he's just trying to cover up either the severity of what happened at the hatch and/or some aftermath in the hatch that we don't yet know about.


----------



## MickeS

eugene82 said:


> I guess it was also cool when a thermonuclear incident took place having no effects on anyone.
> It takes a fool to wath this show. JJ Abrams can bet his soul that tonight was the last time he fools me or makes an ass out of me.
> The rest of you can keep bending over.


 You're an idiot.


----------



## rhuntington3

betts4 said:


> Did anyone else laugh out loud when they saw the pile of pnuematic tubes? that was great!!!


That was crazy! I was wondering what the big pile was... Wow!


----------



## MickeS

ThreeSoFar said:


> Sorry, I meant the series. Please, put it out of our misery.


If only there was a way to not record it, have the TV on at that channel when "Lost" is on, or walk away from the TV... but nope, you'll be forced to watch next year too until someone invents something like that. Kinda like me and "The OC".


----------



## JYoung

Charlie was pretty cold and didn't seem to give a damn about both Eko and Locke, who may or may not be dead.. 
Now I understand why he doesn't like Locke and why he was a dick to him earlier in the episode but Eko? 
Even if he felt abandoned by Eko, it's still pretty cold. 
I still think he's either on drugs again or been compromised (or both). 

The one thing I'm having problems buying is the fact that Desmond went along with Locke. 
He knew that if the timer ran out, the magnetic field went haywire. You think he might have mentioned it to Locke? 
Or did he just think that the field would dissipate after the timer ran out?


----------



## Jeeters

jkeegan said:


> * What if Libby didn't really have a husband named David? What if she's crazy, but has lots of money (she broke out of the institution and stole some doctor's money).. Now she's happily giving it away to guys for coffee, then giving them a boat.. She comes up with a lie/story, and goes with the name David because she heard Hurley say it multiple times (that last part has already been suggested)


What would be really bizarre is if Hurley's imaginary friend, Dave, turns out to also be Libby's imaginary husband, David.


----------



## teknikel

jkeegan said:


> * When Kelvin is dragging Desmond back to the hatch from the beach, a 44 minutes into the episode, there's a frame where Desmond is looking up, and the trees above him are superimposed on the shot, and there's this structure up in the trees.. Nothing terribly obvious or profound, but it definitely looks out of place.. almost like part of a plane or something, if the time had lined up.


It looks to me like the tank on Kelvins back.



jkeegan said:


> * Again, the ever present questions (amongst seeming answers): The plane crashed accidentally because of Desmond's random actions that day, right? (HE decided to go follow and fight). Yet Henry's group knows people's names. Either they're in touch with Oceanic airlines for a flight list, or they put people on that plane and they crashed coincidentally because of Desmond.. Or Desmond was set up to think it was because of him?


Couldn't Ethan have somehow gotten the names from the manifest or some other way?


----------



## appleye1

lordargent said:


> I thought it was a commercial, I was about to go watch something else.


Me too! I was fast-forwarding and hit the Bad Robot before I realized it was part of the show.



Jeeters said:


> He'll always be the Kurgen from "Highlander" to me.


 Wow, I watched both seasons of Carnivale and it never occured to me he was one who played the Kurgan.  He was great in that role. Plays the real evil bad guy well.


----------



## Jeeters

jkeegan said:


> * When Kelvin is dragging Desmond back to the hatch from the beach, a 44 minutes into the episode, there's a frame where Desmond is looking up, and the trees above him are superimposed on the shot, and there's this structure up in the trees.. Nothing terribly obvious or profound, but it definitely looks out of place.. almost like part of a plane or something, if the time had lined up.


Excellent catch, I totally missed that! You just made me go and frame by frame that scene (I have the HD bittorrents on my PC already). It looks to be some sort of metal cylindrical object stuck up in a tree. On further inspection, it looks to be suppored up by a thin pipe or something. And it definitely looks to have a blue and white Dharma logo on it.


----------



## gchance

jkeegan said:


> Back when I thought that there was no outside world (earlier in the episode), after Desmond made the snow-globe comment, I had a thought about Sayid using the black smoke.. (I don't believe this, but the thought crossed my mind): What if they're in a snow-globe wrap-around world not only with distance, but with time, and everything's on a loop.. what if the black smoke Sayid lit today is what Danielle saw years and years ago? But now that we've seen the end, we're more grounded on "this is earth" (thankfully).


THANK you.

I came on here the minute I finished watching (11:05pm PST, something like that). 5 pages of posts and this is the ONLY one mentioning the black smoke.

Syid told Jack about burning the leaves to create black smoke, and I turned to my wife and said, "Black smoke." Sure enough, we see black smoke that looks suspiciously like the black smoke Rousseau told the Losties that warns the Others are coming. Shortly thereafter, Sawyer's darted. Others have arrived. Duh, people.

I also thought of the time element, only not as far back as you... I was thinking that perhaps the black smoke they saw on the beach with Russeau was the black smoke that was just induced. Regardless, they ARE related.

Did they change the actress who played Penny? The picture of her they showed when they introduced Desmond in the season premiere looks much different.

OOOOOOOOOH, Locke destroyed the //e's monitor, scary, SCARY. Big man, Locke. I guess Eko didn't realize he could still enter numbers on the keyboard. 

I had some other thoughts, but they're slipping my mind at the moment. Excuse me while I go to bed and let everyone enter 10 more pages.

Greg


----------



## laststarfighter

In true Lost fashion, they created more questions than answers. Damn, you Lost! Why do you have to be so damn good? You're killing me knowing that I have to get tugged around for another 3-4 years until the series ends.

Man, the electromagnate causing the plane crash sounds so logical now. I can't believe anyone (to my knowledge) hadn't thought of it in all those weeks (and years) of tossing out theories.

We already have a lot of characters with rich background stories but the writers give us another gift in the form of Desmond. Thank you. I doubt that he is dead because it would be way to tragic for American viewers to handle that Desmond will never reunite with his lost love. No way that the writers of the show would stomach punch us like that. There would be bloodthirsty mobs outside of ABC if that were to happen. Besides, it would be much easier to develop the Desmond storyline if he is alive.


----------



## Jeeters

teknikel said:


> It looks to me like the tank on Kelvins back.


The tank is bright yellow like the suit. This object is gray or military greenish.


----------



## teknikel

Jeeters said:


> Excellent catch, I totally missed that! You just made me go and frame by frame that scene (I have the HD bittorrents on my PC already). It looks to be some sort of metal cylindrical object stuck up in a tree. On further inspection, it looks to be suppored up by a thin pipe or something. And it definitely looks to have a blue and white Dharma logo on it.


Of course I am only watching in SD.


----------



## zordude

I thought it was decent. When watching this show I am often torn between enjoyment, and screaming in frustration for them to just resolve even the tiniest plot point and throw me a bone.

One thing I was hoping we would have, is another glimpse into the black cloud thing, or "tree stomping thing"; but alas, no.

If it wasn't for the discussions here, I may have abandoned it by now, and watched the whole series after it was cancelled (no waiting), but you all make it worth it 

Z


----------



## MickeS

mqpickles said:


> "We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe!" was my favorite line of the night.


Anyone else think of that line when the last scene started, with the snow falling?


----------



## appleye1

JYoung said:


> Charlie was pretty cold and didn't seem to give a damn about both Eko and Locke, who may or may not be dead..
> Now I understand why he doesn't like Locke and why he was a dick to him earlier in the episode but Eko?
> Even if he felt abandoned by Eko, it's still pretty cold.
> I still think he's either on drugs again or been compromised (or both).


 Yeah, especially how minutes before he was all over Eko checking to see if he was OK and trying to get him to get up, etc. I think there is more to this storyline for sure.



JYoung said:


> The one thing I'm having problems buying is the fact that Desmond went along with Locke.
> He knew that if the timer ran out, the magnetic field went haywire. You think he might have mentioned it to Locke?
> Or did he just think that the field would dissipate after the timer ran out?


Again I think there is more to this storyline too. He just couldn't be that stupid. He had gone through the same thing only 65 or so days before. It's like he forgot and then remembered when it was too late. Doesn't make sense.


----------



## Jeeters

teknikel said:


> Of course I am only watching in SD.


Actually, no, *you're* right. Fast forwarding it a bit, I can see it definitely is the tank after all. Several frames earlier, it appears with the color washed out making it look like something else, but it really is just the air tank. The "pipe" thing I mentioned it just the rifle barrel.


----------



## Ruth

lordargent said:


> I thought it was a commercial, I was about to go watch something else.


Me too! I hit fast forward, then realized I'd screwed up and went back.

Wow, great episode. I don't really know what the heck is going on, but I sure do like it! I love how they just throw information at you -- such a bounty after the slow mid-season episodes -- and you feel like you've learned so much yet somehow you come away with even more questions.

Seems to me that Desmond wanted to sacrifice himself. Otherwise I can't see any reason for him not to tell Locke that he knows there is a really good reason to press the button.

Loved "I think I crashed your plane." It seems obvious now, but I never thought of the connection until he said it.

I wonder maybe if Desmond's boat has some sort of homing device that brings it specifically to the island, or to giant magnets or whatever. If Pen knew he had a boat that would bring him to a location with those features, it would explain why she is tracking that activity. It would also explain why Desmond couldn't use the boat to escape from the island.


----------



## MickeS

appleye1 said:


> Me too! I was fast-forwarding and hit the Bad Robot before I realized it was part of the show.
> 
> Wow, I watched both seasons of Carnivale and it never occured to me he was one who played the Kurgan.  He was great in that role. Plays the real evil bad guy well.


He sure does - he was that excellently mean prison guard in "The Shawshank Redemption" too, and the tough-as-nails officer in one of my all-time favorite movies, "Starship Troopers".


----------



## Jeeters

MickeS said:


> Anyone else think of that line when the last scene started, with the snow falling?


Nope, not me. When that last scene started, I thought it was a commercial.


----------



## lordargent

JYoung said:


> Charlie was pretty cold and didn't seem to give a damn about both Eko and Locke, who may or may not be dead.


This is the same Charlie that we presume attacked Sun. The man is a ticking time bomb.


----------



## MickeS

gchance said:


> OOOOOOOOOH, Locke destroyed the //e's monitor, scary, SCARY. Big man, Locke. I guess Eko didn't realize he could still enter numbers on the keyboard.


Ha, that's what I was thinking too!  But it was Desmond, not Eko, in that scene.



laststarfighter said:


> Man, the electromagnate causing the plane crash sounds so logical now. I can't believe anyone (to my knowledge) hadn't thought of it in all those weeks (and years) of tossing out theories.


No Kidding! I've read a whole lot of theories, here and elsewhere, and I can't remember a single one mentioning that. It was a forehead-slapping revelation for sure.


----------



## hefe

I was racking my brain trying to remember where I saw the actress whe played Penelope recently.

She is Sonya Walger, and was on a recent episode of Numb3rs.


----------



## MickeS

lordargent said:


> This is the same Charlie that we presume attacked Sun. The man is a ticking time bomb.


Not presume... he DID attack Sun. And yeah, he acted really weird at the end there. Odd scene.


----------



## hefe

MickeS said:


> No Kidding! I've read a whole lot of theories, here and elsewhere, and I can't remember a single one mentioning that. It was a forehead-slapping revelation for sure.


Hmmm. I'm pretty sure that was mentioned a few times...


----------



## Jeeters

hefe said:


> Hmmm. I'm pretty sure that was mentioned a few times...


Definitely *quite* a few times. And I never believed it when mentioned.


----------



## MickeS

By the way, here's my theory about the ending: maybe the boat race was just a setup by her father, to get Desmond away from her for good. He had this experiment going, and knew what would happen if he could only get Desmond to sail by there. And then she found out, and knew only that the experiment had to do with electromagnetism, so she talked to a couple of guys that she knew at the company, and told them to call her if they found any EM anomalies during their work (which they would've done anyway).

Who knows.  Can't wait until fall!


----------



## MickeS

hefe said:


> Hmmm. I'm pretty sure that was mentioned a few times...


well, I just said I can't remember it, not that it wasn't mentioned.  But it wasn't something that was at the forefront of the speculation at least, I don't think.


----------



## smak

Good thing about watching in HD is that the commercials don't fill up the entire screen, so I knew when they cut to the snow it was still the show.

I'm not a scientist, but my take on that is that being at one of the earth's magnetic poles would be the best place to check for electromagnetic disruptions across the earth.

Now why she's looking for that exactly will remain a mystery for now.

This was a great episode.

There was about 3 times I looked at the clock and said to myself that I can't believe this happened, and there's 30 minutes left. I can't believe that happened and there's 15 minutes left.

It seemed like there could have been a ton of places to end the season on a big cliffhanger (the big white blast being one), but they kept on going.

Watching the previews earlier and having them say "find out why flight 815 crashed", along with the "system failure" made me figure out that was what caused the plane to crash.

When they first talked about "the incident", i knew that was before Desmond got there which is years before the plane crash, but when the system failure happened to Desmond, I thought that was right about the right timeline.

I know Clancy Brown by name, and when I saw him in the credits, I figured it was a Sayid flashback. When it turned out to be a Desmond flashback i knew we were in for some fun.

-smak-


----------



## DevdogAZ

betts4 said:


> <snip>
> Desmond saying "don't tell me what I can do" - a play on the Locke line.
> <snip>


Actually it was Eko saying it and it was "Don't tell me what I can*'t* do." Yes, it was a play on the line Locke has spoken several times.

Awesome episode. Probably the best episode of TV in several years.

I sure hope Locke and Eko aren't dead. Obviously they won't be, since the characters are really central to the plot, but it will be interesting to find out what happened at ground zero.

I wonder if Locke will be crippled again now that the electromagnetism is gone. And will Rose be sick again?

When they read the excerpt from the journal in the pile of pneumatic tube capsules, they said, "S.R. moves the ping pong table. S.R. takes a shower." Is that refering to Radzinsky that was previously Kelvin's hatchmate?

I wonder how Kelvin knew all the info that he put in the map and why he apparently didn't share more with Desmond.

If that crazy rock formation where Desmond killed Kelvin is less than two hours round-trip from the hatch, why have our Losties never found it?

The washer and dryer got destroyed in the "System Failure." Perhaps this happened before and it's why the W/D were newer than most of the other stuff in the hatch.

Hopefully if they have written Michael and Walt out of the show they will at least continue to explain Walt's apparently supernatural abilities.

What's at 325 degrees from the supposed location of the island? Indonesia? The Phillipines? Japan? Korea?


----------



## Mr. Belboz

The nod Jack gives her is to let her know he is ready to give the signal to R2D2 to send him his light sabre so he can cut them free and send the bad guys down the pit into the sarlac.


----------



## tivogurl

betts4 said:


> Did anyone else laugh out loud when they saw the pile of pnuematic tubes? that was great!!!


Proves that Locke is right, it is all a psychological experiment.


----------



## DevdogAZ

I padded the beginning by 2 minutes and still didn't get the beginning of the "Previously On" stuff. What time did it actually start?


----------



## tivogurl

jkeegan said:


> ..building on an idea someone else started, what if the others (Gale, etc) aren't Dharma - they're anti-Dharma activists that found their way to the facility, and want to save people that are being used in human tests.. They look for the "good" ones of them and save them.


How exactly does kidnapping, medical experimentation, and murder qualify as "saving" anybody? If what you posit were true, they'd have figured out by now that the Losties also aren't Dharma. Why, then, do they continue the charade? Enlist them as allies.


----------



## JYoung

I recorded Reckoning as well tonight and the previously on started a little over two minutes before the scheduled time.


----------



## MickeS

tivogurl said:


> Proves that Locke is right, it is all a psychological experiment.


It doesn't prove anything of the kind. Desmond also had a good point: Locke had it reversed, it was the Lostie's hatch that was the important one, and if there was a psychological experiment going on, it was at the expense of the ones in the other hatch.

By the way, the trailers for this week's episode included a scene from en empty beach, showing the plane crashing. I didn't see any scene like that in the show, did I just miss that?


----------



## spikedavis

MickeS said:


> Ha, that's what I was thinking too!  But it was Desmond, not Eko, in that scene.
> 
> No Kidding! I've read a whole lot of theories, here and elsewhere, and I can't remember a single one mentioning that. It was a forehead-slapping revelation for sure.


What are you kidding me? I've been saying it since the season premiere and I've seen at least 20 people mention it this season...


----------



## Uncle Briggs

eugene82 said:


> /
> 
> And you are a fool to bet me. Bye to you, pal. You have your head up your ass if you think I'll be back for one of the weakest, and dumbest shows in all of TV history.


Lighten up Francis, and remember Ritalin is your friend.


----------



## JMikeD

hanumang said:


> Also, I'm not totally buying the 'plane crashed because of Desmond didn't enter the numbers' thing. That smells like misdirection to me.


Me, neither. Mostly because even a powerful electromagnet wouldn't tear the tail off, an aircraft is mainly aluminum and titanium, neither of which is affected by magnetism. Blowing out the "fly by wire" electronics, maybe, but it's not going to pull an aircraft apart. If electromagnetism turns out to be the answer for the crash, I'm going to be disappointed.


----------



## tivogurl

MickeS said:


> It doesn't prove anything of the kind. Desmond also had a good point: Locke had it reversed, it was the Lostie's hatch that was the important one, and if there was a psychological experiment going on, it was at the expense of the ones in the other hatch.


The observation hatch is clearly a psychological experiment, one long since abandoned. If the Lostie's hatch isn't, then why have human handlers? As long as the eletromagnetism is under control, and apparently Dharma's control of it is perfect since it has worked without incident for decades, modern computer control will handle it just fine. You don't need people to fool the non-existent observers. I think two things are implied here: 1) the anomaly is artificial. Somebody would have noticed a natural electromagnetic generator that extreme a long time ago. 2) The observation experiment was abandoned, therefore some or all of what's happening on the island isn't part of Dharma's original experiment. I might go so far as to argue that Dharma isn't in control of the island, somebody else is. Somebody who knew Dharma had abandoned the island and co-opted it for their own nefarious ends. The Dharma-branded food and materials is misdirection. In the extremely unlikely event outside authorities are told about the island, Dharma becomes the patsy.


----------



## RGM1138

I haven't really watched this series. (A couple of the first eps in S1, and the S1 finale. I haven't been able to watch S2, except for a scene or two here and there, so I don't really know the characters).

But, I am curious about a couple of things.

Fer instance:



Spoiler



Are these people actually on a tropical island somewhere in the Antarctic?

Are they in a "Matrix" type situation?

What does the Hanso Foundation/Dharma Initiative have to do with all this?



If someone would be so kind as to sum up, as it were, I'd be appreciative.

Thanks.

Bob


----------



## Richard R1

Many people here have posted about Charlie's strange behavior at the end of the episode, but no one has mentioned Claire -- wasn't it completely out of character (the latter part of this season, at least) for her to be *very* friendly with Charlie, and even initiate a kiss with him? What does this indicate?


----------



## cheesesteak

Bad day for Locke. Got caught crying like a baby. Got punched upside the head. Got proven wrong about the button. Was primarily responsible for Desmond's death.

Don't know what the point of Claire kissing Charlie was. Didn't like that at all.

Michael admits to killing two of their friends and leading four people into a trap and nobody does anything? Hurley should have tried to kill him. Somebody should have punched Michael in the face 4 or 5 times.

Whatever happened to Sayid?


----------



## Sirius Black

Richard R1 said:


> Many people here have posted about Charlie's strange behavior at the end of the episode, but no one has mentioned Claire -- wasn't it completely out of character (the latter part of this season, at least) for her to be *very* friendly with Charlie, and even initiate a kiss with him? What does this indicate?


Forgiveness?

After the hatch fell from the sky and people were shown putting things back in their places, I found it odd that rather than asking what the heck had just happened, they were just cleaning up as if a storm had come through or something. Something very odd had just happened and no one was bothering to wonder what it was.


----------



## Mike Wells

RE: desmond allowing the countdown to reach zero.

I suspect he didn't want to have to push the button. His intent was to show Locke that it was all real the same way he learned it - by seeing the effects. He intended to let it go to heiroglyphics and have a few chairs slide around then enter the numbers and everything is ok. Instead, Locke smashes the computer. (I'm gonna have to rewatch to confirm.) 

Lots of speculation previously about all the philosopher-parallels. Desmond's behavior also goes with the profile of Hume the philosopher, whose ideas Wikipedia describes as "Hume believes that all human knowledge comes to us through our senses." He must allow locke to experience the anamoly, just a bit, for him to believe.

RE: the Hurley bird
I think that was a nod to the fans. It was mentioned on the Lost podcast that people were calling a bird earlier in the season a "Hurleybird" because the call kinda sounded like it was saying Hurley. Significant speculation and dissection occured about what the Hurleybird meant, etc, and it turns out it was just a sound effect.

RE: the island
still no answers at all about the monster, the smoke, and the numbers. (Lotto anyone?)


Anyone else getting involved with the ARG connected to Lost? Should be a good summer diversion.


----------



## limsol45

first off with some of the old questions not being answered. i believe this is the best part of lost when they answer a question out of no where that you forgot about.

2nd...Surpised no one mentioned that desmond first woke up in the hatch, Kelvin asked are you "him" and then asked "what did the other snowman say to the other" 
desmond then said what are you talking about? then Kelvin seemed to be really really disapointed. 

locke then asked desmond the same question when they met up at the beach. Whats up with that?


----------



## headroll

limsol45 said:


> first off with some of the old questions not being answered. i believe this is the best part of lost when they answer a question out of no where that you forgot about.
> 
> 2nd...Surpised no one mentioned that desmond first woke up in the hatch, Kelvin asked are you "him" and then asked "what did the other snowman say to the other"
> desmond then said what are you talking about? then Kelvin seemed to be really really disapointed.
> 
> locke then asked desmond the same question when they met up at the beach. Whats up with that?


This must be the 'code' used to determine if the next person is there to relieve you of you button pushin' duties. Kelvin would be disappointed cause her was sick of pushing the button and wanted some relief.

"It Smells like Carrots"

-Roll


----------



## Mike Wells

I figure Kelvin was looking for his replacement, or his new partner. That snowman question is some codeword - he was dissapointed that his relief wasn't there. Maybe he thought he was a hostile?

After awhile Desmond assumed that role and Kevin taught him the challenge/response question so that he would know what to ask in case a new Dharma person shows up or in case he comes in contact with a hostile.

RE: the fake hatch door
Possibly created to fool Michael? Maybe that whole camp is fake? The huts kinda looked fake to me.

Re: the pile of vacuum tubes
Were they always intended to be discarded, or was there some sort of pickup that doesn't occur now? Hmmm.


----------



## mask2343

JMikeD said:


> Me, neither. Mostly because even a powerful electromagnet wouldn't tear the tail off, an aircraft is mainly aluminum and titanium, neither of which is affected by magnetism. Blowing out the "fly by wire" electronics, maybe, but it's not going to pull an aircraft apart. If electromagnetism turns out to be the answer for the crash, I'm going to be disappointed.


Remember that the pilot said all the instruments went blank. If the control system is out, the plane could get out of control pretty easily with some wind gusts. This would cause enormous loads on the tails and wings of the aircraft which may cause the tail section to rip off. If the plane was in a dive (due to loss of control) and the pilot was trying to manually lift out, the tails would DEFINITELY see a HUGE load. This doesn't explain how the engine was still running after falling off the wing though  .

One thought I had, but doesn't really fit with the character's actions: Libby and Kelvin could have been Dharma "recruiters". Leading people to the island. But the logistics of crashing the plane due to Desmonds failure to push the button just don't add up. I'm beginning to think that the backstory's are mostly a series of random occurances. I believe Pen is looking for the island her dad was doing experiments on...and Desmond will happen to be there.

How cool is it gonna be when Pen brings her team to the island next season. :up:


----------



## emandbri

Richard R1 said:


> Many people here have posted about Charlie's strange behavior at the end of the episode, but no one has mentioned Claire -- wasn't it completely out of character (the latter part of this season, at least) for her to be *very* friendly with Charlie, and even initiate a kiss with him? What does this indicate?


I think it means that Claire is very sexual person and it has been too long.

Emily


----------



## Fish Man

Don't know where to begin...

It has bothered me since we were introduced to the "pushing of the button" that _if the button-pushing was something more than a psychological experiment, then *why couldn't it have been automated?*_

Clearly, however, it had to have been "real".

The massive electromagnetic anomalies that were triggered by failing to push the button clearly indicate that it was doing something.

Some observations, opinions and guesses:

The island is in the tropics, and the monitoring station at the end, was in the Antarctic. This lets us know that the electromagnetic anomaly that was produced by "not pushing the button", as well as by Desmond's turning the "terminate" key, was detectable world wide.

Pen is clearly aware of the existence of the island, and the EM experiments taking place there. I am beginning to strongly suspect that her father is the "him" the others mention. At the very least, he's "Dharma management."

Notice how the others told Michael to exactly follow a particular compass bearing? With the "EM hatch" in operation, following this heading would have led him to some specific place. The others were leading him somewhere they wanted him to be. Leading him to freedom? *Doubt it!* They were probably leading him into another experiment/trap.

However, now that the EM anomalies are no longer occurring, with the EM hatch destroyed (at least, they're probably very different), Michael *will not go where the others think he will go* when he follows that compass heading they gave him!! So, the destruction of the hatch "breaks" whatever plan the others had for Michael.

I'll be pissed if Locke and/or Eko are dead. This would be the one big negative in an otherwise awesome episode. Could be a shark jump.

Does anyone know if Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje's or Terry O'Quinn's contracts for next season are in limbo? This could be the "real world" reason for their fate being an ambiguity. The producers can make the decision over the summer whether to have them be dead or not based on how the contract negotiations go with the actors.

This was the reason Picard's fate was left ambiguous at the end of Season 3 of Star Trek: The Next Generation. They weren't sure they could get Patrick Stewart back for the next season! Of course, in the case of TNG and Lost, it makes for a hellova season-end cliffhanger!


----------



## Jeeters

limsol45 said:


> Surpised no one mentioned that desmond first woke up in the hatch, Kelvin asked are you "him" and then asked "what did the other snowman say to the other"
> desmond then said what are you talking about? then Kelvin seemed to be really really disapointed.
> 
> locke then asked desmond the same question when they met up at the beach. Whats up with that?


Others have already stated that the question was a code phrase. As for Locke asking Desmond the question, I think Desmond asked Locke the question in the season opener when they first met. Desmond was also asking Locke "are you him?" back then. Locke reversing the question back on Desmond was just him using it as a joke since this is the second time they've met and the first time it was that question that greeted Locke. Desmond also called Lock "box man" again last night; something he also called him in the season opener.


----------



## ADG

I have to agree with the earlier posting that the reason for Michael & Walt being sent off is because of the younger actor's growth spurt being an anachronism. The only way I can think of to bring them (him) back would be a story line claiming that the island or some experiment(s) had an effect on Walt's growth rate.

I have to admit that on the whole I enjoy these threads. I'm a more "typical" viewer and tend to miss a lot of the in depth aspects of the show. Reading these posts after each episode point out things I'd never noticed or thought of. Okay, some theories may be silly, but some have proven to be very much on point - so far . And more important to me are you guys pointing out the little hints and clues the writers throw in that many of us overlook.


----------



## danplaysbass

Nobody has mentioned the incredible sound effects this episode had. I only wish I could have watched this in HD with 5.1 sound.

I also loved the hatch crumbling...especially what the counter crumbled. I will have to rewatch this again. It was just way too much info.


----------



## davezatz

jkeegan said:


> ..building on an idea someone else started, what if the others (Gale, etc) aren't Dharma - they're anti-Dharma activists that found their way to the facility, and want to save people that are being used in human tests.. They look for the "good" ones of them and save them..


And run round with guns and rocks killing the "bad" ones? Remember they raided the tail section camp and tried to kill a bunch of them including Eko. Ethan tried to kill Charlie, etc.


----------



## danieljanderson

No one has ever been able to explain why Dharma would crash the plane to get these people. What if the plane was meant to land at the island, but Desmond screwed it up causing the Pilot's instruments to go crazy and he looses control on approach. This could explain why so many people were able to survive. 

The flight attendant said that the plane was flying in the wrong direction for 2 hours, (no search party would ever find them)


----------



## wprager

lostinplace said:


> Nice touch, how Desmond HUME and John LOCKE end up together in the hatch at the end.


From a web page on David Hume:

_1769 Settles in Edinburgh and lives out his life as a man of letters and acknowledged patriarch of literature helping young writers critically as well as financially amoungst whom were Thomas Blackwell, Tobias Smollett and Jean-Jacques *Rousseau*._​
Also this quote:
_"Methinks that I am like a man, who having struck on many shoals, and having narrowly escap'd ship-wreck in passing a small firth, has yet the temerity to put to sea in the same leaky weather-beaten vessel, and even carries his ambition so far as to think of compassing the globe under this disadvantageous circumstances..."_​
I'm guessing the writers/producers are well-versed in their philosophers. I feel rather ashamed that _my_ prior awareness of David Hume was limited to knowing that he could out-consume Schopenhauer and Hegel


----------



## Sirius Black

davezatz said:


> And run round with guns and rocks killing the "bad" ones? Remember they raided the tail section camp and tried to kill a bunch of them including Eko. Ethan tried to kill Charlie, etc.


I don't think we know one way or the other what the motivation of fake-bearded-guy and his pals is. If their actions were truly honorable, Henry would have been forthcoming from the moment he was captured by the crash survivors. I don't think his reluctance to be honest with them was out of fear. He seemed to be 'in charge' when he showed up on the dock.

There is also the question of whether or not there is a second group of "others" and, if the folks that the hostiles captured from the tale section, where are they? Did they just kill them? Doesn't seem like the actions of "good people". The kidnapping of children and other innocents doesn't make me want to respect their motivation.


----------



## Lee L

Wow, quite an intense episode. I loved it. My wife, who had been cooling on the show a little (but still watched) is now 100% back in.

Am I the only one who thought that the "Him" that Henry talked about was in fact Henry? A la Keyser Soze? He was questioning the beard like he was in control and acted like he was running things.
_edit: I see that Sirius Black agrees and beat me to it by 2 minutes of typing. _ 

I had thought that Desmond was trying to sacrifice himself, but like the theory that he wanted Locke to see what happened, but thought that he could pull it all back together with a late entry until Locke smashed things.

The whole time with teh guys in the ice research statiosn my wife and I are looking at each other wondering what was going on. When the phone call was answered, my head must have tilted like a dog listenting to a high pitched sound as ZOFGWTFBBQ!?!?!?!?!?!? raced through my mind.

I also had the exact same Han and Leia thought when I saw Jack and KAte look at each other.


----------



## jeff125va

JMikeD said:


> An inexpensive ($60) UPS will fix the power problem, but it won't do anything about the signal loss, unfortunately. I've had my power go out for almost an hour, and didn't lose any of the program that was being recorded.


Mine actually saved me during last season's Lost finale when we lost power for close to an hour. Where I needed one (and still haven't gotten around to connecting one) is to my multi-switch. I got the rest of Lost, but since the power was still out at 10:00, it didn't change channels on another tuner and I missed some of whatever show it was supposed to switch to.


----------



## greg_burns

MickeS said:


> By the way, the trailers for this week's episode included a scene from en empty beach, showing the plane crashing. I didn't see any scene like that in the show, did I just miss that?


At the very end of the episode when it came back from running the credits it (at least started to) show the scene of the plane falling out of the sky and hitting the beach. (same scene we've seen before). Then, before it finished, it cut to the nightly news. What was up with that? (Philly HD feed.)


----------



## vtfan99

Fish Man said:


> ...
> I'll be pissed if Locke and/or Eko are dead...


I agree. I really liked their characaters.

I have been thinking about it and I figure there is a decent chance of them being alive. I'm pretty sure they were in the section of the hatch surrounded by the blast doors (the ones that Eko could not blast through), so perhaps they were shielded from whatever it is that happened.

I also naturally assumed Desmond was dead, but my wife mentioned something that got me thinking. She said the whole thing with the key bringing him back to Pen was a little too symbolic to just throw it all away. So perhaps something bizarre happened that protected him too.

All-in-all it was a great episode. Just pissed that I have to wait so long for next season. But such is life in the TV world.


----------



## jeff125va

scheckeNYK said:


> How many toes do primates have? Maybe this is like Planet of the Apes after all the apes die and the humans take the world back.


I have 10. Not sure about the rest.


----------



## Guindalf

All I can say is....WOW! Great episode. Can't wait til the fall and more Lost.

One thing I think I can answer for sure is that the island is NOT in the Antarctic. If the researchers almost missed the EM pulse, then they couldn't have been that close to it. Therefore there must be considerable distance between the research station and the island.

Also, Desmond's mention of Fiji had to be a guess. The location of the island has never been determined, so how could he KNOW he was headed for Fiji? Of course, we know that the electromagnetism would mess with any compass setting and probably lead someone in a circle. Which begs the question - How are Michael and Walt supposed to follow the course set by Henry?

I have so much to say, so I'm going to stop! There will be thousands of theories, so I'll not bother you with mine. Let's enjoy it for what it is...a DARN GOOD TV SHOW!!!!!


----------



## Jeeters

Guindalf said:


> The location of the island has never been determined, so how could he KNOW he was headed for Fiji? Of course, we know that the electromagnetism would mess with any compass setting and probably lead someone in a circle.


But I'd think he'd have figured that out by the fact that the sun and the stars would be in the wrong place for where he thinks he's going.


----------



## mitchb2

HOLY FREAKING CRAP!

When Charlie kissed Claire, and it faded to black, then I saw snow...I figured it was a commercial and the show was over, so I turned it off.

Started reading this thread this morning, and went back and watched the ending.

WOW! I can't believe I missed THAT.


----------



## jeff125va

I'm wondering whether we'll see any more of Michael and Walt. Given how little Walt was on this season, I get the impression that they're writing him out of the show. And I don't see how Michael could continue to co-exist with the others (not THE others, just Jack et. al.) given what he did to Libby and Ana-Lucia. But they left a lot of questions unanswered, including new ones (well, not entirely new) about Walt. Not to mention the obvious question of where they're headed and whether they'll make it "home" or wherever.


----------



## jeff125va

mitchb2 said:


> HOLY FREAKING CRAP!
> 
> When Charlie kissed Claire, and it faded to black, then I saw snow...I figured it was a commercial and the show was over, so I turned it off.
> 
> Started reading this thread this morning, and went back and watched the ending.
> 
> WOW! I can't believe I missed THAT.


I started to fast-forward - actually, 30 second skip - and I might have kept on going except that for a split second I noticed something about "electromagnetic" something-or-other, and then realized that the picture was widescreen instead of boxed 4:3 like most commercials.


----------



## RunnerFL

Ereth said:


> Libby is short for Elizabeth. It was definitely Libby.


What if it wasn't? What if Elizabeth is Libby's twin sister?


----------



## sushikitten

MickeS said:


> By the way, here's my theory about the ending: maybe the boat race was just a setup by her father, to get Desmond away from her for good. He had this experiment going, and knew what would happen if he could only get Desmond to sail by there. And then she found out, and knew only that the experiment had to do with electromagnetism, so she talked to a couple of guys that she knew at the company, and told them to call her if they found any EM anomalies during their work (which they would've done anyway).
> 
> Who knows.  Can't wait until fall!


This is the closest to what hubby and I thought...

The pile of pnuematic tubes was the best.

On the dock, when they said to Michael (or when Michael confirmed they weren't going to hurt his friends) I was waiting for them to make HIM shoot Jack, Sawyer, and Kate.

Why would Desmond be dead? I know he said he was (basically) trading his life...but if everyone else was okay, why wouldn't he be? Or just because he was SO close to the center, it was that much worse (i.e. fatal) for him?

So what was up with the Quarantine hatch crashing to the beach? Hubby said he thought the key-turn prompted a reverse electromagnetic pulse that repelled everything, hence forcing the Quarantine hatch door into the sky...and then it fell back down.

Oh, and I did notice the women grabbing Kate's chest. 

This is the only ep I've saved to watch again...


----------



## RunnerFL

eugene82 said:


> I guess it was also cool when a thermonuclear incident took place having no effects on anyone.


Thermonuclear? Are you sure you are watching the same show?


----------



## Fish Man

Guindalf said:


> Also, Desmond's mention of Fiji had to be a guess. The location of the island has never been determined, so how could he KNOW he was headed for Fiji?


I would think that when he crashed on the island originally, he would have had a pretty good idea where he was.

He was sailing around the world, had trained for it, and presumably knew what he was doing.

So, on his original voyage, he is pretty confident he knows where he is, a storm comes up, and he is blown to the island.

It's doubtful the storm could have blown him too terribly far.

I think there's plenty of evidence that the island is *somewhere* in the South Pacific.

However, the island messes up the ability to navigate in it's vicinity.

As has been pointed out, not only does it throw compasses off, it apparently "distorts" the appearance of the stars, etc. so that one cannot navigate by them, either.

The interesting question now becomes, is that distortion gone (or has it changed) now that Desmond has destroyed the Electromagnetic Hatch?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the others gave Michael a very specific compass heading, and told him to stay absolutely on that heading.

However, with the EM hatch destroyed (or, at least, greatly altered), this compass heading will now lead Michael to a *different place than the others intended*, which is fascinating, and I'm sure will be a plot element next season.

As I stated before, there's no doubt in my mind that the others *were not leading Michael to freedom*, but into another trap/experiment of some kind.


----------



## golfnut-n-nh

Can anyone supply screen caps of the two men doing the EM monitoring? There is discussion that one of the men closely resembles Jack. Hard to check the episode from work!


----------



## BeanMeScot

RunnerFL said:


> What if it wasn't? What if Elizabeth is Libby's twin sister?


Doubtful. It would be pretty silly to name your kids Charles and Chuck. Besides, we saw in the show how upset she was about her husband's death. It doesn't take much imagination to have her get so depressed she had to be hospitalized. She didn't seem agitated at the hospital. Depression would fit the way she was acting.


----------



## mitchb2

jeff125va said:


> . Given how little Walt was on this season, I get the impression that they're writing him out of the show.


In an interview in SciFi magazine with JJ et al, they say that Walt is the key to the story.


----------



## MitchO

The one thing that stuck out to me is how pretty much every "doer" of the group is not with the group for an undetermined amount of time. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Locke, Eko, Jin and Sayid are all theoretically 'unavailable' when the season returns. Claire and Charlie, by the power of that kiss and by default, are now the power couple. And by the way he's acting, I suspect Charlie doesn't feel too badly about that at all. Everyone keeps asking him for favors, and dropping him when he's no longer needed. Who else is going to tell everyone what to do? Rose? Hurley?

I also kept waiting for Hurley to just absolutely snap last night, but it wasn't to be.


----------



## loubob57

Sirius Black said:


> Henry would have been forthcoming from the moment he was captured by the crash survivors. I don't think his reluctance to be honest with them was out of fear. He seemed to be *'in charge'* when he showed up on the dock.


202 posts before I found this! I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## pjmst37

New member here and first post, so please bear with me ...

I was unfortunate enough to start watching this show this season so I don't know a whole lot of what went on in the first season, but this summer I hope to rent and watch the first season and maybe get a little more insight.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned so far is something that happened earlier this season and kind of ties into to the finale. Remember when we first saw the blast doors come down and Locke tried to slide underneath? Well, what triggered the blast doors? Because we now know that Kelvin and Desmonde could trigger those doors at will. Plus where did the blacklight come from that illuminated Radzinsky's and Kelvin's "map"? Because it sure would've been helpful to have that when "painting" on the wall instead of doing it by spatial memory. 

Also in this episode Henry says that the counter went to the hieroglyphics and then reset. I believe he also told Locke that nothing happened or that he did anything. I think even the sounds were the same when the blast doors came down. So did Henry enter the numbers and maybe start Locke down the path of disbelief and doubt? Was it the goal of the Others to have the Losties NOT keep entering the numbers? I just find it interesting that Henry, who we now know is pretty high in the food chain, to lie about entering the numbers.

And Charlie's behavior at the end is quite puzzling. Actually, come think about it, everyone's reaction after Desomnde turned the key was quite puzzling! You don't say "Uh, what the heck just happened?" 

Guess we'll find out in Season 3 and pardon the rambling, it's what I was wondering after last night's show.


----------



## littleprincess

Did anyone else notice that Matthew and Josh were the 2 actors who played the 2 guys in the antartic.


----------



## Fish Man

RunnerFL said:


> What if it wasn't? What if Elizabeth is Libby's twin sister?


And I tended to think I overthought this show!

It was Libby! It was obvious it was Libby!

Libby is a nickname for Elizabeth! Twins wouldn't be named Libby and Elizabeth. Would two twins be named Tom and Thomas or Dave and David? Doubt it!

It's yet another "real world" connection between "losties" (in this case, Desmond being an "honorary" lostie!)


----------



## emandbri

ADG said:


> I have to agree with the earlier posting that the reason for Michael & Walt being sent off is because of the younger actor's growth spurt being an anachronism. The only way I can think of to bring them (him) back would be a story line claiming that the island or some experiment(s) had an effect on Walt's growth rate.


I'm really surprised the makers of the show didn't think about this. The actor that plays walt was born in May of 1992 so he would have been 12 when the show started and just turned 14. duh!

Emily


----------



## Fish Man

pjmst37 said:


> New member here and first post, so please bear with me ...
> 
> One thing I haven't seen mentioned so far is something that happened earlier this season and kind of ties into to the finale. Remember when we first saw the blast doors come down and Locke tried to slide underneath? Well, what triggered the blast doors? Because we now know that Kelvin and Desmonde could trigger those doors at will. Plus where did the blacklight come from that illuminated Radzinsky's and Kelvin's "map"? Because it sure would've been helpful to have that when "painting" on the wall instead of doing it by spatial memory.


The blast doors came down on Locke, I think, because a "supply drop" was about to happen.

In the flashbacks in this episode, Desmond talks to Kelvin about how he learned how to "fake a lockdown".

So, Desmond and Kelvin almost surely experienced *real* lockdowns too, when they would receive supply drops.

Perhaps, Kelvin didn't figure out how to "hot wire" the black lights. He could "hot wire" the doors, but not the lights.

But, in a *real* lockdown, the black lights came on. So, this is what inspired Kelvin (and his predecessor, I'm forgetting the predecessor's name at the moment) to use the florescent paint.


----------



## jeff125va

Fish Man said:


> And I tended to think I overthought this show!
> 
> It was Libby! It was obvious it was Libby!
> 
> Libby is a nickname for Elizabeth! Twins wouldn't be named Libby and Elizabeth. Would two twins be named Tom and Thomas or Dave and David? Doubt it!
> 
> It's yet another "real world" connection between "losties" (in this case, Desmond being an "honorary" lostie!)


I went to high school with twins named Khanh and Khánh.

Just sayin'. I have no doubt she's Libby. Her not being Libby is as ridiculous as Sun's English teacher being the father instead of Jin.


----------



## twincaminferno

So I guess Henry did enter the codes when Locke was stuck? or entered another code? Also why was he trying to get him to not push the button???


----------



## WinBear

Speaking of twin theory...
I checked IMDB when Clancy Brown came on last night. He was listed as "Joe Inman" in his previous appearance. I suppose he could be Joseph Kelvin Inman or something like that as easily as he could be twins named Joe and Kelvin.


----------



## NYDR27

Why does everyone keep saying that what happened on the island was a thermonuclear blast? Whatever it was, it was created by the electromagnetic power generator. I guess it would be possible that Desmond, John Locke, and Ecko are still alive. If Desmond did die, he would have probably died from some sort of electric shock from the power generator.
The power generator however, doesn't meltdown or anything because after the disruption, everything goes back to normal power wise anyways.


----------



## RunnerFL

hefe said:


> I was racking my brain trying to remember where I saw the actress whe played Penelope recently.
> 
> She is Sonya Walger, and was on a recent episode of Numb3rs.


She also plays a lab tech on CSI:NY. And she was on "The Mind Of The Married Man" a few years ago.


----------



## cwoody222

JadeWolf07 said:


> Did anyone catch the nod to The OC? Alan Dale from the show was on as Widmore, and the sailboat said "Newport Beach" on the back


haha, I didn't see that! 

:up: :up: :up:


----------



## vtfan99

NYDR27 said:


> Why does everyone keep saying that what happened on the island was a thermonuclear blast?


Im no nuclear expert, but a thermonuclear blast would've destroyed the entire island, not just the hatch.


----------



## Fish Man

NYDR27 said:


> Why does everyone keep saying that what happened on the island was a thermonuclear blast?


I saw exactly one thread crapper (who tends to be a chronic Lost-thread crapper) mistake the phenomenon for a thermonuclear blast.

Everyone else, as far as I can tell (correctly) believes it to have been an electromagnetic phenomenon of some sort, not a thermonuclear blast.

However, being in a very strong EM field is hazardous, and can be fatal.

I work for a company that designs a variety of digital commercial radios. In that business, I often associate with "tower builders". These are guys who's speciality is to climb radio towers and install (and repair) antennas.

When they climb a tower with a particularly high-power transmitting antenna on it, they have to wear a protective suit.

They tell me that being in close proximity to an extremely powerful transmitting antenna (such as a multi-megawatt UHF TV transmitter, up on the tower) tends to give them a nasty headache.

If we assume that the EM pulse was several orders of magnitude stronger than the output of a UHF TV transmitter (must have been to create the effects shown), then it could, potentially, have been fatal to those too close to the epicenter of the phenomenon.


----------



## smickola

What is with the episode title? I know Jack said it, after Michael thanked him for coming out and helping him get Walt. But in that context, wouldn't "live together, die TOGETHER" make more sense??


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

littleprincess said:


> Did anyone else notice that Matthew and Josh were the 2 actors who played the 2 guys in the antartic.


Is this confirmed? I did think that one of the two looked like Matthew (with bad teeth) when I first saw it.

Heck, I'm re-watching tonight anyway...


----------



## philw1776

JMikeD said:


> Me, neither. Mostly because even a powerful electromagnet wouldn't tear the tail off, an aircraft is mainly aluminum and titanium, neither of which is affected by magnetism. Blowing out the "fly by wire" electronics, maybe, but it's not going to pull an aircraft apart. If electromagnetism turns out to be the answer for the crash, I'm going to be disappointed.


You don't realy think that Hollywood writers know anything about high school science do you? They're the artsy types.


----------



## Jeeters

NYDR27 said:


> Why does everyone keep saying that what happened on the island was a thermonuclear blast?


Only one person has; everybody else has been criticising that comment.


----------



## MitchO

I'm missing something: Who are Matthew and Josh?


----------



## Guindalf

MitchO said:


> I'm missing something: Who are Matthew and Josh?


Actors who play Jack and Sawyer.


----------



## Jeeters

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Is this confirmed? I did think that one of the two looked like Matthew (with bad teeth) when I first saw it.
> 
> Heck, I'm re-watching tonight anyway...


It does look *very* much like him, but the earlobes are different and the nose looks more 'hawk like". Definitely not his voice, though, and you tell it's the actor's actual voice, not a voiceover. As for somebody saying the other guy looks like Josh Holloway... Huh?


----------



## Fish Man

philw1776 said:


> You don't realy think that Hollywood writers know anything about high school science do you? They're the artsy types.


An EM pulse could *not* pull an aluminum passenger plane out of the sky.

However...

An EM pulse *could* knock out the plane's instruments and fly by wire systems, making the plane unflyable and causing it to break up and crash.

If this is what happened, however, it still requires a massive suspension of disbelief to believe that said crash would be survivable by anyone!


----------



## Daytona24

I have all the answers to questions we need to know, like the reason the plane crashed, that was to capture your attention from the beginning to get you to watch the show. Why were all these people brought to the island? So that the writers had enough material to stretch out in little flashbacks so you'd have a reason to watch it every week. Who are the others? Their people that are smart enough to not watch the show every week and are trying to help the rest of us (their good guys). Who is the Dharma initiative? Their the network executives holding us hostage in a psychological experiment to see how long we'll watch this crazy show! And believe me the people on the island are NOT Lost, they know exactly where they are, about a few miles from where they get their paychecks every week.

As for the explosion, that actually wasnt part of the show, it was the culmination of millions of viewer's brains finally tearing down from trying to figure out what this show is about!!!

See you next season when we get the questions to answer more answers of questions!!!



P.S. I'm not a LOST hater I actually do like LOST and will watch it next season!!!


----------



## stalemate

smickola said:


> What is with the episode title? I know Jack said it, after Michael thanked him for coming out and helping him get Walt. But in that context, wouldn't "live together, die TOGETHER" make more sense??


I took "Live Together, Die Alone" to mean "Together we will live, but alone we will die" in this context.


----------



## NoThru22

Fish Man said:


> I'll be pissed if Locke and/or Eko are dead. This would be the one big negative in an otherwise awesome episode. Could be a shark jump.


A shark jump is when something silly or completely inane happens. If they died in that hatch, that would be unfortunate, but not as stupid as a shark jump.


davezatz said:


> And run round with guns and rocks killing the "bad" ones? Remember they raided the tail section camp and tried to kill a bunch of them including Eko. Ethan tried to kill Charlie, etc.


The Others were not trying to kill anyone. They were trying to take the "good" ones from the beach. Where they take the good ones, who knows. Eko bashed *them* in the head with rocks for trying to take him. He was on their "good list."

Live together, die alone is the same as united we stand, divided we fall.


----------



## jeff125va

Daytona24 said:


> I have all the answers to questions we need to know, like the reason the plane crashed, that was to capture your attention from the beginning to get you to watch the show. Why were all these people brought to the island? So that the writers had enough material to stretch out in little flashbacks so you'd have a reason to watch it every week. Who are the others? Their people that are smart enough to not watch the show every week and are trying to help the rest of us (their good guys). Who is the Dharma initiative? Their the network executives holding us hostage in a psychological experiment to see how long we'll watch this crazy show! And believe me the people on the island are NOT Lost, they know exactly where they are, about a few miles from where they get their paychecks every week.
> 
> As for the explosion, that actually wasnt part of the show, it was the culmination of millions of viewer's brains finally tearing down from trying to figure out what this show is about!!!
> 
> See you next season when we get the questions to answer more answers of questions!!!
> 
> P.S. I'm not a LOST hater I actually do like LOST and will watch it next season!!!


Well, as someone mentioned earlier, and I had posted a few weeks ago that I would be extremely surprised that they'd leave unanswered for two full seasons, we still don't know what happened to Locke's legs.

Regardless of whatever caused his inability to use them previously, some have theorized that the magnet had something to do with "healing" Locke's legs, Rose's cancer, and Jin's infertility (oh, sorry, unless it was the English teacher  ). If, and I'm not sure that this is exactly what happened, Desmond "turned off" the magnet, might that reverse whatever healing process took place?


----------



## philw1776

I absolutely loved this episode and was rivited for 2 hours watching in HD realtime. Despite the usually excellent characterization, I'm perplexed by why when everyone learns of Michael's murders they almost see to shrug it off as "Michael being Michael" instead of filling him with hot lead. And the quirky behaviour by Charlie at the end is puzzling, probably an indication that the denoument at the hatch had some yet unrevealed happenings, I hope.

If Walt were not the key according to the producers, I'd be siting here happy expecting never to see Michael or Walt ever again. Sigh.

Enjoyed the cute play on "we're in a snowglobe" (St Elsewhere) and then ending the show with the presumably Antartic scene. Given the disregard for science in science fictional TV shows it's not beyond imagining that we'll find out that the island is somehow hidden underground or something in Antartica. Maybe a 1% chance. Add me to the list of those somewhat surprised that there still really is a world outside the island.

I'm with those who think that Henry "the good guys" are working to subvert the Dharma leaders. But how could you be a good guy and attack and kill Lostie tail folks? Or be Ethan and hang the Hobbit, leaving him for dead? And why were Henry & his buddies so stupid or perverse that they did not simply offer to exchange Henry for Walt and spring him right away in a prisoner exchange?

Lots of neat stuff to obsess about over the summah!


----------



## NoThru22

WinBear said:


> Speaking of twin theory...
> I checked IMDB when Clancy Brown came on last night. He was listed as "Joe Inman" in his previous appearance. I suppose he could be Joseph Kelvin Inman or something like that as easily as he could be twins named Joe and Kelvin.


IMDB is not official by any stretch of the imagination. The show does not have proper credits for guest stars (they just show up by their name in the beginning.)


naybag said:


> Questions:
> Remember the polar bear on the island in season 1? Is the polar bear related to the snowy scene at the end?
> Where are the monsters that were attacking people early on?


To answer some of your questions: no I doubt the polar bear is related to that station. I bet that station is in Antartica, which is near Australia and (likely) the Island and polar bears are from the Arctic. It is more likely the polar bear is there as some part of the Dharma experiment, as evidenced in the Swan's orientation video and the mention of the polar bear on Kelvin's map (which said it was an expiriment involving polar bears.)

The "monster" is a cloud of smoke, possibly called a Cerburus (also from the map), that can apparently read people's thoughts and possibly "judge" them. Locke and Eko have passed it's judgement (at least Locke did the first time.)


----------



## Evicted

Fish Man said:


> An EM pulse could *not* pull an aluminum passenger plane out of the sky.
> 
> However...
> 
> An EM pulse *could* knock out the plane's instruments and fly by wire systems, making the plane unflyable and causing it to break up and crash.
> 
> If this is what happened, however, it still requires a massive suspension of disbelief to believe that said crash would be survivable by anyone!


I thought the crash was caused (or appeared to be) by turbulence? The EM seemed to cause quite a ruckus on the island - if the force is enough to actually bend the appearance of the sky and make navigation impossible, maybe it caused turbulence?

Disclaimer: I know nothing about science anymore, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


----------



## NoThru22

philw1776 said:


> If Walt were not the key according to the producers, I'd be siting here happy expecting never to see Michael or Walt ever again. Sigh.


The fact that Walt is gone from the show does not preclude the possibility we will learn what the Others found out about him the weeks he was with them. I doubt they would've recorded a flashback with him that they'll eventually show (a la Michael, Claire and Desmond) but that's a possibility as well. Especially if they do it first thing.


----------



## Fish Man

NoThru22 said:


> A shark jump is when something silly or completely inane happens. If they died in that hatch, that would be unfortunate, but not as stupid as a shark jump.


Actually, IMNSHO, a "Shark Jump" occurs when a format, story line, or character lineup change is made to a series that causes viewers to lose interest and the ratings to decline significantly.

I'm afraid the loss of a character as popular as Locke or Eko could cause a pronounced ratings decline to Lost. IOW, a "shark jump".


----------



## Magister

mitchb2 said:


> HOLY FREAKING CRAP!
> 
> When Charlie kissed Claire, and it faded to black, then I saw snow...I figured it was a commercial and the show was over, so I turned it off.
> 
> Started reading this thread this morning, and went back and watched the ending.
> 
> WOW! I can't believe I missed THAT.


I thought the same thing as it showed the snow, but the ABC Bug was still in the lower right hand corner, so I didn't FF through it.


----------



## jryken99

Did anybody pick up on the similarities in Desmond's story to the Odyssey?

-- Former soldier trying to get back home
-- Lover named Penelope about to marry somebody else


----------



## Guindalf

NoThru22 said:


> *The fact that Walt is gone from the show* does not preclude the possibility we will learn what the Others found out about him the weeks he was with them. I doubt they would've recorded a flashback with him that they'll eventually show (a la Michael, Claire and Desmond) but that's a possibility as well. Especially if they do it first thing.


NOT a fact - not even close. This is as unresolved as verything else on the show. In fact, if Walt is central to what's happening, then it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that he has gone. We don't know if Henry was telling the truth or where bearing 325 will lead, but it's my bet that it's not off the show!


----------



## Fish Man

jeff125va said:


> Regardless of whatever caused his inability to use them previously, some have theorized that the magnet had something to do with "healing" Locke's legs, Rose's cancer, and Jin's infertility (oh, sorry, unless it was the English teacher  ). If, and I'm not sure that this is exactly what happened, Desmond "turned off" the magnet, might that reverse whatever healing process took place?


My guess is that the magnetic effects were not the only "extrascientific" aspect to the island.

It may be another phenomenon that causes the "healing properties".

Also, I suspect that the island naturally has some strange electromagnetic characteristics. "Locke's/Eko's hatch" was some sort of attempt to "harness" that electromagnetic phenomenon. By "destroying" the hatch, Desmond let the EM properties of the island to go back to their "natural" state. But, that "natural" state is still extraordinary in some way.


----------



## mwhip

I go to bed and we are at 2 pages I get up and come to work and we are at 9!!!! 

I skimmed but have we talked about the 2 guys in the hatch that were drew the map? Were they exploring the island and that is how they came up with it? Have they been stationed in other hatches? How come the others never bothered them? Or did they and that is why they have the arsenal in the hatch. 

And my new theory after talking with a friend about his theories.

The Others = Green Peace or anti Dharma people
Ethan Rhom = Dharma people
Losties = well losties still trying to make sense of it all


----------



## Jeeters

philw1776 said:


> I'm with those who think that Henry "the good guys" are working to subvert the Dharma leaders. But how could you be a good guy and attack and kill Lostie tail folks? Or be Ethan and hang the Hobbit, leaving him for dead?


We don't know that they killed any of the Lostie folks. All we know is they came at night and kidnapped them. But yeah, Ethan is a big question to me. I'd argue that he's from a different group than Henry, but we know from Claire's flashback to her kidnapping that she saw Ethan with Alex and the bearded Other (forget his name) together in the same hatch facility.


----------



## vtfan99

philw1776 said:


> ...And why were Henry & his buddies so stupid or perverse that they did not simply offer to exchange Henry for Walt and spring him right away in a prisoner exchange?


I assumed they chose their present course of action in order to get "the 4" they were after. If they had done a simple exchange, they couldn't have captured "the 4" without other people's knowledge. And who knows what other motives they had...like why they let Hurley go (besides the stated reason)?


----------



## Fish Man

NoThru22 said:


> The fact that Walt is gone from the show does not preclude the possibility we will learn what the Others found out about him the weeks he was with them. I doubt they would've recorded a flashback with him that they'll eventually show (a la Michael, Claire and Desmond) but that's a possibility as well. Especially if they do it first thing.


The last two appearances of Walt seem to have been aided by forced perspective (carefully chosen camera angles to make him appear to be shorter than he is) and a dubbed pre-pubescent voice.

If they retain Walt as a recurring character, they could use these techniques forever to make him appear not to be aging.

To use forced perspective and a dubbed voice to keep him as a series regular, however, would probably be too much trouble.


----------



## cwoody222

Wow, lots and lots to think about after reading all of this. Too much to even write here.

I'm in agreement that the "Others" are anti-Dharma trying to 'save' people. However - are they ex-Dharma, or were they led here like the Losties or did they just stumble upon the island or did they go there specifically to stop Dharma? And why do they wear fake beards and want their names ("Tom") kept secret?

And while we can assume now they didn't intend to harm the Tailies, why did Rousseau think they were violent and evil? Did she just assume that based on what the illness did to her crew?

One thing I haven't specifically seen mentioned here...

Why did they choose Kate, Jack and Sawyer specifically?

Could it be because all of them have "powerful" connections in the real world?

a) Kate's dad was a military guy and could have had connections to Dharma and/or Widmore (thru Kelvin or not)

b) Jack's dad, a doctor, could be tied to Widmore

c) Isn't it a theory that Locke's dad is also Sawyer's dad? Locke's dad was directly connected to Widmore Labs (he's on the board according to the website)

Maybe the three of them were to be spared? But why not Locke? Well, we know he didn't get along great with his father!


----------



## murrays

pjmst37 said:


> Also in this episode Henry says that the counter went to the hieroglyphics and then reset. I believe he also told Locke that nothing happened or that he did anything. I think even the sounds were the same when the blast doors came down. So did Henry enter the numbers and maybe start Locke down the path of disbelief and doubt? Was it the goal of the Others to have the Losties NOT keep entering the numbers? I just find it interesting that Henry, who we now know is pretty high in the food chain, to lie about entering the numbers.


Another question, why didnt Henry simply walk away?



Mike Wells said:


> RE: the Hurley bird
> I think that was a nod to the fans. It was mentioned on the Lost podcast that people were calling a bird earlier in the season a "Hurleybird" because the call kinda sounded like it was saying Hurley. Significant speculation and dissection occured about what the Hurleybird meant, etc, and it turns out it was just a sound effect.


Yeah, and Sawyers comment pretty much said Youre way off!



jkeegan said:


> * What if Libby didn't really have a husband named David? What if she's crazy, but has lots of money (she broke out of the institution and stole some doctor's money).. Now she's happily giving it away to guys for coffee, then giving them a boat.. She comes up with a lie/story, and goes with the name David because she heard Hurley say it multiple times (that last part has already been suggested)


Hurley has lots of money, but the timing is off  Which brings up the Lotto and the significance of the numbers.

-murray


----------



## murrays

jryken99 said:


> Did anybody pick up on the similarities in Desmond's story to the Odyssey?
> 
> -- Former soldier trying to get back home
> -- Lover named Penelope about to marry somebody else


So who do you think Penelope is/was going to marry? Perhaps that person is who she is looking for...then again, she had a picture with Desmond on her night stand. 

-murray


----------



## cwoody222

http://www.widmoregroup.com/news.htm

The first two entries are interesting!


----------



## hefe

smak said:


> I'm not a scientist, but my take on that is that being at one of the earth's magnetic poles would be the best place to check for electromagnetic disruptions across the earth.


For reference:
North magnetic pole: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.ad...c=60&longdeg=-113&longmin=24&longsec=0&zoom=5

South magnetic pole: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.ad...tsec=0&longdeg=138&longmin=0&longsec=0&zoom=5


----------



## Skittles

cwoody222 said:


> Why did they choose Kate, Jack and Sawyer specifically?


I suspect it's partially because Kate, Jack, and Sawyer are the three people on the island to have extensive dealings with The Hostiles, and because they're the three folks out of all the 815'ers that will be easily persuaded to join the cause of The Hostiles.

Henry's comment about how they were the good guys, and the organization of The Hostiles, makes me think they're an anti-Dharma coalition, and that they're trying to stop all the experiments on the island. That includes the psychological warfare that Dharma is exposing the 815'ers to.


----------



## cwoody222

NYDR27 said:


> I can't wait until next season. Does anyone know when it will start again?


Um, like 99% of major network show hit shows like Lost... in September.


----------



## Jeeters

Fish Man said:


> Also, I suspect that the island naturally has some strange electromagnetic characteristics. "Locke's/Eko's hatch" was some sort of attempt to "harness" that electromagnetic phenomenon. By "destroying" the hatch, Desmond let the EM properties of the island to go back to their "natural" state. But, that "natural" state is still extraordinary in some way.


Yes, that's what Kelvin told Desmond when Desmond found him drunk with the key. When Desmon asked what was behind the concrete wall, Kelvin said "Electromagnetism. Geologically unique."


----------



## Bradc314

lostinplace said:


> Nice touch, how Desmond HUME and John LOCKE end up together in the hatch at the end.


David Hume was born in Edinburgh, Scotland, in 1711.


----------



## cwoody222

Skittles said:


> I suspect it's partially because Kate, Jack, and Sawyer are the three people on the island to have extensive dealings with The Hostiles, and because they're the three folks out of all the 815'ers that will be easily persuaded to join the cause of The Hostiles.


Makes sense.

But - other than their names - how would the Others know about that much about them? (such as if they'd be easily persuaded to join them)

Was that Henry's mission all along... to gather intelligence?

Or have the Others been spying on them more than we know?

(of course, the REAL reason they were picked is because they're the principal players on the show  )


----------



## tmissey

So, who all will be returning next season? In my opinion they seemed to have lost alot of the key cast this season.


----------



## cwoody222

I can't wait until I get home tonight to re-watch the scene...

At the very end, in the winter-weather station... did they tell Penny that they found "it" or "him"?


----------



## cwoody222

tmissey said:


> So, who all will be returning next season? In my opinion they seemed to have lost alot of the key cast this season.


There has been NO rumors whatsoever that Eko, Locke, Michael or Walt won't be returning.

Walt will most likely stay a recurring character like he was this year.

The producers have said in the past that Walt is important to the show and they're not that worried about his growth to write him off or anything. They can deal with it.


----------



## jubrand

Damn, that was a lot of posts to read. Hopefully I didn't miss anything and smeek. Couple of thoughts.

1) Anyone else geek out and think of Spock in the reactor room when Desmond was turning the key?

2) The big meltdown (magnetic, not thermonuclear, genius) happened almost at 108 minutes into the show. I have that little backdoor turned on with the minute counter, and we actually went into commercial for the exact 108th minute, but it was close. 

3) As for automating the button....they could have been worried that all the magnetism could possibly knock out any automation, so they used people. Doesn't explain why they bothered to make it a complex code though instead of just a single button.

4) People say those magnetic bracelets cure their aches and pains, maybe a giant EM force like this can cure more.......


----------



## Sparty99

cwoody222 said:


> I can't wait until I get home tonight to re-watch the scene...
> 
> At the very end, in the winter-weather station... did they tell Penny that they found "it" or "him"?


They said "it". I specifically went back and listened to that one twice.


----------



## jubrand

cwoody222 said:


> I can't wait until I get home tonight to re-watch the scene...
> 
> At the very end, in the winter-weather station... did they tell Penny that they found "it" or "him"?


"It"


----------



## mwhip

cwoody222 said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> But - other than their names - how would the Others know about that much about them? (such as if they'd be easily persuaded to join them)
> 
> Was that Henry's mission all along... to gather intelligence?
> 
> Or have the Others been spying on them more than we know?
> 
> (of course, the REAL reason they were picked is because they're the principal players on the show  )


Is it possible that Henry really got trapped by Rousseu? I doubt it because they probably never travel alone.

Also at the beginning of the season when they were traveling back to the other side of the island who were the people walking through the jungle with the kids?


----------



## Skittles

cwoody222 said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> But - other than their names - how would the Others know about that much about them? (such as if they'd be easily persuaded to join them)


I suspect they got much of their information from Ethan. He was in the camp long enough to notice everyone and gather intelligence. And I wouldn't be surprised if he got a few glances at the passenger manifest, either.



> Was that Henry's mission all along... to gather intelligence?
> 
> Or have the Others been spying on them more than we know?


I suspect it's both, actually. Everything we've seen of The Others/The Hostiles has shown they always travel in groups, and never alone. It's very likely that Henry allowed himself to get captured, to learn more about the 815'ers.

And The Hostiles have definitely shown that they're keeping an eye on the 815'ers, and that they're very knowledgable of the island's layout and geography. It's not implausible to think they've been spying.


----------



## Jeeters

cwoody222 said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> But - other than their names - how would the Others know about that much about them? (such as if they'd be easily persuaded to join them)
> 
> Was that Henry's mission all along... to gather intelligence?
> 
> Or have the Others been spying on them more than we know?


They could have observed lots on these particular characters due to the surveillance cameras in the hatch, assuming they know about the Pearl hatch. Henry might just have been there as a catalyst to provoke them so their subsequent behavior could then be watched. Perhaps some of the actions and statements down in the hatch caused these particular people to get chosen for 'whatever', and the other usual hatch visitors like Sayid and Locke to not get chosen.


----------



## flyers088

cheesesteak said:


> Bad day for Locke. Was primarily responsible for Desmond's death.


Maybe it was the Sacrifice the island demanded??


----------



## Magister

mwhip said:


> I go to bed and we are at 2 pages I get up and come to work and we are at 9!!!!
> 
> I skimmed but have we talked about the 2 guys in the hatch that were drew the map? Were they exploring the island and that is how they came up with it? Have they been stationed in other hatches? How come the others never bothered them? Or did they and that is why they have the arsenal in the hatch.
> 
> And my new theory after talking with a friend about his theories.
> 
> The Others = Green Peace or anti Dharma people
> Ethan Rhom = Dharma people
> Losties = well losties still trying to make sense of it all


Ethan was with the 'others' in the medical hatch during Claires flashbacks. So he is definatly with them.


----------



## nataylor

cwoody222 said:


> http://www.widmoregroup.com/news.htm
> 
> The first two entries are interesting!


That's a fake site. Well, it's real in that it exists, but fake in that it does not come from ABC or the producers of Lost.


----------



## murrays

Jeeters said:


> Henry might just have been there as a catalyst to provoke them so their subsequent behavior could then be watched.


If Henry is in charge as it appears, it would be pretty risky for him to intend to get captured rather than one of the lesser 'others'.

-murray


----------



## vtfan99

flyers088 said:


> Maybe it was the Sacrifice the island demanded??


Who says hes dead?


----------



## thenightfly42

When they played the first Desmond flashback, I immediately assumed that he would die before the episode was over, based on the Ana-Lucia and Shannon flashbacks from earlier this season. We still don't know if that is correct, but based on how far up the Swan's Quarantine hatch was blown, I'm assuming that Desmond, Locke, and Eko are all dead.


----------



## Guindalf

I think it's safe to assume that it's not safe to assume ANYTHING with this show.


----------



## mask2343

mwhip said:


> And my new theory after talking with a friend about his theories.
> 
> The Others = Green Peace or anti Dharma people
> Ethan Rhom = Dharma people
> Losties = well losties still trying to make sense of it all


Ethan Rom was seen with Tom (or Zeke, or the bearded man) in the episode where they show what happened to Claire. I think it is safe to say that the Others and Ethan are in the SAME group.

I think they are all Dharma people. That would explain the technology they have and the food drops continuing. Dharma just thinks that their research is saving the world.

I love it that Henry Gale is in charge...someone called it weeks ago. Kudos to whoever that was.


----------



## mitchb2

The ending: does this mean that Penelope is funding a search for Desmond, or does it mean that she's part of "the big picture" ?


----------



## dswallow

Guindalf said:


> I think it's safe to assume that it's not safe to assume ANYTHING with this show.


So if it's not safe to assume that, then we can assume that it might be safe to assume things.


----------



## Skittles

mitchb2 said:


> The ending: does this mean that Penelope is funding a search for Desmond, or does it mean that she's part of "the big picture" ?


I took it to mean she's funding the search for Desmond and the island, especially considering the writers made a big point of having her tell Desmond (in his flashback) that anything/anyone can be found if you have enough money.


----------



## cwoody222

Jeeters said:


> They could have observed lots on these particular characters due to the surveillance cameras in the hatch, assuming they know about the Pearl hatch.


Did the cameras have sound?

I'm more inclined to think what others have said that Ethan learned much during his time with the Losties. I had forgotten that Ethan was with Tom and Alex in the Medical Hatch with Claire so I didn't think Ethan was with the Other.

So if there are actually Hostiles, have we met any?


----------



## cherry ghost

danplaysbass said:


> Nobody has mentioned the incredible sound effects this episode had. I only wish I could have watched this in HD with 5.1 sound.


I was actually disappointed with the 5.1. The electromagnetic blast scene was mostly center channel when heavy bass would have been much better. The sound guys blew it with this one.


----------



## sushikitten

Did anyone see the violet sky? I heard the references (on the show and here) but I don't remember physically seeing it. All I remember was the bright white sky.


----------



## Jeeters

thenightfly42 said:


> ...based on how far up the Swan's Quarantine hatch was blown, I'm assuming that Desmond, Locke, and Eko are all dead.


The hatch cover might not have been blown upwards by explosive force. It could have been magetic force propelling it upwards.


----------



## brott

The thing that sticks the most in my head is Desmond saying "See you in another life, Brother" as he goes to turn the key. This is the same thing that Desmond stated to Jack in the Stadium at the beginning of the season. I am really beginning to think that "the incident" set off some kind of groundhog-day like scenerio where the Island is stuck in some sort of time-loop.


----------



## sushikitten

Jeeters said:


> The hatch cover might not have been blown upwards by explosive force. It could have been magetic force propelling it upwards.


Yeah, that's what I said a ways back. Except I said maybe the electromagnetic force repelled everything when the key was turned.


----------



## pmyers

3 comments:


It was nice to get confirmation that the Losties actually DO share information. Obviously Kate had told them about the medical hatch and fake beards before...she was just reminding them.

Sayid's plan: Why would he come up with this great plan to sail ahead of Jack WHEN HE HAD NO IDEA HOW TO SAIL?!?

Those voices in the field were very strange. Anybody got a list of the names they were saying?


----------



## skanter

From today's NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/25/arts/television/25lost.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Dickens, Challah and That Mysterious Island
Mario Perez/ABC

Article Tools Sponsored By
By KATE AURTHUR
Published: May 25, 2006

On last night's "Lost," which closed the island mystery's second season on ABC, a crucial plot development hinged on a copy of the Charles Dickens novel "Our Mutual Friend." (Readers who do not wish to know the particulars of the finale should stop here.)

In a flashback Desmond (Henry Ian Cusick), the character "Lost" viewers know as the man who lived down the hatch, tells a prison guard that he carries around "Our Mutual Friend" because he means for it to be the last book he reads before dying. Later, on the island, when Desmond thinks that death is near, he finds a letter inside the book from the love of his life, Penny. Her letter inspires him to go on an apparent suicide mission to save the island and, the episode implied, possibly the world.

During a visit to New York City last week, Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse, the executive producers who run "Lost," said they got the idea of the deathbed reading of "Our Mutual Friend" from an interview with the writer John Irving in which he said he was saving it for last. But besides paying tribute to Mr. Irving, they were eager to refer to Dickens for their own narrative purposes.

"He was writing chapter by chapter for newspapers," Mr. Cuse said. "We often think: 'How much did Dickens know when he was writing his stories? How much of it was planned out, and how much was flying by the seat of his pants because he had to get another chapter in?' " He paused, then said with a laugh, "We can respect what he went through."

More remarkable than the size of "Lost's" audience, which averages 15.3 million viewers, is its devotion. The show has inspired endless Internet chatter and solicits participation by viewers, who play its popular multiplatorm game, the Lost Experience. When Mr. Cuse and Mr. Lindelof began the writing process for this year's closing episode, they knew that a large number of fervent fans were bitterly disappointed in the Season 1 finale. The big twist in that episode was the kidnapping of 10-year-old Walt (Malcolm David Kelley) by the island's sinister inhabitants, known as the Others, who lived there before the plane crash that began the show. The writers had worked hard to keep Walt's abduction a secret from Internet spoiler sites, nicknaming the scene "the bagel" so as not to let its contents casually slip. (This year's shocker was dubbed "the challah.")

That genuinely surprising turn did not end the Season 1 finale however. Instead, in its final moments, the mystical Locke (Terry O'Quinn) and the practical Jack (Matthew Fox) stared down into a mysterious hatch Locke had found earlier in the season and had been trying to open. But fans were annoyed: what could possibly be down the hatch that would be worth a four-month wait?

When that finale was broadcast, Mr. Lindelof was in Hawaii about to be married. "We felt everybody was satisfied and psyched," he said. "It never occurred to us that the backlash was going to begin."

Mr. Cuse said: "There started to be Internet chatter. We take that feedback to heart. By the time August rolled around, the spin on it was everybody's frustrated that we didn't go into the hatch."

The Season 2 premiere tried to remedy that frustration immediately. In the hatch was Desmond, who had been stranded on the island three years earlier. There were also plentiful provisions, retro furniture and, most important, a button that needed to be pushed every 108 minutes to dispel a powerful electromagnetic charge that could lead to catastrophic consequences.

When talking about the construction of "Lost," Mr. Lindelof and Mr. Cuse often refer to the Harry Potter books. They want each season, like each book in J. K. Rowling's series, to pose questions and answer them while at the same time maintaining a larger mystery that holds the audience. "This season's story was about the hatch," Mr. Cuse said. "We were very conscious of trying to make the end of the season more satisfying than last year. We wanted to answer a lot of questions."

Last night's episode solved two significant "Lost" puzzles, which turned out to be related. What would happen when the button wasn't pushed? (There was a huge explosion, and if Desmond had not activated a backup system, Mr. Cuse said, "It might have led to, ultimately, sucking everything on earth into itself.") And what crashed the castaways' plane? (It was a casualty of the only other instance when the button was not pushed on time.)

Because they don't know how long the show will run, Mr. Lindelof and Mr. Cuse have to pace its revelations. "If you answer too many questions, the audience doesn't have anything to care about on the show anymore," Mr. Cuse said. "We had to end the show with a powerful mystery that suggested what the show was going to be about next year and would leave the audience curious about where we're going."

Ratings suffered as the season progressed. In response to complaints from both viewers and the show's creators, next season ABC will run the show in two uninterrupted segments, without reruns that stop its flow. But its biggest problem was the return of Fox's "American Idol" in January at the same time on Wednesday nights. Before then, original episodes of "Lost" delivered 21.5 million viewers; after, they brought in 16.5 million (and repeats fared poorly all season).

As for next season, the scene that Mr. Lindelof and Mr. Cuse called "the challah" offered a preview. In the final minutes of last night's episode, the action on the island has ended, but in a coda that took place in unfamiliar settings, Penny, Desmond's wealthy, long-lost girlfriend, was told, "I think we found it." The implication viewers were left with was that the explosion on the island finally made it visible, at least temporarily, to someone desperately looking for it.

Will a rescue effort be a part of Season 3? Mr. Lindelof and Mr. Cuse would not say but allowed that if this season was about the hatch, next season will be about the Others, as led by the oblique Henry Gale (played by Michael Emerson, who will join the regular cast). Mr. Cuse listed what viewers will learn about the Others by this time next year: "Who are these people? How many of them are there? What is their history? What are they trying to accomplish?"

Beyond serving as a teaser, the finale's last minutes were incredibly important to the larger story, Mr. Lindelof said, particularly since this was the first time in 49 hours of the show that "Lost" went off the island in the present, rather than in a flashback. "It's time to actually blow up several theories of the show," he said. "People who believe that they're in purgatory or that they're subjects of an experiment are going to start reassessing those theories based on the fact that we are literally showing you the outside world."


----------



## mitchb2

brott said:


> I am really beginning to think that "the incident" set off some kind of groundhog-day like scenerio where the Island is stuck in some sort of time-loop.


Interesting!


----------



## JYoung

cheesesteak said:


> Don't know what the point of Claire kissing Charlie was. Didn't like that at all.


From what we've seen, Claire doesn't exactly pick the best men.



Fish Man said:


> This was the reason Picard's fate was left ambiguous at the end of Season 3 of Star Trek: The Next Generation. They weren't sure they could get Patrick Stewart back for the next season! Of course, in the case of TNG and Lost, it makes for a hellova season-end cliffhanger!


I believe that's been debunked.


----------



## TR7spyder

I do no think that we found the REAL reason for the plane crush. Desmond missing his turn to punch in the number was way too random to have downed this particular plane, which was loaded with people connected to the island.



Ruth said:


> I wonder maybe if Desmond's boat has some sort of homing device that brings it specifically to the island, or to giant magnets or whatever. If Pen knew he had a boat that would bring him to a location with those features, it would explain why she is tracking that activity. It would also explain why Desmond couldn't use the boat to escape from the island.


So Libby could have been a plant, whos only purpose was to give Desmond this special boat. But doesnt this seem like an awful lot of trouble to get rid of daughters undesirable boyfriend? Her father appeared like someone who could have had resources to make him disappear in much more conventional manner (Sopranos anyone?).



philw1776 said:


> You don't realy think that Hollywood writers know anything about high school science do you? They're the artsy types.


You mean the type of people who usually use MACs and think that computer brain is alway in the monitor? 



NYDR27 said:


> Why does everyone keep saying that what happened on the island was a thermonuclear blast?


It was mentioned before, but it was only one person, with questionable motivation who brought it up. But I can see two reasons to assume that this was a thermonuclear blast:

1. Isnt that what is often used in the movies as means for self-destruct mechanism?
2. The flash, which accompanies the nuclear blast.

Having said that, there are many reasons why it probably wasnt one:

1. No shock-waive
2. Survivors in the vicinity of the epicenter. 
3. The fact that they still have to live on this island, which would have been contaminated by radioactive material. And there is no vaccine to protect you from such fallout 



Jeeters said:


> They could have observed lots on these particular characters due to the surveillance cameras in the hatch, assuming they know about the Pearl hatch.


Why would they go to Pearl hatch? There is clearly ANOTHER hatch (or some other facility) that monitors Perl hatch. As demonstrated by the fact that Pearl hatch itself had survalance cameras. This suggests that whoever is in this other hatch, can monitor BOTH other hatches (and probably much more).


----------



## mqpickles

hefe said:


> I was racking my brain trying to remember where I saw the actress whe played Penelope recently.
> 
> She is Sonya Walger, and was on a recent episode of Numb3rs.


Thanks, Hefe. I was trying to remember where I had seen her. In my case, it was The Librarian, which is a cute movie starring the cute Noah Wyle.


----------



## Guindalf

Anyone considered the possibility that the magnetic field is some sort of "cloaking device"? I'm not talking Star Trek, but something that could use the magnetism to bend light around the island, making it invisible to the outside world and therefore Penny needed a research monitoring station to find it?

That would explain the lack of aircraft and ships passing, as well as the compass causing Desmond to sail in a circle. It would also explain why they suddenly found it.


----------



## RangersRBack

Wow. Amazing finale, blew away last year's finale by a mile. I was on the edge of my couch the whole two hours.

Random thoughts:

"Let's Roll" - Very bad choice for a line of dialogue. I know this was/is an important mission for all the losties, but the writers should respect that fact that that line comes from a real-life hero who saved countless lives while giving up his own and all of those on Flight 93. Do not ever trivialize it, and if you think you're paying some sort of homage to it, you're not. 

Loved Sayid's subdued reaction to the big foot statue - "I don't know what's more disconcerting, the size of it or the fact it has four toes" - not verbatim I'm sure, but that's how I remember it, anyway.

First time we saw Sayid in prayer? Interesting.

What happened to Sayid (and Jin and Sun)? Was he just too far away to help, or is he perhaps waiting to see where they take the fab three before he goes Rambo? What happened to Jin, why wasn't he with Sayid doing a re-con of the abandoned camp?

Charlie's actions after the 'incident' were bizarre, but he's been bizarre for a while.

The Others/Hostiles didn't seem fazed by the 'incident' once they got over the ear-piercing part of it. Then again, neither did the losties!

Very interesting character that Desmond. I agree with those who said it may have been prudent to tell Locke that despite what Locke found in the Pearl, that he did see the beginning of an 'incident' when he barely got the numbers in on time, and at the very least SOMETHING is going to happen.

Not sure about Henry saying they're the 'good guys'. Assuming the two people who were following our friends were part of Henry's group, one was shot and killed. That's not good.

The Hurleybird was wacky - probably something we'll never find out about but speculate about for the next three years anyway.

Assuming Locke survived the 'incident', I'm not sure where his character is headed next. He seems to be superflous to the main story right now.


----------



## Ereth

jenhudson said:


> Did anyone see the violet sky? I heard the references (on the show and here) but I don't remember physically seeing it. All I remember was the bright white sky.


It didn't look violet to me, either. Mostly very bright white. "Don't look at it" bright.


----------



## zordude

stalemate said:


> I took "Live Together, Die Alone" to mean "Together we will live, but alone we will die" in this context.


It's kind of a stretch, but the 2 guys that were following them split up when one of them got shot, and he died. He wasn't exactly alone, but he was with "the enemy".

Z


----------



## murrays

NY Times said:


> As for next season, the scene that Mr. Lindelof and Mr. Cuse called "the challah" offered a preview. In the final minutes of last night's episode, the action on the island has ended, but in a coda that took place in unfamiliar settings, Penny, Desmond's wealthy, long-lost girlfriend, was told, "I think we found it." The implication viewers were left with was that the explosion on the island finally *made it visible, at least temporarily, to someone desperately looking for it*.


Just a thought, what if the island has/had some sort of force field dome around it? Perhaps the plane crashed into it either accidentally or while coming in for a landing and having the field disrupted by not pushing the button. The violet or bright sky could be the dome being destroyed.

Other thoughts:

Not sure if it was mentioned, but the arctic guys missed the first electromagnetic anomaly so it wasnt the explosion that caused it.

We didnt get to see much of the outside world, just an outpost and a bedroom, though the bedroom looked pretty normal if there had been some sort of global catastrophe a couple months earlier.

-murray


----------



## Ladd Morse

I noted one event that most likely doesn't have anything to do with anything; it's just a script hole:

After Desmond followed Kelvin to the cove where the boat was being restored and Kelvin was accidently killed, Desmond raced back to the hatch knowing he needed to enter the reset code. He got there AFTER the countdown timer had reached zero (the counter showed red hieroglyphs and the magnetic storm was starting up).

He was able to run directly into the control room, yet we've been shown that the blast doors drop down when the counter hits zero.

I'm sure this was done for "action/tension/drama" purposes, but it caught my eye.


----------



## murrays

Guindalf said:


> Anyone considered the possibility that the magnetic field is some sort of "cloaking device"? I'm not talking Star Trek, but something that could use the magnetism to bend light around the island, making it invisible to the outside world and therefore Penny needed a research monitoring station to find it?


Must...type...faster 

-murray


----------



## Lee L

Ladd Morse said:


> I noted one event that most likely doesn't have anything to do with anything; it's just a script hole:
> 
> After Desmond followed Kelvin to the cove where the boat was being restored and Kelvin was accidently killed, Desmond raced back to the hatch knowing he needed to enter the reset code. He got there AFTER the countdown timer had reached zero (the counter showed red hieroglyphs and the magnetic storm was starting up).
> 
> He was able to run directly into the control room, yet we've been shown that the blast doors drop down when the counter hits zero.
> 
> I'm sure this was done for "action/tension/drama" purposes, but it caught my eye.


Actually, AFAICT the blast doors come down during a "lockdown", which of course usually happens whenver there is a supply drop.

They do not come down during the 108 countdown unless a lockdown is occuring.


----------



## bro1ncos

Ladd Morse said:


> I noted one event that most likely doesn't have anything to do with anything; it's just a script hole:
> 
> After Desmond followed Kelvin to the cove where the boat was being restored and Kelvin was accidently killed, Desmond raced back to the hatch knowing he needed to enter the reset code. He got there AFTER the countdown timer had reached zero (the counter showed red hieroglyphs and the magnetic storm was starting up).
> 
> He was able to run directly into the control room, yet we've been shown that the blast doors drop down when the counter hits zero.
> 
> I'm sure this was done for "action/tension/drama" purposes, but it caught my eye.


But, we know the computer is outside the blast doors since Henry had to go to the vents to get to the computer when Locke was trapped.


----------



## ireland967

What did Desmond expect to accomplish by winning Pen's father's around the world race? I don't think he has a shot at getting his respect anytime soon. Did I miss any clues on why Desmond was in the military prison, or for how long?

While Michael and the four were in the jungle, right before being captured you could clearly hear an echoed voice say Elizabeth.

Curious why Hurley was chosen as the messenger.


----------



## stalemate

RangersRBack said:


> "Let's Roll" - Very bad choice for a line of dialogue. I know this was/is an important mission for all the losties, but the writers should respect that fact that that line comes from a real-life hero who saved countless lives while giving up his own and all of those on Flight 93. Do not ever trivialize it, and if you think you're paying some sort of homage to it, you're not.


I didn't take it that way AT ALL. The line doesn't "come from" a real-life hero. "Let's Roll" had been used long before Flight 93 and I don't think it should be removed from our lexicon just because it was used by someone on Flight 93. He did not coin the phrase.

I never even considered the connection to Flight 93 until I read your post.


----------



## murrays

RangersRBack said:


> What happened to Sayid (and Jin and Sun)? Was he just too far away to help, or is he perhaps waiting to see where they take the fab three before he goes Rambo? What happened to Jin, why wasn't he with Sayid doing a re-con of the abandoned camp?


Another question, who made the black smoke because Sayid appeared to be on the boat during the violet sky? I guess there was time to return to the boat after the capture.

-murray


----------



## Jeeters

RangersRBack said:


> "Let's Roll" - Very bad choice for a line of dialogue. I know this was/is an important mission for all the losties, but the writers should respect that fact that that line comes from a real-life hero who saved countless lives while giving up his own and all of those on Flight 93. Do not ever trivialize it, and if you think you're paying some sort of homage to it, you're not.


That line existed long before Flight 93 went down. Sorry but is the rest of the world supposed to 'retire it' like a retiring pro athelete's jersey number or something? Is every subsequent use of it now an 'homage'?


----------



## vtfan99

murrays said:


> Not sure if it was mentioned, but the arctic guys missed the first electromagnetic anomaly so it wasnt the explosion that caused it.


The "explosion" did cause it. The one they missed was when Desmond didn't hit the button in time and brought down the plane.

Also, in the above posted newspaper article they mention Desmond "turning on a backup system". Whats that all about? Does that mean there was no destruction of the hatch and his turning of the key brought the electromagnetism back under control (thus bringing an abrupt end to the white light)? So Eko, Locke, and Desmond are all alive? Or is the writer simply postulating here? Interesting


----------



## Fish Man

jenhudson said:


> Did anyone see the violet sky? I heard the references (on the show and here) but I don't remember physically seeing it. All I remember was the bright white sky.


A non-tube TV is your friend here. (I watch on an LCD flat-panel type TV.)

The video was severely oversaturated (a common technique to make something appear blindingly bright).

But, the hue on my TV was distinctly purple.

It was so bright, though that I'd describe it as "lavender" or "lilac" rather than "violet".

But what does a straight guy in his 40's know about the subtleties of color description!


----------



## bro1ncos

A few of my observations after watching the show once:

Was the drug plane brought down due to another EM anomaly that occured on Kelvin or someone else's watch?

I find it odd that theOthers did not react to the noise and sky and having no surprise when it ended. They acted like they knew what was happening via prior experience.

Is there another plane coming down with the new EM anomaly that we will see next season?

It is amazing how much the Losties could have found out if they had someone circumnavigate the island when they first landed there. Could have possibly found Demond's boat, the Other's (fake?) camp, the boat dock.

As for the comments Henry made about "we got more then we bargained for from Walt." I took it to mean they got more information then they were expecting, and not that they couldn't handle Walt.

Planning on watching the show again tonight to see anything new and what has been talked about here that I missed.


----------



## mqpickles

BeanMeScot said:


> Doubtful. It would be pretty silly to name your kids Charles and Chuck. Besides, we saw in the show how upset she was about her husband's death. It doesn't take much imagination to have her get so depressed she had to be hospitalized. She didn't seem agitated at the hospital. Depression would fit the way she was acting.


I think more like catatonic, like she had been very heavily medicated.


----------



## Fish Man

Jeeters said:


> The hatch cover might not have been blown upwards by explosive force. It could have been magetic force propelling it upwards.


I agree.

This hypothesis is supported by the fact that there was *NEVER* any "kaboom" sound on the soundtrack. There were only loud humming/grinding/throbbing noises during the time the phenomenon was taking place.

This is consistent with it being a massive magnetic pulse, not an explosion.

This leaves open the possibility that Locke, Eko, and possibly even Desmond are, in fact, still alive.


----------



## murrays

vtfan99 said:


> The "explosion" did cause it. The one they missed was when Desmond didn't hit the button in time and brought down the plane.


The fact that the late button pressing caused the one they missed means that the EA existed without an explosion.

Good thought on the key bringing the "violet sky" back under control, though that kind of messes with the timing while showing those outside the hatch.

-murray


----------



## RangersRBack

Jeeters said:


> That line existed long before Flight 93 went down. Sorry but is the rest of the world supposed to 'retire it' like a retiring pro athelete's jersey number or something? Is every subsequent use of it now an 'homage'?


I don't want to hijack this thread because the finale was an amazing experience and I only have a problem with two words of dialogue.

Having said that, this is important enough to re-state.

While those two words existed, of course, before 9/11, they have now taken on a completely new meaning for American citizens.

It's not like the words can never be spoken again, but to be used by a character on a fictionalized TV show, who is about to embark on a fictionalized life or death mission, hits a little too close to home for me.


----------



## jradford

I guess I'm confused by the turning of the key.

What does the key do that pushing the buttons _doesn't_ do? In the flashback, we saw Kelvin about to turn it and going on about how he's just going to "end it." I understand why you have the failsafe in case of a "system breakdown," but what would it have done had Kelving turned it when there was no breakdown?


----------



## jking

bro1ncos said:


> But, we know the computer is outside the blast doors since Henry had to go to the vents to get to the computer when Locke was trapped.


But we also know that the computer is behind some kind of a blast door because Eko spent most of this episode locked out of the computer room.


----------



## scottykempf

No one else mentioned this. On the dock, you can see a sign on the little roof that says Pala Ferry. This was referenced in the second orientation video, its where they would go to be picked up. 


Let's Roll..... I have heard this many times before 9/11 and many times after. It's just words. That's like saying that you can never say "Praise Allah" again because the hijackers said that. Sorry, I don't want to start a political or cultural diatribe in a Lost thread, just sharing my feelings.


----------



## lordargent

mask2343 said:


> This doesn't explain how the engine was still running after falling off the wing though


Magnets 



Fish Man said:


> An EM pulse could *not* pull an aluminum passenger plane out of the sky.


How much of a passenger plane is aluminum? Wouldn't there be some iron in some places. Perhaps in the engines? Maybe the engines just got yanked off.



jking said:


> But we also know that the computer is behind some kind of a blast door because Eko spent most of this episode locked out of the computer room.


In this episode, they showed two blast doors coming down. There may be multiple blast doors that seal off different areas.


----------



## Fish Man

jradford said:


> I guess I'm confused by the turning of the key.
> 
> What does the key do that pushing the buttons _doesn't_ do? In the flashback, we saw Kelvin about to turn it and going on about how he's just going to "end it." I understand why you have the failsafe in case of a "system breakdown," but what would it have done had Kelving turned it when there was no breakdown?


I've mentioned this in a previous post, but here is my interpretation FWIW:

The hatch was originally built to "harness" a naturally occurring electromagnetic phenomenon in some way.

This attempt to harness the electromagnetic effect had some defect or unintended side-effects (the "incident").

The "button pressing" averted the undesirable "side effect" of the EM harnessing equipment. This side effect, if left unchecked, led to some catastrophic, perhaps world-wide, result.

"Turning the key" destroyed the harnessing equipment and shut down the system in a semi-controlled but still somewhat violent way. The result of "turning the key" was less catastrophic than failing to push the button, but destroyed the equipment, letting the naturally occurring EM phenomenon return to it's natural state.


----------



## Charon2

LIbby has, or at least had, tons of money, so there goes the theory that she was into Hurley just for the money. She could have honestly liked him. I know the Libby haters will say perhaps she lost the money, putting her into the instution and she was then after Hurley to get money back, but I doubt it.
Wouldn't that boat cost a heck of a lot more than $43,000? Perhaps with another zero or so. Perhaps an old used sailboat may go for that.
Add me to the list who don't believe the EM brought the plane down, not just for the fact that the plane doesn't have enough metal. That would have made it impossible to survive, not to mention all the other problems mentioned.
I also thought the Winter scene (did it say it was the Artic or Antartic?) was a commercial until I saw the ABC bug in the corner.
Not sure what to make of Charlie in this episode. 
Spectacular episode, I can't wait for September and for ABC to show the show in two block rather than bunch of blocks. That will make it easier to keep track of what is going on.


----------



## jking

jradford said:


> I guess I'm confused by the turning of the key.
> 
> What does the key do that pushing the buttons _doesn't_ do? In the flashback, we saw Kelvin about to turn it and going on about how he's just going to "end it." I understand why you have the failsafe in case of a "system breakdown," but what would it have done had Kelving turned it when there was no breakdown?


Only watched the ep once, so I might be totally wrong in this, but what I gathered is that turning the key would somehow permanently stop whatever electromagnetic buildup was occuring, eliminating the need for pushing the button, but possibly with other, unknown consequences.

Makes me wonder if the turn of the key could have fixed the problem with the electromagnetic buildup the whole time, but someone wanted the buildup to continue to occur over and over so that they could study it or possibly use it for some unknown purpose. This might explain why the computer wasn't unlocked to input the code until 4 minutes remaining, to allow for a certain amount of buildup to occur.

I'm confused by the fact that last season Walt's message was 'don't push the button, the button is bad', but this season Eko's brother told Eko that the work in the hatch was very important, and we all just witnessed what happens when you don't push the button, making it seem like pushing the button was the right thing to do.


----------



## nedthelab

Bottom line, if a Jumbo jet breaks up at crusing altitude (40K feet) no one, no one will survive period.....so someone needs to do some esplaning (pun intended)


----------



## hefe

What kind of geological electromagnetism needs to be "vented?"

And how do you vent electromagnetism, anyway?


----------



## hefe

Charon2 said:


> I also thought the Winter scene (did it say it was the Artic or Antartic?) ...


It didn't say either.


----------



## 5thcrewman

emandbri said:


> I think it means that Claire is very sexual person and it has been too long.
> 
> Emily


Does that projector display 1080p?


----------



## jeff125va

Charon2 said:


> I also thought the Winter scene (did it say it was the Artic or Antartic?)


Well, we know it was late November. But I don't remember whether it was indoor lighting or sunlight through windows or what. I think by late November there would be no sunlight at any time of day in the arctic.


----------



## lew

I agree completely. I don't associate that phrase with Flight 93.



stalemate said:


> I didn't take it that way AT ALL. The line doesn't "come from" a real-life hero. "Let's Roll" had been used long before Flight 93 and I don't think it should be removed from our lexicon just because it was used by someone on Flight 93. He did not coin the phrase.
> 
> I never even considered the connection to Flight 93 until I read your post.


----------



## getreal

Here's a bit of my speculation:

I wonder if next season starts a couple of years later, and the next time we see Walt he will have caught up with the actor's age. I can't believe that Walt would be written out of the story at this point. Michael should be expendable, but Walt could develop into a major player. Then Aaron would also be a little kid who can talk and we can learn about his powers.

I got the impression that Jack and Kate were silently communicating something significant in their final scenes before getting their heads covered in sacks, and that Sawyer was out of the loop. 

Sayid and Sun & Jin may run across Michael & Walt while out on the water.

I had thought that it was curtains for Eko and Locke and Desmond, but after reading some of the posts here I am reconsidering. Of course, if Stan Lee (Marvel comics) was a writer of Lost, those three would now be irradiated with electromagnetism and come out with super-powers. I just don't wanna see Locke wearing leotards and a cape.


----------



## murrays

jking said:


> I'm confused by the fact that last season Walt's message was 'don't push the button, the button is bad', but this season Eko's brother told Eko that the work in the hatch was very important, and we all just witnessed what happens when you don't push the button, making it seem like pushing the button was the right thing to do.


When did Walt say that? We didn't know about the hatch or the button last season, did we?

Regarding Walt, why didn't they make him older at the start of the show and allow the character to grow into the role? IOW, it would be easier to start with Walt being 16 and use some filming techniques and make-up on a 13 yo actor than to start off with an actor older than the character.

-murray


----------



## cheesesteak

nedthelab said:


> Bottom line, if a Jumbo jet breaks up at crusing altitude (40K feet) no one, no one will survive period.....so someone needs to do some esplaning (pun intended)


How about "It's a tv show"?

Would *you* just give your recently, dear departed ex's sailboat away to someone you just met? I know... "It's a tv show"


----------



## hefe

jeff125va said:


> Well, we know it was late November. But I don't remember whether it was indoor lighting or sunlight through windows or what. I think by late November there would be no sunlight at any time of day in the arctic.


There's also no mountains in the Arctic, they're on some significant land mass.


----------



## hefe

murrays said:


> When did Walt say that? We didn't know about the hatch or the button last season, did we?


No, that was early in this season.


----------



## murrays

getreal said:


> I wonder if next season starts a couple of years later, and the next time we see Walt he will have caught up with the actor's age. I can't believe that Walt would be written out of the story at this point. Michael should be expendable, but Walt could develop into a major player. Then Aaron would also be a little kid who can talk and we can learn about his powers.


Good answer to my question before I even asked it 

A bit more on this speculation, could they have already filmed Walt's flashbacks for next season?

-murray


----------



## PJO1966

lew said:


> I agree completely. I don't associate that phrase with Flight 93.


I have before, and always will associate that phrase with the old Green Hornet TV show...

I didn't find Charlie's behavior strange at the end. Claires either. At the end of the last episode we saw that she was beginning to forgive him (holding his hand at the funeral). He's been desperate to get back into her good graces. She was showing him affection, and he was happy.

This episode wowed me. I loved the remains of the four toed statue (are they on Atlantis?). Locke saying he was wrong... there was just so much.

When Pen showed up just before Locke was about to run the stadium (right after Jack got out of his car) I thought she was Meredith from Grey's Anatomy. I'm glad I was wrong.

The one thing that struck me as the most odd (and I know others have mentioned it) was how the Others went about business as usual after the sky went white (violet) and they were all doubled over from the sound.

Very cool episode... off to watch it in HD...


----------



## Charon2

hefe said:


> It didn't say either.


So all the posts about it being in the Antartic/Artic are pure speculation. I thought perhaps I missed something.



nedthelab said:


> Bottom line, if a Jumbo jet breaks up at crusing altitude (40K feet) no one, no one will survive period.....so someone needs to do some esplaning (pun intended)


Unless you are Vesna Voluvic, who holds the record for falling 33,300 feet after terrorist blew the plane she was on apart. Fell onto a snowy cliff, was paralyzed for a time but is apparently fine now. However, I agree, the has to be more to that story than that.


----------



## smickola

brott said:


> The thing that sticks the most in my head is Desmond saying "See you in another life, Brother" as he goes to turn the key. This is the same thing that Desmond stated to Jack in the Stadium at the beginning of the season. I am really beginning to think that "the incident" set off some kind of groundhog-day like scenerio where the Island is stuck in some sort of time-loop.


Didn't Desmond also say the same thing to Jack after he ran from the hatch?


----------



## tanstaafl

cwoody222 said:


> There has been NO rumors whatsoever that Eko, Locke, Michael or Walt won't be returning.





Spoiler



Harold Perrineau is not a regular for next season. He could be back as a guest star (à la Walt this season) but not as a regular cast member. Source: Kristin on E!Online 
Michael Emerson (Henry Gale) [...] is returning next season as a series regular. Source: The Ausiello Report 
(In Season 3), there will be new locations and new characters (one rumor has Desmond joining the cast full-time, but producers won't comment). Source: Entertainment Weekly


All from http://www.spoilerfix.com/lost.php (Warning: Many spoilers, if the "spoilerfix" domain didn't give it away)

A comment or two. The statue had 4 toes. That's 8 toes total. Assuming four fingers on each hand too, that's 16 total digits. Just covered half the numbers...

The statue made me think Atlantis. (Or Lemuria, since they're in the Pacific. Or maybe R'lyeh for that matter...)

Walt didn't even mention Vincent. Poor Vincent... he's probably the one behind all of this...

And didn't not-Henry say something like "Walt decided to join us"?

So Michael and Walt get rescued... what's he going to tell them? "Yeah, we're the only survivors from flight 815, but we can't tell you where we've been for the past two months or where this boat came from." Yeah, that'll work.

For that matter, if Michael does make it clear he better hope that no one else ever escapes to tell their version of things....


----------



## Jeeters

jeff125va said:


> Well, we know it was late November. But I don't remember whether it was indoor lighting or sunlight through windows or what. I think by late November there would be no sunlight at any time of day in the arctic.


When they first cut to that scene, the view was looking out the station's window. You could see distant, vast snowy/rocky mountains in the far distance; a typical Antarctic scene. (There is no land at the north pole, save for the islands of far northern Canada and Russia, and part of Greenland above the arctic cicle for a ways.) So my guess is Antarctica.


----------



## PJO1966

How come nobody asked if Desmond's boat had a functioning radio?


----------



## Fish Man

Charon2 said:


> LIbby has, or at least had, tons of money, so there goes the theory that she was into Hurley just for the money. She could have honestly liked him. I know the Libby haters will say perhaps she lost the money, putting her into the instution and she was then after Hurley to get money back, but I doubt it.


+1

I've been astounded at the shallowness of all the people who say it's *impossible* for a hot woman to like an overweight man, be it in the world of television or the real world.

Trust me, it happens in the real world, not to mention on TV sitcoms. 

Libby's like for Hurley was genuine, IMHO. However, she was embarrassed about being in the mental hospital, and was praying Hurley would not remember seeing her there.


----------



## Lee L

tanstaafl said:


> So Michael and Walt get rescued... what's he going to tell them? "Yeah, we're the only survivors from flight 815, but we can't tell you where we've been for the past two months or where this boat came from." Yeah, that'll work.


But then again, who would beleive him if he told the truth?


----------



## Ladd Morse

bro1ncos said:


> But, we know the computer is outside the blast doors since Henry had to go to the vents to get to the computer when Locke was trapped.


Locke was trapped in the kitchen area, not the control room, yes? If the computer is outside the blast doors, then why was Ecko prevented by them from getting to the computer to enter the reset code?


----------



## justinkwaugh

As we now know that "pushing the button" actually was an important thing to do, why did Henry lie about it. He told Locke that he didn't push it, and said "This place is a joke John!".


----------



## Fish Man

hefe said:


> There's also no mountains in the Arctic, they're on some significant land mass.


Also, as others have already said, a station in Antarctica, near the south pole, would be an ideal place to locate equipment that detects magnetic anomalies on the earth's surface.

Another place that would have a climate like that, as well as mountain ranges, would be Northern Greenland. But as others have pointed out, north of the Arctic circle in November, there would be no sunlight.

South of the *antarctic circle* there would be sunlight in November.

Ergo: Antarctica, almost beyond any doubt.

EDIT:

Speaking of sunlight: To those who are speculating that the island is not really in the South Pacific, but near a pole:

*BZZZZZZZTT!!* but thank you for playing.

The day/night cycle on the island clearly indicates a near-the-equator location.


----------



## PatW

I set my TiVo to record Lost but it didn't record the all of it. Just the 1st catch-up episode. Went to watch it this morning and its not on my machine. Yuk. Hate these kid of mistakes. thought when I lined up Lost it would do it all as it usually does. Very upset PatW6 here.


----------



## AstroDad

PatW said:


> I set my TiVo to record Lost but it didn't record the all of it. Just the 1st catch-up episode. Went to watch it this morning and its not on my machine. Yuk. Hate these kid of mistakes. thought when I lined up Lost it would do it all as it usually does. Very upset PatW6 here.


I imagine you realize this now, but the recap show was a re-run, they showed it 3 or 4 weeks ago. It was completely seperate from the Finale. May I ask why you don't just have a Season Pass for LOST?


----------



## paulstefano

JYoung said:


> From what we've seen, Claire doesn't exactly pick the best men.
> 
> I believe that's been debunked.


It's possible that the injections Charlie gave Claire have made her see him as a friend again. Remember, in her flashbacks, Ethan was constantly giving her injections, and she was perfectly happy being held against her will.

This would backup the theory that Charlie is working for Dharma or the Others.


----------



## cherry ghost

scottykempf said:


> No one else mentioned this. On the dock, you can see a sign on the little roof that says Pala Ferry. This was referenced in the second orientation video, its where they would go to be picked up.


http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Pala_Ferry


----------



## Guindalf

stalemate said:


> I didn't take it that way AT ALL. The line doesn't "come from" a real-life hero. "Let's Roll" had been used long before Flight 93 and I don't think it should be removed from our lexicon just because it was used by someone on Flight 93. He did not coin the phrase.
> 
> I never even considered the connection to Flight 93 until I read your post.


In fact, I added "and let's be careful out there"!!!!!


----------



## mitchb2

My wife's theory is that the entire thing was (and is) orchestrated by Penelope's father to keep Desmond gone.

I don't buy it, way too much trouble. Although...fun if you can afford it.


----------



## hefe

murrays said:
 

> Good answer to my question before I even asked it
> 
> A bit more on this speculation, could they have already filmed Walt's flashbacks for next season?
> 
> -murray


While that may be possible, I'd say unlikely. Lindeloff said in their last podcast that they had just held their first writers' meeting for season 3.


----------



## Tsiehta

RangersRBack said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread because the finale was an amazing experience and I only have a problem with two words of dialogue.
> 
> Having said that, this is important enough to re-state.
> 
> While those two words existed, of course, before 9/11, they have now taken on a completely new meaning for American citizens.
> 
> It's not like the words can never be spoken again, but to be used by a character on a fictionalized TV show, who is about to embark on a fictionalized life or death mission, hits a little too close to home for me.


Are you one of those people who signed the petition to re-name Peter Jackson's Two Towers movie? Get real.


----------



## bruinfan

Wow, that took a while... btwn work, and reading this, and having to refresh only to find 2 more pages of threads...

I said a while back I couldn't wait to see how they would piss people off in the finale... but they delivered with this finale, huh?

So here's my 4 cents...


nKhona said:


> <Male SOB=On>
> 
> Anyone catch the full on boob grab done to Kate by The Other behind her on the dock?
> 
> <Male SOB=Off>
> 
> Sorry ladies...I just could not resist mentioning that...IBIMB (4 or 5 times)


I totally saw that!! It almost looked like Alex noticed she did that and quickly readjusted.



hefe said:


> Also, recall the Widmore name from a couple places...
> 
> 1. Widmore Construction sign on the Battersea Power Station in London.
> 2. Widmore was the name on Sun's pregnancy test.


Be on the lookout for Widmore Creme filled snacks and Widmore power tools. 



cwoody222 said:


> Why did they choose Kate, Jack and Sawyer specifically?


Last week, Michael made a reference when he went to Jack. He said that it had to be those 4, that they the only ones that know. Jack missed it, but what do they know that makes it so important to have them. Noone talked about it in last week's thread, even after I brought it up. But I think something's there.


Jeeters said:


> That line existed long before Flight 93 went down. Sorry but is the rest of the world supposed to 'retire it' like a retiring pro athelete's jersey number or something? Is every subsequent use of it now an 'homage'?


That's so Curb Your Enthusiasm!!  


bro1ncos said:


> Is there another plane coming down with the new EM anomaly that we will see next season?


When the hatch was flying through the air, I thought it was gonna be an airplane part, maybe a wheel from another plane crash.

And an original thought (hopefully)

Where is Jack from again? What city? It's interesting that Jack, Desmond, Libby, Shannon are all from the same city, and end up in Australia in the same time, and on the same return trip. These are confirmed by past encounters. I can't think of any others that crossed paths in this same city. If they are in LA, since 815 was going to LA (it could be a layover to another city), then ana lucia as well, since she was lapd.


----------



## Jericho Dog

vtfan99 said:


> The "explosion" did cause it. The one they missed was when Desmond didn't hit the button in time and brought down the plane.
> 
> Interesting


They referred to it as a "false alarm". Apparently they started to pick up the EM signal but then it went away beause the button eventulally got pressed.

Kind of hard to miss that last one...
:up:


----------



## Guindalf

PatW said:


> I set my TiVo to record Lost but it didn't record the all of it. Just the 1st catch-up episode. Went to watch it this morning and its not on my machine. Yuk. Hate these kid of mistakes. thought when I lined up Lost it would do it all as it usually does. Very upset PatW6 here.


Head over to abc.com and watch it for free.


----------



## crowfan

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (and if I smeeked, I'm sorry):

When Kelvin pulled Desmond off the beach, he was wearing the yellow suit and mask. We know that Kelvin was aware of the fact that the suit and mask were not needed. 

That leads me to believe that Desmond was pulled to the island on purpose, and that Kelvin knew he was coming. He was wearing the suit and mask as part of his ruse to make Desmond believe that the outside was contaminated. 

Of course, that doesn't explain Kelvin's riddle and the fact that he was hoping that Desmond was his replacement. But I guess that could have been acting. :shrug:


----------



## stevieleej

jkeegan said:


> Hey.. so it turns out that when Jack says "you know I wouldn't have brought you out here without a plan", the scene ends with Sawyer saying "What plan?" and then a scene change.. That heavily implies that Jack filled them in on the plan right then and there.. (I'd even say, possibly including filling in Michael). Maybe we'll find out later that they decided to work together against the others (even involving Michael), and that has something to do with the final head nod between Jack/Kate etc.


I agree with you. There was more to the exchanged looks than 'I love you' - 'Me too'. I would expect that Michael will go find Sayid. As far as the rest of the "plan", I'm not sure what Jack, Kate & Sawyer could do now that their captured.

Were any of you thinking that were going to be taken to a hatch located in the water?


----------



## hefe

bruinfan said:


> Last week, Michael made a reference when he went to Jack. He said that it had to be those 4, that they the only ones that know. Jack missed it, but what do they know that makes it so important to have them. Noone talked about it in last week's thread, even after I brought it up. But I think something's there.


I didn't think the others gave Michael that level of detail. I assumed he was just rationalizing to Jack why it had to be just them. They really didn't give him any ammunition, they just told him to do it.


----------



## cherry ghost

stevieleej said:


> Were any of you thinking that were going to be taken to a hatch located in the water?


With the size of that dock, I thought a sub was going to pop up.


----------



## Lee L

stevieleej said:


> Were any of you thinking that were going to be taken to a hatch located in the water?


I was expecting a giant shark to surface, motor up to the dock and open its jaws to reveal a submarine.


----------



## stevieleej

crowfan said:


> One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (and if I smeeked, I'm sorry):
> 
> When Kelvin pulled Desmond off the beach, he was wearing the yellow suit and mask. We know that Kelvin was aware of the fact that the suit and mask were not needed.
> 
> That leads me to believe that Desmond was pulled to the island on purpose, and that Kelvin knew he was coming. He was wearing the suit and mask as part of his ruse to make Desmond believe that the outside was contaminated.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't explain Kelvin's riddle and the fact that he was hoping that Desmond was his replacement. But I guess that could have been acting. :shrug:


It would also need to be explained why Kelvin continued to live in the hatch for the next two years (I think) with Desmond.


----------



## murrays

Ladd Morse said:


> Locke was trapped in the kitchen area, not the control room, yes? If the computer is outside the blast doors, then why was Ecko prevented by them from getting to the computer to enter the reset code?


How was Desmond so confident that the blast doors would hold? Was there another attack on the hatch?

-murray


----------



## Magister

I think it is very inappropriate to show an aircraft at all. Since there were aircraft involved in 9/11. I also think it is inappropriate that we reference any type of automobiles at all, since we are going through a lot of traffic accidents.

I think it was very poor taste to show foul weather on the show and cause Desmond to wash up on shore, we are too close to the X-mas Tsunami and it is just insensitive to mention anything dealing with it. In fact, I would prefer if it didn't rain on the show anymore. The flooding in NE has killed some people, and they might not like that...

I notice some trees being cut down in this show, don't the producers know that he rainforests are running out? That is just insensitive... Do I need more?


----------



## Bierboy

cheesesteak said:


> ...Whatever happened to Sayid?


I'm only on page 7 of this thread, so I may be smeeking, but, when the key was turned and the shutdown inititated, they cut to various scenes of people holding their hands over their ears. One of the scenes was of Sun and Jin on the sailboat and Sayid was back there with them.


----------



## 5thcrewman

...Or that on 'Family Guy,' Peter's chin looks like BALLS! 
Too close to home for some posters!


----------



## murrays

crowfan said:


> One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (and if I smeeked, I'm sorry):
> 
> When Kelvin pulled Desmond off the beach, he was wearing the yellow suit and mask. We know that Kelvin was aware of the fact that the suit and mask were not needed.
> 
> That leads me to believe that Desmond was pulled to the island on purpose, and that Kelvin knew he was coming. He was wearing the suit and mask as part of his ruse to make Desmond believe that the outside was contaminated.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't explain Kelvin's riddle and the fact that he was hoping that Desmond was his replacement. But I guess that could have been acting. :shrug:


Perhaps the plan was to make the replacement believe the suit was necessary or Kelvin discovered that the suit wasn't necessary after the rescue.

-murray


----------



## stevieleej

Couple of questions... 

Why was Kelvin drawing an 'invisible' map without the florescent lites on? How would he know what he was drawing and where he had previously drawn? Or that it would show up under florescent (or black) light? It would also suggest that he was doing a lot of scouting to find out the information or he was creating this drawing just for fun. 

Bernard's one and only line in the episode bugged me. He asked Charley, "Where's Locke? and Eko?" Eko hadn't been around the beach in a long time. I think it had also been a long time since they were seen together at the beach. Why did he care. It seemed like a forced line just so the writers could get in Charley's response.


----------



## vtfan99

Magister said:


> I think it is very inappropriate to show an aircraft at all. Since there were aircraft involved in 9/11. I also think it is inappropriate that we reference any type of automobiles at all, since we are going through a lot of traffic accidents.
> 
> I think it was very poor taste to show foul weather on the show and cause Desmond to wash up on shore, we are too close to the X-mas Tsunami and it is just insensitive to mention anything dealing with it. In fact, I would prefer if it didn't rain on the show anymore. The flooding in NE has killed some people, and they might not like that...
> 
> I notice some trees being cut down in this show, don't the producers know that he rainforests are running out? That is just insensitive... Do I need more?


Best post I've read in months


----------



## jayross

hefe said:


> I was racking my brain trying to remember where I saw the actress whe played Penelope recently.
> 
> She is Sonya Walger, and was on a recent episode of Numb3rs.


She was also the wife in Mind of a Married Man on HBO a few years back.


----------



## quarkman97

jeff125va said:


> Mine actually saved me during last season's Lost finale when we lost power for close to an hour. Where I needed one (and still haven't gotten around to connecting one) is to my multi-switch. I got the rest of Lost, but since the power was still out at 10:00, it didn't change channels on another tuner and I missed some of whatever show it was supposed to switch to.


I didn't have any battery backups as of last year, but now that's all I ever use.

It was great when the power went out for a second at our place. All the other lights shut off, but we were still watching TV like nothing happened. Especially with Tivo, its something that's useful to have.

We just bought a couple for work that were only $30 at Office Depot. Seem to work just fine.

Oh yeah, great episode, btw.


----------



## Bierboy

cherry ghost said:


> I was actually disappointed with the 5.1. The electromagnetic blast scene was mostly center channel when heavy bass would have been much better. The sound guys blew it with this one.


I agree...."24" is MUCH better with sound dynamics in DD5.1.


----------



## scheckeNYK

well, we theorized that the raft made in S1 was brought back to the island based on currents generated by the undersea hatch. Chances are, if Mike A) doesn't meet up w/Sayid, B) fall into a trap by Henry, he'll C) be pushed back to the island by those same currents. He's not getting away though, that's for sure. Both characters should be back in some capacity.

Of the two Others trailing the 815ers in the woods, one was shot and one escaped. Are they just two incidental people, or will we ever get IDs on them?

I am in the camp that the EM disturbance did not cause the plane crash. The ideas about the composition of the plan make sense. If however, the EM disturbance did cause a plane crash, where's the plane that probably crashed in the pre-1980 "incident?" I saw someone earlier mention that a previous failure to press the button could have crashed the heroine plane, but it always seemed like that happened way after 1980. Perhaps the "incident" is what brought the Others to the island. Maybe their plane crashed into the statue. I guess maybe I am somewhat on the fence about the correlation of the button and plane crashes afterall.


----------



## philw1776

Who made that statue and why? Likely it's just a misleading part of the major league psych-out atmosphere that pervades the island. Phoney beards, phoney huts, phoney hatch entrance. The Pearl as the real psych experiment, at least as we think now.


----------



## sushikitten

scheckeNYK said:


> Of the two Others trailing the 815ers in the woods, one was shot and one escaped. Are they just two incidental people, or will we ever get IDs on them?


My first thought on the one that they shot was it looked like the guy from the orientation flicks. But I'm sure it couldn't be.


----------



## TTitan

Charon2 said:


> Spectacular episode, I can't wait for September and for ABC to show the show in two block rather than bunch of blocks. That will make it easier to keep track of what is going on.


I think you may have to wait longer than September. Amazon.com and tvshowsondvd.com both list the release date of the season two DVDs as October 3rd, which leads me to believe we won't see another new Lost episode till November sweeps.


----------



## scheckeNYK

jenhudson said:


> My first thought on the one that they shot was it looked like the guy from the orientation flicks. But I'm sure it couldn't be.


whoa, thanks for reminding me. i thought the exact same thing when i watched. now that someone else thought it too, i can definitely see it. he looked asian with a short, square-ish haricut. did they just leave him to rot there? surely the escapee will mention the man down and they'll go back to bury him. we may just get that ID yet.


----------



## murrays

scheckeNYK said:


> Of the two Others trailing the 815ers in the woods, one was shot and one escaped. Are they just two incidental people, or will we ever get IDs on them?


We cant be sure the hostles and the others are the same group, plus there is likely some Dahrma/Widmore people on the island.

-murray


----------



## JYoung

jenhudson said:


> My first thought on the one that they shot was it looked like the guy from the orientation flicks. But I'm sure it couldn't be.


You weren't the only one Jen.
I was expecting them to turn over the body and see that it was Candle/Wickman.


----------



## ducker

cheesesteak said:


> How about "It's a tv show"?
> 
> Would *you* just give your recently, dear departed ex's sailboat away to someone you just met? I know... "It's a tv show"


If you're loaded/rich you might... perhaps Libby's role is MUCH larger then many of us thought!


----------



## jkeegan

teknikel said:


> It looks to me like the tank on Kelvins back.


Nope, I thought that too.. if you play on slow through the entire second or two, you see it's clearly not his tank, but something up higher in the trees.


----------



## Sirius Black

ducker said:


> If you're loaded/rich you might... perhaps Libby's role is MUCH larger then many of us thought!


The role her character plays posthumously {sp?) is limited to her extreme generousity. Granted, I'm sure we'll see an episode that features her character somehow. It seems warranted given the connection she has to Desmond and Hurley.

That bird that swooped down on them, I didn't hear it "say" anything.

Lots of good theories as to what will happen to Michael and Walt. IIRC, the Lost season 1 dvds were released a couple weeks before the start of season 2. I know this because, I spent an entire weekend catching up before the start of season 2. I wrote off the first run of the show (mistake).


----------



## stalemate

Sirius Black said:


> That bird that swooped down on them, I didn't hear it "say" anything.


I saw the bird, and didn't hear anything. Then Hurley made his comment and as soon as Sawyer said "Yeah" I hit instant replay and watched the scene 3 or 4 times. It wasn't until after I had convinced myself that the bird really did say "Hurley" that I let the rest of Sawyer's comment play.

I still don't know if I heard anything or not


----------



## Solver

Does anyone else think that the statue with four toes got to the island the same way as the Black Rock did? (but not at the same time.)


----------



## Fish Man

vtfan99 said:


> Best post I've read in months


+1

I'm really offended at how easily some people are offended these days!


----------



## Fish Man

jenhudson said:


> My first thought on the one that they shot was it looked like the guy from the orientation flicks. But I'm sure it couldn't be.


Glad you mentioned this. I thought it looked like him too.

Why couldn't it be him?

Sure it could!

We have no idea where he is "now", on or off the island.


----------



## jkeegan

tivogurl said:


> How exactly does kidnapping, medical experimentation, and murder qualify as "saving" anybody? If what you posit were true, they'd have figured out by now that the Losties also aren't Dharma. Why, then, do they continue the charade? Enlist them as allies.


Not that I necessarily believe this, but for the sake of brainstorming I'll try to answer.. Kidnapping could seem justified if they were kidnapping them to save them or do good for them (giving them vaccine if they think it's real, or give Walt encouragement about his abilities, etc). Medical experimentation - umm, do you mean the Claire abduction? That falls under trying to save them from the "illness" on the island. And murder - well, we saw Goodwin murder, but he said the guy was a bad person.. We saw Ethan hang Charlie, but maybe Charlie's a bad person too. That's it, right?

As to the allies part, maybe they _are_ recruiting allies.. Walt, Sawyer, Jack, Kate, and maybe an attempt at Locke?


----------



## Fish Man

Does anyone know if the "Hurleybird" looks like a real species?

It looked to me like it was the size of a huge condor, but had the markings and hooked bill of a parrot or parakeet.


----------



## mwhip

Kristin at E! online is throwing out a theory on the Bad Twin stuff. This is not spoilers since she is guessing but I guess it could reason why we always talk about why people look alike on the show.



> I'm dying!
> 
> I just rewatched the finale and I could SWEAR that at the end of the episode, one of the Brazilians in the frozen hatch speaking Portugese is:
> 
> JACK!!!!!!!!!
> 
> The guy with the glasses and cap is so Matthew Fox! If you add on a fake nose and a hat and a beard, it's definitely him.
> 
> Does this play into the Bad Twin theory listed in my previous posting today and Desmond's 'Our Mutual Friend' book?
> 
> Is this why the Others need disguises? They're all twins of someone else?
> 
> Is this why Shannon's dad looked like Terry O'Quinn?!
> 
> I actually remember a source saying that when they were shooting the finale LAST year, there were two "CREEPY TWIN BROTHERS" on the Others' boat (when they took Walt). Not sure if we actually saw them in the episode, but they were there ....
> 
> Holy crap!
> 
> Could this twin thing be real?


Can anyone grab a screencap of the guys at the end in the winter place?


----------



## spikedavis

jkeegan said:


> Not that I necessarily believe this, but for the sake of brainstorming I'll try to answer.. Kidnapping could seem justified if they were kidnapping them to save them or do good for them (giving them vaccine if they think it's real, or give Walt encouragement about his abilities, etc). Medical experimentation - umm, do you mean the Claire abduction? That falls under trying to save them from the "illness" on the island. And murder - well, we saw Goodwin murder, but he said the guy was a bad person.. We saw Ethan hang Charlie, but maybe Charlie's a bad person too. That's it, right?
> 
> As to the allies part, maybe they _are_ recruiting allies.. Walt, Sawyer, Jack, Kate, and maybe an attempt at Locke?


We never actually saw Ethan hang Charlie. And it would have taken more than one person to hang him.


----------



## jkeegan

tivogurl said:


> The observation hatch is clearly a psychological experiment, one long since abandoned. If the Lostie's hatch isn't, then why have human handlers? As long as the eletromagnetism is under control, and apparently Dharma's control of it is perfect since it has worked without incident for decades, modern computer control will handle it just fine.


When the arctic observers said "we missed it _again_?!", I got the feeling they'd missed it recently.. like when Locke saw the hieroglyphics the first time, or when Henry was sent by Locke to push the button (looks like he did, at least based on the whole things-flying-across-the-room events, unless those too are fake and he turned that off somehow).


----------



## mqpickles

bruinfan said:


> Last week, Michael made a reference when he went to Jack. He said that it had to be those 4, that they the only ones that know. Jack missed it, but what do they know that makes it so important to have them. Noone talked about it in last week's thread, even after I brought it up. But I think something's there.


Maybe, but I don't think so. I just took Michael to mean that those four were the only ones there when he told his story about Henry escaping and shooting AL, Libby and Michael, as well as about the Others being raggedy hillbillies with only 2 guns. It was just a cover, as Hefe indicated, and a credible one.


bruinfan said:


> Where is Jack from again? What city? It's interesting that Jack, Desmond, Libby, Shannon are all from the same city, and end up in Australia in the same time, and on the same return trip. These are confirmed by past encounters. I can't think of any others that crossed paths in this same city. If they are in LA, since 815 was going to LA (it could be a layover to another city), then ana lucia as well, since she was lapd.


I've assumed all along that several of the Losties are from LA. Pretty sure Jack is, based on the encounters you mention.

Also Locke lived in Tustin, LA suburb, and ran into Sayid's Nadia there.

Hurley's backstory scenes also take place in LA (not counting the institution, but the name of it sounds like a SO Cal kind of place), or at least they look like they were filmed there, but we all know Hollywood likes to pretend that Southern California can be anyplace on earth.

We know Kate was from Iowa orginally, Sawyer from the South and Rose and Bernard from NY.

I don't think we can say with any certainty that Desmond was "from" LA (and obviously not a native). We only know that he did some of his training there.


----------



## Magister

jkeegan said:


> When the arctic observers said "we missed it _again_?!", I got the feeling they'd missed it recently.. like when Locke saw the hieroglyphics the first time, or when Henry was sent by Locke to push the button (looks like he did, at least based on the whole things-flying-across-the-room events, unless those too are fake and he turned that off somehow).


I think the again meant maybe a couple months previous when the plane crashed.


----------



## mqpickles

Magister said:


> I think the again meant maybe a couple months previous when the plane crashed.


I agree.


----------



## Fish Man

jkeegan said:


> When the arctic observers said "we missed it _again_?!", I got the feeling they'd missed it recently.. like when Locke saw the hieroglyphics the first time, or when Henry was sent by Locke to push the button (looks like he did, at least based on the whole things-flying-across-the-room events, unless those too are fake and he turned that off somehow).


[Judge Marilyn Milian]I wouldn't believe "Henry" if his tongue came notarized.[/Judge Marlin Milian]

Henry pushed the button, then lied and said he didn't.

Henry tried to trick Locke into stopping pushing the button. He was indirectly successful, eventually, but Eko took over for a time.

Did Henry know the consequences of not pushing the button? Who knows, but I'm convinced he and his colleagues are up to no good.

"We're the good guys."

Yeah, my arse!


----------



## hefe

mqpickles said:


> Hurley's backstory scenes also take place in LA (not counting the institution, but the name of it sounds like a SO Cal kind of place),


The institution is in Santa Rosa. Unless it's a different lesser known Santa Rosa, that's in NorCal, about an hour north of 'frisco.


----------



## jradford

Libby Theory:

Mr. Widmore found out Desmond was going to try to sail around the world in his race. He knew Desmond needed a boat. Libby was sent in as a plant to get Desmond his boat. Mr. Widmore has Dharma initiate system failure when Desmond is in the right spot, causing terrible sailing whether and shipwrecking him on the island, never to see his daughter ever again. Best way to keep a guy away from your daughter is to stick him in a hatch.


----------



## mqpickles

hefe said:


> The institution is in Santa Rosa. Unless it's a different lesser known Santa Rosa, that's in NorCal, about an hour north of 'frisco.


Okay, thanks. I thought the institution was named Santa Rosa, not that it was located in Santa Rosa, not that I would have known where the city was anyway.


----------



## murrays

Fish Man said:


> Glad you mentioned this. I thought it looked like him too.
> 
> Why couldn't it be him?
> 
> Sure it could!
> 
> We have no idea where he is "now", on or off the island.


Just to throw out some timing...

Assumptions:

-The orientation video was made before they starting filling in the books and throwing them into a pile.

-There are 100 pages per book.

-They fill in 2 pages per day so it takes 50 days to fill one book.

-There were 1000 canisters in the pile.

We could conclude that it took 50,000 days or *136 years* to fill those books!! Even if the assumptions are off by a lot, it clearly took many years to fill in all those books.

That doesnt mean he isnt still on the island, but it lowers the probability. It also makes me think that the computer and other stuff in the hatch werent made to look retro, but were modern at the time the hatch was constructed. It doesnt explain the new washer and dryer other than they were replacements.

-murray


----------



## Fish Man

jradford said:


> Libby Theory:
> 
> Mr. Widmore found out Desmond was going to try to sail around the world in his race. He knew Desmond needed a boat. Libby was sent in as a plant to get Desmond his boat. Mr. Widmore has Dharma initiate system failure when Desmond is in the right spot, causing terrible sailing whether and shipwrecking him on the island, never to see his daughter ever again. Best way to keep a guy away from your daughter is to stick him in a hatch.


Something along those lines has crossed my mind. Seriously.

The "Libby" part of it isn't 100% necessary for this theory to be valid however. If she is a participant, what an irony she ended up on the island herself! (Or not!)

Widmore simply had to know Desmond was in the race to orchetrate his dissaperance. Where he got his boat is not, necessarily, relevant.

Evidence that Widmore orchestrated it:

His daughter, Pen, apparently knew that the location of this "secret/hidden" island could be pinpointed by looking for magnetic anomalies.

This suggests that Mr. Widmore was involved with the island and what was going on there.

There are a number of ways he could have arranged for Desmond's route to take him close enough to the island to be ensnared, either by creating a storm by using it's magnetic properties, or simply by virtue of however the island normally tends to screw up compasses and other tools of navigation.


----------



## cherry ghost

Funny how Libby dies right before Desmond comes back. Would they have recognized each other?


----------



## mqpickles

I just re-watched the polar scene and remember thinking when that scene first started that we were looking out an airplane window. Re-watching, I see that those guys are either in a fuselage or something that looks very much like one. Interesting.

The reason I re-watched is because I was thinking "Neither of those guys looks like Jack. What are these people talking about?" After re-watching, I see what they mean. Doesn't sound a think like MF, but they could either use a different voiceover or MF may have more vocal range than I would have given him credit for.


----------



## Fish Man

murrays said:


> Just to throw out some timing...
> 
> We could conclude that it took 50,000 days or *136 years* to fill those books!! Even if the assumptions are off by a lot, it clearly took many years to fill in all those books.


Considering the detail with which they were supposed to take notes, I can see that one person would fill one of those composition books *per day.*

So, if the pile did contain 1000 canisters, and there were two people taking notes, it represents 500 days.

Also, based on the vintage of most of the stuff in the hatch, and the vintage of a UMatic video tape, I tend to trust the copyright dates on the orientation films/videos, 1980, as being genuine.

Besides, the technology in the "Pearl" hatch (as well as the Swan hatch), suggests the hatches were built circa 1980 as well. They didn't have computers, dot matrix printers, and closed circuit television 136 years ago!



Spoiler



Besides, according to their web site(s), one of the Hanso foundation's projects was "life extension." No telling how old some of the "others" are!


----------



## BeanMeScot

mqpickles said:


> The reason I re-watched is because I was thinking "Neither of those guys looks like Jack. What are these people talking about?" After re-watching, I see what they mean. Doesn't sound a think like MF, but they could either use a different voiceover or MF may have more vocal range than I would have given him credit for.


When I first watched it last night, I had a flash that it was Jack but I looked more closely and I don't think it is. I never thought the other guy was Sawyer.


----------



## BeanMeScot

mqpickles said:


> I think more like catatonic, like she had been very heavily medicated.


Depression can cause catatonia.


----------



## murrays

Fish Man said:


> Besides, the technology in the "Pearl" hatch (as well as the Swan hatch), suggests the hatches were built circa 1980 as well. They didn't have computers, dot matrix printers, and closed circuit television 136 years ago!


I agree. I didnt mean to imply that the hatches were built 136 years ago, merely starting a discussion that there were many years of canisters in that pile. Actually, 1000 canisters seem like a very conservative estimate.

I think the number of canisters supports the 1980 date as well which makes it unlikely that the same guy would be around for 24 years to be killed while tracking the losties.

-murray


----------



## ireland967

Speaking of the canisters, how would the Pearl station's stock of them stay full, since the ones they send out obviously never come back to them.


----------



## Fish Man

Speaking of the canisters:

Since it now appears that the occupants of the Pearl hatch, taking the notes on the people in the Swan (and probably other hatches) were unwitting participants in a psychological experiment, wouldn't the people staging that experiment be interested in reading what they wrote (to evaluate their mental state), rather than just letting the canisters pile up in a field?

EDIT: And ireland967 makes an excellent point too!


----------



## BeanMeScot

Something has been bothering me that no one has mentioned. Dharma knew that pushing the button was important. "Incidents" had happened from people not pushing the button in a timely manner. They say in the film that those who push the button are saving the world. We know that not pushing the button causes something bad to happen.

Considering how important pushing the button was, Dharma was very cavalier about making sure someone was there to push it. Kelvin and his partner were put there by Dharma. The partner offed himself. Presumably, Dharma did not send Desmond since he didn't know the pass phrase and washed up on the shore. Desmond was with Kelvin for 2 years and pushed the button by himself for another year. Then the button pushing was passed to the Losties. So we know that it has been *at least * 3 years since Dharma sent someone to push the button or check on the people pushing the button. Even the people in the Pearl were gone (I wonder for how long?). That implies to me that something catastrophic happened to the Dharma Initiative. Otherwise, they would be making sure someone was there to push the button and someone they had trained. Not this half baked chain of custody they had going.


----------



## mqpickles

BeanMeScot said:


> Depression can cause catatonia.


 Yeah, but I had the idea they were trying to imply something else, either heavy medication or just completely "lost" in her own head, like a post-traumatic stress blackout (IANAP/P so please excuse any incorrect jargon).

May still be depression, but it would be extremely severe (well, of course it would be; people aren't institutionalized for garden-variety depression).


----------



## Fish Man

BeanMeScot said:


> Something has been bothering me that no one has mentioned. Dharma knew that pushing the button was important. "Incidents" had happened from people not pushing the button in a timely manner. They say in the film that those who push the button are saving the world. We know that not pushing the button causes something bad to happen.
> 
> Considering how important pushing the button was, Dharma was very cavalier about making sure someone was there to push it. Kelvin and his partner were put there by Dharma. The partner offed himself. Presumably, Dharma did not send Desmond since he didn't know the pass phrase and washed up on the shore. Desmond was with Kelvin for 2 years and pushed the button by himself for another year. Then the button pushing was passed to the Losties. So we know that it has been *at least * 3 years since Dharma sent someone to push the button or check on the people pushing the button. Even the people in the Pearl were gone (I wonder for how long?). That implies to me that something catastrophic happened to the Dharma Initiative. Otherwise, they would be making sure someone was there to push the button and someone they had trained. Not this half baked chain of custody they had going.


I agree with everything you say here. (With one quibble. Desmond was with Kelvin almost 3 years. He was alone only about 40 days. We learn in this episode that he accidently killed Kelvin on the same day the plane crashed.)

But that quibble wasn't the comment I planned to make... 

My comment is this:

It is clear that Dharma is badly "damaged", but it is still clearly operating after a fashion.

They're still making supply drops!


----------



## mqpickles

BeanMeScot said:


> When I first watched it last night, I had a flash that it was Jack but I looked more closely and I don't think it is. I never thought the other guy was Sawyer.


I need to re-re-watch on my HDTV and not just abc.com on my laptop. I'm certainly not convinced it's MF, just that I can see how people think that.


----------



## Shakhari

Does anyone remember the name of Shannon's father, the Rutherford who died when Jack saved Sarah? For some reason, when Libby said her husband David had just died, that's the connection I made, but I think the timing is wrong ... didn't Jack run into Desmond toward the end of his marriage, not the beginning?

I had to wonder about all the notebooks lying around out in the open on a tropical island. Granted, the tubes might be waterproof and protect them from rain, but I'm pretty sure the heat would have done a lot of damage. And yet, they seem to be not only intact, but legible as well.


----------



## mqpickles

Shakhari said:


> Does anyone remember the name of Shannon's father, the Rutherford who died when Jack saved Sarah? For some reason, when Libby said her husband David had just died, that's the connection I made, but I think the timing is wrong ... didn't Jack run into Desmond toward the end of his marriage, not the beginning?


His name was Adam.

This raises an interesting point about repeated names. Dave/David isn't the only one we've seen.

Shannon's father was Adam; on the island they found "Adam and Eve."

Zeke's real name is Tom; Kate's true love was Tom; Claire's BF/Aaron's father was Thomas.

Jack's wife was Sarah; Christian Shepard called AL Sarah (I thought that was strange at the time because he would have had to know he was using his DIL's name).

Any more?


----------



## Fish Man

Shakhari said:


> I had to wonder about all the notebooks lying around out in the open on a tropical island. Granted, the tubes might be waterproof and protect them from rain, but I'm pretty sure the heat would have done a lot of damage. And yet, they seem to be not only intact, but legible as well.


They look identical to the tubes the drive through at my bank uses.

They are by no means waterproof either.


----------



## BeanMeScot

Fish Man said:


> I agree with everything you say here. (With one quibble. Desmond was with Kelvin almost 3 years. He was alone only about 40 days. We learn in this episode that he accidently killed Kelvin on the same day the plane crashed.)
> 
> But that quibble wasn't the comment I planned to make...
> 
> My comment is this:
> 
> It is clear that Dharma is badly "damaged", but it is still clearly operating after a fashion.
> 
> They're still making supply drops!


I was originally going from Kelvin telling Desmond he had seen him fake a lockout for the past 2 years and Desmond telling the Losties he had been there for 3 years. Was there that long of a time between the two things? It didn't seem like that.


----------



## hefe

Shakhari said:


> Does anyone remember the name of Shannon's father, the Rutherford who died when Jack saved Sarah? For some reason, when Libby said her husband David had just died, that's the connection I made, but I think the timing is wrong ... didn't Jack run into Desmond toward the end of his marriage, not the beginning?


The longer the series runs, the more I'm going to start confusing these details, but I thought Jack was out running the same time of the surgery on his future wife. At that moment, he didn't know if she would be ok yet. But I could be mixing things up...


----------



## Jericho Dog

Fish Man said:


> Besides, the technology in the "Pearl" hatch (as well as the Swan hatch), suggests the hatches were built circa 1980 as well. They didn't have computers, dot matrix printers, and closed circuit television 136 years ago!


... or composition books...


----------



## dadx2

Fish Man said:


> They look identical to the tubes the drive through at my bank uses.
> 
> They are by no means waterproof either.


There are still drive through banks around!


----------



## BeanMeScot

Fish Man said:


> It is clear that Dharma is badly "damaged", but it is still clearly operating after a fashion.
> 
> They're still making supply drops!


My thought on this is that the food drops were prearranged with an outside contractor with no ending date. Like the flower that gets placed on Marilyn Monroes grave each day from Joe DiMaggio. He has been dead for years but everything was prearranged.


----------



## mqpickles

hefe said:


> The longer the series runs, the more I'm going to start confusing these details, but I thought Jack was out running the same time of the surgery on his future wife. At that moment, he didn't know if she would be ok yet. But I could be mixing things up...


It does get increasingly confusing. I would love to see a comprehensive Lost time line, with both backstory and island events.


----------



## RunnerFL

BeanMeScot said:


> Doubtful. It would be pretty silly to name your kids Charles and Chuck. Besides, we saw in the show how upset she was about her husband's death. It doesn't take much imagination to have her get so depressed she had to be hospitalized. She didn't seem agitated at the hospital. Depression would fit the way she was acting.


You have a valid point however Charles and Chuck are closer to each other than Elizabeth and Libby, at least in my mind.

Also I don't remember Libby ever saying she was married nor do I remember a ring. Most widows keep wearing the ring, at least the ones I know do.

What if Elizabeth is the one that was hospitalized and Libby was not?

I'm just trying to maybe tie something to "Bad Twin" meaning Elizabeth would be the bad twin...


----------



## Lee L

dadx2 said:


> There are still drive through banks around!


Nearly every bank in this area has several lanes.


----------



## quarkman97

Was it me or was Ecko WAY too close to the dynamite when it blew? 

I was saying "He couldn't have survived that!" Then it showed Charlie helping him up. BALONEY! 
I think people are reading too much into Charlie. 

Wounds heal quickly when you're stranded on an island. Like the other poster said, she held his hand at the funeral which was a sign in his favor. Then there is this huge catastrophe, plus she's still stranded on this island with her baby. Add that to the fact that Locke might be gone for good...I think she is realizing that Charlie has changed (has he?) and she is letting him back in her life. 

I'm sorry, if Desmond comes back fresh as a daisy next season, I'm calling shenanigans. Whatever happened down there surely killed him. (I know its LOST, but that's a S-T-R-E-T-C-H.) 

It will be interesting to see if everyone's magical cures for their ailments will be gone since the magnet went haywire.


----------



## jkeegan

smickola said:


> What is with the episode title? I know Jack said it, after Michael thanked him for coming out and helping him get Walt. But in that context, wouldn't "live together, die TOGETHER" make more sense??


Several pages behind, but:

I figured it was that Desmond and Kelvin lived together, but Desmond died alone.


----------



## Fish Man

dadx2 said:


> There are still drive through banks around!


You're in silicon valley?

Last time I was in the SF bay area was 2001. There were plenty of them in that area then.

They're all gone 5 years later? 

Around here, I can't think of a bank that *doesn't* have drive through lanes!


----------



## RunnerFL

Fish Man said:


> And I tended to think I overthought this show!
> 
> It was Libby! It was obvious it was Libby!
> 
> Libby is a nickname for Elizabeth! Twins wouldn't be named Libby and Elizabeth. Would two twins be named Tom and Thomas or Dave and David? Doubt it!
> 
> It's yet another "real world" connection between "losties" (in this case, Desmond being an "honorary" lostie!)


Ok, how is it obvious?

Different makeup style, compared to Libby at the airport in Australia, and different hairstyle. I'm banking on the possibility that it's not Libby but her twin sister. And since everyone is so quick to point out that Libby is short for Elizabeth, which I have never heard, maybe it's Libby's/Elizabeth's twin saying she's Elizabeth...


----------



## thenightfly42

mqpickles said:


> It does get increasingly confusing. I would love to see a comprehensive Lost time line, with both backstory and island events.


Check out -- COMPLETE Timeline --. It seems to be updated as far as 2 episodes ago.


----------



## thenightfly42

stevieleej said:


> It would also need to be explained why Kelvin continued to live in the hatch for the next two years (I think) with Desmond.


Well, he needed time to repair the boat. So close, another week and he would have been ready to go.


----------



## RunnerFL

jeff125va said:


> I went to high school with twins named Khanh and Khánh.


I went to HS with twins named Cindy and Sindi...


----------



## davezatz

RunnerFL said:


> What if Elizabeth is the one that was hospitalized and Libby was not?
> 
> I'm just trying to maybe tie something to "Bad Twin" meaning Elizabeth would be the bad twin...


I don't buy the twin theory and feel confident that we saw Libby. Libby is most definitely a nickname for Elizabeth. The story also supports needing to spend some time medicated in the loony bin. One of these articles quoted in the thread (NY Times?) implies Libby's story isn't complete as opposed to Ana Lucia.


----------



## hefe

quarkman97 said:


> I'm sorry, if Desmond comes back fresh as a daisy next season, I'm calling shenanigans. *Whatever * happened down there surely killed him. (I know its LOST, but that's a S-T-R-E-T-C-H.)


That word should indicate that we just don't know what happened down there. I'm not assuming he's dead, not yet. We just don't really know what happened.

BTW, I checked back, and Desmond and Jack did indeed meet _before _ Jack and Sarah were married as I remembered...


----------



## thenightfly42

Regarding Libby and the institution -- everyone is saying that she was institutionalized because of grief from her husband's death. Isn't that only half of it, where the second half is guilt from giving the boat to Desmond, only to have him disappear presumed dead in the middle of the race?


----------



## stalemate

RunnerFL said:


> And since everyone is so quick to point out that Libby is short for Elizabeth, which I have never heard, maybe it's Libby's/Elizabeth's twin saying she's Elizabeth...


And maybe Hurley didn't win the lottery but his twin Hugo did! Hurley is pretending to be Hugo to get the money.


----------



## dswallow

BeanMeScot said:


> Something has been bothering me that no one has mentioned. Dharma knew that pushing the button was important. "Incidents" had happened from people not pushing the button in a timely manner. They say in the film that those who push the button are saving the world. We know that not pushing the button causes something bad to happen.
> 
> Considering how important pushing the button was, Dharma was very cavalier about making sure someone was there to push it. Kelvin and his partner were put there by Dharma. The partner offed himself. Presumably, Dharma did not send Desmond since he didn't know the pass phrase and washed up on the shore. Desmond was with Kelvin for 2 years and pushed the button by himself for another year. Then the button pushing was passed to the Losties. So we know that it has been *at least * 3 years since Dharma sent someone to push the button or check on the people pushing the button. Even the people in the Pearl were gone (I wonder for how long?). That implies to me that something catastrophic happened to the Dharma Initiative. Otherwise, they would be making sure someone was there to push the button and someone they had trained. Not this half baked chain of custody they had going.


On the other hand the supply drops seem to be continuing.


----------



## Fish Man

RunnerFL said:


> Ok, how is it obvious?
> 
> Different makeup style, compared to Libby at the airport in Australia, and different hairstyle. I'm banking on the possibility that it's not Libby but her twin sister. And since everyone is so quick to point out that Libby is short for Elizabeth, which I have never heard, maybe it's Libby's/Elizabeth's twin saying she's Elizabeth...


How many women have you *ever* known who go three years without changing their *hairstyle?!* Different hairstyle (3 years earlier) proves it's a different person?

In Locke's flashbacks, he has hair. That proves it isn't Locke? 

And, then, the very well reasoned post: ( :up: )



thenightfly42 said:


> Regarding Libby and the institution -- everyone is saying that she was institutionalized because of grief from her husband's death. Isn't that only half of it, where the second half is guilt from giving the boat to Desmond, only to have him disappear presumed dead in the middle of the race?


Indeed.

*It was Libby, our Libby, lostie-Libby, who gave Desmond the boat.*

Those who are trying to make her someone else, like a twin...

*SHEESHHH!!!!* 

That's just not there!

I know this is "Lost", but I draw the line on utterly over-the-top speculation somewhere!


----------



## mwhip

We need a screencap becuase other boards I am visiting is saying Matthew Fox was playing one of the portuguese guys at the end.


----------



## darthrsg

Has anyone mentioned the "Dave" Libby spoke of to Dessie? Could it be Hurley-vision Dave?


----------



## hefe

darthrsg said:


> Has anyone mentioned the "Dave" Libby spoke of to Dessie? Could it be Hurley-vision Dave?


Yes, that has been mentioned.


----------



## brott

Fish Man said:


> They're still making supply drops!


Yes, but I think this is some sort of time-loop and the drops may in fact be the "same" drops every time.


----------



## stalemate

mwhip said:


> We need a screencap becuase other boards I am visiting is saying Matthew Fox was playing one of the portuguese guys at the end.


I just watched on abc.com (admittedly not the greatest quality) and I can't even decide which of the 2 guys would have been thought to be Matthew Fox. For now, I'm saying neither one of them are him.


----------



## BeanMeScot

brott said:


> Yes, but I think this is some sort of time-loop and the drops may in fact be the "same" drops every time.


That's another possibility.

I posted in the last Lost thread about an interview with Abrams and Damen. One of the radio guys (who doesn't watch the show) asked about the new washer and dryer in the hatch he had heard about. Damen responded that for not watching the show he had asked the single most important question of the entire show. Then he said the W&D seemed "out of time". That's an interesting way to put it.


----------



## mqpickles

thenightfly42 said:


> Check out -- COMPLETE Timeline --. It seems to be updated as far as 2 episodes ago.


[Orbit gum girl]Fabulous![/Orbit gum girl] Thanks!



thenightfly42 said:


> Regarding Libby and the institution -- everyone is saying that she was institutionalized because of grief from her husband's death. Isn't that only half of it, where the second half is guilt from giving the boat to Desmond, only to have him disappear presumed dead in the middle of the race?


I too have been thinking there has to be more to Libby's institutionalization than her husband's death. After all, people lose spouses every day; very few people go to mental institutions. So either there was some reason (perhaps an event, perhaps physiological) why she was particularly fragile so that her husband's death was the last straw, but she continued to function long enough to buy Desmond coffee and give him a boat, ... or another trauma happened after her husband died, which seems more likely to me. Perhaps you are onto something with the Desmond crash/guilt theory. (Third possibility I guess is that she is a Dharma/Hanso plant and was never really mentally ill at all, but was there scouting Hurley.)

(Jeff, am I okay on the ellipses?  )


----------



## MFruchey

Fish Man said:


> How many women have you *ever* known who go three years without changing their *hairstyle?!* Different hairstyle (3 years earlier) proves it's a different person?
> 
> In Locke's flashbacks, he has hair. That proves it isn't Locke?
> 
> And, then, the very well reasoned post: ( :up: )
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> *It was Libby, our Libby, lostie-Libby, who gave Desmond the boat.*
> 
> Those who are trying to make her someone else, like a twin...
> 
> *SHEESHHH!!!!*
> 
> That's just not there!
> 
> I know this is "Lost", but I draw the line on utterly over-the-top speculation somewhere!


Thank you, Fish Man. Nicely put, as always. There are enough mysteries to solve without making something out of nothing. Here that? Nothing!


----------



## Fish Man

brott said:


> Yes, but I think this is some sort of time-loop and the drops may in fact be the "same" drops every time.


An interesting theory. (Time distortions have been discussed before, and I'm not ready to rule them out.)

However, I like BeanMeScot's more down-to-earth- theory better:




BeanMeScot said:


> My thought on this is that the food drops were prearranged with an outside contractor with no ending date. Like the flower that gets placed on Marilyn Monroes grave each day from Joe DiMaggio. He has been dead for years but everything was prearranged.


----------



## Bars & Tone

stalemate said:


> ... I can't even decide which of the 2 guys would have been thought to be Matthew Fox...


The guy who makes the phone call to Penelope does bear a resemblance to Jack, but mark me down in the "it's not him" column.
But then again, maybe I don't know jack.


----------



## mwhip

This seriously looks like him:


----------



## mqpickles

Fish Man said:


> In Locke's flashbacks, he has hair. That proves it isn't Locke?


Do you really want to give that kind of food for thought?


----------



## bro1ncos

Was the paper that Sawyer gave Jack at the pile of tubes a copy of the black light map in the hatch?


----------



## BeanMeScot

bro1ncos said:


> Was the paper that Sawyer gave Jack at the pile of tubes a copy of the black light map in the hatch?


Yes. John had put it in the vacuum tube and sent it on it's way.


----------



## mqpickles

mwhip -- That picture does capture the resemblance very well. The use of stocking cap and strange glasses adds to the intrigue. I'm not ready to rule out it being MF; I'm very undecided. I think he looked most like Jack when talking oh the phone, including the way his mouth moved.


----------



## RunnerFL

Fish Man said:


> How many women have you *ever* known who go three years without changing their *hairstyle?!* Different hairstyle (3 years earlier) proves it's a different person?
> 
> In Locke's flashbacks, he has hair. That proves it isn't Locke?


I ask again, how is it obvious that it's Libby? Was she wearing a name tag that I missed?


----------



## mwhip

and


----------



## brott




----------



## JMikeD

ireland967 said:


> Speaking of the canisters, how would the Pearl station's stock of them stay full, since the ones they send out obviously never come back to them.


 My first thought was "Where did the property master get all those cannisters?"

I haven't gone back and looked yet, but the master shot may be CGI.


----------



## lordargent

nedthelab said:


> Bottom line, if a Jumbo jet breaks up at crusing altitude (40K feet) no one, no one will survive period.....so someone needs to do some esplaning (pun intended)


Magnets slowed the descent 



lew said:


> I agree completely. I don't associate that phrase with Flight 93.


Ditto, I was thinking transformers myself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let's_roll

Anyway, when I first saw the two at the end (after realizing it wasn't a commercial), I thought they were russians and were going to launch a nuke or something.



murrays said:


> How was Desmond so confident that the blast doors would hold? Was there another attack on the hatch?
> 
> -murray


Wouldn't be very useful blast doors if two sticks of old dynamite would get through them.


----------



## ireland967

Comparing with the TV Guide cover, it looks very similar except the nose - although that could easily be prosthetic


----------



## zordude

thenightfly42 said:


> When they played the first Desmond flashback, I immediately assumed that he would die before the episode was over, based on the Ana-Lucia and Shannon flashbacks from earlier this season. We still don't know if that is correct, but based on how far up the Swan's Quarantine hatch was blown, I'm assuming that Desmond, Locke, and Eko are all dead.


It wasn't necessarily "blown" with explosive or concussive force. I was thinking that it was "repelled" magnetically.

Now, I have no idea what a magnetic force that large would mean to a human body.

Z

EDIT: Total Smeek. Boo.


----------



## hefe

More similar than I remembered. Here's another to compare. (Loads slow because lost-media is getting hammered today)


----------



## smak

Go to 85 minutes into the show on ABC.com if you still don't have it, and you can tell it's definately not Jack at the station, and so far from Sawyer that I have to laugh.

My educated guestimates on next near's Lost schedule.

Episode 1 9/27/06 - Episode 8 11/15/06
2/7/07 will be a recap of those episodes
Episode 9 2/14/07 - Episode 23 (two hours) 5/23/07

-smak-


----------



## Lee L

Wow, the eyes in those 2 shots look so close, I would bet money that that is Matthew Fox.


----------



## stalemate

From these pictures there is more of a resemblance than I could see from the abc.com clips, but I still think it is not the same person. I could definitely be wrong though!


----------



## Mike Farrington

Did anybody notice on the dock scene, in one of the shots there appears to be a friggate and some sort of platforms (oil platforms?) off in the distance? I could be wrong (I'm watching in SD). I think it was when Jack was being put onto his knees. 

Production error? Part of the story? Mike needs glasses?


----------



## 3D

BeanMeScot said:


> Considering how important pushing the button was, Dharma was very cavalier about making sure someone was there to push it.


Interesting point. However, just because Dharma is not officially sending in backup to take over the responsibilities doesn't mean that they're being cavalier about making sure that someone's there to push the button. If Dharma's experiments are, at least in part, psychological in nature, and they are in fact watching everything that goes on at the various hatches that we know about, then it's perfectly reasonable to think that they were satisified that Desmond and then the Losties took responsibility for pushing the button. Many of the theories out there depend on the speculation that the Dharma initiative, or the group/person behind it, arranged for every person who's on the island to be there. Thus, even though nobody knocked on the door and took over in the traditional sense after responding to the snowman riddle, the task was still being passed on according to plan.


----------



## mwhip

I think the guy in the picture looks more like David Duchovany than anything. Could they be telling us "the truth is out there"?


----------



## Fish Man

RunnerFL said:


> I ask again, how is it obvious that it's Libby? Was she wearing a name tag that I missed?


No, but obviously, you missed it when she *told Desmond her name!*

This will absolutely be my last comment on the subject, because the argument is absurd and frankly, I think you're just trolling, but:


It's much, much more intriguing from a story point of view that it is Libby rather than not.
That it is Libby fits in with the "countless connections between the various characters in the real world before the crash" motif that runs throughout the series.
*In the flashback, she gives us her name forcrissakes!!!* (She's not wearing a name tag *but she tells us her name!!!*) On a TV show, if you have a character named "Joe", and in a flashback scene, that's supposed to happen a few years earlier, the same actor introduces himself as "Joseph", do you automatically assume that "Joseph" is not the same person as "Joe"?


----------



## smak

Those pictures actually do look pretty similar, and the black rimmed top of the glasses shield it just enough that it's hard to tell 100%.

-smak-


----------



## hefe

Fish Man said:
 

> ...if you have a character named "Joe", and in a flashback scene, that's supposed to happen a few years earlier, the same actor introduces himself as "Joseph", do you automatically assume that "Joseph" is not the same person as "Joe"?


Well, there was this one time I met George Foreman Jr...


----------



## BeanMeScot

hefe said:


> More similar than I remembered. Here's another to compare. (Loads slow because lost-media is getting hammered today)


This shot is the one that made me think it was him. But when he was on the phone is when I decided it wasn't him. Could be wrong.


----------



## JYoung

Fish Man said:


> No, but obviously, you missed it when she *told Desmond her name!*
> 
> This will absolutely be my last comment on the subject, because the argument is absurd and frankly, I think you're just trolling, but:
> 
> 
> It's much, much more intriguing from a story point of view that it is Libby rather than not.
> That it is Libby fits in with the "countless connections between the various characters in the real world before the crash" motif that runs throughout the series.
> *In the flashback, she gives us her name forcrissakes!!!* (She's not wearing a name tag *but she tells us her name!!!*) On a TV show, if you have a character named "Joe", and in a flashback scene, that's supposed to happen a few years earlier, the same actor introduces himself as "Joseph", do you automatically assume that "Joseph" is not the same person as "Joe"?


P.S. Libby is not an other.


----------



## smak

Has anybody tried to try to figure out the differences between Hurley and Jack/Sawyer/Kate that would explain Hurley being allowed to go back, but not the other three?

Why was Hurley's name on the list, only for them to just let him go back? Was it just to tell the rest of the Losties what happened? Why was Hurley chosen to do that?

Every time I have a pretty good theory in mind as to what's going on, I think back to that 4 toed statue and then I give up. That was so out of place in what my thoughts on what the island is all about that it's hard to reconcile (now!)

-smak-


----------



## getreal

That is Matthew Fox playing the Portuguese research scientist.
Do you guys have the same difficulty seeing Superman when Clark Kent puts on glasses?
LOL!


----------



## BeanMeScot

hefe said:


> Well, there was this one time I met George Foreman Jr...


You met George Foreman, Jr, George Formeman III, George Foreman IV, George Foreman V... Obviously not the same person!


----------



## Mike Farrington

With Good/Bad being such a theme, and with the Portugese ice-station researcher looking just like Jack. I wonder if the theory -- that for every person there is a twin -- will become a theme of the show. What if one is good and one is bad? It's just a random thought I had when I saw the photos of the researcher.


----------



## lordargent

zordude said:


> It wasn't necessarily "blown" with explosive or concussive force. I was thinking that it was "repelled" magnetically.EDIT: Total Smeek. Boo.


Rip the iron right out of their blood.


----------



## hefe

getreal said:


> That is Matthew Fox playing the Portuguese research scientist.
> Do you guys have the same difficulty seeing Superman when Clark Kent puts on glasses?
> LOL!


Now that you mention it, I know where that Arctic station really was...


----------



## durl

- When "Elizabeth" meets Desmond, when Desmond turns down her offer of the boat, she says something like "he wants you to have it" or "he would have wanted you to have it". That just struck me as strange. I'm not sure why, but I got the impression there's something significant there.

- Does Henry want the button pushed? He said he didn't push it, making Locke think that it's ok not to enter the code. That would imply he wants whatever will happen to happen. But we're pretty sure Henry DID enter the code. So if he wants the event to happen, why didn't he just do it while he had the chance? Walt appeared in the jungle and said "button bad" but was that the Others tapping into Walt's abilities somehow?

- I have trouble with the "good" others and "bad" others theory. Ethan was with Zeke; Zeke was with Henry; Ethan tried to kill Jack and Charlie. They're bad. If I'm wrong, and Henry said they were the "good guys," I don't believe him one bit.


----------



## Jeeters

I don't believe it is Mathew Fox. Yeah, a few still shots make it look like him, but i've seen shots of Catherine Bell that look *exactly* like an ex girlfriend of mine. If you watch a playback, maybe frame by frame in a few spots, it looks to me to NOT be him. The nostrils are slightly wider, the nose from the side is more hawk like, the ear lobes are more defined than Fox's, and the eyes are a deep darker brown than Fox's. The portugese guy basically has stronger Latin-like features than Fox does, if he has any at all.


----------



## jkeegan

murrays said:


> Another question, why didnt Henry simply walk away?


Maybe more important to Henry than escape was the idea of getting them to stop pressing the button.. maybe he figured that Pen would be able to figure out where they were if the button wasn't pushed.. or that the electromagnetic station would be destroyed by a key-turn.. He actively tried convincing Locke to not push the button...


----------



## brott

Haven't rewatched, but could the image of Portugese "Jack" be mirrored so that left is right and right is left? This could make any of MF's mannerism appear different. It wouldn't be THAT hard to pull off with their mouths as most of us were reading the subtitles anyway.


----------



## spikedavis

This should put all the silly theories to rest...

http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/05/25/no-i-am-not-jack/


----------



## bruinfan

JYoung said:


> P.S. Libby is not an other.


P.P.S. Libby's dead.


----------



## PJO1966

Len Cordova as NotJack...


----------



## spelcheker

Almost 500 posts, and nobody has mentioned the biggest thing I got out of the episode.

The writers put Mr. Krabs down in a hole.

Could this mean the whole island, ocean and everything.....is under water?


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## Fish Man

spikedavis said:


> This should put all the silly theories to rest...
> 
> http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/05/25/no-i-am-not-jack/


:up:

Thunder stolen!

I had just found the credits on TV.com and was about to post them.

But, you found a better reference!


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## puddyhog

If Fiji is "Due West for a week at 9 knots" as Desmond says - Smells like the Cook islands, eh? Now what would Hanso be doing way out there?


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## Fish Man

PJO1966 said:


> Len Cordova as NotJack...


And for completeness:

Alex Petrovich as NotSawyer.


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## jubrand

puddyhog said:


> If Fiji is "Due West for a week at 9 knots" as Desmond says - Smells like the Cook islands, eh? Now what would Hanso be doing way out there?


Competing on next fall's Survivor?


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## niea_7

Fish Man said:


> No, but obviously, you missed it when she *told Desmond her name!*
> 
> This will absolutely be my last comment on the subject, because the argument is absurd and frankly, I think you're just trolling, but:
> 
> 
> It's much, much more intriguing from a story point of view that it is Libby rather than not.
> That it is Libby fits in with the "countless connections between the various characters in the real world before the crash" motif that runs throughout the series.
> *In the flashback, she gives us her name forcrissakes!!!* (She's not wearing a name tag *but she tells us her name!!!*) On a TV show, if you have a character named "Joe", and in a flashback scene, that's supposed to happen a few years earlier, the same actor introduces himself as "Joseph", do you automatically assume that "Joseph" is not the same person as "Joe"?


Agreed.

In addition, she gives us her name in the context of the sailboat. If we hadn't known of the name of the boat at that point and she was merely introducting herself, she'd probably say her name was Libby instead. It wouldn't have made a lot of sense for her to say "The boat is named Elizabeth, he named it after me, oh and my name's Libby."



> When "Elizabeth" meets Desmond, when Desmond turns down her offer of the boat, she says something like "he wants you to have it" or "he would have wanted you to have it". That just struck me as strange. I'm not sure why, but I got the impression there's something significant there.


I thought that line was very peculiar also. I agree that there is definitely some significance there. Almost like she knows that Desmond and her husband knew each other.


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## jkeegan

I dislike careless smeeking as much as the next person, but I'm starting to understand some of it: I'm only on page 8 out of 13 (on the max posts-per-page setting) and I have to go home - and have things I've saved up to say..

So, here are three thoughts that I wanted to post that might have been said between pages 8 and 13 (and no, my opinions aren't more important than others - and I will read every post later just like I do on every Lost thread):

1) Interesting that we heard voices again - haven't heard those in a while. I wonder if it's other "remote viewer" people (not as powerful as Walt, who can project a visual image of himself to Shannon) viewing and talking quietly amongst themselves about what to do.. (I'd thought it would relate to reality not being "real" - but it looks like it's more real now).

2) Seeing what looks like Jack in the arctic site does make me wonder if the Lost world IS fake after all, like buried (as someone had suggested) - something that would still cause a magnetic disturbance, but would explain how our Jack is only an avatar for the other guy or something. Need to think about that more, and watch the scene again.

3) Remember the missing clips (which were brought up again in last night's episode)? They said not to try to communicate, because that could lead to another incident.. Incidents (according to Kelvin and our own experience) are when you don't type the code and there's no "venting" of magnetic whatever, with flying knives, washing machines, etc. How could communication lead to that? Maybe by having someone on the other end of the computer telling you to stop pushing the button..

3) Again, the beard was Dharma issue.. Either Henry's group is actually Dharma, or they're infultrators that _happened_ to need fake beards and _happened_ to find them amongst Dharma supplies.. So even though I'm a fan of the idea of them being anti-Dharma activists, someone needs to explain why they have Dharma fake beards.

Ok, heading home now. Note to self: you're at the top of page 8.


----------



## bruinfan

jkeegan said:


> I dislike careless smeeking as much as the next person, but I'm starting to understand some of it: I'm only on page 8 out of 13 (on the max posts-per-page setting) and I have to go home - and have things I've saved up to say..


You should have taken the day off to read Lost threads


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## mqpickles

smak said:


> Has anybody tried to try to figure out the differences between Hurley and Jack/Sawyer/Kate that would explain Hurley being allowed to go back, but not the other three?
> 
> Why was Hurley's name on the list, only for them to just let him go back? Was it just to tell the rest of the Losties what happened? Why was Hurley chosen to do that?
> 
> Every time I have a pretty good theory in mind as to what's going on, I think back to that 4 toed statue and then I give up. That was so out of place in what my thoughts on what the island is all about that it's hard to reconcile (now!)
> 
> -smak-


Here's my theory. They wanted the A-list of the Losties in part to weaken the remaining group. Remember that the first night after the crash, they took out the strongest people from the tail group. Then it would be much easier to execute their plans with those that are left.

Sayid is also A-list, but having him in the group would provide too much strength and risk that the Losties could successfully fight back. Locke and Eko would have been A-list at one point, but they're in their existential crisis/faith argument and aren't much of a problem for the Others at this point.

As for Hurley, he's someone that would not be a threat if part of the group, and in fact, would be kind of a "drag" on the group (i.e., Kate, Sawyer and Jack as a trio could fight back more effectively than the quartet). OTOH, he's well-liked by all the Losties, and if the Others sent him back to send a message, the other people would believe and follow his advice.


----------



## hanumang

Fish Man said:


> No, but obviously, you missed it when she *told Desmond her name!*


Your point stands with me (with regards to is it Libby or isn't it Libby?) so I'm not arguing that but I think we should be very careful just how much we believe any character, especially Libby. Were you buying that she really was a clinical psychologist?

And folks do lie about their names. Just ask James Ford.


----------



## mqpickles

Okay, so Len Cordova is not Matthew Fox. So why for this role did they pick an actor who bears such a resemblance to MF, and then scruff him up and put him in a stocking cap (yeah, I know it's cold in Anarctica) and glasses? Hard to believe it's no more than coincidence.


----------



## davezatz

mqpickles said:


> Okay, so Len Cordova is not Matthew Fox. So why for this role did they pick an actor who bears such a resemblance to MF, and then scruff him up and put him in a stocking cap (yeah, I know it's cold in Anarctica) and glasses? Hard to believe it's no more than coincidence.


I have scruff, glasses, and a variety stocking caps. Maybe I'm Jack too!


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## Fish Man

niea_7 said:


> I thought that line was very peculiar also. I agree that there is definitely some significance there. Almost like she knows that Desmond and her husband knew each other.


IIRC, the exact line was "He would want you to have it." It may have been, "He would have wanted you to have it." (A re-watch of this episode is in order for *so many reasons!*  )

In any case, the oddness of her telling a total stranger this zoomed me as I watched originally.

But now, seeing the discussion of it, I agree, it has significance. She knows who Desmond is, or something like that.


----------



## Fish Man

hanumang said:


> Were you buying that she really was a clinical psychologist?


I have no strong opinion one way or the other on this one.

I don't see a particular motive for her to lie about this, but perhaps there is one we are not aware of. (A clinical psychologist becoming a patient in a mental hospital has a certain irony that I find intriguing though.)


----------



## JMikeD

bruinfan said:


> P.P.S. Libby's dead.


It's gaunt.


----------



## Fish Man

Elizabeth is gaunt.

Libby is goth.


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## Fish Man

hanumang said:


> And folks do lie about their names. Just ask James Ford.


Heck, I decided to answer this one too.

Yes, people lie about their names, but:

My interpretation is not so much he was "lying" about his name, but had adopted the name "Sawyer" as his own, as a sort of ironic comment on his own self loathing at becoming the very object of his hatred.

It was a "professional pseudonym".

We wouldn't say that Reginald Dwight is "lying" about his name when he introduces himself as "Elton John." (Albeit, Elton John changed his name for reasons that were not pathetic, like Sawyers reasons were...)


----------



## niea_7

hanumang said:


> Were you buying that she really was a clinical psychologist?


Considering we've not been given anything that points to the contrary, I see no reason to assume she's lying. You'd be surprised at the number of mental health professionals that have mental health issues themselves. It's one of those things. . .a lot of them specifically go into the profession _because_ they've "been there" and understand.

Besides, is it really far-fetched for her to be hospitalized because she needed help dealing with her overwhelming grief and guilt resulting from her husband's death and [possibly] aiding Desmond in his "death"? That kind of debilitating depression can happen to anyone and I don't take that to be a sign that she was somehow crazy beforehand.

Anyway, did anyone else notice what Libby said her husband died from? Didn't she say he "got sick"? Interesting, especially because she didn't elaborate. I can't help but think of the "sickness" the Losties and Others refer to.


----------



## drew2k

ireland967 said:


> What did Desmond expect to accomplish by winning Pen's father's around the world race? I don't think he has a shot at getting his respect anytime soon. Did I miss any clues on why Desmond was in the military prison, or for how long?


Desmond wasn't looking for respect from Widmore.

At the stadium, Penelope asked Desmond what he was running from. He replied, "I have to get my honor back, and that's what I'm running to."

So by winning the race, he would have earned his honor back, and I supposed feel worthy again of Penelope.


----------



## hanumang

Fish Man said:


> Yes, people lie about their names, but:


All I'm saying is that, while it's certainly fun to extrapolate the truth from all the new tidbits we're given after an episode, Lost has a way of turning the tables on us.

(Honestly, that's reason I watch Lost - the twists are magnificently done)


----------



## hefe

hanumang said:


> And folks do lie about their names. Just ask James Ford.


And Hugo Reyes. (I know, not lying, he just goes by Hurley)


----------



## Bars & Tone

mqpickles said:


> ...So why for this role did they pick an actor who bears such a resemblance to MF, and then scruff him up and put him in a stocking cap ... and glasses? Hard to believe it's no more than coincidence.


Is it beyond the pale to suggest that perhaps the producers did it just to mess with the collective head of the fanbase?


----------



## borther

eugene82 said:


> It will be the justice he deserves.


Why do you care? You hate this show and evidently everone that likes it. Read my lips...It's just TV. Get over it.


----------



## niea_7

Bars & Tone said:


> Is it beyond the pale to suggest that perhaps the producers did it just to mess with the collective head of the fanbase?


The very same thought crossed my mind. But after thinking about it some more, I think it's more meaningful than that. I'm not sure how, though, quite yet (I don't buy into the 'bad twin' theory).


----------



## PJO1966

I did notice the twin guys that were with The Others. Maybe they're Cylons!


----------



## Church AV Guy

Well, after over 500 posts, here are a few thoughts.

1) Over the last few weeks/months people have complained about the expression "push the button" as being not descriptive, but Candle uses it in the orientation film, so Kelvin used it, Desmond used it, it was just natural for Locke to use it, and for people on this board to use it too.

2) The producers are on record as definitively stating that the plane was brought down by the button NOT being pressed the day Desmond Followed Kelvin out of the hatch and accidentally killed him. By what mechanism, they didn't say, but the non-pressed button was the cause.

3) What did the woman mean when she told Michael that HE could free not-Gail, but that they could not? Why not?

4) The only thing that can be sent flying by "magnetic repulsion" is another magnet. Whatever sent the blown hatch top flying through the air, unless that hatch top was magnetized itself, and oriented with its polarity opposite that of the magnetic anomaly, was not the magnetic force, or a reverse orientation of the magnetic force. Something else sent it flying away from the bunker.

5) The producers are also suggesting that the ideas of purgatory, time loops, or that everybody is dead are false. These are people living on Earth, on an island, under weird circumstances, but not magic or supernatural. (Suggesting I said.)

6) (I need to see the episode again, but from my memory of last night...) The voice said, "System Malfunction" when the button wasn't pressed in time. System Malfunction. that implies, to me, that there is something else going on with all that computer equipment in the hatch. Kelvin said the incident caused a leak, and pressing the button purged the system. The business of the hatch is not pressing the button, but the need to press the button is (since the incident) a side effect of the business in the hatch. The backup system, or failsafe or whatever it was called probably shut down the real business of what was happening, making the pressing of the button no longer necessary, but halting whatever was really going on. This could have a dire effect on everyone in the future.

7) When the key was turned, and the light and sound happened, everyone stopped and put their hands over their ears, but they otherwise didn't react at all. Not-Gail for instance just stood on the dock, frozen, until it was over. After the event had past, they just picked up where they had left off as if the event had never happened. I'm not completely sure about this, but did anyone comment about it at all? It was like their brains just shut off for that time and to them, it never happened. Short-term, and long-term memory just cut out. Charlie comments to Claire about the dynamite explosion, but not about the big event. I bet none of them remember it at all.


----------



## hanumang

niea_7 said:


> Considering we've not been given anything that points to the contrary, I see no reason to assume she's lying.


Very true. At the same time, though, there's nothing that we've been shown that cements that (as true).

Plenty of other survivors have left out some type of truth. I don't remember if anyone (but Kate and Michael, right?) knows that Sun was planning to leave Jin. Or that Jin was planning to go underground with Sun. And, except for Rose, nobody knows Locke's secret, of course. Not to mention Kate probably would have hid the truth had the Marshall died.

I can respect that you guys believe Libby, but I'm just not ready to join that club.


----------



## mitchb2

How about this: Libby's husband died in Hurley's deck accident. She was going to take revenge, but after he won the lottery, she decided to get close to him and take him for his money.

Also, Penelope bought the boat, planted a tracking device on it, and had Libby gift it to Desmond.
But the tracking device is only visible when the island's electromagnetic shield is down.


----------



## drew2k

stevieleej said:


> Couple of questions...
> 
> Why was Kelvin drawing an 'invisible' map without the florescent lites on? How would he know what he was drawing and where he had previously drawn? Or that it would show up under florescent (or black) light? It would also suggest that he was doing a lot of scouting to find out the information or he was creating this drawing just for fun.


Maybe Kelvin didn't want the closed-circuit observers in Peal to see what he was drawing.


----------



## BeanMeScot

3D said:


> Interesting point. However, just because Dharma is not officially sending in backup to take over the responsibilities doesn't mean that they're being cavalier about making sure that someone's there to push the button. If Dharma's experiments are, at least in part, psychological in nature, and they are in fact watching everything that goes on at the various hatches that we know about, then it's perfectly reasonable to think that they were satisified that Desmond and then the Losties took responsibility for pushing the button. Many of the theories out there depend on the speculation that the Dharma initiative, or the group/person behind it, arranged for every person who's on the island to be there. Thus, even though nobody knocked on the door and took over in the traditional sense after responding to the snowman riddle, the task was still being passed on according to plan.


My only problem with this is that pushing the button is SO important. It saves the world. Who knows what else the people were shown in training that convinces them that pushing the button is hugely important. It's like going to a team building meeting. When people first come away from those they are all gung ho and ready to work their butts off. Over time, that feeling goes away. That's why the same person can't push the button forever. Even Kelvin, who was trained by Hanso, was getting sick of it and joking about having "just saved the world." He lasted 3 years and I would be willing to bet he wasn't meant to be there even half that long. Whatever happened to the Initiative caused him and his partner to be left out there so long that the partner commits suicide and Kelvin was feeling the same way (he thought turning the key would kill him). Desmond lost faith after just a few days and also wanted to die. The Losties, getting information third hand, were even less devoted and more torn about the button. It just doesn't seem a safe way to take care of the button. I don't think anyone was watching out for the button anymore except for the people there on the island. I believe the particular Losties are there for a reason but that that reason was not about the button.


----------



## murrays

Church AV Guy said:


> 4) The only thing that can be sent flying by "magnetic repulsion" is another magnet. Whatever sent the blown hatch top flying through the air, unless that hatch top was magnetized itself, and oriented with its polarity opposite that of the magnetic anomaly, was not the magnetic force, or a reverse orientation of the magnetic force. Something else sent it flying away from the bunker.


Gee, that's pretty obvious, but nobody has pointed it out IIRC.



Church AV Guy said:


> 7) When the key was turned, and the light and sound happened, everyone stopped and put their hands over their ears, but they otherwise didn't react at all. Not-Gail for instance just stood on the dock, frozen, until it was over. After the event had past, they just picked up where they had left off as if the event had never happened. I'm not completely sure about this, but did anyone comment about it at all? It was like their brains just shut off for that time and to them, it never happened. Short-term, and long-term memory just cut out. Charlie comments to Claire about the dynamite explosion, but not about the big event. I bet none of them remember it at all.


Claire did say something to the effect of "What about the noise and the violet sky?" Charlie just smiled. But I agree, everyone acted strangely normal after the incident.

-murray


----------



## PJO1966

murrays said:


> Claire did say something to the effect of "What about the noise and the violet sky?" Charlie just smiled. But I agree, everyone acted strangely normal after the incident.
> 
> -murray


Maybe it's just that after 65 days on this island of weirdness, nothing surprises them anymore...


----------



## drew2k

Fish Man said:


> IIRC, the exact line was "He would want you to have it." It may have been, "He would have wanted you to have it." (A re-watch of this episode is in order for *so many reasons!*  )
> 
> In any case, the oddness of her telling a total stranger this zoomed me as I watched originally.
> 
> But now, seeing the discussion of it, I agree, it has significance. She knows who Desmond is, or something like that.


I don't see anything particularly sinister or out-of-order with someone telling someone else what their husband would have wanted done with their property.

This is pure supposition, but think of it this way: If Libby's husband loved to sail, and he was a "true romantic", would Libby's husband have been unhappy to know Libby was miserable about having a boat she didn't want now that her husband was dead? Or would Libby know that her husband, the "true romantic", would be thrilled that someone who desperately wants a boat also wants it to win back the love of his life?

IMHO, it's only natural then for Libby to say to Desmond that it's what her husband would have wanted.


----------



## PJO1966

drew2k said:


> I don't see anything particularly sinister or out-of-order with someone telling someone else what their husband would have wanted done with their property.
> 
> This is pure supposition, but think of it this way: If Libby's husband loved to sail, and he was a "true romantic", would Libby's husband have been unhappy to know Libby was miserable about having a boat she didn't want now that her husband was dead? Or would Libby know that her husband, the "true romantic", would be thrilled that someone who desperately wants a boat also wants it to win back the love of his life?
> 
> IMHO, it's only natural then for Libby to say to Desmond that it's what her husband would have wanted.


 :up:


----------



## Philosofy

My thoughts on the final telephone call: I don't think Penny is looking for Desmond per se. I think her father is dead (or she forced him out of his own company, a'la Lex Luthor in Smallville) and she is looking for a lost or secret experiment of a small secret division of her father's company.


----------



## 3D

BeanMeScot said:


> My only problem with this is that pushing the button is SO important. It saves the world. Who knows what else the people were shown in training that convinces them that pushing the button is hugely important. It's like going to a team building meeting. When people first come away from those they are all gung ho and ready to work their butts off. Over time, that feeling goes away. That's why the same person can't push the button forever. Even Kelvin, who was trained by Hanso, was getting sick of it and joking about having "just saved the world." He lasted 3 years and I would be willing to bet he wasn't meant to be there even half that long. Whatever happened to the Initiative caused him and his partner to be left out there so long that the partner commits suicide and Kelvin was feeling the same way (he thought turning the key would kill him). Desmond lost faith after just a few days and also wanted to die. The Losties, getting information third hand, were even less devoted and more torn about the button. It just doesn't seem a safe way to take care of the button. I don't think anyone was watching out for the button anymore except for the people there on the island. I believe the particular Losties are there for a reason but that that reason was not about the button.


Once again, you make a good point and, depending how things ultimately play out, this might be a bit of a logical flaw on the writer's part. However, this assumes that it is always necessary to push the button to save the world. We simply don't have enough information to say this with complete certainty. It is possible that in addition to keeping the Losties under close surveilance, the Dharma group can remotely push the button. Thus, things could reasonably get to a certain point that they save the world themselves when its clear to them that the, for lack of a better term, button keeper is about to pass the point of no return. For all we know, Dharma learns more about their subjects by seeing their reactions after the alarm goes off than by repeatedly pushing the button on time. All I'm saying is, there's so much we don't know about Dharma that it's too soon to say with any certainty that the writers don't already have a work around for this issue.

Here's a theory: Desmond did not cause the plane crash. I find it hard to believe that, even under the stress of having killed someone, Desmond was late in pushing the button. He should have been so conditioned to worry about the button that he would not have forgotten to return to the hatch on time. Admittedly, it was probably close, but he should have had a few minutes to spare. Because of what he'd just been through, however, he wouldn't second guess the situation. Maybe the countdown was increased whilst Desmond was away so that the alarm would go off at the precise time a certain airplane was close enough to be effected. Thus, although we learned what caused the crash, we didn't really learn who caused the crash. The obvious flaw in this theory is that Dharma shouldn't have known that Desmond would be away from the hatch. I'm sure there are numerous ways that could be explained, whether they had the ability to send gas through the vents to make him sleep or if Kelvin had intentionally conditioned Desmond to follow him.


----------



## scheckeNYK

Here's something interesting - we "know" from Kelvin (as good as second hand info is on this show), that Rusedski (sp?) edited the orientation film. Since we know he's the one who cut out certain frames, it stands to reason he's also the person who placed the cut frames in the Tallie's hatch. He presumably knew about the other hatch because of the map he was drawing. Kelvin seemed pretty dialed in on this too, since he continued the map painting. 

At one point, Kelvin said something ot the effect of "and then I went and joined the Dharma Initiative!" I could interpret that as he was just a victim of circumstance. or he actually caught wind of the program and signed up. We never heard of Kelvin's (or Rusedski's) unfortunate travels that landed them on the island. I think there's a lot more twisting going on.


----------



## RunnerFL

Fish Man said:


> No, but obviously, you missed it when she *told Desmond her name!*


He told him her name was Elizabeth...

That does NOT make it "obvious" that she was Libby...

Remember, this is LOST. Things aren't always what they appear to be...


----------



## Chandler Mike

Has anyone on the board seen this site?

http://www.uen.org/swan/argos.html


----------



## Fraser+Dief

hanumang said:


> The surprise is supposed to be that the character we know formerly as only _Inman_ (from Sayid's last episode) is in fact _Kelvin Inman._ If you mean something else by your question, sorry, don't know what to say.


Ok, I'm terrible with names, so there's a lot of confusion here. I'll use descriptions for the various characters and situations as I saw them.

(1) Desmond early had told us about the guy who taught him about the hatch and the buttons. His name was Kelvin.

(2) Fake beard guy confronted Jack and Sawyer in the forest, and took their guns when they had Kate prisoner. Don't know his name.

(3) Sahid met with Secretive Govt Agency guy in Iraq. Name was Inman?

So, in yesterday's episode, folks are saying "Wow, didn't know Govt. guy would turn out to be Kelvin". I read this and say "I knew this all along, I recognised them from before".

Because I've thought all along that Inman is *also* Fake Beard Guy.

I'm guessing I'm the only one who thinks this.  Others are talking about Kelvin being dead, do we know that, we just know he was left on the rocks unconscious while Desmond went back to the hatch.



bro1ncos said:


> It is amazing how much the Losties could have found out if they had someone circumnavigate the island when they first landed there. Could have possibly found Demond's boat, the Other's (fake?) camp, the boat dock.


I've been saying that since the begining. The first thing I do is set out a team to map the coast. For all I know a freakin' city and rescue is just a few miles away around the bay.



mitchb2 said:


> In an interview in SciFi magazine with JJ et al, they say that Walt is the key to the story.


That was one of my early theories. It seemed like everything Walt wanted to happen did happen. Like he'd read a book about a polar bear, and bam, there's a polar bear on the island. He wanted the raft destroyed, and bam, fire!


----------



## murrays

Fraser+Dief said:


> Because I've thought all along that Inman is *also* Fake Beard Guy.


You know, my wife mentioned that at the time and I said "Naw", but then she recognized Libby with Desmond and I said "Naw" so my credibility is shot!

-murray


----------



## mitchb2

Fraser+Dief said:


> It seemed like everything Walt wanted to happen did happen.


"It's good that you did that, Walt. It's really good that you did that."


----------



## murrays

Fraser+Dief said:


> Because I've thought all along that Inman is *also* Fake Beard Guy.


Just checked http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Zeke & http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Kelvin and found Tom (bearded guy) and Kelvin are played by different actors.

-murray


----------



## Bars & Tone

mitchb2 said:


> "It's good that you did that, Walt. It's really good that you did that."


Yeah, we don't want Walt turning Jack into a Jack-in-the-box.


----------



## scheckeNYK

Fraser+Dief said:


> So, in yesterday's episode, folks are saying "Wow, didn't know Govt. guy would turn out to be Kelvin". I read this and say "I knew this all along, I recognised them from before".


The first time we saw this actor in the finale, he was clearly identified as being Kelvin. You couldn't have seen him and "known all along." Maybe you saw him and immediately recognized him as someone who appeared on Lost previously.



> Because I've thought all along that Inman is *also* Fake Beard Guy.
> 
> I'm guessing I'm the only one who thinks this.


You are, and that notion is ludicrous. He's so clearly a different person, not to mention that Clancy Brown's beard is so obviously REAL!


----------



## Richard R1

emandbri said:


> I think it means that Claire is very sexual person and it has been too long.
> 
> Emily


That could be a plausible reason, but this change in attitude seems to have come out of nowhere -- suddenly. You're a woman, so tell me -- Claire's recent actions seemed to be a motherly instinct, meant to protect herself and Aaron from a perceived danger from Charlie. Does it seem right that her hormonal urges would put those feelings aside, and now disregard them? Just wondering.

I was thinking more along the lines of how the island has been affecting various people -- Locke being able to walk, Rose's cancer in remission. When the electromagnetic effect went off, perhaps Claire's change in attitude could be explained as a reversal of what existed prior to the event.

This is just speculation for now, as the next season should clarify what effect, if any, that the event had on people, starting immediately with whether Locke is still walking. If he can't walk, that might explain why he hasn't returned to the beach, something that perplexed Charlie when he asked about him.


----------



## Fish Man

murrays said:


> Just checked http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Zeke & http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Kelvin and found Tom (bearded guy) and Kelvin are played by different actors.
> 
> -murray


Indeed. Kelvin is familiar because he was in one of Sayid's flashbacks. He was one of the American military officers that was working with Sayid when Sayid was made a "mole" to expose one of his friends as a terrorist. His last name in that episode was given as "Inman", same as in this episode. This is clearly supposed to be the same person. (But some of those "Elizabeth is not Libby" people will probably dispute this.  )

Tom/Zeke/Fake Beard Guy/Mr. Friendly is clearly not the same person as Kelvin!


----------



## Fish Man

hanumang said:


> (Honestly, that's reason I watch Lost - the twists are magnificently done)


So true! :up:


----------



## Mike Wells

cwoody222 said:


> http://www.widmoregroup.com/news.htm
> 
> The first two entries are interesting!


This site is a fan-site and not part of the actual show or game.


----------



## Fraser+Dief

murrays said:


> Just checked http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Zeke & http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Kelvin and found Tom (bearded guy) and Kelvin are played by different actors.


Please don't confuse my reality with "facts".


----------



## markz

Okay, after 15 pages, I didn't see this posted. I have seen speculation about what the title meant.

I am rewatching the show right now and just heard the phrase. Michael & "the 4" are heading towards the others. It's night time and Jack walks up to Michael in the dark. Michael says he is looking for firewood. He then thanks Jack for coming along to try to save his boy. Jack says "Live together, die alone man."


----------



## Mike Wells

The hanso foundation is very diverse.

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/

Life extension research? Electromagnetics? Animals?

(this one is not a fan site)


----------



## Magister

Church AV Guy said:


> 4) The only thing that can be sent flying by "magnetic repulsion" is another magnet. Whatever sent the blown hatch top flying through the air, unless that hatch top was magnetized itself, and oriented with its polarity opposite that of the magnetic anomaly, was not the magnetic force, or a reverse orientation of the magnetic force. Something else sent it flying away from the bunker.


If the hatch was of the correctr material to be attracted magnetically, then a strong enough magnet can temporally magnitize it. Then, when reversed, bye-bye hatch...

Remember in elementary school magnetizing needles by rubbing a magnet along the same axis over and over?


----------



## hefe

markz said:


> Okay, after 15 pages, I didn;t see this posted. I have seen speculation about what the title meant.
> 
> I am rewatching the show right now and just heard the phrase. Michael & "the 4" are heading towards the others. It's night time and Jack walks up to Michael in the dark. Michael says he is looking for firewood. He then thanks Jack for coming along to try to save his boy. Jack says "Live together, die alone man."


It's a callback to season one where Jack makes a speech to the survivors.


Lost Episode "White Rabbit" said:


> JACK [off camera, at first]: Leave him alone. It's been 6 days and we're all still waiting. Waiting for someone to come. But what if they don't? We have to stop waiting. We need to start figuring things out. A woman died this morning just going for a swim and he tried to save her, and now you're about to crucify him? We can't do this. Everyman for himself is not going to work. It's time to start organizing. We need to figure out how we're going to survive here. Now, I found water. Fresh water, up in the valley. I'll take a group in at first light. If you don't want to go come then find another way to contribute. Last week most of us were strangers, but we're all here now. And god knows how long we're going to be here. But if we can't live together, we're going to die alone.
> 
> [Shot of everyone standing around feeling stupid; shot of Charlie and Hurley getting water for people; shot of Jin and Sun.]


And in the very next episode, Sayid and Jack arguing about where to set up camp...


Lost Episode "House of the Rising Sun" said:


> SAYID: You're serious? Is there a reason you didn't consult us when you decided to form your own civilization?
> 
> JACK: I'm only talking about moving into the valley.
> 
> SAYID: Well, what happened to live together, die alone?
> 
> JACK: Digging in together is the only way we're going to survive.


----------



## mqpickles

Good memory, Hefe. That potentially changes the implications of the title of this episode for me. I had taken it to mean the Losties living together and Desmond dying alone. Now, not only am I somewhat persuaded by the arguments others have made that Desmond's survival is key to good storytelling, I'm also thinking there may be more togetherness among the group than seems to be playing out right now, including that Michael may be working together with Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Hurley after all. I think that was always a possibility given the various exchanges of looks at the end, but "live together, die alone" could be saying that Michael needs to work with his fellow survivors and can't survive if he goes out on his own. No man is an island.


----------



## murrays

Just watched a couple scenes and picked up on a couple things:

-Looking closely at the times of the button pushes, there is exactly 9 hours (5 X 1:08) between two lines of the print out. This holds true for the late button push when "922044:16 System Failure" was printed two lines below "922047:16 Accepted" so this disproves the theory that the count down was accelerated to the time Desmond returned to the hatch. But this does bring up a potential flaw: Pushing the button with some amount of time greater than a minute would result in less than 1:08 between printouts. I find it unlikely that Desmond would wait until the timer got close to zero repeatedly before pushing the button. In reality, the times of the printout should be less than 1:08 different and less than 9 hours between two lines.

-Not-Gale said to Michael before he boarded the boat "Once you leave here, you can never return" or something similar adding to the theory that the island can't be found from the outside by conventional means.

-murray


----------



## Fraser+Dief

mqpickles said:


> No man is an island.


I always liked that quote by Jon Bon Jovi.


----------



## Richard R1

From the following website:
http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Evangeline_Lilly

"[Evangeline Lilly] Currently in a relationship with fellow cast member Dominic Monaghan. Reputed to be pregnant."

Now, that's a relationship I would have never guessed!


----------



## freema22

Lost is my wife's favorite show. I am a fan too, but something went haywire here. At exactly the 1:02 mark, the screen goes black, and Tivo records another hour of nothing but black screen. Does anyone have the torrent for this, or did they experience something similar? Please help! Thanks.

Mike F


----------



## stalemate

freema22 said:


> Lost is my wife's favorite show. I am a fan too, but something went haywire here. At exactly the 1:02 mark, the screen goes black, and Tivo records another hour of nothing but black screen. Does anyone have the torrent for this, or did they experience something similar? Please help! Thanks.
> 
> Mike F


You can watch it at abc.com for free.


----------



## MickeS

I just thought of something that bugged the hell out of me, but that I haven't seen mentioned: that ridiculous fireball-explotion in the hatch when the dynamite exploded. Were the floors filled with gasoline?  I don't understand why movies and TV shows keep doing these fireball explosions when no material is around that could conceivably cause such a reaction.


----------



## Delta13

My pet theory for Libby is that after her husband's death she adjusted as best she could. It was hard, but she made it. Then she gives away her husband's boat on a hunch, and this guy she gives it to winds up missing and presumed dead. This pushes her over the edge and into the mental institution.

After she gets out, she somehow learns of the island, or more likely, just goes to Australia to try and find what happened to Desmond. She feels guilty, after all.

If true, then her interest in Hurley was completely without guile. But I don't think that her husband's name being David, Hurley's IF being named Dave, and Desmond's middle name being David are all coincidences.


----------



## spikedavis

hanumang said:


> All I'm saying is that, while it's certainly fun to extrapolate the truth from all the new tidbits we're given after an episode, Lost has a way of turning the tables on us.
> 
> (Honestly, that's reason I watch Lost - the twists are magnificently done)


I think you're stretching it with this one. It's like saying "how do we REALLY know that's Walt on the boat-he didn't act like Walt and we don't know for sure"...

Sometimes people like to make mountains out of molehills....


----------



## hanumang

spikedavis said:


> I think you're stretching it with this one. It's like saying "how do we REALLY know that's Walt on the boat-he didn't act like Walt and we don't know for sure"...
> 
> Sometimes people like to make mountains out of molehills....


Reread my post. I'm not challenging the fact that Desmond met Libby - if you want to be clear about it, the Libby who also landed on the island - I'm questioning the belief (of the 'others' here, hehe) that any of what Libby _said_ to Desmond is the truth.

Maybe I _am_ making a mountain out of a molehill, but next time you quote me get it right.


----------



## Bulldog7

eugene82 said:


> I guess it was also cool when a thermonuclear incident took place having no effects on anyone.
> It takes a fool to wath this show. JJ Abrams can bet his soul that tonight was the last time he fools me or makes an ass out of me.
> The rest of you can keep bending over.


I may have just been an electromagnetic pulse with no actual explosion....they can do that now, it is being developed as a weapon for our military....and if so, Locke and Eco and Desmond may not be dead, yet....ha ha


----------



## lightfoot215

I hope this is new stuff. I'm new to this thread, and haven't read it all...

If you read the text carefully above Widmore's picture on the back of the race brochure, 18 minutes into the show, you can make out a few words like "surprise. We were not expecting..." and "ran down a rubber dinghy." I googled the latter phrase, and found this paragraph, which seems to match the one on the brochure.

There was a mass of spectator craft out in the Solent - that came as a surprise. We were not expecting so many people and it made it difficult to steer especially since there was no marshalling to speak of. We almost ran down a rubber dinghy, but managed somehow to avoid it at the last minute.

It's from the Volvo Ocean Race website. I would post the link, but being new to posting, I'm not being permitted to post any urls until my fifth post. But you can google it yourself.

Does anyone know if this is a real race? Or is this just the production crew cutting and pasting? Or is this just a very weak product placement from Volvo?


----------



## headroll

lightfoot215 said:


> I hope this is new stuff. I'm new to this thread, and haven't read it all...
> 
> If you read the text carefully above Widmore's picture on the back of the race brochure, 18 minutes into the show, you can make out a few words like "surprise. We were not expecting..." and "ran down a rubber dinghy." I googled the latter phrase, and found this paragraph, which seems to match the one on the brochure.
> 
> There was a mass of spectator craft out in the Solent - that came as a surprise. We were not expecting so many people and it made it difficult to steer especially since there was no marshalling to speak of. We almost ran down a rubber dinghy, but managed somehow to avoid it at the last minute.
> 
> It's from the Volvo Ocean Race website. I would post the link, but being new to posting, I'm not being permitted to post any urls until my fifth post. But you can google it yourself.
> 
> Does anyone know if this is a real race? Or is this just the production crew cutting and pasting? Or is this just a very weak product placement from Volvo?


Subtle product placement? Maybe I will go out an buy a Volvo today ... ? 

http://www.volvooceanrace.org/abouttherace/history/whitbread73_74/index.aspx?bhcp=1


----------



## scottdw

One thing that is bugging me is that they let Hurley go, I think something is up with that. They also never (I believe) showed him being shot with the dart, and also he was the one who was making the "list" (the census) of all the passengers.

Just a thought.


----------



## markz

scottdw said:


> One thing that is bugging me is that they let Hurley go, I think something is up with that. They also never (I believe) showed him being shot with the dart, and also he was the one who was making the "list" (the census) of all the passengers.
> 
> Just a thought.


There's an interesting theory! While I doubt it's true, that would make for a great twist, the lovable crazy guy with the bad luck actually being the infiltrator!

I did notice that they didn't show him being shot with the dart.


----------



## scottdw

I doubt it is true too but who know.


----------



## Bars & Tone

markz said:


> ...I did notice that they didn't show him being shot with the dart.


They didn't have to; he was already paralyzed with fear.
And who'd want to schlep all that deadweight through the jungle anyway.


----------



## danplaysbass

Why was Hurley let go?

My theory is, due to his hindered physical ability:

1. he could not run fast enough (no reason to dart him)
2. With the exception of the sawyer attack, he has been harmless
3. The rest of em are hostile,pissed off and want revenge
4. Hurley just wanted to get walt back.


----------



## sushikitten

Church AV Guy said:


> 4) The only thing that can be sent flying by "magnetic repulsion" is another magnet. Whatever sent the blown hatch top flying through the air, unless that hatch top was magnetized itself, and oriented with its polarity opposite that of the magnetic anomaly, was not the magnetic force, or a reverse orientation of the magnetic force. Something else sent it flying away from the bunker.


Actually, my thought process was, in quick succession:

1. It was another plane crashing.
2. It was a quarantine hatch "pulled in" from another Dharma island nearby.
THEN
3. It was repelled during the key-turn and just came crashing down.


----------



## jradford

scottdw said:


> One thing that is bugging me is that they let Hurley go, I think something is up with that. They also never (I believe) showed him being shot with the dart, and also he was the one who was making the "list" (the census) of all the passengers.
> 
> Just a thought.


Where are you going wtih that? That he wasn't on the plane and is an other? That is not possible.


----------



## MickeS

lightfoot215 said:


> I hope this is new stuff. I'm new to this thread, and haven't read it all...
> 
> If you read the text carefully above Widmore's picture on the back of the race brochure, 18 minutes into the show, you can make out a few words like "surprise. We were not expecting..." and "ran down a rubber dinghy." I googled the latter phrase, and found this paragraph, which seems to match the one on the brochure.
> 
> There was a mass of spectator craft out in the Solent - that came as a surprise. We were not expecting so many people and it made it difficult to steer especially since there was no marshalling to speak of. We almost ran down a rubber dinghy, but managed somehow to avoid it at the last minute.
> 
> It's from the Volvo Ocean Race website. I would post the link, but being new to posting, I'm not being permitted to post any urls until my fifth post. But you can google it yourself.
> 
> Does anyone know if this is a real race? Or is this just the production crew cutting and pasting? Or is this just a very weak product placement from Volvo?


That's a real race (it's better known under its old name "Whitbread around the world"). My guess it was just cutting and pasting, since they probably based the Lost-race on this.


----------



## 3D

murrays said:


> Just watched a couple scenes and picked up on a couple things:
> 
> -Looking closely at the times of the button pushes, there is exactly 9 hours (5 X 1:08) between two lines of the print out. This holds true for the late button push when "922044:16 System Failure" was printed two lines below "922047:16 Accepted" so this disproves the theory that the count down was accelerated to the time Desmond returned to the hatch.


Not necessarily. We don't know if that report is an accurate reflection of everything that happened or merely the printout that Dharma wants whoever finds it to think. I'm not sure, but was the printout found at the Pearl Station or did they have it at the Swant Station (the original hatch)? If at the orignal hatch, it would make sense that the printout would not indicate that the alarm went off early so as not to tip off Desmond that things are not what they seem.

If the printout was found at the Pearl Station, which is what I seem to remember but could be wrong, a whole slew of questions arise: Those at the Pearl Station are supposed to believe that the button pushing serves no purpose other than as a psychological experiment. What would someone in the Pearl Station make of a printout saying "System Failure" when, as far as they know, there is no system to fail? This makes me wonder if anyone was ever actually at the Pearl Station, or if everything the Losties are finding is meant for the person in the button pushing hatch to eventually find.

Edited to correct my mislableing of the Pearl Station as the Swan Station, as pointed out by Fishman a few posts below.


----------



## MacThor

Wow. I will try very hard not to smeek but 19 pages is a ton of material to go through before posting my collection of random thoughts (in no particular order of seriousness or significance):

Maybe Libby's in-laws had her committed after she started giving away her late husband's possessions to complete strangers in coffee shops? 

Sure the boat was worth >$42,000 but Desmond said he needed the $42K to get a boat. He probably had some (non-American) money saved for that purpose. They showed some Euro/British currency in his wallet. Libby didn't have $42K to give him but she had the boat.

The computer in "Ice Station Zero" read 7418880. That's 4x8x15x16x23x42.

Locke said it had been 65 days since the plane crash on 9/22/04. That would make this episode 11/25/04, Thanksgiving Day. Be sure to thank your local British drunk for saving the world! You'd think one of the American Losties would have noticed. Also, the Others/Hostiles/_Natives_ had Michael bring 4 Americans to them on Thanksgiving Day on this "New World."

We're going to start Season 3 with Charlie & Claire the only two "main" characters still with the group.

Why didn't Desmond tell Penelope he had written? I think she'd believe him.

I think Charlie has turned or been "infected." That sinister smile when he found Locke crying -- he seemed to be getting great pleasure in another man's pain. Also, he's trying to get Claire to inject Aaron with the same vaccine that Ethan was using on her while pregnant.

If Eko is dead (I hope not) the only surviving Tailie is Bernard, who I'm just not that interested in. A lot of this season -- spent on the Tailies -- seems wasted if Bernard is all that's left. Of course, there are always flashbacks.....

I also hope Desmond survived (remember, Jack Bauer survived the EMP "bomb" and he was sitting right next to it). If he didn't, though, what a touching irony that sacrificing his life is the only way Penelope could find him.

Jack, Sawyer and Kate and Locke were all present at the "Line in the Island" confrontation. Hurley is harmless - heck, he didn't do anything after Michael confessed to killing Libby. Perhaps they wanted him as a messenger and figured once freed notHenry would still be successful in bringing Locke (his mission).

I am totally NOT buying that the others are "the good guys." Why all of the deception? Blowing up the raft? Kidnapping? Killing the real Henry Gale? Ethan? The doubt on Alex's face about all of their actions? If a plane crashed on "OUR ISLAND" and I was one of the good guys, I'd be looking to help the survivors and collaborate on my cause, whatever that may be.

*Some things I will definitely be looking for on a re-watch:*

How did Libby react when she saw Widmore's picture? Did she offer the boat _after_ seeing it? Perhaps Widmore had something to do with David's sickness/death.

I feel like I saw the tailie woman who went missing right before Ana-Lucia shot Shannon as one of the background "others."

This is probably just a coincidence, but I never take anything for granted on "Lost." In the scene where Michael is "not feeling well" looking for firewood, his forearm looks like it has a bad burn or rash on it. Charlie has a very similar burn/rash on _his_ forearm on the beach at the end of the episode. Again, probably a fluke, but I noticed it on the first viewing so maybe there's a reason for the prominence. Perhaps this is a symptom of "infection?"


----------



## Fish Man

3D said:


> Not necessarily. We don't know if that report is an accurate reflection of everything that happened or merely the printout that Dharma wants whoever finds it to think. I'm not sure, but was the printout found at the Swan Station or did they have it at the original hatch? If at the orignal hatch, it would make sense that the printout would not indicate that the alarm went off early so as not to tip off Desmond that things are not what they seem.
> 
> If the printout was found at the Swan Station, which is what I seem to remember but could be wrong, a whole slew of questions arise: Those at the Swan Station are supposed to believe that the button pushing serves no purpose other than as a psychological experiment. What would someone in the Swan Station make of a printout saying "System Failure" when, as far as they know, there is no system to fail? This makes me wonder if anyone was ever actually at the Swan Station, or if everything the Losties are finding is meant for the person in the button pushing hatch to eventually find.


The printout was found at the Pearl station.

That's where the Swan station (the one with the button) and possibly other stations were monitored. The pearl station's entrance hatch was found underneath the burned drug plane.


----------



## durl

Since we've been given clues that Libby is deeply involved with Dharma, perhaps her time in the mental institution was a ruse. Hurley got the lottery numbers from a guy in the hospital so maybe Libby had a purpose in being there. She's had interaction with Desmond, Hurley, and Eko (so far) before the crash.

One thing I'm curious about is whether Libby met Desmond before or after her time in the hospital. I'm guessing after. Hurley's "Dave" and Libby's "David" seem like more than just a coincidence.

BUT, what if Hurley's Dave were a mental projection like that of Walt on the island and that projection was manipulated by Libby? Oooohhhhh......

I need to stop thinking.


----------



## MickeS

murrays said:


> Just checked http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Zeke & http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Kelvin and found Tom (bearded guy) and Kelvin are played by different actors.
> 
> -murray


That doesn't mean they can't be the same character. After Desmond "killed" him, he was probably found by The Others, and they maybe took him and performed plastic surgery on him. That would require a different actor. 

Hey, if some people can say that Libby is not Elizabeth, then I might as well come up with an idiotic theory of my own.


----------



## vtfan99

This has to have been explored as soon as the numbers in the show were mentioned, but has anyone plugged these numbers into mapquest?

It puts the island in the middle of the atlantic off the coast of Africa......yes...I'm very bored today and need something to occupy my time 

Mapquest


----------



## durl

vtfan99 said:


> This has to have been explored as soon as the numbers in the show were mentioned, but has anyone plugged these numbers into mapquest?
> 
> It puts the island in the middle of the atlantic off the coast of Africa......yes...I'm very bored today and need something to occupy my time
> 
> Mapquest


I haven't seen it on this forum, but someone posted that last year in the avsforum. VERY interesting.


----------



## BeanMeScot

scottdw said:


> One thing that is bugging me is that they let Hurley go, I think something is up with that. They also never (I believe) showed him being shot with the dart, and also he was the one who was making the "list" (the census) of all the passengers.
> 
> Just a thought.


My theory is that he is "good". They seemed to only want to keep "bad" people, except for Hurley. Kate and Sawyer and Michael killed people. And Jack caused someone to die by not treating them (Shannon's father). Hurley apparently caused some people to die in the deck collapse but he did not do that intentionally so I classify him as "good".


----------



## 3D

Fish Man said:


> The printout was found at the Pearl station.
> 
> That's where the Swan station (the one with the button) and possibly other stations were monitored. The pearl station's entrance hatch was found underneath the burned drug plane.


Fair enough. Just change my queries to the Pearl Station. It doesn't make sense that a printout sent to that station would indicate a system failure.


----------



## stalemate

MacThor said:


> I feel like I saw the tailie woman who went missing right before Ana-Lucia shot Shannon as one of the background "others."


Is this the woman you mean?










If so, I couldn't find any screenshot to make me believe she was there. This was the only shot where I believe you could see all the background others. It isn't the clearest shot, but I think clear enough to say she was not there.










Unless, of course, they captured her and altered her DNA to make her look like someone else.


----------



## gchance

Hey cool, the thread seems to be losing momentum!

I was rewatching this one with my wife last night, and when Desmond was going through the log, something kept running through my head.

The Dharma programmers were really with it. Not only did they add a clock to the Apple //+ (I don't think it had one), they anticipated Y2k back in 1980 and compensated for it. Even if that thing had a clock, wouldn't it say something like 0922740422 (wrapping around at 1-1-1970)? Or maybe when it says 0922040422 it means 1904, not 2004.

All kidding aside, in watching the HD feed downconverted to SD and played back MPEG2 on the Tivo in Medium recording mode, I have to say that for a brief moment, the sky did look violet.

And Charlie was turned before they found him hanged. He was a plant, Charlie's been turned a long time.

Greg


----------



## murrays

3D said:


> Not necessarily. We don't know if that report is an accurate reflection of everything that happened or merely the printout that Dharma wants whoever finds it to think.


Yes, I guess it's implied that the printout could be a ruse. I guess I find it unlikely that Desmond would press the button within 15 seconds of 1:08 4 times in a row when the alarm is going off at 1:04. If I were doing the printout (either as a show writer or a Dharma person trying to fool the Losties), I would have had some random times between 1:04 and 1:08 with a median of 1:05 or something like that.

For that matter, the format of the date/time is lousy. AFAICT, they used single digits for months, days and hours less than 10 and they didn't use a 24 hour clock. IMHO 92204:16 should be something more like 09220416:16 or, even better, 2004092216:16.

-murray


----------



## stalemate

murrays said:


> Yes, I guess it's implied that the printout could be a ruse. I guess I find it unlikely that Desmond would press the button within 15 seconds of 1:08 4 times in a row when the alarm is going off at 1:04. If I were doing the printout (either as a show writer or a Dharma person trying to fool the Losties), I would have had some random times between 1:04 and 1:08 with a median of 1:05 or something like that.
> 
> For that matter, the format of the date/time is lousy. AFAICT, they used single digits for months, days and hours less than 10 and they didn't use a 24 hour clock. IMHO 92204:16 should be something more like 09220416:16 or, even better, 2004092216:16.
> 
> -murray


Just so that we are clear, the timer goes from 108:00 down to 000:00 and then to the symbols, right? It is 108 minutes instead of 1 hour and 8 minutes. The timer is <minutes>:<seconds> but the seconds part doesn't actually show the seconds counting down until the warning sound starts going off.

Not trying to pick nits, but I got really confused earlier about how 1:08x5 would equal 9:00. Sent me off on a wild tangent with my calculator.


----------



## murrays

stalemate said:


> Just so that we are clear, the timer goes from 108:00 down to 000:00 and then to the symbols, right? It is 108 minutes instead of 1 hour and 8 minutes. The timer is <minutes>:<seconds> but the seconds part doesn't actually show the seconds counting down until the warning sound starts going off.
> 
> Not trying to pick nits, but I got really confused earlier about how 1:08x5 would equal 9:00. Sent me off on a wild tangent with my calculator.


Opps, you're right, of course. 9 hours is 108 minutes (1:48) times 5.

OTOH, I think the flaw in the timing (either by the writers or Dharma) is still valid.

-murray


----------



## stalemate

murrays said:


> Yes, I guess it's implied that the printout could be a ruse. I guess I find it unlikely that Desmond would press the button within 15 seconds of 1:08 4 times in a row when the alarm is going off at 1:04. If I were doing the printout (either as a show writer or a Dharma person trying to fool the Losties), I would have had some random times between 1:04 and 1:08 with a median of 1:05 or something like that.
> 
> For that matter, the format of the date/time is lousy. AFAICT, they used single digits for months, days and hours less than 10 and they didn't use a 24 hour clock. IMHO 92204:16 should be something more like 09220416:16 or, even better, 2004092216:16.
> 
> -murray


Let's examine this screenshot:










The only 2 consecutive entries we can see read:

129045:41 accepted 129047:29

I interpret this to mean January 29th 2004 at 5:41 and then again at January 19th 2004 and 7:29.

The 5:41 and the 7:29 are the time of day, not the time left on the counter.

5:41 AM/PM + 108 minutes = 7:29 AM/PM

Makes sense to me.


----------



## murrays

stalemate said:


> Let's examine this screenshot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only 2 consecutive entries we can see read:
> 
> 129045:41 accepted 129047:29
> 
> I interpret this to mean January 29th 2004 at 5:41 and then again at January 19th 2004 and 7:29.
> 
> The 5:41 and the 7:29 are the time of day, not the time left on the counter.
> 
> 5:41 AM/PM + 108 minutes = 7:29 AM/PM
> 
> Makes sense to me.


If you were Desmond, would you wait for the entire 4 minutes after the alarm started going off to enter the code and hit "execute"? I wouldn't! Maybe once in awhile, but not 10 times in a row as the printout shows with 129042:05, 1290411:05 & 130048:05.

-murray


----------



## stalemate

murrays said:


> If you were Desmond, would you wait for the entire 4 minutes after the alarm started going off to enter the code and hit "execute"? I wouldn't! Maybe once in awhile, but not 10 times in a row as the printout shows with 129042:05, 1290411:05 & 130048:05.
> 
> -murray


I see what you mean now. My only logical explanation is that this is recording the deadline for the entry, not the actual time of entry. It could also be that when the counter resets to 108:00 it doesn't start immediatly counting down. Since the seconds don't tick and they've never left the 108:00 on the screen for a full minute to know how long it takes to go from 108:00 to 107:00 it could be that the remaining time from the previous counter is still allowed to elapse before ticking down the counter again.

I'm not saying this is what happens because we obviously don't know for sure, but it is plausible and would explain the printout. It would keep the deadlines 108 minutes apart.


----------



## Fish Man

murrays said:


> If you were Desmond, would you wait for the entire 4 minutes after the alarm started going off to enter the code and hit "execute"? I wouldn't! Maybe once in awhile, but not 10 times in a row as the printout shows with 129042:05, 1290411:05 & 130048:05.
> 
> -murray


Something similar to this has been discussed before.

From all the different episodes that showed us the countdown timer, I (and others) have surmised that you must enter the code during the last 4 minutes of the 108 minute countdown. When you do that, the counter immediately resets to 108. *HOWEVER,* _it does not begin counting down again until the entire 108 minutes has elapsed._ That is to say, if the operator enters the code with 3 minutes remaining, the counter resets and then sits there on 108 for those last three minutes before it begins counting down again.

So, in other words, the counter counts *exactly* 108 minute cycles, and the code must be entered within the last 4 minutes of each cycle.

If we extrapolate this to the printout, it's possible that a new entry is entered into the printout at the exact 108 minute mark, even if the numbers were entered with a couple of minutes to spare.

When the 108 minutes elapses, however, it begins spewing that "system failure" spooge.

EDIT: Or, what stalemate said!


----------



## stalemate

Fish Man said:


> So, in other words, the counter counts *exactly* 108 minute cycles, and the code must be entered within the last 4 minutes of each cycle.


I have written code before that had to run on time intervals. When I finished the work for one interval, it was a requirement that the code start working again 1 interval after the previous beginning.

For example, if the interval was 60 seconds and my previous round of work actually took 23 seconds to perform, the program would go to sleep for 37 second and wake up and do the work again. This would put the beginning of each cycle exactly 60 seconds apart.

Since I know I've had to do stuff like this before, it seems very plausible that this is how the hatch counter could work.


----------



## murrays

Fish Man said:


> Something similar to this has been discussed before...


Yes, that makes sense and is mentioned on http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Printout

Another thing mentioned is that the time stamp format changed. From the link, we see 41602059:29 instead of 129045:41 on the printout. What's with that?

-murray


----------



## paulstefano

lightfoot215 said:


> I hope this is new stuff. I'm new to this thread, and haven't read it all...
> 
> If you read the text carefully above Widmore's picture on the back of the race brochure, 18 minutes into the show, you can make out a few words like "surprise. We were not expecting..." and "ran down a rubber dinghy." I googled the latter phrase, and found this paragraph, which seems to match the one on the brochure.
> 
> There was a mass of spectator craft out in the Solent - that came as a surprise. We were not expecting so many people and it made it difficult to steer especially since there was no marshalling to speak of. We almost ran down a rubber dinghy, but managed somehow to avoid it at the last minute.
> 
> It's from the Volvo Ocean Race website. I would post the link, but being new to posting, I'm not being permitted to post any urls until my fifth post. But you can google it yourself.
> 
> Does anyone know if this is a real race? Or is this just the production crew cutting and pasting? Or is this just a very weak product placement from Volvo?


The Volvo Ocean Race is Real. It just passed through Baltimore, where I live. I believe the next stop was in New York somewhere. I immediately thought of this when I watched the episode. I'm sure they modeled the Widmore race after it.


----------



## vtfan99

murrays said:


> Yes, that makes sense and is mentioned on http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Printout
> 
> Another thing mentioned is that the time stamp format changed. From the link, we see 41602059:29 instead of 129045:41 on the printout. What's with that?
> 
> -murray


Interesting. I can make sense of the one posted above...but on the link...the extra digit....strange.


----------



## RangersRBack

Jeeters said:


> I don't believe it is Mathew Fox. Yeah, a few still shots make it look like him, but i've seen shots of Catherine Bell that look *exactly* like an ex girlfriend of mine.


Wait you have an ex-girlfriend that looks like Catherine Bell? Was she an anatomically correct version of Catherine Bell?

If so, why is she an EX-girlfriend!!!


----------



## lexsar

Go to the followin URL, there's a still shot of one of the guys in the artic/antartic station

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/gallery/223.html?photo=89

Looks like it could be Matthew Fox, doesn't it?

(Sorry if this has been covered before, couldn't look through all 19+ pages of comments)


----------



## milo99

MickeS said:


> By the way, here's my theory about the ending: maybe the boat race was just a setup by her father, to get Desmond away from her for good. He had this experiment going, and knew what would happen if he could only get Desmond to sail by there. And then she found out, and knew only that the experiment had to do with electromagnetism, so she talked to a couple of guys that she knew at the company, and told them to call her if they found any EM anomalies during their work (which they would've done anyway).
> 
> Who knows.  Can't wait until fall!


*phew* this is what i get for waiting a day to watch. 600 posts to go through before i can respond!! 

i kind of thought of this too, except i don't see how Dad would have counted on Desmond finding tens of thousands of dollars to get a boat and then actually do the race. there was no reason for him to be able to count on that.

HOWEVER.

the rest of it i think could be the case. Since Penny knew that Desmond was doing the race, and she knew about her Dad's activities, IF Dad is involved in Dharma, she perhaps knew that the boat race would lead Desmond to this experiment that involves EM, and she knew to look for the EM activity to figure out where the island is.

Now as to the people arguing about Elizabeth not being Libby:

not trying to be a poopy sport, but COME ON guys! Seriously, you're WAYYYY over analyzing here. there are bigger things to argue about on this show to waste that many posts on this argument. Damnit, makes catching up really difficult when you have to weed through 50 posts on inane arguments like that  ...ok, rant done.


----------



## milo99

lexsar said:


> Go to the followin URL, there's a still shot of one of the guys in the artic/antartic station
> 
> http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/gallery/223.html?photo=89
> 
> Looks like it could be Matthew Fox, doesn't it?
> 
> (Sorry if this has been covered before, couldn't look through all 19+ pages of comments)


hey, *I* did it, so can you. yes, it's been covered. a lot. somewhere in the first couple hundred posts. 


but seriously, the whole subject of 'smeeking' has been covered before- if you don't have the courtesy to read others' posts first before getting what you want out, why should we bother to read what you have to say? it really just compounds the problem of catching up if people keep doing this. Not going off on you Lexsar, because I don't know how many times in the 580+ posts I saw something to the effect of "i don't know if someone mentioned it" or "i didn't read all the posts".


----------



## thenightfly42

Assuming that the 108 minute cycle of pushing the button is tied to the electromagnetic charge building up, there have been 3 or 4 scenes where someone wearing something metal has found it attracted to the electromagnet (Eko's cross, Jack's gun key). Has this always occurred close to the end of the 108 minute cycle?

Probably means nothing at all, and probably impossible to check. Just thought I'd throw it out there.


----------



## thenightfly42

durl said:


> One thing I'm curious about is whether Libby met Desmond before or after her time in the hospital. I'm guessing after. Hurley's "Dave" and Libby's "David" seem like more than just a coincidence.


The meeting between Libby and Desmond was about 4 years prior to the crash, based on Desmond spending 3 years in the hatch, plus a year to train for the race. According to the unofficial timeline, Hurley was released from the hospital about 1 year prior to the crash. Although we don't know how long he spent there, I believe it puts the Libby/Desmond meeting prior to her time in the hospital.


----------



## KRS

Why would Kelvin and his hatchmate paint their map of the island in "invisible ink" (aka Tide) on the back of a blast door? Wouldn't the map be something they would want to study and consult frequently if they were trying to figure things out?

When the hatch door fell out of the sky, I first thought it was from a hatch in the sky, like in The Truman Show. But I suppose it was more likely the original hatch door with "Quarantine" painted on it.

And speaking of quarantine - when Desmond noticed Kelvin's suit had a rip, he was rightly suspicious. But does that mean that the whole quaranting thing is a scare tactic part of the experiment to keep the subjects in line, or do those suits and injections actually do anything? 

Where can I get me some of that Dharma Initiative Scotch?


----------



## murrays

On the whole getting ride of Desmond theory, there seems to be too many factors that would have to fall just right for this to succeed and I dont see Jack Bauer anywhere  I have a few thoughts:

-Setting up the race with the sole intention of getting rid of Desmond just makes no sense. 

-Elisabeth (and the boat) could have been a plant by Widmore or Penny, this would be easy to accomplish, though we dont know how they would have known that Desmond was intending to enter the race before that. They would have to have someone trail Desmond pretty close to figure that out.

-Waiting for a storm and Desmond to hit his head seems too random to be planned. Id think they would simply board the sail boat when Desmond is asleep and drug him ala Claire.

-Did Kelvin know Desmond was coming? Another big variable to just assume Kelvin would find him while out for a stroll. Though weve never seen any indication of recent contact between Kelvin and anyone else.


We know that Penny knew Desmond was doing the race. Its reasonable to assume that she was tracking the progress and was aware of his disappearance and the area of the world he was in at the time. Its also reasonable that she was aware of some of the research going on and was conducting a search with the faint hope that his disappearance was connected somehow.

The show definitely has a trend of lots of coincidences without a master plan. I guess Im thinking Desmonds crash on the island is another coincidence, but Pennys search is planned.

-murray


----------



## mqpickles

MacThor: I won't quote your whole post #566, but good stuff in there! Especially interesting that this episode takes place on Thanksgiving Day.

I'd been thinking about the time line and how the Losties are at around Thanksgiving 2004, but didn't realize it was exact.


----------



## philw1776

milo99 said:


> hey, *I* did it, so can you. yes, it's been covered. a lot. somewhere in the first couple hundred posts.
> 
> 
> but seriously, the whole subject of 'smeeking' has been covered before- if you don't have the courtesy to read others' posts first before getting what you want out, why should we bother to read what you have to say? it really just compounds the problem of catching up if people keep doing this. Not going off on you Lexsar, because I don't know how many times in the 580+ posts I saw something to the effect of "i don't know if someone mentioned it" or "i didn't read all the posts".


I DO read all the posts but I disagree somewhat. This is a TiVo site. Therefore there should be a large # of folks who watch the show later and don't have an opportunity to comment until later. It's impractical for most folks to read thru all those pages. It'n not like the non-smeek commentary is world shaking what with all the "Elizabeth is not Libby" nonsense.

Smeeks after a dozen pages of posts should be tolerated in good humor. Ignore them


----------



## jradford

murrays said:


> On the whole getting ride of Desmond theory, there seems to be too many factors that would have to fall just right for this to succeed and I dont see Jack Bauer anywhere  I have a few thoughts:
> 
> -Setting up the race with the sole intention of getting rid of Desmond just makes no sense.
> 
> -Elisabeth (and the boat) could have been a plant by Widmore or Penny, this would be easy to accomplish, though we dont know how they would have known that Desmond was intending to enter the race before that. They would have to have someone trail Desmond pretty close to figure that out.
> 
> -Waiting for a storm and Desmond to hit his head seems too random to be planned. Id think they would simply board the sail boat when Desmond is asleep and drug him ala Claire.
> 
> -Did Kelvin know Desmond was coming? Another big variable to just assume Kelvin would find him while out for a stroll. Though weve never seen any indication of recent contact between Kelvin and anyone else.
> 
> We know that Penny knew Desmond was doing the race. Its reasonable to assume that she was tracking the progress and was aware of his disappearance and the area of the world he was in at the time. Its also reasonable that she was aware of some of the research going on and was conducting a search with the faint hope that his disappearance was connected somehow.
> 
> The show definitely has a trend of lots of coincidences without a master plan. I guess Im thinking Desmonds crash on the island is another coincidence, but Pennys search is planned.
> 
> -murray


I agree with many of these thoughts. I guess the thought that Dharma can create waves and a storm is a little bit out there, but no telling what the power of this magnetic anomaly could be.

On the 1st point, though. I was under the impression that this race had taken place before, or that if it hadn't, it wasn't conceived purely to trap Desmond, but actually to be a race that a rich guy would like to put on. Or maybe a race that a rich guy puts on every few years when he needs a new recruit to help some stranger in the middle of nowhere push the button??


----------



## HoosierFan

If the purpose of "pushing the button" is to relieve the elecromagnetic pressure, and the button is pushed at 105 minutes, wouldn't whatever is done to relieve the pressure be done at that time? And wouldn't it then start to build up again starting from that point?

If it sat for 3 minutes to start counting down, it could theoretically go for 111 minutes before going off.


----------



## Tsiehta

HoosierFan said:


> If the purpose of "pushing the button" is to relieve the elecromagnetic pressure, and the button is pushed at 105 minutes, wouldn't whatever is done to relieve the pressure be done at that time? And wouldn't it then start to build up again starting from that point?
> 
> If it sat for 3 minutes to start counting down, it could theoretically go for 111 minutes before going off.


Aha!


----------



## MickeS

stalemate said:


> I have written code before that had to run on time intervals. When I finished the work for one interval, it was a requirement that the code start working again 1 interval after the previous beginning.
> 
> For example, if the interval was 60 seconds and my previous round of work actually took 23 seconds to perform, the program would go to sleep for 37 second and wake up and do the work again. This would put the beginning of each cycle exactly 60 seconds apart.
> 
> Since I know I've had to do stuff like this before, it seems very plausible that this is how the hatch counter could work.


Except that they stated in the show that what was done when "the button was pushed" was release some electromagnetic build-up, which had to be done every 108 minutes. If someone entered the code when the alarm began blaring (at 104 minutes), and then the counter would go to sleep for four minutes after the reset, that would make the next "release-cycle" 112 minutes, which would lead to overload. Unless of course the release was also delayed, which I guess is a possibility.... 

EDIT: damn, a little too late.


----------



## stalemate

MickeS said:


> If someone entered the code when the alarm began blaring (at 104 minutes), and then the counter would go to sleep for four minutes after the reset, that would make the next "release-cycle" 112 minutes, which would lead to overload.


Or they might know that any interval greater than 112 minutes causes overload, so they set the timer at 108 and give you a 4 minute window in which to push the button.

We have already seen that it isn't a disaster immediately when 108 minutes have elapsed and the timer reaches 0. There is some amount of time during which the symbols spin around and even after the symbols stop flashing it was still some time before things got really out of hand.


----------



## milo99

philw1776 said:


> I DO read all the posts but I disagree somewhat. This is a TiVo site. Therefore there should be a large # of folks who watch the show later and don't have an opportunity to comment until later. It's impractical for most folks to read thru all those pages. It'n not like the non-smeek commentary is world shaking what with all the "Elizabeth is not Libby" nonsense.
> 
> Smeeks after a dozen pages of posts should be tolerated in good humor. Ignore them


eh, i never said it was practical, just more courteous. If they plan on reading all the posts, then why not just wait until they do so? If they DON'T plan on reading all the posts, then that's rather pretentious of someone, don't you think?

but at least we agree on the Libby/Elizabeth inanity


----------



## murrays

HoosierFan said:


> If the purpose of "pushing the button" is to relieve the elecromagnetic pressure, and the button is pushed at 105 minutes, wouldn't whatever is done to relieve the pressure be done at that time? And wouldn't it then start to build up again starting from that point?
> 
> If it sat for 3 minutes to start counting down, it could theoretically go for 111 minutes before going off.


...and it seems the flying forks and stuff seemed to happen pretty quickly after the count hit zero. Some of it is TV drama, of course, but this show seems pretty tight on the details.

-murray


----------



## jubrand

KRS said:


> Why would Kelvin and his hatchmate paint their map of the island in "invisible ink" (aka Tide) on the back of a blast door? Wouldn't the map be something they would want to study and consult frequently if they were trying to figure things out?
> 
> When the hatch door fell out of the sky, I first thought it was from a hatch in the sky, like in The Truman Show. But I suppose it was more likely the original hatch door with "Quarantine" painted on it.
> 
> And speaking of quarantine - when Desmond noticed Kelvin's suit had a rip, he was rightly suspicious. But does that mean that the whole quaranting thing is a scare tactic part of the experiment to keep the subjects in line, or do those suits and injections actually do anything?
> 
> Where can I get me some of that Dharma Initiative Scotch?


Maybe they don't want the people in the Pearl hatch to see it.


----------



## milo99

> Originally Posted by KRS
> Why would Kelvin and his hatchmate paint their map of the island in "invisible ink" (aka Tide) on the back of a blast door? Wouldn't the map be something they would want to study and consult frequently if they were trying to figure things out?
> 
> When the hatch door fell out of the sky, I first thought it was from a hatch in the sky, like in The Truman Show. But I suppose it was more likely the original hatch door with "Quarantine" painted on it.
> 
> And speaking of quarantine - when Desmond noticed Kelvin's suit had a rip, he was rightly suspicious. But does that mean that the whole quaranting thing is a scare tactic part of the experiment to keep the subjects in line, or do those suits and injections actually do anything?
> 
> Where can I get me some of that Dharma Initiative Scotch?





jubrand said:


> Maybe they don't want the people in the Pearl hatch to see it.


but that would mean that they know that the pearl hatch monitors them. desmond didn't seem to be aware of that....


----------



## jubrand

milo99 said:


> but that would mean that they know that the pearl hatch monitors them. desmond didn't seem to be aware of that....


Kelvin could have known, and Desmond would have just played along.


----------



## Mike Farrington

Desmond kept calling Locke "Box Man", but I don't remember Desmond ever learning of John's previous employment.


----------



## stalemate

Mike Farrington said:


> Desmond kept calling Locke "Box Man", but I don't remember Desmond ever learning of John's previous employment.


From the second episode of the second season, entitled Adrift:

[At the hatch.]

DESMOND: Are you -- are you him?

LOCKE: Yes. Yes I am.

DESMOND: I can't believe it. You're finally here.

LOCKE: Well, here I am.

DESMOND: Who's she.

LOCKE: She's with me.

DESMOND: What did one snowman say to the other snowman?

LOCKE: I don't know what you're talking about.

DESMOND: Get rid of the knife. You're not him.

LOCKE [discarding his knife]: We didn't come here to hurt you.

DESMOND: Yeah, then why did you come?

KATE: We were in a plane crash.

DESMOND: Were you now? And when was that?

LOCKE: 44 days ago.

DESMOND: 44 days? Move.

LOCKE: How long have you been down here?

DESMOND: Shut it. [He throws a rope to Kate] Tie him up. Do it!

LOCKE: Wait. Wait, wait -- you're tying up the wrong person.

DESMOND: How's that, brother?

LOCKE: It's pointless to tie me up, I'm not dangerous. But her, she's a fugitive.

DESMOND: So, what does that make you then, brother?

LOCKE: I'm a regional collections manager for a cardboard manufacturer -- boxes primarily.

DESMOND: All right then, box man, tie her up.


----------



## Tsiehta

stalemate said:


> From the second episode of the second season, entitled Adrift:
> 
> [At the hatch.]
> 
> DESMOND: All right then, box man, tie her up.


Can you please try to be more accurate when making your point? Thanks.


----------



## dswallow

stalemate said:


> Or they might know that any interval greater than 112 minutes causes overload, so they set the timer at 108 and give you a 4 minute window in which to push the button.
> 
> We have already seen that it isn't a disaster immediately when 108 minutes have elapsed and the timer reaches 0. There is some amount of time during which the symbols spin around and even after the symbols stop flashing it was still some time before things got really out of hand.


For that matter, the symbols shown after 108 minutes have elapsed probably had some meaning, too...


----------



## stalemate

Tsiehta said:


> Can you please try to be more accurate when making your point? Thanks.


  I thought the whole scene was interesting showing how Desmond's treatment of Locke and Kate was exactly like Kelvin's initial treatment of Desmond. I kept fumbling around figuring out how much context to add and I eventually just pasted the whole thing.


----------



## stalemate

dswallow said:


> For that matter, the symbols shown after 108 minutes have elapsed probably had some meaning, too...


I'd like to find a good screenshot of what the symbols finally settle in on. I wonder if it has been the same 5 final symbols both times.


----------



## Mike Farrington

stalemate said:


> I'd like to find a good screenshot of what the symbols finally settle in on. I wonder if it has been the same 5 final symbols both times.


http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Lost0223_hieroglyphssystemfailure.png


----------



## philw1776

milo99 said:


> eh, i never said it was practical, just more courteous. If they plan on reading all the posts, then why not just wait until they do so? If they DON'T plan on reading all the posts, then that's rather pretentious of someone, don't you think?
> 
> but at least we agree on the Libby/Elizabeth inanity


Sorry, I do not mean to criticize anyone advocating courtesy. Good for you. 
I was commenting as you observed on the practicality of reading (and remembering) N pages after viewing a show later with a TiVo.


----------



## stalemate

Mike Farrington said:


> http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Lost0223_hieroglyphssystemfailure.png


It was the same set of symbols when Desmond caused the crash and when Locke and Desmond let the timer run out. I wonder what they mean.


----------



## cherry ghost

stalemate said:


> It was the same set of symbols when Desmond caused the crash and when Locke and Desmond let the timer run out. I wonder what they mean.


the causative mood of the verb "to die"


----------



## getreal

I thought Des was calling Locke "Boss man" ... thanks for clearing that up for those of us who missed that detail.

And the casting agent sure did find Matthew Fox's doppleganger when they cast Len Cordova to play the ice station researcher with the toque and nerdy glasses.


----------



## Delta13

cherry ghost said:


> the causative mood of the verb "to die"


I'm betting the causative mood of "to die" is a pretty gloomy one.


----------



## drew2k

jubrand said:


> KRS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would Kelvin and his hatchmate paint their map of the island in "invisible ink" (aka Tide) on the back of a blast door? Wouldn't the map be something they would want to study and consult frequently if they were trying to figure things out?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they don't want the people in the Pearl hatch to see it.
Click to expand...

Hmmph. Asked and answered. I guess I was being ignored!


----------



## sirfergy

You all do realize that every episode of Lost ends with the Lost logo right? Until then the show is still on.


----------



## pallendo

NYDR27 said:


> Also, I think that John Locke and Ecko are still alive. Desmond said that he had to sacrifice his life to save another because John basically saved his life when he found the hatch. So it's basically one life in exchange for the other. Besides, don't you think that Charlie would have said something at the end of the episode if he saw John and Ecko die? Admittedly, he was acting strange, but he was still able to have some normal interaction with Claire.


Here's something odd... My wife works with a Research power MRI machine. Most clinical MRI scanners are 1.5T in strength (T=Tesla=a measure of magnetic strength) the MRI machine she works with is 4T, plus it's an fMRI (Functional MRI, can tell you what parts of your brain are being activated during specific tasks). Some people come out of the machine a little bit dazed. Imagine if you up the strength a thousandfold. Might impair your short term memory for a while.

-Peter


----------



## KRS

drew2k said:


> Hmmph. Asked and answered. I guess I was being ignored!


Sorry - my eyes were probably bleeding from trying to read the whole thread before posting my questions. But it still does raise the interesting point - how much did Kelvin know about the reality of the experiment. Did he know they were being watched? Did he know for sure that he didn't need a suit? Did he really die when he hit his head on those rocks?



mitchb2 said:


> How about this: Libby's husband died in Hurley's deck accident. She was going to take revenge, but after he won the lottery, she decided to get close to him and take him for his money.
> 
> Also, Penelope bought the boat, planted a tracking device on it, and had Libby gift it to Desmond.
> But the tracking device is only visible when the island's electromagnetic shield is down.


What is funny is that I can't tell if your theories are serious or not, but I find them intriguing!

The problem I have with the boat gift being planned is that it seemed to hinge on Libby paying for Desmond's drink. How would Pen or her father be able to know that Desmond would stop for a latte and also not have any $US on him? Desmond's interaction with Libby seemed pretty organic, and she offered the boat because she knew her dead husband wouldn't have wanted it wasting away unused.

Unless, of course, there is no dead husband!


----------



## ducker

HoosierFan said:


> If the purpose of "pushing the button" is to relieve the elecromagnetic pressure, and the button is pushed at 105 minutes, wouldn't whatever is done to relieve the pressure be done at that time? And wouldn't it then start to build up again starting from that point?
> 
> If it sat for 3 minutes to start counting down, it could theoretically go for 111 minutes before going off.


I still think if this was the case then depending on how quickly they hit the butting (ie. RIGHT when the warning buzz sounded) and then during the following count down if they waited until the end there would be SOME eletromagnetic force. If it's something "natural."

So, I'd guess either the print out is BS - and the times are just generic, Or there isn't really any "pressure" released by hitting the button... it's the other way around. If the counter hits 0 a chain of events go in to effect, intentionally... As a result of the counter hitting 0.

not as a result of NOT venting some sort of electromagnetic field of some type.

Perhaps turning the key that Desmond had, turns off the whole system.


----------



## Jericho Dog

sirfergy said:


> You all do realize that every episode of Lost ends with the Lost logo right? Until then the show is still on.


That's why I was still watching.

Don't know why people turned away so easily.


----------



## Delta13

I think Desmond accepted the offer because Libby's husband was named David. It was a sign to him. I think Libby's offer was sincere, and just plain happenstance. Remember, she seemed to want to help people (and Hurley even said "She helped lots of people" in her funeral speech.)

I think Widmore putting her up to giving Desmond the boat is bit over the top. Why not just have him eliminated?


----------



## DVDerek

Ok, I might be Smeeking here - I finally got a chance to watch the show last night. I read through the first ten pages of this thread but I just can't read another 11. I did a search for "groups" in this thread and no relevant information popped up...

I'm now more certain than ever that there are two groups of "others." The "other" Sawyer shot in the woods would be a "true primative" while the group we see at the end are the one's who are not, in Walt's words, "Who they say they are."

This was a heated topic for debate a couple episodes ago, with most saying the two groups theory was shot... I still cling to it!


----------



## ireland967

I just watched the Jimmy Kimmel show from Wednesday night, and they had a mostly cheesy "interview" with a representative from the Hanso Foundation. Didn't add much, but there was one bit that I don't recall being mentioned in an episode -



Spoiler



the Dharma initiative project was abandoned in 1987.


----------



## mqpickles

DVDerek said:


> Ok, I might be Smeeking here - I finally got a chance to watch the show last night. I read through the first ten pages of this thread but I just can't read another 11. I did a search for "groups" in this thread and no relevant information popped up...
> 
> I'm now more certain than ever that there are two groups of "others." The "other" Sawyer shot in the woods would be a "true primative" while the group we see at the end are the one's who are not, in Walt's words, "Who they say they are."
> 
> This was a heated topic for debate a couple episodes ago, with most saying the two groups theory was shot... I still cling to it!


What makes you think the guy Sawyer shot is a "true primitive"?

Btw, I never bought the 2GOO theory and I still don't see any evidence of it. Unless you count Kelvin and Desmond as a GOO.


----------



## nataylor

ireland967 said:


> I just watched the Jimmy Kimmel show from Wednesday night, and they had a mostly cheesy "interview" with a representative from the Hanso Foundation. Didn't add much, but there was one bit that I don't recall being mentioned in an episode -
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> the Dharma initiative project was abandoned in 1987.


Now might be a good time to flee. The spoiler mob is gathering pitchforks and torches now...


----------



## Church AV Guy

MickeS said:


> Except that they stated in the show that what was done when "the button was pushed" was release some electromagnetic build-up, which had to be done every 108 minutes. If someone entered the code when the alarm began blaring (at 104 minutes), and then the counter would go to sleep for four minutes after the reset, that would make the next "release-cycle" 112 minutes, which would lead to overload. Unless of course the release was also delayed, which I guess is a possibility....
> 
> EDIT: damn, a little too late.


The build-up happens and eventually reaches a critical level. The code must be entered, and the execute button pressed in a narrow window of the 108 minute cycle. Entering the code and pressing the button resets the counter, and tells whatever is operating in the Swan Station to release the buildup at the critical moment, not at the moment the button is pressed. Once the buildup is purged, the timer is restarted. It was reset when the button was pressed, but it was restarted by the same equipment that generated and released the buildup. That's why the time stamps for the reset events are so precise. The execute key sets the system to release the overload at the critical moment. If the buildup is not released at that moment, then the malfunction happens.

It's like filling a bottle. Everything is fine if the bottle is emptied before it overflows, but if it isn't emptied on time, and it starts to overflow, there is a problem because that overflow is very serious indeed.

That's my take on the button. The only real issue is, why is the window to enter the code and execute so small? That seems cruel to the station occupants, unless there is a really good reason that we haven't been told. Since the station is probably no longer active, answers to these questions are unlikely to be forthcoming.

I wonder if turning the key back "on" will reactivate the bunker?


----------



## niea_7

nataylor said:


> Now might be a good time to flee. The spoiler mob is gathering pitchforks and torches now...


Righty-o. Ya know, I'm not even one to care too much about spoilers. I watch the previews and read about which actors/actresses are in which episodes, and all that but even having _that_ unspoilerized annoyed me. There's a reason that detail was never in any episode.


----------



## Delta13

Ponderings, in no particular order:

* Apple ][s were not Y2K compliant, this is true. But this is probably meaningless in the case of the printouts. The computer might understand the year to be 1904, due to the bug, but the printout is in 2 digit years. A straight report like that usually meant no harm, no foul. In other words, the report was FIFO. Now, putting the data in a spreadsheet and asking it to figure things out would be dicey.

* This is assuming that the computer in the Swan hatch was even doing the printing. Wherever the mainframe is might be doing it instead, after getting the numbers inputted from the Swan station. (I assume a mainframe, since they seem to be using TTY emulation software.) Either way, I don't consider it to be a problem.

* The wonderful flying hatch! Since it was already removed and just laying on top of the hatch's upper entrance, if there was a return pulse reversing the magnetism then it is very possible that this cover could have been blasted off in the air. About 2 miles or so it looks. (Yikes!) Ironically Desmond might have been in the best place to hide from this "return".

* The blast doors might have been built to protect the computer and systems from an incident. Otherwise folks, we just saw the world's largest degausser in action. Not a ROM or RAM in range will have data in it. And the Swan station's video was on film? It'll make it, but there sure were a ton of mag tapes hanging around. They be blank now.

* So the only 2 people who know about the Pearl hatch might be dead or better yet (as someone noted) have a little memory problem. Which means Eko will have forgotten his lesson about trying to blow up a heavy metal blast door, shaped *against* the blast, with 2 sticks of old dynamite. 

* When the Hurleybird showed up, my closed-captioning said "bird screeching 'Hurley' " every time he squawked.

Otherwise, I liked the episode. I just don't think it was the best episode ever, and it didn't knock my socks off like Abrams said it would. It was good, just not superfantastalistic. All I ask is you be gentle with me.


----------



## darthrsg

MacThor said:


> I think Charlie has turned or been "infected." That sinister smile when he found Locke crying -- he seemed to be getting great pleasure in another man's pain. Also, he's trying to get Claire to inject Aaron with the same vaccine that Ethan was using on her while pregnant.


Lock was an ass to Charlie...the whole heroin thing remember?


----------



## Church AV Guy

Delta13 said:


> Ponderings, in no particular order:
> .
> .
> .
> * This is assuming that the computer in the Swan hatch was even doing the printing. Wherever the mainframe is might be doing it instead, after getting the numbers inputted from the Swan station. (I assume a mainframe, since they seem to be using TTY emulation software.) Either way, I don't consider it to be a problem.
> 
> * The wonderful flying hatch! Since it was already removed and just laying on top of the hatch's upper entrance, if there was a return pulse reversing the magnetism then it is very possible that this cover could have been blasted off in the air. About 2 miles or so it looks. (Yikes!) Ironically Desmond might have been in the best place to hide from this "return".
> .
> .
> .


The printing was done in the Pearl station as was clearly shown in the episode "?" a few weeks ago. It looked like a similar machine to the one in Swan station, but who knows. They never showed the computer for very long, and who is to say that whatever machine they started with wasn't extensively modified for their own purposes. It was a dot matrix printer and the ribbon had not dried out. that is pretty suspicious.

If a reversed polarity magnetic pulse were to have taken place, the hatch would have physically rotated so its magnetic field was reoriented to match that of the reversed polarity pulse and have been even more strongly attracted to the source of the magnetism. Try it with a couple of magnets if you don't believe me. An unconstrained magnet will always reorient itself to match an external magnetic field and become attracted to, and a part of that magnetic field. It can only "fly away" if it is physically constrained to prevent its reorientation. The piece of metal was just lying there, unconstrained, so a magnetic pulse could not have caused it to fly off like that.

This is television though. The writers do NOT have to obey the laws of physics.


----------



## gchance

mqpickles said:


> What makes you think the guy Sawyer shot is a "true primitive"?
> 
> Btw, I never bought the 2GOO theory and I still don't see any evidence of it. Unless you count Kelvin and Desmond as a GOO.


GOOGOOGOOGOOBADBADBADBADGOOGOOGOOBADGOOGOOGOOBAD

Greg


----------



## Delta13

Maybe it was an inverted tachyon field then. Ya know, just a little something to vent the drive plasma, er, electromagnetism, turn the sky white/violet, and make a very large sound with the collector dish built under the Swan station


----------



## Richard R1

sirfergy said:


> You all do realize that every episode of Lost ends with the Lost logo right? Until then the show is still on.





Jericho Dog said:


> That's why I was still watching.
> 
> Don't know why people turned away so easily.


Okay, it DID look like a beer commercial! I sat there half expecting the Silver Bullet to come screaming through the picture any second.

As for me though, I was still watching because I was in shock! My brain had not yet formed the idea of picking up the remote to FF, or whatever. Then of course, I was jolted back to normal when I realized it was not a commercial.

Plus, I didn't think it was the end of the episode. My original thought was that they were showing a commercial, and there might be some brief follow-up afterwards before the technical end of the episode.


----------



## thatmeowgirl

cwoody222 said:


> There has been NO rumors whatsoever that Eko, Locke, Michael or Walt won't be returning.
> 
> Walt will most likely stay a recurring character like he was this year.
> 
> The producers have said in the past that Walt is important to the show and they're not that worried about his growth to write him off or anything. They can deal with it.


Casting Spoilers for next season:



Spoiler



In addition to the two female roles, the show is also adding a new hunk. Descriptions are: Female, 30s, with leadership qualities. Female, early 20s, very attractive. Male, Latino, early 20s, handsome, mysterious quality. My guess? These are some of the "background" survivors that Carlton Cuse told me would emerge next season. Source: The Ausiello Report

Obviously, Michael Emerson, who plays Henry Gale, he's someone who's going to be very prominent in the show next year." Fans were also introduced to a new character who promises to figure in next season's storylines: Penelope Widmore, played by Sonya Walger. [...] "I'm excited about love in season three," said executive producer Bryan Burk, adding: "Don't forget now the people have been on the island for 60-plus days. They're now obviously more familiar with each other. ... The concept of love is there, and... it weaves its way through all of our characters. It's going to be much more prevalent in season three." Source: Sci Fi Wire

05/24 - According to the Hollywood Reporter, ABC's Lost is on the hunt for two new actresses to join the cast for Season 3, now that the show's distaff ranks have been quickly depleted by the twin killings of Michelle Rodriguez's Ana Lucia and Cynthia Watros' Libby. Source: TV Guide Online

05/22 - Harold Perrineau is not a regular for next season. He could be back as a guest star (à la Walt this season) but not as a regular cast member.


----------



## drew2k

thatmeowgirl said:


> Casting Spoilers for next season:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to the two female roles,


Do you have a link? I know ONE of the (see spoiler) but not BOTH...

Thanks.

ETA: Never mind - I'll just google the sources you attribute the spoilers to. Thanks!


----------



## quaz_the_panther

lordargent said:


> This is the same Charlie that we presume attacked Sun. The man is a ticking time bomb.


We have yet to find out what happened to Charlie when he was captured...

Tammy


----------



## thatmeowgirl

drew2k said:


> Do you have a link? I know ONE of the (see spoiler) but not BOTH...
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ETA: Never mind - I'll just google the sources you attribute the spoilers to. Thanks!





Spoiler



spoilerfix.com


who?


----------



## tivogurl

Delta13 said:


> And the Swan station's video was on film? It'll make it, but there sure were a ton of mag tapes hanging around. They be blank now.


Including, notably, the orientation video from the other hatch.


----------



## Delta13

Very nice! I had forgotten about it. So what was left in the hatch, and what wasn't?

In:

computer - goner
Pearl tape - goner
Swan film - possibly okay. Nothing to play it on, though.
lotta dishes and silverware - lots of bent metal, goners
books - unknown
records - unknown. Same as Swan film.
water supply? - unknown. But Jack's line about a busted pipe to Kate awhile back may have come true.
appliances - modern ones gone, motor-based ones probably too
Electricity - probably gone
that damned 108:00 clock - *toast*
Desmond - unknown
Locke - unknown
Eko - unknown
JesusStick - unknown

Out:
guns and ammo
medical supplies (except for what Jack had down there for Libby)
most of the canned/boxed food
vaccine
wine
Charlie
everyone else

What else am I missing?


----------



## DLiquid

Wow, I read the whole thread!

Desmond thinks that not pushing the button caused the plane to crash. He seemed to assume the giant magnet ripped it out of the sky (I know members here have disputed the plausibility of that). If the magnetic force were that great, shouldn't the guns have come flying out of the Others hands during the scene at the dock?


----------



## BrettStah

We like the episode a lot! I want to re-watch it... so much good stuff in it I'm sure I missed some!


----------



## vikingguy

I loved the episode much better than last years finale. I just wish they could of saved anna lucia's death for this episode and it would of been perfect.

Last years finale pissed me off seemed like a cheap ploy to give the writers time to make a plan.


----------



## MickeS

DLiquid said:


> Wow, I read the whole thread!
> 
> Desmond thinks that not pushing the button caused the plane to crash. He seemed to assume the giant magnet ripped it out of the sky (I know members here have disputed the plausibility of that). If the magnetic force were that great, shouldn't the guns have come flying out of the Others hands during the scene at the dock?


It could've just been that the magnetism made the plane's equipment stop working.


----------



## greg_burns

Spoilerizing cause not sure where I had heard this info...



Spoiler



Didn't the previews or some spoiler say we would find out how the plane crashed in the finale? Why is everyone doubting the answer given?


----------



## spartanstew

I guess when you wait until Friday to watch LOST, you have to read a couple of posts first. Anyway, not much new to add, but a few comments.



hefe said:


> I was racking my brain trying to remember where I saw the actress whe played Penelope recently.
> 
> She is Sonya Walger, and was on a recent episode of Numb3rs.


I recognized her right away from Mind of the Married Man (as was mentioned) and The US version of Coupling.



devdogaz said:


> What's at 325 degrees from the supposed location of the island? Indonesia? The Phillipines? Japan? Korea?


Perhaps it leads nowhere specifically. It seems that nobody can get away from the island (Desmond came back, for example) and perhaps nobody off the island can get to the island (it's cloaked or something). However, maybe there's a small window of space - a path, if you will - that allows the people that know about it to come and go as they please. That path is along 325 degrees.



Mike Wells said:


> RE: the fake hatch door
> Possibly created to fool Michael? Maybe that whole camp is fake? The huts kinda looked fake to me.


That was my thought. The camp was fake and they intended to grab the "4" during their trek to avoid the possiblilty of an ambush (ala Sayid).



jeff125va said:


> I started to fast-forward - actually, 30 second skip - and I might have kept on going except that for a split second I noticed something about "electromagnetic" something-or-other, and then realized that the picture was widescreen instead of boxed 4:3 like most commercials.


I just kept watching the ABC logo in the corner (as someone else mentioned).



brott said:


> The thing that sticks the most in my head is Desmond saying "See you in another life, Brother" as he goes to turn the key. This is the same thing that Desmond stated to Jack in the Stadium at the beginning of the season. I am really beginning to think that "the incident" set off some kind of groundhog-day like scenerio where the Island is stuck in some sort of time-loop.


If he would have said "see you later, alligator" both times, would you still think it's a groundhog scenario? It's just his particular figure of speech.



Sirius Black said:


> That bird that swooped down on them, I didn't hear it "say" anything.


I didn't hear it at first either, but after rewinding and turning on the CC (as someone else mentioned), it was clear that the bird said Hurley.



RunnerFL said:


> Ok, how is it obvious?
> 
> Different makeup style, compared to Libby at the airport in Australia, and different hairstyle. I'm banking on the possibility that it's not Libby but her twin sister. And since everyone is so quick to point out that Libby is short for Elizabeth, which I have never heard, maybe it's Libby's/Elizabeth's twin saying she's Elizabeth...


Wow. Enough. It was obvious.



Lee L said:


> Wow, the eyes in those 2 shots look so close, I would bet money that that is Matthew Fox.


I'll gladly take that bet.



Fraser+Dief said:


> Because I've thought all along that Inman is *also* Fake Beard Guy.
> 
> I'm guessing I'm the only one who thinks this.


Yes, you are.



markz said:


> Okay, after 15 pages, I didn't see this posted. I have seen speculation about what the title meant.
> 
> I am rewatching the show right now and just heard the phrase. Michael & "the 4" are heading towards the others. It's night time and Jack walks up to Michael in the dark. Michael says he is looking for firewood. He then thanks Jack for coming along to try to save his boy. Jack says "Live together, die alone man."


Yes, it was mentioned that it was a quote from the show. It simply means that everyone needs to stick together to survive. If they don't, they'll die.



Richard R1 said:


> From the following website:
> http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Evangeline_Lilly
> 
> "[Evangeline Lilly] Currently in a relationship with fellow cast member Dominic Monaghan. Reputed to be pregnant."
> 
> Now, that's a relationship I would have never guessed!


The relationship was all over the news last summer, before this season even started. But I agree with you that Dominic is way out over his skiis on this one.



philw1776 said:


> I DO read all the posts but I disagree somewhat. This is a TiVo site. Therefore there should be a large # of folks who watch the show later and don't have an opportunity to comment until later. It's impractical for most folks to read thru all those pages. It'n not like the non-smeek commentary is world shaking what with all the "Elizabeth is not Libby" nonsense.
> 
> Smeeks after a dozen pages of posts should be tolerated in good humor. Ignore them


No, they should not be tolerated. I read every post before commenting. Why can't you? If more people would read the darn posts first, the thread would be half as long as it is and those of us that actually care what others think would be able to finish in half the time. It's common courtesy.


----------



## Delta13

Personally, I don't think that's a spoiler Greg, but I'm not a member of the anti-spoiler squad. I believe that was mentioned in many places.

But to answer in general terms, it's because it is Lost, and because many of the fans need to see to believe. Odd, when you think it's a show so deeply intertwined with "faith".

Possibly also because we now know the why, but are not quite sure about the how.


----------



## Fl_Gulfer

I just come here to look at the pictures.


----------



## getreal

Delta13 said:


> ... I liked the episode. I just don't think it was the best episode ever, and it didn't knock my socks off like Abrams said it would.


Okay, Delta13, then which episode was the BEST in your opinion?


----------



## MickeS

Delta13 said:


> I'm betting the causative mood of "to die" is a pretty gloomy one.


Isn't that simply "die"? As in "Die, you bastard!"


----------



## hanumang

getreal said:


> Okay, Delta13, then which episode was the BEST in your opinion?


I can't speak for Delta, but while I _really_ enjoyed this episode, "Walkabout" is still the best _Lost_ episode, in my book. It's what actually got me hooked on the show (I wasn't sold on it before that, honestly).

For those who don't remember titles like that, "Walkabout" was the first Locke episode.


----------



## brott

spartanstew said:


> If he would have said "see you later, alligator" both times, would you still think it's a groundhog scenario? It's just his particular figure of speech.


No, I wouldn't, but "later" is not the same thing as "another life." I realize I'm in the minority (perhaps a minority of one  ), but I think there is some sort of time loop or time distortion going on. It wasn't until this episode that I even considered this possibility. Under this scenario, Desmond would probably be the Star of the show, but he has only been in a small number of the 49 episodes.

P.S. I do agree that Jack at the research station at the end has been debunked. The whole "twin" thing might not be, but the person is not Jack.


----------



## rondotcom

after the bright light-producing, ear piercing noise generating incident at the hatch, Charlie was asked about Locke and Eko. HE replied with "They're not back yet?" As if they were still out "searching" for NotHenry Gale. No one else seemed concerned about the incident, or even talked about

It's like since Desmond turned that key_* IT NEVER HAPPENED*_


----------



## Fish Man

MickeS said:


> Isn't that simply "die"? As in "Die, you bastard!"


"Die you stupid arse who didn't push the button like you were supposed to!"


----------



## wprager

murrays said:


> OTOH, I think the flaw in the timing (either by the writers or Dharma) is still valid.
> -murray


I can come up with a reasonable explanation why the log entries are exactly 108 minutes apart even though the button is pushed at some quasi-random time after 104 minutes.

Assume that the program doing the logging is not the same as (or not even running on the same computer as) the one controlling the mechanical timer, alarm, and unlocking the keyboard. When the number are entered and "Execute" is pressed, this is logged in some "database" (could be as simple as a binary flag); another program queries this database exactly on a 108 minute basis and logs whether the "button" has been pushed on time or not.

I am pretty sure it's already been discussed previously how when the button is pushed and the timer is reset to 108:00, it doesn't actually begin counting down until the full 108 minute interval expires.


----------



## Fish Man

hanumang said:


> I can't speak for Delta, but while I _really_ enjoyed this episode, "Walkabout" is still the best _Lost_ episode, in my book. It's what actually got me hooked on the show (I wasn't sold on it before that, honestly).
> 
> For those who don't remember titles like that, "Walkabout" was the first Locke episode.


Walkabout is definitely my favorite first season episode.

Another extraordinary one was "Numbers", the first Hurley-Centric episode, that introduced us to the "numbers".

I don't think I can really pick a "favorite", but the two listed above are "on the list" of my favorites, as is this season's finale, "Live Together, Die Alone".


----------



## wprager

Fish Man said:


> Walkabout is definitely my favorite first season episode.
> 
> Another extraordinary one was "Numbers", the first Hurley-Centric episode, that introduced us to the "numbers".
> 
> I don't think I can really pick a "favorite", but the two listed above are "on the list" of my favorites, as is this season's finale, "Live Together, Die Alone".


All good ones. My personal favorite is "Outlaws" (Kate and Sawyer playing the "I never" game; excellent writing).


----------



## pallendo

I read all 22 fricken pages and this was NEVER EVEN BROUGHT UP....

If you are lucky enough to have some rare-earth magnets to play with... and you have both a PVC and a copper pipe that are about the same length that happen to be slightly larger ID than the Rare-Earth magnets are around... Drop the magnets through the PVC pipe and record how long it takes to leave the bottom of the pipe, now try it with the copper.

http://my.execpc.com/~rhoadley/magpipes.htm is a link to this type of experiment.
http://www.dansdata.com/magnets.htm If you read down this second link you will find:


> Move a high-powered magnet around on a thick non-magnetic conductive surface - a slab of aluminium or copper, for instance - and you can easily feel magnetic braking at work. The stronger the magnet and the more metal there is (the base of a chunky CPU cooler is an excellent candidate for this experiment, and I've got a few of those kicking around...), the stronger the "syrupy" feeling you'll get. The magnet isn't attracted to or repelled from the surface, but it just doesn't want to move.
> 
> The reason this happens has to do with Lenz's Law. When the magnetic field around a conductor changes - because it's being moved past a magnet, for instance, or because a magnet is being moved past it - a current is induced in that conductor. This happens even if the conductor is just a chunk of metal that you're holding in your hand. Lenz's Law states that the current induced in a conductor by a changing magnetic field will flow such that it will produce its own magnetic field which opposes the original change in the external magnetic field.
> 
> So, basically, when a conductor moves relative to a magnet, the current induced in that conductor tries to stop it from moving. The bigger the field change - because of a stronger field, or faster movement - the stronger the braking force due to Lenz's Law will be.
> 
> I've got a piece of aluminium tubing with a half-inch outside diameter and a 3/8th inch bore, which happens to just neatly fit the little disc magnets from the ForceField grab bags.
> 
> The tube's 157cm long. Drop these disc magnets, or pretty much anything else, from a height of 157cm and they'll take about 0.57 seconds to hit the ground, thanks to the 9.8 metres per second per second acceleration of gravity.
> 
> A couple of the discs stuck together (to stop them tumbling) and dropped down the tube, though, take almost exactly 30 seconds to emerge from the other end. Magnetic braking.


So, lessee big pile of aluminum hurtling through the air at better than 400knots. Hits a very large very powerfull magnetic field. Magnetic braking could be compared to increasing the viscosity of the air to that of water. (Big leap I know, but this is the way that it would feel like) Think that a jumbojet hitting the water would be able to stay in one piece? This could also account for the survivors, well, surviving. The plane would have fallen out of the sky at a much slower rate than 9.8m/s^2

-Peter


----------



## pallendo

Oh, and w00t, I got to start a page!!!


----------



## Delta13

hanumang said:


> I can't speak for Delta, but while I _really_ enjoyed this episode, "Walkabout" is still the best _Lost_ episode, in my book. It's what actually got me hooked on the show (I wasn't sold on it before that, honestly).
> 
> For those who don't remember titles like that, "Walkabout" was the first Locke episode.


You come pretty close to speaking for me. 

To make people feel better, the finale was probably in my Top 5 (like Fish Man, I don't actually keep a list). "Walkabout", "Do No Harm", "Greater Good", and even the lamented "Exodus Part 2" are high up there for me.


----------



## Delta13

Delta13 said:


> I'm betting the causative mood of "to die" is a pretty gloomy one.





MickeS said:


> Isn't that simply "die"? As in "Die, you bastard!"


I hate explaining puns, but here goes: I was riffing on the "causative *mood*" of "to die".

Nothing kills a joke like explaining, so ironically, this joke must also go "to die".


----------



## JMikeD

pallendo said:


> I read all 22 fricken pages and this was NEVER EVEN BROUGHT UP....
> 
> http://my.execpc.com/~rhoadley/magpipes.htm is a link to this type of experiment.
> http://www.dansdata.com/magnets.htm If you read down this second link you will find:
> 
> -Peter


Thanks for the links. Very interesting.


----------



## wprager

pallendo said:


> Oh, and w00t, I got to start a page!!!


Sorry, pal, but I'm assuming most of the _pros_ around here are going with 50 posts per page, so yours would be the 11th on the page.

I _do_ like your explanation, though. Personally, I've easily suspended my disbelief for that little plot point, but it's still bugging some people; perhaps this will finally stop _those_ comments.


----------



## wprager

wprager said:


> Sorry, pal, but I'm assuming most of the _pros_ around here are going with 50 posts per page, so yours would be the 11th on the page.
> 
> I _do_ like your explanation, though. Personally, I've easily suspended my disbelief for that little plot point, but it's still bugging some people; perhaps this will finally stop _those_ comments.


OMG, I did _not_ want to do that. Post #666 can't be good. Not good at all.


----------



## getreal

pallendo said:


> http://my.execpc.com/~rhoadley/magpipes.htm
> http://www.dansdata.com/magnets.htm
> 
> So, lessee big pile of aluminum hurtling through the air at better than 400knots. Hits a very large very powerfull magnetic field. Magnetic braking could be compared to increasing the viscosity of the air to that of water. (Big leap I know, but this is the way that it would feel like) Think that a jumbojet hitting the water would be able to stay in one piece? This could also account for the survivors, well, surviving. The plane would have fallen out of the sky at a much slower rate than 9.8m/s^2


Wow! Great contribution to the Lost speculation, pallendo!
Now, do we really think the writers are doing this sort of research and working it into their compelling scripts? If so, even more kudos to them!


----------



## pallendo

wprager said:


> Sorry, pal, but I'm assuming most of the _pros_ around here are going with 50 posts per page, so yours would be the 11th on the page.


Funny, I have changed that on every other forum I contribute to, except this one. I was beginning to think that THIS forum couldn't do that, but now that I know it could be done, I was able to find that setting. Some forums also will allow you to go to 100posts/page. Anything that speculates on LOST should allow that setting.

-Peter


----------



## JMikeD

wprager said:


> Sorry, pal, but I'm assuming most of the _pros_ around here are going with 50 posts per page, so yours would be the 11th on the page.
> 
> I _do_ like your explanation, though. Personally, I've easily suspended my disbelief for that little plot point, but it's still bugging some people; *perhaps this will finally stop those comments.*


It won't. The people here are made of sterner stuff. 

Lots of things don't scale well. That experiment may be one of them. I retain my skepticism, I am, after all, The Professional Skeptic(TM).


----------



## hefe

pallendo said:


> The plane would have fallen out of the sky at a much slower rate than 9.8m/s^2
> 
> -Peter


That formula is the rate of _acceleration_. Of course, from that high, you'd reach a terminal velocity well before hitting the ground, so a slower acceleration might still result in the same speed.

One thing never specifically mentioned is how the survivors fell. That is, did they fall inside the fuselage, or did any of them get sucked out of the plane, fall, and live?

Assuming they survived the mid-air breakup, the velocity of the plane is not relevant, it's the speed of the fall to earth. So I guess if the theory is that the plane parts fell to earth more slowly, then the survivors would be the ones inside. Anyone falling outside the plane will not be affected by the magnetism. (And I'm still not sure what effect it would have on an aliminum airframe, anyway.)

Of course, the episode that showed the tailies crashing made it look like it hit pretty hard...


----------



## JMikeD

Lost "action figures."

Just what we've been waiting for. 

http://www.thefutoncritic.com/pr.aspx?id=20060524abc01


----------



## murrays

pallendo said:


> So, lessee big pile of aluminum hurtling through the air at better than 400knots. Hits a very large very powerfull magnetic field. Magnetic braking could be compared to increasing the viscosity of the air to that of water. (Big leap I know, but this is the way that it would feel like) Think that a jumbojet hitting the water would be able to stay in one piece? This could also account for the survivors, well, surviving. The plane would have fallen out of the sky at a much slower rate than 9.8m/s^2


As mentioned, 9.8m/s^2 is acceleration, not velocity, but this got me thinking of another thing; wouldn't the magnetic field, and thus the "viscosity", increase the closer you got to the island thus slowing the parts of the plane as you got closer to the ground?

Interesting theory, anyway.

-murray


----------



## Delta13

hefe said:


> That formula is the rate of _acceleration_. Of course, from that high, you'd reach a terminal velocity well before hitting the ground, so a slower acceleration might still result in the same speed.
> 
> One thing never specifically mentioned is how the survivors fell. That is, did they fall inside the fuselage, or did any of them get sucked out of the plane, fall, and live?
> 
> Assuming they survived the mid-air breakup, the velocity of the plane is not relevant, it's the speed of the fall to earth. So I guess if the theory is that the plane parts fell to earth more slowly, then the survivors would be the ones inside. Anyone falling outside the plane will not be affected by the magnetism. (And I'm still not sure what effect it would have on an aliminum airframe, anyway.)
> 
> Of course, the episode that showed the tailies crashing made it look like it hit pretty hard...


Paraphrasing an old joke, it's not the acceleration that kills ya, but the sudden deacceleration. 

My feeling was always that some were outside, some inside. Jack seemed to wind up quite away from the fuselage (maybe Vincent too, hard to say), but most everyone else was right around the wreckage. We've seen the wreck through no one's flashback yet; my bet is they are saving that for the season opener or S3E2 next season.

We've seen the tail section hit, and I don't know that I would describe its descent as "slowed". We've seen some people fall out of the middle as the plane broke up, but we don't know whether they survived or not. Since skydiving at 40,000ft sans parachute virtually never works, I'm going to go with "not".

Kate says she remembers; Locke seems to wind up on the beach outside the plane, and he didn't walk there; they burned the plane because of the number of dead people inside of it. Bernard up in a tree, 2 people in seats wound up at the bottom of the pool. So far, no pattern emerges. But Jack far and away was the furthest from the plane, with Bernard a close (ha-ha) second. Maybe they fell.

But you've hit on something Hefe. We don't even know how the _tailies_ survived, fell, or rode out the crash.

Except one pattern: *Fate.* Possibly why they all wound up there, and why they survived.


----------



## Jeeters

hanumang said:


> I can't speak for Delta, but while I _really_ enjoyed this episode, "Walkabout" is still the best _Lost_ episode, in my book. It's what actually got me hooked on the show (I wasn't sold on it before that, honestly).


Agreed. "Walkabout" (well, actually its screenwriter, David Fury), was also nominated for an Emmy for outstanding writing for a drama series. It didn't win, though.


----------



## jimborst

My idea was the cockpit and the main fuselage stayed together until maybe hitting the ocean, that way the cockpit part and the fuselage (with the wings to slow it) would stay further back, and the cockpit would go a ways after the breakup. It would also keep the excessive wind speed from going through the cabin and breaking everyones necks (a problem on that TWA flight that crashed by NY). That would also explain how Jack (and Vincent) was further inland. Maybe this has been proven not to be the case but thought it might be possible.


----------



## pallendo

hefe said:


> That formula is the rate of _acceleration_. Of course, from that high, you'd reach a terminal velocity well before hitting the ground, so a slower acceleration might still result in the same speed.


Not really, the faster you go, the more magnetic braking you are getting, to terminal velocity would be much lower. In this case it all relates to relative speeds. You might start out accelerating down at 9.8m/s^2 for the first few feet, but as you fall faster and faster, the aluminum would be "magnetic braking" harder and harder. It's as if you are in a variable viscous fluid. The faster you try to go through it, the more viscous it gets.

-Peter


----------



## pallendo

Delta13 said:


> We've seen the tail section hit, and I don't know that I would describe its descent as "slowed". We've seen some people fall out of the middle as the plane broke up, but we don't know whether they survived or not. Since skydiving at 40,000ft sans parachute virtually never works, I'm going to go with "not".


Oooo, another one I want to take on! While we are speculating about timelines of all this...

Desmond and Kelvin are outside the hatch... Desmond accidentally smashes Kelvin's head on that crazy rock formation... Right as the timer is going off, Oceanic 815 is flying near the island, runs into enough of the magnetic field (Field falls off as a square of the distance, so the effect could ramp up pretty quick) and breaks up. It falls out of the sky. Field increases as you get closer to the source (halve the distance, square the power of the field) so the plane would actually be decelerating the close it got to the island, so it could have been falling a long long time. Desmond runs back to the hatch, enters the number, field goes away. Airplane is still falling, but now is accelerating at 9.8m/s^2. Gains enough velocity between the time that the field was "shut off" and the time that it hits the ground that it is moving pretty fast. Plane hits the dirt/water with enough force that it "looks" like it was going at terminal velocity, but in reality (As if there ever was any on this show) was moving at a slow enough rate to let loads of people survive.

-peter

p.s. Bernard in the chair. (While we are indulging ourselves in WAGs) The seat fell out of the plane at first breakup... Fell at a faster rate than the plane. But there was still enough non-ferrous material in the frame of the seat to slow it enough that he could land safely, probably before the field was "Shut down". He hasn't told us the story of what he remembers about the fall.


----------



## phox_mulder

I got one.
(just finished the finale last night, spent today catching up on the postings, and don't remember this being brought up)

Since when does a stick of dynamite (or two, Eko did take 2 with him) create a fireball?
Let alone a fireball big enough to fill the hatch, or at least travel down a long hallway.


phox


----------



## nedthelab

Yes this is TV and an entertaining show, as well as aggravating show, but think TWA 800 - plane falls apart you all lose - nothing more to be said - no magnets no nothing end of the day an end of story , cite all the physics you want-- but we have to suspend disbelief and wait for more non answers until the ratings begin to fall, my guess mid next season. Plus this show is Expensive $$$$$$ to produce, so if the ratings do begin to take a tail spin then.....


----------



## hefe

There was a lot of interesting info on the newly released Official Lost Podcast. Ill summarize the points for those of you who dont listen, and spoilerize the potentially spoilery parts. 

The discussion is by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse, Executive Producers of the show, and was recorded on Thursday, the day after the finale aired.


They started actually writing the finale about a month ago. The two hour show was shot in 17 days, by 2 crews simultaneously. Four editors worked on cutting the finale at the same time, and the special effects were done in an extremely short time. From end of script to final cut was 3 ½ weeks.

The ending scenes were also done in top secret. The monitoring station and the phone call were filmed with only essential crew, and that last scene was actually filmed 5 days before the episode was aired. Also, these scenes are the first time weve left the island in current time.

The ending scene. The actor is NOT Matthew Fox.

Clancy Brown was brought back to play Kelvin. He was previously known as Joe Inman in the first episode he was in. Although the name was never spoken on screen, they had to misdirect in the script so TV guide and other listings wouldnt know that his name was going to be revealed later as Kelvin. They basically did the same thing with Tom, who was initially known as Mr. Friendly because they referred to him that way in the scripts. Cartlon Cuse said that the character of Kelvins full name is Kelvin Joe Inman.

The four-toed statue. They joke about it a little, but dont really reveal anything about it. They speculate on the size of the statue. 30 feet? 60 feet? Where is the rest of the statue?




Spoiler



Dharma came to the island in the late 70s but who was there before them?






Spoiler



The electromagnetic anomaly that occurred allowed the island to be seen briefly. This happened one other time recently, on Sep 22, 2004 when the last system failure occurred.



*The airing of Lost next year*The producers hate reruns, and have lobbied for running in uninterrupted blocks. It will do so next year, starting in late Sep, they will air 6 straight episodes, with a mini cliffhanger, theyll be off for 12 weeks or so, and return for 17 straight episodes in Feb-May.

There wasnt more of the monster this season just because of the time and what they were able to get to storywise. But Lindeloff also teased us with thishe said


Spoiler



Theres a good chance that you guys saw the monster this year, but just didnt realize you were looking at the monster. By the end next year, youll understand what that means.



They were asked how far in advance they know about story elements, like at what point did they know what was in the hatch. They say the rule is that they dont introduce an element until they know how it resolves. When they introduced the hatch last season, they knew what was in it.

Why didnt Hurley attack Michael after learning he killed Libby? They admit to not doing that part well. They said the characters motivations when confronted with Michaels betrayal were not explained well enough. It was kind of a casualty of the circumstancesportions of the scene that were actually shot were left out, but in any case, they wish they had done that part a little better.

A few things we will learn about next season:


Spoiler



Why Jack, Kate, and Sawyer were chosen. Thats the crux of the first part of next season.
How Locke wound up in the wheelchair.
How Jack got his tattoos 
Kates marriage.
Season 3 will be more deeply about character relationships.
They also said somewhat coyly that they would be very disappointed if Desmond were dead.


----------



## pallendo

nedthelab said:


> Yes this is TV and an entertaining show, as well as aggravating show, but think TWA 800 - plane falls apart you all lose - nothing more to be said - no magnets no nothing end of the day an end of story , cite all the physics you want-- but we have to suspend disbelief and wait for more non answers until the ratings begin to fall, my guess mid next season. Plus this show is Expensive $$$$$$ to produce, so if the ratings do begin to take a tail spin then.....


In the context of the show, the airplane was crashed because of the "System failure".


----------



## Delta13

Nice wrapup post, Hefe. I didn't realize there was to be an after finale podcast. Cool. Gotta go get it.

Not that I haven't harped on it enough for the past couple of episodes, but - ahem! - [sounds of strings being plucked] ...

Hurley's part was badly done in both this and "3 Minutes", and I am glad that they have recognized some of that. His motivation for going was never explained, and when he finds out Michael is to blame his reaction is to just shrug and go home? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

We've already seen him thrash Sawyer over much less, so we know he is capable of it. He is not a violent person by nature, but at this point, losing Libby and having the guy responsible right in front in him and he does nothing? Even if they had had him beyotch-slap Michael that would have been something. 

Oh well. What's done is done. I'll take my harp and go home. One last thing before I go off to put on my asbestos underwear though ... 



Spoiler



I think the Hurleybird was another representation of the monster. Zero proof, but sounds goofy enough. A better candidate would be Vincent (Cerberus means a certain dog after all), but I don't think he was in this episode.


----------



## HoosierFan

And didn't Hurley say he was known as a "warrior" back home?


----------



## jubrand

rondotcom said:


> after the bright light-producing, ear piercing noise generating incident at the hatch, Charlie was asked about Locke and Eko. HE replied with "They're not back yet?" As if they were still out "searching" for NotHenry Gale. No one else seemed concerned about the incident, or even talked about
> 
> It's like since Desmond turned that key_* IT NEVER HAPPENED*_


Except that he mentioned the dynomite explosion to Claire as well, so he clearly remembers Locke and Eko after they were back from looking for NHG.


----------



## dolcevita

Anyone else catch the nod to Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid?

Michael: "Who _are _you people?"
Henry Gale: "We're the good guys"

I only caught it because that was the tag/theme for a series of corporate videos produced for a client a while back...


----------



## wprager

Shouldn't this one had been spoiler-tagged?


hefe said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> They basically did the same thing with Tom, who was initially known as Mr. Friendly because they referred to him that way in the scripts.





Spoiler



It would seem to indicate that the name "Tom" would have been a clue from earlier episodes. Checking Lostpedia, there are the well-known Tom/Thomases -- Claire's boyfriend, Thomas; Kate's childhood sweetheart, Tom; and AL picked the name "Tom" for Jack's father. However, none of these seem to fit Mr. Friendly. The only other reference is Charlie's heroin supplier, "Tommy". Is there another "Tom" that is not listed at Lostpedia?


----------



## hefe

wprager said:


> Shouldn't this one had been spoiler-tagged?


  No. There's nothing there that isn't known now. Bea called him Tom in the episode.


----------



## Bierboy

phox_mulder said:


> I got one...Since when does a stick of dynamite (or two, Eko did take 2 with him) create a fireball?Let alone a fireball big enough to fill the hatch, or at least travel down a long hallway.
> 
> phox


Smeek. (Post #550)


----------



## wprager

hefe said:


> No. There's nothing there that isn't known now. Bea called him Tom in the episode.


Yes, _that_ part was known from the episode. What _wasn't_ known was that


Spoiler



the producers felt it was important to not let the name "Tom" appear in the credits of previous episodes. If the credits had listed "Kelvin Inman" instead of "Joe Inman" in Sayid's backstory episode, then we surely would have deduced that this is the same Kelvin that was in the hatch with Desmond. Knowing that the producers intentionally used "Mr. Friendly" instead of "Tom" in the credits of Walt's abduction episode, would it not then stand to reason that, by using "Tom", they would have been giving something away?



Look, I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the spoiler police (I was done reading the first 5 pages (@50 posts/page) before I even watched the finale), but this one sounded very suspicious.


----------



## Fish Man

wprager said:


> Yes, _that_ part was known from the episode. What _wasn't_ known was that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> the producers felt it was important to not let the name "Tom" appear in the credits of previous episodes. If the credits had listed "Kelvin Inman" instead of "Joe Inman" in Sayid's backstory episode, then we surely would have deduced that this is the same Kelvin that was in the hatch with Desmond. Knowing that the producers intentionally used "Mr. Friendly" instead of "Tom" in the credits of Walt's abduction episode, would it not then stand to reason that, by using "Tom", they would have been giving something away?
> 
> 
> 
> Look, I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the spoiler police (I was done reading the first 5 pages (@50 posts/page) before I even watched the finale), but this one sounded very suspicious.


Hefe did not come anywhere near violating any spoiler rule.

He explained that "Tom" was previously credited as "Mr. Friendly" or "Bearded Man" in episodes prior to our learning his real name.

As of this episode, we know his name is "Tom." So, it does not violate any spoiler rules to mention his name "Tom", or to discuss why he was credited differently in previous episodes.


----------



## hefe

Fish Man said:


> Hefe did not come anywhere near violating any spoiler rule.
> 
> He explained that "Tom" was previously credited as "Mr. Friendly" or "Bearded Man" in episodes prior to our learning his real name.
> 
> As of this episode, we know his name is "Tom." So, it does not violate any spoiler rules to mention his name "Tom", or to discuss why he was credited differently in previous episodes.


Yes, and to clarify, since I see what the objection was now, the producers did NOT say that there was anything specific to learn about the name Tom. All they did was compare how the name "Joe Inman" made it to listings and message boards like the name "Mr. Friendly" did. It was because they used that name internally. They did not imply or discuss that there was anything specific to the name Tom in their discussion.

I used the name Tom when referring to him only because that's how we know him now.


----------



## PhantomDilbert

What i love most is that it's been 4 days since the episode and ther are 23 pages or 691 posts related to this topic =).

Oh, it was a very good season finale too =)


----------



## wprager

hefe said:


> Yes, and to clarify, since I see what the objection was now, the producers did NOT say that there was anything specific to learn about the name Tom. All they did was compare how the name "Joe Inman" made it to listings and message boards like the name "Mr. Friendly" did. It was because they used that name internally. They did not imply or discuss that there was anything specific to the name Tom in their discussion.
> 
> I used the name Tom when referring to him only because that's how we know him now.


I'll probably sound defensive for saying this, but I really was not objecting. I started by saying "Shouldn't this one had been ..." (oops on the grammar) rather than "Hey this one should have been ..." -- I was a question, which is a step or two ahead of accusation.

And now, for something a little more on-topic. When "Gale" says "We're the good guys" that confirmed for me that there are two groups of others. The real primitives and the fake ones.

I think it's been made fairly clear that "Gale", Tom and their group are part of the Dharma Initiative. Kelvin (also from Dharma) referred to the "Hostiles". He would not have been talking about the fake primitives (unless this experiment is even more complicated than this board has yet to imagine), so he must have been talking about some group that is out to disrupt the experiment(s).

When "Gale" said that they were the _good guys_ I think he was merely stating (truthfully or not) that they were not the _hostiles_.


----------



## Delta13

The most interesting thing to me about the "fake beards" is that it only appears that Tom/Mr. Friendly (can I just call you Tom?  ) wears one. The other guys have stubble, or very short beards. He's also the only one who complains and takes his fake beard off.

Makes you wonder if him and Fake Henry have to travel off-island, or meet people, and so don't grow real beards.

Given Kelvin's background in military operations, generally anybody not directly known to be on your side in a hostile environment is considered a "hostile". They may or may not be hostile, so that alone doesn't prove much at this point. In military operations you treat them as hostile. Kelvin may have just considered that everyone outside the hatch was a "hostile", Dharma or not.

Especially since he knew they were being watched and observed. His attitude towards Dharma did not sound like he was up for Employee of the Year.


----------



## mojomom

I wrote this for my blog on MojoMom.com but wanted to get some Lost fan feedback as well. (Hey, the theories aren't always about the end of the world and esoteric philosophies!)

I woke up this morning thinking about the "Lost" and realized that button-pushing characters Locke and Eko may have been the ultimate stay-at-home Dads. On the show, the two men spent weeks entering the code numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42 into a computer every 108 minutes, then pushing the enter key to reset the 108 minute counter. Locke and Eko were button-pushing true believers, thinking their work was incredibly important, until Locke lost faith that the relentless task of minding the button was having any real effect. It was a crazy-making job for one person to handle, as you coudn't leave the hatch unattended for more than an hour and 48 minutes at a time, day and night. The previous hatch-minder Desmond, after living in isolation for 3 years, was about to kill himself when he heard Locke banging on the outside, giving Desmond hope that relief was on the way.

This week we found out what happened when the button doesn't get pushed: alarms sounded, hell broke loose, and the whole hatch was destroyed when electromagnetic forces were unleashed. Desmond managed to activate a fail-safe mechanism that released the energy through some kind of exposion, possibly saving the world, if not the hatch inhabitants.

I had to laugh when I thought about how much this was actually like being the parent of a new baby. You have to tend to the baby day and night. If you are lucky, she will sleep for 108 minutes at a time. Her wail alarm goes off until you "push the button" through feeding, cuddling, or changing diapers. Parents can feel extremely isolated, especially new parents who are home alone, and it's easy to wonder on a day to day basis whether what we are doing is really important, but in the long run, yes, raising happy, healthy children is a gift to the world. We rarely think of it in these terms, but the world would literally be devoid of human life within a century if we didn't do this work.

And if the "Lost" castaways had shared the faith that this work was important, and all contributed effort to keep the button-pushing station occupied, no one would have had to go crazy to get this relatively simple, vital task done.


----------



## TomK

I just finished watching the finale and I am not going to read this entire thread. There are waaaay too many posts to read them. I still don't understand why Penelope was looking for magnetic anomalies from some cold weather base but I'm sure we'll finally understand why next year.

Any bets on Desmond still being alive? It would be a shame otherwise for Penelope to find the island and to find out Desmond died. 

It's sort of weird to have a major part of the finale given to Desmond and Penelope (whom we had never seen before). Are we supposed to believe they'll be a major part of next season?


----------



## phox_mulder

Penelope knew Desmond was in the sailboat race.

She knew he was lost during the race.

The monitoring station is most likely part of her fathers many businesses, and they recorded an anomoly around the time that Desmond disapeared, so she put two and two together and figured it had something to do with his disapearance, so has been keeping tabs ever since.
Consensus is that the south pole is the best place to record fluctuations in the Earth's magnetic field,
the two techs were speaking Portugese, the language of Brazil, which is relatively close to Antartica.

The 2 techs at the station implied they missed the last one (when the plane crashed)
but plotted the origination of the latest one.

Yes, she will be a major character next season,
so there is reason to believe that Desmond is still among the living.

I read the whole thing on Friday after watching the finale late Thursday.  

Oh, the number shown on the screen in the monitoring station, 7418880,
just happens to be the "Lost numbers" multiplied.

4 x 8 x 15 x 16 x 23 x 42 = 7418880


phox


----------



## spartanstew

mojomom said:


> I woke up this morning thinking about the "Lost" and realized that button-pushing characters Locke and Eko may have been the ultimate stay-at-home Dads. On the show, the two men spent weeks entering the code numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42 into a computer every 108 minutes, then pushing the enter key to reset the 108 minute counter.


Incorrect. Locke (and others) spent many weeks entering the numbers, but Eko just recently started.


----------



## phox_mulder

Speaking of the numbers.

Now that we have some more, I played around on Google Earth a little.

Plug this in and see where it takes you:

48°15'16.23" S 42°7'41.8880" E

It took some trial and error, but they are still in order:
4 8 15 16 23 42 7418880

You might have to zoom out a little too see what I saw,
so it's not an exact LAT/LON reading, but with the islands magnetic problems, close enough.

I'll let someone else play with the compass headings and such, I've already taxed the brain matter enough.


phox


----------



## Rosincrans

MickeS said:


> that ridiculous fireball-explotion in the hatch when the dynamite exploded. Were the floors filled with gasoline?  I don't understand why movies and TV shows keep doing these fireball explosions when no material is around that could conceivably cause such a reaction.


It's just cheaper (and safer) to use a generic CG fireball. Sometimes you just have to blow up a model to make it look real.


----------



## hefe

phox_mulder said:


> Consensus is that the south pole is the best place to record fluctuations in the Earth's magnetic field,
> the two techs were speaking Portugese, the language of Brazil, which is relatively close to Antartica.


Well.....
I'm not sure there is such a consensus...plus, the closest any parts of Brazil and Antarctica come to each other is still over 2,000 miles.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

TomK said:


> I just finished watching the finale and I am not going to read this entire thread. Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah.


----------



## TomK

Fool Me Twice said:


>


Well said.


----------



## wprager

I don't think this was ever brought up (yeah, like you'd never heard _that_ before). When they found the fake beard at The Staff I immediately thought that it was way too short to be the one Mr. Friendly wore. However nobody else brough this up, so I figured it was just me.

Then very recently I was looking up "Tom" on Lostpeida, and they had side-by-side photos of Mr. Friendly with the beard, and the fake beard being examined by Kate (I believe). There's just no way that the two are the same -- Mr. Friendly's is much, much longer (looks like Castro).


Take a look for yourself.


----------



## phox_mulder

hefe said:


> Well.....
> I'm not sure there is such a consensus...plus, the closest any parts of Brazil and Antarctica come to each other is still over 2,000 miles.


The consensus I was speaking of is the opinion on this and many other Lost discussion boards.

No scientific thought implied.

phox


----------



## stellie93

wprager said:


> I don't think this was ever brought up (yeah, like you'd never heard _that_ before). When they found the fake beard at The Staff I immediately thought that it was way too short to be the one Mr. Friendly wore. However nobody else brough this up, so I figured it was just me.
> 
> Then very recently I was looking up "Tom" on Lostpeida, and they had side-by-side photos of Mr. Friendly with the beard, and the fake beard being examined by Kate (I believe). There's just no way that the two are the same -- Mr. Friendly's is much, much longer (looks like Castro).
> 
> 
> Take a look for yourself.


I thought the same thing when I saw that beard, but when I mentioned it at work no one agreed with me. I still thought when they pulled on Tom's beard it wouldn't come off! Wrong again.


----------



## omelet1978

Anyone else think that Desmond reminds you of Groudskeeper Willy from the Simpsons???


----------



## Delta13

TomK said:


> Any bets on Desmond still being alive? It would be a shame otherwise for Penelope to find the island and to find out Desmond died.
> 
> It's sort of weird to have a major part of the finale given to Desmond and Penelope (whom we had never seen before). Are we supposed to believe they'll be a major part of next season?


I think that Desmond and Penelope will play major roles next year, and that Desmond will do it from this side of the grave.

Desmond is the first character we know of who has an active major love interest somewhere else in the world. Just for ratings' sake, the love interest must stay alive.

What about Sayid? He was the only one with a serious love interest outside the island, though we don't know if it was reciprocated or not. The problem is, they watered down that storyline with the Sayid/Shannon love interest, so it is almost dead on the vine right now.

So Desmond-Penelope must stay an active plotline. Done right it will help with ratings AND the plotline.


----------



## getreal

wprager said:


> ... When they found the fake beard at The Staff I immediately thought that it was way too short to be the one Mr. Friendly wore.... There's just no way that the two are the same -- Mr. Friendly's is much, much longer (looks like Castro).


With all the electronic and medical equipment and hatches and food supplies, why would you think there would be only one fake beard?


----------



## jkeegan

stalemate said:


> I didn't take it that way AT ALL. The line doesn't "come from" a real-life hero. "Let's Roll" had been used long before Flight 93 and I don't think it should be removed from our lexicon just because it was used by someone on Flight 93. He did not coin the phrase.


For the record, if I ever die in a plane crash, please _continue_ to use the phrase "taking the juice for free".


----------



## jkeegan

Wow.. Missed my 1000th post.. it must have been somewhere in this thread.

Go away camping for a few days, come back, and you're behind by _ten pages_ of posts (at the maximum posts-per-page setting). Agh!


----------



## wprager

getreal said:


> With all the electronic and medical equipment and hatches and food supplies, why would you think there would be only one fake beard?


I think the _intention_ was for us to think that the losties are assuming this is Mr. Friendly's beard. The fact that it looks so different (remember, we have the benefit of being able to see those two pictures side by side; the losties do not) may be important.

It was recently mentioend on this board that Tom appeared to be the only one of the Others with a fake beard. We have not seen anyone else wearing a fake beard, so I can only assume that this is what we are expected to believel; or at least expected to belive the losties believing. Was that grammar right?


----------



## jkeegan

Fish Man said:


> I've mentioned this in a previous post, but here is my interpretation FWIW:
> 
> The hatch was originally built to "harness" a naturally occurring electromagnetic phenomenon in some way.
> 
> This attempt to harness the electromagnetic effect had some defect or unintended side-effects (the "incident").
> 
> The "button pressing" averted the undesirable "side effect" of the EM harnessing equipment. This side effect, if left unchecked, led to some catastrophic, perhaps world-wide, result.
> 
> "Turning the key" destroyed the harnessing equipment and shut down the system in a semi-controlled but still somewhat violent way. The result of "turning the key" was less catastrophic than failing to push the button, but destroyed the equipment, letting the naturally occurring EM phenomenon return to it's natural state.


Agreed, that was my thought as well.


----------



## jkeegan

jking said:


> I'm confused by the fact that last season Walt's message was 'don't push the button, the button is bad', but this season Eko's brother told Eko that the work in the hatch was very important, and we all just witnessed what happens when you don't push the button, making it seem like pushing the button was the right thing to do.


{brainstorming-throw-anything-out-without-thinking-about-it-mode}
Maybe the writers will eventually borrow literally from Hurley's comic book that Walt was reading, and have there be a trapped intelligent peaceful lifeform/alien/whatever being held on the island, being watched by Dharma.. Maybe that's what the anti-dharma faction of dharma (others) are upset about - the testing of an intelligent life that they've communicated with via remote viewing? Maybe the "naturally occuring electromagnetic anomaly in this area" isn't naturally occurring at all, but it's from this creature (or his ship or whatever) and they're trying to cloak it etc - or maybe the eletromagnetic strangeness eminates from the life itself.. Maybe turning the key kills the creature, thus ending the need to push the button. Maybe the black smoke was an extension of that creature?
{/brainstorming-throw-anything-out-without-thinking-about-it-mode}


----------



## jkeegan

paulstefano said:


> It's possible that the injections Charlie gave Claire have made her see him as a friend again. Remember, in her flashbacks, Ethan was constantly giving her injections, and she was perfectly happy being held against her will.
> 
> This would backup the theory that Charlie is working for Dharma or the Others.


... but it certainly wouldn't necessitate it.. Charlie could be completely ignorant of what the vaccine does, but figured that it must be important since it was part of supplies for Dharma people.

Maybe the writers were just showing us what happens when you take the drug (if Claire really did take it): you become more accepting of ideas and do what you're told (such as pushing the button, or writing in a notebook, or kissing Charlie).

I'm sure somewhere someone is now starting a new post for alt.sex.stories about Losties being controlled via vaccine.


----------



## jkeegan

cherry ghost said:


> Funny how Libby dies right before Desmond comes back. Would they have recognized each other?


... just like the stewardess (I forget her name now) disappeared just before the taileys made it across the island, where Locke was. At the time, we thought she was the only one who happened to know Locke was in a wheelchair.. (turns out we were wrong! Rose...)

The writers seem to do that trick from time to time. If I were an actor on the show I'd hope they didn't realize at the last second that my character knew something interesting, lest they kill him off!


----------



## jkeegan

RunnerFL said:


> What if Elizabeth is the one that was hospitalized and Libby was not?
> 
> I'm just trying to maybe tie something to "Bad Twin" meaning Elizabeth would be the bad twin...


Now I'm thinking back to that episode of The Incredible Hulk where there was a woman having hallucinations about her twin sister that died when they were children.. I think one of the girls was named Betsy.. (another name for Elizabeth).

edit: Nope.. Did some digging, and the girls names were Renee and Becky. Doh. Never mind.


----------



## MickeS

Delta13 said:


> I hate explaining puns, but here goes: I was riffing on the "causative *mood*" of "to die".
> 
> Nothing kills a joke like explaining, so ironically, this joke must also go "to die".


D'oh!


----------



## jkeegan

smak said:


> Has anybody tried to try to figure out the differences between Hurley and Jack/Sawyer/Kate that would explain Hurley being allowed to go back, but not the other three?


Maybe it's something we can't figure out yet but that they'll just introduce in a later story.. The example that came to mind was if they wanted Hurley for a different experiment than the other three, and that he couldn't know he was in one - so they tell him they're letting him go. He walks back, finds some people or a hatch or something, and thinks he found them/it on his own, by accident.

I did want to go back to the earlier threads to see what we'd recorded about what eye each of them started out their first episodes with....

(yep.. three improper ellipsi.  )


----------



## jkeegan

Church AV Guy said:


> Well, after over 500 posts, here are a few thoughts.
> 
> 1) Over the last few weeks/months people have complained about the expression "push the button" as being not descriptive, but Candle uses it in the orientation film, so Kelvin used it, Desmond used it, it was just natural for Locke to use it, and for people on this board to use it too.


Does he? (Does Candle use it in the orientation film?).. I thought he said you must "enter the code"... that's just from memory, not 100% sure he doesn't mention the word button - but my guess is that he doesn't.

Other than that, doesn't matter much to me - it's a name for the task they're doing.



> 2) The producers are on record as definitively stating that _{stuff censored}_...


That kind of stuff should be spoilerized, I think.


----------



## MickeS

jkeegan said:


> Church AV Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2) The producers are on record as definitively stating that {stuff censored}...
> 
> 
> 
> That kind of stuff should be spoilerized, I think.
Click to expand...

Huh? Why should something that was already shown be spoilerized?


----------



## jlb

.....was listening to my iPod over the weekend and on came Steve Miller's Jungle Love. Great tune. But listening closely made me wonder if JJ and the gang are big Steve Miller fans......

Many of the lyrics match themes from the show.......

(I have used bold for certain interesting lyrics. And, I am sure this is nothing, but I found it interesting nonetheless).:



> *I met you on somebody's island
> You thought you had known me before *
> I brought you a crate of papaya
> *They waited all night by your door
> You probably wouldn't remember
> I probably couldn't forget*
> Jungle love in the surf in the pouring rain
> Everything's better when wet
> 
> *Jungle love it's drivin' me mad
> It's makin' me crazy
> Jungle love it's drivin' me mad
> It's makin' me crazy *
> 
> *But lately you live in the jungle
> I never see you alone
> But we need some definite answers *
> So I thought I would write you a poem
> *The question to everyone's answer
> Is usually asked from within *
> But the patterns of the rain
> And *the truth they contain
> Have written my life on your skin *
> 
> *Jungle love it's drivin' me mad
> It's makin' me crazy
> Jungle love it's drivin' me mad
> It's makin' me crazy *
> 
> *You treat me like I was your ocean
> You swim in my blood when it's warm
> My cycles of circular motion
> Protect you and keep you from harm *
> *You live in a world of illusion  *
> Where everything's peaches and cream
> *We all face a scarlet conclusion
> But we spend our time in a dream *
> 
> *Jungle love it's drivin' me mad
> It's makin' me crazy
> Jungle love it's drivin' me mad
> It's makin' me crazy
> 
> Jungle love it's drivin' me mad
> It's makin' me crazy
> Jungle love it's drivin' me mad
> It's makin' me crazy*


----------



## hefe

jlb said:


> .....was listening to my iPod over the weekend and on came Steve Miller's Jungle Love. Great tune. But listening closely made me wonder if JJ and the gang are big Steve Miller fans......
> 
> Many of the lyrics match themes from the show.......
> 
> (I have used bold for certain interesting lyrics. And, I am sure this is nothing, but I found it interesting nonetheless).:


And _that _ is testament to the greatness of this show...

It has permeated your (and our) brain to an unprecedented level.


----------



## bcrider

Wow! I was in Mexico when this aired and just got to watch it a few nights ago. Great episode, will definitely save this one (HD on the Time Warner box - looking forward to replacing it with the Dual Tuner HD TiVo though) to watch again at least one more time. I didn't even catch the HensoCareers.com commercial until replaying the ending a 3rd time... teaches me to fast-forward EVERYTHING


----------



## TAsunder

Why do people assume that one must experience a traumatic event in order to have a bout of severe depression? I don't think this is true at all. Libby could have just cracked for no reason.


----------



## hefe

TAsunder said:


> Why do people assume that one must experience a traumatic event in order to have a bout of severe depression? I don't think this is true at all. Libby could have just cracked for no reason.


You are right, but in a story like this, things don't just happen like in real life, they are invented by the writers. And usually to serve the story and the drama that they are creating.

So while it is certainly possible, I think it is more likely that there is a plot-relevant reason for whatever happened.


----------



## bcrider

First off, I did a search on Elizabeth and dart before submitting this so apologies if this was already stated (WAY too many posts to read them all), but here's something I have a question about:

About 7 seconds or so before Sawyer gets a dart to the neck, I heard the mysterious whisper of the name "Elizabeth", later "Elizabeth? Wendell?" (not sure about the Wendell part, may have been Widmore)?

Anyone else hear this or know what the second word/name was? I turned on closed captioning but of course that didn't reveal anything...


----------



## TAsunder

hefe said:


> You are right, but in a story like this, things don't just happen like in real life, they are invented by the writers. And usually to serve the story and the drama that they are creating.
> 
> So while it is certainly possible, I think it is more likely that there is a plot-relevant reason for whatever happened.


Good point. Plus we know that hurley was in there because of a "traumatic event".


----------



## NoThru22

getreal said:


> With all the electronic and medical equipment and hatches and food supplies, why would you think there would be only one fake beard?


Because in the same box they also showed us that hat that Tom was wearing when we first saw him during last year's finale. From the horrible, horrific job they did of matching Tom up with his flashback in the second to last episode, I would venture to say the makeup department on this show just doesn't give a rat's ass if it's similar or not. The story says it is.


----------



## NoThru22

See, now this has me all riled up over how terrible the make-up was in that episode. These pictures come from the same "scene" that interwove footage from a previous episode in. You'd think the makeup people would at least use the previous episode as a reference, but it's not even close. The beard is longer, a different color, and the actor is clean before and after, but his face is filthy during the middle.

Before









Middle









After









I found it hilarious when people came up with conspiracy theories about the missing footage from the Swan orientation found in the arrow hatch because Dr. Candle looked different and the grain looked different. They just didn't care enough to match it up! (I am not trying to insult the show. I love the show. I feel it has brilliant writing and acting. Make-up: not so much.)


----------



## DLiquid

NoThru22 said:


> See, now this has me all riled up over how terrible the make-up was in that episode. These pictures come from the same "scene" that interwove footage from a previous episode in. You'd think the makeup people would at least use the previous episode as a reference, but it's not even close. The beard is longer, a different color, and the actor is clean before and after, but his face is filthy during the middle.


Yeah, this was so obvious that I was annoyed during the show. If they knew they were going to splice in past footage of the "light 'em up" scene then they should have tried to match him better than that.


----------



## getreal

wprager said:


> It was recently mentioend on this board that Tom appeared to be the only one of the Others with a fake beard. We have not seen anyone else wearing a fake beard...


I think Bea also had fake boobs, but they weren't in the theatrical make-up kit in the medical hatch.


----------



## getreal

jkeegan said:


> For the record, if I ever die in a plane crash, please _continue_ to use the phrase "taking the juice for free".


ROFLMAO!!
That was great! Thanks Jeff. Your brother is really talented. Also loved the Seinfeld script. LOL!!

I agree that a phrase like "let's roll" is not copyrightable when used in simple conversation.

_Remember the Alamo._


----------



## JMikeD

NoThru22 said:


> Because in the same box they also showed us that hat that Tom was wearing when we first saw him during last year's finale. From the horrible, horrific job they did of matching Tom up with his flashback in the second to last episode, I would venture to say the makeup department on this show just doesn't give a rat's ass if it's similar or not. The story says it is.


Since many of these episodes get to the transmission facility only hours before they are aired, you might want to cut the people that work on it a bit of slack. They work long hours to try and get all this stuff right but it's a difficult task, given the short lead times.

The producers commented on the ABC podcast that for the 2 hour season finale, they had four weeks to write the script, film it, edit it, put in the special effects, and get it in shape to transmit. I think they deserve praise, not a slam.


----------



## Jeeters

NoThru22 said:


> The beard is longer, a different color.


Didn't Kate take the beard she found? If so, he alternative choices might have been limited.


----------



## mqpickles

mojomom said:


> I wrote this for my blog on MojoMom.com but wanted to get some Lost fan feedback as well. (Hey, the theories aren't always about the end of the world and esoteric philosophies!)
> 
> I woke up this morning thinking about the "Lost" and realized that button-pushing characters Locke and Eko may have been the ultimate stay-at-home Dads. On the show, the two men spent weeks entering the code numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42 into a computer every 108 minutes, then pushing the enter key to reset the 108 minute counter. Locke and Eko were button-pushing true believers, thinking their work was incredibly important, until Locke lost faith that the relentless task of minding the button was having any real effect. It was a crazy-making job for one person to handle, as you coudn't leave the hatch unattended for more than an hour and 48 minutes at a time, day and night. The previous hatch-minder Desmond, after living in isolation for 3 years, was about to kill himself when he heard Locke banging on the outside, giving Desmond hope that relief was on the way.
> 
> This week we found out what happened when the button doesn't get pushed: alarms sounded, hell broke loose, and the whole hatch was destroyed when electromagnetic forces were unleashed. Desmond managed to activate a fail-safe mechanism that released the energy through some kind of exposion, possibly saving the world, if not the hatch inhabitants.
> 
> I had to laugh when I thought about how much this was actually like being the parent of a new baby. You have to tend to the baby day and night. If you are lucky, she will sleep for 108 minutes at a time. Her wail alarm goes off until you "push the button" through feeding, cuddling, or changing diapers. Parents can feel extremely isolated, especially new parents who are home alone, and it's easy to wonder on a day to day basis whether what we are doing is really important, but in the long run, yes, raising happy, healthy children is a gift to the world. We rarely think of it in these terms, but the world would literally be devoid of human life within a century if we didn't do this work.
> 
> And if the "Lost" castaways had shared the faith that this work was important, and all contributed effort to keep the button-pushing station occupied, no one would have had to go crazy to get this relatively simple, vital task done.


We had our first baby shortly before season 2 started. Believe me, the similarities to pushing the button every 108 minutes are very real, and I have thought about it throughout the season (although I don't think the producers intended a metaphor for parenting a newborn). If only there was a set code that you knew would work every time with a new baby.


----------



## getreal

mqpickles said:


> We had our first baby shortly before season 2 started. Believe me, the similarities to pushing the button every 108 minutes are very real ...


And, with babies, if there is a "system failure' and you don't manage to "push the button" within 108 minutes, things start to shake and objects begin flying through the air.

LOL!

Great analogy/metaphor.


----------



## TAsunder

The baby analogy is kind of silly, because babies grow up and also adapt and learn. Plus if you are only paying attention to a baby every 108 minutes you are probably not the greatest parent in the world.


----------



## NoThru22

Jeeters said:


> Didn't Kate take the beard she found? If so, he alternative choices might have been limited.


Kate took his beard before he walked out in the clearing and then gave it back when he walked back? All while tied up? Amazing!

The make-up artists don't deserve praise, they deserve to be fired. If they had different props, okay, but the fact that he's totally clean and then filthy and then totally clean is ridiculous.


----------



## phox_mulder

NoThru22 said:


> Kate took his beard before he walked out in the clearing and then gave it back when he walked back? All while tied up? Amazing!


No, back when she found it in the other hatch.

I don't remember her taking it though, just picking it up and looking at it.

phox


----------



## dswallow

JMikeD said:


> The producers commented on the ABC podcast that for the 2 hour season finale, they had four weeks to write the script, film it, edit it, put in the special effects, and get it in shape to transmit. I think they deserve praise, not a slam.


They chose the schedule. It's not like they had no idea there was going to have to be a season finale.


----------



## mqpickles

dswallow said:


> They chose the schedule. It's not like they had no idea there was going to have to be a season finale.


The producers and maybe writers chose the schedule; the make-up people didn't.


----------



## mqpickles

TAsunder said:


> The baby analogy is kind of silly, because babies grow up and also adapt and learn. Plus if you are only paying attention to a baby every 108 minutes you are probably not the greatest parent in the world.


You're missing the point. Of course, parenting a new baby is not exactly the same as repeatedly entering the same series of numbers in a computer on a set schedule, but the jobs have similarities, as Mojomom described: never being off duty, feeling isolated, and so on.

The main thing for me was that watching the show, I could really relate to how a person could feel like they're going crazy in a short time if they are on call 24/7, and never have a break longer than about 2 hours.


----------



## jkeegan

four random unpolished thoughts at 5:30 in the morning:

Imagine the writers saying "let's have the very first person to "get sick" be Charlie, because people will suspect that his strange behavior is related to drug use, and will hide it for a while.

Then, maybe Michael - have his blinding obsession for his son mask his sickness too.

We should make sure to foreshadow all of this by having Danielle say very early on that people should be watched very closely.


-----

Maybe the others picked Jack/Kate/Sawyer because they were all not infected (or because they all *were* infected).. Maybe they're studying the disease and they want a fresh group of subjects that all seem immune (or infected). Maybe they want new people from off the island because they may contain new antibodies that people on the island haven't been exposed to yet.

-----

Wouldn't it be cool if the "vaccine" is the infection, but the others didn't know that.. They capture the "good" people to save with the vaccine, all of them are infected and made worse, and then the only ones left on the island to save the day are the characters deemed not worthy of the vaccine, which therefore had some personality/ethical/moral problems, and now they have to overcome their problems to be selfless enough to help the others/infectedpeople/island/world.

-----

Going to the satellite theory, what if Penny's guys there in the cold observation area detected the electromagnetic anomaly, then looked up where the 108-minute satellite was right about then, and that's how they know "where it is"?
The satellite theory is also bolstered now by:
A) Knowing there's actually an outside world, so there's a chance the losties are actually in that world, and could have a satellite pass over.
B) The idea that the key was a "backup system" - i.e. damn, the frigging satellite passed by - what the hell do we do now??? well, worst case - tear the whole thing down.

(note to self: you're now at the top of page 16 out of 19)


----------



## Lee L

jkeegan said:


> Wouldn't it be cool if the "vaccine" is the infection, but the others didn't know that.. They capture the "good" people to save with the vaccine, all of them are infected and made worse, and then the only ones left on the island to save the day are the characters deemed not worthy of the vaccine, which therefore had some personality/ethical/moral problems, and now they have to overcome their problems to be selfless enough to help the others/infectedpeople/island/world.


Well, we do know from the screenshots posted of the flourescent map that


Spoiler



one of the lines says, "The cure is worse than the disease" so something like that could be happening.


----------



## drew2k

About "The Beard": 

Everyone is assuming that the Beard Kate found belongs to Tom, but there is nothing to support that. It could belong to _any_ of the Others. 
The Beard was left behind. This means the Wearer of the Beard either chose to go without wearing the Beard or had Other Beards at Other locations, or had to scramble to find an alternate Beard to replace the one left behind. (See Jeeter's earlier post.) 
If there are multiple Beards, who says they have to be identical? If you believe it was indeed Tom's Beard left behind in the locker, maybe Tom borrowed a Beard from Dick (who stayed home for the Season Finale). 
The Beard is a prop used by the Others. Do you think the Others have a Props Master or Continuity Master to ensure Tom's scruff is exactly the same from one foray into the jungle to the next? Or that Dick's "costume" is smudged just like the last time? What? The Others don't have a Props Master? Well there's the problem! Don't blame Lost, blame this little theatrical group of Others!


----------



## TAsunder

mqpickles said:


> You're missing the point. Of course, parenting a new baby is not exactly the same as repeatedly entering the same series of numbers in a computer on a set schedule, but the jobs have similarities, as Mojomom described: never being off duty, feeling isolated, and so on.
> 
> The main thing for me was that watching the show, I could really relate to how a person could feel like they're going crazy in a short time if they are on call 24/7, and never have a break longer than about 2 hours.


My point is that it's not really much of a point, because being a parent is a lot more random and dynamic than pushing the button, and because there is some relief in sight as well as at random intervals. A better analogy is someone who is on the bottom of the transplant list that has to do kidney dialysis every 2 hours. The button is a lot more tormenting than a baby, because even after 2 years you still have to keep pushing it, and you literally can never sleep. This is of course referring to desmond's button pushing experience. The losties can take shifts.


----------



## jradford

NoThru22 said:


> Kate took his beard before he walked out in the clearing and then gave it back when he walked back? All while tied up? Amazing!
> 
> The make-up artists don't deserve praise, they deserve to be fired. If they had different props, okay, but the fact that he's totally clean and then filthy and then totally clean is ridiculous.


I think the poster was referring to the beard Kate found in the medical hatch. I'm in the camp that sees absolutely nothing illogical about the possibility of more than a few beards to choose from.


----------



## kdelande

Jesus, don't take the baby analogy so literally. As a parent, it was a fairly good one for some *humor*.

KD


----------



## thenightfly42

rondotcom said:


> after the bright light-producing, ear piercing noise generating incident at the hatch, Charlie was asked about Locke and Eko. HE replied with "They're not back yet?" As if they were still out "searching" for NotHenry Gale. No one else seemed concerned about the incident, or even talked about
> 
> It's like since Desmond turned that key_* IT NEVER HAPPENED*_


The part you are remembering is


> [We see people cleaning up the food "pantry" at the beach. Charlie arrives out of the jungle.]
> 
> BERNARD: Charlie, are you okay?
> 
> CHARLIE: It's hard to tell exactly. But, my ears, you know?
> 
> BERNARD: Where's Locke -- Eko?
> 
> CHARLIE: They're not back yet?


...however, that was followed up by...


> CLAIRE: What happened out there, Charlie?
> 
> CHARLIE: You want to hear the part about me nearly being killed by the flaming fireball -- or the flying fork?
> 
> CLAIRE: I want you to be serious.
> 
> CHARLIE: Nothing happened.
> 
> CLAIRE: Well, something happened. I mean that noise, and the sky turned that weird violet color.
> 
> CHARLIE: Did it?


...which says that Charlie is being deliberately obtuse -- he remembers the forks and fireball, and is being coy about the rest of it.


----------



## thenightfly42

wprager said:


> I'll probably sound defensive for saying this, but I really was not objecting. I started by saying "Shouldn't this one had been ..." (oops on the grammar) rather than "Hey this one should have been ..." -- I was a question, which is a step or two ahead of accusation.
> 
> And now, for something a little more on-topic. When "Gale" says "We're the good guys" that confirmed for me that there are two groups of others. The real primitives and the fake ones.
> 
> I think it's been made fairly clear that "Gale", Tom and their group are part of the Dharma Initiative. Kelvin (also from Dharma) referred to the "Hostiles". He would not have been talking about the fake primitives (unless this experiment is even more complicated than this board has yet to imagine), so he must have been talking about some group that is out to disrupt the experiment(s).
> 
> When "Gale" said that they were the _good guys_ I think he was merely stating (truthfully or not) that they were not the _hostiles_.


Not necessarily. There don't have to be bad guys for there to be good guys. I think Gale was saying "We're doing the right thing out here, no matter what it looks like to you. Stop fighting with us."


----------



## Fish Man

drew2k said:


> About "The Beard":
> 
> Everyone is assuming that the Beard Kate found belongs to Tom, but there is nothing to support that. It could belong to _any_ of the Others.
> The Beard was left behind. This means the Wearer of the Beard either chose to go without wearing the Beard or had Other Beards at Other locations, or had to scramble to find an alternate Beard to replace the one left behind. (See Jeeter's earlier post.)
> If there are multiple Beards, who says they have to be identical? If you believe it was indeed Tom's Beard left behind in the locker, maybe Tom borrowed a Beard from Dick (who stayed home for the Season Finale).
> The Beard is a prop used by the Others. Do you think the Others have a Props Master or Continuity Master to ensure Tom's scruff is exactly the same from one foray into the jungle to the next? Or that Dick's "costume" is smudged just like the last time? What? The Others don't have a Props Master? Well there's the problem! Don't blame Lost, blame this little theatrical group of Others!


I agree with all that except for one instance:

In the episode "Three Minutes" they had a flashback to the encounter with the others shown in "The Hunting Party".

For this flashback, they mixed footage from the episode "The Hunting Party" with footage newly filmed for the episode "Three Minutes".

However, the "new" and "old" footage didn't match, even though the new and old shots were supposed to happen within seconds of each other.

From one camera angle to the next, within this flashback, the length and fullness of Tom's beard changes, and the amount of dirt on his face changes from a lot (old re-used footage) to almost none (new footage).

Since all this is supposed to represent the same encounter, and only seconds of time, this is a makeup department error.


----------



## Mike Farrington

Maybe the beard belonged to Ethan. He was found out by the losties, so there was never a need for him to dress as a hillbillie in their presence. Also, dead men can't clean out their lockers.


----------



## hefe

drew2k said:


> About "The Beard":
> 
> Everyone is assuming that the Beard Kate found belongs to Tom, but there is nothing to support that. It could belong to _any_ of the Others.


I don't know about that... I think they specifically implied that it was his. In the same locker, Kate found Tom's hat...


----------



## drew2k

Fish Man said:


> . . .
> 
> However, the "new" and "old" footage didn't match, even though the new and old shots were supposed to happen within seconds of each other.
> 
> From one camera angle to the next, within this flashback, the length and fullness of Tom's beard changes, and the amount of dirt on his face changes from a lot (old re-used footage) to almost none (new footage).
> 
> Since all this is supposed to represent the same encounter, and only seconds of time, this is a makeup department error.


OK, now I understand what all the hub-bub is about. This is a makeup/continuity error.


----------



## Mike Farrington

Is that a camoflague jacket in that locker shot (top photo)?


----------



## JMikeD

drew2k said:


> OK, now I understand what all the hub-bub is about. This is a makeup/continuity error.


Yes. If people were fired for continuity errors, there wouldn't be anyone left in the movie/tv industry.


----------



## jkeegan

stalemate said:


> I'd like to find a good screenshot of what the symbols finally settle in on. I wonder if it has been the same 5 final symbols both times.


During Locke's flirt with the symbols (after he wrestled with Jack about whether Sayid should torture Gale), we only saw 4 of the symbols, but they were the same.. The second one wasn't shown - all we saw was the first, third, fourth, and fifth.. Those four symbols, if you look at them right (at least to me), spell out "L O S T" (in addition to whatever other meaning the actual symbols have).

(The first letter needs to be flipped vertically to be an L, but it _looks_ like an L.. The second letter we saw (the third in the final pic) looks like a squished O with a line below it, the third just kind of looks like an S - couldn't tell why at first, then I saw that on the left side of the bird, its body makes an S.. Start at the back of its head, move towards where its head hits its beak, go down the body, out on the foot, and to the end of the foot.. that's an S. I wasn't _digging_ for that - I just "saw" the word Lost, and later figured out what about the bird made it look like an S to me. The last letter is obvious - an almost upside-down T).

This time, in the finale, not only do we see that e-like character in the previously-not-visible 2nd slot, but during the flips there are also a bunch of other symbols - at least one other, but I think more.


----------



## mcdougll

durl said:


> Since we've been given clues that Libby is deeply involved with Dharma, [snip]


Umm, What? Clues that Libby is deeply involved with Dharma? 
--
Different subject: Supposedly Kelvin was killed on the funny-looking rocks near the shore. I'm positive the Losties have been shown traversing that same part of the shore, yet Kelvin's body or remains are nowhere to be seen. Why?

Also, now that we know there is a significant consequence to not pushing the button, I understand why they have to "push the button". However, why do they have to enter a code at all? Why not have a big red button labeled "BUTTON" that they have to push every time? What does the code have to do with it?


----------



## NoThru22

Fish Man said:


> For this flashback, they mixed footage from the episode "The Hunting Party" with footage newly filmed for the episode "Three Minutes".
> 
> However, the "new" and "old" footage didn't match, even though the new and old shots were supposed to happen within seconds of each other.


Thank you for doing what I was too lazy to do! Jeez. I even included a visual aid in my post, and people are still arguing whether the Others have a prop master or not.

And still, people are ignoring when this show tells us things _directly_. They debunk stuff onscreen that people debate for weeks!

There is NO evidence of a feral group of Others! The beard in the medical hatch was supposed to be Tom's because they showed us his hat (which I said a bunch of times, no one reads my posts apparently, especially if they want to argue with them.) I'm pretty sure they showed us there really is no sickness. Or at least, no vaccine will really work against it. I just thought of another continuity error. They showed that Desmond stopped believing in the sickness and the vaccine when he saw Kelvin go out in the woods and take his suit off, but Desmond was still taking the vaccine when Locke blew up the hatch door, which took place afterward. Is that a mistake?


----------



## kdelande

jkeegan said:


> During Locke's flirt with the symbols (after he wrestled with Jack about whether Sayid should torture Gale), we only saw 4 of the symbols, but they were the same.. The second one wasn't shown - all we saw was the first, third, fourth, and fifth.. Those four symbols, if you look at them right (at least to me), spell out "L O S T" (in addition to whatever other meaning the actual symbols have).


I think that's a pretty big reach myself.

KD


----------



## drew2k

NoThru22 said:


> . . .
> 
> And still, people are ignoring when this show tells us things _directly_. They debunk stuff onscreen that people debate for weeks!
> 
> . . .


Did someone say something? 

Just kidding! I kid because I kan.

I missed your post about Tom's hat also being in the locker with the Beard. I tend to agree with you that the purpose of showing us the locker and its stage props was to let us know that the Others are just dressing up. Fake Henry's group is putting on an act, and we have been let in on the secret twice: first, when Claire's flashback to her time in the medical hatch revealed Tom and Ethan in "civilized" clothes, and then when the props were revealed.

Sure, people will continue to argue that this group may be dressing up simply to appear like the supposed OTHER group of Others, to fool the Lostaways. It's going to be a long summer until the next new episode, so I say let them argue!


----------



## NoThru22

kdelande said:


> I think that's a pretty big reach myself.
> 
> KD


Reach is Jeff's middle name (no offense Jeff! )


----------



## hefe

mcdougll said:


> Different subject: Supposedly Kelvin was killed on the funny-looking rocks near the shore. I'm positive the Losties have been shown traversing that same part of the shore, yet Kelvin's body or remains are nowhere to be seen. Why?


We don't know if those were supposed to be the same rocks. I know that when the tailies brought Michael, Sawyer and Jin back to camp they walked over a rocky area. Who knows, maybe it's even the same area that both scenes were filmed in, but that doesn't mean that in the story it was supposed to be the same place. Even if it was, and Kelvin's body was off the path a bit, you'd think that they'd have seen Desmond's boat, unless that cove was _really _ hidden somehow. But regardless, it may simply be that it's not the same place...


----------



## Church AV Guy

thenightfly42 said:


> The part you are remembering is
> 
> 
> 
> [We see people cleaning up the food "pantry" at the beach. Charlie arrives out of the jungle.]
> 
> BERNARD: Charlie, are you okay?
> 
> CHARLIE: It's hard to tell exactly. But, my ears, you know?
> 
> BERNARD: Where's Locke -- Eko?
> 
> CHARLIE: They're not back yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...however, that was followed up by...
> 
> 
> 
> CLAIRE: What happened out there, Charlie?
> 
> CHARLIE: You want to hear the part about me nearly being killed by the flaming fireball -- or the flying fork?
> 
> CLAIRE: I want you to be serious.
> 
> CHARLIE: Nothing happened.
> 
> CLAIRE: Well, something happened. I mean that noise, and the sky turned that weird violet color.
> 
> CHARLIE: Did it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ...which says that Charlie is being deliberately obtuse -- he remembers the forks and fireball, and is being coy about the rest of it.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. I think that besides Claire, no one remembers it ever happening. Why she remembers it I can't imagine, but I suspect that none of the rest of the people on the island remember it. Locke Eko and Desmond maybe, but Charlie remembers nothing after the flying metal in the Swan Hatch.

On a different note, I now firmly believe that with the Swan hatch deactivated, the "conditions" on the island will change radically. It will not be the same island anymore. I'm not sure how it will change, but I am certain that the change will be so dramatic that Lost next year will almost be like a whole new show, with new rules for survival. It's possible that eventually the Losties and the Others will have to join forces to survive.

[muse mode on] Losties, is that a breakfast cereal? If you ate them one at a time, would you be eating a cereal serial, or a serial cereal? [muse mode off]


----------



## Fish Man

hefe said:


> We don't know if those were supposed to be the same rocks. I know that when the tailies brought Michael, Sawyer and Jin back to camp they walked over a rocky area. Who knows, maybe it's even the same area that both scenes were filmed in, but that doesn't mean that in the story it was supposed to be the same place. Even if it was, and Kelvin's body was off the path a bit, you'd think that they'd have seen Desmond's boat, unless that cove was _really _ hidden somehow. But regardless, it may simply be that it's not the same place...


Between killing Kelvin, and Locke finding him (40 days), Desmond could have 1) Buried Kelvin's body and, 2) Hidden the boat better.

He should have had time to do these things, with proper planning, because we know that on the day he killed Kelvin he: followed him outside several minutes after a "reset", stalked him for quite a while, confronted him when he saw his boat, killed him, freaked out and greaved about killing him for an unspecified amount of time, went back to the hatch... to find the timer had *just expired*.

So, if he could do all that in 108 minutes, with the proper planning, he should have had time to bury Kelvin (he could dig, and then refill a grave in several < 108 minute shifts, he didn't necessarily have to do it all at once), and hide the boat better (perhaps by taking it deeper into the cove), again, perhaps, in several < 108 minute shifts.


----------



## dswallow

Maybe the timer only counts down when there's people in the station to see it.


----------



## JYoung

Fish Man said:


> Between killing Kelvin, and Locke finding him (40 days), Desmond could have 1) Buried Kelvin's body and, 2) Hidden the boat better.
> 
> He should have had time to do these things, with proper planning, because we know that on the day he killed Kelvin he: followed him outside several minutes after a "reset", stalked him for quite a while, confronted him when he saw his boat, killed him, freaked out and greaved about killing him for an unspecified amount of time, went back to the hatch... to find the timer had *just expired*.
> 
> So, if he could do all that in 108 minutes, with the proper planning, he should have had time to bury Kelvin (he could dig, and then refill a grave in several < 108 minute shifts, he didn't necessarily have to do it all at once), and hide the boat better (perhaps by taking it deeper into the cove), again, perhaps, in several < 108 minute shifts.


He could have just chucked Kelvin's body into the cove and let the shark(s) deal with it.


----------



## stellie93

They went to a lot of trouble to convey the grubby hostiles image--even as far as having 6 or 7 people dress up and seem to be working around the fake camp when they brought Michael in. You'd think that using the same fake beard every time would be an easy way to avoid suspicion. I bet "Henry" would be unhappy with Tom if he changed beards every time the Losties saw him!


----------



## magaggie

drew2k said:


> About "The Beard":
> 
> Everyone is assuming that the Beard Kate found belongs to Tom, but there is nothing to support that. It could belong to _any_ of the Others.
> The Beard was left behind. This means the Wearer of the Beard either chose to go without wearing the Beard or had Other Beards at Other locations, or had to scramble to find an alternate Beard to replace the one left behind. (See Jeeter's earlier post.)
> If there are multiple Beards, who says they have to be identical? If you believe it was indeed Tom's Beard left behind in the locker, maybe Tom borrowed a Beard from Dick (who stayed home for the Season Finale).
> The Beard is a prop used by the Others. Do you think the Others have a Props Master or Continuity Master to ensure Tom's scruff is exactly the same from one foray into the jungle to the next? Or that Dick's "costume" is smudged just like the last time? What? The Others don't have a Props Master? Well there's the problem! Don't blame Lost, blame this little theatrical group of Others!


OMG please never say the word Beard again!


----------



## drew2k

magaggie said:


> OMG please never say the word Beard again!


Hee hee! Me likes that you caught on and used the uppercase 'B'!


----------



## wprager

mcdougll said:


> Umm, What? Clues that Libby is deeply involved with Dharma?
> --
> Different subject: Supposedly Kelvin was killed on the funny-looking rocks near the shore. I'm positive the Losties have been shown traversing that same part of the shore, yet Kelvin's body or remains are nowhere to be seen. Why?
> 
> Also, now that we know there is a significant consequence to not pushing the button, I understand why they have to "push the button". However, why do they have to enter a code at all? Why not have a big red button labeled "BUTTON" that they have to push every time? What does the code have to do with it?


Way when we first learned about pushing the button, I assumed that not pushing it would destroy the island and everyone on it. The reason for entering the code was to ensure that there's still someone worth keeping alive (i.e. you have to prove you're worthy of living another 108 minutes by entering the code).

Of course, since that time a lot of things have come (and gone) and now I'm no longer so sure; however, some variation on the theme is still possible (i.e. it cannot be _just anybody_ pushing the button).


----------



## TAsunder

About the baby thing, just giving you a hard time. I always find it amusing when parents analogize everything to raising a kid.

About the beard. I'm starting to think the whole fake beard thing is just the writers making fun of the fans for obsessing over stuff like why everyone seems clean shaven if there are no razors. The guy puts on a fake beard so people don't know he has a razor blade...


----------



## gchance

wprager said:


> Way when we first learned about pushing the button, I assumed that not pushing it would destroy the island and everyone on it. The reason for entering the code was to ensure that there's still someone worth keeping alive (i.e. you have to prove you're worthy of living another 108 minutes by entering the code).


I don't take it like this at all. Anyone can enter numbers, yet not be "worthy".

It's much simpler than that. Having to push a simple button would make it somewhat easy to rig, since there's plenty of electronic equipment there (along with at last one timer circuit). Being required to enter a series of numbers would make it much more difficult to rig and more likely for a human being (worthy of living or otherwise) to be there and capable of being watched.. and capable of being manipulated.

Greg


----------



## Fish Man

drew2k said:


> Hee hee! Me likes that you caught on and used the uppercase 'B'!


The drummer for ZZ Top?

(The only member without one?)


----------



## aeedee

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> You know, I thought the exact same thing.
> 
> Penny Widmore. Giant foot from ruined statue (why was I immediately reminded of Ozymandias -- well, except for that whole "four toes" thing!) Itchy fake beards (and fake hatches!) Violet skies. WAY too much to digest at the moment -- have to watch it again.
> 
> Tomorrow. ;D


i love Ozymandias


----------



## Delta13

I thought it was obvious - if they had thought to double each number when entering the code, they would have gotten 216 minutes of peace at a time.


----------



## wprager

gchance said:


> I don't take it like this at all. Anyone can enter numbers, yet not be "worthy".
> 
> It's much simpler than that. Having to push a simple button would make it somewhat easy to rig, since there's plenty of electronic equipment there (along with at last one timer circuit). Being required to enter a series of numbers would make it much more difficult to rig and more likely for a human being (worthy of living or otherwise) to be there and capable of being watched.. and capable of being manipulated.
> 
> Greg


I never said, nor mean _worthy_. More like, the effects of the "disease" would render you unable to enter all the numbers (while just pushing a button would still be doable). So if you aren't able to enter the numbers, you're probably "sick" so, too bad, this experiment will be terminated.

It wasn't a well-developed theory, or anything and, like I said, things have happened since then, so I don't subscribe to it anymore; still, there could be some similar reason for making people enter the numbers.


----------



## stalemate

wprager said:


> I never said, nor mean _worthy_.


You definitely did (post 773). You might not have meant it the way it was taken, but you said it nonetheless.


----------



## greg_burns

Church AV Guy said:


> I don't think so. I think that besides Claire, no one remembers it ever happening. Why she remembers it I can't imagine, but I suspect that none of the rest of the people on the island remember it. Locke Eko and Desmond maybe, but Charlie remembers nothing after the flying metal in the Swan Hatch.


While I agree the way everyone reacted after the event was odd, I think it was just poorly shot/written. If what you say is true, surely they would have made a greater attempt to clarify that point. Oh, wait, this is Lost. 

Also, weren't some of the Losties shown reshelving the fallen food and cleaning up stuff. If they didn't remember anything, wouldn't they be wondering aloud what happened to cause all that?

Edit: Just heard Michelle Rodriguez is on the Tonight show tonight..


----------



## Delta13

Watching parts of "3 Minutes" again, I noticed a couple of things. 

The Luger is not only shown by Tom (in "Hunting Party"), the guy shooting at Michael when he first tries to run away also uses a Luger.

No one else has a beard even remotely the same length as Tom's. In fact, some only have stubble and don't even have beards. To me, this kills off the beard discussion for everyone else but Tom / fake Henry. No one else has one! (no one else wears a hat, for that matter.)

If the Others' camp is a fake, they were still outfitted for something. They kept Michael there a week, so they had to have food, water, etc. 

-----

I don't believe in the "Desmond turned the key, everybody forgets" explanation. No one on the boat dock seems to have any trouble at all, for instance. And Bernard asks Charlie about Eko and Locke, he didn't forget.

Charlie is clearly playing dumb with Claire, and I think he figures that Eko and Locke got whatever they had coming, and best yet, they got it together. He just doesn't care what happens to them. Plus, he wasn't there for the final moments so he really doesn't know the ending.

Now, is it a continuity error that Bernard asks about Eko and Locke? Did anyone know where Locke went when he left the beach? Unless Bernard is tapped into the Others News Network, how did he know?


----------



## jkeegan

Phew, finally caught up.



Delta13 said:


> I think Desmond accepted the offer because Libby's husband was named David. It was a sign to him. I think Libby's offer was sincere, and just plain happenstance. Remember, she seemed to want to help people (and Hurley even said "She helped lots of people" in her funeral speech.)
> 
> I think Widmore putting her up to giving Desmond the boat is bit over the top. Why not just have him eliminated?


Sorry, missing the reference.. why does the name David mean anything to Desmond? (it's late, I can't think)



Delta13 said:


> I hate explaining puns, but here goes: I was riffing on the "causative *mood*" of "to die".
> 
> Nothing kills a joke like explaining, so ironically, this joke must also go "to die".


_(gritting teeth)_.. Nope, that's not irony. No contradiction from what you'd expect. _Coincidentally_ the joke must go to die.. but not ironically. (sorry, pet peeve)



NoThru22 said:


> Reach is Jeff's middle name (no offense Jeff! )


None taken!

Still can't believe I caught up.. I had a camping trip and my daughter's tonsil surgery in there too.


----------



## wprager

stalemate said:


> You definitely did (post 773). You might not have meant it the way it was taken, but you said it nonetheless.


My mistake. I said "worthy of living", but I to me this is semantically different from simply "worthy" (as in "We're not worthy" -- the word "worthy" somehow implying another's superiority). What I should have said in 733 was that by entering the numbers the button pusher showed that some mental capacity beyond simply pushing a button yet existed.


----------



## gchance

Nothing of too much consequence, but... last night ABC repeated "Man of Science, Man of Faith" (the season premiere). I hadn't seen it since it first aired because I had accidentally deleted the first two episodes of the season.

Anyway, when Kate tells Jack she's going down the hatch with Locke, she says to him, "Live together, die alone, right?" So there you go. 

Greg


----------



## jlb

I know it's probably a major smeek, but maybe this is all Alice In Wonderland. Yeah, the plane crashed on the Island, but maybe once they "went down the rabbit hole".......who knows.......discuss amongst yourselves.....


----------



## hefe

jlb said:


> I know it's probably a major smeek, but maybe this is all Alice In Wonderland. Yeah, the plane crashed on the Island, but maybe once they "went down the rabbit hole".......who knows.......discuss amongst yourselves.....


Yeah, I'd say you smeeked the 4th episode of Season 1 which was titled, "White Rabbit."


----------



## jonhunt

Will this be repeated this summer? About 15 minutes into my playback TIVO switched to another channel...for some unknown reason. I missed the show.


----------



## BrettStah

I think you can watch it for free at abc.com...


----------



## mqpickles

jkeegan said:


> Sorry, missing the reference.. why does the name David mean anything to Desmond? (it's late, I can't think)


Desmond's middle name is David. The guard releasing him from prison used his full name: Desmond David Hume.


----------



## philw1776

Delta13 said:


> Charlie is clearly playing dumb with Claire, and I think he figures that Eko and Locke got whatever they had coming, and best yet, they got it together. He just doesn't care what happens to them. Plus, he wasn't there for the final moments so he really doesn't know the ending.


I don't buy that he doesn't care about Eko. He strenuously tried to warn Eko to get further away from the explosion.


----------



## Mike Farrington

philw1776 said:


> I don't buy that he doesn't care about Eko. He strenuously tried to warn Eko to get further away from the explosion.


I agree. Charlie said, with a little surprise "They're not back yet?". I think he knows that they survived the hatch, but just doesn't know where they are at the moment.

Who knows, maybe they ran into the French chick in the woods or something. Any number of things could have held them up.


----------



## philw1776

Put me in the camp that Desmond, Eko and Locke are all alive.


----------



## cherry ghost

Mike Farrington said:


> I agree. Charlie said, with a little surprise "They're not back yet?". I think he knows that they survived the hatch, but just doesn't know where they are at the moment.
> 
> Who knows, maybe they ran into the French chick in the woods or something. Any number of things could have held them up.


Maybe they "got caught in a net".


----------



## jkeegan

cherry ghost said:


> Maybe they "got caught in a net".


 LOL


----------



## Delta13

I think the proof about Charlie is in his actions: if he really did care, he would have gone back to look for them. Or see what happened down there. But he didn't. (So far as we know, anyway.)

Plus, every time someone asked him a question in this ep, Charlie had a smartaleck answer. Every chance he had to be sarcastic he took. So that's how I take his "They're not here yet?" comment - Charlie left BEFORE Eko and Locke, why would they have beaten him back? He simply doesn't want to answer anyone's questions.

It's why he told Bernard "My ears, you know..." when Bernard started asking him questions. Bernard had no idea that dynamite had been set off inside the hatch. Charlie was just trying to duck him.

And he flat out lied to Claire that nothing happened down in the hatch. Something's up with him, but it's a little unclear just what. I'm probably oversimplifying by saying he doesn't care, but that's my impression.


----------



## Delta13

Delta13 said:


> I hate explaining puns, but here goes: I was riffing on the "causative mood" of "to die".
> 
> Nothing kills a joke like explaining, so ironically, this joke must also go "to die".





jkeegan said:


> (gritting teeth).. Nope, that's not irony. No contradiction from what you'd expect. Coincidentally the joke must go to die.. but not ironically. (sorry, pet peeve)


Man, if you'd just read these threads a _little_ faster then I wouldn't have had to explain the thing ...   

(hope the surgery stuff went okay ...)


----------



## jkeegan

It did - at least in that she woke from the anestesia(sp?) and there's no bleeding yet. Laurie and Alicia are home now, and we're watching her for 2 weeks to make sure there's no bleeding, which apparently can be a big problem.

My other daughter, Emily, who's 3 now, also has to have her tonsils out now (they both had strep on and off all season). 

Luckily, they both had access to actual doctors to perform the surgery (with actual surgical tools), instead of Jack's makeshift bamboo-based cut-'em-open-and-hope approach. 

..Jeff


----------



## TR7spyder

Let me take a break in the facial hair discussion

Michael, knew about Sayids ambush party yet he didnt tell the others about it (or at least, they havent showed it). Regardless whether or not it proves to be useful, it shows that he still has some loyalty toward the losties. 

And what are the odds that Sayids sail boat accidentally intercepts Michaels boat? That could spell the end of Michael.


----------



## betts4

TR7spyder said:


> And what are the odds that Sayids sail boat accidentally intercepts Michaels boat? That could spell the end of Michael.


And Man, if that would happen, imagine poor Michael. Two Boats (well one a sail raft) in just a couple weeks and they BOTH get smashed up. If I was Walt, I wouldn't be getting on any other floating devices with Dad.


----------



## mqpickles

TR7spyder said:


> Michael, knew about Sayids ambush party yet he didnt tell the others about it (or at least, they havent showed it). Regardless whether or not it proves to be useful, it shows that he still has some loyalty toward the losties.


 Well, it at least shows a lack of loyalty to the others. He may not be loyal to either group, but content to take his son, get out of there, and leave the Losties and the Others to their own devices.


----------



## TAsunder

"By the way, there's an iraqi way down near the beach who is mad at you and probably won't ever find us."


----------



## gchance

"You have 6 fingers on your right hand. Someone is looking for you."

Greg


----------



## DCIFRTHS

mqpickles said:


> Well, it at least shows a lack of loyalty to the others. He may not be loyal to either group, but content to take his son, get out of there, and leave the Losties and the Others to their own devices.


That's the way I see it too.


----------



## smickola

Maybe all of the others actually have beards, and they are wearing makeup to make it look like they don't!

(No, I don't actually think that, just lightening up the facial hair discussion..)


----------



## gchance

I forget, did Ethan Rom have a beard? Because Tom Cruise has one.

Greg


----------



## Mike Farrington

gchance said:


> "You have 6 fingers on your right hand. Someone is looking for you."


Don't start quoting that movie or this thread will easily double in size.


----------



## hefe

Mike Farrington said:


> Don't start quoting that movie or this thread will easily double in size.


Inconceivable!


----------



## stevieleej

I betting that Michael will drive his boat and find Sayid. He'll leave Walt with Sun. Jin, Sayid and Michael will then go and try to rescue the losties. The losties will not be there because they will have been taken to an underwater hatch.

What other reason could there be that they took everyone out to the dock. They only needed to take Michael.


----------



## unicorngoddess

Whew!

This teaches me to not go on vacation the day after a season finale. I've been reading this whole thread during my downtime at work and it's taken me like three days.

There's probably things I've wanted to comment on, but have sense forgotten. I only remember wanting to comment on one thing.

Walt speaking backwards. Apparently he told Shannon to not push the button because the button was bad and some people here were wondering why he would say that if it was proved that not pushing the button causes something bad.

What if it wasn't just Walt's speach that was coming out backwards, but the meaning as well???

I was also thinking about why Desmond was in prison. For some reason the only thing I could think of was murder...that does seem to be an ongoing theme for this show. My brain came up with this crazy theory that maybe he and Pen had a child and their child died in some accident. Then Desmond went out and killed the person he felt was responsible for the death. But that's just a theory and I have absolutely nothing to back it up.



> "You have 6 fingers on your right hand. Someone is looking for you."


And, by the way, you killed my father. Prepare to die.


----------



## TriBruin

hefe said:


> Inconceivable!


Must Resist!!!!

Oh heck with it.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means"


----------



## madscientist

TR7spyder said:


> Michael, knew about Sayids ambush party yet he didnt tell the others about it (or at least, they havent showed it).


Are we sure about that? I don't remember Jack telling Michael, or anyone else, about Sayid. Jack just said he had a plan. But I could be mis-remembering...


----------



## scotthemme

madscientist said:


> Are we sure about that? I don't remember Jack telling Michael, or anyone else, about Sayid. Jack just said he had a plan. But I could be mis-remembering...


They all noticed the black smoke that Sayid was supposed to be using to signal them so I think it's safe to assume Jack told them about Sayid.


----------



## stevieleej

madscientist said:


> Are we sure about that? I don't remember Jack telling Michael, or anyone else, about Sayid. Jack just said he had a plan. But I could be mis-remembering...


I'm guessing that when Jack said he had a plan, he filled everyone in on it - including Michael. That's why I think Michael will immediately go and find Sayid.


----------



## hefe

scotthemme said:


> They all noticed the black smoke that Sayid was supposed to be using to signal them so I think it's safe to assume Jack told them about Sayid.


Did he actually say he was going to use black smoke?

(My recording cut out a lot due to storms.)

Edit: Post number *815*! Woo-hoo!


----------



## scotthemme

hefe said:


> Did he actually say he was going to use black smoke?
> 
> (My recording cut out a lot due to storms.)


Yes. Sayid told Jack he would use a certain type of leaf specifically so the smoke would be black.


----------



## phox_mulder

scotthemme said:


> They all noticed the black smoke that Sayid was supposed to be using to signal them so I think it's safe to assume Jack told them about Sayid.


But was it Sayid's smoke, or the Others smoke.

Wasn't Sayid back on the boat by the time Jack and company encountered the Others?
Why would Sayid go back to the boat if he just signaled them?

phox


----------



## jkeegan

stevieleej said:


> I betting that Michael will drive his boat and find Sayid. He'll leave Walt with Sun.


Stopped reading right there. I can't see Michael ever letting Walt out of his sight again - I wouldn't be surprised if he asked a doctor to have Walt surgically attached to his side!


----------



## scotthemme

phox_mulder said:


> But was it Sayid's smoke, or the Others smoke.


We don't know who's smoke it was. But we do know that Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and Michael recognized the smoke as a signal from Sayid which tells us that Jack told the rest of the group of their plan. The smoke probably wasn't Sayid's, but that's not the point.


----------



## getreal

unicorngoddess said:


> I was also thinking about why Desmond was in prison. For some reason the only thing I could think of was murder...


My speculation is that Desmond might have been an army deserter and got locked up for that, then discharged from Her Majesty's Royal Army upon release. Mr. Widmore called him a "coward", so I'm guessing that he refused to kill someone (in the line of duty) and then either deserted or was locked up for refusing an order.

It was only by accident that "he killed Kelvin" _(wink to "South Park")_ on the lava flows.

Even though he's threatened people with guns, I see Des as a lover (and a boozer) instead of as a fighter.


----------



## mqpickles

getreal said:


> Mr. Widmore called him a "coward", so I'm guessing that he refused to kill someone (in the line of duty) and then either deserted or was locked up for refusing an order.


Could be. That would be similar to Jin, who was supposed to kill someone for Sun's father, but let him off with a "stern" warning instead.

Whatever Desmond did or didn't do, I'd say it's a safe bet that he was not simply a coward. Either he refused to obey an immoral order, or he deserted from a unit that was engaging in atrocities, or...


----------



## stellie93

I never did get the idea of the black smoke. Why let the others know you're coming? As it turned out it let Jack know that they were nowhere near the camp where Michael was held, but didn't they think that both groups were heading to the same place--that camp? So why signal? Am I right in assuming that Michael led them to that clearing where they were attacked with the poison darts on the Others' orders, or did the others just follow them and find them there? So if it wasn't Sayid's smoke, what was it for?


----------



## stellie93

When I watched the rerun this week I noticed that Desmond told Jack he was almost a doctor once. I wondered if his crime might have been related to practicing medicine--some disagreement about allocation of time or resources to the enemy wounded maybe.


----------



## TIVOSciolist

stellie93 said:


> I never did get the idea of the black smoke. Why let the others know you're coming? As it turned out it let Jack know that they were nowhere near the camp where Michael was held, but didn't they think that both groups were heading to the same place--that camp? So why signal? Am I right in assuming that Michael led them to that clearing where they were attacked with the poison darts on the Others' orders, or did the others just follow them and find them there? So if it wasn't Sayid's smoke, what was it for?


The black smoke was to provide plausible deniability in case they were caught.

*Barefoot Other #23:* Hey you on the beach, what are you doing there with the black smoke?

*Sayid:* Um . . . er . . . nothing. Just wanted to signal everyone to let them know that they're still working on picking the new Pope. It's not like we were planning to attack you or anything like that.


----------



## stellie93

lol


----------



## PhantomDilbert

will this thread get to 1000?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

mqpickles said:


> Could be. That would be similar to Jin, who was supposed to kill someone for Sun's father, but let him off with a "stern" warning instead.
> 
> Whatever Desmond did or didn't do, I'd say it's a safe bet that he was not simply a coward. Either he refused to obey an immoral order, or he deserted from a unit that was engaging in atrocities, or...


Didn't Jin come home with blood all over him in season one?


----------



## TAsunder

Hm, I don't think it's beyond desmond to simply be a coward, lazy, or similar. I would find it right in keeping with the way they have portrayed him thus far, in fact.

How long was he in prison? Years I think. I'm not seeing deserting. I'm thinking something semi-nefarious. Like maybe stole a jeep and landmine and blowed up whidmore's yacht or something.


----------



## nedthelab

Dharma sure suplies a lot of houch for their subjects


----------



## getreal

TAsunder said:


> Hm, I don't think it's beyond desmond to simply be a coward, lazy, or similar. ... I'm not seeing deserting...


But remember how quickly he deserted the hatch once Locke et. al. learned the routine with the computer ...

Then trying to flee on his own in the boat ... only to drift back to the starting line ...

We need more of Des in Season 3 ... he has so much more story to be told.


----------



## greg_burns

Then there's the whole thing with Roussou warning that black smoke meant the others were coming. How does that fit it?


----------



## NoThru22

DCIFRTHS said:


> Didn't Jin come home with blood all over him in season one?


Yes, which was explained by what pickles said in his post. Jin beat him up and let him go with a warning.


----------



## mqpickles

DCIFRTHS said:


> Didn't Jin come home with blood all over him in season one?


Yeah, but I'm pretty sure he just beat the crap out of the guy. I'm sure someone here has a better memory of the episode than I do. At any rate, on his next outing, he didn't off the guy he was supposed to off.



TAsunder said:


> Hm, I don't think it's beyond desmond to simply be a coward, lazy, or similar. I would find it right in keeping with the way they have portrayed him thus far, in fact.


Well, I suppose that depends on where they're going with this, but one way or another he has to be worthy of Penelope. Either (1) Des was imprisoned unjustly and has always been a fit suitor for her, and her father is a rat (I think more likely) or (2) Des has been a rotten weasel his whole life and in an amazing twist of fate has finally done one honorable, selfless act (i.e., turning the key), and that happens to be the thing that allows Penelope to find him (and may also happen to be the thing that has killed him).


----------



## avery

[my first post!]

Although it wasn't _specifically_ mentioned, I think it was strongly inferred that Desmond was in jail due to insubordination, which may or may not have involved an act of "perceived"cowardice - at least in the eyes of the army. [and Mr. Widmore] The officer/guard that was processing his release, made a disparaging reference to 'maybe you'll learn to follow orders' [words to that effect], before pronouncing him dishonorably discharged form the army. I immediately took that to suggest insubordination.


----------



## jfjellstad

TIVOSciolist said:


> The black smoke was to provide plausible deniability in case they were caught.
> 
> *Barefoot Other #23:* Hey you on the beach, what are you doing there with the black smoke?
> 
> *Sayid:* Um . . . er . . . nothing. Just wanted to signal everyone to let them know that they're still working on picking the new Pope. It's not like we were planning to attack you or anything like that.


Why would you pick out a new Pope? John Paul II isn't dead yet.


----------



## Delta13

Welcome aboard, Avery!

"Cowardice under fire" or "Failure to follow a rightful order" can get one's behind put in military jail, but there generally has to be something else involved. Something bad has to happen because of the cowardice or failure. But unless it was truly catastrophic, the prison term would be for the rest of the enlistment. (You can be imprisoned for longer if serious enough.)

In the American military, we distinguish between "prison" and "stockade" time. Prison is generally for those over 6 months in length, possibly a year, and is served at a military prison. Stockade time is served locally. No clue how the Scots do it.

Judging from the box of letters to Penelope, 1 to 2 years max. If he wrote once a week for a year it would have filled the box Widmore had. Maybe someone can go back and count the letters in the box ...

Based on the Sayid-Jack plan, the episode could have been called "A Bad Plan, Poorly Executed". 

And finally, we could reach 1000 posts, especially if we invite someone back from the beginning of the thread. (cough, cough)


----------



## mqpickles

Delta13 said:


> Welcome aboard, Avery!


Ditto.


Delta13 said:


> And finally, we could reach 1000 posts, especially if we invite someone back from the beginning of the thread. (cough, cough)


Took me a minute to know what you were talking about here, but yes. (cough, cough) Anyway, we have all summer.


----------



## teknikel

mqpickles said:


> Ditto.Took me a minute to know what you were talking about here, but yes. (cough, cough) Anyway, we have all summer.


Oh, I get it now! E! (cough, cough).


----------



## philw1776

TIVOSciolist said:


> The black smoke was to provide plausible deniability in case they were caught.
> 
> *Barefoot Other #23:* Hey you on the beach, what are you doing there with the black smoke?
> 
> *Sayid:* Um . . . er . . . nothing. Just wanted to signal everyone to let them know that they're still working on picking the new Pope. It's not like we were planning to attack you or anything like that.


Sayid Catholic? Whoa! All this time I thought it was Eko.


----------



## mqpickles

philw1776 said:


> Sayid Catholic? Whoa! All this time I thought it was Eko.


Eko's not really even a priest, much less the Pope!


----------



## wmcbrine

getreal said:


> Even though he's threatened people with guns, I see Des as a lover (and a boozer) instead of as a fighter.


I agree. At least, we know that he regards all men as "brothers".


----------



## gchance

wmcbrine said:


> I agree. At least, we know that he regards all men as "brothers".


I never heard the word brother. It's "bruvva".

Greg


----------



## getreal

gchance said:


> I never heard the word brother. It's "bruvva".


More like "brothah". And I recall him calling Claire "sistah".


----------



## thwart

Timer, Timer where should I go
Compass, Compass when should I go

108 + 108 + 108 = 324
325 degrees = ? radians
325 degrees = ? 24 hour clock
325 degrees = ? day of 365 day year

His head wasn't bleeding when it hit the rock and Desmond's hands aren't bloody.

They were all "trapped in a net" long before Jack woke up on the island.

Bad weather very likely on December 26, 2004.

Michael will continue with Jack's plan.

Four digits per foot; four digits per hand --> base 4 or base 8 number system?

If Henry Gale's emoticon balloon wasn't meant for others to see down below than who exactly was it meant for?

The "gap" when they were going up the hill was no accident. Very much like the "gap" that we saw when they decended into the hatch for the first time.

__________________
Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Then they went back home.


----------



## philw1776

Anyone translate post #844?


----------



## Delta13

Sorry Houston, that's a negative on your last transmission ...

Other than 844 adds up to 16, I uh, got diddley-squat on that one.


----------



## Ruth

philw1776 said:


> Anyone translate post #844?


Inconceivable!


----------



## thwart

4 + 8 + 15 + 16 + 23 + 42 = 108

108 + 108 + 108 = 324 (a number that is very close to the number 325, the bearing that Michael is supposed to take to find rescue.

The bearing to follow in order to find rescue changes depending on the time of day and the time of year.

A bearing of 325 degrees is considered a relative danger bearing under certain conditions. What are those conditions?

Try playing around with the numbers. See what you find if you convert degrees into radians.

Kelvin's head wasn't bleeding after it supposedly hit the rock and Desmond's hands aren't bloody; but Desmond sure believes they are.

Considering how intertwined everyone is in Lost, it seems very clear that they didn't enter into the system just by falling from the sky. They've been logically trapped in the system long before the island.

On December 26th, 2004, An earthquake measuring 9.0 on the Richter magnitude scale created a tsunami causing devastation in Sri Lanka, India, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, The Maldives and many other areas around the rim of the Indian Ocean, killing more than 300,000. I wonder if it will affect the island?

Everyone that travelled across the island to "rescue Walt" knows Jacks plan -- including Michael. The plan involves Michael's boat and Desmond's boat. Michael's guilt will ultimately lead him to do the right thing.

Many theorize that many cultures have used a base-10 number system, because we have five digits on each of our hands. This could mean that the remains of the statue of the leg with four toes also contains at least one arm with four digits on it. This could mean that a base-4 or base-8 numeric system is involved. If you look at the numbers -- 4 8 15 16 23 42 -- you might think that a base-8 system could be involved. Unfortunately, the number 8 is not a number in the base-8 system (octal). The numbers in base-8 are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. It's a stretch, but we'll see.

Henry Gale's balloon has a giant smiley face on it. Is the giant smiley face on the top of the balloon? If so, what purpose would a smiley face serve if it was on top of the balloon? The smiley face would be visible from above the island; above the balloon; outside the system. Perhaps in a way that even "GOD could see."

There is some missing footage in the actual show. It's too obvious to be a mistake. In the finalee, when our five lostees are making their way up the hill a few seconds are missing. Suddenly, the lostees are further up the hill and the music is much louder. Could this somehow be related, at some freaky high-level, to the missing footage in the orientation film for the hatch? 

Lycopodium


----------



## astrohip

thwart said:


> 4 + 8 + 15 + 16 + 23 + 42 = 108
> 
> 108 + 108 + 108 = 324 (a number that is very close to the number 325, the bearing that Michael is supposed to take to find rescue.


It seems we can thread drift for weeks on numbers that match events that match occurences yada yada. If we start drifting on numbers that are *close* to matching (but no cigar), we could be here for years. 

Sorry, but I'll have to pass on that newsletter subscription.


----------



## krymaney

I've read the entire 848 posts and haven't seen anyone mention this: *course my eyes are now crossed from 848 posts*

Speaking to the innoculation not being a "good" thing and Michael now being infected.

In the scene where Michael was confronted by Jack and he replied he was gathering firewood....

Michael seemed to be concentrating on something resembling a rash or abrasion on his arm.

Someone with HD wanna go look at that scene again and tell us what it looks like?

Thanks!


----------



## thwart

astrohip said:


> It seems we can thread drift for weeks on numbers that match events that match occurences yada yada. If we start drifting on numbers that are *close* to matching (but no cigar), we could be here for years.
> 
> Sorry, but I'll have to pass on that newsletter subscription.


I guess you're too lazy to play with the numbers. Surely, there must be someone here who likes math like me.


----------



## mqpickles

thwart said:


> They were all "trapped in a net" long before Jack woke up on the island.


And they were all "lost" long before they got on that plane.


----------



## audioscience

nKhona said:


> Anyone catch the full on boob grab done to Kate by The Other behind her on the dock?





BeanMeScot said:


> Get over it. That was a woman (Alex, if I'm not mistaken) and she was trying to help Kate up. She was going to clasp her hands together to haul her up and turned her hand in a different direction to get better leverage. It was the top of the boob, not actual boob.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

krymaney said:


> I've read the entire 848 posts and haven't seen anyone mention this: *course my eyes are now crossed from 848 posts*
> 
> Speaking to the innoculation not being a "good" thing and Michael now being infected.
> 
> In the scene where Michael was confronted by Jack and he replied he was gathering firewood....
> 
> Michael seemed to be concentrating on something resembling a rash or abrasion on his arm.
> 
> Someone with HD wanna go look at that scene again and tell us what it looks like?
> 
> Thanks!


I've looked at it several times because it piqued my interest. I thought he was hiding something besides the list he was burning. It seemed to be, as you mentioned, a rash, or a burn maybe?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

audioscience said:


> *Picture removed to save space.*


That's an awesome shot you got there. I noticed it when it happened, but didn't realize it was a two handed grab  I had to go back and watch it in HD again. Of course, just to back up what you posted. I wouldn't want anyone calling shenanigans on you saying that you edited the gif 

Even funnier is that Alex, when she realized where she had grabbed, moved her hands under Kate's arm and I swear I could see a little smirk on her face (wishful thinking?). Kate didn't really seem to mind either way 

EDIT: Would you mind sharing how you got the content from TV to a gif? Thanks!


----------



## scotthemme

Delta13 said:


> Judging from the box of letters to Penelope, 1 to 2 years max. If he wrote once a week for a year it would have filled the box Widmore had. Maybe someone can go back and count the letters in the box...


Why would Widmore even show Des the box of presumably undelivered letters? Without that piece of knowledge, Des might have thought that Penelope had moved on despite his best efforts. Knowing she never got his letters might have given him hope for reconciliation that otherwise he wouldn't have had.


----------



## TriBruin

scotthemme said:


> Why would Widmore even show Des the box of presumably undelivered letters? Without that piece of knowledge, Des might have thought that Penelope had moved on despite his best efforts. Knowing she never got his letters might have given him hope for reconciliation that otherwise he wouldn't have had.


I think that was Widmore's way of showing Desmond that he (Widmore) would do everything in his power to keep Desmond away from Penelope. And with his money, that is a lot of power.


----------



## audioscience

DCIFRTHS said:


> That's an awesome shot you got there. I noticed it when it happened, but didn't realize it was a two handed grab  I had to go back and watch it in HD again. Of course, just to back up what you posted. I wouldn't want anyone calling shenanigans on you saying that you edited the gif
> 
> Even funnier is that Alex, when she realized where she had grabbed, moved her hands under Kate's arm and I swear I could see a little smirk on her face (wishful thinking?). Kate didn't really seem to mind either way
> 
> EDIT: Would you mind sharing how you got the content from TV to a gif? Thanks!


I didn't edit or create the GIF. A friend of mine sent me the link, I thought it was hilarious and I remember there was some talk about it on here so I thought I'd post it.

I did notice the boob grab right away the first time I watched the finale however and of course had to rewind it several times to to make sure I was seeing what I thought I saw - and of course to laugh about it.

Funny thing is I did the same thing to a friend once back in college. She was doing one of those "catch me I'm falling backwards" motions and I went to grab her and did the full-on boob grab accidentally. Of course I shifted my hands just like Alex.


----------



## TIVOSciolist

audioscience said:


>


Looks like some type of vertical CPR to me.


----------



## philw1776

thwart said:


> I guess you're too lazy to play with the numbers. Surely, there must be someone here who likes math like me.


Numerology is not mathematics.


----------



## gchance

OK, we know that Lindelof & Cuse are big Star Wars fans. This is just yet another Star Wars reference.










Greg


----------



## Hemi

OK.

I've finally read the entire thread... and I've yet to see any reference to Desmonds boat, which looks a lot like a ... Nautor Swan 42!

Swan 42

I haven't seen any screen captures to really nail it down but I think that it is close.

Anywho... This is how I see it:

Libby=Elisabeth<>Darma
Michael & Walt will not be able to leave
Sayid will rescue Jack, Kate, Saywer & Hurly (possibly by sniper)
Pen is looking for Desmond
Desmonds crash was not caused by Widmore
The Others are all ex-Darma tyring to continue the "experiment" after Hanso cancelled it.

Dan


----------



## TR7spyder

> Originally Posted by thwart:
> I guess you're too lazy to play with the numbers. Surely, there must be someone here who likes math like me.





philw1776 said:


> Numerology is not mathematics.


Right And if you actually like math, there is not such thing as very close in math (as in 324 is very close 325). It ether *is* or it *isnt*


----------



## jlb

These go to 11.


----------



## bruinfan

TIVOSciolist said:


> Looks like some type of vertical CPR to me.


obviously, it's a message for breast cancer awareness. the pink ribbons would've been too obvious.


----------



## thwart

TR7spyder said:


> Right And if you actually like math, there is not such thing as very close in math (as in 324 is very close 325). It ether *is* or it *isnt*


Exactly! Finally somebody gets it! 324 is not 325!

So why 325 then?

What makes 325 so special? You don't think they just made it up for no reason do you?

324 sure is close to 325 through.

325 is North/Northwest. That is if you don't have any magnets near your compass that would throw the readings off.

Wait! There's that big magnet on the island!

Does Fenry know what the 'white flash in the sky means'? Does he know to adjust the number because the magnets force is now different? If there even is still a force.

Or does he have absolutely no idea what the flash of white light was?

He sure did want Locke to see what would happen if he didn't push the button. I wonder if Fenry was expecting to see the white flash at some point in the future. Perhaps the white flash was the reason that Hurley was sent home. The white flash may mean something to the others. Maybe it signaled to them that they did not need Hurley any more.

Perhaps the numbers have lost there significance since the white flash.

Does the terrain that we saw Desmond chase Kelvin on make you think a little bit when you watched it for the first time or did you just think nothing of it?


----------



## getreal

bruinfan said:


> obviously, it's a message for breast cancer awareness.


Looks more like a "massage'... 



thwart said:


> ...Jacks plan ... involves Michael's boat and Desmond's boat.


At the point when Jack revealed that he had a plan, nobody knew Michael would be getting a boat.


----------



## hefe

thwart said:


> Exactly! Finally somebody gets it! 324 is not 325!
> 
> So why 325 then?
> 
> What makes 325 so special? You don't think they just made it up for no reason do you?
> 
> 324 sure is close to 325 through.


Whaa?

People deal in certain increments naturally. You ask them the time, you'll usually get "one-thirty" and not "one-thirty-one." 5s and 10s are normal for us to deal with unless there is a specific reason for scientific accuracy.

If they had said "324," you might have a point, although I still wouldn't know what it is. But saying 325 doesn't seem to imply anything more than that's the direction they want Michael to go for whatever reason...


----------



## thwart

getreal said:


> At the point when Jack revealed that he had a plan, nobody knew Michael would be getting a boat.


I think that Michael 'believes' that he is getting a boat. I think Michael told his fellow travellers about it when Jack said he had a plan.

We can sit around all day and toss facts around if you want. But if you have some faith maybe we can make a few discoveries before the Lostees do.


----------



## scotthemme

thwart said:


> I think that Michael 'believes' that he is getting a boat. I think Michael told his fellow travellers about it when Jack said he had a plan.


True. And the group might have altered the plan once they found out Michael might be getting a boat. However, at the point that Jack announced he had a plan, he didn't know anything about Michael's expectation of getting a boat.


----------



## getreal

thwart said:


> Wait! There's that big magnet on the island!
> Does Fenry know what the 'white flash in the sky means'? Does he know to adjust the number because the magnets force is now different?


Maybe there was a polar reversal when Desmond pushed the failsafe button.



thwart said:


> Perhaps the numbers have lost there significance since the white flash.


The numbers are woven into the fabric of the story too much to suddenly have lost their significance.

And the lava flows where Desmond accidentally killed Kelvin just made me think about Hawaii being volcanic islands. And that the mysterious LOST island is also a volcanic island. So there must be some volcanic activity somewhere yet to be discovered -- unless the volcano is dormant. And all the electromagnetic power may be somehow emanating from the magma churning beneath them.


----------



## thwart

hefe said:


> If they had said "324," you might have a point, although I still wouldn't know what it is. But saying 325 doesn't seem to imply anything more than that's the direction they want Michael to go for whatever reason...


 

Thanks for trying. I realize that you have been trying let me explain myself and give me a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. I guess I don't know what else to say other than 108 is a special number for a lot of reasons. 3 is a special number in too many ways to count. 325 is a special number in sailing. Magnets can throw a compass off. The island has a giant magnet on it.

Let's just say I have a hunch and leave it at that.


----------



## thwart

scotthemme said:


> True. And the group might have altered the plan once they found out Michael might be getting a boat. However, at the point that Jack announced he had a plan, he didn't know anything about Michael's expectation of getting a boat.


They way the Lostees are looking at eachother makes me think that the plan is still on. I think Michael was looking at them in a way that made me think he is going through with the 'new' plan.


----------



## hefe

thwart said:


> I guess I don't know what else to say other than 108 is a special number for a lot of reasons.


I don't doubt that it is, but I also think that a lot of the usage of numbers is merely "Easter Egg" type stuff. Putting in the numbers is like playing "Where's Waldo" or something. Kind of a fun little side game that the producers are playing. In some places it will make more sense, in others, much less. I just don't believe there is a connection in this particular case.


----------



## thwart

hefe said:


> I don't doubt that it is, but I also think that a lot of the usage of numbers is merely "Easter Egg" type stuff. Putting in the numbers is like playing "Where's Waldo" or something. Kind of a fun little side game that the producers are playing. In some places it will make more sense, in others, much less. I just don't believe there is a connection in this particular case.


You might be right.

Do you think it's plausible that the writers might add the event of the December 26, 2004 earthquake disaster into the story? That earthquake could be felt around the world. I wonder if the island is anywhere near Indonesia?


----------



## hefe

thwart said:


> You might be right.
> 
> Do you think it's plausible that the writers might add the event of the December 26, 2004 earthquake disaster into the story? That earthquake could be felt around the world. I wonder if the island is anywhere near Indonesia?


I thought about that since you mentioned it initially, but I would have to say that I don't think they will. Primarily because it was such a great human tragedy, I don't think they would want to risk the perception of trivializing the event by using it in the story. But I won't say it's impossible.


----------



## jradford

thwart said:


> Let's just say I have a hunch and leave it at that.


What is your hunch? I'd appreciate the presentation of it much more than being treated like a school boy who has to do his math tables before he gets a cookie.

Everyone loves throwing out theories, what is yours?


----------



## scotthemme

thwart said:


> They way the Lostees are looking at eachother makes me think that the plan is still on. I think Michael was looking at them in a way that made me think he is going through with the 'new' plan.


Oh, I don't doubt that the plan is still a go. But, when Jack told the group that he wouldn't have brought them out there without a plan, at that time Michael's boat was not part of the plan because Jack did not know about it. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## MickeS

thwart said:


> Exactly! Finally somebody gets it! 324 is not 325!


Wow, all of a sudden you make so much more sense! Just say what the hell you're getting at already. If anything.


----------



## unicorngoddess

I think factoring in the earth quake would be neat, but I also highly doubt they will. And not just because of the issue of sensitivity but more for the fact that, other than the finale, the writers don't seem to associate specific days to the storyline. We know Bernard forgot Rose's birthday, but they never said what day her birthday was on. The finale was the first time they told us a specific date and I think that was just one of those answers they throw out there that they promised to give us during the finale. I don't think we'll be seeing LOST: The Thanksgiving Special or A Very Merry LOST Christmas any time soon, so I don't think they will continue with letting us know specific dates in season 3.

I do also think there is a very specific plan going down. Whether or not it involves Michael is beyond me though. It's possible, Michael did give Jack a good long stare has he drove off in the boat. Whether that was a, "I'm sorry I had to do this to ya" look or a "I'll go get Sayid and we'll be back" look, I'm not sure. I'm looking forward to finding out though.


----------



## jkeegan

My turn to say it: stop feeding the trolls.


----------



## jimborst

jkeegan said:


> My turn to say it: stop feeding the trolls.


But if we keep it going we may close the thread with the 1000 post limit! Has that been done in the now playing section?


----------



## stevieleej

Hemi said:


> Michael & Walt will not be able to leave
> 
> Sayid will rescue Jack, Kate, Saywer & Hurly (possibly by sniper)
> 
> The Others are all ex-Dharma tyring to continue the "experiment" after Hanso cancelled it.


I agree Michael & Walt probably couldn't leave with that boat - maybe for the same reason Desmond couldn't get away from the island. Or, maybe because the Others only put a few gallons of fuel in it and they planned to pick it later with another boat.? Who says they would only have one?

Agree Sayid (& Jin) will be involved in some kind of rescue effort. Maybe even with Michael if me meets up with Sayid.

Not so sure about the others being ex-Dharma. If they've all deserted, why would Dharma continue with the food drops. It also means that they would be 'devoted' to the experiment. Now that the Losties are messed up the computers in the Swan, part of that experiment may be over.

New thought

It wouldn't take but a few minutes of dialog from the Others to have Jack, Kate, & Sawyer begin to see life from their side and begin working with them together as a team. "You see Jack, there is this group called Dharma who abandoned us to do experiments all here on this island, and we all need to work together to seek revenge...". I probably didn't state this weel but I could see it happening.


----------



## jkeegan

Yeah but we can do that easily without entertaining the few people who deliberately troll with things clearly designed to "get people going".

Ok, favorite Lost quotes up until now? How about that.
Here's mine:

"Hello."
"Hello."

(Locke and Eko's first words to each other).

And since I'm starting it, I'll do another (which I actually like far more than that one):

DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO!

1,000 here we come!


----------



## drew2k

jkeegan said:


> Yeah but we can do that easily without entertaining the few people who deliberately troll with things clearly designed to "get people going".
> 
> Ok, favorite Lost quotes up until now? How about that.
> Here's mine:
> 
> "Hello."
> "Hello."
> 
> (Locke and Eko's first words to each other).
> 
> And since I'm starting it, I'll do another (which I actually like far more than that one):
> 
> DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO!
> 
> 1,000 here we come!


Please remember to always quote the specific post you are replying to and not assume that your reply will automatically be posted immediately below the post you are replying to. I'm guessing you're replying to Post 882, but readers shouldn't have to guess that to make sense of your opening paragraph.

When numerous readers post messages at the same time, they will invariably be posted in an order you did not anticipate. Quoting the message you are replying to will ensure that your reply is viewed in the proper context and prevent a situation where we have non-sequitur replies.

Thank you for your support.


----------



## unicorngoddess

Favorite Lost quotes...

How about:

Do not mistake coincidence for fate. 

Or pretty much any other words that have come out of Eko's mouth.


----------



## drew2k

"Dude! That's gotta hurt." -- Hurley


----------



## jimborst

Quote (or close to it) "Dude, you got some Artz on you"-Hurley


----------



## mqpickles

jkeegan said:


> My turn to say it: stop feeding the trolls.


I think along with the 325 stuff (which I still don't get), Thwart has raised some interesting questions, such as:

-- Is Michael now working with Jack et al.? I don't know, but as others have mentioned, there was an interesting exchange of glances. Personally, I doubt Michael had a big revelation that has made him less selfish, but it's possible.

-- Will the 12/26/04 earthquake be shown? If it is, the writers will have to tread very lightly. After all, just having a character say "Let's roll" was pretty controversial around here.


----------



## mqpickles

Hurley: "Dude, you look goth."

There, that ought to get us closer to 1000.


----------



## hefe

Voice on radio:"_We're_ the survivors of flight 815..."


----------



## ReenieS

appleye1 said:


> Me too! I was fast-forwarding and hit the Bad Robot before I realized it was part of the show.
> 
> Wow, I watched both seasons of Carnivale and it never occured to me he was one who played the Kurgan.  He was great in that role. Plays the real evil bad guy well.


Don't forget-- he also played the nasty Head Prison Guard in "Shawshank Redemption"

and

Career Sergeant Zim in "Starship Troopers"

and

and Mr. Eugene H. Krabs in "Spongebob Squarepants"

hehehe

I kid you not...he is a real cartoon voiceover guy-- check out his bio on www.imdb.com!


----------



## nKhona

mqpickles said:


> Hurley: "Dude, you look goth."
> 
> There, that ought to get us closer to 1000.





hefe said:


> Voice on radio:"We're the survivors of flight 815..."


Multiple thunder-points...split them between you two.


----------



## unicorngoddess

Guys...where _are_ we??? (Charlie)
<LOST>


----------



## JYoung

ReenieS said:


> I kid you not...he is a real cartoon voiceover guy-- check out his bio on www.imdb.com!


Lex Luthor in Superman and Justice League.

And Mr. Freeze in The Batman.


----------



## Mike Farrington

There's a 1,000 post/thread limit??


----------



## hefe

Yes. Whoever makes the 1,000th post in a thread gets a temporary ban.


----------



## mqpickles

hefe said:


> Yes. Whoever makes the 1,000th post in a thread gets a temporary ban.


The person who makes the 1,000th post should get to pick _someone else_ to temporarily ban.


----------



## getreal

ReenieS said:


> Don't forget-- he also played the nasty Head Prison Guard in "Shawshank Redemption" ...


Who are you guys talking about?? I'm Lost.


----------



## thwart

hefe said:


> Yes. Whoever makes the 1,000th post in a thread gets a temporary ban.


Okay, wait. Did someone just call me a troll?

I think I'm offended. I'm one of the good guys.


----------



## thwart

getreal said:


> Who are you guys talking about?? I'm Lost.


 You know... The bad guy in the first Highlander movie.


----------



## jkeegan

drew2k said:


> Please remember to always quote the specific post you are replying to and not assume that your reply will automatically be posted immediately below the post you are replying to. I'm guessing you're replying to Post 882, but readers shouldn't have to guess that to make sense of your opening paragraph.
> 
> When numerous readers post messages at the same time, they will invariably be posted in an order you did not anticipate. Quoting the message you are replying to will ensure that your reply is viewed in the proper context and prevent a situation where we have non-sequitur replies.
> 
> Thank you for your support.






mqpickles said:


> Hurley: "Dude, you look goth."
> 
> There, that ought to get us closer to 1000.






hefe said:


> Voice on radio:"_We're_ the survivors of flight 815..."






unicorngoddess said:


> Guys...where _are_ we??? (Charlie)
> <LOST>






thwart said:


> Okay, wait. Did someone just call me a troll?
> 
> I think I'm offended. I'm one of the good guys.


----------



## jkeegan

from memory, so possibly not exact:

Walt (behind Locke, who's at a backgammon board): Is it like checkers?

Locke: No, it's a much better game than.. (pause) checkers.


----------



## drew2k

thwart said:


> I think I'm offended. I'm one of the good guys.


 Fake Henry!?! Is that you?!? When did you leave the island and start posting here?


----------



## wprager

JACK: When I need the guns, I'll get the guns. (Lockdown)

And from earlier in the same episode (Jack and Sawyer playing poker):
KATE: Should I go and get a ruler? (Lockdown)

That whole "I never" exchange in Outlaws. Too long to quote the whole thing, but here's just one:
KATE: I never implied that I've been to college when I never have. (Outlaws)


----------



## Delta13

There are 2 reasons I can see that they will not show the 12/6/04 earthquake. First, sensitivity plus as mentioned building it into a storyline. Second, the tsunami went the other direction, striking in the Indian Ocean and to the west. It never made the Pacific.

Sure, they could be shown feeling the earthquake but at this moment in time I don't know what the gain would be. The earthquake zone didn't extend that far to the east, anyway. You can only make this so realistic - these people don't exist, and no large plane crashed in the Pacific on September 22, 2004. 

Oops - now I've let the cat out of the bag. Maybe that last sentence should have been in spoilers ...


----------



## mqpickles

Desmond: "We're in a bloody snowglobe!"

Hurley: "But if you had had time to think about it, you still would have killed her, right?" (In response to Michael saying shooting Libby was a mistake and he hadn't had time to think before doing it.)


----------



## greg_burns

LOCKE: I was wrong.


----------



## hanumang

_Thats French! The French are coming! Ive never been so happy to hear the French!_

- Charlie (from "Pilot, Part 2")


----------



## MickeS

From S02E13, "The Long Con":

RADIO [with spotty reception]: That was the old classic Just A-Sittin' and A-Rockin' by Duke Ellington and his Orchestra, featuring Cootie Williams on the trumpet. Up next on WXR, the Glenn Miller Orchestra with Moonlight Serenade.
[The song begins to play with good reception.]

HURLEY: Whoa, you hear how clear that is? It's got to be close, right?

SAYID: Radio waves at this frequency bounce off the ionosphere. They can travel thousands of miles. It could be coming from anywhere.

HURLEY: Or, anytime. Just kidding, dude.


----------



## getbak

JACK: That's why the Sox will never win the series.


----------



## Delta13

Oceanic Counter Clerk to Hurley: "This must be your lucky day."


----------



## thwart

[Noises coming from the fuselage]

Jack: "Where's Sawyer?"

Sawyer: "Right behind you, JACKASS."

Best line from the show hands down.


----------



## thwart

Did anyone else get a bunch of popup windows when you were playing in one of the 'Hanso' websites? I think it was the career one. I hope Lost isn't gonna get political. 

Some threads (I think on the Fuselage site) mention the fear that Lost could turn into a Scientology scam because J.J. worked with Tom on MI3.


----------



## gchance

You guys keep forgetting the most important one:

Move 'em on, head 'em up, 
Head 'em up, move 'em out, 
Move 'em on, head 'em out Rawhide! 
Set 'em out, ride 'em in 
Ride 'em in, let 'em out, 
Cut 'em out, ride 'em in Rawhide.










Greg


----------



## gchance

Oh I can't help myself. Here's another. "Throw the harpoon." People are gonna come from all around.


----------



## thwart

I'm not convinced that the magnet is the only reason that these particular people ended up on the island. The magnet might be what made the plane crash, but I think there is something special about some of the people on the plane that put their plane over the magnet. The characters seem too intertwinded.

Were the pilots directed to go to a different airport or were they forced to figure out a new destination on there own? What events happened that made the pilots change course?

Was Hanso using the Dharma project to try and create a artificial healing energy using the electro-magnet? Or is that just a cover.

I think Fenry honestly thinks his people are the good guys. I think they are being "played" just like the lostees seem to be "played". Perhaps the others are in the second or third stage of the "game". The lostees may have crashed into the game and might even be discovering the stages of the game in the wrong order. Do the "good guys" (the others) consider the lostees as "bad guys" or perhaps as "neutrals"? Are they trying bring fresh, qualifying good guys onto the team? Are all children considered possible "good guys".

So, going on this theory, that would require a third party, at a higher scope, that is "managing game." 

Where did the boat that Fenry, Walt, and the skipper (Fenry didn't drive the boat -- he was looking down at Walt when they pulled up to the dock) come from? Will another boat be showing up soon to bring the good guys and the lostees to the good guys' home? Or is their home on the island?

When they abducted Walt what were they really doing? I think they were looking for Walt as we know that they were looking for "the boy" earlier on (I don't think they meant the new born baby). But they could have been patrolling. Or perhaps just going to or from home.

Or maybe (here's a leap for you)

The island is like a run-time that can be used to test a pool of Artificially Intelligent Instances that have been brewing slowly over a long period of time in a separate simulated environment. The island is like a test bench. The goal is to find "good guys" that won't try to kill off the human race. Maybe the real Henry knew that and was trying to use his emoticon balloon to contact the people in charge of the system. Fenry doesn't believe that GOD can see "this place." But maybe the real Henry does.

Wow! That does sound crazy. Where are my meds? I gotta go! It's time for Wapner!


----------



## cherry ghost

thwart said:


> Will another boat be showing up soon to bring the good guys and the lostees to the good guys' home? Or is their home on the island?


submarine


----------



## thenightfly42

Delta13 said:


> Second, the tsunami went the other direction, striking in the Indian Ocean and to the west. It never made the Pacific.


That's not entirely accurate, but for their purposes, probably close enough. Check out this PDF of Maximum Computed Tsunami Heights around the Globe; the island is probably over in the 2 foot surge area.

And for favorite quotes, I'll go with:


Episode 201: Man of Science said:


> Hurley: What's that thing where doctors make you feel better just by talking to you?
> 
> Jack: Bedside manner.
> 
> Hurley: Yeah, that. Yours sucks, dude.


----------



## hefe

thwart said:


> Some threads (I think on the Fuselage site) mention the fear that Lost could turn into a Scientology scam because J.J. worked with Tom on MI3.


I wouldn't worry about it. I think Lindeloff, Cuse and Burk have more to do with the story at this point anyway.

To suggest that working with Cruise will cause anything of the sort is so ridiculous, it honestly doesn't even deserve to be repeated.

I'd love to spring for a tin foil hat if you'd agree to sit for a fitting...


----------



## gchance

hefe said:


> I wouldn't worry about it. I think Lindeloff, Cuse and Burk have more to do with the story at this point anyway.
> 
> To suggest that working with Cruise will cause anything of the sort is so ridiculous, it honestly doesn't even deserve to be repeated.
> 
> I'd love to spring for a tin foil hat if you'd agree to sit for a fitting...


Not to mention, scientology or no, if it's an interesting story, does it matter?

Greg


----------



## mqpickles

gchance said:


> Not to mention, scientology or no, if it's an interesting story, does it matter?
> 
> Greg


In light of Battlefield Earth, I don't have a lot of confidence in Scientology based entertainment.


----------



## Delta13

thenightfly42 said:


> That's not entirely accurate, but for their purposes, probably close enough. Check out this PDF of Maximum Computed Tsunami Heights around the Globe; the island is probably over in the 2 foot surge area.


Actually, that map is in centimeters not feet. Everywhere east of Australia shows less than a 2 centimeter change.



hefe said:


> I'd love to spring for a tin foil hat if you'd agree to sit for a fitting...


Tinfoil Hats


----------



## thenightfly42

Delta13 said:


> Actually, that map is in centimeters not feet. Everywhere east of Australia shows less than a 2 centimeter change.


D'oh! Me and my America-centric measurement systems...


----------



## audioscience

thwart said:


> Did anyone else get a bunch of popup windows when you were playing in one of the 'Hanso' websites? I think it was the career one. I hope Lost isn't gonna get political.


I think one of the Hanso websites was sponsored by Monster.com so that would be right.

I don't know how that makes it political though.


----------



## drew2k

mqpickles said:


> In light of Battlefield Earth, I don't have a lot of confidence in Scientology based entertainment.


I hope you are referring only to the movie, which sucked a$$, and not the book.

The book was such a fun read, with lots of adventure and quite a bit of satire. It's long at over 900 pages, but to me, well worth the time spent reading it.

If you like Sci-Fi, try the book, but just forget about ANYTHING you have heard or seen in that Travolta travesty of a vanity project that made it to the big screen.

_P.S. I am not a Scientologist, nor do I play one on TV._


----------



## greg_burns

If you liked Battlefield Earth the book, you'll love Mission Earth the decology. 900 pages ain't nothing. :up:


----------



## avery

I can't recall whether the possibility of Harold Perrineau [Michael] NOT returning has been mentioned or might be news to some [I've only caught a few items that put it in the _maybe_ category]... but I read an interview with him in the newspaper today and this is the essence of what he said...



Spoiler



He is no longer under contract with "Lost" - producers told him weeks ago that Michael was being written off the show and explained "how cool it was for someone to actually get off the island." [!?] He didn't discount the possibility of his character returning but did say that "I am not back next season... and I may not ever be back." Also, he said that even he was confused by the ambiguity in the parting shot of Michael and Walt leaving the island... according to him, the script was "very clear" and left no doubt about them going home.



There you have it.

oops!... sorry about that.


----------



## drew2k

greg_burns said:


> If you liked Battlefield Earth the book, you'll love Mission Earth the decology. 900 pages ain't nothing. :up:


I actually own that series (hardcover even), and have read it several times, but I did not enjoy it as much as Battlefield Earth.

Now, to keep this on topic:

Kate to Sawyer: Come on. You're going to see Jack.
Sawyer: Do I get a lollipop?


----------



## hefe

avery said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I can't recall whether the possibility of Harold Perrineau [Michael] NOT returning has been mentioned or might be news to some [I've only caught a few items that put it in the _maybe_ category]... but I read an interview with him in the newspaper today and this is the essence of what he said...
> 
> He is no longer under contract with "Lost" - producers told him weeks ago that Michael was being written off the show and explained "how cool it was for someone to actually get off the island." [!?] He didn't discount the possibility of his character returning but did say that "I am not back next season... and I may not ever be back." Also, he said that even he was confused by the ambiguity in the parting shot of Michael and Walt leaving the island... according to him, the script was "very clear" and left no doubt about them going home.
> 
> There you have it.


Avery, you're new I see. You may want to learn about spoiler tags. They're all the rage here.


----------



## drew2k

avery said:


> I can't recall whether the possibility of Harold Perrineau [Michael] NOT returning has been mentioned or might be news to some [I've only caught a few items that put it in the _maybe_ category]... but I read an interview with him in the newspaper today and this is the essence of what he said...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> He is no longer under contract with "Lost" - producers told him weeks ago that Michael was being written off the show and explained "how cool it was for someone to actually get off the island." [!?] He didn't discount the possibility of his character returning but did say that "I am not back next season... and I may not ever be back." Also, he said that even he was confused by the ambiguity in the parting shot of Michael and Walt leaving the island... according to him, the script was "very clear" and left no doubt about them going home.
> 
> 
> There you have it.


Avery, thanks for posting this info, but you should edit your post to add spoiler tags around the same part I did, as you are revealing information not presented during the finale of Lost. Some people may, sorry, *will* get quite upset for posts like this.

(To add a spoiler tag, type the word "spoiler" between brackets, [spoiler ], before the first part of the text to hide. Then type [/spoiler ] at the end. In both cases, take out the spaces before the closing bracket.)

Edited-to-add: Hefe beat me to it!


----------



## mqpickles

drew2k said:


> I hope you are referring only to the movie, which sucked a$$, and not the book.
> 
> The book was such a fun read, with lots of adventure and quite a bit of satire. It's long at over 900 pages, but to me, well worth the time spent reading it.
> 
> If you like Sci-Fi, try the book, but just forget about ANYTHING you have heard or seen in that Travolta travesty of a vanity project that made it to the big screen.
> 
> _P.S. I am not a Scientologist, nor do I play one on TV._


Yes, I was only referring to the movie.

I don't count books as entertainment. j/k Actually, I have not and probably will not read the book (not a big sci fi fan), but I have heard good things.


----------



## astrohip

thwart said:


> I guess you're too lazy to play with the numbers. Surely, there must be someone here who likes math like me.


I was a math major many decades ago, so you picked the wrong guy to debate with  

You clearly didn't understand my post. I never made any reference to not wanting to play with numbers. What you had done was add some of the magic LOST numbers together, and then comment on how they were *close* to some other magic numbers. I responded by saying we have plenty of *real *number juggling going on already, and we didn't need to look at numbers that were just close to each other.

If you add the LOST numbers together, and multiply by three (why 3?), the result is only one away from the compass setting Michael should follow. Huh? I still stand by my original post.


----------



## thwart

I just noticed something while watching tonight's repeat, "Adrift", that you guys will probably consider small or not a big deal. The room (in the hatch) that Locke pushes Kate into (when Desmond orders him to) contains the exact same floor as the room in the shack that the two guys were in, in the frozen tundra, at the end of the finale. The guys that called Pen when they found the electo-magnetic anomoly.

Some of you might suggest that this is just set design. You may be right. But I remember finding the floor interesting when I saw it for the first time during the finale. The camera seems to want to make sure that we notice it or something on it (like the space heater). The floor is made up of tiles, each tile has 64 circles (holes) in them. 8 rows, 8 columns. Reminded me of Connect Four and 8 is one of those crazy numbers. 8

I'm posting it as it might be important in the future. Kate or one of the other lostees might recognize it the floor in the future. It could mean that the guys on the boat are not really outside the "snow globe" (or as I call it the system). Even Penelope could be inside the system. Perhaps the island is a system with in a system.

It's public knowledge that the creators are making a video game for Lost. I originally thought they were talking about the internet game. Perhaps the game will actually be a simulation like I talked about in a previous post on this thread. The game will let us control avatars in the system, including the island (the system in the system). Perhaps it will be an MMO game.

Or perhaps pigs might crawl out of the center of Uranus.

Either way -- cool!


----------



## hefe

thwart said:


> I just noticed something while watching tonight's repeat that you guys will probably consider small or not a big deal. The room that Locke pushes Kate into (when Desmond orders him to) contains the exact same floor as the room in the shack that the two guys were in, in the frozen tundra, at the end of the finale. The guys that called Pen when they found the electo-magnetic anomoly.
> 
> Some of you might suggest that this is just set design. You may be right. But I remember finding the floor interesting when I saw it for the first time during the finale. The camera seems to want to make sure that we notice it or something on it (like the space heater). The floor is made up of tiles, each tile has 64 circles (holes) in them. 8 rows, 8 columns. Reminded me of Connect Four and 8 is one of those crazy numbers. 8
> 
> I'm posting it as it might be important in the future. Kate or one of the other lostees might recognize it the floor in the future. It could mean that the guys on the boat are not really outside the "snow globe" (or as I call it the system). Even Penelope could be inside the system. Perhaps the island is a system with in a system.


Hey, I'm all for noticing commonalities and coincidences, I've done it myself...
http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3298657&&#post3298657
So when I tell you it's nothing, you have to believe me.


----------



## thwart

hefe said:


> Hey, I'm all for noticing commonalities and coincidences, I've done it myself...
> http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3298657&&#post3298657
> So when I tell you it's nothing, you have to believe me.


Okay. I believe you.


----------



## thwart

I still think the whole thing is a computer simulation within a computer simulation. I realize that I am out on a limb when I say I think Henry Gale's balloon could be an emoticon, but who flies around in a balloon with a big smiley face on it? 

That big white light with the ominous sound in the sky sure doesn't seem very possible in the real world. Perhaps that was a side effect of a sub system reinitialisation. Perhaps the hatch will be fixed the next time we see it.

I think Engineers have created a system to birth and brew an artificially intelligent race of avatars that live inside the system. At a certain point the engineers pick out good prospects to "drop" into a different system that acts like a test bed to see how they will react. I think the two systems are connected.

The idea here is to bring these avatars into the real world (outside both systems -- into the engineers' world) to interact with them and help them and not kill them.


----------



## thwart

One thing has puzzled me since the very first episode. How did Jack wind up fairly deep into the jungle after the crash? When he is still on his back, looking up at the sky, you can tell that he is completely surrounded by trees. It's not like he fell out of the plane as it was sliding through the jungle. And to fall from a height higher than the trees would be deadly.


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## Fish Man

hefe said:


> Hey, I'm all for noticing commonalities and coincidences, I've done it myself...
> http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3298657&&#post3298657
> So when I tell you it's nothing, you have to believe me.


While it's budget is relatively high (the budget for the Lost pilot episode was the highest in television history, but the per-episode budget, while high-ish, doesn't break records), they do face certain restrictions.

Lost has exactly one soundstage to work with, and it's smaller than typical Hollywood soundstages. It is in the old Xerox building in Honolulu. (Trivia: this is the same Xerox building where an employee went postal a few years back and shot a bunch of co-workers.) They are so constrained for soundstage space, that they had to strike the "cave" set in order to build the "hatch" set. They did not have room to keep them both standing, and didn't have time to swap them back and forth.

I'd assume that they have a small corner of the soundstage set aside for sets used in one or two episodes. As a result, you'll see different pieces (floors, walls) used over and over, and indeed, it means nothing.

It is also clear that, in part due to the restrictive soundstage space, they do a lot of location shooting. Locations in Honolulu have stood in for locations in Los Angeles, Sidney, New York, and many other worldwide locations.

It wouldn't surprise me if that conference room hefe posted pictures of is the conference room in Lost's own production offices in Honolulu! 

They use whatever locations look right to tell the story!


----------



## mqpickles

Fish Man said:


> While it's budget...


[jkeegan] Should be "While its budget"[/jkeegan]


----------



## unicorngoddess

thwart said:


> One thing has puzzled me since the very first episode. How did Jack wind up fairly deep into the jungle after the crash? When he is still on his back, looking up at the sky, you can tell that he is completely surrounded by trees. It's not like he fell out of the plane as it was sliding through the jungle. And to fall from a height higher than the trees would be deadly.


While all your other posts with all the numbers and stuff hurt my head, this one I agree with. I always thought it very odd that Jack ended up way out there all alone and Rose, who was sitting next to him on the plane, was way back at the beach and unconcious.

And back to the quotes, I also love this scene from 23rd Pslam:

Eko: 50.
Man: 50 what?
Eko: 50 is what I will pay you for the favor you want from me.

Eko's probably not the kind of guy you'd want to try to bargain with either.


----------



## Rosincrans

Fish Man said:


> They are so constrained for soundstage space, that they had to strike the "cave" set in order to build the "hatch" set. They did not have room to keep them both standing, and didn't have time to swap them back and forth.


I was just wondering the other day whatever happened to the cave.



unicorngoddess said:


> I always thought it very odd that Jack ended up way out there all alone and Rose, who was sitting next to him on the plane, was way back at the beach and unconcious.


I always figured he wandered there in a semi delirious state and passed out for a second.


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## nedthelab

thwart said:


> I still think the whole thing is a computer simulation within a computer simulation. I realize that I am out on a limb when I say I think Henry Gale's balloon could be an emoticon, but who flies around in a balloon with a big smiley face on it?


Just afterthe first Matrix movie there was a movie called the 13th floor, that very premise, computer reality within one....terrible flick


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## markb

Fish Man said:


> Lost has exactly one soundstage to work with, and it's smaller than typical Hollywood soundstages. It is in the old Xerox building in Honolulu. (Trivia: this is the same Xerox building where an employee went postal a few years back and shot a bunch of co-workers.) They are so constrained for soundstage space, that they had to strike the "cave" set in order to build the "hatch" set. They did not have room to keep them both standing, and didn't have time to swap them back and forth.


From the official podcast on May 19, the cave set was at the Xerox building, but the hatch set is on a different soundstage (the Diamondhead stage). (19:50 into the podcast.) Though I suppose it could have been originally at the Xerox building and then later moved.


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## DCIFRTHS

avery said:


> I can't recall whether the possibility of Harold Perrineau [Michael] NOT returning has been mentioned or might be news to some [I've only caught a few items that put it in the _maybe_ category]... but I read an interview with him in the newspaper today and this is the essence of what he said...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> He is no longer under contract with "Lost" - producers told him weeks ago that Michael was being written off the show and explained "how cool it was for someone to actually get off the island." [!?] He didn't discount the possibility of his character returning but did say that "I am not back next season... and I may not ever be back." Also, he said that even he was confused by the ambiguity in the parting shot of Michael and Walt leaving the island... according to him, the script was "very clear" and left no doubt about them going home.
> 
> 
> 
> There you have it.
> 
> oops!... sorry about that.


OK. My opinion on this...



Spoiler



Even though Michael may no longer be under contract, he obviously has no respect for the fans, or the show, to make a definitive statement that he won't be back next season. He could have kept in the spirit of things, and said he wasn't sure. Who knows, maybe he has an axe to grind...


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## thwart

DCIFRTHS said:


> OK. My opinion on this...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Even though Michael may no longer be under contract, he obviously has no respect for the fans, or the show, to make a definitive statement that he won't be back next season. He could have kept in the spirit of things, and said he wasn't sure. Who knows, maybe he has an axe to grind...





Spoiler



He'll be back. We're not done with the Walt story yet. He's probably messing with you guys.


----------



## unicorngoddess

I have to wonder...with the hatch destroyed now, will we go back to seeing the caves???


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## jradford

thwart said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> He'll be back. We're not done with the Walt story yet. He's probably messing with you guys.


My thought on this:



Spoiler



You've asked us to make 324=325 to help your theory, (still waiting for the "theory", really) so I guess it's not too much to ask to just assume that Perrineau is lying.


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## jkeegan

mqpickles said:


> [jkeegan] Should be "While its budget"[/jkeegan]


----------



## jkeegan

nedthelab said:


> Just afterthe first Matrix movie there was a movie called the 13th floor, that very premise, computer reality within one....terrible flick


Oh I totally disagree - I really liked The Thirteenth Floor.


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## wprager

... 48

Anyone see the 4 minute previoew for "Heroes" on NBC? I got the distrinct impression from the cast and one of the promo shots that they were going for a Lost cast look, but slightly younger. 

P.S. We can quickly get to 1000 if I am allowed to post all my internet grammar/spelling nit-picks


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## hefe

wprager said:


> P.S. We can quickly get to 1000 if I am allowed to post all my internet grammar/spelling nit-picks


I hate to nitpick, but Merriam-Webster says it's _nitpick_.


----------



## thwart

jkeegan said:


> Oh I totally disagree - I really liked The Thirteenth Floor.


The Thirteenth Floor was a world within a world within a world movie. It went three worlds deep.

Lost is going for 41 worlds deep. Which is really close to the number 42. 

Actually, as everyone knows 42 is the meaning of life.


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## wprager

hefe said:


> I hate to nitpick, but Merriam-Webster says it's _nitpick_.


...45 (shh, no-one saw that edit)

LOL - Serves me right! Now, did you _know_ this off-hand (or is that offhand?) or did you look it up on a whim?

I'm still waiting to hear from anyone if they'd seen the "Heroes" preview.


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## madscientist

wprager said:


> I'm still waiting to hear from anyone if they'd seen the "Heroes" preview.


Tried to watch it but it didn't like my Linux box :down:


----------



## thwart

madscientist said:


> Tried to watch it but it didn't like my Linux box :down:


vi rules!!! I write all my code with vi.


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## hefe

wprager said:


> ...45 (shh, no-one saw that edit)
> 
> LOL - Serves me right! Now, did you _know_ this off-hand (or is that offhand?) or did you look it up on a whim?


I had a hunch and looked it up. Of course, I wouldn't let the truth stand in the way of a joke, so I probably would have said it anyway.


----------



## Fish Man

markb said:


> From the official podcast on May 19, the cave set was at the Xerox building, but the hatch set is on a different soundstage (the Diamondhead stage). (19:50 into the podcast.) Though I suppose it could have been originally at the Xerox building and then later moved.


Interesting.

My info was from a podcast early in the season (Octoberish).

It would be good news if they've obtained more square footage of soundstage space. :up:


----------



## avery

> Originally Posted by *wprager*
> _I'm still waiting to hear from anyone if they'd seen the "Heroes" preview._Saw the _Heroes_ preview... yes, a Lost"esque" multi-ethnic cast, right down to the Japanese subtitles. Themes seem more a cross between _The 4400_ and several _Twilight Zone_ storylines. Looks interesting, but hard to tell at this point from such a small sampling.


----------



## Rosincrans

I may be smeeking here, but here are my thoughts on the Finale:

How do we know that Elizabeth is the same person as Libby?

Did anyone notice that one of the guys in the Arctic station looked an awful lot like Mathew Fox?

And did you notice that one of the Others grabbed Kate's boobs?

Why was Charlie acting so strange?

Also, if you add 108 + 108 + 108 it adds up to 324 which is very close to 325 - the course Michael was told to follow. Interesting...


----------



## wprager

Rosincrans said:


> I may be smeeking here, but here are my thoughts on the Finale:


After 960 posts? Nah! 

I'm surprised, though, that you didn't notice Mr. Friendly's beard being a lot longer than the one Kate found

(I hope I didn't just feed a troll.)

...38


----------



## Rosincrans

wprager said:


> After 960 posts? Nah!
> I'm surprised, though, that you didn't notice Mr. Friendly's beard being a lot longer than the one Kate found
> ...38


Damn, I forgot that one.


----------



## hefe

Rosincrans said:


> I may be smeeking here, ...


Yes, guilty of smeeking on all counts.


----------



## NoThru22

Rosincrans said:


> I may be smeeking here, but here are my thoughts on the Finale:
> 
> How do we know that Elizabeth is the same person as Libby?
> 
> Did anyone notice that one of the guys in the Arctic station looked an awful lot like Mathew Fox?
> 
> And did you notice that one of the Others grabbed Kate's boobs?
> 
> Why was Charlie acting so strange?
> 
> Also, if you add 108 + 108 + 108 it adds up to 324 which is very close to 325 - the course Michael was told to follow. Interesting...


I thought this was serious and was about to go ballastic.


----------



## jkeegan

NoThru22 said:


> I thought this was serious and was about to go ballastic.


The 108+108+108 part confirmed the smile that was already on my face. Too funny.


----------



## madscientist

thwart said:


> vi rules!!! I write all my code with vi.


Emacs myself. But neither of them worked to watch the Heroes clip


----------



## wprager

madscientist said:


> Emacs myself. But neither of them worked to watch the Heroes clip


How long before someone figures out how to auto-start a video player inside a Gvim window when you open a .mpg or .avi file? That is, assuming it has not already been done.

... 32


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

wprager said:


> How long before someone figures out how to auto-start a video player inside a Gvim window when you open a .mpg or .avi file? That is, assuming it has not already been done.


How about just from the command line (well, on Mac OS X, anywho.)


----------



## jfjellstad

wprager said:


> ... 48
> 
> Anyone see the 4 minute previoew for "Heroes" on NBC? I got the distrinct impression from the cast and one of the promo shots that they were going for a Lost cast look, but slightly younger.
> 
> P.S. We can quickly get to 1000 if I am allowed to post all my internet grammar/spelling nit-picks


Yes! Adrian Pasdar is back on TV (now, if we could only get Profit back too).


----------



## thwart

jfjellstad said:


> Yes! Adrian Pasdar is back on TV (now, if we could only get Profit back too).


I can't remember if anyone posted a link to the Heroes preview and so here's one:
http://www.nbc.com/NBC_First_Look/Heroes/
On the web page there is a link to start up the video of the preview.

One thing that I noticed was that J.J. Abrams best friend is seen early in the preview. He appears in everything that J.J. does. Not that he needs J.J. to get on a show, he seems like a good actor, but is J.J. affiliated with the show? If so, I wonder how that would sit with ABC?

The show does look good. I didn't get any "Lost" vibes from the Heroes preview though.


----------



## thwart

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> How about just from the command line (well, on Mac OS X, anywho.)


I've been a pc user since the beginning, but I have to say, that I respect what Apple has done with it's product line over the past few years. I like the fact that OS X sits on top of a Unix variant. Or is it based on Unix? I can't remember. The Mac Mini is awesome! We have one at work so that our web content creators can test our web site using various browsers. I thought about getting one for our kitchen because the mini is so eye-pleasing and small. Add an LCD, a tiny keyboard, and mouse and it's perfect for that room. Plus the Mac Mini is only $599.


----------



## wprager

thwart said:


> I didn't get any "Lost" vibes from the Heroes preview though.


I never meant to imply that. There seem to be parallels with The 4400 (which I have not seen, but am expecting the Season One DVDs to arrive tomorrow). Where I noticed the similarity is in the make up of the cast; also, the publicity photo of the entire cast in a wide-shot, against a dark-cloud sky background reminded me of the Lost Season One DVD cover.

Feel free to make your own comparisons:

Lost
Heroes

...26


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## unicorngoddess

I love The 4400 (season 3 premires TONIGHT!) 

I didn't pick it up until the beginning of season 2 though when someone told me, "If you like LOST, you'll probably like The 4400" And it was true, I did.

...25 (which ironicly enough is how old I am...I wonder if that means anything...)


----------



## astrohip

unicorngoddess said:


> I love The 4400 (season 3 premires TONIGHT!)


So does Deadwood & Entourage. Sunday nights are back 

24


----------



## unicorngoddess

Remind me, in my next post, to ponder upon the meaning of my 108th post 

23...hmmm, 23....


----------



## wprager

unicorngoddess said:


> I love The 4400 (season 3 premires TONIGHT!)
> 
> I didn't pick it up until the beginning of season 2 though when someone told me, "If you like LOST, you'll probably like The 4400" And it was true, I did.
> 
> ...25 (which ironicly enough is how old I am...I wonder if that means anything...)


I should get The 4400 season 1 DVD from Amazon tomorrow. Season 2 started running last week on Space (over here, in Canada, Space is not running season 3 until the Fall, or so the rumours say). Maybe I _can_ las the whole summer without Lost.

...22

(I see the countdown finally caught on.)


----------



## thenightfly42

wprager said:


> After 960 posts? Nah!
> 
> I'm surprised, though, that you didn't notice Mr. Friendly's beard being a lot longer than the one Kate found
> 
> (I hope I didn't just feed a troll.)
> 
> ...38


----------



## thwart

4400 does look good. Need to start Tivoing it. Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## tubsone

There is still talk going on in here!!!!.....almost 3 weeks later! You guys must be LOST in here  !


----------



## mqpickles

tubsone said:


> There is still talk going on in here!!!!.....almost 3 weeks later! You guys must be LOST in here  !


It's only 2 weeks, isn't it?

...17


----------



## Dromomaniac

I may be smeeking, but has anyone noticed these numbers keep getting mentioned?

4 8 15 *16* 23 42


----------



## Bierboy

Dromomaniac said:


> I may be smeeking, but has anyone noticed these numbers keep getting mentioned?
> 
> 4 8 15 *16* 23 42


In 14 minutes, it will be 7-*15* p.m. CST.


----------



## wprager

Bierboy said:


> In 14 minutes, it will be 7-*15* p.m. CST.


Really, only _*14*_???!


----------



## Bierboy

wprager said:


> Really, only _*14*_???!


And tomorrow is June *13*.


----------



## jkeegan

Are threads really _locked_ at 1000? If so, hey, enjoy the summer Lost fans - see you in September..

11 is prime, ya know..


----------



## rhuntington3

Yup, check out Happy Hour and The Fun House. Maybe they'll let other sub-fora's slide but I wouldn't bet on it.


----------



## stalemate

rhuntington3 said:


> Yup, check out Happy Hour and The Fun House. Maybe they'll let other sub-fora's slide but I wouldn't bet on it.


  I don't get it. You mean to check out the numerous threads with > 1000 replies?

Or were you joking?


----------



## JYoung

no he's not kidding.

It's now routine to lock threads once they hit 1000 posts


----------



## rhuntington3

Nope, not joking. The abount of CPU and disk I/O is too much for threads that go over 1000 posts. So when 1000 posts is reached, the tread is locked. Its manually done so it may not happen right at 1000 posts.


----------



## drew2k

Well, gang, let's get it done.

6 ...

P.S. The Lost Season 2 DVD Box Set will be released October 3rd. ($38.99 at Costco.)


----------



## stalemate

OK, so are the posts with more than 1000 in Happy Hour and The Fun House exceptions to the rule?


----------



## Dromomaniac

I figured it out! I solved the Lost mystery!

OK the solution is a little complex... but I'll explain it all in just a few posts.

Trust me, you'll be amazed...


----------



## stalemate

Maxnl said:


> Some *1* else would know!


Guess I'll never know...


----------



## hanumang

"I was wrong."


----------



## Rosincrans

jkeegan said:


> Ok, no one else created it, so here's the official thread..
> ]


We need a final post from jkeegan before they shut this down. His thoughts about the thread, chance to thank the little people, etc.


----------



## jkeegan

ibtl

What an amazing second season.. jkeegan is one happy viewer indeed.

I think I'll go listen to some Mama Cass..



Nobody can tell ya,
Theres only one song worth singin,
They may try and sell ya,
As it hangs them up to see
someone like you

But you've gotta make your own kind of music
sing your own special song,
make your own kind of music even if nobody
else sings along.

You're gonna be knowin
the loneliest kind of lonely.
It may be rough goin',
just to do your thing's
the hardest thing to do.

But you've gotta make your own kind of music
sing your own special song,
make your own kind of music even if nobody
else sings along.

So if you cannot take my hand,
and if you must be goin',
I will understand.

You gotta make your own kind of music
sing your own special song,
make your own kind of music even if nobody
else sings along.

You gotta make your own kind of music
sing your own special song,
make your own kind of music even if nobody
else sings along.


(and, don't tell me what I can't do!!!)


----------



## drew2k

OK - 'fess up! Who went and pruned the tree?! (We were over 1,000 last night but there are a few less posts in this thread today!)

Now I have nothing to do here but wait for the DVD box set in October.

Back to the drawing board ...


----------



## astrohip

drew2k said:


> OK - 'fess up! Who went and pruned the tree?! (We were over 1,000 last night but there are a few less posts in this thread today!)


If you were the magic 1000th post, would you change your handle to drew1k  ?

3 2 1 ....


----------



## Bierboy

I'm goin' for 999...


----------



## Bierboy

...and BINGO!!!!


----------



## thenightfly42

And here's the test in the brand new world of +1000.

Tastes the same as before. I never thought the countdown meant anything either.


----------

