# Best diagnostic steps



## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

This morning, my Roamio Pro rebooted during the "Warming up...." screen. Unfortunately, it now seems to be stuck in an endless reboot cycle, getting as far as "Welcome, Starting up..." for about 10-15sec before cycling again.

I've tried the usual stuff:

Unplugged both the power cable and ethernet, re-seated the cablecard. 
Tried to run a Kickstart 54 to check the hard drive, but even though the alternating green/orange lights suggest the code was accepted, the diagnostic screen never appears. Just continues with the same reboot cycle.

Since I'm not that familiar with the purpose of the other Kickstart options, I haven't tried any of them yet. I don't want to just start shooting in the dark and possibly making things worse. So I'm looking for a little advice on "next steps" to try.

I'm comfortable with the Kickstart procedures, and I'm familiar with diagnosing hard drives in a Windows environment. So I'm happy to try any of that (though I'd like a little reassurance that plugging the HDD into Windows system won't mess with the TiVo OS).

A couple other points:

This particular unit is about 13 months old, so I'm assuming it's out-of-warranty.
It has lifetime service, so not prepared to junk it.
It has a lot of stored programming I'd _really _hate to lose. Even if I'm looking at a flaky HDD, I'm really hoping I can at least pull the (transferable) data before replacing it.

So again, just looking for tips on what to try next. Any help greatly appreciated.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

In case worst comes to worst: by any chance did you purchase the box and subscription with a credit card that doubles the warranty (getting the box to 2 years)?


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> In case worst comes to worst: by any chance did you purchase the box and subscription with a credit card that doubles the warranty (getting the box to 2 years)?


I did. My AmEx doubles warranties (up to an additional year). Do you know if TiVo is known to work well with the CC companies on that?

Also, do you know if TiVos warranty repairs (assuming HDD or whole unit replacement) make any attempt to recover data? At this point, I'm most concerned about trying to get a particular collection off that drive. I can easily replace the HDD myself, if necessary, and would probably prefer that to taking the time to send it in. But man, I'm bummed if I lose those programs.....


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Unfortunately (or fortunately), no experience here. With a non-TiVo product covered by a VISA extended warranty, the extended warranty company had no contact with the manf.-- everything went through me.

I guess here, given the importance of the data, you might want the issue to be with something apart from the hard drive--if that other part can be replaced, hopefully your data would remain.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Unfortunately (or fortunately), no experience here. With a non-TiVo product covered by a VISA extended warranty, the extended warranty company had no contact with the manf.-- everything went through me.
> 
> I guess here, given the importance of the data, you might want the issue to be with something apart from the hard drive--if that other part can be replaced, hopefully your data would remain.


My one experience with using the AmEx extended warranty was several years ago, with a Toshiba laptop. They were good about covering the costs, but I had to use their "authorized" repair shop, which was a little hole-in-the-wall 30mi away, and it took weeks for them to get the needed parts. I'd hope TiVo itself would handle any needed repairs, but who knows.

Anyway, I'm still hoping that that discussion is jumping the gun. Does anybody have any suggestions for further diagnostic measures? Or any other tricks to get the thing booted up?

-----------------------------------------------

On another note: I scanned through the thread on the new power saving mode and didn't notice anything that looked relevant. But any chance this might be related to my Roamio or its HDD getting messed up? I just turned that setting on a few days ago to try it out (the 4-hr option). Ironically, I was finding it a bit annoying to have to wait for the TiVo to "warm up" so I was going to turn it off. Now I'm wishing I'd avoided it, as I shouldn't have just assumed it was a well-implemented sleep mode.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> Also, do you know if TiVos warranty repairs (assuming HDD or whole unit replacement) make any attempt to recover data? At this point, I'm most concerned about trying to get a particular collection off that drive. I can easily replace the HDD myself, if necessary, and would probably prefer that to taking the time to send it in. But man, I'm bummed if I lose those programs.....


It's hard for me to imagine anybody's warranty covering data recovery. In case your TiVo drive is in the process of failing, you could try cloning it ASAP with Gnu ddrescue as found on the SystemRescueCd (my new favorite rescue CD). I believe its version of ddrescue is a bit newer than the one used by JMFS. You would need a target drive of equal or larger size. Search for threads here that mention ddrescue. And be careful of your ddrescue parameters, since it will happily copy an empty drive over your TiVo drive if you tell it to do so. But nothing relieves stress and expands your recovery options like having a full backup of your data.

EDIT: Whenever I mention ddrescue, I should probably include a link to How To Clone Your Failing TiVo Drive With ddrescue, which is a sort of TiVo-specific tutorial.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Pull the hard drive and hook it up to a windows pc and run the hard drive manufacturers diagnostic utility.

Buy a new hard drive and install it in the roamio and see if it boots.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

Thank you both for your responses. 

*L David Matheny: * I was actually thinking of that (cloning the drive). I have plenty of hard drives, as I build PCs, so easy enough for me to do that. If successful, this would presumably preserve my data. But are you suggesting the new cloned drive could just then be installed and the TiVo will boot up from that drive?

Indeed, nothing relieves stress like a good back-up! Ironically, I had very recently started the process of backing up some of my most important programs (i.e., ones that are never re-broadcast in their original form). Seemed logical to start with the oldest units, the Series3s, then the Premieres, and save the Roamio for last since it's the newest one. I had gotten as far as the first Premier..... I have one especially important folder on the Roamio. Is there any known way to extract the shows, or transfer them to another TiVo, once the HDD is out of the Roamio? (Whether the original drive or a clone.)

*shwru980r: * I can easily try a different hard drive, but I'm confused about where the OS is stored. Does the Roamio keep it in onboard flash? If not, how does it get the OS for the new drive, since it presumably wouldn't even know how to get online and download it?


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

One other thing. The largest drive I have on hand right now is 1Tb. If this all turns out to be a HDD failure and I need to replace it, I'd obviously want to get a 3-4Tb drive. Could I install and setup a smaller one for a few days until I get the replacement? Does the TiVo care how many times the HDD is replaced?


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> I was actually thinking of that (cloning the drive). I have plenty of hard drives, as I build PCs, so easy enough for me to do that. If successful, this would presumably preserve my data. But are you suggesting the new cloned drive could just then be installed and the TiVo will boot up from that drive?


Yes, a drive cloned with ddrescue is an exact copy and should work in the TiVo, although if you can clone the original drive without any problems, the issue you're having may not be a hard drive problem. Still, backups are good. I edited my earlier post to include a reference to How To Clone Your Failing TiVo Drive With ddrescue, which is a sort of TiVo-specific tutorial.



b-ball-fanatic said:


> Indeed, nothing relieves stress like a good back-up! Ironically, I had very recently started the process of backing up some of my most important programs (i.e., ones that are never re-broadcast in their original form). Seemed logical to start with the oldest units, the Series3s, then the Premieres, and save the Roamio for last since it's the newest one. I had gotten as far as the first Premier..... I have one especially important folder on the Roamio. Is there any known way to extract the shows, or transfer them to another TiVo, once the HDD is out of the Roamio? (Whether the original drive or a clone.)


I don't think there is any known way of accessing a TiVo's recordings except using the drive in the TiVo. If the programs are not copy-protected (and if the drive hasn't failed), you can continue to copy shows off to your computer once you fix whatever problem is keeping the TiVo from booting. Read up on "capacitor plague", which has been discussed much on TCF. It's been a problem with older model TiVos, but I guess any TiVo power supply could fail.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> One other thing. The largest drive I have on hand right now is 1Tb. If this all turns out to be a HDD failure and I need to replace it, I'd obviously want to get a 3-4Tb drive. Could I install and setup a smaller one for a few days until I get the replacement? Does the TiVo care how many times the HDD is replaced?


Technically, replacing the drive voids your TiVo warranty, but replacing it again won't get you even more pregnant, so to speak. The Roamio will format and initialize any drive up to 3TB, so you could run for a while and then change again when you have a larger drive ready, but if copy-protection is an issue, you may lose all your recordings (and maybe cable card pairing?) when you upgrade again.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

L David Matheny said:


> Technically, replacing the drive voids your TiVo warranty, but replacing it again won't get you even more pregnant, so to speak. The Roamio will format and initialize any drive up to 3TB, so you could run for a while and then change again when you have a larger drive ready, but if copy-protection is an issue, you may lose all your recordings (and maybe cable card pairing?) when you upgrade again.


If I just use a smaller drive for a few days, I wouldn't record anything important on it. So no problems there. This would impact cable card pairing? I never thought of that.

I'm leaning more toward HDD failure at this point. With the drive hooked up to a PC, I'm getting unusual diagnostic behavior. I have several disc diagnostics, and their results are all over the place. One seems to read the drive fine, says it passes SMART, etc, while the WD Lifeguard doesn't even see the drive. (It's a WD AV-GP 3Tb Green) Very unusual, in my experience, as multiple diagnostics are normally redundant. If I put a new drive in the Roamio and everything starts working, I'll have to assume the original drive failed. Believe it or not, I would much rather it be some other hardware issue, even though that would mean sending it in.

Going to try cloning. I'm not especially optimistic, but....fingers crossed.

In the meantime, is there any consensus on the best replacement drive? I could go read the upgrade thread....but if I don't have to, even better. I have a lot of experience WD Red in my NAS build, so might see what the thinking is on those.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

Can anyone clarify a couple things for me regarding the TiVo OS on Roamio:

(1) Does the entire TiVo OS reside in M/B flash, rather than on the HDD?

(2) If so, is the HDD essentially just a storage device formatted and prepared (on first use, presumably) by the TiVo OS?

(3) Are the Kickstart applets (or whatever they are) part of the OS, and therefore stored on the M/B? (I'd think they need to be, in order to run HDD tests.)

I realize there doesn't seem to be much interest in the issue I'm experiencing (so many, many thanks to those who've taken the time to offer their thoughts and advice!), but some new testing makes me wonder if indeed this is a HDD problem.

To recap, my Roamio Pro would just reboot repeatedly from the "Welcome, Starting up..." screen. Rapid green/orange lights indicated that it accepts the KS codes I've tried, but none of the routines actually started....it just continued the reboot cycle. I suspected the HDD might be failing and had become inaccessible, though I could hear/feel the HDD spinning, with no atypical noises.

But now I have attached a different HDD (clean, known-to-be-good) and I'm getting the _exact _same behavior. This makes me question whether it perhaps cannot access _any _HDD. Even if it doesn't like that new drive, for whatever reason, shouldn't I get some kind of error message? Shouldn't I still be able to run KS 54 on it?

Can the on-board flash get corrupted? Any advice on how I might try to drill down the diagnosis? Any help _greatly _appreciated.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

The silver lining in the cloud: it's sounding like it's not the HD, and so the TiVo unit may need to be repaired/replaced but the shows on the hard drive may be safe.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

How are the shows safe if the motherboard is bad? You can't play them or transfer them.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> Can anyone clarify a couple things for me regarding the TiVo OS on Roamio:
> 
> (1) Does the entire TiVo OS reside in M/B flash, rather than on the HDD?
> 
> ...


(1) At least a copy of the OS resides in flash memory. I once believed that copy might be used only when initializing an empty hard drive, but others have said that it is the actual working copy of the OS (which gets booted).

(2) I'm not sure exactly where the running copy of the OS gets booted from. See (1).

(3) I'm guessing the Kickstart applets would reside wherever the OS resides. See (1).

If a different HDD exhibits the exact same behavior, your problem is apparently not with the HDD. That could be good news since your recordings would still be intact, or it could be bad news since all recordings on the HDD are tied somehow to the TiVo serial number on the motherboard. But most TiVo failures involve either the HDD or the power supply. You can hope that your power supply is failing. Don't give up that box (motherboard) without making every effort to get it working again, since it may be the only MB that can read your recordings.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Arcady said:


> How are the shows safe if the motherboard is bad? You can't play them or transfer them.


They're potentially safe on the hard drive--put the drive in a replacement machine, or clone the hard drive and put the cloned drive in a replacement machine.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Mikeguy said:


> They're potentially safe on the hard drive--put the drive in a replacement machine, or clone the hard drive and put the cloned drive in a replacement machine.


ERROR 51


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

L David Matheny said:


> Don't give up that box (motherboard) without making every effort to get it working again, since it may be the only MB that can read your recordings.


Thanks for addressing all my questions...it's very helpful. I'm learning a lot of little things that I never had cause to think about before. 

For example....I guess it never occurred to me that recordings might have some permanent pairing with a specific TiVo M/B.

If TiVo had to repair a unit....either, say, replace a M/B or whole machine (if that's more cost-effective)....all recordings would be lost, even if the HDD is healthy? Seems like they should have some way to pair the good drive to the new machine and keep the customer's data intact.

Jeez, it's starting to seem like just about _any _kind of failure carries a very high risk of data loss. I realize it's "just TV shows," but some of those matter a lot to people....this is another one of those times when TiVo's being so closed and proprietary about everything feels very clunky and outdated.

I'm backing up my other TiVos as fast as kmttg can move them!


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

Arcady said:


> ERROR 51


Is that what happens if you drop a TiVo-formatted HDD into a different machine? No way around it?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Ah, wasn't aware of that, sorry (and thanks for the education). Guess the hope--in the circumstances--would have to be that it's something not on the motherboard (could that really be possible, though)?


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

The OS is stored on (Samsung) flash chip on Motherboard. This gets verified and booted directly. The kickstart code for the hard drive check is part of the OS so still in flash.

That said, a box's services depends on the Hard Drive being present, functional, and formatted to finish booting completely. It's plausible to make an OS that will fully boot without a HDD present, but I believe Roamio's SW is not written that way.

As an example, a Tivo Mini and Tivo Stream are written that way.


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