# New $150 Lifetime Service Transfer Fee



## SuperSpiker (Jan 13, 2003)

From The Consumerist:

TiVo customers have a few different choices when paying for their service plans. The one that's gamble of sorts is the "lifetime" plan, which includes service for the entire life of your device and currently costs $399. Lifetime service is technically transferable when a TiVo is replaced under warranty, but Nate discovered a new feature: a new $150 fee to transfer service from the original DVR to the replacement.

Just got off the phone with the Tivo customer support, where I was informed of an unfortunate new charge your readers might be interested in. According to the customer service rep, starting in April 2009 there is now a $150 fee to transfer "lifetime" service from one unit to another during a repair, regardless of whether the unit is under warranty or not, which is certainly a change in terms from when the lifetime service was sold. Unfortunately, the transfer fee makes any repairs not cost effective, since you could rent a DVR from your cable provider for many, many years, during which your Tivo would probably die again, necessitating another $150 transfer fee.

I found myself in this boat this morning, when my Tivo series3 died. Cost to fix and transfer lifetime service: $349. No thanks. Neither the Tivo customer service department nor the account cancellation department, who were both very nice, had the ability to rescind the lifetime transfer fee, which would cost tivo nothing. In response, I have cancelled the one tivo I still had on a month to month plan.

In order to make financial sense, the DVR needs to last four years after the customer purchases a lifetime service plan. The $150 transfer fee means that a lifetime plan is now an even poorer investment.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

SuperSpiker said:


> Just got off the phone with the Tivo customer support, where I was informed of an unfortunate new charge your readers might be interested in. According to the customer service rep, starting in April 2009 there is now a $150 fee to transfer "lifetime" service from one unit to another during a repair, *regardless of whether the unit is under warranty or not*, which is certainly a change in terms from when the lifetime service was sold. Unfortunately, the transfer fee makes any repairs not cost effective, since you could rent a DVR from your cable provider for many, many years, during which your Tivo would probably die again, necessitating another $150 transfer fee.


Wrong.

TiVo doesn't charge the fee for TiVo's under warranty.

If you have an old out of warranty TiVo, TiVo does now charge a fee to transfer the warranty to the refurb box you buy.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> Wrong.
> 
> TiVo doesn't charge the fee for TiVo's under warranty.
> 
> If you have an old out of warranty TiVo, TiVo does now charge a fee to transfer the warranty to the refurb box you buy.


I don't get why TiVo just doesn't work this in as the warranty repair price. They say we can fix your box for $300. Why break it down to we can fix your box for $150 and then after that you have to pay $150 to transfer lifetime.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

SuperSpiker said:


> In order to make financial sense, *the DVR needs to last four years* after the customer purchases a lifetime service plan. The $150 transfer fee means that a lifetime plan is now an even poorer investment.



$399 divided $12.95/mo ≈ 30 months = 2.5 years ≠ 4 years
with MSD
$299 divided by $9.95/mo ≈ 30 months = 2.5 years ≠ 4 years

$399 + $150 transfer fee = $549 divide by $12.95/mo ≈ 42 months = 3.5 years ≠ 4 years

It's called *Product* Lifetime Service for a reason. Any guesses as to why?

It's amazing that people are so clueless when it comes to PLS. The ability to have PLS transferred for less than the cost of buying a new PLS is TiVo going above and beyond.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Einselen said:


> I don't get why TiVo just doesn't work this in as the warranty repair price. They say we can fix your box for $300. Why break it down to we can fix your box for $150 and then after that you have to pay $150 to transfer lifetime.


Because some TiVos are on a monthly service plan.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

scandia101 said:


> Because some TiVos are on a monthly service plan.


Ahh yes I see now. I have two S2 one with lifetime and one with prepaid. If I send them both it for the same problem and TiVo goes yep it is your HD and the one will be $300 and the other will be $150 I will be like, "What?!? They have the same issue, why is one so much more" and then they will explain the lifetime transfer.

::Smacks forehead:: Yeah I should have thought of that one.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I think a logical LS transfer policy would be:

TiVo sets an "official" break-even point such as 30 mos. or 36 mos, whatever they choose.

If you have to transfer due to a repair, or a replacement required by a failure, offer a transfer value prorated using the official break-even point.

For example, if the break-even point is 36 mos and the TiVo is 24 mos old, you get a 33% LS transfer credit, i.e., pay only $266 for the transferred LS.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

dlfl said:


> I think a logical LS transfer policy would be:
> 
> TiVo sets an "official" break-even point such as 30 mos. or 36 mos, whatever they choose.
> 
> ...


A new TiVo has a full 90 day warranty, there is no charge for replacement and they will transfer lifetime for free.

If it dies between 90 days and 1 year, there is a $49 replacement fee and no charge for replacement and they will transfer lifetime for free.

If it dies after year 1 and and you've had lifetime service for less than 3 years, there is a $149 replacement fee and they do NOT CHARGE a lifetime fee.

They ONLY charge the lifetime transfer fee if you've had lifetime for more than 3 years.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

So let me get this straight. If I have a TiVo with lifetime and it konks out this is my payment schedule to get the like model TiVo with lifetime on it.

0-90 days: No fee
90 days - 1 year: $49 fee
1 - 3 years: $149 fee
3+ years: Cost of repair plus $150 for lifetime transfer

Does TiVo not have a set cost for replacement after 3+ years as after then they may have to special order parts and/or hope you junk that box and upgrade with new service on the new box?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Einselen said:


> So let me get this straight. If I have a TiVo with lifetime and it konks out this is my payment schedule to get the like model TiVo with lifetime on it.
> 
> 0-90 days: No fee
> 90 days - 1 year: $49 fee
> ...


TiVo does not repair and send back your TiVo, they just send out a refurbished TiVo for $149, if the Lifetime Service was on the box for more than 3 years TiVo will charge you another $150 to move that Lifetime. You don't have to be concerned about parts for your broken TiVo if you are sending it out to TiVo for repair. There are other 3rd ptys that will repair your TiVo for less money and you will not have to have any Lifetime Xfer.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

lessd said:


> TiVo does not repair and send back your TiVo, they just send out a refurbished TiVo for $149, if the Lifetime Service was on the box for more than 3 years TiVo will charge you another $150 to move that Lifetime. You don't have to be concerned about parts for your broken TiVo if you are sending it out to TiVo for repair. There are other 3rd ptys that will repair your TiVo for less money and you will not have to have any Lifetime Xfer.


Yes you won't get back your exact TiVo you sent in, but where do you think those refurbed units come from?


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

Einselen said:


> Yes you won't get back your exact TiVo you sent in, but where do you think those refurbed units come from?


Refurb units are soylent TiVo!


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> A new TiVo has a full 90 day warranty, there is no charge for replacement and they will transfer lifetime for free.
> 
> If it dies between 90 days and 1 year, there is a $49 replacement fee and no charge for replacement and they will transfer lifetime for free.
> 
> ...


That's a darn reasonable policy, a much better deal than my "logical" scheme. Sorry, I've just never paid that much attention to LS terms. Is all this openly spelled out on the TiVo web site or is some of it based just on reported user experiences?


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Einselen said:


> Does TiVo not have a set cost for replacement after 3+ years as after then they may have to special order parts and/or hope you junk that box and upgrade with new service on the new box?





Einselen said:


> Yes you won't get back your exact TiVo you sent in, but where do you think those refurbed units come from?


They do not guarantee the replacement will be the same model.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

SuperSpiker said:


> I found myself in this boat this morning, when my Tivo series3 died. Cost to fix and transfer lifetime service: $349. No thanks.


You didn't say why your TiVo died, but odds are very high that the hard drive failed. Just a thought...buy Instant Cake for $19.99 and a new 1TB hard drive for $< $93 and you're back in business w/lifetime service intact, 157 hours of HD recording capacity and for all intents a brand new TiVo. (Click the link below my sig for more details.)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dlfl said:


> I think a logical LS transfer policy would be: TiVo sets an "official" break-even point ....


And given that TiVo generally loses money, how do you factor *their *break-even point into your formula?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> And given that TiVo generally loses money, how do you factor *their *break-even point into your formula?


A company that generally loses money may not be in business indefinitely. That is an additional factor that must be considered before spending money for LS.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Absolutely, though at least in TiVo's case it seems as likely as not that a business failure would be followed-up by a very quick acquisition by another company, and practically uninterrupted service for current subscribers.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> Absolutely, though at least in TiVo's case it seems as likely as not that a business failure would be followed-up by a very quick acquisition by another company, and practically uninterrupted service for current subscribers.


Another company might purchase tivo for their patents. Maybe DISH, Motorola, Comcast etc. They'd be less likely to spend money keeping current service. Instead of fixing the problem with S1 units not connecting just declare the S1 at the "end of life". It took tivo a couple of years before they solved the FiOS issues. I agree another company might continue to provide guide data, and collect subscription fees but that might be it.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Yes, that's what I meant. I think that buffer against total failure would be enough to keep lifetime service worthwhile for some people.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Einselen said:


> Yes you won't get back your exact TiVo you sent in, but where do you think those refurbed units come from?


It does not matter where the TiVo refurb units come from just the fact that it is not your exact TiVo means the LS xfer is a issue, and the TSN is changed for all Series 3 refurb TiVos. (the third digit in the 2nd group of four goes from a 0 to a 1 or greater)


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bicker said:


> And given that TiVo generally loses money, how do you factor *their *break-even point into your formula?


By adjusting the break-even point TiVo could set the average consumer benefit *up* or *down* relative to the current policy. I still think proration is more logical than the current stepped (or bracketed) formula -- but perhaps not worth the additional math complication. That, as well as all other aspects of terms and conditions is for TiVo to decide, of course.


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## kemajor (Jan 2, 2003)

Can't resist throwing in my two cents...

I don't care what anyone says this new policy is complete and total BS. If I'm ever directly affected by it that will be the end of my relationship with Tivo.

- K


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

kemajor said:


> I don't care what anyone says this new policy is complete and total BS. If I'm ever directly affected by it that will be the end of my relationship with Tivo.


I totally agree! Tivo has gone to far now with this new fee. Charging $150 bucks, are they freaking out of their minds?

I guess the lesson here is never to have Tivo repair the box and use a third party service.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Resist said:


> I totally agree! Tivo has gone to far now with this new fee. Charging $150 bucks, are they freaking out of their minds?
> 
> I guess the lesson here is never to have Tivo repair the box and use a third party service.


I would guess that is exactly what TiVo wants, I don't think repairs is a big money maker for TiVo.


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## comatose (Feb 25, 2002)

I never post to these forums, but I had to pipe in with this story. I had a Series 3 TiVo. The remote sensor went bad - wasn't picking up the remote signal - and since it's out of warranty, I paid something like $150 to replace it. No problem with that. The refurbished one they sent me had a faulty cablecard slot, which that itself is a long story which I won't go into. So they replaced that 2nd one for free since they had sent me a bad unit. So now I'm on my third Series 3 TiVo and a few months later it starts rebooting on its own, the menus & everything slows way down, and then it just konks out altogether on me. I call to have it replaced again and I'm told they have to charge $50 to replace plus $150 to transfer the lifetime service!

I said that they didn't charge to replace the lifetime service before and they say it's a new fee imposed and they can't do anything about it (but they do waive the $50). So let me get this straight... you replace my TiVo... TWICE... with 2 faulty TiVos and then tell me that I have to pay to transfer the lifetime service on it. After I paid an initial $150 to replace it a mere few months ago. And what will I have after spending this now $300? Another refurbished Series 3 TiVo which will probably have some other problem on me.

I asked if I could exchange the TiVo and just drop the lifetime service and go month-to-month. I don't want to transfer lifetime service on something whose lifetime is apparently 3 months. They say NO, my choices are ditch the TiVo and buy a new one or pay the $150 to transfer lifetime service.

I've been a TiVo owner since way back with the Series 1. I used to tell all my friends about TiVo, even had a TiVo icon as my IM pic. This despite the fact that almost every TiVo I've owned (and I lose track of how many I've gone through) has had a hard drive fail on me. Some of the early ones I chalked up to the fact that I had replaced the hard drive on them myself, but even ones I didn't fiddle with. And yes I put them on a UPS. But I always stayed with TiVo and figured I was just unlucky.

Now I don't know what I'll do. I hate going to the stupid cable company DVR but I also hate shelling out another enormous sum of money for a device that'll probably fail on me, and giving more money to a company that doesn't know how to value its longtime (and repeat) customers.


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## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

kemajor said:


> Can't resist throwing in my two cents...
> 
> I don't care what anyone says this new policy is complete and total BS. If I'm ever directly affected by it that will be the end of my relationship with Tivo.
> 
> - K


I fully agree with this. Bad, bad move from a Customer Service aspect from Tivo. CS has always been an achilles heel with Tivo. Too much of a struggle to have good CS and try to be profitable at the same time I guess.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

coma,

Wait about a day and see if one of the TiVo Employees check in here and say something to you. Otherwise after about a day send them a PM (if their box is not full) and see what they can help offer you. From a refurb and few months later (I am guessing maybe 3 so around 90 days) I can see how you would be worried to pay $150 for a transfer and have to keep putting in money to repair/replace the refurbs. (Though I do think you got an awful string of bad luck having that many bad batches in a row).


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> If you have an old out of warranty TiVo, TiVo does now charge a fee to transfer the warranty to the refurb box you buy.


Or a nearly new out of warranty TiVo like my (at the time) 15 month old TiVo HD that crapped out shortly after this new policy was implemented. The sad part is that the box only had lifetime for about 8 months, but since it was transferred from my S2, they want to charge me the fee.

While TiVo will still get money from me, I'm going to let the spare THD I had continue to sit in the box. I'm thinking I see a switch to D* once they come out with the TiVo boxes again. Sure, TiVo will still get some revenue from me, but it's less than what they get me for now.

It's really too bad that it was the hard drive controller on the system's chipset that crapped out and not just the hard drive. If it was a hard drive or a power supply, I'd have fixed it myself and never run into this idiocy.

(I don't mind the fee so much when they're talking about 3 or 4 year old boxes, but for recent ones it's just a way to drive away customers)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

comatose said:


> I hate going to the stupid cable company DVR


This fact alone rationalizes the new fee. Business is always a matter of playing the odds, and as a consumer we would like to think that our condemnations of suppliers are absolute and unqualified, but that's not rational given statements like this one here. We don't like paying extra fees, but we also don't like the alternatives. TiVo's doing poorly not because of any imagined customer service oriented backlash, but I suspect because there isn't enough legitimate, reasonable consumer demand for a superior, stand-alone DVR. It's as simple as that.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

bicker said:


> This fact alone rationalizes the new fee.


Try to rationalize that transfer fee does not reset 3 year clock and that lifetime unit can not be converted to monthly.


> TiVo's doing poorly not because of any imagined customer service oriented backlash, but I suspect because there isn't enough legitimate, reasonable consumer demand for a superior, stand-alone DVR. It's as simple as that.


No, TiVo is doing poorly because it is no longer superior DVR. TiVO is the ONLY DVR with declining subscriptions and that tells me that it's perceived value to price ratio keeps declining (on both ends - cost of ownership keeps going up with new policies and perceived value is going down with ads on TiVo and improvements on competitors DVRs). Tivo sales are lower now than what it used to be 10 years ago. There were selling more $500 14hr S1s to market that had no idea of what DVR is than they sell HDs to the market saturated with DVRs.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

That's bull. People ***** about other DVRs far more than TiVo. TiVo is still far and away the best. And still its perceived value is less than its cost to provide. 

Those who must find fault in the situation should look to the mass-market consumer base. The problem is that they don't get that gratuitous feeling from drawing blood from attacking such an amorphous entity, which ostensibly they themselves are a part of.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

News flash! Don't send your Tivo back to Tivo, Inc. for repairs. There are other repair services available that will probably be cheaper and not involve any additional lifetime service transfer fees (CCS is one alternative). Besides, the vast majority of Tivo problems are either hard drive or software related, both of which are easily remedied by the Tivo owner. If you send a Tivo back with one of these problems then Tivo is just going to replace it with a refurbed unit and charge you the extra fees. If you object to this notion then either fix it yourself or send it elsewhere for repairs.

FWIW, I've owned literally dozens of Tivos over a 10 year span and I have never even considered contacting Tivo for assistance in any way. I've never encountered a problem with a Tivo I couldn't fix on my own, although there are definitely hardware issues that can occur that I probably wouldn't care to deal with myself. The bottom line is that most repairs are relatively simple and can be performed with minimal expertise in computers. There are tons of step by step guides posted here and in other sites to take you by the hand and show you how to re-image a hard drive, which is usually all that is required.

Send it elsewhere for repairs, fix it yourself, or be prepared to hand Tivo a blank check. Your choice. It's up to you to make the smart one.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Send it elsewhere for repairs, fix it yourself, or be prepared to hand Tivo a blank check. Your choice. It's up to you to make the smart one.


:up: :up:


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I was curious how my lifetime service would be handled with my new TiVo S3 and found this thread. I purchased my first TiVo in October 2000 with lifetime service, the DirecTV version, I believe lifetime was $200 at that time. I discontinued DirecTV service this year after too many rate increases and the fact that Blu-ray quality is so much better and that is how I prefer to watch movies when possible now. I have been using OTA with a Samsung SIR-T165/D-VHS for the last 6 months and it has worked well enough for what little OTA programming of interest I have found. I decided to start reading about new TiVo internet services and see if I would be happy with OTA and the streaming and downloading features and decided I would be. 

The one unknown for me was what happens if my TiVo breaks down. Reading about problems here makes me believe it is probable it will breakdown before I replace what it does with something else, now I know if it happens after 3 years, the cost to get a refurbished TiVo with lifetime will be $300. Assuming that doesn't change, I don't know if that is something I would be willing to do. My previous TiVo's never broke down and had to be replaced because of changes in my service. I see this box as being perfect for my needs for many years now. I have it in the open and well ventilated and will try to make the lifetime service be associated with a box that lasts for more than 5 years.

Chris


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## kimifelipe (Aug 7, 2009)

I think Tivo's warranty and lifetime transfer fee terms are very reasonable. They make money on delivering guide content and no longer make money on the hardware. As a new customer, I find Tivo's terms entirely reasonable, and I will likely be a customer for a long time. OTOH, I definitely prefer the interface and menu structure/GUI of the FIOS DVR over the Tivo, however the flexibility and a couple of features of the Tivo over the FIOS DVR just put it above the motorola box IMO.

From a financial perspective, Tivo definitely makes sense; it is at a minimum a good deal. If you get more than, say, four years out of your box, it is a very good deal.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

wierdo said:


> Or a nearly new out of warranty TiVo like my (at the time) 15 month old TiVo HD that crapped out shortly after this new policy was implemented.


15 months old is not 'nearly new'.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> 15 months old is not 'nearly new'.


I think it is 'nearly new' as it was just out of warranty, duh. That is like saying my car is 'nearly new' as the 10 yr/100,000 mile warranty just ended on it.


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## bluelinex (Nov 5, 2007)

If you have a lifetime on any box out of warranty & it goes bad don't let TIVO replace it. Send it to DVR Upgrade or Weeknees you'll get the same box back & if the hard drive is replaced it will have a 3 year warranty on it. Also no transfer fee for your lifetime service to a new box.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I imagine this might be the reply from TiVo inc. if they told it like it is---

look you technophobe, we have a whole building full of series 2 DVRs with just bad hard drives - we can only sell them so much longer and then we junk the lot of them. We do not want your series 2 so you will have to pay us now for junking it later if you want us to fix it. We are smart enough to forsee that Series 3 will be in the same boat soon enough.

so take your luddite self down to best buy(we like them) and get a new hard drive and fix it your self. If you really are a technophobe then google "fix TiVo" and find a whole bunch of people who actually want to be in the business of fixing TiVo DVRs. That is all.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Your logic doesn't work. I send tivo a broken unit. Tivo sends me back a refurbished unit. Tivo's inventory of units is the same--one in and one out.

A bad hard drive is the most common source of failure. Most of us will do the repair ourselves. That doesn't change the fact that charging some customers (JMO) $300 to repair a tivo by replacing a hard drive isn't reasonable. I understand other posters don't share my opinion.



ZeoTiVo said:


> I imagine this might be the reply from TiVo inc. if they told it like it is---
> 
> look you technophobe, we have a whole building full of series 2 DVRs with just bad hard drives - we can only sell them so much longer and then we junk the lot of them. We do not want your series 2 so you will have to pay us now for junking it later if you want us to fix it. We are smart enough to forsee that Series 3 will be in the same boat soon enough.
> 
> so take your luddite self down to best buy(we like them) and get a new hard drive and fix it your self. If you really are a technophobe then google "fix TiVo" and find a whole bunch of people who actually want to be in the business of fixing TiVo DVRs. That is all.


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## Natron (Dec 14, 2002)

I have a dead TiVo HD (20 hours HD) with lifetime service. I am very sure it is the mother board. Assuming it is the mother board. I read from this thread I can pay for cost of repair plus $150 for lifetime transfer. 
Is there a flat rate cost of repair and how much would it be?
Does the TiVo website have a link about this policy?
Any advice on how to talk to the TiVo CSR request the repair and the lifetime transfer?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lew said:


> Your logic doesn't work. I send tivo a broken unit. Tivo sends me back a refurbished unit. Tivo's inventory of units is the same--one in and one out.


TiVo would like to have a zero stock of series 2 units. They would rather *sell* the refurbs they have and not keep some parity. So looking at the repair out of warranty part of the business they decided to charge the full fees and lifetime transfer fee if applicable. They are now treating it more like a sale versus a repair and thus not have it be such a drain on resources. It is simple business math.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Natron said:


> I have a dead TiVo HD (20 hours HD) with lifetime service. I am very sure it is the mother board. Assuming it is the mother board. I read from this thread I can pay for cost of repair plus $150 for lifetime transfer.
> Is there a flat rate cost of repair and how much would it be?
> Does the TiVo website have a link about this policy?
> Any advice on how to talk to the TiVo CSR request the repair and the lifetime transfer?


I think the 'repair' is also a flat 150$ if the box is more than a year old. Best to call in and find out the price. There is no specific thing to ask for other than telling them what you have. You may win at CSR lotto and get a CSR that waives some of the fees. I find nice wins the lotto more often than rant.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

Natron said:


> I read from this thread I can pay for cost of repair plus $150 for lifetime transfer.


How old is the TiVo HD? Did you originally get the lifetime service for that unit or was it transferred from an older one? The lifetime service transfer fee only applies if the unit/service is older than a certain limit (I think it's three or four years?).


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## comatose (Feb 25, 2002)

I already began looking into how to fix it. I've replaced/added hard drives in TiVos before (with Series 1 & 2's) so I can try that, but the point is, I shouldn't have to. My initial replacement was because of a bad IR sensor, and I was fine paying the fee to exchange it. I didn't complain, I paid the fee and that was that. Now I'm in a situation where the replacement they sent (actually the 2nd replacement they sent) failed 3 months after I got it (just past the 90 day warranty) and I have to shell out an additional $150 or find some other way to fix it. I have better ways to spend my free time than dealing with this. It's also not guaranteed to be a hard drive issue and I could spend money and time on fixing it only to find it's something different.

I'm not complaining about the $150 service transfer fee in general, I'm complaining about my specific situation. The compromise I offered - take my broken TiVo and send me a refurb one with no lifetime service, I'll just go month-to-month - I thought was very reasonable but they can't even do that for who knows what reason.

TiVo keeps adding all these features which are just peachy but what I use the DVR for is A) recording season passes B) watching what I recorded. I don't listen to music, surf for YouTube videos, set up wishlists, etc etc. A cable company DVR, although with a worse UI, will do fine for what I need it for. I've been holding out mostly out of loyalty to TiVo - I was a TiVo owner before 90&#37; of people even know what a TiVo was and the only way to get them to understand was to say "it's like a VCR but without tapes...". Now my loyalty has pretty much been shot.

And BTW, I was very polite with them on the phone every time I called (which was many times due to the many issues I was dealing with). They say there's nothing the customer service people can do to waive the $150 fee so no point in yelling at them. I'm ranting here just to let others know the experience I had.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

comatose said:


> The compromise I offered ....


I think this really hits on something that happens a lot. In the consumer marketplace, generally speaking, unless the company accidentally screwed a customer over (i.e., there is a financially defensible reason for bypassing standard procedures and standard offerings), it is not possible for a customer-specific offering to be created to serve an individual customer's preferences. The mass-market works by capitalizing on economies of scale, and one of the ramifications of that is that, again other than in cases where the company accidentally screwed a customer over, interactions with customers must fit into those that are designed into the set of offerings.


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## Natron (Dec 14, 2002)

Brainiac 5 said:


> How old is the TiVo HD? Did you originally get the lifetime service for that unit or was it transferred from an older one? The lifetime service transfer fee only applies if the unit/service is older than a certain limit (I think it's three or four years?).


I got it in 2002 so it is old. I took advantage of the offer to transfer my lifetime service from my series 2 which was transferred from my series 1. 

Second question: Does TiVo offer a way to upgrade the hardware instead of a repair. I need some more storage and prefer for it to be a bigger hard drive instead of the my-expander option.


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## Natron (Dec 14, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think the 'repair' is also a flat 150$ if the box is more than a year old. Best to call in and find out the price...


So, TiVo does not show the repair prices or the lifetime service transfers on their website. I looked and could not find it.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> 15 months old is not 'nearly new'.


It is if the only moving part is a hard drive. A TiVo isn't like a cellphone, which gets banged up from day to day handling and (ab)use.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> It is if the only moving part is a hard drive. A TiVo isn't like a cellphone, which gets banged up from day to day handling and (ab)use.


So the age of electronics is judged by how many moving parts they have?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Actually, I think the *best* way to judge when a piece of equipment is "new" versus not new is based on the expiration of the initial warranty. By the time the warranty expires, the device is absolutely not new.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

bicker said:


> By the time the warranty expires, the device is absolutely not new.


So if TiVo had a 90 day warranty, you'd say that a TiVo failing after 6 months wasn't quite premature?

Based on my experience with previous TiVos, I'd say failure after 15 months is quite premature. More so if you exclude the simple failed hard drive.

I could enumerate the longevity of each of my TiVos, but suffice it to say that _four_ years is a more normal lifetime for the boxes I had. Other than the failed THD, my only other (TiVo) electronics failure was the S2 that used to have my lifetime service before the transfer offer. Its power supply failed. Another relatively easy replacement...

I was under the impression that the THD had moved the crypto chip functionality (which contains the TSN) into one of the Broadcom chips, thus making it impossible for third parties to swap the motherboard and keep your TSN (and lifetime) intact. If that's not the case, I may be doing some desoldering and resoldering. (I have a spare THD)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

wierdo said:


> So if TiVo had a 90 day warranty, you'd say that a TiVo failing after 6 months wasn't quite premature?


No. I'd say that a TiVo *is not "new" *on Day 91.

Read the message you replied to again, more closely. You'll see that you grossly misread what I wrote.

<lots of irrelevant blah blah blah snipped>


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

bicker said:


> No. I'd say that a TiVo *is not "new" *on Day 91.
> 
> Read the message you replied to again, more closely. You'll see that you grossly misread what I wrote.


Oddly, I'd say a TiVo (or any product) is not "new" the moment you take it out of the box and power it on for the first time. Luckily for me, I used the phrase "nearly new," not "new."

I believe you may have missed the "nearly," thus causing the disagreement at hand.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

wierdo said:


> So if TiVo had a 90 day warranty, you'd say that a TiVo failing after 6 months wasn't quite premature?


TiVo does have 90 days warranty. After 90 days you have to pay to get it exchanged for a refurb (technically TiVo claims that you have 1 year parts warranty, but since they do not repair your units it amounts to the discount on the exchange fee).
Also there is almost universally accepted definition of the new product. 
The product is no longer new after title to the product (ownership) is transferred from the retailer to the consumer by bill of sale or any other contract or legal instrument.
Your car is no longer new as soon as you sign on the bottom line and take delivery (drive it off the dealer's lot). Your house is no longer new after the title was transferred to you from the builder. Your TiVo is no longer new after you paid for it and took delivery (if you return it to the dealer or TiVo it can only be sold as refurbished).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Indeed, by wierdo's logic, we're all still "nearly" infants even though our warranty's ran out decades ago.


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## kimifelipe (Aug 7, 2009)

bicker said:


> That's bull. People ***** about other DVRs far more than TiVo. TiVo is still far and away the best. And still its perceived value is less than its cost to provide.
> 
> Those who must find fault in the situation should look to the mass-market consumer base. The problem is that they don't get that gratuitous feeling from drawing blood from attacking such an amorphous entity, which ostensibly they themselves are a part of.


I don't agree. Tivo is not far and away the best dvr. Not even close. I think the fios dvr is very nearly as good overall, and in terms of the user interface, the fios dvr is notably better than the Tivo.


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

kimifelipe said:


> I don't agree. Tivo is not far and away the best dvr. Not even close. I think the fios dvr is very nearly as good overall, and in terms of the user interface, the fios dvr is notably better than the Tivo.


The Fios DVR has many more Season passes issues, MUCH slower response times, not as friendly interface, etc.. etc...

The only DVR I thought was comparable to the TIVO is the Directv newer DVR. It is pretty close and user friendly.


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## kimifelipe (Aug 7, 2009)

NatasNJ said:


> The Fios DVR has many more Season passes issues, MUCH slower response times, not as friendly interface, etc.. etc...
> 
> The only DVR I thought was comparable to the TIVO is the Directv newer DVR. It is pretty close and user friendly.


Honestly my experience is just exactly the opposite. I have four working season passes, haven't missed a recording, and I find the interface significantly faster than the tivo interface. Not to mention the substantially more user-friendly guide and settings pages.

I like my tivo, but it's not the interface or reliability (exactly the opposite; I'm waiting on my second replacement) that makes it the marginally better dvr that it is compared to the fios dvr.

Now, if you compare the tivo to my directv hr22, then I agree, the tivo is substantially better (excepting the fact that you can record about 1/4 as much programming on the tivo). The hr22 is an unmitigated piece of shyte. It can take up to 4 seconds to change a channel, the interface is cutting edge 1997, it is unreliable, and the guide doesn't display much information. The only positive in its favor is the size of the hard drive, that is it.

I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with the fios dvr, but honestly, I am thinking about just keeping it when my (free) fios dvr trial is up, next to my tivo. The fios dvr is excellent.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

kimifelipe said:


> I don't agree. Tivo is not far and away the best dvr. Not even close. I think the fios dvr is very nearly as good overall, and in terms of the user interface, the fios dvr is notably better than the Tivo.


But it still has too many recording problems, which the TiVo doesn't.



kimifelipe said:


> Honestly my experience is just exactly the opposite. I have four working season passes, haven't missed a recording, and I find the interface significantly faster than the tivo interface. Not to mention the substantially more user-friendly guide and settings pages.
> 
> ....


Only 4?
try a few more than that. the problems will crop up. The people I know using the FIOS DVRs have more problems in a few months than my TiVos have had over many years.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo obtains guide data from Tribune. Verizon uses FYI http://www.fyitelevision.com/ .

Most of the recording issues is the caused by incomplete guide data, nothing to do with the actual hardware.

I agree with the PP, I think the FiOS interface is superior to tivo.

Tivo's advantages:
Better guide data.
Capacity can be expanded. Internal or External
Tivo To Go.
D/L from vendors like Amazon

FiOS advantages:

Can stream to non DVR boxes.
Can access VoD and PPV.
Generally costs less then tivo.
Better interface, JMO.

My experience. The FiOS DVR works fine for network shows and major cable channels (Showtime). The issues occur when you're recording shows on secondary networks (USA Network) and independent stations. I haven't had a single SP issue with FiOS *that wasn't an issue with the guide data.* The rumor is Verizon was going to switch to Tribune but changed their mind when Tribune went bankrupt.

The guide data is much better now then it was a year ago.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Only 4?


I just got back from the eye doctor so I thought that I had to have misread that. Try 40, here. With only 4, I wouldn't need a DVR to automatically set up recordings for me.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

bicker said:


> I just got back from the eye doctor so I thought that I had to have misread that. Try 40, here. With only 4, I wouldn't need a DVR to automatically set up recordings for me.


Isn't that the truth. With only 4 season passes, I couldn't even justify the extra cost of a DVR.


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## kimifelipe (Aug 7, 2009)

aaronwt said:


> But it still has too many recording problems, which the TiVo doesn't.
> 
> Only 4?
> try a few more than that. the problems will crop up. The people I know using the FIOS DVRs have more problems in a few months than my TiVos have had over many years.


Well I guess your dad's just bigger than my dad. Since this has become a pissing contest, I'll exit the discussion here.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

That's tivo's problem.

A FiOS customer is willing to pay a few extra dollars /month to upgrade a HD STB to a DVR. A customer who doesn't even record a handful of shows.

The same customer is less likely to spend $300 for a TivoHD, pay $8-$12/month for tivo service and another $4 per month for cable card rental.

Box breaks. FiOS will swap it out.

I have a TivoHD and a FiOS DVR. Guide data has gotten a lot better in the last 6 months. I had one time where the FiOS DVR recorded a show tivo missed. Most of my problems with the FiOS DVR was repeated shows that were picked up as a new episode.



bicker said:


> I just got back from the eye doctor so I thought that I had to have misread that. Try 40, here. With only 4, I wouldn't need a DVR to automatically set up recordings for me.





innocentfreak said:


> Isn't that the truth. With only 4 season passes, I couldn't even justify the extra cost of a DVR.





kimifelipe said:


> Well I guess your dad's just bigger than my dad. Since this has become a pissing contest, I'll exit the discussion here.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

kimifelipe said:


> Well I guess your dad's just bigger than my dad. Since this has become a pissing contest, I'll exit the discussion here.


He wasn't attacking you. The point was you may not see the issue if you use the DVR so infrequently. His point is valid that if you don't use a device as often as someone else it is very likely you won't see the same issues crop up. For example if you only used a DVR to pause and rewind live TV, you would never see an issue with season passes. The same goes if you only drove 4 times a week versus someone who used a car as their daily driver and had to commute. The commuter based on the usage rate would be more likely to see more problems.



lew said:


> That's tivo's problem.
> 
> A FiOS customer is willing to pay a few extra dollars /month to upgrade a HD STB to a DVR. A customer who doesn't even record a handful of shows.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone would disagree with you here. I just don't know the solution. I record enough shows for me to make it worth while.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

bicker said:


> Indeed, by wierdo's logic, we're all still "nearly" infants even though our warranty's ran out decades ago.


My point is that there is a period of time between which an item is new and the end of it's reasonably anticipated lifetime.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

What you seem to misunderstand is that things aren't "new" until they die. 

Another important concept that you may need to come to grips with is the Weibull Curve, but I'm feeling pretty sick right now so I'll suggest you just look it up instead of trying to explain it to you.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

wierdo said:


> My point is that there is a period of time between which an item is new and the end of it's reasonably anticipated lifetime.





bicker said:


> What you seem to misunderstand is that things aren't "new" until they die.


WTF?
He just said that there is a period between new and the end of it's reasonably anticipated lifetime. I.e. he's saying: New -> Not new -> Dead. As far as I can tell, that shows a very clear understanding of what you say he doesn't understand.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> WTF?
> He just said that there is a period between new and the end of it's reasonably anticipated lifetime.


WTFIWWY? Read his earlier messages.

Don't step into the middle of a discussion if you don't care to read the earlier part. :down:


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

kimifelipe said:


> Well I guess your dad's just bigger than my dad. Since this has become a pissing contest, I'll exit the discussion here.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

bicker said:


> WTFIWWY? Read his earlier messages.


Hmm..

Let's do that now..



wierdo said:


> Or a *nearly new* out of warranty TiVo like my (at the time) 15 month old TiVo HD


(Adverbs, gotta love 'em)



wierdo said:


> So if TiVo had a 90 day warranty, you'd say that a TiVo failing after 6 months wasn't quite *premature*?





bicker said:


> No. I'd say that a TiVo is not "new" on Day 91.





wierdo said:


> Oddly, I'd say a TiVo (or any product) is not "new" the moment you take it out of the box and power it on for the first time.





wierdo said:


> My point is that there is a period of time between which an item is new and the end of it's reasonably anticipated lifetime.


At no time did I state that a 15 month old TiVo, or in fact any TiVo that had ever been used was "new." You did, however, state that a 90 day old TiVo was "new." Obviously I know which statement I think is more accurate, but I think the other readers can form their own opinion.

Thanks for playing.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

You're being ridiculous. Go play your games elsewhere.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Geez! All that back and forth just on the question of whether a 15 mo. old TiVo can correctly be called "nearly new" ?? Why does it have to get so bitter?

Also, *bicker*, just what is the warranty period on "us" ?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dlfl said:


> Also, *bicker*, just what is the warranty period on "us" ?


there is no warranty and you get one chance to get it right. That is all.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Blessed be. Amen.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

bicker said:


> You're being ridiculous. Go play your games elsewhere.


Recapping the conversation after you told somebody that they needed to read the whole thing is ridiculous?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

kimifelipe said:


> Well I guess your dad's just bigger than my dad. Since this has become a pissing contest, I'll exit the discussion here.


What did you expect to happen??!? This _is _ a *TiVo Forum*, after all. LOL


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

wierdo said:


> Recapping the conversation after you told somebody that they needed to read the whole thing is ridiculous?


It is even more ridiculous for you to claim that that was what you did.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

bicker said:


> It is even more ridiculous for you to claim that that was what you did.


Would you like to elaborate on what exactly was wrong with the quotes I chose? Perhaps you could even select your own and see if you can somehow get a different meaning from them.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Does this really need to continue?


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