# New Lifetime Transfer Fee on Warranty claims



## DHP (Dec 8, 2006)

So, just had an interesting call with Tivo support.

I have a tivo Series 3 that has stuttering, lagging menus, and rebooting problems. I've divorced an external drive and removed the cable cards and it still has the above problems which tivo service agrees is probably the internal drive. I was getting ready to get an exchanged product (within one year warranty) and they tried to charge me two fees. One is a $49 "exchange fee" and the other is a $199 lifetime product service transfer fee. They said this was a new policy as of May 2009. I obviously balked at these charges since the unit is defective and within the warranty period and shouldn't be subject to an additional charge to someone who's paid for lifetime service...

I went to Tivo's website and don't see any updates to their warranty or product service agreement that calls these out these changes nor was I notified by mail or email about any policy changes (which is called out in the product service agreement). Anyone else noticed these changes or been subject to them?


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

If this is true it stinks for everyone. I am not defending the policy change however there are a couple of things you must remember. First is that the Lifetime service was the lifetime of the box, so it actually didn't make sense that before you could get it repaired (which I bet generally means replaced with a refurbished box) without having to pay anything for the service. The next thing is that this is not the type of policy that is spelled out to end users and it doesn't have to be. They don't have to offer the repair service at all.
Now the question is, is this a good move for Tivo? It certainly makes a lot of sense because the lifetime service was the lifetime of the box and if they have to replace it there is an issue there. However, the general consumer still can't identify that fact generally. (Tivo must price the Lifetime service based upon the expected lifetime of the box, but allowing it to be continually replaced causes an issue there.) This in general causes a nightmare. Maybe it is about time that Tivo does away with the service fee and does more like what Moxi has done (pay full upfront or space out payment options). If they need a revenue stream beyond that, they should have a service to avoid all the little ads they are sticking around everywhere.


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

The $49 was probably a "labor" charge -- the warranty only covers parts for 90 days to 1 year.

The "lifetime transfer fee" might make sense for an out of warranty unit, but I don't think they should be charging it in warranty.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

socrplyr said:


> Maybe it is about time that Tivo does away with the service fee and does more like what Moxi has done (pay full upfront or space out payment options).


I really hope not. The TiVo subscriber fees will most likely guarantee continued service even if the current TiVo company folds. Sevice is still available for the ReplayTV even though the various companies that offered the products have been dead and buried for sometime. When RTV finally folded, their service was picked up by D&M and then DirectTV.

For Moxi... what prevents them from just picking up sticks and moving on if they decide they can't make a go of it. Without thousands of subscribers sending in their service fees it will be a lot less likely anyone would be interested in picking up their fallen business.

The OP states his unit is under warranty. If so I think it unfair he has to pay the service transfer fee. If TiVo can/will not repair his original box and would rather replace it that is their prerogative under the warranty, but service should still be tied to either a box repaired or replaced under warranty. Anything else would come awfully close to breach of warranty IMHO.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Ah, I missed the in warranty part of his post. Yes I fully agree that if it is within Tivo's warranty it should not have a transfer fee (but I understand Tivo wanting to change on if it is not within its warranty).

In response to solutionsetc, I fully understand your implications if Tivo went out of business. However, if Tivo can be profitable without it, then they aren't going to go bankrupt. Now, I myself, don't expect my Tivo to work if Tivo goes bankrupt. It would be nice if it did, but I don't expect it to. As for the continual income source, I agree that it would help increase the value of Tivo's assets in the event of a bankruptcy, but it doesn't help the compete with others NOW. Also, just because someone else picks up the rights to give service to Tivos in the future that doesn't mean they have to honor lifetime service contracts made by Tivo. Thus all Tivo has to do to keep the value is have the box and the service paid for independently.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

socrplyr said:


> just because someone else picks up the rights to give service to Tivos in the future that doesn't mean they have to honor lifetime service contracts made by Tivo.


No... but in the case of ReplayTV's acquisitions, lifetime subscriptions are still honored. Which makes sense as lifetime isn't really lifetime. But with no new boxes, the legacy user base will eventually thin out to the point where the service costs more to offer than the revenue it generates. I am curious just how many active subscribers they have left at this point.

I don't see TiVo going away; it's ownership/business model may change (and may have to), but it is too strong a brand to just disappear.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DHP said:


> I was getting ready to get an exchanged product (within one year warranty) and they tried to charge me two fees. One is a $49 "exchange fee" and the other is a $199 lifetime product service transfer fee. They said this was a new policy as of May 2009.


TiVo, this is an absolutely wrong policy within warranty.

OP - if they insist then tell them to fix the unit you have if you insist on going with them fixing it.

I will also say though that if it was my DVR - I would swap out the hard drive myself for say 100$ for a 1TB and not even deal with TiVo over the bad hard drive.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I hope this isn't true. If it is, it is absolutely ludicrous.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

DHP said:


> So, just had an interesting call with Tivo support.
> 
> I have a tivo Series 3 that has stuttering, lagging menus, and rebooting problems. I've divorced an external drive and removed the cable cards and it still has the above problems which tivo service agrees is probably the internal drive. I was getting ready to get an exchanged product (within one year warranty) and they tried to charge me two fees. One is a $49 "exchange fee" and the other is a $199 lifetime product service transfer fee. They said this was a new policy as of May 2009. I obviously balked at these charges since the unit is defective and within the warranty period and shouldn't be subject to an additional charge to someone who's paid for lifetime service...


I think it's a good idea that you didn't commit to any exchange and charges that would be incurred because of the exchange at this time. Have you called Tivo again to see if the same "policy change" is reported by other customer service reps? Maybe the first CSR was way off track concerning your warranty period?



socrplyr said:


> If they need a revenue stream beyond that, they should have a service to avoid all the little ads they are sticking around everywhere.


Really? An ad comment in a Lifetime/Warranty question? Was that helpful in any way?


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## geoelectric (Apr 7, 2009)

If this is true, how awesome that they've given themselves a $200 incentive to not fix any boxes, and just swap them out instead. 

Given that the $200 lifetime xfer fee is a wholly arbitrary fee meant just to limit their exposure on a lifetime sub, this would be an especially greedy move for them.

I'm hoping it's just a simple mistake. If not, however, this combined with the general craptitude of the recent hardware support combined with what seems to be a larger number of hardware-breaking software updates would basically spell the end of Tivo love for me.


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## pdxsam (Mar 3, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo, this is an absolutely wrong policy within warranty.
> 
> OP - if they insist then tell them to fix the unit you have if you insist on going with them fixing it.
> 
> I will also say though that if it was my DVR - I would swap out the hard drive myself for say 100$ for a 1TB and not even deal with TiVo over the bad hard drive.


I agree with you on the larger drive, however, if it's not the drive and is something on the motherboard, he's still stuck with the fees.

I'd need to re-read my warranty papers but I thought it said 90 days straight up exchange. To one yr 49 fee.

I'd say you got a shady CSR. I've called Tivo a few times over the years of my owning Tivo's and always got a mixed bag. It's just the way it is with customer service peeps. Also, depending on the company that Tivo has contracted out to for CSR service, it could be they have a bonus structure based on what they can "add on". A buddy's son worked for an HP call center for a while and they were always big on the "upsell".


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

orangeboy said:


> Have you called Tivo again to see if the same "policy change" is reported by other customer service reps?


Best advice yet in this thread! :up::up::up:


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I wonder if the op has a TiVo Series3 (as indicated) or a TivoHD?

I suppose it is possible that TiVo no longer has replacements of the older Series3 model available. Thus far, free lifetime transfers have only been permitted for replacements of the same make and model.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> I wonder if the op has a TiVo Series3 (as indicated) or a TivoHD?
> 
> I suppose it is possible that TiVo no longer has replacements of the older Series3 model available. Thus far, free lifetime transfers have only been permitted for replacements of the same make and model.


good point - that could be where the one CSR went wrong - the system told him to get a 199$ fee after the two different models were input.

Still it is TiVo Inc.'s responsibility to do the in warranty fix and that would include still having lifetime on the box at no extra charge afyer the fix is done, even if it meant swapping models because of something on TiVo's end.

Of course we assume the OP is right that the series 3 is an in warranty repair = could be the CSR just offered the "warranty" swap to help out even a refurb outside of warranty or something. Would not know for sure without more details.


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## newskilz (Jul 11, 2008)

In any case, wouldn't (ideally at least) any fine print in the warranty and lifetime service at the time of purchase be the governing "contract", and therefore not subject to any "new" terms since the terms should be the terms at time of purchase? In other words part of the purchase agreement? Course there are always those little qualifiers that may not make this so, like "Subject to change at any time without notice" though even that would still be a change after the fact. Anyhew.....


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## cyber999 (Apr 29, 2009)

i called customer service. No $199 fee to transfer lifetime subscription when DVR is being replaced during warranty periord


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

cyber999 said:


> i called customer service. No $199 fee to transfer lifetime subscription when DVR is being replaced during warranty periord


What about after though...?


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

If the box is out of warranty, and it fails... I'd guess you have the option of getting it repaired by a third party (or by TiVo if TiVo is willing to repair it; as opposed to a refurb replacement - which is doubtful), or fixing it yourself if it is a hard drive issue.

Otherwise the lifetime of your box is over and so is your subscription.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> What about after though...?


If the TiVo is replaced under any legitimate warranty (like say Best Buy 3 year extended warranty) the Lifetime Service will be xfered.

Sending any TiVo out of warranty back to TiVo for repair (replacement) costs $149 and the lifetime service that was on that box will be xfered by TiVo to the replacement unit, even if its not the same model. There may be some time limit on how long you can do that, if you had a lifetime Series 1 I don't know if TiVo would still xfer the Lifetime service to a referb Series 2 (assuming they don't have any more Series 1 TiVos).

TiVo could have changed the policy a few months ago but I would i would be surprised if they did that and nobody on this form noticed.


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## drey (Jul 21, 2008)

OP, you probably misunderstood. The charge is for labor, not for Lifetime Service transfer. Or you just talked to a tech who didn't know what he was doing.

*Please change the title of your thread to eliminate confusion. TiVo DOES NOT charge a fee to transfer a Lifetime Service for under warranty or out of warranty repair.*


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

drey said:


> OP, you probably misunderstood. The charge is for labor, not for Lifetime Service transfer. Or you just talked to a tech who didn't know what he was doing.
> 
> *Please change the title of your thread to eliminate confusion. TiVo DOES NOT charge a fee to transfer a Lifetime Service for under warranty or out of warranty repair.*


I think you misread his post. He knows the $49 charge is for labor. But TiVo wants to charge him $199 on top of that.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> I think you misread his post. He knows the $49 charge is for labor. But TiVo wants to charge him $199 on top of that.


Like others have said, it seems more correct to say "He understood the TiVo rep to be saying he had to pay another $199" for lifetime transfer. I'm sure that his understanding, or the TiVo rep's understanding, is wrong (at least based on the info he gave here.).


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

lessd said:


> If the TiVo is replaced under any legitimate warranty (like say Best Buy 3 year extended warranty) the Lifetime Service will be xfered.


Best Buy was losing money on their Extended Service Plans for TiVos. They don't offer it any longer, however they will honor any existing ones.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Another mention of the fee (although his Tivo was out of warranty)



John Wilson said:


> My TiVo CS rep had to escalate this to Level 2 and promised me a call back. He left a message when he called back and said that Level 2 recommended an exchange. I called back, got a different CS who looked up my case number and explained that TiVo could not help me fix it over the phone and they wanted to do an exchange. *I was then informed that since I have a Lifetime servce on this box, it would cost me $148 exchange for refurbed box PLUS $200 to transfer the lifetime service. WTF?*


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Out of warranty, this makes a lot of sense. The original terms of the lifetime service would have resulted in a $300 fee to "transfer" the lifetime service from a dead, out of warranty box to a new box (i.e., buying a new lifetime subscription). Given that there aren't competitors willing to offer better for less, I cannot imagine why anyone thinks that these aren't fair prices for what you're expecting to receive.


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## drey (Jul 21, 2008)

bkdtv said:


> I think you misread his post. He knows the $49 charge is for labor. But TiVo wants to charge him $199 on top of that.


That is simply one rep who doesn't know what he was doing. Stating that TiVo charges a fee as a fact of a new policy is simply wrong.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

I never heard of a company charging anything for something under warranty. I had tv repaired for free, and even exchanged for free. The replacement better be perfect, if i encounter this.


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## cyber999 (Apr 29, 2009)

Videodrome said:


> I never heard of a company charging anything for something under warranty. I had tv repaired for free, and even exchanged for free. The replacement better be perfect, if i encounter this.


Tivo warranty parts and labor free for the first 90 days. From 91 day to 1 year parts are free but labor is not


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Historically TiVo has never charged to transfer license to a refurb repaired box, even out of warranty.

Whether it's right or wrong for them to do, I'd still like clarification on this policy from Tivo. It impacts my decision to purchase lifetime on my 3 year old series 3....


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## drey (Jul 21, 2008)

Guys, once again. The user is new to these forums and he clearly misunderstood what the rep was talking about. He stated the rumor as the fact.

And for the 100th time, *TIVO does not charge to transfer lifetime from one unit to another*.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

drey said:


> Guys, once again. The user is new to these forums and he clearly misunderstood what the rep was talking about. He stated the rumor as the fact.
> 
> And for the 100th time, *TIVO does not charge to transfer lifetime from one unit to another*.


And how do you know that TiVo has not changed this policy in the last few months ??


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

drey said:


> And for the 100th time, *TIVO does not charge to transfer lifetime from one unit to another*.


Considering that this is your 80th post I doubt that you've said this 100 times. At least I hope not since it is blatently wrong.

TiVo *may* not charge for a transfer done under a warranty replacement, but they certainly do in all other cases.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jrm01 said:


> TiVo *may* not charge for a transfer done under a warranty replacement, but they certainly do in all other cases.


If the TiVo is replaced under any legitimate warranty (like say Best Buy 3 year extended warranty (not sold anymore as was pointed out) or any other extended warranty) the Lifetime Service will be xfered.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

drey said:


> Guys, once again. The user is new to these forums and he clearly misunderstood what the rep was talking about. He stated the rumor as the fact.
> 
> And for the 100th time, *TIVO does not charge to transfer lifetime from one unit to another*.


we are trying to see if TiVo changed that policy as the OP said the CSR informed him. Clearly we do not know for sure - but just as clearly no one outside of TiVo knows for sure either. Historically TiVo has not charged but you might be taken more seriously if you as well were not claiming as fact something you could not KNOW as fact


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

jrm01 said:


> TiVo *may* not charge for a transfer done under a warranty replacement, but they certainly do in all other cases.


TiVo has never charged for out-of-warranty transfers to refurbished replacements of the *same make and model*, ordered from TiVo.


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## drey (Jul 21, 2008)

lessd said:


> And how do you know that TiVo has not changed this policy in the last few months ??


Because those who work for TiVo have never heard about this new "policy". I would assume TiVo would told their own employees about new charges, don't you think?

I also have difficult time believing someone who has only two posts. On top of that, not a single person was able to confirm that.

The bottom line, this is not a TiVo policy and I really doubt it ever will be. And just to be crystal clear, that applies only to the same type of units (Series 2 to Series 2, Series 3 to Series 3, TiVo HD to TiVo HD). If someone is transferring Lifetime from Series 2 to Series 3, than the charge will be applied.

-- Andrey


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

drey said:


> I also have difficult time believing someone who has only two posts. On top of that, not a single person was able to confirm that.


Are we arguing about the transfer fee applying to under warranty or out of warranty? Because I never heard of this fee period and have already posted a confirmation of it.


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## DHP (Dec 8, 2006)

OK - I'm the OP and have been a loyal customer of tivo's original box since 1999 and have 2 old series 1's and two Series 3s (transfered the lifetime service from the series 1s to the Series 3s). I received a new replacement Series 3 last November for the same problem (hard drive problem). When I called tech support, they agreed that the unit probably needed to be swapped out. They first were going to charge me the $49 fee which I objected to as I hadn't been charged that fee before (last November). I was also going to do an advanced exchange and would be charged the fee to my credit card until I returned the swapped unit. After being put on hold by the CSR regarding the $49 charge he came back and said they would waive that charge. he then went through the charges and there was a $199 "extra" charge after the credit card hold for a lifetime Service Transfer. He called this a new policy as of May 1 no matter the reason for exchanging a unit. I asked to speak with a more senior person as I was appalled by this apparent new policy. I then spoke with a manager who said that indeed this was a new policy as of May 1. I put my wife on the phone with him who is a litigator and she asked all sorts of clarifying questions and he continued to confirm everything I've said here.

I agree that if Tivo is charging this fee and there is no way around it, then weaknees and others will see an increase in their business because these drives seem to fail pretty regularly and it would be cheaper to replace the drive myself than to pay the transfer fee...

Would love it if the manager I was talking to was indeed wrong and will call again with perhaps a new case # to see if I get another outcome that is better.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

This just doesn't make sense. If a unit is being sent to TiVo for "repair", whether in or out of warranty, it's been TiVo's choice, not the customer, to exchange the unit as a convenience to TiVo. To tack on a service transfer charge seems absurd.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

bicker said:


> Out of warranty, this makes a lot of sense. The original terms of the lifetime service would have resulted in a $300 fee to "transfer" the lifetime service from a dead, out of warranty box to a new box (i.e., buying a new lifetime subscription). Given that there aren't competitors willing to offer better for less, I cannot imagine why anyone thinks that these aren't fair prices for what you're expecting to receive.


I disagree. For this to make sense, TiVo should stop offering out-of-warranty "repairs" at all. If they offer to "repair" a unit, then it isn't dead. If they decide to change the physical unit, that's their choice, and the customer should not have to pay for it.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lafos said:


> This just doesn't make sense. If a unit is being sent to TiVo for "repair", whether in or out of warranty, it's been TiVo's choice, not the customer, to exchange the unit as a convenience to TiVo. To tack on a service transfer charge seems absurd.


So you're suggesting TiVo just send the box back, unrepairable? They will do that if that is what the customer prefers. It is the customer's choice, not TiVo's.



lafos said:


> I disagree. For this to make sense, TiVo should stop offering out-of-warranty "repairs" at all.


That's utterly ridiculous. That doesn't serve TiVo; it doesn't serve TiVo's customers; in the end, it seems to me that it only serves your personal animosity. Why do you hate TiVo and TiVo owners so much?



lafos said:


> If they offer to "repair" a unit, then it isn't dead. If they decide to change the physical unit, that's their choice, and the customer should not have to pay for it.


Again, that's utterly ridiculous, and totally devoid of relevance to the real-world, the way things really work. TiVo can continue to do what they've been doing, or increase the charges for what they do, introducing new charges, if they wish, because none of what we're talking about is part of any guaranteed forever pricing. The only thing that determines what TiVo should and shouldn't do in this regard is what is best for their owners, long term.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Again, that's utterly ridiculous, and totally devoid of relevance to the real-world, the way things really work. TiVo can continue to do what they've been doing, or increase the charges for what they do, introducing new charges, if they wish, because none of what we're talking about is part of any guaranteed forever pricing. The only thing that determines what TiVo should and shouldn't do in this regard is what is best for their owners, long term.


I agree that TiVo can change what it charges for out of warranty repairs but this new policy has no real world relavance.
In the real world the vast majority of repairs sent back to TiVo are DVRs in need of a new hard drive. TiVo forgoes simply repairing the hard drive and instead replaces wit ha refurbed unit that presumedly has been through a series of checks to make sure all the components work. That has been seen as a reasonable expediency by TiVo as it saves the extra days work of running the unit shipped to them through the checks before returning to the customer. Still this a call that TiVo makes and *is not explicitly requested by the customer* Therefore TiVo is forcing the lifetime swap from one box to the other outside of a customer's wishes. To insist on a high transfer fee has no merit in the real world.
If they want to tack on an administrative cost for the transfer and say their repair work takes x$ in actual costs and they want to add a margin for out of warranty - that is reasonable in the real world, but that is out of warranty repair.

now for the OP we have a case of "IN WARRANTY REPAIR" and for the OP to get the in warranty repair TiVo is forcing
1. Swap to a new refurb for what is very likely a ahrd drive only issue. TiVo has not done anything to verify a swap is the only remedy
2. While forcing that swap, TiVo is forcing the customer to pay for that swap.

what did the customer ask for "in warranty" - 
1. Fix my DVR model that I own right now so that it records and plays back without stuttering.

the 2 scenarios simply do not jibe in the real world and thus the new policy is completely without merit for in warranty work.
For out of warranty TiVo should just suit up and say they no longer wish to do out of warranty work as they do not want to take the time to truly diagnose a problem and determine if it is hard drive only or more to the point if the mainboard needs to be replaced thus forcing a need to get a new sub or move the sub to the new TSN the mainboard replacement requires.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

I said in my post 31 that TiVo could have changed their policy, the OP said they did on May 1st. I have not confirmed that. (that does not mean it not true) Did OP stumbled on a unpublished new TiVo repair policy or did someone at TiVo made an error. If its not an error this board should light up with upset people quickly having to pay $199 extra for fixing a Lifetime TiVo as opposed to a TiVo on contract.
I am sure someone will post a confirmation of this new policy or that this was an error, the rest is just speculation.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i recently stumbled on the tivo policy about lifetime transfers- there was a clause in it that said something like "we will swap lifetime to a new unit repaired under warrety or 3rd party service plan but we can at any time decide to charge a fee for that"

let me go search...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/policies/tivoserviceagreement.html



> 14. Product Lifetime Subscriptions. A "Product Lifetime Subscription" to the TiVo service covers the life of the TiVo DVR you buy - not the life of the subscriber. ..... Because a Product Lifetime Subscription is linked to a particular TiVo DVR, you may not transfer it to any other TiVo DVR unless all the following conditions apply: (a) the TiVo DVR is being replaced pursuant to the manufacturer's or retailer's warranty; and (b) the TiVo DVR being replaced is of the same make and model as the replacement TiVo DVR; and (c) you provide us with a proof of replacement by the manufacturer or retailer. TiVo reserves the right to charge you a fee to transfer Product Lifetime Service from a TiVo DVR being replaced to a replacement TiVo DVR.


(I added the underline)

website says they were last updated august 2008.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I agree that TiVo can change what it charges for out of warranty repairs but this new policy has no real world relavance.
> In the real world the vast majority of repairs sent back to TiVo are DVRs in need of a new hard drive. TiVo forgoes simply repairing the hard drive and instead replaces wit ha refurbed unit that presumedly has been through a series of checks to make sure all the components work. That has been seen as a reasonable expediency by TiVo as it saves the extra days work of running the unit shipped to them through the checks before returning to the customer. Still this a call that TiVo makes and *is not explicitly requested by the customer* Therefore TiVo is forcing the lifetime swap from one box to the other outside of a customer's wishes. To insist on a high transfer fee has no merit in the real world.


Well, terms like "has no real world relevance" and "no merit in the real world" are rather vague and non-committal -- those claims, themselves, if pinned-down to some concrete meaningful-ness, would probably be invalid.

The reality is that the customer is in completely control over whether they accept or decline TiVo's offer to repair and/or transfer service. TiVo cannot force the customer to do anything. Instead, TiVo could simply return the broken box and let the customer pursue repair themselves.

I do agree (and alluded to this earlier) that it is probably not currently in TiVo's best interests to pursue this approach. However, they're surely entitled to do so if they wish.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

$199 is a reasonable fee to transfer LS, if tivo is replacing a S2 or S1 unit with a S3 unit. I hope that's the new policy.

Tivo has a policy to repair units, in and out of warranty. Tivo has decided it's more efficient to ship out a refurbished unit. The customers broken unit is repaired to sent to a different customer. This results in faster service and is easier for tivo. Some (most?) customers would be willing to wait for a real repair on their unit as opposed to paying $199. At a minimum tivo should be required to disclose the fact that they won't fix broken units and a $199 charge will be charged to LS customers.

Bicker-- I'm not sure tivo is allowed to charge the LS transfer fee for warranty repairs. Under some circumstances a mfg may be required to repair broken products for a period of time. I don't know if a relatively inexpensive consumer electronic product is an example. I don't think a swapping out a refurbished product would qualify if there is a $199 extra fee associated with the "repair". Sorry but I don't think tivo can charge a LS transfer fee for any repair that's required either due to warranty status or due to a requirement that tivo repair a product.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> $199 is a reasonable fee to transfer LS, if tivo is replacing a S2 or S1 unit with a S3 unit. I hope that's the new policy.


That would be great; I'd buy a new TiVo HD tomorrow if that were the case.

It is such a good deal, AFAIC, that I cannot imagine that there is any such new policy.



lew said:


> At a minimum tivo should be required to disclose the fact that they won't fix broken units and a $199 charge will be charged to LS customers.


As far as I can tell, nothing about what TiVo does say about this service is legitimate rationale for assuming that that is not the case. TiVo should not be required to "disclose" anything that in no way contradicts the description of the service they offer.



lew said:


> Bicker-- I'm not sure tivo is allowed to charge the LS transfer fee for warranty repairs.


My assumption, earlier, was that they were *not* permitted, if the device was still under warranty. I haven't seen anyone post anything indicating that they believed differently. I think we all agree on that score.



lew said:


> Under some circumstances a mfg may be required to repair broken products for a period of time.


I believe you're referring to "suitability for use" standards. I suppose some states might have more specific laws, but generally these things are determined on a case-by-case basis, and generally "suitability for use" only comes into play is there is *no* manufacturer's warranty. The existence of the warranty conceivably represents a mutual acceptance of the time frame where "suitability for use" applies (though there is no doubt that an activist state consumer advocate office could push manufacturers to provide longer coverage if they feel that the period is excessively short -- I suspect the manufacturer could prevail against such advocacy, but would generally not bother to due to the potential bad PR -- in the end, these issues basically boil down to who can manipulate the media best towards their own perspective).


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> That would be great; I'd buy a new TiVo HD tomorrow if that were the case.
> 
> It is such a good deal, AFAIC, that I cannot imagine that there is any such new policy.


 Isn't the MSD pricing for LS $300? A $100 discount, in exchange for getting an old unit out of the grid could make sense, particularly if tivo thinks a S3 unit provides a better revenue stream with extras (PPV)


> As far as I can tell, nothing about what TiVo does say about this service is legitimate rationale for assuming that that is not the case. TiVo should not be required to "disclose" anything that in no way contradicts the description of the service they offer.
> 
> My assumption, earlier, was that they were *not* permitted, if the device was still under warranty. I haven't seen anyone post anything indicating that they believed differently. I think we all agree on that score.


 The OP's unit was less then a year old, the $49 was a labor charge yet tivo wants to charge a $199 LS transfer fee. I don't think this would be permitted which leads me to think we're missing something.



> I believe you're referring to "suitability for use" standards. I suppose some states might have more specific laws, but generally these things are determined on a case-by-case basis, and generally "suitability for use" only comes into play is there is *no* manufacturer's warranty. The existence of the warranty conceivably represents a mutual acceptance of the time frame where "suitability for use" applies (though there is no doubt that an activist state consumer advocate office could push manufacturers to provide longer coverage if they feel that the period is excessively short -- I suspect the manufacturer could prevail against such advocacy, but would generally not bother to due to the potential bad PR -- in the end, these issues basically boil down to who can manipulate the media best towards their own perspective).


Products generally have a period of time with full warranty coverage, a longer period with partial warranty coverage (parts only) and a still longer time period in which out of warranty repairs are provided and/or replacement parts are sold. I'll speculate at least some "activist state consumer advocates"es would give *tivo the option* of repairing the product or swapping LS at no charge.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Again, that's utterly ridiculous, and totally devoid of relevance to the real-world, the way things really work. TiVo can continue to do what they've been doing, or increase the charges for what they do, introducing new charges, if they wish, because none of what we're talking about is part of any guaranteed forever pricing. The only thing that determines what TiVo should and shouldn't do in this regard is what is best for their owners, long term.





bicker said:


> Well, terms like "has no real world relevance" and "no merit in the real world" are rather vague and non-committal -- those claims, themselves, if pinned-down to some concrete meaningful-ness, would probably be invalid.


well I was just working with your theme 

What needs to not be lost sight of in this thread - it is TiVo initiating the swap of one DVR for another. TiVo has done no work to ascertain if the swap is really needed or if a simple hard drive replacement would fix the original DVRs problems.

So TiVo is insisting on the box swap in all cases and then insisting on the customer paying for that if they have lifetime versus 49$ to replace a hard drive which would likely fix 90% or more of the DVRs sent in. now if TiVo did add in some series of tests to determine that the mainboard had gone bad and the unit was out of warranty then the charge can be seen as reasonable.

This boils down to TiVo insisting on a significant fee that is actually NOT NEEDED the majority of the time. To do so for an in warranty DVR is truly objectionable.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well I was just working with your theme
> 
> What needs to not be lost sight of in this thread - it is TiVo initiating the swap of one DVR for another. TiVo has done no work to ascertain if the swap is really needed or if a simple hard drive replacement would fix the original DVRs problems.
> 
> ...


For the Series 3 platform TiVos I think the mother board and drive is replaced, as refurb TiVo have a unique Service number ie 652-0011-XXXX-XXXX as apposed to a new TiVo service number of 652-0001-xxxx-xxxx. (and the manf date on the drive is recent) I guess they could just change out the PROM chip of the old mother board but i would guess they send out the TiVos to a standard repair service. TiVo is now offering a used but not referb TiVo for $250, I don't know how they test that unit or if any parts are replaced.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lessd said:


> For the Series 3 platform TiVos I think the mother board and drive is replaced, as refurb TiVo have a unique Service number ie 652-0011-XXXX-XXXX as apposed to a new TiVo service number of 652-0001-xxxx-xxxx. (and the manf date on the drive is recent) I guess they could just change out the PROM chip of the old mother board but i would guess they send out the TiVos to a standard repair service. TiVo is now offering a used but not referb TiVo for $250, I don't know how they test that unit or if any parts are replaced.


interesting- but maybe they have a way to reprogram the prom with a new serial number while it's on that board?

seems kind of wastefull to just replace all the boards when the vast majority of main boards are probably fine as usually it's the hard drive.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

I really don't think TiVo's $200 service transfer fee will hold up in court with a box that was replaced (or serviced) under warranty.

Look at it like this... you bought a brand new car, and with it a 5 year service contract for routine maintenance and service for $1500.00. Later on, within the original manufacturers warranty period, the entire drive train falls out on the freeway at 60mph. The manufacturer/dealer decides it is more cost effective to total out the car and replace it rather than install a new engine, transmission, etc. They now tell you you'll have to pay $1000.00 to transfer your service agreement to the new vehicle.

Or... you buy a new cell phone with with a prepaid service contract of $300. The phone fails within the warranty period and is replaced by the carrier/manufacturer. But, they tell you that the prepaid minutes you bought are now void and you'll have to pay $200 to restore that to the new phone.

All of these scenarios are B.S.! While I am no lawyer, I am reasonably certain no court would condone this practice.

Now... for out of warranty units that have failed, TiVo has the right to declare it "end of lifed" and charge whatever they want to transfer service, or to deny transfer of service to another box entirely. In this case it may or may not be more cost effective to have the box "repaired" by a third party to avoid service transfer fees.

But not being able to restore the box to its previously serviceable state within the warranty period is, in my mind, breach of warranty.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lessd said:


> For the Series 3 platform TiVos I think the mother board and drive is replaced, as refurb TiVo have a unique Service number ie 652-0011-XXXX-XXXX as apposed to a new TiVo service number of 652-0001-xxxx-xxxx. (and the manf date on the drive is recent) I guess they could just change out the PROM chip of the old mother board but i would guess they send out the TiVos to a standard repair service. TiVo is now offering a used but not referb TiVo for $250, I don't know how they test that unit or if any parts are replaced.


umm what they do now is swap for a refurb like you just said. The point is that many repairs do not need a new mainboard or swap of the box as a simple hard drive replace would fix it. No one had any real problem with swapping the box quickly for a refurb with a different TSN in warranty when the lifetime was transferred over without the 199$ fee. Now that a fee is attached to the transfer though, it begs the question - was the swap to a refurb DVR really needed and how was that determined.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> Look at it like this... you bought a brand new car, and with it a 5 year service contract for routine maintenance and service for $1500.00. Later on, within the original manufacturers warranty period, the entire drive train falls out on the freeway at 60mph. The manufacturer/dealer decides it is more cost effective to total out the car and replace it rather than install a new engine, transmission, etc. They now tell you you'll have to pay $1000.00 to transfer your service agreement to the new vehicle.


actually it is more like you bring in a car that is sputtering and stalling out and without even having a mechanic look at the car the dealer says they will swap the car out for a used car and it will cost you 1,000 to transfer the service agreement to that car.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

I just called TiVo and spoke to a CSR named Chrissy

She told me this is their policy:

A new TiVo has a full 90 day warranty, there is no charge for replacement and they will transfer lifetime for free.

If it dies between 90 days and 1 year, there is a $49 replacement fee and no charge for replacement and they will transfer lifetime for free.

If it dies after year 1 and and you've had lifetime service for less than 3 years, there is a $149 replacement fee and they do NOT CHARGE a lifetime fee.

They ONLY charge the lifetime transfer fee if you've had lifetime for more than 3 years.

She confirmed that if I add lifetime to my 3 year old tivo, and it dies in 2 years and 11 months, no charge to transfer lifetime to the $149 replacement.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> actually it is more like you bring in a car that is sputtering and stalling out and without even having a mechanic look at the car the dealer says they will swap the car out for a used car and it will cost you 1,000 to transfer the service agreement to that car.


Well... I tried to make my scenario jut a bit more positive, but the concept is the same. 

Another way to look at it is as a discriminatory practice against lifetime subscribers. If you have any other service plan, a box that has failed within months 4 through 12 would have there box and service restored for $50.00.

If you purchased lifetime, TiVo is now trying to say it will be $250.00. I think you could easily make the point in any court that this is unfair business practice.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Adam1115 said:


> I just called TiVo and spoke to a CSR named Chrissy
> 
> She told me this is their policy:


Good. So I guess we can all put our tar and feathers back on the top shelf in the garage. 

Maybe you could give Chrissy's phone number to the OP.

BTW... did she sound cute?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> I just called TiVo and spoke to a CSR named Chrissy
> 
> She told me this is their policy:
> 
> ...


Well the 3 years on free lifetime Xfer is new information (for me anyways) and its good to know.

Thanks for your time in making the call it helps all of us know what is happening, I just wonder what started on May 1 of this year that the OP was referring to.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> Isn't the MSD pricing for LS $300? A $100 discount, in exchange for getting an old unit out of the grid could make sense, particularly if tivo thinks a S3 unit provides a better revenue stream with extras (PPV)


Maybe someone from TiVo will read this and make me a _special _offer. 



lew said:


> The OP's unit was less then a year old


But greater than 90 days, and that's all that matters in this regard, for the reasons I alluded to earlier.



lew said:


> the $49 was a labor charge yet tivo wants to charge a $199 LS transfer fee. I don't think this would be permitted which leads me to think we're missing something.


Undoubtedly. We practically never get the whole story, here online; at best, we only get half the story, and typically, not even _that _much.



lew said:


> Products generally have a period of time with full warranty coverage, a longer period with partial warranty coverage (parts only) and a still longer time period in which out of warranty repairs are provided and/or replacement parts are sold.


No, not necessarily. Some have all those things, others only have zero, one or two of those things.



lew said:


> I'll speculate at least some "activist state consumer advocates"es would give *tivo the option* of repairing the product or swapping LS at no charge.


Yup, and in red states probably will just let the 90 day warranty stand as the entirety of what TiVo is obligated to do, as is proper.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> What needs to not be lost sight of in this thread - it is TiVo initiating the swap of one DVR for another. TiVo has done no work to ascertain if the swap is really needed or if a simple hard drive replacement would fix the original DVRs problems.


Well, let's be clear: In the scenario we've been discussing late in this thread, the customer determined that their out-of-warranty DVR didn't work anymore, and decided to have TiVo provide out-of-warranty service. (For the umpteenth time, we are not talking about the in-warranty scenario.) Let's not lose sight of *that*, in this thread.



ZeoTiVo said:


> So TiVo is insisting on the box swap in all cases


No, no. Only in the cases where the customer decides to avail themselves of TiVo out-of-warranty service. That's the customer's choice. And if they don't like the terms, they can choose another approach.



ZeoTiVo said:


> now if TiVo did add in some series of tests to determine that the mainboard had gone bad and the unit was out of warranty then the charge can be seen as reasonable.


The charge is reasonable either way.



ZeoTiVo said:


> This boils down to TiVo insisting on a significant fee that is actually NOT NEEDED the majority of the time. To do so for an in warranty DVR is truly objectionable.


And non-sequitur with regard to out-of-warranty service.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DHP said:


> I was getting ready to get an exchanged product (within one year warranty) and they tried to charge me two fees. One is a $49 "exchange fee" and the other is a $199 lifetime product service transfer fee.





bicker said:


> Well, let's be clear: In the scenario we've been discussing late in this thread, the customer determined that their out-of-warranty DVR didn't work anymore, and decided to have TiVo provide out-of-warranty service. (For the umpteenth time, we are not talking about the in-warranty scenario.) Let's not lose sight of *that*, in this thread.


NO - you do not get to just change things I am talking about and then say that solves it. The OP started with TiVo CLEARLY charging the transfer fee for In warranty (90 day to 1 year) work and that is what I have been talking about and what should not be buried in this thread.

so in the future - if you want to quote me and reply - please be good enough to reply to what I am talking about versus what you say I was supposed to be talking and therefore wrong.

according to Adam115 and a CSR named Chrissy TiVo seems to think that transfer fee should not be charged for in warranty up to 1 year either and anyone getting hit with it should escalate as the CSR is wrong in that case. the policy he recounted is the one that has been in place for sometime. It certainly should stay the same for any TiVo with lifetime less than a year old.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> NO - you do not get to just change things I am talking about and then say that solves it. The OP started with TiVo CLEARLY charging the transfer fee for In warranty (90 day to 1 year) work and that is what I have been talking about and what should not be buried in this thread.


The warranty is 90 days, not 90 days to 1 year.

There has been no conflict about in-warranty repair. None. Zippo. It would be pretty silly to argue about it, because there is no one willing to argue the other side.

So the only issues are out-of-warranty service, itself, and whether you have any documentary evidence that there is a "1 year" *warranty*. I bet you don't.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> The warranty is 90 days, not 90 days to 1 year.
> 
> There has been no conflict about in-warranty repair. None. Zippo. It would be pretty silly to argue about it, because there is no one willing to argue the other side.
> 
> So the only issues are out-of-warranty service, itself, and whether you have any documentary evidence that there is a "1 year" *warranty*. I bet you don't.


I must be missing something. I always thought the warranty was 90 days parts and labor and one year parts only. Tivo is charging a flat $50 for labor. I'm not sure how tivo can justify charging an additional labor charge for the cost of transferring LS. The OP's repair was an in-warranty repair (for parts). It looks like there was an error and the transfer fee shouldn't have been charged. Looks like tivo implemented the new fee without properly setting up the system or reviewing the implications.


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## Jazhuis (Aug 30, 2006)

bicker said:


> The warranty is 90 days, not 90 days to 1 year.
> 
> There has been no conflict about in-warranty repair. None. Zippo. It would be pretty silly to argue about it, because there is no one willing to argue the other side.
> 
> So the only issues are out-of-warranty service, itself, and whether you have any documentary evidence that there is a "1 year" *warranty*. I bet you don't.


Sigh. Now you're just being blatantly antagonistic.

TiVo DVR Limited Warranty: 90 days free labor / one year parts exchange


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Jazhuis said:


> Sigh. Now you're just being blatantly antagonistic.
> 
> TiVo DVR Limited Warranty: 90 days free labor / one year parts exchange


He's just "keeping it real".


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> The warranty is 90 days, not 90 days to 1 year.
> So the only issues are out-of-warranty service, itself, and whether you have any documentary evidence that there is a "1 year" *warranty*. I bet you don't.





Jazhuis said:


> Sigh. Now you're just being blatantly antagonistic.
> 
> TiVo DVR Limited Warranty: 90 days free labor / one year parts exchange


You are wrong on this one Bicker. There is a 1 year warranty for parts and for TiVo to throw on a lifetime transfer fee for such warranty parts repair is completely wrong.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Yup, I sure am. I see that, now.

<= 1 year: in warranty
> 1 year: out of warranty

What I said with regard to out of warranty still applies... but just to TiVos older than 1 year old.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Yup, I sure am. I see that, now.
> 
> <= 1 year: in warranty
> > 1 year: out of warranty
> ...


Yes - after the warranty is over and if TiVo clearly tells the person upfront before they ship the unit back that there will be a lifetime transfer fee of x$ then that is their business decision to make. They would be wise to make it a 3 year mark before charging the transfer fee but that is solely from a customer relations perspective.

In fact they may actually do the customer a favor of making them find the cheaper option of just putting in a new hard drive themselves and getting more recording space to boot.


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

So the hardware has a full warranty for 90 days and a partial warranty for 1 year.

And according to CSR Chrissy the Lifetime Service has a 3 year warranty - presumably if the unit LS is attached to is serviced/repaired/replaced/exchanged by TiVo (or authorized/official/recognized warranty)


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

i guess if this happens, i will just tell the CSR , i am going to Moxi.


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## DHP (Dec 8, 2006)

I'm the OP and will give more facts as people seem to be going all over the place.

In December 2006 I bought a Series 3 HD Tivo and transfered my lifetime service from a 1999 Series 1 unit. On November 29,2008, I started to have problems with the hard drive and returned it to Tivo and paid an RMA fee of $158.71 (out of warranty) and an advance ship deposit of $852.15 which was returned to me when they received the faulty unit.

By December 13, 2008 (within two weeks of receiving the replacement unit) the second unit was having hard drive problems and I replaced this one with Tivo using the same process as above with NO RMA fee but did put a credit card hold for the advance ship deposit of $852.15. Going back to an RMA exchange email from 12/13/2008 it says no cost warranty within 90 days, labor fee+applicable sales taxes for 90+ days and less than 1 year. For 1 year+ or out of warranty it says current labor fee+parts fee+applicable taxes.

So now I am in May 2009 and am having the same problem as the previous two units. Does the replaced unit carry a 90 day/1 year warranty? If so, I should pay a labor fee+ sales taxes for 90+days and less than 1 year. I don't think I should be paying a lifetime transfer fees and didn't pay such a fee in December when I received the first faulty unit.


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## tivarino (Dec 22, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> I suppose it is possible that TiVo no longer has replacements of the older Series3 model available. Thus far, free lifetime transfers have only been permitted for replacements of the same make and model.


When my series 2 died while under Best Buy's extended warranty they no longer had the single tuner models like mine. They replaced my box with a dual tuner model, and TIVO moved my lifetime service at no charge and no problem.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

DHP said:


> I'm the OP
> 
> On November 29,2008, I ... paid an RMA fee of $158.71 (out of warranty)
> 
> ...


Only TiVo can say if the 11/29/08 refurb you paid 158.17 for was supplied with the standard 90 day/1 year warranty that comes with new units. If it did, I see no valid reason for them to charge you the service transfer fee.


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## TerriH (May 16, 2009)

I found this thread searching for whether there was a way to avoid this fee.

On May 12 we had the same problem as the original poster with our Series 3 (stuttering, lagging menus, and rebooting problems). After several calls to tech support and a visit from our cable company to replace the cable cards, the tech suggested that the unit needed to be replaced. This unit was a refurbished replacement unit from July 2008 after our new box purchased in Dec. 2006 stopped working. In 7/08, we paid for the refurbished unit (~$100), but the lifetime service was transferred with no charge.

We were given the same information as the original poster (new policy, $199 to transfer the LS). We tried 4 more times to escalate the issue and CS would not budge on the fee. When we asked if we would have to pay this fee again if the new replacement also stops working in 10 months, they stated that it would be charged no more than once every 3 years. When we asked whether we could see this in writing, the CSR directed me to the link listed in msg. #45 regarding Tivo's right to charge the fee. 

We stated that we had paid a $199 fee to transfer the lifetime service in 12/06 and after the tech searched for several minutes (stating the computer system only went back 6 months) we were told that that was an "upgrade" fee, not a "service transfer" fee and the 3-year time limit did not apply. All of the CSRs we spoke with this week stated this was a new policy from "corporate".

We're unsure of which direction we're going to go at the point, but were told that they would not waive the fee under any circumstances and that we could contact the corporate office to complain.

We're a bit disappointed to say the least, and are hesitant to pay $200 to transfer service to a product which has so far failed us twice in less than 3 years, but I wanted to add our experience to the discussion.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

TerriH said:


> We're a bit disappointed to say the least, and are hesitant to pay $200 to transfer service to a product which has so far failed us twice in less than 3 years, but I wanted to add our experience to the discussion.


Have you considered simply replacing the drive in your original TiVo? Total cost for that would be about $125. That eliminates the $150 replacement fee and it eliminates the need for a lifetime transfer.

Here what you would need:


 Western Digital WD10EVCS 1TB drive ($102) _<-- This will give you 157 HD hours_

 USB -> SATA adapter ($21.99)

 Computer running Windows XP or Windows Vista.
You would follow the instructions in Section V of the Storage Expansion FAQ.

If you are comfortable opening your computer and connecting the drive to a free SATA port, then there's no need for the external USB -> SATA adapter. The USB -> SATA adapter just eliminates the need to open your computer; it also allows you perform the upgrade on a laptop.

Any future drive replacement would cost you less, because you'd already have the USB -> SATA adapter. Hard drives get cheaper every year. In three or four years, you'll likely be able to buy a new 1TB drive for under $40.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

TerriH said:


> We stated that we had paid a $199 fee to transfer the lifetime service in 12/06 and after the tech searched for several minutes (stating the computer system only went back 6 months) we were told that that was an "upgrade" fee, not a "service transfer" fee and the 3-year time limit did not apply.


This is just wrong on TiVo's part (the not counting the $199 you paid in 12/06). It was absolutely advertised as a service transfer fee. TiVo email of the era (1/22/07):


> For a limited time, when you purchase a Series3 HD box, you can transfer your product lifetime service from a Series1 or Series2 box for only $199.


There were many people who bought their TiVo elsewhere, and the only money they paid TiVo was the transfer fee - there was no "upgrade" in their transaction with TiVo.

It is also the case that it is listed as a transfer fee when you check your billing history of the old unit:


> Billed Oct 18, 2006 HD Promo - Transfer Fee $199.00 $0.00 $199.00


I can understand wanting to charge a fee after 3 years - being the beneficiary of multiple transfers over the years and thinking it was a great deal! But either it has a relationship to the warranty of the new machine, or it doesn't. TiVo has to decide what the rules are, and has to tell us what the rules are.

If you paid $199 to transfer service within the last 3 years, then you shouldn't be charged again, especially for a warranty transfer, under the rules that we're currently being told by the reps.


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## TerriH (May 16, 2009)

Thank you for the drive-change information. I really appreciate it! We had talked about whether that would be an option, but during one of the technical support calls, it was suggested that it could be a card-slot problem and I was concerned that an HD replacement might not solve the problem. We may give it a shot anyway, since it looks like that is a reasonable possibility.

With regards to the service transfer fee, I called again this morning with the information from CrispyCritter regarding the email and the billing history (Thank you!) and was told again that "the 'product transfer fee' does stand. The prior charge was a promo fee and does not apply to the LS transfer fee 3-year term." 

The rep attempted to claim again that there was no record of it, even though I had the HD Promo - Transfer fee showing on my billing account screen. I pointed out that it was on the old machine (the S1) and she stated that it didn't count for the S3. I of course mentioned that THIS fee would show on an old machine, not the replacement, so what was I to do if/when the new machine broke in 10 months, and she got flustered and went back to the standard quote she kept stating about the transfer fee standing. I got nowhere despite politely asking to escalate it several times and asking for the name of the manager of customer service at the corporate office. (She stated that they didn't give names.) She did give me a fax number to send my documentation of the HD Promo fee, but stated it wouldn't matter.

I'm not sure where else to go with this and am frustrated and ready to quit dealing with TiVo CS, but again, I wanted to state our experience in case someone else is able to have more luck with this. 

Thanks for the HD change advice and for the info about the Promo fee!


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## DHP (Dec 8, 2006)

As the OP I'm glad to finally get someone else with the same issue!

I too purchased this product with a lifetime service transfer from a Series 1 in december 2006 so it would be within the 3 year time window as well.

Without more clarity, I too will go with a hard drive replacement myself and will put Tivo into the negative customer service camp they have never been in with me for the last 10 years. very disapointing...


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

TerriH said:


> We were given the same information as the original poster (new policy, $199 to transfer the LS). We tried 4 more times to escalate the issue and CS would not budge on the fee. When we asked if we would have to pay this fee again if the new replacement also stops working in 10 months, they stated that it would be charged no more than once every 3 years. When we asked whether we could see this in writing, the CSR directed me to the link listed in msg. #45 regarding Tivo's right to charge the fee.


Was your original replacement an S3? Are they proposing to replace that now with an HD? The question remains whether this fee is because you're changing hardware.


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## TerriH (May 16, 2009)

nrc said:


> Was your original replacement an S3? Are they proposing to replace that now with an HD? The question remains whether this fee is because you're changing hardware.


The original replacement was an S3, and the current exchange would also be an S3. I would be satisfied paying $199 to upgrade to new hardware, but after 2 broken machines, my confidence in the S3's reliability is shaken.

We were very happy with how TiVo customer service dealt with our previous issue and replacement. (Though it did take a few representatives to find someone who was willing to help. Eventually we got a representative who walked us through a series of troubleshooting steps and called us back personally to see if it had worked...then handled the return when it didn't. By far the best customer service rep I've dealt with for ANY company.)

This time it has been very disappointing and at no point did we get the impression that anyone really wanted to help resolve the issue.

Although I don't expect it to have any effect, I do plan on contacting TiVo corporate to complain and will update with any new information. (If anyone could tell me a specific person or even a title to direct the complaint to, I'd appreciate it. I was unable to get any of the CSRs to give me the information which leaves me wondering if anyone at corporate actually reads or responds to customer complaints.)


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo extends the 1 year parts warranty for the duration a pre-paid service contract. Customers who pre-pay for 3 years of service get a 3 year parts warranty. I don't expect this courtesy needs to be extended to lifetime customers. I wonder if this is the policy that motivated tivo to re-examine the issue of repairing machines with lifetime service. I don't expect tivo should repair via a swap out for a $49 charge but I don't think a $250 charge ($49 swap charge and $200 transfer charge) to repair an out of warranty unit is fair.

I have some issues with the new transfer fee. A company normally offers an exchange option to save time for the customer and to make it easier for the company to handle the repair process. It's not consumer friendly to impose a $199 additional cost as a requirement for any out of warranty repair. Normally the LS stays with the unit. I don't think it's ethical, and may not even be legal, to charge a transfer fee if the customer is getting a unit that already had LS on it.

At least some states may have an issue with the size of the fee. A reasonable person may think a transfer fee is a processing fee ($20-$50). JMO but tivo isn't charging a transfer fee but rather is offering a discount on a new LS agreement. Prehaps tivo needs to have 2 batches of refurbished units. Customers who have LS have will get a unit from the stack of units that already have LS, wait for their unit to be repaired or pay a fee.


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## DHP (Dec 8, 2006)

The point is that these two units talked about in this thread are still within the one year warranty! It certainly is not customer friendly to impose the transfer fee out of warranty but totally inappropriate for a box within the 1 year warranty.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

DHP said:


> The point is that these two units talked about in this thread are still within the one year warranty! It certainly is not customer friendly to impose the transfer fee out of warranty but totally inappropriate for a box within the 1 year warranty.


I would agree, but whether these units are within their warranty period isn't clear to me. Both are within one year of getting a replacement box, but I don't know whether the replacement box starts a new year - in many company's warranty policies it doesn't. In another thread, somebody gave the impression that the replacement TiVo only had a 30 day warranty by itself. Both TiVos were long out of the original purchase one year warranty.

I couldn't find anything definitive about replacement warranties. Anybody know for sure?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Replacement units carry the balance of the original warranty. It's not clear what warranty comes with a refurbished unit bought for around $150 as an out of warranty repair.


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## DHP (Dec 8, 2006)

So to close out this discussion, I ended up buying a 1 tb replacement drive from weaknees (so upgraded from the original 250 gb in the unit) and popped it in and everything is good with the unit after firing it up. Still a disappointing customer service experience from Tivo that a less than 1 year old box that tivo replaced after a hardware failure would then force me to buy a hard drive from a 3rd party. When I opened the box, I noticed that the hard drive in the original unit I received from Tivo in December 2008 was manufactured in June 2006! The new one I installed was manufactured in January 2009 so I feel better on that front...


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## HawaiiAES (Aug 6, 2009)

I dont agree with the PLS transfer fee but at the same time i do undestand it and the need for it. The Product Lifetime Service Transfer Fee or PLT is for tivo customer that have a box that has had PLS for over 3 years. Whcih is horrible for customers but at the same time i can see it from the business point of view. Customers who have pls could in perspective just keep replacing a box and getting another one for only 149$ for a box that TiVo would not even make money off of. This is a good business idea because if everybody bought PLS they would not make any money with those customers at all and be able to provide us with any technical or customer support. So the way i see it, its good business but if u want to make it better on yourself, your better off buying the 3 year prepaid or one year because you can always transfer that to a new box whether its done through an exchange or a retailer. which also gives you the potential to upgrade to new boxes as they come out, which you can't do with PLS becuase that for that box only. 

but thats just my two cents
-let me know if you'd like any other information
-private message me or write me a message, ill answer any questions you may have
-TiVo Nerd-


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

HawaiiAES said:


> I dont agree with the PLS transfer fee but at the same time i do undestand it and the need for it. The Product Lifetime Service Transfer Fee or PLT is for tivo customer that have a box that has had PLS for over 3 years.
> -TiVo Nerd-


Interesting first post. A customer has the option of trying to fix the box himself. Failing hard drive is the most common issue. A customer can find a company, local or web, to fix a unit. As long as the unit can be fixed the customer keeps his product lifetime service.

Tivo ships refurbished units. The unit the customer sends in gets repaired and is sent to another customer. JMO but the fact that tivo repairs the customers unit, but sends it to a different customer, isn't a valid reason to charge $150 to transfer service. I'd have a different opinion if the customers unit wasn't really repairable (bad motherboard) or if the customer asked for a refurbished unit in order to expedite service. Tivo is using a "loophole", the fact that the customer doesn't get his own repaired unit back to justify an additional $150 charge.

Assume the customer has a bad hard drive. Charging $300 to replace a bad hard drive is not a reasonable price. JMO.

The fact that most members of TCF will handle their own repair doesn't change the unfairness of tivo's policy.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

lew said:


> Interesting first post. A customer has the option of trying to fix the box himself. Failing hard drive is the most common issue. A customer can find a company, local or web, to fix a unit. As long as the unit can be fixed the customer keeps his product lifetime service.
> 
> Tivo ships refurbished units. The unit the customer sends in gets repaired and is sent to another customer. JMO but the fact that tivo repairs the customers unit, but sends it to a different customer, isn't a valid reason to charge $150 to transfer service. I'd have a different opinion if the customers unit wasn't really repairable (bad motherboard) or if the customer asked for a refurbished unit in order to expedite service. Tivo is using a "loophole", the fact that the customer doesn't get his own repaired unit back to justify an additional $150 charge.
> 
> ...


TiVo is not in the repair business, they take care of of in warranties TiVos because they have to, charging $149 to fix a Series 2 at this point in time is not too smart, $149 for a refurb TiVo-HD is OK but as pointed out they don't want to keep a LS TiVo going forever, I think it is a good decision, try fixing any electronics out of warranty and $149 look like a good price, or purchase a new one. LS has a risk, I think it is a good risk to take but you could get brunt after 3 years.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

lessd said:


> TiVo is not in the repair business, they take care of of in warranties TiVos because they have to, charging $149 to fix a Series 2 at this point in time is not too smart, $149 for a refurb TiVo-HD is OK but as pointed out they don't want to keep a LS TiVo going forever, I think it is a good decision, try fixing any electronics out of warranty and $149 look like a good price, or purchase a new one. LS has a risk, I think it is a good risk to take but you could get brunt after 3 years.


Manufacturers either repair out of warranty products or will refer you to an authorized repair facility. Sony would not do very well if they told out of warranty customers "too bad". Tivo has elected to handle this issue by repairing units, but giving the repaired unit to another customer. The unit has not reached the product lifetime it's repaired. The fact that the repaired unit is sent to another customer should be irrelevant.

It's very easy for us to think tivo is right. Most of us will "repair" our own units by replacing the hard drive. It's easy to ignore the fact that tivo is charging many of those customers $300 for basically a new hard drive.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

lew said:


> Manufacturers either repair out of warranty products or will refer you to an authorized repair facility. Sony would not do very well if they told out of warranty customers "too bad". Tivo has elected to handle this issue by repairing units, but giving the repaired unit to another customer. The unit has not reached the product lifetime it's repaired. The fact that the repaired unit is sent to another customer should be irrelevant.
> 
> It's very easy for us to think tivo is right. Most of us will "repair" our own units by replacing the hard drive. It's easy to ignore the fact that tivo is charging many of those customers $300 for basically a new hard drive.


The $300 is more than just for out of warranty repair cost, the unit is 3 years old or had LS on it for 3 or more years, the question is should TiVo keep the LS free move for 4 years ? 10 years ?, how many years would you think fair for this LS as it is defined as the life of the TiVo the service was put on. I know that as long as the motherboard works one could keep a TiVo working forever with just replacing the Hard Drive or in a small number cases the power supply, the ease of people doing this has hurt TiVos pricing/profit of LS as any TiVo does have a monthly expense (for TiVo inc.) for each TiVo that has any service and calls in at least once every six months. I think a lot of people have a hard time with the notion that LS is not forever, so when does it end ? Should we take a poll ?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

lew said:


> Manufacturers either repair out of warranty products or will refer you to an authorized repair facility. Sony would not do very well if they told out of warranty customers "too bad". Tivo has elected to handle this issue by repairing units, but giving the repaired unit to another customer. The unit has not reached the product lifetime it's repaired. The fact that the repaired unit is sent to another customer should be irrelevant.


TiVo uses a refurbishment process instead of individual repair (just like pretty much every other CE company) because it's much more economical than tracking and repairing every item individually. Some units do die short of three years and this policy protects product lifetime subscribers from that risk.

It makes no sense that every customer should pay higher repair costs just so that product lifetime subscribers can avoid the risk of paying for a transfer sooner than necessary. They have the option of repairing it themselves or sending to someone else if it's that important to them.


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