# Is there any Tivo that does not require a monthly fee?



## tvsoda

Is there a stripped down Tivo that does the basic recording, but that does not require a monthly fee. I'm not asking for a Tivo that is full service, but a VCR digital recorder. 

I'm not looking for something to search for shows or that has a web interface. I am looking for something I can tell to record 3-3:30 M-F, for example. I am looking for the most basic digital recorder on the market.


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## dmdeane

What you are talking about is "TiVo Basic". It's a very basic level of service (limited guide data, no advanced TiVo features) that you get free with certain Series 2 third party TiVos: mostly the Pioneer and Toshiba DVD Recorders, IIRC. If you buy one of these units they come with TiVo Basic and you can upgrade later to the full TiVo service if you want to. 

Of course, if you experienced the full TiVo service and what it can do, you wouldn't put up with just TiVo Basic for very long.


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## jsmeeker

also, if you really do want something that basic, look at other DVRs that aren't TiVo. No need to limit your self to TiVo in a case like this.


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## tvsoda

dmdeane said:


> What you are talking about is "TiVo Basic". It's a very basic level of service (limited guide data, no advanced TiVo features) that you get free with certain Series 2 third party TiVos: mostly the Pioneer and Toshiba DVD Recorders, IIRC. If you buy one of these units they come with TiVo Basic and you can upgrade later to the full TiVo service if you want to.
> 
> Of course, if you experienced the full TiVo service and what it can do, you wouldn't put up with just TiVo Basic for very long.


Thanks for the info.

I am looking for the cheapest way to replace a VCR. I hate monthly fees. I was thinking about a DVD recorder, I saw some without tivo servie. I think I would preffer a hard drive, so I don't have to switch DVD's or look for what I recorded. I would like a list of recorded programs to select what I want to play.

Why doesn't Tivo offer basic service for their boxes? There must be other people like me who only want a basic recorder.


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## jsmeeker

tvsoda said:


> TWhy doesn't Tivo offer basic service for their boxes? There must be other people like me who only want a basic recorder.


Well, they do, as you found out. But TiVo finds that there is value in offering a higher level of service and they want to make some money, so they offer that service and charge for it.


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## tvsoda

I was searching other thread to see what people wrote, and in one TiVoEvan74 suggested a Toshiba SD-H400. Does anyone know anything about this unit? Does it require a phone line to work?


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## tvsoda

Dang, I was reading the reviews of the toshiba at epinions, and it is just what I am looking for. But none of the stores sell it. Anyone know where to pick one up? I'd preffer a real store to an internet store.


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## Billy66

tvsoda said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Why doesn't Tivo offer basic service for their boxes? There must be other people like me who only want a basic recorder.


They actually used to. The original Series 1 TiVo's were able to manually record without TiVo service. TiVo took that functionality away.

It wasn't that they felt that there was a high value in their service so they decided to charge for it. It was more like they discovered that there were too many people who did not find value in their service and were using their hardware as a digital VCR for manual recordings and bypassing the service.

Their business model dictates that they subsidize the hardware and as customers were finding the hardware useful without the service, they wrote the code to disable that ability.


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## dmdeane

tvsoda said:


> Why doesn't Tivo offer basic service for their boxes? There must be other people like me who only want a basic recorder.


TiVo has to make money somehow. The boxes are sold at a loss or at cost. So TiVo can only make money by subscriptions. Or eventually by advertising.

Note that you don't have to pay monthly subscription if you buy a lifetime subscription (lifetime of the box, that is). This costs more short term, but pays for itself long term.

TiVo really is much more than just a digital VCR. It does so much more it really changes the way you watch TV. I would never have bought a TiVo if it were just a digital VCR; I hate VCRs and refuse to use them except when I absolutely have to. They are far too much of a chore. Replacing a VCR with its digital equivalent is not really much of an improvement.

However if one of the TiVo Basic DVD recorders isn't to your liking or you can't find one, there are other hard disk DVD recorders out there that will function similarly.


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## bidger

dmdeane said:


> Replacing a VCR with its digital equivalent is not really much of an improvement.


There's one point I would dispute. I've used a S1 SA TiVo unsubbed and given the fact that there were no tapes to cue up or rewind, I'd say it was a pretty significant improvement. However, I only used it for a couple of over-the-air stations. If someone were using it for a cable or satellite lineup, it would be more than a handful to coordinate. The fact that the recordings aren't labeled doesn't help.

There's a huge difference between TiVo with a subscription and without, but to say a DVR unsubbed isn't much of an improvement isn't entirely accurate to someone who has used one.


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## tvsoda

bidger said:


> There's one point I would dispute. I've used a S1 SA TiVo unsubbed and given the fact that there were no tapes to cue up or rewind, I'd say it was a pretty significant improvement. However, I only used it for a couple of over-the-air stations. If someone were using it for a cable or satellite lineup, it would be more than a handful to coordinate. The fact that the recordings aren't labeled doesn't help.


Basic Tivo won't label the recordings?


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## dgh

tvsoda said:


> Basic Tivo won't label the recordings?


"TiVo Basic" and an unsubbed S1 are two different things.


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## dmdeane

bidger said:


> There's one point I would dispute. I've used a S1 SA TiVo unsubbed and given the fact that there were no tapes to cue up or rewind, I'd say it was a pretty significant improvement. However, I only used it for a couple of over-the-air stations. If someone were using it for a cable or satellite lineup, it would be more than a handful to coordinate. The fact that the recordings aren't labeled doesn't help.
> 
> There's a huge difference between TiVo with a subscription and without, but to say a DVR unsubbed isn't much of an improvement isn't entirely accurate to someone who has used one.


Actually you sound like you agree with me. You've just listed many of the reasons why a digital VCR isn't much of an improvement over a VCR, apart from not having to deal with tapes. It was never the tapes that was the heart of what was wrong with the VCR, IMO. It was the chore of having to manually find each upcoming show you wanted to record, and manually setting up the VCR to record. Eliminating the tapes doesn't do anything significant to eliminate this hassle.

I do not want to be bothered once or twice a week or more to have to remember to set up new recordings. Invariably I would forget, or the show's schedule would change, and I would miss things I wanted to record. These boxes are basically a PC that records TV; there's no reason why they can't be intelligent enough to "set it and forget it" and that's what TiVo does which a simple "digital VCR" cannot do. I suppose it depends on whether you have money to spend, or time to spend: subscription-free digital recorders are only "free" if your time is of no value to you.


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## Billy66

No, actually he stated that he disagrees with you. You both have the same gripe about it, but you obviously give that gripe more weight


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## davezatz

tvsoda said:


> I was searching other thread to see what people wrote, and in one TiVoEvan74 suggested a Toshiba SD-H400. Does anyone know anything about this unit? Does it require a phone line to work?


One of my TiVo's is the SD-H400... It's pretty cool because it acts as your TiVo and DVD player. The DVD menus/control aren't as nice as some other TiVo's but it is progressive scan and gets the job done. Oh yeah, TiVo basic. I think these are going for about $150ish on ebay these days.

You'll need a phone line to set it up if it doesn't come with the most recent software. Once configured, you can use a network connection.


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## bidger

dmdeane, the majority of the recording I did with the unsubbed TiVo were repeat manual recordings, ones that I set once, then forget about. Like I said, pretty much 2 channels, not a lot of primetime, so it was manageable.


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## DocNo

tvsoda said:


> I hate monthly fees.


I do too. Luckily, Tivo offers a one-time lifetime sub. Has already more than paid for itself for me.

Tivo without a sub is kinda pointless....


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## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> One of my TiVo's is the SD-H400... It's pretty cool because it acts as your TiVo and DVD player. The DVD menus/control aren't as nice as some other TiVo's but it is progressive scan and gets the job done. Oh yeah, TiVo basic. I think these are going for about $150ish on ebay these days.
> 
> You'll need a phone line to set it up if it doesn't come with the most recent software. Once configured, you can use a network connection.


it will not come with the most recent software unless someone is ebaying it that way. The SD H400 is dicsontinued so you will not find it in a brick and mortar store but will have to look online.

I have one in my bonus room for the kids now and pay the monthly sub on it as I find the added benefit of TiVo service a great benefit for my kids especially. They hear of a show by name, ask me if it is an alright show for them to watch and then go plug it into the TiVo find by name and set the recording to that one or a season pass.

and yes TiVo Basic will label the recording with the show name as it gets 3 days of guide data that it uses for info.


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## dmdeane

bidger said:


> dmdeane, the majority of the recording I did with the unsubbed TiVo were repeat manual recordings, ones that I set once, then forget about. Like I said, pretty much 2 channels, not a lot of primetime, so it was manageable.


So yours is not a typical example, then. Most people watch more than 2 channels, and their favorite shows aren't always on the most stable of schedules.

This is why, btw, people hated the VCR and used it to play back rented VHS tapes but not to record their TV shows: it wasn't worth the hassle. And no, it wasn't really the tapes that was the problem. Back in the early days of this forum we had some refugees from the old Video Guide system (bought and killed by Gemstar, IIRC). This was sort of like a pre-TiVo, non-digital PVR that got its guide data wirelessly and automatically recorded your TV shows for you to VHS tape. You still had to change tapes, but the horrendous chore of having to keep track of multiple TV shows on multiple channels at multiple times (which kept changing) was eliminated. Result: the best thing to happen to TV watching prior to TiVo.

Anyway, since the number of people who only watch only a couple of TV shows on only two channels is too small a market to bother going after (especially since any profit would only be from razor-thin margins from selling commoditized hardware), it's not surprising that we haven't seen the emergence of a subscription-free, pure DVR (as opposed to combo devices like hard-disk/DVD recorders). There's really no way to make money in such a market. The cable and satellite companies can afford to subsidize the cost to draw in subscribers, but TiVo has to look, long term, to possible content-personalized advertising based revenues to survive (a la the Google advertising model) and to eventually replace subscription revenues. Until then, don't expect a lot of options when looking for subscription-free DVRs. The piper has to be paid, one way or another.


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## Billy66

Your arguments are good dmdeane, but if there were really so few people that wanted to use their TiVo that way then why did TiVo disable that functionality when they had already coded it in? They, as a course of business, apparently came to the same conclusion as you have initially but then made the investment of time and programming to change their minds.


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## DocNo

Billy66 said:


> Your arguments are good dmdeane, but if there were really so few people that wanted to use their TiVo that way then why did TiVo disable that functionality when they had already coded it in?


Well, the obvious is they wanted to ensure subscription revenue.

I would submit, an even more likely reason - there are probably more than enough cheap people who wouldn't pay for the full service and then badmouth that "Tivo" thing as being a complete and total piece of crap. Never mind they aren't getting the full Tivo experience, it still says Tivo on the outside of the box.

I don't blame them for dropping a cheap feature that an extreme minority of users would probably use, but could stand to severely dilute and confuse their brand. Want manual recordings with no fee's? As others pointed out there are plenty of DVD recorders with hard drives that will do exactly what you want.


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## Billy66

Don't get me wrong DocNo, I don't blame them either. We also agree that it is to ensure sub revenue.

My point was that initially TiVo must have felt the same way as dmdeane, that nobody would want to use it that way. As such, they had those features enabled. That was their strategy. Then, something changed. People who were laready conditioned to using a VCR, found this to be a better alternative and were using it that way. So TiVo went to the expense to reverse their original decision and take those features away.

I'm in agreement with their decision. I just think that we, as TiVo users, are being myopic when we poo poo the idea that others would be perfectly happy using it as a digital VCR.


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## Shawn95GT

DocNo said:


> I do too. Luckily, Tivo offers a one-time lifetime sub. Has already more than paid for itself for me.
> 
> Tivo without a sub is kinda pointless....


Agreed on both counts. As an added bonus, the hardware will have some intrinsic value if you ever want to sell it later.

A SA Tivo is dang near free after rebate.


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## jkalnin

Did you ever look into getting a PC all-in-wonder Video cards (or any with cable input) and then getting software like Snapstream?

Then your PC is a subscription free DVR. Unfortunately you can't do much else on it while it is recording.


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## bidger

dmdeane said:


> So yours is not a typical example, then. Most people watch more than 2 channels, and their favorite shows aren't always on the most stable of schedules.
> 
> This is why, btw, people hated the VCR and used it to play back rented VHS tapes but not to record their TV shows: it wasn't worth the hassle.


Re. the first sentence I admitted as much in my first post and the restated it when you asked me. Yes, it's atypical, but for anyone who using OTA for a handful of stations, IOW not paying for TV, what would their motivation be to pay for a DVR if they can find a solution for free? I used an open box TiVo with just the remote that was used for demo at the local WalMart on closeout for $50 for the unsubbed recordings, but I've also used two Lifetime subbed TiVos and yes, of course the subbed units are easier to use and offer more features. Some folks don't care about those features. I turn off Suggestions on every TiVo box I activate. Plus, I prefer the integrated boxes. When the S3 TiVo premieres, I can envision the posts here: "I never knew how important dual tuners were!", "I can record and watch in HD!", "I don't have to hook it up to a cable box to watch HBO!". Peripheral stuff is nice, but when the people who have been waiting for the hardware features have what they want, they're not going to be listening to "Live365" all that much.

I'm also atypical as far as your VCR analogy goes. I owned very few prerecorded VHS tapes and used my Magnavox for recording TV programs that I would miss when I was working 2nd and 3rd shift. It was very easy to program and I know that because I did program someone else's VCR, Sanyo, and it was a nightmare. I also found the tapes to be a pita, not just because of having to cue and rewind, but because of price. DVD-R is a pittance compared to what I used to have to shell out for VHS blanks. Using the VCR for archiving the way I did made me a prime candidate for TiVo. After I saw the promo on DirecTV, I couldn't get one fast enough.


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## Hunter Green

I'm surprised no one has pointed out that _every_ TIVo doesn't require a monthly fee... if you buy a lifetime subscription, and consider that to be part of the cost of the box. As has been pointed out, TiVo Inc. has to make money somehow. If you don't like that it's a recurring cost, they offer you the other option too.


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## tvsoda

Hunter Green said:


> I'm surprised no one has pointed out that _every_ TIVo doesn't require a monthly fee... if you buy a lifetime subscription, and consider that to be part of the cost of the box. As has been pointed out, TiVo Inc. has to make money somehow. If you don't like that it's a recurring cost, they offer you the other option too.


I've been doing some reading, and the lifetime subscription is misleading. How many people paid for a lifetime subscription on a unit that became obsolete, and were forced to buy a new unit and pay a new subscription fee.


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## dgh

No one I know. My friends have 9 TiVos on which they bought lifetime at least 5 and half years ago and all are doing fine. (Plus there are some newer ones.) Plus, the current ebay value of our ancient lifetime services hover around something close to what we paid, so if/when any of us do upgrade, the cost for 5-6 or more years of service will be pretty close to nothing per month. I can understand how it seems misleading - before you allow for resale, it sounds more expensive than it really is


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## DocNo

tvsoda said:


> I've been doing some reading, and the lifetime subscription is misleading. How many people paid for a lifetime subscription on a unit that became obsolete, and were forced to buy a new unit and pay a new subscription fee.


How is it misleading? My original 14 hour Phillips Tivo is chugging along just fine, thank you.

To me, the lifetime is the biggest advantage of the Tivo! Monthly fees SUCK! You NEVER quit paying them - why do you think all these companies are trying to herd everything in that direction? Because it's a good deal for us? Ha!

My first Tivo paid for it's lifetime in a little over a year (they were $150 back then). Heck, my second lifetime on my second Tivo pays for itself in two months vs. paying a monthly fee forever. Now that they offer a discount for a second and beyond Tivo, there is less an incentive... partly because I am now on my third Tivo and at half it will take over 4 years to recoup the cost, and partly because I will probably get an S3 if/when they ship and at that point I really won't need four tuners recording stuff. Dunno, I still may hedge and put a lifetime on it. If I do decide to get rid of it, right now I can easily recover it by selling it on ebay.

But honestly, I really am shocked by people who think lifetime is a bad deal - all you have to do is crunch some numbers and you will see that the monthly is the TERRIBLE deal over the long run. Great for Tivo shareholders, but bad for me the individual.

If you couldn't replace the hard drive in Tivo as easily as you could, that would dramatically shift the value proposition - but you can, so it's trivial to keep a tivo running pretty much forever (unless you fry something - all my Tivo's are plugged into UPS's...)


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## mattack

dmdeane said:


> Actually you sound like you agree with me. You've just listed many of the reasons why a digital VCR isn't much of an improvement over a VCR, apart from not having to deal with tapes.


I say this as someone with two lifetime Tivos (though admittedly one was a 'luck' purchase off of eBay, I didn't expect it to have lifetime), and am drooling for the S3..

I completely disagree with that statement. Just the fact that with a "digital VCR" (sic) you can watch something previously recorded while recording is a HUUUGE step over an actual VCR. (I usually had one VCR more than I needed to record, so I could watch something previously recorded while still recording, except during sweeps when there were LOTS of things on at the same time).

Heck, even when using my non-Tivo hard-drive/DVD recorder with just DVDs (yes, due to a fault in it -- I'd love a Tivo/DVD recorder where I could edit the recordings), it's still better than videotapes even though I have a pile of unlabelled DVDs..

Even with Tivos, I still know when the shows I want are on..


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## dgh

mattack said:


> Even with Tivos, I still know when the shows I want are on..


The TiVo owners I know can't even narrow it down to a day of the week.


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## dmdeane

mattack said:


> Even with Tivos, I still know when the shows I want are on..


I don't, and I've heard from scores of other TiVo users on this forum who don't. In the early years of this forum a recurring theme on many threads was how we stopped knowing or caring when and where our favorite shows were on. We'd get into conversations about TV shows with non-TiVo users, and suddenly realize that we didn't know the time or the channel of the show. This seemed to be a fairly typical reaction of new TiVo users.


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## jsmeeker

dmdeane said:


> I don't, and I've heard from scores of other TiVo users on this forum who don't. In the early years of this forum a recurring theme on many threads was how we stopped knowing or caring when and where our favorite shows were on. We'd get into conversations about TV shows with non-TiVo users, and suddenly realize that we didn't know the time or the channel of the show. This seemed to be a fairly typical reaction of new TiVo users.


For me, it's a mixed bag. Some I know pretty well. These are usually prime time network shows. Since a given episode typically airs only once and because I have a single, Series 1 standalone, I have to know when these shows are on to work around conflicts. Sometimes I can't, so I have to make a choice of what I would rather have TiVo record. Other shows, I really don't know when exactly they come on. A given episode may air many times over the course of several days. I don't care WHICH one TiVo grabs, nor do I usually know when the initial airing occurs. Lots of times, these shows change times and days.. This is a MAJOR strength of TiVo. But I do know which channel most of my shows air on. You have to if you use Season Passes, since they are channel specific.


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## Hunter Green

tvsoda said:


> I've been doing some reading, and the lifetime subscription is misleading. How many people paid for a lifetime subscription on a unit that became obsolete, and were forced to buy a new unit and pay a new subscription fee.


All it has to do is outlast the break-even period (divide lifetime cost by monthly cost for number of months required), which they almost invariably do.

But that's still a red herring. The monthly cost approach doesn't make you any more immune to the march of technological advances than does the lifetime. Like I said, if you want a no-monthly-fee TiVo, you consider the lifetime fee part of the cost of the box. Is the cost of the box worth the life you'll get from it? You can evaluate that the same as you do any cell-phone, car, TV, or box of Rice Krispies that you're considering buying. If it is, it is; if it isn't, it isn't. Simple as that.

I went lifetime because I knew my TiVo would (and easily did) outlast the breakeven point, but if I hadn't, I wouldn't be upset about paying every month for a service as fine as what TiVo gives. I'm not allergic to monthly costs. (Though I must admit, that's what's keeping me from getting into satellite radio.)


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## cheer

Well I suppose everyone handled/applied VCRs differently.

To me a dumb DVR does have advantages. First, tapes. Tapes were a PITA. I would get behind on tape labelling and forget what was on each tape. Then I'd lose one, or forget which order the shows were broadcast in. Then there was storage -- sometimes my wife likes to hold off on watching a series until we have a season's worth and then marathon them. So I'd end up with shelves full of tapes, especially if one episode didn't record because the tape got eaten: we'd have to wait until it was rebroadcasted.

Gah.

OTOH, I also see a huge value add from the Tivo software, and would hate to have to make do with a dumb DVR.

Based on that webcast of Tivo's CEO, it sounds like they may be moving in the opposite direction...offering an option to pay an increased monthly fee with no hardware cost. I can see why people might be attracted to this, as there are plenty of people who can afford, say, $16.99/mo that might not be able to lay out hardware costs up front, let alone a lifetime sub. Of course, the math shows that the lifetime sub is the way to go...


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## Shawn95GT

cheer said:


> Based on that webcast of Tivo's CEO, it sounds like they may be moving in the opposite direction...offering an option to pay an increased monthly fee with no hardware cost. I can see why people might be attracted to this, as there are plenty of people who can afford, say, $16.99/mo that might not be able to lay out hardware costs up front, let alone a lifetime sub. Of course, the math shows that the lifetime sub is the way to go...


I've seen commercials for the $16.99 deal. At first I thought 'glad I got the lifetime, monthly went up', but then I realized it was a leased Tivo deal.


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## mattack

dmdeane said:


> I don't, and I've heard from scores of other TiVo users on this forum who don't. In the early years of this forum a recurring theme on many threads was how we stopped knowing or caring when and where our favorite shows were on.


I guess you never have more shows on than you want to watch/record at the same time. (I think it's tomorrow, hopefully not tonight, where there are *4* things on at once that are interesting. I think I'll probably end up skipping one, watching one live maybe.)

Even with SPs, when there are more things on than I can record, sometimes I prioritize manually (decide to Tivo or use my non-Tivo recorder) in an order other than the original SP settings. So I still know when shows are on.. and usually check the To Do list on both of my Tivos once a day.

If I had *8* tuners (to be able to pad EVERYTHING a few minutes on both ends), then I could probably start forgetting when stuff was on.. eventually.. 4 tuners (2 series 3s.. droool) would come closer.


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## dmdeane

mattack said:


> I guess you never have more shows on than you want to watch/record at the same time.


Not that often, no. But I have had up to four TiVos recording at the same time, so it does happen. Most of my show conflicts aren't on major networks anyway, and have frequent repeats so I can simply use Season Pass Manager to repriorize to allow the more frequently shown show to be recorded at a lower priority.

I still don't remember when or where the majority of my shows are recorded, however. Once I reprioritize the Season Passes or I learn which shows should have Season Passes on different TiVos so as to avoid likely conflicts, I quickly forget the time/day/channel information again. It's nuisance information I don't want clutterng my short term memory.

I seldom check my Season Passes or To Do List more than once or twice a month, unless there is something new on I want to catch, or when a new TV season begins, or sports (usually NFL on Fox) are likely to cause scheduling problems, etc., and even then I never need to check more than once a week.


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## dmdeane

Shawn95GT said:


> I've seen commercials for the $16.99 deal. At first I thought 'glad I got the lifetime, monthly went up', but then I realized it was a leased Tivo deal.


It's not really leased, though, is it? It's more like a cell phone contract where they give you the hardware, and you are locked into a contract for a specified period of time (with, presumably, a penalty fee to discourage leaving the contract before it expires). I forget if this has been mentioned, but what happens to the monthly fee after the contract expires? Or if you already have a lifetime sub?

I wonder if this deal is being worked out now in preparation for the Series 3 rollout. I'd have to imagine that the Series 3 box will be expensive; maybe not as expensive as some are speculating, but still considerably more than current price of Series 2 boxes. This kind of a "pay higher monthly fee now and get free hardware with this x-year service contract" would be *perfect* for many consumers who would otherwise be in sticker shock over the price of the new Series 3 TiVo.

Just speculating, but it does make a lot of sense.


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## dmdeane

bidger said:


> Re. the first sentence I admitted as much in my first post and the restated it when you asked me.


Sorry, there are several overlapping conversations going on here, I should have been clearer. I was explaining why atypical users of your type aren't who TiVo needs to be catering to in order to survive as a company. You know this, but the OP and others reading this may not.


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## dmdeane

Billy66 said:


> Your arguments are good dmdeane, but if there were really so few people that wanted to use their TiVo that way then why did TiVo disable that functionality when they had already coded it in? They, as a course of business, apparently came to the same conclusion as you have initially but then made the investment of time and programming to change their minds.


Dittos to what DocNo said.

If TiVo wanted to go out of business in a hurry, selling hardware at, or below, cost, and allowing anyone to use it without a subscription fee, would kill them. The ability was only allowed in the very beginning when the company was a brand new startup and needed to encourage early adopters to jump on the TiVo bandwagon.

As DocNo said, allowing dilution of TiVo's brand by pushing or allowing dumbed-down TiVos isn't in their interests, either, which is also probably why TiVo Basic is only available on third party TiVos - ie, TiVo Basic isn't something TiVo did to cater to consumers, it's something TiVo did to cater to consumer electronics manufacturers. TiVo isn't a hardware company; they are a software and services company, and TiVo's branding and overall user experience are the only thing keeping the wolf from their door.

I'm afraid those who don't like monthly fees and/or being at the mercy of cable/satellite providers for their DVRs, are tough out of luck. There's no way a small indepenent company can remain viable simply selling "dumb digital VCRs" to customers, while trying to stay ahead of the inevitable hardwire commoditization cannibalizing their thin profit margins. It's not economical and only something like TiVo's future "smart advertising" might eventually make it possible to reduce or eliminate subscription fees. Otherwise it's strictly a "big boys" game with cable/satellite providers subsidizing hardware costs to lure in customers.


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## Billy66

I understand and completely agree dmdeane. My point was that it took TiVo some time to reach that position and before that time, they held the opposite one. They appeared to believe (just like you and I do) that once a user tasted the service that they would have them and the number of users who would choose to use it as a digital VCR would be insignificant. Their actions to take that away is indicative that that initial assumption was incorrect and there actually are a significant number who would use it that way.

I'm not and have never been one of those people.


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## cheer

dmdeane said:


> I still don't remember when or where the majority of my shows are recorded, however. Once I reprioritize the Season Passes or I learn which shows should have Season Passes on different TiVos so as to avoid likely conflicts, I quickly forget the time/day/channel information again. It's nuisance information I don't want clutterng my short term memory.
> 
> I seldom check my Season Passes or To Do List more than once or twice a month, unless there is something new on I want to catch, or when a new TV season begins, or sports (usually NFL on Fox) are likely to cause scheduling problems, etc., and even then I never need to check more than once a week.


I more or less mirror you here, but I do keep tabs on things a bit more closely.

In my pre-Tivo days I always knew when everything was on. I no longer do, though I have a vague idea because I manually manage conflicts. This is because conflicts come up that I am not always aware of -- especially when the networks play games with start and stop times. (Blast you, NBC!) It's bitten me a couple of times. So I use TWP to check for conflicts on a semi-regular basis.


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## Stormspace

dgh said:


> No one I know. My friends have 9 TiVos on which they bought lifetime at least 5 and half years ago and all are doing fine. (Plus there are some newer ones.) Plus, the current ebay value of our ancient lifetime services hover around something close to what we paid, so if/when any of us do upgrade, the cost for 5-6 or more years of service will be pretty close to nothing per month. I can understand how it seems misleading - before you allow for resale, it sounds more expensive than it really is


I have a friend whose lifetimed S1 developed a bad modem and is sitting in his entertainment center unused. Been that way for the past few years. Now, could he repair it, probably. But he certainly isn't getting any value from it.


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## dgh

Stormspace said:


> I have a friend whose lifetimed S1 developed a bad modem and is sitting in his entertainment center unused. Been that way for the past few years. Now, could he repair it, probably. But he certainly isn't getting any value from it.


Yeah, he could do a Weaknees modem repair, get an external modem, set up serial PPP to a PC, add broadband, or sell it to someone who is interested in getting it to work again. There are certainly plenty of ways to extract value from it if someone is motivated. You can also put a perfectly good item in the trash, but that's not the way to go if the conversation is about minimizing cost.


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## Stormspace

dgh said:


> Yeah, he could do a Weaknees modem repair, get an external modem, set up serial PPP to a PC, add broadband, or sell it to someone who is interested in getting it to work again. There are certainly plenty of ways to extract value from it if someone is motivated. You can also put a perfectly good item in the trash, but that's not the way to go if the conversation is about minimizing cost.


The problem this guy has is time. He has none. I've suggested that to him several times.


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## dgh

Yeah I understand. I bought a bandsaw last spring, and I'm really planning to get started on my woodworking hobby one of these days. Really, one of these days...


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## audiocrawford

TiVo is the only monthly bill that I actually smile as I pay. I'm always the first one to say, "Oh, you really don't need this or that extra", but in this case TiVo is a bargain. 43 cents a day for what I get out of it? Hell, I used to spend more than that each month just buying decent blank tapes. I already saved that by reducing my Netflix account from 5 @ a time to 3 @ a time, since with TiVo I have so much to watch (even with just one, single tuner model) that I just don't have time to watch them.

AC


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## penguin_2000

Ok, ok, lifetime subscription is better than monthly is better than non-subscribed... we get it.

But, for those of use who have decided to get it without the subscription, is there a definitive list of boxes with Tivo basic?? Can I be reasonably certain that any non-tivo branded box will have Tivo basic?

BTW, I only get basic cable (i.e. ~10 channels worth watching) and I don't have a landline... so no subscription for me. I really just want it to record Desparate housewives and Grey's anatomy for weeks that I need to sleep early on Sundays... I really don't need one for anything else.

...yes, I watch Desparate Housewives...


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## DocNo

Billy66 said:


> I'm in agreement with their decision. I just think that we, as TiVo users, are being myopic when we poo poo the idea that others would be perfectly happy using it as a digital VCR.


I have no doubt. Early on there were lots of people buying Tivo's cheap to use as digital recorders for their security systems.

Didn't do a darn thing for Tivo's profitability, tho. I think that's why they killed the functionality pretty early in the S1's life span.

Just because people want to do it, doesn't mean it has value or should be chased by Tivo.

Part of running a successful business is knowing which customers *aren't* valuable. Contrary to popular myth, the customer isn't always right and not all are worth pursuing.


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## DocNo

Stormspace said:


> I have a friend whose lifetimed S1 developed a bad modem and is sitting in his entertainment center unused. Been that way for the past few years. Now, could he repair it, probably. But he certainly isn't getting any value from it.


but that's his decision. For $100, he could put a turbonet in there and go on.

Or grab an external modem for $5 from a thrift store or ebay and get back online too. That's what I did for a friends Sony S1 that the internal modem died on. My old Supra 14.4 lives on 

No reason to let a perfectly good Tivo just sit there. Heck, he could sell it on Ebay.

It's only "valueless" because he's letting it be


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## DocNo

penguin_2000 said:


> But, for those of use who have decided to get it without the subscription, is there a definitive list of boxes with Tivo basic?? Can I be reasonably certain that any non-tivo branded box will have Tivo basic?


Heck, for what you want you don't even need Tivo Basic - a DVD recorder with a hard drive will work for two shows.

On the Home Theater guys podcast (first one of 2006) they were talking about an LG DVD recorder that you can upgrade the hard drive on, and also edit out commercials on the shows you record all from inside the player. Sounded pretty cool - I don't remember the model number unfortunately


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## mattack

DocNo said:


> On the Home Theater guys podcast (first one of 2006) they were talking about an LG DVD recorder that you can upgrade the hard drive on, and also edit out commercials on the shows you record all from inside the player. Sounded pretty cool - I don't remember the model number unfortunately


Do you mean "HDTV and Home Theater Podcast"? That's the only one I see when searching for Home Theater Guys.

I got the 1/3/06 one, and admittedly only skimmed through it, jumping around, but didn't hear anything about a DVD recorder.

I read the DVD recorder on avsforum but haven't heard of whichever one you're talking about, so I was curious -- especially the "upgrading the hard drive" part.
(I have a Toshiba hard drive/DVD recorder, but it corrupted its hard drive.. I love the feature set, but I'm intrigued by others, especially if they're more reliable. Repeating myself -- I sure wish Tivo's could edit the recordings before burning to DVD, I would have bought it in an instant.)


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## DocNo

mattack said:


> Do you mean "HDTV and Home Theater Podcast"? That's the only one I see when searching for Home Theater Guys.


Yup. I'm pretty sure it was the 1/3/06 one - could have been the one before it, I listened to three of 'em while driving around tonight 

What made it stick in my mind is the part about upgrading the hard drive. Apparently you just slap a larger drive in there, and the recorder formats it and prepares it automatically. They also talked quite a bit about editing out the commercials, which of course also stuck.

The whole talk on the DVD recorder was only about 2 minutes tops tho... If I had time tonight, I would go back and find it for you but I need to get to bed


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## megazone

penguin_2000 said:


> But, for those of use who have decided to get it without the subscription, is there a definitive list of boxes with Tivo basic?? Can I be reasonably certain that any non-tivo branded box will have Tivo basic?


Only five models have TIVo Basic:
Pioneer DVR-810H and DVR-57H
Toshiba SD-H400, RS-TX20, and RS-TX60


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## penguin_2000

DocNo said:


> Heck, for what you want you don't even need Tivo Basic - a DVD recorder with a hard drive will work for two shows.


Argh... enlighten me... I thought w/o Tivo basic you cannot even manually record?? Isn't that what 1-button recording is? Can such a unit (w/o Tivo basic) be set/programmed to record ahead of time (maybe a day) or would I need to be there telling it what to do?


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## megazone

He was talking about a non-TiVo box, some other brand.


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## peccles

I don't believe Pioneer or Toshiba are making DVRs with Tivo Basic anymore.


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## dgh

peccles said:


> I don't believe Pioneer or Toshiba are making DVRs with Tivo Basic anymore.


You could always use Ebay - your Internet Time Machine - if you want one


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## cdf12345

My first tivo was the Series 2 Toshiba DVD player Tivo.
I bought it online for about $130 2 years ago, (it was a refurb)

It had free tivo basic. And I used that for 2 weeks then used the free month of "tivo plus"

I never went back.

A few things to note about tivo basic. You only get 3 days of program listings (tivo plus gets 2 weeks) so you can never schedule a recording that's further than 3 days away, (sucks if you're going away for a weekend or vacation). 

You have to manually record everything.

No Season Passes.

You have to search by the time and channel, not the program name.

It's a pain, cause you have to keep telling it to record stuff, where with tivo plus, it's set it once, and forget it forever, it'll find and record it.

Basically, the lifetime fee is equal to 2 years of regular monthly service so. Figure you can find a tivo for under $100 (not hard) and you get lifetime service, you're talking < $400 total. Otherwise you're gonna pay $125+ for a older series 2 with Tivo Basic. 

Your choice. Once I got tivo plue , I bought a second unit for my parents within months.(who i thought would never be able to figure it out) Last week my mom told me she was at the movie theatre and missed a line of dialog and she tried to tivo it to hear it again. lol.

Hope that helps!


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## Whittaker

cdf12345 said:


> A few things to note about tivo basic. You only get 3 days of program listings (tivo plus gets 2 weeks) so you can never schedule a recording that's further than 3 days away, (sucks if you're going away for a weekend or vacation).


You can use a Season Pass, and as a last resort, you can manually schedule a program MONTHS ahead.



> You have to manually record everything.


Untrue.

You can pick a program from the guide and simply highlight it and it's set to record.



> No Season Passes.


It has what TiVo labels as a "Manual Season Pass". Not as customizable, but still an ongoing Season Pass.



> You have to search by the time and channel, not the program name.


True, but it's simple enough to pick from the guide.



> It's a pain, cause you have to keep telling it to record stuff, where with tivo plus, it's set it once, and forget it forever, it'll find and record it.


Not really. Almost all of my recordings are preset. I only occasionally add programs that pop up.


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## TiVoEvan74

For us, the major feature of TiVos is avoiding the hassle of stacks of tapes! We know others who are now getting tempted by TiVo who have the same reaction. Programming the VCR was never a big deal... but finding previously recorded shows amidst the stack of tapes was. 

Now, though, that the networks are showing so many repeats and juggling schedules so often, a VCR or even a manual recording TiVo (TiVo basic) simply isn't worth it-- not if you want to make sure you get the shows you're interested in.

Yes, the SD-H400 by Toshiba is/was pretty spiffy.. but it's even cooler having a DVD burning TiVo and the full service. Now, of course, we're faced with stacks of DVDs, and, like the stacks of VCR tapes, we may never get to most of them!

I'd strongly recommend getting a regular TiVo and subscribing. Take the hit once on lifetime and don't look back. Life's too short not to treat yourself to this!


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## TIVOHOBBY

I have an unsubbed Sony SRV-2000 Series I unit that I use to record the news every day from 7-10am. I set up a manual season pass, and it works just fine without the service. You can find used Series I units on Ebay for less than $50.00, so if you are deciding between a basic VCR or a Series I device without Tivo service, I would definitely recommend the Tivo device. Granted, it's not nearly as useable as it is with the programming guide info, but it's still far more convenient than a VCR. I do get the nag screen whenever I press the now playing list, but I'm so used to clearing it quickly that I don't even notice it any more.

For what it's worth, I bought the Series I unit before Tivo clarified that "lifetime" meant that of the product, and not my lifetime. I called Tivo to complain about this and they agreed to let me transfer my lifetime service to a new unit and still get the rebate, so I bought the 140GB unit at Costco for $280-$150 rebate, for a net of $130, and transferred the lifetime service from my Series I unit for free.

I also have a Time Warner HD DVR, which works great for recording HD shows, but doesn't have the intuitive software that Tivo provides. And, I have a Windows Media Center PC, which is also nice, but not as stable as Tivo. Tivo is still the product to beat in the DVR world.


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