# Verizon FIOS moving to an IPTV model within 3 years



## rudiger (Feb 6, 2002)

I caught this article at engadgethd. 
Since some on you have Series 3 with FIOS, I thought I would post this. 
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/09/25/verizon-fios-moving-towards-iptv/
It jumps to here.
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=134347&site=telcotv&f_src=lightreading_gnews

rudiger


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## eggpro (May 22, 2007)

thats not good...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Well that sucks. Hopefully by then TiVo will work with SDV and I guess i would swicth back to Comcast for TV, or there will be some kind of solution for IPTV that uses TiVo software.


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## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

In the end, with several branches of video delivery technology developing, TiVo is going to have to come up with a way to control cable boxes in HD mode. They did it for years with SD, and I understand that HD is more complicated because of HDCP and the additional bandwidth required, but with the power of processors improving there has to be a point when it becomes feasible again.

The key for this to work will be and encoder and/or compressor that can handle HDMI or composite video input at better than real time. Once we get there it should be possible for TiVo to go back to an IR Blaster or serial link control for the cable box. With that, all of the headaches for CableCard, SDV, and (now) IPTV go away. Of course, this will throw you back to single tuner mode unless you have two converter boxes, but I can live with as an option if I can buy a HD TiVo and not have to worry about the cable company killing all my content with their next technology refresh.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I don't think TiVo WANTS to go back to talking to a STB via IR blaster.

'Cause consumers don't want that either. That was a huge drawback to TiVo in the past... "You mean I have to have ANOTHER box in my house?"

Plus, cable companies are going to stop making non-DVR STBs sooner or later so having a TiVo as an additional box next to a cable co DVR would be pointless.


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## knarf829 (Jun 10, 2007)

Customers have a voice in this. Let Verizon know that you'd sooner give up FiOS than give up your TiVo.

Let TiVo know that it's important they find a way to support IPTV. I've seen talk of a hardware solution (USB dongle). 

Anyone have valid US Mail addresses for the two companies that will go somewhere other than into a minimum wage Customer Service rep's hands? An address for corporate higher ups and decision makers?


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

cwoody222 said:


> I don't think TiVo WANTS to go back to talking to a STB via IR blaster.
> 
> 'Cause consumers don't want that either. That was a huge drawback to TiVo in the past... "You mean I have to have ANOTHER box in my house?"
> 
> Plus, cable companies are going to stop making non-DVR STBs sooner or later so having a TiVo as an additional box next to a cable co DVR would be pointless.


And it would actually be TWO additional boxes if you wanted to record two shows at once. A three box stack (that probably wouldn't really stack) just to use Tivo?This is just not workable any more.

Al


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Any product announcement that is three years out is suspect. That is a LONG time. It means they are just at the beginning of thinking about it. Products are probably not even in development yet. It would be very surprising if this didn't slip out beyond the slated, even loosely slated, schedule. This is probably more about judging market reaction, a play to the stock market and sowing a little FUD about the competition. The FUD part seems to have worked well.

I like the idea of writing the respective companies. If anyone has a contact I'd like to know.

Al


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

knarf829 said:


> Customers have a voice in this. Let Verizon know that you'd sooner give up FiOS than give up your TiVo.


IPTV is the future and it is just a matter of time for everyone to be on some kind of IP-based system.

resisting it is futile.



> Let TiVo know that it's important they find a way to support IPTV. I've seen talk of a hardware solution (USB dongle).


this is where an inherently ip-based device, like TiVo, has an advantage. TiVo should have started this years ago.

if you haven't tried it, check out www.kylintv.com. the largest iptv based provider of tv programs.

that is the future of tv entertainment.


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## andrews777 (Aug 23, 2007)

knarf829 said:


> Customers have a voice in this. Let Verizon know that you'd sooner give up FiOS than give up your TiVo.


Except for the fact that I have signed up for a 3-year contract for both of my Tivo HD units I have absolutely no long term loyalty to Tivo. If Fios Cable hadn't been so cheap bundled with my Internet and home phone I would probably still be on Dish, especially since I liked their DVR (522) better.

I expect that the world will have advanced a lot in 3 years and I am willing to walk from the last part of my Tivo contract if I had to do so when my 2 year Fios Commitment (and price lock) is up. 

Brad


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

qili said:


> IPTV is the future and it is just a matter of time for everyone to be on some kind of IP-based system.


AT&T's UVerse (or whatever it's called) uses IPTV. You can only get 1 HD channel at a time, and it is apparently quite blocky/compressed.



qili said:


> if you haven't tried it, check out www.kylintv.com. the largest iptv based provider of tv programs.
> 
> that is the future of tv entertainment.


Chinese operas and soap operas, yikes. No thanks.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

The switch to IPTV isn't going to occur overnight. FiOS isn't going to simply 'flip a switch' three years from now causing your Tivo to stop working. It'll be a transition. They may launch IPTV service in three years, but there is no way the existing QAM service will end in three years.

FiOS intends to do IPTV using their next-generation MPEG-4 STBs. They do not plan to do any IPTV (aside from VOD) using the existing Motorola MPEG-2 STBs. The first of the new STBs will become available in late 2008 or early 2009.

FiOS has plans to do IPTV with GPON, not BPON. BPON only provides 20Mbps average per customer, while GPON can provide 75Mbps per customer. FiOS has begun upgrading some COs to support GPON, but all customers still have BPON ONTs (the box on the side of your home or in your basement) which must be replaced.

One would expect Verizon to start replacing STBs and ONTs in 1H 2009, but how long will it take to upgrade 2-3 million video customers? It's going to be a long process.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> One would expect Verizon to start replacing STBs and ONTs in 1H 2009, but how long will it take to upgrade 2-3 million video customers? It's going to be a long process.


agreed. it is likely that they will have to roll it out by regions, like they did with fios.

but that sure is the most bandwidth-efficient approach.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

TexasAg said:


> AT&T's UVerse (or whatever it's called) uses IPTV. You can only get 1 HD channel at a time, and it is apparently quite blocky/compressed.


Just because someone did it poorly doesn't mean everyone has to do it poorly.



> Chinese operas and soap operas, yikes. No thanks.


you missed the point. kylin is heavily courted now by VCs because of their technological expertise and lessons learned in the roll-out of their services. This of those guys as TiVo in 1999, only with the next gen technology.

With the same infrastructure, you can stuff any of the networks and you will be able to watch them anywhere in the world your favorite shows anytime.

or your DVDs.

or listen to your CDs, or audio books, or magazines.

It is very promising.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

knarf829 said:


> Let TiVo know that it's important they find a way to support IPTV. I've seen talk of a hardware solution (USB dongle).


I think the USB dongle you're thinking of is for SDV which is not the same as IPTV. In theory, at least, the S3 and THD already have all the hardware necessary for IPTV, it would just be a case of writing the software, assuming that verizon were willing to share the specs.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

bkdtv said:


> One would expect Verizon to start replacing STBs and ONTs in 1H 2009, but how long will it take to upgrade 2-3 million video customers? It's going to be a long process.


2-3 million customers?!

I just read earlier this week that it's more like half-a-million, nationwide right now with TV, just over a million with Internet.

http://www.buffalonews.com/businesstoday/localbusiness/story/167530.html

Or are you extrapolating to 2009?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> 2-3 million customers?!
> 
> I just read earlier this week that it's more like half-a-million, nationwide right now with TV, just over a million with Internet.
> 
> ...


Yes, I am extrapolating. Verizon said it had 515,000 TV customers at the end of June, and was averaging 2,600 FiOS TV customer additions per day. Assuming that hasn't changed, they have about 744,000 as of today, or about 1,000,000 by the end of the 2007, and another million by the end of 2008.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

This wouldn't be a significant problem if firewire from cable boxes was actually reliable and could pass two tuners worth of MPEG data. (The bandwidth is there, but the software is not)

I wouldn't mind too much having one cable box connected to the TiVo using firewire, if it was dual tuner (or more!) capable.

Of course, the FCC would have to get off their duff and require firewire of all multichannel video providers, not just the ones who can currently screw us with SDV. If they did that, we could have one TiVo that would work with cable, satellite, IPTV, or anything else under the sun that has channel numbers.

It wouldn't be too nice for those of us in areas where the cable company doesn't even have HD boxes that aren't DVRs, though.


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## knarf829 (Jun 10, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> The switch to IPTV isn't going to occur overnight. FiOS isn't going to simply 'flip a switch' three years from now causing your Tivo to stop working. It'll be a transition. They may launch IPTV service in three years, but there is no way the existing QAM service will end in three years.


Did you read the article? I'm not sure what your definition of "an all-IPTV platform within three years" is, but mine is "an all-IPTV platform within three years."


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## mulscully (May 31, 2003)

petew said:


> I think the USB dongle you're thinking of is for SDV which is not the same as IPTV. In theory, at least, the S3 and THD already have all the hardware necessary for IPTV, it would just be a case of writing the software, assuming that verizon were willing to share the specs.


agreed.. it's that essentially what were doing to MRV(when available) and tivo cast, etc.


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## knarf829 (Jun 10, 2007)

petew said:


> I think the USB dongle you're thinking of is for SDV which is not the same as IPTV. In theory, at least, the S3 and THD already have all the hardware necessary for IPTV, it would just be a case of writing the software, assuming that verizon were willing to share the specs.


So the situation is not nearly as bleak as I think it is?


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> Yes, I am extrapolating. Verizon said it had 515,000 TV customers at the end of June, and was averaging 2,600 FiOS TV customer additions per day. Assuming that hasn't changed, they have about 744,000 as of today, or about 1,000,000 by the end of the 2007, and another million by the end of 2008.


I could believe even higher numbers. Where FIOS is arriving here in our township people are switching in droves. It also seems to be the "high value" customers that switch, those with premium/digital/Internet from Comcast. The cheap package guys with basic cable seem to stay with Comcast.

A Straw pole of people in my street suggests over 50% of them will switch to FIOS on the first day it is available.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

nhaigh said:


> A Straw pole of people in my street suggests over 50% of them will switch to FIOS on the first day it is available.


we don't have fios yet but everyone I talked to in my neighbor had expressed their desires to switch asap.

it is also a high-income area.


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## d_anders (Oct 12, 2000)

StuffOfInterest said:


> In the end, with several branches of video delivery technology developing, TiVo is going to have to come up with a way to control cable boxes in HD mode. They did it for years with SD, and I understand that HD is more complicated because of HDCP and the additional bandwidth required, but with the power of processors improving there has to be a point when it becomes feasible again.
> 
> The key for this to work will be and encoder and/or compressor that can handle HDMI or composite video input at better than real time. Once we get there it should be possible for TiVo to go back to an IR Blaster or serial link control for the cable box. With that, all of the headaches for CableCard, SDV, and (now) IPTV go away. Of course, this will throw you back to single tuner mode unless you have two converter boxes, but I can live with as an option if I can buy a HD TiVo and not have to worry about the cable company killing all my content with their next technology refresh.


Or require there there are outputs for each discretionary tuner.

The next major rev of Cable Card simply needs to accomodate SDV type feeds. Until then the "dongle" will have to be the method.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

knarf829 said:


> So the situation is not nearly as bleak as I think it is?


Well it depends whether verizon is willing to let Tivo in! As mulscully correctly pointed out conceptually recieving IPTV is not much different from MRV or TivoCast but Tivo needs Co-operation from Verizon or a FCC mandate forcing them to co-operate to be able to get it working.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

d_anders said:


> The next major rev of Cable Card simply needs to accomodate SDV type feeds. Until then the "dongle" will have to be the method.


The current rev of cablecard is fully capable of SDV. It is the host equipment that needs to support bi-directional communications.


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## Jazhuis (Aug 30, 2006)

classicsat said:


> The current rev of cablecard is fully capable of SDV. It is the host equipment that needs to *CableLabs won't currently allow to* support bi-directional communications.


Fixed that for you.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

classicsat said:


> The current rev of cablecard is fully capable of SDV. It is the host equipment that needs to support bi-directional communications.


the current TiVo hardware should also be capable of iptv: it is simply a client acting with a webserver. Being Linux based, the tivo boxes are best equipped to deal with those things.

Unfortunately, it is likely that Verizon and ATT will control the distribution specifics of their iptv implementation to knock out guys like TiVo: they have spent billions laying the nextwork. Why would they share the fruit of their labor with guy slike TiVo?


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## jimvaughan (Oct 3, 2002)

qili said:


> Why would they share the fruit of their labor with guys like TiVo?


To keep me (us) as customers?


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## mamosley (Apr 9, 2003)

I dont see why the ont's would need to be changed in order to implement iptv. Really all they do is change light back to electricity. I wish they would put some type of router functionality in the ont so video only customers wouldnt have to have a router in order for the vod, widgets, and program guide to work. Verizon is going to a gpon network and will have plenty of bandwidth for any future technologies.


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## sneagle (Jun 12, 2002)

I don't know an awful lot about these technical issues. But I do have both Tivo and FIOS, so I guess that allows me to comment 

- I thought that the cablecard concept was mandated by the FCC so that third party providers (eg. Tivo) could sell cableboxes for users. Is IPTV somehow exempt from this requirement? If not, then Tivo should be able to deal with the changes

- Verizon FIOS is a brand new cable company. Why are they changing specs just a few years after going public? Isn't that short-sighted? Their technology should have been fairly cutting edge at the onset. To introduce a new technology (and therefore new boxes) so soon seems like poor planning and expensive.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

jimvaughan said:


> To keep me (us) as customers?


you are not really a customer if keeping you means losing millions for ATT/Verizon.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

sneagle said:


> - Verizon FIOS is a brand new cable company. Why are they changing specs just a few years after going public? Isn't that short-sighted? Their technology should have been fairly cutting edge at the onset. To introduce a new technology (and therefore new boxes) so soon seems like poor planning and expensive.


is Verizon FIOS a public company? do we know for sure that going iptv means introduction of new boxes?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

qili said:


> is Verizon FIOS a public company? do we know for sure that going iptv means introduction of new boxes?


Verizon is a public company.

And they have no plans for IPTV aside from VOD with the current boxes. There are a number of articles online about the RFP for the new boxes. Here is one:

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=75926

They've also said in communications with the FCC that they won't be available in 1H 2008.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

sneagle said:


> - I thought that the cablecard concept was mandated by the FCC so that third party providers (eg. Tivo) could sell cableboxes for users. Is IPTV somehow exempt from this requirement? If not, then Tivo should be able to deal with the changes


FiOS received a one-year waiver from the FCC on the integration ban, which requires cable companies to use STBs without integrated CAS (i.e. their boxes must use CableCard or the not-yet-existent downloadable CAS). They've asked for an extension because their new boxes won't be ready when the waiver expires in July 2008.

Verizon recently announced an initiative to add IP capability to the CableCard specification. More information on that here:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6478073.html



> - Verizon FIOS is a brand new cable company. Why are they changing specs just a few years after going public? Isn't that short-sighted? Their technology should have been fairly cutting edge at the onset. To introduce a new technology (and therefore new boxes) so soon seems like poor planning and expensive.


Technologies like GPON and IPTV weren't available and/or wasn't mature at the time of launch.

The next-generation FiOS STBs and DVRs don't even exist yet. Verizon is taking bids from a number of companies to design and build these boxes for delivery in 2009.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

An interesting comment from ATT in the article bkdtv refrences


> AT&T has no interest in becoming the exclusive supplier of equipment for its video service, the telcos filing continued. There is no reason to believe that IP video providers will exhibit the same reluctance to enable consumer availability that the commission has experienced with cable operators and their suppliers


This implies that if Tivo asked ATT would allow them to support uVerse directly in an S2 or S3 with ethernet connectivity.


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## andrews777 (Aug 23, 2007)

nhaigh said:


> A Straw pole of people in my street suggests over 50% of them will switch to FIOS on the first day it is available.


I didn't switch the day it was available, though I scheduled it the following day when I found out it was available online after their ordering department had closed. 

It took them a bit over a week to get our here and it cost me a day off work, but I am completely satisfied now.

Though I wish the guide on the Tivo HD was better/smoother.

Brad


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

qili said:


> you are not really a customer if keeping you means losing millions for ATT/Verizon.


Uh, why would it mean losing anything?


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

knarf829 said:


> Customers have a voice in this. Let Verizon know that you'd sooner give up FiOS than give up your TiVo.


Yes. Because that's worked so well in getting DTV to not drop Tivo.


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## mulscully (May 31, 2003)

Well I for one left DTV 'cause of the tivo issue and moved to Fios and got a TivoHD. If FIOS does not play and let Tivo in on the IPTV, as much as it pains me to say, I can/will jump ship to Comcast. Well as log as they didn't screw things up with SDV or something first..

I am foremost a Tivo user.. The pipe for content is secondary to me...

Actually iptv being what it is.. does the cable provider matter as much as the internet connection.. Tivo could join up with an iptv provider and stream content from them directly to the Tivo Box say a tivocast on steroids...

As long as my shows get to my Tivo, i could care less How....


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

cwoody222 said:


> I don't think TiVo WANTS to go back to talking to a STB via IR blaster.
> 
> 'Cause consumers don't want that either. That was a huge drawback to TiVo in the past... "You mean I have to have ANOTHER box in my house?"
> 
> Plus, cable companies are going to stop making non-DVR STBs sooner or later so having a TiVo as an additional box next to a cable co DVR would be pointless.


What make you think the cable companies will stop providing NonDVR cableboxes? And by the way cable companies don't manufacture the boxes.


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## knarf829 (Jun 10, 2007)

cramer said:


> Yes. Because that's worked so well in getting DTV to not drop Tivo.


You mean because two companies always react the same way in situations that are pretty much not similar?

Verizon doesn't need to decide to "drop" or "not drop" TiVo. They don't need to decide whether to keep a contract with TiVo like DirecTV did. They have no business relationship with TiVo. Some of their customers are also customers of TiVo. Much different. Their decision will be whether or not to block their customers from using their service in the way their customers choose.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> Verizon is a public company.
> 
> And they have no plans for IPTV aside from VOD with the current boxes. There are a number of articles online about the RFP for the new boxes. Here is one:
> 
> ...


Well, I guess they changed their minds:

This is from the Verizon Fios forums by a VZ Tech THIS WEEK:

Just so you guys know, several SD channels are expected to go to an IPTV format by the end of the year. This would be seamless on Verizon boxes, but TIVO users would no longer be able to recieve these channels, at least until the "home gateway" in 2012. Another planned improvement is phasing out all qip 2xxx and 6xxx boxes to enable a switch to MPEG 4 encoding , which would enable 3 "uncompressed" HD channels per QAM easily. All of this is expected by the end of this year, along with the new 7232 DVR with external expansion support enabled and a true 16:9 Guide. Whether any of this is actually done by christmas, is anybody's guess.
..


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I really haven't a clue- but a wonder if the FCC will have a cow if they try to move stuff that is cablecard qam now to IPTV. It's sort of like cable using SDV- and cable was worried enough about the FCC for that to make the tuning adapters for tivos to keep the FCC off their back there.

I guess if they just do it with SD stuff that has HD equivalents than they can say the channel still is there for tivo's.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

That's fine for me. But if they start movinh HD channels and I can't get them with my TiVos, I wil have no choice but to dump FiOS TV. Even if they gave me free service for life, I would not want to use their DVRs. If I can't use a TiVo on the TV service to receive my HD channels, then I won't use that service.


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## wesmills (Mar 8, 2006)

I suppose it would depend on what channels are moved to IPTV-only, but this still baffles me. Verizon is running an 860MHz (or is it 1GHz? I haven't been able to get a straight answer) CATV overlay on one of their fiber wavelengths. Unlike every other cable company on the continent, this wavelength has no analog channels and does not compete with Internet and telephone offerings because those are run over separate wavelengths. This means the entire signal is available solely for television use.

I understand--and approve of the fact--that Verizon is trying to keep picture quality excellent, but surely this can be accomplished by moving to MPEG4, as the post (which can be found here, on Verizon's forum) also stated was coming. Since TiVo and Moxi both can decode MPEG4 so far as I know--and it would be insane if their newer boxes couldn't--then going 3 HD per QAM, and probably 5-6 SD per QAM, would free up a lot of space without going IPTV and ticking off paying customers who almost always have other options but chose Verizon.

Edited to add: I agree with aaronwt's sentiment about Verizon's DVR. I have one sitting right in front of me, next to my TiVo HD, that I got for a free three month trial. The only thing it does better than my TiVo is change channels wickedly fast when channel surfing. I'm not the only one in my household that thinks so. The wife and kid tried it too, and they'd riot if they had to give up their TiVo units.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Does anyone know which SD channels? I don't see an issue if it's the channels are also available in HD. I'm not even sure if there is a reason to carry SD and HD versions of the same channel. Won't all HD STB downscale for SD TV sets? Customers will either have to pay for a SD box or FiOS will charge SD pricing for a HD box but possibly disable HD output.

I had a FiOS DVR. I didn't think it was that bad. Their guide data wasn't as good as the Tribune data tivo uses. It doesn't let us transfer a show to our PC. The hard drive is limited and can't be upgraded.

For basic recordings including their version of SPs it works OK.


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## oViTynoT (May 18, 2007)

probably all that .tv crap.

Mine are already gone.


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## sgip2000 (Jun 19, 2009)

I just got a notice that they are removing "The Movie Channel" Western feeds. That will free up a few spots.


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