# Still worth it to get HR10-250?



## spiffy (Oct 23, 2002)

Hi everyone,

Is it still worth it to get a HR10-250? I live in the SF Bay Area (south of San Jose, north of Gilroy) -- but I am not in Comcast territory -- which doesn't matter anyway, because my mother watches an international channel which only D* carries, so we're pretty much tied to D* until she changes her mind. Granted I haven't done a lot of research; but I have no idea when (or if) my local channels are going to start broadcast in Mpeg-4... Even then, I am in a hilly area where OTA signals are difficult to get.

My mother has a HD-ready monitor -- no tuner, but I understand she only needs an external HD tuner if she's getting OTA programming. I am seeing some used HR10-250 for sale in the $250 ~ $350 range on my local craigslist; I am wondering if it's worth it still to get it so I can upgrade her setup? I worry that it's going to be obsolete within a year because of the whole Mpeg-4 issue.

(I'd rather not have to lease the H20 from D* if I don't have to...)

Any insights will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Spiffy


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

See this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=345889


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

I detest today's DirecTV, but I am moving my whole house (a bunch of locations) back to the HR10-250s. I tried the DirecTV-branded recievers, abysmally awful. I also tried Tivo s3s with cable & OTA, and I very much wanted that to work, but it didn't, quite. Close call.

The HR10-250, if you can get local OTA HiDef channels, with OS 3.1.5f hacked, is the best by far of all I have tried. I badly miss folders (but the HR10-250 with OS 6.x is unacceptable) and Tivoserver, and no queston the HR10-250s are slow, but on balance this is the best TV entertainment environment available today.

Hopefully with the Morlok gone there is some hope for the future of DirecTV. FIOS, of course, looms like a vulture over DirecTV if they can't turn it around.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Redux said:


> (but the HR10-250 with OS 6.x is unacceptable)


Apparently Redux has had a bad experience with 6.3x, but I had 4 HR10-250's that worked beautifully after the 6.3x upgrades. Only show-stopping issue I had was the OTA HD audio dropout problem that was corrected with 6.3b. Even if you don't need folders, IMO, it's worth the upgrade to 6.3x for the speed with which you can now add or manage recordings and season's passes. Just my .02. /steve


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

If you can't get OTA, I can't recommend getting one of these at this time. I love mine and do a huge amount of HD OTA and just a bit of hbo/sho recording for good measure. I can't get in the 119 so those HD channels are moot for me. But im happy for the huge hard drives and folders and speed! 

If you cant get ota, you are stuck with having to activate a new receiver now, paying 10 bucks for HD mandatory package, and only getting the national channels that exist now (and who knows how long for?) 

If there are any issues with mpeg2 locals from NY or LA I have not included them in this discussion as i'm not familiar with the rules like 'moving' and such.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

newsposter said:


> If you cant get ota, you are stuck with having to activate a new receiver now, paying 10 bucks for HD mandatory package, and only getting the national channels that exist now (and who knows how long for?)


Of course DirecTV can do anything it wants, but I heard the existing MPEG2 HD channels will stay MPEG2 and that new channels that are added will go on the new sat as MPEG4.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

DirecTV won't be able to broadcast the exising 70-79 HD channels in MPEG-4 until the next sat goes up at the end of this year or the beginning of next. Even then, those channels won't "move" to MPEG-4, they'll be simulcast along with the MPEG-2 channels. There are 13,000,000 MPEG-2 HD receivers out there now. DirecTV will not be able to replace all of these for a long, long time. Just my .02. /steve


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

I had no idea there were 13 mil nor that they cared. I thought they were doing this to force upgrade lease to new receivers and force us to pay 10/month extra


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

newsposter said:


> I had no idea there were 13 mil nor that they cared. I thought they were doing this to force upgrade lease to new receivers and force us to pay 10/month extra


Whatever their motives for the switch, MPEG-2 HD is gonna be around for a few more years, IMO. If not, why would D* sign an extension to their maintenance contract with Tivo that runs through 2010? You can look it up! /steve


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

13,000,000 MPEG-2 only receivers? Where did you hear that number...

At the last "quarterly" update webcast, I don't even think there where 2,000,000 HD subscribers yet... and I doubt most of them have an average of 7 HD receivers per household.

The MPEG-2 only receiver count is SIGNIFICANTLY lower then that... 
And based on I think it was the Q3/2006 webcast, they where on track to have most of them swapped out by early 2008.

MPEG-2 HD on the SAT stream is going to be gone (IMHO) by mid 2008.

Especially as the MPEG-4 starts to rollout, and more and more MPEG-2 only equipment subscribers start to proactively replace their receivers instead of waiting for DirecTV to contact them to replace it.


The reason for the "sign and extension" till 2010... Simple... There are still about 2.5 million SD-DTiVo's still out there... .and there may be a need for updated software... (Notice that last update because of the DST... )


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> 13,000,000 MPEG-2 only receivers? Where did you hear that number...
> 
> At the last "quarterly" update webcast, I don't even think there where 2,000,000 HD subscribers yet... and I doubt most of them have an average of 7 HD receivers per household.
> 
> ...


I'm assuming they will need to replace all boxes (HD and SD) with MPEG-4 boxes, especially once the FCC mandates the cutover to HD. As of 12/31/06, DirectTV actually had 16,000,000 subscribers. Since SD is MPEG-2 as well, it would take a Herculean effort to swap out all that equipment in less that a few years, don't you think?

And if MPEG-2 HD was going away in 2008, why the need to support the HR10's till 2010?

/steve


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

sluciani said:


> I'm assuming they will need to replace all boxes (HD and SD) with MPEG-4 boxes, once the FCC mandates the cutover to HD. As of 12/31/06, DirectTV actually had 16,000,000 subscribers. It would take a Herculean effort to swap out all that equipment that quickly, don't you think?
> 
> And if MPEG-2 HD is going away in 2008, why would they need to support the HR10's till 2010?
> 
> /steve


There is no such mandate.

The mandate is to switch to DIGITAL broadcasting (ATSC) instead of ANALOG broadcast (NTSC).

It has nothing to do with the CONTENT of that broadcast, just the technology that get's it from transmitter to your home.

As for Wiki and the 16,000,000... anyone can update a wiki post (in fact I just corrected that one today for the National GEO HD channel)

They have 16,000,000 customers (That is HD and SD combined). MPEG-2 SD is not going anywhere, anytime soon (if ever)... There are approximately 40,000,000 active receivers out there (average of 2.5 per subscriber).... Yes, it would be a Herculean effort to replace all of those units because of an MPEG-2 SD change... But the only "change" on the horizon, is the MPEG-2 HD stream

HR10 will still accept an SD MPEG-2 signal, and still be functional for the OTA stream. And until the final "switch" is done for the 8 or so MPEG-2 HD's, they will work.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> 13,000,000 MPEG-2 only receivers? Where did you hear that number...
> 
> At the last "quarterly" update webcast, I don't even think there where 2,000,000 HD subscribers yet... and I doubt most of them have an average of 7 HD receivers per household.
> 
> ...


I'll bet you a New York steak dinner vs. a Chicago steak dinner that there will still be HD MPEG-2 in 2009! (I realize Chicago steaks are better, so if you'd like a different cuisine, let me know!) 

/steve


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

sluciani said:


> I'll bet you a New York steak dinner vs. a Chicago steak dinner that there will still be HD MPEG-2 in 2009! (I realize Chicago steaks are better, so if you'd like a different cuisine, let me know!)
> 
> /steve


Sure... why not......
To clarrify: SAT-BASED MPEG-2 HD... as OTA (which is MPEG-2 HD) is not going anywhere anytime soon either.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

It's probably not so much about the raw numbers of boxes out there as it is what percentage of them are MPEG-2 only.

We're still in phase 1, which is to start getting hybrid (M2+M4) boxes out there (phase 2 being to begin duplicating programming on both M2 and M4, and phase 3 turning off M2).

Just a wild guess, but I would assume that somewhere over 95% of the STBs are still M2 only, which could be a conservative guess. To do a shutoff, it has to be on the order of 80% or greater ( 20% or less M2 only), which is probably at least a couple of years away.

Obviously the first thing to go would be niche programming, which HD is considered currently (though it might not be so "niche" by the time they want to turn M2 off).


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

To clarify further, the FCC mandate only deals with the licensing of terrestrial, over the air (OTA) TV transmissions. Cable companies, satellite companies, etc are not affected. IMHO, more likely than not, many cable companies will continue to broadcast stations like TBS, CNN, etc in SD analog for a while after the OTA cutover.



ebonovic said:


> There is no such mandate.
> 
> The mandate is to switch to DIGITAL broadcasting (ATSC) instead of ANALOG broadcast (NTSC).
> 
> ...


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## Neiko-MN (May 14, 2004)

I have a used HR10-250 that I just bought from a buddy of mine who gave up on DirecTV and switched to Comcast. I have tried calling twice (no 3 times actually) and CSRs all indicating that they cannot activate on the old access card. 

1) Has anyone lately gotten an activation of a used unit on it's used access card?

2) I'm not so opposed to getting a new access card, but if DirecTV is insisting that I have a new one, I don't agree that I should have to pay $20 for it. They are more than going to make up that $20 in HD content fees from me. 

3) Any good suggestions other than just calling and asking for retention? And if I do end up talking to retention, what do you think I can expect out of them?


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## Doright (Jan 10, 2002)

Neiko-MN said:


> 1) Has anyone lately gotten an activation of a used unit on it's used access card?


I've tried, they won't do it.



> 2) I'm not so opposed to getting a new access card, but if DirecTV is insisting that I have a new one, I don't agree that I should have to pay $20 for it. They are more than going to make up that $20 in HD content fees from me?


Good luck. I've been a customer in good standing for 10 years and activated 3 HR10's in the last few months. They can't (or won't) budge on the 20.00 fee.



> 3) Any good suggestions other than just calling and asking for retention? And if I do end up talking to retention, what do you think I can expect out of them?


Pay the 20.00. Not worth getting into a pissing contest.

To me, getting on the phone and bouncing back and forth between CSR's and customer retention, wasting an hour of my life, and dealing with all the frustration that comes with that - is not worth 50.00 let alone 20.00.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Neiko-MN said:


> Has anyone lately gotten an activation of a used unit on it's used access card?


Guess it depends on which CSR answers the phone. I activated a used HR10/access card just this past Monday. Couldn't have gone smoother. /steve


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

After the initial release of the S3, I was all ready to drop D* and go strictly OTA, now I am beginning to rethink this plan. 

I currently get pretty good OTA for all nets + PBS. I use one HR10-250 and one HDVR2 in another room. I dropped the D* HD package just before the last price bump and required HD pkg. I had few problems (reboots, missed recordings) with the HR10. 

Overall, I think if you get OTA HD, the HR10 is the best option out there. It's about the cheapest option for monthly costs. E* is more, Comcast is more. I currently am not forced to pay for Hd content and have access to SD via the Total choice pkg. The Dish 622 only privides one OTA hd tuner, so that is out. The S3 is still $600 + $12-$20/mo and Comcast is just way too expensive with all their monthly fees and such. 

I am beginning to realize the grass is not greener on the other side and plan to stick with the HR10 until it ceases to operate.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

rmassey said:


> E* is more... The Dish 622 only privides one OTA hd tuner


Yes, DISH costs more, but they have *alot* more HD channels. And the VIP622 does have 2 OTA tuners... unless I'm mistaken, I recall seeing a 622 recording two OTA stations at once. (not being a DISH subscriber, I'm not around 622's a lot.)

The HR10 has two OTA tuners -- crappy as they may be. It can physically record 4 things at once (2 OTA, 2 sat), but Tivo hasn't programmed it to actually take advantage of that.

Btw, all the grass is brown... no more DTivos, S3's are unidirectional and require dealing with some of the _worst_ people in the universe, etc. The HR10 would be a reasonable option if DTV weren't screwin' over SD channels in it's unholy quest for HD "capacity."


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

rmassey said:


> Overall, I think if you get OTA HD, the HR10 is the best option out there. It's about the cheapest option for monthly costs ... I am beginning to realize the grass is not greener on the other side and plan to stick with the HR10 until it ceases to operate.


Yes.

One of the few problems has been the OTA tuner. Relative to newer generations of tuners it has seemed less effective. As I've worked with it, the problem is clearly not sensitivity but vulnerability to multi-path. With just a bit of care in that regard, if you're in a complex reception area, it's a gem.

With some reluctance I recently moved from 3 to 6.3c on one of my HR10s and I've been pleased so far. I had missed folders, it certainly is snappier, and I'm not seeing the abberations of my earlier experiences with 6.3.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

cramer said:


> Yes, DISH costs more, but they have *alot* more HD channels. And the VIP622 does have 2 OTA tuners... unless I'm mistaken, I recall seeing a 622 recording two OTA stations at once. (not being a DISH subscriber, I'm not around 622's a lot.)


AFAIK, you are mistaken. The VIP 622 only allows recording of ONE HD OTA channel at a time. this is a deal breaker for me with OTA being my only source of HD and no Sat provided HD locals. This seems to be designed this way by dish to get you to sub to their locals package. You also get no guide data for HD locals without an SD locals sub from dish. Dish seems to be the king of nickel/dime fees on it's customers. With D*, I could unsub from the locals and still get HD local guide data on an HR10.

Now, if you are in a city the offers Sat HD locals, the 622 is great, offering the ability to record 2 Sat + one OTA for a total of three silmutaneous recordings.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

So for those of us that have the HR10-250 and love Tivo and Directv the big question is up in the air; Sometime between next summer and 2 or 3 years from now we will have to give up our Tivos to get any HD(unless we're part of that ever shrinking minority that still mostly watches the four fading networks).


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## cr33p (Jan 2, 2005)

Ok so I have read and read and read, and I seem to be a little bit confused. I live just outside of detroit, I have an HR10-250 in the mail, I called D*TV and they told me yes I can in fact recieved hd locals with a 3lnb dish, ,can anyone confirm this is true? I know I can record OTA which is nice and I will most likely get set up however I would like to not have to spend any more money for just a little bit here. 

Thanks

Chris


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## amallon (Jul 26, 2006)

cr33p said:


> Ok so I have read and read and read, and I seem to be a little bit confused. I live just outside of detroit, I have an HR10-250 in the mail, I called D*TV and they told me yes I can in fact recieved hd locals with a 3lnb dish, ,can anyone confirm this is true? I know I can record OTA which is nice and I will most likely get set up however I would like to not have to spend any more money for just a little bit here.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Chris


http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/html/DTV_LIL_STATE.html

According to this link, HD Locals for the Detroit area are on the 103 satellite, which IIRC means you would need the 5 LNB dish. Keep in mind though, regardless of what dish you have, you won't be able to receive those channels using the HR10-250. You'll need DirecTV's HR20 for that.

You may be able to pick up your HD locals via antenna though. Check http://www.antennaweb.org for more information.


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## tivoboy (Jan 14, 2002)

I don't think ANY hd locals are available with the H10-250. I have both, and only get HD locals on the H20-700 (not to be discussed here)


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## cr33p (Jan 2, 2005)

amallon said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/html/DTV_LIL_STATE.html
> 
> According to this link, HD Locals for the Detroit area are on the 103 satellite, which IIRC means you would need the 5 LNB dish. Keep in mind though, regardless of what dish you have, you won't be able to receive those channels using the HR10-250. You'll need DirecTV's HR20 for that.
> 
> You may be able to pick up your HD locals via antenna though. Check http://www.antennaweb.org for more information.


Well according to that web site there isnt a single place in all of the US that has hd locals on the 101/110/119 sats.Crappy I will just have to get a dumb antenna


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## jbernardis (Oct 22, 2003)

tivoboy said:


> I don't think ANY hd locals are available with the H10-250. I have both, and only get HD locals on the H20-700 (not to be discussed here)


HD locals are available in the HR10-250 in NY and LA (MPEG2). I live in the NY serving area and I receive them on my HR10-250.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

jbernardis said:


> HD locals are available in the HR10-250 in NY and LA (MPEG2).


Or, those locals waivered, in other locations.

I prefer OTA for locals. I have 2 stations waivered, but use the OTA anyway.


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## cr33p (Jan 2, 2005)

jbernardis said:


> HD locals are available in the HR10-250 in NY and LA (MPEG2). I live in the NY serving area and I receive them on my HR10-250.


Yes but me being in Detroit there is no way to recieve them right? I think there are no more waivers either ?


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## iaflyer (Oct 21, 2001)

cr33p said:


> Yes but me being in Detroit there is no way to receive them right? I think there are no more waivers either ?


The only way to get the NY or LA locals is to "move" and have a service address in those areas.

I live in Ann Arbor as well (west side) and get my HD locals via OTA using a small, cheap antenna. I get all the major networks fine except Fox 2 - I haven't put any effort into a better antenna as I've been busy. Now that the weather is warming up, I'll probably put some more effort into a better antenna.


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## tivoboy (Jan 14, 2002)

jbernardis said:


> HD locals are available in the HR10-250 in NY and LA (MPEG2). I live in the NY serving area and I receive them on my HR10-250.


so, this really isn't what is considered locals, since what there are, are two national feeds for all four networks, east and west coast. If you happen to live in that ONE city on each coast, then indeed it is local.

I get them as well, but live in the bay area. I get the LA feeds. I also get the SFO locals, but only on the 5LNB dish and only on the 103 and only with the HD DVR with no name.

Trust me, if you can get something OTA, you are WAY better off image wise.


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## cr33p (Jan 2, 2005)

iaflyer said:


> The only way to get the NY or LA locals is to "move" and have a service address in those areas.
> 
> I live in Ann Arbor as well (west side) and get my HD locals via OTA using a small, cheap antenna. I get all the major networks fine except Fox 2 - I haven't put any effort into a better antenna as I've been busy. Now that the weather is warming up, I'll probably put some more effort into a better antenna.


What type of antenna have you been using? I got a reply today from solid signal and they suggested a db4 which is friggin huge, Id rather not make my house look like im talkin to aliens


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## iaflyer (Oct 21, 2001)

cr33p said:


> What type of antenna have you been using? I got a reply today from solid signal and they suggested a db4 which is friggin huge, Id rather not make my house look like im talkin to aliens


I'm using a Philips PM-HDTV1 Silver Sensor - it's an indoor antenna, but works fine outside. It's about 8 inches long - I've got it mounted on my flat roof pointed towards the NE as antennaweb.org suggested. It is a very directional antenna, but it works well since all the TV towers seem to be located to the NE of town. It even pulls the signal through my house (the house is between the TV towers and the antenna). However, I'm on a bit of a hill so I might have better reception of the signal.

They sell them at Circuit City.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

cr33p said:


> What type of antenna have you been using? I got a reply today from solid signal and they suggested a db4 which is friggin huge, Id rather not make my house look like im talkin to aliens


i hung my db8 in the attic for a few weeks. Not so huge depending on space.

now when you get into this..ur talkin


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