# Xfinity OnDemand XOD Alternatives?



## JimAV (Aug 22, 2013)

In addition to ending support for your ondemand programming on my TiVo. Comcast is also continuing to not support: *HBOGO* which is available to TiVo users on with other Cable Co's.
Is that accurate?

In addition: I can subscribe to a number of premium channels like HBO Showtime Starz and many many more via the Amazon App right on my TiVo. See: Amazon Channels

So why wouldn't I just do that? Keep my TiVo, subscribe to the Premium channels I want to pay for and pickup most everything else via Amazon, Netflix, Hulu etc.

Something to think about, I guess. Wouldn't it be nice if millions TiVo Owners all start calling Xfinity and cancelling their Premium Channel Subscriptions between now and June 25, 2019

What Is Amazon Channels and Is it Worth It?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

JimAV said:


> In addition to ending support for your ondemand programming on my TiVo. Comcast is also continuing to not support: *HBOGO* which is available to TiVo users on with other Cable Co's.
> Is that accurate?
> 
> In addition: I can subscribe to a number of premium channels like HBO Showtime Starz and many many more via the Amazon App right on my TiVo. See: Amazon Channels
> ...


Comcast has never allowed their customers to use the HBO Go app on TiVo. I've recently read on this forum that they *may* be looking into changing that decision soon but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

And, yes, you can add premium channel subscriptions to your Prime Video subscription and access all the content on-demand in the Prime Video app. Same is true for Hulu, although unfortunately the Hulu app on TiVo is an older version that doesn't support premium add-ons. (Actually, the old version Hulu app on TiVo *might* support their very first add-on, Showtime, but definitely doesn't support any of the others.)


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## giomania (Aug 25, 2017)

Dont forget...accessing anything over the Internet counts against the data cap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## JimAV (Aug 22, 2013)

giomania said:


> Dont forget...accessing anything over the Internet counts against the data cap.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I don't have a data cap, as far as I know. I'll check

I also have FIOS my in my Garage!

Move the CoAX swap the cable card...

Easy peasy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

giomania said:


> Dont forget...accessing anything over the Internet counts against the data cap.


Not all states have the cap.
Only the states on this list.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

JimAV said:


> I don't have a data cap, as far as I know. I'll check
> 
> I also have FIOS my in my Garage!
> 
> ...


If you have Verizon FiOS available at your address, and you want to keep using TiVos for the long-term, then you should definitely check out FiOS TV + Internet. From what I've read, I tend to think it will be an overall better experience for the same or less money.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

JimAV said:


> In addition to ending support for your ondemand programming on my TiVo. Comcast is also continuing to not support: *HBOGO* which is available to TiVo users on with other Cable Co's. Is that accurate?


It is accurate as concerns TiVo (pending possible future development). However, you can access HBO GO through your Comcast subscription on other devices, such as a PC, tablet, smart phone or Roku.



JimAV said:


> In addition: I can subscribe to a number of premium channels like HBO Showtime Starz and many many more via the Amazon App right on my TiVo. See: Amazon Channels
> 
> So why wouldn't I just do that? Keep my TiVo, subscribe to the Premium channels I want to pay for and pickup most everything else via Amazon, Netflix, Hulu etc.


That is certainly a viable option. Some potential drawbacks are:

1. You can often get discounted pricing or "customer courtesy" freebies from Comcast on the premium channels (although that has gotten much harder to do this year with HBO). I myself had both HBO (and SHO) with Comcast for no more than $1.00 p.m. for about four or five years before I started getting charged the full $15 a couple of months ago. And I currently have a steeply discounted bundle for HSI + Digital Preferred TV that includes Starz.

2. AFAIK, with Amazon channels you are locked in by the month. With Comcast, you can start and stop your premiums any time you wish (either on-line or via phone) and will only be charged pro rata for the days of service.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

The issue is some of us have premiums as part of a package, so Amazon is not worth the extra cost. The best solution is a Roku and either HBO go or the Comcast app. The app will get you all the channels on demand, not just premiums.

I can switch over to Roku faster than the amazon app takes to load on Tivo.

I went to Xfinity to see how much another box would be and they want $10 plus another $10 for HD fee to add a box. They have adapters for 50 cents but they won't do on demand.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

This is neither here nor there, I guess, but I'm betting that the existing HBO Go and HBO Now apps will die later this year or early next year, replaced by the new HBO Max app (or whatever the name of the HBO-based WarnerMedia SVOD is). Like the Starz app, which is a unified app for all Starz subscribers, whether they get it through a traditional cable/sat operator or as a standalone streaming service, I think this new HBO Max app will be for everyone. They'll probably make it so that all the existing active logins for both HBO Go and HBO Now transfer over and (hopefully) seamlessly work in the new app.

Rumor published in the WSJ yesterday says that the new service will combine HBO, Cinemax, plus Warner's other sources of current and past non-sports/non-news content, including TBS, TNT, Cartoon Network, CNN (docs and docuseries), DC Universe, etc. All for $16-17/mo, barely more than HBO by itself currently costs. This is going to be their "all-hands-on-deck" effort to create a Netflix killer.

I had been predicting that it would combine HBO and Cinemax since I heard the leaked tentative name of HBO Max awhile back. Sounds pretty great. I might have to keep this one year-round.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

KevTech said:


> Not all states have the cap.
> Only the states on this list.


Basically, they scrap the cap in areas where they have to compete with Fios.

Otherwise, I think you can buy your way out of the cap for +$50/mo. (?)


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## timstack8969 (May 14, 2004)

I'm using the Beta Xfinity Stream App on my Samsung Smart TV. Works well


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

giomania said:


> Dont forget...accessing anything over the Internet counts against the data cap.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The Xfinity Stream app doesn't count against your data cap. If you have Comcast, you should use that.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

I just bought and installed a Roku Ultra (my very first Roku device) primarily in order to access XoD on the TV (as opposed to my PC, phones and tablets, where it is already accessible but cannot be cast to the TV). I figured I might as well have a Roku on hand to prepare for the impending full implementation of Xfinity's IPTV service. So far, I'm finding it handy but have a lot more customization and experimentation to do. 

I've always been curious to try out Roku anyway since their devices seem to be very popular, but the degree of streaming redundancy I've opted for is pretty insane right now. Between my Sony Z9D "smart" TV, Nvidia Shield, Fire TV 4K stick, TiVo Roamio Pro, Sony multi-region BDP-S5200, Google ChromeCast, and others, the variety of sources in my setup is ridiculous. But in reality, I use the Nvidia Shield almost exclusively for any video streaming services on my main TV and the Fire TV 4K on my bedroom TV. 

I plan to rely on the Roku just for XoD and HBO Go for now.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

smark said:


> The Xfinity Stream app doesn't count against your data cap. If you have Comcast, you should use that.


True. And it's also worth nothing that only a tiny percentage of homes exceed the 1 TB data cap. Unless you're a household that watches all your TV/video via streaming (e.g. you have a streaming cable service like YouTube TV instead of Xfinity TV), your data cap probably isn't something you have to worry about. In other words, if the average HBO subscriber did all of their viewing through the HBO Go app, it's probably not going to get them in trouble with their Comcast data cap.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

I canceled my Xfinity AND my Tivo before June 25th. Great decision!


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> I just bought and installed a Roku Ultra (my very first Roku device) primarily in order to access XoD on the TV (as opposed to my PC, phones and tablets, where it is already accessible but cannot be cast to the TV). I figured I might as well have a Roku on hand to prepare for the impending full implementation of Xfinity's IPTV service. So far, I'm finding it handy but have a lot more customization and experimentation to do.
> 
> I've always been curious to try out Roku anyway since their devices seem to be very popular, but the degree of streaming redundancy I've opted for is pretty insane right now. Between my Sony Z9D "smart" TV, Nvidia Shield, Fire TV 4K stick, TiVo Roamio Pro, Sony multi-region BDP-S5200, Google ChromeCast, and others, the variety of sources in my setup is ridiculous. But in reality, I use the Nvidia Shield almost exclusively for any video streaming services on my main TV and the Fire TV 4K on my bedroom TV.
> 
> I plan to rely on the Roku just for XoD and HBO Go for now.


I've found the Roku to be my favorite. No need for all the other devices. Virtually everything is available on Roku. The Ultra remote is quite nice, too. We have smart TV's and what not. I found Roku way better than Fire and infinitely better than the smart Tv's (they have too limited apps). We ended up just switching to Roku for everything and since I needed to replace my broken Samsung, I ended up grabbing a TCL Roku TV and adding the Roku speakers (AWESOME). It's a seriously great product. All the apps are updated (unlike Tivo).


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> True. And it's also worth nothing that only a tiny percentage of homes exceed the 1 TB data cap. Unless you're a household that watches all your TV/video via streaming (e.g. you have a streaming cable service like YouTube TV instead of Xfinity TV), your data cap probably isn't something you have to worry about. In other words, if the average HBO subscriber did all of their viewing through the HBO Go app, it's probably not going to get them in trouble with their Comcast data cap.


The data cap is a very real concern. We switched to 100% streaming and will do close to 3TB for the month. Luckily, ATT fiber is available in my area so I dumped Comcast and went with gigabit fiber, which is the level that doesn't have a cap. There is also toast.net which has no data caps and lower speeds. I'm at $70/mo for gigabit (12 months). But yeah, I definitely wouldn't switch to full streaming with a 1TB data cap. On Comcast, it would add an extra $50/mo to the bill for unlimited.

The only reason a tiny percentage exceed 1TB is because only a tiny percentage are streaming TV. That's starting to change, rapidly. Youtube TV is even sponsoring the NBA Finals. These data caps are going to be regulated or something soon enough. It's the last bit of nonsense for Comcast to hold their customers hostage. Their time will come.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

BNBTivo said:


> I've found the Roku to be my favorite. * No need for all the other devices.* Virtually everything is available on Roku. The Ultra remote is quite nice, too. We have smart TV's and what not. I found Roku way better than Fire and infinitely better than the smart Tv's (they have too limited apps). We ended up just switching to Roku for everything and since I needed to replace my broken Samsung, I ended up grabbing a TCL Roku TV and adding the Roku speakers (AWESOME). It's a seriously great product. All the apps are updated (unlike Tivo).


Sadly, there is very much a need for the other devices since no single one does everything or does it well. The Amazon Fire TV 4K does Dolby Vision and Atmos (for Amazon Video streams), the Nvidia Shield has a gigabit ethernet port (among many other advancements) but no Dolby Vision, and the Roku is the most basic of the lot IME. But none of them supports Atmos on the Netflix app; for that feature you would need still another device, such as the Apple TV 4K.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BNBTivo said:


> The data cap is a very real concern. We switched to 100% streaming and will do close to 3TB for the month. Luckily, ATT fiber is available in my area so I dumped Comcast and went with gigabit fiber, which is the level that doesn't have a cap. There is also toast.net which has no data caps and lower speeds. I'm at $70/mo for gigabit (12 months). But yeah, I definitely wouldn't switch to full streaming with a 1TB data cap. On Comcast, it would add an extra $50/mo to the bill for unlimited.
> 
> The only reason a tiny percentage exceed 1TB is because only a tiny percentage are streaming TV. That's starting to change, rapidly. Youtube TV is even sponsoring the NBA Finals. These data caps are going to be regulated or something soon enough. It's the last bit of nonsense for Comcast to hold their customers hostage. Their time will come.


As I said in the post that you quoted "Unless you're a household that watches all your TV/video via streaming, your data cap probably isn't something you have to worry about." I understand that the situation is different for you, since you use YouTube TV, but the comment I was making was in the context of this thread, which is about Xfinity TV customers who, by definition, are traditional cable TV subscribers, not "streaming cable" subscribers like you. It's not that surprising that data caps are an issue for your household. (But 3 TB? Wow.)

The talk up-thread touched on concern about streaming through the Xfinity Stream app (which doesn't count against your Comcast data cap) versus the HBO Go app (which does count against it). My point is that people who subscribe to Comcast cable TV shouldn't need to worry about how much data they might use in the HBO Go app because they're probably not going to come close to their cap anyway. Honestly, how many hours of HBO does the average subscriber stream in a month? For instance, you'd have to stream 11 hours of Netflix's top-quality 1080p HD video every day to hit 1 TB of usage in a month. And HBO uses a lower bitrate than Netflix, so it would take even more hours of it to add up to that amount. I mean, HBO has a lot of great stuff, but c'mon.

The situation that you're running into with using so much data by going 100% streaming with YouTube TV is a major reason why those OTT streaming cable TV services won't become mainstream for multi-person households (i.e. families) unless the household has access to uncapped broadband (without having to pay extra to remove a cap) OR unless their broadband provider zero-rates the data incurred through the streaming cable TV service that they use. I'm not yet aware of any who do the latter but I can imagine over the next few years some broadband providers deciding to stop operating their own low-margin cable TV services and instead just partnering with a national OTT service like YouTube TV, Hulu with Live TV, or the forthcoming AT&T streaming cable TV service, and then not counting those streams against your data cap. (This is the sort of scenario that net neutrality activists warned about.)

But unless uncapped broadband or zero-rated OTT partner services more common, then I don't see these OTT cable TV services becoming super-popular. (It's true, though, that Charter does not have data caps and they're the second-largest broadband provider.) They'll continue to steal away some subscribers from traditional cable/satellite/telco TV operators at the margins but, for this and other reasons too, I don't see them becoming huge.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> Sadly, there is very much a need for the other devices since no single one does everything or does it well. The Amazon Fire TV 4K does Dolby Vision and Atmos (for Amazon Video streams), the Nvidia Shield has a gigabit ethernet port (among many other advancements) but no Dolby Vision, and the Roku is the most basic of the lot IME. But none of them supports Atmos on the Netflix app; for that feature you would need still another device, such as the Apple TV 4K.


Someone needing gigabit and Atmos is in a very small minority. For you, clearly you need a ton of devices. For the majority, it's unnecessary. That was the point I was trying to make. And I'm really not sure what you need gigabit for on a streaming device, but if you are using it, cool.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> As I said in the post that you quoted "Unless you're a household that watches all your TV/video via streaming, your data cap probably isn't something you have to worry about." I understand that the situation is different for you, since you use YouTube TV, but the comment I was making was in the context of this thread, which is about Xfinity TV customers who, by definition, are traditional cable TV subscribers, not "streaming cable" subscribers like you. It's not that surprising that data caps are an issue for your household. (But 3 TB? Wow.)
> 
> The talk up-thread touched on concern about streaming through the Xfinity Stream app (which doesn't count against your Comcast data cap) versus the HBO Go app (which does count against it). My point is that people who subscribe to Comcast cable TV shouldn't need to worry about how much data they might use in the HBO Go app because they're probably not going to come close to their cap anyway. Honestly, how many hours of HBO does the average subscriber stream in a month? For instance, you'd have to stream 11 hours of Netflix's top-quality 1080p HD video every day to hit 1 TB of usage in a month. And HBO uses a lower bitrate than Netflix, so it would take even more hours of it to add up to that amount. I mean, HBO has a lot of great stuff, but c'mon.
> 
> ...


When we had Comcast TV, we would use about 700gb of data per month. And we really weren't using 4k or anything. Now that we stream a bunch of 4k along with 1080p tv, it adds up quickly. I honestly would never think we would use more than 1TB but it adds up lightning fast. As you said, 11 hours of Netflix 1080P.... well, figure a household with 4 TV watchers. Kids home during summer, stay at home wife, I personally stay home and work from home quite a bit. Then have some 4k streaming.... even with 4 TV watchers, that 11 hours is now a paltry 2.5 hours/day to hit the cap on just 1080p.

As for not counting against the cap, a lot of that will have to do with legislation over the coming years. A change in the administration and we get net neutrality, that'll make a big difference. Streaming TV is the future. It's like trying to argue that you can't imagine digital music overtaking CD's. Uncapped is coming. You can already get toast.net anywhere ATT Fiber is available, cheap, uncapped fiber. Google has their own fiber offerings expanding. And as more and more people are killing the 1TB caps, it's just going to get more and more. It really is just a matter of time before cable boxes are irrelevant and we laugh about them like a VCR.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BNBTivo said:


> As for not counting against the cap, a lot of that will have to do with legislation over the coming years. A change in the administration and we get net neutrality, that'll make a big difference. Streaming TV is the future. It's like trying to argue that you can't imagine digital music overtaking CD's. Uncapped is coming. You can already get toast.net anywhere ATT Fiber is available, cheap, uncapped fiber. Google has their own fiber offerings expanding. And as more and more people are killing the 1TB caps, it's just going to get more and more. It really is just a matter of time before cable boxes are irrelevant and we laugh about them like a VCR.


I agree with a lot of what you're saying here but not all of it. I doubt that data caps are going to go away unless they're legislated to do so (which, admittedly, is a possibility). Know who's one of the most profitable broadband providers in the nation? CableOne (now rebranded as Sparklight), who no longer actively sells their own cable TV service but who has the most onerous data caps of any sizable operator. They have caps as low as 100 GB. Their $65/mo plan offers 200 Mbps speed and a data cap of 600 GB (just 60% of the 1 TB cap enforced by Comcast, AT&T, Cox and CenturyLink). As CableOne's plan prices increase, so do the speeds and caps. Heck, their CSRs will actively help customers dump their own TV service and guide them through their options for picking one or more streaming services to serve as a replacement. They know they'll make more money on them through broadband fees than the tiny margins they were eking out from them on their cable TV package.

Who are these providers you mention who are killing the cap? Yes, I know about Toast.net (which I suggested to someone on this forum recently) but not many people do. If their customers ever start eating up too much data or steal too much business from AT&T Fiber's own plans, you can bet that AT&T will deal with them. Charter is the biggest broadband provider with no caps but that's a condition of Charter's acquisition of Time Warner Cable and Brighthouse Cable a few years back. When that condition expires in a few years, I expect they'll introduce them unless the competitive landscape has changed so that a whole lot of their customers have a competitively priced uncapped alternative.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> I agree with a lot of what you're saying here but not all of it. I doubt that data caps are going to go away unless they're legislated to do so (which, admittedly, is a possibility). Know who's one of the most profitable broadband providers in the nation? CableOne (now rebranded as Sparklight), who no longer actively sells their own cable TV service but who has the most onerous data caps of any sizable operator. They have caps as low as 100 GB. Their $65/mo plan offers 200 Mbps speed and a data cap of 600 GB (just 60% of the 1 TB cap enforced by Comcast, AT&T, Cox and CenturyLink). As CableOne's plan prices increase, so do the speeds and caps. Heck, their CSRs will actively help customers dump their own TV service and guide them through their options for picking one or more streaming services to serve as a replacement. They know they'll make more money on them through broadband fees than the tiny margins they were eking out from them on their cable TV package.
> 
> Who are these providers you mention who are killing the cap? Yes, I know about Toast.net (which I suggested to someone on this forum recently) but not many people do. If their customers ever start eating up too much data or steal too much business from AT&T Fiber's own plans, you can bet that AT&T will deal with them. Charter is the biggest broadband provider with no caps but that's a condition of Charter's acquisition of Time Warner Cable and Brighthouse Cable a few years back. When that condition expires in a few years, I expect they'll introduce them unless the competitive landscape has changed so that a whole lot of their customers have a competitively priced uncapped alternative.


My ATT fiber has no cap. What you are saying is that RIGHT NOW there are data caps. Yeah, totally. And for the near future, as CableOne is doing, that's where the money will be. But that's not going to last. As more people switch to streaming data/TV, there will be more competition from internet providers and demand from consumers. Prices don't go up on this stuff, prices go down over time. Which means as time goes on, you'll get more data for less money, as already happens. The remaining providers screwing people with data caps and overage charges will be pushed out. It's not going to happen overnight, of course. But it's coming.

Eventually, internet will be a utility totally unbundled from TV/content. At least in it's current form. Regulation and competition are going to rapidly resolve this. I bet within the next 2 - 5 years you won't see data caps anymore on anything but super budget offerings. Even my high speed wireless 4G internet has no data cap (Ubifi). My cell has no data cap (unheard of years ago). And isn't this part of the 5G plan? To eliminate hard wired internet to homes, provide all the content you want, etc wirelessly. Technology is putting data caps and archaic cable boxes to rest, and it's going to happen fast. We won't get content the same way in the near future, that's for sure.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Additional FYI for iPhone/iPad users..... with the rollout of AirPlay 2, you can now Airplay from your device directly to newer Samsung TVs, without having to go thru an AppleTV. This can be helpful for those using the Xfinity app on an iDevice.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BNBTivo said:


> My ATT fiber has no cap. What you are saying is that RIGHT NOW there are data caps. Yeah, totally. And for the near future, as CableOne is doing, that's where the money will be. But that's not going to last. As more people switch to streaming data/TV, there will be more competition from internet providers and demand from consumers. Prices don't go up on this stuff, prices go down over time. Which means as time goes on, you'll get more data for less money, as already happens. The remaining providers screwing people with data caps and overage charges will be pushed out. It's not going to happen overnight, of course. But it's coming.
> 
> Eventually, internet will be a utility totally unbundled from TV/content. At least in it's current form. Regulation and competition are going to rapidly resolve this. I bet within the next 2 - 5 years you won't see data caps anymore on anything but super budget offerings. Even my high speed wireless 4G internet has no data cap (Ubifi). My cell has no data cap (unheard of years ago). And isn't this part of the 5G plan? To eliminate hard wired internet to homes, provide all the content you want, etc wirelessly. Technology is putting data caps and archaic cable boxes to rest, and it's going to happen fast. We won't get content the same way in the near future, that's for sure.


I hope you're right but I'm not quite as optimistic as you are. Data caps, per se, may go away but consumers will, on average, simply pay for more access. The way that you're paying more to be on AT&T Fiber's fastest, most expensive tier, which offers unlimited data as a perk. Or the way that Comcast subs can pay an extra $50/mo to eliminate their cap. Or the way wireless carriers charge more for their "Unlimited" plans (which sometimes still throttle speeds after a certain point, or restrict video to SD resolution, etc.).

As more and more video leaves broadband providers' own in-house cable TV services (which of course do not count against a cap) and switch to various OTT video services, you'll see broadband providers making more money on their broadband service one way or another. Maybe it's by having data caps and charging for overages or a fee to waive the cap. Or maybe it's by eliminating the cap if you subscribe to additional services besides just broadband. Or maybe it's by eliminating caps for everyone but also raising prices for all broadband plans across the board.

The only way to really keep the overall cost of broadband service in check is through competition or regulation. And yes, competition will increase in the coming years, which is a good thing. We'll see how much impact it has on prices.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BNBTivo said:


> Eventually, internet will be a utility totally unbundled from TV/content.


Not sure if internet will ever be a utility (or if I even want that). But I do believe that, eventually, the only providers of subscription video entertainment (i.e. "TV") will be those companies that actually OWN content sources. (The exception to this is likely to be DISH, which will eventually be the sole major provider of satellite TV service after AT&T eventually sells their DirecTV operation to them.)

By 2025, with the exception of DISH (or whoever's running the lone DBS service by then), I'm not sure if there will be ANY noteworthy MVPDs other than those who are actually *content owners*. The nation's largest cable TV provider, Comcast, who owns NBCUniversal, will still be in the game. And at some point after they launch their OTT NBCU SVOD app nationwide next year, I think they'll decide to also distribute their Xfinity TV cable bundle service the same way (maybe even in the same app) -- available to anyone with a broadband connection. Why restrict themselves to just their own network footprint? It's not a technical matter -- they could flip a switch and do it today. It's just a business decision, and might require some tweaks to their existing contracts with various cable networks, but that's very do-able when you're Comcast. Heck, we might even see Comcast's little X1 streaming box (the Xi6 model) sold at major retail outlets as a competitor to Roku, Apple TV and Fire TV. The X1 box won't be the only way to access their streaming TV services but Comcast will position it as the best way. (You'll still be able to use their app on Roku and other platforms instead.)

The other current traditional pay TV operator who will still be in the game is AT&T, who is a major content owner too, thanks to their acquisition of WarnerMedia (HBO, Turner, CNN, WB movie and TV studios). All signs are pointing toward a launch around August of a new "AT&T TV" service that will be a hybrid product, having some features typically associated with a traditional operator-provisioned cable TV service and some features typically associated with OTT live-streaming cable TV. They'll market it aggressively to their own AT&T Internet/Fiber home broadband customers (with a bundle discount and waived data cap) but also offer it to anyone nationwide as an OTT "bring-your-own-broadband" option. They're also going to launch a new SVOD, tentatively called HBO Max, that offers all of their own WarnerMedia content. HBO Max will automatically be bundled in as part of the channel packages sold through the AT&T TV app/service. And AT&T says that eventually, they'll offer the option to subscribe to those optional channel packages inside the HBO Max app too.

But Charter? Verizon? Cox? Altice? Frontier? CableOne? RCN? Bob's Hometown Cable TV? It increasingly doesn't make sense for them to operate their own cable TV services. Outside of Charter, they don't have a whole lot of scale when negotiating carriage rates. And none of them have any skin in the content game; they're just acting as low-margin middlemen to package and deliver other companies' content. When it comes to whether or not Charter customers take cable TV service, Charter's CEO said, "I'm sort of indifferent." _*Such subscriptions aren't even a "material driver" of Charter's business now.*_ And keep in mind that Charter (by law) can't even enforce data caps right now! And yet the CEO still doesn't really care if you just use Hulu with Live TV instead of his own Spectrum TV! Charter, BTW, has 16 million TV subs, making them the third largest MVPD behind AT&T and Comcast. If that's the situation at #3, what's the situation with everyone smaller than them?

If anything, what you'll see all those operators do is partner with one or more OTT live cable TV services. They'll get a wholesale rate on the subscription cost and will resell those services to their broadband subs and take a little cut. Subscribers will get the convenience of unified billing and some kind of perk, maybe a bundle discount or maybe having that TV service's data zero-rated against their data cap. (Or maybe the operator just waives your data cap if you also subscribe to their partner TV service.)

Outsourcing low-margin, high-headache cable TV service to established national content-owner players who specialize in that stuff will simply emerge as the most logical thing for broadband operators to do. Why should a cable operator try to transition from QAM TV to managed IPTV when the whole cable TV industry is in secular decline anyhow? Just buddy up with a service like YouTube TV (as Verizon is starting to do) and be done with the whole mess. They'd much rather focus on their high-margin broadband business. The only reason they'd even want to offer TV is to make their customers happier and stickier (and maybe technically coordinate with a designated video partner to better manage network traffic, such as by implementing multicast when it make sense).

In the end, it will just be AT&T and Comcast standing in the live cable TV arena, plus whatever content-owner SVODs such as Hulu (and Amazon? and Apple? and CBS?) that wish to also distribute live cable channels through their SVOD apps. YouTube TV might stick around for the long-haul if Google can get it to profitability and doesn't get bored with it. Sony's PS Vue and Fubo TV will both die (both too small, neither are significant content owners), with their customer bases (or at least their customer contact lists) getting absorbed into a surviving competitor.

The landscape in the cable TV world is very rapidly shifting.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

BNBTivo said:


> Someone needing gigabit and Atmos is in a very small minority. For you, clearly you need a ton of devices. For the majority, it's unnecessary. That was the point I was trying to make. And I'm really not sure what you need gigabit for on a streaming device, but if you are using it, cool.


No, I do not "need a ton of devices." (TBH, none of this has to do with need but rather preference.) I do, however, want the capability to watch my preferred content with the best available audio and video quality, within the limits of practicality. This includes being able to select the Dolby Atmos and Dolby Vision encodes whenever available. And my point was to signal that no one device provides all the bells and whistles, but rather each one has its shortcomings or trade-offs.

As for the gigabit port on the Nvidia Shield, there are many users (although I am not among them) who find it useful for streaming UHD content from their media server. The Shield also has the snappiest UI and offers the most customization of any mass-market streamer.

As much as I am enjoying the Roku Ultra thus far, I doubt that I will ever use it for anything other than the Xfinity Stream and HBO Go (thru Xfinity) apps. For almost everything else, I will use either the Shield or, on my other TV, the Amazon Fire TV 4K. Ironically, I could stream everything (other than XoD) from just my Sony XBR-65Z9D, but I have no use for "smart" features in a display. And don't even get me started on the horrific performance of the TiVo Roamio for streaming.

Of course, if you are not an A/V enthusiast, none of these capabilites may concern you; but most TCF members are much more into A/V than your average TV viewer. I myself would much rather do all of my streaming from a single source device, but that day is yet to come.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> But Charter? Verizon? Cox? Altice? Frontier? CableOne? RCN? Bob's Hometown Cable TV? It increasingly doesn't make sense for them to operate their own cable TV services. Outside of Charter, they don't have a whole lot of scale when negotiating carriage rates. And none of them have any skin in the content game; they're just acting as low-margin middlemen to package and deliver other companies' content.


To wit: As Cord Cutting Grows One More Cable TV Company Is Shutting Down Its TV Service - Cord Cutters News


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> To wit: As Cord Cutting Grows One More Cable TV Company Is Shutting Down Its TV Service - Cord Cutters News


Aren't these the same small cable companies that TiVo is counting on? Sounds like more bad news.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> Aren't these the same small cable companies that TiVo is counting on? Sounds like more bad news.


Yup, it is. Well, the Montana cableco in the linked story is very small and TiVo has cable partners that are significantly bigger.

But, yeah, TiVo is aiming to partner up with any of those cable and/or IPTV providers in the under-1 million subscriber range ("tier 2 and tier 3 providers"). So TiVo is competing against others like Evolution Digital, Espial, etc. who aim to make it easier for operators to continue deploying their own TV services as they try to keep up with technology and consumers' increasing expectations.

Meanwhile, many of those operators are starting to whisper "Why stick with this lousy TV business that we hardly make any money on? Let's just focus on high-margin broadband and let our customers buy their own TV services over our connection."

When you add in the fact that cablecos feel like they have to transition their TV systems from QAM to IPTV to remain relevant and keep up with where technology is going (4K, HDR, TV anywhere on any device, targeted advertising, etc.) -- and making that transition involves a significant new investment in their platform -- you can see why we're at a potential inflection point where we start seeing a lot of tier 2/3 operators like this tiny MSO in Montana just ditch cable TV service entirely. (Actuallly, we've even seen one tier 1 operator -- CenturyLink -- throw in the towel on TV when they deprecated their own Prism TV product awhile back and just started reselling DirecTV satellite instead.)

For more on this developing trend, check out the latter part of this article: 3 Rivers Cuts the TV Cord | Light Reading

I hate to be the Debbie Downer of TCF but I just don't see a way forward for TiVo beyond simply licensing their patents, features/UI elements, and program guide data/metadata to bigger industry players. I think it's the consensus view among the regulars here at TCF that TiVo doesn't have much of a future in the retail/consumer arena, so the company's hopes are pinned on serving MSO partners. But I just don't see that business lasting for them long-term either because those MSOs will eventually all just end up reselling national OTT TV services, like AT&T TV, Xfinity TV, YouTube TV, Hulu with Live TV, etc. The economics and industry trends are all aligned against TiVo.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> Yup, it is. Well, the Montana cableco in the linked story is very small and TiVo has cable partners that are significantly bigger.
> 
> But, yeah, TiVo is aiming to partner up with any of those cable and/or IPTV providers in the under-1 million subscriber range ("tier 2 and tier 3 providers"). So TiVo is competing against others like Evolution Digital, Espial, etc. who aim to make it easier for operators to continue deploying their own TV services as they try to keep up with technology and consumers' increasing expectations.
> 
> ...


That "snapshot of examples indicative of the trend" in that article looks to validate your opinion pretty well. Soon we will have a broadband connection from one place and be able to get our TV/video of choice wherever we want. Everything will be headed for the cloud. Access it anywhere from any device anytime.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

I presume Tivo could create a IPTV DVR?

My mother-in-law in Tokyo has had cost effective Hikari IPTV along with NTT Flets 100Mbps ipv6 internet service since 2009. The little one tuner yasui (cheap) rental STB they provided then has a USB 2.0 port which I connected up to a 500GB USB HDD creating a simple DVR.

Someday when Comcast forces me to go IPTV, I'd much prefer to purchase a Tivo IPTV DVR then anything Comcast would rent me. And I prefer to keep my recorded content on an HDD or SSD versus the cloud. FWIW, I do not use Comcast internet; only Comcast TV. My ISP has no data caps.

If I could cut the cord, I would. But Mrs K and I watch almost all Golden State Warrior and San Francisco Giants games on Comcast. And guess who owns the Warriors and Giants sports TV cable only network? The monopoly called Comcast.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> That "snapshot of examples indicative of the trend" in that article looks to validate your opinion pretty well. Soon we will have a broadband connection from one place and be able to get our TV/video of choice wherever we want. Everything will be headed for the cloud. Access it anywhere from any device anytime.


We are already there. It's just a matter of time to get everyone switched over. Cloud services already provide a better experience than Tivo and cable companies for a fraction of the price. Typical commercial laden TV is a thing of the past. It'll be simply news and live sports. That can be had for $20 for a premium experience, or free OTA.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

kokishin said:


> I presume Tivo could create a IPTV DVR?
> 
> My mother-in-law in Tokyo has had cost effective Hikari IPTV along with NTT Flets 100Mbps internet service since 2009. The little one tuner yasui (cheap) rental STB they provided then has a USB 2.0 port which I connected up to a 500GB USB HDD creating a simple DVR.
> 
> ...


I find it unlikely HDD dvrs will last. It's just not going in that direction anymore. That's not  necessarily a good thing. The content providers want you watching commercials. They'll get their way as we switch to IPTV and cloud. Of course, it'll be relegated to the rare live TV that we will still be watching. It seems a lot more commercial free TV is the way of the future which is nice. You'll just pay for the privilege


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

BNBTivo said:


> As for not counting against the cap, a lot of that will have to do with legislation over the coming years. A change in the administration and we get net neutrality, that'll make a big difference. Streaming TV is the future. It's like trying to argue that you can't imagine digital music overtaking CD's. Uncapped is coming. You can already get toast.net anywhere ATT Fiber is available, cheap, uncapped fiber. Google has their own fiber offerings expanding. And as more and more people are killing the 1TB caps, it's just going to get more and more. It really is just a matter of time before cable boxes are irrelevant and we laugh about them like a VCR.


You're conflating multiple things. What does net neutrality have to do with uncapped?

Plus, until ALL services have very long/very obvious/unlimited times for certain shows (which I realize will never happen), AND let you watch faster than realtime (people do it with podcasts, I do it with podcasts & quickmode and VLC), the experience will not be better than having a DVR locally.. I say this who IS using streaming a lot despite the experience being WORSE in some ways.. it's better in that I get NO commercials and not ads over the show (except they still have the stupid bug).


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

mschnebly said:


> ...Soon we will have a broadband connection from one place and be able to get our TV/video of choice wherever we want. Everything will be headed for the cloud. Access it anywhere from any device anytime.


* TiVo Service*
At the core of our Next-Gen Platform is cloud-based TiVo Service, which allows for simple integration, flexible deployments and scalability. TiVo Service powers the entire user experience and enables a variety of features, including content discovery, search, recommendations and personalization as well as IPTV capabilities. It also provides client software, provisioning and service management functions, and integration with operators' back-office and third-party systems.








*Benefits*

Launch an engaging, superior pay-TV experience: Reduce churn, drive new revenue, build loyalty and provide more value to viewers. 

Transition to IPTV on your own terms: Deploy all-QAM, all-IPTV or anything in-between using simple migration paths. 

Cutting-edge experiences across devices: Meet demand for device- and OS-agnostic services and extend engagement beyond the TV. 

Future-proof with cloud-based TiVo Service: Gain rapid agility, scalability and feature velocity to stay ahead of the competition.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

CloudAtlas said:


> * TiVo Service*
> At the core of our Next-Gen Platform is cloud-based TiVo Service, which allows for simple integration, flexible deployments and scalability. TiVo Service powers the entire user experience and enables a variety of features, including content discovery, search, recommendations and personalization as well as IPTV capabilities. It also provides client software, provisioning and service management functions, and integration with operators' back-office and third-party systems.
> View attachment 41486
> 
> ...


This sure seems to make it clear that this will not be a retail company soon. No more local box with drives.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

mattack said:


> You're conflating multiple things. What does net neutrality have to do with uncapped?
> 
> Plus, until ALL services have very long/very obvious/unlimited times for certain shows (which I realize will never happen), AND let you watch faster than realtime (people do it with podcasts, I do it with podcasts & quickmode and VLC), the experience will not be better than having a DVR locally.. I say this who IS using streaming a lot despite the experience being WORSE in some ways.. it's better in that I get NO commercials and not ads over the show (except they still have the stupid bug).


What does net neutrality have to do with uncapped? Everything.

As companies switch to IPTV, they won't be allowed to differentiate between their service and others when counting against the cap. So Comcast couldn't supply their TV service to you via IPTV and not count against the cap. They'll be forced to remove the cap in order to provide TV services.

None of the features above that you like requires a local dvr. YouTube already has quick mode. These are all things that can be easily handled via cloud service and most likely will as they mature. As I've said before, local DVR is still a viable solution at the moment. But it's going away for sure and probably relatively soon. It can't compete with cloud.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

CloudAtlas said:


> * TiVo Service*
> At the core of our Next-Gen Platform is cloud-based TiVo Service, which allows for simple integration, flexible deployments and scalability. TiVo Service powers the entire user experience and enables a variety of features, including content discovery, search, recommendations and personalization as well as IPTV capabilities. It also provides client software, provisioning and service management functions, and integration with operators' back-office and third-party systems.
> View attachment 41486
> 
> ...


Well there ya go! Tivo clearly sees where the future is. It's not a bad time to sell off lifetime tivo equipment before its worthless. I just pulled in $2100 for all my stuff. Or about 3 1/2 years worth of YTTV. Expensive equipment is a thing of the past. And dang, imagine what all that equipment cost me new!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BNBTivo said:


> What does net neutrality have to do with uncapped? Everything.
> 
> As companies switch to IPTV, they won't be allowed to differentiate between their service and others when counting against the cap. So Comcast couldn't supply their TV service to you via IPTV and not count against the cap. They'll be forced to remove the cap in order to provide TV services.
> 
> None of the features above that you like requires a local dvr. YouTube already has quick mode. These are all things that can be easily handled via cloud service and most likely will as they mature. As I've said before, local DVR is still a viable solution at the moment. But it's going away for sure and probably relatively soon. It can't compete with cloud.


I don't see where net neutrality does that at all. We had it and they still allowed their own data to be free. Bundling of services would not be disallowed.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BNBTivo said:


> Well there ya go! Tivo clearly sees where the future is. It's not a bad time to sell off lifetime tivo equipment before its worthless. I just pulled in $2100 for all my stuff. Or about 3 1/2 years worth of YTTV. Expensive equipment is a thing of the past. And dang, imagine what all that equipment cost me new!


That's one way to do it and look at it. Another is, how many years of use and enjoyment still can be gotten.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> That's one way to do it and look at it. Another is, how many years of use and enjoyment still can be gotten.


For us? None. Once Comcast/Tivo dumped OnDemand, the Tivo became basically a piece of junk. I don't want multiple devices and all that nonsense, that was the draw of the Tivo, a single device. Once they couldn't provide that, I'd say it was a worthless DVR, but apparently all the equipment was worth over $2k... so, yeah, cool. We did get enjoyment out of it until the failure of Comcast/Tivo to continue providing the service they sold me. So it wasn't a loss or anything. And now we have a couple thousand extra in the bank and save $150/mo with better service and more content. So overall, big win. Just glad those boxes are still worth something at the moment.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> I don't see where net neutrality does that at all. We had it and they still allowed their own data to be free. Bundling of services would not be disallowed.


That's exactly what net neutrality prevented. ISP's couldn't zero rate their own or preferred services or give bandwidth preferences. That was the entire point of net neutrality. I'm not sure you understand what net neutrality was/is.

This may help: How You'll Know Net Neutrality Is Really Gone

In simpler terms, we get data caps and then zero rating of preferred services. So it's too expensive to switch to other streaming TV services, for example because of the data caps. So yeah, sure, you want Hulu Live TV instead of Comcast TV? Counts against their arbitrary data cap, you blow through the cap (they know you will) and boom, extra $50/mo for Comcast in overage charges! Or, you can just buy Comcast TV, wink wink. It allows the monopolistic ISP's to screw customers and force them in to their own services.

That said, I probably sound like a huge net neutrality fan. I'm more in the middle. I think the free market is on it's way to solving this issue all by itself and for the benefit of consumers when it comes to home data caps. But that doesn't mean we won't get net neutrality back next time we have a left-leaning administration.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

CloudAtlas said:


> * TiVo Service*
> At the core of our Next-Gen Platform is cloud-based TiVo Service, which allows for simple integration, flexible deployments and scalability. TiVo Service powers the entire user experience and enables a variety of features, including content discovery, search, recommendations and personalization as well as IPTV capabilities. It also provides client software, provisioning and service management functions, and integration with operators' back-office and third-party systems.
> View attachment 41486
> 
> ...


I'd just point out to anyone who doesn't already know this that TiVo's Next-Gen Platform (IP/cloud-based) can only be implemented in partnership with a given TV/broadband operator. There's no way to implement this platform in retail TiVo devices that one could buy individually and then use with the TV operator of your choice.

I'd also point out that TiVo is quickly going to find this Next-Gen Platform running up against BIG competitors like Google's YouTube TV, the about-to-launch AT&T TV, Disney's Hulu with Live TV, and eventually probably even Xfinity TV*. Those streaming OTT TV players will aim to strike redistribution agreements with broadband operators to sell their TV services to their broadband customers, streaming over those operators' own networks. "Sure you could spend money to upgrade to managed IPTV and use TiVo's Next-Gen Platform. But you'd still have the cost and headaches of negotiating those cable network carriage contracts, managing set-top boxes, providing customer service and technical support. Who needs it? Just sell our service and leave all that hard work to us! We'll give you a little cut of the subscription fees. We just ask that you sweeten the deal for your customers who bundle our service with your broadband by not counting our streaming against their data cap (if you have one)."

*Yes, I know that right now Xfinity TV is only distributed inside Comcast's own footprint, to folks who have an actual Comcast line running into their homes. But the shifting economics of the cable TV industry will force them to make Xfinity TV available to anyone, anywhere with an internet connection. Keep in mind that next year, Comcast/NBCU is going to launch their own nationwide OTT Hulu-competitor, an SVOD service featuring classic shows and movies they own (e.g. The Office) plus new original series. (I'm sure this service will also be home to new movies from Universal when their output deal expires with HBO at the end of 2022.) Comcast has already indicated that they mainly see this service as a complement to the cable TV bundle, with some of the content (e.g. next-day access to shows from the NBC family of channels) inside the SVOD only accessible if you unlock it with a cable authentication log-in. But Comcast would be crazy not to also allow customers to actually pay for and subscribe to Xfinity TV cable channel bundles inside the app too, and integrate it all together, as Hulu does with their Live TV add-on.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BNBTivo said:


> That's exactly what net neutrality prevented. ISP's couldn't zero rate their own or preferred services or give bandwidth preferences. That was the entire point of net neutrality. I'm not sure you understand what net neutrality was/is.
> 
> This may help: How You'll Know Net Neutrality Is Really Gone
> 
> ...


We had net neutrality and they zeroed their own content. They did the same with phone services. Nothing ever prevents you from giving something away. Net neutrality was more about access and not making third party deals. It wasn't about deals with the consumer but deals company to company.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Unless Antenna TV goes away Tivo will survive. Their are more than 15 million Antenna TV users. 

A little marketing in this direction would help.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

schatham said:


> Unless Antenna TV goes away Tivo will survive. Their are more than 15 million Antenna TV users.
> 
> A little marketing in this direction would help.


Yes, TiVo makes a very nice DVR for OTA antenna users. But the number of free OTA TV users who want to pay for DVR hardware/service probably isn't all that high. And TiVo is also battling against Tablo, HDHomeRun (which optionally works with both Plex and Channels DVR), DISH (Sling TV/AirTV), and Amazon (!) in the OTA DVR space. So it's a little crowded.

I expect it to become a bit more crowded going forward as AT&T and maybe others follow in the footsteps of DISH/Sling TV by offering free OTA DVR service integrated into their streaming cable TV service if you subscribe to it.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Yes, TiVo makes a very nice DVR for OTA antenna users. But the number of free OTA TV users who want to pay for DVR hardware/service probably isn't all that high. And TiVo is also battling against Tablo, HDHomeRun (which optionally works with both Plex and Channels DVR), DISH (Sling TV/AirTV), and Amazon (!) in the OTA DVR space. So it's a little crowded.
> 
> I expect it to become a bit more crowded going forward as AT&T and maybe others follow in the footsteps of DISH/Sling TV by offering free OTA DVR service integrated into their streaming cable TV service if you subscribe to it.


And antenna TV is going to be on its way out as well. It's not a long term strategy.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BNBTivo said:


> And antenna TV *is going to be *on its way out as well. It's not a long term strategy.


But, it's not happening tomorrow--it's evolutionary, not cataclysmic. The question is, can a company like TiVo evolve as well, or will it fail or, just call it a day and roll over.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

kokishin said:


> I presume Tivo could create a IPTV DVR?


Sure if the major players like Comcast let them. But Tivo won't say a damn word about it, so the consensus is that Tivo IPTV is a non-starter and as Nash said basically just leaves them milking patents.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> But, it's not happening tomorrow--it's evolutionary, not cataclysmic. The question is, can a company like TiVo evolve as well, or will it fail or, just call it a day and roll over.


That's why I wrote "not a long term strategy" - of course it won't happen overnight. I'm not sure how Tivo can or will evolve in to the future. It's certainly not a company I would hold stock in. Their products are great for right now, but technology is replacing Tivo rapidly.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> I'd just point out to anyone who doesn't already know this that TiVo's Next-Gen Platform (IP/cloud-based) can only be implemented in partnership with a given TV/broadband operator. There's no way to implement this platform in retail TiVo devices that one could buy individually and then use with the TV operator of your choice.
> 
> I'd also point out that TiVo is quickly going to find this Next-Gen Platform running up against BIG competitors like Google's YouTube TV, the about-to-launch AT&T TV, Disney's Hulu with Live TV, and eventually probably even Xfinity TV*. Those streaming OTT TV players will aim to strike redistribution agreements with broadband operators to sell their TV services to their broadband customers, streaming over those operators' own networks. "Sure you could spend money to upgrade to managed IPTV and use TiVo's Next-Gen Platform. But you'd still have the cost and headaches of negotiating those cable network carriage contracts, managing set-top boxes, providing customer service and technical support. Who needs it? Just sell our service and leave all that hard work to us! We'll give you a little cut of the subscription fees. We just ask that you sweeten the deal for your customers who bundle our service with your broadband by not counting our streaming against their data cap (if you have one)."
> 
> *Yes, I know that right now Xfinity TV is only distributed inside Comcast's own footprint, to folks who have an actual Comcast line running into their homes. But the shifting economics of the cable TV industry will force them to make Xfinity TV available to anyone, anywhere with an internet connection. Keep in mind that next year, Comcast/NBCU is going to launch their own nationwide OTT Hulu-competitor, an SVOD service featuring classic shows and movies they own (e.g. The Office) plus new original series. (I'm sure this service will also be home to new movies from Universal when their output deal expires with HBO at the end of 2022.) Comcast has already indicated that they mainly see this service as a complement to the cable TV bundle, with some of the content (e.g. next-day access to shows from the NBC family of channels) inside the SVOD only accessible if you unlock it with a cable authentication log-in. But Comcast would be crazy not to also allow customers to actually pay for and subscribe to Xfinity TV cable channel bundles inside the app too, and integrate it all together, as Hulu does with their Live TV add-on.


Excellent post.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

slowbiscuit said:


> Sure if the major players like Comcast let them. But Tivo won't say a damn word about it, so the consensus is that Tivo IPTV is a non-starter and as Nash said basically just leaves them milking patents.


TiVo already has an IPTV DVR. The actual set-top box uses the Hydra UI and has an updated, more compact TiVo peanut remote. You can read about it here:
Next-Gen Platform | TiVo










BUT (and this is a big but)... this IPTV DVR can only be used when the pay TV operator uses TiVo's overall system, which includes provisioning software that they deploy on their own servers. If you took one of these IPTV TiVo boxes and tried to use it with, let's say AT&T's Uverse TV (which is an IPTV provider that doesn't license TiVo's overall IPTV system), it wouldn't work. At all.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Which doesn't count, really. You know I was talking about retail.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> TiVo already has an IPTV DVR. The actual set-top box uses the Hydra UI and has an updated, more compact TiVo peanut remote. You can read about it here:
> Next-Gen Platform | TiVo
> 
> View attachment 41511
> ...


It really is smart of Tivo to work with cable companies this way. I think they would be well served completely dumping the retail side, well, other than keeping a solid OTA product with excellent streaming app support.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BNBTivo said:


> It really is smart of Tivo to work with cable companies this way. I think they would be well served completely dumping the retail side, well, other than keeping a solid OTA product with excellent streaming app support.


The retail side serves as a lower-risk way to develop and beta test new concepts, such as the Hydra UI, before systemwide deployments on their partners' systems. This is why you're not going to see TiVo sink resources into much of anything on the B2C retail side that can't be repurposed for, or somehow serve, their B2B partner products.

The symbiotic relationship does help retail users too, though. We wouldn't be seeing those upcoming TiVo apps for Apple TV, Fire TV, Roku and Android TV if TiVo didn't need to offer them to their pay TV partners as part of their overall suite of solutions.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> *The retail side serves as a lower-risk way to develop and beta test new concepts, such as the Hydra UI, before systemwide deployments on their partners' systems.* This is why you're not going to see TiVo sink resources into much of anything on the B2C retail side that can't be repurposed for, or somehow serve, their B2B partner products.
> 
> The symbiotic relationship does help retail users too, though. We wouldn't be seeing those upcoming TiVo apps for Apple TV, Fire TV, Roku and Android TV if TiVo didn't need to offer them to their pay TV partners as part of their overall suite of solutions.


I've seen people say that here often before--but has TiVo actually been doing that? In the case of Hydra, I believe that it went to the cableco market first (wasn't it a Spain cableco?).


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> I've seen people say that here often before--but has TiVo actually been doing that? In the case of Hydra, I believe that it went to the cableco market first (wasn't it a Spain cableco?).


Yeah, they actually did first deploy Hydra -- an early version of it -- on TiVo boxes used with a Spanish cable partner. Then they kept developing it and deployed it in the US first on retail boxes. And then based on the feedback there, came up with what they're now deploying much more broadly on US cable/IPTV partner boxes. That one instance of putting some new out first on a single (foreign) cable partner is all that I'm aware of, although there might be others.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

slowbiscuit said:


> Sure if the major players like Comcast let them. But Tivo won't say a damn word about it, so the consensus is that Tivo IPTV is a non-starter


The consensus of speculation & wild guesses based on zero insider knowledge is that it's a non-starter.

It's in Comcast's best interest to support small players like TiVO (and others) to avoid looking like the big bad monopolies that they are. Talk of regulating or even breaking up large tech companies from Facebook, Amazon, Google, to Apple have become national news.

And as soon as 2020 the FCC could have a new chairman who actually cares about consumers and actually does his job.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

Hi, so I got a Roku Premier+ today. When the Xfinity Stream App Beta comes up, after it loads and says Initializing, it gets an error. It says SORRY, TRY AGAIN LATER...LOL. No error code. Anyone? Thanks.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

It never connects?

I just set up 4 Ultras this week. 3 Wireless and 1 over a MoCA network...never an error.

In Houston.

-KP


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

kpeters59 said:


> It never connects?
> 
> I just set up 4 Ultras this week. 3 Wireless and 1 over a MoCA network...never an error.
> 
> ...


And SO? It does not take rocket science to just install an app and click on it.

IDK, I was quite specific in what it did, which was not much. Saying Initializing and then an error screen, try again (no code)...


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Do other streaming services operate as expected?

-KP


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

samccfl99 said:


> Hi, so I got a Roku Premier+ today. When the Xfinity Stream App Beta comes up, after it loads and says Initializing, it gets an error. It says SORRY, TRY AGAIN LATER...LOL. No error code. Anyone? Thanks.


I suppose that could have been due a temporary communications glitch with the local Comcast server. If so, try again today to see if it has been resolved.

If not, then I would next try deleting the app and reloading it on the assumption that something was corrupted in the software.

FWIW, I have not experienced any glitches yet loading or using the Xfinity Stream app on my Roku Ultra.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

I thought people said that HBO GO is not supported by Comcast? On the Roku P+, I searched by voice (only TE3 here) and I found something on HBO and it gave me the options and I chose HBO GO and it took me to the app. Xfinity was in the list and I entered the code and signed on in a browser and voila, HBO. 

The Xfinity Beta is weird (or the Roku). I was just playing around and decided to try for a non-cable show, so I said "Supernatural" and a whole list came out. I chose an episode and it took me out of the app and put me in the CW app and I chose an episode and it played. Is that the way the Roku works? I guess there is no way to Save programs on the Roku like the old XOD had a Saved Program folder in it. I found this out because I paused something and then went back to Tivo and when I came back, the Roku was back to the main menu...LOL

Not Progress! Well there are some free movies on the Roku channel that might be worth watching...someday...LOL. Also, That tiny "box" sure gets hot!


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

samccfl99 said:


> I thought people said that HBO GO is not supported by Comcast?


On the TiVo. It works on some other devices, as you found. (It works on my Apple TV. But Comcast won't authorize the Starz app there -- I haven't tried the Roku yet.)


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

samccfl99 said:


> I thought people said that HBO GO is not supported by Comcast? On the Roku P+, I searched by voice (only TE3 here) and I found something on HBO and it gave me the options and I chose HBO GO and it took me to the app. Xfinity was in the list and I entered the code and signed on in a browser and voila, HBO.
> 
> The Xfinity Beta is weird (or the Roku). I was just playing around and decided to try for a non-cable show, so I said "Supernatural" and a whole list came out. I chose an episode and it took me out of the app and put me in the CW app and I chose an episode and it played. Is that the way the Roku works? I guess there is no way to Save programs on the Roku like the old XOD had a Saved Program folder in it. I found this out because I paused something and then went back to Tivo and when I came back, the Roku was back to the main menu...LOL
> 
> Not Progress! Well there are some free movies on the Roku channel that might be worth watching...someday...LOL. Also, That tiny "box" sure gets hot!


HBO GO on Roku has always worked, but data will count if you have a limit.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

samccfl99 said:


> chose an episode and it took me out of the app and put me in the CW app and I chose an episode and it played.


Wait...so does that mean that _some_ of the streaming might go _ against_ your Data Cap?

-KP


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

kpeters59 said:


> Wait...so does that mean that _some_ of the streaming might go _ against_ your Data Cap?
> 
> -KP


What's a Data Cap??? LOL

I live alone and last month I used 60gb. Says I have a limit of 1TB...

*Monthly Data Usage*
1024GB remaining of 1024GB monthly plan (July 01 - July 31).
_Data used in the last 24 hours may not be displayed_

And I have used my devices all month so far...LOL. I think they get confused. For one, I live in a Condo and Basic is included and there are no real caps for contracts like that, and 2nd, I have my own Zoom modem and Comcast does not seem to be able to keep track of certain things like they do their gateways, so some info is not displayed on my account.

What does this have to do with the app???


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

It's just me and sometimes my Daughter and we've used up all our 'grace periods' on Comcast's 1tb cap and even paid the extra a few times...

-KP


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

schatham said:


> HBO GO on Roku has always worked, but data will count if you have a limit.


The only time I ever tried the HBO app was on my phone and Xfinity was never there, but I am not sure if that was HBO Now or GO. NOW definitely is different, I think it needs a real HBO subscription. Whatever.

Also I do not know why anyone would use the app on the Tivo if one has HBO!!! LOL


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

samccfl99 said:


> I have my own Zoom modem and Comcast does not seem to be able to keep track of certain things like they do their gateways, so some info is not displayed on my account.


That doesn't appear to be the case in Houston...they seem to know every Mb and it seems like a few more on my Personally Owned Modem.

-KP


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

kpeters59 said:


> It's just me and sometimes my Daughter and we've used up all our 'grace periods' on Comcast's 1tb cap and even paid the extra a few times...
> 
> -KP


I will never understand how so much data is used. I guess you stream a lot...


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

samccfl99 said:


> What does this have to do with the app???


This is about XOD Alternatives. So, their effect on Data Caps seems relevant, to me...

-KP


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

kpeters59 said:


> That doesn't appear to be the case in Houston...they seem to know every Mb and it seems like a few more on my Personally Owned Modem.
> 
> -KP


I guess I was talking about the message in my account, but it was only the message thats says it does not know my wifi network name and pw...LOL


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

kpeters59 said:


> This is about XOD Alternatives. So, their effect on Data Caps seems relevant, to me...
> 
> -KP


Oh, it's YOU! I think I had you blocked and unblocked you a few days ago to see a post of yours. Now I know why you were blocked...sheesh...Blocked again. You seem to have some good info, but you are too sarcastic for me!!!


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Your loss...

-KP


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

kpeters59 said:


> Wait...so does that mean that _some_ of the streaming might go _ against_ your Data Cap?
> 
> -KP


I think if Xfinity sent you there your good, it seems built together somehow. What happens if you use the back arrow, does it go back to Xfinity menu?


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## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

kpeters59 said:


> Wait...so does that mean that _some_ of the streaming might go _ against_ your Data Cap?
> 
> -KP


Just about any data that goes through the modem is counted.

What counts towards my data plan?


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

It's been said that if the content originates from Comcast, and not the Internet at large, that the Data does _not_ go against the cap...

I've never seen any verification of that, though.

-KP


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

OnDemand via the roku app doesn’t count because it goes through different routing.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Source?

-KP


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

kpeters59 said:


> Source?
> 
> -KP


Xfinity Stream App on Xfinity TV Partner Devices FAQs


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

That makes perfect sense--just as anything you used to watch on the old XoD app on the TiVo did not count towards the data cap.

Note, however, that HBO GO streaming, even when accessed via a Comcast subscription, is subject to the data cap.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

chiguy50 said:


> nything you used to watch on the old XoD app on the TiVo did not count towards the data cap.


That came in over QAM, so didn't effect the DOCSIS Data.

-KP


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

smark said:


> Xfinity Stream App on Xfinity TV Partner Devices FAQs


I'm not sure this clears up my question completely:

_Does streaming using the Xfinity Stream app on a Partner Device count against my Internet data usage?
No. The goal of using the app on your Partner Device is to give you more options outside of our rented TV Boxes to access your full TV service within your home. The service delivered through the Xfinity Stream app is not an Internet service, so our data usage plans don't apply.

However, video services that are delivered over the Internet, like TV Everywhere content accessed via the Xfinity Stream app and web portal or content from NBC.com or the NBC and NBC Sports apps, are treated exactly the same way as any other Internet-delivered services like Netflix, Hulu, or Amazon, and are subject to any data usage plans that might apply._

-KP


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

kpeters59 said:


> I'm not sure this clears up my question completely:
> 
> _Does streaming using the Xfinity Stream app on a Partner Device count against my Internet data usage?
> No. The goal of using the app on your Partner Device is to give you more options outside of our rented TV Boxes to access your full TV service within your home. The service delivered through the Xfinity Stream app is not an Internet service, so our data usage plans don't apply.
> ...


Yes, this should clear up your question.

When Comcast sends you programming via the Xfinity Stream app on a Partner Device (currently just Roku and Samsung smart TVs, with more devices coming), that is NOT considered "over-the-top" (OTT) data that travels over the open internet and therefore counts against your data cap. Instead, Comcast considers those video streams to be managed IPTV (internet protocol television), the same as if it was being streamed to their own Xi5 or Xi6 boxes. Comcast's own IPTV streams do not count against their data cap.

But everything you stream to every other app, whether it's on Comcast's own boxes or a Partner Device, IS OTT and DOES count against your data cap.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Yeah, but it was stated that he was sent to The CW App.

-KP


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

There's no confusion here - if it plays in the Xfinity app it doesn't count. Everything else does.


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## oldradio99 (Nov 23, 2005)

Just purchased a new 2019 Series 8 TV and the Xfinity Beta app is not supported. 

Seems like Xfinity does not want us using anything but the X1 box


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

On Demand set up.

Edit:
Living room: Tivo box and Roku
Bedroom: Tivo Mini and Roku
Office: Tivo Mini and Roku TV.


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

schatham said:


> On Demand set up.
> 
> Living room: Tivo box and Roku
> Bedroom: Tivo Mini and X1 DVR,
> Office: Tivo Mini and Roku TV.


You originally 'hinted' TiVo (Roamio?) @ the bedroom with the X1 (I assume XG1V4) @ the main w/Mini. What changed your mind? I've the XG1V4 & a Mini(A9300) @ the MAIN DISPLAY and my Roamio + @ the secondary. I'm returning my L3TV later this month and I'm thinking I'm quite happy with this arrangement. The only change I thought I might like is maybe a Mini VOX @ the main vs an A9300 because it would stream 4K. and do 1080P60 I believe that might be easier to upscale to a 2160 display. I've a Roku Ultra for the secondary display also.

@ both locations the devices are run through an AVR.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

WVZR1 said:


> You originally 'hinted' TiVo (Roamio?) @ the bedroom with the X1 (I assume XG1V4) @ the main w/Mini. What changed your mind? I've the XG1V4 & a Mini(A9300) @ the MAIN DISPLAY and my Roamio + @ the secondary. I'm returning my L3TV later this month and I'm thinking I'm quite happy with this arrangement. The only change I thought I might like is maybe a Mini VOX @ the main vs an A9300 because it would stream 4K. and do 1080P60 I believe that might be easier to upscale to a 2160 display. I've a Roku Ultra for the secondary display also.
> 
> @ both locations the devices are run through an AVR.


I started to dislike the X1 and put my main Tivo back in the living room with a Roku. Then today I took the X1 back and now just use Tivo, Mini's and Roku.


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## mazman (Nov 13, 2002)

schatham said:


> I started to dislike the X1 and put my main Tivo back in the living room with a Roku. Then today I took the X1 back and now just use Tivo, Mini's and Roku.


What did you not like about the X1?


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

mazman said:


> What did you not like about the X1?


,,,


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

schatham said:


> I started to dislike the X1 and put my main Tivo back in the living room with a Roku. Then today I took the X1 back and now just use Tivo, Mini's and Roku.


You had the 'newest' X1 with NO CLOCK? They still hand out the older X1 at my Xfinity Store 'unless' you ask specifically for the XG1V4. I use mine sporadically because I knew I'd likely NOT enjoy some of the issues. I didn't experience issues you mention but I didn't attempt to use as an everyday device for 'network' TV. XOD only and some catch up stuff. It will stream 4K stuff that you have to actually switch devices for. Some of the CBS XOD stuff was direct from CBS ALL ACCESS with very little advertising. I believe the XG1V4 actually does likely better up-scaling than the Roamio. It certainkly spends most of the day 'asleep'!!


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

WVZR1 said:


> You had the 'newest' X1 with NO CLOCK? They still hand out the older X1 at my Xfinity Store 'unless' you ask specifically for the XG1V4.


Yes the XG1v4


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

still shows up on my tivos as of yesterday but I admit I didn't try to actually go in it..


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

mattack said:


> still shows up on my tivos as of yesterday but I admit I didn't try to actually go in it..


You'll just get the message that you can't use it.


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## dsc25 (Nov 14, 2002)

So, if I'm reading through everything here correctly, for this TiVo Bolt user whose family used a lot of Xfinity on Demand through the Bolt, the easiest and cheapest solution is to get a Roku and use the Xfinity app there, correct?

The discussion here has been super interesting to read through, but now I'm just looking for the bottom line answer so my family can stop hyperventilating about the future of their TiVo. Thanks all!


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

dsc25 said:


> So, if I'm reading through everything here correctly, for this TiVo Bolt user whose family used a lot of Xfinity on Demand through the Bolt, the easiest and cheapest solution is to get a Roku and use the Xfinity app there, correct?
> 
> The discussion here has been super interesting to read through, but now I'm just looking for the bottom line answer so my family can stop hyperventilating about the future of their TiVo. Thanks all!


The cheapest way to use the Xfinity Stream app is on a computer or mobile device that you already own. If you want the app on your TV, then you will indeed need a Roku streamer.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Well that's not strictly true either given that laptops (and most PCs) can HDMI out to a TV, and you can use a wireless KB/mouse to control etc. But a Roku is definitely the easiest route and not that expensive even for 3-4 TVs.


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## dsc25 (Nov 14, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Well that's not strictly true either given that laptops (and most PCs) can HDMI out to a TV, and you can use a wireless KB/mouse to control etc. But a Roku is definitely the easiest route and not that expensive even for 3-4 TVs.


Perfect - just the info I wanted. Thank you!


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

don't know if this has been covered but you can watch the latest episodes of many shows through the app of the respective channel. 

so, for example, if you miss First 48 you can probably watch it on the AE app. Miss the latest episode of Fargo you can watch it on the FX app. Miss the latest episode of Better Call Saul you can watch it on the AMC app. etc etc You can just have to authenticate through your cable subscription. Some apps aren't able to be authenticated by some cable companies or vice versa.

You just need a streaming box like a Roku or FireTV or AppleTV ...


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

trip1eX said:


> don't know if this has been covered but you can watch the latest episodes of many shows through the app of the respective channel.
> 
> so, for example, if you miss First 48 you can probably watch it on the AE app. Miss the latest episode of Fargo you can watch it on the FX app. Miss the latest episode of Better Call Saul you can watch it on the AMC app. etc etc You can just have to authenticate through your cable subscription. Some apps aren't able to be authenticated by some cable companies or vice versa.
> 
> You just need a streaming box like a Roku or FireTV or AppleTV ...


Yep. The Apple TV has a feature called "single sign-on" that some cable TV operators support. Just enter your cable account user name and password once and it will unlock access to all of the individual channel apps that work with that cable provider (e.g. ESPN, HGTV, ABC, NBC, Fox, A&E, etc.).


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## JimAV (Aug 22, 2013)

Single Sign on needs to be supported by the Cable Company. AppleTV or RoKu isn’t going to be able to support it if the Cable Co doesn’t support it. I’m in MA and Comcast doesn’t support it but FIOS does support single sign on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

JimAV said:


> Single Sign on needs to be supported by the Cable Company. AppleTV or RoKu isn't going to be able to support it if the Cable Co doesn't support it. I'm in MA and Comcast doesn't support it but FIOS does support single sign on.


Yes. Charter Spectrum, Cox, Altice, AT&T TV, DirecTV and DISH support Single Sign-On on Apple TV as well. Here's the full list of providers who do:
TV providers that let you sign in on your iPhone, iPad, or Apple TV

Also, the Xfinity Stream app is now available on Fire TV devices in addition to Roku, Chromecast, and select Samsung and LG smart TVs.
Watch Xfinity Stream App on Amazon Fire TV


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