# Game of Thrones S3E7 05/12/2013 'The Bear and the Maiden Fair'



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Well, well, well...Jaime is the hero of this tale afterall...I'm surprised Brienne was not raped first.

The Arya portion of the story has just become a little absurd.

Excellent nudity this week. Long overdue!

I suspected Orell was in love with Igrit, but I changed my mind when he cut her loose last week. I should have known better. he's just a jerk who loves himself more, that's all.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh, and I suspect the big fire (that Jon Snow knows nothing about) is not a signal for Mance to attack, but a signal that Castle Black is burned down and they can cross without opposition.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

"Yes my sweet girl. My mother taught me."


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

The Tywin and Joffrey scene was fantastic. You could just see Tywin think "screw this" as he walked up the steps to be on the same level.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

OK it took me a bit but realized Orell is Gareth from British "The Office". Jon Snow just needs to get hold of some jello to take him down. 

The bear fight scene was a littly silly wish they would have thought up something better. 

Tywin bullying Joffrey was fun to watch. I actually like Tywin he can be mean to his children but the guy is a great leader and level headed.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

jehma said:


> The Tywin and Joffrey scene was fantastic. You could just see Tywin think "screw this" as he walked up the steps to be on the same level.


And watching the change in Joffrey's demeanor was priceless!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

As the scene opened with Tywin walking up to Joffrey, I realized it was one of the first times we've seen just those two together. Knowing how delicious all the Tywin scenes are, and knowing what a ***** Joffrey is, you knew it was going to be good. There was no doubt Joff would be overwhelmed in the matchup; the only question was how would Tywin play it. And the answer is masterfully. :up:



mwhip said:


> The bear fight scene was a littly silly wish they would have thought up something better.


It's direct from the books. Nonetheless, it played out less enthralling on-screen than it did in the books.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

astrohip said:


> It's direct from the books. Nonetheless, it played out less enthralling on-screen than it did in the books.


Brienne put up a bit more of a fight in the books, managing to hold-off or avoid the bear even with a practice sword. Also, IIRC, in the books her sword was metal but dull, not wooden.

In this episode, she looked like a complete wimp. The bear was not moving very fast, but she still did not seem to be adept at dodging it.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> Excellent nudity this week. Long overdue!


The girl that wasn't covering herself with her hands seemed to have neatly groomed pubic hair. I guess there are lots of very sharp blades in that keep that can be used for shaving, even if their usual use is to cut a bit deeper. But still, I would have thought a merkin would have been in order in that scene.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

did you just spoil where Theon is? if you're a book reader and made a mistake, please put Theon's location is tags. Thanks!


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

The Theon arc is really boring me, but I did enjoy this part of his torture... 

Well, at least right up until the implied penectomy. Poor guy!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> did you just spoil where Theon is? if you're a book reader and made a mistake, please put Theon's location is tags. Thanks!


I thought Theon's location was revealed last week, when he played the guessing game.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> I thought Theon's location was revealed last week, when he played the guessing game.


No, it was not. The torturer said he was lying and continued to pull out the bone in Theon's pinkie. As it stands, we have no clue. We THINK we know it's Bolton's bastard, but that is as far as it goes.

Edit: Thanks for editing your post :up:


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> No, it was not. The torturer said he was lying and continued to pull out the bone in Theon's pinkie. As it stands, we have no clue. We THINK we know it's Bolton's bastard, but that is as far as it goes.


Certainly not "no clue". There have been multiple hints, and then there was a clear reaction last week when Theon guessed Karhold.

Anyway, I do not have any privileged knowledge that allows me to know where Theon is.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm going with the Theon being tortured thread for a while longer, because I assume there is some sort of payoff, but this is almost getting painfully boring (although more painful for Theon I suppose!) 
I'm sure the producers gave Brienne a wooden sword instead of a dull one because it was more visually obvious, also to show that a metal sword was dull Brienne would have to hit the bear and I'm not sure that Gwendoline Christie and Bart the Bear were ever that close


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> I thought Theon's location was revealed last week, when he played the guessing game.


Theon had guessed a location, was told he was right, and then told he was wrong. His real location has yet to be revealed on show.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> Theon had guessed a location, was told he was right, and then told he was wrong. His real location has yet to be revealed on show.


Theon was not told that he was wrong about his guess. His captor said Theon forgot to ask if he was a liar. But the implication was that he was lying about telling Theon if he guessed right, not that Theon guessed wrong. And besides, why would you take what the liar says as the truth, when the more reliable indicator is his reaction -- which was quite pronounced when Theon guessed Karhold.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

jehma said:


> The Tywin and Joffrey scene was fantastic. You could just see Tywin think "screw this" as he walked up the steps to be on the same level.


Add he towered over "Your Grace" Jeffy, to let him know who was boss and didn't need top take his sh*.

I never noticed until I got my real HDTV back that Tywin has scarred eyes.

"Am I supposed to walk up those stairs to the Hand's tower?"

"Have yourself carried." _(You pu*y.)_


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I was convinced that the bear was CGI. I'll bet a lot of what we saw with the bear growling was CGI except for the long shots.

The reveal with Theon was when the bastard blew the horn - the horn that was driving Theon nuts in Winterfell.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I was really looking forward to seeing Casterly Rock in the opening credits. It seems we will need to witness Edmure's wedding first :down:

The Arya twist reminded me of the end of every episode of Gilligan's Island...


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> ...The Arya twist reminded me of the end of every episode of Gilligan's Island...


Oh, yeah! Methinks the Hound will take in Arya as "Little Bird #2" and brush up her fighting skills. He must be hanging around to get back his gold.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I was really looking forward to seeing Casterly Rock in the opening credits. It seems we will need to witness Edmure's wedding first :down:


Remember that Lord Frey has set a dead line for his alliance. Casterly Rock is still Robb's goal but he has to make amends first.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> Remember that Lord Frey has set a dead line for his alliance. Casterly Rock is still Robb's goal but he has to make amends first.


Oh, I understand. I was just hoping to see a new place on the opening credits (the best opening credits and music of any show. EVER).


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

I love Tyrion and Bronn's interactions. They are just so damn funny. Heck, I like Peter Dinklage's scenes, period. He is so awesome in this role.

Totally bored with Theon's torture. The bad part is that I'm rooting for the torturer, not Theon. Kill him and get it over with. Thanks for the hint about the horn blower. I never put that together.

I want to find out more about Margery and Lady Olenna. They are much more fun that Catelyn and Sansa Stark who whine constantly


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> (the best opening credits and music of any show. EVER).


Agree!!


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I love the show, but the last 2 have been pretty boring and haven't really moved the storyline along for a show that only has 10 episodes a season. IMHO


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Excellent nudity this week. Long overdue!





john4200 said:


> The girl that wasn't covering herself with her hands seemed to have neatly groomed pubic hair. I guess there are lots of very sharp blades in that keep that can be used for shaving, even if their usual use is to cut a bit deeper. But still, I would have thought a merkin would have been in order in that scene.


Sometimes the nudity bothers me, not because I'm prudish, nor because of having a merkin or not...

There are SO many instances of full frontal nudity that sometimes the PARTIAL nudity takes me out of the story. Emilia Clarke doesn't mind being topless or from behind, but she always covers her crotch in her nude scenes. Ros had no problem with it, neither did the girl who was neatly groomed, but it was pretty obvious the other girl did. And Robb's wife? She only wanted to show her butt, so they took extra care to cover her, so you didn't see a thing as she rolled over with Robb on top of her. The same with Brienne in the bath a few episodes ago.

It reminds me of the "implied" nudity they always have on broadcast TV, where in bed the guy lies there with the covers down, but the girl covers her chest. Why would she care?

I don't personally care how much more of a fight there was with the bear in the book, that was a touching scene with Jaime & Brienne.

Greg


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

gchance said:


> I don't personally care how much more of a fight there was with the bear in the book, that was a touching scene with Jaime & Brienne.


Yes, I like their interactions very much.

Was this the first time we've seen naked Robb?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

netringer said:


> I was convinced that the bear was CGI. I'll bet a lot of what we saw with the bear growling was CGI except for the long shots.


Nah, that was Bart the Bear. He's for real...which is why he was so tame. They probably would have gotten a more exciting fight out of a CGI bear.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Oh, and I suspect the big fire (that Jon Snow knows nothing about) is not a signal for Mance to attack, but a signal that Castle Black is burned down and they can cross without opposition.


How does burning Castle Black get them across the wall?


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## Mr. Merkin (May 6, 2005)

Why is that guy being such a jerk to Theon?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> How does burning Castle Black get them across the wall?


Heck, I thought the ice they climbed WAS the wall.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Walking through the tunnel at Castle Black is a whole lot easier than climbing it...


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

If it's really such a huge fire, it might just melt the wall.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

How about the timing of that Jamie Kingslayer?

He rides out for half a day, hears that Brienne is doomed, and insists that they have to ride back for the half day....arriving just in time during Bear vs. Brienne joust, with her still alive and fighting after she had suffered one bear paw swipe on her chest. Minutes later she would have been bear chow.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Walking through the tunnel at Castle Black is a whole lot easier than climbing it...


Yeah. That occurred to me, too.

There must be a group of nightswatch that are spinning a turnstile somewhere to operate the gates. Even if the gate doesn't open the wildings could tear it up.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Oh, and I suspect the big fire (that Jon Snow knows nothing about) is not a signal for Mance to attack, but a signal that Castle Black is burned down and they can cross without opposition.


No, that's not right. Mance said for them to go to the wall, wait for the giant fire, then attack castle black in the night. He said castle black is only guarded on one side, meaning they should cross over the wall first and attack from the south. Of course, with only 20 men, I'm not sure how they're supposed to do much of an attack. I'm guessing the idea is for the fire to somehow distract the crows, then they sneak in an open the tunnel or something.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Certainly not "no clue". There have been multiple hints, and then there was a clear reaction last week when Theon guessed Karhold.


No, almost every clue we have (and there are about a dozen clues now all tying together) suggest Bolton. The only thing that suggests otherwise is the guessing game which suggested they were in Karhold, but then that was quickly put in doubt by his suggestion that he may have been lying.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

mwhip said:


> Tywin bullying Joffrey was fun to watch. I actually like Tywin he can be mean to his children but the guy is a great leader and level headed.


You know, I said I really liked his character, but then his treatment of his kids made me hate him. But damn, it's hard to stay mad at him. Lots of that in this show. He pushed a kid out a window, but it's hard to stay mad at Jamie.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> No, that's not right. Mance said for them to go to the wall, wait for the giant fire, then attack castle black in the night. He said castle black is only guarded on one side, meaning they should cross over the wall first and attack from the south. Of course, with only 20 men, I'm not sure how they're supposed to do much of an attack. I'm guessing the idea is for the fire to somehow distract the crows, then they sneak in an open the tunnel or something.


most of the men at castle black are north of the wall.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

No talk of Khaleesi yet?!?

This is the most we've seen of all three dragons in detail I feel. Drogon is the favored it seems. We almost never see the green dragon (Rhaegal).

What do folks think of Khaleesi going after Yunkai after she is offered ships? Sounds foolish, but will it be worth it to win over more slaves and a new city? Possibly more free slaves to fight for her?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> No, almost every clue we have (and there are about a dozen clues now all tying together) suggest Bolton. The only thing that suggests otherwise is the guessing game which suggested they were in Karhold, but then that was quickly put in doubt by his suggestion that he may have been lying.


Huh? Just because they are in or near Karhold does not rule out the captor being the Bolton bastard.

And of course he was lying. But his reaction when Theon guessed Karhold was the most truthful thing in that scene. It seems a good bet they are at least near Karhold, or passed near it.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

audioscience said:


> What do folks think of Khaleesi going after Yunkai after she is offered ships? Sounds foolish, but will it be worth it to win over more slaves and a new city? Possibly more free slaves to fight for her?


How many troops does she have now? I seem to recall 8,000. Even with the dragons, not much of an army if several Westeros factions joined forces against her.

How many slaves are in Yunkai? 200,000? If even 10% of those joined her, that would be a formidable boost to her forces.

Seems to me she needs more support, and this is a great way to do it.



audioscience said:


> He rides out for half a day, hears that Brienne is doomed, and insists that they have to ride back for the half day....arriving just in time during Bear vs. Brienne joust, with her still alive and fighting after she had suffered one bear paw swipe on her chest.


I kept thinking as he was getting ready to ride out, why didn't he just demand Brienne's release as part of the condition for telling his father that Bolton was not responsible for his maiming? So much easier than riding out, changing his mind, and riding back into an armed camp.



pmeyers said:


> I love the show, but the last 2 have been pretty boring and haven't really moved the storyline along for a show that only has 10 episodes a season. IMHO


I've been disappointed with the pace of most of this season. After the first two seasons, the bar was set very high. Lot's of mulling about, lots of talk, some running around in circles (Theon). Not a lot of progress or major developments.

Most of all, I want more Tyrion action.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Mr. Merkin said:


> Why is that guy being such a jerk to Theon?


Getting him sexually aroused and then cutting off his junk.
That's a bit more than just being a jerk.
Yikes!

Took me all this time to recognize the torturer from MISFITS. another one of those where do i know that actor from moments...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The Tywin/Joffrey scene was the best part of this episode. I was hoping Tywin would go upside Joffrey's head but his calm aggression let Joffrey and us know who's boss.

I feel sorrier for me than for Theon that I have to sit through his seemingly endless (and hopefully not meaningless) torture scenes.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

An army marches on its stomach. How the 8,000 are eating is a mystery, so sure, let's toss in another 20,000. The dragons always have a nice tray of cutlets, too. 

I'm still confused about the wall. Isn't it cold and icy there? What is this area that they are walking in now? It's green and snow free. They're still north of the wall?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smbaker said:


> I kept thinking as he was getting ready to ride out, why didn't he just demand Brienne's release as part of the condition for telling his father that Bolton was not responsible for his maiming? So much easier than riding out, changing his mind, and riding back into an armed camp.


He thought they were going to ransom her back home. It was only later he found out they planned to murder her.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I'm still confused about the wall. Isn't it cold and icy there? What is this area that they are walking in now? It's green and snow free. They're still north of the wall?


The point of the last episode was the group Jon is with climbed OVER the Wall. So they are now south of it in order to sneak attack Castle Black from the rear.

There are only a few miles between the south side of the the Wall and vegetation.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Huh? Just because they are in or near Karhold does not rule out the captor being the Bolton bastard.
> 
> And of course he was lying. But his reaction when Theon guessed Karhold was the most truthful thing in that scene. It seems a good bet they are at least near Karhold, or passed near it.


It wasn't just that they were in Karhold. He also told Theon that his guess was correct that he was Rickard Karstark's son.

So if we assume that were true and not a lie, it would explain why when Bolton's bastard got to Winterfell, he found it already on fire. The Karstark's got there first, set it on fire, and the Bolton's arrived after. No deception is necessary, neither on Roose's or his bastard's part.

But how does that happen? Roose Bolton sent his son to Winterfell. If Rickard Karstark sent the orders to his son at the same time Roose Bolton did, how did they arrive first? Bolton's men (at the Dreadfort) are about half as far from Winterfell as Karhold is. So the Karstarks would have had to learn about it on their own and head to Winterfell before Robb ever heard about it. Not positive how that would have happened.

Then you've also got to figure out how the giant X plays into it. That's a Bolton trademark. Why would the Karstarks have copied it?


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> It wasn't just that they were in Karhold. He also told Theon that his guess was correct that he was Rickard Karstark's son.
> 
> So if we assume that were true and not a lie, it would explain why when Bolton's bastard got to Winterfell, he found it already on fire. The Karstark's got there first, set it on fire, and the Bolton's arrived after. No deception is necessary, neither on Roose's or his bastard's part.
> 
> ...


To frame the Boltons?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> Then you've also got to figure out how the giant X plays into it. That's a Bolton trademark. Why would the Karstarks have copied it?


Who says the Karstarks "copied it"? More likely the captor(s) are Boltons or Bolton men.

I'm not sure why you think anything that the captor says might be true. Didn't we already establish that he was a liar?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> An army marches on its stomach. How the 8,000 are eating is a mystery, so sure, let's toss in another 20,000. The dragons always have a nice tray of cutlets, too.


Well, if she keeps conquering cities as she travels, then there should be an endless supply of food...



Rob Helmerichs said:


> He thought they were going to ransom her back home. It was only later he found out they planned to murder her.


They just seemed so chummy to me at this point, that I expected him to insist on her release and eliminate any risk to her. He knew his story about the sapphires was a fraud, and he probably knew that her family couldn't provide the magnitude of ransom that he had promised.

I forget the exact series of events, did he know at the time he left that Roose Bolton was also planning on leaving? that she would be left in the care of the people who had previously attempted to rape her?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smbaker said:


> They just seemed so chummy to me at this point, that I expected him to insist on her release and eliminate any risk to her. He knew his story about the sapphires was a fraud, and he probably knew that her family couldn't provide the magnitude of ransom that he had promised.


Well, the risk to her could increase dramatically if she stayed with him...I doubt Tyrwin would treat her kindly.

Plus he pushes small children out high windows to protect incestuous relationships with his sister, so we can't always count on him to do the right thing.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

King Jeffy is sitting alone on the iron throne in that huge throne room. Not even the king's guards are there. He has nothing to do except watch the big fire pits - which BTW, how do they mange to vent the smoke out of there?

He tells Grampa he's busy.

The kid needs a Game Boy.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

john4200 said:


> Who says the Karstarks "copied it"? More likely the captor(s) are Boltons or Bolton men.


Or that the X-Frame is a standard Westerosi torture device, like a cross was to the Romans.

I'm still going with "Bolton's Bastard" as the architect of Theon's capture/torture, the pieces fit well enough. When the torturer acted like Theon had guessed right when he said Karstark, it could have been one more planned lie, just to f**k with Theon's head.

One question, wouldn't Theon have traveled through the North during his time as a Hostage to the Starks? Wouldn't he be able to recognize the castles of the principal Stark bannermen? -- I know he didn't get much of a view of his current locale, but if so, this goes to his captor not being a Northerner.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Can someone PM with a spoiler regarding Theon's story line? I've been tortured enough


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, the risk to her could increase dramatically if she stayed with him...I doubt Tyrwin would treat her kindly.


I don't know about that. Tywin seems to value the respect and legacy of his family above all. Unless there's value to him in seeing Brienne raped, tortured, or killed, I don't think he'd do it.

Somehow falling into Joffrey's hands, that's what she should be worried about at King's Landing.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus he pushes small children out high windows to protect incestuous relationships with his sister, so we can't always count on him to do the right thing.


This is so true.



tiassa said:


> Or that the X-Frame is a standard Westerosi torture device, like a cross was to the Romans.


This was my interpretation. It's my understanding that many roman crucifixions were done on X-shaped crosses (some claim that Jesus was crucified on an X-shaped cross), so I saw nothing unusual about GoT using an X-shaped cross.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Somehow falling into Joffrey's hands, that's what she should be worried about at King's Landing.


Remember that everybody thinks that Brienne killed Renley Baratheon, not that that fact would keep Jeffy from using her for crossbow practice.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Mr. Merkin said:


> Why is that guy being such a jerk to Theon?


All that poor Theon did was on his own initiative attack a poorly defended castle where he grew up, now headed by a crippled and bedridden 14 year old lord, behead one of the masters, and kill, burn and display the bodies of two innocent children.

Dude should plead that he had an unhappy childhood.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

I hate hate hate the Theon scenes. They are too torturey and I don't know why it is happening and neither does he. They make me cringe and feel a little sick. I'm ready for that to be over.

I am very engaged in this show, but it feels like each episode gives about 7 minutes to each storyline. We are creeeeping forward.

I have not read the books and have a guess about Rob's story. I will spoilerize it just in case, but I have no knowledge:



Spoiler



I bet when they get to the place they are going for this marriage, the guy who wanted Robb to marry his daughter will kill Robb's current wife. When it was revealed that she was pregnant, I became even more convinced.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

netringer said:


> King Jeffy


If you want to shorten his name, shouldn't it be "Joffy"?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I don't think this could really be considered much of a spoiler, but just in case I'm going to use spoiler tags. It refers to a shortened version of his name in the books.



Spoiler



In the books, some of the other characters sometimes refer to him as Joff.



I don't believe I've heard them refer to him using that name in the show.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

When did we even learn of the existence of a Bolton bastard?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

tiassa said:


> but this is almost getting painfully boring (although more painful for Theon I suppose!)


The jury's out on that. I find it pretty damn painful. 

Otherwise, not bad. It's hard to hate Jamie, and my only gripe about the Tywin/Joffrey scenes is that Joffrey was sufficiently intimidated that Tywin didn't have to slap him.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> When did we even learn of the existence of a Bolton bastard?


I think when Lord Bolton said he would send his bastard to Winterfell.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

zordude said:


> I think when Lord Bolton said he would send his bastard to Winterfell.


Yes, in the second season after word got out that Theon had ****** Robb good.

This topic was heavily discussed in the first or second episode.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

"The Bolton Bastard" sounds like a movie title. Or a race horse.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I feel sorrier for me than for Theon that I have to sit through his seemingly endless (and hopefully not meaningless) torture scenes.


Been said.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

The important question is: *WHERE ARE THE DIREWOLVES?*

Only Bran's is with him, CGI depending.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

netringer said:


> The important question is: *WHERE ARE THE DIREWOLVES?*
> 
> Only Bran's is with him, CGI depending.


Lady is dead.
Nymeria is is in the wilderness on her own.
Summer is with Bran.
Shaggy Dog is with Rickon.
Grey Wind is with Robb, we just don't see him.
Ghost was last seen with Sam, who we have not seen in many episodes.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> You know, I said I really liked his character, but then his treatment of his kids made me hate him. But damn, it's hard to stay mad at him. Lots of that in this show. He pushed a kid out a window, but it's hard to stay mad at Jamie.


Blaming Tyrion for his mother's death is the final straw. 



netringer said:


> Remember that everybody thinks that Brienne killed Renley Baratheon, not that that fact would keep Jeffy from using her for crossbow practice.


Renley's "good friend" Loras might beat him to it.



netringer said:


> All that poor Theon did was on his own initiative attack a poorly defended castle where he grew up being headed by a 14 year old lord, behead one of the masters, and kill, burn and display the bodies of two innocent children.
> .


You left out 14 year old CRIPPLED lord.



Shaunnick said:


> Lady is dead.
> Nymeria is is in the wilderness on her own.
> Summer is with Bran.
> Shaggy Dog is with Rickon.
> ...


I keep waiting for Nymeria to find Arya. Aren't they in a somewhat similar area of wilderness? There's supposed to be this close bond and all.....


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Spoiler about the books:



Spoiler



I ordered them.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Huh? Just because they are in or near Karhold does not rule out the captor being the Bolton bastard.
> 
> And of course he was lying. But his reaction when Theon guessed Karhold was the most truthful thing in that scene. It seems a good bet they are at least near Karhold, or passed near it.





john4200 said:


> Who says the Karstarks "copied it"? More likely the captor(s) are Boltons or Bolton men.
> 
> I'm not sure why you think anything that the captor says might be true. Didn't we already establish that he was a liar?


Huh? You've got me confused now. You are saying you think it is the Bolton's holding him? I agree, but the Bolton's are located in the Dreadfort, not Karhold, which is where the Karstarks live. And you think Theon's guess was correct last week, but Theon guessed that the person was Rickard Karstark's son. So how can you simultaneously think that it's a Bolton, but that Theon's guess was right? Or do you think only half of Theon's guess was right, and that the captors reaction was genuine for the first half of the guess and then faked for the 2nd half of Theon's guess?

And I actually don't think anything that captor said was true. You were the one who seemed to think his reaction was genuine, so I'm just indulging and saying "if that were true, then here's how things work out".


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Blaming Tyrion for his mother's death is the final straw.


Well, you know, I said the same thing too. But damn the guy is good at what he does. The marriage plot was once again a dick move to his children, but brilliant strategy. And his negotiations with lady Olenna equally brilliant. And then his treatment of Joffrey. I really can't stay mad at the guy.



> Renley's "good friend" Loras might beat him to it.


I don't think there's a problem there. I don't believe Loras thinks it was Brienne. He blames Stannis for it. I'm pretty sure that was the takeaway from the scene where Loras, Margery, and Littlefinger were all there with Renly's corpse. Loras beleived it was Stannis, Littlefinger convinced him the best way to get revenge on Stannis was to leave and fight another day, then Littlefinger discussed with Tywin how to use Loras' hate for Stannis to their advantage by joining their houses in marriage.



> I keep waiting for Nymeria to find Arya. Aren't they in a somewhat similar area of wilderness? There's supposed to be this close bond and all.....


Semi close. Nymeria was last seen at the inn of the crossroads. Arya is somewhere between Riverrun and Harrenhal. They're at least a few days travel apart, with a major river between. It's close enough to be possible, but not highly probably.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> ...the Bolton's are located in the Dreadfort, not Karhold, which is where the Karstarks live. And you think Theon's guess was correct last week, but Theon guessed that the person was Rickard Karstark's son. So how can you simultaneously think that it's a Bolton, but that Theon's guess was right? Or do you think only half of Theon's guess was right, and that the captors reaction was genuine for the first half of the guess and then faked for the 2nd half of Theon's guess?


The Bolton castle is the Dreadfort, but that does not mean that the Bolton bastard would necessarily be holding Theon at the Dreadfort. Maybe he knows someone in or near Karhold who lets him use his dungeon. Even if Theon is being held in the Dreadfort, which is not that far from Karhold, when Theon guessed Karhold and the captor reacted ("did you see a banner?"), it suggests that Theon was taken near Karhold to get to the dungeon.

I did not notice any strong reaction from the captor when Theon started talking about Karstarks. It was only when Theon previously guessed "Karhold" that the captor has a pronounced reaction.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I lost track.

How did Lord Bolton and his cronies end up holding Harrenhall? Are they the crew that was there all along when Tywin was HQ'd there? The guys who were giving everybody chest ratholes?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I did not notice any strong reaction from the captor when Theon started talking about Karstarks. It was only when Theon previously guessed "Karhold" that the captor has a pronounced reaction.


You might want to watch it again. When Theon says Karhold, you don't even see the captor's initial reaction. The camera stays on Theon for over 3 seconds. By then, the captors reaction is pretty hard to gauge. When he guessed who, however, you see the captor's immediate reaction, and it was definitely the more convincing of the 2 reactions that was shown (though I believe neither was genuine).


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> I lost track.
> 
> How did Lord Bolton and his cronies end up holding Harrenhall? Are they the crew that was there all along when Tywin was HQ'd there? The guys who were giving everybody chest ratholes?


Roose Bolton was with Robb when they took it after the Mountain (who was left behind by Tywin to defend it) fled Harrenhal. I don't recall if Robb specifically said anything about it before he left, but it can at least be assumed that Roose Bolton was told to stay and hold it when Robb headed for Riverrun for the funeral.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> By then, the captors reaction is pretty hard to gauge.


Not hard at all. And by reaction, I don't just mean his facial expression. I mean what he was doing and his level of interest in what Theon was saying.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

smbaker said:


> I kept thinking as he was getting ready to ride out, why didn't he just demand Brienne's release as part of the condition for telling his father that Bolton was not responsible for his maiming?


I thought he did try that, in last week's episode, and was rebuffed.



Kablemodem said:


> Spoiler about the books:


I got them for my Kindle. Much easier on the arms . Plus much less S&H.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Excellent nudity this week. Long overdue!


The horror of it being that Robb's wife with the perpetual tushie is Charlie Chaplin's granddaughter.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

What's wrong with that?


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I don't know about that. Tywin seems to value the respect and legacy of his family above all. Unless there's value to him in seeing Brienne raped, tortured, or killed, I don't think he'd do it.


Tywin isn't really the torturing for torturing's sake type. Last season when Arya was being kept prisoner, and a prisoner a day was being pulled out of the holding area to be tortured, Tywin came riding in and put a quick stop to that ... and actually made one of the prisoners--Arya--his personal servant.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> Tywin isn't really the torturing for torturing's sake type. Last season when Arya was being kept prisoner, and a prisoner a day was being pulled out of the holding area to be tortured, Tywin came riding in and put a quick stop to that ... and actually made one of the prisoners--Arya--his personal servant.


On the other hand, I'm not sure how he would respond to the person entrusted to deliver his son safely to him, considering the job she did...

(And I'm not saying that would be fair, just that he wouldn't be too thrilled, and I suspect she would not enjoy the form his lack of thrill would take, although she probably would not not-enjoy it for long.)


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

gchance said:


> Sometimes the nudity bothers me, not because I'm prudish, nor because of having a merkin or not...
> 
> There are SO many instances of full frontal nudity that sometimes the PARTIAL nudity takes me out of the story. Emilia Clarke doesn't mind being topless or from behind, but she always covers her crotch in her nude scenes. Ros had no problem with it, neither did the girl who was neatly groomed, but it was pretty obvious the other girl did. And Robb's wife? She only wanted to show her butt, so they took extra care to cover her, so you didn't see a thing as she rolled over with Robb on top of her. The same with Brienne in the bath a few episodes ago.
> 
> ...


I do notice the differences in the characters and how they handle their nudity, but it doesn't bother me in the least. I'm actually fairly surprised that you see main characters get nude at all. Usually you don't see nudity from the show's stars, but from bit players, such as Theon's teasers.

BTW we need more Emila Clarke nudity!


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I do notice the differences in the characters and how they handle their nudity, but it doesn't bother me in the least. I'm actually fairly surprised that you see main characters get nude at all. Usually you don't see nudity from the show's stars, but from bit players, such as Theon's teasers.
> 
> BTW we need more Emila Clarke nudity!


I was thinking about this recently. Most of the "primary" actress have had one or two nude scenes but that is it. Emila Clarke was nude most of the 1st season, but has been clothed ever sense. All the rest (Ygritte, Asha, Robb's wife, Shae. Margary) had one (or maybe two) nude scenes but that was it. I wonder if there contract required at least one nude scene, but they don't have to do any more.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> The Tywin/Joffrey scene was the best part of this episode. I was hoping Tywin would go upside Joffrey's head but his calm aggression let Joffrey and us know who's boss.
> 
> I feel sorrier for me than for Theon that I have to sit through his seemingly endless (and hopefully not meaningless) torture scenes.


Agree about the Tywin/Joff scene. That was priceless. I wasn't sure who I wanted to be put in who's place?

Here's what I wonder, since Joff is King and he has arbitrarily had people executed, what happens if Tywin irks him to the point where Joff just says to the Kingsguard to kill him? That's not something I would put past Joff.

I'm hoping that they finally reslove the Theon torture too, and at this point if he's just killed, the whole thing would be pretty pointless, unless the producers just wanted him tortured for fun.

We need some movement on the Bran and Arya stories. They just seem to be standing still.

I do get the feeling we are moving toward something very big. Right now it's more of a political manipulation story than anything else, which I like, but I'd like to see some real battles between all of the factions. It's time that someone really makes a push for the throne, whether it's Robb or Khaliese or whoever. Too much of Joff on the throne right now.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Here's what I wonder, since Joff is King and he has arbitrarily had people executed, what happens if Tywin irks him to the point where Joff just says to the Kingsguard to kill him? That's not something I would put past Joff.


Which I suspect is exactly why Tywin is at least pretending to be civil and respectful to Joffrey (he's not very good at concealing his contempt, but lucky for him Joff is even worse at reading people).


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which I suspect is exactly why Tywin is at least pretending to be civil and respectful to Joffrey (he's not very good at concealing his contempt, but lucky for him Joff is even worse at reading people).


Yep, but I do get the feeling from that scene that Tywin was very close to exploding on this grandson. He's such a great "negotiator" that he kept it together. I do think the only reason he approached him directly is because the kid's mother is so worthless. I can see though the potential for Joff to go to his mom about Tywin and a potential plot, since she doesn't want to marry Loras. Fun to speculate about this show.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Yep, but I do get the feeling from that scene that Tywin was very close to exploding on this grandson. He's such a great "negotiator" that he kept it together.


True, but his behavior was also no doubt tempered by the knowledge that if he HAD exploded on his grandson, it would have been followed very closely by his own execution.

I suspect the Lannisters are beginning to wonder if they weren't better off before they killed Robert. They might have hated him, but at least he could be managed, generally.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Tyrion has successfully slapped the king across the face (twice?) and he's not nearly as scary as Tywin. With as much bluster as he shows, deep down he's still just a boy.....but who's to say just how much longer that "boy" will be there.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect the Lannisters are beginning to wonder if they weren't better off before they killed Robert. They might have hated him, but at least he could be managed, generally.


Absolutely! They have almost no control over Joffrey and they know it. Well, all but Tywin. I wonder how much control Jaime will have over him when he returns, if any at all?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Didn't Tywin tell Cercie a couple eps ago that if (since?) she couldn't control Joff, then he would?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> Tyrion has successfully slapped the king across the face (twice?) and he's not nearly as scary as Tywin. With as much bluster as he shows, deep down he's still just a boy.....but who's to say just how much longer that "boy" will be there.


And now he's a boy who has learned that he can kill people for fun, because he's the king. I suspect it won't take long to realize that if he can kill people for fun, he can also kill people who have pissed him off.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And now he's a boy who has learned that he can kill people for fun, because he's the king. I suspect it won't take long to realize that if he can kill people for fun, he can also kill people who have pissed him off.


Well he's already done that if you count Ned, and he's made MANY threats to Sansa not to piss him off or she's next.

Pure speculation (have not read any books past the first):



Spoiler



As we really haven't had a WTF moment yet this season, I wonder if that's what we are leading up to, a battle between Tywin and Joffrey and one meets their demise.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> Well he's already done that if you count Ned, and he's made MANY threats to Sansa not to piss him off or she's next.
> 
> Pure speculation (have not read any books past the first):
> 
> ...


No need to spoiler that. And do you not count Jaime's hand being cut off as a WTF moment?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> No need to spoiler that. And do you not count Jaime's hand being cut off as a WTF moment?


No, I don't count that, not in the Ned Stark execution or Twyin saving the day type of WTF moment. I think there's going to be something much bigger.

I spoilered it, in case it was something that happened in the book. But yeah, I guess I don't have to spoiler speculation.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

A couple of points:

1. I don't think the torturer's reaction was genuine AT ALL. I would not read anything into it other than another way to torture Theon by making him think he was guessing correctly.

2. I don't think Joffrey can successfully order Tywin's execution. Maybe the Kingsguard would obey, but I'm quite sure that the king would be dead before Tywin if people had to choose between the two.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> No need to spoiler that. And do you not count Jaime's hand being cut off as a WTF moment?


I believe those may have been the exact words I yelled out loud.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> ...2. I don't think Joffrey can successfully order Tywin's execution. Maybe the Kingsguard would obey, but I'm quite sure that the king would be dead before Tywin if people had to choose between the two.


The Kingsguard had no problem beheading The Hand on Joffey's order when it was Ned Stark.

For Tywin, Cercie and Jamie and Tyrion would make it not happen.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Also, Ned was an idiot compared to Tywin.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Here's what I wonder, since Joff is King and he has arbitrarily had people executed, what happens if Tywin irks him to the point where Joff just says to the Kingsguard to kill him? That's not something I would put past Joff.


I think that for as insolent as Joffrey is, he's smart enough to realize that Tywin is the reason he's still on the throne and Tywin is the one keeping the house of cards from falling. He's the master administrator and Joffrey must understand that he knows nothing of how to administer the affairs of the kingdom.

Or maybe I'm giving Joffrey too much credit, and he's just scared of his grandpa.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

netringer said:


> The Kingsguard had no problem beheading The Hand on Joffey's order when it was Ned Stark.


After Ned Stark had publicly confessed to treason.

I'm sure Tywin could put some money in the right pockets and Joffrey could be made to disappear without any questions. Joffrey on the other hand, isn't smart enough to do so.

One of my favorite bits this season has been the fear in Joffrey's eyes as Tywin walked up those steps. Although I despise the character, Jack Gleeson has to be one of the most talented actors in this series. He really brings the character to life.



DUDE_NJX said:


> Also, Ned was an idiot compared to Tywin.


Ned was a complete idiot compared to Hodor. Hodor still has his head.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> On the other hand, I'm not sure how he would respond to the person entrusted to deliver his son safely to him, considering the job she did...
> 
> (And I'm not saying that would be fair, just that he wouldn't be too thrilled, and I suspect she would not enjoy the form his lack of thrill would take, although she probably would not not-enjoy it for long.)


I see Tywin as 100% tactician - every single thing he does is part of a tactical plan. Sure, he has a ruthless aura, but that's not because he necessarily enjoys the kinds of things that go along with being ruthless (e.g., torturing and pillaging and murdering), it's because cultivating a ruthless aura by doing those things is terrific tactics.

So if he thinks torturing and/or killing Brienne is a good tactic (perhaps to discourage others from failing to protect Lannister appendages), I have no doubt that he will not hesitate for a second to have it done, but I don't think he would do it out of spite or anger or for kicks.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I spoilered it, in case it was something that happened in the book. But yeah, I guess I don't have to spoiler speculation.


You're right, it didn't need to be spoilered, but I appreciate the caution.

It's a good rule of thumb for any prediction or speculation in the episode threads to be accompanied by a statement that the speculator has not read the books, to remove any doubt as to the need for a spoiler.

(I don't think anyone who has read the books should be predicting or speculating in the episode threads).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Or maybe I'm giving Joffrey too much credit, and he's just scared of his grandpa.


You're giving Joffrey too much credit, and at this point I'm not convinced he's scared of anybody. He thinks he's a god, and that he can do anything.


Bananfish said:


> So if he thinks torturing and/or killing Brienne is a good tactic (perhaps to discourage others from failing to protect Lannister appendages), I have no doubt that he will not hesitate for a second to have it done, but I don't think he would do it out of spite or anger or for kicks.


I think it would simply be punishment for her failure to do the task she was assigned, a failure that led to the maiming of the son Tywin can stand to look at. (I wonder what he will think of Jamie now that he's been maimed?)


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> So if he thinks torturing and/or killing Brienne is a good tactic (perhaps to discourage others from failing to protect Lannister appendages), I have no doubt that he will not hesitate for a second to have it done, but I don't think he would do it out of spite or anger or for kicks.


I think Jaime would insist that his be-handing was not Brienne's fault. Actually, it was his own fault for causing the delay on the bridge thereby allowing them to be captured.

On another note, if and when Jaime and Brienne both show up in the same place, I wonder if Cersei will be jealous of Jaime's affection toward Brienne, even though it's not romantic affection (or will it be?) Don't expect and answer....just thinking out loud. I have only read through book one, so I have no clue.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

smbaker said:


> I'm sure Tywin could put some money in the right pockets and Joffrey could be made to disappear without any questions. Joffrey on the other hand, isn't smart enough to do so.
> 
> Ned was a complete idiot compared to Hodor. Hodor still has his head.


If so, Tywin would be wise to put the money in those pockets right away--Joff will be old enough to be completely unmanageable by anyone very soon.

On the other hand, Joff's status as a Baratheon, however true, is what makes him King. It's not like Tywin could become king in his place.

We're being a little tough on Ned here. If a person feels that his integrity is worth more than his head, he may be rewarded at some point.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> 2. I don't think Joffrey can successfully order Tywin's execution. Maybe the Kingsguard would obey, but I'm quite sure that the king would be dead before Tywin if people had to choose between the two.


Here's a potential scenario that they could be setting up. And forgive me because I'm bad with character names, especially some of the new ones.

We've already seen that Joff's fiance has a way of getting "the people" on her side. We've also seen how Tywin has tried to blackmail the fiance's mother into having Loras marry Cercie. And now we see Tywin try to delicately strong arm Joff. So, who's to say that with his fiance's "influence" they concoct a way to get rid of Tywin and she uses her influence with the people to get them on her side. Not far fetched is it?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> If so, Tywin would be wise to put the money in those pockets right away--Joff will be old enough to be completely unmanageable by anyone very soon.
> 
> On the other hand, Joff's status as a Baratheon, however true, is what makes him King. It's not like Tywin could become king in his place.
> 
> We're being a little tough on Ned here. If a person feels that his integrity is worth more than his head, he may be rewarded at some point.


Joffrey has a much younger brother who could more easily be managed. If Tywin felt the need to take drastic action.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think that for as insolent as Joffrey is, he's smart enough to realize that Tywin is the reason he's still on the throne and Tywin is the one keeping the house of cards from falling. He's the master administrator and Joffrey must understand that he knows nothing of how to administer the affairs of the kingdom.
> 
> *Or maybe I'm giving Joffrey too much credit, and he's just scared of his grandpa.*


There's nothing about Joffrey that tells me he's smart enough to follow that logic. He's still a kid. But, his fiance....and the mother, they are smart enough. They've been showing all season how Tywin is pushing his kids closer to the brink. All have reasons to NOT want Tywin around. Cercie, because she doesn't want to marry Loras, and also not want to lose influence with her son, Tyrion, because his father just hates him and he knows his father never gives him any credit for what he's done, and Jamie because Tywin never sent someone to rescue him and he lost his hand. Jamie has already told the story about how he betraid his oath to the Kingsguard and slayed the old king. Betraying his father might not be a reach. So between Joff's fiance's influence and and Tywin's treatment of his offsrping, there's motive. And, it also gives the Lannister kids control of the money as well.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> I see Tywin as 100% tactician - every single thing he does is part of a tactical plan. Sure, he has a ruthless aura, but that's not because he necessarily enjoys the kinds of things that go along with being ruthless (e.g., torturing and pillaging and murdering), it's because cultivating a ruthless aura by doing those things is terrific tactics.
> 
> So if he thinks torturing and/or killing Brienne is a good tactic (perhaps to discourage others from failing to protect Lannister appendages), I have no doubt that he will not hesitate for a second to have it done, but I don't think he would do it out of spite or anger or for kicks.


You're right, and if my speculation is correct, this would have to be a Survivor style blindside to make it work. Tywin could NEVER see it coming, or he'll do something to prevent it, maybe even "outing" Joffrey as illegitimate and making a deal with Stannis or something like that.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> If so, Tywin would be wise to put the money in those pockets right away--Joff will be old enough to be completely unmanageable by anyone very soon.
> 
> On the other hand, Joff's status as a Baratheon, however true, is what makes him King. It's not like Tywin could become king in his place.
> 
> We're being a little tough on Ned here. If a person feels that his integrity is worth more than his head, he may be rewarded at some point.


Agreed and that's how I see it. So, if he gives up on his "grandson" as king, he could go and make an alliance with another and then "out" Joff. That all makes sense if Cercie and Tyrion (and Jamie) are part of the plot to get rid of him.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I don't think Joffrey can successfully order Tywin's execution. Maybe the Kingsguard would obey, but I'm quite sure that the king would be dead before Tywin if people had to choose between the two.





netringer said:


> The Kingsguard had no problem beheading The Hand on Joffey's order when it was Ned Stark.
> 
> For Tywin, Cercie and Jamie and Tyrion would make it not happen.





DUDE_NJX said:


> Also, Ned was an idiot compared to Tywin.


Ned may have been an idiot (he was smart and honorable, but he had no head (teehee) for palace intrigue), but that wasn't his main problem. His main problem was that he didn't have enough swords at his disposal, especially after Jaime and his men ambushed Ned in King's Landing and killed his guards. He tried to strike a deal with Littlefinger to get the City Watch on his side, but he learned too late that you can't trust Littlefinger.

I don't think Tywin will have the same problem. He rode into King's Landing with an impressive force, and I would hazard a guess that most are still there with him. And since Jaime is still the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, I would doubt that even any of them would raise a finger against Tywin.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

I can't see Tywin outing Joffrey as the offspring of Cersei and Jaime. For one thing, it's not enough just to say it ... you really need to be able to prove it, and DNA testing isn't exactly available. But more importantly, Tywin knows that all his power is derived from the Lannister name ... he's not going to do anything that tars the Lannister brand and thereby reduces his power.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> On the other hand, Joff's status as a Baratheon, however true, is what makes him King. It's not like Tywin could become king in his place.


Well, somehow the transition occurred from Targaryen to Baratheon. 

Cersei has other children that are Baratheon in name. I don't recall, are any of them male?



stellie93 said:


> We're being a little tough on Ned here. If a person feels that his integrity is worth more than his head, he may be rewarded at some point.


It's too bad he didn't hold to his integrity when it came to confessing to a crime that he didn't commit. While the end result to him would have been the same, his family would have had a slightly better standing without Ned being considered an admitted traitor.



Bananfish said:


> I can't see Tywin outing Joffrey as the offspring of Cersei and Jaime.


No need to "out" him. Just let there be an "accident" with his crossbow. An uncontrolled unmanageable Joffrey will tar the Lannister name quickly on his own.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> I see Tywin as 100% tactician - every single thing he does is part of a tactical plan. Sure, he has a ruthless aura, but that's not because he necessarily enjoys the kinds of things that go along with being ruthless (e.g., torturing and pillaging and murdering), it's because cultivating a ruthless aura by doing those things is terrific tactics.
> 
> So if he thinks torturing and/or killing Brienne is a good tactic (perhaps to discourage others from failing to protect Lannister appendages), I have no doubt that he will not hesitate for a second to have it done, but I don't think he would do it out of spite or anger or for kicks.


I encourage you to think hard about the story that caused the song "The Rains of Castamere" to be written.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Ned was a complete idiot compared to Hodor. Hodor still has his head.


Extending that logic - does that make Hodor twice as smart as Theon Greyjoy?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You're giving Joffrey too much credit, and at this point I'm not convinced he's scared of anybody. He thinks he's a god, and that he can do anything.


I think he's well on his way toward not being afraid of anyone, but as we saw in this episode, he's still very intimidated by Tywin and clearly not willing to do anything about it. Tywin moved the location of the Small Council meetings because he's too busy to walk to the normal location. And then when Joffrey complains, Tywin says he should have himself carried. So Tywin doesn't want to be inconvenienced but has no problem suggesting the King should be inconvenienced. Were it anyone else, Joffrey would have that person's head on a spike, but he's clearly still afraid of Tywin.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DreadPirateRob said:


> He tried to strike a deal with Littlefinger to get the City Watch on his side, but he learned too late that you can't trust Littlefinger.


I don't think he trusted Littlefinger--by that time he was desperate. I don't remember why he confessed, but he was backed into a corner. The deal was, they would send him to the wall, which I always thought would make an awesome storyline. But then Joffrey went crazy.

The throne went from Targaryn to Baratheon via a war. I don't think Tywin wants to go to war against his own family. And I don't think Cercei would ever go against Joffrey. She does love her children, however psychotic they may be.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> The throne went from Targaryn to Baratheon via a war.


Not really a spoiler, but it explains why the Baratheons could claim the throne after unseating the Targaryn's.


Spoiler



A Targaryan king a few generations back had an illegitimate son that started his own great house of Baratheon, then was granted the lands of Storm's End (by his father/king).

Fast forward the the rebellion. Once the mad King started killing people and Ned's sister was supposedly kidnapped by the mad king's son Rhargar, Robert led the rebellion and since he had Targaryan blood he would be next in line to the throne after all the Targaryan's were killed or ran off.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Cersei has other children that are Baratheon in name. I don't recall, are any of them male?


Yes, but both Myrcella (girl) and Tommen (boy) are Jamie's kids, too.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I disagree with quite a few posters about Cersei, Tyrion, and Jaime's feelings towards their father. They may wish him dead because of the things he makes them do, but I think they worship him and would do anything for the slightest nod of approval or kind word.

At this point in the relationship, they could never kill him. Worse, their money and power flows through him. And, as was made clear, Jaime would not inherit (Kingsguard) and neither would Tyrion (imp).


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I disagree with quite a few posters about Cersei, Tyrion, and Jaime's feelings towards their father. They may wish him dead because of the things he makes them do, but I think they worship him and would do anything for the slightest nod of approval or kind word.
> 
> At this point in the relationship, they could never kill him. Worse, their money and power flows through him. And, as was made clear, Jaime would not inherit (Kingsguard) and neither would Tyrion (imp).


That brings up the question, WHO would inherit? I wouldn't think Cersei (female) could inherit either.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

The blacksmith boy?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

allan said:


> That brings up the question, WHO would inherit? I wouldn't think Cersei (female) could inherit either.


Well, technically, Tyrion is next in line. He said as much during his epic one-on-one with Tywin. And we all know how Tywin felt about THAT!

Would Jaime and Cersei allow Tyrion to take control? I would say that has about as much chance of happening as Ned re-attaching his head and taking over Winterfell.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> The blacksmith boy?


Assuming this was not a joke. We're not talking about the throne, we're talking about inheriting the Lannisters' land and fortune.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Oh, sorry. Should've read the previous posts before replying


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

allan said:


> That brings up the question, WHO would inherit? I wouldn't think Cersei (female) could inherit either.


I would think the best Tywin could hope for is a grandson that meets his expectations, either Joff's little brother or a child from Tyrion/Sansa or Cersie/Loras.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Boys get their father's name, not mother, right?

So a Loras/Cersei child would be a tyrell and would have no claim on anything Lannister, right?

OTOH, they seemed to imply that a Tyrion/Sansa son would get Winterfell should Robb die (they assume Bran and the other kid are dead). So I think the fact that the Lannister in the marriage is male makes a difference.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm not entirely clear on Westeros, but in most Western primogeniture schemes, you go through all the sons (and their sons), then daughters (or better, their sons). Which would make the line of succession Jaime, Tyrion, Joffrey, and Tommen.* I would think Jaime would be eligible if he were no longer in the Kingsguard. And I suspect anybody could be disinherited.

*Depending on whether bastards are allowed to succeed, which certainly seems not to be the case in Westeros, if Joffrey and Tommen's true parentage was known it would either move tthem up past Tyrion or eliminate them altogether.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

See, I thought Joffrey would only have a claim to Baratheon.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> ...Jamie has already told the story about how he betraid his oath to the Kingsguard and slayed the old king. Betraying his father might not be a reach. So between Joff's fiance's influence and and Tywin's treatment of his offsrping, there's motive. And, it also gives the Lannister kids control of the money as well.


The point of that story is Jamie had to choose between his duty to obey the king as Kingsguard and the life of his father, Tywin. He chose Tywin, and in the end remained as Kingsguard to King Robert.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

There is a male Lannister cousin (Lancel, I think) -- he was the one Cersei was boffing after Jamie was captured (and that Tirion blackmailed into spying on Cersei for him), I know he doesn't fall in the direct line in the UK system, but I think the current holder of a title in Westeros can name his heir -- that's what Tirion wanted Tywin to do. So Tywin could name Lancel the Lannister heir which would throw another wrench in the works.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> See, I thought Joffrey would only have a claim to Baratheon.


No, it's pretty universal in male primogeniture structures that if you run out of direct male-line descendants, you got to men who are descended from women. So once you've gone through the Lannister men, Joffrey is next in line, regardless of what he inherited from his "father" Robert. (Bastards can, by the way, be legitimized; there was some passing mention of the possibility in relation to Jon Snow.)

If he were a kind, decent, and generous person he would allow the Lannister s to pass to Tommen since he already has the royal domain and the Baratheon lands. But he's not kind, decent, and generous; he's Joffrey. So given the opportunity he would no doubt cling to it all.

But we're far from such a scenario, and things change fast in Westeros.


tiassa said:


> There is a male Lannister cousin (Lancel, I think) -- he was the one Cersei was boffing after Jamie was captured (and that Tirion blackmailed into spying on Cersei for him), I know he doesn't fall in the direct line in the UK system, but I think the current holder of a title in Westeros can name his heir -- that's what Tirion wanted Tywin to do. So Tywin could name Lancel the Lannister heir which would throw another wrench in the works.


Yes, the system here seems rather loose, and personal preference can trump The System. Except for the throne, where the law seems absolute (except when large armies are involved, but even then they come up with some legal excuse).

(That was the interesting thing about Renly; he had no excuse, except "People like me." Had he won, it would have been interesting to see if he could have convinced anybody that he deserved the throne.)


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

netringer said:


> The point of that story is Jamie had to choose between his duty to obey the king as Kingsguard and the life of his father, Tywin. He chose Tywin, and in the end remained as Kingsguard to King Robert.


That wasn't the story. Jaime killed the King to protect the lives of everyone in Kings Landing, not just his father. And as a sworn member of the Kingsguard, and being in good standing with the new king, he was not only allowed to stay on as a member of the Kingsguard, but stayed as its head.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> That wasn't the story. Jaime killed the King to protect the lives of everyone in Kings Landing, not just his father. And as a sworn member of the Kingsguard, and being in good standing with the new king, he was not only allowed to stay on as a member of the Kingsguard, but stayed as its head.


Jaime did not become head of the Kingsguard until Barriston Selmy was forcibly retired by Joffrey.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

That brings me to something that has been bugging me ... why was Jaime's speech in the hot tub to Brienne about the events that led to his killing the Mad King surprising news to her in any way? All he really said was that he killed him because he was crazy, and that wasn't news ... he didn't get the nickname the Mad King for nothing. And as far as explaining the events to Ned Stark, I wouldn't have thought there'd even have been a need - ultimately, everyone, including Ned, was quite content that the Mad King was gone.

AFAIK, Jaime never went on trial or faced any repercussions, other than picking up a totally cool nickname (Kingslayer). I suppose that's at least partly because the new regime appreciated the act, but it was still a member of the Kingsguard killing the man he was sworn to protect, and he's been allowed to just go about his business.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Jaime did not become head of the Kingsguard until Barriston Selmy was forcibly retired by Joffrey.


Ah, I stand corrected. I though Jaime was in charge under Robert Baratheon, due to his "connections."


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> That brings me to something that has been bugging me ... why was Jaime's speech in the hot tub to Brienne about the events that led to his killing the Mad King surprising news to her in any way? All he really said was that he killed him because he was crazy, and that wasn't news ... he didn't get the nickname the Mad King for nothing. And as far as explaining the events to Ned Stark, I wouldn't have thought there'd even have been a need - ultimately, everyone, including Ned, was quite content that the Mad King was gone.
> 
> AFAIK, Jaime never went on trial or faced any repercussions, other than picking up a totally cool nickname (Kingslayer). I suppose that's at least partly because the new regime appreciated the act, but it was still a member of the Kingsguard killing the man he was sworn to protect, and he's been allowed to just go about his business.


I think we are to believe that the part about the Mad King ordering to kill everyone was unknown to her.

ie. they knew he was mad, but they didn't know they would all be dead if it wasn't for Jamie.

Jamie referenced it again in this episode when he said he saved 500k lives.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Jamie saving the 500K lives would depend on the Knights actually following the King's orders. They would, like Selmy and The Hound finally did, just refuse and quit.

Although Selmy did carry out killing the babies - which I guess was his last straw.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> I think we are to believe that the part about the Mad King ordering to kill everyone was unknown to her.
> 
> ie. they knew he was mad, but they didn't know they would all be dead if it wasn't for Jamie.
> 
> Jamie referenced it again in this episode when he said he saved 500k lives.


I guess that's right, but the idea that he wouldn't have explained that to the world (including Ned Stark) is pretty ludicrous. It was completely believable and mostly provable (the stashes of wildfire would have attested to it) - Aerys Targaryen wasn't called the Mad King because he was a harmless doddering fool that talked to himself or walked around the castle naked ... it was because he was a vicious, paranoid, blood-letting despot.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> I think we are to believe that the part about the Mad King ordering to kill everyone was unknown to her.
> 
> ie. they knew he was mad, but they didn't know they would all be dead if it wasn't for Jamie.
> 
> Jamie referenced it again in this episode when he said he saved 500k lives.


Exactly. Brienne, like many in Westoros (Ned Stark included) assumed Jaime saw the writing on the wall about the rebellion being lost and betrayed his vows in order to save himself.

The truth is Jaime realized the King was about to massacre thousands of innocent lives in a final act of cruelty. In that moment Jaime no longer saw the man as a king, but as a genocidal maniac.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Bananfish said:


> I guess that's right, but the idea that he wouldn't have explained that to the world (including Ned Stark) is pretty ludicrous. It was completely believable and mostly provable (the stashes of wildfire would have attested to it) - Aerys Targaryen wasn't called the Mad King because he was a harmless doddering fool that talked to himself or walked around the castle naked ... it was because he was a vicious, paranoid, blood-letting despot.


And honestly, wyldfire is dangerous enough that you'd need to send in the equivilent of the bomb squad to clear out those stashes from under King's Landing.

You wouldn't really want to risk the entire city spontaniously combusting due to a decaying or broken storage container 

So you'd think the existance of those stashes would have come out later anyway.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

netringer said:


> Jamie saving the 500K lives would depend on the Knights actually following the King's orders


It wasn't the knights that would carry out those final orders, it was the pyromancers. The mad king wanted to "burn them all."


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

netringer said:


> Jamie saving the 500K lives would depend on the Knights actually following the King's orders. They would, like Selmy and The Hound finally did, just refuse and quit.
> 
> Although Selmy did carry out killing the babies - which I guess was his last straw.


I thought the Mountain did in the babes.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> And honestly, wyldfire is dangerous enough that you'd need to send in the equivilent of the bomb squad to clear out those stashes from under King's Landing.
> 
> You wouldn't really want to risk the entire city spontaniously combusting due to a decaying or broken storage container
> 
> So you'd think the existance of those stashes would have come out later anyway.


And the idea that Ned wouldn't have been open to Jaime's story is pretty far-fetched when Ned's father and brother had just been executed by the Mad King on a pretext - there's nobody in the world Ned wanted killed more than the Mad King. One "he ordered the pyromancer to burn the entire populace with wyldfire - I had no choice but to stop him" from Jaime, and Ned would have been furiously nodding his head up and down and put him up for a for a Wolfram Cross medal.

Sorry to everyone for rehashing all this from two episodes ago!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> Although Selmy did carry out killing the babies - which I guess was his last straw.


Selmy was let go near the end of Season 1. The babies were killed in the first episode of Season 2. Aside from that, it wasn't even the kingsguard that carried that out. It was the gold cloaks who killed the babies.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> Selmy was let go near the end of Season 1. The babies were killed in the first episode of Season 2. Aside from that, it wasn't even the kingsguard that carried that out. It was the gold cloaks who killed the babies.


I don't think those are the babies he was talking about.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, it was the Targaryan babies during the Baratheon coup.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Saw a blond Margaery Tyrell (Natalie Dormer) on the season finale of Elementary last night. Umm, she looked pretty cute/hot; but odd to see her in 21st century dress. 

I had a tough time hearing her speak with an American accent, but that was cured by the end of the episode (no spoilers). Elementary is one of my favs this season.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

It's up, and it's hilarious...
*
If Game Of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook: Season 3, Episode 7.*

http://www.happyplace.com/23906/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-7


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

astrohip said:


> It's up, and it's hilarious...
> *
> If Game Of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook: Season 3, Episode 7.*
> 
> http://www.happyplace.com/23906/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-7


Awesome Drummers You Can March To From Ser Phil Collins to Ser Neal Peart.

LOL! :up:


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

astrohip said:


> It's up, and it's hilarious...
> *
> If Game Of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook: Season 3, Episode 7.*
> 
> http://www.happyplace.com/23906/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-7


Fair warning, there is one NSFW (but oh so nice!) picture on that page.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

One of my favorites was this... subtle, but funny (look at the # of group members):


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## voripteth (Apr 9, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> The dragons always have a nice tray of cutlets, too.


A tiny nit to pick, but did we see the dragons gobble down raw meat? I thought they only ate cooked meat.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

audioscience said:


> No talk of Khaleesi yet?!?
> 
> This is the most we've seen of all three dragons in detail I feel. Drogon is the favored it seems. We almost never see the green dragon (Rhaegal).
> 
> What do folks think of Khaleesi going after Yunkai after she is offered ships? Sounds foolish, but will it be worth it to win over more slaves and a new city? Possibly more free slaves to fight for her?


Babe-raham Lincoln can't help herself.


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