# My 6th unit is now DEAD!!??



## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

I really don't get it, another unit dead??(my fifth or sixth?) This time I noticed all channels were not available, however the guide was showing all channels and descriptions. So I powered off the unit and all the channels were back... now I am watching a recorded show, no problems unil I notice the unit is totally unresponsive to the remote. Now the recored show is jerking and basically a slide showl. I try to get to the now playing or live TV, nothing. Call for tech help. This time after powering the unit off/on, it is totally stuck on "powering up". 
Ugh!!! not again!!!
They are sending a replacement in '2 business days' which imo means I won't have the unit until Monday.

So my dilema should I stay with D* and this buggy unit or should I try Adelphia and their HD DVR. I know it's not tive and I won't have OTA but still..... I am considering it. On the other hand, D* is still replacing this unit for me...

What to do??


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## Texceo (Mar 11, 2003)

Buggy? I am on my first and only unit. 

What are you doing to your units?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

I know there are some issues with this unit, but if you have 5 or 6 going bad, there must be something else going on (heat, power issues etc). I would think the odds of having that many go bad for the same person without some other factor would be nearly impossible. BTW, I have had 2 since they first came out and both are still running fine (with added drives too)


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## xnevergiveinx (Apr 5, 2004)

do you have surge protectors on your cable line, power, phone line?

the odds of you having 5 bad units in nearly impossible, seems like something else is going on


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

Sounds like the one you have now needs to have the hard drive replaced.

Replace the hard drive. Don't do the refurb swapout game with DIRECTV.

_On the other hand, D* is still replacing this unit for me..._
Yep, with another refurb that will flake out eventually.


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## lostman72 (Jul 12, 2003)

Both of my units are on a UPS and I have no trouble at all. My buddy had one go bad but he has no UPS. They are so cheap now. 50.00 to 100.00 buys a very nice UPS. Also both of my units are on it's own shelf so they won't over heat.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

Perhaps the shelf is vibrating and causing problems? Something is causing these failures, or you're really really unlucky.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I have two original units with no problems. Perhaps a power line conditioner or UPS. 5-6 failures definitely moves the blame from D* to some environmental condition at your house


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## Scott Corbett (May 29, 2003)

I am on my third one and it is flaky and should be replaced. So, you probably could really say that I should be on my fourth one. 

Have about forty surge suppressors in the house and three more on the panels outside. 

My old SAT-T60 just keeps on going. I am convinced that the HR10-250 is the worst consumer electronic product since the original Pioneer laser disc player. 

HDMI no longer functions so I switched to Component. Freezing and stuttering is the real problem.

I do not choose to go through D* phone hell again unless the unit fails completely (as my first two did). Maybe that "special" phone number they sent me would help, but I have my doubts about that.

I have subscribed to D* since '94 and was always fairly happy with them, but the HR10-250 has turned me around.


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## jfelbab (Jan 18, 2002)

Perhaps it's because they are sending you refurbished units that may not be truly fixed. I'd be sure to request a brand-spanking new unit this time.


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## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

litzdog911 said:


> Perhaps the shelf is vibrating and causing problems? Something is causing these failures, or you're really really unlucky.


I have the unit well ventilated, not enclosed. It is on a UPS with Auto voltage regulator.

Litz the only thing I can think of is what you said. Sometimes my wife (or myself) will close the entertainment center door, a little hard. Possible sending vibrations along the wood shelf and into the TV. My HR10-250 is sitting on top of my 57" Hitachi, the wall unit/Entertainment center is around the the tv. Could this be the problem?? hard to believe. Thinking of doing the weaknees hard drive replace, but then I think....


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## GBL (Apr 20, 2000)

Sitting on top of the TV may be too hot for the units.


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

You have a UPS so most likely a heat issue, especially since your on the 5th -6th unit. You say it is on top of the tv and the doors are closed sometimes on the entertainment center. The hd tivo is never really turned off so it always needs adequate air circulation/ventilation.

Alot of people think they have a unit well ventilated but really don't. dvr's seem to be much more sensitive to overheating then a regular computer where hard drives are concerned. and that leads to the different issues, jitters, glitches, skipping, freezing and complete failures.


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## 1999cobra (Nov 10, 2005)

Dude - 

I think your bewitched...!!!


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## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

Dssturbo1 said:


> You have a UPS so most likely a heat issue, especially since your on the 5th -6th unit. You say it is on top of the tv and the doors are closed sometimes on the entertainment center. The hd tivo is never really turned off so it always needs adequate air circulation/ventilation.
> 
> Alot of people think they have a unit well ventilated but really don't. dvr's seem to be much more sensitive to overheating then a regular computer where hard drives are concerned. and that leads to the different issues, jitters, glitches, skipping, freezing and complete failures.


There are no doors or anything around the unit. I check the temp sometimes and it's never 'hot' the entertainment center holds a denon avr, DVD player, music server, and Xbox 360, all enclosed. The HR10-250 is wide open on top of a large rearscreen projecction the hitatchi 57", nothing is surrounding it. alot of ventilation behind for the fans. I really don't think it's a heat issue. I am leaning to the when the door shutting on the main entertainment unit cause a vibration along to the tv and tivo. But seriously, no other piece of equipment I have, ie: two p4 networked computers, all the AVR equipment, and my wife D* standard tivo all work fine and no glitches.

I am still contemplating try the Adelphia HD DVR to see what happpens.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Use a little rational thought. It's you, your environment, or your TV.


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## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

just a quick update, I recv'd my replacement ( refurbed of course). Got it activated and withing 20 min unit rebooted twice. Finally got some live tv and all menus locked up... all black screen. Had to pull the power to reboot. Now it seems to be "working". I don't think it could be the environment that is causing this to happen... think about it the previous units work for 6-8 mos. this one immediately starts giving me problems. Well I called D* and demanded another unit (Brand New)... they said OK... I am hoping for the best.


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

Not saying this is your case but a long time ago we had a Mac IIsi that would randomly crash, every 30-40 mins. We'd take it into the shop and it would run for a week straight. bring it back to the office, crash, crash, back into shop, fine. Finally I told them to ship it all in, monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc.

Turns out the monitor had a short in it that was causing the Mac to crash heh. Totally wild.

So while it might not be your environment, everything the tivo is plugged into could be freaking it out, as it is just a computer.

A bad power strip that is overloading, or shorting. Maybe a circuit acting up, or a short when plugged into the receiver or TV. And yes whatever is the "issue" could not be affecting other equipment.

Heck even your phone line could be causing the issue.

I'd eliminate everything plugged into the tivo, plug in a different TV with a different cable and watch it. S ucks I know, but 6 or 7 of them, I'd be leery of really bad QA. Of course, you could just have very bad luck.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

I sure hope I am never on the same airplane as borgslayer. 

Actually, never being in the same state might not be a bad idea.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> I sure hope I am never on the same airplane as borgslayer.
> 
> Actually, never being in the same state might not be a bad idea.


LOL! 

sorry, borgslayer, this is funny.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

I'm not buying all these external factors posts. Maybe it's because my second HR10-250 is in the process of failing right now. Noticed problems last night. Merry Christmas. Logged on for some insights on what might be coming in the future aside from this piece of junk.

For the record, mine sits on an open shelf by itself with nothing on top of it. Internal temps always appear normal. It gets filtered power from a Monster Power AVS 2000 (perfect 120V) and a Monster Power HTS-5000 surge protector so I doubt I'm a victim of my power company.

I have an original stand-alone Tivo (1999) and a SD Philips DTV Tivo (2001) working perfectly in the same house.

I read rumors that DTV might be changing the MPEG coding so as to increase local HD channels and that my Tivos would no longer work. True? I ask because I'd hate to buy a new unit only to have it become obsolete in a year or so.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

There are 4 things to look at:

1) The HR10-250 (seems most people stop here, even after 6 failures - go figure)
2) The environment (temperature, humidity, power, etc.)
3) The TV (HDMI port, cables, etc.)
4) You (failed hacks, kicking it, etc.)

A high estimate is that about 10% have HDMI failures. Hard drive failures are more related to environment, and otherwise a very small percentage (less than 1% within a year). To think that one person could have even 2 failures based on just the HR10-250 is extremely unlikely (although possible). 

If you're above two failures, it's not the HR10-250, so start looking at options 2-4 above.

Or, keep complaining and demanding retribution.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> There are 4 things to look at:
> 
> 1) The HR10-250 (seems most people stop here, even after 6 failures - go figure)
> 2) The environment (temperature, humidity, power, etc.)
> ...


*IF* in fact this is true, than i completely agree with you, AbMagFab.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

borgslayer said:


> It is on a UPS with Auto voltage regulator.


Wacky behavior demands wachy theories, so here goes: perhaps your UPS is causing the problem. What model is it? I recall reading somewhere that cheap auto-voltage regulators can create transients on the line (because they switch the voltage in steps and don't necessarily do so at a zero-crossing). In any case maybe it's at least worth a try running without the UPS.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

Well, I'll say this - if I had that many failures, I sure wouldn't take a new one home and plug it into the same UPS that the other 5 died on.


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## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> I sure hope I am never on the same airplane as borgslayer.
> 
> Actually, never being in the same state might not be a bad idea.


that's funny!

but seriously... to address abmag... I have never hacked or modded any tivo. I am very carefull about the equipment. the only factor imo is enviro. but I do have high end equipment ie: ups and cables. so what I am left with is humidity or the tv or possible movement vibrations when someone closes the entertainment center door too hard. ( I am going with this one) but still it is frustrating.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

I have two HD TiVos and have needed quite a few replacements. One dead HDMI port, two that stuttered severely, one that lost satellite input and component output, and maybe some other issues I have forgotten by now. Finally add in a couple of replacements that stuttered out of the box. Everyone one of them was a brand new unit, as I also had to return quite a few refurbs they sent me.

It's not environment related as it was completely replaced (even the dish / multi-switch) along with swapping receivers from one location to the other. Oh, I also got charged a $1,000 each for two of them I returned. Which wasn't too bad since they only lost track of about 20% of my returns.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

AbMagFab said:


> There are 4 things to look at:
> ...
> 
> If you're above two failures, it's not the HR10-250, so start looking at options 2-4 above.
> ...


Nonsense. The HR10's are poorly designed, poorly QAed, and poorly supported. I've been through 4 of them, and it sure isn't my UPS or environment. Let's see - #1 had bad HDMI board connector (cracked solder joints), #2 had a dead tuner, right out of the box. #3 had exactly the same problem as #1, right out of the box. #4 is still running. Slowly.

While it's certainly suspicious that he's had that many failures, it's not a foregone conclusion that he hasn't gotten that many bad units, especially since the game DTV seems to be playing these days is to package up a returned unit and ship it out as a replacement, pretending it's a new unit, without even bothering to test it. That's what my #2 problem was... DTV said it was new, the box had no indication it was a refurb, but turns out it was a return. Apparently, they didn't even bother to turn it on before shipping it to me.


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## Starrbuck (Sep 29, 2003)

That's some terribly bad luck... or something. I've got two HR10-250s now and they both are fine. One is almost two years old and the second is over a year old.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

wje said:


> Nonsense. The HR10's are poorly designed, poorly QAed, and poorly supported. I've been through 4 of them, and it sure isn't my UPS or environment. Let's see - #1 had bad HDMI board connector (cracked solder joints), #2 had a dead tuner, right out of the box. #3 had exactly the same problem as #1, right out of the box. #4 is still running. Slowly.
> 
> While it's certainly suspicious that he's had that many failures, it's not a foregone conclusion that he hasn't gotten that many bad units, especially since the game DTV seems to be playing these days is to package up a returned unit and ship it out as a replacement, pretending it's a new unit, without even bothering to test it. That's what my #2 problem was... DTV said it was new, the box had no indication it was a refurb, but turns out it was a return. Apparently, they didn't even bother to turn it on before shipping it to me.


I'm not sure you're understanding. Most people have no problems at all. A few people have had one problem (too many for a consumer device, that's for sure). A very small number of people have repeated problems.

Of the folks that have repeated problems, most of them seem to have significantly repeated problems (4+). Simple observational disgnostics says to start looking at other factors.

Then again, simple observational diagnostics also says that this population (of 2+ issues) doesn't do any sort of simple diagnostics...


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## Stevoinga (Dec 14, 2005)

Make sure your Tivo is not on the same circuit as the Christmas tree, if your tree has lots of lights.

To the original poster....I would suggest getting an electrician to check your circuits. Are any other electrical components having an issue? Expecially check the plug where your Tivo/power strip is installed.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> Of the folks that have repeated problems, most of them seem to have significantly repeated problems (4+). Simple observational disgnostics says to start looking at other factors.
> 
> Then again, simple observational diagnostics also says that this population (of 2+ issues) doesn't do any sort of simple diagnostics...


With all due respect -- b*ll**** !!!

I suspect many people with multiple problems with THIS model are like me. ALWAYS look for problems, etc I may have caused before I blame the gear. As a life long stereo / HT hobbist with well over $100K invested in equipment I resent the armchair quarterbacks around here who have been lucky enough not to have problems (yet) assume that these problems are self-inflicted and that we haven't performed "simple diagnostics." Some of you are almost as bad as the idiot DTV techs that insist I change out my video cables when my unit is restarting itself every 10 mins. I'm still scratching my head over that one.

I operate from a dedicated 20 amp line with very good power conditioning. The other SD Tivo operating in the system under identical conditions continues to work perfectly amid these problems with the "250."

I understand this stuff VERY well. This unit is a POS. Period.


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## mx6bfast (Jan 2, 2004)

My replacement unit is on it's 411th day without a daily call.


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## Texceo (Mar 11, 2003)

Bighat why dont you atleast try and hook the new unit you get up with different cables different outlet and see what happenes?


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

Well the reformat of the current one's drives seems to be working for now. Jury's out on if and for how long it will hold up.

The unit worked fine for 8 months before suffering the same problem as the last one. The other TIVO in the system works perfectly. 

Why would I try different cables ???!!!! Please tell me. Do you believe in witchcraft of something???


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## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

I am the original poster of this thread, I don' t have any other "issues" with my standard D* Tivo or any other pieces of my HOme theatre. The only issues are with this unit. I put the unit on a expensive UPS backup after the first 2 units died. The replacement no.5, is buggy as hell. lockups, reboots, and has NO LOGOS!!!!!!



BigHat said:


> With all do respect -- b*ll**** !!!
> 
> This unit is a POS. Period.


 :up: :up:

If I hadn't dropped $1000 for this item, I would run to my local cable provider, but as long as D* keeps replacing these buggy units, I am trying to change power cables, outlets, but not changing componet cable.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

AbMagFab said:


> I'm not sure you're understanding. Most people have no problems at all. A few people have had one problem (too many for a consumer device, that's for sure). A very small number of people have repeated problems.
> 
> Of the folks that have repeated problems, most of them seem to have significantly repeated problems (4+). Simple observational disgnostics says to start looking at other factors.
> 
> Then again, simple observational diagnostics also says that this population (of 2+ issues) doesn't do any sort of simple diagnostics...


I guess I'm _not_ understanding. I, apparently like the original poster, know exactly what I'm doing, and I know how to diagnose problems. Please explain how "doesn't do any sort of simple diagnostics" equates with examining the pc boards in the unit and finding cracked solder joints? Twice? Or, having a dead tuner right out of the box? (Gee, that one took REALLY COMPLEX observational diagnostics, didn't it? Wow, I had to figure out how to swap two cables!)

Must be my no-doubt inadequate UPS sent a magic signal to the Fedex truck, which zapped the tuner, right in the box. Yep, gotta be my environment and lack of observational skills.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

wje said:


> I guess I'm _not_ understanding. I, apparently like the original poster, know exactly what I'm doing, and I know how to diagnose problems. Please explain how "doesn't do any sort of simple diagnostics" equates with examining the pc boards in the unit and finding cracked solder joints? Twice? Or, having a dead tuner right out of the box? (Gee, that one took REALLY COMPLEX observational diagnostics, didn't it? Wow, I had to figure out how to swap two cables!)
> 
> Must be my no-doubt inadequate UPS sent a magic signal to the Fedex truck, which zapped the tuner, right in the box. Yep, gotta be my environment and lack of observational skills.


I wish I could have expressed myself as well as you did.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

BigHat said:


> I wish I could have expressed myself as well as you did.


Thanks.

I've just gotten so fed up with DTV and the HR10 (which I was dumb enough to buy early, for $1k) that when someone starts babbling about how it must be _our_ fault that these poorly-built piles of junk are failing, I just snap. Actually, Ab has made a number of intelligent posts in the past. Must be someone at DTV hacked his login. Probably via his UPS.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

This thread might be played out.

If you are lucky enough to have a 250 that is working perfectly I extend best wishes. Please refrain, however, from pulling "advice" from you know where and passing it along to seasoned HT owners that haven't been as lucky as you.

Should, sadly, your "perfect" unit start acting up and you too need to deal with the DTV a-holes, let me just say...I feel your pain.


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## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

I am at least relieved to know I am not alone. I wish the HR10-250 had all the seas pass and other fave info stored on the card, so when it dies, it would be easier on me


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## shanew1289 (May 7, 2004)

Question #1

Do you have ABSOLUTE proof of the failure EACH time? I mean bad data from a hard drive could be BUS related, Controller, The cable, Noisy power from the power supply, a bad sector, and on and on and on...........

It seems dumb to get in this heated debate w/o absolute answers to the failures.

There must be some reason, and without diligent disection from EDUCATED, TRAINED, AND EXPIERIENCED technicians and engineers on the bench, NOONE will have an answer.

I repair things everyday and even the weirdest - stangest - most odd ball set of circumstances, they have a reason why they fail. I usually find that old units are bad capacitors or anything that gets warm. New units are typically bad construction (Faulty traces, solder joints) or Digital Chips and ESD. 

GL on # 6, but there is no reason to try and troubleshoot when Dtv is just gonna dump another in your lap. 

Seriously though, you could hit too many Buttons or have an IR blaster that is sending macros to oher units. Maybe it overflows an IR buffer on the HR10 and causes corrupt data that ends up getting written to the hard drive. O/S have buffer overrun problems ALL the time. Just a fully possible, oddball way that you could have problems when I dont.

GL!


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## flmgrip (Nov 26, 2003)

my 250 works great and when it or if it fails i will go straight to these guys: http://www.ccscorporation.net/

so what ? i pay a hundred bucks or so, but at least i don't have to deal with all the other crap. pic your battles. done.


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## Mike Tarlton (Dec 28, 2005)

I am on my first TIVO, a series 2 and it is dead, except for the fan. Does anyone know what the procedure is to get a TIVO repaired?


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## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

shanew1289 said:


> Question #1
> 
> Seriously though, you could hit too many Buttons or have an IR blaster that is sending macros to oher units. Maybe it overflows an IR buffer on the HR10 and causes corrupt data that ends up getting written to the hard drive. O/S have buffer overrun problems ALL the time. Just a fully possible, oddball way that you could have problems when I dont.
> 
> GL!


I am using a Harmony remote, could this be the problem???


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

borgslayer said:


> I am using a Harmony remote, could this be the problem???


Quite possibly, but only if you're powering the remote from your UPS.


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## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

bdlucas said:


> Quite possibly, but only if you're powering the remote from your UPS.


Is your posting supposed to be funny??

the remote is battery powered.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

borgslayer said:


> Is your posting supposed to be funny??


I'll let you be the judge of that.


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## borgslayer (Mar 28, 2004)

just so you know, the new harmony remotes are recharged via a recharger that is plugged into an outlet.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

Oh this is really getting good.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

BigHat said:


> Well the reformat of the current one's drives seems to be working for now. Jury's out on if and for how long it will hold up.
> 
> The unit worked fine for 8 months before suffering the same problem as the last one. The other TIVO in the system works perfectly.
> 
> Why would I try different cables ???!!!! Please tell me. Do you believe in witchcraft of something???


The POS finally died. The reset was good for 3 days. Lucky me, I get to deal with DTV. The first question will be is it plugged in. The second will be to check / change the f*cking cables. I wonder if that "special" contact number they sent me will matter. We'll see.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

BigHat said:


> The POS finally died. The reset was good for 3 days. Lucky me, I get to deal with DTV. The first question will be is it plugged in. The second will be to check / change the f*cking cables. I wonder if that "special" contact number they sent me will matter. We'll see.


If this is your first failure, that's unfortunate, but it happens with all consumer-electronic equipment, especially computers. If this is a multiple-failure, you might want to look at other potential causes.

Or you can just be angry.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> If this is your first failure, that's unfortunate, but it happens with all consumer-electronic equipment, especially computers. If this is a multiple-failure, you might want to look at other potential causes.
> 
> Or you can just be angry.


Idiots post often without reading the entire thread. That would be you. Thanks for a WORTHLESS post. Idiot.


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

One environmental issue that people might be forgetting is UPS. No, not the UPS it is plugged into, but United Parcel Service. 

Could it be that you guys have a really bad UPS (or FedEx) delivery driver who beats the crap out of your boxes before he delivers them? I am not saying that is the case, but one thing is for sure, if you are getting it delivered by the same guy every time, your box will probably be treated the same way every time. Maybe he drives down some bumpy road before he comes to your house (part of his route) and your box is really shaken up. However, the theory that they just keep shipping you refurb units that are just un-tested returns is probably the best one.

I would be pissed too if I had 6 failures in a row.

I am getting ready to order this from DirecTV, but I am hoping the installer brings it - maybe then it will be brand new. I'll ask when I call.

Bryan


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I'm glad my 3 HDTiVos are fine. The only rreason I had one replaced was because the HDMI port didn't work I had it 14 months before I tried it. 6 failures is definitely a problem. Maybe you should replace the WD drive. 6 failures seems to defy the odds.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

The anger management problem might also be an issue.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

BigHat said:


> The POS finally died. The reset was good for 3 days. Lucky me, I get to deal with DTV. The first question will be is it plugged in. The second will be to check / change the f*cking cables. I wonder if that "special" contact number they sent me will matter. We'll see.


Opted not to deal with DTV. Bought two formatted drives from Weaknees. I should get them on Weds. $ 769 spent, but for an additional $39 you can get a 24 month assurance that the drives won't fail or they'll be replaced for free.

I think we need to clarify some issues here. HDMI and tuner failures RIGHT OUT of the box are a quality assurance problem. These problems have been reported quite often and are most upsetting to me.

For those that like to chime in with comments they wouldn't make if they had read previous posts, I have had two hard drive failures each within a year of being new.

The units sit in open air on a 60 lb granite shelf to isolate vibration. Power is voltage regulated and filtered by the best Monster Power equipment available. Maybe it's not the best, but aside from the "250," no other Tivo and other piece of electronic equipment has suffered any damage from the dedicated power line that supports my HT system. I can visually monitor incoming voltage on the line and it's typically plus or minus .5 volts or less

I have not used a UPS, but have a spare one around and will run the Tivos on it in the future. I have to assume I've simply been the victim of bad drives.


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## turls (Feb 6, 2000)

BigHat said:


> I have not used a UPS, but have a spare one around and will run the Tivos on it in the future. I have to assume I've simply been the victim of bad drives.


Just think about it. Its a computer, so it should be on a UPS. Using no UPS, or a crappy "spare" one, is asking for trouble when you get those short 1-2 second outages. Your other HT equipment probably doesn't have hard drives.


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## inaka (Nov 26, 2001)

turls said:


> Just think about it. Its a computer, so it should be on a UPS. Using no UPS, or a crappy "spare" one, is asking for trouble when you get those short 1-2 second outages. Your other HT equipment probably doesn't have hard drives.


Then again, take the other approach. All of the previous six have been on a UPS and they have failed him. If I were him, the very first thing I would do would be to remove the UPS from the mix. Hell, it can't do any harm as one, two, three, four, five and now SIX units have failed via that UPS.

Then, I'd swap ALL cables. There could be a short in the cables causing an issue.

Then, I'd change the remote address on the unit just in case it's a remote related bug with another signal crossing things up somehow.

Then, I'd look to see if perhaps the TV is an issue. For example, I don't know how you have your HD Tivo hooked up, but if you have a non-HD Sony T-60 that has worked for years, it's obvious they are still hooked up via different connections. So for example, if your T60 was hooked up via S-Video or Composite, I would swap the connections for the TV input. If you currently have it connected via HDMI (or the HDMI to DVI connection) I would switch to component. If you have always had it hooked up via component, I would do the opposite and hook it up via HDMI/DVI.

Then, I move the box itself. Maybe it's too hot in the current spot, or it's too close to a surround sound speaker with a magnet or something that isn't properly shielded. Move the box.

Then, I would go to 7-11 and get a few lottery tickets. You have had some bad luck, you're due for a win anytime now.

Good luck.


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## jeffl-1 (Jul 12, 2004)

I am shocked to see posts still defending the hdtivo. Over the last two years (almost) I have read posts referring to constant problems with this pos. It is a lemon without a doubt. D* even refuses to support this thing. I have had a ton of Ht equipment and the tivo seems to have the most bugs by far.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

turls said:


> Just think about it. Its a computer, so it should be on a UPS. Using no UPS, or a crappy "spare" one, is asking for trouble when you get those short 1-2 second outages. Your other HT equipment probably doesn't have hard drives.


i'm gonna rock your world, turls. 

i have 5 computers, another 4 at my office, and 5 tv's and none of them are or have ever been on a ups. i also have a toshiba hdd dvd recorder that's almost 2 years old and countless audio/video receivers throughout the house that have never been on a ups.

all of them are working fine and have never had any problems.

god only knows how many computers, audio/video receivers and tv's i've had throughout my 47 years and none of them have ever failed me.

am i just really, really lucky or is the need of a ups extremely overrated?


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Overrated, in my opinion.

Just about all modern electronic equipment (including the HR10) uses switching power supplies. These can maintain output voltage over a very wide range of input voltages. That's why many switchers can operate here on 110V and overseas on 220V without any changes. What's my point? Brownouts and surges of a moderate level won't make it past the power supply. Most spikes won't, either.

What a UPS will do for you is protect against short outages, on the order of seconds to minutes, and any hefty power surge, such as a (distant) lightning strike on the power line. But, as I said, switchers are pretty resistant to impulse spikes, even pretty large ones.

All that said, I do have UPS's on my HR10, primary computer, and all the equipment in my lab. Why? So they'll keep running over short power outages, not to protect them. If you're paranoid, a UPS does provide extra protection, though.

Unless you (the original poster, lost in the distant past on this thread) have incredibly bad power, all this blather about the problem being the lack of a UPS is just that, blather. If other equipment isn't failing, the HR10 isn't failing because of power, either, unless it's a total piece of crap. Then again, given my experiences with HR10's, that could be the case. 

There are two real killers for equipment - heat and poor design. Be sure #1 isn't a problem, not much you can do about #2. What do you want for a $1000?, anyway?

One thing to check every now and then is the _internal_ temperature on the HR10. You can find it a page or two into the system info display. It appears that the software doesn't do any intelligent bad-block mapping on the disk drive. If you've got some bad blocks, you'll see the internal temp go up as the disk thrashes itself to death doing rereads. If you're consistently over 50c, start worrying.

Finally, because I'm sure some UPS zealot is going to flame mightily, yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I'm an EE, and I design and spec power supplies all the time. So, in advance, put a sock in it. My, I'm cranky this morning.


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## inaka (Nov 26, 2001)

jeffl said:


> I am shocked to see posts still defending the hdtivo. Over the last two years (almost) I have read posts referring to constant problems with this pos. It is a lemon without a doubt. D* even refuses to support this thing. I have had a ton of Ht equipment and the tivo seems to have the most bugs by far.


Many people who don't have problems with their units never post about them. I have two of them and they both work just fine, they are just slow as heck....other than that, they work like a charm.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

I am one of the lucky ones. I have 2 HR10-250's, one for 3 months and the other for almost 2 years. Neither has given me any problems at all, although I have only tested and not regularly used the HDMI on the older unit.

BigHat, your dilemma baffles me. It still seems like some external factor might play into this, but it sounds like all typical bases have been covered.

If the units have been shipped to you, maybe the shipper handling is an issue. Perhaps things get too hot, or get rough physical handling.

Do you live near salt water? In a high humidity area? Near any high-power radio or TV transmitters? Just exploring for any other outside factor.

I have no doubts about QA issues on these boxes, but it sure seems like an all or none scenario where some are trouble free and others are failure prone.

Good luck on your efforts to enjoy the benefits of trouble-free HD TiVo.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

Budget_HT said:


> I am one of the lucky ones. I have 2 HR10-250's, one for 3 months and the other for almost 2 years. Neither has given me any problems at all, although I have only tested and not regularly used the HDMI on the older unit.
> 
> BigHat, your dilemma baffles me. It still seems like some external factor might play into this, but it sounds like all typical bases have been covered.
> 
> ...


Hi.
To address your questions.

Maybe the shipper, but I doubt it. Boxes showed up looking fine. Units did run for a number of months before failing. Your question does spark a question I can't answer. Don't these drives park and lock when not being used in order to prevent disc/head contact?

I live is Arlington, VA. Not a salt water area in my view. Humidity gets high sometimes but unit basically lives in a constant 70 degree, 20-30 percent humidity environment year round. No radio antennas in close proximity.

I agree with the previous poster on the fragility of these power supplys, but lacked the formall EE degree I felt required to speak authoritarily on the point.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The benefit of putting a TiVo on a UPS is to protect the disk drive against the damage caused by a momentary dropout of power. Anyone who runs a computer lab can tell you that the power glitches that often accompany failures (or restoration of power) kill disk drives.

It is certainly true that the rest of the TiVo can deal ok with power dropouts. But the TiVo PS has a very small reserve and disk drives don't react well to power going out and then coming on less than a second later.

The subsidiary benefit is that you don't lose recordings in the 5-10 minutes it takes for the TiVo to restart.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Budget_HT said:


> I have no doubts about QA issues on these boxes, but it sure seems like an all or none scenario where some are trouble free and others are failure prone.


A previous poster had a plausible explanation for this: replacements are inadequately repaired refurbs or perhaps even on occasion "non-refurbs"  i.e. defective units recycled without repair. Purely conjecture of course.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

turls said:


> Just think about it. Its a computer, so it should be on a UPS. Using no UPS, or a crappy "spare" one, is asking for trouble when you get those short 1-2 second outages. Your other HT equipment probably doesn't have hard drives.


The spare I have is an APC 500. Do you have any advice on what's required? I'd think that for 2 Tivos the amperage required wouldn't be too high.

I have a large investment in my HT system and don't mind adding something that will help. That said, don't I need to be careful about chaining power control devices?

Right now outlet power is voltage regulated to 120V. That feeds a surge protector. Could that UPS be plugged in to the AVM or the surge protector w/o problems?


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## jeffl-1 (Jul 12, 2004)

inaka said:


> Many people who don't have problems with their units never post about them. I have two of them and they both work just fine, they are just slow as heck....other than that, they work like a charm.


I have to disagree with your statement and I understand it has been said here many times. Many people seek out this forum for problems related to the Tivo. Everyday there are posts about quality issues whether it be about hdmi or stutters and even failure. My neighbor that worked for Hughes building these stbs warned me about purchasing the unit. He stated that they were made cheaply and quickly. These were the first hundred or so made in MD. At the very beginning he told me about the hdmi issues. To say that most people don't have some issues with the tivo is not accurate.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

First, do not plug a surge protector into the battery-backed-up outlet of a UPS - it can damage the UPS should it go to battery. This is more an issue with the inexpensive models than those with AVR or "true sine wave" output.

A 500VA model is fine for a TiVo and will run it for more than an hour, typically.

As for reliability of the HR10-250 - I've had mine a month so far and no problems.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

wje said:


> Finally, because I'm sure some UPS zealot is going to flame mightily, yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I'm an EE, and I design and spec power supplies all the time. So, in advance, put a sock in it. My, I'm cranky this morning.


See, people who know too much, often miss the obvious. The point of the UPS is to prevent low power/power outages. Far more damage can be done by just removing power, especially to computers. Hard drive heads, while designed for this, don't like it. Same with the platters. And low power is far worse than removing power.

Sure, the power supplies can deal with some spikes, but a UPS keeps power relatively even, including low/no power. The best power supply can't do squat if it doesn't have enough power coming in.

Also, your aggressive comments on the HR10 indicate you're probably just another angry guy.

If you, the OP, others, are having multiple failures, you've got another problem. You're darn lucky DirecTV just keeps sending you new ones.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> See, people who know too much, often miss the obvious. The point of the UPS is to prevent low power/power outages. Far more damage can be done by just removing power, especially to computers. Hard drive heads, while designed for this, don't like it. Same with the platters. And low power is far worse than removing power.
> 
> Sure, the power supplies can deal with some spikes, but a UPS keeps power relatively even, including low/no power. The best power supply can't do squat if it doesn't have enough power coming in.
> 
> ...


Your opining about what he means vs. what he actually said is insulting to the members of this forum. I have gone back and read your posts. You should too !! You have added NO value to the discussion.

You accuse us of being "angry." Speaking for me only -- I'm not an angry person. I just don''t suffer fools well. Thus my problem with you.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

jeffl said:


> I have to disagree with your statement and I understand it has been said here many times. Many people seek out this forum for problems related to the Tivo. Everyday there are posts about quality issues whether it be about hdmi or stutters and even failure. My neighbor that worked for Hughes building these stbs warned me about purchasing the unit. He stated that they were made cheaply and quickly. These were the first hundred or so made in MD. At the very beginning he told me about the hdmi issues. To say that most people don't have some issues with the tivo is not accurate.


yes but how many happy users _don't_ post here because they don't have any problems, jeff?


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

joetoronto said:


> yes but how many happy users _don't_ post here because they don't have any problems, jeff?


This same argument is used in every forum I visit. Cars, A/V gear, watches etc. While many people visit a site to investigate problems, many more are just fans interested in the gear and would offer their positive and negative experiences.

For example, there were thousands of posts on this unit before it even came out. How can you attribute that to problem solvers only?

Society is getting more and more computer savvy. Those folks are here with good or bad experiences.

You make it sound like every problem gets reported. Let me ask why this point is less legitimate than yours: My HD Tivo doesn't work. I want a new one and called DTV. I don't care why it doesn't work anymore so why go looking on websites as to why.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

BigHat said:


> This same agrument is used in every forum I visit. Cars, A/V gear, watches etc. While many people visit a site to investigate problems, many more are just fans interested in the gear and would offer their positive and negative experiences.
> 
> For example, there were thousands of posts on this unit before it even came out. How can you attribute that to problem solvers only?
> 
> ...


with all due respect, BigHat, the posts _before the unit came out_ don't count to me.

as far as i know, directv sold a hell of a lot of these units. i've been up and down this forum and others and even if i counted all the people that complained and multiplied that number 100 times, it still wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of units sold.

what's your guess on the percentage of bad units sold?


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

joetoronto said:


> with all due respect, BigHat, the posts _before the unit came out_ don't count to me.
> 
> as far as i know, directv sold a hell of a lot of these units. i've been up and down this forum and others and even if i counted all the people that complained and multiplied that number 100 times, it still wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of units sold.
> 
> what's your guess on the percentage of bad units sold?


Well I guess one of us is missing the point. I simply cited the wide participation early on as an indication that a statistically significant sample of owners are here -- with or without problems.

I can only guess on the failure rate to be honest. I have read that those of us that purchased the initial production with Western Digital drives had a huge failure rate.

Here's a post on the subject: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3630730#post3630730

"The original HR10-250's came with a Western Digital 250GB drive. From what I've seen and heard, almost all of them have crashed within a year..........Mine died after about 6 months, which gave me the perfect excuse to upgrade "

If you were to include tuners / HDMI cards (how many people never even checked this?) / and drives I'd bet they've had a 25% - 30% failure rate minimum.


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## joetoronto (Jul 26, 2004)

BigHat said:


> Well I guess one of us is missing the point. I simply cited the wide participation early on as an indication that a statistically significant sample of owners are here -- with or without problems.
> 
> I can only guess on the failure rate to be honest. I have read that those of us that purchased the initial production with Western Digital drives had a huge failure rate.
> 
> ...


wow, if that's true than hell ya, that's NOT normal.


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## turls (Feb 6, 2000)

BigHat said:


> The spare I have is an APC 500. Do you have any advice on what's required? I'd think that for 2 Tivos the amperage required wouldn't be too high.
> 
> I have a large investment in my HT system and don't mind adding something that will help. That said, don't I need to be careful about chaining power control devices?
> 
> Right now outlet power is voltage regulated to 120V. That feeds a surge protector. Could that UPS be plugged in to the AVM or the surge protector w/o problems?


I think Stevel's answer was pretty good. I don't have a square-wave UPS on mine, but I've got a pretty powerful one as I have some other devices besides the HD Tivo on mine (Xbox, DLP TV (don't want undue stress on the bulb)).


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## turls (Feb 6, 2000)

I was commenting on BigHat's not using a UPS. Yes, remove the 6 failure UPS from the mix for the OP or try a different one is pretty obvious.



inaka said:


> Then again, take the other approach. All of the previous six have been on a UPS and they have failed him. If I were him, the very first thing I would do would be to remove the UPS from the mix. Hell, it can't do any harm as one, two, three, four, five and now SIX units have failed via that UPS.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

turls said:


> I think Stevel's answer was pretty good. I don't have a square-wave UPS on mine, but I've got a pretty powerful one as I have some other devices besides the HD Tivo on mine (Xbox, DLP TV (don't want undue stress on the bulb)).


I'll either buy a new battery for the APC 500 or something new. For the power needed it looks like $200-$300 would cover it. Concur?
Can you expand on the square-wave UPS a bit?


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## turls (Feb 6, 2000)

I should have said mine IS square-wave. That doesn't mimic normal AC power, which is a SIN wave. SIN wave UPS are more expensive, but mimic AC power better. If I had a lot of trouble with dead devices on a square-wave one, I'd probably try something a little fancier at some point.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

AbMagFab said:


> See, people who know too much, often miss the obvious. The point of the UPS is to prevent low power/power outages. Far more damage can be done by just removing power, especially to computers. Hard drive heads, while designed for this, don't like it. Same with the platters. And low power is far worse than removing power.
> 
> Sure, the power supplies can deal with some spikes, but a UPS keeps power relatively even, including low/no power. The best power supply can't do squat if it doesn't have enough power coming in.
> 
> ...


My, we seem to be arguing a lot lately. Interesting point of view. So, if I actually know what I'm talking about, that means I'm wrong?

If you'd actually read my post, you'd note that I said switchers can handle low power just fine. Of course, it depends upon just how low. But typically, anything that the power company throws your way that isn't an actual dropout doesn't faze most switchers. You might also consider that most consumer UPS's don't do squat for low voltage, unless it goes below their cutover voltage. 80-90 volts is typical. They just sit there until their high/low threshold is reached, then they take over, but not instantaneously. Read the specs and look for 'transfer time'. Usually it's a few 10's of milliseconds.

As for hard drive heads 'not liking' power off, that's just plain nonsense. All hard drives have landing zones, head retracting logic, and a bunch of other sophisticated stuff to handle just that. Given your logic, you'd have to leave your notebook running all the time. Don't know about you, but mine gets turned on and off every day, and has worked for far longer than the HR10's I've had.

As for being angry, you bet. If you remember from my early posts in this thread, I'm on #4, and absolutely none of the failures were because of mysterious occurences; they were all because of faulty manufacturing and nonexistent quality control. I'm now convinced you're actually on the DTV payroll. If you're so convinced that the problem is mine, please explain the 2 HDMI failures from manufacturing defects, and one dead tuner _right out of the box?_


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

turls said:


> I should have said mine IS square-wave. That doesn't mimic normal AC power, which is a SIN wave. SIN wave UPS are more expensive, but mimic AC power better. If I had a lot of trouble with dead devices on a square-wave one, I'd probably try something a little fancier at some point.


All but the cheapest UPS's these days are at least fake sine wave. (the fakes use a stepped square wave that approximates a sine wave. Think staircase.)

Even the square wave UPS's are generally just fine if the devices they're backing up have switching power supplies. Switchers immediately convert their input to DC anyway, so it doesn't make a whole lot of difference what the input looks like. The HR10's have a switching supply.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

wje said:


> All but the cheapest UPS's these days are at least fake sine wave. (the fakes use a stepped square wave that approximates a sine wave. Think staircase.)
> 
> Even the square wave UPS's are generally just fine if the devices they're backing up have switching power supplies. Switchers immediately convert their input to DC anyway, so it doesn't make a whole lot of difference what the input looks like. The HR10's have a switching supply.


Ab *** Mab,
Isn't it time to tell him he knows too much again?


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

BigHat said:


> Ab *** Mab,
> Isn't it time to tell him he knows too much again?


Yes, and it's about time for me to tell yAb he's on the DTV payroll again.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

wje said:


> Yes, and it's about time for me to tell yAb he's on the DTV payroll again.


Well, he fits the profile of a DTV employee. Never right, never in doubt.


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## flmgrip (Nov 26, 2003)

you only hear about the bad stuff and units. there are plenty of happy user out there. i am one of them. i had the same when i bought a sony GWIII two years ago. there was hundreds of page of people whining about the tv having problems al the time... mine is still going strong and so will my 10-250... some have bad luck and some incorrect handling might not help... but the 10-250 is anything but a pos. it works great for me.

i feel sorry though for the op about all the problems he has


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## Compu Doc (Jan 1, 2006)

borgslayer said:


> I am the original poster of this thread, I don' t have any other "issues" with my standard D* Tivo or any other pieces of my HOme theatre. The only issues are with this unit. I put the unit on a expensive UPS backup after the first 2 units died. The replacement no.5, is buggy as hell. lockups, reboots, and has NO LOGOS!!!!!!
> 
> :up: :up:
> 
> If I hadn't dropped $1000 for this item, I would run to my local cable provider, but as long as D* keeps replacing these buggy units, I am trying to change power cables, outlets, but not changing componet cable.


 So you have this unit sitting on a big screen TV?. Ever think of moving the Tivo unit to somewhere else?

I am surprised that no one had mentioned anything about a magnetic field. A huge set like that has to have one heck of a magnetic field and that could be causing your problems.

Hard drives and magnetic fields do not mix. Its one sure way to wipe out a drive completely in seconds.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The stepped square wave output is fine for powering a TiVo. The problem is if you have a MOV-protected surge suppressor that is fed by the stepped square wave. There are lots of harmonics in this output that will cause the MOV to shunt current and possibly damage the output stage of the UPS. APC, at least, explicitly warns against such connections in the manuals I have read.

If you need more outlets, use a standard power strip without surge suppression.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

wje said:


> My, we seem to be arguing a lot lately. Interesting point of view. So, if I actually know what I'm talking about, that means I'm wrong?


Nope. But you might overlook something obvious.


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## inaka (Nov 26, 2001)

jeffl said:


> I have to disagree with your statement and I understand it has been said here many times. Many people seek out this forum for problems related to the Tivo. Everyday there are posts about quality issues whether it be about hdmi or stutters and even failure. My neighbor that worked for Hughes building these stbs warned me about purchasing the unit. He stated that they were made cheaply and quickly. These were the first hundred or so made in MD. At the very beginning he told me about the hdmi issues. *To say that most people don't have some issues with the tivo is not accurate.*


Great, so you're basing your post on the first 100 or so units which are long LONG off the shelves. Yawn, what a meaningless debate that can't be proven. To say that most people HAVE issues with the hd tivo is not accurate as well. Enjoy.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

Compu Doc said:


> So you have this unit sitting on a big screen TV?. Ever think of moving the Tivo unit to somewhere else?
> 
> I am surprised that no one had mentioned anything about a magnetic field. A huge set like that has to have one heck of a magnetic field and that could be causing your problems.
> 
> Hard drives and magnetic fields do not mix. Its one sure way to wipe out a drive completely in seconds.


True, but unless his TV is a CRT, there's no magnetic field. LCD and plasma displays don't use magnetic deflection. Even with a CRT, the field strength isn't likely to be strong enough to affect a disk, unless the degausser is active.


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