# Tivo Series3: Availability 9/17/2006 @ $799 MSRP?



## bkdtv

_First posted on AVS Forum by MK153..._



> I work at Best Buy and it popped up in our system today - its "In-Stock" date is 9/17/2006 with a Best Buy SKU of 7974418 (UPC of 400079744186 and Model TCD648250B).
> 
> The price is $799.99
> 
> Thought all of you would like to know - That "In-Stock" date is for our warehouses - the "Street Date" field is left blank - but I am guessing "Coming Soon" is really damn soon.


If there is a rebate, it's not accounted for in the $799 price. We can hope.

Keep in mind this is MSRP. Very few products sell for full MSRP once they are available from the likes of Amazon.com and Buy.com.

Update #1: Best Buy's cost for the Series3 is about $500, so discounts off $799 are definitely possible.

Update #2: Pictures of shipping Series3 and Series3 Retail Box

*Update #3: Customers will be able to transfer lifetime subscriptions from their S1/S2 to the Series3 for $199. This offer also includes a free year of service on the old Tivo. Limited time offer -- only valid on Series3 purchases made through December 31, 2006.*


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## ZeoTiVo

any word on rebates ? I actually doubt there will be one at first anyhow though.


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## matthewwhite

The UPC is a dummy range that is never assigned to products but for internal use only.

My guess is that it's a fake.


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## TiVo Troll

Maybe it's close to the time when an official TiVo guy says hi, and spills the beans!

If Series 3 is going to be offered from TiVo with TiVo's usual 30 day return for a full refund policy I'm going to get one just to personally evaluate it firsthand!

I'll be out of town until September 20, so there's a good possibility that I'll have to wait until Series 3's initial orders get taken care of first.


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## jfh3

matthewwhite said:


> The UPC is a dummy range that is never assigned to products but for internal use only.
> 
> My guess is that it's a fake.


Yes, it's a fake. By design.

From the UPC code database:

"Dummy (number system 4) UPCs are for private use. This means anybody (typically a retailer) that needs to assign a UPC to an item that doesn't already have one, can use any number system 4 UPC it chooses. Most importantly, they can know that by doing so, they won't pick one that may already be used. So, such a UPC can and does mean something different depending on who you ask, and there's no reason to try to keep track of what products these correspond to."

All that means to me is that Best Buy may have entered a SKU for the Series 3 with a dummy UPC code until they get the real thing ...


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## dylanursula

WOW! $800..... that prob $300 more then i am willing to pay 
Oh well, Comcast Tivo it is


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## Toeside

$799 is too much for us, too. Here's hoping the real price is much less.


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## Stanley Rohner

Why are you WOW! about it costing $800 ?

The High-Def DIRECTiVo was about $999 when it first came out.

$799 sounds like a bargain to me considering what it will do.


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## Turtleboy

Anyone remember how much the original 14 hour Tivo cost?


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## Bierboy

I agree that $799 is right in the range I expected.


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## TiVotion

Well, if MSRP is $799, that would likely make the "street price" somewhat lower. But if Best Buy's inventory price is actually $799 and that IS the actual retail price, I'd have to say I'd be unwilling to shell out $800 for this thing. That amount of cash would go a long way towards purchasing an entire new TV. $500 I'd probably do with little reservation, but that's just too much out of the box.

I was short sighted enough to lay out $800 for the Pioneer DVD recorder with TiVo when that first came out, and in retrospect that device simply hasn't turned out to be worth it.


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## jfh3

TiVotion said:


> I was short sighted enough to lay out $800 for the Pioneer DVD recorder with TiVo when that first came out, and in retrospect that device simply hasn't turned out to be worth it.


Early adoptors always pay a premium price.

$799, if true, is a little disappointing, but not totally surprising or unexpected.


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## dig_duggler

It's going to be tough to make a dent at the price. I love tivo and have introduced it to many people, but that's too much for an average consumer. Especially when you consider the cable company (however inferior they might be) alternatives. 

Maybe it will get to under $600 after rebates, but honestly who wants to screw with those Tivo rebates anymore...


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## jfh3

dig_duggler said:


> It's going to be tough to make a dent at the price. I love tivo and have introduced it to many people, but that's too much for an average consumer.


Don't forget that the Series 3 wasn't designed with the "average consumer" in mind.


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## dig_duggler

_Don't forget that the Series 3 wasn't designed with the "average consumer" in mind._

Maybe that's why the company is doing so well....


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## Bierboy

dig_duggler said:


> ...that's too much for an average consumer....


TiVo has been VERY clear in its target audience for this product. It's NOT the average consumer; it's the high end clientele they have in their sights.

EDIT -- Ooops, double smeek !


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## Bierboy

BTW, I'd be REAL careful assuming this guy is, indeed, a BB employee. He only has eight posts listed in the AVSForum. And I'm sure some folks would LOVE to have the rumor mill swing into overdrive.


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## TiVotion

I'm taking that he could be an actual BB employee with a grain of salt, but of course this "news" will now spread like wildfire. 

The price tag still wouldn't surprise me, though. I'm disappointed if it's true, but it still wouldn't surprise me.

What sucks in my case is that I have a Pioneer 810H unit hooked up to a 42" HDTV, and frankly the picture quality sucks (on standard channels). When I switch to direct HDTV input bypassing the Pioneer, the picture looks great. I'd been assuming that the S3 would alleviate this problem, but at that price point I'll just have to wait.


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## jsmeeker

If it IS true, the price is in the ball park of what I was expecting. Sadly, I can't afford to enter that park at this time.


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## mfogarty5

MK153 has updated his post over there.

"I know all of you want more details... so here is all the random crap you could want.

The dimensions of the box are 15.6inX19.4inX6.75in and it is a whopping 15.4lbs (This is the package - not the Tivo).

Its Out Of Stock date (when we are scheduled to clearance it out) is 9/17/2020

Here is an intresting tid-bit - the warranty is 1yr parts and 90 days labor.

Not a single Best Buy warehouse has one."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8300149&&#post8300149


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## 1283

The current rebate program ends 9/16, so release date of 9/17 makes sense.


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## Dan203

Turtleboy said:


> Anyone remember how much the original 14 hour Tivo cost?


When TiVos first hit the market they were $999 for a 14 hour unit and $1299 for a 30 hour unit. They quickly dropped to $699 and $999 respectively. Then $499 and $699, and then at the one year after release mark came down to $299 and $399. That's when I finally broke down and bought one.

I plan to buy a Seires 3 on day one, even if I do have to pay $800. If I can get it for a slight discount at Amazon.com, plus the $150 rebate, then I'll buy two right away. If not I might wait a few weeks for the second one.

Dan


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## skanter

I plan to be a -late adaptor- to the S3.

 

Price will have to come way down before I trade-in my free SA 8300HD box.


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## Lenonn

I'd consider spending the $800 if it got me a free year of service with it.   But, if that price is true, I'll need to think about it quite a bit. I want, I need one, with the new HD tv, but - it's a little much for my wallet.

However, that's what credit cards are for.


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## Dan203

A years worth of service, at $12.95, is only $155.40. So if they have the normal $150 rebate then that's just like getting a years worth of free service.

Dan


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## drew2k

Dan203 said:


> A years worth of service, at $12.95, is only $155.40. So if they have the normal $150 rebate then that's just like getting a years worth of free service.
> 
> Dan


I usually rationalize making large purchases by looking at the monthly cost as if I had a year to pay it off with no interest.

At $799.99 plus tax, the S3 would be around $73/month for me, excluding any rebate. With $150 rebate, it's $60/month.

After I add on the service cost, that's either $85/month or $72/month.

I would turn in my Cablevision SA8300HD box, saving $15/month and bringing my monthly cost to $70 or $58 month for the first year.

That's borderline on my personal scale, so I'll probably wait a couple of months to read reviews, and then be a "slightly-later-than-early" adopter.

If reviews are positive and there are no issues receiving QAM HD channels without a cable card, I may "adopt" a littler earlier ...


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## jb007

Wonder how much the add-on external hard drive is going to run?


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## Dan203

If they allow any drive to be used then you'll be able to get an eSATA enclosure for about $30 and a decent size hard drive on sale for about $100. If they require a specific brand, or their own, I'm guessing it'll be a $200+ add-on.

Dan


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## maki

What I want to know is if there'll be a package deal and how much that'll run...


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## jfh3

pvrblog is also reporting an announcement date the previous Tuesday, with first availability on tivo.com:

http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2006/08/wild_rumor_seri.html

Seems reasonable, if the Best Buy info is true.


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## MickeS

I  told everyone here about this date before... 

This is great news, if true! I just wish I would've found out a week ago - I just spent my "extra money" on something else. 

But I might try and get one of these anyway.... I really, really want one. And this was the price range that they announced before... although I was originally not willing to pay that much, it becomes a different matter when it's not hypothetical anymore.


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## stantonl

800 bucks is cheaper than I expected for the Series 3. I'll probably pick up one after I hear some people review it here and see how well it works. I guess I need to inquire about how much cable cards will cost from my cable company.


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## bicker

$799 was exactly what I thought they were going to charge. Too rich for me, at least as long as the spectre of SDV looms.


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## sbiller

drew2k said:


> I usually rationalize making large purchases by looking at the monthly cost as if I had a year to pay it off with no interest.
> 
> At $799.99 plus tax, the S3 would be around $73/month for me, excluding any rebate. With $150 rebate, it's $60/month.
> 
> After I add on the service cost, that's either $85/month or $72/month.
> 
> I would turn in my Cablevision SA8300HD box, saving $15/month and bringing my monthly cost to $70 or $58 month for the first year.
> 
> That's borderline on my personal scale, so I'll probably wait a couple of months to read reviews, and then be a "slightly-later-than-early" adopter.
> 
> If reviews are positive and there are no issues receiving QAM HD channels without a cable card, I may "adopt" a littler earlier ...


Maybe I'm missing something but if you amortize the useful lifespan of the series 3 at $800 over 3 years (36 months), then that is a monthly outlay of approximately $22 per month. If you add the $6.95 per month fee for a multiple TiVo household (like me) that brings the outlay to $30/month. I will consider it when its down to about $20/month over three years which means a street price of approximately $13x36=$468.


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## George Cifranci

jb007 said:


> Wonder how much the add-on external hard drive is going to run?


I wonder if this new 500GB Seagate eSata drive will work...

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/08/24/seagate_500_gb_external_hard_drive_goes_esata/

It is around $260-$280.


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## bicker

sbiller said:


> drew2k said:
> 
> 
> 
> I usually rationalize making large purchases by looking at the monthly cost as if I had *a year* to pay it off with no interest.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something but if you amortize the useful lifespan of the series 3 at $800 over 3 years (36 months),
Click to expand...

Drew rationalizes large purchases with a one year horizon, not a three year horizon. That's a typical, conservative perspective, for something where you're not absolutely sure you'll get full value out of it over a longer period of time. For all I know now, my cable company could render my purchase of a Series 3 useless, by moving my favorite channels to SDV. While they almost surely won't do so within the next six months, I think they perhaps will within the next three years.

My wife is a bit more optimistic (I suspect because either she trusts Comcast more than Time-Warner, or simply doesn't know much about SDV). She, like you, has a price-point of about $500 for the Series 3 (because our threshold for the device is about $35 per month, including service fees). For me, the price would have to come down to about $350-$400, because my current risk profile would have me peg that I could get maybe 15-18 months out of the device.


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## nhaigh

$800 - no problem, it's $200 less than I was prepared to go. I'll buy a Harmony 880 with what I have saved.


Where do I sign up?


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## sbiller

bicker said:


> Drew rationalizes large purchases with a one year horizon, not a three year horizon. That's a typical, conservative perspective, for something where you're not absolutely sure you'll get full value out of it over a longer period of time. For all I know now, my cable company could render my purchase of a Series 3 useless, by moving my favorite channels to SDV. While they almost surely won't do so within the next six months, I think they perhaps will within the next three years.
> 
> My wife is a bit more optimistic (I suspect because either she trusts Comcast more than Time-Warner, or simply doesn't know much about SDV). She, like you, has a price-point of about $500 for the Series 3 (because our threshold for the device is about $35 per month, including service fees). For me, the price would have to come down to about $350-$400, because my current risk profile would have me peg that I could get maybe 15-18 months out of the device.


Excellent points. Another factor which I'll throw into the equation is the fact that I'm paying Brighthouse $17.00/month for their crappy SA8300HD PVR. Once I find out the cost of getting the cablecards from Brighthouse I can do a more accurate comparison. As far as the time horizon goes, I've gotten a lot more use out of my Series 1 & Series 2 PVRs then the 3 year break-even point. Like you, I am a bit concerned about the impacts of SDV on the analysis.


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## VinceA

$800 is about what I expected for a Day 1 price. I'll probably wait a bit to see what happens (and to save up) but I'll probably get one to replace my Series 2 (140 model).


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## Bierboy

This whole discussion about the price point is fascinating. I've been saving money for the S3 for a year and a half now (and I suspect many of you have been socking away some cash as well). I have exactly $800 right now, stashed in a drawer for this. By my logic, if it comes in at the $799 price point, mine is already bought with not another penny out of my pocket.  BRING IT ON


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## rainwater

If its $800 at retail, that means the Tivo.com price with the service contract will be much less. So it will not be as much upfront costs for everyone. It all depends on how the MSD will work with S3.


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## jlb

A couple of thoughts. Though it may be fake, does anyone think it was a fake floated by TiVo to gauge price sensitivity?

Also, if it were $799 retail, don't forget Best Buy is in the midst (and probably will still be then) of their typical buy X for $499 (not sure of the number, but whatever) and get interest free financing for 24 months. Or something similar. That makes it easier to do than paying up front.

I don't have HD or an HDTV yet, but I was considering getting a S3 depending on price (you know...future thinking). But even with what I said above about BB financing, I would likely hold off and see what comes of ComcasTiVo.


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## stevel

$800 is right where I expected the price to hit. And Pony told me that anyone's eSATA drive should work (I asked him this specific question at the con.)


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## Squeege96

Zoinks! $800 Bones? That is a little steep. Funny how quickly people have eaten up this information though.

I'll probably dive in though, depending on what kind of rebates are involved. ($600 seems like a VERY reasonable number to sell to my wife...) :up:


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## cwoody222

$800's too rich for me 

Oh well.


I don't understand this "it's not for the average consumer". However... cable DVRs that do HD ARE. So what's TiVo hoping to achieve here? A few sales on a niche product? It'll die on the vine that way...


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## Tippy

I'm in. I'll gladly dump my SA 8300. Extra money from a teaching job this semester will smooth the way for the wife to sign off. I just hope I don't have any MRV transfer issues for the SD content to my other SD units.


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## cbordman

Stanley Rohner said:


> Why are you WOW! about it costing $800 ?
> 
> The High-Def DIRECTiVo was about $999 when it first came out.
> 
> $799 sounds like a bargain to me considering what it will do.


I didn't buy that device either..


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## classicX

Turtleboy said:


> Anyone remember how much the original 14 hour Tivo cost?


No offense, but we're in a different time than when the first Tivo came out. First generation technology is ALWAYS comparatively more expensive then their more powerful and more capable "children."

I remember paying $2300 for a 333Mhz Pentium system about 8 or 9 years ago. Now I can spend less thatn $1000 for a 3Ghz system. 10 times the power, less than half of the price.

I don't image that $799 would be the real cost, but if it is, you can count me out. I would need to buy two and $1600 for Tivo service vs. the two cable DVRs I have now that do basically the same thing would be a gross misuse of funds in my opinion.

Here's a idea: instead of using a credit card, try taking the money out in cash, and count it out at the cashier. If you don't say to yourself "wow, this is a LOT of money to watch TV" then by all means, proceed. If it begins to look like you could do better things with that money, then you probably aren't making the wisest decision.


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## drew2k

bicker said:


> Drew rationalizes large purchases with a one year horizon, not a three year horizon. That's a typical, conservative perspective, for something where you're not absolutely sure you'll get full value out of it over a longer period of time.


 :up:

Thanks. You pretty much summed up what my answer would have been!


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## drew2k

cwoody222 said:


> I don't understand this "it's not for the average consumer". However... cable DVRs that do HD ARE. So what's TiVo hoping to achieve here? A few sales on a niche product? It'll die on the vine that way...


I agree with you. I also wonder where those who say TiVo announced this is not for the average consumer got their info from. Is it on TiVo's web site somewhere? In FCC filings? Where and when did TiVo announce that the S3 is for the above-average or high-end consumer? Wouldn't shareholders be a little upset at that, as shouldn't TiVo be marketing to the masses, and not just the technophiles?


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## Bierboy

I just checked the Crutchfield Web site (for any possible mentione of the S3), and it now appears that they no longer carry TiVo products. When did this happen?


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## dig_duggler

_I don't understand this "it's not for the average consumer". However... cable DVRs that do HD ARE. So what's TiVo hoping to achieve here? A few sales on a niche product? It'll die on the vine that way..._

Exactly. Your direct competition is appealing to the average consumer. Unless that price falls fast, you are not going to have many holiday sales.

I consider myself an above average consumer if you will. But that's even too much for me. And when you take into account the latest software, the headaches with the rebates, what's my real motivation to take a chance here? Not to mention how ill prepared I imagine most cable companies are for cable cards...

It's a premium price for a muddy waters situation.


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## ZeoTiVo

dig_duggler said:


> _I don't understand this "it's not for the average consumer". However... cable DVRs that do HD ARE. So what's TiVo hoping to achieve here? A few sales on a niche product? It'll die on the vine that way..._
> 
> Exactly. Your direct competition is appealing to the average consumer. Unless that price falls fast, you are not going to have many holiday sales.
> 
> I consider myself an above average consumer if you will. But that's even too much for me. And when you take into account the latest software, the headaches with the rebates, what's my real motivation to take a chance here? Not to mention how ill prepared I imagine most cable companies are for cable cards...
> 
> It's a premium price for a muddy waters situation.


TiVo can not compete directly with a leased device from the cable company. That is why they add the many features like TiVoToGo, MRV, Kid Zone etc.. and look to compete on being a better product that justifies the larger price. There has not been an HD DVR like this on the market yet. Sony had something but it did not have all the TiVo features. Many people complained about the 999$ price of the HD DirectTiVo but they went off the shelf and it was hard to find one to buy. Slowly over time the price went down to about 350$ today. Why is it a mystery that the S3 will do the same thing and is indeed trying very hard to not look like a direct competitor to a leased HD DVR from the cable company?


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## cwoody222

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo can not compete directly with a leased device from the cable company.


They should at least TRY.

If not, they'll fail.

A consumer product like this priced at $800 is just insane, in my opinion...


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## bkdtv

> A consumer product like this priced at $800 is just insane, in my opinion...


This technology is expensive.

Many here are familiar with those Motorola DCT-6416 DVRs used by Comcast. If you tamper with one of those (such as to try and upgrade the hard drive), Comcast adds a line item to your bill of a little over *$700*.

Cable is able to subsidize the cost of their equipment through all sorts of other price increases (for every ~$20 they pay for programming, you pay $50+) on top of their own $10-$18/mo DVR fee, but Tivo is limited to the service fee until they can create revenue through other services.


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## MickeS

Consider the $999 price for the new Samsung BDP-1000 blu-ray disc player... which one do you think will get the most use between that and the TiVo? I don't think $800 is an unreasonable first-generation (which it is - there's no other product like it on the market) price.


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## Riverdome

The $800 prive point is just about where I expected the S3 to fall upon release. The question for each of us remains is upgrading from HD cable boxes to S3 worth $800 + service? While my family hates the HD Moto box we are stuck with I can't justify the expense. I'll reconsider with every price reduction, but with SDV and expected cable card woes (my cable company is a small regional carrier who sucks more than the average carrier) I'm not sure if I'll ever be a S3 owner.


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## dig_duggler

_I don't think $800 is an unreasonable first-generation (which it is - there's no other product like it on the market) price._

There's a product pretty damn comparable from my cable company in terms of hardware. I haven't gotten one because I hate the interface. But I'm a picky. Most people aren't.

And do not even try to rationalize that HMO, etc is worth $800. And I don't think anyone here would argue that there isn't a good point to made that the software has taken a step back in recent months.

You introduce it now, with something comparable to consumers available for a fraction of the cost from a cable company right before holiday shopping, you aren't going to make a dent.

And I'm aware that many will cry that the two products aren't comparable. But two of my friends went that route and they aren't looking back. They are appealing to far too small of a market.


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## Bierboy

dig_duggler said:


> _I don't understand this "it's not for the average consumer"...._


_TiVo PLAINLY stated at CES 2006 that they would not subsidize this box as they had previous boxes because it would be higher end product. I'm not sure if those were the exact words, but very close.


Riverdome said:



The $800 prive point is just about where I expected the S3 to fall upon release. The question for each of us remains is upgrading from HD cable boxes to S3 worth $800 + service? ...

Click to expand...

That is not the question for EACH of us. I have basic analog cable and OTA HD and no HD cable box._


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## Riverdome

_"TCD648250B"_

So what ever happened to the "A" model? Is there a possibility of another unit that may be priced differently?


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## dylanursula

Riverdome said:


> The $800 prive point is just about where I expected the S3 to fall upon release. The question for each of us remains is upgrading from HD cable boxes to S3 worth $800 + service? While my family hates the HD Moto box we are stuck with I can't justify the expense. I'll reconsider with every price reduction, but with SDV and expected cable card woes (my cable company is a small regional carrier who sucks more than the average carrier) I'm not sure if I'll ever be a S3 owner.


Riverdome
I have to agree with you on this one. I want a S3 but at $800 smackers is pretty darn expensive. Add to the uncertainity of SDV it is a hard sell to the wife. I just got my S2DT about 15 days ago for the bedroom but am prob going to send that back now as I dont anticipate any savings from having that and a S3. Come on Comcast TIVO lol.


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## drew2k

Bierboy said:


> TiVo PLAINLY stated at CES 2006 that they would not subsidize this box as they had previous boxes because it would be higher end product. I'm not sure if those were the exact words, but very close.


So this was a verbal statement?! Seems kind of a short-sighted decision if it still holds true.

Bierboy, this isn't directed at you, but I'm amazed at how statements from CES are either ridiculed ("that's vaporware - we'll never see that!") or upheld as gospel ("they said it - it will happen!").


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## classicX

MickeS said:


> Consider the $999 price for the new Samsung BDP-1000 blu-ray disc player... which one do you think will get the most use between that and the TiVo? I don't think $800 is an unreasonable first-generation (which it is - there's no other product like it on the market) price.


In that case, one must also consider the fact that Samsung's sales of these players has been lackluster, at best. People have been buying Blu-Ray movies without even having a player because they are waiting for the PS3.

Taking all things into account, Blu-Ray, while expensive, is targeted towards the masses. They are trying to replace the DVD player, a device with an extremely high market penetration. Comparing it to Tivo is a mismatch.

Excluding the technology differences, the price point for the Blu-Ray player ($1000) is a cause for great concern, mainly because it's direct competition, HD-DVD, is selling for half that, and in much greater numbers. (On a side note, HD-DVD discs are generally resampled from master, while it seems that the Blu-Ray discs out now are not, resulting in a phenomenally better picture on HD-DVD.)

With that knowledge, and considering the monthly costs moot (because we assume that they will be very close or equal), You can compare the "cost" of Tivo vs. Cable - ~$800 versus $0.00.

ANY up front cost can be seen as a detriment, but a high one would exclude all but the Tivo fanatics. The ones with the money to buy one (or more) is even a smaller subset.

Given that, Tivo will have major problems if they release at that price with no rebates or bundles, because they'll be selling only to 1) hardcore Tivo fans 2) with HDTV and 3) with money. And even that's not a guarantee, because I fit into that category, and wouldn't buy it at that price.

Good luck Tivo.

</ramble_rant>


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## terryfoster

drew2k said:


> I'm amazed at how statements from CES are either ridiculed ("that's vaporware - we'll never see that!") or upheld as gospel ("they said it - it will happen!").


I think it all depends on the source. My understanding is that we can trust the source (can't for the life of me think of his name) that was at CES.


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## cwoody222

bkdtv said:


> Tivo is limited to the service fee until they can create revenue through other services.


...and how long have they had to create such services?

HMO?

TiVoToGo? (the $ you have to pay for the ability to easily encode for PSP, iPod, etc)

TiVoCast downloads?

TiVo's had plenty of time and opportunity to create other revenue channels. They've failed every time.


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## dig_duggler

I hope the dissenting voices here can be seen for what they are, people who want to see Tivo do good but see this as a bad price point. I really want Tivo to succeed and see this as (another) horrible business decision. As stated before , only the most hardcore of the hardcore Tivo fanatics WITH a good bit of money will get this at $800. I am hardcore and have the cash, but there is no way I can justify this.

Really, this seems to be the last hurrah for Tivo. They have already started farming out their software and it seems like that's Tivo's future. I understand that these are expensive but they are going after such a small market I don't see how they can possibly succeed...


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## as6o

So, are there enough details yet about the Comcast DVR to construct a comparison to what we know about the Series 3? 

I'm in a Comcast market (currently a DirecTV subscriber) that is waiting for a good cable based HD+Tivo solution (the HD sats are blocked by trees at my house) before I start investing in HD gear. Although $799 is within my budget, I should probably take a look at the Comcast DVR too. What are the +/- between the two? I realize the Comcast DVR will probably support multi-direction communication for PPV, etc. but will it support any of the "other" Tivo features (TivoToGo, the home networking stuff, etc.?) Do we even know when the Comcast box will be released? 

Thanks for any info. 

-Aaron


----------



## jfh3

classicX said:


> Here's a idea: instead of using a credit card, try taking the money out in cash, and count it out at the cashier. If you don't say to yourself "wow, this is a LOT of money to watch TV" then by all means, proceed.


Actually, if more people did this, Tivo might end up selling MORE Series 3 boxes. 

(Let me see .... wow - I'm giving the cable company $80 every month and I really don't watch all that. Maybe I'll just switch to basic cable or antenna, but I would still really like a hidef DVR ...)

(Added a smiley - I really don't think this will happen!)


----------



## classicX

dig_duggler said:


> I hope the dissenting voices here can be seen for what they are, people who want to see Tivo do good but see this as a bad price point. I really want Tivo to succeed and see this as (another) horrible business decision. As stated before , only the most hardcore of the hardcore Tivo fanatics WITH a good bit of money will get this at $800. I am hardcore and have the cash, but there is no way I can justify this.
> 
> Really, this seems to be the last hurrah for Tivo. They have already started farming out their software and it seems like that's Tivo's future. I understand that these are expensive but they are going after such a small market I don't see how they can possibly succeed...


I don't see us as "dissenting voices" - this is the general concensus. I know a lot of people here (read: 25) would still pay that price despite their better judgement. I just don't see how Tivo is going to garner new subscriptions with this price - people who have HDTV like to watch TV. They would probably benefit from a DVR. Most of them know about Tivo, and know that they don't have an HDTV offering. Once the S3 is released, they will find out. And balk at the price.

I hope Tivo is saving up to launch a massive marketing campaign - tv commercials (obviously people who don't have Tivo will be the only one's seeing these, ROFL), magazine ads, billboards, the whole nine.


----------



## jfh3

drew2k said:


> I wonder where those who say TiVo announced this is not for the average consumer got their info from.


This topic was addressed on either the 4Q or 1Q results call earlier this year. I don't remember the exact quotes - Tivo didn't use the term "average consumer", but indicated their plans were for the Series 3 to be a high end product not for the masses and they weren't going to subsidize the hardware costs, at least to the extent that had been done in the past with the Series 2.

There were apparently similar comments made in January at CES.


----------



## cwoody222

as6o said:


> but will it support any of the "other" Tivo features (TivoToGo, the home networking stuff, etc.?) Do we even know when the Comcast box will be released?
> 
> Thanks for any info.
> 
> -Aaron


Rumor has it that Comcast has NOT opted to turn off HMO features like DirecTV has.

However, I highly doubt TiVoToGo will be enabled since it may be copyright violations since it's a digital copy, unlike SA TiVos.


----------



## jsmeeker

stevel said:


> $800 is right where I expected the price to hit. And Pony told me that anyone's eSATA drive should work (I asked him this specific question at the con.)


I recall the same thing as well. It actually suprised me a bit, because when I asked Pony the same question back in January, he seemed to imply (to the best of my recollection) that only TiVo "branded" external drives would "officially work". I guess maybe they planned to sell "blessed" drives, but would look the other way, as they do now, if somone were to "hack" the TiVo.


----------



## classicX

jfh3 said:


> Actually, if more people did this, Tivo might end up selling MORE Series 3 boxes.
> 
> (Let me see .... wow - I'm giving the cable company $80 every month and I really don't watch all that. Maybe I'll just switch to basic cable or antenna, but I would still really like a hidef DVR ...)


Entirely possible but highly improbable. Personally, I 1) don't pay that much for cable and 2) would be watching every $20 I count and thinking "I could have this for that much." $800 is more than the price of the majority of consumer electronics. Most people are spending between $1000 and $2000 for their new HDTVs - to ask them to spend another $800 on to of that just seems excessive to me.

Or perhaps there are people with money burning a hole in their pocket who are waiting for an HD Tivo to buy that HDTV.

Or perhaps you could just hire a person to sit in your house all day to record your season passes, watch TV and record suggestions for you, and yell to other rooms what's happening (HMO!).


----------



## jfh3

dig_duggler said:


> I hope the dissenting voices here can be seen for what they are, people who want to see Tivo do good but see this as a bad price point. I really want Tivo to succeed and see this as (another) horrible business decision. As stated before , only the most hardcore of the hardcore Tivo fanatics WITH a good bit of money will get this at $800. I am hardcore and have the cash, but there is no way I can justify this.
> 
> Really, this seems to be the last hurrah for Tivo. They have already started farming out their software and it seems like that's Tivo's future. I understand that these are expensive but they are going after such a small market I don't see how they can possibly succeed...


So what's a better business decision? Sell the boxes at a loss, with the possibility that they'll never recoup that money? How is that possibly a better option for Tivo? I'm sure Tivo isn't saying "Wow - these boxes only cost $100; let's sell them for $800 and see how much of a killing we can make". (Ask you cable company how much your "free" DVR actually costs if you want to buy one and not lease it every month forever).

(And they aren't "farming out their software" - they are developing versions for other hardware platforms).


----------



## NatasNJ

$800 keeps me with Directv for awhile longer. Verizon TV will have to wait...


----------



## jfh3

as6o said:


> So, are there enough details yet about the Comcast DVR to construct a comparison to what we know about the Series 3?


Nope. And it's not a new Comcast DVR, just a software load for existing boxes. About the only thing we know for sure is that the Comcast boxes have about 1/2 the storage and aren't expandable.

The Comcast software is in beta test in some (primarily) east coast markets, and expected to start rolling out sometime 4Q, through there has been speculation that this will be delayed into 2007.

We don't know which of Tivo's non-core features will be available on the Comcast platform, but the initial press release seemed to indicate it would be more than what DirecTV provided.


----------



## dig_duggler

_And they aren't "farming out their software" - they are developing versions for other hardware platforms_

That's farming out your software. Only tivo's most valuble asset and all...

As for selling at losses, that's what gaming companies do all the time. They recoup in game sales. Also, that's what Tivo is CURRENTLY DOING with their s2's...


----------



## jfh3

classicX said:


> Entirely possible but highly improbable. .


I agree, and have edited my post to add a smiley.

Most people that can afford a Series 3 wouldn't use the "count cash" approach. Those that have to probably shouldn't buy one anyway.

I'd love to see the box closer to $500 and it'll eventually get there. But given the hardware costs of all the other HD DVR solutions on the market (e.g. purchasing costs), I don't see how Tivo can sell one at that price point without losing money.


----------



## jfh3

dig_duggler said:


> As for selling at losses, that's what gaming companies do all the time. They recoup in game sales. Also, that's what Tivo is CURRENTLY DOING with their s2's...


At the moment, Tivo only has essentially only one other product to sell and that's the monthly service. If that were $50 like the cost of the average game cartridge, they might be able to afford to subdize the box more, just like the cable companies do with their DVRs. But at $12.95/month (or for many potential Series 3 owners, $6.95 per month), there's little room to fund a hardware subsidy.

You are correct that Tivo is currently subdizing the hardware of the Series 2. That's the box for the masses. Tivo has said they aren't going to be doing the same thing for the Series 3.


----------



## classicX

jfh3 said:


> I'd love to see the box closer to $500 and it'll eventually get there. But given the hardware costs of all the other HD DVR solutions on the market (e.g. purchasing costs), I don't see how Tivo can sell one at that price point without losing money.


Actually, I just got a new perspective.

Since Tivo boxes aren't "made to order" like computers, they have a stock, which they ALREADY paid for. Which scenario is better:

A. Selling half their stock at or slightly above cost, while the other half just sits around collecting dust.

B. Selling ALL of their stock at a slight loss.

Now personally I favor scenario B. The first one means that they lost half of what they spent on the stock, with no subscriptions on any of the unsold boxes. The second one means that while they may lose up to half their costs on the boxes themselves, they have double the subscriptions. And that assumes that they are selling them half cost.

If I had to chose, I'd rather lose half my money and have 20,000 revenue streams than lose half my money and have 10,000 revenue streams.


----------



## TiVo Troll

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo can not compete directly with a leased device from the cable company. That is why they add the many features like TiVoToGo, MRV, Kid Zone etc.. and look to compete on being a better product that justifies the larger price. There has not been an HD DVR like this on the market yet. Sony had something but it did not have all the TiVo features. Many people complained about the 999$ price of the HD DirectTiVo but they went off the shelf and it was hard to find one to buy. Slowly over time the price went down to about 350$ today. Why is it a mystery that the S3 will do the same thing and is indeed trying very hard to not look like a direct competitor to a leased HD DVR from the cable company?


Sony's HD DVR is discontinued and other than on eBay is no longer available. I've got one and it's fine with single tuner and TVGOS (w/manual channel mapping as necessary) which uitilizes a CableCARD for scrambled channels. (I've scheduled a CableCARD installation next week, but then will be away for two weeks so won't be able to immediately report on CC functionality.) Priced around $700. Sony's offering wasn't appreciably cheaper than TiVo's more feature laden dual tuner Series 3.

For $800, TiVo's dual tuner hi-def DVR is *not* expensive at all! Apparently many people are just spoiled nowadays by how relatively cheap so many consumer electronics products have become.

The future of TiVo likely depends on its getting the right deals from cable companies to provide software for cable DVR's. Hardware just doesn't seem to generate enough income to turn a profit, overall.

So snap up the legendary Series 3 dual tuner "standalone" OTA/cable TiVo before TiVo brand DVR's become collectors' items and TiVo is just a "provided by" name on OEM cable co. DVR's!


----------



## Bierboy

Bierboy said:


> I just checked the Crutchfield Web site (for any possible mentione of the S3), and it now appears that they no longer carry TiVo products. When did this happen?


Responding to my own post, here's what Crutchfield has to say about carrying the S3...


> We currently do not have any TIVO products, but this will likely change in the coming months as we approach Christmas. The newest HD version is coming and we will likely have the new products. Please check back with us in a few months.


----------



## TiVo Troll

classicX said:


> Excluding the technology differences, the price point for the Blu-Ray player ($1000) is a cause for great concern, mainly because it's direct competition, HD-DVD, is selling for half that, and in much greater numbers. (On a side note, HD-DVD discs are generally resampled from master, while it seems that the Blu-Ray discs out now are not, resulting in a phenomenally better picture on HD-DVD.)


Blu-Ray's first player is a bit flakey as compared to HD-DVD according to the first review in _Sound and Vision_. It's too soon to predict that battle's outcome. Perhaps the quite decent quality available from regular 480p DVD's will slow both new formats at this point.

I still believe that a single or dual Series 2 which can control digital STB's from cable, satellite, *and* OTA should be in TiVo's mix at this point.



> Good luck Tivo.


Amen.


----------



## jfh3

classicX said:


> Actually, I just got a new perspective.
> 
> Since Tivo boxes aren't "made to order" like computers, they have a stock, which they ALREADY paid for. Which scenario is better:
> 
> A. Selling half their stock at or slightly above cost, while the other half just sits around collecting dust.
> 
> B. Selling ALL of their stock at a slight loss.
> 
> Now personally I favor scenario B.


I agree - B is better.

How do we know that's not what Tivo is doing? I'm sure their initial production run takes into account research on how many they expect to sell at $800 as opposed to what they might sell at $500.


----------



## Crazydiamond

I have two series 2 units.

There are several features I want in a new TIVO - starting with the Top feature and working down.

1) Cablecard ( Ya - I know all the issues - and I still want it)
2) Dual Tuner
3) More Storage
4) HD

To be honest number 4 is not too important to me now - or for the next few years - until more substantial number of HD channels are available on cable (say 25% or more).


So in order to get items the first three items - I am going to have to pay the premium for Series 3 with HD - unless they issue a Series 2 DT with Cablecard which I guess they won't.


----------



## bkdtv

Like Tivo Troll says, until recently, Sony was selling a *single* tuner CableCard/OTA DVR for about $700. It would only record one channel at a time. It didn't support external hard drive expansion. It didn't offer an ethernet connection and didn't support any kind of networking. It didn't offer any kind of PC/Mac integration.

It didn't have a monthly fee, but it didn't have the Tivo software; rather, it used an updated version of the TVGuide software found on DVD Recorders.

Sony didn't make money on it so it was discontinued.


----------



## cbordman

The Sony did not have recurring service fees, did it?


----------



## jfh3

bkdtv said:


> Sony didn't make money on it so it was discontinued.


And there were apparently quite a few support problems with customers that had problems getting accurate TVGOS guide data from a local broadcaster, which hastened the demise of the DHG series.

Nice box if you can receive the guide data and deal with the TVGOS limitations and the not-so-elegant interface.


----------



## jfh3

cbordman said:


> The Sony did not have recurring service fees, did it?


No.


----------



## Bierboy

And, I had the Sony DHG for several months earlier this year. Nice PQ, but lousy TVGOS interface with, as mentioned, spotty dependability on accuracy of listings (or even any at all). Returned it, and saved the $ for S3.


----------



## NickIN

If you buy it at Best Buy are you still required to commit to a service contract? Is it possible that if you buy it from TiVo combined with a service contract that the price of the unit would be somewhat lower?


----------



## Bierboy

NickIN said:


> If you buy it at Best Buy are you still required to commit to a service contract? Is it possible that if you buy it from TiVo combined with a service contract that the price of the unit would be somewhat lower?


If you buy retail, under TiVo's current plans, you are not required to commit to a service contract. You pay more up front, but don't get locked in to any payment committment. Generally, since they began offering the contracts, the units have been less expensive with the service contract than at retail outlets.


----------



## danieljanderson

What are the chances that TiVo will use the same pricing model they currently use on the SD models? 

....$20.00 per month. No upfront hardware cost. 

Or something like it.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

classicX said:


> Actually, I just got a new perspective.
> 
> Since Tivo boxes aren't "made to order" like computers, they have a stock, which they ALREADY paid for. Which scenario is better:
> 
> A. Selling half their stock at or slightly above cost, while the other half just sits around collecting dust.
> 
> B. Selling ALL of their stock at a slight loss.


uummm what is wrong with C - sell half their stock at above cost - then lower the price and sell the other half.

Personally I predict threads on trying to find an S3 to buy


----------



## Welshdog

Those of you who perceive the $799 price as "high" need to consider just how many peple there are out there who buy expensive high end AV gear. For now that is the target market. There are so many companies making crazy expensive audio and video equipment - and they seem to be very successful. For example look at this page:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/buyersguides/discplayersult/

Yes that is a $6000 DVD player. Apparently people drop this kind of scratch every day without blinking.

Some of these folks are going to want a machine like the S3 and I think the market is big enough that Tivo will have some success with it. I can't afford the $6k DVD unit, but I can afford the S3 and will most likely buy one next year. That is AFTER I get a HDTV display and my dream DVD player, the Denon DVD-2930CI which BTW is about the same price as the S3.

I also think that the S3 to some degree is a proof of concept product and that Tivo will use what they have learned with S3 to make other devices that record HD - eventually at a lower price point. The chipsets that handle digital TV endocidng and processing, both SD and HD, will drop in price as more and more people adopt HD.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

danieljanderson said:


> What are the chances that TiVo will use the same pricing model they currently use on the SD models?
> 
> ....$20.00 per month. No upfront hardware cost.
> 
> Or something like it.


it would take them 9.5 years to get the 800$ on hardware out of that. I can see them doing 3 years at 33$ - that would recoup 700$ for hardware with a subscription rate of 12.95 per month added in.

People would be willing to go three years committment *IF* they did not have worries about SDV


----------



## MickeS

classicX said:


> I hope Tivo is saving up to launch a massive marketing campaign - tv commercials (obviously people who don't have Tivo will be the only one's seeing these, ROFL), magazine ads, billboards, the whole nine.


LOL ... oh... you were serious *wipes tears of laughter from eyes*

TiVo will of course fail miserably with the marketing of S3, like they have failed with every single ad campaign before it. They'll probably come up with great ideas like "house parties" or maybe some weird campaign for magazines aimed at people who don't watch TV...


----------



## greg_burns

Crazydiamond said:


> I have two series 2 units.
> 
> There are several features I want in a new TIVO - starting with the Top feature and working down.
> 
> 1) Cablecard ( Ya - I know all the issues - and I still want it)
> 2) Dual Tuner
> 3) More Storage
> 4) HD
> 
> To be honest number 4 is not too important to me now - or for the next few years - until more substantial number of HD channels are available on cable (say 25% or more).
> 
> So in order to get items the first three items - I am going to have to pay the premium for Series 3 with HD - unless they issue a Series 2 DT with Cablecard which I guess they won't.


You can get #3 (more storage) easy enough w/o buying an S3...


----------



## bicker

jfh3 said:


> So what's a better business decision? Sell the boxes at a loss, with the possibility that they'll never recoup that money? How is that possibly a better option for Tivo?


Please understand that sometimes there is *no* good answers. There are many cases where there is simply not a context for making a profit on an offering.

Also, please keep in mind that TiVo has other options, i.e., selling to cable companies (exclusively). I'm not sure if that's potentially profitable either, but at least it is another opportunity.


----------



## bicker

dig_duggler said:


> _And they aren't "farming out their software" - they are developing versions for other hardware platforms_ That's farming out your software.


"Farming out" typically means having someone else do the work, and selling it as your own. What TiVo is doing is "porting" their software, not farming it out.


----------



## classicX

Welshdog said:


> Those of you who perceive the $799 price as "high" need to consider just how many peple there are out there who buy expensive high end AV gear. For now that is the target market. There are so many companies making crazy expensive audio and video equipment - and they seem to be very successful. For example look at this page:
> 
> http://www.ultimateavmag.com/buyersguides/discplayersult/
> 
> Yes that is a $6000 DVD player. Apparently people drop this kind of scratch every day without blinking.
> 
> Some of these folks are going to want a machine like the S3 and I think the market is big enough that Tivo will have some success with it. I can't afford the $6k DVD unit, but I can afford the S3 and will most likely buy one next year. That is AFTER I get a HDTV display and my dream DVD player, the Denon DVD-2930CI which BTW is about the same price as the S3.
> 
> I also think that the S3 to some degree is a proof of concept product and that Tivo will use what they have learned with S3 to make other devices that record HD - eventually at a lower price point. The chipsets that handle digital TV endocidng and processing, both SD and HD, will drop in price as more and more people adopt HD.


I buy pretty high-end equipment and would still balk at $799 for an S3. But that's beside the point.

You're overlooking the fact that those companies don't build significant amounts of these units for "stock" and then sell them. Most of those items are small stock (only 5 or 10 in stock, or LESS). The companies don't spend the money up front - any time you want to buy them, you have to order them and wait several weeks if not months for that kind of equipment to come in.

Would you wait 6-8 weeks for your S3 after you order it?

People who buy Gryphon's "Poseidon" speakers at $130,000 per pair would probably have no problem with $800 for a Tivo, but that's assuming they even cared to buy one.

If that's Tivo's target market, fine. But these people buy those things 1) for quality and 2) because no one else HAS them. And if that's the case, why not charge $3000? $4000? Surely the same people would pay that for an HD Tivo that no one else can get.


----------



## petew

danieljanderson said:


> What are the chances that TiVo will use the same pricing model they currently use on the SD models?
> 
> ....$20.00 per month. No upfront hardware cost.
> 
> Or something like it.


Actually the current pricing model is zero down $20/month for a basic Series 2, anything better involves a "box fee" so we may eventually see S3 available in a bundle but with a very hefty box fee.


----------



## MickeS

Bierboy said:


> If you buy retail, under TiVo's current plans, you are not required to commit to a service contract.


Is that really true? I thought all new subs required a 12 month minimum commitment.


----------



## ah30k

I bought retail and had to commit to 1 year.


----------



## TiVo Troll

NickIN said:


> If you buy it at Best Buy are you still required to commit to a service contract? Is it possible that if you buy it from TiVo combined with a service contract that the price of the unit would be somewhat lower?


Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding your meaning, but *TiVo Service Plans* require a 12 month comitment:

_At the time of activation of a TiVo Service Only Payment Plan, you will be required to commit to the TiVo service for a minimum of one (1) year. 
You may choose to either: (a) pay for your TiVo service on a monthly basis at $12.95 per month; or (b) prepay for your TiVo service. 
If you choose to prepay for your TiVo service, you may prepay for your TiVo service for either one (1) year at $155.40, two (2) years at $299, or three (3) years at $399. 
A 30 day Money Back Guarantee applies to initial activations only of TiVo service. See full terms of TiVo's 30 day Money Back Guarantee for complete details. Excludes TiVo service renewals, hardware replacements, and upgrades. 
An early termination fee of up to $150.00 applies to your one (1) year monthly TiVo Service Only Payment Plan if cancelled prior to the end of your commitment, except as permitted under TiVo's 30 day Money Back Guarantee. An early termination fee of the lesser of $150.00 or the amount owed on the remaining term of your TiVo Service Only Payment Plan commitment will be charged to you._


----------



## petew

Welshdog said:


> Those of you who perceive the $799 price as "high" need to consider just how many peple there are out there who buy expensive high end AV gear.


The bottom line is the cost to build the S3, and it's going to be expensive because the chipsets being used are not cheap, plus Tivo will want to recoup some of their devlopment costs. Over time the components will drop in price and the S3 will become cheaper.

Or look at it another way: Comcast are funding the cost of the Comcast DVR hardware so the royalties Tivo get from Comcast will be pure profit. If Tivo sell the S3 at a loss then which unit would Tivo prefer we use?


----------



## classicX

MickeS said:


> Is that really true? I thought all new subs required a 12 month minimum commitment.


That's for retail stores though, where you go in, get the box and take it home.

But it's a dumb model for Tivo - it works for cell phones because yeah, you can pay more for an "unlocked" cell phone, but the only reason you are paying more is because once you have it, then you have a choice of providers.

The only advantage to buying it at Best Buy is the fact that you don't have to wait for the box and their return policy.

Maybe someone should sell guide data for Tivos and give them some service competition...


----------



## jgerry

TiVo Troll said:


> Sony's HD DVR is discontinued and other than on eBay is no longer available. I've got one and it's fine with single tuner and TVGOS (w/manual channel mapping as necessary) which uitilizes a CableCARD for scrambled channels. (I've scheduled a CableCARD installation next week, but then will be away for two weeks so won't be able to immediately report on CC functionality.) Priced around $700. Sony's offering wasn't appreciably cheaper than TiVo's more feature laden dual tuner Series 3.
> 
> For $800, TiVo's dual tuner hi-def DVR is *not* expensive at all! Apparently many people are just spoiled nowadays by how relatively cheap so many consumer electronics products have become.


You bet I'm spoiled. I compare $800 up front / $12.95 per month for a new S3 Tivo to the $10/month rental from the cable company, and it's no contest. The monthly fee for the Tivo is more than the whole rental from the cable co. Yes the cable co box sucks, but it does work, and it's cheap.

If the cable company can lease me a box for $10/month, why can't Tivo lease me a box for $15-$25/month, which would include the hardware and the monthly fee? The upfront cost, although I can certainly afford it, is putting me off.


----------



## MickeS

classicX said:


> It's true. That's for retail stores though, where you go in, get the box and take it home. The commitments / prepay options are on the website only.


See TiVo Troll's post above. Every sub requires a 12 month minimum commitment. It's really idiotic.


----------



## Bierboy

MickeS said:


> Is that really true? I thought all new subs required a 12 month minimum commitment.


Sorry...I stand corrected. I was thinking of my situation where I will buy retail, but transfer my $12.95/month on my current S2 (with no contract obligation) to the S3 (or add the S3 to my S2 for $6.95/month for the MSD without a contract). So, in my situation, no contract is required.


----------



## TiVo Troll

jgerry said:


> You bet I'm spoiled. I compare $800 up front / $12.95 per month for a new S3 Tivo to the $10/month rental from the cable company, and it's no contest. The monthly fee for the Tivo is more than the whole rental from the cable co. Yes the cable co box sucks, but it does work, and it's cheap.
> 
> If the cable company can lease me a box for $10/month, why can't Tivo lease me a box for $15-$25/month, which would include the hardware and the monthly fee? The upfront cost, although I can certainly afford it, is putting me off.


So what's wrong with *these*?


----------



## Riverdome

jgerry said:


> You bet I'm spoiled. I compare $800 up front / $12.95 per month for a new S3 Tivo to the $10/month rental from the cable company, and it's no contest. The monthly fee for the Tivo is more than the whole rental from the cable co. Yes the cable co box sucks, but it does work, and it's cheap.
> 
> If the cable company can lease me a box for $10/month, why can't Tivo lease me a box for $15-$25/month, which would include the hardware and the monthly fee? The upfront cost, although I can certainly afford it, is putting me off.


I think a lot of us are viewing the S3 in this exact manner. Eventually the price for the S3 will come down and it will be much more likely that we will shell out $xxx for the box and then it's only a matter of $12.95/month vs. $10/month. I'll pay more for Tivo but let's not get carried away.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

classicX said:


> People who buy Gryphon's "Poseidon" speakers at $130,000 per pair would probably have no problem with $800 for a Tivo, but that's assuming they even cared to buy one.
> 
> If that's Tivo's target market, fine. But these people buy those things 1) for quality and 2) because no one else HAS them. And if that's the case, why not charge $3000? $4000? Surely the same people would pay that for an HD Tivo that no one else can get.


uummm dude - $130,000 for speakers is kind of an extreme don't you think. They would not even know what DVR they are using as someone else took Myth and rebranded it and put it in for them. It would probably be a HTPC that came with a support contract for someone else to deal with the hassles of it


----------



## MichaelK

i really think the cost to build the things is somewhere in the 500-700 dollar range.

Directv said at the beginning of the year that their cost for HD DVR's at the time was around $600. THe series 3 will be able to get by with some cheaper more integrated 2nd/3rd generation chips that the HR10-250 didn't have but it will also have some adtional stuff tossed in. So it's going to cost them something around 600 just to built- not accounting for any of the time and effort to develop.

Kind of bummed it will be so much and it will make me pause for a minute to think it through but I think that's likely par for the course this Holiday season. As time moves on it will likley drop.

I guess my dream of grabbing 2 on day one is blown, but myself I'll likley get one and then wait for a more "reasonable" price for the second unit...


----------



## ah30k

classicX said:


> The only advantage to buying it at Best Buy is the fact that you don't have to wait for the box and their return policy.


 ..and you can take advantage of the MSD on this unit. Granted, if you already have an unbundled unit you can shuffle your units around and define the bundled one as your prime ($12.95) and your unbundled as the secondary ($6.95). But if all of your units are 'bundled' from TiVo.com then you can't MSD any of them.


----------



## MickeS

jgerry said:


> If the cable company can lease me a box for $10/month, why can't Tivo lease me a box for $15-$25/month


You're right - the problem is that the cable company doesn't lease you a box for $10/month. They just spread the fees out in their package pricing.


----------



## morac

I'm wondering how release ready the S3 actually is at this point. So far the only things that have been confirmed to be working are HME and basic TiVo functionality. ToGo has been reported to not be working and the external SATA drive may or may not have been implemented. Add to this that this will be the first software revision for the S3 (and bound to have lots of bugs in it) and I wonder how many people will plop down $800 the first day for this.

I predict many people will take a wait and see attitude with the S3 especially if it is only being marketted to high end consumers (who I would hope research their products before putting down close to a grand on it). 

I myself will wait and see what features are available at launch and even then I probably won't pick one up until the price drops. There's also the Comcast TiVo box in the mix for me.


----------



## Welshdog

classicX said:


> I buy pretty high-end equipment and would still balk at $799 for an S3. But that's beside the point.
> You're overlooking the fact that those companies don't build significant amounts of these units for "stock" and then sell them. Most of those items are small stock (only 5 or 10 in stock, or LESS). The companies don't spend the money up front - any time you want to buy them, you have to order them and wait several weeks if not months for that kind of equipment to come in.


I see what you are saying, but I'm not really concerned about Tivo's internal manufacturing/stocking/marketing structure. I'm looking at who will buy the S3 and it seems to me there are plenty of people who will be interested. Let's drag it down a notch or two from the super high end level and just look at a company like Denon. They sell tens of thousands of units every year. I doubt that any of it is build to order. They have some affordable gear, but they sell a lot of the more expensive stuff too. Like the DVD player I'm interested in, same price as the S3 and it is generating a lot of excitement and anticipation.


> Would you wait 6-8 weeks for your S3 after you order it?


Yes, I'm not an impatient person.


> People who buy Gryphon's "Poseidon" speakers at $130,000 per pair would probably have no problem with $800 for a Tivo, but that's assuming they even cared to buy one.


I have a friend who owned a company in Houston that installed very high end AV systems in the mansions of rich people. The majority of his clients did not know or care about the brand of the equipment. Even if they were specifying super high end. They could have four S3s and not even know it. Some care about their gear, many don't. Nonetheless, they gladly pay, whatever the costs.


> If that's Tivo's target market, fine. But these people buy those things 1) for quality and 2) because no one else HAS them. And if that's the case, why not charge $3000? $4000? Surely the same people would pay that for an HD Tivo that no one else can get.


I'd like to see Tivo license their software to some of these companies. That way we could get even better hardware, the rich folk could have their exclusivity and we would still have the familiar Tivo interface. And then there just might be a $4000 Tivo.

With 6 Tb of storage.


----------



## MickeS

For those of you saying that TiVo has stated S3 is directed towards the high-end market, you might be thinking of this: http://investor.tivo.com/downloads/TiVo_Overview.pdf

See page 8, where they list their target audience "High End Consumers" for the S3.


----------



## Adam1115

First of all, I don't see why $799 is expensive. Of COURSE it is going to be MUCH higher when it first comes out, as they are still ramping up production and can sell smaller quanities to early adapters in the 2006 Christmas season. As production gets higher, I'm sure the prices will start dropping...

Second, the Comcast TiVo surely won't compete against the high end series 3. Even IF networking and HME are turned on, the thing will only record what, 14 hours? It's very likely that hard drive WON'T be upgradable, and even if it where, you're leasing the box. It's VERY likely that you will be able to upgrade the internal hard drive to a 750 Gig, AND add an external esata...


----------



## classicX

ZeoTiVo said:


> uummm dude - $130,000 for speakers is kind of an extreme don't you think. They would not even know what DVR they are using as someone else took Myth and rebranded it and put it in for them. It would probably be a HTPC that came with a support contract for someone else to deal with the hassles of it


My point exactly. I guess it's less "high end" and more "exotic." I was going for an effect here... besides, those aren't even the most expensive speakers that you can buy. Not even close.



Welshdog said:


> Let's drag it down a notch or two from the super high end level and just look at a company like Denon. They sell tens of thousands of units every year.


Denon also isn't selling equipment with a five year life expectancy, and asking people to pay monthly fees to use their equipment. I can easily justify spending $2000 on an A/V receiver because I expect to have it for 10+ years without having to replace parts or needing to "hack" it.

I'm just saying, personally, I can't justify to myself (let alone to my wife) spending $800 on a machine and spending the same amount (OR MORE!!!) per month when I can spend $0.00 and still record shows that I want. That's the bottom line.

And for the record, she is not unreasonable, and enjoys technology as well. She would definitely enjoy a Tivo. But the fact of the matter is that I can justify to her spending $2500 on a subwoofer and $1000 on a printer, but she still has a problem with an $800 Tivo.


----------



## classicX

Adam1115 said:


> Second, the Comcast TiVo surely won't compete against the high end series 3. Even IF networking and HME are turned on, the thing will only record what, 14 hours? It's very likely that hard drive WON'T be upgradable, and even if it where, you're leasing the box. It's VERY likely that you will be able to upgrade the internal hard drive to a 750 Gig, AND add an external esata...


If networking and HME are on, you can just get another box from the cable company and put it somewhere else in the house and spend another $15 per month, rather than spend $800 and have to pay between $13 and $20 per month.


----------



## TexasAg

MickeS said:


> You're right - the problem is that the cable company doesn't lease you a box for $10/month. They just spread the fees out in their package pricing.


That may be true, but you're paying for the package pricing with or without Tivo. I have Verizon Fios service. I'll either pay:

(a) $35/month for service + $13/month for Motorola DVR; or
(b) $35/month for service + $16/month for Tivo service (or whatever the cost is) + $3/month for CableCards.

I'm willing to pay some extra for the Tivo service and the CableCards because I'm not thrilled with the Motorola DVR. But, I'd have a heck of a time justifying an $800 price tag just to get the Tivo box, and I'm someone who knows what Tivo is and how great the Tivo service/hardware is.


----------



## Welshdog

classicX said:


> And for the record, she is not unreasonable, and enjoys technology as well. She would definitely enjoy a Tivo. But the fact of the matter is that I can justify to her spending $2500 on a subwoofer and she still has a problem with an $800 Tivo.


Wow, that is cool. My wife would not allow such a subwoofer. She is a total Tivo addict, and last night when I told her how much the S3 was going to cost I didn't get a complaint. Of course I haven't really lined up all the costs for her yet:

$3000 for flat panel LCD dispaly
$850 for Denon DVD player
$800 for S3 + monthly (we are on lifetime right now)
$300 for HDMI cable to get from the equipment rack to the display.
$250 for HDMI switcher

Anyone want to add something else?


----------



## SCSIRAID

Just looked at my account information on tivo.com for my S2 with lifetime. I was surprised to see that the settings column indicated 'Transfers ALLOWED'. Whats up with that? I thought transfers were dead.


----------



## MichaelK

Adam1115 said:


> First of all, I don't see why $799 is expensive. Of COURSE it is going to be MUCH higher when it first comes out, as they are still ramping up production and can sell smaller quanities to early adapters in the 2006 Christmas season. As production gets higher, I'm sure the prices will start dropping...
> 
> Second, the Comcast TiVo surely won't compete against the high end series 3. Even IF networking and HME are turned on, the thing will only record what, 14 hours? It's very likely that hard drive WON'T be upgradable, and even if it where, you're leasing the box. It's VERY likely that you will be able to upgrade the internal hard drive to a 750 Gig, AND add an external esata...


agreed with all that but not sure you'll be able to upgrade the internal drives anymore.

THe pictures floating around have a big fat warrenty seal on the back of the unit...


----------



## MichaelK

SCSIRAID said:
 

> Just looked at my account information on tivo.com for my S2 with lifetime. I was surprised to see that the settings column indicated 'Transfers ALLOWED'. Whats up with that? I thought transfers were dead.


it's talking about transferring content to or from that unit from another tivo...


----------



## whitmans77

SCSIRAID said:


> Just looked at my account information on tivo.com for my S2 with lifetime. I was surprised to see that the settings column indicated 'Transfers ALLOWED'. Whats up with that? I thought transfers were dead.


probably talking about transferring shows from tivo to tivo

whew---800 bux---thats a lil rich for my blood-does anyone know when the comcast /tivo stuff is comin out?>


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Welshdog said:


> Wow, that is cool. My wife would not allow such a subwoofer. She is a total Tivo addict, and last night when I told her how much the S3 was going to cost I didn't get a complaint. Of course I haven't really lined up all the costs for her yet:
> 
> $3000 for flat panel LCD dispaly
> $850 for Denon DVD player
> $800 for S3 + monthly (we are on lifetime right now)
> $300 for HDMI cable to get from the equipment rack to the display.
> $250 for HDMI switcher
> 
> Anyone want to add something else?


what Sound System ? Add 600$ for a sound system nad you are at $5,000 of which the $800 is 16% of the Total. for such an important component that seems reasonable. This is more the real world high end "TV setup" market that TiVo is shooting for.


----------



## petew

whitmans77 said:


> anyone know when the comcast /tivo stuff is comin out?>


Officially same 2nd half 2006 as the S3. A Comcast employee did post that Comcast techs have recieved training on the new unit, so I would guess it's going to be soon.


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## Dan203

I have no problem paying $800 for a S3. We payed almost that much for the Pioneer DVD-RW unit back when it came out, and it didn't have nearly as many added features. In fact the main reason we bought it is because we liked having instant replay, and using the peanut, when playing DVDs and NOT for the DVD recording functionality. 

That being said I suspect that the rebate will apply, since the rebates have always been "service rebates", so when you add that and any internet commerce discounts from etailers like Amazon.com or Buy.com, and it'll probably only end up being about $600.

Dan


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## Welshdog

ZeoTiVo said:


> what Sound System ? Add 600$ for a sound system nad you are at $5,000 of which the $800 is 16% of the Total. for such an important component that seems reasonable.


Already have a Denon 3805 receiver and a Definitive Technology surround speaker system.


> This is more the real world high end "TV setup" market that TiVo is shooting for.


X-zactly! And there are millions of us.


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## bidger

I can see the $800 price tag, if and when confirmed, since a lot is invested into the development and manufacture of the boxes. But, I can also see how some would balk at the purchase for concerns about the future of Cable Card, SDV, and for those in Cox or Comcast markets considering an integrated unit. 

Since I'm in a Time-Warner area, the first two reasons I listed would apply to me. Couple that with the fact that T-W leases HD-capable DVRs in my area for $5/mo., a strategy of DVR service as churn reducer a programming provider can use, but TiVo can't. 

Currently I'm a D* sub with an HR10-250, picked up last year during the $299-$100MIR special, and since T-W doesn't offer CBS or FOX in HD in my area, I'm not looking to leave just now. I have my account set up so that I can request another HD-DVR for the cost of shipping, so why would I want to? I just finished a 6 month HBO for $2/mo. and free Showtime special, I get $5 off on the HD package...these are things that TiVo can't do for you. 

People are bringing up the fact that the HR10-250 was $1000 at release, but it was the only option for D* subs who wanted to record HD programming. For most cable subs, the option of a leased box exists and it's future-proof with no warranty required. Yeah, I guess the S3 has to be aimed at top shelf consumers.


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## terrin81

At this particular price point, using my Series 2 with a big hard drive, and also getting a Cox HD-DVR for an extra couple dollars a month, and double recording my shows (HD on the Cox DVR and normal on the Tivo) just in case something happens to the HD recording (one of the fun quirks of the cable co's DVR's) so I'll still have a reliable backup looks like my best option.


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## btl-a4

$799 is a little stiff, but here is the creative math I will use to justify it.

Cost of S3 $799
rebate -$150
subtotal $649
Lifetime Card $299
Total $948

Then I'll sell it in 2 years on ebay for $850

Total Cost into S3 $948
Net proceeds from sale $800
Total Cost $148
Cost per month $6.17

I may be a bit off on my numbers, but it's my delusion and I'm the only one I have to convice.


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## classicX

btl-a4 said:


> $799 is a little stiff, but here is the creative math I will use to justify it.
> 
> Cost of S3 $799
> rebate -$150
> subtotal $649
> Lifetime Card $299
> Total $948
> 
> Then I'll sell it in 2 years on ebay for $850
> 
> Total Cost into S3 $948
> Net proceeds from sale $800
> Total Cost $148
> Cost per month $6.17
> 
> I may be a bit off on my numbers, but it's my delusion and I'm the only one I have to convice.


That and the fact that you are counting on a $150 rebate which may or may not be applicable, and you're counting on a certain selling price on Ebay.


----------



## btl-a4

btl-a4 said:


> I may be a bit off on my numbers, but it's my delusion and I'm the only one I have to convice.


Dammit, forgot about my wife again, and she's good with numbers. Oh well I'll give it a try.


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## yunlin12

Welshdog said:


> $300 for HDMI cable to get from the equipment rack to the display.
> $250 for HDMI switcher


You may want to check out monoprice for HDMI cables and switches. You may save enough on them to pay for half of your S3.


----------



## btl-a4

classicX said:


> That and the fact that you are counting on a $150 rebate which may or may not be applicable, and you're counting on a certain selling price on Ebay.


Well if I were going to be realistic I'd have to value the Lifetime card at $600 instead of the $300 I paid for it.


----------



## jfh3

NickIN said:


> If you buy it at Best Buy are you still required to commit to a service contract


Only if you want to activate the service.  The only way to activate a Tivo without a one year commitment is to use a 3 month prepaid gift card to activate it. (or lifetime, or 12 month card, which would commit you to a year anyway).



> Is it possible that if you buy it from TiVo combined with a service contract that the price of the unit would be somewhat lower?


Anything's possible. Tivo has already run some promotions on bundle pricing, so we could see something similar with the Series 3, though I doubt we'll see any Series 3 promotions until the initial interest calms down.


----------



## lynesjc

Welshdog said:


> $850 for Denon DVD player


OT, but why on earth would you spend that much on a SD DVD player when you can get an hd dvd player for $500 or less? Regardless of whether blu or hd wins, sd dvd is obsolete.


----------



## Welshdog

yunlin12 said:


> You may want to check out monoprice for HDMI cables and switches. You may save enough on them to pay for half of your S3.


Thanks for that. Are you familiar with the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity website? They have just released a new HDMI Cable BenchMark test that I found useful. They don't test the cable from Monoprice, but they do test one from these guys HDTVsupply It also has a reasonable price.


----------



## Welshdog

lynesjc said:


> OT, but why on earth would you spend that much on a SD DVD player when you can get an hd dvd player for $500 or less? Regardless of whether blu or hd wins, sd dvd is obsolete.


Neither of the HD disc formats are sorted out yet. Both have issues that I don't want to deal with, and both probably won't do a very good job of scaling up SD DVDs in my collection or that I get from Netflix. It will be a quite a while before Netflix starts renting HD discs I think. The Denon player does an excellent job on scaling. Plus it has the DenonLink proprietary multi-channel audio connection that works with my Denon receiver for SACD and DVD-A. This player will serve me just fine until the HD format wars are over. Here is a quote from the review I linked earlier in this thread: 


> Needless to say the DVD-2930CI is highly recommended and with the right amount of care this player could conceivably carry you through the entire format war and well beyond, without ever skipping a beat. Regardless of your hi-def DVD plans if you own even a moderate DVD collection and are looking for something above the fold in DVD playback, be sure to audition the Denon DVD-2930CI before making your final decision, your eyes will thank me. _Hometheaterblog.com_


 I have learned not to be an early adopter.


----------



## Dan203

Welshdog said:


> Neither of the HD disc formats are sorted out yet. Both have issues that I don't want to deal with, and both probably won't do a very good job of scaling up SD DVDs in my collection or that I get from Netflix.


Actually I've seen reviews that praise how well the Toshiba HD-DVD player upscales SD DVDs. In fact I believe Sound & Vision said it looked better then even their recomended $1,800 upscaling DVD player.

Also Netflix started renting HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks on the first day they were released.

Dan


----------



## Welshdog

Dan203 said:


> Actually I've seen reviews that praise how well the Toshiba HD-DVD player upscales SD DVDs. In fact I believe Sound & Vision said it looked better then even their recomended $1,800 upscaling DVD player.
> 
> Also Netflix started renting HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks on the first day they were released.
> 
> Dan


Thanks for the info. This is why forums are a good thing.


----------



## pkaytes

Adam1115 said:


> Second, the Comcast TiVo surely won't compete against the high end series 3. Even IF networking and HME are turned on, the thing will only record what, 14 hours? It's very likely that hard drive WON'T be upgradable, and even if it where, you're leasing the box. It's VERY likely that you will be able to upgrade the internal hard drive to a 750 Gig, AND add an external esata...


Not to mention functionality. I have an HD DVR from my cable company and the thing is a piece of crap. Navigation buttons don't do what you think they'd do, planning and recording programs is a pain (you have to find the program day/date first and then set it to record, at which point you can set a recurring recording). The first run/first run and repeats doesn't work, I often get the same program 5 times because the guide can't tell a first run from a repeat. The buttons on the remote don't do what you'd think they should (and I'm not techno-illiterate). The guide doesn't group episodes of the same show. And after 3 or 4 HD programs/movies, I'm full up.

Sure the rental is cheap, but you get what you pay for. I'd gladly shell out the bucks for a box that has the DVR capablility of a TIVO (Wishlist/Pick Programs solves most of the above problems and the guide appears to be more accurate from TIVO than the cable box provides) and can do high def. I get rid of two crappy cable boxes, the rental on the HD, and the rental on the DVR, along with their crappy remotes.


----------



## Dan203

pkaytes said:


> Not to mention functionality. I have an HD DVR from my cable company and the thing is a piece of crap.


I believe they were talking about the upcoming upgrade that will allow you to run the TiVo software on your Comcast DVR. The deal has been in the works for over a year and is finally supose to be released sometime in the next few months.

Dan


----------



## blipszyc

For me $799 is too much. For others, perhaps not. But what I want to know is why does it have to be $799. Why did they go with such a large hard drive out of the gate. Why not go back to their original business model of varying hour units. Sell a 14 hour unit for $399 that uses a small hard drive and a 60 hour unit for $799 that houses a larger drive. Better yet, they could only sell the smaller unit for $399 and offer huge TiVo branded hard drives, guaranteed to work, for $400. (Like the Xbox360 models - Core/Premium) This way they could compete with CableCo's that can subsidize their boxes, but at the same time appeal to those who want the extra recording time. 

My wife and I were really psyched to hear that a non Sat HD Tivo was on its way, but it looks like we'll be putting up with the Adelphia DVR for another season.


----------



## seattlewendell

Stanley Rohner said:


> Why are you WOW! about it costing $800 ?
> 
> The High-Def DIRECTiVo was about $999 when it first came out.
> 
> $799 sounds like a bargain to me considering what it will do.


I don't care that the original HD Directivo was $999. I just paid $89 for a LCD portable DVD player. 5 years ago my company was selling them for $1000.
$799 is too much. Both cable and satellite options are much much cheaper. $799 is totally out of scale especially combined with monthly service charges. I suspect that this information is incorrect.


----------



## jfh3

blipszyc said:


> But what I want to know is why does it have to be $799.


Maybe so they wouldn't lose money on the hardware cost.



> Why did they go with such a large hard drive out of the gate.


250GB isn't that big when recording hidef - around 30 hours. And the cost difference between a 120 or 160 drive and a 250 drive at wholesale wouldn't be enough to drop the retail price by 1/2.


----------



## MichaelK

blipszyc said:


> For me $799 is too much. For others, perhaps not. But what I want to know is why does it have to be $799. Why did they go with such a large hard drive out of the gate. Why not go back to their original business model of varying hour units. Sell a 14 hour unit for $399 that uses a small hard drive and a 60 hour unit for $799 that houses a larger drive. Better yet, they could only sell the smaller unit for $399 and offer huge TiVo branded hard drives, guaranteed to work, for $400. (Like the Xbox360 models - Core/Premium) This way they could compete with CableCo's that can subsidize their boxes, but at the same time appeal to those who want the extra recording time.
> 
> My wife and I were really psyched to hear that a non Sat HD Tivo was on its way, but it looks like we'll be putting up with the Adelphia DVR for another season.


 I dont think the hard drive really amount to a large percentage of the things cost. Maybe going with a 160gig drive would save $50- it's not like it would save hundreds.

A 250 gig drive gets you like 30hours o HD f programming- I guess they just figured that the 14 hours in a 160gig drive was too small and not worth a $50 savings.

So the choice would be 
a 30hr 250gig unit for $799 
or
a 14hr 160gig unit for $749

People paying 750 probably dont flinch at another 50 bucks to double the capacity. Many would pay another $50 if it would have come with a 400 or 500gig drive.

Maybe later it makes sense to go lower but I dont think the launch matters...


----------



## MichaelK

seattlewendell said:


> I don't care that the original HD Directivo was $999. I just paid $89 for a LCD portable DVD player. 5 years ago my company was selling them for $1000.
> $799 is too much. Both cable and satellite options are much much cheaper. $799 is totally out of scale especially combined with monthly service charges. I suspect that this information is incorrect.


remember the price on day 1 is not the price for life.

HMO was $99 dollars and then it became free.

The HD tivo was 999 but now it's 399 (or there abouts) the box is still the same and the manufacturing cost is likely not significantly cheaper. It's not a newer model.

All these threads clearly demonstrate that a certain amount of people will but the box at $799. Why sell it to them for $500 and leave all that money on the table? Once the $799 group is exhausted then they will lower the price.

The price will drop.

The only question is how fast.

even without changing the MSRP they can use rebates and service plans to vastly change the prices...


----------



## Tim N.

I have two TIVO's now. The Sony Series one talks to a Motorola STB to receive its picture and the quality is reasonable. The TIVO II is getting its signal directly from the cable (no STB) and the picture quality sucks.

If TIVO Series III gets its signal from the cable and I install cablecard(s), will the picture quality look like the Series II picture quality, or like the quality you get when you go through a STB? This question probably applies only to the analog channels. The digital channels will either look 100%, or they will be pixelated.

So, will a cablecard enable better picture quality, or will it just unscramble the digital channels?


----------



## etsolow

Does anyone have a feel for how easy it will be to inject downloaded MPEG4 files into the TiVo S3 viewing experience? I'm a current DirecTV subscriber, so I'm not up on all the TTG/HME-type stuff. Seems to me that if that process is seamless enough, it might obviate the need for a second S3 unit for additional tuners. Use BitTorrent/iTunes as a virtual 3rd/4th tuner for the rare conflicts.


----------



## terryfoster

Tim N. said:


> I have two TIVO's now. The Sony Series one talks to a Motorola STB to receive its picture and the quality is reasonable. The TIVO II is getting its signal directly from the cable (no STB) and the picture quality sucks.
> 
> If TIVO Series III gets its signal from the cable and I install cablecard(s), will the picture quality look like the Series II picture quality, or like the quality you get when you go through a STB? This question probably applies only to the analog channels. The digital channels will either look 100%, or they will be pixelated.
> 
> So, will a cablecard enable better picture quality, or will it just unscramble the digital channels?


The S3 will record digital cable at a much better quality than any previous TiVo to date. The analog channels will be dependent on the signal quality of your cable line and the quality setting you choose (assuming this is still an option on the box).

Cablecard doesn't affect PQ at all, except for it's ability to decrypt possible digital simulcasts of analog channels.


----------



## MichaelK

Tim N. said:


> I have two TIVO's now. The Sony Series one talks to a Motorola STB to receive its picture and the quality is reasonable. The TIVO II is getting its signal directly from the cable (no STB) and the picture quality sucks.
> 
> If TIVO Series III gets its signal from the cable and I install cablecard(s), will the picture quality look like the Series II picture quality, or like the quality you get when you go through a STB? This question probably applies only to the analog channels. The digital channels will either look 100%, or they will be pixelated.
> 
> So, will a cablecard enable better picture quality, or will it just unscramble the digital channels?


ANALOG channels (usually below channel 100) will still get encoded by the tivo. So you are looking at a similar quality as you see now.

DIGITAL channels will not be encoded they aalready are at the cable head end so the tivo will just record them as is. THese channels are usually 100 and higher on cable systems or the x-y channels if ATSC. Your might not be recording some digital channels on your series1 becasue the STB from moto is converting them from digital to analog to pass them to the tivo then the tivo reencodes from analog to digital. That step will be avoided with the series 3 so you should get somewhat better quality but still cant get anythign better then what you cable company gives you.

But just becasue somethign is digital doesn't mean all or nothing. As far as reception it's all or nothing. But it also matters how the provider chooses to encode the data. THere are vast differnces in the same material depending on how it is encoded. You wont get snow or anything but you will get less detail and more motion artificats with low quality encoding.


----------



## booboy97

The $799 price I can swallow, but I've got 4 TV's - 2 HD's and 2 SD's. I've got Comcast for my 2 HD signals and DirecTivo for my dual tuner setup for all the TV's. Paying for 2 services is a drag but I can't live without dual tuners and I wanted HD (couldn't do it because my signals are stacked - but there is new hardware now to support the Multi Sat signal stacked).

Anyways, I would have to be in the market for 3 S3s if I ditched Sat (I'll live with SD on the final unit).

3 units at $799/each is pretty steep. Not sure what I'll do.

How many would you all buy at that price?


----------



## MichaelK

etsolow said:


> Does anyone have a feel for how easy it will be to inject downloaded MPEG4 files into the TiVo S3 viewing experience? I'm a current DirecTV subscriber, so I'm not up on all the TTG/HME-type stuff. Seems to me that if that process is seamless enough, it might obviate the need for a second S3 unit for additional tuners. Use BitTorrent/iTunes as a virtual 3rd/4th tuner for the rare conflicts.


not positive (using directv now myself while waiting for the series3...) but i think there is a 3rd part freeware program that allows you to take basically any format video clip and vocert it on the fly to mpeg2 for a series 2 tivo.

Probably want to check out the HMO/HME forums here for details.


----------



## MickeS

MichaelK said:


> agreed with all that but not sure you'll be able to upgrade the internal drives anymore.
> 
> THe pictures floating around have a big fat warrenty seal on the back of the unit...


I believe the warranty was always void when you opened up the TiVo and did your own HD installation, sticker or no sticker.


----------



## seattlewendell

MickeS said:


> Consider the $999 price for the new Samsung BDP-1000 blu-ray disc player... which one do you think will get the most use between that and the TiVo? I don't think $800 is an unreasonable first-generation (which it is - there's no other product like it on the market) price.


I realize that this is a Tivo board but to say that there are no other products on the market is just an extremely uniformed statement. Products are judged by what they do not how they do it. I have two different dual tuner HD DVR in my house right now. Direct TV is also releasing one I believe next month.


----------



## Unix_Beard

$799 and lifetime I'd do. $799 AND a monthly fee, nope. I'll keep my old Tivo and cable box and lease a DVR for the HD content. $399 is about the limit for me.


----------



## etsolow

MichaelK said:


> not positive (using directv now myself while waiting for the series3...) but i think there is a 3rd part freeware program that allows you to take basically any format video clip and vocert it on the fly to mpeg2 for a series 2 tivo.
> 
> Probably want to check out the HMO/HME forums here for details.


You might be thinking of the TiVoServer program, which requires a hacked TiVo. I'm assuming those hacks won't be available for some time for the S3.

E


----------



## MickeS

MichaelK said:


> not positive (using directv now myself while waiting for the series3...) but i think there is a 3rd part freeware program that allows you to take basically any format video clip and vocert it on the fly to mpeg2 for a series 2 tivo.
> 
> Probably want to check out the HMO/HME forums here for details.


Yeah, I use the Videora TiVo converter all the time to convert mpeg4 to mpeg2 for the TiVo. The conversion takes about 1/2 the playing time on my PC (a 43 minute show takes around 20 minutes to convert) so viewing mpeg4 on the S3 would be convenient, but not a dealmaker.


----------



## MickeS

seattlewendell said:


> I realize that this is a Tivo board but to say that there are no other products on the market is just an extremely uniformed statement. Products are judged by what they do not how they do it. I have two different dual tuner HD DVR in my house right now. Direct TV is also releasing one I believe next month.


I was talking about what they do, not how they do it. Unless your HD DVR can receive both OTA broadcasts and cable, and also is networked and has capability for user-upgradable storage, there is no other product out there that can do what the S3 does.


----------



## Tim N.

MichaelK said:


> ANALOG channels (usually below channel 100) will still get encoded by the tivo. So you are looking at a similar quality as you see now.


Thanks for the reply. Is there any way to get a better signal from the cable? What is the Mot Box doing to make the picture noticeably better? Is there someway I can duplicate whatever the STB is doing? I hate the thought of buying an S3 and then feeling the quality sucks on non-HD channels.


----------



## MichaelK

booboy97 said:


> The $799 price I can swallow, but I've got 4 TV's - 2 HD's and 2 SD's. I've got Comcast for my 2 HD signals and DirecTivo for my dual tuner setup for all the TV's. Paying for 2 services is a drag but I can't live without dual tuners and I wanted HD (couldn't do it because my signals are stacked - but there is new hardware now to support the Multi Sat signal stacked).
> 
> Anyways, I would have to be in the market for 3 S3s if I ditched Sat (I'll live with SD on the final unit).
> 
> 3 units at $799/each is pretty steep. Not sure what I'll do.
> 
> How many would you all buy at that price?


why not get 2 series 3 and then 2 S2DT's for the SD sets? Assumign MRV works why do you need a third series3?

What will I do:

Myself I too have 2 HD and 2 sd sets. Currently I have 1 HD TIVO, run a SD directivo for the second HD set (didn't want to commit to 2 more years of directv crap for a second HD TiVO) and use a DVD-TiVo for an SD set. 4th SD set is just for dvd's and video games in the basement.

To start I plan to get one Series 3 for the main HD set and then get an S2dt with an HD box and get downrezzed HD for the second HD set (will still be an upgrade over current sd directivo) . Use the DVD-TiVO on one SD set as is. When the price comes down (or if there are good rebates or this $799 price is higher then reality) then I'll grab a second series3 and use the s2DT on the last SD set that is 'naked' right now.

I hope the price drops soon after the new year but time will tell...


----------



## MichaelK

MickeS said:


> I believe the warranty was always void when you opened up the TiVo and did your own HD installation, sticker or no sticker.


true but clearly they looked the other way.

THey log your hard drive size when you connect to their server. I assume sometime in the past 5 years someone put in a larger hard drive then had an issue and put the old drive back in and asked for a warrenty repair. I never heard of anyone getting busted.

Seems no more looking the other way....

Maybe- it's a requirement of cablecard certification?


----------



## MichaelK

etsolow said:


> You might be thinking of the TiVoServer program, which requires a hacked TiVo. I'm assuming those hacks won't be available for some time for the S3.
> 
> E


good point- not sure the s3 will ever be hackable?

Have the newest generation of S2's been hacked?


----------



## MichaelK

MickeS said:


> Yeah, I use the Videora TiVo converter all the time to convert mpeg4 to mpeg2 for the TiVo. The conversion takes about 1/2 the playing time on my PC (a 43 minute show takes around 20 minutes to convert) so viewing mpeg4 on the S3 would be convenient, but not a dealmaker.


does that work with unhacked units?

Personally I'm hoping for MPEG4 playing directly also . I have a camcorder that records quasi-HD in MPEG4. I woiuld prefer to play it as is...


----------



## MichaelK

Tim N. said:


> Thanks for the reply. Is there any way to get a better signal from the cable? What is the Mot Box doing to make the picture noticeably better? Is there someway I can duplicate whatever the STB is doing? I hate the thought of buying an S3 and then feeling the quality sucks on non-HD channels.


IN theory you dont need the moto box- I think the series 1 has an analog cable tuner so there's no need for a cablebox except to get digital channels.

Some systems do however simulcast their analog channels digitally so the box might be getting those cleaner digital versions of those channels. In such cases the Series3 would get you something even better than what your series1 is doing now since there would be no coversions between teh STB and the tivo.


----------



## Bierboy

booboy97 said:


> The $799 price I can swallow...3 units at $799/each is pretty steep. Not sure what I'll do.
> 
> How many would you all buy at that price?


1


----------



## ZeoTiVo

MichaelK said:


> true but clearly they looked the other way.
> 
> THey log your hard drive size when you connect to their server. I assume sometime in the past 5 years someone put in a larger hard drive then had an issue and put the old drive back in and asked for a warrenty repair. I never heard of anyone getting busted.
> 
> Seems no more looking the other way....
> 
> Maybe- it's a requirement of cablecard certification?


They did look the other way because it was the only way to get a larger drive or some added features.

now with the S3 you can add an eSATA external drive and also some of the features are there now in some form on the TiVo. I think they will have made it much harder to do anthing inside the TiVo - if for no other reason then they have a smoother update path since all boxes will be the same.

I think HD does change everything though, content providers are not so worried about SD but HD they want locked up.


----------



## greg_burns

MichaelK said:


> ANALOG channels (usually below channel 100) will still get encoded by the tivo. So you are looking at a similar quality as you see now.


I've read that the S1's PQ is better than the S2 (better encoding chips?). I wonder if the S3 will be different than the S2 in this regard.


----------



## seattlewendell

MickeS said:


> You're right - the problem is that the cable company doesn't lease you a box for $10/month. They just spread the fees out in their package pricing.


Wrong. Before I had a Comcast DVR I paid $40 per month. Now I pay $55. $5 for HD and $10 for the DVR. When I was remodeling my house for 2 months I turned off those features ans my bill went back to $40. Are you telling me that when I pay $55 Comcast is taking a loss on their programming fee or normal profits to supplemen their DVR profits? Doesn't make sense.


----------



## seattlewendell

Adam1115 said:


> Second, the Comcast TiVo surely won't compete against the high end series 3. Even IF networking and HME are turned on, the thing will only record what, 14 hours? It's very likely that hard drive WON'T be upgradable, and even if it where, you're leasing the box. It's VERY likely that you will be able to upgrade the internal hard drive to a 750 Gig, AND add an external esata...


.......And you looked in to your crystal ball to see this or do you work for Comcast in the new products and/or initiatives department?


----------



## MickeS

seattlewendell said:


> Wrong. Before I had a Comcast DVR I paid $40 per month. Now I pay $55. $5 for HD and $10 for the DVR. When I was remodeling my house for 2 months I turned off those features ans my bill went back to $40. Are you telling me that when I pay $55 Comcast is taking a loss on their programming fee or normal profits to supplemen their DVR profits? Doesn't make sense.


Not sure about your situation, but I think you are a rare case. At least my cable company (Cox) is if not requiring, at least pushing heavily that you get the digital package in order to get HD. When I asked them specifically about this, they told me I had to have digital to get the HD DVR. I'm pretty sure that they do the opposite of what you say; subsidize the DVR costs with programming package prices.

Of course, I might be all wrong, but I find it extremely hard to believe that they can turn a profit or even break even on the cost for the HD DVRs with just the DVR fee.


----------



## MickeS

MichaelK said:


> does that work with unhacked units?
> 
> Personally I'm hoping for MPEG4 playing directly also . I have a camcorder that records quasi-HD in MPEG4. I woiuld prefer to play it as is...


I forgot to mention - I have a Series 2, not the DirecTV version.


----------



## Dan203

booboy97 said:


> How many would you all buy at that price?


I plan on getting at least 2, possibly 3 depending on the discount/rebate situation.

Dan


----------



## greg_burns

Dan203 said:


> I plan on getting at least 2, possibly 3 depending on the discount/rebate situation.


How many HDTV's do you have??

Happy B-day, btw! Where's that S3 you promised us all today?


----------



## ah30k

seattlewendell said:


> Now I pay $55. $5 for HD and $10 for the DVR.


Common problem that the CSRs don't have much incentive to fix. Call them and tell them that you want the $5 HD charge removed. They should. If not, tell them that you don't want any HD service. At this point, the Mot box that does DVR automatically includes HD.


----------



## TiVo Troll

Welshdog said:


> Those of you who perceive the $799 price as "high" need to consider just how many peple there are out there who buy expensive high end AV gear. For now that is the target market. There are so many companies making crazy expensive audio and video equipment - and they seem to be very successful. For example look at this page:
> 
> http://www.ultimateavmag.com/buyersguides/discplayersult/
> 
> Yes that is a $6000 DVD player. Apparently people drop this kind of scratch every day without blinking.
> 
> Some of these folks are going to want a machine like the S3 and I think the market is big enough that Tivo will have some success with it. I can't afford the $6k DVD unit, but I can afford the S3 and will most likely buy one next year. That is AFTER I get a HDTV display and my dream DVD player, the Denon DVD-2930CI which BTW is about the same price as the S3.
> 
> I also think that the S3 to some degree is a proof of concept product and that Tivo will use what they have learned with S3 to make other devices that record HD - eventually at a lower price point. The chipsets that handle digital TV encoding and processing, both SD and HD, will drop in price as more and more people adopt HD.


I routinely chuckle when reading *Stereophile* and views expressed in neverending vowel movements about subjective vs. objective reviewing, the near perfection of six figure speaker systems and five figure turntables and tubes!

Thanks for the link to the standard-def (with upscaling) reference Denon DVD player. I wonder if practically speaking you're not right about bypassing the hi-def DVD format wars for awhile!

Since you're undoubtedly much more familiar with the concept of upscaling than I am can you point me toward an explanation which covers how upscaling images beyond the resolution of the original source creates a better looking picture. Is a hi-def display the weakest link in the chain when dealing with standard-def sources?

I hope that you're also on the right track with regards to referring to Series 3 as TiVo's proof of concept product which may open a path toward lower priced hi-def DVR's. Right now though I'd really like to see a relatively cheap standard-def DVR which could receive digital programming from OTA as well as cable and satellite, even if it meant getting rid of its internal tuner(s) completely and just controlling STB's from whatever source(s) are available.


----------



## TiVo Troll

MickeS said:


> Not sure about your situation, but I think you are a rare case. At least my cable company (Cox) is if not requiring, at least pushing heavily that you get the digital package in order to get HD. When I asked them specifically about this, they told me I had to have digital to get the HD DVR. I'm pretty sure that they do the opposite of what you say; subsidize the DVR costs with programming package prices.
> 
> Of course, I might be all wrong, but I find it extremely hard to believe that they can turn a profit or even break even on the cost for the HD DVRs with just the DVR fee.


I don't know the breakdown of Comcast's revenue stream, but I can confirm that Comcast in my area provides a dual tuner hi-def DVR to anyone who wants DVR service and has any level of digital service. Digital tiers start at around $35. (Comcast's website is coy and doesn't reveal the full skinny on available services!)

Essentially DVR service costs $10. (monthly) with no ongoing commitment and no maintenance. If the DVR is the only STB, that's it; otherwise a $5 additional digital outlet charge is added. The DVR works well and is enjoyable to use. Two programs can be recorded at the same time, but only one program can be watched at a time (i.e. you can't send different programs to two TV's.)


----------



## greg_burns

TiVo Troll said:


> I don't know the breakdown of Comcast's revenue stream, but I can confirm that Comcast in my area provides a dual tuner hi-def DVR to anyone who wants DVR service and has any level of digital service. Digital tiers start at around $35. (Comcast's website is coy and doesn't reveal the full skinny on available services!)


Saw this thread today over at AVS. It says Comcast doesn't even charge for CableCards. :up:



tdifsxs said:


> CableCARD Report Card
> CableCARDs have been trickling into the marketplace, and six of the top MSOs have been asked by the FCC to file quarterly reports detailing their deployment and support. Here is a current scorecard (as of October, 2005 filings) on how many are being deployed and the costs involved.
> 
> Time Warner Cable:
> Current CableCARD customers: 9,240
> Monthly lease rate for CableCARD: $1.75
> Average installation cost: $18.95
> 
> Cablevision:
> Current CableCARD customers: 3,799
> Monthly lease rate for CableCARD: $1.25
> Average installation cost: $34.95
> 
> Adelphia:
> Current CableCARD customers: 5,874
> Monthly price charged for CableCARD: $1.75
> Average installation cost: $40 (price is typically waived.)
> 
> Charter Communications:
> Current CableCARD customers: 3,900
> Monthly lease rate for CableCARD: $1.50
> Average installation cost: $32
> 
> Comcast Cable Communications:
> Current CableCARD customers: 27,875
> Monthly lease rate for CableCARD: $0
> Average installation cost: $23.12
> 
> Cox Communications:
> Current CableCARD customers: 6,895
> Monthly price charged for CableCARD: $1.99
> Average installation cost: $22.91
> 
> Source: NCTA
> 
> WOW, they all do seem to be below $2.00


----------



## MichaelK

greg_burns said:


> I've read that the S1's PQ is better than the S2 (better encoding chips?). I wonder if the S3 will be different than the S2 in this regard.


could be possible that s1 and series 2 had differnt quality but i dont think to 95% of people it would be noticable. I never noticed it.

In thoery the chip inthe series 3 is 5 years newer than the one in the series1 so it should be better, but I think generally it was alright to begin with - serise 1 or series 2.


----------



## MickeS

MichaelK said:


> could be possible that s1 and series 2 had differnt quality but i dont think to 95% of people it would be noticable. I never noticed it.
> 
> In thoery the chip inthe series 3 is 5 years newer than the one in the series1 so it should be better, but I think generally it was alright to begin with - serise 1 or series 2.


IMO the PQ difference is quite noticable between the S1 and S2. I would be surprised if the chip in the S3 was closer to S2 than S1 in picture quality... I'd hope that since these will be hooked to Hi-Def displays, they'd want as good of a SD picture as possible. Especially at that price.


----------



## TiVo Troll

greg_burns said:


> Saw this thread today over at AVS. It says Comcast doesn't even charge for CableCards. :up:


That's true; *Comcast* charges for installation and additional outlets. A DVR requiring 2 CableCARDS is still one outlet; except for two *Dishnetwork DVR's* (and one *Dish STB* as well), no DVR or STB (that I know of) sends two programs at the same time to two TV sets.


----------



## Toeside

MickeS said:


> IMO the PQ difference is quite noticable between the S1 and S2. I would be surprised if the chip in the S3 was closer to S2 than S1 in picture quality... I'd hope that since these will be hooked to Hi-Def displays, they'd want as good of a SD picture as possible. Especially at that price.


The only time the encoder chip will be used is when watching analog cable (unless some of the TiVo-to-go and other features use it). I wonder how many people that will buy/own a Series 3 will use an analog cable feed.


----------



## vman41

Toeside said:


> The only time the encoder chip will be used is when watching analog cable (unless some of the TiVo-to-go and other features use it). I wonder how many people that will buy/own a Series 3 will use an analog cable feed.


I haven't ruled out sticking with analog cable and doing digital OTA for the local stations (ABC,NBC,CBS,Fox,PBS). It's so hard to sort out pricing for the digital tiers.

P.S. My cable company doesn't carry the HD Fox or ABC channels in the stations owner (Sinclair Broadcast Group) wants money to do so.


----------



## greg_burns

Toeside said:


> The only time the encoder chip will be used is when watching analog cable (unless some of the TiVo-to-go and other features use it). I wonder how many people that will buy/own a Series 3 will use an analog cable feed.


But what if you only have 1 CC and it is busy recording a digital channel, then the analog tuner may be used to record a channel < 100. Seems very likely to me (if it works that way).


----------



## MichaelK

ZeoTiVo said:


> They did look the other way because it was the only way to get a larger drive or some added features.
> 
> now with the S3 you can add an eSATA external drive and also some of the features are there now in some form on the TiVo. I think they will have made it much harder to do anthing inside the TiVo - if for no other reason then they have a smoother update path since all boxes will be the same.
> 
> I think HD does change everything though, content providers are not so worried about SD but HD they want locked up.


I think mostly it's about the content providers being worried about digital signal theft.

Giving people an easy way to add storage probably made it easier to do.


----------



## MichaelK

Toeside said:


> The only time the encoder chip will be used is when watching analog cable (unless some of the TiVo-to-go and other features use it). I wonder how many people that will buy/own a Series 3 will use an analog cable feed.


since all the channels below 100 are usually analog- even on digital cable- there will be plenty of analog watching going on. There's plenty of stuff in the 'basic cable' group that people will be watching.


----------



## MichaelK

MickeS said:


> IMO the PQ difference is quite noticable between the S1 and S2. I would be surprised if the chip in the S3 was closer to S2 than S1 in picture quality... I'd hope that since these will be hooked to Hi-Def displays, they'd want as good of a SD picture as possible. Especially at that price.


i believe the original series 1's had a seperate encoder chip. I think the newer versions of series 2 have an integrated "DVR on a chip" from broadcomm. The series3 also has an all in one DVR on a chip so it MIGHT be closer to the seris 2 than the series 1?

But like I said I never noticed myself (but when i went from series1 to series 2 I got a DVD model and record everythign in "extreme" mode- so maybe that's why?)


----------



## musicforme

I'm quite interested in the S3 at $799. Depending on what bonus I get at the end of the year and how much of a tax refund will mostly decide whether I buy a S3 in the first quarter of 2007.

I have plans to put an antenna in my attic and feed it into my Media Center PC and HDTV, so having the ability to record OTA hdtv isn't as much of a bonus for me.

Having the S3 will be my final straw to switch to Verizon's Fios as I'm currently on Time Warner's extended basic cable.


----------



## burnsy

TiVo Troll said:


> ... no DVR or STB (that I know of) sends two programs at the same time to two TV sets.


Qwest Choice TV uses a residential gateway that offers...

"...independent video streams to all three TVs in the home simultaneously."

using VDSL. The STB is from NextLevel (now owned by Motorola). It is only available in VERY limited areas.


----------



## Dan203

greg_burns said:


> How many HDTV's do you have??


I technically have two, as I have a small 17" LCD up stairs that can do HDTV. However I only plan to connect the HD portion to the 50" DLP in the living room. The reason I want so many is because I want to be able to record everything I can in HD, and there are a few nights, namely Thursday, where quite a few good shows are all on at once. I figure two will be enough to get us by, with a S2 for backup, but I might get a third if I feel compelled. 



greg_burns said:


> Happy B-day, btw! Where's that S3 you promised us all today?


Thanks! Apparently I was a few weeks off on my estimate. Although considering I made that guess like 4 months ago I think I came pretty close. 

Dan


----------



## kb7oeb

The qwest box is not a dvr, or a least I have not seen the dvr version. But its otherwise decent

Dishnetwork offers a two tv receiver and several two tv DVRs


----------



## moyekj

MichaelK said:


> since all the channels below 100 are usually analog- even on digital cable- there will be plenty of analog watching going on. There's plenty of stuff in the 'basic cable' group that people will be watching.


 Several cable companies (Comcast and Cox I know for sure) are now digital simulcasting all the analog channel lineup which means when using a digital set top box rented from the cable company or using a CableCard when you tune to a traditionally analog channel (<100) you actually get the digital version now instead. If you use TV NTSC tuner or a non-digital box then you still tune to the analog version of those channels.


----------



## mumpower

With all due respect to the people who are saying they don't mind the price point, it reminds me of the PS3. There is not a single "normal" consumer who looked at the $599 price point for the real system and said, "What a great value!" I am certain that there is truth in the comments that TiVo has a very expensive component being produced here but if the $799 price point is correct, it's outrageous. As a diehard customer, I had been fully expected to buy two of these as soon as they are released. If the price point is $799, I won't even buy one right now. I'll wait for the cost to come down to more feasible levels. 

Having said that, I suspect the $799 is either an MSRP or just a number stuck in the system for now. The Dual Tuner is $249 (excluding rebates). I find it very hard to believe the new device is over triple that since TiVo has to cut deals to sell the $249 unit.


----------



## Dan203

TiVo specifically said they would not subsidize the S3 like they do the S2 units, so that could explain the trippled MSRP. However the original poster did say that this was an MSRP and not the actual sale price of the unit. So it's possible that there is a large wholesale margin and we'll see units actually selling for $100+ less online. We'll just have to wait and see.

As for your comment about not even buying one, after planning on buying two.... How much did you expect them to cost? We have been hearing $500-$800 since CES, so you should have known they wern't going to be cheap.

Dan


----------



## mattack

Tim N. said:


> I have two TIVO's now. The Sony Series one talks to a Motorola STB to receive its picture and the quality is reasonable. The TIVO II is getting its signal directly from the cable (no STB) and the picture quality sucks.


Have you tried different coax cables and/or simply swapped the coax cables between the two units to see if that affected things?

I noticed I was getting much more interference (wavy lines on top of the picture) on USA (Monk, Psych, Dead Zone) on one of my series 1 Tivos than the other. I played around with my cables a bit, and also noticed that one Tivo gets a much better picture (still a bit of interference, but nowhere near as bad and the overall picture is better).

Also try screw-on rather than push on coax connectors. The push on ones seem to be more prone to interference. I intend on playing with my connections some more since I don't get a great signal on CBS (used to), but it's probably at least partially due to my multiple splits of the cable and my coax cables.


----------



## mattack

vman41 said:


> I haven't ruled out sticking with analog cable and doing digital OTA for the local stations (ABC,NBC,CBS,Fox,PBS).


Me too. Not for $800 (at least not without the option of paying for lifetime service, which we no longer have except ebay purchases of cards), but for somewhat lower I would consider it.

I'd also try QAM rather than digital OTA.


----------



## mattack

Lenonn said:


> I'd consider spending the $800 if it got me a free year of service with it.  But, if that price is true, I'll need to think about it quite a bit. I want, I need one, with the new HD tv, but - it's a little much for my wallet.
> 
> However, that's what credit cards are for.


Credit card companies must love you.

-Already mourning for my 5% back (for gas, grocery store, drug store) credit card that I pay off every month that's going to only 2% as of mid-October.


----------



## mfogarty5

Welshdog said:


> Wow, that is cool. My wife would not allow such a subwoofer. She is a total Tivo addict, and last night when I told her how much the S3 was going to cost I didn't get a complaint. Of course I haven't really lined up all the costs for her yet:
> 
> $3000 for flat panel LCD dispaly
> $850 for Denon DVD player
> $800 for S3 + monthly (we are on lifetime right now)
> $300 for HDMI cable to get from the equipment rack to the display.
> $250 for HDMI switcher
> 
> Anyone want to add something else?


Welshdog,

Instead of a Denon DVD player and a HDMI switcher, you should consider getting a cheaper dvd player and a video processor like DVDO instead. In addition to making your DVDs look good and acting as an HDMI switcher, it will de-interlace and upscale all that HD goodness flowing from your new Series3.

Also, get your HDMI cables from monoprice.com


----------



## Lenonn

mattack said:


> Credit card companies must love you.
> 
> -Already mourning for my 5% back (for gas, grocery store, drug store) credit card that I pay off every month that's going to only 2% as of mid-October.


What I was saying was that it's not as difficult to pay off $100 or $200 a month for four to eight months as paying in one fell swoop the full $800. Yeah, I know it's more expensive in the end, but looking at those numbers, which seems easier and less likely to cause you to have a heart attack?


----------



## johnner1999

I have been waiting for the S3 (like everyone else LOL) 

As of this post we have three active S2 Tivo's in our home, one is a dual tuner model. WE LOVE OUR TIVO's - its our only true vise as we don't drink or smoke (not anything wrong with that). So we want a S3 box BUT at $800 its way too much to spend plus the monthly fee... But wait there is more CableVision where I live is moving more SD channels to digital only as of now we don't want to rent a STB and use our tivo (quility stinks for me - plus crappy STB seems to reboot a bunch as we have tried it)... I doubt CableVision will use switched video channels but I don't want to take that chance. 

My question is with Comcast and Cox using Tivo Software I know its only two CC so far but I find it hard to believe that the others won't at least think more due to peer presure - so where does that leave Tivo? 

As much as we love Tivo - I'll be calling DirecTV for an install this week-end and will be calling to drop tivo :-( 


sidenote we have tried the SA8300HD boxes from CableVision - Buggy with out a doubt, in fact I think one my old VCR's had a better program engine LOL. But the PQ and price was OK compaired to $800 if that is in fact the price (which I think it will) 


ok sorry for my rant


----------



## Welshdog

TiVo Troll said:


> I routinely chuckle when reading *Stereophile* and views expressed in neverending vowel movements about subjective vs. objective reviewing, the near perfection of six figure speaker systems and five figure turntables and tubes!


Vowel movement. Nice!



> Thanks for the link to the standard-def (with upscaling) reference Denon DVD player. I wonder if practically speaking you're not right about bypassing the hi-def DVD format wars for awhile!
> 
> can you point me toward an explanation which covers how upscaling images beyond the resolution of the original source creates a better looking picture. Is a hi-def display the weakest link in the chain when dealing with standard-def sources?


 The display is not the weak link unless it is bad at scaling. This article gives you a basic description of scaling. DVD Video Upscaling I couldn't find an article that explains scaling in techincal specifics (nor would I understand it), but here is how I think it works. Scaling is very much a "picking yourself up by your own bootstraps" kind of process. It uses truly innovative mathematics and processing to make a pseudo hi res image from a low res one. It looks at the pixels and makes an educated guess as to what it should look like in hi res. In real time. Combined with the modern image processing chips like those from Silcon Optix scaling/processing can produce a quite nice image. This is what the Denon DVD player does. Scaling done poorly can produce an image I find unwatchable. The scalers built into many HDTV sets are not very good to my eye. Scaling from 480i (DVD) up to 720p looks very good. Scaling from 480i up to 1080i is hit and miss. Some machines to a good job, others fail. It takes a lot of electronic black magic to get a nice looking 1080 image from a lowly 480i DVD. Upscaling of live broadcast signals pretty much always looks bad in HiDef IMO.


----------



## bob61

Stanley Rohner said:


> Why are you WOW! about it costing $800 ?
> 
> The High-Def DIRECTiVo was about $999 when it first came out.
> 
> $799 sounds like a bargain to me considering what it will do.


Not when I look at Comcast costing $9.99 a month for it's HD PVR Tuner. Figuring I save $3 compared to going with Tivo on their second unit rate of $6.95, that's a LONG time (266 months) to recoup the out of pocket to purchase the S3.


----------



## mumpower

Dan203 said:


> As for your comment about not even buying one, after planning on buying two.... How much did you expect them to cost? We have been hearing $500-$800 since CES, so you should have known they wern't going to be cheap.
> 
> Dan


$400...maybe $500. When rumors come out for estimated pricing, they are generally high, sometimes laughably so. At this point, I consider this price only a rumor but it's absurd if they try to sell it at this rate. I put a 400GB and 500GB hard drive into the same system this summer and still only spent half of the cost they are discussing for a 1039 hour unit. A 250 GB unit simply should not cost $800. I can see that as a mod on the board, you are driven to defend this practice but speaking as a TiVo lifer going back to the 14 hour units, this MSRP, if true, will drive away my business.


----------



## smark

Ugh. I don't even think that if I sold both my series two boxes I'd even get a 1/4th of the cost of this sucker.


----------



## mumpower

I have a 738 hour unit I had been planning to list on eBay the instant pre-orders were available for the Series 3. As it stands, I'll either stick with what I've got or, more likely, use the money from the TiVo sale on a PS3. At least I get Blu-Ray with that.


----------



## TiVo Troll

Welshdog said:


> DVD Video Upscaling
> 
> I couldn't find an article that explains scaling in techincal specifics (nor would I understand it), but here is how I think it works. Scaling is very much a "picking yourself up by your own bootstraps" kind of process. It uses truly innovative mathematics and processing to make a pseudo hi res image from a low res one. It looks at the pixels and makes an educated guess as to what it should look like in hi res. In real time. Combined with the modern image processing chips like those from Silcon Optix scaling/processing can produce a quite nice image. This is what the Denon DVD player does. Scaling done poorly can produce an image I find unwatchable. The scalers built into many HDTV sets are not very good to my eye. Scaling from 480i (DVD) up to 720p looks very good. Scaling from 480i up to 1080i is hit and miss.


Thanks.


----------



## gthassell

I plan to sell my upgraded Humax T-800 (non-DVD) @ 176 hrs (with Lifetime) - and use my Amex with the Low Price Guarantee to buy me 60 days of price protection. Throw on top of that a Best Buy rewardzone card - yes, I hate BBY, but I am a "devil" customer - so I'll give them a chance to earn back a little of the money that they lost on the Sony Bravia I bought from them WELL below retail, and I should come out OK. I certainly won't need to be able to record 4 programs at once.....

Or... I may just use Amex points to fund the purchase...

Anyway, just counting the days til the Series 3!


----------



## msu2k

bob61 said:


> Not when I look at Comcast costing $9.99 a month for it's HD PVR Tuner. Figuring I save $3 compared to going with Tivo on their second unit rate of $6.95, that's a LONG time (266 months) to recoup the out of pocket to purchase the S3.


I just couldn't live with the small amount of storage space on the Comcast with no possiblity of upgrading it. It's just barely an apples to oranges comparison when it comes to the S3.



> "According to Comcast representatives, it can hold 10 to 15 hours of HD programming."


Are you kidding me? No way could I go back to that few hours on my PVR. Quite honestly, I'm surprised that any Tivo diehard could. Even if I had multiple Comcast Tivos sharing shows back and forth throughout my house, I'd need like 5 of those at that size.

Having said that, if they'd just let you upgrade the storage space on the Comcast box, I'd get one in a heartbeat.


----------



## JDAWG11

*Rumor verified*, _sorry if this was already mentioned...I don't have time to read all the posts._ I work at BB as well and I just checked our system. $799 is correct and our cost is a little over $500. The in-stock date actually showed 8/25 but there is no sign of stock anytime soon. Ohh yeah...we're hiring if you want to get the discount!


----------



## jfh3

JDAWG11 said:


> *Rumor verified*, _sorry if this was already mentioned...I don't have time to read all the posts._ I work at BB as well and I just checked our system. $799 is correct and our cost is a little over $500. The in-stock date actually showed 8/25 but there is no sign of stock anytime soon. Ohh yeah...we're hiring if you want to get the discount!


What's the employee discount?


----------



## JDAWG11

5% over cost


----------



## dylanursula

if it is $500 cost i really dont think it will be any cheaper then $800 on day 1 thru 90 unless there are rebates. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Bierboy

JDAWG11 said:


> 5% over cost


Hmmm.....$525 (or thereabouts)....I'm thinking I need a second job....temporarily....


----------



## DCIFRTHS

jfh3 said:


> ... 250GB isn't that big when recording hidef - around 30 hours. And the cost difference between a 120 or 160 drive and a 250 drive at wholesale wouldn't be enough to drop the retail price by 1/2.


IMO, 250GB should be the smallest drive available for recording HD.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

JDAWG11 said:


> 5% over cost


Nice 

What would you say typical markup on computer and AV stuff at BB is?


----------



## JDAWG11

computer equipment is not a high mark up at all, we usually lose money on any sale items...but accessories and services is where we make it back up. TVs and Monster Cable is where the real money is.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

JDAWG11 said:


> computer equipment is not a high mark up at all, we usually lose money on any sale items...but accessories and services is where we make it back up. TVs and Monster Cable is where the real money is.


Are TVs in the 30% range?


----------



## mumpower

JDAWG11 said:


> computer equipment is not a high mark up at all, we usually lose money on any sale items...


Given this acknowledgement, wouldn't that indicate the Series 3 will be much closer to the purchase price than the MSRP?


----------



## JDAWG11

roughly


----------



## JDAWG11

I would say it will be $799 with some sort of rebate, our price usually dosen't stray from what the system tells us. I'm worried their going to bump up the tivo service fee for HD...anyone hear any word of this?


----------



## btwyx

blipszyc said:


> Why did they go with such a large hard drive out of the gate.


It isn't big, it'll need upgrading.


----------



## jfh3

JDAWG11 said:


> I'm worried their going to bump up the tivo service fee for HD...anyone hear any word of this?


That wouldn't make any sense ... not like there will be an "HD unique" service features. Besides, Tivo already has enough pricing models and resulting confusion - they don't need to add to it by having different price points just because the service happens to run on a Series 3.


----------



## JDAWG11

I agree and hope your right. I just can't wait to see what functionality the software brings.


----------



## Welshdog

btwyx said:


> It isn't big, it'll need upgrading.


No it's not big at all. We use XServe Raids on our Final Cut systems at work. THAT's big. Even so we fill them up all the time.

I want one at home - all those blue LEDs are cool.


----------



## generalpatton71

Well I hope they have a service agreement deal or something, because 800$ is just to mutch right now. I have 2 hr10-250s and will probably now just get the HR20 and wait for a special on the S3 or something.


----------



## aztivo

Welshdog said:


> I want one at home - all those blue LEDs are cool.


Blue LEDs??? I think you are thinking of the HR20??


----------



## Welshdog

aztivo said:


> Blue LEDs??? I think you are thinking of the HR20??


 Sorry I was unclear - I meant the Xserve raid. I had a facetiousness failure.


----------



## 1283

If you think $799 for the hardware is too much, lifetime cards were sold for over $800 a piece tonight. "Nancy" just increased the price from $760 (I think) to $830.


----------



## jfh3

c3 said:


> If you think $799 for the hardware is too much, lifetime cards were sold for over $800 a piece tonight. "Nancy" just increased the price from $760 (I think) to $830.


Damn. Still can't believe I left 4 cards on the shelf a few months back. (The ironic thing is that the seller that just got $1650 for two cards bought 4 cards from the same store I did about 28 hours later).

Two cards for $1650. Wow!

Interesting how Tivo pegged the value of a Series 3 with lifetime for $1500 for purposes of disclosure during the Idol Speculation contest.

Lifetime had been going for $700 on eBay. $800 for the box. Makes you wonder how many people would actually pay $1500 if it were available at retail.


----------



## kb7oeb

People are nuts to pay that much for lifetime.


----------



## btwyx

kb7oeb said:


> People are nuts to pay that much for lifetime.


Monthly service is currently $12.95, if you pay $800 for lifetime, you're getting almost 20% return on your investment. I wish I could get 20% returns, also that return can only go up as TiVo service gets more expensive.


----------



## 1283

btwyx said:


> Monthly service is currently $12.95, if you pay $800 for lifetime, you're getting almost 20% return on your investment.


huh? 20% return means keeping the unit for over 6 years. 20% over 6 years is nothing. You can do better in a liquid savings account.


----------



## generalpatton71

c3 said:


> huh? 20% return means keeping the unit for over 6 years. 20% over 6 years is nothing. You can do better in a liquid savings account.


Not to mention the multi service discount to 6.95.


----------



## btwyx

c3 said:


> huh? 20% return means keeping the unit for over 6 years. 20% over 6 years is nothing. You can do better in a liquid savings account.


I think you may be missing something. $12.95/month is $155.40/year. 155.40/800 is 20% per year, every year, for evermore (assuming you use TiVo for evermore).

Tell me one liquid savings account which pays 20% pa.


----------



## 1283

What if the hardware dies within 6 years? I would gamble for 2-3 years, but not 6.


----------



## btwyx

c3 said:


> What if the hardware dies within 6 years? I would gamble for 2-3 years, but not 6.


The you can still make 10% from the MSD. Is lifetime not transferrable anymore? I've never had to subscribe to TiVo directly, so I'm not familiar with how it goes.


----------



## 1283

btwyx said:


> The you can still make 10% from the MSD. Is lifetime not transferrable anymore?


Lifetime cannot be transferred to another unit unless it's repaired/replaced by authorized agent. MSD does not apply unless the full-rate unit calls home every 6 months.


----------



## mikesay98

All these people with lifetime subscription cards on eBay may be saving them to BUY S3 and then add the lifetime on, and sell that as a package on eBay. Seeing as the S3 might already be $799, how much do you think they'd go for then? How much would YOU be willing to pay? Some people have to have some sort of price limit, but others here seem to have no limit


----------



## nhaigh

While I do intend to get the S3 right away I also think it will be upgraded within a few years. Don't people think there will be a CC2.0 version or something that will come next year. If there is then a lot of people may want to upgrade. 

I'm simply not trying to justify the cost to myself. I recognise the fact I want an HD TiVo and that it is expensive but it is a luxury I'm happy to pay for.


----------



## TiVo Troll

mattack said:


> Credit card companies must love you.
> 
> -Already mourning for my 5% back (for gas, grocery store, drug store) credit card that I pay off every month that's going to only 2% as of mid-October.


Yeah, but now it includes utilities, "including cable"!


----------



## TiVo Troll

jfh3 said:


> Damn. Still can't believe I left 4 cards on the shelf a few months back. (The ironic thing is that the seller that just got $1650 for two cards bought 4 cards from the same store I did about 28 hours later).
> 
> Two cards for $1650. Wow!
> 
> Interesting how Tivo pegged the value of a Series 3 with lifetime for $1500 for purposes of disclosure during the Idol Speculation contest.
> 
> Lifetime had been going for $700 on eBay. $800 for the box. Makes you wonder how many people would actually pay $1500 if it were available at retail.


There's something fishy, 'er, UNUSUAL, about that deal. It appeared to be pre-set up in advance. I was looking right at the listing when the "Buy It Now" came in. Megazone (zoneryrie) held the high bid on one of those cards unitil the seller cancelled the listing a little more than 3 hours earlier. I don't remember seeing any other eBay listing on which a card sold for more than $800.

The other card megazone had bid on has been bid up to $520 now by another bidder, with a day and a half to go.


----------



## TiVo Troll

c3 said:


> What if the hardware dies within 6 years? I would gamble for 2-3 years, but not 6.


Why wouldn't you just replace the HD?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

btwyx said:


> I think you may be missing something. $12.95/month is $155.40/year. 155.40/800 is 20% per year, every year, for evermore (assuming you use TiVo for evermore).
> 
> Tell me one liquid savings account which pays 20% pa.


But that return is a service not actual money. I may well not want the service on that box after x number of years. That has to be factored in as well.

would you pay 800$ for a Series 2 DT lifetime right now? Most likely not because HD and cable card will supplant that within a very short time. Heck I would not have paid 299 for lifetime on my DT (I am looking at 6.95 in my case) and indeed did not for 540 box.

I still look at it from the duration side 800/12.95 = 5 years and then decide if I will use my box for more than 5 years. With an MSD pushing that out to 9.5 years then it is an easy call for me.


----------



## PhillyGuy

btwyx said:


> Monthly service is currently $12.95, if you pay $800 for lifetime, you're getting almost 20% return on your investment. I wish I could get 20% returns, also that return can only go up as TiVo service gets more expensive.


You are not getting a "return" from your investment because you'll never get your principle back. The accurate way to think about it is that you'll break even in 5 to 10 years at 12.95 and 6.95 respectively. After that, you'll start to reap the benefit of having the lifetime. That's not even counting the interest that you could be accuring during this period.


----------



## btwyx

c3 said:


> Lifetime cannot be transferred to another unit unless it's repaired/replaced by authorized agent.


So lifetime can be transferred if your unit dies. What's the problem?


----------



## Turtleboy

btwyx said:


> So lifetime can be transferred if your unit dies. What's the problem?


Within the warranty period.


----------



## btwyx

PhillyGuy said:


> You are not getting a "return" from your investment because you'll never get your principle back.


A. It doesn't matter if you use the service forever, if you don't want to use the service forever, you can calculate the rate with a rate of return and return of principle over a timescale you like. It'll still be a good rate.

And b, you can get your principle back. That's why lifetimed units sell for so much, that's your return of principle.

The point was, someone said it was crazy to pay that much, it isn't. It makes sound financial sense.


----------



## lessd

PhillyGuy said:


> You are not getting a "return" from your investment because you'll never get your principle back. The accurate way to think about it is that you'll break even in 5 to 10 years at 12.95 and 6.95 respectively. After that, you'll start to reap the benefit of having the lifetime. That's not even counting the interest that you could be accuring during this period.


With Series 2 you do get your principle back, two years back I got a series 2 for about $70 + $299 for lifetime, (had to wait 12 weeks for my $150 rebate) sold it on E-Bay in May for $465 and bought a Series 2 DT for $100 + $299 lifetime (just got my rebate back for the DT) (special lifetime deal for the DT that has ended now), what a great deal. But at the current price on lifetime gift cards its not as much a no brainier.


----------



## btwyx

ZeoTiVo said:


> would you pay 800$ for a Series 2 DT lifetime right now?


I woulddn't pay anything for an S2, I have zero interest in an analog TiVo. An S3 on the other hand is interesting.


----------



## cwoody222

Turtleboy said:


> Within the warranty period.


My Series2, which was bought way back when the S2 first came out (I transferred my lifetime from a S1 during a limited time they offered that) just died a few weeks ago. It was way outside the warranty. They transfered my lifetime to a new S2 unit (that TiVo provided me for about $50).

So - while not official - they do do it. I didn't even have to try hard to get that deal... they offered it to me.


----------



## ah30k

btwyx said:


> Monthly service is currently $12.95, if you pay $800 for lifetime, you're getting almost 20% return on your investment. I wish I could get 20% returns, also that return can only go up as TiVo service gets more expensive.


How in the world do you define '20% return on your investment'? Most people define return on investment as laying out $x and getting your original $x back plus some premium in the future. I just don't see any "return" here at all.

A 20% return on your investment means that you can sell the lifetime in two years for something like $800 + $160 + $192 = $1152.

If you really think you can sell your lifetime for $1152 in two years, I'll buy your argument of %20 return.


----------



## btwyx

ah30k said:


> How in the world do you define '20% return on your investment'?


Its covered in posts above. Start with $800, and intend to use TiVo service (for a long time).

Pay $800 for life time, don't pay $12.95 a month to TiVo. When you want your principal back, sell TiVo with lifetime for $800 premium.

Compare to this situation:

Put $800 in bank account paying 20% pa. Receive $12.95/month in interest, pay $12.95 to TiVo for TiVo service. When you want your principal back, withdraw money.

How is this not like getting a 20% return on your money? I have several investments which pay me a certain amount each month at a % equivalent to some anual rate. None of them pay anywhere near 20%.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

btwyx said:


> I woulddn't pay anything for an S2, I have zero interest in an analog TiVo. An S3 on the other hand is interesting.


yes and that can mess with your calculation as the value of a unit gets obsoleted and resell becomes less of an option. The value is all in the service and not in the hardware itself after a certain point.


----------



## ah30k

btwyx said:


> Its covered in posts above. Start with $800, and intend to use TiVo service (for a long time).
> 
> Pay $800 for life time, don't pay $12.95 a month to TiVo. When you want your principal back, sell TiVo with lifetime for $800 premium.
> 
> Compare to this situation:
> 
> Put $800 in bank account paying 20% pa. Receive $12.95/month in interest, pay $12.95 to TiVo for TiVo service. When you want your principal back, withdraw money.
> 
> How is this not like getting a 20% return on your money? I have several investments which pay me a certain amount each month at a % equivalent to some anual rate. None of them pay anywhere near 20%.


Sounds like an arbitrage opportunity to me! Unless of course you can't sell your lifetime-S3 for $1600 ($800 unit + $800 lifetime) in the future. If you can only sell it for $1200 (perhaps still a stretch) you would be getting -5% return on your investment. Consider the risks associated with each investment, that would explain the premium. I can invest in a federally backed financial instrument and get 3% or so. I can invest in a TiVo Lifetime financial instrument and may get +20% if I can sell the unit for $1600 in one year or I may lose 5% if I can only sell it for $1200. I really think the risks of selling a TiVo are pretty high.


----------



## TexasAg

btwyx said:


> Its covered in posts above. Start with $800, and intend to use TiVo service (for a long time).
> 
> Pay $800 for life time, don't pay $12.95 a month to TiVo. When you want your principal back, sell TiVo with lifetime for $800 premium.
> 
> Compare to this situation:
> 
> Put $800 in bank account paying 20% pa. Receive $12.95/month in interest, pay $12.95 to TiVo for TiVo service. When you want your principal back, withdraw money.
> 
> How is this not like getting a 20% return on your money? I have several investments which pay me a certain amount each month at a % equivalent to some anual rate. None of them pay anywhere near 20%.


You're nuts if you think anyone will pay you $800 in 2-3 years just for lifetime service, plus whatever price you ask for the box. Most consumers won't even remember that Tivo offered lifetime, and those that do won't pay $800 up front to save $13/month. This will be particularly true since:
(1) the lifetime is tied to the box, and the box is already 2-3 old.
(2) in 2-3 years, Tivo hopefully will be introducing the new Series 4 with SDV/PPV/VOD/CC 2.0 capabilities.


----------



## btwyx

ah30k said:


> Sounds like an arbitrage opportunity to me! Unless of course you can't sell your lifetime-S3 for $1600 ($800 unit + $800 lifetime) in the future. If you can only sell it for $1200 (perhaps still a stretch) you would be getting -50% return on your investment.


No you wouldn't. You seem to have great difficulty in calculating monthly income in rate off return.

Also in your above example, you do not include enough information to calculate the rate of return on the lifetime. Your above example comprises 2 elements, the hardware, and the lifetime. The hardware is expected to devalue, so you need to say how much you could sell a non lifetime S3 for at that time. If you could sell a non lifetime for $400 at that time, you're getting $800 for the lifetime. That's a return on pricipal on the lifetime. You've also in the meantime been earning the 20% (you find so difficult to understand) on that $800.


----------



## ah30k

btwyx said:


> No you wouldn't. You seem to have great difficulty in calculating monthly income in rate off return.
> 
> Also in your above example, you do not include enough information to calculate the rate of return on the lifetime. Your above example comprises 2 elements, the hardware, and the lifetime. The hardware is expected to devalue, so you need to say how much you could sell a non lifetime S3 for at that time. If you could sell a non lifetime for $400 at that time, you're getting $800 for the lifetime. That's a return on pricipal on the lifetime. You've also in the meantime been earning the 20% (you find so difficult to understand) on that $800.


OK, I had an error in my spreadsheet. You would lose -6% ...

Investment
($800)

Monthly Income (or lack of expense if you will)
$12.95

Yearly Income (or lack of expense if you will)
$155.40

Assume two years of service then sell the lifetime for $400
$400

This equates to a IRR of -6% for two years


----------



## ah30k

BTYX,
I have a better idea. Please check my math according to your methods. If I gave you an opportunity to earn 15% for two years would you take it?

I'll sell you my grandfathered lifetime Tivo (almost equivalent to a lifetime gift card) for $1000. You can reap a 16% return for two years and then sell the unit for $1000. You can paypal me the $1000 and I'll ship you the grandfathered unit. 

ah30k


----------



## Welshdog

btwyx said:


> Also in your above example, you do not include enough information to calculate the rate of return on the lifetime. Your above example comprises 2 elements, the hardware, and the lifetime. The hardware is expected to devalue, so you need to say how much you could sell a non lifetime S3 for at that time. If you could sell a non lifetime for $400 at that time, you're getting $800 for the lifetime. That's a return on pricipal on the lifetime. You've also in the meantime been earning the 20% (you find so difficult to understand) on that $800.


BTWYX I thought you worked for Apple? Are you an accountant there?

It's all pops and clicks to me . . . when the box comes out I'll just buy it and watch it and not ever ever ever think about the money.


----------



## Havanese_boy

Here is a great chance to "win" back all the customers who are using other cable DVRs..I just hope the price doesn't keep them ( and me ) away.


----------



## jfh3

TiVo Troll said:


> There's something fishy, 'er, UNUSUAL, about that deal. It appeared to be pre-set up in advance. I was looking right at the listing when the "Buy It Now" came in. Megazone (zoneryrie) held the high bid on one of those cards unitil the seller cancelled the listing a little more than 3 hours earlier. I don't remember seeing any other eBay listing on which a card sold for more than $800.
> 
> The other card megazone had bid on has been bid up to $520 now by another bidder, with a day and a half to go.


I agree - looks like the buyer contacted the seller, made an incredible offer and then the seller cancelled the other auctions to set up one with a buy it now price for two cards.

If I were a bidder on either of the original auctions, I'd compain to eBay. Sure looks like the seller abused the system.

We've come a long way since we saw the outrage when cards first went for sale at $499 on eBay.

$299 for lifetime - deal. $499 for lifetime for lifetime - maybe deal. But $825?
Can't see that, even if you only have one Tivo and would be avoiding $12.95/month.

Be interesting to see if $825 is an anomaly or a new floor.


----------



## Glich

ouch... i was hoping for 399.99 o well. I still have my free lifetime trasfer (yes i have had my 13 hour for that long) I will prob wit 60 days to make sure there not blowing up then get one. (maby i will wait til after xmas and get an open item on at best buy)


----------



## 1283

TiVo Troll said:


> Why wouldn't you just replace the HD?


I would, but sometimes that's not the only thing broken. All of my TiVos have lifetime, but at $299 or less.


----------



## bidger

btwyx said:


> I woulddn't pay anything for an S2, I have zero interest in an analog TiVo. An S3 on the other hand is interesting.


You don't watch any SD shows? I know I do and that's why I keep one because I don't want to waste any HdD space on the HD-TiVo with SD shows.

Plus, if you have a Lifetime unit, adding the HD-TiVo would only cost $6.95/mo. service-wise...provided we don't hear anything different when TiVo gets around to announcing the release.

Considering the info splashed all over these boards, I would think that time should be soon.


----------



## 1283

TiVo Troll said:


> There's something fishy, 'er, UNUSUAL, about that deal.


What's more strange is that there is a card with buy-it-now of $695 (still there). The buyer paid a lot more than that. However, that's not the first time I have seen eBay buyers "choosing" to pay a lot more for identical items.


----------



## joey398

I'm a little confused.

I actually have a Series 1 Tivo (sitting in a closet collecting dust) that I got a Lifetime Subscription at the time. 

Would I be able to un-mothball the unit and actually transfer the Lifetime Sub to the S3 when it comes out?

I definatly will be buying the S3 when it comes out, as I am subjected to the "nuances" of the Cablevision DVR at this point in time ( I use this due to I have a 52" Toshiba HDTV). I so hate the cablevision software, I am counting the days till the S3 release. My family just asked me this past week what I wanted for my birthday, and I told them nothing....except...y'all can chip in and buy me the new S3 when its available.  Since I did not get any gifts, I think that will happen. YAY!


----------



## ah30k

joey398 said:


> I'm a little confused.
> 
> I actually have a Series 1 Tivo (sitting in a closet collecting dust) that I got a Lifetime Subscription at the time.
> 
> Would I be able to un-mothball the unit and actually transfer the Lifetime Sub to the S3 when it comes out?
> 
> I definatly will be buying the S3 when it comes out, as I am subjected to the "nuances" of the Cablevision DVR at this point in time ( I use this due to I have a 52" Toshiba HDTV). I so hate the cablevision software, I am counting the days till the S3 release. My family just asked me this past week what I wanted for my birthday, and I told them nothing....except...y'all can chip in and buy me the new S3 when its available.  Since I did not get any gifts, I think that will happen. YAY!


Yes, but only if your lifetime was purchased prior to Jan xx of 2000 (someone can confirm this date).


----------



## greg_burns

joey398 said:


> Would I be able to un-mothball the unit and actually transfer the Lifetime Sub to the S3 when it comes out?


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723


> Grandfather transfer: The one-time "Grandfather transfer" (for people who purchased Product Lifetime on or before January 21, 2000 [as in, more than six years ago], and who have not already used their one-time transfer) is still allowed and will also be honored for future hardware releases from TiVo, such as the Series3. If you have any trouble when you call, please mention KDB code 09-07-04 to the agent.


----------



## joey398

I just logged on to Tivo.com and actually remembered my login information for my account. It appears that the lifetime subscription was purchased on May 13, 2000. Oh my God....so close and yet so far. So, I guess I am SOL with transfering it right?


----------



## ah30k

Close but no cigar!!

Thanks for playing!

Seriously though, I feel bad for ya.


----------



## bwhaler

I'm OK with the $700 price.

But here's why I am not buying one:

Here is the real cost:

1. $700

2. $19.95 each and every month while I own the box

3. Advertisements in the interface

4. Advertisements when fast forwarding 

THAT'S the real cost.

At $700, Tivo should be able to sell the box at a profit and that be the end of it. I would pay $700, and be happy. Hell, I would pay more if it included a lifetime subscription.

But the monthly fees are insulting. And the fact that my Tivo is going to push MORE advertisements at me is a deal killer. 

I don't need to drop that kind of money to see more ads. I'll be happy with my crappy, terrible Motorola box. Sure, it sucks, but its 5 bucks, and I get less ads.


----------



## bidger

bwhaler said:


> I'll be happy with my crappy, terrible Motorola box. Sure, it sucks, but its 5 bucks, and I get less ads.


And you don't think there's any chance that could change?


----------



## dylanursula

bidger said:


> And you don't think there's any chance that could change?


It could; but to date has not changed to approx. $800


----------



## btwyx

bidger said:


> You don't watch any SD shows?


I watch plenty, but they're all delivered digitally.


----------



## btwyx

Welshdog said:


> BTWYX I thought you worked for Apple? Are you an accountant there?


I do, but not as an accountant.

The money's just a simple bit of math, now others are arguing about the assumptions and the risk, but they seem to think they're arguing about the maths.


----------



## SnakeEyes

Bierboy said:


> I have exactly $800 right now, stashed in a drawer for this.


Do yourself a favor and TiVo the show "It Takes a Thief"


----------



## etsolow

bwhaler said:


> 2. $12.95 each and every month while I own the box


Where are people getting this $13/mo service price?

According to TiVo's website the monthly plans currently range from $16.95 to $19.95, depending on commitment length. Has there been an announcement or implication that the S3 rates will be lower? Or are people referring to a prepay when they quote this $13/mo?

E


----------



## Bierboy

SnakeEyes said:


> Do yourself a favor and TiVo the show "It Takes a Thief"


Dude....I just checked and it's GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## greg_burns

etsolow said:


> Where are people getting this $13/mo service price?
> 
> According to TiVo's website the monthly plans currently range from $16.95 to $19.95, depending on commitment length. Has there been an announcement or implication that the S3 rates will be lower? Or are people referring to a prepay when they quote this $13/mo?
> 
> E


Those higher prices include the cost of the box spread over time. Buying at retail and you only have to pay for service; $12.95 or MSD $6.95.


----------



## Bierboy

etsolow said:


> Where are people getting this $13/mo service price?
> 
> According to TiVo's website the monthly plans currently range from $16.95 to $19.95, depending on commitment length. Has there been an announcement or implication that the S3 rates will be lower? Or are people referring to a prepay when they quote this $13/mo?
> 
> E


My current S2 is $12.95/month. When I get the S3, I'll either MSD it at $6.95/month or drop my S2 and put my S3 on the current $12.95/month.


----------



## ah30k

btwyx said:


> The money's just a simple bit of math, now others are arguing about the assumptions and the risk, but they seem to think they're arguing about the maths.


I'm pointing out the sensitivity of your math. If your return on investment drops from +20% to -7% when the value of your lifetime drops from $800 resale value to $400 resale value after two years, you'd be foolish to jump into it without at least understanding the risks.


----------



## mwarner

bwhaler said:


> I'm OK with the $700 price.
> 
> But here's why I am not buying one:
> 
> Here is the real cost:
> 
> 1. $700
> 
> 2. $12.95 each and every month while I own the box
> 
> 3. Advertisements in the interface
> 
> 4. Advertisements when fast forwarding


You know, the monthly service fee may not be $12.95/month. If TiVo is no longer subsidizing the box and thus, making a profit on each sale, do they really need to charge you $12.95 per month? Just a thought...

-Matt


----------



## TexasAg

mwarner said:


> You know, the monthly service fee may not be $12.95/month. If TiVo is no longer subsidizing the box and thus, making a profit on each sale, do they really need to charge you $12.95 per month? Just a thought...
> 
> -Matt


They technically don't NEED to, but I'd bet they do.


----------



## Dan203

I seriously doubt they will change the $12.95 and $6.95MSD prices specifically for the S3. It would just create too much confusion. However they could make the budled pricing lower then expected. I wouldn't be surprised to see the hardware upgrade charge be as low as $300, with the same monthly fees, for the bundles.

Dan


----------



## amjustice

Dan203 said:


> I seriously doubt they will change the $12.95 and $6.95MSD prices specifically for the S3. It would just create too much confusion. However they could make the budled pricing lower then expected. I wouldn't be surprised to see the hardware upgrade charge be as low as $300, with the same monthly fees, for the bundles.
> 
> Dan


That would be awesome, I hope you are right Dan!


----------



## Turtleboy

From Shanan's latest email:



> Meanwhile, keep your eyes peeled over the next few weeks for a defining moment, oh yes. Watch your e-mail Inbox. Your TiVo Central screen. The twinkling eyes of your best TiVo friend.


----------



## jsmeeker

I'm watching! I'm Watching!!!


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

joey398 said:


> I just logged on to Tivo.com and actually remembered my login information for my account. It appears that the lifetime subscription was purchased on May 13, 2000. Oh my God....so close and yet so far. So, I guess I am SOL with transfering it right?


Tell me about it, both of my lifetime units were activited in second quarter of 2000....... Arghhhhhhh. Actually, I have three lifetime units but the last is a DTiVo which is OBE.


----------



## MichaelK

moyekj said:


> Several cable companies (Comcast and Cox I know for sure) are now digital simulcasting all the analog channel lineup which means when using a digital set top box rented from the cable company or using a CableCard when you tune to a traditionally analog channel (<100) you actually get the digital version now instead. If you use TV NTSC tuner or a non-digital box then you still tune to the analog version of those channels.


hence i said "usually"

Not many places have gone that route- although I believe comcast says they plan to do that everywhere?


----------



## MichaelK

joey398 said:


> I'm a little confused.
> 
> I actually have a Series 1 Tivo (sitting in a closet collecting dust) that I got a Lifetime Subscription at the time.
> 
> Would I be able to un-mothball the unit and actually transfer the Lifetime Sub to the S3 when it comes out?
> 
> I definatly will be buying the S3 when it comes out, as I am subjected to the "nuances" of the Cablevision DVR at this point in time ( I use this due to I have a 52" Toshiba HDTV). I so hate the cablevision software, I am counting the days till the S3 release. My family just asked me this past week what I wanted for my birthday, and I told them nothing....except...y'all can chip in and buy me the new S3 when its available.  Since I did not get any gifts, I think that will happen. YAY!


at a minimum plug it back in to a phone line and have it call in every six months- that will allow you to get the series 3 monthly fee for half price with the mutltu box discount.


----------



## mattack

Is there a decoder ring for serial # to manufacture date? (I know that doesn't directly correspond to lifetime sub date.)

I may have checked this out in the past, but one of my Tivos was bought as a known busted unit (it was the normal bad hard drive thing) and had lifetime.

Having vague deja vu that someone provided a decoder ring long ago.

(My S1 isn't officially on my account. It seemed like too much of a bother to waste the phone people's time to track down the orig owner & transfer it, esp since the S1s don't give any benefits like transferring shows between units. Remember, this was a broken unit, bought through a web company.)


----------



## megazone

drew2k said:


> I agree with you. I also wonder where those who say TiVo announced this is not for the average consumer got their info from. Is it on TiVo's web site somewhere? In FCC filings? Where and when did TiVo announce that the S3 is for the above-average or high-end consumer? Wouldn't shareholders be a little upset at that, as shouldn't TiVo be marketing to the masses, and not just the technophiles?


They've stated that a number of times now. It was definitely the party line at CES 2006 when I was there. And they've repeated it, such as on their quarterly conference calls, and at other events - such as here where it is a 'high end product'.


----------



## megazone

Riverdome said:


> _"TCD648250B"_
> 
> So what ever happened to the "A" model? Is there a possibility of another unit that may be priced differently?


Perhaps in time. But an 'A' to 'B' change is usually something minor, like a chip change, etc. The box at CES was a TCD648250. The first one certified by Cable Labs was TCD648250A. Then that was updated to TCD648250B. Sounds like minor changes during development. Perhaps some part proved unreliable and needed changing, or a supplier end of lifed a part and they had to switch to a newer one, etc. But note that they're all 250GB boxes.


----------



## megazone

dig_duggler said:


> _And they aren't "farming out their software" - they are developing versions for other hardware platforms_
> 
> That's farming out your software. Only tivo's most valuble asset and all...


You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ;-)

'Farming out' means giving the work to someone else. So if you say Company A is farming out their software to Company B, it means they're having Company B write their software for them. NOT that they're licensing their software to Company B to use.

In fact, it'd be the opposite. Company B is farming out their software development to Company A by licensing their software.

TiVo is not farming out their software. They do farm out their hardware development, hiring companies to build the hardware for them.


----------



## megazone

danieljanderson said:


> What are the chances that TiVo will use the same pricing model they currently use on the SD models?
> 
> ....$20.00 per month. No upfront hardware cost.


Right now the bundles are based around the single tuner S2. If you want an 80-hour S2DT it is $30 up front, then you pay for the bundle. For a 180-hour S2DT it is $130, plus bundle. The DRT400 used to be more, but it doesn't look like they sell that anymore.

The S3 will probably follow the same pattern - some up-front cost, plus the bundle. Based on comparisons with retail the bundled value of the hardware seems to be about $70. Which would put the S3 at $729, plus bundle. But maybe they'll have other bundle options for it.


----------



## Adam1115

seattlewendell said:


> .......And you looked in to your crystal ball to see this or do you work for Comcast in the new products and/or initiatives department?


What are you talking about? The TiVo upgrade is a SOFTWARE upgrade to an EXISTING product.

Unless you know of a way they could "PUSH OUT" a bigger hard drive via a software update?


----------



## megazone

blipszyc said:


> For me $799 is too much. For others, perhaps not. But what I want to know is why does it have to be $799. Why did they go with such a large hard drive out of the gate.


250GB is only 25-35 hours of HD content. And the hard drive isn't going to be a huge cost factor, as others have said. If they dropped to a 160GB drive, you'd be talking about 15-20 hours of HD, but you wouldn't save a lot. Checking PriceWatch.com, the best price on a 250GB SATA drive is $62.99, 160GB is $54.69. $8.30 difference. And TiVo buys wholesale, those are retail prices. If anything I think there may be a 500GB model in the future.

Prices WILL come down. They always do. So if $800 is too much for you - wait. In a few months it'll probably be lower, maybe after the holidays. And there may be sales and specials to push them during the holiday shopping season.

The Pioneer DVR-810H was $1200 MSRP when it shipped. They were available online immediately for more like $1000. I bought mine a couple of months later for just over $700. A year later they were under $400, and I've seen them for less.

If $800 is the MSRP, the wholesale cost is less than that. And there will be online discount resellers who charge less and make a smaller margin. I pretty much never buy electronics at retail - I just got my new HDTV for $2785, Best Buy wants something like $3300 or $3400, on sale. If, as was posted above, the merchant's cost is $500 - I won't be surprised to see it for $650 shortly after launch.


----------



## megazone

booboy97 said:


> Anyways, I would have to be in the market for 3 S3s if I ditched Sat (I'll live with SD on the final unit).
> 
> 3 units at $799/each is pretty steep. Not sure what I'll do.
> 
> How many would you all buy at that price?


It depends on what you can afford. Personally I'd probably buy one for my main set, and then buy more when the price drops in the future. But I just dropped $3k on a new TV and stand, and plan to get an S3 and PS3 to use with it. So I'm tapped.


----------



## megazone

Tim N. said:


> Thanks for the reply. Is there any way to get a better signal from the cable? What is the Mot Box doing to make the picture noticeably better? Is there someway I can duplicate whatever the STB is doing? I hate the thought of buying an S3 and then feeling the quality sucks on non-HD channels.


I'd try the TiVo on the feed that is feeding your STB now. If the quality is better there, then it is the feed in the room with the TiVo that is the issue. Normally the picture from the internal tuner is pretty good. And be sure you compare Apples to Apples - the same recording quality on both units. And when comparing to the raw signal, using Best on the TiVo - or just LiveTV - is the best option for a fair comparison.

If you have noise on the line, a video filter can help. If it is a weaks signal, there are signal amplifiers.

And the S3 will be a new box. That means it may have a completely different encoder. Also, the MPEG settings matter. For example, my Pioneer DVR-810H uses the same chips as the 2xx series S2. But the picture quality at Best and High is, IMHO, better. Because the Pioneer is a DVD model and it records at 720x480 and higher bitrates, while the standard S2 is 480x480 and lower bitrates. I find that High on the DVD box is comparable to Best on the non-DVD box.

Since the S3 is designed for HD, they may have cranked up the resolution and bitrates on native recordings too. We'll see.


----------



## megazone

Toeside said:


> The only time the encoder chip will be used is when watching analog cable (unless some of the TiVo-to-go and other features use it). I wonder how many people that will buy/own a Series 3 will use an analog cable feed.


I've seen a number of comments from people saying they want an S3 for analog cable plus ATSC, so probably a fair number. And, as others have said, most digital cable systems are still analog up to 100. Some have started simulcast, but that's a minority. For myself, with Charter Digital, I don't have simulcast so *most* of my shows are still analog. So much so that I dumped one of my cable boxes and my main TiVo just records natively. I have a cable box on my secondary one. I did that since no box is more reliable - nothing to mis-tune or reset.


----------



## megazone

mumpower said:


> With all due respect to the people who are saying they don't mind the price point, it reminds me of the PS3. There is not a single "normal" consumer who looked at the $599 price point for the real system and said, "What a great value!"


No, but I plan to pre-order a PS3. They're targeting idiots like me for the first wave. It is the early adopter tax. They ream gadget freaks like myself, and then once that market is worked over the price drops and the next tier of buyers rushes in. Lather, rinse, repeat until it is priced for the average consumer a year or two later.



> Having said that, I suspect the $799 is either an MSRP or just a number stuck in the system for now. The Dual Tuner is $249 (excluding rebates). I find it very hard to believe the new device is over triple that since TiVo has to cut deals to sell the $249 unit.


Oh, it is certainly the MSRP. Which means there is room for rebates, sales, etc. I can easily believe it is $800 given the features and target. If that's too much - and I agree that it will be for most buyers - then wait six months and I'm sure it'll be lower. Or there'll be some online discounter selling it for less, rebates, etc.


----------



## megazone

Bierboy said:


> Hmmm.....$525 (or thereabouts)....I'm thinking I need a second job....temporarily....


Or befriend a Best Buy employee. ;-)

If they can get them for $525 I'd be looking for them to sell them on eBay for less than retail. ;-) Sell it for $625 plus S&H and make $100 a box.


----------



## megazone

JDAWG11 said:


> I would say it will be $799 with some sort of rebate, our price usually dosen't stray from what the system tells us. I'm worried their going to bump up the tivo service fee for HD...anyone hear any word of this?


It seems highly unlikely the pricing will change. The service is still the same, and they're making the money on the hardware sales unlike with the S2. They did say they would not be subsidizing the S3 at the same levels as the S2.

As an employee are you limited in how many you can buy for $525? You could make a good buck reselling them for less than retail. ;-) (I'm sure that's against the rules.)


----------



## megazone

etsolow said:


> Where are people getting this $13/mo service price?


http://www.tivo.com/3.0.asp


----------



## megazone

Bierboy said:


> Dude....I just checked and it's GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah, It Takes A Thief hasn't aired in months. I still have an SP for it.


----------



## ah30k

mattack said:


> Is there a decoder ring for serial # to manufacture date? (I know that doesn't directly correspond to lifetime sub date.)
> 
> I may have checked this out in the past, but one of my Tivos was bought as a known busted unit (it was the normal bad hard drive thing) and had lifetime.
> 
> Having vague deja vu that someone provided a decoder ring long ago.
> 
> (My S1 isn't officially on my account. It seemed like too much of a bother to waste the phone people's time to track down the orig owner & transfer it, esp since the S1s don't give any benefits like transferring shows between units. Remember, this was a broken unit, bought through a web company.)


If its not on your account, you won't be able to transfer it anyway. I'm not sure if this is standard or not, but when I was transferring an old unit into my account I needed to provide the name and phone number of the person who owned the unit. At first I didn't have the info and was told that I couldnt transfer ownership but could continue to use it under lifetime. I eventually got the info and was able to transfer it.

BTW Looks like megazone is having trouble sleeping or had a bit too much coffee!!


----------



## lessd

ah30k said:


> If its not on your account, you won't be able to transfer it anyway. I'm not sure if this is standard or not, but when I was transferring an old unit into my account I needed to provide the name and phone number of the person who owned the unit. At first I didn't have the info and was told that I couldnt transfer ownership but could continue to use it under lifetime. I eventually got the info and was able to transfer it.
> 
> BTW Looks like megazone is having trouble sleeping or had a bit too much coffee!!


The orignal user information is not needed now just having the unit, (if TiVo wants to they can send you a message on that unit to prove it is your possession)


----------



## JDAWG11

megazone said:


> As an employee are you limited in how many you can buy for $525? You could make a good buck reselling them for less than retail. ;-) (I'm sure that's against the rules.)


Yes sir, they watch that like a hawk. Especially when a new product comes out, i.e. PSP and XBOX 360...So many people got fired for selling 360's online.


----------



## Bierboy

megazone said:


> Yeah, It Takes A Thief hasn't aired in months. I still have an SP for it.


I meant the $$$$$$$$ is GONE!!!


----------



## DCIFRTHS

megazone said:


> 250GB is only 25-35 hours of HD content. And the hard drive isn't going to be a huge cost factor, as others have said. If they dropped to a 160GB drive, you'd be talking about 15-20 hours of HD, but you wouldn't save a lot. Checking PriceWatch.com, the best price on a 250GB SATA drive is $62.99, 160GB is $54.69. $8.30 difference. And TiVo buys wholesale, those are retail prices. If anything I think there may be a 500GB model in the future. ...


Do you now feel that TiVo will be going with a SATA drive in the S3, or were you just using that drive as an example of pricing on drives?


----------



## SullyND

DCIFRTHS said:


> Do you now feel that TiVo will be going with a SATA drive in the S3, or were you just using that drive as an example of pricing on drives?


I think a lot of us are assuming that the internal drive will be SATA as the external connection is E-SATA. It's not necessarily a given, but it does seem to make sense.


----------



## CCourtney

The price gap between SATA and PATA has all but disappeared in the retail world, and it's virtually gone in the wholesale world. Why add another controller to the system when it's not necessary.

CCourtney


----------



## classicX

Adam1115 said:


> What are you talking about? The TiVo upgrade is a SOFTWARE upgrade to an EXISTING product.
> 
> Unless you know of a way they could "PUSH OUT" a bigger hard drive via a software update?


I now have an image in my mind of little bulges in the cable wires travelling to each home that ordered a storage update, and arriving at the STB with a "pop" sound.

Thank you.


----------



## classicX

SullyND said:


> I think a lot of us are assuming that the internal drive will be SATA as the external connection is E-SATA. It's not necessarily a given, but it does seem to make sense.


I seem to remember somewhere (perhaps the CES video corrections) that the internal drive will still be PATA. Only the external drive port is SATA. I could be wrong though.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

classicX said:


> I seem to remember somewhere (perhaps the CES video corrections) that the internal drive will still be PATA. Only the external drive port is SATA. I could be wrong though.


This statement came from MZ, who got his information at CES from a TiVo employee. My guess was that it was simply a mistake. At that time, MZ, some others and myself, had a discussion or two regarding this.

For many reasons, it was, and still is, my opinion, that it would make no sense to use a PATA drive in the S3 TiVo.

I was curious if MZ had changed his mind, and that is why I posted my question.

I won't be opening my S3 when I first get my hands on one, so maybe someone else will be open theirs, and post pictures for us  Hopefully it won't be too long a wait...


----------



## bkdtv

> I seem to remember somewhere (perhaps the CES video corrections) that the internal drive will still be PATA. Only the external drive port is SATA. I could be wrong though.


I'm hoping it has two. The Broadcom chip with two SATA ports (began shipping in Jan' '06) has a much faster cpu than the chip with one SATA port and PATA (began shipping in Oct '05).


----------



## MickeS

Which probably means it costs more... which means TiVo went with the old one.


----------



## Dan203

Or it could be why they added a B to the end of the model number. 

Dan


----------



## jfh3

MickeS said:


> Which probably means it costs more... which means TiVo went with the old one.


Yeah, but that could be penny-wise, pound foolish. You would think that Tivo would want the best chip possible.

Certainly there was enough lead time to get the newer chip in the design, which, as Dan says, may account for the difference in the model numbers submitted to Cable Labs.


----------



## bkdtv

> Yeah, but that could be penny-wise, pound foolish. You would think that Tivo would want the best chip possible.
> 
> Certainly there was enough lead time to get the newer chip in the design, which, as Dan says, may account for the difference in the model numbers submitted to Cable Labs.


I think it would all depend on when they finalized the design.

Tivo wouldn't have received shipments of the newer chip until mid-January. The actual cost difference between the chips is less than $5. That buys a much faster cpu, a second SATA port, and HDMI v1.2 instead of HDMI v1.1. I do believe both are pin-compatible and software compatible, so it's not like using the new chip would have required any significant hardware or software redesign.

I'm really hoping Tivo uses the newer chip for the faster cpu, as I think that would allow them to do much more with the Series3 in the future than they could with the slower one. We'll know which chip the Series3 uses as soon as we learn whether it has HDMI 1.1 or 1.2.

*Update:*

The difference in price is more than I thought. The older BC7401 costs $30 and uses a 676-pin BGA -- this is about $5 more than the chip in the Series2 DT. The newer BCM7400 costs $49.50 and uses a 1521-pin QFP. Hence, some hardware design changes would have been necessary.

Here's an article on the newer chip (it says January 2005, but it's 2006):

http://www.us.design-reuse.com/news/news12252.html


----------



## jfh3

bkdtv said:


> I think it would all depend on when they finalized the design.


Agreed, but that's what, at least three months (Feb/March/April) to build a box that Cable Labs got in June?

Some very nice features on the newer chip and certainly worth waiting for.


----------



## Dan203

They wouldn't have needed a production chip to build a box for CableLabs approval. They might have procured a preproduction sample from broadcom months earlier and built a prototype for CableLabs approval.

Dan


----------



## CCourtney

Dan203 said:


> They wouldn't have needed a production chip to build a box for CableLabs approval. They might have procured a preproduction sample from broadcom months earlier and built a prototype for CableLabs approval.
> 
> Dan


I would suspect that is what they did. Note that they would need to recertify with CableLabs if one peice of HW was changed, and this does require a model # change as well.

CCourtney


----------



## btwyx

jfh3 said:


> Yeah, but that could be penny-wise, pound foolish. You would think that Tivo would want the best chip possible.


In the consumer electronics space things are very price sensitive. People are crying and screaming about a possible $799 price. If upgrading the chip blew the price point, it wouldn't be a good thing. In this sort of thing you reckon additional parts cost adds 10x the cost to the final product, so if as suggested the price difference in the chip is $5, the price difference in the final product could be $50.

An $849 price point vs a $799 price point could make a lot of difference to the success of the product.

TiVo may want the best chip, but you have to define "best". Price is a big factor, as is price/performance ratio. The most expensive chip may not be the "best" for the product.

Put it another way, hardware designers are always dumping cheap under-specified hardware on the heads of software engineers and expecting them to make it work. That's just the nature of the business.


----------



## classicX

CCourtney said:


> I would suspect that is what they did. Note that they would need to recertify with CableLabs if one peice of HW was changed, and this does require a model # change as well.
> 
> CCourtney


Interesting - so changing the internal hard drive would "break" the CableLabs certification? Could your cable company then deny you access because it's not a certified piece of hardware?


----------



## classicX

btwyx said:


> An $849 price point vs a $799 price point could make a lot of difference to the success of the product.


<sarcasm=+10>
<Howard Dean>
YEEEEEAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
</Howard Dean>
</sarcasm>

I sincerely doubt that. Someone willing to pay $800 for a product is not likely to second guess that decision if it were $50 more, which is about 6.25 percent more. Heck, that's what you pay in taxes at retail, and sometimes more!

Then again it could be the whole "$1" perception ploy - $799 in peoples' minds seems like a lot less than $800 for some reason.

Now, it might be a different story if we're in the $300-$400 range. $299 is significantly more attractive than $349, where the $50 represents which is more than _16%_ more.


----------



## lessd

classicX said:


> Interesting - so changing the internal hard drive would "break" the CableLabs certification? Could your cable company then deny you access because it's not a certified piece of hardware?


Good point..if you already had a CC installed and changed the HD would the cable card not work ? I will let the underground be the first to find out. I also saw a warranty sticker on the back of a picture of the Series 3, what up with that? (TiVo had stickers on the Series 1 but not an any of the Series 2 )


----------



## MichaelK

not really relevent but I think The new Directv NDS HD DVR uses SATA inside and out. (have to go look at earls pictures again...)

Does that mean they use the newer chip?


----------



## MichaelK

lessd said:


> Good point..if you already had a CC installed and changed the HD would the cable card not work ? I will let the underground be the first to find out. I also saw a warranty sticker on the back of a picture of the Series 3, what up with that? (TiVo had stickers on the Series 1 but not an any of the Series 2 )


I was wondering out loud in another thread if cablelabs made them put the sticker on- maybe that's the reason- they need to try to keep people from changing hard drives???


----------



## MickeS

classicX said:


> I sincerely doubt that. Someone willing to pay $800 for a product is not likely to second guess that decision if it were $50 more, which is about 6.25 percent more. Heck, that's what you pay in taxes at retail, and sometimes more!


That logic doesn't work. Because then you can say, those who were willing to pay $849 are not likely to second guess that if it's just $50 more... and then you're at $899... and those who are willing to pay that aren't likely to second guess that, and then you're at $949... all of a sudden, you just added $150, but by your logic, you're still looking at exactly the same number of potential buyers.


----------



## MichaelK

I do actually think that most people in the 799 camp are in the "at any cost" camp. At least judging by the posts in their and other threads. 

Myself - I'm hesitant to say out loud but assume TiVo already figured out the pricing- I'm in the Shy of a grand camp (for ONE unit)- so 799, 849, 899, 949 would yeild the same sale in my household. 

If somehow they get the price to be Sub 500 then I'd be in the two unit camp. I can dream but doesn't seem like it will do that anytime soon...


----------



## bkdtv

> Interesting - so changing the internal hard drive would "break" the CableLabs certification? Could your cable company then deny you access because it's not a certified piece of hardware?


The CableCard wouldn't be tied to the hard drive, it would be tied to a sequence of numbers stored in the Tivo's firmware.



> not really relevent but I think The new Directv NDS HD DVR uses SATA inside and out. (have to go look at earls pictures again...)


No.

The DirecTV NDS HD-DVR uses an older hardware design based on 2004 technology--- more specifically, it uses the BCM7038/BCM7411 combo. The BCM7038 formed the basis of the DirecTivo HR10-250 as well. DirecTV took the HR10-250 design, added on a separate BCM7411 MPEG-4 decoder, and doubled the memory. Obviously there are some other changes to the devices on the PCI bus (one ATSC tuner instead of two), but the "heart" of the two boxes is the same.

I would not be surprised if DirecTV "converted" their HR10-250 production lines to HR20 production, and reused many of the same parts. This solution is not nearly as integrated as more recent (Fall 2005) designs from Broadcom. The Series3 is unlikely to use such an older design for the simple reason that it was not intended to support CableCard.


----------



## lessd

bkdtv said:


> The CableCard wouldn't be tied to the hard drive, it would be tied to a sequence of numbers stored in the Tivo's firmware.


The TSN is but do you know for sure if the CC is not set up on the hard drive by some type of signature that is on the Hard Drive, Norton Ghost uses something like that.

I at this point have no idea


----------



## seattlewendell

Adam1115 said:


> What are you talking about? The TiVo upgrade is a SOFTWARE upgrade to an EXISTING product.
> 
> Unless you know of a way they could "PUSH OUT" a bigger hard drive via a software update?


Here is article about Comcast buying 1.7 million new boxes. Some have double the dard drive space of their current boxes.
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6297823.html?display=Technology
Mpeg2, Mpeg4, and UBS 2.0 networking capability.
What?


----------



## Dan203

I was just reading something non-TiVo related over on AVS Forum and someone mentioned that CEDIA is actually going on September 14th-17th. Fits right in with the time frame given for this thread.

Dan


----------



## seattlewendell

megazone said:


> http://www.tivo.com/3.0.asp


Hmmm. Why are those rates, cheaper than these rates
http://www.tivo.com/2.0.plans.step.1.asp


----------



## MurrayJimW

seattlewendell said:


> Hmmm. Why are those rates, cheaper than these rates
> http://www.tivo.com/2.0.plans.step.1.asp


You get a subsidized box with the higher rate....you are only buying service at the lower one.


----------



## headless chicken

Ok then. It's official. Goodbye Series2, Hello Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD.

Cablevision will get my hard earned greenbacks until TiVo offers some serious rebates or a more reasonable price.


----------



## Dan203

To be more clear the link Megazone posted is for service only on a box you already own. The link you posted includes a Series 2 TiVo in the cost.

Dan


----------



## MurrayJimW

headless chicken said:


> Ok then. It's official. Goodbye Series2, Hello Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD.
> 
> Cablevision will get my hard earned greenbacks until TiVo offers some serious rebates or a more reasonable price.


I have one of those boxes and I cannot express to you the endless annoyances and general disgust I feel for this box having owned Tivos since their inception. I'm sure it would be fine if I had not been spoiled by Tivo, but since I have; the 8300 is a turd.

I'm looking forward to the S3 when I can return the 8300. Unfortunately, an S2 on a 50 inch plasma yields less than a quality picture so the 8300 stays until the S3 is available.


----------



## megazone

DCIFRTHS said:


> I was curious if MZ had changed his mind, and that is why I posted my question.


Yeah, I know they told me PATA at CES but at this point, looking at the Broadcom chips available, etc, I think it is probably all-SATA. It makes more sense. This is a product they need to produce for years to come.



> I won't be opening my S3 when I first get my hands on one, so maybe someone else will be open theirs, and post pictures for us  Hopefully it won't be too long a wait...


I'm sure someone will post photos the nanosecond they can.


----------



## mattack

ah30k said:


> If its not on your account, you won't be able to transfer it anyway.


I did read the followup article btw.

But my intention was that if it really was old enough for the grandfathered-in transfer, I would go through the hassle of having it officially transferred to my account (if that is still necessary). I strongly suspect it's not old enough, and my reading of the grandfather clause quoted in this thread sounds like it might only be for the original owner, but it'd sure be cool if I had a transferrable lifetime to an S3!


----------



## 1283

Unless you call at a very busy time, the transfer should not take more than 5-10 minutes on the phone. No need to guess.


----------



## Tippy

headless chicken said:


> Ok then. It's official. Goodbye Series2, Hello Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD.
> 
> Cablevision will get my hard earned greenbacks until TiVo offers some serious rebates or a more reasonable price.


Do you have one yet? If not, I can tell you from my personal experience that the 8300 HD is a pos. I ONLY use it for the HD recording. Everything else is on my two S2 models.


----------



## TiVo Troll

MichaelK said:


> I do actually think that most people in the 799 camp are in the "at any cost" camp. At least judging by the posts in their and other threads.
> 
> Myself - I'm hesitant to say out loud but assume TiVo already figured out the pricing- I'm in the Shy of a grand camp (for ONE unit)- so 799, 849, 899, 949 would yeild the same sale in my household.
> 
> If somehow they get the price to be Sub 500 then I'd be in the two unit camp. I can dream but doesn't seem like it will do that anytime soon...


Depending on exactly what Series 3 provides, and whether it will or won't offer manual channel mapping for digital cable w/o a CableCard, I could be in either "camp"!

If a comprehensive revue is posted soon after Series 3 is released maybe I'll know before having to actually order one!


----------



## kdmorse

> Yeah, I know they told me PATA at CES but at this point, looking at the Broadcom chips available, etc, I think it is probably all-SATA. It makes more sense. This is a product they need to produce for years to come.


Well - they told me PATA in Vegas as well, and that was less than three months ago. They would not however let me peek inside to see for myself 

We probably won't know for sure until someone buys one and cracks it open.

-Ken


----------



## headless chicken

Tippy said:


> Do you have one yet? If not, I can tell you from my personal experience that the 8300 HD is a pos. I ONLY use it for the HD recording. Everything else is on my two S2 models.


Have one? Yes. Just got it. Installed it? No. I'm waiting for my new plasma and premium 5.1 speaker setup to arrive. I just shelled out big bucks on a HT system and so S3, as lovely as it may be is out of my budget at it's current price tag.

I'd keep my S2 arround, but what's the point of having HDTV when your playback is all in SD? I no longer watch live TV and have been hugely reliant on my TiVo the past two years, but there is no other affordable alternative for recording hi def with cable at this point.


----------



## GoHokies!

OK, I've now joined the "Where the hell is it?" camp....

My Tivo died on Sunday, and it's replacement will be here today, I hope. I also bought a new HD TV Tuesday, and Comcast will be bringing me an 8300 on Saturday. So in the meantime, I've just had the TV hooked up to cable, and I am completely and totally lost. It's been so long since I've been without a Tivo that I honestly don't know how to watch TV when I don't have a library of TV shows that I've recorded waiting for me. The new S2 and the 8300 will be a good stopgap measure I'm sure, but the moment an S3 is available, I think that I'll be jumping on it...

I'm sure it's coming soon, but even yesterday won't be soon enough 

Headless, it looks like we're in the same situation, I plan on running both the S2 and the 8300 into the TV, and only using the 8300 to record HD, and using the S2 to record everything that shows on a channel that isn't offered in HD (not sure how much use the S2 is going to see there, as Comcast's HD package seems pretty complete).


----------



## classicX

MickeS said:


> That logic doesn't work. Because then you can say, those who were willing to pay $849 are not likely to second guess that if it's just $50 more... and then you're at $899... and those who are willing to pay that aren't likely to second guess that, and then you're at $949... all of a sudden, you just added $150, but by your logic, you're still looking at exactly the same number of potential buyers.


Your logic is flawed because:

those willing to pay $799 (base) != those willing to pay $849 (base) != those willing to pay $900 (base).

We're not talking about the price increasing over time, which is the only way a person would have any reason to do what you say.

We're talking about a static price. $799. or $849. or $950.

Person 1: I was willing to pay $800, and the price is $850. OK, I guess I would pay $850.

Person 1: I was willing to $800, and the price is $950. I'll wait until the price comes down.

Think about it a little more, it makes sense because the price is not increasing over time, it's the initial price.


----------



## classicX

seattlewendell said:


> Here is article about Comcast buying 1.7 million new boxes. Some have double the dard drive space of their current boxes.
> http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6297823.html?display=Technology
> Mpeg2, Mpeg4, and UBS 2.0 networking capability.
> What?


New boxes doesn't mean that they are for Tivo software.

And even if they are, I would think that they are for the Comcast markets that DON'T have the motorola boxes - like mine. I have SA boxes and I want Tivo software. They'll have to change the box for that to happen, or Tivo would have to develop new software that could run on the SA boxes.


----------



## cwoody222

classicX said:


> New boxes doesn't mean that they are for Tivo software.
> 
> And even if they are, I would think that they are for the Comcast markets that DON'T have the motorola boxes - like mine. I have SA boxes and I want Tivo software. They'll have to change the box for that to happen, or Tivo would have to develop new software that could run on the SA boxes.


Assuming Comcast will offer the TiVo option in all of their markets, that is. They may not.

Cable co. have different offerings all over their markets... different software on their boxes, different hardware, different lineups, different prices, etc.

If Comcast would have to put a Moto box in the middle of one of their markets that have SA boxes, I would be skeptical that they'd do that.

What happens when a SA customer wants TiVo? Suddenly it's not just as easy as "OK, customer, just wait, we'll download it to your box". Now it's "Oh, customer, you need a new box... come down to our office... or schedule a service call... and then you'll need to download some new software (assuming it's not pre-loaded)."

Not exactly an easy sale.

Makes more sense (I'm guessing) for them to - over a long period of time - to phase out all their SA boxes entirely so all the customers have the "option" of TiVo. However, do they have an agreement with SA? I'd assume so.


----------



## ab3tx

cwoody222 said:


> If Comcast would have to put a Moto box in the middle of one of their markets that have SA boxes, I would be skeptical that they'd do that.
> 
> What happens when a SA customer wants TiVo? Suddenly it's not just as easy as "OK, customer, just wait, we'll download it to your box". Now it's "Oh, customer, you need a new box... come down to our office... or schedule a service call... and then you'll need to download some new software (assuming it's not pre-loaded)."
> 
> Not exactly an easy sale.
> 
> Makes more sense (I'm guessing) for them to - over a long period of time - to phase out all their SA boxes entirely so all the customers have the "option" of TiVo. However, do they have an agreement with SA? I'd assume so.


They can't just swap boxes (Moto <-> SA) on demand. They would have to totally rip out the backend and start over again. The logistics and costs of it won't allow it to happen, though. If you have a Moto box now, you're stuck with a Moto box (Note: I know there are third-party boxes, but I don't think we will see TiVo on them soon, if ever, under the rules currently in effect.)

I think this is where the new agreement with Cox might be beneficial for every cable customer in the long run. Comcast seems to have more Moto vs. SA, and Cox seems to be the opposite, more SA vs. Moto. Perhaps with TiVo developing Moto software for Comcast and SA software for Cox, they can then use the software for the "other" brand on Comcast and Cox, and to take it one step further, have turnkey software to sell to other MSOs. It just depends on how the agreements are written as to if TiVo can use the software elsewhere.

ETA: This might mean we could possibly see TWC TiVo boxes, which would help with the SDV problem.


----------



## cwoody222

So basically you've confirmed that ALL Comcast customers will NOT be able to get TiVo software? Only those that currently have Moto boxes? And that's determined by?... blind luck? inheritance from past companies / territories?


What does TWC use? A mix of both? I'm in a post-Adelphia, now-TWC market and we have SA boxes.


----------



## CCourtney

ab3tx said:


> They can't just swap boxes (Moto <-> SA) on demand. They would have to totally rip out the backend and start over again. The logistics and costs of it won't allow it to happen, though. If you have a Moto box now, you're stuck with a Moto box (Note: I know there are third-party boxes, but I don't think we will see TiVo on them soon, if ever, under the rules currently in effect.)
> 
> I think this is where the new agreement with Cox might be beneficial for every cable customer in the long run. Comcast seems to have more Moto vs. SA, and Cox seems to be the opposite, more SA vs. Moto. Perhaps with TiVo developing Moto software for Comcast and SA software for Cox, they can then use the software for the "other" brand on Comcast and Cox, and to take it one step further, have turnkey software to sell to other MSOs. It just depends on how the agreements are written as to if TiVo can use the software elsewhere.
> 
> ETA: This might mean we could possibly see TWC TiVo boxes, which would help with the SDV problem.


I'm currently in a TWC area (soon to become a Comcast Area.) Are area supports both Mot and SA boxes. Use to be a Moto only, but they had more success w/ the SA DVRs than the Moto DVRs with the same Moto Head Ends. They went with the SA DVRs in the end, but can support the Moto Boxes.

They still hand out Moto STBs and even went to the iGuide for the Moto STBs while using another guide system for the SA DVRs.

CCourtney


----------



## ah30k

cwoody222 said:


> So basically you've confirmed that ALL Comcast customers will NOT be able to get TiVo software? Only those that currently have Moto boxes? And that's determined by?... blind luck? inheritance from past companies / territories?
> 
> What does TWC use? A mix of both? I'm in a post-Adelphia, now-TWC market and we have SA boxes.


MSOs launch service in a particular geographic region that is serviced by a "Headend" that broadcasts the RF signal as well as manage authorizations for users. These headends can be from either SA or Moto. MSOs may choose for strategic reasons to go with one or the other entirely or may choose a mix based upon current winds.

Also with cable territory swaps, MSOs inherit headends and may or may not change them out.

OpenCable may change some of this in the future.


----------



## HDTiVo

Does it bother anyone that the article was from 1/9/06 and the 1.7M boxes were not MOTs?
(They were Samsung and Panasonic)


----------



## Bierboy

Can we PLEASE get this thread back on topic? These posts have NOTHING to do with the upcoming SA S3.


----------



## MichaelK

cwoody222 said:


> ...
> 
> Makes more sense (I'm guessing) for them to - over a long period of time - to phase out all their SA boxes entirely so all the customers have the "option" of TiVo. However, do they have an agreement with SA? I'd assume so.


or have TiVO develop a SA port too...

Cox apparently has a lot of SA equipment also...


----------



## dylanursula

Anymore posts by the Best buy guy at AVS???


----------



## PaulS

Tippy said:


> Do you have one yet? If not, I can tell you from my personal experience that the 8300 HD is a pos. I ONLY use it for the HD recording. Everything else is on my two S2 models.


+1

Worst excuse for a "DVR" that I've ever used (compared to : standalone Series2, DirecTiVo, Comcast Motorola 6412).


----------



## jctivo

Who knows if this is true, but I got this information when I was talking to a tivo customer service agent on the phone last night. I was inquiring about how much time I had left on my gift subscription from those free 140 hour tivos last year.

I told her that I was thinking of canceling my tivo because I just got an HD TV and tivo can't do hd for comcast. The tivo rep said something like, we will have one out (series 3) before Christmas. So then I asked about the cost in relation to my current tivo's. She said that the new S3 tivo would only be $6.95 per month since I already have a tivo on a monthly plan. Then I said what if I canceled and only had the series 3. She said that would be $12.95. Again, who knows if it's true but that's what I heard on the phone with tivo last night.

Take it for what it is...possibly informed information from a tivo customer service agent or uninformed...

jctivo


----------



## Bierboy

jctivo said:


> Who knows if this is true, but I got this information when I was talking to a tivo customer service agent on the phone last night. I was inquiring about how much time I had left on my gift subscription from those free 140 hour tivos last year.
> 
> I told her that I was thinking of canceling my tivo because I just got an HD TV and tivo can't do hd for comcast. The tivo rep said something like, we will have one out (series 3) before Christmas. So then I asked about the cost in relation to my current tivo's. She said that the new S3 tivo would only be $6.95 per month since I already have a tivo on a monthly plan. Then I said what if I canceled and only had the series 3. She said that would be $12.95. Again, who knows if it's true but that's what I heard on the phone with tivo last night.
> 
> Take it for what it is...possibly informed information from a tivo customer service agent or uninformed...
> 
> jctivo


That's the way it's been for awhile. If you add any TiVo now to a current $12.95 monthly plan, your added unit is only $6.95/month. I'm not sure what you mean by "cancelled", but, in my case, I currently have an S2 at $12.95/mo. When I get my S3, if I add it to my current plan, it will be an additional $6.95/mo. If I drop my S2 ("cancel") and just add my S3, it will be $12.95/mo.


----------



## greg_burns

Bierboy said:


> That's the way it's been for awhile.


I took his post as meant to be confirmation of the S3 monthly pricing. Which, if correct, is no surpise.


----------



## morac

Bierboy said:


> That's the way it's been for awhile. If you add any TiVo now to a current $12.95 monthly plan, your added unit is only $6.95/month. I'm not sure what you mean by "cancelled", but, in my case, I currently have an S2 at $12.95/mo. When I get my S3, if I add it to my current plan, it will be an additional $6.95/mo. If I drop my S2 ("cancel") and just add my S3, it will be $12.95/mo.


I thought all new TiVos are force-bundled with at least a year of service at $12.95 and only after that could you drop down to the $6.95 discounted price?


----------



## Bierboy

morac said:


> I thought all new TiVos are force-bundled with at least a year of service at $12.95 and only after that could you drop down to the $6.95 discounted price?


Nope....if I get an S3 (through retail), and drop my S2, it goes on at $12.95/month....just like my currrent S2 is billed now. And if I keep my S2, the S3 goes immediately on my account at $6.95/mo.


----------



## Bierboy

greg_burns said:


> I took his post as meant to be confirmation of the S3 monthly pricing. Which, if correct, is no surpise.


I took it as some new piece of information. Which it isn't.


----------



## Dan203

Bierboy said:


> Nope....if I get an S3 (through retail), and drop my S2, it goes on at $12.95/month....just like my currrent S2 is billed now. And if I keep my S2, the S3 goes immediately on my account at $6.95/mo.


There is however still a one year commitment period. If you cancel before then you're subject to a $150 cancellation fee.

Dan


----------



## MichaelK

and I think you can bail in the first 30 days without a committment?


----------



## Bierboy

Dan203 said:


> There is however still a one year commitment period. If you cancel before then you're subject to a $150 cancellation fee.
> 
> Dan


Dan, I just checked TiVo's info page on that, and it says nothing about the early cancellation fee. It simply states...

"You can transfer any service agreement to another TiVo DVR of any make or model at any time. (For Product Lifetime Service transfer policies, see below.) Just go to Manage My Account. After you log in to Manage My Account, select Change service number from the left navigation bar, and follow the on-screen prompts."

Nothing about any early cancellation fee.

Page is here.


----------



## Dan203

Check out this FAQ...

http://www.tivo.com/1.6.2.asp

It says there is an Early Termination Fee of "up to $200" for cancelation prior to one year, but after the initial 30 day guarantee period.

Or just do a Google search for... "Early Termination Fee site:tivo.com" ...it will pull up all sorts of pages that say this same thing.

Dan


----------



## Bierboy

Dan203 said:


> Check out this FAQ...
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/1.6.2.asp
> 
> It says there is an Early Termination Fee of "up to $200" for cancelation prior to one year, but after the initial 30 day guarantee period.
> 
> Or just do a Google search for... "Early Termination Fee site:tivo.com" ...it will pull up all sorts of pages that say this same thing.
> 
> Dan


OK...now that is very clear. I just don't understand why they don't spell it out on the page I mentioned above? That seems like a place to do it, too. Thanks!


----------



## bkdtv

> Yeah, I know they told me PATA at CES but at this point, looking at the Broadcom chips available, etc, I think it is probably all-SATA. It makes more sense. This is a product they need to produce for years to come.


I personally will not spend $500+ on a Series3 with an older Broadcom chipset like the 7401 released last year. The BCM7401 is just a cheaper, integrated version of the BCM7038+BCM7411 with added OpenCable (CableCard) support. Its processor is comparable to the one found in the HR10 HDTV Tivo from DirecTV -- and we all about the performance problems with that box. If the Series3 were to use this processor, it would not be able to support significant improvements in interface, graphics, or interactivity in coming years.

The processor in the newer BCM7400 is roughly *twice as fast* -- 930 MIPS vs 450 MIPS. The 2D and 3D graphics capabilities of the chipset are also improved. The processor in the BCM7400 is fast enough to run Java applications at reasonable speed. It's able to support a high-definition interface with 3D elements (as opposed to an upconverted SD interface), while maintaining a high level of responsiveness. It's potentially able to support the kind of interactivity you see on HD-DVD.

If Tivo uses the newer chip from Broadcom (released last January), that indicates to me that they intend to explore graphical improvements to the Tivo interface which take advantage of high-def displays. It also says to me that they are serious about developing and integrating new interactive applications and content, such as subscription music and video services. Without the BCM7400, none of these things are likely to happen due to hardware limitations. Without the BCM7400, the Series3 is essentially just a Series2 with support for HDTV and drive expansion, with little prospect for future enhancements and services that take advantage of high-def.


----------



## btwyx

bkdtv said:


> Without the BCM7400, the Series3 is essentially just a Series2 with support for HDTV and drive expansion, with little prospect for future enhancements and services that take advantage of high-def.


Sounds fine to me, I want my S3 to be a DT TiVo which does HD. Its basic TiVo functionality I'm after, Anything else is a bonus.


----------



## jctivo

Yes, I meant it as pricing information for the series 3. I thought that it had been rumoured that the Series 3 might cost more monthly than a series 1 or 2 tivo.


----------



## greg_burns

jctivo said:


> Yes, I meant it as pricing information for the series 3. I thought that it had been rumoured that the Series 3 might cost more monthly than a series 1 or 2 tivo.


No one knows for sure, but most seem to think it is very doubtful.


----------



## bkdtv

Pictures of the final Series3 product and the retail box can be found here:

http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/08/31/tivo-series-3-unboxed/


----------



## btwyx

bkdtv said:


> Pictures of the final Series3 product and the retail box can be found here:
> 
> http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/08/31/tivo-series-3-unboxed/


As the comments say:

So um, who, what, when, where, why, how?

And what store can someone walk out of to retrieve such a treasure right now?


----------



## jeffrypennock

bkdtv said:


> Pictures of the final Series3 product and the retail box can be found here:
> 
> http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/08/31/tivo-series-3-unboxed/


WHOA! Where did these pictures come from?

Is this being shipped to vendors and somebody got one for themselves or do Beta products ship in nice, pretty boxes like this?


----------



## bkdtv

> Is this being shipped to vendors and somebody got one for themselves or do Beta products ship in nice, pretty boxes like this?


It's definitely the final product. If Best Buy is getting them 9/17, chances are they are being shipped to distributers in the United States *right now*. That person may work for a distributer, or he may work for a consumer electronics store that was sent a unit for display purposes.


----------



## Dan203

Before the S2DT units shipped they sent production samples to various online review sites so that they could write up a review of the product to be available the day of launch. I'm guessing these photos same from one of those reviewers. Although they are usually required to sign an NDA saying they wont post anything about the product until the day of release, so it seems odd that these photos showed up today. Unless of course TiVo's got a late day press release scheduled. 

Dan


----------



## ashu

Just spotted it via HDBeat  too ... amazing thats omeone already posted these. Looks kinda like the interior of a music/AV store (or someone lucky's personal Home Theater!)


----------



## ChuckyBox

bkdtv said:


> Pictures of the final Series3 product and the retail box can be found here:
> 
> http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/08/31/tivo-series-3-unboxed/


Am I the only one that thinks that packaging looks awfully... Apple-like?

Edit: Okay, I had another look. It isn't Apple-like, it's eerily Appleized. (Anybody who has purchased a Mac laptop within the last few years can back me up.) WTF?


----------



## Troy J B

and contrary to the beta photo's, there are no warranty void stickers on the exterior of the case to break to upgrade the internal hard drives.


----------



## seattlewendell

classicX said:


> New boxes doesn't mean that they are for Tivo software.
> 
> And even if they are, I would think that they are for the Comcast markets that DON'T have the motorola boxes - like mine. I have SA boxes and I want Tivo software. They'll have to change the box for that to happen, or Tivo would have to develop new software that could run on the SA boxes.


Yes, you are correct I DON"T KNOW. and neither does Adam which was my original point. He said no way way Comcast would do this and no way Comcast would do that blah, blah blah. I said hold on. You don't work for Comcast and you don't have a crystal ball. You don't know what the company is going to do. He responded with some nonsensical answer about existing customers no being able top get large boxes etc. etc. Comcast has about 10 million customers. I posted the link to show that Comcast jut bought enough boxes to give 10% of their customers DVR's with large HD's. That percentage goes up if you factor in that not all their customers have DVR's. My point in posting the link is that we don't know what Comcast is going to do. 1.5 million new boxes seems just about right if they were planning a rollout of better boxes. I am posting information so people can draw their own conclusions. I just have a problem people make absolute statements. No way XYZ. No way? How do you know?

Also about the SA and Moto boxes. About 1 year ago during their earnings call Comcast said that they use boxes from various sources so that their supply chain is no tied to one company. Also to keep getting the best prices on their boxes they feel it's best to have competition rather than give all their business to one company. Whether or not this make sense doesn't matter. The point is that this is their philosophy. Since they are now in bed with Tivo don't you think they have Tivo working on software for both boxes? Just a thought.


----------



## Dan203

Good catch! So someone should be able to crack theirs open and shoot some pictures on day one. 

Dan


----------



## MickeS

So how long until we get a decent review of this thing? Can't be long now...


----------



## Dan203

Probably not until after TiVo send out a press release. They usually do that on Tuesdays so I'm guessing either next Tuesday or the one after that. (9/5 or 9/12)

Dan


----------



## jsmeeker

ChuckyBox said:


> Am I the only one that thinks that packaging looks awfully... Apple-like?
> 
> Edit: Okay, I had another look. It isn't Apple-like, it's eerily Appleized. (Anybody who has purchased a Mac laptop within the last few years can back me up.) WTF?


Yeah.. It has that general look to it.


----------



## aztivo

ChuckyBox said:


> Am I the only one that thinks that packaging looks awfully... Apple-like?
> 
> Edit: Okay, I had another look. It isn't Apple-like, it's eerily Appleized. (Anybody who has purchased a Mac laptop within the last few years can back me up.) WTF?


who cares it is what is inside that we want they could send it to me in a garbage bag as long as I get that ohh so lovely S3 tivo I will be happy... BTW you must realize that a LOT of people like apple packaging so if Tivo thinks this may help sell more boxes g-d bless


----------



## ChuckyBox

aztivo said:


> who cares it is what is inside that we want they could send it to me in a garbage bag as long as I get that ohh so lovely S3 tivo I will be happy... BTW you must realize that a LOT of people like apple packaging so if Tivo thinks this may help sell more boxes g-d bless


I was suggesting something a little stronger than TiVo just copying Apple's swell, feel-good packaging, but I was hoping you could connect the dots yourself. It could be a copycat thing, but the most obvious place to get Apple packaging is at an Apple manufacturing plant. You know, the ones where they make Apple computers.


----------



## aztivo

ChuckyBox said:


> I was suggesting something a little stronger than TiVo just copying Apple's swell, feel-good packaging, but I was hoping you could connect the dots yourself. It could be a copycat thing, but the most obvious place to get Apple packaging is at an Apple manufacturing plant. You know, the ones where they make Apple computers.


well I was hoping that the apple is buying tivo rummors would have died down but I guess that some people will always look to those.. wasnt apple going to by sony as well??


----------



## Bierboy

ChuckyBox said:


> Am I the only one that thinks that packaging looks awfully... Apple-like?.....


And that's awful for exactly what reason?

I mean, who the heck cares about the packaging.....gimme the guts!!!!!


----------



## Test

ChuckyBox said:


> I was suggesting something a little stronger than TiVo just copying Apple's swell, feel-good packaging, but I was hoping you could connect the dots yourself. It could be a copycat thing, but the most obvious place to get Apple packaging is at an Apple manufacturing plant. You know, the ones where they make Apple computers.


adding more fuel to the fire...

Is apple planning an event on Sept. 12th, in San Francisco?

http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/31/apple-planning-event-in-sf-on-september-12th/

anyway...count me in for an s3 in the 0-500 range


----------



## Dan203

There is some speculation that TiVo is working with Apple on an HME based download service linked to iTunes.

Dan


----------



## etemple

Pictures!
http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/08/31/tivo-series-3-unboxed/

If only I had a Hi-def tv . . .
sigh.


----------



## ChuckyBox

aztivo said:


> well I was hoping that the apple is buying tivo rummors would have died down but I guess that some people will always look to those.. wasnt apple going to by sony as well??


I thought it was Sony buying Apple, not the other way around.

But I'm not suggesting that Apple is buying TiVo. There has been talk of some kind of relationship for some time, lately it has been an iTunes movie download kind of thing. So let's say there is going to be a partnership of some kind: movie downloads or TiVo DVR software on the Mac or closer integration with the video iPod or something. And maybe part of that deal is Apple sells TiVo boxes in their Apple stores and online. Maybe Apple would want the packaging to match all of their other products. Or maybe they're building the Series 3 for TiVo. (TiVo has declined to state who is manufacturing the Series 3.) You know, something interesting.

Cripes, people around here used to be good at this stuff. TiVoJerry posted a picture of his cubicle, and people figured out every piece of equipment in the place, what he was doing that morning, what he had for lunch, and his girlfriend's shoe size. Now we get a bunch of pictures of Series 3 packaging (which is about the only new thing in the pictures), and without the logos you'd swear it was Apple packaging, and it's all "Look. Box. Shiny." It's a sad, sad day in TC when we can't run wild with the tiny scraps of information we get.


----------



## dylanursula

etemple said:


> Pictures!
> http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/08/31/tivo-series-3-unboxed/
> 
> If only I had a Hi-def tv . . .
> sigh.


DUDE - where did he get that S3 box from  I HATE HIM!!!!


----------



## HDTiVo

How come there's on mention of HD or High Definition on the packaging?

No, seriously, there was no mention of Series 3 I could see.

And the packaging bears a mix of TiVo logos.

And anything with HD on it seems to be in grey scale.


----------



## petew

dylanursula said:


> DUDE - where did he get that S3 box from  I HATE HIM!!!!


From his comments on pvrwire the photographer is a Best Buy employee who snagged the first one to arrive at the store.


----------



## cwoody222

The packaging looks SO non-TiVo and SO Apple-like... they're convincing photos but I wonder... fake?


----------



## Dan203

Definitely NOT fake.

Dan


----------



## cwoody222

Well, then... where's the official TiVo announcement already!?!?!


----------



## dylanursula

cwoody - I am with you - if a BB guy has it in store where is the announcement - could it be available this Sunday ???


----------



## Bierboy

Dan203 said:


> Definitely NOT fake.
> 
> Dan


...and you would know this *HOW?*


----------



## cwoody222

dylanursula said:


> cwoody - I am with you - if a BB guy has it in store where is the announcement - could it be available this Sunday ???


Exactly. I mean, some details came earlier this week from a mysterious BB guy and now another (or the same?) BB guy has the first one ever?

Where is this magical Best Buy?! 

However, that said, some new graphics / text at tivo.com tend to also bear this new design scheme...

(if this IS all true, I'll be REALLY PISSED that TiVo can steal Apple's design but STILL can't get a Mac version of TiVo ToGo... why don't they just slap us Mac users in the face some more?!?!)


----------



## ping

I'm a bit surprised by the "HD" in the modified TiVo logo. Doesn't seem to be in line with their style guide.
http://www.tivo.com/resources/ca_tivologo.asp


----------



## bap

ping said:


> I'm a bit surprised by the "HD" in the modified TiVo logo. Doesn't seem to be in line with their style guide.
> http://www.tivo.com/resources/ca_tivologo.asp


Not necessarially. Take a look at their Series 2 logos, which is significantly different from the original logos. This is probably just their modification for S3's is all.


----------



## VinceA

The unboxing pictures were a great birthday present for me 

Now I know I was right to tell people to hold off getting me a birthday present...


----------



## JPinAZ

HDTiVo said:


> How come there's on mention of HD or High Definition on the packaging?
> 
> No, seriously, there was no mention of Series 3 I could see.


It's there in the first picture. HD is in the center of the TiVo guy & HD is to the right of the word TiVo.


----------



## greg_burns

JPinAZ said:


> It's there in the first picture. HD is in the center of the TiVo guy & HD is to the right of the word TiVo.


zoom


----------



## HDTiVo

JPinAZ said:


> It's there in the first picture. HD is in the center of the TiVo guy & HD is to the right of the word TiVo.


Really? Just the first picture????


----------



## jteague

Tivo better hurry up.
The remastered for HD version of the original Star Trek series begins 
airing on 09/16.
Coincidence? I don't think so...


"Hollywood, Calif. -- STAR TREK is getting a 21st century makeover. CBS Paramount Domestic Television is releasing digitally remastered episodes of the iconic 1960s sci-fi series, with all new special effects and music, to celebrate the groundbreaking series' 40th anniversary, it was announced today by John Nogawski, president of CBS Paramount Domestic Television.

The new episodes also mark the first time in 16 years that the original STAR TREK series can be seen in broadcast syndication. The episodes will begin airing on the more than 200 stations that own the rights to the weekend broadcast syndication window *starting Sept. 16* (check local listings for station and dates). All 79 episodes of the original STAR TREK series will eventually be remastered, with the first batch of episodes chosen from a list of STAR TREK fans' favorite shows.
..."

(you can figure out the link)

tvguide D-O-T com /SLASH News /SLASH Insider


----------



## ZombiE

I feel like I'm waiting for my kid to be born, and he was two weeks late!!!!


----------



## HDTiVo

jteague said:


> Tivo better hurry up.
> The remastered for HD version of the original Star Trek series begins
> airing on 09/16.
> Coincidence? I don't think so...


Don't see nothin' 'bout no HD, but I hear Uhuru is digitally replaced with a _digital_ answering machine. Oh, the irony. 

SciFi did a junior version of this long ago, without changing stuff.


----------



## megazone

cwoody222 said:


> So basically you've confirmed that ALL Comcast customers will NOT be able to get TiVo software? Only those that currently have Moto boxes? And that's determined by?... blind luck? inheritance from past companies / territories?


That's been known for a long time. The initial Comcast roll-out is only for Motorola. Same for Cox. That's all TiVo has been paid to develop for. They may port to Scientific Atlanta boxes too if the cable MSOs want it, but right now they haven't asked for that.


----------



## kdmorse

_They may port to Scientific Atlanta boxes too if the cable MSOs want it, but right now they haven't asked for that._

While I could certainly be wrong, I suspect SA's answer to that would "over our dead bodies". Their new owners (Cisco) have specifically expressed the desire to invade the STB arena full force, by developing their own integrated platform which will do everything Tivo does, and much more.

Whether they ever get there, meh - dunno. Nothing I've seen from them so far in the STB arena impresses me, but they could be a real player a few years down the road. I would consider it a fairly safe bet that, given their current goals, they're not going to let Tivo software on their boxes.

But then again, I've been known to loose safe bets all the time.. Only time will tell...

-Ken


----------



## Budget_HT

bkdtv said:


> ...The DirecTV NDS HD-DVR uses an older hardware design based on 2004 technology--- more specifically, it uses the BCM7038/BCM7411 combo. The BCM7038 formed the basis of the DirecTivo HR10-250 as well. DirecTV took the HR10-250 design, added on a separate BCM7411 MPEG-4 decoder, and doubled the memory. Obviously there are some other changes to the devices on the PCI bus (one ATSC tuner instead of two), but the "heart" of the two boxes is the same.
> ...


Are you sure about having only one ATSC tuner in the HR20-700 DirecTV HD HDVR?


----------



## etemple

cwoody222 said:


> (if this IS all true, I'll be REALLY PISSED that TiVo can steal Apple's design but STILL can't get a Mac version of TiVo ToGo... why don't they just slap us Mac users in the face some more?!?!)


+1!!!


----------



## megazone

kdmorse said:


> While I could certainly be wrong, I suspect SA's answer to that would "over our dead bodies". Their new owners (Cisco) have specifically expressed the desire to invade the STB arena full force, by developing their own integrated platform which will do everything Tivo does, and much more.


The SA platform is already open for 3rd party software - see the Pioneer Passport DVR software. The cable operators really have the leverage here. Cisco/SA wants to sell boxes. If Comcast says "We'll only buy more boxes from you if you let TiVo port to your platform. Otherwise we'll start converting to Motorola" - they'll do it.

Motorola already has an advantage with support from TiVo, Microsoft, and Moxi - and their own homegrown software. There is a push to allow cable MSOs to load what they want to.


----------



## bkdtv

> Are you sure about having only one ATSC tuner in the HR20-700 DirecTV HD HDVR?


Actually, no, I believe it has two. I was thinking of the Dish Network HD DVR -- Dish Network also uses Broadcom chipsets.


----------



## Dmon4u

HDTiVo said:


> Don't see nothin' 'bout no HD, but I hear Uhuru is digitally replaced with a _digital_ answering machine. Oh, the irony.
> 
> SciFi did a junior version of this long ago, without changing stuff.


http://comingsoon.net/news/tvnews.php?id=16298

Last sentence, last paragraph:

"Once stations upgrade and start broadcasting HD signals, the episodes will be all ready for viewers to enjoy in HD."

* for the entire story, check out the Link, above.

===

It's hard to believe that most have not made the 'upgrade' !


----------



## bwhaler

mwarner said:


> You know, the monthly service fee may not be $12.95/month. If TiVo is no longer subsidizing the box and thus, making a profit on each sale, do they really need to charge you $12.95 per month? Just a thought...
> 
> -Matt


I hope you are right Matt.

I'll pay 700 bucks to Tivo. Hell, I'll pay $999 for this box.

The thought of a subscription is just too prohibitive in my mind. I know the CEO of Tivo wants to model the cell phone business, but it's not going to work. It works for cell phone companies because it is an oligopoly. Tivo does not have that luxury, regardless of their patent portfolio.

It's why I use the iPod and not one these crappy subscription services. I want to own things, free and clear.

So again Matt, I hope you are right and it's 700 bucks, free and clear. That would be great.

And then I can go back to ignoring all of the TIvo pushed ads--even though I hate them--and mocking the strategy that as a consumer I want advertisements tailored to me.

I just hope Tivo doesn't pull a Sony PS3 and miss the boat with an expensive product which is late and comes with too many headaches.

I'm rooting for ya Tivo. Please don't disappoint


----------



## Dan203

Bierboy said:


> ...and you would know this *HOW?*


Because the unit inside is a S3 (based on comparison to pictures from CES and TC Con) and the remote is right as well. So if they are fake then someone from the beta group went througha whole lot of trouble to make a fake box and spoof the packaging.

Not likely. Plus I have a strong hunch that the S3 will be released within the next couple of weeks. Not just because of the info in this thread but other hints as well such as the current rebate ending, CEDIA going one, etc... It all just adds up.

Dan


----------



## bkdtv

> It's why I use the iPod and not one these crappy subscription services. I want to own things, free and clear.


I love subscription services.  Rhapsody and Netflix are both excellent.

I pay ~$8/mo for Rhapsody and that gives me unlimited playback on just about every song available via iTunes. I can choose from millions of songs on my PC at home, on my PC at work, in my living room (with Squeezebox), on my PDA (Motorola Q), and in my car (Motorola Q with FM modulator). I could pay a bit more ($15/mo) and download any and all songs to a music player -- except the iPod, which doesn't support PlayForSure --- with no other fees or costs. I can't imagine ever paying $1.00 for a song again -- not when you can legally listen to an unlimited number of new songs every month for just $8.

Essentially, Rhapsody Unlimited is Netflix for music, except it's available almost anytime and anywhere. I'm still waiting for someone to offer a subscription for broadband movie service -- at DVD or HDTV quality. Most movies I'll only watch once or twice, so it makes little sense to buy them. If you are going to pay $15 just to watch a movie once, you might as well see every movie in the local cinema.

I just wish Tivo would add Rhapsody support to their box so I could use it in every room where I have a DVR, without the need for the Squeezebox. And I really hope they can partner with someone to make high-quality broadband movie delivery (not overcompressed SD crap) a reality. The Series3 features 100Mbps ethernet and support for both AVC (H.264) and WM9 HDTV, so the hardware will soon be here to support it.

(Apple's Quicktime 720p trailers run 5-6 Mbps.)


----------



## DCIFRTHS

kdmorse said:


> ... While I could certainly be wrong, I suspect SA's answer to that would "over our dead bodies". Their new owners (Cisco) have specifically expressed the desire to invade the STB arena full force, by developing their own integrated platform which will do everything Tivo does, and much more. ...
> 
> -Ken


If the S3 works even half as well as the S2 boxes, then Cisco is going to have one hell of a fight on their hands. I currently use the SA8300HD *only* because it records HD. As far the interface goes... well let's just say that calling it in interface is giving it more credit than it deserves...

If they want to differentiate themselves from the pack, Cisco would be better off paying TiVo to create a front end for the SA boxes that has some unique features that other box manufacturers don't have.


----------



## ChuckyBox

And for that matter, has anybody else noticed that on the TiVo home page, the 'Did someone say "FREE"?' background is very similar to a couple of the Apple "Aqua Blue" desktop backgrounds that come with OSX?

I'm just sayin'.


----------



## Bierboy

ChuckyBox said:


> And for that matter, has anybody else noticed that on the TiVo home page, the 'Did someone say "FREE"?' background is very similar to a couple of the Apple "Aqua Blue" desktop backgrounds that come with OSX?
> 
> I'm just sayin'.


[halfhearted attempt at ChuckyBox-like sarcasm]
The only thing FREE ('cept for us peons) is the multi-thousand dollar jaunts (that our sub fees underwrite) for the TiVo execs to the Tellurides with snow bunnies in tow. No wonder the S3 isn't out yet 
[/halfhearted attempt at ChuckyBox-like sarcasm]


----------



## TiVoMonkey

DCIFRTHS said:


> If they want to differentiate themselves from the pack, Cisco would be better off paying TiVo to create a front end for the SA boxes that has some unique features that other box manufacturers don't have.


Cisco/SA software isn't the only software the will run on these boxes.

Time Warner Cable is using Pioneer Passport software on their SA8000/8300 boxes. And Time Warner will likely be dumping that for their own in house software.

So TiVo can easily create software for these boxes, without Cisco/SA having to ask them. It's the cable companies that will be choosing the software to run on their boxes.


----------



## WeKnSmith

I don't personally feel that $799 is too high of a price (yes, I would prefer to pay less). It is however interesting to see how in this thread on DSL reports almost everyone feels that the price is significantly too high.

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/77793


----------



## cwoody222

Yup. And I guess the geeks (me included) who hang out in a forum dedicated to broadband access doesn't include many "high end" consumers.


----------



## HDTiVo

WeKnSmith said:


> I don't personally feel that $799 is too high of a price (yes, I would prefer to pay less). It is however interesting to see how in this thread on DSL reports almost everyone feels that the price is significantly too high.
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/77793


It should be 98.3% negative.

TiVo is not doing anything wrong at $799 as long as they follow up with timely price reductions on the way to HD mainstream levels.


----------



## MickeS

While $800 is high, some people react as if it was $8000. I mean, come on... a good vcr used to cost that much, receivers cost that much, new TV's cost WAY more... I don't understand why $800 is seen as so exorbitant.


----------



## ChuckyBox

cwoody222 said:


> Yup. And I guess the geeks (me included) who hang out in a forum dedicated to broadband access doesn't include many "high end" consumers.


One possible definition of "high end consumer" is "someone whose staff hangs out in a forum dedicated to broadband access."


----------



## mcharkowski

I think the concern over the $799 price is that there is talk, even at that price, of a monthly service fee as well. The $799 may not be a sticking point on its own, remember Replay units cost almost this much when they first arrived. The difference is that the Replay units were a lifetime service. A monthly fee can survive if the cost of the equipment is subsidized, like cell phones currently, or STB fees from cable. But to have the full cost PLUS a monthly service fee will not work for much of anyone. 

I think the current state of the market for Blu-Ray and HD-DVD shows us just how much people are willing to pay for Hi-Def accessories. Even early adopters aren't buying these technologies (true, the format war is responsible for much of this) when the players cost in the $750-$1000 range. Many of these "early adopters" have just put every last cent they could possibly afford into a beautiful new television. There is no money left for S3 TiVo's or HD DVD players.


----------



## Dan203

MickeS said:


> While $800 is high, some people react as if it was $8000. I mean, come on... a good vcr used to cost that much, receivers cost that much, new TV's cost WAY more... I don't understand why $800 is seen as so exorbitant.


I'm with you. However I think the issue is that a lot of these people came to TiVo after the S2 units started selling for $100 after rebate. Which, by contrast, makes the $800 S3 very expensive.

Dan


----------



## Bierboy

mcharkowski said:


> I think the concern over the $799 price is that there is talk, even at that price, of a monthly service fee as well....


It's more than just talk; it's reality. You WILL pay a monthly service fee (or annual).


----------



## Dan203

mcharkowski said:


> I think the concern over the $799 price is that there is talk, even at that price, of a monthly service fee as well. The $799 may not be a sticking point on its own, remember Replay units cost almost this much when they first arrived. The difference is that the Replay units were a lifetime service. A monthly fee can survive if the cost of the equipment is subsidized, like cell phones currently, or STB fees from cable. But to have the full cost PLUS a monthly service fee will not work for much of anyone.


The first TiVo cost over $1,000 AND required service fee. By the time it dropped to $399 in March of 2000 TiVo had over 30,000 subscribers. That means that in just a years time 30,000 people payed somehwere between $699-$1199 for a TiVo with much less technology then the S3.

As for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, the reason they're seeing lackluster sales is because of the lack of content. With only about 30 movies available in either format, and with those movies costing almost $30 each, it's hard to justify the high cost. If the studios had thousands of titles that cost only $10-$15 each then the players would be flying off the shelves even at their current high prices.

Dan


----------



## aztivo

I love how people act like this unit is $799 (until tivo announces we wont know for sure) and there will be a gun put to them to buy it. If you don't like the price don't buy for those of us that can justify be happy for us. Like almost everything ever sold after a while the price will come down. 

thats my opinion and i am sticking to it


----------



## greenstork

Dan203 said:


> The first TiVo cost over $1,000 AND required service fee. By the time it dropped to $399 in March of 2000 TiVo had over 30,000 subscribers. That means that in just a years time 30,000 people payed somehwere between $699-$1199 for a TiVo with much less technology then the S3.


But much more technology than anything else available on the market at that time. Not true today. There are other HD recording options, although they may pale in comparison to the TiVo, some would argue (although not me) that choosing TiVo over a DVR from the Cable Co. is just a matter of taste.


----------



## Turtleboy

aztivo said:


> I love how people act like this unit is $799 (until tivo announces we wont know for sure) and there will be a gun put to them to buy it. If you don't like the price don't buy for those of us that can justify be happy for us. Like almost everything ever sold after a while the price will come down.
> 
> thats my opinion and i am sticking to it


+1.

People always think that they are entitled to something.

In fact, the surest way to make the price to plummet is for no one to buy it.

It's amazing how many people don't understand simple economics, or if they do, totally disregard it and don't care b/c they want soemthing for nothing.


----------



## Turtleboy

Oh, and I'm going to wait till they get the bugs out and the price comes down a bit.

But do I begrudge Tivo the right to charge whatever they want? Of course not. This is America.


----------



## Dan203

greenstork said:


> But much more technology than anything else available on the market at that time. Not true today. There are other HD recording options, although they may pale in comparison to the TiVo, some would argue (although not me) that choosing TiVo over a DVR from the Cable Co. is just a matter of taste.


ReplayTV was available at the same time, and included the cost of the subscription in the cost of the device, yet TiVo out sold it 2:1.

Dan


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Dan203 said:


> ... As for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, the reason they're seeing lackluster sales is because of the lack of content. With only about 30 movies available in either format, and with those movies costing almost $30 each, it's hard to justify the high cost. If the studios had thousands of titles that cost only $10-$15 each then the players would be flying off the shelves even at their current high prices.
> 
> Dan


Let's not rule out confused and angry consumers too.

Most people, that aren't _geeks_ are confused by the two *competing* formats. I am usually an early adopter, but this time I have decided to let the CE manufacturers and the studios pay for their stupidity of not having a unified format. I truly hope they lose a lot of money fighting this battle. Maybe it will teach them to work together for the next big format...


----------



## btwyx

DCIFRTHS said:


> I truly hope they lose a lot of money fighting this battle. Maybe it will teach them to work together for the next big format...


I really hoped they'd learnt from the last big format. The 2 DVD consortia buried their differences just before launch and went on to be the most sucessful CE launch in history. They just seem to have forgotten this with HD-DVD, I'm not adopting until its settled.


----------



## Turtleboy

btwyx said:


> I really hoped they'd learnt from the last big format. The 2 DVD consortia buried their differences just before launch and went on to be the most sucessful CE launch in history. They just seem to have forgotten this with HD-DVD, I'm not adopting until its settled.


Ditto


----------



## SullyND

btwyx said:


> I really hoped they'd learnt from the last big format. The 2 DVD consortia buried their differences just before launch and went on to be the most sucessful CE launch in history. They just seem to have forgotten this with HD-DVD, I'm not adopting until its settled.


Wasn't there still Divx to compete with when DVD first came out?


----------



## btwyx

SullyND said:


> Wasn't there still Divx to compete with when DVD first came out?


Divx as in the pay for play DVDs? That was just on top of the DVD standard, way after the realease of DVD.

Here's some history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD#History


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Dan203 said:


> ReplayTV was available at the same time, and included the cost of the subscription in the cost of the device, yet TiVo out sold it 2:1.
> 
> Dan


Yep and when I was looking at the two before I had drunk the koolaid and trying to figure out whihc to get it came down to the market share as the convicner for me to not worry about Replay so much. I remeber that quite clearly and replay had features listed then that TiVo did not in the form of streaming shows between devices and being able to get shows off the DVR.

I went with the fact there was an active hacking community and could do it myself if TiVo did not come through. Clearly they did comepte on features to me.


----------



## SullyND

btwyx said:


> Divx as in the pay for play DVDs? That was just on top of the DVD standard, way after the realease of DVD.


Nope, DIVX came out roughly at the same time and was NOT the same standard as DVD (It had higher encryption). Some studios originally were only going to release on DIVX and it was seen as a threat to DVD. (It's all in the wiki you linked to too EDIT: Or rather here.).


----------



## HiDefGator

I don't think it is reasonable to compare the cost of Tivo when it first came out to Tivo charging $800 for an S3. The problem people have with the $800 price is that I can get a similar box from DTV for $300 or from cable for $10 a month. 

I'm sorry but the Tivo software is not THAT much better to justify the price difference. In the end it is just recording TV shows and playing them back.

I'm doubful that Tivo will sell many at that price. Last quarter they only acquired 30,000 net new subscribers and they were practically giving the DT away to do that. And just for reference, 30K was less new subscribers than they added in the same quarter a year ago.


----------



## megazone

Why do people keep stating the obvious?

They're not going to sell a lot of Series3 boxes at $800. EVERYONE knows that, TiVo included. But they will sell SOME to early adopters, aka gadget freaks and suckers - like myself.

Then the price will come down a notch, and they'll sell more.

Then the price will come down another notch, and they'll sell even more.

That's how it is with pretty much ever new device that comes out. There is more than just manufacturing costs at play too - there is R&D investment. They'll make a higher return per box at first, then drop that over time. And as manufacturing ramps up, costs come down.

If people think it is too expensive - just don't buy it. Wait. It will cost less in the future.


----------



## btwyx

SullyND said:


> Nope, DIVX came out roughly at the same time


From the linked articles:

"The first DVD players and discs were available in November 1996 in Japan, March 1997 in the United States"

"The DIVX rental system was created in 1998 in time for the holiday season"

DIVX was launched when DVD was already quite established.

Edit: I'd also been following the fortunes of DVD since before the joining in 1995, so it may seem a little later to me.


----------



## HDTiVo

megazone said:


> Why do people keep stating the obvious?


Its all we have left.


----------



## bkdtv

> I don't think it is reasonable to compare the cost of Tivo when it first came out to Tivo charging $800 for an S3. The problem people have with the $800 price is that I can get a similar box from DTV for $300 or from cable for $10 a month.


The hardware isn't quite comparable. The DirecTV and cable boxes have no networking or computer integration. With a few exceptions, they have no support for external hard drives or capacity expansion. Cable boxes don't have off-air tuners. Cable boxes rarely feature hard drives larger than 160Gb, and most are 120Gb -- less than one-half the capacity of the Series3. Cable boxes don't support AVC (MPEG-4 H.264) and WM9 HDTV. Cable boxes won't act as media centers to let you play back music and video (ultimately, high-def video) stored on your computer.

When you pay for a Series3, you aren't just paying for the superior software. You're also paying for the superior hardware. It's like comparing a 3GHz Mac Pro with OSX to a 1GHz PC running Windows 95. You don't expect them to cost the same thing.


----------



## Dan203

Who cares! Divx fell flat on it's face within months of launch. The two competing HD disks both seem to be fairly healthy, which means we're looking at more of a DVD-R vs DVD+R type war where both formats are around for the long haul and consumers have to be careful that they buy the right format for their player unless they have a dual format machine. That sucks because there will inevitably be some titles that are "exclusvie" to one format or the other, and consumers will get screwed because of it.

Dan


----------



## mumpower

btwyx said:


> From the linked articles:
> 
> "The first DVD players and discs were available in November 1996 in Japan, March 1997 in the United States"
> 
> "The DIVX rental system was created in 1998 in time for the holiday season"
> 
> DIVX was launched when DVD was already quite established.
> 
> Edit: I'd also been following the fortunes of DVD since before the joining in 1995, so it may seem a little later to me.


I too was following the hardware changes at the time. I was an early adopter by DVD standards and I didn't get one until the spring of 1999. There was not a resolution of which format would win until the fall of 99. Circuit City in particular was pushing DIVX like there was no tomorrow. It's not coincidental that the market exploded only after DIVX had thrown in the towel.

Mainstream consumers are generally unwilling to commit until such a time as a clear cut favorite has emerged. DVD most assuredly had not done that upon DIVX's release despite the fact that anyone with a brain could see expired rental DVDs were doomed to failure.


----------



## mumpower

WeKnSmith said:


> I don't personally feel that $799 is too high of a price (yes, I would prefer to pay less). It is however interesting to see how in this thread on DSL reports almost everyone feels that the price is significantly too high.
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/77793


I find this particularly alarming. If the $799 MSRP is wrong, TiVo needs to get out in front of this and say so. Since they aren't, this leads me to believe the die is cast. Roughly 30 hours of Hi-def video for that price is just plain silly.

A sitemate of mine suggested using TiVos with massive storage as dummy boxes for file transfer of hi-def. Has it been determined whether that's possible or will the old boxes have no idea how to read the dense HD files?


----------



## Dan203

The old boxes will not be able to read the HD files. However the S3 will have an eSATA port which will allow you to add an external hard drive to increase the storage. If you add a 750GB drive you could increase the HD storage to 120 hours and the SD storage capacity to almost 1200 hours.

Dan


----------



## 1283

mumpower said:


> If the $799 MSRP is wrong, TiVo needs to get out in front of this and say so. Since they aren't, this leads me to believe the die is cast.


Since when is a company obligated to respond to rumors?


----------



## Bierboy

Dan203 said:


> The old boxes will not be able to read the HD files. However the S3 will have an eSATA port which will allow you to add an external hard drive to increase the storage. If you add a 750GB drive you could increase the HD storage to 120 hours and the SD storage capacity to almost 1200 hours.
> 
> Dan


Dan -
I've been surfing today looking for eSATA drives. Seagate has a 300gb and 500gb. Are there some reliable 750s out there?


----------



## Bierboy

c3 said:


> Since when is a company obligated to respond to rumors?


ha....since never :up: touche!!


----------



## 1283

Don't buy the external drive with 1-year warranty. Get an internal drive with 5-year warranty and an external case.


----------



## m_jonis

bkdtv said:


> The hardware isn't quite comparable. The DirecTV and cable boxes have no networking or computer integration. With a few exceptions, they have no support for external hard drives or capacity expansion. Cable boxes don't have off-air tuners. Cable boxes rarely feature hard drives larger than 160Gb, and most are 120Gb -- less than one-half the capacity of the Series3. Cable boxes don't support AVC (MPEG-4 H.264) and WM9 HDTV. Cable boxes won't act as media centers to let you play back music and video (ultimately, high-def video) stored on your computer.
> 
> When you pay for a Series3, you aren't just paying for the superior software. You're also paying for the superior hardware. It's like comparing a 3GHz Mac Pro with OSX to a 1GHz PC running Windows 95. You don't expect them to cost the same thing.


Do we know yet for a fact that the S3 will have full MRV and TTG? I thought I'd seen WAY back when (I could be wrong) that they weren't sure if the movie studios/hollywood would allow for MRV for HD content, etc.


----------



## greg_burns

Has anyone found an external RAID array the works with eSata? I would rather pay more for the RAID and save $$$ on the drives. 3x400GB (mirrored) vs. 1 750GB. Plus the protection mirroring offers.

I understand it is not even known if we can use non blessed drives. Just want to know what's our options are.


----------



## mumpower

c3 said:


> Since when is a company obligated to respond to rumors?


This isn't 1995 any more. Sony is proof positive of how important it is to get in front of net rumors. They've taken it on the chin repeatedly due to arrogance over web reports.


----------



## eric_mcgovern

HiDefGator said:


> I'm sorry but the Tivo software is not THAT much better to justify the price difference. In the end it is just recording TV shows and playing them back.
> 
> I'm doubful that Tivo will sell many at that price. Last quarter they only acquired 30,000 net new subscribers and they were practically giving the DT away to do that. And just for reference, 30K was less new subscribers than they added in the same quarter a year ago.


HA! The DVR from my cable company CAN'T record shows and play them back..there in lies the problem. I would go for the cable solution even if it worked well as a glorified VCR, but they can't even get that right. I don'think I am very alone in this statement either, judging by the negative posts around the interent regarding most cable company DVR's.

You have to keep in mind that a good chunk of people are waiting for the High Def TiVo, so it doesn't surprise me that their new subs went down.


----------



## mumpower

Bierboy said:


> Dan -
> I've been surfing today looking for eSATA drives. Seagate has a 300gb and 500gb. Are there some reliable 750s out there?


Outpost has one for $330 today.

http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4924331


----------



## bkdtv

jonis,

MRV for cable content is questionable. There's nothing preventing MRV for content from the broadcast networks, however, which represents 80+% of primetime viewing. Tivo's MRV is certified for broadcast network content.

Still unknown whether any form of MRV will be supported when the Series3 ships in 2-3 weeks, but Tivo has said they are working on it.


----------



## mumpower

Dan203 said:


> The old boxes will not be able to read the HD files. However the S3 will have an eSATA port which will allow you to add an external hard drive to increase the storage. If you add a 750GB drive you could increase the HD storage to 120 hours and the SD storage capacity to almost 1200 hours.
> 
> Dan


Fascinating, thanks. Is 120 hours of HD the amount with a single 750GB hard drive or is that including the 250GB it comes with? In other words, if there are dual 750GB drives put in, what's the max HD storage space at the moment?


----------



## bkdtv

> Outpost has one for $330 today.
> 
> http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4924331


I think the 500Gb Western Digital RE2 WD5000YS is the drive to get. Storagereview tested 500Gb drives and found it to be 1) the fastest or second fastest in most tests, 2) by far the quietest, 3) by far the coolest running, and 4) by far the cheapest. It costs ~$190.

http://www.storagereview.com/articles/200607/500_1.html

HDTV from HBO consumes around 5.0-6.0Gb per hour, while maximum-quality OTA HDTV consumes 8.6Gb per hour.


----------



## bkdtv

> there are dual 750GB drives put in, what's the max HD storage space at the moment?


Dual 750Gb drives would give you somewhere between 175 and 285 hours of HDTV capacity, depending on the channel and content.


----------



## mumpower

Why is over the air HD so much larger in terms of file size?


----------



## ah30k

greg_burns said:


> Has anyone found an external RAID array the works with eSata? I would rather pay more for the RAID and save $$$ on the drives. 3x400GB (mirrored) vs. 1 750GB. Plus the protection mirroring offers.
> 
> I understand it is not even known if we can use non blessed drives. Just want to know what's our options are.


The problem is that the 'connection to the host' has to be sata. There are plenty of raid controllers that use sata drives, but the host connection is usually pci or ethernet. I did some preliminary hunting and couldn't find a raid controller that connects to the host via sata. Might be a good opportunity for a company.


----------



## btwyx

mumpower said:


> Why is over the air HD so much larger in terms of file size?


HD compared to SD or OTA compared to not OTA?

HD compared to SD is because HD has much more information in it, that's why its HD.

OTA HD compared to say satellite HD, because the Satellite companies muck with the signal to make it smaller (and thus cheaper to broadcast) which reduces quality.

OTA HD is about the best signal available to you, and quality and size vary inversely.


----------



## moyekj

mumpower said:


> Why is over the air HD so much larger in terms of file size?


 Larger compared to what? If it's compared to D* it's because they downrez (HDLite). However, many cable companies are simply passing along the OTA HD locals without downrezing or doing much bit-rate shaping. In my Cox OC market the network channel OTA HD and the Cox feeds have virtually identical bit rates.

Even for OTA HD broadcasts can vary largely in size. One big difference is 720p (used by ABC, FOX, ESPN among others) vs 1080i - 1080i takes more bandwidth than 720p. The difference is quite striking: 5-6 GB/hour for 720p vs 8-9 GB/hour for 1080i. That's why statements like 30 hours of HD recording space for a 250GB drive don't really make any sense - it depends largely on what you are recording.


----------



## greg_burns

ah30k said:


> The problem is that the 'connection to the host' has to be sata. There are plenty of raid controllers that use sata drives, but the host connection is usually pci or ethernet. I did some preliminary hunting and couldn't find a raid controller that connects to the host via sata. Might be a good opportunity for a company.


I'm thinking something like this. But more drives.

http://www.usbgear.com/SV-2RSA1.html


----------



## mumpower

btwyx said:


> OTA HD compared to say satellite HD, because the Satellite companies muck with the signal to make it smaller (and thus cheaper to broadcast) which reduces quality.


I had no idea, thanks.


----------



## mumpower

moyekj said:


> Larger compared to what?


I was asking for clarification since there was such an enormous potential difference in storage space given in an earlier reply. (over 100 hours).



> Even for OTA HD broadcasts can vary largely in size. One big difference is 720p (used by ABC, FOX, ESPN among others) vs 1080i - 1080i takes more bandwidth than 720p. The difference is quite striking: 5-6 GB/hour for 720p vs 8-9 GB/hour for 1080i. That's why statements like 30 hours of HD recording space for a 250GB drive don't really make any sense - it depends largely on what you are recording.


Are there any file size results stated for 1080p yet?


----------



## bkdtv

> Are there any file size results stated for 1080p yet?


There aren't any broadcast or cable channels that use 1080p30 video.

A lot of film-source content is 1080p/24 and delivered with repeat flags as 1080i60. If you have a recent 1080p television, it can reconstruct the 1080p image.


----------



## bkdtv

> I had no idea, thanks.


As one example, consider that HDnet is originally distributed with ~18.2Mbps 1920x1080 video. DirecTV downconverts this to 1280x1080i and filters out high frequency information (picture detail) so they can fit this channel in about 10-12Mbps. On some cable providers, you get the full / original ~18.2Mbps video signal, and on some other cable providers, you may get a slightly degraded signal (14-16Mbs).

Even on one channel, the storage requirements can vary significantly by the content being shown. Film-sourced content tends to require less bandwidth than video-sourced content, and content with fast motion (like sports) requires the most bandwidth of all. Whenever you see blurring or pixelization with motion on a high-def sports broadcast, that's generally because the provider isn't dedicating sufficient bandwidth to the channel.

The space required for HDTV depends not only on the channel and its content, but also on your particular provider, how much bandwidth they have, and how many channels they are trying to squeeze on their system.


----------



## 1283

greg_burns said:


> I'm thinking something like this. But more drives.
> 
> http://www.usbgear.com/SV-2RSA1.html


http://www.lacie.com/products/range.htm?id=10033


----------



## HiDefGator

eric_mcgovern said:


> You have to keep in mind that a good chunk of people are waiting for the High Def TiVo, so it doesn't surprise me that their new subs went down.


Let me get this right. You believe that there are tens of thousands of people out there that have no Tivo today, have never had a Tivo, and are waiting for the S3 before buying their first Tivo DVR? These are the same people that aren't buying the DT today even though it is almost free?

I'm having trouble believing that is true. The numbers seem to suggest that for the most part existing Tivo owners are buying most of the DT's being sold. And that the majority of the S3 buyers will also be existing Tivo owners.


----------



## kdmorse

Don't forget about all us S1/S2 owners who have no need for a DT box at all, even if it's low cost. Why on earth would we replace our Lifetime Subbed S2's with Monthly DT's while we're waiting for the S3 which is right around the corner?

But we certainly want a S3 as it adds something the DT box doesn't - HD. 

I think you're underestimating the number of folks in that situation - although there probably aren't tens of thousands of us.

-Ken


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Dan203 said:


> Who cares! Divx fell flat on it's face within months of launch. The two competing HD disks both seem to be fairly healthy, which means we're looking at more of a DVD-R vs DVD+R type war where both formats are around for the long haul and consumers have to be careful that they buy the right format for their player unless they have a dual format machine. That sucks because there will inevitably be some titles that are "exclusvie" to one format or the other, and consumers will get screwed because of it.
> 
> Dan


That's exactly why I am not buying into either format. Let the CE companies spend* their * dollars fighting this fight. One of the formats needs to die, or there has to be a marriage of the two for success. SACD or DVD Audio anyone?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

mumpower said:


> I too was following the hardware changes at the time. I was an early adopter by DVD standards and I didn't get one until the spring of 1999. There was not a resolution of which format would win until the fall of 99. Circuit City in particular was pushing DIVX like there was no tomorrow. It's not coincidental that the market exploded only after DIVX had thrown in the towel.
> 
> Mainstream consumers are generally unwilling to commit until such a time as a clear cut favorite has emerged. DVD most assuredly had not done that upon DIVX's release despite the fact that anyone with a brain could see expired rental DVDs were doomed to failure.


I don't remember the dates, but you are correct in your statements. I got a DVD player when one of the few titles available was _Batman_  People at work thought it was another _crazy toy_ I purchased, and not one of them knew what DVD was. My good friend later told me he thought I was nuts when I first told him of DVD (movies on a CD as he put it).

One of the biggest issues with DIVX was the privacy concerns - it had to call in to authorize the disk for viewing. They didn't have to expire as you could "purchase" unlimited viewings of a disk. It was tied to that particular player though.

I boycotted CC until they dropped DIVX. A small blow to CC, but very a gratifying decision for me  In fact, I think I'm the one that dealt the death blow to DIVX...


----------



## eric_mcgovern

HiDefGator said:


> Let me get this right. You believe that there are tens of thousands of people out there that have no Tivo today, have never had a Tivo, and are waiting for the S3 before buying their first Tivo DVR? These are the same people that aren't buying the DT today even though it is almost free?
> 
> I'm having trouble believing that is true. The numbers seem to suggest that for the most part existing Tivo owners are buying most of the DT's being sold. And that the majority of the S3 buyers will also be existing Tivo owners.


While this is by no means scientific...I know at least 10 people who haven't bought a TiVo yet, because they are waiting for the HD version. While I haven't run a poll as to whether or not they will run out the first day it is on store shelves, they won't be too far behind me (who will get it the second I can)

So yes, you have it right, I believe that.


----------



## sonicboom

eric_mcgovern said:


> While this is by no means scientific...I know at least 10 people who haven't bought a TiVo yet, because they are waiting for the HD version.


Make me number 11 (even though you don't know me).

Hi folks... I've been waiting for an HD tivo cable solution for 3+ years. I'm ecstatic knowing its only a matter of days away. I'm going to buy one the moment its released regardless of the cost. I think Tivo earned their R&D dollars on this one.

I used to own a Sony SVR-2000 Tivo (with lifetime) when it first came out. I loved that machine. I sold it just prior to moving across country, thinking by the time I got settled in my new digs, the HD tivo would be out (afterall Directivo had it). That was over 3 years ago. Boy was I ever wrong.

I bought a couple ReplayTv systems to hold me over. They had video streaming before tivo, good computer integration (DVArchive), and commercial skip. A high wow factor for the time, but the Tivo interface couldn't be beat... and I (and my wife) always missed that.

One of my Replays kicked the bucket, and the other is starting to act-up, so it was time to check-in on what Tivo was up to. I was pleasently surprised to learn the series 3 is right around the corner.

Finally, the day is almost here. I've read most of the recent Series 3 posts, and I can't wait for this thing to ship so I can return to TivoLand.

I have comcast in my area, and am aware of the tivo support coming for the motorola platform. While it probably makes more financial sense for me to go with the comcast tivo, I don't care. I want a *real* tivo box (the one I've been waiting for), with 100% tivo support and greater storage capacity.

The only bummer is the monthly subscription. The intial cost of the unit is one thing, but monthly service payments are a drag.


----------



## jeffrypennock

ZombiE said:


> I feel like I'm waiting for my kid to be born, and he was two weeks late!!!!


I hear that!


----------



## ZeoTiVo

DCIFRTHS said:


> I boycotted CC until they dropped DIVX. A small blow to CC, but very a gratifying decision for me  In fact, I think I'm the one that dealt the death blow to DIVX...


actually I was doing IT support work for the group at the CD/DVD manufacture CC was using. The engineers were going gang busters for a while but My manager and I agreed to be slow in actually committing the capital budget for that project. We bought some of the IT support hardware but specced it for a different project we had both of us assuming it would die on the vine. The engineers became "somewhat" frustrated with me and the pace of IT support.  and we happily soon enough pulled the hardware from storage for the other warehouse automation project and had ourselves a very good budget control for the year.

I did help doom DiVX as it so rightly and obviously deserved.


----------



## jmace57

skanter said:


> I plan to be a -late adaptor- to the S3.
> 
> 
> 
> Price will have to come way down before I trade-in my free SA 8300HD box.


Exactly - me too. I was an early adopter of the HMO features - never again. I'll wait for a year or so...

Jim


----------



## MickeS

The reason HD disc players aren't flying out of the stores have IMO little to do with the format war or lack of titles, or even price.

It has to do with the fact that there is no significant benefit to HD versus DVD. The difference between VHS and DVD was huge - portability, ease of use, features and versatility. The quality was better too, but it was secondary, IMO - you still saw people hook up their DVD players using composite connections and L/R audio, which provided only minor improvements in that area.

HD has better sound and picture - that's it. And it's not enough to get people excited. Just like DVD-Audio and SACD has failed to reach mainstream status, so will HD disc players... at least until they cost the same as DVD players, and people get them because DVD-players are gone.


----------



## TexasAg

MickeS said:


> HD has better sound and picture - that's it.


What more could I ask for in terms of watching movies??


----------



## bkdtv

> It has to do with the fact that there is no significant benefit to HD versus DVD. The difference between VHS and DVD was huge - portability, ease of use, features and versatility. The quality was better too, but it was secondary, IMO - you still saw people hook up their DVD players using composite connections and L/R audio, which provided only minor improvements in that area.


The quality improvement with HD-DVD over DVD *is substantial* if you have a >50" display with 1080p resolution. The larger the display, the more substantial the difference. In addition, the interactivity features supported by HD-DVD (and in future Blu-ray players) are light years ahead of what you get on DVD.

The prices and dimensions for large screen displays continue to fall. Within a few years, you'll be able to put hang a 60" 1080p display on your wall for about $1000. Of course HDTV looks much better on a large screen, but you've also got to consider that *SD channels can look very bad* when blown up on large screen. You aren't comparing good versus great; rather you're comparing bad to great, and between those two options, the consumer's choice is obvious.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bkdtv said:


> The quality improvement with HD-DVD over DVD *is substantial*


well that is not the argument being made. And I can see the argument that HD-DVD or Blu Ray are not going to have mass appeal just because of even substantialy better quality. It is *the selling point* to early adopters always looking for the best but I have a wife who listens to our wireless speakers with only one of them turned on. I have experimented and recorded DR Phil and stuff at various quality levels from low to best - she sees no difference to remark of. I know to you and me that sounds absurd but there are many out there like that. The mass market is just not all about the Highest Definition.


----------



## bkdtv

Zeo,

Well, try sticking a 61" screen on your wall, with a 8' viewing distance, and see what she says about Dr. Phill recorded at the lowest quality level. That sort of quality is headache-inducing, at least for me.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bkdtv said:


> Zeo,
> 
> Well, try sticking a 61" screen on your wall, with a 8' viewing distance, and see what she says about Dr. Phill recorded at the lowest quality level. That sort of quality is headache-inducing, at least for me.


and again the mass market is not exactly sticking 61" screens on the wall. please reference the part where I said it sounded absurd to the reader of this thread and me. I already know and see the difference but HD does not just sell itself becasue of better resolution to a LARGE market. So HD and Ble Ray and S3 will have a larger sticker price on them still.

eventually the better resolution will become standard becasue given all other factors the same then a better spec will win. Last I looked 61' screens had a few factors different from a 27 inch CRT


----------



## lessd

bkdtv said:


> The quality improvement with HD-DVD over DVD *is substantial* if you have a >50" display with 1080p resolution. The larger the display, the more substantial the difference. In addition, the interactivity features supported by HD-DVD (and in future Blu-ray players) are light years ahead of what you get on DVD.
> 
> The prices and dimensions for large screen displays continue to fall. Within a few years, you'll be able to put hang a 60" 1080p display on your wall for about $1000. Of course HDTV looks much better on a large screen, but you've also got to consider that *SD channels can look very bad* when blown up on large screen. You aren't comparing good versus great; rather you're comparing bad to great, and between those two options, the consumer's choice is obvious.


Not so !! I have a 65" Optoma HDTV and when I first got it the cable co gave me HBO HD for two months. HBO-HD played a movie I also had in DVD. I recorded the HBO in HD on my Moto HD DVR and played back both at the same time, there was a difference when I switch TV inputs but not much of one. By setting up your DVD player for 16:9 you get 30% more resolution then a normal TV signal. The difference was too small for me to buy a HD DVD for now. Most people that saw the DVD thought is was HD.


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## bkdtv

lessd,

Was your Optoma a 1080p television? If it wasn't, you weren't getting the full resolution. Moreover, the content on HBO-HD isn't really comparable to HD-DVD. HBO HD content is heavily vertically filtered to fit within 10-13Mbps, whereas the content on HD-DVD is not, and offers resolution more comparable to the film's master.


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## CCourtney

Les,

What inputs were you feeding to your TV? What was the output signal from the Moto Box set to? Was the movie actually in HD, not all movies aired on HBO HD are in HD, and not all of those that are aired are decent quality HD. Star Wars III was an exception and was an awesome HD feed.

I call tell the difference between my DVD player, an UpConverting DVD player (fair amount better - but not HD quality), my HTPC UpConverting and feeding TV via DVI (even better than 'Good' Upconverting DVD players - still no HD), then Real HD - Totally Awesome.

If you can't tell a significant difference then you've got problems. Either you're feeding your TV with a bad feed (Moto box setup, Feeding TV w/ S-video or Composite video (i.e. using SD feeds), Movie that you watched and compared wasn't actually HD - always a possibility), your HDTV is f'd up, or you seriously need an eye exam.

CCourtney


----------



## TiVo Troll

CCourtney said:


> Les,
> 
> What inputs were you feeding to your TV? What was the output signal from the Moto Box set to? Was the movie actually in HD, not all movies aired on HBO HD are in HD, and not all of those that are aired are decent quality HD. Star Wars III was an exception and was an awesome HD feed.
> 
> I call tell the difference between my DVD player, an UpConverting DVD player (fair amount better - but not HD quality), my HTPC UpConverting and feeding TV via DVI (even better than 'Good' Upconverting DVD players - still no HD), then Real HD - Totally Awesome.
> 
> If you can't tell a significant difference then you've got problems. Either you're feeding your TV with a bad feed (Moto box setup, Feeding TV w/ S-video or Composite video (i.e. using SD feeds), Movie that you watched and compared wasn't actually HD - always a possibility), your HDTV is f'd up, or you seriously need an eye exam.
> 
> CCourtney


Ha! Tell the difference? I definitely can see the difference. But y'know what? It's still just marketing and sales! (Which rhymes with sails, so it's time to ship 'em out, no?)

Spend $10,000 (or less) on audio and it's hard to tell the difference between some musical performances and live performers. Spend that (or even $50,000) and there's no doubt whatsoever that what you're seeing is an amazingly crisp huge moving picture, but it will never be mistaken for live!

Holographic 3D TV and associated DVR's which could trick you into actually believing that their displays are "live" are probably less than 25 years away, plus perhaps five years more before they reach an equivalent price point to today's $2000 offerings.

It's all just hype! Nobody needs it, but a lot of us can be talked into wanting it.


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## Welshdog

They only way to reliably demonstrate the difference between the various TV formats is to make a side by side comparison. This can almost never be arranged in any mass market store. Even under perfect conditions some people are still not going to see or appreciate the difference. Also consider the fact that obtaining the most perfect HD image is still a rather tricky pursuit and that one has to do a lot of research to succeed. If you build the perfect 1080p system you'll get breathtaking images. However, if you try to view SD on that system it's going to look bad - period. I think most of us can be happy with a 720p system because we will be living in a mixed resolution world for quite some time. A 720p display will look great with almost any HD feed and should still present an acceptable SD image as well. At one point I was staunchly insisting that my next TV would be a 1080p native display - now I am reconsidering. This article cleared up a few things for me:

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/1080p_a_year_later.html

Of particular interest is the fact that Blu Ray and HD-DVD store the images at 1080p/24 which is a frame rate almost no display will support. This means that a messy conversion has to take place inside the player before you can get a watchable image on your monitor. I hate stuff like that.

I also agree that it is very likely the HD disc players will become ubiquitous not by overwhelming demand, but rather by SD-DVD players no longer being sold. It might take a while for that to happen too.


----------



## lessd

CCourtney said:


> Les,
> 
> What inputs were you feeding to your TV? What was the output signal from the Moto Box set to? Was the movie actually in HD, not all movies aired on HBO HD are in HD, and not all of those that are aired are decent quality HD. Star Wars III was an exception and was an awesome HD feed.
> 
> I call tell the difference between my DVD player, an UpConverting DVD player (fair amount better - but not HD quality), my HTPC UpConverting and feeding TV via DVI (even better than 'Good' Upconverting DVD players - still no HD), then Real HD - Totally Awesome.
> 
> If you can't tell a significant difference then you've got problems. Either you're feeding your TV with a bad feed (Moto box setup, Feeding TV w/ S-video or Composite video (i.e. using SD feeds), Movie that you watched and compared wasn't actually HD - always a possibility), your HDTV is f'd up, or you seriously need an eye exam.
> 
> CCourtney


My HD TV is two years old and has res. of only 720 X 1280 which I know is not as good as the new 1080i HD TVs now, but it looks dam good to me, Leno's show is specular at least compared to the output of TiVo DVD unit using the component cables. The DVD player is connected by component cables to a SD input on the TV. This TV has a state-of-the-art deinterlacing (their spelling not mine) so the DVD is setup for 480i at 16:9 as the TV manual said to do. The cable box is connected by a HDMI to DVI (on the TV) cable. The HBO movie was HD and looked better then the DVD but not knock your socks off better. The HD on this TV compared to a normal input is knock your socks off better. I am thrilled with the system as it is, but I know better is out there (1080p). I will have to see the difference someday at a showroom. I will not be replacing this TV for many years and see no need ti invest in a HD-DVD now.


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## mike3775

I have a HD capable TV in my house, and guess what, I NEVER watch the HD channels at all. Why? Because I would have to pay ****cast even more money for stuff that I should already be getting as part of the monthly gouging they get from me every month. There is simply no reason for me to have to pay them an additional $11.95/month to get 35 channels in HD that I already get as part of my normal cable package. Until they quit trying to double bill me for channels, I won't care about HD and never will, and incidentally I didn't buy the TV, it was given to me as a birthday gift.


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## bkdtv

mike,

I'm not sure if you are aware, but Comcast doesn't charge for the local HD channels. They are part of basic cable for ~$15/mo. However, you must have means to actually tune these channels. You could use the Series3 Tivo, or you could rent the HDTV set-top box from Comcast for $5/mo.

As far as cable channels...

Comcast is billed (double-billed, as you say) for those channels, so why shouldn't they pass that cost along to you? High-definition channels are relatively expensive to run --- which is why programming providers like ESPN charge Comcast extra for the high-def feed. That's not to say Comcast doesn't rake in a healthy profit on the digital tier. All the HD channels together cost Comcast a few bucks at most, but obviously they charge you a lot more than that. You have Comcast's cable monopoly to thank for that.

New market entrants like Verizon offer their channels at more appropriate price levels, imo. With Verizon FiOS, you get 180 digital channels, including ~20 HDTV channels, for $35/mo. Check out the typical Verizon FiOS TV lineup right here (HDTV channels on second page).


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## megazone

Welshdog said:


> Of particular interest is the fact that Blu Ray and HD-DVD store the images at 1080p/24 which is a frame rate almost no display will support. This means that a messy conversion has to take place inside the player before you can get a watchable image on your monitor. I hate stuff like that.


That's just one format the discs support. And it isn't new - many DVDs are 480p/24. 3:2 pulldown is a common trick and it doesn't really mean that much.

Blu-ray can also do 1080p/30 and 1080p/60, for example. 24fps is common because that's the framerate of film. So the best direct conversion of flim is 24fps.

There are some displays that can do multiples of 24fps - like some Pioneers can do 72Hz refresh, so each frame is just shown 3 times.


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## Bierboy

bkdtv said:


> ....I'm not sure if you are aware, but Comcast doesn't charge for the local HD channels. They are part of basic cable for ~$15/mo. However, you must have means to actually tune these channels. You could use the Series3 Tivo...


When I had the Sony DHG unit for a few months, this was the same situation (I have Mediacom). Which, in my case, was very helpful, since, to receive all my local HD channels OTA, I had to re-orient my outside antenna. With the Sony, I got all the local HDs in the clear. All but the CBS affil in my market come from one location. But the CBS tower, while only being about 8 miles away, has some very tall trees between it and my antenna making reception tricky (multipath) without fiddling with my rotor. If the S3 enables me to pull my local HDs through cable, I'll be a happy camper.


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## NickIN

mike3775 said:


> I have a HD capable TV in my house, and guess what, I NEVER watch the HD channels at all. Why? Because I would have to pay ****cast even more money for stuff that I should already be getting as part of the monthly gouging they get from me every month. There is simply no reason for me to have to pay them an additional $11.95/month to get 35 channels in HD that I already get as part of my normal cable package. Until they quit trying to double bill me for channels, I won't care about HD and never will, and incidentally I didn't buy the TV, it was given to me as a birthday gift.


I have Brighthouse in Indiana and they give the locals in HD for free. And I'm pretty sure that Brighthouse gives even less things away than Comcast. And if your TV is has a HD tuner you probably don't even need a cable box for it. Might want to check into that.


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## Steeler86

Best Buy now has the Directv HDTV HR20 DVR posted on their website to be available 9/13 through 9/18. It's not TiVo.


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## seattlewendell

bkdtv said:


> The quality improvement with HD-DVD over DVD *is substantial* if you have a >50" display with 1080p resolution. The larger the display, the more substantial the difference. In addition, the interactivity features supported by HD-DVD (and in future Blu-ray players) are light years ahead of what you get on DVD.
> 
> The prices and dimensions for large screen displays continue to fall. Within a few years, you'll be able to put hang a 60" 1080p display on your wall for about $1000. Of course HDTV looks much better on a large screen, but you've also got to consider that *SD channels can look very bad* when blown up on large screen. You aren't comparing good versus great; rather you're comparing bad to great, and between those two options, the consumer's choice is obvious.


The average consumer does not care. When you can get 1080p over the air or from cable then they will care. Reason? They will have something tangible to comapre it to. They go into store san see TV's, HD-DVD and Bluerays players, and they go home to their 480p VCR and they are happy. Unless you plan on going door to door with your 50" and Blueray player (perhaps in a van  ), adaptaion of HD or Blueray is 5 to 7 years away.


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## Welshdog

megazone said:


> That's just one format the discs support. And it isn't new - many DVDs are 480p/24. 3:2 pulldown is a common trick and it doesn't really mean that much.
> 
> Blu-ray can also do 1080p/30 and 1080p/60, for example. 24fps is common because that's the framerate of film. So the best direct conversion of flim is 24fps.
> 
> There are some displays that can do multiples of 24fps - like some Pioneers can do 72Hz refresh, so each frame is just shown 3 times.


Yeah 3:2 is not new (did I say it was? sorry), I deal with it every day as an editor. I think what we can take from my post and your post is that this HD business is very messy. I think the chances of a regular consumer getting it wrong are greater than getting it right. So Blu-Ray can do 1080p/60 *but* most of the displays already in peoples homes don't have an HDMI port that will pass it (display makers only this year started building in the ability to handle 1080p/60). Assuming they even have an HDMi port. We have 1080p/24 as the most common format on a Blu Ray, but almost no displays can handle it. Even if your display can handle 24fps, it proabably won't look all that great due to flicker at that slow rate so it has to be multiplied up to 48 or 72. More processing. Eventually my head will explode dealing with all this.

Back to the topic sort of, I worry that people spending $800 on the S3 might return it when they get it home and it doesn't look all that great because their display isn't well matched to it's output. Maybe this is why Tivo has targeted high end/geek buyers: they stand a better chance of being willing and able to figure it all out and end up as a satisfied customer.


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## MickeS

bkdtv said:


> The quality improvement with HD-DVD over DVD *is substantial* if you have a >50" display with 1080p resolution. The larger the display, the more substantial the difference. In addition, the interactivity features supported by HD-DVD (and in future Blu-ray players) are light years ahead of what you get on DVD.
> 
> The prices and dimensions for large screen displays continue to fall. Within a few years, you'll be able to put hang a 60" 1080p display on your wall for about $1000. Of course HDTV looks much better on a large screen, but you've also got to consider that *SD channels can look very bad* when blown up on large screen. You aren't comparing good versus great; rather you're comparing bad to great, and between those two options, the consumer's choice is obvious.


I agree with most of what you write - but I never argued against it in the first place. 

But I disagree with the last sentence - the consumer's choice is far from obvious.


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## jeffrypennock

The only reason I anticipate returning my S3 is if my cable company stopped supporting CableCARD (and I don't think that will be a problem here in Houston for reasons I expounded on in another forum). Short of that, I can't imagine me or anyone else sending a TiVo box back and returning to cable company SA 8300 HD DVR hell!! Surely people will figure out how to appropriately configure their display.


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## megazone

Welshdog said:


> Back to the topic sort of, I worry that people spending $800 on the S3 might return it when they get it home and it doesn't look all that great because their display isn't well matched to it's output. Maybe this is why Tivo has targeted high end/geek buyers: they stand a better chance of being willing and able to figure it all out and end up as a satisfied customer.


Well, the S3 can output content natively - so whatever it came in as: 480i/480p/720p/1080i. Or you can set it to convert all output to 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i. And with HDMI, component, S-Video, and composite output, hopefully ONE of those combos will work well for any given display. 

If your TV (or receiver) has a good scaler, then Native is probably the best option. If you have a display that can only accept specific HD resolution input, then have the S3 scale it.


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## Vidfreaky

It's definately a sexy unit, but seeing as how I don't have a HD monitor yet I think I'll hold off. lol


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## jeffrypennock

megazone said:


> Well, the S3 can output content natively - so whatever it came in as: 480i/480p/720p/1080i. Or you can set it to convert all output to 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i. And with HDMI, component, S-Video, and composite output, hopefully ONE of those combos will work well for any given display.


You'd think so, right? Of course, maybe we're over-estimating people here. When I decided to switch to HD from SD, I decided to have TWC come out and 'install' HD cable in my living room rather than figuring out which ports were/weren't active on the back of the HD DVR box, then driving onto the mainland for Firewire or HDMI cable, DVI adapters, guessing at how long they needed to be, paying for them...yada yada yada. What a laugh that bright idea turned out to be. The guy showed up with rca component cables in hand. I said, "You're not going to use those for my HD install are you?" He said, "yeah, what else would I use?" I said, "HDMI, Firewire...something better than component." He said, "Why?" I said, "Because if you're not using a cable that transmits an HDCP signal, then you're not sending a purely digital uncompressed signal to my TV." It was clear from the look on his face that he had NO CLUE what I was talking about. I looked frustrated, I'm sure, and I told him to leave the box and go on his way. Of course the last laugh was on me for three reasons:
1) I had to do all the driving around and cord buying that I'd tried to dodge in the first place
2) After I get everything set up with an HDMI-DVI cable, rebundle the cords, etc., I've got this LOVELY 1080i picture; the only hang-up is it's got 2"x2" pixels and sound drop-outs on about half my HD channels because of how much TWC over-compresses the signal (which means that I probably wouldn't have lost all that much using those component cables after all...but I dare not complain about this because we all know how TWC thinks this problem should be solved: SDV).
3) That's DEFINITELY gonna be the guy who has to come out and activate my CableCARDs. Don't ya think?


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## DCIFRTHS

jeffrypennock said:


> ... 3) That's DEFINITELY gonna be the guy who has to come out and activate my CableCARDs. Don't ya think?


Let's hope that it isn't the same guy...

Component cables offer a wonderful picture when the source signal is a quality signal.


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## kdmorse

_The guy showed up with rca component cables in hand. _

I can beat that story the only way possible - RF Modulated Channel 3 over Coax.

That's what my Comcast installer *swore* was the *best* way too hook up the cable box to my HDTV. We even argued about it, and he swore that not only was Coax capable of carrying full HDTV, it was the best way, far superior to component cables.

After hooking it up, he tuned to NBC SD, then flipped to NBC HD, and claimed that because there was picture, that I was seeing HDTV. I was very unhappy, but grew tired of arguing with a brick wall.

The next day I got some component cables from their office for free, hooked em up, set the outputs on the box to 1080i (they were set to.... 480i, he didn't even get that right), and was *then* very happy. (Setting aside the fact that the TV is actually a piece for crap)

And guy's the reason I'm going to fight to my last breath for the ability to do a self install...

-Ken


----------



## cwoody222

My cable installer swore I was seeing HD because (on a widescreen set) the picture was letterboxed. I agreed, he left, then I fixed the problem.


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## 1283

I went to Staples today with Fry's ad. The manager would not pricematch a drive because the ad said "DMA" while the drive said "ATA". I just left because I didn't know how to argue with ignorance.


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## jeffrypennock

Wow, based on the last two posts, I fear for what CC activation process will be like. We've all heard millions of CC horror stories but a lot of those have to do with CC's going in to TVs and glitches regarding that which we would not expect to happen if the CCs are going into a wonderfully designed TiVo box. (a moment of prayer)
Let's hope our three experiences regarding HD installs aren't representative of what we can expect for CC installs (because I have a sinking feeling that *I* will be forced to have someone come out and install my CCs by TWC, even if I offer/beg to do it myself).


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## Welshdog

jeffrypennock said:


> It was clear from the look on his face that he had NO CLUE what I was talking about. I looked frustrated, I'm sure, and I told him to leave the box and go on his way.


That's what I'm talking about.

And the big macro blocks is why I'm not going to bother with digital cable. I've seen it and it is only occasionally good.


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## MickeS

The "best" cable company story I have is when I had sound only in the left speaker on a few of the channels. Long story short, after several weeks and multiple visits, they found a setting at some main switch was set wrong. They flipped it, and it worked. Oops. I asked how many people would have been affected by this, and he said that probably all of them. And yet, I was, apparently, the only one who had reported it. Makes you wonder what people actually use the equipment they spend thousands of dollars on for...

NOT looking forward to dealing with the cable company regarding S3 and the CableCARDs... :/


----------



## jacksonian

jeffrypennock said:


> ...The guy showed up with rca component cables in hand. I said, "You're not going to use those for my HD install are you?" He said, "yeah, what else would I use?" I said, "HDMI, Firewire...something better than component." He said, "Why?" I said, "Because if you're not using a cable that transmits an HDCP signal, then you're not sending a purely digital uncompressed signal to my TV." It was clear from the look on his face that he had NO CLUE what I was talking about....


I think you may want to read up a little more about HDMI vs. Component. HDMI was created purely for copy protection benefits of big studios, NOT to give you a better picture. The common myth is that HDMI is "all digital" so the picture will be better than component. However most folks who have compared the two directly (me with 3 plasmas, 2 projectors, 2 dvd players and a cable box) have seen that the image is better with component in most cases and in the other cases it was a draw.

I'd love to believe that HDMI was meant to provide me a better picture in return for some of the loss of my digital rights with media, but that's simply not the case. Your picture would have looked just as good or better with the component cables he brought. You should do a direct A/B comparison, having a friend switch the inputs for you. I did it blinded with me and several friends. We all either preferred the component (richer colors, smoother image) or couldn't tell the difference.

Just my opinion.


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## lessd

MickeS said:


> The "best" cable company story I have is when I had sound only in the left speaker on a few of the channels. Long story short, after several weeks and multiple visits, they found a setting at some main switch was set wrong. They flipped it, and it worked. Oops. I asked how many people would have been affected by this, and he said that probably all of them. And yet, I was, apparently, the only one who had reported it. Makes you wonder what people actually use the equipment they spend thousands of dollars on for...
> 
> NOT looking forward to dealing with the cable company regarding S3 and the CableCARDs... :/


Had a similar problem with sound, Comcast did not believe me and sent a tech out to my home to replace my box. I had a friend who did not know that he had the problem as he had not watched the program yet. I shower the tech the recorded program with the sound problem, had him call my friend and my friend confirmed the problem. The tech called me the next day saying they found a head end problem and fixed it, all is OK now. I was the only person to report the problem out of thousands who had it but did not know it or take the time to call.


----------



## Mako

Lenonn said:


> I'd consider spending the $800 if it got me a free year of service with it.  But, if that price is true, I'll need to think about it quite a bit. I want, I need one, with the new HD tv, but - it's a little much for my wallet.
> 
> However, that's what credit cards are for.


Since I have a lifetime membership (man was that a good buy), I will happily addopt the S3 if I can transfer my lifetime membership. Otherwise, I will probably wait until the price comes down. My SA8300HD is no TiVo but it works and is free. (I am a Comcast employee so its free for me)


----------



## stevel

jacksonian said:


> I think you may want to read up a little more about HDMI vs. Component. HDMI was created purely for copy protection benefits of big studios, NOT to give you a better picture. The common myth is that HDMI is "all digital" so the picture will be better than component. However most folks who have compared the two directly (me with 3 plasmas, 2 projectors, 2 dvd players and a cable box) have seen that the image is better with component in most cases and in the other cases it was a draw.


I think *you* want to read up a little more on HDMI.

Yes, HDMI can provide copy protection, but it is a high-bandwidth digital video (and audio) signal connection, whereas component is analog video only. For sources that are digital in nature - DVDs and digital TV - and when using digital displays (most plasma, LCD and LCoS displays) - HDMI eliminates conversion to analog and then back to digital again.

Theoretically, HDMI should provide a better picture. What you and others have observed is that some components don't do HDMI right, and these might indeed show a better display with component. There are also compatibility issues, though these are rarer now than they were a year ago.

HDMI is also a single cable rather than three, which can be easier to run. And, of course, it supports copy protection, for good or for bad. (Component has the potential of not letting you see content in HD if the content provider wants to close "the analog hole".)


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## morac

lessd said:


> Had a similar problem with sound, Comcast did not believe me and sent a tech out to my home to replace my box. I had a friend who did not know that he had the problem as he had not watched the program yet. I shower the tech the recorded program with the sound problem, had him call my friend and my friend confirmed the problem. The tech called me the next day saying they found a head end problem and fixed it, all is OK now. I was the only person to report the problem out of thousands who had it but did not know it or take the time to call.


This happens to me rather regularly. Apparently I'm the only one who calls in problems. Unfortunately any time a tech comes out and sees my TiVo he immediately says "it's your TiVo". I then have to disconnect the TiVo to show him otherwise. He then usually blaims it on my TV.

I still have one outstanding issue with Comcast where they seem to be introducing "vertical interlacing" (like regular interlacing issues but vertically) on their digital channels.


----------



## Mako

cwoody222 said:


> $800's too rich for me
> 
> Oh well.
> 
> I don't understand this "it's not for the average consumer". However... cable DVRs that do HD ARE. So what's TiVo hoping to achieve here? A few sales on a niche product? It'll die on the vine that way...


I think they are doing what their customers asked... "Please come out with an HD Tivo!!"

$800 is very reasonable for what the box is delivering. I think prices will probably come down quickly and they may bundle it with service for less upfront cost. We shall see. I still have my hacked Series 1 and use the crap out of it. I bought it about 6 years ago for about 600 bucks. I think I got my money's worth out of it, especially since I have a lifetime subscription to go with it.


----------



## jfh3

Mako said:


> Since I have a lifetime membership (man was that a good buy), I will happily addopt the S3 if I can transfer my lifetime membership.


Not going to happen.


----------



## Mako

cwoody222 said:


> ...and how long have they had to create such services?
> 
> HMO?
> 
> TiVoToGo? (the $ you have to pay for the ability to easily encode for PSP, iPod, etc)
> 
> TiVoCast downloads?
> 
> TiVo's had plenty of time and opportunity to create other revenue channels. They've failed every time.


You are incorrect. They have not failed every time. They have finally secured partnerships with major cable operators (MSOs) to bring the TiVo to the cable subscribers. Whether that takes the form of boxes and software or just software remains to be seen.

It is obvious you have had some problems with TiVo. I am sorry to hear that. But it sounds like it might be clouding your objectivity.


----------



## Mako

jfh3 said:


> Not going to happen.


You say that, but they have already offered to transfer for a Series 2 upgrade. So unless you have a crystal ball, you are just making a WAG (wild-ass-guess). =)


----------



## Troy J B

Mako said:


> You say that, but they have already offered to transfer for a Series 2 upgrade. So unless you have a crystal ball, you are just making a WAG (wild-ass-guess). =)


imo, more of an educated guess. Based on TiVo's current product offerings and the placement of the Series3 in their line-up.


----------



## MickeS

morac said:


> This happens to me rather regularly. Apparently I'm the only one who calls in problems. Unfortunately any time a tech comes out and sees my TiVo he immediately says "it's your TiVo". I then have to disconnect the TiVo to show him otherwise. He then usually blaims it on my TV.


That's exactly what happened to me when I had the problem I described above, but I didn't have a TiVo at the time, only a VCR. They blamed first the VCR, when I removed that the A/V receiver, when I switched that with another one they blamed the SPEAKERS... finally I just used headphones connected to the second receiver so they could hear it... I think it took 2 or 3 service calls to get them to even acknowledge that the problem was on their end and not mine.

I can only imagine what the response will be if a CableCARD causes problems in a TiVo. "Sorry, it's your TiVo, we can't help you."


----------



## 1283

Mako said:


> You say that, but they have already offered to transfer for a Series 2 upgrade. So unless you have a crystal ball, you are just making a WAG (wild-ass-guess). =)


I'm sure many people in this forum are willing to bet $$$ that it will not happen, unless you have a grandfathered Series1. The Series1->Series2 offer was actually *NOT* a good one because you would have paid less by selling the Series1 and then buying the Series2 with new lifetime service.


----------



## Mako

Welshdog said:


> Wow, that is cool. My wife would not allow such a subwoofer. She is a total Tivo addict, and last night when I told her how much the S3 was going to cost I didn't get a complaint. Of course I haven't really lined up all the costs for her yet:
> 
> $3000 for flat panel LCD dispaly
> $850 for Denon DVD player
> $800 for S3 + monthly (we are on lifetime right now)
> $300 for HDMI cable to get from the equipment rack to the display.
> $250 for HDMI switcher
> 
> Anyone want to add something else?


Buy your HDMI cables on ebay. Probably 20-50 bucks (for the length I am assuming you need) =)


----------



## bap

jfh3 said:


> Not going to happen.


Depends on whether or not he got his lifetime before the grandfather date (somewhere around January 2000). He mentioned he's got a 6 year old Series 1 with lifetime, which would put it close to the grandfather date. I've got a series 1 from late '99 that has lifetime service and I'm planning on grandfathering it to a S3 when they become available.


----------



## jfh3

bap said:


> Depends on whether or not he got his lifetime before the grandfather date (somewhere around January 2000).


No, it doesn't. He was talking about a new "transfer lifetime offer". Not going to happen.

Tivo will honor the existing ways to put lifetime on a Series 3:

- By transfer from an eligible Series 1
- By using a Tivo Lifetime Service Gift card (no longer available at retail or from Tivo)

But Tivo will not offer a new way to put lifetime on a Series 3, including any other type of service transfer.

Period.


----------



## jacksonian

stevel said:


> I think *you* want to read up a little more on HDMI.
> 
> Yes, HDMI can provide copy protection, but it is a high-bandwidth digital video (and audio) signal connection, whereas component is analog video only. For sources that are digital in nature - DVDs and digital TV - and when using digital displays (most plasma, LCD and LCoS displays) - HDMI eliminates conversion to analog and then back to digital again.
> 
> Theoretically, HDMI should provide a better picture. What you and others have observed is that some components don't do HDMI right, and these might indeed show a better display with component. There are also compatibility issues, though these are rarer now than they were a year ago.
> 
> HDMI is also a single cable rather than three, which can be easier to run. And, of course, it supports copy protection, for good or for bad. (Component has the potential of not letting you see content in HD if the content provider wants to close "the analog hole".)


You said it yourself, THEORETICALLY it should provide a better picture. But in most cases so far, it hasn't. I've followed HDMI since its inception and tried blinded A/B tests with all of my equipment including sending several displays and players back.

Everything you said proves my point. Thank you. HDMI is and has always been a way to control piracy. It wasn't a gift from the industry to give us a better picture.


----------



## Bierboy

Mako said:


> ...I still have my hacked Series 1 and use the crap out of it. I bought it about 6 years ago for about 600 bucks. I think I got my money's worth out of it, especially since I have a lifetime subscription to go with it.


Looks to me that he's got a lifetime with his S1.


Mako said:


> Since I have a lifetime membership (man was that a good buy), I will happily addopt the S3 if I can transfer my lifetime membership. Otherwise, I will probably wait until the price comes down. My SA8300HD is no TiVo but it works and is free. (I am a Comcast employee so its free for me)


And I don't see where he's talking about any kind of new "transfer lifetime offer."


----------



## cwoody222

Mako said:


> You are incorrect. They have not failed every time. They have finally secured partnerships with major cable operators (MSOs) to bring the TiVo to the cable subscribers. Whether that takes the form of boxes and software or just software remains to be seen.
> 
> It is obvious you have had some problems with TiVo. I am sorry to hear that. But it sounds like it might be clouding your objectivity.


Yes, their cable system deals are great deals for them.

I meant more in terms of failure of selling advertising on the box (they've had various attempts at this... TiVoLution Magazine, Product Watch, selling the TiVo icons in ads, etc). None have really 'taken off'. HMO was another example.


----------



## Mako

blipszyc said:


> For me $799 is too much. For others, perhaps not. But what I want to know is why does it have to be $799. Why did they go with such a large hard drive out of the gate. Why not go back to their original business model of varying hour units. Sell a 14 hour unit for $399 that uses a small hard drive and a 60 hour unit for $799 that houses a larger drive. Better yet, they could only sell the smaller unit for $399 and offer huge TiVo branded hard drives, guaranteed to work, for $400. (Like the Xbox360 models - Core/Premium) This way they could compete with CableCo's that can subsidize their boxes, but at the same time appeal to those who want the extra recording time.
> 
> My wife and I were really psyched to hear that a non Sat HD Tivo was on its way, but it looks like we'll be putting up with the Adelphia DVR for another season.


I hear you. I am guessing it is because the hard drives are not really the limiting price factor they used to be. The price difference (especially for an OEM) is negligable. I doubt they would really be able to sell for much different unless they offered models in the 700, 800, 900 dollar range. This would effectivly mean that they would make MORE money on the higher dollar ones since the price difference between each drive is so small.


----------



## bap

jfh3 said:


> But Tivo will not offer a new way to put lifetime on a Series 3, including any other type of service transfer.
> 
> Period.


You know, it absolutely amazes me how many people here seem to know official TiVo policy for a product that they haven't even released yet. Never say Never. Period.


----------



## 1283

bap said:


> You know, it absolutely amazes me how many people here seem to know official TiVo policy for a product that they haven't even released yet. Never say Never. Period.


TiVo has officially discontinued new lifetime service for all practical purposes. That's as official as it will get.


----------



## Mako

ZeoTiVo said:


> They did look the other way because it was the only way to get a larger drive or some added features.
> 
> now with the S3 you can add an eSATA external drive and also some of the features are there now in some form on the TiVo. I think they will have made it much harder to do anthing inside the TiVo - if for no other reason then they have a smoother update path since all boxes will be the same.
> 
> I think HD does change everything though, content providers are not so worried about SD but HD they want locked up.


My Series 1 is hacked to the gills and I have no trouble getting updates. You don't have to be exactly the same to be able to get updates. The system is built on Linux so it has a very flexible environment. Not like it would crash if it saw 1MB of extra space.

I cannot speak for the series 3 but I am 'guessing' that it will be based on the same technology since it is a proven system.


----------



## jfh3

bap said:


> You know, it absolutely amazes me how many people here seem to know official TiVo policy for a product that they haven't even released yet. Never say Never. Period.


Yeah, I guess all the Tivo employees that posted official policy here concerning lifetime service when they stopped offering it for purchase on all products other than the Humax DVD box could have been wrong. 

I don't explicitly remember "We will not offer customers the chance to transfer existing lifetime service from units that otherwise wouldn't eligible", but I took "Lifetime is not profitable" and "Lifetime gift subscriptions will no longer be sold" as a pretty big hint that "Never" was pretty safe.

So maybe "Never" was a bit harsh.

How about - if they don't, you buy me a Series 3? And if they do, I'll buy you one?


----------



## Mako

ah30k said:


> Yes, but only if your lifetime was purchased prior to Jan xx of 2000 (someone can confirm this date).


Hmm if that is the case, my lifetime should be transferable.


----------



## stevel

jacksonian said:


> You said it yourself, THEORETICALLY it should provide a better picture. But in most cases so far, it hasn't. I've followed HDMI since its inception and tried blinded A/B tests with all of my equipment including sending several displays and players back.


In most cases, it does, based on my own observations and what I read of reviews in trusted magazines.


----------



## bap

c3 said:


> TiVo has officially discontinued new lifetime service for all practical purposes. That's as official as it will get.


But they still allow the onetime grandfathering of lifetime on S1's purchased prior to January, 2000. And who here can say with authority that they won't allow some sort of upgrade of other existing lifetime services in some way or other? Granted it's not likely, but whose to say they won't do something like "be one of the first 100 to buy an S3 and transfer your existing lifetime to it for free" or some other type or promotion? The point I'm trying to make is that lots of people here can make all sorts of claims, predictions, etc. but until we hear the official word from TiVo, Inc. themselves then it's all just a lot of useless speculation.


----------



## greg_burns

Mako said:


> Buy your HDMI cables on ebay. Probably 20-50 bucks (for the length I am assuming you need) =)


How do those prices (with the lengths you are assuming) compare to MonoPrice's?
http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&style=

They seem to have great prices w/o the hassel of ebay. I bought my last DVI->HDMI Monster cable on ebay and "thought" I got a good deal (compared to BestBuy I suppose I did  ). Now I'm looking again (HDMI->HDMI) in prep for the S3. <sigh>


----------



## greg_burns

bap said:


> but until we hear the official word from TiVo, Inc. themselves then it's all just a lot of useless speculation.


Useless? How about insightful?


----------



## Mako

seattlewendell said:


> Yes, you are correct I DON"T KNOW. and neither does Adam which was my original point. He said no way way Comcast would do this and no way Comcast would do that blah, blah blah. I said hold on. You don't work for Comcast and you don't have a crystal ball. You don't know what the company is going to do. He responded with some nonsensical answer about existing customers no being able top get large boxes etc. etc. Comcast has about 10 million customers. I posted the link to show that Comcast jut bought enough boxes to give 10% of their customers DVR's with large HD's. That percentage goes up if you factor in that not all their customers have DVR's. My point in posting the link is that we don't know what Comcast is going to do. 1.5 million new boxes seems just about right if they were planning a rollout of better boxes. I am posting information so people can draw their own conclusions. I just have a problem people make absolute statements. No way XYZ. No way? How do you know?
> 
> Also about the SA and Moto boxes. About 1 year ago during their earnings call Comcast said that they use boxes from various sources so that their supply chain is no tied to one company. Also to keep getting the best prices on their boxes they feel it's best to have competition rather than give all their business to one company. Whether or not this make sense doesn't matter. The point is that this is their philosophy. Since they are now in bed with Tivo don't you think they have Tivo working on software for both boxes? Just a thought.


Amen Brother.

I agree with you on so many points (and I am a Comcast employee). Nobody has a crystal ball, and even if a company states "We are doing 'x' next year!" This does not necessarilly mean x will happen next year, ever or if they will not do y or z and when. =)

Only time will tell for sure. =)


----------



## Mako

kdmorse said:


> _They may port to Scientific Atlanta boxes too if the cable MSOs want it, but right now they haven't asked for that._
> 
> While I could certainly be wrong, I suspect SA's answer to that would "over our dead bodies". Their new owners (Cisco) have specifically expressed the desire to invade the STB arena full force, by developing their own integrated platform which will do everything Tivo does, and much more.
> 
> Whether they ever get there, meh - dunno. Nothing I've seen from them so far in the STB arena impresses me, but they could be a real player a few years down the road. I would consider it a fairly safe bet that, given their current goals, they're not going to let Tivo software on their boxes.
> 
> But then again, I've been known to loose safe bets all the time.. Only time will tell...
> 
> -Ken


Oh please don't let Cisco develop software. =( We have bought some HUGE pieces of software from them and they are pure crap. Stick to routers.


----------



## classicX

HiDefGator said:


> Let me get this right. You believe that there are tens of thousands of people out there that have no Tivo today, have never had a Tivo, and are waiting for the S3 before buying their first Tivo DVR? These are the same people that aren't buying the DT today even though it is almost free?


That's me, so yes.

Except I had a DirecTivo a few years back. I won't be buying a new Tivo until the S3. So there! nananananana!


----------



## Mako

megazone said:


> Why do people keep stating the obvious?
> 
> They're not going to sell a lot of Series3 boxes at $800. EVERYONE knows that, TiVo included. But they will sell SOME to early adopters, aka gadget freaks and suckers - like myself.
> 
> Then the price will come down a notch, and they'll sell more.
> 
> Then the price will come down another notch, and they'll sell even more.
> 
> That's how it is with pretty much ever new device that comes out. There is more than just manufacturing costs at play too - there is R&D investment. They'll make a higher return per box at first, then drop that over time. And as manufacturing ramps up, costs come down.
> 
> If people think it is too expensive - just don't buy it. Wait. It will cost less in the future.


I think a lot of people are just angry they cannot afford to be early adopters. Especially those that have been waiting for a long time. The item is finally within grasp and yet is still just outside thier reach.

If I was not trying to buy a house at the moment, I would probably be getting it on day one too. As it stands, I don't think I will get one unless I can transfer my lifetime subscription.


----------



## Mako

ah30k said:


> The problem is that the 'connection to the host' has to be sata. There are plenty of raid controllers that use sata drives, but the host connection is usually pci or ethernet. I did some preliminary hunting and couldn't find a raid controller that connects to the host via sata. Might be a good opportunity for a company.


There are SATA external RAID enclosures. Some more expensive and with more features than others. If you don't need the parity drive for fault tolerance (and really... I don't HAVE to make sure my episode of Law and Order is not lost) you can get a pretty reasonable one.

Thecus Brings SATA to External Storage


----------



## SCSIRAID

bap said:


> You know, it absolutely amazes me how many people here seem to know official TiVo policy for a product that they haven't even released yet. Never say Never. Period.


This brings a question to mind.... Somewhat off topic... but....

What happens if a Tivo S2 with lifetime fails? Do I have the ability to transfer the lifetime service to another S2?


----------



## Gregor

SCSIRAID said:


> This brings a question to mind.... Somewhat off topic... but....
> 
> What happens if a Tivo S2 with lifetime fails? Do I have the ability to transfer the lifetime service to another S2?


If Tivo repairs it, they will transfer the service to another unit.


----------



## Mako

c3 said:


> I went to Staples today with Fry's ad. The manager would not pricematch a drive because the ad said "DMA" while the drive said "ATA". I just left because I didn't know how to argue with ignorance.


Yeah you cannot argue with that. =)

How do you teach someone some computer history and terminology just so you can save a few bucks?


----------



## mtchamp

They might bundle a movie download service with the TiVo service with purchase of a Series3 and make the monthly fee easier to justify. I can get the MSD already, but I'm not going to jump in and buy at $799 because I don't have HDTV yet and expect the price to drop and the deals to get interesting. Comcast could lease a Series3?


----------



## Mako

Troy J B said:


> imo, more of an educated guess. Based on TiVo's current product offerings and the placement of the Series3 in their line-up.


Fair enough =)


----------



## Mako

bap said:


> Depends on whether or not he got his lifetime before the grandfather date (somewhere around January 2000). He mentioned he's got a 6 year old Series 1 with lifetime, which would put it close to the grandfather date. I've got a series 1 from late '99 that has lifetime service and I'm planning on grandfathering it to a S3 when they become available.


Turns out I bought about 8 months to late =(

Wouldn't you know it.

I love TiVo but I will certainly wait now. Hopefully the TiVo that Comcast offers will be tollerable until I can justify the cost of a S3 and the 6.95 monthly subscription.


----------



## Mako

c3 said:


> TiVo has officially discontinued new lifetime service for all practical purposes. That's as official as it will get.


I don't care if the President, CEO, CFO, and every employee of the company has said that it will never, ever, in a million years allow any new transfer of a lifetime subscription... ever ever again!!!

Just because they said it today, does not mean they will not change thier mind.

All it takes is bad sales or other circumstances for them to try a new way to get people to use hardware or thier services - and wham! All of the sudden, they are doing what they said they would never ever do. =)

It happens ALL the time in business and marketing. Especially when they want to sell new units.

"We will never do this so buy them now anyway". Then the initials have sold and they are trailing off... "OK we changed our minds now... we will allow it for a limited time".

Hell George Lucas is the master at this tactic. =)


----------



## Mako

greg_burns said:


> How do those prices (with the lengths you are assuming) compare to MonoPrice's?
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&style=
> 
> They seem to have great prices w/o the hassel of ebay. I bought my last DVI->HDMI Monster cable on ebay and "thought" I got a good deal (compared to BestBuy I suppose I did  ). Now I'm looking again (HDMI->HDMI) in prep for the S3. <sigh>


Well do some searches and see for yourself. If the price is negligable, I go with a company I think I can trust. If the prices are worth the minor risk, I go with the cheaper price. There is no magic to HDMI cables. They should not cost hundreds of dollars.


----------



## m_jonis

eric_mcgovern said:


> Legally, they have to broadcast the HD Locals in the clear. They aren't being nice or anything, they just have to do it.


I'm not sure about that. Here's what a rep on the AVS forums (the South Carolina HDTV group) said:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=99727&page=228&pp=30

"OK - here's the thing on QAM tuners and cable.

If you have a QAM tuner in your HDTV and you subscribe to the BST (Broadcast Service Tier) from a cable provider and that cable provider has the HD Broadcast signals in the clear, then technically the smart consumer should be able to scan and find the HD Broadcast signal.

Here are the points to remember about TWCSC:

1. There is no government rule or regulation that we put the HD Broadcast signals in the clear. We could scramble them and associate them to the HD converter or HD DVR via a service code. Not a rate code, but a service code.
2. If you are viewing HD Broadcast signals via this manner on TWCSC, please realize we are not supporting the HD Broadcast viewing. You are paying for 2-13 analog and that is what we are supporting. There is no promise you will get all HD Broadcast signals and there is no promise that if you get them that way today, you will always receive them via this method.
3. TWC engineering can (and does) move the QAMs for technical benefits within the headend. They don't tell me, we don't notify consumers. So if you are depending on viewing in this manner and tune into the season finale of 24 or some such and the signal has been moved from the QAM... then that's the risk you are taking by depending on your HD Broadcast channels in this manner.
4. TWC may in the future scramble the HD Broadcast signals - I'm not saying we will, I'm just saying right now - today - this second, its easier from a technical standpoint to have these channels in the clear but there could conceivably be some reason to change this procedure.

Now - I'm not saying that this is going to change any time soon or ever for that matter. I'm just stating the current situation.

I also do not plan to get into any sort of theoretical debate about what may or may not ever happen."


----------



## ah30k

Mako said:


> You say that, but they have already offered to transfer for a Series 2 upgrade. So unless you have a crystal ball, you are just making a WAG (wild-ass-guess). =)


Those days are long gone man, forget about it. Ain't gonna happen, especially since they have discontinued the lifetime service option as a loss. Why in the world would they allow someone to re-up lifetime. This POV is way more than a WAG.


----------



## jfh3

bap said:


> But they still allow the onetime grandfathering of lifetime on S1's purchased prior to January, 2000.


Pretty much only because before then "lifetime" wasn't clearly stated to mean "lifetime of the box" and many assumed it meant for the lifetime of the subscriber.



> And who here can say with authority that they won't allow some sort of upgrade of other existing lifetime services in some way or other?


TivoPony.



> Granted it's not likely, but whose to say they won't do something like "be one of the first 100 to buy an S3 and transfer your existing lifetime to it for free" or some other type or promotion?


I don't doubt that there will be another promotion where you could win a Series 3 with lifetime, but why would they want to do something like you suggest?



> The point I'm trying to make is that lots of people here can make all sorts of claims, predictions, etc. but until we hear the official word from TiVo, Inc. themselves then it's all just a lot of useless speculation.


Or pointless hope from people that think Tivo will let a large number of people transfer lifetime subscriptions to new boxes when they haven't allowed that for over 6 years.


----------



## Gregor

Tivo offered to let S1 folks transfer lifetime to new S2 boxes for a short period of time when the S2 launched.

I really doubt they will do this again.


----------



## jfh3

m_jonis said:


> 1. There is no government rule or regulation that we put the HD Broadcast signals in the clear. We could scramble them and associate them to the HD converter or HD DVR via a service code. Not a rate code, but a service code.


The rep is mistaken. Even if the FCC doesn't specifically require that HD broadcast that originate OTA be carried in the clear (and I think they do), the local franchise authority (e.g. your city) can require it.


----------



## paranoid

Interestingly enough there is some Apple announcement scheduled for the same day - September 12th. Lots of the usual internet rumor/hype about some kind of video product perhaps to tie in with iTunes.

Hey, that's only a week away! time flies..


----------



## drew2k

jfh3 said:


> The rep is mistaken. Even if the FCC doesn't specifically require that HD broadcast that originate OTA be carried in the clear (and I think they do), the local franchise authority (e.g. your city) can require it.


I thought the ruling was that the MSO must only supply a "digital" in-the-clear version of the local network channel? Would that mean they DON'T have to supply an HD channel in the clear?

I ask because I was going to try the S3 without a cable card at first, as I get MANY HD QAM channels right now in the clear on my LG HD TV. If Cablevision can take those HD QAM channels away whenever they want, I'd have to upgrade my Cable package and get the cable cards ...


----------



## m_jonis

jfh3 said:


> The rep is mistaken. Even if the FCC doesn't specifically require that HD broadcast that originate OTA be carried in the clear (and I think they do), the local franchise authority (e.g. your city) can require it.


In regards to the first part, I'm pretty sure the FCC ruling/law/whatever only says they have to carry the DIGITAL channel in the clear. Not the HD one (unless the HD one is the only digital, but most places broadcast both).

In regards to the second part, there's a big difference between requiring someone to do something and having the ability to make them do something. Just because your local city has the ability to pass a law that says you have to dress up your dog in doll clothes doesn't mean that they actually require it.


----------



## jfh3

Yes, digital. Not necessarily HD. But for OTA big four stations, those are usually one and the same.


----------



## JPinAZ

greg_burns said:


> How do those prices (with the lengths you are assuming) compare to MonoPrice's?
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&style=
> 
> They seem to have great prices w/o the hassel of ebay. I bought my last DVI->HDMI Monster cable on ebay and "thought" I got a good deal (compared to BestBuy I suppose I did  ). Now I'm looking again (HDMI->HDMI) in prep for the S3. <sigh>


Buy them from Monoprice off of Ebay. If you're buying more than a couple cables you can save a few dollars on shipping.


----------



## Budget_HT

m_jonis said:


> In regards to the first part, I'm pretty sure the FCC ruling/law/whatever only says they have to carry the DIGITAL channel in the clear. Not the HD one (unless the HD one is the only digital, but most places broadcast both). ...


How do you know that "most places broadcast both?"

Where I live NO station broadcasts both. Those that have HD and SD channels carry different programming (e.g., not the mainstream, "same as analog" programming) on their SD digital subchannels.

Is the rest of the country different from the Seattle/Portland areas?


----------



## aaronwt

No. We only have the HD broadcast here. The SD version isn't broadcast Any sub channels show weather, radar, or some other programming.


----------



## tunnelengineer

jfh3 said:


> Pretty much only because before then "lifetime" wasn't clearly stated to mean "lifetime of the box" and many assumed it meant for the lifetime of the subscriber.
> 
> TivoPony.
> 
> I don't doubt that there will be another promotion where you could win a Series 3 with lifetime, but why would they want to do something like you suggest?
> 
> Or pointless hope from people that think Tivo will let a large number of people transfer lifetime subscriptions to new boxes when they haven't allowed that for over 6 years.


Wow, once again everything you say is speculation. You have absolutely no idea what Tivo will do when the S3 launches. There may be a short term transfer option for those that want ot throw down cash on day one. You just never know. And if you do know by some chance, please tell me who will win the super bowl this year so I can put a lot of money down in Vegas.

Sure, the odds are against transferring the lifetime sub, but there is always a chance. Personally I will hope for that small chance, no matter how miniscule.

Also, elimintaing the lifetime sub option was the dumbest thing Tivo ever did. They will lose many more tivo users because of this (thus losing a ton of money) than they would have lost in money off the lifetime subs.


----------



## TexasAg

tunnelengineer said:


> Sure, the odds are against transferring the lifetime sub, but there is always a chance. Personally I will hope for that small chance, no matter how miniscule.


Hey, feel free to put your hopes in what you admit is a miniscule chance of something happening. Most folks here realize that Tivo probably won't do this and have accepted it. Some of us aren't happy about it, but given the choice between no Tivo and no lifetime, I'll pick no lifetime.



tunnelengineer said:


> Also, elimintaing the lifetime sub option was the dumbest thing Tivo ever did. They will lose many more tivo users because of this (thus losing a ton of money) than they would have lost in money off the lifetime subs.


Talk about speculation (you know, the thing you were just criticizing others for)


----------



## danieljanderson

tunnelengineer said:


> Also, elimintaing the lifetime sub option was the dumbest thing Tivo ever did. They will lose many more tivo users because of this (thus losing a ton of money) than they would have lost in money off the lifetime subs.


Isn't this speculation?

I'm just asking......... 

edit/
(10 seconds late)


----------



## lessd

Also said:


> If you agree TiVo lost money of of lifetime then how dumb could they be stopping lifetime.....you can't run a CO if your not making money so something had to change. TiVo is going to try this new plan out, if nothing they try will work to make money for them I guess when they run out of money they will go out of business. Under your assumption instead of dropping lifetime they should have drop the price back to $150..boy would they have gotten a lot more sales to have lost more money on. If anybody has another plan that would make TiVo more money and keep all customers happy let TiVo (or us) know.
> 
> PS I loved TiVos lifetime service and I want the cable co the give me the option of lifetime cable service, and how about my cell phone CO giving me lifetime on my current plan, I might even increase the minutes.


----------



## Bierboy

aaronwt said:


> No. We only have the HD broadcast here. The SD version isn't broadcast Any sub channels show weather, radar, or some other programming.


Yep....same in our market (95 DMA).


----------



## tunnelengineer

TexasAg said:


> Hey, feel free to put your hopes in what you admit is a miniscule chance of something happening. Most folks here realize that Tivo probably won't do this and have accepted it. Some of us aren't happy about it, but given the choice between no Tivo and no lifetime, I'll pick no lifetime.
> 
> Talk about speculation (you know, the thing you were just criticizing others for)


Yes, I wholeheartedly admit this is speculation. The lifetime option is the reason I bought 3 tivos to date and paid upfront for lifetime on all of them. Now series 3 comes out and I am not sure I will get it strictly due to the lack of a lifetime sub option. I really don't see how Tivo loses money on a lifetime sub either. My phone call once a day doesn't cost much to them..........

It's more like they make more money on the monthly subs and screw the consumer more. They both take the same resources for tivo, I think the consumer that pays up front for a lifetime fee should be rewarded by getting a cheaper service over the long run.

The way I see it is the lifetime sub option was a big advantage that tivo had over the cable company boxes. As the cable boxes become better, the reason to stay with Tivo gradually slips away.

Even if the lifetime was expensive (read $399), at least make it an option for those that hate the monthly bills.

Personally I will just go for the reduced monthly rate due to my existing boxes, but I hate when options are taken away from consumers.


----------



## ah30k

tunnelengineer said:


> I really don't see how Tivo loses money on a lifetime sub either. My phone call once a day doesn't cost much to them..........


TiVo's operating cost per subscriber includes more that just your phone call costs. One example is the Tribune license to provide copyrighted guide data to your box. I'm not sure of the exact cost, but I speculate that it is on the order of a dollar or two.

The second item is the very business model that TiVo uses. They collect service fees to pay their operating expenses and offset hardware subsidies. They plan out how much they need in service fees to make a profitable operation and eventually deliver on the return to investors. By their analysis, the lifetime was not providing enough operating profit for them to continue operations. Offering it for a higher price was not, in their best marketing judgement, a good move. You could argue that it would be good for you, but they evaluated it and decided it was not good for TiVo.


----------



## tunnelengineer

good answer.

I am really worried about some of the decisions being made by tivo though. How long can they expect to charge a premium price for a service that many of the cable companies are offering themselves (and improving every month)? 

It seems Tivo isn't considering the consumer very much in their decisions anymore, just their bottom line. It's not a good business model. It will be tough to stay in business with no customers...


----------



## bap

tunnelengineer said:


> How long can they expect to charge a premium price for a service that many of the cable companies are offering themselves (and improving every month)?


I certianly don't consider Comcast as "improving every month". Granted I don't have one of their DVR's since I already have a TiVo, but on the TV where I do have an STB I haven't seen any changes in that UI in probably a year. The TiVo interface is significantly better than the one Comcast provides.



> It seems Tivo isn't considering the consumer very much in their decisions anymore, just their bottom line. It's not a good business model. It will be tough to stay in business with no customers...


It's also tough for them to stay in business with no revenue stream. As others have pointed out the cost of supporting TiVo users isn't $0. Between infrastructure, licensing, and other costs they need a steady revenue stream. Because of that lifetime service doesn't make sense financially.

I also think that they are considering their potential customers in the design of the S3. One feature that I think makes a lot of sense and will be used by a fair amount of users is the ability to receive OTA broadcasts. Where I am there are differences between what some stations are broadcasting OTA and what Comcast is providing. Comcast is just providing each network in SD & HD, but if I tune in OTA then I sometimes see subchannels that I've never seen on Comcast. I may very well set up my S3 with one cable and one OTA tuner specifically so that I can get those subchannels that Comcast doesn't offer.


----------



## cwoody222

In my market, only the FOX affiliate broadcasts their SD station along with the HD one digitally. Presumably they do it because they don't upconvert their HD feed so non-HD stuff looks like total crap so they give us the SD feed so we can 'stretch' it.

Ironically, it's the only local that our local cable company (TWC, previously Adelphia) does not carry in HD (it's a Sinclair station who is trying to get cable co's to pay them for HD feeds) at all so it's not required to be unencrypted QAM either, obviously.


----------



## dbtom

eric_mcgovern said:


> It is akin to scrambling the networks on analog cable, simple isn't going to happen because the FCC won't allow for it.


Analog cable had been scrambled in some areas of NYC for a long time. You don't get anything without a box.

I posted a bunch in another thread. TerryFoster was able to find an FCC link that basically said that the cable companies don't need to send QAM clear but they do need to offer a broadcast basic package. I get random channels QAM clear where I am and certainly not all broadcast locals.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4308637&highlight=dbtom#post4308637

Bottom Line
Until someone shows me proof otherwise, I believe there is NO legal obligations for cable companies to send digital locals QAM clear. They must offer broadcast basic service, but this could still require a box. So I would strongly advise not making any purchasing decisions based on the assumption that cable companies will be transmitting clear QAM.


----------



## HDTiVo

lessd said:


> If you agree TiVo lost money of of lifetime then how dumb could they be stopping lifetime.....you can't run a CO if your not making money so something had to change. TiVo is going to try this new plan out, if nothing they try will work to make money for them I guess when they run out of money they will go out of business. Under your assumption instead of dropping lifetime they should have drop the price back to $150..boy would they have gotten a lot more sales to have lost more money on. If anybody has another plan that would make TiVo more money and keep all customers happy let TiVo (or us) know.
> 
> PS I loved TiVos lifetime service and I want the cable co the give me the option of lifetime cable service, and how about my cell phone CO giving me lifetime on my current plan, I might even increase the minutes.


Precisely the kind of thinking that has lost over $650M and achieved less than 15% of the potential for SA Subs.

And I know TiVo did not lose money on lifetime.

Tunnel: Don't let people that don't know much about the subject change your mind.


----------



## HDTiVo

One thing TiVo could do if it wanted to goose early sales is to not give the rebate on a Lifetime transfer (I assume on Grandfather that is the case anyway).

Very unlikely to happen and would represent a major reversal in policy - not that there's anything wrong with that  .


----------



## ah30k

HDTiVo said:


> And I know TiVo did not lose money on lifetime.


How do you know this? I am open minded enough to consider all evidence. Please help me get my thinking straight! I hate to go around spreading falsehoods that they lost money on it.


----------



## terryfoster

ah30k said:


> HDTiVo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I know TiVo did not lose money on lifetime.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know this? I am open minded enough to consider all evidence. Please help me get my thinking straight! I hate to go around spreading falsehoods that they lost money on it.
Click to expand...

Yes, please share how my $100 lifetime service purchased in 1999 wasn't a losing proposition for TiVo.


----------



## TriBruin

HDTiVo said:


> Precisely the kind of thinking that has lost over $650M and achieved less than 15% of the potential for SA Subs.
> 
> And I know TiVo did not lose money on lifetime.


I am curious how you have some special insight that the rest of us don't? Tivo has flat out said that Lifetime was a money loser for Tivo. They amoritized the cost of lifetime over 4(?) years. With many units running longer than that, they are recognizing ZERO revenue, but absorbing the cost to continue to support these units.

Please show the math.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> One thing TiVo could do if it wanted to goose early sales is to not give the rebate on a Lifetime transfer (I assume on Grandfather that is the case anyway).
> 
> Very unlikely to happen and would represent a major reversal in policy - not that there's anything wrong with that  .


 it would give them heartburn and not directly up the total subscription numbers but - it would drop off some older legacy hardware or else some would go monthly. That is a benefit they can factor in.

I have a 240 lifetimed and do not plan to buy an S3 right away but if that offer was put out there I would spend more than a little time mulling it over. If I had a series 1 lifetimed I would not hesitate at the chance to update it.

PS - you need numbers and sec filings to be able to state that Lifetime did not cost TiVo money overall. perhaps a complete look at the data would show a net gain. It should be borne in mind that The lower Lifetime cost on series 1 came with a higher hardware cost to start with.
maybe the correct phrasing would be - Low hardware costs along with 299$ lifetime cost TiVo money over the useful life


----------



## cwoody222

terryfoster said:


> Yes, please share how my $100 lifetime service purchased in 1999 wasn't a losing proposition for TiVo.


I agree with your statement's point. However - was Lifetime ever only $100? I thought it started out at $199. (which is what mine cost... which I then moved to a Series2 during that offer and recently just moved to another Series2 that they replaced for me)


----------



## HDTiVo

Actually a more practical idea (but still unlikely) is to exchange an S2 and no rebate for Lifetime on S3... that way TiVo could put a refurbed S2 back into service.

---

You should go through my posts on the calculations from back around the time it happend (around March/April) to get an understanding.

Zeo: Since I did use actual numbers, it is the people that state Lifetime lost TiVo money that should use the numbers and show their calculations.

As for the specific case, I cannot answer for a particular deal 7 years ago, but TiVo cancelled Lifetime on future S2 sales, and that is really the relevent issue.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> You should go through my posts on the calculations from back around the time it happend (around March/April) to get an understanding.
> 
> Zeo: Since I did use actual numbers, it is the people that state Lifetime lost TiVo money that should use the numbers and show their calculations.


 Ok I missed/do not remember the posts on lifetime costs you made. So I retract that. I still think the opposite though - that high hardware cost in early days of S1 may have made lifetime more proitable than now when you could get a S2 for nothing and then just 299$ as the only money ever for a unit that could be in use 10 years from now.


----------



## ah30k

HDTiVo said:


> You should go through my posts on the calculations from back around the time it happend (around March/April) to get an understanding.
> 
> Zeo: Since I did use actual numbers, it is the people that state Lifetime lost TiVo money that should use the numbers and show their calculations.


What a cop-out. I am not going to go back through archives to learn how you came to this conclusion. Could you at least give us a hint at how you calculated a loss?

The onus is on you to back up you claim that TiVo is lying to us.


----------



## terryfoster

cwoody222 said:


> I agree with your statement's point. However - was Lifetime ever only $100? I thought it started out at $199.


I received an unexpected $100 rebate from TiVo for my $199 lifetime service purchase.


----------



## cwoody222

ah30k said:


> What a cop-out. I am not going to go back through archives to learn how you came to this conclusion. Could you at least give us a hint at how you calculated a loss?
> 
> The onus is on you to back up you claim that TiVo is lying to us.


Lying. And changing their business model to one that will result in a net loss to them vs. their previous plan.

I think it's safe to say that if TiVo stopped doing something it was because it didn't make financial sense.

That's why they ceased Lifetime Service.


----------



## terryfoster

HDTiVo said:


> You should go through my posts on the calculations from back around the time it happend (around March/April) to get an understanding.


Care to post a link to back up your claim?


----------



## cwoody222

He's probably talking about somewhere in this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290514


----------



## MickeS

Nope, he's talking about this: TiVo's old Pricing was Profitable


----------



## MickeS

Well I have no idea if the arguments are correct or not but "to take NPVs on single product lines and apply that proft to a whole company" makes sense since TiVO only had one product at the time.


----------



## ah30k

MickeS said:


> Well I have no idea if the arguments are correct or not but "to take NPVs on single product lines and apply that proft to a whole company" makes sense since TiVO only had one product at the time.


Then include all of their expenses, not just the $2.25 subscriber costs.

I deleted the post you are referring to because to haven't had time to go through and rebut his arguments thouroughly.


----------



## HDTiVo

terryfoster said:


> I received an unexpected $100 rebate from TiVo for my $199 lifetime service purchase.


Well for *YOU* who got an "*unexpected*" $100 rebate, I'd bet TiVo lost money in *YOUR * case. But I have no numbers to back that up.


----------



## HDTiVo

ah30k said:


> Then include all of their expenses, not just the $2.25 subscriber costs.
> 
> I deleted the post you are referring to because to haven't had time to go through and rebut his arguments thouroughly.


You have already lost the rebuttal.


----------



## HDTiVo

Which one of you deleted the post that claimed YOU had posted your detailed analysis back then?


----------



## Welshdog

I bet one original purpose of the Lifetime sub was to generate cash quickly for Tivo. They got a big chunk of cash from customers all at once not in monthly dribbles. It was also an incentive for those who do not like subscription payments (like me). Startups always need cash, but now (even though they still show a loss) as a more mature company the need is less urgent.

I wonder, did they offer Lifetime from day 1 or did it show up later?


----------



## ah30k

HDTiVo said:


> You have already lost the rebuttal.


There were so many holes in your financial analysis that it is taking me more time to write them all down than I thought. Plus, I actually have some work to do today. Claiming that I lost even before I posted my response to your financial analysis it the height of arrogance.

edit -----


HDTiVo said:


> TiVo's Financials
> I know TiVo's financials very well. TiVo makes money on subscribers at the old pricing levels, including the $299 Lifetime w/$69 for an 80hr box. Indeed on past earnings calls, when TiVo's all-in costs were higher, the Net Present Value of a subscriber was described as quite positive. So TiVo can't tell me, or the others in this Forum that TiVo needed one more dime per subscriber to make a profit.


Of course their NPVs were positive at the time. Otherwise they would have folded up tent and gone home! The assumptions built into their previous NPV calculations have changed making any past NPVs no longer applicable. The biggest change is the expected useful life. Whether the useful life change makes this swing negative depends on your assumptions regarding costs. I see your note next about what you think the costs are, Ill address those next.



HDTiVo said:


> TiVo's Profits per Subscriber
> On a twelve month basis, in FY05 it cost $2.99/mo to service a subscriber. That number FELL to $2.25/mo per sub in FY06. That's right, what it costs TiVo to provide service to a customer FELL $.74/mo this past year vs. last year. An 80hr with Lifetime for $368 up front cost maybe $160 for the box - TiVo's average cost of hardware sales per gross sub addition - plus $2.25/mo for service and falling. At a constant $2.25, TiVo still makes money up to 92+ months out on a subscriber/box. That doesn't count the fact TiVo had the $368 from day one and paid the $2.25/mo over 92 months.


Do they make enough to cover the other cost of operating the company? If you simply use the $2.25 cost of servicing a subscriber, who will pay for R&D? As an investor, I cannot simply invest in TiVo subscribers (Revenue minus $2.25 Service Costs -> returns positive NPV). Its a package deal, in order to invest in subscribers you also need to invest in this nice little turd (Zero revenue - gobs and gobs of R&D costs etc -> returns negative NPV). How does your positive NPV sound now?



HDTiVo said:


> TiVo's Break-even Subscriber Level for FY06
> In fact, TiVo made enough money per subscriber under the existing price regime, that if it had had an average of less than 450,000 more SA subs in FY06, the entire company would have broken even. And that includes monies spent on the patent litigation. TiVo's ARPU was $8.83/mo in FY06. Subtracting the $2.25/mo in service cost, the marginal profit per additional sub was $6.56/mo. Dividing this into a 12 month loss of $34.4M means with under 450,000 additional SA subs, The entire TiVo company is break-even. TiVo would have been break-even for FY06 if it had averaged 1.71M instead of 1.27M subs.


Oh, to be able to just wish for a half a million more customers on a base of 1.3 million. How do you arrive at the ARPU on a monthly basis? Once again, you are forgetting about all of the other costs not captured in the $2.25 servicing costs.



HDTiVo said:


> TiVo's problem is not its pricing, its problem is its number of subscribers is insufficient to pay for the whole company's costs.


WTF? Pricing and number of subscribers are related.


----------



## cwoody222

HDTiVo said:


> Which one of you deleted the post that claimed YOU had posted your detailed analysis back then?


If it's your contention that TiVo makes more money (or loses less money) under their old plan... what is their motivation for dropping Lifetime?

Or are they simply wrong for doing so? (ie: you think they're making less or losing more under their current plans)


----------



## cwoody222

Welshdog said:


> I wonder, did they offer Lifetime from day 1 or did it show up later?


It was offered from Day One.

Partly to compete with ReplayTV's model which basically bundled lifetime service with the price of their box in one flat rate.


----------



## jacksonian

I'm getting pretty tired of all the lifetime vs. monthly crap. It's not like anyone is going to care about our "analysis".

Is there any new info on release date?


----------



## MurrayJimW

WOW.

Just dropped in to check on the series 3 AVAILABILITY and see if there had been any new developments. I can see that around here there are few new developments but people love to talk about them for months and sometimes years.......

Any chance this thread will ever contain any series 3 news again?


----------



## JAB

<Vorlon> Yes. </Vorlon>

/jab


----------



## tunnelengineer

awesome.....

This thread is not off base at all........


----------



## MickeS

MurrayJimW said:


> WOW.
> 
> Just dropped in to check on the series 3 AVAILABILITY and see if there had been any new developments. I can see that around here there are few new developments but people love to talk about them for months and sometimes years.......
> 
> Any chance this thread will ever contain any series 3 news again?


NEVER!


----------



## HDTiVo

cwoody222 said:


> If it's your contention that TiVo makes more money (or loses less money) under their old plan... what is their motivation for dropping Lifetime?
> 
> Or are they simply wrong for doing so? (ie: you think they're making less or losing more under their current plans)


Yes, I think they do worse under the New Marketing Plan (NMP) than the old (OMP). I think the results that have come out so far are already showing that.

But more important is how much better TiVo could have done in designing and pricing NMP, leading to much greater results. TiVo is in the process of tweaking NMP in the right direction, but look at the enormous time span, and they still have quite a distance to go.


----------



## lessd

Wow !!
TiVo did make money on Lifetime when they used 4 years of support, and probably now that the support cost per sub is less could make money on 6 or 7 year lifetime costing; BUT how much do they make, as it been pointed out we are all talking incremedical profit before the rest of the ad-min cost. The airlines have the same type of problem as they make money on a seat that would sell for $10 (Adv cost about $7.50/seat in incremental cost). But if they sold all the seats for $10 they would out of business quick. If you apply G&A to the sub profit, they are not making money so they must increase the incremental profit/sub somehow. I am not saying their doing correctly now but I not running TiVo and do not have all the information the TiVo people have. If they are incorrect about how to run their business they will go out of business at some point. I just want to enjoy using their product as long as I can. (all of my TiVos are lifetime)


----------



## MickeS

jfh3 said:


> Yeah, I guess all the Tivo employees that posted official policy here concerning lifetime service when they stopped offering it for purchase on all products other than the Humax DVD box could have been wrong.
> 
> I don't explicitly remember "We will not offer customers the chance to transfer existing lifetime service from units that otherwise wouldn't eligible", but I took "Lifetime is not profitable" and "Lifetime gift subscriptions will no longer be sold" as a pretty big hint that "Never" was pretty safe.
> 
> So maybe "Never" was a bit harsh.
> 
> How about - if they don't, you buy me a Series 3? And if they do, I'll buy you one?


Hey bap, I hope you took jfh3 up on this offer!


----------



## HDTiVo

jacksonian said:


> I'm getting pretty tired of all the lifetime vs. monthly crap. It's not like anyone is going to care about our "analysis".
> 
> Is there any new info on release date?


Perhaps not, but there seems to be on Lifetime.


----------



## classicX

What's the subject of this thread again? I forget.


----------



## HDTiVo

classicX said:


> What's the subject of this thread again? I forget.


The MSRP of the S3. So talking about Lifetime, Rebates, or discounts at retailers should not be allowed.


----------



## tunnelengineer

Good job on that worthless speculation about never seeing a lifetime option for S3 units.

(walking away happy.........)


----------



## ah30k

tunnelengineer said:


> Good job on that worthless speculation about never seeing a lifetime option for S3 units.
> 
> (walking away happy.........)


You win. I would have put money on it never happening. FYI, any speculation that it 'would' happen was equally speculation.


----------



## jpwoof

What does MSRP mean?


----------



## ah30k

jpwoof said:


> What does MSRP mean?


manufacturer's suggested retail price


----------



## tunnelengineer

I don't think there was ever speculation that it would happen, just hoping. 

My over 5 yr old S1 tivo is happy to be retiring in another year or so. He can leave his legacy to the new S3. 

I think everyone is happy with the option though. You can take it or leave it as you wish. Just as long as it's before mid January. Fair deal Tivo. Now just please say the unit is less than $799.


----------



## classicX

ah30k said:


> manufacturer's suggested retail price


Which, in some cases, the manufacturer can "enforce" the MSRP (as in, force the retailer to sell it for that price and no less).

Automobilie manufacturers don't enforce it. Bose does (very strictly).

Does anyone know if Tivo enforces it strictly? I've never purchases a Tivo retail so I wouldn't know.


----------



## bkdtv

> Does anyone know if Tivo enforces it strictly?


They do not.


----------



## jfh3

MickeS said:


> Hey bap, I hope you took jfh3 up on this offer!


No, he didn't, but the offer is hereby withdrawn. 

I'm having some crow for lunch if the new rumor about a $199 transfer is true.

I don't understand why Tivo would want to do this or why it would be for LESS than lifetime was recently sold at ($299).

It should move more boxes though.

All I can think of is that there is some other marketing reason to move as many people to the Series 3 - like paid video downloads only available to Series 3 users.


----------



## bkdtv

> All I can think of is that there is some other marketing reason to move as many people to the Series 3 - like paid video downloads only available to Series 3 users.


They an do a lot more with Internet delivery using MPEG-4 and VC-1 than they can with MPEG-2. The Xbox360 already has 720p HDTV trailers for upcoming TV shows and movies available for download in MPEG-4/VC-1 format.

A 720p HDTV stream in AVC (MPEG-4) format takes 5-6Mbps, and DVD-quality streams require about half that. A high percentage of Series3 buyers are likely to have broadband Internet.


----------



## etsolow

jfh3 said:


> ...or why it would be for LESS than lifetime was recently sold at ($299).


Because it's a TRANSFER fee for a previously purchased lifetime?


----------



## AJRitz

I just did the math, and even at $800 with the S3 allowing me to dump my DirecTV subscription (I already subscribe to Time-Warner cable as well for HD content, as I'm too far away from local towers - and down in a valley - to get OTA HD locals) I'll come out ahead. The hardware pays for itself the first year, and the subscription costs will lag well behind the DirecTV programming costs. I think I'll wait until I finish up this year's NFL Sunday Ticket before purchasing, but I can't imagine I'll wait too much longer after that (and maybe less if I can work a Humax DVD Tivo + lifetime service + transfer lifetime to S3 monte).


----------



## MickeS

jfh3 said:


> All I can think of is that there is some other marketing reason to move as many people to the Series 3 - like paid video downloads only available to Series 3 users.


I'm sure that there are services planned for the S3 for which TiVo need as big a customer base as soon as possible in order to sell it to providers, and that's the reason they're doing this.


----------



## cwoody222

MickeS said:


> I'm sure that there are services planned for the S3 for which TiVo need as big a customer base as soon as possible in order to sell it to providers, and that's the reason they're doing this.


Any type of service like that (TiVo icons in commercials, video downloads) are all capable on the S2. Same with all the HME stuff.

Other than, obviously, the ability to record HD content and faster processors and the like (to handle those bigger video files) there's really nothing new that TiVo needs to sell content.

The differences (again, aside from HD) between the capabilities of the S1 vs the S2 were much greater than the differences between the S2 vs the S3.

EDIT: Plus, the S2 installed userbase is much larger than the S1 was so they'd be silly to pin their future on things that won't work on the S2.


----------



## greg_burns

cwoody222 said:


> Any type of service like that (TiVo icons in commercials, video downloads) are all capable on the S2. Same with all the HME stuff.


Not if they wanted the video downloads to be MPEG-4.


----------



## jfh3

etsolow said:


> Because it's a TRANSFER fee for a previously purchased lifetime?


Allegedly users will also get another year of service on the transfer-from box.

You really think people that people that would take the deal at $199 wouldn't take it at $299?

People have been saying they'd pay $299, $399, $499 for lifetime, which seems to be supported by eBay lifetime gift card sales ($450-$800).

$199 seems to be leaving a lot of money on the table for no reason.


----------



## jfh3

cwoody222 said:


> Plus, the S2 installed userbase is much larger than the S1 was so they'd be silly to pin their future on things that won't work on the S2.


Agreed, that's the risk.


----------



## bap

jfh3 said:


> People have been saying they'd pay $299, $399, $499 for lifetime, which seems to be supported by eBay lifetime gift card sales ($450-$800).


But the big difference is that this is $199 to transfer an existing lifetime. All those people who say they'd pay $499 for a lifetime want a new lifetime agreement, not a transfer of an existing one.


----------



## cwoody222

greg_burns said:


> Not if they wanted the video downloads to be MPEG-4.


Yea, but I don't think that matters to much to the advertisers.

You think CBS really cared about the video quality that much when signing their deal to distribute some of their new fall shows to TiVo users? Nah.


----------



## ChuckyBox

jfh3 said:


> You really think people that people that would take the deal at $199 wouldn't take it at $299?
> 
> People have been saying they'd pay $299, $399, $499 for lifetime, which seems to be supported by eBay lifetime gift card sales ($450-$800).
> 
> $199 seems to be leaving a lot of money on the table for no reason.


But at $299, it isn't really a transfer, it is just selling lifetime subscriptions again, which the don't want to do. And the logistics would be weird because it would only be available to some buyers, not others. Since one reason to do this is to placate current subs, offering a TRANSFER of service for a low, low, one-time-only price does the trick. Existing subs are happy, and new subs or monthly subs just shrug it off -- it doesn't apply to them.

TiVo will also make money on the S3 hardware, I imagine, so selling the box plus the transfer fee is going to be a nice return for them. This might also help them sell enough more units to get some economy of scale on the production.

I imagine monthly subs will get some kind of hardware discount offer in Q1.


----------



## ChuckyBox

cwoody222 said:


> You think CBS really cared about the video quality that much when signing their deal to distribute some of their new fall shows to TiVo users? Nah.


I think the point is that if you want to rent people movies via download, MPEG4 is faster and more economical than MPEG2 because the compression is better.


----------



## cwoody222

ChuckyBox said:


> I think the point is that if you want to rent people movies via download, MPEG4 is faster and more economical than MPEG2 because the compression is better.


Ah yes, that makes sense.

If a movie download service is imminent.

And whether they think a large enough group of people (in a short timeframe) will take advantage and move from a S2 to an S3 to make a real different. I doubt it.

I really think the S3 transfer option is really just a 'good will' thing for their loyalty customers. And for that :up:

With S2 they did have the incentive to move people to a box capable of HMO features and move them to broadband and there's probably some reason to get users to the S3 but I like to think it's mostly just as a gift to us.

(and trust me, I'm usually not at all optimistic... check out my Mac/TiVo posts!)


----------



## greg_burns

jfh3 said:


> Allegedly users will also get another year of service on the transfer-from box.
> 
> You really think people that people that would take the deal at $199 wouldn't take it at $299?
> 
> People have been saying they'd pay $299, $399, $499 for lifetime, which seems to be supported by eBay lifetime gift card sales ($450-$800).
> 
> $199 seems to be leaving a lot of money on the table for no reason.


And why give away another year of service on the transfer-from box? Who here wouldn't take this offer even w/o that added plus?


----------



## greg_burns

cwoody222 said:


> Yea, but I don't think that matters to much to the advertisers.
> 
> You think CBS really cared about the video quality that much when signing their deal to distribute some of their new fall shows to TiVo users? Nah.


Is there any quality difference between MPEG-2 vs MPEG-4? If anything, I would think MPEG-2 would be "better". I could be wrong though.


----------



## bkdtv

> Is there any quality difference between MPEG-2 vs MPEG-4? If anything, I would think MPEG-2 would be "better". I could be wrong though.


MPEG-4 does everything MPEG-2 does and much more. AVC (MPEG4 H.264) is one of the formats used by HD-DVD and Blu-ray. It delivers MPEG-2 HDTV quality in 30% to 50% less bandwidth, depending on the content.


----------



## btwyx

greg_burns said:


> Is there any quality difference between MPEG-2 vs MPEG-4? If anything, I would think MPEG-2 would be "better". I could be wrong though.


The theory is that MPEG-4 allows the same quality encoding as MPEG-2 at a lower bit rate, or conversly, higher quality encoding at the same bit rate.

In other words, MPEG-4 is supposed to be better.


----------



## classicX

cwoody222 said:


> I really think the S3 transfer option is really just a 'good will' thing for their loyalty customers. And for that :up:


I must applaud your positive view of Tivo in assuming they would do anything "for the customer" without any benefit to themselves.

However, I must also disagree with your assessment. They have a motivation for moving people to the S3, albeit unbeknownst to us.

a) They could be charging enough money on S3 to significantly offset the "cost" of allowing lifetime on that Tivo.
b) They could be hoping for a big S3 installed base in order to squeeze more advertising revenue.
c) They could be hoping that the majority of people with _working_ S1's and S2's wouldn't just use them for that last year and them mothball them - instead ending up paying again for a subscription or selling or giving the box away to someone who _will_ pay for it.

Or all of the above. I just cannot assume that Tivo, who "hates" lifetime enough to get rid of it, would suddenly offer this, and only for S3 units, not for say, single-tuner users wanted to move their lifetime to a DT unit.

It's <Vizzini>INCONCEIVABLE</Vizzini>.


----------



## tomaq

This morning in a bout of insomnia, I actually watched my tv while it was recording TiVo-supplied content. There was Shannon in a fancy dress talking about Series 3 with HD. Here is what she said

-25 hour capacity
-Can transfer existing lifetime subscription to S3 for $199 (added bonus is the TiVo you are transferring from is credited 1 year of subscription service so you can keep it running)
-Points us to tivo's website /vip to do the purchase and setup the transfer (last I checked, this URL didn't do anything

Couldn't find this content afterwards, but I'm sure it wasn't a dream...


----------



## zoma4

tomaq said:


> This morning in a bout of insomnia, I actually watched my tv while it was recording TiVo-supplied content. There was Shannon in a fancy dress talking about Series 3 with HD. Here is what she said
> 
> -25 hour capacity
> -Can transfer existing lifetime subscription to S3 for $199 (added bonus is the TiVo you are transferring from is credited 1 year of subscription service so you can keep it running)
> -Points us to tivo's website /vip to do the purchase and setup the transfer (last I checked, this URL didn't do anything
> 
> Couldn't find this content afterwards, but I'm sure it wasn't a dream...


Very good news if you ask me!


----------



## bap

classicX said:


> a) They could be charging enough money on S3 to significantly offset the "cost" of allowing lifetime on that Tivo.
> b) They could be hoping for a big S3 installed base in order to squeeze more advertising revenue.
> c) They could be hoping that the majority of people with _working_ S1's and S2's wouldn't just use them for that last year and them mothball them - instead ending up paying again for a subscription or selling or giving the box away to someone who _will_ pay for it.


Don't forget

d) They may have plans for new features in the S3 and want to get a critical mass out to the market before rolling them out.
e) The more S3's out "in the wild" the more free advertising they get, especially as HD continues to gain popularity.


----------



## MickeS

Well, whoopdee doo... I just had to spend almost as much as a Series 3 TiVo costs... on dental work.... blah... what a waste


----------



## 1283

MickeS said:


> what a waste


TiVo or your teeth?


----------



## ReikiBoy

MickeS said:


> Well, whoopdee doo... I just had to spend almost as much as a Series 3 TiVo costs... on dental work.... blah... what a waste


The dental work was a waste? How long do you expect your dental work to last? In the computer biz a particular product is expected to last 7 years. Development of newer models overlaps by about 4 years. Won't your dental work give you more years of satisfaction?


----------



## Bierboy

I'll watch my TiVo until my teeth rot!!


----------



## HDTiVo

MickeS said:


> Well, whoopdee doo... I just had to spend almost as much as a Series 3 TiVo costs... on dental work.... blah... what a waste


But you got Lifetime with that, no?


----------



## kdmorse

tomaq said:


> -Points us to tivo's website /vip to do the purchase and setup the transfer (last I checked, this URL didn't do anything


It does now, but it's just a redirect to -> http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr.asp

-Ken


----------



## 1283

Sunday is the beginning of a week for retail stores.


----------



## dr_mal

IneedCCs said:


> Has anyone considered the fact that the 17th is a Sunday? I'm no expert, but I find it unlikely that a new piece of gear would first become available on a Sunday


I waited outside a Best Buy all night until they opened on Sunday morning so I could snap up an XBox360. This wasn't right at launch, but they had it in their Sunday morning flyer, so they couldn't sell them until Sunday at opening.

Perfectly logical time to launch a new piece of gear.


----------



## greg_burns

With all this talk of BestBuy getting it on a certain day, is there any reason to think that other retailers (Amazon, Buy.com) wouldn't have it the same day or not _too_ much later? I have some Buy.com coupons burning a hole in my pocket.


----------



## nhey

Will I be able to hook my Comcast digital cable (via the RCA pin) into the Tivo Series 3, like I do with my 3412 DVR, and record 2 HD programs or do I need to get a cable card?


----------



## bidger

greg_burns said:


> With all this talk of BestBuy getting it on a certain day, is there any reason to think that other retailers (Amazon, Buy.com) wouldn't have it the same day or not _too_ much later? I have some Buy.com coupons burning a hole in my pocket.


The only thing that might hinder it, Greg, is if BB has a limited term exclusivity deal with TiVo, like D* has with BB for the HR20-700.

I'm not saying that TiVo does, but it would slow the release to online retailers if they do.


----------



## Dan203

greg_burns said:


> With all this talk of BestBuy getting it on a certain day, is there any reason to think that other retailers (Amazon, Buy.com) wouldn't have it the same day or not _too_ much later? I have some Buy.com coupons burning a hole in my pocket.


I've got some Amazon.com gift certificates I'd like to apply toward a S3 as well. Although if they don't have them right away I'll probably buy one at full price on day one, then hold off on the second one until they do.

Dan


----------



## Dan203

nhey said:


> Will I be able to hook my Comcast digital cable (via the RCA pin) into the Tivo Series 3, like I do with my 3412 DVR, and record 2 HD programs or do I need to get a cable card?


The S3 will NOT record from any external box. It'll record from antenna and cable, that's it!

Dan


----------



## zalusky

Dan203 said:


> The S3 will NOT record from any external box. It'll record from antenna and cable, that's it!
> 
> Dan


What if the external box uses channel 3 out and you do a channel 3 merge to your existing antenna coax. There are plenty of setups to do that at places like hometech and the like.

You would probably have to set manual recordings for that channel and have a smart remote change the settop box channel but its possible and you will get the crappiest resolution but it is doable just not desireable.


----------



## MickeS

zalusky, yeah, can't believe they haven't mentioned that!


----------



## Bierboy

MickeS said:


> zalusky, yeah, can't believe they haven't mentioned that!


This was mentioned months ago in TCF....not a new idea.


----------



## MickeS

BestBuy often have special sales for BB card and/or Zone card holders... that's how I got my LCD TV for 12% off. I hope they'll have one soon again and that it'll include the S3... that would be $100 off


----------



## ChuckyBox

zalusky said:


> What if the external box uses channel 3 out and you do a channel 3 merge to your existing antenna coax. There are plenty of setups to do that at places like hometech and the like.
> 
> You would probably have to set manual recordings for that channel and have a smart remote change the settop box channel but its possible and you will get the crappiest resolution but it is doable just not desireable.


You could also take the analog out from the cable box and run it into a transmitter broadcasting on a certain channel, then use an antenna to receive the signal and run it into the S3's antenna port to record it. Sure it's stupid and expensive and illegal, but it solves the problem of using the S3 and an external box, so go for it.


----------



## Dan203

zalusky said:


> What if the external box uses channel 3 out and you do a channel 3 merge to your existing antenna coax. There are plenty of setups to do that at places like hometech and the like.
> 
> You would probably have to set manual recordings for that channel and have a smart remote change the settop box channel but its possible and you will get the crappiest resolution but it is doable just not desireable.


That would work, but unlike the S2 units the S3 will not have serial or IR ports so it will have no way of actually controlling the external box. So unless you only want to record one channel it really wouldn't be a viable option.

Dan


----------



## zalusky

Dan203 said:


> That would work, but unlike the S2 units the S3 will not have serial or IR ports so it will have no way of actually controlling the external box. So unless you only want to record one channel it really wouldn't be a viable option.
> 
> Dan


I agree, buy the appropriate tool and enjoy. Some people however like to complicate things. And ofcourse some of those people are the cable company with SDV and this is where some people would try to do this.


----------



## Dan203

Such a person would be much better off picking up a S2 to record the SDV channels. It would be a whole lot easier then anything you might be able to put together using a S3.

Dan


----------



## MickeS

ReikiBoy said:


> The dental work was a waste? How long do you expect your dental work to last? In the computer biz a particular product is expected to last 7 years. Development of newer models overlaps by about 4 years. Won't your dental work give you more years of satisfaction?


Given my dental hygiene, a Series 3 would probably have been a better investment if you look at yearly expenses. 

Still, it really did annoy me... the pain started yesterday, and it was so bad that as soon as it started I was thinking to myself "damn, this is gonna cost as much as a Series 3 TiVo..." and it did - almost exactly ($815). 

I might have to buy a S3 just to cheer myself up.


----------



## greg_burns

MickeS said:


> Given my dental hygiene, a Series 3 would probably have been a better investment if you look at yearly expenses.
> 
> Still, it really did annoy me... the pain started yesterday, and it was so bad that as soon as it started I was thinking to myself "damn, this is gonna cost as much as a Series 3 TiVo..." and it did - almost exactly ($815).
> 
> I might have to buy a S3 just to cheer myself up.


But can you tune any OTA HD with the new fillings?


----------



## kb7oeb

ChuckyBox said:


> Sure it's stupid and expensive and illegal, but it solves the problem of using the S3 and an external box, so go for it.


Modulators are cheap and there is nothing illegal about them, but it would be stupid


----------



## drew2k

greg_burns said:


> With all this talk of BestBuy getting it on a certain day, is there any reason to think that other retailers (Amazon, Buy.com) wouldn't have it the same day or not _too_ much later? I have some Buy.com coupons burning a hole in my pocket.


Hmm ... I wonder if Costco will carry the Series 3?

For comparison purposes, Costco sells the 180 Hour S2 DT TiVo for $299, while Best Buy has it for $349 (both prices are before any rebates).

If Costco carries the S3, does anyone think Costco would have anywhere close to the same savings on the S3 as on the DT? If I did the math right, it's 15% cheaper at Costco, and if life was good to me, the $800 MSRP on the S3 would be approx. $680 at Costco! This is pure speculation on my part that the same discounted rate is used, but I have a $169 reward check from my Executive membership and that would NICELY reduce the S3 price to a little over $500 - a price that is nice and comfy for me!


----------



## tunnelengineer

Good luck with that. I doubt they will have it available within the first few months. It would probably be after the holidays at the earliest. 

If they would have it right away, I would think it would be priced the same as everywhere else.


----------



## MickeS

Yeah, Costco normally doesn't get stuff right when it's released, but itmight be worth the wait. They are almost always cheaper than any other retail store.


----------



## Bierboy

Crutchfield also indicated to me in an e-mail that they, eventually, will have the S3. But they said it might not be until the holiday season. A search for "TiVo" on their Web site yields nothing right now.


----------



## greg_burns

Bierboy said:


> Crutchfield also indicated to me in an e-mail that they, eventually, will have the S3. But they said it might not be until the holiday season. A search for "TiVo" on their Web site yields nothing right now.


I love Crutchfield, but their prices are never very competitive. I won't be shopping for an S3 there (nor BestBuy :down: ).


----------



## Bierboy

greg_burns said:


> I love Crutchfield, but their prices are never very competitive. I won't be shopping for an S3 there (nor BestBuy :down: ).


I agree their prices are ALWAYS higher, but you absolutely cannot beat their customer service. And their return policies.


----------



## greg_burns

Bierboy said:


> I agree their prices are ALWAYS higher, but you absolutely cannot beat their customer service. And their return policies.


Can I get an amen!

But can you say the same for BestBuy?


----------



## Bierboy

greg_burns said:


> Can I get an amen!
> 
> But can you say the same for BestBuy?


Oh, absolutely NOT.


----------



## nhey

nhey said:


> Will I be able to hook my Comcast digital cable (via the RCA pin) into the Tivo Series 3, like I do with my 3412 DVR, and record 2 HD programs or do I need to get a cable card?


Let me clarify my question. I mean, can I connect the cable wire that comes through the wall that I currently have connected to a 3412 STB, to the S3 directly, (and get rid of the 3412) and record 2 HD programs at the same time?


----------



## yunlin12

Yes, you need to get cable cards. I believe cable co's are still using single stream cable cards, so one card can only provide one channel at a time. To make the S3 DT work, you need to put in 2 cards.


----------



## nhey

yunlin12 said:


> Yes, you need to get cable cards. I believe cable co's are still using single stream cable cards, so one card can only provide one channel at a time. To make the S3 DT work, you need to put in 2 cards.


I wonder how willing Comcast will be to install 2 cablecards in a non-Comcast box. Might be difficult. Also, if there is any difficulty, which there usually is with cablecards, will they be willing to work it out?


----------



## cmaasfamily

nhey said:


> I wonder how willing Comcast will be to install 2 cablecards in a non-Comcast box. Might be difficult. Also, if there is any difficulty, which there usually is with cablecards, will they be willing to work it out?


Well, there are no Comcast boxes that accept cable cards, so that shouldn't be a factor. I have two cable card TV's on my Comcast account. No problems with installation or operation. (OK, long lead time to get an installer and took three months for them to figure out my billing - but that was nearly a year ago; smooth sailing since then.)


----------



## cwoody222

nhey said:


> I wonder how willing Comcast will be to install 2 cablecards in a non-Comcast box. Might be difficult. Also, if there is any difficulty, which there usually is with cablecards, will they be willing to work it out?


They have to supply CableCards. They have to support approved products (which TiVo is one). You're their customer. Make them work it out.

EDIT: This is TiVo's communication to cable co's regarding them offering Cablecards to their devices.
http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2006/09/ad_to_tv_indust.html


----------



## jsmeeker

nhey said:


> I wonder how willing Comcast will be to install 2 cablecards in a non-Comcast box. Might be difficult. Also, if there is any difficulty, which there usually is with cablecards, will they be willing to work it out?


Comcast (and every other cable company) would never be installing a CableCARD in a Comcast (or whatever) box. The whole point of the CableCARD is to NOT have the cable box from your cable company.


----------



## nhey

jsmeeker said:


> Comcast (and every other cable company) would never be installing a CableCARD in a Comcast (or whatever) box. The whole point of the CableCARD is to NOT have the cable box from your cable company.


O.K. I understand.

So is the only functionality that will be lost if I use an S3 the loss of the video-on-demand service? Comcast charges the same monthly fee for a cable card as they do for their DVR STB, so if I kept my 3412 for VOD, I'd end up paying for it as well as 2 cablecards = triple what I currently pay.


----------



## sommerfeld

jsmeeker said:


> Comcast (and every other cable company) would never be installing a CableCARD in a Comcast (or whatever) box. The whole point of the CableCARD is to NOT have the cable box from your cable company.


There appears to be an additional FCC regulation presently scheduled to take effect in July 2007 which will essentially require cableco's to use cable cards in the STB's they rent, putting their STB's on equal footing with third-party devices.

See: 
CableCard Swipes at Set-Top Boxes, http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71682-0.html?tw=wn_technology_1

Cable companies lose round in CableCard battle, http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-6107359.html


----------



## cwoody222

Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?


----------



## Jazhuis

jsmeeker said:


> Comcast (and every other cable company) would never be installing a CableCARD in a Comcast (or whatever) box. The whole point of the CableCARD is to NOT have the cable box from your cable company.


Not true, actually. The current FCC mandate states that by...sometime next year (until they drag their feet again)...ALL cable-capable boxes must use Cablecards. So even the cable companys' set top boxes will be a Motorola or SA or whatever box with a CC slot.

Again, though, that's how I understand the current mandate to be, and that's assuming the FCC actually has enough of a spine to make it stick.

nhey: Interesting...I think Comcast's CC fees differ by area, some are free (for the first card), or just $1-2. You might want to ask again. Although I thought there was some regulation saying that they were supposed to impose no additional cost. (Although I guess Comcast saying "no additional cost...more than what you would have been paying us anyway.")


----------



## sommerfeld

cwoody222 said:


> Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?


because in the post july 2007 world, the cable co's box would be about as capable as a brick without the cable card. presumably the cableco will rent you box + cablecard for $X, or just a cablecard for $Y, witih X >= Y.


----------



## cwoody222

So in the future we have to rent 2 'things' and have more possibility for something to break or something not to work quite right? Instead of having ONE STB that does it all? Sounds like a step backwards to me?

And what about things like VOD? Will 2.0 standards be depoloyed and approved by July 07? If not, how will VOD or cable co's channel guides work?


----------



## nhey

cwoody222 said:


> Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?


The cable co's box would provide PPV and video-0n-demand, while the cablecards are needed for the TIVO S3 for digital ( and all HD) programming.

I called Comcast in my area a few months ago and was told the montly fee for a cable card = the fee for their DVR STB because the cable card "replaces it".


----------



## classicX

jsmeeker said:


> Comcast (and every other cable company) would never be installing a CableCARD in a Comcast (or whatever) box. The whole point of the CableCARD is to NOT have the cable box from your cable company.


When I had CableVision, their STBs had cable cards in them. My comcast boxes do not, however.


----------



## TK421

cwoody222 said:


> So in the future we have to rent 2 'things' and have more possibility for something to break or something not to work quite right? Instead of having ONE STB that does it all? Sounds like a step backwards to me?


I don't think you'll really have to rent two things, just all STB will use the cable card technology. They'll most likely come with the CC already installed and operational. It will be similar to using a satellite receiver with a smart card.



> And what about things like VOD? Will 2.0 standards be depoloyed and approved by July 07? If not, how will VOD or cable co's channel guides work?


Good question. I would guess that if the 2.0 standards aren't complete, this will be the reason the cable companies give to the FCC to extend the deadline.


----------



## classicX

cwoody222 said:


> So in the future we have to rent 2 'things' and have more possibility for something to break or something not to work quite right? Instead of having ONE STB that does it all? Sounds like a step backwards to me?
> 
> And what about things like VOD? Will 2.0 standards be depoloyed and approved by July 07? If not, how will VOD or cable co's channel guides work?


In any case, I would think that the cable company boxes will use the cablecard for decrypting and mapping channels, but the VOD and interactive Guide and PPV would work just as they do now. Why would that change?


----------



## nhey

cwoody222 said:


> Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?


The cable co's box would provide PPV and video-0n-demand, while the cablecards are needed for the TIVO S3 for digital ( and all HD) programming.

I just called Comcast and was told the cablecard is "free". That's good news.

How does the S3 get it's program guide for Comcast programming? Is it obtained from comcast over the cablecard?


----------



## cwoody222

nhey said:


> T
> How does the S3 get it's program guide for Comcast programming? Is it obtained from comcast over the cablecard?


No, it's obtained from Tribune Media / Zap2It.com like all other SA TiVos.

Note... I advise anyone in the market for a S3 and want to use OTA HD to visit zap2it.com to check whether your local listings are correct.

Lots of my sub-channels are completely wrong 

I sent an email to have them corrected but that could take time / effort.


----------



## morac

nhey said:


> I just called Comcast and was told the cablecard is "free". That's good news.


I'd call them again, because that is definately not true. Comcast charges the same rental price for a box or a card. Some packages include the box rental fee which would mean the box would be "free". If you replaced the box with the cablecard the cablecard would also be "free". If you added a card, you'd have to pay an extra $5.

I'm not sure what Comcast's take is on having 2 cards in one device. I would assume they would charge for two cards, but others have said that they actually charge per device which would only charge for one card. Personally I don't see how Comcast can charge the same rental fee for a > $400 cable box as a < $50 cable card.


----------



## classicX

morac said:


> I'd call them again, because that is definately not true. Comcast charges the same rental price for a box or a card. Some packages include the box rental fee which would mean the box would be "free". If you replaced the box with the cablecard the cablecard would also be "free". If you added a card, you'd have to pay an extra $5.
> 
> I'm not sure what Comcast's take is on having 2 cards in one device. I would assume they would charge for two cards, but others have said that they actually charge per device which would only charge for one card. Personally I don't see how Comcast can charge the same rental fee for a > $400 cable box as a < $50 cable card.


You'd call them again and you'd be wasting your time. Comcast charges differently for CableCard in different areas.

In New Jersey, for me, Cablecard is FREE.

Installation is not, though.


----------



## Jazhuis

nhey said:


> How does the S3 get it's program guide for Comcast programming? Is it obtained from comcast over the cablecard?


No, program guide should still be coming from Tivo via phone or network. The cablecard's primary purpose at that point is twofold:
1. Unencrypt the digital channels you subscribe to.
2. Correctly map the QAM subchannels to the Comcast channels. Tivo's guide information is going to be based on the Comcast numbers (they rarely change).


----------



## drew2k

classicX said:


> When I had CableVision, their STBs had cable cards in them. My comcast boxes do not, however.


That probably wasn't a cablecard in the Cablevision box - it was most likely a "smart card" that authorized the receiver, much like the DirecTV or Dish cards. CableCards are like PCMCIA cards - much thicker than the credit-card sized smart cards.


----------



## MichaelK

nhey said:


> The cable co's box would provide PPV and video-0n-demand, while the cablecards are needed for the TIVO S3 for digital ( and all HD) programming.
> 
> I called Comcast in my area a few months ago and was told the montly fee for a cable card = the fee for their DVR STB because the cable card "replaces it".


I believe cablecards are free from comcast.

The big 5 cablco's basically agreed to rent them for $2 or less so the FCC wouldn't regulate a price.

BUT they can charge an "addtional outlet fee". If you get a STB from them it apparently would cost box rental + addtioanl outlet fee, if you get a tivo it will apparently cost nothing for cablecard but likely an addtional outlet fee.

At least that's how I understand it currently....


----------



## MichaelK

TK421 said:


> ...
> 
> Good question. I would guess that if the 2.0 standards aren't complete, this will be the reason the cable companies give to the FCC to extend the deadline.


apparently they can use one way cablecards for security and still have proprietary stuff in the box for VOD and SDV and the like. Search for posts from DT_DC, he explains it best.


----------



## dt_dc

MichaelK said:


> apparently they can use one way cablecards for security and still have proprietary stuff in the box for VOD and SDV and the like. Search for posts from DT_DC, he explains it best.


This was the post:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4323142&&#post4323142

Here's an example of the kind of boxes cable suppliers have been showing in case the integration ban holds ... and OCAP / DCAS isn't fully rolled out. The SciAtl 8300HDC. A CableCard DVR, but runs all the same existing software (guide, VOD, SDV, DVR, etc) as the existing SciAtl 8300HD. Ie, basically it looks acts and feels just like existing cable boxes ... it just uses the CableCard for security:
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/ExplorerClubGuides/getting_started/4013171.pdf

I wish I could find the link to it again ... there was an interview in one of the trade magizines with a couple cable CTOs talking about DCAS and if the integration ban holds ... and DCAS isn't ready to go yet ... cable's suppliers are ready to start providing these boxes ...


----------



## MichaelK

thank you sir.

always a pleasure!


----------



## greenstork

cwoody222 said:


> Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?


Cable viewing in two rooms?


----------



## boblip11

cwoody222 said:


> Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?


I have this situation. (But the cablecard is free after a $30 install)

My SA box from comcast only always outputs at 1080i even for analog channels. I hate the sidebars on analog channels (like most people)...but the zoom capability on the SA box is really bad. My Aquos does a much better job...so I have a cablecard to let me have the Aquos do the zooming. If I am watch HD live...I think the quality is better with the cablecard than the Sci-Atlantic box.

I am at bit bummed that I cannot just take the cablecard out of my TV and put it into my HDTivo...but I will be getting a HDTivo ASAP...the SA cable DVR has reduced my wife to tears several times. The UI is just terrible. She would rather watch shows in SD on the upstairs TIVO than try to get the show in HD on the cable DVR.


----------



## nathanziarek

boblip11 said:


> I hate the sidebars on analog channels (like most people)


FWIW, not me. I prefer to see then entire frame *and* the people not look like fat midgets. Letterboxing never bothered me, either.

I've read a number of threads here, but no one really seems to nail this question: Have we been guaranteed that the S3 will not have TTG/MRV out of the gate but it is expected soon after? Or is everything regarding those two features pure speculation at this time?

n


----------



## bkdtv

> I've read a number of threads here, but no one really seems to nail this question: Have we been guaranteed that the S3 will not have TTG/MRV out of the gate but it is expected soon after? Or is everything regarding those two features pure speculation at this time?


Tivo has said they will be supporting MRV, but we don't know if will be supported from day one. Tivo has also said there could be some restrictions on what HDTV channels will work with MRV and TivoToGo, so we'll have to wait and see about that.


----------



## dr_mal

nathanziarek said:


> FWIW, not me. I prefer to see then entire frame *and* the people not look like fat midgets. Letterboxing never bothered me, either.


+1

Of course, since I went HD, the amount of 4:3 SD programming I watch is pretty much zero anyway.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bkdtv said:


> Tivo has said they will be supporting MRV, but we don't know if will be supported from day one. Tivo has also said there could be some restrictions on what HDTV channels will work with MRV and TivoToGo, so we'll have to wait and see about that.


TiVo has said *they would like to* and yes anything about these two features is speculation


----------



## ufo4sale

stupid question but wouldn't it be painfully slow to transfer an HD show from one Tivo to another using MRV?


----------



## MickeS

ufo4sale said:


> stupid question but wouldn't it be painfully slow to transfer an HD show from one Tivo to another using MRV?


Depends on whether they changed the way they process the file with regards to DRM or not, and what other hardware changes there are. If it's exactly the same as S2, yes it would be painfully slow.


----------



## jfh3

boblip11 said:


> I am at bit bummed that I cannot just take the cablecard out of my TV and put it into my HDTivo...


Actually, you should be able to do this. But you will have to call the cable company have have them reprovision the card.


----------



## etsolow

Or, possibly, they'll require a truck roll to come out, plug the card into the Tivo for you and call in the info.


----------



## jeffrypennock

nathanziarek said:


> FWIW, not me. I prefer to see then entire frame *and* the people not look like fat midgets. Letterboxing never bothered me, either.
> 
> n


Fat midgets piss me off.


----------



## dt_dc

boblip11 said:


> My SA box from comcast only always outputs at 1080i even for analog channels.


BTW, the only SciAtl box that is locked into 1080i is the 3100HD. All SciAtl's other boxes allow for outputting different formats (or even 'native' output where the output is exactly as recorded with no conversion by the box).

If you have a 3100HD ... call Comcast and ask for a swap (to the 3250HD).

If you have any other SciAtl box ...

If you're running SARA (which most Comcast SciAtl plants seem to be running) see the following for how to set up the box to output formats other than 1080i:
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/ExplorerClubGuides/getting_started/4003114B.pdf
Note: allow for some minor differences with what you may see due to software version differences

If you're running Passport ... I'm 99% sure they have a way to do something similar but ... I don't have Passport so I don't have the links / instructions handy.


----------



## Dan203

ufo4sale said:


> stupid question but wouldn't it be painfully slow to transfer an HD show from one Tivo to another using MRV?


The S3 has built in Ethernet. So if you have two units connected directly to a 10/100 network then you should be able to transfer HD between them in about half realtime. (realworld throughput of 10/100 Ethernet is about 45Mbps. HDTV is about 20Mbps) TiVoToGo is a different story. For that the bottle neck is the processor as it has the sole responsibility of multiplexing the audio and video data into a standard MPEG-2 programs stream. If the processor is fast then it should have no problem keeping pace with the speed of the network. However if it's not then it could be painfully slow. We'll just have to wait and see on that one.

Dan


----------



## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> .... TiVoToGo is a different story. For that the bottle neck is the processor as it has the sole responsibility of multiplexing the audio and video data into a standard MPEG-2 programs stream. If the processor is fast then it should have no problem keeping pace with the speed of the network. However if it's not then it could be painfully slow. We'll just have to wait and see on that one.
> 
> Dan


wow- thanks for that explanation- I couldn't figure out why TTG is as slow as it is with my series2.


----------



## classicX

nathanziarek said:


> FWIW, not me. I prefer to see then entire frame *and* the people not look like fat midgets. Letterboxing never bothered me, either.
> 
> I've read a number of threads here, but no one really seems to nail this question: Have we been guaranteed that the S3 will not have TTG/MRV out of the gate but it is expected soon after? Or is everything regarding those two features pure speculation at this time?
> 
> n


I prefer the screen to be filled, especially on my plasma. I bought the pixels, I'm sure going to use them. I love it when I get a show in 4:3 that is also letterboxed. The pictures is bordered by black on all sides. Thank goodness for the zoom function of the SA boxes.

My brother and his wife have a widescreen plasma (EDTV) and have basic cable, which means no HD. So 100% of the TV they watch is 4:3. DVDs are full screen. They never bothered to stretch out the image for about a year. One day I got tired of it and stretched it, and now the two "bars" on the sides are noticeably brighter than the rest of the image in the center.

When I saw that, I was galvanized. I will never watch standard TV unstretched.


----------



## btwyx

classicX said:


> I will never watch standard TV unstretched.


I also don't want to watch it badly stretched. Luckily the scaler in my plasma display has a reasonably good stretch.


----------



## nathanziarek

Dan203 said:


> The S3 has built in Ethernet. So if you have two units connected directly to a 10/100 network...


I couldn't find any reference to the TiVo possibly having 10/100/1000 (gigabit?). If that was the case I'd feel better about MRV being a usable possibility...

As far as MRV goes, one of the big reasons I am interested in the S3 is that I have 2 HDTVs and I'd like to be able to watch recorded stuff on either of them without recording it twice. I really hope whatever legal/technical hurdles there are (if any, I know we're all just guessing here) can be overcome.

Speaking of which - if I've got two TiVos networked, I should be able to record three programs at the same time and TiVo A should know to schedule the 3rd on TiVo B...

Hmmm...what was the point of this topic again  ?


----------



## marshdom

Dumb question (and sorry - haven't read through all ~25 pages) ...

If, hypothetically, my current D* HD-Tivo stopped working ... and was still covered under a BB extended warranty ... what do you think the chances are that BB would replace it with an S3 (as opposed to giving me another D* HD-Tivo)? Seems like I could make the argument that the D* is becoming somewhat "obsolete" - since it won't be able to record HD locals (coming soon to my area), but then they might try to push a D* branded HD-DVR (sorry - don't know all of the model numbers) on me? Seems like the S3 would be a fair replacement product, especially since I paid $899 for the HD-Tivo a few years ago. Thoughts?

Wonder what the most common failures (warranty claims) are on the old D* HD-Tivo ...


----------



## greg_burns

marshdom said:


> Dumb question (and sorry - haven't read through all ~25 pages) ...
> 
> If, hypothetically, my current D* HD-Tivo stopped working ... and was still covered under a BB extended warranty ... what do you think the chances are that BB would replace it with an S3 (as opposed to giving me another D* HD-Tivo)? Seems like I could make the argument that the D* is becoming somewhat "obsolete" - since it won't be able to record HD locals (coming soon to my area), but then they might try to push a D* branded HD-DVR (sorry - don't know all of the model numbers) on me? Seems like the S3 would be a fair replacement product, especially since I paid $899 for the HD-Tivo a few years ago. Thoughts?
> 
> Wonder what the most common failures (warranty claims) are on the old D* HD-Tivo ...


S3 doesn't do satellite, so that would be stupid thing for BB to do. Therefore, your chances are excellent.


----------



## MickeS

classicX said:


> I prefer the screen to be filled, especially on my plasma. I bought the pixels, I'm sure going to use them. I love it when I get a show in 4:3 that is also letterboxed. The pictures is bordered by black on all sides. Thank goodness for the zoom function of the SA boxes.


My TV only has two modes, 16:9 or 4:3 and no zoom... which has led me to download shows and transfer them to my Series 2 instead of recording them, since the downloads are native 16:9.

I really hope the S3 has a zoom mode, so the letterbox 4:3 recordings can be viewed fullscreen... but I doubt it does...


----------



## MichaelK

nathanziarek said:


> I couldn't find any reference to the TiVo possibly having 10/100/1000 (gigabit?). If that was the case I'd feel better about MRV being a usable possibility...
> 
> As far as MRV goes, one of the big reasons I am interested in the S3 is that I have 2 HDTVs and I'd like to be able to watch recorded stuff on either of them without recording it twice. I really hope whatever legal/technical hurdles there are (if any, I know we're all just guessing here) can be overcome.
> 
> Speaking of which - if I've got two TiVos networked, I should be able to record three programs at the same time and TiVo A should know to schedule the 3rd on TiVo B...
> 
> Hmmm...what was the point of this topic again  ?


Dans math seems to show easily that 100 speed network will be fine.

Currently TiVo (the company) hasn't figured out how to get boxes to talk to each other to schedule. But for years now the hackers have a way that if there is a conflict bob a will poll box B and ask if it has a free tuner and box b would then schedule the program.

But series 3 are likly to be unhackable for some time (if ever...)

Maybe one day TiVo will add DVR access to HME so JavaHMO can build an HME app to do that, but for now it's a dream....


----------



## talmania

Speaking of "hacking" the S3, is it possible that the internal drive will be upgradeable like every other Tivo thats come out? Will the process be the same? Yes I realize it's probably too early to tell but speculation is fun.


----------



## MickeS

I hope the internal drive is upgradable. Even though it's easier with external expansion drives, they consume more power and require an extra outlet, not to mention can sometimes have quite noisy enclosures.


----------



## ashu

jeffrypennock said:


> Fat midgets piss me off.


ROTFLMFAO!

Oh, and +1 for watching OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) or NOT At All!


----------



## Dan203

nathanziarek said:


> I couldn't find any reference to the TiVo possibly having 10/100/1000 (gigabit?). If that was the case I'd feel better about MRV being a usable possibility.../QUOTE]
> 
> According to the info Megazone got from CES it will be 10/100 only, no gigabit. Although as I pointed out above that should be fast enough to transfer HD at about half realtime. (i.e. 1 hour program should only take about 30 minutes to transfer)
> 
> 
> 
> nathanziarek said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as MRV goes, one of the big reasons I am interested in the S3 is that I have 2 HDTVs and I'd like to be able to watch recorded stuff on either of them without recording it twice. I really hope whatever legal/technical hurdles there are (if any, I know we're all just guessing here) can be overcome.[/QUOTE}
> 
> Well it's illegal for them to put any restrictions on local broadcast stations, so at the very least you'll be able to MRV and TTG anything recorded from one of the local stations. The digital cable side of things allows for copy protection flags, but they have to be explicitly applied by the content owner so there is a good chance the basic digital stations will be clear as well. So really all you'll have to worry about is the premium stations like HBO and Sho.
> 
> Dan
Click to expand...


----------



## kb7oeb

HD files max out around 19Mb, its no problem to stream over a 100Mb lan. I often play HD files over my network without issue.


----------



## bkdtv

> Even though it's easier with external expansion drives, they consume more power and require an extra outlet, not to mention can sometimes have quite noisy enclosures.


The power on a modern hard drive is negligible, a small fraction of what it takes to run a light bulb. There's no reason an external drive should be any noiser than an internal one.

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=370891
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...500Gb&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1142294266760


----------



## 1283

The S3 chasis is supposed to be "quiet", as opposed to the noisy S2 chasis without any damping material.


----------



## bkdtv

The solution I linked above is silent from 6 feet. If you can't hear the external, the internal can't be any less noisy.


----------



## greg_burns

bkdtv said:


> The power on a modern hard drive is negligible, a small fraction of what it takes to run a light bulb. There's no reason an external drive should be any noiser than an internal one.
> 
> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=370891
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...500Gb&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1142294266760


I've got a CoolGear SataVault sitting hear beside me (on loan from work), and it is rather noisy. Buyer beware.

A selling point of the Thecus is its quietness. I'm thinking about ordering one.


----------



## MickeS

bkdtv said:


> The power on a modern hard drive is negligible, a small fraction of what it takes to run a light bulb. There's no reason an external drive should be any noiser than an internal one.
> 
> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=370891
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...500Gb&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1142294266760


The drive itself is not necessarily noisier, but depending on how the enclosure is cooled, it might be. And you still have to deal with the issue of more cables... and I've already used up every plug on my surge protector.


----------



## greg_burns

bkdtv said:


> The power on a modern hard drive is negligible, a small fraction of what it takes to run a light bulb.


[way OT]
I've noticed Windows Vista now powers down individual harddrives in my computer that are not being actively used.  Must be a new power saving feature enabled by default. Rather disconcerting.
[/way OT]


----------



## classicX

kb7oeb said:


> HD files max out around 19Mb, its no problem to stream over a 100Mb lan. I often play HD files over my network without issue.


I hope you mean 19 mpbs! 

If they were 19MB I would have every show I ever watched on my computer!


----------



## talmania

greg_burns said:


> I've got a CoolGear sitting hear beside me (on loan from work), and it is rather noisy. Buyer beware.
> 
> A selling point of the Thecus is its quietness. I'm thinking about ordering one.


Wow..I'm sooooo glad I read your post! Thank you!

I was seriously considering that exact model from Cooldrives for my home PC. I've gone to great lengths to quiet everything in my system and sounds like I would have been terribly disappointed if I had moved forward with a purchase.


----------



## apsarkis

ashu said:


> Oh, and +1 for watching OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) or NOT At All!


I'm with you. What's the point of buying an expensive HDTV and then distorting the image by stretching it out? Any scaler setting other than "Dot-by-Dot" (what it's called on my Sharp Aquos) is lowering the picture quality.


----------



## jfh3

I wonder about the 9/17 date - I was in my local BB today, got a rep to show me the screen and it showed a release date of 09/08, with no boxes on order for the entire state.


----------



## Omikron

jfh3 said:


> I wonder about the 9/17 date - I was in my local BB today, got a rep to show me the screen and it showed a release date of 09/08, with no boxes on order for the entire state.


The "Release Date" in the Best Buy inventory system means absolutely nothing. Inventory can come in within a matter of days before a release, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.


----------



## stevel

greg_burns said:


> A selling point of the Thecus is its quietness. I'm thinking about ordering one.


I have the Thecus N2100 (network storage, not eSATA). Mine is very quiet, but it really depends on the drives you put in it. They'll determine how quiet or not the enclosure is. For mine, I have a pair of WD 500 drives in mine.

The N2100's enclosure is the same as the pointed-to N2050, so I would not expect any differences.


----------



## greg_burns

stevel said:


> I have the Thecus N2100 (network storage, not eSATA). Mine is very quiet, but it really depends on the drives you put in it. They'll determine how quiet or not the enclosure is. For mine, I have a pair of WD 500 drives in mine.
> 
> The N2100's enclosure is the same as the pointed-to N2050, so I would not expect any differences.


You may be right. I might be expecting too much from the noise level standpoint. I just stuck a pen into the fan running in the back of the SataVault. (hey it's not mine  ) Did NOT quiet it down signifigantly. I believe there is a pair of WD 250GB in the borrowed unit I have. Definately need to try some other drives before drawing too many more conclusions.

But since the Thecus is only about half the price, will probably get it anyways and then compare the two directly.

It will be interesting too see what solutions people choose for their eSata expansion on the S3.


----------



## MichaelK

greg_burns said:


> [way OT]
> I've noticed Windows Vista now powers down individual harddrives in my computer that are not being actively used.  Must be a new power saving feature enabled by default. Rather disconcerting.
> [/way OT]


I know it does it on XP also and i think it's been that way since like windows 98....

Maybe only more recently is it a default setting I guess...


----------



## aaronwt

So if I decide to get two or three of these S3 HDTiVos will I be able to network them together? I'm considering going back to Comcast since they offered me a 12 month deal for the digital tier with HBO and Showtime for $30 a month for 12 months. If I can network the boxes togeher then that would solve my problems and I can sell of most of my DirecTV equipment. I'd still need to keep DirecTV since Comcast doesn't have HDNet around here yet, and maybe to still use my SD TiVos for a few months.

Also would I need to get two cable cards to be able to record off HBO and Showtime simultaneously or does one cablecard work for both tuners?


----------



## etsolow

The S3's will have built in ethernet, so they are definitely network-capable. As to what advanced network features will be available (HMO/TTG/etc.) we don't have any solid information yet.


----------



## aaronwt

I wonder if I can use my BB 12% off coupon for the S3? It's good until the end of September. I'll probably have to slowly ease into this since I'll have to keep DirecTV alongside of Comcast initially. Hopefully I can get at least $250 for my HDTiVos then I can sell one to cover some of the cost of the first S3.


----------



## jfh3

Omikron said:


> The "Release Date" in the Best Buy inventory system means absolutely nothing. Inventory can come in within a matter of days before a release, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.


Maybe so, but it was this release date field at another Best Buy that was the basis of the 9/17 date, so if 9/08 means nothing, perhaps 9/17 does too. 

That said, the BB employee (business sales manager) I spoke to agreed with me when I said BB would start selling the box 9/17 and had a few weeks of retail exclusivity. Whether he actually knew that to be true, or was just agreeing because I sounded like I knew what I was talking about remains to be seen.


----------



## greg_burns

MichaelK said:


> I know it does it on XP also and i think it's been that way since like windows 98....
> 
> Maybe only more recently is it a default setting I guess...


Think you're right. Just caught me off guard.


----------



## morac

aaronwt said:


> I wonder if I can use my BB 12% off coupon for the S3? It's good until the end of September. I'll probably have to slowly ease into this since I'll have to keep DirecTV alongside of Comcast initially. Hopefully I can get at least $250 for my HDTiVos then I can sell one to cover some of the cost of the first S3.


Normally the coupons I get from BB say they do apply to TiVo so I would say yes. The coupons also apply to HD-TVs which cost a lot more than TiVo.

The coupons I got were only good for the Labor day weekend. I get them periodically though (most likely the next will be for Thanksgiving). If they do apply to TiVo I'll probably pick one up.

Usually BB also offers no interest financing so you don't have to plop down $800 all at once anyway.


----------



## morac

etsolow said:


> The S3's will have built in ethernet, so they are definitely network-capable. As to what advanced network features will be available (HMO/TTG/etc.) we don't have any solid information yet.


The Teleworld video already mentioned that it supports online scheduling, music, photos and the Yahoo apps so that would indicate that at least HME and HMO are enabled. There was nothing in the video about MRV or TTG though.

The "alien" video seemed to indicate that the S3 would support PC to TiVo video transfer though I wouldn't treat anything in that video as fact.


----------



## MichaelK

and yes- 2 cards needed to record from 2 encryted channels at the same time...


----------



## guildenstern

will the series 3 work with DirecTV? the 'coming soon' notice only mentions digital cable. anybody know?


----------



## greg_burns

guildenstern said:


> will the series 3 work with DirecTV? the 'coming soon' notice only mentions digital cable. anybody know?


Not at all. Only analog & digital (via CableCard) cable and OTA.


----------



## guildenstern

so, to go high def, you have to say goodbye to either directv or tivo, right?


----------



## greg_burns

guildenstern said:


> so, to go high def, you have to say goodbye to either directv or tivo, right?


For S3, yes. There is the old DirecTivo HR10-250. But DirectTV is going away from MPEG-2 towards MPEG-4, making it obsolete eventually. And it is slow (from what I hear).

*DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs* forum
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=36


----------



## MichaelK

morac said:


> Normally the coupons I get from BB say they do apply to TiVo so I would say yes. The coupons also apply to HD-TVs which cost a lot more than TiVo.
> 
> The coupons I got were only good for the Labor day weekend. I get them periodically though (most likely the next will be for Thanksgiving). If they do apply to TiVo I'll probably pick one up.
> 
> Usually BB also offers no interest financing so you don't have to plop down $800 all at once anyway.


where are you guys getting these coupons from- in the mail? Or is there an email newsletter to sign up for or something?

thanks


----------



## jfh3

guildenstern said:


> so, to go high def, you have to say goodbye to either directv or tivo, right?


What? No.

You can go high-def with Tivo Series 3 and cable
OR
DirecTV and HR10-250 (Tivo)


----------



## George Cifranci

MichaelK said:


> where are you guys getting these coupons from- in the mail? Or is there an email newsletter to sign up for or something?
> 
> thanks


Yeah I get Besy Buy coupons in the mail all the time. I am a BB Reward Zone member so they have my address etc...

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?type=category&id=pcmcat44800050004


----------



## greg_burns

George Cifranci said:


> Yeah I get Besy Buy coupons in the mail all the time. I am a BB Reward Zone member so they have my address etc...
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?type=category&id=pcmcat44800050004


I get them as well, but I'm not a reward zone member. I did sign up for one of those free magazine subscriptions once. Probably how they got my address.


----------



## aaronwt

MichaelK said:


> where are you guys getting these coupons from- in the mail? Or is there an email newsletter to sign up for or something?
> 
> thanks


Reward zone. But I also got a 12% off coupon for my birthday that is good for the entire month of September. If I can use it for the S3, I will pick one up ASAP so I can try it out.
One question though. I see there is a monthly fee of $12.95 for TiVo. Now if/when I get two or three boxes does that drop to $6.95 for each box or $6.95 total?


----------



## nathanziarek

Engadget has a post saying that the S3 _will_ be $800. Isn't this still just speculation (maybe accepted speculation, but speculation none-the-less)

engadget com/2006/09/10/is-the-tivo-series3-worth-800/

I don't have 5 posts yet, so you'll have to add a dot after "engadget"
n


----------



## lorick

aaronwt said:


> Reward zone. But I also got a 12% off coupon for my birthday that is good for the entire month of September. If I can use it for the S3, I will pick one up ASAP so I can try it out.
> One question though. I see there is a monthly fee of $12.95 for TiVo. Now if/when I get two or three boxes does that drop to $6.95 for each box or $6.95 total?


You may want to check the back of the coupon, TiVo products are normally excluded.


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## greg_burns

lorick said:


> You may want to check the back of the coupon, TiVo products are normally excluded.


Don't know about the special the coupon he has, but the Sep 1-4 one I got last says good for TiVo hardware. I guess each one can be different though.


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## greg_burns

aaronwt said:


> One question though. I see there is a monthly fee of $12.95 for TiVo. Now if/when I get two or three boxes does that drop to $6.95 for each box or $6.95 total?


$6.95 for each additional box. The first stay at $12.95.


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## bkdtv

lorick said:


> You may want to check the back of the coupon, TiVo products are normally excluded.


The recent 10% off coupons from BB haven't excluded Tivos.


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## TexasAg

bkdtv said:


> You may want to check the back of the coupon, TiVo products are normally excluded.


My recent ones specifically say they apply to Tivos.


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## aaronwt

I'll have to take a closer look at the coupon when I get home tonight.


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## aaronwt

Well the coupon does say it can be used with TiVo. So hopefully they will have it available at BB before 9/30 so I can get 12% off plus the reward points.


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## ehardman

MichaelK said:


> where are you guys getting these coupons from- in the mail? Or is there an email newsletter to sign up for or something?
> 
> thanks


I just bought one on eBay.


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## montivette

Circuit City says the Series 3 will be available in October according to their website. http://circuitcity.shoplocal.com/ci...25&searchtext=tivo+series&go.x=0&go.y=0&go=Go


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## morac

montivette said:


> Circuit City says the Series 3 will be available in October according to their website. http://circuitcity.shoplocal.com/ci...25&searchtext=tivo+series&go.x=0&go.y=0&go=Go


You might want to clarify that as Circuit City says the S3 will be available from CircuitCity.com in October. If you take what it says at the web site you'd also infer that the S3 will stop selling November 2.


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## jeffrypennock

morac said:


> You might want to clarify that as Circuit City says the S3 will be available from CircuitCity.com in October. If you take what it says at the web site you'd also infer that the S3 will stop selling November 2.


True, but it also says that the DT will stop selling in November. I think that's either the result of some copy/paste from the DT listing OR the that rebate/whatever deal that will apply when they do start selling the S3 is expected to expire Nov 2. I don't think we should disbelieve that they're planning to sell it Oct because of the Nov 2nd thing.


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## JDguy

I don't know if this has been shared, but this came in the mail last Friday. (see attached)


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## ehardman

JDguy said:


> I don't know if this has been shared, but this came in the mail last Friday. (see attached)


Interesting, but I don't see any dates when available.


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## TexasAg

JDguy said:


> I don't know if this has been shared, but this came in the mail last Friday. (see attached)


It at least implies that TTG will work with the S3 right away.


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## ehardman

Just called the Wichita, KS store and they did not know about the flyer and they did not know when they would be in stock.


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## ah30k

I love the "Exclusively at ..." part!

I didn't know this would be the ONLY place to get one!


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## timckelley

There is no earthly way I'm shelling out $800 for this.


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## Bierboy

timckelley said:


> There is no earthly way I'm shelling out $800 for this.


Great....that means I can get one of the first ones just a tad earlier  !


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## timckelley

Bierboy said:


> Great....that means I can get one of the first ones just a tad earlier  !


Yes, be my guest and feel free to empty your wallet.


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## Bierboy

timckelley said:


> Yes, be my guest and feel free to empty your wallet.


Gladly....actually the wallet's already empty....but I've had the cash saved up for the S3 for quite awhile now. Hoping I can also afford to get an internal SATA drive and external enclosure to double the storage :up: .


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## tunnelengineer

That ad made me laugh. Especially the "Exclusively available" part. Wait a week and see what happens.


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## jfh3

JDguy said:


> I don't know if this has been shared, but this came in the mail last Friday. (see attached)


Thanks. Interesting that their text says up to 35 hours HD, when the Tivo showcase says 25 hours.

I realize that it will vary, based on quality of the source, but you think the base PR would pick one number and stick with it, assuming Ultimate didn't write the copy on their own.


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## bdraw

timckelley said:


> Yes, be my guest and feel free to empty your wallet.


Lucky for some of us it takes more than an $800 purchase to empty our wallet.


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## jauburn

timckelley said:


> There is no earthly way I'm shelling out $800 for this.


I agree. Ridiculous.


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## tunnelengineer

I think $599 is much easier to swallow for msot people.


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## Bierboy

JDguy said:


> I don't know if this has been shared, but this came in the mail last Friday. (see attached)


Interesting that, when you do a search for TiVo on the Ultimate Electronics Web site, the listings for single tuner TiVos all say "Limited Quantities -- Call Store for Details". Any speculation this might mean TiVo is clearing out the older S2s?


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## zalusky

tunnelengineer said:


> I think $599 is much easier to swallow for msot people.


I think back to the days of $1000 for the HR10-250. Lots of people bought.


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## jeffrypennock

Bierboy said:


> Interesting that, when you do a search for TiVo on the Ultimate Electronics Web site, the listings for single tuner TiVos all say "Limited Quantities -- Call Store for Details". Any speculation this might mean TiVo is clearing out the older S2s?


Soooo, DID you call the store for details?


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## jfh3

Bierboy said:


> Interesting that, when you do a search for TiVo on the Ultimate Electronics Web site, the listings for single tuner TiVos all say "Limited Quantities -- Call Store for Details". Any speculation this might mean TiVo is clearing out the older S2s?


Given that they won't be able to sell them after next spring, I doubt Tivo is manufacturing them any more and that once current stock is gone, that's it.

The DT is the new entry level Tivo.


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## Bierboy

jeffrypennock said:


> Soooo, DID you call the store for details?


Nope, we had an UE store in Davenport until just recently. It closed.


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## MediaLivingRoom

JDguy said:


> I don't know if this has been shared, but this came in the mail last Friday. (see attached)


The ad says DVR, but TiVo calls it DMR.

The ad talks about TiVoToGo but there should be a disclaimer about HD content. Are you sure this is real??


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## megazone

Looks like they whipped up their own ad copy.


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## musicforme

timckelley said:


> Yes, be my guest and feel free to empty your wallet.


You're just mad that UT lost to Ohio State.


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## timckelley

Hook 'em!


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## zachcarter

according to hdbeat, Best Buy takes a pre-order:

"Best Buy is taking pre-orders for the Series 3: Pick up date 9/17/06"

I can't post the url yet, but you guys can probably find "hdbeat"


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## Bierboy

zachcarter said:


> according to hdbeat, Best Buy takes a pre-order:
> 
> "Best Buy is taking pre-orders for the Series 3: Pick up date 9/17/06"
> 
> I can't post the url yet, but you guys can probably find "hdbeat"


There's another thread about this already.


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## ehardman

This whole Ultimate Electroncis thing is starting to smell like a hoax.


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## greenstork

Can someone confirm, is an external eSATA expansion option expected? Cost?


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## etsolow

Yes, although perhaps not at initial launch.

Cost of the official TiVo version has not been announced, but it is expected that you'll be able to pick up any eSATA enclosure and plop any SATA drive in it for current market prices.

E


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## bidger

zalusky said:


> I think back to the days of $1000 for the HR10-250. Lots of people bought.


It was the only HD DVR available for that provider at a time when HD through D* was popular, before the down-rezzing. Plus, it was for a market that was willing to pay for their satellite equipment.

Cable, on the other hand, is for people that prefer to lease their equipment, if they even choose to subscribe to the digital package(s). There will be loyalists and early adopters who will spring, but you've also got Comcast and Cox customers, maybe other cable cos. eventually, who will choose to wait for their integrated units and lease to avoid a large upfront cost to have equipment the cable co. will replace.


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## JohnBrowning

tunnelengineer said:


> I think $599 is much easier to swallow for msot people.


and $1 is even easier!

So, what's the point? I'm sure TiVo has run the business case for the product and knows their costs and desired margin. Costs will go down over time and so will the price. TiVo will determine an MSRP, sell it to retailers at some wholesale price, and retailers will sell it at whatever price they deem appropriate. THEN you and I get to decide whether that price works for each of us. Arguing about the price on a web site is simply a waste of bits!!


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## timckelley

But we like to argue, for entertainment value.


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## jacksonian

Didn't all of you guys do an online marketing survey for TiVo a couple of years ago. It was all about a HD TiVo, how much would you pay for x features, what if it was a lease with no cost up front, what if it was x upfront and x per month, etc...

I know I did one. I think I told them $800 sounded great 

Seriously, I did one of these.


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## tunnelengineer

JohnBrowning said:


> and $1 is even easier!
> 
> So, what's the point? I'm sure TiVo has run the business case for the product and knows their costs and desired margin. Costs will go down over time and so will the price. TiVo will determine an MSRP, sell it to retailers at some wholesale price, and retailers will sell it at whatever price they deem appropriate. THEN you and I get to decide whether that price works for each of us. Arguing about the price on a web site is simply a waste of bits!!


and posting that wasn't a waste on your behalf??

look back through this thread, i know you have to wade through a lot of random crap, but the original topic discussed a date and price. i was cmmenting on the price. i apologize to the whole community for posting about the topic. I guess I will stick to random useless crap from now on.......


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## aaronwt

jacksonian said:


> Didn't all of you guys do an online marketing survey for TiVo a couple of years ago. It was all about a HD TiVo, how much would you pay for x features, what if it was a lease with no cost up front, what if it was x upfront and x per month, etc...
> 
> I know I did one. I think I told them $800 sounded great
> 
> Seriously, I did one of these.


$800 two years ago made more sense. $500 to $600 would be a better price today.


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## cheer

JohnBrowning said:


> So, what's the point? I'm sure TiVo has run the business case for the product and knows their costs and desired margin.


Really? Businesses mess this up all the time. And Tivo's history...well, they haven't exactly been a vat of profitability.

Personally I think the price is a mistake, but time (and the market) will tell.


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## JPRosiak

So I found one site that claimed series 3 would record satellite as well as cable. Everything I have heard made it appear as though the series 3 is only going to support cable cards and OTA.
I wouldn't mind paying $800 for the series 3 if it didn't limit me to cable and OTA.

Do you think it is possible for series 3 to be able to use a satellite card with some type of MOD?


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## jeffrypennock

JPRosiak said:


> Do you think it is possible for series 3 to be able to use a satellite card with some type of MOD?


Nope.


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## Leo_N

There is about zero chance of that. The only reason they are able to do it with cable is the FCC is making the cable companies support an open standard via cablecard. They do not do this with satellite TV, although one might wonder why, seeing as satellite and cable are on pretty equal footing these days, if that is not a future FCC mandate.

But until that day, don't count on Tivo with satellite unless one of the satellite companies teams up again with Tivo as Directv originally did.


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## jeffrypennock

Leo_N said:


> There is about zero chance of that. The only reason they are able to do it with cable is the FCC is making the cable companies support an open standard via cablecard. They do not do this with satellite TV, although one might wonder why, seeing as satellite and cable are on pretty equal footing these days, if that is not a future FCC mandate.
> 
> But until that day, don't count on Tivo with satellite unless one of the satellite companies teams up again with Tivo as Directv originally did.


Besides, how could you? I thought HDMI passthrough was against the rules. How else is the TiVo going to record an HD signal unless it decodes it self (using the cableCARD)?

Off topic side note (which I'm comfortable doing since even if I'm wrong about the pass through, S3 STILL doesn't support satellite, it's an OTA/CC device, and because we all pretty much know what's gonna happen - TiVo.com tomorrow, BB on Sunday, pre-orders underway at some BBs): if the rules do prohibit HDMI pass through as part of the HDCP encryption protocols, how do those amps that have HDMI switches get away with it? I understand how they're definitely not violating the intent of the rules (prevention of copyright infringement by prevention of data capture) but how do they do it without introducing technology into the market that DOES break the spirit of the rules (thus allowing you to save your HD-DVD movies and "file share" them)?


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## Leo_N

jeffrypennock said:


> Besides, how could you? I thought HDMI passthrough was against the rules. How else is the TiVo going to record an HD signal unless it decodes it self (using the cableCARD)?
> 
> Off topic side note (which I'm comfortable doing since even if I'm wrong about the pass through, S3 STILL doesn't support satellite, it's an OTA/CC device, and because we all pretty much know what's gonna happen - TiVo.com tomorrow, BB on Sunday, pre-orders underway at some BBs): if the rules do prohibit HDMI pass through as part of the HDCP encryption protocols, how do those amps that have HDMI switches get away with it? I understand how they're definitely not violating the intent of the rules (prevention of copyright infringement by prevention of data capture) but how do they do it without introducing technology into the market that DOES break the spirit of the rules (thus allowing you to save your HD-DVD movies and "file share" them)?


I agree with you, the S3 will never do it. I was saying the only way a new(newer than S3) Tivo will ever do it again is if the FCC mandates some type of open standard ala cablecard, or if Tivo, Inc. again pairs up with a satellite company. Don't see that happening though, all these companies would rather make the money themselves rather than let Tivo make it. Not that I can say I blame them, they are here to make money. I'd just rather not give them any more of mine than necessary.


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## cwoody222

Full review - with video!

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/feature/...ith-video-two-cablecards-no-waitin-199936.php


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## cwoody222

Note:

Another feature that was sorely missed is TiVo2Go, where you can rip programs from the TiVo onto a computer, a mobile device or an iPod. There's no sign of that on this latest TiVo yet, and TiVo officials say they are investigating this and working on getting it certified, but couldn't say when that would happen.


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## montivette

Taken from the Series 3 FAQ page regarding this topic:

*Will the TiVoToGo feature and Multi-Room Viewing be available on the Series3 HD?*
_As always, TiVo's goal is to make all of the Emmy® award-winning TiVo service features available on all of our hardware platforms. Because TiVo worked directly with Cable Television Laboratories Inc. (CableLabs®) to enable the recording of digital standard definition and high definition channels with the TiVo Series3 HD box, this product has unique requirements, including what content can be taken off of the DVR and in what form. TiVo is working with CableLabs and our own engineering team to enable both Multi-Room Viewing and TiVoToGo functionality in a future release.
_

http://www.tivo.com/2.0.3hdDvr.faq.asp

Of course "future release" could mean future releases of new versions of the S3 box, or could it mean future release of software updates? Mmmm.


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## btwyx

http://www.tivo.com/vip is now active, so I ordered one. It is $799. The transfers only apply to ones bought from TiVo.


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## timckelley

btwyx said:


> The transfers only apply to ones bought from TiVo.


I bet that'll disappoint some people.


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## cwoody222

"And while we were pleasantly surprised that the Series3 allows you to scan and tune unencrypted QAM programming, we were disappointed in the inability to manually map those channels to their respective networks."

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/hands-on-with-the-tivo-series3/


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## Troy J B

btwyx said:


> http://www.tivo.com/vip is now active, so I ordered one. It is $799. The transfers only apply to ones bought from TiVo.


Hmm, my reading of that vip page is any series3 without service would be eligible for the transfer. Eg bundles are not eligible for the transfer, but series3 bought at retail would be.

Ooops, now I see note 1 about no retail... but I honestly do not think they will be tracking TSN's that they sell vs a retail might sell to determine eligibility.


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## Bai Shen

Troy J B said:


> Hmm, my reading of that vip page is any series3 without service would be eligible for the transfer. Eg bundles are not eligible for the transfer, but series3 bought at retail would be.
> 
> Now I need to call comcast for a early next week installation of cablecards and to pick up their 6412....
> Troy


The small print in at the bottom says only S3's bought through tivo.com are eligable.


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## HDTiVo

timckelley said:


> I bet that'll disappoint some people.


We have a winner.


----------

