# Comcast forced switchover and DT Series 2 owners???



## AwardBlvr (Nov 21, 2004)

So Comcast in the SF Bay Area is really messing with us.

Article today (2-2-2009) in the SJ Merc:

(Link removed because I only have four posts... just go look at the front-page article on the SJ Mercury's web site on Comcast)

*says that Comcast customers will now need a cable box because they are transitioning all the extended basic cable channels (like CNN, etc) to digital and that customers with analog cable MUST begin using a DTV converter.*

UG!

I have a *Lifetime subscription* to a DUAL TUNER Tivo (TCD649080) (upgraded recently with a larger HDD)

*SO HOW CAN I SUPPORT MY LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION, Dual Tuner TiVo habit?
*
I don't particularly need HD.

Does anyone think TiVo will offer a transition of my lifetime subscription to an DTV TiVO (With Dual Tuner)???

Does anyone make a TiVo-compatible converter box that can somehow provide TWO stations in a format that will let my TiVo record them simultaneously (like re-encode two channels on an internal modulator and output the two stations in an analog format)?

Anyway... I did not see this addressed in a FAQ, though it is hard to search through all the FAQ's.

Thanks for all the responses and solutions!

-Andrew


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

Whatever TiVo did, short of something that uses CableCARDs, will bang up against the lack of QAM support anyway.


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## CraigK (Jun 9, 2006)

Similar questions in this thread... Comcast DTA unboxing

Forum member fallingwater is working at getting the DTA box to work with a S2DT. See the end of the thread.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

AwardBlvr said:


> *says that Comcast customers will now need a cable box because they are transitioning all the extended basic cable channels (like CNN, etc) to digital and that customers with analog cable MUST begin using a DTV converter.*


If only extended basic is going to digital, your locals should still be available as analog signals, at least for a while. When they throw the switch, rerun guided setup, pick the new lineup and then check the channel list to see if they left you any analogs at all. If they did, you will be able to dual tune those. Since that is likely to be major networks, there is still a lot of material that you should be able to dual tune, much less than before, but hopefully not none.

After rerunning guided setup, you may need to delete and recreate any season passes that got orphaned by the switchover.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

It sounds like they're _not_ transitioning the _non-extended_ channels, whichever those might be -- probably broadcast equivalents, at least. That means you can still use both tuners, with an asymmetrical lineup. So one tuner will have access to all channels, and the other will only pick up the remaining analogs. But that's enough to resolve many conflicts, since broadcast network prime time is (at least for most people) the place where the most schedule clashing occurs. (Cable shows tend to be repeated during the week.)

Edit: CuriousMark posted while I was typing.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

Gmta. __


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## AwardBlvr (Nov 21, 2004)

Interesting folks..

You are correct... Locally broadcast signals will still remain in cable as analog (Comcast converts these from Digital to Analog and transmits them as analog in the line) (I think that's an FCC mandate for cable for a period of time... 1 year???)

So, let me see if we can understand your proposed model...



Continue to use 1 tuner internally as the receiver for those signals which remain analog.

Use a DTV converter box for the remaining channels.
*Does the Series 2 TiVo interface have the ability to support such a split personality? * IE, Can I say... "for tuner #2, send an IR command (or whatever interface) to the Comcast DTV converter and have TiVo record from the Composite or S-Video input anything that comes from the DTV converter???


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

AwardBlvr said:


> Interesting folks..
> 
> You are correct... Locally broadcast signals will still remain in cable as analog (Comcast converts these from Digital to Analog and transmits them as analog in the line) (I think that's an FCC mandate for cable for a period of time... 1 year???)
> 
> ...


If you are using a cable box now for digital channels you will continue to use the same cable box. If you were analog only you will need a DTA or cable box. I don't know if there are issues running a DTA, if so, a cable box would be preferable.

Keep in mind that a cable DTA is NOT the same as an over the air DTV converter. This thread has nothing to do with DTV converters, that is a completely different discussion and has nothing to do with cable.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

AwardBlvr said:


> I
> *Does the Series 2 TiVo interface have the ability to support such a split personality? * IE, Can I say... "for tuner #2, send an IR command (or whatever interface) to the Comcast DTV converter and have TiVo record from the Composite or S-Video input anything that comes from the DTV converter???


yes, it does. The input on the back of the TiVo that supports output from a cable box is not tied to just one tuner. Either tuner can use it.

You will get guide data for how you set things up channel wise and just use it, which tuner is transparent to you.

I have a DT with a cable box and all my channels are broadcast in both analog and digital for now. (TWC)
I have most all the extended basic channels set to get th analog version. I have 64 Sci-Fi set to get digital (cable box) and of course nay of the higher channels that only come digital.

I simply look for and tell it to record shows and the Tivo will still tell me if I have a conflict or not. So recording 64 and say 225 at the same time will give me a conflict but recording 64 and 6 (analog) will not give me a conflict


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## AwardBlvr (Nov 21, 2004)

CuriousMark said:


> If you are using a cable box now for digital channels you will continue to use the same cable box. If you were analog only you will need a DTA or cable box. I don't know if there are issues running a DTA, if so, a cable box would be preferable.
> 
> Keep in mind that a cable DTA is NOT the same as an over the air DTV converter. This thread has nothing to do with DTV converters, that is a completely different discussion and has nothing to do with cable.


OK Mark... Sorry... I mean DTA... But I assume this is basically a receiver which takes Comcast Digital and produces a Composite/Svideo + Audio of whatever single channel you select? So this still would disable the second tuner channel, unless the signals which are cable as analog could be received by the Tivo Series 2 and recorded there???

Currently I directly connect the DT Series 2 Tivo directly to analog cable. I currently have no cable box of any kind.

So your answer is still a little unclear as to the options for maintaining Dual Tuner capability, or what Tivo might do in allowing me to transition my DT Lifetime Subscription to a newer model.

Thanks so far.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

AwardBlvr said:


> OK Mark... Sorry... I mean DTA... But I assume this is basically a receiver which takes Comcast Digital and produces a Composite/Svideo + Audio of whatever single channel you select? So this still would disable the second tuner channel, unless the signals which are cable as analog could be received by the Tivo Series 2 and recorded there???


Yes, it will be the BOX in your channel lineup. As far as the DVR is concerned, it is a cable box. But at least some, if not all DTA adapters only provides RF out, so you will need a demodulator to convert to composite/s-video + Audio. That is why using a cable box which already has those outputs is easier. The second tuner will then get the RF from the cable, split before going into the DTA, and feed the second tuner.



> Currently I directly connect the DT Series 2 Tivo directly to analog cable. I currently have no cable box of any kind.
> 
> So your answer is still a little unclear as to the options for maintaining Dual Tuner capability,


For your situation using a real cable box, instead of a DTA would be least confusing. There is a thread, linked above that discusses using an old VCR as a demodulator that along with a DTA will give you what you need at the lowest cost. In either case, you split the cable upstream of the cable box or DTA and run one branch directly to the DVR and the other to the DTA/Cable box. Since the cable goes into the DVR RF input, the DTA or cable box must feed the cable box inputs of the DVR (S-video + Audio).



> or what Tivo might do in allowing me to transition my DT Lifetime Subscription to a newer model.


I am not aware of any current options to transfer a lifetime subscription. Check the TiVo website and watch for such an offer. They provided it when the HD units first came out, so perhaps they will do so again at some point.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

None of this is ever going to exist or happen,but ...

...The only way you will be able to tune two non-analog channels at once is either 1) with a single box which outputs one channel to DT's AV inputs and another channel to its RF or 2) two separate boxes (that use completely different IR codes so the DT could operate them both safely...and probably some sort of IR device to send signal both boxes...) one feeding the AV input and the other the RF input.

In case two, in theory one box could be an OTA tuner allowing one cable and one OTA recording at a time.

In another theory, TiVo could support an external OTA dual tuner that transmitted both channels via RF or one by RF and the other AV for two OTA recordings.

Another possibility would be if the cable co provided dual tuner boxes or boxes with IR code settings just like you can have two TiVos in the same room.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

Berkshires,
He is still going to have some analogs, so it will continue to work normally. He will have FEWER analogs, so that is not the best, but it is also not the end of usefulness of his DVR either.

The only wrinkle is that he is asking to use a DTA instead of a cable box, presumably because the DTA will be given to him for free.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

Another crackpot idea that would never happen would be a box that _encodes _up to the DT's highest playback level (probably 480p60) and feeds the DT via the USB port.


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## CraigK (Jun 9, 2006)

AwardBlvr said:


> OK Mark... Sorry... I mean DTA... But I assume this is basically a receiver which takes Comcast Digital and produces a Composite/Svideo + Audio of whatever single channel you select? So this still would disable the second tuner channel, unless the signals which are cable as analog could be received by the Tivo Series 2 and recorded there???


Comcast should supply you with a regular set-top box as well as two of the simpiler DTAs. As it stands now you should use the regular set-top box (with the composite out to the TiVo) as well as RF in to the Tivo from cable. This will allow you to record two of the remaining analog channels at once or one of the remaining analog plus one digital through the set-top box. You'll have to set up an IR cable so the TiVo can control the set-top box and rerun guided setup to let the TiVo know you're not all analog with no box.

If you go to the TiVo.com support area under "Set Up My DVR" there's a section called "How Do I Set Up My Dual Tuner DVR with a Cable Box?" that gives you an idea of what to do.

The simple DTAs only have RF out so it's problamatic trying to get those to work on the dual tuners.

edit: I see CuriousMark answered this all.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

How is the DT supposed to control *both *boxes???


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

berkshires said:


> How is the DT supposed to control *both *boxes???


It doesn't, there is ONLY ONE BOX. There is another thread, talking about what you are, but in this thread we are talking about taking a DT that had only RF cable input and adding a cable box, from a total of zero to a total of one. However, the wrinkle is that the cable box being considered was a DTA. Not the best solution, since a cable box is easier to use for this purpose.

The thread linked above is the one where someone is trying to control two boxes.


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## CraigK (Jun 9, 2006)

CuriousMark said:


> The thread linked above is the one where someone is trying to control two boxes.


That was my fault for posting that link and getting off track.

Like you stated, the easiest solution is to use a real cable box for the digital portion. The article in the San Jose Mercury says they'll give you one of those free as well as two DTAs. The original poster should make sure he gets a real box. I believe you can either call Comcast or go to one of their stores and get a self-install kit. I called Comcast on an unrelated problem the other day and during the call they offered to send me the DTAs I needed (I already have one real cable box).


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

If you have a device that only does RF output, you can demodulate (tune) it back to composite. The easiest way is probably with an old VCR. (It would have to be on, but not recording, so it wouldn't need a tape, and probably wouldn't draw too much power.)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

AwardBlvr said:


> So your answer is still a little unclear as to the options for maintaining Dual Tuner capability, or what Tivo might do in allowing me to transition my DT Lifetime Subscription to a newer model.
> 
> Thanks so far.


yes, the other posters went off into a threoretical debate on things to get two signals to a DT. 

the short answer is what you had in the first few posts.
For the digital channels you will have one feed to the DT and it has the IR blaster to control it. the cable box will be supported by TiVo and likely the digital converter box would be as well but you need to verify that. best to get the cable box. Keep the coax cable hooked up like you have it now and any analog channels left will be found and can be recorded at the same time as one digital signal or two analog channels can be recorded at the same time if no digital is being recorded.

at some points in time TiVo has offered lifetime transfer deals to go from series 2 to series 3. Currently no such offer is in place. there may be something next year when the OTA stuff transitions but that is total guessing on my part. The deal is typically 199$ to transfer to hardware you bought somewhere else and you get a free year on the old series 2 box.

You might be better off seeing if you can sell the DT for 300$ or so.


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## AwardBlvr (Nov 21, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> If you have a device that only does RF output, you can demodulate (tune) it back to composite. The easiest way is probably with an old VCR. (It would have to be on, but not recording, so it wouldn't need a tape, and probably wouldn't draw too much power.)


Thanks for the many responses.

However, I would like to represent the average consumer who wants to keep it simple, and avoid deploying VCR's ad modulatoirs, separate modulators/demodulators, etc. I have to keep this as a family-friendly process and I would like everything controllable form the one TiVo remote. Having extra, especially remote controllable devices in-line (which are not controlled by TiVo) is not where I (or the average consumer) wants to go.

So lets focus our discussion on the integrated solution. I STILL have not seen anyone answer *whether TiVo can control two DTA's or Cable boxes (or a mix) in a completely integrated way from the TiVo embedded software.*

Please advise on this.

Thanks

-A


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

AwardBlvr said:


> So lets focus our discussion on the integrated solution. I STILL have not seen anyone answer *whether TiVo can control two DTA's or Cable boxes (or a mix) in a completely integrated way from the TiVo embedded software.*


That is what I thought you wanted, so the point of what I was saying is that the DT can't control two at this point, and there is no such thing in existence - nor likely, nor an external dual tuner box - which will get you two digitals at once.

If you want to represent the average consumer...get a TiVoHD with CableCard(s)  Try to wait for one of those $200 LT transfer deals, or pay $100 more for the THD's own lifetime. Sell the DT to someone or give it as a gift.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

AwardBlvr said:


> I STILL have not seen anyone answer *whether TiVo can control two DTA's or Cable boxes (or a mix) in a completely integrated way from the TiVo embedded software.*


because there is no way to do that, period.

for easily recording 2 digiotal channels with one device the TiVo HD with cable cards or the cable company DVR are your mainstream viable choices


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

> http://picasaweb.google.com/virgegx/ComcastDTAUnboxing
> 
> Some areas are going all digital and are using DTA's. Just a basic box that has no composite input which would have added very little and had better PQ. This DTA does have IR support for older Series 2 models. Now your IR enabled Series 2 can still record those digital channels. *DT models can only record a 2nd limited basic channel since limited basic is the only analog tier under this new measure*. Just a basic little box that might just work on the older Tivo models.


 .


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## AwardBlvr (Nov 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> because there is no way to do that, period.
> 
> for easily recording 2 digiotal channels with one device the TiVo HD with cable cards or the cable company DVR are your mainstream viable choices


*Damn!*

Comcast stinks.

-A


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

AwardBlvr said:


> *Damn!*
> 
> Comcast stinks.
> 
> -A


sorry. BTW - welcome to the forums.


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## CraigK (Jun 9, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> for easily recording 2 digital channels with one device the TiVo HD with cable cards or the cable company DVR are your mainstream viable choices


This is the reason we recently got a TiVo HD w/cablecard in anticipation of the Comcast change. It's in the family room and is the one my wife uses. It's simple to use - the TiVo remote controls the TV also - and I don't have to explain anything. It's less of a headache for me (no "tech support" questions I have to answer). The cost of our old Comcast analog service is the same as digital starter. We have the additional cost of the new Tivo HD, but it's worth it.

I have the S2DT to play with and can already tell that I made the right decision. Someday if they offer a lifetime transfer, I'd like to get another TiVo HD.


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## AwardBlvr (Nov 21, 2004)

OK Followed up with Tivo today.

They *promise* that because I purchased before 2000, that I CAN do a _Product Lifetime Subscription_ transfer to a new box.

So... Looks like I'll have to bite the bullet and buy a new TiVo... I guess I can probably use the same Seagate 750 Gb drive (purchased through Weaknees) and use the MFS Tools stuff to expand the capacity of a new HD TiVo. (and put my original drive back in the Series 2, before I shelve it.

Any advice welcomed here, though I know this is not part of my original thread, so feel free to ignore.

Thanks to All!

-Andrew


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

You sure got in early on that DT. 

The DT uses PATA and the THD uses SATA. The drives are not the same. And you would lose your recordings even if...


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

AwardBlvr said:


> However, I would like to represent the average consumer who wants to keep it simple, and avoid deploying VCR's ad modulators, separate modulators/demodulators, etc. I have to keep this as a family-friendly process and I would like everything controllable form the one TiVo remote. Having extra, especially remote controllable devices in-line (which are not controlled by TiVo) is not where I (or the average consumer) wants to go.


Since you got good answers on the last part of your post, I thought I would weigh back in on this part.

A DT with a cable company full feature cable box is the most common way a DT is used. It is considered a user friendly option, and is pretty simple to set up. Everything is controllable from the TiVo remote. As a matter of fact, it is best that you hide the cable remote after setting it up this way. You simply won't need it unless you want to do PPV. The TiVo will control the cable box via IR blasters or on some cable boxes via a serial control link. There is no need for demodulators or VCRs when you set it up this way. Yes, the cable box is in-line with the TiVo, but you will not really even know it is there anymore once setup is complete. You will still have dual tuner capability on basic channels, which is likely to work for most things you are likely to want to record.

Still, even with all that said, the HD TiVo is simpler still and has no limitations on dual tuner recording at all.

Back in 2000 the only DVR sold by TiVo was the Series 1. Series 2's didn't' come out until later and the DT until only a few years ago. If you have an old pre-2000 Series 1, you can do a lifetime transfer with it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

AwardBlvr said:


> OK Followed up with Tivo today.
> 
> They *promise* that because I purchased before 2000, that I CAN do a _Product Lifetime Subscription_ transfer to a new box.


Impossible! The S2DT did not even exist until a couple years ago. It's possible that the original lifetime service came from a S1 TiVo that was sold before 2000, but if that's the case then you took advantage of your one time transfer when you moved it to the S2DT.

One option you do have is to simply buy a new TiVoHD with lifetime (if you're an existing customer you can get lifetime on a new box for $399) then sell your S2DT with lifetime on ebay. Boxes with lifetime get a pretty fair price on ebay, so you should be able to recoupe a good chunk of the cost of the new unit by selling your old one.

Dan


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## AwardBlvr (Nov 21, 2004)

berkshires said:


> You sure got in early on that DT.
> 
> The DT uses PATA and the THD uses SATA. The drives are not the same. And you would lose your recordings even if...


Right

But the HDD from Weaknees is a SATA with an PATA adapter which can easily be removed.

So... now what do ya think? (Are the drives otherwise the same??? (I know I can go look it up on Weaknees.))

AND BTW, when I did the transfer, it was SOOOO easy. I used an old LAPTOP and bought a couple cheap $9 USB to IDE adapter (now $14)(But they have SATA ones also... No drivers required and works find under XP Pro, and WinMFS and Just let it go... Sooooo easy. Saved all my original recordings, configs, Season Passes, etc.

Anyway.. Thanks again!


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## AwardBlvr (Nov 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Impossible! The S2DT did not even exist until a couple years ago. It's possible that the original lifetime service came from a S1 TiVo that was sold before 2000, but if that's the case then you took advantage of your one time transfer when you moved it to the S2DT.
> Dan


Well I left OUT the detail that I DID do that one-time upgrade from a series 1 to the series 2, But I called Tivo today, they looked at my account and said "*yep... You eligible...*" and gave me a case # with that statement in it.

Soooo... Any comments now? (BTW, you were sharp in catching this little detail!)

-Andrew


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The CSR you spoke to was wrong! You may get lucky and they may be able to push the transfer through, but I wouldn't count on it if I were you. And if you do get it to happen then count your lucky stars and enjoy your new TiVoHD. 

Dan


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

AwardBlvr said:


> However, I would like to represent the average consumer who wants to keep it simple, and avoid deploying VCR's ad modulatoirs, separate modulators/demodulators, etc. I have to keep this as a family-friendly process and I would like everything controllable form the one TiVo remote.


The VCR in this case would just be left on, tuned to channel 3. You'd never use its remote. The "DTA" would be controlled by the TiVo. It's perfectly simple. Cheap, too.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

Now I think you do have a SATA drive that will work perfectly well in a THD, however you can not just copy the recordings as they will not be accessible by any other TiVo. Furthermore, you probably have to copy from the new THD drive (160GB) to the SATA750 in order to get the right OS, etal. for the THD onto the 750; unless you have that up your sleeve some other way.

I also think it was an important detail that you had already used your ONE TIME transfer - and that you even had a one time transfer now or in the past to exercise. If TiVo lets you do it a second time, that is outside their standard policy, and I hope they really let you and you enjoy a new THD.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

BTW, I couldn't find this article on sjmercury.com, searching for comcast.


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## AwardBlvr (Nov 21, 2004)

mattack said:


> BTW, I couldn't find this article on sjmercury.com, searching for comcast.


OK... now that I've done a bazillion posts today... lete me see if this link comes through.

*The SJ Merc article is HERE.
*
-Andrew


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## CraigK (Jun 9, 2006)

mattack said:


> BTW, I couldn't find this article on sjmercury.com, searching for comcast.


http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_11594570


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

FYI: If you do get this new unit you can transfer all your recordings in the first couple of days if you network them together and simply pull the recordings over via the Multi-Room Viewing feature. Since both TiVos will be on the same account for a short time this should work.

Another option is to transfer the recordings from the S2DT to a PC using TiVoToGo, then transfer them back to the new unit. Since both units will definitely have the same MAK this should work for sure. Although it's possible that some recordings could be blocked from being transferred via TTG, so you may not be able to get everything this way.

Dan


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> FYI: If you do get this new unit you can transfer all your recordings in the first couple of days if you network them together and simply pull the recordings over via the Multi-Room Viewing feature. Since both TiVos will be on the same account for a short time this should work.
> 
> Another option is to transfer the recordings from the S2DT to a PC using TiVoToGo, then transfer them back to the new unit. Since both units will definitely have the same MAK this should work for sure. Although it's possible that some recordings could be blocked from being transferred via TTG, so you may not be able to get everything this way.
> 
> Dan


These are the ways to do it, but with MRV he has to go from a 750 to a 160, so a PC may be necessary, and even that not sufficient: depending on how much space he has, he might have to delete shows transfered to transfer additional shows as he goes along.* Also I can't think of any DT recordings that would be flagged for MRV/TTG purposes, so they'll probably all be elligible.

Also transfer times will be very significant - 3-4GB/hr perhaps - meaning on 700GB ~200hr (double that for each transfer to PC then back to THD, allowing for TTG being slower than MRV)

Even a copy to a new 750GB drive will take a long time with those USB-SATA adapteres - maybe 15-25hrs. After doing a 400GB recently, I swore I would never do anything more than the 500GB drives I still have without going all SATA.

* he might need to transfer 160GB to the THD drive, then the rest to the PC, upgrade 160->750 and transfer the 750-160=590 remaining GB from the PC.

*** Also do not complete your Lifetime transfer before you transfer your shows, or you'll be cut off as soon as the old TiVo connects to the TiVo service.


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## timstack8969 (May 14, 2004)

Here is the Comcast web site about the DTA's

http://www.comcast.com/digitalnow/


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Although it's possible that some recordings could be blocked from being transferred via TTG, so you may not be able to get everything this way.


Just to clarify, the same applies to MRV. TiVo has not separated the permissions for MRV and TTG, TTBOMK -- it's both or neither.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

AwardBlvr said:


> I would like to represent the average consumer who wants to keep it simple, and avoid deploying VCR's as modulatoirs, separate modulators/demodulators, etc. I have to keep this as a family-friendly process and I would like everything controllable form the one TiVo remote. Having extra, especially remote controllable devices in-line (which are not controlled by TiVo) is not where I (or the average consumer) wants to go.
> 
> So lets focus our discussion on the integrated solution. I STILL have not seen anyone answer *whether TiVo can control two DTA's or Cable boxes (or a mix) in a completely integrated way from the TiVo embedded software.*


Connecting a VCR is about as simple as anything is these days. If you want to save money by using a DTA in conjuction with an S2DT and retain standard-def dual tuner functionality employing a VCR demodulator is as cheap and simple as it gets.

You don't need to control the VCR at all, just leave it on tuned to channel 3 and let TiVo control the DTA.

Since testing an S2DT for full functionality with a DTA is of higher priority, I'm going to swap out the unsubbed S2 I've been testing (for its continued ability to record manually), and replace it with the S2DT to verify dual tuner functionality. Will post again in an hour or two!

For ultimate simplicity, get a HDTiVo and use it with an 'M' CableCARD. For ultimate low cost with reasonable simplicity, stay tuned!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

AwardBlvr said:


> SO HOW CAN I SUPPORT MY LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION, Dual Tuner TiVo habit?


Your best bet may be to sell your current TiVo, and purchase a new TiVo HD.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> I'm going to swap out the unsubbed S2 I've been testing (for its continued ability to record manually), and replace it with the S2DT to verify dual tuner functionality. Will post again in an hour or two!


Just for the record, as of right now the unsubbed S2 still records manually after not connecting with TiVo for over a year! The clock is off by 10 mins.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> Connecting a VCR is about as simple as anything is these days. If you want to save money by using a DTA in conjuction with an S2DT and retain standard-def dual tuner functionality employing a VCR demodulator is as cheap and simple as it gets.
> 
> You don't need to control the VCR at all, just leave it on tuned to channel 3 and let TiVo control the DTA.
> 
> For ultimate low cost with reasonable simplicity, stay tuned!


Once again, SUCCESS!!

The S2DT is still in Guided Setup connecting to TiVo for the second time to download EPG data, but it passed the DTA tuning tests uneventfully using the code for _Comcast Digital Adapter_ sent to Pace's DTA IR extender. Per previous experience, I didn't attempt to use the DTA's internal IR receiver next to the green LED:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7037357#post7037357

Since the DTA doesn't tune Channel 1 but does display digits of tuning commands as they're received, I selected the TiVo option confirming success when attempting to tune to Channel 1.

I'll post again after Guided Setup has completed, but it appears that TiVo's S2DT offers full dual-tuner functionality when used with a DTA through a demodulator such as an old VCR.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

berkshires said:


> Also I can't think of any DT recordings that would be flagged for MRV/TTG purposes, so they'll probably all be elligible.


Actually TiVo does support an analog protection scheme created by Macrovision on the S2 units. It's usually only used for PPV, and in some areas premium channels like HBO, ShowTime, etc..., but it is available so it's possible for him to run into something that's protected.



wmcbrine said:


> Just to clarify, the same applies to MRV. TiVo has not separated the permissions for MRV and TTG, TTBOMK -- it's both or neither.


I thought there was a flag that allowed MRV but not TTG? Perhaps it's one of the CableCARD flags and only applies to S3/TiVoHD units? Or maybe I'm just mistaken? 

Dan


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Actually TiVo does support an analog protection scheme created by Macrovision on the S2 units. It's usually only used for PPV, and in some areas premium channels like HBO, ShowTime, etc..., but it is available so it's possible for him to run into something that's protected.
> 
> I thought there was a flag that allowed MRV but not TTG? Perhaps it's one of the CableCARD flags and only applies to S3/TiVoHD units? Or maybe I'm just mistaken?
> 
> Dan


No there really isn't any special flag for TiVo at this time. Hopefully you are mistaken because you heard some internal thing from TiVo that they are negotiating such a thing which you are not allowed to disclose. 

As I remember TiVo announced an agreement and support for the newer Macrovision around the same era the DT came out. I've never seen the analog flag used, nor seen anyone complain here that 'hey my analog recording won't transfer, or whatever, so TiVo sucks and I'm dropping TiVo and getting a Betamax' which for sure we would if any significant number of times it happend


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> I'll post again after Guided Setup has completed, but it appears that TiVo's S2DT offers full dual-tuner functionality when used with a DTA through a demodulator such as an old VCR.


It does indeed!

In my location Comcast's free DTA currently receives some extra channels that are normally only available from a digital DTB incurring an 'additional outlet fee'. Presumably they will disappear after Comcast completes its digital cutover.

Currently analog channels 2 through 78 are avaliable with a full digital simulcast through the DTA, plus a number of standard-def subchannels from digital OTA broadcasts, and even a few 'secret' channels.

Comcast may delay its digital cutover if the OTA conversion is delayed.

Eventually, in my area, an S2DT will probably receive Chs. 2 through 28 through its analog tuner(s) plus Chs. 2 through 78 through the DTA. Not bad!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> I thought there was a flag that allowed MRV but not TTG? Perhaps it's one of the CableCARD flags and only applies to S3/TiVoHD units? Or maybe I'm just mistaken?
> 
> Dan


I know of no such flag *in use* for differentiating MRV from TTG. Posters have certainly asked for such a differentiation and it makes a certain logic that some premium show can can be copied around to the users TiVo DVRs so long as they can not copy it off to a PC.

of course we all missed an obvious option for the user till it just hit me --
he can stop service on his current DVR but he can playback any show still on the DVR. Might be easiest to just get a new HD for the new box and then keep the other DVR hooked up to the side


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

fallingwater said:


> It does indeed!


I am somewhat unclear here

are you saying

a DTA can be used to record 2 digital channels at the same time on a S2DT?


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

No. S2DT doesn't have the capability to record two digital channels at the same time. 

An interesting thing about Comcast in this area is that it apparently provides the same analog and digital signal line-up throughout western Washington State from the Canadian border to Olympia. Specific locations have slightly different channel line-ups but a DTA receives the entire Extended Basic line-up. The same is true of an unscrambled QAM hi-def tuner. Both provide a few 'secret' channels. After Comcast's digital cutover, channel availability may become more restricted or standardized.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> No. S2DT doesn't have the capability to record two digital channels at the same time.


If TiVo supported a configuration of sending IR to two different boxes (with distinct IR codes) at a time, it could. Is this too much to ask, or is it going to be the case where the DTA and the cable box are going to use similar IR codes in most cases so why bother? What about supporting an ATSC tuner with completely different IR code to get a second channel OTA?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

berkshires said:


> If TiVo supported a configuration of sending IR to two different boxes (with distinct IR codes) at a time, it could. Is this too much to ask, or is it going to be the case where the DTA and the cable box are going to use similar IR codes in most cases so why bother? What about supporting an ATSC tuner with completely different IR code to get a second channel OTA?


that would require a major rewrite of the code to do. TiVo, I think, would rather sell series 3 boxes that record combos around 2 digital/analog cable/OTA already without any IR madness.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

I said repeatedly in my earlier comments that none of this will ever happen, and then I broke down and said 'is this too much too ask?' in a moment of weakness.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

berkshires said:


> I broke down and said 'is this too much too ask?' in a moment of weakness.




I had my "moment of hope" in trying to make fallingwater's posts sound to me like you could grab 2 digital sources. I understand where you are coming from.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> S2DT doesn't have the capability to record two digital channels at the same time.


Actually, after thinking about it, my above statement is not true.

When a DTA is used with a demodulator through S2DT's line input, S2DT can control it and record from it as from any other STB.

If at the same time a second DTA is inserted into S2DT's coax input from the wall and S2DT's analog lineup except Chan. 3 (or 4) is deleted from the channel settings, S2DT will record manually from the DTA on the coax input.

Automatic recording, with all of TiVo's features, is then unavailable from S2DT's analog tuners. However normal TiVo recording remains available from the DTA on the line input while the other DTA supplies a back-up digital source for manually recording whenever a conflict exists between programs in the entire Extended Basic lineup.

It's not an option most viewers may choose, but definitely possible! As a side benefit the quality of a recording sourced from a DTA is often better than a straight analog feed through S2DT's tuners.

A similiar technique can be used in conjuction with HDTiVo used without CableCARDs by splitting the coax from the wall and inserting a standard Comcast digital STB between the splitter and HDTiVo's antenna input. Delete all OTA channels from the lineup except Chan. 3 (or 4) and HDTiVo can manually record in decent standard-def quality from channels which otherwise wouldn't be available. Comcast accounts provide a digital STB at no extra charge while charging an 'additional outlet fee' (in my area, $5.20 mo.) for HDTiVo used with a CableCARD.

These are tough times financially for many people and not all TiVo users are immune.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

I am a little confused with all of the talk of trying to use two DTAs with the S2DT. Why wouldn't the following scenario work.

For those areas where Comcast is still providing some channels in analog (in most cases that is channels 2-30) set it up as follows:

Cable from the wall split, one end into the DTA and the other directly into the TiVo. Connect the DTA RF-output into a demodulator (old VCR) RF-input, and then from demodulator to TiVo with composite cables.

Run Guided Setup telling TiVo cable with box and then select channels 2-30 as CBL and 31-99 as BOX.

Dual tuning is still maintained (although on a fewer number of channels).


Edit: OK fallingwater, after re-reading some posts I see that you have done this. Everything work fine? Any problems in Guided Setup selecting the box (Pace?)?


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

jrm01 said:


> I am a little confused with all of the talk of trying to use two DTAs with the S2DT. Why wouldn't the following scenario work.
> 
> For those areas where Comcast is still providing some channels in analog (in most cases that is channels 2-30) set it up as follows:
> 
> ...


For most users, using S2DT's internal tuners plus a single DTA through a demodulator (such as a DVR) into S2DT's line input would be the easiest option. But for maximum dual tuning flexibility, when selecting channels set the DTA for all Extended Basic channels it receives and S2DT's internal tuners for all analog channels they receive. After Comcast's digital cutover S2DT's internal tuner channel range can be reduced.



> Edit: OK fallingwater, after re-reading some posts I see that you have done this. Everything work fine? Any problems in Guided Setup selecting the box (Pace?)?


Guided Setup and/or the Channel Changing page both offer _Comcast Digital Adapter_ directly as a tuning source. It appears to use IR code 10104 set at medium speed (B). Pace is also offered as a tuning source but Pace cable boxes don't use the same IR code as the DTA.

The BIG problem I encountered, for which I don't have an explanation, is that the IR receiver in the DTA did NOT work with TiVo's IR blasters although it works perfectly with the DTA remote control. However the DTA's supplied IR extender (designed for use when a DTA is hidden in a cabinet or behind another component) works perfectly with either TiVo's IR blasters or the DTA's remote control. Both the DTA's internal IR receiver and the IR extender can be used simultaneously. Go figure!


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> The BIG problem I encountered, for which I don't have an explanation, is that the IR receiver in the DTA did NOT work with TiVo's IR blasters although it works perfectly with the DTA remote control. However the DTA's supplied IR extender (designed for use when a DTA is hidden in a cabinet or behind another component) works perfectly with either TiVo's IR blasters or the DTA's remote control. Both the DTA's internal IR receiver and the IR extender can be used simultaneously. Go figure!


It figured that there was a plausible explanation which hadn't been checked out!

It turns out that when TiVo's IR blasters are placed directly over the DTA's IR receiver they grossly overload it. Even placing them six inches away doesn't work. *But when placed three feet away or ten feet across the room they work fine!!!!* Practically speaking, using a DTA's included IR extender is a better solution, but the mystery of controling Pace's DTA through its IR receiver has been solved.


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## yukit (Jul 23, 2005)

So I think I have three options:

1. Keep using the S2DT with a DTA
With some workaround (thanks to fallingwater) we can use a DTA to get the extended channels for one of the tuners. This isn't ideal, but may work for most people. I need to check the Season Pass for overlaps in FoodTV, TLC, Toons, ComedyCentral, etc since I cannot record both of these at the same time.

2. Get a TivoHD with a CableCard
I can upgrade the S2DT with a TivoHD, still keep my MSD. I have a TivoHD already, so I know that it works really well once you get a CableCard paired. 
The down side is obviously the initial cost of acquiring a TivoHD (+ drive upgrade) & ~$10 extra on the Comcast bill ($7 DAO + $2 CableCard)
I should start looking for a TivoHD deals. Maybe Tivo may even offer one.

3. Switch to a Comcast DVR
I had not considered this option till my coworker mentioned it. I get the full benefit of On-Demand feature as well, but no MRV.


Have I missed other options to consider?

I will start with option 1, but probably switch to 2 or 3 once the limitation becomes too much of a hassle. I already picked up a DTA from a local Comcast office to play with. They could not tell me exactly when the switch will occur in my area, but they were definitely sure it will happen this year.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

If you want hi-def buy a HDTiVo and use it for a month. You have up to 30 days to return it for a full refund with no further obligation. You can also get a Comcast hi-def DVR. Comcast rents DVR's by the month with no further obligation.

If you rent Comcast's DVR at the same time you evaluate HDTiVo (with an 'M' CableCARD), the only fair way to compare the DVRs' very different operational philosophies, Comcast will charge an 'Additional Outlet Fee' for the second DVR.

Either DVR will provide you with a *kick-ask*-me no-questions picture if you have a hi-def TV!


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## yukit (Jul 23, 2005)

fallingwater said:


> Either DVR will provide you with a *kick-ask*-me no-questions picture if you have a hi-def TV!


I already have a TivoHD with a 52" hi-def TV in another room, so I know how great it looks. It is a *kick-ask* 

My DT is connected to an old 32" CRT TV. I am not in a rush to get a new TV till it breaks or we move. I am not quite ready to stimulate our economy yet.

I am realizing that gadgets with analog tuner only devices like Slingbox & TV tuner for PCs will be affected by this change. The upside is that devices with a QAM tuner will get a lot more channels. This change is actually a lot more significant than the DTV switch.


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## Spinniker (Oct 3, 2005)

Well, I finally got my S2ST to work using the blaster trick and the Pace trick. But I am really bummed at the thought of not being able to watch something (else) while recording on the TiVo. I work nights and the stuff I record is on at the same time as the wife's, who use to just watch her's real time.


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

Spinniker said:


> Well, I finally got my S2ST to work using the blaster trick and the Pace trick. But I am really bummed at the thought of not being able to watch something (else) while recording on the TiVo. I work nights and the stuff I record is on at the same time as the wife's, who use to just watch her's real time.


With the regular cable box (not the DTA) you should be able to record/watch 2 channels at a time. I set up my Mom's S2 DT with the full cable box (free from Comcast in the Seattle area) and it's working for her.


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