# Looks like the Nero/TiVo product is out



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/29/nero-liquidtv-tivo-pc-brings-tivo-interface-to-the-pc/

Looks pretty cool. I was thinking about getting an additional TiVoHD to record a few conflicting shows I can't get on my two S3 units. However if this has some way of remapping in the clear QAM channels to the appropriate guide data and allows me to use my existing TiVo remote then I may just pickup a copy of the software only version instead. (I don't really want to rent 2 more CableCARDs just to record lcoal channels anyway)

Dan


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Cablecard tuners for a PC will cost you about $300 apiece, plus the monthly fee to rent the cablecard. PVR apps already exist for PCs that cost you zero in monthly fees for guide data, so why would anyone in their right mind want to pay for a service they can already get for free? Many PVR apps actually have a better UI than Tivo's so paying for a worse interface doesn't seem like such a great deal, IMHO.

Obviously, this is a product aimed at existing Tivo users that have not ventured into the world of HTPCs and are therefore ignorant to what's currently available. I have an HTPC with six ATSC tuners and access to 14 OTA HD locals. I can record up to six channels at once and play back a 7th recorded show from the hard drive. I pay absolutely nothing for the guide data and the PVR software cost me far less than the Nero/Tivo software (I got it for $50 with a $50 rebate for a net cost of $0). I currently use BeyondTV as my PVR app but there are others out there, including several freeware packages. Vista Home Media Center includes its own PVR utility, IIRC. I have my HTPC setup so it works with my Harmony 880 remote, but it can be set up to work with any remote, including the Tivo peanut, if you really feel the need.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Any chance this supports MRV?


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

you can not get cable card tuners for PC's unless they are OEM'd and certified from the PC manufacturer. Only new "special" PC's will be able to use cable cards

http://msmvps.com/blogs/chrisl/archive/2007/06/10/954764.aspx


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SullyND said:


> Any chance this supports MRV?


ys, it will make the PC look like any other TiVo on your network. Of course desktop does that close enough for me. 

Like Dan said - if it maps clear QAM and lets you easily set recordings and then MRV to a TiVo on the TV then there is some value in that.

I imagine though you could record in the clear QAM with some of the freeware apps out there and then push/pull those to the TiVo without this.

I have TiVo DVRs cause I like an appliance doing such work versus having it on my general purpose PCs. This will nicely muddle up all those threads on "have second TV but do not want a second TiVo"


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Surprised*
that this ever released. $99.00US fee per year for guide data seems rather pricey when compared to the rest of the TVonPC competition...


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## pvanb (May 21, 2007)

Is this a possible solution for Canadians wanting to use TiVo with HD broadcasts (where CableCard isn't available/supported?)


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

We're hoping it means that we get a European version with DVB-T compatibility in Europe next year... 

Since the demise of our shortlived PAL Thomson-made UK Series 1 Tivos we've had nothing available over here - and the S1 didn't support any of the multiroom or TivoToGo stuff either.

Tivo still has a great UI and is very user friendly for the non-PC aware.

Fingers crossed...


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Doesn't DirecTV have a box that attaches to a media PC..? Wonder if it would work with that...


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## NiteCourt (Mar 31, 2005)

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/09/29/another-tivo-service-no-one-wants/


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## Darrelpr (Mar 28, 2003)

Other than the familiar UI, what's the point in paying $100 for the software and another $13+ a month for the "service"? Vista already has Media Center and BeyondTV/Sage/Myth don't require monthly subscriptions.

Granted, the Tivo standalone boxes are dead-on reliable but you lose that advantage when you bring a PC into the mix.

What am I missing?


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## LADYBUGBLUE2002 (Sep 7, 2003)

pvanb said:


> Is this a possible solution for Canadians wanting to use TiVo with HD broadcasts (where CableCard isn't available/supported?)


I was wondering the same thing...anyone know?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Darrelpr said:


> Other than the familiar UI, what's the point in paying $100 for the software and another $13+ a month for the "service"? Vista already has Media Center and BeyondTV/Sage/Myth don't require monthly subscriptions.
> 
> Granted, the Tivo standalone boxes are dead-on reliable but you lose that advantage when you bring a PC into the mix.
> 
> What am I missing?


My guess is that you have your media center PC sitting there recording shows, and have the ability to immediately burn them to DVD or Blu Ray without have to tivo to go the shows to your PC first.

I can't think of that many people that would be willing to pay $12.99/mo for that though....


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

It does not sound like it is $12.99 a month. The first year is included and then it is $99 a year. I agree that I would not expect there to be a big market for this, but I think we really need to see a review of features before we will know.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

segaily said:


> It does not sound like it is $12.99 a month. The first year is included and then it is $99 a year. I agree that I would not expect there to be a big market for this, but I think we really need to see a review of features before we will know.


there is the rub, most of the other features like TiVoCast and Amazon and so forth that make a TiVo simple to use and a one stop interface are not there!? Sure you can do thos other ways on a PC but then why need TiVo software as others point out.

This basically looks like a way for NERO to add some realy good DVR software to their DVD software whihc is very cool. I think it would have been better though if they had just gotten guide data in some other way and eliminated the 99$ a year constant fee.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Only thing I can think of is that the guide data might be better than the competing free products. Otherwise I don't know how TiVo will sell this. Especially since cable and satellite HDTV can't be received on it.

Also, maybe they can sell this internationally?

If they integrated web video from any site here somehow and let users stream it from the PC to their regular TiVo units, it would be awesome and one of the few things that would make it interesting as a product.


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## grimbeaver (Jul 8, 2008)

if it supports clear qam count me in. i've got a htpc right now that i use for a lot of other stuff (hulu, netflix, internet video, etc). there are other pvr software out there but nothing as good as the tivo interface. i tried the tivo hd box by purchasing a refurb but after two doa boxes gave up.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Darrelpr said:


> Other than the familiar UI, what's the point in paying $100 for the software and another $13+ a month for the "service"? Vista already has Media Center and BeyondTV/Sage/Myth don't require monthly subscriptions.
> 
> Granted, the Tivo standalone boxes are dead-on reliable but you lose that advantage when you bring a PC into the mix.
> 
> What am I missing?





JJ said:


> *Surprised*
> that this ever released. $99.00US fee per year for guide data seems rather pricey when compared to the rest of the TVonPC competition...


aside from the reasons above (better guide date, access to new feauters like amazon) there's also gettgin actual customer support (assuming they have it)- constant upgrades to software and features- and the BIG ONE- why does ANYONE have a tivo when in ALMOST ALL cases it's cheaper to get from your cable or sat provider their in house box? Have OTA- there were some other choices at one time also- but they all went out of business and only tivo survived- no?

Of course it's the UI and the feature sets.

So there has been a market for that with stand alones and so I'm sure there will be a market for this. Will tivo be in 95% of homes- dont think so. But what's the harm here?

I'm certainly interested (not running to buy but I will count it as an option for sure). But I have some things I need to go learn-

can the "offical" cablecard pc's handle add on tuners? I think there are add on tuners for those official pc's.

If you can slap 4 tuners in a pc- can this tivo software handle that.

what's directv's PC tuner status?

will the tuning resolver/adapter work on a pc?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MickeS said:


> ...Otherwise I don't know how TiVo will sell this. Especially since cable and ...can't be received on it.
> ....


do we KNOW it wont work on the 'official' cablecard pc's?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Engadget got a fuzzy answer from nero about cablecards -


> "it should work if Windows recognizes it."


Hopefully it does.

Now to find out about the rest of my questions.

A four tuner tivo media center pc with blue ray might be the best of all worlds. Tivo with youtube and unbox and all it has, 4 tuners for those times when 2 tuners doesn't cut it for me. And then you could still get the "free" media center stuff if you need to. (and toss in a couple Directv tuners if they really do exist!)

(does media center work with blue ray- I don't even know?)

I need to find out more- but I was going to get a stand alone blue ray player this holiday season- maybe that's not the toy I want to buy anymore&#8230;


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

i wonder if you can "bring your own" tivo remote and PC Ir receiver with this, i have a few of those laying around.......


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i doubt it- the $99 price point I guess was picked for marketing reasons and is not becasue it has any basis at all in cost of goods. So getting rid of 7 dollars in cost for a remote and IR receiver is not likely going to get them to be bothered with keeping another SKU and making maybe a couple dollars more per sale.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> If you can slap 4 tuners in a pc- can this tivo software handle that.


yes- that was in one of the articles I read. that may actually be the selling point for analog cable and OTA then. Do the work of 2 DVRs for less than the cost of one.

only one cable Set top box can be used though.


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## LADYBUGBLUE2002 (Sep 7, 2003)

Does that mean with only one cable box you couldn't use dual or more tuners? How does four tuners help?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It appears that it works like the S2DT with regards to an external cable boxe. It has the ability to record up to 4 programs at once, but because of the IR blaster it can only control one external cable box. So it uses some sort of asymmetrical logic to decide what needs to be recorded with the cable box and what doesn't and only produces conflict messages if two or more programs require the cable box for the same time slot.

As for CableCARDs... I seriously doubt it supports them. I'm 99&#37; sure that even if you have a PC with CableCARD tuners those tuners are only recognized in Windows Media Center. I believe that MS had to make sure that the hardware drivers, OS and MCE software all worked in a very tight, locked down, state so that 3rd party programs could not be developed to capture the stream in an unprotected state. It was the only way they could get approval from Cable Labs.

That being said I still think this software has a lot of potential. Running on a PC opens the door for all sorts of cool things which are not possible on a real TiVo. For example transcoding HD to SD on the fly so that it can be MRVed to a S2 TiVo should be possible. Playback of additional formats, such as H.264, DivX, etc..., should be possible without the need to transcode like the current TiVo Desktop Plus software does. Dolby Digital mixing, which would allow the bee-doop sounds to work while playing an HD program, should be possible. Remote administration of the To Do list and Now Playing should be possible. Mixing tuners so you can record from both DirecTV and cable HD sources should be possible.

While this software may not be capable of doing these things right now, with a PCs power and flexibility behind it all of them are possible.

Dan


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

LADYBUGBLUE2002 said:


> Does that mean with only one cable box you couldn't use dual or more tuners? How does four tuners help?


that is the issue with all PC based recording setups. No way to get all the digital channels except from one cable box or else buy an expensive cable card enabled Media PC.

Typically home theater PCs are used to get OTA and if you live in an area where you can get a bunch of channels and then hook up basic cable as well then 4 tuners will record a lot of stuff without conflict.


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## Darrelpr (Mar 28, 2003)

I wonder if there will be a trial version of the software available? I'm willing to give it a look-see but no way will I pay $99 until I've had a chance to test it out in my mixed Tivo/VMC environment.


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## HookdOnTivonics (Aug 8, 2002)

I haven't seen anything that mentions the specifics of the "Tivo Service" associated with this new product, but doesn't the existing Tivo Service include software updates?

Maybe the $99/year is for guide data, support, *and* software updates. If that is the case, it may be more attractive.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

JJ said:


> *Surprised*
> that this ever released. $99.00US fee per year for guide data seems rather pricey when compared to the rest of the TVonPC competition...


Then get your guide data elsewhere then. You can probably get xml guide data dumps cheaper but what fun would that be?

Perhaps there is just a bit more than guide data here.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

This is the part that caught my eye:

Crave blog on CNet



> The other big advantage of the PC-based TiVo experience is DVD burning and portable device transfer. Yes, both of these features are available with standard TiVos with that company's TiVo To Go add-on software (and a compatible DVD-burning software package). But transferring the recordings over your home network and then transcoding them is a long and laborious process. The transcoding and compression phases still take time with Liquid TV. But because the recordings are already on the hard drive, things go a lot faster, and the processes can go on in the background as you continue to watch other recordings or live TV. (It's the closest thing to products like the Pioneer DVR-810H and Humax DRT800, which were among our favorite TiVo-powered set-top devices when
> they were first released.)


I have a newish computer with no video card, and an iPod which will do video, but no way to get any video on it. Both my current TiVos are Series 1 standalones.

This would be cheaper than getting another TiVo, and I could transfer stuff to the iPod. So yeah, this looks interesting.

Jan


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Aero 1 said:


> you can not get cable card tuners for PC's unless they are OEM'd and certified from the PC manufacturer. Only new "special" PC's will be able to use cable cards
> 
> http://msmvps.com/blogs/chrisl/archive/2007/06/10/954764.aspx


That was true until recently when Sony started selling the tuners by themselves. I just checked the Sony website and it appears that the tuner is no longer available for sale so it could have just been a glitch on their website with an erroneous listing. You are correct in that it requires a "special PC" in order to use the tuner. They are usually available only with an OEM PC but I believe you can purchase additional tuners if you already own one of the aforementioned HTPCs.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> You are correct in that it requires a "special PC" in order to use the tuner.


Exactly. The PC, as a complete system, would be CableLabs approved, as will the OCUR unit. That doesn't not mean it will have a CC tuner installed or included with the system, just that it is capable of using one.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

ah30k said:


> Perhaps there is just a bit more than guide data here.


Yes, it is also licensing the TiVo "look and feel", and the smart recording algorithms TiVo hardware DVR users have come to love.

If you choose not to pay Tivo for the privilege of using their IP, that is your right.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

murgatroyd said:


> This is the part that caught my eye:
> 
> I have a newish computer with no video card, and an iPod which will do video, but no way to get any video on it. Both my current TiVos are Series 1 standalones.
> 
> ...


It depends.

In theory, you can spend $99 on a Series. 2 DT (less for a used Series 2), and $99/year on service (if your Series 1 units are subscribed), and spend $25 more on TiVo Desktop to convert to iPod format. The benefit is lower power draw, if you record TV at all hours of the day. If your TV recording occurs only during primetime, IMO, a PC DVR is fine.


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## ACraigL (Feb 12, 2003)

I've had 2 S2 TiVos over the years -- still have one lifetimed, but on the bench ATM -- and have switched at the end of last year to an HTPC. Based on my experience, I would not be interested in this as a solution. Though it did draw *enough* interest to read through and post in this thread.

I've been very happy with the MS guide data, as well as the performance and functionality of the HTPC itself. I have 4 tuners 2 HD (HDHR) and 2 analog (nVidia DualTV), so I never miss a show. I have a 500GB drive, which I can upgrade at any time. The extender functionality works well in my home allowing me to share programming and features to my bedroom with little power usage.

Based on all this, I don't see where a PC subscription version of TiVo fits in. I agree the interface is dead-simple, but that alone is no way to justify the costs. I can do/get everything offered through TiVo (DVR) plus more -- web browsing, etc -- so a limited software only offering is odd.

I will note that there was pain to get it up and running and stable -- but for HTPC folks, I think that's part of the fun  However, I have not tinkered with the thing is months and the WAF is very high.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think the biggest draw is the way it integrates with current TiVos. If it can transfer shows at the speed of MRV, instead of TTG, it opens up the possibility for people to create a TiVo server of sorts. That's a big deal for some people.

Dan


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> If it can transfer shows at the speed of MRV, instead of TTG,


there was a point I had not thought through yet :up:
Will definitely be looking for that bit of data then.

if it moves things at the speed of MRV and can "MRV" HD shows from series 3 models then it could indeed kick butt for the value of 99$ a year.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> there was a point I had not thought through yet :up:
> Will definitely be looking for that bit of data then.
> 
> if it moves things at the speed of MRV and can "MRV" HD shows from series 3 models then it could indeed kick butt for the value of 99$ a year.


It would be cool if I could start watching a show on the PC and then do MRV from the paused point (or the other way around), as with MRV. Currently, that can't be done with TTG.

I also wonder about streaming abilities.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> If it can transfer shows at the speed of MRV, instead of TTG, it opens up the possibility for people to create a TiVo server of sorts.


*Agreed*
that this could be useful...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> ...
> As for CableCARDs... I seriously doubt it supports them. I'm 99% sure that even if you have a PC with CableCARD tuners those tuners are only recognized in Windows Media Center. I believe that MS had to make sure that the hardware drivers, OS and MCE software all worked in a very tight, locked down, state so that 3rd party programs could not be developed to capture the stream in an unprotected state. It was the only way they could get approval from Cable Labs....


makes sense-

BUT (you knew there was a butt...- laughing)

what if the tivo software could act like a front end that drives the windows dvr?

also, why couldn't tivo work with ms and cablelabs to get approved? (as you say- there's a big potential upside...)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ACraigL said:


> I've had 2 S2 TiVos over the years -- still have one lifetimed, but on the bench ATM -- and have switched at the end of last year to an HTPC. Based on my experience, I would not be interested in this as a solution. Though it did draw *enough* interest to read through and post in this thread.
> 
> I've been very happy with the MS guide data, as well as the performance and functionality of the HTPC itself. I have 4 tuners 2 HD (HDHR) and 2 analog (nVidia DualTV), so I never miss a show. I have a 500GB drive, which I can upgrade at any time. The extender functionality works well in my home allowing me to share programming and features to my bedroom with little power usage.
> 
> ...


as above most any cable or sat dvr (availible to 85% of the population) are cheaper then tivo. Some people just like tivo enough to pay for it.

99 bucks is cheaper then a year of tivo service. So if you wanted tivo anyway and had a pc then why not?


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## rudiger (Feb 6, 2002)

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080929-hands-on-neros-liquidtv-tivo-for-your-pc.html


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> also, why couldn't tivo work with ms and cablelabs to get approved? (as you say- there's a big potential upside...)


That may be possible, but as I said I'm pretty sure that there are some hooks between the OS (i.e. Vista) and MCE which make Cable Labs approval. Which means Microsoft would have to cooperate with their effort, which may not happen since they'd rather people use their product instead. Then again I'm not part of Cable Labs so I have no idea how strict their approval process is.

Dan


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## snedecor (Jun 27, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I think the biggest draw is the way it integrates with current TiVos. If it can transfer shows at the speed of MRV, instead of TTG, it opens up the possibility for people to create a TiVo server of sorts. That's a big deal for some people.
> 
> Dan


Why do you think the transfer speed is so different between MRV and TTG? Is it the poor design of TTG software? Neither speed is anywhere near the speed limit of the interface.

Snedecor


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

MRV allows you to transfer shows between two Tivos that keep the video in native format so there's no extra conversion or processing taking place. From what I understand about TTG, it has to process the video and convert it to a .tivo file that can be played outside of a Tivo environment. This takes more time and puts more of a load on the Tivo's processor which is already marginal when it comes to available horsepower, hence the longer transfer times.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Man, the more I think about this the more I want it.

An OTA HD TiVo that is FAST, supports FOUR TUNERS, one of which can control a STB, gigabit ethernet, can burn HD content straight to DVD....

I'm seriously considering this....


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> Man, the more I think about this the more I want it.


Yep...with you there!  I'm just switching over from the PC I built a few years ago to an new iMac in my office and I think I've just found a new home for my PC! For not too much out of pocket I can create a full media center/server _including_ TiVo. Now I can really put our HD LCD monitor to work. Woo hoo!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> That may be possible, but as I said I'm pretty sure that there are some hooks between the OS (i.e. Vista) and MCE which make Cable Labs approval. Which means Microsoft would have to cooperate with their effort, which may not happen since they'd rather people use their product instead. Then again I'm not part of Cable Labs so I have no idea how strict their approval process is.
> 
> Dan


hmmm- forgot the evil borg aspect.

bummer...


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Does anyone know if this would work with an HD Homerun?


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

My question is: are there any laptops with compatible video capture cards?

You could travel, and take a TiVo with you. Get to your destination, re-run Guided Setup, fetch the Guide Data, voila. 

That would be cool.

Jan


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The one on the "plus" version is a USB tuner. I am sure there are other compatible USB tuners.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> Man, the more I think about this the more I want it.
> 
> An OTA HD TiVo that is FAST, supports FOUR TUNERS, one of which can control a STB, gigabit ethernet, can burn HD content straight to DVD....
> 
> I'm seriously considering this....


Well you could've built this years ago (and still can) with a copy of Media Center, Sage, Beyond, etc. and your DVD burning/transcoding software of choice. 

Not a Tivo, but networkable and there's no yearly fee. I don't see the point of this software with a recurring fee unless you have to have the Tivo interface, because no one else in the market charges one (the $20/yr. Schedules Direct guide fee is an exception for freeware apps).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> Man, the more I think about this the more I want it.
> 
> An OTA HD TiVo that is FAST, supports FOUR TUNERS, one of which can control a STB, gigabit ethernet, can burn HD content straight to DVD....
> 
> I'm seriously considering this....


And you should seriously consider any of the various PVR apps that are already out there. Having a PC UI that looks like a Tivo is highly overrated. There are numerous programs that can do what the Tivo software does and much more. I like BeyondTV because all I'm looking for is a reliable PVR program to record my HD locals, which it does as well as any Tivo I've ever owned. Many folks like SageTV because it's also a media center program with lots of other features. If you're a Linux geek then check out MythTV. If you want to get off dirt cheap then check out some of the freeware apps like GB-PVR (www.gbpvr.com).

Every PVR program I mentioned has zero monthly fees attached to it and totally free guide data. Why on earth would you voluntarily pay a monthly fee for something that would otherwise cost you nothing? Having a Tivo interface is not exactly a great bonus, IMHO, and certainly not worth the premium price. Keep in mind that ReplayTV went down this path several years ago and it failed miserably. Stick with a Tivo HD if you really want the Tivo experience or are looking for the best way to record encrypted content from digital cable or FIOS. For OTA recording, try one of the proven PVR apps for a PC that will work with a multitude of different tuners. I believe all of them are available as a free trial version so you can see if you like it before you buy it. You can also buy a number of different bundled software+tuner+remote packages from PC Alchemy and other online vendors.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> I don't see the point of this software with a recurring fee unless you have to have the Tivo interface, because no one else in the market charges one (the $20/yr. Schedules Direct guide fee is an exception for freeware apps).


FWIW, the recurring yearly fee gets you free software updates through the life of the subscription, so apparently not all of it's going towards just guide data.

http://www.nero.com/enu/liquidtv-product-faq.html


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## StanSimmons (Jun 10, 2000)

SullyND said:


> Does anyone know if this would work with an HD Homerun?


.


jafa said:


> Hi,
> 
> It looks like LiquidPC works with BDA tuners and as such should work with the HDHomeRun.
> 
> ...


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

I received a copy of Liquid TV for review on Engadget, and I'm convinced that it is designed to be a companion product for existing TiVo owners. It does a good job of providing the TiVo experience on a PC, but does not really compete well with the PC DVR competition. Many of the reasons why have already been listed here. One thing that won't go over well for existing TiVo owners is the fact that there is no multi-service discount.

So far I've only played with it my laptop and what's cool is you can record and transfer shows to your laptop and then take the TiVo experience with you on the road, it also makes it easy to export TiVo recordings to DVD and iPod etc, but honestly it's not new functionality for most, but it does seem easier.

I do have a Vista Media Center PC with dual CableCARD tuners, so I plan to test it out and see if it works with my ATI DCTs and my HDHomeRun tuning ATSC. I don't expect it to work at all with the digital cable tuners, but figure it can't hurt if I make sure I have a good system image before I install it. 

Anyways, if anyone has any questions I'd really appreciate it, as I'm sure there is something I'l forget to test.

Thanks


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bdraw, can you look at how the video data is stored on the hard drive? Are they stored as individual .tivo files? Or in some sort of special container? If it is some sort of special container is there any chance you'd be willing to record a short clip of some unprotected show and send it to me so that I can investigate adding support for the format to VideoReDo?

Dan


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bdraw said:


> I received a copy of Liquid TV for review on Engadget, and I'm convinced that it is designed to be a companion product for existing TiVo owners. It does a good job of providing the TiVo experience on a PC, but does not really compete well with the PC DVR competition. Many of the reasons why have already been listed here. One thing that won't go over well for existing TiVo owners is the fact that there is no multi-service discount.
> 
> So far I've only played with it my laptop and what's cool is you can record and transfer shows to your laptop and then take the TiVo experience with you on the road, it also makes it easy to export TiVo recordings to DVD and iPod etc, but honestly it's not new functionality for most, but it does seem easier.
> 
> ...


Would be interesting to see MRV functionality and compatibility, if any, with formats besides MPEG-2/.tivo files within the TiVo interface.


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## StanSimmons (Jun 10, 2000)

BDraw,
Can you test to see if a normal TiVo Peanut remote will work with LiquidPC and the MCE USB/IR box? Can LiquidPC be set for different remote codes like a normal TiVo can?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> Well you could've built this years ago (and still can) with a copy of Media Center, Sage, Beyond, etc. and your DVD burning/transcoding software of choice.
> 
> Not a Tivo, but networkable and there's no yearly fee. I don't see the point of this software with a recurring fee unless you have to have the Tivo interface, because no one else in the market charges one (the $20/yr. Schedules Direct guide fee is an exception for freeware apps).


Not a TiVo=Not Interested.

I have an HTPC. It isn't a TiVo.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

It records as regular .mpg files.
The remote is identical, I'll try to reprogram it like a regular TiVo when I get a chance.
I don't have a TiVo right now -- sold both my Series3s to buy the VMC -- but my colleague Steve Kim is going to try out the MRV features with his TiVo HD, and I'll get back to you.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

anyone seen or heard about the directv pc tuner box?
HDPC-20 

IF the nero/tivo software works with cablecard tuners and that thing then I'm just about sold....


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bdraw said:


> It records as regular .mpg files.....


no encryption?

even the lowly SD analog stand alone tivo's have encryption right?

If there is no encryption then so much for cablecards....


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

I installed it on my Vista Media Center and during the guided setup, it didn't even display the CableCARD tuners I had installed. It also didn't display the QAM option on the included USB ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuner, only NTSC and ATSC.


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## Darrelpr (Mar 28, 2003)

Ben,
Is the included USB tuner the Hauppauge 950Q?


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## jimmyk (Apr 15, 2002)

I really like the Tivo remote. The ability to use it without looking at it etc. Does anyone know if anyone has mapped the remote codes to MCE? Wonder if the new Nero Remote can be used for other apps besides the Tivo software? Wolud be nice to be able to use with with iTunes as well.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> Not a TiVo=Not Interested.
> 
> I have an HTPC. It isn't a TiVo.


Yep, me too. And I'm glad my Myth box isn't one, because it gives me choices on handling content like I want to instead of how Tivo wants to (like auto commercial skip). It's a shame that I can't use it to record everything in HD with cheap tuner cards, but the cable and content industries have kept us from doing that easily on a PC.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I use BeyondTV to record shows on my HTPC. All of the shows are recorded as mpeg2 transport streams, which means I can transfer them to my main PC and author them to DVD as is. I can also transfer them to any other PC in my house or set it up so they can be streamed. The fact is, there are PVR apps out there that can do the exact same things the Tivo software can do on a PC and there are absolutely no recurring monthly fees. Most people that built HTPCs did so for this very reason. Installing Tivo software on a HTPC is somewhat counterproductive, IMHO. If paying a monthly fee just to see the Tivo guy on your TV gives you a warm fuzzy then by all means go for it. If all you want to do is record shows on your PC and play them back, then there are far better choices available. If you want more bells and whistles then there are apps out there that provide them as well.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *mr.unnatural*
> The fact is, there are PVR apps out there that can do the exact same things the Tivo software can do on a PC and there are absolutely no recurring monthly fees.


I am going to call Bull Sh**t on this. First how do you know what this program can do? It isn't even released yet - Plus we already know you statement is wrong because this program can do MRV with existing SA TiVos which no other PVR app can. Also where did you see any mention of a recurring monthly fee? Only thing stated so far is there will be an annual fee after the first year - the amount hasn't even been stated yet.

My advise is that before someone states a product sucks, isn't needed, or is overpriced perhaps they should at least let the product get released, see what exactly is being offered, at what price, and how it works.

Thanks,


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bdraw said:


> One thing that won't go over well for existing TiVo owners is the fact that there is no multi-service discount.


the 99$ a year fee is MSD prepaid amount. So a new to TiVo user gets a discount* and currnt TiVo users pay a somewhat normal amount.

* it does not get the full set of features you get with a TiVo DVR like TiVo cast and so forth. Of course you can set those up on the PC yourself ofr the most part


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> The fact is, there are PVR apps out there that can do the exact same things the Tivo software can do on a PC and there are absolutely no recurring monthly fees.


If you read the Nero FAQ, it says that the purchase price includes a 12-month subscription to the TiVo service that includes free software updates.

I see the initial purchase prices for SageTV ($80) and BeyondTV ($70), but what are their upgrade costs for major releases?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, me too. And I'm glad my Myth box isn't one, because it gives me choices on handling content like I want to instead of how Tivo wants to (like auto commercial skip). It's a shame that I can't use it to record everything in HD with cheap tuner cards, but the cable and content industries have kept us from doing that easily on a PC.


Hint- You can run more than one DVR solution on a computer.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

Darrelpr said:


> Ben,
> Is the included USB tuner the Hauppauge 950Q?


Yes


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

jimmyk said:


> I really like the Tivo remote. The ability to use it without looking at it etc. Does anyone know if anyone has mapped the remote codes to MCE? Wonder if the new Nero Remote can be used for other apps besides the Tivo software? Wolud be nice to be able to use with with iTunes as well.


The Media Center remote works with the TiVo software, I'll try it the other way around when I get home. I did notice that hitting the TiVo button on the remote when the software isn't running, doesn't bring up the TiVo software which is disappointing.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

aristoBrat said:


> I see the initial purchase prices for SageTV ($80) and BeyondTV ($70), but what are their upgrade costs for major releases?


Who cares? You don't have to buy the upgrade if you don't want it, but with this Nero stuff you have to pay every year.

And there are plenty of free PVR apps that will cost you $20/year max to get listings from Schedules Direct.

This software will, IMO, only be adopted by Tivo diehards and folks that think HTPC software with the Tivo name is what they need, because they don't know any better.

But even Media Center will have more useful functionality (and a much larger user base for support).


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Who cares? You don't have to buy the upgrade if you don't want it, but with this Nero stuff you have to pay every year.


My experience has been that when EyeTV comes out with a major upgrade that isn't free, I buy it because it has features I want. So the point is, some of us ARE currently paying yearly. I'm not familiar with the Windows HTPC software that you're evangelizing, which is why I asked you how much the upgrades typically cost.



> This software will, IMO, only be adopted by Tivo diehards and folks that think HTPC software with the Tivo name is what they need, because they don't know any better.


FWIW, the two reasons I'm considering it have nothing to do with your reasoning.

1) everyone in my house is familiar with the product, so I don't have the hassle of learning a new HTPC solution myself, explaining it to everyone in the house, and then supporting them every time they have an issue.

2) it appears to integrate perfectly with the existing TiVo infrastructure in my house


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *slowbiscuit*
> This software will, IMO, only be adopted by Tivo diehards and folks that think HTPC software with the Tivo name is what they need, because they don't know any better.


You got to love these types of posts. So lets see you haven't seen the software or used it but you have already decided that anyone buying it just doesn't know any better. Which I guess means you know there is a better solution out there for everyone no matter what they want, need, or like. All I can say is my Bull Sh**t meter is going off again.

I will suggest again maybe people should wait until they have actually used the product before they decide it is a piece of sh**t (or at least wait until their are some unbiased reviews that compare it directly to the other options out there).

My 2 cents is that competition is good and having a TiVo software computer DVR solution option is good even if you prefer something else.

Thanks,


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> I am going to call Bull Sh**t on this. First how do you know what this program can do? It isn't even released yet - Plus we already know you statement is wrong because this program can do MRV with existing SA TiVos which no other PVR app can. Also where did you see any mention of a recurring monthly fee? Only thing stated so far is there will be an annual fee after the first year - the amount hasn't even been stated yet.
> 
> My advise is that before someone states a product sucks, isn't needed, or is overpriced perhaps they should at least let the product get released, see what exactly is being offered, at what price, and how it works.
> 
> Thanks,


Call it what you want. One would have to assume that if Tivo is developing the software for a PC then most likely it's going to have the same features as existing models, with a few caveats. It's called an educated guess. Unless they come out with some kind of home media center version that outclasses the current Tivo software then I think it's safe to assume I have a basic understanding of what this software is all about. I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that it's a PVR app at a bare minimum so any comparison to similar apps is justified.

MRV can be done between any PC simply by mapping a shared drive across your home network and then pointing to the remote file using PowerDVD or other playback codec. In other words, you don't need to buy any extra apps to have MRV on your existing PCs. I have a server that I use to stream ripped DVDs to any PC in my house and it works great.

Annual or monthly - does it really matter what the frequency of payment is? The bottom line is that you have to pay a fee for the Tivo service/guide data with this software. That in itself says it's overpriced when compared to all other existing PVR apps.

FYI - the link in the very first post of this thread indicates the LiquidTV package costs $199 which includes a one-year Tivo subscription, a Hauppauge USB tuner, and a peanut remote. You could easily buy a BeyondTV or SageTV bundle that includes the software, tuner, and remote for less than the Nero package and never have to pay any additional fees. In fact, Snapstream currently has a BeyondTV bundle with the HD HomeRun ATSC/QAM dual tuner (which is far superior to the single tuner Hauppauge toy that Nero offers) and a free Firefly mini remote for only $179. That's a far better deal than the Nero package.

PVR for a PC with no fees = good

PVR software with recurring fees = bad

Obviously Tivo and Nero think there are enough uneducated people out there that will blindly pay monthly fees for something the rest of us have been getting absolutely free for years. Now that's what I call Bull s**t!

P.S. This product was mentioned over at the AVSForum in the Home Theater Computer forum and it is being viewed as a curiosity and nothing more. The folks there know HTPCs and don't see this as a serious contender to the apps currently being used by HTPC owners. The general concensus mirrors my views on this product.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> That's a far better deal than the Nero package.


No, it makes it a less-expensive deal.

There's way more to the equation than simply price when it comes to something being a "bar better" deal.



> MRV can be done between any PC simply by mapping a shared drive across your home network and then pointing to the remote file using PowerDVD or other playback codec. In other words, you don't need to buy any extra apps to have MRV on your existing PCs.


You're being disingenuous if you think that the majority of home users can even setup a share and map it from another computer, much less consider any part of your quote "simple".


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## LADYBUGBLUE2002 (Sep 7, 2003)

While this might not be a solution for all users...my brother who is using the Windows media center is interested because he wants to replace his current HDPVR as it is basically crap. In Canada Tivo products do not work in HD and he is hoping this will work with HD since the cable companies do not support cable cards. 

I am hoping for the same. Tivo is not for everyone, but saving money is not always the best solution for everyone. Sometimes you get what you pay for.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bdraw said:


> It records as regular .mpg files.


Wow, really? I guess that's logical. Standalone TiVos block you from transferring anything that's copy protected, so there is no way to recieve a program that needs to be protected via MRV. And since they don't support CableCARDs there is no way they can record anything natively that needs to be protected either. However I'm curious as to how they keep track of guide data without it being tagged inside the file some how. Maybe they actually do use the .tivo container format but without the encryption and with a .mpg extension.

Any chance you'd still be willing to send me a small sample file. If you PM me I'll give you an FTP address where you can upload it.

Dan


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

Does the mpg file format preclude true MRV and indicate that transfers will use the TTG and TTCB protocols with their slower speeds?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

No. In fact if all shows are stored as .mpg, including those transferred via MRV, then that means they are NOT using TTG. TiVos have two ways of transferring video. They can transfer a raw stream, which is the method used by MRV, or they can transfer a .tivo file. There is no .mpg option. If they were using TTG then they would have to label the file .tivo or it would not play correctly if the user attempted to use the file outside of the Nero program. My guess is that they are receiving the raw stream and then muxing that into a standard .mpg stream on the PC. This is something I've actually been suggesting for TTG for years. Using the power of the PC to mux the audio and video into a standard MPEG program stream makes a lot more sense then doing it on the TiVo itself with it's limited hardware power.

Dan


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *mr.unnatural*
> I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that it's a PVR app at a bare minimum so any comparison to similar apps is justified.


I absolutely agree; the problem is no one has done the comparison yet. Until the finished product is up and running and reviewed against the other PVR apps out their everyone is just blowing smoke. Once everyone can see the pluses and minuses to each product then an individual can decide what PVR software is best for them, for some price will be a major factor for others it may not be, but we can't even talk about price yet because we don't really know what it's going to cost (beyond the currently proposed $99 for software with 1 year service).

I know people who buy new computers every year or 2 heck I even know people who trade their cars every year. So for some people $50-100/per year for updated PVR software and service may be allot of money for other people it's nothing.

Thanks,


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think that this product will appeal more to people who already own TiVos, and want to use it as a companion product, then to people looking to setup a lone HTPC. As others have pointed out there are other PVR software solutions out there with more features, cheaper prices and proven PC compatibility. The Nero/TiVo product may compete on all those fronts eventually, but probably not for a few more iterations. However as a companion product for people who own standalone TiVos it will be unmatched, and those are the people who are going to buy it and use it now. 

Dan


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> I think that this product will appeal more to people who already own TiVos, and want to use it as a companion product, then to people looking to setup a lone HTPC. Dan


My personal choice from what I know now would be to get just the software for a one time fee and not pay more and not have the ability to record anything via tuners but use it to derve up video bewteen my TiVo DVRs and PCs. This of course assumes it can go faster than TTG does.


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## StanSimmons (Jun 10, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> My personal choice from what I know now would be to get just the software for a one time fee and not pay more and not have the ability to record anything via tuners but use it to derve up video bewteen my TiVo DVRs and PCs. This of course assumes it can go faster than TTG does.


I suspect that you will find that the MRV functions won't work without the monthly/yearly fee.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> If they were using TTG then they would have to label the file .tivo or it would not play correctly if the user attempted to use the file outside of the Nero program.


Or decode it to MPG prior to storage.



> My guess is that they are receiving the raw stream and then muxing that into a standard .mpg stream on the PC. This is something I've actually been suggesting for TTG for years. Using the power of the PC to mux the audio and video into a standard MPEG program stream makes a lot more sense then doing it on the TiVo itself with it's limited hardware power.


Aren't the streams encrypted? Does this mean TiVo provided access to their DRM on the PC? I hope you are right. The speed increase would be very nice.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> Annual or monthly - does it really matter what the frequency of payment is? The bottom line is that you have to pay a fee for the Tivo service/guide data with this software. That in itself says it's overpriced when compared to all other existing PVR apps.


You are forgetting the TiVo "service" is more than guide data.
It is paying for the software, and in this case the look and feel of the TiVo, which TiVo most likely wanted to license out on a no more than a yearly basis.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

LADYBUGBLUE2002 said:


> While this might not be a solution for all users...my brother who is using the Windows media center is interested because he wants to replace his current HDPVR as it is basically crap. In Canada Tivo products do not work in HD and he is hoping this will work with HD since the cable companies do not support cable cards.


It won't work with encrypted cable, if that is what you are hoping. Not to mention Canadian cable providers are happier to encrypt everything they can, for they have no such restriction preventing it.

The most it would do is record SD from a cable box, or OTA if you have it.

In short, the best DVR solution for a pay service in Canada, is your provider's HD-DVR, whatever that may be.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

CuriousMark said:


> Or decode it to MPG prior to storage.


Doubtful, as that would be a waste of processor time and would defeat the purpose of the .tivo format in the first place. (i.e. encryption)



CuriousMark said:


> Aren't the streams encrypted? Does this mean TiVo provided access to their DRM on the PC? I hope you are right. The speed increase would be very nice.


Yes they are. So that would mean that the Nero software has to have some way of decrypting the streams if it does truly store MRVed content in an unencrypted .mpg file.

Really we wont know how all this works until the software is released and it gets into the hand of people who know how to investigate these things. I'll probably pick up a copy of the software myself when it's released so that I can verify that everything still works properly with VideoReDo. If I find anything interesting I'll be sure to pass the info along.

Dan


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Dan203 said:


> I think that this product will appeal more to people who already own TiVos, and want to use it as a companion product, then to people looking to setup a lone HTPC. .... However as a companion product for people who own standalone TiVos it will be unmatched, and those are the people who are going to buy it and use it now.
> 
> Dan


I seriously doubt that. What does TiVO user gets for$99 a year that he/she doesn't have already? Absolute majority of TiVo users use TiVO to watch and record TV. On rare occasion they may want to save a show on DVD or computer or transfer to another unit. What benefit this software will have for for people who already have TiVo? Almost none. Not worth additional $99 per year in my mind.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The only people who buy HTPCs period are tech geeks anyway. Joe sixpack isn't going to buy/build an HTPC, regardless of the PVR software, when he can get a dedicated box that does the same thing for 1/4-1/2 the price, or by paying a small monthly fee to the cable company. Now considering that tech geek subset, I believe that the ones who already own a standalone TiVo are the ones who are more likely to buy the Nero/TiVo software, and that they'll do so because it compliments their standalone TiVo in someway. For example I think there will be hardcore users who will install it on a box with 4 tuners so that they can record all their shows in a centralized location and then simply MRV them to the room of their choice for watching. (Sort of a TiVo server) Then there are the frequent traveler types who want to take the TiVo experience on the road and will install the software on their laptops so they can MRV shows before they leave and then use their laptop just like a TiVo when they're in the hotel. And then there will be the tinkerer types who will buy it simply to see what they can get it to do. Having the software run on Windows opens it up to all sorts of crazy hacks which might actually make it possible to do things with your real TiVos that you may not otherwise be able to do.

And I'd like to know where everyone is getting this $99/year figure? I know it's $99 for the software which includes the first year of service, but I didn't see anything that said it would cost $99/year for service. In fact I seem to remember reading something on one of the sites which said that continued service after the first year would cost less then the service contract on a standalone TiVo. So did I just miss something that clearly stated it would be $99/year? Or are people just assuming that based on the initial cost of the product which includes a year of service?

Dan


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> I know it's $99 for the software which includes the first year of service, but I didn't see anything that said it would cost $99/year for service.


I could not find any place that listed the cost after the first year either.

I also pretty much agree with your analysis of the most likely users - there could also be a place for the software in custom built high end home theater systems that include a media center PC, the TiVo name might carry some wait with people paying someone to build out the system.

Thanks,


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> <snip> Now considering that tech geek subset, I believe that the ones who already own a standalone TiVo are the ones who are more likely to buy the Nero/TiVo software, and that they'll do so because it compliments their standalone TiVo in someway. For example I think there will be hardcore users who will install it on a box with 4 tuners so that they can record all their shows in a centralized location and then simply MRV them to the room of their choice for watching. (Sort of a TiVo server) Then there are the frequent traveler types who want to take the TiVo experience on the road and will install the software on their laptops so they can MRV shows before they leave and then use their laptop just like a TiVo when they're in the hotel. And then there will be the tinkerer types who will buy it simply to see what they can get it to do. Having the software run on Windows opens it up to all sorts of crazy hacks which might actually make it possible to do things with your real TiVos that you may not otherwise be able to do.
> 
> Dan


Exactly Dan. Well put! :up: Based on what I've read to date the Nero/TiVo program will give me many more options that are instantly compatible with and will enhance my existing TiVo/HTPC/laptop experience (and may even partially fulfill my ceaseless need to tweak and tinker  ). Well worth a few bucks a month IMHO.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

The initial article on either engadget or gizmodo (Or both) had the service at $99/year...

ETA: Gizmodo - WSJ (Giz's link)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SullyND said:


> The initial article on either engadget or gizmodo (Or both) had the service at $99/year...
> 
> ETA: Gizmodo - WSJ (Giz's link)


yes. and the other one mentioned that was less than the year prepay of 129$ if you do not qualify for the MSD rate. That is where the "less than" remark comes into play.

And had this product come out before I bought my second DT to deal with conflicts I would have seriously thought about it instead due to the fact it could do 4 tuners but I currently have no "spare" PC with 4 kids and all so the cost would have been actually much higher to come up with the PC and 4 tuners hardware, which is what always stops this adorkable geek from going HTPC and liking his TiVo DVRs especially the TiVo HD which can do digital OTA and digital cable.


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## LADYBUGBLUE2002 (Sep 7, 2003)

classicsat said:


> It won't work with encrypted cable, if that is what you are hoping. Not to mention Canadian cable providers are happier to encrypt everything they can, for they have no such restriction preventing it.
> 
> The most it would do is record SD from a cable box, or OTA if you have it.
> 
> In short, the best DVR solution for a pay service in Canada, is your provider's HD-DVR, whatever that may be.


I had heard on Digital Home that the HD boxes in Canada might be used with this software. The moderator indicated so in a couple of posts and will be testing so we'll see. I guess it depends on if there are TV tuners that can work with the Tivo software...I am hoping this might work as where I am at Shaw PVR is the only option which is minimal at best.


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## pvanb (May 21, 2007)

classicsat said:


> It won't work with encrypted cable, if that is what you are hoping. Not to mention Canadian cable providers are happier to encrypt everything they can, for they have no such restriction preventing it.
> 
> The most it would do is record SD from a cable box, or OTA if you have it.


But isn't the signal coming out of the HD cable box decrypted? And with the provided IR blaster to control the cable box shouldn't it be possible? I'm probably missing a fundamental step, but that's why I asked in the first place ;-)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I have another quesiton/hope.

I'm in between NYC and Philly- currently i can aim my antenna either or.

maybe it will be possible to have 4 tuners and connect 2 to an antenna aimed at NY and 2 to an antenna aimed at Philly?

also- I wonder if it will control and playback from a dvd or blueray drive in the HTPC. DVD would be a little bonus. But if it would hook into a blueray drive then that's a big plus/selling point to me.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Right now, you can use the box with the SD input of a BDA compatible tuner or capture device. I believe they are looking to see if it is compatible with the Hauppauge HD encoder, which is the only way to record from an HD STB.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

pvanb said:


> But isn't the signal coming out of the HD cable box decrypted? And with the provided IR blaster to control the cable box shouldn't it be possible? I'm probably missing a fundamental step, but that's why I asked in the first place ;-)


Out of HDMI, probably.

Out of component, no, but you need an encoder for it, and a BDA compatible one at that for the Nero product. Out of S-video or composite, no, but those aren't HD.


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## LADYBUGBLUE2002 (Sep 7, 2003)

Maybe it won't work...but I am hoping there is an alternative to the Shaw PVR. 

Begin rant...While it does work...I hate it...the interface is awful, no real options to change, and you have to set season passes for each and every year...end rant.

Maybe I need to move back to the U.S.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> The only people who buy HTPCs period are tech geeks anyway. Joe sixpack isn't going to buy/build an HTPC, regardless of the PVR software, when he can get a dedicated box that does the same thing for 1/4-1/2 the price, or by paying a small monthly fee to the cable company. ...
> 
> Dan


I'm guessing you haven't looked into the Vista Home Premium or Ultimate Editions. Both versions include the Home Media Center option which has it's own built-in PVR software and media center apps. Any new PC that has this software installed may also come with a TV tuner included in the package. Lots of new PC owners that don't really qualify as geeks have the same capability of recording OTA programming as the geek community. With either Vista version you can add media extenders to any room in the house and expand the usability of the HTPC.



aristoBrat said:


> You're being disingenuous if you think that the majority of home users can even setup a share and map it from another computer, much less consider any part of your quote "simple".


I'm making the assumption that anyone who has the know-how to set up a home network can map a drive on the network. As such, I'm also assuming that anyone that has the technical knowledge to get that far can easily perform the tasks I indicated. I agree that the average home user is not technically inclined to be able to set up a network, map a drive, or know how to stream video between PCs. These individuals would also be less inclined to install a software package that turns their PC into a Tivo because any use of a PC that doesn't involve surfing the internet and sending e-mails is beyond their capability. In other words, my comments are aimed at those individuals that would be more likely to use the Tivo software.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm making the assumption that anyone who has the know-how to set up a home network can map a drive on the network.


big difference between plugging in a router box and hooking up some cables or wireless adapters as per a picture and everything sort of works - and going into Windows and having to find various options.
If someone gave a person a how-to step by step guide then it is easy enough but other than that Windows is till not very intuitive at all.

I have surprised 3 or 4 people with the fact that have media center on the PC they bought


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## ebockelman (Jul 12, 2001)

classicsat said:


> Right now, you can use the box with the SD input of a BDA compatible tuner or capture device. I believe they are looking to see if it is compatible with the Hauppauge HD encoder, which is the only way to record from an HD STB.


If they get this working with the Hauppauge 1212, I'll be all over it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm guessing you haven't looked into the Vista Home Premium or Ultimate Editions. Both versions include the Home Media Center option which has it's own built-in PVR software and media center apps. Any new PC that has this software installed may also come with a TV tuner included in the package. Lots of new PC owners that don't really qualify as geeks have the same capability of recording OTA programming as the geek community. With either Vista version you can add media extenders to any room in the house and expand the usability of the HTPC.


I have. In fact I own one. However when average Joe walks into Best Buy and has a choice between a $250 TiVo HD and a $900 PC with Vista Ultimate MCE installed I seriously doubt he's going to buy the PC. The only people who buy HTPCs are people who see additional utility in the PC portion of the product. And really the only people who see utility in having a PC connected to the TV are geeks. Of course there are exceptions, but I think that applies to the majority of HTPC owners.

Dan


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I have. In fact I own one. However when average Joe walks into Best Buy and has a choice between a $250 TiVo HD and a $900 PC with Vista Ultimate MCE installed I seriously doubt he's going to buy the PC. The only people who buy HTPCs are people who see additional utility in the PC portion of the product. And really the only people who see utility in having a PC connected to the TV are geeks. Of course there are exceptions, but I think that applies to the majority of HTPC owners.
> 
> Dan


No argument there, except that lots of people upgraded from XP to Vista without having to buy a completely new PC. More and more home theater enthusiasts are getting into HTPCs for the utility and flexibility they provide. Most HTPC owners tend to build their own rather than buy turnkey solutions, which tend to be few and far between anyway. You definitely have to be somewhat of a geek to go this route but the results are worth it if you're willing to put forth the effort.

I used to burn everything to DVD-R/RW and play them back on my expensive standalone universal disc player. Now I just rip everything to my server and stream it to my HDTV via my HTPC. Standard DVDs look better than ever, even when compared to my $2100 Marantz flagship player. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs look and sound fantastic. As soon as Asus gets the bugs out of their HDAV1.3 HDMI sound card and releases it in the U.S. I'll be able to listen to my HD discs with HD audio to go along with the 1080p video. The only reason I'm still using my Tivos is because there's no practical or economical way to record anything from encrypted sources like FIOS or digital cable using a HTPC.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> No. In fact if all shows are stored as .mpg, including those transferred via MRV, then that means they are NOT using TTG.


Actually Dan, transfered files via mrv are still .tivo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Any chance you could do a speed comparison and see if MRV transfers via this software are any faster then TTG transfers using TiVo Desktop?

Dan


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## zgamer (Oct 13, 2007)

http://www.nero.com/enu/downloads-liquidtv-trial.php
30-day trial is now available for download.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

Transfers are just as slow as TTG and you can't watch while they are transferring.


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## StanSimmons (Jun 10, 2000)

zgamer said:


> http://www.nero.com/enu/downloads-liquidtv-trial.php
> 30-day trial is now available for download.


That link gets you to "Nero_Move_it-1.0.10.0_trial.exe (87 MB (90.818.192 bytes))" not to LiquidTV


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

StanSimmons said:


> That link gets you to "Nero_Move_it-1.0.10.0_trial.exe (87 MB (90.818.192 bytes))" not to LiquidTV


It takes me to the LiquidTV trial download page, but the "Download" link is inactive for some reason.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

MickeS said:


> It takes me to the LiquidTV trial download page, but the "Download" link is inactive for some reason.


 Once you supply an email address the Download link becomes active.


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

Ok, so I put in my email and downloaded and it's "Nero Move It". I started the install and it was still Nero Move It. Someone screwed up.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bdraw said:


> Transfers are just as slow as TTG and you can't watch while they are transferring.


That's disappointing. 

Dan


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> That's disappointing.
> 
> Dan


yah, looks like PyTiVo still for me then.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Once you supply an email address the Download link becomes active.


Ah.

Yeah, I get the "Move It" link too.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Thought this EngadgetHD review would have shown up here by now...

Nero LiquidTV | TiVo PC review


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Doesn't support QAM? Between that and the slow "MRV" transfers it's pretty much useless to me. If I want to record the 3 channels I can kind of get via antenna then I'll just fire up MCE.

Dan


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Doesn't support QAM? Between that and the slow "MRV" transfers it's pretty much useless to me. If I want to record the 3 channels I can kind of get via antenna then I'll just fire up MCE.


Antenna doesn't use QAM, that is strictly a cable thing. It should work fine with your antenna since those signals come in as ATSC which the web site and review say it does support.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Doesn't support QAM? Between that and the slow "MRV" transfers it's pretty much useless to me. If I want to record the 3 channels I can kind of get via antenna then I'll just fire up MCE.
> 
> Dan


Yep, gotta agree that no QAM is a disappointment...although it sounds like that may happen in the future. That and a few other negatives take the shine off of the product. It's too bad because I'd like to set up a TiVo based HTPC plus I really want TiVo to succeed with this. They'll have to make it more robust because the core users (unlike the casual TiVo user) will certainly expect it.  Looking forward to v2.0 whenever it comes out!

EDIT:


CuriousMark said:


> Antenna doesn't use QAM, that is strictly a cable thing. It should work fine with your antenna since those signals come in as ATSC which the web site and review say it does support.


My mistake too (and I think I knew that. D'oh!). Well...that's a plus...I might reconsider it.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

This product is DOA as far as I can make out. I think Tivo would have done better to actually work on proper unencrypted QAM support on their existing series 3 hardware. The reason given by TivoPony that it wasn't done there is because the market for that was too small. Well it seems like the market for this product is even smaller (and it's already a crowded market)!!??


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yup. Yearly service fee + limited feature set positioned within a small niche of an already niche market = 0.00001&#37; share. They really should've done their homework and saw how badly ReplayTV PC Edition bombed, but at least this product interops with the existing hardware (RTV PC Edition, amazingly enough, could not talk to Replays on your network).


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Doesn't support QAM? Between that and the slow "MRV" transfers it's pretty much useless to me. If I want to record the 3 channels I can kind of get via antenna then I'll just fire up MCE.
> 
> Dan


Yeah, good luck selling a product that can ONLY receive OTA ATSC.

Even I who currently only use OTA would at least want the OPTION to use cable.


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

My only interest in this product is to see what the Hackers can do with it.


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## GoodSpike (Dec 17, 2001)

I suspect it will support QAM through the HD Homerun, if and when the HD Homerun supports this product.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

does seem a bit disappointing.

(not much else to say)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> This product is DOA as far as I can make out. I think Tivo would have done better to actually work on proper unencrypted QAM support on their existing series 3 hardware. The reason given by TivoPony that it wasn't done there is because the market for that was too small. Well it seems like the market for this product is even smaller (and it's already a crowded market)!!??


seems to me that Nero spend most of the time and effort and they took the risk. So I dont think tivo pushed vast resources to this project that could have added QAM to the S3 hardware.

If Tivo thought the PC software market was going to be their saving grace that built them huge market share then then they would have just done it themselves.

from the original press release

http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/pressroom/pressreleases/2007/pr2007-11-28.html



> Under the agreement, Nero will develop a software solution that will bring TiVo features to the personal computer.


I'm just glad that Tivo let Nero try. If not we wouldn't have any hope on the horizon. Hopefully this is just an early fooray and V2 or V3 will be worth the effort.


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

I just noticed this was supposed to be out on the 15th. So where is it?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=408170


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## kemac (Apr 27, 2004)

steve614 said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=408170


From Amazon -This item will be released on October 27, 2008.


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## drs9222 (Oct 21, 2008)

Looks like there is a working 30 day trial link now.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

GoodSpike said:


> I suspect it will support QAM through the HD Homerun, if and when the HD Homerun supports this product.


The only way that's going to happen is if they can write a driver which tricks the TiVo software into thinking it's getting a OTA channel when it's really getting a QAM channel. Otherwise the TiVo software wont assign data to the QAM channel no matter what they do.

That being said... One good thing about this being on a PC is that 3rd party hackers can do almost anything given proper motivation. In this case it would probably be pretty trivial for someone with the know how to write some sort of proxy that sits between the TiVo software and the tuner card and converts requests for UHF channel 28 into request for QAM channel 68.2, or whatever, so that the hardware and software are none the wiser.

Dan


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## zgamer (Oct 13, 2007)

zgamer said:


> http://www.nero.com/enu/downloads-liquidtv-trial.php
> 30-day trial is now available for download.


Bump, it's now really available for download. Weighs in at 115Megs (version 1.0.5.3).


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

I gave this thing it's first tryout last night. I am NOT impressed-- I recorded an HD show, and then transferred it to one of my Series 3 TiVos for a comparison. The quality was horrendous; it looked all grainy and compressed. I then went and watched part of the same show on the computer itself, and the quality was significantly lower than the same show recorded using Windows Media Center. The audio and video was constantly losing sync. It was damn near unwatchable.

I'll give it another go round tonight, but I'm not holding out high hopes.


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## Raymond Day (May 13, 2002)

I did the 1st tryout 3 days ago now. Can download it now.

I tested it out on a PC I have been using with Beyhond TV. Beyond TV can record over the Air HD and cable with the ATI tuner card I have. But Nero LiquidTV can only use one or the other. So I set it up for over the Air HD or over the Air none HD too.

I have a 2 core 2.6 Mhz Install CPU on a Intel D945GCCR motherboard. It's using it's on board video.

Beyond TV can record and play HD videos on it super good. But Nero LiquidTV is slow and make the HD show stutter.

I order a video card I think will work with it better but it's something Beyond TV works on HD video super good but Nero don't.

LiquidTV don't fast forword nice like it does on a real TiVo. I guess that's because my PC is not fast or the on board video on it. But Nero records in .mpg not .tivo. TiVo video files has like a mark in them every min. or so. That's why they can fast forword or rewide for nice and fast.

LiquidTV does see real TiVo's good and real TiVo's see LiquidTV good.

I tested recording a HD video with LiquidTV it plays it back stuttering but I played the same video with Windows Media player and it plays the video very good. But the sound is like your in a cave.

I guess they programed in some slow code for LiquidTV. I don't know.

I hope the $50 with shipping video card I order will make it work good on my PC. I shold get it next week.

-Raymond Day


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Raymond Day said:


> LiquidTV don't fast forword nice like it does on a real TiVo. I guess that's because my PC is not fast or the on board video on it. But Nero records in .mpg not .tivo. TiVo video files has like a mark in them every min. or so. That's why they can fast forword or rewide for nice and fast.


The files are essentially the same. The only difference is that they use a different wrapper. In other words, they're both mpeg2 recordings with a few minor differences. The "mark" you're referring to is the GOP header that's found in every mpeg file. A normal mpeg2 file spaces the GOP headers about every 18 frames. Tivo records files with GOP header spacing all over the place. Some can be as close as a few frames or as far apart as 100. It's this non-standard spacing that allows a Tivo to fast forward or rewind. It's probably the reason you don't get the same kind of smooth response when fast forwarding or rewinding recorded shows in BeyondTV or other PVR apps because they all keep the GOP spacing in standard format.


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

More bad news.
DO NOT install LiquidTV if you use firewire recording/transfer.
LTV will BSOD your XP SP2 machine continually seconds after logon when presumably Neros services startup or the program probes all tuners.
Un-install LiquidTV and all is good again.

Furthermore LTV does not work with the HDHomeRun, but bizzarely does list a DVB-S2 FireDTV tuner but doesnt work with it.

This looks like a late Alpha/early Beta product, not RTM!


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## Wiz33 (Mar 31, 2006)

Well, I got my shipping notice from Amazon this morning and the unit is already out for delivery from UPS tracking (thanks to Amazon Prime ;-)) so hopefully I can install it tonight. It better runs fast on my Q9550 PC with 4GB and a GTX260 setup or it goes back.


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## zgamer (Oct 13, 2007)

I downloaded the trial version on my htpc and kinda disappointed with the functionality, the basic tivo pvr functionality is there but the tivocasts and other extras are not. Maybee a later release will be better but wasn't too impressed with it last night.


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## Wiz33 (Mar 31, 2006)

Ok, I got home kinda late last night and didn't get to play with it for too long so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I installed it on my primary PC in my computer room with the following spec. Asus P5B deluxe mobo, Q9550, 4GB DDR2-800, nVidia GTX 260. Recording on a Seagate 7200.10 500GB SATA2 HD and watching on a Dell 2709W.

Setup. Fairly straight forward. Insert CD, Plug in USB tuner, decline window driver search and click tuner driver on the CD. Once that is done. Install the Liquid TV software and you are almost ready to go.

Launch the application and you are greeted with a first time setup menu much like any other tivo product. Setup the remote, enter zip code, your Tivo subscription code, select the tuner you want to use and go thru channel scan and you are good to go. (I'm using the same OTA antenna that I use for my HD Tivo)

Operations. The Tivo remote work pretty good and make it seems like operating any other Tivo product. Live broadcast look decent but not as good as the HD Tivo or the built-in tuner on my Sharp 46" LCD. I would say it's better than DVD but nowhere near that of a hardware tuner. I have a 1.2GB 720p mkv file for the Terminator Sarah Conner Chronicles season opener that have more picture detail but maybe slightly less frame rate.

I did a recording of the 10PM Law and Order and the result is about the same compared to watching live. I check the recording file and the 1 hour show took up slightly over 6GB. that is pretty close to what a standalone unit will take. With that much data, the picture should be very close to that of a SA unit but it's not.

I also have some minor tearing on full screen live and playback. That issue seems to be software related as the recorded file plays just fine using media player. Hopefully this will improve with future updates.

The only thing that I think could cause the lower quality is the USB tuner. I have the older ATI HD tuner card in the same PC although I have not used it since I went to a nVidia video card. I can see if it still works and if it gives a better picture. (it's been a while but I think I have seen better picture from the ATI when I had it running). Maybe some of you with a better PCI tuner card can give the trail version a try and see.

I also tried multitasking with it running in a window box. At one time, I have Eve online (MMO game), Googletalk, Firefox and a download ongoing at the same time. There were some minor pauses and out of sync when I'm switching apps and such but it's ok in general. I did have one CTD while setting up a season pass. I have not have a chance to watch the complete 1 hour recording so I don't know if the pause and out of sync was carried over to the recorded file.

In conclusion. I'm a bit disappointed as the picture quality is nowhere near that of a SA Tivo box or the built-in tuner on the TV. However, The Tivo software and remote make operation just like a SA Tivo which is so much better than any other HTPC solution I have tried. I'll probably keep it as it's relatively cheap and hopefully the software will improve over time. I'll even be willing to invest in an better PCI tuner card if it turns out that they can improve the picture quality.


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## Wiz33 (Mar 31, 2006)

Looks like the picture quality problem is tied to the USB Tuner. I got a hold of a Aver Media Volar Max USB from a co-worker and the picture quality is about on par with the Liquid TV so either both software are sub par or the USB tuner are just not as good as the SA/Built-in tuner. I'm going to try to get my ATI HDTV card to work again and we'll see if there is any difference.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Are you recording digital channels or analog channels? For digital channels the quality should be the same regardless of the tuner card you're using as it should be capturing the ATSC stream as-is. However for analog signals the quality of the tuner itself, the analog->digital converter circuitry and the MPEG-2 encoder can all play a big part in the quality of the resulting recording.

Dan


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

If you are referring to analog tuners, then OK. But digital tuners dont touch the audio/video, just save the "file" being broadcast (transport stream). Maybe the codecs installed with the different tuners results in what you see, but its a slim chance the digital tuner causes this.


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## Wiz33 (Mar 31, 2006)

Then it might be the software but I have use both the Aver Media package, the liquid TV/Tivo package and just good old media player and the picture quality is about the same. I'll download the WinTV-HVR-950 hybrid package from Hauppauge and see if it's any better. The signal strength is good as the Aver Media software show 100&#37; signal strength. It is strange that a downloaded 1.2GB mkv file seems to have better picture detail. I'll also have a chance to compare the same show recorded with the HD Tivo with this later tonight. We'll see.


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## David Scavo (Dec 14, 1999)

On sale now at Frys.com for $99

http://shop4.outpost.com/product/5733482


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## aateil (Dec 24, 2008)

I was wondering if there will be a trial version for this software? I'll give it a look-see but no way will I pay $99 until I've had a chance to test it out in my mixed Tivo/VMC environment.


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## kemac (Apr 27, 2004)

There has been a trial version available available for download on the Nero site since it was released.


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