# Game of Thrones - S07E03 - The Queen's Justice



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Amazing that Cersei has already got revenge for both of her kids murders in one episode. Obviously we were all expecting the Ellaria bit...though I was certain that with the repeated framing of The Mountain in multiple scenes that it was going to end with a skull crushing of the daughter (I was also wondering if he was going to rape her before murdering her, just to twist the knife in her heart a bit). I didn't see the kiss coming at all, and even when she started, it took me a second to figure it out. Brilliant on her part for figuring that out and sending it right back at them. 

Note that with the next scene going immediately to her kissing Jamie, I was like "uhhhhh, I hope you cleaned up really good". Even though we saw her wipe off her lips and then drink the antidote (which probably got on her lips) I was wondering if her "punishment" was going to be killing him by accident (then she's got noone to anchor her anymore). And with Qyburn's setup of how it could take days for death, I was wondering if Jamie still might die. But now that he's apparently gone all the way Highgarden (and possibly even Casterly Rock first), I think it's a pretty good bet he's in the clear.

But then to also get Olenna in the same episode...incredible. When I saw the wine goblets on the table, I knew what was going to happen, but I was wondering how Cersei had figured out it was her (last we saw 2 episodes ago she was still blaming Tyrion). But then the amazing turnabout was that it was just coincidence, and they DIDN'T know Olenna had Joffrey killed. Amazing. Sorry to see Olenna go...she was a magnificent character. I like how even in death she gets that last laugh in on Cersei, who is now going to be furious but unable to give her a fitting punishment anymore.

And then on the opposite end, the all-powerful Dany (who it looked like was going to just storm in and clean house across Westeros) suffers another crushing defeat. Another big chunk of her fleet destroyed (does Cersei need Euron anymore?). I really fear for her dragons now. She's going to get desperate and use them (despire everyone advising her not to), and I'm afraid she's going to lose at least one of them.

Glad to see Jorah cured, though I'm not sure I was as confident as Sam about the "not contageous" part. And Sam's punishment I figure will lead to him finding something of vital importance in one of those decaying scrolls.

Glad to see Sansa isn't immediately tanking everything in Jon's absense, though I wonder how well the "oh, we don't have enough grain? I know, everyone should send us all their grain and we'll 'promose' to give it back if they need it" bit will go over on everyone else.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Oh, and by the way...does anyone recognize the ship Jon sailed in on? Didn't look familiar to me...are we then to assume he just hired some random sailors to sail him there and back?










And then a bit later we see this ship in harbor:










I can't quite make out the sigil, but I'm assuming it's survivors of Yara's crew coming to report back on the attack (I actually thought that was Jon's ship my first watch through)


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Question: One moment Jaime & Company march up to HighGarden. Olenna is watching them from her HighWindow. The next they're inside the walls, stacking dead Tyrellians.

Did I miss how they got inside?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Question: One moment Jaime & Company march up to HighGarden. Olenna is watching them from her HighWindow. The next they're inside the walls, stacking dead Tyrellians.
> 
> Did I miss how they got inside?


Not really. They skipped the battle because the Tyrel army was basically crushed and it wasn't relevant to the scene.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> Not really. They skipped the battle because the Tyrel army was basically crushed and it wasn't relevant to the scene.


"Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead." 

It was nice seeing the dance between Daenerys and Jon ("You brought fire and ice together" indeed!). And with Bran on the scene ("I have to talk to him" indeed!), the relationship between D & J is bound to take an interesting turn sooner than later.

The time compression continues. Months probably passed during this episode, with all the movement from one end of the continent to another...


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

morac said:


> Not really. They skipped the battle because the Tyrel army was basically crushed and it wasn't relevant to the scene.


Were they crushed, or was the defense minimal because the majority of their army had already march to kings landing per their plan with dany?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I guess I was wrong about Bron saving the cute Sand snake 

I understand that the Tyrells are out of the picture with a sound defeat. But why is Dorne out of the picture with the death of their leader? isn't there someone in charge who would still continue the fight?

I see Tarley was on hand to inspect his new digs!

I absolutely LOVED Olenna's comment about Jaime being a very wise man :up:


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I understand that the Tyrells are out of the picture with a sound defeat. But why is Dorne out of the picture with the death of their leader? isn't there someone in charge who would still continue the fight?


I suspect if there had been any legitimate contender, Snake Mama would have already killed him. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been able to take over herself.


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## Mike2001 (Apr 2, 2004)

I'm glad Jon didn't bend the knee to that *****. Why is she so hell bent on a symbolic gesture or protocol, when her Navy is being destroyed and her Army is being outflanked?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect if there had been any legitimate contender, Snake Mama would have already killed him. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been able to take over herself.


I get that...but she must have left someone in charge...and that someone would presumably be loyal to her...

Sorry for posting things as I remember them:

1. Bran's demeanor seems strange. I understand you're the three-eyed raven and the responsibility it comes with. But why can't he be happy to see his sister? Also, why is him showing up a surprise? wouldn't the first thing Edd would've done is send a raven to Jon saying "I have your brother, sending him to you"?

2. Nice touch of showing the Lannisters gather up gold after taking over the castle.

3. Euron can't be that stupid, can he? I doubt that he believes Cersei. So my guess is that now he will show up to Dany and offer his services. Dany now needs him.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Mike2001 said:


> I'm glad Jon didn't bend the knee to that *****. Why is she so hell bent on a symbolic gesture or protocol, when her Navy is being destroyed and her Army is being outflanked?


Up until then, she had a ton of allies and a fool-proof plan to crush everyone. She didn't need Jon or the North.

I addition, why not try to bluff your way into complete surrender first? then if he calls her bluff; she at least got the measure of him. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mike2001 said:


> I'm glad Jon didn't bend the knee to that *****. Why is she so hell bent on a symbolic gesture or protocol, when her Navy is being destroyed and her Army is being outflanked?


Because she didn't know?

After she found out about the navy, she gave Jon what he wanted. She still doesn't know about the army. I'd say she's being remarkably adaptive, considering where she's coming from.

By the way, Jon's not very clever so it doesn't really surprise me that he didn't think of it, but what he _should_ have said when she accused him of breaking faith with her family is that _her _family broke faith with _his _when they burned the lord and his heir alive.

A propos of nothing, for probably the first time in GoT history I thought "You go, girl!" to Cersei when she slapped the kiss-o-death on Baby Snake to torture Mama Snake. I guess I can cheer for even a monster when the monster is torturing another monster, as long as I'm convinced Monster #1 will still get hers. Which I am.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

As good as the Sand Snakes were at dealing death, I expected more stoicism with respect to their own. Blubbering?!

I was hoping for Bron too, though.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

My problem with Game of Thrones is I have no idea who I rooting for!!!

Another episode with magnificent performances. Lena Headey and Diana Rigg. OMG. 

I also loved the scene between Littlefinger and Sansa. I have to go back and re-watch that to get a better grasp on his advice to plan for every outcome.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I suppose I liked the Casterly Rock scenes. But Tyrion being out maneuvered again! So where does Dany stand with respect to taking the Iron Throne now? It was hey, you have overwhelming force, but don't want to kill innocents. Now she's lost most of her naval power and the unsullied are stuck (and will soon be starving).

Silly to ask a Maester how long the longest winter was. That sort of thing would be etched in the culture.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Cainebj said:


> I also loved the scene between Littlefinger and Sansa. I have to go back and re-watch that to get a better grasp on his advice to plan for every outcome.


Great advice and now they have Bran who see everything.

I'm not liking the Euron character. Not just because he's an a-hole but because he seems like a wild card that's suddenly been thrown into a carefully crafted narrative that's almost over. Maybe he's had a more prominent story line in the books but to me, in the tv show, he and his magic navy seem like a last minute plot device to move things along in a hurry.

As big a monster that Cercei is, I was on her side when it came to her punishment for Ellaria. I'm just sad it was the prettiest Sand Snake that's going to kick the bucket.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> 2. Nice touch of showing the Lannisters gather up gold after taking over the castle.


I missed that. I'll have to take another look at it, but I really was wondering how it was she intended to repay Braavos within 2 weeks, so that answers that.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> By the way, Jon's not very clever so it doesn't really surprise me that he didn't think of it, but what he _should_ have said when she accused him of breaking faith with her family is that _her _family broke faith with _his _when they burned the lord and his heir alive.


But that would fall under the category of 1 bad leader breaking faith....just like the Umbers and Karstarks. So I don't think it's an argument he could honorably fall back on.



Cainebj said:


> My problem with Game of Thrones is I have no idea who I rooting for!!!


I'm almost hoping for Littlefinger to actually end up being "king of the ashes"...maybe with Varys as hand of the king


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm not liking the Euron character. Not just because he's an a-hole but because he seems like a wild card that's suddenly been thrown into a carefully crafted narrative that's almost over. Maybe he's had a more prominent story line in the books but to me, in the tv show, he and his magic navy seem like a last minute plot device to move things along in a hurry.


But I think his story is pretty consistent and I think foreshadows what will happen again. Years ago they attacked the Lannisters and destroyed the Lannister fleet. But then the thing is....being a Navy is the only thing the Ironborn are really good at, and once the Lannisters actually got to them the Ironborn got their ass kicked, and Euron went into exile. Now he's back, and he's royally kicking ass on the high seas because, for the moment he doesn't have to worry about getting invaded. But now he's got little left to offer anymore, and once Dany is through being preoccupied by the Lannisters, the Ironborn are going to royally get their ass kicked again.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I'm curious on the conversation with Dany and Jon, she says she lost her two brothers and then pointed out that Jon also lost two brothers but at this point, neither she nor Jon have any idea that Bran is alive so wouldn't she says three brothers? Robb, Rickon and Bran?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Wow, does Dany need some military intelligence. With the bulk of the Lannister army on the march, taking Westeros will never be easier. Plus, she's now had 2 Navies wiped out by surprise. No more "little birds". It seems like Tyrion and Varys are doing a really lousy job of military planning.

And I agree with cheesesteak that the smirking Euron character is jarringly bad.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Great advice and now they have Bran who see everything.
> 
> I'm not liking the Euron character. Not just because he's an a-hole but because he seems like a wild card that's suddenly been thrown into a carefully crafted narrative that's almost over. Maybe he's had a more prominent story line in the books but to me, in the tv show, he and his magic navy seem like a last minute plot device to move things along in a hurry.
> 
> As big a monster that Cercei is, I was on her side when it came to her punishment for Ellaria. I'm just sad it was the prettiest Sand Snake that's going to kick the bucket.


I can't root for Cercei, Both are evil for sure, but in so many respects, Cercie is the most evil of all of them (and yes, I'm including Ramsey and Joffrey in that).

I fell asleep toward the end of the episode and woke up with Jamie in Highgarden and had no idea why!! Time for a rewatch before I comment more.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> By the way, Jon's not very clever so it doesn't really surprise me that he didn't think of it, but what he _should_ have said when she accused him of breaking faith with her family is that _her _family broke faith with _his _when they burned the lord and his heir alive.





LordKronos said:


> But that would fall under the category of 1 bad leader breaking faith....just like the Umbers and Karstarks. So I don't think it's an argument he could honorably fall back on.


...Except that he did mention it...

something along the lines of "that oath didn't seem to matter to your father as he was burning my grandfather and uncle alive"...



Cainebj said:


> I also loved the scene between Littlefinger and Sansa. I have to go back and re-watch that to get a better grasp on his advice to plan for every outcome.


This brings up something that I think is important...we're being beaten over the head with that LF speech now...He has said something along these lines (running all the scenarios in his mind -- kind of like millions of simulations -- all possible outcomes can/will happen...etc.) at least 2-3 times. I think it was also repeated in the "previously" sections...that I'm starting to think this is some sort of hint about something. They also went to Bran right after this one - the one who sees everything in the past, present, (and future?).

I don't know what that something is...that we're in a time loop? parallel worlds?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I don't know what that something is...that we're in a time loop? parallel worlds?


Dear God I hope not!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Wow, does Dany need some military intelligence. With the bulk of the Lannister army on the march, taking Westeros will never be easier. Plus, she's now had 2 Navies wiped out by surprise. No more "little birds". It seems like Tyrion and Varys are doing a really lousy job of military planning.
> 
> And I agree with cheesesteak that the smirking Euron character is jarringly bad.


Agree too about Euron. It has that feel of..."how about we add a pirate to the story?" element. But I also feel that they needed to give Cercie something to even up the odds.

Tyrion, to me, is one of those characters who thinks he's MUCH smarter than he really is. He KNOWS his brother and sister, but he completely underestimates them, time and time again.

How I envision the series winding down, is that Cersei and Dany are going to have a series of battles, each getting the upperhand at some point, and then, here comes the Dead who will just annihilate everyone. I could definitely buy into an ending where Littlefinger ultimately rules what's left, or the whole thing completely blowing up, and maybe Jon Snow winning one last battle. It will be interesting, but ultimately, I don't think either the Lannisters, Starks or Targuerians will end up in the end with the power. Each are flawed houses and in so many respects do not deserve to be on the Iron Throne. Love Davos saying something like, in the end, it's just not going to matter who's on the Iron Throne. I think that's a huge foretelling of the future.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

One theory that occurred to me as Dany and Jon were having their various conversations. If we assume the Three-Eyed Raven was able to take Bran into the past because he's the Three-Eyed Raven, and not because Bran was his heir, then Bran should be able to take people into the past as well. That would enable him not only to say that Jon is the actual Targaryen heir but prove it. Which raises the issue of how Dany and Jon will react to that knowledge.

It seems to me that Jon would never want to be King of the Seven Kingdoms. Dany could do what so many have done in similar positions and simply kill Jon, but she has enough core decency that she wouldn't want to do that. So perhaps they come to an arrangement where Jon recognizes Dany as Queen of Westeros, and Dany recognizes Jon as King in the North.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I was a little disappointed in how Dany and Jon behaved. Dany seemed to be a little like her brother, lusting for the iron throne. And Jon displayed a diplomacy he has lacked to this point. (Jon has always been kind and compassionate, but lacking the skills to verbally joust with someone like Dany.)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> I was a little disappointed in how Dany and Jon behaved. Dany seemed to be a little like her brother, lusting for the iron throne. And Jon displayed a diplomacy he has lacked to this point. (Jon has always been kind and compassionate, but lacking the skills to verbally joust with someone like Dany.)


It may have been disappointing, but perfectly in character for both. Remember, Dany, you know nothing (about) Jon Stone! And Jon was kind of out of his depth, as we've come to expect from him. I think by the end of the episode, they had moved into a more productive relationship. There are obviously still things to work out (as I speculated in my previous post), but they're putting aside their obsessions with the past for the moment and moving forward.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I wish there was a way to install Lyanna Mormont on the iron throne. She's better and smarter than all of them.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was nice seeing the dance between Daenerys and Jon ("You brought fire and ice together" indeed!). And with Bran on the scene ("I have to talk to him" indeed!), the relationship between D & J is bound to take an interesting turn sooner than later.


Given that Daenerys came over thinking that she might need marriage to unite the Seven Kingdoms and the North are now her only potential remaining allies, I wonder if things might even head in that direction between her and Jon. I doubt they will end up getting married before Bran comes bursting in to spoil their fun. But it will be interesting to see if it is considered, and how far things go from there.

I guess Daario will be pleased by how things have been going so far.



photoshopgrl said:


> I'm curious on the conversation with Dany and Jon, she says she lost her two brothers and then pointed out that Jon also lost two brothers but at this point, neither she nor Jon have any idea that Bran is alive so wouldn't she says three brothers? Robb, Rickon and Bran?


Jon knows that Bran is alive from Sam. (Or at least was alive. But he has no reason to believe Bran is dead at this point.)



Philosofy said:


> I was a little disappointed in how Dany and Jon behaved. Dany seemed to be a little like her brother, lusting for the iron throne. And Jon displayed a diplomacy he has lacked to this point. (Jon has always been kind and compassionate, but lacking the skills to verbally joust with someone like Dany.)


Jon didn't really get anything from Daenerys, though, until Tyrion convinced her to give him dragonglass as a gesture of good will. As far as Daenerys' attitude is concerned, I don't think she was demonstrating lust for the Iron Throne so much as putting her foot down against a potential usurper.

They don't know each other nearly as much as we know each of them. While we know that they both ultimately have good intentions, they are wary of each other's potential hidden agendas.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Pardon this from a non book reader and a distracted viewer: Are Daenerys and Jon brother and sister?

I am looking forward to the dragons treating Jon differently than others.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Pardon this from a non book reader and a distracted viewer: Are Daenerys and Jon brother and sister?


She is his aunt. (We know this from the show, not from the books yet.)


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

BitbyBlit said:


> Jon knows that Bran is alive from Sam. (Or at least was alive. But he has no reason to believe Bran is dead at this point.)


Can you refresh my memory on this? I don't remember a conversation where this was said on the show (I'm usually a vault at remembering scenes). Does that mean Sansa also then knew Bran was alive? I thought their reunion was more shocking to her thinking he was dead until that moment.


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

Anubys said:


> .
> 
> This brings up something that I think is important...we're being beaten over the head with that LF speech now...He has said something along these lines (running all the scenarios in his mind -- kind of like millions of simulations -- all possible outcomes can/will happen...etc.) at least 2-3 times. I think it was also repeated in the "previously" sections...that I'm starting to think this is some sort of hint about something. They also went to Bran right after this one - the one who sees everything in the past, present, (and future?).
> 
> I don't know what that something is...that we're in a time loop? parallel worlds?


I mean, this is pretty obvious, isn't it? LF lectures Sansa about living life looking at all possibilities all the time, and the very next scene the ability to do that shows up on her doorstep?

I think this is less time loopy stuff and more good old fashioned good versus evil to save the Land type stuff.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Can you refresh my memory on this? I don't remember a conversation where this was said on the show (I'm usually a vault at remembering scenes). Does that mean Sansa also then knew Bran was alive? I thought their reunion was more shocking to her thinking he was dead until that moment.


Well, Sam did meet Bran at one of the abandoned castles*...Bran was trying to find a way past the Wall to get North and Sam was making his way back with his GF and stepson through the secret entrance that Sam read about in a book.

I'm not clear that Sam ever told Jon about the encounter, though. Bran may have sworn him to secrecy. But I'm not sure about that part.

* Edited to add: one of the abandoned night watch castles.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Well, Sam did meet Bran at one of the abandoned castles*...Bran was trying to find a way past the Wall to get North and Sam was making his way back with his GF and stepson through the secret entrance that Sam read about in a book.
> 
> I'm not clear that Sam ever told Jon about the encounter, though. Bran may have sworn him to secrecy. But I'm not sure about that part.
> 
> * Edited to add: one of the abandoned night watch castles.


I remember that scene I just don't remember it being discussed between Jon and Sam. You'd think something that important would be left for us to assume happened??


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Can you refresh my memory on this? I don't remember a conversation where this was said on the show (I'm usually a vault at remembering scenes). Does that mean Sansa also then knew Bran was alive? I thought their reunion was more shocking to her thinking he was dead until that moment.


There wasn't a scene where Sam told Jon. However, Sam met Bran at the end of Season 3. And then at the beginning of Season 4 after Jon had recovered from being shot by Ygritte, they discussed Bran for a short time, with Sam saying that he tried to convince Bran to come back with him, but couldn't. Later, when Jon was talking to Sam about heading to Craster's Keep to take out the mutineers, he mentioned the possibility of Bran stopping there as that was one of the few inhabited places available to him. (This was when Locke overheard them, and decided to go along on the slim chance that he might find Bran.)

So Sansa knew that Bran was at least alive at the time Sam saw him. And she already knew from Theon that he hadn't killed Bran or Rickon. So even before meeting up with Jon, she no longer thought for certain that Bran (or Rickon) was dead.

But Bran was heading north beyond the Wall, and could have easily died up there. So I think her expression was less of shock that Bran was alive and more of joy that he was, in fact, still alive, and now safe and reunited with her again.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

thanks for the reminder about bran!

are people still doing the recap via facebook thing? that was really funny stuff...


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Given that Daenerys came over thinking that she might need marriage to unite the Seven Kingdoms and the North are now her only potential remaining allies, I wonder if things might even head in that direction between her and Jon. I doubt they will end up getting married before Bran comes bursting in to spoil their fun. But it will be interesting to see if it is considered, and how far things go from there.
> 
> I guess Daario will be pleased by how things have been going so far.


The knowledge of the relationship between Dani and Jon will ruin nothing. The Targaryeans married siblings to each other for centuries. Dani thought she was going to marry her brother. That only changed because he wanted the alliance with the Dothraki. She certainly wouldn't get fussed about marrying her nephew.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> She is his aunt. (We know this from the show, not from the books yet.)


Thanks. I wonder what the Westeros ethos (the westerethos) of such things is? In Farsi, instead of insulting somebody by calling them a mother effer, you call them an Aunty effer.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Tsiehta said:


> I mean, this is pretty obvious, isn't it? LF lectures Sansa about living life looking at all possibilities all the time, and the very next scene the ability to do that shows up on her doorstep?


Yeah, that seemed like weirdly sloppy writing for this show. What LF was saying, I expected Sansa to say well sure, it'd be awesome to have a God Mode. And then in the next scene (which had me missing Hodor), well here you go.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

And why doesn't Jon say, "Send someone you trust North with us and we'll show them the Army of the Dead." ?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> The knowledge of the relationship between Dani and Jon will ruin nothing. The Targaryeans married siblings to each other for centuries.


But neither Daenerys nor Jon grew up in a Targaryean household. So they might not be as interested in it as their ancestors. And while the Targaryeans did start out keeping things in the family, later generations began increasingly marrying outside of the family. ("Kids these days!")


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> I'm curious on the conversation with Dany and Jon, she says she lost her two brothers and then pointed out that Jon also lost two brothers but at this point, neither she nor Jon have any idea that Bran is alive so wouldn't she says three brothers? Robb, Rickon and Bran?





BitbyBlit said:


> Jon knows that Bran is alive from Sam. (Or at least was alive. But he has no reason to believe Bran is dead at this point.)


I had the same thought as phtoshopgrl. First, if Jon knows that Bran is alive, he presumably deduced that Rikon is alive. At the very least, it would call Rikon's death into question. I can't remember, but did Bran tell Sam that Rikon was still alive? In any event, if Jon does know that Bran is alive, it has nothing to do with Dany's knowledge. AFAIK, most of the world still thinks that both Bran and Rikon were killed by Theon. Unless there is reason to believe that Tyrion knows different, Dany should have said that Jon had lost three brothers.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> But neither Daenerys nor Jon grew up in a Targaryean household. So they might not be as interested in it as their ancestors. And while the Targaryeans did start out keeping things in the family, later generations began increasingly marrying outside of the family. ("Kids these days!")


Dani grew up thinking she was going to marry her brother. Not sure why you think she didn't grow up with these ideals. The only reason she didn't marry him was he decided a strategic alliance with the Dothraki would further his goal to get the Iron Throne back more than keeping his sister.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

3D said:


> I had the same thought as phtoshopgrl. First, if Jon knows that Bran is alive, he presumably deduced that Rikon is alive. At the very least, it would call Rikon's death into question. I can't remember, but did Bran tell Sam that Rikon was still alive? In any event, if Jon does know that Bran is alive, it has nothing to do with Dany's knowledge. AFAIK, most of the world still thinks that both Bran and Rikon were killed by Theon. Unless there is reason to believe that Tyrion knows different, Dany should have said that Jon had lost three brothers.


Mellisandra was with Jon at the wall and at Winterfell and had a number of private conversation, and now she's at Dragonstone with Dany. I'd just guess she was able to pass along the info (though if she didn't even pass along the part about bringing him back from the dead, then who knows).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> I had the same thought as phtoshopgrl. First, if Jon knows that Bran is alive, he presumably deduced that Rikon is alive. At the very least, it would call Rikon's death into question.


??? Jon watched Rickon die. That's what triggered his disastrous attack in the Battle of the Bastards, which ruined a perfectly good plan.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I'd be surprised if Jon shared anything about Bran with Mellisandra and just as surprised if she spent time talking Stark family gossip with Dany.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ??? Jon watched Rickon die. That's what triggered his disastrous attack in the Battle of the Bastards, which ruined a perfectly good plan.


I totally forgot about that! Ok. last week I reminded you that The Red Wedding was not an episode title, so I guess now we're even.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

BitbyBlit said:


> There wasn't a scene where Sam told Jon. However, Sam met Bran at the end of Season 3. And then at the beginning of Season 4 after Jon had recovered from being shot by Ygritte, they discussed Bran for a short time, with Sam saying that he tried to convince Bran to come back with him, but couldn't. Later, when Jon was talking to Sam about heading to Craster's Keep to take out the mutineers, he mentioned the possibility of Bran stopping there as that was one of the few inhabited places available to him. (This was when Locke overheard them, and decided to go along on the slim chance that he might find Bran.)
> 
> So Sansa knew that Bran was at least alive at the time Sam saw him. And she already knew from Theon that he hadn't killed Bran or Rickon. So even before meeting up with Jon, she no longer thought for certain that Bran (or Rickon) was dead.
> 
> But Bran was heading north beyond the Wall, and could have easily died up there. So I think her expression was less of shock that Bran was alive and more of joy that he was, in fact, still alive, and now safe and reunited with her again.


Ahhh okay you're right I remember the thing with Locke now that's how he found them. Thanks for the refresh!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> One theory that occurred to me as Dany and Jon were having their various conversations. If we assume the Three-Eyed Raven was able to take Bran into the past because he's the Three-Eyed Raven, and not because Bran was his heir, then Bran should be able to take people into the past as well. That would enable him not only to say that Jon is the actual Targaryen heir but prove it. Which raises the issue of how Dany and Jon will react to that knowledge.
> 
> It seems to me that Jon would never want to be King of the Seven Kingdoms. Dany could do what so many have done in similar positions and simply kill Jon, but she has enough core decency that she wouldn't want to do that. So perhaps they come to an arrangement where Jon recognizes Dany as Queen of Westeros, and Dany recognizes Jon as King in the North.


Didn't the previous three eyed Raven take Bran into the past? So my question would be, can the three-eyed raven take ONLY the next 3ER into the past or anyone?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Didn't the previous three eyed Raven take Bran into the past? So my question would be, can the three-eyed raven take ONLY the next 3ER into the past or anyone?


Yes, that was my point. And I'm guessing the answer is "anybody," because that's the only way Bran's knowledge can become useful...


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm not liking the Euron character. Not just because he's an a-hole but because he seems like a wild card that's suddenly been thrown into a carefully crafted narrative that's almost over.





mooseAndSquirrel said:


> And I agree with cheesesteak that the smirking Euron character is jarringly bad.


This type of villain is always in GoT, whether it was King Joffrey or Ramsey Bolton. Someone had to fill that hate-space in the character line-up. I don't like the character because there isn't much there in Euron apart from being the mustache-twirling bad guy.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I suppose I liked the Casterly Rock scenes. But Tyrion being out maneuvered again! So where does Dany stand with respect to taking the Iron Throne now? It was hey, you have overwhelming force, but don't want to kill innocents. Now she's lost most of her naval power and the unsullied are stuck (and will soon be starving).
> 
> Silly to ask a Maester how long the longest winter was. That sort of thing would be etched in the culture.


Yeah, she shoulda just attacked Kings Landing immediately. Oh well.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

How is it that House Tyrell fell so fast and easily?

Was their army on the march North, or just small and/or weak.

And if the Lannisters are all South or dead at Casterly Rock isn't Kings Landing more vulnerable than ever right now?


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> And if the Lannisters are all South or dead at Casterly Rock isn't Kings Landing more vulnerable than ever right now?


King's Landing is very vulnerable. Dany could almost[*] trivially reduce it to rubble. She doesn't, however, want to rule over rubble... She is trying to take the throne without killing everyone.

[*] The big crossbows may be a challenge for the dragons..


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Have Jon, Sansa or Bran asked about Arya? Do they think she's dead or alive? I can't remember.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> How is it that House Tyrell fell so fast and easily?
> 
> Was their army on the march North, or just small and/or weak.
> 
> And if the Lannisters are all South or dead at Casterly Rock isn't Kings Landing more vulnerable than ever right now?


I'm not sure that Kings Landing is more vulnerable now. I don't believe any soldiers have left there. I thought the point that was made was, when casterly rock was taken they said "where is the rest of the army". Then they showed us the forces marching towards highgarden. I took it as the casterly rock forces have moved to highgarden, while the kings landing forces remain there. They aren't moving the army between casterly rock and kings landing. They have the forces to defend both, but the pulled the casterly rock forces to take highgarden. And then I would assume they will next supplement the kings landing forces, or if the highgarden forces had already moved on to kings landing, then the casterly rock forces will hit them from behind.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> are people still doing the recap via facebook thing? that was really funny stuff...


I don't think it's still being done. I looked for it a couple seasons ago and couldn't find it. But if anyone does find it, please post a link here. Those things were hilarious.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

I just read that HBO got hacked and there are now some GoT spoilers in the wild. I haven't heard any but I wanted those who don't want to be spoiled to be aware that they're out there.

Link to story about the hacking. There are no spoilers in that story.

HBO Hacked: Upcoming Episodes, 'Game of Thrones' Data Leaked Online


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

tlc said:


> And why doesn't Jon say, "Send someone you trust North with us and we'll show them the Army of the Dead." ?


I assume because to see them greatly increases your chances of getting killed by them.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

pendragn said:


> I assume because to see them greatly increases your chances of getting killed by them.


This is what I was thinking. You are depending on people being able to see them and live to tell the tale. And in this case it has to be that ONE person has to live. Lots of people have died in their meetings with the White Walkers. Certainly not something to be taken casually.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm reading through my early morning series of news websites when I scrolled past a GoT related headline. This is around 5:30 am, before I watched last night's episode. The headline was something like "Game Of Thrones reunites two siblings." I'm no spoiler weenie but I thought all responsible websites had stopped including spoilers in the headlines for GoT and other tv shows. Since I usually forget that Bran exists, I expected this to be the reunion of Sansa and Arya. It didn't ruin the episode for me or anything like that but still...


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> The knowledge of the relationship between Dani and Jon will ruin nothing. The Targaryeans married siblings to each other for centuries. Dani thought she was going to marry her brother. That only changed because he wanted the alliance with the Dothraki. She certainly wouldn't get fussed about marrying her nephew.


While Dani would be fine with it, I'm not so sure about Jon and those in the North. Obviously it's not ok for Lanisters--life would have been way easier for Cersie if it was.



cheesesteak said:


> Have Jon, Sansa or Bran asked about Arya? Do they think she's dead or alive? I can't remember.


Sansa knows she's alive. Brienne saw her and told Sansa at some point. I would assume Sansa told Jon. Bran probably doesn't care.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

pendragn said:


> I assume because to see them greatly increases your chances of getting killed by them.


You bring two ravens with you. The second you confirm the white walkers you let the one with "Holy Muttonchops, they're real" fly home.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm reading through my early morning series of news websites...before I watched last night's episode


Wow, you're braver than I am - I got burned awhile back (can't recall the show, but maybe GoT) doing just that, so now if I can't watch a show that I want to avoid spoilers of as it airs live, I have a little self-imposed news blackout until I can watch it. In this case, at about 8am, since my wife doesn't like watching it on Sunday evenings.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm reading through my early morning series of news websites when I scrolled past a GoT related headline. This is around 5:30 am, before I watched last night's episode. The headline was something like "Game Of Thrones reunites two siblings." I'm no spoiler weenie but I thought all responsible websites had stopped including spoilers in the headlines for GoT and other tv shows. Since I usually forget that Bran exists, I expected this to be the reunion of Sansa and Arya. It didn't ruin the episode for me or anything like that but still...


I don't know what is consider a responsible website, but you can be assured that Entertainment Weekly will start posting their articles about the episode almost immediately after the show ends in the East, not caring that that it will be several hours before the West Coast watches it (although with HBO Go, I wonder how many West Coasters watch it earlier.) At this point, I get off my computer around 8PM and then wait until my wife and I can watch the episode. We usually watch within an hour or so.


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## JolDC (Dec 21, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> How is it that House Tyrell fell so fast and easily?
> 
> Was their army on the march North, or just small and/or weak.
> 
> And if the Lannisters are all South or dead at Casterly Rock isn't Kings Landing more vulnerable than ever right now?


Jamie turned Lord Tarly who helped rally some under House Tyrell against House Tyrell. This is my inference from Jamie's conversation with Tarly earlier this season and the deliberate shot of Tarly behind Jamie marching on the castle.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> I don't know what is consider a responsible website, but you can be assured that Entertainment Weekly will start posting their articles about the episode almost immediately after the show ends in the East, not caring that that it will be several hours before the West Coast watches it (although with HBO Go, I wonder how many West Coasters watch it earlier.) At this point, I get off my computer around 8PM and then wait until my wife and I can watch the episode. We usually watch within an hour or so.


I don't mind them or anybody else publishing immediate GoT updates. Just don't include spoilers in the article's title.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't mind them or anybody else publishing immediate GoT updates. Just don't include spoilers in the article's title.


They definitely shouldn't but you're playing with dragon fire that they won't.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

morac said:


> Not really. They skipped the battle because the Tyrel army was basically crushed and it wasn't relevant to the scene.


Which is really strange and un-GOT like since they spent like a half hour or 45 minutes of repetitive cgi zombie killing in Hardhome and another similar sized chunk of time piling up bodies in Battle of the Bastards. Maybe someone convinced them they needed to actually move the story along because they have fewer episodes this year .


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

So the wall must be really, really close to Winterfell if Bran got there before Arya. I mean Arya is on a horse and Bran is being dragged on a sledge by one woman. (Hey! This is almost like one of those math quiz problems about travel time of different vehicles on different paths .


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

tomhorsley said:


> So the wall must be really, really close to Winterfell if Bran got there before Arya. I mean Arya is on a horse and Bran is being dragged on a sledge by one woman. (Hey! This is almost like one of those math quiz problems about travel time of different vehicles on different paths .


Yes, it is.

Winterfell is almost right in the middle of The North (slightly closer to The Wall than the southern border with The Riverlands). Arya was at The Inn at the Crossroads (which is in the south of the Riverlands) when she found out about Jon and turned north.

Arya would need to cross most of the Riverlands and half of the North to reach Winterfell. Bran would only have needed to cross half the North to get there. Also, he wasn't being dragged by Meera anymore. He was in the back of a horse-drawn wagon when they got to Winterfell.

Bran also had a head start. He arrived at the Wall at the start of Episode one (when Arya was still at the Twins before heading south), and was probably already most of the way to Winterfell before Arya even decided to head north.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)




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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Would have been even funnier had they spelled his name correctly...


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

tl;dw Season 7, Episode 3: Tainted Love

Enjoy!


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I enjoyed it. I am sure there was a small and subtle reference to the Walking Dead by Tyrion 

To the person above with the detailed timelines, the show has been pretty clear that timelines are not necessarily in sync and they put the storytelling before the time logic. Not sure why the wall people did not send someone with Bran though.

Could all be wrapped in the next episode at the speed they are going LOL.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Would have been even funnier had they spelled his name correctly...


My thoughts exactly.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I loved this episode precisely because (a) it really moved things along, and (b) it was by far the funniest episode we've seen in a while, if not ever.

Tyrion's "brooding" with Jon was the best but there were other funny bits too. Well done!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> In this case, at about 8am, since my wife doesn't like watching it on Sunday evenings.


Might be time to rethink that wife.



TriBruin said:


> wait until my wife and I can watch the episode. We usually watch within an hour or so.


You could ask TriBruin if his wife has a sister.



Lord Snow said:


> tl;dw Season 7, Episode 3: Tainted Love
> 
> Enjoy!


Thanks for sharing. I liked the old FB ones better.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> Dani grew up thinking she was going to marry her brother. Not sure why you think she didn't grow up with these ideals.


Ah, I wasn't aware of that. But did she see that as normal or something that her brother was forcing upon her? And this would be something that would need to appeal to Jon as well.

Also, if knowledge about Jon became public, then even if they both didn't mind marrying relatives, it wouldn't serve much of a political purpose since Jon would lose all claim to the North.

I do see one path that could lead to marriage even if neither of them wanted it, however. If Daenerys and Jon both found out the truth about Jon's heritage, then Daenerys would know her claim to the throne would be lost. But if they felt confident that the knowledge could be kept private, then they might agree to marry simply to unite their groups.

Jon doesn't care about the Iron Throne, and Daenerys would give him the North, leaving her more than she would have gotten had Jon made a claim for the throne. Daenerys could have a child with Daario, but claim it was Jon's.

One potential issue with this is that I'm not sure how the Westerosi would feel about a married couple living and ruling separately. But perhaps this would only need to last long enough to fight the White Walkers.

That being said, I think it is more likely than not that marriage won't end up happening between them.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jon's claim to the Iron Throne only holds water if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. Otherwise he's just Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's. And as of yet we have no evidence, either in the books or in the show, that they were married.


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## gbshuler (Feb 25, 2008)

morac said:


> Not really. They skipped the battle because the Tyrel army was basically crushed and it wasn't relevant to the scene.


Show creators David Benoiff and D.B. Weiss explain the sequence of the overthrowing of Highgarden (and House Tyrell) in an "Inside Look" at Episode 3 of Season 7 of Game of Thrones:

David:
"they're [the Tyrells] the wealthiest house but fighting is not really their forte. I mean they're just not known for being the most fearsome warriors so to have a long/extended battle there didn't make a lot of sense."
D.B.:
"We decided to cut to the chase.. [to] cut right to Jaime single-mindedly making his way to see the person he's there to see (which is Olenna Tyrell)"

Olenna: "It's done."
Jaime: "It is."


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> Daenerys could have a child with Daario, but claim it was Jon's.


Daenerys can't have children, so that wouldn't be an issue.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Jon's claim to the Iron Throne only holds water if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. Otherwise he's just Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's. And as of yet we have no evidence, either in the books or in the show, that they were married.


We know that Rhaegar was married to Elia Martel.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> We know that Rhaegar was married to Elia Martel.


But we don't know if he also eloped with Lyssa. We do know that normal marriage laws didn't always apply to the Targaryens (i.e., brothers and sisters could marry), so it's possible he was legitimately married to Lyssa as well.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Would have been even funnier had they spelled his name correctly...


Although now that I think about it, why would the Starbucks drone spell it correctly?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But we don't know if he also eloped with Lyssa. We do know that normal marriage laws didn't always apply to the Targaryens (i.e., brothers and sisters could marry), so it's possible he was legitimately married to Lyssa as well.


Question about that: In season 1, Cersei and Ned had a heated discussion about that. Didn't Cersei say that they "used" to do that but that they stopped?

Also, didn't Tywin also imply that the practice is disgusting and that even the Targarians stopped doing it (when he and Cersei were arguing back in season 5 or so)?

I have no doubt how Ned and Tywin (and everyone else) felt about such a practice; but is that something even the Targarians had stopped practicing?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Remember, Dany, you know nothing (about) Jon Stone!





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Would have been even funnier had they spelled his name correctly...


At least the cup didn't say Jon Stone.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Daenerys's parents were brother and sister, and her grandparents, so the practice was still in full effect at the end of the dynasty (although her brother married outside the family, as happened from time to time through the generations).

By the way, I see that royal polygamy was practiced...not recently and much less commonly that incest, but occasionally. In the books, with regard to Daenerys it is raised as technically possible a couple of times.


LordKronos said:


> At least the cup didn't say Jon Stone.


Heh. Well, I guess a little irony never killed anybody...


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Apparently all it takes to cure greyscale is some forceps and some Unguentine.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Daenerys can't have children, so that wouldn't be an issue.


Oh yeah, I had completely forgotten about that. So even if she does end up on the Iron Throne, her dynasty is going to be short-lived.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> By the way, I see that royal polygamy was practiced...not recently and much less commonly that incest, but occasionally.


Those involved in polygamous relationships included Aegon the Conqueror, who married both of his sisters. So there's definitely a precedence there.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Daenerys can't have children, so that wouldn't be an issue.


Literally.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Would have been even funnier had they spelled his name correctly...


It's actually funnier with the name misspelled, given how it happens often at Starbucks.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dtle said:


> It's actually funnier with the name misspelled, given how it happens often at Starbucks.


I'm not a coffee person, but that did eventually occur to me...


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

The conversation between Melisandre and Varys was interesting. I'm curious what her purpose will be in returning to Westeros. So far her two biggest contributions have been burning people alive and bringing the dead back to life. I wonder, does this work on dragons?

Perhaps Daenerys does succeed in taking the Iron Throne, but at the cost of all her dragons being killed. Also, at some point during the war, because Varys wanted to protect the realm, he went against one of Daenerys' orders (or betrays her in some other manner) in order to help Jon.

They may or may not have accomplished their goals, but both Jon and Varys were captured by Daenerys. And, as she promised to Varys, Daenerys decides to punish him by burning him alive. She also decides that Jon should meet the same fate.

Melisandre returns, and suggests to Daenerys that she might have a means to bring her dragons back to life. To accomplish this, however, would require three people to be offered to the Lord of Light.

Daenerys agrees because she has nothing to lose, but asks who the third person should be. Melisandre offers herself, saying that it is penance for her past sins.

Melisandre, Varys, and Jon are all put inside a giant pyre, and it is lit on fire. As the flames consume them, Melisandre's final words are her attempt to give the dragons life once again.

For a short time, not much can be heard above the roaring fire. But then the ground shakes as one of the dragons begins to rise. This is soon followed by the other two. All three let out shrieks, then spread out their wings, and take flight.

People look up in awe, watching the dragons circle overhead. As they swoop down and pass near the fire, the wind from their wings makes the flames dance hypnotically. In the excitement over the dragons' return, few notice the figure approaching until he is almost right in front of them.

It is a naked, unburnt Jon Snow.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Daenerys can't have children, so that wouldn't be an issue.


We know this? Just based on what happened with Cal Drogo (part of the University of California public university system)?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Do we know the genders of the three dragons? Seems they need to do some good ol' fashioned incesting and make some more eggs.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

BitbyBlit said:


> It is a naked, unburnt Jon Snow.


Sunday night my wife and I were discussing how Jon's Targaryenness would manifest itself and were thinking about something along this lines. Someone tries to set him on fire and fails.

For a long time I have thought that in "A Song of Ice and Fire" that Jon was the Ice and Dany was the fire. It was nice to see Varys make a reference to that.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Daenerys can't have children, so that wouldn't be an issue.


Do we really know that? Not so sure based on her one failed attempt. It could be that the witch cursed her and caused the deformity. And the birth was premature. It could be that the baby was still forming and needed a lot more time to fully develop....perhaps that's what fetus Dany looked like at one point in the gestation process and what we saw in that baby was somehow related to the fire resistance that Dany exhibits.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

pendragn said:


> Sunday night my wife and I were discussing how Jon's Targaryenness would manifest itself and were thinking about something along this lines. Someone tries to set him on fire and fails.


Dany is completely unfazed by heat/fire. On the other hand, back in...I think it was late season 1...when the dead body in castle black turns into a wight, Jon burns the wight with the lantern and in the process burns his own hand.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Dany is completely unfazed by heat/fire. On the other hand, back in...I think it was late season 1...when the dead body in castle black turns into a wight, Jon burns the wight with the lantern and in the process burns his own hand.


I remember that scene, but I can't remember exactly how Jon fared. I may go back and try to find it.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

It seems more likely to me that he'll get some unexpected "face time" with one of the dragons ...and wind up with a new friend


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Do we really know that? Not so sure based on her one failed attempt. It could be that the witch cursed her and caused the deformity. And the birth was premature. It could be that the baby was still forming and needed a lot more time to fully develop....perhaps that's what fetus Dany looked like at one point in the gestation process and what we saw in that baby was somehow related to the fire resistance that Dany exhibits.


That's what the witch told her, and that's what she believes. The witch could have been misleading her, but if she was, then Drogo is coming back...


LordKronos said:


> Dany is completely unfazed by heat/fire. On the other hand, back in...I think it was late season 1...when the dead body in castle black turns into a wight, Jon burns the wight with the lantern and in the process burns his own hand.


Of course, that was when he was still alive. Now that he's dead, things may be different.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Daenerys can't have children, so that wouldn't be an issue.


Wait what? When was this determined?? Was it the witch she burned that did it or something else I have forgotten?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Also if John's true parentage comes out wouldn't that give him more right to the throne? Right now he's only Ned's bastard and Ned had no claims to anything but being warden of the north but if it comes out then he's half Stark half Targaryen that would give him more rights than he has now but less than a true Targaryen like Dany? No?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Wait what? When was this determined?? Was it the witch she burned that did it or something else I have forgotten?


Yeah, she put a curse on Dany, part of which was barrenness.


photoshopgrl said:


> Also if John's true parentage comes out wouldn't that give him more right to the throne? Right now he's only Ned's bastard and Ned had no claims to anything but being warden of the north but if it comes out then he's half Stark half Targaryen that would give him more rights than he has now but less than a true Targaryen like Dany? No?


Depends on whether Rhaeghar and Lyssa married. If so, then he is unequivocally the heir. If not, then only if he can take it by force.

Which, of course, has worked for Cersei. But Jon doesn't seem to be the type.


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## jeepair (Apr 22, 2004)

Wonder if Sam is going to find a marriage license for Rhaeghar and Lyssa in the papers he needs to re-copy? 

On the battle of High Garden, that was a pitiful small force taking a castle. They should have panned left and right to show additional tercio's approaching. Even then, several defenders should be able to handle 50? 100? attackers so a small garrison at High Garden should be able to repel the attackers pretty easily. 

Hope Bronn returns in time to save "Bad kitty".


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Depends on whether Rhaeghar and Lyssa married. If so, then he is unequivocally the heir. If not, then only if he can take it by force.


After Robert took the throne from the Targaryens doesn't that kill any Targaryen claims to the throne?



jeepair said:


> Wonder if Sam is going to find a marriage license for Rhaeghar and Lyssa in the papers he needs to re-copy?


Clearly Sam will find something of importance in there. The story is spending a lot of precious time covering him, so he certainly has more significance. My question is will the thing he find be an accident, or did the Arch Maester have him copy those scrolls knowing there was a treasure in there for him?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> It seems more likely to me that he'll get some unexpected "face time" with one of the dragons ...and wind up with a new friend


Yeah, he'll be riding dragons by episode 6.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> After Robert took the throne from the Targaryens doesn't that kill any Targaryen claims to the throne?


No, it just makes it harder for any Targaryens to exercise their claim. But it would be hard to argue that the Targaryens don't have overall a better claim than the "Baratheons," especially given the increasingly common knowledge that the last two Baratheon kings were bastards having no Baratheon blood.

At this point, the throne is wide open...Cersei has no claim aside from the point of her sword, and Dany (or Jon) is the person currently closest in succession to a ruling monarch.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Depends on whether Rhaeghar and *Lyssa* married. If so, then he is unequivocally the heir. If not, then only if he can take it by force.
> 
> Which, of course, has worked for Cersei. But Jon doesn't seem to be the type.


You keep saying Lyssa, but Lyssa is the woman who used to throw people through the Moon Door at the Aerie. Jon's mother is named Lyanna.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Eh, all those Northern Ly-women sound alike.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Interesting interview with Isaac Hempstead-Wright (Bran) on being the TER. There aren't any direct spoilers, but just the fact that he talks about certain subjects means they MAY be spoilers. So to be safe...


Spoiler: interview with "Bran"



*Isaac Hempstead-Wright Talks to Us About Being the Three-Eyed Raven *

At the end of Season 2, Bran Stark left Winterfell with a retinue aimed at helping him find safety with Jon Snow, then at Castle Black, and to find his supernatural guru the Three-Eyed Raven. It didn't go well. Jojen, Hodor, Osha, Rickon, the Three-Eyed Raven, the Children of the Forest and two direwolves lost their lives, in part, because of Bran's quest and the mistakes he made along the way.

On Sunday, the little lord (Isaac Hempstead-Wright) finally returned home, where he made a beeline to the godswood to catch up on his favorite shows on the Weirwood tree network and freak out one of his sisters in the process. We spoke to Hempstead-Wright earlier this month in Los Angeles about his character's visions, including the Tower of Joy sequence, which revealed how Rhaegar Targaryen's men had guarded Lyanna Stark while she gave birth to Jon Snow. Following are edited excerpts from that conversation.

*Bran hasn't really seen much of his family in a very long time. Now that they're finally getting a reunion, none of them are who they used to be.*
The Starks offered this ideal of a happy medieval family - a kind, compassionate family who care about people, who think about things, who are honest. Then we see that honesty is their downfall, and everything goes down the toilet. They all went off in splinter units from the original mother ship. I doubt whether any of them have been focusing that much on a reunion, although that's why Bran went north originally, in the first place - to find Jon.

*Bran's big revelation coming out of Season 6, of course, is that R + L = J.*
Finally! Finally confirmed. Who knows that information is pretty important for how "Game of Thrones" moves forward. With Bran's now being the Three-Eyed Raven, this needs to be delivered to the right people, at the right time. So Bran's got a lot of thinking to do on that front. He needs to keep a very level head.

*Understandably, some folks are concerned about Bran's having been marked by the Night King.*
Yeah. Being marked by the Night King isn't great news for Bran. But arguably, the more interesting knowledge that Bran has is the origin of the White Walkers. How he proceeds from here, it could be very, very important. It could be catastrophic, or it could end up saving the day.

*Being marked by the Night King is what revoked the magical wards at the cave and allowed the dead to pass. The same kinds of wards guard the Wall.*
I know, I know. [Laughs] The whole question then is, is that going to &#8230;

*&#8230; bring down the Wall?*
I don't think that would be the best thing to happen! Bran would not feel great about that! But I think Bran has now, in many ways, transcended that. I think he understands fate, in, like, a deterministic way, and he does know that if he lets the White Walkers in, that's meant to be. He knows how he's going to have to proceed from there. Or at least, one would hope.

*One hopes he's been able to process all the information he's downloading. And the lesson of what happened to Hodor &#8230;*
Don't worry, he's learned that one! If anyone needed a "Doctor Who"-like lesson on not messing with time, that was it! Hodor was a big, friendly giant who wouldn't hurt a fly, and we saw how catastrophically that ended, how Bran messed that up. But it's almost like a subconscious thing. Bran's got this mystical power within him, and it's crucially important - to be able to know everything your enemies are doing, to be able to work out what's going to happen.
Another interesting point to consider: Would he have had these abilities if he hadn't fallen from the tower? Who knows? Maybe Bran could go back in time, _not _get pushed out of a window, stop everything, and we'll just start over again.

Isaac Hempstead-Wright Talks to Us About Being the Three-Eyed Raven

At the end of Season 2, Bran Stark left Winterfell with a retinue aimed at helping him find safety with Jon Snow, then at Castle Black, and to find his supernatural guru the Three-Eyed Raven. It didn't go well. Jojen, Hodor, Osha, Rickon, the Three-Eyed Raven, the Children of the Forest and two direwolves lost their lives, in part, because of Bran's quest and the mistakes he made along the way.
On Sunday, the little lord (Isaac Hempstead-Wright) finally returned home, where he made a beeline to the godswood to catch up on his favorite shows on the Weirwood tree network and freak out one of his sisters in the process. We spoke to Hempstead-Wright earlier this month in Los Angeles about his character's visions, including the Tower of Joy sequence, which revealed how Rhaegar Targaryen's men had guarded Lyanna Stark while she gave birth to Jon Snow. Following are edited excerpts from that conversation.
*Bran hasn't really seen much of his family in a very long time. Now that they're finally getting a reunion, none of them are who they used to be.*
The Starks offered this ideal of a happy medieval family - a kind, compassionate family who care about people, who think about things, who are honest. Then we see that honesty is their downfall, and everything goes down the toilet. They all went off in splinter units from the original mother ship. I doubt whether any of them have been focusing that much on a reunion, although that's why Bran went north originally, in the first place - to find Jon.
*Bran's big revelation coming out of Season 6, of course, is that R + L = J.*
Finally! Finally confirmed. Who knows that information is pretty important for how "Game of Thrones" moves forward. With Bran's now being the Three-Eyed Raven, this needs to be delivered to the right people, at the right time. So Bran's got a lot of thinking to do on that front. He needs to keep a very level head.
*Understandably, some folks are concerned about Bran's having been marked by the Night King.*
Yeah. Being marked by the Night King isn't great news for Bran. But arguably, the more interesting knowledge that Bran has is the origin of the White Walkers. How he proceeds from here, it could be very, very important. It could be catastrophic, or it could end up saving the day.
*Being marked by the Night King is what revoked the magical wards at the cave and allowed the dead to pass. The same kinds of wards guard the Wall.*
I know, I know. [Laughs] The whole question then is, is that going to &#8230;
*&#8230; bring down the Wall?*
I don't think that would be the best thing to happen! Bran would not feel great about that! But I think Bran has now, in many ways, transcended that. I think he understands fate, in, like, a deterministic way, and he does know that if he lets the White Walkers in, that's meant to be. He knows how he's going to have to proceed from there. Or at least, one would hope.
*One hopes he's been able to process all the information he's downloading. And the lesson of what happened to Hodor &#8230;*
Don't worry, he's learned that one! If anyone needed a "Doctor Who"-like lesson on not messing with time, that was it! Hodor was a big, friendly giant who wouldn't hurt a fly, and we saw how catastrophically that ended, how Bran messed that up. But it's almost like a subconscious thing. Bran's got this mystical power within him, and it's crucially important - to be able to know everything your enemies are doing, to be able to work out what's going to happen.
Another interesting point to consider: Would he have had these abilities if he hadn't fallen from the tower? Who knows? Maybe Bran could go back in time, _not _get pushed out of a window, stop everything, and we'll just start over again.

[Laughs] *- Jennifer Vineyard*


*
*


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Wait what? When was this determined?? Was it the witch she burned that did it or something else I have forgotten?


In one of the scenes when Danaerys was being held captives by the Dothraki she told her captors that she will never bear children. Doesn't make it true I guess, but at the time she also told them she would kill them (or words to that effect) so I tend to believe her. 

tta


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

pendragn said:


> . My question is will the thing he find be an accident, or did the Arch Maester have him copy those scrolls knowing there was a treasure in there for him?


Since he found the greyscale cure by accident I think this discovery will be on purpose.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

i think the task of re-writing the scrolls is on purpose - educationally for sam - who knows what he'll find?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

"Watch out for the paper mites. They like flesh as well."


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NorthAlabama said:


> i think the task of re-writing the scrolls is on purpose - educationally for sam - who knows what he'll find?


"For punishment, I'm going to make you read some very old books, very carefully."

Either he doesn't know Sam at all, or he's helping him out.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> i think the task of re-writing the scrolls is on purpose - educationally for sam - who knows what he'll find?


At least Sam is off poop detail.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

cheesesteak said:


> At least Sam is off poop detail.


I'm sure we'll see that editing gag (cutting from close ups of gross stuff to food) one more time before the season's over.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> I'm sure we'll see that editing gag (cutting from close ups of gross stuff to food) one more time before the season's over.


Not sure about that. Usually that's something a director makes the decision on, and usually they have directors helm two episodes per season. Mark Mylod was the director of Stormborn, which had several of those notable cuts, and he was also the director of this episode. So we won't be seeing any more of his direction this season.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Ho door was a nice touch.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

tivotvaddict said:


> In one of the scenes when Danaerys was being held captives by the Dothraki she told her captors that she will never bear children. Doesn't make it true I guess, but at the time she also told them she would kill them (or words to that effect) so I tend to believe her.
> 
> tta


And she quoted something she heard from the witch back when Drogo died. "When the sun rises in the West and sets in the East" or something like that.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Okay, I have to admit I wasn't aware Bran actually has the ability to travel through time and effect changes. I thought he was simply able to go back as an observer. In the Bran "spoiler" interview on the previous page it intimates that his time travel was the cause of Hodor being "transformed" at a young age and eventually killed. Can someone please explain that to me?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ADG said:


> Okay, I have to admit I wasn't aware Bran actually has the ability to travel through time and effect changes. I thought he was simply able to go back as an observer. In the Bran "spoiler" interview on the previous page it intimates that his time travel was the cause of Hodor being "transformed" at a young age and eventually killed. Can someone please explain that to me?


Bran and the elder 3-eyed raven were visiting Winterfell in the past when the Night King started his attack on the cave. Hodor was paralyzed with fear and Meera kept trying to wake Bran up...Bran needed to warg into Hodor so Hodor could pull Bran's sled (with Bran in it) and run to safety. Once they got through the door, Bran left Hodor's mind and Meera yelled at Hodor to "Hold the Door"; a command that reverberated through time and left Willis in a seizure screaming "hold the door" as a teenager...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh, and we also saw Ned react to Bran screaming at Ned...Ned turned around and saw nothing...this was as Ned was climbing up to the tower to find his sister dying...


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Oh, and we also saw Ned react to Bran screaming at Ned...Ned turned around and saw nothing...this was as Ned was climbing up to the tower to find his sister dying...


Yes, I remembered that and looked at it as an anomaly, not the ability for Bran to actually do anything in the past.

Regarding your previous post, thanks for that. I'm not sure I follow the part about "Hold the Door" reverberating through time, but okay - it's certainly better than any other explanation I can think of


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ADG said:


> Yes, I remembered that and looked at it as an anomaly, not the ability for Bran to actually do anything in the past.
> 
> Regarding your previous post, thanks for that. I'm not sure I follow the part about "Hold the Door" reverberating through time, but okay - it's certainly better than any other explanation I can think of


Well, Bran actually took over Willis' brain in the past (cause that's where he was at the time). So it seems like the link between teenager Willis and present-day Hodor remained open. In fact, when the Night King killed the 3-eyed raven, he died and turned into hundreds of black ravens as he stood there in the past in Winterfell. So because they were still linked to the past, Willis got his mind scrambled and turned into Hodor.

IOW, Bran can certainly affect the past. We know he can warg into animals and thought he could warg into Hodor because Hodor was "simple-minded". But now we know that he could warg into a perfectly normal Willis (but did he do it through the simple mind of Hodor?)...

ok...I just got cross-eyed thinking about it


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Yeah, it's right up there with me trying to understand some of the time travel contradictions in some sci fi shows . Regardless, as I said your explanation is as good as any at this point. Thanks again.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Ho door was a nice touch.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I meant the one at Casterly Rock.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I meant the one at Casterly Rock.


nice :up:


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I'm still bothered by House Tyrell falling so quickly and easily.

Lannister Armies had been doing lots of fighting lately. Riverlands, Twins, defending Casterly Rock, the Ginger Singer and crew in the middle of nowhere, etc. etc.

Now perhaps that all happened over the course of a long period of time and some soldiers were at each of them. But the Lannister's were taking losses all the way. Robb Stark killed thousands, more lost at Casterly Rock. Many lost at Battle of Blackwater.

Using my handy-dandy GOT Army Size web site: Who Has the Biggest Army on 'Game of Thrones'?

I see that House Tyrell has/had 80,000 (plus ships). And they were preparing for war. They were probably more ready than ever for war.

I see that House Lannister has 60,000.

I'm still not buying that House Tyrell fell so fast. More men, a defensive structure, ready for war...

If the writers of the show just didn't want to stage a battle, or it was unimportant to the storyline, that's fine I guess.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ADG said:


> Yeah, it's right up there with me trying to understand some of the time travel contradictions in some sci fi shows . Regardless, as I said your explanation is as good as any at this point. Thanks again.


That episode pretty clearly showed us that Willis/Hodor was a perfectly normal kid, not simple minded at all, until Bran, while visiting the past, warged into young Willis and basically fried his brain, which is why he became simple minded and never spoke another word other than "Hodor." How did you interpret what happened so as not to think that Bran caused what happened to Willis/Hodor in the past?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I'm still bothered by House Tyrell falling so quickly and easily.
> 
> Lannister Armies had been doing lots of fighting lately. Riverlands, Twins, defending Casterly Rock, the Ginger Singer and crew in the middle of nowhere, etc. etc.
> 
> ...


But we have no reason to believe that all of the Tyrell forces were at Highgarden. We may find in future episodes that although their home was taken over, the bulk of the army was already on the move and will still play a role in the battle for King's Landing.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

This is where you get into time travel connundrums. Hodor was the way he was because Bran had ALREADY done something to him in HIS past. It was Bran's future. Bran didn't change anything. Things played out as they had already.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> But we have no reason to believe that all of the Tyrell forces were at Highgarden. We may find in future episodes that although their home was taken over, the bulk of the army was already on the move and will still play a role in the battle for King's Landing.


We also have no reason to believe it wasn't a hard-fought, bitter battle that took days...we simply fast forwarded to who won and the consequences...


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> This is where you get into time travel connundrums. Hodor was the way he was because Bran had ALREADY done something to him in HIS past. It was Bran's future. Bran didn't change anything. Things played out as they had already.


My head will hurt in my future.


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

*Jon Snow*: I died and got resurrected.
*Bran*: I can see the past, present, and future.
*Arya*: I am no one.
*Sansa*: THE F**k


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Sieges of castles take a long time. Not for Jaime. *shrug*

Perhaps Randell Tyrell defecting from Tyrell to Lannister not only shifted the army sizes significantly but also exposed Tyrell secrets and provided help inside the castle to Jaime.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

... and they had Bronn


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

For those like uncdrew who can't let it go, here's the scene.

The castle looks very defendable. At the 0:38 mark.

The Lannister force looks very small. At the 0:43 mark.






It's a good scene between the two.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Saturn_V said:


> I'm sure we'll see that editing gag (cutting from close ups of gross stuff to food) one more time before the season's over.


I don't think so. Sam proved himself with the Greyscale cure and got a promotion. From a 0 to 1 on a scale of 1 to 100, but a promotion all the same.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Good riddance to all the Sand Snakes. Dorne has always been the weakest story in GoT.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> Good riddance to all the Sand Snakes. Dorne has always been the weakest story in GoT.


I was not at all a fan of the Braavos storyline and the girl with no name crap. I like what it lets the story do now, but it was snoresville to me all through Season 5-6.

Dorne is fairly lousy too, but The Viper makes up for a lot of it. Loved Oberyn.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I loved how Dany called Tyrion about trying to pass-off his words as those from old wise men :up:

and I miss Clegane's one liners and insults.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> The Lannister force looks very small. At the 0:43 mark.


Really? Maybe small by US army standards or something, but it's actually a pretty good size.

In the following screenshot, we can see see all the little blocks. From the angle, it's very hard to tell how many men deep (front to back) each block is but it looks like at least 6 men deep. but we can see the blocks are about 12 men wide, and we can see (by my best count) about 94 full size blocks, about 8 half size blocks (same width but half as deep) and then 7 blocks of cavalry (about 40 cavalry per block)










In this screenshot we can see each of those blocks is about 10 men deep, but you can also see the composition is different (the front row blocks have cavalry immediately behind them, which you don't see above), so it's inconsistent.










So for the depth we seem to have 6 to 10 men per block. So lets assume 10 men per block.

Full size blocks: 94 * 10 * 12
Half size blocks: 8 * 5 * 12
Cavalry: 7 * 40

So that's 12040 soldiers. If we go with the 6 instead of 10, its still 7336. Either size is a fairly good size army. Comparing it to other army's, I don't recall what numbers (if any) we've heard lately, but I recall we had a discussion about this back in season 5 and I had looked up numbers then:

Game of Thrones - S5E10 "Mother's Mercy" *Spoilers*

Tyrell: 50k during blackwater
Lannister: under 20k
Kings Guard: under 10k
Robb's army: 20k
Drogo's Dothraki: 40k

Obviously numbers have changed over time, but there you can see the size of typical armies, which doesn't put the 7-12k Lannisters as that small of a force. However, one question is how much have the Tyrell army shrunk in that time? Even if they shrunk in half to 25k, losing to an army 1/2 to 1/4 the size, even with the advantage of defending a castle, would be pretty bad. I know they said the Tyrell army weren't the best fighters, but still....which sort of makes me think a large portion of their army might have actually been on the way to Kings Landing as planned.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

I assume the Tyrell army's original size includes those who serve all the lesser houses who were sworn to the Tyrells. Once the lesser houses switched allegiance to back Cersei, the Tyrell forces would have been reduced significantly while the Lannister forces would have been bolstered.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I know we're not supposed to think about timelines but the Arch Maester only speaking to Sam about what he had done after a number of days had passed and Mormont was mostly recovered seemed odd.

I liked Tyrions reference to The Walking Dead (I might already have said that).

I hope we don't get too much time travel and 3 eyed raven stuff.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

You know I've never enjoyed Bran's story but book readers told me it got better and was a huge part of the books. I still don't enjoy the actor or the three eyed raven storyline. I get that it's entwined in the Knight King but I don't don't like it. Also the actor seems to get worse each season. I feel like I'm the only person that feels this way. 

About the character. Why is he so dead inside. Just because he's the three eyed raven he's unable to have feelings? Unable to be happy to see his sister? It's like he's be lobotomized and if I'm Sansa I'd run from him too. The fact that he sat there describing that night to her saying how beautiful she was. That was downright creepy.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> About the character. Why is he so dead inside. Just because he's the three eyed raven he's unable to have feelings? Unable to be happy to see his sister? It's like he's be lobotomized and if I'm Sansa I'd run from him too. The fact that he sat there describing that night to her saying how beautiful she was. That was downright creepy.


As he himself said, his problem is that he's simply overwhelmed. He sees too much, and hasn't learned to handle it yet.

He was supposed to go through a period of training, but that was curtailed by the death of his predecessor. (Which, of course, was his own damn fault!)


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I don't like the actor either. Not sure why.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> As he himself said, his problem is that he's simply overwhelmed. He sees too much, and hasn't learned to handle it yet.
> 
> He was supposed to go through a period of training, but that was curtailed by the death of his predecessor. (Which, of course, was his own damn fault!)


Which kind of doesn't make sense since they implied that he also knows what's going to happen (he repeatedly told Bran that he knew that this or that was going to happen).

I also don't like the actor and was put-off by how dead inside he's playing it (I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread). I don't see why you being overwhelmed prevents a person from also being happy to see your sister. I also don't see how he can talk about her wedding when he knows what happened later that night. That's not overwhelmed; that's just stupid.


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## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

Regarding the ease at which the Tyrell army was defeated:

Perhaps the Tyrell's had a (disgruntled) dwarf in their castle who smuggled in prostitutes and knew of a secret passage through the gutters allowing the Lannister army to easily storm the castle?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I also don't see how he can talk about her wedding when he knows what happened later that night. That's not overwhelmed; that's just stupid.


I don't remember the scene well enough to say for certain, but I thought it was his way of telling her he knew what she'd been through without explicitly saying "sorry about all that raping".


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> I don't remember the scene well enough to say for certain, but I thought it was his way of telling her he knew what she'd been through without explicitly saying "sorry about all that raping".


I usually watch each episode twice but this week has gotten away from me so I can't be sure...but I had a very different memory of that scene. I'll concede that maybe he was trying to tell her how much he loved her and to remember the good things about that night. But, since you're a woman, I'll ask you how you would feel if your brother/husband told you to forget the raping and just remember how hot you looked that night!


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

I thought he was talking about a wedding yet to happen, "you looked so beautiful in your white dress"

This doesn't look white to me, am I being too picky?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Raisltin Majere said:


> I thought he was talking about a wedding yet to happen, "you looked so beautiful in your white dress"
> 
> This doesn't look white to me, am I being too picky?


Looks white enough to me.

I took it the same way as robin. Bran said sorry you had to go through that all here in your home, and then proceeded to explain what it was like that night to demonstrate he saw it (wonder how many times that creeper went back to see it again) rather than just heard about it


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

Either Cersei and Jamie are really smart and shrewd tacticians or Dany has a spy in her inner circle.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)




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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

On the one hand, describing the details of rape night is probably the best way to convince her that he truly has the ability to see things. 

On the other hand....I wonder how much more he was planning to describe if Sansa hadn't run away. "I'm so sorry for the way he bent you over in front of the fire, thrusting away again and again, even while the tears were running down your face...you crying not just from the horror of the act itself but also from the lack of lubrication....."


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I usually watch each episode twice but this week has gotten away from me so I can't be sure...but I had a very different memory of that scene. I'll concede that maybe he was trying to tell her how much he loved her and to remember the good things about that night. But, since you're a woman, I'll ask you how you would feel if your brother/husband told you to forget the raping and just remember how hot you looked that night!


That's not at all what I said.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Really? Maybe small by US army standards or something, but it's actually a pretty good size.
> 
> In the following screenshot, we can see see all the little blocks. From the angle, it's very hard to tell how many men deep (front to back) each block is but it looks like at least 6 men deep. but we can see the blocks are about 12 men wide, and we can see (by my best count) about 94 full size blocks, about 8 half size blocks (same width but half as deep) and then 7 blocks of cavalry (about 40 cavalry per block)
> 
> ...


Excellent analysis. :up:

Yes, I read that Tyrell is 80,000 strong. With a castle. Probably a few catapults, trebuchets, flaming oil cauldrons, rocks, etc. I don't see siege equipment in the Lannisters.

Meh.

With Casterly Rock they explained Tyrion knowing of a tunnel.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JohnB1000 said:


> I know we're not supposed to think about timelines but the Arch Maester only speaking to Sam about what he had done after a number of days had passed and Mormont was mostly recovered seemed odd.


...and wasn't Mormont going to ship out the next day? So he basically healed overnight?

Why isn't Sam being asked to heal all the other stone-skinners in the building?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Pralix said:


> Either Cersei and Jamie are really smart and shrewd tacticians or Dany has a spy in her inner circle.


Jaime did mention that he learned it from Robb Stark.

But yes, could be a spy... Or spyder.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> Jaime did mention that he learned it from Robb Stark.
> But yes, could be a spy... Or spyder.


No way I think Varys would help Cercei in this situation.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> No way I think Varys would help Cercei in this situation.


I totally agree. I just liked the wordplay. 

And can't be Tyrion. I mean he's just her brother. At this point I don't think it's a spy. Just some bold and desperate moves by Cersei that have panned out.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

LordKronos said:


> Looks white enough to me.


No! Its blue!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> That's not at all what I said.


Poor choice of words...what I conceded wasn't what you said...I just meant that it's as far as I'm willing to go in giving him the benefit of the doubt (IOW, what you said wasn't a possibility in my mind when I saw the scene)...

But I will watch the episode again tomorrow night and keep in mind how you saw it...I'm certainly open to changing my mind...I was so put-off by his acting that I was just annoyed and may not have seen the nuance...

Changing topics completely: how did Cersei know how the poison was delivered to her daughter (via a kiss)? Jaime wasn't there; only mama snake and the 3 baby snakes...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Changing topics completely: how did Cersei know how the poison was delivered to her daughter (via a kiss)? Jaime wasn't there; only mama snake and the 3 baby snakes...


From the autopsy?

CSI: Westeros!


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

She was telling mama snake the Maester was the bomb. Jaime would have told him the symptoms exhibited and, knowing the Dornish and their poisons, he probably guessed what it was.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> ..I was so put-off by his acting that I was just annoyed and may not have seen the nuance...
> 
> Changing topics completely: how did Cersei know how the poison was delivered to her daughter (via a kiss)? Jaime wasn't there; only mama snake and the 3 baby snakes...


You forgot the scare quotes around "acting". ;-)

IIRC it's been mentioned that the lipstick poison was a favorite of hers.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

I think the main problem with the actor for Bran is one that's all too common with child actors: cute, precocious kids don't always stay cute or precocious as teenagers/young-adults.

He was picked largely for his looks and mannerisms as a child, since true acting talent is hard to gauge at that age. As he gets older and puberty sets in, things change and he's not that cute boy anymore. (He might even turn out to be a handsome man eventually, but right now he is in a very awkward, gangly phase.)

Meanwhile, whatever acting talent he might have hasn't had time to mature; he's not even used to his new face & body (and hormones  ) yet. Or maybe he just never had that much talent to begin with, but it wasn't apparent when all he had to do was act like a kid.



uncdrew said:


> ...and wasn't Mormont going to ship out the next day? So he basically healed overnight?
> 
> Why isn't Sam being asked to heal all the other stone-skinners in the building?


I think the procedure is still too dangerous to perform en masse. They might let Sam attempt it if another nobleman patient shows up, but I'm guessing that the life of even a muck-swabbing apprentice maester is considered to be worth more than any number of common peasants.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Fair enough, but sheesh. Perhaps a little praise for the Sam-man for doing what no one else even dreamed of doing, and doing it amazingly well with very little in supplies or time.

Sheesh, that's like a college intern curing cancer and then being asked to study for their Bio 101 lab the next day.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Hard to believe but we've basically got one regular season's number of episodes left until the end of the series. Four more this year and six the next.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Fair enough, but sheesh. Perhaps a little praise for the Sam-man for doing what no one else even dreamed of doing, and doing it amazingly well with very little in supplies or time.
> 
> Sheesh, that's like a college intern curing cancer and then being asked to study for their Bio 101 lab the next day.


But considering the base for his reward was the punishment for disobeying explicit orders and for breaking into the super-secret library stacks, I'd say he did pretty awesome! I mean, they're making him...READ OLD BOOKS!

They could have just left him on poop patrol...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I was wrong about Jaime not being there when she kissed Myrcella. He was right next to her when the kiss happened. So if the poison kiss is a trademark, then it makes sense that Cersei knew.

nevermind 

They should've just found a different actor to play Bran. They did so with at least 2 others that I recall.

As far as Sam, he is clearly an excellent surgeon. Sam will be the head of the Citadel before long.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm sure it will turn out that the Archmaester couldn't directly help Sam find the information he's looking for so he conveniently chose to "punish" Sam by having him transcribe all those old books and scrolls, which just happen to contain the information Sam requires.


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> No way I think Varys would help Cercei in this situation.


I'm not so sure. He may not want a bloody war in King's Landing so he is paring down Dany's forces. He says he does what he does for the people and not their leaders. By telling Cersei & Jamie about some of Dany's plans, he helps himself and possibly the people in King's landing and the 7 kingdoms. I don't think he wants Cersei in power but is taking an indirect path to get rid of her.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Pralix said:


> I'm not so sure. He may not want a bloody war in King's Landing so he is paring down Dany's forces. He says he does what he does for the people and not their leaders. By telling Cersei & Jamie about some of Dany's plans, he helps himself and possibly the people in King's landing and the 7 kingdoms. I don't think he wants Cersei in power but is taking an indirect path to get rid of her.


Yet by doing as you suggest, Dany is much more likely to become desperate and burn the city down with her dragons.

I think your theory is as likely as Jon Snow teaming up with Cersei to keep the Targarians from returning to rule. Possible, but so unlikely that it might as well be considered impossible.


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## Lord Snow (Jul 27, 2017)

Notice the Servant girl who was in the Jaime and Cersei scene? she's been in previous seasons as well.
http://i.imgur.com/ZfwMEdm.jpg

Hmm, Littlefinger's spy, perhaps or a Vulcan? 

*Tyrion's conversation with Jon:*

*Tyrion:* Sansa is smarter than she lets on
*Jon:* She's starting to let on


*Tyrion:* You look a lot better brooding than I do
You make me feel like I'm failing at brooding over failing
:blush:

Can't believe we're already half way through S7; just as I'm still recovering from a 12 months wait.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Lord Snow said:


> Notice the Servant girl who was in the Jaime and Cersei scene? she's been in previous seasons as well.
> http://i.imgur.com/ZfwMEdm.jpg
> 
> Hmm, Littlefinger's spy, perhaps or a Vulcan?


Isn't she the one that ratted out Tyrion and Shae?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Lord Snow said:


> Notice the Servant girl who was in the Jaime and Cersei scene? she's been in previous seasons as well.
> http://i.imgur.com/ZfwMEdm.jpg
> 
> Hmm, Littlefinger's spy, perhaps or a Vulcan?
> ...


I wonder if it's kind of an inside joke, they think she's a great actress, or she's someone's GF!


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

Azlen said:


> I just read that HBO got hacked and there are now some GoT spoilers in the wild. I haven't heard any but I wanted those who don't want to be spoiled to be aware that they're out there.
> 
> Link to story about the hacking. There are no spoilers in that story.
> 
> HBO Hacked: Upcoming Episodes, 'Game of Thrones' Data Leaked Online


Episode 4 has been leaked a couple of days early. It's available via magic. It's not HD.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

i can wait 2 days for hd...


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> i can wait 2 days for hd...


So can I...as long as some ****** doesn't post spoilers somewhere. A buddy unintentionally ran into "spoilers" about the next episode last week after the news about the hack came out. However he said the spoilers didn't actually happen last week, though maybe they were intending "next" to mean this weeks. I did not ask anything about the nature of what he heard. We'll see if they pan out.

Since we are now beyond the books and nobody can verify, it would be hilarious if the producers "leaked" some false spoilers just to keep things interesting and mitigate the impact of any real spoilers


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> So can I...as long as some ****** doesn't post spoilers somewhere. A buddy unintentionally ran into "spoilers" about the next episode last week after the news about the hack came out. However he said the spoilers didn't actually happen last week, though maybe they were intending "next" to mean this weeks. I did not ask anything about the nature of what he heard. We'll see if they pan out.


Whoever did that reddit leak 9 mo ago have been dead on with events, just mixed up the order a few times. Down to episode one ending with her at the war room saying "shall we begin". Unfortunately I thought they were all bs or I would have never read them.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I was wrong about Jaime not being there when she kissed Myrcella. He was right next to her when the kiss happened. So if the poison kiss is a trademark, then it makes sense that Cersei knew.
> 
> nevermind


Also, Bronn was on the receiving end of one of those kisses. I don't remember whether Jaime was there in the cell with him when it happened, but if not, Bronn almost certainly told him the story at some point.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Whoever did that reddit leak 9 mo ago have been dead on with events, just mixed up the order a few times. Down to episode one ending with her at the war room saying "shall we begin". Unfortunately I thought they were all bs or I would have never read them.


 Ouch, that stinks. How much of the season was spoiled? All episodes? Is it just bits and pieces or pretty much full details of the major plot points?


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Can we not discuss the leaks at all here?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> Also, Bronn was on the receiving end of one of those kisses. I don't remember whether Jaime was there in the cell with him when it happened, but if not, Bronn almost certainly told him the story at some point.


I think Bron was poisoned by a blade, not a kiss.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> Can we not discuss the leaks at all here?


Please, NO. We would just end up with a thread full of spoiler tags.



heySkippy said:


> I think Bron was poisoned by a blade, not a kiss.


Yeah, that's what I recall happened.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> The castle looks very defendable. At the 0:38 mark.


Has anyone checked the main castle door? Maybe the mechanism that operates it was installed on the wrong side.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

As I finally get to watch the episode for the second time, I note that it's interesting how killing her enemies makes Cersei horny.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

This has nothing to do with the aforementioned leaks but I am going to spoilerize it anyway since it came from a source outside of the show. It has to do with the possible return of a character.


Spoiler



Jason Momoa sparks speculation Khal Drogo could return to Game of Thrones | Daily Mail Online


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

goblue97 said:


> This has nothing to do with the aforementioned leaks but I am going to spoilerize it anyway since it came from a source outside of the show. It has to do with the possible return of a character.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Although if you read the article to the end, they pretty much admit the title is just click-bait:


Spoiler



He's actually there filming Aquaman.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

BrettStah said:


> Can we not discuss the leaks at all here?


Oh don't worry I wasn't going to talk about the content just that unfortunately I had read them and I'm one of those people that avoid spoilers so I don't know what possessed me to. I just thought since we were beyond the books I was safe now! Dumb.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Shakhari said:


> Also, Bronn was on the receiving end of one of those kisses. I don't remember whether Jaime was there in the cell with him when it happened, but if not, Bronn almost certainly told him the story at some point.


That's something I've seen a few people here comment on. They thought Bronn would save the cute snake girl. I didn't think that, he'd have no reason to. They had a brief encounter and he probably fancied her but he's not going to risk his own life for hers, he wouldn't even do that for Tyrion, his bff at the time, because it gained him nothing.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Since I was the first to suggest it, I'll defend myself: Men do very very dumb things when a really great "bad kitty" is involved


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Westerosi Rhapsody - funniest thing I've seen all week. Probably not safe for work because naughty words and very brief skin.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Heh...that's great!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

That video is awesome!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

That video! Amazing. I laughed so hard at a couple spots I had to rewind.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> That video! Amazing. I laughed so hard at a couple spots I had to rewind.


Indeed, it is worth posting again for this new page. Hope this works.





[/QUOTE]


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> Westerosi Rhapsody - funniest thing I've seen all week. Probably not safe for work because naughty words and very brief skin.


Awesome video. Thanks for posting it!


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> They thought Bronn would save the cute snake girl.


I think Bronn is secretly a romantic. If someone hired him to save that sand snake, he'd give them a good 10% discount.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Watching re-runs of Episodes (simply a fantastic funny show) and surprised to see the Greyworm is one of the high school hockey kids on the fictional Pucks show they are making.

Forwarding the Westerosi Rhapsody video to everyone I know!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Watching re-runs of Episodes (simply a fantastic funny show) and surprised to see the Greyworm is one of the high school hockey kids on the fictional Pucks show they are making.


Wait what? He is?? How did I not recognize him?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Wait what? He is?? How did I not recognize him?


He's in season 2 that just re-ran today...he's the kid who has 2 dads and one of them (the dads) discovered he is bi...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

That video reminds me that I miss Roz.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> That video reminds me that I miss Roz.


Joffrey didn't miss her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Joffrey didn't miss her.


He didn't miss her a lot!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I agree, that last shot especially was dead solid perfect.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Wait what? He is?? How did I not recognize him?


It is not surprising. He sort of contorts his face on GoT. He was on graham norton and I barely recognized him.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> It is not surprising. He sort of contorts his face on GoT. He was on graham norton and I barely recognized him.


When I first saw photos from Comic Con this year, I thought he was just a fan posing with the cast.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I had to watch Episodes again to see him and it looks nothing like him. WOW. Also worse than him in that group photo is Varys. At least I assume that's him..........


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

getbak said:


> I assume the Tyrell army's original size includes those who serve all the lesser houses who were sworn to the Tyrells. Once the lesser houses switched allegiance to back Cersei, the Tyrell forces would have been reduced significantly while the Lannister forces would have been bolstered.


I would think any house who was willing to turn on Olenna would also not have been willing to support Renly's claim to the throne. So my guess is the forces that took part in the War of the Five Kings were either Tyrell forces or extremely loyal to the Tyrell household, and willing to follow Loras in his support of Renly.

It was said that they had the third largest army (the Lannister army being the first and the Stark army being the second). So I'm curious as to what happened to all of them.

I suppose it's possible that the bulk of the forces were on their way to King's Landing when the Lannisters encountered them, and what we saw were the remaining Lannister forces marching on Highgarden after having won that battle. But that seems like an important detail to have left out.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

If there really are no more Tyrell and Dornish forces left to support Daenerys, then she is going to need to be careful with her attack on King's Landing. Cersei's not above blowing up the hidden caches of wildfire, and blaming it on her dragons.

The people seemed to be genuinely cheering for Euron as opposed to merely clapping for him as a formality, so it appears that Cersei's propaganda machine is working.

Back in the North, Sansa's demand of grain from the various houses might not go over so well. She has good intentions, but some of the houses might see it as being squeezed. It will be interesting to see if Petyr takes advantage of this, and pushes her into doing something less than noble in order to assert her authority.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although if you read the article to the end, they pretty much admit the title is just click-bait:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



I'm still holding out hope.....even if it is just a dream sequence. Heck, Jon Snow survived multiple stab wounds.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although if you read the article to the end, they pretty much admit the title is just click-bait:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



His role as Aquaman is rather ironic too considering the Dothraki were afraid of the water (that their horses couldn't drink).


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought it was interesting that Missandei explained to Jon and Ser Davos that the people chose Dany to be their queen since the people of the North also chose Jon to be their king.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I thought it was interesting that Missandei explained to Jon and Ser Davos that the people chose Dany to be their queen since the people of the North also chose Jon to be their king.


But that's, like, totally different. Because the people of Slaver's Bay didn't previously HAVE a Queen. So she was just creating a new job opportunity for herself.

But the North DID already have a Queen. Dany. So Jon was stealing HER job.

So, like. TOTALLY different!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

And they just ignored that Jon is Ned's bastard and said he's still a Stark and Lord of Winterfell. They simply continued the Stark's reign which was re-started by Robb; his brother.

Dany's family name meant nothing to the people that made her queen. The Stark name was already near-royalty in the North.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

For anyone looking for more Game of Thrones background/history, there is a youtube channel called scrivatv that has some cool videos that are like audiobooks read by the TV show characters with illustrations.

WARNING - This may contain spoilers but I am a non-book reader and watched the first couple of videos and didn't think it was spoilery.

Here is the link to the first video.


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