# Am I dreaming? Virgin adopts TiVo!



## kered (Dec 3, 2002)

Hey guys,

Look at this story, flagged up by Digital Spy...

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...for-next-generation-tv-platform-72852687.html

I don't know anything about this source, whether there could be any question mark over its veracity, but for those of us with Virgin tv, this could be heaven!

Ironically, I am having V+ installed tomorrow, and expect to retire my TiVo, after (nervous self-deprecating laugh) nearly 7 years of £10/month subs!

I'm sure I'll be able to upgrade to TiVo again if this all pans out!

Fingers crossed!

Derek


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## TIVO_YORK99 (Feb 14, 2001)

After all this time they're finally back.

Will probably subsribe to Vigin Media next year, this is geat news. It looks pretty legit to me.


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## sxb (Feb 23, 2002)

Great news that they are coming back - I have both boxes and although the V+ is technologically much more advanced than my ancient UK Tivo, the Tivo software is still miles ahead. May finally be able to retire the Thomson box now (can't believe its still working after so many years and a few HDD transplants!).

Seems to be official news as its posted on the Tivo website here
:up:


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Good if you live in a Virgin cable area, but the kiss-of-death for a FreeView or FreeSat version of the TiVo until Virgin have grabbed as much as they can from the deal.

Sky are going to have to improve their hardware significantly to counter the threat from Virgin. A cable company is always going to have an edge when it comes to video-on-demand, and a modern TiVo should have a far greater appeal than a Sky+ box.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Yep, it's official    

http://tivo.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=419


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

Excellent news, I'm glad that hell has finally frozen over and the second coming has arrived!

Slightly tempered by the fact that I don't live in a cabled area


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## Glen (May 9, 2004)

good news for some! But I am really disappointed that they went with Virgin. The choice of channels on Virgin is dire compared to sky! Particularly in the HD department! A system that supported several platforms like before would have been better. Freeview and Sky customers have been shut out.


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## Andy Davies (Mar 4, 2004)

kered said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Look at this story, flagged up by Digital Spy...
> 
> ...


Unless Virgin are going to launch a Freeview box then this is just pants if you don't live in an area they serve.

I'm actually more p!ssed off by this announcement than by no announcement.

Andy


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## B33K34 (Feb 9, 2003)

Andy Davies said:


> I'm actually more p!ssed off by this announcement than by no announcement.
> Andy


Come on - cheer up! This is the best we could ever expect for the UK. Tivo was never going to enter the UK again on a free to air platform as their model just doesn't stack up against a non-sub PVR box.

This gives Virgin a truly excellent user interface and gives them a real chance of competing against Sky. (I tried a V+ box before getting Freesat installed and it didn't impress). A few hundred thousand Tivo users in the UK could drive other manufacturers to pay a bit more attention to their own UI's as well.

Break open the bubbly - it's a happy day


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## Glen (May 9, 2004)

It's a happy day for you Virgin people, but what about everyone else?

I feel the exact same way as Andy. Its p1ssed me off more aswell. I dont use freeview, but have had sky for many a year along with TiVo. I was going to fire up my TiVo series one to use again with Sky+ hd, but now, i just can't be bothered. Can you imagine how the other sky/freesat/freeview users will feel when they find out, not to mention how they will feel if they decided to discontinue data for the (not so) current series 1's.

They might aswell tell us to poke it. Its like saying hello Sky/free users, thanks for your support over the years, now get lost. We've found better people now.

There no point in anyone non Virgin hoping this will lead to something for Sky/free customers, because it won't. The wait is over. At least we know now.

Cheers TiVo!


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## BigH (Jan 8, 2008)

fantastic news - unplugged my Tivo last week for V+


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

First of all ... Wahey! New TiVo !  

This is great for VM as it allows them to differentaite thir V+ product from being just a sky+ clone. 
TiVo does so much more, as we all know.
VM are also well placed for TiVo S3 features such as VOD, internet access (netflix etc).
Since the V+ hardware is already supported by TiVo software, the update can be done over the air to existing boxes too.


Do we all now thank Carl for his TiVo to VM petition ?


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## Glen (May 9, 2004)

even the americans are about to get their support back for Satellite!
http://www.tivo.com/dvr-products/ti...x.html?WT.ac=mytivonew_directv_directvdet_lnk


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Andy Davies said:


> Unless Virgin are going to launch a Freeview box then this is just pants if you don't live in an area they serve.
> 
> I'm actually more p!ssed off by this announcement than by no announcement.
> 
> Andy


Virgin DO have a Freeview box already. I was offered one when I subscribed for their ADSL broadband and existing customers can buy one for £40. Perversely it seems the only place I can find any information on it is within their customer only area (see below) so they aren't exactly pushing it.



Virgin.net said:


> Virgin Free TV Kit
> One little box. Over 40 digital Freeview channels. And heaps more DAB digital radio stations. You simply plug it into your TV and away you go!


Clearly that box isn't a Tivo but given Virgin has an ADSL customer base it is possible they might also offer a service based on Tivo's digital terrestrial reference design + broadband TV on demand?

Good news for some, but probably not for me in the time scale I have to update my TV viewing into a multiroom, single source solution.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Rock and roll!

Now - I wonder if we can be beta testers for the new box. Carl! Sort it out!


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## romanpj (Dec 23, 2003)

Just checked and I'm not in a Virgin cable area 

So what's going to happen to the rest of us? Will we still get our guide data? 

Maybe we could look at the Oz Tivo and see if it could be hacked to work here.

DAMN, DAMN, DAMN!!! Tivo is the only thing which makes TV tolerable!


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## Jimus (Dec 28, 2005)

romanpj said:


> Just checked and I'm not in a Virgin cable area


Me too....

Aaargh, this is so annoying. I hope they don't mess with the 'old' service now it is kind of in competition with itself (i.e. Sky vs VirginMedia). Although I guess Virgin serve up Sky telly anyway on their network.

I doubt very much whether people who live in the boonies (e.g. me) will be able to benefit, in fact it might be a risk. Good news for them there city folks though, bah.

Having a bit of a dark day anyway, grrr

Jimus


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## Glen (May 9, 2004)

im not sure. The 'exclusive' contract may mean they have to pull the plug to comply as Virgin dont provide any support or data.


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## deshepherd (Nov 30, 2000)

Great news ... looks like I made the right call in not getting locked into a V+ subscription then!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Glen said:


> im not sure. The 'exclusive' contract may mean they have to pull the plug to comply as Virgin dont provide any support or data.


I can't see it having any impact at all on support for the earlier Tivo S1 product as that was sold under wholly different Terms & Conditions.

In fact what the launch of the new Virgin service does actually do in my opinion is to make it far more likely that our old Tivo S1 machines will now be supported for many more years to come as Tivo could not afford any form of adverse UK publicity with potential UK Virgin customers that could be caused by withdrawing that earlier UK Tivo service.

Of course those using Tivo living in a Virgin cable area may well be given a low cost upgrade path to one of the new Tivo machines. Sadly I am not one of them though.

It remains to be seen if Virgin will find a way of expanding their television service nationwide via ADSL in due course. There obviously won't be a Freeview only box as that does not involve enough revenue to pay the Tivo licensing costs.


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## BigH (Jan 8, 2008)

it'd be interesting to know whether current V+ boxes will be used, just having a firmware update, or whether Virgin will roll out totally new boxes to everyone (seems like a very expensive exercise)


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

The current V+ hardware boxes support the TiVO software - TiVo runs on the same hardware in the US (SA 8300DVB)
The upgrade could be done as an over the air upgrade to existing boxes.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

mikerr said:


> The current V+ hardware boxes support the TiVO software - TiVo runs on the same hardware in the US (SA 8300DVB)
> The upgrade could be done as an over the air upgrade to existing boxes.


When you say that it is the same hardware, does it have the same memory? I know that was a stumbling block when manufacturers tried to sort out bugs in some of the FreeView boxes. There simply wasn't enough room to add more code or memory-based EPG storage.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

I'm not sure on memory, but they have a hard drive for storage anyway (which freeview boxes didn't of course).


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

AFAIK the V+ is basically the same Scientific Atlanta box that Comcast/TiVo use in the US, with different output ports obviously. 

It has been known for a couple of years that TiVo software could be downloaded to the box in-situ - this was how Comcast customers got TiVo 

Even though I'm not in a VM cabled area I still think this is great news for the UK. In addition to the obvious benefits for V+ users, it will mean that TiVo will a) continue to support S1 machines with guide data for the forseeable future and b) will be much better placed to roll out a Freeview offering at a later date. 

Although the VM/TiVo deal is described as "mutually exclusive" I suspect this means in terms of other cable/satellite companies - Freeview is a different kettle of fish entirely and as somebody pointed out VM do actually have a Freeview offering now, albeit not well publicised. With their marketing muscle and all the infrastructure in place to support the V+ cable offering, adding TiVo functionality to a new VM branded Freeview box based on the TiVo reference design would be an obvious next step.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Hopefully this will mean the V+ box is retired... AIUI it only supports MPEG2 not H264 (unlike Sky HD, Freesat HD etc.) - so HD content takes up significantly more bandwith on Virgin than on Sky or Freesat, and bandwith is limited?

It sounded to me as if Virgin and Tivo were working on a next gen box integrating cable (DVB-C) and broadband (DOCSIS?) into one unit - allowing the box to use high speed broadband for some services (VOD etc.) and standard DVB-C cable tech for regular broadcasts, as well as providing high speed broadband for other uses at home?


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Yes, this sounds like new hardware (which pushed it back to late 2010 IMO):



> Virgin confirmed it was replacing its existing TV infrastructure with a new IP-based TV transmission platform based on Cisco's Digital Video Headend technology. TiVo's hardware and software, which Virgin expects to make available during 2010, will run on this system


I'm on VM (with a V+ & 2 standard boxes controlled by tivos), so I'm happy.



blindlemon said:


> adding TiVo functionality to a new VM branded Freeview box based on the TiVo reference design would be an obvious next step.


Yes, especially as they do supply a VM branded freeview box already (although that's not a PVR).
Not sure how that would work with the TiVo subscription model though.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> With their marketing muscle and all the infrastructure in place to support the V+ cable offering, adding TiVo functionality to a new VM branded Freeview box based on the TiVo reference design would be an obvious next step.


So long as the customer also took some other paying Virging products such as broadband, home phone and/or mobile phone from the company so that was a revenue stream to support the underlying guide data and Tivo software licensing costs. I can't see a Freeview alone box without some kind of revenue stream in order to support the Tivo licensing and Tribune EPG costs managing to work.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Virgin confirmed it was replacing its existing TV infrastructure with a new IP-based TV transmission platform based on Cisco's Digital Video Headend technology. TiVo's hardware and software, which Virgin expects to make available during 2010, will run on this system


Which could therefore surely potentially be delivered over any ADSL connection in the UK that was fast enough and not just in existing Virgin Cable tv areas?

BT is currently upgrading the whole of its network to support ADSL2+.........


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

mikerr said:


> Yes, especially as they do supply a VM branded freeview box already (although that's not a PVR).
> Not sure how that would work with the TiVo subscription model though.


The only way I can see TiVo getting on to a FreeView box in the next couple of years or so would be if it also supported a video-on-demand model. Since Virgin/TiVo would already be paying for the EPG service, that would still give them some income from cable customers who jumped over to the FreeView platform.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Although I am in a Virgin area, there is no way that I would go back to an extortionate monthly subscription, now that I have rid myself of the evil Sky.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> Although I am in a Virgin area, *there is no way that I would go back to an extortionate monthly subscription*, now that I have rid myself of the evil Sky.


Indeed.

And as I also do not live in a Virgin cable area it will be en easy decision to stick with my Tivo S1 for as long as it continues to be supported (which may now be for many more years).


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Which could therefore surely potentially be delivered over any ADSL connection in the UK that was fast enough and not just in existing Virgin Cable tv areas?
> 
> BT is currently upgrading the whole of its network to support ADSL2+.........


I think the point is that the Video over IP infrastructure is handled separately from general internet traffic though - with video IP server stuff at multiple locations?

It isn't just a case of having a high-speed ADSL connection to "the internet" AFAIK - you usually need some specific head-end server tech to provide the video stuff?


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

Pure speculation, but as a software engineer myself I can't see existing V+ boxes being migrated to TiVo.

What would happen to existing recordings and season passes? There would need to be some migration, and TiVo won't know about the existing software, its data structures etc.

Almost certainly this will be some kind of new box I would have thought.


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## Modan (Aug 30, 2001)

Interesting to read so many people being negative about this news. I would have thought people would be glad to see TiVo in the UK again in any form. I can understand concerns that this new launch might affect continuity of the existing service, but other than that it seems a bit childish to be annoyed that someone else just received such great news.

I for one am giddy as a kid at christmas with the news. I gave up on my S1 box a while back due to persistent channel changing problems, and I have to say V+ is a better product to me than what I had before. To get the improvements of the V+ combined with the stupendously good TiVo UI is too good to be true.

It was obvious that Sky would never go down the TiVo route. TiVo already tried the open platform route and it failed. Well done to Virgin for (finally) giving at least some people in the UK what they deserve. 

I last logged into this site almost exactly 2 years ago apparently, and I am looking forward to coming back


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## Gavin (Jan 1, 2003)

iankb said:


> Although I am in a Virgin area, there is no way that I would go back to an extortionate monthly subscription, now that I have rid myself of the evil Sky.


I'm more or less the same. It's too late, we've got a freesat HD recorder we use day in day out. Although we have a virgin box (the standard not V+) and it only ever gets powered on to watch catch up tv and thats redundant to some extent now the Wii has Iplayer. We get "freeview and catchup TV" for free bundled in with the TV and broadband but never use it.

Much as I'd love to have Tivo back I'm not going back to paying a subscription, I've a PVR and until that breaks won't be in a rush to replace it. When it finally goes we'll replace it with another freesat HD PVR or if they get it all sorted (and we get a decent signal) a freeview HD PVR. Nice as HD is I don't think theres enough benefit to pay a sub for it, (yes we have a HD TV, we just don't want a huge amount of TV)


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## Gavin (Jan 1, 2003)

Off the wall thought but who's going to do customer service?

I can't see VM leaving it at Sky, both from paying a rival and letting them have access to the VM network to do updates / support and I can't see VM (I always seem to get India) building up the knowledge that the Tivo crew at Sky seem to have.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

GarySargent said:


> Pure speculation, but as a software engineer myself I can't see existing V+ boxes being migrated to TiVo.
> 
> What would happen to existing recordings and season passes? There would need to be some migration, and TiVo won't know about the existing software, its data structures etc.


I can see the issue with season passes, because they would need to match the EPG's. However, would the Virgin box use TiVo's current EPG supplier, or would they transfer to their own (assuming that it's different). It could well be the latter, in which case it might not be so difficult. However, if they do transfer to a new EPG, that might be the end of the legacy service for the Series 1.

As to transferring the recordings, I can see that being a major issue if the underlying file structure is different, since it would be impossible to convert with the limited processing power of the CPU. However, although the file wrapper might change, I assume that the inner storage would not, since it would be based upon the broadcast stream, and the recording hardware.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Gavin said:


> ... I can't see VM (I always seem to get India) building up the knowledge that the Tivo crew at Sky seem to have.


Yes. But when the man is on holiday, the dog has real trouble coping.


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## Lysander (Sep 18, 2003)

Well this is good timing for me, I was about to move to Freesat away from Virgin Media. Whats the betting its Q4 2010 before we see anything...


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## bradleyem (May 23, 2002)

That's me moving (back) to Virgin. I was dreading the day when my SkyHD box was getting more use that my TiVo.


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

Wow.

For me this is great news as I use Virgin for TV & Broadband but have had to compromise PQ for the convenience of using a series 1 TiVo. Now it looks like I can have it all potentially with TiVo HD with 1Tb storage and media streaming just like in the US....fantastic.

I wonder (should Virgin make a decent job of marketing TiVo) how long it will take for the UK public to realise what they have been missing out on with the second rate products they have had to endure all these years.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Also note TiVo software is going on both PVR and non PVR boxes:


> [TiVo] selected as Virgin Media's core software partner for its next generation DVR-enabled set top boxes and its next generation non-DVR set top boxes.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Just as a side note - isn't it great that we've all appeared out of the woodwork again. 

Hello old friends. :up:


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## warrenrb (Jul 21, 2002)

I was discussing with my wife only last weekend, the sad day when we move to an HD set, and have to think about phasing Tivo out of our lives. 

As VM customers, I'm completely over the moon about this - I just blabbed it out to two work colleagues, who could care less about Tivo, but I had to tell someone! Hopefully it's not Q4 2010 as someone said - I don't think I can wait a year!


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

warrenrb said:


> I just blabbed it out to two work colleagues, who could care less about Tivo, but I had to tell someone! Hopefully it's not Q4 2010 as someone said - I don't think I can wait a year!


I just did the same and although they were both VM customers they do not really know what I am talking about with this TiVo thing and why it is so important to me.


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## browellm (Oct 21, 2003)

GarySargent said:


> Pure speculation, but as a software engineer myself I can't see existing V+ boxes being migrated to TiVo.
> 
> What would happen to existing recordings and season passes? There would need to be some migration, and TiVo won't know about the existing software, its data structures etc.
> 
> Almost certainly this will be some kind of new box I would have thought.


Screw that! I'd be happy to start creating my V+ season passes again. Small price to pay.

Besides the current V+ boxes go belly up so often, it'll be like business as usual 

Having said that a new box with a big HD would be useful, as the current one only supports 20hrs of HD material - too small.


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## DJWillis (Apr 18, 2003)

This really is good news ,

Considering I still use my (admittedly 1TB) S1 TiVo on Virgin day in day out the idea to finally get a decent UI layer on new Virgin HD boxes is a total winner.

I was starting to think that my street was the only street in the UK to still use S1's in anger (I have mine and 2 neighbours would also not be parted from there S1's). 

Ok, TiVo bound up with the main UK cable platform is not ideal from an open point of view but it's one hell of a lot better than nothing and gives at least a semi-credible base for a supported FreeView box on the back of VM etc..


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## bradleyem (May 23, 2002)

DJWillis said:


> Ok, TiVo bound up with the main UK cable platform is not ideal from an open point of view but it's one hell of a lot better than nothing and gives at least a semi-credible base for a supported FreeView box on the back of VM etc..


Let's face it, Virgin was the only way that TiVo was going to get any progress into to the UK. Sky is a non-starter, and TiVo's cost model is incompatible with the Freeview/Freesat model. 
Hopefully Virgin can use the power of TiVo to really show how much better it is than Sky+

Question though: Will it be hackable? I'll miss Tivoweb and Tracker.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

This is excellent news. I pop in here occasionally in ever dwindling hope of reading something like this 

I don't live in a virgin enabled area, but am pleased to see Tivo return nonetheless. I only hope either virgin expands or the exclusivity expires and the rest of us can get a new tivo.

Or that the wife will agree to moving to a virgin enabled area


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> Or that the wife will agree to moving to a virgin enabled area


But if she does that you will be on your own !!


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Glen said:


> I feel the exact same way as Andy. Its p1ssed me off more as well.


Whilst I understand your PO, you'll forgive me (I hope!) If I don't give a damn  (Kidding)

To be fair, whoever Tivo did not side with will be disappointed; ie if they'd announced a tie-up with Sky or Freeview, I'd've been just as peeved too.



mikerr said:


> Do we all now thank Carl for his TiVo to VM petition ?


I'm fairly confident that that had zero affect on anything 



ColinYounger said:


> Now - I wonder if we can be beta testers for the new box. Carl! Sort it out!


Oh believe me, I'm all over this 



deshepherd said:


> Great news ... looks like I made the right call in not getting locked into a V+ subscription then!


How'd you figure that. The new box will still be a V+ and I would have thought you could swap to it without breaking any contract terms


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## abarthman (Nov 12, 2002)

Nice to see TiVo making a comeback in the UK. 

I do live in a Virgin cable area and I've been toying with the idea of signing up to them for broadband a while. This might just swing it for me.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

iankb said:


> Although I am in a Virgin area, there is no way that I would go back to an extortionate monthly subscription, now that I have rid myself of the evil Sky.


I don't think VM's pricing can be classed as 'extortionate' any more than Sky's could, to be honest.

For a little under £45 a month I get their Top TV pack, Top phone pack and smallest (but still 10mb) broadband pack!


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## martink0646 (Feb 8, 2005)

Modan said:


> Interesting to read so many people being negative about this news. I would have thought people would be glad to see TiVo in the UK again in any form. I can understand concerns that this new launch might affect continuity of the existing service, but other than that it seems a bit childish to be annoyed that someone else just received such great news.
> 
> I for one am giddy as a kid at christmas with the news. I gave up on my S1 box a while back due to persistent channel changing problems, and I have to say V+ is a better product to me than what I had before. To get the improvements of the V+ combined with the stupendously good TiVo UI is too good to be true.
> 
> ...


I understand your sentiment about negativity but it is a completely one eyed view. Maybe you should at least try to look at the view from the other side of the fence before criticising (although I know that objectivity isn't found that often on forums).

I have had TiVo from Day 1. I went into Dixons (remember them) with a copy of T3 and demanded that they search the stock room when they said they had never heard of it and they came back with a dusty box just as it had been delivered a few days previously. From that day I have been paying my £10 p/m (long story as to why no lifetime) and I have been waiting for years for something to replace my totally hacked, h/ware & s/ware, TiVo. It acts as the centrepeice to my entertainment system and all the family's viewing. My sons first word was TiVo for goodness sake.

Now, to find out that it is returning, that I am in a VM cabled area that is not enabled for digital only analogue and I can't get my hands on it is very galling. Being criticised by someone who openly admits to having given up on TiVo takes the biscuit. Add to that the (wholly justified) fears that this will affect the S1 legacy service and maybe you can understand why I and others are a bit p*ssed off.:down::down:

The one possible salvation could have been someone like Mikerr who would have been able to instigate a slicing service similar to that run in other parts of the world, but why would he bother...he is in a VM area and I for one wouldn't blame him for wasting his time on something he will never use.

So you can see for me and no doubt others that it is actually much worse news that TiVo is returning than not at all.:down:

I'll now go away and blub into my dinner. I'll try not to kick the cat when I get in.

Martin


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## Glen (May 9, 2004)

thats very well put Martin. It is literally like dangling a HD tivo above my head and then snatching it away and saying 'Sorry, you're with Sky. No!'


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

RichardJH said:


> But if she does that you will be on your own !!


There are a few nice Virgin cable areas - Holland Park is OK but somewhat pricey and Totteridge isn't too shabby albeit a bit boring 

To Glen: If I can't get Virgin Cable when TiVo re-launches I'll probably try and get someone to make an on the-fly SATA data replicator and use a PC to read the contents of a SKYHD drive and use a series one TiVo to control the recording completely.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

martink0646 said:


> ...that I am in a VM cabled area that is not enabled for digital *only analogue *...


Not for long  I thought I had read somewhere that all areas still analogue will be digital by the end of this year. While I assume they're gonna miss that deadline, I would think (hope!) that you are digitalised by the time this new PVR is launched.


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## Glen (May 9, 2004)

what do they usually do when they cable a new area? I'm assuming postal leaflets etc?


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

Glen said:


> what do they usually do when they cable a new area? I'm assuming postal leaflets etc?


They spend two years digging up the pavement.... You'll notice... Thing about Cable, is it requires vast sums of capital investment to do new areas. Sky's penetration is so high, and coupled with their broadband offer, it means that laying new Cable doesnt really add up as an investment opportunity. I doubt we will see any new cabling anywhere in the medium term.

If you aint got virgin cable now, you aint going to get it.


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

TiVo HD XL retails at $500 in the US. Lifetime subs will set you back another $400.

What do you reckon its going to cost when it finally arrives in the UK?


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## Maclynn (Oct 6, 2000)

How dissapointing, I have stuck with TiVo since it started. I have 3, and now i am not in the cabled area, not that I really want Virgin, so am still left out.


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## dmchapman (Nov 1, 2001)

Hurrah!

Only a few weeks ago I tweeted

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/5359877704 at VirginMedia.... no response

Can't wait. Just hoping VM don't screw it up :-/

Oh, hello all, it's been a long time ;-) Good to see some of the regulars still around


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## MAD4IT (Apr 3, 2003)

fantastic news


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

gazter said:


> They spend two years digging up the pavement.... You'll notice... Thing about Cable, is it requires vast sums of capital investment to do new areas. Sky's penetration is so high, and coupled with their broadband offer, it means that laying new Cable doesnt really add up as an investment opportunity. I doubt we will see any new cabling anywhere in the medium term.
> 
> If you aint got virgin cable now, you aint going to get it.


Hopefully the UK government will get its fingers out of its posterior and help install optic fibre in all roads in all major cities like Japan and S.Korea have done for the last decade, or at the very least reduce the taxes on its installation and use.

I think Japan and Korea now have over 50% fibre!
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0905/

Someone is ALWAYS digging up the roads around me.
It should be a legal requirement that they install optic fibre and all other gas/water/telephone/electricity pipes and cables at the same time instead of re-digging every year or so!


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## Milhouse (Sep 15, 2001)

iankb said:


> However, would the Virgin box use TiVo's current EPG supplier, or would they transfer to their own (assuming that it's different). It could well be the latter, in which case it might not be so difficult. However, if they do transfer to a new EPG, that might be the end of the legacy service for the Series 1.


That's a very disturbing thought, because if TiVo decide to support a new format EPG I doubt we will have the option to hack an alternative EPG for our old S1 boxes as TiVo will have returned to the UK.

While this announcement is good news for people within the Virgin Media digital network catchment area, it's also potentially awful news for S1 owners who can't switch to Virgin.

Also, if UK TiVo support switches over to VM from Sky, which it almost certainly will, I wonder if the newly trained VM/TiVo support reps will be able to support legacy S1 devices? I highly doubt it - I would imagine all that knowledge will remain at Sky.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Great news - although I'm not in a Virgin area either so i don't have to explain to teh Mrs about a new STB!

Milhouse - S1 boxes are still supported in the US, the format appears to be backwards compatible. I can't see Virgin making a PR faux pas by allowing existing tiVo owners to be cu off.


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## browellm (Oct 21, 2003)

gazter said:


> They spend two years digging up the pavement.... You'll notice... Thing about Cable, is it requires vast sums of capital investment to do new areas. Sky's penetration is so high, and coupled with their broadband offer, it means that laying new Cable doesnt really add up as an investment opportunity. I doubt we will see any new cabling anywhere in the medium term.
> 
> If you aint got virgin cable now, you aint going to get it.


http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1152653

Worth a punt.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Milhouse - S1 boxes are still supported in the US, the format appears to be backwards compatible. I can't see Virgin making a PR faux pas by allowing existing tiVo owners to be cut off.


For once I find myself fully in agreement with TCM2007.

With Tivo marketing once again in the UK taking any action to upset existing longstanding Tivo customers, who are likely to be the product's greatest evangelists with potential new Virgin Tivo customers, would be a very poor strategic decision indeed.

Support work for the Tivo S1 machines now largely consists of changing some card payment details and most customer staff seem to be pretty competent with that kind of activity. If anything too complicated comes up they can always refer to Tivo staff in Alviso for further assistance.

Also the whole reason the Tivo S1 service has kept going this long this reliably (including even the notorious matter of the foul up leading to the cessation of Suggestions on S1 machines also being remedied for UK customers) is clearly in anticipation of this very moment with Tivo's re-entry to the UK marketplace. Consequently there is now no opportunity for journos to scribble that Tivo is a company that has been here before but then pushed off leaving all its customers in the lurch.


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## steford (Oct 9, 2002)

Glen said:


> good news for some! But I am really disappointed that they went with Virgin. The choice of channels on Virgin is dire compared to sky! Particularly in the HD department! A system that supported several platforms like before would have been better. Freeview and Sky customers have been shut out.


I'm not sure "went with" is the right phrase. Tivo is shutting no one out although of course they could produce their own Freeview/Freesat box if they felt it was viable (which they clearly don't). I blame Sky for the demise of UK Tivo and now, ironically, for its re-emergence.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

steford said:


> I blame Sky for the demise of UK Tivo and now, ironically, for its re-emergence.


Seconded.:up:


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## Milhouse (Sep 15, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> Seconded.:up:


I blame the TiVo management.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Milhouse said:


> I blame the TiVo management.


Tivo's management seem to operate quite successfully in the USA where no one single pay television platform has been allowed to develop an anti competitive stranglehold on the marketplace in the way that Sky has managed to do in the UK.


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## Milhouse (Sep 15, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> Tivo's management seem to operate quite successfully in the USA where no one single pay television platform has been allowed to develop an anti competitive stranglehold on the marketplace in the way that Sky has managed to do in the UK.


I don't think you can compare the US and UK pay TV markets - the UK is far too small for competition to exist in the way it does in the US. It's no surprise that a single satellite supplier and a single cable supplier dominate/monopolise the pay TV markets. We may not like it, but the UK market is not big enough to support multiple competing suppliers. I would like to see Sky forced to accept third-party viewing hardware on their network, ie. TiVo STBs rather than have to accept the rubbish Sky see fit to make available.

I just think it's too easy to blame Sky when TiVo most likely made the decision to leave the UK based on the fact that - at the time - few understood what a PVR was, the marketing was awful and they were losing money hand over foot in their US home market.

As for "operating quite successfully" - have TiVo actually started to turn in a regular profit yet?


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## browellm (Oct 21, 2003)

Was just looking at the digital spy forums. Loads of "what is this TiVo of which you speak" type stuff, and great to see all the enthusiastic, even nostalgic responses from the dewy-eyed (me included) who've had the pleasure of using the system.

Can't wait for this!


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Major dude said:


> TiVo HD XL retails at $500 in the US. Lifetime subs will set you back another $400.
> 
> What do you reckon its going to cost when it finally arrives in the UK?


As it is being bundled as part of Virgin Media I would expect the subscription and box costs to be rolled into the monthly TV/Broadband/Telephony packages that Virgin offer. There may be a premium for Tivo - or it may be bundled just with the combined TV+Broadband offering as it sounds as if the box will require a decent broadband connection as well as a DVB-C connection for regular broadcast cable.


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## martink0646 (Feb 8, 2005)

cwaring said:


> Not for long  I thought I had read somewhere that all areas still analogue will be digital by the end of this year. While I assume they're gonna miss that deadline, I would think (hope!) that you are digitalised by the time this new PVR is launched.


Carl have you got a source for this or even better a name/contact that I can ring/e-mail for more information. I used to work in telecoms supplying backbone equipment, so I know that the major cost is the dig. That is already done with cables installed, and AFAIK VM use FTTK (Fibre To The Kerb i.e. Streetside cabs) with the 'last mile' (customer connection) being copper as it is still expensive, in equipment terms as opposed to labour, for FTTH (Fibre To The Home).

I while back (around 2000) I did some work for 186K who were the network arm of Transco (British Gas's infrastructure division) who were exploring using gas pipes to get Fibre into peoples home without digging. It would have been an elegant solution as Fibre has no fire risk in a gas pipe where copper obviously does. It went down the drain when the dotcom bubble burst and 186K's network was bought on the cheap by 3, the mobile provider.

I mention this as I *believe* that the conversion is relatively simple with changes needed only at the head end and the Kerb but I may be way off base with this as I have been out of the loop for a few years.

Martin

Martin


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

Sneals2000 said:


> As it is being bundled as part of Virgin Media I would expect the subscription and box costs to be rolled into the monthly TV/Broadband/Telephony packages that Virgin offer. There may be a premium for Tivo - or it may be bundled just with the combined TV+Broadband offering as it sounds as if the box will require a decent broadband connection as well as a DVB-C connection for regular broadcast cable.


Reckon you are probably right, it would be nice to have the option of a lifetime sub though.

Here is hoping that the box Virgin end up offering is comparable with a US TiVoHD XL, rather than some inferior V+ box with limited capacity (albeit with three tuners rather than two), no media streaming and a TiVo GUI.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

martink0646 said:


> Carl have you got a source for this or even better a name/contact that I can ring/e-mail for more information.


I'll see what I can do, but my source was the Digital Spy Cable Forum

Also, just FYI, current V+ pricing structure and info: http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/tv/vplus-hd-box.html


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Major dude said:


> Reckon you are probably right, it would be nice to have the option of a lifetime sub though.


I can't see how a Virgin Cable Tivo can have a lifetime sub option AFAIK all Virgin cable receivers are rented not owned? Perhaps I'm out of date as they were still Telewest when I moved out of a cable area.


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## Gavin (Jan 1, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> With Tivo marketing once again in the UK taking any action to upset existing longstanding Tivo customers, who are likely to be the product's greatest evangelists with potential new Virgin Tivo customers, would be a very poor strategic decision indeed.


I didn't think Tivo did any marketting in the UK as such, it was all done by the box makers, Thompson and a little by Sky before Sky + arrived.

What Virgin do marketing is anyones guess,...


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## bradleyem (May 23, 2002)

AMc said:


> I can't see how a Virgin Cable Tivo can have a lifetime sub option AFAIK all Virgin cable receivers are rented not owned? Perhaps I'm out of date as they were still Telewest when I moved out of a cable area.


Yeah, the pricing will be the same as now I suspect - £5 per month if you have the minimum package, and free for people with the larger deals. No real use for a lifetime sub.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Milhouse said:


> I don't think you can compare the US and UK pay TV markets - the UK is far too small for competition to exist in the way it does in the US. It's no surprise that a single satellite supplier and a single cable supplier dominate/monopolise the pay TV markets. We may not like it, but the UK market is not big enough to support multiple competing suppliers.


Hmm - markets much smaller than the UK support multiple significant pay-TV platforms - I'm thinking of Viasat vs Canal Digital in Sweden (even if you take the whole of Scandinavia it's still a smaller market than the UK)


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## P63B (Oct 23, 2003)

I don't share the optimism of some here that S1 will still be supported under the VM deal. Yes, S1 users are still supported in the US, but that is because they continue to have a contract with TiVo. Under the new deal, our contracts will be with VM. 

As for our existing contracts, the current T&Cs on the TiVo website say:
"TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion."
So VM is under no obligation to maintain the existing service to anyone. 

Also - there are about 550 S1 users in the UK, according to the poll on this site, compared with 749,000 V+ users and four times as many existing Virgin TV customers that don't yet have V+. I'm not convinced that we are that important to VM - even from a bad PR perspective. Given their reputation for customer service in recent years, I reckon they believe they could cope with upsetting a few hundred people.

It's possible that VM will try offer us some kind of preferential upgrade to the new box, but I'm not expecting any more than that. 

Just my opinion - and I hope that I'll be proved wrong!


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## bobnick (Jun 6, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Not for long  I thought I had read somewhere that all areas still analogue will be digital by the end of this year. While I assume they're gonna miss that deadline, I would think (hope!) that you are digitalised by the time this new PVR is launched.


There's no chance they will be upgrading the analogue network in central London - they're more likely just to disconnect it


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

P63B said:


> Also - there are about 550 S1 users in the UK..


You think everyone with a Tivo posts on this site and that no-one with a Tivo does not  Sorry if I mis-understood you, but I disagree.

I don't see why existing S1 units that are, for all we know, not covered by this new agreement, should stop working.


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## Richard Loxley (Jun 4, 2002)

P63B said:


> Yes, S1 users are still supported in the US, but that is because they continue to have a contract with TiVo. Under the new deal, our contracts will be with VM.


Our contracts are with Tivo, just because they're relaunching with a new partner doesn't magically change the contract we signed.



> As for our existing contracts, the current T&Cs on the TiVo website say:
> "TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion."


True, but having other paying customers supporting the UK listings service makes this less likely than at any time in the last nine years!



> Also - there are about 550 S1 users in the UK, according to the poll on this site


I think that figure is meaningless - I've never voted in that poll even though I read this site, and I personally know two other people using Tivos who don't even know this board exists!


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## deshepherd (Nov 30, 2000)

Sneals2000 said:


> As it is being bundled as part of Virgin Media I would expect the subscription and box costs to be rolled into the monthly TV/Broadband/Telephony packages that Virgin offer.


Though you'll probably have to pay a £150 "installation" fee


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Well it's &#163;75 for the current model


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

AMc said:


> I can't see how a Virgin Cable Tivo can have a lifetime sub option AFAIK all Virgin cable receivers are rented not owned? Perhaps I'm out of date as they were still Telewest when I moved out of a cable area.


Yep - I don't see how a lifetime-sub model would work on a cable device. There wouldn't be any point - if you stopped subscribing to the cable service and/or broadband element your box would be a brick, even if you did own it, which with Virgin Media you don't (they are rented)


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## magician (Oct 11, 2000)

Gavin said:


> I didn't think Tivo did any marketting in the UK as such, it was all done by the box makers, Thompson and a little by Sky before Sky + arrived.
> 
> What Virgin do marketing is anyones guess,...


That's because they let SKY do it for them!......mmmmmm


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## Glen (May 9, 2004)

just saw these on the Digital Spy Forum










This could be it?? very similar to the TiVo ouija board

appears to be some sort of screen shot from a presentation.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

I don't think paid-for video-on-demand is going to work for me. If it costs £3 to keep a film for 24 hours, it would probably cost me £9 just to see the end, with the way I tend to fall asleep in the middle.


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## Glen (May 9, 2004)

all this is making me wonder you know. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of clause in the original contract between Sky and TiVo, that if they decided to pull out of the UK for whatever reason, they would have to wait x amount of years before re enterting. If that's true, that period must have just ended.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

I don't think that it was TiVo's decision to no longer support this country, but their inablity to find a manufacturer who would produce and market TiVo's in the volume necessary to justify a continued presence.

Thomson stopped manufacturing them long before TiVo stopped selling them.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Yeah sounds like it was thomson:
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-983432.html?tag=fd_top

This reads that Sky has a fair few TiVo shares, and the marketing deal ended in 2003.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-us-personal-video-box-group-tivo-751715.html


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

iankb said:


> I don't think that it was TiVo's decision to no longer support this country, but their inablity to find a manufacturer who would produce and market TiVo's in the volume necessary to justify a continued presence.
> 
> Thomson stopped manufacturing them long before TiVo stopped selling them.


The capital costs were much higher however, when Thompson was making Tivos. Modern Tivos no longer require the (at the time) expensive hardware analogue mpeg2 capture circuitry, combine that with the drop in storage prices, makes the modern hardware entry costs a fraction of what they used to be.

A large stb maker could easily churn out boxes that could run tivo, and include a 500gb hard disk for about £100 a unit.

With common standards, dvb-t, dvb-c and dvb-s, tivo need no more be a hardware designer, then microsoft.


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## Moe UK (Nov 27, 2009)

When Tivo was first introduced into the UK market I had just entered the workforce and could afford the up front cost of the unit, by the time I could Tivo had pulled out and the unit was no longer available to buy as new in the UK. Even back then without owning one I knew how special this device was. So as a long suffering Virgin customer who always looked at Sky customers with some envy I know have a reason to rejoice.

I am really looking forward to get my Tivo fix soon. For those on Sky take heart that we do not know what the full details of the agreement, Tivo may only have x number of years exclusivity with Virgin before they can deal with other companies (pure speculation on my part) and those that live in none cables areas or close to one, efforts are being made to cable up missing houses and new builds 

For those who are further afield there is still hope Virgin have begun a program, there is only currently one site in Cornwall, where they are a using privately built optic fibre networks to deliver their services. If this trial is successful I can see them doing similar deal with other providers as there seem to be a few networks floating around that would cost Virgin little in roll out terms but could bring in a influx of new customers.


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## P63B (Oct 23, 2003)

cwaring said:


> You think everyone with a Tivo posts on this site and that no-one with a Tivo does not  Sorry if I mis-understood you, but I disagree.


I'll gladly concede that point - I took the number from the 'how many users left?' poll as I was trying to find a hard number of existing TiVo users rather than pulling a figure out of the air. You're right - it's clearly an underestimate.



cwaring said:


> I don't see why existing S1 units that are, for all we know, not covered by this new agreement, should stop working.


According to the press release, "Virgin Media will become the exclusive distributor of TiVo services and technology in the United Kingdom." I take that to mean that only VM will be allowed to supply the S1 service - and (IMHO) they won't be interested in keeping it going.


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## shabbadoof13 (Oct 24, 2007)

so if they shut it off how will us series 1's go about still getting our guide data?


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## Glen (May 9, 2004)

Thats just it. If in the event of the S1 service being stopped. The guide data will be adapted for the Virgin program lineup and service and there will be no guide data for series 1 units. That will in effect, be the end. Thats assuming that tribune carry it on with Virgin.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Presumably the Tivo/Virgin excluse tie-up precludes the launch of the Tivo PC/Liquid PC app that Nero/Tivo are selling in the US for ATSC use?

From reviews it sounds like it isn't the greatest PC implementation known to man - and not selling amazingly (they're now available for $39 with a year's sub and a tuner card with a cash-back rebate I believe?) - but it was a hopeful sign that Tivo might produce a DVB solution...

I guess Tivo's model doesn't work as well in the UK where our main non-subscription TV platforms have zero-cost listing data (7 day EPGs on Freesat and Freeview in machine readable format - not just text pages) and all of our main pay-TV platforms have bespoke PVRs, and no Cablecard / CAM official support to allow for third party receivers?

Their only real approach was a tie-up with Virgin Media or Sky over here I guess...


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Sneals2000 said:


> Their only real approach was a tie-up with Virgin Media or Sky over here I guess...


Given their national coverage, Sky would have been the obvious solution for TiVo. However, Sky just hate giving any cut of the profit to a third-party. However annoying it would have been, I just wish that Sky had bought (or been able to have bought) TiVo. It would also have fitted in well with their existing cable tie-up in the US. I think that Sky have made a big mistake with relying on their NDS technology.

As has been pointed out, hardware is quite a low proportion of the investment for a PVR nowadays. Software is the expensive part, and TiVo was well ahead in that area.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

iankb said:


> Given their national coverage, Sky would have been the obvious solution for TiVo. However, Sky just hate giving any cut of the profit to a third-party. However annoying it would have been, I just wish that Sky had bought (or been able to have bought) TiVo.


Yep - it is notable that DirecTV in the US used to have a Tivo tie-up with their DirecTivo, then when News International had a controlling stake, they retired the DirecTivo and replaced it with an NDS XTV box (Sky+ equivalent), and then when DirecTV changed hands and left News International, a new Tivo tie-up happened...

In the US Tivo has a reputation and a prestige that generic or platform-specific PVRs don't I guess.

That hasn't happened in the UK.



> It would also have fitted in well with their existing cable tie-up in the US. I think that Sky have made a big mistake with relying on their NDS technology.


I'm not so sure. Sky's NDS tech has also delivered a very effective interactive TV platform, and when broadcasters properly use the EPG start/stop record triggers, the integration works very well. With the Sky HD EPG, things have improved a lot in UI terms as well.

Sure - Tivo was better - but Sky HD's EPG is good enough for many (most?) people, particularly those approaching it as a VHS replacement.

Those of us who have been exposed to Tivo see the limitations - and things like home networking are sorely lacking from Sky...



> As has been pointed out, hardware is quite a low proportion of the investment for a PVR nowadays. Software is the expensive part, and TiVo was well ahead in that area.


Yep - but platform integration is also increasingly an issue.

It will be interesting to see if Sky launch their home server solution - which is widely rumoured. This replaces multi-room receivers and LNB feeds to each room, with IP networking to each room, and a tuner stack in a central server. This would allow centralised recording, and live TV reception, with all rooms able to stream recordings and live TV simultaneously (subject to tuner restrictions).

With a Quad/Quattro LNB feeding a single tuner farm set-up (particularly neatly with a Global Invacom fibre LNB that feeds all 4 bands down a single fibre) it would potentially make a very neat system (and get round the phone line requirement for geo-location that multiroom currently has?)

(On a purely personal note I'd love Global Invacom to produce a multi-sat fibre multi-switch. This would allow you to feed single fibres from multiple LNBs on a toroidal dish to a single multiswitch, and then fibres or IF feeds to individual tuners. Much neater than running 4 LNB feeds for every satellite - or breaking out their fibre LNBs to Quattro simulators)


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Although, of course, I am over-the-moon about the potential of a V+ Tivo, I do wonder exactly what features it might or might not have. For example, does the deal allow VM to choose which features their boxes have or will it simply be a US Series 2/3/whatever made to work with VM's infrastucture. 

As log as it has SPs, WLs and 'net access I'll be happy 

I guess we'll find out soon enough.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

I would expect it to be a new model to be honest. Core EPG and recording functionality similar to UK/US Tivos with extra stuff like VOD integrated via the broadband connection (a bit like Netflix in the US possibly?)

I would imagine in the current DRM climate that sharing content FROM a PC TO a Cable box might be supported, but sharing content TO a PC FROM a Cable box might not, when it comes to Home Media Networking stuff.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

Sneals2000 said:


> It will be interesting to see if Sky launch their home server solution - which is widely rumoured. This replaces multi-room receivers and LNB feeds to each room, with IP networking to each room, and a tuner stack in a central server. This would allow centralised recording, and live TV reception, with all rooms able to stream recordings and live TV simultaneously (subject to tuner restrictions).


For the large well-heeled family and commercial installations a server based system for Sky is sorely lacking.

I wonder if TiVo could put out a multi-tuner central Freesat/Freeview server.
This would deal with the home/family market, but I guess not having Sky Sports would be the main sticking point.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

P63B said:


> According to the press release, "Virgin Media will become the exclusive distributor of TiVo services and technology in the United Kingdom." I take that to mean that only VM will be allowed to supply the S1 service - and (IMHO) they won't be interested in keeping it going.


I wouldn't interpret that as meaning that EXISTING subscriptions can't be maintained. Just that Virgin have exclusive rights to sell new ones.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

iankb said:


> I think that Sky have made a big mistake with relying on their NDS technology.


NDS technology is capable of doing way more than Sky have ever done with it. I saw it running on a home network and sync-ing to handheld devices years ago, bu Sky never switched those features on.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

TCM2007 said:


> NDS technology is capable of doing way more than Sky have ever done with it. I saw it running on a home network and sync-ing to handheld devices years ago, bu Sky never switched those features on.


Were Sky just thinking that releasing such a product would not be profitable or was it that they couldn't get it working reliably enough (after all SkyHD isn't exactly brilliant at reliability in comparison to TiVo)?


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## bluewomble (Jun 25, 2004)

Does anyone know what series of TiVo Virgin are likely to use? Will they be series 2 or series 3 units? Are they likely to be hackable?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

No idea yet and, although they may be hackable, don't forget that you don't own the box and they will probably be able to tell


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

bluewomble said:


> Does anyone know what series of TiVo Virgin are likely to use? Will they be series 2 or series 3 units? Are they likely to be hackable?


I wouldn't be surprised if it was a case of Tivo developing software to run on a new Virgin platform, rather than selling Virgin an existing platform model?


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

I doubt that there will be any real detail available about the product for a long time yet. No company issues specifications until it has been developed and tested, and any beta testing will be performed under a non-disclosure agreement.


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## CH1 (Jul 18, 2004)

Yes - someone on this forum told me to get the Humax, daftly thought Thompson would be more like TIVO. I pay to get the extra channels on Top Up TV anyway so in theory don't mind paying Virgin subscription (anyone use their broadband? Another firm has had me on hold for 50 mins & counting and as it has locked me out of my account!). Surely people with series one boxes can still hook those up to freeserve at the same time as having the cable service - I have the TiVo box hooked up to one decoder without the extra channels and the DVR to the another. The only problem is the decoder attached to TiVo doesn't see BBC for some reason.

I shall certainly wait to see what Virgin come out with in the new year and am optimistic.


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## bryl (Apr 28, 2004)

I can't believe a new TIVO is coming. I hope they do it on a virgin 'freeview' box for those of us not in the virgin cable areas - more than happy to switch to virgin broadband. I really hope they do a decent job. Is it nearly 10 years since that first happy christmas morn? I can't believe its so long! Still cringe every time I here someone say that they 'Sky-plused' a programme.


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## 133635 (Jan 13, 2006)

I'm well chuffed with this, i'd moved to Virgin over the summer when i moved house and pissed off with Murdoch and no small part of that due to them stiffing Tivo.

I'd have certainly moved on hearing this news anyway.

Got to just think now how i tell my old Thomson box now that he's being put out to pasture, might just take old Shep out into yard and blow the mutha away.

Counting down already


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

*********** said:


> Got to just think now how i tell my old Thomson box now that he's being put out to pasture, might just take old Shep out into yard and blow the mutha away.


Don't do that!
There are plenty of people who are still watching in SD and don't have TiVo or Virgin or need a TiVo to control their SkyHD box!
Donate/sell the TiVo as I'm sure it will be another 10 years before Sky and other UK PVR manufacturers catch up!


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## VirginMediaPhil (Nov 27, 2009)

I'm from Digital Spy Forums - decided to use same username - and have looked back at this forum for the past few years. Unfortunately, I don't seem to feel the excitement of this announcement has gotten to you long-time users. Heck; it's been almost eight years since TiVo announced it would pull out of the UK - I thought there would be huge excitement here for the return of TiVo to our shores in any shape or form. But I see the problem - Virgin's availability. Being a Telewest customer since 2002, I've never really felt the frustration when realising cable wasn't available in your area, the only time being when I tried NTL's site first and they said I wasn't available for their service.

Hopefully Virgin will do something to make sure that at least 90&#37; of the UK is digitally cabled by the time the first TiVo-branded box is available.

After having my TVDrive/V+ box since 2006, I can tell you that it's been "good enough". Virgin have finally realised that there products need to be better than "good enough" - they need to be the best, and hopefully TiVo will come up with the goods. Since first testing out the Series 1 TiVo in Dixons all those years ago, I can't wait to see what TiVo are offering now. Off to Google I go...!


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## Moe UK (Nov 27, 2009)

There is no chance of digital cable being available to 90&#37; of the population in the next 12 months, quite frankly I would be amazed if they can do that in the next 12 years. Laying cable underground is expensive and a very long job. They are currently cleaning up areas where they have cable and adding homes and small areas that have been missed and new builds. Maybe if they can do like Fibrecitry and use the sewers to run their fibre.

Virgin to have aspirations of extending the network but they still have the debt of when this was originally done.

As for what we can expect to see in the new Tivo, over the summer Neil Berkett was doing his usual mumbo jumbo about the future of cable and talking about how they revolutionise the way we watch TV, citing one example of how you will be bale to start watching something in one room, pause it and go and watch from the pause point in another room. So it sounds like we will be getting Tivio's home networking features.

I very much doubt we will be able to FTP to our PC's though, correct me if I am wrong but isn't there a requirement in the US that it has to be easy for customer to transfer content to other devices?


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

Even though I have a cable socket there's no way in hell I'll be going back to these scum. Virgin in their former NTL & CableTel guises were truly the worst experience as a customer I have ever had. They still owe me &#163;400 worth of time of work due to incompetence on their behalf, and that's just one fraction of the hell I went through with them. Besides they could never get the damn cable to be stable anyway. I'd rather live with vastly inferior Sky than let Virgin into my home .

But aside from that, good luck to those who manage to get it. I just hope your experience isn't as bad as mine from these jokers.

As for cable roll out. Forget it. Cable is and will always be limited to larger towns and cities. If you don't live in civilisation it will never happen. It's far more likely you'll get BT fibre to cabinet which could provide a high speed broadband and TV service to the home, but that will of course be supplied by BT.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

In general the NTL areas seemed to have far worse reputation than the Telewest areas.
Personally (in an ex-telewest area) I've not had any real trouble with broadband or tv for the past 10 years...


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## Davyburns (Jan 7, 2004)

mikerr said:


> In general the NTL areas seemed to have far worse reputation than the Telewest areas.
> Personally (in an ex-telewest area) I've not had any real trouble with broadband or tv for the past 10 years...


Me Either


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## JudyB (Jan 25, 2006)

Moe UK said:


> There is no chance of digital cable being available to 90% of the population in the next 12 months, quite frankly I would be amazed if they can do that in the next 12 years. Laying cable underground is expensive and a very long job. They are currently cleaning up areas where they have cable and adding homes and small areas that have been missed and new builds.


I agree. We live in an Oxfordshire village for which there were "plans" for cable to be laid a few years back (by a company called ComTel). They spent a while looking at the options but concluded that they would only be able to easily cable the main road through the village because pretty well all of the side roads (including ours) are private roads. Given the time and cost implications of negotiating with everyone who owned part of each road they gave up completely.

At the time they might have got the custom or those looking for broadband, but we have had ADSL since 2003 so my guess is that the costs will still outweigh any potential benefits of cabling up the area.


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## browellm (Oct 21, 2003)

I'm amazed I can have 50mb cable where I live. The town has a population of 8-9000, and it's a about 12 miles from Nottingham.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

browellm said:


> I'm amazed I can have 50mb cable where I live. The town has a population of 8-9000, and it's a about 12 miles from Nottingham.


It probably means a director of the cable firm lives there, or a city councillor responsible for allowing them to dig up the roads. It wouldn't be the first time that such as influenced a commercial decision.

Or, of course, your village might just lie on the path to a larger population cluster.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

VirginMediaPhil said:


> I don't seem to feel the excitement of this announcement has gotten to you long-time users. Heck; it's been almost eight years since TiVo announced it would pull out of the UK - I thought there would be huge excitement here for the return of TiVo to our shores in any shape or form.


I thought that there had been rather a lot of excitement and quite a few positive comments here when this forum had practically died on its feet in terms of any meaningful discussion in the last 6 months before this announcement came along. But as UK Tivo S1 owners tend to be a more affluent and intelligent kind of a customer basethis means that many of them live in non Virgin Cable areas (we all know its far cheaper to cable up a modern rabbit hutch developer built estate than houses in a rural English village) and hence rather a disproportionately large number of UK Tivo S1 owners (compared to the population at large) do not have access to Virgin Cable. And Virgin's ADSL service in these non Virgin cable areas has not exactly established a good reputation as either a high quality or reliable service. Indeed it seems to have gone out of its way to be identified as being cheap and nasty.



> But I see the problem - Virgin's availability. Being a Telewest customer since 2002, I've never really felt the frustration when realising cable wasn't available in your area, the only time being when I tried NTL's site first and they said I wasn't available for their service.
> 
> Hopefully Virgin will do something to make sure that at least 90% of the UK is digitally cabled by the time the first TiVo-branded box is available.


So this would imply some kind of deal with BT Wholesale to access their Wholesale Broadband Connect equipped exchange network as most homes living on these exchanges should get a fast enough broadband service to cope with providing IPTV?

Still no help of course to the 10% of people like myself living on non LLU phone exchanges in countryside villages that BT also seems to have no plans to enable for Wholesale Broadband Connect but quite good news for many people living on currently or soon to be BT WBC enabled exchanges who do not currently have access to the Virgin Media cable network.

Lack of unversal UK availability has always been a huge stimbling block image wise for cable tv and I am surprised that Virgin have taken this long to get around to more actively addressing that particular issue.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

IPTV is interesting - but AFAIK it has never really competed with DVB-C/T/S for picture quality has it?

To deliver a decent single stream of H264 HD and AC3 audio you really need around 9Mbs continuous streaming. Some ADSL connections can now deliver this (I'm on around 17Mbs here - but I can almost see the exchange from my bedroom window!) - but if you have a multi-room system and VOD streaming via IPTV over ADSL you'd need to deliver a LOT more than 9Mbs. Say three TVs are watching different HD channels or VOD streams - if they are to be any good then you're already in the 30Mbs range. That isn't feasible for ADSL is it?

If you try and deliver a service like that over ADSL - you're going to have to drop the picture quality significantly, or be SD only.

If you can deliver 50Mbs data to a house - then things get easier I guess.

(And if you analyse how much data is being sent over a full-capacity DVB-C feed it gets mind boggling! Freeview will be delivering 160Mbs of broadcast data when Freeview HD launches - 24x5 + 1x40 - and they only use 6 8MHz RF channels and can't use as efficient encoding as cable)


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## wonderboy (May 27, 2003)

I haven't been on here for a while since my main TV now uses SKY-HD, but this is great, great news. I still use a Tivo in the kitchen on Freeview.

If we can get a new box that could work with SKY that would be ideal, but I'd settle for one that did freeview at present.

I live in the middle of nowhere so there is bu**er all chance of ever getting cable or even any decent broadband (currently getting 5Mb Down ADSL which is more than I thought would happen).

If the new hardware can be used outwith the cable network then this is surely a step forward! Any change Virgin will offer a satelite service? What is their HD line-up like?

:up:


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

wonderboy said:


> Any change Virgin will offer a satelite service?


Pftt!! Good job I wasn't eating/drinking when I read that 



> What is their HD line-up like?


Depending on what you like it's not bad. Not as many as Sky/Satellite though.
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/tv/hdtv.html


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## Moe UK (Nov 27, 2009)

They claim that by August they will have most of the non Sky branded HD channels, this is when they have their annual investors meeting, this year days before the meeting they launched 4 HD channels with a further two which launched shortly afterwards bring it to a grand total of 8.

By the way, when Virgin talk of IPTV they do not mean TV over a internet connection but changing the way they deliver TV over their network, currently Cisco are deploy new equipment in their headends so that VM can employ multicast switching like some of the American Cable cos. Currently each headend broadcast every channel to every box regardless if someone is watching it or not. What mutlicasting will do is only broadcast the channels that people are watching which should, in theory, massivly reduce the amount of bandwith they use so they can have more HD, VOD and allocate more frequencies to broadband. They are already test 150MB connections in kent.


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## steford (Oct 9, 2002)

I'd be reluctant to switch back to cable as an ex-Videotron, ex C&W, ex NTL user. When I switched over to Sky not that long ago they still hadn't updated the network to fibre here so couldn't do broadband/interactive etc despite living in the capital city of the UK. Virgin Mobile CS seemed to be fine when I was with them and it couldn't be any worse than NTL - my service crashed 2 years on the trot at the weekend the day I went on holiday - and their CS was closed at the weekend so no Tivo'd progs on my return there.

The thought of HD, Tivo, BBC iPlayer and interactive services in the 1 box is very attractive though.


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## deshepherd (Nov 30, 2000)

Moe UK said:


> By the way, when Virgin talk of IPTV they do not mean TV over a internet connection but changing the way they deliver TV over their network, currently Cisco are deploy new equipment in their headends so that VM can employ multicast switching like some of the American Cable cos. Currently each headend broadcast every channel to every box regardless if someone is watching it or not. What mutlicasting will do is only broadcast the channels that people are watching which should, in theory, massivly reduce the amount of bandwith they use so they can have more HD, VOD and allocate more frequencies to broadband. They are already test 150MB connections in kent.


... so lets hope you don't try to change channel to something obscure and get a "this channel is not available at the moment, please try later" message ... this seems to happen fairly often on the limited times I used their VoD service and from what I've read this is down to lack of capacity.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I can't remember which thread it was, but someone was asking if I could find a list of the areas in which VM operate. Well, here you go!

http://www.virginmediainfo.co.uk/images/VM_Cabled_Areas_s.jpg

I have been asked to emphasis that this is a map of the *cabled area only* and not the VM "national" areas that use ADSL.

Also, that you can use the postcode checker available on VM's own site - http://allyours.virginmedia.com/ - to check if you can get VM's cable services in your area.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Also, that you can use the postcode checker available on VM's own site - http://allyours.virginmedia.com/ - to check if you can get VM's cable services in your area.


Ah, the notorious postcode checker that insists you cannot get cable when in fact you have their cable hooked up to the house, or all your neighbours have cable. Their CS database is even worse. You can order cable, and then they contact saying you can't have it, end of story, even though you plainly can.



They are such muppets they don't even want to take your money when you throw it at them.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

DeadKenny said:


> Ah, the notorious postcode checker that insists you cannot get cable when in fact you have their cable hooked up to the house, or all your neighbours have cable. Their CS database is even worse. You can order cable, and then they contact saying you can't have it, end of story, even though you plainly can.


Well yeah, there is that! Sorry. I did mean to mention it.

If you are having such problems you could always email

cablemystreet AT virginmedia DOT co DOT uk

and they should be able to help.;


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## randap (Jan 21, 2003)

I think this is good news. To save money (BT are expensive) I've switched to Sky Broadband and Talk - this means I save £20 per month and after the 12mth min term, I can switch to Virgin and get a new TiVo - I'll then use my exisiting S1 with the Sky box and Freesat. Life's good!!

Oh, and our first baby is due in 6 weeks - might call it TiVo.....(or probably not).


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## warrenrb (Jul 21, 2002)

All right... it's 2010. Where's my Virgin Tivo already?


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Neil Berkett (VirginMedia CEO) talks about TiVo from 3:40 onwards:
http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-overview


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Neil Berkett (VirginMedia CEO) talks about TiVo from 3:40 onwards:
> 
> http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-overview


Is he originally from Australia or New Zealand? From the accent I think he's Australian but I often get confused between the two.

Either way it seems to offer some explanation for Virgin's belated conversion to the adoption of the Tivo user interface.:up:


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## Richardr (Oct 20, 2000)

He is a New Zealander


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

UK newspapers picking up on TiVo now:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...h-could-make-British-television-personal.html


the telegraph said:


> ...in the UK market there has been no fully connected service that combines broadband-delivered, on-demand TV with linear channels and makes the whole lot searchable. Consequently, nothing has been able to recommend new shows based on a user's viewing history. Step forward TiVo...


UK Tivo boxes will be out by Christmas:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...adband-speeds-of-100mb-to-the-uk-1911233.html


the independent said:


> [TiVo CEO] said that by Christmas the group will be ready to release settop boxes through its partnership with TiVo as well as its new music service.


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