# STELAR Law signing kills Cablecards?



## allstarz (Nov 21, 2014)

The recent (Dec 5th) signing of this law by the W.H. Is claimed by some to make it difficult if not impossible to get cable cards from cable co.'s. There was an article posted on fiercewireless.com about this. Having read other threads in this forum regarding TiVo customers difficulties with Comcast cable cards one only wonders what this law's impact on TiVo box owners will be.
Would be interested in seeing a discussion on the impact of the law on TiVo customers. Having had an issue with cable company provided T.A. and reading posts of others with the same problem, it would seem pointless now to 'complain to the FCC' about anything cable card related.
If the law truly does 'kill the cablecard' does this kill the cable card reliant TiVo boxes like my Roamio?


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

All the law actually does is eliminate the requirement that the cable providers use devices that include Cablecards. The goal of that regulation was to ensure that third party devices like TiVos would be on an equal footing with the provider's own equipment. Of course, it never worked out that way since security was only a small portion of the larger issue of what constituted "equal footing."

So, cable providers are still required to issue Cablecards to customers on request, but are no longer required to use them themselves. There are, of course, millions of Cablecard based STBs out there now, so it will take years for them all to be replaced. In the meantime, while many cable providers may use the new bill to claim that they don't have to supply cards, the law does still requires them to issue Cablecards when requested. It may make things a bit more difficult, but it isn't like this is a smooth process now.


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## cjhrph (Sep 11, 2003)

It seems that you could make an argument that things are definitely going to be changing with respect to cable cards and TiVo equipment. 4 or 5 years down the road from today you have to wonder if the cable cards will still be around, and if they are, will they be supported by my local cable co.

Perhaps, for once, it may be a good idea to go with the yearly plan on the new Roamio Plus...


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## rickz0rz (Jul 3, 2014)

It looks like TiVo has been working with Comcast already on ways to make their boxes work without cablecard, so I think (at least with Comcast) we should be okay.

http://www.multichannel.com/news/tv-apps/comcast-tivo-working-non-cablecard-approach/375989

It might happen to be this solution would work with other operators if it proves to be viable enough, and it says within that article that Comcast would make it available for purchase to other operators.

And like what's been said before, I doubt cablecard is going away any time soon. There's just too much equipment in the field that requires them currently.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Passage of law certainly suggests that MSO's will look to ditch CableCards in new hardware lines. But that's at least 2-3 years down the road before a set-top box without a CableCard has any sort of market penetration. Legacy boxes with CableCards will still be issued for the next 2 years, at least, with a lifespan afterward of probably 3-5 years. 

It's at least 5 years until Cable companies could consider dropping support at the head end for CableCards.


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

tatergator1 said:


> Passage of law certainly suggests that MSO's will look to ditch CableCards in new hardware lines. But that's at least 2-3 years down the road before a set-top box without a CableCard has any sort of market penetration. Legacy boxes with CableCards will still be issued for the next 2 years, at least, with a lifespan afterward of probably 3-5 years.
> 
> It's at least 5 years until Cable companies could consider dropping support at the head end for CableCards.


No kidding. Take FiOS for instance. They've been heavily marketing the Quantum TV service and flooding their markets with the new Quantum equipment, the DVRs of which are cable card-driven. They're suddenly going to pull all that equipment for newer, non-cable card equipment? This is a company that still has many - many - STBs and DVRs in the field that won't accept their MPEG4 channels, so I can't seem them moving away from cable cards with any amount of expediency.


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## cjhrph (Sep 11, 2003)

That all being said, who thinks that the next retail version of the TiVo, if there is one, will be a cable card enabled device? 

I have read arguments that half of the reason a lifetime makes sense is for the resale value of the TiVo. No cable card technology puts the value of my new Roamio with lifetime in question 4 years down the road. Does it still make sense to do a lifetime on a box purchased today, if in fact, 4 years down the road there is different TiVo technology that works without the cable card, or you have to use a cable company device to use TiVo software?


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

cjhrph said:


> Does it still make sense to do a lifetime on a box purchased today, if in fact, 4 years down the road there is different TiVo technology that works without the cable card, or you have to use a cable company device to use TiVo software?


At this point in time, I would say yes. In my experience, Lifetime boxes purchased near MSRP have a break-even point of about 3 years when compared to monthly rental costs for a comparable box from your Cable provider. That is assuming no residual value of the Roamio. Hell, even with TWC, which still only has 2-tuner DVR's as default, you can still break even in under 3 years with a lifetimed Roamio Plus. The Roamio/Mini combination makes break-even more attractive for multiple TV households.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

cjhrph said:


> That all being said, who thinks that the next retail version of the TiVo, if there is one, will be a cable card enabled device?
> 
> I have read arguments that half of the reason a lifetime makes sense is for the resale value of the TiVo. No cable card technology puts the value of my new Roamio with lifetime in question 4 years down the road. Does it still make sense to do a lifetime on a box purchased today, if in fact, 4 years down the road there is different TiVo technology that works without the cable card, or you have to use a cable company device to use TiVo software?


Buying a TiVo is not an investment, it is an expenditure. You should expect to recoup nothing on the cost of a TiVo. Everyone's situation is different, and you need to run the numbers for yourself. In our case, the combination of moving from DirecTV to FiOS and buying 2 TiVo Roamio Pros and 5 Minis all with PLS (using the eBay discount codes) gave us break even in 16 months. In June, 2016 we will re-examine our options. If we are happy with FiOS and can still use our TiVos that will be fine (and we'll continue saving about $45/month). If not, we'll do something else. If we can sell our TiVos whatever we get will be gravy.

You need to do a similar analysis...personally, I never look out past 24 months. If it doesn't produce savings within 2 years it is questionable that it ever will, particularly when talking about a technology purchase.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> So, cable providers are still required to issue Cablecards to customers on request, but are no longer required to use them themselves. There are, of course, millions of Cablecard based STBs out there now, so it will take years for them all to be replaced. In the meantime, while many cable providers may use the new bill to claim that they don't have to supply cards, the law does still requires them to issue Cablecards when requested. It may make things a bit more difficult, but it isn't like this is a smooth process now.


Decades. There are still boxes that are pre-CableCard floating around.

This will have literally zero effect on retail CableCard usage, as the spirit of the integrated security ban was never enacted, since the cable companies found a way to segregate the CableCards used for their own boxes and for retail customers into two different worlds.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

AFAIK this doesn't allow them to stop supporting CableCARDs completely. It eliminates the integration ban, which requires them to use CableCARDs in their own boxes, but they are still required by law to issue and support CableCARDs for retail devices.

The purpose of the integration ban was to put retail devices and MSO supplied boxes on equal footing, so that buying a box at retail was no different then renting one from the MSO. It never actually worked out that way anyway so it's unlikely this will have much of an impact.

The FCC did issue a waiver to Charter which would allow them to stop issuing CableCARDs if they came up with an open alternative and there was at least one retail device on the market that used it. But so far nothing has come of it. And at this point I doubt anything will. Since they no longer need to include CableCARDs in their own devices there is no real reason for them to develop an open replacement for them. They'll keep using them for retail devices until one day the numbers in use are so small that they'll convince congress to just repeal the law and we'll be back to a system where renting a box from the MSO is the only option.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Wait, I thought there was some kind of agreement that ended up taking OUT the CableCard language from the bill?!?!?


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

mattack said:


> Wait, I thought there was some kind of agreement that ended up taking OUT the CableCard language from the bill?!?!?


The final bill did kill the integration ban which means that cable operators can now embed security into their leased set top boxes without using CableCARD. Some MSO's like Charter already had a waiver in place allowing them to deploy integrated set top boxes prior to the law change.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

sbiller said:


> Some MSO's like Charter already had a waiver in place allowing them to deploy integrated set top boxes prior to the law change.


Out of curiousity, does anyone know where Charter stands with satisfying the conditions of the waiver. It seems like it's been a long time since they initially gained approval and I though there was a time-limit for introducing a solution? A 3rd party retail device that could also use their integrated security standard was also required to satisfy the waiver, correct?


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

tatergator1 said:


> Out of curiousity, does anyone know where Charter stands with satisfying the conditions of the waiver. It seems like it's been a long time since they initially gained approval and I though there was a time-limit for introducing a solution? A 3rd party retail device that could also use their integrated security standard was also required to satisfy the waiver, correct?


I believe they no longer need to satisfy the conditions of the waiver.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> The FCC did issue a waiver to Charter which would allow them to stop issuing CableCARDs if they came up with an open alternative and there was at least one retail device on the market that used it. But so far nothing has come of it. And at this point I doubt anything will. Since they no longer need to include CableCARDs in their own devices there is no real reason for them to develop an open replacement for them. They'll keep using them for retail devices until one day the numbers in use are so small that they'll convince congress to just repeal the law and we'll be back to a system where renting a box from the MSO is the only option.


Linear TV is going to around for a long, long long time, but with the gazillions of CableCards in MSO-owned hardware, there are going to be enough CableCards for retail devices for decades and decades, probably longer than linear TV is going to be around as we know it.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Are there really "gazillions"? Heck, aren't there even more cable boxes/DVRs around from _before_ the integration ban?

That is, isn't it feasible that cable companies will come out with something else that we can't use an adapter for?

No, that's not meant as a sky as falling thing.. I think our cablecard devices will probably work for many years.. Decades, however?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

They are still required to support CC for now. They're just no longer required to use them in their own boxes. They still have to issue you one if you have a retail device that requires it, this law doesn't change that. 

What we really need is for the FCC to push them to come up with a universal standard as a replacement. Ideally it would be something like AllVid which would be separate from the tuner technology and required by all MSOs. That would give consumers to the most choices in the retail market because the boxes they could buy would be transportable between cable, DSS, IP based services, etc...


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

tatergator1 said:


> It's at least 5 years until Cable companies could consider dropping support at the head end for CableCards.


The way that Cox Cable (in my market) is promoting their new 6-tuner Baby Jesus DVR, it's hard to believe that they'd consider sunsetting it in just 5 years.  Be interesting to see how it pans out.



Diana Collins said:


> Buying a TiVo is not an investment, it is an expenditure. You should expect to recoup nothing on the cost of a TiVo. Everyone's situation is different, and you need to run the numbers for yourself. In our case, the combination of moving from DirecTV to FiOS and buying 2 TiVo Roamio Pros and 5 Minis all with PLS (using the eBay discount codes) gave us break even in 16 months.


I've seen the point made on the forum here that "investment" isn't the correct term to describe the scenario where (1) you spent money on a TiVo, (2) break-even on the money you spent after a certain number of months, (3) and then save money every month thereafter. What is the correct term?


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

aristoBrat said:


> What is the correct term?


Usually you use the terms* "payback period"* and *"salvage value"*. In this case a portion of the "salvage value" is the use of the equipment without cost plus the resale value on e-bay.

The cable companies probably not refuse to issue CABLEcards right away when under the new law they will be able to raise the monthly price. RCN charges $2 per month (I am not sure what other companies charge). But why piss people off directly when you can create a new profit center? Eventually, the higher price will discourage the market.

Depending on the cable company, payback period is usually around 2 years. I suspect that payback period will jump up to three to four years with higher rental fees for the cards.

Salvage value may drop because the only customers are in the over the air market.

Tivo also sells to cable companies directly who lease the equipment to customers. So it is unlikely that the company will go away.

In any case, it is unlikely that first run scripted broadcasts will be distributed over the air in five years. It is too easy to record and skip commercials. I suspect live TV will be restricted to reality, competitive variety, news, and sports very soon with video on demand the only way to watch high quality scripted shows.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

Diana Collins said:


> Buying a TiVo is not an investment, it is an expenditure.


Goes on the "Entertainment" line of your budget.
Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

An investment is something purchased that is expected to have MORE value in the future. For example, in some cases, a home purchase may be an investment (but probably not if you bought one in 2007, unless you are willing to hold it for a long time). There are few if any scenarios where a TiVo purchase will increase in value over time. That makes it an expenditure which MAY reduce costs so that an overall savings is realized, but that is spending less, not getting any additional income or reaping a profit.

Really the most applicable term is simply "cost savings" or one the more finance oriented terms Pacomartin suggests...IMHO, "salvage value" or "amortized cost" are the most appropriate.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mattack said:


> Are there really "gazillions"? Heck, aren't there even more cable boxes/DVRs around from _before_ the integration ban?


Yeah, there are a lot of CableCards out there in MSO-owned boxes.



aristoBrat said:


> The way that Cox Cable (in my market) is promoting their new 6-tuner Baby Jesus DVR, it's hard to believe that they'd consider sunsetting it in just 5 years.  Be interesting to see how it pans out.


I'm not familiar with the Cox Baby Jesus system (although I think Comcast thinks they own Baby Jesus with the X1, even though it seems like a cheap knockoff of what TiVo was doing a couple of years ago), but some systems *might* have the ability to use downloadable security without CableCards, but I'm not familiar enough with their hardware or the CableLabs specs to know for sure.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Pacomartin said:


> The cable companies probably not refuse to issue CABLEcards right away when under the new law they will be able to raise the monthly price.


That's not true. The STELAR bill only repeals one sentence of the original CableCARD law...



> SEC. 105. REPEAL OF INTEGRATION BAN.
> 
> (a) No Force or Effect- The second sentence of section 76.1204(a)(1) of title 47, Code of Federal Regulations, shall have no force or effect after the date of the enactment of this Act.
> 
> (b) Removal From Rules- Not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Commission shall complete all actions necessary to remove the sentence described in subsection (a) from its rules.


The second sentence of section 76.1204(a)(1) of title 47 reads...



> 76.1204 Availability of equipment performing conditional access or security functions.
> (a)
> (1) A multichannel video programming distributor that utilizes navigation devices to perform conditional access functions shall make available equipment that incorporates only the conditional access functions of such devices. *Commencing on July 1, 2007, no multichannel video programming distributor subject to this section shall place in service new navigation devices for sale, lease, or use that perform both conditional access and other functions in a single integrated device.*


The first sentence, and section b, is where they establish the rule that requires CableCARDs to be made available to work with 3rd party devices. And the rules on pricing are actually put in place by the FCC.

The ONLY thing STELAR does is allow MSOs to use boxes with integrated security. It does not allow them to stop issuing CableCARDs nor does it negate the pricing/activation rules the FCC has put in place.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Are their limits to what cable companies can charge for cablecards?

*************

Many of these companies are just putting out new cablecard systems. 

X1 uses cablecard doesn't it? Some one mentioned Verizon's new system. 

These guys are motivated to replace cablecard because of cheaper costs. But they also want to make a proper return on their capital expenditures.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> The ONLY thing STELAR does is allow MSOs to use boxes with integrated security. It does not allow them to stop issuing CableCARDs nor does it negate the pricing/activation rules the FCC has put in place.


WHEW.



trip1eX said:


> Are their limits to what cable companies can charge for cablecards?
> 
> *************
> X1 uses cablecard doesn't it? Some one mentioned Verizon's new system.


Others have quoted the rules. Apparently it says "reasonable", which does not have an exact value associated with it.

You also are SUPPOSED to get a slight rebate for customer owned equipment (i.e. you own your Tivo).

X1 is just regular comcast cable.. So it must be currently using CableCard, and in the future
could theoretically have the same decryption capabilities directly in the motherboard I guess.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

mattack said:


> WHEW.
> 
> Others have quoted the rules. Apparently it says "reasonable", which does not have an exact value associated with it.
> 
> ...


Comcast provides me a free cablecard for my Pro and a $2.50 monthly credit for my Pro (COE). Of course, the above did not happen with my first bill. I had to call in and direct the CSR to the online Comcast documentation that spells it out since the CSR was unaware of it. The CSR applied the appropriate credits to my first bill. Subsequent bills have been correct. BTW, I learned about the free cablecard and COE credit from:


Spoiler



tivocommunity.com.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

mattack said:


> WHEW.
> You also are SUPPOSED to get a slight rebate for customer owned equipment (i.e. you own your Tivo).


A lot of games are played by cable companies. If I used their STB w/DVR it would be a $7.95/month "fee". They unbundle the hadware to keep the advertised price for a "service" low, then make it up with fees. My HD "service" is free, but there's a $13/mo "HD/3D Technology Fee". Cable cards are $3/mo for me. I figure all I'm supposed to get is a reasonable signal. Beyond that it's all wishing. This year they started listing a fee for retransmission of broadcasts.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

trip1eX said:


> Are their limits to what cable companies can charge for cablecards?


Short answer: No.

In practice the rates have been kept reasonable to date (usually less than $5.00), but that could change over time.

The FCC guidelines from 2011 state: "Typically operators charge $2-4 per month to rent a CableCARD." These are only guidelines, however. And, besides, the FCC does not do much in the way of consumer protection or regulatory enforcement these days.

If you are interested, here are the applicable FCC rules regarding CableCARD fees:

FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5)

FCC Rule 76.1602(b)


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

chiguy50 said:


> Short answer: No.
> 
> In practice the rates have been kept reasonable to date (usually less than $5.00), but that could change over time.
> 
> ...


And of course, Comcast routinely violates the uniform rental fee requirement in those rules and gets away with it even in the face of multiple FCC complaints.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> And of course, Comcast routinely violates the uniform rental fee requirement in those rules and gets away with it even in the face of multiple FCC complaints.


What are they doing illegally? They charge $2.50/mo less than a regular box I think. Maybe it's $2.25 or $2.75. But whatever it is, you get that credit for your first CableCard, and then every one thereafter is something like $7.50/mo instead of $10/mo.

I choose to do a run-around on them with an XL4/Mini setup, but that's beyond what they need to know.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Read what I said and then read the rules that chiguy50 linked, Bigg. Plenty of us here have.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Bigg said:


> What are they doing illegally? They charge $2.50/mo less than a regular box I think. Maybe it's $2.25 or $2.75. But whatever it is, you get that credit for your first CableCard, and then every one thereafter is something like $7.50/mo instead of $10/mo.
> 
> I choose to do a run-around on them with an XL4/Mini setup, but that's beyond what they need to know.


What Comcast is doing is almost certainly not illegal (I don't recall anyone here using that term anyway); it's just a devious circumvention of the fee guidelines. Simply stated, they are removing the line-item billing for each CableCARD and substituting a much higher "Digital Service" (sometimes listed as "Additional Digital Outlet") fee of around $10 for all but the first unit. If you are getting the "Customer Owned Equipment" credit (usually $2.50)--which not all subscribers automatically receive--that reduces the per-unit charge to $7.50, which is still considerably higher than the FCC has proposed.

And adding to the muddle is the lack of uniformity across Comcast's national system, so that one subscriber's charges may differ from another's using the exact same equipment. Sometimes there are regional variances which could be ascribed to incomplete consolidation of acquired operations, but the discrepancies have been known to exist even within the same metropolitan area (such as mine in Atlanta).


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

chiguy50 said:


> What Comcast is doing is almost certainly not illegal (I don't recall anyone here using that term anyway); it's just a devious circumvention of the fee guidelines. Simply stated, they are removing the line-item billing for each CableCARD and substituting a much higher "Digital Service" (sometimes listed as "Additional Digital Outlet") fee of around $10 for all but the first unit. If you are getting the "Customer Owned Equipment" credit (usually $2.50)--which not all subscribers automatically receive--that reduces the per-unit charge to $7.50, which is still considerably higher than the FCC has proposed.
> 
> And adding to the muddle is the lack of uniformity across Comcast's national system, so that one subscriber's charges may differ from another's using the exact same equipment. Sometimes there are regional variances which could be ascribed to incomplete consolidation of acquired operations, but the discrepancies have been known to exist even within the same metropolitan area (such as mine in Atlanta).


Yeah, it doesn't really meet the intent of the FCC rules around CableCard, I'll agree with you there, but the FCC didn't envision an environment where you can have one 6 tuner, 6TB DVR that serves up to 9 (is the limit more than 10 per account now?) other TVs with content all with a single CableCard, so I think TiVo has successfully engineered their way around this problem.

And yes, the uniformity is a huge problem. Their billing is not uniform, they have various different systems with different capacity, with some having far more HD (and SD) channels than others, and slightly different internet options. A friend of mine works for a subcontractor of Comcast's that does late payments to get their service turned back on, and he said they use three different software systems for different regions that are totally incompatible. It's a complete mess internally at every level.

Here in CT, I'm on a 625mhz Sci Atlanta system, they also have 860 SA, 860 Moto, 750 SA, 750 Moto, 650 SA, and 625 Moto plants. With X1, Moto and SA don't matter so much anymore, but the sub-860 plants just don't have the space for everything. Even the 860 plants are way behind some other national providers in terms of HD channels, since they haven't yet upgraded to H.264. And those are all in the Hartford, CT market for Comcast.

What pisses me off even more about that is that here in Groton, where we have 70 HD's, we pay about the same as Branford, with their shiny new rebuilt 860 Moto plant that has over 120 HD's and more SDs and slightly faster internet.

And now they think they can take over TWC with mostly SA equipment using SDV and swap markets with Charter and then somehow make a coherent national offering out of that mess?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

JoeKustra said:


> My HD "service" is free, but there's a $13/mo "HD/3D Technology Fee".


Is that even if you have only ONE Tivo on your account and no other cable boxes?


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

Bigg said:


> What are they doing illegally? They charge $2.50/mo less than a regular box I think. Maybe it's $2.25 or $2.75. But whatever it is, you get that credit for your first CableCard, and then every one thereafter is something like $7.50/mo instead of $10/mo.
> 
> I choose to do a run-around on them with an XL4/Mini setup, but that's beyond what they need to know.


Just an FYI:

Comcast COE Policy

Comcast Cablecard Policy

I'm with Comcast. I do not use their internet or phone service, only their TV service. I get a $2.50 COE credit for my Pro (I have a Mini as well), I do not pay for my Morotola cablecard, and I do not pay an HD Technology Fee. Other than what I pay for the Digital Preferred Package, I only pay $1.50 additional for the Broadcast TV Fee. Of course, there are taxes included in the monthly bill as well.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

cjhrph said:


> That all being said, who thinks that the next retail version of the TiVo, if there is one, will be a cable card enabled device?
> 
> I have read arguments that half of the reason a lifetime makes sense is for the resale value of the TiVo. No cable card technology puts the value of my new Roamio with lifetime in question 4 years down the road. Does it still make sense to do a lifetime on a box purchased today, if in fact, 4 years down the road there is different TiVo technology that works without the cable card, or you have to use a cable company device to use TiVo software?


I have never bought a lifetime because everything becomes obsolete eventually. There have been numerous reports of TiVo customers having issues with transferring lifetimes to new units, and even to new other people when they sell or give away and old box. A series 1 TiVo today with a valid lifetime, is a useless box!!! I think even series 2 boxes with lifetimes are still a useless box since OTA went full digital years ago.

Eventual premiere and romios will be that way when they start OTA broadcasting 4K in 2017or18. 4k broadcasting is suppose to start on some cable services with one channel even as early as 2016. HBO wants to be the first 4k premium channel. With that being the case even if it takes till 2020. Premieres and romio will be long obsolete.

Tgc


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Linear TV is going to around for a long, long long time, but with the gazillions of CableCards in MSO-owned hardware, there are going to be enough CableCards for retail devices for decades and decades, probably longer than linear TV is going to be around as we know it.


Not if the director of the FCC has anything to say about it. He has a long term goal of doing away with OTA all together in favore of a widespread OTA high speed internet service that would use the old bandwidth of current OTA. Probably won't happen though till 2030 at the earliest.

But as more people drop cable in favor of streaming services and renting discs. Who knows! Internet has taken off faster then anyone ever expected And gone in directions no one expected.

Tgc


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Suddenlink here in Texas as well as I think a couple of other small time cable companies are actually using TiVo's as their DVR's. 

I wish I ha d suddenlink. I would get one TiVo from them and use the rest of mine, that way giving me on demand and pay per view from the suddenlink TiVo and full TiVo capabilities from the rest!

Those units all have cable cards, so I don't believe cable card usage will disappear anytime soon, unless someone devises a new alternative which is accepted and implemented,


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

kokishin said:


> Just an FYI:
> 
> Comcast COE Policy
> 
> ...


And that is the "correct" (viz. appropriate) billing for your setup IAW Comcast's fee structure. Congratulations, you win billing roulette!

As a further illustration of the sometimes arbitrary nature of Comcast's billing procedures, I turned in one of my two CableCARDs last month when I sold my second Premiere and replaced it with a Mini (primarily to get rid of the annoying $10 Digital Service charge for the second outlet and spurred by the chance to get a Mini w/PLS for under $85). Up until that time I was receiving two $2.50 COE credits; but they BOTH vanished with the removal of the second CableCARD. I had to call billing and have them add the one COE back in.

Whether random or intentional, this shows that Comcast's billing system is at best unreliable and inconsistent. (Or as they proclaim in their corporate motto: caveat emptor!)


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

All cable co's of all varieties have billing issues! What else is new? Lol


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

mattack said:


> Is that even if you have only ONE Tivo on your account and no other cable boxes?


Yes. I started with one Premiere & one cable card. I got a Roamio and another card. No change in fee, and only another $2.95 for the card. My provider doesn't charge for extra stuff inside the house. At one time it did, but that was several years ago.

Should I mention that I had no cable box for a few years since everything I needed was clear QAM? That ends in two months though.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

kokishin said:


> I'm with Comcast. I do not use their internet or phone service, only their TV service. I get a $2.50 COE credit for my Pro (I have a Mini as well), I do not pay for my Morotola cablecard, and I do not pay an HD Technology Fee. Other than what I pay for the Digital Preferred Package, I only pay $1.50 additional for the Broadcast TV Fee. Of course, there are taxes included in the monthly bill as well.


I don't pay the HD fee either, but in some areas, it's a programming fee, not an equipment fee, so TiVo users have to pay it. Yeah, it's a mess!



TexasGrillChef said:


> Not if the director of the FCC has anything to say about it. He has a long term goal of doing away with OTA all together in favore of a widespread OTA high speed internet service that would use the old bandwidth of current OTA. Probably won't happen though till 2030 at the earliest.


HUH? We're talking about cable.


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I have never bought a lifetime because everything becomes obsolete eventually.


Indeed. But lifetime service has typically had a breakeven point at about 30 months compared to month-to-month. Much less than that if you factor in that a two generation obsolete TiVo will ebay for about $200 more with lifetime than without.

I bought a Series 1 TiVo in 2001 and paid $299 for lifetime. I bought a Series 3 in 2006 and paid $199 to transfer the lifetime service. That TiVo ran happily until early this year. I sold it for $330 with lifetime where non-lifetime units were selling for less than $100, if they were selling at all. Let's call it a $200 premium for the lifetime.

So I've paid $298 for 13 years of TiVo service which would have been about $1558.44 at the $9.99 per month 2001 service plan. Were there some risks involved? Yep. You mentioned some of them. But I'm happy. I paid $399 for lifetime for my Roamio Plus without a second thought.

-- Doug


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm typically too lazy to sell used TiVos, so I hand them down to family instead. My Mom has two lifetime Premiere units and my sister has the lifetime XL4 all of which were previously mine. They will likely continue to use these for many years, in addition to the 2-3 years I got out of each one, so the lifetime service was well worth the investment.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> And that is the "correct" (viz. appropriate) billing for your setup IAW Comcast's fee structure. Congratulations, you win billing roulette!
> 
> As a further illustration of the sometimes arbitrary nature of Comcast's billing procedures, I turned in one of my two CableCARDs last month when I sold my second Premiere and replaced it with a Mini (primarily to get rid of the annoying $10 Digital Service charge for the second outlet and spurred by the chance to get a Mini w/PLS for under $85). Up until that time I was receiving two $2.50 COE credits; but they BOTH vanished with the removal of the second CableCARD. I had to call billing and have them add the one COE back in.
> 
> *Whether random or intentional, this shows that Comcast's billing system is at best unreliable and inconsistent. (Or as they proclaim in their corporate motto: caveat emptor!)*


Totally agree along with their CSR's being clueless. Of course, I had to ask for my COE credit and free cablecard after I got my first bill which was incorrect. I even had to provide the Comcast policy links to the CSR (over the phone) before they would even believe that I was entitled to a COE credit and free cablecard.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I have never bought a lifetime because everything becomes obsolete eventually. There have been numerous reports of TiVo customers having issues with transferring lifetimes to new units, and even to new other people when they sell or give away and old box. A series 1 TiVo today with a valid lifetime, is a useless box!!! I think even series 2 boxes with lifetimes are still a useless box since OTA went full digital years ago.


I assume then that you never buy any electronic equipment if you have the option to rent it instead.

Anyone who thought/thinks they should be able to transfer lifetime service to a new box is/was a fool. TiVo never promised nor in any way even implied that this was an option. TiVo made it abundantly clear that you were buying lifetime service _*for that box*_, not a lifetime "subscription" for yourself.

BTW, I'm still using a lifetimed Series 2 TiVo. It's hooked up to an SD cable box (controlled via serial connection) and is feeding an old analog TV. Other people are using them with an OTA converter boxes or cable DTAs. Somebody is buying those direct connect control cables.

I happen to think there are sometimes valid _*economic*_ reasons for choosing monthly over lifetime. Future obsolescence does not figure into that calculation.

It's absurd to think that _*anything*_ will be available solely in 4K anytime in the near future, much less everything, rendering the current equipment of almost everyone (including the currently deployed cable co equipment) useless.


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## cjhrph (Sep 11, 2003)

DougJohnson said:


> Indeed. But lifetime service has typically had a breakeven point at about 30 months compared to month-to-month. Much less than that if you factor in that a two generation obsolete TiVo will ebay for about $200 more with lifetime than without.


That was my point. If cable card technology is on the way out, and it is, that residual resale value is no longer part of the equation. It's hard for me to believe that 48-60 months from now, the cable card enabled TiVo will have anywhere near that resale value at all.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Completely ignoring that Tivo will come up with a software-based auth scheme to replace cards (they're working on one with Comcast), sure. But my guess is that Roamios will get that upgrade if it ever comes out, so they could still have value 4-5 years from now.


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

cjhrph said:


> That was my point. If cable card technology is on the way out, and it is, that residual resale value is no longer part of the equation. It's hard for me to believe that 48-60 months from now, the cable card enabled TiVo will have anywhere near that resale value at all.


Even if the TiVo is worthless in 48 months, you are still ahead with lifetime. I know I sound like a lifetime fanboy. I am, kind of. I *hate* monthly payments. For me, there is less total pain in one big upfront payment than a little pain each month.

I'd be less concerned about cable cards and more concerned about universal on-demand. At its core, TiVo is a great time shifting box, based on the broadcast/cable model where you can only see something when the broadcasters are willing to send it to you. TiVo lets you see something anytime after they send it to you. My wife and I haven't watched live TV in years.

With on-demand taking over, TiVo becomes just another set top box. Expensive compared to Apple TV, Amazon, WDTV, HTPC, and many others.

-- Doug


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## cjhrph (Sep 11, 2003)

Indeed, the on-demand offerings are certainly changing things rapidly. The whole family loves the Roku 3. 

I ended up doing the yearly plan on the new plus.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DougJohnson said:


> Even if the TiVo is worthless in 48 months, you are still ahead with lifetime. I know I sound like a lifetime fanboy. I am, kind of. I *hate* monthly payments. For me, there is less total pain in one big upfront payment than a little pain each month.


Making monthly TiVo service payments is a tax on people who think math is hard. Please stop discouraging folks from paying their taxes!


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> Making monthly TiVo service payments is a tax on people who think math is hard. Please stop discouraging folks from paying their taxes!


And statements such as that are made by people who think that a simple arithmetic comparison is the only thing that is involved when making financial decisions.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

cjhrph said:


> That was my point. If cable card technology is on the way out, and it is, that residual resale value is no longer part of the equation. It's hard for me to believe that 48-60 months from now, the cable card enabled TiVo will have anywhere near that resale value at all.


At 48-60 months with Lifetime, the thing has already paid for itself once over or more. And CableCard isn't going anywhere for some time to come. I could see Verizon somehow getting around it, since they don't have a coax physical plant, but the incumbent cable providers are going to be stuck with it for quite some time to come. Way longer than anyone is going to want lowly 1080p stuff, or the current Premiere or Roamio designs.



ej42137 said:


> Making monthly TiVo service payments is a tax on people who think math is hard. Please stop discouraging folks from paying their taxes!


HAHAHA, so true!


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## cjhrph (Sep 11, 2003)

I don't know, I have had lifetime on 2 HD's 2 Premiers, and 1 Mini. I sold one HD to upgrade, and the other HD had a motherboard failure so I parted the power supply out. Both around the 5 year mark. 

The yearly fee they offered me is $129 for the first year and $99 year each year after that on the plus I purchased. Seemed fair considering the cable cards are going to be obsolete and the plus wont be worth too much in 5 years. 

I have come to the conclusion that personally, I am just not going to keep them for more than 5 years. I like new technology. 

So, that being said, Ill be into this box for $525 in subscription fees by then, $125 more than I would have paid with the lifetime. Not the end of the world. Should the technology change and Tivo release a new product in 3-4 years, I am in good shape.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Well just because you get lifetime doesn't mean you keep it for a lifetime. Many with lifetime sell their old box to get the new box. 

Some with Premieres did that to get a new Roamio.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Well just because you get lifetime doesn't mean you keep it for a lifetime. Many with lifetime sell their old box to get the new box.
> 
> Some with Premieres did that to get a new Roamio.


He thinks they'll be useless in a few years and thus have no resale value.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> He thinks they'll be useless in a few years and thus have no resale value.


That could be true. Or at least have significantly reduced resale value. Charter has a waiver that allows them to stop issuing new CableCARDs if they deploy a downloadable standard that is open and available on at least one retail device. So even though they will likely support existing CableCARDs for many years to come, if they are allowed to stop issuing new ones then the resale value of a TiVo that requires a CableCARD could plummet.

I personally would not count on the resale value of lifetime as a selling point. But I still think it's worth it given that break even is 26 months and you'll likely have the TiVo for longer then that anyway.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I personally would not count on the resale value of lifetime as a selling point. But I still think it's worth it given that break even is 26 months and you'll likely have the TiVo for longer then that anyway.


I agree 100%. Resale value has never entered into my decision about lifetime vs. monthly.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> He thinks they'll be useless in a few years and thus have no resale value.


Yeah. I was stealthily commenting on the "I like new technology" part of his post by pointing out that Lifetime doesn't preclude you from getting a new box.

And if you are always quick to update to the latest and greatest you'll probably always have a good resale value.


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## allstarz (Nov 21, 2014)

I started this thread because I had concern about the longevity of my investment in the Roamio I recently purchased, that was elevated from the problems I recently had with the Charter TA (that is required with a cable card on SDV systems). The Charter techs have been consistent in telling me they do not have many cable card customers (in this service area anyway). This area also will likely become Comcast if the merger is approved.
Thank you for all the great posts, there is a lot of really interesting information here!


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I personally would not count on the resale value of lifetime as a selling point. But I still think it's worth it given that break even is 26 months and you'll likely have the TiVo for longer then that anyway.


Reselling my lifetimed boxes has cut my upgrade cost in half, every time, so lifetime essentially pays for itself in a couple of years. And as I said before, I'm really not concerned about the future of cards given that they'll likely still be around 5 years from now, and if they aren't there will be a software-based successor. JMHO.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

allstarz said:


> I started this thread because I had concern about the longevity of my investment in the Roamio I recently purchased, that was elevated from the problems I recently had with the Charter TA (that is required with a cable card on SDV systems). The Charter techs have been consistent in telling me they do not have many cable card customers (in this service area anyway). This area also will likely become Comcast if the merger is approved.
> Thank you for all the great posts, there is a lot of really interesting information here!


I wonder what the penetration of cablecards is anyway. The last couple of Cox techs I've asked have told me there are only around 200 cablecards in their system, which I've gotta think is BS because their franchise area here covers about 200,000 population. 200 = 1/1000th of that so that seems far fetched don't you think? Then again, they do seem to hate cablecards though so maybe it is true!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> Reselling my lifetimed boxes has cut my upgrade cost in half, every time, so lifetime essentially pays for itself in a couple of years. And as I said before, I'm really not concerned about the future of cards given that they'll likely still be around 5 years from now, and if they aren't there will be a software-based successor. JMHO.


There will definately be a software successor at some pount, but there is no guarantee it will be supported by the current hardware. Whether you're using software or a CableCARD you're talking about decrypting 6 encrypted streams simultaneously. Right now the burden of the decryption is on the card. If that were to move to software I'm not positive the CPU in the Roamio would be able to handle it. They may need to release a new unit with a special decryption chip for it to work. If that's the case then older units will quickly lose all their resale value, especially if the MSOs stop issuing new cards.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

We're also assuming that TiVo will have "hardware" in the future. They do seem very interested in their Cloud solution.

Hope I'm wrong.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

DigitalDawn said:


> We're also assuming that TiVo will have "hardware" in the future. They do seem very interested in their Cloud solution.
> 
> Hope I'm wrong.


A cloud system has to be MSO-based, so if they got rid of hardware, that would also mean they would be killing off their retail market. I don't see that happening. Plus some of the MSOs that they are selling to aren't big enough to build their own cloud-based DVRs like CableVision, so that's all very unlikely anyway.


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