# Poor Closed Captions



## PedjaR (Jan 4, 2010)

I have noticed that on some channels (SyFyHD most notably; all shows I've seen there are bad in that respect) closed captions are very poor - sometimes they show OK for a minute, then disappear altogether for a long stretch; sometimes they show in some weird, unreadable script font; sometimes they cover only a small portion of what was actually said. Broadcast network shows usually are OK. The reason I am posting in Tivo forum is that I have not noticed this problem with the Time Warner cable DVR I used to rent. The captions on the same SyFy channel seemed generally reliable, and it never, ever, showed the weird font. Am I imagining things, or is Tivo more sensitive to imperfect CC then cable DVR? I don't have the cable DVR any more, so I can not confirm using the exact same show.


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## ItsRounder (Feb 28, 2010)

What if you turn on your TV's closed captioning to see if it's a problem with the captions themselves? Does the TV show them properly? I watch quite a bit of closed captioning with my Tivo and haven't had the issues you're reporting. My TiVo always says that there are no closed captions even when there are but I just ignore what it says.


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## PedjaR (Jan 4, 2010)

ItsRounder said:


> What if you turn on your TV's closed captioning to see if it's a problem with the captions themselves? Does the TV show them properly? I watch quite a bit of closed captioning with my Tivo and haven't had the issues you're reporting. My TiVo always says that there are no closed captions even when there are but I just ignore what it says.


Can you try one of SyFyHD shows (I had issues with just about any of them - Haven, Eureka, Warehouse 13, Stargate Universe)? I can't get that channel on TV without going through Tivo (it's encripted). Tivo does not pass closed captions through to the TV, it just overlays them. I did notice that it sometimes says there are no CC, but they are there anyway.


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## ItsRounder (Feb 28, 2010)

What I mean is that when it's playing on your TiVo you can still turn on the TV's closed captioning and it will get the data from the TiVo. You can even turn on both the TV's and TiVo's subtitles at the same time. Compare what the TV shows vs. what the TiVo shows and that should let you know if the TiVo is the problem or if it's the subtitles themselves.


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## PedjaR (Jan 4, 2010)

ItsRounder said:


> What I mean is that when it's playing on your TiVo you can still turn on the TV's closed captioning and it will get the data from the TiVo. You can even turn on both the TV's and TiVo's subtitles at the same time. Compare what the TV shows vs. what the TiVo shows and that should let you know if the TiVo is the problem or if it's the subtitles themselves.


I was trying to tell you that the TV does not get the CC data from Tivo. I can watch a clear QAM channel (with known good captions) bypassing Tivo and it will show TV's captions OK; I can watch the same channel through Tivo and it will only show Tivo's captions (i.e will not show TVs's captions at all). 
So, I can not check TV's captions on the particular channel (SyFyHD) I am having problems with, as it is encrypted.


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## Andrel (Oct 19, 2000)

To use the CC decoder from your TV, your Tivo resolution has to be at 480. 720 or 1080 does not pass through the data.


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## PedjaR (Jan 4, 2010)

Andrel said:


> To use the CC decoder from your TV, your Tivo resolution has to be at 480. 720 or 1080 does not pass through the data.


480i does not either. I turned off the other resolutions and played both an SD and an HD content, neither passed CC to the TV (both have CC when Tivo was bypassed).


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## mblloyd (Feb 11, 2007)

Our closed captioning problem hit the pain threshold last night. The problem was (with recorded CSI) truncated sentences, missing text not garbled words. This was happening about 25&#37; of the time.
So I hooked up the TiVo Prem. to an old analog set via composite cable plus RCA audio, disconnecting everything else from the HDTV (Samsung UN-40C6300SFXZA)
and TiVo. The old analog tv decoded the entire text correctly, without fault; but the TiVo generated captioning would consistently fail to display the same words of the spoken text.
I then tried both component and composite video on the HDTV with TiVo generated captioning; but both ways, the TV displayed the same truncated video text as with the HDMI connection! Does the HDTV have the same fault as the TiVo? Aside - As reported elsewhere, this HDTV design will not internally decode any captioning fed from any type of TiVo video signal, i.e., only direct cable feeds into the TV will enable internal caption decoding.
This generated a call to TiVo support. They offered to replace the unit. I also learned that this replacement unit, for my 6 months old unit, will use up my 2-year warranty. A two year warranty is good for 2-years or until you make a claim - whichever comes first! Maybe everyone but me knew that.

Solution found - turn off digital captioning, using analog captioning only


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## PedjaR (Jan 4, 2010)

mblloyd said:


> ...
> 
> Solution found - turn off digital captioning, using analog captioning only


Thanks, that worked great. I did not know that on digital channels you still get analog captioning.


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## hcloyes (Mar 18, 2005)

My problem with CC is different than these ideas. I can turn CC on but the sound is still on, I have to mute the sound. The difference with my Series 2 is that when I click the mute button the sound is muted and CC turns on. My premiere TIVO does not give me any options for how I want CC to be displayed. Is this a mistake or was the Premier set up to be different from previous versions


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

That sounds like a TV or receiver feature and not a TiVo feature with your Series 2. Our old Toshiba TV would do that (turn on closed captioning when you muted it) before we connected it through a receiver for surround sound at which time the mute operated on the receiver and not the TV.

Scott


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## tattube (Oct 24, 2010)

hcloyes said:


> My problem with CC is different than these ideas. I can turn CC on but the sound is still on, I have to mute the sound. The difference with my Series 2 is that when I click the mute button the sound is muted and CC turns on. *My premiere TIVO does not give me any options for how I want CC to be displayed*. Is this a mistake or was the Premier set up to be different from previous versions


From Tivo Central, go to messages & settings > settings > displays > closed captioning.
There you will find options for font type, font size and color. Also, background color


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## tattube (Oct 24, 2010)

mblloyd said:


> Solution found - turn off digital captioning, using analog captioning only


Since I set up the TPXL I have always gotten a 'not available' banner when trying to access CC on my Samsung Plasma HDTV, using the Samsung remote.

When you turned off digital captioning, which cable setup were you using to get CC to work on your HDTV?
I just tried turning off digital captioning and still get the 'not available' banner, using HDMI cable.

Slightly off topic:
Is there a way to turn on CC with the Tivo remote without having to scroll through the info menu?


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## KevinWP (Oct 27, 2007)

Disabling the digital CC stream and forcing the tivo to output the analog CC stream solved my problem. (I had unusable CC's in Sherlock Holmes recorded off HBOHD last night. Switching to analog CC's and replaying the saved program confirmed this is the solution I needed))

This should be added to a generic TIVO FAQ somewhere as a problem and solution.

It's also pathetic that the box cannot decode a digital text stream. Is it a problem with the digital CC implementation on HBO? As passed on by my local cable company? or is it a problem with the Tivo Premier itself?

Thanks!

Kevin


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## KevinWP (Oct 27, 2007)

tattube said:


> Slightly off topic:
> Is there a way to turn on CC with the Tivo remote without having to scroll through the info menu?


Nevermind.. I just realized I misread your question.


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## darksurtur (Jan 2, 2008)

tattube said:


> Slightly off topic:
> Is there a way to turn on CC with the Tivo remote without having to scroll through the info menu?


I assume you mean hitting the info button, scrolling down to the fifth item, and hitting enter? Yes, that is the fastest way, as far as I can tell (I've tried to find a faster one). A remote macro is the only alternative, as far as I can tell.


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## tattube (Oct 24, 2010)

darksurtur said:


> I assume you mean hitting the info button, scrolling down to the fifth item, and hitting enter select? Yes, that is the fastest way, as far as I can tell (I've tried to find a faster one). A remote macro is the only alternative, as far as I can tell.


Are there macros out there for tivo remotes?
Where to get them and how to install?
I would not know where to begin if asked to write a macro.


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## mblloyd (Feb 11, 2007)

tattube said:


> Since I set up the TPXL I have always gotten a 'not available' banner when trying to access CC on my Samsung Plasma HDTV, using the Samsung remote.
> 
> When you turned off digital captioning, which cable setup were you using to get CC to work on your HDTV?
> I just tried turning off digital captioning and still get the 'not available' banner, using HDMI cable.
> ...


-----

In my view, you seem to be mixing up the responsibility for putting closed captioning on the screen. My experience was also with a Samsung TV and an HDMI cable. My Samsung cannot (will not) develop closed captioning from the TiVo signal. Therefore, when I tried using the Samsung closed captioning command, I got 'not available' also. So make sure the Samsung closed captioning is not selected.

Instead, I use the TiVo 'Info' screen's scheme to chose closed captioning. This way the Samsung is not involved with generating closed captioning. The closed captioning is generated in the TiVo and sent imbedded to the Samsung via HDMI. And the Samsung shouldn't even be aware of any captioning effort.

It is under this circumstance that I found poor captioning coming from the TiVo, characterized mostly by dropped text. I also have found that, regardless of what kind of closed captioning the TiVo 'info' screen says is available, the captioning was messed up in multiple ways unless I pre-setup closed captioning via Settings, Displays, Close Captioning, Standard Captions (misnamed earlier as 'analog') as 'CC1,' and Digital Captions as 'None.' In my experience this is flawless.

Sorry for being windy, but this tracks my interpretation of your circumstance.


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## tattube (Oct 24, 2010)

mblloyd said:


> -----
> 
> Sorry for being windy, but this tracks my interpretation of your circumstance.


Nothing to apologise for. I appreciate the response.

I have previously gone through all the same steps you describe, without all of the understanding you have. I just played around with CC settings til it worked.
I am actually pretty happy with Tivo CC. Some channels (or maybe it is the shows) are flawless delivering CC and the worst channels have some dropped text which does not really effect content.
I just miss the convenience of 1 button press to get to CC.

Thinking back to pre-TPXL days, with the old S2 hooked up - using Samsung CC...there were issues mostly with inaccurate text or excessive lag and some really terrible spelling mistakes....which would make me either laugh or groan.


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## johasco (Jul 12, 2010)

mblloyd said:


> -----
> 
> I pre-setup closed captioning via Settings, Displays, Close Captioning, Standard Captions (misnamed earlier as 'analog') as 'CC1,' and Digital Captions as 'None.' In my experience this is flawless.


Thank you so VERY much for this solution!! I have been trying to figure out how to get CC on HD programs on TiVo for months, and this works, as you say, flawlessly.


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## Leonard Ladin (May 16, 2014)

After hours of contact at two levels of Samsung Svc both phone and on line chat and accessing a Samsung FAQ. I have given up an will return TV to Wallmart after using for 3 days TiVo Premiere XL and Samson do not communicate on CC. Samsung's solution is absurd:connect directly with cable's coax to Ant input on TV (great having spent several hundred for a 1080 smart TV you can have the privilege of watching 480i quality without cable channels or DVR capabilities.

FAQ print out also says AV cables will work, but not HDMI or Composite. But it did not and even if it did we are back to 480i again. Naturally I did set up my box on attempts with both cables to decode CC

On a Panasonic LED HD, I have no problems with a second TiVo and CC., nor do I on a 20 year old 480i set which was about to be disposed. Can any manufacturer be stupid enough to design a 21st Century smart TV which will not access and a CC via a HDMI from a TiVo? If anyone has a solution please speak up, but both cable co. and TiVo Svc point the finger at Samsung None of the previous posts recommedations have solved it.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

The original closed captioning signal standard was designed during SD/Analog era.

HD cables can not carry the old style Closed Captioning signal. My understanding is this was never made by anyone, because there is no spec for it.. (Only SD, 480i signals carry original style CC signal)

To decode Closed Captioning from a HD broadcast, you have to enable the feature on the HD decoder.

If using a Tivo as your tuners/cable box, you turn it on, on the Tivo.

From memory, I think it's INFO->DOWN->DOWN->SELECT (->INFO)
A XL4 maybe, INFO->DOWN->DOWN->DOWN->DOWN->SELECT (->INFO)

If you use a HD cable box, you turn it on, on the cable box.
If you use a TV's built in HD tuner, you turn it on, on the TV.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Leonard Ladin said:


> TiVo Premiere XL and Samson do not communicate on CC.


Leo... tell us about your setup. You have a TiVo hooked up to a Samsung TV. How is it hooked up, what type of cable?

Bottom line, what telemark said. Activate the captions on the TiVo. Use analog only, not digital. Do NOT activate any captions on the TV. You should see captions being displayed.

What type of signal, cable or antenna? Give us some details, and we'll work thru this.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

We just started receiving BBCA HD here, and I've found the captioning to be horribly jumbled on all programs. It's fine on every other channel; just terrible on BBCA HD. I tried a suggestion made quite awhile ago in this thread about turning off digital captions, but that hasn't helped. Is anyone else seeing this?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> We just started receiving BBCA HD here, and I've found the captioning to be horribly jumbled on all programs. It's fine on every other channel; just terrible on BBCA HD. I tried a suggestion made quite awhile ago in this thread about turning off digital captions, but that hasn't helped. Is anyone else seeing this?


No, our BBCA-HD comes in fine (that's Orphan Black, right?).

I have had some weird captioning lately, but on first showings. Twice in the last week, a cable episode (once AMC, once FX) had crappy captions. In each case, on a whim, I recorded a later episode. And those later showings were either much better or perfect. I'm assuming the captioning didn't change, so there was something in the signal causing a problem.

And I'm still having the problem with delayed captions on ABC. It happens to others in Houston (I've confirmed it with other TiVo users), it happens with various TiVos (S3, S5), and it happens with DirecTV DVRs. But if you watch OTA on an antenna, it's perfect. It's driving me nuts, forcing me to watch online.:down:


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

astrohip said:


> No, our BBCA-HD comes in fine (that's Orphan Black, right?).
> 
> I have had some weird captioning lately, but on first showings. Twice in the last week, a cable episode (once AMC, once FX) had crappy captions. In each case, on a whim, I recorded a later episode. And those later showings were either much better or perfect. I'm assuming the captioning didn't change, so there was something in the signal causing a problem.
> 
> And I'm still having the problem with delayed captions on ABC. It happens to others in Houston (I've confirmed it with other TiVo users), it happens with various TiVos (S3, S5), and it happens with DirecTV DVRs. But if you watch OTA on an antenna, it's perfect. It's driving me nuts, forcing me to watch online.:down:


Yeah, that's the one -- with Orphan Black. And it makes it a bit more challenging to understand when they speak with a British accent...


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

My cable signal seems to get weak in warmer weather. It used to happen like clockwork when the sun shone on the west side of the house in the late afternoon. I often get intermittent or missing captions along with picture breakup. That forces me to record a later showing and I try to pick one that is broadcast when it's cold such as 1 am. The reception is usually much better then.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

My cable signal gets weaker as the temp goes up, too. Easy to check. I just log into my modem and check the power levels. The Upstream level goes from ~48 to ~58, and then the connection drops (dBmV). Sucks. The cable company has been to my house a few times trying to fix it.

Sorry, unrelated to cc.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Bierboy said:


> We just started receiving BBCA HD here, and I've found the captioning to be horribly jumbled on all programs. It's fine on every other channel; just terrible on BBCA HD. I tried a suggestion made quite awhile ago in this thread about turning off digital captions, but that hasn't helped. Is anyone else seeing this?


I am. Turning on "Standard Captions" only, formerly called "Analog Captions", doesn't help for all channels, and leaves me without any caption output, at all, on some channels. I am constantly toggling one on and the other off (Standard/Digital), as I view recordings from different channels. I used to be able to have both on, and never have any problems (worth complaining about).

The captions on my TV itself, are turned off. Having them on was causing me two sets of captions sometimes. I use HDMI-only, since I'm using base-Roamios.

Since 20.4.1, I get maybe one out of 10 channels with captions working correctly, often less.

The local re-broadcasts never used to give me any problems. Now they are the worst offenders.

I'm getting really tired of having to dig through several layers of menus, just because I'm watching something recorded from a different channel. I feel the settings beyond on/off should be available from the info view while watching/paused.

I didn't report this as a 20.4.1 "issue", as I'm always going through periods of the ratio of good captions to bad captions reversing. Now, it's been long enough that I should have found a good-period.

The captions are usually so mutilated/corrupted, that I'm getting very mad when I can't have them to understand people with accents. I can't understand people with accents, and can't even guess correctly most of the time. I also can't read-lips, or understand whispering (even if done directly into my ear by a live person).

If you didn't have me on your Ignore List, you'd be seeing this.

I was already looking to post that I have a reason for subbing to this thread, and post the others are not alone. That's why I'm posting now.


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## PedjaR (Jan 4, 2010)

Bierboy said:


> We just started receiving BBCA HD here, and I've found the captioning to be horribly jumbled on all programs. It's fine on every other channel; just terrible on BBCA HD. I tried a suggestion made quite awhile ago in this thread about turning off digital captions, but that hasn't helped. Is anyone else seeing this?


In my case, BBCA usually requires the opposite: turn analog captions off, keep digital on. It may be the only channel like that. Some channels require turning digital off; most work OK with both on. Wish they would fix it, or at least Tivo would make it easier to fiddle with captions.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

PedjaR said:


> In my case, BBCA usually requires the opposite: turn analog captions off, keep digital on. It may be the only channel like that. Some channels require turning digital off; most work OK with both on. Wish they would fix it, or at least Tivo would make it easier to fiddle with captions.


Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!! That fixed it for me. Something I would never have considered. Much appreciated!


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## DEC2955 (May 3, 2009)

I think that is is a shame that TIVO just does not pass along the "CC" info directly to the TV's via what ever input used to the TV!! On my system almost all "CC"s are running about 20 seconds behind what is being said on screen! Also the number of words that are miss printed on screen are close to 25%!! When the broadcast "CC"s are right on the lips as spoken and correct, and being a former DirecTV subscriber their "CC" were always right on! Why is it so hard to pass along the "CC" info?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

With modern TVs, the task of rendering the captions is the responsibility of the receiving device, in this case the TiVo. It's actually not possible to pass captions over HDMI, as I understand it (nor component). Not that I'd expect better captions from the TV, anyway -- I think the primary source of both lag and errors is that so many captions are done live. I can find good quality captions on some programs, that are in sync and mostly error-free.

The second-biggest source of errors seems to be that some channels are reencoded at the cable company level, for bandwidth purposes, and this is sometimes done without care to preserve the captions.


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