# Audio dropouts (6.3) only on OTA channels?



## LoopinFool (Feb 25, 2005)

So far from the reports I've seen here, people experiencing audio dropouts after their 6.3(a) update have only had the problem with OTA HD recordings.

If you've seen the dropout problem on satellite HD recordings (ESPNHD, Discovery HD, HDNET, etc.), please post here.

If you've seen the dropout problem on OTA HD, please post where you live (what TV market).

It sounds to me like there's a bug in the handling of OTA broadcasts in the new software. It could be an incompatibility with certain broadcast MPEG2 encoders; it could also be a PSIP problem. If it's something like this, I'm not surprised it made it into the software (with the wide-reaching beta program they must have had...  ).

Just trying to help isolate what the problem is so they can get the darned thing fixed. I want 6.3, but I sure as heck don't want the audio dropouts, and I have no way of knowing if it will happen to me.

Thanks,
- LoopinFool


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## narrod (Nov 23, 2002)

OTA Fox (41-1 in Louisville) is the biggest problem for me. It only occurs on my 6.3a machine. No dropouts on my 3.15 machine.


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## Stach (May 27, 2005)

I have only seen audio dropouts on my OTA Fox-HD station in Minneapolis using 6.3a and DD. The 2nd half of the Vikings game last week was littered with dropouts! From what I've read in the other threads, Fox stations seem to be the most consistent cause of the long audio dropouts and that's the only station that I see it on now. Thankfully I rarely watch Fox except for Sunday afternoon football....I'll see if switch to PCM fixes the problem during the next Vikings game.

Previously, with v3.x, I had frequent audio/video hiccups with the DirecTv HD channels but those are now gone with 6.3a.

I hope this helps.
Stach


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## narrod (Nov 23, 2002)

I still get OTA Fox dropouts using PCM.


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## Larry Hutchinson (Dec 7, 1999)

So far, only OTA here in PDX.

Mostly on PBS (KOPB-DT) but also on some other network but don't remember.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

I get the dropouts on any channel with dolby digital sound, OTA or satellite. Dropouts are eliminated by switching to PCM.


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## philster20032003 (Aug 22, 2005)

OTA audio dropouts on FOX (26-1) CBS (11-1) that I've noticed. Usually get 1 or 2 per recording, usually at the beginning of the program.


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## jbradway (Sep 30, 2001)

Yep I got droputs on OTA only during The Simpsons on Fox last night. I use the DD option.


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## DennisMileHi (Apr 23, 2004)

I've only seen one dropout on Fox OTA in Denver. Using DD.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

Larry Hutchinson said:


> So far, only OTA here in PDX.
> 
> Mostly on PBS (KOPB-DT) but also on some other network but don't remember.


Larry,

Is your PBS station 720p? Ours in Seattle just recently switched their HD subchannel from 1080i to 720p.

At first the reports of 6.3a dropouts seemed to have 720p in common, but recent reports of CBS stations suggest more than just 720p.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Budget_HT said:


> Larry,
> 
> Is your PBS station 720p? Ours in Seattle just recently switched their HD subchannel from 1080i to 720p.
> 
> At first the reports of 6.3a dropouts seemed to have 720p in common, but recent reports of CBS stations suggest more than just 720p.


I could be wrong, but since the OTA channels are not compressed as much as DirecTV HD channels, it's possible the HR10 is having trouble keeping up with the extra data being recorded, with audio dropouts being a potential side effect.

Depending on what's going on with your other tuner, the extra data may or may not be an issue. If, for example, your other tuner is recording or buffering SD material, the total amount of data being processed and written to the disk may be less, and you may not get dropouts. If the other tuner is also buffering OTA or D* HD, the amount of data being simultaneously processed and written will be higher, and this may result in more dropouts.

If my theory is correct, I guess the state of your hard disk may also be a factor. If your disk is highly fragmented, writes are going to take longer, slowing everything down and potentially causing a problem.

This is all theory, of course, but it could explain it, especially if 6.3 is more processor, disk or memory intensive than 3.15.

/steve


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## JoeSchueller (Jun 16, 2004)

I think that theory is legit, but it leads to more questions. 

The interesting thing to examine is whether or not the problem is isolated to digital sound output or does it also affect analog audio. 

I've always guessed that the DTiVo's simply write the bitstream off the SAT tuner (MPEG2) directly to the disk/buffer and that the audio/video is decoded downstream from the disk/buffer. This makes perfect sense, why would you decode/re-encode a signal that is already digital. I'm also guessing that it works the same with ATSC. They simply take the bitstream and write it to disk. 

You're guessing that the disk is having trouble writing the larger ATSC bitstream to disk, thus causing audio dropouts. The problem with this theory is that the ATSC includes both the digital and analog audio information, so if a recorded show has audio dropouts when played with DD and none with analog audio playback, you would assume that the all the ATSC data was written properly to the disk. This also eliminates the prospect of OTA reception being the problem. 

If the HR10 is architected like I'm guessing it is, dropouts ONLY on the digital audio output would actually be a problem with the decoding of the bitstream from the disk to the audio/video decoding system. The problem I'm having is that I can't see why a software change would do this. I would assume they have dedicated hardware doing all the MPEG audio and video decoding. That's the bread & butter of the box. I simply guessed that 6.3 was an update to the scheduling architecture that allowed for better guide performance and reduced the overhead associated with setting up a recording. I'm surprised they'd touch audio decoding (it seemed stable before). 

Perhaps someone who knows more than I can shed some light on the signal path from the OTA antenna out to the digital audio outputs on the HR10 can clear this up, because I'm confused!


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

JoeSchueller said:


> I think that theory is legit, but it leads to more questions.
> 
> The interesting thing to examine is whether or not the problem is isolated to digital sound output or does it also affect analog audio.


I believe I've read reports of dropouts with PCM and analog as well. I don't think the problem is limited to Dolby Digital.

/steve


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## JoeSchueller (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, if it is off for all audio sources, then you could assume the audio info never made it to disk and could assume that either disk problems or buffer overruns are causing the info not to make it to the disk.


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## drewcipher (May 21, 2002)

When you guys are saying audio dropouts, I have had a very intermittent issue over the last 2 years. I am still on 3.1f and get my locals via sattelite, yet occasionally on local hd channels recorded in dd, I lose main voice(center channel) All sound effects and background voices come through fine. It is not a connection problem. It always is fixed by the first commercial break, but I might miss 15 min of dialog. Anyone else ever see this?


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## drjjr (May 28, 2004)

drewcipher said:


> When you guys are saying audio dropouts, I have had a very intermittent issue over the last 2 years. I am still on 3.1f and get my locals via sattelite, yet occasionally on local hd channels recorded in dd, I lose main voice(center channel) All sound effects and background voices come through fine. It is not a connection problem. It always is fixed by the first commercial break, but I might miss 15 min of dialog. Anyone else ever see this?


I've seen it, but I always blamed it on the local affiliate not getting their HD act together. KPRC here in Houston was notorious for it and I remember an episode or 2 of NUMB3RS on CBS where the first segment (before the break) had audio problems.


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## gtadell (Oct 20, 2003)

I noticed it yesterday for the first time. Watching football on 43-1 Fox from Norfolk, VA OTA. I switched over and watched directly from my antenna feed (eliminating the HR-10) and I did not have any dropouts. There were not many but I did notice it. 

I didn't even know 6.3 had been downloaded until I noticed this issue.


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## Larry Hutchinson (Dec 7, 1999)

Budget_HT said:


> Larry,
> 
> Is your PBS station 720p?


As far as I know, they are 1080i.

Yesterday got quite a few dropouts on FOX football and one on NBC Sunday football.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

drjjr said:


> I've seen it, but I always blamed it on the local affiliate not getting their HD act together. KPRC here in Houston was notorious for it and I remember an episode or 2 of NUMB3RS on CBS where the first segment (before the break) had audio problems.


That (missing center-channel audio) is indeed almost always the local affiliate boneheads. WLS-DT in Chicago has that problem from time to time -- or at least did last season (haven't watched enough this season to notice one way or the other).


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

gtadell said:


> I noticed it yesterday for the first time. Watching football on 43-1 Fox from Norfolk, VA OTA. I switched over and watched directly from my antenna feed (eliminating the HR-10) and I did not have any dropouts. There were not many but I did notice it.
> 
> I didn't even know 6.3 had been downloaded until I noticed this issue.


I haven't noticed any dropouts on this same station with 3.1.5f.


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## EMoMoney (Oct 30, 2001)

Shortly after the update, I had noticed the dropouts on both OTA and SAT. I had experienced them on my FOX and CBS OTA and noticed them on ESPN and the NY CBS (80). I record a lot from CBS, and haven't noticed the droputs since the first week, but I am getting a lot of dropouts on the FOX OTA.


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## kcmurphy88 (Jul 5, 2003)

I have not had audio dropout at all with 6.3a. I did have occasional audio dropout with 3.1.5f, particularly with HBO-HD. Maybe it just hasn't happened yet. Mostly been watching TiVo'd OTA HD. 

HD10-250 component video and optical audio, 5.1 out to Denon AV3803.


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## RBMD (May 1, 2005)

I had the center channel dropout issue on Cold Case recorded with DD using ota source from Portland, Or. this week. The center channel would drop, a few minutes later the channel would drop to SD from HD and the center channel would reappear. Then it would switch back to HD and go through the same sequence again. It did this 5 or 6 times during the show. I'm still on 3.1f so I know my issue was not a 6.3 thing, rather a local broadcast issue. So far I've had no issues with 6.3a already installed on a 2nd HR10-250.


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## mbobak (May 23, 2004)

I've only had 6.3a for less than a week now. No problems till last night, Vanished was littered so littered w/ dropouts, I turned on CC!

So, that was the only time I noticed it, FOX-OTA.

-Mark


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## eengert (Feb 11, 2005)

I don't have 6.3a yet so I can't test this, and it's just a shot in the dark...but FOX is 720p and everyone is complaining about FOX. This theory doesn't make perfect sense and there have been a few reports of other channels (1080i channels) having dropouts as well, but I wonder if most people do what I do and leave the HR10 set to output 1080i even for FOX's 720p native resolution. And I wonder if somehow that might be contributing by making the HR10 upconvert the signal and use more CPU or something like that. Like I said, it's a longshot, but would someone mind testing that but switching the HR10 to 720p output while viewing a FOX program that is giving you dropout problems and report back here? I'm not sure how to explain the fact that the dropouts are repeatable by rewinding and replaying, but we might as well explore any angles that come to mind, eh? I don't really want 6.3+ if it's going to cause a lot of audio dropouts for me, but if I knew that for some reason it was isolated to FOX for most people, I'd be willing to let my HR10 upgrade since I only watch FOX for NFL and don't mind if some of those announcers are muted.


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## String (Aug 2, 2005)

I am on 3.1 and am getting 2 seconds dropouts on ESPNHD. The OTA dropouts maybe hardwhere where the sat dropouts are D*.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

for you that use DD do you always have your receivers turned on or does your TV process dolby?


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## Indiana627 (Jan 24, 2003)

eengert said:


> ...but I wonder if most people do what I do and leave the HR10 set to output 1080i even for FOX's 720p native resolution. And I wonder if somehow that might be contributing by making the HR10 upconvert the signal and use more CPU or something like that. Like I said, it's a longshot, but would someone mind testing that but switching the HR10 to 720p output while viewing a FOX program that is giving you dropout problems and report back here?


I had audio dropouts during Prison Break OTA HD last night on my 6.3a and I had it set to 720p not 1080i. I always change the HR10 to match the stations native res and let my TV do the converting.

Hey - a fellow Buffalonian! Did you have any dropouts during Prison Break last night? Looks like the Sabres will be in HD tomorrow night on channel 95.


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## eengert (Feb 11, 2005)

Indiana627 said:


> I had audio dropouts during Prison Break OTA HD last night on my 6.3a and I had it set to 720p not 1080i. I always change the HR10 to match the stations native res and let my TV do the converting.
> 
> Hey - a fellow Buffalonian! Did you have any dropouts during Prison Break last night? Looks like the Sabres will be in HD tomorrow night on channel 95.


I don't watch any FOX programs except baseball and football.

Yeah, they seem to put the OLN-HD feed on 95.


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## devans6151 (Oct 22, 2006)

I am getting dropouts on fox 4-1 in Dallas


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## AJ500 (Feb 22, 2002)

I just got the classic dropout with 6.3a (OTA 8-10 sec audio drop, no video loss, slight video pixelization as they re-synched). This time it was not Fox. NBC OTA Lap 289 Nascar


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## Cody21 (Jan 11, 2004)

FOX OTA 2-1 in SF Bay Area ... started right after installing 6.3a last Friday morning. Get the pixellation issue for a few seconds just as the Audio returns.


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## billyd88 (Aug 6, 2003)

Fox OTA 13-1 in Tampa. Noticed it during the World Series broadcast. Several annoying drops for about 10 secs. then it comes right back... Is there a fix for this???


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## Mr. Bill (Jan 18, 2006)

Got 6.3a Saturday night.

Get consistant audio dropouts on Fox HD ch 88 when DD is enabled. Goes away when 'DD to PCM' is enabled. I am connected via toslink.

Cannot get Fox local OTA 4.1 here due to anntenna & distance.



FWIW, I also get a less-than-1/2-sec, very low, 'static hum' burst from my Denon 3801 AVR when changing channels from one DD station to another. It did not exist before and goes away when 'DD to PCM' is enabled.


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## drjjr (May 28, 2004)

Got 6.3a Saturday morning. Finally experienced the "true" 6.3a audio dropouts while watching Game 2 last night on Houston's Fox OTA 26-1. Experienced it at least 1/2 dozen times and that's just while I was paying attention. I also had the game delayed by about 15 minutes.
These 10+ second periods of muted audio followed by a video glitch are unlike any "dropout" that I'd experience prior to having 6.3a. I'm recording Heroes and Studio 60 off of NBC OTA tonight and I'll report back. I'll also be watching Monday Night Football off of ESPNHD.
Now, it's one thing to miss 10 seconds of audio during a baseball or football game. Chances are they aren't saying anything I care about, anyway. But it's going to be annoying to miss 10 seconds of House's pithy commentary when Fox's regular programming returns.


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## Robert Spalding (Jan 12, 2001)

I got the same dropout here in Portland Oregon last night during the World Series...switching to PCM made no difference, still there. Luckily I only watch baseball (for one more week at least) and NFL on fox, none of their regular show interest me.


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## RichEM (Nov 3, 2006)

I have two HR10-250's in separate rooms. Both have the software upgrade. One experiences frequent drop-outs and the other only rarely. In both cases, the audio connection from the unit to a Pioneer receiver is optical digital. When the audio drops while watching either live TV or playback of recoded programs the missing portion can be 'recovered' by rewinding and replaying. It may take several tries, but the audio portion IS recorded! (with frequent dropouts, replays of recorded programming is a pain with all that rewinding!)

As many posters have noted, the issue seems related primarily to over-the-air HD broadcasts of local network affiliates - most notably CBS Channel 11-1 in Dallas. Admittedly, I use the TiVo's mostly to timeshift CBS programming. I DO NOT experience the problem with recorded or live sporting events on the satellite HD channels.


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## brad639 (Mar 11, 2005)

In Dallas here,

Getting fox dropouts every 5-6 minutes on my OTA 4-1

The other stations on OTA I get about one dropout a show.

I have not noticed these type of audio dropouts on Satellite programming whether it is HD or just SD

It is completely new thing since the update. Before the update I had the occasional "digital pixelation" from a hiccup in the antenna reception, but it was usually just 1 second visual skip,

These new audio problems are 6-10 second dropouts with the pixelation skip when it is over,

This is VERY annoying and definitely not worth Folders...UGH


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## TomF (Apr 13, 2001)

brad639 said:


> In Dallas here,
> 
> Getting fox dropouts every 5-6 minutes on my OTA 4-1.
> 
> ...


Not in Dallas, but this is exactly what I'm experiencing. I first noticed audio dropouts watching Fox live OTA during the playoffs. The it showed up in Fox OTA and CBS OTA recordings. Now it's also occurring on ABC OTA recordings. I've never noticed a dropout on a program recorded from the SAT.


> This is VERY annoying and definitely not worth Folders...UGH


My thoughts exactly, what's the big deal with folders? They do nothing for me.


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## thepackfan (May 21, 2003)

Unfortunately with so much of the new season recorded and unwatched the thought of reverting back to 3.1.5f is not an option. If they released this software just a couple weeks earlier I would have reverted already. I'm also in Dallas area fortunately I currently have the East feeds of everything but ABC. I use these for my season passes. Hurts though when you have to watch local Fox for a football game.


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## RichEM (Nov 3, 2006)

...a few more notes:

All four major OTA channels in Dallas are affected: 11-1 (CBS) 5-1 (NBC) 8-1 (ABC) and 4-1 (FOX),

PLAYBACK is the critical function - whether 'live' or recorded - the audio signal is resident on the disc - and rewinding will replay it in scenes where it previously dropped out

When programs recorded PRIOR to the software update are replayed AFTER the update, audio drop outs occur during playback

When the signal drops, the AV Receiver display indicates that the digital signal is no longer being transmitted by the HR10

When the signal drops, switching quickly to the analogous Satellite channel appears to demonstrate that ALL digital audio is suspended during the dropouts. (Audio from the Satellite channel does not return immediately when the channel is switched.)

When OTA audio returns, Satellite audio returns

During a dropout - TiVo sound effects are also suspended

According to my AV Receiver display, OTA channels feature Dolby DNR and Satellite channels do not. (Frankly, for me, this is the audible difference that makes the OTA channels more 'watchable' than the same programming on the Satellite.)

SO several questions:

Is there a transient signal in the digital stream during playback that is 'muting' the digital output?

Is playback audio handled differently in the new software than in previous versions?

Does anyone have the same troubles when connected to analog audio?

Is DirecTV conspiring to 'sour the milk' on the OTA channels by leaving this unresolved?

Does DirecTV have a Dolby problem (licensing or technical) that prevents broadcasting in Dolby over the Sat, and also causes or prevents remedy of the dropout problems in the OTA broadcasts?


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## RichEM (Nov 3, 2006)

A call to DirecTV Technical Support has revealed the following:

DirecTV is aware of the issues with "that model receiver."

They have been receiving calls for "the past two days"

They acknowledge that the issue revolves around the Dolby Digital function and a work around is to disable Dolby Digital (Haven't tried it yet)

DirecTV plans to resolve the issue via software download "as soon as possible"

I could elicit no confirmed timeline for resolution

Not happy news to be sure


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## RichEM (Nov 3, 2006)

Sorry for the multiple replies to my own posts. 

The "work around" suggested by DirecTV does NOT work around here! 

No combination of "Record Standard Audio" (as opposed to "Record Dolby Digital") in concert with either choice under "Digital Output" solves this problem. Drop outs continue.

I DID mention to the techie that the problem makes the units unsuitable for their intended purpose.

"As soon as possible" is not soon enough!


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

RichEM said:


> Sorry for the multiple replies to my own posts.
> 
> The "work around" suggested by DirecTV does NOT work around here!
> 
> ...


Nah, that 'workaround' doesn't work _anywhere_. In fact, the CSR at D* told me that 6.3_a_ (dl'd last month) _fixed _ the problem (which it did not), but that they are aware that it _still exists._

Er, talk outta both sides of yer mouth much? If it fixed it, how could they be aware that it still exists?


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

Rich,

There are several more threads here that have addressed this 6.3 audio dropout on OTA problem for weeks. Look around or use search for more info.


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## RichEM (Nov 3, 2006)

Thanks, Dave. 

Don't mean to reinvent the squeaky wheel. Do any of the other threads feature a solution?

Rich


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## newguy101 (Aug 1, 2004)

I am having audio dropouts on Indianapolis Fox OTA 59.1. Happens on most live and recorded primetime shows.Much worse when watching live sporting events. Had no problem until 6.3 download....Please DTV, find a solution.....

newguy


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

RichEM said:


> Thanks, Dave.
> 
> Don't mean to reinvent the squeaky wheel. Do any of the other threads feature a solution?
> 
> Rich


No. The only "solution" is to revert back to v3.1 software (not an ideal solution, obviously).

DirecTV is working with Tivo on an update to fix this introduced problem, but no firm time frame yet.


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## amoneys2k (Nov 2, 2006)

JoeSchueller said:


> The interesting thing to examine is whether or not the problem is isolated to digital sound output or does it also affect analog audio.


Well, I only use analog audio and I'm experiencing the audio dropouts since 6.3a. So far I've only seen it via OTA HD recordings on FOX and CBS. I'm in the San Diego market.


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## Les_D (Mar 6, 2002)

LoopinFool said:


> If you've seen the dropout problem on OTA HD, please post where you live (what TV market).
> 
> Thanks,
> - LoopinFool


32216

I got 6.3a 3 saturdays ago, but just sat down to catch up on some HD shows.

HOUSE on Fox has had a number of dropouts.

I haven't had time to watch HEROES on NBC or JERICHO on CBS.

I'll report back this weekend, if I get to catch up.


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## DoubleDown (Feb 17, 2004)

I notice the "7-second" audio drop on Fox OTA HD, 
However, I also notice that the audio will "skip" if I switch Tuners and/ or channels. I must then press the skip forward button to "catch up". Since this feature is Disabled on Audio only channels, I must keep changing channels until it finally works.


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## BGLeduc (Aug 26, 2003)

RichEM said:


> ...a few more notes:
> 
> PLAYBACK is the critical function - whether 'live' or recorded - the audio signal is resident on the disc - and rewinding will replay it in scenes where it previously dropped out


That has not been my experience.

Yesterday while watching one of the Fox football games, I tried exactly that...re-wound after experiencing the classic 8-10 sec drop out. It played back exactly the same way, including the brief pixelization when the audio resumed.

Having said that, I have not tried this every single time I got a drop out, so my results are clearly conclusive of nothing.

Brian


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## rod456 (Oct 23, 2006)

It is not just isolated to OTA, It happens on the East Coast NBC HD feed from D* as well on NASCAR. I have seen it on ESPN HD D* as well watching live football. Seems to be tied to live programming.


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## Les_D (Mar 6, 2002)

BGLeduc said:


> That has not been my experience.
> 
> Yesterday while watching one of the Fox football games, I tried exactly that...re-wound after experiencing the classic 8-10 sec drop out. It played back exactly the same way, including the brief pixelization when the audio resumed.
> 
> ...


This was my experiance with the recording of HOUSE on Fox.

I rewound, skipped back and paused in the middle, and it still had dead air.

The audio was dropped durring the recording and is therefore GONE.


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