# Tivo's explanation on Mini pricing



## magnus

Here is Tivo's explanation on Mini pricing. I agree with the author and still think it's a bit overpriced for what it is though. I think $150 (total price) would be more reasonable. But what do I know.... I can't even use it with my 2 tuner Premieres anyway. 

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/15/tivo-explains-extra-charge-for-the-mini/?smid=tw-share

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-media-receivers/tivo-mini/4505-6739_7-35627726-2.html


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## button1066

magnus said:


> Here is Tivo's explanation on Mini pricing. I agree with the author and still think it's a bit overpriced for what it is though. I think $150 would be more reasonable. But what do I know.... I can't even use it with my 2 tuner Premieres anyway.
> 
> http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/15/tivo-explains-extra-charge-for-the-mini/?smid=tw-share


It's a little too disingenuous for me. The TiVo Stream has no monthly fee nor do the devices running the TiVo apps. Windows Media Center Extenders have no fee (nor does WMC itself). TiVo Desktop has no fee. 'Because we need to make money' is the only logically correct answer but not correct from a marketing point of view.


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## aaronwt

Maybe they made a mistake by not charging a fee for using the Stream. Although I can't use one since I don't own any Apple products.


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## slowbiscuit

Pretty much every review comes to the same conclusion regardless of how Tivo tries to spin it - it's 'because we can'.


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## SullyND

Do people pester DirecTV and Comcast to justify their fees? AT&T and Verizon? I just don't see why anyone feels there is anything wrong with "because we can". Don't like the fee? Buy lifetime, or don't buy a Mini. Seems pretty simple.

If TiVo did not have a subscription fee, but only sold it for $250 I wonder if the griping would have been more or less.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Complaining about MSO fees is a religion.

What's wrong with "because we can" is that it's Tivo's version of an arbitrary additional outlet fee. Fans/Consumers/The media hold Tivo to a higher standard than the nickel and dimer MSO's that they very commonly have strong, negative opinions of. Many people have chosen Tivo to avoid these MSO traps, but this is them playing the same game.


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## compnurd

SullyND said:


> Do people pester DirecTV and Comcast to justify their fees? AT&T and Verizon? I just don't see why anyone feels there is anything wrong with "because we can". Don't like the fee? Buy lifetime, or don't buy a Mini. Seems pretty simple.
> 
> If TiVo did not have a subscription fee, but only sold it for $250 I wonder if the griping would have been more or less.


They do Pester comcast about the outlet fee as but I completely agree with you. They call have fees and fees and fees for DVR usage, rental HW that is 10 years old and so on


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## DaveDFW

SullyND said:


> Do people pester DirecTV and Comcast to justify their fees?


But providers like Charter, Comcast, Cox, and Time-Warner appear on lists of America's most-hated companies. Tivo is looking to the wrong role models if it wants to have happy customers.

On their current track, no one will be surprised when Tivo finally succeeds in becoming just another hated company.


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## slowbiscuit

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Complaining about MSOs fees is a religion.
> 
> What's wrong with "because we can" is that it's Tivo's version of an arbitrary additional outlet fee. Fans/Consumers/The media hold Tivo to a higher standard than nickel and dimer MSO's that they very commonly have strongly negative opinions of. Many people have chosen Tivo to avoid these MSO traps, but this is them playing the same game.


Yep, that's pretty much the way I look at it. Oh well, as with everything Tivo all I care about is the total 'lifetime' cost, no matter what games they want to play to come up with it. And $250 is too rich for me right now.

A lot of others are not liking how they break it down as can be seen from the comments in pretty much every review.


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## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> Maybe they made a mistake by not charging a fee for using the Stream. Although I can't use one since I don't own any Apple products.


I think the reason they don't charge for the Stream is because they plan on building that functionality into the next gen TiVos and they didn't want to have that functionality equated to an extra fee.

I think the main reason they charge a fee for the Mini is because they can. No matter how similar the equipment is they're not competing with Roku or Apple TV, they're competing with the Dish Hopper, DirecTV genie and similar cable offerings, all of which charge per box. As long as their pricing compares favorably to those options then they are OK.

You may not like the TiVo Mini pricing, but it's unlikely you'd be able to find another "whole home" solution that was much cheaper. (a MCE HTPC with Ceton Echo might be, but also much harder to manage)


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## magnus

Dan203 said:


> I think the reason they don't charge for the Stream is because they plan on building that functionality into the next gen TiVos and they didn't want to have that functionality equated to an extra fee.
> 
> I think the main reason they charge a fee for the Mini is because they can. No matter how similar the equipment is they're not competing with Roku or Apple TV, they're competing with the Dish Hopper, DirecTV genie and similar cable offerings, all of which charge per box. As long as their pricing compares favorably to those options then they are OK.
> 
> You may not like the TiVo Mini pricing, but it's unlikely you'd be able to find another "whole home" solution that was much cheaper. (a MCE HTPC with Ceton Echo might be, but also much harder to manage)


I think it would be a much easier pill to swallow for most... if Amazon, Netflix, Vudu, and 2 tuner support were there.


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## Dan203

Why? None of those services are available on any of those other devices I mentioned either. Except maybe the HTPC/Echo. 

Try to build a whole home DVR from any MSO that has those features and a host DVR with less then 4 tuners. It's not possible.

The problem is not what the Mini is, it's what people expected it to be. People were expecting a simple streaming box, akin to a Roku, with the ability to stream TiVo recordings. Instead they got something more akin to the extenders offered by the MSOs. Look at the price comparison thread. A TiVo+Mini is very similar to the prices you pay for a comparable MSO offering. So the only thing off here was people's expectations.


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## bradleys

Dan203 said:


> So the only thing off here was people's expectations.


Yes...

But this is a tough one. Unless you have a P4 device today or are willing to purchase a P4 at the same time, then the Mini isn't a viable product for you.

Frankly, the offering gets so complicated that I almost think TiVo has put themselves into a bad PR black hole.

- It has a service fee, only to market it competitively priced with the rest of their product line.
- It doesn't offer the same OTT services as the parent systems
- It doesn't work with 2 tuner Premiers, because it would be terribly confusing to the average user to either have all their tuners co-oped or have live TV completely unavailable on those systems.
- It doesn't have dynamic tuner allocation so you loose a tuner.

So many decisions seem to be based more on marketing and message control that technical limitations that I can see where it gets very frustrating.

I do think it is a good product and it will mature and fit nicely into the ecosystem - eventually.


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## Dan203

All of this will work out eventually. All indications point toward the next gen TiVos having a minimum of 3 tuners (probably 4), even ones that support OTA. Once those are available they will discontinue the current 2 tuner boxes and all confusion about which TiVos will or wont work with a Mini will go away. By that time they should also have dynamic tuner allocation working to avoid that part of the problem.

As for the OTT services... Netflix is the only one missing right? I assume this is some sort of business issue and not a technical one since the Mini runs the same Air apps as the main TiVo. It could be that TiVo is having some issue on the business side, with the revenue sharing or whatever, that is causing them to disable Netflix until it's sorted out. That could get resolved at any time, or not at all. We'll just have to wait and see on that.


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## bradleys

Is it rude to quote yourself? 



> I do think it is a good product and it will mature and fit nicely into the ecosystem - eventually.


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## HarperVision

I don't really get all this "it won't work with my 2 tuner blah blah blah" because when you compare it to other service providers offerings like Dish and DirecTV, you can't use the Joey without a Hopper or a C31 Genie Mini Client without the Genie Host now can you? They of course CAN access the recordings from those older gen DVRs, just like the mini! I am coming from DirecTV and I didn't hear them complain it didn't work with their older generation HR24, 23, 22, 21 DVRs. It's new technology, and it marches on.

Well, I do kind of get it, but it just seems like a pessimistic "glass half empty" type of thing. Being away from TiVo for the last few years, I can say this mini is what may bring me back because I really didn't like the whole home solution and costs of using multiple full fledged TiVos.


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## BigJimOutlaw

HarperVision said:


> I don't really get all this "it won't work with my 2 tuner blah blah blah" because when you compare it to other service providers offerings like Dish and DirecTV, you can't use the Joey without a Hopper or a C31 Genie Mini Client without the Genie Host now can you?


Tivo misdirected us 10 months ago by saying full 2-tuner support would come once the tuner allocation issue was resolved, and then never updated us on this until now. So the complaint is fair. They're at fault for screwing up those expectations.


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## SullyND

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Tivo misdirected us


Did they?


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## BigJimOutlaw

SullyND said:


> Did they?


I trust Megazone's reporting. He spoke with Jim Denney and maybe others. MZ was very clear explaining how the Mini would work and how the tuner allocation issue would impact 2-tuner units _temporarily._

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/22/tivo-stream-and-ip-stb-coming-to-msos-and-retail-this-year/


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## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Tivo misdirected us 10 months ago by saying full 2-tuner support would come once the tuner allocation issue was resolved, and then never updated us on this until now. So the complaint is fair. They're at fault for screwing up those expectations.


Really when? We may have speculated that here on the forum, but I don't think we got much information at all about the Mini or how it would work directly from TiVo.

We like to speculate a LOT here on the forums. It's not TiVo's fault if we get it wrong.


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## BigJimOutlaw

See above.


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## Dan203

I think MZ made the same assumption the rest of us did. He never claims that Jim said that it would work with a 2 tuner unit. He simply said that it would not work at launch because of the dedicated tuner and then said it "should" work once dynamic tuner allocation was available.

Like most of us MZ probably just assumed that once tuner allocation was dynamic it would no longer be an issue. However what we all forgot to consider is that TiVo has always marketed the 2 tuner unit as "watch one show while recording another". If they allowed a Mini to steal a tuner from a 2 tuner box, even dynamically, then that use case dissolves. There is no elegant way for a Mini to be able to pair with a 2 tuner unit without it diminishing the user experience in some way. Either the Mini wont be able to do live TV at all or the host unit will lose the ability to "watch one show while recording another" while the Mini is in use. Neither option is ideal, and it makes sense that TiVo would decide neither was worth supporting.


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## magnus

Real or imagined it does not matter. The simple fact is that the 2 tuner is technically capable of streaming to the Mini and so it should be supported. I wonder how many returns they will get of 4 tuner boxes just so someone can initially pair to a Mini.


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## sbiller

magnus said:


> Real or imagined it does not matter. The simple fact is that the 2 tuner is technically capable of streaming to the Mini and so it should be supported. I wonder how many returns they will get of 4 tuner boxes just so someone can initially pair to a Mini.


The real solution here is to "unofficially support" it. They would not provide customer support for issues related to 2-tuners but the TCFers would have little to complain about.


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## compnurd

magnus said:


> Real or imagined it does not matter. The simple fact is that the 2 tuner is technically capable of streaming to the Mini and so it should be supported. I wonder how many returns they will get of 4 tuner boxes just so someone can initially pair to a Mini.


They will probably get very little. With the exception of the few idiots who abuse the system


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## magnus

compnurd said:


> They will probably get very little. With the exception of the few idiots who abuse the system


How are they abusing the system exactly? I don't really care for the idea but Tivo pretty much did it to themselves. They don't currently have a 4 tuner OTA box and they aren't supporting the 2 tuner boxes that do.

Like I said, I don't care to go to all the trouble but I certainly understand why some might.


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## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> Why? None of those services are available on any of those other devices I mentioned either. Except maybe the HTPC/Echo.


Yeah, and then you lose VOD (at least on the cable cos that support it on TiVo).



sbiller said:


> The real solution here is to "unofficially support" it. They would not provide customer support for issues related to 2-tuners but the TCFers would have little to complain about.


Yup.



compnurd said:


> They will probably get very little. With the exception of the few idiots who abuse the system


It's not the users' fault that TiVo made this boneheaded decision.


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## Dan203

magnus said:


> Real or imagined it does not matter. The simple fact is that the 2 tuner is technically capable of streaming to the Mini and so it should be supported. I wonder how many returns they will get of 4 tuner boxes just so someone can initially pair to a Mini.


You're confusing the ability to stream from with the ability to act as a host. The Mini can stream from a 2 tuner box just fine. However the 2 tuner box is not properly equipped to act as a Mini host. Even with dynamic tuner allocation it still wont work as expected.

I seriously doubt many people will attempt the 4 tuner buy/return tick just to get the Mini working with a 2 tuner box. You'd be much better off just selling the 2 tuner and buying a 4 tuner. The upgrade would only cost you ~$200 and you'd gain a tuner in the process and possibly save some money by returning a cable box at the secondary location.

Now if you are an OTA user then you'll just have to wait. TiVo has a new OTA capable unit coming. But until then you have no options that involve the Mini.


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## Dan203

sbiller said:


> The real solution here is to "unofficially support" it. They would not provide customer support for issues related to 2-tuners but the TCFers would have little to complain about.


That would be cool. I wonder is there is some backdoor or way to spoof a 2 tuner into presenting itself to the Mini as a host?


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## magnus

Dan203 said:


> You're confusing the ability to stream from with the ability to act as a host. The Mini can stream from a 2 tuner box just fine. However the 2 tuner box is not properly equipped to act as a Mini host. Even with dynamic tuner allocation it still wont work as expected.
> 
> I seriously doubt many people will attempt the 4 tuner buy/return tick just to get the Mini working with a 2 tuner box. You'd be much better off just selling the 2 tuner and buying a 4 tuner. The upgrade would only cost you ~$200 and you'd gain a tuner in the process and possibly save some money by returning a cable box at the secondary location.
> 
> Now if you are an OTA user then you'll just have to wait. TiVo has a new OTA capable unit coming. But until then you have no options that involve the Mini.


I think you underestimate the determined and no .... I'm not confused. They created the wrong product. It's as simple as that. They should either make it work with 2 tuner boxes or create an app for Roku/Apple TV that works with the Stream.

They ought to tell folks what the plan is for OTA otherwise they may be determined enough to do the swap.


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## Dan203

magnus said:


> I think you underestimate the determined


I think you over estimate the number of "determined" TiVo users. I'm betting the number of people that attempt this is in the 100s, if that.



magnus said:


> They created the wrong product.


Perhaps from your perspective. But the vast majority of TiVo users are cable subscribers, so for them there is a simple upgrade option. And TiVo's main target for this is not existing customers looking for a cheap upgrade anyway. They're trying to attract new customers to the TiVo platform by offering a whole home solution comparable to their competitors. It's not quite there yet, but it's a first step in the right direction.


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## SullyND

magnus said:


> They ought to tell folks what the plan is for OTA otherwise they may be determined enough to do the swap.


It wouldn't seem too difficult for TiVo to have the Mini query the account to see if there is a 4 tuner box on the account. (Say once every 30 days)


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## magnus

SullyND said:


> It wouldn't seem too difficult for TiVo to have the Mini query the account to see if there is a 4 tuner box on the account. (Say once every 30 days)


That would require a software update... have you seen how long it takes Tivo to do something?


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## lessd

magnus said:


> I think you underestimate the determined and no .... I'm not confused. They created the wrong product. It's as simple as that. They should either make it work with 2 tuner boxes or create an app for Roku/Apple TV that works with the Stream.
> 
> They ought to tell folks what the plan is for OTA otherwise they may be determined enough to do the swap.


TiVo created and are selling the product TiVo wanted, you act as if TiVo made a promise that they did not keep. The Mini is a $250 product with limitations, priced so that retailers can't get much mark up at $99, TiVo gets the rest of the money without any sharing with the retailers, OH! and if you don't want to put out the extra $150, just pay $6 /month to TiVo. People who purchased a TP with 2 tuners were never promised by TiVo that the Mini would work with this unit, so what the beef, don't like the Mini for any reason don't purchase it. People vote with their money, TiVo knows this and makes their business plans knowing this, if TiVo makes a bad business plan, only TiVo and their stockholders will be the ones to suffer.


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## johnner1999

so would we still ***** if TiVo charged a whole home DVR fee instead of charging for each Mini? 

Trust me I hate being charged a fee to watch my own content - but TiVo is supplying me with a service (not having to rent an extra cable card, which not only saves me money but one less of problem to worry about as well) and not having to buy another tivo to go in my bedroom. 

so the $7 a month isnt out of line, I think Dish charges me that same amount for my Joey (which is the same as the mini) only thing is that they didnt charge me for Joey upfront. That is the only rub I see. 

Now do I buy a standard 4 or an XL4 hmmmmm


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## atmuscarella

Been away for a few days so a little late to this thread but I think it still needs my 2cents .

The Mini is part of TiVo's digital cable whole home DVR system, which is currently based around TiVo's 4 tuner digital cable only DVRs. If you do not want a TiVo digital cable only whole home DVR system then the Mini isn't designed for you and you should move on. 

Regarding the price ($250 or $100+$6/mo) I think if you just look at the Mini as a stand alone device (which it is not) the price is high. The only way to really determine if the price is actually acceptable or not is to look at the price of TiVo's whole home digital cable system. Because I really believe value is a personal decision based on someone's personal circumstances I really don't have much of an opinion on if TiVo's whole home DVR system is a good value or not. 

Just for the record I am an OTA air only user with an Android tablet so none of TiVo's recent devices (4 tuner DVRs, Stream, & Mini) are designed for me. But honestly with the cost of used Series 3 DVRs with lifetime so low and the deals we have had on the Premiere with lifetime I see no reason why an OTA person would chose a Mini over another DVR anyway. I do understand the desire of an OTA user to want a $100 solution for a secondary or little used TVs but I see no reason to expect TiVo to provide it.


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## magnus

atmuscarella said:


> I do understand the desire of an OTA user to want a $100 solution for a secondary or little used TVs but I see no reason to expect TiVo to provide it.


All Tivo has to do is provide half of it. They provide the mechanism to get it to the Roku and then us OTA folks are happy.


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## sbiller

atmuscarella said:


> Just for the record I am an OTA air only user with an Android tablet so none of TiVo's recent devices (4 tuner DVRs, Stream, & Mini) are designed for me. But honestly with the cost of used Series 3 DVRs with lifetime so low and the deals we have had on the Premiere with lifetime I see no reason why an OTA person would chose a Mini over another DVR anyway. I do understand the desire of an OTA user to want a $100 solution for a secondary or little used TVs but I see no reason to expect TiVo to provide it.


Based on TiVo's recent FCC waiver filing that indicates a future model with OTA support, I do think that TiVo see's the business case for continued support of OTA (and Android) users. I expect we will see support for both later this year.


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## magnus

atmuscarella said:


> I see no reason why an OTA person would chose a Mini over another DVR anyway.



Space saver -hide behind TV
Would not use quite as much power
No moving parts - so should run longer (no replacing HD)
Fee is a little less than a full Tivo

Why you wouldn't want to.

Won't work with current OTA Tivos
No support for Netflix and Amazon
Does not offer same flexibility as Roku - so you can't replace and have 1 box
High fee for what this product is


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## teklock

magnus said:


> They should either make it work with 2 tuner boxes or create an app for Roku/Apple TV that works with the Stream.
> 
> They ought to tell folks what the plan is for OTA otherwise they may be determined enough to do the swap.


But that makes them no money. It's as simple as that. I don't understand why people are still complaining about a $250 device that has no competition.

Either get one or don't. I have four!


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## lessd

teklock said:


> But that makes them no money. It's as simple as that. I don't understand why people are still complaining about a $250 device that has no competition.
> 
> Either get one or don't. I have four!


You are correct, if TiVo had priced the unit at $250 flat there would almost no complaining about the price, if it did what you wanted and could afford the $250 you would purchase, but TiVo gave people the option of a monthly plan so the first month cost was $5.95 not $150, you saved $144 in that first month. People think that $5.95 is for some type of service, it is not, it somewhat like a car lease, saving you an upfront cost.


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## atmuscarella

lessd said:


> You are correct, if TiVo had priced the unit at $250 flat there would almost no complaining about the price, if it did what you wanted and could afford the $250 you would purchase, but TiVo gave people the option of a monthly plan so the first month cost was $5.95 not $150, you saved $144 in that first month. People think that $5.95 is for some type of service, it is not, it somewhat like a car lease, saving you an upfront cost.


Unless someone doesn't know about the lifetime option when I hear people complaining about service fees - I hear a person who is just complaining about the price and doesn't want to do it directly, which is fine if someone thinks something cost to much it is just as valid opinion as the person who doesn't think it costs to much.


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## Austin Bike

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Tivo misdirected us 10 months ago by saying full 2-tuner support would come once the tuner allocation issue was resolved, and then never updated us on this until now. So the complaint is fair. They're at fault for screwing up those expectations.


Having 20+ years of marketing for technology companies, I doing point to this as misleading people on purpose, I view it as "yeah, we thought we could do that and it turned out that we couldn't." It is probably a case of them finding out that they could not deliver on what they thought.

As for their pricing, the real issue in my mind is that the mini competes with buying additional tivos, so when they look at how to price it they have to take into consideration the cannibalization of their own product lines. I am sure there were plenty of meetings where they looked at revenue models and realized that some portion of the revenue stream would be interrupted with a mini that did not have a revenue annuity attached to it.

You have to look at primary competition - cable operator delivered DVR options - if you want to see how they priced. Sure, roku, apple tv, htpc, etc have different pricing models, but they do not have the market share/momentum to be considered.

Without knowing the actual #'s, I would think that 80%+ of the competitive pressure in the market is cable DVRs, so you set your pricing model to go against that.


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## magnus

But the whole point is that they could do it but they don't want to because it would not be a good experience for the 2 tuner box.


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## magnus

teklock said:


> But that makes them no money. It's as simple as that. I don't understand why people are still complaining about a $250 device that has no competition.
> 
> Either get one or don't. I have four!


Because for $250 the value proposition is just not there yet. When it is and I can have 4 tuner OTA box then I might have a different opinion.


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## Bigg

If TiVo was smart, they would have taken on Roku a few years ago, opened up app development, and then slid their way into homes that way, with an upgrade available to work with their DVRs as an extender. But instead they have very, very slooooooowly gone top-down.


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## atmuscarella

Bigg said:


> If TiVo was smart, they would have taken on Roku a few years ago, opened up app development, and then slid their way into homes that way, with an upgrade available to work with their DVRs as an extender. But instead they have very, very slooooooowly gone top-down.


There are lots of competitors in the IP/Internet streaming game. I have currently have 7 different devices with some IP/Internet streaming features attached to my home theater setup.

Roku (have 2 of them)
Google TV via Logitech Revue
A netgear steaming device
A western digital steaming device
3 HD TIVos
A Panasonic blu-ray player
A HTPC
For IP/Internet content my Premiere gets used the most and then the HTPC.

We have no way of knowing if it would have made any financial sense for TiVo to have put out a limited function device like a Roku or not, but I certainly think it is more important for TiVo to focus on their core business.

Frankly we are at a point where so many new devices have IP/Internet streaming added in I think most people will not see a need for a stand alone device like a Roku (or any of the others that I have).


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## teklock

atmuscarella said:


> Frankly we are at a point where so many new devices have IP/Internet streaming added in I think most people will not see a need for a stand alone device like a Roku (or any of the others that I have).


I cannot agree with you more. Pretty much every new TV has all these features now.

I want TiVo to focus on what they do, DVR's.


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## steve614

Austin Bike said:


> Having 20+ years of marketing for technology companies, I doing point to this as misleading people on purpose, I view it as "yeah, we thought we could do that and it turned out that we couldn't." It is probably a case of them finding out that they could not deliver on what they thought.


This is status quo for TiVo. Whatever happened to making the S3 OLED work with just one cable card?


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## magnus

steve614 said:


> This is status quo for TiVo. Whatever happened to making the S3 OLED work with just one cable card?


The same thing that happened with them making the Mini work with a 2 tuner Premiere.


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## Bigg

atmuscarella said:


> There are lots of competitors in the IP/Internet streaming game. I have currently have 7 different devices with some IP/Internet streaming features attached to my home theater setup.
> 
> Roku (have 2 of them)
> Google TV via Logitech Revue
> A netgear steaming device
> A western digital steaming device
> 3 HD TIVos
> A Panasonic blu-ray player
> A HTPC
> For IP/Internet content my Premiere gets used the most and then the HTPC.
> 
> We have no way of knowing if it would have made any financial sense for TiVo to have put out a limited function device like a Roku or not, but I certainly think it is more important for TiVo to focus on their core business.
> 
> Frankly we are at a point where so many new devices have IP/Internet streaming added in I think most people will not see a need for a stand alone device like a Roku (or any of the others that I have).


I think it would have been a good way for TiVo to put themselves out there and get more people onto their system to upsell DVRs to. However, they would have had to have gotten on their game and updated them quickly, not like their DVRs where there have been features that have taken years to get implemented. If TiVo had any decently competition in the DVR market, they would move an order of magnitude faster than they do.

Yeah, I think Roku's model is dying. It doesn't do anything unique. Apple TV is unique as it works with iTunes and Airplay. XBOX is unique as it plays XBOX games, but Roku doesn't do anything else that other boxes don't. It's only saving grace might be how horrible some of the BD players are at streaming stuff.

I have:

BD Player
Smart TV
Roku
Apple TV
XBOX
Wii
TiVo Premiere
HTPC

The Wii U is coming soon, and I can also connect laptops in via a front HDMI port.


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## nebulink

Dan203 said:


> And TiVo's main target for this is not existing customers looking for a cheap upgrade anyway. They're trying to attract new customers to the TiVo platform by offering a whole home solution comparable to their competitors. It's not quite there yet, but it's a first step in the right direction.


This was me. I was totally going to juump back on the Tivo Wagon once the Mini was going to be released. However, I put the breaks on once I heard dynamic tuner alocation, Netflix and Amazon Prime wasn't supported.

I had Tivo about 10yrs ago and it was great but I wanted more so I went the HTPC route. I have been very happy with the HTPC option but would rather not support a PC anymore.


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## bmgoodman

magnus said:


> The same thing that happened with them making the Mini work with a 2 tuner Premiere.


Let's make this a little game:

Probably the same thing that happened with
*completing the HD menus, or 
*supporting KidZone in the HD menus, or 
*[enter your favorite half-baked Tivo "feature"]


----------



## farmermac

bmgoodman said:


> Let's make this a little game:
> 
> Probably the same thing that happened with
> *completing the HD menus, or
> *supporting KidZone in the HD menus, or
> *[enter your favorite half-baked Tivo "feature"]


Hehe. TiVo is like that friend that's really nice but you can't help give him shi* for his obvious shortcomings. You still love him but at one point you realize he's got obvious flaws that will never get fixed


----------



## shwru980r

The mini seems to be modeled after a largely unsuccessful product. Most of the WMC extenders have been discontinued. 

All that are left are the Xbox 360 and the Ceton Echo and the xbox 360's primary function isn't as an extender.

Tivo is clearly trying to minimize customers replacing a two tuner premiere with a mini.


----------



## jmpage2

shwru980r said:


> The mini seems to be modeled after a largely unsuccessful product. Most of the WMC extenders have been discontinued.
> 
> All that are left are the Xbox 360 and the Ceton Echo and the xbox 360's primary function isn't as an extender.
> 
> Tivo is clearly trying to minimize customers replacing a two tuner premiere with a mini.


TiVo Mini is modeled after the many many MSO "whole home" boxes. Those are current products that are selling well for the MSOs.


----------



## Loach

jmpage2 said:


> TiVo Mini is modeled after the many many MSO "whole home" boxes. Those are current products that are selling well for the MSOs.


Not to mention the satellite Joey and Genie extenders.


----------



## sbiller

jmpage2 said:


> TiVo Mini is modeled after the many many MSO "whole home" boxes. Those are current products that are selling well for the MSOs.


Agreed. TiVo has sold the TiVo Preview to cable MSOs since November 2011. Their operator partners like the Mini better because it has MoCA built-in and eliminates a $50 CableCARD from the deployment per box.

Just about every provider is moving to an IP distribution model like the Mini although currently the only IP solutions I'm aware of are Arris, DirecTV and Dish.


----------



## atmuscarella

I think people need to stop trying to look at the Mini as a stand alone product, which it is not. Looking at it that way completely missing what TiVo is selling. Which is a whole home digital cable DVR system. I think that is what TiVo is trying to compete against. 

My personal opinion is that TiVo is ahead of other whole home digital cable DVR systems but really needs to improve the software and get new DVR hardware out the door to stay there.


----------



## Arcady

I'm still happy with my 6.95 a month Premiere. (or Premier if you can't actually read the name on the box of the thing)

The mini is a useless turd to me at this point.


----------



## jmpage2

Arcady said:


> I'm still happy with my 6.95 a month Premiere. (or Premier if you can't actually read the name on the box of the thing)
> 
> The mini is a useless turd to me at this point.


You are happy because you have a Premiere at a price that is not available for new subscribers.

The Mini is not necessarily aimed at you. However it's worth pointing out that;

1. The Mini is a LOT faster than your Premiere.
2. The Mini uses less than 20% of the electricity of a Premiere.
3. Mini has no moving parts to fail.
4. Mini requires no cable card rentals, extra outlet charges, etc.

It's for THOSE reasons that some of us with 4 tuner TiVos have bought one or more Minis.


----------



## Arcady

I have a 4 tuner box.

I don't want a 3 tuner box.

In fact, I have a 6 tuner box if I combine the Elite and the cheapass Premiere.

The financials make no sense for this Mini nonsense.

As for electricity, I have things like air conditioners and microwaves that use 1200 times the power. Who cares?

Cable Cards are $2. Who cares?

If the hard drive fails, I can buy a 2TB for $79. Who cares?


----------



## moyekj

I have a 4 tuner box that is still a 4 tuner box even with a Mini attached to it as I don't dedicate any tuners to the Mini. The GUI speed on the 4 tuner box is just pitiful compared to the speed of the Mini, so much so that I mostly use the Mini as my main front end to the Elite. And yes the speed of My Elite is so lousy I was happy to fork out $250 bucks to improve on it tremendously. Personally I can't wait until next 4+ tuner TiVo model with better processor is available so I can get rid of my sluggish Elite (well I probably won't get rid of it but will relegate it permanently to headless recording). The responsiveness of the Mini is not something to be overlooked by those who have never tried it and hopefully is a preview of coming attractions for new TiVo DVR boxes.


----------



## Arcady

I don't get people who complain about the interface speed. I use it for 20 seconds to pick a show to watch. It's not like it makes the actual show play slowly. Did you ever use a CD player in 1984? Wow, CD should have failed as a format! Give me a break.


----------



## jmpage2

Arcady said:


> I have a 4 tuner box.
> 
> I don't want a 3 tuner box.
> 
> In fact, I have a 6 tuner box if I combine the Elite and the cheapass Premiere.
> 
> The financials make no sense for this Mini nonsense.
> 
> As for electricity, I have things like air conditioners and microwaves that use 1200 times the power. Who cares?
> 
> Cable Cards are $2. Who cares?
> 
> If the hard drive fails, I can buy a 2TB for $79. Who cares?


The financials make plenty of sense. Because *you* don't care about your electric bill and because *you* don't have to pay the $9 outlet fee that many have to pay per cable card and because *you* don't care about the interface speed the Mini does not make sense to you. The problem is you can't see things from anyone else's point of view. For someone paying .25 per kwh for electricity and paying $9 a month for a CC + outlet charge the Mini makes financial sense. You are hung up about how many tuners you have but the reality is many of us can "get by" with three tuners until dynamic tuner allocation is delivered.


----------



## Arcady

*You* can highlight *you* all *you* want, but $250 for a box that saves me negative money is stupid. It's not my fault you have a cable company that cheats and charges fake outlet charges.


----------



## atmuscarella

Arcady said:


> I'm still happy with my 6.95 a month Premiere. (or Premier if you can't actually read the name on the box of the thing)
> 
> The mini is a useless turd to me at this point.





Arcady said:


> *You* can highlight *you* all *you* want, but $250 for a box that saves me negative money is stupid. It's not my fault you have a cable company that cheats and charges fake outlet charges.


And your point is what? That not ever product that TiVo makes works or makes sense for you? Welcome to the club. All of the products that TiVo has released since the Premiere don't work for me - so what? It certainly doesn't mean that all of those products are worthless for everyone, it just means they are not for me.


----------



## aaronwt

I use my Minis more than my Elites. But that is because I have a Mini in my main setup, next to an Elite, that I use for most of my TV watching. Instead of using the Elite.
Once a Six tuner box comes out, I'll be using the six tuner box for my main viewing.


----------



## jmpage2

Arcady said:


> *You* can highlight *you* all *you* want, but $250 for a box that saves me negative money is stupid. It's not my fault you have a cable company that cheats and charges fake outlet charges.


And it's not my fault that you insist on wasting everyone's time thread-crapping all over the place in the TiVo Mini forum when you clearly have zero interest in the thing.


----------



## Bigg

atmuscarella said:


> I think people need to stop trying to look at the Mini as a stand alone product, which it is not. Looking at it that way completely missing what TiVo is selling. Which is a whole home digital cable DVR system. I think that is what TiVo is trying to compete against.
> 
> My personal opinion is that TiVo is ahead of other whole home digital cable DVR systems but really needs to improve the software and get new DVR hardware out the door to stay there.


Exactly. TiVo was BEHIND in that manner up until now, since Comcast and the others had it. And DirecTV and whatnot.

They definitely need to work on the software and software features, as I think we do (and should) hold them to a higher standard than what the MSO itself offers.

The Mini is the piece of the puzzle that TiVo was missing. The Premiere didn't scale well at $650/TV, whereas the Mini at $250/TV scales upwards a lot better.



Arcady said:


> I have a 4 tuner box.
> 
> I don't want a 3 tuner box.
> 
> In fact, I have a 6 tuner box if I combine the Elite and the cheapass Premiere.
> 
> The financials make no sense for this Mini nonsense.
> 
> As for electricity, I have things like air conditioners and microwaves that use 1200 times the power. Who cares?
> 
> Cable Cards are $2. Who cares?
> 
> If the hard drive fails, I can buy a 2TB for $79. Who cares?


You can set the Mini up to not have Live TV, and DTA is coming.

1 watt = $1/yr (roughly, calculated here in the Northeast, YMMV), so there is a little savings there.

Not everyone is that lucky on CableCards. On Comcast they are around $7/card, unless they are in the same device.

The Mini is not intended to replace a Premiere, and it's not intended to be mutually exclusive. If you have two big TV's, maybe you'd want an XL4 and a Premiere, and a Mini for a kitchen, basement, garage, laundry room, wherever.


----------



## shwru980r

jmpage2 said:


> TiVo Mini is modeled after the many many MSO "whole home" boxes. Those are current products that are selling well for the MSOs.


Customers don't own MSO equipment. The MSO can bundle their whole home systems at a reduced rate or free initially to attract customers.

I think the mini is more closely modeled after the WMC extenders or Moxi mate, and most of those were discontinued.


----------



## shwru980r

Loach said:


> Not to mention the satellite Joey and Genie extenders.


Yes, but cable and satellite companies are already selling an expensive service and can use the DVR as an inital loss leader and start charging at a later date once the customer is hooked.


----------



## sbiller

shwru980r said:


> Customers don't own MSO equipment. The MSO can bundle their whole home systems at a reduced rate or free initially to attract customers.
> 
> I think the mini is more closely modeled after the WMC extenders or Moxi mate, and most of those were discontinued.


Are you forgetting that the Mini is distributed via TiVo's MSO partners including Suddenlink, GCI, Grande, Evolution Digital, ...?

Retail is secondary from a business model perspective.


----------



## shwru980r

sbiller said:


> Are you forgetting that the Mini is distributed via TiVo's MSO partners including Suddenlink, GCI, Grande, Evolution Digital, ...?
> 
> Retail is secondary from a business model perspective.


I thought this thread was discussing the retail version of the mini.


----------



## lessd

shwru980r said:


> I thought this thread was discussing the retail version of the mini.


It started that way but ....


----------



## Loach

shwru980r said:


> Yes, but cable and satellite companies are already selling an expensive service and can use the DVR as an inital loss leader and start charging at a later date once the customer is hooked.


Cox sure as hell isn't using whole home DVR with extenders as a "loss leader" in my market.


----------



## Bigg

Loach said:


> Cox sure as hell isn't using whole home DVR with extenders as a "loss leader" in my market.


Yeah, Comcast is making a pretty penny at $17/mo for the DVR, $10/mo for each additional box, and a $3 whole home DVR fee. They're probably making back the cost of the equipment is 2 years, and they have the stuff out there for a lot longer than that.


----------



## shwru980r

Bigg said:


> Yeah, Comcast is making a pretty penny at $17/mo for the DVR, $10/mo for each additional box, and a $3 whole home DVR fee. They're probably making back the cost of the equipment is 2 years, and they have the stuff out there for a lot longer than that.


I think the offers usually go to new customers or existing internet only customers. Maybe you could get a better deal if you changed providers.


----------



## Bigg

shwru980r said:


> I think the offers usually go to new customers or existing internet only customers. Maybe you could get a better deal if you changed providers.


I'm on a new sub deal with Comcast now. $94 for Blast! and every cable channel plus HBO, I own my TiVo and D3 modem.


----------



## JoeTaxpayer

I read the Times article. The 4 tuner TiVo has the same monthly fee or lifetime fee as the 2 tuner models. Correct? 
A new buyer would quickly choose the 4 tuner/mini combo and TiVo would lose revenue, as this combination cannibalizes their own sales. 
At a flat $99/no fee, current users would have a high incentive to get rid of one box carrying the monthly fee. $13/mo plus the $8 outlet fee many cable co's provide is $21. This is a one year break even to get rid of a two tuner second tivo with the Mini sold for $250 including service. (I haven't checked what the power draw is on the regular TiVo, but cost is about $1.50 per year-watt, so for the budget conscious, I see how this adds up)

I agree, it would have been a different PR issue to just price it at $250, period. My network is mixed, wired/wireless, and my TiVos are all lifetime service, so my numbers are a bit different. A sale of a LT Tivo would be part of the equation.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Yes, the service fee is the same whether you get a 2 or 4-tuner Tivo.


----------



## Arcady

Or a 6-tuner TiVo.


----------



## JoeTaxpayer

Arcady said:


> Or a 6-tuner TiVo.





slowbiscuit said:


> Yes, the service fee is the same whether you get a 2 or 4-tuner Tivo.


Understood. I was trying to make an objective point, that somewhere in the math, TiVo competes with itself. The Mini sale taking away from a potential full TiVo sale.


----------



## lessd

JoeTaxpayer said:


> Understood. I was trying to make an objective point, that somewhere in the math, TiVo competes with itself. The Mini sale taking away from a potential full TiVo sale.


Or maybe an additional sale because the Mini is less in cost, both in cable card cost, and hardware/service cost, than a unneeded full DVR.


----------



## Bigg

JoeTaxpayer said:


> I read the Times article. The 4 tuner TiVo has the same monthly fee or lifetime fee as the 2 tuner models. Correct?
> A new buyer would quickly choose the 4 tuner/mini combo and TiVo would lose revenue, as this combination cannibalizes their own sales.
> At a flat $99/no fee, current users would have a high incentive to get rid of one box carrying the monthly fee. $13/mo plus the $8 outlet fee many cable co's provide is $21. This is a one year break even to get rid of a two tuner second tivo with the Mini sold for $250 including service. (I haven't checked what the power draw is on the regular TiVo, but cost is about $1.50 per year-watt, so for the budget conscious, I see how this adds up)
> 
> I agree, it would have been a different PR issue to just price it at $250, period. My network is mixed, wired/wireless, and my TiVos are all lifetime service, so my numbers are a bit different. A sale of a LT Tivo would be part of the equation.


Yup. LT is always the way to go, but dumb consumers keep buying monthly...


----------



## JoeTaxpayer

lessd said:


> Or maybe an additional sale because the Mini is less in cost, both in cable card cost, and hardware/service cost, than a unneeded full DVR.


Sure. The 4 tuner owner who has a second TV has options, nothing, mini, full tivo, apple TV etc.

It's not all or none. This was Apple's issue with an iPad mini. Would that sale take from a Kindle/Nook/other, or from a full iPad? Tough to know.

I happen to have more TiVos than I need right now, but if I were starting over, a 4 tuner plus Mini is pretty appealing.


----------



## Bigg

But as Steve Jobs said, you can't be afraid of cannibalizing your own business, as someone else will.


----------



## lessd

Bigg said:


> But as Steve Jobs said, you can't be afraid of cannibalizing your own business, as someone else will.


+1


----------



## Trekboy

Bigg said:


> But as Steve Jobs said, you can't be afraid of cannibalizing your own business, as someone else will.


+2


----------



## innocentfreak

Bigg said:


> Yup. LT is always the way to go, but dumb consumers keep buying monthly...


I wouldn't call them dumb since they allow TiVo to continue to offer lifetime. I imagine TiVo would have to make changes if everyone opted for lifetime.


----------



## moyekj

innocentfreak said:


> I wouldn't call them dumb since they allow TiVo to continue to offer lifetime. I imagine TiVo would have to make changes if everyone opted for lifetime.


 Exactly! I'm also grateful that many people still choose to watch live TV and commercials to subsidize those that don't want to. I was at dentist the other day and subjected to NBC live morning show and it must have been 60% commercials. I told them to turn it off after 10 minutes of that nonsense.


----------



## Bigg

innocentfreak said:


> I wouldn't call them dumb since they allow TiVo to continue to offer lifetime. I imagine TiVo would have to make changes if everyone opted for lifetime.


They would just amortize over 4 years, and they'd be fine. They would take a bit of a hit, but their business wouldn't fundamentally fall apart.



moyekj said:


> Exactly! I'm also grateful that many people still choose to watch live TV and commercials to subsidize those that don't want to. I was at dentist the other day and subjected to NBC live morning show and it must have been 60% commercials. I told them to turn it off after 10 minutes of that nonsense.


It would change some things, but the big drivers, at least off the big four networks, are cable carriage fees, so I'm not sure that we'd lose a lot if no one watched commercials. We may be in for some big changes if any cable or satellite carriers are able to break out of the packages and go a-la-carte. I think if that happened on a wide scale, we would rapidly see an implosion of hundreds of cable channels, and the quality of the remaining few (both the bitrate of the video, and the quality of the actual content) go way up.


----------



## mntvjunkie

Bigg said:


> They would just amortize over 4 years, and they'd be fine. They would take a bit of a hit, but their business wouldn't fundamentally fall apart.
> 
> It would change some things, but the big drivers, at least off the big four networks, are cable carriage fees, so I'm not sure that we'd lose a lot if no one watched commercials. We may be in for some big changes if any cable or satellite carriers are able to break out of the packages and go a-la-carte. I think if that happened on a wide scale, we would rapidly see an implosion of hundreds of cable channels, and the quality of the remaining few (both the bitrate of the video, and the quality of the actual content) go way up.


They would take a hit on anyone who has the unit for more than 4 years, which is actually quite common. I've had my lifetime Tivo for exactly 4 years, so starting this month I'm actually costing Tivo money to keep my service going.

As to your second point, you couldn't be more wrong. For primetime network TV, there are two sources of income. Affiliation Fees and advertising. AFFILIATES are allowed to, and often encouraged, to charge carriage fees, but this can usually only be recouped through affiliate fees (and aren't even close to enough to offset programming costs or the loss of advertising).

With cable networks, the model is set up a bit different, but the loss of advertising would be a significant blow to them as well. Assuming a cable network charges 25 cents per subscriber, and also assuming the network is available in 100 million homes, income from subscriber fees is only 25 million a month. It's significant, but 25 million a month doesn't go very far in licensing content, paying salaries, creating original content, paying utilities, office space, transponder time, equipment, etc.

To move to a completely ad free model, they'd have to start charging $5-10 per month in subscriber fees, which would translate to $10-15 by the time the cost is passed down to the consumer. This model can already be seen through HBO, Showtime, etc. For broadcast TV, these rates would have to be even higher, because costs to produce are also much higher.

Local TV stations actually make most of their money with local newscasts, because they get to sell 100% of the ad inventory.


----------



## mr_smits

mntvjunkie said:


> I've had my lifetime Tivo for exactly 4 years, so starting this month I'm actually costing Tivo money to keep my service going.


You aren't costing Tivo any money. You are just now seeing a return on your investment by paying for lifetime vs paying monthly.


----------



## Bigg

mntvjunkie said:


> They would take a hit on anyone who has the unit for more than 4 years, which is actually quite common. I've had my lifetime Tivo for exactly 4 years, so starting this month I'm actually costing Tivo money to keep my service going.
> 
> As to your second point, you couldn't be more wrong. For primetime network TV, there are two sources of income. Affiliation Fees and advertising. AFFILIATES are allowed to, and often encouraged, to charge carriage fees, but this can usually only be recouped through affiliate fees (and aren't even close to enough to offset programming costs or the loss of advertising).
> 
> With cable networks, the model is set up a bit different, but the loss of advertising would be a significant blow to them as well. Assuming a cable network charges 25 cents per subscriber, and also assuming the network is available in 100 million homes, income from subscriber fees is only 25 million a month. It's significant, but 25 million a month doesn't go very far in licensing content, paying salaries, creating original content, paying utilities, office space, transponder time, equipment, etc.
> 
> To move to a completely ad free model, they'd have to start charging $5-10 per month in subscriber fees, which would translate to $10-15 by the time the cost is passed down to the consumer. This model can already be seen through HBO, Showtime, etc. For broadcast TV, these rates would have to be even higher, because costs to produce are also much higher.
> 
> Local TV stations actually make most of their money with local newscasts, because they get to sell 100% of the ad inventory.


Yes, they would take a hit. That doesn't mean that overall, over the life of the units, that they would not make money. They would.

I said that the carriage fees drive everything EXCEPT the big 4 networks, which is true.

For cable, HBO spends a LOT more money producing really good content than most of the cable channels. They are an outlier. Most of the cable channels could survive on the lot less. If we truly go a la carte, however, we will see an implosion of channels, since relatively few will get the masses of subscribers needed to stay in business, unless it's stacked so that most people just keep bloated packages.

I've never heard of local newscasts being that profitable, but rather as drivers for the network shows. If they really are making that much money off of the local ads, then the whole network model is completely pointless. NBC, ABC, CBS and FOX could just go national on cable, and let all the local channels go to local news and syndicated content.


----------



## slowbiscuit

mr_smits said:


> You aren't costing Tivo any money. You are just now seeing a return on your investment by paying for lifetime vs paying monthly.


Yeah I don't think Tivo is losing money on lifetime subs after 4 years, the cost to provide guide data is less than $2.50 per month. And they get other revenue from all the ads and data mining on your box anyway, so that might pay for the guide.

They're not making any money off of you I'd bet, but they're not losing anything.


----------



## lessd

slowbiscuit said:


> Yeah I don't think Tivo is losing money on lifetime subs after 4 years, the cost to provide guide data is less than $2.50 per month. And they get other revenue from all the ads and data mining on your box anyway, so that might pay for the guide.
> 
> They're not making any money off of you I'd bet, but they're not losing anything.


There are two parts to Lifetime vs Monthly, 1) what you said above if true and 2) if after say a year or so a Lifetime TiVo stops being used, after 6 months of non use the TiVo goes off the account (If started up again it will go back on the TiVo account), with monthly one would just stop paying, we don't know how many lifetime TiVos are taken out of service before the 4 year time (say go bad from a flood home fire like in CA etc.) vs how many people stop paying the monthly cost, without that data we can't tell how much money Lifetime Service vs Monthly makes for TiVo over the long run. What we do know is that a few people are still running the Series 1 that are over 10 years old, I would bet is that nobody with monthly is still paying to run a Series 1 (in the USA). 
Many people on this Forum will sell their Lifetime TiVo to upgrade, many others will just take the old Lifetime TiVo out of service and purchase another newer model TiVo, they will not take the time to sell on E-Bay or like.


----------



## slowbiscuit

The speculation wasn't about LT vs. monthly, it was about whether it costs them anything (net) to service an LT customer after 4 years.


----------



## lessd

slowbiscuit said:


> The speculation wasn't about LT vs. monthly, it was about whether it costs them anything (net) to service an LT customer after 4 years.


But unless one looks at the total picture it would not be clear even if TiVo paid money for guide service as long as the TiVo is connected (after 4 years) that it would be a loss for TiVo compared to monthly. On a single TiVo there would be cost after 4 years that not offset by TiVo accrual method, but I don't know if ads make up the difference and how much total money the average monthly TiVo generates over its working lifetime compared to a lifetime TiVo. IE if the average monthly TiVo stops having service after say 26 months than Lifetime is a better deal for TiVo.


----------



## Bigg

lessd said:


> But unless one looks at the total picture it would not be clear even if TiVo paid money for guide service as long as the TiVo is connected (after 4 years) that it would be a loss for TiVo compared to monthly. On a single TiVo there would be cost after 4 years that not offset by TiVo accrual method, but I don't know if ads make up the difference and how much total money the average monthly TiVo generates over its working lifetime compared to a lifetime TiVo. IE if the average monthly TiVo stops having service after say 26 months than Lifetime is a better deal for TiVo.


You could just do the math out.


----------



## lessd

Bigg said:


> You could just do the math out.


What is your input, as I don't work for TiVo, or have access to their books.


----------



## sbiller

TiVo's quarterly filings to the SEC provide some insight into the recurring costs TiVo incurs per retail (TiVo-Owned) subscriber. I won't go into details on the image below unless requested but a closer look at the numbers shows that TiVo's costs per DVR box are approximately $2.00/box/month. I suspect that there are some discounts associated with licenses on the Mini but I would not be surprised if Mini costs exceed $1.00/Mini/month.










FWIW, it was also revealed during Rovi's Q1 conference call that they receive approximately $1.00/mo for their guide data product (similar to tribune) and $0.25/mo for their tablet (e.g., iOS, Android) product. I'm nearly certain that TiVo pays similar fees to tribune. I expect that the cost of guide data and other licenses on the Mini is heavily discounted since the user is already a subscriber but the cost is not zero. Clearly this cost is recurring over the life of the box so there is some point after the box costs are amortized, in the case of lifetime, where the lifetimed Mini costs TiVo monthly while generating zero revenue.


----------



## lessd

sbiller said:


> TiVo's quarterly filings to the SEC provide some insight into the recurring costs TiVo incurs per retail (TiVo-Owned) subscriber. I won't go into details on the image below unless requested but a closer look at the numbers shows that TiVo's costs per DVR box are approximately $2.00/box/month. I suspect that there are some discounts associated with licenses on the Mini but I would not be surprised if Mini costs exceed $1.00/Mini/month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, it was also revealed during Rovi's Q1 conference call that they receive approximately $1.00/mo for their guide data product (similar to tribune) and $0.25/mo for their tablet (e.g., iOS, Android) product. I'm nearly certain that TiVo pays similar fees to tribune. I expect that the cost of guide data and other licenses on the Mini is heavily discounted since the user is already a subscriber but the cost is not zero. Clearly this cost is recurring over the life of the box so there is some point after the box costs are amortized, in the case of lifetime, where the lifetimed Mini costs TiVo monthly while generating zero revenue.


It that zero revenue that I have a question about as TiVo sells ads and viewing data, but I have no idea how much per box TiVo gets for that.


----------



## Bigg

So we can get pretty close with the math. And for comparing the two, the costs are the same for TiVo, so the comparison is just what the customer has to pay.


----------



## sbiller

lessd said:


> It that zero revenue that I have a question about as TiVo sells ads and viewing data, but I have no idea how much per box TiVo gets for that.


You'll notice a slight bump in ARPU for the last two quarters. That is service revenue associated with TiVo's acquisition of TRA. TiVo's advertising campaign's, prior to TRA, contribute a very small amount (pennies) per user/box.


----------



## slowbiscuit

sbiller said:


> I expect that the cost of guide data and other licenses on the Mini is heavily discounted since the user is already a subscriber but the cost is not zero. Clearly this cost is recurring over the life of the box so there is some point after the box costs are amortized, in the case of lifetime, where the lifetimed Mini costs TiVo monthly while generating zero revenue.


As has been mentioned elsewhere here, if Tivo is paying anything for guide data on the Mini they either have some very bad contract negotiators or they're getting a discount on the main boxes. The incremental guide data cost for Minis should be zero.


----------



## gfgray

I think Tivo calculated how much the mini would cannibalize sales of existing products and lifetime subscriptions and then set their pricing accordingly. I think they should have just accepted the cannibalization and tried to make up for it with volume since they would be a low cost leader.


----------



## magnus

gfgray said:


> I think Tivo calculated how much the mini would cannibalize sales of existing products and lifetime subscriptions and then set their pricing accordingly. I think they should have just accepted the cannibalization and tried to make up for it with volume since they would be a low cost leader.


That's my thought or they should have come up with a more reasonable fee for lifetime.


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## aaronwt

magnus said:


> That's my thought or they should have come up with a more reasonable fee for lifetime.


I thought the current fee for lifetime on a Mini is reasonable. Otherwise I would not have picked two up and put lifetime service on them.


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## SullyND

aaronwt said:


> I thought the current fee for lifetime on a Mini is reasonable. Otherwise I would have picked two up and put lifetime service on them.


?

Is reasonable, or is not?
Would have, or would not have?


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## aaronwt

SullyND said:


> ?
> 
> Is reasonable, or is not?
> Would have, or would not have?


Would not. I have two lifetime minis. I corrected the mistake in the post. 

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