# OK, I just can't take DTV ANYMORE!!!



## WindyCityGirl (Nov 17, 2007)

Ok...

I wont bore you with my DTV nightmares but rest assured they have finally pushed me over the edge.

RCN just entered my market and I am seriously considering making the switch. I have done a lot of reading here but it almost looks like I will have a better Tivo box with the Series3 tivo and two cablecards vesus my aging DirectTV with Tivo.

am I missing something here?


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

You may have a better TiVo box, but it will cost you more, and will you have a better TV service?

I can't answer that question as I don't even have a cable choice here and I've never heard of RCN, but you'll need to compare offerings and costs closely before making a decision. Remember to factor in any early termination fees from D* if you're still under contract.

Also remember that you will pay a subscription for each DVR if you have/need more than one, although you can get a discount on the second one.


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## WindyCityGirl (Nov 17, 2007)

My contract is over so no exit fees!!

I just look at the features of the Series3 versus the old DirectTV Tivo boxes and it seems like night and day.

That being said a lot of people are still subscribers to Direct TV so I keep thinking I have to be missing something here...



TonyTheTiger said:


> You may have a better TiVo box, but it will cost you more, and will you have a better TV service?
> 
> I can't answer that question as I don't even have a cable choice here and I've never heard of RCN, but you'll need to compare offerings and costs closely before making a decision. Remember to factor in any early termination fees from D* if you're still under contract.
> 
> Also remember that you will pay a subscription for each DVR if you have/need more than one, although you can get a discount on the second one.


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## rlj5242 (Dec 20, 2000)

What are your issues with D*? Programming? Equipment? Service? I've been a D* subscriber for 8 years with no issues other than a problem ordering a PPV football game this past season. That was corrected with a phone call and I only missed the first play.

And DTV = Digital Television, not DirecTV.

-Robert


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## halfempty (Oct 17, 2008)

WindyCityGirl said:


> am I missing something here?


Don't know in your case with RCN, you'll have to see what other users say about their quality, value, and customer service. I agree that D*'s customer service has gone down the tubes since Murdock bought them, hopefully they'll be getting better now.

In my case the very few times I thought about switching, I remember why I dumped cable in the first place. D* at its worst has been far better than the technical and customer service problems I had with Comcast down here. I have a couple of friends that had Comcast and the problems haven't changed much since I left them. One of them recently switched to D* and is quite pleased. I guess it boils down to who you compare them with.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

You may get more responses from folks who have actually dropped DirecTV for cable in one of the general TiVo forums. You can probably get direct feedback on peoples' experience with your specific cable comany in the Series 3 forum.

I switched from DirecTV to WOW! cable over a year ago and I'm very pleased. By bundling cable and internet I save over $20 per month and I have access to all the TiVo features that we were missing. DirecTV has raised their prices three times since I switched while my cable bill has actually gone down a couple of dollars. The notion that cable is always more expensive than DirecTV has been outdated for a while now.

Check for the availability of other cable companies in your area. Knowing that you're in a competitive area can help you get a good deal. One great thing about TiVo is that you can try it out and with no commitment for the first 30 days. If your cable company doesn't require a commitment then you can try TiVo and cable with very little risk.

Check your cable lineup to make sure that it's not missing any channels that you need or want. Keep in mind that you won't be able to order cable PPV through your Tivo remote or use the cable company's "OnDemand" services. Instead you get NetFlixs, Amazon, Jaman, YouTube, and CinemaNow all available instantly on your TiVo.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

WindyCityGirl said:


> My contract is over so no exit fees!!
> 
> I just look at the features of the Series3 versus the old DirectTV Tivo boxes and it seems like night and day.
> 
> That being said a lot of people are still subscribers to Direct TV so I keep thinking I have to be missing something here...


As has been asked, what exactly is your problem with DirecTV? Simply that they don't offer a Tivo receiver anymore? There is a new box coming in 2010 per Tivo, assuming it doesn't get delayed further or has any problems.

As for why a lot of people are still subscribers to DirecTV, well, there is over 18 million subscribers to DirecTV, nearly half has a DVR, vast majority not Tivo based. Personally I could care less what the DVR software is, so long as it records my programs and I can play them back. That is obviously what most people also feel, not just because of the DirecTV numbers but from the tens of millions of people that use a crappy cable DVR and are fine with it. People with an actual Tivo is a very small % of the people with DVRs.

Having said all that, Tivo is indeed more important then anything else to a few. If you are one of those then definately research your options with a Series 3 or Tivo HD unit and your cable option. Life is too short to be happy, so if your cable option gives you the channels you want, go for it.

In my case Charter stinks, missing several channels I want, especially in HD. Is more expensive for less channels then DirecTV. And I don't have $900 laying around to replace all my DirecTV DVRs with 3 Tivo HD units. Nor do I have another $1200 to pay for lifetime service on all 3. Sure, I could do monthly on those but that's a lot of money too.

But again, that's just me. Do what you feel will make you happiest, whatever that is.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

So I found this in another thread from the OP



> I just bought a HD TV for my basement and want a HD DVR for down there. As you can imagine DirectTV isn't offering any deals, wants to charge me a fortune for the box, and told me a need a new sat to make it all work (oh by the way I need to agree to a NEW 2 year contract for the honor of paying through the nose for a HD DVR).


So to me it almost sounds like it's not a Tivo issue.

Not sure what you consider a fortune but at most you'll pay $199 for a DirecTV HD DVR, many get it for $99 or less.

So if it's all over 200 bucks, you're going to spend a lot more then that just to get a Tivo HD unit.

Again, maybe there is more to it then just cost but if overall you're happy with DirecTV and you don't mind that their DVR isn't a Tivo then spending *more* to go with cable and stand alone Tivo's doesn't make a whole lot of sense to avoid paying DirecTV at most $200.

Maybe there is more to it but...
But like I said, do what will make you happy, whatever that choice is.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Maybe it's the thought of paying $199 for something and not owning it that bugs them.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

I have too many "features" with my Zippered SD Tivos (direct secure remote access via TivoWeb web interface, multi-room viewing, tytool, ability to upgrade recording space, etc.) that I cannot duplicate elsewhere... DTV will have to get pretty lousy before I switch.


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## Dkerr24 (Oct 29, 2004)

goony said:


> I have too many "features" with my Zippered SD Tivos (direct secure remote access via TivoWeb web interface, multi-room viewing, tytool, ability to upgrade recording space, etc.) that I cannot duplicate elsewhere... DTV will have to get pretty lousy before I switch.


Ditto... I have too many features I've added to my DTivo units to switch. It would take a big price jump to make me want to switch to our local cable company.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

magnus said:


> Maybe it's the thought of paying $199 for something and not owning it that bugs them.


Perhaps. $300 plus $400 lifetime is $700 up front for a Tivo HD. Talk about OUCH. or $12.95 a month. But I guess you own it. I'd rather just lease the dang thing for a whole lot cheaper and get it replaced for free if it breaks or get a low cost upgrade to the latest greatest in a few years. All the big bucks I've spent to own receivers over the years has gotten me no advantage but a lighter wallet. To each his own.


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## rlj5242 (Dec 20, 2000)

magnus said:


> Maybe it's the thought of paying $199 for something and not owning it that bugs them.


What about us early HR10-250 adopters who shelled out $1,000 for a high def receiver that will only tune in a hand full of HD channels via satellite. I'll upgrade my DVR like I do my cell phone now. Every couple of years pay a reduced amount for one with better features and tie myself to the provider for a specific length of time.

-Robert


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

It all depends on how you use it. My SA Tivo has saved me money after the first year. OTA and Netflix is great.


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## halfempty (Oct 17, 2008)

magnus said:


> Maybe it's the thought of paying $199 for something and not owning it that bugs them.


Bugs the crap out of me, and combined with the non-Tivo software has kept me from upgrading. Don't mind paying the $199 and the extended commitment, but at the end of that time I should own the unit, like a cell phone.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

TonyTheTiger said:


> You may have a better TiVo box, but it will cost you more, and will you have a better TV service?
> 
> I can't answer that question as I don't even have a cable choice here and I've never heard of RCN, but you'll need to compare offerings and costs closely before making a decision. Remember to factor in any early termination fees from D* if you're still under contract.


How do you know it will cost more if you've never heard of his provider...?


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Now, there's a person with remorse well after fact.



rlj5242 said:


> What about us early HR10-250 adopters who shelled out $1,000 for a high def receiver that will only tune in a hand full of HD channels via satellite. I'll upgrade my DVR like I do my cell phone now. Every couple of years pay a reduced amount for one with better features and tie myself to the provider for a specific length of time.
> 
> -Robert


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

I don't know if any of you tried to call DirecTV lately, but just last week I squeezed free HR-22 from them by just telling them that I could switch to Dish or Comcast and get all the free goodies. I had to sign up for another two years of course, but I am going to stay with them anyhow because of the programming I need.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

rlj5242 said:


> What about us early HR10-250 adopters who shelled out $1,000 for a high def receiver that will only tune in a hand full of HD channels via satellite. I'll upgrade my DVR like I do my cell phone now. Every couple of years pay a reduced amount for one with better features and tie myself to the provider for a specific length of time.
> 
> -Robert


I paid $850 for my HR10 and have since gotten 2 free HD DVR upgrades from DirecTV. You should be able to get an upgrade now for free. So I paid $850 for 3 HD DVRs that I have gotten use out of for many years. Seems like a fair deal to me.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

magnus said:


> It all depends on how you use it. My SA Tivo has saved me money after the first year. OTA and Netflix is great.


However we're not talking about the programming component here. Yea, if you go OTA only then you'll save a ton in programming costs to easily pay for a Tivo HD (or whatever). The OP seems to indicate that they will go with cable, thus the programming cost will still be there and probably similar to DirecTV.

Totally understand it from the perspective of wanting to keep the Tivo UI, but spending $700 to simply avoid paying $199 appears to be cutting your nose off to spite your face but maybe I'm wrong.


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## rlj5242 (Dec 20, 2000)

bigpuma said:


> I paid $850 for my HR10 and have since gotten 2 free HD DVR upgrades from DirecTV. You should be able to get an upgrade now for free. So I paid $850 for 3 HD DVRs that I have gotten use out of for many years. Seems like a fair deal to me.


I didn't exactly pay $1,000 for my HR10. The going rate was around $900 at the time and Best Buy had a 50% off coupon for Tivos that would work on the HR10. I snuck in for $450. My HR20 and HR22 DVR's were free. I currently have all 3 subscribed and shared between my two HDTV's.

As for the UI compaints, I don't have any. I programmed my Harmony remotes so that the same functionality is on the same button no matter what DVR you are currently controlling. I like the DirecTV branded DVR's better because they are much faster. I reorganized my shows in the Prioritizer in seconds. When changing the order on the HR10, it will take 10 or more minutes to re-sort everything.

After being a Dishplayer user, I thought I it was the Tivo UI that kept me with DirecTV. Turns out it is the reliability of the signal (the neighbor's cable is always out) and a DVR that is reliable. I can learn a new UI in a couple of days.

-Robert


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

halfempty said:


> Bugs the crap out of me, and combined with the non-Tivo software has kept me from upgrading. Don't mind paying the $199 and the extended commitment, but at the end of that time I should own the unit, like a cell phone.


Since it is a Directv receiver and would be without use as a stand-alone device (given the fact that the savings involved in paying only $199 would blow away anything that you could make by selling a used $400 unit on E-Bay) what difference does it make?

It would be a paperweight if you cancelled your service. So...it would be one you owned. Whooppee!!!


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## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

Well I'm one that after 5 years, made to switch from Directv to cable. For me it was all about service/equipment. The HR series was a total flop for me. The 2 yr contract was the longest 2 years of my life. Four replacements.  I never felt I was getting the service I was paying for. In fact I even bought out the remaining 4 months to end it early. I went with my cable company and the only channel that I lost that I watched on occasion was Nasa. But I gained some HD channels that Directv took away from my package a while back. Smithsonian HD, HDnet movies, Universal HD and 1 or 2 more. Also a couple of local access channels that I wished I had. But what really surprised me was the picture quality of my local cable company. Now keep in mind, I'm not a pixel counter, but my cable HD channels look every bit as good as what I had with Directv! SD channels look great also. I'm paying about $15/mo less than with Directv, and that includes the monthly Tivo fee. I paid $148 for my TivoHD at Sears, and I absolutely love it! It has features doubtful Directv receiver will ever have(including the upcoming DirectTivo). DLBs, Netflix, YouTube, Amazon VOD, Blockbuster(coming soon), playing my mp3s from my PC to my Tivo in the living room surround system is awesome! And last but not least...*no contract!* So far I'm happy.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

mp11 said:


> It has features doubtful Directv receiver will ever have(including the upcoming DirectTivo). DLBs, Netflix, YouTube, Amazon VOD, Blockbuster(coming soon), playing my mp3s from my PC to my Tivo in the living room surround system is awesome!


Just an FYI for clarity, most of what you list you can do on a DirecTV DVR and have been able to for a while. No DLB of course, but I could stream MP3s for nearly 2 years now if I wanted to. YouTube, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon VOD, every video podcast on the planet all available to stream to your DirecTV DVR as well. Sure you need to run something like PlayOn or Tversity on your PC but it's very doable and easy.


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## halfempty (Oct 17, 2008)

dtremain said:


> It would be a paperweight if you cancelled your service. So...it would be one you owned. Whooppee!!!


Guess I'm just a grumpy old fart set in my ways and a little commitment phobic. Never leased a car or anything else. I like to pay up front and know that part of it is done with. When I'm finished with it I can roll it over with a truck, give it away to one of my relatives, sell it on eBay, gut it for parts, or whatever else I choose. Don't like the idea that a piece of equipment I use and pay for is not mine and never will be.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

WindyCityGirl said:


> Ok...
> 
> I wont bore you with my DTV nightmares but rest assured they have finally pushed me over the edge.
> 
> ...





WindyCityGirl said:


> My contract is over so no exit fees!!
> 
> I just look at the features of the Series3 versus the old DirectTV Tivo boxes and it seems like night and day.
> 
> That being said a lot of people are still subscribers to Direct TV so I keep thinking I have to be missing something here...


Welcome to the light, Windy 

You're not missing anything. The TiVo is 1000% better than DirecTV. I was a DirecTV subscriber only for the DTivo experience for nearly 10 years. Once DirecTV started strangling the Tivos, I killed DirecTV. In my case they ripped me off for a $106 early termination and THAT is worth it to me to be rid of them, only I vowed to get it back one as one canceled sub per dollar.

If you buy a TiVo HD you'll only need one M-card CableCARD. It will be hard to find a Series 3 now, and they're going for a lot of money.

I dunno how well RCN supports CableCARD (search here for experiences) but Comcast does, if you can hold your nose. Comcast was actually tolerable to me in this millennium.

PM me if you need any help. I'm in the fringe Chicago burbs now.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

shibby191 said:


> Perhaps. $300 plus $400 lifetime is $700 up front for a Tivo HD. Talk about OUCH. or $12.95 a month. But I guess you own it. I'd rather just lease the dang thing for a whole lot cheaper and get it replaced for free if it breaks or get a low cost upgrade to the latest greatest in a few years. All the big bucks I've spent to own receivers over the years has gotten me no advantage but a lighter wallet. To each his own.


Perhaps, but anybody with an ounce of sense can buy a HD for $249 (from TiVo) and get Lifetime in the low $300s on eBay. An existing TiVo sub gets a better deal than that with multiple unit and equipment discounts.

NPV means to figure out how many $15(?) a months of DirecTV fees it takes to break even.

Oh. I know. Just call and sweet talk a DirecTV CSR....and Woot! You can score a unit you don't own for only $200 and two more years of misery! And it hardly ever doesn't work in the rain or snow hardly anymore....and it works real good if you have the next version of software that hasn't been released yet....no, not that version, the next one for sure.

In the meantime we'll be watching the content from our TiVos in every room and on every device we have.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Part of the issue here is there are quite a few variables in the mix, including external variables such as how much the local CATV provider charges for a particular service mix and how good their tech support may be. Also included as part of the mix is personal preferences, which may vary a great deal from person to person.

Some people prefer leased equipment, which admittedly side-steps the issues of obsolescence and repair maintenance. Others, like me, refuse to deal with a unit which they cannot upgrade and / or hack themselves - pretty much verboten if one does not own the equipment.

D*, rather like McDonalds, has the advantages and disadvantages of a uniform national presence. A McDonald's burgrer purchased in Iowa tastes precisely the same - good or bad - as one picked up in Oregon. In and of itself, this diminishes the variability of choosing a vendor such as DirecTV, because even with its warts, one can know fairly well what to expect, and sometimes it's better the devil one knows than the one unknown. On the other hand, many people prefer to seek out more personalized vendors who often can deliver better service at the risk of encountering one whose service is truly lousy.

Cost is also a significant issue for many people, and stating DirecTV is cheaper than all CATV offerings is over-simplified and downright incorrect. My sister has DirecTV because she has to, and for the services she wants CATV would be much cheaper. She's not interested in most of the channels her DirecTV service supplies, and basic cable service in nearby urban areas is less expensive than her costs from DirecTV.

Additionally, one should consider HD offerings and interactive services in the mix. Satellite generally has much less to offer in when it comes to interactive and internet based services. There is also something to be said for a single monthly bill for TV, phone, and internet service. Right now the options for HD services on a TiVo platform are severely limited, and the DirecTiVos are missing most of the more advanced (and popular) features of the S3 class TiVos.

For me, there are a number of absolutely critical deal-breakers involved with moving to satellite services:

1. An unhacked DVR is all but useless for my purposes.
2. There are a number of absolutely essential 3rd party applications for the TiVo not available for the DirecTV DVRs.
3. I couldn't care less about the UI, but there are a number of absolutely essential features of the TiVo not found on the satellite DVRs, at least not the last time I checked, which admitedly was several months ago.

On the down-side for both platforms is the fact one is more or less locked into one or the other. For most users, the investment in one platform tends to preclude the jumping from one platform to the other, unless one becomes rather extremely aggravated with the current service. Unfortunately, this produces a sort of virtual loyalty to one's current service not warranted by the actual quality of the service. I see many of the posts here and elsewhere that can largely be summed up by the statement, "It's good enough." It wouldn't be, if switching from one to the other were as easy and inexpensive as making two phone calls.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dtremain said:


> It would be a paperweight if you cancelled your service. So...it would be one you owned. Whooppee!!!





halfempty said:


> Guess I'm just a grumpy old fart set in my ways and a little commitment phobic. Never leased a car or anything else. I like to pay up front and know that part of it is done with. When I'm finished with it I can roll it over with a truck, give it away to one of my relatives, sell it on eBay, gut it for parts, or whatever else I choose. Don't like the idea that a piece of equipment I use and pay for is not mine and never will be.


Both attitudes have merit, whether one is a grumpy old fart or a grumpy young fart. 

It's up to the individual to decide which suits them better, so really the statements should not be, "XXX is better because AAA", but rather, "XXX is a bettter choice if one prefers AAA, and YYY is a better choice if one prefers YYY". If the OP prefers renting / leasing, then the Tivo is less preferred for that aspect, irrespective of anythng else. If overall the OP prefers owning the unit, then TiVo is clearly a better choice in this category.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

It always amazes me how one person's bad experience is translated into a tirade of abuse to anyone and everyone who suggests going with that company.

If you had a bum wrap, it was just that and doesn't mean the whole company sucks. Some have no choice in how they get their TV fix other than D* or E* and yes, they both have their failings, as do cablecos, but there's no need to go to war if anyone else wants information about the service.

By all means, share your experiences, good OR bad, but to slam a company at every opportunity only makes one look foolish and exposes a need to bear a grudge.

To the OP, make your own decisions and ignore the rants. There isn't a big business in existence that has yet managed to please all the people all the time!


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

magnus said:


> It all depends on how you use it. My SA Tivo has saved me money after the first year. OTA and Netflix is great.


As are Galleon, pyTiVo, TyTool, TiVoWebPlus, and a host of other 3rd party utilities, not to mention native utilities like MRV and podcasts. I personally find YouTube to be of little value, but many people are very excited by it. As to saving money - while I am certainly conscious of my budget, within reasonable limits I am more concerned about quality, features, and convenience than cost. Saving $100 here or there over a 3 - 5 year period is not worth any great amount of aggravation, to me. That said, my Series I TiVo with a lifetime sub cost me less than $6 a month over the 7 year period it was in daily use. Since transferring the sub to a new S3 back in 2006, the S1 has no longer been in daily use - there being no guide data - but I still use it to make copies of videos from analog sources for archive purposes, so it tops the list as one of my best investments in video equipment for value / cost.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

rlj5242 said:


> After being a Dishplayer user, I thought I it was the Tivo UI that kept me with DirecTV. Turns out it is the reliability of the signal (the neighbor's cable is always out) and a DVR that is reliable.


For many people, it's a real consideration. Unfortunately, it is also one which is variable with location. The reliability of satellite services is rather variable with geographic location. People in Arizona rarely have weather related issues, while people in Buffalo are probably much more likely to have problems related to wind, rain, snow, and ice. These same issues also impact CATV service, but usually to a lesser extent. More importantly, some CATV comanies, especially small operators in medium sized towns, still have very long, fault prone aluminim cable runs. Some may have more than 20 amplifiers in cascade, with 7 or 8 or even more power realms, every one of which, alonmg with up to 10 miles of coaxial cable in line, represents a single point of failure. Most larger systems, however, have replaced the bulk of their aluminim coaxial trunk lines with fiber optics, greatly reducing the number of tyes of potential issues and shorteneing the cascades to usually fewer than 4 amplifiers, less than 1 mile of coax, and 1 power realm. This has substanitally hardened their plant. I've only had 2 outages in the last 6 years.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shibby191 said:


> Perhaps. $300 plus $400 lifetime is $700 up front for a Tivo HD.


Well, first of all, a brand new TiVo HD can be had for $240, not $300, and the $399 is only for the first TiVo, and only for lifetime. I myself prefer lifetime, but yearly or month-to-month plans are availble. In addition, there are significant discounts for existing customers who wish to transfer their lifetime sub to a new TiVo and also deep discounts for additional subscriptions. TiVos, and in particular ones with lifetime subs, retain a greeat deal of their resale value, as well. A used TiVo HD with lifetime sub sells on e-bay for about $550 with the buyer payng the shipping. In practical terms, this means the user can "try out" a TiVo HD for a year or so for about $90. Unlless one runs over the Tivo with the family station wagon, that's not a terribly bad investment. If one cares to shell out the initial inverstment, one can purchase a pair of TiVo HDs, get one lifetime plus one discount lifetime, use them for a year, sell on ebay, and break even. 'A pretty sweet deal, if you ask me.


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## halfempty (Oct 17, 2008)

TonyTheTiger said:


> It always amazes me how one person's bad experience is translated into a tirade of abuse to anyone and everyone who suggests going with that company.


You're right, and apologies for my part of that rant. Didn't mean to make it sound like I hate D*, just don't like some of their policies. Couldn't tell by my post but I have been a fairly satisfied D* subscriber for 9 years, patiently chugging along with my owned upgraded and hacked DSR70x's waiting for the new HD DTivo to come out.

I fully agree with lrhorer in that the best provider for anyone is the one they are the happiest with, and hope the OP finds that.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shibby191 said:


> Personally I could care less what the DVR software is, so long as it records my programs and I can play them back.


I submit that may be because you have never used a DVR with superior software. Regardless, it is *not* sufficient for a DVR simply to record and play back. A VCR can do that quite admirably. How you regard your free time and personal resources is up to you, but personally I have neither the time nor the inclination to spend searching endlessly through tens of thousands of available programs - the vast majority of which are nothing but crap - in order to find a few dozen to record. Now to be fair, even the DirecTV DVRs perform better in this regard to an extent, your statement notwithstanding. The point is the TiVo handles this in a far more flexible and powerful fashion with not 1 or 2 but *NINE* distinct search engines, several of which are quite unique in the industry. Wishlists, Season Passes, and direct searches are far more flexible and tuneable than on any competing DVR. As far as I know, TiVo Suggestions is completely unique in hte industry, and one of the TiVo's most powerful, important, and innovative features. For the most part, by a wide margin I don't select programs to record. Rather I tell the TiVo what I like (plus it has the unique ability to actually automatically figure out what I like and either record it automatically or if I choose select from a list of suggestions), let it find the programs for me, and record them. It's considerably more accurate than trying to do it myself, and it saves me literally untold hours of tedium. With a very small set of exceptions, I don't do anything but sit down and select programs to watch from a well filtered list of already recorded, high quality programming. To me, that's worth a lot.



shibby191 said:


> It would be a paperweight if you cancelled your service. So...it would be one you owned. Whooppee!!!


Well, first of all, that's not true. Even without CATV sevice, the TiVo does a fine job of recording OTA, the fact there is not much of worth other than PBS available OTA notwithstanding. What's more, even if it were a paperweight, a paperweight which can be sold for more than 70% of its purchase cost is not a bad thing to own.



shibby191 said:


> That is obviously what most people also feel, not just because of the DirecTV numbers but from the tens of millions of people that use a crappy cable DVR and are fine with it.


"Fine" is a relative term. Obviously many people are "fine" owning a Chevy Impala, and while the Impala is a reasonably serviceable vehicle, no one is claiming it to be better than a Lexus. More to the point, anyone who has ever driven a Lexus is going to be a lot less "fine" owning their Impala than before. The same is true here. The Tivo is without question a premium device while other DVRs are more commonplace. As is usually the case, premium services also carry a premium price tag. Fortunately, the price differential is nowhere nearly as big with the Tivo as is the case for a new Lexus, and a great many people would find their "fine" DVRs to be a lot less "fine" if they experienced the features of a Tivo firsthand. Having been forced to go the other direction, leasing a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD for 9 long, miserable months until the Series III was introduced, I know just how "crappy" the competition really is. McDonald's hamburgers are "just fine", too, when one hasn't sampled food prepared by a 5 star chef. Anyone who has, however, is going to be a lot less excited at the prospect of eating at McDonald's.



shibby191 said:


> People with an actual Tivo is a very small % of the people with DVRs.


'Not "very small". Less than 20%, but not less than 1%. There are a couple of million TiVos out there.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

TonyTheTiger said:


> It always amazes me how one person's bad experience is translated into a tirade of abuse to anyone and everyone who suggests going with that company.


I agree. That said, if the OP does decide to move to CATV services, I definitely suggest they go with the TiVo, especially if their local CATV provider leases the Scientific Atlanta (Cisco) SA 8300HDC with SARA software. Anyone who voluntarily puts up with that piece of offal is either a hero or an idiot.



TonyTheTiger said:


> To the OP, make your own decisions and ignore the rants. There isn't a big business in existence that has yet managed to please all the people all the time!


I wouldn't ignore them entirely, but I would definitely take them with a grain of salt. Some people do go ballistic over what are in the larger picture rather minor inconveniences, but OTOH some companies do indeed have truly bad policies and procedures. In this case, I am extremely unimpressed by DirecTV's business policies, customer support, and pricing. By comparison, I am extremely unimpressed by Time Warner Cable's business policies, customer support, and pricing. 'A clear choice, huh, but what is one to do?


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

netringer said:


> Oh. I know. Just call and sweet talk a DirecTV CSR....and Woot! You can score a unit you don't own for only $200 and two more years of misery!
> 
> In the meantime we'll be watching the content from our TiVos in every room and on every device we have.


Well, I have no misery and I have MRV as well.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> I submit that may be because you have never used a DVR with superior software.


Got my first Tivo in 2000 ($600 bucks, whoohoo!) and owned at least half a dozen over the past decade. Does that count?



> Regardless, it is *not* sufficient for a DVR simply to record and play back. A VCR can do that quite admirably. How you regard your free time and personal resources is up to you, but personally I have neither the time nor the inclination to spend searching endlessly through tens of thousands of available programs - the vast majority of which are nothing but crap - in order to find a few dozen to record. Now to be fair, even the DirecTV DVRs perform better in this regard to an extent, your statement notwithstanding. The point is the TiVo handles this in a far more flexible and powerful fashion with not 1 or 2 but *NINE* distinct search engines, several of which are quite unique in the industry.


Honestly I think it's pretty obvious you've never used a DirecTV DVR.



> Wishlists, Season Passes, and direct searches are far more flexible and tuneable than on any competing DVR.


DirecTV DVRs have all these and in fact the autorecord searches are more powerful in some ways then the wishlist. But the Tivo wishlist is better in other ways.



> As far as I know, TiVo Suggestions is completely unique in hte industry, and one of the TiVo's most powerful, important, and innovative features. For the most part, by a wide margin I don't select programs to record. Rather I tell the TiVo what I like (plus it has the unique ability to actually automatically figure out what I like and either record it automatically or if I choose select from a list of suggestions), let it find the programs for me, and record them. It's considerably more accurate than trying to do it myself, and it saves me literally untold hours of tedium. With a very small set of exceptions, I don't do anything but sit down and select programs to watch from a well filtered list of already recorded, high quality programming. To me, that's worth a lot.


Yea, suggestions are a Tivo patent I believe. But I don't spend all this time you talk about searching for programs, not at all. I have plenty of season passes and searches that keep my DVRs plenty full.



> 'Not "very small". Less than 20%, but not less than 1%. There are a couple of million TiVos out there.


Ok, 2 million (and dropping) out of 40-50 million. Whatever the % that is. Fact is that most people don't see the value in paying more for Tivo. That doesn't mean it's not the best or isn't the premium, but most people don't care. They care that they can watch American Idol and that's about it. 

People should do what makes them happy, whatever that is.


----------



## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

shibby191 said:


> YouTube, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon VOD, every video podcast on the planet all available to stream to your DirecTV DVR as well. Sure you need to run something like PlayOn or Tversity on your PC but it's very doable and easy.


Something "doable and easy" as opposed to something already there in a standalone Tivo? Hmmm. If you say so.


----------



## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> > Well, first of all, a brand new TiVo HD can be had for $240, not $300,
> 
> 
> Actually alot less...$148 at Sears for brand new TivoHD.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

mp11 said:


> Something "doable and easy" as opposed to something already there in a standalone Tivo? Hmmm. If you say so.


Just pointing out that you don't have to have only a Tivo to get these features. Heck, I can stream most of that stuff to my Wii for crying out loud. No Tivo needed.


----------



## rock_doctor (Oct 22, 2000)

magnus said:


> Maybe it's the thought of paying $199 for something and not owning it that bugs them.


This is the reason i am still using units that are more then 6yrs old.


----------



## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

shibby191 said:


> Just pointing out that you don't have to have only a Tivo to get these features. Heck, I can stream most of that stuff to my Wii for crying out loud. No Tivo needed.


OK now you're comparing apples to oranges. Bottom line is, stand alone Tivo *IS* superior to DTVs DVR. The only people that truely understand that are the ones that have had both.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Well.... I'm saving $960 per year by using SA Tivo and Netflix. If people really think about what they watch... it's basically network TV and about 5 premium channels. It was when I evaluated what I was watching that it made sense to me. And after a couple of years of OTA... the fact that people don't get this astounds me.

So, no matter how you slice it.... Directv just does not compare. There are to many stations of crap for my taste.



shibby191 said:


> Ok, 2 million (and dropping) out of 40-50 million. Whatever the % that is. Fact is that most people don't see the value in paying more for Tivo. That doesn't mean it's not the best or isn't the premium, but most people don't care. They care that they can watch American Idol and that's about it.
> 
> People should do what makes them happy, whatever that is.


----------



## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

halfempty said:


> Guess I'm just a grumpy old fart set in my ways and a little commitment phobic. Never leased a car or anything else. I like to pay up front and know that part of it is done with. When I'm finished with it I can roll it over with a truck, give it away to one of my relatives, sell it on eBay, gut it for parts, or whatever else I choose. Don't like the idea that a piece of equipment I use and pay for is not mine and never will be.


How old a fart are you?

I assume that you didn't have telephone service back in the '50's when the telephones were owned by AT&T and not the user. After all, you wouldn't be able to run it over with a truck if you wanted to.

Personally, I would rather save hundreds of dollars and let someone else own something that wouldn't work at all if I weren't buying their service.

But, I guess that's just me.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

That is a huge advantage of cable in my mind, no commitment....


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

I feel people's pain for those that paid up to $1K for a HD TiVo. I waited a year before jumping on them...2 were completely free and never paid more than the $19.95 shipping charges for the other 3 out of the 5 I still have active. After all said and done, they are still great OTA tuners w/5.1 DD even when deactivated.


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## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

dtremain said:


> > I assume that you didn't have telephone service back in the '50's when the telephones were owned by AT&T and not the user.
> 
> 
> Not the same thing. Back then there was no choice. Today there is.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

mp11 said:


> dtremain said:
> 
> 
> > Not the same thing. Back then there was no choice. Today there is.
> ...


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

mp11 said:


> OK now you're comparing apples to oranges. Bottom line is, stand alone Tivo *IS* superior to DTVs DVR. The only people that truely understand that are the ones that have had both.


Sure it's superior in total features. There is no question. I personally would never deny that.

But it's only superior to each customer if they actually care about those features or if those features trump something else (like Sunday Ticket or MLB). There is much more involved with making this choice for most people then just the features of the DVR. So far the consumer has decided that despite being a superior product Tivo is not for them. Doesn't mean that can't change, but it's been an uphill battle for Tivo for a long time. They used to own the DVR market but now are just a minor player, market share wise anyway.


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

TonyTheTiger said:


> mp11 said:
> 
> 
> > For many, no there isn't!
> ...


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

magnus said:


> Well.... I'm saving $960 per year by using SA Tivo and Netflix. If people really think about what they watch... it's basically network TV and about 5 premium channels. It was when I evaluated what I was watching that it made sense to me. And after a couple of years of OTA... the fact that people don't get this astounds me.
> 
> So, no matter how you slice it.... Directv just does not compare. There are to many stations of crap for my taste.


Sure, but that's your feelings. You're saving a ton. So could everyone. But the problem is that you seem to feel that everyone is stupid because they don't see what you see or don't get it.

I have made this evaluation myself. There is just too much stuff that we highly value watching that can't be had OTA or via Netflix. Basically sports. Can't watch my hockey team OTA. And there are others as well. So we have the lowest package possible that still gets us the "must have" channels and we use Netflix for movies and whatnot. We also stream a ton off Hulu to our TV thru our DVR. If push came to shove and we had to cut it out we could go OTA only, but we choose not too (and most people choose not too since less then 20% use OTA only). Maybe we're all just tossing our money down the drain but to think everyone is dumb for not going OTA only is a bit harsh.

And too keep bringing it up in this discussion when people don't want to go OTA only just derails it.


----------



## nycityuser (Dec 30, 2004)

I use RCN with standalone TIVOs when I'm in New York and DirecTv with TIVO when I'm in Los Angeles.

For regular TV viewing the main difference is that DirecTv can't transfer a show from one room to the other. Otherwise I see little difference.

DirecTivo is cheaper because you pay one DVR subscription fee regardless of how many boxes are served. With standalone TIVO you pay for each DVR.

Standalone TIVO has more bells and whistles (Netflix, downloading to PC, amazon video-on-demand, etc.) but those have nothing to do with just watching television.

Oddly, one needs an HD TIVO for use with RCN because RCN scrambles all of their channels. Thus you need to use the cablecard technology in order to have two working tuners.

DirecTivo, on the other hand, is currently only available for SD use.

If I had DirecTivo and had the option to switch to RCN with TIVO I would not, unless I wanted HD viewing. Otherwise, it is too costly an investment for little difference in TV viewing experience.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> So you do have a choice, as E* has a no commitment option....


...which adds even more to the cost like $99 installation fee, no free movie channels and other things that price it out of the market.


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## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

shibby191 said:


> Sure it's superior in total features. There is no question. I personally would never deny that.
> 
> But it's only superior to each customer if they actually care about those features or if those features trump something else (like Sunday Ticket or MLB). There is much more involved with making this choice for most people then just the features of the DVR. So far the consumer has decided that despite being a superior product Tivo is not for them. Doesn't mean that can't change, but it's been an uphill battle for Tivo for a long time. They used to own the DVR market but now are just a minor player, market share wise anyway.


Not just superior in features...its well known in the industry that Tivo units are generally more stable than what Directv has. There are good HR units out there. But make no mistake, The HR series has been a pain in the as* of Directv since day one. Customer service has deemed it as "Having issues".


----------



## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

TonyTheTiger said:


> mp11 said:
> 
> 
> > For many, no there isn't!
> ...


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

mp11 said:


> Not just superior in features...its well known in the industry that Tivo units are generally more stable than what Directv has. There are good HR units out there. But make no mistake, The HR series has been a pain in the as* of Directv since day one. Customer service has deemed it as "Having issues".


Must not be too bad since customers out of their commitments aren't dropping DirecTV, DirecTV is growing by record numbers while nearly everyone else is losing customers. I guess either it's because of something else or the DVR is good enough. 

Anyway, enough of this arguing. This forum was nearly killed by it a year ago and it's been a much better place recently. Get what makes you happy, whatever that is.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

TonyTheTiger said:


> ...which adds even more to the cost like $99 installation fee, no free movie channels and other things that price it out of the market.


So? They offer you free installation if you want a commitment.

$99 isn't terribly expensive to mount a dish on your rough, run 4-6 RG6 runs, and 2-3 hours of an installers time IMO...


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## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

Adam1115 said:


> So? They offer you free installation if you want a commitment.
> 
> $99 isn't terribly expensive to mount a dish on your rough, run 4-6 RG6 runs, and 2-3 hours of an installers time IMO...


I agree. If I would ever go back to satellite, thats the deal I would take. Nothing to installing a dish. Although, with cable I got free installation *and* no commitment. :up: And my locals in HD which neither company could provide.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Where did you get stupid? I did not say that. I'm saying that it astounds me that 'most' people don't see the value proposition of OTA.



shibby191 said:


> Sure, but that's your feelings. You're saving a ton. So could everyone. But the problem is that you seem to feel that everyone is stupid because they don't see what you see or don't get it.
> 
> I have made this evaluation myself. There is just too much stuff that we highly value watching that can't be had OTA or via Netflix. Basically sports. Can't watch my hockey team OTA. And there are others as well. So we have the lowest package possible that still gets us the "must have" channels and we use Netflix for movies and whatnot. We also stream a ton off Hulu to our TV thru our DVR. If push came to shove and we had to cut it out we could go OTA only, but we choose not too (and most people choose not too since less then 20% use OTA only). Maybe we're all just tossing our money down the drain but to think everyone is dumb for not going OTA only is a bit harsh.


Says you.... I don't see the problem with letting others know about the value proposition of OTA only and Netflix.



> And too keep bringing it up in this discussion when people don't want to go OTA only just derails it.


----------



## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Well, since they don't put it on your bill and they don't tell you when they give you one... how would you know you could ever leave if you wanted to??



shibby191 said:


> Must not be too bad since customers out of their commitments aren't dropping DirecTV, DirecTV is growing by record numbers while nearly everyone else is losing customers. I guess either it's because of something else or the DVR is good enough.
> 
> Anyway, enough of this arguing. This forum was nearly killed by it a year ago and it's been a much better place recently. Get what makes you happy, whatever that is.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

shibby191 said:


> No DLB of course


Well this is no longer the case. Check the CE forum at DBSTalk.


----------



## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

shibby191 said:


> Well this is no longer the case. Check the CE forum at DBSTalk.


Wow, glad I saw this, downloading now. Now they have covered all of the features I wanted on the HR2x.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shibby191 said:


> Got my first Tivo in 2000 ($600 bucks, whoohoo!) and owned at least half a dozen over the past decade. Does that count?


Perhaps. There's a difference between owning a device and using it. Note also I was very careful to say, "may be", not "is".



shibby191:7227846 said:


> Honestly I think it's pretty obvious you've never used a DirecTV DVR.


I've tried it, but it's been a while. Have you used the latest TiVo utilities? They've upped the number of search engines from 5 to 9, and Wishlists now have boolean expressions with expanded targets. One can search by HD content, general keyword, title-only keyword, genre, etc. One can include one actor or director but exclude another actor or director (e.g. John Wayne + Maureen O'Hara, or John Wayne except directed by John Ford).



shibby191 said:


> DirecTV DVRs have all these and in fact the autorecord searches are more powerful in some ways then the wishlist. But the Tivo wishlist is better in other ways.


BEing specific might help.



shibby191 said:


> Yea, suggestions are a Tivo patent I believe. But I don't spend all this time you talk about searching for programs, not at all. I have plenty of season passes and searches that keep my DVRs plenty full.


OK.



shibby191 said:


> Ok, 2 million (and dropping) out of 40-50 million.


No, not 50 million. There are only about 80 million subs total. I think the number of households with DVRs is around 20 million, but I haven't looked recently.



shibby191 said:


> Whatever the % that is. Fact is that most people don't see the value in paying more for Tivo.


Or just can't afford it. That's not quite the same thing.



shibby191 said:


> People should do what makes them happy, whatever that is.


Yes, but many people don't know what geat unknown things await them. Not having driven a Lexus, many people don't know what they are missing. Most people haven't tried a TiVo. OTOH, if you can't afford it, perhaps ignorance is bliss.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

magnus said:


> Where did you get stupid? I did not say that. I'm saying that it astounds me that 'most' people don't see the value proposition of OTA.


That's because there isn't one. Other than PBS, there's almost nothing whatsoever worth watching OTA, yet the average consumer is forced to pay upwards of $2000 a year, whether they watch it, or not.



shibby191 said:


> Says you.... I don't see the problem with letting others know about the value proposition of OTA only and Netflix.


Netflix is another matter. With them you get that for which you pay. With OTA, the consumer has the money ripped from his wallet - to the tuine of $700 billion a year - whether he likes it or not, and whether he watches a single program or not.


----------



## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

So, you are arguing that no one watches Lost, Heroes, Chuck, American Idol, Kings, My Name is Earl, the news, football, baseball, just to name a few.

You can't seriously try to state that you don't watch any of these shows. Or any other shows that are only on the networks.

And with cable and satellite... guess what you're still paying for them... you're just paying for it twice. Once for the advertisements as you suggest and a second time to the provider so that you can see it on their service.

Hell, if you really think you're paying soooo much for these shows then maybe you should watch them. So, you'd rather screw off the money that you think you're spending.... that really does not make sense to me.



lrhorer said:


> That's because there isn't one. Other than PBS, there's almost nothing whatsoever worth watching OTA, yet the average consumer is forced to pay upwards of $2000 a year, whether they watch it, or not.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> I've tried it, but it's been a while. Have you used the latest TiVo utilities? They've upped the number of search engines from 5 to 9, and Wishlists now have boolean expressions with expanded targets. One can search by HD content, general keyword, title-only keyword, genre, etc. One can include one actor or director but exclude another actor or director (e.g. John Wayne + Maureen O'Hara, or John Wayne except directed by John Ford).
> 
> BEing specific might help.


DirecTV DVR has Boolean expressions as well. Sounds like Tivo recently added that one. Basically there isn't anything I can't do search wise on a HR that I couldn't do on a Tivo. But I think if you use pretty advanced wishlists Tivo will come out on top. Again, all depends on how you use it.



> No, not 50 million. There are only about 80 million subs total. I think the number of households with DVRs is around 20 million, but I haven't looked recently.


Last report I read last fall was that it was north of 40 million and should reach 50 million by end of 2009. I can't find the article right now though, the google is failing me. However, DirecTV alone has 18 million subs, half of which have a DVR according to their conference calls earlier this year. So just DirecTV alone has 8-9 million customers with DVR (of which I believe about 1.5 million are DirecTivo's). Cable combined has a lot more subs then DirecTV and Dish's DVR penetration is pretty high as well. 40 million certainly is easily attainable these days.



> Yes, but many people don't know what geat unknown things await them. Not having driven a Lexus, many people don't know what they are missing. Most people haven't tried a TiVo. OTOH, if you can't afford it, perhaps ignorance is bliss.


Perhaps. But you keep forgetting that the "unwashed masses" simply want to record American Idol and watch it or record Battlestar on Friday night because they are gong out. That's pretty much all they are looking for. So all these advanced wiz bang features from any of the DVR makers are more for the hardcore users and maybe someday Joe Sixpack will find a use for them. But most do not. Heck, almost every person I know has a DVR (only one of them has an actual Tivo, yet they all call them Tivo) and very few actually have stopped watching Live TV. Most still do because that's what they have been trained to do for 40 years. They use the DVR only to record something if they will be gone. I try to educate them to free themselves of this as I did nearly 10 years ago, but to them it's a foreign concept still. Maybe in the future...


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

magnus said:


> So, you are arguing that no one watches Lost, Heroes, Chuck, American Idol, Kings, My Name is Earl, the news, football, baseball, just to name a few.


No, just that they are not worth watching. They are a waste of time, even if they weren't horribly expensive. (That's a personal opinion. You are welcome to have a different one.) Keep naming shows, and admittedly you will eventually run across one or two that would be worth watching if they weren't so expensive.



magnus said:


> You can't seriously try to state that you don't watch any of these shows.


Of course I can! I have far better things to do. Note once again this does not include PBS, which I record often and watch as often as I can. I also support them. Of course, not every program on PBS is great, either. I've seen some pretty bad ones there.



magnus said:


> Or any other shows that are only on the networks.


I avoid watching network television whenever possible. Of course there's also a lot of junk on non-network television, and I avoid it, as well. Indeed, I am fairly happy to be paying to support the garbage, because I choose to support the content provider. With the networks I have no choice. It doesn't help the content itself is mostly low grade rubbish.



magnus said:


> And with cable and satellite... guess what you're still paying for them... you're just paying for it twice. Once for the advertisements as you suggest and a second time to the provider so that you can see it on their service.


I avoid watching advertising based programming on Cable, as well. HBO, Showtime, Starz, TMC, HDNet Movies, HDNet, etc. are not advertising based. I avoid TNT, WGN, etc. The main point, however, is the cost of CATV is a small fraction of that of network television.



magnus said:


> Hell, if you really think you're paying soooo much for these shows then maybe you should watch them. So, you'd rather screw off the money that you think you're spending.... that really does not make sense to me.


It's true, I am "wasting" the money which was stolen from me, and I'm not happy about that, either. It would be unethical - or at least ill considered - of me to make use of the services and then claim I am not receiving value from them. So instead I vote with the only direct means of voting available to me - I refuse to support them in any other way (including watching them) and exercise my right of free speech to remind everyone just how unbelievably expensive these so-called "free" services are. I of course reserve my right to express my opinion of how good or bad the content is of any program, regardless.

Oh, and I don't "think" I (and you) are paying so much. I know. The national networks by themselves sucked up $700 billion in advertising fees from vendors who advertise on their networks. Those fees are passed directly to the consumer. On average, 30% of every single item you purchase, from apples to zuchini and automobiles to zippers, is pure advertising cost, for most items by a wide margin network television advertising. (Fresh, un-packaged produce bears the lowest ad costs, and items typically shown on late night or non-network channels generally the most.)

The good news is the national networks' share of programming is dwindling fast. I realize how forlorn the hope would be, but with some luck the networks couild actually be forced (by economics) to shut down, or at least adopt PBS' business model. Yeah, I know, but I can dream, can't I?


----------



## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> > I avoid watching network television whenever possible.
> 
> 
> When is it NOT possible?
> ...


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shibby191 said:


> DirecTV DVR has Boolean expressions as well. Sounds like Tivo recently added that one.


'If you call over a year "recently". The point is, I took a look quite some months ago or so at the the DirecTV filters, and I judge TiVo's to be better. Admittedly, it's often a close race all the way around, as one might expect.



shibby191 said:


> Basically there isn't anything I can't do search wise on a HR that I couldn't do on a Tivo. But I think if you use pretty advanced wishlists Tivo will come out on top. Again, all depends on how you use it.


That's my point. In my estimation, the TiVo is superior. I'm not claiming the DirecTV DVRs are unusable or insufficient for some people's requirements, any more than the Chevy Impala is an undesirable vehicle. For the public at large, we're talkking "good" or perhaps "very good" vs. "better", but more expensive. For many of us individually, some of the features in "better" are critical. For others, not. That decision is precisely the one with which the OP is faced. For him (her?) it seems the service issues he has personally experienced are a deal-breaker for continuing DirecTV service. While clearly this has not been the case for millions of subscribers (including my sister), evidently it has been for him. He might wake up tomorrow feeling better and decide it hasn't been that bad, after all, or that the cost and hassle of moving to CATV / TiVo isn't worth it, after all.



shibby191 said:


> Last report I read last fall was that it was north of 40 million and should reach 50 million by end of 2009.


OK, it's really not that critical of an issue. If you like, I'll concede the point.



shibby191 said:


> Perhaps. But you keep forgetting that the "unwashed masses" simply want to record American Idol and watch it or record Battlestar on Friday night because they are gong out.


No, I'm not forgetting it. I'm expressing my personal opinion, which is irrelevant to the "unwashed masses". I believe the OP was asking for our opinions, although I suppose the opinion of the "unwashed masses" is also relevant to the OP's query, to whatever extent he is of a similar mind.



shibby191 said:


> That's pretty much all they are looking for. So all these advanced wiz bang features from any of the DVR makers are more for the hardcore users and maybe someday Joe Sixpack will find a use for them. But most do not.


But does their attitude match the OP's? While it is true the bulk of users don't make video a hobby, there are plenty who do, as any trip to a video store - or even Best Buy - will attest. There are plenty of $10,000 + video systems being sold. Perhaps more to the point, even most Joe Sixpacks prefer to know exactly what features are extant in the items they are considering purchasing so they can actively decide whether to be one of the "unwashed masses", or spend a little more for some of the more advanced features. What's more, some of the bells and whistles are extremely popular. Like large video monitors, it doesn't take people long to appreciate dual tuners, internet services, etc.



shibby191 said:


> Heck, almost every person I know has a DVR (only one of them has an actual Tivo, yet they all call them Tivo) and very few actually have stopped watching Live TV. Most still do because that's what they have been trained to do for 40 years.


Yeah, I know. People are often resistant to change, especially if it requires thinking about activities in a different way.



shibby191 said:


> They use the DVR only to record something if they will be gone. I try to educate them to free themselves of this as I did nearly 10 years ago, but to them it's a foreign concept still. Maybe in the future...


Good man! You're right. Most people treat the DVR as if it is simply a VCR on steroids. A proper DVR (not the Scientific Atanta 8300HD!!!) allows one to almost completely abandon the notion of time and channel. People are bound to the idea that "XXX comes on at 9:00 PM on channel 187". Other than news and weather, none of my programs come on at any time other than that when I have the time to sit down and feel like watching TV. I have no idea what time they came on, and I probably couldn't even guess at the channel without looking it up - and I really don't care anywhere nearly enough to look it up. Rather than looking at the DVR as a recording device, I see it as a time and channel independent filter which takes all the tons of garbage available to me and eliminates it, leaving only a much smaller, but still very large - list of much higher average quality programming. There are still some real corkers in the list, of course, but their numbers are in the dozens, rather than the tens of thousands.


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

mp11 said:


> So I guess you're trying to make us believe you dont watch the Superbowl, the World Series, the NBA championship, NCAA Final Four, college football's National Championship game, and all the hit shows past and present, like the CSIs, Frasier, Friends, and the list goes on...? Come on.


are you f*cking kidding? not everybody watches that garbage. haven't watched sports since I was 12. Network sitcoms are more predictible than bowel movements. My network watching consists of : The Simpsons. And even The Simpsons is getting terrible.

aside from myself, I can name dozens of friends/family/co-workers that don't watch network television. because it's boring/terrible/predictible/etc. it's "free" for a reason.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mp11 said:


> When is it NOT possible?


It's not usually terribly difficult.



shibby191 said:


> So I guess you're trying to make us believe you dont watch the Superbowl, the World Series, the NBA championship, NCAA Final Four, college football's National Championship game,


Why would I watch any of those? It would be a major waste of time, even if the practices of the institutions involved with them were not unethical in the extreme. Although my paralysis and poor physical condition prevents me from participating in any such sports, when I was younger if I wanted to be part of a game, I would go play the game, not sit around and watch it. Prior to graduating college, I played basketball, football, raquetball, and once in a while baseball. After entering the workforce, I played mostly team baseball, but I never watched sports. As I said, it would be a waste of time. The last game I watched was around 1978, I think. I even quit watching the Winter Olympics, some parts of which I used to enjoy, because they have become so corrupt. I haven't watched the Summer Olympics since 1972, and even then I didn't watch much.



shibby191 said:


> and all the hit shows past and present, like the CSIs, Frasier, Friends, and the list goes on...? Come on.


It was only after realizing how much the national networks were ripping us off that I stopped watching network television, so yes, I've watched lots of hit shows, from I love Lucy to ER. I never claimed I haven't watched them, only that I do not now. Note I don't comment upon a show without having seen it, so I do take a look at one or two episodes of most series simply so I have a base from which to comment. In spite of my objections, I consider this an ethical use of resources for which after all, I have already paid. I do not, however, make them a part of my viewing habits. If that makes me ethically deficient in that respect, then so be it, but I feel compelled to choose the most educated path.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Ok, fair enough. If you don't watch network TV at all then that's just surprising (to me). However, you are paying a lot not watch those channels as well.

I can remember when MTV was commercial free but now it's just sh**. So, I understand your point.



> I avoid watching advertising based programming on Cable, as well. HBO, Showtime, Starz, TMC, HDNet Movies, HDNet, etc. are not advertising based. I avoid TNT, WGN, etc. The main point, however, is the cost of CATV is a small fraction of that of network television.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Da Goon said:


> are you f*cking kidding? not everybody watches that garbage. haven't watched sports since I was 12. Network sitcoms are more predictible than bowel movements. My network watching consists of : The Simpsons. And even The Simpsons is getting terrible.
> 
> aside from myself, I can name dozens of friends/family/co-workers that don't watch network television. because it's boring/terrible/predictible/etc. it's "free" for a reason.


OK, stop beating around the bush and give us your opinion.


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## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

Da Goon said:


> > My network watching consists of : The Simpsons.
> 
> 
> Now why doesnt that surprise me?  That speaks volumes.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

magnus said:


> Ok, fair enough. If you don't watch network TV at all then that's just surprising (to me).


I try to watch as little as possible. As I said, I do take a look or two at a wide sampling of shows so I can stay abreast of what's on. Thus, I have seen CSI, Two and a Half Men, Lost, Survivor, The Amazing Race, House, The Dog Whisperer, The Apprentice, etc. I do not watch them on any ongoing basis.



magnus said:


> However, you are paying a lot not watch those channels as well.


Boy, don't I know it! It wouldn't be 1/10 as bad if I had a choice, or more correctly if I were paying them directly for the content. The problem is, I can't pull my subsidy of the programming no matter how terrible I think it is, or of how little use it is to me. Free enterprise demands that if I don't like a product or even just consider it to be not right for me, I don't buy it. Advertising supported entertainment avoids that altogether and forces us to pay them whether we like or use the product at all (which is why the networks love it).



magnus said:


> I can remember when MTV was commercial free but now it's just sh**. So, I understand your point.


OK, thanks - and I mean that. Think it over some. If you like, the next time you watch TV and come across a commercial, think of the fact it cost you probably $1 or more to sponsor that ad. Mark down all the ads on a piece of scratch paper and at the end of the evening see just how much that evening of TV watching cost you. Then multiply that by 365. Then think of who is getting all the money. If you still can stomach watching network TV, then it is your right, and I am not about to sit here and attempt to force you not to. For me, however, it is highly appropriate the theme line from the movie Network was, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it any more!"


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mp11 said:


> Now why doesnt that surprise me?  That speaks volumes.


For the record, although Da Goon and I apparently agree about the quality of network TV, I don't watch The Simpsons, either.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Hey, what's wrong with the quoting on this forum all of the sudden? It's gone whacky, adding an extra quote entry.

Edit: I take that back. For some reason, it seems to be mp11's posts which are a problem.


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## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

WOW. Its must be really sad to be that miserable about watching TV instead of relaxing and enjoying it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

I do relax and enjoy it, which is just another good reason not to watch Network TV. Perhaps you enjoy seeing someone getting insulted and them fired, or making a fool of themselves in pursuit of a wad of cash, or stabbing their same gender friends in the back while sleeping with every other member of the opposite gender, but such nonsense leaves me cold and depressed - or at least disgusted.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

But none of that is isolated to network TV.


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## SamRoza (Jun 21, 2006)

Having gone from DIrecTV/DirecTiVo service to cable with DVR service, I can definitely say that while DTV has it's drawbacks, Cable doesn't give me what I want in a TV provider.

Comcast who is the provider in my area has pretty good hardware and programming. It still doesn't hold a candle to DTV/TiVo service. I just canceled my Comcast service yesterday for new DTV service. I really couldn't handle the DVR any longer.

I had considered using a TiVo with my Comcast service, but the cost for a Series3 TIVO, the monthly service fee, the cost to upgrade the HDD, and the loss of the second tuner (except in certain areas where there is an analog feed as well as the digital feed, which is not in my area), made it a dealbreaker.

So I'll have DirecTV installed again in a few days and I'll have my familiar channels, hardware, service, and everything again. I'm excited to go back.


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## nycityuser (Dec 30, 2004)

I am perplexed why I just spent several minutes reading about people's dislike of television and what it offers in a board that discusses ways to consume _*television programming*_.

For the record, I love television and TIVO and that's why I peruse these forums.


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## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

SamRoza said:


> I had considered using a TiVo with my Comcast service, but the cost for a Series3 TIVO, the monthly service fee, the cost to upgrade the HDD, and the loss of the second tuner (except in certain areas where there is an analog feed as well as the digital feed, which is not in my area), made it a dealbreaker.


Umm, a series 3 Tivo is, by manufacture, a two tuner model. It doesn't matter if there is an analog feed or not. The series 3 relies on cablecards to provide two separate digital HD tuners.


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