# TiVo HD XL - 1 Terabyte, Glo Remote, THX @ $600



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

The press release won't hit the wires until the AM, but a variety of blog posts are up - including a dozen pics from yours truly.

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TiVo Unveils the Ultimate DVR for Digital Cable, Ready to
Record More HD Content than Ever

TiVo is launching something extra special at this year's CEDIA show, the TiVo HD XL, - a brand new premium DVR that comes with extra large recording capacity

Exclusive THX Certification Ensures Audio and Video Excellence

Alviso, CA -- September 04, 2008 - TiVo Inc., the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVRs), announced today the launch of the TiVo® HD XL Digital Video Recorder. Available online today, the TiVo HD XL box offers more recording capacity than any other DVR available, be it satellite or cable. Boasting 150 hours of high definition television recording capacity, the HD XL has enough space to appease even the most devoted entertainment fans. The TiVo HD XL is also THX® Certified to ensure it delivers accurate and exceptional sound and video playback in your home theater.

"With so much HD content now available, we felt it was vital to offer consumers an easy way to record as much television programming as they'd like to watch at a later time without ever having to worry about capacity," said Andrew Morrison, Director of Product Platforms at TiVo. "What is great about the XL is it gives content lovers plenty of room for all the programming they love, saving them from having to decide if they need to prematurely delete a favorite movie or a big game memory when space gets tight. Satellite or cable DVRs simply can't match it."

On top of increased recording capacity, the TiVo HD XL DVR offers all the innovative broadband features that TiVo lovers have grown accustomed and addicted to. Users can download thousands of movies & TV shows directly to the TV, browse and watch endless YouTube videos, listen to thousands of songs from Rhapsody, or view hundreds of music videos from Music Choice.

Features exclusive to TiVo HD XL include the 150 hours of HD recording space, THX certification, a Series3 premium backlit remote control and an included HDMI cable.

Similar to TiVo HD, dual tuners allow subscribers to record two different shows in HD at the same time, while watching a third pre-recorded show. The TiVo HD XL is designed to fit seamlessly into the most discerning home theater systems, compatible with HD digital cable, analog cable and over-the-air digital HD (ATSC).

As with the TiVo HD, the TiVo HD XL box delivers the best in high definition entertainment, allowing the consumer to experience TiVo's acclaimed service features, such as Season Pass™ recordings, Universal Swivel Search and WishList® searches, in sharp, vivid high definition images. Extensive video analysis and performance testing by THX ensures content will always record and playback at the maximum quality and resolution.

"TiVo pioneered the DVR category, and they are maintaining that position with the new high performance, high capacity TiVo HD XL," said Dr. Michael Rudd, Chief AV Architect at THX. "As more consumers adopt high definition programming, they will expect their recorded content to reflect the same level of quality and consistency as the original broadcasts. With a Terabyte hard drive, the TiVo HD XL lets users enjoy more HD movies, sports and other programs in high definition than ever before, and THX certification ensures that the quality is always superb."

The TiVo HD XL box joins the existing TiVo product line, and is available online today for $599.99 at www.tivo.com. Other retailers that will unveil TiVo HD XL as early as next week include Magnolia Home Theater, Amazon, and various other high-end retailers and customer installers.

This product will be shown at CEDIA in booth 1083 from 9/04/08 - 9/07/08.


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## EVizzle (Feb 13, 2005)

cool!


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

Funny, all they ever pushed was those 500Gb Certified TiVo approved external HDDs for how long now while we all asked for more ?


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## steinercat (Nov 16, 2007)

good stuff!

Anyone know what the difference between the WD10EVCS and the WD10EVVS that's in this XL?


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

And, here I was about ready to buy another....


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

http://gizmodo.com/5045207/tivo-hd-xl-review-the-same-great-tivo-taste-just-more-of-it

I was about to start a new thread, but saw this one in the suggestions.... it's amazing what I can miss sometimes.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

The software version is 658 instead of 652, so there may be other hardware changes under the hood.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

c3 said:


> The software version is 658 instead of 652, so there may be other hardware changes under the hood.


Where did you find that information? I'd be interested to read more on that. It would also be great if someone does a side-by-side in depth comparison of the hardware :


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## moldymac (Mar 27, 2006)

heres a post from Engadget about it with a picture


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Where did you find that information?


Here's the pic from the unit I had:










More here:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-09/tivo-hd-xl-unveiled-1tb-of-storage/


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I think this is great. I have a little UMF but with my HD and new Expander, I am just ducky.

This box will certainly help differentiate TiVo from all of the other DVR options out there, and the 1TB drive is a necessity going forward. Though from Dave's pics I see they used a WD Green power drive. Even so, I wonder how WD feels about this new box. For someone who was thinking about getting a TiVo HD and then maybe upgrading, either via internal or DVR Expander, I think it could cannibalize some WD Expander sales. Heck, you can get a refurb HD and upgrade the internal and add an expander for ~ the same money.

157 HD hours will satisfy the needs of a large % of TiVo users, IMHO. As wehave all discussed before, at some point, the software/hardware would need some tweaks to handle the volume of programs on there. Hell, what happens when someone has one of these beasts that is not yet on HD (not a lot of people, likely) and they are recording tons of SD material? There's over 1300 hours on there. How long does it take to index/reindex that info each time you go to the NPL.

All that aside (yeah, I'd rather have this then my combination, but I am ok with that), I think this is a move they *had* to make before the holiday shopping season gets into high gear. Sure, Tru2Way would be nice, but maybe we'll have our adapters soon (not an issue for me).

Good work TiVo. Keep it up!!!!

*[Edit]* Oh...and....RIP S3.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Also noticed that you can buy lifetime on these for $399.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

It's showing as "in stock" on Amazon already:

http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD65800...IOW/ref=sr_na_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1220534388&sr=1-2


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## doraemon (Sep 18, 2006)

EACS is 4 platter. EVVS is a 3 platter. I doubt there is much performance difference, though, since HDD speed wasn't exactly a bottleneck in the TivoHD anyway.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Cnet has a review up:

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...05-6474_7-33231115.html?tag=TOCcarouselArea.1

There is just so many things I wish to say about their article, but since I am at work, I cannot take the time.

They have some good lines. They have some bad lines. They have some inaccurate lines, and they have some laughable lines.

I'll just give you a laughable line, with bold added by me for emphasis of the laughable part:



> Unfortunately, you'll also have to schedule an installation with your cable company for the CableCard(s). We're still not sure why this can't be a do-it-yourself process too, because *the only thing the tech has to do is slide the cards in and make sure they're up and running*. Our local Time Warner tech had things set up in less than an hour.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jlb said:


> I'll just give you a laughable line, with bold added by me for emphasis of the laughable part:


They are actually correct, as long as the correct numbers are read and the person on the other side of the phone knows what they're doing.

The TiVoHD XL looks interesting, and certainly a lot better price-wise than the Series 3, with this capacity already built in. I can't imagine we'll be seeing a lot of people trying to decide between this and the Series 3 at least.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

yah, I find thi questionable


> The bottom line:
> The TiVo HD XL charges a hefty premium for its spacious recording capacity and THX certification, but most users will be content sticking to the all-but-identical standard TiVo HD DVR.


a TiVo HD wholesale for 250 and a low price 1TB drive for 150$ = 400$ 
so a retail TiVo HDXL price of $600 does not seem hefty to me at all. I expect I will find this for 450$ by winter and buy one, forgoing the need to swap drives and so forth.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yah, I find thi questionable
> 
> a TiVo HD wholesale for 250 and a low price 1TB drive for 150$ = 400$
> so a retail TiVo HDXL price of $600 does not seem hefty to me at all.


Especially when you consider that it comes with the upgraded remote and an HDMI cable. I don't think it's hefty at all either - it's $100 LESS than what dvrupgrade.com charges for their 1TB TiVoHD.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Good points.

In the "Cons" section of Cnet's review, they list "Must program 30-second commercial skip".

I have to believe TiVo will get them to update that and take out the "commercial skip".


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

Can someone more home media savvy than me explain what getting THX certified entails? Is there additional hardware in the box to facilitate THX audio, or is it merely a "hey come look to see if our box is good enough to be certified" sort of deal with an associated per-box-sold fee?

If the hardware is all the same, my Tivo HD box should theoretically produce the same quality sound, just without being "verified" to be good.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

doraemon said:


> EACS is 4 platter. EVVS is a 3 platter.


EACS-00D6B0 has 3 platters.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

webin said:


> Can someone more home media savvy than me explain what getting THX certified entails? Is there additional hardware in the box to facilitate THX audio, or is it merely a "hey come look to see if our box is good enough to be certified" sort of deal with an associated per-box-sold fee?


That's pretty much it. It's a standard, used for marketing. Probably doesn't perform differently than your existing TiVoHD.


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## stream (Jul 25, 2007)

I paid $210 for my TiVo HD, plus $160 for a 1 TB WD10EVCS = $370.

Even paying $300 list for the THD = $460. 

I don't think glo remote, THX, and HDMI cable ($10 at monoprice) is worth $140 - $230.


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## doraemon (Sep 18, 2006)

I stand corrected.  I thought the EACS was the older 4-platter design (looks different from the outside). Didn't realize the newer 3-platter design is also designated as EACS.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

webin said:


> Can someone more home media savvy than me explain what getting THX certified entails? Is there additional hardware in the box to facilitate THX audio, or is it merely a "hey come look to see if our box is good enough to be certified" sort of deal with an associated per-box-sold fee?
> 
> If the hardware is all the same, my Tivo HD box should theoretically produce the same quality sound, just without being "verified" to be good.


THX certification is real and not just some per box marketing deal. You do pay them to do the cert of course.

There is no specific THX hardware, but the certification is based on the hardwre doing the work have certain performance specs adn then some tests to see that the end result nmatches the specs.

I suspect the original TiVo HD could get a cert as well or at least be so darn close as to not be human audibly different.
TiVo probably just had the time to get the "TiVo HDXL" actually through the cert process versus getting the TiVo HD out the door and not waiting for THX cert.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo probably just had the time to get the "TiVo HDXL" actually through the cert process versus getting the TiVo HD out the door and not waiting for THX cert.


I also believe they wanted at the time to maintain the Series 3 as the only THX certified unit to differentiate between them and justify the higher price, just like they do now with the TiVo HDXL.


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## KraziJoe (Nov 30, 2007)

Unless I am missing something, I don't see why this needed to come out. Is THX a $300 upgrade from the Current offerings? A pretty remote and a HDMI cable are not very enticing, though if one is not handy with DIY projects putting a 1TB drive in the HD might seem daunting enough to get this. 
There has to be something under the hood for future upgrades that makes this justifiable. 
With the economy the way it is and TIVO losing money, it just does not make much sense to push this out the door.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

KraziJoe said:


> Unless I am missing something, I don't see why this needed to come out. Is THX a $300 upgrade from the Current offerings? A pretty remote and a HDMI cable are not very enticing, though if one is not handy with DIY projects putting a 1TB drive in the HD might seem daunting enough to get this.
> There has to be something under the hood for future upgrades that makes this justifiable.
> With the economy the way it is and TIVO losing money, it just does not make much sense to push this out the door.


This makes perfect sense. More people are getting HD and want to record more, but don't feel comfortable doing the upgrade themselves.
I can't imagine this cost TiVo Inc very much money to develop, basically just upgrade the existing unit.


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

I think it's a perfect price point to introduce the new box. This isn't a "standard everyone owns" box, this is the deluxe model, and I think the starting price positions it perfectly.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Especially when you consider that it comes with the upgraded remote and an HDMI cable.


The HDMI cable is worth something only if you would have been suckered into paying for a Monster brand HDMI. Otherwise it's $5-10.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DrewTivo said:


> The HDMI cable is worth something only if you would have been suckered into paying for a Monster brand HDMI. Otherwise it's $5-10.


Yes, but it still adds value and convenience. It's not a reason to buy the HDXL of course, but it's another thing to consider when saying the unit is not overpriced.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

stream said:


> I paid $210 for my TiVo HD, plus $160 for a 1 TB WD10EVCS = $370.
> 
> Even paying $300 list for the THD = $460.
> 
> I don't think glo remote, THX, and HDMI cable ($10 at monoprice) is worth $140 - $230.


I don't think the primary market for this is people who are ready to buy a 1TB drive and install it themselves.

A better comparison would be that a 500GB DVR expander costs $150, so instead of paying $450 for a THD plus a 500GB expander, you pay $600 for a 1 TB tivo (with the extras).


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## naclone (Feb 12, 2002)

so with TiVo enabling support for external drives and now releasing an official product with 1TB of internal storage, is it safe to say now that it's completely negligent on their part not to offer some way for us to organize hundreds of hours of programs by parameters other than alpha and date recorded?

I've tried to be patient in waiting for some kind of software update that allows for creating folders and customizing the NPL or at the vary least just being allowed to folder things by search parameters that already exist like say, MOVIES and gave them the benefit of the doubt because the added storage wasn't native to the box. 

well now, it's in the box and i think that means you need to allow us some flexibility in organizing it. this is literally years overdue.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I also believe they wanted at the time to maintain the Series 3 as the only THX certified unit to differentiate between them and justify the higher price, just like they do now with the TiVo HDXL.


Yah, that could be as well.

as for cost overall - well 450 works for me as I include a premium for my time not spent doing the upgrade.

bear in mind as well a large target for this box is Home Theaters installers who will like they can put in a HDXL and tell the customer it is THX cert. and everything is stock as is out of the box and warranty with TiVo is solid.


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## Rwood (Apr 19, 2003)

Scanning this thread and a couple of articles, I don't see any mention of SDV. If it isn't build in, it is useless in Hawaii until the long promised adapters are available.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

KraziJoe said:


> Unless I am missing something, I don't see why this needed to come out. Is THX a $300 upgrade from the Current offerings?


No, but the bigger hard drive and S3 remote are.



KraziJoe said:


> A pretty remote and a HDMI cable are not very enticing


It's not just pretty. Indeed, I don't know it's all that much prettier than the THD remote, but it is definitely superior, with the exception of battery life. Since it is often used in the dark, a backlighted remote is definitely a plus. More importantly, however, the feel in the hand is much superior, the buttons are easier to find and manage by feel, and the layout is better. It's definitely a better remote. An HDMI cable does not cost $300, of course, and neither does a remote or a hard drive, but put them all together and you're stating to get closer to the $300 retail mark. Early adopters will always pay more, and I expect the price of the XL will drop to the $400 - $450 range, making it a very reasonable step up for the average person. I think it's a great move for TiVo.



KraziJoe said:


> though if one is not handy with DIY projects putting a 1TB drive in the HD might seem daunting enough to get this.


'Or just not wanting to risk a voided warranty. I must admit I had to take a breath before hacking my $1000 (with lifetime service) Series III. Hacking a $250 unit is less daunting, and changing a hard drive is about as innocuous as hacking gets (indeed, I hesitate to call it "hacking" at all), but a lot of people don't trust themselves with a screwdriver.



KraziJoe said:


> There has to be something under the hood for future upgrades that makes this justifiable.
> With the economy the way it is and TIVO losing money, it just does not make much sense to push this out the door.


I diagree entirely. I think it's a great marketing move. The chassis looks the same, and I'll bet the innards are, as well, so TiVo gets to sell a low end and a high end unit without any re-tooling or any significant amount of additional materials. This makes the product line more appealing to the casual user as well as the TV addict, and costs them nothing. Moving forward, they can offer services on the high end platform that are either not available on the low end platform, or better yet, charge a small fee to add the services to the low end platform. The high end users feel good about their purchase, and the low end user doesn't have to buy the additional service if it doesn't appeal to them.

It's pretty much a no-lose proposition, just like offering both standard and custom features on automobiles.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Rwood said:


> Scanning this thread and a couple of articles, I don't see any mention of SDV. If it isn't build in, it is useless in Hawaii until the long promised adapters are available.


It's not possible to build it in until a standard is developed for bidirectional hosts.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

MickeS said:


> Especially when you consider that it comes with the upgraded remote and an HDMI cable. I don't think it's hefty at all either - it's $100 LESS than what dvrupgrade.com charges for their 1TB TiVoHD.


Good point. As of early this morning; we lowered the price of our upgraded 1TB TiVo HD units to $549. There is still a coupon code active for a free glo-remote, and one for a free HDMI cable, as well (well $.01 for the cable). Our warranty is better, too.


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

Do you have any coupons to add a Free THX certification to your units? 

Just kidding, keep of the good work out there.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

webin said:


> Do you have any coupons to add a Free THX certification to your units?
> 
> Just kidding, keep of the good work out there.


I'd be happy to draw the logo on the box. 

Seriously, though, my understanding is that there is no difference in the underlying hardware at all, its just that TiVo paid to have the box certified and can use the THX branding etc, as a result of the certification having been made.

If I'm wrong about that, someone please let me know, but this is what I was told by my support contact.


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

That's pretty much how I understand it too.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tivoupgrade said:


> I'd be happy to draw the logo on the box.
> 
> Seriously, though, my understanding is that there is no difference in the underlying hardware at all, its just that TiVo paid to have the box certified and can use the THX branding etc, as a result of the certification having been made.
> 
> If I'm wrong about that, someone please let me know, but this is what I was told by my support contact.


When you record the sound in digital what comes in goes out, the real THX standard starts with the making of the program (Movies mostly) (I don't think any TV shows have THX sound ) When HBO sends out a THX movie and the cable co xmites it to you; you have to hope that the sound was not compressed in any way, than you will have the THX sound coming out of any HD TiVo. Going to your house sound system is the big loss as I don't think many people pay for a THX sound room in their homes (That room has to have the correct Amp, speakers, layout of the room and speakers etc) (Some movie theaters do pay for a THX sound room to show their THX movies)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

tivoupgrade said:


> Good point. As of early this morning; we lowered the price of our upgraded 1TB TiVo HD units to $549. There is still a coupon code active for a free glo-remote, and one for a free HDMI cable, as well (well $.01 for the cable). Our warranty is better, too.


Cool. Capitalism at its best.  :up:


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Don't know for sure, but the THX cert. not only verifies that the Tivo properly handles a THX signal, it also verifies that the unit itself is quiet enough to put in your home theater so you don't have to hide it away in some closet.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> Since it is often used in the dark, a backlighted remote is definitely a plus.


If the tivo remote weren't so well designed this point would carry more weight. But I can literally "do it in the dark".


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> THX certification is real and not just some per box marketing deal. You do pay them to do the cert of course.
> 
> There is no specific THX hardware, but the certification is based on the hardwre doing the work have certain performance specs adn then some tests to see that the end result nmatches the specs.
> 
> ...


The audio syncing from all my TiVoHD boxes is not like from my S3 boxes. The audio from my S3 boxes come up in a split second, while my TiVoHD boxes takes 1 to two seconds. Something is different between them.

But even with THX certification, a $300 retail premium isn't worth it for me when I can upgrade the TiVoHD to a 1TB drive myself for $130. But for someone that doesn't want to open up their TiVo, $300 isn't too bad, especially if they don't already have the glo remote.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> The audio syncing from all my TiVoHD boxes is not like from my S3 boxes. The audio from my S3 boxes come up in a split second, while my TiVoHD boxes takes 1 to two seconds. Something is different between them.


 definitely the hardware for audio is diffeent between an S3 and a Tivo HD. I am just saying a TiVo HD could probably be THX certified if TiVo wanted to go that route.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> It's not possible to build it in until a standard is developed for bidirectional hosts.


I don't know enough to disagree with you. I'm waiting on TWC in my area to do the testing on the tuning resolver.

But I just saw this regarding CEDIA:
"Panasonic stole the thunder from the other big guys by introducing the first fully working Tru2Way TVs that will supposedly do away with cable boxes forever. The Tru2Way technology, developed with Cable-Labs, the cable industrys technology development group, also replaces the disappointing cable card as a way to have cable channels, pay per view and other on demand features built into the TV itself. Funai and LG have agreed to the standard but have not introduced TVs with the Tru2Way technology built-in. "

So does that mean we could be close to having a TiVo with Tru2Way?


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

jacksonian said:


> So does that mean we could be close to having a TiVo with Tru2Way?


I hope so. Cablecards can be a nightmare .


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

steve614 said:


> Don't know for sure, but the THX cert. not only verifies that the Tivo properly handles a THX signal, it also verifies that the unit itself is quiet enough to put in your home theater so you don't have to hide it away in some closet.


My TiVo Series3 is louder than my TiVo HD... 



jacksonian said:


> So does that mean we could be close to having a TiVo with Tru2Way?


In the quarterly call Rogers implied we won't see such a solution in the near-term.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

davezatz said:


> In the quarterly call Rogers implied we won't see such a solution in the near-term.


Not doubting, but just wondering why not? If Panny can make a TV that works using Tru2Way already, why can't TiVo make a DVR using it? I'm sure there's a good reason, else it would be a no brainer. Just wondering.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

jacksonian said:


> Not doubting, but just wondering why not? If Panny can make a TV that works using Tru2Way already, why can't TiVo make a DVR using it? I'm sure there's a good reason, else it would be a no brainer. Just wondering.


Panasonic doesn't have to integrate an entire OS and separate interface the way TiVo does. Panasonic is also a larger company with more resources and can experiment with early technology. Sounds like TiVo wants to watch and wait a bit. (Panasonic has had some setbacks and is behind schedule, FYI: http://www.ipdemocracy.com/archives/2008/06/10/#003012)


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

They probably can make one but when would it be ready? IN 13 or 14 months?


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

davezatz said:


> Panasonic doesn't have to integrate an entire OS and separate interface the way TiVo does. Panasonic is also a larger company with more resources and can experiment with early technology. Sounds like TiVo wants to watch and wait a bit. (Panasonic has had some setbacks and is behind schedule, FYI: http://www.ipdemocracy.com/archives/2008/06/10/#003012)


Thanks for the info. My local TWC has added a ton of HD channels, but we've been hit hard with SDV. My contact says they should begin testing the tuning resolvers "shortly" and pending the success of those trials hopefully begin rollout in the next few months. That will hold me over until everything gets sorted out.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

stream said:


> I paid $210 for my TiVo HD, plus $160 for a 1 TB WD10EVCS = $370.
> 
> Even paying $300 list for the THD = $460.
> 
> I don't think glo remote, THX, and HDMI cable ($10 at monoprice) is worth $140 - $230.


The TiVo HD list price is $299 and you will not see it selling for that price many places. I would imagine the price of the TiVo HD XL will drop after a few months as well. So the price difference is not that unreasonable given the cost of the drive. Not everyone has the expertise to install a 1TB drive so you are going to have to pay for this cost.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Panasonic doesn't have to integrate an entire OS and separate interface the way TiVo does. Panasonic is also a larger company with more resources and can experiment with early technology. Sounds like TiVo wants to watch and wait a bit. (Panasonic has had some setbacks and is behind schedule, FYI: http://www.ipdemocracy.com/archives/2008/06/10/#003012)


Yeah, sadly TiVo has a tough time being on the forefront of new technology, which makes it even more astounding that they're still around, IMO. 

Matsu****a (parent company of Panasonic) was ranked the 59th largest company in the world in 2007, according to Wikipedia. So they can tale a few risks here and there that TiVo can't afford. Hopefully they can work out some of the kinks with the technology and let TiVo reap the benefits.


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## beejpowers (Sep 29, 2004)

steve614 said:


> Don't know for sure, but the THX cert. not only verifies that the Tivo properly handles a THX signal, it also verifies that the unit itself is quiet enough to put in your home theater so you don't have to hide it away in some closet.


There is no "THX signal" All THX is, is a certification standard.
For anyone who lives in a state where the gov't regulates your cars emissions, think of it like this:
They hook the car up to the computer adn runn the engine at say 2000 RPM and 5000 RPM and measure the exhaust output at those speeds. Each car has a different size engine, fuel type and oxygen mixture. The computer is told what type of car it's testing and then compares the output exhaust percentages (CO2, CO, etc...) to what is "passable"

Same thing with THX certs: they hook up a piece of gear (A/V Receiver, Speaker, Tivo, etc...) to the appropriate meters and test it's outputs. They look for power handling, total harmonic distortion, cooling noise, and other things. If it can be quiet and fill a XX cubic foot room with YY dB of sound at ZZ viewing angle, it gets certified. In AVR gear they have broken it into sub-categories of certification. THX is the old version actually. Now it's Ultra, Ultra 2 and Select. Basically Large, medium and small room handling.

I don't think there are any THX cert TVs out there, tell me if I'm wrong, but in an ideal world, for you to actually have a THX experience, you'd need a THX DVD/BD in a THX player feeding a THX AVR, pumping out to THX speakers over THX cables and a THX TV in a THX certified room. Any one component in that chain not being certified makes the whole thing kaput

Don't get me wrong, having anything certified means that it is HIGH quality. But lots of components are, they just keep the cost down by not sending their stuff to the Presidio.


----------



## jeffdoering (Dec 1, 2003)

steinercat said:


> good stuff!
> 
> Anyone know what the difference between the WD10EVCS and the WD10EVVS that's in this XL?


I don't _know_ for sure (couldn't find anything on WD site); but a few hits from hardware vendors list the WD10EVVS part as special order with an 8MB cache (versus 16MB for the EVCS). Other specs appear the same as the WD10EVCS (7200 RPM, SATAII, 1TB, etc). It also gets listed with the same "AV-GP" branding name.

My guess is that Tivo is just saving a few buck by getting the same drive with a smaller cache.

-Jeff


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

beejpowers said:


> Same thing with THX certs: they hook up a piece of gear (A/V Receiver, Speaker, Tivo, etc...) to the appropriate meters and test it's outputs. They look for power handling, total harmonic distortion, cooling noise, and other things. If it can be quiet and fill a XX cubic foot room with YY dB of sound at ZZ viewing angle, it gets certified. In AVR gear they have broken it into sub-categories of certification. THX is the old version actually. Now it's Ultra, Ultra 2 and Select. Basically Large, medium and small room handling.


How does that explain how some software and movies can be THX certified? For example I have a PS3 game that pops up the THX logo at startup.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

AFAIK, THX certification also requires a certain quality when encoding analog signals.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

davezatz said:


> My TiVo Series3 is louder than my TiVo HD...
> 
> In the quarterly call Rogers implied we won't see such a solution in the near-term.


The way I hear it is the Cox Tivo port for the Motorola dvr's are a Tru2way solution, so it it could be sooner than you think.

comcast info, but cox should be the same

http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2008/01/22/comcast-begins-offering-tivo-service-subscribers


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

beejpowers said:


> For anyone who lives in a state where the gov't regulates your cars emissions, think of it like this:
> They hook the car up to the computer and run the engine at say 2000 RPM and 5000 RPM and measure the exhaust output at those speeds. Each car has a different size engine, fuel type and oxygen mixture. The computer is told what type of car it's testing and then compares the output exhaust percentages (CO2, CO, etc...) to what is "passable"


Don't know about other states, but here in California, the "smog certification" also requires that certain gizmos be present and functional (the oxygen level sensor comes to mind), depending on the model. No matter how low your emissions, if the specified gizmos are not present and functional, you fail the test. I think the THX certification doesn't comparable requirements.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

tivoupgrade said:


> and one for a free HDMI cable, as well (well $.01 for the cable).


That's price gouging!!!


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

DrewTivo said:


> If the tivo remote weren't so well designed this point would carry more weight. But I can literally "do it in the dark".


So can I, mostly, but I occasionally am glad for the backlight, especially when searching for the "Info" key. It's not one I use too much, and it;s easily confused with the "Live TV" button. Accidentally hitting "Live TV" rather than "Info" is a real pain, especially when using an HMO application like pyTiVo, or an HME application like tivostream, and particularly if one is a couple of directories deep in the structure.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

jacksonian said:


> So does that mean we could be close to having a TiVo with Tru2Way?


Who knows? As far as I am concerned, who cares? Tru2way will not under any circumstances allow you to record a PPV or VOD event, and there is nothing other than scheduled SDV content currently offered I care significantly about in any case. Having a TiVo makes almost all VOD services irrelevant in the first place, and I virtually never watched PPV events even when I worked for the CATV company and could get any ones I wanted for $1.99 each. If the local CATV provider comes up with some must-have interactive services, I'll get one of their STBs and route its output to one of the other inputs of one of my TV sets.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

FWIW, TiVo has never released their specific specs with regard to THX Certification. But here is a fairly good article about THX Certification and the reference levels THX certified equipment must meet in both audio and video. It's a little dated now, but likely to be close to what they're using today. (Advance apologies for the extended scrolling requirements. )



> *Metrics Tested on THX Controllers*:
> 
> Reference Output Voltage
> Voltage Gain
> ...


 Of course everyone has to make up their own mind (using their eyes and ears) if meeting those standards are worth it or "worthless". All of our HT components are THX Certified right down to the speaker wire (OCD ) but quite honestly I've watched THX Certified movies elsewhere and heard and seen as good or better coming from equipment w/o Mr. Lucas' coveted logo...YMMV.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

slimoli said:


> I hope so. Cablecards can be a nightmare .


<sigh> Is there no end to the misaprehensions on this topic? I don't know why anyone thinks tru2way is independent of CableCards. It isn't. By law, every device deigned to interface with a CATV system *INCLUDING THEIR OWN DVRs and STBs* must have CableCards in them. Tru2Way will not in any shape or form eliminate CableCards. Tru2way is a CableCard based set of protocols, and every tru2way set will have CableCards, including any tru2way DVR.

The CATV industry does want to propose and ratify a non-CableCard, software based separable security system, but even that will not eliminate CableCards in 3rd party devices. For the foreseeable future, *EVERY* receiver attached to a CATV system will have CableCards installed.

Note also that until tru2way is a ratified standard, there is no guarantee a tru2way device will work as a bidirectional host or be accepted as such by your local CATV system. It might not even tune regular SDV channels. The number of systems in which it doesn't work should be small, however, as all the major CATV equipment manufacturers are moving toward tru2way. Since there is no standard, however, if you buy a tru2way box, and it doesn't work or the CATV installer refuses to hook it up, you have little or no recourse. Your local CATV company is not at this point in time required by law to support any 3rd party tru2way system (or any tru2way system at all, for that matter). I don't even know if membership in CableLabs will compel them by agreement to support any CableLabs certified device outside of FCC regulations - none of which at this point cover 2-way hosts.


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## ellinj (Feb 26, 2002)

I wonder if mrv and ttg performance will be better then the tivohd. It was pretty decent on my s3, but the tivohd was pretty bad.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

They have a THX certified door.

Hands-on with the THX-certified QuietHome door


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## MsRoboto (Oct 12, 2003)

Does this unit support M-Cards?


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> They have a THX certified door.
> 
> Hands-on with the THX-certified QuietHome door


Oh sure...now I have to replace my freaking HT door! Where will it end?! Thanks...thanks a LOT! Aurgh!


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## beejpowers (Sep 29, 2004)

morac said:


> How does that explain how some software and movies can be THX certified? For example I have a PS3 game that pops up the THX logo at startup.


Because the media was certified to output certain whtie, black and color levels and reference level audio... but it doesn't mean your TV and stereo are setup right to make it a "THX experience"


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

jacksonian said:


> replaces the disappointing cable card as a way to have cable channels,


What is disappointing about the cable card is the cable cos. effort to stifle it. I'm entirely happy with the cable card in my tivo. What upsets me is that there are no tvs with cable card slots anymore because the cable cos. basically eliminated all demand for it several years ago.

Does tru2way offer something better than cable card? Sure. But cablecards are and were a great product that were killed by the greed of cable cos. and their box manufacturers.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

richsadams said:


> Oh sure...now I have to replace my freaking HT door! Where will it end?! Thanks...thanks a LOT! Aurgh!


I love it. Seriously, that would be perfect for my family room!


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

True2Way may make cablecards easier though, as they could communicate their status back, rather than having to read a set of numbers back over the phone.


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## Evilmonkee (Sep 8, 2007)

At $600, I think it's a bit of a rip-off.

I dunno, I use my Tivo HD w/expander a lot and have never had to deal with storage space issues. I just don't get it. Do people just like to fill up their drives and never actually watch anything?

Personally(and this is all my personal opinion of course), I could care less about the glowy remote. I have a Harmony One that is a thousand times better than any remote that Tivo is going to include.

THX cert. Pthbthbthbthb. lame.

HDMI cable? WOOoooOOooooo! 

That's it? So $325 more for 1TB of storage?

There is one thing they could have done that would have made this Tivo worthy of the XL and the jacked up price. They should have doubled up the tuners with the ability of two M-Cards. That would put it on par with ATT's U-Verse DVR that can record up to 4 channels. (Personally, I see this as overkill, but can see it being handy for a family).

There is no innovation with the XL. They simply just slapped in a larger HD(THX cert. is worthless) and doubled the price. And everybody is doing a song and dance. I don't get it.

Seriously, for the people who need to record 150HD/1300SD hours...go the frak outside once in a while for cripes sakes!

Flame away!


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## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

Evilmonkee said:


> At $600, I think it's a bit of a rip-off.
> 
> I dunno, I use my Tivo HD w/expander a lot and have never had to deal with storage space issues. I just don't get it. Do people just like to fill up their drives and never actually watch anything?
> 
> ...


No flames here. I have to agree completely with everything you said.

It seems like a ripoff.

Dennis


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Evilmonkee said:


> At $600, I think it's a bit of a rip-off.
> 
> I dunno, I use my Tivo HD w/expander a lot and have never had to deal with storage space issues. I just don't get it. Do people just like to fill up their drives and never actually watch anything?
> 
> ...


1. U-Verse DVR can't record 2 HD channels at the same time.
2. I agree it would have been cool to have added more tuners.
3. Ridiculing people for recording too much TV is so 1999.


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

Adding tuners = more development time and expense to reconfigure the hardware platform. Adding a bigger hard drive is a quick and easy way to deliver a product the high-end tivo users can make good use of.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Evilmonkee said:


> Seriously, for the people who need to record 150HD/1300SD hours...go the frak outside once in a while for cripes sakes!


I go outside plenty thankyouverymuch.

One thing bigger capacity gives me is the ability to keep more stored long term w/o needed to move it to dvds etc.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Evilmonkee said:


> Seriously, for the people who need to record 150HD/1300SD hours...go the frak outside once in a while for cripes sakes!


2 weeks of Olympics from just one NBC channel would fill up the 1TB.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

c3 said:


> 2 weeks of Olympics from just one NBC channel would fill up the 1TB.


Sure, but do you want to keep watching the olympics all Fall? The only way to watch was to record a bunch of it and then pick and choose each day/night as time allowed. Sports, unlike wine, don't get better with time.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

That's just an example showing that 1TB can be used up quickly. Having enough storage allows you more freedom in choosing what to record and when to watch.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Evilmonkee said:


> ... They should have doubled up the tuners with the ability of two M-Cards. That would put it on par with ATT's U-Verse DVR that can record up to 4 channels. (Personally, I see this as overkill, but can see it being handy for a family)....
> 
> Flame away!


I beleive each M-card can support up to SIX streams. (might be four- i'm not certain but it is MORE than 2 for sure)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

not sure what's with all the haters.

if you think it's too expensive wait 2 months and it will be a pile cheaper.

Might even be that in a matter of months they just ditch the plain tivo HD with it's 160gb drive and the xl becomes the standard at the current HD price.

do you folks complain when they put more horsepower in cars- 
they all go 65 mph just fine- "how fast do you need to go". 

Do you complain when intel and amd make new chips all the time- " every pc for the past 5 years runs MS office and browses just fine". 

Do you complain at larger tv's? etc, etc, etc.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> not sure what's with all the haters.


Every time TiVo increases/decreases prices, adds/removes products/options, etc., there are people who complain, like TiVo is forcing people to do something.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

c3 said:


> Every time TiVo increases/decreases prices, adds/removes products/options, etc., there are people who complain, like TiVo is forcing people to do something.


i get that behavior whrn it happens- but this is just an OPTION.

and nothing has been taken away becasue of this addition. People can still buy plain HD's. The software isn't getting changed. Nothing is removed from the box. it's not like a price increase for all, or a new ad spot on the box, it's just a choice for those that might want it.

It's a larger hard drive for crying out loud for people that want it.

It's like complaining that you bought a 42 inch plasma and now they make a 50 inch also...

Very odd...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> It's like complaining that you bought a 42 inch plasma and now they make a 50 inch also...


People complain every time TiVo does something. It's just a fact of life.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

richsadams said:


> Oh sure...now I have to replace my freaking HT door! Where will it end?! Thanks...thanks a LOT! Aurgh!


But you've already purchased the THX certified toilet, right?


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## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

DrewTivo said:


> Sure, but do you want to keep watching the olympics all Fall? The only way to watch was to record a bunch of it and then pick and choose each day/night as time allowed. Sports, unlike wine, don't get better with time.


I still have Super Bowl XLII on my S3. Watching the Giants trounce the Pats does, indeed, get better every time I watch it - especially the final drive where I still expect Eli to get sacked, Tyree to drop that pass and Burress to get called for an offensive push-off on the winning touchdown.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

classicsat said:


> True2Way may make cablecards easier though, as they could communicate their status back, rather than having to read a set of numbers back over the phone.


Oh yeah, absolutely, although actually I think the numbers will still get read through the phone. They'll know immediately if something got keyed in wrong, however. It also may help tremendously to eliminate the finger-pointing when an install has problems.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

I see they managed to butcher the Tru2way interface between CES 2008 :up: and CEDIA 2008 :down: What happened? Did they fire their software people? EDIT: It appears it depends on the manufacturer or the content provider as to what interface is used... Sony :up: and Samsung :up: On Demand comparison: :down: vs :up:

(_click on the thumbs up and thumbs down_)


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## ericlhyman (May 19, 2001)

Is a Tivo Series 4 still expected in early 2009? Does this still have the series 3 limitation that precludes Pay Per View from Verizon Fios?

Are 2 cable cards required?


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

ericlhyman said:


> Is a Tivo Series 4 still expected in early 2009? Does this still have the series 3 limitation that precludes Pay Per View from Verizon Fios?
> 
> Are 2 cable cards required?


The TiVo Series 4 might be shown as a prototype at CES in January but don't expect it to go on sale until summer at the earliest. As a Tru2way device it will be able to access On Demand content and tune channels on systems using SDV.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Evilmonkee said:


> At $600, I think it's a bit of a rip-off.


That's a bit strong. People who like to be early adopters are willing to pay a premium for it and the manufacturers are compelled to take advantage of the situation in order to recap some of their development costs and capital expenditures. It's not the most wonderful situation on Earth, but it's neither underhanded nor unethical. It's just the way things are in a less than perfect world. It's also far from the worst thing in this less than perfect world.



Evilmonkee said:


> I dunno, I use my Tivo HD w/expander a lot and have never had to deal with storage space issues. I just don't get it. Do people just like to fill up their drives and never actually watch anything?


'Fact is, I watch too much television, but I have a 500G THD, a 1T S3, a 2T S3, and a 7T video server, all of them full or nearly full. It's not about how much TV I watch, it's about how rich my choice of what to watch when I, my family, or friends want to sit down and watch a program. Last night one of my friends came over and after dinner we sat and watched two episodes of The Outer Limits I hadn't watched in a couple of years, then we watched Them, which as it happens I had watched with my brother and sister at Christmas time. Tonight I'm thinking of watching a film I haven't seen in a very long time - Top Gun.



Evilmonkee said:


> Personally(and this is all my personal opinion of course), I could care less about the glowy remote. I have a Harmony One that is a thousand times better than any remote that Tivo is going to include.


Yes, but because it is not of any additional value to you does not mean it is not of additional value to others, and the fact mitigates the cost from being a rip-off. Personally, I have considered getting a Harmony or similar remote, and I have used such devices, albeit admittedly much less capable ones, in the past. There are some problems which prevent me from going that route, however:


I have multiple rooms with video systems. Buying multiple Harmony One remotes gets expensive fast.
Many of the devices in my systems are not universal remote friendly. Instead of assigning a single function to a button they assign toggle functions to the button, most frequently a toggle power button rather than separate power on and power off buttons. While saving remote real-estate, it means any missed keypress puts the system into an invalid state from which there is probably no simple recovery from the universal remote.
Although the Harmony One seems to have a ton of features and lots of flexibility, I have yet to ever take a universal remote out of the box without discovering it wouldn't support at least one featire of at least one device in the system, so I'm back to having multiple remotes laying around.



Evilmonkee said:


> THX cert. Pthbthbthbthb. lame.


It's definitely not lame. It may not be worthwhile for your purposes, but THX certification guarantees a very high level of compliance with a very significant set of standards designed to produce a high quality A/V presentation. Of course the DVR's set of standards are easier to meet than many other components, but it still is more than trifling.



Evilmonkee said:


> HDMI cable? WOOoooOOooooo!


Every dollar counts.



Evilmonkee said:


> That's it? So $325 more for 1TB of storage?


No one is forcing you to buy one or to find the same set of criteria important. That doesn't mean the feature set is not worth the cost to others. I'm not going to buy one at this price, either, or even at $250. I've got three Series III class TiVos and don't need another at this point.



Evilmonkee said:


> There is one thing they could have done that would have made this Tivo worthy of the XL and the jacked up price. They should have doubled up the tuners with the ability of two M-Cards.


Two M-cards are not necessary. M-cards can handle up to 6 digital streams, meaning a DVR with a single M-card can have up to 6 tuners being serviced by the M-card at one time. If the 1T drive, THX certification, S3 remote, and HDMI cable were eliminated and two extra tuners installed, I doubt nearly as many people would buy the unit at the $600 cost. That you personally find 4 tuners to be of more value doesn't mean everyone else does. If I were not an engineer and were purchasing another unit, I would consider paying an additional $200 for a 1T unit with the S3 remote and an HDMI cable. I would not wish to pay anything - or at most not more than $20 - for additional tuners, since I would rarely if ever use them. Certainly there are a significant number of people who would, but the same is true of the features inthe XL.



Evilmonkee said:


> There is no innovation with the XL.


Good business and good consumer service is not necessarily about innovation. A good selection of purchasing decisions is often much more important than innovation.



Evilmonkee said:


> They simply


Good business and good consumer service isn't about being complex, either. It's good for the consumer and the company to offer both basic and more advanced options.



Evilmonkee said:


> just slapped in a larger HD(THX cert. is worthless)


The hard drive is one part of it, but the THX certification is not worthless. You will only find it on high end A/V gear. That doesn't mean lower cost gear cannot be found which delivers excellent quality, but that's not the point. You also keep leaving out the S3 remote and the HDMI cable as if they have no additional value whatsoever. The retail cost of an HDMI cable is about $15, give or take. The retail cost of the glo remote is $49. Add the two plus shipping and you have an additional cost of about $70 to the consumer who purchases a TiVo HD, an HDMI cable, and a glo remote.



Evilmonkee said:


> Seriously, for the people who need to record 150HD/1300SD hours...go the frak outside once in a while for cripes sakes!


I'm at somewhere around 5000 hours and counting. It's not about the amont of TV, it's about the CHOICE. For some reason you don't seem to understand there is value in having choices. I would be the first to agree with you I don't personally care to pay the premium for being an early adopter, but that doesn't mean there are not others who are for whatever reasons willing to pay for the privilege.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> I see they managed to butcher the Tru2way interface between CES 2008 :up: and CEDIA 2008 :down: What happened? Did they fire their software people? EDIT: It appears it depends on the manufacturer or the content provider as to what interface is used... Sony :up: and Samsung :up: On Demand comparison: :down: vs :up:


Make that :down: on all of them and I'm with you. Tru2way has nothing I want (beyond SDV) and all those interfaces are vomitous. I'll pass, thanks. (I'll allow the ones you gave a thumbs-up are better, but they are still lousy.)


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## captkirk685 (Nov 23, 2006)

This is good for the people that don't know how to upgrade themselves but why $600.00? I can buy a Tivo HD for 300.00 buy a 1 TB hard drive for 130.00 and have the same thing for $430.00. Good for tivo to finally realize people need more recording space, you would think with everybody doing upgrades for more space all these years that just maybe there would be a market for this. I am not knocking Tivo either, I have 4 running(3 with M cable cards) and not one single problem (knocking on wood as I type this) way to go Tivo I am glad your starting to listen to customer needs, just right now at this time for the do it yourselfers its cheaper to upgrade yourself. 

another way to look at it though

do it yourself= voiding warranty
buy the tivo HD XL=warranty stays in tact


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> That's a bit strong. People who like to be early adopters are willing to pay a premium for it and the manufacturers are compelled to take advantage of the situation in order to recap some of their development costs and capital expenditures.


I got my S3 within the lifetime transfer offer so I consider myself an 'almost early' adopter of the S3's. 
Your argument tracks to units that make a quantum leap in features or technology. I suggest the XL does not meet the threshold for the a quantum leap unit. AFIK, this unit simply has a larger HD & a glow remote.

I have no complaints about Tivo selling & charging $600 for the XL. Just don't think it has the mystique about it the S4's will have. One T units have been out their for a while now.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

beejpowers said:


> There is no "THX signal" All THX is, is a certification standard.
> For anyone who lives in a state where the gov't regulates your cars emissions, think of it like this:
> They hook the car up to the computer adn runn the engine at say 2000 RPM and 5000 RPM and measure the exhaust output at those speeds. Each car has a different size engine, fuel type and oxygen mixture. The computer is told what type of car it's testing and then compares the output exhaust percentages (CO2, CO, etc...) to what is "passable"
> 
> ...


Good info. Thanks for setting me straight.


davezatz said:


> My TiVo Series3 is louder than my TiVo HD...


How did you test? Hook a microphone to an oscilloscope and lay it on top of the Tivos?


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

For people who want to rant about prices, I think the upgrade drives at Weaknees and DVRupgrade are better targets, such as $399 for a 1TB drive.


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## captkirk685 (Nov 23, 2006)

c3 said:


> For people who want to rant about prices, I think the upgrade drives at Weaknees and DVRupgrade are better targets, such as $399 for a 1TB drive.


He won't be able to charge those prices much longer..


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

MickeS said:


> People complain every time TiVo does something. It's just a fact of life.


... and a fact of life that sometimes things deserve criticism 

In this case, I see no reason to criticize. In fact, I think the new model is great news.


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## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

c3 said:


> For people who want to rant about prices, I think the upgrade drives at Weaknees and DVRupgrade are better targets, such as $399 for a 1TB drive.


no kidding.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

jeffdoering said:


> steinercat said:
> 
> 
> > good stuff!
> ...


That is exactly right. Drives with the penulimate V in the model number are the new budget 8MB cache drives. The smaller cache should not affect performance on the TiVo. Additionally, the new line also include the reduced parts 3-platter single bearing (no StableTrac) design recently integrated into the original 16MB cache 1TB models. I suppose they have determined the reduced mass of the new platter design allows the cost cutting of the single bearing system. The smaller 500GB drive in that line never used StableTrac. An OEM like TiVo buying thousands of drives wants every cost savings possible.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

c3 said:


> For people who want to rant about prices, I think the upgrade drives at Weaknees and DVRupgrade are better targets, such as $399 for a 1TB drive.


Targets? Now you are telling people to vent their frustrations on us? Have you any decency at all?

$399 is not for the just the cost of the drive. We also provide a six month warranty on our labor, free shipping, the instructions, a custom Torx wrench, and any additional support required to help out with the installation. The products we offer are packaged and shipped according to the specifications of the manufacturer, and not shoddily packaged as bare drives often are by online resellers like Newegg or ebay hawkers.

You may not ascribe much value to any of that, but others do.

I don't work for free, nor do any of my employees. And the costs associated with sponsoring this forum are not cheap - so keep in mind that to market our wares, we need to spend money, as well.

That is why we need to make money selling the products we do. On some products we make a little, on some products we make more, and on some we make nothing. I'm not going to expose you to the details of our internal cost structure, but suffice it to say that the margins across all of our products are appropriate, but we wish they were better.



captkirk685 said:


> He won't be able to charge those prices much longer..


As the prices of the drives get cheaper, the easier it is to lower our prices to our customers. This has always been the case; at least for the last eight years it has. At one time, we sold 160GB drives for $299 or $399; I honestly can't remember, it was that long ago. Now we charge $109. I'll also point out that when the high-capacity drives come out, we don't make much on them. They are initially SO expensive that we start out by not inflating the prices to the point where the actual cost is prohibitive. Its called "price sensitivity."

But let's not oversimplify things here -- the costs associated with many aspects of offering products to folks have as much to do with overhead, support, and all the other things that go along with running a business as they do with the cost of goods. How much do you pay for a nice dinner out? How much do you think the ingredients cost? Do you stand outside a restaurant telling prospective customers what a rip-off the place is?

No need to go through a basic lesson in economics or the details of our pricing and margins on a product-by-product basis. We are a small business, like many others. If you don't like our pricing, pick an alternative supplier. Or do it yourself. Or whatever. Its a free country.

Please think about these things next time you or anyone you know bashes a forum sponsor or tries to instigate such a bashing. In fact, whether I am a forum sponsor or not isn't even the issue. Its just rude and mean-spirited. And its against the rules here, anyway.

Lou


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

tivoupgrade said:


> Targets? Now you are telling people to vent their frustrations on us? Have you any decency at all? <snip>


Have to agree with Lou/DVRUpgrade here. His company deserves to not only make a profit but enough of one to do whatever R&D is required to stay one step ahead of the game. Saying that they charge too much for their products because a bare drive can be had for whatever amount is like saying that the best steakhouse in town charges too much for dinner because you can buy a cut of top sirloin at Costco cheaper IMHO. 

We have to take into account that many (a majority?) of folks here are well-versed in all things TiVo including DIY upgrades. Think about all of the time and effort it takes to understand the entire upgrade process; exactly which drive to buy, how to image it once you get it, R&R, etc., etc. At minimum that's several hours worth of research and labor. If you value your time it adds up, not to mention the cost of hardware.

For the great unwashed masses that stumble into the upgrade process and have no idea how to even open their computer, the turn key option that DVRUpgrade offers has to be a godsend and often their only option.

And I for one REALLY appreciate their sponsorship of this forum. They allow discussions of everything imaginable (even direct links to their competition). Were it not for its existence many, many of us could not have so easily figured out how to upgrade or repair our TiVo's much less give them praise or complain about them...not to mention the terrific comradery of the community members. 

I hope I speak for a number of folks when I say thanks Lou. Keep up the good work! :up: :up: :up:

Okay, back to our program which is already in progress.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

Some people here have a bad habit of boiling a MSRP down to cost of parts. It's silly. R&D, marketing/promotion, operations, support.... The parts can be the cheapest aspect of selling a product. The price will most likely come down, but I doubt it will drop too much. I don't see it going below $499 for a LONG time - just a guess.
By the way, I paid $600 for my (2) S3's. I didn't feel "ripped off". I've had them for years and have received a lot of enjoyment from them. Money well spent and no regrets.

Jim H.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

jhimmel said:


> Some people here have a bad habit of boiling a MSRP down to cost of parts. It's silly. R&D, marketing/promotion, operations, support.... The parts can be the cheapest aspect of selling a product. The price will most likely come down, but I doubt it will drop too much. I don't see it going below $499 for a LONG time - just a guess.
> By the way, I paid $600 for my (2) S3's. I didn't feel "ripped off". I've had them for years and have received a lot of enjoyment from them. Money well spent and no regrets.
> 
> Jim H.


 +1 Well said. :up:


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## captkirk685 (Nov 23, 2006)

tivoupgrade said:


> Targets? Now you are telling people to vent their frustrations on us? Have you any decency at all?
> 
> $399 is not for the just the cost of the drive. We also provide a six month warranty on our labor, free shipping, the instructions, a custom Torx wrench, and any additional support required to help out with the installation. The products we offer are packaged and shipped according to the specifications of the manufacturer, and not shoddily packaged as bare drives often are by online resellers like Newegg or ebay hawkers.
> 
> ...


I actually wasn't trying to bash you at all, I should have added more to my post, its just the business side of things that won't allow you to keep charging $399.99. The prices are falling and competition, plus it looks like Tivo its self is going to be your competition, I think what you do is great and have no problem with your prices..


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## wedenton (Jun 13, 2002)

captkirk685 said:


> This is good for the people that don't know how to upgrade themselves but why $600.00? I can buy a Tivo HD for 300.00 buy a 1 TB hard drive for 130.00 and have the same thing for $430.00. Good for tivo to finally realize people need more recording space, you would think with everybody doing upgrades for more space all these years that just maybe there would be a market for this. I am not knocking Tivo either, I have 4 running(3 with M cable cards) and not one single problem (knocking on wood as I type this) way to go Tivo I am glad your starting to listen to customer needs, just right now at this time for the do it yourselfers its cheaper to upgrade yourself.
> 
> another way to look at it though
> 
> ...


Don't forget $50 for the Glo remote, which brings the total to $480. Not all that far from $600, and for a non-adventurous buyer (Like me) who never heard of Winmfs (Until recently) not a bad deal. Plus the price will certainly drop.


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## captkirk685 (Nov 23, 2006)

wedenton said:


> Don't forget $50 for the Glo remote, which brings the total to $480. Not all that far from $600, and for a non-adventurous buyer (Like me) who never heard of Winmfs (Until recently) not a bad deal. Plus the price will certainly drop.


Yeah I totally agree, and I am not totally against Tivo making some money because I would like to see them around for many years to come, I have to admit we sure get alot in return for the service fees they charge.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

wedenton said:


> Don't forget $50 for the Glo remote, which brings the total to $480. Not all that far from $600, and for a non-adventurous buyer (Like me) who never heard of Winmfs (Until recently) not a bad deal. Plus the price will certainly drop.


The piece missing is, I think the target market for this equipment, just like the original S3, are people who toss the packaged remote of everything, including the Tivo.

Personally, I have a single universal remote in every TV room in my house. It makes no sense to do otherwise. And the "Glo-Remote", while a wonderful remote, is iinadequate as a universal remote.

*Anyway, I'm thrilled to see this, and I'm certainly a target user (I'm about as frivolous as you can get with electronics, and I love Tivo), but I have three main issues:*

1) It's too early for me to feel right about retiring my S3's, and there's no compelling reason (except MCARD, which FIOS doesn't support yet) to get the XL.

2) The Series 4 is likely around the corner, even if it's a year from now, I'd rather upgrade to that.

3) If I want a new one or need to upgrade (my last S2) in the mean time, I can't see buying this over the THD. It's basically just a THD w/ a 1TB drive (which is easy enough to do on our own).

So it's not compelling enough to replace an existing S3, and it's not compelling enough to buy instead of a THD + 1TB drive, and it's too close to the Series 4.

I have to believe that anyone who cares about a 1TB internal drive is also someone who can do the upgrade easily themselves.

Weird marketing. It needed something else to make it worth the purchase, IMO. They would have been much better off introducing an official 1TB (or 1.5TB) external drive, and perhaps an upgrade to the base THD internal drive to 500GB, same price.


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

AbMagFab said:


> It needed something else to make it worth the purchase, IMO. They would have been much better off introducing an official 1TB (or 1.5TB) external drive, and perhaps an upgrade to the base THD internal drive to 500GB, same price.


They TOTALLY should have thrown in a tivo plushy


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

AbMagFab said:


> I have to believe that anyone who cares about a 1TB internal drive is also someone who can do the upgrade easily themselves.


I agree with pretty much everything you just said except for the above quote. Obviously, around _here_, most people know about upgrading and many can do it for themselves. But given the [relatively small] size of the market I've served, I'd say most people don't even know that you can upgrade, and that an even smaller number are comfortable with the steps, however simple they are to those of us here...

I think the big question is whether there are enough TiVo fans out there willing to buy the product to justify the cost of offering it in the first place. In talking to some of my 'sources' the number to make it worthwhile is not that big, and there certainly are plenty of TiVo customers out there who would choose a larger TiVo when adding another seat to their environment.

Also, in looking at the timing of the announcement... CEDIA... this is a product that a custom installer can easily sell with a large home theater installation. The cost of the TiVo is a small percentage of the total amount their types of customers spend. So why not give them the largest option available?


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

tivoupgrade said:


> I agree with pretty much everything you just said except for the above quote. Obviously, around _here_, most people know about upgrading and many can do it for themselves. But given the [relatively small] size of the market I've served, I'd say most people don't even know that you can upgrade, and that an even smaller number are comfortable with the steps, however simple they are to those of us here...
> 
> I think the big question is whether there are enough TiVo fans out there willing to buy the product to justify the cost of offering it in the first place. In talking to some of my 'sources' the number to make it worthwhile is not that big, and there certainly are plenty of TiVo customers out there who would choose a larger TiVo when adding another seat to their environment.
> 
> Also, in looking at the timing of the announcement... CEDIA... this is a product that a custom installer can easily sell with a large home theater installation. The cost of the TiVo is a small percentage of the total amount their types of customers spend. So why not give them the largest option available?


Well, I would say that the people who don't know how to upgrade don't care about a 1TB Tivo. I kind of think they're the same.

But you're absolutely right about custom installers, or any HT. That makes total sense. For a new Tivo in a new HT, for most people who outsource, you get the HD XL. It's even got "XL" in it, so it must be better!


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## jebbbz (Sep 7, 2007)

stream said:


> I paid $210 for my TiVo HD, plus $160 for a 1 TB WD10EVCS = $370.
> 
> Even paying $300 list for the THD = $460.
> 
> I don't think glo remote, THX, and HDMI cable ($10 at monoprice) is worth $140 - $230.


Don't forget that after you upgrade to the 1TB drive you have a 160GB drive ($50?) as a spare or to use elsewhere.

Unless the hardware inside has changed significantly this doesn't interest me much. I did upgrade my TiVo HD with a 400GB drive I had lying around but I hate the thought of having tons of shows stored on a drive I can't back up. Having three times as many tons of shows vulnerable to a drive crash leaves me jittery. (At least I can back up broadcast shows by also recording them on my low-bucks HTPC.) Give me a way to make super-duper encrypted backups playable only on the source machine and I will think about multi-TB storage. Yes, I am a coward.


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

wedenton said:


> Don't forget $50 for the Glo remote, which brings the total to $480. Not all that far from $600, and for a non-adventurous buyer (Like me) who never heard of Winmfs (Until recently) not a bad deal. Plus the price will certainly drop.


Forget the GLO remote, or sell it on eBay. You'd be better off with the Logitech Harmony.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

jebbbz said:


> Give me a way to make super-duper encrypted backups playable only on the source machine and I will think about multi-TB storage. Yes, I am a coward.


Somehow I don't think a TiVo HD RAID is something TiVo is working on.

There is an easy (albeit time consuming) way to make backups currently and they're not even "super-duper encrypted". TiVo Desktop can copy programs off any of the TiVo Series 3 models.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

gamo62 said:


> Forget the GLO remote, or sell it on eBay. You'd be better off with the Logitech Harmony.


To tell you the truth, the only thing I prefer about the GLO remote over the standard one is the placement of the select button. I don't use any of the learning features and I've turned off the back-lighting to save batteries.

The thing I don't like about the GLO remote is it suffers from the same problem my original S2 remote did, namely double button presses. 
I "fixed" this with my S2 remote, by having it replaced a few years back with a newer one, but I'm not willing to risk $50 to see if newer GLO remote have fixed this problem.

My current remote version is "SPCA-01003-000, Rev A2 111106" according to the label in the battery compartment.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

tivoupgrade said:


> Targets? Now you are telling people to vent their frustrations on us? Have you any decency at all?


I don't think he meant the term in the sense of "that's what you should criticize". I think he meant "target price". Specifically, and I agree with the point, a good metric for the price of the TiVo HD XL is to add the cost of your $399 1T upgrade to the TiVo HD and then subtract about $50 or so. What do we wind up with? About $600. I think that's about the right introductory price, give or take. No harm, no foul, and nothing to write home about.



tivoupgrade said:


> $399 is not for the just the cost of the drive. We also provide a six month warranty on our labor, free shipping, the instructions, a custom Torx wrench, and any additional support required to help out with the installation.


My honest opinion is it's a bit pricey, but still a good value. You shouldn't take that as an insult, at all, either. After all, Lambourghinis are a lot pricey. Oh, and you forgot something - it has the software on it. While you cannot in this instance charge for the software, you can charge for the packaging, and it does represent a value in the product.



tivoupgrade said:


> The products we offer are packaged and shipped according to the specifications of the manufacturer, and not shoddily packaged as bare drives often are by online resellers like Newegg or ebay hawkers.


Well, Newegg and e-bay sellers are two very different things.



tivoupgrade said:


> You may not ascribe much value to any of that, but others do.


Which is the point certain people are missing, although not, I think, the OP. I think you misunderstood his intent. I could be wrong. In any case, no one is forcing someone to buy your drives, and there are certainly alternatives. You provide a piece of hardware with value added service.



tivoupgrade said:


> I don't work for free, nor do any of my employees. And the costs associated with sponsoring this forum are not cheap - so keep in mind that to market our wares, we need to spend money, as well.


Absolutely. As a retailer, you provide the products for whatever price you feel is appropriate. If no one feels your product is worth the price, you won't sell any, and you'll fail as a business. If you price the product too low, you'll eventually fail as a business, as well. I think the fact you've been in business now for - what, 8 years? - speaks for itself. Of course, no one will complain if you drop the price to $349, either. Do so, or not, as your financial acumen guides you.



tivoupgrade said:


> Do you stand outside a restaurant telling prospective customers what a rip-off the place is?


Some people do, yeah. And some business do rip off their customers. They provide shoddy or refurbished alternatives and pass them off as premium goods. Your example of restaurants are among the worst. Many pass of turkey or pork as veal. Some re-serve food products not eaten by previous guests. Many purchase inferior products while specifically claiming to employ high quality foodstuffs. Some businesses prey upon the lack of guile or technical acumen of their clients. Monster is a good example. Specifically addressing your business, however, I have not detected any hint of such dealings. It's true you supply a service which technically savvy individuals can supply for themselves, but so does the most honest mechanic, carpenter, or plumber on Earth. Ignorance is expensive, and rightly so.



tivoupgrade said:


> No need to go through a basic lesson in economics


Um, actually, you just did. 



tivoupgrade said:


> Please think about these things next time you or anyone you know bashes a forum sponsor or tries to instigate such a bashing. In fact, whether I am a forum sponsor or not isn't even the issue. Its just rude and mean-spirited. And its against the rules here, anyway.


I'm sure you are very aware in a medium like this it is very easy to mistake intent, and I truly beklieve this is what happened in this case. I certainly did not take the OP's post to mean he thought the $399 price of your 1T drive should be a target for ridicule. I took it to mean the target price for the value added cost of a THD XL should be the $399 cost of your 1T TiVo drive, not the $149 cost of a bare drive, and assuming this to be the case, I agree, after subtracting the differential in cost for a base 160G drive and a bare 1T drive, adjusting for the $49 remote, the HDMI cable, etc.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wedenton said:


> Don't forget $50 for the Glo remote, which brings the total to $480. Not all that far from $600, and for a non-adventurous buyer (Like me) who never heard of Winmfs (Until recently) not a bad deal. Plus the price will certainly drop.


If my company hires out my services as an engineer, or if I offer my services independently, the cost is $450 an hour, plus any travel expenses. If you were to bring your TiVo to me and have me upgrade it, it would cost you about $200 - $300, pushingthe cost significantly beyond the $600 mark. Of course, I don't offer my services as an upgrader for TiVos, and you don't need an engineer just to upgrade a TiVo, but I'm illustrating a point. Technical acumen costs money to obtain, it has a value when attached to services, and it costs money to employ.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> If my company hires out my services as an engineer, or if I offer my services independently, the cost is $450 an hour, plus any travel expenses. If you were to bring your TiVo to me and have me upgrade it, it would cost you about $200 - $300, pushingthe cost significantly beyond the $600 mark. Of course, I don't offer my services as an upgrader for TiVos, and you don't need an engineer just to upgrade a TiVo, but I'm illustrating a point. Technical acumen costs money to obtain, it has a value when attached to services, and it costs money to employ.


Um, the point is doing it yourself is free. Of course it's cheaper to buy it then pay someone else to do it, but that's not the point.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

AbMagFab said:


> The piece missing is, I think the target market for this equipment, just like the original S3, are people who toss the packaged remote of everything, including the Tivo.


I was part of the target market for the S3, and I'm using its remote on both S3s. No universal remote has yet ever to fill my needs, and I'm surely not going to spend several hundred dollars for items which fill my needs less thoroughly than items I already have and have already purchased. You've got a warm fuzzy for your universal remote. Fine. That doesn't mean everyone does, including those of us with extensive technical knowledge and considerable personal involvement with TiVos.



tivoupgrade said:


> Personally, I have a single universal remote in every TV room in my house. It makes no sense to do otherwise.


Quite to the contrary, it makes perfect sense to do otherwise. Just because your judgment calls for one thing does not mean a contrary judgment makes no sense.



AbMagFab said:


> And the "Glo-Remote", while a wonderful remote, is iinadequate as a universal remote.


True enough, but I also have yet to meet a universal remote which stands as a perfect replacement for the TiVo remote, especially when combined with all the other remotes - up to ten - which must be replaced in each of my rooms.



AbMagFab said:


> 1) It's too early for me to feel right about retiring my S3's, and there's no compelling reason (except MCARD, which FIOS doesn't support yet) to get the XL.


Compelling to you. Others may feel differently. In my particular case, I actively retained my Series I TiVo for 8 years. The S2 offered nothing I wanted at all. Does that mean TiVo should not have come out with the S2? I don't intend to retire my S3s for probably 7 or 8 years, if then, unless I am forced to.



AbMagFab said:


> 2) The Series 4 is likely around the corner, even if it's a year from now, I'd rather upgrade to that.


'Your choice. Unless it has a much faster I/O system and a 1000BaseT port, I see nothing I want in the S4.



AbMagFab said:


> Weird marketing. It needed something else to make it worth the purchase, IMO.


You are making a lot of unwarranted assumptions, chief among them the notion everyone who will be purchasing an XL is already a TiVo owner who is replacing their older unit. Just because it applies to you doesn't mean it applies to the average purchaser. Indeed, just the opposite is true.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

AbMagFab said:


> Well, I would say that the people who don't know how to upgrade don't care about a 1TB Tivo. I kind of think they're the same.


I disagree entirely. There are a lot of different purchasers out there, from first time Tivo buyers to people who are moving back to a TiVo after having spent time on a satellite system or using a CATV leased DVR to those who have one or more TiVos and for whatever reason need another. While there are very good reasons one might do an upgrade utilizing a bare drive, there are also good reasons why one might want to use a pre-upgraded drive, have someone like Weaknees or DVRUpgrade do it for them, or purchase a system with a larger drive at the outset. Had the XL been out when I was purchasing my third TiVo, I would definitely have considered it along with the regular THD, and I've done dozens of TiVo upgrades. I don't think I would have purchased it at $600, but at $500, I think I might well have done. At $450, which is where I think the price will eventually settle, I know I would have done.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

morac said:


> To tell you the truth, the only thing I prefer about the GLO remote over the standard one is the placement of the select button. I don't use any of the learning features and I've turned off the back-lighting to save batteries.


I believe I saw someone else mention this elsewhere, but I somehow missed it in the docs. How does one turn off the backlight? I need it from time to time in the theater, but not in the living room. The living room also gets more use.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

AbMagFab said:


> Um, the point is doing it yourself is free.


No, it isn't unless you consider your time to be worthless. Mine is certainly not. It takes time to gather together the components, including perhaps drive time and gasoline. It takes time and trouble to learn how to do the upgrade. It takes time and trouble to open the TiVo - voiding the warranty, by the way and possibly incurring an extra $150 if the electronics of the Tivo fail. OF course, people like myself and I think probably you enjoy the entire process, so that enjoyment in and of itself adds value to the self-upgraded TiVo, perhaps well beyond the value of your own time. In that case, self upgrades make the most sense. Not everyone enjoys doing these things however, and not everyone feels competent to do them. Many people, myself included, look long and hard at a situation before casually voiding a warranty on a new $250 unit.



AbMagFab said:


> Of course it's cheaper to buy it then pay someone else to do it, but that's not the point.


Actually, it is. Whether you pay someone else to do it, or "pay" yourself to do it, it still represents a loss of your assets. In the case of the self upgrade, it's an expenditure of time and effort, instead of cash, but if nothing else you could be making money upgrading someone else's TiVo during that time, rather than your own.

Edit: Oh, by the way, buying an upgraded TiVo *IS* paying someone to do the upgrade for you. If the XL can be considered an upgraded TiVo - a reasonable assertion in this case - then TiVo is charging you about $200 for a 1T hard drive, a remote, and an HDMI cable, plus $150 to get the unit THX certified and perform the labor, while keeping the old hard drive and remote, while keeping the warranty. It's not exactly the greatest deal on Earth, but it's certainly not a rip-off.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> I believe I saw someone else mention this elsewhere, but I somehow missed it in the docs. How does one turn off the backlight? I need it from time to time in the theater, but not in the living room. The living room also gets more use.


Point the remote away from the TiVo or cover the front and press and hold both of the following buttons for about 2 seconds until the remote led blinks:

TiVo + Thumbs down - Turn off backlighting
TiVo + Thumbs up - turn on blacklighting.


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

webin said:


> They TOTALLY should have thrown in a tivo plushy


But then people would complain that they are paying $150 for the plushy doll after they add up the price of the remote, larger drive, cable and the original HD price!!

For me, when I buy another TV in the fall, this will be my next tivo, I think it's great value for money


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shady said:


> But then people would complain that they are paying $150 for the plushy doll after they add up the price of the remote, larger drive, cable and the original HD price!!


Oh, you hit the nail squarely on the head with that one. Why is it all the people complaining about the price of the XL aren't buying a TiVo right now, anyway?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

morac said:


> TiVo + Thumbs down - Turn off backlighting
> TiVo + Thumbs up - turn on blacklighting.


Thanks a ton!


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

morac said:


> There is an easy (albeit time consuming) way to make backups currently and they're not even "super-duper encrypted". TiVo Desktop can copy programs off any of the TiVo Series 3 models.


Unless you have Time Warner cable which has implemented draconian copy protection flags on everything except local channels.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Yeah, but there's a work-around solution for everything.


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## jebbbz (Sep 7, 2007)

morac said:


> Somehow I don't think a TiVo HD RAID is something TiVo is working on.
> 
> There is an easy (albeit time consuming) way to make backups currently and they're not even "super-duper encrypted". TiVo Desktop can copy programs off any of the TiVo Series 3 models.


Agreed about RAID but even the Dish approach would be useful. There, all recordings start on the internal drive but may be moved manually to a USB drive which may be detached and replaced with any number of other USB drives. While you still only have one copy you could create a library of USB drives that would not be running constantly.

With either a huge TiVo internal drive or internal plus external your numerous recordings are always at some risk. With an external you double your failure points - one drive dies and both are ruined as far as your recordings are concerned.

I do use analog outputs to back up some recordings but for the most part I use a PC with digital and analog tuners to back up my TiVo, at least so I don't miss an episode in a continuing series. I can't get encrypted, digital-cable-only shows easily but, well, life is full of danger.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Many people, myself included, look long and hard at a situation before casually voiding a warranty on a new $250 unit.


 I have NEVER seen someone have a warranty issue becaue they upgraded the drive. NEVER.



> Edit: Oh, by the way, buying an upgraded TiVo *IS* paying someone to do the upgrade for you. If the XL can be considered an upgraded TiVo - a reasonable assertion in this case - then TiVo is charging you about $200 for a 1T hard drive, a remote, and an HDMI cable, plus $150 to get the unit THX certified and perform the labor, while keeping the old hard drive and remote, while keeping the warranty. It's not exactly the greatest deal on Earth, but it's certainly not a rip-off.


just like the S3 - every one is arguing/comparing to the intor retail price. We all know it is higher than what the unit will settle in at. That is just the proper way to introduce a unit and make some early adopter profit.

The S3 can be had for less than 600$ now and perhaps even far less if you shop for it.

The TiVo HDXL will have the same price drop over time and then what happens to all these comaprisons using 599$. I bet the good price at Christmas on the HDXL will be 450$ and well worth the money if you wnat a good HD DVR with the biggest stock drive out there


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

Christmas is only a few months away. I'd think it will retain a little more price in that time..... you might find Black Thursday deals for $549, with it coming up $500 next spring.

But I'm sure lrhorer will disagree... seems to be his thing.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have NEVER seen someone have a warranty issue because they upgraded the drive. NEVER.


Neither have I. That doesn't mean it can't happen. I've upgraded lots of Tivos, includng new ones, and I always consider the possibility.



ZeoTiVo said:


> The TiVo HDXL will have the same price drop over time and then what happens to all these comaprisons using 599$. I bet the good price at Christmas on the HDXL will be 450$ and well worth the money if you wnat a good HD DVR with the biggest stock drive out there


No bet.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

webin said:


> Christmas is only a few months away. I'd think it will retain a little more price in that time..... you might find Black Thursday deals for $549, with it coming up $500 next spring.
> 
> But I'm sure lrhorer will disagree... seems to be his thing.


No, this is crystal ball stuff, and while I would put the $549 price at the high end and $450 at the low end, either is perfectly possible for this Christmas, in my estimation. Time will tell.


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> Yeah, but there's a work-around solution for everything.


Sure, but work around's aren't for the majority of users. The fact of the mater is if a tivo owner has TW they need a 1TB unit because they can't MRV most of the show's.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have NEVER seen someone have a warranty issue becaue they upgraded the drive. NEVER.


I did. When the TiVoHD first came out, I immediately upgraded the drive. I was having problems with it putting out two mono channels instead of a stereo signal form Analog channels. I called TiVo and right away they said they saw where I upgraded the drive, so for them to troubleshoot anything I would have to send the unit in and pay around $150 for a replacement, then they would trouble shoot it.(I didn't tell then I upgraded the drive, they told me I did and that accounts get flagged when the capacity is increased so they know who has popped open the hood and replaced the drive) I put the original drive back in and exchanged it at Circuit City, That box had the same problem and the third. It ended up being a software problem which was remedied by me getting FIOS which didn't have any analog channels. The problem didn't occur with digital channels.

But they denied me full warranty service because I upgraded the drive. Although they were not going to charge me the full $300 retail price for a replacement, they wanted to charge me $150 for a TiVoHD that was a few days old to replace it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Evilmonkee said:


> I have a Harmony One that is a thousand times better than any remote that Tivo is going to include.


I have a question or two. I have in the past considered getting a Harmony One, but at $250 a pop, retail, I don't want to buy into anything that won't suit my needs more or less perfectly.

How does the Harmony One handle Thumbs-Up, Thumbs-Down, and Aspect on the TiVo? I don't see what buttons would be assigned. I see an Info button, but does it get assigned the Info button on the TiVo? It looks like it might possibly be a remote system key, rather than an assignable universal key.

How does it handle shuttle controls, such as that on my LDR-600. I don't see a shuttle knob or analog.

How does it handle specifying disk vs. track numbers on jukeboxes and multi-disk players? How does it handle the next track vs next disc distinction?

How does one handle the situation when a toggle command (such as input toggle or power on/off) has been missed and one needs to issue a very specific command to only a single device?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

You assign the buttons yourself, just like Harmony remotes have always been. With the H1 I use the touchscreen for Thumbs up/down, aspect, etc. I use it for buttons I don't use very often and use the hard buttons for functions I use on a regular basis since I can use the hard buttons without looking at them but need to look at the touch screen when using those functions.

When I had a touchscreen LCD in The early 2000s that was my complaint with it, that I always had to look at the screen when using it. The H1 has the best of both worlds since it has a touch screen and a hard button layout that can be used without having to look at the remote.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> You assign the buttons yourself, just like Harmony remotes have always been. With the H1 I use the touchscreen for Thumbs up/down, aspect, etc. I use it for buttons I don't use very often and use the hard buttons for functions I use on a regular basis since I can use the hard buttons without looking at them but need to look at the touch screen when using those functions.


Well, that would be fine if there were hard buttons for thumbs-up and thumbs-down. Aside from and the movement buttons (including Jump), those are the two most used buttons on the remote, and also aside from the aforementioned the ones most in need of operation without looking. Info is next, followed by Aspect, the 1 and 2 numeric buttons, and then the rest.

That answers my first question. What about the others?



aaronwt said:


> When I had a touchscreen LCD in The early 2000s that was my complaint with it, that I always had to look at the screen when using it.


Yeah, that's why I've never wanted an LCD unit.


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## LDLDL (Jan 12, 2002)

stream said:


> I paid $210 for my TiVo HD, plus $160 for a 1 TB WD10EVCS = $370.
> 
> Even paying $300 list for the THD = $460.
> 
> I don't think glo remote, THX, and HDMI cable ($10 at monoprice) is worth $140 - $230.


My Comcast office gives the HDMI cable for nothing. I've gotten three from them!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Well, that would be fine if there were hard buttons for thumbs-up and thumbs-down. Aside from and the movement buttons (including Jump), those are the two most used buttons on the remote, and also aside from the aforementioned the ones most in need of operation without looking. Info is next, followed by Aspect, the 1 and 2 numeric buttons, and then the rest.
> 
> That answers my first question. What about the others?
> 
> Yeah, that's why I've never wanted an LCD unit.


I use info on the hard buttons, as well a jump, guide. Again you can assign whatever function you want to the buttons. My least used, like thumbs up/down, aspect etc are on the touchscreen. But I could just as easily assign them to hard buttons if I wanted to.
The touchscreen allows me to have alot of functions available quickly to use, on an easy to see screen. But I relegate the functions that I don't use much to the touch screen. Someone else might assign things differently, but that's the beauty of the Harmony One. It has the best of both worlds so each user can taylor it to how they want.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> It's like complaining that you bought a 42 inch plasma and now they make a 50 inch also...


Not even, because in that scenario the price of the 42 inch probably dropped.

Anyway, the only thing that bugs me is that I lifetimed by regular TivoHD, which means that I would not lifetime this one (use MRV), so I'll have the less desirable one lifetimed. Oh well, that's technology. Thanks board for not giving me the head's up.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ericlhyman said:


> Is a Tivo Series 4 still expected in early 2009? Does this still have the series 3 limitation that precludes Pay Per View from Verizon Fios?
> 
> Are 2 cable cards required?





TWinbrook46636 said:


> The TiVo Series 4 might be shown as a prototype at CES in January but don't expect it to go on sale until summer at the earliest. As a Tru2way device it will be able to access On Demand content and tune channels on systems using SDV.


not sure how this became the "series 4" thread but NO a Series 4 likely would NOT work with verizon ppv/vod anyway. Verizon uses IPTV for vod and ppv. THere's no standard in place at all for that and I wouldn't assume to see it anytime soon either. I dont think tivo would take the time to make a specific box or bit of software to work with verizon's iptv as opposed to att's iptv or qwests iptv, etc , etc.


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## archebaldo (Sep 6, 2007)

Does anyone have any idea about this? The tivo expander is 500 GB and is advertised to hold 60 hours of HD. So if I multiply that by 2 (ie. a 1 TB expander drive), I have 120 hours of HD. The Tivo HD XL has a 1 TB drive and is advertised to hold 150 hours of HD. Where is the extra 30 hours of hd coming from?


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

Did anyone else just get an email announcement from TiVo about this?

The interesting thing on the email was the line that says


> Sign in to your account for special customer pricing


and there is a link to click on. I click on it, sign in, and guess what my special customer price is.....

Let's just say I don't feel so special anymore.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

irhorer- there's other threads here and plenty at avs forums on remotes so dont want to polute this one too much but the harmony 880/890 have an lcd for the labels but hard buttons next to the lcd to actually do the action. So you can "fell" your way to them without looking.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

DrewTivo said:


> Anyway, the only thing that bugs me is that I lifetimed by regular TivoHD, which means that I would not lifetime this one (use MRV), so I'll have the less desirable one lifetimed. Oh well, that's technology. Thanks board for not giving me the head's up.


You could always buy a lifetime TiVo XL, sell the old lifetimed HD to recoup the cost and then buy a new TiVo HD. I'm not sure why you can't have two lifetimed units though.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

archebaldo said:


> Does anyone have any idea about this? The tivo expander is 500 GB and is advertised to hold 60 hours of HD. So if I multiply that by 2 (ie. a 1 TB expander drive), I have 120 hours of HD. The Tivo HD XL has a 1 TB drive and is advertised to hold 150 hours of HD. Where is the extra 30 hours of hd coming from?


Either they're using different gb/hour figures or they're calculating the GBs differently (the old "why do I have only 450GB on my 500GB drive?" problem).


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

archebaldo said:


> Does anyone have any idea about this? The tivo expander is 500 GB and is advertised to hold 60 hours of HD. So if I multiply that by 2 (ie. a 1 TB expander drive), I have 120 hours of HD. The Tivo HD XL has a 1 TB drive and is advertised to hold 150 hours of HD. Where is the extra 30 hours of hd coming from?


The box says 60 hours. The website says 65 hours.

http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/howto/getconnected/howto_add_recording_capacity.html


> Expand your recording capacity with an external hard disk that attaches to your TiVo HD DVR or TiVo Series3 DVR. The Western Digital My DVR Expander provides space to record up to 65 additional hours of high-definition shows (or 600 hours of standard definition shows) at one time. The device connects to your TiVo DVR using the E-SATA port on the back of your DVR.


Not really sure either where the other 20-30GB is coming from. 

Here was an interesting thread about capacity for SD content with the Expander...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370969&page=2


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Isn't the listed number of hours a rough estimate anyway since, with CableCARDS, it depends on size of the stream being sent by the cable provider?

For example if you record all 720p channels, you'll get more hours than if you record all 1080i channels. Similarly if you have Comcast, you'll get more hours because they compress their HD signals more than other providers.


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## ilh (Dec 21, 2007)

archebaldo said:


> Does anyone have any idea about this? The tivo expander is 500 GB and is advertised to hold 60 hours of HD. So if I multiply that by 2 (ie. a 1 TB expander drive), I have 120 hours of HD. The Tivo HD XL has a 1 TB drive and is advertised to hold 150 hours of HD. Where is the extra 30 hours of hd coming from?


A THD upgraded (supersized with WinMFS) with a 1TB drive shows 144 hours of HD. I think TiVo is just playing marketing with 150. There is no definitive answer since the data rate of HD content varies quite a bit.


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## eDbolson (Oct 25, 2001)

janry said:


> Did anyone else just get an email announcement from TiVo about this?
> 
> The interesting thing on the email was the line that says
> 
> ...


Feel special all you want - you get $100 off lifetime, or the lower MRV rate. Of course, that isn't all that special since I think you get the same thing when buying a TiVoHD, but it is sort of special...


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## dolcevita (Jan 1, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> Well, I would say that the people who don't know how to upgrade don't care about a 1TB Tivo. I kind of think they're the same.


Not necessarily.

Technically I guess I don't count as someone who doesn't know how to upgrade, because I have upgraded other Tivos.

But as a road warrior who travels for business more than 60% of the time, the _last_ thing I want to do when I'm home is spend time tinkering with the innards of my electronics. Not worth my limited leisure time at home to save a few bucks.

And for the same reason (extensive travel), a large hard drive is very appealing because it may be a week or two before I have a chance to catch up on the shows recorded during my last trip.

Perhaps I'm a spendthrift, but am seriously debating whether to sell the new HD I just got for $99 as part of an Amazon.com promotion and using the proceeds towards the XL.


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## Pilot20 (Mar 5, 2005)

beejpowers said:


> There is no "THX signal" All THX is, is a certification standard.
> For anyone who lives in a state where the gov't regulates your cars emissions, think of it like this:
> They hook the car up to the computer adn runn the engine at say 2000 RPM and 5000 RPM and measure the exhaust output at those speeds. Each car has a different size engine, fuel type and oxygen mixture. The computer is told what type of car it's testing and then compares the output exhaust percentages (CO2, CO, etc...) to what is "passable"
> 
> ...


Panasonic has released a THX certified plasma that is getting rave reviews...

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wc...8125357900&surfModel=Content01062008125357900


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## pmokover (Jan 25, 2006)

I purchased a HD-XL today. I expect to have it by the end of this week. Comcast is coming next Tuesday to install the cable card. A few questions:

1. I found instructions here for installing a cable card in the THD. Is it exactly the same instructions for the HD-XL?

2. I read somewhere here (can't find it now of course) that when you get a new TiVo HD unit it's best to connect it and let it run for a day or so before installing the cable card so that it receives software updates, channel linups, etc. Is this the right thing to do?

Thanks.
Peter


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

pmokover said:


> I purchased a HD-XL today. I expect to have it by the end of this week. Comcast is coming next Tuesday to install the cable card. A few questions:
> 
> 1. I found instructions here for installing a cable card in the THD. Is it exactly the same instructions for the HD-XL?
> 
> ...


1) Yes, should be exactly the same. There's even a thread on these forums with a LOT of detailed info.

2) Having the tivo talking to the network so it might get it's updates and such won't hurt by any means, but isn't required.

This thread in the stickies: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=363797


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

archebaldo said:


> Does anyone have any idea about this? The tivo expander is 500 GB and is advertised to hold 60 hours of HD. So if I multiply that by 2 (ie. a 1 TB expander drive), I have 120 hours of HD. The Tivo HD XL has a 1 TB drive and is advertised to hold 150 hours of HD. Where is the extra 30 hours of hd coming from?


Actually the WD My DVR Expander is listed as being able to "._..add up to 65 additional hours of high-definition shows_". The THD XL is listed as being able to "_Save up to 150 hours of HD programming at a time_.*. The asterisk/disclaimer says "_Actual recording capacity may vary by television source and content._"

As others have said, HD program file sizes can vary depending on the original files, compression, etc. 65 hours is more-or-less the most they'd be able to claim for the Expander and 150 for the THD XL, although it may be more, could easily be less...it's an estimate. We have a 1TB drive in our Series3 and it lists 144 HD hours recording time. Depending on how they configured the partitions, etc. for the THD XL, 150 hours sounds about right.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

morac said:


> You could always buy a lifetime TiVo XL, sell the old lifetimed HD to recoup the cost and then buy a new TiVo HD. I'm not sure why you can't have two lifetimed units though.


No reason you can't, but with grandfathered $6.95 second unit, it takes a pretty long time to pay off.


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

Looks like the unit is finally showing up at online Retailers like ABT, Buy.com and so forth. I wonder when it will go wide at Brick-n-Mortar retailers ?


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Dmon4u said:


> Looks like the unit is finally showing up at online Retailers like ABT, Buy.com and so forth. I wonder when it will go wide at Brick-n-Mortar retailers ?


Abt is about as brick and mortar as they come; the place is HUGE and they match prices, as well (only one location besides mail-order, though).


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## webin (Feb 13, 2008)

tivoupgrade said:


> Athe place is HUGE


They don't look so big. That picture is only 900 pixels wide! Fry's is at least 1200 pixels wide.


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## flatcurve (Sep 27, 2007)

Abt is definitely a dangerous place for me to go on a Saturday afternoon.


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## DPF (Mar 20, 2003)

Abt is a dangerous place to be...at any given time.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

webin said:


> They don't look so big. That picture is only 900 pixels wide! Fry's is at least 1200 pixels wide.




Last Fry's I went to wasn't made out of brick and mortar. It was pyramid that probably took many slaves to build.

Couldn't find a picture of it, but I did find this one; you tell me if its a dangerous place or not...


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

tivoupgrade said:


> Couldn't find a picture of it, but I did find this one; you tell me if its a dangerous place or not...


Depends on whether you consider the bubble headed martians, half melted jeep and giant ants or the rows and rows of mouth watering tech goodies to be the more dangerous.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

CuriousMark said:


> Depends on whether you consider the bubble headed martians, half melted jeep and giant ants or the rows and rows of mouth watering tech goodies to be the more dangerous.


Personally, I LOVE going to Fry's, especially when I'm in the Bay Area (rumor has it there is one right here in Illinois, but its just not the same unless you are visiting one in Silicon Valley).

Their selection of jerky is excellent.


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## bayrider88 (Sep 12, 2008)

I just bought a HDXL and it was DOA. It would be stuck on the WELCOME page forever. Called Tivo Tech support and verified that it is indeed defective. I must admit that Amazon's customer service is much more efficient and pleasant than Tivo's. In fact, I have had better service and courtesy at my local DMV. Tivo HD is a fantastically fun product when it works, however everything else in the company is sadly broken.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

bayrider88 said:


> I just bought a HDXL and it was DOA. It would be stuck on the WELCOME page forever. Called Tivo Tech support and verified that it is indeed defective. I must admit that Amazon's customer service is much more efficient and pleasant than Tivo's. In fact, I have had better service and courtesy at my local DMV. Tivo HD is a fantastically fun product when it works, however everything else in the company is sadly broken.


Um, welcome to the forum, I guess...nice first post. FWIW I've spoken with TiVo CSR's about a half dozen times over as many years and all have been pleasant and mostly knowledgeable. I understand others haven't been as lucky but a good attitude going in can often help, even when you're not happy with the situation...the CSR didn't create it after all.

After watching electronics products being shipped, delivered and shelved by near direct decedents of neanderthals, I'm less inclined to blame the manufacturer for a DOA product. Customer service is another thing entirely however. Agreed that there's no excuse for poor customer service...period.

It sounds like TiVo agreed that the unit was defective. (By the way, the general cause of what you saw was the inability of the motherboard to communicate with the hard drive. Loose wire, bad hard drive, any number of things could have caused it.) So if TiVo did their job; agreed that the unit was defective and someone agreed to replace it plus by your admission that they have a great product, why paint the entire company as "...sadly broken"? 

In any case, let's not hijack this thread to argue about the pluses and minuses of TiVo, Inc. There are other threads that welcome posts for the Complaint Department. Best of luck and enjoy your new THDXL when you get it.


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

Evilmonkee said:


> At $600, I think it's a bit of a rip-off.
> 
> There is one thing they could have done that would have made this Tivo worthy of the XL and the jacked up price. They should have doubled up the tuners with the ability of two M-Cards. That would put it on par with ATT's U-Verse DVR that can record up to 4 channels. (Personally, I see this as overkill, but can see it being handy for a family).
> !


[HiJack]
I was just wondering. When U-Verse was first implemented, you could only record one HD channel/program at a time.

Have they resolved this limitation?

If not, it is a severe drawback that would prevent me from ever getting U-Verse.

Ah, I guess they have:

http://www.tvpredictions.com/uverse072408.htm

Now, can I record 3 HD feeds at a time - or record 2 HD feeds while watching a 3rd one live? I'm sure some have more than one HDTV in their house.

Can the U-Verse box record 4 HD channels at once? From what I got out of that article (and what I have gleaned), ATT couldn't pipe more than one HD channel into the home at a time, regardless of how many STBs. If what I understand from the article I linked, it can now pipe 2 HD channels into the home.

Since my CableCo doesn't use SDV yet, all the HD channels are piped into my home all at the same time.

Sorry for the HiJack...back to the thread.
[/HiJack]

Doesn't matter how many channels the U-Verse STB can record, if the service is still hampered by bandwidth limitations. Not that most will be recording/watching that many HD feeds at once

As far as the XL, I've could have sworn there being threads/posts about some having problems with the external drive expansion. The XL would make it convenient for ppl to get the large drive out of the box.

I have a tendency right now to watch the HD channel, but record the SD channel due to space limitations.

As to those who might think that some may record and never watch, there are those ppl. But, if you have alot of ppl in the household and only have one DVR, you need all the capacity you can get.


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> not sure what's with all the haters.
> 
> if you think it's too expensive wait 2 months and it will be a pile cheaper.


I'll just wait for the refurb to show up on woot for $300 or less


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

AbMagFab said:


> Well, I would say that the people who don't know how to upgrade don't care about a 1TB Tivo. I kind of think they're the same.


I can't agree. Most people are uninformed. They just see a "magic" box.

Just like a car. They get in, turn the key. When the fuel light come on, they need to put gas it in. Most don't know the ins/outs of what's inside an automobile. It has to be explained to them.

When my brother was in the market for a used car, I got him to purchase a Chevy Prism instead of a Toyota Corolla. Underneath the sheetmetal, they are the same exact car. The Prism is usually cheaper because it doesn't say Toyota on the badge.

I know for a fact, most people I know have no clue about computers. Most just see a box. No clue about processing power, ram, hdd, screen resolution, ect. Especially with laptops. My friend purchased a HP laptop with 15.4" screen, only realizing now 1280x800 resolution is way to low for such a screen size. I tried to warn him to get at least 1440x900 or greater.

Just lucky some are smart enough to come to me first before their purchase.

This brings me to...

If they go to Best Buy, Circuit City, ect and see a TiVoHD with a large hdd and read the specs on the box, they will be more inclined to purchase it. Otherwise, as stated elsewhere in this thread, the general public would have no idea such a device exists - even though it does in the "aftermarket" - and they don't see such a need until it is pointed out to them


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

AbMagFab said:


> Um, the point is doing it yourself is free. Of course it's cheaper to buy it then pay someone else to do it, but that's not the point.


For some, like lrhorer, it's actually cheaper to pay someone else to do it - lrhorer can make more money in the time it takes to do the upgrade



LDLDL said:


> My Comcast office gives the HDMI cable for nothing. I've gotten three from them!


RCN doesn't, but at least I don't pay A/O fees. I'll take that instead of free HDMI cable any day


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

DeathRider said:


> I can't agree. Most people are uninformed. They just see a "magic" box.<snip>


Well said. :up: Although many (most?) CE store employees lack in-depth knowledge about the products they sell (and to be fair, with so many "toys" I've no idea how anyone can know a great deal about all of them), they can easily point out the difference between being able to record 20 hours of HD programming and 150 hours worth. More recording space? Mo' money. You wanna V8 engine instead of a four-banger in that shiny new car? Mo' money. 

To borrow DeathRider's analogy, does it really cost the auto manufacturer that much more to build a car with one engine/configuration or another to justify the premium price? The answer is a a solid maybe, economies of scale and all of that. Same for TiVo for all the reasons you can imagine. As mentioned before, early adopters pay top dollar (thinking back to our purchase of the Series3 ...and a couple of new cars  ) and as time goes on as with every single TiVo ever built, the price will come down. Now if I would have only waited to get that Vega.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Look back to 2004 when DirecTV came out with the HDTiVo. They were $1000 and selling for up to $2K on EBay. I bought 10 of them and sold seven to pay for the three I kept. It also paid for most of the upgrade to the three. To add 250GB drives to the existing 250GB drives. Now I would be lucky to get $100 for each of my 3 boxes with two 250GB drives in each.
Of course If I would have sold them last Summer I could have at least received $1k for all three boxes. Instead I let them sit around in my closet without getting around to selling them. But I got plenty of use out of them between 2004 and 2007.
Just Like I get plenty of use now from my TiVoHD boxes and S3 boxes.


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## rv65 (Aug 30, 2008)

Does it use the S3 startup screen or the HD startup screen with a THX logo.


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