# Roamio OTA tuners not good?



## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

Are the tuners in the Roamio OTA not very good? I've installed the new TiVo in the same place I had my HDXL. On the HDXL I could consistently receive 6 additional channels that I can't pick up on the Roamio. Also, there are a few channels that I can get on the Roamio, but they sputter even though while watching the signal strength level, it stays pretty constant.

Do I just have a bad unit or have others seen the tuners on the OTA to be somewhat weak?

(#500)


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## eddacker2 (Jun 21, 2015)

Not very helpful but I think you may be correct. My sony gets more OTA channels clearer than the Roamio OTA. I have decided to fiddle with the antenna rather than switching back to my Series 3; for comparison if nothing else.:up:


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

Roamio has FOUR tuners, which means it must have a built-in 4-way splitter. That might explain why another device with less tuners can see a higher signal level. A 4-way split means the signal is being divided down to only 25% of it's regular level for each tuner. 

You can't really compare signal level numbers between different devices, when they are all subjective to whatever standard each of them use.

Try putting in a small distribution amp on your antenna cable, just before the Roamio. It might make a difference for you.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

MikeBear said:


> Roamio has FOUR tuners, which means it must have a built-in 4-way splitter. That might explain why another device with less tuners can see a higher signal level. A 4-way split means the signal is being divided down to only 25% of it's regular level for each tuner.
> 
> You can't really compare signal level numbers between different devices, when they are all subjective to whatever standard each of them use.
> 
> Try putting in a small distribution amp on your antenna cable, just before the Roamio. It might make a difference for you.


Here's another example. I have a Premier and a Roamio, both basic units, on one cable feed. Except for the last meter it's the same. The signal on the two Premiere tuners are 75 to 85. The signal on all four of the Roamio tuners are at 90. So, does the Roamio lie? Do I trust the numbers? Is the Roamio connector very warm to the touch? Something to ponder, but there is some posting that Roamio tuners are stronger than Premieres and sometimes don't like a signal of 100. Just search for attenuator and read the posts.


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Roamio only has digital tuners where as earlier models, (Premiere, Series 3) has both analog and digital tuners. So, those 6 channels that you can get on the Series 3 but not on the Roamio could be analog. There are still analog OTA channels available, but only operating on low power.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

Re: splitter, I would assume that it's an amplified splitter to reduce signal loss

Re: small distribution amp, I have tried both with and without that already and it doesn't seem to have helped at all.

Re: analog vs digital channels, I'm aware of the difference and these are definitely digital channels.

My next plan is try a pre-amp on the roof mounted antenna to see if I can get more stability.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

In my personal experience, I found the tuners on my Roamio to be as good as my old HD, and better than my Premier.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I don't have the Roamio OTA but I do have the base Roamio and also have TiVoHD and Premiere and all seem to work about the same with my antenna on the roof and as well or better than any other tuners in house.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I don't have the Roamio OTA but I do have the base Roamio and also have TiVoHD and Premiere and all seem to work about the same with my antenna on the roof and as well or better than any other tuners in house.


That's OK, because the Roamio OTA is just a basic with it's cablecard connector housing ripped out and a nice green, silk screened "Roamio OTA" logo on the front.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

I've found the OTA tuner in the Roamio to be as good, or slightly better than my Series3 or TivoHD. Supposedly the S3 is better than the THD, but I have not observed a difference.

This is simultaneously hooked up to the same antenna system.

My observations are not based on the signal meter, but based on when a few of the weaker signals in my area fade out. A while back, I had a recording on one of the weak channels during some pretty good storm activity. During the hour long show, the Roamio's recording lost signal/pixelated through about 60 seconds of the show, and the S3 for about 90 seconds. Thus, for about 30 seconds of that time, the Roamio was able to maintain signal where the S3 was not.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

Interesting. Because not only am I using the same antenna system, I put the Roamio OTA at the exact same spot in the house - meaning using the exact same cabling - and I'm missing 6 channels and several of the ones that came in really strong just don't any more. And I'm not talking about the signal meter either. I'm talking about pixelation in the broadcasts.

Unlucky me, I guess.


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## Mr Tony (Dec 20, 2012)

ThAbtO said:


> Roamio only has digital tuners where as earlier models, (Premiere, Series 3) has both analog and digital tuners. So, those 6 channels that you can get on the Series 3 but not on the Roamio could be analog. There are still analog OTA channels available, but only operating on low power.


oh crap. I was just going to ask about that
Where I live our ABC and a FOX station (I have access to 2 FOX networks) are still analog via translators. I have a HD and a OTA Roamio with 2 different zips in it. My HD has the "local" zip and the Roamio has my old zip in it because sometimes those stations (being 90 miles away) do come in (and gives me the subchannels I don't have locally). I thought of switching the zips on them (since I do record more from the local stations) but if I can't view my ABC (even though its analog) then its a moot point


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

I don't know what happened last night, but I had a show on the local CBS channel that faded out badly (this channel does not usually do this). The recording of this show on the roamio was 39 minutes (out of an hour), and the recording on a THD was 31 minutes, so the Roamio held in 8 minutes longer on borderline signal.

I guess it's time to climb the tower and replace the 30 year old antenna


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## hhh222 (Jul 28, 2005)

The tuners are definitely weaker in the roamio than in the Series 3. I have signals in the 90's on my S3 and tried 2 roamio ota's and neither got over 72. I rarely got any picture breakup on the S3 and got them too frequently on the roamio. 

A tivo tech told me it's because the roamio is all digital but that doesn't make sense to me, but then again, what do i know


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

hhh222 said:


> The tuners are definitely weaker in the roamio than in the Series 3. I have signals in the 90's on my S3 and tried 2 roamio ota's and neither got over 72. I rarely got any picture breakup on the S3 and got them too frequently on the roamio.
> 
> A tivo tech told me it's because the roamio is all digital but that doesn't make sense to me, but then again, what do i know


I don't think that's really true. I think it's more likely the *signal numbers* are re-aligned to a different scale on the Roamio.

IE: 72 on Tivo = 100% on my tv set that's hooked to the same antenna system, on the second output of a 2-way splitter.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

MikeBear said:


> I don't think that's really true. I think it's more likely the signal numbers are re-aligned to a different scale on the Roamio. IE: 72 on Tivo = 100% on my tv set that's hooked to the same antenna system, on the second output of a 2-way splitter.


And the Roamio has four tuners to share that one antenna signal feed while your TV has but one!


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

HarperVision said:


> And the Roamio has four tuners to share that one antenna signal feed while your TV has but one!


I've heard that the four tuners are fed by an internal POWERED (not passive) 4-way splitter. Is that not true?

I would expect the 4 tuners in the Tivo to read much lower on each ones signal level, (than what people are seeing now) *if* that signal wasn't boosted through internal gain.

Too many people are slapping up these tiny flat UHF only antennas, and expect it to work as well as just like hooking it up to a cable signal that's hot enough to practically blow the tv set up.


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## henryr10 (Aug 20, 2015)

I recently added a Antennas Direct ClearStream4 HDTV Antenna to replace a 30 year old Channelmaster. On my 5 year old Panasonic Viera I am getting 55 channels here in Cincinnati including all the Dayton stations which are about 50 miles north of us.

Yesterday I added the TiVi OTA, my first experience w/ TiVo.
I'm running it via HDMI thru an Onkyo Receiver.
Same 55 channels thru the OTA, all in HD, all in Dolby. Well where it's broadcast that way....lol!
I am currently recording one Dayton station and one local during a fairly heavy rain. So I have to say the tuners work just fine. Well and of course so does the antennae setup.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

MikeBear said:


> I've heard that the four tuners are fed by an internal POWERED (not passive) 4-way splitter. Is that not true? I would expect the 4 tuners in the Tivo to read much lower on each ones signal level, (than what people are seeing now) if that signal wasn't boosted through internal gain. Too many people are slapping up these tiny flat UHF only antennas, and expect it to work as well as just like hooking it up to a cable signal that's hot enough to practically blow the tv set up.


I'm pretty sure the four tuner OTA and base Roamio do not have the amp internally, while the 6 tuner plus and pro do. There was a prior discussion regarding this and differing signal levels between the models a few months to a couple years ago, IIRC.

Even so, an amp can only do so much and it just amplifies the signal AND the noise equally, so a 90% signal level after an amplifier does NOT equal the quality and integrity of say a straight from the transmitter over the air into the antenna 90% signal level. Having a pre-amp at the antenna and then maybe another straight amp inside before any splitters, etc. is a bit better and somewhere between those two.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> Even so, an amp can only do so much and it just amplifies the signal AND the noise equally, so a 90% signal level after an amplifier does NOT equal the quality and integrity of say a straight from the transmitter over the air into the antenna 90% signal level. Having a pre-amp at the antenna and then maybe another straight amp inside before any splitters, etc. is a bit better and somewhere between those two.


Certainly true. However, a passive 2-way splitter also imposes a *HUGE* loss of signal (3.5db, or roughly 50%). For a 4-way split, it's actually more like 25% of the original signal at each output. The idea behind an amplified splitter is to "turn up the volume" (so to speak) before running it through a device that is known to muffle whatever goes into it. I'm extremely skeptical that TiVo would knowingly take a signal split 4-ways and allow it to end up at only 25% strength at each of the outputs.

Perhaps the amp in the 6-tuner is better than the one in the 4-tuner. But it's really hard for me to believe that there's no amplified splitter in the 4-tuner model. That would be a huge design failure.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mjh said:


> Certainly true. However, a passive 2-way splitter also imposes a *HUGE* loss of signal (3.5db, or roughly 50%). For a 4-way split, it's actually more like 25% of the original signal at each output. The idea behind an amplified splitter is to "turn up the volume" (so to speak) before running it through a device that is known to muffle whatever goes into it. I'm extremely skeptical that TiVo would knowingly take a signal split 4-ways and allow it to end up at only 25% strength at each of the outputs. Perhaps the amp in the 6-tuner is better than the one in the 4-tuner. But it's really hard for me to believe that there's no amplified splitter in the 4-tuner model. That would be a huge design failure.


There were threads and posts about this shortly after the Roamios came out and if memory serves, I'm fairly certain the base doesn't have an amp. Do some research if you're skeptical I guess. I'm not going to waste my time researching since I'm 99% certain myself.

An easy way to see is to connect a base and a plus/pro to the same cable line and note it's signal,levels on the same channels. You'll see the 6 tuners have much higher signal levels. This test has been done already previously like I mentioned.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

Firstly, I think thus far it's an unproven assumption that a "4 tuner" tivo is splitting the signal 4 ways. It may very well be that's the way it works, but has anyone shown that for certain? 

Is there actually 4 physical tuners on this board, or is what we've been calling "4 tuners" a single tuner capable of simultaneously tuning 4 digital channels? In which case the signal's not actually being "split".

I'm not saying any of what I've suggested is right, I'm just suggesting it's worth re-evalutating some of the assumptions in the discussion. I can take marginal stations that barely come in on my roamio, and move that cable from the roamio to the digital tuner TV. That's a single tuner, therefore (theoretically) 4x the signal strength as the roamio, yet the channel won't come in any better. I just think there's an unproven assumption or two in this thread.


I don't think comparison to the 6 tuner model bears any relevance. The 4 tuner model is OTA capable, which may need to pull in a RF broadcast signal. The 6 tuner is capable only of cable, which while it is a transmission, it's not a broadcast, and that transmission on the line is maintained at proper signal strength by the cableco. There's just not nearly as much reason in that case for signal strength to be a metric of any reasonable importance.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

CrashHD said:


> Firstly, I think thus far it's an unproven assumption that a "4 tuner" tivo is splitting the signal 4 ways. It may very well be that's the way it works, but has anyone shown that for certain?
> 
> Is there actually 4 physical tuners on this board, or is what we've been calling "4 tuners" a single tuner capable of simultaneously tuning 4 digital channels? In which case the signal's not actually being "split".
> 
> ...


I agree. As an EE with RF background, it seem to me quite unlikely that there is anything inside the Roamio base/OTA that acts like a 4-way splitter. It is more likely that there is a single receiver and 75-ohm termination with internal buffering so that all four tuners have essentially the same signal level that appears on the RF connector. The four tuners would then each have their own AGC circuit (automatic gain control) to adjust the tuned signal to the proper level for converting the signal to a digital data stream.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

CrashHD said:


> Firstly, I think thus far it's an unproven assumption that a "4 tuner" tivo is splitting the signal 4 ways. It may very well be that's the way it works, but has anyone shown that for certain? Is there actually 4 physical tuners on this board, or is what we've been calling "4 tuners" a single tuner capable of simultaneously tuning 4 digital channels? In which case the signal's not actually being "split". I'm not saying any of what I've suggested is right, I'm just suggesting it's worth re-evalutating some of the assumptions in the discussion. I can take marginal stations that barely come in on my roamio, and move that cable from the roamio to the digital tuner TV. That's a single tuner, therefore (theoretically) 4x the signal strength as the roamio, yet the channel won't come in any better. I just think there's an unproven assumption or two in this thread. I don't think comparison to the 6 tuner model bears any relevance. The 4 tuner model is OTA capable, which may need to pull in a RF broadcast signal. The 6 tuner is capable only of cable, which while it is a transmission, it's not a broadcast, and that transmission on the line is maintained at proper signal strength by the cableco. There's just not nearly as much reason in that case for signal strength to be a metric of any reasonable importance.





snerd said:


> I agree. As an EE with RF background, it seem to me quite unlikely that there is anything inside the Roamio base/OTA that acts like a 4-way splitter. It is more likely that there is a single receiver and 75-ohm termination with internal buffering so that all four tuners have essentially the same signal level that appears on the RF connector. The four tuners would then each have their own AGC circuit (automatic gain control) to adjust the tuned signal to the proper level for converting the signal to a digital data stream.


While I'm not doubting what you're saying and your knowledge, I also come from an RF background (TV and Radio Broadcasting) so what I'm confused about is how you can then tune into four completely separate digital channels/frequencies without having four different tuner/demodulators? 

I could see your suggestions for maybe one channel that has many subchannels since they're broadcast on the same "channel" and center freq, but how would what you're saying work with four totally separate ones?


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

HarperVision said:


> While I'm not doubting what you're saying and your knowledge, I also come from an RF background (TV and Radio Broadcasting) so what I'm confused about is how you can then tune into four completely separate digital channels/frequencies without having four different tuner/demodulators?
> 
> I could see your suggestions for maybe one channel that has many subchannels since they're broadcast on the same "channel" and center freq, but how would what you're saying work with four totally separate ones?


There are four different tuner/demodulators, but they can all be fed from a single buffer amplifier without using splitters inside the TiVo. I'm guessing that these components are all inside a single integrated circuit that receives the signal from the RF connector, with a 75-ohm terminated broadband buffer amplifier at the front end so that the coax feeding the TiVo is properly terminated, then that buffer drives the four tuners which each select the appropriate slice of the spectrum to amplify further and convert to a digital data stream.

The external coax needs splitters because coax covers large distances, and the splitters ensure that everything is impedance matched and properly terminated in order to avoid reflections, and to evenly divide the RF power at each splitter. This has a lot to due with the physical size of the coax, where any single segment can be many wavelengths of a given channel frequency, so the signal at the input side of the coax has a different phase than the same signal of the output end of the coax. Inside the muti-channel RF receiver chip, the dimensions are small enough that the signals on a single wire have the same phase at both ends, so that none of the nodes inside the chip need to be treated as transmission lines.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

snerd said:


> There are four different tuner/demodulators, but they can all be fed from a single buffer amplifier without using splitters inside the TiVo. I'm guessing that these components are all inside a single integrated circuit that receives the signal from the RF connector, with a 75-ohm terminated broadband buffer amplifier at the front end so that the coax feeding the TiVo is properly terminated, then that buffer drives the four tuners which each select the appropriate slice of the spectrum to amplify further and convert to a digital data stream.


Wow, it HAS been a long time since I've been through school and was a broadcaster and transmitter engineer! 



snerd said:


> The external coax needs splitters because coax covers large distances, and the splitters ensure that everything is impedance matched and properly terminated in order to avoid reflections, and to evenly divide the RF power at each splitter. This has a lot to due with the physical size of the coax, where any single segment can be many wavelengths of a given channel frequency, so the signal at the input side of the coax has a different phase than the same signal of the output end of the coax. Inside the muti-channel RF receiver chip, the dimensions are small enough that the signals on a single wire have the same phase at both ends, so that none of the nodes inside the chip need to be treated as transmission lines.


Finally something I get what you're saying haha!


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## phughes200 (Jul 24, 2014)

I also found the tuners on my Roamio to be far better than my old Premier.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

HarperVision said:


> While I'm not doubting what you're saying and your knowledge, I also come from an RF background (TV and Radio Broadcasting) so what I'm confused about is how you can then tune into four completely separate digital channels/frequencies without having four different tuner/demodulators?
> 
> I could see your suggestions for maybe one channel that has many subchannels since they're broadcast on the same "channel" and center freq, but how would what you're saying work with four totally separate ones?





snerd said:


> There are four different tuner/demodulators, but they can all be fed from a single buffer amplifier without using splitters inside the TiVo. I'm guessing that these components are all inside a single integrated circuit that receives the signal from the RF connector, with a 75-ohm terminated broadband buffer amplifier at the front end so that the coax feeding the TiVo is properly terminated, then that buffer drives the four tuners which each select the appropriate slice of the spectrum to amplify further and convert to a digital data stream.
> 
> The external coax needs splitters because coax covers large distances, and the splitters ensure that everything is impedance matched and properly terminated in order to avoid reflections, and to evenly divide the RF power at each splitter. This has a lot to due with the physical size of the coax, where any single segment can be many wavelengths of a given channel frequency, so the signal at the input side of the coax has a different phase than the same signal of the output end of the coax. Inside the muti-channel RF receiver chip, the dimensions are small enough that the signals on a single wire have the same phase at both ends, so that none of the nodes inside the chip need to be treated as transmission lines.


 Thanks guys! This has been very enlightening.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

I finally raised a support ticket with TiVo on this issue. I'm seeing pixelation on a broadcast tower that is only 5 miles away from my house. Tivo suggested that I gather some numbers from the Tivo Diagnostics screen.

Tuner: 3
Modulation: 8-VSB
Channel: 18-1
Signal Strength: 72%
SNR: 29dB
RS corrected: 0
RS uncorrected:0

Tuner: 1
Modulation: 8-VSB
Channel: 9-1
Signal Strength: 62%
SNR: 25 dB
RS corrected: 0
RS Uncorrected: 4737

When I sent this to Tivo, they said that I should expect to see a minimum signal strength of 80% and a SNR of 32-34dB. If I can't get 100% signal strength on these channels I'm not getting 100% on any channels. I can see these towers from my roof!

On my HDXL the signal strength was pegged at 100% for these channels. I'm convinced that there's something wrong with the tuners in my OTA.

Is there something that I'm missing? Is there something else that I should be looking at to further confirm or refute my guess? I thought about the possibility that the towers are too close and overpowering my tuners. But there's not a single channel that I receive that has a signal strength greater than about 72% ever. Could those close towers cause the tuners to not be able to receive futher towers with strong signal?

Thanks.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mjh said:


> I finally raised a support ticket with TiVo on this issue. I'm seeing pixelation on a broadcast tower that is only 5 miles away from my house. Tivo suggested that I gather some numbers from the Tivo Diagnostics screen. Tuner: 3 Modulation: 8-VSB Channel: 18-1 Signal Strength: 72% SNR: 29dB RS corrected: 0 RS uncorrected:0 Tuner: 1 Modulation: 8-VSB Channel: 9-1 Signal Strength: 62% SNR: 25 dB RS corrected: 0 RS Uncorrected: 4737 When I sent this to Tivo, they said that I should expect to see a minimum signal strength of 80% and a SNR of 32-34dB. If I can't get 100% signal strength on these channels I'm not getting 100% on any channels. I can see these towers from my roof! On my HDXL the signal strength was pegged at 100% for these channels. I'm convinced that there's something wrong with the tuners in my OTA. Is there something that I'm missing? Is there something else that I should be looking at to further confirm or refute my guess? I thought about the possibility that the towers are too close and overpowering my tuners. But there's not a single channel that I receive that has a signal strength greater than about 72% ever. Could those close towers cause the tuners to not be able to receive futher towers with strong signal? Thanks.


I think the CSR from TiVo is confusing the cable and OTA signal strengths. I can see maybe 80 being optimal as a minimum level when you're in a cable feed, but the OTA signals can be in the 60's and be fine. I have a couple in that range.

As far as comparing your PXL with the OTA, just remember the PXL only has 2 tuners and the OTA has 4 so there may be some smaller smaller numbers.

To me what stands out in your tuner numbers are the lower SNR and the high RS uncorrected on tuner 2.


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

I live across the bay from San Francisco and the Sutro Tower is there as well. 

My Basic Roamio basically gets 72% on most of all the channels, but a few weaker channels get around 62% and I just use the rooftop antenna. It seems 72% about the highest it will go on Roamio. The S3 gets 100% with its 2 tuners.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

ThAbtO said:


> I live across the bay from San Francisco and the Sutro Tower is there as well.
> 
> My Basic Roamio basically gets 72% on most of all the channels, but a few weaker channels get around 62% and I just use the rooftop antenna. It seems 72% about the highest it will go on Roamio. The S3 gets 100% with its 2 tuners.


I stipulate that the diagnostics on the Roamio are broken, cable and OTA. This is bad. If several people say that 72 is the highest, I have no reason to doubt them. I also note that RS Corrected is always zero on my Roamio, but RS Uncorrected can be several hundred per week. The Premiere has dozens of each.

I have a two tuner Premiere and four tuner Roamio on the same feed with the only difference being the last meter of RG-6, here's what I see:

Premiere 75 to 85, SNR 35/36 dB, OOB SNR 3dB
Roamio 87/90 and SNR 35/36 dB, OOB SNR 358 dB

Something is wrong, and TiVo support doesn't know it. Without tools, it's really hard to find the problem. Some people report 100 when they have errors. Why?


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

I have a couple of blow-torch OTA stations, and I have NEVER seen them go higher that 72, with SNR of 29. That's on a base Roamio. You will never get them higher on OTA.

Tivo CSR's are always quoting CABLE signal levels, and they know NOTHING about OTA reception whatsoever.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> I think the CSR from TiVo is confusing the cable and OTA signal strengths.


Right. That makes sense to me.


> As far as comparing your PXL with the OTA


Just a minor nit: I was comparing my S3 HDXL w/the OTA since both were using the exact same wiring. The Premiere (not XL) was in a different room, where the mini currently is. I put the OTA where I did because it's a shorter cable distance to the antenna in that location.


> To me what stands out in your tuner numbers are the lower SNR and the high RS uncorrected on tuner 2.


Yeah don't get caught up on the tuner. I can force the channel onto a different tuner an get the same results. These channels are broadcast from two towers that are pretty close to each other. And yet 9-1 has high RS Uncorrected and 18-1 never has any.



ThAbtO said:


> My Basic Roamio basically gets 72% on most of all the channels, but a few weaker channels get around 62% and I just use the rooftop antenna. It seems 72% about the highest it will go on Roamio. The S3 gets 100% with its 2 tuners.


Ok. So if 72% is the max that anyone is seeing on an OTA, that suggests that mine is basically behaving like everyone else's. Sigh.

I guess the next question is: how do I fix this? I have an Antennas Direct CS2 on my roof. I have never needed a preamp before. Is that my next step?


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

What do you want to do? Is your main problem the fact that 9-1 has uncorrected errors?

My channel 12-1 is *VHF* (39 miles away), has an SNR of 29, and frequently gets uncorrected errors. I have an outside antenna, that shoots through a 85' tall heavy tree-line. I also have it on a 24db Kitztech preamp. My channel 5-1 is UHF, has an SNR of 29, and NEVER seems to get uncorrected errors.

VHF is very susceptible to electrical noise, and leaves fluttering, powerful nearby FM stations broadcasting, etc. I had to unplug a Harbor Freight $20 battery tender, and my Dell laptop power brick, as both of those were broadcasting interference that affected this channel. I also had to put an FM filter before my preamp. FM stations are frequently broadcasting with higher levels than tv stations. A harmonic could destroy reception on VHF 9.

What is YOUR channel 9-1? Is that also broadcast *VHF*? Perhaps you have some power brick causes issues, or a bad transformer out on a pole, a very close FM station broadcasting around channel 94.5~ mHz etc...


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

I have two goals

Be able to receive 9-1 without frequent pixelation. That's an ABC station and I watch a number of shows on it.
Be able to receive the 2 stations that I could receive on my previous tivo without much issue (WFMY, WGHP)
As far 9-1, it's a UHF.


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## Fusillade (Jan 4, 2014)

MikeBear said:


> I have a couple of blow-torch OTA stations, and I have NEVER seen them go higher that 72, with SNR of 29. That's on a base Roamio. You will never get them higher on OTA.
> 
> Tivo CSR's are always quoting CABLE signal levels, and they know NOTHING about OTA reception whatsoever.


Good to see that I am not the only one getting only 72.

I reported a channel issue to TiVo when I first installed my system and they insisted that I needed to amplify my OTA input to achieve a signal level greater than 80 to correct the problem. So I tried 4 different amplifiers and still never improved my signal above 72. To make matters worse, any amplifier above 10 dB would cause weird behavior such as duplicate channel signals. I gave up, removed the amplifier, and 10 months later, after a TiVo software upgrade, my problem went away. Amazing.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Fusillade said:


> Good to see that I am not the only one getting only 72.
> 
> I reported a channel issue to TiVo when I first installed my system and they insisted that I needed to amplify my OTA input to achieve a signal level greater than 80 to correct the problem. So I tried 4 different amplifiers and still never improved my signal above 72. To make matters worse, any amplifier above 10 dB would cause weird behavior such as duplicate channel signals. I gave up, removed the amplifier, and 10 months later, after a TiVo software upgrade, my problem went away. Amazing.


Still at 72?


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## ChrisFix (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm back in the TiVo fold after a 6 year break, with a new Roamio Basic that I'm using for OTA. 
Every station reports 72, except one, which is at 73...but all have perfect reception all the time - and always had with SageTV/HDHomeRun and Tablo 4 Tuner devices.
HDHomeRun reported 98-99 for these same stations BTW.
So even though my Roamio reports all of these at 72, they look amazing and I have zero reception issues. 
I think I'm just going to ignore their number system!

And just FYI, I have an attic mounted DB8 with my principal antenna farm about 22 miles from my home. Antenna has a drop straight down the attic into a structured wiring box and connects to two cable runs to the same entertainment center where they are connected to a Tablo 4 Tuner and the Roamio Basic. I use an PCT two way dist amp as my splitter in the wiring box. All coax is quad shield and all terminations are new PPC compression fittings.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=db8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001BMKNZI?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s01
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FNX8V3C?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00


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## OTAR (Sep 13, 2015)

I suspect the Levels are just Relative Numbers to compare 1 Station to another, not Absolute Measurements. You may be able to compare the same model boxes to each other, but I suspect different models will not compare accurately.

The Errors could be from Multipath. You could have a Very Strong Signal, but you could also have a reflected signal of similar strength arriving at slightly different times, causing the signals to interfere with each other. They could show high signal strength, but be almost (or even completely) unusable.

I would try attenuators (10 to 25DB) at the Antenna Connection on the TIVO and/or repositioning the Antenna to try and make either of the signals become the "Dominant" Signal.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

Fusillade said:


> I reported a channel issue to TiVo when I first installed my system and they insisted that I needed to amplify my OTA input to achieve a signal level greater than 80 to correct the problem. So I tried 4 different amplifiers and still never improved my signal above 72.


This is my fear, that I could try and increase the signal, but that the Roamio won't actually report any increased signal strength, and consequently tivo support won't actually try to resolve the problem.


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## Peter G (Jan 3, 2012)

The OTA signal strength meter on Roamio is not directly comparable to any other device including other TiVo units. It is a relative scale.

I have found that decent reception requires a value of 50+, and 60 is really desired for clean steady reception with minimal pixelation. It is more important to have a steady signal level than the highest level. Better to have steady 57 than fluctuating from 60-70. Fluctuating signal indicates a multi-path problem I think - it was much worse with the Premiere tuners.

As noted above, highest OTA levels will be in the 70's. I think I peaked at 85 on one local channel with the antenna pointed just right. But it settles down to 60-70 range.

Peter G


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

So I've got a somewhat happy result. I switched the port on my distribution amplifier that is going to the TiVo and I'm getting a *LOT* fewer RS Uncorrected errors, which means 9-1 is much more reliable.

I still can't get 2-1 and 8-1 which I used to get pretty good on previous TiVo, but this is certainly an improvement given that the tower for 9-1 is only 5 mi away.


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## Ieolus (Oct 20, 2006)

mjh said:


> So I've got a somewhat happy result. I switched the port on my distribution amplifier that is going to the TiVo and I'm getting a *LOT* fewer RS Uncorrected errors, which means 9-1 is much more reliable.
> 
> I still can't get 2-1 and 8-1 which I used to get pretty good on previous TiVo, but this is certainly an improvement given that the tower for 9-1 is only 5 mi away.


Could your amp be bad, or going bad?


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

I think there must be an Automatic Gain Control in each Roamio OTA tuner, and 72 indicates a "perfect" signal, because of these observations:

If I am measuring the signal strength of a weak channel, say around 55, and then change to the strongest channel I get, it will initially shoot up to 90 or so. But then in the next 10-15 seconds, it will slowly come back down and settle on 72. Then I turn to the weak channel, it will initially read very low, 40 or so. Within a few seconds it then will climb back up to the original reading around 55. Try it and see. The AGC is adjusting the signal up or down trying to get as close to 72 as possible.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Lurker1 said:


> I think there must be an Automatic Gain Control in each Roamio OTA tuner, and 72 indicates a "perfect" signal, because of these observations:
> 
> If I am measuring the signal strength of a weak channel, say around 55, and then change to the strongest channel I get, it will initially shoot up to 90 or so. But then in the next 10-15 seconds, it will slowly come back down and settle on 72. Then I turn to the weak channel, it will initially read very low, 40 or so. Within a few seconds it then will climb back up to the original reading around 55. Try it and see. The AGC is adjusting the signal up or down trying to get as close to 72 as possible.


I think that is an accurate assessment of the current situation. If I might add, I see identical conditions on cable except the magic number is 90. Hence the tendency of TiVo CS to think 90 is perfect.

When viewing the "TiVo box Diagnostics", the signal appears after the settle has happened. When viewing the Signal Strength, you see the AGC in action.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Lurker1 said:


> I think there must be an Automatic Gain Control in each Roamio OTA tuner, and 72 indicates a "perfect" signal, because of these observations: If I am measuring the signal strength of a weak channel, say around 55, and then change to the strongest channel I get, it will initially shoot up to 90 or so. But then in the next 10-15 seconds, it will slowly come back down and settle on 72. Then I turn to the weak channel, it will initially read very low, 40 or so. Within a few seconds it then will climb back up to the original reading around 55. Try it and see. The AGC is adjusting the signal up or down trying to get as close to 72 as possible.





JoeKustra said:


> I think that is an accurate assessment of the current situation. If I might add, I see identical conditions on cable except the magic number is 90. Hence the tendency of TiVo CS to think 90 is perfect. When viewing the "TiVo box Diagnostics", the signal appears after the settle has happened. When viewing the Signal Strength, you see the AGC in action.


 Too funny, I was just about to post about this. I took a picture of my OTA signal strength screen and as you can see, and I saw, the signal went to a peak of 85 then backed down to that magic number of 72.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

Ieolus said:


> Could your amp be bad, or going bad?


Not ruling that out. But apart from buying a brand new amp and testing, how would I know?


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## gftgall (Jan 14, 2004)

I have cable and had similar problems. My RS Uncorrected rates were very high also. The CSR told me that since all 4 tuners seemed to be having high rates, the problem was with Comcast. If it had been just one tuner that was high, I had a bad tuner. FYI. But I hope your problem has resolved itself.


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