# Lost 4/6/10 -- Happily Ever After



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

[Placeholder]

They're in the Matrix!


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> [Placeholder]
> 
> They're in the Matrix!


And love makes you Neo!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I think I already did.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Ok, I consider myself a die hard LOST fan. I've never missed a minute of the entire series.

That said, I feel really foolish for saying this.

After tonight's episode, I have NO idea what is going on. I'm thoroughly confused.

Are these separate realities merging? I hesitate to call them "timelines". Everything is twisted. Eloise Hawking is Eloise Widmore, and Faraday isn't Faraday, he's also a Widmore, and a musician to boot? How did he so quickly determine he must have set off a nuclear bomb?

What is Desmond's intention with the Flight 815 manifest? Is he going to run around telling everyone their lives aren't real?

And maybe this is stupid, but for the life of me - I can't remember how Jin ended up with Widmore's group?

And why did Sayid display compassion for what's her name, and tell her to run...and why did Desmond willingly go along with him?

Ok enough questions for now. I'm going to go take an aspirin and lay down.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Note that as soon as he touched her hand, he snapped back - because she is his constant.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

TiVotion said:


> Ok, I consider myself a die hard LOST fan. I've never missed a minute of the entire series.
> 
> That said, I feel really foolish for saying this.
> 
> ...


The producers have always insisted that they are not alternate timelines. It seems as what happened as that in order to save everyone, they somehow created a fake reality in which everyone gets what they want. But it's not real, and some people are beginning to see that it's not real.



> Everything is twisted. Eloise Hawking is Eloise Widmore, and Faraday isn't Faraday, he's also a Widmore, and a musician to boot? How did he so quickly determine he must have set off a nuclear bomb?


We've long known that Daniel Farraday is the son of Charles Widmore and Eloise Hawking.



> What is Desmond's intention with the Flight 815 manifest? Is he going to run around telling everyone their lives aren't real?


Apparently.



> And maybe this is stupid, but for the life of me - I can't remember how Jin ended up with Widmore's group?


They kidnapped him last week.



> And why did Sayid display compassion for what's her name, and tell her to run...and why did Desmond willingly go along with him?


Sayid is a killer, but he probably didn't want to kill a woman.

Desmond knows that he's going to be ok, and he knows it b/c of the alternate timeline. . . er. . fake reality. So he'll just go along until whatever happens, happens.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Widmore's people stole Jin from Locke's camp in the last episode--the claim to need him because he is the one who drafted the blue prints for some of the Dhama stations during his stint in the 70's. 

As for the timelines, I'm not sure what's going on either. It would seem that they're blurring together, but I can't understand how Desmond was having memories of things that haven't even happened to regu-Des yet (Penny giving birth, "Not Penny's Boat", etc). Alterna-Des is still in 2004 yet his remember stuff not only his other self's life, but from stuff that happens in the future in that life. 

I also don't get how Faraday came to the conclusion that "this wasn't supposed to be our lives"--unless Alterna-Faraday had some previous experience with such a thing, it seems odd that not only did he figure it out, but that he concluded that he caused it by setting off a "nuclear bomb". 

I'm just kind of riding along right now in the hopes that it will one day make sense.


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

TiVotion said:


> And maybe this is stupid, but for the life of me - I can't remember how Jin ended up with Widmore's group?


back in the 70's when jin was working for dharma he was in charge of exploring the island and drawing maps marking the pockets of electromagnetic energy, in 2007 zoe has the maps with jin's signature on them, so they kidnapped him when they attacked locke's camp and knocked everyone out with the darts


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Wow.

Not surprising that Desmond is apparently the key to setting things right again.

But, wow!

(Good episode.)


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Many parrallels to the timeline we saw.

Who else was waiting for a piano or something to fall on someone when Desmond was talking to Elouise?

Desmond constantly trying to save Charlie from death. 

Great episode.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

I too feel very confused. 

Widmore said Desmond would have to make a sacrifice (for the island). I really don't want Desmond to die. 

And Penny's last name was Milton, i think...any clues with that as to who her mother is?


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

GODDAMMIT!!! Nobody told me when V was going to be on! 

Watching this episode, I felt a "click" in the tumblers. The producers aren't calling this an alternate timeline, because its not, its a false timeline. And people there know it: Eloise, Daniel, Charlie, and the driver (remind me, who did he play in Lost before?)

I think the roller coaster just hit the top of the hill, and the speed is picking up.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Wow ... An amazing episode. This episode had science, faith, love, great character moments, great score, series callbacks, and true connection between the two universes which was quite interesting and very emotional. This is what Lost more often than not does better than any other show (in my opinion, of course). Must watch again ...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> Ok, I consider myself a die hard LOST fan. I've never missed a minute of the entire series.
> 
> That said, I feel really foolish for saying this.
> 
> After tonight's episode, I have NO idea what is going on. I'm thoroughly confused.


It's ok.  You're amongst friends.



> Are these separate realities merging?


I dunno.. It's certainly pretty f'ed up that they can sense/see things from the other timeline/whatever.



> I hesitate to call them "timelines". Everything is twisted. Eloise Hawking is Eloise Widmore, and Faraday isn't Faraday, he's also a Widmore, and a musician to boot?


Eloise was with Charles in the original "timeline" - they had Daniel in both. The difference here was whether they got married. That explains Eloise and Daniel's last name. Daniel being a musician makes perfect sense (and was predictable) since Eloise would have no reason here to pressure him to quit music to work on his science studies as she did in the original timeline (where she only did it because he had so little time since she kills/ed him in the 70s).


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

the driver was george minkowski, he was the communications guy on the freighter at the start of season 4 who was answering naomi's calls


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Wow, I must have passed out last week. I totally remember the blow darts wiping out Flocke's camp, but for the life of me I didn't recall Jin getting kidnapped.

So...wait. Desmond was content and at peace with whatever Widmore has recruited him to do because he knows the "flash sideways" he flashed in and out of is really fake? But how does that make him sure that everything will be ok now in (and after) the back-on-island reality?

I guess I'm still not grasping how Widmore, with his magnetic contraption whooze-it, ties into the more seemingly mythological story of Jacob and MIB (who it would seem might be brothers).


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Early in the ep when Desmond was driving Charlie, right before the accident, they panned from the car to a guy walking on the pier for a couple of seconds.

I think that guy was an easter egg, but I can't figure out who he is.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

There were two men on the dock after the car went in. Can't figure why no one was there to help them out of the water.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> I guess I'm still not grasping how Widmore, with his magnetic contraption whooze-it, ties into the more seemingly mythological story of Jacob and MIB (who it would seem might be brothers).


There seem to be two things going on...the Jacob/MiB conflict, and the broken world problem. AFAIK, we haven't seen any connection between them yet. But I'm sure there is one.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Got it.

In math, the imaginary number i represents the square root of -1. That's not a real number - it's imaginary - but by giving it a name we can use it in equations in a meaningful way, as long as we later cancel it out by multiplying by i again, leaving us with -1 and no more imaginary numbers.

The sideways timeline is like i. It's imaginary, and the only reason it's ok that it exists is because it will eventually cancel out and never have actually existed. Desmond will gather people (as Lantham tried to) and somehow make some useful change that affects the real timeline, ending this one and replacing it with the other. The two universes perpetually flip flop back and forth, causing each other.


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Desmond will gather people (as *Lantham* tried to) and somehow make some useful change that affects the real timeline, ending this one and replacing it with the other. The two universes perpetually flip flop back and forth, causing each other.


I think you meant Bentham.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Maybe I knew it before but didn't really hit me until he said it. Daniel and Penny- half sister/brother. Jack and Claire also half sister/brother. 

I have to rewatch this one but man, what a great show! It went by too fast!


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Got it.
> 
> In math, the imaginary number i represents the square root of -1. That's not a real number - it's imaginary - but by giving it a name we can use it in equations in a meaningful way, as long as we later cancel it out by multiplying by i again, leaving us with -1 and no more imaginary numbers.
> 
> The sideways timeline is like i. It's imaginary, and the only reason it's ok that it exists is because it will eventually cancel out and never have actually existed. Desmond will gather people (as Lantham tried to) and somehow make some useful change that affects the real timeline, ending this one and replacing it with the other. The two universes perpetually flip flop back and forth, causing each other.


That's great! I like that a lot!!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

avery said:


> I think you meant Bentham.


Doh, thanks.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Who else expected Desmond to ask Minkowski to take him somewhere fun, like a carnival? (I totally expect to see him on a ferris wheel in the sideways).


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Who else expected Desmond to ask Minkowski to take him somewhere fun, like a carnival? (I totally expect to see him on a ferris wheel in the sideways).


I don't get it. But I love your "i" theory.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

robbhimself said:


> the driver was george minkowski, he was the communications guy on the freighter at the start of season 4 who was answering naomi's calls


Thank you! I knew he looked familiar.

I loved the whole bit with Charlie and Desmond in the water. Just awesome. The glass betweent them and then the hand on the glass. I got goosebumps.

Do you think Charlie knows more?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> Got it.
> 
> In math, the imaginary number i represents the square root of -1. That's not a real number - it's imaginary - but by giving it a name we can use it in equations in a meaningful way, as long as we later cancel it out by multiplying by i again, leaving us with -1 and no more imaginary numbers.
> 
> The sideways timeline is like i. It's imaginary, and the only reason it's ok that it exists is because it will eventually cancel out and never have actually existed. Desmond will gather people (as Lantham tried to) and somehow make some useful change that affects the real timeline, ending this one and replacing it with the other. The two universes perpetually flip flop back and forth, causing each other.


Perhaps my favorite JKeegan post ever. :up:

But who's Lantham?

Edit: Never mind the question. Answered already.


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## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

Cindy1230 said:


> And Penny's last name was Milton, i think...any clues with that as to who her mother is?


That's what I thought too, at first....but I replayed it and now I think they were just reading off a list of peoples' first names, one of which was Penny, and another was Milton...

I also noticed this was the most time spent in the "sideways" reality this season. I'm guessing that, as some others have said above, the sideways reality isn't real and we're starting to see that people's lives aren't necessarily better in that reality. Or another theory: maybe it's not so much that it isn't real, but that it isn't the _only_ reality that can exist - in other words, maybe it doesn't have to be the island reality vs. the sideways reality. This is just a crazy-ass theory, but I'm thinking that somehow the island reality and the sideways need to be merged somehow. I just can't imagine why else they would spend so much show time showing a reality that in the end will not be "real".


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

rlc1 said:


> That's what I thought too, at first....but I replayed it and now I think they were just reading off a list of peoples' first names, one of which was Penny, and another was Milton...
> 
> I also noticed this was the most time spent in the "sideways" reality this season. I'm guessing that, as some others have said above, the sideways reality isn't real and we're starting to see that people's lives aren't necessarily better in that reality. Or another theory: maybe it's not so much that it isn't real, but that it isn't the _only_ reality that can exist - in other words, maybe it doesn't have to be the island reality vs. the sideways reality. This is just a crazy-ass theory, but I'm thinking that somehow the island reality and the sideways need to be merged somehow. I just can't imagine why else they would spend so much show time showing a reality that in the end will not be "real".


I think her last name was Milton.

I think that's why they made a point of using a philosopher's name.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> I don't get it. But I love your "i" theory.


On the freighter, Minkowski woke from one of his flashes (the dame flashes Desmond has) and said "I was on a ferris wheel!"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

rlc1 said:


> That's what I thought too, at first....but I replayed it and now I think they were just reading off a list of peoples' first names, one of which was Penny, and another was Milton...


No, I think it was Penny Milton. In the fake world, Widmore married Eloise, not Penny's mother. So in the fake world, it's Daniel and not Penny who is a Widmore, and Penny not Daniel who's just a little bastard.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Early in the ep when Desmond was driving Charlie, right before the accident, they panned from the car to a guy walking on the pier for a couple of seconds.
> 
> I think that guy was an easter egg, but I can't figure out who he is.


Yeah, he doesn't look familiar(I was hoping he was Jacob):











TiVotion said:


> ...And why did Sayid display compassion for what's her name, and tell her to run...and why did Desmond willingly go along with him?...


As far as Desmond knows, Sayid is a friend.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> There seem to be two things going on...the Jacob/MiB conflict, and the broken world problem. AFAIK, we haven't seen any connection between them yet. But I'm sure there is one.


Agreed -- they don't seem to be related, but like you, I'm guessing we will find out that they are.



betts4 said:


> Maybe I knew it before but didn't really hit me until he said it. Daniel and Penny- half *sister*/brother. Jack and Claire also half *sister*/brother. ...


OK, when Desmond went into the MRI machine, I paused my DVR to see if our favorite numbers were on the console above. But oddly enough, they didn't seem to be our numbers:









So I put my phone up to the screen to see if they said anything in reverse, and, judge for yourself, but doesn't that look like the word "sister" there?









I have no idea if it means anything, though. 

What other show would even make me think of such a thing?!


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> On the freighter, Minkowski woke from one of his flashes (the dame flashes Desmond has) and said "I was on a ferris wheel!"


Ah. I didn't get it either.

Of course, I'd half forgotten Fisher Stevens had even been on the show until he turned up again tonight.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Liked seeing Widmore offer Desmond MkKutchen's(did I remember the name right?)


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## McGonigle (Nov 7, 2001)

This episode confused me too. And making it more confusing was Desmond's facial hair while talking to Eloise. I noticed he had stubble when I thought he was clean shaven before. Then when he's talking to Daniel, he's clean shaven again and I'm like WTF? Was I imagining things? i


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

I liked the painting of the scales in Widmore's office. Reminded me of the scales in MIB's cave.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I think they are sharing a collective sub conscious ....Charlie wanted to do anything he could to get back to the near death moment when he 'knew' Claire


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Early in the ep when Desmond was driving Charlie, right before the accident, they panned from the car to a guy walking on the pier for a couple of seconds.
> 
> I think that guy was an easter egg, but I can't figure out who he is.


I rewound too. Don't recognize the person. So, I think they were focusing on that dock - the sailboats in the background. Maybe that's where Desmond's boat was? (where Ben shot him)


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

T-Wolves said:


> What other show would even make me think of such a thing?!


Yes!!! Isn't it amazing.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Okay. WTF just happened?


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, I think it was Penny Milton. In the fake world, Widmore married Eloise, not Penny's mother. So in the fake world, it's Daniel and not Penny who is a Widmore, and Penny not Daniel who's just a little bastard.


Yes, the closed caption said it was Penny Milton.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

So Charlie almost dies in our sideways world and he sees Claire. Juliet dies on the island and she came back with info about the sideways world? How are these connected? 

Seems like sideways Desmond is going to try and get all the people on the plane together and see who else has "seen" anything.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Has it been established yet the length of time between when the Oceanic Six got on the plane till now?

Desmond had been drugged asleep for 3 days...if Widmore is able to find it that easy, why was so hard for the Eloise and Oceanic Six?


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

To me, it seemed like Desmond was different when he woke up in the coil room. It seemed a lot like when Locke was "reborn" on the island as Smokey...


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

My favorite piece of dialogue in this episode was Eloise saying to Desmond shortly after she allegedly met him for the first time:

"It's about time."

Ain't that the truth, Eloise! It IS about time. Second favorite piece of dialogue was a few seconds later when she was explaining to him she wasn't angry that Driveshaft couldn't play:

"Whatever happened, happened."

Heh, there was at least an entire episode devoted to that concept.

Eloise clearly knows a lot about what's going on - she did a double take when she first "met" Desmond, so that was clearly *not* the first time she'd seen him.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Early in the ep when Desmond was driving Charlie, right before the accident, they panned from the car to a guy walking on the pier for a couple of seconds.
> 
> I think that guy was an easter egg, but I can't figure out who he is.





jkeegan said:


> I rewound too. Don't recognize the person. So, I think they were focusing on that dock - the sailboats in the background. Maybe that's where Desmond's boat was? (where Ben shot him)


I thought the guy might be someone too but I guess not.
I was also looking to see if _The Elizabeth_ was moored there.

So if things are not really better in the "alternate reality", Kate gets captured?

What if Detective James Ford, while gunning for Anthony Cooper, causes the death of Helen?

And is Widmore going to use Desmond as the Island's constant?


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> Yes, the closed caption said it was Penny Milton.


And she was attending the party "solo," so we know she's available! Go, Desmond, go!


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

dtle said:


> Has it been established yet the length of time between when the Oceanic Six got on the plane till now?
> 
> Desmond had been drugged asleep for 3 days...if Widmore is able to find it that easy, why was so hard for the Eloise and Oceanic Six?


I bet Widmore had help from Eloise.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> And why did Sayid display compassion for what's her name, and tell her to run...and why did Desmond willingly go along with him?


The cynical view is that he let her go because she still has a role to play in the plot. The non-cynical view is that Sayid's not an animal, and doesn't like killing women.

I think Desmond willingly went along with Sayid because Desmond knows (either from his two-timeline intuition or from talking with Widmore in a conversation we didn't see) that going with Sayid is part and parcel of the role he has to play in getting the timelines squared away.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Hey Desmond, when someone grabs the wheel you can step on the brakes if you like.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

So, Penny gets the same surname as the author of 'Paradise Lost'. Took them a while to assign that one.

Speaking of Penny, she doesn't have the legs of someone who likes to run giant flights of stairs. Still hot, though.

Anyone else recognize Eloise's broach as being the same design as Juliet's "mark"?

If the sideways world is manufactured, that would explain why everyone is bunched up in LA.

I wish Sayid had dispatched the entire nerd brigade, including Chubby and Tina. No such luck. I bet OSHA shuts them down before long.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> Eloise clearly knows a lot about what's going on - she did a double take when she first "met" Desmond, so that was clearly *not* the first time she'd seen him.


And of course when we first met her, she was the one who knew what was going on with Desmond jumping through time, and seemed to know more about it then than we do even today.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> So, Penny gets the same surname as the author of 'Paradise Lost'. Took them a while to assign that one.


Ahhhh! I had been so excited to point that out. In a spinoff thread, I expressed my excitement for a possibility of a Milton character (as Paradise Lost seems to fit into the show).

As a lifelong Milton, I welcome Penny into the fold.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

I was a bit floored when Desmond decided that going with Sayid seemed to be the thing to do (and he seemed nonplussed when Sayid killed a man right in front of him).

What is Desmond doing? 

I imagine that Desmond will have to choose which reality is permanent. Will he choose the fake reality where everyone lives "happily ever after" or the hard reality in which Daniel, Charlie, Minkowski, Sharon, Boone etc... are killed.

Do you think he will round up the whole gang and have them make that choice for themselves?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Hopefully not a smeek, but I did not see mention of the word "cabin".

The experiment "room" looked a hell of a lot like the cabin where "some guy" we assumed was Jacob was sitting in a chair -- just like Desmond. When Hurley(?) saw that "crazy eye" it looked very much like the opening sequence of this episode, where we see Demond's right eye at the start.

I'm guessing that it wasn't Jacob, but Desmond in that cabin.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Was I the only one waiting for George to say, "I am standing here beside myself?"


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Who else expected Desmond to ask Minkowski to take him somewhere fun, like a carnival? (I totally expect to see him on a ferris wheel in the sideways).


Personally, when Desmond returned to the limo after chatting up Penny, I was fully expecting that Eloise had replaced George with a goon to beat the crap out of him for ignoring her advice to stop looking....


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

Bananfish said:


> The cynical view is that he let her go because she still has a role to play in the plot. The non-cynical view is that Sayid's not an animal, and doesn't like killing women.
> 
> I think Desmond willingly went along with Sayid because Desmond knows (either from his two-timeline intuition or from talking with Widmore in a conversation we didn't see) that going with Sayid is part and parcel of the role he has to play in getting the timelines squared away.


:up::up::up:


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Bananfish said:


> The cynical view is that he let her go because she still has a role to play in the plot. The non-cynical view is that Sayid's not an animal, and doesn't like killing women.
> 
> I think Desmond willingly went along with Sayid because Desmond knows (either from his two-timeline intuition or from talking with Widmore in a conversation we didn't see) that going with Sayid is part and parcel of the role he has to play in getting the timelines squared away.


He clearly sent her to deliver the message to Widmore, that he now has Desmond.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Maybe someday Hurley will somehow talk to Walt and tell him the sad stories of everyone (that he either experienced himself or learned from talking to them when they're dead, so he could hear every backstory and detail), and Walt feels so sad that he imagines/creates this whole Happily Ever After universe where everything turns out great. But, people are figuring it out. Jack even said (paraphrasing) "wait, he was on the same plane as us, and he's *here?*).. Even Jack realizes that something is strange.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Interesting that in this universe Desmond ran into Penny running up and down the stairs, while in the original one he ran into Jack.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I get to hate Dominic Monaghan characters on two shows this week.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So Widmore didn't say he brought Desmond there because he thinks outside of time, but rather because he's the only person on the planet that he knows of to survive that much electromagnetic radiation (and then he tested him because he needed to make sure he could withstand it again).

So what's the plan? Maybe the electromagnetic radiation IS smokey, and IS the evil? Maybe he thinks Smokey will try something like digging into another pocket to release all of the energy, and he wants Desmond there when that happens so that there's still someone alive and smokey can't escape? Maybe storywise, releasing that energy mends the two universes?

Maybe the reason Desmond is uniquely able to survive that much electromagnetic radiation is because he's been taking that medicine in vials in the hatch? They built that hatch to contain the leakage of that radiation, so they must want the people in there to survive any ill effects of exposure to it..

(or maybe that's Desmond's "gift"? And I think Eloise's gift is knowledge of what the hell is going on..?)


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

The remark Eloise made to Desmond was interesting, along the lines of "What could you possibly want? You have my husband's approval, which is all you ever wanted." Is that what the sideways is about? Getting what you want, but still not being happy? Nadia is still alive, but Sayid's not happy. Desmond has Charles' approval, but is not fulfilled. Charlie hasn't found true love, and Jack has a son, but no purpose. (Not sure how Kate, Sun, and Jin fall into that theory, though.)


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Early in the ep when Desmond was driving Charlie, right before the accident, they panned from the car to a guy walking on the pier for a couple of seconds.
> 
> I think that guy was an easter egg, but I can't figure out who he is.


Yeah I noticed that...seemed out of place for sure but to quick to figure out who he was....hmmm.

*I thought it was amusing that Desmond meets Penny at what looks like the same stadium where he met Jack running in a few seasons back.*
*
EDIT...oops..missed Turtles post..*..


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

mmilton80 said:


> I was a bit floored when Desmond decided that going with Sayid seemed to be the thing to do (and he seemed nonplussed when Sayid killed a man right in front of him).
> 
> What is Desmond doing?


I don't think Desmond is doing anything. It seemed to me that the process of "testing" him, and going through that trauma made him very susceptible to suggestion, so he'd do anything that anyone told him.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

wprager said:


> Hopefully not a smeek, but I did not see mention of the word "cabin".
> 
> The experiment "room" looked a hell of a lot like the cabin where "some guy" we assumed was Jacob was sitting in a chair -- just like Desmond. When Hurley(?) saw that "crazy eye" it looked very much like the opening sequence of this episode, where we see Demond's right eye at the start.
> 
> I'm guessing that it wasn't Jacob, but Desmond in that cabin.


+like


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Got it.
> 
> In math, the imaginary number i represents the square root of -1. That's not a real number - it's imaginary - but by giving it a name we can use it in equations in a meaningful way, as long as we later cancel it out by multiplying by i again, leaving us with -1 and no more imaginary numbers.
> 
> The sideways timeline is like i. It's imaginary, and the only reason it's ok that it exists is because it will eventually cancel out and never have actually existed. Desmond will gather people (as Lantham tried to) and somehow make some useful change that affects the real timeline, ending this one and replacing it with the other. The two universes perpetually flip flop back and forth, causing each other.


Silly me. Back in college all I thought I was doing was solving electrical engineering equations but instead, I was manipulating universes!

Uh, oh. Wait! What about all the 'wrong answers' I got? I'm feeling really guilty about those inadvertant disasterous world ending consequences now.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> So Widmore didn't say he brought Desmond there because he thinks outside of time, but rather because he's the only person on the planet that he knows of to survive that much electromagnetic radiation (and then he tested him because he needed to make sure he could withstand it again)


No, he just needs to be able to withstand the electromagetic event in order to do whatever it is that he wants him to do. I'll bet the farm whatever that is involves his ability to "travel" through time and between worlds.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> I don't think Desmond is doing anything. It seemed to me that the process of "testing" him, and going through that trauma made him very susceptible to suggestion, so he'd do anything that anyone told him.


I think Desmond's experience has given him some wisdom and precogniscence (sp?) Somehow he knows that going with Sayid is what he should be doing.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> The remark Eloise made to Desmond was interesting, along the lines of "What could you possibly want? You have my husband's approval, which is all you ever wanted." Is that what the sideways is about? Getting what you want, but still not being happy? Nadia is still alive, but Sayid's not happy. Desmond has Charles' approval, but is not fulfilled. Charlie hasn't found true love, and Jack has a son, but no purpose. (Not sure how Kate, Sun, and Jin fall into that theory, though.)


I wonder if that will describe some of the fans of the show at the end.. "All you ever wanted were answers. Now you have them all.. ..and you're still not happy??


----------



## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> I get to hate Dominic Monaghan characters on two shows this week.


We were waiting for him to be walking around the stadium when Desmond got there.

OK- not really, but it would have been funny.


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

wprager said:


> Hopefully not a smeek, but I did not see mention of the word "cabin".
> 
> The experiment "room" looked a hell of a lot like the cabin where "some guy" we assumed was Jacob was sitting in a chair -- just like Desmond. When Hurley(?) saw that "crazy eye" it looked very much like the opening sequence of this episode, where we see Demond's right eye at the start.
> 
> I'm guessing that it wasn't Jacob, but Desmond in that cabin.


Yeah I can sort of see that being the case...that was my first thought when they opened the door and one of the first things you see in there is some old chair...which is odd because you'd think if you're going to force someone to go in there to be experimented on you'd have a big ol' chair bolted to the floor so you could strap the unwilling person down while the test is in place as opposed to some wimpy wooden chair you could pretty much bust apart or free yourself from easily like Desmond did.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

GDG76 said:


> To me, it seemed like Desmond was different when he woke up in the coil room. It seemed a lot like when Locke was "reborn" on the island as Smokey...


I thought it was more like after the hatch exploded and he could see the future.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

One thing quickly, despite my quick +like comment above, I actually had more to say but was in a rush.. I too thought of the cabin when I saw the inside.. (I also wondered if they were messing with us again by showing that the metaphoric "magic box" was instead literal - and that we were going to see it produce something out of thin air. 

I wrestled with the fact that we've seen (in Locke's dream) that Horace builds the cabin (otherwise I wouldn't have been surprised if this ended up bouncing around forever as the cabin). It looks pretty different though.

Still, the chair inside (especially when he didn't really even use it) screamed for recognition.. Very cabin like.

I actually like the Desmond-Jack running scene MORE now after seeing this version (which is far more significant IMHO). I now want to believe that when Desmond talked to Jack, he actually DID know more. Did they ever mention remembering each other FROM RUNNING? I know at the beginning of season 2 when Desmond saw Jack he said "you!!", but maybe he hadn't actually met Jack yet, and he was referring to another meeting that we haven't seen yet?

Nope, doesn't work, because we saw a later scene that added to the Jack-Desmond running scene where Desmond then meets up with Penny, which *was* in his memory/past.. I think.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

The hospital in the sideways is where most everyone seems to be coming together.

Jack
Charlie
Desmond
Kate
Claire


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hey..

Maybe the sideways universe is the result of a student driver...

At the end one of the candidates ends up replacing Jacob, and learns all about manipulating people to push them in directions, etc. That person (let's say Hurley instead of Jack, for the sake of my joke) gets a "test" universe to start with, and makes changes (Empire has Vader and Luke talking, etc). But Hurley's less subtle about the changes, and ends up having everyone go straight to the same hospital. He does so poorly that everyone figures it out, so he has to start over again. That universe goes away, and we get a third, which is.... (insert horrible other show finale here.. you know which one).


----------



## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

How about the painting in Widmore's office of the scales with the with and black rocks. Also, Eloise mentioned the rules. Is it possible that one of them is MIB or Jacob off of the island? Were either of them still on the island when the bomb went off? That would certainly change things.


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I get to hate Dominic Monaghan characters on two shows this week.


And I get to think Sonya Walger is hot in two shows this week!



BrandonRe said:


> We were waiting for him to be walking around the stadium when Desmond got there.
> 
> OK- not really, but it would have been funny.


That would have been cool!

Maybe what we think is the fake reality (where everyone is actually in LA), is really the real reality and all the island stuff is the fake reality. Since most people seem to be connected through the hospital, maybe they really are all there for group therapy or something and are experiencing some sort of mass hypnosis which makes them all think they are on an island together.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

I guess Penny was planning on blowing off the party to do some running? How did Daniel know she would be doing that? And why did it get so dark between the Desmond Daniel scene and the stadium scene?


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Bananfish said:


> My favorite piece of dialogue in this episode was Eloise saying to Desmond shortly after she allegedly met him for the first time:
> 
> "It's about time."
> 
> ...





mmilton80 said:


> I was a bit floored when Desmond decided that going with Sayid seemed to be the thing to do (and he seemed nonplussed when Sayid killed a man right in front of him).
> 
> What is Desmond doing?
> 
> ...





Philosofy said:


> The remark Eloise made to Desmond was interesting, along the lines of "What could you possibly want? You have my husband's approval, which is all you ever wanted." Is that what the sideways is about? Getting what you want, but still not being happy? Nadia is still alive, but Sayid's not happy. Desmond has Charles' approval, but is not fulfilled. Charlie hasn't found true love, and Jack has a son, but no purpose. (Not sure how Kate, Sun, and Jin fall into that theory, though.)


I think the Eloise scene is the most significant in the entire episode for figuring out what's going on. I've been saying for weeks that I thought the so called sideways world was actually the epilogue; essentially, the direct result of whatever plays out on the island for the remainder of the season. I based this on the fact that every character we had followed had arguably gotten in their new life what they most wanted from their old life. Up until the Eloise scene, the first part of this episode had me convinced that this theory was headed to the trash heap. The lines where she said that Desmond was breaking the rules and that he should stop asking questions because he's got everything he wants makes me think that the epilogue theory still has some life in it, but with a couple of revisions.

My take on Desmond telling Whidmore that he'd do whatever he needed to was that he _wanted_ to do whatever needed doing in order to create the sideways/epilogue world. I also think that he intends, within that world, to do whatever he can to make sure that everyone can live the lives where they got what they wanted while still remembering their previous incarnations. That's my revised theory, and I'm sticking to it - at least until next week.


----------



## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

DancnDude said:


> So Charlie almost dies in our sideways world and he sees Claire. Juliet dies on the island and she came back with info about the sideways world? How are these connected?


So near death in the "alternate world" brings about visions of the island. Juliet's near death response of "it worked" is because she saw visions of the "alternate world" while dying on the island? I like it.



GDG76 said:


> To me, it seemed like Desmond was different when he woke up in the coil room. It seemed a lot like when Locke was "reborn" on the island as Smokey...


Suggesting that Jacob was reborn in Desmond or something similar? Do we know if Desmond was ever a candidate?



Fool Me Twice said:


> Anyone else recognize Eloise's broach as being the same design as Juliet's "mark"?


I had completely forgot about Juliet's marking.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

My gosh, the writer's are copying Marvel's House of M. Desmond is Layla Miller. He even "knows stuff"!


----------



## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> Interesting that in this universe Desmond ran into Penny running up and down the stairs, while in the original one he ran into Jack.


Thinking back to that episode when Jack met Desmond at the stadium, Desmond asked Jack why he was running "like the devil was chasing him" or something to that effect. Makes a lot more sense now.

See you in another life, Brutha!


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

I was happy to see Daniel again-in this world, his mother never pressured him to follow science and therefore he was never consumed with the experiments which destroyed his mind. He was happy! Kind of-until he saw Charlotte.

I have to admit-I kind of have my whole head wrapped around the show until this episode. What is it about Eloise? How is she all-knowing? Remember when she appeared to Desmond the first time he flashed and she knew all the events that were going to happen-she knew when people were going to die, etc. How is she outside the rules of time and space? That does not make any sense at all to me...


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I don't think that Eloise is really "all knowing" but rather just such an arrogant b*tch in both worlds. Because WE know she knows a lot, doesn't mean she does. I mean, it seemed Widmore didn't really know. And if she did know then why wouldn't she have 'pushed' Daniel.

Or was Eloise's choice of rock stars, Charlie, and Desmond and Daniel and Penny, all being in the same place more than a coincidence??? I wonder who else we may see on the guest list - Lotto winner Hurley? Neurosurgeon Jack?

My head hurts.


----------



## wouldworker (Sep 7, 2004)

On the "Penny Milton" thing:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7795331&highlight=milton#post7795331



Originally Posted by Schmye Bubbula said:


> After all these years of watching, it only dawned on me after watching last year's season 5 finale that Lost is really Paradise Lost.
> 
> 
> > That thought had occurred to me, too, but there's nobody named "Milton" on Lost so there's no way that it's connected. The people who create Lost have many talents, but subtlety is not one of them.


I like that they simultaneously proved me to be both wrong and right.


----------



## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

wouldworker said:


> On the "Penny Milton" thing:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7795331&highlight=milton#post7795331
> 
> I like that they simultaneously proved me to be both wrong and right.


A few snippets on Paradise Lost from WP:

"The poem concerns the Christian story of the Fall of Man: the temptation of Adam and Eve by the fallen angel Satan and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Milton's purpose is to "justify the ways of God to men" and elucidate the conflict between God's eternal foresight and free will."

"The story of Satan follows the epic convention of large-scale warfare. It begins after Satan and the other rebel angels have been defeated and cast by God into Hell ...Satan employs his rhetorical skill to organize his followers ...At the end of the debate, Satan volunteers himself to poison the newly-created Earth."

"Satan is narcissistic, sad, and persuasive. Satan's persuasive powers are first evident when he makes arguments to his angel-followers as to why they should try to overthrow God ... Satan's persuasive powers are also evident during the scene in which he assumes the body of a snake in order..."

Sorry for all the cut and pastes, but there are certainly some ideas here that jive with MIB.


----------



## TiVoJedi (Mar 1, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Hey Desmond, when someone grabs the wheel you can step on the brakes if you like.


Was it a Toyota?


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

My question was why did he have a limo to drive him places and yet, he drove a car for that scene. What did I miss?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

stevieleej said:


> I was thinking that Dominic Monaghan has forgotten how to act like Charlie. He was acting more like his Flash Forward character.


I thought the same. I had a hard time separating the characters.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

hefe said:


> I thought the same. I had a hard time separating the characters.


I haven't seen FF, but thought he was acting very angry. Very dark. Would this be the Charlie if things hadn't gone the way they did? others in their flash sideways's were changed slightly in personalities and careers.....


----------



## sbelew (Mar 13, 2005)

When Charlie was describing the girl he fell in love with to Desmond, Didnt he say she was in handcuffs? But the description he gave was of Claire?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Just a couple of thoughts that don't really make a lot of sense. Up until the past couple of episodes, this season has been dealing with a lot of the mythological aspects of the island, or what might be considered the "faith-related" things with Jacob vs MiB. Now with Widmore back in the picture, he's bringing a lot more of the "science" of the island... talking about electromagnetism and such. I don't have first-hand knowledge cause I don't listen to the podcast, but I have heard that Darlton stated that the episode "Man of Science, Man of Faith" didn't refer to Jack vs Locke as most of us have always assumed, but that both sides of the title actually referred to Jack. Jack has always been a man of science, and now that he's finding his faith more, is it possible that he will be the one to finally be able to bridge these two aspects of the island together and perform the ultimate "fix" ... something he's always been obsessed with doing?


----------



## TheDewAddict (Aug 21, 2002)

sbelew said:


> When Charlie was describing the girl he fell in love with to Desmond, Didnt he say she was in handcuffs? But the description he gave was of Claire?


No, as part of his story of how he came to be in the bathroom with the heroin, he mentioned that in front of him was a girl in handcuffs sitting next to a policeman.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

sbelew said:


> When Charlie was describing the girl he fell in love with to Desmond, Didnt he say she was in handcuffs? But the description he gave was of Claire?


He said he saw a girl on the plane in handcuffs and that the officer that was with her "made" him, so he went into the bathroom to get rid of his stash. When he got choked on the stash is when he saw the vision of the blond woman... whom we assume was Claire.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

sbelew said:


> When Charlie was describing the girl he fell in love with to Desmond, Didnt he say she was in handcuffs? But the description he gave was of Claire?


No, he described the situation that there was a woman in handcuffs and he knew that there was a law enforcement officer there too, so I think that had something to do with him going to the bathroom to hide his stash, when he choked and then saw Claire.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

stevieleej said:


> I was thinking that Dominic Monaghan has forgotten how to act like Charlie. He was acting more like his Flash Forward character.





hefe said:


> I thought the same. I had a hard time separating the characters.


I was just telling someone this same thing earlier. As far as the drug addict Charlie, he wasn't this angry and dark when we saw him still being the drug addict in S1. The whole sequence when they were hiking to the tower, with Charlie trying to get everyone to remember "You All Everybody", he was the happy-go-lucky Charlie.



spikedavis said:


> I was happy to see Daniel again-in this world, his mother never pressured him to follow science and therefore he was never consumed with the experiments which destroyed his mind. He was happy! Kind of-until he saw Charlotte.


Something else others haven't really mentioned, but he only showed Desmond the one page he drew. That was a thick notebook, and he knew a lot more than he was letting on. How did he know to talk to Desmond specifically? Desmond was in the car, Daniel approached him and said, "We need to talk."

He has a lot more in that notebook, I'd venture to say he wrote the entire contents of the notebook, including one important entry: "If anything goes wrong, Desmond Hume will be my constant." I was expecting him in that conversation to turn the page and show it to Desmond.



> I have to admit-I kind of have my whole head wrapped around the show until this episode. What is it about Eloise? How is she all-knowing? Remember when she appeared to Desmond the first time he flashed and she knew all the events that were going to happen-she knew when people were going to die, etc. How is she outside the rules of time and space? That does not make any sense at all to me...


I've been thinking a lot about Eloise Hawking. Yes, she's a b***h in both realities, but in this one her responses to Desmond were the same in attitude as how she responded at the end of her meeting with him in Flashes Before Your Eyes.

I'm thinking that in the sideways reality she has a set of knowledge, and in our reality she has another set of knowledge. Together she has the whole thing, and somehow she's able to access both sets. Perhaps she shares Desmond's ability to be outside the rules.

The Eloise Hawking that met Desmond in the ring shop is the sideways Eloise.

Greg


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dtle said:


> Has it been established yet the length of time between when the Oceanic Six got on the plane till now?
> 
> Desmond had been drugged asleep for 3 days...if Widmore is able to find it that easy, why was so hard for the Eloise and Oceanic Six?


Because during that time between when Ajira 316 crashed and Widmore's sub arrived, Jack and crew had gone back in time and detonated the bomb.


Bananfish said:


> And she was attending the party "solo," so we know she's available! Go, Desmond, go!


Yet she was running stairs and meeting Desmond at a coffee shop rather than attending the party. 


aindik said:


> I guess Penny was planning on blowing off the party to do some running? How did Daniel know she would be doing that? And why did it get so dark between the Desmond Daniel scene and the stadium scene?


Because Daniel said, "I know exactly where she'll be and when she'll be there." Presumably, he knew she'd be running stairs that evening, but didn't know where she was in the meantime.


betts4 said:


> My question was why did he have a limo to drive him places and yet, he drove a car for that scene. What did I miss?


He was picked up from the airport by the limo, because he apparently didn't park his car at the airport. However, once he got back to the office, he then had his car and was able to drive to the police station to get Charlie. Then Charlie forced Desmond's car into the harbor, meaning Desmond then needed transportation again, so Widmore sent George to the rescue.


sbelew said:


> When Charlie was describing the girl he fell in love with to Desmond, Didnt he say she was in handcuffs? But the description he gave was of Claire?


He simply mentioned the girl in handcuffs (Kate) because he said that the cop sitting next to her "knew he was holding." Charlie was so paranoid about the heroin he was carrying that as soon as he saw an authority figure, he rushed to the bathroom to swallow the baggie. However, his description of the beautiful blonde he saw when he was nearly dead was of Claire, not of Kate. The mention of Kate was just to give us reference to the Marshall.

Edit: or what everyone else already said.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

gchance said:


> I've been thinking a lot about Eloise Hawking. Yes, she's a b***h in both realities, but in this one her responses to Desmond were the same in attitude as how she responded at the end of her meeting with him in Flashes Before Your Eyes.
> 
> I'm thinking that in the sideways reality she has a set of knowledge, and in our reality she has another set of knowledge. Together she has the whole thing, and somehow she's able to access both sets. Perhaps she shares Desmond's ability to be outside the rules.
> 
> ...


It certainly seems like Eloise is operating on a different plane from the other characters. She is neither candidate nor recruit, but neither is she a bit background character. The way she was acting in this episode it was as though she is one of the main "players" in the game, on the same level as Jacob or MIB. Thus her indignation over Desmond knowing about the existence of Penny, when she knew that sideways-Desmond should have had no knowledge or recollection of her. The fact that he even knew, she said, was a clear "violation." Her use of that word was striking and significant, I think. It sounded like she was objecting to one of the game's rules being broken. If the sideways universe is an alternate universe created by MIB, then its like Eloise was speaking as MIB would, complaining that one of the players in his sideways universe isn't operating by the right rules. Almost like a child complaining that the other player is cheating.

It occurred to me while watching this episode that there was quite a focus on the transcendent power of love. We had discussion of Charlie's insta-love for Claire when he saw her on 815. We had discussion of Daniel's insta-love for Charlotte when he saw her, and how that resulted in his notebook scribblings. We had the main plotline, which concerned Desmond and Penny. It's like the power that will join the two universes together is the power of love. Cue Huey Lewis. Or Captain & Tennille ("love will keep us together"), I suppose.  If it turns out that love is so important to resolving the disparate realities as one unified reality, I wonder if we'll wind up seeing that Rose and Bernard are somehow Adam and Eve, after all. They seem to be the "island standard" for pure love.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

danterner said:


> It occurred to me while watching this episode that there was quite a focus on the transcendent power of love. We had discussion of Charlie's insta-love for Claire when he saw her on 815. We had discussion of Daniel's insta-love for Charlotte when he saw her, and how that resulted in his notebook scribblings. We had the main plotline, which concerned Desmond and Penny. It's like the power that will join the two universes together is the power of love. Cue Huey Lewis. Or Captain & Tennille ("love will keep us together"), I suppose.  If it turns out that love is so important to resolving the disparate realities as one unified reality, I wonder if we'll wind up seeing that Rose and Bernard are somehow Adam and Eve, after all. They seem to be the "island standard" for pure love.


What Happened, Happened, and they lived Happily Ever After.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jking said:


> Just a couple of thoughts that don't really make a lot of sense. Up until the past couple of episodes, this season has been dealing with a lot of the mythological aspects of the island, or what might be considered the "faith-related" things with Jacob vs MiB. Now with Widmore back in the picture, he's bringing a lot more of the "science" of the island... talking about electromagnetism and such. I don't have first-hand knowledge cause I don't listen to the podcast, but I have heard that Darlton stated that the episode "Man of Science, Man of Faith" didn't refer to Jack vs Locke as most of us have always assumed, but that both sides of the title actually referred to Jack. Jack has always been a man of science, and now that he's finding his faith more, is it possible that he will be the one to finally be able to bridge these two aspects of the island together and perform the ultimate "fix" ... something he's always been obsessed with doing?


BTW, I couldn't help but notice that Sideways Jack didn't lift a finger to try and stop Charlie in the hospital.

No "Man of Action" this Jack.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

JYoung said:


> BTW, I couldn't help but notice that Sideways Jack didn't lift a finger to try and stop Charlie in the hospital.
> 
> No "Man of Action" this Jack.


Dude, he was on a break. No time. He had to go grab an Apollo candy bar before his next surgery.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Excellent episode. Focused on a great character, Desmond the 'constant' with brief appearances by sideways Faraday, Penny, & Eloise. I usually just like guy stuff but the many love stories in LOST seem very well done and emotionally charged. Kudos tothe writers and the actors involved.

Knew we'd see "Not Penny's Boat" once the car hit the water. Love the information bleeding between realities concept and where it seems headed with Desmond's emerging awareness of the phenomenon. LOST continues to surprise and in a positive manner. About the only thing they coulda done to take it to another level would have been a brief shot of Charlie's feet as he ran thru the hospital showing hairy Hobbit feet and toes.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

philw1776 said:


> Knew we'd see "Not Penny's Boat" once the car hit the water.


I'm usually on top of stuff like that, but I didn't see that coming.

Once they were in the water I thought it was just Charlie's fate to drown, no matter what timeline. The flash to the hand message caught me off guard.


----------



## anuyag (Apr 18, 2006)

I agree completely. He wasn't charlie at all but all his character in FF.



stevieleej said:


> I was thinking that Dominic Monaghan has forgotten how to act like Charlie. He was acting more like his Flash Forward character.
> 
> Although, he was portraying the sideways Charlie who is still a drug addict while the island Charlie had kicked the habit.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

anuyag said:


> I agree completely. He wasn't charlie at all but all his character in FF.


We're the ones who are cross contaminated. The sideways Charlie is the Charlie who was still together with the band and it was still popular. Arrogant, bigtime rock star, druggie twit. Not atypical for a TV character portrayal of same.

Island Charlie had split with the band and taken a blow to his self esteem and was taken down a couple notches. Were there no FF show currently on TV, we'd see the Charlie dopplegangers no more differently than the Jacks or the Sawyer boys.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

philw1776 said:


> We're the ones who are cross contaminated. The sideways Charlie is the Charlie who was still together with the band and it was still popular. Arrogant, bigtime rock star, druggie twit. Not atypical for a TV character portrayal of same.
> 
> Island Charlie had split with the band and taken a blow to his self esteem and was taken down a couple notches. Were there no FF show currently on TV, we'd see the Charlie dopplegangers no more differently than the Jacks or the Sawyer boys.


:up::up:


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

hefe said:


> I'm usually on top of stuff like that, but I didn't see that coming.
> 
> Once they were in the water I thought it was just Charlie's fate to drown, no matter what timeline. The flash to the hand message caught me off guard.


I'm not saying that actually SEEING the msg on Charlie's hand didn't really grab me, it did. Great job, writers.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

hefe said:


> I'm usually on top of stuff like that, but I didn't see that coming.
> 
> Once they were in the water I thought it was just Charlie's fate to drown, no matter what timeline. The flash to the hand message caught me off guard.


I thought that we were going to get some pseudo recognition of the event of Charlie's death from the prime reality. I thought that it would be a scene where Desmond would make a face, kind of like how several people have in this reality when looking in mirrors. Seeing the message on the hand was a pleasant shock.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Queue said:


> The hospital in the sideways is where most everyone seems to be coming together.
> 
> Jack
> Charlie
> ...


And Sayid -- he went there when his brother got beat up by Keemy.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> And Sayid -- he went there when his brother got beat up by Keemy.


And Sun and Jin will soon be stopping by.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Now I'm confused. How do Kate & Sawyer get to the hospital? (Yah, Kate was already there with Claire)


----------



## Jayjoans (Jan 23, 2003)

Scubee said:


> Sorry for all the cut and pastes, but there are certainly some ideas here that jive with MIB.


Unless those ideas were dancing with MIB, I think you meant to say they jibe.

Sorry, just a pet peeve I'm struggling with.


----------



## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

Jayjoans said:


> Unless those ideas were dancing with MIB, I think you meant to say they jibe.
> 
> Sorry, just a pet peeve I'm struggling with.


This is what happens though when my wife makes me watch Dancing before LOST ... that or the V and B are just too close together on the keyboard.


----------



## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

gchance said:


> ...I've been thinking a lot about Eloise Hawking. ...I'm thinking that in the sideways reality she has a set of knowledge, and in our reality she has another set of knowledge. Together she has the whole thing, and somehow she's able to access both sets. Perhaps she shares Desmond's ability to be outside the rules. ...The Eloise Hawking that met Desmond in the ring shop is the sideways Eloise.


Eloise does seem to be the one "mortal" (if she is in fact, mortal) character that seems to have some idea of "what is going on." It made some sense in the main reality since she grew up on the Island, and after shooting her own son, was told about the future and time-traveling, and had to guide Daniel to the Island to his death. But the last we saw of her in the main reality, she was telling Penny something to the effect of "for the first time in a long time, I don't know what's going to happen next."

In the flash-sideways, where the Island is seemingly underwater, we don't really know how she'd obtain any of that knowledge, or how she'd seem to know as much as she seems to.

One wonders if Eloise could be the "crazy mother" that MIB-Locke was talking about. Perhaps certain people like Eloise & Charles Widmore can "architect" a reality, and guide it to whatever outcomes they desire (where they are rich and famous, etc.) And in order to do this, they have to keep chance/free will/etc., at bay -- that would be MIB-Locke. So they can shape their reality however they want, as long as they can keep MIB-Locke out of the picture. If you were architecting a reality, it would make sense that you might consider anybody who wasn't on-board with your ideas of how a reality should go, "evil, darkness, or malevolence." Maybe the MIB will end up being the good guy(free will), and Jacob the "bad" guy (the guy tasked with keeping free will out of the equation).

It does seem we're headed in that type of direction where somebody is "designing" a reality that will cease to exist if MIB-Locke escapes the Island.



anuyag said:


> I agree completely. He wasn't charlie at all but all his character in FF.


+1.



philw1776 said:


> I'm not saying that actually SEEING the msg on Charlie's hand didn't really grab me, it did. Great job, writers.


But can you imagine newbies watching this show throwing up their hands and saying "What the heck does that mean? What boat?" This show really does reward loyal viewers. :up:


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

The island existed at sometime in the recent past because Ben's dad referred to the job on the island. I would bet that the official island sinking date was 1977, so that would put Eloise on the island for a good long time.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> The island existed at sometime in the recent past because Ben's dad referred to the job on the island. I would bet that the official island sinking date was 1977, so that would put Eloise on the island for a good long time.


Also because, when we saw it under the sea, it had Dharmaville on it.

From the Never Seen Lost guy's recap:


> Smurfette, Dez, and some nerds are walking through the woods. She wonders why he suddenly is so cooperative. Desmond says a lot can happen in 20 minutes. Unless it is an episode of Lost. In which case nothing happens in 20 minutes.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I don't think Charlie's personality changed at all. In the original timeline, he was a junkie who was hiding his addiction. Then he came clean of his own accord, and fought to stay clean. Now he's a junkie in the open, desperate for a fix, with no desire to quit. Two different people, IMO.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

mmilton80 said:


> As a lifelong Milton, I welcome Penny into the fold.


And since her character would be somehow related, that means HANDS OFF! 



Philosofy said:


> I think Desmond's experience has given him some wisdom and precogniscence (sp?) Somehow he knows that going with Sayid is what he should be doing.


I agree. He has some cosmic understanding of the way the universe is to unfold.



Scubee said:


> So near death in the "alternate world" brings about visions of the island. Juliet's near death response of "it worked" is because she saw visions of the "alternate world" while dying on the island? I like it.


I'd like to see an episode showing Juliet's experiences/flashes between the time of detonating the bomb and reappearing to die 30 years later. But I ain't holdin' my breath for it.



philw1776 said:


> Knew we'd see "Not Penny's Boat" once the car hit the water.


Ditto.



philw1776 said:


> About the only thing they coulda done to take it to another level would have been a brief shot of Charlie's feet as he ran thru the hospital showing hairy Hobbit feet and toes.


LOL!! :up:


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

This episode should have been called "The Constant, Part 2". Or maybe "The variable".


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I get to hate Dominic Monaghan characters on two shows this week.


Yeah, but that's canceled out by getting to see Sonya Walger on two shows this week too.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

jking said:


> I don't have first-hand knowledge cause I don't listen to the podcast, but I have heard that Darlton stated that the episode "Man of Science, Man of Faith" didn't refer to Jack vs Locke as most of us have always assumed, but that both sides of the title actually referred to Jack.


That was on the DVD commentary. It was a surprise to me when I listened to it only a year ago.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Other characters have noticed things not being quite right. Jack with his appendix. Maybe this other conscious needed to explain why Jack would have his scar since it's already occurred.

I think it's cool that Desmond's love for Penny is what let him see through the veil so to speak.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Do the characters in the sideways timeline have to be near death or at least faced with the possibility of death to "see" or "feel" that there's something missing/amiss in that timeline or to feel love?

Charlie only saw his love for Claire when he was near death from choking, Juliet apparently saw between two timelines when she was near death (and felt her love for Sawyer keenly at the time), and Desmond only glommed onto finding Penny when he nearly drowned. What really gets me is that Charlie said "I want to show you something" before yanking the car into the water, as if he knew he'd have to put Desmond near death to yank him out of his elan.

When Desmond answered George at the end of the episode as to why he wanted the plane's manifest, I think he used the same basic phrase as Charlie did - that he was going to "show them something." So will he now have to proceed by putting them all near death to knock them out of their zombie-like state?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> The remark Eloise made to Desmond was interesting, along the lines of "What could you possibly want? You have my husband's approval, which is all you ever wanted." Is that what the sideways is about? Getting what you want, but still not being happy? Nadia is still alive, but Sayid's not happy. Desmond has Charles' approval, but is not fulfilled. Charlie hasn't found true love, and Jack has a son, but no purpose. (Not sure how Kate, Sun, and Jin fall into that theory, though.)


Well, Sun and Jin are in love and in America but have to hide it, and are possibly in all sorts of trouble now.

Kate... we still don't know exactly what she's on the run for doing in this timeline.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

The MRI machine in the hospital subjected Desmond to a similar magnetic field that Widmore was subjecting Desmond to on the island. He certainly got a glimpse of the alternate timeline, from both perspectives.

I think all the pieces are now assembled and in play.

Ab Aeterno was more then 47 minutes long. This is very out of the ordinary for a Lost episode, almost all of which are between 42:30 and 43:30. All those who said it was extra long, but will probably be all commercials were incorrect. Perhapse as compensation, Happily Ever After was the shortest episode this season by my timing information (after the commercials are removed of course). According to my count, it came in at just over 41 minutes.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

3D said:


> I think the Eloise scene is the most significant in the entire episode for figuring out what's going on. I've been saying for weeks that I thought the so called sideways world was actually the epilogue; essentially, the direct result of whatever plays out on the island for the remainder of the season. I based this on the fact that *every character we had followed had arguably gotten in their new life what they most wanted from their old life.* Up until the Eloise scene, the first part of this episode had me convinced that this theory was headed to the trash heap. The lines where she said that Desmond was breaking the rules and that he should stop asking questions because he's got everything he wants makes me think that the epilogue theory still has some life in it, but with a couple of revisions.
> 
> My take on Desmond telling Whidmore that he'd do whatever he needed to was that he _wanted_ to do whatever needed doing in order to create the sideways/epilogue world. I also think that he intends, within that world, to do whatever he can to make sure that everyone can live the lives where they got what they wanted while still remembering their previous incarnations. That's my revised theory, and I'm sticking to it - at least until next week.


It's not bad as theories go, but why would Desmond want to create the sideways/epilogue world? One blissful feeling he got when meeting a girl, and making a coffee date with her? (For the record, I think it's possible the sideways world is the _prologue_ to the rest of the series rather the epilogue.)

I also am not convinced that your statement which I bolded above is true, considering that, for example, Kate's on the lam and Locke is still in a wheelchair. Why do you think it is? (Closely related are a few other posts referring to the sideways timeline as the "Happily Ever After" timeline - I realize that's the title of the episode, but it seems to me that the characters are *not* living happily ever after in the sideways timeline, other than perhaps Desmond, who seemed to be living a *false* dream of getting Widmore's approval that was perhaps somehow "installed" in him by Eloise and/or Widmore.)

One other thing as long as we're talking about Eloise's role: she said to Desmond "you're not ready yet," as if the plan was for him to come out of his stupor and know about Penny at some point, just not now. I wonder when she thought Desmond would have been ready and what she expected to occur then.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> Perhapse as compensation, Happily Ever After was the shortest episode this season by my timing information (after the commercials are removed of course). According to my count, it came in at just over 41 minutes.


Yet, the broadcast was 62 minutes. Yeah, I guess they were compensating.  Maybe also compensating for the V ratings.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

Bananfish said:


> I also am not convinced that your statement which I bolded above is true, considering that, for example, Kate's on the lam and Locke is still in a wheelchair. Why do you think it is? (Closely related are a few other posts referring to the sideways timeline as the "Happily Ever After" timeline - I realize that's the title of the episode, but it seems to me that the characters are *not* living happily ever after in the sideways timeline,


He didn't say "lived happily ever after". He said "had arguably gotten in their new life what they most wanted from their old life". Locke had the love of his life and Kate had a mother who covered for her.
Sort of a be careful what you wish for.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

MickeS said:


> This episode should have been called "The Constant, Part 2". Or maybe "The variable".


There actually WAS an episode called "The Variable," in Season 5. When Daniel returned to the island in '77 to tell the 815ers how to "fix" everything (by detonating the bomb).


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

"The Constantly Variable Package"

Greg


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> There actually WAS an episode called "The Variable," in Season 5. When Daniel returned to the island in '77 to tell the 815ers how to "fix" everything (by detonating the bomb).


In the back of my mind I was wondering if that wasn't the case when I was writing it. Thanks.


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## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

Queue said:


> Other characters have noticed things not being quite right. Jack with his appendix. Maybe this other conscious needed to explain why Jack would have his scar since it's already occurred.
> 
> I think it's cool that Desmond's love for Penny is what let him see through the veil so to speak.


Does that mean we finally got the meet the "Senior Partners?" Orlon window? (sp?) Lila yummm...


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Bananfish said:


> When Desmond answered George at the end of the episode as to why he wanted the plane's manifest, I think he used the same basic phrase as Charlie did - that he was going to "show them something." So will he now have to proceed by putting them all near death to knock them out of their zombie-like state?


Put them near death how, though? Maybe by getting them on a plane and causing it to crash? Onto a mysterious island? LOST.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Another thing that has been bugging me, especially of late. Maybe I'm overthinking this and confusing myself, but...

In the "alternate" (happily ever after/flash sideways?) reality, do the characters have any recollection of their past? If so, for how long, and what do they remember if they were only recently plopped down into this reality? As I recall, this season a few eps back, Jack asked his mother when he had his appendix out. But he couldn't seem to remember it. Does that mean that Jack (and the other Lostees) have no recollection of their childhoods?

It seems a popular theory that this flash sideways is a fake reality. If that is the case, I can't wrap my brain around how any of them can remember anything from their past, if the fake past didn't exist until they entered that fake reality.

I do believe (well, I was hoping) that the flash sideways reality will end up being the "actual" reality in the end, because it seems that, with light exception, most everyone is happier and they have all suffered much less. Plus, if the flash sideways reality holds true, that should mean that all those needless deaths didn't happen (Boone, Shannon, Ana Lucia, Eko, Libby, Charlie, Michael, Locke, etc.) I'll kinda be disappointed a little if there's not a happy ending, since these characters have really suffered.

And to whoever said that they are investing an awful lot of time on the flash sideways reality if they're just going to end up throwing it away, I agree. I still believe that in the end, we're going to end up realizing that we've been watching the conclusion of everyone's fate via the flash sideways since the beginning of the season...we just don't know it yet.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Some things I don't think we've discussed: 
1. Desmond knowing Claire will have a boy, before he was exposed to any electro magnetism.

2. Eloise seems to know something is up, but not Charles.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Until I am proven wrong by the show, I think Eloise 'knowing anything' is just a writer's ploy. Her lines were vague enough to make us think she did but maybe she really didn't and we are relying on old information that she did and an old view of her mysticalness. Why would she let Daniel be a musician if she knew what was to happen.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

betts4 said:


> Until I am proven wrong by the show, I think Eloise 'knowing anything' is just a writer's ploy. Her lines were vague enough to make us think she did but maybe she really didn't and we are relying on old information that she did and an old view of her mysticalness. Why would she let Daniel be a musician if she knew what was to happen.


Because SHE was getting what she wanted. If Daniel wasn't a physicist, he would never go back in time and get killed by her!


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

gchance said:


> Something else others haven't really mentioned, but he only showed Desmond the one page he drew. That was a thick notebook, and he knew a lot more than he was letting on. How did he know to talk to Desmond specifically? Desmond was in the car, Daniel approached him and said, "We need to talk."
> 
> He has a lot more in that notebook, I'd venture to say he wrote the entire contents of the notebook, including one important entry: "If anything goes wrong, Desmond Hume will be my constant." I was expecting him in that conversation to turn the page and show it to Desmond.


I think you answered your own question. First, Daniel saw Eloise pull Desmond aside. And we was close by. So, he knew something was up with Desmond.

Second, Daniel has that notebook. And, as you said, he may have written that important entry. So, having written that, and now hearing there's a Desmond Hume nearby...time to act.



philw1776 said:


> We're the ones who are cross contaminated. The sideways Charlie is the Charlie who was still together with the band and it was still popular. Arrogant, bigtime rock star, druggie twit. Not atypical for a TV character portrayal of same.


Charlie seemed consistent enough for me. For a druggie who has a band that's still successful, that is. I don't watch FF, so I can't compare (or be cross contaminated), but he worked fine for me.


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

I always have like the Desmond and Penny's boat episodes. Time lines will merge and the flash sideways people will be back at the island - well they already are, but the island stuff is now and the flash sideways are the past.

Great great show. I hope it is not too long before something like Lost comes around again.



TiVotion said:


> In the "alternate" (happily ever after/flash sideways?) reality, do the characters have any recollection of their past?


They are in the past so they are having recollections of the future. I hope this clears everything up


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

TiVotion said:


> Another thing that has been bugging me, especially of late. Maybe I'm overthinking this and confusing myself, but...
> 
> In the "alternate" (happily ever after/flash sideways?) reality, do the characters have any recollection of their past? If so, for how long, and what do they remember if they were only recently plopped down into this reality? As I recall, this season a few eps back, Jack asked his mother when he had his appendix out. But he couldn't seem to remember it. Does that mean that Jack (and the other Lostees) have no recollection of their childhoods?
> 
> ...


Charlie may have given you your answer - he said what happens "here" in the fake reality isn't important, the only thing that's important is that they feel it. I took from his statement that it wasn't just getting something you wanted in the FR, but that you understood the feeling. I had the impression Desmond was feelin' it when he came back to the island after the EM test. 

I was watching _Solaris_ over the weekend, and Jeremy Davies says something in that movie that works VERY well for me in this confusing Season 6. He says, "*I could tell you what's happening, but I don't know if it would really tell you what's happening.*" Of course, _Solaris_ is full of EM, alternate realities, and mysteries that takes place on an island ... I mean, a space station. Just saying.

Did anyone else catch that the museum was the site of the concert, where Red Head works, where Chang works? And that Faraday was watching Desmond the whole time during his back and forth with Eloise. (whoops, Alpinemaps beat me too it) And those bahstards, they gave Desmond the coffee line before Sawyer.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

wprager said:


> Hopefully not a smeek, but I did not see mention of the word "cabin".
> 
> The experiment "room" looked a hell of a lot like the cabin where "some guy" we assumed was Jacob was sitting in a chair -- just like Desmond. When Hurley(?) saw that "crazy eye" it looked very much like the opening sequence of this episode, where we see Demond's right eye at the start.
> 
> I'm guessing that it wasn't Jacob, but Desmond in that cabin.


Hmm, I never got any of that.


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## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

On another forum someone said that the lawyer who bailed Charlie out was Walt's mom. Can anyone confirm? If that's true, then that must mean that she didn't die in the alternate reality...maybe she stayed together with Michael to raise Walt? Would that somehow change Walt's meaning or value to the island?

I think I buy into the idea that Eloise is the "crazy mother"...we've gotten enough indication from the writers that she knows enough about what's going on to be considered one of the players rather than one of the pawns.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

smickola said:


> On another forum someone said that the lawyer who bailed Charlie out was Walt's mom. Can anyone confirm? If that's true, then that must mean that she didn't die in the alternate reality...maybe she stayed together with Michael to raise Walt? Would that somehow change Walt's meaning or value to the island?


Someone mentioned it but it was pretty quickly debunked.
Walt's mom was played by Tamara Taylor. Charlie's lawyer was played by Sundra Oakley.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smickola said:


> I think I buy into the idea that Eloise is the "crazy mother"...we've gotten enough indication from the writers that she knows enough about what's going on to be considered one of the players rather than one of the pawns.


The big problem with that theory is that Eloise isn't immortal...she was quite young in the 50s.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Eloise Hawking/Widmore seems to be a rule keeper for whatever game is being played.  I think that is how she is aware in this timeline (as well as in Desmond's earlier flashbacks). 

I just spoke with a colleague and his theory on getting the manifest was to find the "blonde woman" for Charlie (possibly to help him stay grounded in the "X" world).


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

brianp6621 said:


> Hmm, I never got any of that.


Well it's pretty obvious (now) that this is not Jacob:










It also doesn't look like Desmond. Then we see the eye close-up and this is the one that reminded me of the opening scene of this episode:










My mistake. When Hurley looks into the cabin there is still someone sitting in the chair, and it's pretty clear that the eye we see is that of "Patchy".


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Turtleboy said:


> Interesting that in this universe Desmond ran into Penny running up and down the stairs, while in the original one he ran into Jack.


I noticed so many parallels and now can't think of them all because my brain is still swimming. This was a main one though. I immediately was like hey, in the alt timeline it's Des running these steps!



cheesesteak said:


> I get to hate Dominic Monaghan characters on two shows this week.





hefe said:


> I'm usually on top of stuff like that, but I didn't see that coming. Once they were in the water I thought it was just Charlie's fate to drown, no matter what timeline. The flash to the hand message caught me off guard.


I watched this episode after the fact and I immediately texted a friend saying "Ugh, why do they keep making me look at the hobbit??" I was so hoping he drowned again in this one, I think I even did the evil laugh and rubbing of hands when the car hit the water. I was wrong but in my haste of wishing Charlie death again didn't even think about the hand thing. Totally threw me for a loop. Nicely done, LOST!



Bananfish said:


> Do the characters in the sideways timeline have to be near death or at least faced with the possibility of death to "see" or "feel" that there's something missing/amiss in that timeline or to feel love?


I think you just might be on to something here. But as someone else mentioned, does it go both ways? If so why is Juliett the first one to seemingly see the other timeline? There have been plenty of "near deaths" or deaths where the person was similar to Juliett, no?

I have to admit, I think somewhere my brain is starting to get this but the rest of me is still so utterly confused. I really can't see how they can answer even half of the questions that are still dangling in front of us week after week. What a ride to the end this is gonna be though!


----------



## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I have to admit, I think somewhere my brain is starting to get this but the rest of me is still so utterly confused.


That's a great way of putting it


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Philosofy said:


> Because SHE was getting what she wanted. If Daniel wasn't a physicist, he would never go back in time and get killed by her!


Maybe, but I am still feeling like (and I could be wrong, I have been before) that she doesn't know as much as we are all thinking she does. I am wondering if it is a bit of just really good writing to make us lean towards that aspect....or maybe they are really past the subtleness and are just laying it out. She did get Daniel, Desmond, Penny, almost Charlie and maybe by choice of where the party was held, that redhead. I wonder if Jin and Sun's visit could have included a trip to the museum in the itinerary.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

> Originally Posted by Bananfish
> Do the characters in the sideways timeline have to be near death or at least faced with the possibility of death to "see" or "feel" that there's something missing/amiss in that timeline or to feel love?


Who has been close to death and seen/felt it and who hasn't been, yet still did?

Remind me, what happened to Daniel to cause him to write in the notebook? Was seeing the appendicus scar that may have reminded him of almost dying from it when he was a kid, remind Jack of something? Or was it the gaze in the mirror.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Who has been close to death and seen/felt it and who hasn't been, yet still did?
> 
> Remind me, what happened to Daniel to cause him to write in the notebook? Was seeing the appendicus scar that may have reminded him of almost dying from it when he was a kid, remind Jack of something? Or was it the gaze in the mirror.


FWIW both Jack the dad and Sawyer the cop had interactions with mirrors


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> FWIW both Jack the dad and Sawyer the cop had interactions with mirrors


And Kate? do I remember something with Kate and a mirror?

I still can't get out of my head the scene of Charlie in the car, it filled with water, and him pressed up against the glass and then Desmond seeing the writing on Charlies hand. "not Pennys boat".

Perfect LOST moment!


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## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> FWIW both Jack the dad and Sawyer the cop had interactions with mirrors





betts4 said:


> And Kate? do I remember something with Kate and a mirror?


The mirror moment in this episode was Desmond looking at the arrivals board, when Hurley walks by and tells him which baggage carousel to go to.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

philw1776 said:


> We're the ones who are cross contaminated. The sideways Charlie is the Charlie who was still together with the band and it was still popular. Arrogant, bigtime rock star, druggie twit. Not atypical for a TV character portrayal of same.
> 
> Island Charlie had split with the band and taken a blow to his self esteem and was taken down a couple notches. Were there no FF show currently on TV, we'd see the Charlie dopplegangers no more differently than the Jacks or the Sawyer boys.


Yeah. I don't see druggie alternate Charlie (a.k.a, "Charlternate")

[Spoilers from FlashForward]


Spoiler



caring about his sister, his work, or helping/double-crossing the FBI.


Both had somewhat of an arrogant attitude, but to me they were different types of arrogance. One was the arrogance of intelligence; the other was the arrogance of apathy.



gchance said:


> Something else others haven't really mentioned, but he only showed Desmond the one page he drew. That was a thick notebook, and he knew a lot more than he was letting on. How did he know to talk to Desmond specifically? Desmond was in the car, Daniel approached him and said, "We need to talk."
> 
> He has a lot more in that notebook, I'd venture to say he wrote the entire contents of the notebook, including one important entry: "If anything goes wrong, Desmond Hume will be my constant." I was expecting him in that conversation to turn the page and show it to Desmond.


My view on this is that he used that notebook to write notes for his music, and just added a page or two of physics at the end. I think he talked to Desmond because he saw Desmond asking about Penny, and that reminded him of his own experience with Charlotte.

If he was trying to play some game with Desmond, I think he would have just told Desmond where Penny was instead of even explaining the little that he claimed to know.



jkeegan said:


> In math, the imaginary number i represents the square root of -1. That's not a real number - it's imaginary - but by giving it a name we can use it in equations in a meaningful way, as long as we later cancel it out by multiplying by i again, leaving us with -1 and no more imaginary numbers.


The interesting thing about i is that its additive inverse is also its multiplicative inverse. In other words, i * -i = 1.

Now, suppose you were an i, and you were stuck in some parentheses:

(i)

The rules are that i's can go into the parentheses, but cannot go out.

However, suppose you could find a way to split the world outside the parentheses into two parts:

(i) = (i) * 1 = (i) * -i * i

Now, your split is just temporary, and if that is all you do, it will collapse back into a stable state:

(i) * -i * i = (i) * 1 = (i)

But if you could somehow draw the -i into the parentheses, then it too would be stuck:

(i) * -i * i = (i * -i) * i

And when it collapses into its stable state, you would get:

(i * -i) * i = (1) * i = i

Freedom!


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Bananfish said:


> I also am not convinced that your statement which I bolded above is true, considering that, for example, Kate's on the lam and Locke is still in a wheelchair. Why do you think it is? (Closely related are a few other posts referring to the sideways timeline as the "Happily Ever After" timeline - I realize that's the title of the episode, but it seems to me that the characters are *not* living happily ever after in the sideways timeline, other than perhaps Desmond, who seemed to be living a *false* dream of getting Widmore's approval that was perhaps somehow "installed" in him by Eloise and/or Widmore.)





Cearbhaill said:


> He didn't say "lived happily ever after". He said "had arguably gotten in their new life what they most wanted from their old life". Locke had the love of his life and Kate had a mother who covered for her.
> Sort of a be careful what you wish for.


Cearbhaill beat me to the punch. To get more specific, here's what we've seen that fits in with arguably getting what they want (keeping in mind the whole be careful what you wish for theme):

Jack - has a son with whom his relationship is stronger than he had with his own father

Locke - Engaged to Helen and/or has a good relationship with his biological father

Claire - Not separated from Aaron

Sawyer - Not so consumed with revenge that he's all but thrown his life away

Sayid - Nadia is still alive and he's a part of her life

Hurley - Happy and lucky (and I have little doubt that when we see his sideways/epilogue in more detail, he will be married to Libby)

Sun/Jin - Together and, arguably, no longer under the clutches of Sun's father

Rose - Able to come to terms with the disease that will ultimately kill her

Kate - The fact that Kate is on the lam, I think, is actually part of what she wants. After all, running is "What Kate Does".

Just this morning, I got around to reading Jeff Jensen's, of EW, newest theory. I think the portion relating to Desmond is quite insightful, and quote the relevant part below:



> I think his job is to pull a John Locke/Jeremy Bentham and offer each castaway a chance to cross over into the Sideways world. I do think that's the direction of movement - Island to Sideways. I think Desmond's ''talent'' is to help each castaways open up a psychic channel for the crossing to occur. That means that Sideways Desmond has to work his people and Island Desmond has to work his people. And I think both iterations of the individual has to agree to create the channel. If Sideways Jack doesn't want to merge with Island Jack, is isn't going to happen.


With this in mind, I think the island characters whose sideways counterparts arguably don't get what they most want are the ones who don't go along with Desmond (or maybe these characters are the ones most likely to wind up in the careful what you wish for position). I also think that only two sideways characters will refuse to go along. One left behind islander will accept being stuck there while the other will not. These two characters will be the next iterations of Jacob and MIB.


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> The interesting thing about i is that its additive inverse is also its multiplicative inverse. In other words, i * -i = 1.
> 
> Now, suppose you were an i, and you were stuck in some parentheses:
> 
> ...


I am about to commit "nerder".


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Here's another way out theory. I think most of us think of the sideways reality as something not right. But what if its Jacob's loophole? MiB gets what he wants, gets off the Island, but everybody is gone to the sideways universe. MiB gets what he wants, destroys the world, but everyone escapes to the sideways universe. People like Widmore know that if MiB gets out, everyone dies, but he doesn't know about Jacob's sideways plan.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Bananfish said:


> One other thing as long as we're talking about Eloise's role: she said to Desmond "you're not ready yet," as if the plan was for him to come out of his stupor and know about Penny at some point, just not now. I wonder when she thought Desmond would have been ready and what she expected to occur then.


Adding to my last post, I think that Desmond is not supposed to do what he intends until the sideways world catches up from a date standpoint to when Desmond is doing the same type of work on the island. Otherwise, the connections cannot be established. By having physical contact with Penny, his constant, it prematurely set Desmond in motion to do something that violates the rules if done too soon.

eta: This might also explain why Eloise seems to know so much. Perhaps she has already been through this (maybe even more than once), so she potentially has multiple lifetimes worth of knowledge about the island.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm still sticking with my theory that the bomb broke the universe, and that the two worlds need to be re-merged in order to prevent even greater catastrophe.

I wonder if the re-merge procedure allows a loophole not only for Jacob, but for the Losties as well...that is, if in the restored universe, things can't be tweaked to everybody's benefit.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I think you just might be on to something here. But as someone else mentioned, does it go both ways? If so why is Juliett the first one to seemingly see the other timeline? There have been plenty of "near deaths" or deaths where the person was similar to Juliett, no?


But Juliett's death was the first *after* the bomb went off. Maybe that was the game changer?



betts4 said:


> And Kate? do I remember something with Kate and a mirror?


Kate had a mirror moment in the chop shop bathroom, as she was going through Claire's bag.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Here's something else I started to think about this morning:

Eloise was leader of the Others in the 70s. At some point later, she's gone, and Charles is the leader, but gets cast off the island by Ben.

Eloise and Charles seem to know a lot more about what's going on then Ben did. And Charles has been hellbent on getting back to the island and getting rid of Ben.

Could it be that Eloise and Charles were 'talking' to Jacob. We know Ben hasn't. So, does that mean that Eloise and Charles have 'insider' information from Jacob? Is that why Eloise knows so much?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think it's quite possible...probable, even...that Ben's status as "leader" was qualitatively different than other "leaders" in that he wasn't chosen for the role, but seized it. Therefore, it seems quite possible...probable, even...that he didn't have access to the full range of powers and knowledge that other leaders had.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Alpinemaps said:


> But Juliett's death was the first *after* the bomb went off. Maybe that was the game changer?


Ah yes, that would be correct. So maybe Sayid DID see the other timeline and realized that he was still without his love, even if she was alive there. Figured why not take Smokey up on his offer to give him what he wants since he sees no other way.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Alpinemaps said:


> But Juliett's death was the first *after* the bomb went off. Maybe that was the game changer?
> 
> Kate had a mirror moment in the chop shop bathroom, as she was going through Claire's bag.


I'm pretty sure Sun had a mirror moment too.


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

In regards to Juliett seeing the other timeline, I don't think it has anything to do with her being near death. She had just been exposed to a huge magnetic energy event, much like Desmond had been. In her case, it was because of the bomb. So, she "jumps" to the alternate reality and sees a whole bunch of stuff (that we didn't get to see like we did with Desmond) and then comes back all happy and tells Sawyer that it worked. She then dies on the island from her injuries.

Desmond asked how long he was out for and they said a few seconds, yet he experienced a much longer amount of time in the other universe. Then he comes back all happy, just like Juliett.

I think the EMI is required for people on the island to "travel" to the other reality. That's why they want Jin to find the pockets of energy so they can use those to get everyone else to see that reality.

As for the off island reality, not sure if near-death is required, or just coming in contact with someone who was important to you on the island to see that timeline. Or, maybe just re-creating an event from the island to give you deja-vu and figure it out.

Bryan


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Something I went to post yesterday but apparently my browser crashed or something because I don't think it made it through..

I wanted to say how much I liked the special effects they did in that test room with Desmond.. That looked excellent. I half expected his skin to rip off of his skeleton - it looked intense. Felt like the Quickening from the first Highlander movie. I later imagined a DVD outtake of the actors standing around, and Desmond's actor standing next to Richard's actor, and Desmond saying "I'm Desmond Hume, of the clan Hume, and (points at Richard) he cannot die."


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> I'm pretty sure Sun had a mirror moment too.


You are correct, she did. It was right before she answered the door of her hotel room to Keamey.

One other thing about the effects last night, and something that was a little different - when we switched to the Sideways world, we saw some 'flying' through the clouds before we 'landed' at Desmond. Clearly, we know it was Desmond jumping into the other reality, but I like how they made it different.

I wonder if we go back and watch the first time Desmond experienced and EM pulse (when he turned the key in the hatch), and ran into Eloise - did he jump to the sideways world? Or was that another 'sideways' reality?


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

3D said:


> [H]ere's what we've seen that fits in with arguably getting what they want (keeping in mind the whole be careful what you wish for theme):
> 
> Jack - has a son with whom his relationship is stronger than he had with his own father
> 
> ...


Thanks for compiling this - nice job. But I think it supports my skepticism of this theory.

It takes some tortured logic to come to the conclusion that all these characters "had arguably gotten in their new life what they most wanted from their old life." E.g., I don't think Rose most wanted to come to terms with her disease - I think she most wanted NOT to have the disease. Yes, Sun and Jin are not apart, but they're not married and her father just tried to assassinate him - that's not really what they most wanted. Sawyer .. well, Sawyer IS consumed with revenge - he went to Australia for a week chasing after the guy on a very thin basis, lying to his partner and risking his job. Most of the other details don't really strike me as what the characters "most wanted" either - isn't what Locke most wanted was not to be in a wheelchair, for instance?

It seems to me whatever differences are there for those characters are simply meant to drill home to us viewers that things ain't the same in the sideways timeline, in a very profound way.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok something is crystallizing in my mind..

(by the way, I enjoy throwing out random theories that come to mind, even if they're wildly contradictory of my main guesses as to what's actually going on.. so don't think I'm changing my mind every few seconds when this contradicts things I've said like my i theory - I'm just brainstorming)

My new guess is that the reason the writers dislike the term "alternate" reality is because there's only one.. Now yeah we've already been talking about there being only one (at a time), and one whole timeline being replaced with another.. But maybe that's not it.

Maybe "what happened happened" is absolutely totally 100% true, and nothing can change. Nothing.

..and Jacob (or smokey), for whatever reason, to trick people (or each other) into thinking that a change actually DID happen, instead just changed everything on earth (every atom) to be exactly what it had been at some prior point in time.. they rolled it back..

So we're going along in our traditional 815-crashes timeline, make it to some point (let's say late 2007 for the sake of this discussion), and then someone resets the entire planet/universe to look exactly like it did in, oh, 1950. It's actually the next second, so if someone was able to exist outside of those atoms changing they'd see that it's late 2007 + one more second, but now everything (including people's clocks, and the stars, and the location of the planet, etc) say it's 1950.. All the atoms are rearranged, so the atoms that made up people who died in 1951 are put back together and they're alive again, with the same neurons in their brain, same memories, etc.

Then this time around Jacob doesn't do the meddling that he did last time (for whatever reason - by choice, or because he can't because he's dead and not made up of atoms).

Yeah.. That's it. Smokey rolls everything back to 1950 (even though it's REALLY 2007+), but Jacob lived outside of the universe - he wasn't a meat puppet - and he's still dead. Life proceeds, people make choices based on the different circumstances since Jacob wasn't there to give a pen to James, etc.

The most compelling reason for me to want this? It simplifies Desmond's "jumping".. Before we saw that since Desmond was exposed to that type of radiation, something about being near the island (or strong electromagnetic radiation) causes him to become dislodged in time - he lives in the future and in the past. But NOW we're supposed to believe that he also can jump between different realities?

No.. I think what happened, happened.. everything up until 1970 is exactly as it was.. (and the flashes actually moved people around, they did time travel, etc). But after all of that was done, in 2007, smokey got out and changed the universe to look exactly like it did in 1950. 2008 looked like an alternate 1951, 2009 looked like an alternate 1952, etc. The lack of Jacob affected some things, and maybe smokey directly affected some others (to uphold his promises to some of the people that helped him get off of the island in the first place). Basically his promise to them was "I'm making now look exactly like 1950. In 20 years, you'll be born, it will seem exactly the same as it was, but I'll make sure that xyz doesn't get killed, etc."

But Desmond's flashes through time bring him into really2061, which looks exactly like 2004, except different. All he's doing is the same thing he did before - moving around in time - but he moved to a time when the universe looked different.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

I don't suppose anyone has the time or wherewithal to compile a list of the "mirror moments" and a brief synopsis about the circumstances of each, do they? There might be some insights there as far as what triggers mental wormholes between the two timelines, such as near-death experiences, love or otherwise.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Bananfish said:


> Thanks for compiling this - nice job. But I think it supports my skepticism of this theory.
> 
> It takes some tortured logic to come to the conclusion that all these characters "had arguably gotten in their new life what they most wanted from their old life." E.g., I don't think Rose most wanted to come to terms with her disease - I think she most wanted NOT to have the disease. Yes, Sun and Jin are not apart, but they're not married and her father just tried to assassinate him - that's not really what they most wanted. Sawyer .. well, Sawyer IS consumed with revenge - he went to Australia for a week chasing after the guy on a very thin basis, lying to his partner and risking his job. Most of the other details don't really strike me as what the characters "most wanted" either - isn't what Locke most wanted was not to be in a wheelchair, for instance?
> 
> It seems to me whatever differences are there for those characters are simply meant to drill home to us viewers that things ain't the same in the sideways timeline, in a very profound way.


But we are only in the middle of Sawyer and Kate's story. And everything looks like a failure in the middle.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

mmilton80 said:


> But we are only in the middle of Sawyer and Kate's story. And everything looks like a failure in the middle.


Hmmmm. So you're saying they all will have gotten what they most wanted in the sideways timeline by the time it finishes unfolding. I suppose that's plausible in theory (e.g., maybe Rose gets cured, Locke has surgery and can walk, sawyer catches up to Anthony whatever and reconciles the situation, Kate gets out of her trouble somehow, etc.), but frankly I'm not holding my breath.

(I could see that perhaps characters that have been promised something by Smokey/MiB will have gotten what they were promised, at least arguably, but I can't remember enough of what he's promised to commit to that.)


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Bananfish said:


> Thanks for compiling this - nice job. But I think it supports my skepticism of this theory.
> 
> It takes some tortured logic to come to the conclusion that all these characters "had arguably gotten in their new life what they most wanted from their old life." E.g., I don't think Rose most wanted to come to terms with her disease - I think she most wanted NOT to have the disease. Yes, Sun and Jin are not apart, but they're not married and her father just tried to assassinate him - that's not really what they most wanted. Sawyer .. well, Sawyer IS consumed with revenge - he went to Australia for a week chasing after the guy on a very thin basis, lying to his partner and risking his job. Most of the other details don't really strike me as what the characters "most wanted" either - isn't what Locke most wanted was not to be in a wheelchair, for instance?
> 
> It seems to me whatever differences are there for those characters are simply meant to drill home to us viewers that things ain't the same in the sideways timeline, in a very profound way.


Maybe the term "most wanted" is a poor choice, but I'll stand by the essence of the theory for the time being. Perhaps the choice one makes cannot be a physical one, but rather, has to do with emotional self-improvement. Thus, Locke can't wish away his physical problems and Rose can't wish away her cancer.

ETA: I'm not sure if Locke can even fairly be used as an example, as he was dead at the time that, under my theory, Desmond will be approaching the characters on the island to see if they want to make the connection with their sideways selves (same goes for Charlie). Thus, any changes to Charlie and Locke's lives could simply be the happenstance consequences of the changes made relative to everyone else.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Bananfish said:


> Hmmmm. So you're saying they all will have gotten what they most wanted in the sideways timeline by the time it finishes unfolding. I suppose that's plausible in theory (e.g., maybe Rose gets cured, Locke has surgery and can walk, sawyer catches up to Anthony whatever and reconciles the situation, Kate gets out of her trouble somehow, etc.), but frankly I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> (I could see that perhaps characters that have been promised something by Smokey/MiB will have gotten what they were promised, at least arguably, but I can't remember enough of what he's promised to commit to that.)


I don't think it is important for Rose to be cured or John to walk. Rose is fully at terms with her cancer (I hope Bernard is), John is at terms with his chair. I think we will see Sawyer and Kate resolve their individual issues.


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## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> Yeah. I don't see druggie alternate Charlie (a.k.a, "Charlternate")
> 
> [Spoilers from FlashForward]
> 
> ...


I thought I had too much time on my hands...


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

dagojr said:


> I thought i had too much time on my hands...


Wait, are you I, or i?


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## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

hefe said:


> Wait, are you I, or i?


Confused would be more accurate.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Of course, they gave us repeated hints about my whole i theory.

Most episodes in the first season started out, for each character, zooming in on their *eye*.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Of course, they gave us repeated hints about my whole i theory.
> 
> Most episodes in the first season started out, for each character, zooming in on their *eye*.


http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Eyes


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ya know, looking at Locke's eye here:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:1X04_LockeEye.jpg










..I can't help but be reminded of the appearance of the Lost DVD cases or some Lost poster.. But of course, looking through images in Google Image search now, I don't see any examples of what I was picturing.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> ..I can't help but be reminded of the appearance of the Lost DVD cases or some Lost poster.. But of course, looking through images in Google Image search now, I don't see any examples of what I was picturing.


You must be remembering something from your alternate reality... this is how it begins.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Ya know, looking at Locke's eye here:
> 
> http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:1X04_LockeEye.jpg
> 
> ...





Cearbhaill said:


> You must be remembering something from your alternate reality... this is how it begins.


Put a plastic bag over your head. You'll start to have trouble breathing, and get light headed, but don't fight it. You need to get right to the point of unconsciousness, and you will see it in a series of flashes.

Don't forget to remove the bag after you've seen it.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Will do.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> Hmmmm. So you're saying they all will have gotten what they most wanted in the sideways timeline by the time it finishes unfolding. ...
> (I could see that perhaps characters that have been promised something by Smokey/MiB will have gotten what they were promised, at least arguably, but I can't remember enough of what he's promised to commit to that.)


It ends thus....

MiB and Jacob Release 2.0 or so are talking. As viewers know, MiB has promised eveyone what they want. 
Jake 2.0 over background music then tells everyone, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime you just might find, you get what you need."
Cut to MiB. Cue new music 'Sympathy for the Devil'. 
Fade to black. Black. Black.
Roll credits.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

mmilton80 said:


> But we are only in the middle of Sawyer and Kate's story. And everything looks like a failure in the middle.


Especially for the woman who took a bullet in the abdomen, and for the boyfriend who shot her.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Have we talked about Widmore telling Des that if he can survive the electromagnotism, that he's going to have to make a sacrifice?

I took that as pointing to Des being the new Jacob.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The big problem with that theory is that Eloise isn't immortal...she was quite young in the 50s.


That may not be a problem.

Richard didn't start out immortal, but attained that status after receiving Jacob's gift.

MIB said "I used to be a man."

So it's possible that Eloise started out as a normal woman and at some point, in the last 15 years, gained immortality.

I don't think she is immortal, by the way, but I don't think the fact that she's aged disproves it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think it's quite possible...probable, even...that Ben's status as "leader" was qualitatively different than other "leaders" in that he wasn't chosen for the role, but seized it. Therefore, it seems quite possible...probable, even...that he didn't have access to the full range of powers and knowledge that other leaders had.


I'm fully on board with this...Ben screwed everything up by banishing the real leaders (but why didn't Jacob intervene?)...which is why Witmore and Elouise know a ton more about what is going on (and how to stop it)...

hey! my first post in a LOST thread


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I'm just kind of riding along right now in the hopes that it will one day make sense.


Totally this.

And I just have to say that Desmond and Penny just make me smile.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> That may not be a problem.
> 
> Richard didn't start out immortal, but attained that status after receiving Jacob's gift.
> 
> ...


But if she was a young-un in the 50s, that makes it pretty unlikely that she's the mother of somebody who's been around since at least the 1800s...


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But if she was a young-un in the 50s, that makes it pretty unlikely that she's the mother of somebody who's been around since at least the 1800s...


Oh, please, there's time-travel aplenty.

Non one mentioned the bunny yet.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

If Daniel's father's last name is Widmore, and his mother's last name is Hawking, why is his last name Farraday? If that's a tactic to keep his lineage secret, without ever having an explanation, it's kind of lame.

Does Daniel know his father is Widmore?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

aindik said:


> If Daniel's father's last name is Widmore, and his mother's last name is Hawking, why is his last name Farraday?


Do we know that Widmore's his father? Maybe he's just Widmore's stepson...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> Oh, please, there's time-travel aplenty.
> 
> Non one mentioned the bunny yet.


But the time traveling is done. It was limited to a very specific set of circumstances which has been resolved. I think it would be cheating to bring in more time traveling at this point.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> Do we know that Widmore's his father? Maybe he's just Widmore's stepson...


I thought we learned that in the episode where Daniel got shot.

Also, I don't think blood relations are different in the sideways (are they?), where Daniel describes Penny as his half sister, and we know Widmore is Penny's father.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Got it.
> 
> In math, the imaginary number i represents the square root of -1. That's not a real number - it's imaginary - but by giving it a name we can use it in equations in a meaningful way, as long as we later cancel it out by multiplying by i again, leaving us with -1 and no more imaginary numbers.
> 
> The sideways timeline is like i. It's imaginary, and the only reason it's ok that it exists is because it will eventually cancel out and never have actually existed. Desmond will gather people (as Lantham tried to) and somehow make some useful change that affects the real timeline, ending this one and replacing it with the other. The two universes perpetually flip flop back and forth, causing each other.


And now I see the real reason why people give up on this series...it's a giant MATH problem 

Seriously, watching the last few episodes, I can really feel for those people who don't watch this because it's too confusing or complicated to follow. I love the characters and I want to know how it all ends, but if I knew that the series was going to go this way, I might not have stuck with it. I still love it, but I really liked it better when it was at first a survival story and then a "war" between the survivors and the "others". When it started turning into so much confusion and too many outlandish stories, it started to "lose" me (Maybe LOST means the audience is LOST as much as the characters). Don't get me wrong, it's still a great thrill ride, but my head hurts after every episode trying to figure out what I just saw.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But the time traveling is done. It was limited to a very specific set of circumstances which has been resolved. I think it would be cheating to bring in more time traveling at this point.


I think you're heading for disappointment. I agree that we're not going to see any more time traveling by our castaways, but I'd give it at least a 50/50 chance that we might learn that other time traveling has taken place at some point with previous inhabitants of the island. Also, the shift in focus back to the magnetic properties of the island suggests that time travel has not completely been abandoned as tying into the overall story. Finally, so long as Desmond is given a prominent role, time travel cannot be completely discounted (at least in so far as the special way in which he travels, ala in the episode "The Constant").

Finally, although you're certainly entitled to your opinion that you wouldn't like it if they went the time traveling route, how exactly would it be cheating to bring back an aspect of the show that has already been presented in great detail?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> Finally, although you're certainly entitled to your opinion that you wouldn't like it if they went the time traveling route, how exactly would it be cheating to bring back an aspect of the show that has already been presented in great detail?


Because it was presented in great detail as being the result of very specific circumstances that don't exist any more.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Didn't Widmore have a bunny there in this episode and tell it something like "you're up next?" The only time I've seen a bunny in the series before was when Dharma was doing the time travel experiments and sending bunnies back in time. It seems to me that time travel is certainly in play as a possibility. (Not to mention that Daniel is scribbling equations in his notebook, and we all know what they were about last time we saw him doing that - time travel.)


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Steveknj said:


> my head hurts after every episode trying to figure out what I just saw.


Mine too!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

danterner said:


> It certainly seems like Eloise is operating on a different plane from the other characters. She is neither candidate nor recruit, but neither is she a bit background character. The way she was acting in this episode it was as though she is one of the main "players" in the game, on the same level as Jacob or MIB. Thus her indignation over Desmond knowing about the existence of Penny, when she knew that sideways-Desmond should have had no knowledge or recollection of her. The fact that he even knew, she said, was a clear "violation." Her use of that word was striking and significant, I think. It sounded like she was objecting to one of the game's rules being broken. If the sideways universe is an alternate universe created by MIB, then its like Eloise was speaking as MIB would, complaining that one of the players in his sideways universe isn't operating by the right rules. Almost like a child complaining that the other player is cheating.
> 
> It occurred to me while watching this episode that there was quite a focus on the transcendent power of love. We had discussion of Charlie's insta-love for Claire when he saw her on 815. We had discussion of Daniel's insta-love for Charlotte when he saw her, and how that resulted in his notebook scribblings. We had the main plotline, which concerned Desmond and Penny. It's like the power that will join the two universes together is the power of love. Cue Huey Lewis. Or Captain & Tennille ("love will keep us together"), I suppose.  If it turns out that love is so important to resolving the disparate realities as one unified reality, I wonder if we'll wind up seeing that Rose and Bernard are somehow Adam and Eve, after all. They seem to be the "island standard" for pure love.


Just throwing this out there....perhaps Eloise is MIB and Jacob's "mother" if they are indeed brothers. She set the rules.

OK....as I finally made it through the thread, I see others came up with this too. It seems to make a lot of sense considering FLocke's comment of a crazy mother.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But the time traveling is done. It was limited to a very specific set of circumstances which has been resolved. I think it would be cheating to bring in more time traveling at this point.


That's the beauty of time traveling. No matter when (or where?) it happened, Eloise could have ended up pregnant in the 1800s (or whichever century is needed). Could you imagine growing up in the 17th or whatever century, and your mother keeps talking about jeeps, computers, time travel -- then one day she just disappears. That could be interpreted as _crazy_ by her son.

And, no, I'm just _brainstorming_ and not formulating a new theory to replace any existing one(s).


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Because it was presented in great detail as being the result of very specific circumstances that don't exist any more.


Are you referring to the donkey wheel being somewhat thrown off its axis by Ben? If so, how are we to know that this has never happened before and could never happen again? Christian (who was presumably Smokey), told Locke that the time traveling was caused by the dislodged donkey wheel. If he was telling the truth, it likely happened before in order for him to know as much. Plus, I don't think we can necessarily accept it as the truth, based on the fact that this had been corrected by the time Jack and the gang made their way back, but some of them were still sent back in time for reasons that were never given.

Also, who's to say that this is the only way time travel can occur on the island? What about the bunny experiment? I do not think that, based on what we've already seen on Lost, the use of time travel, in and of itself, will constitute a cheat by the writers. I will whole heartedly agree, however, that the idea of time travel is vulnerable to be used in ways that could be considered cheating. But that depends on how its used rather than on whether its used.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> Just throwing this out there....perhaps Eloise is MIB and Jacob's "mother" if they are indeed brothers. She set the rules.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


>


Best LOST comment in a long time!

I am curious, though, to an earlier poster's query about where the Faraday surname comes from for Daniel.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

tewcewl said:


> I am curious, though, to an earlier poster's query about where the Faraday surname comes from for Daniel.


Eloise's maiden name?
She was never married to Widmore in the original timeline, right?
It's conceivable that Hawking is a married name she took on well after he was born.
Or something like that.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I have been thinking about the time travel aspect of this show and I have a question. There are at least three distinct instances of time traveling. There has been only one clear explanation for the time travel, so what caused the others?

We were told explicitly that the donkey wheel sent the person who turned it, and some additional people, but not everyone on the island, time traveling. It was the donkey wheel effect that killed Charlott. (Side note, at least during one stop, the statue was intact, so our travellers spent a short time on the island prior to Richard's arrival.) The temporal displacement part is explained by the wheel, but not the arbitrary nature of who was transported.

The other two instances are 1) when (again arbitrarily) some Ajira passengers were teleported to the past, off the plane, before it landed. And 2) when Juliette set off the bomb. Maybe we are to believe, though we were never told, that the bomb could have the ability to send some of the people in the vacinity through time. That still leaves the passengers on the plane "incident." Are there multiple mechanisms causing time travel, or is there only one? If there is only one, how does it fit into all of the instances of time travel that we have been shown?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

TiVotion said:


> I guess I'm still not grasping how Widmore, with his magnetic contraption whooze-it, ties into the more seemingly mythological story of Jacob and MIB (who it would seem might be brothers).


Men of science--men of faith

Has there been something specific said that makes you think they are brothers? Or is that just a guess? Several people have said it like they had a clear reason. (which I probably missed) 

Other seasons my friend at work and I spent hours discussing each ep of Lost. This year, not so much. It's still awesome, but somehow I just can't disect it like I used to. Guess I'm lost myself.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> Didn't Widmore have a bunny there in this episode and tell it something like "you're up next?"


No, that was Widmore's lackey who said that. The same guy who had his neck snapped by Sayid.



Church AV Guy said:


> I have been thinking about the time travel aspect of this show and I have a question. There are at least three distinct instances of time traveling. There has been only one clear explanation for the time travel, so what caused the others?
> 
> We were told explicitly that the donkey wheel sent the person who turned it, and some additional people, but not everyone on the island, time traveling. It was the donkey wheel effect that killed Charlott. (Side note, at least during one stop, the statue was intact, so our travellers spent a short time on the island prior to Richard's arrival.) The temporal displacement part is explained by the wheel, but not the arbitrary nature of who was transported.
> 
> The other two instances are 1) when (again arbitrarily) some Ajira passengers were teleported to the past, off the plane, before it landed. And 2) when Juliette set off the bomb. Maybe we are to believe, though we were never told, that the bomb could have the ability to send some of the people in the vacinity through time. That still leaves the passengers on the plane "incident." Are there multiple mechanisms causing time travel, or is there only one? If there is only one, how does it fit into all of the instances of time travel that we have been shown?


There was also the experimental aspects of time travel which the Dharma Initiative was working on:

- Locke was watching a Dharma film reel showing Dr. Candle panicking when the numbered bunny showed up on a shelf while he was holding the same bunny in his arms. Ben destroyed the time transporter pod a few moments later.

- Another instance was with Faraday as a physics major (prof?) at the University when Desmond visited him and watched an experiment where a mouse traveled through time and learned the route through a maze before he had been trained to do so.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

getreal said:


> - Locke was watching a Dharma film reel showing Dr. Candle panicking when the numbered bunny showed up on a shelf while he was holding the same bunny in his arms. Ben destroyed the time transporter pod a few moments later.


Nope.

You're remembering the Comicon video that came out between S3 & S4.

Greg


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

gchance said:


> Nope.
> 
> You're remembering the Comicon video that came out between S3 & S4.
> 
> Greg


I'm confused. Your first link is from the show, but you're saying it's not?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> Didn't Widmore have a bunny there in this episode and tell it something like "you're up next?" The only time I've seen a bunny in the series before was when Dharma was doing the time travel experiments and sending bunnies back in time. It seems to me that time travel is certainly in play as a possibility. (Not to mention that Daniel is scribbling equations in his notebook, and we all know what they were about last time we saw him doing that - time travel.)


No, I think the bunny=time travel is a red herring in this episode. Remember, Ben had some bunnies at the compound on Hydra Island. He used one to pull the con on Sawyer, with the heart monitoring device. It's probably all they had available to test in the chamber - no one wanted to push a polar bear in there!


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But if she was a young-un in the 50s, that makes it pretty unlikely that she's the mother of somebody who's been around since at least the 1800s...


Agreed. I was only disputing the "she can't be immortal" implication.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Alpinemaps said:


> I'm confused. Your first link is from the show, but you're saying it's not?


The first link is from the show, but it doesn't show Dr. Candle freaking out because of duplicate bunnies. The second clip does, but it wasn't in the show. Getreal was saying it was in the show, but I was showing him that it wasn't.

Greg


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Fool Me Twice said:


> .......
> If the sideways world is manufactured, that would explain why everyone is bunched up in LA.
> ........


What if the "sideways" world is the "normal" one and the fake reality is the Island?



wprager said:


> Hopefully not a smeek, but I did not see mention of the word "cabin".
> 
> The experiment "room" looked a hell of a lot like the cabin where "some guy" we assumed was Jacob was sitting in a chair -- just like Desmond. When Hurley(?) saw that "crazy eye" it looked very much like the opening sequence of this episode, where we see Demond's right eye at the start.
> 
> I'm guessing that it wasn't Jacob, but Desmond in that cabin.


That's what I thought.

Just watched this for the first time tonight. Awesome. Have to watch again tomorrow......


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Cearbhaill said:


> Eloise's maiden name?
> She was never married to Widmore in the original timeline, right?
> It's conceivable that Hawking is a married name she took on well after he was born.
> Or something like that.


Or the opposite could be true. Eloise's maiden name could have been Hawking, and she was married to a Faraday while raising Daniel. Then, something happened between her and her husband when Daniel was older, and she changed her name back to Hawking.

But Daniel, who grew up as a Faraday, and perhaps did not feel the same way about his father as his mother did, decided to keep his last name the same. If he had already published papers by then, that would be another reason to keep his name the same.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Rewatching the episode, I learned something important. I don't want to live in the alternate reality - apparently ELO doesn't exist. Daniel has come up with a concert idea combining classical and rock together. And DriveShaft is the fusion between them! Forget it then brotha, sounds like ELO and even the Moody Blues don't exist there. Take me back to the island! 

On a more serious point, to jlb's question about the sideways being the real "normal" world ... Charlie shot that down. He twice tells Desmond that what is happening there isn't real. The first time is almost subtle, but the second time is not: "This doesn't matter. None of this matters. All that matters is that we felt it."


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

I think Eloise is a bigger player in the whole LOST story than we've seen so far.
Even Widmore admitted that she could destroy him.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Does anyone have a screencap of Desmond on the plane in the premiere and Desmond in the airport in this episode? Someone elsewhere said that he was wearing different clothes, or was shaved differently.

It might just be a continuity error, if it's even true.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I found it. It looks like it is the same clothes. If the hair is different, it's just a continuity error.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

gchance said:


> The first link is from the show, but it doesn't show Dr. Candle freaking out because of duplicate bunnies. The second clip does, but it wasn't in the show. Getreal was saying it was in the show, but I was showing him that it wasn't.


Ah, got it. I thought you were saying that the clip didn't appear in the show, or that the time traveling bunnies didn't happen in the show. Never mind, you cleared that up for me.



Turtleboy said:


> Does anyone have a screencap of Desmond on the plane in the premiere and Desmond in the airport in this episode? Someone elsewhere said that he was wearing different clothes, or was shaved differently.
> 
> It might just be a continuity error, if it's even true.


One question I heard on the Jay and Jack podcast - is Desmond wearing a wedding ring in the premiere? They were saying he was, but I don't remember.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

One interesting tidbit Jorge Garcia mentioned on the Geronimo Jack's Beard podcast was that the electromagnetic coil cabin where the one lackey got fried and Des survived, had to have been constructed with no metal nails. But then he wondered about the pants Des was wearing -- wouldn't there have been a metallic zipper? Oops!


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Alpinemaps said:


> One question I heard on the Jay and Jack podcast - is Desmond wearing a wedding ring in the premiere? They were saying he was, but I don't remember.


He was, people were making a big deal out of it. He was wearing a wedding ring, but Sun & Jin weren't. People were speculating that Sun & Jin weren't married, and others ridiculed them for it. Ha-ha, whoops. 

Greg


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Giant pictures.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Giant pictures.


I'm in another forum run by forumotion.net. There is an admin setting on the max width/height for pictures before they get automatically resized. If the picture is resized there are buttons added to enlarge or view full size.

Surely there is a similar setting here. Who's got admin access?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, one of my prime uses of adblocking is to block oversize images that $^@&#37; up the formatting of the forum. It would be nice if that weren't necessary...


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

getreal said:


> One interesting tidbit Jorge Garcia mentioned on the Geronimo Jack's Beard podcast was that the electromagnetic coil cabin where the one lackey got fried and Des survived, had to have been constructed with no metal nails. But then he wondered about the pants Des was wearing -- wouldn't there have been a metallic zipper? Oops!


I thought Widmore's response was more interesting about Desmond possibly wearing metal - he roared, "Of course he isn't!" Why the heck was he so sure? (Maybe Des is wearing Levi 501s, with uh plastic buttons.)


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

There are a couple of great Twilight Zone episodes that I'm reminded of while watching Lost of late. I apologize if someone has mentioned them already. One was about a man who was caught in a storm and came across something like a monastery where the devil was held prisoner by the monks. The devil convinced him the monks were mad and he let the devil out. Later he took the responsibility of holding the devil prisoner after he was recaptured. Like someone said earlier I think Widmore's comment means Desmond will have to make the sacrifice and take over for Jacob.

The second was a store owner who came across a lamp or something that produced something akin to a genie that gave him three wishes. The genie, or maybe it was the devil, gave him the wishes exactly as he asked but giving him the bare minimum or giving him the most unpleasant results as he could while still holding to the wording of the wish. I think the MiB will do something like this or perhaps has done so in the flash sideways. Sayid wished Nadia was alive, Sawyer just wants off the Island, Claire wants Aaron back(although I don't think she's a candidate), Jin wants to be with Sun and vis-versa. he hasn't made offers to Jack or Hurley yet. Maybe some of them will get their wish, but it won't be exactly as they pictured it.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

DavidJL said:


> There are a couple of great Twilight Zone episodes that I'm reminded of while watching Lost of late. I apologize if someone has mentioned them already. One was about a man who was caught in a storm and came across something like a monastery where the devil was held prisoner by the monks. The devil convinced him the monks were mad and he let the devil out. Later he took the responsibility of holding the devil prisoner after he was recaptured. Like someone said earlier I think Widmore's comment means Desmond will have to make the sacrifice and take over for Jacob.
> 
> The second was a store owner who came across a lamp or something that produced something akin to a genie that gave him three wishes. The genie, or maybe it was the devil, gave him the wishes exactly as he asked but giving him the bare minimum or giving him the most unpleasant results as he could while still holding to the wording of the wish. I think the MiB will do something like this or perhaps has done so in the flash sideways. Sayid wished Nadia was alive, Sawyer just wants off the Island, Claire wants Aaron back(although I don't think she's a candidate), Jin wants to be with Sun and vis-versa. he hasn't made offers to Jack or Hurley yet. Maybe some of them will get their wish, but it won't be exactly as they pictured it.


The first one is called "The Howling Man" and though I've read someone elsewhere mention it in comparison to LOST, I don't remember anyone mentioning it here. It's a good one. Anyone can watch it here: http://www.imdb.com/video/cbs/vi826671129/

The second one is called "The Man in the Bottle" and it's a good example of a certain type of story, maybe the most famous of which is "The Monkey's Paw", a short story by W.W. Jacobs. We had to read it in grade school, and it's the story that I always think of when MIB makes a promise.

The whole story: http://www.americanliterature.com/Jacobs/SS/TheMonkeysPaw.html


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> I thought Widmore's response was more interesting about Desmond possibly wearing metal - he roared, "Of course he isn't!" Why the heck was he so sure? (Maybe Des is wearing Levi 501s, with uh plastic buttons.)


Because he had Desmond on the sub for a while, and I'm sure at some point they scanned him for metal, and removed anything they found. I don't think Widmore said, "Of course he isn't!" in the sense that there was no way Desmond would ever have any metal on him, but rather in the "Of course we already checked for that!" sense.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Has there been something specific said that makes you think they are brothers? Or is that just a guess? Several people have said it like they had a clear reason. (which I probably missed)


It probably started when MiB first appeared and many made the connection with the story of Jacob and Esau. While that may or may not still be the case, the brother connection still lingers in a lot of the LOST theories out there.


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

Cearbhaill said:


> Eloise's maiden name?
> She was never married to Widmore in the original timeline, right?
> It's conceivable that Hawking is a married name she took on well after he was born.
> Or something like that.


I'm not confused about this at all (maybe I've gone crazy?) . In the Island timeline, Eloise and Charles are married and both of their last names are Widmore as is the last name of their son, Daniel. Penny, on the other hand seems to have a different last name (probably from her mother). In the sideways timeline, Eloise and Charles are not married. Eloise's last name is Hawking (perhaps a maiden name) and Daniel's last name is Farraday (perhaps from another man Eloise was married to).


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Just re-watched this episode. Really moving and interesting. The richness of the interwoven universes was well done. LOST at its best. Less than 24 to another episode.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> I'm not confused about this at all (maybe I've gone crazy?) . In the Island timeline, Eloise and Charles are married and both of their last names are Widmore as is the last name of their son, Daniel. Penny, on the other hand seems to have a different last name (probably from her mother). In the sideways timeline, Eloise and Charles are not married. Eloise's last name is Hawking (perhaps a maiden name) and Daniel's last name is Farraday (perhaps from another man Eloise was married to).


Except in the "island timeline" Daniel's last name is Faraday and Penny's is Widmore. Daniel's name has never been Widmore. Penny's has been Widmore as long as we've seen her until this episode and the sideways flash.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jking said:


> It probably started when MiB first appeared and many made the connection with the story of Jacob and Esau. While that may or may not still be the case, the brother connection still lingers in a lot of the LOST theories out there.


Actually, in my case it went quite a different route. I had suggested that MIB and Jacob are father and son (not necessarily in that order) because of all the daddy issues in Lost. Later, however, I changed my mind after recalling the episode where fLocke sees the blond-haired boy with blood on his hands in the jungle. For some reason -- cannot explain, just a feeling -- it really felt to me that this scene prmoted the idea of the two being siblings.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, one of my prime uses of adblocking is to block oversize images that $^@% up the formatting of the forum. It would be nice if that weren't necessary...


You can do that with AdBlock?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BrandonRe said:


> Except in the "island timeline" Daniel's last name is Faraday and Penny's is Widmore. Daniel's name has never been Widmore. Penny's has been Widmore as long as we've seen her until this episode and the sideways flash.


Why is that confusing? In the original timeline, Widmore married Penny's mother and Faraday was a bastard. In the sideways timeline, it's the other way around.


wprager said:


> You can do that with AdBlock?


Yep. You can block indivdual images, or images from a specific server (I have the main Lost fansites blocked, because so many people use huge images from them to illustrate points, cough cough).

That's the main use of it for me...it's not so bad here, but I go to forums where people have monumentally annoying (big, animated, etc.) .sigs/avatars. Adblock makes those forums readable for me.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I don't think that the flashsideways is a "simulation" or a fake life. When Daniel explained my theory to Desmond, I said to my wife, "I wonder how everyone on the forum is going to conclude that that's not what's happening _this time_..." I guess this "in the matrix" idea is it. But I don't buy it. There were two big clues in this episode to refute it: Daniel telegraphing basically my theory, and how Desmond's consciousness jumping worked. (Eloise's mysterious dialogue seems to fit too, but it also could be taken the other way as well, so I'm not counting it.)

However, I'm starting to think an alternative to my original theory is the (ahem) mirror image: maybe the flashsideways is the current storyline, and the thing we've been calling the current storyline is actually the flashforward. The bomb _did_ do what it was supposed to do, and at some point, all the people in their alternative lives will undo its effects. Same idea, just reversed. In some ways this variant is more compelling than the original, particularly in the sequencing of how we saw it back in the season opener.

That Desmond's consciousness was able to be jumped between these "two timelines" seems like proof to me that they are different points along one timeline, further corroborating my theory even more than Daniel telegraphing it does. It just doesn't make clear which one comes first.

My wife and I thought that the MRI machine was going to be what jerked Desmond's consciousness back to the island -- as it would have been the same kind of thing as what sent it to the flashsideways -- but it didn't go that way. Interesting.

Amazing that they were able to get appearances by not one but two actors who have big roles on other shows, in the same episode. The scheduling must have been challenging. (Though it could have been worse. Neither of them appeared in the island scenes so they could have had their scenes done in California; and they didn't appear together.)



Bananfish said:


> "Whatever happened, happened."


I had to pause to explain the significance of this to my wife (ditto for the scotch), but I think she said "what" not "whatever".



wprager said:


> Non one mentioned the bunny yet.


Angstrom! Did he have a number on his back?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> However, I'm starting to think an alternative to my original theory is the (ahem) mirror image: maybe the flashsideways is the current storyline, and the thing we've been calling the current storyline is actually the flashforward. The bomb _did_ do what it was supposed to do, and at some point, all the people in their alternative lives will undo its effects.


So basically, you're saying that the bomb broke the universe; now they have to fix it.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yep. You can block indivdual images, or images from a specific server (I have the main Lost fansites blocked, because so many people use huge images from them to illustrate points, cough cough).
> 
> That's the main use of it for me...it's not so bad here, but I go to forums where people have monumentally annoying (big, animated, etc.) .sigs/avatars. Adblock makes those forums readable for me.


Oh, I thought you could set it up to block images based on size. Back to admin: can someone with admin access check if there is a setting to automatically resize large images?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So basically, you're saying that the bomb broke the universe; now they have to fix it.


What if the bomb actually fixed the universe. And now they've got to figure out how to break it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> What if the bomb actually fixed the universe. And now they've got to figure out how to break it.


I'm sticking with "broke it." What happened, happened, but after the bomb went off, what happened DIDN'T happen. The universe is broken. Now it needs to be repaired/reconciled.

What will be interesting is to see if in the repair process, there isn't some wiggle room for changes to be made. I suspect that might be what Jacob has been up to all along...creating the circumstances under which a better universe can be built.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> The first one is called "The Howling Man" and though I've read someone elsewhere mention it in comparison to LOST, I don't remember anyone mentioning it here. It's a good one. _*Anyone**_ can watch it here: http://www.imdb.com/video/cbs/vi826671129/


* Only "anyone" within the U.S. -- Canadians (and any other computer not located within the States) are blocked from viewing the clips. Oh sure, we can see the website and the ads play for every computer visiting the site, but the actual specific content we are interested in is blocked.  :down::down:


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm sticking with "broke it." What happened, happened, but after the bomb went off, what happened DIDN'T happen. The universe is broken. Now it needs to be repaired/reconciled.
> 
> What will be interesting is to see if in the repair process, there isn't some wiggle room for changes to be made. I suspect that might be what Jacob has been up to all along...creating the circumstances under which a better universe can be built.


I'm not sure I'm following the theories you and Hunter are talking about exactly - I think they're similar to what has been discussed before, with the concept of "repairing" the universe being injected because of Daniel's discussion with Desmond in this episode.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what we're talking about for the overall master timeline under these theories:

Theory 1 (Hunter's prime theory): (a) Seasons 1-5 of Lost occurred first(including time travel), culminating in the bomb being exploded, which in turn caused (b) the current island timeline, which will be followed by (c) the current sideways timeline. Presumably, we'll learn (and probably see) something happen at the culmination of the current island timeline to "repair" the damage caused by the bomb and cause the current sideways timeline to happen.

Theory 2: (alternative): (a) The current sideways timeline happened first, followed by (b) Seasons 1-5 of Lost (including time travel), culminating in the bomb being exploded, which in turn caused (c) the current island timeline. Presumably we'll learn (and probably see) the events that caused seasons 1-5 to follow the current sideways timeline, and something important (and hopefully entertaining) will happen at the end of the current island timeline.

Do I have those theories right?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

wprager said:


> What if the bomb actually fixed the universe. And now they've got to figure out how to break it.


I'm going with "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> Theory 2: (alternative): (a) The current sideways timeline happened first, followed by (b) Seasons 1-5 of Lost (including time travel), culminating in the bomb being exploded, which in turn caused (c) the current island timeline.
> 
> Do I have those theories right?


Not for me. I'm saying Seasons 1-5 culminated in the bomb, which caused the sideways timeline (in which stuff we know happened didn't happen, thus the universe is broken). To me, the relationship of the current island timeline to all this is not entirely clear. Hunter suggests that the current island timeline is what happens after the universe is fixed. That may well be the case, but I suspect the truth might be more complicated than that.

And I've been talking about fixing the universe being the endgame of the show since the middle of last season.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why is that confusing? In the original timeline, Widmore married Penny's mother and Faraday was a bastard. In the sideways timeline, it's the other way around.


I don't think it is confusing. I was responding to the other post which was incorrect.


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

One thing I noticed last week was that it seemed people in the flashsideways that seemed to have "figured it out" had died in our regular timeline. I know Eloise is not dead, but I think she's an outlier in that she's significant in some way we dont' know...

Daniel
Charlie
The limo driver

All of them are dead and they seemed to have figured out something wasn't right...


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not for me. I'm saying Seasons 1-5 culminated in the bomb, which caused the sideways timeline (in which stuff we know happened didn't happen, thus the universe is broken). To me, the relationship of the current island timeline to all this is not entirely clear. Hunter suggests that the current island timeline is what happens after the universe is fixed. That may well be the case, but I suspect the truth might be more complicated than that.


I'm going to use a term that perhaps I just invented, but probably not: "eventline". It's distinguished from a "timeline" in that if you go back and relive a time period, those events that occur the second time you experience that time period appear *afterward* on an eventline. (Of course, that only makes sense if you can determine which of your experiences of that time period happened "first", but I'm going to assume you can in the Lost universe.)

I believe these are the eventlines for Hunter's theories:

Original: (a) Seasons 1-5 (including time travel), (b) Boom!, (c) current island timeline, (d) characters undo effects of bomb, (e) sideways timeline.

Extra Crispy: (a) Seasons 1-5 (including time travel), (b) Boom!, (c) sideways timeline, (d) characters undo effects of bomb, (e) current island timeline.

Here's the eventline for my own twisted theory:

Mashed Potatoes: (a) Sideways timeline, (b) knocked back in time somehow, (c) Seasons 1-5 (including time travel), (d) Boom!, (e) current island timeline.

Hopefully this is helpful for anyone who is trying to follow the theories, but is well, ahem, lost.

Looking forward to tonight's episode!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

4 hours left!


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

MasterCephus said:


> One thing I noticed last week was that it seemed people in the flashsideways that seemed to have "figured it out" had died in our regular timeline. I know Eloise is not dead, but I think she's an outlier in that she's significant in some way we dont' know...
> 
> Daniel
> Charlie
> ...


Does that mean at some point we'll see Nikki and Paulo in the flashsideways looking smug in their superior knowledge? (Plenty of other "knowledgeable" candidates too ... Ana Lucia, Eko, Boone, etc.)


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

Bananfish said:


> Does that mean at some point we'll see Nikki and Paulo in the flashsideways looking smug in their superior knowledge? (Plenty of other "knowledgeable" candidates too ... Ana Lucia, Eko, Boone, etc.)


Not sure, but it could be...maybe they realize something is off because their "other" isn't there, thus they are off...

Shooting in the dark of course, but something I thought of...


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not for me. I'm saying Seasons 1-5 culminated in the bomb, which caused the sideways timeline (in which stuff we know happened didn't happen, thus the universe is broken). To me, *the relationship of the current island timeline to all this is not entirely clear*. Hunter suggests that the current island timeline is what happens after the universe is fixed. That may well be the case, but I suspect the truth might be more complicated than that.
> 
> And I've been talking about fixing the universe being the endgame of the show since the middle of last season.


This!


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So basically, you're saying that the bomb broke the universe; now they have to fix it.


No.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> I believe these are the eventlines for Hunter's theories:
> 
> Original: (a) Seasons 1-5 (including time travel), (b) Boom!, (c) current island timeline, (d) characters undo effects of bomb, (e) sideways timeline.
> 
> Extra Crispy: (a) Seasons 1-5 (including time travel), (b) Boom!, (c) sideways timeline, (d) characters undo effects of bomb, (e) current island timeline.


Pretty much. Except in the original theory, they don't _undo_ the effects of the bomb; the bomb didn't work, and they eventually do something else that finally does what the bomb was meant to do. In the extra crispy eventline, they undo the bomb.

The key point here is that the two separate "stories" we're seeing now are not parallel, not alternatives, not simultaneous, not influencing one another, etc.: they are sequential, so one of them is a flashback in the telling of the other. They don't represent a "split" and they aren't going to "merge"; one of them will turn out to be a consequence of the other. Nor do they represent a really different storytelling technique; just a new way of using a technique they've been using since the very beginning.

It's quite possible that the events in one of them that cause the other one will involve the "universe course-corrects" feature we've known since Desmond's attempts to save Charlie back in season 3, and it's pretty plain it'll involve Daniel's theories. But the only sense in which "the universe is broken" is true is the sense in which it's tautologically true (if there's more story left to be told, there must be something left to resolve; ergo, if the show hasn't ended yet, the universe must be "broken" given what was established years ago about its course-correction), which tells us nothing about what's actually going on, or what the two "timelines" represent.

Of course, I've been wrong before. And I'm already saying I think I was wrong about one point of my theory as I posited it after the season opener, the order of the two eventlines. But the sequentiality seems _more_ likely every week to me, not less, while the "they're in the Matrix" or "these are parallel worlds interacting" ideas seem less likely, so I'm standing by the sequentiality theory. If I'm wrong... I'll have had fun on the way!


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