# Cablevision (Altice) and Cable Cards



## tomdom25 (Aug 15, 2009)

I've been having lots of trouble with cable cards recently. I had to go through quite a few Altice techs to get my 2 Tivo's to work with them (went through 4 cards before a knowledgeable tech got them to work). I also have a Hauppauge digital tuner on my pc (win7) that's been working fine for years. Now all of a sudden the cable card in this tuner (replaced 3 times) isn't working.
But all these problems I'm stating are just about the cable cards and Tivo.
I've been told by multiple techs that Altice is eliminating the cards soon. The "tech" I just spoke with this morning (who couldn't "bind" the card) told me that Tivo will have to come up with something so that they will not need any cable cards.
Funny, the quick search I did on the net says they can't do this.
So, my questions to anyone with better knowledge than I:
Is this going to happen?
Is it against current FCC requirements?
If it is so and legal, what will Tivo do?


----------



## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Asked and answered already. When they say that the cards will be eliminated "soon", they are correct depending on how you define "soon". New technology coming in the future is not required to use cablecard, so it won't. As long as they are using the current technology, they WILL provide cards, regardless of what they say to discourage you.

As for what TiVo will do when that new technology comes...we'll find out in a few years.


----------



## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

The cablecard people at Cox agree this is a service that will not be around in the future but they also say they will support it for at least "a few more years". I hope to use Tivo boxes (whatever form they may take) for as long as TV plays a big role in my life! I am not ashamed to admit it. Big screen, big sound, lots of quality programming. Of course I am single with no kids; makes it easy to stare at a screen all day


----------



## razor237 (Feb 1, 2002)

I too had some issues with optimum , i had to replace a TiVo and needed to have the card from the old box bound the the new box. The first reps you get usually Are not the best trained with the cable cards and binding them so i start off by asking for there Tier 2 that deals with cable cards and what not, usually once i get there its quick and easy. Well not this time, took two calls , two days apart to get the card bound correctly and over 2 hrs on the call. I was talking to the tech on the second call and he was telling me that they have changed all there software to new systems for the new Altice one or what ever its called and that the new software just doesn't work well for anything but the new stuff. he also said that they made it very difficult for anything cable card related. so maybe they are trying to make if so difficult to bind cable cards that people will decide to just get there stuff or the bugs haven't been worked out of the new systems yet who knows .... I don't see them able to do away with the cable cards as soon as they would like at least i hope


----------



## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

I had the same issue. Have a Roamio, and got a new bolt. Moved the card over and called to have it transferred/bound/etc.. The rep tried a few times and it wasn't working then she got a message that I had to replace the card.

Next day I go at lunch.. get new card in their Fairlawn office. Ok called that night.. was transferred 3 times to wrong departments and put on hold during it so that was 30 minutes gone. Then got a guy who kept trying to bind it but nothing was happening on my end. He was going to escalate and had me on hold when I got disconnected (I think my phone's fault) and I had an apt to get to so I figure i'd call back in the morning. Called back they couldn't bind it still so I thought maybe I have a bad card. The girl said I could exchange it and she would also escalate to "remedy" or something like that. 

I went at lunch again and got a new card at the Oakland office. They gave a small paper with it with instructions. So I tried again after work and this time the girl got it working within like 15 mins. Probably 2.5-3 hrs on the phone between all the calls.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Here's some info I dug up and posted on another thread here a couple months ago:

Altice USA (the company that owns Optimum) is in the process of changing their physical wireline network from hybrid fiber/coaxial cable (i.e. the typical kind of network used by cable companies like Comcast, Charter, Cox, etc.) to a potentially faster all-fiber network. They began that work last summer and it is supposed to be done nationwide within five years.

What is unknown is whether they will keep their TV service using the existing kind of technology that cable companies have always used (a transmission type called QAM) or if they will switch it over to a more modern internet-based type of transmission (IPTV). Once their network in an area is fully fiber-to-the-home, they *could* decide to switch from QAM to IPTV. IF they do that, CableCARD-based devices such as TiVo would no longer work with Optimum TV service. Meanwhile, Optimum is rolling out their own new combo TV/modem/wifi router box called "Altice One" which supports IPTV functionality with cloud DVR, streaming apps, and 4K on-demand video.


----------



## razor237 (Feb 1, 2002)

That will suck when/if that happens


----------



## lisabranam (Apr 5, 2018)

I keep on hearing that the new technology that would be available sometime in the future does not require cable cards. I also keep on hearing the word soon. Can you please tell me what do you mean by the word soon?


----------



## razor237 (Feb 1, 2002)

lisabranam said:


> I keep on hearing that the new technology that would be available sometime in the future does not require cable cards. I also keep on hearing the word soon. Can you please tell me what do you mean by the word soon?


Soon is used very loosely i think ... it could be 6 months to a year or it could be years .... i don't think there is or could be a specific time line since there are so many network backbone & system upgrades that need to be finished before they start to change over to the new systems and this will vary from area to area. There are a lot of unknowns as well, no one knows for sure if they will stop supporting cable cards right away they might not be allowed to abandon them that easy.

I'm not too worried yet just not sure i will be getting the next gen TiVo until things are a bit more clearer on whats going on. Maybe the next TiVos will have some type of dual CC / IPTV support so it wont matter what optimum does  i can dream lol


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Nobody knows what "soon" means in this case. It likely means at least 5 years. To totally eliminate QAM requires replacing all existing set top boxes, save the couple of new IPTV capable systems (Altice One, Comcast Xfinity X1). This is not only expensive, it takes quite some time. Until you hear of an active program to proactively exchange STBs, elimination of QAM is still at least a couple of years away.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Diana Collins said:


> Nobody knows what "soon" means in this case. It likely means at least 5 years. To totally eliminate QAM requires replacing all existing set top boxes, save the couple of new IPTV capable systems (Altice One, Comcast Xfinity X1). This is not only expensive, it takes quite some time. Until you hear of an active program to proactively exchange STBs, elimination of QAM is still at least a couple of years away.


I think it's trickier to estimate how soon it may be in the case of Altice/Optimum, although, yes, there would have to be a big STB swap-out program in a given area before it could be switched over from QAM to IPTV and that kind of thing takes some time. So if/when you hear that's happening in your area, that's the alarm signal that your TiVo's days are numbered there. To switch to IPTV, Altice would need all customers to be using their Altice One box (or perhaps some less expensive IPTV-capable STB for customers on cheap low-end TV packages). I haven't seen any figures about what percentage of their TV customer base are already using the Altice One box yet but I imagine it's still quite low since it was only introduced last summer or fall.

That said, I tend to think that Altice will focus on a few areas at a time to switch over their network from HFC to FTTH -- starting, IIRC, with former CableVision areas. Now, there's no reason why they couldn't continue after the switch-over to use QAM TV over FTTH, as FiOS does. But if they plan to make a switch from QAM to IPTV, they may also make that switch one area at a time, as each area switches from HFC (with DOCSIS modems) to FTTH (with ONTs and new gateways). If they're going to have to switch out customers' internet equipment, they may decide to switch out their TV STB at the same time. (And I assume that, should a scenario come to pass, Altice will roll out a new cheaper version of the One box sans built-in DOCSIS 3.0 modem.)

The story with Comcast is a little different. They have no plans to switch from HFC to FTTH. But they have slowly been building the pieces for years to give themselves the option to partially or completely switch over from QAM to IPTV. They already have their entire live linear channel line-up deployed over IPTV (via their mobile Stream app) and now also offer a standalone IPTV service with Xfinity Instant TV (accessed on TVs, for now, only via Roku). Their cloud DVR feature, accessed through X1, the mobile Stream app, and Xfinity Instant TV, is IPTV-based.

The thing holding Comcast back from the ability to completely switch over from QAM to IPTV (if they wish to do so) is all those TV customers who still use old QAM-only STBs. But that portion of their user base has been shrinking. At the end of last June, Comcast reported that 55% of their TV subs were using X1 (which is IPTV-capable). They projected that figure to rise to the low 60s by year-end. Let's say they added 6 pp and hit 61% by the end of '17 and about the same amount in the first half of this year. That would put 2/3 of their TV subs on X1 by the middle of this year.

Meanwhile, Comcast is working to get the low end of their TV subscriber base -- those folks who won't sign up for a more expensive package with an X1 box -- on their Instant TV IPTV service. Up until recently, when Comcast would advertise promo deals for cheap internet + TV packages (e.g. $29.99 for 25 Mbps + local channels + one premium channel), that would come with a QAM-only STB. But now they're pushing those sign-ups toward internet + Xfinity Instant TV (which also includes HD service and cloud DVR for no extra cost), with the customer providing their own Roku or other viewing devices. That said, they're also still offering low-end TV packages with those janky old QAM-only STBs. We'll know Comcast is really gearing up for a near-term full IPTV switch-over when they completely stop offering those STBs and also tell customers currently using them that they have a certain amount of time to switch them out.

I think it would make sense for Comcast to strike a deal with Roku to mass produce for them a cheap white-label streaming stick, like Roku did for Sky with the NOW TV Smart Stick. The stick would auto-launch inside of the Xfinity Stream app for viewing Xfinity Instant TV and come with the same handful of non-Comcast apps that also run on the X1: Netflix, YouTube, Pandora, etc. It wouldn't have access to the Roku app store; Comcast would be in charge of pushing out apps and auto-updating them. Give it a custom remote control with channel up/down buttons and TV power and volume buttons. Comcast could give non-X1, non-Instant TV subs a six-month window to swap out their current hardware for a free Xfinity Smart Stick (or use their own Roku instead). That would get Comcast to the end-point where I believe they're headed: a two-tier TV system with X1 at the top (comprising the bulk of their customers) and Xfinity Instant TV underneath for everyone else.


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

That stat to watch is not how many are using the new tech, but rather how many "old tech" boxes are still in use. Just because a user has an X1 box, doesn't mean they don't still have legacy boxes on other TVs (unless Comcast requires converting the whole house).


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Diana Collins said:


> That stat to watch is not how many are using the new tech, but rather how many "old tech" boxes are still in use. Just because a user has an X1 box, doesn't mean they don't still have legacy boxes on other TVs (unless Comcast requires converting the whole house).


True, although X1 customers can extend service to secondary TVs via the same Xfinity Stream app for Roku that is used on all TVs for Xfinity Instant TV customers. So in those households that have X1 on one TV but do not wish to pay a bit more for small X1 extender boxes on other TVs, they could either use a Roku or be given a cheap device from Comcast that does the same thing (i.e. the "Xfinity Smart Stick" I envisioned above).

Another point to keep in mind is that the software stack in Comcast's own internet gateways include the ability to convert multicast video streams into unicast video streams. So if Comcast dropped QAM and put their linear channels on multicast IPTV, any device on the home network with the Xfinity Stream app -- Roku, iPhone, etc. -- could fetch live TV via unicast streams from the gateway. (Almost no retail streaming devices are multicast-compatible.) Placing the most popular channels on multicast would greatly reduce network traffic over putting all viewing sessions on unicast.

It's feasible that 75% of Comcast customers will be on X1 or Xfinity Instant TV by the end of this year. I'll still be a little surprised if, as I've said before, we don't see Comcast drop QAM for IPTV by the end of 2020.


----------



## razor237 (Feb 1, 2002)

I just hope nothing happens too soon, i would hate to not have my TiVo


----------



## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

In my area, I think it took Cox at least 4-5 years from the announcement of turning off analog to when it actually turned off. It also took at least 3 years from the announcement of requiring digital tuning adapters to when DTAs were actually needed.

Like someone else said, once they start sending out letters notifying that all QAM tuning devices are being made obsolete, I'll start looking for another solution. But I'll give myself a three year time line.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

powrcow said:


> In my area, I think it took Cox at least 4-5 years from the announcement of turning off analog to when it actually turned off. It also took at least 3 years from the announcement of requiring digital tuning adapters to when DTAs were actually needed.
> 
> Like someone else said, once they start sending out letters notifying that all QAM tuning devices are being made obsolete, I'll start looking for another solution. But I'll give myself a three year time line.


Yeah, you'll surely be notified that the change is coming well in advance. I don't doubt what you said about Cox taking three years to implement those previous changes, although I can't imagine why any cable company would do that (unless they were putting off implantation for reasons that had nothing to do with providing extra time to customers). I'd tell customers they have 6 months, then at the end of that, extend it 3 more months, then extend for a final 3 months after that, so that the transition is done in a year. If you give customers a really long time frame to swap out equipment, there's no sense of urgency and people will just forget about it.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Hmm, it looks like when Altice/Optimum switches homes over from cable to fiber (which they've begun the work for in the NY/NJ/CT area), they may well be dropping QAM TV in favor of IPTV, which would mean that TiVos and other CableCARD devices would cease to work for those customers once their home is connected to fiber.

The reason I say this is because of the new Fiber Gateway router that Altice has filed with the FCC for use by their upcoming fiber customers. (See here for all related docs files with the FCC.) The operational description file for the gateway clearly says that it "supports triple-play services - high speed internet (HSI), voice (VoIP), video (IPTV) and Wi-Fi (Dual Band)". And you can tell from the photos that it doesn't have a coaxial output. I'm guessing that Altice will require TV customers to use either their existing Altice One box or a new version (without the expense of a built-in DOCSIS modem) as their TV STB, connected to the fiber gateway via ethernet or wifi.


----------

