# Who are TiVo's 5 primary competitors?



## du1024 (Mar 27, 2007)

Obviously the cable affiliates.

Who else?

Thanks a lot!


----------



## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

Current Competitors:
Moxi
Scientific Atlanta (owned by Cisco Systems)
Motorola

Sort-of Competitors:
Apple (AppleTV)
LG (DVR built into TV)
Every computer computer company that builds a Media Center PC

Future competitors:
Panasonic


----------



## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

one more Current Competitors -- NDS (builds the DVR's for DirecTV and is currently owned by the same company that owns DirecTV)


----------



## supasta (May 6, 2006)

MythTV and others like it.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Competitors? Where we're going, we don't need... <looks at depressing financial statements> competitors.


----------



## Elistan (Jan 11, 2003)

Another competitor - Microsoft.
They make the software used on the Motorola DVR supplied with AT&T's U-Verse service.
http://www.microsoft.com/tv/IPTVEdition.mspx


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

What is the backbone of Tivo's business model? Is it based on hardware sales or subscriptions?

Who is competing for the money that would otherwise go for Tivo subscriptions?


----------



## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Justin Thyme said:


> What is the backbone of Tivo's business model? Is it based on hardware sales or subscriptions?


Subs.



> Who is competing for the money that would otherwise go for Tivo subscriptions?


Mostly cable and satellite non-TiVo DVR service.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I find it hard to really consider any of these "competitors" as competitors. I think the point is that there aren't any other companies willing to engage in a consumer-focused business for DVRs.


----------



## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Tells you all you need to know about DVR as an industry, doesn't it?


----------



## supasta (May 6, 2006)

bicker said:


> I find it hard to really consider any of these "competitors" as competitors. I think the point is that there aren't any other companies willing to engage in a consumer-focused business for DVRs.


+1

The only "true" head-to-head competitor that TiVo really had was ReplayTV, and whats left of them, well, it almost non-existent.

CableCo DVRs are and should be TiVos main focus right now. They have to compete with that.


----------



## Trel (Mar 12, 2007)

The answer will depend on what you consider to be TiVo's target market.

Is TiVo chasing the commodity DVR market or are they targeting a premium market? I would say a bit of both.

TiVo as a hardware company is in competition with all makers of DVR hardware sold by cable or satellite providers.

TiVo as a software company is in competition with the authors of the iGuide and others like them.

I don't see TiVo being in competition with Microsoft or MythTV in the HTPC market as TiVo really isn't a PC and isn't intended to be. It is more aligned as a set top box and performs like a set top box.


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

bilbo said:


> Current Competitors:
> Moxi
> Scientific Atlanta (owned by Cisco Systems)
> Motorola
> ...


To me, the main competitors would be:
Moxi
Scientific Atlanta (SARA)
TV Guide/Gemstar (they do the iGuide software for many Motorola cable boxes and the aforementioned LG DVR)
Microsoft (via Media Center PC, IPTV and MSTV Foundation Edition software on cable boxes)
Aptiv/Pioneer Digital (makers of Passport software that goes on many cable boxes)
NDS (software that runs on DirecTVs current PVRs)
Echostar (unclear how much of their software is actually done by OpenTV)

MythTV and ReplayTV to me are niche markets.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

The FCC -- HD and IPTV delivery systems are where the money will be and if TiVo is frozen out of that new digital market then it will join the ranks of MythTV and replatTV.


now in its present form of a DVR there is still a lot of life in that market and there yes it is the cable company DVRs that have a large market share that TiVo would otherwise have (my definition of a main competitor)


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

supasta said:


> CableCo DVRs are and should be TiVos main focus right now. They have to compete with that.


To Compete or to Co-opt? That is the question. Actually Comcast Tivo-lite co-opts them- folks get a taste of Tivo, and know they have to get a "real" Tivo box to get the full experience. Of course, Cableco's Comcast and Cox think they are co-opting Tivo, but that's the standard dance in business. The parties simply have different assumptions about how things are going to play out. We'll see.



Trel said:


> I don't see TiVo being in competition with Microsoft or MythTV in the HTPC market as TiVo really isn't a PC and isn't intended to be.


It's odd to me that the PC guys haven't yet figured out how poor a fit an MCE box (client or full pc) is for the living room. HP dropped its MCE boxes for the living room (the digital entertainment centre line) and is now integrating a Vista MCE extender into its HDTVs. You have a dedicated Vista MCE vacuum cleaner somewhere in the house sucking up video using Vista cablecards, and downloading it off the net. You know- it's what every small business does- set up a massive server, and then you install a bunch of dumb clients. Well- maybe. But then every grandma has to understand they have to walk into another room to reboot a box when their Television goes on the fritz and they will just have to get used to Virus alert software popping up in the middle of the playing of movies, and how the grandson isn't allowed to run any games on this expensive box because 4 out 7 times it screws up the television in some way....

I guess including a Cablecard into a flatscreen wasn't problematic enough. Ok- so instead they integrate an MCE client software that necessitates the purchase of a $1500+ dedicated box. I wonder how many non PC manufacturers will think that is the wave of the future.

Anyway, CE/PC guys seem genetically predisposed not to understand the VCR flashing 12:00 problem.

It was proposed before, but could be a surprizing horse in the race. Assume the HP strategy and just substitute Tivo for MCE client. That is, what happens when S3-lite circuitry becomes cheap enough for manufacturers to integrate in their HDTVs? You know- Easy UI, pause your TV, be able to catch another show that is on at the next time as another, things that should be basic TV functionality. Then add the bonus Gee Whiz features- Unified guide for internet and cable/satco channels, amazon movies, simple cablecard HDTV, yahoo weather, easy way to get photos, music, family video channels over internet, etc etc. Tivo makes some free network aware type Tivo Basic thing so that people can get enough of a taste of Tivo to go for a Sub.


----------



## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

Mediacenter is included in every copy of vista home premium; it's basically free now. Of course you can't load up vista on your old computer and watch digital cable, so the series3 is safe. 

Really TiVo's only significant competition is the cable company's free DVR. But that's certainly enough. It's 2007; the SA8300HD is very usable and will only improve as time goes by.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

du1024 said:


> Obviously the cable affiliates.
> 
> Who else?
> 
> Thanks a lot!


I think over the Next 5 years, the major competitor will be:

Joost, now in private beta.

http://www.joost.com/

Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joost


----------



## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

bicker said:


> I find it hard to really consider any of these "competitors" as competitors. I think the point is that there aren't any other companies willing to engage in a consumer-focused business for DVRs.


If anyone is going to make TiVo extinct it will be from the cable company DVRs. To ignore them as competitors is I think a mistake.

What do I base that off of? My reading the S3 Forum on TC. Countless threads ask the same question - is the S3 worth the cost relative to very inexpensive cable company DVR that they can get?

TiVo users such as both of us define who TiVo's competitors are and those competitors are very much the cable company DVRs.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

rodalpho said:


> Mediacenter is included in every copy of vista home premium; it's basically free now.


It used to be included in many computers before Vista Home Premium (even laptops - the $600 Toshiba I bought in December came with MC 2005 pre-installed).

The difference is that the first MC PCs that shipped came with remote control and tuner cards built in. I think it was a requirement back then, or if it wasn't it was at least standard.

After a while it seems that the hardware side of it was mostly dropped by manufacturers. My guess is that people simply didn't care much about it, and thus it was unnecessary for the manufacturers to keep pushing it.

Has anyone here ever met anyone who actually runs and uses a MC based PC on their main TV in the living room?


----------



## captain_video (Mar 1, 2002)

Youi can only consider competitive products based on the type of service provider. In most markets there is only one competitor to Tivo. 

For example, with DirecTV you have the now defunct DTivo units vs. DTV's NDS DVRs (not really a fair comparison since the DTivos are no longer manufactured or supplied by DTV). 

With OTA HD capability you have the HDTivo (requires a DTV sub), S3 Tivo (Tivo service only), HTPCs (no sub), most DTV and Dish HD receivers (requires a sub to the respective service). 

With standard cable and analog OTA broadcasts you have the SA Tivo, Dual Tuner Tivo, ReplayTV, numerous short-lived DVRs introduced by RCA (Scenium) and several others.

With digital cable you have the S3 Tivo, Motorola DVRs, Scientific Atlanta DVRs, and the new Digeo DVRs (soon to be introduced with cablecard and MRV functionality; they make the current Moxi Boxes). I believe the DT Tivo can also record digital cable on one of its tuners.

I'd have to say that Tivo has the analog cable market pretty much all to themselves, at least as far as any new business, with their SA and DT Tivos. Most of their competition ion this area has pretty much dried up and disappeared. Unfortunately for Tivo, analog cable and OTA broadcasting will become a thing of the past as well, eliminating this market stronghold for them. They can still record the analog output from a set top box, regardless of which provider is being used, which will slow down their demise in most markets for those that don't mind not having an integrated receiver/DVR combo.

I think the new Digeo DVRs will afford the greatest threat to Tivo in the near future. It has cablecard slots and can be set up for MRV with HD content. Look for this one to shake things up a bit once it hits the shelves. FYI - it was introduced at this year's CES.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

The DVRS supplied by the content providers; satellite, cable, FiOS are the primary competitors. They are in position to subsidize hardware. They can price the DVR as an "add on" over the price for just normal receiver. The program guide data is already being sent. The extra cost is for the hard drive, and software, which doesn't cost that much, at the quantities being purchased. 

Most customers buy their cell phone, at a subsidized price, from their carrier. I think DVRs will become the same. I don't think tivo will have much competition in the stand alone market.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> I think over the Next 5 years, the major competitor will be:
> 
> Joost, now in private beta.
> 
> ...


If that was available for the smartphone yet I would like an invite :up: 
and yes that was just the kind of thing TiVo will need to keep an eye on as it looks to compete in the Broadband delivered world.
Now that I think about it some, just like Joost, TiVo can go this new delivery pipeline and circumvent the cable and sat providers and dealing with getting content to record from their systems.


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Their only REAL competitors are DirecTV, Dish, and Cable DVR's.

Especially Dish and DirecTV, because the only way to use their HD service is with their in-house dvr's. And, both of these companies have invested heavily into competing products. (Transferring shows to other TV's, portable devices, etc.)


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Their only REAL competitors are DirecTV, Dish, and Cable DVR's.
> 
> Especially Dish and DirecTV, because the only way to use their HD service is with their in-house dvr's. And, both of these companies have invested heavily into competing products. (Transferring shows to other TV's, portable devices, etc.)


so Dish supports a nice big list of portable devices? or do I use just the one they specify? Does DirectTv support portable devices? Does either support mRV yet?


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

I guess I'll assume you really want to know the answer to these...

First, my comment was aimed at high definition, and second I'm not launching into a debate I just said that Dish and DirecTV were TiVo's biggest competitor.



ZeoTiVo said:


> so Dish supports a nice big list of portable devices? Does DirectTv support portable devices?


TiVo's HD DVR does not support ANY portable devices.

Dish supports three portable devices called Pocket Dish. Here is their website if you'd like to read up on it.

http://www.pocketdish.com/?section=products

As far as DirecTV, a feature called DirecTV2Go was announced at CES...



ZeoTiVo said:


> Does either support mRV yet?


TiVo's HD DVR does not. Dish's does. Their HD DVR has an output for a second TV and a UHF remote. Both TV's can independently watch different shows.


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

CaptainV- I thought Moxi would have to go through the same CableLabs certification process for interfaces and formats for shows being transmitted outside of their box. Have they gotten this certification? After the CES announcement, I would have thought we would have heard something more substantial by now. After all, if they want to hit christmas with a box sold direct to consumers instead of through cablecos, then those plans necessarily touch a lot of folks outside of Diego. I would think that a bunch of leaks would have come out by now.

Adam- Actually, you can output Directv HD shows to portable devices (True- this requires a modded HR10). If DirecTv wants to provide TTG, Tivo is ready to provide them competition for Dish's offering. Regarding cable HD dvrs, once the Cablelabs blockage on TTG is cleared, there will be no trouble outputing shows from the S3, so your point is a little academic. Sure- the provider is only too happy to provide connectivity if they get to own the whole proprietary enchilada- their handhelds, their formats, their boxes, and oh yeah- charges for every "innovation" they deliver to you. It's a proprietary lock in scheme and it stinks. It would be acceptable to many users if it were actually good technology, but it isn't. I personally like the size of the archos high end player, but face it- the UI stinks big time.

Anyhow, I use TTG to output kids shows to the video iPod in the car- my niece uses it to the Creative Zen I gave her. Tivo software runs on PCs and macs. Non proprietary. 

As soon as competitors try a lock in strategy, I think people are going to smell the rat.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> I guess I'll assume you really want to know the answer to these....


 Yes, I am interested in any new info on these. Also your claim of them spending big money would hopefully lead to bigger news. I still see a lock in strategy and I see cable labs working to keep MRV/TTG contained on the S3. They are definitely competitors but I still see TiVo as the most open and thus best solution for me. But I do agree they are indeed competitors


----------



## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Justin Thyme said:


> CaptainV- I thought Moxi would have to go through the same CableLabs certification process for interfaces and formats for shows being transmitted outside of their box. Have they gotten this certification?


Unless I am wrong Moxi isn't a consumer product that one could buy, but a platform leased by, and in control of the provider, and hence its features need not be approved by Cableleabs, just the client provider themselves.


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

classicsat said:


> Unless I am wrong Moxi isn't a consumer product that one could buy....


Well, historically that has been true, but what CaptainV was refering to was their CES announcement that changed all that. Reportedly, by second half of 2007, Diego will sell an MCard as well as an OTA only Moxi DVR direct to the public. It is a server client thing- so you have one beefy DVR for the house, then a bunch of clients like MCE extenders. I say beefy because they are using AMD's answer to Viiv- so they are into a PC platform type scheme. It's going to be hot, expensive, and won't be able to bypass Cablelabs as Intel proposes to the FCC that DHCP be allowed to do.

For more details, read Dave Zatz's writeup, but also note Mega's two responses which make excellent observations regarding CableLabs certification.

One of them was that he remarked that they seemed cocky about it. I wonder if they have thought about what the cableco's would think about a product that essentially would allow a household to be charged for a single digital/ HD outlet, and feed several different TVs. That's anywhere between 90 and 140 dollars less money per year per outlet in the cableco's pocket.

And they think they are going to sail through certification like their CableCo contracted boxes did? Seems a little naive to me.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

captain_video said:


> I think the new Digeo DVRs will afford the greatest threat to Tivo in the near future. It has cablecard slots and can be set up for MRV with HD content. Look for this one to shake things up a bit once it hits the shelves. FYI - it was introduced at this year's CES.


But still no stand-alone DVR product to purchase yet, eh?


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

captain_video said:


> I think the new Digeo DVRs will afford the greatest threat to Tivo in the near future. It has cablecard slots and can be set up for MRV with HD content. Look for this one to shake things up a bit once it hits the shelves. FYI - it was introduced at this year's CES.


I would love for that to come out as it is specced. It would indeed provide competition to TiVo and that is a good thing for both. TiVo has hit a very large speed bump at cable labs and it would be good to have more products and their features looking to be certified. We would be more likely to see some movement on getting things like MRV and pulling allowed shows off the box, etc..
After reading how they consider cablelabs certification a minor thing and had no real idea what the Tivo S3 could do I am not confident this will become a real competitor to shake up the market however


----------



## captain_video (Mar 1, 2002)

I have no idea what the situation is with Cablelabs certification on this device. I just saw an article on it in the latest issue of The Perfect Vision and passed it along. Here's a press release from the Digeo website:

http://www.digeo.com/press_pressrelease.aspx?id=4

The box I was referring to is a DMR (Digital Media Recorder) that will record and distribute all sorts of digital media as well as having an integrated DVD player. It has cablecard slots and requires a monthly fee for services similar to what Tivo provides. I look at it as a HTPC with cablecards.

Here's a link with a picture of the DMR. It's in the upper right corner:

http://www.digeo.com/tech.aspx

I believe Digeo has licensed their Moxi technology to cable providers in the past and is now looking to enter the consumer market directly with this device. The press release says it will be marketed in 2007 so we'll just have to keep our eyes and ears open to see when and if it will ever hit the shelves.


----------



## Lord Nimon (Apr 3, 2001)

Netflix. If you're willing to wait a year, you can watch your favorite TV series on DVD. No commercials, no editing, no schedule changes, no pre-emption. It's better than TiVo.

(Yes, I know not all shows become available on DVD, but there may be enough of them that people decide, "I don't need a TiVo, I only watch a couple shows a week live, and it's not worth getting a TiVo for that.")


----------



## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Justin Thyme said:
 

> Well, historically that has been true, but what CaptainV was refering to was their CES announcement that changed all that. Reportedly, by second half of 2007, Diego will sell an MCard as well as an OTA only Moxi DVR direct to the public. It is a server client thing- so you have one beefy DVR for the house, then a bunch of clients like MCE extenders.


In that case, just by reading Dave's article and MZ's response, for the Cablecard unit, at least the one sold to the public, will have to go through the approval process. They might be able use their "approval" for the leased box as leverage to get approval for the same features for retail boxes. Advanced features that cable doesn't want, and involve cable sourced content, will need approved also.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

classicsat said:


> In that case, just by reading Dave's article and MZ's response, for the Cablecard unit, at least the one sold to the public, will have to go through the approval process. They might be able use their "approval" for the leased box as leverage to get approval for the same features for retail boxes. Advanced features that cable doesn't want, and involve cable sourced content, will need approved also.


i dont beleive the "leased" box gets approval of any sort and that's the rub.

THe current moto and SA dvr's dont get approval. And posts here seem to indicate that NONE of the impending cablecard "in house" boxes that cable will begin using on July 1 will get cablelabs approval either...


----------



## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

sounds like a good case for an anti-trust lawsuit.



MichaelK said:


> i dont beleive the "leased" box gets approval of any sort and that's the rub.
> 
> THe current moto and SA dvr's dont get approval. And posts here seem to indicate that NONE of the impending cablecard "in house" boxes that cable will begin using on July 1 will get cablelabs approval either...


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

well actually I think the tact would be to complate about the lack of shared reliance (I think that's the term)- essentially there's an argument to be made to(or even by) the fcc that both cable and the 3rd party folks should have to deal with the same systems.

In fact it's part of the basis for the integration ban itself- theory is if cable has to rely on the separate security (cablecards) then they will support them properly. 

So the argument becomes if cable doesn't have to get their own boxes approved by cablelabs is that equal to the way 3rd parties are treated.


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

MichaelK said:


> well actually I think the tact would be to complate about the lack of shared reliance (I think that's the term)- essentially there's an argument to be made to(or even by) the fcc that both cable and the 3rd party folks should have to deal with the same systems.
> 
> In fact it's part of the basis for the integration ban itself- theory is if cable has to rely on the separate security (cablecards) then they will support them properly.
> 
> So the argument becomes if cable doesn't have to get their own boxes approved by cablelabs is that equal to the way 3rd parties are treated.


IANAL, but I think that if cable companies are forced to except 3rd party equipment to be used on their system, they have a right to request that equipment complies with their standards. They don't need to certify that their own equipment complies with standards because if something goes wrong it their own problem.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

samo said:


> IANAL, but I think that if cable companies are forced to except 3rd party equipment to be used on their system, they have a right to request that equipment complies with their standards. They don't need to certify that their own equipment complies with standards because if something goes wrong it their own problem.


that would certainly be the cable company's argument.

But the FCC or CE company's could argue that it's not shared reliance then if they still really aren't jumping through all the hoops.

Myself, I don't think it's clear cut one way or the other.

PS- just found the term is "common" reliance- not shared....


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

samo said:


> they have a right to request that equipment complies with their standards.


Do Cable Companies have a right to be informed of all innovations in CE devices attached to a cable network? Do they have the right to block or delay those innovations while their own devices are not similarly delayed?

The central question is really this: What right does CableLabs have to enforce any standard that has nothing to do with a Cable company's physical security or network security?


----------

