# TiVo 7.3/7.3.1 Slowdown News



## tallbob (Jun 6, 2006)

Hi,

Has anyone gotten anything official out of TiVo concerning the user interface slowdown in 7.3/7.3.1? Anything "sort of" official from other sources not quoted here in this forum? I'd just love to hear someone from TiVo say that this is a _*serious*_ problem and that a fix is in the works.

My 7.3.1, 540, 40-hour Tivo is slow enough so that yesterday I begged off having a friend come over to get a TiVo demo. Pre 7.3, I had four people over during the last year and convinced two of them to join the Tivolution.

Bob

P.S. I've not lost hope as I've got a 180hr DT machine on the way at the moment.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

The DT is much faster moving through the menus except with 7.3.x the ToDo list and Now Playing become horribly slow. So much so that going to my todo list results in it being empty every once in a while. I have to scroll around for the items to show up.


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## jaybird13 (Nov 6, 2005)

It was horrible in 7.3, but 7.3.1 improved speed a bit. 

Still not as fast as the previous software, though.

Once you get your DT in, it'll feel like you're in hyper-speed. That is - until TiVo updates the software to 7.3.1. That happened to me this weekend when I got my DT in.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

my 7.3.1 experience is that it was slow at first but after a few days it sped back up and is working at the speed expected relative to the TiVo DVR model it is on.


and yes a DT is faster :up:


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I guess I'm fortunate as I'm still at 7.2 something on both of my boxes. TiVo must have halted implementation until the bugs could be worked out.


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## annenoe (Oct 19, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> I guess I'm fortunate as I'm still at 7.2 something on both of my boxes. TiVo must have halted implementation until the bugs could be worked out.


I'm wondering about that as well. After reading this, I keep looking at my version and hoping I **don't** get upgraded. I can't find anything about whether they have halted upgrades but hoping they have.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> I guess I'm fortunate as I'm still at 7.2 something on both of my boxes. TiVo must have halted implementation until the bugs could be worked out.


probably just rolling slowly due to CSR impacts based on the 7.3.1 bug thread.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> probably just rolling slowly due to CSR impacts based on the 7.3.1 bug thread.


With all the time CSRs are spending reading our opinions on the S3 so they can give callers unauthorized info, I hope I never see 7.3.whatever until everything is peachy.


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## bmb (Sep 13, 2005)

I didn't know about this slowdown issue, and I ended up getting 7.3.1 because I signed up for the priority list and man do I regret that, this software is horrible on a 540 model. 

When I delete something now, I can actually see it put an "x" next to the name for a second or so, then the show disappears. And I see the slowdown everywhere else as well.

This is painful.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

bmb said:


> When I delete something now, I can actually see it put an "x" next to the name for a second or so, then the show disappears.


 That's because that's how it was designed...

It's the new batch/rapid-delete feature...

Previously, you'd get a pop-up that it was deleting the file, or the system would pause while it was deleting the file, and you would not be returned to the NPL until the file was gone...

Now, it places an "X" next to the recording to indicate that it's going to be deleted, and is then deleted in the background while we go on to do other things, or to mark several files in succession to be deleted... no longer having to delete > confirm > wait > delete... we can just delete > delete > delete > delete...

But, yes, it is slower on the 540, mainly in the To Do List and Guide, but as others have stated, the newer DT's are faster...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mchips said:


> But, yes, it is slower on the 540, mainly in the To Do List and Guide, but as others have stated, the newer DT's are faster...


If it's as slow as people say on a 540, I'd hate to see what it would be like on my 240 which has a slower processor speed than the 540. Thankfully I haven't gotten the upgrade yet (still at 7.2.2b).


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

morac said:


> If it's as slow as people say on a 540, I'd hate to see what it would be like on my 240 which has a slower processor speed than the 540. Thankfully I haven't gotten the upgrade yet (still at 7.2.2b).


 I've never had a 240, but everything that I've heard, from others who do, points to the 240 being faster than the 540... the 140 is also faster than the 540, and more in line with the speed of a 240 from what I hear... I have a 140, 540, and three DT's...

But the speed on the 540 isn't as bad for me as some people are claiming (but then people typically tend to overstate things they don't like, not that anyone here would ever do that  )...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mchips said:


> I've never had a 240, but everything that I've heard, from others who do, points to the 240 being faster than the 540... the 140 is also faster than the 540, and more in line with the speed of a 240 from what I hear... I have a 140, 540, and three DT's...


The 240 is faster at transfering shows than the 540 do to the 540 using an inferior USB chipset (compared to the 240). The 540's CPU is actually more powerful than the 240's. Since the USB chipset isn't involved with the GUI interface I would assume the 240's slower processor would make the GUI slower than on the 540. The grid guide data is cached so the grid guide GUI speeds should be similar (though I've always found the grid guide to be sluggish, it takes about a second or two when paging up or down in the guide).


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

I can't personally speak for the 240 (and can only go on what I've heard many others say about it), but I can say that the 140 is faster than the 540, in more than just transfer speeds...


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## themckee (Jan 2, 2005)

My 540 is quite slow with 7.3.1, and not just in the menus! The tuners seems to have slowed down to about 3 times slower than before!


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## dwarner (Feb 14, 2003)

morac said:


> If it's as slow as people say on a 540, I'd hate to see what it would be like on my 240 which has a slower processor speed than the 540. Thankfully I haven't gotten the upgrade yet (still at 7.2.2b).


I posted this before in the problems forum, but since this thread is 7.3.1 specific, I'll repost it here, anddelete the other one of possible

240 model Series2 Software version 7.3.1-oth-01-2-140. The recent update
that added the KidZone feature really screwed up the live mode channel
banners.

When changing channels, the show title in the banner used to change
instantly, making it easy to return to a specific channel if you were
surfing during a commercial.

Now, the title updates about a second after the channel button is
pressed, just before the video unblanks. =20
Worse yet, if you change too fast, the banner STOPS changing, while
the actual channels continue to change. It you start off pressing too
fast, the banner never appears.

Try this: Press CH-UP once, wait until the banner appears, then start
pressing quickly, In my case, it never changes again until I stop
pressing. =20
Where I used to get immediate feedback, now I get none. This is extremely
annoying. Before, I could press quickly, waiting for the previous show's name to come up, then stop on it. Now, this is impossible, and I have to press, wait, press, wait, forever.

(Yes, I still watch in live mode, when there's nothing in NP.)

Also, the slowness in NP has caused me to accidentally delete an unwatched show. When the show didn't disappear immediately after pressing the button, I pressed again, and ended up deleting TWO shows. I had to retrieve the second one from the trash.


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## subslug (Nov 16, 2005)

I wonder if we can expect something to be done about this? I don't have any kids so this update was a double whammy. Just channel surfing is painfully slow now, that's one of the main reasons I didn't want a silly cable tuner box.
You'd think if you elected to not use this crappy kidzone stuff then you could still have decent tivo funtion.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

morac said:


> If it's as slow as people say on a 540, I'd hate to see what it would be like on my 240 which has a slower processor speed than the 540. Thankfully I haven't gotten the upgrade yet (still at 7.2.2b).


I have a 240 and thta is my lifetime box while I did not consider the 540 worth a lifetime subscription. The 240 is a better box all around and faster than the 540.

My boxes in order of basic performance
DT 649
240
SD H400 (Toshiba DVD player)
540
RS TX20 (Toshiba DVD burner)

my 540 will go go bye-bye(will probably try PROM hack on it since I consider it valueless otherwise (prepaid monthly on it now)
the Toshiba's will be going back to TiVo Basic


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> My boxes in order of basic performance
> DT 649
> 240
> SD H400 (Toshiba DVD player)
> ...


As TiVo DVR's, why do you rate the Toshiba models differently? Is it just speed or are there other differences of functionality? Why do you like the Toshiba DVD player better than the burner, and why is the 540 in between the two Toshibas?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> As TiVo DVR's, why do you rate the Toshiba models differently? Is it just speed or are there other differences of functionality? Why do you like the Toshiba DVD player better than the burner, and why is the 540 in between the two Toshibas?


this was a *performance (read speed)* comparison
for whatever reason my SD H400 - which the kids use is faster than the 540 or the DVD burner model.

The DVD burner model still runs acceptably fast - it is just a step slower than the 540 and MRV is slowest from it for whatever reason. Could be just my network even.

For functionality 
I love the DVD playback on the DVD burner unit that is TiVo like interface. :up: 
being able to burn a DVD steps it up a notch as well 

but since this is a thread about slowdown with 7.3.1 I will stay with the performance listing


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## JamieP (Aug 3, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> this was a *performance (read speed)* comparison
> for whatever reason my SD H400 - which the kids use is faster than the 540 or the DVD burner model.


The sd-h400 is a series 2 (like the 240), while the rs-tx20 is a series 2.5 (like the 540).

There shouldn't be any performance difference between the sd-h400 and a 240. The dvd player is completely decoupled from the tivo and doesn't affect performance of the tivo side. Different now playing lists, season pass lists, etc, can affect performance, so that might be the difference.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

subslug said:


> I wonder if we can expect something to be done about this? I don't have any kids so this update was a double whammy. Just channel surfing is painfully slow now, that's one of the main reasons I didn't want a silly cable tuner box.
> You'd think if you elected to not use this crappy kidzone stuff then you could still have decent tivo funtion.


There was a similar problem when (IIRC) 7.2 was first released - many people noticed the menus were slow. It took a while, but a subsequent release did return most of the TiVo's back to their former quickness, so I hope something similar will happen for 7.3.

I don't believe TiVo ever admitted a problem, but they fixed it before, so I think they'll fix it again.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have a 240 and thta is my lifetime box while I did not consider the 540 worth a lifetime subscription. The 240 is a better box all around and faster than the 540.


Do you have 7.3.1 on both the 240 and the 540? 
Just want to make sure you aren't comparing apples to oranges here.


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## c.scheers (Feb 12, 2006)

I just received 7.3.1. I went directly from 7.2.2 (I think) and never had 7.3. This is on a 540 w/250GB.

The biggest irritation I have noticed is the delay when changing channels on live TV.

Previously, it seemed that when changing channels the channel banner updated immediately and the video cut in a fraction of a second later. You could flip through several channels reading the banner with no video showing.

Now, the banner gets updated a fraction of a second after the video resumes showing. During that fraction of a second, the banner is displaying the wrong information. It does not reflect the current channel.

The biggest problem is if you need to channel up/down several channels. You no longer have feedback to know when you have gotten to the correct channel. Generally you need to get close, wait a second for the TiVo to catch up, then adjust. This was never a problem before.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

c.scheers said:


> I just received 7.3.1. I went directly from 7.2.2 (I think) and never had 7.3. This is on a 540 w/250GB.
> 
> The biggest irritation I have noticed is the delay when changing channels on live TV.
> 
> ...


One of the nice things (The only one I can think of) about the cable set top box is that when changing channels rapidly only the banner updates until you stop. That way you can scroll through the list quickly, looking only at the banner info to see if you are on the right channel. When I wasn't using ir blasters tivo responded so quickly I didn't miss that feature, but now I do.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

morac said:


> Do you have 7.3.1 on both the 240 and the 540?
> Just want to make sure you aren't comparing apples to oranges here.


7.3.1.oth on all of them.

and yes jamieP the SD H400 is a 240 with a so-so DVD player. I edited that out of my post to keep it clearer. I was afraid if I said it was like a 240 in my post people might start getting model numbers confused. Thanks for the clarifying post :up:


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## ehagberg (Dec 27, 2004)

I have 7.3.1 on a 240 series 2.

It used to be slow after the machine had been running for a couple weeks - that was back in the 7.2.x days.

Now that I'm on 7.3.1, it gets slow almost immediately following a reboot.

It takes 10 seconds or so just to get a response when hitting the TiVo button on the remote (though the yellow led lights up right away), and even hitting the 30-sec skip takes a second or two before it skips ahead. You never know (if not looking for the yellow led) whether your remote's batteries are dying or it's just the TiVo making up it's mind about whether it feels like doing what you asked.

Doesn't anyone else find this "improvement" just a little ridiculous?


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## rsnaider (Apr 25, 2002)

I have the same slowness on all my boxes. The worst is the Toshiba but that box has always been slower (different cpu, etc.).

A reboot is a temporary fix that for me only lasts about 2 weeks before another reboot is necessary just to get usability back.


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## UncleBoarder (Sep 6, 2005)

I Loved it when I bought it. They keep sending updates that make it slower and slower. I will no longer recommend TiVo to my friends.

STOP IT TiVo. Stop downloading "improvements" to MY TiVo. I don't need bloated code. I need a responsive machine. I need the machine I bought!

How about letting USERS select feature sets? TiVo is trying to make choices to make everyone happy. It's a no win. Wake up!! Let your users choose what's important. For some it will be features. For some a single second of delay after pushing a button is too much. How can you make us both happy. You can't!!

UNLESS... Unless TiVo let's the USER choose. Call them. Tell them to stop dictating features. I did.


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## Lenonn (May 31, 2004)

c.scheers said:


> I just received 7.3.1. I went directly from 7.2.2 (I think) and never had 7.3. This is on a 540 w/250GB.
> 
> The biggest irritation I have noticed is the delay when changing channels on live TV.
> 
> ...


I've been having the same problem, too. It started with 7.3.1.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

My TiVo just upgraded from 7.2.2b to 7.3.1 and while I did notice slowdown, it was very minor. Pretty much everything is the same speed as before except the Now Playing and To Do list where I can see each line on the screen being populated one at a time. It still only took about 1 or 2 seconds for each screen to populate and it seemed to cache the data because paging down and back up displayed the screen instantly. I was looking at this while my TiVo was actually loading data from just doing a service connection (which normally slows my TiVo down anyway) so it might have been from that. I did notice other glitches, but they aren't performance related.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

UncleBoarder said:


> I Loved it when I bought it. They keep sending updates that make it slower and slower. I will no longer recommend TiVo to my friends.
> 
> STOP IT TiVo. Stop downloading "improvements" to MY TiVo. I don't need bloated code. I need a responsive machine. I need the machine I bought!
> 
> ...


You and my wife need to get together. She is LIVID with Tivo right now. She went off on me last night after a spontaneous Tivo reboot about how bad/slow the new software is and why can't Tivo go back to the old software and why did Tivo ruin our machine and why did they release something they knew was not as good as the current release and and and . . . I told her to have another cocktail.

While I'm sure they will fix the speed issue, they can't possibly do it fast enough to repair the damage they have done to their relationship with loyal Tivo customers. Personally, I can live with the slowness, but many cannot. My real concern is new Tivo buyers who get their box home and enjoy it for a day or two and then 7.3.1 loads and bam! Unhappy customer. That is not gonna sit well.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

UncleBoarder said:


> I Loved it when I bought it. They keep sending updates that make it slower and slower. I will no longer recommend TiVo to my friends.
> 
> STOP IT TiVo. Stop downloading "improvements" to MY TiVo. I don't need bloated code. I need a responsive machine. I need the machine I bought!
> 
> ...


I'm going to assume you aren't trolling.... 

I just got the update last night and while I haven't used the TiVo for more than 15 minutes I do know that I do not want TiVo to stop updating my box. When they stop, it'll mean I have an obsolete POS and that future support for devices won't be included. I'd like for any speed issues to be addressed as well as bugs, but don't think burying my head in the sand and not wanting any improvements is the way to go. Keep bringing the updates on TiVo, just not the ads so much.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> I'm going to assume you aren't trolling....
> 
> I just got the update last night and while I haven't used the TiVo for more than 15 minutes I do know that I do not want TiVo to stop updating my box. When they stop, it'll mean I have an obsolete POS and that future support for devices won't be included. I'd like for any speed issues to be addressed as well as bugs, but don't think burying my head in the sand and not wanting any improvements is the way to go. Keep bringing the updates on TiVo, just not the ads so much.


Its not the updates that are the problem - its the philosophy of shove out the update now and get it right later. Meanwhile the customer base is frustrated and angry.

There's a difference between an obscure bug that only happens when a user performs some combination of actions not normally done and out and out flagrantly obvious performance issues that nearly everyone notices and gets frustrated with.

The icing on the cake is when TiVo personnel make statements to the effect that the vast majority of the users are not seeing the problems when its obvious that they are.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

RoyK said:


> The icing on the cake is when TiVo personnel make statements to the effect that the vast majority of the users are not seeing the problems when its obvious that they are.


I'm not. My friends haven't noticed any trouble. The vast majority of people on the dozen or more TiVo communities I visit haven't mentioned anything. Just what makes it 'obvious' that the majority of users are seeing problems?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I just want to report that the slowdowns I saw are more or less gone. The Now Playing list occasionally takes a second to draw, but most of the time it just displays. So my only gripe about 7.3.1 is the broken channel banner in that it displays way to long for the quick clear setting (8 seconds).


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## kickerman97 (Jan 27, 2005)

c.scheers said:


> I just received 7.3.1. I went directly from 7.2.2 (I think) and never had 7.3. This is on a 540 w/250GB.
> 
> The biggest irritation I have noticed is the delay when changing channels on live TV.
> 
> ...


This is the same annoying problem that I am having. Started today after I received the new service update.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

megazone said:


> I'm not. My friends haven't noticed any trouble. The vast majority of people on the dozen or more TiVo communities I visit haven't mentioned anything. Just what makes it 'obvious' that the majority of users are seeing problems?


Which is why when TivoOpsMgr said it would only effect a minor subset of people, I asked what that statement was based on. It almost sounded like they know it only affects specific configs/models. Otherwise it's a kind of a weird statement.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Stu_Bee said:


> Which is why when TivoOpsMgr said it would only effect a minor subset of people, I asked what that statement was based on. It almost sounded like they know it only affects specific configs/models. Otherwise it's a kind of a weird statement.


I think all the models are affected it's just that some are affected more than others. For example I have a 240 and I do see minor slowdowns periodically since upgrading, but it's not enough to bother me or get me to call support. I think people with the DTs are in the same boat. I think people who are having the most issues have the 540 model (which already has a number of issues to begin with). I'm not sure what the numbers are for each, but considering the 240 was out longer I would think more people would have that. Technically that would put the 540 in the minority. I think it mainly depends on people's tolerance.


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## OldTownTreadles (Mar 15, 2006)

subslug said:


> I wonder if we can expect something to be done about this? I don't have any kids so this update was a double whammy. Just channel surfing is painfully slow now, that's one of the main reasons I didn't want a silly cable tuner box.
> You'd think if you elected to not use this crappy kidzone stuff then you could still have decent tivo funtion.


I'm with you on this. I don't have any Young kids, don't need a zone, and don't need things so slow. When my Tivo's the slowest thing in the house, that's bad. And for what?


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## wrhahn (Dec 9, 2005)

While I wouldn't wish this pain on anyone, I'm glad it's not just me. I just got the update on my Humax DRT800 - and I want to pull my hair out. I too, do not have any kids, and not only is this new "feature" useless to me, it's quite painful. Not only do the channels change slower now, the banner is even slower, taking several seconds to catch up. 

Another update less than a year ago "broke" the remote - the remote became un/over-responsive, and I ended up having to go through 4 replacements until I got a hardware version that could take it. 

I know the reality may be that most people aren't affected this way, but from my perspective, they skimped on the QA process a little here (especially the part about making sure you were delivering what the customer wanted)


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## demonmucha (Dec 23, 2005)

wrhahn said:


> While I wouldn't wish this pain on anyone, I'm glad it's not just me. I just got the update on my Humax DRT800 - and I want to pull my hair out. I too, do not have any kids, and not only is this new "feature" useless to me, it's quite painful. Not only do the channels change slower now, the banner is even slower, taking several seconds to catch up.


Ditto. I almost wanted to get my computer running as a DVR again.


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## Bimwad (Jul 4, 2005)

They'd better fix this in 7.3.2.

My machine received the unwelcome update last night. The lag between a command and the response is laughable in some areas now.

Neither the banner nor the video can keep up with channel changes in live TV, not to mention the unwelcome appearance of the time bar, a holdover bug from earlier iterations.

The Guide takes its sweet time as well.

How did this get out of QA?

Add the frills for those who want them, fine, but not at the expense of the core functions.

Thumbs Down x25.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

megazone said:


> I'm not. My friends haven't noticed any trouble. The vast majority of people on the dozen or more TiVo communities I visit haven't mentioned anything. Just what makes it 'obvious' that the majority of users are seeing problems?


I don't have any trouble either - I think basing the fact that the "vast majority" of people are seeing this slowdown based on posts in a thread titled "TiVo 7.3/7.3.1 Slowdown news" is pretty foolish.

The fact that the vast majority of people who are so passionate about their Tivo to come post to a Tivo forum, in a thread about a perceived slowdown really isn't a surprise.

(that said, I'm glad that I don't have a slow Tivo!)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I also just got the 7.3.1 update, and it is a real annoyance on our 5xx. I've noticed no problem whatsoever on our 2xx. I suppose it would have been nice if this didn't happen, but I think it is unreasonable to be able to pick and choose what features are included in a mass-market commercial software product. We have to take the good with the bad. Hopefully, TiVo will find a resolution and apply it soon. I wouldn't take this personally, or assume that it was the result of negligence. Stuff happens. Getting bent out of shape about it doesn't really help your situation, because you never really gain an understanding about why things happen, so you can be better prepared to handle them when they do.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

I can assure you that the slowdown on the Humax DVD units is so significant as to almost render the box near-useless.

I pressed the TIVO button last night and counted 9 seconds before the Menu Graphics appeared.

Pressing the Guide Button during live TV results in a similar 7-9 second delay.. 

I have a 240 series unit and while the slowdown is MUCH LESS noticeable.. it's still MUCH slower than it was with 7.2.2.

j


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

"Near" useless is a subjective judgement. I don't consider a 7-9 second delay, which I do experience when bringing up the TiVo Central page, to make the TiVo even _remotely_ "useless". FF and RW work fine, and clicks up and down through the menus are fine, as is the selection of items in the menus. The 7-9 second delay is annoying, _yes_. It renders the box 80% useful, instead of 100% useful, as far as I can tell. A significant issue, but not critical.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

bicker said:


> "Near" useless is a subjective judgement. I don't consider a 7-9 second delay, which I do experience when bringing up the TiVo Central page, to make the TiVo even _remotely_ "useless". FF and RW work fine, and clicks up and down through the menus are fine, as is the selection of items in the menus. The 7-9 second delay is annoying, _yes_. It renders the box 80% useful, instead of 100% useful, as far as I can tell. A significant issue, but not critical.


Sounds like you work for the cable company. 

If that is not a critical issue, I suggest you try Moxi sometime. It is the number one reason I don't switch to it completely (extremely long delays with any remote command).


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## monkeydust (Dec 12, 2004)

Yeah, I notice it being much slower too. I got the update that mentions the KidZone thing and notice when I am navigating my recorded shows and deleting them, it seems noticebly slower than before.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

I remember someone that sounded very knowledgable about the inner workings of Tivo's, recently made a post about how certain Tivo models had lesser amounts of internal memory (and possibly other hardware configs), and that the newer Tivo software version was now forcing these lesser spec model Tivos to constantly cache and therefore slow things way down.

I hope I'm not making it up, but I might be off in the specifics since I'm paraphrasing from memory. Wish I could find that post.


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## rmryan (Apr 27, 2002)

Just chiming in to say we're experiencing significant user interface slowdowns since the installation of 7.3.1 as well. 540.


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## sgruby (Sep 20, 2004)

My Pioneer 810H got updated this weekend and somehow when it rebooted it hung and didn't record for 2 days until I got back from a trip. After I power cycled it, I was able to get it going again. However, the slowdown is completely unacceptable. It seems to not only affect navigation (my now playing list takes maybe 15-30 seconds to update), it made watching the CNET blog thing unusable. Is there anyway to go back one release? The last release (I think 7.3) was great as I like the one click delete and the ability to undelete.

Please TiVo, fix this, otherwise my wife is going to start cursing at me.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

rainwater said:


> Sounds like you work for the cable company.


No, it sounds like I'm a reasonable, level-headed customer! :up:


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

My Pioneer 810H suffered no ill-effects of the update. It is actually working as well as ever. I love the way delete works now.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

bicker said:


> No, it sounds like I'm a reasonable, level-headed customer! :up:


The point is if the current software is acceptable, then TiVo is making the difference between a cable company DVR and TiVo much smaller. The whole reason TiVo is used by a lot of people instead of a cable co dvr is its usability is so much better. If this is going to be acceptable, then TiVo is starting to act like cable company DVRs and not caring about usability.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Stu_Bee said:


> I remember someone that sounded very knowledgable about the inner workings of Tivo's, recently made a post about how certain Tivo models had lesser amounts of internal memory (and possibly other hardware configs), and that the newer Tivo software version was now forcing these lesser spec model Tivos to constantly cache and therefore slow things way down.
> 
> I hope I'm not making it up, but I might be off in the specifics since I'm paraphrasing from memory. Wish I could find that post.


*This* thread discusses it.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

No..that wasn't it...but I did just find it here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4197301#post4197301


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## robbins (Aug 23, 2005)

I got the update and my Tivo is slower than it used to be, especially in all of the menu's. If this does not change I am dropping Tivo for another DVR.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

Interesting that one person with an 810h says it's hellish slow, while another says it's fine.
I was under the assumption that it was just model related. Maybe it's Model, plus a feature activation (ie turning on HME, or Wifi, or kidzone, etc) that put's it over the top.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Stu_Bee said:


> Interesting that one person with an 810h says it's hellish slow, while another says it's fine.
> I was under the assumption that it was just model related. Maybe it's Model, plus a feature activation (ie turning on HME, or Wifi, or kidzone, etc) that put's it over the top.


 plus personal perception, plus influence from others, plus slight or gross exaggeration depending on the individual... plus subjective relativity...


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Stu_Bee said:


> Interesting that one person with an 810h says it's hellish slow, while another says it's fine.
> I was under the assumption that it was just model related. Maybe it's Model, plus a feature activation (ie turning on HME, or Wifi, or kidzone, etc) that put's it over the top.


Both of my 240's have everything turned on except KidZone and one of the two has been upgraded with a 160gb drive. So far with normal use I haven't seen anything significant, however I have not put either machine though the paces yet, reordering SP's, etc.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

mchips said:


> plus personal perception, plus influence from others, plus slight or gross exaggeration depending on the individual... plus subjective relativity...


plus people that say there are no major issues for anyone, because their own unit does not experience them.
---
If we can think of a way to put a real measurement to these subjective values (ie benchmarking), then it will probably help to identify where the issues lay.

Suggestions? From those experiencing the slowness, where is it consistently slowest? Can a timing of the population of that screen, or action, show a consistent lag (compared to prior versions)?

Ideally, if we can get people with the same models showing different values, then maybe the cause can be narrowed down. Otherwise it may just re-emphasis the model specific variations.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Stu_Bee said:


> plus people that say there are no major issues for anyone, because their own unit does not experience them.


 The same as people saying there are major issues for everyone just because they perceive that their own unit experiences them...


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

mchips said:


> The same as people saying there are major issues for everyone just because they perceive that their own unit experiences them...


Many of the issues exists on all platforms. The lockup issue exists for all DT users. The selection bugs exists on all S2 platforms. Many of the UI inconsistencies have been reported by users of many of the platforms. Some users can not see program details because the TiVo remote doesn't have the button TiVo assumes it has. The speed issue is definately related to the specific model and specifically how you use it. So that is definately subjective. So just because one person doensn't experience the problem doesn't mean a lot of others do. Everyone uses their TiVo differently, so its unfair to say that its not a problem if everyone doesn't experience it.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

rainwater said:


> The lockup issue exists for all DT users.


 No, it does not exist for all users... by your own account, you've only mentioned seeing 5 or 6 others that do...

I have three DT's, and none of them lockup, freeze, reboot or otherwise...

I've never said that yours don't, but you seem to want to continue to say that it affects everyone, when it clearly does not... I've seen many others who also claim they do not experience the lockups that you do...


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

argh..and here I was trying to move the thread towards benchmarking speed (ie the subject of the thread title)


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## Padwen (Aug 29, 2004)

I was very disapointed when this update was pushed into my Tivo. Please, Tivo, explain exactly how degraded performance is better? I'm not a happy customer right now. Yes, the box is still usable, but the whole point of an update is to make things _better_, not worse! The very noticable delays in response to commands which are caused by this update makes me


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## ckinzie (Aug 16, 2006)

I have 2 TiVo's that updated about a week apart. The first thing I noticed was that the banners were slow, but I also noticed another problem that I haven't heard from anyone else.

If I rewind to start watching a program from the beginning while it is still recording and the show ends and stops recording it jumps to the beginning of the next show. I loose my place in the show I was watching. I have to go to the NP and select the show and FF to where I left off. 

Once it spoiled the end of a reality show because it wasn't quite finished with the program when it quit recording (perhaps an additional 30 seconds, but it was enough to see the outcome).

The first time I thought I was just imagining things but it's happened several times now.


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## gconnery (Mar 31, 2006)

To those who don't think the slowdown is affecting that many people...

Read the poll that follows this message in the coffee house. The current numbers show 58% of the people wish they'd never seen the upgrade because of the slowness (and bugs, at least in my case). Another 18% say that while it is slower, they consider it worth it for the new features, KidZone presumably. That totals over 75%--people who consider it slower than before. 

Maybe some of you aren't seeing problems, but most of us are...


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## Schmye Bubbula (Oct 14, 2004)

Here is my correspondence with Weaknees on this:

From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More RAM?
Date: August 15, 2006 8:44:13 PM EDT
To: [Schmye Bubbula]@triad.rr.com

We don't. Older units could take RAM upgrades, although we've never recommended them. As far as we know, there are no RAM upgrades for current units.

Thanks,

WeaKnees.com
http://www.weaknees.com

On Aug 15, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Schmye Bubbula wrote:

As you're presumably well aware, a lot of folks over on the TiVo Community Forums report significant GUI slowdowns with 7.3/7.3.1.

This week my 540 got updated to 7.3.1 and it's become very slow.

Do you offer RAM upgrades? If so, how much is the charge?, and I suppose I'd have to send my TiVo in because I understand that my RAM is soldered to the motherboard and I couldn't do it, right?

--

"... the S2D2 has 64MB of memory verses 32MB in the 240 & 540 models. 7.x does have a big enough memory footprint that it forces some things into swap on a 540.
"I suspect the difference in UI speed is due to the additional memory more than the 10% increase in processor clock rate. People who have upgraded the 540 memory to 64MB have also reported that the UI is zippier."

<http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4197301#post4197301>

-- 
Thanks,
Schmye Bubbula


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## Schmye Bubbula (Oct 14, 2004)

I don't understand why there isn't any more discussion on the need for more RAM.

This isn't just about the 7.3.1 update. As TiVo adds new features, memory-crowding can only get worse.

It makes a lot of sense to me that adding more RAM would help everybody.

I've only got 32 MB on my 540? Sheesh!

Why is Weaknees evading this?

I want more RAM!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

"Evading". Why would you use a word like _that_?


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## Schmye Bubbula (Oct 14, 2004)

bicker said:


> "Evading". Why would you use a word like _that_?


Because in my correspondence with Weaknees, quoted above, they just seemed to blow me off.

They didn't even address the problem and the reasons more RAM may be needed. (Those reasons involved the slowdowns associated with the virtual memory swap file hits imposed by KidZone and other bloated TiVo features.) Indeed, they said, "...we've never recommended them." Well, why not, in light of the reasons I quoted above?

When Weaknees said, "...Older units could take RAM upgrades ... As far as we know, there are no RAM upgrades for current units," presumably they meant that older model TiVos had socketed RAM and current models' RAM is soldered to the motherboard. Well, it's not that hard to solder larger RAM in their place, is it? The TiVo motherboard is no different than any desktop PC computer's motherboard, is it?

It just strikes me that more RAM would solve a lot of problems, and I don't see why upgrades aren't more vigorously pursued.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Schmye Bubbula said:


> Because in my correspondence with Weaknees, quoted above, they just seemed to blow me off.
> 
> They didn't even address the problem and the reasons more RAM may be needed. (Those reasons involved the slowdowns associated with the virtual memory swap file hits imposed by KidZone and other bloated TiVo features.) Indeed, they said, "...we've never recommended them." Well, why not, in light of the reasons I quoted above?
> 
> ...


To me the level of expertise to solder additional Ram onto a TiVo board would make the cost prohibitive to doing the upgrade, especially if a lifetime sub was attached to that board. If I was in weaknees place I wouldn't want that liability. For boards with socketed RAM maybe not so much, but they'd still be toying with old technology that might be a hairswidth from dying if the wrong person touches it.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

mchips said:


> No, it does not exist for all users... by your own account, you've only mentioned seeing 5 or 6 others that do...


It is a software bug that exists on all S2 DT units. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist on your DT unit. I have seen it on all 3 of the DT units I have owned and other people have reported it too. Just because people don't post the lockup problem on the forum doesn't make it a non issue. Again, I really don't expect it to be fixed though because it seems no one cares unless 90% of the users physically see the bug. Even then, Tivo's focus isn't on having a good user experience these days. Because TiVo is supporting so many different platforms these days, I expect them to use the "it doesn't affect the majority of users" excuse from now on. Its easy for them to say a problem doesn't exist because a bug only exists on one of the platforms.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

rainwater said:


> It is a software bug that exists on all S2 DT units. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist on your DT unit. I have seen it on all 3 of the DT units I have owned and other people have reported it too. Just because people don't post the lockup problem on the forum doesn't make it a non issue. Again, I really don't expect it to be fixed though because it seems no one cares unless 90% of the users physically see the bug. Even then, Tivo's focus isn't on having a good user experience these days. Because TiVo is supporting so many different platforms these days, I expect them to use the "it doesn't affect the majority of users" excuse from now on. Its easy for them to say a problem doesn't exist because a bug only exists on one of the platforms.


 

I can throw just the reverse at you... just because you're experiencing it* on your TiVo's doesn't mean that it's a bug that exists on ALL units...

<*edit: "it" = the lockup issues that rainwater is experiencing, NOT the slowdown issue; since three people have assumed that I was referring to the slowdown issue and attacked me as a result, as they apparently didn't bother to read anything but this single post to actually know what we were talking about, I thought I'd better clarify what he and I are discussing>

People often make that mistake... they think if something is happening to them, it must be happening to everyone else, when it just isn't true...

If nothing else, people on this forum definitely make it known when they're having problems... and therefore, I believe that if it was a more widespread problem affecting ALL units, we'd be hearing much more about it, than from mostly you...

My point is that you say it's affecting everyone... when it's just the opposite, only affecting a handful...

I have tried to reproduce it, with the steps and information that you have provided, but I can't get any of mine to lockup.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

Schmye Bubbula said:


> Because in my correspondence with Weaknees, quoted above, they just seemed to blow me off.
> 
> They didn't even address the problem and the reasons more RAM may be needed. (Those reasons involved the slowdowns associated with the virtual memory swap file hits imposed by KidZone and other bloated TiVo features.) Indeed, they said, "...we've never recommended them." Well, why not, in light of the reasons I quoted above?


It almost seems like Schmye maybe under the impression that Weaknees is operated/owned by Tivo.

Anyways, I would think the solution would be for Tivo to optimize their code so that it runs effectively in the weakest hardware model Tivo approved.


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## dugbug (Dec 29, 2003)

mchips said:


>


Oh would you folks shut up please with your tivo-defensive posturing. The humax DVD units are drastically slower. It may be that those with the slowdown have more season passes or some other setting that pushes the humax over its edge, who knows.

Whatever the cause, the damn units are frustratingly slow with 7.3. 10 threads complaining that folks hit the TIVO button and waiting 10 seconds before the "ding" should cause some kind of a response from the company.

-d


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dugbug said:


> Oh would you folks shut up please with your tivo-defensive posturing. The humax DVD units are drastically slower. It may be that those with the slowdown have more season passes or some other setting that pushes the humax over its edge, who knows.
> 
> Whatever the cause, the damn units are frustratingly slow with 7.3. 10 threads complaining that folks hit the TIVO button and waiting 10 seconds before the "ding" should cause some kind of a response from the company.
> 
> -d


That behavior would be consistent with what I'm seeing on both of my 240 Series 2's. To compensate I hit the TiVo button, wait 10 seconds THEN turn on the TV so nothing will be spoiled. But it's been this way for a long time, not just a 7.3 issue.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

dugbug said:


> Oh would you folks shut up please with your tivo-defensive posturing. The humax DVD units are drastically slower. It may be that those with the slowdown have more season passes or some other setting that pushes the humax over its edge, who knows.
> 
> Whatever the cause, the damn units are frustratingly slow with 7.3. 10 threads complaining that folks hit the TIVO button and waiting 10 seconds before the "ding" should cause some kind of a response from the company.
> 
> -d


 

I stand by everything that I say... if it defends TiVo, then that's how I feel... get used to it...

That said, if you actually read my post, you'd realize that I was not even referring to the slowness issue...

I don't have a Humax, so I can't speculate on your issues...

However, rainwater and I were talking about the DT units locking up... since I have three of those, I will express my opinions on those to my heart's content, regardless of how you may feel about it...

I'm just as tired of seeing people complain about the slowness issues (which I don't experience to the same degree, btw, and agree with those stating it's subjective and relative), as you are about hearing people that don't agree with your assessment of it... so, I guess I wish you'd just shut up as much as you wish we would... 

On my DT, it takes only 2 sec's to bring the guide up after the TiVo has been sitting unused for a while (which could have to do with background processing that goes on when the TiVo is idle)... if I dismiss the guide and bring it back up, it comes back up within a second...

On my 140, it's 3 sec's the first time, and then within a second thereafter...

I have noticed some slowness while navigating the guide, more so with the Grid Style, but not to the degree that others seem to express, which I suspect is part exageration...


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

ehagberg said:


> I have 7.3.1 on a 240 series 2.
> 
> It used to be slow after the machine had been running for a couple weeks - that was back in the 7.2.x days.
> 
> ...


It takes 10 seconds for my program guide to show up after pressing the button!!!!! Equally slow when pressing the Tivo button. Just about any button for that matter is excruciatingly slow. 7.3.1 is killing me!!!!!!!

I am going to take a short video of this and post it to YouTube so mchips believes me!


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

dolfer said:


> It takes 10 seconds for my program guide to show up after pressing the button!!!!! Equally slow when pressing the Tivo button. Just about any button for that matter is excruciatingly slow. 7.3.1 is killing me!!!!!!!
> 
> I am going to take a short video of this and post it to YouTube so mchips believes me!


He'd likely just accuse you of faking it. If he doesn't experience something himself then its not an issue and he dismisses it as "subjective and relative". You can't argue with a rock.

You have plenty enough company (myself included) experiencing these 10 second delays. Subjectively and relatively 7.3.1 sucks!


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

RoyK said:


> He'd likely just accuse you of faking it. If he doesn't experience something himself then its not an issue and he dismisses it as "subjective and relative". You can't argue with a rock.
> 
> You have plenty enough company (myself included) experiencing these 10 second delays. Subjectively and relatively 7.3.1 sucks!


 As I have plenty of company that do not experience these 10 second delays...

I've been actually thinking of doing the same thing, creating a video, to show that it isn't 10 seconds for everyone, as people like you want everyone to believe... but then you'd probably just say that I was faking it (since that seems to be how you think)...

I will say that if he does a video, be sure and dismiss the guide and bring it back up... the TiVo is always a little slower to initially respond after it has been idle, and has been this way long before 7.3...

I find it funny, and telling, how people who experience these problems, or at least state they do, are quick to attack those who express otherwise... which is not surprising, I guess... that people who like to rant and complain will of course turn that rant and hostility toward people who don't agree with them...

I don't think 7.3.1 "sucks" in the slightest... sorry that you feel that way...


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

mchips said:


> As I have plenty of company that do not experience these 10 second delays...
> 
> I've been actually thinking of doing the same thing, creating a video, to show that it isn't 10 seconds for everyone, as people like you want everyone to believe... but then you'd probably just say that I was faking it (since that seems to be how you think)...
> 
> ...


Never said that everyone is experiencing it. You say you don't as do others. Fine. I believe you. But there is not a bit of doubt that the problem does exist for many. I am not a liar nor are the others who are reporting the problem.

I have no idea why some boxes are affected and others aren't and I don't really care. That's for TiVo to figure out.

Bottom line is that a non-trivial number of users are adversely affected by 7.3.1 to the point that we are frustrated and upset. And this is merely the latest in a series of problem plagued "upgrades" foistered on the user base either without adequate testing or in spite of it.


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## tbirdjim (Mar 31, 2005)

I'm choosing to avoid the 'is there really a problem' debate and simply provide my Tivo experience opinion.

We have had two Tivo S2's since they were introduced. I've also bragged about them to friends and strongly encourage them to buy. Even when our cable company (Comcast) introduced their DVR/cable box combo, I touted the wonderful Tivo only features (we use the network features and regularly transfer between boxes on our home network). The only ding against Tivo we have ever experienced was the occasional IR blaster issue which has always been our Tivo's biggest weakness as we will sometimes miss a recording when the box doesn't adequately change channels.

All that has changed. I was willing to put up with the channel changing challenges because the box was otherwise such a pleasure. Now, when I hit the guide button it takes 8-10 seconds - long enough that I press it again wondering if it 'received' my push. Of course, when it eventually opens it closes just as rapidly. Moving through the guide is very slow, hitting the Tivo button also takes 8-10 seconds. Previously all these events took a second or two at most. For us (avoiding the 'is there a problem debate') this change in performance is enough to move to Comcast. This is reinforced by this forum's debate which I imagine is also occuring within Tivo. As they have sent no messages to indicate they are investigating solutions for my problems - I must presume they are either low in their priority list or are not even identified as a problem. Either way, I'm left on my own to find the best solution for me.

So, I'll drop one box and compare the features and performance of the Comcast box. If better, I'll move the other one. If not, I'll be quiet and accept what I have is state of the art.

- One Tivo Performace Opinion


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

mchips said:


> I can throw just the reverse at you... just because you're experiencing it on your TiVo's doesn't mean that it's a bug that exists on ALL units...
> 
> People often make that mistake... they think if something is happening to them, it must be happening to everyone else, when it just isn't true...
> 
> ...


I didn't say that everyone was seeing it, I said the bug exists on the S2 DT units. I never said every single one of the DT users have seen the bug. However, I have personally verified this bug on 5 freaking DT units. So don't tell me its not a DT bug. I'm just not buying it. 1 of the units was using dialup, 3 wireless, and 1 wired. If you don't want to believe that these are major bugs, then you are just like TiVo I suppose.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Schmye Bubbula said:


> When Weaknees said, "...Older units could take RAM upgrades ... As far as we know, there are no RAM upgrades for current units," presumably they meant that older model TiVos had socketed RAM and current models' RAM is soldered to the motherboard. Well, it's not that hard to solder larger RAM in their place, is it? The TiVo motherboard is no different than any desktop PC computer's motherboard, is it?


It's got some things in common with PC motherboards, and some things that aren't. Among the things it doesn't have in common with PCs is that the TiVo isn't designed to be upgradeable -- it's a piece of consumer electronics.

The Series 1 TiVos had unpopulated traces on the motherboard that additional RAM could be soldered to. That was the only memory upgrade that I've ever been aware of on TiVos.

You could potentially replace the RAM on a current TiVo motherboard with larger modules, but who knows if the software or memory controller would support it?


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

rainwater said:


> I didn't say that everyone was seeing it, I said the bug exists on the S2 DT units. I never said every single one of the DT users have seen the bug. However, I have personally verified this bug on 5 freaking DT units. So don't tell me its not a DT bug. I'm just not buying it. 1 of the units was using dialup, 3 wireless, and 1 wired. If you don't want to believe that these are major bugs, then you are just like TiVo I suppose.


 Actually, you said "The lockup issue exists for all DT users."

And all I said was, "No, it does not exist for all users... "

You've seen it happen on 5 units... I believe you, and never said I didn't... it's just not happening to everyone, and I can say that, because it isn't happening to me... if it was happening to everyone, then it would also be happening to me...

Now it seems we're getting into semantics... "exists for all" vs. "affects all".

I actually think it's immaterial for you to state that it exists for all, because you can't possibly know that... all you can speak for are the 5 units that you have seen it happen to...

Stating it exists for all units makes it appear to be a larger problem than it is... I believe it's major for you, and I would find it a major issue for me, if it happened to me, but it isn't... and it does not appear to be happening to most people... therefore, it's not a major issue for most people... I would venture a guess that most people are probably more concerned with the slowness that is affecting them than they are with a lockup issue that isn't affecting them...

I have tried to reproduce it, as well as others (that you and I have both spoken with) who also are unable to reproduce it, using the steps you provided...

I have tried, and would be willing to provide TiVo with more information on this bug, if I could reproduce it... but I can't... it may or may not be a bug lurking in the background just waiting to affect me... or, it could be related more to your individual circumstances, such as your home network environment... I don't know... my point is, neither do you...


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## magnumis (Jan 6, 2005)

mchips said:


> Actually, you said "The lockup issue exists for all DT users."
> 
> And all I said was, "No, it does not exist for all users... "
> 
> ...


Why do you spend so much time defending Tivo and squashing anyone who doesn't think like you? The original point of this thread is valid. My Humax DRT has been very slow with the last upgrade. It is a problem that should be discussed on this forum.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> You could potentially replace the RAM on a current TiVo motherboard with larger modules, but who knows if the software or memory controller would support it?


I looked into that a while back and the 540 (and others) memory controller does not support increased ram. Some guy did it, but he had to modify some firmware to get it to work. Scary. 

Not practical. Not going to happen from Weaknees or anybody else.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

magnumis said:


> Why do you spend so much time defending Tivo and squashing anyone who doesn't think like you? The original point of this thread is valid. My Humax DRT has been very slow with the last upgrade. It is a problem that should be discussed on this forum.


 I'm not defending TiVo... just expressing my opinions, followed by having to defend myself because of baseless attacks like yours... I've already addressed this once, just a few posts up...

I am not squashing anyone... if anything, it's just the reverse... I say I am not experiencing the same thing, or to the same degree, and I get attacked...

And again, people, please read the posts that you're quoting... both people attacking me today saying that I'm just defending TiVo on the slowness issue have both quoted posts that weren't even discussing the slowness...

I don't attack anyone first, and only respond in kind to how I am replied to...

I just try to express my opinion, without putting anyone down, then people read into my posts things that aren't there followed by personal attacks...

I will continue to express my opinions... I don't do it with attacks, and don't tell people to shut up, or that they don't have a right to that opinion... as people do to me... I may throw something back at someone, who threw it at me first, to show how the same thing can be applied right back at them...

Just because I disagree, that is not squashing someone... we can agree to disagree without the personal attacks, but some people seem to have a problem doing that...

I have already stated, more than once, that I have noticed the slowness... just not to the same degree as some others... I don't have a Humax, and so I can't speak for them, nor have I ever tried to... I only speak for my units, and I state what those are...

I am fine with the speed... sorry if that offends you, or you feel squashed by that...

I know misery loves company, but I don't always share in the same misery, or the perception thereof...

And we have a right to express that... that not everyone is experiencing a given issue...


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## Schmye Bubbula (Oct 14, 2004)

A big thanks and a tip o' the hat to Welshdog for a straight answer to a straight question! I'm satisfied that the sluggishness fix will have to come from TiVo programmers' code optimization.



Welshdog said:


> I looked into that a while back and the 540 (and others) memory controller does not support increased ram. Some guy did it, but he had to modify some firmware to get it to work. Scary.
> 
> Not practical. Not going to happen from Weaknees or anybody else.


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## mtshipp (Mar 7, 2006)

Well, once my "contract" is up in February, unless fixed, both Tivo units are gone even though only my Humax is slow. My DT works fine but I am kicking both to the curb b/c of poor service.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> The Series 1 TiVos had unpopulated traces on the motherboard that additional RAM could be soldered to. That was the only memory upgrade that I've ever been aware of on TiVos.


Wel, there is the CacheCard, but that works differently.

TiVo has upgraded the RAM - the S2DT has 64MB and the S3 128MB+more for the encoders.


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## freeze12 (Aug 21, 2006)

mchips said:


> I can throw just the reverse at you... just because you're experiencing it on your TiVo's doesn't mean that it's a bug that exists on ALL units...
> 
> People often make that mistake... they think if something is happening to them, it must be happening to everyone else, when it just isn't true...
> 
> ...


Does this guy work for or is getting paid by Tivo? The reason I ask is.. it seems like almost every post of his is in direct defense of Tivo & basically when someone or many Tivo users have problems, He basically calls it BS!!
Chips...The slowness issue is a VERY big problem & MANY are having issues after the 7.3 upgrade. So it is not a few. Just remember...not every Tivo user is on this board. I also suffer fron this crappy update & called Tivo & was given the token excuse: Your remote is bad, then Your Toshiba RS-TX20 is bad!!! Token Tivo Robot excuse that Cust. Service was told to say. If this problem is not resolved I think I see a class action lawsuit in the future if Tivo plans on no fix to this issue.....Thanks


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

freeze12 said:


> Does this guy work for or is getting paid by Tivo? The reason I ask is.. it seems like almost every post of his is in direct defense of Tivo & basically when someone or many Tivo users have problems, He basically calls it BS!!
> Chips...The slowness issue is a VERY big problem & MANY are having issues after the 7.3 upgrade. So it is not a few. Just remember...not every Tivo user is on this board. I also suffer fron this crappy update & called Tivo & was given the token excuse: Your remote is bad, then Your Toshiba RS-TX20 is bad!!! Token Tivo Robot excuse that Cust. Service was told to say. If this problem is not resolved I think I see a class action lawsuit in the future if Tivo plans on no fix to this issue.....Thanks


 :down: No, I don't work for or get paid by TiVo... Do you work for the competition? Are you a troll? 

Again, for the third time, people, you need to read the posts before you quote them...

That post had nothing to do with the slowness... we were discussing another issue... but you would have known that had you bothered to read what you're trying to discuss, instead of jumping to assumptions...

I've already addressed this twice, so I won't address it again...

But before you make baseless accusations like you've done here, it's probably best to actually read the thread...

Lawsuit? Oh, you're one of those types...


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## mr_bob_dobalena (Sep 18, 2002)

2 540's and a Humax here. And they have all three been drastically slower since the update. I liked it better before, for sure. And it bugs my wife, but she hasn't jumped up and down too much. It's definitely a problem for some of us, and I do hope they will address it sooner rather than later.


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## mr_bob_dobalena (Sep 18, 2002)

And, yes, i do need to update my sig to reflect my current machines


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Well.. -- here's one -- I TOO am having major slowdown issues on my Humax DVD unit. We're not talking about milliseconds here. We're talking about 3 to 5 seconds between a button press and action matching it.

I find the FIRST button press after a long period of leaving it alone.. to be the slowest.. subsequent button presses show better responsiveness to a point. But it is DEFINITELY much slower than it was with an earlier version. (sorry I forget the exact version number)

The 540 unit that I have is slower.. but definitely to a much smaller extent. I can live with the 540 slowness even, but the Humax slowness is major, pronounced and hasn't gone away.

Just adding my voice to the mess..

Knox


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

and again - since the first one got buried

TiVo has indeed acknowledged the problem and we know they have spoken of a late in the year update for S3 - I am sure we can expect a late in the year update for S2 as well. I have visions of TiVo having a rack of in house units being performance tested.

has anyone called in with a case number on this. have you asked if TiVo has reproduced the problem in house. Since it is apparent that the problem does not hit every TiVo then they may have trouble reproducing it to figure out the proper fix, though I did read one post where it seemed a second level support person had a 540 in house that was running slow.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

morac said:


> If it's as slow as people say on a 540, I'd hate to see what it would be like on my 240 which has a slower processor speed than the 540. Thankfully I haven't gotten the upgrade yet (still at 7.2.2b).


morac, EVERYTHING's quicker on my 240 (transfers and UI/deletion) than it is on my 565 or 595 (Toshiba RS-TX20, Humax DRT800 based on the same CPU as the 540). EVERYTHING.

7.3.1, of course, on all compared units.

Oh, and since SP count and kidZonee tc were mentioned ... the S2 240 has the most SPs and none of my units run kidZone. DRT800 is 300GB, S2 240 is 250GB and Toshiba is stock 120GB


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

mtshipp said:


> Well, once my "contract" is up in February, unless fixed, both Tivo units are gone even though only my Humax is slow. My DT works fine but I am kicking both to the curb b/c of poor service.


Send 'em to me instead, I'll even pay you shipping


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## Cori (Jan 27, 2005)

I'm experiencing the slowdown issue as well on my S2- 240 unit. I was considering an upgrade to a DT but until, and unless Tivo addresses this issue, I won't be upgrading. As much as I love the functionality of my Tivo box, the slowness just makes it not worth it to me. 

I just can't see myself giving Tivo anymore of my money until they own up to this problem and do something about it. It seems to me these boxes weren't initially designed for all these features, yet we're forced to accept whatever they throw onto our hardware, reducing its performance as they update these boxes. I'm not sure I'd call this last update and upgrade under the circumstances.  

Tivo...if you care at all about your customers, acknowledge there is a problem, and give us a time frame for when we can't expect these issues to be resolved please.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have visions of TiVo having a rack of in house units being performance tested.


heh..if they had this, I don't think people would be experiencing the issues to begin with.



Cori said:


> Tivo...if you care at all about your customers, acknowledge there is a problem, and give us a time frame for when we can't expect these issues to be resolved please.


Well...they did acknowledge it....but probably doesn't make you feel any better without the resolution or timeframe.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4316712&&#post4316712


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## magnumis (Jan 6, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and again - since the first one got buried
> 
> TiVo has indeed acknowledged the problem and we know they have spoken of a late in the year update for S3 - I am sure we can expect a late in the year update for S2 as well.


Has Tivo responded on this forum? Do they want each of us to call and log an issue with customer support or do they already have enough examples?

Thanks!


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

freeze12 said:


> If this problem is not resolved I think I see a class action lawsuit in the future if Tivo plans on no fix to this issue.....Thanks


A class action suit becuase your DVR works too slow is the dumbest thing I've heard... 

Not to mention (again and again and again) that Tivo is actually working on the problem.


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

Just chiming in with my report. My S2-240-unit is dog slow. terrible banner time. terrible guide pullup time. terrible UI response (2+ second lag) on all menus. It bites. Good thing I only use this one for MRV and extreme backup.

:down: on the QC, Tivo


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> has anyone called in with a case number on this.


Tivo is getting people who experience the freezes/reboots due to the adapter bug to pay to replace their "defective" units. I suspect they are doing the same for slowness reports. The CSR at TiVo always tell you the unit is defective and you have to escalate an issue a million times before they will admit to a software issue.


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## VanGoghLikesTivo (Jan 18, 2005)

Stu_Bee said:


> Well...they did acknowledge it....but probably doesn't make you feel any better without the resolution or timeframe.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4316712&&#post4316712


Thanks for the link. So it appears the last word from TiVo on this problem is the August 28, 2006 post where TiVoPony says "We're investigating this, and will look to make improvements. In the meantime, if you're having a particularly difficult experience, we can only apologize for the inconvenience and let you know that we appreciate your patience."

I have been patient this past month and would appreciate an update from TiVo on what, if anything, is being done to resolve these problems. The software update created slowness issues on my 240 that have not been fixed up through this day.


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## Cori (Jan 27, 2005)

Stu_Bee said:


> Well...they did acknowledge it....but probably doesn't make you feel any better without the resolution or timeframe.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4316712&&#post4316712


Thanks for the link Stu


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## thehepcat (Jan 9, 2002)

I'm coming in to the game pretty late on this one, but I am happy that this is a known issue and not just my unit. 

I haven't noticed much of a change on my Humax, but my Toshiba is pretty bad. I didn't look into it earlier for fear the answer was a dying HD. 

Unlike the trolls on this thread (and it's mulitude of copycats), I am confident that TiVo will fix this issue. Admittedly it has taken too long IMO, but it is not bad enough to be considering jumping ship.


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## pukalo (Oct 9, 2006)

Seems like pretty much everyone on this thread have a slow unit after the update. But does anyones work fine after the update? Since I just ordered mine and will begin using it in 2 weeks , I would like to know if I have a chance of having a fast one?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Generally, the folks who don't have much interest in the "slowdown news" won't visit this thread. FWIW, I have two Series 2 machines; both have the update; and only one is slow. The other one is as fast as ever.


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## painkiller (Jun 23, 2005)

I have two 540's that had been upgraded to 7.3.1 awhile back.

They both have the problem of this "slow response" for practically every movement through the menus/channel changing.

Personally, I'd much rather that TIVO let us switch between allowing/preventing such updates. (I'd rather hear from a site such as this about the success/failure/so-so effects of an update before deciding that I want my machines (that I own & paid for - not leased) to take on an upgrade.

Just like my PCs, Windows Update is turned off - not left on automatic.
I determine if and when to install updates. Not Microsoft.
So why should this be any different?


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## garygid (Oct 9, 2006)

I will re-post (with changes) here since this thread is dealing with system 7.3.1 slowness:

Since 7.3.1 was put on my TCD240xxxx Standalone Series 2 Tivo a while back (by Tivo automatic connection update), I have experienced many system freezes. Also, some bad digital breakup in the playing of programs being recorded, and in some plaback of programs previously recorded. 
Recently, the freezes have gotten to be many a day. 
Sometimes things going very quickly, other times very slowly.
Note: My system has two 120 GB hard drives (working OK for almost 3 years now).

I deleted many "keep until I delete" files, and that did not help.
I permanently deleted all of the "Recently Deleted" files, and no help.
I unplugged the USB to Ethernet (wired) adapter ... and no more crashes today.
I have used both wired and wireless USB adapters successfully.

I was about ready to order replacement hard drives, then found InstantCake, bought that (downloaded it), burnt a Boot CD, and bought two 200 GB drives to do a complete upgrade (would install a version 7.2.0 tivo system).

I see others are experiencing problems with version 7.3.1 also, and the USB connection seems to be handled strangely by this Tivo system.
Try disconnecting the USB and see if it works just fine.
Just reconnect to do an occasional update.

Is Tivo working on this problem with 7.3.1?
Should I ask Tivo if they can revert my unit to 7.2.x until the problem is fixed?

Thanks, Gary


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

garygid said:


> I will re-post (with changes) here since this thread is dealing with system 7.3.1 slowness:
> 
> Since 7.3.1 was put on my TCD240xxxx Standalone Series 2 Tivo a while back (by Tivo automatic connection update), I have experienced many system freezes. Also, some bad digital breakup in the playing of programs being recorded, and in some plaback of programs previously recorded.
> Recently, the freezes have gotten to be many a day.


 Your issue sounds more like this (click the following link):

The "Help! My Tivo is Stuttering /Freezing /Crashing /Clicking" Thread​Perhaps that can help you out...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stu_Bee said:


> heh..if they had this, I don't think people would be experiencing the issues to begin with.
> 
> Well...they did acknowledge it....but probably doesn't make you feel any better without the resolution or timeframe.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4316712&&#post4316712


well I meant that TiVo is most likely doing more performance testing now. This slowness after an update is a pretty odd bug to find and actually may have many facets to it that will slowly be found and overcome.

I have many different model TiVo's - a 240 and an SD H400, a 540 and an RS TX20 and then also series 2 DT unit. Through all the updates, which includes the 7.2.x versions, I have not experienced the slowdown issues. My RS TX20 got somewhat slower (in the 3 seconds to bring up a menu range) but after having the 7.3.1 update a few days it went back to its normal speed. That is relatively slower than other units but it was always usable. I have the stock drive in all units but the DT and an average number of season passes and shows in now playing. I used wired USB200M and netgear FA120 but switched to TiVo wireless adapters upstairs on the 240 and SD H400. The DT is straight wired on the Ethernet port. Others report other models that do not have the slowdown.

So this means that the slowdown issue is not model dependent, does not hit every TiVo DVR and there is no one common factor unless it is buried in the logs of the TiVo DVR itself. Also this has occurred over the 7.2.x series and now the 7.3.x series but not before that. TiVo is still collecting data and more than likely still trying to make the problem completely reproducible in their development labs. This is not "spend a week on analyzing and then issuing a fix" kind of stuff.

So calling in to TiVo and logging the problem against a TSN number can allow them to pull the logs from TiVo DVRs with the problem and let them gather some data. At the same time what can TiVo say? they have indeed acknowledged the problem, they are of course working on it as the subscription is the business they are in and anything that causes customer churn even in the single percentage range is of large import to TiVo inc. That same fact though means they have to be careful in what they publicly say. Bad press about the TiVo DVR via official statements from TiVo is not exactly a sound business policy.

TiVo has gotten onto a cycle of updates and have acknowledged an update for the S3 is coming by the end of the year. I am confident that an update to the Series 2 will be included and like 7.2.2 got that upgrade back on the speed track I am confident that the update to 7.3.1 will do the same.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So this means that the slowdown issue is not model dependent


I thought just about everyone with a Humax was experiencing the issue. Some techies attributed it to the lower memory specs of these models, not being able to perform up to par, due to the demands of the new Tivo version.

If there are two people with the exact same Tivo Model...one experiencing the slowdown, the other not....it would be great to get these two people communicating to a) do a benchmark to compare, and b)find out the possible differences that may be factors.



ZeoTiVo said:


> This is not "spend a week on analyzing and then issuing a fix" kind of stuff.


Heh...it's only been a week? seems like a few months.


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## compuboy04 (Oct 10, 2006)

I also am having the same problem as countless others. It's very upsetting because I used to recommend TiVo to all my family and friends... I wont again until this is worked thru at least.

In addition to the slow menu's and pretty much unuseable guide and channel changing, has anyone else had problems with the thumb ratings? Sometimes it wont let me gives thumbs up or thumbs down to a specific program until I change the channel and then change back and try again. Also sometimes it plays the thumbs down sound when I press thumbs up, but still gives the program thumbs up?!
I called tivo 3 times about the slowdown and thumbs issue. The third time after transfering me to three different people they finally admitted to a "bug" in the 7.3 update that effects a "very small number" of customers. Even the head supervisor refused to give me any kind of a credit even when I threatened to terminate my service. He said the TiVo service is sold "as is" reguardless of problems. 
Extremely poor customer service and I intend to write a letter to corperate like another post suggested.

Wake up TiVo! Your losing customers and upsetting others over your stupid "update. :down:


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stu_Bee said:


> I thought just about everyone with a Humax was experiencing the issue. Some techies attributed it to the lower memory specs of these models, not being able to perform up to par, due to the demands of the new Tivo version..


 correct - but it mainly means you really see a slowdown on these models if affected. I have seen reports of people with HUMAX agreeing they are slower than other models but not seeing it any slower after the update.

the gremlin seems deeper and it is the symptoms that are aggravated by low end hardware specs.

edit to add - long ago I allowd TiVo to look at my logs for some kind of something. forghet what now - but basically said they could look at my logs anytime they wanted to. Hopefully they are looking at my logs for any comaprisons they find helpful.


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## ObiWanJenkins (Dec 31, 2004)

Thank you, ZeoTivo. Your post is one of the most competent I have read in the numerous slowness threads. I've noticed that my new box became slower with the update, but not to the extent that many people are talking about. I noticed a less than a second delay in some menus, while others are faster.

I would much rather see Tivo take its time and produce a fix that isn't going to cause units like mine to suffer while fixing the problems others are reporting. I find that extremely responsible on Tivo's part. If it's true that Tivo is having difficulty reproducing the problem conclusively in-house, who wouldn't agree that research is the most important part of fixing the problem?


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

> the gremlin seems deeper and it is the symptoms that are aggravated by low end hardware specs.


This is probably correct and it is Tivo's fault. Tivo should have frozen software updates for certain Series2 models. Or else they shouldn't create software with requirements that exceed the capabilities of their hardware! Unlike a PC, we can't easily go in and add more memory or upgrade the CPU.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dolfer said:


> This is probably correct and it is Tivo's fault. Tivo should have frozen software updates for certain Series2 models. Or else they shouldn't create software with requirements that exceed the capabilities of their hardware! Unlike a PC, we can't easily go in and add more memory or upgrade the CPU.


except that unlike PC software - I expect that TiVo will find the gremlin and get a patch out that will bring speed back to the norm for each hardware model without requiring more hardware.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> except that unlike PC software - I expect that TiVo will find the gremlin and get a patch out that will bring speed back to the norm for each hardware model without requiring more hardware.


You just have to wonder if they are spending resources to fix the many bugs that are in 7.3.1.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

compuboy04 said:


> I also am having the same problem as countless others. It's very upsetting because I used to recommend TiVo to all my family and friends... I wont again until this is worked thru at least.
> 
> In addition to the slow menu's and pretty much unuseable guide and channel changing, has anyone else had problems with the thumb ratings? Sometimes it wont let me gives thumbs up or thumbs down to a specific program until I change the channel and then change back and try again. Also sometimes it plays the thumbs down sound when I press thumbs up, but still gives the program thumbs up?!


Both of my S2's behave exactly like yours :down:


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## Keith Plucker (Oct 14, 2002)

> except that unlike PC software - I expect that TiVo will find the gremlin and get a patch out that will bring speed back to the norm for each hardware model without requiring more hardware.


Seems unlikely. You can't keep adding features to the device via software and not expect it to slow down. What they need to do is modularize the software so that you can separate the "core" DVR component and elect to add additional features if you so desire. We also should have the ability to disable automatic updates.

I don't believe these things will ever happen which is why I just installed a 8300 HD DVR to replace my S2. There is no doubt the interface is vastly inferior to Tivo's UI, however, video quality is better, audio quality is better, it is cheaper and although the UI is primitive compared to Tivo it is at least quick.

-Keith


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## smackerama (Mar 23, 2006)

Humax here... SLOW! The burner rarely works also, I'll trade a set of the coasters it makes for 1999 Rewards Points.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Keith Plucker said:


> Seems unlikely. You can't keep adding features to the device via software and not expect it to slow down. What they need to do is modularize the software so that you can separate the "core" DVR component and elect to add additional features if you so desire. We also should have the ability to disable automatic updates.
> 
> I don't believe these things will ever happen which is why I just installed a 8300 HD DVR to replace my S2. There is no doubt the interface is vastly inferior to Tivo's UI, however, video quality is better, audio quality is better, it is cheaper and although the UI is primitive compared to Tivo it is at least quick.
> 
> -Keith


well that is one way to fix the speed issue  and if it works for your personal needs then it works.

as to modularizing features - that leads to its own overhead that can limit the amount of features as well. I have no idea what patterns TiVo uses in its software design so no idea how modularized it is now.
Since I have turned KidZone on and off on a RS TX20 (Toshiba TiVo with DVD) and saw absolutely no change in the very acceptable performance and have it running on an SD H400 with very snappy performance I do not think it is the presence of Kid Zone alone that does this. How they coded it in could be though.

I don't think this is feature bloat just because of more features. It would affect all TiVo DVRs if that was the case. I think it is resource issues and bugs/inefficient design around resource use such as memory and CPU time and hard drive use. The Apache engine acting as a low end app server for HME could figure in there as well.

edit -and it seems to take some specific something on the TiVo to set this resource issue off. Thus you have people who have only one TiVo DVR out of two effected


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## musictoo (Oct 8, 2003)

You know the different viewpoints here are pretty interesting. I am in the unique position that I have two 240's, one is wicked slow, the other just a little slower than before the update. Which now makes that one wicked fast. <g> Here's hoping the boys will get their hands wrapped around the problem sometime soon...


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## HLSgeek (Oct 12, 2006)

freeze12 said:


> If this problem is not resolved I think I see a class action lawsuit in the future if Tivo plans on no fix to this issue.....Thanks


I'm going to be the first to say you may have something here . . .

We have a contract with TiVo. Those of us who committed to Lifetime Service or committed to monthly service for a set period of time were given the impression that as long as our boxes remained functinal and the company remained solvent, we would be provided with software updates and program information. Any consumer would have reasonably believed that the updates would not seriously impair the performance of the units.

Does anyone have the terms of the contract handy? I'm certain that TiVo put in an escape clause exempting themselves of any liability for situations such as this, but since we had no say in the terms of these contracts, such clauses will not be upheld if unfair to the consumer, in fine print, etc. . . There is almost certainly a clause committing to arbitration as well, but that also may not be enforcable as to class actions.

I certainly would not be jumping on the lawsuit bandwagon if TiVo just screwed up and released a buggy or slow version. However, it has been 2+ months and they have continued to dismiss or ignore the complaints of those of us experiencing these problems. (I have called, and received similar responses) The attorney fees on both sides of a suit may be the only thing that would motivate them to pay attention to us again. (We would be unlikely to gain anything but a token settlement for each user, similar to the one-month upgrade for Netflix plaintiffs.)

Otherwise, they will continue to dedicate all their energies to Series 3 and the new prospective mommy market, at our expense.

I've been thinking about this ever since I realized that polite phone calls were getting me nowhere. Anyone know a class action lawyer?


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## Tivo4Meevo (Jul 8, 2006)

I found this on youtube. It is very similar to the way my Tivo (model TCD540080) performs:

Slow Humax Tivo


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

Tivo4Meevo said:


> I found this on youtube. It is very similar to the way my Tivo (model TCD540080) performs:
> 
> Slow Humax Tivo


That's about the way MY Sony SVR-3000 works after the "update".


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I have one of the affected boxes. It is not objectively non-functional. Therefore, there is no judicial relief forthcoming. I think it is time folks accepted that and moved on.



> However, it has been 2+ months and they have continued to dismiss or ignore the complaints of those of us experiencing these problems.


TiVo's engineering folks are becoming notorious for providing a uniquely negative experience for TiVo's customers. Why is it that TiVo provides such good customer service and such bad technical support?


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## musictoo (Oct 8, 2003)

After reading here some more I figured I'd try a reboot of my slow TiVo again. After a very long start up time (longer than usual anyway) it actually is better. Much better. And the problem that I posted about podcasts not working fixed itself. FYI...


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

from the Washington Post
http://wwww.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/11/AR2006101101129.html


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

That link doesn't work for me.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Even after you get rid of the extra "w", the article seems to be gone.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Even after you get rid of the extra "w", the article seems to be gone.


Just worked for me:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/11/AR2006101101129.html


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

> We are unable to locate the page you requested.
> The page may have moved or may no longer be available


Still no luck. What's the article about?

Edit: Blelay my last. Somehow I was ending up with a bunch of "****" at the end, once I removed them, I got the article. Shouldn't have wasted my time. Not sure why its news worthy that a Washington Post reporter doesn't think that she'll use all the new features.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> Still no luck. What's the article about?
> 
> Edit: Belay my last. Somehow I was ending up with a bunch of "****" at the end, once I removed them, I got the article. Shouldn't have wasted my time. Not sure why its news worthy that a Washington Post reporter doesn't think that she'll use all the new features.


 Not to mention that she doesn't even own a TiVo herself, having had to borrow one from a "friend" to test out the new features, of which most are not so new anymore... she got several facts wrong, and clearly does not understand KidZone... she used "Wife Swap" as an example, that was a show recommended by one of the guides... she apparently doesn't realize that's the key of KidZone, that individual families can choose whether they want their kids to see "Wife Swap" or not... any other parental controls will include it if it's within the ratings limits they set... KidZone takes it all one step further allowing families to include/exclude by specific programs, not just ratings... clearly an unobjective article by someone who didn't completely research what she was attempting to review... she thinks that just because she doesn't think "Wife Swap" is appropriate to her that it shouldn't be considered appropriate for anyone... that's the thing about KidZone, it allows the individual family to decide for themselves what is and isn't appropriate...


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Yup, typical Washington Post review.

I give up on their tech and auto review (Mr fuddy duddy *****-whipped Brown) departments, they all live in the Stone Age.

Of course, this specific article was on the AP wire and carried by multiple online news reporting sources, so it's possible a Post employee didn't really write it ... irrespective, badly written and awfully (UN)researched.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

from Washington Post said:


> Some TiVo customers have complained that all the add-ons have slowed down their TiVos. The company has acknowledged the problem and said it's trying to address it.


 well that certainly does not qualify for the press coverage showing this to be a widespread problem as some here claim. especially from an article that claims this as the pricing structure


article said:


> The services are available through Series2 TiVos, which start at $69.99 after a $150 mail-in rebate and a $19.95 monthly subscription fee,


 un-researched indeed but even this slap dash article has figured out that TiVo is aware that some subscribers have less than they bargained for and that TiVo inc is working to fix that.


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## dolfer (Nov 3, 2000)

Tivo4Meevo said:


> I found this on youtube. It is very similar to the way my Tivo (model TCD540080) performs:
> 
> Slow Humax Tivo


it hurts to watch because it's as slow as mine!!! ;( thanks for the link Meevo!

doesn't Tivo realize all of the "evangelizing" ceases when these poor updates go out and remain unresolved for so long?

also, the longer this slowness continues, the less likely I see myself plunking down $800 for a Series3! as lazy as I am, I am seriously considering building a PC-based DVR when I move over to HD.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

My three S2's are definately not as slow as that humax. Possibly the first time a command is sent and everytime you left arrow out of a show, but that's it.


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## Waldo50676 (Mar 19, 2005)

That Humax might even be a bit faster than my series2, after hitting the guide button it takes so long to popup that I sometimes can't remember if I hit the button or not. All of these extra useless items are lost on me, I just want my tivo to operate at a decent level.


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

Waldo50676 said:


> That Humax might even be a bit faster than my series2, after hitting the guide button it takes so long to popup that I sometimes can't remember if I hit the button or not. All of these extra useless items are lost on me, I just want my tivo to operate at a decent level.


Please TiVo, it's been over THREE months since my Sony SVR3000 Series 2 unit has turned into a slug!


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

TiVo Steve said:


> Please TiVo, it's been over THREE months since my Sony SVR3000 Series 2 unit has turned into a slug!


The problem is they picked a bad time to have buggy software. It seems they are trying to merge the S3 and S2 codebase. The problem with that is once they merge it, then they have a whole new set of issues to fix and debugging old issues (like in 7.3.1) will be more difficult.


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## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

*A message from Tivo:*

_crickets.... _ "Have you seen KidZone?"

*Internally at Tivo:*

"Just stay quiet and the complaining will go away." 
"We can't admit there is a problem or we may lose customers. What do you mean that is happening anyway?" 
"It's been 2-3 months, maybe it will just fix itself..."

*What hasn't been said by anyone with Tivo:*

"We understand that there has been an issue with the 7.3.1 software upgrade and we are working towards a solution. We would like to thank the members of TivoCommunity.com for bringing this to our attention and for the wealth of information posted in a record number of threads in regards to the issues affecting such a large portion of our customer base."

"We also realize that our customer service leaves a lot to be desired and we are making great strides in becoming a company that listens to and delivers on its customers needs."


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

sdzc said:


> *What hasn't been said by anyone with Tivo:*
> 
> "We understand that there has been an issue with the 7.3.1 software upgrade and we are working towards a solution. We would like to thank the members of TivoCommunity.com for bringing this to our attention and for the wealth of information posted in a record number of threads in regards to the issues affecting such a large portion of our customer base."
> 
> "We also realize that our customer service leaves a lot to be desired and we are making great strides in becoming a company that listens to and delivers on its customers needs."


And it's pretty clear that nothing will be said.

Why Tivo has been so completely silent on the 7.3.x and the Series 3 issues is mindboggling. Using the ostrich "head in the sand approach" to problem management is rarely effective. Many here are Tivo's biggest fans and supporters. Not to publically acknowledge critical problems you are working on does nothing to help and can't do anything but hurt. Letting the situation be shaped by the opinions of those of us that can't know what's going on is a terrible strategy.

Come on Tivo - say something official. We know you didn't release buggy code on purpose. But step up and acknowledge there are issues and what the priorities are. Continuing to keep us all in the dark is not only inneffective and dangerous, but insulting.

Has no one at Tivo ever worked on a political campaign? You need to control the message, not let the message control you.

Sadly, right now the message is that Tivo is stretched too thin (KidZone, Series 3. Comcast/Cox platform), new software additions are being allowed to undermine the stability of the underlying UI that has long been one of Tivo's biggest strengths compared to the clones and that it's not important to be straight with your biggest (and probably most effective) marketing force.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

My TiVo is one of the ones that hasn't been affected by the slow down, but the past few days it has been very sluggish. I can count to 5 or more seconds between when I press the button till when I here the "bing" and then a few more seconds until the main menu pops up. It does seem to cache though because the next time I do this it only takes a second. If I don't do it for a while it takes 5 to 10 seconds again.

Pretty much all GUI stuff which needs to access info is sluggish. For example pressing the info button when watching a recording takes about 5 seconds to pop up the info, but pressing the play button instantly brings up the playback bar.

The only difference I see is that the VCM connection seems to be connecting every 70 minutes when normally it does so every 12 hours. I have noticed a correlation between the time between connections and interface speed in the past (the shorter the time between connections, the slower the interface seems to be).


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## Bill McNeal (May 31, 2002)

A TiVo rep has said a couple of months ago they are aware of the problem, and they're working on it:

TiVoPony: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4316712&&

I assume their silence since means they are still working on it, with no ETA of a fix.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> We know you didn't release buggy code on purpose.


It's pretty clear they did release 7.3. and 7.3.1 knowing full well all of the UI bugs because they felt they needed to push KidZone. I can't imagine beta testers not reporting the numerous bugs already reported in the 7.3.1 bugs thread.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Bill McNeal said:


> A TiVo rep has said a couple of months ago they are aware of the problem, and they're working on it:
> 
> TiVoPony: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4316712&&
> 
> I assume their silence since means they are still working on it, with no ETA of a fix.


They acknowledged a small number of users are seeing slugishness. Whether the many other bugs are being fixed is another issue.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Furthermore, not issuing an update after this much time indicates either that they have not yet determined what's wrong (extremely troubling) or have determined that they won't do what is necessary to fix it (even more troubling).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

rainwater said:


> They acknowledged a small number of users are seeing slugishness. Whether the many other bugs are being fixed is another issue.


come one guys- we all know TiVo responded in the 7.3 bug threads, they know of all the bugs and 7.3.1 did indeed fix some of the glaring ones.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sdzc said:


> "We understand that there has been an issue with the 7.3.1 software upgrade and we are working towards a solution. We would like to thank the members of TivoCommunity.com for bringing this to our attention and for the wealth of information posted in a record number of threads in regards to the issues affecting such a large portion of our customer base."


heh, looks like you were not around for the popup ad threads or the macrovision threads - that was a record number. there are more threads in the S3 forum on cable cards.

You can all say "a large percentage", or say "a record number" but the filings by TiVo on subscription numbers will tell the real number.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> come one guys- we all know TiVo responded in the 7.3 bug threads, they know of all the bugs and 7.3.1 did indeed fix some of the glaring ones.


Have you seen the 7.3.1 bug thread. There are more than a few bugs reported. And AFAIK TiVo has made no response to any of them. Maybe you can shed some light on a comment they made that I missed. Also, speaking of glaring bugs, 7.3.1 has major issues with some wireless adapters that causes the whole system to be unstable. The fact that they haven't got a solution to that is not a good sign for these other bugs being fixed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

rainwater said:


> The fact that they haven't got a solution to that is not a good sign for these other bugs being fixed.


how do you know this fact ? Are you in the daily meetings at TiVo about such things? You really need to chack how you state things.
and No I am not going to go dig through the threads and pull out the posts from TiVo employees. I know they were in those threads and I know they read through the threads here all the time and take some comments back to the meetings as needed. I doubt they have found anything new in these threads for a while though.
So you can all keep declaring that TiVo inc does not know, does not care but I will keep posting that that is simply not the fact at all.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> how do you know this fact ?


Because generally bugs that cause major loss in TiVo functionality are given priority and fixes are released soon. Its been about 4-5 months since the 7.3 release and this hasn't been fixed? This shows they either don't know how to fix it, or aren't commiting the resources to fix these bugs.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Also, speaking of glaring bugs, 7.3.1 has major issues with some wireless adapters that causes the whole system to be unstable.


I'm unfamiliar with this issue, but are these wireless adapters among the ones on TiVo's approved adapters list?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

gonzotek said:


> I'm unfamiliar with this issue, but are these wireless adapters among the ones on TiVo's approved adapters list?


It seems they have removed some of the adapters to coincide with the 7.3 release. Some reports suggest it even occurs with the TiVo branded adapter but for the most part it seems to be 3rd party adapters. The only solution is to remove the adapter to keep the TiVo from rebooting.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

rainwater said:


> Because generally bugs that cause major loss in TiVo functionality are given priority and fixes are released soon. Its been about 4-5 months since the 7.3 release and this hasn't been fixed? *This shows they either don't know how to fix it, or aren't commiting the resources to fix these bugs.*


Or that the update is coming like Tivo says it is, and they don't see the need to give you status reports on when the update is coming and what it will fix.

Regardless, you are making all kinds of invalid assumptions. :down:


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Or that the update is coming like Tivo says it is, and they don't see the need to give you status reports on when the update is coming and what it will fix.
> 
> Regardless, you are making all kinds of invalid assumptions. :down:


I'm sure a release is coming to fix the sluggishness. However, the fact that there is a major issue out there affecting the ability of the TiVo to be operational that hasn't been addressed is very unusual even for TiVo. Leaving that issue out there for 3 or 4 months is not a good practice if you ask me. And TiVo generally fixes these issues very quickly. However, things have obviously changed in the way they view quality.


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## Phil W (Oct 24, 2006)

Yep, as in they aren't worried about it at all. We're coming up on 3 months now with no guarantee of a fix before the end of the year (or after it for that matter.) Tivo used to be an example of how to get good word of mouth, not bad.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> Or that the update is coming like Tivo says it is


Says who? Last I heard, they understand the problem and are looking into it. I haven't heard one Word indicating that they've discovered the cause of the problem, that they know how to fix it, and that they plan to fix it.



> Regardless, you are making all kinds of invalid assumptions. :down:


Given that lack of real information, there are only two choices: (1) Guess about what's actually going on at TiVo, or (2) Accept that you now have a poorly-performing TiVo, indefinitely.


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## Bimwad (Jul 4, 2005)

If TiVo cares, they have a funny way of (not) showing it.

TiVo's one and only response asked for patience. That patience is running out and nearly exhausted. Just what is the status of the investigation? Why have there been no updates? TiVo has never been good at keeping promises, but at least throw us a bone.

Most people don't have blind faith or a sworn allegiance to TiVo like some here do. They only want to be treated fairly and have a broken product fixed.

No matter how big or small the group is, no company with a conscience, any sort of pride, or competence, would let it drag on for as long as it has.

As a struggling business, TiVo can ill afford to alienate any of its customers. With little communication and no assurance that a solution is at hand, or even in the distance, that is exactly what TiVo is doing.


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## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

The true test is the fact that they will not even post a message about it in a thread such as this...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Bimwad said:


> No matter how big or small the group is, no company with a conscience, any sort of pride, or competence, would let it drag on for as long as it has.


I disagree. It all depends on what they have to say. If all they can say is, "We have no idea what's causing this. We don't know how we could possibly fix it (without ripping out features that we must leave in now)." -- then they're perhaps better-off saying nothing.



> As a struggling business, TiVo can ill afford to alienate any of its customers.


As a struggling business, they perhaps don't have the resources to address the problem in a timely manner -- something else they probably don't want to admit publicly.

And as a publicly-traded company in the public eye, they have even more incentive to say nothing, if they have nothing good to say.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

The level of cr*p in this thread is stunning!! What do you expect TiVo to do? Should they put their entire development project plan on the web? Should they put their trouble report database on the web? Should they publish the work queue for each support engineer?

I've been developing and managing very large real-time software projects for nearly 30 years. The fact is that ALL software has bugs. No matter how much you test, you cannot replicate every combination of real-world events. 

There is absolutely no benefit to either TiVo or its customers to discuss the progress of each little bug on a daily basis. Either you believe they are working on the bugs or you don't. Either way, all the p!ssing and moaning in the world isn't going the change a thing. Engineers tend to have great pride in their work and I fully expect that TiVo's engineers are no different. I would believe that the engineers hold themselves to an even higher standard than do TiVo's customers. I expect that no one wants the bugs squashed more than the engineering staff. Why not just let them work so you can enjoy the benefits later?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JohnBrowning said:


> The level of cr*p in this thread is stunning!! What do you expect TiVo to do? Should they put their entire development project plan on the web? Should they put their trouble report database on the web? Should they publish the work queue for each support engineer?


come on this is TiVo we are talking about. They can do much better than that. I fully expect a TiVoCast of each meeting and supporting TiVoCasts of every relevant person's computer screen on my TiVo each morning. Why should I have to do more than press a few buttons on the remote to get fully updated on the bugs in my software


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> come on this is TiVo we are talking about. They can do much better than that. I fully expect a TiVoCast of each meeting and supporting TiVoCasts of every relevant person's computer screen on my TiVo each morning. Why should I have to do more than press a few buttons on the remote to get fully updated on the bugs in my software


Thats a bit of an over reach. I don't think anyone is asking for all kinds of detail. But TiVo hasn't even responded a single time saying they are addressing any of the bugs in 7.3.1. While some people are quick to jump on anyone making assumptions, the same people tell us its ridiculous to think all of these bugs aren't being addressed as well. Seems like to pot calling the kettle black to me.

It also doesn't address why TiVo hasn't responded to the wireless adapter issue causing freezing/rebooting. Of course TiVo has never addressed the LiveTV causing a lockup either and that bug is 6 months old. Personally, the adapter issue should of been addressed and fixed as soon as possible. Ignoring users on this issue is not good business.


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## chipwood (Apr 18, 2002)

JohnBrowning said:


> There is absolutely no benefit to either TiVo or its customers to discuss the progress of each little bug on a daily basis.


As someone who works in software service, I could not disagree more with this statement. When I work on a customer's problem, not only is the existence of the problem publicly availably to all customers, but target dates for a fix and a bypass are provided as well.

Benefit to customer: they know the status of their problem, and the public nature increases the likelyhood of a timely fix.
Benefit to TiVo: Customer satisfaction. I would certainly feel better about paying 12.95 a month if I knew they cared about customer service. Their response (or lack thereof) to this does not give me the impression that they do care and will probably influence my decision as to whether I purchase a Series 3 or not.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Thats a bit of an over reach. I don't think anyone is asking for all kinds of detail. But TiVo hasn't even responded a single time saying they are addressing any of the bugs in 7.3.1.


you know that is just a wrong statement and TiVo has indeed repsonded early on in the bug threads. You want to keep saying things that are just plain wrong and shoot your credibility down - that is your concern but you should take the time to edit such out of your posts.

Could TiVo be more open in what they are doing to address the probelms. Of course - but for their own reasons (look at recent postings for some good reasons) they have chosen to not keep repeating themselves in this forum.


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## zoma4 (Jul 20, 2004)

chipwood said:


> As someone who works in software service, I could not disagree more with this statement. When I work on a customer's problem, not only is the existence of the problem publicly availably to all customers, but target dates for a fix and a bypass are provided as well.
> 
> Benefit to customer: they know the status of their problem, and the public nature increases the likelyhood of a timely fix.
> Benefit to TiVo: Customer satisfaction. I would certainly feel better about paying 12.95 a month if I knew they cared about customer service. Their response (or lack thereof) to this does not give me the impression that they do care and will probably influence my decision as to whether I purchase a Series 3 or not.


Your logic, IMO, is dead on. Of course, in this community, you will get in trouble for saying such things. It's amazing how people take criticism over how TiVo has handled something so personally.

As a software developer, I keep my supervisors informed on the progress of any bug or issue I'm correcting. While this doesn't make it to the customer's ears all the time, the product managers strategically choose when to release information to the customers. Telling them each detail is not something that should be done, but keeping them hanging is not an option. If there is a critical issue, not just at my company, but at many (most?) companies, the steps to fixing it begin with 1) identifying the issue, and 2) setting a timetable for its completion. Relaying a reasonable time for completion to the customer is a crucial piece to this, in order to control expectations. I think it is reasonable to believe that TiVo hasn't done this, which means that either:
1) They have not created a timetable
2) They have not identified the problem (therefore, they can't estimate how long to fix)
3) They have these estimates, and chosen not to share them.
or
4) They just don't consider this a critical issue?

Either way, this isn't a good thing for TiVo. #1 and #2 show ineptitude, and #3 and #4 show poor decision making (in my opinion) by TiVo.

Now flame away.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you know that is just a wrong statement and TiVo has indeed repsonded early on in the bug threads.


Which threads did they respond to about bugs in 7.3.1? I may have missed them but I do not recall any.


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## alansplace (Apr 30, 2006)

rainwater said:


> Which threads did they respond to about bugs in 7.3.1? I may have missed them but I do not recall any.


here is one where TiVoPony responded to you.  
08-28-2006, 10:30 AM
--
Alan


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

alansplace said:


> here is one where TiVoPony responded to you.
> 08-28-2006, 10:30 AM
> --
> Alan


Yes, I said before they responded to the slowness issues. But there are lots of bugs that have been reported and TiVo has kept absolutely silent. So much so that many people assume that TiVo doesn't even care to fix them. I certainly hope they are addressing them, but you can't get upset when people don't exactly have a lot of faith after being ignored for months.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

The whole discussion in this thread is funny. People on both sides make an assumption and then defend it as if was the fact.
I don't care much about this issue personally (I dumped my SA TiVos half a year ago, so I never experienced these bugs), but if I did, the first question on my mind would be - are these bugs even fixable? Fact that not all users have a problem to the same degree does not prove that there is a software bug that can be addressed. Nobody on this forum and quite possible even TiVO knows for sure. People assume too much reading Pony's reply. All he said "We're investigating this, and will look to make improvements. In the meantime, if you're having a particularly difficult experience, we can only apologize for the inconvenience and let you know that we appreciate your patience." Key words - "make improvements". TiVo never said that they will FIX the problem. "Make improvements" is a very lose definition. I can easily name a half a dozen problems with various TiVo models (both SA and DirecTiVo) in a past that were never fixed and people had to learn to deal with that. If I had to make a bet, I would bet on "problem with slow response will never be fixed". And this is just as valid of the assumption or speculation as anything else said in this thread on either side of the issue.


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## zoma4 (Jul 20, 2004)

samo said:


> The whole discussion in this thread is funny. People on both sides make an assumption and then defend it as if was the fact.
> I don't care much about this issue personally (I dumped my SA TiVos half a year ago, so I never experienced these bugs), but if I did, the first question on my mind would be - are these bugs even fixable? Fact that not all users have a problem to the same degree does not prove that there is a software bug that can be addressed. Nobody on this forum and quite possible even TiVO knows for sure. People assume too much reading Pony's reply. All he said "We're investigating this, and will look to make improvements. In the meantime, if you're having a particularly difficult experience, we can only apologize for the inconvenience and let you know that we appreciate your patience." Key words - "make improvements". TiVo never said that they will FIX the problem. "Make improvements" is a very lose definition. I can easily name a half a dozen problems with various TiVo models (both SA and DirecTiVo) in a past that were never fixed and people had to learn to deal with that. If I had to make a bet, I would bet on "problem with slow response will never be fixed". And this is just as valid of the assumption or speculation as anything else said in this thread on either side of the issue.


If it was computer software for a PC I'd agree with you, but for most people out there, they have not modified their boxes at all. We are using what TiVo sold us. It doesn't matter if everyone has the problem or not -- their software is not running on their hardware. It is TiVo's responsibility to do something about it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Yes, I said before they responded to the slowness issues. But there are lots of bugs that have been reported and TiVo has kept absolutely silent. So much so that many people assume that TiVo doesn't even care to fix them. I certainly hope they are addressing them, but you can't get upset when people don't exactly have a lot of faith after being ignored for months.


well I appreciate alansplace going back anddigging up the link, but I am not going to do so simply because you want to keep whining about being ignored. There were the initial bug threads and they were acknowledged and the public line of "working on them was given" why do you think TiVo will suddently do anything differently? Samo is right that these fall into two camps - ones that can be fixed and a timetable determined for how long - and those that are not identifiable as a specific coding problem. For all we know it was a batch of bad resistors that did not show up as a problem until the new software did something different. Maybe bad hard drives, etc..

TiVo will log them and identify them along such lines and get bug fixes they have into the works. We all know that anything TiVo might say publicly other than "working on it" has doomed them to bad press - *anything* they say. Theor only move left is to keep quiet and work on the QA along with the features. This is what they are doing.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

To add to this thread...

It is true, we do not share our development schedules, bug status, new feature info...none of that information is typically published here, or elsewhere outside of the company.

As I'd said, we've been focused on the items reported here. A service update is not far off. 

And, again, we appreciate the patience of those that have experienced issues. I'm certain the time seems long to you, but in development terms, it's relatively short. And we're almost through. 

Cheers,
Pony


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

JohnBrowning said:


> Should they put their entire development project plan on the web?


Definitely not. There are only three things TiVo should provide: (1) Acknowledgement of the problem; (2) Commitment to resolve it; (3) Firm date when a fix is to be provided. Nothing more.



> I've been developing and managing very large real-time software projects for nearly 30 years. The fact is that ALL software has bugs. No matter how much you test, you cannot replicate every combination of real-world events.


Absolutely. For every medium-severity NCMR in our queue right now I can tell you when it will be fixed and the fix delivered to our customers, plus or minus two weeks. (For high-severity NCMRs, I could tell you when the fix will be provided within two or three days. And I will live up to that forecast, absolutely.)



> There is absolutely no benefit to either TiVo or its customers to discuss the progress of each little bug on a daily basis.


I agree completely. Only bugs that foster 100+ message threads on these forums warrant such treatment IMHO.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> As I'd said, we've been focused on the items reported here. A service update is not far off.


With respect, Bill Clinton could have written this line. You've made two statements, and we can *infer *that the two are related, but you've either deliberately or inadvertently written them so that such an assumption can be later discounted. "A service update is not far off." Will this service update include remediation of the "items reported here"?


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## Phil W (Oct 24, 2006)

Nahh, it's the same thing as before. 

We'll fix it when we fix it. Please stop reminding people that we have a major problem with our primary product and no ETA for a fix to the problem we introduced and that we had no contingency plan to handle when we went rolled it out.

It's posts like this that make me ensure I do keep the threads alive so we don't get another post after the next update "well no one was complaining about it so we didn't prioritize it since it wasn't a problem."


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## ChrisOnjian (Oct 26, 2006)

I too have been hit by this slow down bug on both of my series 2 boxes. My biggest problem with this issue is not that it is happening. I work in the software field and I know that bugs will occur no matter how much due diligence is done before release. My biggest problem is that Tivo offers no way of reverting your box back to a previous "Working" version if a new update causes you problems. Just as it is possible to get on a priority list for new updates, you should be able to get on a list for a "downgrade". In my opinion, as soon as Tivo realized there was a widespread problem with 7.3 they should have offered to anyone who called in a downgrade till the problems were fixed.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

For Pete's sake people - you ***** loudly and often about the silence of Tivo in here, then when TP comes in and gives us some inside info all you can do is complain because he didn't say exactly what you wanted him to?

How about instead we try a *"Thanks for the update Pony, we're looking forward to it."*

Even my 3 year old knows enough to say "Thank you" and act polite - he knows that behaviors like this is enough to earn him a time out on the stairs for a little bit.

Chris, welcome to the forums - that's been discussed around here and the general consensus is that it would be much more difficult to support multiple versions of the software out there (while it may be not much more difficult when you're talking about 7.2/7.3, think about where that can lead in the future when it's 8 or 10 different versions, each with its own set of features, quirks and bugs)


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## Bimwad (Jul 4, 2005)

bicker said:


> I disagree. It all depends on what they have to say. If all they can say is, "We have no idea what's causing this. We don't know how we could possibly fix it (without ripping out features that we must leave in now)." -- then they're perhaps better-off saying nothing.
> 
> As a struggling business, they perhaps don't have the resources to address the problem in a timely manner -- something else they probably don't want to admit publicly.
> 
> And as a publicly-traded company in the public eye, they have even more incentive to say nothing, if they have nothing good to say.


You took my comments in the wrong context.

It's well past the point of seeking only meaningless updates or promises. Actions speak louder than words.

I was criticising TiVo for not having yet produced a *fix* and letting a crippled product languish for so long. Practically ignoring the complaints only made it worse, but as I said, that ship has sailed.

All the talk about software development also obscures the bigger picture. TiVo is not sold as a computer, but a consumer electronics device that any techno-neophyte can just plug-in and use.

It's not a PC. It's not a software package. It's a box that performs a limited and specfic set of functions. As a CE product, it should be held to a higher standard. None of the details behind how it's made or how it works should be of any consequence to the user.

Joe Six Pack doesn't care about those things. JSP bought a box to record TV shows and only wonders why it doesn't work like it did before.

JSP only wants it fixed, not the whys and hows behind the fix. JSP doesn't like to feel like he's been given the brush-off by the company he's given his hard-earned money to.

If TiVo had been more forthcoming and a seemed a little more caring about the situation, then a lot of ill feelings could have been avoided. Simple as that.

I do appreciate the recent update, and look forward to the release. I can only hope that this cycle will not be repeated again in the future. If TiVo indeed lacks the resources to adequately handle multiple development projects and unexpected problems simulataneously, then they need to set realistic goals when adding features or setting release schedules. Do it right the first time, on time, every time.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> With respect, Bill Clinton could have written this line. You've made two statements, and we can *infer *that the two are related, but you've either deliberately or inadvertently written them so that such an assumption can be later discounted. "A service update is not far off." Will this service update include remediation of the "items reported here"?





ZeoTiVo said:


> We all know that anything TiVo might say publicly other than "working on it" has doomed them to bad press - *anything* they say. Theor only move left is to keep quiet and work on the QA along with the features. This is what they are doing.


I can only shake my head


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## Phil W (Oct 24, 2006)

GoHokies! said:


> For Pete's sake people - you ***** loudly and often about the silence of Tivo in here, then when TP comes in and gives us some inside info all you can do is complain because he didn't say exactly what you wanted him to?
> 
> How about instead we try a *"Thanks for the update Pony, we're looking forward to it."*
> 
> ...


Hmmm - so we shouldn't point out that Tivo's been ignoring their paying customers for almost 3 months, and that the are still ignoring them on their own official forums? That this posting again did not give an ETA or an actual promise of a fix, just a vague promise of things being wonderful when we get it "soon"? That they're just trying to do damage control and not actually answering questions? Oh, and it's interesting that General Consensus says they can't support 2 versions of the software since they do just that during rollout of new versions as it takes months to get it downloaded onto everyone's boxes (from another of the rare Tivo messages.) So they can do it and they should do it when the've broken boxes to this extent.

I'd give them a lot more credibility if we'd seen anything like "we've identified a group of users that have this problem and have them on our early test program" or "we've gone over the usage logs of the people who have notified us of the problem and understand the issue" but we havent' seen anything like that. So far the track record has been: Silence, Denial there is a problem, Denial that more than one or two people are having problems, Complaints that we're complaining, and now a promsie that sometime in the future something will happen. Let's see. If I were to take that approach with my subscription payment then I'd either have a shut down box or have to pay them a nice fat resubscription fee.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Phil W said:


> Hmmm - so we shouldn't point out that Tivo's been ignoring their paying customers for almost 3 months, and that the are still ignoring them on their own official forums?


 these are not their own official forums. The TCF store was put in place so the independant owner of this forum can make some money. This forum has just had a history of having TiVo employees posting in it. Of course since the trend for the past year or so has been to add a string of whines behind anything posted by a TiVo employee they have not been so inclined to post a lot here. 
Lets dissect your post - you complain about being ignored and then proceed to trash the post from TiVoPony in which he answered the very question of this thread to the extent he publicly can. What ever happened to *common business courtesy and a professional manner*? Why not instead try something along the lines of - thank you for the response but it did not fully answer my query. Could you add more on what fixes you have worked out so far and you know to be included? Is there more information we could provide to answer what are still open bugs? What have you had a hard time getting to the root cause of?

no instead you all will go back to tearing the post apart and *****ing mightily about the lack of resposnes. Nice work, should really accomplish your goals and earn the thanks of everyone on the forum for getting TiVo more involved here


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## Phil W (Oct 24, 2006)

Actually I'm over here because Tivo has no presence on their own (www.tivo.com) forums. And I've already called the voice line multiple times and given lots of information at their official forums, with no response. One of the other customers pointed me over here to one of the sparse Tivo posts so my hope is that someone besides the outsourced help desk people can get the message that those of use who helped them get the market share they have aren't happy. And we're letting others know through our discussions that Tivo isn't acting like the company we knew when we advised them to buy Tivos.

And I'd also comment that maybe the reason that you see people jumping on any Tivo posts is that they are so silent, and that posts tend to come out as drive-bys. Having a presence in their official presence rather than just opening the forums, and having a "talk among yourselves, we're not interested in talking with our paying customers" attitude pretty much guarantees there's a LOT of backlog of questions when any slight presence is seen.

And he didn't answer my questions. He gave no information, just some promises that sometime in the future something would happen. And back in August I would have probably followed your advice, but since Tivo the company has ignored the issue for a quarter of a year, theyr'e running very low on goodwill.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Phil,

You obviously haven't been around here long - this is how Pony posts. He says what he can, but like he said Tivo isn't interested in publishing status reports about their software updates. I'm pretty sure that you'll have a hard time finding any company willing to do what it is you are asking.

You obviously also didn't read all of my post where I said that the problem wasn't in supporting two releases, but what happens in a year or two when Tivo users are spread out among 10 different software versions?

Just because Tivo thrown the doors wide open an answered your questions doesn't mean that they have ignored the issue. TP has again reminded us of the fact that they know, they're working on it, and based on his message I'd be surprised if we weren't a week or two from the rollout of the new software.

Relax and go enjoy your Tivo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Phil W said:


> And I'd also comment that maybe the reason that you see people jumping on any Tivo posts is that they are so silent, and that posts tend to come out as drive-bys.


 I was on this forum during the time when a post from a TiVoEmployee was treated in a professional manner. Sure they may have disagreed - in fact I had a big fat disagreement when they made HMO free soon after I paid for it. TiVoOpsMgr replied to a post of mine and we had a business like respectful discussion of it. I knew my feedback was being received by exactly the right source at TiVo and that they had listened to it. A phone call later al lwas square.

Now I have watched the degenration of this board as posters no longer use a respectful business like tone and just tear at and ***** away. I have watched the requency of employee postings go down, *though I very much appreciate they are still reading and will still post* I do not blame them for not jumping in more often.

in fact the opposite of what you posted is true. The reason TiVo is as silent as they are is that you see people jumping on each post they make, parseing the sentences and dissecting each word and just *****ing and moaning rather than looking for constructive dialog.

TiVo has taken the constructive comments in this forum seriously, they have been working on fixing everything they can possibly fix and the typical rollout schedule would indicate a year end update. TiVoPony's post only backs up my thinking on that


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

I addition, look at TivoStephen's posts in the recent thread about the new TivoCast things. Despite being berated over and over my many posters, he kept coming back trying to fix the issues that needed to be fixing, and explain the things that couldn't. For this, he continued to get slammed for the way that the TivoCasts work.

Expectation of Tivo employees to come in here and help us out when they are under *NO* obligation to do so is completely unrealistic.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I was on this forum during the time when a post from a TiVoEmployee was treated in a professional manner. Sure they may have disagreed - in fact I had a big fat disagreement when they made HMO free soon after I paid for it. TiVoOpsMgr replied to a post of mine and we had a business like respectful discussion of it. I knew my feedback was being received by exactly the right source at TiVo and that they had listened to it. A phone call later al lwas square.
> 
> Now I have watched the degenration of this board as posters no longer use a respectful business like tone and just tear at and ***** away. I have watched the requency of employee postings go down, *though I very much appreciate they are still reading and will still post* I do not blame them for not jumping in more often.
> 
> ...


There's no excuse for treating a TiVo employee in a non professional manner here in the forum. You are right that they don't have to post anything. However I would like to add that TiVo employee postings are worded very carefully and rarely deliver any specifics on any topic. The only thing left to many people is parsing words.

I'm certain that the employees that post here are limited in what they can say since any statement can be seen as a commitment by TiVo that possibly affects stock price, shareholder return, or even violate SEC regulations depending on how far you want to carry it.

We all appreciate information from TiVo, but we can't be blamed for wanting specifics. For instance it might be important for many people as to what the next service release contains and what it addresses. Regardless of the next service packs contents however I've already made a commitment to not purchase an S3 this year and possibly next as well, so it doesn't matter to me. For all those people that bit on the 800.00 price it may well be the difference in keeping or returning the product.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> There's no excuse for treating a TiVo employee in a non professional manner here in the forum. You are right that they don't have to post anything. However I would like to add that TiVo employee postings are worded very carefully and rarely deliver any specifics on any topic. The only thing left to many people is parsing words.


 there is aprsing words as in "we are close " taken to mean an update before the year is done and then there is parsing words like Bicker did to mean 'Will this service update include remediation of the "items reported here"?' Now I do want to Note that Bicker was repsectful and professional in his reply and could be taken as a model of how to disagree. It is just that his post also shows extreme parsing of the words  


> I'm certain that the employees that post here are limited in what they can say since any statement can be seen as a commitment by TiVo that possibly affects stock price, shareholder return, or even violate SEC regulations depending on how far you want to carry it.
> 
> We all appreciate information from TiVo, but we can't be blamed for wanting specifics. For instance it might be important for many people as to what the next service release contains and what it addresses. Regardless of the next service packs contents however I've already made a commitment to not purchase an S3 this year and possibly next as well, so it doesn't matter to me. For all those people that bit on the 800.00 price it may well be the difference in keeping or returning the product.


 all good points, but specifics would just raise the bar on getting ripped in the forum and having the message parsed to some other meaning. I am afraid the climate here just does not allow for specifics to be effective for TiVo and they have to take the hit on people not waiting for the actual update. It sucks all around and I wish the climate in the forum was different.


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

Series 2 Standalone

* CPU:
o 1xx/2xx-series: NEC 5432 (MIPS), 166 MHz
o 5xx-series: Broadcom BCM7317[1], 242 MHz
o 6xx-series: Broadcom BCM7318[2], 266 MHz
* RAM:
o 1xx/2xx/5xx-series: 32 MB of 133 Mhz 16-bit DDR
o 6xx-series: 64 MB of 133 Mhz 16-bit DDR
* MPEG Encoder
o 1xx/2xx/5xx-series: Broadcom BCM7040[3]
o 6xx-series: Two Broadcom BCM7042

It's easy to see that owners of the older models (like me), with a 166MHz CPU and 32MB of memory are going to have issues compared to someone with a newer TiVo using a 266MHz CPU and 64MB of memory.
We need different software builds for the earlier machines!


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

What I find very interesting about this whole thread is...

of the people bit^H^H^Hcomplaining about the people that are complaining about their hobbled Tivos, and Tivo's response to the issue, I can't tell that _any_ of them are actually affected by the problem.

I haven't seen a single post from anyone along the lines of "I have the problem. it suck, and my tivo is barely usable, but I am happy to wait with no ETA from tivo until they fix it. you guys should stfu".


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> To add to this thread...
> 
> It is true, we do not share our development schedules, bug status, new feature info...none of that information is typically published here, or elsewhere outside of the company.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response here. It's appreciate by me and I'm sure by others.
However, you may be missing the bigger picture. I doubt anyone reasonably expects that you (or any Tivo employee) would provide information on development schedules and feature enhancements here.

The issue is more around the company policy on bug status, at least critical or pervasive ones. (Personally, as annoying as the 7.3.1 performance issues are, I'm more concerned about the Series 3 partial recordings issue(s), which hit at the heart of Tivo's major benefit over the competition - reliability.)

Most of the frustration isn't necessarily that the bugs exist, but that we have no reasonable way to know if they're on anyone's radar. Someone in development must maintain a critical defect list - there should be a way to provide a summary without (a) giving away trade secrets (b) discussing new features or (c) impacting development schedules. Maybe just limit it to the sev 1 or most critical issues.

Of course, if you had such a list/summary, there would be disagreement on whether the priority was appropriate, but's that a different issue.

People assume the worst when they don't have information. Give your user community, especially those here, just enough information to realize that "Tivo gets it" and understands there are issues.

Tivo users may never see new features, but they have to run the level of code provided (and I'm NOT for the oft-advocated roll back to another release option). If there are issues in that level of code that impact my Tivo experience, I at least want to the things I shouldn't consider "normal".

By lumping bug/defect acknowledgment in the same category as new features, that implies that Tivo doesn't understand (or doesn't care) about the difference.

I hope you will consider at least raising the possibility with your management of a change in policy that would provide some level of information available to your community (and front-line CSRs) that would help your customers deal with the frustration that occurs when code doesn't always work as designed or desired without raising unrealistic hopes or creating undeserved frustration with Tivo.


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

I have a couple TiVos at home that are responsive and I wouldn't think of them as slow to do anything. However, I've been with DirecTV for a long time with DirecTiVos until I recently dumped them for a Series3. I don't have a Series3 yet, but will have several before the end of the year. I think my SA TiVos that I haven't used very much until lately work as fast as they used to. However, I gave my mother-in-law a Humax 80 hr model and it's really slow. Now I can see what people are talking about. I was there to clean her computer out just last night of all the AOL junk slowing it down that the grandchildren downloaded. I was watching TV and the Humax TiVo was running slow through the menus. She loves her TiVo and I'm glad TiVoPony by coincidence just came by to say it's going to be fixed because it really was embarrassing to me that my gift to her worked almost as bad as her slow windows PC I was repairing. Actually the PC was a lot worse.


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## alansplace (Apr 30, 2006)

TiVoPony said:


> To add to this thread...
> 
> It is true, we do not share our development schedules, bug status, new feature info...none of that information is typically published here, or elsewhere outside of the company.


as i'd expect. 



TiVoPony said:


> As I'd said, we've been focused on the items reported here.


good! 



TiVoPony said:


> A service update is not far off.


great! 



TiVoPony said:


> And, again, we appreciate the patience of those that have experienced issues. I'm certain the time seems long to you, but in development terms, it's relatively short.


 yes it has. 



TiVoPony said:


> And we're almost through.


 again great! 



TiVoPony said:


> Cheers,
> Pony


thanks for responding!  
--
Alan


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I can only shake my head


I can understand the frustration and the responses. Sorry but I'd have to agree that Tivo is really late to the party with at least providing some info as to the fact that there actually is a problem (so far all we had gotten was a "We're looking into it") and when (ball park) we might expect a fix or some type of explanation as to how hard the problem is going to be to solve.

Y-ASK

I got so pissed that I fixed my DirecTV box and swapped it with my TX-20 which is now back in my home office collecting dust. Sorry but I just couldn't deal with the multiple Tivo button presses and no response for various length of time.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Again, I will point to the following thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=306673

It is about 8 pages of bug reports. Not a single one of them has been addressed and TivoPony has been so vague it isn't clear that any of them will be. I find it odd that the only posts that have been addressed are the fact that TiVo admits there are "some" people experiencing slowdowns. While that is all find and dandy, there are a lot of other serious issues that 7.3.1 has beyond being slow.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Again, I will point to the following thread:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=306673
> 
> It is about 8 pages of bug reports. Not a single one of them has been addressed and TivoPony has been so vague it isn't clear that any of them will be. I find it odd that the only posts that have been addressed are the fact that TiVo admits there are "some" people experiencing slowdowns. While that is all find and dandy, there are a lot of other serious issues that 7.3.1 has beyond being slow.


I only see 5 pages (my view prefs are set to 50 posts per page). The thread has 217 posts as I write this, many of them being duplicates, 'me too' confirmations and/or tangential discussions. Thread length is a poor, and at times deceptive metric for the purpose of tracking issue severity and frequency. Now if we(end users) had access to a proper bug reporting/tracking system (ala bugzilla) instead of forum posts, it would be much more possible to put a quantitative assessment on how many bugs are affecting how many users (a thing TiVo *should* be aware of, but that we forum users can only wildly and all but blindly guess at).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Again, I will point to the following thread:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=306673
> 
> It is about 8 pages of bug reports. Not a single one of them has been addressed and TivoPony has been so vague it isn't clear that any of them will be.


by addressed do you mean directly replied to in a post? because that is the only correct thing. When TiVoPony said "focused on the items reported here" I took that to mean the forum. I doubt TiVo is just ignoring what the customers are posting. Should TiVo be spending their time replying to the volumes of posts in here or should they take the constructive comments in this forum seriously, work on fixing everything they can possibly fix and the typical rollout schedule would indicate a year end update. TiVoPony's post only backs up my thinking on that


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## alansplace (Apr 30, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> When TiVoPony said "focused on the items reported here" I took that to mean the forum.


so did i.
--
Alan


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> by addressed do you mean directly replied to in a post? because that is the only correct thing. When TiVoPony said "focused on the items reported here" I took that to mean the forum. I doubt TiVo is just ignoring what the customers are posting. Should TiVo be spending their time replying to the volumes of posts in here or should they take the constructive comments in this forum seriously, work on fixing everything they can possibly fix and the typical rollout schedule would indicate a year end update. TiVoPony's post only backs up my thinking on that


I don't think TiVo should have to respond to every post/thread or tell us exactly when a fix is coming. I'm not one to complain that we don't have an exact bug fix list about an upcoming release. All I wanted to know is if they are planning on fixing the major issues reported (most are in that thread). The vagueness of the responses is very upsetting to say the least.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Should TiVo be spending their time replying to the volumes of posts in here or should they take the constructive comments in this forum seriously, work on fixing everything they can possibly fix and the typical rollout schedule would indicate a year end update.


Tivo should respond in a timely manner (not three months after the problem is reported) to volumes of complaints and provide enough details to pacify those of us patiently awaiting the fix. I'm sorry but your input as to what you "think" Tivo is doing about the problem and when you "think" they are going to release a fix is not enough for me. You may end up being proven right but that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about when it comes to Tivo's bug fix activities...

Y-ASK


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> Tivo should respond in a timely manner (not three months after the problem is reported) to volumes of complaints and provide enough details to pacify those of us patiently awaiting the fix. I'm sorry but your input as to what you "think" Tivo is doing about the problem and when you "think" they are going to release a fix is not enough for me. You may end up being proven right but that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about when it comes to Tivo's bug fix activities...
> 
> Y-ASK


Actually its more like four months. But who's counting...


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## Phil W (Oct 24, 2006)

Interesting. End of year may be acceptable to those who don't have the problems, but for those of us waiting multiple seconds just to move up or down a single channel in the listings (not change the channel, just see what's on it), it's already been too long if the update were to come out today. End of year release would put it into January (possibly through it) to get everyone updated and that would mean it would be close to 6 months of problems, possibly longer. Not to mention if that's a standard release cycle as was implied in the comments above, that pretty much communicates that there was no interest in giving an accelerated fix for a problem they caused with the update. So much for listening to customers. (I hope this is not the case and I misunderstood.)

For those who asked why weren't the problems reported - they were. In detail. Quite a few times. The problem seems to be that many people (including myself) had the mistaken thought that since the www.tivo.com/support fourms were actually run by Tivo, that location was the place we should go to first to report problems and get information. I see that was a silly assumption, as was the multiple calls to the Tivo support line where the people there weren't being given any information.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> You may end up being proven right but that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about when it comes to Tivo's bug fix activities...
> 
> Y-ASK


just have to ask if you mean to say it would just be lucky guesses. 

and for the record - the slowdown is very severe defect that is in a different category from something like the delete now not showing up in the last 5 minutes. I do think Jhf3 had a good post in this thread for TiVo to consider a better reporting mechanism for errors in this level, like the partial recording error. I am not against that.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Actually its more like four months. But who's counting...


Or 6 months if you experience the LiveTV lockup bug on the S2DT. Not that I think it will ever be addressed though.


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## tmorehen (Dec 25, 2005)

From what I can see people's expectations are entirely unrealistic.

1) What other commercial software company provides release dates for updates, including a list of what they are working on? None that I am aware of. Where are the expected release dates for 3rd party Tivo software like tivoweb or mfsadd?
2) 3 or 4 months is a very short time when it comes to software updates, particularly when the problem has different impacts on different machines at different times of the use cycle. Take for example the slowdown. It appears to be affected by how long the Tivo is idle. Just think about the time it would take to find and fix the problem when you have to wait hours between tests. Then there is the testing of the bug fixes on every machine type that will receive the fix. That alone could take more than a month. After all, no one wants a bug fix that introduces more problems.
3) I also took a look at that list of bugs not fixed. I didn't see anything that was a show stopper, anything that I would assign a high priority. Most items involve some minor inconvenience under somewhat unusual circumstances. Many weren't even what I would classify as a bug - they were simply complaints that their Tivo doesn't work they way I think it should.
4) There's no doubt that the introduction of the series 3 has distracted Tivo from our issues. The release of a new product always involves surprises -- things that have to be dealt with right away. And yes Tivo should increase staff to compensate but no company fully staffs for a short-lived peak demand.

Let me be clear. I want the slowdown fixed as soon as possible. I have an 80 hour Humax whose guide takes 10 seconds to appear. However, I am willing to be reasonably patient.


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## ab3tx (Mar 13, 2006)

angra said:


> What I find very interesting about this whole thread is...
> 
> of the people bit^H^H^Hcomplaining about the people that are complaining about their hobbled Tivos, and Tivo's response to the issue, I can't tell that _any_ of them are actually affected by the problem.
> 
> I haven't seen a single post from anyone along the lines of "I have the problem. it suck, and my tivo is barely usable, but I am happy to wait with no ETA from tivo until they fix it. you guys should stfu".


 
I have the problem. It sucks, my tivo is barely usable, but I am going to wait with no ETA from TiVo until they fix it. 


There. I almost said it.  Notice, however, that I didn't quote you exactly. Yes, I have the slowness problem. But, no, I am not happy about it. I am, however, willing to sit here quietly until it is fixed. If, at some point, I get sufficiently annoyed by it then I will sell my LT 540 on Ebay, and go another route.

I am willing to sit here quietly for 2 reasons: 1) I am of the opinion that enough people have reported the problem that if TiVo was going to pay attention, then that threshold has been crossed. 2) Regardless of #1, a Tivo employee had stated that some fix is in the works. Lets see that fix in the wild, and then I'll determine any possible action necessary. Me being # 85,464 to state I have a problem in these forums gets nothing extra accomplished beyond what is already being done.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Phil W said:


> Interesting. End of year may be acceptable to those who don't have the problems, but for those of us waiting multiple seconds just to move up or down a single channel in the listings (not change the channel, just see what's on it), it's already been too long if the update were to come out today. End of year release would put it into January (possibly through it) to get everyone updated and that would mean it would be close to 6 months of problems, possibly longer. Not to mention if that's a standard release cycle as was implied in the comments above, that pretty much communicates that there was no interest in giving an accelerated fix for a problem they caused with the update. So much for listening to customers. (I hope this is not the case and I misunderstood.)


 Yes, it will probably start in November and they roll it out slow at first and then speed it up. They tend to have a prioroity list as well so look for that, though some will be understandably gun shy of that this time. the 7.3.1 was a fast fix they put out for some problems and I think it fixed some with the slowdown. It seems like the rest of the fixes they wanted to run through the normal release process. With an appliance like this you have to be careful of the rush it out the door approach as you can just cause more harm than good very quickly. I do see your point that the problem has existed a long time on your TiVo DVR, but this is very likely not a case where TiVo had the fix and withheld it or knew the problem and did not say becasue they did not care. I suspect they are working hard to figure this out and so that is all they can really say and why they can not promise an actual date without knowing the specifics of your particular box and what its particular problem is.


> For those who asked why weren't the problems reported - they were. In detail. Quite a few times. The problem seems to be that many people (including myself) had the mistaken thought that since the www.tivo.com/support fourms were actually run by Tivo, that location was the place we should go to first to report problems and get information. I see that was a silly assumption, as was the multiple calls to the Tivo support line where the people there weren't being given any information.


 that is the correct thing to do first and it would be good if more followed your example. The silly assumption though is till that everyone thinks TiVo had a quick fix for what is most likely a variety of factors causing many flavors of the same problem


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

tmorehen said:


> 3) I also took a look at that list of bugs not fixed. I didn't see anything that was a show stopper, anything that I would assign a high priority.


Freezes and reboots aren't high priority? You should check out the help forum to see how many posts there are every single week because wireless adapters are causing TiVos to become totally unstable.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that is the correct thing to do first and it would be good if more followed your example.


I'm sorry, but using the Tivo.com forums for reporting bugs is just ridiculous. TiVo should at least have a proper reporting mechanism in place so they could accurately gauge bugs severity based on the problem and the platform.


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## bgiannes (Oct 26, 2006)

Well......

Last week i was using my Tivo 'Netgear usb wireless adaptor' on an other PC, so Tivo was not connected to the LAN and thus was not updating for about week. All was well in Tivo land! 

Monday, i pluged it back into the Tivo (it's a series 2 140Hr 540). I manualy when to the update menu, and started the "update". Tivo connected downloaded its files and loaded them then rebooted it's self. 

The unit is lagging badly all menus are slow, but my bigest problem is the Tivo is in a rebooting loop!?!? 

I know I know, your all going to say is the HD, but funny this all happened after the 7.??downgrade? I'm not happy, I sure it's out of warranty?? (I'm very techy) But I really don't have the time to rebuild the dam thing, (new drive(s) and stuff) and it does smell of a software problem anyway..... 

Maybe a total reset would work?


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## mhalver (Nov 3, 2005)

I experience the slowness myself (on both TiVo's), but I don't consider it to make my TiVo's unusable. I have a few other minor problems that I consider more annoying but still they are not major (for example the problem with the "recording now" flag not getting changed off once a recording finishes if you started watching it while it is recording).

I have noticed another bug lately that I haven't seen reported. If I left arrow to get back to the menu when watching a recording, it takes a second for the menu to change from play to resume. Thus if I right arrow immediately I go back to the beginning of the program instead of where I was.

I'm hoping that the long delay with a new update mearly means that they are being extra careful to not introduce new bugs.


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

hey no sweat man, I have nothing against the people who are not upset. The only thing that strikes me as kind of silly are the people getting mad at the people who AREN'T happy to have a crippled product for an indefinite period of time.

FWIW, I have 3 tivos, and only one of them is crippled. The other 2 are directv integrated units, and are immune. My SA is, to me, totally useless, and I only use it now in special situations where all 4 other tuners are busy for some reason. I am _very_ sympathetic to the people hobbled by this. if it was my only Tivo I would be _MAD_, especially since I have it on lifetime and have no recourse. I think that the people affected have every right to be upset, and if the responses they want are not totally reasonable, I can forgive it, because the reasonable response from tivo is not arriving or apparently forthcoming.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

rainwater said:


> I'm sorry, but using the Tivo.com forums for reporting bugs is just ridiculous. TiVo should at least have a proper reporting mechanism in place so they could accurately gauge bugs severity based on the problem and the platform.


no - Phil W went into the official TiVo support forums first to see what the problem might be. He then called into TiVo and reported it. I know the call in method will get a case number generated which gives TiVo the data on how many have a problem, etc..


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## bgiannes (Oct 26, 2006)

You know, 

If upgrades could be controled by the user, ie installed and uninstalled this @#@#% wouldn't happen. The user could just skip over the bad updates, by not installing them?


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## alansplace (Apr 30, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> The issue is more around the company policy on bug status, at least critical or pervasive ones.
> 
> ....... Most of the frustration isn't necessarily that the bugs exist, but that we have no reasonable way to know if they're on anyone's radar
> 
> ...... I hope you will consider at least raising the possibility with your management of a change in policy that would provide some level of information available to your community (and front-line CSRs) that would help your customers deal with the frustration that occurs when code doesn't always work as designed or desired without raising unrealistic hopes or creating undeserved frustration with Tivo.


for close to 6 years i worked for a major player in the open source community. we used, and they still do, a web based open source bug report system called bugzilla.

perhaps it could be the answer here.
--
Alan


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## bgiannes (Oct 26, 2006)

oh, i know

Just have the techs rename the last (ie working version 6.??) to 8.0 and post it so it can be downloaded.


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## tough joe (Sep 16, 2006)

Tivo4Meevo said:


> I found this on youtube. It is very similar to the way my Tivo (model TCD540080) performs:
> 
> Slow Humax Tivo


yup - mine too. I even tried to restore the entire unit to factory original condition - you know, doing that "clear and delete everything". Well, it did nothing to speed up the unit. I wonder if the tivo drives over time need to be "defragmented" ? I know we cant do that, but I wonder if that might be the problem. Also, would changing out (upgrading) the hard drive fix it? If this is truly a software problem, then none of my suggestions would work.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

alansplace said:


> for close to 6 years i worked for a major player in the open source community. we used, and they still do, a web based open source bug report system called bugzilla.
> 
> perhaps it could be the answer here.
> --
> Alan


 interesting ideas but all of them need resources to man that TiVo just does not have nor can afford right now.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

alansplace said:


> for close to 6 years i worked for a major player in the open source community. we used, and they still do, a web based open source bug report system called bugzilla.
> 
> perhaps it could be the answer here.
> --
> Alan


Maybe, but I'm for baby steps.

Let's see if we can get Tivo to provide some high-level summary/status reporting before we shoot for the moon and let anyone open a bug report without trying to get past a first level phone CSR ...


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

rainwater said:


> TivoPony has been so vague it isn't clear that any of them will be. I find it odd that the only posts that have been addressed are the fact that TiVo admits there are "some" people experiencing slowdowns.


Rainwater,

What part of "It is true, we do not share our development schedules, bug status, new feature info...none of that information is typically published here, or elsewhere outside of the company." no you not understand? it isn't that difficult, but I'll be as plain as I can *YOUR EXPECTATIONS ARE UNREALISTIC*.

Angra, one of my 4 Tivos (1 S3, 2 540, 1 240) are affected. It isn't that big a deal, because it's the Tivo dedicated to my 3 year old's shows. Unlike you all, he can deal with waiting 20-30 seconds to get into his shows. You're right if it was my S3 or the one of the S2's that I use for my stuff I would be a little more annoyed but I'd like to think that I would not be as rude to Pony as some of the other posters in here.

bgiannes, The S3 looks like it is going to take the 8.x series of software - I guess that the S3 will have the even numbers (8.x, 10.x, etc) and the S2's the odd. See my previous posts about why your rolling back the versions is a bad idea.

Any guesses that the next update will be 7.3.2 or 7.4.0?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Rainwater,
> 
> Angra, one of my 4 Tivos (1 S3, 2 540, 1 240) are affected. It isn't that big a deal, because it's the Tivo dedicated to my 3 year old's shows. Unlike you all, he can deal with waiting 20-30 seconds to get into his shows.


You've hit on it Hokie - TiVo should market their product only to 3 year olds who won't complain when their equipment turns to garbage!

(Go Hokies - Beat Clemson)
Roy


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> no - Phil W went into the official TiVo support forums first to see what the problem might be. He then called into TiVo and reported it. I know the call in method will get a case number generated which gives TiVo the data on how many have a problem, etc..


I agree that is the method that should be done now. However, when I have called, the CS seemed clueless and getting them to actually create a ticket is next to impossible. Thats why they need to improve the system. Its almost as though they use customer service to filter out bug reports so they don't have to deal with them.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

RoyK said:


> (Go Hokies - Beat Clemson)


Now I think we can all get behind that!!!  :up: :up: :up:


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Rainwater,
> 
> What part of "It is true, we do not share our development schedules, bug status, new feature info...none of that information is typically published here, or elsewhere outside of the company." no you not understand? it isn't that difficult, but I'll be as plain as I can *YOUR EXPECTATIONS ARE UNREALISTIC*.


My expectations is I would of hoped the lockup issue on 2 of my S2 DTs would of been fixed since first reporting this directly to TiVo 6 months ago. It is also my expectation that TiVo would address the bugs that have been reported on the bug thread. I never asked for the date the release will happen or a changelog of what was fixed. I only asked that TiVo let us know if they are even planning on fixing those issues. I don't think that is asking for a lot. Instead the only statement is so vague it doesn't address a single issue affecting any of the S2s.


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> it's the Tivo dedicated to my 3 year old's shows. Unlike you all, he can deal with waiting 20-30 seconds to get into his shows. You're right if it was my S3 or the one of the S2's that I use for my stuff I would be a little more annoyed but I'd like to think that I would not be as rude to Pony as some of the other posters in here.


He also didn't pay hundreds of dollars and probably doesn't know how it is supposed to work. I certainly do not endorse being rude to anyone. I am just saying that you people being rude to the folks who are complaining the most are being unreasonable. People who spent hundreds of dollars on a box that is now crippled have a right to be upset. Being so does not equate them to a 3 year old. Saying that people should just shut up, wait, and deal, as several in this thread are basically saying, is totally silly.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> The silly assumption though is till that everyone thinks TiVo had a quick fix for what is most likely a variety of factors causing many flavors of the same problem


I'd say your assumption that 'everyone' thinks this is silly.

The issue I have with Tivo on this is they knew there were performance issues being reported before they hit the rollout button, but they did it anyways.

I'm guessing/hoping that their problem hasn't so much been identifying the issue...but creating a newer version that doesn't exhibit it. Now if this requires them to rewrite a lot of code, then I understand the delay....but once again, since they did not test the prior release thoroughly or heed the early user complaints, they lost most of my sympathy.

Hopefully they do a post-mortem on this entire issue, and change their methodology for testing/rollout. ie...making a negative into a positive.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

angra said:


> He also didn't pay hundreds of dollars and probably doesn't know how it is supposed to work. I certainly do not endorse being rude to anyone. I am just saying that you people being rude to the folks who are complaining the most are being unreasonable. People who spent hundreds of dollars on a box that is now crippled have a right to be upset. Being so does not equate them to a 3 year old. Saying that people should just shut up, wait, and deal, as several in this thread are basically saying, is totally silly.


I did say that I was the one that had to use it, and I wasn't angry about it either. If you want to get up in arms about the people getting rude, how about getting up in arms about the ones being rude to the people that are supposed to help? There's a middle ground here for polite disagreement that needs to be explored.



Stu_bee said:


> The issue I have with Tivo on this is they knew there were performance issues being reported before they hit the rollout button, but they did it anyways.


That's a bold statement, why do you say that?


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## ab3tx (Mar 13, 2006)

angra said:


> He also didn't pay hundreds of dollars and probably doesn't know how it is supposed to work. I certainly do not endorse being rude to anyone. I am just saying that you people being rude to the folks who are complaining the most are being unreasonable. People who spent hundreds of dollars on a box that is now crippled have a right to be upset. Being so does not equate them to a 3 year old. Saying that people should just shut up, wait, and deal, as several in this thread are basically saying, is totally silly.


I almost wrote the below words in my earlier reply to you, but wasn't sure that is exactly what you were saying, and in the interest of not fanning the flames, deleted it.  Well, here goes... 

As a heretofore silent STFUer, here's what I perceive the two main points of the STFU crowd to be: 1. They can't fix it any faster, so let them work. 2. Don't make the TiVo employees mad and run them off. And if that is indeed the case, I agree with both points. As I said earlier, when I personally get mad enough at TiVo that I can't take anymore, my 540 goes on Ebay, and I walk down a new road. Nobody here will ever know, and I don't expect the first person to care. I don't personally understand when somebody makes the third, or fourth or two-hundredth post that their box is slow and TiVo is evil, their employees are evil and everybody that doesn't explicitly agree with them is evil. And, without fail, somebody from the other side jumps in, calls that person evil and just continues the argument, and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. And I don't agree with that either, FWIW.


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## alansplace (Apr 30, 2006)

ab3tx said:


> As a heretofore silent STFUer, here's what I perceive the two main points of the STFU crowd to be:
> 
> 1. They can't fix it any faster, so let them work.
> 
> 2. Don't make the TiVo employees mad and run them off.


well said!  
--
Alan


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## Phil W (Oct 24, 2006)

You know, I would be more agreeable to being quiet if there wasn't this little thing called a subscription they charge. Time = money. Tivo chose the model, so when they cost me usability during my subscription period, I have no problems giving them some small discomfort in reminding me that I am having a large amount of discomfort.

And as far as the fact that they can't fix it faster, we have no way of knowing if that's true or not. We just know that they haven't fixed it faster, and also that they have chosen not to offer to downgrade to the previous version that did not have this defect. And to head off someone again pointing out they can't afford to support more than one version of the software - what's the cost for support? As far as we've seen there's no communications cost as there's no Tivo presence on their own forums, no updates on when things will be fixed, no official way to report a bug except to call and demand a case be opened, which then never has any communications back on status or projected fix. So roll it back and put us at the end of the upgrade line and do a back to back 7.3 to 7.3.1 to 7.4 update over two nights when everyone else has moved to 7.4.


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

ab3tx said:


> As I said earlier, when I personally get mad enough at TiVo that I can't take anymore, my 540 goes on Ebay, and I walk down a new road. Nobody here will ever know, and I don't expect the first person to care.


I thought about this today, and the thing is, with the new contractual requirements, a lot of people don't even have that option. And not everyone considers ebay a "way out", for various reasons.



> I don't personally understand when somebody makes the third, or fourth or two-hundredth post that their box is slow and TiVo is evil, their employees are evil and everybody that doesn't explicitly agree with them is evil. And, without fail, somebody from the other side jumps in, calls that person evil and just continues the argument, and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. And I don't agree with that either, FWIW.


well I agree with you. I don't think getting personal with the tivo employees is productive at all. I haven't and don't reccomend or condoned it. I'm not "up in arms" about this as one presumptious comment above assumes. I just think that getting personal with everyone who complains more than 2 or three times isn't appropriate or helpful, either. I'm not saying that this is you or anyone else in this thread.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

angra said:


> Saying that people should just shut up, wait, and deal, as several in this thread are basically saying, is totally silly.


the thing is - I never told anyone to STFU - I replied when I disagreed with what they are saying and would state my argument to the contrary - but I never told them to stop posting, just pointed out that TiVo already knew about it and people saying that TiVo was ignoring the problem or not working on it, had not tested etc.. were wrong. They wanted to debate the issue so we debated. They wnat to say the same thing 200 times, I reserve teh right to reply back they are wrong 200 times.

In fact I stated in some recent posts that TiVo did read through these threads and would pull constructive feedback and real data on problems out of here. If there is a problem on a TiVo, posting here is most likely going to help. However the climate of going beyond that and deciding all kinds of silly speculation is fact is prevalent on the forum and I chose to counter that.


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> I did say that I was the one that had to use it, and I wasn't angry about it either. If you want to get up in arms about the people getting rude, how about getting up in arms about the ones being rude to the people that are supposed to help? There's a middle ground here for polite disagreement that needs to be explored.


well, I did not see any mention that you use it in your post, and only reference to how your three year old is more patient than "you all" (which incidentally doesn't even include me!). maybe I missed it, oh well. As to being "up in arms", I think you guys are up in arms plenty for everyone to be honest. Tivo and the employees are being paid to be involved with this, and the people upset are spending plenty of their money for a hobbled product.

I agree about polite disagreement. I do not think that it is helpful or productive for the consumers to be rude to tivo employees, and I do not think that it is helpful or productive for TCF members to be rude to each other. No matter how sick they are of seeing the wheels "squeak".


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

angra said:


> I thought about this today, and the thing is, with the new contractual requirements, a lot of people don't even have that option. And not everyone considers ebay a "way out", for various reasons.


Yes, as angra hinted at: various reasons. eBay is not a way out for lifetime memberships and it's not a way out for others who never use eBay.



angra said:


> well I agree with you. I don't think getting personal with the tivo employees is productive at all. I haven't and don't reccomend or condoned it. I'm not "up in arms" about this as one presumptious comment above assumes. I just think that getting personal with everyone who complains more than 2 or three times isn't appropriate or helpful, either. I'm not saying that this is you or anyone else in this thread.


People come here to vent because they don't feel their voice will be heard anywhere else. They're correct to a point -- they won't be heard as an individual anywhere else, but the market and eBay sellers (those up in arms as a group) will make a noise loud enough for TiVo to hear.

Sometimes the ranting and fuming posts don't need replies. They just need to be posted and be visible. So whether or not some people feel TiVo employees are being mean in return may not be the issue. The issue is, that rants and flames generally get worse the more and more people argue about it.

Those frustrated with TiVo should post their concerns (of course, in a civil manner) without the need for everyone (TiVo enthusiasts and employees) responding with more fuel for the flames. If someone rants, they may not be too proud of it tomorrow, and the last thing they want to see is someone else picking apart their rant. I'm sure we've all been there at some forum online.

A rant is a rant: just a complaint. It doesn't necessarily need to be "resolved".


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

angra said:


> Tivo and the employees are being paid to be involved with this, and the people upset are spending plenty of their money for a hobbled product.


I doubt this severely - TivoStephen's job description is head of TivoCast something of other, I seriously doubt that includes answering posters here. I suspect the same of Pony. Either way, if their participation becomes detrimental, we can expect to see them disappear.

I did say that I'd be "a little more" upset under different circumstances, implying that the slowness does in fact bother me.

ab3tx (is that your callsign?) really nailed it for me - right on the head.

(10-7 at halftime!!! Go Hokies indeed!)


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

Phil W said:


> also that they have chosen not to offer to downgrade to the previous version that did not have this defect.


Phil,

it might not be realistically possible to offer downgrade, at least without a C&DE. There may be database structural changes that aren't (easily, after the fact) reversible. I have no idea if this is actually the case (I don't do any of my hacking/mods on the hobbled unit, and my working units have older s/w on them).


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## Phil W (Oct 24, 2006)

angra said:


> Phil,
> 
> it might not be realistically possible to offer downgrade, at least without a C&DE. There may be database structural changes that aren't (easily, after the fact) reversible. I have no idea if this is actually the case (I don't do any of my hacking/mods on the hobbled unit, and my working units have older s/w on them).


That is absolutely true. And if they stated that reason, I'd ask about the possibility of doing the rollback even if it meant wiping out the currently recorded programs (it's that bad) but that's a whole other level of complexity and I'd probably not push that unless the fix wouldn't be availible until the end of the year. Again lack of communication is the biggest part of the ill feelings going on. A simple "We know we broke it, we've got x devs tasked with getting the fix out as fast as possible and all new features are on hold until we fix the bugs we've introduced" would get them out of tons of ill will.


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

Phil W said:


> That is absolutely true. And if they stated that reason, I'd ask about the possibility of doing the rollback even if it meant wiping out the currently recorded programs (it's that bad)


The funny thing is....if you had a backup image from before the upgrade, you could restore that, get the old software, and it would run....

but once you are X days overdue for an upgrade (I dont know what X is), your daily call will stop aquiring data and the tivo will act like it has no service.


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## Phil W (Oct 24, 2006)

angra said:


> The funny thing is....if you had a backup image from before the upgrade, you could restore that, get the old software, and it would run....
> 
> but once you are X days overdue for an upgrade (I dont know what X is), your daily call will stop aquiring data and the tivo will act like it has no service.


An even more funny thing is that if I hadn't moved from my old web server and network hacked Series 1 to my current Series 2 to keep from having to worry about updates, I wouldn't have this problem.  The box I had set up to have backups of, wouldn't need them because updates are no longer coming out for it.

I moved from the Series 1 to the Series 2 to have all the Tivo Desktop features and media capabilities without the slowdown that the custom rolled solutions created.


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## angra (Apr 12, 2002)

yes, my brother and parents have S1 units. I am jealous of them when I use my S2. I warn them not to upgrade for now.


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I was on this forum during the time when a post from a TiVoEmployee was treated in a professional manner. ... Now I have watched the degenration of this board as posters no longer use a respectful business like tone and just tear at and ***** away.


When a company or organization makes mistakes and breaks promises (ie: the last update for series 2 and "lifetime membership" that isn't really lifetime membership), the community is bound to get angry and start flames. Nothing new there.

Of course people should be civil and courteous to each other. Unfortunately, it's far too easy to shoot off a post with a bunch of hate in it before we have time to let our anger subside. In time our worries dissipate, but for now, many TiVo users are mad.

I'm furious with TiVo as well, yet I try to be civil. Its tough sometimes, and I don't blame people for leaning in on TiVo employees who graciously post here, so long as they're not verbally insulting, abusing, harassing, or threatening them. If that's the case, that individual should be dealt with -- not the entire community accused of it.

I'm sure the TiVo employees who do still post here realize that people are just angry about TiVo, and not angry at the inividual employee.



ZeoTiVo said:


> The reason TiVo is as silent as they are is that you see people jumping on each post they make, parseing the sentences and dissecting each word...


"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" I've done that here and in other forums, and I know you've done that to my posts too. I agree that it's definetly not a nice or "professional"way to respond, but I'm not sure it's something worth arguing about.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

cipher_nemo said:


> When a company or organization makes mistakes and breaks promises (ie: the last update for series 2 and "lifetime membership" that isn't really lifetime membership), the community is bound to get angry and start flames. Nothing new there.


That's a pretty strong statement - I don't think that there were any promises broken over the lifetime deal, before the clarification they gave you a free transfer and after they were pretty clear about it being "product lifetime". The most recent update is a mistake, but who doesn't make mistakes. Tivo has said they are working on it, and I trust that they are as hard as they can. When it's ready, I'm sure we'll see it.

I agree with most everything else you had to say, though.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> The most recent update is a mistake, but who doesn't make mistakes.


The most recent update wasn't a mistake, it was a deliberate. TiVo knew very early on that there were serious problems with 7.3 (what a screwed up pile of bugs that version was) and 7.3.1 yet in their zeal to push out kidzone continued pushing the version out to everyone.

If they are taking heat now for that decision they deserve every bit of it.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

RoyK said:


> The most recent update wasn't a mistake, it was a deliberate. TiVo knew very early on that there were serious problems with 7.3 (what a screwed up pile of bugs that version was) and 7.3.1 yet in their zeal to push out kidzone continued pushing the version out to everyone.


Like I said to Stu_Bee on the last page, that's a pretty bold assertion that I haven't seen backed up by any facts yet.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Like I said to Stu_Bee on the last page, that's a pretty bold assertion that I haven't seen backed up by any facts yet.


I remember that was the case. TiVo knew very well about the issues based on the priority listed people reporting here that there were issues yet they went through with the update anyway. Of course they didn't have a choice since they announced the release in a press conference. To pull back on it would have been embarrassing to them.


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## MoonlitOrchid (Feb 4, 2006)

I got my Tivo yesterday, and everything works great. Unfortunately I had to haul it over to a phone line to get it setup, then back again to get the 7.3 update. I haven't gotten the update cause it's been raining and the connection was crap. Anyone know how long it takes to get this download?


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

GoHokies! said:


> That's a pretty strong statement - I don't think that there were any promises broken over the lifetime deal, before the clarification they gave you a free transfer and after they were pretty clear about it being "product lifetime".


Yes, I probably stretched that statement a bit.  One would have to read the "lifetime membership" fine print clearly to know it's not as simple as its title suggests, and I'd take a guess that many customers thought lifetime of the individual (not the unit) when they heard that.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cipher_nemo said:


> "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" I've done that here and in other forums, and I know you've done that to my posts too. I agree that it's definetly not a nice or "professional"way to respond, but I'm not sure it's something worth arguing about.


Well I was not clear enough on a subjective area. Yes I do parse as well, but I try to keep it to the intent of the post. In your cas I took exception ot "TiVo chose to use DRM" and pulled that apart by showing why they included DRM. In the end the word chose could still be valid but I think your intent with the word was off adn we came around to "TiVo _chose_ to have a product that included DVD adn Cable Cards adn TTG and thus _had_ to have the DRM junk as well."

I just know it is hard for a TiVo employee to post here when they probably have to type out the post and have 2 other people read it first to make sure no other meaning then what they intended could be found. Still our intrepid members will find a way to twist even vauge posts around as we saw here. For me I am not so worried as someone twisting my posts here does not effect my job performance, for the TiVo employees twisted meanings might spawn a life of their own and have to be dealt with or lived with. /. is but a link away 

This twisting is also a reason I do reply to what I disagree with. A lot of people will come here looking for info on TiVo. They desrve to hear it all, the good and the bad, but the wrong they should have replies to so the new reader can better decide what is really going on. Now I do not think that I alone have all the answers a new to TiVo person needs. I can not post first hand about the slow down for instance, but I have been around enough to have a pretty good idea as to how TiVo handles updates and bugs or why the DRM choices were made etc.. so I write what I know adn correct what I think wrong for as much balance as can be had in a public forum about a company that keeps its affairs mostly private.
Thanks for adding your diversity and viewpoint to the forum


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Oh no. Not another discussion on DRM!


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> I remember that was the case. TiVo knew very well about the issues based on the priority listed people reporting here that there were issues yet they went through with the update anyway. Of course they didn't have a choice since they announced the release in a press conference. To pull back on it would have been embarrassing to them.


OK, I think I misunderstood then - I thought that they were saying that they knew there were problems and Tivo started the rollout anyway. That would have been pretty irresponsible, continuing an in-progress rollout is less irresponsible (and we can probably have a hell of a debate over whether they should have continued or not).

Nemo, in the beginning that was true - and to make up for it, lifetime bought before "the clarification" was allowed to be transfered to the new box. After that, Tivo made explicitly sure to refer to it as "product lifetime" and specify it was tied to the box, making it extremely difficult to make that mistake.

(please, no more DRM debates! )


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## cipher_nemo (Mar 25, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> They desrve to hear it all, the good and the bad, but the wrong they should have replies to so the new reader can better decide what is really going on.


Yes, thank you for that. I would of had an incorrect spin on TiVo and DRM had you not explained the reasons TiVo had to do what they did. 



ZeoTiVo said:


> ... so I write what I know adn correct what I think wrong for as much balance as can be had in a public forum about a company that keeps its affairs mostly private. Thanks for adding your diversity and viewpoint to the forum


And thank you for yours. From reading other threads and posts here, I see why you responded the way you did to mine. I would have been even harsher, so thank you.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> For Pete's sake people - you ***** loudly and often about the silence of Tivo in here, then when TP comes in and gives us some inside info all you can do is complain because he didn't say exactly what you wanted him to?


I believe you're off-the-mark, here. My (very politely-made) point, at least, was that it seemed that TiVoPony didn't provide any information in his message. It seems to me that he perhaps didn't say anything at all. I almost felt like a Lost podcast.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> I addition, look at TivoStephen's posts in the recent thread about the new TivoCast things. Despite being berated over and over my many posters, he kept coming back trying to fix the issues that needed to be fixing, and explain the things that couldn't. For this, he continued to get slammed for the way that the TivoCasts work.


Thanks for bringing up that contrast. TiVoStephen has been up-front, direct, and straight-forward. He hasn't crafted word puzzles. :up: We've also had similar interactions recently with some TiVo CSRs -- gems each and every one of them. :up: :up: The impressive level of courtesy and helpfulness my wife and I have gotten from TiVo's CSRs has highlighted, by contrast, the lack thereof we've gotten with regard to technical problems. :down:

We shouldn't be getting this information from these forums anyway -- they should be provided to us over the phone when we call technical support. Up-front, direct and straight-forward.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

angra said:


> I haven't seen a single post from anyone along the lines of "I have the problem. it suck, and my tivo is barely usable, but I am happy to wait with no ETA from tivo until they fix it. you guys should stfu".


I have the problem on one of my Series 2s. It does suck. That TiVo is indeed "barely usable". I schedule recordings exclusively via TCO, and the recordings from that TiVo are viewed exclusively via HMO (transfer to the other S2). So basically, instead of two TiVos, I have, for all practical purposes, one TiVo with a double-sized hard drive.  Watching television on the affected S2 is no longer practicable. Given our situation, with multiple S2s, it is not the end of the world. I can imagine how much more upset I'd be if it was my only TiVo.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

My S2 used to not be affected or was barely affected by the slowdown. Now it is very noticeable. I'm still convinced it has something to do with the VCM connection since every time it says it successfully connected the TiVo slows down as if it has to reload everything into memory every time I take an action. Once it does this things speed somewhat back up again until the next VCM connection 70 minutes later.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

bicker said:


> Thanks for bringing up that contrast. TiVoStephen has been up-front, direct, and straight-forward. He hasn't crafted word puzzles. :up: We've also had similar interactions recently with some TiVo CSRs -- gems each and every one of them. :up: :up: The impressive level of courtesy and helpfulness my wife and I have gotten from TiVo's CSRs has highlighted, by contrast, the lack thereof we've gotten with regard to technical problems. :down:
> 
> We shouldn't be getting this information from these forums anyway -- they should be provided to us over the phone when we call technical support. Up-front, direct and straight-forward.


Unfortunately, Pony isn't able to release the kind of information that you're looking for. So, he says what he can - we can try to read between the lines a little bit, but have to recognize that the level of detail people are asking for just isn't available.

I still think based on his post that we'll be seeing an update very soon - I doubt he would have come in here and said that if there wasn't a firm release date in the near future.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Oh I'm sure we'll see a service update in November. I just have no idea whether TiVo has any intention (even) to address the 7.3/7.3.1 slowdown issues in that service update. Let's hope so.


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## timstack8969 (May 14, 2004)

I noticed that my series 240 single tuner has been taking along time when I change a channel. I'm using the serial port with my DCT 2000. When is a software update coming???


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## mikesay98 (Aug 26, 2006)

I don't know how, but my TiVo has been extremely FAST tonight. It used to be slowed down from the update, but for some reason now it's working better than ever. Hope it lasts!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mikesay98 said:


> I don't know how, but my TiVo has been extremely FAST tonight. It used to be slowed down from the update, but for some reason now it's working better than ever. Hope it lasts!


Maybe it restarted? I restarted mine yesterday and it is blazing fast again. Curiously I also noticed the VCM connections are no longer listing as being successful in the System info screen like they were before the restart. Coincidence?


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