# eSATA + internal upgrade: Any progress?



## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

I hate to start a new thread just to ask but the other threads seem to be wandering off into speculation about the source of the eSATA info and future reliability and such. I'm interested in finding out if anyone's made progress getting an external drive and internal upgrade working together.

From what I can see, adding an eSATA drive and using the kickstart code on a system that's already been upgraded won't work. A couple people have mentioned making it work "by hand" but didn't follow up with any pointers to threads/forums where these manual workarounds are being attempted. Just one link where it's mentioned as being an issue. Is there any more information available in this area?

Has anyone tried adding an eSATA drive to the stock drive, then upgrading the internal drive? I've seen this mentioned as an approach to try but no reports from anyone who's done it.

It's kinda important as I'm ready to order a 1tb drive but I don't want to add it in a way that will eliminate the possibility of future upgrades. I'd prefer to replace the internal drive and keep my tivo setup nice and clean but I don't want to do that if it will prevent me from ever making use of the eSATA port. OTOH, adding it externally isn't really worth the noise/clutter if I wouldn't have the option of later upgrading the internal drive as well.

Basically, if we're stuck with a single upgrade path, I'll stick with 1tb internal rather than 1.25tb combo.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I believe spike2k5 is now working on a new version of MFSTools that will support up to 1Tb (binary) internal plus 1Tb external eSATA.

Some forum members are apparently beta testing it now.


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## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> I believe spike2k5 is now working on a new version of MFSTools that will support up to 1Tb (binary) internal plus 1Tb external eSATA.
> 
> Some forum members are apparently beta testing it now.


[cartman]Sweet.[/cartman]

I'll sit tight for a bit. If I had two big drives in-hand, I'd offer to test but I don't.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

jtown said:


> I hate to start a new thread just to ask but the other threads seem to be wandering off into speculation about the source of the eSATA info and future reliability and such. I'm interested in finding out if anyone's made progress getting an external drive and internal upgrade working together.
> 
> From what I can see, adding an eSATA drive and using the kickstart code on a system that's already been upgraded won't work. A couple people have mentioned making it work "by hand" but didn't follow up with any pointers to threads/forums where these manual workarounds are being attempted. Just one link where it's mentioned as being an issue. Is there any more information available in this area?
> 
> ...


Thanks for starting the thread. I agree, the others have become somewhat hard to read with most posts about the right enclosure, etc. I am also waiting on some info on this as well.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

If they're looking for more testers, I'd certainly be willing. I've got a 750GB DB35 in my S3 and a second 750GB DB35 ready to be plugged into the eSATA port.


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

generaltso said:


> If they're looking for more testers, I'd certainly be willing. I've got a 750GB DB35 in my S3 and a second 750GB DB35 ready to be plugged into the eSATA port.


Try PM'ing spike2k5.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

Will do, thanks.


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## beerkensp (Dec 29, 2003)

If it is a new MFSTools will that allow my current 750Gb drive to be modified to allow ESATA?


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Waiting........


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## wackymann (Sep 22, 2006)

I am waiting (im?)patiently too. I would LOVE to add another 750 GB or 1 TB drive to the 750 GB I already have inside my S3, but I won't do it until we have a rock solid implementation. My box is running so well, I wouldn't think of doing anything to it that hasn't been well tested by others. Kudos to all the beta testers out there!!


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## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

Waiting less and less patiently. Already missed a chance to buy the 1tb drive for $399 out the door from PC Connection. (They're out of stock now and raised the price.) Now I'm going on vacation in a month and I'd really like to know which way I should do the first upgrade. I really don't care if I should do the first phase internal or external. I just want to make sure I don't upgrade myself out of a future expansion.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Think of it this way, spike2k5 is saving you money. There is little to record over the summer, and drive prices will no doubt be less in a few months once the seagate and wd 1tb drives are out.


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## rudolpht (Mar 8, 2003)

I would like to get mine working before the 6x Star Wars movies on Cinemax and HBO. I already have it on internal upgrade but it would be piece of mind to have on both. As I bought my 750GB pre-installed, I have to admit I'm pretty trepidatious about screwing with the main internal (I did get the tools etc working on DirecTivo but it was kludge city).


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## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

sfhub said:


> Think of it this way, spike2k5 is saving you money. There is little to record over the summer, and drive prices will no doubt be less in a few months once the seagate and wd 1tb drives are out.


Actually cost me money. PC Connection raised their price after selling out of their first shipment.  It's going to be a while before these drives can easily be found for MSRP.

FYI, I sent a PM earlier asking whether to make the first upgrade internal or eSATA and was told that upgrading the internal drive first and adding eSATA later is a good upgrade path.

That's what I prefer so I'm happy. A little more work since I'll have to copy/expand my original drive but I won't have to worry about external cables. Now to find the drive for less than $450...


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

jtown said:


> It's going to be a while before these drives can easily be found for MSRP.


Best Buy is selling at MSRP. Just wait until they have it in stock. There are various other places willing to sell below MSRP once higher availability starts up. Price competition will start once the other 1tb drives are out. I can virtually guarantee in the next 2 months you will be able to get the Hitachi below MSRP.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8295588&st=1tb&type=product&id=1172880158065


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## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

Best Buy adds tax and shipping. That's another $37.50 on top. Worth it if they had it in stock but not for backorder. I found that PC Connection lists the OEM version at $398.40 no tax, free shipping. The wait time's a bit longer but I'll wait and save a little money.

For those who need it right now, TigerDirect lists the OEM version for $450 plus shipping. About $475 delivered ground. (Yes, the shipping charge is outrageous for ground.)


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

rudolpht said:


> I already have it on internal upgrade but it would be piece of mind to have on both.


I believe that if the internal drive dies, the content on the external drive would be useless.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Because, you know, you couldn't buy the drive and let it sit on a shelf until this works one day...


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

jtown said:


> Actually cost me money. PC Connection raised their price after selling out of their first shipment.  It's going to be a while before these drives can easily be found for MSRP.


Who stopped you from buying the drive?


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## rudolpht (Mar 8, 2003)

c3 said:


> I believe that if the internal drive dies, the content on the external drive would be useless.


That is an excellent point I never thought of. Why bother. I guess I'll hang out with my unwrapped Appian (considering returning).

Seriously, thanks.


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## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

generaltso said:


> Who stopped you from buying the drive?


I was waiting for a large deposit refund from a landlord who hadn't said a word since I moved out. Guy waited until the last possible day to say, "check's in the mail".

At the same time, eSATA dropped into the mix. I didn't see any point in spending money immediately when I'd just leave the drive sitting in the box while waiting for word on options for double-expansion. I also wanted to see the results of a SATA RAID on the external port to verify the 1tb per channel limit.

I also wanted to read some reviews to determine whether the drive would be too noisy. Since they announced a "CinemaStar" version, I wanted to verify that the DeskStar line would support AMM.

By the time I got my check, was confident that double-expansion was possible, and read a couple reviews, the drive was sold out. It only took a couple of days but I'd waited too long. Now I have the OEM version on order.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

jtown said:


> I was waiting for a large deposit refund from a landlord who hadn't said a word since I moved out. Guy waited until the last possible day to say, "check's in the mail".
> 
> At the same time, eSATA dropped into the mix. I didn't see any point in spending money immediately when I'd just leave the drive sitting in the box while waiting for word on options for double-expansion. I also wanted to see the results of a SATA RAID on the external port to verify the 1tb per channel limit.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you had your reasons for not buying the drive. But I don't think it's fair to say that anyone was "costing you money."

Upgrade your internal drive first. There will eventually be instructions for adding an external drive.


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## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

generaltso said:


> Sounds like you had your reasons for not buying the drive. But I don't think it's fair to say that anyone was "costing you money."


Are you serious? It was a joke. That's what the smiley face was for.

Some people really need to lighten up.


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## GooberMan (May 21, 2007)

I have a 750gb internal drive on order and will order the S3 Sunday with the rebate. The drive already has Tivo software on it. Is it as simple as opening the case and swapping the drives or is this a more complicated procedure?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

That's it. Unscrew the Torx screws, unscrew the old drive from the frame, plug in the new drive to the power and data cable, screw everthing back together and you are done. I would do it in about 10 minutes. If you got the preformatted drive from weaknees, they will give you the torx wrench.

Really. No big deal- you can't plug the cables in bass ackwards because they are shaped so that they can only be plugged in one way.

In the S2's the only gotcha was that you could bump the white ribbon going to the front panel. Haven't heard of any similar gotcha's for S3s, but read the instructions for any such warnings.


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## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

Do the swap before you get the cablecards installed. The code used by the cablecards to identify your device may (will?) change when you make the swap if you use a pre-imaged hard drive. It won't affect the S3's subscription to the Tivo service, though, just the cablecards. You can hook up the S3, try it out, make sure everything works, activate your tivo subscription, etc. before making the swap. Just don't get the cablecards installed until after you make the swap.

That's my understanding, anyway, and I could be wrong. There's more info in the S3 upgrade threads.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Depends on how you do the install. OP didn't really mention. If you copy the image from the existing drive that paired the CableCARDs, then everything will be fine. If you use a different image, there is a chance the Data # used for pairing purposes could get regenerated.


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## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

GooberMan said:


> The drive already has Tivo software on it.


As he stated, it's one of those drop-in replacements.


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## rudolpht (Mar 8, 2003)

Any news? Send back the Appian?


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

sfhub said:


> Depends on how you do the install. OP didn't really mention. If you copy the image from the existing drive that paired the CableCARDs, then everything will be fine. If you use a different image, there is a chance the Data # used for pairing purposes could get regenerated.


IIRC, if you do a "clear and delete all" the drive will pick up the data from the motherboard so it generates the same cable card numbers as the original drive.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Gregor said:


> IIRC, if you do a "clear and delete all" the drive will pick up the data from the motherboard so it generates the same cable card numbers as the original drive.


I've done this a couple times now, and a C&DE (which is required anyway if it's not a backup from that machine) works fine. At least for my Comcast/Moto cards, and I imagine all CC's.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

AbMagFab said:


> I've done this a couple times now, and a C&DE (which is required anyway if it's not a backup from that machine) works fine. At least for my Comcast/Moto cards, and I imagine all CC's.


Works fine in what sense? If you look at the CableCARD pairing screen there will be 3 #s that are important for Motorola cards, CableCARD ID, Host ID, and Data.

The CableCARD and Host IDs stay the same, but the Data portion gets regenerated for certain situations (new CableCARDs, swapping CableCARDs, Clear & Delete Everything)

If the Data portion changes, your pairing is broken until you update the cable company.

Whether you notice if the pairing is broken depends on whether your cable company has enabled copy protection (ie non-zero CCI values) Copy protection is something the cable company can enable *in addition to* the regular encryption of shows, but not all areas have it enabled.

If your CCI values are all zeros, then the pairing is not that important in the short run. You can swap CableCARD from slot 1/2, you can even swap CableCARDs between different S3s, your TVs, etc. It all just works even though the pairing is broken.

However, this leads to many folks mistakenly thinking there is no problem with Clear & Delete Everything, because copy protection hasn't been enabled yet and they don't notice any problems. One day the cable company enables copy protection and suddenly they lose access to Showtime, Cinemax, etc.

This happened to many folks in the SF Bay Area and there is a whole thread about people trying to get the pairing fixed. Sometimes it is a 15 minute procedure, sometimes it is a multi-week ordeal with multiple truck rolls. It just depends who you get on the phone.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Gregor said:


> IIRC, if you do a "clear and delete all" the drive will pick up the data from the motherboard so it generates the same cable card numbers as the original drive.


I've only seen reports to the contrary(one here) : "Clear and delete all" resets the cable slots as well (and I think you want it to), so you will get a new "Data" number when you next use the slots.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

sfhub said:


> Works fine in what sense?


Works fine in the sense that I've now done 3 C&DE on two different drives, and the CC's get reauthorized and I get all my digital and HD premium channels.

That's what "works fine" generally means.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

AbMagFab said:


> Works fine in the sense that I've now done 3 C&DE on two different drives, and the CC's get reauthorized and I get all my digital and HD premium channels.
> 
> That's what "works fine" generally means.


Does the Host Validation in the Conditional Access page say "Valid"?

As has been mentioned, being able to view your channels is not the same thing as having your CableCARDs properly paired. This can lead folks to the wrong conclusion.

"Works fine" is ambiguous. Paired properly with Host Validation "Valid" is much clearer.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

sfhub said:


> Does the Host Validation in the Conditional Access page say "Valid"?
> 
> As has been mentioned, being able to view your channels is not the same thing as having your CableCARDs properly paired. This can lead folks to the wrong conclusion.
> 
> "Works fine" is ambiguous. Paired properly with Host Validation "Valid" is much clearer.


I won't be at my TV any time soon, but what difference does it make if all my channels come in and I can record them, and play back old recordings?


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> I won't be at my TV any time soon, but what difference does it make if all my channels come in and I can record them, and play back old recordings?


It makes a difference if your cable company suddenly turns on copy protection, like Comcast has done in several market areas (Denver, SF Bay area are the two I've seen referenced on here). It will go from working fine, to not working on whatever channels have copy protection. If your cable company thinks they've properly paired the cards at install time, they won't have any qualms about suddenly turning it on. And, if this happens at the start of a 2-week vacation, then you're SOL.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> I won't be at my TV any time soon, but what difference does it make if all my channels come in and I can record them, and play back old recordings?


It makes no difference for you at the moment (besides making your life much easier!), but it makes a difference in whether the lessons from your experiences will be true for others in this forum. My local franchise does not pair the cards and hosts at the moment (ie, they don't use the "data" field), so I can move the cablecards between slots and between equipment. I would have no problem with a C&DE. But as reported, that's not true for most (?) people out out there.

Is anybody buying Father's Day S3 in an area that they know doesn't pair? Would you be willing to do a C&DE on your new TiVo after getting cablecards, writing down all the cablecards numbers (but especially the "data" field) both before and after the C&DE?


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## spike2k5 (Feb 21, 2006)

Method #2 is released (published) in case anyone is waiting for it.

(expanded internal drive + eSATA)

You will have to pull your internal drive and hook it upto a computer along with an eSATA drive.

Get the boot cd from mfslive.org


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## URPREY (Sep 12, 2003)

spike2k5 said:


> Method #2 is out in case anyone is waiting for it.
> 
> expanded internal drive + eSATA.
> 
> ...


When I first read your post I thought you meant "out" as in wasn't going to be available, crossed off the list, etc 

After the third time I read it I understood that you meant that the method was available for download.

Nice job!


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## spike2k5 (Feb 21, 2006)

URPREY said:


> When I first read your post I thought you meant "out" as in wasn't going to be available, crossed off the list, etc
> 
> After the third time I read it I understood that you meant that the method was available for download.
> 
> Nice job!


Sorry about the confusion. Out as in came out.

My finger can't keep up with I'm thinking.


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## URPREY (Sep 12, 2003)

spike2k5 said:


> Sorry about the confusion. Out as in came out.
> 
> My finger can't keep up with I'm thinking.


No worries. I'm sure you've just made plenty of people very happy


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

spike2k5 said:


> Method #2 is released (published) in case anyone is waiting for it...


So, who has the first 262HD/2,488SD hour S3?


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## spike2k5 (Feb 21, 2006)

jlib said:


> So, who has the first 262HD/2,488SD hour S3?


2TB is the record record on S3.

[edit] this is 1.5 TB #
198HD hours, 1878 SD hours

[new]
2TB #
265HD 2513 SD hours

That honor goes to one of the beta tester.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

spike2k5 said:


> 2TB is the record record on S3.
> 198HD hours, 1878 SD hours
> 
> That honor goes to one of the beta tester.


That sounds more like 1.5TB capacity.

Why is the difference from 1.0TB -> 2.0TB just 67 hours?


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## spike2k5 (Feb 21, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> That sounds more like 1.5TB capacity.
> 
> Why is the difference from 1.0TB -> 2.0TB just 67 hours?


Sorry. Wrong numbers.

2TB
265HD, 2513 SD hours.


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## deeremj (Feb 25, 2001)

I am running a dual 750gb and dual 1tb s3 for last 4 days using the method outlined by spike2k5, running great so far.

The dual 750gb is with db-35's, esata is in mx-1 enclosure.

I went a different route on the dual 1tb expansion by re-routing the internal sata port to an external adapter and have both drives in single esata fan cooled enclosure from owc(macsales.com) as follows:

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/MESATATBEK/

I had to use the acoustic management on the 1tb drives to get greatly reduced seek noise.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

deeremj said:


> I am running a dual 750gb and dual 1tb s3 for last 4 days using the method outlined by spike2k5, running great so far.
> 
> The dual 750gb is with db-35's, esata is in mx-1 enclosure.
> 
> ...


Pictures, please?


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## wgw (May 16, 2007)

deeremj said:


> I went a different route on the dual 1tb expansion by re-routing the internal sata port to an external adapter and have both drives in single esata fan cooled enclosure


Excellent idea. No need to open Tivo again to access drive and it probably keeps the internal drive cooler than leaving it in the Tivo case. Is the fan pretty good quality?


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## jetjock34 (Sep 28, 2006)

May you Programing Gods forgive me... but.... sure wish the method for an already upgraded series 3 was as easy as the method for the non-upgraded. Any chance in the futute there will be a fix for those of us not quite as competant?


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## jetjock34 (Sep 28, 2006)

deeremj said:


> I am running a dual 750gb and dual 1tb s3 for last 4 days using the method outlined by spike2k5, running great so far.
> 
> The dual 750gb is with db-35's, esata is in mx-1 enclosure.
> 
> ...


I second the motion.... pictures and/or step by step instuctions... PLESAE


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

Just so I understand...

I have a Tivo S3 with a 750GB DB35 internal drive (and I want to preserve those recordings).

I bought an Antec MX-1 external eSata enclosure and I plan on buying another 750GB DB35 for it. So in the end I will have an internal 750GB and an external 750GB.

So all I have to do is connect the original internal S3 drive to a PC via SATA and make sure it is on /dev/sda and connect the other 750GB drive that is going to be in the external enclosure and make sure it is /dev/sdb, boot the MFSLive CD (my CD-ROM drive is connected to the IDE port on my PC) and just run this command

mfsadd -r 4 -ex /dev/sda /dev/sdb

Then when that is done all I will have to do is plug the internal Tivo S3 back in the Tivo, put the new 750GB drive in the enclosure and connect it to the Tivo S3 and turn everthing on and I will be good to go? And I will still have all the original recordings that were on my internal drive still?

Do I have that right?


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

George Cifranci said:


> Just so I understand...


Well, the docs for the MSLive S3 Method 2  says nothing about "original drive" so depending upon what you mean by that you might be reading more into the technique than is there. Your internal 750GB drive needs to be introduced to your new external drive. Just follow the method verbatim. If by original you meant current then it looks like you have it down pat!


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## rudolpht (Mar 8, 2003)

jlib said:


> Well, the docs for the MSLive S3 Method 2  says nothing about "original drive" so depending upon what you mean by that you might be reading more into the technique than is there. Your internal 750GB drive needs to be introduced to your new external drive. Just follow the method verbatim. If by original you meant current then it looks like you have it down pat!


My internal 750GB drive is my original drive (bought that way), I assume that's what was meant and I'm in the same boat.


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

George Cifranci said:



> Just so I understand...
> 
> I have a Tivo S3 with a 750GB DB35 internal drive (and I want to preserve those recordings).
> 
> ...


Worked for me...that's exactly what I did, and when I turned it back on, all recordings (from the original 750gb) were there and the S3 reported 198HD hours available. And the beauty is that the mfsadd operation takes all of about 1/3 of a second to execute.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

George Cifranci said:


> Just so I understand...
> 
> I have a Tivo S3 with a 750GB DB35 internal drive (and I want to preserve those recordings).
> 
> ...


Yes.

Also, they don't have to be /sda and /sdb, they can be anything. Just make sure you do the mfsadd order properly.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

jlib said:


> Well, the docs for the MSLive S3 Method 2  says nothing about "original drive" so depending upon what you mean by that you might be reading more into the technique than is there. Your internal 750GB drive needs to be introduced to your new external drive. Just follow the method verbatim. If by original you meant current then it looks like you have it down pat!


Not sure whay subtle point you're making, but it works with any currently working internal drive. Whether that's already upgraded or not.


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

Sweetness! Thanks!

Anyone want to recommend a good place to buy a vanilla 750GB Seagate DB35 for my eSata enclosure? I bought my internal one from Weaknees but they are expensive.

Has anyone bought from thenerds.net ?

http://www.thenerds.net/SEAGATE_HDD...WARRANTY_THIS_IS_A_CE_DRIVE.ST3750840SCE.html

They have them for about $281


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> Not sure whay subtle point you're making, but it works with any currently working internal drive. Whether that's already upgraded or not.


http://www.mfslive.org/tivofaq.htm says:

"...
it does simple check in the MFS superblock and see if the internal drive is factory original.
If it is not, it will terminate the marriage process, reset the flag and goes on as if marriage never took place. 
..."


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## slimm (Sep 19, 2003)

George Cifranci said:


> Sweetness! Thanks!
> 
> Anyone want to recommend a good place to buy a vanilla 750GB Seagate DB35 for my eSata enclosure? I bought my internal one from Weaknees but they are expensive.
> 
> ...


I bought mine from them some time ago. Fast shipping and no problems.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

vstone said:


> http://www.mfslive.org/tivofaq.htm says:
> 
> "...
> it does simple check in the MFS superblock and see if the internal drive is factory original.
> ...


That part of the FAQ is referring to using the kickstart code. In that case, if you have an upgraded internal drive, the kickstart code won't work, and the FAQ specifically says to use mfsadd (which AbMagFab correctly noted can be used with any internal drive, including the upgraded drive).


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

TexasAg said:


> That part of the FAQ is referring to using the kickstart code. In that case, if you have an upgraded internal drive, the kickstart code won't work, and the FAQ specifically says to use mfsadd (which AbMagFab correctly noted can be used with any internal drive, including the upgraded drive).


My bad. I thought the thread had drifted to the point where somebody was saying that kickstart 62 would work on an upgraded drive. I reread the thread. I was wrong. I think the discussion about an 'original drive' that was 750GB and therefore not really the original drive led me off track.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

vstone said:


> http://www.mfslive.org/tivofaq.htm says:
> 
> "...
> it does simple check in the MFS superblock and see if the internal drive is factory original.
> ...


Wow, talk about "out of context".

That text explains why the *kickstart* method doesn't work with an already upgraded internal drive.

MFSLIVE works with any internal drive, original or not, which is what the poster was basically asking, and what this entire thread is about. Your point just isn't applicable.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> Wow, talk about "out of context".
> 
> That text explains why the *kickstart* method doesn't work with an already upgraded internal drive.
> 
> MFSLIVE works with any internal drive, original or not, which is what the poster was basically asking, and what this entire thread is about. Your point just isn't applicable.


I guess admitting I was wrong and led myself off track wasn't enough for you.

Have a nice day.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

vstone said:


> I guess admitting I was wrong and led myself off track wasn't enough for you.
> 
> Have a nice day.


Methinks someone didn't read the posts on page 3 before responding to the post on page 2.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

TexasAg said:


> Methinks someone didn't read the posts on page 3 before responding to the post on page 2.


I considered that since I've done that myself, but I assume that he eventually finished reading the thread after he posted and had the opportunity to edit his message. I could be wrong (but it does no good to admit it!  )


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## jetjock34 (Sep 28, 2006)

George Cifranci said:


> Just so I understand...
> 
> I have a Tivo S3 with a 750GB DB35 internal drive (and I want to preserve those recordings).
> 
> ...


Not being picky but I'm not experienced and just want to make sure it's an oversite versus correct before i try this.... should the line in MFSlive be

mfsadd -ex -r 4 /dev/sda /dev/sdb

versus what is stated above?


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

jetjock34 said:


> Not being picky but I'm not experienced and just want to make sure it's an oversite versus correct before i try this.... should the line in MFSlive be
> 
> mfsadd -ex -r 4 /dev/sda /dev/sdb
> 
> versus what is stated above?


They are both the same thing. Main thing is to make sure you have the drive letters right. It doesn't matter what they are, just that they are the existing and additional drives.


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## jetjock34 (Sep 28, 2006)

One last question for the incompetent...

The two drives, A (internal to tivo) and B(new, external) are to be connected to my computer how? The "old" Tivo internal drive (A) is removed from the Tivo and then connected to the computer via the esata bracket? Now, how is the new (B) drive connected?


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

jetjock34 said:


> One last question for the incompetent...


 Ahem... 



> The two drives, A (internal to tivo) and B(new, external) are to be connected to my computer how? The "old" Tivo internal drive (A) is removed from the Tivo and then connected to the computer via the esata bracket? Now, how is the new (B) drive connected?


Your computer must either have built-in SATA capability on the motherboard (all new PCs) or if an older PC with the wide flat cables then you need to obtain a card for a PCI slot in the computer to provide the SATA interface. So, just remove any SATA cables to your PC's current drives (if present) since the PC's harddisks are not needed for the procedure and attach the SATA cables to the bare TiVo drives (you can lay them loose if you can get power to them). If your PC has an eSATA bracket as you mention it is usually connected to an internal SATA port. You could use that with the external drive if you wanted since you already have an eSATA cable.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

You don't actually need to remove the S3's internal drive to do this. You can take the cover of the S3 off and unplug the SATA cable connected to the internal hard drive. There is enough room to attach the internal hard drive to your computer's SATA cable (if you have a long enough SATA cable). I did, so this saved some time.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

TexasAg said:


> You don't actually need to remove the S3's internal drive to do this. You can take the cover of the S3 off and unplug the SATA cable connected to the internal hard drive. There is enough room to attach the internal hard drive to your computer's SATA cable (if you have a long enough SATA cable). I did, so this saved some time.


You would also need a long enough power cable because TiVo has a combined power+data connector.


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## rudolpht (Mar 8, 2003)

jlib said:


> Ahem...
> You could use that with the external drive if you wanted since you already have an eSATA cable.


You can Ahem me too 

So you could go eSata from the motherboard to the external (no need to crack open an Appian) as 2nd Sata drive & just pop the top of the HD Tivo (unpowered of course) and connect that to the drive still in the unit?

Boot the ISO & execute command line.

Sounds like this Monkey can probably do it.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

rudolpht said:


> So you could go eSata from the motherboard to the external (no need to crack open an Appian) as 2nd Sata drive & just pop the top of the HD Tivo (unpowered of course) and connect that to the drive still in the unit?


Except the original poster mentioned he had an eSATA bracket on his PC which would mean you could directly connect the eSATA cable to the external port on the bracket and to your Appian enclosure. Going directly to the SATA port on the motherboard from the Appian is a different story because SATA and eSATA have different and incompatible connectors (although the signals are very similar). So, unless you have one of those eSATA brackets on your PC that transform the SATA connector on the motherboard to an external eSATA port or in the unlikely event you have an eSATA to SATA cable lying around then you will need to open the Appian, remove the bare drive and go SATA to SATA to the motherboard.


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## rudolpht (Mar 8, 2003)

jlib said:


> Except the original poster mentioned he had an eSATA bracket on his PC which would mean you could directly connect the eSATA cable to the external port on the bracket and to your Appian enclosure. Going directly to the SATA port on the motherboard from the Appian is a different story because SATA and eSATA have different and incompatible connectors (although the signals are very similar). So, unless you have one of those eSATA brackets on your PC that transform the SATA connector on the motherboard to an external eSATA port or in the unlikely event you have an eSATA to SATA cable lying around then you will need to open the Appian, remove the bare drive and go SATA to SATA to the motherboard.


Thanks for clarification, appreciated.

If only there was a USB key method to marry the drives w/o busting apart either enclosure, now that would be cool.


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

jwehman said:


> Worked for me...that's exactly what I did, and when I turned it back on, all recordings (from the original 750gb) were there and the S3 reported 198HD hours available. And the beauty is that the mfsadd operation takes all of about 1/3 of a second to execute.


Sweet! I got mine installed last night. Pretty easy. I put my new 750GB Seagate DB35 in the Antec MX-1 eSATA enclosure and connected it to my PC via the USB port and then I opened my Tivo S3 and put it next to my PC and connected a SATA cable and power from my PC to the 750GB Seagate that is in my S3, disconnected any other SATA drives in my PC, booted the MFSLive CD, confirmed which drive was which device (the internal Tivo S3 drive was /dev/sda and the drive in the MX-1 enclosure was /dev/sdb and I ran the mfsadd command, it appeared to run successfully. I then connected everything back the way it was, connected the MX-1 to the Tivo S3 via eSATA, powered it on, powered on the Tivo S3 and then when it booted up confirmed that I now have 198 hours of HD recording! Saweeeeet!!


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## GooberMan (May 21, 2007)

George Cifranci said:


> confirmed which drive was which device QUOTE]
> How did you do this part? What's the command?


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## GooberMan (May 21, 2007)

I ordered an eSATA to eSATA cable but am planning to use my PC's internal SATA ports to do the MFSLIVE procedure. Will the eSATA cable work in a SATA port? (My PC has SATA ports but no SATA drives so I don't have a SATA cable.)


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

GooberMan said:


> George Cifranci said:
> 
> 
> > confirmed which drive was which device QUOTE]
> ...


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

GooberMan said:


> I ordered an eSATA to eSATA cable but am planning to use my PC's internal SATA ports to do the MFSLIVE procedure. Will the eSATA cable work in a SATA port? (My PC has SATA ports but no SATA drives so I don't have a SATA cable.)


No, an E-Sata cable is keyed differently than an older std SATA port (more precisely, there is no key on the E-SATA, whereas there is a key, a little "elbow", on std SATA).

Rgds,

jwehman


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## GooberMan (May 21, 2007)

jwehman said:


> No, an E-Sata cable is keyed differently than an older std SATA port (more precisely, there is no key on the E-SATA, whereas there is a key, a little "elbow", on std SATA).
> 
> Rgds,
> 
> jwehman


Okay, so I'll have to get a SATA cable for the internal Tivo drive. The eSATA enclosure I ordered also has USB so I can use USB to connect it to my PC. Since SATA and USB both use "sd," how will I tell which is "sda" and which is "sdb"?


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

GooberMan said:


> Okay, so I'll have to get a SATA cable for the internal Tivo drive. The eSATA enclosure I ordered also has USB so I can use USB to connect it to my PC. Since SATA and USB both use "sd," how will I tell which is "sda" and which is "sdb"?


On my PC the drive I connected to the internal SATA port was named /dev/sda and the drive in the external enclosure (that I connected via USB) was /dev/sdb. I disconnected all other drives connected to my PC to avoid confusion. I then booted the MFSLive 1.2 CD.

You can also type the command pdisk -l /dev/sda and as I recall it came up with info that mentioned "Apple" (since Tivo uses an Apple partition map). I remembered that and so deduced that the drive connected to /dev/sda was indeed my internal Tivo S3 drive. The other drive (my new external drive which was blank and unformatted) was /dev/sdb. I then ran the

mfsadd -ex -r 4 /dev/sda /dev/sdb

command which took just a moment. Then shutdown the computer and connected the internal Tivo S3 drive back up. Connected the eSata drive and powered it on. Then connected up and powered on the Tivo S3. After it boots up go into the System Information page and confirm how much recording time you have. I have two 750GB drives so I have 198 hours of HD (and 1878 hours SD as I recall).


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## jetjock34 (Sep 28, 2006)

George.... you seem to have gotten this down pat so I ask that you clear upa couple of things for me.

My computer does not have a SATA port. I will buy a pci card that will provide an esata connection.

I connect the series 3 internal drive to computer throught this esata port. Leave the series 3 unplugged(?). Connect the new drive/enclosure to the computers usb port.
Put the bootable cd in the cdrom drive. turn on computer which should boot from the cdrom drive......and run the previously mentioned command?


Correct? Or is there something else or something incorrect?

Thanks for your help!!!


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

jetjock34 said:


> ...My computer does not have a SATA port. I will buy a pci card that will provide an esata connection.
> 
> I connect the series 3 internal drive to computer throught this esata port...


Remember, though, that the bare internal drive has a regular SATA connection. If you wanted to connect it to the external eSATA port on the new card you would need an uncommon SATA to eSATA cable. Perhaps your card also comes with internal SATA connections (and hopefully an included SATA to SATA cable). In any case, you need a way to go from the SATA connection on the drive to the new card via a cable of some sort.


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## HaloBox (Oct 1, 2006)

jlib said:


> Remember, though, that the bare internal drive has a regular SATA connection. If you wanted to connect it to the external eSATA port on the new card you would need an uncommon SATA to eSATA cable. Perhaps your card also comes with internal SATA connections (and hopefully an included SATA to SATA cable). In any case, you need a way to go from the SATA connection on the drive to the new card via a cable of some sort.


I get my cables from http://www.satacables.com/ or monoprice.com. They have whatever you need.


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## jetjock34 (Sep 28, 2006)

Some of the PCI cards have one or more external esata ports and one or more internal SATA ports. I guess I will get one of those. 

How about for power purposes? Does/do the ports provide power to the drive or do I need to figure out how to power them. (I'm assuming the new drive connected via usb will have a power cord which plugs into an outlet.... what about the one in the tivo.. do I power up the tivo or does the port provide power... or some other way?)

Thanks


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

jetjock34 said:


> ...How about for power purposes? Does/do the ports provide power to the drive or do I need to figure out how to power them...


That is another consideration. There is no power on the data cable. Some newer SATA drives have dropped the old 4 pin power connector we are all used to. Since your PC doesn't have SATA on the motherboard it is not likely to have SATA power connectors either but check to be sure. It may have a more modern power supply. If just the old style 4 pin connectors you will need to get a 4 pin to 15 pin SATA power adapter cable.

Also, if you buy a SATA card that says OEM in the description it usually does not include a SATA data cable. If it says retail box it usually will. Read the description carefully.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

I do not have a SATA-ready PC. Can any of this be handled with 2 external USB drives that will accept a SATA hard drive?


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## spike2k5 (Feb 21, 2006)

larrs said:


> I do not have a SATA-ready PC. Can any of this be handled with 2 external USB drives that will accept a SATA hard drive?


Yes.


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## jetjock34 (Sep 28, 2006)

Just plug both into a usb port, power them up, boot the computer with the aforementioned bootable cd, and run the command line??????


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## jetjock34 (Sep 28, 2006)

Please note..... the above is a question.

Thanks


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

jetjock34 said:


> Just plug both into a usb port, power them up, boot the computer with the aforementioned bootable cd, and run the command line??????


WooHoo.

Great thanks. I have two external cases that take SATA and USB!


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## jetjock34 (Sep 28, 2006)

Sorry... I was asking the question... not telling you it would work. I need the answer also. I problem I see is that the drive already in the TIVO may not be usb capable. Was not an issue when I purchased it so odds are it is not. 

Can anyone verify the abbreviated procedure I attempted to summarize (as a question) above?


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## spike2k5 (Feb 21, 2006)

> Just plug both into a usb port, power them up, boot the computer with the aforementioned bootable cd, and run the command line??????


Internal drive itself does not have an usb port, so you will need an usb to sata adapter.
If you have an eSATA drive that also has an usb port, you can hook it up that way.


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## jetjock34 (Sep 28, 2006)

and lastly, how do I power the tivo's drive? (assuming that I don't power up the tivo)

Thanks


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

jetjock34 said:


> Sorry... I was asking the question... not telling you it would work. I need the answer also. I problem I see is that the drive already in the TIVO may not be usb capable. Was not an issue when I purchased it so odds are it is not.
> 
> Can anyone verify the abbreviated procedure I attempted to summarize (as a question) above?


 OK exsperts, I have the internal Drive (uograded 500GB) and a 750 GB drive in an external enclosure that does USB and eSata. I also have a second enclosure that I can use for the internal drive. How do I do this? How to tell which is A and which is B?


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

larrs said:


> ...I have the internal Drive (uograded 500GB) and a 750 GB drive in an external enclosure that does USB and eSata. I also have a second enclosure that I can use for the internal drive. How do I do this? How to tell which is A and which is B?


If both enclosures are USB that is doable. The command _cat /proc/partitions_ should give you the info you need to discern which drive is which if they are different sizes.


George Cifranci said:


> You can also type the command pdisk -l /dev/sda and as I recall it came up with info that mentioned "Apple" (since Tivo uses an Apple partition map). I remembered that and so deduced that the drive connected to /dev/sda was indeed my internal Tivo S3 drive...


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

jlib said:


> If both enclosures are USB that is doable. The command cat /proc/partitions should give you the info you need to discern which drive is which if they are different sizes.


Thanks, I'll give it a try this weekend.


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## wackymann (Sep 22, 2006)

What if both of your drives are identical? I have 2 750 GB Seagate DB35s - same exact make/model. How can I figure out which is the old drive and which is the new?


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

Use the pdisk method George Cifranci mentioned. It shows what kind of partition is on the drive.


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## wackymann (Sep 22, 2006)

jlib said:


> Use the pdisk method George Cifranci mentioned. It shows what kind of partition is on the drive.


Thanks - hopefully I'll get figure this stuff out tonight. I'm anxious to get my 1.5 TB Tivo up and running! 200 hours will be amazing.


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## Lupin (Apr 3, 2007)

This thread just popped up when I was getting ready to post with a similar topic, any update on this? And is there a real reason why I shouldn't just fork over $200 for the official one from WD?


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

Lupin said:


> This thread just popped up when I was getting ready to post with a similar topic, any update on this? And is there a real reason why I shouldn't just fork over $200 for the official one from WD?


It works using MFS Tools if that is what you mean. I have a 750GB internal drive in my Series 3 and I added another 750GB drive in a Antec MX-1 enclosure as well. The official eSata drive is only 500GB I think. You can get MFSTools here http://www.mfslive.org/


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## Lupin (Apr 3, 2007)

Right, but I thought the point of this thread was about TivoHD for some reason not allowing you to have an upgraded internal drive and an eSATA one. And, yes its only 500GB but the price in and of itself is normal and having 80 hours of HD video is more then enough for me. I was really asking more about like speed or reliability compared to internal.


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## wackymann (Sep 22, 2006)

Internal is generally more reliable... My Antec/Seagate external gave me nothing but problems when it was hooked up to my Tivo (lots of "green screens of death"), so I divorced it and use it as a TTG/TTCB drive. It's been solid as a rock for that, and it still frees up disk space on my Tivo drive, so it's pretty much serving the same purpose I originally intended. I have a 750 internal and it is more than enough now that I can get shows off of it onto my PC.


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## Lupin (Apr 3, 2007)

Ok, so Im assuming that even on the Tivo HD you can use an upgraded internal in combination with an eSATA?


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## chipbandit (May 15, 2007)

I have a series 3 tivo and the 250gig internal hard drive is bad.
I also have a wd tivo 1tb expander
i have a computer that is esata and sata capable 
i have winmfstools
i am going to buy a Western Digital 1 TB AV-GP SATA OEM AV Hard Drive WD10EVDS to replace the origianl 250gig tivo hard drive.
i did manage to back up my tivo 250gig drive so i have that

now my questions is this i hook the new WD10EVDS and restore the tivo image to that drive. i think i need some software to fix the intellipark feature of this drive as well but i don't know what i need for this?
after i get the WD10EVDS restored and expanded how do i merry the wd tivo expander to it?
and what is the procedure for divorcing the the two drives and reconnecting them if i should ever need to do that?

I am not worried about loosing any programs so that is not an issue


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## moxie1617 (Jan 5, 2004)

chipbandit said:


> I have a series 3 tivo and the 250gig internal hard drive is bad.
> I also have a wd tivo 1tb expander
> i have a computer that is esata and sata capable
> i have winmfstools
> ...


Everything you need to know is in the 1st post of the sticky at the top of this forum http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5616160#post5616160

Click on the Internal Upgrade tab and it should take you to Section V. Good luck on your upgrade.


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