# Taken the plunge... but do I have to stop using my Tivo....???



## frodott (Jul 2, 2005)

Guys - I need some guidance. I've had my Tivo box for several years now and am more than delighted with it - but this weekend I've taken the plunge and purchased an HD system and a sky plus box (300Mb)... yes I am the last of the big spenders... but I am now wondering what to do with my fantastic Tivo. I'm currently paying Sky £10 per month to handle the scheduling info pulled off by the Tivo each night. This seems a little silly given the fact I'm going to also be paying them £10 to offer the same (and more) additional services delivered to the HD box.

So to get to the crunch - is it possible to use my Tivo as a freeview digital recorder and to use the schedules currently being used by freeview services (for free)?

Pvt msgs most welcome.

Otherwise - I have a 400Gb Tivo with a 512Mb Cachecard for sale... TWP updated with lots of Thomas the Tank engine, Stargate and a whole load more!

I have found the Tivo really superb. I would like to continue to use it as a lover open source and the sort of developments that come with it.

I am open to ideas - but right now think I cannot continue with the £10 per month subscription... any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

Paul.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Paul - there's no way to get the schedule info without paying TiVo.

However, you can use the TiVo to manually record items from your FreeView box - i.e. a dumb PVR.

Fairly obviously - without listings, TiVo can't do all the season passes, wishlists, suggestions, etc.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Since you are the last of the big spenders, you could always pay tivo £200 for a lifetime subscription, so no more £10/month 

(You are paying Tivo £10/month not Sky BTW)


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## frodott (Jul 2, 2005)

If that's the case - is anyone interested in buying my Tivo - I can put back the 40Gb hd and sell the bits separate. I have a good cachecard (ie the fixed version) with 512Mb RAM that I am happy to take offers on. (or take an offer on the whole lot).
It has 2 remotes. And a very sad person to see it go. 

The folk taking £10 per month for subs need to think how they can deliver better value to their die hard Tivo UK fans. The market is moving on and continuing to pay £10 per month for a service who's value is dropping off when compared to what else is available will result in loss of customers (or is that the plan).

When/if Tivo re-enters the market I'll be at the door to get the new box. Until then I'll sit back and watch my Sky HD ... I hope Tivo realise what a potential gold mine they have here in the UK.

Blue skies

Paul.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Paul - while we're biased, it is worth noting that some people have tried the Sky route and then come back to get their TiVo working again. Don't be hasty.

But if your future is HD, then yes, your TiVo is now redundant. Enjoy your new kit!


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Okay, HD aside, lets say you would have kept your tivo until something better came out. Let's also say that would have been two years. Or £240 in monthly subs.

Give me £120 and I'll take it off your hands. (In real terms this means you're getting £120 for your tivo).


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

For what its worth. 
I have Sky+ downstairs connected to my 42" Plazzer and my tricked up TiVo upstairs connected to a second sky box (on multiroom). Therefore, all the rubbish my wife wants to record gets done on the Sky+ whilst I can use the TiVo to grab what I want to put onto my iPod and watch at a later date (not that I'm allowed to mention that). So all is not lost. 

I'm as happy as a pig in sh*t (all except that Sky+ is a real pigs ear of a machine)


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> I'm as happy as a pig in sh*t (all except that Sky+ is a real pigs ear of a machine)


<rant>

What always amazes me about Sky+ is why they still haven't been able to develop a proper PVR-driven EPG, given the time that the product has been out.

There is no reason why the hardware shouldn't be able to support better, and while software is not cheap to develop, the size of Sky's customer base should easily justify significant investment in something better. If they didn't want to pay TiVo's licence fees, they probably could have bought TiVo Inc at one time or another, and then they could have absorbed the TiVo subscription fees.

Sky's argument that keeping the EPG similar to the standard digibox will hold no water when presented as an acceptable alternative to the TiVo for US customers of DirecTV, so they (i.e. Sky and NDS, their Sky+ developers) are going to have to face the facts in the end. I only hope that any radical improvements that they are then forced to make for DirectTV will filter back into the UK model.

</rant>


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I for one certainly hope that Sky don't start using Tivo software. Not sure how I could justufy staying loyal to VM if they did


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

I suspect that Sky know the + box is capable of more and I expect their developers would love to do more too, my suspicion is it's not the cost or complexity of the interface development that's holding them back - it's the cost of supporting customers with a more complex interface.
As with most companies, Sky will be trying to minimise the number & length of support calls and more functionality will result in a fractional increase in customers and a significant increase in costs.

As Fatboy Slim's album cover said..."I'm #1 so why try harder?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You've_Come_a_Long_Way,_Baby


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

AMc said:


> ... Sky will be trying to minimise the number & length of support calls and more functionality will result in a fractional increase in customers and a significant increase in costs.


I suspect that the TiVo has fewer support calls, because of its intuitive nature and its support via this forum, than Sky+ has. I've never had cause to 'phone them up, after the initial registration. And Sky's policy towards customer support seems to be to charge for the call, and keep you on the line for as long as possible.



> As Fatboy Slim's album cover said..."I'm #1 so why try harder?"


But, in the US, they will definitely be #2. While, like Sky in the UK, they will have a captive market for DirecTV customers, they must still feel threatened by customers moving from satellite to cable, because those customers will be far more TiVo-aware than Joe Public in the UK, and a lot of them will already have used the DirecTiVo.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

AMc said:


> my suspicion is it's not the cost or complexity of the interface development that's holding them (SKY) back - it's the cost of supporting customers with a more complex interface.


I feel a John McEnroe moment coming on.....

You cannot be serious !!!!!

..... more complex interface !!!!!

My daughter was 4 when I got Tivo, after a couple of days I found that all her programs had 3 green thumbs and there were quite a few season passes set up for both her and SWMBO.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

AMc said:


> ..."I'm #1 so why try harder?"


Because when you are number one there is only one way to go.

As Status Quo said ..... " DOWN DOWN "


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

I think that a company like Sky that doesn't have a support forum is either making a lot of money out of customer support, or has too many things to hide.

While this forum is not run by TiVo, it is obviously sponsored by them, and I consider it a significant reason for user satisfaction with the TiVo, and the proliferation of TiVo sales through user recommendation.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

iankb said:


> I think that a company like Sky that doesn't have a support forum is either making a lot of money out of customer support, or has too many things to hide.


I know the former isn't true so draw your own conclusions 

An 0870 number doesn't cover the cost of delivering a call centre. Minimum wage is £5.35 an hour for an over 22 and an 0870 number generates a maximum of £6 an hour (10p a minute) less whatever is paid to the phone operator.

Figures I used to hear used across the general contact centre industry were an average cost to the provider of £6 per call. The 10p a minute cost is a disincentive to prevent customers calling all the time. NTL used to use a horrendous queue instead, but the outcome is the same 

Some Sky puff...
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/10/104016/ar2006/customerservice.html
"WE DEAL WITH AROUND 1.2 MILLION CALLS A WEEK, AND THAT RISES TO OVER 1.6 MILLION IN THE LEAD-UP TO CHRISTMAS."
That's expensive and you don't want it to go up unless they're all ringing in to buy more stuff - even then you'd like them on the web.



katman said:


> You cannot be serious !!!!!
> 
> My daughter was 4 when I got Tivo, after a couple of days I found that all her programs had 3 green thumbs and there were quite a few season passes set up for both her and SWMBO.


Sorry but 4 year olds are learning machines, if we could harness that power for good we'd have nuclear fussion already 

More seriously, ever done any telephone support? I have had to explain at length the difference between a wishlist, season pass and repeat recording to everyone I've ever introduced Tivo to (3 recorders). Then I've had to explain why Tivo didn't record the next +1 channel repeat but has scheduled the original channel season pass in the future instead.

Imagine it costing £6 a call (£12 in total) and making £0 increased revenue every time you have a conversation like....
Caller - I just got home and ER didn't record. I have a season pass for E4 and it didn't record I want a discount or I'm cancelling.
Support - Did you have another recording at the same time
Caller - Yeah, but it's repeated on E4+1 so it should have got that instead.
Support - Season passes are channel specific, to get an episode from either E4 or E4+1 you can either set up two season passes or a wishlist for ER.

and a couple of days later...

Caller - Support told me to do a wishlist for ER and now my recorder is full of all kinds of junk I never wanted. I want a discount or I'm cancelling.
Support - I see, you need an advanced wishlist that also includes the names of some of the actors....

I'm not arguing that a mikey mouse interface is good for customers but there is no business incentive at the moment to improve it.

My understanding is in the states you can use any kind of decryption kit to watch satelite or cable as a standard is enforced to allow competition - if we had that then there would be a reason to offer a more complex system for those prepared to buy the better kit or pay additional subs but our monopolistic pay TV market makes that unlikely.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

AMc said:


> An 0870 number doesn't cover the cost of delivering a call centre. Minimum wage is £5.35 an hour for an over 22 and an 0870 number generates a maximum of £6 an hour (10p a minute) less whatever is paid to the phone operator.


But people often spend a long time in a queue waiting to speak to an "operative".

One reason for having to spend a long time in a queue is that there are insifficent operatives to handle the number of calls.

How many people give up after a period of time without ever speaking to anyone either because that are just totally fed up with holding or have to go and collect the kids or something else.

I have rung SKY on very few occasions but when I have done I have been told that the queue was >50 minutes on several occasions.

Its OK saying "ring outside the busy times" but that isnt always possible.



> WE DEAL WITH AROUND 1.2 MILLION CALLS A WEEK


That is one hell of a lot of calls. Sky has about 8.2million DTH customers so that level of calls represents about 14% of their customers calling EVERY week.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

I agree that they're 'getting paid' for those in the queue, but the queuing systems and the extra lines aren't free either - keeping people waiting also costs money and is a risk to their continued subscription so is bad business. My point was "making a lot of money out of customer support" isn't feasible. Even if they charged premium rates it's not the 'hand over fist' one might imagine.

As you say that's one hell of a lot of calls - and that's with most customers on standard Sky not Sky+ - imagine how much longer the average call would take if the product were more complex and how much longer the average queuing time would be...

Roll on some real competition and we might see some more functional products. In the mean time I thank heaven I bought my Tivo on spec back in 2002!


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

AMc said:


> Minimum wage is £5.35 an hour for an over 22 ...


Not in India, it isn't. And Sky's first-line support is in India. You only get to speak to the Scottish call centre once they have discussed your local weather, etc, with you and realise that you aren't going to give up and go away.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Interesting that the thread starter refered to the Sky+ as a 300mb box. As I understand it 120GB?? is reserved and can not be used for recordings???

And I right about this, or have they changed it now?

By the way the Sky+ operating system is 100% firmware, no operating system is on the HDD.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

You are right, but at least the space is used now!


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

iankb said:


> Not in India, it isn't. And Sky's first-line support is in India....


You're right, silly me, they're making £1000's of pounds a minute. It's in their interest to make sure the equipment goes wrong at least once a week so you have to spend an hour on hold waiting for an Indian call centre rep ?!?

What would I know? It's not like I've interviewed the people responsible for the call centres and the internal help systems - reducing the volume of calls and sustaining their very high levels of customer satisfaction can't have been one of their aims, can it?

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/10/104016/ar2006/customerservice.html
"90% OF OUR CUSTOMERS RATE OUR SERVICE AS GOOD OR VERY GOOD."

I'm no fan of Sky but to suggest that any company would want support calls to make money is just plain silly.


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## frodott (Jul 2, 2005)

I am going to try and pull this back on track... )

Is Tivo going to ship a UK version of their V3 box? A box that will support HD, be able to take 2 or more inputs - like sky, sky and freeview?? Sky are planning to deliver ALL their channels onto HD by the end of this year - so there's a hell of a lot of pressure for Tivo to either change their monthly subs - or to think inovatively and find a bunch of passionate Tivoists to run the business over here for them - I for one would jump at the opportunity to take on the challenge. 

Thoughts?


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

frodott said:


> I am going to try and pull this back on track... )
> 
> Is Tivo going to ship a UK version of their V3 box? A box that will support HD, be able to take 2 or more inputs - like sky, sky and freeview?? Sky are planning to deliver ALL their channels onto HD by the end of this year - so there's a hell of a lot of pressure for Tivo to either change their monthly subs - or to think inovatively and find a bunch of passionate Tivoists to run the business over here for them - I for one would jump at the opportunity to take on the challenge.
> 
> Thoughts?


Unlikley


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Well that was certainly brief and to the point, which is unusual for you


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## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

cwaring said:


> Well that was certainly brief and to the point, which is unusual for you


Meeeeow!


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Well, I am tired and I think it is the time of the month..

I can not see it, sky+ HD is a PVR so why would tivo make a unit.

Most PVR's have data (free) so no one would pay £10 for a sub.... 

When it happens, wake me up and I'll buy one.


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## PPJ (Jun 26, 2002)

Hi frodot,

Adding a network card and installing Tivoweb makes the manual recording process a lot more useable, in my opinion.



PPJ.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

BrianHughes said:


> Meeeeow!


Me? How?


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

AMc said:


> Minimum wage is £5.35 an hour for an over 22 and an 0870 number generates a maximum of £6 an hour (10p a minute) less whatever is paid to the phone operator.


I suspect minimum wage is less than this in the Indian subcontinent, where the majority of my calls to Sky have been diverted these days...

I could be wrong though.


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

aerialplug said:


> I suspect minimum wage is less than this in the Indian subcontinent, where the majority of my calls to Sky have been diverted these days...
> 
> I could be wrong though.


Replies #18 and #21 may be of interest to you   

Ian


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