# Why does TiVO make is so hard?



## rpk113 (Oct 15, 2002)

I have 2X TivoHD's and 1 X Premiere (dual-tuner). I have a yearly deal on the premiere and one of the Tivo HD's. I keep calling to upgrade the yearly TiVoHD to a 4-tuner and they have no deals for me. Not even that, if I want to change out my hardware they want me to cancel my yearly tivohd and purchase a new premiere and new service. I thought phone company upgrades were hard.. Why does TiVO make it so hard for me to give them more $$? I want to keep my service, I want to pay for a new box. But you make it so hard...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

If you had lifetime service on the boxes it would be easy. Then you could just sell the old box to cover most of the cost of a new box with lifetime service. When I upgraded to my lifetime Premieres, I sold my Lifetime S3 boxes to cover most of the cost. When I upgraded to lifetime Elite/XL4 boxes, I sold my Lifetime Premieres to cover all of the cost.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

rpk113 said:


> I have 2X TivoHD's and 1 X Premiere (dual-tuner). I have a yearly deal on the premiere and one of the Tivo HD's. I keep calling to upgrade the yearly TiVoHD to a 4-tuner and they have no deals for me. Not even that, if I want to change out my hardware they want me to cancel my yearly tivohd and purchase a new premiere and new service. I thought phone company upgrades were hard.. Why does TiVO make it so hard for me to give them more $$? I want to keep my service, I want to pay for a new box. But you make it so hard...


They have a product for sale if you want it all you have to do is buy/pay for it. Nothing hard about that at all. Saying a company/person is making it hard to buy something because they won't sell it to you for what you want to pay is amusing.


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## tjtv (Jul 3, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> . When I upgraded to lifetime Elite/XL4 boxes, I sold my Lifetime Premieres to cover all of the cost.


How can you make enough money selling Lifetime premieres to fully cover the cost of lifetime elite/xl4 boxes? Why would someone be willing to pay a similar price for a used item that they could pay for a brand new better item?


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## rpk113 (Oct 15, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> They have a product for sale if you want it all you have to do is buy/pay for it. Nothing hard about that at all. Saying a company/person is making it hard to buy something because they won't sell it to you for what you want to pay is amusing.


Problem is I get that part.. I wantt o buy the goods their selling, but not at the cost of being treated like a new customer (new box, new montly)

TIVO's solution seems to be, once you buy equipment your stuck with it till you a) cancel b) have a hardware failure c) be one of the lucky few to get an upgrade deal.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

If you want to be treated like a new customer then become a new customer with someone else. Otherwise you have to buy what is being offered


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

compnurd said:


> If you want to be treated like a new customer then become a new customer with someone else. Otherwise you have to buy what is being offered


thank you, mr obvious 

THE OP is right, Tivo does not seem to comprehend how to sell, like Fios/Comcast, etc. You try to keep customers, not restart them. Your customer base is your bread and butter.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

You get a MSD, that is the benefit of being a customer.

If I buy a new ipod touch, Apple does not give me a discount because I already own two. Why should I expect one?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

philhu said:


> thank you, mr obvious
> 
> THE OP is right, Tivo does not seem to comprehend how to sell, like Fios/Comcast, etc. You try to keep customers, not restart them. Your customer base is your bread and butter.


Well that has not been my experience with pay TV providers. The best deals are for new customers existing customers have to pay more for the same thing. Sure sometimes (not always) you can get a deal once you actually cancel via retention but nothing up front.


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## lew2 (Dec 31, 2006)

rpk113 said:


> Problem is I get that part.. I wantt o buy the goods their selling, but not at the cost of being treated like a new customer (new box, new montly)


It sounds like your "issue" with TiVo is they're not offering you a special upgrade deal that's better than anyone else can get.

What exactly are you looking for TiVo to do for you?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

rpk113 said:


> Problem is I get that part.. I wantt o buy the goods their selling, but not at the cost of being treated like a new customer (new box, new montly)
> 
> TIVO's solution seems to be, once you buy equipment your stuck with it till you a) cancel b) have a hardware failure c) be one of the lucky few to get an upgrade deal.


And this differs from buying anything else how?

You simple want to pay less for a new TiVo than what TiVo is willing to sell it to you for. Nothing wrong with you deciding it isn't worth it to you to pay more and nothing wrong with TiVo deciding giving you a lower price isn't worth it to them.

That's how capitalism works it requires a willing buyer AND seller.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tjtv said:


> How can you make enough money selling Lifetime premieres to fully cover the cost of lifetime elite/xl4 boxes? Why would someone be willing to pay a similar price for a used item that they could pay for a brand new better item?


I sold two lifetime premieres for each lifetime Elite/XL4. So I had the same number of tuners, but fewer boxes and less power usage. The four lifetime premieres covered more than 100% of the cost of my two lifetime Elite/XL4 boxes including the extended warranties.

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

rpk113 said:


> Why does TiVO make it so hard for me to give them more $$? I want to keep my service, I want to pay for a new box. But you make it so hard...


Tell us exactly what deal you want and what deal you were offered.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

philhu said:


> thank you, mr obvious
> 
> THE OP is right, Tivo does not seem to comprehend how to sell, like Fios/Comcast, etc. You try to keep customers, not restart them. Your customer base is your bread and butter.


Fios and Comcast dont know how to sell either. They churn customer like there is no tomorrow.


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## macgyver (Dec 7, 2001)

I'd be happy to pay full price for the hardware. For me, it's the way they handle 'lifetime' service that's stupid. I'd probably buy new hardware frequently if they either tied the lifetime service to my account (instead of the hardware) or offered a significant discount on lifetime when upgrading hardware.

I know TiVo wants a monthly subscription from everyone. I'm never going to go for it, and they're missing out on the opportunity to sell me new hardware as a result.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

macgyver said:


> I'd be happy to pay full price for the hardware. For me, it's the way they handle 'lifetime' service that's stupid. I'd probably buy new hardware frequently if they either tied the lifetime service to my account (instead of the hardware) or offered a significant discount on lifetime when upgrading hardware.
> 
> I know TiVo wants a monthly subscription from everyone. I'm never going to go for it, and they're missing out on the opportunity to sell me new hardware as a result.


...but Tivo loses money on some hardware. Why would Tivo lose money on hardware they sell to you and tie 'lifetime' service to your account -- also losing money? That's a recipe for a speedy bankruptcy.

Related question: would you pay for a 'lifetime' service subscription tied to your account that lasts 10 years but costs $1000 -$1500? What price point would you jump?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

macgyver said:


> I'd be happy to pay full price for the hardware. For me, it's the way they handle 'lifetime' service that's stupid. I'd probably buy new hardware frequently if they either tied the lifetime service to my account (instead of the hardware) or offered a significant discount on lifetime when upgrading hardware.
> 
> I know TiVo wants a monthly subscription from everyone. I'm never going to go for it, and they're missing out on the opportunity to sell me new hardware as a result.


You can word it anyway you want, but what you and the original poster are saying is I would buy a new TiVo if it cost less.

Well lots of people would buy lots of things if they cost less. I guess we all like to bi*** about the price of things to some extent but honestly does anyone thing it is going to change a thing? TiVo does have deals, they come and go, if one really wants a TiVo just paying attention to the deals can end up saving you some money.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

atmuscarella said:


> You can word it anyway you want, but what you and the original poster are saying is I would buy a new TiVo if it cost less.
> 
> Well lots of people would buy lots of things if they cost less. I guess we all like to bi*** about the price of things to some extent but honestly does anyone thing it is going to change a thing? TiVo does have deals, they come and go, if one really wants a TiVo just paying attention to the deals can end up saving you some money.


+10


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## rpk113 (Oct 15, 2002)

mr_smits said:


> Tell us exactly what deal you want and what deal you were offered.


I was offered a discounted tivo ($249 for 4 tuner) and new service.. I happen to have the older $99 yearly service and wanted to keep it. I was told no way.. I offered to pay $399 for the 4-tuner, again no way..

I'm not asking for free stuff, or deep discount, or $49 lifetime. I want them to comprehend that as their equipment gets older (less technologically advanced) that we'll want new hardware and not have to give our spleen to get it.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

jrtroo said:


> You get PLS, that is the benefit of being a customer.
> 
> If I buy a new ipod touch, Apple does not give me a discount because I already own two. Why should I expect one?


Bad example. Unlike Apple, when I buy a new TiVo, they do give me a discount, because I have a TiVo with Lifetime.

With the multi-service discount, I used to get service on my second TiVo for $6.95. By the time I got my TiVoHD, the MSD monthly rate was $9.95. Sure, it would have been great if the MSD monthly rate was still $6.95 forever, but I also want TiVo to make enough money to stay in business. So I'm happy to get any kind of price break at all. The $99 yearly service deal was a nice price, but they're not offering it for new boxes anymore, just like I can't get $6.95 for my monthly deal. That's just the way it is.

If the OP wants a good deal, nothing's stopping him from putting Lifetime on one of his boxes, and taking advantage of the MSD deals after that.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tjtv said:


> How can you make enough money selling Lifetime premieres to fully cover the cost of lifetime elite/xl4 boxes? Why would someone be willing to pay a similar price for a used item that they could pay for a brand new better item?


If lifetime cost $399 for a TiVo customer that can get a MSD, they can sell a TiVo-HD on E-Bay and net close to the $399, now maybe only $320 as the Series 3 is getting old, but for a new TiVo customer that has to pay $499 for Lifetime + the cost of the hardware, about $100, that person get a good HD TiVo for almost 1/2 price, the seller pays only $399 + $99 -$320= $179, good deal for both.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

macgyver said:


> I know TiVo wants a monthly subscription from everyone. I'm never going to go for it, and they're missing out on the opportunity to sell me new hardware as a result.


They sell hardware at a loss (subsidized by the subscription), so why on earth should they want to lose money to keep you happy? They are better off with out you than if they gave you what you want.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

You should be able to get lifetime on your HD for $99 if you buy a full-price Premiere and put service on it. Take the HD and sell it for $300+ and use that to pay for the Premiere.


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## lew2 (Dec 31, 2006)

Arcady said:


> You should be able to get lifetime on your HD for $99 if you buy a full-price Premiere and put service on it.


That wasn't available on the phone when I talked to them on Saturday 2/2. Of course that seems to change periodically and is regularly available. Just in case anyone tries to call right now, may need to be patient.

As to the $99/yr rate the OP mentioned... I sure would love to still be able to buy gasoline at 75 cents a gallon, but that ship has sailed.


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## macgyver (Dec 7, 2001)

mr_smits said:


> ...but Tivo loses money on some hardware. Why would Tivo lose money on hardware they sell to you and tie 'lifetime' service to your account -- also losing money? That's a recipe for a speedy bankruptcy.
> 
> Related question: would you pay for a 'lifetime' service subscription tied to your account that lasts 10 years but costs $1000 -$1500? What price point would you jump?


Perhaps. I'd definitely pay a fair sum (I already bought two lifetimes for my two boxes, so that's $800 or so right there). I'm not a fan of subsidized pricing or other models which complicate things for exactly this reason. Here's what I, as a consumer, want from TiVo (a company I went out of my way to have a direct relationship with instead of having a provider-provided DVR or 'sponsored' TiVo experience).

1. No monthly fees. I'm (obviously) willing to pay up front to get out of that. They get more cash up front, interest benefits, etc.

2. The ability to upgrade my hardware when I want (for whatever the hardware actually costs) without being penalized by the lifetime service.

I'm a geek. I have a fair amount of disposable income, so I'm willing to consider upgrading two Premiere boxes just to go from 2 to 4 tuners. I'm managing fine with my two current Premieres, but their model (for Lifetime, at least) encourages you to keep your current hardware versus upgrading, which seems like poor implementation on their part.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

rpk113 said:


> Problem is I get that part.. I wantt o buy the goods their selling, but not at the cost of being treated like a new customer (new box, new montly)


You aren't being treated as a new customer, you get a $100 discount on lifetime.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

macgyver said:


> 1. No monthly fees. I'm (obviously) willing to pay up front to get out of that. They get more cash up front, interest benefits, etc.
> 
> 2. The ability to upgrade my hardware when I want (for whatever the hardware actually costs) without being penalized by the lifetime service.
> 
> I'm a geek. I have a fair amount of disposable income, so I'm willing to consider upgrading two Premiere boxes just to go from 2 to 4 tuners. I'm managing fine with my two current Premieres, but their model (for Lifetime, at least) encourages you to keep your current hardware versus upgrading, which seems like poor implementation on their part.


Since you don't use the monthly payment option, don't think of the DVR and service as two different things.
Ignore the service for a moment. Think of just buying a DVR that costs $550 (low end) to $800 (high end). Like other things, it doesn't matter how many you buy. It will always cost what it costs.
How do you feel penalized by the lifetime service?
You think Tivos should be like cars where you can "trade in" your old model for a new one?
Although TiVo doesn't do trade ins, you CAN sell your Tivos to help recoup some of the costs of upgrading. You won't get what you paid for them, but that's the same for anything you sell used.


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## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

macgyver said:


> ...but their model (for Lifetime, at least) encourages you to keep your current hardware versus upgrading, which seems like poor implementation on their part.


Correct, Lifetime does do this. The alternative, is a monthly subscription, which frees you to upgrade the hardware at any time (well after 12 months), as your old hardware has minimal value, and the new hardware is subsidized and typically requires a 12 month contract.

Lifetime does not break even for a number of months, around 25 IIRC, at this point if you hand on to the unit you are saving $15 to $20 per month. If you want to upgrade, Tivo is not going to help you out, but your hardware has a high value because of the Lifetime, and you'll get most of your money back, which you can then roll over into the new hardware and Lifetime.

The Tivo model is straightforward, it is just that you'd prefer that they roll your Lifetime over to a new unit, and Tivo has no interest in doing that as they don't make any money then.

Phone company upgrades are easy because they have you by the short hairs, and fleece you for $100+ per month.
[/rant]


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## macgyver (Dec 7, 2001)

steve614 said:


> Since you don't use the monthly payment option, don't think of the DVR and service as two different things.
> Ignore the service for a moment. Think of just buying a DVR that costs $550 (low end) to $800 (high end). Like other things, it doesn't matter how many you buy. It will always cost what it costs.
> How do you feel penalized by the lifetime service?
> You think Tivos should be like cars where you can "trade in" your old model for a new one?
> Although TiVo doesn't do trade ins, you CAN sell your Tivos to help recoup some of the costs of upgrading. You won't get what you paid for them, but that's the same for anything you sell used.


Except $550 to $800 is nowhere near what that hardware costs. I understand the model TiVo is using. It is (IMHO) overly complicated, and in my case (not saying I'm a stand-in for everyone) it's preventing them from selling me new hardware as quickly as they otherwise could have. I'm not saying this is the worst thing ever - but I agree with the original poster that TiVo's model is more focused on new customers & purchases, versus the potential for additional hardware revenue from current customers.


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## macgyver (Dec 7, 2001)

P42 said:


> Correct, Lifetime does do this. The alternative, is a monthly subscription, which frees you to upgrade the hardware at any time (well after 12 months), as your old hardware has minimal value, and the new hardware is subsidized and typically requires a 12 month contract.
> 
> Lifetime does not break even for a number of months, around 25 IIRC, at this point if you hand on to the unit you are saving $15 to $20 per month. If you want to upgrade, Tivo is not going to help you out, but your hardware has a high value because of the Lifetime, and you'll get most of your money back, which you can then roll over into the new hardware and Lifetime.
> 
> ...


My hardware has a high value only to those customers who understand this 'straightforward' model, which is not Joe Average.

Their model is not straightforward. Subsidizing hardware is pretty much the opposite of straightforward.

Straightforward would be selling the hardware for what the hardware costs, the service for what the service costs, and lifetime (if they offered it) for whatever the average cost of a lifetime subscription was (all with their profit markup, of course).


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

macgyver said:


> Except $550 to $800 is nowhere near what that hardware costs. I understand the model TiVo is using. It is (IMHO) overly complicated, and in my case (not saying I'm a stand-in for everyone) it's preventing them from selling me new hardware as quickly as they otherwise could have. I'm not saying this is the worst thing ever - but I agree with the original poster that TiVo's model is more focused on new customers & purchases, versus the potential for additional hardware revenue from current customers.





macgyver said:


> My hardware has a high value only to those customers who understand this 'straightforward' model, which is not Joe Average.
> 
> Their model is not straightforward. Subsidizing hardware is pretty much the opposite of straightforward.
> 
> Straightforward would be selling the hardware for what the hardware costs, the service for what the service costs, and lifetime (if they offered it) for whatever the average cost of a lifetime subscription was (all with their profit markup, of course).


Sorry but we have no idea what it costs TiVo to develop and manufacture their DVRs. What we do know from their financial reports is they have virtually never made any profit selling Stand Alone DVRs. If it were not for the deals with pay TV providers and law suite settlements TiVo would already be gone. Saying TiVo's pricing isn't straight forward seems like you are over thinking things. They have 2 options either pay everything upfront or pay part upfront and part monthly why isn't that straight forward? Ok I guess 2 options is more complicated than only 1 option but really does having a choice really complicate it that much? Yes if someone tries to figure out how the pricing structure is derived that certainly would be complicated but why would a consumer need to worry about it? Either the price is acceptable (low enough) for them or it isn't.

The reason TiVo has tried so many different pricing options is because they have not been able to find a price point where they can become profitable. With the Premiere they have tried pricing in just about every way possible and there still isn't enough demand to maintain subscribers.

After all of the above the bottom line is still that you want Tivo DVRs and service to cost less. Well most of us want everything (except our own labor ) to cost less so I guess you are in good company.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

"Joe Average" is using eBay, because I have no problem selling TiVo HD boxes with lifetime for $350+ there, always within a day.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

macgyver said:


> I'm a geek. I have a fair amount of disposable income, so I'm willing to consider upgrading two Premiere boxes just to go from 2 to 4 tuners. *I'm managing fine with my two current Premieres, but their model (for Lifetime, at least) encourages you to keep your current hardware versus upgrading, which seems like poor implementation on their part.*


True. It would be interesting if they offered a option to make upgrading more attractive. As it is, it requires selling to get the residual value from the box. Customers with lifetime have little incentive to upgrade since they are heavily invested with existing box.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mr_smits said:


> True. It would be interesting if they offered a option to make upgrading more attractive. As it is, it requires selling to get the residual value from the box. Customers with lifetime have little incentive to upgrade since they are heavily invested with existing box.


The incentive is getting a newer box. I've never had a problem selling any of my TiVos. I've sold around twenty of them over the years both lifetime and non lifetime. My fist choice is to sell here and then eBay.

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Saying TiVo's pricing isn't straight forward seems like you are over thinking things. They have 2 options either pay everything upfront or pay part upfront and part monthly why isn't that straight forward?


But Tivo's pricing isn't that simple. The two options you listed are available at four different prices depending on whether you qualify for MSD.

What about specially-discounted hardware that requires higher-than-normal monthly rate for a period of time? And what about all the secret deals offered to some customers? $99 lifetime if you've paid a sufficient number of monthly payments on an existing box. Or $99 to transfer lifetime from an older generation of DVR?

Tivo's pricing structure has been a confusing mess with inconsistent application, leading to customers playing CSR roulette in an effort to receive the same secret pricing someone else received.


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## macgyver (Dec 7, 2001)

Arcady said:


> "Joe Average" is using eBay, because I have no problem selling TiVo HD boxes with lifetime for $350+ there, always within a day.


That you can sell them quickly on eBay doesn't change the fact that you're selling to a much smaller pool of potential buyers, since they have to already know (or you have to educate them) on the benefit of the lifetime.

I prefer to meet people face to face and so much prefer local sales via craigslist where I can shake someone's hand, so the added complication cuts down on the number of potential buyers.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

DaveDFW said:


> But Tivo's pricing isn't that simple. The two options you listed are available at four different prices depending on whether you qualify for MSD.


Ok if you find that complicated, difficult to understand or whatever then you do. I don't and if anyone logs into their account the web site will tell you exactly what pricing you qualify for as will a CS Rep if you call.



DaveDFW said:


> What about specially-discounted hardware that requires higher-than-normal monthly rate for a period of time? And what about all the secret deals offered to some customers? $99 lifetime if you've paid a sufficient number of monthly payments on an existing box. Or $99 to transfer lifetime from an older generation of DVR?
> 
> Tivo's pricing structure has been a confusing mess with inconsistent application, leading to customers playing CSR roulette in an effort to receive the same secret pricing someone else received.


It's called marketing and capitalism. Prices of products change all the time, deals, coupons, specials, sales, rebates, ect. come and go all the time. Just watch the price of a few things on Amazon they change with demand. When I worked at an Radio shack for Christmas one year (many years ago) the manager had an additional discount he could give someone to help us close a sale if needed. My local 7-11 changes the price of Gas several times per week, coupons are everywhere. I just bought a shirt today form Penny's it had 4 price tags on it, $60, $35, $24, & $10 and the reason I stopped was because they sent me a $10 coupon so I paid $0 for the shirt, I am sure there were others who bought at all 4 price points. That is how capitalism works.

Trying to get the best price for something is certainly a good idea but at some point you have to say enough time spent and buy what you want to buy and then enjoy it.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

macgyver said:


> Except $550 to $800 is nowhere near what that hardware costs.


And that's what you have to get out of your head. TiVo subsidizes the cost of the hardware with the subscription. 
Who knows what the hardware really costs? 
I guess you can find out by calling TiVo:










But the idea is to think of it like any other piece of high end equipment.
Think audio. Why pay more for a Marantz or Pioneer receiver when some off brand would work just as well?

Also, think what it would cost you to build your own DVR (HTPC).

Case + motherboard + power supply + video card + hard drive(s) + cooling fans, etc.
All that stuff adds up and I'd be surprised if you could get all of it for under $500.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

Wait until you try to cancel a box after your year is over, then you will truly know the meaning of "Tivo making it so hard"


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

macgyver said:


> Except $550 to $800 is nowhere near what that hardware costs. I understand the model TiVo is using. It is (IMHO) overly complicated, and in my case (not saying I'm a stand-in for everyone) it's preventing them from selling me new hardware as quickly as they otherwise could have.


Are you factoring in development costs or just manufacturing costs? TiVo has to amortize over the expected life of each product all costs of designing the hardware and writing or modifying the software, plus I suppose marketing costs and other overhead. I do agree that they have sometimes used some strange and overly complicated pricing schemes.


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## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

Is is fair to say what people are looking for is for Tivo to provide a trade-up? One that lets them trade in their current hardware for new hardware without an increase in their monthly subscription or at a significantly reduced Lifetime cost, say $200?

The disadvantages of such a program for Tivo, ignoring the cost of staffing such a program are:
1/ No increase in active subscriber numbers. When you sell your Lifetime Tivo to recoup the cost, Tivo maintains an active box, the more active boxes Tivo has the better things look, it is not always important for these boxes to be paying every month. Think of the Apps that Tivo has put on the boxes, and the advertisements. 
2/ Disposal of old boxes: Tivo would be responsible for a huge pile of e-junk, which no one is interested in buying.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

P42 said:


> Is is fair to say what people are looking for is for Tivo to provide a trade-up? One that lets them trade in their current hardware for new hardware without an increase in their monthly subscription or at a significantly reduced Lifetime cost, say $200?
> 
> The disadvantages of such a program for Tivo, ignoring the cost of staffing such a program are:
> 1/ No increase in active subscriber numbers. When you sell your Lifetime Tivo to recoup the cost, Tivo maintains an active box, the more active boxes Tivo has the better things look, it is not always important for these boxes to be paying every month. Think of the Apps that Tivo has put on the boxes, and the advertisements.
> 2/ Disposal of old boxes: Tivo would be responsible for a huge pile of e-junk, which no one is interested in buying.


They did that when the premiere was first released. All my launch Premieres only cost $200 for lifetime service. For each S3 I owned they offered a special deal to upgrade to the Premiere. They offered lifetime for $200 or if you had a monthly rate on the S3 they transferred that rate to the new Premiere and gave you a year of service on the S3. That is why my one remaining launch Premiere has a $6.95 monthly rate. I've sold all my lifetime launch premieres that had the $200 lifetime rate.(Although the initial cost of the Premiere was much higher than it is now)

These incentives were offered when the Premiere first came out to get people to upgrade. The Premiere is almost three years old now. There is no reason to be offering deals like that now. If the op wanted a deal they should have jumped on it when the Premiere was first released.

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


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## rpk113 (Oct 15, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> They did that when the premiere was first released. All my launch Premieres only cost $200 for lifetime service. For each S3 I owned they offered a special deal to upgrade to the Premiere. They offered lifetime for $200 or if you had a monthly rate on the S3 they transferred that rate to the new Premiere and gave you a year of service on the S3. That is why my one remaining launch Premiere has a $6.95 monthly rate. I've sold all my lifetime launch premieres that had the $200 lifetime rate.(Although the initial cost of the Premiere was much higher than it is now)
> 
> These incentives were offered when the Premiere first came out to get people to upgrade. The Premiere is almost three years old now. There is no reason to be offering deals like that now. If the op wanted a deal they should have jumped on it when the Premiere was first released.
> 
> Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


so short sighted.. 2 tuner premiere.. now they have 4 tuner.. I should have jumped on a train that didnt exist yet?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I was glad I jumped on it. I had eight or nine S3 boxes and sold all but two to cover most of the cost of the seven lifetime, 2 tuner, Premieres I got at launch. I sold four lifetime Premieres to cover the cost of my lifetime Elite/XL4 boxes. And the rest were sold because my GF did not want to replace her S3 boxes with the Premieres at the time. So I broke even on those boxes. I am very glad I jump on the deals when they were available. Otherwise i would have paid more money for my TiVos(and service) if I had waited around.

As long as the lifetime TiVos retain a high resale value and I can sell them to cover most of the cost of upgrading to new TiVos, I will be happy.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

I started with a series 1 Sony in 1999 with lifetime and have upgraded to the next series each time just after launch. Each time I have sold the old box with lifetime for more than the cost of the new lifetime sub. IE each upgrad has cost less than the cost of the hardward alone and I still have a lifetime sub. 3 now actually.

The current business model works fine for the consumer and works better for tivo because if the move the lifetime, the old box goes away. With the current model they gain a subscriber. The cost to the consumer is roughly the same as it works out.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> I started with a series 1 Sony in 1999 with lifetime and have upgraded to the next series each time just after launch. Each time I have sold the old box with lifetime for more than the cost of the new lifetime sub. IE each upgrad has cost less than the cost of the hardward alone and I still have a lifetime sub. 3 now actually.
> 
> The current business model works fine for the consumer and works better for tivo because if the move the lifetime, the old box goes away. With the current model they gain a subscriber. The cost to the consumer is roughly the same as it works out.


When you move a Lifetime TiVo how does that help TiVo, I don't know how many people would have purchase a TiVo with monthly or Lifetime that instead purchased a Lifetime unit from E-Bay or somewhere else. TiVo makes no extra money from that type of sale, except they keep the expense of providing guide data and get some extra ad money..maybe.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

lessd said:


> When you move a Lifetime TiVo how does that help TiVo, I don't know how many people would have purchase a TiVo with monthly or Lifetime that instead purchased a Lifetime unit from E-Bay or somewhere else. TiVo makes no extra money from that type of sale, except they keep the expense of providing guide data and get some extra ad money..maybe.


Depends on what would have happen if the person hadn't sold the older Tivo with lifetime. In any event if you sell a Tivo with lifetime and replace it with a new one TiVo has increased their sub numbers, so in that case Tivo does benifit.

But my guess is if people couldn't sell TiVos with lifetime they wouldn't upgrade as much or decide Tivos cost to much and not buy them at all and some people who buy used Tivos would not buy Tivos at all again because of the cost. So I am guessing the policy has resulted in more sales over time. Plus how could they really sell lifetime service for the box and not the person and then not let the service stay with the box? Frankly if I had not been able to by lifetime under the current terms I would never have bought any HD Tivos and switched to a HTPC and I suspect I am not the only one.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Depends on what would have happen if the person hadn't sold the older Tivo with lifetime. In any event if you sell a Tivo with lifetime and replace it with a new one TiVo has increased their sub numbers, so in that case Tivo does benifit.
> 
> But my guess is if people couldn't sell TiVos with lifetime they wouldn't upgrade as much or decide Tivos cost to much and not buy them at all and some people who buy used Tivos would not buy Tivos at all again because of the cost. So I am guessing the policy has resulted in more sales over time. Plus how could they really sell lifetime service for the box and not the person and then not let the service stay with the box? Frankly if I had not been able to by lifetime under the current terms I would never have bought any HD Tivos and switched to a HTPC and I suspect I am not the only one.


I feel exactly as you do, good deal for their customers, *BUT* TiVo has not made any real money, Apple went from $20 to $700, TiVo started at about $57 and went to $5 than back to $13 or something over the last 12 years, just compare Apple to TiVo from the year 2000. Don't get me wrong I love the TiVo product, but not their P&L.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

lessd said:


> I feel exactly as you do, good deal for their customers, *BUT* TiVo has not made any real money, Apple went from $20 to $700, TiVo started at about $57 and went to $5 than back to $13 or something over the last 12 years, just compare Apple to TiVo from the year 2000. Don't get me wrong I love the TiVo product, but not their P&L.


The question of why hasn't TiVo (or anyone) been successful selling Stand Alone DVRs is very interesting. I think that most of us that regularly post on this forum are so big fans of good DVRs that we can not understand why the market for them isn't huge. But the market reality seems to be that most people don't want to deal with a Stand Alone DVR, at least not with the hassles and restrictions that the FCC has allowed.

Most people who have a DVR seem to want a DVR that their pay TV Provider deals with for them and preferably hides some or all of the cost in their Pay TV subscription costs. At least that is what I have to assume as DVRs are used as loss leaders to obtain new customers by Pay TV providers on a regular basics and the vast majority of DVRs come from Pay TV providers directly.

Now if the FCC had forced a software only solution that work with 100% of the Pay TV providers services and forced all Pay TV providers to use it along with forcing them to break the actually cost of DVRs out of the Pay TV subscription, things might be different. Stand Alone DVRs could have moved the tuners out of the box to make them portable between OTA, Cable, Dish, Direct, & AT&T, by just buying different tuners and Stand Alone units would look allot more price competitive. But who knows maybe most people just don't care.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

lessd said:


> When you move a Lifetime TiVo how does that help TiVo, I don't know how many people would have purchase a TiVo with monthly or Lifetime that instead purchased a Lifetime unit from E-Bay or somewhere else. TiVo makes no extra money from that type of sale, except they keep the expense of providing guide data and get some extra ad money..maybe.


Tivo subsidizes the cost of each box. Dropping subscription from one box to place it on another leaves a box un subscribed. A new user buying a box on ebay with lifetime sub is cheaper for tivo than them buying a new box with sub and you not buying a sub. Either way they have sold one new lifetime sub. Just with the current model, it has cost them one less subsidy.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> Tivo subsidizes the cost of each box. Dropping subscription from one box to place it on another leaves a box un subscribed. A new user buying a box on ebay with lifetime sub is cheaper for tivo than them buying a new box with sub and you not buying a sub. Either way they have sold one new lifetime sub. Just with the current model, it has cost them one less subsidy.


Your assuming that the seller would not purchase a new TiVo if he could not recover some of the cost using E-Bay or other was of selling their TiVo. How many people that want to upgrade their TiVo also know about setting up an E-Bay account with PayPal, it is hard to tell what would have served TiVo best from their P&L standpoint, but TiVo is not making much money on the stand alone TiVo as things are now.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Seriously? Plenty of people I know that probably don't meet your low bar buy and sell on fleabay all the time. Give people some credit.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> Seriously? Plenty of people I know that probably don't meet your low bar buy and sell on fleabay all the time. Give people some credit.


I was not giving an insult to anyone who does not sell on E-Bay, just saying some people just get the cable co DVR and have no hassle with service or operation, or for upgrades at no extra charge. E-Bay success is not from the people I know, now and then I help someone to sell on E-Bay, most of the people I know buy things on E-Bay all the time. Selling can be a pain to some because of the packing and shipping.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's silly not to factor in resale value for lifetime units. I don't care how they are resold (fleabay, craigslist, or otherwise) - to discount that value makes for a false comparison of actual cost of buying Tivos vs. renting crappy cable DVRs.

Yes, there are plenty of people that want the cableCo to take care of everything for them, that's why Tivo struggles. We don't care what those folks do.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's silly not to factor in resale value for lifetime units. I don't care how they are resold (fleabay, craigslist, or otherwise) - to discount that value makes for a false comparison of actual cost of buying Tivos vs. renting crappy cable DVRs.
> 
> Yes, there are plenty of people that want the cableCo to take care of everything for them, that's why Tivo struggles. We don't care what those folks do.


Most people do facture in the resale of say a car, and should with a TiVo and Lifetime, that one good reason I upgrade when my older Lifetime TiVo still has good value, today a Series 2 with Lifetime does not have much value, but a Series 3 with Lifetime does.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

lessd said:


> Most people do facture in the resale of say a car, and should with a TiVo and Lifetime, that one good reason I upgrade when my older Lifetime TiVo still has good value, today a Series 2 with Lifetime does not have much value, but a Series 3 with Lifetime does.


Problem is my original Series 3 HD and TiVo HD both get better reception than my Premiere (OTA only) kind of counter productive to sell them for another Premiere. Hopefully the next hardware update will change that but I am not holding my breath.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Problem is my original Series 3 HD and TiVo HD both get better reception than my Premiere (OTA only) kind of counter productive to sell them for another Premiere. Hopefully the next hardware update will change that but I am not holding my breath.


I don't use OTA but my guess is that the TP 2 tuner will be the last of the OTA TiVo models.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

lessd said:


> I don't use OTA but my guess is that the TP 2 tuner will be the last of the OTA TiVo models.


Not according to the latest FCC waiver request.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

lessd said:


> I don't use OTA but my guess is that the TP 2 tuner will be the last of the OTA TiVo models.


Not unless TiVo has "drunk the Kool-Aid" being offered to them by the cable companies.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

L David Matheny said:


> Not unless TiVo has "drunk the Kool-Aid" being offered to them by the cable companies.


This was only a guess on my part, I hope I am wrong.


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## Old Tom (Oct 7, 2012)

rpk113 said:


> I have 2X TivoHD's and 1 X Premiere (dual-tuner). I have a yearly deal on the premiere and one of the Tivo HD's. I keep calling to upgrade the yearly TiVoHD to a 4-tuner and they have no deals for me. Not even that, if I want to change out my hardware they want me to cancel my yearly tivohd and purchase a new premiere and new service. I thought phone company upgrades were hard.. Why does TiVO make it so hard for me to give them more $$? I want to keep my service, I want to pay for a new box. But you make it so hard...


When my HD died awhile back, I went looking for a replacement and decided that it would make most sense to buy a Premiere (dual-tuner). The advertised price required a new service agreement at the higher rate, BUT if I purchased one for the "full price" of $199.99, they would issue me a "Service Transfer Letter" which allowed me to keep my old service plan at $129.00 per year.

It didn't take any high-level math to figure out that the higher price would be paid for in the difference in one year's service agreement.

I wish I could tell you how that came to be, but it transpired over the phone just under a year ago. Ask the CS or sales person for a "Service Transfer Letter." Good luck!


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

So you paid $329 for a Premiere with one year of service, when you could have paid $449 and had lifetime service? That seems like a bad deal to me.


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## Gaidin43 (Mar 6, 2013)

I argued with TiVo sales a few times over this same issue. 

I WANT to spend money with them and buy a premiere 4 and a TiVo stream and a TiVo mini with lifetime service but I am unwilling to pay the $399 for lifetime AGAIN since I still have a premiere. 

I want to transfer me lifetime. I would totally pay $99 for a transfer fee to the new box, but they will not do anything even similar. 

I would sell the old hardware without the lifetime and be done with it. 

They need to review this policy because in the end I am will to spend more money, expanding the equipment I use, the people who use it, and still maintaining a subscriber. The no transfer policy sucks.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Gaidin43 said:


> I argued with TiVo sales a few times over this same issue.
> 
> I WANT to spend money with them and buy a premiere 4 and a TiVo stream and a TiVo mini with lifetime service but I am unwilling to pay the $399 for lifetime AGAIN since I still have a premiere.
> 
> ...


That would be great if we could xfer Lifetime Service from box to box, but TiVo has made it clear this can't be done after 30 days. I has been this way for more than 10 years, and when you purchased Lifetime Service you had to agree to the terms, like it or not. If you are willing to pay $99 to xfer Lifetime than pay another $299 and get a two for, you can sell your TP (that will still have Lifetime) for more than the extra $299.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

What really sucks is that they aren't willing to do MSD off of a dead box. I want to go back to TiVo, and they won't give me ANYTHING. I'll have to play more CSR roulette with them after the Mini announcement.


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