# D* Good Bye and Good Riddence



## deathfromabove (Jun 29, 2005)

Well, D* has lost yet another customer. I have 2 HR10-250's. The first was purchased the 1st week of release. I was told that I was one of the first people in Chicago to buy one. In fact, when I called to activate it customer service didn't even have instructions. They had to call me back! The second, I bought last year when I moved because I was promised a "free" upgrade to a new MPEG-4 HD machine.

So here's where things stand. To date there is no evidence of a 6.3 upgrade on any of my machines. Customer service doesn't know a thing about the "free" upgrade. All this time FIOSTV is offering me some really great deals. My friends rave about the picture and customer service. So, since D* is stuck in some type of customer service and technology wasteland, I'm gone. Verizon comes tomorrow. 

I really can't understand why there is no reward for loyalty with D* At the very least, those of us with original boxes, should have been upgraded first. (Did I mention that the first 2 of my HR10-250 died within a week of purchase?)

Ken


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

So you left DirecTV because your HR10s didn't upgrade to 6.3a fast enough? I don't get it.


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## tazzmission (Oct 15, 2002)

I hear you. I was the first guy in my area to get an HR10-250 for $1000. I bought another a year later for $500. No 6.3 here. No talk of any free upgrade to the HR20 either. All I get from CSR's is $99. I am not sure I even want that anyway. I wish I had another option here in Pittsburgh other than Adelphia (now Comcast) cable.


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## deathfromabove (Jun 29, 2005)

I left D* because their business model rewards their most recent customers. At some point someone at D* should have asked, what should we do for all of those customers who were early adopters of the technology and are sitting on our oldest boxes? My earliest unit is perhaps 2 years old now. All of the pictures that we are receiving on these boxes are inferior. Sure I dropped a grand on the box. But I have 4 times that invested in new HD TV's! I rather sign up with another company with better service and a better picture, than sit around hoping D* will take care of me. So, yeah it's important to me that my software be updated first. That's my point.


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## EMoMoney (Oct 30, 2001)

I don't blame you at all. At least you're in an area where you have a viable option. Yes, we have Comcast here, but we tried switching a year or so ago. and the box they use here in my county, SA8000HD, was just terrible. The software was so much inferior to TiVo and my wife hated it. I don't have FIOS here yet either. But D* had better get on the ball soon before FIOS is widely available.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

deathfromabove said:


> So here's where things stand. To date there is no evidence of a 6.3 upgrade on any of my machines. Customer service doesn't know a thing about the "free" upgrade. All this time FIOSTV is offering me some really great deals. My friends rave about the picture and customer service. So, since D* is stuck in some type of customer service and technology wasteland, I'm gone. Verizon comes tomorrow.


Where around Chicago are you actually located? Verizon still doesn't show my part of the city having FIOS yet. I'm around Belmont and Harlem.


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## alant40 (Oct 23, 2004)

I've been with Dave, oh sorry, DTV since it's inception. Dave is from the hacking days. 
I have 11 receivers in my home. To this day, I have not paid for one upgraded receiver other than handling and taxes. I received 4 D11's 2 weeks ago for 20.00 to swap with older RCA's. I have received 2 HR10's for the cost of handling and tax. This past Saturday, I received 2 HR20's and 1 H20 along with the 5 LNB dish and 2 Zinwell multi switches. 36.00 dollars. Few more upgrades and I'm done. There are retention numbers all over this site. If you get the right rep, the sky is the limit. I have gotten turned down, don't get me wrong. Just keep calling back. It helps if you sub to the highest package. Love that A list crap they preach every time I call. Use it to your advantage. I also have never paid for the Super Fan(NFL) package. I complained big time when they started charging for HD content which was free the previous year. As for the 6.3 upgrade, I don't even want it. Leave the unit unplugged from the phone line and you won't get the upgrade, or so I was told. To many issues from what I read on these boards. All in all, DTV has treated me, a loyal customer, pretty darn well.


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## Montana Man (Aug 16, 2005)

I got my update the same night i got the messge.... No issues whatsoever with the update.


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## shendley (Jul 19, 2006)

Gotta chime in on behalf of dtv here. Been with them for 6 years now and the only issue I've ever had with them that wasn't fixed immediately was some pixelation during some football games in SD last year (actually, the pq really sucked last year). But now I've got HD so that's a non issue (and they do seem to have finally fixed the issue in SD anyway). Since reading this board for the last couple of months I've gotten two free hddvrs (HR 10 and 20), new AT9 dish, much free installation, free premium channels, free superfan, the hole nine yards. As was said, you just gotta call retention one or two times. Gotta say I'm happy as a clam with them.


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

I left DirecTV mostly because their picture quality sucked. Both SD and HD. And their pricing wasn't that good a deal any more. 

Sure, I liked the D* TiVo implementation, but that appears to be ending too with them. 

Maybe someday I'll go back, but for now, they just didn't have the value for what I was paying them for, a great picture. It had really gone downhill in the 7 years I used D*. Haven't missed them one bit since I went back to cable. 

I think Murdoch expected more from D*, and others there made some bonehead decisions that have really changed the way folks think and feel about D*. We're seeing a lot of that now in the marketplace. Meanwhile Murdoch is calling it the turd bird, or was that bird turd? 

Probably the strongest thing D* has going for it, besides providing service to places that cable won't, is the NFL Sunday Ticket.


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## marky_mark (Sep 16, 2006)

deathfromabove said:


> Well, D* has lost yet another customer. I have 2 HR10-250's. The first was purchased the 1st week of release. I was told that I was one of the first people in Chicago to buy one. In fact, when I called to activate it customer service didn't even have instructions. They had to call me back! The second, I bought last year when I moved because I was promised a "free" upgrade to a new MPEG-4 HD machine.
> 
> So here's where things stand. To date there is no evidence of a 6.3 upgrade on any of my machines. Customer service doesn't know a thing about the "free" upgrade. All this time FIOSTV is offering me some really great deals. My friends rave about the picture and customer service. So, since D* is stuck in some type of customer service and technology wasteland, I'm gone. Verizon comes tomorrow.
> 
> ...


If you were one of the first to own a HR10-250, then you must've paid $1000. After putting down that chunk of change, I can understand why you're upset. Don't let the door hit you on the way out....


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

deathfromabove said:


> I left D* because their business model rewards their most recent customers...


You are certainly entitled to that as a reason, but guess what...as someone who subscribed to DISH for 8 years and who subscribed to cable and worked in the cable industry for another 9, you won't find a different attitude anywhere else. All vendors are trying to woo those who are not yet their customers, and they all put much less emphasis on keeping them. That's just the way the world goes around. So spite seems like a weak argument.

DTV isn't perfect, in fact they have a few key problems they don't seem to know how to deal with very well. But actually, DTV is the only one who gave me PVRs for free (and as an existing customer) and gave me Showtime for 3 months without me even asking them, just because I paid my bill on time for the first 12 months. Their retention department seems to bend over backwards at the drop of a remote. I rank them well above anyone else for attending to existing customers, even if they are, as a company, ham-handed and can't seem to find their dicks in the dark.

Speaking of which, maybe you should just shut your TV off and sit there in the dark. That'll show everybody.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

deathfromabove said:


> I was told that I was one of the first people in Chicago to buy one.


OK, I'm confused - since Verizon does NOT service any of Chicago, (AT&T) I'm assuming you live _somewhere_ in the vicinity. You mind telling us what city you do live in - or do you even live in IL anymore?  

I'm asking because I figured IL would be the LAST place Verizon would be doing FIOS - since they make IL the last place they do anything ELSE!


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## smoberly (Jul 6, 2004)

deathfromabove said:


> Well, D* has lost yet another customer. I have 2 HR10-250's. The first was purchased the 1st week of release. I was told that I was one of the first people in Chicago to buy one. In fact, when I called to activate it customer service didn't even have instructions. They had to call me back! The second, I bought last year when I moved because I was promised a "free" upgrade to a new MPEG-4 HD machine.
> 
> So here's where things stand. To date there is no evidence of a 6.3 upgrade on any of my machines. Customer service doesn't know a thing about the "free" upgrade. All this time FIOSTV is offering me some really great deals. My friends rave about the picture and customer service. So, since D* is stuck in some type of customer service and technology wasteland, I'm gone. Verizon comes tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Would you like to sell one of your boxes?


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## Brewer4 (May 6, 2004)

I can definately say leaving if 6.3 never came out after all the talk but its actually out there and coming. My 2 units dont have it yet but its gonna happen. I for one am happy with dealing with rentention, my 2 HR10's, and my one virtually free HR20. Wish the MPEG4 locals had better quality and OTA turned on in my HR20 but still pretty happy with D*.


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## october271986 (Sep 18, 2005)

deathfromabove said:


> I left D* because their business model rewards their most recent customers. At some point someone at D* should have asked, what should we do for all of those customers who were early adopters of the technology and are sitting on our oldest boxes? My earliest unit is perhaps 2 years old now. All of the pictures that we are receiving on these boxes are inferior. Sure I dropped a grand on the box. But I have 4 times that invested in new HD TV's! I rather sign up with another company with better service and a better picture, than sit around hoping D* will take care of me. So, yeah it's important to me that my software be updated first. That's my point.


Directv does have a problem and that is they do not direct thier "A-list" customers to their customer retention line.
I had the same problem as you, death from above, until I called their customer retention line.

Every time I called customer service (800-DIRECTV), I received someone who was not helpful. I was repeatedly told I needed to pay full price for the Directv plus HDDVR - HR-20 - in order to receive local channels.

When I called customer retention (I found the number on this message board) I got the free replacement of my HR-10. 1 800 824 9081 is the customer retention number.

However, I actually do not care for the HR-20. It doesn't offer the features of a stand-alone TV and the interface is not as elegant as the Directv tivo. I might be ready to switch after football season.

What is FIOS-TV? I am in an apartment building that has RCN. Does that prevent me from getting FIOS-TV?


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## october271986 (Sep 18, 2005)

deathfromabove said:


> I left D* because their business model rewards their most recent customers. At some point someone at D* should have asked, what should we do for all of those customers who were early adopters of the technology and are sitting on our oldest boxes? My earliest unit is perhaps 2 years old now. All of the pictures that we are receiving on these boxes are inferior. Sure I dropped a grand on the box. But I have 4 times that invested in new HD TV's! I rather sign up with another company with better service and a better picture, than sit around hoping D* will take care of me. So, yeah it's important to me that my software be updated first. That's my point.


Directv does have a problem and that is they do not direct thier "A-list" customers to their customer retention line.
I had the same problem as you, death from above, until I called their customer retention line.

Every time I called customer service (800-DIRECTV), I spoke with someone who was not helpful. I was repeatedly told I needed to pay full price for the Directv plus HDDVR - HR-20 - in order to receive local channels.

When I called customer retention (I found the number on this message board) I got the free replacement of my HR-10. 1 800 824 9081 is the customer retention number.

However, I actually do not care for the HR-20. It doesn't offer the features of a stand-alone TV and the interface is not as elegant as the Directv tivo. I might be ready to switch after football season.

What is FIOS-TV? I am in an apartment building that has RCN. Does that prevent me from getting FIOS-TV?


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

deathfromabove said:


> I left D* because their business model rewards their most recent customers.


That hasn't been my experience lately. I've been with D* for 8 and 3/4 years and I took advantage of the $299-$100MIR deal on the HR10-250 a year ago and just had the HR20-700 installed last week free. Sorry your experience hasn't been similar.

I definitely see a shift in the business model to accommodate and reward long-time customers with a good history.

And, no I don't have 6.3a on my HR10-250 yet, but I'm not leaving over it. When my commitment is up on it in August 2006 on that unit, I'll probably swap it out for another HR20-700.

FIOS isn't in my area yet and Time-Warner doesn't offer FOX or CBS in HD and neither will have Sunday Ticket until 2010. I'm willing to wait until the MPEG-4 switchover is completed and make my evaluation of D*. Quite frankly, there just ain't much competition in my area.


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## EMoMoney (Oct 30, 2001)

october271986 said:


> What is FIOS-TV? I am in an apartment building that has RCN. Does that prevent me from getting FIOS-TV?


http://www22.verizon.com/content/ConsumerFios/


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Anyone find it odd... 

That the OP.. signed-up back in JUne 2005.... and just now re-surfaces.... but disappears once we called the bluff on the FIOS in Chicago thing... 

And the newest poster, singedup also back in 2005... and also lives in Chicago (the RSN in the apartment reference).... but is just now posting...

Sorry... I am on a conspiracy kick tonight.


FIOS is a Verison offering to provide TV/Internet/Phone via Fiber Optics
AT&T has a similar offerings, but it is not available in IL yet...

And it will probably be a while before it penetrates in to the Chicago city limits, and then your apartment get's retro-fitted to support it. If they can get out of their exclusivity contract with RSN


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## deathfromabove (Jun 29, 2005)

Earl,

You obviously are shrewd, intelligent, and omniscient. Thanks for the slam. I certainly hope that you feel better. FYI, feel free to reread my original message. You might learn something.

1) I haven't posted, because frankly I don't feel the need to have 9,738 posts and act like I am the source of all knowledge. If I have some thing worthwhile to say, I say it. You might learn something.

2) I purchased my first unit, yes in Chicago. I lived in Milwaukee and they didn't have units there. So I drove 95 miles for the unit. By the way I also had to drive 95 miles twice to exchange both units. I purchased the unit from Best Buy near Sam's Wine and Spirits on North Marcey Street. (Anybody from Chicago care to verify this?) Earl, I could give you the street address, but then you would accuse me of just looking up the address on the website. So, a store in the same neighborhood is something in your omniscience you can't argue with.

3.) I stated I bought the second when I moved. I live in McLean, VA now. By the way, Verizon FIOS and FIOS TV are here and in much of Northern, VA.

4.) Apartment? Never said I was in an apartment. Your making this up.

5.) I have read many of your posts over the past year and frankly, you're being used by D*. 

I really expected more from you than a personal attack. Did your dog bite you or something? Just relax.

Don't throw rocks if you live in a glass house Earl.

Ken 
McLean, VA


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

deathfromabove said:


> I have read many of your posts over the past year and frankly, you're being used by D*


If what you say is true, when you attacked DirecTV how could you not have expected that he would attack you?

Your surprise is surprising.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

deathfromabove said:


> Earl,
> 
> You obviously are shrewd, intelligent, and omniscient. Thanks for the slam. I certainly hope that you feel better. FYI, feel free to reread my original message. You might learn something.
> 
> ...


Ahh... Thanks ken..

But if you have been around these boards for that many years... you will know what I was referring to is a very common trend in forum land...
Sleeper accounts... they sit dormant for years on end...

So glad you came out to clear the air...

As for the Best Buy near Sam's... yes I know where it is..

As for buying your second unit... Where in this thread did you state that you purchased in in McLean, VA? You said you purchased it when you moved... but you didn't clarify where too... or haev your profile updated with your current location.

I wasn't the first to question your FIOS reference... and you started the thread of as being Chicago based... not Milwaukee

The apartment was in reference to the most recent poster... as you asked me to.. read.

And as for my posts.... and being used by DirecTV...... I don't see them pushing the buttons on the keyboard or leaning over my sholders... last time I checked... I am the one controling the keyboard and typing the words.

As as for the glass house... sorry nah... plaster and paint... glass would not stand up to well the Chicago weather...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Out of curiosity... when has DirecTV's "model" changed...

The "rewarding" of new customers has been pretty much consistant over the last 10+ years... new customers always get better deals then existing one...

That is pretty much "standard" in most of these business... Dish, Comcast, Time Warner, Cell Companies, you name it.... the NEW customers are the ones that get the better deals and offers...

Do you think FIOS is going to any different in the long run?


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Do you think FIOS is going to any different in the long run?


Yes - more HD content, better pq, super-fast internet access, unlimited phone usage and savings through "bundled pricing". Fios tv has raised the HD bar so all of us HD fanatics will benefit in the long run.

I felt the op's anger when I left for Comcast in February. I started similar threads mainly because I was upset at spending $2000 on 2 hr10s and COUNTLESS hours messing with several OTA antennas (and never getting a consistent signal) as well as dealing with the "please wait" message every time I tryed to record a program.

Over time I have lost my anger and actually am grateful to D* for forcing my hand to leave by not adding content, reducing pq and not updating the hr10.

Because of that, I once again enjoy watching sd and hd programming and using my hd dvrs (moto6412, sony hdd500 and rca2160).

Thank you D*!!


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

I think every company I know rewards new customers only. D* acts like every other cable or cell phone company I know. If you want the deal you have to switch carriers every couple of years. I don't have the enthusiasm to play that game.

I have been with D* 11 years and over the last 2 years they have gotten my attention because their service sucks. The PQ stinks, their customer service is stupid and they lie and lastly these audio and video glitches are ridiculous. Their lack of HD channels like Starz, Cinemax and Move Channel also bug me. Their latest stunt to pull HD channels for the NFL games is another BS deal. D* obviously took lessons from my cable company on how to be arrogant and piss all over the customer.

I commend DeathFromAbove for making the switch. If more folks did the same eventually D* would have to fix their issues.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

dishrich said:


> OK, I'm confused - since Verizon does NOT service any of Chicago, (AT&T) I'm assuming you live _somewhere_ in the vicinity. You mind telling us what city you do live in - or do you even live in IL anymore?
> 
> I'm asking because I figured IL would be the LAST place Verizon would be doing FIOS - since they make IL the last place they do anything ELSE!


NO!!! Maine will be the LAST place Verizon installs FIOS and the world will probably end long before they ever start even planning to do it.

Stupid *@&$(*& @&#$*&@*(#$& (@$*(&@#(&$ Verizon... Actually - I'm less unhappy with D* than I used to be, but I sure like the idea of increased competition. It keeps everybody honest.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

fastep said:


> Yes - more HD content, better pq, super-fast internet access, unlimited phone usage and savings through "bundled pricing". Fios tv has raised the HD bar so all of us HD fanatics will benefit in the long run.


I was referring the preferred treatment to NEW customers, vs existing customers..


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## markrsmith83 (Jan 27, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Anyone find it odd...
> 
> That the OP.. signed-up back in JUne 2005.... and just now re-surfaces.... but disappears once we called the bluff on the FIOS in Chicago thing...
> 
> ...


Earl, The OP represents accurately the feelings of many of us who have not posted about leaving. (Well, not about the not waiting any more for 6.3, though I don't have it yet either)


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## oosik77 (Nov 22, 1999)

Got 6.3 on one of my 2 units last night. Overall I'm happy enough with Dtv for now. When they have programming the HR10-250 can't get and they don't have a solution with Tivo software then I'll be off to the S3 and Cox. It's just that simple for me.


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> I was referring the preferred treatment to NEW customers, vs existing customers..


I know. I just think that the only customer treatment that means anything is delivering the most bang for the buck.

I'm just glad many of us have other options. It's exercising those options that seems difficult for many people. I believe that's because of complacency and a fear of change.

I commend the op for pulling the trigger and bettering his tv viewing experience. Life is too short to wait for what others have made available to the consumer today.

I don't know what the future holds for hd content and quality, but my bet is on cable and FIoS TV to lead the way. Just ask Murdoch.......


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## mluntz (Jul 25, 2006)

Heres the situation as I see it:

1. We have thousands of $$$ invested in equipment. What do we do with all these useless doorstops if we dump our service? (Ebay maybe)

2. The biggest problem for me is the football. This is where they have most of us by the **alls.

3. All they seem to care about is local channels. I have OTA and could care less.

4. We basically watch mostly movies and sports. How about Starz, Cinemax, and the Movie Channel HD? Everyone else has it!

5.New customers for the most part get all the deals. They don't even communicate with long standing customers or offer them anything. I've been with DTV for 10 years!

6. I didn't really care about any of this until I made the switch to HD about a year ago. I want to be able to enjoy what I paid for!

7. Fios is now available where I live. It really looks tempting. Their lineup is much better, and I can bundle TV, phone, and internet into one package. You can also record a show and watch it on any TV in the house.

Maybe I'll suspend my account after football season, and give it a try. I want more choices, and right now DTV is not giving me any.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

My few cents...

FIOS is available in our area, though not on my block for a few months. The quality of both SD and HD feeds are indeed better than we currently see on DirecTV. They're offering aggressive pricing to compete against cable and satellite. Bundling is not a big deal for me one way or the other, but it may be for some.

However, Verizon's customer service is nowhere near DirecTV's. Also, their DVR has many "issues" and very little HD space for recording. (The Tivo S3 w/ cablecard is an option, though, if a pricey one.) 

Most importantly for me, they do not offer any out-of-market sports packages. I could actually live without the Sunday Ticket, but not without the MLB/NHL/NBA/College packages. Unless and until they get those, I simply can't consider FIOS as an option.

I've been a subscriber to DirecTV almost since they began. There's lots to be unhappy with them about...their picture quality on both SD and HD feeds is mediocre, I'm not pleased that they are no longer offering Tivo devices, and their installation contractor in this area is horrible. However, in my experience, their service is still ahead of the phone and cable companies here, and they offer the most programming for out-of-market sports fans by quite a bit. 

I will be watching what happens in the next year or so with the added capacity. If it turns out that FIOS or cable is better for my needs, I'll switch. But I know enough to understand that the grass is not always greener on the other side. For now, I'm staying with DirecTV, but I have at least begun to consider leaving...which I wouldn't really have done previously.


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## deathfromabove (Jun 29, 2005)

I think that this thread is right on target. I loved D* up until the point I became an HD customer. SD D* was a quantam leap beyond what cable offered 10 years ago. On a CRT tube, D* still offers the best picture. As for HD that's another story.

1) Not all channels are compressed equally. Try watching Fuse (339) then look at another channel. The variety of PQ across D*SD is absolutely astounding.

2) The roll out HD PQ was far superior to what we are watching now. Yes, they changed the compression.

3) The HD channel package is totally worthless! Anyone else notice that the number of repeated shows are way up and the number of new shows are way down?

4) D8 seems to have lost its way.

Like they said on my airline flight, "we know that you have a choice of TV providers and we are glad that you chose FIOS." Actually, I am taking dramatic license here.

PS: Earl do you really believe that this forum is infected by a bunch of sleeper agents? 

Ken


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

deathfromabove said:


> PS: Earl do you really believe that this forum is infected by a bunch of sleeper agents?


 From what I have seen being a mod in the other forum..... yes...
I do think some people have opened multiple accounts, way back when so they can use them at a later time.

It wasn't a personal attack on you, and I think I just caught your thread on a bad night... but it was just odd that two users post in the same thread, that opened accounts so long ago... and haven't posted since...

It is the similar pattern.... so my apologize to you.


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## mdh333 (Dec 9, 2002)

There is no doubt that DTV needs to work on it's HD offerings, and picture quality as more and more people view the picture on larger and better sets. (btw, watching anything that's SD quality on my 50" plasma is torture...I have a new TV, and effectively many less channels)

But so does everyone else. I started another thread asking people about other HD offerings, and there really don't seem to be many that are offered by everyone. The other movie channel HD verisons really seem to be the most we're missing.

I can't get Verizon's website to work right now, but when I looked earlier today I don't think FIOS had many more channels that DTV, just a couple.

Of course, if DTV's business model is just delivering more and better locals to everyone, then they will lose the high-end market...and maybe that's OK with them. There is quite a bit of rural America that FIOS and the best digital cable offerings aren't going to be going to any time soon. I don't know DTV's plans for future growth...but maybe that's it.

It would lead to me leaving (and probably many of you), but right now there aren't many better options...the options have just closed the gap (and sometimes passed) DTV - but there is no clear leader.


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## Cajunclicker (Dec 31, 2003)

My neighbor just purchased a Series 3 TiVo and is getting Verizon FiosTV installed. I'm interested to see his experience. I LOVE the TiVo interface but want more HD!


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## JoeSchueller (Jun 16, 2004)

I see all the FIOS hype, but does Verizon have a CableCard offering? How do you get around the Motorola box? Given that they are advertising 30mbps speed, doesn't that mean that they're using a "switched" architecture where only the channels you are watching are pushed thru, or are they mux'ing the signal? ATSC provides for 19mbps for OTA, right, so how can you get a bunch of channels on a 30mbps line without either switching or mux'ing? If it is switched, there's no way to use it w/ an S3, right? If it is MUX'ed on the fiber line, does it come out the other end like coax from the cableco? I just don't understand how they have this set up and I can't see how you could bypass the Motorola box to take advantage of the S3. (Not to mention, it sounds expensive)


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Joe,

Can't answer your technical questions, but yes, Verizon does offer cable cards for FIOS-TV.



JoeSchueller said:


> I see all the FIOS hype, but does Verizon have a CableCard offering? How do you get around the Motorola box? Given that they are advertising 30mbps speed, doesn't that mean that they're using a "switched" architecture where only the channels you are watching are pushed thru, or are they mux'ing the signal? ATSC provides for 19mbps for OTA, right, so how can you get a bunch of channels on a 30mbps line without either switching or mux'ing? If it is switched, there's no way to use it w/ an S3, right? If it is MUX'ed on the fiber line, does it come out the other end like coax from the cableco? I just don't understand how they have this set up and I can't see how you could bypass the Motorola box to take advantage of the S3. (Not to mention, it sounds expensive)


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

mdh333 said:


> I started another thread asking people about other HD offerings, and there really don't seem to be many that are offered by everyone. The other movie channel HD verisons really seem to be the most we're missing.
> 
> I can't get Verizon's website to work right now, but when I looked earlier today I don't think FIOS had many more channels that DTV, just a couple.
> 
> .


More than just a couple and more importantly, higher resolution PQ.

In addition to all the hd channels D* offers, Verizon FiOS (at least in my area) offers all Washington DC and Baltimore hd locals (8 total local HD channels), Nat Geo HD, Cinemax HD, Starz HD, The Movie Channel HD, MTV HD, NFLHD, Wealth HD and will be adding HGTV HD and FOOD HD within 60 days (according to Verizon CS).

The reason I feel FiOS tv will be a leader in HDTV is because they appear to have the bandwidth to continue to add HD channels without down-rezzing pq. I'm curious to see how D*, E* and cable will battle for HDTV share.


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## Mikehdtv (Feb 18, 2004)

Ken, your points are right on the money and well taken.

Don't worry about Earl, he spends more time on the internet than Mark Foley.


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## Matrix585 (Apr 19, 2003)

Ummm, betterdeadthanKen, to use your own words in your rebuttal to Earl: "FYI, feel free to reread my original message." Please show me in your original post that 1) You now live in Virginia (you know, where Verizon/Bell Atlantic is the RBOC) and 2) that you actually lived in Milwaukee and not Chicago. 

As a point of disclosure, I certainly have a vested interest in Verizon and applaud you as an early adopter of FIOS, but your original email was misleading. 

I also find it quite amusing that you are singing the praises of Ma Bell....a phone company monopoly when your choice of DirecTV and early adopter on D's HD Tivo box clearly suggests someone much more willing to take risk....or at least use MCI (lol...that was before this year, that is). 

For my part, what your rant fails to recognize is my biggest selling point - the Tivo interface. Frankly, I don't care about MPEG-4 as I much prefer the uncompress OTA HD signal. And last time I checked, the HR10 is the only one to seamless integrate a dual tuner with OTA in an HD Tivo format. 

Finally, for those that feel burned that they weren't first in line for 6.3, you obviously never had a standard def D Tivo which has had folders for what Earl....2 years now? An extra week to wait.... 

Guess you're really pissed when your bank gives that free toaster to that new account and your loyal service gets nothing but service fees. 

Earl, you're probably a shill, but you do give this fool hope!


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Matrix585 said:


> Earl, you're probably a shill, but you do give this fool hope!


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

fastep said:


> I know. I just think that the only customer treatment that means anything is delivering the most bang for the buck.
> 
> I'm just glad many of us have other options. It's exercising those options that seems difficult for many people. I believe that's because of complacency and a fear of change.
> 
> ...


I used to argue Fastep's anti-directv views into the ground when he was referring to dish... but since Fios offers cable card and the series 3 is out, I can't argue one darn thing!

Bravo TiVo for giving us a choice to keep TiVo with HD and drop direcTV!


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## thebishman (Aug 20, 2005)

JoeSchueller said:


> I see all the FIOS hype, but does Verizon have a CableCard offering? How do you get around the Motorola box? Given that they are advertising 30mbps speed, doesn't that mean that they're using a "switched" architecture where only the channels you are watching are pushed thru, or are they mux'ing the signal? ATSC provides for 19mbps for OTA, right, so how can you get a bunch of channels on a 30mbps line without either switching or mux'ing? If it is switched, there's no way to use it w/ an S3, right? If it is MUX'ed on the fiber line, does it come out the other end like coax from the cableco? I just don't understand how they have this set up and I can't see how you could bypass the Motorola box to take advantage of the S3. (Not to mention, it sounds expensive)


Verizon FIOS has by all accounts of users:
Lower costs;
Much better quality than Directv;
More HD choices.

You are NOT restricted to just 30Mbps. That's your internet speed should you want it that fast. The fibre to your house has huge bandwidth, so Verizon in fact do not use IPTV type switching. All of the channels are available, and it is the set-top box which switches; not some central location. The fibre terminates in a box on the outside, and all of the 'signal' is then routed over existing coax or Cat 5.

If I had FIOS available in my area I'd drop Directv today.
Bish


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## rmax (Mar 10, 2005)

Mikehdtv said:


> Ken, your points are right on the money and well taken.
> 
> Don't worry about Earl, he spends more time on the internet than Mark Foley.


That's Funny..almost fell out of my chair when I read that


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## setanta (Mar 31, 2004)

I cancelled D* on Saturday and I must say it felt really good. I've swapped out my crappy old HR10s for two brand spanking new Tivo Series 3s. I thought back to when I signed up for D* in the first place it was for one thing and one thing only - Tivo ! Remember this is when it was the only way to get a guide, two tuners and simple recording. Obviously when the HR10 came out I got two as it was the only game in town for same with HD. Now with cablecard I'm back on track with Tivo and not stuck on a road to nowhere with D*. It's amazing how much crap you get used to because you have no options.. Unbearably slow menus, absolute garbage for OTA, noise like a plane taking off, no Native Passthough, declining picture quality (they thought we wouldn't notice) and no future. 

I never ended up getting 6.3 (2 years late) but what would it have solved? Speed and Folders (come on is that what Tivo is all about). How about (unhacked), Ethernet/IP, how about futures with NetFlix, how about a quality piece of HT equipment. 

This forum has been great and although I rarely post I have found many useful tips here over the years. It was fun being in the 20's in dswallow's first to have HD Tivo list. But seriously now after two plus years of insult from D* isn't about time to recognize that this forum is supposed to be Tivo first and D* second. Tivo has moved on. D* is moving someplace else. I've gone with Tivo. Long live Tivo


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Do you think FIOS is going to any different in the long run?


I've had FiOS Internet now for almost a year. Cheaper than Comcast. Faster than Comcast. 100% reliable - it's never gone down, and Comcast went down at least monthly for some period of time.

Just based on this, it's clear the FiOS infrastructure is far superior to anything that has come before it.

For TV, they have a much larger line up, with tons more HD, and it's substantially cheaper than DirecTV. And I can get the Series 3 Tivo, without any interference from anyone else.

So yes, it will be substantially different - no one forcing a crappy DVR down my throat, extremely competitive HD lineup and pricing, and superior reliability. I don't really need much else.

I'll be switching to FiOS TV the second it's available. In the mean time, if Comcast can get out here with cable cards, I'll be going to them in the mean time.

DirecTV has just failed. Miserably. On all fronts.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

setanta said:


> Unbearably slow menus, absolute garbage for OTA, noise like a plane taking off, no Native Passthough, declining picture quality (they thought we wouldn't notice) and no future.


As far as OTA ...if you're in an area that gets a good signal, it's fantastic. And once they get 6.3 working properly, the slow menu thing will be in the past ...I'll give you the "no native passthrough and declining PQ" but ...."_noise like a plane taking off?"_ 

Do you live near an airport?


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## setanta (Mar 31, 2004)

Sir_whinealot said:


> As far as OTA ...if you're in an area that gets a good signal, it's fantastic. And once they get 6.3 working properly, the slow menu thing will be in the past ...I'll give you the "no native passthrough and declining PQ" but ...."_noise like a plane taking off?"_
> 
> Do you live near an airport?


Nowhere near an airport but one of my HR10s was in a closet and the other in my garage with component over coax up to my bedroom. Yes they were both that loud. The new S3 is in my bedroom now and I cannot hear it at all from across the room.

Now as far as OTA goes, are you serious? The OTA tuner on the HR10 is and always was garbage. I actually live less than 5 miles from Sutro in SF with a perfectly clear line of sight, zero multipath and an antenna on the roof to boot. In order to get OTA to work I have used various combinations of radio shack attenuators in line and only then to make sure I get FOX cleanly while giving up completely on CBS and ABC (got them with waivers from D* from LA). How do I know it's garbage, because I had a Sony HD tuner before there was a Tivo option and every channel that I could receive came in perfectly. Now I have two S3s and every channel comes in perfectly >95% on everything. Sorry mate the OTA sucks in the HR10, always has. Search this forum, there have been dozens of threads about how bad it is


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

setanta said:


> I cancelled D* on Saturday and I must say it felt really good. I've swapped out my crappy old HR10s for two brand spanking new Tivo Series 3s. I thought back to when I signed up for D* in the first place it was for one thing and one thing only - Tivo !


When you cancel, be sure to tell them exactly WHY you are cancelling!


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Mikehdtv said:


> ...Don't worry about Earl, he spends more time on the internet than Mark Foley.


But I think he types with both hands


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

setanta said:


> ...The OTA tuner on the HR10 is and always was garbage...Search this forum, there have been dozens of threads about how bad it is


I would never argue that the HR10's tuner is not inferior to a garden-variety HDTV tuner, it usually is inferior. But garbage? I think I can argue that one pretty vigorously. The fact that all 3 of my HR10's get perfect reception 99.999% of the time means that the OTA tuner is very capable and very reliable, and therefore can't be considered "garbage". It does take a little TLC and is more critical to set up, and will definitely vex those in a marginal reception area somewhat more than other tuners will, but it works just fine for most people.

It's a poor workman that blames his tools.


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## setanta (Mar 31, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> It does take a little TLC and is more critical to set up, and will definitely vex those in a marginal reception area somewhat more than other tuners will, but it works just fine for most people.
> 
> It's a poor workman that blames his tools.


I guess you didn't read my post. I'm not in a marginal reception area at all. If anything I get way too strong a signal for the crappy OTA tuner in the HR10 to handle hence the attentuators. Don't you think Tivo knows this and made sure to fix the OTA in the S3. People have been complaining for years about OTA in the HR10. Just because it works for you and maybe even most people doesn't mean it's not garbage. It's garbage because it doesn't work in so many other environments where other OTA receivers always work fine. Imagine if a model of car worked like that and some percentage of them couldn't break on the freeway. I think most people would conclude the car had garbage breaks.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> You are certainly entitled to that as a reason, but guess what...as someone who subscribed to DISH for 8 years and who subscribed to cable and worked in the cable industry for another 9, you won't find a different attitude anywhere else. All vendors are trying to woo those who are not yet their customers, and they all put much less emphasis on keeping them. That's just the way the world goes around. So spite seems like a weak argument.
> 
> DTV isn't perfect, in fact they have a few key problems they don't seem to know how to deal with very well. But actually, DTV is the only one who gave me PVRs for free (and as an existing customer) and gave me Showtime for 3 months without me even asking them, just because I paid my bill on time for the first 12 months. Their retention department seems to bend over backwards at the drop of a remote. I rank them well above anyone else for attending to existing customers, even if they are, as a company, ham-handed and can't seem to find their dicks in the dark.
> 
> Speaking of which, maybe you should just shut your TV off and sit there in the dark. That'll show everybody.


This is right. All of these companies bend over backwards to do whatever it takes for the new customer, but not the older customer. Personally, I think Directv is heads and tails better than Dish when it comes to retention. Dish is the worst I've ever seen. After 8 years they wouldn't even LET ME BUY a dual tuner DVR from them! Forget ever getting anything ever at a reduced rate like Directv gave me with the $200 HR10-250 deal. There's NO way that'd happen at Dish. I was so happy to get away from Dish that I can honestly say I'll never go back after the way they treated me.

I do think Directv has really screwed over the HR10 owners though. Waiting 2 years for software that should have shipped with the first box is ridiculous, and then it has problems!? I'll say this, if they won't give me an HR20 for free when I call up to get one, I'm leaving them. I'm not jumping through any hoops or calling customer retention to get the deal either. They noted in my account that I was to get a free HR20 when it came out because that was the deal for everyone who owned an HR10. If they come back with anything other than $20 for S/H I'm gone. I'll switch to cable until I can be considered a new customer again with Directv.


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## SeeAndAvoid (Dec 1, 2000)

Add me to that list of been registered for a while, but not posted for a while, but I read
it every so often. No, I dont have multiple accounts.

I just recently quit DTV, so this topic got my attention. Someone on here said TELL them why you're quitting....one thing I definately mentioned was their move away from Tivo was the beginning of the end for me. Mainly, to me anyway, they started feeling like the cable companies I loathed 11 years ago when I first got DTV. Now, ironically, I went back to cable mainly over HDTV issues. I bought my second HDTV and thought it was silly not to have HD service (basically nil OTA), and DTV's version didn't look worth the effort. A couple of days before I cancelled their customer retention people wouldn't offer me the new HD unit as it was only available in LA or some nonsense. Funny how a couple of days later when I cancelled they tried to keep me by offering a free HR20, Comcast would give me 2 free HD DVR's (no Tivo, but neither was DTV's).

Main reason I'm checking out this board again is now that I'm selling my R10, and having to suffer though this Motorola DCT6412, I was missing Tivo, so I bought a new Series2 and it's pretty sweet. Would I have bought it if it wasn't priced less than the current rebate? 
(A vendor on Tivo's website is selling it for less than $150, if any of you are thinking of getting one - that's better than Tivo's "free" 80hr unit - and you can still get the multi-unit discount, unlike one you'd buy direct from Tivo) Maybe, maybe not. With my old DTivo and this R10, I could never do MRV and TTG, and I like it. Probably like other Comcast customers, I cant wait for the possibility of Tivo software loaded on this 6412, but I seriously doubt it'll have MRV/TTG. It is HD after all.

Also selling off my UltimateTV unit, can't believe what they're getting on eBay for these. As much as I like Tivo, UTV was sure a lot more stable - didnt crash once. Sure cant say that about the DTivo (SATT60) and R10. 
Anyway, I'm back with Tivo, don't mind giving them my money _directly_ (not through DTV), and expect to be as happy with their service as I was in the past.

Chris


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

deathfromabove said:


> Well, D* has lost yet another customer. I have 2 HR10-250's. The first was purchased the 1st week of release. I was told that I was one of the first people in Chicago to buy one. In fact, when I called to activate it customer service didn't even have instructions. They had to call me back! The second, I bought last year when I moved because I was promised a "free" upgrade to a new MPEG-4 HD machine.
> 
> So here's where things stand. To date there is no evidence of a 6.3 upgrade on any of my machines. Customer service doesn't know a thing about the "free" upgrade. All this time FIOSTV is offering me some really great deals. My friends rave about the picture and customer service. So, since D* is stuck in some type of customer service and technology wasteland, I'm gone. Verizon comes tomorrow.
> 
> ...


I think its obvious that there is a hold on release of 6.3, probably sorting out some issues with it.

I can wait. No big deal. You want to be rewarded with a buggy 6.3?


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

Matrix585 said:


> <snip>For my part, what your rant fails to recognize is my biggest selling point - the Tivo interface. Frankly, I don't care about MPEG-4 as I much prefer the uncompress OTA HD signal. And last time I checked, the HR10 is the only one to seamless integrate a dual tuner with OTA in an HD Tivo format.


I think you hit the nail on the head here. No other way to record OTA HD yet than the HR10-250 (except perhaps on a computer which I don't want to do).

OTA, by the way, is MPEG-2 encoded, just like the national DirecTV feeds. OTA just hasn't downrezzed their images like DirecTV.


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

kbohip said:


> I'll switch to cable until I can be considered a new customer again with Directv.


And if your cable experience turns out as good as mine, it'll probably be some time before you consider D* again (if ever). Cable and FiOS TV are the future for HD television in terms of pq and bundled pricing (with high-speed internet and phone). In addition, more dvr choices will be available and will only be compatible with cable systems (like the tivo3, sony dhg and soon to be released panasonic triple tuner hd dvr).

Satellite suffers from bandwidth restrictions and selective product offerings. I do credit satellite however for helping to keep current and future pricing in check especially as they lose market share over the next several years.


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

ShiningBengal said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head here. No other way to record OTA HD yet than the HR10-250 (except perhaps on a computer which I don't want to do).
> 
> OTA, by the way, is MPEG-2 encoded, just like the national DirecTV feeds. OTA just hasn't downrezzed their images like DirecTV.


Not true. E*'s vip622 and sony dhg dvrs both have integrated OTA tuners to allow for OTA HD recording. I have also used the rca2160 to record OTA HD from my mits tv via firewire.

In addition, I have compared OTA HD with local cable HD using the sony DHG and at least to me, the cable-fed local HD show seemed better than OTA (brighter and sharper). I am not sure why but I'm glad I don't need to rely on OTA for local hd programming anymore.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

setanta said:


> Nowhere near an airport but one of my HR10s was in a closet and the other in my garage with component over coax up to my bedroom. Yes they were both that loud. The new S3 is in my bedroom now and I cannot hear it at all from across the room.
> 
> Now as far as OTA goes, are you serious? The OTA tuner on the HR10 is and always was garbage. I actually live less than 5 miles from Sutro in SF with a perfectly clear line of sight, zero multipath and an antenna on the roof to boot. In order to get OTA to work I have used various combinations of radio shack attenuators in line and only then to make sure I get FOX cleanly while giving up completely on CBS and ABC (got them with waivers from D* from LA). How do I know it's garbage, because I had a Sony HD tuner before there was a Tivo option and every channel that I could receive came in perfectly. Now I have two S3s and every channel comes in perfectly >95% on everything. Sorry mate the OTA sucks in the HR10, always has. Search this forum, there have been dozens of threads about how bad it is


Many, including myself and my two brothers and nephew who installed HR10's in completely differenty circumstances, have no issues with the OTA tuners in the HR10. I live 10 miles from the antenna farm in the Twin Cities and there is a group of 9 story high steel-reinforced concrete grain elevators 300 yards from my house blocking my antenna's "view" of those towers. My antenna is in my attic, with all the multipath that attic installations cause. I get ALL of the digital stations anywhere near me, including one in St. Cloud, MN (which I don't watch) that is 120 degrees azimuth from the line of sight to the Twin Cities antenna farm. They come in perfectly, even with a foot of snow on my roof.

How do you know you don't have multipath? Unless you live on a prairie without a tree, hill, or building in sight for 1000 yards, you have multipath. Clear line of sight doesn't eliminate ghosting (multipath). You can still get signals bounced off things not in the line of sight.

Many people who have had problems with the HR10 are actually overloading the tuners with a signal that is too strong.

That is not to say that tuners haven't improved in the 2 years since the HR10 was released. They have! But that doesn't mean that the OTA tuners in the HR10 are junk. They are not.

And your comment about how noisy the HR10's are is ridculous. There are only two moving parts in the HR10...an HDD and a fan. You now have a DVR with no HDD or fan, perhaps? As I am typing this, I am sitting in my bedroom, closer to the HR10 I use here than to my computer's tower case (which has two HDD's and one fan, and it is considerably louder than the HR10. In fact, I sleep with both the HR10 and my computer on...never turn either of them off.

If your HR10's are that loud, they are defective.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

fastep said:


> Not true. E*'s vip622 and sony dhg dvrs both have integrated OTA tuners to allow for OTA HD recording. I have also used the rca2160 to record OTA HD from my mits tv via firewire.
> 
> In addition, I have compared OTA HD with local cable HD using the sony DHG and at least to me, the cable-fed local HD show seemed better than OTA (brighter and sharper). I am not sure why but I'm glad I don't need to rely on OTA for local hd programming anymore.


Sorry. I should have added Dish to the list of DVR solutions I wouldn't consider.


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## setanta (Mar 31, 2004)

ShiningBengal said:


> Many, including myself and my two brothers and nephew who installed HR10's in completely differenty circumstances, have no issues with the OTA tuners in the HR10. I live 10 miles from the antenna farm in the Twin Cities and there is a group of 9 story high steel-reinforced concrete grain elevators 300 yards from my house blocking my antenna's "view" of those towers. My antenna is in my attic, with all the multipath that attic installations cause. I get ALL of the digital stations anywhere near me, including one in St. Cloud, MN (which I don't watch) that is 120 degrees azimuth from the line of sight to the Twin Cities antenna farm. They come in perfectly, even with a foot of snow on my roof.
> 
> How do you know you don't have multipath? Unless you live on a prairie without a tree, hill, or building in sight for 1000 yards, you have multipath. Clear line of sight doesn't eliminate ghosting (multipath). You can still get signals bounced off things not in the line of sight.
> 
> ...


I don't quite understand why anyone needs to defend a very sloppy piece of work (aka the OTA tuner in the HR10). Please explain why a Sony HD200 worked perfectly over three years ago? Two HR10s never worked on all stations no matter what I did with attenuators (of course my signal is too strong, duh!). Now I get two new S3s and they work perfectly. Just because it worked for you doesn't mean that it was well engineered and works in all locations regardless of multipath, overloaded signal or whatever. In my book that fault lies with a crappy OTA tuner (or internal cabling in the box itself, whatever).

As for the noise, if you think a $1000 piece of HT equipment should be audible from across the room, that's fine with me. If you like to sleep with a computer fan in your bedroom, knock yourself out. Personally, I'm much happier now that all my HT gear is quiet as a whisper.

The bottom line here is that for Tivo fans (and I thought that was what this forum was for), there is now a new platform in the S3 that fixes many of the deficiencies in the older HR10 and if it can be cost justified for people who care about getting the best out of Tivo then there really is no other game in town anymore. The HR10 is on it's last legs and this forum will barely exist in 6 months. Many people like myself will migrate over to the S3 forum and stay committed to Tivo while many others (some for very legtimate reasons) will need to stay with D* and switch to the HR20.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

setanta said:


> As for the noise, if you think a $1000 piece of HT equipment should be audible from across the room, that's fine with me. If you like to sleep with a computer fan in your bedroom, knock yourself out. Personally, I'm much happier now that all my HT gear is quiet as a whisper.


When I was a kid, I used to put a baseball card in the spokes of my bicycle wheel to get that _cool sound._ If you don't live near an airport, maybe you had a baseball card stuck in the fan and didn't realize it? 

A hd and a fan are just that ....no matter if they're in an HR10, HR20, HDVR2, R15, or an S3. If the sound from your HR10 was like "a plane taking off," there was either something seriously wrong with it, or you're just exaggerating.


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## setanta (Mar 31, 2004)

Sir_whinealot said:


> or you're just exaggerating.


you think 

doesn't change the basic facts. Old HR10 noisy (way above my tolerance threshold). New S3 quiet, don't even know it's there.

'nuff said.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

setanta said:


> I guess you didn't read my post. I'm not in a marginal reception area at all. If anything I get way too strong a signal for the crappy OTA tuner in the HR10 to handle hence the attentuators. Don't you think Tivo knows this and made sure to fix the OTA in the S3. People have been complaining for years about OTA in the HR10. Just because it works for you and maybe even most people doesn't mean it's not garbage. It's garbage because it doesn't work in so many other environments where other OTA receivers always work fine. Imagine if a model of car worked like that and some percentage of them couldn't break on the freeway. I think most people would conclude the car had garbage breaks.


Well, I'm afraid you guessed wrong. But then I guess you didn't read mine. Either that, or you have a whacked-out definition of "garbage". To me, that would have to indicate some sort of universal flaw that affects most if not all users. But there is no flaw in the OTA tuner, and the issues surrounding it can be dealt with fairly easily for most situations, and even then, they don't affect more than a tiny fraction of users. If you think that tuner is bad, you should have dealt with the 1st-gen tuners from 1999 like some of us did, back when line-of-sight was absolutely imperative.

The HR10 very likely has a 3rg-gen tuner. Most 2004-2006 HDTVs have 4th-gen tuners, and the newer Zeniths and LGs have a 5th-gen tuner. As technology progresses, and it is rocketing forward in this area, things improve markedly from generation to generation, as witnessed by the 5th-gen tuners that are heads above anything before them.

The increase in reception capability is generally in how well a tuner actively EQ's out late-arriving copies of the signal (multipath rejection) and how wide the window of operation is. The tuner in the HR10 was the best of its day at one time, and better than the tuners that came before it, but it does seem unfortunate that they didn't incorporate a bit more advanced one into the HR10.

It's probably just due to timing. If the HR10 debuted just 3 months later, there would likely have been a tuner in it equivalent to the 4th-gens. The HR20 is rumored to have the 5th-gen NeXtWave tuner from LG/Zenith, which also wasn't available when the HR10 was designed. Timing...the most important thing about comedy.

So the tuner in the HR10 is comparitively inferior to that tuner, just like a 1983 BMW is compartively inferior to the BMWs of today. That hardly makes the 1983 BMW "garbage". Handled properly and in the right situation, either a 1983 BMW or a HR10 will serve you well, and handled improperly or in the wrong situation, a new BMW or a new HR20 will give you a lot of grief.

It's OK, you're allowed to vent. And I'm allowed to disagree with you. No worries.


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## setanta (Mar 31, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> The HR10 very likely has a 3rg-gen tuner. Most 2004-2006 HDTVs have 4th-gen tuners, and the newer Zeniths and LGs have a 5th-gen tuner. As technology progresses, and it is rocketing forward in this area, things improve markedly from generation to generation, as witnessed by the 5th-gen tuners that are heads above anything before them.
> 
> The increase in reception capability is generally in how well a tuner actively EQ's out late-arriving copies of the signal (multipath rejection) and how wide the window of operation is. The tuner in the HR10 was the best of its day at one time, and better than the tuners that came before it, but it does seem unfortunate that they didn't incorporate a bit more advanced one into the HR10.


Don't make me laugh please !

I has a Sony HD-200 for a year before I got the HD-Tivo (23 or something off the list). The Sony worked perfectly (had native passthrough too). I'll conceed that garbage is a little strong perhaps. BUT, poorly designed and badly executed in manufacturing. Let's put it this way, if an engineer working for me produced product like this they'd be on the street looking for a new job.

'nuff said.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Well, put me in the camp who has had absolutely no problems with the OTA tuners in the HR10-250. Definitely a better ATSC tuner than an early stand-alone Motorola box, though not quite as good as that built in to my Panny plasma.

It's not state of the art in late 2006, but it isn't garbage. At least for me


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