# WTF, Advertisments on Now Playing



## Blahman (Mar 4, 2002)

So, I went to my Now Playing list to watch a show, and f... you TiVo. Advertisments on my Now Playing list. This crap is out of hand.

Shrink the Size of the Advertisements on the Main Menu, and get them off the End of Show Pop-up and Now Playing Lists. Either that or make this crap free.

I have been a very big promoter of TiVo to my co-workers and friends. I will not ever promote TiVo, except in a negative manner until this crap ends.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

the sky is falling, the sky is falling. lol

big deal. I think TiVo added the ads very tastefully. ads are here to stay. This is an absolute non issue for me. My TiVo still functions every bit as it has when I bought it year ago. Heck it functions even better since then with all of the improvements with HME etc etc. If the ads bring revenue and allow TiVo the company to sustain profitability and therefore allows TiVo to continue to offer new products and make current products even better....Cheers to TiVo.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

I only see the Get Nailed ads with shows featuring hot women. Coincidence?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

The disappointing thing about ads in folders is that TiVo is now breaking their own interface paradigm to get better ad placement. The other menus are a collection of disparate items but Now Playing and Folders have always contained nothing but requested recordings. It's confusing and annoying to find something that you didn't request in a Now Play folder.

This is worrisome because my preference for TiVo is based in part on the fact that they've kept to certain standards that I've counted on to prevent ads from becoming too obtrusive. If they're willing to violate the paradigm that Now Playing is for recordings will they eventually violate the paradigm that they don't force you to view the advertisments?


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## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

Yeah! What BlackBetty said!


Bonanza


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## pigbat (Feb 19, 2004)

nrc said:


> This is worrisome because my preference for TiVo is based in part on the fact that they've kept to certain standards that I've counted on to prevent ads from becoming too obtrusive. If they're willing to violate the paradigm that Now Playing is for recordings will they eventually violate the paradigm that they don't force you to view the advertisments?


The current ads rarely bother me. I think Tivo knows forcing us to actually watch ads would be damaging to their business.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

BlackBetty said:


> the sky is falling, the sky is falling. lol
> 
> big deal. I think TiVo added the ads very tastefully. ads are here to stay. This is an absolute non issue for me. My TiVo still functions every bit as it has when I bought it year ago. Heck it functions even better since then with all of the improvements with HME etc etc. If the ads bring revenue and allow TiVo the company to sustain profitability and therefore allows TiVo to continue to offer new products and make current products even better....Cheers to TiVo.


The sky is not falling, but the ads are a big deal.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> The sky is not falling, but the ads are a big deal.


yah they have crept over the line with now playing ads. Which way does TiVo go from here? Still do we really need another thread?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

nrc said:


> The disappointing thing about ads in folders is that TiVo is now breaking their own interface paradigm to get better ad placement. The other menus are a collection of disparate items but Now Playing and Folders have always contained nothing but requested recordings. It's confusing and annoying to find something that you didn't request in a Now Play folder.
> 
> This is worrisome because my preference for TiVo is based in part on the fact that they've kept to certain standards that I've counted on to prevent ads from becoming too obtrusive. If they're willing to violate the paradigm that Now Playing is for recordings will they eventually violate the paradigm that they don't force you to view the advertisments?


I agree. It is a shame to see such a nice interface peppered with garbage.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

BlackBetty said:


> the sky is falling, the sky is falling. lol
> 
> big deal. I think TiVo added the ads very tastefully. ads are here to stay. This is an absolute non issue for me. My TiVo still functions every bit as it has when I bought it year ago. Heck it functions even better since then with all of the improvements with HME etc etc. If the ads bring revenue and allow TiVo the company to sustain profitability and therefore allows TiVo to continue to offer new products and make current products even better....Cheers to TiVo.


+1 :up:

Chicken Little... I was thinking the same thing...


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yah they have crept over the line with now playing ads. Which way does TiVo go from here. Still do we really need another thread?


Which is the official thread to discuss ad placement on the TiVo?


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

Time for folks to call, repeatedly, and ask about how to remove them. Enough calls will certainly tilt the balance away profit from ads to support expenses.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Blahman said:


> So, I went to my Now Playing list to watch a show, and f... you TiVo. Advertisments on my Now Playing list. This crap is out of hand.
> 
> Shrink the Size of the Advertisements on the Main Menu, and get them off the End of Show Pop-up and Now Playing Lists. Either that or make this crap free.
> 
> I have been a very big promoter of TiVo to my co-workers and friends. I will not ever promote TiVo, except in a negative manner until this crap ends.


Already being discussed.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=380568
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5849495#post5849495


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Which is the official thread to discuss ad placement on the TiVo?


the ones that are already started


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mchips said:


> +1 :up:
> 
> Chicken Little... I was thinking the same thing...


If a person decides to stop promoting a product because it no longer meets his standards, why is he labeled an extremist?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

scandia101 said:


> Already being discussed.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=380568
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5849495#post5849495


Maybe we should have an official thread so that everyone can stop berating people when they state their dissatisfaction with the ads. This topic is all over the place - just like the ads.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the ones that are already started


I don't see a sticky or an official thread, but maybe I'm just missing it. Could you point me to it?


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> If a person decides to stop promoting a product because it no longer meets his standards, why is he labeled an extremist?


Extremist? That's your word, not mine... 

But when you make a mountain out of a mole hill, there you have Chicken Little.

And it's not just that he's not going to promote it, but that he's only going to promote it in a negative manner, thus throwing all of the positive and good things out the window about TiVo and focusing and highlighting only this one negative aspect, which, btw, many of us don't see as negative... that is extreme... it's like throwing the baby out with the bath water...


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Maybe we should have an official thread so that everyone can stop berating people when they state their dissatisfaction with the ads. This topic is all over the place - just like the ads.


Unfortunately, the opposite is equally, if not more so, as true... when people express their satisfaction with something, they're belittled as well...


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mchips said:


> Extremist? That's your word, not mine...
> 
> But when you make a mountain out of a mole hill, there you have Chicken Little.


That's where I feel the the problem lies. Just because you, Black Betty, Zeo or anyone else believes that something is not a problem, does not mean that it isn't (a problem).


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> That's where I feel the the problem lies. Just because you, Black Betty, Zeo or anyone else believes that something is not a problem, does not mean that it isn't
> (a problem).


I updated that post, but I'll repeat my edit here since you may not have seen it...

It's not just that he's not going to promote it, but that he's only going to promote it in a negative manner, thus throwing all of the positive and good things out the window about TiVo and focusing and highlighting only this one negative aspect, which, btw, many of us don't see as negative... that is extreme... it's like throwing the baby out with the bath water...


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

mchips said:


> It's not just that he's not going to promote it, but that he's only going to promote it in a negative manner, thus throwing all of the positive and good things out the window about TiVo and focusing and highlighting only this one negative aspect, which, btw, many of us don't see as negative... that is extreme... it's like throwing the baby out with the bath water...


I'm starting to warm up to the ads (just the teensiest bit), but if his friends & coworkers were to sign up for this service because he talked TiVo up, and then saw this ad garbage, they might wonder what kind of person he was to not have mentioned this little detail about tasteless* ads plastered everywhere. Believe it or not, "Extreme" would actually be to start spreading negative word when you have said nothing in the past. His own personal reputition is on the line here for having said anything good about TiVo in the past!

* "Tasteless" here is a subjective term, obviously.

PPS: The only reason I'm warming up to the ads is I read reviews for DirecTV's R15...haha... us TiVo customer's have it good! (Until, of course, DirecTV & other competitors become better at creating software...)


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mchips said:


> I updated that post, but I'll repeat my edit here since you may not have seen it...
> 
> It's not just that he's not going to promote it, but that he's only going to promote it in a negative manner, thus throwing all of the positive and good things out the window about TiVo and focusing and highlighting only this one negative aspect, which, btw, many of us don't see as negative... that is extreme... it's like throwing the baby out with the bath water...


Maybe I'm strange, but when I don't like something, I don't promote it, and I sometimes put it down. That is what the original poster was stating (albeit harshly).

Question:Why was he compared to Chick Little?
Answer: To belittle the real issue at hand. The fact that some people hate the ads, and the direction that TiVo is going with them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> That's where I feel the the problem lies. Just because you, Black Betty, Zeo or anyone else believes that something is not a problem, does not mean that it isn't (a problem).


I am pretty sure the ads will be what TiVo makes of them - I doubt anyone takes anyone person's opinion here as the end result that will be.

Also you might notice I have a problem with ads in now playing as that puts the ads in too many places. Much like starting new threads puts the posts in too many places for any kind of real ongoing conversation to be complete


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Maybe I'm strange, but when I don't like something, I don't promote it, and I sometimes put it down. That is what the original poster was stating (albeit harshly).
> 
> Question:Why was he compared to Chick Little?
> Answer: To belittle the real issue at hand. The fact that some people hate the ads, and the direction that TiVo is going with them.


That's not unusual, and therefore I just take what people like that have to say with a grain of salt, knowing that if they don't like one thing, their review of the product is therefore probably really biased and overexaggerating the negative.

As far as your question, your answer is wrong...

And, because you said that, I'm never, ever speaking to you again except to tell you how much I hate you unless you take that crap back... there's nothing good about you anymore.

Obviously, I don't mean it, but hopefully you get my point.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

JaneiR36 said:


> ... PPS: The only reason I'm warming up to the ads is I read reviews for DirecTV's R15...haha... us TiVo customer's have it good! ...


...for the time being. Keep in mind that the ads started with a gold star on TiVo Central, and they have now made it into your Now Playing lists (as well as other places).


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> ...for the time being. Keep in mind that the ads started with a gold star on TiVo Central, and they have now made it into your Now Playing lists (as well as other places).


And they could be much, much, much worse and much more intrusive, but TiVo really is working to find the right balance... I feel TiVo almost needs to make it really bad, and then pull back, in order to give people a little better perspective...

Anyway, I feel this subject of ads on TiVo (and TV, and the Internet, and everywhere else) has been beaten to death on this forum, and in life. There are people that are going to complain about them no matter how few or unobtrusive they are.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

scandia101 said:


> Already being discussed.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=380568
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5849495#post5849495


As it well needs to be.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

RoyK said:


> As it well needs to be.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Langree said:


> I only see the Get Nailed ads with shows featuring hot women. Coincidence?


Your TiVo gets you?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

mchips said:


> . . . thus throwing all of the positive and good things out the window about TiVo and focusing and highlighting only this one negative aspect, which, btw, many of us don't see as negative . . .


Define "many."


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Yup, I had the "Get NAILED every weeknight" in kid zone.


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## visionary (May 31, 2006)

You all need to compare to what other DVR's are doing regarding ads before condeming anyone. Read their terms of service. They may suddenly have ten minutes of un-skippable political ads in front of every show you play instead of just an extra line in a menu, so don't be so quick to blast Tivo for making revenue. Now, if it goes too far save your yelling for then. Meanwhile, do check out others ad policies on their products, please.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

classicX said:


> Define "many."


A lot...


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## Luke M (Nov 5, 2002)

mchips said:


> And they could be much, much, much worse and much more intrusive, but TiVo really is working to find the right balance... I feel TiVo almost needs to make it really bad, and then pull back, in order to give people a little better perspective...


If Tivo is so desperate for incremental revenue that they are willing to tarnish their reputation in this way, that doesn't give much confidence that they will still be in business in a year or two.

Maybe it's no coincidence that they opened up "lifetime" sales again. A "going out of business" sale perhaps?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

visionary said:


> You all need to compare to what other DVR's are doing regarding ads before condeming anyone. Read their terms of service. They may suddenly have ten minutes of un-skippable political ads in front of every show you play instead of just an extra line in a menu, so don't be so quick to blast Tivo for making revenue. Now, if it goes too far save your yelling for then. Meanwhile, do check out others ad policies on their products, please.


No I don't. I don't care what other DVRs are doing regarding ads. I don't have other DVRs. If we get un-skippable ads I won't have TiVo either. Not that I expect that we will - TiVo isn't THAT dumb.


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## Luke M (Nov 5, 2002)

visionary said:


> You all need to compare to what other DVR's are doing regarding ads before condeming anyone. Read their terms of service. They may suddenly have ten minutes of un-skippable political ads in front of every show you play instead of just an extra line in a menu, so don't be so quick to blast Tivo for making revenue. Now, if it goes too far save your yelling for then. Meanwhile, do check out others ad policies on their products, please.


Cableco DVRs are rented and people can dump them at any time without financial penalty. With Tivo, you have to consider that the service is degrading over time, and take that into account when purchasing.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Luke M said:


> If Tivo is so desperate for incremental revenue that they are willing to tarnish their reputation in this way, that doesn't give much confidence that they will still be in business in a year or two.
> 
> Maybe it's no coincidence that they opened up "lifetime" sales again. A "going out of business" sale perhaps?


Going out of business? So, you're the Chicken Little type, too, huh?

The sky is falling, the sky is falling, the end is here!


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

RoyK said:


> No I don't. I don't care what other DVRs are doing regarding ads. I don't have other DVRs. If we get un-skippable ads I won't have TiVo either. Not that I expect that we will - TiVo isn't THAT dumb.


Unskippable ads is not a TiVo proposal... there are those in the industry lobbying congress for such a law... it would affect all TV devices, including TV's, that would not allow anyone to even change the channel during a commercial break, until the break is over, as advertisers feel they are paying for that programming and therefore shouldn't have their advertising skipped. They don't feel their advertising dollars should just be charity.

No, of course not, TiVo is not that dumb, and are not going to do such a thing, unless forced by law... currently, we have the freedom to ignore all of these PMIs on TiVo if so desired... or to view them, which I do on occasion when one grabs my attention...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mchips said:


> Unskippable ads is not a TiVo proposal... there are those in the industry lobbying congress for such a law... it would affect all TV devices, including TV's, ...


except they can not control the off button, which is what would be utilized in droves  I think unskippable, unchangeabl ads are a dead end for the whole industry including the advertisers.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Has anyone posted a picture of the ads in Now Playing? I know they changed the Gold Star ads a bit, and they added ads to the deletion prompt, I've seen those. I've looked for but haven't noticed anything different about Now Playing.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

I know the ads have changed the way I talk about Tivo to co-worker/family. I no longer promote it and if asked it about I warn about the increase over the years in ad placements. I've been complaining about ads on my Tivo for years and I know I have personally cost them several subscriptions because of it. I don't like the ads and if they get any worst I'll be using Snapstream's Beyond TV on a PC.

Y-ASK


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I have yet to see the Now Playing ads (guess I'm not in the demographic), but I'm assuming I will at some point. My question is does TiVo get paid more if the ads show up in the Now Playing List?

Anyone who has a TiVo would have seen (links to) ads even if there were no Now Playing ads, since it's almost impossible to avoid them (on the Main menu and at the end of recordings). How is adding them to the bottom of groups any better than what's there currently?

Also why are the majority of the ads for TiVoCast programs, when TiVo has already stated that they aren't getting paid for those ads (they are just promoting TiVoCast)?


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

I completely agree with Y-ASK. I feel it's very important to tell folks how much I hate the ads, and how I would never ever get a Tivo again.

McHips: if you like the ads so much, just be sure you tell people all about them as much as you can. People deserve full disclosure, no? Why not post a story on Digg about how great the ads are? I think you know the answer. Your position is in the vast minority. People hate ads. 

Also, why do you use the "chicken little" thing again? This type of characterization is simply meant to discredit others without using any logical arguments. It's a subtle ad-hominem fallacy. But you knew that, right?


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

I disagree with you that your position is the majority. I think the majority of people don't care or notice the ads.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

visionary said:


> You all need to compare to what other DVR's are doing regarding ads before *condemning* anyone.


Good advice, but if I didn't know better, I'd say you were arguing _against_ Tivo, since AFAIK no other DVR I have ever used has inserted ads in their "Now Playing" equivalents.

No other DVR company's sole source of revenue stems from it's DVR hardware and software - i.e. other DVR manufacturers have money to spare and / or use their DVRs to upsell services.

Tivo has no such addition sources, therefore they must squeeze every cent they can out of their current offerings.

Oh, and FYP.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

morac said:


> My question is does TiVo get paid more if the ads show up in the Now Playing List?


I'm guessing the model works that they get paid X per click. There is probably a upfront fee for booking the add, and then additional monies for every time a TiVo user clicks on an ad to view additional information.

Just my guess.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

morac said:


> I have yet to see the Now Playing ads (guess I'm not in the demographic), but I'm assuming I will at some point.


They are in folders, so I would think you have to have folders turned on and be connecting via the Internet.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> except they can not control the off button, which is what would be utilized in droves  I think unskippable, unchangeabl ads are a dead end for the whole industry including the advertisers.


If that happens eBay would be flooded with old VCRs and people would be paying $400 what now costs $20.

I'd be selling some old VCRs too.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Atomike said:


> Also, why do you use the "chicken little" thing again? This type of characterization is simply meant to discredit others without using any logical arguments.


Then you don't understand, which doesn't surprise me since you're always taking such extreme, negative, illogical positions yourself.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Atomike said:


> People hate ads.


well sure. Yet people still watch TV and read magazines and newspapers and go to ballparks and so on. The reason people used all these other companies to compare with TiVo is that people as a rule do not guide their decisions simply on ad avoidance. It is how obtrusive the ads are and the advertisers walk that line between too obtrusive and noticeable since ads began.

if a magazine had just one article and the rest was ads then that one article had better be really good or the ads targeted as in Bridal magazines. If the ballpark made people wear glasses so the ads could be presented then many would balk at such a thing, unless of course it meant not having to pay 30 bucks to get in.

for the majority of people ads are a tradeoff type of thing. I know MythTV has no ads but I find using a TiVo DVR so much easier that some ads are a no brainer. For others is it worth the monthly sub and ads are part of that equation with different weight to it for different people.

just like "sky is falling" does not equate directly to your desire to post about ads, neither does "I hate ads, so ads anywhere must upset everybody" relate directly to the issue of ads on the TiVo DVR


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

classicX said:


> If that happens eBay would be flooded with old VCRs and people would be paying $400 what now costs $20.
> 
> I'd be selling some old VCRs too.


ah, now we have the heart of the conspiracy, VCR repair shops are behind it all


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Here's an example.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Atomike said:


> People hate ads.


More correctly: Some people hate some ads.

I personally don't hate the idea of ads - I just don't like it when the ad overpowers the content.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Here's an example.


Does it go away if you watch it?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

classicX said:


> Your TiVo gets you?


Now your TiVo gets to you.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

The line item ads still don't bug me.

The people steering their friends from TiVo based on the current ads are hurting the bottom line, that's what will make it worse down the road. You're only hurting yourselves and other current customers. So every time you see another ad. You can think "I did that!" and be oh so proud.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Langree said:


> The people steering their friends from TiVo based on the current ads are hurting the bottom line, that's what will make it worse down the road. You're only hurting yourselves and other current customers. So every time you see another ad. You can think "I did that!" and be oh so proud.


Oh please. By that logic we should be lying about the product to pump it up. Great for my personal integrity. I give my honest opinion on products.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

ah30k said:


> Oh please. By that logic we should be lying about the product to pump it up. Great for my personal integrity. I give my honest opinion on products.


What lie? It's still a damn fine product who's total functionality is unmatched by Dish or SA or Moto. Who btw, all have ads that are in the guide and do get in the way.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> Here's an example.


Interesting. I SP Terminator and have groups turned on, but did not see any ads in the group, at least not as of two days ago (I can check again tonight). I did see the ad in the main menu as shown in your second image. Then again my S3 didn't have the big ads in the main menu until very recently when others got it months ago so who knows.

BTW I wonder if TiVo changed it so the skip to end button jumped to the last *show* in a group instead of the ad if people would be more accepting of them in the NP list.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Langree said:


> What lie? It's still a damn fine product who's total functionality is unmatched by Dish or SA or Moto. Who btw, all have ads that are in the guide and do get in the way.


You're logic is

complaints->lost_revenue->more_ads->worse_for_me

therefore it should be

less_complaints_more_support->more_revenue->less_ads->better_for_me.

It is the less complaints and more support that is the lie.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Yeah maybe you and I are in the same boat Morac. I just recently got the updated gold star ads and, even though I have checked several times I haven't seen any ads in Now Playing folders.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

They are related, don't you see that? Less subscriber revenue means TiVo has to get alternate revenue streams or fail. No choice.

Why is it hard to see that steering people away solely based on ads is cutting off your nose despite your face?

You think TiVo inc. is going to stop the ads? Ain't gonna happen, no matter how much you complain or call. What will happen is at some point the losses will be to great to overcome and they will sell off their tech and the patents and go bye bye and we'll all have these shiny doorstops.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Langree said:


> Why is it hard to see that steering people away solely based on ads is cutting off your nose despite your face?


I am giving people my opinion. Why is it hard to see that giving people my truthful opinion when asked is preferable to me than giving untrue opinions just to protect TiVo? If you think this is cutting off my nose to spite my face then we just have different moral values.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Langree said:


> What lie? It's still a damn fine product who's total functionality is unmatched by Dish or SA or Moto. Who btw, all have ads that are in the guide and do get in the way.


FWIW - I haven't seen a single ad in my Dish guide.

And it's no secret I prefer the Dish interface to Tivo, but even if I didn't, I'd argue against your assertion that the functionality of Tivo is unmatched.

Literally, it's true - because the Dish DVR doesn't have some of the functions of Tivo boxes (so you can't say they are matched), but both have functions that the other lacks.

Have you had experience with any boxes outside of Tivo?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

classicX said:


> Have you had experience with any boxes outside of Tivo?


Yup, Dish boxes, SA boxes (still have one in my bedroom, but I don't use it to record), Moto Boxes when I lived in CA and still use when I go visit.

I"ve even used a Sky box in England last year.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

ah30k said:


> You're logic is
> 
> complaints->lost_revenue->more_ads->worse_for_me
> 
> ...


It's the less ads that is the lie - have you ever seen anyone ever remove ad revenue once they begin receiving it?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Langree said:


> Yup, Dish boxes, SA boxes (still have one in my bedroom, but I don't use it to record), Moto Boxes when I lived in CA and still use when I go visit.
> 
> I"ve even used a Sky box in England last year.


With regards to dish, and SA, I've never seen ads in the guide on either box.

I just looked through my guide on my Dish ViP622 and I didn't see anything that looked like an ad.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Langree said:


> They are related, don't you see that? Less subscriber revenue means TiVo has to get alternate revenue streams or fail. No choice.
> 
> Why is it hard to see that steering people away solely based on ads is cutting off your nose *to spite* your face?
> 
> You think TiVo inc. is going to stop the ads? Ain't gonna happen, no matter how much you complain or call. What will happen is at some point the losses will be to great to overcome and they will sell off their tech and the patents and go bye bye and we'll all have these shiny doorstops.


Actively steering people away is different from simply not endorsing the product, though I do see your point of view.

Honestly, if I'd never had any experience with TiVo, and I used one at a friends house, I'd ask "Why do you have to pay monthly when there are all these ads around?"

What would your response be?

oh, and FYP


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Ads are part of society. A prime example would be the movies. Before I would pay $3-$4 to see a movie and sure there would be movie trailers before, which technically are ads, but I loved the previews, it let me know what is coming out soon.

Now I go to the movies and pay $8 (that is mat or student discount price) and not only do I have movie trailers before but I have car commercials, cell phone, etc. Not only that but prior to showtime there is the slideshow that is showing ads and coca-cola does the pre-show trivia games. So lets see... I pay more for movies and then they sell commercial space before the movie?

Hmm... what else do we have that equates to this. TV shows now will smush ending credits of one show with the start of another (or run the credits by at about 2x speed) so they can sell extra commercial space. Comedy Central does this a lot and I have to pay extra to get those channels. Now granted I have a TiVo so extra ads in the show don't irritate me, but without it I am still paying money for cable, why can't I get no ads?

Finally last point for me is TiVo has done this in a non-abtrusive way. Just like there are ads on this site I know where they are located ^, -> and \/ and I just typically ignore them. Same with the star on the main menu, the ad at the bottom of my group folders and the one on the delete screen. Sometimes I will check them out if they interest me, but sometimes I even forget they are there. The best part is with the ones in the Group Folders and at the end of shows they can be customized more towards the audience the ad is targeting, which I think is really cool. I like ads that pertain to me an interest me (hence why I always stop for the Mac and Budweiser ads)


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

classicX said:


> And it's no secret I prefer the Dish interface to Tivo, but even if I didn't, I'd argue against your assertion that the functionality of Tivo is unmatched.
> 
> Literally, it's true - because the Dish DVR doesn't have some of the functions of Tivo boxes (so you can't say they are matched), but both have functions that the other lacks.
> 
> Have you had experience with any boxes outside of Tivo?


I have used every DVR now on the market, aside from Moxi. It all depends on what "features" you value the most, I suppose.

The Dish 16:9 program guide interface is superior. If you use the guide often, that would be a significant advantage. A picture window in the menus is also nice to have, in some cases. Menu navigation is faster. There are no advertisements. Dish Network also has some other useful non-DVR features, such as on-screen caller id.

But can you think of one DVR "task" that Dish does better, aside from the ability to use multiple external hard drives? The list of things the Dish DVR can't do is pretty substantial. The Dish DVR comes up short in a lot of areas:

(1) DVR functions such as pause, replay, and fast forward are significantly less responsive; (2) won't autorecord based on boolean search (AND/OR/NOT) with recordings stored into customizable folders; (3) doesn't keep a record of everything recorded in the past 28 days to prevent recording the same program or episode twice in a given month; (4) less program information; (5) no one-button delete; (6) no buffering of live TV while watching a recording; (7) resume option does not work on recordings in progress; (8) default behavior is not to resume a partially watched recording, more menu navigation is required to resume; (9) limited sorting options on recorded list, i.e. no sort by name; (10) doesn't have a deleted items folder with the ability to undelete recordings, and (11) doesn't do online scheduling.

Some benefits of the Dish DVR can also be a liability in some cases. For example, the live video window is always shown on recorded list, which is wonderful if you want to know the current score of the big game before you start watching it.

The Comcast TiVo UI does show that TiVo has learned from Dish and other DVRs, at least when it comes to the guide, picture window in menus, etc.



Einselen said:


> Finally last point for me is TiVo has done this in a non-abtrusive way. Just like there are ads on this site I know where they are located ^, -> and \/ and I just typically ignore them. Same with the star on the main menu, the ad at the bottom of my group folders and the one on the delete screen. Sometimes I will check them out if they interest me, but sometimes I even forget they are there. The best part is with the ones in the Group Folders and at the end of shows they can be customized more towards the audience the ad is targeting, which I think is really cool. I like ads that pertain to me an interest me (hence why I always stop for the Mac and Budweiser ads)


I don't agree that the NPL ads are non-obtrusive. I have a lot of recordings on my DVR. I frequently page down to the last recording in a folder. Now that takes me to an advertisement.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

To be clear on my position... TiVo has every right to include advertisements in their product. I am not disputing that nor that ads are part of our society. 

My personal views (which may not be yours) is that they are getting worse and that combined with the rather hefty monthly fees make it difficult for me to recommend to others. These are personal opinions which no one can tell me are wrong for me.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Also I hate how I pay monthly for magazines such as EGM, US, People, Time and there are ads there.

I also pay for newspapers (well I don't but people do) and they sell ad space.

Again we are living in an ad driven society. Just wait, soon TCF will sell ads in your signature space. Each post you make you may be promoting hemorrhoid creme!


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

ah30k said:


> To be clear on my position... TiVo has every right to include advertisements in their product. I am not disputing that nor that ads are part of our society.
> 
> My personal views (which may not be yours) is that they are getting worse and that combined with the rather hefty monthly fees make it difficult for me to recommend to others. These are personal opinions which no one can tell me are wrong for me.


I am assuming this is directed at me since I am on the tangent that ads are part of our society.

I agree, they are getting worse and the price is going up, but again look at the movie theaters. The ads there are getting worse and movie prices are going up. Advertising has been and always will be a form of subsidy. Heck UF who has ran the largest student run pep rally, Gator Growl, for the past 80 some years has been sponsored by Verizon for the next two years to help cover cost. The back of ticketmaster tickets usually have some sort of ad on them. Ads will always be used to help subsidize the cost.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

So now TiVo is on par with the rest of the world with ads. OK, I concede that. 

It USED to be better than everyone else and now it is not. Do you concede this to me?


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

morac said:


> ...snip...
> BTW I wonder if TiVo changed it so the skip to end button jumped to the last *show* in a group instead of the ad if people would be more accepting of them in the NP list.


It would certainly make me happier. I don't care for the ads on the keep/delete show dialog either, but thankfully TiVo chose to leave the focus on the expected item, which doesn't impede the way I'm used to using the service.
Not so with the ads in the folders.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

ah30k said:


> So now TiVo is on par with the rest of the world with ads. OK, I concede that.
> 
> It USED to be better than everyone else and now it is not. Do you concede this to me?


Yes and no  TiVo may have been better in say 2005 then other medians, but what about over the course of the product lifetime? What if say it took movies 40 years before even a trailer was put in front of another movie but here Tivo has done it in less then 10 years, I would then say the movies were better then TiVo.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Einselen said:


> Yes and no  TiVo may have been better in say 2005 then other medians, but what about over the course of the product lifetime? What if say it took movies 40 years before even a trailer was put in front of another movie but here Tivo has done it in less then 10 years, I would then say the movies were better then TiVo.


I have no idea what you are talking about, sorry.


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

Some of us who are paying for a service to get away from ads and signed up to a service with minimum contract time periods and early penalties who started seeing targeted ads within the menus after the signed up for the service have a right to be PISSED with Tivo.

Maybe I missed the fine print, but nowhere do I recall it clearly stating that you should expect to see advertising in the Tivo DVR's. Not in the manual, not in the instore demos. Rather I think one of the selling points is the ability to skip ads?

I think the current ads are tolerable, but it is a slippery slope Tivo is travelling down.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

visionary said:


> You all need to compare to what other DVR's are doing regarding ads before condeming anyone. Read their terms of service. They may suddenly have ten minutes of un-skippable political ads in front of every show you play instead of just an extra line in a menu, so don't be so quick to blast Tivo for making revenue. Now, if it goes too far save your yelling for then. Meanwhile, do check out others ad policies on their products, please.


No We don't need to compare what other DVRs are doing. I pay TiVo, not any other company. Additionally, TiVo should be setting the standards, not using sub-par practices that are employed by other companies.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

qz3fwd said:


> Rather I think one of the selling points is the ability to skip ads?


And again, nobody is forcing you to click on the line item and watch the ad.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Are we still talking about this non issue?


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

DCIFRTHS said:


> No We don't need to compare what other DVRs are doing. I pay TiVo, not any other company. Additionally, TiVo should be setting the standards, not using sub-par practices that are employed by other companies.


What standards does TiVo need to set?

TiVo attempts to provide state-of-the-art features and better-than-average service at prices people are willing to pay while also attempting to make a profit. Not such an easy trick, actually, when selling a product which offers content that it doesn't actually produce!

TiVo produces the last surviving standalone DVR. The company is still a work in progress and needs revenue to succeed. If TiVo fails to generate enough income, it most likely will be sold to a big media corporation. Not the end of the world perhaps, but the end of an era.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

SeanC said:


> I disagree with you that your position is the majority. I think the majority of people don't care or notice the ads.


I disagree with you. If given the choice, during guided setup, to opt in or out of ads, my guess is that most people would choose "no ads".


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

fallingwater said:


> What standards does TiVo need to set?


Ease of of use. Reliability. A clean and uncluttered interface.



> TiVo attempts to provide state-of-the-art features and better-than-average service at prices people are willing to pay while also attempting to make a profit. Not such an easy trick, actually, when selling a product which offers content that it doesn't actually produce!


I agree.



> TiVo produces the last surviving standalone DVR. The company is still a work in progress and needs revenue to succeed. If TiVo fails to generate enough income, it most likely will be sold to a big media corporation. Not the end of the world perhaps, but the end of an era.


I see two options regarding the ads. Offer an ad subsidized service, and a higher priced option that does not include ads.


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## Blahman (Mar 4, 2002)

I have convinced a large number of people over the years to buy TiVo and its services.

I have been a very big supporter of TiVo through my positive endorsements of their products and services.

Within the past few months the TiVo I have loved for many years has become the disgusting mess that is the very thing that pushed me away from regular TV.

First the massive shaded ugly button crap advertisements on the main menu. Note: I never complained and did not mind the single one line star advertisement on the main menu.

Then the popup advertisements during the fast forwarding (which seem to be getting bigger and more intrusive [ding]).

I was absolutely disgusted by the unnecessarily large advertisements at the end of every show that so distort the interface that it again looks like crap.

Seeing advertisements suddenly appear in my Now Playing list (that like all the others started and looked just like this one) was the final straw. As some others have pointed out this actually breaks habits and common methods for using the product. Furthermore, I don't want crap in MY Now Playing list that I did not pick to record for me. It is after all, MY Now Playing list.

Anyone who has been playing along on seeing the TiVo advertisement creep (which has turned into a full on race) will note that every advertisement on every place on the TiVo started as a small innocuous little thing and increased to some giant ugly eyesore. Only stupid people would fail to learn from history and expect this little advertisement to stay small or go away; It will without doubt grow and become as ugly as the others, only now it also interferes with learned usage behaviors {even preying on them to get unintended clicks}. The act of preying on a regular pattern of activity to trick/deceive one to commit an action they would not ordinarily do is commonly confined to people with underhanded intentions {I find false click-throughs through behavior exploitation just as bad}.

Many people say I should continue to toll the bells of the positive things TiVo offers. I say that I shall not simply because the positives are clouded and covered by ever increasing negatives. I have personally owned or given as gifts dozens of TiVo units with service, and convinced many more to buy TiVo. I rarely post as I have generally been happy over the years with TiVo and the units I have purchased and the service received. I have through the years enjoyed my TiVo units. I no longer enjoy them, I am no longer proud to show them off. I can not in good conscience recommend TiVo in a positive light based on the trends of the past year. This year the advertising has increased so dramatically as to be annoying and make the interface of my TiVo units ugly. Given the cost overhead, and the monthly fees I could not in good conscience recommend purchasing a TiVo unit and service over a Provider's DVR unit any longer. So yes, my endorsement of TiVo will be of a very negative variety now. They used to be good, but lately they are not worth the money. I still have many things I like and many things I dislike. Positives generally outweighed the negatives, but TiVo has gone to far down the negatives path on multiple fronts for me; the advertisements were just the most major reason that I have become turned off by my TiVo which "No Longer Gets Me".


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

complete over reaction. They sky is falling with you. I hope you find happiness somewhere else, how about your toaster?


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

BlackBetty said:


> complete over reaction. They sky is falling with you. I hope you find happiness somewhere else, how about your toaster?


I didn't realize you had been made arbiter of what constitutes an over-reaction? 

You can all continue to love and recommend Tivo, in hopes that its failing model can be salvaged. I, too, don't want to see Tivo go under. It's a great product. I have tolerated increasing amounts of ads, but everyone has a breaking point. For me, the line was crossed putting ads into the folders. If there were a viable alternative, this would be where Tivo and I would part company. $12.95/mo should buy more loyalty that what Tivo is getting from these various advertisers. Ah, but on the boxes for which I've paid for lifetime, what recourse do I have?

I'm at the point where I think Tivo should split its service. One group could opt for guide data ONLY--no more software updates, EVER. Like the Series 1 folks. This group should pay something smaller, like $5/mo. After all, we wouldn't be asking for more money to be spent on us to "improve" the interface. Why should we continue to finance things we don't want? The other group could then opt for guide data PLUS "improvments". These folks can then pay $12.95/mo or $15.95/mo or $29.95/mo. After all, Tivo is still the best thing out there. Your extra money could get you snazzy new features in addition to guide data. Plus, all the ads you can eat.

I still don't know why it is hard for you to accept that some folks feel BETRAYED by the "TV your way" company. Just wait to see how folks respond to the "dancing" icons or pop-up banners. Tivo is pushing the limits with their ads, in my opinion, to see the point at which people scream. If you stay quiet, you're approving their actions.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Well I saw my first Now Playing List ad and while I still love my S3 (and yes even my S2 despite it's sluggishness) and I don't mind the other ads, I agree having ads in the NPL is just "wrong". I was even tempted to highlight it and press clear which obviously did nothing. 

I still believe that is a bad place to put ads and it does set a bad precedent. People might be okay with the ad there, but how far would those people be willing to let TiVo go? What if they started interspacing ads in between programs in the NPL? Maybe moves the Yellow stars to the top of the main menu? The more effort it takes customers to avoid the ads the more they will annoy people.

What's even more annoying is that the ads are not even targeted. TiVo knows what programs. They know what your SP and WL are. They could tailor ads similar to how they record suggestions, but I'd say the majority of the ads that show up on my TiVo I just don't care about. Tailor the ads to my tastes, instead of trying to get me to watch ads I don't care about by sticking them in more and more locations, and maybe I'll watch them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> If there were a viable alternative, this would be where Tivo and I would part company. $12.95/mo should buy more loyalty that what Tivo is getting from these various advertisers.


kind of sums up the whole thread


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

BlackBetty said:


> complete over reaction. They sky is falling with you. I hope you find happiness somewhere else, how about your toaster?


Gee, my toaster hasn't started pimping advertisements burned into my bagels, yet. And when I bought my toaster I expected it would stay that way. Imagine my dismay to suddenly see my Tivo pimping this crap at me, everywhere I look into the menus.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I see two options regarding the ads. Offer an ad subsidized service, and a higher priced option that does not include ads.


1. Adhere to present policies. 
2. Track sales and revenue. 
3. As trends become apparent, adjust policies accordingly.


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## Blahman (Mar 4, 2002)

I just wanted to add this Off-Topic Reply to a commenter on this thread.



BlackBetty said:


> complete over reaction. They sky is falling with you. I hope you find happiness somewhere else, how about your toaster?


Is there a reason you can not hold a reasonable discourse without resorting to name calling and trying to distract attention from the actual topic? I could make quite a few true and a few insulting remarks about that kind of behavior but I shall not.


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## DrWho453 (Jul 16, 2005)

Blahman said:


> So, I went to my Now Playing list to watch a show, and f... you TiVo. Advertisments on my Now Playing list. This crap is out of hand.
> 
> Shrink the Size of the Advertisements on the Main Menu, and get them off the End of Show Pop-up and Now Playing Lists. Either that or make this crap free.
> 
> I have been a very big promoter of TiVo to my co-workers and friends. I will not ever promote TiVo, except in a negative manner until this crap ends.


Ok, I must be missing something here. I do not see any adds in the NPL. I do see the ad in the Tivo Central which they have been doing stuff like this since the series 2 came out just now the ads seem to be bigger. They also used to be topics that would seem interesting now they are mostly CC adds and other types of ads. I have also noticed the ads have recently been added to the end of a recorded program which I don't like very much but I can live with it. I would agree that if they did start putting the adds in the NPL then that would be overdoing the ads.

If they are doing this I wonder if they are only doing it on some units maybe by zip code or something. I just hope I don't start seeing it on my Tivo.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> I have used every DVR now on the market, aside from Moxi. It all depends on what "features" you value the most, I suppose.
> 
> The Dish 16:9 program guide interface is superior. If you use the guide often, that would be a significant advantage. A picture window in the menus is also nice to have, in some cases. Menu navigation is faster. There are no advertisements. Dish Network also has some other useful non-DVR features, such as on-screen caller id.
> 
> ...


How sloppy is E*'s trick play compared with TiVo's? Comcast's Moto, w/o TiVo, is arguably the worst possible.

Don't both Comcast's TiVo and E*'s DVR offer the option to pause before going into their menus?

For the one time charge of $40, E*'s DVR's capability to utilize multiple generic external USB HDD's for categorized storage offers a huge advantage when compared with merely increasing the size of an internal HDD using a certified dongled HDD. If TiVo offered a similiar feature I could eliminate probably 90% of the DVD's I record and store that 90% in a fraction of the space.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> But can you think of one DVR "task" that Dish does better, aside from the ability to use multiple external hard drives? The list of things the Dish DVR can't do is pretty substantial. The Dish DVR comes up short in a lot of areas:
> 
> (1) DVR functions such as pause, replay, and fast forward are significantly less responsive; (2) won't autorecord based on boolean search (AND/OR/NOT) with recordings stored into customizable folders; (3) doesn't keep a record of everything recorded in the past 28 days to prevent recording the same program or episode twice in a given month; (4) less program information; (5) no one-button delete; (6) no buffering of live TV while watching a recording; (7) resume option does not work on recordings in progress; (8) default behavior is not to resume a partially watched recording, more menu navigation is required to resume; (9) limited sorting options on recorded list, i.e. no sort by name; (10) doesn't have a deleted items folder with the ability to undelete recordings, and (11) doesn't do online scheduling.


Several items in this list are no longer shortcomings, namely numbers 1, 3, 8, and 9.

Number 6 is covered by a TiVo patent, I believe.

And, there are several things the Dish DVR can do that Tivo can't.

1) Record three HD channels at once (one OTA, two Sat)
2) Delete multiple recordings at once
3) up to 300x fast forwarding / rewinding
4) No hack for 30-second skip
5) near instant "season pass" priority changes (no 'please wait' screen for five minutes)
6) Superior guide navigation (e.g. pressing a number followed by the right or left keys jumps that number hours forward or backward in the guide)
7) Free space indicator right in the recordings list [in both HD and SD, if applicable]
8) External HD "archive" - you can copy an entire season of a show to an external hard drive, then disconnect it and use it for retrieval at a later time. Using a new drive in the interim doesn't affect the ability to use the first drive.

It's not eleven items but then again, neither is your list when you remove the 4 items that aren't true. 

And the speedy interface also helps - TiVo's interface has gotten slower with every update.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

DrWho453 said:


> Ok, I must be missing something here. I do not see any adds in the NPL. I do see the ad in the Tivo Central which they have been doing stuff like this since the series 2 came out just now the ads seem to be bigger. They also used to be topics that would seem interesting now they are mostly CC adds and other types of ads. I have also noticed the ads have recently been added to the end of a recorded program which I don't like very much but I can live with it. I would agree that if they did start putting the adds in the NPL then that would be overdoing the ads.
> 
> If they are doing this I wonder if they are only doing it on some units maybe by zip code or something. I just hope I don't start seeing it on my Tivo.


The ads are in the group folders. My guess is because on most tivos (talking the stock issued ones) there are probably only about 1 screen of shows listed so the ad will probably be seen vs. just at the bottom of the NPL.

Now if the ad line is randomly placed in the middle of the NPL or always at the bottom of the screen of the NPL I might be a little annoyed.


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## DrWho453 (Jul 16, 2005)

Einselen said:


> The ads are in the group folders. My guess is because on most tivos (talking the stock issued ones) there are probably only about 1 screen of shows listed so the ad will probably be seen vs. just at the bottom of the NPL.
> 
> Now if the ad line is randomly placed in the middle of the NPL or always at the bottom of the screen of the NPL I might be a little annoyed.


Hmm, Ok well I still don't see any ads in the NPL either at the bottom of the screen or in the group folders. Guess I must be lucky then


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

DrWho453 said:


> Hmm, Ok well I still don't see any ads in the NPL either at the bottom of the screen or in the group folders. Guess I must be lucky then


Could be a number of factors. 1) you are not in the target demogrpahics (either by show, zip, combo, etc.) 2) maybe you have yet to record the teleworld program with the ad which you might fall in the demographic with.

Wait, that just made me think of something. If people are so upset about the ads, why not just setup an ARWL for teleworld set it to keep only 1 and place it at the bottom of your season pass manager. That way the TiVo will never be able to record the teleworld program at get the star content for the ads and they will be gone. Sure it sucks since it takes up space for the show, but no more ads and really no extra work for you besides the initial setup.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

You can get ads without the Teleworld video. The link just resolves to an info screen without any video option.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Einselen said:


> Wait, that just made me think of something. If people are so upset about the ads, why not just setup an ARWL for teleworld set it to keep only 1 and place it at the bottom of your season pass manager. That way the TiVo will never be able to record the teleworld program at get the star content for the ads and they will be gone.


Blocking the Teleworld recordings won't block the gold star ads, it will just block any video associated with said star. In fact I remember reading someone who posted here saying when he "clicked" on a gold star it took him to a blank menu since his TiVo didn't record the ad. Most ads though have "text" stuff as well so they show up.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Yeah forgot about the text that sometimes goes with the video.

Still though I think it could limit it, but with that blank page link that seems like that idea is out the window. Still what we need to do is a research study on the topic. We need to find people (preferably same zip and season passes or as close as possible) and have one do the ARWL and see what the difference is). Of course we will do this with multiple pairs. Anyone game?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> How sloppy is E*'s trick play compared with TiVo's? Comcast's Moto, w/o TiVo, is arguably the worst possible.


E* trick play used to be just as responsive and just as smooth as TiVo. But they aren't anymore. Now their FF and REW aren't smooth at all, and the functions themselves aren't as responsive. I'm not sure what happened.

The Dish DVR functions are still better than any Motorola DVR. [I have not used the current version of the Comcast TiVo software.]



classicX said:


> Several items in this list are no longer shortcomings, namely numbers 1, 3, 8, and 9.


I observed most of those during the Christmas break on a 622 (with external add-on support). For sort by name, I believe I was looking at archived storage, although I do remember looking for that option on the recorded list a few months ago and being unable to find it.



classicX said:


> And, there are several things the Dish DVR can do that Tivo can't.
> 
> *1) Record three HD channels at once (one OTA, two Sat)*
> 2) Delete multiple recordings at once
> ...


I'll give you credit for #1, #3, #6, #7, and #8, although #3 can be viewed as Dish's version of skip-to-tick.

The Dish DVR has a superior program guide -- no question about that. If you channel surf or rely on the guide to find a lot of your programming, that would be a significant advantage. I don't.

I'm not sure what the benefit is to #2, when TiVo has one-touch delete. For #4, the TiVo now remembers the 30s skip setting across reboots and software updates. With ~65 season passes, my typical season pass priority adjustment probably takes 60-120 seconds, but this isn't something that needs to be done on a regular basis (only when new series are added).


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

I NEVER allow Teleworld to record but still get the ads.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

For those who skipped page #2:


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I'd still like to know what getting NAILED has to do with watching Terminator.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

morac said:


> I'd still like to know what getting NAILED has to do with watching Terminator.


You have seen Summer. Who wouldn't want to get nailed by her?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

morac said:


> I'd still like to know what getting NAILED has to do with watching Terminator.


have you seen what a terminator can do to a House


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Ease of of use. Reliability. A clean and uncluttered interface.


FYP


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

Like I said, the TiVo MBA's are messing up TiVo.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

Something struck me as odd earlier in this thread. A few people have said that they would not recommend TiVo to friends/relatives/others now that TiVo has added some amount of advertising into their menu system.

Do these people who will not get your recommendation have a DVR of some sort today? If not, I assume they are stuck watching regular advertisements with no chance of ever skipping over them, setting up lovely season passes, etc. 

Continuing my assumption that these people don't have a DVR today, you are willing to force them to continue watching advertisements all day long because you have issues with line-item ads? Your personal issues with the box will supercede your relatives/friends/others from a better tv-viewing experience?

Even if these people who you will not recommend TiVo to DO have a DVR today, my guess is it is a CABLE DVR, and those things typically SUCK serious ASS. Comcast has blasted ads all over its guide, and the idea of forcing people to continue to use generic, crappy DVRs because you have issues with line-item ads is just plain selfish.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

PS: For those with SERIOUS concerns over TiVo's advertising practices, such that they are, you know what your options are. You can call to complain, and keep the service, call to complain and cancel your service, or not call to complain, not cancel, and live with it. 

If it got to the point where TiVo felt it was not worth it do set up their advertising structure this way, they would stop it. They have in the past with previous advertising tests. 

However, I will add that TiVo IS currently the only real commercial DVR on the market not provided by the cable/sat companies. A TiVo box and subscription will get you access to their top quality search and record services, but also other features that some find extremely valuable and others don't. 
All of these things have a cost to TiVo, and as you should know, TiVo currently operates in the red. The could operate in the black if they did things like stop marketing and/or stop research. Either of those two things would be enough to put TiVo in the black and they could technically stop pushing advertising in their menu system and remain profitable. 
That being said, they are trying run a publicly held "for profit" company, that also wants to grow its user base. Something tells me that they would not get many people to sign up for an "ad free" menu system if it were to cost said user 3 bucks more a month. So for them to be able to grow their company, and not lose all their (shareholders) cash, they need to find alternative routes to generate cash outside of subscription fees. 

This isn't anything you as working Americans should not know. Of course it is still up to you to keep your TiVo and/or recommend it to others you feel could be better off with it. Whatever helps you sleep at night.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> ...Even if these people who you will not recommend TiVo to DO have a DVR today, my guess is it is a CABLE DVR, and those things typically SUCK serious ASS. Comcast has blasted ads all over its guide,


 and TiVo is catching up at a record pace.


kmill14 said:


> ... the idea of forcing people to continue to use generic, crappy DVRs because you have issues with line-item ads is just plain selfish.


Who is forcing anyone to do anything? It is this blatant exaggeration that makes it difficult to have reasonable debate.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

ah30k said:


> and TiVo is catching up at a record pace.


Really?

Does it look anything like this?










With the guide getting all sorts of squeezed? Is Tivo's line-item ads at the bottom of a menu really comparable?



ah30k said:


> Who is forcing anyone to do anything? It is this blatant exaggeration that makes it difficult to have reasonable debate.


Actually, since you can't read the sarcasm in my written comments, I was driving home the point that for those people who will not recommend TiVo to "others", those "others" are either stuck with no DVR and TONS of ads, or a crappy DVR like Comcast's, with lovely BANNER ads.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

Hmm, maybe TiVo should go the route of XBox:










So for the people who love to rip on TiVo, at least acknowledge that their line-item ads are nowhere NEAR as invasive as the above examples from other, bigger companies.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

Good Lord people, is your best response justifying this is "we're lucky we're not getting as screwed as users of (service x,y or z)?" 

Did you never hear you parents say "just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean you should?" 

Just what kind of sheeple are you that you're so willing to go along with such abuse?


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

kmill, you have excellent points, but unfortunately they're going to fall on deaf ears... there are people that don't want to accept ads of any sort, including the commercials that pay for and run during actual programs, and therefore will complain about them, and find anything to use to complain about them no matter what... they don't understand the bigger picture, as they're so narrowly focused on an ad being there at all.

But, to those who don't understand the comparison, it's brought up because people are saying they're going to turn people away from TiVo because of the ads... the problem with that, there is no ad-free alternative, so what is their argument going to be... they can't say use such and such other DVR to get away from ads, because there's no such thing... so, it'd be like saying get out of the lake because it's wet and jump into a pool instead.

<edit>
Also, the comparison is there to give perspective... it could be much worse, but it isn't...


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

kmill14 said:


> Hmm, maybe TiVo should go the route of XBox:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I so acknowledge. That said, at what point for you does Tivo become so much like the others that you say, "enough"? When will you stop recommending them? I understand they are struggling, and I've been very patient. I've looked at many of their ads to give them higher click counts. I was OK when the banner ads got bigger on the main menu. I was fine with the static FF ads. The little "ding" sound was a novelty to me. But once they began putting ads INTO THE FOLDERS, I thought they crossed a line. And if they don't begin to get some pushback from customers, they're going to continue giving us more and more intrusive ads. And all the way, we'll take it because "Tivo is better than those other guys"... until they ARE those other guys.

And speaking of those other guys, don't you think they'd "sell" the FF button to certain advertisers once they cornered the DVR market? "Hey, GM, for $x per ad, we'll disable the FF button during your commercial. What do you say?" The customers by then will have no choice because giving up all DVRs means watching all the commercials.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

mchips said:


> ...
> <edit>
> Also, the comparison is there to give perspective... it could be much worse, but it isn't...


Yet.

But it's much worse than it was a month ago. And a month or so it was much worse than six months ago (TiVo Central Star ad became blatant)


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

So now there are 3 (or more?) topics on TiVo Forums which have a number of posters *****ing about TiVo's practices.

1. FSI
2. QAM mapping
3. Menu ads

So far TiVo hasn't replied to the first two. Time will eventually tell about all three.

It doesn't take a large number of disgruntled posters to make it appear there's a groundswell. In truth, most TiVo users probably don't focus on any of these issues, as significant as they may be.

TiVo appears to run its business with the same determination that's been shown in bringing TiVo Service to its current capabilities. TiVo isn't for everyone and doesn't follow everyone's opinions about how it should conduct its business. 

I disagree with many TiVo practices and cut the company no special slack. But over time I've learned to enjoy the good stuff and ignore the other stuff. TiVo does whatever works best for TiVo. 

TiVo Forum threads about ads probably have a long future.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> Actually, since you can't read the sarcasm in my written comments...


Where is the sarcasm in this quote you wrote?


kmill14 said:


> Comcast has blasted ads all over its guide, and the idea of forcing people to continue to use generic, crappy DVRs because you have issues with line-item ads is just plain selfish.​


Maybe I'm dense but I just don't see any sarcasm.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

mchips said:


> kmill, you have excellent points, but unfortunately they're going to fall on deaf ears... there are people that don't want to accept ads of any sort, including the commercials that pay for and run during actual programs, and therefore will complain about them, and find anything to use to complain about them no matter what... they don't understand the bigger picture, as they're so narrowly focused on an ad being there at all.


No, you don't understand the point and are putting words in peoples mouths. Nearly everyone who complained was willing to accept some ads, but feel they have crossed a personal line for them. Therefore your claim that they won't accept ads of any sort doesn't hold water.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> Really?
> 
> Does it look anything like this?


Actually they are getting pretty close. You are skewing the graphics a bit since it seems like you need to opt-in and click "More Info" to get the second screen.










Comcast has branding, TiVo has branding
Comcast has an ad with a graphic for that ad, TiVo has an ad with graphic for that ad.
Cocast ad highlighted from other content, TiVo ad highlighted from other content.


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

ah30k said:


> Comcast has branding, TiVo has branding
> Comcast has an ad with a graphic for that ad, TiVo has an ad with graphic for that ad.
> Cocast ad highlighted from other content, TiVo ad highlighted from other content.


Comcast decreases the available/viewable content of user interest to supply ad space.
TiVo does not (as of this time).
That's the big difference to me.
(though borking my skip-to-last in folders does annoy me a trifle. I wish they'd fix the shortcut to avoid the ad and just select the last show in the list)


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

ah30k said:


> No, you don't understand the point and are putting words in peoples mouths. Nearly everyone who complained was willing to accept some ads, but feel they have crossed a personal line for them. Therefore your claim that they won't accept ads of any sort doesn't hold water.


It holds so much water the boat is sinking... 

People have always been complaining about the ads, and every time, they say the same thing, TiVo just crossed the line... well, according to many, that line was crossed several years ago, so it's just the same old same old arguments... 

<edit>
But to the few that have never complained, fully accepting them in the past, and this is your first time complaining, fine... you know who you are and can ignore this post. But complaining about advertising is as old as advertising...


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

RoyK said:


> Yet.


Yep, yet... (but isn't)

The brakes on my car haven't failed... yet... either... but that doesn't stop me from driving.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

classicX said:


> 1) Record three HD channels at once (one OTA, two Sat)


:down:

That's no advantage in my book.

Most of my conflicts would be during prime time TV, limiting me to one OTA tuner would mean it's only recording one things at a time.



morac said:


> I'd still like to know what getting NAILED has to do with watching Terminator.


Or STRAWBERRY SHORTCAKE!!!


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Einselen said:


> Wait, that just made me think of something. If people are so upset about the ads, why not just setup an ARWL for teleworld set it to keep only 1 and place it at the bottom of your season pass manager. That way the TiVo will never be able to record the teleworld program at get the star content for the ads and they will be gone. Sure it sucks since it takes up space for the show, but no more ads and really no extra work for you besides the initial setup.


Does this get downloaded by the daily call? Can we block an IP or something to prevent the ad downloads?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Does this get downloaded by the daily call? Can we block an IP or something to prevent the ad downloads?


You can search for Teleworld Paid Program, click on the program, view upcoming episodes, and cancel the recordings. Its just like a season pass except it doesn't show in the season pass list or to-do list.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

mchips said:


> Yep, yet... (but isn't)
> 
> The brakes on my car haven't failed... yet... either... but that doesn't stop me from driving.


If you are going to quote me please either include the entire quote or provide ellipses to indicate that there is more.

Likely the reason your brakes haven't failed is that you paid attention to the warning signs (thin pads, squealing) and did something in response.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

RoyK said:


> You can search for Teleworld Paid Program, click on the program, view upcoming episodes, and cancel the recordings. Its just like a season pass except it doesn't show in the season pass list or to-do list.


That is just for video. The ads will still be present however.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

rainwater said:


> That is just for video. The ads will still be present however.


Yes. Unfortunately.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Yeah I was mistaken. I thought maybe it would limit the ads, but still if there is no preview video and they want you to setup a season pass for the DIY show then the star will still show up.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

RoyK said:


> Likely the reason your brakes haven't failed is that you paid attention to the warning signs (thin pads, squealing) and did something in response.


True... brakes wear out over time, that is a given... but not everything deteriorates indefinitely. Material things do... concepts, ideas, not so much.

It's prudent to replace brakes when necessary, _before_ they fail. But it wouldn't be prudent to replace your brakes every other day for normal driving.

There's being prudent, and then there's being obsessive-compulsive.

The key is knowing when the warning signs are real, or just imagined, or just a result of one's own pessimism.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

RoyK said:


> Yes. Unfortunately.


So, then what does it matter... if you're not going to click on the ads, then you're not going to see the videos whether they're there or not.

It seems to me that you're expending a lot more energy griping about and trying to get around even having the ads there than it takes to just simply ignore them.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

kmill14 said:


> Continuing my assumption that these people don't have a DVR today, you are willing to force them to continue watching advertisements all day long because you have issues with line-item ads? Your personal issues with the box will supercede your relatives/friends/others from a better tv-viewing experience?
> 
> Even if these people who you will not recommend TiVo to DO have a DVR today, my guess is it is a CABLE DVR, and those things typically SUCK serious ASS. Comcast has blasted ads all over its guide, and the idea of forcing people to continue to use generic, crappy DVRs because you have issues with line-item ads is just plain selfish.


You make it seem as is TiVo is free and I'm doing this disservice by not recommending it. TiVo's total cost wound up a little more than I expected, so at this higher cost the program needs to almost be flawless for me to recommend it over just getting the other more convenient box...

I used a VCR and then a DVD recorder for years before deciding that they weren't keeping up with my viewing habits. But not everyone watches enough TV that they need sophisticated programs to manage them! Ineed, most of my family members don't. They can definitely afford to hang in there a couple years until the other guys get it right.

Besides, skipping commercials is what's selfish. Some poor business owner had to skip lunch because you did


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

JaneiR36 said:


> You make it seem as is TiVo is free and I'm doing this disservice by not recommending it. TiVo's total cost wound up a little more than I expected, so at this higher cost the program needs to almost be flawless for me to recommend it over just getting the other more convenient box...
> 
> I used a VCR and then a DVD recorder for years before deciding that they weren't keeping up with my viewing habits. But not everyone watches enough TV that they need sophisticated programs to manage them! Ineed, most of my family members don't. They can definitely afford to hang in there a couple years until the other guys get it right.
> 
> Besides, skipping commercials is what's selfish. Some poor business owner had to skip lunch because you did


The disservice is not recommending it solely because of the ads, when cable co. DVRs have ads as well, and even more of them.

As people have said, TiVo is not for everyone, as not everyone can afford the premium price for a premium product.

Some people drive Kia's, while others drive a Lexus... and there's nothing wrong with that.

People buy what they can afford, and what meets their needs. Though people may not always know what may be worth the extra price for themselves until they try it for themselves. I, myself, never thought the TiVo service would be worth the fee myself, until I got one, essentially as a gift... once I had it, I can't be without it. I now have four. Hopefully, you're giving your family/friends all of their options, including TiVo, and letting them make up their own minds.

None of us are saying that you have to push TiVo on anyone... we just object to doing the opposite, when the alternative is even more ad-driven.

None of us are even saying that anyone has to like the ads.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

RoyK said:


> Yet.
> 
> But it's much worse than it was a month ago. And a month or so it was much worse than six months ago (TiVo Central Star ad became blatant)


Unfortunately, your observations are going to fall on deaf ears. Wait... Didn't someone already state that many of the pro-ad people here have tunnel vision?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mchips said:


> True... brakes wear out over time, that is a given... but not everything deteriorates indefinitely. Material things do... concepts, ideas, not so much.
> 
> It's prudent to replace brakes when necessary, _before_ they fail. But it wouldn't be prudent to replace your brakes every other day for normal driving.
> 
> ...


Well, the ads are already on the screen... how much more real can it get?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mchips said:


> ... None of us are saying that you have to push TiVo on anyone... we just object to doing the opposite, when the alternative is even more ad-driven. ...


That makes total sense.



> None of us are even saying that anyone has to like the ads.


Maybe not - but you have made it quite clear that complaining about them is wrong.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Unfortunately, your observations are going to fall on deaf ears. Wait... Didn't someone already state that many of the pro-ad people here have tunnel vision?


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Well, the ads are already on the screen... how much more real can it get?


The reality isn't that they exist... we know they exist...


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Maybe not - but you have made it quite clear that complaining about them is wrong.


Then you don't yet understand, and that is not at all what I have been quite clear about... the problem is not complaining, it's being Chicken Little and screaming the sky is falling, when it isn't... that you're going to turn people away from TiVo because of the ads, when the alternatives have even more... i.e., get out of the lake because it's wet and jump into a pool instead...

It's the overexaggeration that's the problem.

As I said in this very post that you quoted, and you even included this quote:

"None of us are saying that you have to push TiVo on anyone... we just object to doing the opposite, when the alternative is even more ad-driven."

I've never said that complaining is the problem. It's making something out of nothing, as you're doing with my words here, that's the problem.

People are going to complain about ads... they always have, and they most likely always will. I don't think any of us are going to be able to stop that. Complaining about advertising is as old as advertising itself.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mchips said:


> ... People have always been complaining about the ads, and every time, they say the same thing, TiVo just crossed the line... well, according to many, that line was crossed several years ago, so it's just the same old same old arguments...  ...


I have always complained that I hate the ads. This is the first time I said they crossed the line (as far as I can remember). I'm torn over this situation because I really don't want to cancel my subscriptions, but on the other hand, I really don't want to see the ads.

I guess I'm hoping that TiVo is listening to the complaints, and it won't take losing subscribers before they offer an ad free option.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mchips said:


> The reality isn't that they exist... we know they exist...


So I ask you this. Does it mean that I have to accept them just because they exist?


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Dcifrths, we know you're willing to pay more for no ads... you've said that many times, both here and elsewhere.

But most people are not, or cannot, and it has already been proven that people aren't willing to pay more even when it includes the box for free, so if they're not willing to pay more for a free box, why would they pay more for no ads... they won't.

TiVo is not just trying to make an extra buck with these ads... they're just trying to get out of the red... if TiVo made the kind of profits that Microsoft does, then, no, I wouldn't be as accepting of the ads. But I'm taking the whole picture into account, instead of just narrowly focusing on the ads alone... it's you, my friend, that has the tunnel-vision... not I...


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> So I ask you this. Does it mean that I have to accept them just because they exist?


No, that wasn't the point at all, and now you're taking something and twisting it all around into something completely different...


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

You said:


mchips said:


> The key is knowing when the warning signs are real, or just imagined, or just a result of one's own pessimism.


I responded:


DCIFRTHS said:


> Well, the ads are already on the screen... how much more real can it get?


You responded:


mchips said:


> The reality isn't that they exist... we know they exist...


That is my point. They exist, they are not imagined, they are not a result of my pessimism, and they *are* warning signs. Obviously you agree with that. Why did you roll your eyes?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mchips said:


> No, that wasn't the point at all, and now you're taking something and twisting it all around into something completely different...


See my post above.

I'm not twisting anything. I hate the ads. I want them off my box, and I have no problem with not recommending an ad subsidized service.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> You said:
> 
> I responded:
> ...
> ...


The reality is that the ads exist... yes... that's true... the imagined, or pessimistic attitude, is that they are going to get as bad as cable company DVRs... that is not real, nor may ever be.

<edit>
And no, I do not agree that they are warning signs... that's where the imagined comes in; that is, where people's imaginations are determining what those warning signs are or are not, and what they may or may not mean.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> See my post above.
> 
> I'm not twisting anything. I hate the ads. I want them off my box, and I have no problem with not recommending an ad subsidized service.


See my post above... you're completely misunderstanding what I was referring to as real vs. not real...

I've never said, nor implied, that because they exist you have to accept them... they can be ignored.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I have always complained that I hate the ads. This is the first time I said they crossed the line (as far as I can remember). I'm torn over this situation because I really don't want to cancel my subscriptions, but on the other hand, I really don't want to see the ads.
> 
> I guess I'm hoping that TiVo is listening to the complaints, and it won't take losing subscribers before they offer an ad free option.


So, are you going to cancel TiVo because they're ad-driven, and switch to the cable company DVR, which is also ad-driven.

If you feel TiVo has crossed the line, then cable company DVRs crossed that line years ago.

Here's a thought, maybe you should switch to the cable company DVR first, and then switch back to TiVo because the cable company DVR is ad-driven.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mchips said:


> The reality is that the ads exist... yes... that's true... the imagined, or pessimistic attitude, is that they are going to get as bad as cable company DVRs... that is not real, nor may ever be.
> 
> <edit>
> And no, I do not agree that they are warning signs... that's where the imagined comes in; that is, where people's imaginations are determining what those warning signs are or are not, and what they may or may not mean.


Not acknowledging that the consistently increasing ads are a warning sign - a warning that they will continue to grow - is really closing your eyes to reality.

"It won't get worse" and "you are blowing this out of proportion" are the same comments I read when I complained about the first gold star.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Not acknowledging that the consistently increasing ads are a warning sign - a warning that they will continue to grow - is really closing your eyes to reality.
> 
> "It won't get worse" and "you are blowing this out of proportion" are the same comments I read when I complained about the first gold star.


Speculation is not reality...

The ads exist... that's real... speculating on how worse they will or won't be is not... it's not a reality until it becomes a reality, until then, it's just speculation, thus open to debate, and often affected by one's own pessimistic or optimistic attitudes.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mchips said:


> So, are you going to cancel TiVo because they're ad-driven, and switch to the cable company DVR, which is also ad-driven.
> 
> If you feel TiVo has crossed the line, then cable company DVRs crossed that line years ago.
> 
> Here's a thought, maybe you should switch to the cable company DVR first, and then switch back to TiVo because the cable company DVR is ad-driven.


For a long time, I used the Cablevision HD DVR because TiVo had not yet released an HD version of their product. HD was more important to me than the DVR interface. Let me be clear here: *I never once saw an ad in the Cablevision DVR interface.*

The only reason I stay with TiVo is because it's an amazing product (albeit less amazing with the ads). I really like TiVo, and that's why I haven't left.

It's possible that Cablevision is now running ads, but I wouldn't be able to confirm this.

Edit: Removed content.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

I just want to state that I am going to refrain from posting in this thread - at least for a while  because I have decided that I would rather ignore the ads, than lose TiVo. With that said, hopefully the future will bring back an ad free TiVo.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> The only reason I stay with TiVo is because it's an amazing product...


At least we agree on one thing... 

(and hopefully cleared up some of our miscommunication via PM)


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I'm getting something a little bit different. I watch a show from my NPL. I hit stop at the end of the program. In addition to the normal options (delete show, save..._)I now get an option to watch the commercial. 

Is the next step to just automatically play the commercial before (or after) we watch a show from the NPL? Disable FF and advance during the commercial?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

lew said:


> I'm getting something a little bit different. I watch a show from my NPL. I hit stop at the end of the program. In addition to the normal options (delete show, save..._)I now get an option to watch the commercial.
> 
> Is the next step to just automatically play the commercial before (or after) we watch a show from the NPL? Disable FF and advance during the commercial?


Not new...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=330865


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DCIFRTHS said:


> "It won't get worse" and "you are blowing this out of proportion" are the same comments I read when I complained about the first gold star.


And you WERE blowing the gold star out of proportion. Until 1 year ago, the gold star was all there was. Yeah, now the complainers about that can say "we told you so", but the reality is that for years you complained about something that very few people cared about.

The reality is that TiVo's business model has always been explicitly ad friendly, and complaining about that is ridiculous. What you CAN complain about, and what people do with these latest ads, is the implementation of it. But you can't complain about the implementation of something that hasn't been implemented yet.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I can't believe some people stayed up all night arguing about the reality of ads. Or maybe they live in Europe. 

In any case it's difficult to compare cable DVR'd ads and TiVo's ads since they seem to take different directions. Cable TV plasters the guide screen with ads, but as far as I'm aware (I don't have a cable DVR), they don't put ads in your recording list or at the end of your recordings. TiVo on the other hand does not put any ads in the guide, but puts them at the end of your recordings and in your NPL. Which is better or worse is what you have to decide.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

morac said:


> I can't believe some people stayed up all night arguing about the reality of ads. Or maybe they live in Europe.
> 
> In any case it's difficult to compare cable DVR'd ads and TiVo's ads since they seem to take different directions. Cable TV plasters the guide screen with ads, but as far as I'm aware (I don't have a cable DVR), they don't put ads in your recording list or at the end of your recordings. TiVo on the other hand does not put any ads in the guide, but puts them at the end of your recordings and in your NPL. Which is better or worse is what you have to decide.


No it isn't. I don't have a cable DVR and don't care where they plaster their ads, if they do, or how many they 'plaster'. I do have TiVo and about where and how many ads TiVo plasters I care greatly. I have given negative recommendations to prospective purchasers several times recently based both on the growing proliferation of ads and the fact that TiVo software has been riddled with unfixed bugs for from four to six months of every year that I've been a subscriber.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

morac said:


> I can't believe some people stayed up all night arguing about the reality of ads. Or maybe they live in Europe.
> 
> In any case it's difficult to compare cable DVR'd ads and TiVo's ads since they seem to take different directions. Cable TV plasters the guide screen with ads, but as far as I'm aware (I don't have a cable DVR), they don't put ads in your recording list or at the end of your recordings. TiVo on the other hand does not put any ads in the guide, but puts them at the end of your recordings and in your NPL. Which is better or worse is what you have to decide.


IMO... Cable DVRs are mainly for people who watch live TV and occasionally or never record shows. TiVos are mainly for people who watch recorded shows and occasionally or never watch live TV. So I'm guessing that's why they place the ads differently.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I have always complained that I hate the ads. This is the first time I said they crossed the line (as far as I can remember). I'm torn over this situation because I really don't want to cancel my subscriptions, but on the other hand, I really don't want to see the ads.


I agree that TiVo has taken a step over the line with the now playing ads that my highlight lands on when I skip to the end. I am not torn however as I see no alternative to TiVo that comes close to what TiVo standalone offers. Ads have never been something that is my largest decision factor and I suspect we will see people moving from TiVo over the ads in now playing, but not enough to offset the revenue possible from now playing ads. 


> I guess I'm hoping that TiVo is listening to the complaints, and it won't take losing subscribers before they offer an ad free option.


I hope that as well and it would be great to see TiVo compromise a little bit and code up now playing so that the highlight would fall on the last actual show and not the ad when skipping to the bottom.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

MickeS said:


> IMO... Cable DVRs are mainly for people who watch live TV and occasionally or never record shows. TiVos are mainly for people who watch recorded shows and occasionally or never watch live TV. So I'm guessing that's why they place the ads differently.


If only there was a DVR with the best features of both. Comcast's TiVo heads in the right direction but comes up short. :up: :down:


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

People keep claiming that these ads don't affect anything.

That's absolutely not true!

I very commonly go into a folder, hit the page down to get to the oldest show, then hit play.

NOW, I get to watch a ad wondering where my show is. OH YEA, back arrow, up arrow, play. <SIGH>


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

Someone mentioned in one of the ad threads that TiVo would die without the ads, as if hardware sales and service subscriptions aren't enough. I believe James Tiberius Kirk said it best: 




Apple's iPod succeeded with the hardware/service/no ads model, why can't TiVo?

I have no stake in TiVo whatsoever. If their company goes under, and the box ceases to function, I'll just get another HR21.  Hell, all is not lost for the TiVo box. I can mod the case and install a mini-ITX motherboard and run MythTV. Sounds like a good plan to me. :up:

___


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

RoyK said:


> No it isn't. I don't have a cable DVR and don't care where they plaster their ads, if they do, or how many they 'plaster'. I do have TiVo and about where and how many ads TiVo plasters I care greatly. I have given negative recommendations to prospective purchasers several times recently based both on the growing proliferation of ads and the fact that TiVo software has been riddled with unfixed bugs for from four to six months of every year that I've been a subscriber.


RoyK, I posted last night (now 2 pages back) directing a question to you and others who will not recommend TiVo due to these ads "plastered" (your word) all over the device. Are these "prosective purchases" currently without a DVR of any kind and are they cable suscribers? What kind of advertising are they forced to watch today and would Tivo make it worse or better for their viewing habits?


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

Fixer said:


> Someone mentioned in one of the ad threads that TiVo would die without the ads, as if hardware sales and service subscriptions aren't enough. I believe James Tiberius Kirk said it best:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fixer, on the comment regarding iPods, last I checked, they aren't DVRs and are nowhere near the same type of product. As for advertisements, they are all over iTunes...they just happen to be for products that exist on iTunes. I find it highly annoying personally. 

And as for your " I can mod th ecase and install blah blah blah", you represent maybe 0.1% of the TV viewing population of America.

I would bet that at least 80% of TiVo viewers could care less and probably hardly notice the line-item ads on their menu system.


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## ilh (Dec 21, 2007)

Switching from a DirecTiVo to a TiVo HD recently, the first thing my wife said when she saw the THD is "Why are there so many ads, aren't we paying a monthly fee? The old TiVo didn't have those." This was with regard to the big ad at the bottom of the TiVo Central and the ads in the NPL.

My wife is generally a perfect example of the typical consumer.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

FWIW I don't believe my MOXI has any ads anywhere (very rarely use the guide, so I can't say for sure), and it definitely has no ads in their version of the Now Playing list.

At MINIMUM TiVo ought to restore the expected functionality by having the skip to tick button take you to the last show in a folder, rather than the ad at the end of that folder.
(IMO, of course)


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## Playloud (Jan 6, 2008)

Crrink said:


> FWIW I don't believe my MOXI has any ads anywhere (very rarely use the guide, so I can't say for sure), and it definitely has no ads in their version of the Now Playing list.


I haven't seen a single ad on my MOXI box either.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ilh said:


> Switching from a DirecTiVo to a TiVo HD recently, the first thing my wife said when she saw the THD is "Why are there so many ads, aren't we paying a monthly fee? The old TiVo didn't have those." This was with regard to the big ad at the bottom of the TiVo Central and the ads in the NPL.
> 
> My wife is generally a perfect example of the typical consumer.


So she canceled the service?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Crrink said:


> FWIW I don't believe my MOXI has any ads anywhere (very rarely use the guide, so I can't say for sure), and it definitely has no ads in their version of the Now Playing list.


since MOXI - Gigeo is going belly up in the standalone market they may not be the best example.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> :down:
> 
> That's no advantage in my book.
> 
> Most of my conflicts would be during prime time TV, limiting me to one OTA tuner would mean it's only recording one things at a time.


I don't understand your argument - how is being able to record three HD channels not an advantage over being able to record two?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

classicX said:


> I don't understand your argument - how is being able to record three HD channels not an advantage over being able to record two?


Note this is not an advantage of the upcoming standalone [Echostar] Sling TR-50 HDTV DVR. That box will not record three channels simultaneously.

As far as the Vip622/Vip722 satellite DVRs, I guess that advantage depends upon the availability of your local channels via satellite and their picture quality. Last I checked, Dish still did not carry PBS-HD and most other networks outside of the big four.

It is worth nothing that Echostar currently has no plans to use advertisements on their upcoming [subscription-free] Sling TR-50 DVR. It differs from past TVGOS products in that it does not use the TVGOS software; Dish Network modified their own software to use the TVGOS data stream. Of course, Echostar does plan to sell VOD and PPV using MPEG-4 IPTV before year's end.

TivoHD

 *Pro:* Supports cable and OTA
 *Pro:* Relatively low price ($250 retail)
 *Con:* 160Gb capacity, just 20 HD hours
 *Con:* $12.99/mo or $129/yr fee
 *Con:* Advertisements

Sling TR-50 HDTV DVR

 *Con:* Supports OTA only
 *Pro:* "Very competitive price"
 *Pro:* 250GB capacity, "minimum of 30 HD hours"
 *Pro:* No monthly fees
 *Pro:* No advertisements
 *Pro:* MPEG-4 HDTV PPV and VOD using IPTV "by year's end"


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

It's going to be hard to compare the Sling to the THD, as the one Con you mention for the Sling is a VERY BIG con for many people...

For those who only watch OTA, it could be a very viable alternative.

But to those who prefer still having access to their cable channels (Sci-Fi, MTV, etc.), it will not be.

Another Con I've seen mentioned is the Guide Data, which would also be another very big con, is that it relies on local PBS stations (as far as what I've read here on these forums, so I guess I need to take that for what it's worth), which, if true, is not all that reliable in many markets, including where I live.

It'll be interesting to see just how many people, if any, drop cable for OTA only with the sling. Though it could very well be an option for those already on OTA only and are facing losing their analog signal next year with the digital switch.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

It's funny (to me) that I am seeing primarily DIY ads on my TiVo and according to a notice Comcast Houston is dropping DIY from the line-up.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Langree said:


> It's funny (to me) that I am seeing primarily DIY ads on my TiVo and according to a notice Comcast Houston is dropping DIY from the line-up.


People that don't even have cable (i.e. only use OTA) get these DIY advertisements as well.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> People that don't even have cable (i.e. only use OTA) get these DIY advertisements as well.


So they aren't targeted, even by market or availability. Spam.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mchips said:


> It'll be interesting to see just how many people, if any, drop cable for OTA only with the sling. Though it could very well be an option for those already on OTA only and are facing losing their analog signal next year with the digital switch.


another aspect will be analog only extended basic cable users IF their cable company switches over to digital. Will they want to go digital along with the cable company and start having to use STBs and so forth or will they look around at other things like the Sling OTA box and drop the cable company?


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> another aspect will be analog only extended basic cable users IF their cable company switches over to digital. Will they want to go digital along with the cable company and start having to use STBs and so forth or will they look around at other things like the Sling OTA box and drop the cable company?


I think that would still fall under the category of whether or not they want to lose their cable channels or not (like Sci-Fi, MTV, etc.).

I think the desire to continue watching programs on cable channels will be more of the deciding factor for people as to whether or not they decide to go OTA only, which, of course, isn't affected by the 2009 cutoff date next year, as many cable providers, including mine, will still be providing analog cable for some time after that... if they decide they don't want to give up their cable channels, then they can decide whether they want to go with the cable company's DVR, or try TiVo out instead... if they decide to go OTA only, then their options would be a free digital converter from the government, or then possibly the Sling... or even the THD, since it'll do OTA only as well, if they wanted to keep their options open to go back to cable in the future, instead of tying themselves down to OTA only with the Sling.

Bottom line, there will be additional options for consumers, but it'll come down to whether or not they want to continue watching programs on various cable channels or not, or limit themselves to OTA only... and, of course, what people can or want to afford...


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

I had actually considered dropping cable myself when I first got my THDs, the OTA reception was so good on my local channels.

There aren't many programs on cable that I watch regularly, but there are some (Stargate, Battlestar, Eureka, Kyle XY, and The 4400 to name those that first come to mind). I weighed my options, thinking I could find those programs on the Internet and still be able to transfer and watch on my THD, and/or rent the DVDs when they came out. I thought that would save me $40-50 per month. I eventually decided to keep cable, as, for me, it was worth the money to save the hassle and time involved in getting these programs elsewhere, and/or having to wait until the DVDs came out. I also like having my cable music video channels, among other cable channels that I watch on occasion.

I suspect others may go through something similar. At one time, cable was the choice for many people because of the better picture quality over OTA. With digital/HD, that won't be as much of an issue with OTA. So, it may be more content than quality as the new deciding factor for them.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Note this is not an advantage of the upcoming standalone [Echostar] Sling TR-50 HDTV DVR. That box will not record three channels simultaneously.
> 
> As far as the Vip622/Vip722 satellite DVRs, I guess that advantage depends upon the availability of your local channels via satellite and their picture quality. Last I checked, Dish still did not carry PBS-HD and most other networks outside of the big four.
> 
> ...


As far as ads on the Sling it's nice to say none are planned but how does anyone really know the future. At this point Sling DVR is vaporware.

Sling had better not cost more than $100 over HDTiVo! Its biggest potential capacity advantage over TiVo isn't 90GB's of internal HDD but rather E*'s system of enabling use of multiple external generic HDD's for a one time $40 fee.

If Sling costs under $350 and has an analog as well as digital OTA tuner so it can record from a standard-def external source (but not control it) it may an interesting competitor for TiVo households. Sling's got a fairly large but very specialized market that TiVo also serves.

At least Dish doesn't require its subs to pay for local channels as DirecTV does. No provider in my area offers all 'local' channels, but Comcast does much better than either satellite service.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

kmill14 said:


> Fixer, on the comment regarding iPods, last I checked, they aren't DVRs and are nowhere near the same type of product. As for advertisements, they are all over iTunes...they just happen to be for products that exist on iTunes. I find it highly annoying personally.


Comparing TiVo to iPod is a whole hell of lot more sound than comparing it to magazines, which seems to be the first thing the fanboys, zealots, and stock holders bring up when an ad argument starts. Magazine publishers are *NOT* CE companies and they *DO NOT* offer a dynamic service; that's two strikes against the argument. Here's strike three: The price a consumer pays for a mag is for distribution. The ads pay for the materials (paper, ink, etc), the writers, the editor's hefty salary, the publisher's building, the press machines, the donuts by the coffee machine... I'm sure you get the point. What do the ads on TiVo pay for??



kmill14 said:


> As for advertisements, they are all over iTunes...they just happen to be for products that exist on iTunes.


And that's the same as the TiVo ads? The iTune "ads" are more akin to the local 7-11 plastering signs all over their windows that say "Cigarettes -$3.99", "Gallon Milk - $4.99", "44oz Big Gulp - 99¢", etc.



kmill14 said:


> And as for your " I can mod th ecase and install blah blah blah", you represent maybe 0.1% of the TV viewing population of America.


Well, only about 0.6% of the U.S. population own a TiVo, so I guess 0.1% is a pretty good start. :up: 



Langree said:


> So they aren't targeted, even by market or availability. Spam.


+1 :up:

___


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

classicX said:


> I don't understand your argument - how is being able to record three HD channels not an advantage over being able to record two?


Because there is only ONE OTA, vs. TWO on my TiVo, and I record a LOT over the air.

So if a show is on Fox at the same time as NBC, on the dish box only one gets recorded.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Fixer said:


> which seems to be the first thing the fanboys, zealots, and stock holders bring up when an ad argument starts. ___


so who ar you really arguing against? TiVo and the ads or the people who like TiVo DVRs and think that ads are just part of the economy/culture?


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

Not that the new E* DVR product is really relevant to this entire conversation, but how many people utilize OTA signals these days?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

kmill14 said:


> Not that the new E* DVR product is really relevant to this entire conversation, but how many people utilize OTA signals these days?


Around 15% of the American population.

Presumably more once the analog signals are shut off, and consumers learn they can get equal or better picture quality on the local networks without paying any monthly fees to their cable provider.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Around 15% of the American population.
> 
> Presumably more once the analog signals are shut off, and consumers learn they can get equal or better picture quality on the local networks without paying any monthly fees to their cable provider.


Yeah, I think OTA will make quite a splash again in areas where it can be received. OTA + Unbox/Netflix/Apple TV or similar services will probably satisfy quite a few current basic cable customers.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

If you have lousy analog reception I think you basically you have no digital reception from that station.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

pdhenry said:


> If you have lousy analog reception I think you basically you have no digital reception from that station.


Thought they were going to moving stations around. The new digital version may be on a different frequency. Not sure if that would help though for a fringe station.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Yeah, I was totally ignoring frequency effects. I just meant that if you're in the analog fringe you're SOL digitally - there's no digital equivalent to a snowy analog picture, where it's not great but basically tolerable.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

pdhenry said:


> If you have lousy analog reception I think you basically you have no digital reception from that station.


That hasn't been my experience. If you have lousy analog reception, you have CRYSTAL CLEAR digital reception.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

But if you have lousy digital reception it can truly be unbearable to watch at times. Yeah, I got one of those OTA channels.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> since MOXI - Gigeo is going belly up in the standalone market they may not be the best example.


Well, I did say FWIW, and I was adding the information more for the people blanketly using the cable co DVR's as an example of an ad platform that is more egregious than TiVo.
For whatever reason Adelphia, which I used to have, and Charter, which I now have, did not choose to do this on the MOXI platform.

And I don't think I'd consider Digeo a player in the standalone arena anyway - don't think they ever sold any standalone boxes, and I don't think the presence, or non-presence, of ads was a factor in whatever difficulties they're having now.

I'd be willing to bet their ability to make deals with a number of cable co's years earlier than TiVo was able to was far more lucrative than any of TiVo's advertising revenue to date...though that's only a guess.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> That hasn't been my experience. If you have lousy analog reception, you have CRYSTAL CLEAR digital reception.


Same here. I don't think they're related. I had awful, unwatchable analog signal, and crystal clear picture with the TiVo indicating 70%-90% signal strength on digital.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

mchips said:


> TiVo is not just trying to make an extra buck with these ads... they're just trying to get out of the red...


While this makes sense, what it says to me as a new customer is that I backed a losing horse by choosing TiVo. Whether it's complaints about substandard customer service or the ads, TiVo's lack of profit seems to be the reason / excuse you get. Add this to the high cost, and yes, maybe people I know may be better off watching some ads or using a cheaper, sub-standard DVR. In the grand scheme of things, having this product is not that important, IMO.

I *love* the car analogy! As a used car owner, I can expect the occasional problem that carried over from the previous use / lifetime of the car. But no way would I accept the same BS from an expensive, brand new car. I wouldn't keep quiet and tell prospective customers to stick it out because of "features." They would be better off paying a heck of a lot less and buying a new car that never gives problems but has less features. If no such car exists, then I say they keep their money and ride it out with the used car.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

Can you post some pictures as to what these advertisements look like? I'd like to see what those complaints are. As of right now, I don't have a standard TiVo. Mine are DTV branded TiVo's. Before I jump into this, I'd like to find out just how annoying this really is.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

TiVo customers has had an advertisement in TiVo Central for a long time.










With the DVR button a universal remote, it is possible to bypass TiVo Central and directly open the Now Playing list.

The main Now Playing screen does not have advertisements.










But this past week, TiVo added advertisements to folders within the Now Playing list.









Not every folder has an advertisement. I have an advertisement like this in about 30% of my folders.

A similar advertisement was also added to delete actions in 2007.









Not every delete action has such an ad. Maybe 50%.


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## Playloud (Jan 6, 2008)

That reminds me. I have to watch "The Turk" tonight (Sarah Connor Chronicles).

Does Tivo only make money if we watch the ads? If so, they might as well turn them off for me. I won't watch them.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Playloud said:


> That reminds me. I have to watch "The Turk" tonight (Sarah Connor Chronicles).
> 
> Does Tivo only make money if we watch the ads? If so, they might as well turn them off for me. I won't watch them.


You don't have to watch them... that would be an unrealistic goal to expect that everyone will watch them. They only need a certain percentage of their user base to watch them, which does happen, believe it or not.

Advertising works, regardless of how many people complain about them.

They work, and they pay for things we'd otherwise have to pay for, or pay more for.

But people just love complaining about them, and have for decades.

It's something people love to hate... and yet, they still work, and the most avid ad-haters are influenced or informed by ads even though they may not be willing to admit it... and if they ever become a business owner themselves, they'll be joining in the ad game as well. It's difficult for businesses to grow by word of mouth alone, hence advertising.

I'd like to see TiVo do some more advertising of their own. I see a number of their ads on the Internet, but not much on TV. Even though I'm not a mac person, nor do I own an iPod, I have to admit that Apple has had some very creative ads over these past several years. I'd like to see that same creative team come up with some creative TV ads for TiVo as well.

I'm into the Sarah Connor Chronicles as well... excellent new series... (yep, it was advertised on TiVo as well)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mchips said:


> I'm into the Sarah Connor Chronicles as well... excellent new series... (yep, it was advertised on TiVo as well)


not much of a fan of ads in now playing myself, mainly because when I hit "skip to tick" to go to the end of the list I end up highlighting the ad and then have to move off it. But that is still a minor annoyance versus added revenue. No plans for me to give up the TiVo DVRs at all.

Also I used the Sarah Conner ad on main menu to watch the preview before it came out and setup the Season pass right from the ad. So I actually like and use some of the ads that show up on the TiVo.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

kmill14 said:


> RoyK, I posted last night (now 2 pages back) directing a question to you and others who will not recommend TiVo due to these ads "plastered" (your word) all over the device.


"Plastered" was morac's word, not mine and he used it in reference to Cable DVRs. I asserted that there has been a 'growing proliferation' of ads on TiVo, which is a fact.



kmill14 said:


> Are these "prosective purchases" currently without a DVR of any kind and are they cable suscribers? What kind of advertising are they forced to watch today and would Tivo make it worse or better for their viewing habits?


As I recall at least two have cable DVRs, three others have no DVRs. At least one of those three is not a cable subscriber. Of the five, one did buy a TiVoHD.

I wouldn't presume to say whether TiVo would make it better or worse for their viewing habits. They basically asked if, knowing what I know now and given the current pricing, I would buy TiVo and subscribe today and I told them I would not based on the two reasons in my earlier post.

Also notice that I based my opinion on more than the ads alone....


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> Because there is only ONE OTA, vs. TWO on my TiVo, and I record a LOT over the air.
> 
> So if a show is on Fox at the same time as NBC, on the dish box only one gets recorded.


Er - In most markets, Dish offers HD locals (at least the big four - CBS, NBC, FOX, and ABC).

I'm my case, if I were using an OTA antenna, I could record three separate shows (one on each of the above mentioned networks).

While I have never seen OTA broadcast quality, I can tell you that my HD channels in Dish (the locals, and channels that generally have excellent quality, like Discovery HD) look no different than they did with Comcast, who were using little to no compression on HD channels.

So I suppose either I don't understand your argument or you don't understand how the Dish ViP DVRs work.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

mchips said:


> It's something people love to hate... and yet, they still work, and the most avid ad-haters are influenced or informed by ads even though they may not be willing to admit it... and if they ever become a business owner themselves, they'll be joining in the ad game as well. It's difficult for businesses to grow by word of mouth alone, hence advertising.


You have to pick what truly burns your hide. People who choose to stop recommending TiVo are probably not going to be doing much more complaining. They are taking action with their secondary purchasing power.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

mchips said:


> The disservice is not recommending it solely because of the ads, when cable co. DVRs have ads as well, and even more of them.


As stated before, not all cable companies have ads. I've had comcast DVRs, cablevision DVRs, TiVos, and now I have Dish DVRs. The only time I've ever seen an ad in the NPL is with TiVo. I've never seen an ad in any programming guide. You keep making this argument as if the alternative is _always_ more ad-laden.



mchips said:


> As people have said, TiVo is not for everyone, as not everyone can afford the premium price for a premium product.


<facetious>Are you saying that TiVo is "for" you solely based on whether or not you can afford it?</facetious>

I can afford to buy several TiVos. I like(d) TiVo's interface. So why do I not have any TiVos? Slow interface. Bugs go unfixed for months (and sometimes years). Now ads in the NPL.

And the major reason - principle. I refuse to pay outright for the box, then pay monthly on top of that, and NOW have ads in my NPL.



mchips said:


> . . . it has already been proven that people aren't willing to pay more even when it includes the box for free. . .


Have you compared the numbers of cable/sat DVR users versus the number of TiVo users? With more than one DVR on cable, you end up paying more in DVR fees than you would with the same number of TiVos. Why do you think that is? I'm willing to bet that for more than 75% of them, it's because of up-front costs.

(For me it's because I like Dish's interface better than TiVo)



mchips said:


> TiVo is not just trying to make an extra buck with these ads... they're just trying to get out of the red... if TiVo made the kind of profits that Microsoft does, then, no, I wouldn't be as accepting of the ads. But I'm taking the whole picture into account, instead of just narrowly focusing on the ads alone...


By your logic, and by virtue of the fact that we like a product, we should support increasing suckiness based solely on the fact that the added suckiness is directly related to the company trying to stay afloat?

If we use the car analogy again, it makes no sense. Because I the like experience of driving a certain manufacturers automobiles, and said manufacturer is always in the red, I should continue to buy them, even though I am annoyed that the car becomes more and more sluggish over time, and now, every time I put the car in reverse, the speakers say "Want to NAIL that parallel parking every time? Try Toyo tires!"

Would you honestly say that this is fine because you are "taking the whole picture into account"?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> Fixer, on the comment regarding iPods, last I checked, they aren't DVRs and are nowhere near the same type of product. As for advertisements, they are all over iTunes...they just happen to be for products that exist on iTunes. I find it highly annoying personally.


Um... I can turn off the ads (i.e. the 'Mini Store') that are shown when I'm looking at MY music library.

I don't know what other ads you're talking about - the iTMS? Sure, there are ads - but you are IN the store, presumably looking for music. Not unheard of, I think. Apple doesn't get paid every time you preview and song from an ad.

I don't think people would object if TiVo adopted a similar model - it wouldn't be such a big deal if these new ads were advertising new TiVo services, right, since you're already using a TiVo?


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

mchips said:


> But people just love complaining about them, and have for decades.
> 
> It's something people love to hate...


I don't like to see the ads on my Tivo while paying for the Tivo service. I don't "love" to complain about them. This is simply a bogus statement and a false assumption and takes away from everything you've written up until this point. I don't "love" to "hate" anything except maybe you right now.

Y-ASK


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

classicX said:


> As stated before, not all cable companies have ads. I've had comcast DVRs, cablevision DVRs, TiVos, and now I have Dish DVRs. The only time I've ever seen an ad in the NPL is with TiVo. I've never seen an ad in any programming guide. You keep making this argument as if the alternative is _always_ more ad-laden.


"always..." Typical overexaggeration of what has been said...

Other DVRs have ads where TiVo does not... most other DVRs are ad-driven, we can argue forever and who has what where...

My cable company DVR does not have an NPL as such, but each recording, when selected, has an ad of its own. I know other DVRs have similar.



classicX said:


> I can afford to buy several TiVos. I like(d) TiVo's interface. So why do I not have any TiVos? ....


I don't care why you don't have any TiVo's, just that you don't... so why are you even here then... clearly to turn people away from TiVo to Dish... thus, you're putting your foot into an issue, namely the NPL ads, that you are not even getting... 

I will never switch to Dish... I'd go with DirecTV before I'd take Dish... I have no respect for Dish's business practices... but that's a topic for the lawsuit thread...



classicX said:


> Have you compared the numbers of cable/sat DVR users versus the number of TiVo users? With more than one DVR on cable, you end up paying more in DVR fees than you would with the same number of TiVos. Why do you think that is? I'm willing to bet that for more than 75% of them, it's because of up-front costs.


Yep, many cannot afford the hardware, and also have never had a TiVo to realize its benefits... I, myself, could not justify getting a TiVo, that is, until I got one almost five years ago now... I now own four of them. Once I got one, I can't be without one. As long as TiVo cannot work with SAT, I will never get SAT.

It's still the best DVR out there. Many just don't know it, because they've never had one.



classicX said:


> By your logic, and by virtue of the fact that we like a product, we should support increasing suckiness based solely on the fact that the added suckiness is directly related to the company trying to stay afloat?




TiVo does not suck, and most people here agree, or they wouldn't be here expressing opposition to the ads... they'd just leave TiVo... but they don't want to give up their TiVo... they just want to lose the ads... it's their passion for the product that keeps them here.

As someone said, they're still with TiVo, in spite of the ads, because "it's an amazing product."

And then there's those like you that are just here with their own agenda, exploiting every thread that has anything negative to say about TiVo, to pitch Dish... 



classicX said:


> If we use the car analogy again, it makes no sense. Because I the like experience of driving a certain manufacturers automobiles, and said manufacturer is always in the red, I should continue to buy them, even though I am annoyed that the car becomes more and more sluggish over time, and now, every time I put the car in reverse, the speakers say "Want to NAIL that parallel parking every time? Try Toyo tires!"
> 
> Would you honestly say that this is fine because you are "taking the whole picture into account"?


Again, it all depends on what people don't like about a product... as far as sluggishness... hogwash... My TiVo's are not sluggish by any stretch of the imagination... since you no longer have TiVo's, you're the last person I would listen to on that...

As far as Dish, you're making me respect Dish even less... to use your words, it's Dish that "sucks!"

Yes, TiVo isn't perfect, as neither is anything else in life... now that I know you're agenda, this is just now DVR politics, and you're taking a page from our politicians with mudslinging... if you don't like TiVo, and prefer Dish, then go to the Dish forums...

People can either choose to help a company succeed, or help in their demise... I choose to help companies I support succeed... and TiVo is one of those companies. :up:


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Y-ASK said:


> I don't like to see the ads on my Tivo while paying for the Tivo service. I don't "love" to complain about them. This is simply a bogus statement and a false assumption and takes away from everything you've written up until this point. I don't "love" to "hate" anything except maybe you right now.
> 
> Y-ASK


People love to hate ads... the fact that you won't even acknowledge this takes away from what you're trying to say...

People loving to hate ads is so commonplace... it's not just me... this is something that's decades old...

You'd have more clout saying that yes, that's true, but you still don't like the NPL ads... but trying to argue that "people don't object to ads, they just object to NPL ads," is just stupid.

And saying that you love to hate me... <sarcasm>Isn't it wonderful how we can have such a mature exchange of ideas.</sarcasm>

Given the context of your entire post,  icon or not, I don't see you just joking... you and I do not have such a rapport.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

I dislike the ads and "Love" has nothing to do about it. I don't like complaing but I have noticed that there are some people that like to write way too much. That's probably a sign they talk too much to.

Y-ASK


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Y-ASK said:


> I don't like complaing...


You could have fooled me... you can say it, but your actions prove otherwise.



Y-ASK said:


> ...but I have noticed that there are some people that like to write way too much. That's probably a sign they talk too much to.


Again, I say <sarcasm>Isn't it wonderful how we can have such a mature exchange of ideas.</sarcasm>.



p.s. Though I guess you could be talking about classicx instead, with his long posts...


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> another aspect will be analog only extended basic cable users IF their cable company switches over to digital. Will they want to go digital along with the cable company and start having to use STBs and so forth or will they look around at other things like the Sling OTA box and drop the cable company?


Then Satellite re-enters the picture with essentially the same channel line-up as cable. Satellite DVR service is cheaper than cable + TiVo.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

mchips said:


> I don't care why you don't have any TiVo's, just that you don't... so why are you even here then... clearly to turn people away from TiVo to Dish... thus, you're putting your foot into an issue, namely the NPL ads, that you are not even getting...


I have no agenda and no stake in the success or failure of Dish. I simply like the interface. I'm here because I joined when I had Tivos.

Secondly, I am frequently at my brother's house, who has three Tivos, and as such I have current experience with them.



mchips said:


> I will never switch to Dish... I'd go with DirecTV before I'd take Dish... I have no respect for Dish's business practices... but that's a topic for the lawsuit thread...


To each his own; I'm not trying to sell Dish.



mchips said:


> TiVo does not suck, and most people here agree, or they wouldn't be here expressing opposition to the ads...


Talk about an over-exaggeration of what has been said - I never said that TiVo sucked. I said that there are factors that add "suckiness."



mchips said:


> And then there's those like you that are just here with their own agenda, exploiting every thread that has anything negative to say about TiVo, to pitch Dish...


I'm not pitching Dish - I'm stating facts. I'm sure if someone incorrectly stated that Tivo randomly deletes recordings, you would chime in, correct?

And if you read back, I'm not even the one who brought up Dish in this thread - in fact, I had several posts before Dish was even mentioned, and even then it was to rebut a false statement.

So as far as "injecting Dish" into ever thread I'm in, I'm sorry you feel that way but I was just trying to give the benefit of my experience, which is quite different than most people on these forums.



mchips said:


> Again, it all depends on what people don't like about a product... as far as sluggishness... hogwash... My TiVo's are not sluggish by any stretch of the imagination... since you no longer have TiVo's, you're the last person I would listen to on that...


That's your prerogative. As I said, I have current and ongoing experience with TiVo, and I am far from a TiVo basher. I even used my TiVo points to get my brother a Glo remote - If I were a TiVo hater, I a) wouldn't even have had TiVo points, and b) wouldn't have used them for a gift for a TiVo user.



mchips said:


> As far as Dish, you're making me respect Dish even less... to use your words, it's Dish that "sucks!"


Well, there's not that I can do about that; suffice it to say I don't really care, I'm not trying to sell Dish or get people to switch. Since when did stating one's opinion about a product warrant condemnation?



mchips said:


> Yes, TiVo isn't perfect, as neither is anything else in life... now that I know you're agenda, this is just now DVR politics, and you're taking a page from our politicians with mudslinging... if you don't like TiVo, and prefer Dish, then go to the Dish forums...


I am here because I like the community on these forums (generally). If I have any "agenda" at all, it's to get news about TiVo, since I do like the interface and would return to TiVo if the barriers to entry (relevant to my personal situation) are corrected.

If you search back, when the Series 3 was announce I was literally itching to get a pair, but then the details were released and I was very disappointed.

Please don't put me in the same category as 'newsposter' and the like.



mchips said:


> People can either choose to help a company succeed, or help in their demise... I choose to help companies I support succeed... and TiVo is one of those companies. :up:


Strange that you don't see any middle ground - if I'm not for TiVo I'm somehow against them?


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

classicX said:


> <snip>


Well... you and I could go tit-for-tat all day, but now that I see your agenda, it's not worth my time.

There's nothing you can say that will change my opinion of TiVo, as my experiences with TiVo have been nothing less than wonderful, and I will continue to recommend them to everyone I know.

I'm more than happy to be the Yang to your Yin. 

I'd go to the Dish forums, and do there what you're doing here, but I don't play those games, plus I figure Dish has enough disgruntled customers, as does any company, that there's probably already enough of that there as well.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Anyway, I'd like to get back to the subject of this thread, and a question to which I didn't see an answer.

If you watch the ad, does it get removed from the NPL or folder in which it appeared?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

mchips said:


> There's nothing you can say that will change my opinion of TiVo, as my experiences with TiVo have been nothing less than wonderful, and I will continue to recommend them to everyone I know.


There happens to be one thing you're forgetting: I do not care.

I'm not interested in changing your opinion of TiVo, which is why I'm done with this "discussion" after this post.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

classicX said:


> There happens to be one thing you're forgetting: I do not care.


Obviously you do, or you wouldn't be expending so much time and energy debating me, line-item by line-item...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> I don't like complaing Y-ASK


I have seen you 99% of the time in the threads complaining about something TiVo is doing and rarely speaking of what you like about TiVo. Simple fact.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

classicX said:


> Anyway, I'd like to get back to the subject of this thread, and a question to which I didn't see an answer.
> 
> If you watch the ad, does it get removed from the NPL or folder in which it appeared?


No, I did watch the ad for 1968 last month and even gave it a thumbs up to record.

The line item still appeared after that.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

Langree said:


> No, I did watch the ad for 1968 last month and even gave it a thumbs up to record.
> 
> The line item still appeared after that.


If that's the case, I'd just ignore them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

classicX said:


> Anyway, I'd like to get back to the subject of this thread, and a question to which I didn't see an answer.
> 
> If you watch the ad, does it get removed from the NPL or folder in which it appeared?


I tried one and it did not go away after a couple times going back to main menu and back into now playing and the group (Medium, Australia ad)


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

classicX said:


> Er - In most markets, Dish offers HD locals (at least the big four - CBS, NBC, FOX, and ABC).


76 out of 210, so no, not most.

Yea, hopefully you can get the big four (not everywhere), in a reduced higher compressed version of HD.

but there are a lot of other channels besides the BIG Four.



classicX said:


> So I suppose either I don't understand your argument or you don't understand how the Dish ViP DVRs work.


I don't have an 'argument'. I'm just saying 1 OTA tuner is not enough for *ME*. I'm sure it's fine for other people. I won't own a DVR without two OTA tuners.


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## DrWho453 (Jul 16, 2005)

Well, I finally got the ads in the folders. It looks like if a folder has already been created then you don't get the ads because I have a couple of folders that have been around for a while that tivo added some more recordings to them but no ads. However, I recorded chuck last night and got both episodes so a new folder was created and I got the ad. 

Well, advertisements have been spilling out into all kinds of places over the past few years and I guess things will only get worse before they get better if they ever do get better. Ads are now in movie theaters and I hate that though if they can keep the ticket price from going up that might be a good thing. I like getting to the movie early to find a good seat and I like watching the previews so I can see if there is anything coming out that I want to see but I hate seeing commercials in the movie theater. Oh well, next thing we will see toasters sponsored by weight watchers, and refrigerators sponsored by Spam and cars sponsored by Pepsi. Oh good grief, well this nightmare ever end?


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have seen you 99% of the time in the threads complaining about something TiVo is doing and rarely speaking of what you like about TiVo. Simple fact.


Exactly! Of course you havn't seen many positive post from me, you've only been around since 2004. A lot of positive things were said early on when Tivo actually listened to their customers, times have changed and Tivo has changed. Tivo Inc. has put me in the unfortunate position where all I can do is complain about what I believe in principle to be wrong. Can you not see the difference between someone complaining for the simple joy of complaining (Which I have not!) and someone complaining because they would like to see a change.

And you've missed many of my post where I talked about trying to put together a HTPC system, the problems I had with it, and how much I really like Tivo's UI better. So just in case you missed it, I really like the Tivo UI and how well the remote works with the system and will stick with it because I have spent thousands of dollars on Tivo equipment.

And for the record, I never told any friends or family not buy Tivo. I've just stopped talking about it and if asked I tell them what I like and don't like and let them decide. No one can be forced not to purchase a Tivo, unless maybe if you're in jail.

Y-ASK


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> Exactly! Of course you havn't seen many positive post from me, you've only been around since 2004.
> Y-ASK


my bad and my apologies then. Thanks for filling in the back story.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I tried one and it did not go away after a couple times going back to main menu and back into now playing and the group (Medium, Australia ad)


I think people wouldn't be so up in arms if the ad at least went away if you watched it once or twice. I'm certain they are tracking how many actual views they get.

How many different ads are there? I've only seen a handful anyway.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> I don't have an 'argument'. I'm just saying 1 OTA tuner is not enough for *ME*. I'm sure it's fine for other people. I won't own a DVR without two OTA tuners.


Ah, I see now.

Personally I just prefer symmetric tuners - I'd hate to have a conflict because two shows that I want to record are only available on one tuner.

Suffice it to say, I don't even have an OTA antenna, since most shows that I watch are not network shows anyway - but if it means saving $70-80 per month, I could be persuaded to go OTA only.

I'm seriously considering it once my contract is up.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

classicX said:


> I think people wouldn't be so up in arms if the ad at least went away if you watched it once or twice. I'm certain they are tracking how many actual views they get.
> 
> How many different ads are there? I've only seen a handful anyway.


so far it is a handful. TiVo seems able to put them in specific show folders, so I assume they can also decide which ad goes in whcih folder.

however the problem of making the ad go away after x views is that many would then view the ads to make them go away and the advertiser would not trust the number of times ads viewed anymore.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so far it is a handful. TiVo seems able to put them in specific show folders, so I assume they can also decide which ad goes in whcih folder.
> 
> however the problem of making the ad go away after x views is that many would then view the ads to make them go away and the advertiser would not trust the number of times ads viewed anymore.


You could play the ad while you went to the bathroom or something, but how is that different from having the ad on live TV?

At least the ad is being played and not ignored.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

classicX said:


> You could play the ad while you went to the bathroom or something, but how is that different from having the ad on live TV?
> 
> At least the ad is being played and not ignored.


the difference TiVo has is that they can tell precisely if the ad was viewed and how, also they have opt in ability. Australia ad had a line item of - do you want more info - you click that and it asks - do you wanta travel rep to contact you? along with privacy policy and final warning that TiVo will give them your contact info. No ads like that on TV except for "operators are standing by"

so sure the age old I went to the bathroom still is there but if the ad stays anyway - why even click on them before a bathroom trip, unless you wnat to inflate TiVo's ad views.


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## HeatherA (Jan 10, 2002)

My biggest problem with the ads is that I pay for the service TiVo offers. If they want to overwhelm us with ads (the new tivocast ad pushed me over my line tonight) then fine, but don't charge me a monthly fee to use the TiVo service.

We have 3 MCE machines actively recording in our home at any given time and 3 TiVos (2 subscribed, 1 series 1 unsubscribed) and I have yet to see an ad on my MCE machines, nor have I paid a subscription for them. Granted I'll pay up front to build 2 more MCE machines, but I see that this is in my near future if the tivocast ads roll out onto the main recordings. I'm already removing my tivocast subscriptions because of the one on CNet last night.

The ads in the folders didn't bother me too much when I saw them, but they did cause me to wonder... what next?


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

mchips said:


> TiVo does not suck, and most people here agree, or they wouldn't be here expressing opposition to the ads... they'd just leave TiVo... but they don't want to give up their TiVo... they just want to lose the ads... it's their passion for the product that keeps them here.


I don't know about passion, but I already paid for 3 years of the service. Even those on a month-to-month might wish to first get their money's worth out of capital invested in the box!


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

JaneiR36 said:


> I don't know about passion, but I already paid for 3 years of the service. Even those on a month-to-month might wish to first get their money's worth out of capital invested in the box!


Precisely!


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

JaneiR36 said:


> I don't know about passion, but I already paid for 3 years of the service. Even those on a month-to-month might wish to first get their money's worth out of capital invested in the box!


Ok, I think I get what you're trying to say now (I initially misunderstood the point you were trying to make, and am therefore modifying my post)... you're saying that you're just staying with TiVo because you already paid for it, not because you're passionate about the service?

Well, that's not an entirely valid argument... if you dislike it so much, there are options... there are many people who would buy your box off of you if you want to get rid of it... I've never had a problem selling my old boxes each time I've upgraded to a newer one, and I've consistently heard the same thing from others.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

HeatherA said:


> If they want to overwhelm us with ads then fine, but don't charge me a monthly fee to use the TiVo service.


If TiVo was profitable you'd at least have an argument.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

mchips said:


> As far as capital invested, I don't get the argument (or rather, I get it, it's just not valid)... capital invested doesn't mean no ads, and never has, in any business model, and as many have stated, there are an infinite number of examples where people pay for things, and still are subject to ads, as the ads help to keep that initial capital investment down to begin with, that would have otherwise been much higher, so, contrary to what you may believe, capital invested is still being obtained, even with ads... with TiVo, or any other product or service...


Too much double-speak! Are they using ads to try to stay afloat, or to make more money and be just like everyone else?


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

JaneiR36 said:


> Too much double-speak! Are they using ads to try to stay afloat, or to make more money and be just like everyone else?


First, I modified my original post, see above, as I initially misunderstood what you were trying to say...

But as far as your post here, "double-speak"  

"make money or be just like everyone else?'

Like, what!?


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

mchips said:


> TiVo does not suck, and most people here agree, or they wouldn't be here expressing opposition to the ads... they'd just leave TiVo... but they don't want to give up their TiVo... they just want to lose the ads... it's their passion for the product that keeps them here.


"Passion"?? ROFL!!! Dude, "passion" has nothing to do with it. The folks complaining about TiVo already invested a lot into the device, either through lifetime or a commitment plan, so it's a matter of trying to get the most out of that investment. The box still functions as it was originally intended, a video recording device, so I'll keep it until it dies or TiVo Corp. dies, which ever comes first.

___


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Fixer said:


> "Passion"?? ROFL!!! Dude, "passion" has nothing to do with it. The folks complaining about TiVo already invested a lot into the device, either through lifetime or a commitment plan, so it's a matter of trying to get the most out of that investment. The box still functions as it was originally intended, a video recording device, so I'll keep it until it dies or TiVo Corp. dies, which ever comes first.
> 
> ___


For many, it has a lot to do with passion... I didn't just make it up, dude!

It's been well publicized in the media... TiVo owners are known for their passion about TiVo...

And I don't buy the investment argument in the least... Lifetime will sell for a premium on ebay right now, with people able to get much more than what they invested in that lifetime should they want to sell it (since the Lifetime option is no longer being offered to new subscribers)... so, it would be profitable for those people to sell their TiVo's... but, they don't, because they are passionate about keeping TiVo... if they weren't, selling it would give them a much greater return on that investment than keeping something they don't want, if they really didn't want it. No one is just holding onto it until it dies because they have no other choice... give me a break... dude!


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## Agent86 (Jan 18, 2002)

I've recently gotten the ads, and I'll say a few words about them.

I'm honestly not thrilled with them. What bothers me the most is that they are in Now Playing, and that the "Channel Up", "Channel Down" and "Skip to Tick" shortcuts will take you to the ad instead of your bottom show. If they fixed that, I would certainly be happier about it.

I do not mind the star ads on the TiVo main menu, nor do I mind the ads on the "Keep or Delete" screen. They're fine, really. Though if they fixed the way you jump to the star in Now Playing it would be nice if they fixed it on the TiVo main menu as well.

I do prefer a "clean" Now Playing screen. I understand TiVo needs/wants ads, but I always considered that my oasis from it all. I would rather have ads elsewhere instead of there, though I understand the ads are likely there because that is where a lot of time is spent.

At the chance of being burned at the stake, I'll throw what I feel is a good advertising idea toward TiVo:

Bring back TiVolution Magazine and channel showcases.

When you had the TiVolution Magazine, I went into the Showcase section weekly to flip through it and see what was going on. Since it started disappearing, I haven't bothered. When I went in there for the TiVolution Magazine, I'd usually poke around the other sections - including advertisers.

If you brought back TiVolution Magazine and channel showcases I think more people would go into the other showcases you publish as a result of that.

Perhaps not enough people did that, and that's why those things are gone. But that's why I don't go into that menu anymore, for what its worth.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

mchips said:


> For many, it has a lot to do with passion... I didn't just make it up, dude!
> 
> It's been well publicized in the media... TiVo owners are known for their passion about TiVo...
> 
> And I don't buy the investment argument in the least... Lifetime will sell for a premium on ebay right now, with people able to get much more than what they invested in that lifetime should they want to sell it (since the Lifetime option is no longer being offered to new subscribers)... so, it would be profitable for those people to sell their TiVo's... but, they don't, because they are passionate about keeping TiVo... if they weren't, selling it would give them a much greater return on that investment than keeping something they don't want, if they really didn't want it. No one is just holding onto it until it dies because they have no other choice... give me a break... dude!


There is no "argument to be had. A lot of people don't think like you, simple as that. So, the "sell it on E-Bay" "argument" holds no water either. You seem to "invalidate" everyones point of view because it isn't your own. Thank goodness for free will because I'd hate to be a drone with so much "passion" for something. 

___


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Fixer said:


> There is no "argument to be had. A lot of people don't think like you, simple as that. So, the "sell it on E-Bay" "argument" holds no water either. You seem to "invalidate" everyones point of view because it isn't your own. Thank goodness for free will because I'd hate to be a drone with so much "passion" for something.
> 
> ___


Just stupid...

"drone" - no relevance here whatsoever

"free will" - again, no relevance

You typify my example of people who make arguments out of absolutely nothing.

I didn't say everyone has passion... I didn't say everyone is selling it on ebay, as obviously everyone is not... and I never said everyone has to or does think like me.

"invalidate everyone's position"

Typical overexaggeration...

I'm not invalidating anyone's position here, but yours, when you come on here with such an idiotic post with ROFLOL and dude (which I've noticed you do to others as well, instead of making intelligent counterpoints), and what not, and make such stupid claims, trying to invalidate my position, I'm going to call you on it... :down:

My talking about passion is something widely known both here, and in public... you can laugh at all you want, but it only shows how ill-informed you are...

I return to people what they throw at me... if someone wants to have a civil discussion, I'm there... want to throw crap at me, I can throw with the best of them.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

it will be interesting to see TiVo's earnings statements at the end of the quarter - then we'll see if these ads were worth it for them.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

mchips said:


> Just stupid...
> 
> ...when you come on here with such an idiotic post with ROFLOL and dude...
> 
> ...I'm going to call you on it... :down:


LOL!! Sorry I'm not as "serious" about TiVo as others, but it's just a gadget. I have nothing to gain or lose whether I praise or criticize it. How about you?

Your vain attempt at a personal attack will not work. You've spelled it out in all of your posts in this thread: nothing is "relevant" unless it follows your way of thinking. I'm glad I don't think like you because I'd be one boring individual.

You can keep going on and on with you "TiVo is great" and how "passion for TiVo is something widely known" speeches because I'm out of this thread, which I'm sure was your goal to begin with. LOL!!! 

___


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Fixer said:


> LOL!! Sorry I'm not as "serious" about TiVo as others, but it's just a gadget. I have nothing to gain or lose whether I praise or criticize it. How about you?
> 
> Your vain attempt at a personal attack will not work. You've spelled it out in all of your posts in this thread: nothing is "relevant" unless it follows your way of thinking. I'm glad I don't think like you because I'd be one boring individual.
> 
> ...


Again, you're grabbing things out of the air that are not there...

Personal attack? Uh, you started the rounds...

And I'm glad I don't think like you, because I'd be one stupid individual. 

Goodbye...


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

mchips said:


> Personal attack? Uh, you started the rounds...


Link please. K, thx 

___


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Fixer said:


> Link please. K, thx
> 
> ___


Uh, just look at all of your posts, just above... K, thx


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

mchips said:


> Uh, just look at all of your posts, just above... K, thx


OH RLY?? Where?????? 

___


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Fixer said:


> OH RLY?? Where??????
> 
> ___


 Uh, me too...

I made no more personal attacks against you than you did me... I only threw at you, what you threw at me.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

mchips said:


> Uh, me too...
> 
> I made no more personal attacks against you than you did me... I only threw at you, what you threw at me.


Actually, you attack often - with references to "Chicken Little".
Also, you are guilty of "typical overexaggeration" with your characterizations of "the sky is falling", when I have seen no one actually make any such claim. I -HAVE- seen people say that TiVo may be heading down a path that could lead to their demise. That may or may not be true. It looks like those people were right about one thing, unfortunately. The "ad revenue model" at TiVo is expanding and becoming more and more intrusive as shown here -

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=382575

I do not agree that people "love" to complain about ads. Yet another "typical overexaggeration" of yours. I would bet that people complain about ads because they hope to dissuade abuse. To protect their enjoyment of something else. But "love"??? Just because someone does something does not prove that they "love" to do it. It can be effective. I'll give you an example -

When "The Honeymooners" was first rebroadcast by channel 11 many years ago, it was filled with an excessive amount of commercials interrupting the show. People complained, and channel 11 responded to the dissatisfaction by cutting back on the interruptions dramatically.

We like our TiVo's. I have two S3's and two 3-year service contracts. Not a small investment. So, while I did mention my concern about the growing placement of ad-based menu items on my TiVo, especially in my program folders, I did also go on record as saying that they were fairly innocuous. I did complain, in another thread however, about the big popup ad during FF. Trust me, I did NOT "love" making this complaint. In fact, it saddened me to have to do so.

Companies will sometimes push until the complaints get too loud. For this reason, people have to voice their opinion. From reading your previous posts in this thread, I'll bet that you never thought TiVo would force ads on the screen that block your view while FFing through a show and trying to find a certain segment. Did you?

Jim H.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

jhimmel said:


> Actually, you attack often - with references to "Chicken Little".
> Also, you are guilty of "typical overexaggeration" with your characterizations of "the sky is falling", when I have seen no one actually make any such claim.


This is the kind of stupid and idiotic posting that takes away from any and all credence of anything legit that you might have to say.

But is very typical of those who like to complain... they then attack those that won't complain along with them. I don't attack, and don't come in and tell me that I "often" do when I most certainly do NOT!  (but don't attack me, and not expect a little in return)

Just another example of the overexaggerations that I've been talking about.

I absolutely do not attack often or otherwise, and had never used the Chicken Little analogy until this thread, as it does apply to many of the posters here... plain and simple... I applied it, when it applied...

If you don't see it, it's because you don't want to see it, because your mind is so narrowly focused on not liking the ads, that you're accepting anyone who complains along with you... birds of a feather flock together...

As I've said many times over, there's nothing wrong with not liking them... there's nothing wrong with expressing opposition to them... but when making claims like the end is near, this is now a sign that TiVo is going out of business, is nothing more than akin to Chicken Little's cry that the sky is falling.

:down:


----------



## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

jhimmel said:


> ... people have to voice their opinion...


Exactly! And I've never told anyone they don't have a right to their opinion... as a matter of fact, I have often said otherwise...

I recently posted in another thread:

"I agree, we should let our opinions known, for and against. That's the great thing about a democratic society."

Those of us for, also need to be heard, as studies have shown that people will complain far more often than they will express favor for.

But on the contrary, those that like to complain have often told me, and other "fanboys" to shut up... I've never told anyone to shut up, or to even get out of a thread... people can post their opinions, but don't expect that we're all going to agree, and just by disagreeing with you, we are not saying you don't have a right to have that opinion...



jhimmel said:


> From reading your previous posts in this thread, I'll bet that you never thought TiVo would force ads on the screen that block your view while FFing through a show and trying to find a certain segment. Did you?
> 
> Jim H.


Since you brought it up, I'll post my opinion on that topic as well, word from word from what I just posted the other day in another thread:

I once objected to the pop-ads when FF'ng through commercials, that is, until I actually saw them in practice. When I first heard about it, I thought they were going to be random pop-ups covering actual commercials, when I actually like to watch the commercials when they grab my attention and didn't want them covered by other ads. There are some here that will remember my vocal objections to them. As it turned out, the pop-ups are from the same advertiser, covering their own commercials, so as far as I see it, they have every right to cover their own commercial with another ad if they so choose. It's their commercial that they're covering up, and what a creative way to counteract DVR FFng. Kudos to TiVo for giving them that option.

If you're referring to the cnet/Norton TiVoCast issue, that's something different, and nothing I can comment on yet as I've not yet seen it myself.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

mchips said:


> If you're referring to the cnet/Norton TiVoCast issue, that's something different, and nothing I can comment on yet as I've not yet seen it myself.


Check it out - that is exactly what I was referring to. It also shows that some fears were warranted. TiVo seems to be testing the waters to see how far they can push.

As to the rest of your rant - it is exactly what I expected of you. More attacks and exaggerations.
Thank you for making my point so well!

Jim H.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

jhimmel said:


> Companies will sometimes push until the complaints get too loud. For this reason, people have to voice their opinion.


I agree, but there are people on this forum that take it to the extreme, seemingly complaining about every little thing, that it often then becomes like the boy who cried wolf, leaving many of us just thinking, great, what are they complaining about now, they're never satisfied...

Before people start attacking me saying that they don't, when I say things like this, I'm not saying EVERYONE... if you don't, great, then it doesn't apply to you.

I pick and choose my battles, instead of making everything a battle...

As far as the ads, they don't bother me in the least... and judging from a recent poll, and other posts, there are many who feel the same.

The ads have not yet met my limit, and until then, I'm not going to get all up in arms that the sky is falling... I'll express my opposition to them, at such time that I feel opposed to them.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

jhimmel said:


> As to the rest of your rant - it is exactly what I expected of you. More attacks and exaggerations.




Back at ya...


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

It's amusing to me what some people consider attacks.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

mchips said:


> If you're referring to the cnet/Norton TiVoCast issue, that's something different, and nothing I can comment on yet as I've not yet seen it myself.


Please be sure and check back when you do.
I am curious to see if you are fine with it.

Jim H.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

Langree said:


> It's amusing to me what some people consider attacks.


This is the kind of stupid and idiotic posting that takes away from any and all credecence of anything legit that you might have to say.

Just being friendly!


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

jhimmel said:


> I do not agree that people "love" to complain about ads. Yet another "typical overexaggeration" of yours.


Uh, not mine... just another commonly known fact...

People have been complaining about advertising for decades... it's something people love to hate... btw, that's just an expression... you don't need to take it literal, word by word.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

jhimmel said:


> This is the kind of stupid and idiotic posting that takes away from any and all credecence of anything legit that you might have to say.
> 
> Just being friendly!


See, now if I felt like playing with you, I might respond, but I won't since I might say something insulting and attack you.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

Langree said:


> See, now if I felt like playing with you, I might respond, but I won't since I might say something insulting and attack you.


Now THAT hurts! 

Jim H.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

mchips said:


> I pick and choose my battles, instead of making everything a battle...


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

fallingwater said:


>


I'm sorry, I don't get what you're saying...

But interesting song... I don't think I'd heard it before... odd lyrics... I ended up doing some searching on the Internet to try and figure out what it was really talking about... seems there's a bit of controversy over what the lyrics really mean, including many who think it's references to drugs, similar to Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds (LSD), with other references that may be to the Vietnam war. From what I've found so far, it doesn't seem anyone really knows for sure, or I just haven't found someone yet that does know for sure. Have the Beatles spoken up about the real meaning behind these lyrics?


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

mchips said:


> I'm sorry, I don't get what you're saying...
> 
> But interesting song... I don't think I'd heard it before... odd lyrics...


I'm surprised you never heard it before. There's really nothing to get. It's just a song which satirically expresses absurdly exaggerated passion and sounds good!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

classicX said:


> it will be interesting to see TiVo's earnings statements at the end of the quarter - then we'll see if these ads were worth it for them.


What makes you think you can tell the effect of these specific advertisements on the company from its earning statements? You can't.

The reality is that unless you work for TiVo, you have no choice, other than to trust their judgment with regard to their internal decision-making. You simply don't and will never know enough to be able to make a substantiated criticism of what you are clearly dying to criticize, on financial grounds.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

mchips said:


> But is very typical of those who like to complain... they then attack those that won't complain along with them.


Amen. Some folks are clearly looking for an un-rebutted soap-box to express their vitriol. That's called a *blog* -- not a discussion board.

Some folks like to extol the virtues of so-called "venting". Well those folks are dead-wrong. Catharsis Theory was advanced in the 19th Century and has been used a rationalization for such poor conduct every since, but Catharsis Theory is AFAIC bunk. The first experiments weren't done until the 1950s, and the results were opposite what Catharsis Theory predicted: People venting generally get more agitated, not less -- venting has the exact opposite impact as intended. The definitive study on this was published in 1977. The only reduction in agitation comes from complaining directly to the provocateur. [Source: Geen, R. G., & Quanty, M. B. (1977). The catharsis of aggression: An evaluation of a hypothesis. In L. Berkowitz (Ed.), Advances in experimental social psychology (Vol. 10, pp. 1-37). New York: Academic Press.] The results of this study were re-confirmed in 1999.

And that just shows that venting is counter-productive to the person doing the venting. I'm sure it is less surprising to people to learn that venting also has counter-productive impact on bystanders, and on society as-a-whole.



mchips said:


> Just another example of the overexaggerations that I've been talking about.


Of course: The poison just feeds on itself.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> Amen. Some folks are clearly looking for an un-rebutted soap-box to express their vitriol. That's called a *blog* -- not a discussion board.
> 
> Some folks like to extol the virtues of so-called "venting". Well those folks are dead-wrong. Catharsis Theory was advanced in the 19th Century and has been used a rationalization for such poor conduct every since, but Catharsis Theory is AFAIC bunk. The first experiments weren't done until the 1950s, and the results were opposite what Catharsis Theory predicted: People venting generally get more agitated, not less -- venting has the exact opposite impact as intended. The definitive study on this was published in 1977. The only reduction in agitation comes from complaining directly to the provocateur. [Source: Geen, R. G., & Quanty, M. B. (1977). The catharsis of aggression: An evaluation of a hypothesis. In L. Berkowitz (Ed.), Advances in experimental social psychology (Vol. 10, pp. 1-37). New York: Academic Press.] The results of this study were re-confirmed in 1999.
> 
> ...


Feel better now that you've vented?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Well, actually I wasn't venting. The study makes the distinction with regard to the direction of the expression of concern. Geen and Quanty concluded that venting anger can reduce agitation if people express their anger directly against the provocateur (as opposed to towards proxies, bystanders, or inanimate objects). So in this case, I'm expressing my "anger" directly to those who provoked it. My expectation is that a small percentage of them will internalize what I've presented to them, and modify their behavior going forward, complaining directly to TiVo instead of online, thereby improving their own situation as well as that of everyone else. :up:


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

As I read it you think that people who are upset with TiVo should inform TiVo in private and not present their frustration and anger in a public forum. I agree with the first point but not the second. This is a discussion forum, not a TiVo promotional site. More than a few of us are disgusted with some of the things that TiVo has done or not done lately and we are going to express our displeasure regardless of your attempts at modifying our behavior. If that bothers you then I suggest you improve your situation by ignoring our expressions.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bicker said:


> What makes you think you can tell the effect of these specific advertisements on the company from its earning statements? You can't.
> 
> The reality is that unless you work for TiVo, you have no choice, other than to trust their judgment with regard to their internal decision-making. You simply don't and will never know enough to be able to make a substantiated criticism of what you are clearly dying to criticize, on financial grounds.


There is a fair amount of info that can be gleaned from the information that a company releases.

Anyway, my comment was more of a backhanded way of saying that I hope all of this new ad revenue is worth I for TiVo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> As I read it you think that people who are upset with TiVo should inform TiVo in private and not present their frustration and anger in a public forum. I agree with the first point but not the second. This is a discussion forum, not a TiVo promotional site..


still - as much as I do not like the latest ad moves by TiVo myself, posting about that here at any length will not have more effect but just kind of dull the whole board to the noise. Kind of like a bird outside your window that does not stop singing, you tend to tune it down considerably.
I am waiting on the next TiVocast myself to verify that the ads will show up at any FFpoint and are not just an accident of tagging on the first one. If it is intentional then I will write directly to TiVo and explain why I canceled my Cnet TiVocast season pass. That in itself will not stop the ads but it will be a direct expression of my feelings in the matter and thus cathartic while contributing a data point for TiVo on the snetiment towards ads.

more direct action has always been my hope from these threads though I have rarely seen any direct action expressed.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

RoyK said:


> As I read it you think that people who are upset with TiVo should inform TiVo in private and not present their frustration and anger in a public forum. I agree with the first point but not the second. This is a discussion forum, not a TiVo promotional site.


Indeed, the point is that we should be discussing TiVo, helping each other get the most from our devices. Anger and frustration are surely within charter. The point is that, as proven by the studies, such venting is simply counter-productive.



RoyK said:


> More than a few of us are disgusted with some of the things that TiVo has done or not done lately and we are going to express our displeasure regardless of your attempts at modifying our behavior.


And hopefully some _will _change. That's all I can wish for.



RoyK said:


> If that bothers you then I suggest you improve your situation by ignoring our expressions.


It doesn't "bother" me. >shrug< If my comments bother you then I suggest you improve your situation by ignoring my comments. And please take any more *personal *comments to Private Messages. Thanks.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

RoyK said:


> As I read it you think that people who are upset with TiVo should inform TiVo in private and not present their frustration and anger in a public forum. I agree with the first point but not the second. This is a discussion forum, not a TiVo promotional site. More than a few of us are disgusted with some of the things that TiVo has done or not done lately and we are going to express our displeasure regardless of your attempts at modifying our behavior. If that bothers you then I suggest you improve your situation by ignoring our expressions.


Another main problem with trying to contact TiVo directly is that there is really only one way to contact TiVo and that is over the phone. The phone contact is for service questions and billing issues, not for complaints. In fact I'm not sure the phone reps would even pass on complaints or if they did, if they would get it correct since it would literally be like playing a game of telephone.

The only other known methods of contacting TiVo are the peer help forums over at tivo.com and this forum. Neither place officially gets you in touch with a TiVo employess, but it is known TiVo employees browse the threads here. Since a number of problems reported in these forums have gotten attention of TiVo employees that would make this one of the better places to post.

The ultimate way of registering a complaint (and for a few people on this board apparently the *only* way) is canceling your service. Well if you have a lifetime service contract there is no way to "cancel" that bar stop using your TiVo. If you are under a 1 to 3 year contract there is no way to cancel without being hit by a early termination fee. In both cases there is a monetary penalty for canceling which outweighs any possible negative aspects that the user is currently experiencing.

In any case, most people just want to register their complaints to TiVo and not actually cancel. Short of tying up the phone lines trying to explain to level one customer service reps what it is you are actually complaining about (and tying up the lines so people with actual issues can't get through), posting here is the next best thing.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

I called TiVo to ask other questions and while I was there, I asked about the advertisements. 

They said you can opt out of it. I forgot to ask if the software would be limited in any way, but you can opt out of it.

How come nobody ever calls them to see what could be done about it before bashing TiVo? I see where this love/hate thing comes from.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Scott D said:


> How come nobody ever calls them to see what could be done about it before bashing TiVo?


Because CSRs will tell you anything to get you off the line.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Scott D said:


> I called TiVo to ask other questions and while I was there, I asked about the advertisements.
> 
> They said you can opt out of it. I forgot to ask if the software would be limited in any way, but you can opt out of it.
> 
> How come nobody ever calls them to see what could be done about it before bashing TiVo? I see where this love/hate thing comes from.


there is no opting out of the ads being discussed here


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> there is no opting out of the ads being discussed here


Go give them a call and come back and tell us what they said. They had no reason to lie to me since I didn't have their service anyway.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> Because CSRs will tell you anything to get you off the line.


Read post #279

Besides, that's how DTV does business!


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Scott D said:


> Read post #279
> 
> Besides, that's how DTV does business!


Read post #277.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Scott D said:


> Go give them a call and come back and tell us what they said. They had no reason to lie to me since I didn't have their service anyway.


they did not lie - it was a miscommunication between the two of you. There is opting out - but taht is various levels of privacy.
If you could opt out of ads do you think this would be the first time mentioned?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> they did not lie - it was a miscommunication between the two of you. There is opting out - but taht is various levels of privacy.
> If you could opt out of ads do you think this would be the first time mentioned?


Indeed. In fact if you could opt out of ads this thread would have been only a couple of postings long - the original complaint and a post or two advising the original poster that he could opt out and telling him how.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

If I was involved in any strategic way in TiVo, I would be watching reactions in these forums. Especially if I just instituted new, invasive ads like that on CNET TiVocast.
Public complaints can be useful in ways that have nothing to do with "venting", and more to do with bad publicity for a move that might be "touchy" with your customers.

bicker, you can try to argue that complaints here are pointless, but I don't agree.
Oh, and for the record - I did not come to complain about the menu item ads (which I described as innocuous), I only complained when they threw a large ad over the center of the screen while trying to ff scan through a TiVocast show.

Would I rather not see the menu item ads strewn about? Of course. However, if they help TiVo stay afloat, they are well worth it. Ads that impact basic functions of the TiVo are much different in my view. A big block in the middle of my screen when I am trying to ff scan through content severely impacts the way I use my TiVo. I understand that it may be perfectly fine with the way you use yours.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

If this can be done, why don't you people go and do it. I saw no indication that this avenue was taken. It is many pages though.

If this is possible then all is well. For the people who don't care and the people who do.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

All I did is find a solution to the problem. If you have problems with this solution, don't shoot the messenger, shoot the one who gave the message.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Scott D said:


> All I did is find a solution to the problem. If you have problems with this solution, don't shoot the messenger, shoot the one who gave the message.


no one is shooting you. We are just clarifying that your the information you posted is most likely wrong. Did you do more than just have the CSR tell you this. Did you opt out of ads? Did they give you an estimated time that ads would not appear on your TiVo?

If you have more than just the CSR mentioning it in passing while closing out the call then we will be delighted to hear it. If not, then why persist in defending something that is most likely wrong information.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Scott D said:


> Go give them a call and come back and tell us what they said. They had no reason to lie to me since I didn't have their service anyway.


While I agree with Zeo that there was likely a miscommunication, you gave what could be a reason that they might indeed lie - you don't yet have their service and most prospective customers would likely perceive ads as a negative.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

morac said:


> Another main problem with trying to contact TiVo directly is that there is really only one way to contact TiVo and that is over the phone.


That is not the case. As you mentioned, TiVo has its own help forums.



morac said:


> The phone contact is for service questions and billing issues, not for complaints.


That is not the case. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure TiVoStephen made this clear in a message he posted here, some time back.



morac said:


> In any case, most people just want to register their complaints to TiVo and not actually cancel.


If the problem isn't worth canceling service over, it won't hold much weight with a for-profit corporation, even if it _was _profitable.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

morac said:


> ... In any case, most people just want to register their complaints to TiVo and not actually cancel. ...


:up:


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

bicker said:


> If the problem isn't worth canceling service over, it won't hold much weight with a for-profit corporation, even if it _was _profitable.


It is not unheard of for a company to adjust policy based on complaints.
Most companies, profitable or not, do not like receiving complaints.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bicker said:


> That is not the case. As you mentioned, TiVo has its own help forums.


TiVo's help forums are for peer to peer support. TiVo employees may read it like they do the forums here, but all the people who "officially" respond are not TiVo employees.



bicker said:


> If the problem isn't worth canceling service over, it won't hold much weight with a for-profit corporation, even if it _was _profitable.


Like I said there is a price penalty for canceling and lifetime service can't be canceled since you are no longer paying for it (and technically after 4 years TiVo doesn't count lifetime subscribers as customers any way).

It is beneficial for a company to hold weight to customer complaints and most do since it makes sense to keep paying customers happy. For example if I have a problem with my cable service, I don't immediately cancel, I call my cable company to complain about the problem. They then send someone out to fix the problem (even if it costs them money). If company's worked the way you described then when I called in to report the problem, they'd ignore me until after I finally called in to cancel and only then would they come out to fix the problem which is a back-assward way of doing things.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

> which is a back-assward way of doing things.


looks like some TiVo customers / fans like that back-assward way of being on the receiving end of that TiVo stick.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

bicker said:


> That is not the case. As you mentioned, TiVo has its own help forums.
> 
> That is not the case. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure TiVoStephen made this clear in a message he posted here, some time back.
> 
> If the problem isn't worth canceling service over, it won't hold much weight with a for-profit corporation, even if it _was _profitable.


You're wrong about this. Many people (myself included) have had rebate issues resolved by TiVo personnel here in about one billionth of the time it would have taken to do so via the rebate clearing house. TiVo's attention to problems isn't a given on this forum, but to date it's been a far more effective place to get real, meaningful help than calling TiVo's CSR's.

Other examples off the top of my head:
The Ch. 27 problem, which wasn't solved, but at least identified and acknowledged by TiVo here on this forum.
One of the v. 7 or 8.x software updates causing audio dropouts.
The first time TiVo tried an overlay ad (IIRC) was during the show 24. It was implemented incorrectly and displayed during the entire show if FF was engaged. Problem identified and corrected for future releases of the ad overlay - TiVo CS had no idea about this problem and would have no means to fix it, though perhaps they could've reported it.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few examples, and I'm sure there are a ton from before I owned a TiVo or participated on this forum.

TiVo's participation here isn't as visible as it used to be, but it's still here, and this is still the best place to come to if you're having a problem with your TiVo.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jhimmel said:


> It is not unheard of for a company to adjust policy based on complaints. Most companies, profitable or not, do not like receiving complaints.


It's an inevitability though. And most larger companies learn quickly that getting rid of the last x% of the complaints costs far more than getting rid of them is worth in terms of long-term shareholder value, and therefore not a responsible expenditure of company funds.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

morac said:


> Like I said there is a price penalty for canceling and lifetime service can't be canceled since you are no longer paying for it


In the long-run, neither matter. Read what I wrote again: If the problem isn't worth canceling service over, it won't hold much weight with a for-profit corporation, even if it was profitable. It has nothing to do with an individual deciding to cancel or not. It has to do with whether the problem is something that a significant number of people would cancel the service over.



morac said:


> It is beneficial for a company to hold weight to customer complaints and most do since it makes sense to keep paying customers happy.


Sometimes. The problem is that some customers tend to abuse the process, stuffing the ballot box, trying to exercise the old tenet "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". It's been abused too much now, and everyone knows. So companies now protect themselves from such abuse, relying primarily on information they can actually rely on to be honest predictors of customer purchasing behaviors.



morac said:


> For example if I have a problem with my cable service, I don't immediately cancel, I call my cable company to complain about the problem.


There you go. Here's TiVo's telephone number: 877-367-8486.


----------



## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Crrink said:


> I'm sure I'm forgetting a few examples, and I'm sure there are a ton from before I owned a TiVo or participated on this forum.
> 
> TiVo's participation here isn't as visible as it used to be, but it's still here, and this is still the best place to come to if you're having a problem with your TiVo.


Being a somewhat old timer here, I've got a couple to add where Tivo personal were very vocal:
Problem with what is considered Lifetime.
Modem problems with some of Series One.
Version 2.0 timeframe when they decided to take away the manual recording capablilities of the S1.
Not offically supported addition of the drivers for the S1 ethernet networking (tivonet, turbonet, etc.).
Asking for beta testers.
800 number being dropped.
They even recently received support for the daylights savings time problem they had with S1's. One of own members gave them the fix or work around, however you want to look at it...

The bottom line is that Tivo employees do monitor these boards and the complaints are directed towards them. The more you roll over and defend Tivo Inc. the easier it is for Tivo Inc. to continue with the ads.

And for the record as far as the cnet issue, while I don't like any ads to begin with, what Tivo did was something really dumb in this case. They left the size and duration of the popup ad in the hands of the distributer. Tivo allowed the picture to be stored on the box and the distributer of the content included the information necessary to make the ad appear and what size it would be. I think the way they fixed the problem the last time was to baiscally make the picture one pixel in size so that you couldn't even tell the picture was there. The popup information was still in the stream but the picture it called was no longer the picture everyone saw.

Y-ASK


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Crrink said:


> You're wrong about this.


If I was wrong about it, I wouldn't have posted it. Perhaps what you meant is that you disagree.

You're welcome to disagree, but then don't complain when you don't get timely and attentive service from posting your problems here.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

bicker said:


> It's an inevitability though. And most larger companies learn quickly that getting rid of the last x% of the complaints costs far more than getting rid of them is worth in terms of long-term shareholder value, and therefore not a responsible expenditure of company funds.


Of course. However, neither you or I have any idea whether or not this particular problem falls into that category.

You have no idea whether or not you will change anyones behavior here - yet you give it a try.

"And hopefully some will change. That's all I can wish for."

Likewise, people are hoping that TiVo responds to their concerns. If no one says anything, TiVo has no idea how their customers feel.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you -seem- to be trying to say that complaining is pointless. I'm just saying that may not be true. We don't know until we try. I have been a huge TiVo fan. I would love for them to survive, but not by ruining features that made me love the product in the first place (I'm talking about the FF ads here, not the menu ads which I could live with).

Now, I have no where near your investment of time in these forums (with over 4600 posts), but the fact that I believe this is the first time I have ever complained about something TiVo did, in 340 posts here, should give you an idea of what this situation means to me.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

jhimmel said:


> ... Likewise, people are hoping that TiVo responds to their concerns. If no one says anything, TiVo has no idea how their customers feel. ...


:up:



jhimmel said:


> ... Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you -seem- to be trying to say that complaining is pointless. I'm just saying that may not be true. ...


Customer feedback - both positive and negative - is valuable information for any company that expects to survive the long haul. Please don't let anyone convince you of anything else.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jhimmel said:


> Of course. However, neither you or I have any idea whether or not this particular problem falls into that category.


Well, I wasn't talking about this specific problem: I was talking about the use of unsolicited, non-normalized feedback from customers in general. My point was that *not even* TiVo could know, based on the complaints in this thread or any other, whether or not this issue is truly significant. They must rely on *other *means for determining that, reliably.



jhimmel said:


> You have no idea whether or not you will change anyones behavior here - yet you give it a try.


True, but in TiVo's case, that doesn't help make any determination because they have two viable choices, whereas I only have one choice (keeping in mind, again, that the venting doesn't "bother" me, so avoiding it is a non-sequitur, a concept which a lot of folks, not necessarily you, seem to be unable to understand).



jhimmel said:


> Likewise, people are hoping that TiVo responds to their concerns. If no one says anything, TiVo has no idea how their customers feel.


Absolutely, but just as I'm going to the provocateur in my scenario, i.e., the people who vent online, expressing my perspective directly to them, those folks should go to the provocateur in _their _scenario, TiVo, i.e., complain directly to TiVo.

I thought we already went over this? Was that in another thread? Or did you miss some messages in this thread? 



jhimmel said:


> Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you -seem- to be trying to say that complaining is pointless.


No. I'm saying that venting is counter-productive. Complaining is a vague term. You can complain directly to the entity that wronged you, to get satisfaction one way or another (that's a good thing),* or* you can complain to get that thrill from the attention you get or from the feeling that you're causing damage (both are bad things).

No one is perfect. I've done the same thing, myself, despite it being, as you put it, "pointless". That doesn't mean that we should stop pointing out that it is "pointless" whenever it happens, to try to get it to happen less often.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Customer feedback - both positive and negative - is valuable information for any company that expects to survive the long haul.


Absolutely: Validated, solicited, normalized customer feedback is very important.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bicker said:


> Absolutely: Validated, solicited, normalized customer feedback is very important.


I disagree with the word "solicited."

I'm certain that Apple didn't go to iPhone early adopters and ask what they thought about the $200 price drop two months after the product was released.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

classicX said:


> I'm certain that Apple didn't go to iPhone early adopters and ask what they thought about the $200 price drop two months after the product was released.


Yeah, they probably got that bit of intelligence from just watching the sales reports.

Non-solicited feedback is suspect because of the reasons I've mentioned previously. The only use for unsolicited feedback is through a normalized comparison to previous statistics for unsolicited feedback. Even then, as a second-order statistic, it is less valuable information.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bicker said:


> Yeah, they probably got that bit of intelligence from just watching the sales reports.


I doubt sales numbers would indicate a dissatisfaction of consumers who'd already purchased the product at the higher price - if anything, they say a spike in sales when the price dropped. Which would've been expected.

Please clarify - I understand your assertion that "venting" in this forum is, at the very least, an exercise in futility, but are you also saying that calling TiVo about a complaint, without TiVo asking for your opinion, is somehow a less valid complaint than if TiVo had requested your opinion?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

classicX said:


> I doubt sales numbers would indicate a dissatisfaction of consumers who'd already purchased the product at the higher price


Oh! You're talking about that. That was even easier. Any idiot could read the papers and see all the bad press they were getting. That idea probably came straight from the Marketing manager.



classicX said:


> Please clarify - I understand your assertion that "venting" in this forum is, at the very least, an exercise in futility, but are you also saying that calling TiVo about a complaint, without TiVo asking for your opinion, is somehow a less valid complaint than if TiVo had requested your opinion?


No, not at all. First, the point was that "venting" is counter-productive: It simply gets you angrier, doesn't resolve your problem, and also gets other people angrier, and in general fosters entitlement mentality, which is the root of many ills in our society. So that is the basic principle there. Beyond that, calling TiVo about a complaint is the opposite of venting. Instead, you're going directly to the provocateur of your dissatisfaction, seeking an amicable resolution. Even if you don't get it, it's still _not_ counter-productive (at least as far as we know).


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Has anyone else called TiVo to verify the claim that you can opt out of these ads?


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

bicker said:


> You're welcome to disagree, but then don't complain when you don't get timely and attentive service from posting your problems here.


Gee, with that sort of attitude I'd have to say most folks would prefer you took a LOT longer to reply, perhaps best if not at all.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

No one is well-served by being led to disappointment by the unfounded expectations fostered by detachment from the reality. Don't get me wrong: I wish things were different. They're not. TiVo does a far better than average job, as compared to the average consumer-facing enterprise, but that doesn't mean anyone should expect anything.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

wkearney99 said:


> Gee, with that sort of attitude I'd have to say most folks would prefer you took a LOT longer to reply, perhaps best if not at all.


(Aptly self-titled) bicker is a very skilled 'Hard, Cold, (and) True' One-Trick Pony. He often repeatedly (and correctly) restates the obvious!


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

wkearney99 said:


> Gee, with that sort of attitude I'd have to say most folks would prefer you took a LOT longer to reply, perhaps best if not at all.


Naah. Most groups have self-professed experts in all things. They're harmless and actually often quite amusing.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

RoyK said:


> Naah. Most groups have self-professed experts in all things. They're harmless and actually often quite amusing.


Especially when the actual experts sit by quietly laughing to themselves.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

bicker said:


> If I was wrong about it, I wouldn't have posted it. Perhaps what you meant is that you disagree.


Sorry, didn't realize you like to split hairs so finely. I guess I should have said:
"You appear to not realize that you're wrong about this."

Now go ahead and re-read my post, which explains why your assumptions haven't been valid in the past. Then, if you like, explain why you think your assumptions are valid now.

Perhaps then we can disagree.



bicker said:


> You're welcome to disagree, but then don't complain when you don't get timely and attentive service from posting your problems here.


I did not claim that posting here guarantees timely and attentive service. I said that posting here has always been one's best shot at achieving either satisfaction or enlightenment on a particular issue.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

This thread is well-served by being led to disappointment by the unfounded expectations fostered by detachment from the reality.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

classicX said:


> Especially when the actual experts sit by quietly laughing to themselves.


Wow. That's simply another self-centered comment.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Crrink said:


> Sorry, didn't realize you like to split hairs so finely.


It isn't splitting hairs. It is accuracy.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> This thread is well-served by being led to disappointment by the unfounded expectations fostered by detachment from the reality.


What's really going on is that some folks simply refuse to abide with the idea that reasonable people can disagree, so instead of just presenting their defense of their perspective, as I have presented mine, they seek to defile the thread. It's like going to a restaurant, and then if you don't like the food, defecating on the carpet. Disgusting.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

bicker said:


> It isn't splitting hairs. It is accuracy.


And still nothing to rebut my argument that your notion is incorrect.
Wish I could say that was surprising.


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## VanGoghLikesTivo (Jan 18, 2005)

If TiVo offered an option to opt-out of advertisements through their website, I would be happy.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

VanGoghLikesTivo said:


> If TiVo offered an option to opt-out of advertisements through their website, I would be happy.


sorry, you have to call to cancel


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bicker said:


> It's like going to a restaurant, and then if you don't like the food, defecating on the carpet. Disgusting.


My cat does that (in the litterbox) when he does like the food!


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

wkearney99 said:


> You're really an ass.


But being an ass is a God given Amurican rite!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

fallingwater said:


> But being an ass is a God given Amurican rite!


are we defining this thred again? I am getting confused


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Bicker, I just wanted to say that I understand what you're saying, although there are some here that obviously do not.

I was going to jump in and try and help you explain your points, but didn't feel up to the back-n-forth rhetoric that would then no doubt ensue. I applaud you for your effort though in trying to get your point across in a civil manner (unlike the guy who just called you an ass    ), and wanted you to know that at least one person here does get what you're trying to say.

As a matter of fact, this last 20/20 episode reported on many of the points you brought up here... venting was once considered to be healthy... that is no longer the case, as medical studies now show that venting is just as unhealthy as holding it in... it's only healthy when done in a productive manner, and like you said, directly to what you're venting about, as venting, for the sake of venting, is both unhealthy and unproductive, for both the venter, and those around him/her, especially when they're venting about things they cannot change, and/or are unlikely to change, and/or when they're venting/complaining about every little thing. We can't have everything our way.

I also understand the points some are bringing up that they do feel expressing their opinions here does get the ear of TiVo. They do, on occasion, though TiVo has made it clear they don't run this board, and therefore are not reading every post, much less responding to them all, so one cannot _expect_ TiVo to hear our complaints through this forum, which is what I think you were saying... don't _expect_ it, and if one wants to be sure that TiVo hears them, the best place is directly to TiVo, especially if they don't want people to rebut their complaints. If they're going to complain publicly, then they can expect that there will be those that disagree, and will also rebut publicly... and the more outrageously the complaint is stated, the more outrageous the rebut to it will be.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I'll agree venting for the purpose of venting is not very useful (especially when it's filled with personal attacks and/or profanity :down: ), but on the flip side sometimes a well-mannered unsolicited public complaint is effective in rectifying the situation as seen here.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

It's interesting and perhaps significant that TiVoStephen replied this afternoon to the CNET thread very specifically regarding a TiVoCast FF ad, but not to this much longer and older thread about ads in general.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5925052#post5925052


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

fallingwater said:


> It's interesting and perhaps significant that TiVoStephen replied this afternoon to the CNET thread very specifically regarding a TiVoCast FF ad, but not to this much longer and older thread about ads in general.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5925052#post5925052


Its also significant that CNET withdrew the ad after receiving a raft of complaints from TiVo users. So it would appear that complaints both here and to the advertisors do reach attentive ears.

Kind of punches a hole in the boasts of TiVo's press release here


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

fallingwater said:


> It's interesting and perhaps significant that TiVoStephen replied this afternoon to the CNET thread very specifically regarding a TiVoCast FF ad, but not to this much longer and older thread about ads in general.


But Stephen works specifically with those broadband features and not particularly with general operations. Considering that, it is understandable.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

RoyK said:


> Kind of punches a hole in the boasts of TiVo's press release here


Not entirely... the pop-up was a bad idea (I agree, although I never got a chance to see it; it was gone by the time I downloaded the episode), but everything else is still there, and that press release doesn't mention the pop-up, unless I missed it.

And the Norton advertising is still there, both at the beginning and the end of that TiVoCast, as well as the Thumbs-Up to get more information... the only thing now missing is that pop-up when FF through the actual program, which I agree is understandable that it received the complaints it did, and not much in support, if any.

I believe it wasn't removed because people objected to the advertising... it was removed because it was covering the actual program.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

mchips said:


> Not entirely... the pop-up was a bad idea (I agree, although I never got a chance to see it; it was gone by the time I downloaded the episode), but everything else is still there, and that press release doesn't mention the pop-up, unless I missed it.
> 
> And the Norton advertising is still there, both at the beginning and the end of that TiVoCast, as well as the Thumbs-Up to get more information... the only thing now missing is that pop-up when FF through the actual program, which I agree is understandable that it received the complaints it did, and not much in support, if any.
> 
> I believe it wasn't removed because people objected to the advertising... it was removed because it was covering the actual program.


That's all I was asking for.
Glad they heard us.

Jim H.


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## etz (Sep 8, 2006)

mchips said:


> I believe it wasn't removed because people objected to the advertising... it was removed because it was covering the actual program.


I dunno.... I wrote to Ms. Gannon at CNETTV to thank them for listening and answering. She responded with

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"No, thank you for taking the time to write! We figure one emailand there was more than onerepresents MANY more people.

Molly and I had nothing to do with the ad but our boss didnt hesitate to kill it, and fast.

So keep watching!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sounds to me like the little guy made a difference.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

etz said:


> I dunno.... I wrote to Ms. Gannon at CNETTV to thank them for listening and answering. She responded with
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "No, thank you for taking the time to write! We figure one email-and there was more than one-represents MANY more people.
> ...


But the advertising is still there (beginning, end, and Thumbs Up for more info)... just no more pop-up while FF through the actual program...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

wkearney99 said:


> You're really an ass.


Your comments are rude, and inappropriate as personal attacks are not allowed in this community. My comments may be hard and cold (in addition to bein true) but they are always addressed to the points people make, not at the people themselves. There is no excuse for *your *conduct.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

mchips said:


> Bicker, I just wanted to say that I understand what you're saying, although there are some here that obviously do not. I was going to jump in and try and help you explain your points, but didn't feel up to the back-n-forth rhetoric that would then no doubt ensue.


It really is sad that people, when faced with the prospect of being a large majority, attempt to assert their perspective by intimidating folks from jumping in and trying to make the opposing points in the manner you've alluded to.



mchips said:


> I applaud you for your effort though in trying to get your point across in a civil manner (unlike the guy who just called you an ass    ), and wanted you to know that at least one person here does get what you're trying to say.


I suspect more folks understand, but choose to ignore the reality because they don't LIKE it.



mchips said:


> As a matter of fact, this last 20/20 episode reported on many of the points you brought up here... venting was once considered to be healthy... that is no longer the case, as medical studies now show that venting is just as unhealthy as holding it in... it's only healthy when done in a productive manner, and like you said, directly to what you're venting about, as venting, for the sake of venting, is both unhealthy and unproductive, for both the venter, and those around him/her, especially when they're venting about things they cannot change, and/or are unlikely to change, and/or when they're venting/complaining about every little thing. We can't have everything our way.


I didn't realize that this made it to the popular press. Thanks for the reference.



mchips said:


> I also understand the points some are bringing up that they do feel expressing their opinions here does get the ear of TiVo.


And I haven't really said that that never happens. I have an example, myself, of where a specific TiVo employee contacted me as a result of an inquiry I posted related to what I believe was TiVo's failure to comply with a federal law regarding Closed Captioning. These individual problems which are obvious omissions from the standard process, are indeed sometimes handled in this off-the-books manner. However, as I've been pointing out, that's not something that people should expect. Expectations is what I have made clear is the problem. I've made that clear. I often bold the word, or italicize it as you have in your message. In my case, I asked for insight, and instead was invited to use a back-door channel to address my problem instead of what I was planning on doing next, reporting the problem to TiVo by telephone.

Incidentally, what is really mind-blowing is that, more often than I can readily believe, I've seen is members of this community grievously attacking TiVo employees that seek to help out here. Strange behavior.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> Your comments are rude, and inappropriate as personal attacks are not allowed in this community. My comments may be hard and cold (in addition to bein true) but they are always addressed to the points people make, not at the people themselves. There is no excuse for *your *conduct.


One thing we agree on, bicker. There was no excuse for that person's comment.


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## etz (Sep 8, 2006)

mchips said:


> But the advertising is still there (beginning, end, and Thumbs Up for more info)... just no more pop-up while FF through the actual program...


Yup. But when I wrote to them I did not give any negative feedback about the thumbs and beginning/end ads. My comments to CNETTV, and quite possibly the comments of the others that contacted CNETTV, were focused on the FF/RW screen blocking ad. As a matter of fact, I specifically pointed out that I had no problem with the thumb thing. I never didn't mention the beginning/end ads because I don't reall mind them, although I admit I don't like them. The FF/RW ad was the thing that I REALLY objected to.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

fallingwater said:


> It's interesting and perhaps significant that TiVoStephen replied this afternoon to the CNET thread very specifically regarding a TiVoCast FF ad, but not to this much longer and older thread about ads in general.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5925052#post5925052


I wouldn't read anything at all into that either way. As ah30k said, my focus is 100% TiVoCast, so I am only able to address issues involving advertising on TiVoCast content.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

TiVoStephen said:


> I wouldn't read anything at all into that either way. My focus is 100% TiVoCast, so I am only able to address issues involving advertising on TiVoCast content.


/Puts away foil headwear

drat!


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

etz said:


> Yup. But when I wrote to them I did not give any negative feedback about the thumbs and beginning/end ads. My comments to CNETTV, and quite possibly the comments of the others that contacted CNETTV, were focused on the FF/RW screen blocking ad. As a matter of fact, I specifically pointed out that I had no problem with the thumb thing. I never didn't mention the beginning/end ads because I don't reall mind them, although I admit I don't like them. The FF/RW ad was the thing that I REALLY objected to.


Exactly, and that's all I was saying, that it wasn't removed because it was advertising, it was removed because people objected to the pop-up... if people now decided to go on a campaign against the advertising itself, that's another issue, and I don't know what would happen, because TiVoCast/PodCasting is a different and relatively new beast (I personally don't object to it at all, with how it is now, and feel they have a right to seek additional revenue for their work)... I can say, however, that if people started a campaign to remove all advertising from broadcast television, that's highly unlikely to happen, as we're more likely to lose those broadcast programs instead, without another revenue source to pay for them...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

mchips said:


> I can say, however, that if people started a campaign to remove all advertising from broadcast television, that's highly unlikely to happen, as we're more likely to lose those broadcast programs instead, without another revenue source to pay for them...


It is worse than that: The value of commercials to advertisers is decreasing. There is therefore an imperative to apply various measures to _make up for_ this inevitable decline.

What are the possibilities? (1) More minutes of commercials per hour. (2) Reducing the cost of the programs themselves by cutting corners, lowering production values, etc. (3) Making commercials more valuable again by making them more invasive, as in the case of these pop-up ads that TiVo has innovated.

TiVo, itself, pretty-much devalues #1 as a viable approach. People are just going to skip commercials more if you add more commercials per hour. #2 helps the networks, but really doesn't help the advertisers. That leaves #3.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

ah30k said:


> But Stephen works specifically with those broadband features and not particularly with general operations. Considering that, it is understandable.


*____________________________________________________________
[EDIT]


TiVoStephen said:



I wouldn't read anything at all into that either way. As ah30k said, my focus is 100% TiVoCast, so I am only able to address issues involving advertising on TiVoCast content.

Click to expand...

____________________________________________________________*

That's true! As he states Stephen has the authority to authorize revisions in specific operational behaviors that posters on the CNET thread criticize. In this case TiVo must have received enough criticism from a variety of sources to pull that particular popup ad completely.

TiVo's BOD ultimately has the responsibility to set the company's overall policies regarding advertising and presentation techniques TiVo utilizes.

I undoubtedly misconstrued the potential significance of where Stephen posted and thank him for his post and actions resulting in the removal of the offensive TiVoCast popup.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Its also significant that CNET withdrew the ad after receiving a raft of complaints from TiVo users. So it would appear that complaints both here and to the advertisors do reach attentive ears.


I would say the complaints to CNETTV are what had the ad pulled. Look ijn that thread and see the specific email reply from CNETTV. The complaints here are probably ancillary at best. CNET and TiVo gave a try to extend the pop up over actual content and as such would be looking at the reaction carefully.

There really is a line that TiVo and the content providers can not cross. they can not force us to watch an ad by disabling remote commands nor can they place something over the actual content - even when FFing. Action like this will result in a large loss of subscribers and defeat the revenue possibility of the ad in the first place. Stay tuned to see what they try next though as they define the line beyond which susbcribers drop off


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

bicker said:


> Your comments are rude, and inappropriate as personal attacks are not allowed in this community. My comments may be hard and cold (in addition to bein true) but they are always addressed to the points people make, not at the people themselves. There is no excuse for *your *conduct.


I agree. Personal attacks are not welcome here.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I would say the complaints to CNETTV are what had the ad pulled.


That seems very clear. There has been a lot of complaining about the links to ads as they became boxed on the main menu, and as they started appearing in groups in the Now Playing List, as well as loads of complaints bashing the various pricing changes, and so on and so on, most of which registered any changes as a result of the complaints here. I would go so far as to bet there were hard numbers of subscribers who unsubscribed from the podcast, and that *that* drove CNETTV to take this action.



ZeoTiVo said:


> There really is a line that TiVo and the content providers can not cross.


That's not true. It is only a matter of whether they can cross it today or not. Tomorrow is another day, and as the environment changes and as we the viewers change, what they can and cannot do will change. There are no sacred cows.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> . I would go so far as to bet there were hard numbers of subscribers who unsubscribed from the podcast, and that *that* drove CNETTV to take this action.
> 
> That's not true. It is only a matter of whether they can cross it today or not. Tomorrow is another day, and as the environment changes and as we the viewers change, what they can and cannot do will change. There are no sacred cows.


well sure - no sacred cows and over time things change but also saty the same - used to be no one would pay for TV reception and 3 free networks seemd fine. But now you have an OTA option still and 5 or more free network options. 

and the line that can not be crossed is the one you noted as well - a hard number of subscribers dropping the CNET TiVocast - which is just like the hard line I have posted about in regards to ads on TiVo menus and so forth.

So while there is wiggle room and Tivo has taken one step across my personal lline of having to use my remote differently there is that hard line which is hard number of customers cancelling or leaving TiVo. So there may be some slope but it soon leads to a cliff.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bicker said:


> Wow. Another self-centered comment. Big surprise.


How was my comment self-centered?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bicker said:


> Wow. Another self-centered comment. Big surprise.





bicker said:


> Your comments are rude, and inappropriate as personal attacks are not allowed in this community. My comments may be hard and cold (in addition to bein true) but they are always addressed to the points people make, not at the people themselves. There is no excuse for *your *conduct.


So being rude is reserved for those with greater than 4K posts?

Did I miss something?


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

classicX said:


> So being rude is reserved for those with greater than 4K posts?
> 
> Did I miss something?


Yes, you apparently did miss something...

Go back and reread Bicker's post:



bicker said:


> Your comments are rude, and inappropriate as personal attacks are not allowed in this community. My comments may be hard and cold (in addition to bein true) but they are always addressed to the points people make, not at the people themselves. There is no excuse for *your *conduct.


Note he is not talking to you, but to someone who called him an "ass", to which most of us (on both sides of this advertising issue) agreed was uncalled for... the original post by that individual has since been removed.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

mchips said:


> Yes, you apparently did miss something...
> 
> Go back and reread Bicker's post:
> 
> Note he is not talking to you, but to someone who called him an "ass", to which most of us (on both sides of this advertising issue) agreed was uncalled for... the original post by that individual has since been removed.


Please look at the full context of my post.

I was referring to his comment that my comment was self-centered (I don't see how) and his feigned, facetious shock that he believed it to be so, which I believe to be rude and a personal attack, and contrasting it with his post that personal attacked are not allowed on this board.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

classicX said:


> How was my comment self-centered?


It may have appeared to him that you were calling yourself the real expert that was laughing...

I can see it both ways, that you didn't mean it that way, as well as how it may have inadvertently been taken that way, considering the context of many of the comments that preceded it...

Hopefully, you didn't mean it that way, and you easily could be someone the real experts, whomever they may be, are also laughing at, that they're sitting by quietly laughing at us all.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

classicX said:


> Please look at the full context of my post.
> 
> I was referring to his comment that my comment was self-centered (I don't see how) and his feigned, facetious shock that he believed it to be so, which I believe to be rude and a personal attack, and contrasting it with his post that personal attacked are not allowed on this board.


Read my last reply, as mine and your replies are currently landing atop one another (just so I don't have to repeat it here  ), and also note, as stated in his reply to that individual who called him an ass, he was stating your comment was (or appeared) self-centered, not necessarily you as an individual... there's a difference...

For example, there's a difference between saying someone is a bad person, and saying they did a bad thing...


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

mchips said:


> It may have appeared to him that you were calling yourself the real expert that was laughing...
> 
> I can see it both ways, that you didn't mean it that way, as well as how it may have inadvertently been taken that way, considering the context of many of the comments that preceded it...
> 
> Hopefully, you didn't mean it that way, and you easily could be someone the real experts, whomever they may be, are also laughing at, that they're sitting by quietly laughing at us all.


You are correct - I was not referring to myself in that post. I was making light of the thought that the experts lurk on the forums and laugh at those of us to get it wrong and either do not care to comment or are prevented from doing so (such as a TiVo employee).


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

mchips said:


> Read my last reply, as mine and your replies are currently landing atop one another (just so I don't have to repeat it here  ), and also note, as stated in his reply to that individual who called him an ass, he was stating your comment was (or appeared) self-centered, not necessarily you as an individual... there's a difference...
> 
> For example, there's a difference between saying someone is a bad person, and saying they did a bad thing...


I only took offense to the secondary comment - "Big surprise."

To take your example, imagine saying it like this: "You did a bad thing. Big surprise."

To me, that was a backhanded personal attack.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

classicX said:


> Please look at the full context of my post.


Again, there is a difference between addressing a PERSON and address a COMMENT.

Another difference is recognition and contrition. The "big surprise" part of my message was sarcastic, and therefore inappropriate on those grounds. I apologize.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bicker said:


> I apologize.


Apology accepted. No hard feelings.


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## tvofan (Jul 28, 2007)

I just called TiVo Customer Service and asked about removing the ads. They said unfortunately you cannot opt out. So, I filed a "feature request" to disable the ads.

If the ads bother you, please call TiVo Customer Service to complain and file a feature request to remove them at 877-367-8486.


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

Last night for the first time, I got the ads in the Now Playing List folders, and I don't like them. I don't mind them in Tivo Central, and sometimes I watch them (especially the movie promos --I enjoyed the recent promo clips for "Atonement," for example). But I really object to an ad in the Now Playing list, because it looks like part of the recordings list, and it clutters up the interface.

I recently got a Tivo for my 82-year-old mom, because she got too confused trying to figure out her VCR. I got her the Tivo because the interface was simple, uncluttered and easy to navigate. That influenced my buying decision. 

I disapprove of Tivo's decision to ads to the now-playing list like this.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

For those new to the thread, here's an example (repost) of what people are talking about:


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## Darren (May 7, 2002)

I had tivo for 3-4 years, both series one and two, then switched to comcast and their HD dvr and used that for the last 1 1/2 years. 

I made a bet with myself that if the NY Giants upset the Patriots, I'd splurge on a Tivo HD box(for obvious reasons - the comcast DVR sucks). When the Giants won I was excited, but remembered Tivo was starting with annoying ads at the time I left, and thought I'd check the boards to see if they got worse. 

Sorry to say, from what I have read, I won't be buying the new Tivo. I won't pony up $300+monthy fees again for the service knowing they are pressing forward with ad placements on the UI. I actually prefer to stay with the crappy comcast DVR (no upfront cost, lower monthly fee, no ads).


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Yeah right, like we really believe you...


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

Btw, I loved the e-Trade commercials during the Super Bowl this evening with the talking baby... hilarious


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## Darren (May 7, 2002)

I stayed up last last night setting up bittorrent(azureus), torrent episode downloader, and was able to stream downloaded TV content to my PS3 for playback. It is not as elegant solution as a tivo, but it is free and the commercials are edited out(no having to fast forward), 

I'm still wrestling with the ethics of it - but then again Hollywood considers fast forward through commercials and/or 30 sec skip stealing as well. I set the max download rate to 20kps to be friendly to my neighbors, and it appears more than enough to download the shows I watch.

My point is I think tech savy early adopters were a vital part of Tivo's early success, and Tivo's trying to appease Hollywood with the advertising features will alienate many of them to consider alternatives. Perhaps I'm in a 1% catagory that takes offense to adds on a service I pay for, but I doubt I am alone.

Tivo's rollout of its ad strategy reminds me of the analogy of how to boil a frog. If you drop it in boiling water, it will jump back out. But if you put it in cool water and slowly raise the temp to boiling, it will stay in. 

In this new digital age, hollywood needs to reinvent its business model, not cling to the current one. Tivo's ad strategy seems old school to me. iTunes makes more sense...charge a reasonable price ($0.25-0.50) for a show without ads, and make it convienent to watch(ie Tivo), and people will pay (the savings on dropping the $50/month cable bill would cover the cost of paying for the shows).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Darren said:


> I'm still wrestling with the ethics of it - but then again Hollywood considers fast forward through commercials and/or 30 sec skip stealing as well.


There is a distinction between what (you believe) Hollywood considers stealing and what our society (actually) says is stealing. Only the latter matters.



Darren said:


> In this new digital age, hollywood needs to reinvent its business model, not cling to the current one.


Be careful what you wish for; that new business model you are pining for could end up having a bunch more home shopping, reality shows, and lower production values. When the profit motive in deluxe offerings is gone, providers aim to just make it up on volume.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Darren said:


> charge a reasonable price ($0.25-0.50) for a show without ads, and make it convienent to watch(ie Tivo), and people will pay (the savings on dropping the $50/month cable bill would cover the cost of paying for the shows).


do you really think a show like Terminator: Sarah Conner Chronicles or Desperate Housewives could be made as well for 50 cents a view. It would end up like Bicker points out - a bunch of tried and true low cost pablum that has already crept in far enough to the media to make me want a TiVo to weed it back out.

anything new and innovative would have a very hard time getting funded for those kinds of high end production values and instead all the interesting stuff would be low rent internet shows - and we would be saying but the story is good so we deal with original Star Trek special effects or that the set is obviously someone's actual apartment, etc...

PS - getting the shows from a source that does not have the license and is obviously breaking copyright laws is stealing by anyone's standard, be they hollywood or the courts or society in general. Sure your 1% is fine with it. and I promise not to bother alerting the authorities but still.......


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## Darren (May 7, 2002)

bicker said:


> When the profit motive in deluxe offerings is gone, providers aim to just make it up on volume.


I agree that a set price for all shows (like Steve Jobs wants on iTunes) doesn't make sense and that the free market system should set its price. A successful show like Lost might be $2.00 per episode and some reality show $0.10. Who knows, quality might actually improve if hollywood realizes people won't pay much for crap.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Darren said:


> . Who knows, quality might actually improve if hollywood realizes people won't pay much for crap.


the flip side is, will people pay much for quality either? I personally would play more video games versus paying 2$ per episode. While it comes with a lot of junk and the advertisers subsidize it heavily I always look for the pay a monthly fee to pick x amount from y selection versus a pay per type of deal.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the flip side is, will people pay much for quality either? I personally would play more video games versus paying 2$ per episode. While it comes with a lot of junk and the advertisers subsidize it heavily I always look for the pay a monthly fee to pick x amount from y selection versus a pay per type of deal.


I think the video game model of sales is worse than the TV model. $60 for the game and then $1.00 to $8.00 for addons for the game. Apparently this model works though otherwise they'd stop doing it. I've read Rock Band and Guitar Hero make tons of money from people buying additional tracks.

I would not want to see TV downloads work that way.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

morac said:


> I think the video game model of sales is worse than the TV model. $60 for the game and then $1.00 to $8.00 for addons for the game. Apparently this model works though otherwise they'd stop doing it. I've read Rock Band and Guitar Hero make tons of money from people buying additional tracks.
> 
> I would not want to see TV downloads work that way.


I guess I should say play more cheap video games  
I tend toward shooters, sports and puzzlers on the Nintendo Wii and then free stuff on the internet.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

But the point shouldn't be missed: Television is a comparative bargain, due to its historical "freebie" underpinnings. You disrupt the nature of commercial television, and you're looking at the prospect of pricing along the lines of those expensive video games (with the cheap ones ZeoTiVo referred to being, with respect, analogous to the reality shows, like Amazing Race, complete with significant product placement).


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Darren said:


> My point is I think tech savy early adopters were a vital part of Tivo's early success, and Tivo's trying to appease Hollywood with the advertising features will alienate many of them to consider alternatives. Perhaps I'm in a 1% catagory that takes offense to adds on a service I pay for, but I doubt I am alone.


A significant percentage of early adapter TiVo users are tech savvy, true. But making profitable a service that basically repackages TV programs from other sources has proven to be a tough proposition. TiVo needs to grow its sub base from all types of TV viewers, and needs whatever additional revenue sources it can find.

Ads are part of life. Even socialist societies and underdeveloped countries have advertising. TiVo doesn't eliminate ads; it allows for more easily managing them. Undoubtedly there will be subs who drop TiVo because of ads, but IMHO not nearly as many as new subs who won't particularly care.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Since it happens relatively infrequently, I feel compelled to make a point of it when we agree about something...


fallingwater said:


> Undoubtedly there will be subs who drop TiVo because of ads, but IMHO not nearly as many as new subs who won't particularly care.


:up:


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Actually I agree with you much more than not. We just have different styles.

One memorable occasion where we disagreed repeatedly started here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5839281#post5839281

We still disagree on the original point of contention (requesting coupons ASAP), but I was wrong about the other issue we disagreed on (mandated auto shutoff making coupon converters unsuitable for TiVo control) starting here: 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5870470#post5870470

But it was MighTiVo who actually pointed out why I was wrong, with a verifiable reference that made sense and convinced me!
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5877579#post5877579


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> Undoubtedly there will be subs who drop TiVo because of ads, but IMHO not nearly as many as new subs who won't particularly care.


+2 :up:


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

Speaking of advertisements, I saw one for the new Star Trek movie through esurance that was a kind I had never seen before. Grabbed the digital camera and took some shaky cam video of it. Check it out:


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Joe Siegler said:


> Speaking of advertisements, I saw one for the new Star Trek movie through esurance that was a kind I had never seen before. Grabbed the digital camera and took some shaky cam video of it. Check it out:


They had that type of add with Norton on Cnet tivocast quite awhile back. They took a lot of flak and I thought abandonded the "cover the screen with a big add during fast fwd" idea. :down:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=382575&highlight=cnet


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

For those who like these ads, just hope other professions don't join Tivo on this.. I imagine you will mind when your lawn service mows DANS LAWN SERVICE in your yard, or your Car Wash put on washoffable, DANS CAR WASH text on the side of your car. Where does it stop? And your OK with this? You'r mad.

In each case.. they can argue they cut your lawn or washed your car.. and that they need ad revenue to keep prices low and to grow.. But you know what.... F you!

Your doing a service... your paid for a service.. if you need to do something else.. then fine.. but offer refunds for the lawn mowers, etc... we all bought when we thought (and you advertised) that you cut lawns NORMALLY. Had you mentioned the ads.. we would of went with SAMS lawn service instead and been happy with our normal lawns. Now we are stuck with expensive mowers, paying for crappy ads cut into our lawns, and we are supposed to sit back and enjoy it. F you!


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Joe Siegler said:


> Speaking of advertisements, I saw one for the new Star Trek movie through esurance that was a kind I had never seen before. Grabbed the digital camera and took some shaky cam video of it. Check it out:


Nice (sarcasm). At least the ads are not becoming more intrusive


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Joe Siegler said:


> Speaking of advertisements, I saw one for the new Star Trek movie through esurance that was a kind I had never seen before. Grabbed the digital camera and took some shaky cam video of it. Check it out:


Just curious...What specific program (you said Star Trek in syndication) on what channel was this?


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

bkdtv said:


> Just curious...what program was this on?


I said it in the video. Star Trek, syndicated. Was on KFWD-52 in Dallas.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Joe Siegler said:


> I said it in the video. Star Trek, syndicated. Was on KFWD-52 in Dallas.


Can you be more specific? The original Star Trek series?

I would like record the *same program* to see if I can get the same popup.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

bkdtv said:


> Can you be more specific? The original Star Trek series?
> 
> I would like record the *same program* to see if I can get the same popup.


I am being specific. "Star Trek" is the technical name of the show, it's also the only one in syndication, too. Yes, the original.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

As far as I'm aware, any corner thumbs up ad will have a corresponding fast forward "billboard" ad. It's been that way for a while now.

BTW you can clear both of the ads, by pressing clear.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Joe Siegler said:


> I am being specific. "Star Trek" is the technical name of the show, it's also the only one in syndication, too. Yes, the original.


Star Trek: NG is also in syndication and showing on a handful of different networks in my area. Anyway, thanks for the clarification.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

morac said:


> As far as I'm aware, any corner thumbs up ad will have a corresponding fast forward "billboard" ad. It's been that way for a while now.


I've never seen that before. Can't say it hasn't been there, but I think I would have run into it before this weekend.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> For those who like these ads, just hope other professions don't join Tivo on this.. I imagine you will mind when your lawn service mows DANS LAWN SERVICE in your yard, or your Car Wash put on washoffable, DANS CAR WASH text on the side of your car. Where does it stop? And your OK with this? You'r mad.
> 
> In each case.. they can argue they cut your lawn or washed your car.. and that they need ad revenue to keep prices low and to grow.. But you know what.... F you!
> 
> Your doing a service... your paid for a service.. if you need to do something else.. then fine.. but offer refunds for the lawn mowers, etc... we all bought when we thought (and you advertised) that you cut lawns NORMALLY. Had you mentioned the ads.. we would of went with SAMS lawn service instead and been happy with our normal lawns. Now we are stuck with expensive mowers, paying for crappy ads cut into our lawns, and we are supposed to sit back and enjoy it. F you!


That has got to be one of the silliest stretches I've seen...really...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> we all bought when we thought (and you advertised) that you cut lawns NORMALLY. Had you mentioned the ads.. we would of went with SAMS lawn service instead


ads have been in the TOS for a long time and in the TiVo UI for a long time - you should have gone with the cable company DVR back when.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Joe Siegler said:


> I've never seen that before. Can't say it hasn't been there, but I think I would have run into it before this weekend.


How common are the thumbs-up ads, though? I only run into about 1-3 a month. One other thing about your video, it doesn't show what happens when the commercial ends. According to TiVo reps who've responded here before, and TiVo's TOS, the pop-up and the billboard should only appear on-screen over the commercial they were programmed for (e.g. coke can't run a billboard over a pepsi ad, or over an entire block of commercials, or over the program content). The Celebrity Apprentice brouhaha concerned a billboard ad that ran into the actual program content. It may have been unintentional, since the TOS would seem to disallow this. But like I said, I'm curious if the billboard disappeared when the commercial ended, like I would expect it to. If they are deliberately changing that functionality, then they need to change the policy too (and be prepared for a backlash from many of their previous supporters).


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

> That has got to be one of the silliest stretches I've seen...really...


REALLY? I bought my Tivo several years ago.. the pamphlet I was shown showed menus, on screen displays, etc.. and had no mention of ads or depictions. (Hence the initial agreement). After several months, AD hell started to break loose. Seems pretty much the same as those other professions I mentioned.. where's the difference?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> REALLY? I bought my Tivo several years ago.. the pamphlet I was shown showed menus, on screen displays, etc.. and had no mention of ads or depictions. (Hence the initial agreement). After several months, AD hell started to break loose. Seems pretty much the same as those other professions I mentioned.. where's the difference?


Because I've never seen someone's lawn stenciled with the name of the gardener, or a car wash put their name on your car.

Have you?

You can't compare the realities of TiVo with things in your imagination.

The closest real thing this is akin to is newspapers and magazines, you pay for those too, but they are laiden with ads on top of what you paid.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I saw that Star Trek "banner" in the top right corner on some show last week. I thought it was pretty good use of advertising. I wish TiVo does more of it.

I don't use fast forward (I use 30 sec skip), so I didn't see the big banner in the middle of the screen. That is definitely way more annoying, though I wouldn't compare it to the CNET thing TiVo did, because in that one it was on during ANY fast forward, not just ad, but actual programming, which sucks. Putting it on during actual ads is still annoying, but much less so than during all fast forward. Still, I hope they don't start using this very much (the technology has been there for years).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Besides I've seen lots of lawns with advertisements for the gardener posted up on a stake.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

I got a moxi and I love it! In explaining to tivo why I was switching I received an email from a Jessica Loebig from tivo who says she is concerned with tivo customers concerns and wants to here from tivo customers about any problems they might be haveing! Everyone should let her know of their disdain for tivos changes. [email protected]


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

At one time in my life I had a phonograph, an eight track player, a cassette player , a cd player , a beta max player, a VHS player, an Atari, a nintendo, a nintendo 64, a commodore computer, a replay TV, and on and on it goes. 
Some day all of us and yes even you die hard tivo fans on this site will be able to say I used to have a tivo. Tivo is a software pioneer and a seller of guide data and now they want to be a content provider. The only problem is that they want to sell content that is commercials. That is the reason most people went with tivo in the first place to avoid those annoying ads. Tivo should stick with selling software and guide data and leave the content and commercials to the TV studios. I have purchased a moxi HD dvr and I am very satisfied with it at this time I also have a cox SA8300 dvr and a series 3 and a series 2 tivo. (I paid $800.00 for my series 3 and that's the same price for the Moxi.) I talked with tivo about why I was changing and was put in touch with a tivo rep who says she cares about customer feedback so all complaints should go to her Jessica [email protected].


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

you know spamming away with the same message in multiple threads and now 2 posts in a row just dillutes your message something fierce.

Have faith in the forum and know that people would pick up on the one or two posts and likely pass along the info to others in the forum as needed. Instead you chose to look like someone with a biased agenda versus someone wanting to help TiVo users in a Tivo forum.


oh and BTW - posting the exact same post multiple times is against forum rules.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you know spamming away with the same message in multiple threads and now 2 posts in a row just dillutes your message something fierce.
> 
> Have faith in the forum and know that people would pick up on the one or two posts and likely pass along the info to others in the forum as needed. Instead you chose to look like someone with a biased agenda versus someone wanting to help TiVo users in a Tivo forum.
> 
> oh and BTW - posting the exact same post multiple times is against forum rules.


Ugh. He got me. I replied to this joker in another thread before seeing the multiple posts. Lame.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> Ugh. He got me. I replied to this joker in another thread before seeing the multiple posts. Lame.


If you are so pro tivo then why waste your time looking thru a thread about how tivos ads suck? If you love the ads so much turn off the computer and go watch them! If others want a way to get a message to tivo I have provided an email to do just that. Why does that bother any one???????????????????????????


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

dgf123 said:


> If you are so pro tivo then why waste your time looking thru a thread about how tivos ads suck? If you love the ads so much turn off the computer and go watch them! If others want a way to get a message to tivo I have provided an email to do just that. Why does that bother any one???????????????????????????


Because you don't need to post it in every thread you go into.

But I may send her an email saying that the odds don't bother me one bit, thanks for the link.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

and why must someone be "pro tivo" just because the ads don't bug them?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Langree said:


> and why must someone be "pro tivo" just because the ads don't bug them?


:up:

And thanks for quoting!


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> :up:
> 
> And thanks for quoting!


Your missing the point of the original post statement WTF 
advertisements on now playing. It was started by someone pissed off at tivo for their ad placement! so my point is you must be pro tivo if you are defending them in this thread. Let people complain about tivo if they want to!


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

dgf123 said:


> Your missing the point of the original post statement WTF
> advertisements on now playing. It was started by someone pissed off at tivo for their ad placement! so my point is you must be pro tivo if you are defending them in this thread. Let people complain about tivo if they want to!


Are you new to forums? Feel free to complain, but never ever expect everyone to agree with you and never post a differing oppinion on your complaints.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dgf123 said:


> Let people complain about tivo if they want to!


let people complain
let people reply about the complaints if they want to
let someone talk about alternative DVRs if they want to

BUT
do it within forum guidelines.


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## ZaslnyKazachek (May 13, 2009)

This add ons really, but really sucks! GRRR


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