# Well, no Series 3 for me



## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

Our local TW just announced that on Sept. 15th, they're switching the following channels to SDV, so I guess no Series 3 for me. (Yes, people actually DO watch premium channels and want to record them and Yes, I know the Series 3 can do HDTV, but believe it or not, lots of channels are still SD).

115 - Disney West
708 - HBO West
709 - HBO Premium West
710 - HBO Signature West
711 - HBO Family West
712 - HBO Comedy West
713 - HBO Zone West
714 - HBO Latino West
725 - Cinemax West
726 - MoreMax West
727 - ActionMax West
728 - ThrillerMax West
746 - Showtime West
747 - Showtime 2 West
748 - Showtime 3 West
749 - Showtime Extreme West
750 - Showtime Beyond West
754 - Showtime Next West
755 - Showtime Family West
756 - Showtime Women West
763 - The Movie Channel West
764 - The Movie Channel 2 West
776 - Starz West
777 - Starz 5 Cinema West
788 - Encore West


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Damn, that sucks..


CURSE YOU TIME WARNER!!!!


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

makes me happy to be a Comcast customer, now if I could just somehow get that bill to be less then $100


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That sucks! And the sad thing is they could completely avoid moving all those channels to SDV by simply moving 3 analog channels over to the digital teir.  (each analog channel takes up about the same bandwidth required for 8-10 digital channels)

Dan


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> That sucks! And the sad thing is they could completely avoid moving all those channels to SDV by simply moving 3 analog channels over to the digital teir.  (each analog channel takes up about the same bandwidth required for 8-10 digital channels)
> 
> Dan


And screw the S2 DT Tivo user who just want basic cable.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

yunlin12 said:


> And screw the S2 DT Tivo user who just want basic cable.


yup.. Technology must move forward. Someone has to "lose out" sometimes. Usually, it's the people on the older technology. You could jump to a Series 3 to keep up.

I'm on analog cable too. I love not dealing with IR controlling a cable box, having it power off, etc. But I know the future is brighter with digital cable (HD, more channels, etc). I'm just waiting for the final piece to fall into place.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah, but we're talking about a S2DT user losing 3 channels vs someone with a CableCARD losing 15. And from what I hear TW has an above average number of analog channels as it is. (Charter only carries about 60, I've heard that TW carries over 90)

Dan


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah, but we're talking about a S2DT user losing 3 channels vs someone with a CableCARD losing 15. And from what I hear TW has an above average number of analog channels as it is. (Charter only carries about 60, I've heard that TW carries over 90)
> 
> Dan


Got it, that makes sense. 90 is high. Comcast here carries 77 channels. I hope they can work it out.


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## chandler1818 (Sep 8, 2004)

I am a goner from TiVo Soon- which sucks. Switching to HD soon and need DVR that can record. Series 3 i am sure will be nice but it is not ready and i don't think i want to spend hundreds on something i can get for free. besides, b/c tivo set it up only to work with cable card and i am a comcast user, there is no on demand for me. why would tivo make something that you have to give up functionality to use? asinine. bye, tivo, time to go for me.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

NO NEED TO PANIC YET!!!!

I assume that you are on the east coast since all they are shifting to SDV are the west coast versions of the channels. If you have TiVo, you shouldn't care if the west coast versions are not available!


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Annoucements like this could kill the S3 in its tracks. Who wants to spend serious cash on one or more S3's and then find out the next week it can't record many of your favorite channels. Your already locked into cable if you buy an S3, now that isn't safe either.

What happened to all those people that said SDV is only for spanish language and knitting channels ? Oh and SDV won't be rolled out for years was the other comment I heard.


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## johnner1999 (Oct 26, 2002)

I have two questions 

1) what is SDV? (SD=standard Def, HD+HiDef) 

2) so the tivo sr3 will only record digital channels no analog basic channels?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> What happened to all those people that said SDV is only for spanish language and knitting channels ?


Perhaps you didn't get to my 'don't panic' post yet. If it is only the opposite coast channels that go SDV, who cares! Just TiVo the shows you want. It is almost a non-impact to the TiVo community.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

johnner1999 said:


> 1) what is SDV? (SD=standard Def, HD+HiDef)


 Switched Digital Video is a capability of turning off certain channels that are not currently being viewed by any customers within a certain node. It allows MSOs to save bandwidth. The problem is TiVo will not be able to tune them since they need bi-directional comm capability. TiVo is a uni-directional product.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

johnner1999 said:


> I have two questions
> 
> 1) what is SDV? (SD=standard Def, HD+HiDef)
> 
> 2) so the tivo sr3 will only record digital channels no analog basic channels?


1) is already answered

2) It will record analog basic jsut fine, and from AFIK, sans-CableCard.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

ah30k said:


> NO NEED TO PANIC YET!!!!
> 
> I assume that you are on the east coast since all they are shifting to SDV are the west coast versions of the channels. If you have TiVo, you shouldn't care if the west coast versions are not available!


I shouldn't care? Nothing like denial. I can't keep every movie on every movie channel on my Tivo at all times. Maybe I can tolerate the situation, but I'm an avid channel surfer. It's a serious reduction in capability. I frequently stumble across a movie ending on the east coast that isn't rcorded and then watch it starting on a west coast feedback a little later. When channel surfing the west coast movie channels double my options. It's like geting half the channels I paid for. If they can do it with all the west coast movie channels, what's next?


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## tjramsey (Nov 28, 2002)

m_jonis said:


> Our local TW just announced that on Sept. 15th, they're switching the following channels to SDV, so I guess no Series 3 for me.


Which city are you in?

I'm in Austin, and those channel numbers seem familiar. I had gotten out from under TW when I lived closer into town, but now that I'm further north, Grande is no longer available, and the SDV stuff worries me..... this particular switch not too awful much with two tuners, I can get the HBO stuff from the east feed no problem, but it doesn't make me too confident about the future.

I've thought about getting a cablecard for my TV now (pre S3) and complaining often and loudly about any channel I can't get, but so far I haven't had the energy....

I'll probably still get the S3, but I'm sure at some point it will be an annoyance; but probably not as annoying as the cable box turning off in the middle of a recording.

T.J.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Sounds like it's time for someone to file a complaint with the FCC about TimeWarner's end run around the CableCard mandate.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> I shouldn't care? Nothing like denial. I can't keep every movie on every movie channel on my Tivo at all times. Maybe I can tolerate the situation, but I'm an avid channel surfer. It's a serious reduction in capability. I frequently stumble across a movie ending on the east coast that isn't rcorded and then watch it starting on a west coast feedback a little later. When channel surfing the west coast movie channels double my options. It's like geting half the channels I paid for. If they can do it with all the west coast movie channels, what's next?


You should care. That sucks that they are moving so many channels to SDV  Have you called and written to complain?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> Annoucements like this could kill the S3 in its tracks.


Absolutely. TiVo will have to warrant what the S3 *will* be able to do (i.e., with a money-back guarantee if the cable company changes things so TiVo can no longer do what it was purchased for), even though it cannot control cable companies, or they won't get the business of this fervant TiVo fan.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bicker said:


> Absolutely. TiVo will have to warrant what the S3 *will* be able to do (i.e., with a money-back guarantee if the cable company changes things so TiVo can no longer do what it was purchased for), even though it cannot control cable companies, or they won't get the business of this fervant TiVo fan.


That makes no business sense whatsoever. You can't take your car back because your town decides that certain roads are now for SUVs only, and you can no longer access them. ESPECIALLY when you knew for months that the roads were going to be for SUVs only.

If you'll be affected by SDV, and wouldn't get the channels that you want with an S3, just don't buy one. It's as simple as that.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

chandler1818 said:


> I am a goner from TiVo Soon- which sucks. Switching to HD soon and need DVR that can record. Series 3 i am sure will be nice but it is not ready and i don't think i want to spend hundreds on something i can get for free. besides, b/c tivo set it up only to work with cable card and i am a comcast user, there is no on demand for me. why would tivo make something that you have to give up functionality to use? asinine. bye, tivo, time to go for me.


Tivo didn't invent CableCard - they just inherited the limitations. If you need On Demand so much, DON'T BUY ONE.

I don't understand why people are getting so angry at Tivo over a product that 1) isn't even released yet and 2) are not FORCED to buy.

OMG I HATE MOTOROLA BECAUSE COMCAST INTRODUCED 20mbps INTERNET CONNECTIONS BUT MY MOTOROLA MODEM CAN'T TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.

WTF?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

m_jonis said:


> Our local TW just announced that on Sept. 15th, they're switching the following channels to SDV, so I guess no Series 3 for me. (Yes, people actually DO watch premium channels and want to record them and Yes, I know the Series 3 can do HDTV, but believe it or not, lots of channels are still SD).
> 
> 115 - Disney West
> 708 - HBO West
> ...


Easy solution - rent 25 cable boxes (or get 24 of your neighbors to cooperate) and leave them on 24/7, each tuned to one of these channels.

OR-- get netflix, and you can rent the movies that you want to watch.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> I shouldn't care? Nothing like denial. I can't keep every movie on every movie channel on my Tivo at all times. Maybe I can tolerate the situation, but I'm an avid channel surfer. It's a serious reduction in capability. I frequently stumble across a movie ending on the east coast that isn't rcorded and then watch it starting on a west coast feedback a little later. When channel surfing the west coast movie channels double my options. It's like geting half the channels I paid for. If they can do it with all the west coast movie channels, what's next?


Its a simple matter of physics, they cn't fit so many shows in the pipe. One relatively painless way to make more room is to SDV 25, yes that is twenty-five, off-coast channels. I'll bet if you look at any one of those channels, you could find another showing of the current show within four hours. If you are really hard over on channel surfing, I don't know what to say. MSOs simply can't fit that many channels in for your surfing pleasure.

I just get a kick out of how rabid the TiVo fans are in condeming people who watch live TV is and then come over to this thread and say they can't live without 25 off-coast repeats of their primary coast channels.

p.s. I think they are better off SDV'ing the off-coast channels rather than the knitting channel.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

classicX said:


> Easy solution - rent 25 cable boxes (or get 24 of your neighbors to cooperate) and leave them on 24/7, each tuned to one of these channels.


Now, that is the best solution I've heard, yet, though you may have to add or subract STBs as TWC adds and subtracts any of their channels to or from SDV and be prepared to spend several hundred if over a thousand dollars a month on television. However, I really like this idea. You might be able to make your subcription back some by tapping a few of your neighbors into your small cable system for basic (non-STB) cable service for a fee that they pay to you. That would cheapen your bill some.

You sir, think outside of the box. I respect that. 

(Of course the cable company might start suspecting something is up when they realize that all of the SDV channels are always on and want to find out why.)


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

BillyT2002 said:


> You sir, think outside of the box. I respect that.


<Agent Smith>Thank you.</Agent Smith>



BillyT2002 said:


> (Of course the cable company might start suspecting something is up when they realize that all of the SDV channels are always on and want to find out why.)


HAHA, let them come! By the time they get around to refusing me service, they will have 10,000 other customers complaining that their channels are all "buzzy."

This brings to mind another problem. Of course, we would need an inside man - one with knowledge of where all the nodes are and how many people are in each one. We'd need 25 moles^H^H^H^H^Hboxes for each node, of course.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bicker said:


> Absolutely. TiVo will have to warrant what the S3 *will* be able to do (i.e., with a money-back guarantee if the cable company changes things so TiVo can no longer do what it was purchased for), even though it cannot control cable companies, or they won't get the business of this fervant TiVo fan.


Man, what have you been smokin'? Can I have some?


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## DTSDude (May 24, 2006)

SDV just isn't a viable solution in my opionion. It's a technological work around that still has it's limitations. On the other hand I'm kinda glad TW is going to it. One more nail in their coffin.


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## doatdays (Jan 4, 2005)

classicX said:


> Easy solution - rent 25 cable boxes (or get 24 of your neighbors to cooperate) and leave them on 24/7, each tuned to one of these channels.


You wouldn't even need 25 cable boxes, just 13 duel tuner dvrs. each one recording one of the channels 24/7. It would save you about 25% of the cost and you would even have one feed left over to watch all the other channels.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

I'm going to reduce the idea I've been writing about for some months now to a bumper sticker.

FCC: No SDV until CC 3


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

doatdays said:


> You wouldn't even need 25 cable boxes, just 13 duel tuner dvrs. each one recording one of the channels 24/7. It would save you about 25% of the cost and you would even have one feed left over to watch all the other channels.


I don't see any reasonable way to set up a dual-tuner DVR to record two channels 24/7. Getting 25 STBs is WAY more reasonable.


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## 188 (Oct 15, 1999)

there has been a lot written on the possible change to switched digital, but isn't that going to require a substantial hardware rollout by the affected cable systems? If not, if it can be handled by a software change, than how hard can it be for Tivo to adapt the S3 to that technology. 

I saw that one poster said Tivo's cable cards won't be bidirectional--but isn't it possible that they will be in the future? I'm sure Tivo isn't just asleep at the "switch."


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

classicX said:


> I don't see any reasonable way to set up a dual-tuner DVR to record two channels 24/7. Getting 25 STBs is WAY more reasonable.


Since I am sure all your neighbors will also have S3s, you each just need one STB tuned to your "assigned" anti-SDV channel.

When the cable co adds more SDVs to compensate, just build multiple dwelling units to get more neighbors.

There is a solution to every problem, but there is a problem with every solution.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

classicX said:


> That makes no business sense whatsoever. You can't take your car back because your town decides that certain roads are now for SUVs only, and you can no longer access them.


It *does *make sense, if your customers know in advance that there is a good chance that that will happen. With a discretionary, luxury purchase, like a TiVo Series 3, knowing that there is a technology that is being adopted that would render the purchase practically worthless for you, you'd be an idiot to make that purchase without some warranty from the company that their device will not become worthless to you.



> ESPECIALLY when you knew for months that the roads were going to be for SUVs only.


I don't know that. My cable company hasn't made any such announcements.



> If you'll be affected by SDV, and wouldn't get the channels that you want with an S3, just don't buy one. It's as simple as that.


Are you willing to warrant to me that my cable company won't adopt SDV?

The whole point the earlier poster made was this announcement by this one, prominent cable company could be the end of TiVo, if TiVo doesn't address it, head-on.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

classicX said:


> I don't understand why people are getting so angry at Tivo over a product that 1) isn't even released yet and 2) are not FORCED to buy.


I agree. No sense in getting upset. Rather, people should only be concerned for TiVo's future.



> OMG I HATE MOTOROLA BECAUSE COMCAST INTRODUCED 20mbps INTERNET CONNECTIONS BUT MY MOTOROLA MODEM CAN'T TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.
> 
> WTF?


Bad analogy. Even with the the ISP supporting faster connection speeds, older equipment can still receive all websites at the slower speeds. That's not the case with SDV: Rather, now older equipment will no longer be able to receive all the signals that they once were able to receive.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ah30k said:


> One relatively painless way to make more room is to SDV 25, yes that is twenty-five, off-coast channels.


Absolutely. If we had some level of assurance that they'd restrict application of SDV to off-coast channels -- i.e., every program could be accessed on some "non-SDV" channel -- then there really wouldn't be anything to be concerned about.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Man, what have you been smokin'? Can I have some?


Absolutely nothing. I make my purchasing decisions based on what products and services meet my expectations. That's a wholly reasonable and legimitate manner of making purchasing decisions -- indeed it is the only reasonable and legitimate manner of making purchasing decisions.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bicker said:


> It *does *make sense, if your customers know in advance that there is a good chance that that will happen. With a discretionary, luxury purchase, like a TiVo Series 3, knowing that there is a technology that is being adopted that would render the purchase practically worthless for you, you'd be an idiot to make that purchase without some warranty from the company that their device will not become worthless to you.


Please give me the name of one company that will give a money-back guarantee on any product based on these parameters. Good luck with that.



bicker said:


> I don't know that. My cable company hasn't made any such announcements.
> 
> Are you willing to warrant to me that my cable company won't adopt SDV?
> 
> The whole point the earlier poster made was this announcement by this one, prominent cable company could be the end of TiVo, if TiVo doesn't address it, head-on.


The end of Tivo would hardly be the case. It's still a fatuous premise.

Back to the car analogy - knowing that the car could be made less useful (but not completely useless) by the change, would not necessarily be foolish. It would be, only if you needed access to the roads in question. In which case, you are not forced to buy the car. Would this make you mad at the car company for not "seeing ahead" and starting to build SUVs? If you still bought the car, knowing that you would need access to these road, is that the car company's fault?

On the other hand, let's assume that you don't need access to the specific roads, and go ahead a buy the car. Then later, the town designated more roads as SUV only. Should you be able to take your car back to Honda and get a refund, because roads that you could previously use are now no longer available to you?

Just think about how dumb that sounds.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

What sounds dumb is trying to paint such a rosy picture of the Series 3 with SDV in the picture. I think your objections to my personal purchasing criteria smack of over-the-top exuberance rather than rational logic.

When I have time, I'll try to dig out a few examples for you, assuming you really would care about evidence of something you didn't know, of companies that have sold products or services with warranties that would give the customer their money-back if the product or service was rendered substantially less useful.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

No one is trying to paint a rosy picture. I'm just saying, if you can't live without the channels on SDV, then DON'T BUY AN S3. Tell me that's not rational logic.

Tivo will not give you such a warranty, so you'll have to pursue other options.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bicker said:


> ...warranties that would give the customer their money-back if the product or service was rendered substantially less useful.


Not if it's _*OUT OF THEIR CONTROL*_. Quit sniffing the glue....


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Forgive the most likely basic question but what is SDV?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Switched Digital Video.

Simply put, it is a method for cable companies to save bandwidth by transmitting certain lesser-viewed channels only when requested. It required two way communication, which the S3 will not support (neither will CableCard in any of its current iterations).


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

BL said:


> there has been a lot written on the possible change to switched digital, but isn't that going to require a substantial hardware rollout by the affected cable systems?


Hardware upgrades at the head-end and edge nodes yes ... but no hardware upgrades at the customer premise. Existing two-way digital cable STBs that can handle VOD and iPPV are perfectly capable of getting SDV (with a software update).

That's one of the main reasons why SDV is attractive to cable companies now. Relatively minimal upgrade costs ... takes advantage of existing infrastructure and customer premise equipment (unlike some other ways of increasing channel capacity which would require substantial upgrade costs)


BL said:


> If not, if it can be handled by a software change, than how hard can it be for Tivo to adapt the S3 to that technology.


Very difficult.

First off, there's hardware. Cable STBs have a QPSK modulator (and in some cases a DOCSIS modem) in them to send a signal up to the headend. That's how existing cable boxes communicate up to the headend when you order iPPV or VOD or whatever. That's what's used in SDV when a box requests a channel.

Tivo isn't likely to put a QPSK modulator in the S3. It'd be a useless cost / addition for them right now. No VOD, no iPPV, no need to put in a QPSK modulator. Heck, One-way CableCard products are prohibited (via the CableLabs licensing agreement) from even _attempting_ to use a QPSK modulator to communicate up to the cable head-end.

So the S3 isn't even likely to have the hardware (QPSK modulator and/or DOCSIS modem) to communicate an SDV channel request up to the headend. Cable boxes have it (for VOD and iPPV) ... but I don't see Tivo throwing in extra hardware (and cost) for the (very slight) chance of being able to use it later.

Ok, so let's just say Tivo decides to throw a QPSK modulator and DOCSIS modem in for good measure ...

It's still near impossible for Tivo to provide a software update to handle SDV ...

There's no universal SDV 'standard' in the cable world. The basic principles are the same ... but ... there's definately differences in individual implementations. The (brand x) SDV software that Time Warner South Carolina uses is going to communicate with the headend in a slightly different way from the (brand y) SDV software Cox Las Vegas uses. This isn't an issue for the cable company ... Cox Las Vegas gets the (brand y) headend hardware / software and deploys client software to all their boxes that can communicate with it. Time Warner South Carolina gets the (brand x) headend hardware / software and deploys client software to all their boxes that can communicate with it. Done and done. Upgrades and adding functionality and whatever ... they control the head-end and the client software ... they make sure the two are in synch and can talk.

Ahhh ... but a third party like Tivo ...making a box that can work on any cable system ... you need client software that can work with (brand x) software for Time Warner South Carolina, and (brand y) software for Cox Las Vegas, and (brand x 2.0) software for Time Warner Housten, and .... every other SDV solution out there. Very difficult.

So ... the solution the cable industry came up with for third party two-way CableCard products is OCAP. You can think of OCAP as a JVM. The third party software doesn't communicate directly with the head end ... it provides an OCAP environment and downloads software from the cable company that communicates with the head-end. Time Warner South Carolina can keep it's (brand x) implementation ... Cox Las Vegas can keep their (brand y) implementation. They still work slightly differently ... but ... Cox Las Vegas provides an OCAP client that can communicate with their head-ends and Time Warner South Carolina provides an OCAP client that can communicate with their head-end. Hook up your third-party two-way box ... software gets downloaded from your local cable company that works with your local cable company (for SDV, VOD, iPPV, and whatever else comes down the pike).

Ok, sounds good ... but ...

1) OCAP would require even more hardware on the S3 that would be useless in the near-term.

2) The cable and consumer electronics industries are still squabling over some OCAP details.

3) The current version of the OCAP spec would be near useless for Tivo. It would allow them to make a box where the user could watch and view an SDV channel ... but Tivo-provided software wouldn't be able to record any SDV channels. There's lots of other issues Tivo (likely) has with the current OCAP spec too ... CableLabs is supposed to be releasing a new OCAP 1.1 spec later this year that 'addesses' alot of the consumer electronics industry's concerns with OCAP.

Bottom line ... no ... don't expect a software update. Yes, it would be very difficult for Tivo to provide (and add significantly to the cost of the S3).


BL said:


> I saw that one poster said Tivo's cable cards won't be bidirectional--but isn't it possible that they will be in the future?


The consumer electronics and cable industries are 'negotiating' how two-way cable products will work. However, most of the differences between a one-way CableCard product and a two-way CableCard product isn't in the CableCards ... it's in the actual hosts themselves. Ie, the Tivo (or TV or whatever you insert the CableCard into).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Quit sniffing the glue....


Quit being rude and childish.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bicker said:
 

> Quit being rude and childish.


Stop demanding warranties that no company in the world would give, based on changes that are out of their control. You've got your answer. Either live without the off-coast channels or don't get an S3.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

What's interesting is that it appears that you didn't read my messages, since I actually didn't "demand" anything, have asserted that other companies have given similar warranties, and have indicated that the issue for me isn't the off-coast channels. If you don't like to read my messages, please place me in your Ignore list. Otherwise, please let me determine what my criteria are for purchasing the Series 3 and let me express them here. Thanks.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bicker said:


> What's interesting is that it appears that you didn't read my messages, since I actually didn't "demand" anything, have asserted that other companies have given similar warranties, and have indicated that the issue for me isn't the off-coast channels. If you don't like to read my messages, please place me in your Ignore list. Otherwise, please let me determine what my criteria are for purchasing the Series 3 and let me express them here. Thanks.


Now where would I have gotten the idea that you were demanding a warranty from Tivo. Oh yeah...



bicker said:


> Absolutely. TiVo will have to warrant what the S3 *will* be able to do (i.e., with a money-back guarantee if the cable company changes things so TiVo can no longer do what it was purchased for), even though it cannot control cable companies, or they won't get the business of this fervant TiVo fan.


Still waiting for the list of companies giving warranties that their product won't be rendered less functional based on conditions outside of their control...


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

dt_dc said:


> Very difficult.


Impossible would've sufficed.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> Now where would I have gotten the idea that you were demanding a warranty from Tivo. Oh yeah...


Don't blame me for your failure to understand. Your sarcasm both is rude and unwarranted.



> Still waiting for the list of companies giving warranties that their product won't be rendered less functional based on conditions outside of their control...


Yup, I'll be keeping an eye out for them, over the next few weeks.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo is not going to warrant against anything like that. They _might_ put some sort of warning on the box and/or in the manual, and possibly put up a website addressing the SDV issue, but that's about it.

That being said why not buy one, then if it loses it ability to record a channel you feel is invaluable, then sell it on eBay. There will be plenty of people in other markets who are not effected and will happily buy it for a slight discount.

Dan


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

My sarcasm is neither rude nor unwarranted. But I guess name calling is OK, right?



bicker said:


> Quit being rude and childish.





Dan203 said:


> That being said why not buy one, then if it loses it ability to record a channel you feel is invaluable, then sell it on eBay. There will be plenty of people in other markets who are not effected and will happily buy it for a slight discount.


No kidding. You know there will always be a market someplace for these things, somewhere where people can use it and pay for it. Heck, it's Ebay. You might find some folks willing to pay full price for it. For that matter, you might be able to put a bigger hard drive in it (if it's possible with the S3) and charge a premium!



bicker said:


> Yup, I'll be keeping an eye out for them, over the next few weeks.


You do that. I await with breathless anticipation the identification of these companies.


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

Here is a few facts:
The S3 is not out yet.
Tivo knows that Cablecard 1.0 does not support PPV or SDV
Tivo knows Cablecard 2.0 does
Cablecard 2.0 specs and standards are available

Here is one question:
Why doesn't Tivo make the S3 support Cablecard 2.0?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

seattlewendell said:


> Here is a few facts:
> The S3 is not out yet.
> Tivo knows that Cablecard 1.0 does not support PPV or SDV
> Tivo knows Cablecard 2.0 does
> ...


The CC 2.0 specs are finalized yet, are they? Why bother putting equipment in a box (with the extra expense) for something that might not work.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

seattlewendell said:


> Here is a few facts:
> The S3 is not out yet.
> Tivo knows that Cablecard 1.0 does not support PPV or SDV
> Tivo knows Cablecard 2.0 does
> ...


I don't believe CC 2.0 specs are available yet.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Here is a few facts:
> The S3 is not out yet.
> Tivo knows that Cablecard 1.0 does not support PPV or SDV
> Tivo knows Cablecard 2.0 does
> ...


Those are not facts.

CC2.0 ratification is still a ways off. When that's done, all we will have is a piece of paper with hundreds upon hundreds of pages of specifications. Then companies like Broadcom will design the silicon hardware (chips) to actually make CC2.0 products possible. After that, companies like Tivo can take that Broadcom silicon, build a box with it, and then write software to make it all work in a seamless way.

Expect CC2.0 in the Series4 Tivo in late 2009. When that happens, I'll move the Series3 to the bedroom (which by that time should have a HD plasma on the wall) and buy a Series4 for the TV room.


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Those are not facts.
> 
> CC2.0 ratification is still a ways off. When that's done, all we will have is a piece of paper with hundreds upon hundreds of pages of specifications. Then companies like Broadcom will design the silicon hardware (chips) to actually make CC2.0 products possible. After that, companies like Tivo can take that Broadcom silicon, build a box with it, and then write software to make it all work in a seamless way.
> 
> Expect CC2.0 in the Series4 Tivo in late 2009. When that happens, I'll move the Series3 to the bedroom (which by that time should have a HD plasma on the wall) and buy a Series4 for the TV room.


I guess I was mis-informed.
Since the as yet released series 3 seems....well limited by cablecard's 1.0 problems then it seems more people than I would like (since I want the series 3 to succeed), are going to side with the title of this thread.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> Sounds like it's time for someone to file a complaint with the FCC about TimeWarner's end run around the CableCard mandate.


TiVo already did.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

BL said:


> there has been a lot written on the possible change to switched digital, but isn't that going to require a substantial hardware rollout by the affected cable systems? If not, if it can be handled by a software change, than how hard can it be for Tivo to adapt the S3 to that technology.


As said, some hardware changes at headends and edge nodes, software possibly on existing 2-way STBs. The S3 is limited in its hardware from supporting bi-directional directly.


> I saw that one poster said Tivo's cable cards won't be bidirectional--but
> isn't it possible that they will be in the future? I'm sure Tivo isn't just asleep at the "switch."


TiVo's Cablecard support is Unidirectional, but there is an off chance bidirectionality could be developed (not necessarily full CC2.0, maybe CC2.0 Lite), but chances are very likely that a further version would support bi-directional services.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> You know there will always be a market someplace for these things, somewhere where people can use it and pay for it.


It's not worth the risk. The whole point about TiVo is that it is objectively better than the cable company DVR. If they cannot guarantee that, then I see no point in spending money for a TiVo. At that point, I'd be willing only to pay a monthly fee, without a service committment, so that if the device is no longer of value to me, TiVo can have it back. Other folks might have vastly more tolerance for TiVo's product not being able to address a known threat in the short-term. I don't. There is no reason for me to, since the cable company is willing to make that offer to me. Again, TiVo has to offer at least as good of a deal. They earn points by having a better UI. They lose points by having an upfront cost for the box. Then they lose points again for being unable to adequately address my concerns about SDV. 2-1 in favor of the cable company: TiVo loses. And I'm a long-time TiVo fan. Just think about the casual television viewer who wouldn't even acknowledge the one point (the better UI) that I'm willing to acknowledge.


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## JoN8282 (Feb 27, 2005)

here is a question... someone earlier mentioned having boxes turned on to the sdv channels in homes connected to the "node" , this would then make the channel available because its already "on". 

Instead of having 25 boxes hooked up, why not just use one of the cable co's dual tuner dvr's, program it to match your to do list on the SDV stations and let it open and close the channels for you - you can then enjoy all your tivo s3 goodness. 

am i right about this?

also... as far as a money standpoint.... people need to realize that sometimes you need to pay a price for a premium product/service... this includes all whining about suspected price of a series 3 unit, and the thought of having to maybe pay $20 a month on top of the tivo charge to rent the cable cards and have a second dvd on to open up the SDV.

and for the record, i also dont see why anyone with a dual cable card tivo would care about west coast replay channels not being available. just record it the first time... and to make matters worse, those were all movie premium channels, so anything on there is going replay on each version of the channel multiple times... we arent talking about NBC being SDV here.... and none of those channels are HD either... 

i see the whole thing as a moot point... but i would like an answer on my cable co dvd switching theory if someone has it tho?


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

classicsat said:


> TiVo's Cablecard support is Unidirectional, but there is an off chance bidirectionality could be developed (not necessarily full CC2.0, maybe CC2.0 Lite), but chances are very likely that a further version would support bi-directional services.


I think this is wrong as it has been stated that it can use CC1 bidirectional cards


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aztivo said:


> I think this is wrong as it has been stated that it can use CC1 bidirectional cards


Nope! The Series 3 can use *Multi-Stream* CableCARDs. That is a single card capable of tuning more then one channel. It does NOT support bidirectional communication. In fact even if it had all the hardware to do so, it still wouldn't work because the CableCARD 2.0 spec, with bidirectional support, isn;t expected to be finalized until next year at the soonest.

Dan


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Nope! The Series 3 can use *Multi-Stream* CableCARDs. That is a single card capable of tuning more then one channel. It does NOT support bidirectional communication. In fact even if it had all the hardware to do so, it still wouldn't work because the CableCARD 2.0 spec, with bidirectional support, isn;t expected to be finalized until next year at the soonest.
> 
> Dan


Okay that is what I was meaning and used the wrong term. Thanks for the clarification Dan


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## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

The Tivo site says that the S3 REQUIRES a CableCard for HD. My local cable co. offers CableCards for digital cable but I think they require a box for HD service. I guess I'm screwed as well.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> FCC: No SDV until CC 3


 :up: :up: :up:

Absolutely perfect!


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Sirius Black said:


> Forgive the most likely basic question but what is SDV?


Some
Dumb
Vision

by the cable companies to weasal out of delivering on the intent of the FCC CableCARD mandate.

(a.k.a. Switched Digital Video)


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Unix_Beard said:


> The Tivo site says that the S3 REQUIRES a CableCard for HD. My local cable co. offers CableCards for digital cable but I think they require a box for HD service. I guess I'm screwed as well.


Uh, no, they must offer CableCARD for all digital cable channels - including HD channels. That's the entire POINT of CableCARD, really the only people using them today are people with HDTV sets with CableCARD tuners in them. And the few people with the Sony HD DVR that used a CableCARD.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

tjramsey said:


> Which city are you in?
> 
> I'm in Austin, and those channel numbers seem familiar. I had gotten out from under TW when I lived closer into town, but now that I'm further north, Grande is no longer available, and the SDV stuff worries me..... this particular switch not too awful much with two tuners, I can get the HBO stuff from the east feed no problem, but it doesn't make me too confident about the future.
> 
> ...


Albany, NY
I wasn't expecting SDV for another year, but it came MUCH sooner than expected.

Have also gotten confirmation that TW will not lower their rates if you have CC and can no longer get those channels, nor will they give you an STB for "free". Boy, what a win-win for them, and lose-lose for the consumer.

Can only hope that Verizon FIOS TV comes in a year or so.

Sigh.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

megazone said:


> Uh, no, they must offer CableCARD for all digital cable channels - including HD channels. That's the entire POINT of CableCARD, really the only people using them today are people with HDTV sets with CableCARD tuners in them. And the few people with the Sony HD DVR that used a CableCARD.


Not quite. I believe there is at least ONE, if not TWO active TW markets where Universal HD and I think another HD channel are SDV ONLYL, thus you must get an STB.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

I should've qualified my statement - any standard digital cable channels, SDV is a completely different beast.


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## cthree (Sep 24, 2005)

I still don't understand what the problem is. These are timeshifted other coast channels. You still get all the same programming only 2-3 hours earlier, isn't that the whole point of Tivo?? Sure you won't get specialty subscribed channels like The Vietnam Channel but you will still get all of your basic, HD and premium channels.


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## cthree (Sep 24, 2005)

JoN8282 said:


> also... as far as a money standpoint.... people need to realize that sometimes you need to pay a price for a premium product/service... this includes all whining about suspected price of a series 3 unit, and the thought of having to maybe pay $20 a month on top of the tivo charge to rent the cable cards and have a second dvd on to open up the SDV.


CableCard rental fees are nominal, less than a basic converter. Cox charges $2/mo each.


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## jhwpbm (Feb 28, 2002)

cthree said:


> I still don't understand what the problem is. These are timeshifted other coast channels. You still get all the same programming only 2-3 hours earlier, isn't that the whole point of Tivo?? Sure you won't get specialty subscribed channels like The Vietnam Channel but you will still get all of your basic, HD and premium channels.


The POINT is, what happens when your friendly local cable monopoly decides to switch some OTHER channels to SDV? Some channels that you want to watch but CAN'T with your TiVo S3? What's to keep them from switching ALL their premium channels to SDV? THAT'S the point, at least in my mind.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Precisely. As long as TiVo can record every program there is, no problem. When suddenly some programming is only available versus SDV, then depending on how many such channels are affected and which ones, it could render a Series 3 practically useless.


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## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

megazone said:


> Uh, no, they must offer CableCARD for all digital cable channels - including HD channels. That's the entire POINT of CableCARD, really the only people using them today are people with HDTV sets with CableCARD tuners in them. And the few people with the Sony HD DVR that used a CableCARD.


You are right! My cable co (ma and pa) changed their tune from last year. Got my cable card today in anticipation of the S3. I kept my old cable box to drive the Tivo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo is not going to warrant against anything like that. They _might_ put some sort of warning on the box and/or in the manual, and possibly put up a website addressing the SDV issue, but that's about it.


TiVo is also filing with the FCC over the SDV issue. Another thread has the content of that filing but I can not find the thread now. TiVo is not sitting still on SDV but is actively doing what it can about something *not under its control*


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Just think about the casual television viewer


The S3 is not for the casual TV Viewer. The casual TV viewer would most liklely not even understand this one thread without having to go found out what cable card and all the 1 or 2 talk is about. This is why TiVo is making the S3 a premium product and will not be subsidizing the cost of the hardware. TiVo expects to be making a profit from day 1 of someone buying an S3 and not looking for long term subscription benefit, that is just the gravy.

Don't like the risks then do what I am doing, stay with the series 2 DT and to heck with the cable companies and their digital tier. or get a cable comapany DVR and deal with the interface other issues. TiVo is just not looking for volume on the S3. You can keep repeating your demand for a warranty but it does not fit the business model for the S3 at all.


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

Well I am interested in buying a series 3 Tivo for HD only on my 60" Sony SXRD HDTV. I have 2 Tivo's connected to SD sets that take care of any SD programs I want to watch. So a cable company putting West Coast feed (I am East Coast) standard def channels on SDV I could care less. 

If and when Time Warner Columbus Ohio starts putting HD channels on SDV, that would be a problem for me.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

George Cifranci said:


> Well I am interested in buying a series 3 Tivo for HD only on my 60" Sony SXRD HDTV. . . .


Awesome set. My favorite TV to date! I was going to make this my next TV purchase, but I am not ready to buy yet. Tonight, at Best Buy, I just found out it is discontinued 

Do you have any idea what the replacement is?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> You can keep repeating your demand for a warranty but it does not fit the business model for the S3 at all.


I never made any "demand" (it's interesting that I've said that several times, and yet it seems to slip past some people's eyes) and I've only repeated my criteria in response to specific misinterpretations of my previous messages. It makes me wonder what inspires folks to be so vigourous in their advocacy, that they refuse to allow others to express their perspective amicably.  I'm the first person to jump all over someone placing an unwarranted expectation on a company. The *first *person. No kidding. And I can readily understand people misinterpreting what I wrote, once, maybe twice, but not *four *times: "... my purchasing decisions..." "...my personal purchasing criteria...", "I actually didn't 'demand' anything ... please let me determine what my criteria..." and "of value to me". Four times.

And people wonder why we're concerned about why Johnny can't read.


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> The S3 is not for the casual TV Viewer. The casual TV viewer would most liklely not even understand this one thread without having to go found out what cable card and all the 1 or 2 talk is about. This is why TiVo is making the S3 a premium product and will not be subsidizing the cost of the hardware. TiVo expects to be making a profit from day 1 of someone buying an S3 and not looking for long term subscription benefit, that is just the gravy.
> 
> Don't like the risks then do what I am doing, stay with the series 2 DT and to heck with the cable companies and their digital tier. or get a cable comapany DVR and deal with the interface other issues. TiVo is just not looking for volume on the S3. You can keep repeating your demand for a warranty but it does not fit the business model for the S3 at all.


HDTVs are not really a high-end premium product anymore. It's becoming more mainstream today. In fact, more HDTV's are sold everyday than a CRT SD TV set. The same is true of DVRs.

I would argue that this is the perfect opportunity for Tivo to push for mainstream marketing of S3 because there's going to be a void left by VHS that people have been using for ages. There's really not a very good HD capable recording product on the market today for people without cable or satellite, and that's a significant number.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> And people wonder why we're concerned about why Johnny can't read.


fine, then read "you can keep saying you will not buy an S3 without a warranty against SDV but that will not make the warranty fit TiVo incs. business plan nor make them inclined to change their business model to capture your sale"


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

PhillyGuy said:


> HDTVs are not really a high-end premium product anymore. It's becoming more mainstream today. In fact, more HDTV's are sold everyday than a CRT SD TV set. The same is true of DVRs.
> 
> I would argue that this is the perfect opportunity for Tivo to push for mainstream marketing of S3 because there's going to be a void left by VHS that people have been using for ages. There's really not a very good HD capable recording product on the market today for people without cable or satellite, and that's a significant number.


the avergae TV viewer is content with the TV they had for the past few years, they are not buying the new sets.

People who want something better are willing to spend 1,000 and up for a good HDTV and are buying. So TiVo thinks they are willing to pay a premium price 800$ for a S3. This is the market for the S3 coming out of the gate.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

I agree with Zeo on this one. I know lots of people that still don't have an HDTV. Those that do, don't even subscribe to the HD STB that TW has (they somehow think that they magically get HD just because they have the TV). Cable card? They have no clue.

I also realize that Tivo is "powerless" in the SDV issue (other than of course filing with the FCC) until the CC 2.0 spec is released.

But obviously now I'm in the group that has to decide: Buy a rather expensive product that already doesn't work with the channels I pay for and that list could very well expand, or suffer with the totally unreliable Cable DVR (the interface I can deal with. The random "missed" recordings and the inability to prevent recordings of re-runs is something I cannot deal with).

If I knew that FIOS TV was coming (for a fact) to our area in under a year, then I'd buy a Series 3 for sure. (I have FIOS internet, but supposedly Verizon won't be adding TV until they get a national agreement, as supposedly the Town of Colonie is "buddy buddy" with TW and won't approve a franchise).


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

m_jonis said:


> I agree with Zeo on this one. I know lots of people that still don't have an HDTV. Those that do, don't even subscribe to the HD STB that TW has (they somehow think that they magically get HD just because they have the TV). Cable card? They have no clue.
> 
> I also realize that Tivo is "powerless" in the SDV issue (other than of course filing with the FCC) until the CC 2.0 spec is released.
> 
> ...


I am now using the Moto 3412 HD cable box with Comcast and it does a reasonable good job of not recording repeats (not as good as TiVo but good enough that I can deal with it) In the beginning it would record a program without sound, sometimes without picture but the problem was the back end of the cable system not the Moto box as my friends with that box had the same problem. For the last 6 months I have not had any problem at all except space that for now I can't increase. I do back up all my HD recordings with a Series 2 TiVo so space or any other HD problem will not leave me without the program at all. As I don't use On Demand or PPV and want more space I will be looking at the Series 3 to replace my Moto box but I will not be the first to buy one. I want to see what the experience of other TiVo users are with the Series 3.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

Yes, from what I hear, the Motorola box and the STB with the Pioneer software are "better" than those of us with the crappy SARA software. Unfortunately with TW, you're stuck with the Scientific Atlanta boxes and depends on which market as to whether you get SARA or PACE


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the avergae TV viewer is content with the TV they had for the past few years, they are not buying the new sets.
> 
> People who want something better are willing to spend 1,000 and up for a good HDTV and are buying. So TiVo thinks they are willing to pay a premium price 800$ for a S3. This is the market for the S3 coming out of the gate.


That was the market a year or two ago. The price of HDTV has been falling, and will continue to drop during the digital transition. You can get 32 or 37 inch LCD nowadays for less than $700. If you walk around Walmart or Target, you'll see that the shelves are stocked with HDTVs not CRTs. Walmart is pretty reflective of the mid-class America.

People will not pay more for an accessory than for the cost of the TV set. Tivo can choose to completely ignore this growing segment of the market or to embrace it. I think it's a mistake to price it out of the reach of the majority of the potential consumers as there is plenty of competition already in the HD-DVR market.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

aztivo said:


> I think this is wrong as it has been stated that it can use CC1 bidirectional cards


There are no public CC1.x Bi-directional cards.

The S3, as it stands per the CES demo, can use single or multistream CC1.0 cards, or a CC2.0, sans the bi-directional features.

I am simply postulating, is they (I am leaving it open as to whom "they" could be) could work out a simpler bidirectional CC scheme, or include CC2.0 in a later revision of the S3, if/when CC2.0 gets worked out.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

PhillyGuy said:


> That was the market a year or two ago. The price of HDTV has been falling, and will continue to drop during the digital transition. You can get 32 or 37 inch LCD nowadays for less than $700. If you walk around Walmart or Target, you'll see that the shelves are stocked with HDTVs not CRTs. Walmart is pretty reflective of the mid-class America.
> 
> People will not pay more for an accessory than for the cost of the TV set. Tivo can choose to completely ignore this growing segment of the market or to embrace it. I think it's a mistake to price it out of the reach of the majority of the potential consumers as there is plenty of competition already in the HD-DVR market.


Like was said above, a lot of those shoppers are getting the flat panel they can put on the wall or the new sharper LCD or plasma screen, or else they ask what should they get to future proof and of course are told to get an HDTV.

For those getting the 700$ HDTVs they may not even be thinking DVR. TiVo has said they will not subsidize the cost of the S3 and that makes sense when they can sell it to people who would shell out 2,000 or more for a GOOD HDTV.

after a while the rebates will flow to knock off from that higher end price but word of mouth needs to be out there from people who know what they are buying into first. that will be those ready to shell out some bucks.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

JoN8282 said:


> here is a question... someone earlier mentioned having boxes turned on to the sdv channels in homes connected to the "node" , this would then make the channel available because its already "on".
> 
> Instead of having 25 boxes hooked up, why not just use one of the cable co's dual tuner dvr's, program it to match your to do list on the SDV stations and let it open and close the channels for you - you can then enjoy all your tivo s3 goodness.
> 
> am i right about this?


Almost. The only thing is the TiVo won't know where to tune for that channel. Sure, you might be able to manually tune the QAM channel ( I suspect you likely won't though).

It will only work if the cable company dynamically maps the SDV channels into the normal channel map a CC equipped tuner gets.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Earlier in this thread there was some question about whether a company would ever offer an unconditional refund if you wanted to return a product because it no longer satisfied you. I had the good fortune to do business last week with just such a company, LL Bean. From $10 slippers all the way up to $1300 kayaks, their policy is simple: If you're ever unsatisfied with something before it wears out, they'll take it back and refund your purchase price, no questions asked. Now, surely, not every business can afford to provide that level of customer service, and TiVo is surely among the weaker candidates. However, it bears repeating that TiVo's competitors for the S3, the cable companies, aren't even requiring you to pay for the DVR -- that's even better than getting a refund later, if it turns out that a change in technology makes it no longer satisfactory for your purposes.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

bicker said:


> ... Now, surely, not every business can afford to provide that level of customer service, and TiVo is surely among the weaker candidates. However, it bears repeating that TiVo's competitors for the S3, the cable companies, aren't even requiring you to pay for the DVR -- that's even better than getting a refund later, if it turns out that a change in technology makes it no longer satisfactory for your purposes.


If you like the superior TiVo interface and functionality, then you pay for the TiVo box. If the superior interface, and functionality isn't worth it for you, then don't buy it. It's really simple


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Definitely -- if the UI is a prevailing consideration, then you don't have any choice. It's only if you're weighing all the aspects of the various offerings against each other that there is really any decision to be made.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

PhillyGuy said:


> That was the market a year or two ago. The price of HDTV has been falling, and will continue to drop during the digital transition. You can get 32 or 37 inch LCD nowadays for less than $700. If you walk around Walmart or Target, you'll see that the shelves are stocked with HDTVs not CRTs. Walmart is pretty reflective of the mid-class America.
> 
> People will not pay more for an accessory than for the cost of the TV set. Tivo can choose to completely ignore this growing segment of the market or to embrace it. I think it's a mistake to price it out of the reach of the majority of the potential consumers as there is plenty of competition already in the HD-DVR market.


People wants to have HDTV and get an HD DVR for under $200-500 dollars.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> People wants to have HDTV and get an HD DVR for under $200-500 dollars.


Then they can choose between settling on an inferior interface, or waiting a year or so for the S3's pricing to drop.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> People wants to have HDTV and get an HD DVR for under $200-500 dollars.


Yeah, well I wanted a new bike for Christmas one year when I was a kid, and didn't get it. I suspect that the S3 will be selling for under $500 long before my parents buy me that bike!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

megazone said:


> Then they can choose between settling on an inferior interface, or waiting a year or so for the S3's pricing to drop.


Actually, waiting a year or so will accomplish either -- improvements to the interface on the cable company DVRs are also likely.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

yes, since Comcast will have a TiVo like software and will give those for boxes for free and the monthly will only cost 5 to 10 bucks.

and Since the current S3 features may be just like the FREE Comcast/TiVo, why would I buy an 800 machine. So the price will be lower and the Free Comcast/Tivo will be good enough.

Today:
09/2006 - Series3 HD for $799 with out TTG, MRV, KIDZONE, ESATA.

My future guess:
11/2006 - Series3 HD for $799 adding KIDZONE and ESATA.
01/2007 - Series3 HD for $599 after $200 rebate and adding TTG and MRV.
03/2007 - Comcast/TiVo software roll out for an extra cable monthly of $5 to 10 per month.
03/2007 - Series3 HD for $599 after $200 rebate and adding Downloading of movies and TV shows.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> My future guess:
> 11/2006 - Series3 HD for $799 adding KIDZONE and ESATA.
> 01/2007 - Series3 HD for $599 after $200 rebate and adding TTG and MRV.
> 03/2007 - Comcast/TiVo software roll out for an extra cable monthly of $5 to 10 per month.
> 03/2007 - Series3 HD for $599 after $200 rebate and adding Downloading of movies and TV shows.


Wow, MLR, I hope you're right - I'd be thrilled if that's how things play out...


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## ejennis (Mar 5, 2002)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> yes, since Comcast will have a TiVo like software and will give those for boxes for free and the monthly will only cost 5 to 10 bucks.


This seems like a very unreasonable price point given that the HD Dual Tuner DVR they lease out now is a $16.95/mo charge. I would suspect they will charge more on the order $19.95/mo for the Tivo enabled DVR boxes, but that is a WAG on my part.

-Eric


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

ejennis said:


> This seems like a very unreasonable price point given that the HD Dual Tuner DVR they lease out now is a $16.95/mo charge. I would suspect they will charge more on the order $19.95/mo for the Tivo enabled DVR boxes, but that is a WAG on my part.
> 
> -Eric


Sorry I meant an additional $5 to 10 on top of the current Comcast Charges to get the TiVo software on those boxes.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> yes, since Comcast will have a TiVo like software and will give those for boxes for free and the monthly will only cost 5 to 10 bucks.
> 
> and Since the current S3 features may be just like the FREE Comcast/TiVo, why would I buy an 800 machine. So the price will be lower and the Free Comcast/Tivo will be good enough.
> 
> ...


My Future guess is wrong so far.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Where does this leave us who have Sat TV? The Series 3 is designed for Cable Users only.

So us with Sat TV are left with the Series 2 DT, as the Single Model has been removed.

This sucks!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I agree with bicker though. And of course he's not DEMANDING that TiVo does this (he's in no position to do so), but saying, as I would, that TiVo needs to do this in order to keep increasing sales of the Series 3 model.

Potential Series 3 customer, calling the cable company: "Which channels can I receive with a cable card in my Series 3?"

CSR, reading from a script: "You can receive <basic x, y, and z> channels but only with SuperCableService's own DVR can you receive <premium a, b, and c> channels, all included in the standard DVR/digital tier service."

Tell me what incentive remains for the potential Series 3 customer, who currently happens to like his movie channel offerings, to buy the TiVo product?

If TiVo could say for sure when he inquires about this that they will within a certain time be able to let him watch these channels, it MIGHT at least leave them a still potential customer...


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

wolflord11 said:


> Where does this leave us who have Sat TV? The Series 3 is designed for Cable Users only.
> 
> So us with Sat TV are left with the Series 2 DT, as the Single Model has been removed.
> 
> This sucks!


Huh? 

The Series3 is an HD DVR, the Series2's are not. They have nothing to do with each other. The only method to build a standalone HD-DVR is to use cablecards. DirecTV and Dish Network do not open up their standards to TiVo, so they cannot build one that will work with Satellite. They used to and DirecTV discontinued it and decided to build their own.

The DT is better than the single model, so what's your point..?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wolflord11 said:


> Where does this leave us who have Sat TV? The Series 3 is designed for Cable Users only.
> 
> So us with Sat TV are left with the Series 2 DT, as the Single Model has been removed.
> 
> This sucks!


I would suggest you write your Sat company and ask them to support TiVo


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I would suggest you write your Sat company and ask them to support TiVo


Or his political representative and complain that their (congress and FCC) whole purpose for mandating CableCARD is being railroaded by the emergence of SDV technology.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

MickeS said:


> Or his political representative and complain that their (congress and FCC) whole purpose for mandating CableCARD is being railroaded by the emergence of SDV technology.


Amen to that


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I agree with bicker though. And of course he's not DEMANDING that TiVo does this (he's in no position to do so), but saying, as I would, that TiVo needs to do this in order to keep increasing sales of the Series 3 model.


Exactly. I'm actually amazed to see that there are still folks encountering the Missing Channel problems and the Partial Recording problems. How can anyone expect the average J6P to invest $600-$800 plus $9-$20 per month, with that level of unreliability?



MickeS said:


> If TiVo could say for sure when he inquires about this that they will within a certain time be able to let him watch these channels, it MIGHT at least leave them a still potential customer...


And TiVo has been very reticent about providing hard commitments for finally resolving even the most basic issues, such as the two I mentioned earlier.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Or his political representative and complain that their (congress and FCC) whole purpose for mandating CableCARD is being railroaded by the emergence of SDV technology.


While you're at it, make sure Congress passes laws that apply CableCard-like requirements on satellite providers. After all, fair is fair.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *Adam1115*
> The DT is better than the single model, so what's your point..?


Not if you are a satellite user that also watches/records their locals from OTA.

Thanks,


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

wolflord11 said:


> ...The Series 3 is designed for Cable Users only....


What?

Then why do I have a connector on the back of my S3 that says antenna?


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

oops, responded to 5 month old post!


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> Not if you are a satellite user that also watches/records their locals from OTA.
> 
> Thanks,


And yes, if you are in the 3% of the country that isn't served by either satellite provider, and also want a SA TiVo, you need to buy the Humax DVD unit for $99.

But this isn't TiVo's fault, you do realize that they aren't ALLOWED to sell a product that gets analog OTA, right? Do you think they would be smart to develop a product that recorded ATSC in analog just to satisfy a handful of satellite customers that need their locals OTA??


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Adam1115; 

What I think TiVo should have done was added the ability to control/record from a STB to the Series 3. I understand the Series 3 would only have the ability to record anything coming from the STB in SD, but at least we (the users) would have a choice. 

I also think it wouldn't be all the hard or expensive ($20-40) to add a digital OTA tuner to a Series 2 DT unit again giving users more choices. 

Remember using a DVR/TiVo is all about giving the user control over their TV viewing experience. The fact that TiVo is now making products that limit a users choices of content just doesn't seem to be in the sprit of what TiVo is all about. 

Thanks,


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> Adam1115;
> 
> What I think TiVo should have done was added the ability to control/record from a STB to the Series 3. I understand the Series 3 would only have the ability to record anything coming from the STB in SD, but at least we (the users) would have a choice.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you... but they apparently decided that it wasn't worth it or that there wasn't a big enough market..

I would have loved to have had the ability for my S3 to record from a STB to complement my OTA HD...


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

wolflord11 said:


> Where does this leave us who have Sat TV? The Series 3 is designed for Cable Users only.
> 
> So us with Sat TV are left with the Series 2 DT, as the Single Model has been removed.
> 
> This sucks!


The series 2 DT will work fine with satellite, the same as the Single tuner model. Satellite users basically lose nothing they had before.



Adam1115 said:


> The only method to build a standalone HD-DVR is to use cablecards. DirecTV and Dish Network do not open up their standards to TiVo, so they cannot build one that will work with Satellite. They used to and DirecTV discontinued it and decided to build their own.


Close. Maybe close enough.

More precisely, the only way to effectively digitally record HD is to directly record the program stream, and there are only two platforms open enough to produce as general purpose an HD-DVR as TiVo can, that being Cablecard and ATSC.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> I would have loved to have had the ability for my S3 to record from a STB to complement my OTA HD...


I can see where you are coming from.......
I can also see the developers for TiVo gleefully ripping out the d$%n code they had to maintain and tune that blasted the IR signals to change channels. The engineers also happily discrarded the IR and serial connections as well


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

I guess the Price may change to $499 soon......, but still no ESATA, TTG and MRV



MediaLivingRoom said:


> yes, since Comcast will have a TiVo like software and will give those for boxes for free and the monthly will only cost 5 to 10 bucks.
> 
> and Since the current S3 features may be just like the FREE Comcast/TiVo, why would I buy an 800 machine. So the price will be lower and the Free Comcast/Tivo will be good enough.
> 
> ...


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> I guess the Price may change to $499 soon......, but still no ESATA, TTG and MRV


Well you got the "downloading movies and TV shows" part right!!! 

Icing on the cake as far as my S3 is concerned...


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