# R10 Dvr Vs R15 Dvr



## kuhars5 (Feb 25, 2006)

Is the R10 DVR Better then the R15 DVR because I have the R10


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

kuhars5 said:


> Is the R10 DVR Better then the R15 DVR because I have the R10


Better for whom?


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

kuhars5 said:


> Is the R10 DVR Better then the R15 DVR because I have the R10


It's all subjective. You should go over to the other forum for your answer. The R15 is not being discussed in this forum.


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## kuhars5 (Feb 25, 2006)

I wanted to know because I am thinking about upgrading to a R15


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

kuhars5 said:


> I wanted to know because I am thinking about upgrading to a R15


Upgrade?

I am not sure that word could be used to describe the OTHER DVR at the moment. Again, you should visit the other forum where it is being discussed.

DBSTalk.com


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

R15 an _upgrade_? I wanna smoke some of that stuff!!


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 21, 2006)

It must be better, 15 is > 10...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

As of right now... yes..
I would agree that the R15 isn't an upgrade.

Kinda of a step to the right, and maybe down one step.

In a few months though... it may be on the same level, and have a bunch of more stairs above it... then the DTivo product line...


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

kuhars5 said:


> Is the R10 DVR Better then the R15 DVR because I have the R10


I got this from another forum. Seems like the R-15 does a lot that R-10 doesnt.

Picture and sound in all the menus and screens.

Ability to watch a recorded show and still do other things like browse the guide or do some housecleaning.

One line guide to use so it doesnt block the TV picture.

Free space % indicator.

Much longer buffer

A fast guide and in the guide you can tell at a glance what shows are scheduled to record, also simply press record in the guide and the show will record or a SL will be made.

Interactive channels (News Mix, Sports Mix, etc...) and features for sports like NFL, NBA, Olympics, etc...

Caller ID on screen,

Conflict select screens where it allows you to choose from ALL conflicts

Active features with Best Bests PPV shows, lottery, weather, horoscope, daily TV highlights and more.

Ability to directly record XM channels.

Download PPV's to watch later without paying and if you dont watch you dont pay.

A lot of sort options in the VOD

Able to see the program descriptions in the VOD without clicking on the program.

Manual recording can be done in1 minute increments.

Cool blue whirling swirling light on the box. (I know some hate it)

Very fast FF and RR.

Main menu is a small overlay so you can still watch TV when looking for options.

Two favorite channels lists.

Stores previous channels viewed for quick recall

A lot of Parental Control options


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

The biggest downside at the moment is the lack of dual buffers.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Nice list... and all of them are true..

Two things to add.

The 90 minute buffer.... If you pause a program, and then walk away... 
And it goes past the 90 minute buffer... the unit will automatically turn the program you where watching into a RECORDING... so you don't lose it.

It of course when you return to the system will ask you if you want to keep it or not.

The Swirling light is easily turned off.


But... to dig more into the features and issues of the R15... I highly recommend a visit to www.dbstalk.com


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

JimSpence said:


> The biggest downside at the moment is the lack of dual buffers.


You'd be surprised how quickly you get over it....
I still wish it was there... but I have adjusted to it not being there.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

Wow. What a bunch of rebels, discussing the unit "that shall not be named" so openly in TivoCommunity land. The moderators should be sweeping through with their cyber napalm at any minute.

At first I didn't understand this concern when so much else that is not a Directv TiVo is discussed on this forum, but I have developed a theory.

If I say anmore, and I'm right, I'll probably get locked out


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

But if DirecTV buys TiVo... then I guess by defacto... TivoCommunity would = DirecTVCommunity

HEY!!!!!! maybe that is why they are trying to buy TiVo....
Since the official DirecTV forums are not even in the same class as this one.


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

kuhars5 said:


> I wanted to know because I am thinking about upgrading to a R15


The R15 is a POS!


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> In a few months though... it may be on the same level, and have a bunch of more stairs above it... then the DTivo product line...


I really doubt it. You are way too much of an optimist. The bottom line is that the NewsCorp developers have already proven their ineptitude. Bad software developers do not magically get better. Unless they fire a bunch of the bozos that are currently writing the software and hire people who have experience doing agile and test driven developent, the R15 software will only get worse over time.

I think if they bought the TIVO software from TIVO and started modifying it and deploying it to the customer base, over time the end result would be a product as bad or worse than the R15.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Rick and Billy....

Do you own R15's.. ?
Have you actually tried an R15?
Or are you basing your comments on what others have written?

Last time I used one (last night)... it works pretty darn good...
It has it's issues yet, and hasn't been "promoted" to the main vieing area... but it is in the master bedroom now.

Optimisim is part of it... but I have had a TiVo for gosh almost 5 years now.
I know pretty well inside and out.

The R15... from what I can see, and know, and have been told.... IS.. going to be a good unit. Is it going to be a "perfect" unit... no... the TiVo isn't a perfect unit either.

Are there going to be people who prefer one over the other? most definently.
There are still people that prefer their VCR over a DVR..

Either way... everyone is allowed to make their own choice.

If you want to find out more about the R15.. in depth.
Head over to www.dbstalk.com


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## Rubenc2 (Mar 11, 2006)

My R10 just died and I called directv since I only had it for 6 months.They said they could send me a new unit for 14.95.I said sure.I get it and its the R15.I had no idea this was not a tivo based unit.I tried to use it for 1 day and I couldnt stand it anymore.I bought a new drive to put back in my HDVR2.All I can say is the R10 is like DSL and the R15 is like dial up.Enough said.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> As of right now... yes..
> I would agree that the R15 isn't an upgrade.
> 
> Kinda of a step to the right, and maybe down one step.
> ...





BillyT2002 said:


> You are way too much of an optimist.


I have to agree with BillyT2002, Earl, _"You are way too much of an optimist."_.

Remember back in December, you said you though that DirecTV would have all of the bugs cleared up by the end of January, it is now the last half of March, well do they?

I believe that the dual buffer is likely delayed or maybe even on the back burner and the other bugs, well can you let us know what they have fixed, by maybe posting a summary on the other forum. At this point, based upon feedback on the other forum, there appears to have been very little progress. Thanks.

BTW, how do you survive in the IT world being such an optimist?

I know we use to joke about us programmers always saying it is 90% done when it actually was only 50% done, based upon the total time to complete the project. But since you are a development manager, how could you survive?


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Rick and Billy....
> 
> Do you own R15's.. ?
> Have you actually tried an R15?
> ...


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

rick31621 said:


> ebonovic said:
> 
> 
> > Rick and Billy....
> ...


You can't blame Earl, he's an eternal optimist.

And I have not idea how he survives in the IT world as a Development Manager.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

I survive, as I have access to my code, and correct the problems I find.. 

I am not sure I said by the end of January... but they are occuring now (10AF update is rolling out now, that at this point appears to have solved the Series Link issues)

If I didn't continue to work with the R15 (aka, gave up after 1 day) I would probably have the same view as most... It probably took a good two weeks to get used to the interface.


If you guys haven't been to dbstalk.com lately... there is a new software version (I think this is the third or forth since the release)... 

with another on the way in the 2 -4 weeks that will introduce some new features to the system.

But again.... that is talk for the other forum.


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## k1114 (Nov 22, 2005)

I've never had any problems with my R15, and IMO the interface is vastly superior to the slow and aged old tivo interface.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> I survive, as I have access to my code, and correct the problems I find..
> 
> I am not sure I said by the end of January... but they are occuring now (10AF update is rolling out now, that at this point appears to have solved the Series Link issues)
> 
> ...


Earl, if you write and modify code as a main part of your job description, then I would classify you as a programmer/part-time manager and you would fall into the classification of a programmer who is an eternal optimist. That usual type of eternal optimist, always says that a project is 90% done when pressured for a status when the project is actually only 50% done.

Just look at some of the development projects that Microsoft has worked on over the last few years, like SQL Server 2005, which is still not technically finished, with some of the final code to be released with SP1. (Like mirroring and the express manager as examples)

No, Earl, I am not pressuring you into releasing unrealistic information about the progress of the OTHER DVR, but if you want I would be happy to review about 400 of your posts to find the post with the optimistic view of end of January 2006 for the timeframe of a majority of the bugs being fixed, but that really ISNT IMPORTANT.

I think it is great that they might have fixed the Series Link issue, which was something the DirecTV spokesperson said didnt exist in an interview right after the OTHER DVR was released.

I said earlier today in a post, that if I had bought one of those OTHER DVRs, I would likely be attempting to put on a happy face, if just to help support them so I could unload the box later.

But if you want to know the truth, it would not be in anyones interest for the OTHER DVR to fail in a major way, and I actually wish DirecTV the best of luck in completing the project and working through all the bugs, which is in the best interests of everyone.

Anyway, best of luck with your projects.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I was driving around with some friends today. We ended up behind a DirecTV van at a stoplight, and the girl in the back seat said "Hey look! See that DTV PLUS box? That is that new crappy DVR they are trying to sell to morons." Nobody in the car had ever discussed TiVo or D* or anything of the sort before that. These are not people who would ever join a forum like this. It doesn;t matter if they ever release an update that fixes the problems - the word is already out to "joe schmoe" that this new box is a POS.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

There is no "main job" anymore (side note, I am changing companies in a couple weeks)... Just doesn't work that way.

In the enviornment that exists today, and at most of the companies I spent the last month interviewing with... It is multiple hats.... PM, Architect, Q/A, Developer, Buisness Analysis, ect.... The "pure" coder is very rare...

I am a developer by education, training, and passion. Side effect of doing what I do, and doing it well... is that I was organized enough that I could PM a project.

Optomistic... have to be. If I was a pessimist, the client would be in a bad mood all the time.... Honestly... If you haven't worked with me, how can you say that I would say 90% done, when only 50% of the way there.... Doesn't work that way, can't work that way... Clients don't like that... You learn over time how to improve on your estimates, and how to accurately reflect progress... and it is rarely in % anymore... It is usually on the number of deliverables that have been completed (which doesn't translate into %)


Products like SQL Server 2005 are so massive and huge... they are "never" completed. They are retired before they are ever perfect... Why? 
You eventually reach a point, that is more effective to release a new version or product, instead of trying to get every last bug out of an older one.

I wish I had the ability to work on the team with the R15, in some fashion... It woudl be a blast.... A lot has changed since December 2005, when I made the claims about the January 2006 time frame. I have developed a better relationship with an internal source at DirecTV... I have a better understanding of their methods and ideas about the versions and the updates...

There is never going to be one MASSIVE update that fixes everything... Isn't practical, as it would take too long to test... So they have adopted the style of multiple smaller updates, shorter in length... as fixes and features are ready... they go out.. instead of waiting for a massive SP for the product.

It will reach a point one day that they stop updating the R15... and introduce a new model...

Optomistic about a unit that is just turning 5 months old... Most certainly...
As it's future is pretty bright, even though though the vast majority of users "here" on this forum board... don't see it... or don't want to see it...

I have purchased many of products (for far more money) that on a shelf or a box collecting dust. I have purchased my fair share of dogs.... I have ZERO intentions of unloading the R15... why.. I like what I see... and I like the ideas of what are to come using the R15.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> There is never going to be one MASSIVE update that fixes everything... Isn't practical, as it would take too long to test... So they have adopted the style of multiple smaller updates, shorter in length... as fixes and features are ready... they go out.. instead of waiting for a massive SP for the product.


In other words, they released beta software before it was ready for public use, and they are already using their customers as beta testers.

Sorry, not this customer. I'll be on a series 3 on cable before they get me to act like some Windows user. (using substandard junk)


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> There is no "main job" anymore (side note, I am changing companies in a couple weeks)... Just doesn't work that way.
> 
> In the enviornment that exists today, and at most of the companies I spent the last month interviewing with... It is multiple hats.... PM, Architect, Q/A, Developer, Buisness Analysis, ect.... The "pure" coder is very rare...
> 
> ...


I was a pure coder for only a short number of years while I was in college and working for the college as a programmer in Neat/3 (in levels 1, 2 and 3) which was a NCR specific language, and after college, I was never a pure programmer again until I worked for a FORTUNE 100 company (Georgia Pacific). Otherwise I have always had to do and learn everything, but for most of the 33 plus years I have been a Business Programmer Analyst.

Today and for the last 18 years I have been doing everything, networking, routers, switches, implementer, developer, programmer, Business Analyst, and just about everything else. I still work on mid-range machines, but I have been working on personal computers (or as some of my other mid-range associates call them PRETEND COMPUTERS) since 1983 almost fulltime and part-time all the way back to almost the beginning in 1975 with some early Altair 8800 machines repackaged as business machines running custom business software written using a mixture of UCSD Pascal and non-macro based assembler.

I have worked for small and big shops and no matter what, estimating development projects is a learned skill, an art, and a science, and gets somewhat easier if the technology doesn't change. But one thing has never changed; you really need to be a realist (a mixture of an optimist and a pessimist) to be a good pure Development Manager.

I was using the example of SQL Server 2005, because Microsoft after five plus years rushed the product to market without all of the planned and announced features because they where having a real hard time getting a handle on development cycle. It wasn't so much released early in the belief that SP1 work fix the product, but that they didn't want to call it SQL Server 2006 and live with all of the flack of taking six years to bring it to market and also they needed the revenue it would generate. So they made a decision in late 2004 to not finish the product and get it pushed out the door. It happens, but then again the Lead Development Manager should have got a handle on its feature set a few years earlier. But in an environment like Microsoft and with a product that is so important, the years and features just kept growing. But you did notice that about the same time Microsoft finally got a handle on SQL Server 2005, that they started stripping all of the additional features out of Vista.

Enough of that, anyway I just hope that DirecTV learns from this situation, and they should learn that they shouldn't ship an entertainment device with a number of significant bugs. A computer is one thing, but an entertainment device should work. Digital Video Recorders have been around almost seven years, so today they are expected to work when they are delivered. Although, I dont believe I will be one of the first to buy a Series 3 when it is released, I will likely take a wait and see approach. But then on the other hand, I will likely buy Windows Vista on release day, funny me.

I do agree with you, over the next few of years (not a couple of years) there will likely be very many changes taking place to the OTHER DVR, because Murdoch will have to compete against the biggest threat of all TRUE VOD. That is why Murdoch is planning on investing a billion dollars or more in Broadband over the next couple of years. The next couple of years should be a very interesting. I knew that Murdoch via satellite couldnt compete in a TRUE VOD MARKETPLACE and so did he, so his only option is to spend a few bucks to gain some bandwidth to stay competitive.

Anyway, best of luck in your new job!


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

JimSpence said:


> The biggest downside at the moment is the lack of dual buffers.


In my opinion, that honor goes to the ridiculous limit of 50 "Series Links" (Season Passes). That keeps me from even trying to use one. I almost never use dual buffers.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Arcady said:


> In other words, they released beta software before it was ready for public use, and they are already using their customers as beta testers.
> 
> Sorry, not this customer. I'll be on a series 3 on cable before they get me to act like some Windows user. (using substandard junk)


Last time I checked.... when TiVo was started out... they didn't start at version 6.2....

Using that logic, you wouldn't have been a TiVo customer either when it first release. I have NEVER heard of a product of this type and complexity, ever having a perfect version out of the box... Not even the Beloved TiVo.... They really didn't get "right" until v2 or argueable v3.

Very big difference from releasing "BETA" software and one that simply has bugs and issues.

TBeckecker....
We have hashed this all before, and we don't need to keep boring the other forum users....  (and thanks for the good wishes)


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## Snappa77 (Feb 14, 2004)

*As I write this my POS R15 is stuck on the find by title screen.

Who new doing a search for "Deal or no Deal" would lock up the unit.

I know it is a love it or hate it deal with most ppl. I am on the HATE IT side.

Keep in mind this is just my opinion but if you get a R15 unit without ever having a TiVo unit before then more than likely you will love it. There are alot of pros to this that cannot be dismissed.

But for those of us who have "upgraded" from a TiVo unit tend to be quite disappointed with the R15.

I personally think the R15 is Sofa King worthless I am thinking about banishing it to the guest bedroom.

(i can't really complain cuz I got it with a rebate so my out of pocket cost was $5 bucks for taxes).

My fiancee' described it best. "It is not that it is bad it is just uncomfortable".

I agree.

BTW: Does ANYONE know how to switch from one tuner to the other??
And yes, it is still frozen on the Find By Title screen.*

before the R15 we always talked about other DVR units in comparison to the D*TV units. What changed?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Snappa77 said:


> BTW: Does ANYONE know how to switch from one tuner to the other??
> And yes, it is still frozen on the Find By Title screen.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]
> 
> before the R15 we always talked about other DVR units in comparison to the D*TV units. What changed?


-) The unit current doesn't support dual live buffers, so there is no toggle between the two tuners... Unless you are recording something on the other, then you can access via the MyVod.

-) The Admins of this forum have requested that the R15 disucssion be taken to www.dbstalk.com


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Arcady said:


> In other words, they released beta software before it was ready for public use, and they are already using their customers as beta testers.


aka the "Dish Network" DVR rollout model.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Earl - my neighbor was sent an R15 and had it about a month. I got to use it a quite a bit and I hated the thing. He had never had a DVR before and he really didn't know any better, but I showed him my HR10-250 and let him use it a bit and in about a weeks time, we brought his R15 back and he now owns an HR10-250 as well.

The R15 is a piece of crap. I have no hopes that it will ever be anything other than a piece of crap. My core reasoning is that I am a software developer myself and I know firsthand how to develop good software. My team currently uses Agile and test driven software techniques to write even better software for an Occupational Health Software company up in Maine. I've worked for various software companies through the years before I moved to Maine including Borland, Tasking, Solution System's, MEDITECH, etc. (not in that order.) I've seen what works and what doesn't work (waterfall method, etc). I've seen software vendors who do not have a clue as to how to write good software. So, I have little faith that a company whose main business is not to write software is going to employ the resources to do it right. Newscorp has already demonstrated as such by releasing the R15 in the buggy state which they released it in. DISH Network has demonstrated this time and time again. As TIVO is a software development company, their software is released in a state which is much more solid and less bug ridden and that is just a fact.

Don't get me wrong Earl, I don't dislike you. However, pretty much every time I hear you speak now, all I hear is:

If you'd like to buy me flowers just go ahead now.
And, if you want to talk for hours just go ahead now.

You my friend are not only the eternal optimist, but the ultimate spin doctor. 

If you are concerned about the R15 being discussed here (and I'm aware it is against the rules), you shouldn't have encouraged us in the first place by replying to the thread when the R15 was first mentioned.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Are there going to be people who prefer one over the other? most definently.
> There are still people that prefer their VCR over a DVR..


This is an argument for an R15?

The above list doesn't impress me. Get it working dependably, make sure I don't lose functionality from my TiVo (I use dual buffers like an artist) and then maybe. Maybe. (But then again, once I break from my TiVo, I don't know what stops me from looking at cable.)

No matter if they make it work or not, DTV may have made a big mistake. Just when DVRs were taking off, they didn't take the gold standard (and the Kleenex of DVRs) and make it better, they stepped over a year backward.


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## SeattleCarl (Nov 11, 2005)

BillyT2002 said:


> So, I have little faith that a company whose main business is not to write software is going to employ the resources to do it right.


I have to agree with this statement. I can think of several great examples from personal experience.

I truly hope that is not the case for DirecTV and the R15. I like the unit, and hope to see it's software ills fixed. But I'm not real sure that can happen by patching and band aiding what they have started with. Time will tell.

Carl


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Last time I checked.... when TiVo was started out... they didn't start at version 6.2....
> 
> Using that logic, you wouldn't have been a TiVo customer either when it first release. I have NEVER heard of a product of this type and complexity, ever having a perfect version out of the box... Not even the Beloved TiVo.... They really didn't get "right" until v2 or argueable v3.


This argument is not really valid. Just because it is new, doesn't mean it has to suck. The fact is, TiVo is at version 6.2 and this new thing is at version 0.01 in comparison. Why should I use some sub-standard thing when a perfectly good box is available?

It's like going back in time 11 years. "Windows 95 = Macintosh 87" is a slogan that comes to mind.


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## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> The "pure" coder is very rare...


No they're not. Its just that they all live in India and make $7.50/hour even though they have a masters degree.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

bengalfreak said:


> No they're not. Its just that they all live in India and make $7.50/hour even though they have a masters degree.


Actually, pure coders still exist in large companies in the US, large software companies, and in highly specialized programming environments worldwide including the US. I guess your prospective is based upon your actual experience, or what I like to call a *Frame of Reference*.

You are right there are programmers (pure coders) in foreign countries that make even less than the lowest minimum wage jobs in the US and many have advanced degrees, but _usually_ those degrees are from their country.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Concerned about discussing the R15 here? Hardly... It is the MOD's rules...

The reason I keep recommending people to go to www.dbstalk.com is 
1) There is much more of a blanced discussion of the unit there, as that is where it was sent to... 
2) The Mods requested it.

I have no problem discussing it.. Hence why I reply here.

As for me being an optomist... It is my opinion... bottom line. I personally feel the unit will get better, and will be *at* or exceed the current DTiVo version.... And "relatively" soon.

Billy: I am glad that you developed your opinion regarding the unit with the remote in your hand.... that is all I ask of people... I don't care if you are pro or con on the unit.... that isn't of importance to me... I just that you devise your own opinion on it, and not base it off the "typed" word of others....

And that is the main reason why you see my posts the way they are.... Around here... I am always trying to provide the "other" (which is the positive) side of the R15 story... Over at www.dbstalk.com you will see my post in a different light... (and you will see them here)... I have no problems pointing out the "dark" side of the unit, I just try to make sure I give the "light" sight of the unit it's time of day.

Note my post from above:


ebonovic said:


> -) The unit current doesn't support dual live buffers, so there is no toggle between the two tuners... Unless you are recording something on the other, then you can access via the MyVod.


I didn't sugar coat it... just flat out came out with the facts on the unit... which most of the time is what I base my posts off... the actually hands on facts of the unit, and those derived from the user base over at www.dbstalk.com

....

Using a sub-standard vs good box (because of my 6.2 version statement).
That wasn't the intent of the statmenet. I am not telling you to go and get an R15 because is substandard and it will get better...

I am saying that TiVo didn't start perfect, and it got better.... So why shouldn't the same be expeceted for the R15.

Not that I don't want to continue my discussion on "pure" coding, it is for another thread... another day.
.


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

I never had trouble with my DirecTiVo's like people are having with the R15. NDS makes the software for these, obviously not as good as TiVo. Worse still is DirecTV has experience with NDS in the UK were they still supply a buggy Sky+ box after many years of development. They must be insane to bring NDS to the US where there already had something better and 2.8 million of them. 

I don't know how DirecTV expects to keep DirecTiVo customers happy with a R15 replacement that's freezing, has to be reset, unplugged, records repeats, has limits, no 30 second skip, no dual live buffer and no search and record functionality as advanced as a TiVo etc, etc, etc. They are going to fix this they say?. When if ever? I think any company that releases a product as poorly ready for the consumer as the R15 is can't trusted to do anything right by it's customers.

So far as I can tell, the R15 has caller ID and mix channels and expects to add new features of unknown benefit. What am I missing? Isn't the primary job of a DVR to record programs? Is this R15 worth a 2 year commitment? I'm aggravated DirecTV didn't just keep TiVo and continue to add new TiVo features way more advanced than other DVR's that are right now working on the TiVo stand alone DVR's.

I read the complaints about the R15 on DirecTV's own forum and I cringe at what these poor customers could have had if they had only known not all DVR's are created equal. DVR's will not be a commodity for long. As more and more people experience DVR's for the first time, the market is going to open up for DVR's that work more reliably and have features that people will better understand how they would benefit from them. 

My commitment will be up soon with DirecTV. I won't do anything that would increase that commitment and keep my options open for a TiVo first solution.


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

Doesn't the average person just return something that doesn't work or call the company for satisfaction? Do they go to forums like ours in any great numbers? These forums, ours and DBSTalk are basically fanclubs, forums for enthusiasts that want to share that enthusiasm. We definitely have a slanted view towards a particular product. It must be an awful headache for anyone with no DVR experience trying to figure out what DVR works best.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

mtchamp said:


> Doesn't the average person just return something that doesn't work or call the company for satisfaction? Do they go to forums like ours in any great numbers? These forums, ours and DBSTalk are basically fanclubs, forums for enthusiasts that want to share that enthusiasm. We definitely have a slanted view towards a particular product. It must be an awful headache for anyone with no DVR experience trying to figure out what DVR works best.


I would agree to that.
And I would have to say that we are a smaller percentage of the user base, and we are on the far right of the "bell" curve for the product.

But I would have to add, that a growing number of users go to "forums" to solve issues... Especially with the help of google and other search engins.

As my normal example.... When was the last time any of logged into our "Microwaves" support forums just to post everything is okey dokey fine with it


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

TIVO software got better with time because TIVO is as much of a software development company as it is a hardware developer. In the future it seems, if TIVO survives, TIVO will be even more of a software development company than it is one. It was always in TIVOs best interest to release the best software that they could write to run their DVR product(s). Their original competition was ReplayTV who also set a pretty high standard. The TIVO software was never released in a bug ridden state which effected any of the major functionality (season passes, live buffers, etc). The major functionality always worked in most (I won't say all as I'm not completely sure) new releases of the TIVO software. (I don't personally recall ever having any real problems with any new TIVO update and I have been a customer since shortly after the TIVO series one was released.)

DirecTV (nor DISH Network or any of the cable companies for that matter) are not first and foremost software development companies. They will never invest the resources needed to write good software and do it right the first time. They have already proven that they are not committed to writing good software because they were willing to release the software for their R15 DVR in the bug ridden state in which they released it instead of waiting until they worked out most of the problems before releasing it.

My biggest problem with these companies whose main focus is not on software development is as such:

They largely use the waterfall approach to software development which means that they write software and then deal with the bugs later. The problem is that the waterfall approach is unreliable at best, unless you have very capable software developers to begin with and they are meticulous and well organized in writing their bits of code. The fallout of writing software using the waterfall method is releasing software with a lot of bugs or holding back the releases of your software (and hence DVR product(s)) until you deal with those bugs. The problem with debugging software using the waterfall method is that often a bug is fixed and the fix inadvertantly causes other bugs in the software. At best to successfully develop good software using the waterfall method, you need a very large QA and testing department which is very meticulous and good at what they do. You also need very capable software developers to start with and a lot of money to pay everyone. Most software is developed using the waterfall method, and whether or not a company is willing to invest a large amount of resources towards software development and testing largely defines whether this method is successful for them in terms of releasing good software.

The Agile and test driven development model is far better as Agile software development principles encourage you to employ the least effort possible to get the best result in developing software (lending itself to minimalism), and the developer will create acceptance tests (to test the UI) and unit tests (to test the core engine functionality) for a software application before any code for the application itself is written. This results in software which is well tested by the developer before it ever gets to a QA or testing person for further testing. The end result is a higher quality of software application. Ultimately you can write better software using far less resources by adopting this approach to software development.


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## tigersfanjj (Oct 23, 2005)

mtchamp said:


> I don't know how DirecTV expects to keep DirecTiVo customers happy with a R15 replacement that's freezing, has to be reset, unplugged, records repeats...


I got my R15 on the day that D* started shipping them to my company and have only had to reset my unit once.

I got my R10 about 3 months prior to that. With my R10, I had to replace the hard drive on one occasion and the power supply on another. I've also had to reset it about 3 or 4 times.

So the R15 has been much more reliable for me personally.

Is the R15 perfect? No, but neither is the R10.

I'm just trying to say that you can't really form an opinion about a product by reading what a small percentage of people have posted anonymously on an internet message board (as it seems a lot here have).



TonyD79 said:


> No matter if they make it work or not, DTV may have made a big mistake.


I don't think it is that big of a mistake. Most of their customers (I'd say probably 95% or more) are there for D*. Not Tivo. The money D* will make from using their own service will more than make up for the minor losses in revenue from people jumping ship because of the switch.


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

tigersfanjj said:


> I got my R15 on the day that D* started shipping them to my company and have only had to reset my unit once.
> 
> I got my R10 about 3 months prior to that. With my R10, I had to replace the hard drive on one occasion and the power supply on another. I've also had to reset it about 3 or 4 times.
> 
> ...


From a guy that has used both, on a scale of 10.
TiVo 9
Other DVR 6

It is waaaaay to early to jump to conclusions what that other one will be like in a few years once they updated it about 30 or so times.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

It's not way to early to jump to conclusions. D* released their supposedly flagship product with POS software. They've already set a precedent here. They are dealing with issues as they arise which is the waterfall approach to software development which doesn't work without a lot of resources. As their not primarily a software company, they will never commit the resources to it that it needs. Most likely they will not change to an alternate software development model to better use the resources which they have.

So, therefore I state with utmost assurance that they will never provide a DVR that will satisfy all of us.


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## tigersfanjj (Oct 23, 2005)

BillyT2002 said:


> So, therefore I state with utmost assurance that they will never provide a DVR that will satisfy all of us.


And you think Tivo or anyone else will?

There is no way it will ever happen.


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## psweig (Oct 27, 2002)

I am a retired developer (I'm really old) and have had an HDVR2 since it came out, 5 or 6 years ago? Two weeks ago I was ready to trash my R15, but I stuck with it. I can't help but look back to the Horrific audio problems of the HDVR2, which were eventually straightened out. There are thousands of e-mails about this. The freezing of the R15, which is my major problem, is probably due to working in the background but not notifying the user, which notification would calm down a lot of people. Put it all in a broader context, people.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

tigersfanjj said:


> I got my R15 on the day that D* started shipping them to my company and have only had to reset my unit once.
> 
> I got my R10 about 3 months prior to that. With my R10, I had to replace the hard drive on one occasion and the power supply on another. I've also had to reset it about 3 or 4 times.
> 
> ...


If I read your post correctly, what you believe is based upon your own experience, which is all that anyone could expect. You had problems with a defective R10 (I would say that DirecTV had the R10 built very cheaply and used cheap parts suppliers) than you had with the OTHER DVR.

And there are people like me and I say I must be living right, because I have six TiVos, one of which is a SA TiVo that will be six years old in one month and had an additional hard drive added to it when it was two months old, and has been running continuously for all of these years and has not has a single failure. The same goes for the three DirecTiVo HDVR2s, which will be three years old this year and two have all original parts and the third has an upgraded hard drive and none of these have had a single failure. And then there are the two brand new, two months old DirecTiVo SD-DVR80s and of course no failure in either of those machines.

In total I have six TiVos all of which have been hacked and two that have been upgraded, and five are still running the original OEM hard drives and the one original OEM hard drive that has been pulled still works perfect and has been hacked.

Have there been software problems with the TiVos, yes, but all have been very minor and the only one that actually affected me was the Closed Caption problem on the DirecTiVo HDVR2s, but that was fixed within a few months.

The only other problems that I have had with the TiVos from time to time appear to be Guide Data problems and nothing more.

I have to say that it sours you when you have an entertainment device that fails. I have a Sony Dream System (DVD player with a combination 5.1 Surround Sound stereo), and the DVD player lasted less than a year, and when I sent it back to Sony for repair they didnt fix a secondary minor problem that had been there since the machine was brand new. What is interesting is that almost all of my devices are Sony (except for the five DirecTiVos) and have been for more than 15 years, but this one failure soured me, mainly because I had such good luck with Sony devices. I have had only one failure in just one product in the last 15 years, other than the usual TV or VCR failures.


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## tigersfanjj (Oct 23, 2005)

tbeckner, sorry if I was sounding like I was saying the R10 was a POS. I'm really happy with both of the DVR's that I currently own. I feel that both the R10 and the R15 have strengths and weaknesses compared to the other.

I know it's still too early to fully tell. But judging by the number of d.o.a. units that I used to get as compared to now, it seems that the R15 is built a lot better on the hardware side. They just need to get fully caught up with the software.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

tigersfanjj said:


> tbeckner, sorry if I was sounding like I was saying the R10 was a POS. I'm really happy with both of the DVR's that I currently own. I feel that both the R10 and the R15 have strengths and weaknesses compared to the other.


Not to worry, I understood how you felt, remember my Sony example. In the case of the TiVos that I have owned, I would guess that I have been lucky.

Let us all hope that DirecTV gets the software squared away.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

We can hope, but the concrete rationalist in me has no faith. Why don't we hope that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are real while we're at it. Or let's just hope that Jesus really does return soon and not in another few thousand years.


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

I don't own an R15, but there is very very little from what I've read about it to want me to move from my DTiVo's to one.

Actually the only thing that I have read that even slightly interests me is the enhanced conflict resolution.

What I find truly amusing is how some people spin things though.

------------------------------------------------------

It's awesome that you can get a single line guide display while watching your TV.

It's great to have the picture in the screen so you can watch and hear your program while futzing around with the menu's.

Who needs double buffers because with a DVR you're not supposed to be watching live TV anyway.

---------------------------------------------------

If you're not supposed to be watching live TV then you don't need the other things as well.

I've been stretching to find a proper analogy to compare what I've read about the R15 compared to a DTiVo. I think I found one.

Say you go out and buy a new car. You take it out for a test drive and you check how smooth it handles, how comfortable the seats are. You check all the extras out.

You don't even stop to consider, does it have brakes, does the transmission have forward and reverse gears, can you turn corners when you need to, does it suddenly stall out at random intervals while driving at highway speeds?

A new product has to be equal to or better than existing products in features and price. Currently from what I've read, the R15 doesn't fit the bill. Someday it may be there. But for now it doesn't.


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

SpacemanSpiff said:


> I don't own an R15, but there is very very little from what I've read about it to want me to move from my DTiVo's to one.
> 
> What I find truly amusing is how some people spin things though.
> 
> ...


Only an idiot would not want dual buffers. Where did that statement come from...


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

That's a paraphrase of statements I've read both here (when the R15 is in the conversation) and from dbstalk.com.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

This is second in one user's list of "Features You do not want The R15 to ever get ?":

"Next would be dual buffers or really anything to do with them. I have a DVR and a large point of a dual tuner DVR if you ask me is your not supposed to watch so much live TV that a buffer really matters at all. Take it/them out for all I care and concentrate on other more important things like stability."


Of course, third is "anything to do with TiVo"


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

ping said:


> This is second in one user's list of "Features You do not want The R15 to ever get ?":
> 
> "Next would be dual buffers or really anything to do with them. I have a DVR and a large point of a dual tuner DVR if you ask me is your not supposed to watch so much live TV that a buffer really matters at all. Take it/them out for all I care and concentrate on other more important things like stability."
> 
> Of course, third is "anything to do with TiVo"


Oh, that guy. I ignore his comments -- do note that he uses a R10 since he does not like "babysitting" the other DVR...


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## john-duncan-yoyo (Oct 13, 2004)

ping said:


> This is second in one user's list of "Features You do not want The R15 to ever get ?":
> 
> "Next would be dual buffers or really anything to do with them. I have a DVR and a large point of a dual tuner DVR if you ask me is your not supposed to watch so much live TV that a buffer really matters at all. Take it/them out for all I care and concentrate on other more important things like stability."


Somebody described the R15 as a tuner with a DVR attached incase you need it while a DTivo is a DVR with a tuner attached becasue it needs to get shows from some where.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

john-duncan-yoyo said:


> Somebody described the R15 as a tuner with a DVR attached incase you need it while a DTivo is a DVR with a tuner attached becasue it needs to get shows from some where.


Yep, probably the architect who decided "50 Series Links should be enough for anyone"


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

I think Earl is about the only true TiVo person in this thread or maybe even forum that has given the R-15 an honest and fair chance. Just look back at all his reviews and posts here over the years and years , he is hardcore TiVo but he has given the R-15 a chance. The first to review and post about a few different DirecTiVos. Years ago I bought my R-10 simply on his review right here in this forum.

Others just seem to parrot old information, cant manage to write a post without mild profanity sarcasm or putdowns and just pick and choose the worst bits to use glossing over the good things.

My Philips 704 and R-10 still cant close a folder when its empty and tell me its empty and to close it after all these updates but you dont see me rehashing it all over.


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

morgantown said:


> Only an idiot would not want dual buffers. Where did that statement come from...


Agreed!
No dual buffers it's of no use to me except a door stop.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Rkkeller said:


> I think Earl is about the only true TiVo person in this thread or maybe even forum that has given the R-15 an honest and fair chance. Just look back at all his reviews and posts here over the years and years , he is hardcore TiVo but he has given the R-15 a chance.


I agree that some people gave Earl a hard time this last weekend. I only give Earl a hard time when he posts information that conflicts with his previous posts and because he really appears to be such an eternal optimist. Earl is a very nice guy and he posts very useful information. I believe this forum should be happy that he is here. And I know that it is hard for him not to post what he views as realistic views.


Rkkeller said:


> My Philips 704 and R-10 still cant close a folder when its empty and tell me its empty and to close it after all these updates but you dont see me rehashing it all over.


If you are talking about the way the GUI handles a folder that becomes empty when the last item is deleted in the "Now Playing List", then I believe I agree with you that they should just return you to the "Now Playing List". But since I don't have a Series 2 SA TiVo to check to see if they have changed it in a 7.X version, and the DirecTiVos just got that feature with 6.2 and have not and will likely never recieve an update, then we are going to have to live with it on our 6.2 DirecTiVos because DirecTV is likely not going to update our machines.

In this case if TiVo has changed the way they handle that situation, then blame DirecTV for not allowing the update. If TiVo hasn't changed the way they handle it, then maybe they should make the change.


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

Since converting to Series 2 units and MRVing I have not had occasion to use the dual buffers. Always something recorded to watch. That was not true on the Series 1 units when all the recorded programs had been watched and some mind numbing was in order. No commercials with dual buffers. Watch a show til commercial time. pause, switch to other show, unpause, skip through commercials, watch til commercials arrive again, pause, switch. You get the idea if you have a TiVo. 

Now when recordings have all been watched on one TiVo, we just navigate to another remote TiVo and start watching those shows. 

Managing all the deletes and Season Passes, etc from the computer is so much easier than using the remote. 

When will the New DVR have MRV? Desktop management?


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## tigersfanjj (Oct 23, 2005)

SpacemanSpiff said:


> That's a paraphrase of statements I've read both here (when the R15 is in the conversation) and from dbstalk.com.


Not saying it's not there (because I'm sure someone has posted it), but I haven't seen the "you shouldn't be watching live tv" posted about the dual live buffers on the R15.

However, I did receive that response a while ago (before I got my R15) when I mentioned that it would be a nice feature to have the DTivo autotune to a program without starting a recording of the episode. So I guess that one goes to posts about both units.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

Isn't that that instruction that Captain Picard sent to the Borg to cause them to overload and blow-up? 

The answer to your search is 'Yes'! The poor R15 was trying to return everything in the guide as the answer!



> As I write this my POS R15 is stuck on the find by title screen.
> 
> Who new doing a search for "Deal or no Deal" would lock up the unit.


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

I can't help but chuckle when I think that we are all here arguing over a device so that we can WATCH MORE TV. Probably one of the worst inventions to date for a society that 60+% of its population are overweight and obese. Its not like were trying to feed the poor or find the cure for disease.


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

Rkkeller said:


> I can't help but chuckle when I think that we are all here arguing over a device so that we can WATCH MORE TV. Probably one of the worst inventions.


Who wants to take this one?


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 21, 2006)

If we aren't evolving toward a life with more pleasure and less work - what's the point?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Rkkeller said:


> I can't help but chuckle when I think that we are all here arguing over a device so that we can WATCH MORE TV. Probably one of the worst inventions to date for a society that 60+% of its population are overweight and obese. Its not like were trying to feed the poor or find the cure for disease.


Sure... I will 

I watch MORE TV, in LESS TIME with a DVR.... 
And actually... Now that I can DVR some of the FIT channel programs in the exercise room... I actually exercise MORE, because of this gadget that lets me watch more TV... 

But I do agree... there are FAR more important things in this world, then if my DVR misses a recording, or doesn't have x,y,z feature..... but it is still fun to argue..
Good for the heart and the mind...


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> But I do agree... there are FAR more important things in this world, then if my DVR misses a recording


There is nothing more important if my DVR misses the latest new episode of Lost, BSG, West Wing or Grey's Anatomy.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Earl - the glass is half empty... just admit it man. 

Spaceman Spiff - if my TIVO missed anything and I mean anything I haven't already seen on SciFi Friday and I find myself sitting in front of the red button which launches nuclear annhiliation on the entire world, then I'm pushing it man. That's how mad I'll be. Luckily for you all, I don't sit anywhere near that button and TIVO has pretty much a perfect track record in that regard for me.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Rkkeller said:


> I can't help but chuckle when I think that we are all here arguing over a device so that we can WATCH MORE TV. Probably one of the worst inventions to date for a society that 60+% of its population are overweight and obese. Its not like were trying to feed the poor or find the cure for disease.


I actually watch less TV, and I no longer ZONE OUT in front the live TV and I spend less time watching what I want to watch, like:

No more 3 1/2 hour NFL Football games, now only 1 to 1 1/2 hour games.
No more 4 to 5 hour NASCAR races, now they are more likely 2 to 2 1/2 hours, and I skip most of the pre-race junk and all of the dead time, like 2 hours of watching cars go around in circles and no lead changes, and all of the commercials.

And maybe the biggest bonus of all, I watch the programs when I have the time available. If I want to do something else like exercising, traveling, internet, I can do that activity without having to miss what small amount of good entertainment that can be found on TV today.

For the younger people, its hours and hours of COMPUTER and VIDEO games that have caused a major problem, not so much TV. Actually TV watching with a DVR is a life improver and allows both the enjoyment of TV and life's other many varied activities.


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