# Is the HR20 an inferior product



## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

For purposes of this poll, please only answer IF you have owned and used both the HR10-250 (original TiVo based HD DVR) and an HR20-xxx receiver (any sub model of the HR20) for more than one week each.

I'm not looking for answers from people that used one or the other for only a day or two, I'm looking for answers from people that have used both enough to HONESTLY answer as to whether or not they can truly say that they believe that the HR20 is an inferior product.

Further, I'm gonna ask that when you choose your answer you don't simply choose 'Yes, it's inferior' just because it's not TiVo based. Answering that it's inferior because it's not TiVo doesn't address whether the units work as DVRs and do the jobs they were intended to do. Such answers merely inject opinions into the poll and that isn't what the poll is trying to find.

The question is if you really consider the HR20 an inferior machine, most especially when compared to the HR10 units.

If I can set the options correctly, this will be a PUBLIC POLL so haters that have never used one or the other of the two choices will be seen.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

2:1 so far not inferior. Gee, go figure. 

Hey RS4, you better round up your lemming buddies and vote. Oh wait, it's only for people who actually used both.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Mark Lopez said:


> 2:1 so far not inferior. Gee, go figure.
> 
> Hey RS4, you better round up your lemming buddies and vote. Oh wait, it's only for people who actually used both.




Since RS4 has been so big on using poll's lately, I figured this one might, just might help keep him from tossing around words like 'inferior'.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

So a quarter of your customers consider your new product clearly inferior to your old product and that's something to crow about? And it's so cute when you say stuff like "online booking" and "on demand" like it's something new. I love you guys. Never change, ok?


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## pmturcotte (May 7, 2001)

nrc said:


> So a quarter of your customers consider your new product clearly inferior to your old product and that's something to crow about?


Exactly.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

nrc said:


> So a quarter of your customers consider your new product clearly inferior to your old product and that's something to crow about?


It's closer to a third right now.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

nrc said:


> So a quarter of your customers consider your new product clearly inferior to your old product and that's something to crow about? And it's so cute when you say stuff like "online booking" and "on demand" like it's something new. I love you guys. Never change, ok?


Yes, and what valuable information to have posted on a *TiVo* forum.

I guess it's astroturfing at its finest when it is clear that when folks think "DVR", they think "TiVo" first. Got to be in front of those eyeballs, eh?

Now this reminds me, I'm dying to know how many Chevy owners prefer Fords. 

BTW, I could not vote. I've never had an HR20. Maybe if DTV offered a 30 day test drive before the 2yr commitment went into effect.... That in itself is inferior to me.

They really should start a forum for you DTV/HR20 folks.


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## joelq (Oct 9, 2006)

My vote: No, it isn't. Different yes, but not inferior.

I have:
HR20 in the Family Room
HR10-250 in the Master Bedroom
SIR-4040 (SD DirecTivo) in the Game Room
H20 in the Media Room


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Nice to see the terms like Astroturfing tossed back around again. You TiVo brown-nosers just never change (don't you love having yourself called names??)

Except, uh, I have TiVo's in my house, still use 'em, still like to use 'em, and have family that still love 'em, and uh, one more thing: I am a TiVo stockholder and have absolutely *zero* financial interest in DirecTV except as a customer that doesn't want to pay a fortune each month to watch TV.

Still want to call myself or others shills? Then go for it to your hearts content, but be sure to keep checking your own noses for the source of the stink you try to associate with the DirecTV hardware.

--

With that all out of the way, it is very interesting that here in '*TiVo's backyard*' that honest assessments -- from people that have used both machines -- the answers are still overwhelmingly telling *everyone* that the machines are really not that much different, and that the HR20 isn't -- as some brown-nosers have said 'an inferior product'.

Same question is asked over at http://www.dbstalk.com (sister site to this one by the way....) with answers overwhelmingly (approx. 80% vs. 20%) saying that the HR20 isn't an inferior product.

Now, as to the legitimate concern that DirecTV doesn't offer customers a chance to avoid the commitment and doesn't offer a test drive for the HR20, I agree completely with that point. DirecTV *should* offer a 'test drive' period -- personally I'd like to see it at 60 days, just to be giving customers plenty of time to test drive the box fully.

Perhaps making that suggestion via e-mail and U.S. mail to DirecTV will help.

Certainly taking a few seconds to suggest the same thing over on DBSTalk won't hurt as DirecTV does pay attention to feedback via those forums.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Like a lot of polls, this one is flawed - If you were serious about this, you would have offered a selection or two for those of us who have decided not get involved with the HR20. After all, here we are on a Tivo forum, so I would guess a lot of us have decided to opt out for now. 

Like many folks, I would have loved to try one at home before deciding. However, it's clear that DirecTV doesn't have enough confidence in their product to allow that. At the same time, I have done enough research and seen enough demos to know I wouldn't like the box.

But of course you really aren't interested in what Tivo users think, you're only promoting a second-rated box from a company that used to be innovative.


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## pmturcotte (May 7, 2001)

The interesting thing for me in talking to the three HR20 owners I know is that the two people who like it and I assume would fall into the "satisfied" category never owned a Tivo or any other DVR - so they have nothing to compare it to. 

Anyway to each his own. This is a debate that will go on forever with no end.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I bought 2 HR10's when they were first released. I've owned 3 HR20's for 2-3 months now. I'm not sure it is fair to call it inferior. But it is not as polished a product. It does every thing I need it to do, just not as smoothly as the HR10 did. I could be happy living with either one if they both got the new HD channels.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

RS4 said:


> Like a lot of polls, this one is flawed - If you were serious about this, you would have offered a selection or two for those of us who have decided not get involved with the HR20. After all, here we are on a Tivo forum, so I would guess a lot of us have decided to opt out for now.
> 
> Like many folks, I would have loved to try one at home before deciding. However, it's clear that DirecTV doesn't have enough confidence in their product to allow that. At the same time, I have done enough research and seen enough demos to know I wouldn't like the box.
> 
> But of course you really aren't interested in what Tivo users think, you're only promoting a second-rated box from a company that used to be innovative.


You are welcome to speak up just as you have Ronald, after all, you've been the one pointing to polls lately and using words like 'inferior'.

Perhaps you'll now have to find some new words and some new polls that are not so flawed and aren't based on hypothetical choices that aren't possible.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bdowell said:


> With that all out of the way, it is very interesting that here in '*TiVo's backyard*' that honest assessments -- from people that have used both machines -- the answers are still overwhelmingly telling *everyone* that the machines are really not that much different, and that the HR20 isn't -- as some brown-nosers have said 'an inferior product'.


And again, how do you manage to build a brand new product with new capabilities while having full control over the features and improvements on your competitor's box and still end up with a quarter of the population considering your box inferior. It's like cheating on a test and still only managing a 'C'.

DirecTV subscribers have pretty much accepted that they just have to take whatever DTV is giving and live with it. You don't hear the outcry over leased boxes or commitments that went up when those policies changed. The same is true of DVRs. Many DTV subscribers might prefer to have a TiVo with the latest features (different question than your poll) but they accept what DTV is offering because they're committed to DirecTV and they have no choice.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

nrc said:


> And again, how do you manage to build a brand new product with new capabilities while having full control over the features and improvements on your competitor's box and still end up with a quarter of the population considering your box inferior. It's like cheating on a test and still only managing a 'C'.


 :up: :up: :up:

Be careful, that's pure lemming logic.


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## yoV6cam (Dec 28, 2001)

i just wish it had dual tuners


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

yoV6cam said:


> i just wish it had dual tuners


You mean dual buffers.... it has dual tuners


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

RS4 said:


> Like a lot of polls, this one is flawed - If you were serious about this, you would have offered a selection or two for those of us who have decided not get involved with the HR20. After all, here we are on a Tivo forum, so I would guess a lot of us have decided to opt out for now.
> 
> *Like many folks, I would have loved to try one at home before deciding. However, it's clear that DirecTV doesn't have enough confidence in their product to allow that. At the same time, I have done enough research and seen enough demos to know I wouldn't like the box.*
> 
> But of course you really aren't interested in what Tivo users think, you're only promoting a second-rated box from a company that used to be innovative.


Time to follow-up on this a bit...

Note bold face area above.

Hmm, it strikes me, now that I remember it, that when I bought, yes that is right, bought, an HR10-250 unit at a cost of several hundred dollars, that I wasn't offered the opportunity to try before I bought it either. As soon as I accepted delivery of that box, I was on the hook for 2 years of commitment to minimal programming from DirecTV.

Why did TiVo not have confidence enough in the product to *make* DirecTV offer a trial period for people that paid so much for their HR10s????

This is just more bogus argument really. I said above that offering a trial period would be a good thing, but in reality, as someone has mentioned either here, or at DBSTalk.com, people that accept an HR20 from DirecTV and get hooked for the commitment can return the box if they feel it just won't work for them. They will be on the hook for a minimal programming level that they can still meet by using non-DVR receivers. Not the best answer, but given how much it costs DirecTV to get a household MPEG4 ready (new switch and new dish in most cases), I don't blame DirecTV for not wanting to just give the equipment, time and labor away.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

bdowell,

I really like how you set up this poll. I did not reply because I have not spent a week with the HR10 and the HR20. But that is the only way that you could really compare the products.

This is exactly the reason people want to try before they buy. Well with satellite, cable, etc., that is just not possible. But the point is valid. You really can't make a determination about a product unless you have really had a chance to use it.

The only people in a position to compare the HR10 to the HR20 are those that have actually spent time really using both.

So far the results hold firm. In the TiVo forum, users say by a factor of almost 3 to 1 that the HR20 is not inferior to the HR10.

In the concurent poll in the HR20 forum, it is over 5 to 1 that the HR20 is not inferior to the HR10.

Thank you for coming up with such a good poll!

- Craig


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

milominderbinder said:


> The only people in a position to compare the HR10 to the HR20 are those that have actually spent time really using both.


That was part of the point here. Some people have bashed, and continued to bash, the HR20 without ever using it. While it would be nice to have an opportunity to try the box without incurring the two-year commitment, I understand why it's there -- it does cost DirecTV to get these boxes set up for customers. They are paying to ship the boxes out; paying for installers to come out, setup the new dish, setup the switch, setup the receiver, upgrade it to the latest national release, demonstrate it to the customer, etc. At a minimum, there's probably something on the order for $50 just for labor, and about $50 - $150 worth of parts (dish and switch) that are installed and not so easily removed if a customer backs out.

It is not at all comparable to TiVo being able to offer a trial period on their *STAND ALONE* boxes because there are other items involved rather than simply sending out a box that a customer self-installs and is easily able to disconnect, box it back up, ship it back and not lose anything other shipping costs on.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

nrc said:


> So a quarter of your customers consider your new product clearly inferior to your old product and that's something to crow about?


Don't you mean a quarter of your customers on a TiVO forum consider your product inferior to a TiVO? Personally I am shocked that more people don't consider it inferior especially on this website.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

bigpuma said:


> nrc said:
> 
> 
> > So a quarter of your customers consider your new product clearly inferior to your old product and that's something to crow about?
> ...


Well, when you see the results from the same question asked at DBSTalk, the numbers are much more in favor of the HR20, but yes, that would be a site where there is much less brand loyalty to TiVo.

I'm glad to see that people that have tried both and used both for more than a quick period of time are honest enough to say (in answering the poll here) that the HR20 isn't an inferior product.

Note that doesn't mean that the HR20 is superior to the HR10 though, for the most part it means that the boxes are fairly equal in performing for their designed tasks, which is what several *open minded* individuals have tried to say here for quite a while. Sadly those open minded individuals are called shills for DirecTV in many cases and to me that's just plain wrong.

If some of the TiVo fans would stop flingin' pooh at the HR20, perhaps there would NOT seem to be a need to have counterpoints made to many of the claims they make and perhaps customers could simply accept the 'for more information and discussion about the HR20 see the forums at http://www.dbstalk.com' rather than getting not just obviously biased answers, but biased answers filled with hate and loathing for all things not TiVo.

Like I have said, some TiVo fans seem to believe they are smelling stink from the HR20 and DirecTV and they really should be checking for the brown stuff at the end of their noses that is clouding their judgement and objectivity. Approach the boxes (either of them, the HR10 or the HR20) with an open mind and you find that both do work as DVRs.

Heck, approach Windows Media Center Edition the same way and you realize it too functions as a DVR and does what it is supposed to do. But of course discussing that software will bring down the hatred of Microsoft and Billy G, so lets not go there


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

The lack of rational, open-minded thinking in this forum is astonishing. I'll never quite understand the stance of folks like RS4 - so adamant that the product is 'second-rate' when he's never even used it! That would be like me making a statement that Apple computers are inferior to PCs. I haven't used an Apple computer since I was in grade school so I hardly think I'm in any position to judge.

In my case, I've used both. I had 3 HR10's replaced with HR20's about 3 months ago. In my somewhat educated opinion, the HR20 is at least as good, perhaps better, than the HR10. But that's just me. I have had one, yes a single, missed recording in the 3 months of using the HR20. My HR10s missed recordings every week!

The HR20 is just different. People here are fanatical about the TiVo brand and can't seem to be incapable of admitting that another product may actually be on par with their beloved little friend.

To each his own, I guess, but I'm starting to see why rational folks like ebonovich have moved on to other sites where intelligent conversation can occur rather than the 'my DVR is betther than your DVR' childish games.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bigpuma said:


> Don't you mean a quarter of your customers on a TiVO forum consider your product inferior to a TiVO? Personally I am shocked that more people don't consider it inferior especially on this website.


Yes, it is sort of like asking Republicans if they prefer a Democrat....


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

bigpuma said:


> Don't you mean a quarter of your customers on a TiVO forum consider your product inferior to a TiVO? Personally I am shocked that more people don't consider it inferior especially on this website.


Rather, maybe it's an indication of how many folks with DirecTV/TiVo units that have chosen NOT to try the HR20. I mean, the poll was clear that you had to have tried both. Only 64 votes so far. How many HR10-250 users post here? Perhaps many are excluded from voting because they have not tried the HR20. And they shouldn't vote in this poll of course.

So out of a sample of around 65 votes, you have a 76% chance of thinking the HR20 is not inferior to the TiVo. Rather small sample size, don't you think?

Maybe a poll could be created asking why more folks have not tried the HR20? It would be interesting to see how big that sample size is. If the response level is significantly larger, I'd think that would be of more value to DirecTV. Assuming DirecTV pays attention to a TiVo community forum.

EDIT: Maybe include SD DirecTV/TiVo users as well. That's a much bigger population that is wanting to, or will eventually go HD. If they have not, why have they not tried the HR20? Of course maybe a significant number of them don't have HDTV's yet.


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## IMA_TV_ADDICT (Sep 11, 2006)

20TIL6 said:


> Rather, maybe it's an indication of how many folks with DirecTV/TiVo units that have chosen NOT to try the HR20. I mean, the poll was clear that you had to have tried both. Only 64 votes so far. How many HR10-250 users post here? Perhaps many are excluded from voting because they have not tried the HR20. And they shouldn't vote in this poll of course.
> 
> *So out of a sample of around 65 votes, you have a 76% chance of thinking the HR20 is not inferior to the TiVo. Rather small sample size, don't you think?*
> 
> ...


I think it is more an indication that most who have switched to the HR20 don't even bother coming to the Tivo forum anymore. They've moved on with their life and are not living in the "Tivo" past.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

IMA_TV_ADDICT said:


> I think it is more an indication that most who have switched to the HR20 don't even bother coming to the Tivo forum anymore. They've moved on with their life and are not living in the "Tivo" past.


It's difficult for me to choose the best response to that opinion. Hmmm, my top three:

1. While I wish this was the case, evidence indicates otherwise.

2. Maybe so, but I think some failed to get the memo.

3. If they have left their "TiVo" past, where did they go? Is there a community where they can discuss the HR20?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

milominderbinder said:


> bdowell,
> 
> I really like how you set up this poll. I did not reply because I have not spent a week with the HR10 and the HR20. But that is the only way that you could really compare the products.
> 
> ...


You might think this is a good poll (I would expect that from marketing types like you), but the reality is it's as flawed as yours was. It doesn't take into account that this is a Tivo forum and many of us Tivo users have chosen to not get it. So, the obvious third option is *I have chosen not to get the HR20*.

As usual, you guys use flawed logic to explain a second-rate product.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

RS4 said:


> You might think this is a good poll (I would expect that from marketing types like you), but the reality is it's as flawed as yours was. It doesn't take into account that this is a Tivo forum and many of us Tivo users have chosen to get it. So, the obvious third option is *I have chosen not to get the HR20*.
> 
> As usual, you guys use flawed logic to explain a second-rate product.


I'm sorry, but I can't see how you can comment on using logic in a post. Not a single post of yours contains a hint of logic. You haven't even used the HR20! How can you have an opinion of it? On top of that, you spew completely baseless information about feature sets and supposed problems. Have you looked at this forum to notice the number of threads related to HR10 problems? Or do you conveniently ignore those?

All polls are flawed in one way or another, but in this case there should be no option to say 'I chose not to switch'. The point is to get an opinion from those who have enough sense and open-mindedness to use both before commenting.


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## robnalex (Sep 8, 2002)

20TIL6 said:


> If they have left their "TiVo" past, where did they go? Is there a community where they can discuss the HR20?


Yes.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

badmonkey said:


> I'm sorry, but I can't see how you can comment on using logic in a post. Not a single post of yours contains a hint of logic. You haven't even used the HR20! How can you have an opinion of it? On top of that, you spew completely baseless information about feature sets and supposed problems. Have you looked at this forum to notice the number of threads related to HR10 problems? Or do you conveniently ignore those?
> 
> All polls are flawed in one way or another, but in this case there should be no option to say 'I chose not to switch'. The point is to get an opinion from those who have enough sense and open-mindedness to use both before commenting.


Once again flawed logic - look at the few people who have answered the poll compared to the hundreds who have read it. You left out probably the biggest group of respondents, so these numbers are totally flawed and misleading.

Did somebody have to drive a Ugo to know it was a bad car? No, of course not. That doesn't mean they can't form an opinion about it.

The same thing is true for the HR20. From the demos and features, I can tell it's a POS compared to the Tivo:

- 30 second skip - does not work as fast on the HR20 and shows video. I use the 30-second skip all the time and like it exactly as Tivo has programmed it.
- Picture in Group - I would absolutely hate this feature and there is no way to turn it off - piss poor design plain and simple
- no wishlist
- no suggestions
- no DLB
- a search that does not allow you to set up recordings
- non-intuitive user guide

Don't tell me that I need to pay DirecTV hundreds of dollars to get it in my house just to know I won't like it. The internet is full of information about what a lousy second-rated box DirecTV has come up with. And you know as well as I do, that folks would not be getting this box if it were not for mpeg4.

I know this is hard for you DirecTV apologists to comprehend, but there is much more to TV viewing then where the video comes from.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

How would people review the HR10 if all they used previously was the HR20? 

I've been a DirecTV Tivo user for 6 years and I refused to make any comments about the new DirecTV DVRs until I got one. Now having used the HR20 for a month, I find that it is prefectly usable for what it is. 
Does my previous TiVo usage slant my opinion? Yes! 
Does the TiVo do things that the new DVR doesn't? Yes! 
Does the new DVR do things that the TiVo doesn't? Yes!

It's all a matter of perspective!!!

Just look back at how the Ultimate TV users lamented that the TiVo units were lacking xyz.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

RS4 said:


> Once again flawed logic ...


I don't think it's my logic that is flawed. How can you make comments like 'non-intuitive guide' if you haven't used it? All of the 'issues' you point out are matters of opinion. You may like TiVo Suggestions. I hate them. You may not like Picture in Guide. I do.

These are subjective issues for which 100% satisfaction is impossible. There will always be someone who would like it to look or function differently. To claim that these items make one platform better than another is just silly (and illogical).

I hardly consider the folks that are just trying to spread truth about the HR20 'apologists'. It seems more like the TiVo fighters are the ones on the defensive anymore.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Oh goody, I love these.



RS4 said:


> - 30 second skip - does not work as fast on the HR20 and shows video. I use the 30-second skip all the time and like it exactly as Tivo has programmed it.
> 
> *At least the HR20 version isn't a backdoor code that is lost on any reboot and very few people even know about. *
> 
> ...


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I have not "switched" - I have both and use both daily. Since I am still a TiVo user, I am still here.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

badmonkey said:


> I don't think it's my logic that is flawed. How can you make comments like 'non-intuitive guide' if you haven't used it? All of the 'issues' you point out are matters of opinion. You may like TiVo Suggestions. I hate them. You may not like Picture in Guide. I do.
> 
> These are subjective issues for which 100% satisfaction is impossible. There will always be someone who would like it to look or function differently. To claim that these items make one platform better than another is just silly (and illogical).
> 
> I hardly consider the folks that are just trying to spread truth about the HR20 'apologists'. It seems more like the TiVo fighters are the ones on the defensive anymore.


I am with the majority in how I feel about the HR20 -

Would you trade?

If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700?


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

RS4 said:


> I am with the majority in how I feel about the HR20 -
> 
> Would you trade?
> 
> If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700?


More polls... You really love those, don't you. Guess you can't work to formulate your own opinion.

I guess i can't argue with your 'logic' anymore. I still question how someone who has admittedly never used the HR20 can be so vocal against it. My original comments continue to ring true... no rationality or open-mindedness exists among the TiVo fighters.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Who would have thought a VCR with a hard drive could generate such emotion.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Jeez these things are so much fun.

I'm never clear why it matters if the HR20 is better or worse than the HR10, personally I just find them different.

A better/different question is whether the HR20 is a good enough DVR given that you have to use it to get the HD channels.

It's not really Ford v Chevy because both of those will get you from A-B, the HR10 cannot get you to "B" in the case of HD channels, so perhaps it's more like Ford v Boeing, both have wheels but one can do something the other can't.

I'm probably biased but I see most HR20 owners who accept the unit as trying to be balanced but RS4 and others are so strongly against it that they are forced to go on the offensive.

Another factor, mentioned above, is that people who never owned a TIVO are very very happy with the HR20 in my experience.


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## Rigelian (May 21, 2003)

RS4 said:


> I am with the majority in how I feel about the HR20 -
> 
> Would you trade?
> 
> If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700?


Again RS4, it's kind of a silly question. Are we assuming that the "new" Directivo with mpeg4HD support won't have any bugs? I mean looking at the some of the problems folks had with getting the S3s to work with cable cards why would anyone make such an assumption? The question conveniently misses a rather critical factor in almost any product redesign. It's truly a comparison of the real with idealized non-existent.


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## Rigelian (May 21, 2003)

JohnB1000 said:


> Jeez these things are so much fun.
> 
> I'm never clear why it matters if the HR20 is better or worse than the HR10, personally I just find them different.
> 
> A better/different question is whether the HR20 is a good enough DVR given that you have to use it to get the HD channels.


JohnB1000,

You're missing the point. You have to assume away the fact that the HR20 gives expanded HD support, just as you have to assume away any possibility that a Directv upgrade to provide mpeg4HD support will have bugs. After doing that the answer is easy. Get it?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

JohnB1000 said:


> Jeez these things are so much fun.
> 
> I'm never clear why it matters if the HR20 is better or worse than the HR10, personally I just find them different.
> 
> ...


John,

As you can probably tell, many of us feel the Tivo interface and features are something we like. We believe that DirecTV has come out with a product that is no better then (and in fact not even equal to) the Tivo.

For several months now, it has been quite obvious that many Tivo users feel DirecTV has short-changed them, because they were using the top-rated product, but now have to settle for second best. The polls I mentioned above and countless threads point out these conclusions. However, there has been constant denial, even when their own polls show the opposite.

I have no problem with what folks think about the HR20 (or even the Tivos for that matter). The problem I do have is that they represent the HR20 on this Tivo forum as being superior to Tivo, when in fact the evidence continually shows that is not the case.

So, when a Tivo user is making a decision about whether to get an HR20, I want them to have all the facts - there is an additional 2-year commitment, there is no home-trial period, and a significant number of Tivo users feel the HR20 is not as good as the Tivo.

Some people just cannot wait for mpeg4 HD and they have no choice. The rest of us do. I don't like the idea of folks coming over here and encouraging others to make a decision right now when clearly there are still options. In fact, I think the best thing to do is not get the new box right now. Instead, wait and see what happens with the new owners take over DirecTV.

In any case, let's be honest with those folks that are considering their options.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I think I'm being honest, my mantra has always been - "If you want MPEG4 HD channels now then you need an HR20 which is a more than adequate system" No discussion of what's better etc. It's 100% a workable solution.

If you want MPEG4 now then it's 100% a viable choice. If you want MPEG 4 within 12 months it's most likely the only option you'll have. 

Liking the TIVO interface is all well and good but most of your posts don't promote TIVO they bash HR20 which is quite different. I like the TIVO interface but there are aspects of it that have become annoying since I have become used to the HR20 (for example not being able to bring up the guide when watching a recorded show). 

As you can see from the HR10 problem posts these "mature" products still have their share of problems. 

In summary I see a person who doesn't even own an HR20 constantly bashing it, were you here promoting the HR10 as a better choice I'd think differently I believe. I do understand that others attack and you defend, then you attack and they defend etc. but I'm just not reading any kind of balance from you.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

JohnB1000 said:


> I think I'm being honest, my mantra has always been - "If you want MPEG4 HD channels now then you need an HR20 which is a more than adequate system" No discussion of what's better etc. It's 100% a workable solution.
> 
> If you want MPEG4 now then it's 100% a viable choice. If you want MPEG 4 within 12 months it's most likely the only option you'll have.
> 
> ...


I bash it because it's clear in my mind (and a lot of others) that DirecTV did not think about it's design and/or use. Instead they got it to market as quickly as possible and have taken a year to get it to be somewhat stable. Just look at one item - how many people have to send it back because of issues. It appears to me that it may be as high as 20% of the boxes are returned. That is no where close to an acceptable quality level by most standards.

It's clear the DirecTV wanted to use a company controlled by Murdoch to build the current dvrs, but when they came out with the R15 disaster, I'm sure they realized they would have to do something else for the HD product. So, this has become a box that was designed by a company that does not do dvrs for a living. Contrast that to Cox and Comcast who are going in the opposite direction of having Tivo program their units.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

I'm one that actually has and uses both boxes. They both work fine, but I prefer the HR20. There are many others who have actually used both units with similar preferences. That is all.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

RS4, that kind of post is a good opinion. I don't agree with it in that I think most products of this type, including TIVO, are rushed to market and have problems. In my life I've owned 10 TIVO products and 4 had to be replaced so I'm looking at 40% failure.

So stating a similar opinion as you do above creates a good impression in that you have an point and you're sticking with it. Most of your posts I read are much lower brow attacks on the HR20, such as "don't buy it because it sucks" which is misleading to those same people you are trying to protect.

Anyway - peace for now


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

RS4 said:


> I bash it because


Well, at least you are clearly admitting you bash the box here.

Once we get past that....



RS4 said:


> ...it's clear in my mind (and a lot of others)


Careful with those generalizations son. When you say 'and a lot of others' you imply you are speaking for many people, and not just a relatively small minority (as the polls would seem to imply at this point).



RS4 said:


> ... that DirecTV did not think about it's design and/or use.


I don't think that is at all true. They did think about the design and how it would be used, otherwise it wouldn't function for the task it is sold for, and clearly used for by *many* people today.

They thought about having a dual-tuner device, went further and included additional hardware that basically ups that number so that there are enough tuners to handle all of the tasks that the box does. Not that I understand all the in's and out's of the technology, but there's a hell of a lot of engineering evident in the design of the box and the functions it supports.



RS4 said:


> ... Instead they got it to market as quickly as possible and have taken a year to get it to be somewhat stable.


It, and the R15 were somewhat rushed to market, and yes, it obviously had plenty to do with a broken relationship between TiVo and DirecTV. Murdoch had intentions all along of going with his own hardware and development. That's pretty obvious, and part of why (along with many other reasons) I though that Murdoch/News Corp shouldn't be allowed to win DirecTV and that DirecTV would have to remain independent. Score 1 here for a lucid and basically factual comment about the box.

There was also the obvious problem of TiVo continuing to make boxes for cable companies (competitors of DirecTV) and stand-alone boxes that worked with Dish network (another competitor of DirecTV) that obviously helped push Murdoch and DirecTV into deciding that they didn't much care for having someone that helps competitors designing systems for them.



RS4 said:


> Just look at one item - how many people have to send it back because of issues. It appears to me that it may be as high as 20% of the boxes are returned. That is no where close to an acceptable quality level by most standards.


Those numbers are debatable and totally ignore the facts that accompanied the TiVo based boxes along the way. Plenty of people have had no end of grief with the HR10 and versions of software above 3.xxx Newer versions caused many missed recordings and other grief for customers.

Hell, originally, when the old Phillips DSR6000 boxes (of which I still have several in the house as you really can't give 'em away, there's just no value in them) were released dual tuners that were built-in weren't turned on. i.e., the boxes were RUSHED to market with features not enabled at the time they were sold.

Further, for many HR10 users, the boxes that they got never had working HDMI ports. Worse, many people may never know if they got a bum box because a lot of people (like me) never bothered to try to use HDMI after all of the horror stories about the daughter board being loose, etc.

Many HR10 users had issues with the connections for the OTA being bad and loose. OOoooops again.

On the other hand, there are too many people that have had to return HR20 boxes and I'm sure that does concern DirecTV as they would prefer not to have to hand out credits to make customers happy, as well as not having to ship boxes back and forth, task their technicians to go out and investigate issues, etc.

Much like Microsoft and the problems with the Xbox 360 where too many of those customers have had too many problems too (but I digress...)

Score +1 for pointing out that there does seem to be a quality control issue at DirecTV, but -1 for over generalizing and leaving it a bit much like a rant/bash.



RS4 said:


> It's clear the DirecTV wanted to use a company controlled by Murdoch to build the current dvrs, but when they came out with the R15 disaster, I'm sure they realized they would have to do something else for the HD product. So, this has become a box that was designed by a company that does not do dvrs for a living.


Yes, it is clear that was the case (that it was going to be a Murdoch company making the boxes). But, you're off by a bit in saying that it was/is a company that doesn't do DVRs for a living. The same company makes the boxes for Sky over in the U.K. I'm sure they had/have plenty of DVR experience and STB experience before they went to work on DirecTV equipment.

Score +1 for pointing on that Murdoch was hellbent on getting his company to do the work, -1 for assuming that they weren't qualified. +1 again somewhat for pointing out that the R15 wasn't as ready for prime time as it should have been, but then again it has matured quite a bit too so -1 again there.



RS4 said:


> Contrast that to Cox and Comcast who are going in the opposite direction of having Tivo program their units.


Kicking and screamin' all the way really. Seriously, slow to the party, and still not 100% ready with their product and with a product that has a lot of limitations at this point.

I wish TiVo all the best, really I do, and I don't wish ill upon Comcast users of these boxes, but I'm not sure I'd want to be an unacknowledged beta tester for these boxes. Better to be a participant in DirecTV's acknowledged Cutting Edge tester program where you know what to expect going in and where you can clearly see your feedback is being accepted and acted upon.

No score awarded here.

If you'd like to offer up more discussions like these, then please do. As the Judge said in My Cousin Vinny, "Mr. Gambini, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out...." (or something along those lines). Much better, and much more civilized.

And for the record, you know, or should know, full well that yourself and anyone else that wants to actually help pursue change and new features in the HR20 and now the HR21 boxes are always welcome to politely request features and participate in the polls that ask what the priorities are that DirecTV should work on next on the boxes, etc. Those polls show up regularly at DBSTalk and they do get responses in the way of development at DirecTV. If not, the box(es) wouldn't be as useful as they are now by a long shot.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

This poll is not very telling IMO, because its comparing a brand new box with brand new processors and access to MPEG4 channels to one that is over 3 years old. 

But I bet the results would be much different if the poll was asking people to rate the user interface of one to the other. And I bet it would be insanely lopsided if you polled people who don't frequent this or the dbs board. THe HR-20 is designed to fit in as many "things" as possible. I won't call them features...just stuff. Its for people who like "easter eggs" in DVDs that require 5 different button sequences to get to them. The Tivo interface is for average Joe's, but also lets super-techies manipulate the hell out of it. It works for everyone.


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## Texceo (Mar 11, 2003)

I have 3 HR10-250's and 3 Hr20-100's. My family prefers the Hr20-100's over the HR10-250's.

In my families opinion the HR20-100 blows the HR10-250's out of the water!


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

I answered "no" to the poll, but I still like my TiVo HR10-250 more, and prefer it, whenever possible.

I wish there had been a few more options in the poll. After reading the entire thread, I don't really understand what could be meaningfully derived from the question as its been asked. Other than the fact that both products appear to be able to 'do what they were designed to do' and I would hope by now that there would be no question about that!

(I do think that the discussion that is attached to the poll has a lot more value than the poll results, themselves, though).


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

kmill14 said:


> THe HR-20 is designed to fit in as many "things" as possible. I won't call them features...just stuff. Its for people who like "easter eggs" in DVDs that require 5 different button sequences to get to them. The Tivo interface is for average Joe's, but also lets super-techies manipulate the hell out of it. It works for everyone.


I love both systems but I think that opinion is totally off base. The HR20 is designed for people who have no experience with TIVO, it has one button record, a button does the same thing whenever you press it, preview window etc. It seems to me to be totally designed for the person who has no DVR experience. The only thing I miss is the TIVO style guide which I believe they have locked down.

I love the TIVO interface also but it takes some getting used to actually and the features mentioned above do not exist.

Judge by my tech savvy 8yo, it took her a few weeks to get used to the TIVO interface but experienced in that she had the HR20 one sorted out in less than a day.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

RS4 said:


> Like a lot of polls, this one is flawed -


Dude, anything that doesn't agree with your HR20 bashing agenda is 'flawed'. 



RS4 said:


> The problem I do have is that they represent the HR20 on this Tivo forum as being superior to Tivo, when in fact the evidence continually shows that is not the case.


 What evidence? The stuff you just make up? On the contrary, it looks like all of the evidence (this poll for example) is exactly opposite of your delusions.

You know, I've rarely used the term 'troll', but it really seems that all you really want to do is try and get a reaction out of people. Personally, I think you are doing more harm to your crusade, than helping it. <shrug>


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Once again flawed logic - look at the few people who have answered the poll compared to the hundreds who have read it. You left out probably the biggest group of respondents, so these numbers are totally flawed and misleading.


Funny, if the poll in question shows your prefered unit as being the better one, you are all for it, you quote it to no end, and even make up your own justifications but if it goes against your favorite unit the "logic is flawed" - go figure.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> Dude, anything that doesn't agree with your HR20 bashing agenda is 'flawed'.
> 
> What evidence? The stuff you just make up? On the contrary, it looks like all of the evidence (this poll for example) is exactly opposite of your delusions.
> 
> You know, I've rarely used the term 'troll', but it really seems that all you really want to do is try and get a reaction out of people. Personally, I think you are doing more harm to your crusade, than helping it. <shrug>


I'm curious why you participate in this forum.  You come into the thread once a week and make snide remarks and leave. I don't recall one positive comment. All you ever do is bash people. I'll bet you're a joy to live with.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> Funny, if the poll in question shows your prefered unit as being the better one, you are all for it, you quote it to no end, and even make up your own justifications but if it goes against your favorite unit the "logic is flawed" - go figure.


There are many ways to ask questions in a poll to solicit the answer you want. In this case, the OP put negative words (inferior product) in the poll premise. So instantly people have their backs up. That means their defense mechanism begins working and they will tend to defend the product. If the question had said do you feel the HR20 is superior to the HR10-250, the numbers would shift more to the HR10-250.

The next thing the OP omitted was the obvious neutral option. *"Option 3 - I don't think one is better over the other" * Because of the defense mechanism folks want to answer the question, but many have expressed the middle of the road opinion.

And of course the biggest omission in this poll was not allowing any opposition opinions in the form of *"Option 4 - I decided not to get the HR20 because of the 2-year commitment Option 5 - I decided not to get the HR20 because of it's user interface, etc"*

So, this is not an honest poll - in fact far from it. The polls that are more neutral and honest are the ones created by Earl at dbstalk and the engadgethd poll.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

tivoupgrade said:


> I answered "no" to the poll, but I still like my TiVo HR10-250 more, and prefer it, whenever possible.


And actually I think that is the whole point. Just because someone likes a certain product better or would prefer it doesn't make the other one a POS or inferior. Glad you answered honestly.

Same thing can be said the other way around. If someone prefers the HR20 or Dish ViP doesn't mean that anything else like a Tivo is a POS or inferior. I mean you can go over to the Dish forums for years and see tons of posts about how Tivo if a POS. It isn't, just different. Just like the HR20 isn't a POS, just different.

RS4 keeps siting polls about how Tivo users prefer Tivo. Well, Duh. It's meaningless. So what if Tivo users would prefer to keep using Tivo? And RS4 keeps saying that the DirecTV "shills" deny this. Far from the facts. He can't accept the fact that many people would indeed prefer a Tivo interface but are perfectly fine without using one. I know it's a foreign concept to him that someone can use a different product then they would prefer to use and be ok with it.

And at the end of the day it *still doesn't matter*. If you want to continue on with DirecTV then a non-Tivo box is in your future. Done deal. If you feel Tivo trumps content then make the move. RS4 just hasn't accepted reality yet and wants to get under everyone's skin. What he doesn't get is that it doesn't work for most people, me at least. I find him funny, and sad at the same time.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> And of course the biggest omission in this poll was not allowing any opposition opinions in the form of *"Option 4 - I decided not to get the HR20 because of the 2-year commitment Option 5 - I decided not to get the HR20 because of it's user interface, etc"*
> 
> So, this is not an honest poll - in fact far from it. The polls that are more neutral and honest are the ones created by Earl at dbstalk and the engadgethd poll.


You still don't get it. The poll isn't directed at people that didn't get an HR20. There are plenty of those around. This poll is solely for people that have used both the HR20 and DirecTivo. Is that so hard a concept to grasp? You are quickly losing whatever respect you may have had around here. Y

Start your own poll with those other options. A "why didn't you get an HR20" poll. It's a free country you know.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bdowell said:


> Well, at least you are clearly admitting you bash the box here.
> ...
> .


Yes, I bash the box because I think it shows the motives of DirecTV since Murdoch took over. He pushed the balance of customer vs profit over to profit.

He switched the music service to XM. I never heard people complain about the music stations until he switched them. I don't want to discuss the value of one service compared to the other, but I believe he switched them just to get more money - by now putting some of the stations in another tier so he could charge more.

He dropped Tivo in favor of having NDS-built boxes. The features when announced were never more than stand alone Tivo boxes, so he wasn't making any improvements over the existing products. This came at a time when the Tivo customers of DirecTV reportedly had the lowest churn rate compared to any other segment of DirecTV customers. Plus it was widely reported that the DTivo customers spent more than other customer segments. In addition, DirecTV was picking up a lot of new dvr customers compared to cable.

The obvious question is why are you announcing a replacement product set with no new features? How could you possibly improve on that segment of the market without improvements? Why risk upsetting your most valuable customers? Greed - squeeze the profit away from Tivo.

NDS had been making dvrs for a few years, so Murdoch probably figured one company was as good as another. But, the R15 turned out to be a disaster. It had operational problems that had been reported 4 years earlier and still had not been solved by NDS.

I'm sure they quickly realized they could not replace the HR10-250 with an NDS-built box, so they decided to do it in house. So DirecTV was probably under the gun to produce a product to replace the HR10-250. The HR20 too was another disaster by most reports when it was released.

So, the whole reason for the HR20 in my mind is due to greed. As I recall, Tivo had all of the major features available or coming to market. The DTivo customers had been clambering to have the stand alone features turned on in their boxes too. I believe that DirecTV could have turned them on and shared some additional revenue with Tivo for an 'advanced' feature set.

DirecTV made other changes by leasing the equipment and charging at the beginning of the lease. I'm no financial expert, but this appears to me to have absolutely no benefit to the customer and yet bring cash up front to DirecTV. In addition to that, DirecTV locked the customer down by forcing another charge. So, in theory, the current DirecTV model is for me to pay $299 to lease a box and several hundred more if I leave the service - all of this when the HR20 costs DirecTV less than $400 and the HR21 costs around $300. Again - this is pure greed.

Yes, if we're lucky and find a marketing guy like Craig to get us a 'deal', we can avoid some of that nonsense, but the average customer isn't aware of that.

The net is that the HR20 represents to me a company that is after the almighty dollar instead of the company that used to be innovative. The obvious marketing path to me would have been to come out with a new Tivo box and offered an additional set of products that could have brought more money into both companies. That is making your top-rated product even better and adding dollars to the cash register at the same time.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Texceo said:


> I have 3 HR10-250's and 3 Hr20-100's. My family prefers the Hr20-100's over the HR10-250's.
> 
> In my families opinion the HR20-100 blows the HR10-250's out of the water!


Why does your family prefer the HR20?


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## IMA_TV_ADDICT (Sep 11, 2006)

RS4, I do recogize your committment to Tivo, but you must also realize that you do not speak for all. At this point I think you are speaking for a very small minority.

I have use DirecTivos for 4 years, and still use 2 of them. They work fairly well for me but certainly are not perfect. The user interface was cutting edge....5 or 6 years ago.

I added an HR20 to my system because I wanted the new HD channels. I did put it off as long as I could, and have had it for 6 weeks now. No problems at all, it has worked perfectly, at least as well as my Tivos.

I must disagree about your analysis that D* is not concerned about innovation. If anything, using the HR20 has caused me to realize how much was missing from my Tivos. Now, with both the HR10-250 and the HR20 connected to my AV receiver and main TV, I find myself no longer wanting to use the HR10 because the user interface on the HR20 is so much better (faster, easier to use, thoughfully designed.)

Nothing stays top rated forever. Things change. Tivo was top rated at one point, years ago. They are behind the curve and struggling now. That happens with technology. That doesn't mean I'm bashing them, I just recognize they have lost the cutting edge, and in my opinion, D* captured it with the HR20.

Obviously you will disagree. That does not mean either of us is wrong. It's not really a problem if people don't all prefer the same product. Take a chill pill and enjoy your Tivo and respect others for their choice.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

IMA_TV_ADDICT said:


> ...
> Nothing stays top rated forever. Things change. Tivo was top rated at one point, years ago. They are behind the curve and struggling now. That happens with technology. That doesn't mean I'm bashing them, I just recognize they have lost the cutting edge, and in my opinion, D* captured it with the HR20.


Here are just two example of why the Hr20 is no improvement over the Tivo -

OTA - DirecTV used a third generation over the air scanner when 5th generation was available. The HR20 is rated as having one of the worse scanners in currently available products. In addition to that DirecTV could not even get the OTA scanners to work on their own - i.e. scan your area to find all of the HD signals. Instead, they have to rely on a database that tells them what is in the local area. That means if a station adds an HD channel, the HR20 cannot pick it up until someone has entered it into a database.

50 SP limit - why even have a limit at all? If there is a programming issue, then redesign the software. Indications are that DirecTV decided to 'let it go' and fix it later.

The first is an example of not keeping up with technology and the second is not bothering to understand the market for the product and implementing design flaws.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

IMA_TV_ADDICT said:


> Nothing stays top rated forever. Things change. Tivo was top rated at one point, years ago. They are behind the curve and struggling now. That happens with technology. That doesn't mean I'm bashing them, I just recognize they have lost the cutting edge, and in my opinion, D* captured it with the HR20.


TiVo is "behind the curve" in what sense? TiVo has features that DTV has never allowed them to offer and still doesn't offer on their own DVRs. The HR10 was simply the addition of HD capability to a software platform that was three to five years old when it was introduced.


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## IMA_TV_ADDICT (Sep 11, 2006)

Sorry, my OTA picture is better on my HR20 than on my HR10, so as far as I'm concerned it's an improvement.

Why an SP limit? As an improvement over the mind-numbing wait on the Tivo when adding anything more than 30 or 40. Again, an improvement.

Once again, I admire your committment to find something, anything that's wrong with a product you don't use. But please go take that chill pill and enjoy your Tivo.


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## IMA_TV_ADDICT (Sep 11, 2006)

nrc said:


> TiVo is "behind the curve" in what sense? TiVo has features that DTV has never allowed them to offer and still doesn't offer on their own DVRs. The HR10 was simply the addition of HD capability to a software platform that was three to five years old when it was introduced.


Picture in guide, one push record, two push SP, video on demand, networking out of the box, SPEED to name a few. That doesn't mean Tivo can't do it. It's just the D* did with their HR20.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

IMA_TV_ADDICT said:


> Sorry, my OTA picture is better on my HR20 than on my HR10, so as far as I'm concerned it's an improvement.
> 
> Why an SP limit? As an improvement over the mind-numbing wait on the Tivo when adding anything more than 30 or 40. Again, an improvement.
> 
> Once again, I admire your committment to find something, anything that's wrong with a product you don't use. But please go take that chill pill and enjoy your Tivo.


I'm glad your OTA picture is better. I would expect it to be as good or better then Tivo since they used first gen technology. I wonder how good it could have been if DirecTV had used the latest technology? 

I'm glad you feel a 50 sp limit is an improvement. As you keep adding hard drive space, I'm sure you won't mind managing your sp limits.  I think most 'innovative' companies would say 2 tuners x 24 hours plus lots of hard drive space means adding an artificial limit does not make sense, but I guess that's just my 'lemming' thinking? 

I feel quite at home discussing the HR10-250 in it's home discussion group. It's a shame that folks feel the need to take over the Tivo groups when they have hundreds of discussions on dbstalk. I believe we're perfectly capable of sending them over to dbstalk when the need arises.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

IMA_TV_ADDICT said:


> Picture in guide, one push record, two push SP, video on demand, networking out of the box, SPEED to name a few. That doesn't mean Tivo can't do it. It's just the D* did with their HR20.


How about reliable season passes, a *significantly* better library of on-demand movies and TV shows, a subscription to 2mil+ songs, swivel search, tivo2go/comeback, remote scheduling, boolean search strings, wishlists, suggestions, kidzone, broadband content, and dual live buffers.....

These are all things Tivo can do that DTV's new DVR does not. Tivo has a picture in guide feature with the new Comcast interface, so its not like they can't do that either.

There is no networking out of the box with the HR-20, so you are wrong there. Like Tivo, you need a wireless adapter.

The speed of the HR-20 is better because its a new box with new guts.

tell me again how Tivo is behind the curve.

Oh, and the menu system in the HR-20 is terrible, the remote is terrible, and the 30 second skip is really a slip feature that is 35-36 seconds with a 3-second slip-back. How useful is that?


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

RS4 said:


> Like a lot of polls, this one is flawed - If you were serious about this, you would have offered a selection or two for those of us who have decided not get involved with the HR20. After all, here we are on a Tivo forum, so I would guess a lot of us have decided to opt out for now.
> 
> Like many folks, I would have loved to try one at home before deciding. However, it's clear that DirecTV doesn't have enough confidence in their product to allow that. At the same time, I have done enough research and seen enough demos to know I wouldn't like the box.
> 
> But of course you really aren't interested in what Tivo users think, you're only promoting a second-rated box from a company that used to be innovative.


neither do most companies YOU LEMMING!


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

kmill14 said:


> How about reliable season passes, a *significantly* better library of on-demand movies and TV shows, a subscription to 2mil+ songs, swivel search, tivo2go/comeback, remote scheduling, boolean search strings, wishlists, suggestions, kidzone, broadband content, and dual live buffers.....
> 
> These are all things Tivo can do that DTV's new DVR does not. Tivo has a picture in guide feature with the new Comcast interface, so its not like they can't do that either.
> 
> ...


All those things (outside of complaints about the remote control, which I think is a matter of preference and don't have complaints about myself. -- while I prefer the the Peanut for comfort, I'm very happy with the RC34 for use and prefer it for the functions it does) are nice, but many of the list you put there are for STANDALONE TiVo's only which is comparing Oranges with Apples.

If TiVo had a box that worked for DirecTV that offered all of those features, then people would be buying them, but they don't. TiVo's offering is somewhat stuck in time, with promises to have some features (which should have been enabled a long time ago) finally going sometime in the future. Yeah, I know that is DirecTV fault to a large extent, but I also know that if DirecTV didn't feel that TiVo was competing against them, they probably wouldn't have put so much effort into going their own way and making their own boxes (though under Rupert Murdoch, that probably isn't the case...)

I understand loyalty to the TiVo interface, and yes, there are places like the number of season pass cap where TiVo winds over the HR20/HR21 hands down.

Complaints about the built-in tuner are fine, but in reality neither OTA tuner is the top of the line. One is newer than the other, but neither are top of the line. Neither has to be because the box is primarily a satellite receiver, not an OTA receiver.

Again though, TiVo is a dead end for DirecTV *at this time* and doesn't look to even have a chance into the forseeable future. TiVo could design something like a Slingbox Solo to use with DirecTV equipment, but it would be single tuner only and incur probably 3x the monthly fee compared to the DirecTV DVR fee. It might do very well on the market if people really love the TiVo interface, or it might barely blip on the radar because people are just too cheap to pay that much extra for a box that would be somewhat crippled compared to other choices.

I'd love to see TiVo take that approach though and create a box that would work with anything that output component or HDMI. If they did, it might sell well and give customers that want choices that choice. I am not holding my breath though, and despite some protestations from some that taking an HR20 is the equivalent of rewarding DirecTV rather than punishing them for their decisions, I don't believe DirecTV has felt anything at all from TiVo holdouts. Not so much as a nip from a mosquito.

Let me also correct a few things here though:


kmill14 said:


> How about reliable season passes, a *significantly* better library of on-demand movies and TV shows, a subscription to 2mil+ songs, swivel search, tivo2go/comeback, remote scheduling, boolean search strings, wishlists, suggestions, kidzone, broadband content, and dual live buffers.....


Some things in the list are true, some not.

Lets see, reliable season passes - nary a missed recording on the HR20 here or in many other homes.

Significantly better library of on-demand movies - debatable. For now, probably true, but that advantage going away very quickly now that DirecTV on Demand is a reality for *all*.

Subscription to 2mil+ songs - why? XM channels on DirecTV provide plenty of tunes. Home Media Server connect features provide access to PCs running Windows Media Player (newest versions) or Media Center Edition or Vista Home Premium (or above) with an individual's choice of all of their own library of music available. DirecTV on Demand also offers a good variety of music videos and such.

TiVo2go/comeback. Yup, winner for TiVo for sure and apparently not in the near term future for DirecTV on the HR20/HR21.

Remote Scheduling - now offered on HR20/HR21 boxes so no advantage to either there.

Search Strings - definitely room for improvement for DirecTV but will likely be addressed in the future as feature requests keep getting addressed.

Wishlists - yup, again TiVo wins there.

Suggestions - neat feature that most people don't use. Some love it though, and for those, advantage TiVo.

KidZone - again, neat feature, advantage TiVo.

Broadband Content - possibly advantage TiVo, but hard to tell going forward.

Dual live buffers- again, for now advantge TiVo. Highly requested feature from DirecTV, possibly addressed in the future. Worked around easily enough by recording two programs at the same time and working with bookmarks and such on playback.

Here's where more corrections come into play though...


kmill14 said:


> These are all things Tivo can do that DTV's new DVR does not. Tivo has a picture in guide feature with the new Comcast interface, so its not like they can't do that either.
> 
> There is no networking out of the box with the HR-20, so you are wrong there. Like Tivo, you need a wireless adapter.


Not so fast. HR20/HR21 have wired networking built-in. If you mean wireless, then yeah, you need a bridge or other wireless device, but wired is IN THERE. NO adapter is needed. Hook it up, it gets an address automatically and away you go.



kmill14 said:


> The speed of the HR-20 is better because its a new box with new guts.


True, though I would guess that the newest Standalone TiVo boxes are pretty fast as well, but that would again compare Apples to Oranges for purposes of a DirecTV HDTV PVR forum.



kmill14 said:


> tell me again how Tivo is behind the curve.


Standalone TiVo not so much, even perhaps Comcast integrated and such, not so much. DirecTV DVR with TiVo is definitely behind the curve in most categories.



kmill14 said:


> Oh, and the menu system in the HR-20 is terrible, the remote is terrible, and the 30 second skip is really a slip feature that is 35-36 seconds with a 3-second slip-back. How useful is that?


Already mentioned somewhat above, but I like the menus on the HR20. They are fast and work just fine. The remote works well for me and doesn't feel bad at all. I use a spare RC32 (same as RC34, but no RF) to control a TiVo based box. It works great for that. 30 second slip works fine. 30 second skip on the TiVo boxes *never* worked for me. I could never get the friggin' code to work and if I did happen to get it working, it would be gone at next reboot/power outage on the box.

DirecTV has continued to work on the auto-correction though, and it is getting better. Thanks to feedback that they actually listen to and act upon as they are actively developing on the HR20/HR21 while the HR10-250 is basically done for development, less some promised upgrades for a few features that are coming sometime in the future.


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## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

Let's see... The HR20 records HDTV and for the most part, the HR10-250 doesn't. Makes the TiVo inferior to me.

Btw, I have a bunch of D-TiVos in my house also. I love TiVo and wish they could have stayed with DirecTv, but alas, they didn't. It's not a matter of not liking TiVo, it's a matter of which one does the job for me. And the HR20 does it very well. Perfect? No, but very well indeed.

Scooter


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> I feel quite at home discussing the HR10-250 in it's home discussion group. It's a shame that folks feel the need to take over the Tivo groups when they have hundreds of discussions on dbstalk. I believe we're perfectly capable of sending them over to dbstalk when the need arises.


If that would be all you did and shut your pie hole beyond just sending someone to DBSTalk there wouldn't be any problem. It's when you start in with your [email protected] that people become defensive and feel the need to correct you.

Did I not suggest to you and others...what...6-9 months ago to just direct people to DBSTalk and leave it at that? But noooooo, you refuse, you must interject and tell the world that DirecTV is evil and wronged Tivo and so and so forth. Again.

Heck, I wouldn't ever logon here if I didn't have to correct your FUD all the time.

Follow your own advice, it would be nice. Direct people to DBSTalk, alert a mod and have the thread closed. Is that really so hard for you?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

RS4 said:


> I'm curious why you participate in this forum.  You come into the thread once a week and make snide remarks and leave. I don't recall one positive comment.


I participate for several reasons. First, because I still have Tivos. Secondly because I've been a member since 1999. And lastly to keep people like you in check. 

I've made plenty of positive comments about both the HR10 and HR20. But if you are referring to positive comments about you and your misleading *opinions* (that you try to pass off as facts), then you are right. And I don't come here so often becasue I'm not a lemming and have other things to do besides whine about how Tivo is going the way of the dodo as far as DirecTV is concerned.



RS4 said:


> All you ever do is bash people. I'll bet you're a joy to live with.


And all you ever do is bash a product you haven't even used and refuse to even try. Living with a person with that sort of an attitude must really be a joy too.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> If that would be all you did and shut your pie hole beyond just sending someone to DBSTalk there wouldn't be any problem. It's when you start in with your [email protected] that people become defensive and feel the need to correct you.
> 
> Did I not suggest to you and others...what...6-9 months ago to just direct people to DBSTalk and leave it at that? But noooooo, you refuse, you must interject and tell the world that DirecTV is evil and wronged Tivo and so and so forth. Again.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. The only reason I even come back here is to catch up on the latest incorrect information being spread about the HR20.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

badmonkey said:


> I agree 100%. The only reason I even come back here is to catch up on the latest incorrect information being spread about the HR20.


I am sorta like you as well. Beside, what is there to say about the HR10-250 at this point? Beside it breaking down with various problems, software hell with 6.3 and it died and I want a HR20.

Honestly TivoHeads?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

gio1269 said:


> neither do most companies YOU LEMMING!


Does that make you feel like a real man, calling people names? 

I assume your comment is directed towards the issue of a trail period and most companies that I am aware of still offer trial periods - usually 30 days.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

RS4 said:


> Does that make you feel like a real man, calling people names?
> 
> I assume your comment is directed towards the issue of a trail period and most companies that I am aware of still offer trial periods - usually 30 days.


Most cellphone companies don't as well as others. Say can I buy car and get 30 days?

Now should maybe D* offer 30 days? Maybe. If they did I would have sent my HR10 back in that time. 2 breakdowns in 21 days!

You are constantly dropping crap here. now shut your pie hole for once.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

IMA_TV_ADDICT said:


> Picture in guide, one push record, two push SP, video on demand, networking out of the box, SPEED to name a few. That doesn't mean Tivo can't do it. It's just the D* did with their HR20.


So what happens after that 50th two push season pass?  Anyway, that's some leading edge stuff - straight out of an 6 year old Ultimate TV box. In any case, those are user interface design decisions. Some people like the idea of a picture on their DVR menus but I would never want it.

It's amusing that people can overlook limited season passes, limited Wish List capability, and lack of dual live buffers and then site things like this as leading edge features.

You said that TiVo was behind the curve. If you meant the HR10-250 DirecTV DVR powered by TiVo then that's what you should have said. DirecTV chose to commision that device even though it was out of date by TiVo software standards the day it was released.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

gio1269 said:


> Most cellphone companies don't as well as others. Say can I buy car and get 30 days?


Almost any car dealer will allow you a no obligation test drive. That's all people are asking for.

Verizon offers a 30 day money back guarantee. http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/splash/splash.jsp?v=12

You kind of suck at this arguing stuff.



> Now should maybe D* offer 30 days? Maybe. If they did I would have sent my HR10 back in that time. 2 breakdowns in 21 days!


Like that's going to happen. They'd say take it or leave it and you'd say "Please, sir. May I have another?"


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> There are many ways to ask questions in a poll to solicit the answer you want. In this case, the OP put negative words (inferior product) in the poll premise. So instantly people have their backs up. That means their defense mechanism begins working and they will tend to defend the product. If the question had said do you feel the HR20 is superior to the HR10-250, the numbers would shift more to the HR10-250.
> 
> The next thing the OP omitted was the obvious neutral option. *"Option 3 - I don't think one is better over the other" * Because of the defense mechanism folks want to answer the question, but many have expressed the middle of the road opinion.
> 
> ...


/rofl - love it....but wait by that logic then every other poll that YOU agreed with the results was asked perfectly, imagine that.

The question asked is straight forward, and to the point, nothing is needed about the 2 yr commitment, or if they liked the tivo interface over all, juat a simple fact of a opinion of the two units. You have your opinion and as long as all the polls that ask just about the same thing show something you agree with then it is fine, if it doesn;t you find fault with it.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

nrc said:


> Almost any car dealer will allow you a no obligation test drive. That's all people are asking for.
> 
> Verizon offers a 30 day money back guarantee. http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/splash/splash.jsp?v=12
> 
> ...


Boy, you are an idiot! I said a 30 day test drive like RS4 said. Sure I can take a car fr a spin. You can take the HR20 for a spin too for a few minutes. Go to BB or CC and use the demo one. By your argument holds eater there.... 

Yes, Version JUST offered this this year. Before that NO ONE did. Again they are the ONLY one. Again I could not est drive the HR10-250 at the time, could I? No could right? No you were fine making a 2 yr commitment on an out dated Tivo the first time? Even if you were payng a $1000?

Geez old cracker.....


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

sjberra said:


> /rofl - love it....but wait by that logic then every other poll that YOU agreed with the results was asked perfectly, imagine that.
> 
> The question asked is straight forward, and to the point, nothing is needed about the 2 yr commitment, or if they liked the tivo interface over all, juat a simple fact of a opinion of the two units. You have your opinion and as long as all the polls that ask just about the same thing show something you agree with then it is fine, if it doesn;t you find fault with it.


Don't you get it by now? He is a Message Board TROLL!! Don't feed him!


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## IMA_TV_ADDICT (Sep 11, 2006)

nrc said:


> So what happens after that 50th two push season pass?  Anyway, that's some leading edge stuff - straight out of an 6 year old Ultimate TV box. In any case, those are user interface design decisions. Some people like the idea of a picture on their DVR menus but I would never want it.
> 
> It's amusing that people can overlook limited season passes, limited Wish List capability, and lack of dual live buffers and then site things like this as leading edge features.
> 
> You said that TiVo was behind the curve. If you meant the HR10-250 DirecTV DVR powered by TiVo then that's what you should have said. DirecTV chose to commision that device even though it was out of date by TiVo software standards the day it was released.


Sorry You were confused about which Tivo I was referring to. I thought since we were in the DirecTV HD Powered Tivo forum, in a thread comparing the HR10-250 to the HR20 it would be obvious to which Tivo my comments were directed. I guess I should have spelled it out more for those who couldn't follow it. My bad.

50 SP limit is not an issue for me. I never exceeded that in 4 years of DirecTivo use and I don't foresee it being a problem now. I'm at 16 series links now. DLB is also not an issue for me. Since I have a DVR I watch recorded programs and almost never watch live. However, I don't watch sports and I certainly can see where that would be an advantage to those who do. Again, it doesn't matter to me. Likewise I never used wishlist or suggestions on the Tivo, so those were meaningless features to me.

I gained from many of the new features the HR20 has, and lost nothing.

Oh, and one other little thing....I also gained about 60 HD channels. 

The OP asked for my comparrison of the two boxes, and that's what I gave. It's really fine with me if your opinion is different and you stay with your Tivo. I don't need your agreement to validate of my decision. Just don't ask for my agreement to validate yours.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

gio1269 said:


> Boy, you are an idiot!


A personal attack. I'd have been suprised by anything else, actually.



> I said a 30 day test drive like RS4 said. Sure I can take a car fr a spin. You can take the HR20 for a spin too for a few minutes. Go to BB or CC and use the demo one. By your argument holds eater there....


Is the problem that you don't understand the absurdity of comparing a $300 purchase to a $20,000 purchase or just aren't able to understand anything beyond "You are a..."?

The point is having sufficient opportunity to try something and decide whether it's right for you. You get that opportunity when a company has confidence in their product and the cost isn't prohibitive.

But wait, are you saying that going to Best Buy and trying out an HR20 is sufficient experience to form an opinion on the unit? Because the party line among HR20 apologists is that you can't really have a valid opinion on the HR20 unless lease one and commit to DirecTV for two years for the privilage. They've hammered RS4 on that endlessly. But it's good that you're ready to stand up against that and support the validity of opinions formed in 15 minutes at Best Buy.



> Yes, Version JUST offered this this year. Before that NO ONE did. Again they are the ONLY one.


And this makes you less than completely wrong on this point how? 



> Again I could not est drive the HR10-250 at the time, could I? No could right? No you were fine making a 2 yr commitment on an out dated Tivo the first time? Even if you were payng a $1000?


I didn't like having to commit for two years without a trial. But given that the software was nearly identical to the DirecTiVo that I already owned and that I intended to stay with DirecTV for the time being anyway it was not a show stopper. None of that is the case with the HR20.



> Geez old cracker.....


I love how predictable you are. Never change. Really.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

IMA_TV_ADDICT said:


> Sorry You were confused about which Tivo I was referring to. I thought since we were in the DirecTV HD Powered Tivo forum, in a thread comparing the HR10-250 to the HR20 it would be obvious to which Tivo my comments were directed. I guess I should have spelled it out more for those who couldn't follow it. My bad.


Oh, I was confused, was I? Let's just see.


> Tivo was top rated at one point, years ago. *They* are behind the curve and struggling now. That happens with technology. That doesn't mean I'm bashing them, I just recognize *they* have lost the cutting edge, and in my opinion, D* captured it with the HR20.


"They," not "it". Clearly you were talking about the state of TiVo, not the HR10. A topic that, according to the HR20 defenders, you're in no position to comment on since you don't own a current TiVo DVR. It's kind of sad for you to try to backpedal, but understandable given that the non-TiVo owners who are here on this TiVo forum solely to fight for Truth and Justice in all things will surely call you to task for it. 



> The OP asked for my comparrison of the two boxes, and that's what I gave. It's really fine with me if your opinion is different and you stay with your Tivo. I don't need your agreement to validate of my decision. Just don't ask for my agreement to validate yours.


I'm not concerned about your choice of DVR. I'd just as soon see everyone who plans to stay with DirecTV and wants HD buy an HR20 and leave these forums. "Behind the curve" isn't a statement of opinion based on your preference for features that were on Dish Players 8 years ago, it's a comment on the company's technology. I'm simply pointing out that your statement on TiVo seems woefully uninformed. And now I'll add that your attempt to defend it is ham-handed and comical.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

I have no experience with either an HR10 or HR20, so I am not going to vote, but I'll illuminate the paradigm very simply. Assuming the user interface of both is readily useable (not a foregone conclusion but also not unilkely), then if the HR-20 has Suggestions, Wishlists, searches filtered by genre, actor, director, keyword, resolution, and category (action adventure, romance, sports, gameshow, documentary, etc), can easily have it's hard drive expanded, fully developed networking including webcasts, program transfers between units and both directions between a PC and the HR-20, music and video from the LAN and the internet, and reasonably configurable collision moderation when there are are more programs in the schedule than can be handled by the number of available tuners, then the HR-20 is an acceptable alternative to a TiVo. If not, then it's a piece of crap.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

But lrhorer, the HR10 doesn't have most of what you list either. The HR20 does have supported networking, supported drive expansion, searches filtered by genre, etc., and more of what you list. So what's your point?


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

stevel said:


> But lrhorer, the HR10 doesn't have most of what you list either. The HR20 does have supported networking, supported drive expansion, searches filtered by genre, etc., and more of what you list. So what's your point?


And to add a point - it supports these natively, does not require technical knowledge to hack features in


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

nrc said:


> But wait, are you saying that going to Best Buy and trying out an HR20 is sufficient experience to form an opinion on the unit?


Well, seeing how a few here have formed an opinion without trying it for even 30 seconds, I would say it could. It doesn't take a whole lot of time to navigate a few menus to determine if you have an IQ above 3 to be able to operate it. Other than that, it simply records shows. How much more do you need to evaluate?


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

Mark Lopez said:


> Well, seeing how a few here have formed an opinion without trying it for even 30 seconds, I would say it could. ...


  !!!


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

gio1269 said:


> Boy, you are an idiot! I said a 30 day test drive like RS4 said. Sure I can take a car fr a spin. You can take the HR20 for a spin too for a few minutes. Go to BB or CC and use the demo one. By your argument holds eater there....
> 
> Yes, Version JUST offered this this year. Before that NO ONE did. Again they are the ONLY one. Again I could not est drive the HR10-250 at the time, could I? No could right? No you were fine making a 2 yr commitment on an out dated Tivo the first time? Even if you were payng a $1000?
> 
> Geez old cracker.....


Nice intelligent response. Keep that 'high octane' banter coming.

You go girl!


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> Well, seeing how a few here have formed an opinion without trying it for even 30 seconds, I would say it could. It doesn't take a whole lot of time to navigate a few menus to determine if you have an IQ above 3 to be able to operate it. Other than that, it simply records shows. How much more do you need to evaluate?


Right. Why the does someone needs 30 days. Sure the GUI is no so cute and kiddy looking!

Look, there are features I wish the HR20 had:

DLB
Whishlist
Guide.

That's it for me. Otherwise the HR20 has more. Now the S3 stuff is another story.

I wonder if these people who paid $1000 wanted a "test drive" as well.

When I went from the Hughes DirectTivo to the Hr10 I had to commit to 2 yrs as well. But I did not care as I like D* and Comcrap sucks around here.

best part? I go my MR20 on with the Protection Plan so I did NOT add to my commitment. Come next June I am a free man!


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Sir_winealot said:


> Nice intelligent response. Keep that 'high octane' banter coming.
> 
> You go girl!


Talking about little girls....Are you still crying over your spilled Tivo??


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

stevel said:


> But lrhorer, the HR10 doesn't have most of what you list either. The HR20 does have supported networking, supported drive expansion, searches filtered by genre, etc., and more of what you list. So what's your point?


But it could if DTV would allow Tivo, Inc. to turn those features on. However, DTV has gone the complete opposite direction... TTG was completely REMOVED from 6.3 -- not disabled, _gone_. Tivo has advanced significantly, however DTV has not allowed any of that to appear on DTivo's. (The only change I've seen in years is the combined channel list -- channels you receive and favorites are one (horrible, slow) screen.)

There cannot be an apples to apples comparision. DTV has placed features on the HR20 it won't allow on any other receiver. Tivo's could easily have had those features many years ago.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

cramer said:


> There cannot be an apples to apples comparision. DTV has placed features on the HR20 it won't allow on any other receiver. Tivo's could *POSSIBLY* easily have had those features many years ago.


Fixed your post.

Seriously, the HR10 and the earlier TiVo based boxes could have had several features over time, but then again the hardware might not have really have been able to support those features. It is possible (not that we'll ever know for sure) that DirecTV didn't allow some of those features because in testing they broke the boxes completely.

There are other reasons why some features didn't show up too. Reasons having to do with having a programming provider running DirecTV. Again, part of why I was never a fan of having the FOX in charge of the DirecTV hen-house. FOX's interests as a programming provider are not necessarily the types of interests that DirecTV customers have. FOX wants stronger DRM (Digital Rights Management) and has never been big on giving customers content that they can easily share with others, easily use on other equipment, etc.

I'd love to do some searching back through previous threads from the time frame when DirecTV was being bought up by FOX to see how many of the current TiVo lovers were rejoicing that DirecTV was being bought by FOX rather than by Dish (who originally tried to merge with and buy DirecTV). Those that were cheering on that FOX purchase of DirecTV have no one but themselves to blame for what happened next in the story when DirecTV decided that TiVo was competing against them by working with/cooperating with cable companies and opted to basically end their relationship.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

bdowell said:


> Seriously, the HR10 and the earlier TiVo based boxes could have had several features over time, but then again *the hardware might not have really have been able to support those features*. It is possible (not that we'll ever know for sure) that DirecTV didn't allow some of those features because in testing they broke the boxes completely.


Bull! Until recently, the code for these functions were there. Directv didn't allow them to be activated, but there were those ("many") that turned them on anyway. It worked just fine. The DTivo hardware is the same as the SA Tivo hardware of that era. The TTG functions work just fine on those systems as well.

Don't for one second even suggest Directv tests tivo software. It has been shown repeatly over the years that they, in fact, don't. (some might say they don't even test their own code.) They don't even test the effects of system changes on anything but their current production hardware -- to which the answer to almost every problem is "here, take this 'upgrade' for $19.95 (<fine print>and a 2 year contract</fine print>.)" While I understand the complexity of trying to support 15 years worth of different hardware, making changes that break the millions(?) of tivos out here is Bad Business -- they don't have the hardware stock to replace every tivo; it would take months if not years, and if that was their plan, they've have a year to do it already.


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## pmturcotte (May 7, 2001)

Scooter said:


> *Let's see... The HR20 records HDTV and for the most part, the HR10-250 doesn't. Makes the TiVo inferior to me.*
> 
> Btw, I have a bunch of D-TiVos in my house also. I love TiVo and wish they could have stayed with DirecTv, but alas, they didn't. It's not a matter of not liking TiVo, it's a matter of which one does the job for me. And the HR20 does it very well. Perfect? No, but very well indeed.
> 
> Scooter


Define "for the most part".

I have 32 Season Passes on my HR10-250, 30 that record in HD.


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## IMA_TV_ADDICT (Sep 11, 2006)

pmturcotte said:


> *Define "for the most part".*
> 
> I have 32 Season Passes on my HR10-250, 30 that record in HD.


Definition of "for the most part" means that currently it will record none of the new MPEG4 channels. Within a few months the definition will be it will record no satellite HD. But it will still be a darn good HD OTA and SD recorder, and mine performs beautifully in that function alongside my HR20.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

IMA_TV_ADDICT said:


> Definition of "for the most part" means that currently it will record none of the new MPEG4 channels. Within a few months the definition will be it will record no satellite HD. But it will still be a darn good HD OTA and SD recorder, and mine performs beautifully in that function alongside my HR20.


Exactly


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## pmturcotte (May 7, 2001)

Really? Well I've been hearing that on and off for the past 12 months. 

In a few months in DTVspeak is really 12-18 months.


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## IMA_TV_ADDICT (Sep 11, 2006)

pmturcotte said:


> Really? Well I've been hearing that on and off for the past 12 months.
> 
> In a few months in DTVspeak is really 12-18 months.


LOL, I hear you on that. I waited a year to add the HR20, until it was reported the MPEG-4 test channels were actually on. I figured no sense getting it any sooner, let others work the bugs out for me. My HR20 was installed 9/21, 5 days before the first round of MPEG-4 went live.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not wishing for the MPEG-2 HD to go away. I'm just pretty sure it will, and now that the MPEG-4s are active, probably sooner than later. I figured I'd be ready for it when it happens, plus I would be getting all the new channels. About half the programs I watch now are off the new channels and I'm really glad I have them.


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## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

pmturcotte said:


> Define "for the most part".
> 
> I have 32 Season Passes on my HR10-250, 30 that record in HD.


If you are happy with only being able to receive the channels that you get, that's great. Quite honestly, it doesn't matter to me what model you guys like. I'm just tossing my opinion out as to which one works best for my situation. I want to be able to record all of the DirecTv channels that are available. You simply can't do that with the HR10. I'm sorry that you can't with your TiVos. I know that sucks.
Perhaps that's not important to many of you. It certainly is to me.

Scooter


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Scooter said:


> If you are happy with only being able to receive the channels that you get, that's great. Quite honestly, it doesn't matter to me what model you guys like. I'm just tossing my opinion out as to which one works best for my situation. I want to be able to record all of the DirecTv channels that are available. You simply can't do that with the HR10. I'm sorry that you can't with your TiVos. I know that sucks.
> Perhaps that's not important to many of you. It certainly is to me.
> 
> Scooter


Exactly, I've said a number of times that the real question is not whether the HR20 is better or worse than the HR10 but is it good enough considering it's the only way to get and record MPEG4. The answer to that question is unquestionably YES.


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## FraidKnot (Jun 28, 2002)

Let me say that I am a Tivo fan - have had 8 (or more) through the years. However, previously, the Tivo vs. xxx were all about the recording options, expandability (hacking for extensability), the usability, etc. There was never an issue, "I can't record this on my Tivo". In almost all cases, (direct tv) Tivo won, hands down (IMHO). However, as of right now, neither of my HR10-250s will record SCI-Fi in HD ( or any of the other new content) I don't have the Tivo cause I love gadgets (thought I do), I have Tivo to enhance my ability to watch the programs I want, when I want. As of today, about 50% of the programs I watch are available in HD *only* on the non-Tivo HR20. The alternate DVR still allows me to watch what I want, when I want.

So, I either see fewer of the shows (in HD) that I want to see, or I move to a non-Tivo DVR. 

That being said, I sure hope a mind meld occurs to merge the good of the HR20 and HR10 into one, sometime in the next year ....


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

FraidKnot made me think of another point. HR20 may miss the odd recording (though mine never has) HR10 is missing every single HD MPEG4 recording + some of it's own.

When I checked my HR10 on Saturday it was frozen and required a reboot. First time I can remember that happening. However I didn't suddenly decide it was crap, I just rebooted it and got on with it. I actually have only had one HR20 problem in 12 months so I tend not to worry about that either.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

JohnB1000 said:


> FraidKnot made me think of another point. HR20 may miss the odd recording (though mine never has) HR10 is missing every single HD MPEG4 recording + some of it's own.
> 
> When I checked my HR10 on Saturday it was frozen and required a reboot. First time I can remember that happening. However I didn't suddenly decide it was crap, I just rebooted it and got on with it. I actually have only had one HR20 problem in 12 months so I tend not to worry about that either.


seems something is going on with the hr10s right now, something in the stream as many people are having this freezing/reboot problem all of a sudden. many reports of reboots while watching/recording cbs ota.

very strange.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

DirecTV is gradually rolling out revised guide data that fixes the Channels I Get problem on the HR2x and H2x receivers. I know that when they tried to fix this a year or so ago, it completely bollixed up TiVos. Perhaps one needs to be running a certain software revision to tolerate the changed guide data?


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## Btrask (Oct 19, 2007)

Just got the HR21 a few days ago, and wow...

Screenshots and looking over the user manual online had led me to think this was a poor user interface, but using it drives me completely up the wall. Admittedly, these things are a matter of personal preference, so someone may hold the exact opposite opinion, and good for him, I guess--but I am flabbergasted at how poor it really is, and while others' opinions are certainly valid for them, I am surprised that anyone actually holds a contrary opinion because to me, the experience of using this thing is very much like pounding oneself in the head with a hammer; it feels so good when you stop. 

The guide being grid-based imposes a severe limitation on how far into the future one can conveniently look, which makes finding programs to record from the guide a mess. The guide is very slow to respond compared to the TiVo (that is, when using the TiVo type guide; when you use the DirecTV guide on a TiVo, it's really awful, too), and there seems to be no way to conveniently pop back to the present when you've browsed ahead other than to exit the guide and then go back in. And I don't know why they went with picture-in-a-window, which surrenders screen space in the guide, when the TiVo arrangement of superimposing the guide over a muted-tone picture works so well. If I had to use this as my primary access to DirecTV, I would go barking mad. 

One other thing that really puzzled me: the wishlist-type function is hobbled in that you can only enter a title or an actor if the DVR can find that title or actor in the guide--funny, because the whole notion of a wishlist, at least for me, is to be able to find things that are infrequent. For example, I love Harold Lloyd films, but since there aren't any in the guide right now, I can't enter a wishlist for him except through the keyword type search, which will generate more bad hits than good. 

But I think it's not really any one thing; it's the whole aggregate of the interface; it's a combination of little annoyances like having to toggle through resolutions and display modes together rather than being allowed to set-and-forget, and big annoyances like having a really, really lousy program guide. I am surprised that DirecTV didn't do a bit more work on this thing before dumping TiVo. With any luck, there'll be an MPEG-4 DirecTiVo someday...please, please, please....


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sounds like you should go to DBSTalk and look up the FAQs and Tips and Tricks documents. Many of the things you are talking about are covered in them and are just that you don't know how to utilize the system yet. I'll cover a couple of them below.



Btrask said:


> The guide being grid-based imposes a severe limitation on how far into the future one can conveniently look, which makes finding programs to record from the guide a mess.


There is no "Tivo style" guide. There is a reason why it's called the Tivo style and no other DVR has it. Sorry you miss it. But to quickly get the entire 2 week guide data up for a channel, bring up the guide, left arrow over the channel number and hit the INFO button. It will load up everything for that channel. And with one button record will make it very quick and very easy for you to set recordings or season passes. Not the same but something to try.



> The guide is very slow to respond compared to the TiVo (that is, when using the TiVo type guide;


Guide is much faster then any Tivo I've ever used (half a dozen models over 7 years). Sorry if yours is not. You can turn off the "animation" scolling in the settings | display section, that may speed it up more for you.



> And I don't know why they went with picture-in-a-window, which surrenders screen space in the guide, when the TiVo arrangement of superimposing the guide over a muted-tone picture works so well.


Personal preference. I wasn't sure about it at first either but have grown to really like it. By the way, guess you aren't aware that the Comcast Tivo does the same thing with picture in window so even newer Tivo models do it. Pretty much every DVR and receiver out there, cable/sat or otherwise does it. Only stand alone Tivos and their DirecTivo betheren don't. Obviously doesn't make it right or wrong, just that most do some sort of pic in window thing. And it's been a highly requested item to add to Tivo's for many years.



> One other thing that really puzzled me: the wishlist-type function is hobbled in that you can only enter a title or an actor if the DVR can find that title or actor in the guide--funny, because the whole notion of a wishlist, at least for me, is to be able to find things that are infrequent. For example, I love Harold Lloyd films, but since there aren't any in the guide right now, I can't enter a wishlist for him except through the keyword type search, which will generate more bad hits than good.


If you are an advanced wishlist user you will indeed find the HR20/21 lacking. Add your ideas for making the search better over at DBSTalk. They have already enhanced it based on user feedback.



> having to toggle through resolutions and display modes together rather than being allowed to set-and-forget


Certainly no reason to do that. Go into the Settings and the Display (or video, I forget) options. Uncheck the resolutions you don't want. Set Native to ON and you'll never have to manually change a resolution again. Or just set it to Native OFF and the only resolution to match your TV (say just 1080i). Either way it's set and forget.

Good luck and please stop by DBSTalk for help and voice your opinions, they don't like HR20 talk here.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

stevel said:


> But lrhorer, the HR10 doesn't have most of what you list either. The HR20 does have supported networking, supported drive expansion, searches filtered by genre, etc., and more of what you list. So what's your point?


I was under the impression the HR10 is a Series II unit, in which case it should have the things I mention, but either way, if there is no D* unit which has the features I mentioned, then D* is not worth having. My point is exactly what I said. If the HR-20 has the features I listed, then it's a decent device. Otherwise , it's a piece of crap. I'm not making any statement concerning the device itself, merely setting up the criteria by which to judge it. If the shoe fits, wear it. Otherwise, chunk it.

If the HR-10 doesn't have the features I mention, then it also is a piece of crap, in which this whole debate is worthless. If it is in fact the case, then arguing whether one unit or the other is relatively inferior is nothing but a debate over which turd stinks less. If both units have the features, then it's just a matter of personal preference, and although it's perfectly fine to express one's personal preference, arguing over it is pointless.

Either way, this poll is useless unless one unit has in large measure the feature set I outlined and the other does not.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The HR10 is a DirecTV TiVo, which means that NONE of the networking features available to S2 standalone TiVos is supported. One can add some similar features with hacks, but not all. The HR20 has some nice features the HR10 lacks, including supported network music and photos and Video On Demand downloads, plus free-space indicator, PIP and other things TiVo users have been asking for for years.

It appears that you are unfamiliar with both the HR10 and HR20 and therefore should abstain from participation in this thread. I have both boxes. Neither is "a piece of crap", neither is perfect.


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## CyberDC (Oct 4, 2007)

I own both, although I'm phasing out the HR-10. I can understand how those who have had Tivo for so long prefer it and some of it's features. It would have been great if the next step up would have been Tivo Units that were Mpeg 4 capable, but that's not the reality.

The elephant in the room that some seem to miss is that the HR 10 is *inherently inferior* because it can't get the same amount of HD channels. The perceived advantages of the HR 10 have more do with preference than anything else. I believe if you had this poll among all those who could try both units the HR 20 would win easily. Not just because it offers more channels but because it is easier to operate. The one touch record along with using the colored buttons to navigate is easy to pick up. *Most * dvr users see it as a VCR with a hard drive. They're not interested in wish-lists and suggestions. They want something that will record the shows they want to see. Very few would use suggestions, wish-lists, etc. if they were available to them.

So whether or not one is better in terms of features, interface, options, etc. is all a matter of perspective. As far as which one is overall better, that's a no-brainer. It's not Tivo's fault it can't display as much HD goodness, but it is a reality.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

CyberDC said:


> ... The perceived advantages of the HR 10 have more do with preference than anything else...


Very good point. It seems to me that the vast majority of the folks who believe the HR20 is inferior base that opinion on subjective features as opposed to overall functionality.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

stevel said:


> The HR10 is a DirecTV TiVo, which means that NONE of the networking features available to S2 standalone TiVos is supported.


I would also judge the standalone S2 TiVos to be at least on the edge of being crap, if not all the way there. That is why I never purchased an S2 TiVo. Instead I waited for something at least minimally decent. The TiVo S2 models don't qualify.



stevel said:


> One can add some similar features with hacks, but not all. The HR20 has some nice features the HR10 lacks, including supported network music and photos and Video On Demand downloads, plus free-space indicator, PIP and other things TiVo users have been asking for for years.


None of which are terribly important, IMO. I'll allow playing music and looking at photos on the TiVo using Galleon is a neat capability, but a TiVo without those features isn't significantly impaired. After all, any PC can do the same thing, and all my TiVo's have ordinary PCs sitting next to them. It's a cute bell, but bells and whistles do not a good platform make. The TiVo itself for the most part makes VOD irrelevant, so a DVR which gives up TiVo's features but gives one VOD is a little like giving up a 60 foot fishing boat for a Pocket Fisherman. I don't consider P in P to be particularly useful, let alone terribly desirable, and my TiVos are all esentially 100% full to the brim, virtually all the time. I don't need a free space indicator to tell me that.



stevel said:


> It appears that you are unfamiliar with both the HR10 and HR20 and therefore should abstain from participation in this thread. I have both boxes. Neither is "a piece of crap", neither is perfect.


I know almost nothing at all about either box, a fact which I thought I had made clear. Since this is America and an open forum, I am free to express my opinion anywhere I like. More importantly, I believe I am perhaps in some ways the best person to offer the feedback I did. I am perfectly impartial in this respect, because I have absolutely no emotional investment in either platform. What's more, as I thought I made clear more than once, I made no judgment either for or against either product. You assert neither is a piece of crap. If both meet the criteria I laid out in my earlier post, then I agree with you. If they both do not, then they are both a piece of crap. It's entirely up to you and the other HR-xx users to decide, not me. I merely offered the parameters by which they should be judged.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Btrask said:


> ... I am surprised that anyone actually holds a contrary opinion because to me, the experience of using this thing is very much like pounding oneself in the head with a hammer; it feels so good when you stop.


Hmmm.... Seems like an awful lot of new posters (i.e., less than 5 posts) suddenly coming here to post that the HR20 is a POS. Maybe RS4 has to create new user accounts to try and get the poll numbers up so he can't keep saying it's flawed.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> Hmmm.... Seems like an awful lot of new posters (i.e., less than 5 posts) suddenly coming here to post that the HR20 is a POS. Maybe RS4 has to create new user accounts to try and get the poll numbers up so he can't keep saying it's flawed.


Yeah, because it's absolutely not possible that there really are other people that don't like the HR20.

Nice catch.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

PIP on a tivo will turn out about as well as the grid guide. Please note, every tivo ever made has a grid guide. The Sony S1 was the only S1 that had it enabled because Sony paid the licensing fee -- GemStar owns the patent, btw. After years and years of begging, grid guide came to the S2's. And almost nobody uses it... it's slow and presents very little information. My parents are the only people I know that use the grid guide because they cannot read the tiny text of the list guide. (Of course, even after having an HDVR2 for 5 years, they still default to the newspaper tv listing instead of the onscreen guide.)

DTV receivers have PIP because they all have the same interface. Even the several year old R15 does that. It's yet more proof DTV doesn't understand DVR's. The entire foundation of the DVR world is never having to watch live tv. Yet, with the R15, HR20, and HR21 you cannot escape live tv; it's in a little box in the upper right corner of the screen (eating 25% of the screen space) *all the time*. I'd bet they tought about putting it on the aiming screen, too.


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## IMA_TV_ADDICT (Sep 11, 2006)

cramer said:


> PIP on a tivo will turn out about as well as the grid guide. Please note, every tivo ever made has a grid guide. The Sony S1 was the only S1 that had it enabled because Sony paid the licensing fee -- GemStar owns the patent, btw. After years and years of begging, grid guide came to the S2's. And almost nobody uses it... it's slow and presents very little information. My parents are the only people I know that use the grid guide because they cannot read the tiny text of the list guide. (Of course, even after having an HDVR2 for 5 years, they still default to the newspaper tv listing instead of the onscreen guide.)
> 
> DTV receivers have PIP because they all have the same interface. Even the several year old R15 does that. It's yet more proof DTV doesn't understand DVR's. *The entire foundation of the DVR world is never having to watch live tv. Yet, with the R15, HR20, and HR21 you cannot escape live tv*; it's in a little box in the upper right corner of the screen (eating 25% of the screen space) all the time. I'd bet they tought about putting it on the aiming screen, too.


If the entire foundation of the DVR world is never having to watch live TV, why are so many users clamoring for dual live buffer?

But more to the point, picture in guide and picture in list have nothing to do with live TV, it displays whatever is currently being output, which, for most users, is a recorded program.


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## MannyE (Dec 7, 2001)

I don't have the 20, but I have two R10s and they rock.

My friend has the 20 and he says it sucks. I honestly could give a crap which company prevails, I do know that Tivo's service is the best out there and that this whole argument thing would go away if Tivo and DirecTV would come to some agreement.

Of course, if Comcast and Tivo have success with the new Tivo HD stuff, and I decide to invest all my HD box dollars in Comcast instead of Dtv.... 

I suspect there are quite a few Dtv users waiting on the HD package war to start before making the jump... I sure am.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

IMA_TV_ADDICT said:


> If the entire foundation of the DVR world is never having to watch live TV, why are so many users clamoring for dual live buffer?


Frankly, I think it is because most users don't have a good understanding of the different way of watching TV offered by a TiVo. It's a different paradigm, and until one learns to think about what it means to have something offered on the channel lineup in a completely different way, they will continue to ask for features which make little or no sense and to make very limited use of the hardware they have.

Either that, or their hard drives are too small. Making any significant use of the features offered by the TiVo UI (or any sufficiently and acceptably able clone) requires a large hard drive. I recommend no less than 200 hours of storage in the user's preferred formats per DVR. With 1TB drives costing less than $350 and 500G drives costing less than $150, that's not difficult to achieve, even if one records nothing but HD. I'm looking to expand to 1000+ hours of 1080i HD, 6000+ hours of SD, but admittedly that way overkill for most people.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

badmonkey said:


> Very good point. It seems to me that the vast majority of the folks who believe the HR20 is inferior base that opinion on subjective features as opposed to overall functionality.


"Overall functionality" is nothing but a list of subjective features, unless you are counting things like menu scrolling speed, signal lock delay, number of keypresses to implement a particular feature, or drive storage space. Otherwise, all the opinions expressed here, either pro or con, and yours included, are nothing more or less than "subjective features". Your sticking a label of "overall functionality" on your particular list of subjective metrics doesn't change the intrinsic nature of the items on the list. It does, however, represent a straw man argument for your position.


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## snoots (Aug 14, 2002)

I base my opinion on the fact that I have two HD-TIVOs and one HR20 and it sucks. My HR20 loses channels in the guide and has to be rebooted to correct it. It tells me my dvr service is not active when I try to record. A reboot fixes that problem. It posts useless network server disconnect messages that REQUIRE a key press to close. Add insult to injury in that it won't play MP3s from any of my networked media servers which my PS3 and all other pcs in the house can playback. It has no Suggestions and cannot successfully record season passes ( series link ) if I tell it first run only. The only thing I will give it a good score on is the menus are quicker to display. Not easier to use just quicker. I have tried not to post negative messages about this box but each night I fight with it.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Snoots, your opinion definitely sounds bad but you're talking about one single HR20, I had an HR10 that did the same thing and I have two HR20's that have never had a problem.

My complaint is that people's bad systems don't mean that no one should buy the product especially given that it's the only way to get certain channels.


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## snoots (Aug 14, 2002)

That's true, I know everybodys experience is different and the hardware/software that make up the DVR's can fail differently or not at all in HD-TIVOs, HR20's or any other piece of electronic gear. A lot of us are brand loyal to TIVO and relearning a new product is going to take some time. I have had good luck with my HD-TIVOS but others have had problems. I miss being able to extract video and doubt that will ever be an option with the HR20. For me if I could extract video over the network, and the suggestion feature was added and they fix the bugs I will be happier.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

JohnB1000 said:


> ...
> My complaint is that people's bad systems don't mean that no one should buy the product especially given that it's the only way to get certain channels.


But what this poll and others clearly point out is that a large number of Tivo users don't like being forced into a second-rated box. 

This poll was badly written - from it's negative heading, to leaving out a whole sector of Tivo users who have considered getting the HR20, but opted out. But yet, we see 1/3 of the respondents feeling the HR20 is inferior, and other polls comparing Tivo to Direct's dvrs are even higher in the appreciation of Tivo.

You add in another 10% or so of those of us who have decided not to get the HR20 for various reasons and you have a significant number of folks who don't like the opportunities.

The point is that it is perfectly legitimate to warn a potential new user of the Direct dvrs that chances are fairly high that they won't like the box, and that they must live with it for 2 years or pay a stiff fine. In other words 'Let the buyer beware"!!


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> Yeah, because it's absolutely not possible that there really are other people that don't like the HR20.


The point was that these people supposedly have had a HR10 and now have a HR20, but yet never bothered to post anything here until now. Coincidence? Yeah right.  But it doesn't matter anyway, because even if the results are being 'padded', it's still clear that the majority don't agree with the lemmings


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

> a large number of Tivo users don't like being forced into a second-rated box.


The poll is irrelevant but, as an opinion, the part above is valid, however



> it is perfectly legitimate to warn a potential new user of the Direct dvrs that chances are fairly high that they won't like the box


Is totally an opinion. I am a TIVO user of 8 years and I am perfectly happy with the HR20 and am starting to prefer it to the HR10. I believe it's totally wrong to tell someone who stops by here that the "HR20 is a terrible machine" as many have done.

Of course nothing I say is going to change your one sided opinion


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

JohnB1000 said:


> Is totally an opinion. I am a TIVO user of 8 years and I am perfectly happy with the HR20 and am starting to prefer it to the HR10. I believe it's totally wrong to tell someone who stops by here that the "HR20 is a terrible machine" as many have done.


I believe it's totally wrong to suggest that someone offering an honest opinion is totally wrong. Tell it to the people on CNET who continue to rate the HR20 as crap even after DTV has had a year to work out the bugs and all the DTV advocates have declared their experience "trouble free".

DTV advocates like to say that the negative response to the HR20 is purely the result of "TiVo lemmings". Given that DirecTV has a customer base five times larger than TiVo, there should be five times more DirecTV advocates cancelling out the "TiVo lemmings".

So either DTV's product is not compelling enough to generate the advocates to offset the "lemmings" (five times less compelling sounds about right), or they really are being offset and the remainder are legitmate complaints from consumers who have given it an honest try and simply found it unsatisfactory.

But there's good news for the DTV advocates in this. Essentially everyone who tries the HR20 is stuck with it for two years. They're literally committed to DTV because of they want the programming, they have to have their sports, or they have no viable cable option. Over time many will get comfortable with it and some may even decide that they prefer it. But the preference of someone who has no choice really tells you nothing other than that they've become accustomed to their only option.


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## bwperez (Jan 4, 2005)

The poll was short of options. I voted that the HR20 wasn't an "inferior" product because it does record the shows I want to watch. Now, ask me which of the two products I prefer and my answer is the HR10-250. The interface is easier to use and I find that I miss the Tivo Suggestions, dual buffers and no show on the now playing screen. Give me a HR10-250 that gets the new HD programing and I'd glady dump the HR20.


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## madbeachcat (Jan 31, 2002)

nrc said:


> I believe it's totally wrong to suggest that someone offering an honest opinion is totally wrong. Tell it to the people on CNET who continue to rate the HR20 as crap even after DTV has had a year to work out the bugs and all the DTV advocates have declared their experience "trouble free".


I was curious about this statement about CNET's review, so I went to that site and checked on their review. While it wasn't the highest of ratings, the HR20 got a 7.4/10 and nowhere did I see them call it a piece of crap.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> But it doesn't matter anyway, because even if the results are being 'padded', it's still clear that the majority don't agree with the lemmings


Is it at all possible for you to respond without calling people "lemmings" or "zealots?" It really makes you sound like the "angry old guy" of the forum.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

madbeachcat said:


> I was curious about this statement about CNET's review, so I went to that site and checked on their review. While it wasn't the highest of ratings, the HR20 got a 7.4/10 and nowhere did I see them call it a piece of crap.


Check the reviews from the consumers. The average user review is 4.2 and it has not gotten any better since the unit was released. If anything it's gotten worse as users who are accustomed to the reliability of their TiVos have been left with little option but to switch.

Even the original reviewers were forced to adjust their review downard as the units problems became apparent. While they make excuses for the huge disparity in their review from the consumers' experience, every other DVR is subject to those factors and none of them shows such a huge gap.

Frankly, I think it a matter of priorities. The reviewers experienced a hand full of missed recordings and bumped the unit down less than half a point in their updated review. Users who absolutely rely on their DVR would consider missed recordings cause for a much bigger deduction.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Why don't the "HR20" zealots just run along and enjoy their awesome DVRs?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> Is it at all possible for you to respond without calling people "lemmings" or "zealots?" It really makes you sound like the "angry old guy" of the forum.


Only when those lemmings and zealots quit spreading their baseless FUD. 

And I am the 'angry old guy' of the forum who is tired of hearing the same old half truths and other crap spewed by those who think that their HR20 bashing crusade will somehow revive a dead platform (as far as DirecTV is concerned).


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## CosmoKramer (Jan 23, 2007)

Mark Lopez said:


> Only when those lemmings and zealots quit spreading their baseless FUD.
> 
> And I am the 'angry old guy' of the forum who is tired of hearing the same old half truths and other crap spewed by those who think that their HR20 bashing crusade will somehow revive a dead platform (as far as DirecTV is concerned).


Then go away!


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

CosmoKramer said:


> Then go away!


<---------

Sorry, I was here first.


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

In the grand scheme of things, remember it's only TV.......... I enjoy this forum very much, and I enjoy the HR20.

I wan to record and play back HD (NFL football). I don't have a lot of choices.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

Mark Lopez said:


> Only when those lemmings and zealots quit spreading their baseless FUD.
> 
> And I am the 'angry old guy' of the forum who is tired of hearing the same old half truths and other crap spewed by those who think that their HR20 bashing crusade will somehow revive a dead platform (as far as DirecTV is concerned).


+1

It seems the only reason I come here anymore is to see what disinformation is currently being spread.

I loved my TiVo's when they were relevant. I switched to the HR20 when the HR10 became irrelevant and, in my opinion, obsolete (when the new HD channels went live). I'm glad I did. The HR20 works great and has been more reliable than my HR10 ever was.

My only interest in posting in threads on this forum anymore is to set the record straight. Objectively, the HR20 is no more inferior than any TiVo product. The arguments that most people make against the HR20 are subjective in nature and reflect an individuals opinion only. There is nothing wrong with expressing ones opinion except when it is being expressed as a matter of fact that applies to all rather than just the poster.

The other thing that makes me laugh a bit is when someone who has never touched the HR20 makes a blanket statement about how poor the product is. How reliable is a subjective opinion from someone who has never used the 'subject' of his/her opinion???


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Inferior, no. I*'s jus* a choice be*ween differen* "s*yles." Unreliable, *ha*'s ano*her issue. Jus* reading *he complain*s and problems on *he HR20 boards even now and looking a* *his lis* of 60+ upda*es in jus* over a year (h**p://www.dbs*alk.com/showpos*.php?p=927168&pos*coun*=10) could easily make one *hink i* is unreliable wi*hou* ever owning one. I jus* go* one ins*alled las* week only because my wife wan*s Nip/*uck in HD. *he firs* recording i* made of las* *uesday's show i* only recorded *he firs* 20 minu*es which is why *he HR20 si*s in my basemen* a**ached *o my compu*er moni*or ra*her *hen *o our PDP. [QUO*E=badmonkey;5686493]*he o*her *hing *ha* makes me laugh a bi* is when someone who has never *ouched *he HR20 makes a blanke* s*a*emen* abou* how poor *he produc* is. How reliable is a subjec*ive opinion from someone who has never used *he 'subjec*' of his/her opinion???[/QUO*E]


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## madbeachcat (Jan 31, 2002)

nrc said:


> Check the reviews from the consumers. The average user review is 4.2 and it has not gotten any better since the unit was released. If anything it's gotten worse as users who are accustomed to the reliability of their TiVos have been left with little option but to switch.
> 
> Even the original reviewers were forced to adjust their review downard as the units problems became apparent. While they make excuses for the huge disparity in their review from the consumers' experience, every other DVR is subject to those factors and none of them shows such a huge gap.
> 
> Frankly, I think it a matter of priorities. The reviewers experienced a hand full of missed recordings and bumped the unit down less than half a point in their updated review. Users who absolutely rely on their DVR would consider missed recordings cause for a much bigger deduction.


Which is fine, but you did not say customer reveiws. You said CNET's reveiw. Somewhat misleading as far as I can see.

At any rate, anybodies opinion about the HR20 is fine by me. We all have own expectations and wants. For me the HR10 was fine and so is the HR20. It does what I want and gives me an outstanding picture. And the new MPEG4 channels, which I really wanted.

Peace...


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

The difference between the machines gets a bit smaller... 30 Second SKIP, a hidden feature on TiVo boxes, is coming to the HR20 in the future. For some users (the brave, the few, the cutting edge users) it's here now.

Some other nice new features being tested currently also (including the ability to play videos in the Media area, though that is still very early on feature wise...)


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

There are many things I like about the HR20, but in the end, it will always be an inferior DVR without DLB. I just can't switch to it from my HR10 as my primary DVR without this feature.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

I have 6 DirecTiVos and one shiny new HR20 installed last week. Yeah, the HR20 is different and the UI has some neat features, but overall feels less intuitive. I think the remote is a real POS, but thankfully my Harmony 880 helps in that regard. Of course, I kind of felt the same way about the peanut when it first arrived, but managed to survive a few years until I got the Harmony. 

Content is king, the UI feature set is maturing almost weekly. I expect to add a second HR20 today/tomorrow (it is already here and awaiting self install). As soon as I can do it for free/cheap I doubt I will have any DirecTiVos installed as they will be replaced by HR2* boxes.

If by some miracle TiVo and DirecTV release an MPEG4 compatible HD DVR, I will be all over it, but sitting on my hands and watching SD shows when I could be watching HD versions for the same price is just a poor value.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

Todd said:


> it will always be an inferior DVR without DLB. I just can't switch to it from my HR10 as my primary DVR without this feature.


The only time I use DLB is football season and this will be my first Sunday since getting the HR20. The "workaround" is an option, but feels weird after getting used to DLB.

What freaks me out more is the lack of "Live TV" button and the way you can enter the menu and what you were viewing stays on screen vs DirecTV Central popping up and stopping what you were watching.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

madbeachcat said:


> Which is fine, but you did not say customer reveiws. You said CNET's reveiw. Somewhat misleading as far as I can see.


Actually, I didn't, I said:



nrc said:


> Tell it to the people on CNET who continue to rate the HR20 as crap even after DTV has had a year to work out the bugs and all the DTV advocates have declared their experience "trouble free".


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

badmonkey said:


> +1
> 
> It seems the only reason I come here anymore is to see what disinformation is currently being spread.
> 
> ...


++1

I think the UI is only confusing to TIVO users, new users seem to have much less problem.

DLB, if you need it, is one of the legitimate complaints IMHO, I have just found that I really don't need it at all.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

JohnB1000 said:


> DLB, if you need it, is one of the legitimate complaints IMHO, I have just found that I really don't need it at all.


I think it's mostly the sports folks that use it. In the 7+ years of owning a Tivo (and since the DLB came about) I don't think I ever used it. However, I do recall threads where people had complaining about 'Live TV' issues and ended up getting flamed and told that Tivo was designed to record shows and watching any live TV was blasphemy. Go figure. <shrug>


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Mark Lopez said:


> I think it's mostly the sports folks that use it. In the 7+ years of owning a Tivo (and since the DLB came about) I don't think I ever used it. However, I do recall threads where people had complaining about 'Live TV' issues and ended up getting flamed and told that Tivo was designed to record shows and watching any live TV was blasphemy. Go figure. <shrug>


It is primarily for sports (as that is what most live TV watching is for many folks once they get used to having a DVR) but if you get used to using it for sports, you wind up using it for other viewing of live TV.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

fasTLane said:


> Why don't the "HR20" zealots just run along and enjoy their awesome DVRs?


LOL. This thread is still going?

Actually I will and am enjoying my HR20 right now. Watching all kinds of Sunday Ticket with Interactive player updates flashing on my screen all the time. Love it. And later I'll watch my Hockey team in HD which I couldn't before. Oh, and I have about 20 hours of HD shows waiting for me to watch at any time, all recorded just fine.

I'll fulfill your wish. Goodbye.


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## snoots (Aug 14, 2002)

Bet your 20 hours didn't come from suggestions or series link unless you have 20 hours of a mixture of 1st run and repeats.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

snoots said:


> Bet your 20 hours didn't come from suggestions or series link unless you have 20 hours of a mixture of 1st run and repeats.


Why waste time with suggestions of programs some artificial intelligence thinks I might like?!? After the first day of running a TiVo box in this house I turned off the suggestions feature and never looked back. If I had left it on, it would have been offering up crap like Barney, Arthur, and a bunch of Spongebob Squarepants because that was what my daughter used to watch on *my* TV when I was at work. On the other side, if it took my viewing habits into account, it would have been offering some, uh, interesting, choices to my daughter that I most certainly didn't want her to see.

Actually, if you are a fan of suggestions, try checking out this suggestion: watch the movie Click and consider the ramifications of being on 'auto-fast forward'.  

As to first run vs. repeat, my box records FIRST RUN only just fine, and has plenty of programming from series links on it, or would have if I didn't watch the stuff almost as quickly as it's recorded. Thanks to 30 second slip, I get through 1 hour worth of program in about 40 minutes. 30 minute shows in about 20 mins. So most nights I'm still left looking for *quality* programming to spend time recording, and again, there's no way I want software picking for me. I'll stick to reading reviews and recommendations from others and make use of my own intelligence to get the best of the best (or the best of the worst for the shows that I readily admit are trash but I watch anyway).


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## snoots (Aug 14, 2002)

I'll retry settings in series link, mine seems to mix up reruns with first runs. As to suggestions, I enjoyed having programming similar to things i manually recorded or similar to season passes I had setup. Not always things I would watch but often good choices.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

bdowell said:


> Why waste time with suggestions of programs some artificial intelligence thinks I might like?!? After the first day of running a TiVo box in this house I turned off the suggestions feature and never looked back.


I agree. I barely have enough time to watch the stuff I want (and chose). I don't need some box trying to guess what I might like.

I'll bet half the HR20 bashers who use the lack of suggestions excuse to call it inferior, also have it turned off.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Figured I'd post this here.

We have a bad hard drive (def a certain spot) that starts to freeze up/pixelate/skip forward like 10 min.

So they are sending us a brand new unit for free (well w/ the protection program)

So hopefully the new one works fine.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

snoots said:


> I'll retry settings in series link, mine seems to mix up reruns with first runs. As to suggestions, I enjoyed having programming similar to things i manually recorded or similar to season passes I had setup. Not always things I would watch but often good choices.


If you are the single user of a box, I can see suggestions being somewhat useful, but at the same time Netflix makes suggestions to me (they call them recommendations) that I most definitely don't want to see. Because I have varying tastes and watch a lot of different movies, and also because I've rented some titles that friends wanted to see (which I'd take to their house so they could watch as I visited them) the suggestions set for me was just completely off. I'm not a fan of M. Night whatever his name is, but my (former co-worker) friend's husband loved that stuff. Get a few movies that he wanted to see and the recommendations for the next several weeks would be filled with more of same. Pass.

On the series link issue, I had minor issues with that when I *first* got the box online, but that is somewhat normal. The box has to learn what shows you want and it will record some non-new programs as it gets the series links going fully.

After that initial period, no more problems really. At least not through the last several revisions (software versions) and releases.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Mark Lopez said:


> I agree. I barely have enough time to watch the stuff I want (and chose). I don't need some box trying to guess what I might like.
> 
> I'll bet half the HR20 bashers who use the lack of suggestions excuse to call it inferior, also have it turned off.


For some people it may be a great feature, and if you've got a ton of space (which implies you've hacked the box, or bought a hacked box, not one that was 'as shipped') that you don't mind letting go over to suggestions I can see a lot of usefulness to the feature, but again if you share the box among many family members, or if you just don't have predictable tastes, then suggestions just don't seem that useful to me.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Why were all my "t's" replaced with "*'s" ... very weird tttttttt. And those numbers after the name in the


> box. Every message was like that. Now it was just mine. Must be my HR20.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## snoots (Aug 14, 2002)

I agree with most of the points brought up in response to the "suggestions" I mentioned. My only further comment is that if it were added to the HR20 many people would likely use it and those who don't like the feature COULD TURN IT OFF OR NOT ENABLE IT. Perhaps a future firmware option; Kind of a best of both worlds thing


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

incog-neato said:


> Why were all my "t's" replaced with "*'s"


You must have posted in the middle of the vB software update.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> Only when those lemmings and zealots quit spreading their baseless FUD.
> 
> And I am the 'angry old guy' of the forum who is tired of hearing the same old half truths and other crap spewed by those who think that their HR20 bashing crusade will somehow revive a dead platform (as far as DirecTV is concerned).


You act like there's a huge amount of people here posting all kinds of lies about the HR20 ...what exactly are you looking at? I realize that the main target for 'Team HR20' is RS4 who unlike many of us, doesn't actually own an HR20.

But I don't see all these "half truths" you believe are part of a crusade. There are people with honest opinions about the box ...which they are entitled to ....but the only 'crusade' I see isn't from them.


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## DeDondeEs (Feb 20, 2004)

I have a HR-10-250, about a year ago I moved, canceled my DirecTV service and went with cable and got an SA-8300HD. Last week I got an offer from DirecTV to come back and they would upgrade me for free, so I took it. 
On Saturday I got an HR-21 installed (I don't care about no OTA), and I love it. So far I like it better than the DirecTivo, and waaay better than the SA-8300HD. It hasn't messed up any recordings yet, but so far I am impressed with the speed, functionality, and interface, it has all of the features I want. But out of all of them, Tivo by far has the best user forum .


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

DeDondeEs said:


> ...On Saturday I got an HR-21 installed (I don't care about no OTA), and I love it. So far I like it better than the DirecTivo, and waaay better than the SA-8300HD. It hasn't messed up any recordings yet, but so far I am impressed with the speed, functionality, and interface, it has all of the features I want. But out of all of them, Tivo by far has the best user forum .


Here are a couple of resources that will help you make the transition...

● 144 Undocumented HD DVR PLUS Tips & Tricks

● TiVo Users Survival Guide

See the _HD DVR FAQ_ for much more.

Did you download the new release this weekend that add the backdoor for a real TiVo style Skip and the ability to play videos from your PC?

- Craig


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## yoV6cam (Dec 28, 2001)

cool, but what was ur deal to get the upgrade? I need 4 hd dvrs and only have 2 hr10-250's so they said they'll only offer me 99 plus shipping for those 2, the other two have to be retail. 

btw the rep actually argued that I only have 1 hr10-250, I told her i'm using the second one right now!


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## DeDondeEs (Feb 20, 2004)

yoV6cam said:


> cool, but what was ur deal to get the upgrade? I need 4 hd dvrs and only have 2 hr10-250's so they said they'll only offer me 99 plus shipping for those 2, the other two have to be retail.
> 
> btw the rep actually argued that I only have 1 hr10-250, I told her i'm using the second one right now!


Mine was a customer retention upgrade. My 2 year commitment was up and I was calling them to cancel my service because they were about to take my account out of suspension, then they offered to upgrade my HD and Standard DirecTivo for free. I didn't get any programming deals, so as far as a CR deal it was so/so, but it worked for me and I am much happier being back with DirecTV.


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## nuke (Sep 8, 2003)

The HR20 looks like poo on OTA HD channels that look fantastic on the HR10-250. 

The OTA and MPEG2 channels look like they are being severely and heavily filtered in the HR20. It is either a feature of their chipset, or an intentional setting applied to soften the difference between hi-bandwidth OTA and their lower bandwidth MPEG4 stream.

The net effect is that OTA looks identical to the MPEG4 at reduced bitrates. It should NOT, but it does. Hi bitrate OTA HD should look great and a lot better than reduced rate MPEG4. 

I'm guessing that drives down the D* complaint calls from Joe SixPack blinking between channels and noticing the difference.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> You act like there's a huge amount of people here posting all kinds of lies about the HR20 ...what exactly are you looking at? I realize that the main target for 'Team HR20' is RS4 who unlike many of us, doesn't actually own an HR20.
> 
> But I don't see all these "half truths" you believe are part of a crusade. There are people with honest opinions about the box ...which they are entitled to ....but the only 'crusade' I see isn't from them.


It is not a huge amount of people, just mainly the the same lemmings and zealots (which is why I call them that) who post often enough (and possibly under different names ) that make it sound like the HR20 is a POS. As already stated by many, it's mostly personal preference. But some take it as an all or nothing situation (thus the zealot tag).

As for the half truths, there are things like claiming no DLB makes it worthless, when there is a simple work around. And the gripes about the picture in guide (or whatever it's called) but yet was on the top of the Tivo feature wishlist since day one. Someone even claimed the HR20 was slower then the HR10, which unless his box is broken is just not right.

I'm all for opinions, but when someone states something as if it's a fact, then that is a crusade. Especially when their goal is to try and scare people away from the unit in the hopes that if they can get enough people to be fellow lemmings, that DirecTV will change their mind and bring Tivo back (which IMO will never happen at this point in the game).


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## nuke (Sep 8, 2003)

It's poo.

Anyone who doesn't agree is brainwashed or working for D*.


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## madbeachcat (Jan 31, 2002)

nuke said:


> It's poo.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't agree is brainwashed or working for D*.


I am not brainwashed, nor do I work for D*. I'm am also not mindlessly stuck on a box whose obsolescence is here and now.


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## Indiana627 (Jan 24, 2003)

nuke said:


> The HR20 looks like poo on OTA HD channels that look fantastic on the HR10-250.
> 
> The OTA and MPEG2 channels look like they are being severely and heavily filtered in the HR20. It is either a feature of their chipset, or an intentional setting applied to soften the difference between hi-bandwidth OTA and their lower bandwidth MPEG4 stream.
> 
> ...


Oh brothers, what a load of... Just one more line people tell themselves to back up their position.

I did comparisons up the wazzu between my OTA and MPEG4 locals when I first got my HR20. To my eye there is no difference at all. I still have to record my CBS OTA due to LIN TV not playing nice and I can't see any difference between the CBS HD shows and the NBC, ABC, FOX HD shows I record in MPEG4 from D* (other than the larger hard drive space the OTA shows take up).

I upgraded from an HR10 and have never looked back. Never missed a recording due to the HR20's fault. Never had a blank recording. I've only had pure HDTV enjoyment.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> I'm all for opinions, but when someone states something as if it's a fact, then that is a crusade. Especially when their goal is to try and scare people away from the unit in the hopes that if they can get enough people to be fellow lemmings, that DirecTV will change their mind and bring Tivo back (which IMO will never happen at this point in the game).


http://oceania.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=230991

_EchoStar will continue to pursue its appeal of the patent-infringement judgment that TiVo won http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6470703.html against it, according to Ergen.

"We believe we're right, and we don't believe we infringed," Ergen said. "Win or lose [the appeal] we plan to have conversation with TiVo about how we can work together."_

I wonder what the chances are that Dish will ultimately become TiVo's partner for satellite TV?


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> As for the half truths, there are things like claiming no DLB makes it worthless, when there is a simple work around. And the gripes about the picture in guide (or whatever it's called) but yet was on the top of the Tivo feature wishlist since day one. Someone even claimed the HR20 was slower then the HR10, which unless his box is broken is just not right.
> 
> I'm all for opinions, but when someone states something as if it's a fact, then that is a crusade.


when people say "no dlb make it worthless" and gripe "the 'pig' sucks!" those are opinions. i dunno how things like that can even be stated as fact.

sounds like you have a beef with 1 or 2 people here, and the rest of us have to suffer through the 'battle.' too bad for us, lol.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

rickmeoff said:


> sounds like you have a beef with 1 or 2 *dozen* people here, and the rest of us have to suffer through the 'battle.' too bad for us, lol.


*FYP*


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

madbeachcat said:


> I am not brainwashed, nor do I work for D*. I'm am also not mindlessly stuck on a box whose obsolescence is here and now.


QFT -


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## nuke (Sep 8, 2003)

Indiana627 said:


> I did comparisons up the wazzu between my OTA and MPEG4 locals when I first got my HR20. To my eye there is no difference at all..


Gee, do you understand that they ***SHOULD*** look different?

The OTA signal from a good station that's been recoded to a lower bitrate will suffer degradation from the transcoding process.

The HR20 does a FAR better job on SD material.

But the HD quality is poorer on good OTA material and visibly so.

It's just how it is.


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## kmramos (Dec 2, 2001)

Indiana627 said:


> I did comparisons up the wazzu between my OTA and MPEG4 locals when I first got my HR20. To my eye there is no difference at all.


Yeah, that's really not the point he's making. He's saying that the HR20 is doing something with the OTA signal and therefore it looks like poo. Or filtered poo. Or MPEG4 locals.

If I get the HR20 on Friday, I'll have it running in tandem with the HR10. After I calibrate my TV, I can directly compare what the HR10 is doing/not doing to OTA broadcasts vs. the HR20.


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## pmturcotte (May 7, 2001)

kmramos said:


> Yeah, that's really not the point he's making. He's saying that the HR20 is doing something with the OTA signal and therefore it looks like poo. Or filtered poo. Or MPEG4 locals.
> 
> If I get the HR20 on Friday, I'll have it running in tandem with the HR10. After I calibrate my TV, I can directly compare what the HR10 is doing/not doing to OTA broadcasts vs. the HR20.


Please post your results when you do, thanks!


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## Indiana627 (Jan 24, 2003)

nuke said:


> Gee, do you understand that they ***SHOULD*** look different?





kmramos said:


> Yeah, that's really not the point he's making. He's saying that the HR20 is doing something with the OTA signal and therefore it looks like poo. Or filtered poo. Or MPEG4 locals.


I compared my MPEG4 HD locals on the HR20 with the OTA signal using my TV's internal ATSC tuner, so the HR20 was not involved in the process when I was looking at my OTA channels. I don't know how I can say it any clearer, but to me, there was/is no difference between my OTA signals as viewed with my TV's ATSC tuner and the MPEG4 HD locals as viewed with the HR20.

It's just how it is.

(And the HR20's OTA tuner is much better than the HR10s. With same antenna sitting in the same position, my OTAs come in much better than they did on the HR10.)


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

pmturcotte said:


> Please post your results when you do, thanks!


+1


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

Do I think the HR20 is an inferior product? Well let's see, Monday my wife tells me all the channels had suddenly gone black and the box had turned into a zombie yet again. Yet another reboot (I reboot once a week at least anyway or it will freeze up) and everything is back to normal, or so I think. I go to watch Prison Break which it had recorded earlier and under my list of shows that have been recorded it's gone, along with everything else on the list. That's the second time I've had that happen since I got the stupid box in August. 

It's also still having problems only recording first run shows. It has a bad habit of recording old stuff and trying to tell me it's new, even though I've seen it before. I also hate how it doesn't seem to respond right away to remote commands. I never know if when I press a button the machine got it or not. Yea, I know I can turn on sounds so I'll know that the machine received the command, but I don't like using the sounds. The ff button on the remote is now sounding like it's going to fall out any day now too. It gives new meaning to the old term "clicker". Yea, real great quality unit you've got here Directv. 

At least I still have my HD-Tivo, you know, a REAL DVR that actually keeps the shows I record running on my other tv. In the 3 years I've had that one, it's never, repeat, never lost all of the shows in the Now playing list. It's also smart enough to actually record first run shows only when I tell it to. I also miss having Wishlists a lot with the HR20. I really don't see why they can't implement a similar feature on it, but then again, I doubt it'd work anyway even if they did.

To be sure, there ARE things about the HR20 that are better than the HD-Tivo. 90 minute buffer, free space indicator, and not having to have it plugged into a phone line. These are great, but I don't care in the least if the machine isn't reliable, and so far it's proven to be far from it for me.


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## garbec (May 14, 2004)

After 2 months of using both (I kept the HR10 stacked on top of the new HR20), here are my thoughts. I generally use the HR20 for MGEG-4 & surfing (80% usage) and I use the HR10 to record Leno, NFL, and most other non-MPEG-4 stuff (20% usage).

It has been stated that dual buffers is only for sports. I disagree. When surfing I will often pause a program during a commercial, while I surf with the other tuner, returning later to resume. This is inconvenient on the HR20.

User Interface: The HR10 is way more intuitive. The HR10 remote is way better. But, the most important UI issue is speed. So even though I hate to say it, overall I like the HR20 UI better. Wow, I can't believe I just said that.

Suggestions: I love suggestions! Since I began using TIVO (4 years ago?, 3 generations of products back), I have meticulously rated programs, to train the suggestions. Yes, I sometimes find weird stuff there (Spanish, cartoons, etc), but overall, suggestions is very good at finding stuff similar to what I watch. It often finds stuff that I would have recorded if I had know about. It is essentially an assistance who looks for stuff that I might otherwise miss. It pre-screens stuff for me. To this day, I love looking in there and discovering what it has found for me. I am VERY bothered that suggestions can not search MPEG-4 material. I feel cheated to lose a feature I liked so much.

So overall, I have converted with only slight regret. The MPEG-4 channels make it a no-brainer. But, I definitely want Dual buffers and Suggestions back!

garbec
www.wetdesert.net


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

garbec said:


> User Interface: The HR10 is way more intuitive. The HR10 remote is way better. But, the most important UI issue is speed. So even though I hate to say it, overall I like the HR20 UI better. Wow, I can't believe I just said that


Good summary but do you really think the UI is that much more intuitive, I wonder if you/I are just more used to the TIVO one and if we only ever used an HR20 we'd be fine ??? It's genuine question. The more I use the HR20 the more I find little TIVO things inconvenient (for example 2 presses to get to Now Playing, turning off the recorded show I'm watching to view the guide being the two obvious one's)


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## garbec (May 14, 2004)

JohnB1000 said:


> Good summary but do you really think the UI is that much more intuitive, I wonder if you/I are just more used to the TIVO one and if we only ever used an HR20 we'd be fine ???


I do think the Tivo UI is more intuitive. One of the reasons is how easy it is to learn. I have learned the HR20 much faster than my wife and kids, because I am a geek. I studied the remote instructions and read FAQs on dbstalk. And I have needed to show my family how to use it. The TIVO interface required no manual. I remembered a guy on the internet saying that TIVO had a great WAF (wife acceptance factor). I think TIVO was easy enough that many non-geeks would use it. The HR20 does not accomplish the same.

Remote: The peanut remote won awards for being easy to use. The number of buttons, size variance, and shape all made it intuitive and easy to learn. The HR20 remote requires more memorization. You are correct that after you have memorized it, it works, but it is not as easy to learn. Example 1: When you hold the peanut, your thumb falls right on the yellow Play/pause key, which is the most often used key. On the HR20 remote, your thumb falls on the SELECT key, and you have to reach upwards to get to play or pause. I often hit select instead of play on the HR20 by mistake. Example 2: If you dont know what to do on the TIVO remote, you hit the TIVO key at the top, and it will walk you through the decisions.

I don't deny that some keystrokes are faster on the HR20, but I stick by my observation that TIVO is easier to use and learn, especially for the masses.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

All good points. My only observation is that the handful of people I know whose first DVR was an HR20/21 really haven't had any problems with the UI. Funnily my wife has avoided the HR20 but this week decided to try it out and now uses it all the time (leaving me with nothing to watch )


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

I will keep the Tivo on principle to use for HD locals only if/when it comes to that and wait for any Tivo agreements in the future; cable, Dish, Direct or otherwise... end of story.


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## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

kbohip said:


> Do I think the HR20 is an inferior product? Well let's see, Monday my wife tells me all the channels had suddenly gone black and the box had turned into a zombie yet again. Yet another reboot (I reboot once a week at least anyway or it will freeze up) and everything is back to normal, or so I think. I go to watch Prison Break which it had recorded earlier and under my list of shows that have been recorded it's gone, along with everything else on the list. That's the second time I've had that happen since I got the stupid box in August.
> 
> It's also still having problems only recording first run shows. It has a bad habit of recording old stuff and trying to tell me it's new, even though I've seen it before. I also hate how it doesn't seem to respond right away to remote commands. I never know if when I press a button the machine got it or not. Yea, I know I can turn on sounds so I'll know that the machine received the command, but I don't like using the sounds. The ff button on the remote is now sounding like it's going to fall out any day now too. It gives new meaning to the old term "clicker". Yea, real great quality unit you've got here Directv.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that you lost all of your shows. I'm curious, are you running on the national release software?

Scooter


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## snoots (Aug 14, 2002)

I have to use my HD-TIVO for anything I really care about, the HR20 I use for watching in the living room due to the MP4 channels. Mine misses 1st run vs repeats also, it also gives blank screens after tuning to channels and I have to reboot it quite a bit also to restore OTA channels that disappear.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

kbohip said:


> Do I think the HR20 is an inferior product? Well let's see, Monday my wife tells me all the channels had suddenly gone black and the box had turned into a zombie yet again. Yet another reboot (I reboot once a week at least anyway or it will freeze up) and everything is back to normal, or so I think. I go to watch Prison Break which it had recorded earlier and under my list of shows that have been recorded it's gone, along with everything else on the list. That's the second time I've had that happen since I got the stupid box in August.
> 
> It's also still having problems only recording first run shows. It has a bad habit of recording old stuff and trying to tell me it's new, even though I've seen it before. I also hate how it doesn't seem to respond right away to remote commands. I never know if when I press a button the machine got it or not. Yea, I know I can turn on sounds so I'll know that the machine received the command, but I don't like using the sounds. The ff button on the remote is now sounding like it's going to fall out any day now too. It gives new meaning to the old term "clicker". Yea, real great quality unit you've got here Directv.
> 
> At least I still have my HD-Tivo, you know, a REAL DVR that actually keeps the shows I record running on my other tv. In the 3 years I've had that one, it's never, repeat, never lost all of the shows in the Now playing list.


Sorry you are having problems, but if you look at just the first page of this forum, you will see just as many horror stories with the HR-10. Shorted recordings and deletions of newer recorded shows vice oldest when space is needed happens so often (on both of my HR-10s) that I have given up on expecting anything to actually be recorded in whole or saved properly.

The bottom line is where the HR20 is getting the remaining bugs worked out, the HR10 is acquiring more.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

I don't know if "inferior" is the right word w.r.t. the HR20. However, the R15 is, hands down, inferior to tivos. Seriously. People call the DTivo slow; they should use an R15 for a few hours... at least the tivo will scroll the guide without filling the whole thing in, and doesn't get progressively slower the further into the future you go. The (IR) remote has to be aimed pretty much directly at the thing to work correctly -- the tivo works no matter where I point the remote. 30s _slip_ sounds neat until you actually have to sit through it; with 30s _skip_, I can forward over 6min of commercials in less than a second -- even if it is a backdoor. No DLB is Very. Anoying. (the list gets much much longer, btw.)

On the other hand, it does support an RF remote (not included), and shows disk usage. About the only thing I really like is the things satellite setup -- which you'll only be doing once; unless your installer is too lazy and/or blind to look at your dish. I hope the HR20/21 is better than this d***ed thing, or I'll be living with OTA HD for the rest of my life. (TWC's incompetance and growing SDV makes cable a non-option.)


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> Sorry you are having problems, but if you look at just the first page of this forum, you will see just as many horror stories with the HR-10. Shorted recordings and deletions of newer recorded shows vice oldest when space is needed happens so often (on both of my HR-10s) that I have given up on expecting anything to actually be recorded in whole or saved properly.
> 
> The bottom line is where the HR20 is getting the remaining bugs worked out, the HR10 is acquiring more.


ive found that sometimes their working out these remaining bugs causes new bugs to crop up. plus, theyve been working the bugs out for over a year now, how much longer is it gonna take?

imo the hr10 and hr20 are comparable in many ways and are both good units. lately tho, my hr20 has been having probs with recordings just no being there, ie. it shows its been recorded, but whne i go to play it it simply asks if i wanna delete ---and i havent watched the recording!

my unit was more reliable a couple months ago, and like a few others lately, the new dloads are making it less reliable.

if dtv doesnt have the kinks worked out by ye, ill probably swap out my hr20s and hr10s for the tivo hd units and go with either bright house, or fios. since prices have dropped and tivo is again offering lifetime, its worth it (now, lol).

however, hopefully i can remain with dtv and not go through the hassle.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

rickmeoff said:


> ive found that sometimes their working out these remaining bugs causes new bugs to crop up. plus, theyve been working the bugs out for over a year now, how much longer is it gonna take?


Well, having owned a Tivo (every flavor) since day one, and here it is 8 years later and it still has (major) bugs, I would not say a year is much to ***** about considering most of the HR20 problems have been resolved and at least they are actually actively working on fixing them.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

A bit of hyperbole (not that aI really care which is better or not). Just look at the "software update of the week" thread on DBSTalk (up to what, 15 national updates not counting the 50+ "CE"'s in the last 15 months each fixing numerous of problem, some major and some obscure) and EACH of those single threads for just ONE NATIONAL UPDATE contain more problems and bugs then probably the last year of HR10 threads combined. It's obvious all you're trying to do is troll this board (when was the last positive, helpful, or informative message you have posted?) but at least be accurate. I dare you to take every firmware realease from the HR20/21(even just from the NATIONAL releases, the ones that are supposed to actually FIX the problems found in CE) and list the "issues" it is supposed to resolve and then state how many problems there are. I can tell you for certain, the number of D* swapped & replaced HR20/1's due to problems in it's 1st year has exceeded HR10s over it's entire lifetime.

UHOH, here come the DBSTALK attack dogs - duck!



Mark Lopez said:


> Sorry you are having problems, but if you look at just the first page of this forum, you will see just as many horror stories with the HR-10. Shorted recordings and deletions of newer recorded shows vice oldest when space is needed happens so often (on both of my HR-10s) that I have given up on expecting anything to actually be recorded in whole or saved properly.
> 
> The bottom line is where the HR20 is getting the remaining bugs worked out, the HR10 is acquiring more.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

To even mention the notion of the 50+ CE's just shows the angle you are just trying to push. If you could see into the BETA forums of the "beloved" TiVo software....

As for the national releases... so what? 
If we were to take the threads here for the single 6.3e release, in relation to the volume of posters... I wouldn't be too surprised if the percentages come out to be pretty high.

If you dig into those HR20 threads, you will find that there are not a lot of "unique" issues, some are "one-offs" others have several people reporting that they are having the same issue... which is the specific INTENT of those threads.... We actively solicit reports of issues, to gather more data... to help get the problem resolved. Which is EXTREMELY different then here.

A MAJOR portion of the population a DBSTalk, is participating SPECIFICALLY to help address issues and report them. So a direct comparison to this board and DBSTalk, is not accurate.

But hey... each to their own opinion on what it all means.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> Well, having owned a Tivo (every flavor)


How do you like your Series 3?


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

LOL, what took you so long? OH MY god! To even !MENTION! the notion of CE! Such blasphemy! Blah blah blah blah. You must have your "Please don't blasphemize the HR20" keyword scanner running full force.

I was really just testing out the anti-HRxx defense forces response time. Just waiting for the 2nd wave coming in soon. They're fueling up the F15's now. Heading down into the shelter. I love when you guys come charging out of your bunkers in defense of one of your own. Especially when the top dawg heads the attack. 



ebonovic said:


> To even mention the notion of the 50+ CE's just shows the angle you are just trying to push. If you could see into the BETA forums of the "beloved" TiVo software....
> 
> As for the national releases... so what?
> If we were to take the threads here for the single 6.3e release, in relation to the volume of posters... I wouldn't be too surprised if the percentages come out to be pretty high.
> ...


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> Well, having owned a Tivo (every flavor) since day one, and here it is 8 years later and it still has (major) bugs, I would not say a year is much to ***** about considering most of the HR20 problems have been resolved and at least they are actually actively working on fixing them.


i just wish that my hr20 stops recording series links that i cant watch. my hr10 (and 5 tivo units combined) has done this maybe 3 times total in several years. my hr20 has probably missed 10 programs in 6 months.

with all the new hd channels, theres no contest to which unit i prefer. but its unacceptable for the most basic function ---recording---to fail more than every now and then.

ill ***** until this stops.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

incog-neato said:


> LOL, what took you so long? OH MY god! To even !MENTION! the notion of CE! Such blasphemy! Blah blah blah blah. You must have your "Please don't blasphemize the HR20" keyword scanner running full force.
> 
> I was really just testing out the anti-HRxx defense forces response time. Just waiting for the 2nd wave coming in soon. They're fueling up the F15's now. Heading down into the shelter. I love when you guys come charging out of your bunkers in defense of one of your own. Especially when the top dawg heads the attack.


Cute... Do you want to have a discussion... or act like a 5yr old.

And by the way... shame you continue to attack the posters, and not the actuall facts/contents of the discussion...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

rickmeoff said:


> i just wish that my hr20 stops recording series links that i cant watch.


What do you mean: Series Links you can't watch ?

Series Links are channel specific....
If you have an AutoRecord on a Keyword, then yes... that could result in in recordings on channels you don't receive... (same would happen on a TiVo unless you manually set your Channels I Receive list)... and with regards to the HR20, the CIG feature has started to take effect... not complete, but is starting.


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## snoots (Aug 14, 2002)

So far my experience is my HR20 works ok for a standard HD receiver but is unable to truly function as a Digital Video Recorder. I have rebooted my HR20-100 more times since I got it than over several years with my TIVOs. It skips recordings of series links if I try to specify first run only, it tells me that my dvr service is not active, it posts media server disconnects every time one of my network pcs is restarted and you have to press a key for the message to go away, it has frozen when trying to "chase" a recording in progress causing me to lose the last 15 minutes and I could not watch the recording or the live show. All in all a very poor product, I will admit the faster menus are nice but for me it boils down to a way to watch more live HD channels not a way to time shift television which is what it should have been designed to do.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> What do you mean: Series Links you can't watch ?
> 
> Series Links are channel specific....
> If you have an AutoRecord on a Keyword, then yes... that could result in in recordings on channels you don't receive... (same would happen on a TiVo unless you manually set your Channels I Receive list)... and with regards to the HR20, the CIG feature has started to take effect... not complete, but is starting.


series links ive had for months that have recorded without problems. now, they show theyve been recorded...........heck ive even watched them while theyre recording...........yet i go to watch them later and they immediately ask if i want to delete without my being able to watch anything.

ive read on the other forum where this problem isnt something thats isolated which made me feel a little better. but when it happens it drives me nuts (thak god it doesnt happen very often).


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

rickmeoff said:


> series links ive had for months that have recorded without problems. now, they show theyve been recorded...........heck ive even watched them while theyre recording...........yet i go to watch them later and they immediately ask if i want to delete without my being able to watch anything.
> 
> ive read on the other forum where this problem isnt something thats isolated which made me feel a little better. but when it happens it drives me nuts (thak god it doesnt happen very often).


Blank recordings basically...

No it is not "isolated" but it is also isn't wide spread/rampet either.
They have addressed that in the lastest CE cycle.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

snoots said:


> So far my experience is my HR20 works ok for a standard HD receiver but is unable to truly function as a Digital Video Recorder. I have rebooted my HR20-100 more times since I got it than over several years with my TIVOs. It skips recordings of series links if I try to specify first run only, it tells me that my dvr service is not active, ... clip ..., it has frozen when trying to "chase" a recording in progress causing me to lose the last 15 minutes and I could not watch the recording or the live show. All in all a very poor product, I will admit the faster menus are nice but for me it boils down to a way to watch more live HD channels not a way to time shift television which is what it should have been designed to do.


If it is occuring that often, with all the other pieces that you listed, you may have a faulty unit.

As for skipping first runs...
What shows? Are you absolutely positive that it was a first run.
As the common issue with the links, is it recording REPEATS when you set it to first run... we have not seen many posts of the opposite... or it just skipping a first run.



> it posts media server disconnects every time one of my network pcs is restarted and you have to press a key for the message to go away


I clipped out that section..

The on screen dialog, is normal processing for the unit (not a bug).
It will stay on the screen for several minutes, but it should timeout. If it stays up for more then 5 minutes... then something else is going on, and would go back to my first point, that you may in fact have a bad unit.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> Blank recordings basically...
> 
> No it is not "isolated" but it is also isn't wide spread/rampet either.
> They have addressed that in the lastest CE cycle.


im pretty sure theyve addressed it in the past too, lol. hope they get it right this time.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Lighten up son, have some fun. Learn how to laugh and smile. All of life doesn't revolve around defending the virtue of a DVR. Wanna see pictures of my Grandkids? Now THAT'S important .... DVR's, nahhhh.


ebonovic said:


> Cute... Do you want to have a discussion... or act like a 5yr old.
> 
> And by the way... shame you continue to attack the posters, and not the actuall facts/contents of the discussion...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

incog-neato said:


> Lighten up son, have some fun. Learn how to laugh and smile. All of life doesn't revolve around defending the virtue of a DVR. Wanna see pictures of my Grandkids? Now THAT'S important .... DVR's, nahhhh.


Sorry... I find little humor in your posts...
And trust me... I am "very" lighten up...

There will be ZERO dobut, if I post in a not so "lighten" up manner.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

That's probably because the writers are on strike!!!!!







(C'mon, that one had to make you laugh just a little, no?)

There's always the "Ignore filter" so you won't have to read them anymore.


ebonovic said:


> Sorry... I find little humor in your posts...


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

So did they ever post the source code for the HR-20 (Which runs on Linux)?

Don't see how the OS folks aren't up in arms about that.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

SullyND said:


> So did they ever post the source code for the HR-20 (Which runs on Linux)?
> 
> Don't see how the OS folks aren't up in arms about that.


Because they don't misunderstand the OS licensing the way you do.

Besides, what evidence do you have that it runs Linux?


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

I assume you mean the HR10. Why would they post the source code? A lot of what is used in the HR10 is still proprietary and still used in other TiVo models both HD and SD although it has been pretty well dissected and hacked (in the positive way) & modified for years which is part of the fun.


SullyND said:


> So did they ever post the source code for the *HR-20* (Which runs on Linux)?
> 
> Don't see how the OS folks aren't up in arms about that.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

stevel said:


> Because they don't misunderstand the OS licensing the way you do.
> 
> Besides, what evidence do you have that it runs Linux?


No, I understand the OS Licensing issues. I'm not saying they have to publish everything, but if they're using GPL code that they've modified they are obligated to redistribute their modified code. There's been several discussions about it on the other boards. The last post I saw from Earl about it said he was inquiring to his sources about it, but I don't know if he ever heard back.

Here is the thread on DBStalk.com it started from a thread on that site that is not mentioned here. There also is a thread at mfslive about the HR20 running on Linux.



incog-neato said:


> I assume you mean the HR10. Why would they post the source code? A lot of what is used in the HR10 is still proprietary and still used in other TiVo models both HD and SD although it has been pretty well dissected and hacked (in the positive way) & modified for years which is part of the fun.


Nope, not the HR10, the HR20. They are not required to post the source code for their own code, but if they have modified the Linux Kernal they are obligated to redistribute the code with their changes (which is what TiVo does at www.tivo.com/linux)


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## snoots (Aug 14, 2002)

I selected 1st run only for NBC OTA monday night shows, tuned in live and the box did not record, did a search I thought on dbstalk and set it to record everything because I don't want to miss the 1st run stuff. Can you tell me if the HR20 is now correctly recording just 1st run if I select it? The media center network thing shouldn't stay up for more than about 15 5o 30 seconds since you are watching tv or playing back tv not accessing external media. I could see a longer message if I was activily browsing the network stuff and lost a server. Or why not an option to disable network server disconnect messages.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Ok. If the HR20 runs Linux and if DirecTV modified any of the Linux sources, then they do need to provide a copy of a build tree with their changes the way TiVo does. I'm not sure why individuals care about this - it's not as if you'll be able to reconstruct the entire HR20 software layer with such code and, as far as I know, nobody has figured out a way to run custom code on the HR20.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

SullyND said:


> No, I understand the OS Licensing issues. I'm not saying they have to publish everything, but if they're using GPL code that they've modified they are obligated to redistribute their modified code. There's been several discussions about it on the other boards. The last post I saw from Earl about it said he was inquiring to his sources about it, but I don't know if he ever heard back.
> 
> Here is the thread on DBStalk.com it started from a thread on that site that is not mentioned here. There also is a thread at mfslive about the HR20 running on Linux.
> 
> Nope, not the HR10, the HR20. They are not required to post the source code for their own code, but if they have modified the Linux Kernal they are obligated to redistribute the code with their changes (which is what TiVo does at www.tivo.com/linux)


Not all flavors of Linux are free source, I doubt they are using one of the free drops of the source code.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

sjberra said:


> Not all flavors of Linux are free source, I doubt they are using one of the free drops of the source code.


Huh? The Linux Kernal is open source. It cannot be anything but that. Please define "free source" as I have not heard of it.


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## chadfetter (Mar 28, 2004)

Sorry if this has been discussed.

So, the HR20 does not have the ability to watch OTA? Will the next series, HR21?

Is there still upgrade from HR10-250 still apply?


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

The HR20 *does* have built in HD OTA tuners for watching/recording. The HR21 does *not* have integrated tuners for HD OTA.

Whether or not DirecTV comes up with an OTA solution for the HR21 remains to be seen, although the other board seems to indicate that "something" is coming.


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## chadfetter (Mar 28, 2004)

I just talked to DirecTV, and they said that they will upgrade me for free. The problem is that they said that they can't gurantee if I would get the HR20 or HR21, the technician would just bring something out.

Have any of you been able to convince DTV that you need the HR20 for the OTA channels even though you can get the locals over the sat?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

You can ask for the installer's phone number and then call them to request an HR20. Some people have success with this, but most find that HR20s are not available this way. Some retail chains have HR20 stock and DirecTV sometimes tells customers to obtain one that way and then get a credit from DirecTV.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

My installer brought me an HR20 on Nov 7 and ordered me a replacement box since he thought the original had a problem (it was an installer error I fixed when he left). The replacement box was also an HR20 (refurb); I called DirecTV told them I fixed my original unit and asked if I could just keep the refurb box and they agreed to let me keep it for free. So, two HR20s a couple of weeks ago - one from the installer and one direct from DirecTV.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Ok, I'll have to fess up a bit and say that I had voted earlier without actually owning a HR20. However, I did mess with one a bit and followed a lot of the talk.

So, I finally called DirecTV and told them I moved (and promptly lost my national HD feeds) but that's ok as I get OTA fine and figured I would have to let them know at some point. I made that change and deactivated an old SD unit. Next I tried to get them to just send me an HR20 since I already have the AT9 dish. No luck, they insisted on an installer coming out. So, I said screw it and just bought one at Circuit City (HR20 not HR21). Yeah, I could have gotten it cheaper, but this was a lot less hassle.

I got it home, hooked it up, called and activated it (couldn't find the activation on-line) and was all set. That took all of 5 minutes. Next the unit downloaded an update so I ate dinner while it did that. So after all that was done, I gave it a test ride.

Now, I'll admit I had made some negative comments about the HR20 bashers without really having had the unit. But now that I do, I feel even more strongly about my 'lemming and zealot' comments. I never opened the manual, and in less than 30 minutes had it pretty much all figured out. I just don't understand all of the negative comments about the GUI. Sure it's different, but IMO is more useful and pretty easy to navigate. And after playing with it for a few more hours, I turned my HR10 back on and immediately groaned when I realized just how slow the guide and other stuff is.

Next, I spent about 20 minutes and reprogrammed one of my MX-500s and nearly everything is in the same place now as it was with the Tivo. There are maybe 3 custom buttons that are different. So no big learning curve there. I've always said that the whining about the remote was baseless since most people probably have (or should have) a decent universal anyway.

So the bottom line is I stick by all of my earlier comments and all of you folks who refuse to give up your Tivo - enjoy your dinosaur and your mostly SD channels.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> Ok, I'll have to fess up a bit and say that I had voted earlier without actually owning a HR20. However, I did mess with one a bit and followed a lot of the talk.
> 
> So the bottom line is I stick by all of my earlier comments and all of you folks who refuse to give up your Tivo - enjoy your dinosaur and your mostly SD channels.





Mark Lopez said:


> Hmmm.... Seems like an awful lot of new posters (i.e., less than 5 posts) suddenly coming here to post that the HR20 is a POS. Maybe RS4 has to create new user accounts to try and get the poll numbers up so he can't keep saying it's flawed.


lemme get this straight. youve been on here bashing people whove spoken negatively on the hr20, and you didnt even own one?!? and you accuse others of working the poll numbers?

sorry, but you are one heckuva hypocrite.:down:


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

+1


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> Now, I'll admit I had made some negative comments about the HR20 bashers without really having had the unit.





Mark Lopez said:


> And all you ever do is bash a product you haven't even used and refuse to even try. Living with a person with that sort of an attitude must really be a joy too.





Mark Lopez said:


> Only when those lemmings and zealots quit spreading their baseless FUD.
> 
> And I am the 'angry old guy' of the forum who is tired of hearing the same old half truths and other crap spewed by those who think that their HR20 bashing crusade will somehow revive a dead platform (as far as DirecTV is concerned).





Mark Lopez said:


> 2:1 so far not inferior. Gee, go figure.
> 
> Hey RS4, you better round up your lemming buddies and vote. Oh wait, it's only for people who actually used both.





Mark Lopez said:


> And yes, if someone is going to bash something they have not even used or just go by others *opinions* rather than their own first hand experience, then I don't think they are making an intelligent decision.





Mark Lopez said:


> And you are ignoring the fact that for a long time he posted as if he had one until someone called him on it and he admitted he didn't.
> 
> The whole point is we have a select group of people bashing a product they have not even used. And stating things that 'I read somehwere' as if they are a fact for everyone.
> 
> I've never once said the HR20 was superior to Tivo. All I have ever said is that Tivo had/has just as many bugs and shortcomings as the HR20.


So you've been commenting on comparing HR20 bugs to HR10 bugs, and you didn't even _own_ an HR20?

And you _voted in the poll_?

You've complained of people spreading "half truths" about the HR20 without having "first-hand experience" yourself? Apparently going on things "you read somewhere (as if they were FACT)?"

How could you accuse folks of "spreading half truths" about the HR20 when you never even owned one?

Wow.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

I'm not pointing any fingers, but there are plenty of folks on here spreading information about how bad the HR20 is without ever having used one - and they're never chastised for spreading baseless information. Why is it so troubling that someone may spread good information without having used one?

I have used the HR20 and the HR10 and I can say without question that, at least in my case, the HR20 is dramatically more reliable than my HR10's ever were. It does what it's supposed to do - record the shows I want to watch without fail. I used to have to babysit my HR10's to make sure the To Do lists were accurate and still couldn't ensure that all recordings would occur. I don't have to check on any of my three HR20's. They record the shows they're supposed to.

To provide a bit more detail... In the 5 months that I've had my three HR20's I've only had one program not record that should have - and that was only because of a guide data change that caused the HR20 to ignore the program. That has happened ONE time in five months.

Any one of my three HR10's will miss at least one recording every week. So, in my opinion, the question this thread is asking should be 'Is the *HR10* an inferior product.'


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

badmonkey said:


> I'm not pointing any fingers, but there are plenty of folks on here spreading information about how bad the HR20 is without ever having used one - and they're never chastised for spreading baseless information. Why is it so troubling that someone may spread good information without having used one?


"Plenty of folks?" I beg to differ. Other than RS4 (who is _constantly _chastised) I've not seen anyone else.

That said, Mark was a vehement defender of the HR20 ...while constantly bashing those devoted to TiVo. That he never owned one is quite ironic.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> "Plenty of folks?" I beg to differ. Other than RS4 (who is _constantly _chastised) I've not seen anyone else.
> 
> That said, Mark was a vehement defender of the HR20 ...while constantly bashing those devoted to TiVo. That he never owned one is quite ironic.


Don't get me wrong... I don't think it's right to spread any uninformed information. I just think it's interesting how people don't mind when that information supports their own veiwpoint - myself included. It's human nature.

I don't think either device is perfect. They both have issues. I just get frustrated when someone makes a blanket statement either way. Especially when the statement is based on something subjective like a feature or a particular way of performing a specific function. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion of how something works. But saying the HR20 sucks because it has the picture in the guide or the HR10 sucks because it doesn't have the picture in the guide (or any other device *feature*)... That just doesn't make sense.

In my case, I try to base my opinion on objective items such as recording reliability and system stability. In that regard, and speaking for myself only, my HR20's have outshined my HR10's. That's not to say I wasn't quite happy with my HR10's. But now I'm more happy with my HR20's.

And I only post this information to help those that are looking for information to make a more informed decision. It's possible they will have problems with the HR20 and may have had no problems with the HR10. But it's also possible that they will end up preferring the HR20. I just try to present objective information from my own experience.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

badmonkey said:


> In my case, I try to base my opinion on objective items such as recording reliability and system stability. In that regard, and speaking for myself only, my HR20's have outshined my HR10's. That's not to say I wasn't quite happy with my HR10's. But now I'm more happy with my HR20's.


Hey, that's cool ...I'm in the same boat, but have had near opposite experiences, LOL.

I've become accustomed to the HR20 UI, and I don't really dislike it. I too am for whatever records the programming I choose _reliably and consistantly_. With all the new MPEG4 HD channels I truly _want_ that to be the HR20 (I recently hooked it back up), but it hasn't gotten there for us yet.

I keep waiting for that corner to be turned ...hopefully, it'll happen very soon!


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

badmonkey said:


> I have used the HR20 and the HR10 and I can say without question that, at least in my case, the HR20 is dramatically more reliable than my HR10's ever were. It does what it's supposed to do - record the shows I want to watch without fail. I used to have to babysit my HR10's to make sure the To Do lists were accurate and still couldn't ensure that all recordings would occur. I don't have to check on any of my three HR20's. They record the shows they're supposed to.
> 
> To provide a bit more detail... In the 5 months that I've had my three HR20's I've only had one program not record that should have - and that was only because of a guide data change that caused the HR20 to ignore the program. That has happened ONE time in five months.


If you swap HR20 and HR10 in your comment then that would be my experience. I have had weekly lockups on the HR20 (4 different ones). I have to baby sit it to make sure it records everything...


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

rickmeoff said:


> lemme get this straight. youve been on here bashing people whove spoken negatively on the hr20, and you didnt even own one?!? and you accuse others of working the poll numbers?
> 
> sorry, but you are one heckuva hypocrite.:down:


First, I said I had used one but just did not own one (and never said I did). Not quite the same as those who bash it and haven't even touched it. Secondly, the poll is still accurate as my vote has not changed. And lastly, my 'bashing' of the HR20 bashers was due to the lack of substance for most of their complaints. I.e. 'It's a POS because I spent 5 minutes with it' or 'It's a POS because Joe Blow said it was' or 'It's a POS because it has the features we all begged Tivo to add'.



Sir_winealot said:


> So you've been commenting on comparing HR20 bugs to HR10 bugs, and you didn't even _own_ an HR20?
> 
> And you _voted in the poll_?


As stated above I did not own one, but I had hands on with one several times. Just never long enought to go through every single feature.



Sir_winealot said:


> You've complained of people spreading "half truths" about the HR20 without having "first-hand experience" yourself? Apparently going on things "you read somewhere (as if they were FACT)?"


No, as I just said (but you failed to read) I had messed with it a bit already. And if you go back to my posts, most were in regards to the HR10 and the issues it still has after years as compared to those whining about the ones remaining in the hR20.



Sir_winealot said:


> How could you accuse folks of "spreading half truths" about the HR20 when you never even owned one?
> 
> Wow.


Because the half truths were already confirmed to be such by others too and from what I had personally seen. Yeah, wow. I know it's hard for a lemming to comprehend.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> That said, Mark was a vehement defender of the HR20 ...while constantly bashing those devoted to TiVo. That he never owned one is quite ironic.


I never defended the HR20 other than to call people for wearing blinders and refusing to even give it a chance. It's also pretty easy to spot the posters who will do or say anything just to try and spread FUD about it. And more than actually defending the HR20, I had been stating the HR10 is not all that great. I said many times that Tivo had stagnated years ago (long before the HR20). I have less confidence today that my HR10s will record things in full or not prematurely delete things than I had 5 years ago (with older models).

And once again (for the reading impaired), I clearly said "However, I did mess with one a bit" in my first post on the subject. You don't have to own something to give an opinion if you have actually used it.

I challenge anyone to find a single post where I compared a feature as if I owned one. For example anywhere where that I said something like 'the HR20 has never missed a recording for me'. On the contrary, I made comments about well known things that you don't need to own one to comment about. Like not caring about suggestions because I don''t use them or DLBs because I never use them, etc. However, I did make comments where people complained about bugs after being out so long (and I never said it didn't have any), I simply stated that the HR10 still has plenty and has been around much longer.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

The impression I'm getting is that people are answering the question they want to answer, which is "I like the XXX more than the YYY..." not the question that is actually being asked which is whether the HR20 is inferior to the HR10. Nor are the people weighing in even meeting the qualifications originally requested by the OP.

As a result, I've really not been able to derive anything meaningful about the poll results. 

Can someone start a new poll to see what people prefer, in spite of perceived inferiority or superiority of one platform over the other? Is that not what the OP intended?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

tivoupgrade said:


> The impression I'm getting is that people are answering the question they want to answer, which is "I like the XXX more than the YYY..." not the question that is actually being asked which is whether the HR20 is inferior to the HR10.


If you like XXX more than YYY, almost by default you would call the YYY inferior. However, by some definitions of inferior, one could say the HR10 has to be just because it has older hardware and is not able to receive the MPEG4 feeds. So IMO it really is just a matter of which do you like more.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> If you like XXX more than YYY, almost by default you would call the YYY inferior. However, by some definitions of inferior, one could say the HR10 has to be just because it has older hardware and is not able to receive the MPEG4 feeds. So IMO it really is just a matter of which do you like more.


And that is exactly my point.

I don't think the HR20 is inferior. I prefer the HR10-250.

We are not all wired the same way.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

tivoupgrade said:


> We are not all wired the same way.


Right. Which is why it is almost impossible to have a poll based on inferior/superior unless that term is clearly defined. And that still would probably not give meaningful results. As I said, almost by default the HR10 would have to be considered inferior due to the lack of support for the newer technology (i.e. MPEG4). But if one broadened the scope, it might include other features. For example, for some the lack of DLBs makes the HR20 inferior because they lost a key feature they use. So again it will come down to which they like better, and not nesessarily be an unbiased responce even if all other features are superior. I guess the point is, you will probably never get a poll that won't ultimetly just come down to people voting on which they like better even if the one they like is actually the overall inferior device.

After spending another day with the HR20 'full time', I can understand the reluctance of some to make/accept the switch. I have had Tivos for 7 years and have gotten quite used to the menus and can navigate them with my eyes closed. So yes, there is a leaning curve just like with any other big change. For example, my initial 'gut reaction' to Vista was that it sucks because nothing seemed to be in the same place. Especially since I even run XP in 'classic' mode. So I might be tempted to call it inferior just because I don't like the looks of it and the first time I would have a problem with an incompatible piece of hardware I use a lot due to lack of drivers, I would further be tempted to call it a POS since I lost functionality I previously had. But would it be fair to call it inferior when it supports newer technology? BTW, I don't own a Vista machine either, but I have played with it for quite a while on a laptop someone brought in. So just as in this thread, I feel I would be able to cast a fair vote if there were a poll about it.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> First, I said I had used one but just did not own one (and never said I did). Not quite the same as those who bash it and haven't even touched it. Secondly, the poll is still accurate as my vote has not changed. And lastly, my 'bashing' of the HR20 bashers was due to the lack of substance for most of their complaints. I.e. 'It's a POS because I spent 5 minutes with it' or 'It's a POS because Joe Blow said it was' or 'It's a POS because it has the features we all begged Tivo to add'.
> 
> As stated above I did not own one, but I had hands on with one several times. Just never long enought to go through every single feature.
> 
> ...


lol, pretty weak if you ask me. yeah, the 'poll' is accurate -now- because youre now a '2 day old hr20 owner,' but it wasnt accurate when you voted in it because you didnt own one at the time.

ive seen you go after folks who werent merely 'lack of substance -itz a pos!- ' posters. folks who preferred the hr10 received some fairly nasty undeserved comments.

gete back to us after youve owned one for a few months, until that time your opinion on the hr20 isnt really relative afaic (for the record, i like my hr20).

nice hypocritical snowjob tho, lol.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

rickmeoff said:


> lol, pretty weak if you ask me. yeah, the 'poll' is accurate -now- because youre now a '2 day old hr20 owner,' but it wasnt accurate when you voted in it because you didnt own one at the time.
> 
> ive seen you go after folks who werent merely 'lack of substance -itz a pos!- ' posters. folks who preferred the hr10 received some fairly nasty undeserved comments.
> 
> ...


<sigh> See this the same reason I call some folks lemmings, zealots etc. From the original post of this thread:



> For purposes of this poll, please only answer IF you have owned and *used both the HR10-250 (original TiVo based HD DVR) and an HR20-xxx receiver (any sub model of the HR20) for more than one week each.*


The only condition I did not meet was the actually owning one part. Since I satisfied the other criteria I did not see the owning as being a requirement. As I have already said (but some can't seem to comprehend) is that one does not have to own something to be able to come to an opinion if they have actually used it. And for the purposes of this poll, I did.

Most of my negative comments I made were to those who were bashing it and never even touched it. Or to those who made statements that were plain false and I knew for a fact were because of my hands on use. For example those who said it was useless without DLBs even though there is a relatively simple work around.

Call it hypocritical if it makes you feel better, but at least I was honest and explained the exact conditions for my original vote and subsequent reaffirmation of it. If anything, I can now without question, call the lemmings on some of the other items they whine about that I was not 100% sure of.

And BTW, I never said the poll was not accurate. I simply questioned some folks with <5 posts suddenly coming out of the woodwork to vote against the HR20. Just seemed a bit odd for a Tivo owner to have never bothered to post until this thread. <shrug>


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> <sigh> See this the same reason I call some folks lemmings, zealots etc. From the original post of this thread:
> 
> For purposes of this poll, please only answer IF you have owned and *used *both the HR10-250 (original TiVo based HD DVR) and an HR20-xxx receiver (any sub model of the HR20) *for more than one week each. *
> 
> The only condition I did not meet was the actually owning one part. Since I satisfied the other criteria I did not see the owning as being a requirement.


what?!?! you hadnt 'used an hr20 for a week!' by your own admission, you had 'messed with one.' theres a HUGE difference.



Mark Lopez said:


> Most of my negative comments I made were to those who were bashing it and never even touched it. Or to those who made statements that were plain false and I knew for a fact were because of my hands on use. For example those who said it was useless without DLBs even though there is a relatively simple work around.


how could you know anything about the hr20 'for a fact' if you messed with one while it sat on a shelf in a store. you hadnt set up 20 series links, and then watched to see the results.

you bashed people who felt their hr20s werent as proficient as their hr10, and you had absolutely no real first-hand experience with the unit. thus, YOU were basing your comments on anecdotal evidence.



Mark Lopez said:


> Call it hypocritical if it makes you feel better, but at least I was honest and explained the exact conditions for my original vote and subsequent reaffirmation of it. If anything, I can now without question, call the lemmings on some of the other items they whine about that I was not 100% sure of.


honest? lol, you were anything BUT honest. you only explained the conditions for your original vote AFTER purchasing an hr20 and using it for a day. youve gotta long way to go before you can comment on its reliability.



Mark Lopez said:


> And BTW, I never said the poll was not accurate. I simply questioned some folks with <5 posts suddenly coming out of the woodwork to vote against the HR20. Just seemed a bit odd for a Tivo owner to have never bothered to post until this thread. <shrug>


you came out strongly against people that didnt like their hr20, strongly supporting the hr20 and all the while busting the balls of rs4 for making comments 'without ever owning one.'

and neither did you.

if that isnt a hypocrite, i dunno what is.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

rickmeoff said:


> what?!?! you hadnt 'used an hr20 for a week!' by your own admission, you had 'messed with one.' theres a HUGE difference.
> 
> how could you know anything about the hr20 'for a fact' if you messed with one while it sat on a shelf in a store. you hadnt set up 20 series links, and then watched to see the results.
> .


 Where did I say anything about messing with one at a store? Do you not think that perhaps I know (several) people who have one and have 'messed' with it there?



rickmeoff said:


> you came out strongly against people that didnt like their hr20, strongly supporting the hr20 and all the while busting the balls of rs4 for making comments 'without ever owning one.'
> 
> and neither did you.
> 
> if that isnt a hypocrite, i dunno what is.


Good grief! Some people are like rocks. RS4 admitted he never even *tried* one. For the last time (listen very carefully now and read slowly) A person does not have own a peice of equipment to have used it long enough to have an opinon on it's funtionality. And if you want to get picky about wording, practically no one 'owns' a HR20 as they are nearly all leased.


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