# Tivo Stream Outside of Home Network?



## rspike (Aug 28, 2003)

Anybody know when TiVo Stream will allow me to watch my TiVo when I'm outside of my home network? I've heard that it's in the works, and it would be great to use right within my TiVo App instead of having to rely on my SlingBox to accomplish this.


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## NAMLOOT (Jan 7, 2013)

Just saw this on the TiVo website. I too am curious on a release date. Was contemplating buying a slingbox.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Their CEO said in an interview that it would "light up this Fall". So no exact date, but should be in the next few months.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Their CEO said in an interview that it would "light up this Fall". So no exact date, but should be in the next few months.


And so the Tivo Stream will be able to steam outside home network? It's not just the new boxes, right?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yes. The standalone Stream and the new boxes with built in streaming use the exact same chip. Also Engadget claimed to have tested a beta version of the software on a standalone Stream.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

I know the Stream can be used with Apple devices (& hopefully Android someday in the NEAR future), but in addition to being able to use a Stream with iOS, can it be used with a standard PC/laptop somehow? Maybe in a Mozilla, IE, or Chrome browser window?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

buscuitboy said:


> I know the Stream can be used with Apple devices (& hopefully Android someday in the NEAR future), but in addition to being able to use a Stream with iOS, can it be used with a standard PC/laptop somehow? Maybe in a Mozilla, IE, or Chrome browser window?


I'd love that too... I'm on my 11" MacBook Air a lot more these days than I'm on my iPad...


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## HenryFarpolo (Dec 1, 2008)

buscuitboy said:


> I know the Stream can be used with Apple devices (& hopefully Android someday in the NEAR future), but in addition to being able to use a Stream with iOS, can it be used with a standard PC/laptop somehow? Maybe in a Mozilla, IE, or Chrome browser window?


There is no app for PC that will replicate what can be done with IOS.


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## Lenonn (May 31, 2004)

I could see my father using this feature if he could stream from the living room to his hotel room on business trips. But, he doesn't have any iOS devices. Still, I look forward to seeing this in action someday.


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## NAMLOOT (Jan 7, 2013)

Any updates on this?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's not Fall yet, and they didn't say which year.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Yes. The standalone Stream and the new boxes with built in streaming use the exact same chip. Also Engadget claimed to have tested a beta version of the software on a standalone Stream.


Any chance this feature will also work with a 4-tuner Premiere? Or does it look like it will be a Roamio feature only?


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## mdscott (Jun 26, 2002)

buscuitboy said:


> Any chance this feature will also work with a 4-tuner Premiere? Or does it look like it will be a Roamio feature only?


The Premiere requires the separate TiVoStream box (as does the base 4 tuner Roamio)


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

And the separate TiVo Stream is said to be getting this feature.

So yes, as far as we've been told, and as far as the reviews have indicated, this feature WILL also work with 2 and 4-tuner Premieres.

...whenever it comes out.


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## NAMLOOT (Jan 7, 2013)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's not Fall yet, and they didn't say which year.


A boy can dream........


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

How much does the iPad remote w/Stream mimic the physical thing? The huge plus for me vs the cable DVRs is that feeling when I hit play after FF and landing within a few seconds on where I want to start and I am worried that may not be there with the stream. If it is the same experience or pretty dang close (I know it can't be as good as the real thing) and when the out of network is released I will not doubt plop down my money and get a stream instantly (sans any major life crisis happening at the time).


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Works pretty damn well in my experience. We'll see if that continues when outside the LAN. It's got "native" control, very nice UI. It's certainly a LOT better than a Slingbox, I'll say, which relies on IR blasters and executing the commands on the (transcoded) on-screen menu display. That feels like a (somewhat slow) kludge. Amazing that it works at all, really. TiVo's taken their sweet time but in my opinion, their execution of this functionality is more elegant.

Now we just need to hope they figure out adaptive streaming (so it works well on slow connections and looks great on fast ones.) And clients for platforms other than iOS (like Android, Windows Phone, Mac and PC) would be great to see too.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Einselen said:


> How much does the iPad remote w/Stream mimic the physical thing? The huge plus for me vs the cable DVRs is that feeling when I hit play after FF and landing within a few seconds on where I want to start and I am worried that may not be there with the stream. If it is the same experience or pretty dang close (I know it can't be as good as the real thing) and when the out of network is released I will not doubt plop down my money and get a stream instantly (sans any major life crisis happening at the time).


Streaming, yeah it can be slow..

But that's why you can also DOWNLOAD a show too. I have no idea if this will still be true when outside the home, though I personally hope it will be. As I've said before, I *do* download the vast majority of the time (but I also have made use of streaming, sometimes when my iPad was too full to download another show)... MOSTLY for this very reason -- better skip/rewind responsiveness.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

So if you download, do you still watch in app and use in app for the trick play?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Yes. But downloading is only an option for shows that don't have the CCI flag set (ie: are not limited to "copy once.") At least with my cable provider (TWC) that's a very small selection of channels (the big 5 networks, I think.) The rest of the recordings can only be streamed.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Fofer said:


> Yes. But downloading is only an option for shows that don't have the CCI flag set (ie: are not limited to "copy once.") At least with my cable provider (TWC) that's a very small selection of channels (the big 5 networks, I think.) The rest of the recordings can only be streamed.


Thanks Fofer! Bummer for you as the only CCI flag I have seen (FiOS) was on HBO. I think all my other recordings don't have that, but then again maybe I have no tried to download Suits from USA.


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## bayern_fan (Aug 12, 2013)

Fofer said:


> Yes. But downloading is only an option for shows that don't have the CCI flag set (ie: are not limited to "copy once.") At least with my cable provider (TWC) that's a very small selection of channels (the big 5 networks, I think.) The rest of the recordings can only be streamed.


Same on Cablevision! It's a bummer


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

I'm antenna only, and oddly enough the video podcasts I download (from places like CNet & Revision 3) on my TiVo can't be copied from one TiVo box to another. Always found that to be bizarre.

I'm gonna assume these won't be doable either if I can't copy it from one TiVo to another in my own house.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Joe Siegler said:


> I'm antenna only, and oddly enough the video podcasts I download (from places like CNet & Revision 3) on my TiVo can't be copied from one TiVo box to another. Always found that to be bizarre.
> 
> I'm gonna assume these won't be doable either if I can't copy it from one TiVo to another in my own house.


Even the "Welcome to Tivo" videos that Tivo creates themselves can't be copied. It makes no sense. It's no wonder why Tivo never really caught on with the masses. They go out of their way to make it hard for people to know about them.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Nothing that is "pushed" to a TiVo can be copied. It's like it has some built in CCI flag. Even if you push something yourself using pyTiVo it'll be blocked from being transferred again.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Wait, are podcasts pushed to a Tivo? I thought nightly a tivo checked for new podcasts.. but sort of arguing against myself, it ALSO seems like deleting a podcast entry often gets it to download more podcasts.. 

I tend to still download a bunch of CNET video podcasts, but now virtually always watch them on my iPad instead since I can watch at 2x.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think if you set em up via the podcast app then they are pushed by TiVo's servers. Not 100% sure though. I know if you set them up via TiVo Desktop they're pushed, but I don't think anyone uses that method any more. (It never quite worked right anyway)


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

I call them video podcasts, but that might not be the "proper term" for them. 

I'm referring to things like "The Apple Byte" from CNet, or "HD Nation" from Revision 3. If you search for them in the search function you'll find them and they can get added to the download manager.

Technically it's a video file coming from the CNet server from an rss feed that TiVo then delivers to your box. Is that push? I don't know, but those are the kinds of things I'm referring to.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think the way it works it is a push. It not about how the TiVo downloads it, it's about how the request for the download is sent to the TiVo. But again I'm not 100% positive. I just seem to remember reading something about that being the way it worked. I could be misremembering.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

Yeah, I'm not sure about the bits and pieces on how TiVo (the service) gets the video to my TiVo (box). 

I know the original source material at Rev3 & CNet exists as video podcasts on an RSS. That's about the only thing I'm positive about.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Joe Siegler said:


> I'm antenna only, and oddly enough the video podcasts I download (from places like CNet & Revision 3) on my TiVo can't be copied from one TiVo box to another. Always found that to be bizarre.
> 
> I'm gonna assume these won't be doable either if I can't copy it from one TiVo to another in my own house.


I think you could just watch those podcasts directly from the cnet or revision3 websites with an Ipad.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

yeah, any podcast app will work with them, or you could download/stream/sync them yourself... they are not "TiVo exclusives" by any means...


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## bcrider (Oct 31, 2000)

Glad I came across this thread. I was just looking at getting a Slingbox, but a TiVo Stream that allows for streaming outside the home will be great! Hope they update this soon.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Yes, I too am looking forward to it... very happy to have learned it'll work with my existing TiVo Stream and TiVo Premiere. (Not entirely interested in upgrading to a Roamio at this time.) I hope it handles adaptive bitrate streaming well, so it works adequately in remote locations with not-so-fast internet speeds. Hopefully the Stream's hardware can handle that transcoding (?) The Slingbox already does this well.

What the Stream has over the Slingbox is tighter UI integration with native controls. The Slingbox uses IR blasters to control your settop box, and adds on a "virtual" remote widget on your handheld/laptop screen to control it all... the end result is a bit laggy and sometimes feels like a kludge. TiVo's implementation, while it's taken far too many years to get here, strikes me as more elegant, integrated and reliable. Let's hope this comes to pass, in reality, and is as usable as I'm hoping it will be.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Although this part I hadn't heard yet, kinda sucks:



> However, the new DVRs don't provide TV Everywhere in all cases: The streaming feature is restricted based on flags set by programmers. *According to TiVo, not all content can be streamed out of home and some programming may only be streamed while a mobile device is on the same local Wi-Fi network as the subscriber's DVR*.


http://variety.com/2013/digital/new...tent-outside-the-home-with-roamio-1200582143/

I mean, I knew that downloading wouldn't work for all content (damn CCI flag) but I thought streaming was a "solution" for that. At least it has been that way within then home when sharing content between two TiVos (and streaming to an iPad.) I did not expect that streaming would be further restricted and that some content wouldn't be allowed to be streamed outside the home. I guess I should never make assumptions when it comes to TiVo, they always seems to come up with new and novel ways to disappoint me.  Yes, I understand they're under legal pressure to keep this secure and appease the broadcasters. Doesn't make me any less disappointed, though.

So in this regard, Slingbox is better. It lets you stream anything, anywhere. No downloading though. Sounds like Dish's Hopper product can also do both (and why they're always being legally challenged by the broadcasters.) I am not sure how DirecTV's Genie product handles this.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Fofer said:


> So in this regard, Slingbox is better. It lets you stream anything, anywhere. No downloading though.


 For Slingbox Pro or later models there is actually a way to capture real time H.264 output of the Sling. Not as good as downloads but better than nothing.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

moyekj said:


> For Slingbox Pro or later models there is actually a way to capture real time H.264 output of the Sling. Not as good as downloads but better than nothing.


Really? Interesting. Got a link?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Fofer said:


> Really? Interesting. Got a link?


See Capturing Slingbox 350/500 video thread.
Note that I incorporated the capability into recent versions of kmttg.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Fofer said:


> So in this regard, Slingbox is better. It lets you stream anything, anywhere. No downloading though. Sounds like Dish's Hopper product can also do both (and why they're always being legally challenged by the broadcasters.) I am not sure how DirecTV's Genie product handles this.


Though, to be honest, Slingbox is affected by copy protection just the same. I was watching a CNET video on Slingbox (from early this year, that I still had on my iPad), and they mentioned that while you can hook up HDMI to the slingbox, even sling recommends you ALSO connect component, BECAUSE OF COPY PROTECTION ISSUES.

So this is very very close to being the same thing.. You're essentially just hitting the analog hole with component.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Slingbox 500 with HDMI is worthless IMO. What makes Sling great is ability to exploit the analog hole using component. I was very glad to see Roamios released with analog outputs still. A day will come when analog outputs on these boxes will be gone, though at that point probably HDMI/component adapters could be used to work around the HDCP nonsense.


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## skaggs (Feb 13, 2003)

I'm still looking for clarification on what (if any) restrictions will be placed on out-of-home streaming when it is finally enabled.

If a show can be streamed from one TiVo to another in my home, why wouldn't it be able to be streamed to my iPad out-of-home?

HBO shows have the most restrictive CCI byte, but I can stream these shows to another TiVo in my home. Will I be able to stream this same HBO show to my iPad when I am outside my home?

If TiVo restricts streaming out-of-home similar to the prohibitions put in place for copying from one TiVo to another (CCI flag), the OOH streaming function would be better served with a Slingbox, IMO.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

At least in the case of HBO, I'd say those shows are better served via the HBO GO app. It's the other premium channels I am worried about...


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## skaggs (Feb 13, 2003)

Fofer said:


> At least in the case of HBO, I'd say those shows are better served via the HBO GO app. It's the other premium channels I am worried about...


HBO GO app does not work outside of the USA. Slingbox does.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

We don't know yet. The only indication we have that there will be restrictions at all is the early reviews of the Roamio that had mentions of the out of home streaming. Unless TiVo releases more info (unlikely) we'll have to wait until it's released and see how it goes. 

The big difference here between TiVo Stream and Slingbox is that TiVo has to play nice with CableLabs because they are doing a pure digital transfer. Slingbox is exploiting the "analog hole" so they aren't restricted.


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## skaggs (Feb 13, 2003)

CCI byte restrictions on OOH streaming? Yes or No?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

We don't know yet. We haven't learned anything new in the 9 days since you asked last.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

We'll find out Thursday morning...

https://www.facebook.com/TiVo/app_256483144499267


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## skaggs (Feb 13, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> We'll find out Thursday morning...
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/TiVo/app_256483144499267


at 7:00AM EST (according to the OOH countdown clock)


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Looks like it's just Roamio Pro and Plus per Tivos Facebook page


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## skaggs (Feb 13, 2003)

SullyND said:


> Looks like it's just Roamio Pro and Plus per Tivos Facebook page


The generic Roamio does not have streaming built in, but can receive channels via a HD antenna. It is compatible with a separate Stream unit.

https://www.tivo.com/shop/roamio


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Right. So can the premiere. The FB post makes no mention of the stream.


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## skaggs (Feb 13, 2003)

It's all going to be moot if there will be restrictions similar to those in place for the CCI byte / transfer.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

skaggs said:


> It's all going to be moot if there will be restrictions similar to those in place for the CCI byte / transfer.


Depends on your cable provider. Mine only protects Premium channels so it'll still work fine for me. But if you have one that protects everything like Time Warner then it would be pretty useless.

Although if it is limited by CCI it's not really much better then downloading, so I wonder what the point would be?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Yeah the whole point of streaming was to appease the CCI byte.

I want this to work with my Stream (and my Premiere) just as it works with the Stream+Roamio. And we've been told that it would.

And I want it to let me stream any and all recorded content, outside the home. Otherwise it's completely useless to me.

Let's see how TiVo manages to disappoint us, yet again.


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## skaggs (Feb 13, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Depends on your cable provider. Mine only protects Premium channels so it'll still work fine for me. But if you have one that protects everything like Time Warner then it would be pretty useless.
> 
> Although if it is limited by CCI it's not really much better then downloading, so I wonder what the point would be?


I have TWC and they restrict everything with the CCI byte except the locals.

That's why I thought STREAMING outside the home was the answer, similar to how I can STREAM from the Premiere in my Family Room to the Premiere in my bedroom.

I have a Slingbox so I can stream whatever channel I want. I was hoping to be able to get rid of the Slingbox and 2 Premieres and replace it with a Roamio+ and Mini.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

We'll know in a few hours.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

We had one reviewer that mentioned protected channels - that is where the concern comes from. I also agree that honoring the CCI byte for external streaming doesn't make any sense - but until 7am tomorrow we just won't know.

Plenty of time to get pissed off when we have the whole story!


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## skaggs (Feb 13, 2003)

The updated TiVo app with streaming capabilities is available on the Apple App Store.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

Very cool... 2 notes... as someone else noted only wi-fi is supported. Apparently LTE to come later. Premium channels will not stream out of house.
Now, as the only iDevices my wife and I own are phones and pods, no pads, I'm waiting for a PC browser function.


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## supasta (May 6, 2006)

SullyND said:


> Right. So can the premiere. The FB post makes no mention of the stream.


The updated iOS app details do mention that it is coming to Stream "soon".


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## bayern_fan (Aug 12, 2013)

moyekj said:


> Slingbox 500 with HDMI is worthless IMO. What makes Sling great is ability to exploit the analog hole using component. I was very glad to see Roamios released with analog outputs still. A day will come when analog outputs on these boxes will be gone, though at that point probably HDMI/component adapters could be used to work around the HDCP nonsense.


Is there a way to get component out on a Roamio base with such a converter? (or possibly a breakout cable)

If so, I might pick up a Slingbox 350 to replace my Stream


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## jjd416 (Nov 24, 2009)

https://www.tivo.com/shop/stream

Looks like streaming away from home for TiVo Stream, other than the one built into the Roamio Pro and Plus, is coming the end of December 2013.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

MScottC said:


> Premium channels will not stream out of house..


WTF. Seriously?

This isn't an issue for streaming products from Dish (Hopper,) DirecTV (Genie,) or Verizon FIOS is it?

So, why TiVo?

TiVo has perfected the art of getting me exciting for a feature or product... and then surprising me with new and novel ways to disappoint me. What a joke. What a waste. :down:


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## bayern_fan (Aug 12, 2013)

Fofer said:


> WTF. Seriously?
> 
> This isn't an issue for streaming products from Dish (Hopper,) DirecTV (Genie,) or Verizon FIOS is it?
> 
> ...


TiVo better fix this one soon because streaming is NOT the same as copying.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

It doesn't really impact me all that much because I am on FIOS, but I would be interested in hearing TiVo's resoning for this.

Did they get a cease and desist order? Was the decision based on a cable labs legal opinion of some type?

I know TiVo tends to be rather closed lipped about this kind of thing, but with as draconian some of the cable companies are being with the CCI byte - it would be good PR for them to present their best case.


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## bayern_fan (Aug 12, 2013)

bradleys said:


> It doesn't really impact me all that much because I am on FIOS, but I would be interested in hearing TiVo's resoning for this.
> 
> Did they get a cease and desist order? Was the decision based on a cable labs legal opinion of some type?
> 
> I know TiVo tends to be rather closed lipped about this kind of thing, but with as draconian some of the cable companies are being with the CCI byte - it would be good PR for them to present their best case.


Hoping Margret is watching this thread and might be able to shed some light on this. She's been excellent with communication regarding the Roamio so far! :up:


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

She has been very careful - and I do not blame her. She provides quick informational posts and doesn't engage in debate or conversation. 

It is very rare that she will answer the "why" question...

Just glad I have FIOS!!!!


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

bayern_fan said:


> Is there a way to get component out on a Roamio base with such a converter? (or possibly a breakout cable)
> 
> If so, I might pick up a Slingbox 350 to replace my Stream


 Something like this is what you would need (HDMI to component + R/L audio output):
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product_print.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10114&cs_id=1011410&p_id=8125
Here's a different one available at Amazon (but based on reviews you probably should shop around):
http://www.amazon.com/Kanex-Pro-HDR...ywords=hdmi+to+component+and+r/l+audio+output


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Are just the premium channels blocked? Or all channels with CCI set?


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## bayern_fan (Aug 12, 2013)

Thanks moekj! Will look further into this. Much cheaper than buying a Mini+breakout component cable for the slingbox


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

MScottC said:


> Very cool... 2 notes... as someone else noted only wi-fi is supported. Apparently LTE to come later. Premium channels will not stream out of house.


Pretty sure FiOS just locks down HBO... Showtime and others are probably good go for me. Will have to borrow my wife's iPhone to test.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Interesting note from the support site, hm.

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2762/



> I can't achieve full signal strength (6 dots)
> Currently, the TiVo App for iOS uses a proxy server to handle transfers between your TiVo DVR and your iOS device. Soon, you will be able to connect directly to your home network-when this happens, you will be able to get all six dots. Until then, the highest attainable signal strength is five dots.
> 
> The proxy server does not affect your ability to stream or download programs.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

davezatz said:


> Interesting note from the support site, hm.
> 
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2762/


I just noticed that tidbit as well while looking over the help documentation. This explains why we see options for port forwarding on the sys-info page for the Stream, but no setup is currently required for that. The port-forwarding will be necessary in the future to allow direct connections to your home IP.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I noticed that on the full system info screen. There is a checkbox for port forwarding, but you can't actually check it.


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## NeZorf (Oct 22, 2000)

That proxy note in faq sounds promising. Does 1) streaming & 2) downloading outside the home work when the Roamio is behind a 'Double NAT' network? Would be grateful if someone is able to test that setup. TIA


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

I can't stream most of my channels. In or out of home network. Oh that's right. It's because they're H.264 and the Stream cannot handle that format.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Most of your channels are in H.264? Where is that?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I don't understand why we can stream CCI byte shows inside the home... but can't stream those same shows, outside the home. 

Is this an issue with the streaming solutions from DTV, Dish, or FIOS? If not, why is it an issue with TiVo?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Fofer said:


> Is this an issue with the streaming solutions from DTV, Dish, or FIOS? If not, why is it an issue with TiVo?


TiVo does not have the same relationship with the content providers as DTV, Dish, or FIOS.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Seems overly cautious to me...

I wish I knew the details that lead to the decision to restrict it. Damn lawyers!


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## ahwman (Jan 24, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> Are just the premium channels blocked? Or all channels with CCI set?


This affecters ALL channels with CCI. Almost makes OHS worthless for people like myself with most channels being marked CCI.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

currently it seems as though you can stream live TV with the CCI set, but not recorded. Place Shifting vs Time Shifting...

Not sure if this is a bug or by design.


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## ahwman (Jan 24, 2013)

I noticed this as well, what sense could this possibly make?


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

davezatz said:


> Pretty sure FiOS just locks down HBO... Showtime and others are probably good go for me. Will have to borrow my wife's iPhone to test.


All FiOS isn't created equal-- here, FiOS locks down everything except locals.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

David Platt said:


> All FiOS isn't created equal-- here, FiOS locks down everything except locals.


When people discuss FIOS generally they are talking about Verizon Communications, I assume you have Frontier Communications and yes, they have set different rules.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

ahwman said:


> I noticed this as well, what sense could this possibly make?


Like I said, I am not sure if this is a bug or by design.

If it is by design, TiVo may have interpreted (or been provided guidance) the CCI guidlnes in a way that will not allow them to stream "time shifted" / protected content. However, streaming "real time" / protected content may have been determined to be allowed.

As I have said in the past, I would really love to see a legal reading on this. And I do think that should be in the public domain. TiVo didn't make this decision because they wanted too, they made this decision because the felt it was mandated.

If it is mandated, then a legal interpretation of the public laws should be available.


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## sirfergy (May 18, 2002)

I have an iPhone 4, and after about two minutes my stream just stops. I've tried multiple times and I can only get about two minutes in. Has anyone else seen this?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> Like I said, I am not sure if this is a bug or by design.


My guess is bug. TiVo uses sort of a macro for live TV in the app. They probably don't have a way to verify the CCI byte of the channel before allowing you to start the stream and once it's going they don't seem to have a way to abort, as evidenced by the whole start streaming on wifi but continue on LTE trick. I'm betting this will get "fixed" soon.


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## seanm57 (Sep 25, 2006)

jjd416 said:


> ]
> 
> Looks like streaming away from home for TiVo Stream, other than the one built into the Roamio Pro and Plus, is coming the end of December 2013.


What makes you think that makes it end of December? They didn't say Christmas 2013. They said holiday. The holiday season starts at thanksgiving.

Their twitter statement said 2 to 3 weeks from now.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

bayern_fan said:


> Is there a way to get component out on a Roamio base with such a converter? (or possibly a breakout cable)
> 
> If so, I might pick up a Slingbox 350 to replace my Stream


The HDFury series of boxes convert HDMI+HDCP to component/RGB.

They aren't cheap though - you're looking at $300 or so for just the converter.

But doesn't the Roamio already have component outputs? Why not just use that and use the passthrough connection?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Worf said:


> But doesn't the Roamio already have component outputs? Why not just use that and use the passthrough connection?


Plus & Pro models do. The base only has a composite output which requires a breakout cable.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Curious that it's limited to Pro/Plus for now, and not the standalone Stream. I wonder if that's a marketing decision, or if there's a real technical reason?



bradleys said:


> When people discuss FIOS generally they are talking about Verizon Communications, I assume you have Frontier Communications and yes, they have set different rules.


Yeah, "Fios" without qualifier = Verizon Fios. Frontier Fios (or the other spinoff; I forget its name) = Faux-ios.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> Curious that it's limited to Pro/Plus for now, and not the standalone Stream. I wonder if that's a marketing decision, or if there's a real technical reason?


As I understand it they are releasing the software for the standalone stream as a part of the Premiere fall software release.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

wmcbrine said:


> Yeah, "Fios" without qualifier = Verizon Fios. Frontier Fios (or the other spinoff; I forget its name) = Faux-ios.


Hey now. Except for the copy protection and the better customer service, our FiOS is identical to Verizon's.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

bayern_fan said:


> Is there a way to get component out on a Roamio base with such a converter? (or possibly a breakout cable)
> 
> If so, I might pick up a Slingbox 350 to replace my Stream


The Roamio base unit has a composite output. If you are looking for OOH streaming, the 480 lines resolution that you get from the composite out may be about all your upstream connection plus internet and local wifi wherever you are will support anyway. Its a pretty rare occurace that true HD makes it out reliably and continuously unless you have a very high end internet connection with lots of upstream bandwidth.

I use a stream 350 with the composite out put. I had intended to go the HDfury route but decided to give this a try before spending more money. Its pretty darn good for streaming to a tablet or phone. You may also decide its good enough.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

jcthorne said:


> The Roamio base unit has a composite output. If you are looking for OOH streaming, the 480 lines resolution that you get from the composite out may be about all your upstream connection plus internet and local wifi wherever you are will support anyway. Its a pretty rare occurace that true HD makes it out reliably and continuously unless you have a very high end internet connection with lots of upstream bandwidth.


I don't think it's that rare... have one of the lower FiOS plans 50 down, 25 up. And while you may not be bothered on an iPhone screen, you're likely to notice/miss the difference between 480i and 480p+ on larger displays (like tablets and big phones). And what we've learned is that TiVo has a much narrower band of adaptive bitrate to work with, suggesting Sling will do better under lower and higher bandwidth.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

davezatz said:


> I don't think it's that rare... have one of the lower FiOS plans 50 down, 25 up. And while you may not be bothered on an iPhone screen, you're likely to notice/miss the difference between 480i and 480p+ on larger displays (like tablets and big phones). And what we've learned is that TiVo has a much narrower band of adaptive bitrate to work with, suggesting Sling will do better under lower and higher bandwidth.


OK not "that rare", which could mean 5% or 10%. Most of us don't have such high upload bandwidth options as FIOS offers. I guess it's typical of those who "have" to start thinking they are the mainstream case. I remember Verizon stopping FIOS build outs. Are there any fiber-into-the-home build outs going on now, or planned, other than the Google cities?


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## StevesWeb (Dec 26, 2008)

dlfl said:


> Are there any fiber-into-the-home build outs going on now, or planned?


Google Fiber


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

dlfl said:


> OK not "that rare", which could mean 5% or 10%. Most of us don't have such high upload bandwidth options as FIOS offers. I guess it's typical of those who "have" to start thinking they are the mainstream case. I remember Verizon stopping FIOS build outs. Are there any fiber-into-the-home build outs going on now, or planned, other than the Google cities?


Lower end Xfinity Internet is 20/4 which is sufficient for better-than-480i 100% of the time. Mid tier Xfinity is 50/10 which has more than enough overhead for HD full time. The only folks who are really impacted would be those on DSL or unwilling to pay a bit more for better bandwidth. And the beauty of Sling and even TiVo is the adaptive bitrate - you'll get better quality when the upload and download conditions allow it.

For point of reference, at it's peak streaming capabilities TiVo Stream/Roamio only uses 2.2Megabit. Efficient codecs and high compression at play. I'd advise avoiding composite outputs.


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## jimmypowder (Oct 24, 2013)

I'm glad I did not buy the Roamio plus for it's streaming capabilities . I have 120 Mbps download / 20 Mbps upload and I get freezing at the house . 

I can't get streaming to work outside my house because it said I had not setup streaming when in fact I did . So right now and as can be seen by the Apple reviews of the Tivo app, it's not a reliable streamer .


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

jimmypowder said:


> I'm glad I did not buy the Roamio plus for it's streaming capabilities . I have 120 Mbps download / 20 Mbps upload and I get freezing at the house .
> 
> I can't get streaming to work outside my house because it said I had not setup streaming when in fact I did . So right now and as can be seen by the Apple reviews of the Tivo app, it's not a reliable streamer .


Are you using WiFi or hardwired to your Roamio?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jimmypowder said:


> I'm glad I did not buy the Roamio plus for it's streaming capabilities . I have 120 Mbps download / 20 Mbps upload and I get freezing at the house .
> 
> I can't get streaming to work outside my house because it said I had not setup streaming when in fact I did . So right now and as can be seen by the Apple reviews of the Tivo app, it's not a reliable streamer .


Sounds like you've got some other issue.

As for the setup you have to do it again and make sure there is a check next to the out of home options.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

FYI, looks like going through the check in iOS app and enabling OOH results in "Proxy Enabled" check box being enabled when checking Stream sysinfo:
http://<streamIP>:49152/sysinfo
Before performing the check on an iPad Mini the "Proxy Enabled" check box was not enabled.
So looks like the process registers the iOS device MAC address with the TiVo Proxy server to allow OOH streaming.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

davezatz said:


> Lower end Xfinity Internet is 20/4 which is sufficient for better-than-480i 100% of the time. Mid tier Xfinity is 50/10 which has more than enough overhead for HD full time. The only folks who are really impacted would be those on DSL or unwilling to pay a bit more for better bandwidth. And the beauty of Sling and even TiVo is the adaptive bitrate - you'll get better quality when the upload and download conditions allow it.
> 
> For point of reference, at it's peak streaming capabilities TiVo Stream/Roamio only uses 2.2Megabit. Efficient codecs and high compression at play. I'd advise avoiding composite outputs.


I'm on TWC "standard" internet with only 1 Mbps uploads. However I see I can pay $20/mo more and get 5 Mbps uploads. So your point is taken, unless TWC has data caps or other restrictions on the use of that service. Hard to believe but such info is hard to get from their web site.


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## jimmypowder (Oct 24, 2013)

zalusky said:


> Are you using WiFi or hardwired to your Roamio?


Hardwired via a Ethernet hub . I only use one device at a time via the hub .


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Lower end Xfinity Internet is 20/4 which is sufficient for better-than-480i 100% of the time. Mid tier Xfinity is 50/10 which has more than enough overhead for HD full time. The only folks who are really impacted would be those on DSL or unwilling to pay a bit more for better bandwidth. And the beauty of Sling and even TiVo is the adaptive bitrate - you'll get better quality when the upload and download conditions allow it.
> 
> For point of reference, at it's peak streaming capabilities TiVo Stream/Roamio only uses 2.2Megabit. Efficient codecs and high compression at play. I'd advise avoiding composite outputs.


Nice that you live in an area served by FIOS. I and many others are not so lucky. Currently have a 12/.768 DSL business line. Runs $26 a month all in. The other provider in my area is Comcast and the least expensive option better than what I currently have is a 25/2 line from them, at $95 a month. Comcast Xfinity home use is capped and I would exceed their cap with the streaming and data use we have so a business line that is uncapped is required via ATT or Comcast. Its not worth $70 a month for the slight improvement. Comcast also does not warranty the data speeds, its 'up to' ATT has contract minimums and they do honor it, repairing lines when service suffers. I have been with them for about 6 yrs now and while I wish they would upgrade to provide higher bandwidth, what I do have works well. I cannot say the same for Comcast that we put up with for years prior to that.


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## jimmypowder (Oct 24, 2013)

I recently bougt a Tivo Roamio Plus and just talked to a tech support person who told me that streaming outside the home network is not available yet. I thought the Plus and Pro
could do this now.

I have not been able to get streaming outside the home network to work . All the buttons are greyed out on Watch Now.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jimmypowder said:


> I recently bougt a Tivo Roamio Plus and just talked to a tech support person who told me that streaming outside the home network is not available yet. I thought the Plus and Pro
> could do this now.
> 
> I have not been able to get streaming outside the home network to work . All the buttons are greyed out on Watch Now.


It works for the Roamio Plus & Pro. You have to run setup on the app while connected to your home wifi. This verifies that the device is allowed to stream outside the home. After that streaming will only work when connected to wifi, but download will work when connected to either wifi or LTE.

Also the out of home streaming is protected by CCI byte. Which means you will not be able to stream or download anything your cable company marks as protected. In most areas the only channels marked as protected are premium channels, but in some areas, especially those serviced by Time Warner, they protect everything so the feature is basically useless.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

And I still don't understand WTF that's all about. Preventing us from downloading shows with the CCI byte makes sense. Why can't we stream them? I thought streaming was meant to address that. Feels to me like TiVo is being too cautious with this, to the detriment of customer experience.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

jimmypowder said:


> I recently bougt a Tivo Roamio Plus and just talked to a tech support person who told me that streaming outside the home network is not available yet. I thought the Plus and Pro
> could do this now.
> 
> I have not been able to get streaming outside the home network to work . All the buttons are greyed out on Watch Now.


Remember - this only works if you using a WiFi signal. It will not work using your Tablet or phone cellular connection.

That update is scheduled for sometime in 2014 once Apple approves TiVo's implementation.

So - you need to setup the streaming services from the IOS app while you are on your home wifi network.

_*AND*_

The service will only work when you are connected to a WiFi connection away from home. (some cellualar functionality does exist, but is true for what you are requesting)


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## jimmypowder (Oct 24, 2013)

bradleys said:


> Remember - this only works if you using a WiFi signal. It will not work using your Tablet or phone cellular connection. That update is scheduled for sometime in 2014 once Apple approves TiVo's implementation. So - you need to setup the streaming services from the IOS app while you are on your home wifi network. AND The service will only work when you are connected to a WiFi connection away from home. (some cellualar functionality does exist, but is true for what you are requesting)


Yeah I know this . I just received an update notice for the Tivo app, downloaded it , and I'm at the Apple Store and I can now watch tv on wifi away 
From the home .

Great !


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> And I still don't understand WTF that's all about. Preventing us from downloading shows with the CCI byte makes sense. Why can't we stream them? I thought streaming was meant to address that. Feels to me like TiVo is being too cautious with this, to the detriment of customer experience.


I agree, but we don't really know what sort of push back they're getting from CableLabs on this. Outside the home streaming is not something that is covered in the CableCARD specification and there is no precedent for this anywhere else. The only device on the market that allows outside the home streaming from all channels is the Dish DVR with built in Slingbox and they are currently being sued by several networks over that feature. Perhaps TiVo is waiting to see how that pans out before they push their luck and wind up in court too.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Grrrrr.... So we TWC subscribers can't do OOH on the vast majority of our channels. And TiVo is hiding this limitation in obscure fine print in the FAQ for the Roamio's, just as they did for TTG for earlier models, e.g.:


> Due to the copy protection assigned by the content provider, not all content can be downloaded to your mobile device for offline viewing, and not all content can be streamed when you are away from your local network.


So a TWC subscriber easily could spend hundreds of $$ getting a Roamio and then find OOH is almost useless to them. I have a Tivo HD with lifetime sub and could get comparable OOH capability by adding a SlingBox 350 for well under $200, correct? I realize you must use component video/audio outputs to do this, but I'm already connected to my TV that way because the HD would lock up using HDMI.

I think not being more forthcoming with the copy protection limits on OOH is bad on Tivo.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

dlfl said:


> I think not being more forthcoming with the copy protection limits on OOH is bad on Tivo.


It was reported by the reviewers before the Roamio was released and has been discussed here ad nauseam for weeks.

You have a TiVo HD? So you haven't purchased a Roamio or even a Premiere? Then you don't have Stream and haven't been duped by a non-forthcoming TiVo?

I am just trying to get my facts straight.

I also think it is garbage that we don't have a cable labs legal interpretation of this decision. I don't know whether to be upset at TiVo or not...

Disclaimer: I have FIOS and not the ultra restrictive TWC


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

bradleys said:


> It was reported by the reviewers before the Roamio was released and has been discussed here ad nauseam for weeks.


Regular consumers don't visit here. And no, this wasn't reported by reviewers before the Roamio was released. There was conjecture, assumptions and reassurances, none of which were based on facts (we later learned.)

Even *we* were wondering with baited breath how this would play out, and only until getting the app update in our hands last week were we able to finally see just how restrictive OOH streaming was going to be, for those cable subscribers whose channels are all set with the CCI byte. (Like myself, on Time Warner.)

I had been led to assume that streaming was the solution here, and that it'd work just as well out of the home as it does inside the home. It wasn't until about a month ago that it was floated that TiVo would devise another way to let the wind our of my sails and disappoint us, yet again.

That being said, regular consumers don't get nearly the same amount of information as we do. And many, I assure you, will be surprised to see just how limited OOH streaming actually is. dlfl's point stands.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

You can't expect TiVo to put in big letters as if it is a feature "hey this might not work when you get it home". No one would even consider it. They do not hide the fact that it doesn't work with CCI restricted content. It's a balance to be sure, but they're not duping anyone.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

Why don't you complain to your cable company about the restrictions instead of bashing tivo for your cable company's restrictions?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Duping? No. Bending over and taking it up the butt from their MSO friends yet again, while simultaneously screwing a large portion of their retail customers (you know, the ones that bought your boxes)? Yes.

Tivo is equally if not more at blame here because they decided that in-home streaming is ok, but OOH is not. I seriously doubt TWC et al gives a crap because the precedent already exists to allow streaming.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> Duping? No. Bending over and taking it up the butt from their MSO friends yet again, while simultaneously screwing a large portion of their retail customers (you know, the ones that bought your boxes)? Yes.
> 
> Tivo is equally if not more at blame here because they decided that in-home streaming is ok, but OOH is not. I seriously doubt TWC et al gives a crap because the precedent already exists to allow streaming.


This. 1000%.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

slowbiscuit said:


> Duping? No. Bending over and taking it up the butt from their MSO friends yet again, while simultaneously screwing a large portion of their retail customers (you know, the ones that bought your boxes)? Yes.
> 
> Tivo is equally if not more at blame here because they decided that in-home streaming is ok, but OOH is not. I seriously doubt TWC et al gives a crap because the precedent already exists to allow streaming.


I'm sure if they could completely ignore the CCI flag, they would. Why would they want to piss off their customers? The fact is, however, that they are at the mercy of CableLabs. If they don't follow whatever rules CableLabs put forth, then they don't get Cable Card approval and then they're out of business. If CableLabs said they had to paint the lobby of their headquarters neon green, they'd have to do it.

And if TWC didn't care, they wouldn't be setting the CCI flag.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

Dan203 said:


> I agree, but we don't really know what sort of push back they're getting from CableLabs on this. Outside the home streaming is not something that is covered in the CableCARD specification and there is no precedent for this anywhere else. The only device on the market that allows outside the home streaming from all channels is the Dish DVR with built in Slingbox and they are currently being sued by several networks over that feature. Perhaps TiVo is waiting to see how that pans out before they push their luck and wind up in court too.


This is silly. Streaming in the home and out of the home should not matter if confined to an existing user's account. Slingbox technology is not going to be ruled illegal, so why would Tivo hide behind fringe lawsuits that take years to pan out. By that time, everyone will be offering out of house streaming, and the small advantage Tivo has will be gone.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

JosephB said:


> I'm sure if they could completely ignore the CCI flag, they would. Why would they want to piss off their customers? The fact is, however, that they are at the mercy of CableLabs. If they don't follow whatever rules CableLabs put forth, then they don't get Cable Card approval and then they're out of business. If CableLabs said they had to paint the lobby of their headquarters neon green, they'd have to do it.


You're making a HUGE assumption that Tivo actually verified with CableLabs that it was explicitly not allowed. I think the truth more likely lies in staying in bed with their MSO partners, because that's where the money is. Retail customers always get the shaft from Tivo w/CCI.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bradleys said:


> ,,,,,,,You have a TiVo HD? So you haven't purchased a Roamio or even a Premiere? Then you don't have Stream and haven't been duped by a non-forthcoming TiVo?
> 
> I am just trying to get my facts straight.
> ..............


So?? I easily could have been mislead when considering a Roamio purchase. Fortunately I read these forums so avoided that.


JosephB said:


> You can't expect TiVo to put in big letters as if it is a feature "hey this might not work when you get it home". No one would even consider it. They do not hide the fact that it doesn't work with CCI restricted content. It's a balance to be sure, but they're not duping anyone.


There's a big space between "big letters" and the obscure statement buried in a FAQ. I think an asterick linked to a footnote explaining the copy protection limitations would be OK.


geekmedic said:


> Why don't you complain to your cable company about the restrictions instead of bashing tivo for your cable company's restrictions?


TWC Tivo customers have complained --- in writing --- for years and TWC responds with lawyer letters explaining they have a legal right to copy protect (which is correct). I could provide a link to at least one large thread on this forum detailing this but it isn't worth digging up. TWC is the second largest MSO and Tivo has known about this for more than three years. The least they could do is be more open about letting potential buyers know about the limitation.

I have to wonder how many of you grin-and-bear-it posters have actually suffered from the TTG (and now, OOH) limitations imposed by TWC.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

So another question is, if Tivo is so damn worried about OOH streaming, why has Slingbox been doing it for years and not been sued? Don't you think Tivo would point this out to CableLabs or any MSO as a precedent? Yeah I know, analog vs. digital, but it's not as if component outputs have gone away on the boxes.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> I seriously doubt TWC et al gives a crap because the precedent already exists to allow streaming.


Indeed. Why else did TiVo introduce streaming then? As an antidote to the CCI ("copy once") flag. They should strap on a set of balls and let streaming work outside the home, too. Because the fact of the matter is, if I'm at home I'm going to be watching on the TiVo/TV anyway. This function and feature is only useful to me on an iPad (and many others, I imagine) if they opened it up to work outside the home as it works inside the home.

I'm just tired of TiVo being slow and meek about these things, it's always so disappointing. They need to be more aggressive and innovative, IMO.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

mr_smits said:


> This is silly. Streaming in the home and out of the home should not matter if confined to an existing user's account. Slingbox technology is not going to be ruled illegal, so why would Tivo hide behind fringe lawsuits that take years to pan out. By that time, everyone will be offering out of house streaming, and the small advantage Tivo has will be gone.


How do you know Sling technology won't be ruled illegal, especially in the context of being integrated into a cable box? The only reason TiVo is in business today is because other companies said "damn the torpedoes" and infringed on TiVo's patents and TiVo raked it in pretty big. I'm sure they are not itching to jump in feet first without making sure they're not making the same mistakes Echostar/Dish, AT&T, Scientific Atlanta, Motorola, and Time Warner made.



slowbiscuit said:


> You're making a HUGE assumption that Tivo actually verified with CableLabs that it was explicitly not allowed. I think the truth more likely lies in staying in bed with their MSO partners, because that's where the money is. Retail customers always get the shaft from Tivo w/CCI.


How am *I* making a huge assumption? It's not that unreasonable to think that CCI, something CableLabs wanted in the spec, would be pushed further into new features by CableLabs. We're all making assumptions here. How reasonable those assumptions turn out to be is a matter of opinion.

And, even if they are simply kowtowing to the MSOs, so what? Without the MSO deals they've signed, they'd be out of business. The lawsuit judgements they got from the various companies they sued would last only so long. At the end of the day the MSOs are also their customers, and it's in TiVo's interest to make their most important customers happy. If that's the MSOs, then sucks to be us. TiVo does a lot of things for retail customers that I think suck (pause ads for example) and those you can legitimately gripe about, because that's doing nothing for the MSOs. But if there's a constrained environment that they live within, and going outside of those constraints would mean their going out of business, I can't fault them for it.



slowbiscuit said:


> So another question is, if Tivo is so damn worried about OOH streaming, why has Slingbox been doing it for years and not been sued? Don't you think Tivo would point this out to CableLabs or any MSO as a precedent? Yeah I know, analog vs. digital, but it's not as if component outputs have gone away on the boxes.


Dish is currently involved in litigation revolving around both the commercial skipping and the Sling technology in the Hopper.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Fofer said:


> I'm just tired of TiVo being slow and meek about these things, it's always so disappointing. They need to be more aggressive and innovative, IMO.


I actually agree with you... I do think that Tivo at least owes its customers an answer to the question "why not"

It would be one thing if the CCI language addressed streaming, but it does not. So either a dictate came down from Cable Labs that provided a legal guidlines for implementing stream - or Tivo made this decision on their own to avoid the possibility of litigation from the MSO's.

Since Cable Labs is a government organization, the proceedings are open and any guidance should be FOIA available.

If TiVo is so littigation weary that they just want to avoid any possibility (or direct threat) of littigation - at least be direct in the promotional materials.

If this just impacted HBO, It wouldn't really be that big of a deal. But with TWC - it really is a major pain for those customers.

I am glad I have FIOS!!!!

Maybe they are waiting from the DISH litigation to run its course:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57...urt-to-block-sales-of-dish-hopper-with-sling/


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

bradleys said:


> Since Cable Labs is a government organization, the proceedings are open and any guidance should be FOIA available.
> 
> If TiVo is so littigation weary that they just want to avoid any possibility (or direct threat) of littigation - at least be direct in the promotional materials.
> 
> ...


CableLabs is not a government organization. It is an industry trade group founded by the cable companies.

No company is going to say, especially in marketing material, "function X doesn't work like Y because we are worried about getting sued." You might get the CEO eventually to say something in an interview somewhere, but those kinds of things really don't come out publicly in general.

And if TWC is misusing the CCI flag, that is TWC's fault, not TiVo's. Customers should be complaining to TWC and the FCC. Actually, you probably would have a case to make with the FCC since TWC has a lot of streaming apps nowdays over IP services, and their setting of the CCI flag prevents you from using TiVo.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> You're making a HUGE assumption that Tivo actually verified with CableLabs that it was explicitly not allowed. I think the truth more likely lies in staying in bed with their MSO partners, because that's where the money is.


You speak as though CableLabs and the MSOs were two separate things. They're not.



bradleys said:


> Since Cable Labs is a government organization, the proceedings are open and any guidance should be FOIA available.


CableLabs is certainly not a government organization. It's a private, ostensibly non-profit corporation, owned by the cable companies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableLabs


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Okay, I misunderstood the authority granted to cablelabs to determine and interpret these content based regulations. That is fine...

What I have found is that even Sling will not allow you to place-shift protected content. Requiring the analog connection to bypass HDCP protections.



> HDCP-protected, it cant be placeshifted.


http://placeshiftingenthusiasts.com/slingbox-500-setup-steps-and-review/

This ruling on place-shifting has to come from someplace - and everyone says that the CCI Byte has no language on streaming (place shifting). Isn't this the same thing?

I know that the CCI Byte is one specific control mechanism and isn't necessarily the same as HDCP protections - but those are all mechanisms for the same outcome:

Limiting the number of times a user can copy content, and apparently limiting the ability to place-shift content.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

bradleys said:


> I actually agree with you... I do think that Tivo at least owes its customers an answer to the question "why not"
> 
> It would be one thing if the CCI language addressed streaming, but it does not. So either a dictate came down from Cable Labs that provided a legal guidlines for implementing stream - or Tivo made this decision on their own to avoid the possibility of litigation from the MSO's.
> 
> ...


CableLabs is not a government organization by any measure. It's composed of, and governed by, the cable companies (you have to be cable company to be a member, and the board of directors are CEOs of major companies.) So there's no hope of information there.

My belief has always been that even in-house streaming is probably a violation of the CableLabs regulations; I went through the regulations pretty carefully back when TiVo first started with cable cards, looking for ways that TiVo could move CCI protected shows. IMO, in-house is only being allowed because Dish and DirecTV did it first - they're not subject to CableLabs or cablecard regulations. The cable companies won't give that competitive advantage to the satellite companies.

So far, it's not clear what CableLabs (ie, Time Warner since nobody else cares as much) will allow. I think TiVo is hoping that CableLabs will allow out-of-house at some point, so they don't want to preclude it in their advertising. None of us know whether TiVo has talked to CableLabs or has any ideas about when this will be decided. The language TiVo uses now is very circumspect, and will fit the situation no matter which way CableLabs goes.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> So another question is, if Tivo is so damn worried about OOH streaming, why has Slingbox been doing it for years and not been sued? Don't you think Tivo would point this out to CableLabs or any MSO as a precedent? Yeah I know, analog vs. digital, but it's not as if component outputs have gone away on the boxes.


Simple answer: Cable TV (MSO's and their CableLabs) has a lot more leverage on Tivo than they do on SlingBox. Poor implementation and support of CableCARD, and even worse Tuning Adapters, is already hurting Tivo. If Tivo provokes the MSO's they could do a lot worse. (Please don't claim the FCC would prevent it. They haven't been able to prevent the poor support that's already going on.) SlingBox has no reason to be concerned about good relations with Cable TV.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

JosephB said:


> How do you know Sling technology won't be ruled illegal, especially in the context of being integrated into a cable box? ...
> 
> Dish is currently involved in litigation revolving around both the commercial skipping and the Sling technology in the Hopper.


Common sense and history about the evolution of technology? The same reason VCRs, mp3s, file sharing, and torrents are not illegal. You can't put the genie back into the bottle. Tivo should take advantage while they even have an advantage to take!

Don't conflate the issues with commercial skipping and Sling technology. Two separate issues even though one company, DISH, is pushing them both.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

bradleys said:


> Okay, I misunderstood the authority granted to cablelabs to determine and interpret these content based regulations. That is fine...
> 
> What I have found is that even Sling will not allow you to place-shift protected content. Requiring the analog connection to bypass HDCP protections.
> 
> ...


The inability of Sling to copy HDCP protected content output over HDMI is an HDMI restriction. They could not get a license for HDMI or HDCP if they broke that rule. You can't output HDCP protected content to any non-secure display. That's another reason Sling can do things TiVo cannot, Sling still has the analog hole to slip through. TiVo cannot do that without going back to the old way of using boxes and IR blasters and blech.



CrispyCritter said:


> CableLabs is not a government organization by any measure. It's composed of, and governed by, the cable companies (you have to be cable company to be a member, and the board of directors are CEOs of major companies.) So there's no hope of information there.
> 
> My belief has always been that even in-house streaming is probably a violation of the CableLabs regulations; I went through the regulations pretty carefully back when TiVo first started with cable cards, looking for ways that TiVo could move CCI protected shows. IMO, in-house is only being allowed because Dish and DirecTV did it first - they're not subject to CableLabs or cablecard regulations. The cable companies won't give that competitive advantage to the satellite companies.
> 
> So far, it's not clear what CableLabs (ie, Time Warner since nobody else cares as much) will allow. I think TiVo is hoping that CableLabs will allow out-of-house at some point, so they don't want to preclude it in their advertising. None of us know whether TiVo has talked to CableLabs or has any ideas about when this will be decided. The language TiVo uses now is very circumspect, and will fit the situation no matter which way CableLabs goes.


Cable companies do in-house streaming, too. I think the difference is that theoretically you could do "in house streaming" by stringing wires between all the TVs and one box. Moving content outside of your house is a whole other story. The MSOs see themselves as selling a subscription to a location, not a person. That is the big difference.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

JosephB said:


> Cable companies do in-house streaming, too. I think the difference is that theoretically you could do "in house streaming" by stringing wires between all the TVs and one box. Moving content outside of your house is a whole other story. The MSOs see themselves as selling a subscription to a location, not a person. That is the big difference.


That's not the difference according to the cablecard regulations. The regulations were pretty clear on a full copy of a show not escaping the cablecard device, unless it was an approved method (I think Firewire was being looked at) to an approved device. That's a reason why TiVo has not wanted to put full copies of shows on their external disk extenders, IMO.

Yes, the cable companies do in-house streaming now, but the satellite companies were first. That's why, IMO, TiVo was allowed to do it - because the cable companies were planning on doing it themselves in response to the satellite companies, and CableLabs would get into major hot water if they prohibited TiVo from doing it.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> The only device on the market that allows outside the home streaming from all channels is the Dish DVR with built in Slingbox and they are currently being sued by several networks over that feature.


This is not true.

From June 2013:

Engadget: DirecTV GenieGo takes the fight to Sling, brings TV streaming anywhere on PC and iOS



> What's New in Version 2.2.116
> 
> - The DIRECTV® nomad app is now the DIRECTV GenieGO™ app.
> - *Now instantly stream recordings on your HD DVR anywhere you have a Wi-Fi Internet connection without having to be on the home network.* Just click "Watch Now" on any program in your Playlist to start watching instantly.
> - Set programs to prepare for download while you are away from home so they are ready to download when you arrive home.


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## jimmypowder (Oct 24, 2013)

I'm glad Tivo took this step .I just want to watch the content I paid for anywhere I want !

It's not like someone is hovering over my back at the airport attempting to steal my ipad
watching of Tivo content.

Its time for the dinosaurs of the media business who want to lock down everything to come to realize that the times are a changin.

Of course,this may not happen without a legal battle here or there. 

I find it very interesting that TIvo set up streaming to record and then stream the content
Very smart !You are actually then watching something you are recording .


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Does the DIRECTV GenieGO allow streaming of HBO?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> This is not true.
> 
> From June 2013:
> 
> Engadget: DirecTV GenieGo takes the fight to Sling, brings TV streaming anywhere on PC and iOS


I don't think that's true. I think DirecTV has special deals with specific channels that allow streaming outside the home and only shows from those channels are allowed. It's sort of like their own internal CCI byte. Except that because they are in direct control of both the partnerships and the hardware they have a bit of an advantage compared to TiVo who is basically an outsider making hardware for someone else's service.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jimmypowder said:


> I'm glad Tivo took this step .I just want to watch the content I paid for anywhere I want !
> 
> It's not like someone is hovering over my back at the airport attempting to steal my ipad
> watching of Tivo content.
> ...


I think these guys feel that if you don't have access to these shows via streaming from your DVR then you're more likely to watch the ad supported version on their website or buy a copy of the show from iTunes, Amazon, etc... So to them opening this up costs them money. TimeWarner is the biggest believer in this probably because they are also in the content creation business. We may eventually see Comcast take a similar stance now that they own NBC.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> I don't think that's true. I think DirecTV has special deals with specific channels that allow streaming outside the home and only shows from those channels are allowed. It's sort of like their own internal CCI byte. Except that because they are in direct control of both the partnerships and the hardware they have a bit of an advantage compared to TiVo who is basically an outsider making hardware for someone else's service.


Well then, I'm thinking the only way to know the real truth here is to find someone who has a DTV GenieGo and ask them. Surely someone in the forum has experience with one...


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> I think these guys feel that if you don't have access to these shows via streaming from your DVR then you're more likely to watch the ad supported version on their website or buy a copy of the show from iTunes, Amazon, etc... So to them opening this up costs them money. TimeWarner is the biggest believer in this probably because they are also in the content creation business. We may eventually see Comcast take a similar stance now that they own NBC.


Time Warner Cable is completely independent of Time Warner Inc., though the CCI byte screwup has been going on longer than that. I suspect they simply don't care.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> Well then, I'm thinking the only way to know the real truth here is to find someone who has a DTV GenieGo and ask them. Surely someone in the forum has experience with one...


I found some forum posts talking about it. I didn't see anything about specific channel restrictions. However I did find one post where the guy mentioned that you aren't allowed to FF when using it OOH. I wonder if that's how they appease the content providers by not allowing people to skip ads when OOH? But it was just one post, so that guy could have just been wrong.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Fofer said:


> Indeed. Why else did TiVo introduce streaming then?


How do you propose to make a Mini that works with MRV instead of MRS?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

SullyND said:


> How do you propose to make a Mini that works with MRV instead of MRS?


Point taken, but this distinction between "streaming within the home" and "streaming to my own authorized iPad outside the home" is just stupid. Whoever made this decision should be made aware -- it's inanity like that which ENCOURAGES folks to throw up their hands and just pirate what they want to watch, since it's easier.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Agreed. All this DRM stuff sucks. It hurts our business as well. (we can't support TW customers either) But I'm still not sure if TiVo is to blame. With Cable Labs basically holding the keys to TiVo's entire business we can't really blame them for not wanting to rock the boat. There was a time when TiVo had a major competitor, ReplayTV, who got really creative with the user centric features and they ended up getting sued out of business. So I can understand why TiVo would choose to tread lightly.

For those of us not on TW the feature still has use. Back in April I went on a business trip. I pre-downloaded a bunch of shows to my iPad using my Stream so I had stuff to watch in the hotel. However one thing I missed was the ability to watch The Daily Show every night before I went to bed. Those episodes were recorded on my TiVo at home but I had no way to watch them. This year I'll be able to stream or download them from the hotel. I'm looking forward to being able to do that.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

And, another thing, it's not just TiVo that gets bitten by this. PCI cable tuner cards are limited heavily by their CableLabs certification. There are a lot of novel uses for PC TV tuners that basically will never happen because of the driver lockdown on those tuners.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> However one thing I missed was the ability to watch The Daily Show every night before I went to bed. Those episodes were recorded on my TiVo at home but I had no way to watch them. This year I'll be able to stream or download them from the hotel. I'm looking forward to being able to do that.


Fortunately Plex also has a Daily Show channel so I can stream that from anywhere, for free. No commercials. And no upstream limit to worry about.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

JosephB said:


> And, another thing, it's not just TiVo that gets bitten by this. PCI cable tuner cards are limited heavily by their CableLabs certification. There are a lot of novel uses for PC TV tuners that basically will never happen because of the driver lockdown on those tuners.


Yep all those CCI flagged shows are locked down in the WTV format too. You can only play them in MCE on the PC that recorded them. And MCE is the only PC DVr software that can even record them, and it's been discontinued so in a few years there wont be any PC based DVRs at all which hurts our business as well.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> Yep all those CCI flagged shows are locked down in the WTV format too. You can only play them in MCE on the PC that recorded them. And MCE is the only PC DVr software that can even record them, and it's been discontinued so in a few years there wont be any PC based DVRs at all which hurts our business as well.


To be perfectly honest, if I could record ALL cablecard channels with a PCI card, I'd probably build a mythtv box than buy a TiVo, but having been in on the IR blaster DVR train at the beginning, I'm never going back. Plus, it's not like I dislike my TiVo


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

JosephB said:


> ............No company is going to say, especially in marketing material, "function X doesn't work like Y because we are worried about getting sued." You might get the CEO eventually to say something in an interview somewhere, but those kinds of things really don't come out publicly in general.


On the other hand, is it ethical to tout loudly about OOH and hide the fact that it will be severely crippled for about 25% of users in a FAQ?


JosephB said:


> And if TWC is misusing the CCI flag, that is TWC's fault, not TiVo's. Customers should be complaining to TWC and the FCC. Actually, you probably would have a case to make with the FCC since TWC has a lot of streaming apps nowdays over IP services, and their setting of the CCI flag prevents you from using TiVo.


As I stated in an earlier post Tivo users of TWC have been complaining to TWC for years. Not sure what your definition of "misusing" is but it has been established clearly that they have a legal right to copy protect as they do. As far as making a case with the FCC, well you may be right in principle. Personally, rather than wait months (or forever) for that paper tiger to do something, I will opt to just use SlingBox on my Tivo HD rather than spend many more hundreds of $$ on a Roamio.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The FCC has no orders about whether to use copy-control on anything above limited basic, so TWC is free to be as fascist as they are. TWC has repeatedly said that it is their right to do so, which again leaves the ball in Tivo's court for OOH streaming. And they dropped it, as they always do.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

So frustrating. Yes, we know, copy-control should (and does) prevent us from downloading recordings, in or out of home. But STREAMING was a brilliant solution for that, and it works great. Now they should let it work out of the home too. For many of their customers, that's the WHOLE POINT!


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> The FCC has no orders about whether to use copy-control on anything above limited basic, so TWC is free to be as fascist as they are. TWC has repeatedly said that it is their right to do so, which again leaves the ball in Tivo's court for OOH streaming. And they dropped it, as they always do.


I agree except "fascist" is inappropriate. That would mean the government controls industry, whereas in this case government is a paper tiger. However that may be fortunate overall. I'd hate to see cable TV and internet video actually controlled by the government -- that would be worse than TWC!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> So frustrating. Yes, we know, copy-control should (and does) prevent us from downloading recordings, in or out of home. But STREAMING was a brilliant solution for that, and it works great. Now they should let it work out of the home too. For many of their customers, that's the WHOLE POINT!


I took a survey once and they asked about a possible feature where they could move protected content to a device like an iPad but after it was moved it would not be accessible on the TiVo and there would be no way to move it back. The question was whether or not I would be interested in such a feature.

I think the next loophole in the whole MRV scheme is going to be a move feature. Technically the copy once flag says you can't make another copy of a show, but it doesn't technically prevent moving that show. As long as the show is never accessible on two different devices at once then technically you still only have one copy. If they can get that working then maybe TWCs over zealous use of the CCI byte wont matter as much.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

dlfl said:


> I agree except "fascist" is inappropriate. That would mean the government controls industry, whereas in this case government is a paper tiger. However that may be fortunate overall. I'd hate to see cable TV and internet video actually controlled by the government -- that would be worse than TWC!


They don't seem to mind it over in the UK. They still get quality programming, and with no commercials.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

dlfl said:


> On the other hand, is it ethical to tout loudly about OOH and hide the fact that it will be severely crippled for about 25% of users in a FAQ?
> 
> As I stated in an earlier post Tivo users of TWC have been complaining to TWC for years. Not sure what your definition of "misusing" is but it has been established clearly that they have a legal right to copy protect as they do. As far as making a case with the FCC, well you may be right in principle. Personally, rather than wait months (or forever) for that paper tiger to do something, I will opt to just use SlingBox on my Tivo HD rather than spend many more hundreds of $$ on a Roamio.


That's perfectly reasonable, and while streaming is a major feature being touted by TiVo for the Roamio, it's not the only one, and TiVo and Slingbox aren't 100% competitors. I got a four tuner Roamio because I don't need 6 tuners and, like you, I want to be able to stream 100% of my content so I am using my older slingbox, and will likely upgrade to a slingbox 350 soon. More or less the best of both worlds for about the same price as getting a 6 tuner Roamio.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

dlfl said:


> I agree except "fascist" is inappropriate. That would mean the government controls industry, whereas in this case government is a paper tiger. However that may be fortunate overall. I'd hate to see cable TV and internet video actually controlled by the government -- that would be worse than TWC!


Government has enough control that most people have only one cable company from which they can get service at their address.

And I think the Greenlight customers in Wilson, NC are pretty happy that government got involved when TWC couldn't be bothered.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Don't forget there are some advantages to a Romaio/Stream compared to a SlingBox. First off control is more direct, so skipping commercial is a LOT easier via the Stream. A Slingbox typically has at least a few seconds delay which makes control a bit of a challenge. The other advantage is that the Roamio/Stream does not take over the output of the TiVo. So you can have someone at home watching the TiVo and still watch something remotely without effecting them in any way. With a Slingbox you're mirroring the output of the TiVo so if you want to watch something you have to be sure no one is at home using the TiVo. (some people have dedicated a Mini to a Slingbox to get around this issue)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

unitron said:


> Government has enough control that most people have only one cable company from which they can get service at their address.
> 
> And I think the Greenlight customers in Wilson, NC are pretty happy that government got involved when TWC couldn't be bothered.


Yeah most cable companies have a government sanctioned monopoly. I guess Dish and DirecTV are options everywhere, but they're not really options for TiVo users. That's why I really wish that AllVid standard would have taken off. It would have allowed the provider to be completely transparent to the users equipment. You could have used the same TiVo for cable, Dish, DirecTV, even UVerse. Which is precisely why the providers fought so hard against it. They don't want you to have choices. They want to lock you into their service any way they can.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> Don't forget there are some advantages to a Romaio/Stream compared to a SlingBox. First off control is more direct, so skipping commercial is a LOT easier via the Stream. A Slingbox typically has at least a few seconds delay which makes control a bit of a challenge. The other advantage is that the Roamio/Stream does not take over the output of the TiVo. So you can have someone at home watching the TiVo and still watch something remotely without effecting them in any way. With a Slingbox you're mirroring the output of the TiVo so if you want to watch something you have to be sure no one is at home using the TiVo. (some people have dedicated a Mini to a Slingbox to get around this issue)


Absolutely true. There are positives and negatives to each method.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Don't forget there are some advantages to a Romaio/Stream compared to a SlingBox. First off control is more direct, so skipping commercial is a LOT easier via the Stream. A Slingbox typically has at least a few seconds delay which makes control a bit of a challenge. The other advantage is that the Roamio/Stream does not take over the output of the TiVo. So you can have someone at home watching the TiVo and still watch something remotely without effecting them in any way. With a Slingbox you're mirroring the output of the TiVo so if you want to watch something you have to be sure no one is at home using the TiVo. (some people have dedicated a Mini to a Slingbox to get around this issue)


Yes, SlingBox's whole "virtual on-screen remote" on the front end, with IR blasters on the back end, has always felt like a kludge to me. TiVo is so close to doing it right. And yet...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> They don't seem to mind it over in the UK. They still get quality programming, and with no commercials.





unitron said:


> Government has enough control that most people have only one cable company from which they can get service at their address.
> .......


Illustrating the complexities of discussing "government control". We have multiple levels of government (Federal, state, county, municipal, etc.). The UK case is about national government control while "most people have only one cable company" is usually a result of local (municipal) control.

I know nothing about UK cable content other than I enjoy things like Masterpiece Theater on PBS. However I suspect USA cultural tastes are more diverse than those in the UK and I strongly suspect a major portion of our populace would not be satisfied with UK offerings, or the content that would be offered if controlled by the Federal government. As for commercials, there is no free lunch. You pay for the content one way or another. But even the government manages to perform functions well and efficiently -- on rare occasions. 

I don't believe local cable monopolies can be blamed only on (local) government control. There are obvious economic drivers related to infrastructure cost. I don't believe another cable company would want to serve our neighborhood even if there were no franchise or other factors preventing it. Our infrastructure is cable-down-the-street (paid for by TWC). The total bandwidth would not allow sharing by two cable services, and the demand would not support laying more cable or fiber, even if there were no franchise problems. My guess is this situation is typical in the USA.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

dlfl said:


> I don't believe local cable monopolies can be blamed only on (local) government control. There are obvious economic drivers related to infrastructure cost. I don't believe another cable company would want to serve our neighborhood even if there were no franchise or other factors preventing it. Our infrastructure is cable-down-the-street (paid for by TWC). The total bandwidth would not allow sharing by two cable services, and the demand would not support laying more cable or fiber, even if there were no franchise problems. My guess is this situation is typical in the USA.


Yeah they sort of tried that back in the late 90s when they deregulated the phone industry. Supposedly it was going to open up the market and allow you to get phone and DSL from a bunch of different companies, and for a short period you could, but now 15 years later we're back to a point where AT&T is the only option in this area.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

Cable isn't an outright monopoly, it's just really,really expensive to overbuild and most cable companies don't enter existing markets. Not the same as the AT&T monopoly was back in the day.


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## mdscott (Jun 26, 2002)

JosephB said:


> Cable isn't an outright monopoly, it's just really,really expensive to overbuild and most cable companies don't enter existing markets. Not the same as the AT&T monopoly was back in the day.


And many if not most places require a franchise from at least one level of government -- further increasing difficulty of entering a market.

michael


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

mdscott said:


> And many if not most places require a franchise from at least one level of government -- further increasing difficulty of entering a market.
> 
> michael


True, but all providers require a franchise so it's just a cost of doing business. It's not an exceptional burden placed only on newcomers, for example.


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## jimmypowder (Oct 24, 2013)

JosephB said:


> Cable isn't an outright monopoly, it's just really,really expensive to overbuild and most cable companies don't enter existing markets. Not the same as the AT&T monopoly was back in the day.


It's a monopoly .


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

dlfl said:


> Poor implementation and support of CableCARD


????

Maybe "...except for everyone else"???


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

mattack said:


> ????
> 
> Maybe "...except for everyone else"???


 High on brevity ... low on clarity.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

jimmypowder said:


> It's a monopoly .


No, cable is not a monopoly. By law any provider can come in and get a franchise to build, but the high barriers to entry in a market prevent that from happening in most areas.

So, due to those costs cable has an 'effective' monopoly (or more accurately oligopoly because of other players like U-Verse, FIOS etc.) on wired TV service but it's not because of government restrictions in most cases. And of course you can also get DirecTV and Dish.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, cable is not a monopoly. By law any provider can come in and get a franchise to build, but the high barriers to entry in a market prevent that from happening in most areas.
> 
> So, due to those costs cable has an 'effective' monopoly (or more accurately oligopoly because of other players like U-Verse, FIOS etc.) on wired TV service but it's not because of government restrictions in most cases. And of course you can also get DirecTV and Dish.


Exactly. Strictly on TV service, there are actually only a few places--anywhere with line of sight or lack of installation locations for a dish--that cable is 100% truly the only choice. Many of those places now have U-Verse or FiOS.

Cable is an effective monopoly (except in FiOS areas) when it comes to CableCard services, but at that point you're so far in the weeds and it's such a small market you're not going to get a lot of traction or sympathy from anyone other than the FCC.


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## jimmypowder (Oct 24, 2013)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, cable is not a monopoly. By law any provider can come in and get a franchise to build, but the high barriers to entry in a market prevent that from happening in most areas.
> 
> So, due to those costs cable has an 'effective' monopoly (or more accurately oligopoly because of other players like U-Verse, FIOS etc.) on wired TV service but it's not because of government restrictions in most cases. And of course you can also get DirecTV and Dish.


If the barriers are too high,which is absolutely true,in reality it has become a monopoly.

i can't wait till all my media,video and audio comes through Comcast's dumb pipe ! Someone ,Google Apple ,etc will get this done .

Of course Comcast and Co. will try to drive internet only prices through the roof to avoid becoming a dumb pipe.

This is when the real competition will begin. The sooner the better.


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## jimmypowder (Oct 24, 2013)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, cable is not a monopoly. By law any provider can come in and get a franchise to build, but the high barriers to entry in a market prevent that from happening in most areas.
> 
> So, due to those costs cable has an 'effective' monopoly (or more accurately oligopoly because of other players like U-Verse, FIOS etc.) on wired TV service but it's not because of government restrictions in most cases. And of course you can also get DirecTV and Dish.


I cannot get Direct Tv , too many trees


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

I have two Roamio (basic) boxes. If I get a stream, will it work for both boxes at home, or just one of them? Not having one, I have no idea how it works technically.

Tkx.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yes it'll work for any Premiere or Roamio on your network. The only limitation is that while the Stream can live anywhere on your network the connection between it and the TiVo(s) have to be wired, either Ethernet or MoCa.

Also the standalone Stream does not yet support OOH streaming. That's not coming for a couple more weeks.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Yes it'll work for any Premiere or Roamio on your network. The only limitation is that while the Stream can live anywhere on your network the connection between it and the TiVo(s) have to be wired, either Ethernet or MoCa.


Yeah, my main TiVo will be able to do that, but the secondary one won't, as that's wireless on the other side of the house. That's about 95% kids shows, so we're unlikely to be streaming them outside the house anyway.



> Also the standalone Stream does not yet support OOH streaming. That's not coming for a couple more weeks.


Oh, I know. Just gathering info. Danke.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> I don't think that's true. I think DirecTV has special deals with specific channels that allow streaming outside the home and only shows from those channels are allowed. It's sort of like their own internal CCI byte.


According to TCF's own Hoffer, who has a DirecTV Genie Go:



Hoffer said:


> Everything works except pay per view and on demand recordings.


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