# CES 2009, Any guesses on what we will see from TiVo?



## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

CES 2009 January 8-11th. Could be very busy at the TiVo booth this year. I am very excited to see what TiVo shows off. Tru2way box? DirecTV HD box?

I can't wait.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

I'd be willing to bet you $20 that they won't demo ads on pause.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

RoyK said:


> I'd be willing to bet you $20 that they won't demo ads on pause.


Why? It's not like they're ashamed of it.

The only thing I can think of they might show is a new DirecTV unit.


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## darksurtur (Jan 2, 2008)

MickeS said:


> Why? It's not like they're ashamed of it.
> 
> The only thing I can think of they might show is a new DirecTV unit.


Isn't it too early to have functioning new DirecTiVos? Wouldn't it be more likely to see a Tru2Way Series 4 device, even if it's an early build?


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm suspecting that whenever things in the Tivo booth go completely quiet, some employee will suddenly belt out a product jingle....


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## JeffKusnitz (Apr 9, 2008)

BlackBetty said:


> CES 2009 January 8-11th. Could be very busy at the TiVo booth this year. I am very excited to see what TiVo shows off. Tru2way box? DirecTV HD box?
> 
> I can't wait.


I'm looking forward to the announcement of a quad-tuner TivoHD box.


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## NickIN (Dec 26, 2002)

If history is a guide...whatever they show new at CES 2009 it will be until at least CES 2010 and probably almost CES 2011 before it's on the market. Hopefully with the new infusion of cash from their lawsuit they can speed up product development. My DirecTV HR-20 makes me cuss on almost a daily basis.


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## rv65 (Aug 30, 2008)

I could see the Series 4 tru2way box. Tivo might also make a HD2 which would be a decontented version. Similar to the Tivo HD/Series 3. Or Just make a Tivo HD2 and an HD2 XL.


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## QZ1 (Mar 24, 2003)

NickIN said:


> If history is a guide...whatever they show new at CES 2009 it will be until at least CES 2010 and probably almost CES 2011 before it's on the market.


Yes, knowing when CE manufacturers usually intro. products, I would say between 1 March and 1 Nov. '10. Probably in Spring, is my guess.

Does anyone think it will be, or even could be, earlier?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I think TiVo will be talking about streaming but I do not think they will have anything much in the new hardware dept. unless they bring some "do not touch" prototypes with them


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

about a week and a half to go! The excitement is building.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

I'm hoping to hear more partner announcements, like maybe Hulu. That might actually mean I can drop cable all together and do OTA HD and Hulu for everything else.

We might see a Tru2Way demo, but I agree with others that even if we do, the product won't ship until 2011 or 2012 at the earliest.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I'd like to see more partnerships using internet for content. TWC is so poor to work with, but there are no other cable options in my area. Hulu would be good, or agreements with networks and the better cable content providers (of course, when I say better, it won't be what everyone sees as better).


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I would not be surprised to see a demo of the UI showed in those videos on Engadget a month or two back.


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## Mindflux (Jan 16, 2008)

bkdtv said:


> I would not be surprised to see a demo of the UI showed in those videos on Engadget a month or two back.


Do you have a link to that?

NM, I found it.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/29/potential-new-tivo-user-interface-shown-on-video/


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

rv65 said:


> Tivo might also make a HD2 which would be a decontented version.


A what?


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> A what?


I had to look it up, basically decontented = less features:
http://www.mcwetboy.com/mcwetlog/2004/08/ipod_decontenting.php



rv65 said:


> Tivo might also make a HD2 which would be a decontented version.


The TiVoHD already replaced the more premium S3.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Maybe the original comment was about having something for users that did not want to pay monthly fees because I can't really see removing features for any other reason.

I expect at some point that Tivo would be able to offer a free (or highly discounted) service with advertisements as the subsidy.



gonzotek said:


> I had to look it up, basically decontented = less features:
> http://www.mcwetboy.com/mcwetlog/2004/08/ipod_decontenting.php
> 
> The TiVoHD already replaced the more premium S3.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

Anyone else going to CES 2009? I'm there Jan 8-12.


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## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

I have no idea what Tivo will show off, if anything. I do wonder for how many more years CES will keep going, though.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

darksurtur said:


> Isn't it too early to have functioning new DirecTiVos?


TiVo showed off two different hardware platforms at last years show specifically aimed at DSS providers. They hadn't stuck the new deal with DirecTV yet at the time, but if either platform is adaptable to DirecTV then we could see a working prototype sooner then you might think. Then again, as someone else pointed out, based on TiVo's history anything they show at CES is probably at least 9 months from being released to the public.*

Dan

* Fastest release from CES to consumers was the S3 units which was shown at CES 2006 (January) and released in September the same year.


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## modnar (Oct 15, 2000)

I would think TiVo would try to have some kind of prototype of a DirecTV HD TiVo - even if it is something that uses the guts of the previous box with a new form factor. It might encourage some DirecTV users unhappy with the DTV DVR to hang in there a bit...


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## Mesickstan (Jul 31, 2008)

XXL: 2 Tb storage and 4 tuners


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> * Fastest release from CES to consumers was the S3 units which was shown at CES 2006 (January) and released in September the same year.


Didn't TiVo show a prototype standalone HD unit at CES 2005? That's when I would start the clock, which means it was closer to 21 months than 9.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

pkscout said:


> Didn't TiVo show a prototype standalone HD unit at CES 2005? That's when I would start the clock, which means it was closer to 21 months than 9.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure there were SA HD units earlier, because I remember us chomping at the bit for the S3 and it was previewed in at least some form in CES 2005


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo showed off two different hardware platforms at last years show specifically aimed at DSS providers. They hadn't stuck the new deal with DirecTV yet at the time, but if either platform is adaptable to DirecTV then we could see a working prototype sooner then you might think. Then again, as someone else pointed out, based on TiVo's history anything they show at CES is probably at least 9 months from being released to the public.*
> 
> Dan
> 
> * Fastest release from CES to consumers was the S3 units which was shown at CES 2006 (January) and released in September the same year.


I agree that the new DirecTV/HDTiVo platform (whether it's a new box, or a software port/install onto current DirecTV DVR hardware) could come sooner than most might expect. The more I look at TiVo going forward, it's not the technical barriers that hold products back. Consumer DVR technology is 10+ years old, and advances have occurred in all technical aspects.

It's the business, contractual, partnership, and strategy stuff that hold products back. With the right partner, development moves quite efficiently. I think DirecTV could once again be such a partner.

I think it might be unfair to use the S3 development, and now the S4 tru-2way platforms as an expectation of when the new DirecTV product will land. DirecTV is a single entity, cable is a multi-headed monster. And given regional control in many cases, each cable entity can present obstacles for any reason they choose (often very self motivated). Just think cableCARD, and you can appreciate the uphill climb that TiVo has been enduring in their push of their current product set.

My thought is that TiVo has simply lacked good partners. Perhaps if/when the DISH litigation reaches some finality, the partner landscape will improve across the board.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

20TIL6 said:


> With the right partner, development moves quite efficiently. I think DirecTV could once again be such a partner.


yah, I had forgotten about the DirectTV HD unit. That could easily be hardware at CES. Hope we see some more on streaming stuff though.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

pkscout said:


> Didn't TiVo show a prototype standalone HD unit at CES 2005? That's when I would start the clock, which means it was closer to 21 months than 9.


They did announce the intent to release an HD cable card box in 2006 at the 2005 CES. They had a box under glass that looked nothing like the S3 in 2005 and an actual prototype in 2006.

The real surprise was the TiVo HD which was promised for 2007 in March 2007 and then delivered in August.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

nrc said:


> They did announce the intent to release an HD cable card box in 2006 at the 2005 CES. They had a box under glass that looked nothing like the S3 in 2005 and an actual prototype in 2006.
> 
> The real surprise was the TiVo HD which was promised for 2007 in March 2007 and then delivered in August.


You're right TiVo did show a CableCARD TiVo at CES 2005, I had totally forgot about that. So I guess the 18 month minimum development time holds true for all TiVo products. 

Although the official story for the new DirecTiVo said "second half of 2009" so I guess it's possible they could squeeze that down to 15 months. 

Dan


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

martinp13 said:


> Anyone else going to CES 2009? I'm there Jan 8-12.


Anyone going to CES please stop by the TiVo booth and ask them about their Series 4 Tru2Way and DirecTV plans and report back!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MegaZone does a good job of reporting on everything TiVo has going on at CES every year on his blog...

http://www.tivolovers.com

As for me... no CES this year. I've gone the last few years for work. Last year I even worked a both at a little side show called "Show Stoppers", which was kind of fun (and exhausting). But this year, with the economy down, we decided it wasn't worth the expense so we're skipping it.

Apparently we're not alone either, because even though the show is only a week away there are still "inexpensive" hotel rooms available. Last year I booked a room in the first week of December and had to upgrade to a jacuzzi suite because all the regular rooms were already sold out. Sign of the times I guess.

Dan


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> So I guess the 18 month minimum development time holds true for all TiVo products.


They did appear to haul the TiVoHD out pretty quick, and they managed to "get" it up to 1GB and buy a THX label in about 12 months.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

pkscout said:


> Didn't TiVo show a prototype standalone HD unit at CES 2005?


My understanding with that one, is they had no intentions of building any under the TiVo brand, but have it available for other CE manufacturers to have manufactured, like they did with the DVD combos. Obviously there were no takers.

If not that, it was a base which they would build an HD-DVR on, whose fruits were demoed in a nearly complete product the next year.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

I would be surprised if TiVo didn't show a Tru-2-Way type of box this year, but with TiVo's track record I suppose they could take a pass on CES this year.

I would really like to see a TiVo box with a faster processor, gigabit ethernet and an updated UI that takes better advantage of HD resolution.


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## NickIN (Dec 26, 2002)

Are they even there this year? Haven't seen even the first blip about them....


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

I'd like to see streaming since TW Cable has basically neutered TTG and MRV because of their insidious use of the cci bytes on everything but local, non-digital simulcast channels.

But I'm not counting on it (we'll probably get FIOS TV in our area before that happens in about 2 years).


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## Mindflux (Jan 16, 2008)

m_jonis said:


> I'd like to see streaming since TW Cable has basically neutered TTG and MRV because of their insidious use of the cci bytes on everything but local, non-digital simulcast channels.
> 
> But I'm not counting on it (we'll probably get FIOS TV in our area before that happens in about 2 years).


I have TWC here in Austin and I have plenty of stuff that I record that TTG works great for. It seems most stuff is unprotected rather than protected. Now MRV I have issues with...


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

NickIN said:


> Are they even there this year? Haven't seen even the first blip about them....


Yea, I'm starting to wonder too. Saw a great release from EchoStar. The VIP922 is their new DVR and it has Slingbox built in. They also announced plans to make a version of this for Tru2Way.

And TiVo? <crickets chirping>

I guess there's still tomorrow.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The show didn't officially start until a few hours ago. I'm sure we'll see more from the TiVo booth tonight after attendees get back to their hotel rooms and upload some pictures. (TiVo has never been big about first day press releases)

Dan


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## NickIN (Dec 26, 2002)

I'm hoping for a first glimpse of the new DirecTV box. And at least some info of an upcoming tru2way system would be awesome too.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Dave Zatz reports nothing new today.


> The day was also notable for the lack of information I was able to squeeze from TiVo&#8230; No new info on the renewed DirecTV collaboration, Comcast, or Cox rollouts. No new info on stand-alone hardware evolution. No update on the possibility of Amazon Video on Demand in HD.


http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-01/ces-2009-day-2-summary/

After the HD and XL showed up without much notice I'm wondering if TiVo has decided that there's not much point in hyping at CES if delivery isn't imminent.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> The show didn't officially start until a few hours ago. I'm sure we'll see more from the TiVo booth tonight after attendees get back to their hotel rooms and upload some pictures. (TiVo has never been big about first day press releases)


My bad, I thought it started yesterday. I will contain 50% of my disappointment with an option to display it later.


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## NickIN (Dec 26, 2002)

nrc said:


> After the HD and XL showed up without much notice I'm wondering if TiVo has decided that there's not much point in hyping at CES if delivery isn't imminent.


Well I can kinda see that. They can release products whenever they want. But TiVo isn't Apple, they can't just abandon their biggest trade show. They probably need to have something to show or say so that people know they still exist. It would be a big shame if Dish pulled the coup and was the only one showing a prototype tru2way DVR at CES this year. I say that as a shareholder as much as a fan.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

JeffKusnitz said:


> I'm looking forward to the announcement of a quad-tuner TivoHD box.


That would be great. The true two-way would also be a welcome addition if that ever happens... It's about the only thing they can come up with that would get my Series 3's away from me at this point.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

Dish is really kicking the snot out of TiVo at CES this year. Reportedly the only new thing TiVo is showing at their booth is the new search function. According to Dave Datz they would not comment on a Series 4 or DirecTV model nor about the Comcast and Cox rollouts or even HD content for Amazon. I'm not sure why TiVo even showed up there really. I don't think I've seen a single Tru2way announcement at CES either which does not bode well.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

pkscout said:


> My bad, I thought it started yesterday. I will contain 50% of my disappointment with an option to display it later.


You are right. They were open yesterday for select members of the press. There were a lot of keynote speeches and presentations that went on into the night.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

But like I said TiVo has never been one for early press releases on the day before the show. That's why I suggested holding out until we got some blog posts as to what is actually in the booth. As it turns out there was nothing in the booth that was very exciting, but we didn't know that at the time. 

Dan


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> But like I said TiVo has never been one for early press releases on the day before the show. That's why I suggested holding out until we got some blog posts as to what is actually in the booth. As it turns out there was nothing in the booth that was very exciting, but we didn't know that at the time.
> 
> Dan


The show has been going for two days now and Dave Zatz already reported from the TiVo booth:

"_The day was also notable for the lack of information I was able to squeeze from TiVo&#8230; No new info on the renewed DirecTV collaboration, Comcast, or Cox rollouts. No new info on stand-alone hardware evolution. No update on the possibility of Amazon Video on Demand in HD. Although, I did come away with a bit more perspective on the new search interface/experience and heavy weighting of customer feedback going forward_."


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Dish is really kicking the snot out of TiVo at CES this year. Reportedly the only new thing TiVo is showing at their booth is the new search function. According to Dave Datz they would not comment on a Series 4 or DirecTV model nor about the Comcast and Cox rollouts or even HD content for Amazon. I'm not sure why TiVo even showed up there really. I don't think I've seen a single Tru2way announcement at CES either which does not bode well.


yah, the whole CE industry is not pushing new products right now. No big surprise at all really. many consumers would be like - thats nice but I won't be spending my money on it. TiVo very likely sees no reason to rush to market on new models. The new DirecTV will all but announce itself when they have it ready and likely will not be all that excitingly new, just a good solid TiVo powered DVR that can record two HD shows at once or have 2 live TV buffers going.

I was hoping that more content partners for TiVo might pop up CES week when the press was paying attention. 
With people staying home and saving their money then content partners would fit that current behavior.

Oh well no dashed expectations or surprises for me as I really did not expect a lot from this show.


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yah, the whole CE industry is not pushing new products right now. No big surprise at all really. many consumers would be like - thats nice but I won't be spending my money on it. TiVo very likely sees no reason to rush to market on new models.


I guess I look at it from the opposite point of view. I'm being careful about how I spend my money right now, but if Tivo came out with a neat new model, I would very likely spring for it. But, lacking anything new, I'll just hang tight and wait to see what they (or somebody else) eventually comes out with that's worth getting excited about.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

NotVeryWitty said:


> I guess I look at it from the opposite point of view. I'm being careful about how I spend my money right now, but if Tivo came out with a neat new model, I would very likely spring for it. But, lacking anything new, I'll just hang tight and wait to see what they (or somebody else) eventually comes out with that's worth getting excited about.


for me I simply look at the original Series 3 experience. Obvious lessons learned by TiVo went into the TiVo HD, which I am happily using. I am not a "first one off the assembly line" kind of person. 
The more time TiVo can take with tru2way the better.

The TVs that can do IPTV and have a slideout keyboard on the remote are holding the most UMF for me right now, but I will wait for tru2way on those TVs so I can add in VOD/PPV options directly. I actually am just not all that concerned if my TiVo can do PPV/VOD stuff from cable company as I would not tend to record that content.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Dish is really kicking the snot out of TiVo at CES this year. Reportedly the only new thing TiVo is showing at their booth is the new search function. According to Dave Datz they would not comment on a Series 4 or DirecTV model nor about the Comcast and Cox rollouts or even HD content for Amazon. I'm not sure why TiVo even showed up there really. I don't think I've seen a single Tru2way announcement at CES either which does not bode well.


Dish without a doubt has TiVo in its gun sights. The acquisition of Sling Media has given them a much stronger platform to go head to head with TiVo on things like MRV and TTG.

The fact that we aren't hearing a peep out of TiVo at the biggest trade show of the year is very worrying as it means the chances of any real substantial hardware upgrades for 2009 are almost zero.

TiVo is going to continue to lose share until they start to ramp things up and possibly restructure their service charges.

A newer faster box that could effortlessly stream Netflix without hiccups, gigabit speed (near real time) transfers of HD material for MRV, a faster, HD resolution menu and some additional new features would go a long way towards keeping them on top in the home DVR game.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> A newer faster box that could effortlessly stream Netflix without hiccups, gigabit speed (near real time) transfers of HD material for MRV, a faster, HD resolution menu and some additional new features would go a long way towards keeping them on top in the home DVR game.


TiVo tried a premium DVR price tag of 800$. It did not fly well at all. Why would they think that has changed in this economy?

PS - it is not the box speed that is hurting Netflix streaming, nor is wired 100meg ethernet hurting real time HD copies. Companies are putting out products that can do all that - they just cost more than 200$ and do not have DVR built in doing real time recordings and other disk reads at the same time 
You are correct that a faster box is what is needed, in fact a faster broadcom chipset would go a long way, one just came out that can also do Flash in the chip(Think HuLu). Should TiVo try and pump that box out in 6 months or should they wait and give themselves a chance to work with a rock solid firmware of that chip.

And streaming is the other future for TiVo - built in Sling is awesome but if TiVo can add streaming a show off the TiVo to its MRV/TTG stable then license restrictions are mute. here is hoping the yare indeed working on that in the background.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo tried a premium DVR price tag of 800$. It did not fly well at all. Why would they think that has changed in this economy?
> 
> PS - it is not the box speed that is hurting Netflix streaming, nor is wired 100meg ethernet hurting real time HD copies. Companies are putting out products that can do all that - they just cost more than 200$ and do not have DVR built in doing real time recordings and other disk reads at the same time
> You are correct that a faster box is what is needed, in fact a faster broadcom chipset would go a long way, one just came out that can also do Flash in the chip(Think HuLu). Should TiVo try and pump that box out in 6 months or should they wait and give themselves a chance to work with a rock solid firmware of that chip.
> ...


Costs are much lower than you think for the hardware involved. Most of the cost is in software development, which they have to pay regardless of which hardware they are developing for.

There are small all-in-one motherboards with high speed, low heat processors, 1GB of integrated RAM, gigabit Ethernet, PCI-X capability, etc, that go in large lots for $40. Add another $50 for tuners, $50 for a hard drive, etc, and you have a box that TiVo can probably build for $199 and sell for $299.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo tried a premium DVR price tag of 800$. It did not fly well at all. Why would they think that has changed in this economy?
> 
> PS - it is not the box speed that is hurting Netflix streaming, nor is wired 100meg ethernet hurting real time HD copies. Companies are putting out products that can do all that - they just cost more than 200$ and do not have DVR built in doing real time recordings and other disk reads at the same time
> You are correct that a faster box is what is needed, in fact a faster broadcom chipset would go a long way, one just came out that can also do Flash in the chip(Think HuLu). Should TiVo try and pump that box out in 6 months or should they wait and give themselves a chance to work with a rock solid firmware of that chip.
> ...


Well, at least we agree on the fact that a faster TiVo with a better UI is what is needed for them to compete.

Unfortunately such a product does not appear to be on the horizon for this year.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> There are small all-in-one motherboards with high speed, low heat processors, 1GB of integrated RAM, gigabit Ethernet, PCI-X capability, etc, that go in large lots for $40. Add another $50 for tuners, $50 for a hard drive, etc, and you have a box that TiVo can probably build for $199 and sell for $299.


A TiVo is not just a PC though and needs a particular design to work as well as it does at being a dual tuner DVR with the best trick play out there - specifically the broadcom chips I mentioned. In fact that hardware design was 1 part of the Dish lawsuit and was only dropped as the higher court said the wrong doctrine was used to find that DISH hardware infringed and TiVo felt it better to go forward with software infringement only to get to a resolution faster.
TiVo is very cost conscious and I am pretty sure they did know low cost PC mother boards are out there, but they need faster broadcom chips and possibly more memory to help java apps, though I do not have enough data to know about the memory for sure.

still for 200$ I am quite happy with my TiVo HD and how well it performs, especially with the new Tivo Search beta.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> The TVs that can do IPTV and have a slideout keyboard on the remote are holding the most UMF for me right now,


"UMF"?


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

wmcbrine said:


> "UMF"?


*U*nseen *M*ystical* F*orce (one which compels a person to buy a particular product) 



> UMF: Unseen Magical Force or Unseen Mystical Force. The UMF is the collective consciousness at TiVoCommunity that compels you to make purchases of goods and services mentioned by other members. The phrase (as used on this forum) was coined by sallypnut (in this thread) and, as used on this site, carries a connotation that generally involves both covetousness and bank account depletion. Items with a high UMF "level" tend to be those of higher quality than similar items in the marketplace, or simply unique items that clearly solve a particular problem (sometimes a problem that one did not know they had until seeing the item).


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> Dish without a doubt has TiVo in its gun sights. The acquisition of Sling Media has given them a much stronger platform to go head to head with TiVo on things like MRV and TTG.
> 
> The fact that we aren't hearing a peep out of TiVo at the biggest trade show of the year is very worrying as it means the chances of any real substantial hardware upgrades for 2009 are almost zero.
> 
> ...


I was telling the wife about my disappointment with TiVo's CES showing this year, and she turns to me and says "I'm actually glad to hear that." Her take on it was: Why waste their resources on new hardware in the current economic climate? They should be working to lower costs and/or provide more services at the same cost. I hadn't considered that point of view, but from Dave's coverage it's clearly what TiVo was thinking with the displays of the online services like YouTube and Netflix and the TiVo Search beta.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

gonzotek said:


> I was telling the wife about my disappointment with TiVo's CES showing this year, and she turns to me and says "I'm actually glad to hear that." Her take on it was: Why waste their resources on new hardware in the current economic climate? They should be working to lower costs and/or provide more services at the same cost. I hadn't considered that point of view, but from Dave's coverage it's clearly what TiVo was thinking with the displays of the online services like YouTube and Netflix and the TiVo Search beta.


yep, and that is what i was trying to say earlier in this thread as well. TiVo is simply not going to sell a lot of hardware* right now except at very low cost. So they should take their time with hardware and stretch out the R&D budget on that and put some focus on software/content features that will be their best bang for the buck in selling off existing hardware.

*DiretcTIVo hardware is somehwat different since DirecTV might subsidize it some into the monthly bill they already collect

PS - My wife would have said "I'm actually glad to hear that... means you won't be talking about the new hardware and when to buy it"


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> PS - My wife would have said "I'm actually glad to hear that... means you won't be talking about the new hardware and when to buy it"


 I think mine was hinting at the same thing.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Regardless of how you slice it, in the consumer electronics world you do have to release new models at fairly regular intervals to stay competitive. Since we are close to 2 yrs from the release of the Series 3 platform I am surprised that we aren't at least getting preliminary info on Series 4 stuff, even if it's a year out.

Tivo features, UI, etc, that were cutting edge seven years ago are more of a novelty now, time to bring on the next gen!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> Regardless of how you slice it, in the consumer electronics world you do have to release new models at fairly regular intervals to stay competitive. Since we are close to 2 yrs from the release of the Series 3 platform I am surprised that we aren't at least getting preliminary info on Series 4 stuff, even if it's a year out.
> 
> Tivo features, UI, etc, that were cutting edge seven years ago are more of a novelty now, time to bring on the next gen!


Just like with cable cards- TiVo needs to deal with CableLabs on getting a tru2way spec and that is not controlled by TiVo. 
But why regardless of the fact TiVo will rush a new box out to an economy with DISMAL consumer sales it needs to simply to survive?


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

I don't think there is anything wrong with the TiVoHD that needs a refresh or update.

I think TiVo needs a next generation with major functional increases - including tru-2way - and the sooner that can be brought to market the better.

Look to the latest video chips being put out to see where functionality might go...transcoding, streaming, formats, etc.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

I think I'm going to reapply the 50&#37; of my disappointment. I suppose it's still possible for an announcement Saturday, but I doubt it. That they are being so closed lipped about the Tru2Way boxes and the already announced DirecTV partnership is disconcerting.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

I think Microsoft is right... release new products NOW or you won't even be here when the recession is over. Also, TV buying is one of the few markets to rise in a recession (save money over going out).

Well, from CES2009, I saw a very cool RF&IR all in one remote (plan on buying).. 3D Tv being commonplace is only a year away.. The dual full screen gamers on 1 Tv thingy was kinda cool... but overall I see disappointment.

Where are the kick butt PC media extenders, More Laptops with standard HDMI (doesn't anyone want TV connectivity in one cable?).. 

I dunno.. I'll keep looking.. but CES09 seems a disappointment as usual.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

From the pictures the 922 from dish looks amazing and is a big advance from their previous models but the trackpad style remote/interface looks like it might be a pain to use.

I think Tivo needs to keep improving the current series 3 and work on stability and adding in some UI features that are common on other DVRs.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> "UMF"?


Really?! How long have you been visiting this forum?


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## EVizzle (Feb 13, 2005)

Speed or UI don't even need a tweak, Tivo just has to come up with a successful model for selling their boxes...

I have no complaints with my original S3 box.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

steve614 said:


> Really?! How long have you been visiting this forum?


Five years, and I never saw that one before, that I can recall. Maybe it's a Happy Hour thing? I seldom go there.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

EVizzle said:


> Speed or UI don't even need a tweak, Tivo just has to come up with a successful model for selling their boxes...


That is really the only place they are struggling anymore. They've cleaned up old problems and moved back into a leadership position with things like Netflix (streaming)

Can anyone say they are "behind" on tru-2way? I don't think anything else is out there yet, right? Aren't they the leaders in even establishing that compromise?

(... not to mention the TA...)


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

I can officially say I am dissapointed. no talk about DTV new boxes and no talk about Tru2way box.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

BlackBetty said:


> I can officially say I am dissapointment.


You are? 



I'm disappointed with CES as well... as far as I could tell, there was nothing important announced. A year without advancement?


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## visionary (May 31, 2006)

Correct. America has failed. Look to Asia for all advances now. Thats what happens when you shut down all the production of steel and manufacturing, it goes over there and all the advances with it.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I am definitely disappointed with no new info on the new Directv box. I was hoping for something no matter how small the info.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

berkshires said:


> That is really the only place they are struggling anymore. They've cleaned up old problems and moved back into a leadership position with things like Netflix (streaming)
> 
> Can anyone say they are "behind" on tru-2way? I don't think anything else is out there yet, right? Aren't they the leaders in even establishing that compromise?
> 
> (... not to mention the TA...)


I will not use the word "behind" for TiVo because i don't know BUT Panasonic does have tru2way HDTVs in some markets (Chicago is one that i know of). They are not making a big deal about it yet for some reason, so I would guess it not ready for prime time yet with all the cable systems out there that can't use tru2way yet.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lessd said:


> I will not use the word "behind" for TiVo because i don't know BUT Panasonic does have tru2way HDTVs in some markets (Chicago is one that i know of). They are not making a big deal about it yet for some reason, so I would guess it not ready for prime time yet with all the cable systems out there that can't use tru2way yet.


Panasonic worked with Comcast on making something that could be tested - in *one* market in chicago. It was not the start of a rollout of products or tru2way but a test.
No one is talking so we do not know where TiVo is on the timeline but lack of talk does not = behind by any means.

Microsoft can afford to put out a product and not make any money on it - see Vista or Xbox for reference - they have the cash to absorb the losses adn then make tons of money on Windows 7 or Xbox 360. Good for them and a sound plan to keep putting out something even if it is not ready or in the final form. TiVo does not have that kind of ability.

Heck it took many years to put out cable card DVRs


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Panasonic worked with Comcast on making something that could be tested - in *one* market in chicago. It was not the start of a rollout of products or tru2way but a test.
> No one is talking so we do not know where TiVo is on the timeline but lack of talk does not = behind by any means.
> 
> Microsoft can afford to put out a product and not make any money on it - see Vista or Xbox for reference - they have the cash to absorb the losses adn then make tons of money on Windows 7 or Xbox 360. Good for them and a sound plan to keep putting out something even if it is not ready or in the final form. TiVo does not have that kind of ability.
> ...


It's (the "test" Panasonic HDTV) in *Denver CO *also but we won't quibble about small things.
When TiVo introduced the first Series 3 my cable co (Comcast) had just gotten the cable cards about 2 months before, so TiVo did not hold things up much in the 3rd party HD DVR in my area (Hartford CT)


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## NickIN (Dec 26, 2002)

TiVo really hasn't announced a release date for the tru2way box, so I'm not all that bothered by no new info there. However, they have given a release date of 2nd half of this year on the new DirecTV box. So I'm honestly shocked if there isn't a working prototype. If they honestly don't have one to show off then I have some serious doubts that it'll be out anywhere close to on time. Unless there is some agreement between them that DirecTV doesn't want it made public until some time later. That's possible.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

NickIN said:


> TiVo really hasn't announced a release date for the tru2way box, so I'm not all that bothered by no new info there. However, they have given a release date of 2nd half of this year on the new DirecTV box. So I'm honestly shocked if there isn't a working prototype. If they honestly don't have one to show off then I have some serious doubts that it'll be out anywhere close to on time. Unless there is some agreement between them that DirecTV doesn't want it made public until some time later. That's possible.


Could it be that TiVo will be porting software to the existing HR21 box (like they did with Comcast?) Then no new hardware need to be introduced, the existing box is powerfull enough to handle TiVo software (unlike cable boxes) and all the security/access card features are already implemented. All TiVo needs to do is to bring some ads and suggestions - everything else works perfectly fine already.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Which really meshes well with the idea that perhaps TiVo is going to focus most of its attention on software, and perhaps focus less on the hardware business.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Just like with cable cards- TiVo needs to deal with CableLabs on getting a tru2way spec and that is not controlled by TiVo.


Quite apart from the totally unacceptable aspects of tru2way, it offers nothing at this point in which I am even remotely interested. Looking at it from a perspective outside my own considerations, I can - sort of - see why people are interested in PPV, but since no tru2way box is going to allow anyone to record the IPPV event, why not just get an STB to handle IPPV? Yes, I know it's an additional box, and I sympathize with the desire not to have yet another box (and a bunch of associated cables) lying around, but that's better than giving over my rights to determine which software and which features are hosted on equipment I own (including spyware, BTW). VOD is really a weak topic. The fact ones owns a TiVo makes VOD almost 100% moot. Getting back to my personal viewpoint, even if I had a box with IPPV and VOD capabilties, I would never use them. I didn't, even when I worked for the cable company, and could get every IPPV event for $0.99 or less (many of them free), and VOD was free. Given I never had any interest to use them when they were free or nearly free, I certainly am not looking to spend a ton of money just to get them now that they are truly unappealing.

Now if TiVo comes out with a non-tru2way unit (or at least one on which tru2way capability can be completely disabled) with a gigabit ethernet interface and native NAS / SMB / NFS capability, I might be willing to spend a nickel. Good luck on NAS / SMB / NFS with CableLabs calling the shots on CableCard certifications.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

jmpage2 said:


> I would really like to see a TiVo box with a faster processor, gigabit ethernet


Well, a gigabit ethernet interface pretty much demands a somewhat faster processor, since the current CPU is unable to even manage 100 Mbps with both tuners active. I'm with you on the higher speed networking, however. MRV is not so bad, especially given its use and capabilities, but TTG is rather slow, and what's worse is TTCB is often too slow to keep up real-time with high bit-rate HD programming, even with both tuners inactive. The ability to stream and transfer high bit-rate HD would be an irresistible feature.



jmpage2 said:


> and an updated UI that takes better advantage of HD resolution.


'Major snooze. I never use the UI, to speak of. I let the TiVo do the recording. I just press <Play>. I also listen to music, but that UI is provided by Galleon. The rest I do from my PC or the video server, and of course TiVo doesn't provide those UIs, either.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

samo said:


> Could it be that TiVo will be porting software to the existing HR21 box (like they did with Comcast?) Then no new hardware need to be introduced, the existing box is powerfull enough to handle TiVo software (unlike cable boxes) and all the security/access card features are already implemented. All TiVo needs to do is to bring some ads and suggestions - everything else works perfectly fine already.


It's certainly possible. I suspect DirecTV will have a very large say on the hardware platform, perhaps even demanding something like your suggestion. Their business philosophy of the past few years would suggest at the very least they will probably be manufacturing the hardware.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Panasonic worked with Comcast on making something that could be tested - in *one* market in chicago.





lessd said:


> It's (the "test" Panasonic HDTV) in *Denver CO *also but we won't quibble about small things.


Isn't Chicago a suburb of Denver?

Hey, remember, I live in Texas. Denver and Chicago are only 1000 miles apart. Down here that's what we call, "A next door neighbor".


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

I think having tru-2way will be important to the general market because people like to buy things that have options. (just like it inhibits TiVo sales that they are not compatible with satellite since cable subscribers wonder if they get locked out of the option to move to satellite...) My impression of the T2W arrangement is that you would not see the non-TiVo part unless you access non-TiVo stuff, so it would be like its not there for people who feel like lrhorer.

With CableCARD devices, TiVo was certainly behind, what with TV's available a couple years before and Sony having a CC DVR also. Meanwhile Cable Co. was cleaning up HD capable DVR business with their own boxes. But so far, no indication TiVo is significantly ahead or behind T2W. I don't think you become defined as behind (the competition) unless its more than a few months or you miss a major date like the Holiday Season...

As far as thinking about new features ... how about streaming _from _the TiVo to either other TiVo's, or more generally other devices which might be low cost DMRs w/o subscription made by TiVo and/or other companies? How about getting around the copy flag MRV problems with streaming (or some other way to transfer without violating the one copy rule... all of which might also involve some negotiation with CableLabs and the FCC to redefine the rules.)


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## NickIN (Dec 26, 2002)

samo said:


> Could it be that TiVo will be porting software to the existing HR21 box (like they did with Comcast?) Then no new hardware need to be introduced, the existing box is powerfull enough to handle TiVo software (unlike cable boxes) and all the security/access card features are already implemented. All TiVo needs to do is to bring some ads and suggestions - everything else works perfectly fine already.


It's possible this will be what happens. I hope if it is that I at least get an option to upgrade from my HR-20. I hate how hot it runs and that stupid blue circle on the front. I know I can turn it off but it always ends up back on somehow. When DirecTV had TiVo originally they were seperate boxes.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

samo said:


> Could it be that TiVo will be porting software to the existing HR21 box (like they did with Comcast?)


Haven't we seen enough of TiVo software running on hardware not designed at least with significant input from TiVo? It might happen and might work, but I'd rather a ground up approach.

How about a TiVo with bluray unit streaming to other units around the house?


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> 'Major snooze. I never use the UI, to speak of. I let the TiVo do the recording. I just press <Play>. I also listen to music, but that UI is provided by Galleon. The rest I do from my PC or the video server, and of course TiVo doesn't provide those UIs, either.


I think you must be the only one that wants a TiVo Shuffle. Just press a button and it will play... something. The UI should at least take advantage of HDTV resolution to display more information per line. Imagine buying a widescreen PC monitor and the computer only using the center portion of it.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

samo said:


> Could it be that TiVo will be porting software to the existing HR21 box (like they did with Comcast?) Then no new hardware need to be introduced, the existing box is powerfull enough to handle TiVo software (unlike cable boxes) and all the security/access card features are already implemented. All TiVo needs to do is to bring some ads and suggestions - everything else works perfectly fine already.


Rogers was speaking at a hidden Gems program a while back and said that the software would run on DirecTV hardware but would not be a downlaod like the Comcast TiVo is. The TiVo software will run directly on the hardware and not via a third party stack. So the HR21 certainly could be the platform, but nothing has been said one way or the other by either TiVo or DirecTV to my knowledge.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> Now if TiVo comes out with a non-tru2way unit (or at least one on which tru2way capability can be completely disabled) with a gigabit ethernet interface and native NAS / SMB / NFS capability, I might be willing to spend a nickel. Good luck on NAS / SMB / NFS with CableLabs calling the shots on CableCard certifications.


Based on those FCC documents about fining cable companies for getting ahead of themselves on SDV, it appears that the license for Tru2way forbids a tru2way box from having any external network connections. Only the internal cable modem connection back to the head-end is allowed. If true this would certainly put the kaibosh on the good features of a Tru2way box. In that case I hope TiVo is getting cablelabs to revise the license.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

CuriousMark said:


> Based on those FCC documents about fining cable companies for getting ahead of themselves on SDV, it appears that the license for Tru2way forbids a tru2way box from having any external network connections. Only the internal cable modem connection back to the head-end is allowed. If true this would certainly put the kaibosh on the good features of a Tru2way box. In that case I hope TiVo is getting cablelabs to revise the license.


That was also a requirement for Cable cards when it came out. The fact that TiVo honors the (do not)copy bits and has decent encryption on the DVR itself broken only by modding the hardware then it was allowed to keep the connection. Tru2way will fall into the same exemption for TiVo pretty easily.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Quite apart from the totally unacceptable aspects of tru2way, it offers nothing at this point in which I am even remotely interested. Looking at it from a perspective outside my own considerations, I can - sort of - see why people are interested in PPV, but since no tru2way box is going to allow anyone to record the IPPV event, why not just get an STB to handle IPPV? Yes, I know it's an additional box, and I sympathize with the desire not to have yet another box (and a bunch of associated cables) lying around, but that's better than giving over my rights to determine which software and which features are hosted on equipment I own (including spyware, BTW). VOD is really a weak topic. The fact ones owns a TiVo makes VOD almost 100% moot. Getting back to my personal viewpoint, even if I had a box with IPPV and VOD capabilties, I would never use them. I didn't, even when I worked for the cable company, and could get every IPPV event for $0.99 or less (many of them free), and VOD was free. Given I never had any interest to use them when they were free or nearly free, I certainly am not looking to spend a ton of money just to get them now that they are truly unappealing.
> 
> Now if TiVo comes out with a non-tru2way unit (or at least one on which tru2way capability can be completely disabled) with a gigabit ethernet interface and native NAS / SMB / NFS capability, I might be willing to spend a nickel. Good luck on NAS / SMB / NFS with CableLabs calling the shots on CableCard certifications.


+1. I have zero interest in PPV & VOD. Netflix (mailing + streaming) more than fills that void and at a much lower cost with option of much better quality video (Blu Ray).
Even if there is an upgraded processor + ethernet in the hardware the price would have to come down enough for 2 units to be affordable since MRV to/from an S3 would still be slow if I only had 1 new unit.

The fact that tru2way uses Java and has cable company software uploaded to it (even though it may not actually be fully used in Tivo's version) really puts me off.

Thus I too see very little reason to spring for new Tivo hardware at this point in time.

Perhaps one thing that would be enticing to me is to make it a true Home Media box that can you can *stream* (not copy) anything to natively and has 1080p/60 output capabilities. (The ultimate solution would be if I could stream m2ts Blu Ray files to it but I sincerely doubt Tivo hardware will ever do that).


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Wow.. I can't believe they didn't have at least a mockup of a tru2way dvr....


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Wow.. I can't believe they didn't have at least a mockup of a tru2way dvr....


+1

which means to me that TiVo is probably at a minimum 2 years away from offering such a device.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

CuriousMark said:


> Rogers was speaking at a hidden Gems program a while back and said that the software would run on DirecTV hardware but would not be a downlaod like the Comcast TiVo is. The TiVo software will run directly on the hardware and not via a third party stack. So the HR21 certainly could be the platform, but nothing has been said one way or the other by either TiVo or DirecTV to my knowledge.


That is much more likely to work well than the Motorola/SA arrangements with Cable Co.

1080p60*&24* - 120 probably not necessary if it even exists.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

BlackBetty said:


> +1
> 
> which means to me that TiVo is probably at a minimum 2 years away from offering such a device.


TiVo was demoing a cablecard TiVo almost three years from the Series 3 release data...


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

BlackBetty said:


> +1
> 
> which means to me that TiVo is probably at a minimum 2 years away from offering such a device.


Or they don't want to kill sales of their existing product.

I think it would be worth a short delay to use this next-generation Broadcom SOC, don't you?


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## erwos (Jun 25, 2008)

bkdtv said:


> Or they don't want to kill sales of their existing product.
> 
> I think it would be worth a short delay to use this next-generation Broadcom SOC, don't you?


Good 1080p upscaling plus a GUI that actually took advantage of that resolution would be a pretty compelling reason to upgrade, I agree. If the chip helped software responsiveness, that'd be a win, too.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

berkshires said:


> 1080p60*&24* - 120 probably not necessary if it even exists.


120 doesn't exist as a source rate, AFAIK, but it's the least common multiple of 60 and 24 -- so, frame doubling for 60 fps sources, frame quintupling for 24 fps sources, and none of the weird tricks needed to convert 24 fps to 30 or 60. I believe that's the point of it.


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## erwos (Jun 25, 2008)

wmcbrine said:


> 120 doesn't exist as a source rate, AFAIK, but it's the least common multiple of 60 and 24 -- so, frame doubling for 60 fps sources, frame quintupling for 24 fps sources, and none of the weird tricks needed to convert 24 fps to 30 or 60. I believe that's the point of it.


Well, something to consider here is that the TiVo isn't going to have any 24hz sources running into it, at least not from cable or OTA sources - your options there are essentially 480i30, 720p60, and 1080i60. Ergo, 1080p60 output would seem to be all that's needed, not 1080p24.

I guess it would be handy if it supported natively outputting 1080p24 files from your computer, though. Or maybe if they had a combo TiVo/BR-D player/recorder unit.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

erwos said:


> Well, something to consider here is that the TiVo isn't going to have any 24hz sources running into it, at least not from cable or OTA sources - your options there are essentially 480i30, 720p60, and 1080i60. Ergo, 1080p60 output would seem to be all that's needed, not 1080p24.
> 
> I guess it would be handy if it supported natively outputting 1080p24 files from your computer, though. Or maybe if they had a combo TiVo/BR-D player/recorder unit.


Netflix, Amazon, CinemaNow, Jaman, and other download sources could end up being 24fps source (I *think* I remember someone working for Amazon describing some downloads as being 24fps source material, at the least. I can't find a quote now, however, and can't recall if they were doing a 3:2 pulldown or what). And the broadband video services are now a major part of the TiVo strategy.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

erwos said:


> Well, something to consider here is that the TiVo isn't going to have any 24hz sources running into it, at least not from cable or OTA sources - your options there are essentially 480i30, 720p60, and 1080i60. Ergo, 1080p60 output would seem to be all that's needed, not 1080p24.


Can you elaborate on that? Where is it dictated that you can't send 480p24 OTA?

480p24 and 720p24 for example are definitely listed as ATSC supported formats (checked Wikipedia for a quick summary).


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

TiVo at CES-


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## erwos (Jun 25, 2008)

mattack said:


> Can you elaborate on that? Where is it dictated that you can't send 480p24 OTA?
> 
> 480p24 and 720p24 for example are definitely listed as ATSC supported formats (checked Wikipedia for a quick summary).


No one's sending them out now, AFAIK, and no one's likely to start at this stage of the game. There are certain advantages to sending in 60hz, for one thing, and for another, the true benefits of 24hz are only going to be reaped in very specific situations.

I'm not saying that 24hz output support in a Series 4 would be a bad thing - as others have mentioned (and I originally implied), there could be non-cable / non-ATSC sources that use it. I'm just saying that I don't think 720p24 or 1080p24 output is a make or break feature for a hypothetical Series 4. I _do_ think that lacking good 1080p60 upscaling would be a massive mistake - given the poor quality of most TV scalers, this could give a real image quality boost and give the TiVo another edge in the market.

Another thing I'd _really_ like to see in Series 4 is some sort of Sling-esque streaming support for remote (out of LAN) viewing. Given the bad blood between Dish (who own Sling) and TiVo, I'm guessing it might not be Sling, but maybe they could license some technology from HAVA? *shrugs*

Just speculation, but speculating is fun...


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