# End of PC <--> TiVo transfer is End of TiVo for me



## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

This has mentioned as an aside in several other threads of various other primary topics, but I wanted a direct adressing of the topic.

If TiVo ever completely kills off the ability to transfer between PC and Tivo, as I get the feeling they will from what I've read in these many other threads, it'll be the end of my relationship with TiVo. And this includes the ability to tranfer from PC back to TiVo.

I will ride it out as long as I can until they force the Hydra update on me, but at that point I'm done.

I'm still PO'ed that they killed push, after having previously killed the ability to directly download video podcasts, and now pull from PC to TiVo even gone on Hydra (I'm not holding my breath thinking they'll add it back). I guess the ability to transfer from TiVo to PC is still there, but I more heavily use the transfer from PC to TiVo.

Started with a Series 2, upgraded to a Tivo HD, and finally a Roamio Plus a few years ago. That ability to transfer between the PC and TiVo is THE reason I bought TiVos instead of just going with a cable company DVR.

I am not a streamer. I don't subscribe to Netflix, Hulu or anything else. (I have Prime for the shipping and very rarely will watch something from there.)

As I'm guessing many who use the TiVo --> PC transfer do, I use that to archive shows in the way I used to use VHS tape before that to record and archive entire series. Not a ton of shows, but a few shows here and there. And now with retro-TV channels I'm going back and archving a handful of old 60's, 70's, and 80's TV shows.

For the PC --> TiVo transfer, I still watch several video podcasts, as well as other videos. When they killed the direct download of podcasts, I set up an RSS reader and pyTiVo push config. I still have the RSS reader downloads but of course now have to go the TiVo and "pull" the podcasts.

Plex (or streaming in general) is NOT an alternative. First, it's extremely convenient to just have the things I want to watch in my Now Playing list and just play them. My other main gripe with the streaming aspect is the transport controls for FF/REW. I find that I FF/REW a lot for one reason or another. There is no such thing as fine grained FF or REW on streaming. I always, ineveitably over or undershoot the spot I want, and waste tons of time finding the right spot, compared to if I could FF/REW with the native TiVo viewing experience. (I even hate the FF/REW on my Blu-ray player compared to my TiVo. Probably every DVD/Blu-ray I watch, at least once I try to hit the 8 second replay to see something again, which of course doesn't exist on my Blu-ray player.)

Do I like the TiVo interface better than most provider DVR's? Sure, but not enough to explicitly pay for TiVo at retail. Provider DVR boxes have gotten much better in recent years. Heck, many cable providers now even provide TiVo as their DVR (i.e., again, why would I bother to pay for one directly by retail without the PC <--> TiVo transfer capability?)


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

Well first, I hope you got Lifetime on those boxes, so you already got your money's worth (maybe...LOL).

I certain hope you did not go to TE4 from your post! There are several things I WISH TE4 has that we waited YEARS for, and now it's in That Monstrosity!!!

I transfer both ways too, Plus that Tivo Online Transfer...WHY WHY WHY???

Maybe someday Comcast will buffer all their tuners (Ha, they are not smart enough), BUT THE X1 WILL STILL SUCK (I know, my friend has it!).

FINALLY, TIVO, INC (or _*maybe*_ it was Comcast) COULD OBVIOUSLY GIVE A CRAP...*BUT* THEY SAID THEY WOULD NOT FORCE TE4 ON US, and really there would be no reason for them to do that (I hope).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HDHomeRun makes their own DVR software. It's not great but it records in standard TS format, so no issues opening in VideoReDo or anything else. If TiVo dumps TiVo->PC transfers I'm hooking up my HDHomeRun and installing their DVR.


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## rpj22 (Mar 27, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> HDHomeRun makes their own DVR software. It's not great but it records in standard TS format, so no issues opening in VideoReDo or anything else. If TiVo dumps TiVo->PC transfers I'm hooking up my HDHomeRun and installing their DVR.


I have a vague recollection that someone (Snapstream, maybe?) made some pretty nice DVR software that worked with a variety of tuners, including HDHomeRun. I only used it with a built in tuner card, but I think it did a lot more. With the death of WMC it looks like new replacements are popping up in the DVR software area. Are any of them candidates for use with HDHomeRun?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Did I imagine this or did someone (TiVo_Ted?) post something on this forum awhile back about possible further integration between TiVo and Plex? I know the OP isn't interested in Plex but if what I remember is real then it could be indicative that TiVo sees Plex as the best way forward for archiving recordings and then later accessing them for playback on TiVo units (as opposed to a native TiVo-only solution for transferring recordings to PCs).


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

NashGuy said:


> Did I imagine this or did someone (TiVo_Ted?) post something on this forum awhile back about possible further integration between TiVo and Plex?


Yep, Shoop mentioned this in the Facebook group.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> HDHomeRun makes their own DVR software. It's not great but it records in standard TS format, so no issues opening in VideoReDo or anything else. If TiVo dumps TiVo->PC transfers I'm hooking up my HDHomeRun and installing their DVR.


I bought an HDHomeRun recently, and tried it with their non-DVR software, which was terrible -- everything was out of sync. (This was on a 2015 MacBook.) But then I tried it with VLC on the same computer, and the streaming was perfect. Not the best UI, but the point is, it's all open. It will speak to, I think, any DLNA client.

But that's an OTA unit. They don't make the CableCard ones anymore, AFAIK.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

wmcbrine said:


> I bought an HDHomeRun recently, and tried it with their non-DVR software, which was terrible -- everything was out of sync. (This was on a 2015 MacBook.) But then I tried it with VLC on the same computer, and the streaming was perfect. Not the best UI, but the point is, it's all open. It will speak to, I think, any DLNA client.


Yeah, it's DLNA. I have one too and was amused to discover awhile back that I could use my Panasonic Blu-ray player to watch live channel streams from my HDHomeRun OTA tuner!



wmcbrine said:


> But that's an OTA unit. They don't make the CableCard ones anymore, AFAIK.


Well, they're supposedly going to roll out a new 6-tuner CableCARD unit called the Prime 6 this year.

HDHomeRun PRIME 6 - SiliconDust


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Well, they're supposedly going to roll out a new 6-tuner CableCARD unit called the Prime 6 this year.
> 
> HDHomeRun PRIME 6 - SiliconDust


Oh man, I got a good laugh out of that. They been supposedly been going to roll out the 6-tuner for at least 5 years. Just buy a second 3-tuner.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmcbrine said:


> I bought an HDHomeRun recently, and tried it with their non-DVR software, which was terrible -- everything was out of sync. (This was on a 2015 MacBook.) But then I tried it with VLC on the same computer, and the streaming was perfect. Not the best UI, but the point is, it's all open. It will speak to, I think, any DLNA client.
> 
> But that's an OTA unit. They don't make the CableCard ones anymore, AFAIK.


I still have a CableCARD one and from what I understand their DVR software works with any channel that's not protected.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mdavej said:


> Oh man, I got a good laugh out of that. They been supposedly been going to roll out the 6-tuner for at least 5 years. Just buy a second 3-tuner.


They don't offer the 3-tuner Prime any more. So at this point, they have no CableCARD tuners on the market. Which might make it more likely that the Prime 6 finally gets released now. (OTOH, they may ultimately decide that the market for CableCARD products is fading away so quickly that there's no point to compete there any more.)


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I still have a CableCARD one and from what I understand their DVR software works with any channel that's not protected.


Unfortunately, for Spectrum, legacy TWC systems at least, all channels other than local broadcast stations are copy protected.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Has there been an announcement somewhere that Tivo is going to end the ability to transfer from PC to legacy boxes (ie, Roamio)?


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

ADG said:


> Has there been an announcement somewhere that Tivo is going to end the ability to transfer from PC to legacy boxes (ie, Roamio)?


Last I knew, the official answer was taking it away was unintentional, but restoring it is not currently intended either. TE4 is also not currently intended to be a forced install. Read whatever you like into this, especially when such care was put into the word currently.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Okay, so it's only an issue with Hydra. I knew that and that's the primary reason I am staying with the "old" interface. Thanks very much.


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

samccfl99 said:


> Well first, I hope you got Lifetime on those boxes, so you already got your money's worth (maybe...LOL).
> 
> I certain hope you did not go to TE4 from your post! There are several things I WISH TE4 has that we waited YEARS for, and now it's in That Monstrosity!!!
> 
> ...


Yep, all lifetime. (TiVo HD got the $99 lifetime transfer from the S2, then some sort of discount on Lifetime for the Roamio upgrading to it from a 2nd TiVo HD I had that had monthly MSD subscription.) No, for this exact reason I have not upgraded to TE4. I read other threads on it extensively yesterday before starting this thread. Maybe they won't force TE4 on us, but they might drop support for the legacy interface entirely at some point making our units useless.

IF TiVo ever does add PC --> TiVo transfer to Hydra, then I'll be interested to look at Hydra, but not until then, and I'm not holding my breath. Even then though, since they killed off Push, I'm already pretty set on never buying another TiVo product going forward. I'll wait 'til mine becomes useless and then switch to a cable company DVR, which very well might end up being a TiVo anyway.



NashGuy said:


> Did I imagine this or did someone (TiVo_Ted?) post something on this forum awhile back about possible further integration between TiVo and Plex? I know the OP isn't interested in Plex but if what I remember is real then it could be indicative that TiVo sees Plex as the best way forward for archiving recordings and then later accessing them for playback on TiVo units (as opposed to a native TiVo-only solution for transferring recordings to PCs).


My primary gripe is the FF/REW not being precise (or as precise compared to a recording on the TiVo itself). But it's also kind of a pain to have to go into a different interface to find what I want to watch. If they get better integration with Plex and can make FF/REW (including the 30 skip and 8 second replay) work like a normal TiVo recording, then MAYBE Plex becomes a viable alternative for me.

Oh, on a separate but related note, one of the main reasons I upgraded to the Roamio from the older TiVo HD (besides extra tuners) was for out of home streaming. I have an old SlingBox I had used with the older TiVo HD and I thought it'd be great to be able to stream directly from the TiVo. But the streaming barely works. It hangs up and I have to restart it several times while watching a recording, and sometimes it flips out completely and I have to rerun the streaming setup at home. I've done all kinds of things with my home network to try to make this more stable and nothing seems to helps. So this is another reason I'm not thrilled with TiVo these days.


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## jhhyde (Dec 31, 2001)

quote: "the official answer was taking it away was unintentional". hardee, har, har. right.

let's see, push taken away (must have been unintentional) , ability to play music taken away (only works on Bolt, no longer works on my Roamio or my Premiere, must have been another unintentional). this is a campaign to remove anything that the cable companies don't want. Tivo, could have been the best media box ever, but they became too concerned with premium fees for guide data.

I agree with OP, once the PC to/from Tivo is gone, I will be too.

Original customer from 2001, have never not had a TiVo since buying my first one, a Series 1, have multiple units still in use.

Series 1
Series 2 (multiple)
Series 3 (multiple)
Premiere
Roamio (multiple)
Bolt


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Same reason I never 'upgraded' to TE4 - I like the Tivo playback experience for PC transfers, way better than Plex. And I can control quality details where you're limited to crappy 720p with Plex. Plus it's dog-slow on a Roamio anyway.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Yeah, Plex was pretty awful on my Roamio. Wonder how it runs on a Bolt? Also, is it restricted to just 720p on the Bolt? Plex can work great on certain devices. It runs very smoothly on my Apple TV 4K and has no problem playing back 4K videos.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Zaphod said:


> My primary gripe is the FF/REW not being precise (or as precise compared to a recording on the TiVo itself). But it's also kind of a pain to have to go into a different interface to find what I want to watch. If they get better integration with Plex and can make FF/REW (including the 30 skip and 8 second replay) work like a normal TiVo recording, then MAYBE Plex becomes a viable alternative for me.


That makes sense. On the Apple TV, the Plex app (like most apps) chooses to use the standard Apple playback controls and UI. So if Plex wanted to use the standard TiVo playback controls and UI in their TiVo app (and TiVo made it easy enough for them), maybe it could happen. The biggest problem, I'd say, is that Plex develops and supports apps for so many different platforms and I would guess that TiVo is one of their lesser-used ones. So I don't know if they'd devote those additional development resources to it.



Zaphod said:


> Oh, on a separate but related note, one of the main reasons I upgraded to the Roamio from the older TiVo HD (besides extra tuners) was for out of home streaming. I have an old SlingBox I had used with the older TiVo HD and I thought it'd be great to be able to stream directly from the TiVo. But the streaming barely works. It hangs up and I have to restart it several times while watching a recording, and sometimes it flips out completely and I have to rerun the streaming setup at home. I've done all kinds of things with my home network to try to make this more stable and nothing seems to helps. So this is another reason I'm not thrilled with TiVo these days.


This is why pay TV providers are moving toward cloud DVR (and VOD). Streaming a DVR recording over the internet is always going to be easier / work better when the recording is on the TV provider's (or Amazon Web Services') enterprise server with a massive bandwidth connection to the internet as opposed to sitting on your home DVR.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

*First *- I would ask what your alternative is? What competing product are you considering that allows PC -> DVR and DVR -> PC transfers.

*Second*, limitations on TiVo -> PC transfers hasn't been part of the conversation, so I am not sure why the FUD associated with that. It is key to TiVo's current strategy.

*Third*, TiVo is all in with Plex and is actually increasing their integration with the service. When I use KMTTG to download content from my TiVo, it automatically gets picked up by Plex. I can view the content remotely and share that content with friends and family. All things I cannot do using the old PC to TiVo transfer tools. I have auto transfer setup for several series and within 10 minutes of the end of the show, the episode is available in my Plex library and my daughter is watching it at college. Try that with the old PC to TiVo tools!

Plex is the solution of choice for PC to TiVo content. If you are not willing to adopt, then again, I take you back to my first question. What DVR are you considering that natively allows the PC to DVR transfers


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

bradleys said:


> *First *- I would ask what your alternative is? What competing product are you considering that allows PC -> DVR and DVR -> PC transfers.
> 
> *Second*, limitations on TiVo -> PC transfers hasn't been part of the conversation, so I am not sure why the FUD associated with that. It is key to TiVo's current strategy.
> 
> ...


I'm not considering any other products for PC <--> DVR transfer functionality. My point is that I bought TiVo specifically for that capability. Once TiVo takes that capability away, there is no other reason for me to own a TiVo over any other competing DVR product. I would just accept whatever the cable company gives me and give up PC <--> DVR transfer capability. (Although if there WERE another product available that allows that functionality, then I would certainly consider it.)

Regarding Plex, as I mentioned, I'm not interested in streaming in general. I'm interested in the convenience of the experience watching a recording on my TiVo at home. The FF/REW experience, and lack of 30 sec skip and 8 sec reply, when playing through Plex is an inferior experience compared to playing a recorded program directly from the TiVo itself. These may seem like minor issues to many, but I find I use these functions a LOT while watching programs and I'm not happy with the Plex experience (or any streaming experience for that matter when it comes to the FF/REW capability) compared to the native TiVo FF/REW/30 sec skip/8 sec replay experience.

As I mentioned in my other post earlier today, if indeed TiVo improves the Plex experience to make it more like a native TiVo recording experience, then I will give Plex another try.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Zaphod said:


> As I mentioned in my other post earlier today, if indeed TiVo improves the Plex experience to make it more like a native TiVo recording experience, then I will give Plex another try.


TiVo isn't going to do anything with Plex - they are working with the Plex developers to integrate in more the way they integrate Netfix, et al, but nothing more.

Yeah, trick play is much better when you are direct play versus streaming off of Netfix or Plex or any other service - but this is the way the market is moving. I have been around for a very long time, and for years the ask was about portability, sharing, mobile, etc. And Plex does this in spades better than the native TiVo ever did or ever will. Plex also manages your PC content far better as well - no more creating folders and moving content around and then hoping you can find it later! Nothing TiVo or PyTiVo ever did was a better experience than plex - with the exception of trick play and I was a huge user of PyTivo!

I get what you want, but the river is flowing in the opposite direction, so if you are unwilling to work with environments as they are moving, I would suggest checking out the more expensive cable company models...


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

bradleys said:


> *First *- I would ask what your alternative is? What competing product are you considering that allows PC -> DVR and DVR -> PC transfers.
> 
> *Second*, limitations on TiVo -> PC transfers hasn't been part of the conversation, so I am not sure why the FUD associated with that. It is key to TiVo's current strategy.
> 
> ...


Man, I really get pissed off with people who don't listen to what the people are saying here. Look, the Plex you describe is a fantasy. That quality replay doesn't exist on TiVo and it really sucks. Plex is a nonstarter and is not an equal replacement for what they took away with Hydra. Plex had their shot and blew it. Bring transfer back and add DLNA compliancy. Everyone happy


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Joe3 said:


> Man, I really get pissed off with people who don't listen to what the people are saying here. Look, the Plex you describe is a fantasy. That quality replay doesn't exist on TiVo and it really sucks. Plex is a nonstarter and is not an equal replacement for what they took away with Hydra. Plex had their shot and blew it. Bring transfer back and add DLNA compliancy. Everyone happy


My family and I use Plex on TiVo every day and the replay quality is excellent... I have cord cutter friends and family that wait on my automated uploads for content, some have TiVos, some do not, and it requires nothing more from me then setting up an automated transfer in KMTTG. I have a library of 100's of movies and TV shows nicely indexed without me lifting a finger and my library is rather small compared to individuals I know. Friends have shared their libraries with me as well - if I want to binge series that I just found today - I bet I have access to it... All of it...

I like the Tivo native play as well, but since I use KMTTG to automatically pull out any commercials before Plex automatically adds the content to my library - trick play is less of an issue and I do not have to lift a finger for any of it.

I do not give a flying leap if you get pissed off - because everything I stated is 100% correct and works exactly as I have explained it. I only recently moved to Hydra, but I stopped using Pytivo a few years back for the significantly improved functionality of PLEX!


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Old SD screens, content organization very limited and manually intensive with foldering available but requiring you to spend hours arranging and organizing. And then half the time you can't find what you are looking for if you have an even moderately sized library. Non existent content discovery.... PyTivo can also be temperamental - with setup and configuration confusing both newbies and long time users that have to reconfigure the system.

I added media art to the mobile version of PyTiVo years ago just to help modernize the interface - and tried to make some other contributions to the community that never really made it out of Alpha. (Really worked hard on the direct play from BD player - and now I do not even have a BD player anymore)

I LOVED PyTiVo!!!! I thought it was the greatest thing in the world and I championed the developers and sang its praises for years.

I get that direct play is always better then streaming - but storing the content, indexing the content, finding the content, content platform flexibility, sharing the content - none of this is even in PyTivo's wheelhouse.

So do not tell me what is fantasy and what is reality!


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

bradleys said:


> Old SD screens, content organization very limited and manually intensive with foldering available but requiring you to spend hours arranging and organizing. And then half the time you can't find what you are looking for if you have an even moderately sized library. Non existent content discovery.... PyTivo can also be temperamental - with setup and configuration confusing both newbies and long time users that have to reconfigure the system.
> 
> I added media art to the mobile version of PyTiVo years ago just to help modernize the interface - and tried to make some other contributions to the community that never really made it out of Alpha. (Really worked hard on the direct play from BD player - and now I do not even have a BD player anymore)
> 
> ...


When a person is spending THAT MUCH time and effort on their media library, it's a hobby in and of itself.

As your posts illustrate, Plex is for a larger audience who wants something that easily works as opposed to a media curation/organization hobby.


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## xberk (Dec 3, 2011)

>>If TiVo ever completely kills off the ability to transfer between PC and Tivo, as I get the feeling they will from what I've read in these many other threads, it'll be the end of my relationship with TiVo.

I too used PC to TIVO push transfers extensively with pyTIVO. But, using TIVO as a media server was never that practical. Tivo never had the ability to move things around easily. Organizing and re-organizing your media was always problematic with pyTIVO or whatever. 

To solve it, my son-in-law helped me set up a real media server. It's a pleasure to add content so easily and keep it organized and re-organized. Admittedly TIVO's interface is way better, but considering that I had 1.5TB of media I wanted to store, I'm happy. TIVO can do what they like now.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

jhhyde said:


> quote: "the official answer was taking it away was unintentional". hardee, har, har. right.
> 
> let's see, push taken away (must have been unintentional) , ability to play music taken away (only works on Bolt, no longer works on my Roamio or my Premiere, must have been another unintentional).


I really see no reason to doubt that it was unintentional. This is what happens to neglected code (and there can be no question that it was neglected, when the UI for these functions was never updated for HD). Eventually, as things change around it, it stops working, unless you make an effort to maintain backwards compatibility.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

stile99 said:


> Last I knew, the official answer was taking it away was unintentional, but restoring it is not currently intended either. TE4 is also not currently intended to be a forced install. Read whatever you like into this, especially when such care was put into the word currently.


I think what we were told here was that restoring it would be looked into, but that it wasn't a priority (other things in the relatively-new Hydra were). But that was considerable time ago--are we at more than a year-and-a-half now (or even longer)?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> I really see no reason to doubt that it was unintentional. This is what happens to neglected code (and there can be no question that it was neglected, when the UI for these functions was never updated for HD). Eventually, as things change around it, it stops working, unless you make an effort to maintain backwards compatibility.


I know little of the software and product development process, but it always amazes me to think that something like this feature gets broken and no one notices. Or maybe it did get noticed, but no one really cared or reported it, or it didn't get up to the top levels. (But that still amazes me--this is/was a real feature.)


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Unintentional? They never upgraded the presentation... They have been building out functionality hoping to kill it forever.

- Old SD interface never updated
- Push content eliminated
- MRV to MRS changes without allowing MRS from local stores
- abandoning TiVo desktop

If this was Unintentional, I would like to see when TiVo actually intends to do something!


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

bradleys said:


> Unintentional? They never upgraded the presentation... They have been building out functionality hoping to kill it forever.


If they wanted to kill it, they would. Simple and clean. Leaving non-working code in place doesn't make them look good. It's fairly definitive evidence of a lack of intent.


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## rpj22 (Mar 27, 2016)

Mikeguy said:


> I know little of the software and product development process, but it always amazes me to think that something like this feature gets broken and no one notices. Or maybe it did get noticed, but no one really cared or reported it, or it didn't get up to the top levels. (But that still amazes me--this is/was a real feature.)


I did operating system development for several computer manufacturers and software houses. The only times I saw anything like this were when we were running late on major changes for a big customer with an inflexible delivery date. Anything that customer didn't need simply got thrown overboard if fixing it took too much time. The difference was that we didn't release it to anyone else until the broken stuff had been restored. In this case, imagining the big customers to be cable companies, it is fair to raise one's eyebrows over the fact that it is released to everyone else without being fixed. The obvious guess here, as others have noted, is that rather than forking the system between retail and cable they are experimenting with weaning retail off of those features that cable doesn't need (or want anyone to have, like copying content.)


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Free Tivo Desktop was discontinued in 2013. Desktop Plus followed in 2015. In their mind there wasn't anything to fix/update/maintain after that point.

The EOLs were intentional. They left the code in place but it absolved them of any support. Push worked for another year, and pull still working today on TE3 is just lucky for us.

If they were intent on killing it they would have by now. Rather, they left ancient code alone and it atrophied. One could say they're intentionally neglecting it, but that's semantics. There were no guarantees after the EOL.


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## rpj22 (Mar 27, 2016)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Free Tivo Desktop was discontinued in 2013. Desktop Plus followed in 2015. In their mind there wasn't anything to fix/update/maintain after that point.
> 
> The EOLs were intentional. They left the code in place but it absolved them of any support. Push worked for another year, and pull still working today on TE3 is just lucky for us.
> 
> If they were intent on killing it they would have by now. Rather, they left ancient code alone and it atrophied. One could say they're intentionally neglecting it, but that's semantics. There were no guarantees after the EOL.


You've described *what* they did/didn't do ... the issue here is *why* did they do it? So far there have been two camps here: one that thinks it was purely an accidental/coincidental bug and one that thinks that it is part of an effort to keep the cable operators happy by eventually eliminating the feature. Are you saying that it was intentional, but TiVo's only motivation was that they were tired of supporting the feature?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Free Tivo Desktop was discontinued in 2013. Desktop Plus followed in 2015. In their mind there wasn't anything to fix/update/maintain after that point.


Well, while it's true that TiVo stopped actively distributing and/or selling licenses for the products, they were--and are--still out there, functioning (not unlike my copy of Microsoft Word 2008).* I don't know if it's still the case, but TiVo itself still had a link to download the software after it formally was "discontinued" (although who knows if that simply was an oversight).

* Albeit, the certificates needed for the software to run since have timed out--which a denizen here has updated and made available.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

rpj22 said:


> You've described *what* they did/didn't do ... the issue here is *why* did they do it? So far there have been two camps here: one that thinks it was purely an accidental/coincidental bug and one that thinks that it is part of an effort to keep the cable operators happy by eventually eliminating the feature. Are you saying that it was intentional, but TiVo's only motivation was that they were tired of supporting the feature?


Why did they EOL Desktop? Probably because it wasn't popular enough anymore. The free options (made possible by leaked code, I believe?) didn't help that.

Why did they let transfers start to break? Most likely because the software that used it was EOL'ed and therefore there was no reason to put resources into maintaining it. Whether one calls that accidental or deliberate is a matter of perspective.

I'm reluctant to buy into any MSO theories since it'd be a dumb way to do it. It's also a pretty small fraction of us that use it.

I'll take Ted's word over a conspiracy: "The slow erosion of MRV was more atrophy than intent. TiVo Desktop was EOL almost 5 years ago. TTG and TTCB were not actively removed, but they definitely became unsupported at some point. I don't know the full chronology, but I can guarantee it was not done as part of some master plan."



Mikeguy said:


> Well, while it's true that TiVo stopped actively distributing and/or selling licenses for the products, they were--and are--still out there, functioning (not unlike my copy of Microsoft Word 2008).* I don't know if it's still the case, but TiVo itself still had a link to download the software after it formally was "discontinued" (although who knows if that simply was an oversight).
> 
> * Albeit, the certificates needed for the software to run since have timed out--which a denizen here has updated and made available.


Yeah it's probably floating around through an old site link. It still (partly) works for the same reason kmttg still works and pytivo still partly works. But it's all borrowed time unless/until tivo decides to maintain whatever still works.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

rpj22 said:


> You've described *what* they did/didn't do ... the issue here is *why* did they do it? So far there have been two camps here: one that thinks it was purely an accidental/coincidental bug and one that thinks that it is part of an effort to keep the cable operators happy by eventually eliminating the feature. Are you saying that it was intentional, but TiVo's only motivation was that they were tired of supporting the feature?


I do not think it was either accidental or had anything to do with the cable companies. I suggest that, like anything else, it was strategic decisions, building on strategic decisions against financial and technical priorities.

It started with the migration from MRV (Moving content) to MRS (streaming content) as the primary mechanism for sharing content across TiVos.

- Then TiVo upgraded the screens from SD to HDUI and did not upgrade the experience when browsing against a series 3 TiVos or a local shares.
- Then TiVo discontinued TiVo Desktop and integrated Plex and;
- Then TiVo stopped supporting the legacy development platform
- Finally, they stopped allowing contracts to be renewed for Series 3 and older MRV based TiVos.

Did an executive sit on a high mountain and articulate in 2013 that he wanted to kill PC to TiVo transfers in some future user interface?

No, but it was always legacy and never on the strategic development path and that was never an accident. Each decision built on the other and finally the integration of Plex made abandoning the old legacy code actually something they could contemplate as a strategy.

I was highly disappointed that they didn't upgrade the screens when browsing local shares or implement MRS from local shares - and mentioned a few times on this forum that those decisions were a good sign that this functionality was EOL'ed


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yeah it's probably floating around through an old site link. It still (partly) works for the same reason kmttg still works and pytivo still partly works. *But it's all borrowed time *unless/until tivo decides to maintain whatever still works.


Yep--that's the fear (unless the functionality is such (e.g. isolated enough) that TiVo never has cause to get near it, to affect it). 

I did a quick check and the TiVo Desktop software still is easily found on various sources on the Internet. Long live the Internet!


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Mikeguy said:


> Yep--that's the fear (unless the functionality is such (e.g. isolated enough) that TiVo never has cause to get near it, to affect it).


I have more confidence in pull transfers sticking around since it's an entirely local function, and an active feature of TE3 which Tivo still supports. Compared to push, which required a server login and was intended for podcasts and Desktop Plus and things like that which all got phased out. Tivo's probably not going to touch TE3 very much anymore, so there's that.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

xberk said:


> >>If TiVo ever completely kills off the ability to transfer between PC and Tivo, as I get the feeling they will from what I've read in these many other threads, it'll be the end of my relationship with TiVo.
> 
> I too used PC to TIVO push transfers extensively with pyTIVO. But, using TIVO as a media server was never that practical. Tivo never had the ability to move things around easily. Organizing and re-organizing your media was always problematic with pyTIVO or whatever.
> 
> To solve it, my son-in-law helped me set up a real media server. It's a pleasure to add content so easily and keep it organized and re-organized. Admittedly TIVO's interface is way better, but considering that I had 1.5TB of media I wanted to store, I'm happy. TIVO can do what they like now.


Totally agree, You hit the nail on its head.

No TiVo customers should have to go outside and call on anyone to come and make TiVo a better product. TiVo should be doing it. If TiVo made improvements to make it easier to add content and keep it organized and re-organized, instead of unequivalently trying to emulate the look of trashy online video sellers, then maybe, they would have something worth keeping, and for them selling. Rather than having people leaving TiVo behind. Rather than desperately trying to sell the company by pulling it apart.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The free options (made possible by leaked code, I believe?) didn't help that.


I'm not aware of any leaked code? I can't speak for armooo or others, but when I was working on, e.g., adding metadata support to pyTivo, I did it by 1. reading the HMO specs, 2. making queries to the TiVo's built-in server, and 3. a lot of trial and error. Much of that is documented in the pyTivo thread.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Joe3 said:


> Totally agree, You hit the nail on its head.
> 
> No TiVo customers should have to go outside and call on anyone to come and make TiVo a better product. TiVo should be doing it. If TiVo made improvements to make it easier to add content and keep it organized and re-organized, instead of unequivalently trying to emulate the look of trashy online video sellers, then maybe, they would have something worth keeping, and for them selling. Rather than having people leaving TiVo behind. Rather than desperately trying to sell the company by pulling it apart.


TiVo needs to focus on their core product. The local share access functionality was always poorly implemented and only made functional by some dedicated and talented users.

I would have loved to have seen a fully flushed out local share implementation with media art, descriptions, search and discovery - but it was never going to happen...

They chose to use a fully flushed out product (PLEX) to support that use case - and it is better in all possible ways than the old native implementation


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

I don't necessarily doubt that maybe it was not a direct strategic decision at each point that various features were lost, but IS NOW. They are now full aware that these features are broken or missing and they deliberately choose to not give them priority to get fixed. I have no hope that they will ever do so and therefore, it is a strategic decision at this point to let those features die.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Let me fix that

Strategic decision to replace the functionality with a full featured product instead of allocating significant time and resources updating a poor, limited utility.

There are always people that will not adopt to change, but that does not mean the change was not well considered and the right strategic decision.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Oh, and someone said that TiVo Plex plays only at 720p, that hasn’t been true in a long time. On the Roamio it will stream 1080p and on a Bolt it will stream 4K.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bradleys said:


> Oh, and someone said that TiVo Plex plays only at 720p, that hasn't been true in a long time. On the Roamio it will stream 1080p and on a Bolt it will stream 4K.


It does have issues with many sound codecs, however to get 5.1. It works but it is finicky.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

bradleys said:


> Let me fix that
> 
> Strategic decision to replace the functionality with a full featured product instead of allocating significant time and resources updating a poor, limited utility.
> 
> There are always people that will not adopt to change, but that does not mean the change was not well considered and the right strategic decision.


But from what I've seen, the elimination (or maiming) of transfer was not a well-considered strategic decision--it's just something that resulted.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

bradleys said:


> Oh, and someone said that TiVo Plex plays only at 720p, that hasn't been true in a long time. On the Roamio it will stream 1080p and on a Bolt it will stream 4K.


Many people have stated this is true for their Ruko, but not TiVo.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bradleys said:


> They chose to use a fully flushed out product (PLEX) to support that use case - and it is better *on a Tivo Bolt* in all possible ways than the old native implementation


FTFY.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Joe3 said:


> Many people have stated this is true for their Ruko, but not TiVo.


Random 1080P movie, streaming from PLEX on my Roamio.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

bradleys said:


> Random 1080P movie, streaming from PLEX on my Roamio.
> 
> View attachment 41260


Ok, I revisited PLEX on my Roamio Pro went to settings and highest video quality is still 4 Mbps 720p.
Something is not right.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Joe3 said:


> Ok, I revisited PLEX on my Roamio Pro went to settings and highest video quality is still 4 Mbps 720p.
> Something is not right.


You want me to take a picture of my TiVo to prove it to you? I know what I have and I know what resolutions Tivo on Plex supports...

1080p has been supported on the Roamio since version 2.4.41


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

bradleys said:


> You want me to take a picture of my TiVo to prove it to you? I know what I have and I know what resolutions Tivo on Plex supports...
> 
> 1080p has been supported on the Roamio since version 2.4.41


I am on TE3 are you?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Joe3 said:


> I am on TE3 are you?


Moved from TE3 to TE4 about a month ago for auto skip.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Some random factoids for consideration...

The Plex app, like all the apps except for Netflix, is the Opera Smart TV version. This constrains performance. If they make the Plex app a native app, like Netflix is now, that will vastly improve performance all around. That is the only hope I have regarding "closer integration."

AFAIK, Plex resolution on Roamios is still limited to 720p (even on TE4 - checked both my Roamio Pros). The Bolt supports 1080p. I'd love to know why @bradleys Roamio seems to be an exception. I suspect it is because the particular video is under 4Mbps. Almost none of my 1080p recordings are less than 6Mbps, and some are over 20.

MRV (transferring recordings between TiVos) was the norm because when TiVo launched not many people had LANs (the early TiVos didn't even have ethernet ports). Even once LANs became common, most were 10Mbps LANs and streaming at that speed, even in the SD days, was fragile. MRV simple worked better. Now, MRS is easier and generally more efficient. Secondly, the use of 'copy once' flags makes transfer even more difficult.

To the OP - even if TiVo can't do what you want at all it is still a better deal than moving to the cable company DVRs. You have lifetime...keeping the TiVos costs nothing, while the cable company will charge you rent for a DVR.

<opinion>I really do wish people that are so irate about TiVo starting to behave like a normal company that they wish to dump TiVo would just do so, without the long posts listing all the perceived sins and shortcomings of the firm. You are entitled to your opinion, but the rest of us aren't all that interested in it.</opinion>


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

The Bolt and the Roamio OTA are advertised as supporting 4k playback on Plex - although I have neither to test.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

bradleys said:


> Moved from TE3 to TE4 about a month ago for auto skip.


This brings us back on topic. I am stuck on TE3 with the largest hard drive TiVo has for Roamio. The hard drive is 93% full. I will not spend days moving the files off TiVo unless I can transfer the files back on to the hard drive once TE4 removes them. The anger and frustration towards TiVo by some as to be so intense as to leave is understandable.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> Some random factoids for consideration...
> 
> The Plex app, like all the apps except for Netflix, is the Opera Smart TV version. This constrains performance. If they make the Plex app a native app, like Netflix is now, that will vastly improve performance all around. That is the only hope I have regarding "closer integration."
> 
> ...


Could not disagree more that TiVo is behaving as a "normal company."

It is behaving like it has a death wish and I think all TiVo owners ought be concerned when others are walking away from the TiVo product. Perhaps this article may shed some light as to why ignoring the message people are sending to TiVo is not a good idea at this time or ignoring the many customers who on this forum who warned TiVo over the years that they must immediately return to improving its core product functionality or face bankruptcy. As it turns out, they have been right. TiVo has little time.

"...the only way to see an upside for TiVo right now is if you think that Products spin-off can make up the difference. Hence, my focus at the beginning of this article on the competitive position of TiVo boxes in the marketplace. With Products worth basically $0, TiVo doesn't seem to me to represent value even with this latest pronounced decline...""

TiVo's New Direction Still Doesn't Point Up - TiVo Corporation (NASDAQ:TIVO) | Seeking Alpha


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Joe3 said:


> This brings us back on topic. I am stuck on TE3 with the largest hard drive TiVo has for Roamio. The hard drive is 93% full. I will not spend days moving the files off TiVo unless I can transfer the files back on to the hard drive once TE4 removes them. The anger and frustration towards by some as to be so intense as to leave is understandable.


Moving from TE3 to TE4 will not delete your shows. Reverting back to TE3 from TE4 will delete your shows if you want to downgrade in the future.

Snarky plug: I no longer use my TiVo hardrive for long term storage - if it is something I like and want to keep, I download it and put I in my plex library /snark


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bradleys said:


> The Bolt and the Roamio OTA are advertised as supporting 4k playback on Plex - although I have neither to test.


Good thing, because Plex on a Roamio sucks balls.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Diana Collins said:


> Some random factoids for consideration...
> 
> The Plex app, like all the apps except for Netflix, is the Opera Smart TV version. This constrains performance. If they make the Plex app a native app, like Netflix is now, that will vastly improve performance all around. That is the only hope I have regarding "closer integration."
> 
> ...


True unless you live around here. Comcast has been throwing in an X1 for a year of more now with their bundles so it costs you nothing. Plus if you want to use VOD often the TiVo has become a less than perfect choice. To do any kind of proper streaming you still need a streaming box of some kind. I'm not saying that a TiVo is bad, I'm just saying the choice is getting easier and easier to just move on or supplement. It's really easy to scroll on by the "irate" posts that you're not interested in. I know that some on here don't like to hear anything negative about TiVo but some of us TiVo users are finding that we need to find some options.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

My Samsung 4K smart TV will play media from my PC. The supported video formats list is long. I just enabled media sharing on my Win7 machine and was able to play a movie. I'm using a Comcast DVR now, so I may pull my archival videos from my TE3 Roamio to my PC. As others have said, life moves on.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> Could not disagree more that TiVo is behaving as a "normal company."
> 
> It is behaving like it has a death wish and I think all TiVo owners ought be concerned when others are walking away from the TiVo product. Perhaps this article may shed some light as to why ignoring the message people are sending to TiVo is not a good idea at this time or ignoring the many customers who on this forum who warned TiVo over the years that they must immediately return to improving its core product functionality or face bankruptcy. As it turns out, they have been right. TiVo has little time.
> 
> ...


They are doing what they need to do to survive as a business. The retail business never took off, and has been a side business for years. They make money (aside from patents) from the cable companies. They have developed an IPTV platform, they have revised the UI to be more modern, and catered to the demands of the MVPDs...these are things they HAD to do to survive. A TiVo that continued to be the TiVo of 10 years ago would do no one any good, since they wouldn't be around at all.


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> To the OP - even if TiVo can't do what you want at all it is still a better deal than moving to the cable company DVRs. You have lifetime...keeping the TiVos costs nothing, while the cable company will charge you rent for a DVR.


OP here. Yes, I have lifetime and I'll keep them as long they continue to function. BUT, the other side of this is that I've been thinking of switching to satellite, or even cutting the cord entirely, to try to save money on my cable bill (which is entirely too high). The PC transfer capability and convenience on the TiVo is THE reason I haven't done any of those alternatives up to now. If that PC transfer capability goes away, my motivation to keep my cable subscription goes away. I'd probably just sell my TiVos (at least the Roamio) and jump the cable TV ship entirely. Then I'd take whatever DVR the satellite company gives me, or again, cut the cord entirely.

At the very least, I certainly have no intention of ever purchasing another TiVo.



Diana Collins said:


> They are doing what they need to do to survive as a business. The retail business never took off, and has been a side business for years. They make money (aside from patents) from the cable companies. They have developed an IPTV platform, they have revised the UI to be more modern, and catered to the demands of the MVPDs...these are things they HAD to do to survive. A TiVo that continued to be the TiVo of 10 years ago would do no one any good, since they wouldn't be around at all.


As I read this, this seems to back up a large part of my point. TiVo doesn't care about the retail sector any longer, so why would anyone buy TiVo via direct retail at this point?

Completely separate but related random thought I just had. Isn't using a TiVo Mini to view a recording from a primary Roamio or Bolt technically "streaming"? And that gives us full TiVo transport control (FF/REW/30 sec skip/8 sec replay) capability while watching that. So theoretically, why wouldn't it be possible to stream content from a PC or other local network source using the same technique and give us full native TiVo transport control with that content?

THAT's my main gripe. It's not the "streaming" in and of itself. I want the transport control that we have on native TiVo recordings when viewing locally streamed content via my TiVo.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Zaphod said:


> Completely separate but related random thought I just had. Isn't using a TiVo Mini to view a recording from a primary Roamio or Bolt technically "streaming"? And that gives us full TiVo transport control (FF/REW/30 sec skip/8 sec replay) capability while watching that. So theoretically, why wouldn't it be possible to stream content from a PC or other local network source using the same technique and give us full native TiVo transport control with that content?


One word...latency. When a mini tells the DVR to pause or skip back or forward that command gets from mini to DVR in about 1 milli-second. When sending a similar command to a server over the internet, the command could take over 100 times as long.

Secondly, TiVo controls both ends of the DVR/Mini operation. When streaming the streaming provider controls the two ends of the session and TiVo is just hosting THEIR code. If large amounts of storage were available, they COULD buffer several minutes and do most Trick-play in the buffer, but refer to my first point where I note that TiVo uses a SmartTV platform for apps, where the amount of storage is tiny.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

He said local network PC, not an internet server so latency is not the issue.

Tivo's answer would be the same as others here - use crappy Plex client on Tivo, not Tivo's far superior native transport controls.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> He said local network PC, not an internet server so latency is not the issue.
> 
> Tivo's answer would be the same as others here - use crappy Plex client on Tivo, not Tivo's far superior native transport controls.


See "Secondly" above. TiVo doesn't write the apps, the providers (including Plex) do. Netflix is the only app that runs under the TiVo OS, the rest are just the OperaTV platform for smart TVs.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Diana Collins said:


> One word...latency. When a mini tells the DVR to pause or skip back or forward that command gets from mini to DVR in about 1 milli-second. When sending a similar command to a server over the internet, the command could take over 100 times as long.


This is why streaming devices and the apps that run on them should locally cache at least the last several minutes of the video stream. Most apps on my Apple TV 4K seem to cache the last 30 seconds; I can stack up to 3 10-second instant replays and the video resumes faster than on a TiVo. But stacking 4 or more usually causes the video stream to rebuffer, which takes 1-2 sec. The YouTube apps seems to be an exception, though, as I can stack lots of instant replays there without seeing a rebuffer. But then that app doesn't use Apple's native playback UI, so I guess Google is doing their own thing with caching.


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> One word...latency. When a mini tells the DVR to pause or skip back or forward that command gets from mini to DVR in about 1 milli-second. When sending a similar command to a server over the internet, the command could take over 100 times as long.


As someone else said, I mean explicitly for in-home streaming from a local PC, not internet.

Although, trick-play works pretty well when viewing a recorded program out of home streamed from my Roamio via the TiVo app on my Android phone (when it works, which is a whole different discussion). Not quite as good as when watching at home on the DVR itself (or Mini), but better than any other streaming video app I've ever used. So I think it's at least feasible to have a reasonably well performing trick-play with internet streaming.



Diana Collins said:


> Secondly, TiVo controls both ends of the DVR/Mini operation. When streaming the streaming provider controls the two ends of the session and TiVo is just hosting THEIR code. If large amounts of storage were available, they COULD buffer several minutes and do most Trick-play in the buffer, but refer to my first point where I note that TiVo uses a SmartTV platform for apps, where the amount of storage is tiny.


TiVo could write their own application for the PC that acts as a TiVO host DVR to the mini or other Roamio or Bolts to serve up the content from a local PC in the same manner that host Roamio/Bolt serves up the content to a mini. But I guess, in a very loose sense (it wasn't streaming), that's what TiVo Desktop was and they let that die, so TiVo probably doesn't have any desire to develop their own "server" app on the PC. But they could.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Zaphod said:


> And now with retro-TV channels I'm going back and archving a handful of old 60's, 70's, and 80's TV shows.


Umm, those shows are not the original shows -- they're at _least_ hacked up for more commercial time, and possibly censored for other reasons, etc..

e.g. an hour show from the 60s likely had 50+ minutes of content. Nowadays, network TV shows that are an hour are around 41-42 minutes, but that's even a few years old. Cable shows are even shorter.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

Diana Collins said:


> Netflix is the only app that runs under the TiVo OS, the rest are just the OperaTV platform for smart TVs.


Curious, where did you read this? I thought Netflix, HBOGo, Amazon, Hulu & VUDU used OperaTV's HTML5 runtime on Linux (TiVo's customized version).


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Zaphod said:


> TiVo could write their own application for the PC that acts as a TiVO host DVR to the mini or other Roamio or Bolts to serve up the content from a local PC in the same manner that host Roamio/Bolt serves up the content to a mini. But I guess, in a very loose sense (it wasn't streaming), that's what TiVo Desktop was and they let that die, so TiVo probably doesn't have any desire to develop their own "server" app on the PC. But they could.


Yes, exactly. Tivo could've done something simple long ago like DLNA support for popular formats (mkv, mp4 etc.) using their native transport controls, but they didn't. Something like the Roku Media Player for example, a very simple app for local content access.

Lots of folks have asked for DLNA over the years, Tivo ignored them. And it's not like it was rocket science to implement, there's a zillion media players for all OS out there.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> It does have issues with many sound codecs, however to get 5.1. It works but it is finicky.


The Plex server should be transcoding it to the capabilities of the device.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> Many people have stated this is true for their Ruko, but not TiVo.


Maybe the older Rokus. but none of the Rokus I've been using for the last few years have any problem streaming up to 2160P content.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bradleys said:


> The Bolt and the Roamio OTA are advertised as supporting 4k playback on Plex - although I have neither to test.


The Bolt can do 4K playback. The Roamio can't output at higher than 1080P. So it should get transcoded down to 1080P for playback.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

CloudAtlas said:


> Curious, where did you read this? I thought Netflix, HBOGo, Amazon, Hulu & VUDU used OperaTV's HTML5 runtime on Linux (TiVo's customized version).


I didn't...I think it is obvious. All the others have a delay (while the Opera platform is loading) before the app itself starts to load. Netflix starts to load immediately. It also performs far better than any of the other apps.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

bradleys said:


> Oh, and someone said that TiVo Plex plays only at 720p, that hasn't been true in a long time. On the Roamio it will stream 1080p and on a Bolt it will stream 4K.


Sorry, incorrect. The Roamio version of Plex IS limited to 720p *OR* 4Mbps. If you have a low bit rate 1080p file that is below 4Mbps it will play back in 1080p. Your example above had only a 2.1 Mbps video rate. Anything above 4Mbps will get transcoded to 720p/4Mbps.

I don't own a bolt so can't swear to how it handles higher bit rate files.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> Sorry, incorrect. The Roamio version of Plex IS limited to 720p *OR* 4Mbps. If you have a low bit rate 1080p file that is below 4Mbps it will play back in 1080p. Your example above had only a 2.1 Mbps video rate. Anything above 4Mbps will get transcoded to 720p/4Mbps.
> 
> I don't own a bolt so can't swear to how it handles higher bit rate files.


Really? It's still down to such a low bitrate file? I haven't checked Plex out on my Roamio in a while. Most of the videos I play through Plex are 60+ Mb/s bitrates files. Since most of my watching is from UHD BD MKV rips. But I'm using my streamers for that and not my Bolts or Roamios.

720P/4Mb/s is pretty pathetic. Even my cell phone direct streams my 2160P 60+ Mb/s UHD BD MKV rips over cellular with plex. If a device can't direct stream my 1080P and 2160P content with Plex then I don't use it with Plex.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Granted, There are fans who never played at a professional level that think they could run a professional sports team better that its owners. And there are TiVo fans who think they can run the TiVo company better than its owner, but there is a big difference.

Unlike professional sport, TiVo is a business and most of the recommendations here are coming at TiVo from successful people who have played and won the game of professional business. Most recommendations are thought out by successful professionals in their own right, successful at their own companies and immediately recognized bad practices that lead to failure because of the fact they are successful in their organizations. They are given without malice with the intention to share their experience and knowledge for the better of TiVo's longevity and consumer fans. TiVo would do well to put its egotistical mind aside and listen to them.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Joe3 said:


> Granted, There are fans who never played at a professional level that think they could run a professional sports team better that its owners. And there are TiVo fans who think they can run the TiVo company better than its owner, but there is a big difference.
> 
> Unlike professional sport, TiVo is a business and most of the recommendations here are coming at TiVo from successful people who have played and won the game of professional business. Most recommendations are thought out by successful professionals in their own right, successful at their own companies and immediately recognized bad practices that lead to failure because of the fact they are successful in their organizations. They are given without malice with the intention to share their experience and knowledge for the better of TiVo's longevity and consumer fans. TiVo would do well to put its egotistical mind aside and listen to them.


Except that, the people taking actions now are the same ones who purchased the original TiVo company just 3+ years ago . . . .


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

chicagobrownblue said:


> My Samsung 4K smart TV will play media from my PC. The supported video formats list is long. I just enabled media sharing on my Win7 machine and was able to play a movie...


First video played. That was beginner's luck. Second and third videos did not play. I used a file converter to get them to play. Fourth video no dice initially or with my first video converter. Second video converter did the trick. I now have 3 video converters that have successfully converted all of my videos so far. Someone said it's stupid to use a TV as a media player, but it sure handly.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

chicagobrownblue said:


> First video played. That was beginner's luck. Second and third videos did not play. I used a file converter to get them to play. Fourth video no dice initially or with my first video converter. Second video converter did the trick. I now have 3 video converters that have successfully converted all of my videos so far. *Someone said it's stupid to use a TV as a media player, but it sure handly.*


^ +1. Not stupid at all--sometimes I prefer watching a TV show or movie that is on my PC via my 40" Samsung LCD TV rather than via the 15.5" HP laptop screen balanced on my chest.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yes, exactly. And Tivo could've easily done this with a simple media player w/DLNA support but as usual didn't listen to the TCF users that asked for it. Which is why workarounds such as streambaby were created.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yes, exactly. And Tivo could've easily done this with a simple media player w/DLNA support but as usual didn't listen to the TCF users that asked for it. Which is why workarounds such as streambaby were created.


Seems to be a business decision. Chase the small number of users who even know what DLNA is who have tons of alternatives at their disposal or go after the mass market.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> Seems to be a business decision. Chase the small number of users who even know what DLNA is who have tons of alternatives at their disposal or go after the mass market.


Yeah. Well, at some point, I suspect that TiVo decided that if their cable company partners didn't care about a particular feature (regardless of whether or not their retail users did), then it made no business sense to devote resources to developing and supporting that feature. Seems counterintuitive from the perspective of this forum, where nearly everyone is a retail user, but this group just isn't their target market any more.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. Well, at some point, I suspect that TiVo decided that if their cable company partners didn't care about a particular feature (regardless of whether or not their retail users did), then it made no business sense to devote resources to developing and supporting that feature. Seems counterintuitive from the perspective of this forum, where nearly everyone is a retail user, but this group just isn't their target market any more.


That is too simplistic and I don't buy it. Yes, the cable company partners are a factor but that would be because they are customers and customers matter. What zealots here are experiencing is that TiVo is not catering to hobbyists who are small in number. Many retail customers don't care about transfers from pc to TiVo for example.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> That is too simplistic and I don't buy it. Yes, the cable company partners are a factor but that would be because they are customers and customers matter. What zealots here are experiencing is that TiVo is not catering to hobbyists who are small in number. Many retail customers don't care about transfers from pc to TiVo for example.


And my point is that it doesn't really matter what percentage of retail customers fall into the category you call "zealots" or "hobbyists" because PC-to-TiVo transfer simply isn't a feature that TiVo's cable/IPTV partners care about. Period. So TiVo isn't going to spend time/money on it. (In fact, I'd say that cable operators are actively opposed to the feature for two reasons: it reduces the provider lock-in effect -- "I don't want to leave RCN cable TV because then I'd have to give up my backlog of recordings on the TiVo they provide me" -- and it raises the ire of the Hollywood content owners whose networks the cable providers distribute.)

The business rationale for TiVo's retail division is to provide a testbed for developing platforms that can be more fully monetized via their cable/IPTV partners. No point in plowing resources into a feature that doesn't help TiVo land or renew contracts with those partners.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

DLNA never really lived up to the hype. It was kind of clunky and hard to use. Even devices that did it well didn't do it that well. That's how services like Plex came to be. They took all the issues with DLNA and made them easier. 

VidPath fixed a lot of the issues with DLNA but it never really caught on either. At this point I think the market for in home streaming is pretty small. Services like iTunes, VUDU and Amazon allow you to "own" almost any media you would want and stream it from the cloud without any need to rip discs, categorize them, etc.... For everyone that still does that sort of thing Plex is kind of the gold standard of personal media libraries.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> DLNA never really lived up to the hype. It was kind of clunky and hard to use. Even devices that did it well didn't do it that well. That's how services like Plex came to be. They took all the issues with DLNA and made them easier.
> 
> VidPath fixed a lot of the issues with DLNA but it never really caught on either. At this point I think the market for in home streaming is pretty small. Services like iTunes, VUDU and Amazon allow you to "own" almost any media you would want and stream it from the cloud without any need to rip discs, categorize them, etc.... For everyone that still does that sort of thing Plex is kind of the gold standard of personal media libraries.


Agree about DLNA, I cant even ffwd, rew songs from on my receiver from a NAS with DLNA. Its well known im not a fan of Plex on Tivo as they intentionally broke ISO streaming and dont trust them, but something like the FFMPG capabilities in Kodi would be so welcome on the TiVo, or VLC


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> And my point is that it doesn't really matter what percentage of retail customers fall into the category you call "zealots" or "hobbyists" because PC-to-TiVo transfer simply isn't a feature that TiVo's cable/IPTV partners care about. Period. *So TiVo isn't going to spend time/money on it. *(In fact, I'd say that cable operators are actively opposed to the feature for two reasons: it reduces the provider lock-in effect -- "I don't want to leave RCN cable TV because then I'd have to give up my backlog of recordings on the TiVo they provide me" -- and it raises the ire of the Hollywood content owners whose networks the cable providers distribute.)
> 
> The business rationale for TiVo's retail division is to provide a testbed for developing platforms that can be more fully monetized via their cable/IPTV partners. No point in plowing resources into a feature that doesn't help TiVo land or renew contracts with those partners.


Don't spend time and money on it, just leave it alone and working.  (Yes, I know.)


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

I actually prefer Emby more than Plex now.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

For those that really want TV Shows on their PC, you'll be happier in the long run if you just drop Tivo. I'd suggest getting Emby and a HDHomerun Prime and then use Nvidia Shields as your client hardware that connects to the TV. The server is your PC. It's not turnkey like a Tivo but you get a great media server (better than Plex in my opinion) and a live TV solution. It won't work with DRM channels but you can generally get them via streaming. If most of your channels from your cable company are DRM then just go with a solution like YoutubeTV and forget the cable company -- no HDHomerun required in that case. Tivo hasn't been very innovative in a long time and is actually taking away features now. Their future is probably in cable box replacements rather than consumer products.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I can already do the TV shows on my PC with my TiVos. I use kmttg to automatically transfer the shows. Then it automatically names them and converts it to an extension that Plex can use. Then Plex automatically adds it to my library.

And I could have all the commercials automatically removed too. If I wanted to set it up that way. 

But these shows are just backups to my streaming. Since the video quality from FiOS and from OTA in my area is so bad now. Since I have switched to streaming my shows six months ago, I have not needed any of my TiVo show recordings. 

Sent from my Galaxy S10


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

The idea that TiVo retail is just a ginny-pig for big cable and TiVo is now their ***** can't hold up if you think about it. It's the definition of half-assed backwards thinking. Yes, the contract with these dinosaurs are good for the time being, but these are cable company dinosaurs disappearing like the Dodo. The long term retail business model has not changed, the market to deliver a personal television experience will always be there and not with a dying industry. Let alone a dying cable industry that's hasn't been in the drivers seat for almost a decade.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

mlcarson said:


> For those that really want TV Shows on their PC, you'll be happier in the long run if you just drop Tivo.


Fine by me. Unfortunately, there's family preference to deal with. Not going to move. No,

But, hey, if they want subtitles I've got to bypass the Tivo anyway, up to me I'd just junk the things entirely rather than having essentially a parallel system like I've got now.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Joe3 said:


> The idea that TiVo retail is just a ginny-pig for big cable and TiVo is now their ***** can't hold up if you think about it. It's the definition of half-assed backwards thinking. Yes, the contract with these dinosaurs are good for the time being, but these are cable company dinosaurs disappearing like the Dodo. The long term retail business model has not changed, the market to deliver a personal television experience will always be there and not with a dying industry. Let alone a dying cable industry that's hasn't been in the drivers seat for almost a decade.


Your argument makes absolutely no sense. Perhaps cable companies are dinosaurs destined for extinction (in a decade or so). But if so, then how is TiVo going to survive on retail customers who subscribe to those companies' cable TV packages?! Meanwhile, cable companies are starting to move away from CableCARD-compatible QAM TV toward incompatible IPTV. Retail TiVos will probably never work with any IPTV service; if TiVo wants to be part of those systems, then they must sign those IPTV providers up as partners.

Sure, TiVo could focus their future retail efforts on OTA DVRs but, let's be honest, that's a pretty niche market. The vast majority of OTA viewers who are willing to spend money on DVR service would rather just spend that cash on on-demand streaming services.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Your argument makes absolutely no sense. ...how is TiVo going to survive on retail customers ...


It doesn't make sense if you have your predictions of winners and losers as some forgone conclusions. I am not betting on a horse in a race. I am just the TiVo customer, one that has one foot out the door.

However, I am saying, the market to deliver a personal television experience will always be there and not with a dying industry. TiVo is in best position to deliver this personal experience in retail because their retail is adaptable to it. They sell the personal TV experience by the quality of their special features that the other guy can't or won't deliver, not by becoming the guy who can't deliver.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Joe3 said:


> It doesn't make sense if you have your predictions of winners and losers as some forgone conclusions. I am not betting on a horse in a race. I am just the TiVo customer, one that has one foot out the door.
> 
> However, I am saying, the market to deliver a personal television experience will always be there and not with a dying industry. TiVo is in best position to deliver this personal experience in retail because their retail is adaptable to it. They sell the personal TV experience by the quality of their special features that the other guy can't or won't deliver not by becoming the guy who can't deliver.


OK.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Joe3 said:


> It doesn't make sense if you have your predictions of winners and losers as some forgone conclusions. I am not betting on a horse in a race. I am just the TiVo customer, one that has one foot out the door.
> 
> However, I am saying, the market to deliver a personal television experience will always be there and not with a dying industry. TiVo is in best position to deliver this personal experience in retail because their retail is adaptable to it. They sell the personal TV experience by the quality of their special features that the other guy can't or won't deliver not by becoming the guy who can't deliver.


I appreciate much of what you're saying but, from what people have said, unless all the cableco consumers become retail consumers, the numbers just aren't there--we're the vast minority.


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## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

Wil said:


> ...But, hey, *if they want subtitles I've got to bypass the Tivo* anyway, up to me I'd just junk the things entirely rather than having essentially a parallel system like I've got now.


Are you referring to Closed Captions on TiVo-to-PC transfers?

I get perfect Closed Captions with @Dan203 's PyTiVo Desktop in TS mode when the errors are zero (SEARCH TCF for "TS Sync Errors" and my UserID). It took a while to figure out all the hoops necessary to jump through.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

ClearToLand said:


> Are you referring to Closed Captions on TiVo-to-PC transfers.


No. Subtitles. Other direction.

EDIT because there is apparently misunderstanding: We were, I think, discussing Tivo & pyTivo for playback of media, not Plex.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Joe3 said:


> It doesn't make sense if you have your predictions of winners and losers as some forgone conclusions. I am not betting on a horse in a race. I am just the TiVo customer, one that has one foot out the door.
> 
> However, I am saying, the market to deliver a personal television experience will always be there and not with a dying industry. TiVo is in best position to deliver this personal experience in retail because their retail is adaptable to it. They sell the personal TV experience by the quality of their special features that the other guy can't or won't deliver not by becoming the guy who can't deliver.


What good is this personal television experience if it doesn't work on any systems?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Wil said:


> Fine by me. Unfortunately, there's family preference to deal with. Not going to move. No,
> 
> But, hey, if they want subtitles I've got to bypass the Tivo anyway, up to me I'd just junk the things entirely rather than having essentially a parallel system like I've got now.


I am not sure I understand your complaint about subtitles... TiVo does subtitles fine, with a press and hold of the B button and Plex just added automatic subtitle library access for content - so if you don't have to go looking for a subtitle file yourself.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

mschnebly said:


> What good is this personal television experience if it doesn't work on any systems?


Henceforth, not a personal television experience.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> DLNA never really lived up to the hype. It was kind of clunky and hard to use. Even devices that did it well didn't do it that well. That's how services like Plex came to be. They took all the issues with DLNA and made them easier.


Well I was talking about Tivo doing a home media player years ago and DLNA was the standard then. Of course it would be different now, and it's also moot - if you want to stream stuff from a home PC your Tivo is not what you want to use, generally speaking.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> Well I was talking about Tivo doing a home media player years ago and DLNA was the standard then. Of course it would be different now, and it's also moot - if you want to stream stuff from a home PC your Tivo is not what you want to use, generally speaking.


I think the biggest issue now is that most people don't stream from PC. With so many streaming services out there it's not really worth the effort to maintain your own streaming library. Which in turn means it's not really worth it to TiVo to write their own streaming app.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I think the biggest issue now is that most people don't stream from PC. With so many streaming services out there it's not really worth the effort to maintain your own streaming library. Which in turn means it's not really worth it to TiVo to write their own streaming app.


That like saying there are so many radio channel services its not really worth it to buy and maintain your own music library. However, there are many out there who want to maintain their own personal library and enjoy their own collection. Why would TiVo want to keep and gain those people as paying customers, I mean why do extra work, work too hard.

Oh, Plex is capped on TiVo.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> Oh, Plex is handicapped on TiVo.


Plex is painful/impossible to use on Tivo, depending on your tolerance.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Wil said:


> Plex is painful/impossible to use on Tivo, depending on your tolerance.


That's the point here. People are fed up with the bull ****.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Joe3 said:


> That like saying there are so many radio channel services its not really worth it to buy and maintain your own music library. However, there are many out there who want to maintain their own personal library and enjoy their own collection. Why would TiVo want to keep and gain those people as paying customers, I mean why do extra work, work too hard.
> 
> Oh, Plex is capped on TiVo.


So are those hand full of people really looking to spend the money that it costs for a TiVo to stream their music to their TV?


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

OP here...



TonyD79 said:


> What zealots here are experiencing is that TiVo is not catering to hobbyists who are small in number. Many retail customers don't care about transfers from pc to TiVo for example.


The intention of my original post was more about them taking away features, consciously or not, that are the main reason some of us long standing customers bought a TiVo in the first place. By taking away the features, they are taking away any reason for me to stay with their products. I.e, I likely won't ever upgrade to any other newer TiVo device.

But granted, we're probably in the minority at this point.



mschnebly said:


> So are those hand full of people really looking to spend the money that it costs for a TiVo to stream their music to their TV?


Similarly to my comment above, my original post is not really about new customers, no, I wouldn't expect a new customer to buy a TiVo for that purpose. It's about retaining long standing customers who were using those features that they've taken away.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Wil said:


> Plex is painful/impossible to use on Tivo, depending on your tolerance.


How so? It will direct play my UHD videos on my Bolts with Plex.. But it does need to transcode the audio. But it can still play all my HD content and UHD content with ease using Plex. And it provides a nice GUI that has cover art, poster art, etc.

Sent from my Nexus 7(32GB)


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

mschnebly said:


> So are those hand full of people really looking to spend the money that it costs for a TiVo to stream their music to their TV?


The more accurate question is TiVo willing to add features to keep their paying customers base growing or are they going to dumb down their product for a dying industry (cable) and give the rest of us smoke and mirrors, thinking we will continue to pay for that.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Most people never have/will never buy a DVR, most of non-Tivo units are OTA only. The dying cable industry maybe the only thing that keep Tivo afloat. Cable is dying a very slow death.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tenthplanet said:


> Most people never have/will never buy a DVR, most of non-Tivo units are OTA only. The dying cable industry maybe the only thing that keep Tivo afloat. Cable is dying a very slow death.


Yeah. Although cable's death may be picking up pace next year.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> How so? It will direct play my UHD videos on my Bolts with Plex.. But it does need to transcode the audio. But it can still play all my HD content and UHD content with ease using Plex. And it provides a nice GUI that has cover art, poster art, etc.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7(32GB)


I generally agree with you but Plex for tivo lost the ability to direct stream h.265 content many revisions ago. (all h.265 content is transcoded to h.264 currently and HDR content has never been supported on Tivo). Still requires manual editing of the profile to get ac3 audio back each time it updates as Plex refuses to update or fix problems with the very out of date client on Tivo. It works relatively well for 1080p content on a Bolt but Plex has given up on any further development for Tivo platform. The current client is not even using the same UI as the rest of the plex clients.

For Roamio, plex is useless. The hardware is too old and too slow. Menus are very slow and playback is limited to 720p.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Zaphod said:


> Similarly to my comment above, my original post is not really about new customers, no, I wouldn't expect a new customer to buy a TiVo for that purpose. It's about retaining long standing customers who were using those features that they've taken away.


I think TiVo's long standing customers are all on lifetime so TiVo doesn't make any money off of them. They're not going to leave over a few missing features like transfers or streaming. Would they go to an even more inferior DVR from the cable cos. out of anger?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jcthorne said:


> I generally agree with you but Plex for tivo lost the ability to direct stream h.265 content many revisions ago. (all h.265 content is transcoded to h.264 currently and HDR content has never been supported on Tivo). Still requires manual editing of the profile to get ac3 audio back each time it updates as Plex refuses to update or fix problems with the very out of date client on Tivo. It works relatively well for 1080p content on a Bolt but Plex has given up on any further development for Tivo platform. The current client is not even using the same UI as the rest of the plex clients.
> 
> For Roamio, plex is useless. The hardware is too old and too slow. Menus are very slow and playback is limited to 720p.


On my Bolts it direct plays my HEVC UHD MKV rips. But no HDR as you said.

Edit: I guess I got it wrong. It's my Mini Vox that plays everything and Direct plays my UHD MKV rips. I was messing around with it last week. And I could have sworn I was using my Bolts. But it was my Mini Vox. Sorry about that.

I don't use my TiVos regularly like I used to in the past. Because of the Terrible video quality from FiOS and from OTA in the DC area. And then everyone else has also surpassed TiVo in apps. The Bolt had so much promise when it was released in 2015. But then soon their apps were quickly surpassed.
Sent from my Nexus 7(32GB)


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> On my Bolts it direct plays my HEVC UHD MKV rips. But no HDR as you said.
> 
> Edit: I guess I got it wrong. It's my Mini Vox that plays everything and Direct plays my UHD MKV rips. I was messing around with it last week. And I could have sworn I was using my Bolts. But it was my Mini Vox. Sorry about that.
> 
> ...


Hmm, Interesting the difference between MiniVOx and Bolt Plex clients. I rarely use Plex on our bedroom mini. For now, Tivo is still the center of our media world with Plex filling in but that is likely to swap once the Tivo apps for AndroidTV or FireTV become available. For all the reasons you just mentioned.

FYI, the Bold did play h.265 (SDR) for a while but at some point the communication between the outdated app and the server software quit working correctly. The Bolt does not correctly communicate its capabilities to the server. For audio changing the profile to ac3 gets it to work but editing the video does not. I have expressed the problem to Plex a few times but there have been no updates in a LONG time. They seem to have given up on it. Tivo has told us they are working with Plex but have seen no evidence of it.


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## PCurry57 (Feb 27, 2012)

dlfl said:


> Unfortunately, for Spectrum, legacy TWC systems at least, all channels other than local broadcast stations are copy protected.


Not all channels, IFC, Sundance and a couple of others are copy freely.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

PCurry57 said:


> Not all channels, IFC, Sundance and a couple of others are copy freely.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Perhaps your Spectrum system is not a former TWC system? Sundance is copy protected on mine. (Along with all other channels except local broadcast stations.)


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## PCurry57 (Feb 27, 2012)

dlfl said:


> Perhaps your Spectrum system is not a former TWC system? Sundance is copy protected on mine. (Along with all other channels except local broadcast stations.)


Nope this was indeed former TWC territory, I was here. I know whom I previously paid the bill to. I'm also painfully aware of the price for internet doubling.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

mschnebly said:


> I think TiVo's long standing customers are all on lifetime so TiVo doesn't make any money off of them. They're not going to leave over a few missing features like transfers or streaming. Would they go to an even more inferior DVR from the cable cos. out of anger?


And apparently TiVo doesn't care if we ever upgrade devices again either. I've upgraded twice in the past (from a S2 to HD, then to Roamio) so there's every reason to believe that I might do so again. But having lost the features I care about, they've indeed assured I'll never upgrade again.

Also, I mentioned this before, but it might just give me the impetus to finally cut the cord. I continue to pay my way too high cable bill because of these features I have on my TiVo. But again, once TiVo takes away the primary features I want, I might just sell my Roamio with Lifetime and cut the cord. Then I'll at least make back some money off of TiVo.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> And apparently TiVo doesn't care if we ever upgrade devices again either. I've upgraded twice in the past (from a S2 to HD, then to Roamio) so there's every reason to believe that I might do so again. But having lost the features I care about, they've indeed assured I'll never upgrade again.
> 
> Also, I mentioned this before, but it might just give me the impetus to finally cut the cord. I continue to pay my way too high cable bill because of these features I have on my TiVo. But again, once TiVo takes away the primary features I want, I might just sell my Roamio with Lifetime and cut the cord. Then I'll at least make back some money off of TiVo.


TiVO is not forcing you off of TE3. The Bolt DVR runs TE3 so you still have an upgrade option. You just won't be able to upgrade to a Tivo Edge DVR. Honestly Premieres can only run TE3 so TiVO has to support TE3 so what do they care if your Roamio or Bolt run TE3? This is much ado about nothing.

You started this thread on May 27th and it's now July and you are still angry. Unless you want to spend the rest of your days angry in a padded room you should decide what will make you happy and Just Do It. But if you cut the cord you might want to avoid the TiVO Bolt OTA. raying:


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