# To TIVO or NOT to TIVO!?



## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

Hi, new to this forum. I may have ditched DISH Satellite too soon (after over a decade). I hadn't thought of the inconveniences we would encounter. The reason we finally cancelled was because, other than local stations, the only other stations we watched were LIFETIME (wife) and ESPN and FOXNEWS (myself). Ridiculous IMO to pay over $100.00 for 2 stations (we now have OTA with indoor antennas with a much better HD picture quality than with satellite). We are in San Antonio, TX and receive 22 stations (6 hispanic) crystal clear!

Now for the problem/inconvenience- I assumed we would be able to use our DVD recorders to record the local stations at our convenience. Well, we CANNOT! Our 2 brand new HD/3D LG Tv's have no video outputs (only inputs-except for an optical audio output). I googled and found that this is by design to FORCE us to cable/satellite/TIVO etc.(Receivers with outputs). They even stopped selling DVD recorders WITH DIGITAL ATSC tuners to make it further IMPOSSIBLE to record. I previously had a Panasonic DVD recorder with a digital tuner (had no use-at the time for the tuner since it was hooked up to satellite receiver) I had paid $169.00 for it approx. 4 years ago-they are now selling on Amazon(used) for over $700.00(with digital tuners). Saw some today on Amazon for over (900.00) and E-bay with starting bids at $200 which will hit the ceiling I'm sure! Wow, are we being manipulated!!

OK! Rant Over!! Is Tivo the best option? We were considering the cheaper Premier model for $99.00 and $14.95 per month. It only has a 320 GB and 45 hours of HD recording. That's ok for us since even with DVD recording we watched/erased often. How easy does the TIVO record and erase. Is the local channel guide convenient (since we will have it connected ONLY to the OTA input). Is it better to purchase directly through the TIVO website or through alternates (Amazon etc.) Any advice will be appreciated. We were looking forward (1 year ago) to purchasing the NEW ON MARKET BLU RAY DVD RECORDER (with ATSC tuner) to record. They are off the market(never made it to our market)in the US, but are selling well in Japan/Korea etc. It's not the fault of the makers-Panasonic/ LG etc. They simply understand that there is no market for them in the U.S. because of the aforementioned.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Tivo is dead simple to use. It will manage recording from multiple tuners, deleting, conflicts, space constraints, suggestions, and much much more. You can also add more capacity if you find yourself using more space that you expect.

If you go with a TiVo- it will really not matter who you buy from. I would highly recommend lifetime service. It has a clear payback and residual value.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Now that you are receiving OTA only, Tivo might be a good choice for you.
Forget DVD recorders. Tivo allows you to transfer OTA shows directly to your computer. From there you can burn DVDs with DVD authoring software. This also allows you to use your computer as extra storage for your shows.

Take a look through this forum.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=7&f=35

Edit: Er, I missed the point where you said you just used DVD recorders to save and then erase. 
As said above, Tivo is simple to use. I would think using a DVD recorder is more trouble than it's worth.

Some advice if you decide to purchase:
If you can afford the upfront cost, get the Product Lifetime Service ($499). It's cheaper in the long run if you plan to use it more than 3 years. Plus if you ever decide to sell it, it will have a lot more value than an unsubscribed unit.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

You might look for a used TIVo 3 with lifetime on craigslist or ebay.


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

lpwcomp said:


> You might look for a used TIVo 3 with lifetime on craigslist or ebay.


:up::up::up:

Yeah, an S3HD with lifetime goes for somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 on eBay. You would pay that off in less than two years of monthly Tivo subscription on the Premiere. Yes, it only has 160GB stock drive but its very easy to upgrade if you need something larger.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> You might look for a used TIVo 3 with lifetime on craigslist or ebay.


Good suggestion. The OP probably wouldn't care about all the bells and whistles the Premiere has.
A Series 3 or TivoHD with PLS would meet his needs and cost less.


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## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions-another concern: do you ALWAYS have to be connected to the internet to use the tv guide screen and record/receive programming/ or just for netflix etc. Thanks again!

oops-not finished yet! more questions- since taking the DISH receiver out of the signal path and having just a pure signal from the indoor antenna directly to the TV HDMI input, we have a far superior HD picture quality-it's pristine! Is it better to connect the antenna to the TIVO and out to the TV- or antenna to TIVO then to AV Receiver and then AV receiver to TV (as we had with DISH NETWORK). Seems like the signal/picture is degraded the more inputs/ouputs between the antenna and TV. We never noticed this (for years) until we connected the indoor antenna directly to the TV and saw how much sharper and clearer it was. Maybe I'm too picky!? advice/input? Thanks


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

tedrik said:


> Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions-another concern: do you ALWAYS have to be connected to the internet to use the tv guide screen and record/receive programming/ or just for netflix etc. Thanks again!


A Tivo does not have to ALWAYS be connected to the internet to function (Using a Premiere w/ the HDUI would be the exception).
However, it depends on the internet to get daily guide updates. Since TV programming can change on a daily basis, it is best to always be connected so the Tivo always has the most up to date guide info.



tedrik said:


> oops-not finished yet! more questions- since taking the DISH receiver out of the signal path and having just a pure signal from the indoor antenna directly to the TV HDMI input, we have a far superior HD picture quality-it's pristine! Is it better to connect the antenna to the TIVO and out to the TV- or antenna to TIVO then to AV Receiver and then AV receiver to TV (as we had with DISH NETWORK). Seems like the signal/picture is degraded the more inputs/ouputs between the antenna and TV. We never noticed this (for years) until we connected the indoor antenna directly to the TV and saw how much sharper and clearer it was. Maybe I'm too picky!? advice/input? Thanks


The basic set up is Antenna to the Tivo, and then Tivo to TV with either HDMI or component cables.

To put a receiver in the mix, you can do the above set up and use an optical cable to the receiver, 
or you can do Antenna > Tivo > Receiver > TV with HDMI or component cables. Picture should not be degraded. If it is, blame the receiver.


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## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks again-would be nice if the TIVO's had BUILT_IN wireless.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

If you go wireless, use the TiVo-recommended adapters only.

A few months ago Premieres were being offered with special OTA-only subscription service for only $10/mo. AFAIK those deals are gone, but keep your eyes open.

I agree a used PLS Series 3 (HD or S3) is a good choice but there are disadvantages that go with the lower price:
1. Power supplies, especially in the S3 models mfr'd before 2009 are having power supply failures due to "capacitor plague". Replacement PS'es sell for $100 if you do the install.
2. Hard Drive failures are the most common failure mode in TiVo's. You will of course be getting a hard drive with some mileage on it.
Of course a used item won't have any warranty coverage for these items.

On the other hand, there have been many complaints that the OTA receiver sensitivity of the Premiere is less than for the Series 3 models. If your antenna signals are strong it probably won't be an issue.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

dlfl said:


> If you go wireless, use the TiVo-recommended adapters only.


Do you mean the TiVo Branded Wifi Adapters? If you do, I cannot disagree more. For the price of the TiVo Wireless N Network Adapter, which is a Single Band, 2.4GHz adapter, you can purchase a Dual-Band 2.4/5GHz Wireless Bridge, which will perform much better, especially for MRS. (This assumes you have or are willing to get a Dual-Band 2.4/5GHz Wireless Router, which most people do not have.)

Here is a Cisco-Linksys WET610N Dual-Band Wireless-N Gaming and Video Adapter - $50
www.amazon.com/Cisco-Linksys-WET610N-Dual-Band-Wireless-N-Adapter/dp/B001QVQ7JU/

And there are several more options for a Single Band, 2.4GHz Wireless N Adapter for much less. Several $20-$50 Single Band, 2.4GHz Wireless N Routers can be configured as a Bridge or have a Bridge Mode. Here are a couple at Monoprice: 
$20 - http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10521&cs_id=1052102&p_id=8071&seq=1&format=2
$25 - http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10521&cs_id=1052102&p_id=8070&seq=1&format=2

The comparable value of the TiVo Wireless N Adapter is less than $40
$35.49 - TRENDnet Wireless N Gaming Adapter TEW-647GA
http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Wireless-Gaming-Adapter-TEW-647GA/dp/B0024G48VA/

I would never consider a Wireless G Adapter either, TiVo or other brand.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

tedrik said:


> Now for the problem/inconvenience- I assumed we would be able to use our DVD recorders to record the local stations at our convenience.


Why would you assume that?



tedrik said:


> Well, we CANNOT! Our 2 brand new HD/3D LG Tv's have no video outputs (only inputs-except for an optical audio output).


Have you ever owned a TV with a video output?



tedrik said:


> I googled and found that this is by design to FORCE us to cable/satellite/TIVO etc.(Receivers with outputs).


That's just nonsense. The TV has traditionally been designed as a video terminal device, not an Audio/Video Receiver. There is no vast conspiracy to force the public to buy auxiliary gear. Rather, the TV is and always has been a minimally configured device designed to be able to display video for a minimum of cost. Some high end TVs do have video outputs (my Mitsubishi WD-62528 has an analog video output for recording, for example), but it is just not something the average owner would care to have given an extra cost.



tedrik said:


> They even stopped selling DVD recorders WITH DIGITAL ATSC tuners to make it further IMPOSSIBLE to record.


I wasn't really aware there were any that had them in the first place, but it is certainly not impossible to record a DVD.



tedrik said:


> I previously had a Panasonic DVD recorder with a digital tuner (had no use-at the time for the tuner since it was hooked up to satellite receiver) I had paid $169.00 for it approx. 4 years ago-they are now selling on Amazon(used) for over $700.00(with digital tuners). Saw some today on Amazon for over (900.00) and E-bay with starting bids at $200 which will hit the ceiling I'm sure! Wow, are we being manipulated!!


I don't know what fool would pay that. Heck, a brand new ATSC tuner for the PC can be had for under $100, and a new DVD burner for under $40.



tedrik said:


> Is Tivo the best option?


That's a very subjective question.



tedrik said:


> We were considering the cheaper Premier model for $99.00 and $14.95 per month.


I do not recommend the Premier, but if you truly intend never to record anything but OTA (what's the point? Except for PBS, there is nothing worth watching OTA), then it may suffice for you.



tedrik said:


> It only has a 320 GB and 45 hours of HD recording.


In my estimation, a larger hard drive will serve you well. Not only will it allow for greater flexibility, setting the original HD on the shelf for safekeeping is a really, *REALLY* good idea.



tedrik said:


> That's ok for us since even with DVD recording we watched/erased often.


With a TiVo, there is very little particular reason to ever erase anything except to reduce "clutter".



tedrik said:


> How easy does the TIVO record and erase.


Every two weeks or so I browse the list of upcoming HD movies to find any the TiVo has not already decided to record. Since there are usually about 5000 movies coming on in the next two weeks, this actually takes about 45 minutes, but would require many hours with any other method. Every time a new movie is announced to be shown in theaters that I would like to see when it comes out on one of the Cable channels, I set a wishlist for it, which takes about a minute or less. Other than that, I have barely touched my TiVos other than to watch the content recorded on them for the last 12 years, yetin that time they have recorded many tens of thousands of shows.



tedrik said:


> Is the local channel guide convenient (since we will have it connected ONLY to the OTA input).


There is no reason to use the channel guide, ever. It is a waste of time. I haven't used it (them, actually - the TiVo has two different guides) in 12 years.



tedrik said:


> Is it better to purchase directly through the TIVO website or through alternates (Amazon etc.)


Wherever you get the best deal.



tedrik said:


> We were looking forward (1 year ago) to purchasing the NEW ON MARKET BLU RAY DVD RECORDER (with ATSC tuner) to record. They are off the market(never made it to our market)in the US, but are selling well in Japan/Korea etc. It's not the fault of the makers-Panasonic/ LG etc. They simply understand that there is no market for them in the U.S. because of the aforementioned.


Not really. It's a pretty dumb idea. I have a set top DVD burner. 'Haven't used it since I got a TiVo. It's nothing but a pain and a waste of time, irrespective of inputs or outputs. (I have plenty of outputs.)


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

steve614 said:


> Good suggestion. The OP probably wouldn't care about all the bells and whistles the Premiere has.


What bells and whistles? I have a Premier (zero cost lease), two S3s, and a THD. Other than network performance and 1080p video, the Premier has nothing of value over and above the S3 or THD, and is missing some very important features.



steve614 said:


> A Series 3 or TivoHD with PLS would meet his needs and cost less.


I agree.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

tedrik said:


> oops-not finished yet! more questions- since taking the DISH receiver out of the signal path and having just a pure signal from the indoor antenna directly to the TV HDMI input, we have a far superior HD picture quality-it's pristine! Is it better to connect the antenna to the TIVO and out to the TV- or antenna to TIVO then to AV Receiver and then AV receiver to TV (as we had with DISH NETWORK). Seems like the signal/picture is degraded the more inputs/ouputs between the antenna and TV.


Not with digital. The digital signal is a stream of ones and zeros. It does not suffer degradation as analog signals do. Unless you are doing some sort of video processing (uniklely), then if you have convinced yourself the PQ is degraded by the signal path, you are fooling yourself.



tedrik said:


> We never noticed this (for years) until we connected the indoor antenna directly to the TV and saw how much sharper and clearer it was.


Compared to what and for what sort of video source? Even with analog video processing gear, it is fairly unlikely one would be able to tell the difference between processed and un-processed signals, unless the gear was faulty. With digital, it's all but impossible.



tedrik said:


> Maybe I'm too picky!?


No, but I think it likely you may have convinced yourself of something that is not true. Actually, several somethings.


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

tedrik said:


> Is Tivo the best option?


Best is always highly subjective regardless of topic. If you want us to try to answer that for you then you need to be very clear regarding your specific criteria. Tivo obviously isn't one-size-fits-all or else everyone would use it.



tedrik said:


> oops-not finished yet! more questions- since taking the DISH receiver out of the signal path and having just a pure signal from the indoor antenna directly to the TV HDMI input, we have a far superior HD picture quality-it's pristine! Is it better to connect the antenna to the TIVO and out to the TV- or antenna to TIVO then to AV Receiver and then AV receiver to TV (as we had with DISH NETWORK). Seems like the signal/picture is degraded the more inputs/ouputs between the antenna and TV. We never noticed this (for years) until we connected the indoor antenna directly to the TV and saw how much sharper and clearer it was. Maybe I'm too picky!?


Sounds to me like you're confusing compression with degradation. It's not uncommon for OTA image quality to be superior due to less compression. The satellite and cable operators use quite a bit of compression to get all those channels to their customers.



dlfl said:


> If you go wireless, use the TiVo-recommended adapters only.


Explaining why would be of benefit for any recommendation.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> If you go wireless, use the TiVo-recommended adapters only.
> .........





takeshi said:


> ..........Explaining why would be of benefit for any recommendation.


Good point and I admit I have no personal experience using wireless adapters on a TiVo. I have formed the general impression from reading this forum for years that the TiVo recommended adapters were the only reliable choice and many people had trouble when they used others. Maybe this situation has changed with the newer model TiVo's. I have no reason to dispute what CoxInPHX says in post #11 here -- it sounds very authoritative, although perhaps not applicable if you already have a wireless router or WAP that is NOT wireless-N (and don't want to pay to upgrade your router).


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## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

lrhorer said:


> Why would you assume that?
> 
> Have you ever owned a TV with a video output?
> 
> ...


Nothing worth watching/recording OTA!? Do your opinions rule!? Totally disagree!


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## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

lrhorer said:


> Why would you assume that?
> 
> Have you ever owned a TV with a video output?
> 
> ...


Of course I've had Tv's with multiple video outputs until the newer models came out eliminating them and making impossible to use my DVD recorder. The TV, in the past has always had the ability to output signals for the convenience of recording FROM THE TV. I googled the terms where I found information as to why the outputs were "eliminated". It makes sense in this world of Corporate Greed.


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## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

lrhorer said:


> Not with digital. The digital signal is a stream of ones and zeros. It does not suffer degradation as analog signals do. Unless you are doing some sort of video processing (uniklely), then if you have convinced yourself the PQ is degraded by the signal path, you are fooling yourself.
> 
> Compared to what and for what sort of video source? Even with analog video processing gear, it is fairly unlikely one would be able to tell the difference between processed and un-processed signals, unless the gear was faulty. With digital, it's all but impossible.
> 
> No, but I think it likely you may have convinced yourself of something that is not true. Actually, several somethings.


LOL!!!!


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> What bells and whistles? I have a Premier (zero cost lease), two S3s, and a THD. Other than network performance and 1080p video, the Premier has nothing of value over and above the S3 or THD, and is missing some very important features.


It's been over a year since I traded up from my other THD, so I don't recall for sure, but I was pretty certain that only the Premeire supports: multi-room streaming, Parental controls, the HDUI (and picture in menu), a disk usage meter, the upgraded Netflix and Youtube interfaces and full feature support on the iPad/Android apps.

How critical those are really depends on the user. I would easily qualify several of them as 'bells and whistles'. I do know that my family REALLY appreciates the upgraded Netflix client. The older one sucked so bad that we never used it, in favor of any other device (360, PS3, Bluray player) with a better interface. Multi-room streaming obviously requires two TiVos, but I use it all the time, now, watching HD recordings from the bedroom in the living room and vice-versa. The disk usage meter sounds like the dumbest thing ever, but I really like it. It tells me when it's time to prune old shows.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Not quite. You are correct about the HDUI, MRS, the disk usage meter, and full feature support on the smart devices, but you forgot Hulu +. 

The Series 3/TivoHD has parental controls, and because the Netflix and Youtube interfaces were upgraded on the TiVo side of things, Series 3 users are also getting the interfaces in HD now.

Also, the Series 3 Tivos have a disk usage meter.
It's called the 'Recently Deleted Folder'.


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## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

Just placed my order for the TIVO TCD746500 at Amazon (sold/shipped by ABT electronics-$129.99 w/free shipping/no tax.) After so many positive reviews I couldn't stop myself!


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

WizarDru said:


> It's been over a year since I traded up from my other THD, so I don't recall for sure, but I was pretty certain that only the Premeire supports: multi-room streaming


Yawn. Especially for him, since he says he is only going to have one Tivo, making multi-room anything moot, and he is OTA, making MRS moot even if he winds up getting more than 1 TiVo. I have four TiVos, and I almost never use MRV. It would not upset me for it to disappear.



WizarDru said:


> Parental controls


I can't speak ot the relative merits of parental controls between the two platforms, since I have not investigated it, but the S3 has parental controls.



WizarDru said:


> the HDUI (and picture in menu)


That not a bell, it's a blob of slag. Subtract another 10 points from the Premier.



WizarDru said:


> a disk usage meter


Worse than useless. The DUM provides nothing of benefit to the user. At best it is a waste of time and a utility that induces stress for no reason.



WizarDru said:


> the upgraded Netflix and Youtube interfaces


I have no use for Netflix,m because I have a TiVo. I have no use for YouTube because it is YouTube. Given the OPs responses, it doesn't sound like they mean very much to him, either, although I could be mistaken.



WizarDru said:


> and full feature support on the iPad/Android apps.


Since I never intend to have either one, this definitely fails the useability test, although the iPad interfce is a bit smoother when used with kmttg as opposed to TiVoWebPlus. What, if anything, they mean to the OP I can't say. In any case, it's an extremely tiny feature set compared to what is lost over the S3.



WizarDru said:


> I would easily qualify several of them as 'bells and whistles'. I do know that my family REALLY appreciates the upgraded Netflix client.


I understand this to be the case, but why escapes me. There is almost nothing on NetFlix that is both of any interest and that I do not already have.



WizarDru said:


> The older one sucked so bad that we never used it, in favor of any other 2device (360, PS3, Bluray player) with a better interface.


I would submit NetFlix sucks fairly badly irrespective of the interface. Sloggin through the endless list of garbage, I find not one title in ten ot be of even remote interest, and that one title is almost always one I already have in my library, courtesy of my TiVos.



WizarDru said:


> Multi-room streaming obviously requires two TiVos, but I use it all the time, now, watching HD recordings from the bedroom in the living room and vice-versa.


Why? (BTW, having a TV in the bedroom is a rather bad idea, as any sleep specialist or psychiatrist can tell you. Having a TV in the bedroom tends to induce poor sleep patterns and sleep deprivation, and tends to reinforce depression.)



WizarDru said:


> The disk usage meter sounds like the dumbest thing ever, but I really like it. It tells me when it's time to prune old shows.


That's just the point. It is never, ever, EVER time to prune old shows, and if your TiVo is ever anything but completely full, you are wasting its capabilities. There is nothing whatsoever ot be gained by manually deleting shows unless they are ones that you don't want to watch. All four of my TiVos are nearly 100% full nearly 100% of the time, and it is not unusual for the oldest program to be more than a year old. I never delete any show unless I no longer want to watch it, irrespective of its age. The TiVo handles that magnificently all by itself without me having to worry about it, or even bother to turn on the TV. With only a couple of small exceptions, I never do anything with the TiVo but watch what is on it. (Ignoring TTG, which is done without the TV being on.)


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

steve614 said:


> Also, the Series 3 Tivos have a disk usage meter.
> It's called the 'Recently Deleted Folder'.


And there is one in kmttg, and a couple of other 3rd party apps that provide one of one sort or the other. None of them are of any real use. The amount of disk space in use is simply not a piece of information the user can employ to any significant benefit. Even if one, for some unfathomable reason, does want to "prune" the content on the hard drive, a DUM neither tells the user when it is appropriate nor for which files it is appropriate. This information, if one is obsessively compulsive, has to be obtained from the NPL, from where it is easy to obtain it. The question, "How much space is used" is simply irrelevant. The relevant question, and not very relevant at that is, "What is the oldest program and how old is it?" It is that program the TIVo is going to delete, and if it is one the user doesn't want to lose, then the user needs to either watch it, archive it, or set it KUID, the latter being a last resort. OTOH, in the vast majority of cases, how really important is it that the user retain a program he hasn't bothered to watch in perhaps a year or more?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

tedrik said:


> Nothing worth watching/recording OTA!? Do your opinions rule!? Totally disagree!


Please avoid quoting an entire post just to rebut a single point in the post, particularly one embedded deep inside the post.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

tedrik said:


> Just placed my order for the TIVO TCD746500 at Amazon (sold/shipped by ABT electronics-$129.99 w/free shipping/no tax.) After so many positive reviews I couldn't stop myself!


Not a bad choice.

Are you going to go with monthly service subscription or Product Lifetime Service subscription?

You should be able to subcribe it online after you create an account at TiVo.com.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Please avoid quoting an entire post just to rebut a single point in the post, particularly one embedded deep inside the post.


+1 :up: Makes for huge posts filled with mostly irrelevant content. At least you fill your huge posts with some original content.


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## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

lrhorer said:


> Please avoid quoting an entire post just to rebut a single point in the post, particularly one embedded deep inside the post.


OMG I am so sorry- I should be prosecuted to the Max!!


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

tedrik said:


> OMG I am so sorry- I should be prosecuted to the Max!!


I never suggested any sort of censure of your behavior. I merely made a reasonable and polite request that you think of others when you post while at the same time making your own posts more effective and efficient by eliminating superfluous quoting. What part of any of that should elicit sarcasm in your response?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dlfl said:


> +1 :up: Makes for huge posts filled with mostly irrelevant content. At least you fill your huge posts with some original content.


I suppose I do love the sound of my own voice... er... look of my own typing, but I do indeed try to make well supported statements lacking in superfluity, and I definitely do try to avoid excessive or unnecessary quoting.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

steve614 said:


> Are you going to go with monthly service subscription or Product Lifetime Service subscription?


PLS is always a little bit of a gamble, but not much. If one can fit it into one's budget, it can potentially save one a good chunk of change over the long run. It takes a couple of years to completely amortize the investment, but at that point in time one has a box that sells for a fair amount of cash on ebay or craigslist. Even if one sells the TiVo after about a year or so, the increased sale price offsets the amount one spent over and above the cost of a monthly sub.


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## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

lrhorer said:


> I never suggested any sort of censure of your behavior. I merely made a reasonable and polite request that you think of others when you post while at the same time making your own posts more effective and efficient by eliminating superfluous quoting. What part of any of that should elicit sarcasm in your response?


I will certainly work on making my posts more effective and efficient by eliminating superfluous quoting. I'm totally in awe of your vast knowledge and your ability to provide such "constructive" criticism/comments to the many good faith posters who are looking for a bit of help with a side order of politeness. It's so refreshing to be able to seek advice without having to endure posters with condescending/know-it-all attitudes. Thankyou for being here to assist all the TIVO members.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Since both of you guys are in San Antonio why don't you just meet up and have your snark-off in person?

Better yet, buy each other a beer.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

I didn't snark. I made a polite and proper request of someone who is obviously quite new to the forum. When his response was abusive, I merely asked him if such abuse was warranted. I never snarked at him or made any personal references. That is the point, and it is also why I declined to respond to his last post.

I don't drink.


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## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

steve614 said:


> Not a bad choice.
> 
> Are you going to go with monthly service subscription or Product Lifetime Service subscription?
> 
> You should be able to subcribe it online after you create an account at TiVo.com.


checked tracking this AM and TIVO will be delivered tomorrow. Inititially, we intended to order 2, but I guess it makes sense to try it first. As far as the Lifetime subscription-it's a no-brainer-that we would save money. But, after years of $100.00 plus satellite bills $14.95 or $28.00 a month is not a huge concern. Whenever we replace our electronics, we donate or give to friends/neighbors, so selling is not a consideration ( valid point of the benefit in selling a TIVO unit which has the lifetime subscription).

So, with TIVO- OTA and Netflix and the occasional online rental from VUDU or Amazon, we should be pretty well set.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> I have four TiVos, and I almost never use MRV. It would not upset me for it to disappear.)


I'm surprised you even own one Tivo considering that you believe there's absolutely nothing worth watching on TV. By now you surely must have realized that you're the exception to the rule when it comes to TV viewers with Tivos. Many of us do watch OTA programming and other shows on cable or FIOS that are recurring and require season passes, regardless of what your tastes are.

Just another thread crapped on by lrhorer.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

tedrik said:


> Whenever we replace our electronics, we donate or give to friends/neighbors, so selling is not a consideration ( valid point of the benefit in selling a TIVO unit which has the lifetime subscription).


I think you're sort of using backwards logic here too though.

If you give the electronics to friends/neighbors, you are effectively giving them an albatross, since they are getting used/old electronics that requires (what a lot of people consider) an expensive monthly fee.

So even for giving it away, if you have used it for enough months to make the lifetime price amortized down to a reasonable amount, you're still giving your friends/neighbors a FAR better gift if it already has a subscription.


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## tedrik (Jul 30, 2012)

mattack said:


> I think you're sort of using backwards logic here too though.
> 
> If you give the electronics to friends/neighbors, you are effectively giving them an albatross, since they are getting used/old electronics that requires (what a lot of people consider) an expensive monthly fee.
> 
> So even for giving it away, if you have used it for enough months to make the lifetime price amortized down to a reasonable amount, you're still giving your friends/neighbors a FAR better gift if it already has a subscription.


I guess I need to clarify- We're mostly talking Tv's, DVD players etc. which the recipients have been very grateful/thankful and for the most part use and enjoy them (i.e. 2, 4 year old plasma tv's we recently gave away when replacing with our new LG LCD TV's). I agree, then I probably should NOT gift a TIVO without the LIFETIME subscription. Anyway, this is a long time future consideration, since we haven't even received our 1st TIVO yet (out for delivery today).


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

tedrik said:


> I guess I need to clarify- We're mostly talking Tv's, DVD players etc. which the recipients have been very grateful/thankful and for the most part use and enjoy them (i.e. 2, 4 year old plasma tv's we recently gave away when replacing with our new LG LCD TV's). I agree, then I probably should NOT gift a TIVO without the LIFETIME subscription.


Give 'em a Series 2 and see if they can get the $399 deal on a lifetimed Premiere.


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> I understand this to be the case, but why escapes me. There is almost nothing on NetFlix that is both of any interest and that I do not already have.


Ah, I see. I misunderstood your point. I thought you were claiming that the Premiere had no features to differentiate it from the TivoHD or Series 3. What you were actually saying was that you don't care for any the features on the Premiere as they have no value to you. Fair enough. Your experience is not universal, however. I find some of these features to be killer apps. I think you overrate the TiVo's internal logic concerning old shows, too....I also routinely have shows that are a year old (example: we watched two season finales from 2011 this weekend, so we could catch up with the 2012 premieres) and have had situations where the TiVo failed to record something because it was full. We do lots of 'impulse recordings' and I have four different people recording things...sometimes at cross purposes and often set to never delete. Our use of the TiVo is different than yours, so it isn't surprising that our opinions of its features are likewise not the same.



lrhorer said:


> Why? (BTW, having a TV in the bedroom is a rather bad idea, as any sleep specialist or psychiatrist can tell you. Having a TV in the bedroom tends to induce poor sleep patterns and sleep deprivation, and tends to reinforce depression.)


Why would I have second TV and Tivo? So that more than one person can watch TV at the same time.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

WizarDru said:


> I think you overrate the TiVo's internal logic concerning old shows, too....


Nary a bit. Some of my Tivos have shows that have been awaiting deletion for 3 years.


WizarDru said:


> I also routinely have shows that are a year old


I have quite a large number that are that old or considerably older:










Only one has an oldest scheduled program less than a year old and that is because I only got the TiVo three months ago.

Of course, I have archived many, many hundreds that are a lot older than that, but even on the TiVos I have a handful of KUID programs that are almost 6 years old:












WizarDru said:


> (example: we watched two season finales from 2011 this weekend, so we could catch up with the 2012 premieres) and have had situations where the TiVo failed to record something because it was full.


That can never happen on a TiVo unless one excessivley employs KUID, in which case lost recordings are a given. KUID in general does not prevent programs from being lost. Rather it makes it much more likely. All of my TiVos are virtually 100% full essentially 100% of the time, and they record up to 30 programs every day. I've never lost a recording, except due to my own mistake, or external issues like a power or cable outage or system lock-ups.



WizarDru said:


> We do lots of 'impulse recordings' and I have four different people recording things...


That's really not relevant to this issue, although it probably does call for larger hard drives. If the TiVo hard drive is too small, then it limits the ability of the user to watch everything they want before some of it becomes in jeopardy of being deleted.

For example, suppose the Tivo had such a tiny hard drive (or so little drive space left after KUID recordings are taken into account) that the user is recording on average a volume of shows that will completely fill the hard drive in 24 hours, then as long as the user watches every single thing recorded in less than 24 hours, then none of the content will be in jeopardy of being deleted. OTOH, if the user takes more than 24 hours to watch the content, then some *WILL* be deleted. It doesn't matter whether the amount of sapce on the drive is 100M or 100,000T, if only 24 hours of recordings will fit, then after 24 hours some recordings will be lost. Lets say the number is 10G, for a round number. Increasing the size of the drive so that no recording will ever be in jeopardy of being deleted does not require getting a 3650G hard drive. Indeed, it will only require perhaps a 300G or 400G drive. At some point, the TiVo storage becomes effectively infinite. Where that point lies is variable depending on the recording and viewing habits of the poeple using the DVR, so a family of four with active recording habits and very sporadic viewing habits will require a much larger drive than a single person who watches everything they record within a few days of it being recorded.

Note the DVR will not create more time to watch, other than allowing the user to skip commercials. If the average amount your family records exceeds long term the average amount it watches, then at some point shows are going to begin to be lost, no matter how large the hard drive.

As an aside, if it is the intent to keep any items (as opposed to just leaving the items on the TiVo) for over a year, it would definitely be a good idea to archive then until they are needed.



WizarDru said:


> and often set to never delete.


Doing so with any frequency and certainly doing so habitually pretty much guarantees recordings are going to be lost. This, then may urge the users to set more KUID, which loses more programs. It is an absolute fact that the lowest number of lost recordings will be produced by setting nothing whatsoever to KUID. It is also an absolute fact that without KUID intervention, it will always be the programs that have sat on the TiVo the longest that get lost, and no new recording will ever fail to be recored due to hard drive recording capacity.

Absolutely 100% guatanteed, no matter how many programs are recorded by how many people, how big the hard drive is, how many programs get watched in a given period, or how old the programs might be.



WizarDru said:


> Our use of the TiVo is different than yours, so it isn't surprising that our opinions of its features are likewise not the same.


WRT internet features, that may well be true, but WRT hard drive capacity and core recording features, I don't know whether it is, or not. What types of recordings one favors is of course a perfectly individual thing, but at a fundamental level capacity management has little to nothing to do with individual preferences or habits. The size and variety of the FIFO pool will vary a lot from one household to another, but the mathematics governing the realtiver behavior does not.



WizarDru said:


> Why would I have second TV and Tivo? So that more than one person can watch TV at the same time.


I never made any sort of comment about that question. Indeed, as you can see above I have four TiVos, plus six different TVs around the house, so it would be a singularly odd comment for me to make. None of the TiVos or TVs are in bedrooms (unless one considders a convertible guest room to be a bedroom), though, and all I said is placing a TV in a bedroom can have significant and possibly serious negative impacts on one's health. Again, as any pulmonologist or sleep specialist will advise you, to promote good health, a bed should be used for two and only two things: sleeping and making love. Eating, reading, and especially watching TV in the bedroom should be avoided. Doing such things in bed promotes increased fatigue, sleep depravation, insomnia, anxiety, and depression.


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> Absolutely 100% guatanteed, no matter how many programs are recorded by how many people, how big the hard drive is, how many programs get watched in a given period, or how old the programs might be.


So we agree then, that those features are necessary to ME, because I use the KUID feature a lot, which is significantly different than you and that we diverge significantly on the value and importance of features on the Premiere. I think we can put that to rest, then.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

"It is also an absolute fact that without KUID intervention, it will always be the programs that have sat on the TiVo the longest that get lost, and no new recording will ever fail to be recored due to hard drive recording capacity."

My experience differs from this.


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