# TIVO BOLT+ not compatible with my cable provider - I'd be willing to beta test



## DVRanger (Nov 28, 2017)

Hi all,
So here is my story. I posted back here a few months ago about pixelation on my Tivo Bolt+.

Let's just say things did not end well. I had been using a Tivo Premier Elite for 4-5 years, rock solid. And I am back to using it. The Bolt+ simply was not compatible with my provider and eventually the incompatibility got bad enough that I was losing ability to see channels every other day - No program lock despite good signal, good SNR, and good cablecard authorization. Basically everything looked fine except was losing program lock, v53 errors, v58 errors, pixilation, etc.

I tried the following:
* Calling out the cable tech to test the lines, no problem found
* All sorts of different splitter configurations and brands
* Multiple cable cards
* Multiple POE filters
* Multiple combinations of attenuators
* Two TiVo Bolt+ Devices

In the end the only solution was returning the Bolt+ and going back to the Premier Elite which 100% worked fine when the Tivo Bolt+ couldn't tune a single channel. The thing that is most odd is that I know someone else on the same system (though not same town, about 4 miles away) who has the same provider, same cablecard brand, same system - yet Tivo Bolt Vox works about 95% fine (still gets some pixilation but very minor).

If TiVo is reading this and ever comes out with a new piece of hardware with different tuners I'd be willing to beta test it. Apparently I am in a "worst case scenario" for the Tivo Bolt tuners where I am. I really, really, really liked the bolt but in the end it just wasn't compatible and nothing I nor tech support could do would fix it.


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## tlogue (Sep 29, 2010)

I am in the same boat. My Premiere works great. I had upgraded my other Tivo to a Bolt, so I've got 2 running. I've switched cards, runs, cables, floors, rooms and the issue stays with the Bolt. Losing program lock, v53 errors, v58 errors, pixilation - exactly the same issues described above. I was getting ready to toss the Bolt in a closet and swap with an Atlantic Broadband system (they use Tivo!!)

I was one of the early adopters and have had Tivo since the inception. I'm sad....


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## DVRanger (Nov 28, 2017)

tlogue said:


> I am in the same boat. My Premiere works great. I had upgraded my other Tivo to a Bolt, so I've got 2 running. I've switched cards, runs, cables, floors, rooms and the issue stays with the Bolt. Losing program lock, v53 errors, v58 errors, pixilation - exactly the same issues described above. I was getting ready to toss the Bolt in a closet and swap with an Atlantic Broadband system (they use Tivo!!)
> 
> I was one of the early adopters and have had Tivo since the inception. I'm sad....


Wouldn't happen to be NDS cablecard would it?


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## tlogue (Sep 29, 2010)

Motorola.


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## DVRanger (Nov 28, 2017)

tlogue said:


> Motorola.


Odd. I figured it was the older nds cablecard but you have nearly identical symptoms with a different card. I bet if tivo did some line diagnostics on both our signals they could figure out what is causing the issue with bolt.

Do you use actiontec moca 2.0 adapters?


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## tlogue (Sep 29, 2010)

No. It would be nice if Tivo could figure this out. It looks like the Bolt is the problem...


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## DVRanger (Nov 28, 2017)

tlogue said:


> No. It would be nice if Tivo could figure this out. It looks like the Bolt is the problem...


The bolt tuners sound like the problem but question is what makes our signals different than most others that can use bolt without major issue?


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## shamilian (Mar 27, 2003)

DVRanger said:


> The bolt tuners sound like the problem but question is what makes our signals different than most others that can use bolt without major issue?


Bolt tuners just aren't as good as the previous tivo tuners.
I have FIOS and after I got bolts they all seem to have problems on certain channels.

tivo was not interested in the fact the roamios and premieres were fine and 
3 bolts were bad....tivos reported weak signals on certain channels., the other
reported good signal levels.

finally got fios to come out and check the signal, found the bad channels
had more noise at those frequencies, changed out the fiber connection at
the back-end and the noise was gone on all channels.

tivo just isn't willing to improve their product, it will likely
take a cable company that uses bolt to push them to fix their product.


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## DVRanger (Nov 28, 2017)

shamilian said:


> Bolt tuners just aren't as good as the previous tivo tuners.
> I have FIOS and after I got bolts they all seem to have problems on certain channels.
> 
> tivo was not interested in the fact the roamios and premieres were fine and
> ...


I wonder if they would give me a deal on a Roamio Pro? That's almost as fast as the bolt plus the tuners of the premier right?


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

DVRanger said:


> I wonder if they would give me a deal on a Roamio Pro? That's almost as fast as the bolt plus the tuners of the premier right?


They don't make pros anymore. They may have a refurb, but I doubt it. You can probably pick up a used one on eBay with lifetime for a decent price.


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## DVRanger (Nov 28, 2017)

UCLABB said:


> They don't make pros anymore. They may have a refurb, but I doubt it. You can probably pick up a used one on eBay with lifetime for a decent price.


Yeh and come to think of it it's not 4k either. I think I'm just going to keep my premiere elite and hope tivo releases a better model in a couple years.


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## DVRanger (Nov 28, 2017)

It's too bad I was never able to discuss this with a high level tivo tech. I could guarantee the source of the problem is my cable company providing me with a noisy out of spec signal, but it's hard to argue with them when my tivo premiere and their box works fine. They can just blame the issue on the Bolt as a result.


If tivo wants to use less robust tuners, fine, but then they need to also be more proactive in ensuring cable companies provide a usable signal as tivo has much more pull than n a regular user.


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## Skanter123 (Feb 28, 2015)

I only have one bad channel - ch 13 PBS here in NYC - pixelization, dropouts - unwatchable. I had same problem on previous Premier. Spectrum Cable box does not have this problem so I doubt cable company would help. Experimenting with attenuators (6 and 10 db) so far no luck.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

Skanter123 said:


> I only have one bad channel - ch 13 PBS here in NYC - pixelization, dropouts - unwatchable. I had same problem on previous Premier. Spectrum Cable box does not have this problem so I doubt cable company would help. Experimenting with attenuators (6 and 10 db) so far no luck.


I'm starting same process here on Long Island. Bolt+ and Bolt both pixelate randomly on upper channels. Premiere and other previous TiVos did not. I rented Optimum STB and picture is perfect with 0 pixelation. Ran diagnostics with TIVO support and they claim my SNR (signal to noise ratio) is too high on some channels. It varied from 34-39. They said I have to get Optimum to come to install 6 or 8DB attenuators and that will fix the problem. I just have to go through this process but I've already tried multiple cable cards and service says signal is perfect. Give up or keep trying?


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## Skanter123 (Feb 28, 2015)

hankuro said:


> I'm starting same process here on Long Island. Bolt+ and Bolt both pixelate randomly on upper channels. Premiere and other previous TiVos did not. I rented Optimum STB and picture is perfect with 0 pixelation. Ran diagnostics with TIVO support and they claim my SNR (signal to noise ratio) is too high on some channels. It varied from 34-39. They said I have to get Optimum to come to install 6 or 8DB attenuators and that will fix the problem. I just have to go through this process but I've already tried multiple cable cards and service says signal is perfect. Give up or keep trying?


I have same problem in Manhattan with Spectrum. I tries 6dB and 10dB attenuators (had from years ago with old Tivo) - did not help. Ch2 also has same problem, maybe others I have not watched. Tivo tech said 4-tuner machine is "more sensitive" than 2-tuner Premier, also suggested attenuators, which has not worked.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

Skanter123 said:


> I have same problem in Manhattan with Spectrum. I tries 6dB and 10dB attenuators (had from years ago with old Tivo) - did not help. Ch2 also has same problem, maybe others I have not watched. Tivo tech said 4-tuner machine is "more sensitive" than 2-tuner Premier, also suggested attenuators, which has not worked.


So have you gone back to TIVO support and said "your proposed solution to fix the problem by attenuating the signal did not help so now what should I do?" Did your attempts at attenuating signal bring you into the so called 34DB SNR sweet spot? Some claim that this helps. https://www.amazon.com/TiVo-Authori...01EKCL1U6/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8.


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## Skanter123 (Feb 28, 2015)

hankuro said:


> So have you gone back to TIVO support and said "your proposed solution to fix the problem by attenuating the signal did not help so now what should I do?"
> 
> Did your attempts at attenuating signal bring you into the so called 34DB SNR sweet spot?
> 
> Some claim that this helps. https://www.amazon.com/TiVo-Authori...01EKCL1U6/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8.


No, I have not had time to continually call Tivo tech support. I just spent countless hours on the phone with them diagnosing a defective Bolt and getting a replacement, then more hours with Spectrum getting the cable card to work. I do have other things to do.

OK, I will order and give PEF filter a try - thanks.


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## DVRanger (Nov 28, 2017)

hankuro said:


> I'm starting same process here on Long Island. Bolt+ and Bolt both pixelate randomly on upper channels. Premiere and other previous TiVos did not. I rented Optimum STB and picture is perfect with 0 pixelation. Ran diagnostics with TIVO support and they claim my SNR (signal to noise ratio) is too high on some channels. It varied from 34-39. They said I have to get Optimum to come to install 6 or 8DB attenuators and that will fix the problem. I just have to go through this process but I've already tried multiple cable cards and service says signal is perfect. Give up or keep trying?


I tried literally everything and there was no getting it to work with my cable signal. My main advice is dont let it go past 30 days if you cant get it to work if you bought the device from tivo as they will not be flexible, give up before the window expires.

Also it is true if you are going up in tuners, like 2 > 4 , it may become a problem with your signal. The optimum dvr only has 1 tuner since its cloud DVR and the signal gets additionally split inside the tivo for each tuner it has - these addtional splits can push a borderline signal into unusable territory..

If you dont have the POE filter linked above it can help but only if you are using MOCA, if not using MOCA it wont do anything.

Again be sure to return the tivo within return period if not successful.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

hankuro said:


> Ran diagnostics with TIVO support and they claim my SNR (signal to noise ratio) is too high on some channels. It varied from 34-39. They said I have to get Optimum to come to install 6 or 8DB attenuators and that will fix the problem.


Comcast here, I had been seeing some pixelation. Comcast tech came out, said my signal levels were fine. I noticed that the TiVo reported my signal levels were all 100% (which means they can be 100, 110, 120...who knows.) SNR was low to mid 40's.

I bought a package of various attenuators and installed a 12 dB model. Now my TiVo reports signal levels of 88% to 98%, SNR of 34 to 38 dB. The picture quality is unchanged, the pixelation problem "seems" to be better...though I still see a bit...maybe two or three times in an evening of viewing? All in all, it seems better...so I'm still running the 12 dB attenuator.

Attenuators on Amazon mostly run about $5 or $6 each. I found a source that sells the same units for about $1.25 each...though shipping took 7 to 8 days. That's a long time when you're used to Amazon Prime shipping.

You may not have any attenuators laying around, but you may have a few splitters. I tested my signal level using 3 or 4 splitters in a row. Each splitter dropped the signal 3.5 or 7 dB...depending on which "out" port I used. Quick and easy way to test your system with a lower signal level.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

DVRanger said:


> If you dont have the POE filter linked above it can help but only if you are using MOCA, if not using MOCA it wont do anything.


I had a Comcast tech out recently to check my signal levels. He replaced a few cable ends and installed a new splitter. As he finished, he installed a POE filter. I told him I don't use MOCA, my system was all ethernet. He said I did use MOCA, on the Comcast side. And their current policy is to install a POE filter on any property they visit that does not have one.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

DVRanger said:


> I tried literally everything and there was no getting it to work with my cable signal. My main advice is dont let it go past 30 days if you cant get it to work if you bought the device from tivo as they will not be flexible, give up before the window expires.
> 
> Also it is true if you are going up in tuners, like 2 > 4 , it may become a problem with your signal. The optimum dvr only has 1 tuner since its cloud DVR and the signal gets additionally split inside the tivo for each tuner it has - these addtional splits can push a borderline signal into unusable territory..
> 
> ...


DV - your comments are most sobering and have the ring of truth ... unlike TIVO tech support. I've had my Bolts for 6 months so no return is possible. And I've loved my TIVO's since their beginning. Ironically I only recently trashed (recycled) my Premiere boxes which worked perfectly. I went for the free lifetime transfer promotion and new tech. I really don't even need 6 tuners.

I'm sure TIVO will says that their Bolts work fine with other providers/customers so it must be an Optimum/my house issue. And Optimum will says that the signal is perfect and our box works perfectly so it's TIVO. So what's a videophile enthusiast to do after going through, what you say will be, the futile process of getting Optimum here (again) installing attenuators, calling back TIVO tech (Manila) and having them run through their script (again) and getting increasingly frustrated.

Try FIOS and see if their system works any better with TIVO?

Reduce Optimum to the most basic package possible and stream everything else?

Give up and go to Altice One and throw away a $2,000 investment in TIVO boxes and lifetime subs?


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

DeltaOne said:


> I bought a package of various attenuators and installed a 12 dB model. Now my TiVo reports signal levels of 88% to 98%, SNR of 34 to 38 dB. The picture quality is unchanged, the pixelation problem "seems" to be better...though I still see a bit...maybe two or three times in an evening of viewing? All in all, it seems better...so I'm still running the 12 dB attenuator.


 Your "new" levels are exactly where mine are now and, per TIVO tech, the cause of my intermittent pixelation. Per them, anything over 34DB will be a problem. Maybe you need even more attenuation?

My pixelation seems to vary with time of day unless I just notice it more because I watch at night. Definitely worse on some channels than others. Usually a pixelated horizontal line every 3-5 min or so and sometimes worse and actual full picture break up.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Just curious about your errors. Much has been posted on Signal and SNR, but nothing on RS Corrected and RS Uncorrected. Are those always zero? BTW, those two items are updated in real time.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

hankuro said:


> Your "new" levels are exactly where mine are now and, per TIVO tech, the cause of my intermittent pixelation. Per them, anything over 34DB will be a problem. Maybe you need even more attenuation?


Perhaps. It's easy enough to test. I'll give it a try.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

JoeKustra said:


> Just curious about your errors. Much has been posted on Signal and SNR, but nothing on RS Corrected and RS Uncorrected. Are those always zero? BTW, those two items are updated in real time.


I'd have to run diagnostics on the 6 tuner test again to be sure, but I think they were all 0-0 except on 1 or 2 of the 6 tuners. Should they always be 0-0 on all tuners?


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

DeltaOne said:


> Perhaps. It's easy enough to test. I'll give it a try.


Per DVRanger lowering SNR to TIVO gold standard 34DB won't do anything to help intermittent pixelation, but here's hoping it does.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hankuro said:


> I'd have to run diagnostics on the 6 tuner test again to be sure, but I think they were all 0-0 except on 1 or 2 of the 6 tuners. Should they always be 0-0 on all tuners?


Well, they should be zero but nothing is perfect. If you change channel that tuner's numbers will be reset to zero. In other words they count errors on the frequency or channel. I had the connector on my tap outside replaced last week. I was getting thousands of errors per day. During the time it was disconnected I received 50 billion errors.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

JoeKustra said:


> Well, they should be zero but nothing is perfect. If you change channel that tuner's numbers will be reset to zero. In other words they count errors on the frequency or channel. I had the connector on my tap outside replaced last week. I was getting thousands of errors per day. During the time it was disconnected I received 50 billion errors.


1 of 6 tuners had numbers like 79 and 250 for RS Corrected Incorrected. The others were all 0-0. I have no idea what that means.

This whole process of lowering my reception strength and SNR seems so counterintuitive. But I put in a splitter to act as attenuators (-3.5db) and SNR did go down as well as signal strength. On some tuners/channels down to 30db and others still up at 39 dB. TIVO "tech support" says they should be no more than 34DB but attenuation does not affect all tuners equally so I'm ranging from 72% 30 dB to 100% 39 dB.

So my question is, in an effort to get all tuners to 34DB or lower, how low can signal strength and SNR go without affecting the picture quality?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hankuro said:


> 1 of 6 tuners had numbers like 79 and 250 for RS Corrected Incorrected. The others were all 0-0. I have no idea what that means.


If all tuners were on the same channel for the same amount of time, it sounds like a tuner problem. Those counters reset when you change channels.

The goal is 90% and something near 36dB. Close is ok. 100% is ok if it is 100% and not higher since you can overload the tuner and get blocking errors. Sometimes compromise is needed. Different numbers on different channels (frequencies) is not abnormal. The cable feed may use different equipment for the bands, which correspond to the VHF and UHF bands. Once I mapped the channels and their frequencies. Very boring. But all my HD cable broadcast channels occupy a single band and have similar signal levels.

More than signal and SNR affect your picture. There is no magic number.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

JoeKustra said:


> If all tuners were on the same channel for the same amount of time, it sounds like a tuner problem. Those counters reset when you change channels.
> 
> The goal is 72% and something near 36dB. Close is ok. 100% is ok if it is 100% and not higher since you can overload the tuner and get blocking errors. Sometimes compromise is needed. Different numbers on different channels (frequencies) is not abnormal. The cable feed may use different equipment for the bands, which correspond to the VHF and UHF bands. Once I mapped the channels and their frequencies. Very boring. But all my HD cable broadcast channels occupy a single band and have similar signal levels.
> 
> More than signal and SNR affect your picture. There is no magic number.


Thanks Joe your comments always helpful.

Diagnostics label the Bolt+ 6 tuners as 0 - 5. So if RS Corrected/Uncorrected numbers other than 0-0 always appear on Tuner 4 it may mean that this single tuner is bad? I wish there was a way to know which tuner I am watching and then, if there are pixelation issues, to change tuner while watching the same channel.

Based on what you are saying, I will continue to attenuate until all channels are 36db or lower (TIVO tech says 34db but I'll go with your number), even if some are well under 30 dB. It sounds like what you are saying is that higher numbers can cause issues but lower numbers do not.

Question: when you put a 1 in 2 out splitter in line does something have to be actually connected to the other outs to attentuate the signal? Does a cable have to be connected? Or does the splitter automatically attenuate with nothing else connected?

Also, TIVO tech specifically said I must use an attenuator to lower the signal and not splitters. They also said Optimum must come to my house to do this. Is either comment correct?

Most appreciative.

Jerry


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

hankuro said:


> I wish there was a way to know which tuner I am watching and then, if there are pixelation issues, to change tuner while watching the same channel.
> 
> Question: when you put a 1 in 2 out splitter in line does something have to be actually connected to the other outs to attentuate the signal? Does a cable have to be connected? Or does the splitter automatically attenuate with nothing else connected?
> 
> Also, TIVO tech specifically said I must use an attenuator to lower the signal and not splitters. They also said Optimum must come to my house to do this. Is either comment correct?


The diagnostics page, where the tuners are numbered zero through five, does tell you which channel the tuner is on. The channel number is just below the tuner number. I think you may be asking a different question though.

As for using splitters to test attenuation...you do not have to connect anything to the other outlet ports. Before buying attenuators I used splitters. I'd note the signal strength and dB ratings...add a splitter...check again...rinse and repeat.

As for using attenuators instead of splitters...sure. But a quick 'n dirty test using splitters works fine. At least it did for me.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

DeltaOne said:


> The diagnostics page, where the tuners are numbered zero through five, does tell you which channel the tuner is on. The channel number is just below the tuner number. I think you may be asking a different question though.
> 
> As for using splitters to test attenuation...you do not have to connect anything to the other outlet ports. Before buying attenuators I used splitters. I'd note the signal strength and dB ratings...add a splitter...check again...rinse and repeat.
> 
> As for using attenuators instead of splitters...sure. But a quick 'n dirty test using splitters works fine. At least it did for me.


Delta One - you mentioned previously that you thought your pixelation incidence improved after lowering signal strength with splitters. Do you still think this is true? Have your tried yet to lower signal further with more splitters?

Trying to determine if this whole lowering SNR exercise gets actual results or if TIVO help is just giving us all busy work to stop us from annoying them.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hankuro said:


> Thanks Joe your comments always helpful.
> Diagnostics label the Bolt+ 6 tuners as 0 - 5. So if RS Corrected/Uncorrected numbers other than 0-0 always appear on Tuner 4 it may mean that this single tuner is bad? I wish there was a way to know which tuner I am watching and then, if there are pixelation issues, to change tuner while watching the same channel.
> Based on what you are saying, I will continue to attenuate until all channels are 36db or lower (TIVO tech says 34db but I'll go with your number), even if some are well under 30 dB. It sounds like what you are saying is that higher numbers can cause issues but lower numbers do not.
> Question: when you put a 1 in 2 out splitter in line does something have to be actually connected to the other outs to attentuate the signal? Does a cable have to be connected? Or does the splitter automatically attenuate with nothing else connected?
> ...


Please don't obsess over that SNR. Get the signal % close and the SNR should follow. A 1 to 2 splitter is a passive device that splits the signal in half for each leg. Don't listen to TiVo's techs. They may never have seen a TiVo. I have a BIG correction to make. I said 72% is the goal. That's for OTA. A 6-tuner TiVo is cable only. The magic number is 90% for cable.

I see the tuner question was answered. I spend too much time inside my TiVo. But it helps to note the tuner, channel, frequency and program number along with its signal level & SNR. That way when something changes you have a baseline to compare with.

As for playing with signal levels. An attenuator is just an in-line device to reduce the signal. You can get one on Amazon. A variable attenuator is more expensive. Some use a splitter to lower the signal. They are cheaper.

Here's my suggestion. You are watching real time TV and there is noise or blocking errors. Go to diagnostics and check the numbers for that channel. Any errors? If no errors the problem may not be on your end, but on the signal sent from your cable feed. I was watching TV while a storm from passed. My feed is 20 miles NE of my location. When it passed their dishes, I had picture and audio issues but no errors. I looked because I just had my drop's connector replaced. I have it replaced every year.

One more item. You can't select a tuner exactly. The dynamic tuner allocation means TiVo manages your tuners and does it quite well. You can put them all on the same channel with a restart or by running the Channel/Signal Strength Cable diagnostic. When changing channels, you will not get a new tuner on a channel if there is a tuner on that channel. One way to see if you are on a tuner that has been on a channel for a while is to hit Play. You see the buffer, which starts empty on a new channel.

Bottom line. Get the signal right first. If the SNR is very low, that's different issue.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

hankuro said:


> Delta One - you mentioned previously that you thought your pixelation incidence improved after lowering signal strength with splitters. Do you still think this is true? Have your tried yet to lower signal further with more splitters?


Yes, I think adding one 12 dB attenuator helped my pixelation problem. It's not gone, but I'd say it's 90% better.

It's interesting that Joe, above, says 72% is the goal. The one 12 dB attenuator has me at 88% to 98%.

I plan on adding another attenuator once I log off here...I'll see if that changes anything.

And I agree with Joe...there is no magic number...and that one might never get it "perfect." Too many variables. Last night, before falling asleep, we had HGTV on in the bedroom. LOTS of pixelation. But being on a Mini, I could not check the Diagnostics page. Pixelation was so bad I switched to the SD channel for a bit...but even it was pixelated. Ten or 15 minutes later...pixelation was gone. To me...that was a Comcast problem.

ADDED LATER...Joe corrected himself...72% for OTA, 90% for cable. Most of my channels are close to 100%...so I will add an attenuator this morning and see what that does.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

DeltaOne said:


> It's interesting that Joe, above, says 72% is the goal. The one 12 dB attenuator has me at 88% to 98%.


My bad.  I reposted. 90% is for cable.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> My bad.  I reposted. 90% is for cable.


No problem...I saw it...and "edited" my post.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hankuro said:


> Thanks Joe your comments always helpful.
> Jerry


One thing I need to mention. I have a basic Roamio. It has diagnostics like a Bolt. A Bolt+ is like a Roamio Plus or Pro. In other words, I can't speak from personal experience about your hardware.

One thing a Bolt and Roamio have in common: neither displays RS Corrected errors. They may be counted, but the display is always zero. TiVo Ticket: 07926091.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> One thing a Bolt and Roamio have in common: neither displays RS Corrected errors. They may be counted, but the display is always zero. TiVo Ticket: 07926091.


My Roamio Plus shows both RS Corrected and RS Uncorrected. I can see the numbers changing when I'm on the Diagnostics page.

I've never studied those numbers and don't understand what they're telling me.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

hankuro said:


> Trying to determine if this whole lowering SNR exercise gets actual results or if TIVO help is just giving us all busy work to stop us from annoying them.


I added more attenuation. For the last few weeks I've been running a 12 dB attenuator and getting signal strength levels of 88% to 98%, dB of 32 to 36.

Just now I added an 8 dB attenuator (for a total of 20 dB). Signal strength varies from 70% to 80%, dB from 28 to 32.

A quick check of the channels we watch...and picture quality seems fine. I'll be watching PQ closely and will report back here.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

DeltaOne said:


> My Roamio Plus shows both RS Corrected and RS Uncorrected. I can see the numbers changing when I'm on the Diagnostics page.
> I've never studied those numbers and don't understand what they're telling me.


I have a link to abbreviation, but here's the Wiki page -> Reed-Solomon error correction - Wikipedia

They show a count of errors that have been found. Some are corrected and some are too bad to be fixed. They are in real time as you saw, and they can go very high. I had 50 billion when my tap was changed. I have a 2-tuner Premiere. It counts both types of errors. It doesn't use AGC.


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## Time_Lord (Jun 4, 2012)

I'm a little confused by the signal strength and SNR numbers. First keep in mind, I'm using FiOS and I am not having any pixelation issues and my error counts are 0 for both correctable and uncorrectable errors.

Looking at my Bolt, Bolt+, and my Roamio+ the signal strengths vary from 95% to 100% depending upon the channel I'm tuned to, in addition my SNR values range from 39 to 41dB. Which brings me back to the "recommended" signal strength and SNR numbers. I understand not wanting too "hot" of a signal, you can cause over modulation issues, just think of listening to music with the volume all the way up, it gets distorted. Secondly my understanding is that SNR is actually the more important of the two values and with SNR the value cannot be too high and thus the higher the number the better, I seem to recall from a friend that used to be in the industry that 32dB was bare minimum but they preferred to see at least 34dB.

So I'm not doubting the evidence that many people have found that lowering the signal strength reduces pixelization, rather I'm questioning why I am not seeing the pixelization issues with such a high signal strength. My only guess is that if you have a borderline SNR value you can actually cause your SNR value to go down by inducing "distortion" by over modulating your signal into the TiVO, putting an attenuator on the line will lower the signal strength but will hopefully keep the SNR where it is.

So am I on the mark? or am I just blowing.....

-TL


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

DeltaOne said:


> I added more attenuation. For the last few weeks I've been running a 12 dB attenuator and getting signal strength levels of 88% to 98%, dB of 32 to 36.
> 
> Just now I added an 8 dB attenuator (for a total of 20 dB). Signal strength varies from 70% to 80%, dB from 28 to 32.
> 
> A quick check of the channels we watch...and picture quality seems fine. I'll be watching PQ closely and will report back here.


I installed 2 in line splitters for a total of 7db attenuation. My resulting signal strength and SNR reading are literally identical to those you report. PQ seems the same and IT IS POSSIBLE that I'm getting fewer pixelation incidents. Watched 1 hour of CNN ("The Two Faces of Kim Jong Un" - excellent) with 3 small very quick pixelation incidents. I could live with that. But only time will tell if this is a real improvement since my issues tend to be random and unpredictable.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

Time_Lord said:


> I'm a little confused by the signal strength and SNR numbers. First keep in mind, I'm using FiOS and I am not having any pixelation issues and my error counts are 0 for both correctable and uncorrectable errors.
> 
> Looking at my Bolt, Bolt+, and my Roamio+ the signal strengths vary from 95% to 100% depending upon the channel I'm tuned to, in addition my SNR values range from 39 to 41dB. Which brings me back to the "recommended" signal strength and SNR numbers. I understand not wanting too "hot" of a signal, you can cause over modulation issues, just think of listening to music with the volume all the way up, it gets distorted. Secondly my understanding is that SNR is actually the more important of the two values and with SNR the value cannot be too high and thus the higher the number the better, I seem to recall from a friend that used to be in the industry that 32dB was bare minimum but they preferred to see at least 34dB.
> 
> ...


Installing attenuators lowered both my signal strength and SNR consistently. The fact that your signal strength and SNR are higher than TIVO recommends and yet you have a perfect picture with no pixelation means that there are more variables than I understand and makes the process we are attempting even sketchier.

However I don't really care about the science behind all of this, I'm taking some borderline TIVO tech support suggestion and trial and erroring my way to a better picture - hopefully. If the picture improves I'm done looking a the diagnostics page forever.

Meanwhile, you are a lucky man!


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

hankuro said:


> I installed 2 in line splitters for a total of 7db attenuation. My resulting signal strength and SNR reading are literally identical to those you report. PQ seems the same and IT IS POSSIBLE that I'm getting fewer pixelation incidents.


Nice.

In my case, around dinner time yesterday, I noticed some pixelation. I decided the 70 to 80% signal strength was too low. I removed the just-added 8 dB attenuator, leaving me at the -12 dB I'd been running for the last month.

Then...watching our Sunday night shows...awful pixelation. Maybe the worst I've ever seen on my Comcast feed. Saw pixelation on HBO, Discovery and the Food Network. I don't know if the signal is too hot now or if Comcast was just having a bad night. I decided to wait until today and decide if I need to make any changes.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

Time_Lord said:


> So I'm not doubting the evidence that many people have found that lowering the signal strength reduces pixelization, rather I'm questioning why I am not seeing the pixelization issues with such a high signal strength. My only guess is that if you have a borderline SNR value you can actually cause your SNR value to go down by inducing "distortion" by over modulating your signal into the TiVO, putting an attenuator on the line will lower the signal strength but will hopefully keep the SNR where it is.


As noted by hankuro, adding attenuation lowers both the signal strength and SNR.

You're not seeing any problems, so the best bet may be to just ignore the Diagnostics page. What led me to the Diagnostics page was seeing some pixelation/blocking and wondering if my signal was too hot.

As I noted in my last post, last night I had awful pixelation. I may remove all attenuation this morning and see what happens.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

DeltaOne said:


> Nice.
> 
> In my case, around dinner time yesterday, I noticed some pixelation. I decided the 70 to 80% signal strength was too low. I removed the just-added 8 dB attenuator, leaving me at the -12 dB I'd been running for the last month.
> 
> Then...watching our Sunday night shows...awful pixelation. Maybe the worst I've ever seen on my Comcast feed. Saw pixelation on HBO, Discovery and the Food Network. I don't know if the signal is too hot now or if Comcast was just having a bad night. I decided to wait until today and decide if I need to make any changes.


That is very frustrating and makes me think that DVRanger is right that the only solution to this is to return our Bolts (which is no longer an option for me). Or do I remember that you also have Roamio? Maybe put a -3.5db splitter in line in addition to your existing -12db attenuator? Crap shoot!


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

DeltaOne said:


> As noted by hankuro, adding attenuation lowers both the signal strength and SNR.
> 
> You're not seeing any problems, so the best bet may be to just ignore the Diagnostics page. What led me to the Diagnostics page was seeing some pixelation/blocking and wondering if my signal was too hot.
> 
> As I noted in my last post, last night I had awful pixelation. I may remove all attenuation this morning and see what happens.


I don't know about you, but this is gut punch frustrating on so many levels.

1. I probably have $50,000 invested in my HT system including high end 4K 75" TV, 4K projection system including 2 drop down screens for TV or widescreen Movie viewing (130"), 4K Oppo, full Atmos, etc. and yet stupid me can't watch TV with a non-pixelated picture.

2. I had a perfectly working Premiere that I got rid of to have this fabulous Bolt+.

3. One of the best part of owning TIVO used to be the incredible tech support and now we have outsourced people on the other side of the planet reading from a script - very politely - and very unhelpfully.

4. I have other things to do and don't want to spend my life experimenting with attenuators and looking at Diagnostics.

On the other hand, I appreciate the people in this forum because it helps me feel not alone in this and it's great to talk to people who try to help. Also, I'm not a Syrian refugee trying to escape with my family from a genocidal dictator.


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## Time_Lord (Jun 4, 2012)

My understanding of signal strength and SNR is can be simply expressed as:
Signal Strength - How loud you're yelling at me
SNR - how clearly I hear your yelling

so yes they are tied together, the higher the SNR number the better, but if you are getting a "muffled" signal you have other problems.

This also goes back to amplifiers, if you have a weak signal and install an amplifier, you are not only amplifying the signal but the noise as well, plus all amplifiers add some of their own noise/distortion.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

hankuro said:


> Or do I remember that you also have Roamio? Maybe put a -3.5db splitter in line in addition to your existing -12db attenuator? Crap shoot!


Roamio Plus here. Adult son living here has a Bolt and hasn't seen any problems. He thinks I'm crazy for running the -12 dB attenuator.

All seems well this morning. I still have the -12 dB attenuator in place and I haven't seen any pixelation or blocking. Signal strength varies from 90 to 100%.

I guess, for now, I'll attribute last nights problems to a Comcast issue.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

hankuro said:


> I have other things to do and don't want to spend my life experimenting with attenuators and looking at Diagnostics.


I went back and re-read your post about Optimum and their STB working fine. I would only add a few suggestions:

1) check and replace any sketchy coax connectors
2) check each coax connection...unscrew / remove / insert / tighten a few times. I know this sounds like hocus/pocus stuff...but twice in the last five years I've seen this process help solve a problem here. I start at the street connection (they don't lock the cable pedestals here). I check every connector along the way, ending with the coax connector on the rear panel of my Roamio. I attribute this helping to breaking/removing oxidation on the thin cable conductor. 
3) can you simplify your coax wiring in any way?
4) I'm guessing you've done this...but have your cable company tech check the line levels at each connection along the way?

Getting a good tech to come out helps...the last Comcast tech that I had here didn't have another appointment for a few hours...he was in no hurry. We checked everything. He said my line was a little low "on the low band" but otherwise okay. Getting a good tech is luck of the draw, and I lucked out that day.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

DeltaOne said:


> I went back and re-read your post about Optimum and their STB working fine. I would only add a few suggestions:
> 
> 1) check and replace any sketchy coax connectors
> 2) check each coax connection...unscrew / remove / insert / tighten a few times. I know this sounds like hocus/pocus stuff...but twice in the last five years I've seen this process help solve a problem here. I start at the street connection (they don't lock the cable pedestals here). I check every connector along the way, ending with the coax connector on the rear panel of my Roamio. I attribute this helping to breaking/removing oxidation on the thin cable conductor.
> ...


All great advice. Here is where I am on this journey now.

- Attenuated signal strength now ranges from 70-90%. SNR from 28-35.

- RS Corrected/Uncorrected has jumped dramatically from 0-0 to many thousands on multiple channels.

- Picture Quality has remained excellent.

- Pixelation remains but less frequently and of shorter duration with no major picture break-ups (so far).

Still not happy because any pixelation incident is disruptive to me. And the dramatic jump in RS can't be a good thing although if RS was a billion but picture was good, I'd be happy.

Anyone have thought on why RS jumped with lower signal strength and SNR?


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

hankuro said:


> - Attenuated signal strength now ranges from 70-90%. SNR from 28-35.
> - RS Corrected/Uncorrected has jumped dramatically from 0-0 to many thousands on multiple channels.
> - Picture Quality has remained excellent.
> - Pixelation remains but less frequently and of shorter duration with no major picture break-ups (so far).
> ...


Only one short incident of pixelation last night for me. I was viewing Discovery, I jumped in to the diagnostics page and the signal strength was 98%. Does that mean 98% is too hot? Dunno. My plan for now is to note the signal strength when I see pixelation, see if there is a pattern.

Like you I see many thousands of corrected and uncorrected RS errors. I've never checked this area before so I don't know if it's a recent change or not.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hankuro said:


> Anyone have thought on why RS jumped with lower signal strength and SNR?


While I can't explain that, I would not overlook other factors. One that comes to mind is weather. If you change channels, they will be reset to zero. Check them once a day and look for a pattern. My modem has 24 downstream channels. One channel always has 20 or so errors per day. I found out it's probably due to cell phones. My modem's signal levels dropped in half a few months ago when my feed changed some equipment. The errors stayed the same.


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

DeltaOne said:


> Only one short incident of pixelation last night for me. I was viewing Discovery, I jumped in to the diagnostics page and the signal strength was 98%. Does that mean 98% is too hot? Dunno. My plan for now is to note the signal strength when I see pixelation, see if there is a pattern.
> 
> Like you I see many thousands of corrected and uncorrected RS errors. I've never checked this area before so I don't know if it's a recent change or not.


Partial good news. With 7db attenuation (2 x -3.5db splitters) my pixelation issue has definitely improved. I've watched enough to say this confidently. However there still remains a reduced incidence of pixelation. Signal Strength now 72-90 - SNR 28-36 dB. Lots of RS errors. I think I will try an 8 dB attenuator and remove the 2 splitters to see if some further marginal improvement occurs.


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## Time_Lord (Jun 4, 2012)

keep one thing in mind, it is very bad practice to leave un-terminated ports open (splitter connections) as those ports will act as an antenna and introduce noise. There are 75ohm CoAX terminators available if you must have an unused splitter port.

A few things to be aware of with CoAX (and network cabling)
1) There is a minimum bend radius adhere to it! It should be provided by the manufacturer (if unknown the rule of thumb is 4x the cable diameter)
2) do not have any un-terminated coax connections, wires, etc as this only introduces noise
3) make sure all your terminators (F Connectors for CoAX, RJ-45 for ethernet, etc) are properly affixed, no exposed braid/shield etc
4) try to avoid running parallel to and bundled with electrical wires, try crossing electrical wires at 90degrees or 12 inches away.

-TL


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## hankuro (Nov 7, 2009)

Time_Lord said:


> keep one thing in mind, it is very bad practice to leave un-terminated ports open (splitter connections) as those ports will act as an antenna and introduce noise. There are 75ohm CoAX terminators available if you must have an unused splitter port.
> 
> A few things to be aware of with CoAX (and network cabling)
> 1) There is a minimum bend radius adhere to it! It should be provided by the manufacturer (if unknown the rule of thumb is 4x the cable diameter)
> ...


Great advice. Thank you. All the more reason to go with single attenuator vs. multiple splitters with un-terminated ports.

Although I have to say that I have previously followed all these rules with a perfectly clean run and no cable bends and got a terribly pixelated signal. Now that I've installed multiple splitters with un-terminated ports, my signal is much improved.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

hankuro said:


> Now that I've installed multiple splitters with un-terminated ports, my signal is much improved.


Glad your situation is improving.

And to the OP, the idea of using splitters to test attenuation was just that...a short time test.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Modern day Ethernet networks do not require termination. Only ancient networks using hubs as concetrators, hardline, or coax (the latter two being restricted to 10Mbps network speeds tops) would noise be an issue.

Any noise introduced due to unterminated Ethernet runs are blocked at the switch port. Otherwise imagine the fun any reasonably large network (at say an office) might have. Those days are thankfully long gone (along with the token falling out of an unterminated port in a token ring network).


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## Time_Lord (Jun 4, 2012)

Worf said:


> Modern day Ethernet networks do not require termination. Only ancient networks using hubs as concetrators, hardline, or coax (the latter two being restricted to 10Mbps network speeds tops) would noise be an issue.


Didn't mean to say that UTP has a problem with unterminated connections, the comment was CoAX, but the bend radius information was for both.


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