# Where is Stream for Android???



## dave060863

TIVO guys, c'mon! I've been a loyal TIVO customer since 2000! I don't buy Apple products. Period. Ever. Help me and other friends of TIVO who don't buy Apple out here. Where's our Stream for Android?!


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## Davisadm

Sorry, if you "don't buy Apple products. Period", 
then you are out of luck, period.


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## dave060863

I'm sorry, did you think I was I talking to you? Your comment in not helpful and irrelevant. 

Question still stands, TIVO. I understand the need to attack the Apple market first, but it's been about a year now. We've been patient. You have the other half of the mobile market place waiting. Please advise.


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## Philmatic

dave060863 said:


> I understand the need to attack the Apple market first, but it's been about a year now. We've been patient. You have the other half of the mobile market place waiting. Please advise.


It's been 5 months since the stream hit the market. And "Other half of the mobile market place"? What are you talking about?

Look, I'm with you that TiVo needs to step it up and release Android and Windows 8 client, but the Android Tablet market is a tiny fraction compared to the iPad installed user base, so lets not get ahead of themselves.


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## PCurry57

Philmatic said:


> It's been 5 months since the stream hit the market. And "Other half of the mobile market place"? What are you talking about?
> 
> Look, I'm with you that TiVo needs to step it up and release Android and Windows 8 client, but the Android Tablet market is a tiny fraction compared to the iPad installed user base, so lets not get ahead of themselves.


:BUZZ: :buzz: :buzz: Wrong! Android actually world wide outsells iCrap! In 2012 Android outsold iCrap in the states even!


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## Dan203

PCurry57 said:


> :BUZZ: :buzz: :buzz: Wrong! Android actually world wide outsells iCrap! In 2012 Android outsold iCrap in the states even!


As a phone OS that is true, but the Stream is aimed mainly at tablets not phones.

I've explained this before but there is actually a technical reason for the Android delay. The Stream uses a technology called encrypted HLS. Apple invented that technology so it is supported on all iOS devices. However Android did not add support for encrypted HLS until v4. And the only mass market tablets that use Android v4+ are the Kindle Fire HD and the Nexus, both of which weren't even released until late last year. So until like August of last year there wasn't even an Android tablet on the market capable of using a Stream. And actual mass market adoption of those tablets didn't happen until the holidays. So there was really no substantial market for an Android version of the Stream until about 2 months ago.

That being said a TiVo employee confirmed via this forum that they started work on a Android version back in November. A 6 month development cycle is typical for these sorts of things so I'm guessing we're looking at an April release date for Android support. Perhaps during that cable show where they announced the Stream hardware last year?


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## button1066

PCurry57 said:


> :BUZZ: :buzz: :buzz: Wrong! Android actually world wide outsells iCrap! In 2012 Android outsold iCrap in the states even!


It is a sign of advanced wit and intelligence to substitute scatalogical words for the names of products. Probably the same intelligence that lead to you buying a second rate iPad knock off instead of the real thing (joke!)


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## Austin Bike

What if there is a technical/legal reason why it won't work?

While I know that many people want andriod support (and yes I have both tablets), if it isn't in market yet, there is probably a good reason. It's not like they wrote and and just never bothered to release it. There is a reason, but none of us knows, so this is probably not the right place to vent. I'd go to tivo instead.


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## compnurd

Austin Bike said:


> What if there is a technical/legal reason why it won't work?
> 
> While I know that many people want andriod support (and yes I have both tablets), if it isn't in market yet, there is probably a good reason. It's not like they wrote and and just never bothered to release it. There is a reason, but none of us knows, so this is probably not the right place to vent. I'd go to tivo instead.


Dan stated it above


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## aaronwt

button1066 said:


> It is a sign of advanced wit and intelligence to substitute scatalogical words for the names of products. Probably the same intelligence that lead to you buying a second rate iPad knock off instead of the real thing (joke!)


I realize it's a joke but I've used my friends iPads and iPhones before. There is no way I would want to use that over the Android tablets or Android phones I've owned. But to each their own. Everyone has their own preferences.


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## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> ... And the only mass market tablets that use Android v4+ are the Kindle Fire HD and the Nexus, both of which weren't even released until late last year. So until like August of last year there wasn't even an Android tablet on the market capable of using a Stream. ...


Really? I think you might ask Samsung if they consider their tablets to be mass market or not. Oh and by the way my Samsung tablet came with Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich and I have had it since last May.


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## NAMLOOT

I bought an iPad mini just so I could use the stream. I love the stream, but haven't been overly wowed with the iPad. Both operating systems boil down to preference, pricing, and content. A lot of the apps are cleaner and nicer on iOS, but performance wise, my wife's Nexus performs as well as the iPad.

In terms of the stream, we have young kids and can now watch our non-kid shows with them in the room. Headphone splitter and we can even watch together while they watch the big TV. Greatest TV invention IMO since you in essence get a roaming TV in your house. 

I would think that TiVo could make a lot of money putting the streaming on Android, so it will happen. Netflix took forever on Android too.


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## atmuscarella

I was never really that interested in the Stream so at this point I will likely just wait and see if they get a new DVR out the door that has the Stream functionality built into it. I am sure others will jump as soon as the software is available but the longer they take the more people will think like I do.


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## PCurry57

button1066 said:


> It is a sign of advanced wit and intelligence to substitute scatalogical words for the names of products. Probably the same intelligence that lead to you buying a second rate iPad knock off instead of the real thing (joke!)


Second Rate LOL.

IOS is a second rate OS (incomplete) the rapid iCrap rollout of newer flavors in order to keep up with Android are evidence. I would never buy any iCrap, give me one, no I'd sell it. The entire Apple lock you into their market is anti-competitive. This was a big part of wht Apple never overtook the PC market. Mac's with their ZERO slot closed box design; not easily extensable with after market hardware add-on's forcing you to dole out ever increasing sums of cash for an entire new system.


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## atmuscarella

PCurry57 said:


> Second Rate LOL.
> 
> IOS is a second rate OS (incomplete) the rapid iCrap rollout of newer flavors in order to keep up with Android are evidence. I would never buy any iCrap, give me one, no I'd sell it. The entire Apple lock you into their market is anti-competitive. This was a big part of wht Apple never overtook the PC market. Mac's with their ZERO slot closed box design; not easily extensable with after market hardware add-on's forcing you to dole out ever increasing sums of cash for an entire new system.


That is the way computing is heading in general regardless of operating system. Sealed non-upgradable & hardly repairable devices. People seem to like the cell phone model of getting new hardware every 2 years - and so do the hardware manufactures.


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## m_jonis

I thought I saw a Dish network ad on TV that they can stream to Android and iOS. Maybe time to switch?


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## aadam101

m_jonis said:


> I thought I saw a Dish network ad on TV that they can stream to Android and iOS. Maybe time to switch?


If it does what you want it to then you should switch.


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## atmuscarella

m_jonis said:


> I thought I saw a Dish network ad on TV that they can stream to Android and iOS. Maybe time to switch?


For most people picking a pay TV provider also involves dealing with High speed Internet and perhaps a home phone. In my opinion normally Dish is a better value than cable when one just considers the Pay TV part, but it gets more complicated when you also look at high speed Internet and perhaps home phone.


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## Dan203

atmuscarella said:


> Really? I think you might ask Samsung if they consider their tablets to be mass market or not. Oh and by the way my Samsung tablet came with Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich and I have had it since last May.


As of Q3 of last year Samsung only had ~18% of the total tablet market, and only some of their tablets had Android 4.0+. At the same time iOS had over 50% of the market and all of their devices supported HLS. And those are world wide numbers. In the US the numbers skew even more in Apple's favor. And since the Stream is a US only device that's relevant.

You have to remember there is a lag between development and release of this stuff. If you're developing a product for release in September of 2012 you likely started planning development for that device at least a year earlier. At that time Androids market share in the tablet space was tiny, and Android 4.0 was still brand new and not used on much of anything. And even on the day of release sales of Android 4.0 devices were still relatively small and they probably wanted to hold back development to see how well the device itself actually sold. By the holiday season they were able to see the Stream was a success and sales of Android 4.0 tablets were picking up so they announced, in November, that they started development of an Android app for the Stream. Unfortunately these things take time so it may be 6 months or so before it actually hits the market. If it's still not out by April/May then you have every right to be upset.


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## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> ...If it's still not out by April/May then you have every right to be upset.


I am not upset, personally all TiVo has done is likely save me from buying a Stream. I just think it was bad business. They are going to spend the same amount of money to develop the software but successfully pissed lots of people off. They really need to stop doing that.


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## Dan203

I've done work for TiVo in the past. Granted it was like 7 years ago, but at the time they had a very limited budget for secondary projects like this. If that's still the case then it may be that they only had the budget to develop for one platform for launch so they chose the more popular one. It may seem like bad business, but TiVo is a relatively small company that still rarely turns a profit. If they didn't have budgets they'd likely go out of business completely.


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## magnus

atmuscarella said:


> That is the way computing is heading in general regardless of operating system. Sealed non-upgradable & hardly repairable devices. People seem to like the cell phone model of getting new hardware every 2 years - and so do the hardware manufactures.


Yep, the Nexus 7 is non-upgrade able. No big deal, just buy the max size if you want it.


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## button1066

PCurry57 said:


> Second Rate LOL.
> 
> IOS is a second rate OS (incomplete) the rapid iCrap rollout of newer flavors in order to keep up with Android are evidence. I would never buy any iCrap, give me one, no I'd sell it. The entire Apple lock you into their market is anti-competitive. This was a big part of wht Apple never overtook the PC market. Mac's with their ZERO slot closed box design; not easily extensable with after market hardware add-on's forcing you to dole out ever increasing sums of cash for an entire new system.


So sorry you can't afford nice things but crying about it makes you look ridiculous. How anyone can be so bitter over consumer products is laughable.


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## magnus

button1066 said:


> So sorry you can't afford nice things but crying about it makes you look ridiculous. How anyone can be so bitter over consumer products is laughable.


Yep their quote shows just how little the know about Apple products today. I have and Android and have iOS products. So, I can truly make the comparisons for myself. I like them both for different reasons.


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## Austin Bike

atmuscarella said:


> I am not upset, personally all TiVo has done is likely save me from buying a Stream. I just think it was bad business. They are going to spend the same amount of money to develop the software but successfully pissed lots of people off. They really need to stop doing that.


But the point is that if the are satisfying the bulk of the market and pissing off a minority, then it was a good business decision. In my house there are 3 iPads and one android. That reflect the general market for the most part. They are servicing the largest part of the market which is what they are supposed to do.


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## atmuscarella

Austin Bike said:


> But the point is that if the are satisfying the bulk of the market and pissing off a minority, then it was a good business decision. In my house there are 3 iPads and one android. That reflect the general market for the most part. They are servicing the largest part of the market which is what they are supposed to do.


What TiVo is supposed to do is make money for their share holders and pissing off customers doesn't do that.

But I think people are still living in 2011 as of 9/2012 Android was estimated to have 48% of the installed tablet base in the US. Many of those Android tablets were not running android 4.0 or higher needed for the stream but the hand writing was clear that Android tablets where not some niche player.

If they never decided to develop for Android fine hopefully they would have done the math correctly and decided it would not be profitable.

However in this case they are now going to develop for Android so they will be spending the same or more money as if they had made that decision 3 or even 6 months earlier. There maybe some minor benefit to the last quarterly report by having the development costs moved into the future but TiVo has plenty of cash and will be ending up having expenditures be in the same place within 1 quarter. So the only question becomes what is the impact of the delay on sales. Maybe nothing or maybe something, no way to know. But likely some people will be put off by the delay and never buy and other people like me will just decide to wait and see what the next DVR brings to the table.


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## aaronwt

Yes, at this point I might as well wait for a Series 5 and see if the stream capabilities are built in. Maybe, maybe not. Assuming Android support comes before the next NFL season starts, I'll make a decision then. Hopefully by then we will know if/when a Series 5 will be released.


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## Dan203

Someone posted in another thread that TiVo engineering responded to a tweet and said an Android update will be coming in a couple of weeks. No specific mention of whether or not it'll support the Stream but since they have the Android team working on something it's possible.


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## jrtroo

atmuscarella said:


> However in this case they are now going to develop for Android so they will be spending the same or more money as if they had made that decision 3 or even 6 months earlier.


I believe we were told in the fall that an android app for Stream was a future product. So, that decision was made, costs are being incurred, and we are just waiting on the result.


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## Austin Bike

For those asking why Apple support was so easy and android support is more difficult:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57...rs-challenged-by-number-of-different-devices/

In order to support 90% of the android market they would need to support 331 devices.

Now, on the apple side, its 3-4 ipads and 2-3 phones.

Huge difference from a coding and support standpoint.

Even if android is a bigger addressable market, the cost to go after it is significantly higher because of the fractured nature of the android market.

In addition to those 331 devices, thing about how many versions of the OS that you need to support.

And, in the "pissing off customers" category, doing apple products is a much easier proposition because apple does a better job of "self selecting" the OS and device. They stop support for the older devices on the new OS (just ask any ipad 1 user or an iphone 3 user). But in the android world there is more backwards porting which makes the test matrix huge. (Hell, I am running android jellybean on a kindle fire....)

Now, the market for android is so fractured that offering android support for some models and some versions of the OS would create more angry customers and more pressure on them ("you already have support for it on xyz running 123, why can't I get it on abc running 456...?)

I'm sure they will eventually get there and I will be happy when they do, but assuming that because android is large market it is smartest to start there is a fallacy. It's all about the usage and ease of bringing the product to market. And regardless of the market sizes, there is a better ROI on the apple products.


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## ort

It's crazy just how bitter and angry many android fans are.

It's just weird.


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## crxssi

Austin Bike said:


> For those asking why Apple support was so easy and android support is more difficult: In order to support 90% of the android market they would need to support 331 devices. [...]
> Huge difference from a coding and support standpoint.


This is not actually correct. That is like saying to write a program that works on MS-Windows, you have to support 12,000 different computer models. Nonsense. When one writes using the Android development system, one produces a program that will run on most any targeted Android device.

It is up to the developer, which resolutions and features he wants to support. If one simply MUST use the newest of the new features, then one will limit the code to a lower number of devices- those that are running newer versions of the OS and/or better/more capable hardware. This doesn't necessarily make writing the application more difficult.

When writing an Android application, one has to consider different CPU powers, resolutions, features, just like one does when writing an iOS application. There is considerably more hardware and OS variation in the Android space and that does make it more of a challenge. But it doesn't mean having to adapt a program to "331 devices".


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## innocentfreak

TiVo Stream Android support no time soon.

It looks like the coming update may just be to resolve issues with 4.2


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## Austin Bike

ort said:


> It's crazy just how bitter and angry many android fans are.
> 
> It's just weird.


I can understand the frustration. but everyone neexs to understand the realities of business.

Iamwriting this on anandroid tablet. But i still find apple products to beeasier to use.


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## Austin Bike

crxssi said:


> This is not actually correct. That is like saying to write a program that works on MS-Windows, you have to support 12,000 different computer models. Nonsense. When one writes using the Android development system, one produces a program that will run on most any targeted Android device.
> 
> It is up to the developer, which resolutions and features he wants to support. If one simply MUST use the newest of the new features, then one will limit the code to a lower number of devices- those that are running newer versions of the OS and/or better/more capable hardware. This doesn't necessarily make writing the application more difficult.
> 
> When writing an Android application, one has to consider different CPU powers, resolutions, features, just like one does when writing an iOS application. There is considerably more hardware and OS variation in the Android space and that does make it more of a challenge. But it doesn't mean having to adapt a program to "331 devices".


I am going to disagree. I have been in product development for 20+ years. high tech. Platform enablement. Software development. Android is hardly write once run everywhere.


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## Arcady

Austin Bike said:


> I can understand the frustration. but everyone neexs to understand the realities of business.
> 
> Iamwriting this on anandroid tablet. But i still find apple products to beeasier to use.


I don't see how the Apple keyboard could be any worse than the one you typed that message on...


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## crxssi

Austin Bike said:


> I am going to disagree. I have been in product development for 20+ years. high tech. Platform enablement. Software development. Android is hardly write once run everywhere.


I think you skipped what I was trying to say...

I never claimed it would be a "write once run everywhere." It most certainly can be if you want it to be something simple. If you are going to tackle something more complex (which is more typical) it is going to require more work, but not 331 ports or "supporting" or "adapting" to "331 different devices"... an exaggeration/generalization I was trying to correct.

The biggest problem with Android are the devices which are stuck on older versions of the OS. THAT will set most of the limitations, depending on how wide a net you want to throw. Even so, last year, Android represents 70% of the smart phone sales (compared to some 19% on iOS) and 50% of the tablet sales. Just targeting Android 4.X is covering 44% of the huge Android market.

Development and testing will never be as easy in Android as it is for iOS, since one of the things that Android does so well- consumer and manufacture choice and variety, also makes development and testing more challenging.


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## Dan203

I agree that the OS requirement is the biggest hurdle. And as I mentioned earlier the main feature required for Stream functionality is encrypted HLS, and that was not added to Android until v4. So once they do finally get this app done the number of devices it will actually run on is going to be limited those released in the last 8-10 months. That leaves a huge chunk of Android users out in the cold. Then they have to figure out how to market it properly so as not to anger customers with older versions of Android. Most people don't even know which version of Android their devices use, so how is TiVo going to insure only users with the proper devices buy the Stream?

iOS by contrast supports encrypted HLS on all devices. So it was much easier for them to develop and market the Stream for iOS.


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## Austin Bike

Dan, I don't know the ins and outs of HLS, but you make an excellent point. Everyone keeps tossing around the market share numbers but in doing so, they are neglecting that a.) smartphones are not the primary market, tablets are and b.) there are OS limitations that will keep the app from running on all android tablets.

An additional factor that is difficult to weigh is that apple once had ~80%+ of the tablet market, so the install base is a huge factor (I have no data on that). Now, to be fair, the market of older android tablets may/may not be that large, I just don't know. However, saying that they have ~50% of the tablet market may be "factually" true for this most recent quarters' data, but that does not represent the real business opportunity.

Here is the real comparison, but none of us has the number:

Total addressable install base of compatible apple units:
All ipads sold after March 7, 2012
Some percentage of previously sold ipads that were upgraded to IOS 5.1 or higher
All iphone 4s and 5 models
Some percentage of previously sold iphones (3GS, and 4) that were upgraded to IOS 5.1 or higher

Total install base for android:
All Ice cream sandwich and jelly bean units.
Here is some data that shows OS distribution:
http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html

So, even if Android was 50% of the tablet market, less than half of the android devices are running the v4 or above. Let's say that the tablets skew heavily and that actually 75% are capable of running the OS. That would give you ~37.5% of the market to android capable, ~12.5% non-capable vs. the 50% of all apple. So, ultimately, even in a skewed market (and nobody has the data on that), there is still a considerable lead on the apple products.

Again, nobody here has the actual data so unless someone can bring that in, it is not worth arguing this point. I only bring two ideas forward:

1. Claiming the andriod market is a bigger opportunity is not clearly defined with anyone's data.
2. Building android support is far more complex than building apple support because there are fewer device and OS variables on the apple side.

Neither of these should be taken as a statement for or against android or apple, simply the realities of the situation. With the lack of data that we all have on market opportunity and actual development challenges, we should probably not pursure those lines of discussion because too many people (myself included) simply do not have the actual facts.


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## Dan203

One thing we do know however is that a functional prototype of the Stream was demonstrated at the cable show last year in April. At that time they had already settled on using encrypted HLS and had pretty much got it working on iOS. However Android 4.0 had just been released and I think there was one Samsung tablet that was actually using it. So at that moment the market for the Stream on Android was pretty much non-existent.

Between then and September Samsung's sales figures for tablets running v4.0+ were pretty good, but only something like 18% of total tablet sales. The Google Nexus had just launched and the Kindle Fire HD wasn't even out yet.

By November sales of all 3 picked up considerably and TiVo saw the writing on the wall and added Android support to their road map. However this stuff takes time. They likely had a year, maybe more, to work on the iOS app before it was released. It's only been 4 months since they decided to add Android support.

People have this misconception that software development is easy. I can tell you from experience it's not! Seemingly simple tasks can trip you up and eat up days or weeks of your time. And throwing a bunch of developers at the problem wouldn't really help since the product isn't big enough to effectively utilize multiple developers, and if they tried they'd likely end up stepping on each others toes.


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## PCurry57

button1066 said:


> So sorry you can't afford nice things but crying about it makes you look ridiculous. How anyone can be so bitter over consumer products is laughable.


Even DirecTV/Nomad has a PC app. You made an assumption about my financial status, because I'm frugal. Who is the jerk and your apparent disdain for others is sad. But hey you got your kicks you belittled someone.


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## PCurry57

Dan203 said:


> One thing we do know however is that a functional prototype of the Stream was demonstrated at the cable show last year in April. At that time they had already settled on using encrypted HLS and had pretty much got it working on iOS. However Android 4.0 had just been released and I think there was one Samsung tablet that was actually using it. So at that moment the market for the Stream on Android was pretty much non-existent.
> 
> Between then and September Samsung's sales figures for tablets running v4.0+ were pretty good, but only something like 18% of total tablet sales. The Google Nexus had just launched and the Kindle Fire HD wasn't even out yet.
> 
> By November sales of all 3 picked up considerably and TiVo saw the writing on the wall and added Android support to their road map. However this stuff takes time. They likely had a year, maybe more, to work on the iOS app before it was released. It's only been 4 months since they decided to add Android support.
> 
> People have this misconception that software development is easy. I can tell you from experience it's not! Seemingly simple tasks can trip you up and eat up days or weeks of your time. And throwing a bunch of developers at the problem wouldn't really help since the product isn't big enough to effectively utilize multiple developers, and if they tried they'd likely end up stepping on each others toes.


Dan I'm well aware of what goes into project development. Maybe because my past had to do with real time needs and a market that if you didn't respond rapidly you found yourself with customers fleeing in droves or worse hit with massive fines from convoluted ever changing laws this Metropolitan Service Area or that Public Utility Commission, the FCC... I'm just accustomed to a RAPID response to market demands, serving the instant gratification of the user. The saying in the telephony business was "It's is a nickel and dime business, but it's a god awful lot of nickels and dimes", so 24/7 365 your telephone service always works!


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## Dan203

TiVo has never been accused to rapidly responding to anything in it's history of existence. You'll have to learn to slow your expectations down to TiVo time.


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## Austin Bike

Found another interesting number. Despite Android moving ahead of iOS in the smartphone category (probably not the primary market for stream), the majority of the video is happening on iOS:

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/03/12...e-video-viewing-still-taking-place-on-iphone/

So we know that apple has the lead in tablets and even though they are tied or behind in phones, the overwhelming amount of video viewing on phones is happening on iOS.

That being said, I still want android support for my android tablet, but it appears the business case I laid out earlier - that the bigger opportunity lays in iOS first - is in fact reasonable.


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## ort

Austin Bike said:


> I can understand the frustration. but everyone neexs to understand the realities of business.
> 
> Iamwriting this on anandroid tablet. But i still find apple products to beeasier to use.


I can understand the frustration of wanting cool stuff on your platform of choice.

What I don't understand is the need for people to villainize the products they don't use. Or belittle and insult people who use products they don't use. Or get super-duper angry about this stuff.

I don't know what sort of emotional scarring leads a grown man to get furious about operating systems they don't use, but it really becomes humorous at some point.


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## Austin Bike

Beats the hell out of me. I use iOS and android. I think people today are divided on everything. It's like our political process has infected all of our lives. 

I pretty much use everything across a large network of devices. Everything is good for some functions and bad for others. Nothing is perfect.


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## PCurry57

Tablet market share has flipped, Android dominates the tablet market.

1stQ 2012 -- iOS 58.1%, Android 39.4%
1stQ 2013 -- iOS 39.6%, Android 56.5%

iOS growth year to year 65.3%
Android growth year to year 247.5%

Hey TiVo it's time to support Android with Stream. Jellybean has already overtaken Ice Cream Sandwich


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## JWhites

Dan203 said:


> As a phone OS that is true, but the Stream is aimed mainly at tablets not phones.
> 
> I've explained this before but there is actually a technical reason for the Android delay. The Stream uses a technology called encrypted HLS. Apple invented that technology so it is supported on all iOS devices. However Android did not add support for encrypted HLS until v4. And the only mass market tablets that use Android v4+ are the Kindle Fire HD and the Nexus, both of which weren't even released until late last year. So until like August of last year there wasn't even an Android tablet on the market capable of using a Stream. And actual mass market adoption of those tablets didn't happen until the holidays. So there was really no substantial market for an Android version of the Stream until about 2 months ago.
> 
> That being said a TiVo employee confirmed via this forum that they started work on a Android version back in November. A 6 month development cycle is typical for these sorts of things so I'm guessing we're looking at an April release date for Android support. Perhaps during that cable show where they announced the Stream hardware last year?


A six month development cycle is typical that is correct however it's now May, 7 months from November, and still there has been no word or hint or confirmation as to Android becoming compatible with the Stream. Let's not forget that the Kindle tablets are able to use Android apps now so not only are Android smartphones and tablets a viable option to watch TiVo videos on, but now the market has even become wider with the inclusion of the Kindle devices.


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## PCurry57

JWhites said:


> A six month development cycle is typical that is correct however it's now May, 7 months from November, and still there has been no word or hint or confirmation as to Android becoming compatible with the Stream. Let's not forget that the Kindle tablets are able to use Android apps now so not only are Android smartphones and tablets a viable option to watch TiVo videos on, but now the market has even become wider with the inclusion of the Kindle devices.


And kindle devices were not included in the numbers I previously quoted.


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## Grakthis

The line between phones and tablets is getting blurred. Phones are getting bigger, tablets are getting smaller. There's not that much of a gap between the iPad Mini and the Galaxy Note.

So, arguing "well, it's for tablets" is a dumb argument that carries no water. It's for an OS. The form factor I choose to run that OS on is my thing, not TiVos.


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## Dan203

All of this data may be true now, but it wasn't a year ago when they announced the Stream. In fact, at that time, there was only one Android tablet on the market that even had 4.0+.

TiVo officially announced that they were working on the Android version in late November, so I assume that's when they started. So it's been about 6 months. They recently released a patch for the Android app, that proves that they are actively developing for the platform, so I'm betting we see Stream support for Android in the next month or two.

Although I'm not sure what sort of approval, if any, they have to get from CableLabs for this. If they need approval then who know how long that might hold up the process. Especially since Android is a much less secure platform and CableLabs may see it as a potential security hole.


----------



## Austin Bike

Dan,

In addition, at I/O this week the Android team had a frank discussion about the challenges of Android fragmentation:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57...ers-were-trying-to-fix-android-fragmentation/

I think this will continue to create problems for some time until the software layering can really come to fruition. I find that iOS devices do a much better job of handling applications. My Android devices have far too many "stopped working" and shutdown issues. Android feels a lot like windows on a tablet. Once you learn how to deal with the quirks it is ok. I'd prefer to have a strong Android in the market for competition, but while it is selling better than iOS, I fear that is mainly driven by price point and not ecosystem or stability.


----------



## Grakthis

Dan203 said:


> All of this data may be true now, but it wasn't a year ago when they announced the Stream. In fact, at that time, there was only one Android tablet on the market that even had 4.0+.
> 
> TiVo officially announced that they were working on the Android version in late November, so I assume that's when they started. So it's been about 6 months. They recently released a patch for the Android app, that proves that they are actively developing for the platform, so I'm betting we see Stream support for Android in the next month or two.
> 
> Although I'm not sure what sort of approval, if any, they have to get from CableLabs for this. If they need approval then who know how long that might hold up the process. Especially since Android is a much less secure platform and CableLabs may see it as a potential security hole.


I have a friend who is a single person who wrote a game for android and iOS. The android version came out 1 month before he submitted the iOS version.

That's one guy, writing a VIDEO GAME that does waaaaaay more than this application does. It has an entire rendering and physics engine in it.

So, the development cycle is not a valid excuse.

Cable labs is only a valid excuse if we assume TiVo is incompetent. I do not assume that.


----------



## Grakthis

Austin Bike said:


> Dan,
> 
> In addition, at I/O this week the Android team had a frank discussion about the challenges of Android fragmentation:
> 
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57...ers-were-trying-to-fix-android-fragmentation/
> 
> I think this will continue to create problems for some time until the software layering can really come to fruition. I find that iOS devices do a much better job of handling applications. My Android devices have far too many "stopped working" and shutdown issues. Android feels a lot like windows on a tablet. Once you learn how to deal with the quirks it is ok. I'd prefer to have a strong Android in the market for competition, but while it is selling better than iOS, I fear that is mainly driven by price point and not ecosystem or stability.


Nah. It's just flat out a better OS. It's easier to develop for, it has a wider variety of hardware, it has a faster innovation cycle (due to there being so many manufacturers) and there's more opportunity for differentiation (no one wants to feel like they have the same phone as everyone else).

I also have to question how much you actually use android if you have more app crashes than on iOS. Sure, App crashes are absolutely a thing on Android. I have 4 android devices I use for various tasks, and yeah, I probably get a "stopped working" message once a week. But load up the Marvel Unlimited App on iOS and I promise you you'll generate a crash in the first hour. Which is to say, it has nothing to do with the OS and everything to do with the app.


----------



## Austin Bike

Arguing that either OS is better is really crazy. Both OSs are different and each has their strengths and weaknesses. In the world of judo, you use your opponents strength as their weakness. Supporting a more varied amount of hardware actually can be a negative. It's walled garden vs. the bazaar. The bottom line is that both have their advantages, but from a business perspective there is a reason that iOS came out first.


----------



## JWhites

A friend of mine told me that it's silly that they can't write an app to work with the Stream for Android because of something to do with Java which is supposed to be a lot easier to write then Apple?


----------



## Dan203

JWhites said:


> A friend of mine told me that it's silly that they can't write an app to work with the Stream for Android because of something to do with Java which is supposed to be a lot easier to write then Apple?


The language Apple uses is kind of a PITA. It's called Objective C. It's a derivative of C/C++ but it's just different enough to make it like learning a new language even for a seasoned C/C++ programmer. Android mainly uses Java with some limited C/C++ support.

However there are a TON of people that are well versed in both Java and Objective C that TiVo could hire to do these apps, so that's not really the issue. There was a technical limitation to Android, which I've explained before, that made it impossible to develop Stream support for Android initially. But that limitation was removed in Android 4.0 which most devices have now transitioned to. At this point there is really no excuse. I hope that they are working on the app right now and are very close to delivering it.


----------



## TiVo Fool

DirectTV just launched their streaming app for Android. Works on Android 2.2 and up:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/01/directv-geniego-app-arrives-for-android-viewers/

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.directv.application.android.go.production&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwyLDEsImNvbS5kaXJlY3R2LmFwcGxpY2F0aW9uLmFuZHJvaWQuZ28ucHJvZHVjdGlvbiJd


----------



## Dan203

I don't know what technology DirecTV uses, but the TiVo Stream uses encrypted HLS which is only supported on Android 4.0+. DirecTV is a closed system, so they can do pretty much whatever they want. TiVo has to adhere to CableLabs guidelines so there are limitations on the technologies they can use as they have to be approved by CableLabs.


----------



## TiVo Fool

Well, 59% of Android devices are now running 4.0+. Time to get moving on this!


----------



## JWhites

me too Dan. Tired of waiting. Got an android tablet I really want to start putting to good use.


----------



## Dan203

I agree. Not supporting Android at launch was understandable. Not supporting it 8 months later is a bit ridiculous. They said they were working on it last November. Seems like it should really be done by now.


----------



## JWhites

I asked someone in TiVo earlier today and they said they've been getting nonstop complaints about the lack of Android support and was told "it's coming extremely soon" so that's a good sign right?


----------



## Dan203

I hope so.


----------



## Arcady

There's no way they sold enough of these to continue development.


----------



## Dan203

Arcady said:


> There's no way they sold enough of these to continue development.


Why do you say that? Do you have any data on how many they sold?

Plus there is some pretty solid evidence that Stream functionality will be built in to the next generation units, so they wont have to sell standalone TiVo Streams forever to maintain demand for the software.


----------



## Austin Bike

This has little to do with the install base and everything to do with future sales. Look at how many cable dvrs have mobile apps and offer access everywhere. This is all about selling more premiere units and not about selling streams. I would not be surprised if the functionality is built into units directly one day and stream standalone units become orphans, just like the original CDROM drives were (anyone remember when they were all external?)

This will be about keeping up with the joneses from a feature checklist perspective.


----------



## Dan203

But you said that there is no way they sold enough to continue development. If the next gen has it built in then every TiVo will essentially be a Stream and there will be plenty of them to continue development. The standalone hardware may have a limited life span but the software seems to be part of their next gen plan, so there is plenty of reason to contiue development.


----------



## Austin Bike

Yes, Ethernet used to be an add on. Two tuners used to be a "premium" model, HD was a "premium" model. When I bought my HD most of the country was probably still on CRT TVs.


----------



## rainwater

It is really sad that there has been no news on Android or a web based version. It's easy to see why there is no Android version. Even the base TiVo app for Android is light years behind the iOS version.


----------



## jrtroo

That is the effect of no development, not the cause.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

From Zatz:

"PSA: Anonymous tipster, who I can't vouch for, claims we're on for November with broader Android device support than one might expect from the first iteration of a video stream app on that platform."


----------



## NotNowChief

BigJimOutlaw said:


> From Zatz:
> 
> "PSA: Anonymous tipster, who I cant vouch for, claims were on for November with broader Android device support than one might expect from the first iteration of a video stream app on that platform."


If this rumor is true, and we factor in TiVo's traditional and customary and predictable and typical and usual delays, we should realistically see this in the Spring of 2014, because November=Fall 2013.


----------



## TiVo Fool

Verizon has released their Android streaming app. Just Live TV and VOD, doesn't look like you can stream your recordings (yet):

http://newscenter.verizon.com/residential/news-articles/2013/06-fios-mobile-app-android-launch/


----------



## Dan203

Wow if that's true then that means it will have been in development for a year. (TiVoStephen claimed they started working on it last November) I wonder if they decided to move away from encrypted HLS to another technology that is more broadly supported? Developing a new system like that would require a change to the software on the Stream itself, so it mig take longer to get going. If it's just using encrypted HLS like the iPad app then I wonder why it's taking so long?


----------



## aaronwt

Yes. i guess I'll be sticking with my Slingbox 350. Unless they build in stream capabilities into the new TiVo. Which will hopefully still come out this year.


----------



## larrs

Man, this really is ridiculous. My wife and daughters all embraced Apple products long ago, but I held out back in the "no mp3 support" days and still have a bad taste in my mouth from that crap (exacerbated by the no SDHC upgrade card slot in iOS devices- $100 extra for what a $10 SDHC card costs). So, here I am with my Samsung Tab and Galaxy S3 and they can stream shows to their ipads, ipods and iphones, and I am stuck. It wouldn't hurt so bad except I am the one who travels a lot for work and could use the downloads on long trips. At least I have Vudu and Ultraviolet, but my shows would be better.

Yesterday for Father's Day, they gave me a Best Buy gift Card as a gift. They told me to get an iPad and sell it once the Android stream app came out. Talk about salt in a OLD wound...


----------



## jcthorne

I travel with my Hisense android tablet with lots of my shows from the Tivo. kmttg does just fine and no stream needed.

Thank you Google for an open platform and no DRM bs in the way. Works great.


----------



## cmulvaney

I got screwed twice. lol I have a 1 Samsung Tablet running Windows 8 and 1 Sony Tablet Running Android. SMH


----------



## larrs

jcthorne said:


> I travel with my Hisense android tablet with lots of my shows from the Tivo. kmttg does just fine and no stream needed.
> 
> Thank you Google for an open platform and no DRM bs in the way. Works great.


I have kmttg. I was under the impression that the strem transcodes the program to mp4 much faster than kmttg using videoredo. Is that not the case? If so I may try it.


----------



## Dan203

The Stream can transcode pretty fast, about 20-25 minutes per hour of video. Although if you have a high end PC then you can do the same thing in VideoReDo.

The biggest advantage of the Stream is that it transcodes and transfers all in one shot. So you don't have to transfer to PC, then transcode, then transfer to iPad. You just pick the show and click "Download". It's very convenient. Although if you go the PC route you can cut out the commercials which is nice. Plus you have more fine grain control over the bitrate so you can reduce the file size and/or increase the quality. Although I find the Stream transcodes to be good enough.


----------



## JWhites

aaronwt said:


> Yes. i guess I'll be sticking with my Slingbox 350. Unless they build in stream capabilities into the new TiVo. Which will hopefully still come out this year.


Even if the stream capabilities were to be integrated into the new gen of boxes doesn't mean that it won't be restricted to Apple as well.


----------



## Austin Bike

Dan203 said:


> The Stream can transcode pretty fast, about 20-25 minutes per hour of video. Although if you have a high end PC then you can do the same thing in VideoReDo.
> 
> The biggest advantage of the Stream is that it transcodes and transfers all in one shot. So you don't have to transfer to PC, then transcode, then transfer to iPad. You just pick the show and click "Download". It's very convenient. Although if you go the PC route you can cut out the commercials which is nice. Plus you have more fine grain control over the bitrate so you can reduce the file size and/or increase the quality. Although I find the Stream transcodes to be good enough.


You hit the nail on the head. While I can do the other things with a PC (and my wife loved the commercial trimming aspect), knowing that I can just have her fill her own ipad before a trip makes the stream a worthwhile investment. And the interface is tivo, so there was zero learning curve. With multiple ipads and lots of checklist items before a vacation, knowing this is so easy is a big benefit.


----------



## chart

Where Is Android Support??


----------



## Austin Bike

Another story popped up this morning:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-5...wipe-at-android-with-new-fragmentation-chart/

93% are on the latest OS and there are only a handful of devices.

According to Android's own data:

http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html

So we still have a pretty sizeable chunk (~2/3) that are on an older version than the most recent rev. This means from a development standpoint that you are either going to a.) have to support a wide range of OS's on devices (lots of work) or b.) tell a lot of people that their devices are not supported (lots of customer satisfaction issues.)

Saying that Android has bigger share than iOS is like saying that there are more hockey fans than Chicago Bulls fans. Yes, it is technically true, but it is a lot easier to make a million Chicago Bulls fans happy than a million hockey fans happy because there is less common ground beneath the hockey fans.


----------



## mr_smits

Austin Bike said:


> Another story popped up this morning:
> 
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-5...wipe-at-android-with-new-fragmentation-chart/
> 
> 93% are on the latest OS and there are only a handful of devices.
> 
> According to Android's own data:
> 
> http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html
> 
> So we still have a pretty sizeable chunk (~2/3) that are on an older version than the most recent rev. This means from a development standpoint that you are either going to a.) have to support a wide range of OS's on devices (lots of work) or b.) tell a lot of people that their devices are not supported (lots of customer satisfaction issues.)


The majority of Android devices are on 4.0 or higher. Older devices can be left behind as very few 2.3 devices are still being sold. It's not as difficult to support 4.0 and higher Android devices than it is to support 2.3 devices (older and slower hardware).

Of course 93% of iOS devices will be on the latest software because that is how Apple designed devices on their eco-systems to work. Central control allows that to happen.


----------



## Austin Bike

mr_smits said:


> The majority of Android devices are on 4.0 or higher. Older devices can be left behind as very few 2.3 devices are still being sold. It's not as difficult to support 4.0 and higher Android devices than it is to support 2.3 devices (older and slower hardware).
> 
> Of course 93% of iOS devices will be on the latest software because that is how Apple designed devices on their eco-systems to work. Central control allows that to happen.


Ice cream sandwich and jellybean are different and need to handled separately.

And when you take that into consideration, only 1/3 are on the latest version.


----------



## Austin Bike

And the statement "older devices can be left behind" may sound simple, but when customers complain, it becomes an issue. It is very complex.


----------



## ort

larrs said:


> ...but I held out back in the "no mp3 support" days...


What days were these? What didn't support MP3s?


----------



## TiVo Fool

Austin Bike said:


> And the statement "older devices can be left behind" may sound simple, but when customers complain, it becomes an issue. It is very complex.


 Bottom line is TiVo is way behind the competition in providing streaming on Android. Enough with the excuses!


----------



## Davisadm

TiVo Fool said:


> Bottom line is TiVo is way behind the competition in providing streaming on Android. Enough with the excuses!


What excuses? I don't see TiVo giving excuses!


----------



## TiVo Fool

Davisadm said:


> What excuses? I don't see TiVo giving excuses!


 Was I quoting TiVo? I was referring to the people in this thread that keep coming up with reasons why it is so hard!


----------



## Dan203

That's true. Other then the "announcement" last November that they were working on it they haven't even mentioned Android support.


----------



## Dan203

TiVo Fool said:


> Was I quoting TiVo? I was referring to the people in this thread that keep coming up with reasons why it is so hard!


There were valid reasons for them not to have it ready at launch, those reasons are a LOT less valid 10 months later. I'm with you at this point! Android support should be available by now.


----------



## mr_smits

Austin Bike said:


> Ice cream sandwich and jellybean are different and need to handled separately.
> 
> And when you take that into consideration, only 1/3 are on the latest version.


Of course they are different, but you are exaggerating how different they are. I'd say it's like iOS 6.01 and 6.1.2. Different but not much so.

The only people that quote adoption rates are Apple fanboys because the old Apple bragging rights of "most apps" and total handset popularity has vanished.

That being said, maybe iOS7 will finally push the platform enough for me to consider owning an iPhone. As it is now, Android has been leading the pack with features and innovation for the past few years. The fact that iOS still doesn't have automatic app updates is mind boggling. It's like how long it took for Apple to provide cut and paste and MMS support.


----------



## Austin Bike

I own apple and android devices and am far from an apple fanboy. While I reiterate that it is harder than most think, there are many here that oversimplify both the technical and business challenges. 

I would love android support as much as everyone else.


----------



## Austin Bike

Dan203 said:


> There were valid reasons for them not to have it ready at launch, those reasons are a LOT less valid 10 months later. I'm with you at this point! Android support should be available by now.


Absolutely, the clock is ticking


----------



## JWhites

Why do I feel that if this isn't fixed, a class action lawsuit should be filed for discrimination against Android users with a no faith concern? As in we have no faith in TiVo.


----------



## fdisker2000

What makes me concerned is; there is no mention of android on the Streams product page on TiVo.com. I could have swore that it used to say something about android support coming soon, or something to that effect.


----------



## Dan203

JWhites said:


> Why do I feel that if this isn't fixed, a class action lawsuit should be filed for discrimination against Android users with a no faith concern? As in we have no faith in TiVo.


There are millions of apps that only work on one OS or another. I doubt not supporting your OS of choice is grounds for a class action suit.


----------



## Austin Bike

JWhites said:


> Why do I feel that if this isn't fixed, a class action lawsuit should be filed for discrimination against Android users with a no faith concern? As in we have no faith in TiVo.


Good luck finding a lawyer to take that. You'd have no standing unless they publicly stated that they would support android and gave a timing.

Never buy a product based on future promises, buy it as-is.


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> There are millions of apps that only work on one OS or another. I doubt not supporting your OS of choice is grounds for a class action suit.


True - but in 2013 no serious business offers support on only one mobile platform. Only fledgling startups that will sink or swim within 12 months release with support for a single mobile operating system.


----------



## JWhites

Austin Bike said:


> Good luck finding a lawyer to take that. You'd have no standing unless they publicly stated that they would support android and gave a timing.
> 
> Never buy a product based on future promises, buy it as-is.


Probably right but at least it would give me something to do.


----------



## mr_smits

The latest Android Nexus tablet will be released soon, according to news sources. Stream support?


----------



## ellinj

mr_smits said:


> The latest Android Nexus tablet will be released soon, according to news sources. Stream support?


maybe someday


----------



## Austin Bike

mr_smits said:


> The latest Android Nexus tablet will be released soon, according to news sources. Stream support?


Better probability of it being tied to a rev of the sw than to a hw platform.


----------



## mr_smits

Austin Bike said:


> Better probability of it being tied to a rev of the sw than to a hw platform.


Android 4.3 will be released at the same time as the Nexus 7 tablet release.


----------



## Dan203

That's this Wednesday right?


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> That's this Wednesday right?


I think that is the announcement. The release date may be next Monday or Tuesday.


----------



## DeWitt

While I would certainly like Android support, I am a little more sympathetic than most to Tivo. Today it was announced that traffic from tablets in the US and Canada exceeded 84% for iPad.

http://chitika.com/insights/2013/june-tablet-update

Easy to see where the resources get spent....


----------



## Austin Bike

DeWitt said:


> While I would certainly like Android support, I am a little more sympathetic than most to Tivo. Today it was announced that traffic from tablets in the US and Canada exceeded 84% for iPad.
> 
> http://chitika.com/insights/2013/june-tablet-update
> 
> Easy to see where the resources get spent....


I am suspect of that number.



> To determine the distribution of Web usage among tablet devices for the month of June 2013, Chitika Insights sampled tens of millions of U.S. and Canadian tablet online ad impressions running through the Chitika Ad Network.


Because they are measuring off of their own ad network I am not sure how repesentational the data is to a wider market. We are relying on their ability to accurately sniff all of the devices. Without knowing the methodology on the back end it is almost impossible to tell how accurate they are.

I have no doubt that Apple leads in this market, but 84% seems too high. My gut tells me that it is probably in the 60-70% range. That still supports your premise, but not as strongly.


----------



## DeWitt

I see Android phones everywhere, but in my daily commutes I have only seen one or two Android tablets, iPads are everywhere! (Disregarding people reading books on Kindles...)

But, Todays announcement of Android 4.3 includes new DRM (Digital Rights Management) API's.. That may well be the key to bring Tivo streaming to Android. 

If it does it will give me a good excuse to try a Nexus 7.


----------



## button1066

DeWitt said:


> While I would certainly like Android support, I am a little more sympathetic than most to Tivo. Today it was announced that traffic from tablets in the US and Canada exceeded 84% for iPad.
> 
> http://chitika.com/insights/2013/june-tablet-update
> 
> Easy to see where the resources get spent....


That link sums up the reality of Apple and Android products better than any of the comments previously in this thread. The iPad tablet usage share is increasing despite the rising share of Android tablet sales. In other words people might be buying more Android tablets year on year but they obviously offer such a diminished user experience that they just don't get used.


----------



## mr_smits

DeWitt said:


> I see Android phones everywhere, but in my daily commutes I have only seen one or two Android tablets, iPads are everywhere! (Disregarding people reading books on Kindles...)


Give it another year or two, and you will see Android tablets everywhere. Like the iPhone dominating the smartphone market for a few years, the iPad has dominated for a few years. However, times a 'changing.


----------



## jrtroo

My fear is starting to become that whenever the android app is finally released that my xoom will not be able to use the app. Nooooo!


----------



## atmuscarella

mr_smits said:


> Give it another year or two, and you will see Android tablets everywhere. Like the iPhone dominating the smartphone market for a few years, the iPad has dominated for a few years. However, times a 'changing.


I don't think it will be a year or 2. 70 million android tablets so far - with 30 million of them from this year.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/24/google-reports-70-million-android-tablet-activations-50-billion-downloads/


----------



## IWontBuyYourCrap

Davisadm said:


> Sorry, if you "don't buy Apple products. Period",
> then you are out of luck, period.


I made this account just to reply to this comment.

I won't ever buy Apple products either, and now I won't ever buy Tivo products either, especially after reading your comment.

This is what you call good PR?

I'm glad i did a little research before I purchased any Tivo devices.

I'll be sure to steer all friends and family away from Tivo as well.

Good job!


----------



## JWhites

I'd wonder when we'll see support for Windows 8 phones and tablets. Probably before we'll see support for Android devices.


----------



## atmuscarella

IWontBuyYourCrap said:


> I made this account just to reply to this comment.
> 
> I won't ever buy Apple products either, and now I won't ever buy Tivo products either, especially after reading your comment.
> 
> This is what you call good PR?
> 
> I'm glad i did a little research before I purchased any Tivo devices.
> 
> I'll be sure to steer all friends and family away from Tivo as well.
> 
> Good job!


You do understand that this site is not owned or operated by TiVo right? And that the person you quoted does not represent TiVo.

While the "Stream" does not currently support streaming to Android devices we have good reason to believe that TiVo will support streaming to Android devices at sometime in the future. Of course if buying now don't buy based on anything other than what is available now.


----------



## Austin Bike

Actually, there will always be people who take positions that start include the word "never."

In most cases they were not likely to be customers anyway, so not much is lost. People need to keep an open mind and buy what meets their needs.


----------



## Dan203

JWhites said:


> I'd wonder when we'll see support for Windows 8 phones and tablets. Probably before we'll see support for Android devices.


Actually Windows 8 does not support Encrypted HLS, which is what the Stream currently uses. There is a 3rd party SDK that you can use to add it to a Windows 8 app but it was only released at NAB back in April, so even if they are using that SDK and started immediately after it was released development would still be lagging behind Android.


----------



## atmuscarella

Just in case anyone still has any doubts on where the tablet market is going:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/29/tablet-marketshare/

The short version is android tablets out sold IOS tablets by over 2 to 1 in the last quarter.

TiVo wake up and get support for android.


----------



## ort

mr_smits said:


> Give it another year or two, and you will see Android tablets everywhere. Like the iPhone dominating the smartphone market for a few years, the iPad has dominated for a few years. However, times a 'changing.


iPhone marketshare is actually increasing in the USA.

If you look at the numbers from the big carriers it is typically something like 50% iPhone, 45% Android and 5% other.

http://www.imore.com/att-q2-2013-results-32-billion-revenue-68-million-smartphone-sales

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/18/technology/mobile/verizon-iphone/

http://bgr.com/2013/07/08/t-mobile-iphone-sales/


----------



## button1066

atmuscarella said:


> Just in case anyone still has any doubts on where the tablet market is going:
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/29/tablet-marketshare/
> 
> The short version is android tablets out sold IOS tablets by over 2 to 1 in the last quarter.
> 
> TiVo wake up and get support for android.


The link you posted is global sales most of which are irrelevant to TiVo. If you read up the thread a little you can see a post showing that tablet use in the US is not only dominated by iOS but that the iOS share is actually increasing. Android tablet users are a shrinking minority in the US!

American Android users either don't actually use their devices for some reason in which case there is no point in TiVo chasing them or Android sales are still only really significant outside the US. You might want to deal with that instead of keeping your fingers crossed.

Here is a link to the sad reality...

http://chitika.com/insights/2013/june-tablet-update


----------



## atmuscarella

button1066 said:


> The link you posted is global sales most of which are irrelevant to TiVo. If you read up the thread a little you can see a post showing that tablet use in the US is not only dominated by iOS but that the iOS share is actually increasing. Android tablet users are a shrinking minority in the US!
> 
> American Android users either don't actually use their devices for some reason in which case there is no point in TiVo chasing them or Android sales are still only really significant outside the US. You might want to deal with that instead of keeping your fingers crossed.
> 
> Here is a link to the sad reality...
> 
> http://chitika.com/insights/2013/june-tablet-update


That article did not say that android sales where outside the US. In fact it did not talk about sales at all and the only article about sales it linked to again showed Android tablets significantly outselling IOS tablets.

Also the usage data was based on online ad impressions through the Chitika Ad Network, which does nothing to tell me or anyone else if android tablet owners want to stream video from their TiVos onto their tablets.

The reality is very simple for new tablet sales Android is significantly out selling IOS and there are now more Android tablets in use than IOS ones. Any company that only supports IOS tablets is writing off the majority of the tablet market.


----------



## button1066

atmuscarella said:


> That article did not say that android sales where outside the US. In fact it did not talk about sales at all and the only article about sales it linked to again showed Android tablets significantly outselling IOS tablets.
> 
> Also the usage data was based on online ad impressions through the Chitika Ad Network, which does nothing to tell me or anyone else if android tablet owners want to stream video from their TiVos onto their tablets.
> 
> The reality is very simple for new tablet sales Android is significantly out selling IOS and there are now more Android tablets in use than IOS ones. Any company that only supports IOS tablets is writing off the majority of the tablet market.


So why don't Android users actually use their devices then, can you explain? It only takes a few clicks to find more sources for usage statistics that show Android use is bizarrely low. It's pointless linking because you think global sales are all that matters. It's the same story with revenue on the app stores.

Add on the fragmentation of Android tablets and the variation in performance and quality of those devices and it just looks hopeless. I work for a software company and guess why we only develop for iOS? Yes that's right - none of our customers have expressed an interest in Android. Nobody uses the freaking things!

FWIW I think people buy Kindles and Nooks to read books and the rest of Android tablet sales are price driven and the people who buy them just aren't heavy users.


----------



## atmuscarella

button1066 said:


> So why don't Android users actually use their devices then, can you explain? It only takes a few clicks to find more sources for usage statistics that show Android use is bizarrely low. It's pointless linking because you think global sales are all that matters. It's the same story with revenue on the app stores.
> 
> Add on the fragmentation of Android tablets and the variation in performance and quality of those devices and it just looks hopeless. I work for a software company and guess why we only develop for iOS? Yes that's right - none of our customers have expressed an interest in Android. Nobody uses the freaking things!
> 
> FWIW I think people buy Kindles and Nooks to read books and the rest of Android tablet sales are price driven and the people who buy them just aren't heavy users.


Last time I looked buying and reading books is a primary function of a tablet or are you saying any usage that isn't trackable by some add network doesn't count?

I still pretty much use a computer to surf the web and block as many adds and trackers as possible. Until I can easily do the same with my tablet I will continue to limit surfing the web with it. In any event add tracking isn't going to tell anyone if people are interested in using their Android tablets to stream shows from their TiVos or not.

I looked for US only sales and could not find any recent data. If you have links to recent US only sales point to them otherwise stop trying to say something is a fact that you have no facts to support.


----------



## button1066

atmuscarella said:


> Last time I looked buying and reading books is a primary function of a tablet or are you saying any usage that isn't trackable by some add network doesn't count?
> 
> I still pretty much use a computer to surf the web and block as many adds and trackers as possible. Until I can easily do the same with my tablet I will continue to limit surfing the web with it. In any event add tracking isn't going to tell anyone if people are interested in using their Android tablets to stream shows from their TiVos or not.
> 
> I looked for US only sales and could not find any recent data. If you have links to recent US only sales point to them otherwise stop trying to say something is a fact that you have no facts to support.


Reading books isn't streaming video from a DVR. Is it? I'm saying that people who buy a device to read books are not necessarily going to be in the market for streaming from a TiVo. Not least because nooks and kindles have their own content ecosystems tied to Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

You telling me that even you don't like using your Android device is about the nadir of this particular discussion and sums things up nicely. Guess what type of device I'm typing this on (and which I just streamed video on)?

TiVo is a business. They know their market. They don't support Android in the same way they are reassessing their support for Comcast on demand. Not enough return on investment.

I don't even understand your last paragraph. It's not me who is concerned about sales. It was you who indicated Android sales like it is meant to mean something.


----------



## atmuscarella

button1066 said:


> Reading books isn't streaming video from a DVR. Is it? I'm saying that people who buy a device to read books are not necessarily going to be in the market for streaming from a TiVo. Not least because nooks and kindles have their own content ecosystems tied to Amazon and Barnes and Noble.
> 
> You telling me that even you don't like using your Android device is about the nadir of this particular discussion and sums things up nicely. Guess what type of device I'm typing this on (and which I just streamed video on)?
> 
> TiVo is a business. They know their market. They don't support Android in the same way they are reassessing their support for Comcast on demand. Not enough return on investment.
> 
> I don't even understand your last paragraph. It's not me who is concerned about sales. It was you who indicated Android sales like it is meant to mean something.


Ok so for some reason you believe people using tablets for something other than surfing the web are not interested in streaming video from their TiVos to there tablets . The fact that I want to limit surfing the web with my tablet has no baring on if I want to use my tablet to stream or side load video from my TiVos to my tablet.

Which brings me back to my original post about this subject. There has been a major shift in tablet sales in the last year from IOS tablets being the vast majority to Android now being the majority. If you don't think that warrants TiVo supporting what is now and will likely be the major tablet platform for the foreseeable future that is your business and we can agree to disagree.


----------



## button1066

atmuscarella said:


> Ok so for some reason you believe people using tablets for something other than surfing the web are not interested in streaming video from their TiVos to there tablets . The fact that I want to limit surfing the web with my tablet has no baring on if I want to use my tablet to stream or side load video from my TiVos to my tablet.
> 
> Which brings me back to my original post about this subject. There has been a major shift in tablet sales in the last year from IOS tablets being the vast majority to Android now being the majority. If you don't think that warrants TiVo supporting what is now and will likely be the major tablet platform for the foreseeable future that is your business and we can agree to disagree.


My rather obvious point is that people just don't use Android devices for much of anything. You even agreed with me and said that you don't even like using yours. Don't blame you and at least you are honest.

I linked to usage statistics which you indicated we're irrelevant. You quote sales figures and then criticise me for not posting anything to back up those sales figures. For some reason.

I'm sure Android will be supported eventually and it will be a nightmare. Some devices will work some won't and TiVo will be lambasted for not satisfying everyone again.


----------



## aaronwt

button1066 said:


> The link you posted is global sales most of which are irrelevant to TiVo. If you read up the thread a little you can see a post showing that tablet use in the US is not only dominated by iOS but that the iOS share is actually increasing. Android tablet users are a shrinking minority in the US!
> 
> American Android users either don't actually use their devices for some reason in which case there is no point in TiVo chasing them or Android sales are still only really significant outside the US. You might want to deal with that instead of keeping your fingers crossed.
> 
> Here is a link to the sad reality...
> 
> http://chitika.com/insights/2013/june-tablet-update


That link is for tablet web usage. Not for the number of users of Android tablets. Two different things.

Personally I have several Android tablets, but most of my usage is from my local network, not usage on the web. Now the Android device where I have a lot of web usage is my cell phone.

Streaming from a TiVo to a tablet is not web usage. It would be local usage of the tablet. Which is what most of my tablet use is.


----------



## button1066

aaronwt said:


> That link is for tablet web usage. Not for the number of users of Android tablets. Two different things.
> 
> Personally I have several Android tablets, but most of my usage is from my local network, not usage on the web. Now the Android device where I have a lot of web usage is from my cell phone.


So Android users don't surf the web but do everything else that iPad users do and you believe that despite not actually having any evidence? What is your theory on why TiVo doesn't support Android then? Don't you think they do market research including keeping track of the number of actual users of their iOS and Android apps?


----------



## aaronwt

button1066 said:


> So Android users don't surf the web but do everything else that iPad users do and you believe that despite not actually having any evidence? What is your theory on why TiVo doesn't support Android then? Don't you think they do market research including keeping track of the number of actual users of their iOS and Android apps?


I have no theory on that. I was pointing out that your link has nothing to do with ownership numbers of Apple or Android tablets. Only the web usage of the tablets.

And streaming from the TiVo to the tablet is not web usage.

I've already accepted the fact that stream is probably not coming to Android. So that is less money that TiVo gets from me. Which is why I bought a Slingbox 350 when they were released last year. At least this way I can use it to watch content when away from home as well.

Although if streaming is built in to the six tuner TiVo, it will end up being a wasted feature for me without Android support.


----------



## button1066

aaronwt said:


> I have no theory on that. I was pointing out that your link has nothing to do with ownership numbers of Apple or Android tablets. Only the web usage of the tablets.
> 
> And streaming from the TiVo to the tablet is not web usage.
> 
> I've already accepted the fact that stream is probably not coming to Android. So that is less money that TiVo gets from me. Which is why I bought a Slingbox 350 when they were released last year. At least this way I can use it to watch content when away from home as well.
> 
> Although if streaming is built in to the six tuner TiVo, it will end up being a wasted feature for me without Android support.


To be honest I think Stream support will come to Android at some point but it might not be as nice an implementation as on iOS or as widely used.

I've been looking for articles on the Android usage discrepancy with Apple devices. It's not just my little theory or argument on here for the sake of it. I think the following two links cover the topic in a straightforward way...

http://readwrite.com/2013/06/06/3-p...vices-more-than-android#awesm=~od57gL30Dosu3R

http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthony...ty-gap-the-android-vs-ios-engagement-paradox/


----------



## Austin Bike

atmuscarella said:


> That article did not say that android sales where outside the US. In fact it did not talk about sales at all and the only article about sales it linked to again showed Android tablets significantly outselling IOS tablets.
> 
> Also the usage data was based on online ad impressions through the Chitika Ad Network, which does nothing to tell me or anyone else if android tablet owners want to stream video from their TiVos onto their tablets.
> 
> The reality is very simple for new tablet sales Android is significantly out selling IOS and there are now more Android tablets in use than IOS ones. Any company that only supports IOS tablets is writing off the majority of the tablet market.


Well, with the rise of android tablets comes the rise of fragmentation:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57596060-94/android-fragmentation-surges-but-is-that-a-bad-thing/

I think everyone here (myself included) would love to see android support for stream. But how many people would vote for android support if not all devices are covered?

If you get beat up for having no android support and then you release support and 20-30% of the devices can't run the program, all you are doing is pushing up your support costs.

Let's not look at this as "release stream for android and we're done." Instead you have to think about the bigger picture. For thousands of apps, there is probably no issue with the compatibility or support, but the more complicated apps that draw from a variety of systems will be more challenging.

While I do not know of a technical issue that is holding this back I can think of a lot of business reasons why this has not happened yet.

Edit: Actually this is a better visual of the problem:
http://gizmodo.com/just-look-at-how-much-worse-android-fragmentation-got-l-921423675


----------



## ort

This is an update from BBC about their troubles bringing the Android app up to speed with the iOS app.

In it they mention that their Android development team is 3 times the size of the iOS development team.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/posts/Video-on-Android-Devices-Update


----------



## Grakthis

ort said:


> This is an update from BBC about their troubles bringing the Android app up to speed with the iOS app.
> 
> In it they mention that their Android development team is 3 times the size of the iOS development team.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/posts/Video-on-Android-Devices-Update


The notion that you have to support 100% of the android versions and 100% of the screen sizes or you can't do anything in android is gibberish.

Netflix did a slow roll-out for Android, supporting only specific devices at first. They did it again for tablets when honeycomb came out.

Their android team is not 3x the size of their iOS team because Android is harder to develop for... it's because iOS has a smaller amount of hardware to test on.

It would be trivial for TiVo to roll out a version that only runs on a specific set of devices and add support over time to additional devices.

If they aren't doing it, it's because the stream is a dead product, not because of any notion about the development cycle or lack of market share. It's because the stream is not selling enough units to justify expanding the list of mobile devices it works on.


----------



## mr_smits

ort said:


> This is an update from BBC about their troubles bringing the Android app up to speed with the iOS app.
> 
> In it they mention that their Android development team is 3 times the size of the iOS development team.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/posts/Video-on-Android-Devices-Update


That's interesting. The Apple team supports 4 basic devices/form factors (iPhone, iPhone stretch, iPad, and iPad mini). The Android team supports 3000 devices (phones, tablets, and phablets).

Seems like the Apple team is a bit bloated, or the Android team is top notch.


----------



## jrtroo

Grakthis said:


> It would be trivial for TiVo to roll out a version that only runs on a specific set of devices and add support over time to additional devices.


My favorite claims are these- "its only a small change", or "a minor tweak in functionality".

If it were that easy, I'm sure it would have been done already. By easy, I mean both technically and through customer acceptance. I'm not sure why the delays, but my personal guess is we will have a lot of tivo news in the fall, this included.

At this point we can continue to gripe, but it will do us no good.


----------



## Dan203

Grakthis said:


> If they aren't doing it, it's because the stream is a dead product, not because of any notion about the development cycle or lack of market share. It's because the stream is not selling enough units to justify expanding the list of mobile devices it works on.


There is a strong indication that the next gen hardware, due out in a couple months, will have Stream capabilities built right into the box. So the standalone Stream hardware might be dead, but it seems TiVo is doubling down on the capability so app development should move forward.

TiVo has never been known for being quick about anything so while I personally don't think it should take this long to get an Android app out there, it doesn't surprise me that it's taking this long.


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## PCurry57

Netflix, hulu, hbo2go, shogo, cinmax numerous others stream video to a very wide variety of android devices. So the development differences between ios and android ring very hollow. I to was a very successful systems programmer in my time. The excuses are flat. The newest green of android devices out preform any ios device.


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## DeWitt

Here is a nice summary of the issue from the PBS team on why they don't have android tablet support yet.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/labs/why-were-not-doing-android-yet/


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## Dan203

This....

http://www.longtailvideo.com/blog/31646/the-pain-of-live-streaming-on-android/

...which is linked to from the article above is much more relvant to TiVo's plight with Android. They already have an Android app, so they've presumably dealt with the UI issues related to a multitude of screen sizes. However the broken implimentation of HLS in Android is a major problem. The Stream currently uses encrypted HLS as it's method for serving video to the iPad app. If even the most recent versions of Android do not fully support HLS tha means TiVo has to change the Stream to support an alternate protocol for Android. That is much more difficult then just writing an Android app to play the video they already have. That's a major redesign of the entire system. I had previously read that HLS was fully supported in Android 4.0+, so I assumed they were just going to write e app to only support those devices with 4.0+. But if the implimentation is broken even in those devices then they'd have to go with something completely different which could explain why it's taking so long to accomplish.


----------



## Austin Bike

Grakthis said:


> The notion that you have to support 100% of the android versions and 100% of the screen sizes or you can't do anything in android is gibberish.


So, you're basically saying that if TiVo dropped an app on the market tomorrow but your platforms were not supported you'd be happy?

Everyone agrees that not all platforms will be supported, as long as it is not their platform that is left behind.

I had this issue with silicon development. A socket-compatible processor that worked with "most" of our partners' platforms.

Back to the drawing board because you can't tell a company "it will work on these and not those, even though they all have the same socket and you built both systems to spec.


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> The Stream currently uses encrypted HLS as it's method for serving video to the iPad app. If even the most recent versions of Android do not fully support HLS tha means TiVo has to change the Stream to support an alternate protocol for Android. That is much more difficult then just writing an Android app to play the video they already have. That's a major redesign of the entire system.


It's clear that it's easier in iOS than Android, and that it the excuse that these various companies are providing. The fact is that it is possible even if it requires sourcing the right companies and individuals to do it.

The responsibility for creating a device so heavily reliant upon the HLS protocol that isn't a standard (yet) and only supports one operating system falls on TiVo leadership. Perhaps they need to bring in someone with more long term vision since their past decisions are very iOS centric creating an inflexibility in response to market changes.


----------



## Dan203

You have to remember that the design decisions for the Stream where likely made at least a year before it's release, which mean mid 2011. At the time the market share for Android tablets hadn't even hit double digits yet. Plus ICS was just about to be released and it promised support for HLS. There is no way for them to know that the HLS support would broken and still unusable 2 years later.

So looking at it from the perspective of someone designing a product in 2011 it makes perfect sense that they would chose HLS. It's easy to use, supported by all Apple devices (which dominated the market at the time), and contained an encryption protocol approved by CableLabs.

The only way they could have known it was a bad choice was if they had employed a psychic or invented a time machine first.


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> You have to remember that the design decisions for the Stream where likely made at least a year before it's release, which mean mid 2011. At the time the market share for Android tablets hadn't even hit double digits yet. Plus ICS was just about to be released and it promised support for HLS. There is no way for them to know that the HLS support would broken and still unusable 2 years later.
> 
> So looking at it from the perspective of someone designing a product in 2011 it makes perfect sense that they would chose HLS. It's easy to use, supported by all Apple devices (which dominated the market at the time), and contained an encryption protocol approved by CableLabs.
> 
> The only way they could have known it was a bad choice was if they had employed a psychic or invented a time machine first.


To be fair, the iPad was just released mid-2010, and Android 3.0 tablet support was released mid-2011. Of course there were no real competitors to the iPad mid 2011, but the signs were clear that there would be an Android competitor. At that time, just looking at the iPhone vs Android trends, it was not difficult to see what would happen after a few years. For those that remember, this has happened before in Mac vs PC...

I know Tivo had to make decisions based on what was known at the time, but they put all their eggs in the iOS basket. Best decision in the short term? Yes. Best decision after that? Absolutely not.


----------



## Dan203

They also have to consider what CableLabs would approve for this. Encrypted HLS is an accepted standard for CableLabs. Anything else would have required some sort of custom encryption scheme that they would have run through the certification process. That's expensive and time consuming.


----------



## jrtroo

mr_smits said:


> To be fair, the iPad was just released mid-2010, and Android 3.0 tablet support was released mid-2011. Of course there were no real competitors to the iPad mid 2011, but the signs were clear that there would be an Android competitor.


Well, I'm not sure how clear that was in 2011, honeycomb was slooow and buggy; nobody purchased the Xoom in volumes anywhere close to expectations. It took until Ice Cream Sandwich for these to have the smoothness necessary to gain market acceptance.


----------



## Dan203

I agree. I think TiVo went with a format they thought, at the time, would become a standard and supported on all platforms. Now two years later it's still not fully supported on Android so they're forced to redesign the whole product or implement a 3rd party SDK to get it to work. That's a much bigger task then they intended so it's understandable that it's taking longer then expected. If HLS was fully supported in Android like it should be then TiVo probably would have Stream support available by now.

That being said there are 3rd party SDKs for both Android and Win8 that add real encrypted HLS support, so this is all possible to accomplish without having to redesign the Stream's core functionality. Although I guess the viability of those SDKs really depends on their licensing terms. If they have a price per seat then it may force TiVo to start charging for the app on those platforms, and I'm not sure that would make users very happy.


----------



## mr_smits

jrtroo said:


> Well, I'm not sure how clear that was in 2011, honeycomb was slooow and buggy; nobody purchased the Xoom in volumes anywhere close to expectations. It took until Ice Cream Sandwich for these to have the smoothness necessary to gain market acceptance.


ICS was released only a few months later in 2011.

My main point in all this is saying that it was silly if Tivo believed that the iPad would be the only real option for a tablet. Just look at iPhone vs Android numbers by mid 2011. No crystal ball is needed to see the clear trend of what would happen with the tablet market.


----------



## Dan203

Yes but it wasn't clear that Android wouldn't support HLS properly. Apple submitted it to be an open standard. It was a reasonable assumption that it would be accepted and supported on most devices by now. They couldn't foresee that the standard would stall and that Googles implementation of it would be half assed and broken.


----------



## ort

mr_smits said:


> ICS was released only a few months later in 2011.
> 
> My main point in all this is saying that it was silly if Tivo believed that the iPad would be the only real option for a tablet. Just look at iPhone vs Android numbers by mid 2011. No crystal ball is needed to see the clear trend of what would happen with the tablet market.


You keep saying things like this...

The bottom line is this...

iOS devices have way higher user engagement. When you track web usage and ad stats and anything relevant, iOS is beating Android between anywhere from 2:1 (phones) to 9:1) tablets.

On average app developers make 4 times as much revenue from iOS app sales than they do from Android App sales. This includes revenue from ads.

Google themselves makes more money serving ads to iOS users than they do to Android users. They testified this fact in front of congress.

It's (generally) a lot easier and cheaper to program apps for iOS than it is for Android.

Put all of these things together and it's not rocket science.

No one really knows how many Android tablets are out there. No one puts out real numbers. All we get are estimates from various research firms. Who knows how accurate they are. Google doesn't tell anyone how many Nexus tablets the sell. Samsung doesn't tell anyone how many Galaxy tablets they sell. Amazon doesn't tell anyone how many Kindle Fire's they sell and on and on down the list. It's all an unknown.

You keep talking about how the market is headed over and over again. I'm not sure it really matters. Android has had a sizable lead for years now and yet the numbers still dictate that iOS is the lead development platform. Real companies with real products looking at real customer usage stats and real financial numbers look at both platforms and all choose iOS as the lead.

It's not a conspiracy. It's economics. They aren't pro-apple. They're pro money. And pro reality.

Repeating over and over and over again that the whole world is (obviously) moving to android isn't going to make it happen any sooner, no matter how much some people wish it to be true.

Maybe someday it will be. And when that day comes, and it makes economic sense for companies to put their weight behind Android, they will.

That's not to say that TiVo shouldn't have an Android app by now, or that Android isn't a platform worth supporting... because Android is a great platform, and TiVo probably should have had the app done by now...

But I'm guessing that a combination of low overall Stream sales coupled with development complications has made them prioritize other more important things.


----------



## Grakthis

jrtroo said:


> My favorite claims are these- "its only a small change", or "a minor tweak in functionality".
> 
> If it were that easy, I'm sure it would have been done already. By easy, I mean both technically and through customer acceptance. I'm not sure why the delays, but my personal guess is we will have a lot of tivo news in the fall, this included.
> 
> At this point we can continue to gripe, but it will do us no good.


I'm not just babbling here, I write code for a living. While I personally do not write java for android, members of my team do.


----------



## Grakthis

Austin Bike said:


> So, you're basically saying that if TiVo dropped an app on the market tomorrow but your platforms were not supported you'd be happy?
> 
> Everyone agrees that not all platforms will be supported, as long as it is not their platform that is left behind.
> 
> I had this issue with silicon development. A socket-compatible processor that worked with "most" of our partners' platforms.
> 
> Back to the drawing board because you can't tell a company "it will work on these and not those, even though they all have the same socket and you built both systems to spec.


I would at least recognize progress and assume that they would be here soon.

I am "happy" that I got 4G signal about 1 hour away from my house last week, because it means 4G is coming this direction soon.

Again, netflix did this. Stop pretending you can't do something that netflix did.


----------



## Dan203

It's not about whether or not they "can" do it. Pretty much anything can be done with sufficient resources. It's about economics. Unless they think adding Android support is going to significantly boost Stream sales there is very little economic incentive for them to add it. If Android actually supported HLS properly and it was easy to do, then I'm sure they'd do it just for posterity. However it doesn't sound like that's the case. So they have to decide if the resources needed to add support will boost sales enough to make them money. If not then they may still do it for posterity but it'll probably be very low priority with limited resources dedicated to the project.

That being said TiVo showed an interesting feature at the cable show where basically they had the entire TiVo UI running in a web browser, including the ability to play videos. They didn't really give much details on how it worked, but if that is something they can get going for consumers then you may be able to stream your TiVo shows to pretty much any device.


----------



## mr_smits

ort said:


> Google themselves makes more money serving ads to iOS users than they do to Android users. They testified this fact in front of congress.
> 
> It's (generally) a lot easier and cheaper to program apps for iOS than it is for Android.


All of that may be true, but none of it is relevant to Tivo offering Android compatibility for its Stream product. No one is clamoring for an extreme position like a Symbian OS compatible app with a fraction of a percentage of the market. Is supporting the platform that represents the most popular mobile OS in the US too logical a position?

Total market share does matter. Lead development platform doesnt matter for companies that arent start ups. The only companies that release on iOS only (or significantly before Android) are those fledgling companies that are struggling to even make it to the next quarter.

Who said it is a conspiracy? I said it is poor leadership at Tivo that has led to the current situation. I believe some of it is likely due to Apple centric thinking by Tivo leadership, and that is unfortunate since it can be avoided.

Im simply repeating the well-established facts about the growing Android market share in both phone and tablet formats. Trends are important to know for long term planning, and especially if Tivo is looking to survive and thrive in the changing television and internet streaming landscape.

I think the Stream has faced a chicken and egg scenario that has stymied sales, especially in non-Apple households. I know Tivo is coming out with an Android Stream app someday, but in the meantime, the Stream has been labeled as an Apple-only device and has turned potential customers away. Its already difficult for Tivo to recruit new non-MSO customers since it requires significant up-front fees and often also requires giving up access to carrier on demand content. Tivo should give customers another reason to switch (or stay) instead of giving them a reason to consider attractive alternatives.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The rumor continues to be November. Too long to wait since launch? Yes, but welcome to Tivo's long list of dragged out affairs. The long wait for Android is not a personal slight against it. That just makes them slow, which we knew for the better part of a decade. We can hope and wish they weren't, but that has always been the long and short of it.


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## Dan203

mr_smits said:


> The only companies that release on iOS only (or significantly before Android) are those fledgling companies that are struggling to even make it to the next quarter.


Zynga, a very popular game company, has several apps that are only available on iOS. Only their top 3 apps are available on Android. (i.e. Words w/Friends, Hanging w/Friends and Draw Something 2) And those three lagged behind their iOS counterparts for years.

I don't know if it's market share, ease of development or the fact that iOS users buy more stuff, but a LOT of companies favor iOS over Android even today. This is not unique to TiVo.


----------



## Grakthis

Dan203 said:


> It's not about whether or not they "can" do it. Pretty much anything can be done with sufficient resources. It's about economics. Unless they think adding Android support is going to significantly boost Stream sales there is very little economic incentive for them to add it. If Android actually supported HLS properly and it was easy to do, then I'm sure they'd do it just for posterity. However it doesn't sound like that's the case. So they have to decide if the resources needed to add support will boost sales enough to make them money. If not then they may still do it for posterity but it'll probably be very low priority with limited resources dedicated to the project.
> 
> That being said TiVo showed an interesting feature at the cable show where basically they had the entire TiVo UI running in a web browser, including the ability to play videos. They didn't really give much details on how it worked, but if that is something they can get going for consumers then you may be able to stream your TiVo shows to pretty much any device.


Totally agree. It is about the economics. That's why any claims of "we're working on it, it just takes a long time" are bogus. They aren't working on it. If they were working on it for a year, it would be done. It would have been done months ago.


----------



## ort

But only TiVo knows the numbers.

If they know that 500,000 people downloaded their iOS app and they know that 250,000 people use it regularly... and they also know that 100,000 people downloaded the Android app and that 50,000 people use it regularly... then those are the only numbers that matter to them.

Total marketshare is meaningless. You go to where your actual users are.



EDIT:

Looking at total reviews on both on the google play store and apple app store...

Now reviews obviously aren't downloads or actual usage stats, but they should paint a general picture.

Google Play
Phone Version: 1,203 total reviews
Tablet Version: 264 reviews

Apple App Store
Universal (iPhone + iPad) 4,956 total reviews

Going by reviews I think it's fairly safe to say that iOS is roughly 3 times as popular amongst TiVo users.

Going beyond that, it possible that the numbers are even further off, because I'd imagine that a very small percentage of users actually bother to review most apps, and the kind of engaged and concerned person who would is way more likely to leave separate reviews for both the phone and tablet versions of the Android app, slightly inflating the number when you add both together.

Probably more notable though is that most of 264 android tablet reviews are 1 star reviews. The iOS app has a 4 star average, which, in the persnickety world of iOS app reviews is actually quite high. People who like an app and have no issues are way less likely to bother reviewing it. So it's pretty safe to guess that an overall larger percentage of android TiVo app users bothered to review it, throwing the numbers off even more.


----------



## atmuscarella

ort said:


> But only TiVo knows the numbers.
> 
> If they know that 500,000 people downloaded their iOS app and they know that 250,000 people use it regularly... and they also know that 100,000 people downloaded the Android app and that 50,000 people use it regularly... then those are the only numbers that matter to them.
> 
> Total marketshare is meaningless. You go to where your actual users are.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Looking at total reviews on both on the google play store and apple app store...
> 
> Now reviews obviously aren't downloads or actual usage stats, but they should paint a general picture.
> 
> Google Play
> Phone Version: 1,203 total reviews
> Tablet Version: 264 reviews
> 
> Apple App Store
> Universal (iPhone + iPad) 4,956 total reviews
> 
> Going by reviews I think it's fairly safe to say that iOS is roughly 3 times as popular amongst TiVo users.
> 
> Going beyond that, it possible that the numbers are even further off, because I'd imagine that a very small percentage of users actually bother to review most apps, and the kind of engaged and concerned person who would is way more likely to leave separate reviews for both the phone and tablet versions of the Android app, slightly inflating the number when you add both together.
> 
> Probably more notable though is that most of 264 android tablet reviews are 1 star reviews. The iOS app has a 4 star average, which, in the persnickety world of iOS app reviews is actually quite high. People who like an app and have no issues are way less likely to bother reviewing it. So it's pretty safe to guess that an overall larger percentage of android TiVo app users bothered to review it, throwing the numbers off even more.


I think you haven't factor in that by default everyone who has bought a stream has downloaded the IOS app and most likely on multiple devices. - For Android users unless we want our phone/tablet to be the remote why would we bother with it? Not to mention as you indicated that most people using android have given the android apps bad ratings. So again why would an android user want to download a app with bad ratings that doesn't do much?


----------



## mr_smits

ort said:


> Probably more notable though is that most of 264 android tablet reviews are 1 star reviews. The iOS app has a 4 star average, which, in the persnickety world of iOS app reviews is actually quite high.


Tivo released their original iOS app 6 months before the Android version -- even longer if you count bug fixes that made the Android app friendly enough to use regularly. Furthermore, the Android app was not even designed with OS updates in mind. I remember receiving a Jelly Bean update and suddenly the Tivo app stopped working on my Galaxy Nexus. Clearly, the team responsible for the Android app really fell down on the job.

Tivo's numbers are useful to know, but again, they suffer from a chicken and egg type situation with Android- app released later the iOS and buggy, and atmuscarella's point that without Stream support Android users have little reason to use what amounts to a glorified remote control.

I'm not sure how much can really be read into online reviews. I suppose the most I can say is that Tivo created a nice app for iOS and created a ****ty app for Android.


----------



## ort

atmuscarella said:


> I think you haven't factor in that by default everyone who has bought a stream has downloaded the IOS app and most likely on multiple devices. - For Android users unless we want our phone/tablet to be the remote why would we bother with it? Not to mention as you indicated that most people using android have given the android apps bad ratings. So again why would an android user want to download a app with bad ratings that doesn't do much?


I really think the TiVo Stream has shipped out in minuscule numbers.

I think it's more of a beta product or proof of concept at this point.


----------



## ort

mr_smits said:


> Tivo released their original iOS app 6 months before the Android version -- even longer if you count bug fixes that made the Android app friendly enough to use regularly. Furthermore, the Android app was not even designed with OS updates in mind. I remember receiving a Jelly Bean update and suddenly the Tivo app stopped working on my Galaxy Nexus. Clearly, the team responsible for the Android app really fell down on the job.
> 
> Tivo's numbers are useful to know, but again, they suffer from a chicken and egg type situation with Android- app released later the iOS and buggy, and atmuscarella's point that without Stream support Android users have little reason to use what amounts to a glorified remote control.
> 
> I'm not sure how much can really be read into online reviews. I suppose the most I can say is that Tivo created a nice app for iOS and created a ****ty app for Android.


Which goes back to what I was saying before. TiVo doesn't want to make a bad Android app. They made a bad Android app because it was either harder to get it right than it was financially worth, or there simple weren't enough users to justify the time and expense of getting it right. Or more likely, a combination of both.

Which makes it more obvious why they aren't pushing the Android version of stream out the door.

More of their customers use iOS and it's cheaper to develop for it.

Anyway, it's a free app. If you're a tech nerd and a TiVo user, you're pretty much guaranteed to at least check it out. Regardless of reviews or whether or not you have a Stream. And at this point, I would say that the vast majority of TiVo users are probably are tech nerds of some sort. You have to make a real conscious effort to be a TiVo customer these days. And supporting it is a pain compared to calling up the cable company and asking for a tech to come hook up a DVR. I bet TiVo customers, as a group, are some of the most well informed and savvy consumers out there. Tech geeks, home theater nerds, etc... You kind of have to be. People in that crowd are going to know the app exists and they are going to download it.


----------



## mr_smits

ort said:


> TiVo doesn't want to make a bad Android app. They made a bad Android app because it was either harder to get it right than it was financially worth, or there simple weren't enough users to justify the time and expense of getting it right. Or more likely, a combination of both.
> 
> Which makes it more obvious why they aren't pushing the Android version of stream out the door.
> 
> More of their customers use iOS and it's cheaper to develop for it.


Tivo doesn't want to make a bad Android app because they already made a bad Android app and it is too hard and expensive to make a good Android app?  I think it's a strategic mistake for Tivo to not prioritize a good, functional Anrdoid app with Stream support. To lead the market and increase customers, you don't abandon the most popular mobile OS in the world because it is cheaper to develop for iOS.

I agree with your comments about Tivo users being tech nerds. You do really have to put effort into being a Tivo customer.


----------



## button1066

mr_smits said:


> To lead the market and increase customers, you don't abandon the most popular mobile OS in the world because it is cheaper to develop for iOS.


If there is no money to be made by doing this then it won't happen. Supporting Android devices is one step up from well meaning but pointless charity work as far as I can see. Android users might say they want more functionality but the truth is they aren't so willing to either pay for it or even use it if they are given it.


----------



## atmuscarella

button1066 said:


> If there is no money to be made by doing this then it won't happen. Supporting Android devices is one step up from well meaning but pointless charity work as far as I can see. Android users might say they want more functionality but the truth is they aren't so willing to either pay for it or even use it if they are given it.


I would be interest in hearing how you decided that TiVo Premiere owners with android tablets and/or phones don't want to stream video from their Premiere DVRs to those devices .


----------



## button1066

atmuscarella said:


> I would be interest in hearing how you decided that TiVo Premiere owners with android tablets and/or phones don't want to stream video from their Premiere DVRs to those devices .


Have you read the other comments on this thread or is your reading comprehension somewhat selective? I didn't even say that TiVo Android users wouldn't want to stream video did I?

There are links that show Android tablet use is *bizarrely* low despite there being so many Android devices sold. Android apps sell less than iOS apps even though the potential market is larger. There are numerous complaints of the TiVo Android app being useless anyway (do YOU even use the thing LOL?) This is all on top of the explanations of the technical difficulties of trying to support Android.

There is even a post by an Android user who explains the reasons he himself hates using his Android tablet.

Real world Android use is miniscule compared to iOS. You have to do more than just ignore that particular elephant in the room otherwise there will never be an end to this particular discussion.


----------



## atmuscarella

button1066 said:


> Have you read the other comments on this thread or is your reading comprehension somewhat selective? I didn't even say that TiVo Android users wouldn't want to stream video did I?
> 
> There are links that show Android tablet use is *bizarrely* low despite there being so many Android devices sold. Android apps sell less than iOS apps even though the potential market is larger. There are numerous complaints of the TiVo Android app being useless anyway (do YOU even use the thing LOL?) This is all on top of the explanations of the technical difficulties of trying to support Android.
> 
> There is even a post by an Android user who explains the reasons he himself hates using his Android tablet.
> 
> Real world Android use is miniscule compared to iOS. You have to do more than just ignore that particular elephant in the room otherwise there will never be an end to this particular discussion.


Yes I am guilty of selective reading; the topic of concern is being able to stream video from a TiVo Premiere to a android tablet or phone.

I don't really care to debate anything about IOS versus Android but have responded to those who for some reason refuse to see that Android has move from a nearly irrelevant tablet operating system to the dominate one in the last 24 months. I certainly don't care what apps people buy or don't buy or what other uses (beyond streaming video from a TiVo Premiere) people have or don't have for their phones and tablets. When it comes to streaming video from a TiVo Premiere to a tablet or phone all of that other stuff is really irrelevant.

Regarding the current TiVo android app - it seems to do what they designed it to do, but it is irrelevant or worthless to me as I find no need to use my tablet as a remote control and the same would be true if I had an IOS device and that was all the IOS app did.


----------



## button1066

atmuscarella said:


> When it comes to streaming video from a TiVo Premiere to a tablet or phone all of that other stuff is really irrelevant.


Well that stuff is not really 'irrelevant' when it has been pointed out a gazillion times that it fully explains why you are unable to stream from your TiVo to your Android device.



atmuscarella said:


> Regarding the current TiVo android app - it seems to do what they designed it to do, but it is irrelevant or worthless to me as I find no need to use my tablet as a remote control and the same would be true if I had an IOS device and that was all the IOS app did.


So what exactly DO people use their Android devices for? Doorstops? Every reply from Android users in this thread just reinforces my impression that these devices are just not used. At all. And believe it or not I didn't start with that opinion.

Also, I can't help but be amused at the fact that you even say the TiVo Android app is 'irrelevant' to you. There is a severe logic fail going on here. This thread is about streaming to the TiVo app which is not supported on Android. Do you want streaming or not? Is it relevant to you or not?


----------



## button1066

I looked the TiVo app up on the Amazon app store for Android. It does more than function as a remote control. It has pretty good reviews as well.

Conclusion: Android users just hate Android. At least the TiVo ones. You can lead them to the apps but they just won't use them.


----------



## Dan203

I'm not sure that logic really applies. The Stream provides a very specific function. If someone buys a Stream then they will use the app, regardless of the usage statistics for their specific platform. 

I really think the problem here is technical. People can argue that TiVo was short sighted, but as it stands the Stream uses a video technology that is only supported correctly on iOS. The only way they can "fix" that is to either a) license a 3rd party SDK or b) completely change the underlining technology they use. Both options have drawbacks. Licensing an SDK is probably easier, but could potentially cost more money especially if it has a per seat cost. Plus they have to deal with support from another company and potential issues that might crop up if that company does not stay abreast of any compatibility issues with future OS updates. Completely changing the technology is obviously a lot harder, plus there are issues with getting approval from CableLabs and having to deal with updating the Stream hardware as well as the app to support this new technology.

If Android properly supported encrypted HLS natively I'm betting they would have Android support available already. Because it doesn't they're stuck with one of the above options which makes development more difficult and more costly. If sales of the Stream have not been great then they may just decide it's not worth the cost.


----------



## button1066

Dan203 said:


> I'm not sure that logic really applies. The Stream provides a very specific function. If someone buys a Stream then they will use the app, regardless of the usage statistics for their specific platform.


It could give them a reason/excuse to use their Android device?

I don't know. If Android owners hate turning the things as much as it seems they do then I doubt the temptation to buy a device that streams video to them would be hard for them to resist.

There is no obvious reason why a Stream enhanced TiVo app would interest Android users more than all the other apps they don't bother with.

To be honest the best analysis I read of Android speculated that its sales are skewed to more price conscious people who are not overly interested in the technology per se and instead just want cheaper gadgets. Not really the average TiVo user I would imagine.


----------



## atmuscarella

button1066 said:


> Well that stuff is not really 'irrelevant' when it has been pointed out a gazillion times that it fully explains why you are unable to stream from your TiVo to your Android device.


The opinions we all post on this forum are just that opinions. We may guess correctly or not, and likely will never know one way or another. If this thread has correctly stumbled upon the reasons TiVo does not currently support streaming to Android devices will never be known (I think Dan has actually outlined the likely reasons quit well). In the end the reasons TiVo does not support streaming to android devices are irrelevant to android devices owners. all that matters is we are not getting support for streaming to android devices. 


button1066 said:


> So what exactly DO people use their Android devices for? Doorstops? Every reply from Android users in this thread just reinforces my impression that these devices are just not used. At all. And believe it or not I didn't start with that opinion.


I would assume Android device users use their devices for whatever they want just the same as IOS devices users do. I would also assume that the way the Android devices are advertised and reviewed allot of the use has to do with streaming video.



button1066 said:


> Also, I can't help but be amused at the fact that you even say the TiVo Android app is 'irrelevant' to you. There is a severe logic fail going on here. This thread is about streaming to the TiVo app which is not supported on Android. Do you want streaming or not? Is it relevant to you or not?


What does not wanting to use an app that makes my tablet a poor remote controls have to do with wanting to streaming video to it? I certainly would like the option to stream video to it and would have purchased a Stream if it worked with my tablet.

I am not loyal to products or companies and use what ever product or device that I think makes sense to me. At this point have have no desire to have a phone or tablet replace a computer or TV so yes I do not use my Tablet extensively but I do use it pretty much every day and have about 150 apps on it of which I would guess I use maybe 5-10 regularly and the others not so much. I am typing this on a computer because dual 24 inch monitors and a full size keyboard and mouse work better for me than a 7 inch tablet screen even with the blue tooth keyboard and mouse I bought for it. If I were sitting in my Gazebo streaming video to my tablet would certainly work better than bring my TV out their on the other hand streaming video to my tablet in my living room in front of my TV seems pretty foolish to me.


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## mr_smits

button1066 said:


> There is no obvious reason why a Stream enhanced TiVo app would interest Android users more than all the other apps they don't bother with.
> 
> To be honest the best analysis I read of Android speculated that its sales are skewed to more price conscious people who are not overly interested in the technology per se and instead just want cheaper gadgets. Not really the average TiVo user I would imagine.


The focus for Tivo should be bringing new customers into their tv ecosystem and retaining existing customers. Providing an app that works with the majority of smartphones in this country and the rapidly growing tablet market should be a priority, not an afterthought. Again, market trends for smart phones were clear years ago. Tablet trends are going the same direction.

Even if the 'analysis' that Android users are price conscious consumers is accurate and the real reason why these users are different than iOS users, it shouldn't matter to Tivo since, again, they are appealing to grow their business, not shrink it by sticking with iOS support only. The Tivo app is free on both platforms, and unless the plan is to begin charging for it, it doesn't matter if one market is more price sensitive. Almost everyone watches tv, and many people want a DVR.

Frankly, the 'analysis' about iOS vs Android users is being continuously misused and misinterpreted to support preconceived notions about superiority of the Apple brand and its more expensive products. Apple still has snob appeal, although like its market share, even that is waning.


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## Dan203

But the Stream is really not intended for phones. It works on phones, but it's geared toward tablets. And 2 years ago when they were designing it Android tablets barely even existed. Now things are changing, but in the US Apple still holds the lead. Unfortunately they've now hit a technological barrier so adding Android support is not as easy as they had probably originally anticipated.


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## button1066

atmuscarella said:


> I would assume Android device users use their devices for whatever they want just the same as IOS devices users do. I would also assume that the way the Android devices are advertised and reviewed allot of the use has to do with streaming video.


And you will go on assuming that despite all evidence to the contrary won't you?



atmuscarella said:


> What does not wanting to use an app that makes my tablet a poor remote controls have to do with wanting to streaming video to it? I certainly would like the option to stream video to it and would have purchased a Stream if it worked with my tablet.
> 
> I am not loyal to products or companies and use what ever product or device that I think makes sense to me. At this point have have no desire to have a phone or tablet replace a computer or TV so yes I do not use my Tablet extensively but I do use it pretty much every day and have about 150 apps on it of which I would guess I use maybe 5-10 regularly and the others not so much. I am typing this on a computer because dual 24 inch monitors and a full size keyboard and mouse work better for me than a 7 inch tablet screen even with the blue tooth keyboard and mouse I bought for it. If I were sitting in my Gazebo streaming video to my tablet would certainly work better than bring my TV out their on the other hand streaming video to my tablet in my living room in front of my TV seems pretty foolish to me.


You're going off on a bit of a tangent here. Little too much unsolicited information about your personal life so I'll just stop here.

For the record the Android app does way more than function as 'a poor remote control'. I have sympathy for Android users who enjoy and get good use out of their devices and who want more TiVo functionality but it really does turn out that these people are in short supply. I'm amazed at how the stereotypes stack up and I honestly used to think I would end up buying an Android device. Dodged a bullet I think.


----------



## button1066

mr_smits said:


> Even if the 'analysis' that Android users are price conscious consumers is accurate and the real reason why these users are different than iOS users, it shouldn't matter to Tivo since, again, they are appealing to grow their business, not shrink it by sticking with iOS support only. The Tivo app is free on both platforms, and unless the plan is to begin charging for it, it doesn't matter if one market is more price sensitive. Almost everyone watches tv, and many people want a DVR.
> 
> Frankly, the 'analysis' about iOS vs Android users is being continuously misused and misinterpreted to support preconceived notions about superiority of the Apple brand and its more expensive products. Apple still has snob appeal, although like its market share, even that is waning.


You grow a business with 'price conscious' people by selling Mcdoubles not Filet Mignon. Try to fob a Filet Mignon off on an Android user and he'll be lecturing you about how 'irrelevant' and 'worthless' steak is in no time. And telling you about his Gazebo.

The analysis alluded to above of Android users is that they are not just Mcdouble eaters but also intimidated by and resistant to geeky tech stuff.

I honestly don't think Apple has much to worry about in terms of a market for its products in the near future. The way to beat them will be to innovate with something better not swamp the market with cheaper devices that no-one uses.


----------



## tlc

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324108204579024853407128012.html



> The TiVo Roamio box, top, and the new TiVo app for iOS, above, lets users choose between watching shows on a TV or on an iPad. An *Android* version is in the works.





> I also used a test build of a revised TiVo app for Apple's iOS mobile operating system that adds support for outside-the-home streaming. TiVo says an *Android* counterpart to this forthcoming iOS app will follow roughly six months later.


Of course, it doesn't explicitly say it will work with the Stream.

As for streaming outside the home:


> In every spot except the Apple store, which had an exceptionally fast connection for a public place, the TiVo streaming quality was terrible, almost unwatchable. Buffering was lengthy, video was fuzzy and stuttering and stopping frequent.
> 
> Granted, all the locations other than the Apple store had very slow Internet connections, generally under 2 megabits per second. But on other services like Netflix, videosometimes even the same showscame in fine at those locales.
> 
> TiVo acknowledges this situation but points out I was testing a very early version of the Roamio's global streaming ability and the iOS app.


----------



## Dan203

In a TV interview yesterday the CEO of TiVo was specifically asked about Android and he said it'll be available this fall. So it looks like it's still on track for a November release.


----------



## KJW

I am always amazed at the lengths fanboys will go to protect their beloved companies, and TiVo's fanboys are as bad as apple's. The whole idea that market share has anything to do with android support for TiVo stream is as irrelevant as the argument that android is somehow harder to program for than iOS. 

The only relevant fact here is that, over a year ago, TiVo promised android support as "coming soon." Was android market share significantly higher a year ago? Was android easier to write apps for a year ago? Of course not. TiVo knew exactly what the circumstances were when it made its promise, and nothing has substantially changed since then. 

At bottom, Tivo made a promise about android support for the stream -- a promise that enticed consumers like me to purchase the product -- and it has completely failed to deliver. I have owned TiVos for over a decade and would love to download shows to my Galaxy Note, but I am limited to my iPad, which is much less convenient for carrying around downloaded content. 

TiVo needs to take some resources away from its new product development and support its customer base by fulfilling its promises for existing products. I am sure I am not the only one who feels cheated and lied to about the stream when it comes to android support, and TiVo is certainly in no position to alienate any customers, particularly those committed enough to the company to invest in new products like the stream.


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## Dan203

That's why you should always buy a product based on what it can do right now and not what is promised for the future. TiVo is not the only company to promise something and then have it get significantly delayed and/or canceled completely. In fact this is not even the first time TiVo itself has done it.

Fool me once...


----------



## KJW

Dan203 said:


> That's why you should always buy a product based on what it can do right now and not what is promised for the future. TiVo is not the only company to promise something and then have it get significantly delayed and/or canceled completely. In fact this is not even the first time TiVo itself has done it.
> 
> Fool me once...


Oh, yes, the final fanboy excuse -- everyone does it!

Actually, not everyone does this. In fact, few companies would simply abandon or woefully delay a major piece of promised functionality. And while some companies might be able to get away with it because they have huge customer followings or a very large product base, TiVo has neither. In fact, TiVo's existence predominantly relies on a very core following for very few products. I would think that TiVo would recognize this and (i) not risk the loyalty of its customers and (ii) support fully the few products it has.

I am, however, amazed that people are not more annoyed at this and keep insisting on making excuses because this particular issue does not affect them. As you said, this is not the first time TiVo has done this -- how long before a feature you care about is abandoned?


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## NotNowChief

Even the new Remote Streaming on the Roamio does not currently work, it is prominently marketed as Coming Soon". Yes, you can copy shows onto your iStuff, just like the Premiere can do with a Stream, but once again (first time being the Stream) a device is sold with the precursor of "coming soon". 

I have honestly spent some time reading things about the Roamio on their website as well as the ads that have populated my Premiere XL4, HDXL, and HD, and they all may be very confusing to those not "in the know". 

Fact is, they are continually alienting a portion of their customer base, and their development should receive a major kick to get in gear with this stuff.

Yes, I think no one should have bought the Stream based on the thought of "Android is coming soon", in the same way that looking back I personally deeply regret dropping $250 on my Mini that I am still waiting for dynamic tuner allocation for, because, TiVo promised it was in the works. Now I have serious concerns that we will never see it as the Premiere line is obsolete hardware and wonder if they will offer any more major updates for it. 

THAT is the exact reason why I did NOT jump and buy a Roamio. The now standard "coming soon" moniker that TiVo uses as standard issue on their last few products:
1) Stream: Buy it now, but with Android support coming soon!
2) Mini: Buy it now, but with Dynamic Tuner Allocation coming soon!
3) Roamio: Buy it now, but with Remote Streaming coming soon!

Dan said it best, "Fool me once..."
Hence forth why I did not order a Roamio Pro with PLS to add to my collection.

While I do consider myself to be a TiVo "fanboy", I am deeply disappointed and HIGHLY critical of their lack of incentive to sell COMPLETE products. 

For those that disagree, I am sure that the Apple fanboys would be absolutely bouncing off of the walls if Android support was offered and not Apple support.

As I have stated many times, if more people spoke up about it and voiced up their concerns instead of being complacent with unfinished products, maybe we wouldn't be where we are now. Call. E-mail. Message. Whatever. Just be on their case about and keep asking when.

The mere fact that so many people are so quick to defend TiVo's actions puzzle me, the fact remains they have many loose ends to tie up.

I will be holding onto my money and not giving TiVo a penny outside of my service fee for any equipment whatsoever that is not "fully-functioning". Until then, I will be sticking with the stuff I have now and not upgrading anything.


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## Dan203

KJW said:


> Oh, yes, the final fanboy excuse -- everyone does it!
> 
> Actually, not everyone does this. In fact, few companies would simply abandon or woefully delay a major piece of promised functionality. And while some companies might be able to get away with it because they have huge customer followings or a very large product base, TiVo has neither. In fact, TiVo's existence predominantly relies on a very core following for very few products. I would think that TiVo would recognize this and (i) not risk the loyalty of its customers and (ii) support fully the few products it has.
> 
> I am, however, amazed that people are not more annoyed at this and keep insisting on making excuses because this particular issue does not affect them. As you said, this is not the first time TiVo has done this -- how long before a feature you care about is abandoned?


I'm not making excuses for anyone. If anything I was saying that TiVo is more guilty of delays and failed promises then anyone. But they're not the only ones that do it either.

If you bought something that didn't fit your needs because you believed them when they said it was "coming soon" that's on you. You should always buy stuff based on what it can do now, not what it might do in the future.


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## sbiller




----------



## ort

mr_smits said:


> The focus for Tivo should be bringing new customers into their tv ecosystem and retaining existing customers. Providing an app that works with the majority of smartphones in this country and the rapidly growing tablet market should be a priority, not an afterthought. Again, market trends for smart phones were clear years ago. Tablet trends are going the same direction.
> 
> Even if the 'analysis' that Android users are price conscious consumers is accurate and the real reason why these users are different than iOS users, it shouldn't matter to Tivo since, again, they are appealing to grow their business, not shrink it by sticking with iOS support only. The Tivo app is free on both platforms, and unless the plan is to begin charging for it, it doesn't matter if one market is more price sensitive. Almost everyone watches tv, and many people want a DVR.
> 
> Frankly, the 'analysis' about iOS vs Android users is being continuously misused and misinterpreted to support preconceived notions about superiority of the Apple brand and its more expensive products. Apple still has snob appeal, although like its market share, even that is waning.


Do you read anything anyone else posts? You keep saying the same stuff over and over and over and over again. It's like you have your fingers in your ears and you're just loudly going LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA...


----------



## button1066

KJW said:


> At bottom, Tivo made a promise about android support for the stream -- a promise that enticed consumers like me to purchase the product


You bought a Stream which you can't use? Why? Or do you mean it enticed you to buy a TiVo?



KJW said:


> I have owned TiVos for over a decade


Android support for Stream enticed you to buy a TiVo ten years before it was announced? What?

I'm not following your logic here.



KJW said:


> I am sure I am not the only one who feels cheated and lied to about the stream when it comes to android support


I'm sure you'll get over it and you'll be complaining on here like a champ about how bad the Android Stream supporting app is in just a few months' time when it gets released.


----------



## KJW

button1066 said:


> You bought a Stream which you can't use? Why? Or do you mean it enticed you to buy a TiVo?
> 
> Android support for Stream enticed you to buy a TiVo ten years before it was announced? What?
> 
> I'm not following your logic here.
> 
> I'm sure you'll get over it and you'll be complaining on here like a champ about how bad the Android Stream supporting app is in just a few months' time when it gets released.


Sorry for your confusion, Button1066, I'll try to type slower.

I have owned TiVos for over 10 years so I had trust in the company. . When they introduced TiVo stream, I was happy because I could transfer shows to my ipad and "soon" to my android phone. . But the android support never came so I was disappoint-- oops, big word -- I was sad. . It's bad when companies promise something so you will buy a product, but then don't provide that feature.  It also makes people not want to buy their products in the future. :down:

I find it amusing that you never address the issue I raised and, instead, end your post by calling me a whiner. Its all the more ironic because I started my original post about how fanboys ignore the real issue in order to steer the conversation to a point they can use to confuse the issue. And here you are not only ignoring the issue, but resorting to personal attacks.

Insulting someone because they are disappointed in a product. Wow.


----------



## KJW

Dan203 said:


> I'm not making excuses for anyone. If anything I was saying that TiVo is more guilty of delays and failed promises then anyone. But they're not the only ones that do it either.
> 
> If you bought something that didn't fit your needs because you believed them when they said it was "coming soon" that's on you. You should always buy stuff based on what it can do now, not what it might do in the future.


Ultimately, yes, you are correct. I bought the product knowing that android support was not yet integrated, so that decision is on me. But that doesn't mean I should not be disappointed that this feature is not out yet. More importantly, it means that TiVo has lost some credibility, if only with me and others similarly situated.

Like I said, I love my TiVos and have had them for over a decade. I participate in tivo surveys every month, and i used to recommend tivo to my friends. It's just sad that I have a little less enthusiasm for a company that I used to hold in such high esteem. And given TiVo's circumstances these days, I don't think they can afford to alienate their most loyal customers.


----------



## Dan203

Well hopefully they are turning it around. It's taken a while but it appears that they might be coming through with all those promises and then some this Fall. We'll see, but I'm cautiously optimistic.


----------



## button1066

KJW said:


> Sorry for your confusion, Button1066, I'll try to type slower.
> 
> I have owned TiVos for over 10 years so I had trust in the company. . When they introduced TiVo stream, I was happy because I could transfer shows to my ipad and "soon" to my android phone. . But the android support never came so I was disappoint-- oops, big word -- I was sad. . It's bad when companies promise something so you will buy a product, but then don't provide that feature.  It also makes people not want to buy their products in the future. :down:
> 
> I find it amusing that you never address the issue I raised and, instead, end your post by calling me a whiner. Its all the more ironic because I started my original post about how fanboys ignore the real issue in order to steer the conversation to a point they can use to confuse the issue. And here you are not only ignoring the issue, but resorting to personal attacks.
> 
> Insulting someone because they are disappointed in a product. Wow.


See, I knew you'd get over it. Chin up.

What issue were you raising by the way? Your own frustration? Not an issue for me so sorry if I didn't pander.


----------



## KJW

button1066 said:


> See, I knew you'd get over it. Chin up.
> 
> What issue were you raising by the way? Your own frustration? Not an issue for me so sorry if I didn't pander.


Never mind. You've convinced me there that are far more frustrating things than a lack of android support.


----------



## button1066

KJW said:


> Never mind. You've convinced me there that are far more frustrating things than a lack of android support.


You're getting there. Almost over it. Deep breaths. Aaaaaand life goes on.


----------



## ilovedvrs

sooooooon!!!!


----------



## bodosom

KJW said:


> Ultimately, yes, you are correct. I bought the product knowing that android support was not yet integrated, so that decision is on me. But that doesn't mean I should not be disappointed that this feature is not out yet. More importantly, it means that TiVo has lost some credibility, if only with me and others similarly situated.


Welcome to the world of consumer electronics. I buy a lot of gadgets and I don't think anything I've purchased in the last 20 years has failed to disappoint to some degree.


----------



## aaronwt

So late Fall? Isn't that around a year after the Stream was launched? That is a crazy amount of time. I'll need to continue using my SlingBox350. I missed the UPS person this evening that had my A/V cables for my two Minis so I could hook up my Hava Platinum and the SlingBox 350. I was hoping to get my TiVo Minis moved around this weekend and connected for remote viewing.


----------



## Dan203

The Stream was released last September, so it'll be over a year by the time it actually lands. That is a crazy long time.


----------



## bciocco

TiVo Stream and Premier on Woot today for $149

http://www.woot.com/offers/tivo-premiere-dvr-stream-bundle-3?utm_source=Daily+Digest&utm_campaign=16f8b7c44e-Daily+Digest+-+20130901+-+Woot&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c5ca76da11-16f8b7c44e-281146662


----------



## ilovedvrs

I hope the android version will be compatible with the yet unannounced new Nexus 10.

My free stream is sitting in the box waiting for the android app!!!


----------



## Balzer

ilovedvrs said:


> I hope the android version will be compatible with the yet unannounced new Nexus 10.
> 
> My free stream is sitting in the box waiting for the android app!!!


Yea, I saw a deal for a Stream on Craigslist. It was new in the box, so I couldn't pass it up. So it will remain in the box until I actually have use for it.


----------



## aaronwt

ilovedvrs said:


> I hope the android version will be compatible with the yet unannounced new Nexus 10.
> 
> My free stream is sitting in the box waiting for the android app!!!


Shouldn't the Nexus 10 be similar to the 2013 Nexus 7 except a faster processor and a higher rez screen? I picked up a Nexus 7 this past weekend. Coming from a 7" FireHD I really like it except for the speakers.


----------



## Grakthis

aaronwt said:


> Shouldn't the Nexus 10 be similar to the 2013 Nexus 7 except a faster processor and a higher rez screen? I picked up a Nexus 7 this past weekend. Coming from a 7" FireHD I really like it except for the speakers.


I'm not expecting the 10 to have a proc bump over the refreshed 7. Maybe it will? I just expect it to have a larger screen and possibly a resolution bump.

Anyways, I can't imagine TiVo not making any theoretical stream app run on Google's reference hardware.


----------



## mr_smits

Grakthis said:


> Anyways, I can't imagine TiVo not making any theoretical stream app run on Google's reference hardware.


Me neither, yet here we are.

...Tivo has said Android support for Stream is due later this year.


----------



## aaronwt

I'm still not going to hold my breath. I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Q1 anyone?


----------



## NotNowChief

This is SO out of hand at this point I can't believe my eyes. I had to read that twice because I thought I was reading it wrong.

I'd be happy with some......any kind of non-iOS browser support, but we can't even get that!


----------



## mr_smits

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Q1 anyone?


March 31, 2014. Will Tivo Stream release support for Android/browsers or will it be delayed?


----------



## aaronwt

At least there should be many, many millions more Android tablets sold in 4Q this year. Especially with the FireHDX tablets coming out in November.


----------



## moyekj

Looks like a lot of these tablets are following Apple's lead in not providing easy external storage (SD cards and/or USB slots for flash). I refuse to buy any device that locks you into limited storage such that you have to rely on Cloud. 16GB for base models is just a total joke if you want to store video on it. Guess I'll just stick to old school laptops...


----------



## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> Looks like a lot of these tablets are following Apple's lead in not providing easy external storage (SD cards and/or USB slots for flash). I refuse to buy any device that locks you into limited storage such that you have to rely on Cloud. 16GB for base models is just a total joke if you want to store video on it. Guess I'll just stick to old school laptops...


You can always attach a flash drive to the USB port. You just need to get the proper USB adapter. With a small adapter that goes to a female USB port. And a tiny USB flash drive, it doesn't take up much space. Of course there is also cloud storage too. As long as you have a fast enough internet connection.


----------



## moyekj

aaronwt said:


> You can always attach a flash drive to the USB port. You just need to get the proper USB adapter. With a small adapter that goes to a female USB port. And a tiny USB flash drive, it doesn't take up much space. Of course there is also cloud storage too. As long as you have a fast enough internet connection.


 USB Flash drives supposedly don't work with Kindle (no drivers):
http://www.amazon.com/forum/kindle?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1D7SY3BVSESG&cdThread=Tx6PQ5YMVT361J
I have no interest in Cloud storage since just to name 1 issue my upload speeds are limited to 2 Mbps.


----------



## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> USB Flash drives supposedly don't work with Kindle (no drivers):
> http://www.amazon.com/forum/kindle?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1D7SY3BVSESG&cdThread=Tx6PQ5YMVT361J
> I have no interest in Cloud storage since just to name 1 issue my upload speeds are limited to 2 Mbps.


I've used one with mine before to test it out.


----------



## button1066

I'm pretty sure you can plug a kindle into a pc and it will show up as a mass storage device. You can copy content to and from it. I'm also sure this is one of the things that android owners see as an advantage (no need for itunes). For all I know there is a way to stream your videos from a pc to the kindle via wifi, itunes allows this and is actually pretty good at it so I guess Android will have its equivalent. Plus you don't have to buy a model with low RAM if you don't want one. All moot when Stream support finally arrives because you can stream direct from tivo.


----------



## aaronwt

button1066 said:


> I'm pretty sure you can plug a kindle into a pc and it will show up as a mass storage device. You can copy content to and from it. I'm also sure this is one of the things that android owners see as an advantage (no need for itunes). For all I know there is a way to stream your videos from a pc to the kindle via wifi, itunes allows this and is actually pretty good at it so I guess Android will have its equivalent. Plus you don't have to buy a model with low RAM if you don't want one. All moot when Stream support finally arrives because you can stream direct from tivo.


But with the stream you can also send the file to the tablet for vieiwng later right? I hope so because this is the only reason I picked up a 32GB Nexus 7 instead of the 16GB version.


----------



## button1066

aaronwt said:


> But with the stream you can also send the file to the tablet for vieiwng later right? I hope so because this is the only reason I picked up a 32GB Nexus 7 instead of the 16GB version.


Definitely and the quality is outstanding.


----------



## moyekj

aaronwt said:


> But with the stream you can also send the file to the tablet for vieiwng later right? I hope so because this is the only reason I picked up a 32GB Nexus 7 instead of the 16GB version.


 Yes so that's my point. If you want to go on vacation and have say 20 shows transferred to your Kindle 32GB it not going to cut it either. Ideally you'd put the videos on 1 or more flash drives and the Kindle can then play them from the flash drives. If that indeed does work my interest in the Kindle would be much higher.


----------



## button1066

moyekj said:


> Yes so that's my point. If you want to go on vacation and have say 20 shows transferred to your Kindle 32GB it not going to cut it either. Ideally you'd put the videos on 1 or more flash drives and the Kindle can then play them from the flash drives. If that indeed does work my interest in the Kindle would be much higher.


You can easily fit 20 shows using the Stream on a 32gb kindle. Doesn't sound like a very fun vacation though but each to his own.

I've got a 90 minute show on my phone right now and it's only 630mb for reference.


----------



## Dan203

There are two download options. 1GB per hour and 610MB per hour. The quality of the 610MB option is good enough for simple stuff, but for an action show on iPad I usually go for the 1GB option.

I doubt TiVo will allow shows to be stored on a removable SSD. They're encrypted but I think it might cause problems with the app indexing if the card was add/removed while the app was running.


----------



## arvoris

Just perfect.  By then my chemo should be complete. Come on guys. As others are saying Androids are used by far more people than Iwhatever. Most people can't even afford Iwhatever. I am not a guru by any means. Any ideas as to how to easily transfer to my android? I'd love to be able to watch my shows while taking chemo.:up:
Angela



Dan203 said:


> As a phone OS that is true, but the Stream is aimed mainly at tablets not phones.
> 
> I've explained this before but there is actually a technical reason for the Android delay. The Stream uses a technology called encrypted HLS. Apple invented that technology so it is supported on all iOS devices. However Android did not add support for encrypted HLS until v4. And the only mass market tablets that use Android v4+ are the Kindle Fire HD and the Nexus, both of which weren't even released until late last year. So until like August of last year there wasn't even an Android tablet on the market capable of using a Stream. And actual mass market adoption of those tablets didn't happen until the holidays. So there was really no substantial market for an Android version of the Stream until about 2 months ago.
> 
> That being said a TiVo employee confirmed via this forum that they started work on a Android version back in November. A 6 month development cycle is typical for these sorts of things so I'm guessing we're looking at an April release date for Android support. Perhaps during that cable show where they announced the Stream hardware last year?


----------



## arvoris

Apparently you've never been on a limited budget, your choices are down to two...and neither one gives you what you need because of corporate greed? And perhaps it's not being bitter but frustrated? JMO



button1066 said:


> So sorry you can't afford nice things but crying about it makes you look ridiculous. How anyone can be so bitter over consumer products is laughable.


----------



## arvoris

Turn it around. If it were I*** just how bitter and angry would I*** etc. users be???? I think it would be even worse. Weird. No. Human. Yes. Let's chill out with the unfriendly comments.  We just want solutions.



ort said:


> It's crazy just how bitter and angry many android fans are.
> 
> It's just weird.


----------



## arvoris

Absolutely! Said so well. Politics have completely infected us all. Right now there are no elections. But believe me there are commercials all over the place saying hateful things about people who do not deserve it. And it will only get worse. I don't know what the answer is...but sure wish there were one.



Austin Bike said:


> Beats the hell out of me. I use iOS and android. I think people today are divided on everything. It's like our political process has infected all of our lives.
> 
> I pretty much use everything across a large network of devices. Everything is good for some functions and bad for others. Nothing is perfect.


----------



## thorpemark

I'm old enough to remember the original PC vs MAC "wars" when MAC was a totally closed device.. Apple software, hardware, everything through apple. 

That Apple was able to sell the idea that "smart" people chose Apple because "it just works" was just brilliant. The "smart" people have been paying a premium for the Apple brand.. to show their "smarts".. or ability to pay a premium or whatever.. for a long time now.

That this "war" has moved onto Android vs IOS is perfectly understandable. But Apple has turned to Intel processors and COTS hardware all over the place and to, essentially, unix/linux in their OS.. none of it really invented by Apple. I bet most of the world believes Apple invented the tiny music player with the iPod.

Amazing what Apple marketing has done.

Now give me my Android app for tivo dammit!


----------



## VideoGrabber

Dan203 said:


> The Stream was released last September, so it'll be over a year by the time it actually lands. That is a crazy long time.


The real problem is simply that TiVo misnamed the product.

They should have named it the iStream, and avoided a lot of confusion and disappointment.



(and yes, I'm aware that HP has [or had] an App by that name.)


----------



## Dan203

Apparently it got pushed again and is not expected until early next year. There is a rumor it might make an appearance at CES in January. So that's nearly 1.5 years.


----------



## chelman

VideoGrabber said:


> The real problem is simply that TiVo misnamed the product.
> 
> They should have named it the iStream, and avoided a lot of confusion and disappointment.
> 
> 
> 
> (and yes, I'm aware that HP has [or had] an App by that name.)


:up: YES! Call it iStream! so people get forewarned that only works with Apple.


----------



## chelman

thorpemark said:


> I'm old enough to remember the original PC vs MAC "wars" when MAC was a totally closed device.. Apple software, hardware, everything through apple.
> 
> That Apple was able to sell the idea that "smart" people chose Apple because "it just works" was just brilliant. The "smart" people have been paying a premium for the Apple brand.. to show their "smarts".. or ability to pay a premium or whatever.. for a long time now.
> 
> That this "war" has moved onto Android vs IOS is perfectly understandable. But Apple has turned to Intel processors and COTS hardware all over the place and to, essentially, unix/linux in their OS.. none of it really invented by Apple. I bet most of the world believes Apple invented the tiny music player with the iPod.
> 
> Amazing what Apple marketing has done.
> 
> Now give me my Android app for tivo dammit!


:up: YES! Give us our Android app!


----------



## davefred99

As a new Tivo Roamio owner I want my Android Stream App now. I am so tired of being treated as a second class citizen by the "I" whatever snobs. Android now outsells Apple and we deserve and should demand better. I vote with my wallet so if they are waiting for me to buy an IOS device hell will freeze over. Everything Apple is over priced IMHO.


----------



## Dan203

There are several articles linked to in this thread that explain why Android devices always come second. But basically it boils down to two things...

1) iOS is easier to develop for because there is less hardware fragmentation. 
2) iOS users spend more money on accessories and apps.

Also when the Stream was developed 2+ years ago, iOS still had a pretty handy lead over Android here in the US. And if you looked at just tablets they had something like 80%. Android didn't make real inroads on the tablet side until the Nexus and Kindle Fires came out, and those were released about the same time as the Stream.

Now why it's taken them another 1.5 years to develop the Android version I have no idea. Obviously they've committed to the technology by putting inside the new Roamios.


----------



## Grakthis

As we've discussed before, that's the real head scratcher. If you committed to the technology so much that you NAMED your new hardware after the idea, it should not have taken you this long to get the app out cross-platform. Windows 8, desktop, windows phone, android, HTML5, any and all.


----------



## Dan203

Well they're a little more limited then someone like Sling because whatever they use has to be approved by CableLabs. So I'm not sure all those platforms are really practical. In fact someone said that an inside source told them the holdup with Android is that CableLabs doesn't think the platform is secure and they're having to do extra work to lock down the recordings better.


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> Well they're a little more limited then someone like Sling because whatever they use has to be approved by CableLabs. So I'm not sure all those platforms are really practical. In fact someone said that an inside source told them the holdup with Android is that CableLabs doesn't think the platform is secure and they're having to do extra work to lock down the recordings better.


Browser support, Android, and iOS support should be the target platforms since that would include about 100% of the possible market.

I'm not sure I believe the CableLabs excuse. How are all the other Android streaming apps able to secure their platform? Comcast has an Android app (supporting streaming live channels on Android 2.2!), the major cable companies all do the same. Is there a distinction between what they are doing vs what Tivo is doing?


----------



## moyekj

mr_smits said:


> I'm not sure I believe the CableLabs excuse. How are all the other Android streaming apps able to secure their platform? Comcast has an Android app (supporting streaming live channels on Android 2.2!), the major cable companies all do the same. Is there a distinction between what they are doing vs what Tivo is doing?


 Agreed. Cox has a similar "Contour" app that runs on iOS and Android as well. Of course CableLabs is the cable company consortium and they don't have to abide by the same restrictions they impose on TiVo.


----------



## Dan203

mr_smits said:


> Browser support, Android, and iOS support should be the target platforms since that would include about 100% of the possible market.
> 
> I'm not sure I believe the CableLabs excuse. How are all the other Android streaming apps able to secure their platform? Comcast has an Android app (supporting streaming live channels on Android 2.2!), the major cable companies all do the same. Is there a distinction between what they are doing vs what Tivo is doing?


For whatever reason TiVo chose to use encrypted HLS for the Stream. Whether that decision was influenced by CableLabs, the Stream hardware, or just a decision they made I'm not really sure. But they're kind of stuck with it now unless they do a complete overhaul.

HLS is supported on all versions of iOS. It's only supported on Android 4.0+ unless you use a 3rd party SDK, and not supported at all in Windows Metro without a 3rd party SDK. The only modern browser to support it natively is Safari, but it's supported by Flash so they could make it work in other browsers via the Flash plug-in.

But again I'm not sure how much oversight CableLabs has in this process. The CableCARD spec doesn't have provisions for any of this, so I assume TiVo has to get special approval to do it at all. With Mini streaming there is precedent, so they can just do a "me too" implementation. But AFAIK there are no other cable DVRs that allow you to stream to a mobile device either in or outside the home. There are cable companies with their own streaming or VOD apps, but those are likely treated differently through specific deals with the content providers.

Really the only other devices on the market that compete with the Stream are the offerings from Dish and DirecTV. And they both have no oversight other then whatever deals they make with their content partners. Heck Dish is actually being sued over their Slingbox stuff, so they apparently don't even have the deals they just did it and prepared to deal with the fall out.

Oh and the new HDHomeRun has this feature but it is an ATSC or clear QAM only device. If they come out with a CableCARD version and it supports all the platforms then I'll agree that CableLabs has no effect on this.


----------



## ort

thorpemark said:


> I'm old enough to remember the original PC vs MAC "wars" when MAC was a totally closed device.. Apple software, hardware, everything through apple.
> 
> That Apple was able to sell the idea that "smart" people chose Apple because "it just works" was just brilliant. The "smart" people have been paying a premium for the Apple brand.. to show their "smarts".. or ability to pay a premium or whatever.. for a long time now.
> 
> That this "war" has moved onto Android vs IOS is perfectly understandable. But Apple has turned to Intel processors and COTS hardware all over the place and to, essentially, unix/linux in their OS.. none of it really invented by Apple. I bet most of the world believes Apple invented the tiny music player with the iPod.
> 
> Amazing what Apple marketing has done.
> 
> Now give me my Android app for tivo dammit!


The whole "all of apple's success is due to marketing" trope is intellectually lazy.

Different people value different things. Just because someone chooses a different product than you do does not mean that they are just dupes of marketing. That's small-minded thinking.


----------



## chart

Is there any update on STream for Android? I have iPads at home but the Android phone/tablet is what travels with me.


----------



## Dan203

Nope. We're still hoping they announce something at CES, but it's looking less and less likely.


----------



## tommylicious

There is such radio silence on it that I wouldn't be surprised if Tivo have abandoned Android streaming.


----------



## aaronwt

I thought they were showing it behind close dooors?

Although at this rate, Amazon Prime streaming will show up first.


----------



## bradleys

aaronwt said:


> I thought they were showing it behind close dooors?
> 
> Although at this rate, Amazon Prime streaming will show up first.


We know that they had some "behind closed door" conversations because Dave Zatz reported he declined an invitation based on the DNR restrictions.

We do not know what TiVo was presenting / discussing.

I can't tell you how disappointed I am with TiVo at CES this year. I really thought with an open booth they were ready to showcase some real strategic effort. Unfortunately, they just wanted a publicity stunt.

Do I think it is coming? Yes. When? Who knows, my best guess is as good as anyone else's... Based on what we know - spring?

Too long in my opinion and I don't even own an android device!


----------



## jrtroo

Tivo does not normally release a bunch of data on new products during CES. It gets lost in all of the other shiny toys- seems weird that every year folks get all excited and then let down by their own hype.

Tivomargret just emphasized today that it is "in the coming months".


----------



## slowbiscuit

Yeah and they've been saying that ever since the Stream came out. No one believes anything Tivo says about this, timeline-wise.


----------



## mr_smits

tommylicious said:


> There is such radio silence on it that I wouldn't be surprised if Tivo have abandoned Android streaming.


I'm beginning to agree with you. I read this a couple months back:

"TiVo representatives told us there is no definite timeframe for streaming to come to the Android app, but it is in the company's plans. "
Ars Article: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013...ording-and-roaming-but-cable-keeps-calling/4/

That line bothered me greatly as it shows Tivo isn't even close enough to give a rough timeframe for Android app streaming.


----------



## derekmski

Any new information on an Android release date?


----------



## davezatz

bradleys said:


> We know that they had some "behind closed door" conversations because Dave Zatz reported he declined an invitation based on the DNR restrictions. We do not know what TiVo was presenting / discussing.


While *at the show*, it was specifically reiterated to me by TiVo marketing personnel that "Android" was being demo-ed privately. I assume the conversations were broader than just Android, but I didn't press and obviously choose to stay excluded so that I may cover topics at my discretion and in any manner (without embargo dates, requests for edits, being chastised for tone, etc).


----------



## mr_smits

davezatz said:


> While *at the show*, it was specifically reiterated to me by TiVo marketing personnel that "Android" was being demo-ed privately. I assume the conversations were broader than just Android, but I didn't press and obviously choose to stay excluded so that I may cover topics at my discretion and in any manner (without embargo dates, requests for edits, being chastised for tone, etc).


Dave- based on your experience, what can we read into private demo-ing of Android Streaming? Lack of confidence in the product is obvious, but is there something more Android fans can get from this?


----------



## Dan203

There was a rumor somewhere that they might be having trouble getting the app approved by CableLabs because of security concerns. I'm not actually sure if they are required to get the individual apps approved, or just the protocol, but it makes sense. Android is a lot more hacker friendly then iOS so CableLabs could be concerned about people bypassing the CCI bit and capturing protected content. Although it could just as easily be that the Android software simply isn't done yet.


----------



## mrizzo80

Kinda strange they felt the need to give private demo's of existing functionality. I realize this will be "new" to Android whenever it lands, but this type of functionality has existed for nearly a year and a half.


----------



## ellinj

I don't get the security concern given that Tivo Desktop allows me to create video files that are unencumbered for all programs without the flag set, seems the security needs to be on the Tivo not the device, and they already have that in place.


----------



## Dan203

ellinj said:


> I don't get the security concern given that Tivo Desktop allows me to create video files that are unencumbered for all programs without the flag set, seems the security needs to be on the Tivo not the device, and they already have that in place.


Streaming allows you to stream even protected shows. And since it's HLS they would be really easy to capture with the proper hack.


----------



## chart

Dan203 said:


> Streaming allows you to stream even protected shows. And since it's HLS they would be really easy to capture with the proper hack.


Bingo. Tivo is scared of the movie studio lawsuits.


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## ellinj

Dan203 said:


> Streaming allows you to stream even protected shows. And since it's HLS they would be really easy to capture with the proper hack.


So give me an app with can't steam protects shows. Better then nothing.


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## Dan203

People with TWC and Cox, who protect everything, wouldn't be very happy with that. They're already limiting out of home streaming to non-protected content and there are a TON of people b*tching about it.

They're much better off holding it back until they can figure out the security problems and get proper approval from CableLabs. Android users have waited so long, do you really think they'll be happy with a half a$$ solution that is less then what's available on iOS?


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## aaronwt

Hell No!!


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## ellinj

Dan203 said:


> People with TWC and Cox, who protect everything, wouldn't be very happy with that.


Not Cox in RI, Only thing protected is HBO, Showtime, Etc. And even if they did, my use case I would be very happy with being able to get NBC, ABC, CBS, etc even if it was all I could get.


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## Balzer

chart said:


> Bingo. Tivo is scared of the movie studio lawsuits.


That's a good point. Tivo has secured a LOT of funds through patent litigation... I am sure they are being extra careful to not be on the other end of that...


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## slowbiscuit

Dan203 said:


> They're much better off holding it back until they can figure out the security problems and get proper approval from CableLabs. Android users have waited so long, do you really think they'll be happy with a half a$$ solution that is less then what's available on iOS?


LOL this is Tivo we're talking about, almost guaranteed it's going to be a half-assed solution no matter what. Just like not being able to stream anything you want OOH even though you can do it on your LAN.


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## MrDell

ellinj said:


> Not Cox in RI, Only thing protected is HBO, Showtime, Etc. And even if they did, my use case I would be very happy with being able to get NBC, ABC, CBS, etc even if it was all I could get.


Competition is Great!! Cox in RI has Verizon Fios to compete with so they have to be careful what they do. I found them bending over backwards to make sure their product, service and prices are equal to or below Verizon. Before Verizon came to town, Cox was the only act around and they pretty much did what they wanted. Today it is a whole different story. I love it!!


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## marinrain

so they are worried about Android stream but not Apple (iOs) ?? makes no sense...either they are worried or not


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## Dan203

That was just a rumor posted somewhere, it may not be true.


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## Grakthis

marinrain said:


> so they are worried about Android stream but not Apple (iOs) ?? makes no sense...either they are worried or not


Well, iOS is harder to hack, has uniform hardware (if some kind of hardware specific encryption is needed) and has uniform software that is controlled by Apple.

They can be sure, if you're running this, the hardware and software looks like THIS.

With android, you can't do that.

Remember when netflix came out, they had the same hurdles. They did a slow roll out to android, starting with specific hardware and software and then slowly expanding. Rumor was, it was some of the same stuff. Specific encryption hardware was needed and had to be approved and specific software, etc.

I totally get that. And I'm an android user, but I still get why android would come second. What I don't get is why it's been, what, over a year now? That's nuts for a company that just said they want to focus more on software than hardware.


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## KJW

Grakthis said:


> Well, iOS is harder to hack, has uniform hardware (if some kind of hardware specific encryption is needed) and has uniform software that is controlled by Apple.
> 
> They can be sure, if you're running this, the hardware and software looks like THIS.
> 
> With android, you can't do that.
> 
> Remember when netflix came out, they had the same hurdles. They did a slow roll out to android, starting with specific hardware and software and then slowly expanding. Rumor was, it was some of the same stuff. Specific encryption hardware was needed and had to be approved and specific software, etc.
> 
> I totally get that. And I'm an android user, but I still get why android would come second. What I don't get is why it's been, what, over a year now? That's nuts for a company that just said they want to focus more on software than hardware.


All the excuses and speculation on behalf of TiVo are nonsense -- everything being said was known by the company when they promised over a year-and-a-half ago that android support was "coming soon." And none of these issues are a serious problem because, as you point out, other companies have already done it. Lots of companies.

TiVo has simply decided to allocate its resources elsewhere, which is a pretty crappy way to treat your existing customers. Only more so because TiVo refuses to address the issue other than to say "not yet" every six months.


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## davezatz

RCN believes TiVo is now looking at June:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/426403460150358016


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## jwbelcher

davezatz said:


> RCN believes TiVo is now looking at June:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/426403460150358016


That would give "In the coming months" a new perspective.


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## PCurry57

I don't buy the excuse that it's a security concern with cable labs. DirecTV Genie Go streams to android. 

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


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## Dan203

PCurry57 said:


> I don't buy the excuse that it's a security concern with cable labs. DirecTV Genie Go streams to android.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


DirecTV has their own deals with the content providers and can do whatever those deals allow them to do. Cable Labs is a consortium of multiple cable companies all with their own deals and very little love for TiVo. While the rumor may not be true, I can easily see where it could be given the players involved.


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## Dan203

davezatz said:


> RCN believes TiVo is now looking at June:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/426403460150358016


Wow! I can't believe it is taking so long. Although someone posted in another thread that the 3rd party development firm they think TiVo was using for Android got bought out, so that might have thrown a wrench into things.


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## NotNowChief

I got a postcard in the mail yesterday from TiVo. Yes, United States Postal Service, from TiVo. 

It contained a "special upgrade offer" for my XL4 only, to buy a Roamio at $100 off, and transfer my current subscription plan to it. 

This is pure comedy how they can't get this supported.

I've watched them put up the World Trade Center building from an office window in less time it is taking TiVo to support Android.


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## ilovedvrs

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2014/01/tivo-lays-hardware-design-team-gets-ready-exit-hardware/'

screw tivo.... Stream will never get android support.

I am selling my unopened one while I can...


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## jrtroo

How is that even remotely relevant? I don't recollect Tivo MAKING android devices. Hell, they never made their own boxes anyhow, they designed them. This is a no big deal.


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## aaronwt

davezatz said:


> RCN believes TiVo is now looking at June:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/426403460150358016


June 2014 or 2015?


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## dearing

davezatz said:


> RCN believes TiVo is now looking at June:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/426403460150358016


I've read June as well, from Reddit:


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tivo/comments/1vohsd


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## mr_smits

aaronwt said:


> June 2014 or 2015?


Why stop there? My vote is for June 2016.


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## aaronwt

So still no word yet?


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## Grakthis

aaronwt said:


> So still no word yet?


Is it June yet?


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## jpwbikes

TiVo just revamped their Mobile App page. iOS used be at the top of the page and now Android is. Could an announcement be around the corner?

http://tivo.com/discover/mobile


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## ckelly33

jpwbikes said:


> TiVo just revamped their Mobile App page. iOS used be at the top of the page and now Android is. Could an announcement be around the corner?
> 
> http://tivo.com/discover/mobile


I don't know...but didn't it used to say that the Anrdroid app was 'upcomng'? Now it just differentiates what the two can/can't do. Seems discouraging....but then again - I'm a Debbie Downer


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## jpwbikes

No, they had the comparison charts before. They just reformatted them. I'm hoping the move of Android to the top of the page is a sign that streaming is near! 

Sent from my DROID MAXX using Tapatalk


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## hamlet00

7 months since last post to this thread, has everyone given up?

I bought a Roamio when it was released because it was marketed with the promise of Android streaming to come. I never imagined that I'd still be waiting a year later.


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## ckelly33

Over at zatznotfunny.com it was reported that it was due to arrive this month. In beta testing now.


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## waynomo

Check out this other thread. It should be this month.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=513903


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## Rose4uKY

I just got Tivo stream for Android on my phone. The app for my tablet says it's not supported. My tablet is an Asus Transformer Prime running 4.1.1 I think. Me and husband just tried it on our phones it works good. Can't wait to watch one of my shows at work tomorrow on dinner break.


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## bicker

How is this supposed to work? I'm getting an error when I try to watch something on my Nexus 10 through the updated TiVo app.


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## waynomo

bicker said:


> How is this supposed to work? I'm getting an error when I try to watch something on my Nexus 10 through the updated TiVo app.


It's working on my Nexus 10. Are you rooted or have a non standard rom?

Try rebooting. Also you need to be on your home network when you initially set it up.


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## waynomo

Rose4uKY said:


> I just got Tivo stream for Android on my phone. The app for my tablet says it's not supported. My tablet is an Asus Transformer Prime running 4.1.1 I think. Me and husband just tried it on our phones it works good. Can't wait to watch one of my shows at work tomorrow on dinner break.


Isn't the Asus using an Intel chip? Intel chips are not supported.


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## Rose4uKY

Really is that why we can't get it to work? I don't know if it's using an Intel chip or not I just know it's an Android tablet with 4.1.1 and my husbands Asus has 4.2.2 his is a slightly different model than mine. Mine has a 1.3 Tegra processor does that have to do with Intel I don't know?



waynomo said:


> Isn't the Asus using an Intel chip? Intel chips are not supported.


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