# Game of Thrones "The Watchers on the Wall" 6/08/14 S4E9



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Well that was exciting. I was sad to see Pyp and Grenn die. I had to laugh out loud when the kid gave Jon the, "You're welcome, bro!" head nod after killing Ygritte.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

That was a pretty intense episode. I'm not sure how they're going to wrap everything up in the last episode.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I've could've sworn Sam killed the big Thenn. But was glad Jon put a hammer in his head.

And why would they chain up Tormund?!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> That was a pretty intense episode. I'm not sure how they're going to wrap everything up in the last episode.


Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll leave something for the next few seasons.


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## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

Giants riding mammoths...cool. 

Oh, and Jon Snow still knows nothing.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I was a bit concerned when the opening credits had Kit Harington and 'bout no one else.


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## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

Not that formidable a wall after all. 


Sent from my iPhone


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

I thought the episode was horribly dull. Guess I don't think 60 minutes of fighting is interesting.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

I don't think Castle Black had enough men to bring that Scythe back up. That thing was HUGE.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

So is Thorne alive or dead? Who's next in command if he's out of the picture?

Good episode, if a bit silly. Seems like the place to climb the wall would be a mile or two in either direction instead of right underneath the defenders and their arrows, rocks, oil, and giant scythe thing.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Ment said:


> I don't think Castle Black had enough men to bring that Scythe back up. That thing was HUGE.


Maybe it is counter weighted like the elevator.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

So, by my unofficial count, Castle Black started out with 102 men and is now down to -1,050 

Jon Snow killed that Phen guy because of what that killer at Craster's Keep taught him...very nice touch. I kept waiting for Jon's head to get chopped off as he held Ygrit.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ment said:


> I don't think Castle Black had enough men to bring that Scythe back up. That thing was HUGE.


Janos Slynt would be the obvious candidate. After all, I heard somewhere that he has leadership experience as Commander of the City Watch of King's Landing...


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> So is Thorne alive or dead? Who's next in command if he's out of the picture?


I think it would be the guy that hid in the pantry, right? He was the one that was put in charge up top.

It seems really strange to me that the outer gate of the tunnel wasn't locked in any way, and they just relied on it being really heavy to prevent it from being lifted. I'm pretty sure it would have some kind of lock...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

zordude said:


> It seems really strange to me that the outer gate of the tunnel wasn't locked in any way, and they just relied on it being really heavy to prevent it from being lifted. I'm pretty sure it would have some kind of lock...


It probably used to, but we live in an era when nobody believes that creatures capable of lifting it exist, so why bother keeping it in good repair?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

zordude said:


> I think it would be the guy that hid in the pantry, right? He was the one that was put in charge up top.
> 
> It seems really strange to me that the outer gate of the tunnel wasn't locked in any way, and they just relied on it being really heavy to prevent it from being lifted. I'm pretty sure it would have some kind of lock...


and if one Giant could lift it, 2 would have done it much easier. Then all they had to do is put something under it to keep it propped open...


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I thought it was an awesome episode, much better than I expected. I checked the time for the first time, and there was only 10 minutes left to go.

So GoT "world" question. Are the people at Castle Black the ONLY defenders of the Wall, or, can they signal back and get reinforcements from others in the realm? As Jon Snow mentioned, they maybe could hold out for one or two more days, but, if they could get reinforcements, they possibly could hold out longer? OTA, it's possible that any reinforcements might just be too far away.


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I thought it was an awesome episode, much better than I expected. I checked the time for the first time, and there was only 10 minutes left to go.
> 
> So GoT "world" question. Are the people at Castle Black the ONLY defenders of the Wall, or, can they signal back and get reinforcements from others in the realm? As Jon Snow mentioned, they maybe could hold out for one or two more days, but, if they could get reinforcements, they possibly could hold out longer? OTA, it's possible that any reinforcements might just be too far away.


Their are only 3 forts out of the original 12 that are manned today. Eastwatch by the sea, Castle Black and the Shadow Tower. Castle Black had the most men and was the most heavily fortified.

So their were really along with no real reinforcements to bring in.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

su719 said:


> Their are only 3 forts out of the original 12 that are manned today. Eastwatch by the sea, Castle Black and the Shadow Tower. Castle Black had the most men and was the most heavily fortified.
> 
> So their were really along with no real reinforcements to bring in.


I wasn't necessarily thinking from the other forts, but from other parts of the realm. We know Winterfell or what's left of it is somewhat close (but probably still many days away). I guess without modern communication, there's probably no way to get help. But maybe I just missed something.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

We only a limited number of episodes each season. It seems to be a waste to spend an entire episode on one battle, without progressing any of the other story lines by an inch. It also doesn't fit with the ending of last week's episode. Not to mention, although I will, that large segments were just a mass of faceless men fighting each other inside the castle.

Color me disappointed overall.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> I wasn't necessarily thinking from the other forts, but from other parts of the realm. We know Winterfell or what's left of it is somewhat close (but probably still many days away). I guess without modern communication, there's probably no way to get help. But maybe I just missed something.


The Watch used to be enough. But it's been so long since there's been a real threat, nobody believes a real threat exists any more, so they figure there's no need for more than a skeleton crew to keep the Wildlings at bay.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I wasn't necessarily thinking from the other forts, but from other parts of the realm. We know Winterfell or what's left of it is somewhat close (but probably still many days away). I guess without modern communication, there's probably no way to get help. But maybe I just missed something.


Bolton is supposed to help (As Ned Stark would have). But Bolton is still just leaving Moat Cailin; which is at the south end of his territory. We know Winterfell is weeks away from the Wall (I'm thinking a month), and he's a couple of weeks away from Winterfell.

They are on their own unless Stannis has been on his way (we have no clue where Stannis is) and magically appears just in time with an army bought with the Braavos money.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Family said:


> I thought the episode was horribly dull. Guess I don't think 60 minutes of fighting is interesting.


I agree.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Anubys said:


> and if one Giant could lift it, 2 would have done it much easier. Then all they had to do is put something under it to keep it propped open...


Maybe they are like giants in the Harry Potter world. Dumb but strong.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mwhip said:


> Maybe they are like giants in the Harry Potter world. Dumb but strong.


Mance isn't dumb. Instead of the mammoth, all he needed was to tell those 2 giants to lift the gate!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh, and lucky that Ygritte didn't let go of her arrow as she got shot


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Mance isn't dumb. Instead of the mammoth, all he needed was to tell those 2 giants to lift the gate!


Maybe he assumed that the keepers of the gate were not dumb, and it was likely locked?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

And we all could have predicted her last words would have been "You know nothing Jon Snow"


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

su719 said:


> Their are only 3 forts out of the original 12 that are manned today. Eastwatch by the sea, Castle Black and the Shadow Tower. Castle Black had the most men and was the most heavily fortified.
> 
> So their were really along with no real reinforcements to bring in.


There were 19 forts I think.



Bob Coxner said:


> We only a limited number of episodes each season. It seems to be a waste to spend an entire episode on one battle, without progressing any of the other story lines by an inch. It also doesn't fit with the ending of last week's episode. Not to mention, although I will, that large segments were just a mass of faceless men fighting each other inside the castle.
> 
> Color me disappointed overall.


They did this in season two with the Battle of the Blackwater and the story overall did not suffer for it.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. (dot)


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I wasn't necessarily thinking from the other forts, but from other parts of the realm. We know Winterfell or what's left of it is somewhat close (but probably still many days away). I guess without modern communication, there's probably no way to get help. But maybe I just missed something.


I'd guess that it's a time/distance issue. They could probably request help via Raven Express, but it would probably take longer than they could hold out just for the ravens to get to their destination, let alone for help to reach the Wall.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> Maybe he assumed that the keepers of the gate were not dumb, and it was likely locked?


Or maybe he assumed it would be better to have a smashed gate than one being held up by his strongest fighters...


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I thought it was pretty boring as well.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or maybe he assumed it would be better to have a smashed gate than one being held up by his strongest fighters...


once it's up, you prop it open with a lever of some kind!

Do I have to do ALL the thinking around here?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Interesting mix of feelings being posted here. I guess it comes down to how invested some are in the Night's Watch, or in particular invested in Sam and Jon, since they are who we should care about at the Wall.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

allan said:


> I'd guess that it's a time/distance issue. They could probably request help via Raven Express, but it would probably take longer than they could hold out just for the ravens to get to their destination, let alone for help to reach the Wall.


They did request help via Raven Express, from all five Kings


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

Bob Coxner said:


> We only a limited number of episodes each season. It seems to be a waste to spend an entire episode on one battle, without progressing any of the other story lines by an inch. It also doesn't fit with the ending of last week's episode. Not to mention, although I will, that large segments were just a mass of faceless men fighting each other inside the castle.
> 
> Color me disappointed overall.


I'd agree - with a season of only 10 episodes to put only one scene/character in a whole 60 minutes, was a bit much. I really wanted them to at least put 10 minutes in to the situation at King's Landing, or with Arya and The Hound.

It quite had the feel of wanting to be as big as Blackwater Bay, but it wasn't.

As a viewer I had no connection to Mance, his wildlings, and minimal familiarity with the Phens and the other Wildling commander that was captured in Castle Black.

Where as during the battle of Blackwater Bay, there were tons of (relevant/primary) characters that were involved in/around the battle.

This is why I felt this episode was a bit flat for me.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I thought it was a great episode, and the CGI was top notch! The only thing that didn't make sense to me was how they were able to hold the South side of the wall. If Castle Black only has 100 or so men, and half of them were on top of the wall, that would only leave 50 down below. It seemed like the group that Tormund led had way more men than that, and they were probably much more competent fighters than most of the Night's Watch.

My guess is that they now have no choice but to collapse the tunnel before the Wildlings return. Since there is only one more episode left, though, we probably won't see any more of The Wall until next season.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Someone remind me why the Wall is so important to the attackers? So they can freely migrate south?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Interesting mix of feelings being posted here. I guess it comes down to how invested some are in the Night's Watch, or in particular invested in Sam and Jon, since they are who we should care about at the Wall.


I don't particularly care about the Night's Watch story, at least until this episode. I've found most of Jon's forays North of the wall pretty boring actually, but for some reason, I found this battle scene intriguing. Maybe part of it is how they set up Sam's decision whether to join his brothers or to protect the girl and her baby. And then I enjoy Jon taking charge. To me those two stories, for this episode were compelling. As were what happened with Ygrite.

I know many of us are wrapped up in the Tyrion story line and perhaps the Sansa/Littlefinger or Arya/Hound, but I think this was necessary. I'm not sure they could have done the battle justice by jumping around and spending a few minutes on it.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Someone remind me why the Wall is so important to the attackers? So they can freely migrate south?


I believe that is correct. If they do not escape to the South, they will all be killed by the White Walkers. This threat is why Mance Rayder was able to unite all the Wildling clans.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Someone remind me why the Wall is so important to the attackers? So they can freely migrate south?


My thought was, with Winter coming, they need to move south to survive, plus there's the White Walkers to contend with. With the Wall not very heavily fortified and the North of the realm in flux with the Starks out of the picture, they probably felt now was the perfect time to strike. IF they win the battle and the Wall is permanently breached, ultimately there will be a battle between the Boltons and the Wildlings, as both move into the North.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> They did this in season two with the Battle of the Blackwater and the story overall did not suffer for it.


And I think their goal was to try to follow that same "epic battle" feel in this episode. However, in my opinion, it didn't reach that level.

Part of it was what Bob mentioned about the faceless people fighting. The fighting also started earlier in this episode, so it went on longer.

I still enjoyed it well enough, but would have preferred that they trimmed 5 - 10 minutes of the Wall battle, and given us that plus another 6-7 minutes to fill up the hour of moving forward other storylines.



Anubys said:


> once it's up, you prop it open with a lever of some kind!


Mance only has his knowledge of the state of the Wall when he left plus what Jon told him to go on. He likely thinks there is an order of magnitude more men than there actually are defending the Wall.

If he knew that there were only 6 men defending the tunnel (and 1 at the time he was trying to dislodge the gate), he probably would have had the giants hold open the gate to get enough men through to take the tunnel, and then permanently open it.

But since he didn't know that, leaving the door down while trying to dislodge it served as a shield to protect his men from those in the tunnel while they were trying to complete their task.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

That is why this episode wasn't as good as Blackwater. In the Battle of Blackwater Bay there were 3 factions we cared about, Stannis &Co attacking, Tyrion &Co defending, and Cersei, Sansa and the other women in the "panic room". This battle we cared a lot about the Night's Watch, somewhat less about Mance's army and that was it. 

What Jon Snow should do is offer Mance and the wildlings some kind of Amnesty if they help defend against the White Walkers and otherwise behave themselves going forward, but this being Game of Thrones they will probably make the worst possible decision for the long term survival of Westeros.


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Janos Slynt would be the obvious candidate. After all, I heard somewhere that he has leadership experience as Commander of the City Watch of King's Landing...


He didn't look all that alive when Sam went back to get Gilly after the battle.



zordude said:


> I think it would be the guy that hid in the pantry, right? He was the one that was put in charge up top.
> 
> It seems really strange to me that the outer gate of the tunnel wasn't locked in any way, and they just relied on it being really heavy to prevent it from being lifted. I'm pretty sure it would have some kind of lock...


One of the first shots of the gate showed chains and a lock that they hooked the mammoth to. They broke the locks but couldn't get the gate pulled out before the mammoth BBQ.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

gweempose said:


> I believe that is correct. If they do not escape to the South, they will all be killed by the White Walkers. This threat is why Mance Rayder was able to unite all the Wildling clans.


I felt there was more to it than this. It sounded like the Wildlings had been driven out of the North by the kingdom, and they wanted their ancestral home back. My gut feeling was that Mance united them not so much out of the white walker threat, but out of the desire to recapture the North.



Shaunnick said:


> Interesting mix of feelings being posted here. I guess it comes down to how invested some are in the Night's Watch, or in particular invested in Sam and Jon, since they are who we should care about at the Wall.


To me, it felt like this was an episode that just had to happen. The battle has been coming for a season or two. It was inevitable, so they had to spend time on it.

Unfortunately, this made the whole thing very predictable, and thus very boring. We knew there was going to be a two-front attack on the castle. We knew that many of the watch would be killed (most of them we don't care about anyway). We knew that Mance wouldn't take the castle and invade the North, because a million wildlings running around Westeros would sorta wreck every other plot line that's going on.

For me, the only suspense was in wondering which of Ygritte and Jon Snow would be killed. I figured Jon Snow would be safe, but with GRRM you never know. That led me to suspect it would be Ygritte who wouldn't make it, and I was correct.

The next Jon Snow scene will be more interesting, when he puts his 'very bad plan' into play and tries to kill Mance. He's right that it's the only thing they can do, but I think he's wrong that this would cause the wildlings to disperse.

I still contend that having a million wildlings breach the wall and invade Westeros would wreck the rest of the story. Nobody south of the wall seems to be in a position to help. I have to wonder if the white walkers will finally show up and resolve this. The wildlings are all stuck out in the open and quite literally backed against a wall. Easy prey.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JoeyJoJo said:


> He didn't look all that alive when Sam went back to get Gilly after the battle.


Janos Slynt was very much alive when Sam found him hiding behind the door.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smbaker said:


> I still contend that having a million wildlings breach the wall and invade Westeros would wreck the rest of the story. Nobody south of the wall seems to be in a position to help. I have to wonder if the white walkers will finally show up and resolve this. The wildlings are all stuck out in the open and quite literally backed against a wall. Easy prey.


You've added an extra zero there...it's "only" 100,000


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> And we all could have predicted her last words would have been "You know nothing Jon Snow"


Was that in the book? It seemed awfully fan-servicey.


cherry ghost said:


> They did request help via Raven Express, from all five Kings


Yeah, everyone asking why they didn't ask for reinforcements needs to remember that that's all they've been doing, and people have been dismissing the threat.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

NoThru22 said:


> Was that in the book? It seemed awfully fan-servicey.


I bet it is in the book. This author is famous for giving the readers what they expect and want!


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

If anything, Ygritte says it more often in the books.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

At the end, Jon asks who is around to give anyone orders. Are we to assume from this that Thorne is dead? He was wounded but alive and giving orders last we saw him. And yes, if he's dead, is the coward Slynt next in line? If so, would anyone take orders from him at this point? 

The idea that a dead Mance means the wilding army falls apart is consistent with what Mance told Jon last season. Rayder finally gathered all the warring clans together. Without Rayder, who would lead the army? Rayder believed it would fall apart without him. He's probably right. It's not like Tormund and the Thenns seemed to be good buddies fighting for a common cause.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

gweempose said:


> The only thing that didn't make sense to me was how they were able to hold the South side of the wall. If Castle Black only has 100 or so men, and half of them were on top of the wall, that would only leave 50 down below. It seemed like the group that Tormund led had way more men than that, and they were probably much more competent fighters than most of the Night's Watch.


Going by the numbers running up to the gate, I don't think there were more than 50. And probably about 10% were killed by arrows on the way up. (In other words, they were decimated. )

Their original plan with non-traitor Jon Snow was to catch the Night's Watch off guard, and simply hold them off long enough to open the gate. That's why they only sent a small team over the wall. They did not want to be noticed until it was too late.



smbaker said:


> I have to wonder if the white walkers will finally show up and resolve this. The wildlings are all stuck out in the open and quite literally backed against a wall. Easy prey.


One thought I had at the beginning was that the white walkers might have been waiting for Mance to breach the gate. If he had been successful, then as his army was moving toward the tunnel, their army would come out and there would be an epic battle between their two giant armies.

I thought that perhaps Mance and his army would have been wiped out, and what was left of the wildlings and Night's Watch south of the Wall would have had to stop fighting and work together to hold off the white walker army until they could collapse the tunnel.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> (In other words, they were decimated. )


How DARE you use that word properly! Un-American! Commie! TALIBAN!


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

smbaker said:


> We knew that Mance wouldn't take the castle and invade the North, because a million wildlings running around Westeros would sorta wreck every other plot line that's going on.


I don't think we knew this at all.

The North has been kind of lacking in the story department, and an occupied force of 100K wildlings could make things interesting.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> Was that in the book? It seemed awfully fan-servicey.


Ygritte book spoiler



Spoiler



In the book, Jon finds her dead after the battle. He didn't even know who killed her. Just that the arrow in her body wasn't his.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I root for the White Walkers. I hope they're the ultimate occupants and rulers of Westeros. F people.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

zordude said:


> I don't think we knew this at all.


Which part? We've known about wildlings sacking villages south of the wall all season. We knew they were waiting for Mance's attack to commence north of the wall (100k, not 1 million, but still a sizable force). Thus a two-front attack against the castle was inevitable. The staffing of Castle Black made it very likely that many of the watch would be killed.

This whole episode was the fight that fit those circumstances. That's why, IMO, it was boring.



zordude said:


> The North has been kind of lacking in the story department, and an occupied force of 100K wildlings could make things interesting.


Indeed. I still think it would render so much of the politics of Westeros moot that it's not a viable occurrence at this time in the plot. A common enemy unites people.

Maybe GRRM will surprise me and decide to unite Westeros against the Wildling invasion. I rather doubt it though; uniting people doesn't seem his style.

More likely, I think White Walkers hit the Wildlings, and then for no good reason retreat for the next couple of years so that the tagline "Winter is coming" can continue to be used.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Which part?


Sorry I meant to cut more from the quote than I did.



> We knew that Mance wouldn't take the castle and invade the North, because a million wildlings running around Westeros would sorta wreck every other plot line that's going on.


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> I know many of us are wrapped up in the Tyrion story line and perhaps the Sansa/Littlefinger or Arya/Hound, but I think this was necessary. I'm not sure they could have done the battle justice by jumping around and spending a few minutes on it.


I had the same trouble reading the books. Since each chapter or group of chapters is told from a character's viewpoint, there were times that I would turn the page and yell, "NOOO. I don't want to go back to The Wall. I want to stay with Arya, or Tyrion."


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Honora said:


> I had the same trouble reading the books. Since each chapter or group of chapters is told from a character's viewpoint, there were times that I would turn the page and yell, "NOOO. I don't want to go back to The Wall. I want to stay with Arya, or Tyrion."


I think it would be interesting to read the books one character at a time. I don't think I'm likely to ever invest the time into it, but I think it would give a different perspective on some things.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

MarkL said:


> At the end, Jon asks who is around to give anyone orders. Are we to assume from this that Thorne is dead? He was wounded but alive and giving orders last we saw him. And yes, if he's dead, is the coward Slynt next in line? If so, would anyone take orders from him at this point?


Just to be clear (and I know you're talking about during the battle, and not afterwards), there is a difference between who is next in command during a Lord Commander's reign (battle events or otherwise), and who becomes the next Lord Commander. Each Lord Commander has his Chief of Staff, assistants and whatnot. These pertain both in day to day life as a crow, and during battles.

But if the Lord Commander dies, there is no automatic succession. There may be a temporary LC (probably whoever was CofS), but only until an election. The Night's Watch elects its own Lord Commander. So upon Thorne's death (did we actually see him die?), Janos Slynt would probably become the temporary head, with elections to be scheduled. If anyone survives to vote.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> I thought it was pretty boring as well.


I loved it! I was ready for some action. I think the dialog on this show is top-notch, the political and family drama stuff is great, but I was ready for a battle and this has been building up for a long time and had to happen.

I'll take this episode any day over some of the other storylines that (to me) have gotten tired and boring (Theon, Bran, Arya, Dany, etc). A week without Reek is a good week. Maybe at some point the Bran storyline will become interesting, but it hasn't happened yet. I'm an Arya fan but she and the hound have been wandering around forever. I didn't miss her this week. I love the Khaleesi more than life itself, but mostly when she is kicking ass and making speeches about kicking ass and not so much when she's trying to "rule" and discussing dead goats. And we had to know that the Tyrion storyline would be held out for the finale.

Yes, most of the people in this episode were nobodies who I barely recognized, but the Wall and the Wilding invasion is a big story. Maybe THE big story in the grand scheme of things. Part of the appeal of the GOT story to me is that all of the cool political stuff happening in King's Landing doesn't really mean anything because of the looming Dragons vs Ice Zombies showdown.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> I know many of us are wrapped up in the Tyrion story line and perhaps the Sansa/Littlefinger or Arya/Hound, but I think this was necessary. I'm not sure they could have done the battle justice by jumping around and spending a few minutes on it.


As it's bee said before, the show runners know how the whole story ends. Whenever there is a seemingly disproportionate amount of screen time spent on a character or event I assume it means they know it's going to be important to the whole story later. I assume that with this too.

Throughout the series the phrase, "Winter is coming" has been very prevalent. The wildlings are united against the wall because as bad as getting killed by the Night's Watch is, something worse is coming and they want to get away from it. It's not much of a stretch for me to believe that the "something worse" will be important to the story going forward.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

This show has too many off-screen battles. Glad we saw the entire battle in this episode. We get palace intrigue every episode. It was time for some butt kicking.

I was all "Go, direwolf, go!" when Sam freed him from the cage. Then he started eating the first guy he killed and just stayed there instead of moving on. I kept expecting him to help Jon out but that was his only screen time.

Why would the side with the 1,000:1 advantage withdraw? They had that advantage at the battle's start then it looked like they killed at least 50 Castle Black guys.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Why would the side with the 1,000:1 advantage withdraw? They had that advantage at the battle's start then it looked like they killed at least 50 Castle Black guys.


Well, they failed at going over the Wall, and they failed at going under the Wall (losing their big guns in the process). So at that point, their only option was to stand there and let the Watchmen rain arrows down on them, or withdraw and regroup, and try to come up with a new plan.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

http://www.wired.com/2014/06/game-of-thrones-battle-castle-black/

Well, that was no Battle of the Blackwater. Much like in the penultimate episode of Season 2, Game of Thrones put its kaleidoscope of perspectives on hold to focus in on a single, massive event: the Battle of Castle Black. But while this episode may boast the same director and some similar visual spectacle, it sadly lacked the heft that made "Blackwater" one of the finest episodes in the series.

Demanding a full hour for one storyline from a show like Game of Thrones-especially when there are so many other compelling plotlines to follow-can seem like an act of hubris, but in "Blackwater," Peter Dinklage's riveting performance as Tyrion pulled it off with aplomb. Sadly, we have no equivalent performance to anchor the long-awaited showdown between the Night's Watch and the Wildlings: Jon is no Tyrion; Kit Harrington is no Peter Dinklage; and the supporting cast of Sam, Thorne, Pyp and Grenn are no Joffrey, Cersei, Sansa and the Hound. As necessary as the battle may be to the larger story, it comes across as "important" far more than "interesting," a bit like mandatory history homework.

Yes, there were some stirring moments-from the falling of the scythe to Alliser Thorne's surprising turn into an actual hero-but it never coalesced into anything larger than those moments. Rather than the overwhelming, Helm's Deep-style siege of 100,000 men against 100 it promised, we got a big fight writ small-less an epic battle than a gritty, claustrophobic sortie hacked out in tunnels and courtyards. It's also a fight with far less significance than we might have hoped. Unlike the crushing defeat of Stannis at the Blackwater, this battle ends with Jon's buzz-killing observation that it was little more than a minor setback for a foe that is still overwhelmingly likely to kill them all-a rather disappointing payoff for an episode that was already Blackwater-lite.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, they failed at going over the Wall, and they failed at going under the Wall (losing their big guns in the process). So at that point, their only option was to stand there and let the Watchmen rain arrows down on them, or withdraw and regroup, and try to come up with a new plan.


Was that their only giants and mammoths?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Overall, I was a little underwhelmed. Didn't really like the changes from the book. But I did think the visuals were pretty spectacular.


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## PotentiallyCoherent (Jul 25, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I felt there was more to it than this. It sounded like the Wildlings had been driven out of the North by the kingdom, and they wanted their ancestral home back. My gut feeling was that Mance united them not so much out of the white walker threat, but out of the desire to recapture the North.
> 
> To me, it felt like this was an episode that just had to happen. The battle has been coming for a season or two. It was inevitable, so they had to spend time on it.
> 
> ...


What if instead of killing Mance, Jon teams with him to take the North from Bolton?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Janos Slynt would be the obvious candidate. After all, I heard somewhere that he has leadership experience as Commander of the City Watch of King's Landing...


He's as much of a hero of King's Landing as King Joffrey.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> This show has too many off-screen battles. Glad we saw the entire battle in this episode. We get palace intrigue every episode. It was time for some butt kicking.
> 
> I was all "Go, direwolf, go!" when Sam freed him from the cage. Then he started eating the first guy he killed and just stayed there instead of moving on. I kept expecting him to help Jon out but that was his only screen time.
> ...


Because...


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> and if one Giant could lift it, 2 would have done it much easier. Then all they had to do is put something under it to keep it propped open...


Also, all of the machinery for the gate, including the lifting mechanism, seems to be OUTSIDE the tunnel. The engineer who designed that needs to be fired. Or iced. Or something.










Fortunate that the giants and the other wildings seem to be particularly stupid. Why did they waste time with the mammoths pulling at the gate? All they had to do was manually operate the unlocking and lifting mechanism that is presumably just outside and above the gate.

Of course, the defenders in the tunnel were not much better. While the giant was charging, instead of turning him into an arrow pincushion or sticking spears and swords through the gate to impale him, they just stood there chanting while the giant rammed the gate.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

PotentiallyCoherent said:


> What if instead of killing Mance, Jon teams with him to take the North from Bolton?


I don't know about _taking_ the North, but I'd like to see some alliance against the WW. The wildlings are people after all. And it looks the Men in Black could use some help with the wall and there's lots of room in the North. OTOH, the raiding recent raiding was pretty nasty. (It made Ygritte pretty irredeemable for me.)

I really hope they resolve the Tyrion thread next week. That's too big of a cliff to hang on. There was no sign of Tyrion in the "scenes from next week".


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Someone remind me why the Wall is so important to the attackers? So they can freely migrate south?


And why did the Night's Watch forget about the secret passage that the Samwell and Hodor et. al, used?

Somebody remind me why Mance said, "I told them that our survival depends on going south." Because "Winter is coming" and/or the White Walkers?
And the Wildlings were people who lived in the north until the realm took their land chased them north of the wall? Why were they chased?

And the whole Nights Watch system: "You're a criminal, so you will be exiled to join the clergy commandos that protect us all and _take an oath that you are required by your honor to obey._ So they depend on outcasts, rejects, and criminals to serve with honor?


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Also, all of the machinery for the gate, including the lifting mechanism, seems to be OUTSIDE the tunnel. The engineer who designed that needs to be fired. Or iced. Or something.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't believe there is a mechanism inside _or_ outside of the gate. I'm pretty sure the gate is opened from inside. I seem to remember scenes earlier with someone on the wall seeing the Rangers come back and shouting down to open the gate. I don't think there's a lock or keypad on the outside.  I think the mammoths were trying to pull it off completely, but were stopped by the mammoth BBQ (I love that phrase). That weakened or broke the mechanical pieces enough that the giant could lift the gate. That's the way I took it.



john4200 said:


> Of course, the defenders in the tunnel were not much better. While the giant was charging, instead of turning him into an arrow pincushion or sticking spears and swords through the gate to impale him, they just stood there chanting while the giant rammed the gate.


I think they were scared. The one was using the chant to break them out of their paralysis. Chanting was part of their defense, per se.



tlc said:


> I don't know about _taking_ the North, but I'd like to see some alliance against the WW. The wildlings are people after all. And it looks the Men in Black could use some help with the wall and there's lots of room in the North. OTOH, the raiding recent raiding was pretty nasty. (It made Ygritte pretty irredeemable for me.)


The Wildlings have made it pretty clear that they don't like kings, so I think that would be a tough, though not impossible, alliance.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Someone remind me why the Wall is so important to the attackers? So they can freely migrate south?





MikeAndrews said:


> Somebody remind me why Mance said, "I told them that our survival depends on going south." Because "Winter is coming" and/or the White Walkers?
> And the Wildlings were people who lived in the north until the realm took their land chased them north of the wall? Why were they chased?


"Winter is coming" has a couple of aspects. Yes, it's going to get colder, but that's not the real threat to the Wildings, or the Westerosi. When Winter comes the White Walkers/Others come too. The Wildlings aren't trying to get away from bad weather, they're trying to get away from scary, baby stealing, undead folks.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

tlc said:


> I really hope they resolve the Tyrion thread next week. That's too big of a cliff to hang on. There was no sign of Tyrion in the "scenes from next week".





Spoiler



Yes there was.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> I thought it was pretty boring as well.


Overall I guess I liked the episode, but I spent a lot of it cringing over the total lack of tactics from the Night Watch.

A decently trained unit along the lines of a roman legion would have slaughtered the wildlings as they swarmed into the interior courtyard.

Although like most fight scenes in tv shows, it's hard to tell whether the uncontrolled melee is just because that's what's easy to film, or what the directors want, or if that's suppose to actually reflect the lack of coordinated training on the part of the characters.

Not to mention that the southern defenses of Castle Black are a bad joke. There are reasons that castles have arrow slits and not windows large enough to climb through. And don't even get me started on that tunnel; I've hated it's massive vulnerability since the first episode that showed it.

If I was designing that wall I'd put a low (comparatively) outerwork of defenses north of the wall and you'd have to winch men and horses down from the top of the wall to the north side. (I expect many of the horses used for patrols would just normally be kept in the sacrificial northern outerworks.

100,000 men show up and you just abandon the northern outerworks, pull back up to the top of the wall and drop things on any giants or mammoths trying to pull down or smash through hundreds or yards of solid ice.

<oops, got myself started on the tunnel>


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

tlc said:


> I don't know about _taking_ the North, but I'd like to see some alliance against the WW. The wildlings are people after all. And it looks the Men in Black could use some help with the wall and there's lots of room in the North. OTOH, the raiding recent raiding was pretty nasty. (It made Ygritte pretty irredeemable for me.)
> 
> I really hope they resolve the Tyrion thread next week. That's too big of a cliff to hang on. There was no sign of Tyrion in the "scenes from next week".





Spoiler



He's present in the preview, if only for a second.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

pendragn said:


> I don't believe there is a mechanism inside _or_ outside of the gate. I'm pretty sure the gate is opened from inside.


Did you look at the screenshot I posted? There is no mechanism on the inside. Nothing at all on the inside. Anything that lifts (or unlocks) the gate must be on the outside.

What you say about no mechanism on the inside or outside makes no sense. There must be something to lift the gate. It is lifting in the screenshot I posted. Since there is no mechanism inside, the lifting mechanism is obviously outside.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Was that their only giants and mammoths?


Those are the only ones we saw, even in the aerial shots. So if they have more, they weren't at the "front line"...


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Jonathan_S said:


> If I was designing that wall I'd put a low (comparatively) outerwork of defenses north of the wall and you'd have to winch men and horses down from the top of the wall to the north side. (I expect many of the horses used for patrols would just normally be kept in the sacrificial northern outerworks.
> 
> 100,000 men show up and you just abandon the northern outerworks, pull back up to the top of the wall and drop things on any giants or mammoths trying to pull down or smash through hundreds or yards of solid ice.


Right. That seems so obvious. But I have gotten the impression, from several incidents now, that the writers and directors of the show do not have any clue when it comes to tactics for primitive battles. Martin himself seems to have something of a clue, but he also tends to skip over the details of the tactics in many cases. That leaves the showrunners to invent the details themselves, and they do not seem up to the task.

Of course, if there were no gate, then there would be no reason for the Wildings to attack there at all. Just go to some place on the wall far removed from defenders, and then slowly smash through the ice and/or send everyone capable up climbing.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

One more thing: My son plays Clash of Clans on his ipad. Seeing those shots of the armies approaching, especially with the giants, made me think of the Clash of Clans commercials (and that my son would love this episode but he's waaay too young to see this show).


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

tiassa said:


> What Jon Snow should do is offer Mance and the wildlings some kind of Amnesty if they help defend against the White Walkers and otherwise behave themselves going forward,





pendragn said:


> The Wildlings have made it pretty clear that they don't like kings, so I think that would be a tough, though not impossible, alliance.


This. The Wildlings are "the free folk." They are not going to like law and order. On the other hand, with White Walkers at their back, if you could convince them that they aren't getting through the wall, they might agree to almost anything. Whether they would do as they promised is another question.

I thought this was a good episode--not the best ever by any means.

So John is going to kill Mance without a sword? Or any supplies? Or even a hat?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

PotentiallyCoherent said:


> What if instead of killing Mance, Jon teams with him to take the North from Bolton?


It's still a massive influx of refugees. The Westerosis might not like that (though they might not have much choice, either).



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, they failed at going over the Wall, and they failed at going under the Wall (losing their big guns in the process). So at that point, their only option was to stand there and let the Watchmen rain arrows down on them, or withdraw and regroup, and try to come up with a new plan.


One of the advantages that Mance should have had was that he should have known the defenses used on The Wall (the oil barrels, the scythe, etc). With the exception of attacking the castle with the raiding party from the other side, his tactics seemed rather oblivious.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

tlc said:


> I don't know about _taking_ the North, but I'd like to see some alliance against the WW. The wildlings are people after all. And it looks the Men in Black could use some help with the wall and there's lots of room in the North. OTOH, the raiding recent raiding was pretty nasty. (It made Ygritte pretty irredeemable for me.)
> 
> I really hope they resolve the Tyrion thread next week. That's too big of a cliff to hang on. There was no sign of Tyrion in the "scenes from next week".





Spoiler



There was.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Anyone care to offer some spoiler-free Tyrion predictions for the season finale?

1) Will he live? (and escape)

2) Will he die?

3) Will we have to wait until next season to find out?

I'll be kinda pissed if it turns out to be #2 or #3.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> Did you look at the screenshot I posted? There is no mechanism on the inside. Nothing at all on the inside. Anything that lifts (or unlocks) the gate must be on the outside.
> 
> What you say about no mechanism on the inside or outside makes no sense. There must be something to lift the gate. It is lifting in the screenshot I posted. Since there is no mechanism inside, the lifting mechanism is obviously outside.


The mechanism goes up _into_ the wall.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> They did this in season two with the Battle of the Blackwater and the story overall did not suffer for it.


And most people consider that episode to be the best of the series so far.



john4200 said:


> Did you look at the screenshot I posted? There is no mechanism on the inside. Nothing at all on the inside. Anything that lifts (or unlocks) the gate must be on the outside.
> 
> What you say about no mechanism on the inside or outside makes no sense. There must be something to lift the gate. It is lifting in the screenshot I posted. Since there is no mechanism inside, the lifting mechanism is obviously outside.


Just because you can't see the mechanism in that screenshot doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If the mechanism is outside the wall, how could the Crows inside the tunnel open and close it from the inside? I think we have to assume that all of the mechanisms are buried in the ice above or on the sides of the tunnel, not outside the wall.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> And why did the Night's Watch forget about the secret passage that the Samwell and Hodor et. al, used?


That passage has been forgotten about by the Night's Watch. I don't know how Sam found it in the TV show but there was a very specific reason he found it in the books. If you want to know hop over to the other thread for more detail.



MikeAndrews said:


> Somebody remind me why Mance said, "I told them that our survival depends on going south." Because "Winter is coming" and/or the White Walkers?
> And the Wildlings were people who lived in the north until the realm took their land chased them north of the wall? Why were they chased?


Because Mance and the Wildlings know the WW's do exist and unless they get south of the wall they are all totally f*****.



MikeAndrews said:


> And the whole Nights Watch system: "You're a criminal, so you will be exiled to join the clergy commandos that protect us all and _take an oath that you are required by your honor to obey._ So they depend on outcasts, rejects, and criminals to serve with honor?


There was a time the Night's watch was respected and criminals were given a chance to atone for their crimes by taking the black and serving with honor.

At this point in Westoros history no one takes it seriously anymore and sees it as a massive community service project to keep the Wildlings out.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Did you look at the screenshot I posted? There is no mechanism on the inside. Nothing at all on the inside. Anything that lifts (or unlocks) the gate must be on the outside.
> 
> What you say about no mechanism on the inside or outside makes no sense. There must be something to lift the gate. It is lifting in the screenshot I posted. Since there is no mechanism inside, the lifting mechanism is obviously outside.


When Sam requested the gate be opened to let Jon out, he faced the inside of the tunnel and waved his torch. So the mechanism is inside the tunnel. It's just not next to the gate, itself.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> That passage has been forgotten about by the Night's Watch. I don't know how Sam found it in the TV show but there was a very specific reason he found it in the books. If you want to know hop over to the other thread for more detail.


Can you discuss this in the "Only-Up-Until-The-Latest-Episode" book thread? I'd be interested to hear about that.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> The mechanism goes up _into_ the wall.


No, you can see that it is on the outside. While it is possible there could be some locking mechanism or side-lift mechanism that is partially embedded in the wall, it does not make sense from what we saw, since the giant just decided to lift it.

Anyway, you can see that the gate goes up in a frame on the outside of the wall. And from the previous screenshot I posted, you can see that there is nothing around the gate on the inside.

It is just a really stupid design. Obviously done by someone who is not familiar with these sorts of fortifications.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

BeanMeScot said:


> When Sam requested the gate be opened to let Jon out, he faced the inside of the tunnel and waved his torch. So the mechanism is inside the tunnel. It's just not next to the gate, itself.


No, it is obviously NOT on the inside of the tunnel. This is obvious if you look at the gate from both sides.

Unless you think the mechanism is magic. Sam signals the magician to spell the gate open.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> And the whole Nights Watch system: "You're a criminal, so you will be exiled to join the clergy commandos that protect us all and _take an oath that you are required by your honor to obey._ So they depend on outcasts, rejects, and criminals to serve with honor?


The French Foreign Legion has been composed of outcasts, rejects and criminals for 300 years. [They are a bit more selective currently] They do serve with honor. Almost like the Night Watch, the FFL only serves outside of France itself. In fact, I wonder if GRRM took the FFL as his inspiration for the Night Watch?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Foreign_Legion

Historically, the American film industry portrayed the Foreign Legion as, in the words of Neil Tweedie of The Daily Telegraph, having "a reputation as a haven for cut-throats, crooks and sundry fugitives from justice" and also having many men escaping failed romances.[4] Tweedie said that since the legion had asked few questions of its new recruits, it became "an ideal repository for the scum of the earth."[4] As of 2008, according to Tweedie, the "image as a haven for ne'er-do-wells is largely out of date" since the legion now conducts extensive background checks via Interpol.[4

Legionnaires were, in the past, forced to enlist under a pseudonym ("declared identity"). This disposition exists in order to allow people who want to start their lives over to enlist, and the French Foreign Legion held the belief that it was more fair to make all new recruits use declared identities.[4] French citizens can enlist under a declared, fictitious, foreign citizenship (generally, a francophone one, often that of Belgium, Canada or Switzerland).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> No, it is obviously NOT on the inside of the tunnel. This is obvious if you look at the gate from both sides.
> 
> Unless you think the mechanism is magic. Sam signals the magician to spell the gate open.


So how exactly do you propose that the Night's Watch are opening closing the tunnel from inside the tunnel or from Castle Black? Do you think they're signalling someone on top of the wall who is then lifting the gate from way up there?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> Not to mention that the southern defenses of Castle Black are a bad joke. There are reasons that castles have arrow slits and not windows large enough to climb through.


Here is why there are little to no defenses on the southern side of Castle Black. I'll spoilerize as I don't think it's been covered in the show, but it has no spoilers of any pertinence.


Spoiler



Centuries ago, one of the Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch turned bad and became a despot. At that time, Castle Black was as strongly defended to the south as to the north. It took years and a huge battle to defeat him. The leaders of Westeros decided to remove most all defenses to the south, so no Lord Commander would ever be able to do that again.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> So how exactly do you propose that the Night's Watch are opening closing the tunnel from inside the tunnel or from Castle Black? Do you think they're signalling someone on top of the wall who is then lifting the gate from way up there?


Who knows? The design is absurd.

A reasonable design either has the gate on the inside, or else going into a cavity in the wall. This one had the gate and the side channels on the outside of the wall.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Can you discuss this in the "Only-Up-Until-The-Latest-Episode" book thread? I'd be interested to hear about that.


Done.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> No, you can see that it is on the outside. While it is possible there could be some locking mechanism or side-lift mechanism that is partially embedded in the wall, it does not make sense from what we saw, since the giant just decided to lift it.
> 
> Anyway, you can see that the gate goes up in a frame on the outside of the wall. And from the previous screenshot I posted, you can see that there is nothing around the gate on the inside.
> 
> It is just a really stupid design. Obviously done by someone who is not familiar with these sorts of fortifications.


I stand corrected.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

pendragn said:


> The Wildlings have made it pretty clear that they don't like kings, so I think that would be a tough, though not impossible, alliance.





stellie93 said:


> This. The Wildlings are "the free folk." They are not going to like law and order. On the other hand, with White Walkers at their back, if you could convince them that they aren't getting through the wall, they might agree to almost anything. Whether they would do as they promised is another question.


Right? People often compromise when facing death (especially that of loved ones). Besides, do we know what their not-gonna-bend-a-knee plan is if they get themselves south of the wall? 100,000 raiders, raiding for food? Take and hold some land and become farmers?

We've established that there's a lot of unused land in the North. Maybe it's not the best farmland (compared to the South), but if they can live north of the wall...


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

I liked the Scythe. That was a surprise. Although it looked like enough ice broke loose with it, that the ice could've gotten all the climbers. In fact, you don't need to haul heavy stuff up the wall over time to prep for defense. Just carve off and stack blocks of ice as it accumulates.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

But once the Great Evil shows up at the wall, I suspect the Wildlings and the Westerosi will be in a position to say "Let's just put our differences aside and deal with this threat to all of us. If we survive, we can re-open the question of our own coexistence."


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Who knows? The design is absurd.
> 
> A reasonable design either has the gate on the inside, or else going into a cavity in the wall. This one had the gate and the side channels on the outside of the wall.


Let's be clear - you have a problem with the way the gate was rendered in CGI. Not with the way it was "designed" or "constructed." Should the person who created the CGI have been a little more detailed on how that type of fortification should have been depicted and how it should operate? Yes. Does it matter? Not one bit.



tlc said:


> I liked the Scythe. That was a surprise. Although it looked like enough ice broke loose with it, that the ice could've gotten all the climbers. In fact, you don't need to haul heavy stuff up the wall over time to prep for defense. Just carve off and stack blocks of ice as it accumulates.


In order for the Scythe to operate as it did, it had to be buried in the ice a few hundred feet off to the right of where the climbers were coming up. That way, it could fall to the left and do the damage that it did. So it's unlikely that anyone was climbing that far to the side.

Although given Mance Rayder's knowledge of the Wall's defenses, he should have directed the climbers to go off to their left or right in order to alleviate that potential danger. And also, it seems that the danger posed by the Scythe is that if you're below the Scythe but using a rope to climb, it cuts your rope. And if you're right at the level of the Scythe, it cuts you in half. But if you're not using a rope or you're below that level, then it's really not that dangerous, right? So basically, the decision of when to cut the Scythe loose is just a guessing game as to whether it will actually get any of the climbers.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> In order for the Scythe to operate as it did, it had to be buried in the ice a few hundred feet off to the right of where the climbers were coming up. That way, it could fall to the left and do the damage that it did. So it's unlikely that anyone was climbing that far to the side.
> 
> Although given Mance Rayder's knowledge of the Wall's defenses, he should have directed the climbers to go off to their left or right in order to alleviate that potential danger. And also, it seems that the danger posed by the Scythe is that if you're below the Scythe but using a rope to climb, it cuts your rope. And if you're right at the level of the Scythe, it cuts you in half. But if you're not using a rope or you're below that level, then it's really not that dangerous, right? So basically, the decision of when to cut the Scythe loose is just a guessing game as to whether it will actually get any of the climbers.


It also appears to break loose a heck of a lot of ice fragments; which then rained down the face of the wall.

I think you'd probably be pretty dead if you were climbing anywhere below the arc of the Scythe. (But one Scythe can still only protect a strictly limited length of wall)


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## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Anyone care to offer some spoiler-free Tyrion predictions for the season finale?
> 
> 1) Will he live? (and escape)
> 
> ...


I'm betting on #3.

Sent from my iPhone


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Let's be clear - you have a problem with the way the gate was rendered in CGI. Not with the way it was "designed" or "constructed."


Wrong. The design was self-evident. The rendering was fine -- it looked like a gate. The problem was with the design.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jon Snow:"So you and Gilly never...?"

Sam: "No! She just had a baby!"

long pause

Sam: "And she never offered"


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Wrong. The design was self-evident. The rendering was fine -- it looked like a gate. The problem was with the design.


Right. The design of a visual effect by the makers of the TV show. Not the design of the gate by the builders of the Wall. There's a difference. As we've seen in the show, the gate can be opened and closed by someone on the inside of the tunnel/Castle Black, and it doesn't appear that they have to relay that request to someone on top of the wall who then lifts the gate from above/outside.

So clearly the gate is intended to be internally controlled. Clearly it's not something that can be opened or operated from the outside. And clearly whoever created the CGI renderings of the gate didn't do a very good job of that. But who cares. We know that the Night's Watch can operate the gate from their side of the Wall. That's all we need to know.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Jon Snow:"So you and Gilly never...?"
> 
> Sam: "No! She just had a baby!"
> 
> ...


"Open THE F'INK GATE!"

--"I've never heard you swear before."


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Clearly it's not something that can be opened or operated from the outside.


Wrong again. Both from appearance and what actually happened, it obviously can be opened from the outside.

Your implication that what the gate looks like is irrelevant is strange. If we do not care how things look, then why watch the show at all? Just read it instead.


----------



## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> I thought it was pretty boring as well.


Me too.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Wrong again. Both from appearance and what actually happened, it obviously can be opened from the outside.
> 
> Your implication that what the gate looks like is irrelevant is strange. If we do not care how things look, then why watch the show at all? Just read it instead.


This is a show adapted from previously-written material. By all accounts, the previously-written material is extremely intricate in the way it details things. I wouldn't know, I haven't read it. I don't know if the way the gate works is detailed in the books. But I'm reasonably confident that GRRM intended the gate to be well designed. I think I remember reading/hearing that within the universe of the books, The Wall is considered one of the world's true engineering masterpieces.

I think it's safe to say that the way the gate has been shown to physically operate in the show is in contradiction to the way the gate has been visually depicted in the show. Given that contradiction, I'm choosing to view it as the physical operation is what the writers/GRRM intended and the visual depiction is just an artist's concept that nobody looked at closely enough to realize it contradicted the physical operation.

Thus, it's one of those cases that happens ALL THE TIME in TV/Movies where we simply have to accept that the technical inaccuracies depicted on screen are immaterial, and the physical operation as depicted on screen is what the author was intending to convey.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I like that Sam has found a loophole in the vows that make it ok to have sex as long as you aren't married and father no children.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I like that Sam has found a loophole in the vows that make it ok to have sex as long as you aren't married and father no children.


That's an old loophole. I used to joke that having sex with my girlfriend was not pre-marital sex if I never get married.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> This is a show adapted from previously-written material. By all accounts, the previously-written material is extremely intricate in the way it details things. I wouldn't know, I haven't read it. I don't know if the way the gate works is detailed in the books. But I'm reasonably confident that GRRM intended the gate to be well designed. I think I remember reading/hearing that within the universe of the books, The Wall is considered one of the world's true engineering masterpieces.
> 
> I think it's safe to say that the way the gate has been shown to physically operate in the show is in contradiction to the way the gate has been visually depicted in the show. Given that contradiction, I'm choosing to view it as the physical operation is what the writers/GRRM intended and the visual depiction is just an artist's concept that nobody looked at closely enough to realize it contradicted the physical operation.
> 
> Thus, it's one of those cases that happens ALL THE TIME in TV/Movies where we simply have to accept that the technical inaccuracies depicted on screen are immaterial, and the physical operation as depicted on screen is what the author was intending to convey.


I'm willing to bet any argument you make is going to be wrong as far as he is concerned


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LOL. The gate we see is a prop on a ramshackle set in Ireland(?). The word was that they had to make a considerable effort to get enough in the set to pull this episode off.

The gate doesn't have to work for real any more than than the doors in Star Trek.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Jon Snow:"So you and Gilly never...?"
> 
> Sam: "No! She just had a baby!"
> 
> ...


(archer friend): "I killed one! Shot him right through the heart!"

pause

Sam: "Is it over then? (pause) Right, here you go."


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I'm willing to bet any argument you make is going to be wrong as far as he is concerned


Unfortunately, I won't take that bet because the odds would be 1 trillion to 1 against. (In other words, you're absolutely right and I don't know why I'm bothering, but I just couldn't help myself.)



MikeAndrews said:


> LOL. The gate we see is a prop on a ramshackle set in Ireland(?). The word was that they had to make a considerable effort to get enough in the set to pull this episode off.
> 
> The gate doesn't have to work for real any more than than the doors in Star Trek.


The exteriors of The Wall area are shot in Iceland, but it's possible that there may have been some of the interiors of the Castle Black stuff shot on sets in Northern Ireland.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Unfortunately, I won't take that bet because the odds would be 1 trillion to 1 against. (In other words, you're absolutely right and I don't know why I'm bothering, but I just couldn't help myself.)


Actually, the odds would be infinite, since you have not presented an argument to refute my statement that the gate design is terrible, but are just listing excuses about why you want to ignore the obvious problem with the gate as shown.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Sometimes, when you have a problem with everything, the problem is you.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> No, you can see that it is on the outside. While it is possible there could be some locking mechanism or side-lift mechanism that is partially embedded in the wall, it does not make sense from what we saw, since the giant just decided to lift it.
> 
> Anyway, you can see that the gate goes up in a frame on the outside of the wall. And from the previous screenshot I posted, you can see that there is nothing around the gate on the inside.


I don't understand what all the fuss is

1) You can clearly see there are huge iron tracks on both sides of the door on the outside of the wall. All the mechanisms would be run through there are are well protected, and embed into the ice.

2) As far as any locking mechanisms, as has already been pointed out, the wall and castles are in a state of disrepair. They don't have the manpower to deal with everything. It's already been pointed out back in season 1 or 2 how they used to keep up all the forest, so that there were no trees within (I think it was) 1 mile of the wall. That's no longer the case. They've completely abandoned like 80% of the outposts on the wall. If there is a mechanism within the wall and it's broken, getting at it inside of the ice is not going to be an easy task. Just another thing they don't have time for.

3) Even if the locking mechanism was fully working, those giants are freakishly strong. They could just break the damn thing. A properly installed deadbolt in a steel door with a properly reinforced frame is going to keep anyone from kicking it in no matter how hard they try. But bring on the police battering ram and...

4) Even without the locking mechanism, there is probably no way 100 men are lifting that thing. I know they addressed that fact that a thousand years about they knew about white walkers, but did they ever know about the existence of giants? Not sure about that. If not, you can't fault anyone for not protecting against something they didn't know existed.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> That passage has been forgotten about by the Night's Watch. I don't know how Sam found it in the TV show but there was a very specific reason he found it in the books. If you want to know hop over to the other thread for more detail.


In the show, Sam talked about how he read it in the books, so he knows how to find it even though it's hidden. That's when he got his boner over being told by Gilly that he was a wizard (which was his childhood dream). Is that all you were going to say, or is there more to it?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> So John is going to kill Mance without a sword? Or any supplies? Or even a hat?


Well, presumably there are at least a few weapons lying on the other side of the wall.


----------



## hairyblue (Feb 25, 2002)

I loved the episode. GoT because a war movie. See how the men handled the stress of fighting and facing death for some, was very interesting. 

I hated that the guys Snow joined with died. The only one left is Sam. I was hoping that the bearded guy sent to guard the gate would have made it. But you could tell that Snow knew he was sending him to his death.

And so I'm clear, Snow was going out beyond the wall to talk, not the the wildlings but the group who eats people? Did I understand that or was he just going out to talk to the other side period?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> In the show, Sam talked about how he read it in the books, so he knows how to find it even though it's hidden. That's when he got his boner over being told by Gilly that he was a wizard (which was his childhood dream). Is that all you were going to say, or is there more to it?


Look in the other thread. There was more to it than that.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tivoboyjr said:


> (and that my son would love this episode but he's waaay too young to see this show).


My daughter was about 3.5 when she accidentally (didn't know she was standing in the doorway) saw Theon's botched beheading of Roderick. "What happened to the man?"

Several months later, I think I was watching the red wedding episode. She was in a different room but she heard some screaming and she comes running in "...I want to see the man".


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

hairyblue said:


> And so I'm clear, Snow was going out beyond the wall to talk, not the the wildlings but the group who eats people? Did I understand that or was he just going out to talk to the other side period?


No, he's going to the North side, and he's going specifically to kill Mance Rayder (not sure how he's planning to do that, but good luck with it, I suppose)


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Bolton is supposed to help (As Ned Stark would have). But Bolton is still just leaving Moat Cailin;...he's a couple of weeks away from Winterfell


Is he? Last episode, at Moat Cailin Ramsay told Reek they were going "to our new home". Then we later see him meet up with Roose, and then in the distance you see what I thought was winterfell (it sure didn't look like Moat Cailin, nor the Dreadfort). I assumed now that he is the warden of the north, that would be his new residence.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> So GoT "world" question. Are the people at Castle Black the ONLY defenders of the Wall, or, can they signal back and get reinforcements from others in the realm? As Jon Snow mentioned, they maybe could hold out for one or two more days, but, if they could get reinforcements, they possibly could hold out longer? OTA, it's possible that any reinforcements might just be too far away.


Currently there are no reinforcements because nobody is interested in supporting the wall. That's why they would travel all the way to kings landing to get prisoners (who aren't even trained in combat) to bring back to help defend the wall.

They already sent out ravens asking for help, and the only person who seems to believe in the danger they talk about is Stannis. I think it was sort of suggested that he was deviating from his plan to take Kings Landing in order to help out with the wall, and presumably that's what raising an army for. My guess is that if he's the only one who takes the threat seriously and is the one who saves Westeros, more people will rally to his side and proclaim him the rightful king.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> 1) You can clearly see there are huge iron tracks on both sides of the door on the outside of the wall. All the mechanisms would be run through there are are well protected, and embed into the ice.


Actually, that is impossible, since the door goes up the channel on the outside. It is obviously a terrible design.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Actually, that is impossible, since the door goes up the channel on the outside. It is obviously a terrible design.


Repeating yourself a million times doesn't make it right. Impossible? So what, you think those iron tracks are just leaning against the ice? Or do you think they are anchored deeply into the ice?

And what about the mechanisms that operate the gate? We can see in the scene just before the mastadons begin pulling that a) The metal framework does not extend to the top of the wall (it only goes up about 30-40 feet, and b) there are no chains coming out of the top. So how do the men operate the gate? Clearly everything goes through the ice.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> Repeating yourself a million times doesn't make it right.


If you stopped posting things that are obviously incorrect, then I would not need to repeat myself.

Since the door goes up the channels on the outside, how do you think it is "well protected"? A magical force-field barrier that lets the door pass through but keeps anyone from sticking a pry bar or catch-hook or whatever into the works?

And how do you think the locking mechanism transmits the locking force to the gate without having a lever or shaft that connects to the gate, which is on the outside of the ice? Another magical force-field?

If I ever have to attack a fortified gate, I certainly hope someone like you designed it! 



LordKronos said:


> If there is a mechanism within the wall and it's broken, getting at it inside of the ice is not going to be an easy task. Just another thing they don't have time for.


Well, gee, might that be a design flaw?


----------



## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Well, gee, might that be a design flaw?


Likely doesn't meet code.

Sent from my iPhone


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I don't understand what all the fuss is


It utterly and completely does not matter.

But, you've picked a fight with the one guy on the forum to whom it not only matters, but is the most important and critical aspect of the episode.



LordKronos said:


> 4) Even without the locking mechanism, there is probably no way 100 men are lifting that thing.












I think though that the gate has to be evaluated in context, and the context is that the wall is supposed to be manned by defenders that can rain death down on whomever is attempting to breach the gate. It's just a delaying tactic, to keep the enemy bottlenecked in the killzone while you kill them. If you don't have the manpower or the weaponry to kill the enemy, then the gate will be breached regardless of how well it's designed. It's just a matter of time.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Good lord people, why are you arguing with him? He's the energizer terminator of show threads, he won't stop until he has the last word.

Put him on ignore, or if you can't do that at least stop quoting him.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> Put him on ignore, or if you can't do that at least stop quoting him.


If you use the TCF Better Ignore Greasemonkey script, even posts that quote him are hidden.

Lately I've been tempted...I do it mentally anyway.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Game of Thrones Season Four, Episode 9: The Realtive Merits of Various Gate-Locking Mechanisms for 200-foot Walls Constructed of Indigenous Ice.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Is he? Last episode, at Moat Cailin Ramsay told Reek they were going "to our new home". Then we later see him meet up with Roose, and then in the distance you see what I thought was winterfell (it sure didn't look like Moat Cailin, nor the Dreadfort). I assumed now that he is the warden of the north, that would be his new residence.


YES. You are correct. Don't know why I forgot that part. I was even looking forward to seeing if Winterfell would still be spewing black smoke in the credits!

So, yes, Bolton is at Winterfell. It still puts him weeks away from the Wall and he has shown zero indication that he will help. Stannis is the only hope for reinforcement.



heySkippy said:


> Good lord people, why are you arguing with him? He's the energizer terminator of show threads, he won't stop until he has the last word.
> 
> Put him on ignore, or if you can't do that at least stop quoting him.


I did get the last word a few threads ago (GoT thread). So it is possible. Although I had to sink to the level of a 5-year old to do it, it worked


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Dawghows said:


> Game of Thrones Season Four, Episode 9: The Realtive Merits of Various Gate-Locking Mechanisms for 200-foot Walls Constructed of Indigenous Ice.


/channeling my inner John4200

Once again, you are wrong. It's 500 feet tall.

Yes, I know it's 700 feet. That's the joke within the joke!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Was the wall built? When and how?

What does the last name Snow mean?

What is "crow"?

Why is Mance north of the wall?

What happened to John Snow's uncle?

Has Sam told the gang about what killed the white walker?

Is Viper really dead?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> Was the wall built? When and how?


Yes. Some time ago. With snow and Ice.



uncdrew said:


> What does the last name Snow mean?


atmospheric water vapor frozen into ice crystals and falling in light white flakes or lying on the ground as a white layer



uncdrew said:


> What is "crow"?


It's a dish you never want to eat.



uncdrew said:


> Why is Mance north of the wall?


Because the Wall is south of him.



uncdrew said:


> What happened to John Snow's uncle?


He joined the Night Watch



uncdrew said:


> Has Sam told the gang about what killed the white walker?


Yes. or Maybe. probably not.



uncdrew said:


> Is Viper really dead?


I'm pretty sure you can get a Viper at a Dodge dealer.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> Was the wall built? When and how?
> 
> What does the last name Snow mean?
> 
> ...


Were you flipping channels and stumbled across a new show?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I caught up in two days. I missed a few things.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I caught up in two days. I missed a few things.


wait...I thought you were joking...were these real questions?

if so, I'm happy to answer them...


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I caught up in two days. I missed a few things.


Snow is the regional surname for bastards in the North.

The Crownlands	Waters
The North	Snow
The Iron Islands	Pyke
The Riverlands	Rivers
The Vale	Stone
The Westerlands	Hill
The Reach	Flowers
The Stormlands	Storm
Dorne	Sand


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> wait...I thought you were joking...were these real questions? if so, I'm happy to answer them...


Don't forget to explain in detail how the gate works.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> Was the wall built? When and how?


yes. at least 1,000 years ago. men built it to keep out the White Walkers (I think that was the main reason). But it also cut off the people who lived there from the rest of the world and they are pissed about it.



uncdrew said:


> What does the last name Snow mean?


A bastard cannot take the last name of his father. So he is given a last name that identifies him as a bastard. Each region has a name befitting of its climate or what it's famous for. In the North, you get a last name of Snow. Everyone then knows you're a bastard.



uncdrew said:


> What is "crow"?


Members of the Night Watch man the castles at the wall to defend the realm from white walkers and wildings. They dress all in black. So they are nicknamed "Crows" cause they look like one.



uncdrew said:


> Why is Mance north of the wall?


He is a former member of the Night Watch who didn't want to serve and wanted to be free. He went on a mission in the North and went rogue and declared himself The King Beyond The Wall.



uncdrew said:


> What happened to John Snow's uncle?


We have no idea and are waiting for him to pop up at some point. He went on a mission (he is a Crow) and was never heard from. His party was all killed and his horse came back bloody to Castle Black.

My guess is that he is the White Walker that took the baby to the StoneHenge thing.



uncdrew said:


> Has Sam told the gang about what killed the white walker?


Yes. We don't know if he had more than one of those crystals. We know he left the one he used on the ground by the dead WW.



uncdrew said:


> Is Viper really dead?


He's dead, Jim.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Well, gee, might that be a design flaw?


I love it. So if it's on the outside of the wall, it's a design flaw. If it goes through the wall, where it's not easily accessed for repair, its a design flaw. But apparently the non-flawed way to design it would be to put the entire thing embedded within the ice, where it's not easily accessed for repair.

I sure wish all poorly designed stuff held up for 8000 years like the wall.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> Don't forget to explain in detail how the gate works.


I can't explain what does not work and clearly poorly designed.


----------



## HoosierFan (May 8, 2001)

How do archers shoot arrows 700 ft up to the top of the wall and actually hit and kill people? How do the climb a 700 ft wall and have any energy left?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

HoosierFan said:


> How do archers shoot arrows 700 ft up to the top of the wall and actually hit and kill people? How do the climb a 700 ft wall and have any energy left?


They don't. We clearly saw one archer fire an arrow and it barely cleared a couple of hundred feet. Only a Giant was able to do it. He shot twice. He missed the first one and killed a crow with the second one.

As for the climb. Well...these are some tough SOBs!


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

The only arrow I recall being shot from the ground to the top of the wall was the giant arrow that the giant shot from the giant bow. So, giants!

Actually, I'm skeptical that an arrow shot from 700 feet up would have enough kinetic energy to penetrate thick hides by the time it got to the ground. Seems to me that friction from the air would slow the arrow to whatever its terminal velocity would be long before that.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> Actually, I'm skeptical that an arrow shot from 700 feet up would have enough kinetic energy to penetrate thick hides by the time it got to the ground. Seems to me that friction from the air would slow the arrow to whatever its terminal velocity would be long before that.


That would be no problem. Think about it...archers shoot arrows up in an arc. At the top of the arc, they've lost all of their vertical momentum, so they only have their horizontal momentum left. Yes they still have enough power to kill when they come back down to the ground. Wind resistance does no present a problem there.

So if you are firing from the top of the wall, in the worst case (where wind resistance is the limiting factor) the arrow would be going just as fast. In the best case, the arrow shot from the wall would be faster because it wouldn't have lost any momentum to gravity.

And just in case you think the range is the issue, the wall is only 700 feet tall. Archers can easily shoot that far:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow



> The range of the medieval weapon is not accurately known, with much depending on both the power of the bow and the type of arrow. It has been suggested that a flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400 yd (370 m)[24] but the longest mark shot at on the London practice ground of Finsbury Fields in the 16th century was 345 yd (315 m).[25] In 1542, Henry VIII set a minimum practice range for adults using flight arrows of 220 yd (200 m); ranges below this had to be shot with heavy arrows.[26] Modern experiments broadly concur with these historical ranges. A 667 N (150 lbf) Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot a 53.6 g (1.89 oz) arrow 328 m (359 yd) and a 95.9 g (3.38 oz) a distance of 249.9 m (273.3 yd).[27] In 2012, Joe Gibbs shot a 2.25 oz (64 g) livery arrow 292 yd (267 m) with 170 lbf yew bow.


Edit: and when you say "penetrate thick hides", I assume you are talking about shooting the giants. Just FYI, I believe the arrow that took down that one giant was not from a normal bow, but from a giant mounted crossbow.


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Anubys said:


> /channeling my inner John4200
> 
> Once again, you are wrong. It's 500 feet tall.
> 
> Yes, I know it's 700 feet. That's the joke within the joke!


/also channeling John 4200

Measurements are obviously completely different in the GoT world as compared to our own, most probably due to a design flaw. I don't know how you could have watched the show for all this time and still have missed out on this fact.

/end John4200 post


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

The biggest problem I had with the whole thing was Mance not sending more men up the wall to attack from the south. Why not send 500 men? 1,000? Would have taken Castle Black with sheer numbers. Done. Open the gate and let your other 99,000 through.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

ClutchBrake said:


> The biggest problem I had with the whole thing was Mance not sending more men up the wall to attack from the south. Why not send 500 men? 1,000? Would have taken Castle Black with sheer numbers. Done. Open the gate and let your other 99,000 through.


That could work, especially knowing how few men actually guarded the wall. Remember, Jon talked about how if Mance realized how few crows there actually were, he wouldn't hold back. As far as Mance knows, there are 1000 crows guarding it. So if he sends a bunch of men to the wall, what do they do? Until the giants and mammoths rip off the gate, they can't go through unless the giant lifts the gate. If they do go through, then they are trapped in the tunnel until the giants manage to get the gate open. Until then, they would be sitting ducks for archers to shoot through the gate and kill them while they wait.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> That could work, especially knowing how few men actually guarded the wall. Remember, Jon talked about how if Mance realized how few crows there actually were, he wouldn't hold back. As far as Mance knows, there are 1000 crows guarding it. So if he sends a bunch of men to the wall, what do they do? Until the giants and mammoths rip off the gate, they can't go through unless the giant lifts the gate. If they do go through, then they are trapped in the tunnel until the giants manage to get the gate open. Until then, they would be sitting ducks for archers to shoot through the gate and kill them while they wait.


No, I'm talking about Ygritte and crew. Even if Mance believed Jon that there were 1,000 men at Castle Black it was foolish not to send more people to attack from the other side. Divide and conquer. The way to take Castle Black is from its weak side.

Now we just have to see if it is Stannis or some other Deus Ex Machina that saves Castle Black.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I guess I'm confused. If the wildings made it around the wall to the south, why can't everyone do that?


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Edit: and when you say "penetrate thick hides", I assume you are talking about shooting the giants.


Actually, I was thinking of the furs everyone is wearing.

And I'm still not convinced. Just because someone can make an arrow go 700 feet doesn't mean it has any penetrating power left at the end. A 2 or 3 oz arrow needs velocity to do damage and it only slows down from the moment it leaves the bow.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I guess I'm confused. If the wildings made it around the wall to the south, why can't everyone do that?


Getting 100 guys over the wall is dangerous.

Multiply that by 1000, a lot of whom are kids and old people incapable of making the climb, and it becomes impossible.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I like that Sam has found a loophole in the vows that make it ok to have sex as long as you aren't married and father no children.


The men of the Night's Watch spent copious time in Mole Town at a brothel. Sam wasn't the first to make that distinction.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Not episode specific, but I thought some might find it interesting and didn't know where else to put it. Behind the scenes pictures showing how they make Jaime's prosthetic arm. Bonus photo of post-Red Wedding Catelyn Stark and her lovely neck. http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/these-behind-the-scenes-instagrams-of-jamie-lannisters-arm-f

If you find them on actual instagram, (which I won't link because some photos may be NSFW) he writes:


> Some more work from #gameofthrones season 3 with @creaturesinc , in the eppisode where he's having a nice warm bath with bryeen. We called this the "t-bone" stump; there was also the "double decker" and the "socky stump" but they weren't used so much.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> Actually, I was thinking of the furs everyone is wearing.
> 
> And I'm still not convinced. Just because someone can make an arrow go 700 feet doesn't mean it has any penetrating power left at the end. A 2 or 3 oz arrow needs velocity to do damage and it only slows down from the moment it leaves the bow.


It's a known fact that archers in war would shoot volleys of arrows up in an arc, and they would kill people when they came down. I just explained why an arrow shot straight down instead of in an arc would be at worst no slow, and at best a bit faster. What's not to be convinced about? If it worked in actual war in the real world, why would it not work from the wall?


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

perhaps the arc of the arrow in the episode was a bad design.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

ClutchBrake said:


> The biggest problem I had with the whole thing was Mance not sending more men up the wall to attack from the south. Why not send 500 men? 1,000?


Let's assume that Mance thought there were far more men stationed at Castle Black (after all, Jon Snow went to great length to prevent that knowledge from getting to him). He might have assumed there was no way the castle could be taken from the South, and used the raiding party solely as a distraction to draw defenses from the North side, making it easier to breach the North gate.

Their goal might have also been to capture men of the watch and interrogate them. I recall Jon Snow being very adamant about not leaving the castle as the wildlings were slaughtering the neighboring villages.



MonsterJoe said:


> perhaps the arc of the arrow in the episode was a bad design.


Or properly designed, but poorly written! 

(much like Iron Born who fail to fight to the death when they're supposed to)


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Currently there are no reinforcements because nobody is interested in supporting the wall. That's why they would travel all the way to kings landing to get prisoners (who aren't even trained in combat) to bring back to help defend the wall.
> 
> They already sent out ravens asking for help, and the only person who seems to believe in the danger they talk about is Stannis. I think it was sort of suggested that he was deviating from his plan to take Kings Landing in order to help out with the wall, and presumably that's what raising an army for. My guess is that if he's the only one who takes the threat seriously and is the one who saves Westeros, more people will rally to his side and proclaim him the rightful king.


Oh, sure. Like anybody is gonna believe.

They've been told like 12 times that there are real White Walkers, (Whytes?), Dragons, Giants, Mammoths, ... and they still say, "It's all children's stories."

Ummm, guys. One the the "children's stories" is dead and single handedly blocking the tunnel.

"Sure. It's a hoax!"


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> The Wall is considered one of the world's true engineering masterpieces ...


So how exactly is the wall constructed? I've often wondered this. I assume it was explained in the book, but I don't recall them saying anything about it in the show. Is there man laid brick and stone beneath the ice? I'm not sure if the answer to this is technically a spoiler, but it might be a good idea to spoilerize the answer nonetheless.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> Oh, sure. Like anybody is gonna believe.
> 
> They've been told like 12 times that there are real White Walkers, (Whytes?), Dragons, Giants, Mammoths, ... and they still say, "It's all children's stories."
> 
> ...


The Stynt guy was looking right at the Giant riding the Mammoth and still insisted Giants don't exist!


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Must be a Republican.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

gweempose said:


> So how exactly is the wall constructed? I've often wondered this. I assume it was explained in the book, but I don't recall them saying anything about it in the show. Is there man laid brick and stone beneath the ice? I'm not sure if the answer to this is technically a spoiler, but it might be a good idea to spoilerize the answer nonetheless.


I did manage to read a little bit about it on the wiki once while avoiding any spoilers.


Spoiler



It was built 8000 years ago and is solid ice. Apparently they would cut out blocks of ice from frozen lakes in the north and build it with that.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

HoosierFan said:


> How do the climb a 700 ft wall and have any energy left?





Anubys said:


> As for the climb. Well...these are some tough SOBs!


One of the best lines of the night (paraphrasing):

Jon Snow: They won't make it up the wall tonight. It's a two-day climb. I've done it.

Grenn(?): These guys may be in more of a hurry than you were.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

ClutchBrake said:


> The biggest problem I had with the whole thing was Mance not sending more men up the wall to attack from the south. Why not send 500 men? 1,000? Would have taken Castle Black with sheer numbers. Done. Open the gate and let your other 99,000 through.


You need to find 500 or 1000 troops able to scale a 700 foot wall, fully armed, and undetected.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I guess I'm confused. If the wildings made it around the wall to the south, why can't everyone do that?


The wildlings didn't get around the wall - there is no way "around" the Wall. They climbed it (Jon Snow was part of that climbing party in S3). It's a difficult climb and many people - even experienced, skillful climbers - have died trying to get over it. I don't remember the total, but several members of the raiding party died while making the climb. The Wall is said to "defend itself" - often shedding sheets of ice as climbers are clambering up it.

So, obviously, the problem with sending a large force to climb the wall is finding enough skillful climbers to do so, and then knowing you are going to lose a significant number of them during the climb.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Thanks for the answers.

So Jon is a snow-crow. I wonder if he'll ever be a stark.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> The wildlings didn't get around the wall - there is no way "around" the Wall.


Could you sail around it?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

gweempose said:


> So how exactly is the wall constructed? I've often wondered this. I assume it was explained in the book, but I don't recall them saying anything about it in the show. Is there man laid brick and stone beneath the ice? I'm not sure if the answer to this is technically a spoiler, but it might be a good idea to spoilerize the answer nonetheless.


From the wiki for the books:



Spoiler



The Wall was built of ice and stone, and according to legend, ancient spells are woven through it that both strengthen it as well as prevent magical creatures like the Others from passing through it. It's wide enough at the top to allow a dozen knights to ride abreadst across it, and significantly thicker at the base.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> The wildlings didn't get around the wall - there is no way "around" the Wall.


Didn't Osha say in an earlier episode that when she came south she went around the wall by boat?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Could you sail around it?


No but you can sail to the South side of the wall. At least a reasonable distance from it.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Could you sail around it?


Yes, it's possible. But you have to remember that the Wall is 300 miles long. So if Castle Black is somewhere near the middle, that's a long way around.

The eastern terminus of the Wall is at the Bay of Seals, and is protected by Eastwatch-By-The-Sea, one of the 3 castles that are currently manned by the Watch. The Night's Watch garrisoned there have several largers ships as well as smaller fighting vessels that they use to patrol the Bay, as well as to protect the fisherfolk who live there. The wildlings in this area trade with the Watch garrisoned there, so the relations between the two are fairly amicable. So, again, sneaking a large force around the Wall is not going to be easy, and it's going to take a long time.

The western terminus of the Wall is the Frostfangs mountain range, which is apparently so uninhabitable that no one lives there. And that edge of the Wall is guarded by the Shadow Tower, the other Watch-garrisoned castle. The map of the area also shows a river called The Gorge, as well as a significant landmass (part of the Frostfangs) across that river that stretches south of the Wall, so you can only assume that if you can get through the Frostfangs and have access to a boat, you can get south of the Wall that way.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

So I guess the point is, there's not an easy way to get a larger fighting force over or around the Wall that doesn't involve moving a tremendous distance (through ice and snow, no less), and then either significant danger or logistical concerns (like a large number of boats).

Small numbers can certainly find their way around or over, but it's not easy.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Here is a map of Westeros. http://quartermaester.info/
You have to scroll up to see where the wall is. 
A large number of boats would seem to be the preferred way to get around the wall.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

It's also important to remember the purpose of the Wall in the first place - it was built to keep the White Walkers, aka The Others, at bay. It was never designed to keep wildlings from getting around it. I'm guessing the White Walkers don't use boats, and/or can't/won't cross water.


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> It's also important to remember the purpose of the Wall in the first place - it was never built to keep the White Walkers, aka The Others, at bay. It was never designed to keep wildlings from getting around it. I'm guessing the White Walkers don't use boats, and/or can't/won't cross water.


I believe you meant to say it WAS built to keep the White Walkers at bay, since that was indeed it's purpose. There were no wildlings at the time.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

MarkL said:


> I believe you meant to say it WAS built to keep the White Walkers at bay, since that was indeed it's purpose. There were no wildlings at the time.


Bah. That's what I get for changing thoughts/sentence structures mid-stream. Fixed now.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Grantland has a running series called "Ask The Maester" which takes a tongue-in-cheek approach to filling in non-book readers with some of the backstory from the books, basically responding to questions. It's one of my favorite weekly reads, and the latest one deals with some of the same questions raised here, including this:



The Maester said:


> Now, the Wall is, as we've noted, thousands of years old, and in that time, Wildlings have tried every conceivable way to get over, under, and around it. Every year, Rangers catch small bands of Wildlings attempting to scale the wall or cross the Gorge, some even pushing out into the Bay of Ice or the Bay of Seals in small boats. History even tells us of an ill-fated yet ambitious tunneling attempt. These are all viable routes past the Wall, just not for 100,000 people. Remember, Mance's army isn't an army of conquest, per se - they're refugees attempting to escape the White Walkers, taking their families, animals, and belongings with them. You can't put a mammoth in a sealskin boat.


Obviously, there are book spoilers in the column, so I won't do anything but link to the rest.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Oh, ok. So Mance didn't really outnumber the Rangers 1,000:1 in soldiers. Just in total head count.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

hairyblue said:


> I hated that the guys Snow joined with died. The only one left is Sam. I was hoping that the bearded guy sent to guard the gate would have made it. But you could tell that Snow knew he was sending him to his death.


The only Crows I can think of that I know now are Sam, John, village boy, Dolorous Ed, and the guy hiding with Gilly--and maybe the cook.



LordKronos said:


> They already sent out ravens asking for help, and the only person who seems to believe in the danger they talk about is Stannis.


That's giving Stannis a lot of credit. The only reason he's concerned is that the Red Lady told him to be.



ClutchBrake said:


> No, I'm talking about Ygritte and crew. Even if Mance believed Jon that there were 1,000 men at Castle Black it was foolish not to send more people to attack from the other side. Divide and conquer. The way to take Castle Black is from its weak side.
> .


Maybe he was going to send more over secretly, but when Jon ran home and told everyone they were there, that was off the table.



BeanMeScot said:


> The men of the Night's Watch spent copious time in Mole Town at a brothel. Sam wasn't the first to make that distinction.


I doubt if there are a whole lot of Crows who spend time wondering if they are breaking their vows besides Jon and Sam. 



MarkL said:


> I believe you meant to say it WAS built to keep the White Walkers at bay, since that was indeed it's purpose. There were no wildlings at the time.


??? Where did the wildlings come from then?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

MarkL said:


> There were no wildlings at the time.





stellie93 said:


> ??? Where did the wildlings come from then?


Yeah, actually, there were wildlings even back then, or at least, there were people who were living north of The Wall when it was constructed.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> ??? Where did the wildlings come from then?


Well, when a momma wildling and a daddy wildling love each over very much...


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

For those who wanted more than the Night's Watch this week, I give you:


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> The wildlings didn't get around the wall - there is no way "around" the Wall. They climbed it (Jon Snow was part of that climbing party in S3). It's a difficult climb and many people - even experienced, skillful climbers - have died trying to get over it. I don't remember the total, but several members of the raiding party died while making the climb. The Wall is said to "defend itself" - often shedding sheets of ice as climbers are clambering up it.
> 
> So, obviously, the problem with sending a large force to climb the wall is finding enough skillful climbers to do so, and then knowing you are going to lose a significant number of them during the climb.


Thanks.

Too bad they didn't leave ropes and handholds behind!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> Actually, I was thinking of the furs everyone is wearing.
> 
> And I'm still not convinced. Just because someone can make an arrow go 700 feet doesn't mean it has any penetrating power left at the end. A 2 or 3 oz arrow needs velocity to do damage and it only slows down from the moment it leaves the bow.


It slows down from the energy from the bow, yes (excepting, of course, compound bows, where the arrow is accelerating as it leaves the bow. The watch doesn't have any of those). However, it accelerates downward at the same force of gravity as everything else, 32 feet per second per second.

Terminal velocity for a crossbow fired at 200 fps (well slower than these longbows could conceivably do, but the best numbers I was able to find on short notice) is between 150-200 feet per second. Gravity provides plenty of speed. If you simply drop an object off the wall, ignoring wind resistance, it will accelerate to 72 mph, just from the fall. Arrows, of course, are light, but they are also pointy, so that their cross section that is being affected by the wind is very small.

Aim would be a different story. You'd have no ability to do a Hawkeye-like shot with any sort of accuracy as the shear winds around the wall itself would play havoc with your aim. But the arrow would come down with more than enough force to penetrate flesh or furs and probably light armor.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I did enough reading earlier today on the physics of arrow flights to decide I didn't really want to know a lot more. I'll take all y'alls word for it.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> From the wiki for the books:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not really sure men of that age could make that wall.

Combine that with the gate crap and I'm out. Too unrealistic.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> No but you can sail to the South side of the wall. At least a reasonable distance from it.


I'm obviously not an expert, but a quick glimpse at the map makes me think a boat could get a wildling south of the wall. I'm guessing the book explains why not.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Yes, it's possible. But you have to remember that the Wall is 300 miles long. So if Castle Black is somewhere near the middle, that's a long way around.
> 
> The eastern terminus of the Wall is at the Bay of Seals, and is protected by Eastwatch-By-The-Sea, one of the 3 castles that are currently manned by the Watch. The Night's Watch garrisoned there have several largers ships as well as smaller fighting vessels that they use to patrol the Bay, as well as to protect the fisherfolk who live there. The wildlings in this area trade with the Watch garrisoned there, so the relations between the two are fairly amicable. So, again, sneaking a large force around the Wall is not going to be easy, and it's going to take a long time.
> 
> The western terminus of the Wall is the Frostfangs mountain range, which is apparently so uninhabitable that no one lives there. And that edge of the Wall is guarded by the Shadow Tower, the other Watch-garrisoned castle. The map of the area also shows a river called The Gorge, as well as a significant landmass (part of the Frostfangs) across that river that stretches south of the Wall, so you can only assume that if you can get through the Frostfangs and have access to a boat, you can get south of the Wall that way.


I'm convinced now. Thank you. 

I suspect three giants and two mammoths attacking the main gate would be the logical tactic based on my current information.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> That's giving Stannis a lot of credit. The only reason he's concerned is that the Red Lady told him to be.


And Davos - but mainly Melisandre, correct. IIRC, the Raven's message saved Davos from execution, because he told Stannis he'd need his help, and when they saw the vision of the great battle in the snow, Melisandre agreed.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> I'm convinced now. Thank you.
> 
> I suspect three giants and two mammoths attacking the main gate would be the logical tactic based on my current information.


Well, not only that, but that attack is also kind of a diversion. The raiding party was to coordinate its attack so that they could sneak through the relatively undefended southern fortifications of Castle Black while the Night's Watch was preoccupied with the sight and spectacle of the larger wildling force attacking the Wall. Mance Rayder's plan was that either 1) the giants/mammoths would be able to force open the gate so that they could start sending attackers through it, or 2) the raiding party would sneak attack the crows from behind and raise the gate.

That's what the owl warg dude from the raiding party was doing - he used the owl's eyes to see that Mance's force had lit that big fire, which was their cue to go.


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Yeah, actually, there were wildlings even back then, or at least, there were people who were living north of The Wall when it was constructed.


Yes, there were people living by choice north of the Wall, but they were pretty much minding their own business. At times they were even friendly and worked in league with the Night's Watch. They weren't considered a threat and the Wall was not built with them in mind. Once in a while, though, somebody tired of the cold gets a hankerin' for southern conquest and gets up a decent-sized army and gives the Wall and the Night's Watch (and the Warden of the North) a try. This time, it's Mance Rayder and he's a-runnin from the White Walkers. They aren't coming to take the Iron Throne ... they're just relocating south of the Wall, taking what land they want, raiding the few villages up in the Northland because that's what they do for entertainment, and telling the King they aren't bending the knee when they get there.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Right. I don't think we disagree.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> That's what the owl warg dude from the raiding party was doing - he used the owl's eyes to see that Mance's force had lit that big fire, which was their cue to go.


Seems that the warg should be able to get the necessary intel to tell Mance that there really aren't 1,000 crows at Castle Black.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Well, not only that, but that attack is also kind of a diversion. The raiding party was to coordinate its attack so that they could sneak through the relatively undefended southern fortifications of Castle Black while the Night's Watch was preoccupied with the sight and spectacle of the larger wildling force attacking the Wall. Mance Rayder's plan was that either 1) the giants/mammoths would be able to force open the gate so that they could start sending attackers through it, or 2) the raiding party would sneak attack the crows from behind and raise the gate.
> 
> That's what the owl warg dude from the raiding party was doing - he used the owl's eyes to see that Mance's force had lit that big fire, which was their cue to go.


Yes, but it makes you question Mance's logic a tad. He thought there were far more crows in Castle Black. Shouldn't he have sent a bigger force? At least on the Northern side?

Perhaps he doesn't have more? Or perhaps it was a measured attack to better plan for the next night. But I doubt it. Some of his best warriors are now dead.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> Yes, but it makes you question Mance's logic a tad. He thought there were far more crows in Castle Black. Shouldn't he have sent a bigger force? At least on the Northern side?
> 
> Perhaps he doesn't have more? Or perhaps it was a measured attack to better plan for the next night. But I doubt it. Some of his best warriors are now dead.


Jon told Sam that it was just a test of their defenses. He only sent two giants. I am sure there have to be more.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Jon told Sam that it was just a test of their defenses. He only sent two giants. I am sure there have to be more.


I would think so.

But heck, had he sent two more he would have won this battle IMHO. But yes, he thought there were a ton more crows.

Have they set the imp free yet?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Seems that the warg should be able to get the necessary intel to tell Mance that there really aren't 1,000 crows at Castle Black.


Except the warg wasn't with Mance, he was with the raiding party.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Except the warg wasn't with Mance, he was with the raiding party.


well, I'm pretty sure there are 1 or 2 Wargs on Mance's side of the Wall!


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> well, I'm pretty sure there are 1 or 2 Wargs on Mance's side of the Wall!


Maybe so, but we only saw one.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Maybe so, but we only saw one.


I seem to recall some dialogue where the people at Castle Black discussed having to make it seem like there were more people than there actually were. If so, that was probably mainly to fool Wargs spying on them.

But on the nitpicky point, I'm sure they didn't send their only 2 Wargs with the raiding party attacking from the south


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I guess I'm confused. If the wildings made it around the wall to the south, why can't everyone do that?


Among other reasons because 50 - 100 men can live off the land or by raiding pretty easily. 100,000 can't; they'll strip the land faster than they can march and quickly starve to death.

Assuming GRRM is paying attention to logistics Manse must have been years pre-positioning and creating stockpiles of long lasting and/or frozen food in preparation for his great migration south. But you can't haul all that material over the wall, even if you could hold a section long enough for the whole army to scale it. You need to control at least one opening to even hope to funnel enough food through to keep the army on its feet and marching until they can seize enough territory to spread out and be supported by the land.

That said, he probably could have sent a bigger raiding party. But I agree with smbaker that Mance likely assumed the southern force was there only to be a distraction. And as a diversion 100 men is almost as good as a 1000, and less men are easier to move, feed, and avoid any Nightwatch patrols until it's time for the main battle.


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I seem to recall some dialogue where the people at Castle Black discussed having to make it seem like there were more people than there actually were. If so, that was probably mainly to fool Wargs spying on them.


If I'm not mistaken, when we see the Watch preparing on the wall, loading barrels, lighting torches, etc, I think we see a lot of fake men set up on the wall ... basically, black cloaks on poles "holding" a torch. From a distance (or through the eyes of a warged bird?) you might think they were additonal troops.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

If Game of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook: Season 4, Episode 9:

http://happyplace.someecards.com/go...lace-entirely-on-facebook-season-4-episode-9/

(Spoiler Alert: They totally missed the chance to make jokes about the stupid design of the gate.)


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> (Spoiler Alert: They totally missed the chance to make jokes about the stupid design of the gate.)


They probably unfriended john4200 long ago.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

smbaker said:


> They probably unfriended john4200 long ago.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> (Spoiler Alert: They totally missed the chance to make jokes about the stupid design of the gate.)





smbaker said:


> They probably unfriended john4200 long ago.


So, long after I got tired of the subject and let it drop, you two are still going. I wonder if you will remember that the next time you get on my case for not letting a subject drop.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)




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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Oh, okay then. The next time we are debating something, then all I have to do is make a lame joke, and then you will not get on my case for not letting the subject drop?


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Perhaps the mechanism to drop the joke is located outside of their reach.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Perhaps the mechanism to drop the joke is located outside of their reach.


That's a terrible design.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

heySkippy said:


> Good lord people, why are you arguing with him? He's the energizer terminator of show threads, he won't stop until he has the last word.


Apparently, not so. I got bored of the subject and stopped, but then several other people decided to keep going.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Lately I've been tempted...I do it mentally anyway.


Mentally, huh? Doesn't that require brain power?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> I did get the last word a few threads ago (GoT thread). So it is possible. Although I had to sink to the level of a 5-year old to do it, it worked


For a legitimate challenge, try to win the debate on facts and merit of argument.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Jstkiddn said:


> Don't forget to explain in detail how the gate works.


It does not work very well, obviously.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> I love it. So if it's on the outside of the wall, it's a design flaw. If it goes through the wall, where it's not easily accessed for repair, its a design flaw. But apparently the non-flawed way to design it would be to put the entire thing embedded within the ice, where it's not easily accessed for repair.


No. The completely obvious way to design a fortified gate is to put the mechanism INSIDE the fortification, with easy access for people INSIDE. This is not rocket science. Look at any decent medieval castle or fort.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I'm no Medieval Engineer, but wouldn't an inside mounted gate would make it more susceptible to a Battering Ram? Those have got to be more common than Giants riding Mammoths that are able to pull it off.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> Terminal velocity for a crossbow fired at 200 fps (well slower than these longbows could conceivably do, but the best numbers I was able to find on short notice) is between 150-200 feet per second. Gravity provides plenty of speed. If you simply drop an object off the wall, ignoring wind resistance, it will accelerate to 72 mph, just from the fall. Arrows, of course, are light, but they are also pointy, so that their cross section that is being affected by the wind is very small.


You have that all wrong.

Terminal velocity, in general and in the context of this discussion, is the steady state velocity that an object reaches when falling under the influence of earth's gravity and air resistance. It has nothing at all to do with the speed that the arrow leaves the bow. For most arrows, terminal velocity is significantly higher than 200 feet/sec.

As for dropping an object from a 700 foot wall with no air resistance, it will accelerate to much faster than 72 miles/hour. The formula is v = sqrt(2*g*x). For g=32 feet/sec^2 and x = 700 feet, the final velocity is about 212 feet/sec, which is 144 miles/hour. Of course, realistically there is air resistance, so the final velocity for a dropped object would be lower. 700 feet would not be high enough for most arrows to reach terminal velocity. But realistically, terminal velocity is not a big deal for firing an arrow downwards from 700 feet. Since you are using a bow, you are not just dropping the arrow, you are propelling it at high speed. The arrow is not going to slow a great deal from its "muzzle" velocity during a drop of 700 feet.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MonsterJoe said:


> I'm no Medieval Engineer, but wouldn't an inside mounted gate would make it more susceptible to a Battering Ram?


No. Whether the gate is on the inside or the outside makes little difference for resisting a battering ram near the center of the gate. Either way that would depend on the strength of the gate itself (unless you think it is going to break at the attachment point, but that can be easily strengthened well beyond the strength of the gate itself).

Besides, if that were an issue, then the attackers would just pull at an outside mounted gate instead of battering at it (i.e., the same force as the ram, but in the opposite direction).


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Obligatory lame joke:

Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UneS2Uwc6xw#t=0m58s


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Obligatory lame joke:
> 
> Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in!


Needs picture:










Now good joke.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> Needs picture:


Wow, a lame picture? Come on, video is better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UneS2Uwc6xw#t=0m58s


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I did get the last word a few threads ago (GoT thread). So it is possible.


Not for long. I have a feeling someone's about to dig back in the history and bump that thread.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> Not for long. I have a feeling someone's about to dig back in the history and bump that thread.


This looks more like a personal attack than a reasoned response to my post. Am I to assume that you were unable to come up with a legitimate response to my recent post about how decent fortified gates have the mechanisms on the inside?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> This looks more like a personal attack


I learned from the master.



> than a reasoned response to my post.


Why should I do that? So that you can ignore 99% of what I type and cherry pick one little part to focus on, like you did last time?

Besides, I had let this subject go. I wasn't the one who got butt hurt when somebody made a simple joke about the absurdity that this discussion even happened.

So I'll tell you what. Before I keep guessing at this or that or the other thing that you might think is the proper way this should be designed, why don't you just go fire up autocad (hopefully your copy is better than the one the builders of the wall used 8000 years ago) and post for us your 3d rendering of exactly how you think this all should work. Then we can make sure we are addressing your specific and exact ideas instead of trying to guess exactly what it is you have in mind.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> Then we can make sure we are addressing your specific and exact ideas instead of trying to guess exactly what it is you have in mind.


Once again, this is not rocket science. When building a fortified gate, the gate and mechanisms go on the INSIDE.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Once again, this is not rocket science. When building a fortified gate, the gate and mechanisms go on the INSIDE.


Inside. Got it. Like the inner gate that the giant tried to ram down. That's inside. Oh wait, that's not what you mean by inside? See...my point exactly. I've got like a dozen ideas for what you might mean exactly, and I could make arguments for and against the various arrangements.

I believe the proper design you've mentioned several time is referring to the design used on medieval castle gates. Well please point me to your documentation of the many ice castles built in the history of our world. Ice has unique difficulties to work with. When you embed moving mechanisms into ice, you need to be aware that, even in freezing temperatures, ice is not a static object. It is dynamic, constantly melting and refreezing. Anything moving inside the ice needs to take into account that the ice around it could jam it up.

And if we embed it into the ice, that ice could just be chipped away. How is ice any stronger that the steel frame that we can already see surrounds the gate?

So perhaps you mean the gate should be moved inward some distance into the ice? Great, now you've just provided a shelter that protects your enemies at the bottom of the wall from the defenders at the top. Plus being able to get into a enclosed area makes the wall more susceptible to to planted explosives (which do far more damage in a semi-confined area than sitting next to a wall in open space).

So there's just a few ideas of what you might mean and issues that need to be considered. But I'll waste no more time shooting blindly at ghost ideas. Present your 3d model and I'll be happy to criticize it specifically.

And I'll also once again point out that this poorly designed object has withstood the test of 8000 years of existence. Please compare the designs of your ideal medieval castle gates to what existed 8000 years prior to that.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)




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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


>


OK, OK, back to the real events of the show.

We've got the season finale coming in just a few days. So do you think we'll find out what happens to Tyrion? I know there's been some debate over this topic, but I now really believe that, despite Tywin sentencing him to death, he is still going to have his opportunity to plead for mercy and be sent to the wall.

That would actually be perfect. Tyrion is a pretty smart guy. Remember back in season 1, how everyone said it would be impossible for bran to ride a horse again, but Tyrion came up with this really great design for a saddle for Bran? Then people were sure Stannis was going to siege the capital, and Tyrion came up with the wildfire? And then people thought Stannis was still going to win, and Tyrion came up with the idea to use the tunnels. The guy is so smart.

So, we know he's been to the wall before, and he's even been up on top of the wall, but I don't think he ever went through it. Well, if he gets sent there, sooner or later he'll have to go to the other side. He takes one look at that gate...


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

OMG. 

Well played, sir. Well played.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

literal LOL


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Spoilers, dude! The whole plot of Book 6 is Tyrion coming up with a better gate design.


Spoiler



Need I add "Not really"?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> Inside. Got it. Like the inner gate that the giant tried to ram down. That's inside.


No. We were talking about the first gate. The mechanism is exposed on the outside of the wall. That is a terrible design. Obviously, the gate and the mechanism should be on the inside. Just flipping the gate shown around so it is on the inside, with the tunnel widening (except for the desired wall thickness) to accomodate it, would be an improvement.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Spoilers, dude! The whole plot of Book 6 is Tyrion coming up with a better gate design.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Apparently Tyrion finds it to be a more challenging task than one might expect. That would explain this article from last week:

 Song of Ice and Fire Could Be 8, Not 7, Books


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Apparently Tyrion finds it to be a more challenging task than one might expect. That would explain this article from last week:
> 
> Song of Ice and Fire Could Be 8, Not 7, Books


Right, it was originally just supposed to be a POV chapter for Tyrion in Book 6. But as always, Martin got carried away, and it ended up being the entire book. So the rest of Book 6 got pushed into 7, and 7 to 8.

And even though I'm joking, you just KNOW it could happen!


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

Game Of Thrones in an office






quite a few chuckles to be had.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

john4200 said:


> No. We were talking about the first gate. The mechanism is exposed on the outside of the wall. That is a terrible design. Obviously, the gate and the mechanism should be on the inside. Just flipping the gate shown around so it is on the inside, with the tunnel widening (except for the desired wall thickness) to accomodate it, would be an improvement.


I agree that, as shown, it's not a good looking design.

But isn't the primary gate on most medieval castles the drawbridge? (Backed by a vertically dropping portcullis). That makes it harder to approach by forcing you to come through the moat, but it's also closing the entrance and it's on the exterior and almost as exposed as the gate here.

Of course the castles were designed with murder holes above the entance tunnel, so if the drawbridge was forced the defenders can drop sharp or burning things on anyone trying to get by the portcullis. (Castle walls not being as thick as The Wall the portcullis is closer to the drawbridge than the one on the show was to the gate, but similar concept)

Anyway random thoughts.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Jonathan_S said:


> But isn't the primary gate on most medieval castles the drawbridge? (Backed by a vertically dropping portcullis). That makes it harder to approach by forcing you to come through the moat, but it's also closing the entrance and it's on the exterior and almost as exposed as the gate here.
> 
> Of course the castles were designed with murder holes above the entance tunnel, so if the drawbridge was forced the defenders can drop sharp or burning things on anyone trying to get by the portcullis. (Castle walls not being as thick as The Wall the portcullis is closer to the drawbridge than the one on the show was to the gate, but similar concept)


The gate shown in this episode was more like a portcullis gate with a solid backing than like a drawbridge, so that is what I was talking about when comparing to medieval castles. I agree that many castle gates had additional fortifications beyond a solid gate and/or portcullis. Moats, drawbridges, barbicans, etc.

The builders of the Wall could have done a lot more to fortify that tunnel entrance, assuming they had decided they must have a tunnel at all. They could have dug a deep trench and put sharp steel in the bottom of the pit. Then they could have a drawbridge. They also could have used stone and ice to build a barbican. They could have built battlements in the wall 50 feet above the tunnel, with machiolations. And the tunnel itself could have had a lot more portcullises with murder holes.

Basically, the entire design of that tunnel and fortifications is poor. But most of what I just mentioned are omissions, which might be excused by saying that the builders never anticipated a human and giant siege. Perhaps they were more concerned with other types of enemies. But the gate design, as shown, is just bad. It would not have taken significantly more effort to do it right.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

You know none of it is real so there were no builders and there is no gate. There. You can sleep better now.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> You know none of it is real so there were no builders and there is no gate. There. You can sleep better now.


If there were an infinite quantity of parallel universes of our own, then it's very possible one of them could have that gate design.

Oh, and just to give john4200 eternal nightmares, this exists somewhere in Estonia:


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> Oh, and just to give john4200 eternal nightmares, this exists somewhere in Estonia:


No, that is just a portcullis. The actual gate clearly has the doors and the mechanism on the inside.

Even so, that is a terrible portcullis design. Most portcullises are not on the outside like that.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DUDE_NJX said:


> You know none of it is real so there were no builders and there is no gate. There. You can sleep better now.


Why don't you start the episode thread each week? You can just say, none of it is real. Nothing to discuss here. Move along.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> You know none of it is real so there were no builders and there is no gate. There. You can sleep better now.


That's the fun of this. People discussing it like it is real or grr Martin or the tv writers are experts at castle building.

It's just a tv show.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> That's the fun of this. People discussing it like it is real or grr Martin or the tv writers are experts at castle building.
> 
> It's just a tv show.


Or that the set builders take the time to make the equipment look and operate with historical accuracy.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Or that the set builders take the time to make the equipment look and operate with historical accuracy.


 All of the above. And more.

And come to think of it, it is NOT historical even. It is fantasy. Another planet. Different traditions and different growth of science and engineering.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Hodor. Hodor, Hodor, Hodor. Hodor.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> No. We were talking about the first gate. The mechanism is exposed on the outside of the wall. That is a terrible design. Obviously, the gate and the mechanism should be on the inside. Just flipping the gate shown around so it is on the inside, with the tunnel widening (except for the desired wall thickness) to accomodate it, would be an improvement.


Once again, picking cherries. And you even went for the low hanging fruit (the comment that was meant to be a joke).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Oh, and just to give john4200 eternal nightmares, this exists somewhere in Estonia:


No kidding. If those chains give way, those spike could seriously hurt someone. What a terrible design. And that window...it's only half protected.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> And you even went for the low hanging fruit (the comment that was meant to be a joke).


Hmmm. I thought jokes were supposed to be funny and legitimate comments were supposed to make sense. But nothing in that post was funny and none of it made sense. So I am at a loss. Maybe you should label your jokes better. 

And what you call "picking cherries", I call searching the entire tree (grove?) for something -- anything -- that is ripe. If you do not like it, I suggest writing shorter posts with just your strongest point.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

A Song of Fire and Nize.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

heySkippy said:


>


QFT


DUDE_NJX said:


> literal LOL


+1


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

...and whose idea was it to place the "ye olde tray to holdeth the smoking firesticks" in that position?

Clearly that would interfere with the closing gate!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> For a legitimate challenge, try to win the debate on facts and merit of argument.


Most people do present facts and well-reasoned arguments. The problem is that you don't recognize any fact or argument that does not fit your usually-wrong narrative.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> Most people do present facts and well-reasoned arguments.


Do you have any facts to back up that bald assertion?


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I believe the facts back up john4200, if not why isn't there a Lego Game of Thrones set yet? Can you answer that all you nay-sayers or are you just making up stuff?

BAM! Game, Set, Match!


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Do you have any facts to back up that bald assertion?


I think you mean 'bold' assertion but I'm reluctant to point that out because I don't have any facts to prove it except 'bald' assertion doesn't really make any sense.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

jakerock said:


> I think you mean 'bold' assertion but I'm reluctant to point that out because I don't have any facts to prove it except 'bald' assertion doesn't really make any sense.


No, I meant bald. Look it up.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

john4200 said:


> No, I meant bald. Look it up.


I did. It took a second google and looking further down the list to find a reference that made sense but I now concur.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Do you have any facts to back up that bald assertion?


Yes. Feel free to revisit the argument we had a few threads ago.



jakerock said:


> I did. It took a second google and looking further down the list to find a reference that made sense but I now concur.


one look at my avatar would have cleared up any confusion!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> one look at my avatar would have cleared up any confusion!


Actually, that avatar confuses me.  Why are there ants in that guy's ear, and why is an albino anteater in a sweater the best way to get them out?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Actually, that avatar confuses me.  Why are there ants in that guy's ear, and why is an albino anteater in a sweater the best way to get them out?


I spoil my anteater...it started out as a joke, now he will only eat if the ants are in my ear!


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