# Time warp could cause millions of old 'PowerKEY' set-tops (& cablecards) to go on the blink



## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

Note this could affect ANY cable system that uses SA/Cisco PowerKEY CC's, which includes Tivo's:



https://www.lightreading.com/cable-tech/time-warp-could-cause-millions-of-old-powerkey-set-tops-to-go-on-blink/d/d-id/782018?





> Those devices could include operator-supplied set-tops originally made by the likes of S-A, Cisco and Technicolor, *certain TiVo DVRs* and the few HD televisions equipped with CableCARD slots that remain in existence.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dishrich said:


> Note this could affect ANY cable system that uses SA/Cisco PowerKEY CC's, which includes Tivo's:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.lightreading.com/cable-tech/time-warp-could-cause-millions-of-old-powerkey-set-tops-to-go-on-blink/d/d-id/782018?


Hmmm...I wonder which "certain TiVo DVRs" we're talking about?


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## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

Just a few were Cisco or Technicolor.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiVo_digital_video_recorders


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Hmmm...I wonder which "certain TiVo DVRs" we're talking about?


I think that's just bad phrasing due to an unfamiliarity with the Tivo product line. From my reading of the issue, it's any Cable Card Tivo, so Series 3+, on a system still using Scientific Atlanta/Cisco cards based on PowerKey. The problem is the Card, not which Series X Tivo it's actually in. 

It sounds like they can deal/are dealing with it via a firmware update to the PowerKey CCs; the question is whether CablcCo's will see it in their interest to both pay for and push a Firmware update, to a steadily decreasing/increasingly marginal segment of their user base, especially in another 2.5 years from now and when the last public release PowerKey firmware version was from ~2015, IIRC.


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## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

dishrich said:


> Note this could affect ANY cable system that uses SA/Cisco PowerKEY CC's, which includes Tivo's:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.lightreading.com/cable-tech/time-warp-could-cause-millions-of-old-powerkey-set-tops-to-go-on-blink/d/d-id/782018?


If you have a Tivo with a Motorola / Arris cable cards do you have to worry?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tatergator1 said:


> I think that's just bad phrasing due to an unfamiliarity with the Tivo product line. From my reading of the issue, it's any Cable Card Tivo, so Series 3+, on a system still using Scientific Atlanta/Cisco cards based on PowerKey. The problem is the Card, not which Series X Tivo it's actually in.


So is there any way to tell if we're affected? Short of yanking the card out, which I'd really rather not do?


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So is there any way to tell if we're affected? Short of yanking the card out, which I'd really rather not do?


In the Tivo Settings menus, find the "CableCard for installers" or something like that menu option, and load some of the CC diagnostics screens. I think they will explicitly state somewhere "Cisco" for type of Card. If nothing else, look for a 'Software Version" listing in one of those screens and if you see the text string "PKEY" anywhere, you have Cisco/SA card using PowerKey.

Sorry I can't be more specific on actual menu paths, but I'm not in these very often and just get there by reflex when i actually need them.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yep, "PKEY" shows up in the OS name.

Hopefully Xfinity will be on this...


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## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

On Comcast as well but my card is Arris and no PKEY anywhere in the cablecard menus.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

_Millions of digital cable set-tops that use the "PowerKEY" conditional access (CA) system originally developed by Scientific-Atlanta decades ago could go on the blink in *late 2024 *due to an internal computing clock issue that will cause the devices to "time out" and become inoperable. _


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

tatergator1 said:


> I think that's just bad phrasing due to an unfamiliarity with the Tivo product line. From my reading of the issue, it's any Cable Card Tivo, so Series 3+, on a system still using Scientific Atlanta/Cisco cards based on PowerKey. The problem is the Card, not which Series X Tivo it's actually in.
> 
> It sounds like they can deal/are dealing with it via a firmware update to the PowerKey CCs; the question is whether CablcCo's will see it in their interest to both pay for and push a Firmware update, to a steadily decreasing/increasingly marginal segment of their user base, especially in another 2.5 years from now and when the last public release PowerKey firmware version was from ~2015, IIRC.


The cable company’s own STBs with CCs would also be affected and those numbers are not marginal.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

cwoody222 said:


> The cable company’s own STBs with CCs would also be affected and those numbers are not marginal.


Right, but some of that inventory is going to be using directly integrated PowerKey, which the article indicates essentially doesn’t have a solution outside of replacement. It’s also totally conceivable that the providers decide that, even for boxes manufactured in the early days of the old CC mandated where an actual CC was integrated into the box, it’s simpler to just swap consumer equipment. Those boxes could be pushing 15 years old at this point, and they may just decide to rid themselves of old equipment.

Perhaps that’s a silver lining, but who know’s how each provider is going to do the cost benefit math for their particular circumstances.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

KevTech said:


> On Comcast as well but my card is Arris and no PKEY anywhere in the cablecard menus.


Same here.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I’m on Fios and my CC screen reports manufacturer Motorola.


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## MurrayJimW (Apr 21, 2004)

Spectrum here (Charter) with a Cisco CC. I firmly believe they will abandon the platform altogether in November 2024. They have already made getting a CC almost impossible. I have a friend I gifted a Tivo Premiere to several months ago and he is still waiting on a tuning adapter and CC for use with it. They simply keep telling him they are out of stock. I would assume I'd get the same treatment should one of mine fail for some reason. I have certainly gotten my money's worth using the Tivo ecosystem for better than 20 years now with lifetime subscriptions on the many boxes I've owned through the years. This will be a painful transition though because I am currently running two Tivo's with three minis so I'm essentially covering 5 cable boxes with DVR functionality for $6 per month. I am done with Spectrum when they drop support -


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

MurrayJimW said:


> This will be a painful transition though because I am currently running two Tivo's with three minis so I'm essentially covering 5 cable boxes with DVR functionality


This raises the question... what do the cablecos offer to recreate this functionality? I have two Roamios, and four Minis, powering six TVs. I hate to think what I'd need to do to recreate this via Comcast.
_

[Yes, I saw you said "Charter", but I'm curious in general]_


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## BosTV (Aug 6, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> I’m on Fios and my CC screen reports manufacturer Motorola.


Same for me. Do we have any info confirming that Motorola cards won't encounter a similar problem?


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## someperson (Aug 13, 2017)

My parents are on Comcast and unfortunately DO have a PowerKEY CC. I'm guessing this will likely be end of the line for their TiVo...


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## driverseven (Oct 11, 2007)

I had one of these boxes from Altice (Optimum) and the Tivo cable card stopped working about a year ago. Altice had no interest in fixing it. I switched to FIOS and frankly, their cable software is pretty damn good, maybe better than Tivo. (I still use a Tivo Stream for Netflix, Hulu, and Prime)


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

MurrayJimW said:


> Spectrum here (Charter) with a Cisco CC. I firmly believe they will abandon the platform altogether in November 2024. They have already made getting a CC almost impossible. I have a friend I gifted a Tivo Premiere to several months ago and he is still waiting on a tuning adapter and CC for use with it. They simply keep telling him they are out of stock. I would assume I'd get the same treatment should one of mine fail for some reason. I have certainly gotten my money's worth using the Tivo ecosystem for better than 20 years now with lifetime subscriptions on the many boxes I've owned through the years. This will be a painful transition though because I am currently running two Tivo's with three minis so I'm essentially covering 5 cable boxes with DVR functionality for $6 per month. I am done with Spectrum when they drop support -


Spectrum (TWC) here as well with one Cablecard (Cisco) & external tuning adapter in a base Tivo Roamio.

Bought that Roamio when they first came out back in August 2013, then immediately upgraded to a 3TB drive.

Very few problems in all the time I've had it setup...might have to reboot the TA a few times annually.

Will keep it until it stops working, then add an amplified external antenna to my chimney & switch that Roamio over to antenna...does Dish still offer their antenna installation service?


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## wighty (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm on Comcast with a TiVO Edge using a Motorola M card. I parsed through all the CC sreens under the Settings menu and did not see any PKey text


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## misterclick (Oct 24, 2012)

dishrich said:


> Note this could affect ANY cable system that uses SA/Cisco PowerKEY CC's, which includes Tivo's:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.lightreading.com/cable-tech/time-warp-could-cause-millions-of-old-powerkey-set-tops-to-go-on-blink/d/d-id/782018?


😱😱😱😲😲😲 We're doomed!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Man, I am SO TIRED of TiVo being doomed!

For 20 years now, TiVo's been doomed!



(I have fond memories of signing up here, only to learn that TiVo was doomed because Replay was going to have it for lunch...)


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## CopRock (Jul 13, 2014)

I am glad I got off Spectrum Cable and my Roamio is for OTA stuff now, the image quality on DirecTV stream is so much better than it ever could be with either TiVo or Spectrum’s own Cable boxes and much lower price to boot with just a few channels that I miss


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

astrohip said:


> This raises the question... what do the cablecos offer to recreate this functionality? I have two Roamios, and four Minis, powering six TVs. *I hate to think what I'd need to do to recreate this via Comcast.*


With Comcast, you can use the Xfinity Stream (XS) app (on a streaming media device, smart TV, mobile device, or computer) to duplicate most DVR functions, to include watching live TV or recordings, schedule or delete a recording, et al. You do not necessarily need separate Xfinity client boxes for this purpose.

I have been using XS quite a bit lately to record/watch Golden State Warrior games on my sister's Comcast system in the Bay Area/CA from my home in Atlanta (I am an authorized user on her account since I set it up for her). I would equate the experience to using a Mini or other similar client box in terms of functionality if not ease of use.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

chiguy50 said:


> With Comcast, you can use the Xfinity Stream (XS) app (on a streaming media device, smart TV, mobile device, or computer) to duplicate most DVR functions, to include watching live TV or recordings, schedule or delete a recording, et al. You do not necessarily need separate Xfinity client boxes for this purpose.
> 
> I have been using XS quite a bit lately to record/watch Golden State Warrior games on my sister's Comcast system in the Bay Area/CA from my home in Atlanta (I am an authorized user on her account since I set it up for her). I would equate the experience to using a Mini or other similar client box in terms of functionality if not ease of use.


One is actually streaming when doing this? Or streaming from the base DVR? Does Trick Play work?


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

astrohip said:


> One is actually streaming when doing this? Or streaming from the base DVR? Does Trick Play work?


I believe the streaming can occur from the DVR or from cloud storage, but I have only been streaming from my sister's DVR.

Yes, trick play works, but as I intimated it is not as user-friendly as on a TiVo (nothing is, is it?). I have not experimented with live TV yet, but then I almost never watch live TV on my system either. I record everything, especially including sports events, so as to avoid commercial breaks or to fast-forward through a lull in the action.


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## Lesley Sterling (Jul 3, 2020)

Bruce24 said:


> If you have a Tivo with a Motorola / Arris cable cards do you have to worry?


I have a Motorola cable card too shown on my cable card status screen. I’ve been through all of the pairing screens and haven’t found Powerkey anywhere.

Obviously I am affected because I’ve been getting the letters and I currently can’t get half of my channels. Why isn’t Charter more forthcoming with truthful information? Unless they are TRYING to get rid of cable cards, tuning adapters, TiVos and all the headaches that go with them?


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

Motorola &/or Arris CC's have NOTHING to do with this topic & are not affected...


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## Lesley Sterling (Jul 3, 2020)

dishrich said:


> Motorola &/or Arris CC's have NOTHING to do with this topic & are not affected...


Are you saying this topic (high split / Charter trying to get rid of cable cards) has nothing to do with Charter customers who currently have Tivos that use Motorola cable cards and tuning adapters?








Thanks for diagnosing my Tivo issues, that I haven’t detailed online, from wherever you are! I’m certain your knowledge of my equipment, knowledge, setup, Charter setup, tech rolls and phone support is much more in depth than all of us put together. 

What do I know, I’m only missing half the channels I’m supposed to receive and the tech told me the reason why. I bet he doesn’t know anything either.


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## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

Lesley Sterling said:


> What do I know, I’m only missing half the channels I’m supposed to receive and the tech told me the reason why.


Could be because your provider has changed those channels to IPTV which the Tivo can not do.


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## Lesley Sterling (Jul 3, 2020)

KevTech said:


> Could be because your provider has changed those channels to IPTV which the Tivo can not do.


The tech specifically said “high split.” I don’t know what it means and don’t really care. I just know what they did broke my service and, as usual, they are dragging their feet trying NOT to come up with a solution so they won’t have to purchase new equipment that is really just throwing good money down the toilet.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

Lesley Sterling said:


> Are you saying this topic (high split / Charter trying to get rid of cable cards) has nothing to do with Charter customers who currently have Tivos that use Motorola cable cards and tuning adapters?


No, I'm saying it has nothing to do with the *posted topic of this entire thread* re: "Time Warp" I originally posted, which is at the top of this page...& (not surprisingly) has gone a tad off-course. It also affects any/all cable systems with these CC's, NOT just Charter & NOT just re: high-split.
There's umpteen other threads that have been posted all over TCF specifically re: Charter high-split, which I notice you have posted there as well; hopefully you get an answer that you can give another (witty) reply to. 








-spectrum sunsets cable cards


Was that six months free Hulu bundle offer from your wireless provider? Can I assume that it is not for the ad-free tier? BTW, last week after having let my Apple TV+ sub expire for a few days, I took advantage of stacking two offers (three months directly from Apple and four months from...




www.tivocommunity.com


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

chiguy50 said:


> I believe the streaming can occur from the DVR or from cloud storage, but I have only been streaming from my sister's DVR.


Any streaming is ONLY from the cloud (copies), as there is no need (nor was there most likely an easy way) for a 3rd party streamer to connect directly to a XG1 physical DVR.
All XG1 physical DVR's have come with the cloud counterpart for several years now, so streaming works exactly the same, regardless if you even have any model physical DVR(s). Also remember that any/all IP-only channels, are ONLY recorded in the cloud, whether you have a XG1 physical DVR or not.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

dishrich said:


> Any streaming is ONLY from the cloud (copies), as there is no need (nor was there most likely an easy way) for a 3rd party streamer to connect directly to a XG1 physical DVR.
> All XG1 physical DVR's have come with the cloud counterpart for several years now, so streaming works exactly the same, regardless if you even have any model physical DVR(s). Also remember that any/all IP-only channels, are ONLY recorded in the cloud, whether you have a XG1 physical DVR or not.


I admit that I do not know how this works over Xfinity's system, but I have usually been accessing recordings labelled as coming from the DVR. None of them are from IP-only channels, so that is not the issue here.

Remember, this case is one where the remote user is logged in to the account owner's Xfinity account and streaming via the Xfinity Stream app. However the actual mechanism is structured, I imagine it works the same way for an on-site user utilizing XS via any client box, whether from Comcast or a third party.


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## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

wighty said:


> I'm on Comcast with a TiVO Edge using a Motorola M card. I parsed through all the CC sreens under the Settings menu and did not see any PKey text


Same here. Comcast on a Roamio Pro with Motorola M Card. Nothing about a PKey on the Cable Card screens. Fingers Crossed for November 2024.


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## TiVoJedi (Mar 1, 2002)

Lesley Sterling said:


> Are you saying this topic (high split / Charter trying to get rid of cable cards) has nothing to do with Charter customers who currently have Tivos that use Motorola cable cards and tuning adapters?
> View attachment 77608
> 
> Thanks for diagnosing my Tivo issues, that I haven’t detailed online, from wherever you are! I’m certain your knowledge of my equipment, knowledge, setup, Charter setup, tech rolls and phone support is much more in depth than all of us put together.
> ...


 In my history of TiVo bolt and CC w/ Spectrum/Charter and a TA when I had missing channels it was 100% signal related. There was an amplifier on the fritz a few houses down at a junction box that connects to the box in my yard that connects to my house. The engineer that came out to fix it last said weaker frequencies is what can cause some channels to be fine and other not ‘tuneable’ at all. There can be some attenuation in the signal on certain frequencies so the tuning adapter cannot lock and it’s cast as ‘missing’ channels. Hope this information helps get all your channels restored.


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## jsherknus (Jan 2, 2009)

dishrich said:


> Note this could affect ANY cable system that uses SA/Cisco PowerKEY CC's, which includes Tivo's:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.lightreading.com/cable-tech/time-warp-could-cause-millions-of-old-powerkey-set-tops-to-go-on-blink/d/d-id/782018?


It's like Y2K all over again. 😂 

However, I think ALL cable cards will be terminated by then. All the cable providers are going to IPTV or OTT. I mean every single channel available today is available over broadband...even other countries...and has been for the past several years. Comcast has already had their Xfinity Stream product for over 2 years.

Today, major motion pictures aren't even on film anymore. They are transmitted to the movie theater company and theaters using 256-bit AES security and DRM over the internet, or on a hard drive that the theater puts on their server.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Man, I am SO TIRED of TiVo being doomed!
> 
> For 20 years now, TiVo's been doomed!
> 
> ...


Well, just relax. This might be the final time that takes away all your pain.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

chiguy50 said:


> I imagine it works the same way for an on-site user utilizing XS via any client box, whether from Comcast or a third party.


Even in the same house as the DVR, only Xf client boxes (XiD, etc.) stream directly from the XG1, while 3rd party streamers still are streaming from the cloud.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

As background, while some other CableCARD conditional access encryption systems exist, in the US most operators choose either PowerKEY (Scientific Atlanta), or MediaCipher (Motorola), and a few choose VideoGuard (NDS). At this point most of the major operators have a mix of conditional access solutions in their various acquired franchises (as some of the acquisitions were using Motorola solutions, and some were using Scientific Atlanta solutions, and what was in use was kept). All of the original companies that designed these conditional access solutions have been acquired, had assets spun off, but the branding of the underlying solutions are still seen. FWIW, The largest NDS operator in the US I was aware of (Cablevision) converted to PowerKEY some time ago.

There can be many issues with CableCARD support, but this particular reported issue by the OP is only about the PowerKEY CableCARDs and their scheduled failure in late 2024 unless changes are made in at least some deployments.

It is slightly unclear in the wording on the lightreading article if the issue is in the PowerKEY CableCARD chip itself, or the secure (enclave/processor) chip in the host that it talks to (there were a couple of companies that provided the host chips during that period of time for STB manufacturer). But the words from the current owner of the PowerKEY assets that it can be solved "via an update to the client conditional access software image" suggests that it can be fixed if the device manufacturer wishes to fix it.

I would *strongly* recommend those with TiVo's using PowerKEY CableCARD solution reach out to TiVo (open a support case) and ask if TiVo will be impacted, and, if so, whether TiVo will issue such an update. The answer might vary in terms of whether the device is considered legacy. And then get back to this topic with the official reply.


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## ITGrouch (Jan 7, 2015)

dishrich said:


> Even in the same house as the DVR, only Xf client boxes (XiD, etc.) stream directly from the XG1, while 3rd party streamers still are streaming from the cloud.


Comcast has started phasing out their DVRs, according to the manager of my local Xfinity store. I had a Xfinity X1 XG1v4 4K physical DVR that failed and it was replaced with a X1 Xi6 4K streaming box and I kept the 10.00/month 150 hours of cloud DVR storage space. One issue is that some phone support reps will tell you that a physical DVR is required for using a streaming box, but the current policy is that a physical DVR is NOT required for an X1 TV streaming box.


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## ITGrouch (Jan 7, 2015)

jsherknus said:


> It's like Y2K all over again. 😂
> 
> However, I think ALL cable cards will be terminated by then. All the cable providers are going to IPTV or OTT. I mean every single channel available today is available over broadband...even other countries...and has been for the past several years. Comcast has already had their Xfinity Stream product for over 2 years.
> 
> Today, major motion pictures aren't even on film anymore. They are transmitted to the movie theater company and theaters using 256-bit AES security and DRM over the internet, or on a hard drive that the theater puts on their server.


Traditional QAM cable TV service will eventually be discontinued, as the cable companies are slowly switching their TV service to IPTV and using the QAM TV channel space to upgrade their Internet service speeds. Comcast is my service provider and they are moving more and more QAM channels to IPTV in our service area. That is why I have setup my cable/OTA TiVo Bolt+ to use as a OTA DVR and I have an Xfinity X1 Xi6 4K streaming box and 150 hours cloud DVR storage space for my TV service.


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## ITGrouch (Jan 7, 2015)

CommunityMember said:


> As background, while some other CableCARD conditional access encryption systems exist, in the US most operators choose either PowerKEY (Scientific Atlanta), or MediaCipher (Motorola), and a few choose VideoGuard (NDS). At this point most of the major operators have a mix of conditional access solutions in their various acquired franchises (as some of the acquisitions were using Motorola solutions, and some were using Scientific Atlanta solutions, and what was in use was kept). All of the original companies that designed these conditional access solutions have been acquired, had assets spun off, but the branding of the underlying solutions are still seen. FWIW, The largest NDS operator in the US I was aware of (Cablevision) converted to PowerKEY some time ago.
> 
> There can be many issues with CableCARD support, but this particular reported issue by the OP is only about the PowerKEY CableCARDs and their scheduled failure in late 2024 unless changes are made in at least some deployments.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that customers with the PowerKEY CableCARD should contact TiVo. My concern is they aren't going to upgrade the client conditional access software image, even for the Bolt and Edge platforms.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

Offtopic, but....



ITGrouch said:


> Comcast is my service provider and they are moving more and more QAM channels to IPTV in our service area.


In my area I have not seen many channels being moved from QAM to IPTV (only), although there are some from time to time, but Comcast pretty much only offers new channels in IPTV (with exceptions that make sense to Comcast). For those who only want access to some basic channels, that is not yet impacting, but after HSI mid-split will come FDX, and the prep for that change will likely accelerate the migration to IPTV (only) as clearing ~50 MHz is relatively easy compared to clearing the next 100-150MHz.

Linear QAM (like the cat) is not dead yet, but, as the story is told to make it easier for some to accept, it is up on the roof.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

ITGrouch said:


> One issue is that some phone support reps will tell you that a physical DVR is required for using a streaming box, but the current policy is that a physical DVR is NOT required for an X1 TV streaming box.


Agree, which is why I said on my 1st post:


dishrich said:


> All XG1 physical DVR's have come with the cloud counterpart for several years now, so *streaming works exactly the same, regardless if you even have any model physical DVR(s).*


FWIW, our local office routinely (attempts) to replace XG1 DVR's with XG2 non-DVR QAM boxes, especially if you have XiD's, which must have at least 1 XG1 or XG2 box to function. BUT if you insist on another XG1 replacement "with the front clock" (their words, not mine) they will acquiesce. My neighbor just had a tech out last week after a power surge & his XG1 wouldn't boot up...the tech replaced it with another XG1 without any prompting by my neighbor. (although I forewarned him about them trying to swap it for an XG2)


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## wjbatlanta (Jun 29, 2011)

.....my next question would be......what does *TIVO / Xperi* plan to do? 
So many have spent lots of money on hardware / subscription memberships (I bought a new edge this past March w/lifetime along with my old bolt w/lifetime) that could potentially be useless.......??
My thought process is example: what if *AT&T or VERIZON* would ever decide that they will no longer support any *APPLE* devices on their phone systems and networks.....

If you speak to the cable company, a manager at *SPECTRUM* explains that these "cable card" agreements were made many years ago with *TIVO* before the *Xperi* acquisition. ......*AND THEY CONTINTUE TO SELL NEW TIVOs WITH LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTIONS...........whaaaa?*


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

wjbatlanta said:


> .....my next question would be......what does *TIVO / Xperi* plan to do?


They intend to most likely do nothing, this is not a business that makes them money.
The requirement for a cable Tivo is a CableCARD, all they have to do is state that, it's your choice as a consumer if you want to buy a product in a market that may be shrinking in the future.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dianebrat said:


> They intend to most likely do nothing, this is not a business that makes them money.
> The requirement for a cable Tivo is a CableCARD, all they have to do is state that, it's your choice as a consumer if you want to buy a product in a market that may be shrinking in the future.


Of course if they do nothing, in a couple of years they'll be making even less money (or losing even more) when they suddenly lose a big chunk of their existing customer base...


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

CommunityMember said:


> In my area I have not seen many channels being moved from QAM to IPTV (only), although there are some from time to time, but Comcast pretty much only offers new channels in IPTV (with exceptions that make sense to Comcast). For those who only want access to some basic channels, that is not yet impacting, but after HSI mid-split will come FDX, and the prep for that change will likely accelerate the migration to IPTV (only) as clearing ~50 MHz is relatively easy compared to clearing the next 100-150MHz.
> 
> Linear QAM (like the cat) is not dead yet, but, as the story is told to make it easier for some to accept, it is up on the roof.


Comcast has stated that they will begin offer "symmetrical multi-gig" cable internet in some markets by the end of 2023. And I don't think those kinds of speeds will be possible with mid-split alone; I believe it will require FDX as well. As you state, that kind of network upgrade will be a logical (or even necessary) point at which they dump QAM.

Meanwhile, Charter is currently doing high-split upgrades and will later go with extended spectrum DOCSIS rather than FDX. But those upgrades also appear to be spelling the end of support for CableCARD (and possibly QAM altogether) on that network.

And lastly, Comcast and Charter have formed a joint venture, now dubbed Xumo, to bring to market streaming boxes and smart TVs built on Comcast's X1/Flex software and app store. Comcast already uses that platform to power their standalone IPTV-only boxes, such as the Xi6. The first Xumo Streaming TV boxes are supposed to roll out from the joint venture by the end of 2023, presumably for both Comcast and Charter customers.

In light of all the above, it's quite possible, even likely, that neither Comcast or Charter will be supporting CableCARD devices (either their own STBs or retail devices like TiVo) by late 2024, when this PowerKEY time warp bug could be a problem. It's just another reason for them to hasten the migration away from that outdated technology.


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## Roger Rubinstein (Jan 29, 2021)

MurrayJimW said:


> Spectrum here (Charter) with a Cisco CC. I firmly believe they will abandon the platform altogether in November 2024. They have already made getting a CC almost impossible. I have a friend I gifted a Tivo Premiere to several months ago and he is still waiting on a tuning adapter and CC for use with it. They simply keep telling him they are out of stock. I would assume I'd get the same treatment should one of mine fail for some reason. I have certainly gotten my money's worth using the Tivo ecosystem for better than 20 years now with lifetime subscriptions on the many boxes I've owned through the years. This will be a painful transition though because I am currently running two Tivo's with three minis so I'm essentially covering 5 cable boxes with DVR functionality for $6 per month. I am done with Spectrum when they drop support -


You didn’t say where you live but here in Rochester NY, I just walked in and they gave me a pre-packaged kit with cable card and adapter for my new Edge. I wonder if it’s regional and if there’s enough volume, they’ll keep CC’s. When I turned in a cable box, I noticed it had a CC installed in it, too.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course if they do nothing, in a couple of years they'll be making even less money (or losing even more) when they suddenly lose a big chunk of their existing customer base...


I have a strong feeling the money from the Tivo consumer side of the business is already at a loss, and the less machines they have using the servers and getting serviced, will result in them keeping the status quo.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

wjbatlanta said:


> .....my next question would be......what does *TIVO / Xperi* plan to do?
> So many have spent lots of money on hardware / subscription memberships (I bought a new edge this past March w/lifetime along with my old bolt w/lifetime) that could potentially be useless.......??
> My thought process is example: what if *AT&T or VERIZON* would ever decide that they will no longer support any *APPLE* devices on their phone systems and networks.....
> 
> If you speak to the cable company, a manager at *SPECTRUM* explains that these "cable card" agreements were made many years ago with *TIVO* before the *Xperi* acquisition. ......*AND THEY CONTINTUE TO SELL NEW TIVOs WITH LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTIONS...........whaaaa?*


What would you expect TiVo to do?

Discontinue their product line because of unspecified plans from unspecified providers with no timelines? Maybe they could require proof that you don’t have Spectrum and only sell to those customers? Or maybe they should just declare bankruptcy and walk away because Spectrum is sending scary letters to some of their customers.

Or, maybe they should continue to sell their products since they work perfectly fine as advertised.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

CommunityMember said:


> I would *strongly* recommend those with TiVo's using PowerKEY CableCARD solution reach out to TiVo (open a support case) and ask if TiVo will be impacted, and, if so, whether TiVo will issue such an update. The answer might vary in terms of whether the device is considered legacy. And then get back to this topic with the official reply.


Is this even within TiVo’s power to fix? From the article I read, it seemed clear it was up to the cable card manufacturer or perhaps the cable operator. Nowhere did I see that STB manufacturers had any power to correct the issue, even if they wanted to.


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## MurrayJimW (Apr 21, 2004)

Roger Rubinstein said:


> You didn’t say where you live but here in Rochester NY, I just walked in and they gave me a pre-packaged kit with cable card and adapter for my new Edge. I wonder if it’s regional and if there’s enough volume, they’ll keep CC’s. When I turned in a cable box, I noticed it had a CC installed in it, too.


I'm in Charlotte, NC and the friend that still has not acquired a card or tuner is in Columbia, SC. We're still hopeful they eventually ship them. The stores here (at least in Columbia) won't even take your equipment or issue CC related anymore. They insist you go to the UPS store to return equipment and all of their theirs is shipped unless you schedule a service call (for a fee).


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## RobUsdin (2 mo ago)

I just checked the Cisco CableCard from Altice/Optimum/Cablevision that is in one of our TIVOs and it shows PKEY in the diagnostic screen, and as such I am posting here so that others will be aware.


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## daytona675 (Dec 10, 2016)

driverseven said:


> I had one of these boxes from Altice (Optimum) and the Tivo cable card stopped working about a year ago. Altice had no interest in fixing it. I switched to FIOS and frankly, their cable software is pretty damn good, maybe better than Tivo. (I still use a Tivo Stream for Netflix, Hulu, and Prime)


FYI. A while back about a year ago Optimum stopped support for their old CC (NDS I think). They required a swap to a Powerkey card. As of today, my Powerkey cards on Optimum are functioning along with tuning adapters for both my Tivo bolt 3gb and HD Homerun.


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## phitaubill_7437 (7 mo ago)

Anyone have insights as to whether this issue will affect Motorola cards used by Verizon FIOS?


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

cwoody222 said:


> Is this even within TiVo’s power to fix? From the article I read, it seemed clear it was up to the cable card manufacturer or perhaps the cable operator. Nowhere did I see that STB manufacturers had any power to correct the issue, even if they wanted to.


The vendor who owns the PowerKey access talked about upgrades to the conditional access system. There are a couple of parts of the entire system, one in the CableCARD itself, and one in the host. Either, or both, may be impacted (and workaround in one might mitigate against issues in the other).

CableCARD vendors typically have a contractional obligation to support their firmware for many many decades. If this was just a CableCARD firmware issue it would be expected the vendor will update the firmware and all would be well, but the article explicitly called out TiVo as being impacted, so either the article is not entirely accurate (which would not be at all surprising), or TiVo has some work to do, too. 

Calling TiVo and opening a case will likely not get any better answer than "we are looking at it", but we don't know until customers with a contract and use PowerKey call and report here.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

phitaubill_7437 said:


> Anyone have insights as to whether this issue will affect Motorola cards used by Verizon FIOS?


Previously asked and answered in this thread.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

daytona675 said:


> FYI. A while back about a year ago Optimum stopped support for their old CC (NDS I think). They required a swap to a Powerkey card. As of today, my Powerkey cards on Optimum are functioning along with tuning adapters for both my Tivo bolt 3gb and HD Homerun.


Cablevision was one of the few (only?) US wins for VideoGuard (NDS) CableCARD CA. At some point (I have lost track of the when) Cisco bought NDS, so now had both PowerKey and NDS. Cisco (apparently) offered an attractive migration to PowerKey, and Cablevision took that off-ramp from VideoGuard (NDS). NDS, as I recall, had some specific operational particularities that were sufficiently different than the classic SCTE-55 approaches that was codified for the Motoroa and Scientific Atlanta solutions, which was probably another nail in its coffin.


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## daytona675 (Dec 10, 2016)

Thanks for the additional info. I was replying to someone's post about their cards no longer working on Optimum (Altice). I was wondering if they still were still using the old NDS card at the time because it was around the same time as the switch to Powerkey. It wouldn't surprise me if Optimum "refused" to fix the problem as suggested in their post because Optimum had no idea what the problem really was.


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## ITGrouch (Jan 7, 2015)

Roger Rubinstein said:


> You didn’t say where you live but here in Rochester NY, I just walked in and they gave me a pre-packaged kit with cable card and adapter for my new Edge. I wonder if it’s regional and if there’s enough volume, they’ll keep CC’s. When I turned in a cable box, I noticed it had a CC installed in it, too.


Don't bet on Charter supporting CableCARD when they start rolling out high split in all markets. You may have 2-4 years of CableCARD support in your market.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

CommunityMember said:


> Previously asked and answered in this thread.


Not answered in a super clean way - but it looks like a couple folks have checked Motorola cards (including on Verizon) and are not seeing references to PowerKey.


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## wjbatlanta (Jun 29, 2011)

cwoody222 said:


> What would you expect TiVo to do?
> 
> Discontinue their product line because of unspecified plans from unspecified providers with no timelines? Maybe they could require proof that you don’t have Spectrum and only sell to those customers? Or maybe they should just declare bankruptcy and walk away because Spectrum is sending scary letters to some of their customers.
> 
> Or, maybe they should continue to sell their products since they work perfectly fine as advertised.


k


cwoody222 said:


> What would you expect TiVo to do?
> 
> Discontinue their product line because of unspecified plans from unspecified providers with no timelines? Maybe they could require proof that you don’t have Spectrum and only sell to those customers? Or maybe they should just declare bankruptcy and walk away because Spectrum is sending scary letters to some of their customers.
> 
> Or, maybe they should continue to sell their products since they work perfectly fine as advertised.


I think you've miss my point..........back in late 2008 when TIVO got all of the major cable companies to discuss their plans with digital - TIVO had several plans.
The majority (and, larger) cable companies decided they'd go along with TIVO's cable card plan. Agreements were more than just handshakes (with Motorola and CISCO).

Now TIVO is no longer the same company nor same owners (just like most cable companies) and are still selling new boxes with lifetime memberships. 
I don't like the fact I just forked out almost $500 for a membership that may only be useful another year or, two. If cable companies continue to capture back cards TIVOs will no "work fine as advertised" 

As for bankruptcy, take a look at Xperi's balance sheet - they're not going anywhere........
Interesting piece in the WSJ a couple of months ago about Xperi and how they'll likely steer things away from DVR's without the cable companies partnering's and plans to dive deeper into the streaming world.

I've been watching SiliconeDust with lots of plans for the future (and pay plans only $35/yr)...........it looks to be a better plan with your home network.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

phitaubill_7437 said:


> Anyone have insights as to whether this issue will affect Motorola cards used by Verizon FIOS?


Nope, not a problem with Motorola.


CommunityMember said:


> Previously asked and answered in this thread.


So you wasted bandwidth being rude instead of just answering the question. I get it. Does that make you feel powerful?


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

wjbatlanta said:


> k
> 
> I think you've miss my point..........back in late 2008 when TIVO got all of the major cable companies to discuss their plans with digital - TIVO had several plans.
> The majority (and, larger) cable companies decided they'd go along with TIVO's cable card plan. Agreements were more than just handshakes (with Motorola and CISCO).
> ...


Um, no one went along with “TiVos cable card plan” in 2008 (TiVos first CC TiVo came out in 2006, BTW)

The cable card was the outcome of the federal government’s plan to create an open marketplace. That plan predated TiVo as a company.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableCARD



As for bankruptcy, I was being sarcastic.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

dslunceford said:


> Not answered in a super clean way - but it looks like a couple folks have checked Motorola cards (including on Verizon) and are not seeing references to PowerKey.


I guess this response was not clear? Or did you not trust dishrich's very explicit message?



dishrich said:


> Motorola &/or Arris CC's have NOTHING to do with this topic & are not affected...


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## bantar (Apr 27, 2004)

wjbatlanta said:


> Now TIVO is no longer the same company nor same owners (just like most cable companies) and are still selling new boxes with lifetime memberships.
> I don't like the fact I just forked out almost $500 for a membership that may only be useful another year or, two. If cable companies continue to capture back cards TIVOs will no "work fine as advertised"
> ...
> I've been watching SiliconeDust with lots of plans for the future (and pay plans only $35/yr)...........it looks to be a better plan with your home network.


Another alternative is ChannelsDVR. A monster thread is here: https://www.tivocommunity.com/threads/channels-dvr.584214/ I was an early adopter of Tivo and still love it, but features are dropping, so a few months ago, I started scouting and now have this running in parallel with my Tivos. Using both at the moment. I also looked at SiliconeDust, but it's a subset of ChannelsDVR.

One great thing about Tivo is that I can tune in to 2 or more live channels, let them buffer and then switch between these channels during commercials. This is when I turn the TV on, with no hard commitment to watch a specific show. You cannot do this with ChannelsDVR, HOWEVER, it has a new-age replacement. I just recently setup a new feature called a Virtual Channel. 

It allows me to create a channel of shows that I would be willing to watch in lieu of the live scenario. I tune in like a live channel, but the shows have the commercials already removed and are ones I like, because I created the channel. Tune to that channel and start watching. No need to channel surf looking for palatable content. For instance, I have one sitcom channel that includes Friends, Seinfeld, Futurama, etc. You can create a Westerns channel and more.


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## jwrothwell (Jan 29, 2021)

Yeah, I'm also running Channels DVR in parallel with my TiVo's, so that the eventual switch-over won't be so painful. I'm mostly using virtual channels with my "home movies" since I otherwise would never get around to watching our personal family videos, tho I also set up a TV comedy channel with every episode of Modern Family, Two and a Half Guys, Seinfeld, The Office, and Curb Your Enthusiasm.

My favorite things with Channels DVR is its automatic, nearly instantaneous and spot-on commercial skipping, the fact that it stores everything in easily-accessed, standard format files, ready for downloading for travel (I have its 8TB drive mapped as a network drive on my Windows desktop, even though Channels is running on a Raspberry Pi.) Though I also use its remote viewing over wi-fi and/or cell service -- being able to watch live TV or my own recordings from home while sitting at a Supercharger is a life-changer!

The only downsides I've found are, no ability to record the "pay" channels, the usual clunky play controls that all streaming services have, and the fact that it's not available on the usual streaming client devices (Roku, etc.), so I'm using the much more expensive Nvidia Shield. Fortunately, there are apps available for my phones and tablets.

All in all, it's a great Tivo alternative and eventual replacement -- until the cable companies (eventually) stop cooperating by working with TV Everywhere -- a very necessary component for my set-up.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

jwrothwell said:


> Yeah, I'm also running Channels DVR in parallel with my TiVo's, so that the eventual switch-over won't be so painful. I'm mostly using virtual channels with my "home movies" since I otherwise would never get around to watching our personal family videos, tho I also set up a TV comedy channel with every episode of Modern Family, Two and a Half Guys, Seinfeld, The Office, and Curb Your Enthusiasm.
> 
> My favorite things with Channels DVR is its automatic, nearly instantaneous and spot-on commercial skipping, the fact that it stores everything in easily-accessed, standard format files, ready for downloading for travel (I have its 8TB drive mapped as a network drive on my Windows desktop, even though Channels is running on a Raspberry Pi.) Though I also use its remote viewing over wi-fi and/or cell service -- being able to watch live TV or my own recordings from home while sitting at a Supercharger is a life-changer!
> 
> ...


How is the video quality for Channels Everywhere/Channels vs. TiVo and cable card?


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## bantar (Apr 27, 2004)

DigitalDawn said:


> How is the video quality for Channels Everywhere/Channels vs. TiVo and cable card?


The Cable Card is used for Authentication and thus decryption of your encrypted shows. TvE is the internet equivalent of the CableCard. It is the (validation of) Authentication for a specific stream. The streams are coming from the channel provider (e.g. ABC, Fox, Paramount, etc). Neither the CableCard, nor TvE has any influence on the quality of the channels being delivered. Quality comes from the source / provider.

Here's a press release on TvE: Adobe Pass for TV Everywhere: New Premium Video Authentication Solution Now Available After you read this release, reflect on the previous note that the channels/streams come from the source providers. There are many channels and thus many providers. TvE is a centralized validation service for the many providers. With Tivo and your cable system, you only have one provider - your cable system. They manage subscriptions for your channels thru the CableCard. Your authentication is the initial pairing of the CableCard.

I'll add this note: I have Frontier FIOS. I'm getting channels on my Tivo with my paid FIOS subscription. I'm also using the same FIOS subscription to receive those same channels using TvE. Just as you can login to HBO to Go by authenticating thru your Cable Provider with your HBO subscription, the same process is used for TvE channel authentication.

I will say that the initial setup of TvE does require some one-time logins to get various channels working. Then, once done, ChannelsDVR keeps these active for you. Since big conglomerates own many channels, you don't have to authenticate 100's of times. Also, not all providers support TvE currently, but the majority seem to support this. If I have a missing channel, I've not yet spotted it.


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## jwrothwell (Jan 29, 2021)

DigitalDawn said:


> How is the video quality for Channels Everywhere/Channels vs. TiVo and cable card?


I'm seeing the same video quality on Channels DVR as on my Roamio Tivo. The mpg files created show 1920x1080 resolution. But I don't watch any sports or other fast moving action so I can't speak to any artifacts that some people have complained of. I'm generally quite satisfied with the picture and sound.


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## tluxon (Feb 28, 2002)

DigitalDawn said:


> How is the video quality for Channels Everywhere/Channels vs. TiVo and cable card?


Channels DVR is going to record whatever the streaming service or tuner provides. I'm using OTA via the HDHR Quattro tuners and cable via an HDHR Prime, which uses a cable card just like the TiVos. In my experience, OTA gives the highest bitrate and many programs are still broadcast in 1080p. With cable card via Xfinity in the Seattle area almost every - if not all - channels are now coming through in 720p using the AVC codec at 59.94 fps. With TVE, I've been finding most everything at 720p, 29.97 fps with bitrates about 2/3 that of the cable card tuners.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

tluxon said:


> In my experience, OTA gives the highest bitrate and many programs are still broadcast in 1080p.


Unless it's a NextGen 3.0 OTA signal, NO other OTA channels are in 1080p; it's 1080i at best.
Also OTA pic quality varies greatly from one market to another; particularly due to these NG rollouts, OTA bitrates on many existing channels (both HD & SD) are actually falling, due to the consolidation of existing 1.0 channels onto other 1.0 transmitters, in order for NG broadcasters to maintain compatibility with existing tuners. Our market just got NG last week, which caused our local FOX broadcasts, to be consolidated onto our local ABC tower, which also already had 3 SD subchannels. Obviously the OTA 1.0 transmitters aren't magically getting more bandwidth out of their existing 6Mhz signals, so something has to give when these consolidations happen.


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## ITGrouch (Jan 7, 2015)

dishrich said:


> Unless it's a NextGen 3.0 OTA signal, NO other OTA channels are in 1080p; it's 1080i at best.
> Also OTA pic quality varies greatly from one market to another; particularly due to these NG rollouts, OTA bitrates on many existing channels (both HD & SD) are actually falling, due to the consolidation of existing 1.0 channels onto other 1.0 transmitters, in order for NG broadcasters to maintain compatibility with existing tuners. Our market just got NG last week, which caused our local FOX broadcasts, to be consolidated onto our local ABC tower, which also already had 3 SD subchannels. Obviously the OTA 1.0 transmitters aren't magically getting more bandwidth out of their existing 6Mhz signals, so something has to give when these consolidations happen.


In my market in the Nashville area, we have two towers (stations), WUXP and WNAB, that provide NG, and their 1.0 signals are transmitted on other station's towers. WUXP and WNAB transmitters/antennas are on the same candelabra tower.


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## tluxon (Feb 28, 2002)

dishrich said:


> Unless it's a NextGen 3.0 OTA signal, NO other OTA channels are in 1080p; it's 1080i at best.
> ...


Sorry, you're right - I meant to say 1080i, 29.97 fps. The local (to me) OTA bitrates are appreciably higher at often up to 10 MB/sec compared to often 3 to 6 MB/sec for cable and streaming channels. You may notice a difference in PQ when viewing Channels DVR programming away from home where you may wish to use transcoding to reduce the transmission data required..


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

tluxon said:


> Sorry, you're right - I meant to say 1080i, 29.97 fps. The local (to me) OTA bitrates are appreciably higher at often up to 10 MB/sec compared to often 3 to 6 MB/sec for cable and streaming channels. You may notice a difference in PQ when viewing Channels DVR programming away from home where you may wish to use transcoding to reduce the transmission data required..


If I was using an antenna for local stations and TVE for cable channels, would Channels combine them in the grid?


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## bantar (Apr 27, 2004)

DigitalDawn said:


> If I was using an antenna for local stations and TVE for cable channels, would Channels combine them in the grid?


Yes. You would do this thru an add-on box, HDHomeRun. Your antenna connects to this box and it produces streams in your home network. Channels can then grab these streams and have them show in the same feed as your other channels. ChannelsDVR can record these OTA streams. 

I don't have the HDHomeRun box, but I do have channels from both Frontier FIOS and YouTubeTV. If I had an HDHomeRun, I would see a unified TV Guide with all channels presented together. I would then have 3 separate sets of local channels to choose from because my paid services both have local channels as well. I can choose to show them all or just my favorite source. More here: Channels — How It Works


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

DigitalDawn said:


> How is the video quality for Channels Everywhere/Channels vs. TiVo and cable card?


Inferior. Variable, but definitely inferior overall.

To be fair, in fact, a handful of channels are _better_ via TVE than on Fios -- channels that are only SD on Fios, but HD via TVE. But again, overall... TVE is noticeably worse, both by my eye, and by the stats. For example, the C-SPAN channels are all some weird sub-HD format, while many other channels are low bit rate, and/or low frame rate, etc. Also, not every channel on the cable system is available via TVE at all. (Most are, though.)


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

wmcbrine said:


> Inferior. Variable, but definitely inferior overall.


I suspect part of the issue is that these TVE streams are hosted by the content owners themselves, and their intended target was providing their content for mobile devices (and not recording or big screen display) where the providers themselves do not offer something like a web or mobile app(*), and the content owners are paying for the processing and networking costs to make those streams available, so have a strong financial disincentive for offering any higher quality than necessary for those alternative presentation devices (only those who have never purchased terabits per second of network capacity think that that can not end up costing a lot of money; one of the huge cost saving projects Netflix implemented was putting content caches in providers data centers to minimize the long haul network costs (for both themselves, and the providers)).

(*) More and more providers (that you are directly paying for the content) are offering their own branded app solutions (which keep you inside the brand, which is something most providers (at least their marketing people) want), which also includes their own cloud DVR service, which may, eventually, result in the content owners TVE offerings withering away as duplicative and being discontinued (for that matter, more and more of the content owners are offering their own branded streaming service bundle direct to consumers), although that is, of course speculative.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

Back to the topic. For the heck of it, even though I have no impacted devices, I sent an anonymous query to TiVo customer support about the upcoming PowerKEY issues. It took them quite a while to respond, but their response was the following:



> This is a response to your inquiry regarding the upcoming changes for the CableCARDs in the following years. We appreciate you bringing this to our attention. We apologize for the delayed response.
> 
> As of the moment, we won't be able to provide any information regarding the changes that may happen in the next few years. If any of these changes will have an effect on the performance of our TiVo device, we would notify all our customer through email. We do not see any long-term changes on the compatibility of our TiVo DVRs with using cable cards.


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