# How Long Before TiVo Drops Flash?



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

So it appears even Adobe sees the handwriting on the wall when it comes to Flash, with the release of Adobe Edge which is a HTML 5 design tool.


Will TiVo smarten up and move to HTML 5?

Can the Premiere's UI be converted to a HTML 5 based UI?

Or will TiVo and/or the Premiere be one of the last companies/devices to still be using Flash in a few years?
TiVo heal thy self - move off of Flash as soon as possible!!

Thoughts anyone?

Thanks,


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

There's no reason that TiVo should waste any time worrying about it right now. They have a tool set that creates flash and a client that renders flash. None of the reasons that's a bad idea for the web really apply to their own internal tool set.

Maybe if they ever decide to open the platform for end user development it will be worth the effort to make that switch, but right now it's irrelevant. If they can't make their Flash client run fast enough they're not going to make HTML 5 run any faster.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> Will TiVo smarten up and move to HTML 5?
> 
> Can the Premiere's UI be converted to a HTML 5 based UI?
> 
> Or will TiVo and/or the Premiere be one of the last companies/devices to still be using Flash in a few years?


No, No, and Probably.

Unfortunately, the Flash UI works "well enough". Tivo seems to have no development resources (can't even finish the HDUI), so any hope that they would re-implement the entire UI using a different technology is pretty futile.

We might see a new product at some point that's non-Flash, but I just don't see it being backported to the Premiere.


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## Troy J B (Sep 27, 2003)

Fingers crossed the proposed 4-tuner Premiere Elite, will come with a complete HDUI. Preferably without Flash, but complete is more important.


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## rahnbo (Sep 12, 2010)

It took them a year to survey Premiere owners to find out if we want them to finish the HDUI. Based on that alone I see no hope for Tivo ever lifting a finger to do anything they don't have to do. If you own a Premiere you're stuck with what you have. Additionally, whose to say if they did get the wild idea to actually do something they deemed beneficial for us they wouldn't make it 10x worse than it already is?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

The decision to make the HDUI and it's main menus completely dependent on a solid internet connection -- to the point that the whole interface may not even boot properly without one -- was a boneheaded one.

I don't care what programming language the UI is in. It should just work, be fast, and work without any Internet connection if need be.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Fofer said:


> The decision to make the HDUI and it's main menus completely dependent on a solid internet connection -- to the point that the whole interface may not even boot properly without one -- was a boneheaded one.
> 
> I don't care what programming language the UI is in. It should just work, be fast, and work without any Internet connection if need be.


Is that what the problem is?
I just moved my new Premiere to it's home in the family room after initially setting it up in the office. I am waiting on UPS to deliver my wireless bridge and I cannot access any menus, recordings or even change the HD UI back to SD. This is just retarded. So if I have the UI set to HD and temporarily lose my internet connection, is the Tivo neutered until internet returns?


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I think TiVo could set higher priorities. Streaming comes to mind. Getting the current system operationally stable would be urgent, and I don't think flash vs. HTML5 would address some of the behaviors I've experienced.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Fofer said:


> The decision to make the HDUI and it's main menus completely dependent on a solid internet connection -- to the point that the whole interface may not even boot properly without one -- was a boneheaded one.
> 
> I don't care what programming language the UI is in. It should just work, be fast, and work without any Internet connection if need be.


On the other hand none of those problems showed up in testing...

....with a 45mbs Internet link...

... and as many as 5 shows in the My Shows list....

...and 4 Season Passes.

Wait. What?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

nrc said:


> There's no reason that TiVo should waste any time worrying about it right now. They have a tool set that creates flash and a client that renders flash. None of the reasons that's a bad idea for the web really apply to their own internal tool set.
> 
> Maybe if they ever decide to open the platform for end user development it will be worth the effort to make that switch, but right now it's irrelevant. If they can't make their Flash client run fast enough they're not going to make HTML 5 run any faster.


EXACTLY!

In a lot of ways Tivo has moved to other arenas, the stand alone user is no longer a priority, we don't matter to them anymore, and unlike many folks, I'm not in denial about that. We're their POC and test bed before they offer something to the MSOs.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

CoxInPHX said:


> Is that what the problem is?
> I just moved my new Premiere to it's home in the family room after initially setting it up in the office. I am waiting on UPS to deliver my wireless bridge and I cannot access any menus, recordings or even change the HD UI back to SD. This is just retarded. So if I have the UI set to HD and temporarily lose my internet connection, is the Tivo neutered until internet returns?


Thumbs Down, Thumbs Up, pause, pause will switch to SD UI without having to go through menus at which point you don't need internet connection like the stupid HDUI requires.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

moyekj said:


> Thumbs Down, Thumbs Up, pause, pause will switch to SD UI without having to go through menus at which point you don't need internet connection like the stupid HDUI requires.


Many thanks for that Tip.

UPS showed up and my Tivo is now reconnected to the network.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> So it appears even Adobe sees the handwriting on the wall when it comes to Flash, with the release of Adobe Edge which is a HTML 5 design tool.
> 
> 
> Will TiVo smarten up and move to HTML 5?
> ...


I think you are confusing flash for the web with the flash platform TiVo is utilizing. HTML5 would not change anything since you still need a rendering engine. AFAIK there aren't any low power chips than can process HTML5 in the hardware like TiVo does for flash.


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## dkraft (Dec 20, 2004)

I just came back to Tivo from DirecTv after 8 years. I am not impressed with the Tivo UI. I would have thought the Tivo UI would be better.

Now the IPAD and IPhone app is great. If they could just get the UI of the IPAD on the Tivo it would look great..

I read where the Apps where crashing a lot but I have not had any major problems.


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## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

I believe the S4 platform "CPU" has flash accelerators.
I doubt they could effectively move away from the stagecraft platform for the HDUI even if they wanted to.


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## RangerOne (Dec 30, 2006)

And let's not forget that one of the cores on the Premiere is not even active yet. There's still a lot of horsepower they could tap into.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> So it appears even Adobe sees the handwriting on the wall when it comes to Flash, with the release of Adobe Edge which is a HTML 5 design tool.
> 
> 
> Will TiVo smarten up and move to HTML 5?
> ...


Adobe isn't seeing any handwriting on the wall. The rise of Android and other non-Apple technologies especially means that Flash has a strong user base for some time to come.

There's also the h.264 patent issue with free software browsers such as firefox. Google has also put its bets on webm instead of h.264. Chrome now has more users than firefox in some places including an increasing number of Apple Mac users. Chrome is within 6% of taking the lead over firefox worldwide.

As much as some people hate it, Flash is the only standard which is a widespread, uniform standard.

Flash is not going away.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Raj said:


> Adobe isn't seeing any handwriting on the wall. The rise of Android and other non-Apple technologies especially means that Flash has a strong user base for some time to come.


This is largely irrelevant to the TiVo question, but the real question vis-a-vis the wider web market is how long is "some time to come?" Once HTML5 support becomes widespread the only reason to select Flash over HTML5 is the quality of the development stack. Given that, if Adobe themselves are building tools that compose HTML5, that sounds like "handwriting on the wall".

Not sure how the Chrome comments make a case for any kind of long term future for Flash. Chrome is furthest along with HTML5 compliance and they are mainly taking share from IE. In fact, I would argue that Flash's useful lifespan is directly tied to how long IE can maintain market share while dragging their feet on HTML5/CSS3 compliance.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

nrc said:


> This is largely irrelevant to the TiVo question, but the real question vis-a-vis the wider web market is how long is "some time to come?" Once HTML5 support becomes widespread the only reason to select Flash over HTML5 is the quality of the development stack. Given that, if Adobe themselves are building tools that compose HTML5, that sounds like "handwriting on the wall".


No, it's called making money.



> Not sure how the Chrome comments make a case for any kind of long term future for Flash. Chrome is furthest along with HTML5 compliance and they are mainly taking share from IE. In fact, I would argue that Flash's useful lifespan is directly tied to how long IE can maintain market share while dragging their feet on HTML5/CSS3 compliance.


HTML5 as a full replacement for Flash depends partially on the tag. As it is, a huge chunk of the browser marketplace does not support h.264 out of the box, but they support Flash. So the market is largely fractured.

h.264 is patent encumbered and can't really be incorporated in any free software products such as Firefox or Chromium, despite h.264 licensors saying "trust us!" that it will be available for end users to play videos for no charge. That's not the point, the point is free speech, not beer.

Trust me, Google has the power to stop h.264 dead in its tracks. All it has to do is offer WebM for free and kill off h.264 from Android. AFAIK the only reason h.264 is still there is because of hardware acceleration.

On most computers, HTML5 is a bigger CPU hog than Flash. The only place where Flash was more of a CPU hog was on the Mac platform. One has to wonder why.

"The rumors of Flash's death are greatly exaggerated."


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

It figures this thread would turn into a HTML5 vs Flash even though that has little to do with the development environment that TiVo uses on the Premiere.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

Interesting discussion about merits of HTML5 v. Flash, though not all of it very convincing. Some useful isolated facts, so thanks for those. 

First, not sure how relevant the h.264 patent battles are here (note: Apple is a big force supporting H.264; Steve tends to get what he wants.) That is not a pertinent use of HTML5 on the TiVo which has dedicated chips for video decoding. If HTML5 were used, it'd be for menus. And that shouldn't be too daunting a task. 

Second, while Flash is by far better supported than HTML5, this doesn't matter either; for this conversation, all that matters is what the TiVo supports. It seems obvious to conclude that Flash is the clear winner here because of the presumed existence of Flash acceleration hardware on the Premiere, but then again, we all know how sluggish that HD interface is using that acceleration. It doesn't appear to be adequate. 

Third, HTML5 support on TiVo is up to TiVo. I have heard no confirmation that they support any kind of HTML5 rendering. Could it? Don't know, do we?

Fourth, performance. TiVo aside, Apple would have us believe that Flash is resource intensive and HTML5 is vastly superior, so good they find it suitable for handheld mobile devices with small batteries. iOS devices indeed have great stability and battery life, and some of their new HTML5 apps are really amazing---they feel as full functioning as native Objective C-coded apps. Compare that to Android which retains Flash, and find many more complaints about stability, poorer performance and battery life. Adobe is fighting back to keep dominance but the tide is turning. Right or wrong, Steve tends to get what he wants, and this time, he appears to be right.

Fifth, will TiVo move away from Flash? It is hard to say because it is hard to argue they have even fully embraced Flash in the first place. Really they have only built a handful of menus with Flash and left the rest unfinished. Flash development isn't terribly difficult. In fact, this is where Flash is the clear winner. No open source technology is as easy to create apps as what Adobe has created for its Flash/Flex family of technologies. 

It is so easy I think it is safe believe all of the menus have long been designed and coded in TiVo labs, probably a year ago, though not yet released, I am sure they continue to tweak them. The problem is no doubt performance related although there could be a few other complications, perhaps due to some spaghetti code in a core system. Who knows. But I think it has been designed/coded but is sadly still terrible. A great UI with terrible performance is still bad for usability. They may even be waiting for optimization tweaks from Adobe, which has far bigger battles to fight in the web space. And TiVo itself appears to be distracted. End user customers are no longer their priority.

I think they now feel Flash was a terrible mistake for this reference platform, promising fast and easy development turnaround, but alas running too poorly. But they aren't going back. They may switch gears for the next series or whatever they do next with MSOs, or they may go back to Flash once they have hardware up to the task of running Flash. My iPod Touch 2nd gen is old but gets betters cpu scores than my much newer Premiere, and the Premiere's alleged Flash acceleration silicon clearly can't overcome its other deficiencies, such as limited memory and bandwidth, hey whatever.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Well looks like more hand writing about Flash ending (actually flat out statements from adobe):

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/networking/flash-is-dead-long-live-html5/1633?tag=nl.e539​
Will be interesting to see how/if this changes future TiVo development.

Can the Premiere deal with streaming HTML5 content?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> Well looks like more hand writing about Flash ending (actually flat out statements from adobe):
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/networking/flash-is-dead-long-live-html5/1633?tag=nl.e539​
> Will be interesting to see how/if this changes future TiVo development.
> ...


There's no such thing as HTML5 "content". HTML5 doesn't define what video formats are supported. I believe people are too caught up in the Flash vs HTML5. None of that has any affect on TiVo as they aren't using it as a web technology but as a UI engine. At the end of the day, it will never really matter to users what they use to power the UI.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Yeah, I agree with rainwater. What's on the Premiere now and in the future has nothing to do with Adobe's announcements (today or in the future) about Flash.


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

More importantly, Adobe isn't abandoning Flash, they're abandoning it on Mobile Devices. They're clearly still trying to leverage it for PCs and gaming platforms...which probably has more of an effect on TiVo than HTML5 will.

The better question is will TiVo absorb all of Flash Player 12's improvements?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

TiVo ain't changing. It's barely staying alive. Playlists in the YouTube app have been broken for two years. The HDUI is still embarrassingly incomplete (and buggy.)

If anyone expects TiVo to make any Flash adjustments to their core OS now, they are either not paying attention to the writing on the wall, or seriously deluding themselves.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

WizarDru said:


> More importantly, Adobe isn't abandoning Flash, they're abandoning it on Mobile Devices. They're clearly still trying to leverage it for PCs and gaming platforms...which probably has more of an effect on TiVo than HTML5 will.
> 
> The better question is will TiVo absorb all of Flash Player 12's improvements?


They are also abandoning it on TV

http://gigaom.com/video/flash-tv-future/

They are still working on Air it sounds like which TiVo has said they are working on.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/adobe-advances-entertainment-apps-for-tvs-2011-10-03


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Question how many here (at any point in time) actually thought building the new interface on top of Flash was a good idea?

For the record I didn't. Building your home on someone else's trailer is never a good idea. TiVo did it because they were lazy or incompetent guessing it is a little of both.

I am still happy with my buggy TiVo HDs. When they die I am not sure what I'll do, but I am pretty sure it won't be TiVo anymore.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Happy with my TiVo S3's and HDXL and NOT buggy at all. We may get a (buggy) Premier only because of the Antenna promotional monthly $9.99 rate.


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> They are also abandoning it on TV


Yeah, forget what I said. Tivo's got themselves a serious problem. I wonder why Adobe even made a pretense of maintaining Flash. It's just gone to something a handful of people _might_ write some browser games in.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

WizarDru said:


> Yeah, forget what I said. Tivo's got themselves a serious problem. I wonder why Adobe even made a pretense of maintaining Flash. It's just gone to something a handful of people _might_ write some browser games in.


Again, that has nothing to do with TiVo. They are not using the Flash Porting Kit which is being expired.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

http://www.techofthehub.com/2011/11/adobe-flash-and-connected-devices.html

And what does the announcement mean for TiVo? The Premiere platform has an HD user interface that is built in Flash (albeit not complete yet). However, it's not what Adobe is removing support for. TiVo PR provided the following comment when asked about the impact of the Adobe announcement:

"Adobes recent announcement is focused on Flash as a browser plug-in for mobile devices. TiVo Premiere utilizes Adobe AIR to deliver Flash based apps to connected TVs and is not affected by the news. After consulting with Adobe, we anticipate no change to our current plans in our use of Adobe products within TiVo products. [TiVo also then references the Adobe clarification]"

This statement gives credence to our theory that the new TiVo Netflix app will be Flash-based. So, TiVo fans don't fret. The Adobe announcement does not mean that TiVo (or Google TV) has hit an architectural dead-end. In fact, it sounds like Adobe is doubling down on AIR (as is TiVo).


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

sbiller said:


> This statement gives credence to our theory that the new TiVo Netflix app will be Flash-based. So, TiVo fans don't fret. The Adobe announcement does not mean that TiVo (or Google TV) has hit an architectural dead-end. In fact, it sounds like Adobe is doubling down on AIR (as is TiVo).


Actually, I'd say it confirms TiVo is all-in on what was an obviously dead-end technology even before Adobe admitted it.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

tomhorsley said:


> Actually, I'd say it confirms TiVo is all-in on what was an obviously dead-end technology even before Adobe admitted it.


What was their alternative to Adobe?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

tomhorsley said:


> Actually, I'd say it confirms TiVo is all-in on what was an obviously dead-end technology even before Adobe admitted it.


AIR is a dead-end technology?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

sbiller said:


> What was their alternative to Adobe?


Are you suggesting that _only Adobe_ presented viable options upon which TiVo could have built their "next generation" UI?


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Fofer said:


> Are you suggesting that _only Adobe_ presented viable options upon which TiVo could have built their "next generation" UI?


Yes. Moving to an alternate user interface technology would have required a significantly more advanced hardware platform.

Flash is probably one of two technologies currently embraced by the content providers. The other being Microsoft Silverlight.

http://www.adobe.com/products/flashaccess/


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## Scyber (Apr 25, 2002)

sbiller said:


> Flash is probably one of two technologies currently embraced by the content providers. The other being Microsoft Silverlight.[/URL]


That is really only true for "open" systems such as personal computers or mobile platforms. Content providers have embraced numerous methods of content delivery for "closed" platforms. Just look at all of the OTT boxes on the market (like roku), very few of them run flash or silverlight, yet many of them have the content providers blessing.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Scyber said:


> That is really only true for "open" systems such as personal computers or mobile platforms. Content providers have embraced numerous methods of content delivery for "closed" platforms. Just look at all of the OTT boxes on the market (like roku), very few of them run flash or silverlight, yet many of them have the content providers blessing.


You are correct. A number of OTT devices use a proprietary closed platform. In my view the selection of Adobe Air going forward is more positive than negative for TiVo. It will be easier for developers to create a TiVo Adobe Air application than a proprietary Roku or Bokee app. It comes down to where do the developers feel they will get the most bang for the buck. It will be easier for content providers or TiVo to deploy apps that are written around an environment like Adobe Air.

https://blogs.adobe.com/flashplayer/2011/11/focusing.html


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

sbiller said:


> This statement gives credence to our theory that the new TiVo Netflix app will be Flash-based. So, TiVo fans don't fret. The Adobe announcement does not mean that TiVo (or Google TV) has hit an architectural dead-end. In fact, it sounds like Adobe is doubling down on AIR (as is TiVo).


Has there actually been some discussion that a new Netflix app is under development for TiVo?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Yeah there's been discussion about that, and discussion about a new YouTube app.

For years now, it seems.

And also discussion about monkeys flying out of my butt, basically.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

WizarDru said:


> Has there actually been some discussion that a new Netflix app is under development for TiVo?


There is already a new Netflix app on the Insignia TV with TiVo design. It looks like your typical modern Netflix app with queue management, etc. There is also a blogger (tech of the hub) that claims a 1080p Netflix app is in the queue here --> http://www.techofthehub.com/2011/10/1080p-netflix-coming-to-tivo.html


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

WizarDru said:


> Has there actually been some discussion that a new Netflix app is under development for TiVo?


Here's what the Netflix and YouTube apps look like on the Best Buy TiVo TV, Presumably similar is under development for Premiere owners. But who knows when we'll see it.


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## RealityCheck (Feb 15, 2007)

sbiller said:


> What was their alternative to Adobe?


I can think of 2 alternatives right off the bat.

1. HTML5/CSS3 Hybrid Solution

HTML5/CSS3 has been a possibility since the iPhone dropped in 2007. Before Apple opened Cocoa Touch to third party developers, it allowed HTML5 apps to be deployed in the browser. With iPad, it became back-end to almost every connected app (WebKit/WebCore does a lot of work behind the scenes for Cocoa Touch).

TiVo could have utilized HTML5 without the hardware required for Flash. It also could have deployed WebKit on the Series3 to add features to loyal paying customers.

Windows 8 will utilize HTML5/CSS3 for all "Metro" based UI development.

2. GNUStep

During the early 1990s, a small struggling company posted a specification for an abstracted Object Oriented Framework. NeXT Computer published the OpenStep specification and ported the framework to Sun Solaris. Developers wishing to find an easier path to "port" the existing NeXT apps engineered GNUStep. OpenStep is the basis of what is commonly referred today as Apple's Cocoa API.

GNUStep is a community implementation of the OpenStep Specification. It's been available for years. GNUStep publishes the AppKit, Developer Tools, and Display Ghostscript engines. GNUStep also sits on top of a Linux OS just like TiVo. GNUStep also has tools that can assist in porting Cocoa and Cocoa Touch based apps over.

GNUStep would give TiVo a robust API platform to build and deploy apps quickly. Being Open Source, most of the engineering has been accomplished, sans optimiztion for TiVo Hardware. It would allow developers to "port" iPad Apps to TiVo, and sell them in an "App Store". Heck, TiVo could leverage their own iPad App for the UI platform. I can't fathom for the life of me why nobody considers GNUStep.

*Sony had plans to create a GNUStep based OS (SNAP - Sony Network Application Platform), but abandoned it.


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## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

If you look at the iPad, you can see a TiVo interface not written in Flash. I think whatever updates TiVo had to do to get the iPad/iPhone app working finally completely decoupled the UI from the low level code. The season pass manager on the iPad app is in the HDUI (at least the iPad equivalent of the HDUI), so I tend to think that TiVo is in a position now to roll forward with any kind of UI they want.

What I really want is transparent TiVo. I want streaming between boxes, a unified now playing list, and recording on whatever tuner is available in the house. I add another Tivo and I magically get two more tuners to my collection of available recording slots.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

RealityCheck said:


> I can think of 2 alternatives right off the bat.
> 
> 1. HTML5/CSS3 Hybrid Solution


Let me know what chip (SoC) is designed to process HTML5/CSS3 or did you mean TiVo should have put beefier hardware in the Premiere and raise the price a few hundred dollars?


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

RealityCheck said:


> 1. HTML5/CSS3 Hybrid Solution


Java runs on all kinds of really pitiful hardware and certainly seems to work better than the flash nonsense (at least a java UI can scroll a list of items without having to redraw the whole thing from scratch .


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

davezatz said:


> Here's what the Netflix and YouTube apps look like on the Best Buy TiVo TV, Presumably similar is under development for Premiere owners. But who knows when we'll see it.


Thanks for that; I recognized a familiar name and avatar at 4:33 

I'd be curious for followup on that YouTube app. Specifically, whether or not we can log in and view our playlists. This makes it easy to go from websurfing, to watching a video on the big screen, simply by adding a video we want to watch into a playlist.

I ask because the YouTube app we have now has been broken in this regard for over two years and TiVo seems disinterested/powerless to fix it. You can login, but playlists just don't work. It's maddening. So I'm hopeful that we'll get this new YouTube app sometime soon, and that it actually works.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

tomhorsley said:


> Java runs on all kinds of really pitiful hardware and certainly seems to work better than the flash nonsense (at least a java UI can scroll a list of items without having to redraw the whole thing from scratch .


Java runs well on x86 architecture but TiVo runs very specialized hardware with it's SoC architecture. You would have the same issue with Java that you have with flash in it all comes down to the support the hardware manufacturer of the chip provides.


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## RealityCheck (Feb 15, 2007)

rainwater said:


> Let me know what chip (SoC) is designed to process HTML5/CSS3 or did you mean TiVo should have put beefier hardware in the Premiere and raise the price a few hundred dollars?


I don't think using an ARM based hardware solution would raise the cost of a TiVo DVR by several hundred dollars. An HP TouchPad has exponentially beefier hardware and an expensive IPS screen. It's build of materials clocks in at $306 according to iSuppli for the 16GB model. $155.5 of that cost alone is for the display, touchscreen, and NAND (all unnecessary for TiVo). You can also shave off another $19.40 for the unnecessary battery and $5 for the gyroscope and camera. The Qualcomm Snapdragon dual-core processor with a pretty good 3D on-die GPU is $20. Really, the $20 Snapdragon is the only part TiVo needs here.

The real cost to TiVo is engineering. TiVo would have to port their antiquated code base to a new architecture. Judging the code from an end user standpoint, that might be a herculean feat with how bugs remain untouched for years. They also need to re-optimize the code. The Linux OS core would be trivial to port, but the TiVo app probably would benefit from a complete re-write.

Buying the co-processors to handle the video codecs would be the other issue. The Broadcom*BCM7413 has them on die. They may likely be able to utilize the existing chipsets for tuning and decryption.

</digression>

TiVo's UI on iPad is most likely using an HTML5 core wrapped in Objective C. I can't say for sure without seeing a code sample running in memory (easy to do in Mac OS X BTW). If it's written in Objective C or HTML5, porting it to GNUStep is a piece of cake. All the underlying service code (Season Pass Manager etc.) can either be wrapped in Objective C or re-written. Most importantly,

GNUStep has potential to bring thousands of iPad apps to a TiVo App Store. Flash is a dying beast. Adobe knows this, and AIR is their last gasp for leveraging it. I think we'll see rapid decline in Flash/Flex/Air development in a few years.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

RealityCheck said:


> I don't think using an ARM based hardware solution would raise the cost of a TiVo DVR by several hundred dollars.


There's an ARM based solution that handles multiple format video decoding, video scaling, 6 streams, etc, all on the chip? I have never seen one.


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

davezatz said:


> Here's what the Netflix and YouTube apps look like on the Best Buy TiVo TV, Presumably similar is under development for Premiere owners. But who knows when we'll see it.


Thanks, Dave. Well, here's hoping! The Netflix interface there looks exactly like the PS3 and iPad interface (and for the most part the Xbox-360 i/f). Would love to see an improved Youtube interface as well, particularly with better support of channels and subscriptions.

Your post today about the Virgin TiVos getting a refresh gives me hope that eventually this will filter to the US premieres, as well.


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## RealityCheck (Feb 15, 2007)

rainwater said:


> There's an ARM based solution that handles multiple format video decoding, video scaling, 6 streams, etc, all on the chip? I have never seen one.


ARM chips are powerful enough to decode the 1 actual video stream displayed by TiVo in software. In fact, ARM chips can decode multiple video streams up to 1080p with more robust settings offered than the current Broadcom SoC. The decryption/tuning of the 6 streams allowed by MCards are conducted by a separate ASIC (off die). Video scaling can be handled by the on-die GPU on any modern ARM processor.

Of course, the question remains does TiVo have the competency to port FFMPEG and the remaining codebase. TiVo also wouldn't be able to leverage Broadcom's software stack/drivers and engineering, as well as in-house legacy code to build on. TiVo may actually have to spend money out of pocket to accomplish a major project like this. Comcast paid for the now defunct quasi-OCAP stack, and Virgin paid for their Cisco hardware port. TiVo seems quite content to rest on their laurels, and I guess I can't blame them. There's no competitors in their field. Everyone else who tried to failed.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

solutionsetc said:


> Question how many here (at any point in time) actually thought building the new interface on top of Flash was a good idea?
> 
> For the record I didn't. Building your home on someone else's trailer is never a good idea. TiVo did it because they were lazy or incompetent guessing it is a little of both.
> 
> I am still happy with my buggy TiVo HDs. When they die I am not sure what I'll do, but I am pretty sure it won't be TiVo anymore.


Do you ever get the feeling that somewhere between the S3 models and the S4 TiVo dumped all of their original programmers?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

unitron said:


> Do you ever get the feeling that somewhere between the S3 models and the S4 TiVo dumped all of their original programmers?


Yes, absolutely. Or they all quite and went off to greener pastures.

Everything "new" feels tacked on. There's no fluidity to the interface, at all. The menus aren't intuitive, considering any new capabilities and content they're meant to aggregate. Like video podcasts... when I add one, shouldn't it appear in my SP Manager?

The "apps" are frozen in time, with the same bugs that were there when they first arrived. Everything's just cobbled together, with no elegance or uniformity.

The programmers have left the building. Such a shame, too. If TiVo were to integrate something like Roku, rolled together with an interface that made sense, it would be a drool-worthy set-top box. Instead it languishes today as this strange relic from days gone by. An interesting study in lost opportunity. A device that one day will break, with no one minding the store to keep it alive and kicking.

And yet monthly I get these inane "TiVo Advisor Surveys" that amount to absolutely nothing.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

unitron said:


> Do you ever get the feeling that somewhere between the S3 models and the S4 TiVo dumped all of their original programmers?


I am guessing it was earlier than that. Bitter disappointment to buy a "TiVo HD" and see it supplied with an "SD" interface. Not much difference from the series 2.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

My take is they changed from one outsourced firm to another between the S3 and S4. They can't even manage their outsourcing contracts well.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I will give them credit for one thing... whoever they outsourced the _iPad app_ to, did a very good job. They should have that outsourced company take over the job of updating/completing TiVo's main UI as well.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Fofer said:


> I will give them credit for one thing... whoever they outsourced the _iPad app_ to, did a very good job. They should have that outsourced company take over the job of updating/completing TiVo's main UI as well.


Well then first let them fix TiVo Desktop.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I'd venture to suggest that the main TiVo UI is more important and needs more attention than TiVo Desktop.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Fofer said:


> I'd venture to suggest that the main TiVo UI is more important and needs more attention than TiVo Desktop.


In my mind, TTGO and BTT are the only things truly distinguishing TiVo from the cable and sat offerings. For me, it is really the only thing that keeps me using a TiVo. Actually, I use third party alternatives to it because TiVo Desktop is such a lame attempt.

With ever increasing no copy flags appearing on cable networks, TiVo needs to come up with an elegant solution address this.

Prediction: They won't. And when these features no longer distinguish TiVo from the rest of the pack, I (and a lot of others) will join the current exodus.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Fofer said:


> I'd venture to suggest that the main TiVo UI is more important and needs more attention than TiVo Desktop.


For those without an S4, and no plans to get one, considering all the horror stories?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I'd say the "horror stories" are a bit overblown. It's certainly not living up to its potential, but I do like my TiVo Premiere (using the SDUI) quite a bit better than the Series 3 TiVo it replaced.


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

Fofer said:


> I'd venture to suggest that the main TiVo UI is more important and needs more attention than TiVo Desktop.


I'd second that emotion. I own a TiVo Desktop license, but it's a niche product. It's hamstrung by legal requirements that means it will never be able to do things that non-TiVo projects will. The main TiVo UI is one of the things that sets it apart from the Cable company DVRs and one reason that TiVo has survived. Going over to my in-laws to use the TiVo is PAINFUL.

I'd love TD to be able to transfer shows to my iPad and the like, but it's never going to be able to do that. Not in a world with HBOGo and each major network with its own streaming solution AND a world in which Netflix, Hulu and Vudu exists.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

WizarDru said:


> It's hamstrung by legal requirements


Which legal requirements?



> I'd love TD to be able to transfer shows to my iPad and the like, but it's never going to be able to do that. Not in a world with HBOGo and each major network with its own streaming solution AND a world in which Netflix, Hulu and Vudu exists.


Yet it's the same world that Slingbox exists in...

Of course, I do agree with your bottom line. TiVo doesn't want to ruffle any feathers amongst the content industry and their MSO partners - except perhaps the ones they're litigating against.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Fofer said:


> I'd venture to suggest that the main TiVo UI is more important and needs more attention than TiVo Desktop.


I believe like the iPad app TiVo Desktop is outsourced.

Personally I would love to see a TiVo Desktop that mirrors the iPad app UI while incorporating all the extra features of the iPad app combined with KMTTG and TiVo.com. Anything I can do on TiVo.com related to my TiVo I should be able to do on a desktop application from TiVo.

It also seems like they could then possibly cache some of the data the HDUI is requesting from the TiVo servers.


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

davezatz said:


> Which legal requirements?


By that I mean requirements from the legal department, as you sussed. Stuff like this, from the TiVo desktop FAQ:

"_ TiVo has taken deliberate steps to protect the content that originates on our digital video recorder and is transferred to the PC via our TiVoToGo feature. TiVo Inc. views creating tools to subvert that protection as a violation of the TiVo license agreement and strongly discourages such activity. Distribution and/or use of such tools to transfer copyrighted works outside of your home may constitute an infringement of the rights of copyright holders and/or a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) and could result in legal action. TiVo reserves the right to terminate the TiVo service accounts of users who transfer or distribute content in violation of the TiVo Service Agreement. _"

Slingbox doesn't actually serve content, right? It just allows you to remote control devices that do, instead. That's the critical difference. It's not technically serving anything.

It just makes me sad that in a week, my Xbox-360 will do a better job of serving digital content from FIOS, HBO, Youtube, facebook and Netflix than my TiVo, which had several of them years earlier but has never moved forward with them.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

WizarDru said:


> Slingbox doesn't actually serve content, right? It just allows you to remote control devices that do, instead. That's the critical difference. It's not technically serving anything.


It's something of a grey area... because it's unlicensed retransmission or broadcast of content. But theoretically only for personal use. Some folks (like HBO) did make noise, but I think you're right that by not retaining the video data as a static file makes it less offensive in some way. If TiVo and TiVoToGo were more popular I imagine TiVo, Inc would have more problems and obviously TiVo tries to avoid controversy via encryption and using low resolutions.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

davezatz said:


> It's something of a grey area... because it's unlicensed retransmission or broadcast of content. But theoretically only for personal use. Some folks (like HBO) did make noise, but I think you're right that by not retaining the video data as a static file makes it less offensive in some way. If TiVo and TiVoToGo were more popular I imagine TiVo, Inc would have more problems and obviously TiVo tries to avoid controversy via encryption and using low resolutions.


Well the file transferred over from the TiVo is basically the original recording resolution wrapped in encryption that is easily stripped. Using TiVo Desktop to convert the video to a portable format is what lowers the resolution (dramatically I might add).

You can use something like VideoRedo (or free programs) to convert the TiVo files to iPad format and maintain a 720p resolution, as opposed to TiVo Desktop's 320p resolution. The main problem is with these methods is that it's time consuming. Re-encoding HD video takes a considerable amount of time.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

morac said:


> Well the file transferred over from the TiVo is basically the original recording resolution wrapped in encryption that is easily stripped.


Right, we know how to bypass all of that. But using the official TiVo Desktop method, the video files are low res and encrypted - which are TiVo's methods to limit strife and drama with the content industry. As I previously mentioned, I think they're also partially insulated given usage numbers.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I know this thread went away from Flash but I thought this was an interesting article on what is going on with HTML5 versus Flash in the mobile market.

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Apple-Amazon-Push-HTML5-to-the-Fore-as-Adobe-Flash-Falls-214208/?kc=EWKNLEDP01032012A​
I think it is likely that whenever TiVo releases a "Series 5" it will likely move from Flash to HTML5.

Thanks,


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> I know this thread went away from Flash but I thought this was an interesting article on what is going on with HTML5 versus Flash in the mobile market.
> 
> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Apple-Amazon-Push-HTML5-to-the-Fore-as-Adobe-Flash-Falls-214208/?kc=EWKNLEDP01032012A​
> Thanks,


That's no surprise. None of them want to pay licensing fees just like Google wants to phase out h.264 in favor of their own royalty free WebM and Amazon used HTML5 to skirt around Apple's 30% cut of kindle in app purchase. Oh, the iRony.


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## Krandor (Jun 10, 2004)

WizarDru said:


> More importantly, Adobe isn't abandoning Flash, they're abandoning it on Mobile Devices. They're clearly still trying to leverage it for PCs and gaming platforms...which probably has more of an effect on TiVo than HTML5 will.
> 
> The better question is will TiVo absorb all of Flash Player 12's improvements?


True but as more and more people move to using tablets and phones, designing pages in a format that isn't going to be viewable on mobile devices isn't something developers will want to do so web pages with things like videos encoded in flash will likely change to something more mobile friendly.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

atmuscarella said:


> I think it is likely that whenever TiVo releases a "Series 5" it will likely move from Flash to HTML5.


I think you're giving TiVo far too much credit.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Fofer said:


> I think you're giving TiVo far too much credit.


 The flash vs. html 5 wars are going to be with us for sometime. Tivo would be wise not to move too quickly.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

tenthplanet said:


> The flash vs. html 5 wars are going to be with us for sometime. Tivo would be wise not to move too quickly.


TiVo? Move quickly? Ha! Good one. 

Not to mention, I think it's pretty obvious there's no "flash vs. HTML 5 war" going on anymore. Flash has raised their white flag of surrender.


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## m42 (Jan 31, 2012)

Fofer said:


> TiVo? Move quickly? Ha! Good one.
> Not to mention, I think it's pretty obvious there's no "flash vs. HTML 5 war" going on anymore. Flash has raised their white flag of surrender.


Really? Why would you want to limit your interface to HTML5 and Javascript for a non-web platform?

It makes sense on the web because plain text source code is more searchable, but there are so many downsides to using HTML5/Javascript instead of Flash.

Javascript and AS3 are both JIT'd. But AS3 is statically typed, and that gives it the potential to run far more efficiently. As is, Javascript can't compete.

The Flash platform also supports additional languages such as Haxe and C/C++. With the latest tech, C++ compiles to AVM2 byte code, taking full advantage of special memory opcodes and runs many times faster yet.

Flash supports Shader Model 3 GPUs with low level control over the hardware via vertex and fragment shaders. If older hardware doesn't support it, it falls back to a very fast software renderer. SM3 is roughly what you see on the XBox 360.

So let's take a look at games because games are more demanding and require more efficiency than anything else.

So how about this:

Epic Games Announces Unreal Engine 3 Support for Adobe Flash Player
w w w . u n r e a l e n g i n e . c o m /news/epic_games_announces_unreal_engine_3_support_for_adobe_flash_player

And this:

Unity 3.5 supports Flash as a build target
u n i t y 3 d . c o m /unity/publishing/flash

And this:

Crytek is investigating Flash for CryEngine
w w w . j o y s t i q . c o m /2011/10/06/hold-on-ue3-crytek-is-investigating-flash-for-cryengine-cr

Some might point to WebGL as a solution, but what's going to power the game? Javascript??

Even if you only want to develop casual games or lightweight apps, do you think Microsoft is going to jump on board with WebGL? Love 'em or hate 'em, without Microsoft, there's no way WebGL can become a useful standard.

Bottom line - Javascript/HTML5 solutions work fine for lightweight apps, but require far more CPU power than Flash based solutions for anything remotely complex.

Oh, and if you're not writing games, why does this matter? Simply because it's always nicer to base your product on something that gives you more options and flexibility when you need it.

If Adobe did decide to kill Flash and everyone moved to HTML5, it might not put a dent in simple UIs, but it'd throw web based games into the dark ages.

The point in keeping a technology like Flash around is that it takes forever for the powers that be to standardize new tech for the web, but given that new tech constantly appears and always will, a platform like Flash can deliver that tech years before you'd otherwise have access to it in a cross platform environment.

I'd love to see an open cross platform solution succeed. But currently, we aren't anywhere close for demanding apps.


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## ShinySteelRobot (Apr 2, 2010)

With Android, Google had the right idea with a streamlined version of Linux (sort of like what TiVo already uses) paired with the Dalvik Java virtual machine. It's an excellent solution that provides high performance on "slow" systems (such as mobile and tablet systems).

Flash/ActionScript is nice, and quite good for something originally designed to animate web pages back in the day, but the Java language is far more powerful and flexible in just about every way.

It's utterly baffling that TiVo went with a highly proprietary solution like Flash rather than Java.

If TiVo had used Java and its advanced tools then TiVo would have had their second CPU core fully enabled a year ago rather than just this month, and they wouldn't be facing Adobe's continual retrenchment of their Flash solutions across mobile, TV, etc.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ShinySteelRobot said:


> It's utterly baffling that TiVo went with a highly proprietary solution like Flash rather than Java.


Not really. Java is a dead language for creating user interfaces. TiVo isn't using Flash to power the entire operating system but only the UI. It makes sense to use something that is easy to build interfaces for.


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## ShinySteelRobot (Apr 2, 2010)

rainwater said:


> Not really. Java is a dead language for creating user interfaces.


The 32 million Android phones out there (which all run Java and which all have UIs) are in BIG trouble then.


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## ShinySteelRobot (Apr 2, 2010)

rainwater said:


> TiVo isn't using Flash to power the entire operating system but only the UI.


Right, my point was that both Android phones and TiVos (both of which have "slow-ish" CPUs) run Linux, but Google went with Java for the UI layer, whereas TiVo bet on a different horse (Flash).


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

ShinySteelRobot said:


> Right, my point was that both Android phones and TiVos (both of which have "slow-ish" CPUs) run Linux, but Google went with Java for the UI layer, whereas TiVo bet on a different horse (Flash).


Actually the CPU on most modern cell phones (600 MHz to 1 Ghz) is much faster than the CPU on the Premiere (400 MHz). Also phones barely have any "disk" activity if at all.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ShinySteelRobot said:


> Right, my point was that both Android phones and TiVos (both of which have "slow-ish" CPUs) run Linux, but Google went with Java for the UI layer, whereas TiVo bet on a different horse (Flash).


Android has never been praised by their decision to go with Java. That is hardly a ringing endorsement. It is also a much different case because TiVo's UI doesn't necessarily need to be very flexible since it is much more limited in scope. And afaik, the chips TiVo uses from broadcom don't support native java.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ShinySteelRobot said:


> The 32 million Android phones out there (which all run Java and which all have UIs) are in BIG trouble then.


And show me the tools for Android that make it easy to build UIs? Adobe has professional tools that make building UIs for flash much easier than trying to code for Android.


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## ShinySteelRobot (Apr 2, 2010)

morac said:


> Actually the CPU on most modern cell phones (600 MHz to 1 Ghz) is much faster than the CPU on the Premiere (400 MHz). Also phones barely have any "disk" activity if at all.


Yep, that's true. My point was that the CPUs in both the TiVo and mobile phones are "slow-ish", since a 400MHz TiVo and a 800 MHz mobile phone (like iPhone 4) are both significantly slower than my 3.5 GHz desktop computer. Even a very slow computer from a store these days is going to have > 2 GHz. Relatively speaking both TiVo and mobile phones have slow CPUs.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

ShinySteelRobot said:


> Yep, that's true. My point was that the CPUs in both the TiVo and mobile phones are "slow-ish", since a 400MHz TiVo and a 800 MHz mobile phone (like iPhone 4) are both significantly slower than my 3.5 GHz desktop computer. Even a very slow computer from a store these days is going to have > 2 GHz. Relatively speaking both TiVo and mobile phones have slow CPUs.


My iPhone 4S has a dual-core 1 GHz (underclocked to 800 MHz). I used to have a iPhone 3GS which has a 620 MHz (underclocked to 412 MHz). Comparing the speeds between the two is like night and day. The 3GS felt bogged down frequently, which I don't get on the 4S, though that could have something to do with the amount of RAM (128 MB vs 512 MB).

The TiVo Premiere has the about the same CPU speed as an iPhone 3GS (albiet a dual core processor) with 512 MB of RAM. So speed wise it would probably be slightly faster than an iPhone 3GS, but about half as slow as an iPhone 4(/4S). That's assuming the Premiere was a phone, which it's not.


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## ShinySteelRobot (Apr 2, 2010)

rainwater said:


> Android has never been praised by their decision to go with Java. That is hardly a ringing endorsement.


Actually a lot of developers where ecstatic about Google's decision to go with Java for Android. That meant that they could use the skills they already had (i.e., Java development). After all, Java is the most popular programming language in the world.

Google employs a huge group of the smartest engineers on Earth with access to some of the highest technology in the world. IMHO, I don't think they'd bet the farm for their mobile platform on Java+Linux if they hadn't given it careful consideration.

Furthermore, the incredible adoption rate of Android phones (and its Java infrastructure) indicates that consumers have voted in favor of Android with their wallets.

In all, that's 32 million ringing endorsements. 
(And Android phones literally do "ring".  )



rainwater said:


> It is also a much different case because TiVo's UI doesn't necessarily need to be very flexible since it is much more limited in scope.


If Flash is so flexible, why are half the menu screens on my TiVo still standard definition menus instead of Flash-based high def menus? 

I kid, I kid. But honestly I'd say that Flash and Java are about equally flexible when it comes to creating UIs. The reason I know this is because I wrote Flash/ActionScript UIs professionally at IBM for 2 years and Java based UIs for 1 year. Both are pretty flexible, both have their pros and cons. Also one of my best friends is an Android developer, so I hear in-depths stories about Java-based UI development on Android from him, like every day at lunch. 



rainwater said:


> And afaik, the chips TiVo uses from broadcom don't support native java.


AFAIK there are no chips that support "native Java". Java runs on a virtual machine which has a "compatibility layer" on top of the underlying OS (in TiVo and Android's case that's Linux). To run Java on any hardware and OS, all you have to do is port Java's compatibility layer to run on top of that OS. Java has been running on Linux for over a decade so it's not an issue.

To put it another way--and this is a bit of a simplification but conveys the gist of it--it goes like this: 
 Build Broadcom chip based TiVo 
 Port Linux OS to run on top of Broadcom chips (easy since Linux is designed to be portable)
 Port Java VM to run on top of Linux OS (actually that's already done)



rainwater said:


> And show me the tools for Android that make it easy to build UIs? Adobe has professional tools that make building UIs for flash much easier than trying to code for Android.


Laying out your UI in Android is very similar to what you'd do with Flash/Flex/ActionScript, i.e., it's based on XML whereas Flash/Flex use MXML. Both have tools that allow you to preview and tweak your UI. AFAICT, Android improves on this by not embedding lots of source code directly in the same XML file, as is common with Adobe's approach.

Believe me, Google wants Android to crush its competition, and therefore has gone the extra mile to provide good development tools, and that includes UI layout techniques.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ShinySteelRobot said:


> Actually a lot of developers where ecstatic about Google's decision to go with Java for Android. That meant that they could use the skills they already had (i.e., Java development). After all, Java is the most popular programming language in the world.
> 
> Google employs a huge group of the smartest engineers on Earth with access to some of the highest technology in the world. IMHO, I don't think they'd bet the farm for their mobile platform on Java+Linux if they hadn't given it careful consideration.
> 
> ...


You are assuming TiVo has 20 Java developers on staff. In fact, very little of the TiVo OS uses Java. Why would they spend resources trying to convert to a platform they don't understand? Broadcom's chip performs well for what they need it to do. Flash was definitively the easier choice for them at the time.


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## ShinySteelRobot (Apr 2, 2010)

rainwater said:


> You are assuming TiVo has 20 Java developers on staff. In fact, very little of the TiVo OS uses Java.


No argument there. But about 3 or 4 years ago (I'm estimating) the development team at TiVo had to make a decision whether to build their new HD menu system on Flash, Java, or other UI framework. TiVo bet on Flash, which, while not dead yet, is a platform that's beginning to sputter.

I'm simply saying that TiVo may have bet on the wrong horse.



rainwater said:


> Why would they spend resources trying to convert to a platform they don't understand?


Well, my guess is that 4 years ago when they chose to go with Flash vs Java vs "other" that they maybe had a guy or two on staff who already knew Flash, so they went in that direction.

BTW I'm not advocating TiVo alter course right now, but they should probably plan for a Flash-free future within the next 2-3 years, IMHO.



rainwater said:


> Flash was definitively the easier choice for them at the time.


Ya, probably so. I just think they weren't considering Flash's long-term prospects vs competitive platforms.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

TiVo looking for a Sr. Software Engineer with in-depth knowledge of Haxe, NME, OpenFL and Flash. Hmm...

http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qMW9Vfww&page=Job%20Description&j=olLFXfws


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

sbiller said:


> TiVo looking for a Sr. Software Engineer with in-depth knowledge of Haxe, NME, OpenFL and Flash. Hmm...


_*Tivo* is writing software?_


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