# Bolt's commercial skip function (Late to this forum)



## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

I'm curious as to how the Bolt skip function works. Does it skip 30 seconds at a time or entire breaks? And how does it distinguish among the different type of breaks?

Can it tell a *mid break from a regular two (or more) minute break?




*Mid break - A set of network commercials and promos followed by a local set of spots, and a station ID.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

It skips all breaks in the show and it does it using markers placed there by humans hired by tivo to watch and mark the programs.


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

Wow, that must be a laborious process. Do they watch all of the shows before they air to put the markers on the shows?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

No. They watch them as they're broadcast. That's why there is some latency between broadcast and when the Commercial Skip function becomes available.


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

bicker said:


> No. They watch them as they're broadcast. That's why there is some latency between broadcast and when the Commercial Skip function becomes available.


Ah, I see. But that still must take a lot of people, depending on how many shows are marked.

Which brings me to another question. What if there are shows that are not marked, say, something on a lesser viewed cable channel. How does the Bolt treat those breaks?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

RGM1138 said:


> Ah, I see. But that still must take a lot of people, depending on how many shows are marked.


Theoretically they could do it with twenty people. (They'd have to be pretty dedicated people, though.)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

RGM1138 said:


> Which brings me to another question. What if there are shows that are not marked, say, something on a lesser viewed cable channel. How does the Bolt treat those breaks?


They only mark the shows on the 20 most popular networks and only for shows aired between 4pm and midnight. Everything else you have to FF through just like before.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> They only mark the shows on the 20 most popular networks and only for shows aired between 4pm and midnight. Everything else you have to FF through just like before.


Actually 7PM to midnight on the East Coast. 4PM comes from the West Coast time.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> Actually 7PM to midnight on the East Coast. 4PM comes from the West Coast time.


It says 4pm and midnight on their website. I think we discussed this before. The reason you don't see any SkipMode enabled content recorded before 7pm is mostly because they exclude local broadcast content, and 99% of the stuff on between 4-7pm is locally broadcast and not part of the national broadcast. (I think Judge Judy was the only exception I could find) But it should work for the cable channels between 4-7pm. Although mine is OTA only, so I can't verify that.


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

Okay, just so I'm sure that I understand the process - you would need to force a connection to Tivo at some point so it downloads the markers?

How soon are they ready after a broadcast?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

No, they're automatic and download on their own shortly after the show ends.

P.S. - RGM1138, I see you're from Gulfport, MS. I used to be stationed at Keesler AFB in Biloxi near there a couple different times for training. Fun place!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Everything else you have to FF through just like before.


Or 30 second skip.. 
public service message:

type SELECT PLAY SELECT 3 0 SELECT
and now your -> button will be a 30 second skip button.

So you can go WHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAM (and then usually one/a couple of 8 second skip backs), and be through the commercial break WAY faster than any FFer. (Though of course not as fast as one that properly had the skip function enabled.)


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

HarperVision said:


> No, they're automatic and download on their own shortly after the show ends.
> 
> P.S. - RGM1138, I see you're from Gulfport, MS. I used to be stationed at Keesler AFB in Biloxi near there a couple different times for training. Fun place!


Ah, thanks.

And, cool! Glad you enjoyed your time down here.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> Actually 7PM to midnight on the East Coast. 4PM comes from the West Coast time.


I'm getting Commercial skip on the Food Network all hours of the day, 6:30 AM 11 AM 4pm and none of these shows air during prime time, and most are repeats from over a year ago? Could my guys just really like their job and are doing it all the time?


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## Doug95630 (Oct 15, 2015)

I thought the there are signals in the stream so the local stations can automatically program in their commercials. TiVo just leverages what was not intended for us.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> I'm getting Commercial skip on the Food Network all hours of the day, 6:30 AM 11 AM 4pm and none of these shows air during prime time, and most are repeats from over a year ago? Could my guys just really like their job and are doing it all the time?


It appears that the data can be reused, so if that episode aired in the window at any time since SkipMide has been active then they can reuse the data from that for episodes that air outside the window.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Doug95630 said:


> I thought the there are signals in the stream so the local stations can automatically program in their commercials. TiVo just leverages what was not intended for us.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Some networks do have cue tones that signal the start of the local break, but that wouldn't help with network breaks. And actually most local stations are inserting the local commercials manually themselves at the station.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> It appears that the data can be reused, so if that episode aired in the window at any time since SkipMide has been active then they can reuse the data from that for episodes that air outside the window.


Like I posted these shows do not air during the window. Always mornings


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> Like I posted these shows do not air during the window. Always mornings


Perhaps they air at a different time someplace else in the country? I have no idea as I don't have cable just guessing.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> Like I posted these shows do not air during the window. Always mornings


Are they shows that maybe play on one of the other 19 channels SkipMode covers?

It's also possible they had a bigger window during the beta and these shows happened to get picked up.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Did the Food network shows get the skip mode yesterday? I recorded around ten shows from the network during the day yesterday, but none of them showed up with Skip mode.

Skip mode has still been inconsistent for me. I noticed last night that my recording of The Librarians didn't have Skip mode. The last two weeks it didn't show up. But three and four weeks ago the show had Skip mode.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

It did yesterdays show at 12 noon, but this mornings it didn't ( or not yet)...










Also no skip mode for Librarians, on the 4 episodes I have recorded, all recorded at 7 pm


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

bicker said:


> No. They watch them as they're broadcast. That's why there is some latency between broadcast and when the Commercial Skip function becomes available.


I hope you are wrong about that... It seems like a very poor process if that were true. I would design it much simpler:

Auto com skip would be used to identify and mark all the commercials in real time. As the shows play, the human is presented a queue with each marked begin and end point for evaluation - irrespective of the program. That human would use simple dial video editing controls to fine tune the placement. What are we talking about; 20 channels, 6 breaks per hour is 120 sections to be evaluated and tuned per hour?

fine tune -> next -> fine tune -> next

Since the human would only be presented and validating the start and end points of each break without regard to channel, a single overworked person could manage all the necessary edits. Staff it with two live bodies during the prime time hours and this becomes very manageable.

I suspect we are talking a small number of contract staff supporting the required 8 hours a day and 7 days a week coverage (likely in India or the Phillipines)

At least, that is how I would design it.

(Bicker, you may not have actually meant your statement to indicate they were watching all the shows. Not jumping on you in particular.)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

bradleys said:


> bicker said:
> 
> 
> > They watch them as they're broadcast. That's why there is some latency between broadcast and when the Commercial Skip function becomes available.
> ...


Folks may or may not be interested in speculative technical details.

Regardless, in your speculation, you may want to factor in that the design of the service is naturally limited by the fact that the advertisers and therefore the network is adversely affected by it.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

bicker said:


> Folks may or may not be interested in speculative technical details.


Likely not!  I do suggest that it would be asinine for TiVo to have 20 people watching TV setting break points, but for all we know that is what they are doing.

If that were true, the staffing model for 20 channels, 8 hours, 7 days a week would be insane!



> Regardless, in your speculation, you may want to factor in that the design of the service is naturally limited by the fact that the advertisers and therefore the network is adversely affected by it.


Yes, the advertisers are adversely impacted... TiVo still requires a definitive action to skip the commercial, and it is only available after the show is over. I would argue this isn't much more disruptive than ff and 30 second skip.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

bradleys said:


> If that were true, the staffing model for 20 channels, 8 hours, 7 days a week would be insane!


How so? These would not be very well paid people and it could conceivably be done in their homes. Seems like perfect work for disability retirees or some such. (And would it actually be legal to transmit US television programming to some facility outside of the US for processing? Sounds almost certainly a violation of copyright).

What they say on their support page is:



> A dedicated team of TV-enthusiasts watches popular shows as they air and note where programming resumes after commercial breaks. This information is applied over the programs by the TiVo service as soon as it is available.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

mikeyts said:


> How so? These would not be very well paid people and it could conceivably be done in their homes. Seems like perfect work for disability retirees or some such. (And would it actually be legal to transmit US television programming to some facility outside of the US for processing? Sounds almost certainly a violation of copyright).
> 
> What they say on their support page is:


Because TiVo isn't in business to employ people it is in business to make money. Unless those dedicated enthusiests are volunteering their time, that is a ridiculous model.

TiVo wouldn't be sending content for consumption, only processing. And if they followed my design, they wouldn't even be sending the entire shows.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

bradleys said:


> TiVo wouldn't be sending content for consumption, only processing. And if they followed my design, they wouldn't even be sending the entire shows.


I don't think it matters whether anyone ever views any part of it. I believe that making a copy of copyrighted material and sending it to anyone without the permission of the copyright holder is illegal distribution (as the makers of ReplayTV 4000 with it's "Send Show" feature discovered). I somehow doubt that the copyright holders in this instance would give their consent.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

If that is true they could do the same thing on the east coast, but I still think allowing access for post processing would be well within the fair use rights.

Either way the difference is between two staff members and 20 during any given period of time. Scheduling vacations, weekends, sick days, etc... For 8 hours a day, seven days a week would require at least 30+ FTE's

TiVo only has 600 employees - that is a pretty significant increase in FTE count for a single feature and only 20 channels. Hell at $15 an hour that would be almost a million dollars a year and that includes no benefits!

We aren't going to know how this is truly done, but logic simply doesn't allow every channel to be monitored every day in real time. It makes no sense...

A mechanism that combines systematic preprocessing with manual validation and fine tuning would drop that cost and effort within reason - any other option is ludicrous.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

bradleys said:


> If that were true, the staffing model for 20 channels, 8 hours, 7 days a week would be insane!


Huh? There are loads of business that have far more than 20 slots to fill 7 days a week. That's a trivial operations research problem.



bradleys said:


> Yes, the advertisers are adversely impacted... *TiVo still requires a definitive action to skip the commercial*


That was my point.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

bicker said:


> Huh? There are loads of business that have far more than 20 slots to fill 7 days a week. That's a trivial operations research problem.
> 
> That was my point.


You think 20 FTE's for a small company like TiVo is trivial?

Even if it was (and it isn't), it would be a terrible approach and bad business model when other technical solutions are easily available to automate the heavy lifting.

All that said, we both agree TiVo has a human being involved in the process and we have drug this thread off topic way too long.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

bradleys said:


> You think 20 FTE's for a small company like TiVo is trivial?


TiVo is an order of magnitude larger than my company (well, before we were acquired last month). With TiVo's cash available, setting up an operation whereby some production support activity is undertaken would be well within our means. We're not talking about adding 20 software developers. We're talking about adding 20 (probably closer to 60) part-time television watchers.



bradleys said:


> Even if it was (and it isn't), it would be a terrible approach and bad business model when other technical solutions are easily available to automate the heavy lifting.


Of course they're going to use whatever conveniences they can, but the point was they're not going to get any cooperation from the networks in that regard.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

bicker said:


> Of course they're going to use whatever conveniences they can, but the point was they're not going to get any cooperation from the networks in that regard.


Of course not... Whatever approach they use, they need to do this based on what they have. Comskip technologies have been around for a very long time. I simply suggest they are combining usage of existing comskip utilities with human validation in order to stay legal. And do it with 1/10 th the staff needed for 100% manual processing.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

What is the quickest time that skipmode became available and a show initially aired?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

waynomo said:


> What is the quickest time that skipmode became available and a show initially aired?


I think the best I have seen is 5 minutes after the ending. Have checked several different times all within 15 minutes of the shows end.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

waynomo said:


> What is the quickest time that skipmode became available and a show initially aired?


I've seen it show up within three minutes of a show ending.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

Just tested this on "Once upon a time" 1 minute after recording. I thought I've seen it that fast on most of my network shows.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> Just tested this on "Once upon a time" 1 minute after recording. I thought I've seen it that fast on most of my network shows.


They're probably marking the shows in the East, so they're basically instant for all other time zones. Knowing what I know now about how they work they don't need to do separate marks for different time zones like I had originally assumed.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> They're probably marking the shows in the East, so they're basically instant for all other time zones. Knowing what I know now about how they work they don't need to do separate marks for different time zones like I had originally assumed.


East and Central shows air at the same time.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> East and Central shows air at the same time.


Really? So all your primetime stuff starts at 7:00pm? I knew you got the same broadcast, didn't realize it was at the same time.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Really? So all your primetime stuff starts at 7:00pm? I knew you got the same broadcast, didn't realize it was at the same time.


Don't they still advertise on shows, for example, "coming on at 8pm Eastern and 7pm Central time" ?


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Really? So all your primetime stuff starts at 7:00pm? I knew you got the same broadcast, didn't realize it was at the same time.


Yes our prime time is 7PM to 10pm

I just noticed the "The Wiz Live" has the skip function, even tho it was live.
I'm happy about that, haven't watched it yet, but I heard it was very good but a LOT of commercials, probably needed do to the set changes.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> Don't they still advertise on shows, for example, "coming on at 8pm Eastern and 7pm Central time" ?


I'm fairly sure that they do. I grew up in Saint Louis and most of my family is still there.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Our prime time here starts at 2pm 

......Just kidding  we start at 7pm, but live sporting events do start that early. 7am NFL is awesome with a warm cup o' joe!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Really? So all your primetime stuff starts at 7:00pm? I knew you got the same broadcast, didn't realize it was at the same time.


When you grow up with it, 7-10 seems quite normal for "primetime". I find the concept of 11:00 news... just odd. It's so _late_.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

astrohip said:


> When you grow up with it, 7-10 seems quite normal for "primetime". I find the concept of 11:00 news... just odd. It's so _late_.


For decades I always thought it would be great for everything to start an hour earlier on the East Coast like it does in the Central time Zone. But at least with time shifting it's not much of an issue.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> When you grow up with it, 7-10 seems quite normal for "primetime". I find the concept of 11:00 news... just odd. It's so _late_.


I've never lived anywhere but the West coast, so I didn't realize that's how it worked. I've heard the blurbs about things starting "9, 8 central" but I guess I never really put together what that meant.

So how does it work for Mountain? Do they get the East coast feeds 2 hours early or the West coast feeds an hour late? 12:00 news is really late.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

CBS's broadcast of Supergirl tonight:

New York WCBS-DT - 2.1 Mon, 12/07, *8*:00 PM
Chicago WBBM-DT - 2.1 Mon, 12/07, *7*:00 PM
Denver KCNC-DT1 - 4.1 Mon, 12/07, *7*:00 PM
Los Angeles KCBS-DT - 2.1 Mon, 12/07, *8*:00 PM


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

bicker said:


> CBS's broadcast of Supergirl tonight:
> 
> New York WCBS-DT - 2.1 Mon, 12/07, *8*:00 PM
> Chicago WBBM-DT - 2.1 Mon, 12/07, *7*:00 PM
> ...


Network executives must think that fly-over country is filled with farmers that get up with the sun.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

What I gather from this is that Mountain Time generally tape-delays the East Coast feed by one hour to air at the same wall clock time as in Central. I do recall that they used to say "... at 9 PM, 8 Central and Mountain Time".


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ej42137 said:


> Network executives must think that fly-over country is filled with farmers that get up with the sun.


That was to a great extent the case, actually, _when the local culture related to prime time was established. _The Mountain time really underscores how deliberate this must have been: Otherwise, since they're broadcasting just for Mountain time (rather than it being a shared broadcast across two time zones like Eastern and Central), why choose 7pm instead 8pm unless that was what the folks living there rewarded the networks for doing?

Now, I bet most people who live in the Central and Mountain time zones would be disappointed by being forced by network executives in LA and NY to stay up an hour later to enjoy prime time.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

I like prime time starting at 7 PM even tho I don't start watching till 8:00


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## Megamind (Feb 18, 2013)

Here in Sacramento we have a mixed start.  Most of our local stations start primetime at 8pm, with the exception of the CBS affiliate (KOVR), which starts primetime an hour earlier at 7pm. 

It's been that way for many years, going all the way back to when KOVR switched from ABC to CBS. At the time of the switch, they wanted to move their newscast from 11pm to 10pm, following the lead of their sister station KPIX. Being an early-to-bed, early-to-rise family, we always liked the 7pm start. Of course with a DVR, it doesn't make much of a difference anymore.


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