# TiVo Mini pre-order, review and tips thread



## jmpage2

This thread can serve as a "Fresh start" for people who have pre-ordered the TiVo Mini, who have a review or impressions to share about the TiVo Mini or want to discuss tips/tricks and user experiences.


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## Dan203

I see links to the Mini on the Products and Shop drop down menus on the main TiVo.com site. Neither link does anything right this second, but the fact that it's listed on their live site seems to indicate that the poster who told us about the March 6th date was right. Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll actually launch it today or tomorrow instead.


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## MPSAN

Dan203 said:


> I see links to the Mini on the Products and Shop drop down menus on the main TiVo.com site. Neither link does anything right this second, but the fact that it's listed on their live site seems to indicate that the poster who told us about the March 6th date was right. Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll actually launch it today or tomorrow instead.


I hope the offer(s) include a bundle as I need TWO Premiere 4 units as well as 1 MINI!


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## Loach

MPSAN said:


> I hope the offer(s) include a bundle as I need TWO Premiere 4 units as well as 1 MINI!


That's the problem with these bundles - everybody's idea of a good bundle will be different, so many of us (if not all of us) might be disappointed. I need a Premiere and 2 Minis. Or just 2 minis and wait to buy a 3rd Mini until > 2 are supported per Premiere 4/XL4.


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## Arcady

They will have a bundle. It will be the actual retail price of each unit added together, just like the bundles they have now.


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## rainwater

Arcady said:


> They will have a bundle. It will be the actual retail price of each unit added together, just like the bundles they have now.


The current bundle saves you over $130 for the Stream, MoCA adapter, and Premiere 4.


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## Davelnlr_

I looked all over Tivo.com and dont see any links. Their chat person said there was no release date available at this time... Hope you guys are more informed than tivo chat. I need to add a third room, and dont want to mess with Comcast adding yet another cablecard. Ive had 0% luck so far getting one paired without a truck roll.


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## teklock

Loach said:


> That's the problem with these bundles - everybody's idea of a good bundle will be different, so many of us (if not all of us) might be disappointed. I need a Premiere and 2 Minis. Or just 2 minis and wait to buy a 3rd Mini until > 2 are supported per Premiere 4/XL4.


The bundle prices are already there...

http://www3-beta.tivo.com/promo/wholehome-bundle/index_newmini.html


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## aaronwt

teklock said:


> The bundle prices are already there...
> 
> http://www3-beta.tivo.com/promo/wholehome-bundle/index_newmini.html


And those look like they are the same prices if everything is purchased separately.



> TiVo Premiere 4 & Mini Bundle $349.98
> 
> Premiere 4, Mini & Stream Bundle $479.97
> 
> XL4 & Mini Bundle $499.98
> 
> XL4, Mini & Stream Bundle $629.97


I guess the prices could change when the page actually goes live.


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## DaveDFW

Arcady said:


> They will have a bundle. It will be the actual retail price of each unit added together, just like the bundles they have now.


Prescience or cynicism? Either way, you're correct!


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## Davelnlr_

So subtracting, Mini is $99 and lifetime is $150? That is reasonable to save the $9.95 outlet fee from Comcast each month.


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## UCLABB

aaronwt said:


> And those look like they are the same prices if everything is purchased separately.
> 
> I guess the prices could change when the page actually goes live.


I am sorta relieved. I just bought an XL4 from a third party seller. I'd be pissed if TiVo actually had a bundle sale but I suspected they wouldn't. So, I saved $60 plus sales tax off the TiVo price, about $85 total for me.


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## UCLABB

teklock said:


> The bundle prices are already there...
> 
> http://www3-beta.tivo.com/promo/wholehome-bundle/index_newmini.html


Click on Mini pic and you get a box showing a Premiere. Oh well.


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## Dan203

Davelnlr_ said:


> I looked all over Tivo.com and dont see any links.


Looks like they removed them. They were there earlier.


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## NotNowChief

I will be absolutely and positively dumbfounded if I can buy this thing today or tomorrow.


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## markp99

Oopsie, they need a copy editor: 










http://www3-beta.tivo.com/promo/wholehome-bundle/index_newmini.html


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## Tropic

markp99 said:


> Oopsie, they need a copy editor:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www3-beta.tivo.com/promo/wholehome-bundle/index_newmini.html


They also have the wrong picture of the Tivo/Mini combo for $499.98


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## tatergator1

I don't think anyone should expect discounts on bundles for the several months following the initial release. Prices will be retail for several months because there will always be the first-adopters out there willing to pay top dollar. Discounts come after several months when Tivo is confident all the first-adopters have paid full price, they will then offer modest bundle discounts to try to capture the next segment of buyers who really want the Mini, but wanted to get a "deal."

Personally, it would be nice to have one Mini now, but with a 6-tuner box with Stream somewhere on the horizon (at least we all hope so), and dynamic tuner allocation still to come, I'm gonna wait.


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## Time_Lord

As I see it Tivo has overpriced the Mini and I will not be buying one.

based on the bundle price of a TiVo Premiere 4 & Mini of $349.98, that makes the Mini's cost $100 which in itself isn't too bad HOWEVER the monthly service fee of $6 per month or $150 for the lifetime makes the cost unrealistic.

1) I give up a tuner on my Premier 4
2) instead of paying $6 a month to the cable company for a second box I pay it to TiVO (break even is almost 42 months vs cable company)

And if this actually comes to bear fruit: http://www.dailytech.com/FCC+to+For...D+With+Open+Standard+by+2014/article29357.htm then IMHO the Mini will be dead as far as many customers are concerned. I for one would end up dumping my premier and simply keep my premier 4.

-TL


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## jmpage2

Time_Lord said:


> As I see it Tivo has overpriced the Mini and I will not be buying one.
> 
> based on the bundle price of a TiVo Premiere 4 & Mini of $349.98, that makes the Mini's cost $100 which in itself isn't too bad HOWEVER the monthly service fee of $6 per month or $150 for the lifetime makes the cost unrealistic.
> 
> 1) I give up a tuner on my Premier 4
> 2) instead of paying $6 a month to the cable company for a second box I pay it to TiVO (break even is almost 42 months vs cable company)
> 
> And if this actually comes to bear fruit: http://www.dailytech.com/FCC+to+For...D+With+Open+Standard+by+2014/article29357.htm then IMHO the Mini will be dead as far as many customers are concerned. I for one would end up dumping my premier and simply keep my premier 4.
> 
> -TL


This is not a debate thread. This is not a "is the price fair" thread. This is a pre-order, reviews and tips thread. If you want a thread about the price being too high then please create one, or contribute to the "TiVo Mini Lives" thread.

This thread is already getting big enough without the pre-order being available without it becoming a junk yard for everyone's pre-release gripes.


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## MPSAN

Loach said:


> That's the problem with these bundles - everybody's idea of a good bundle will be different, so many of us (if not all of us) might be disappointed. I need a Premiere and 2 Minis. Or just 2 minis and wait to buy a 3rd Mini until > 2 are supported per Premiere 4/XL4.


Tivo sent me an email today that the current Bundle expires on 3/11. IF they have a new bundle with a P4 and Mini, and I need 1 Mini and 2 P4's I wonder if we could sell a New never opened Mini?

Also, they may let you put 2 bundles in your cart and then change the Mini to ONE.


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## MPSAN

markp99 said:


> Oopsie, they need a copy editor:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www3-beta.tivo.com/promo/wholehome-bundle/index_newmini.html


I sea this kind of think everywhere now!


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## Loach

MPSAN said:


> Tivo sent me an email today that the current Bundle expires on 3/11. IF they have a new bundle with a P4 and Mini, and I need 1 Mini and 2 P4's I wonder if we could sell a New never opened Mini?
> 
> Also, they may let you put 2 bundles in your cart and then change the Mini to ONE.


I'll be a little surprised if there is a discounted bundle involving the Mini at launch, although I suppose it's possible if they want to take the Mini launch as an opportunity to pump up Premiere sales.


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## takeagabu

Time_Lord said:


> And if this actually comes to bear fruit: http://www.dailytech.com/FCC+to+For...D+With+Open+Standard+by+2014/article29357.htm then IMHO the Mini will be dead as far as many customers are concerned. I for one would end up dumping my premier and simply keep my premier 4.
> 
> -TL


The FCC mandates many things and all too often no one pays attention and there is no enforcement


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## atmuscarella

Loach said:


> I'll be a little surprised if there is a discounted bundle involving the Mini at launch, although I suppose it's possible if they want to take the Mini launch as an opportunity to pump up Premiere sales.


? The only reason for the Mini is to support Premiere sales, now if they offer any discounts right away or not is another matter they may want to start slow to be able to deal with any unknown issues that come up.


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## SactoEJ

My question is this: can 1 Tivo mini participate in a network with two XL4 Tivos as a client of both?

If so, how does it work to switch from one to the other for a) Streaming existing content and b) grabbing a tuner for live TV?

Thanks!
Ed


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## Loach

atmuscarella said:


> ? The only reason for the Mini is to support Premiere sales, now if they offer any discounts right away or not is another matter they may want to start slow to be able to deal with any unknown issues that come up.


I'm sure they'd be happy to sell Minis to existing owners of Premiere 4s and XL4s like me as well.

EDIT: And they might want to work through the demand from owners like me before making a push for new subscribers with discounted bundle packages.


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## Loach

SactoEJ said:


> My question is this: can 1 Tivo mini participate in a network with two XL4 Tivos as a client of both?
> 
> If so, how does it work to switch from one to the other for a) Streaming existing content and b) grabbing a tuner for live TV?
> 
> Thanks!
> Ed


I believe you'll have to pair your Mini with one P4 or XL4 for purposes of hijacking a tuner for live TV, but you'll also be able to stream recorded content from other Tivos on your network.


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## magnus

Will there not be a discount on service for the Mini if you already have a lifetime Premiere?


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## waterchange

magnus said:


> Will there not be a discount on service for the Mini if you already have a lifetime Premiere?


Nope.


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## magnus

That sucks. I'm waiting for these to be at least $50 cheaper then.


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## Dan203

The Mini requires another active TiVo to even function, so for it the Multi-Service Discount is implied.


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## magnus

Dan203 said:


> The Mini requires another active TiVo to even function, so for it the Multi-Service Discount is implied.


Ok, I guess so but for $250 what am I getting? Will it do Netflix and Amazon? If it does not do that then it's a pass for me until it does.


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## moyekj

magnus said:


> Ok, I guess so but for $250 what am I getting? Will it do Netflix and Amazon? If it does not do that then it's a pass for me until it does.


 Netflix it's suspected not - at least not yet for some reason. Amazon is a definite no since Amazon instant streaming is not supported on TiVo platform period and Amazon downloads obviously won't work for a Mini without a hard drive.


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## takeagabu

moyekj said:


> and Amazon downloads obviously won't work for a Mini without a hard drive.


I'm hoping that the DRM will allow for download onto the xl4 and streaming to the mini


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## teklock

UCLABB said:


> Click on Mini pic and you get a box showing a Premiere. Oh well.


This is fixed now... guess we're getting close?


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## Dr_Zoidberg

What are the network options for the Mini? They talk about Wired ethernet...does the Mini support MoCa? The reason I ask is that where I'd put the Mini does not have access to a wired network.


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## UCLABB

went to tivo chat and agent said no release date set and wondered where I got my info.


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## rainwater

takeagabu said:


> I'm hoping that the DRM will allow for download onto the xl4 and streaming to the mini


MRS does not work with Amazon downloads. It never has before.


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## P42

@Dr_Zoidberg: Yes the Mini supports MOCA


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## SactoEJ

UCLABB said:


> went to tivo chat and agent said no release date set and wondered where I got my info.


I did the same thing. The reply I got was that it was not available and there was no release date. I did not get a question on where I got my info.

I think that the 3/6 date is bogus.


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## NotNowChief

All these months of waiting, I'm sitting here waiting with my credit card. 

Let's go guys, get this thing out!


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## Kingpcgeek

Rumors mill had two big releases today, TiVo Mini and Roku 3. Roku 3 came true, come on Tivo, now it's your turn.


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## Riverdome

Kingpcgeek said:


> Rumors mill had two big releases today, TiVo Mini and Roku 3. Roku 3 came true, come on Tivo, now it's your turn.


Might be reason enough to push the release back 24-48 hours. Don't want your big news to get lost in the Roku noise.


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## NotNowChief

I *REALLY* hope they don't make me FACEPALM *AGAIN*.


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## zubinh

It's not even 8am on the west coast yet, lets cut them some slack. But the fact that the chat reps know nothing and there's no press release does not bode well for today I'm still hoping to head to the Verzion store this weekend with my $7/month set top boxes in tow


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## dhoward

I have to admit. I am disappointed about today...so far. I thought the poster who said the 6th knew what she was talking about. I had been waiting to replace my HD with a P4 with the release of the Mini. When I read the post I decided to pull the trigger. I have a buyer for my HD and the P4 arrives today. I don't regret the purchase but I am disappointed I cannot marry it to a Mini. Tivo worries me in that they are very slow in releasing product and if the 6th was incorrect who knows when it will really become available. Oh well at least I get to play with a P4. The posters comments spread over the internet. I wish she would post and maybe update her original posting.


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## SactoEJ

dhoward said:


> I have to admit. I am disappointed about today...so far. I thought the poster who said the 6th knew what she was talking about. I had been waiting to replace my HD with a P4 with the release of the Mini.


You aren't alone on this. Me too.


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## rainwater

People are disappointed a date that TiVo never announced has come and there is no announcement? Clearly it is coming judging by the updates to tivo.com. Have a little patience.


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## billbillw

Time_Lord said:


> As I see it Tivo has overpriced the Mini and I will not be buying one.
> 
> based on the bundle price of a TiVo Premiere 4 & Mini of $349.98, that makes the Mini's cost $100 which in itself isn't too bad HOWEVER the monthly service fee of $6 per month or $150 for the lifetime makes the cost unrealistic.
> 
> 1) I give up a tuner on my Premier 4
> 2) instead of paying $6 a month to the cable company for a second box I pay it to TiVO (break even is almost 42 months vs cable company)
> 
> And if this actually comes to bear fruit: http://www.dailytech.com/FCC+to+For...D+With+Open+Standard+by+2014/article29357.htm then IMHO the Mini will be dead as far as many customers are concerned. I for one would end up dumping my premier and simply keep my premier 4.
> 
> -TL


I don't know about your setup, but for me, a $6 set top box from the cable company would be non-HD and non-DVR with no networking features. Since the Mini can watch recorded shows, it should be compared with an HDDVR.

Comcast would charge a $10 HD fee which I am not paying now, plus $10 for a 1st HDDVR. (2nd ones would be $20 each).

As it is for me now, I have 3 Tivos, all with cable cards. Comcast charges me $10 each for the 2nd and 3rd Tivos (additional digital outlet BS). No charges for Cable Cards themselves.

With the Tivo Mini, I can get rid of at least one of my Tivos and loose $10/month Comcast fee, plus have reduced Tivo monthly fees ($6 vs $13). So it would save me $17/month and break even would be in less than 15 months. I think the pricing is quite reasonable. The only thing holding me back is that I must have Netflix streaming on the Mini, or its just not worth the switch.


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## jjd_87

rainwater said:


> People are disappointed a date that TiVo never announced has come and there is no announcement? Clearly it is coming judging by the updates to tivo.com. Have a little patience.


I wouldn't completely count it out till 10AM California time (1PM Eastern).


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## dhoward

You are right. Tivo never did announce this. I am not upset with Tivo. I am more upset that I wanted to believe the OP. You are also correct in that Tivo obviously is close because of some of the Beta pages that were setup and are now gone. It may still come out this week. I hope so anyway. Even more I hope it lives up to the hype that I have created in my mind. The day is not over. It is just starting in Calif....


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## SactoEJ

rainwater said:


> People are disappointed a date that TiVo never announced has come and there is no announcement? Clearly it is coming judging by the updates to tivo.com. Have a little patience.


I'm not disappointed with TiVo, I'm just impatient! 

I want it and I want it now.


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## dhoward

That is my problem to. Tivo is going to love customers like us.


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## jmpage2

dhoward said:


> You are right. Tivo never did announce this. I am not upset with Tivo. I am more upset that I wanted to believe the OP. You are also correct in that Tivo obviously is close because of some of the Beta pages that were setup and are now gone. It may still come out this week. I hope so anyway. Even more I hope it lives up to the hype that I have created in my mind. The day is not over. It is just starting in Calif....


The OP never said March 6th. That info came from other people in the "TiVo Mini Lives" thread.


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## Davisadm

jmpage2 said:


> The OP never said March 6th. That info came from other people in the "TiVo Mini Lives" thread.





DigitalDawn said:


> I just finished the online dealer meeting For the TiVo Mini. I was told I could repeat all the info I learned, so here goes.
> 
> *TiVo Mini Launch:* March 6, 2013





dhoward said:


> Tivo never did announce this.


TiVo did tell dealers that the Mini's release date is March 6. The OP did say it was March 6


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## jjd_87

Davisadm said:


> TiVo did tell dealers that the Mini's release date is March 6. The OP did say it was March 6


Has DigitalDawn commented on this today?


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## dhoward

The correct question is did the person who said that Tivo would release the Mini on Mar. 6th tell the truth? Has that person ever posted after their initial post? This is the only person who said that this info came from Tivo. How do we even know that it was not made up? Probably was not but still...


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## Davisadm

dhoward said:


> The correct question is did the person who said that Tivo would release the Mini on Mar. 6th tell the truth? Has that person ever posted after their initial post? This is the only person who said that this info came from Tivo. How do we even know that it was not made up? Probably was not but still...


I also attended the online dealer meeting for the Mini. This is legitimate, coming from TiVo.


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## NotNowChief

They haven't even done the press release yet 13:30EST.


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## jjd_87

Davisadm said:


> I also attended the online dealer meeting for the Mini. This is legitimate, coming from TiVo.


Well if thats the case maybe they are just screwing with us.


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## Davisadm

NotNowChief said:


> They haven't even done the press release yet 13:30EST.


You do have a valid point!


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## SactoEJ

Davisadm said:


> You do have a valid point!


What is the point? I must have missed something...


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## dhoward

Davisadm said:


> I also attended the online dealer meeting for the Mini. This is legitimate, coming from TiVo.


OK. That helps. Confirmation is always good. Thank you.


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## Austin Bike

takeagabu said:


> The FCC mandates many things and all too often no one pays attention and there is no enforcement


Yeah, I just heard the same thing last night over my analog TV connection 

The industry does need to do something because they recognize that the internet is quickly consuming their market. People are cutting the cable (no pun intended) because of the cost/lock in that these companies employ.

I don't think the answer is tivo long term (that becomes a double edged sword for them...) but something will rise from the ashes of all of this. Then it will all splinter again. It's a pretty standard cycle.


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## jmpage2

Austin Bike said:


> Yeah, I just heard the same thing last night over my analog TV connection
> 
> The industry does need to do something because they recognize that the internet is quickly consuming their market. People are cutting the cable (no pun intended) because of the cost/lock in that these companies employ.
> 
> I don't think the answer is tivo long term (that becomes a double edged sword for them...) but something will rise from the ashes of all of this. Then it will all splinter again. It's a pretty standard cycle.


This is seriously OT (read the thread title), can we please keep this kind of completely OT discussion out of this thread? Thanks.


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## lessd

jmpage2 said:


> This is seriously OT (read the thread title), can we please keep this kind of completely OT discussion out of this thread? Thanks.


+1

When TiVo does release the Mini, then we should start another Thread call something like *TiVo released the Mini and information about ways to purchase.
*


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## NotNowChief

jmpage2 said:


> This is seriously OT (read the thread title), can we please keep this kind of completely OT discussion out of this thread? Thanks.


I don't mean to sound disrespectful or anything, but isn't the thread title in and of itself off-topic?

We can't pre-order.
We can't review something we don't have.
We can't have any tips because no one has one yet because they can't even sell them.


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## jjd_87

NotNowChief said:


> I don't mean to sound disrespectful or anything, but isn't the thread title in and of itself off-topic?
> 
> We can't pre-order.
> We can't review something we don't have.
> We can't have any tips because no one has one yet because they can't even sell them.


:up:

He's just pissy cause he started this thread.


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## Dan203

I have to agree. Until it's actually available there is no need for an on topic pre-order thread. Threads have a tendency to wander off topic even when the primary topic is something people can actually discuss. Trying to create a placeholder for something that hasn't even happened yet is just asking for trouble.


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## aaronwt

Man, I got screwed twice today. No TiVo Mini, and nowhere near the amount of snow that they were calling for in my area. At least I didn't have a strike out. Roku came through on the release of the Roku 3 today.


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## NotNowChief

I make amazing homemade pizza. I find that the perfect method is prebaking the homemade crust for a bit first with the sauce on it, then taking it out of the oven and allowing it to cool, then adding the cheese, then finishing cooking until the cheese starts to brown. Anybody else have a suggestion?

Thanks.

P.S. - Don't overdo it with the oregano.

(Just kidding, everyone relax!)


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## cballadp

It is probably worth mentioning that I called TiVo to order a mini, just to see what would happen and on the 2nd call, the sales agent said that although the launch was today, it got pushed back for unknown reasons.

When I asked about when we might be able to order, she stated that if it's not tomorrow, it'll be within the next few weeks.


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## NotNowChief

cballadp said:


> It is probably worth mentioning that I called TiVo to order a mini, just to see what would happen and on the 2nd call, the sales agent said that although the launch was today, it got pushed back for unknown reasons.
> 
> When I asked about when we might be able to order, she stated that if it's not tomorrow, it'll be within the next few weeks.


TIVO:


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## DaveDFW

cballadp said:


> it'll be within the next few weeks.


Sigh.


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## NotNowChief

We should've known. Shame on us.


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## aaronwt

Well maybe there is a store out there that will still put them out for sale by mistake?


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## NotNowChief

How can you NOT shake your head at them?


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## Riverdome

Very possible the marketing people didn't want to go head to head with Roku. To Joe public there's plenty of confusion over a Tivo mini that streams programming and a Roku 3 . . . that steams programming.


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## MPSAN

See, I told you TiVO should change their name to SONY..as in Soon Only Not Yet!


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## DaveDFW

Riverdome said:


> To Joe public there's plenty of confusion over a Tivo mini that streams programming and a Roku 3 . . . that steams programming.


"I think I'd rather buy the one that's twice the price!"


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## MHunter1

I'm concerned whether the Mini will have loud fan noise like the Stream does. I have to hide my Stream away in a closet and run an unsightly extension power cord to it because of the fan's annoying hum frequency.


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## Dan203

MHunter1 said:


> I'm concerned whether the Mini will have loud fan noise like the Stream does. I have to hide my Stream away in a closet and run an unsightly extension power cord to it because of the fan's annoying hum frequency.


I don't think the Mini has a fan at all.


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## Dan203

Riverdome said:


> Very possible the marketing people didn't want to go head to head with Roku. To Joe public there's plenty of confusion over a Tivo mini that streams programming and a Roku 3 . . . that steams programming.


I guess that's possible, but it seems silly since they actually provide very different functionality. The Roku is designed to stream from a bunch of different internet based programming providers. The Mini's main purpose is to stream programs on your TiVo across the local network to another room in the house. With the exception of them both, potentially, providing access to Netflix, Hulu and YouTube, the is very little overlap.


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## Fist of Death

jjd_87 said:


> :up:
> 
> He's just pissy cause he started this thread.


Thanks for the laugh - I needed that! :up:


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## jmpage2

The entire point of this thread was to have a place to discuss pre-order status, as it was anticipated that those pre-orders would start soon (and for reference, I am the OP and I did not state that it was launching March 6th, just that it would be launching soon).

As is usual, people just assume that any thread that is even tangentially connected is a dumping ground for them to discuss whatever the hell they please, completely off topic or otherwise.... that thread already exists, see ridiculously huge "Mini Lives" thread.

I don't usually take myself or thread topics very seriously, but some of you guys need to learn some basic forum etiquette, because you fail at internet manners.

I will go ahead and un-subscribe myself, feel free to carry on and make asses of yourselves.


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## DaveDFW

Dan203 said:


> Trying to create a placeholder for something that hasn't even happened yet is just asking for trouble.


This.


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## SactoEJ

jmpage2 said:


> I am the OP...I don't usually take myself or thread topics very seriously, but...I will go ahead and un-subscribe myself...


Wow!


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## compnurd

SactoEJ said:


> Wow!


( | )


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## dhoward

I am sorry you are taking the comments so hard. I believe I am the one who said the op was the one who gave the date. I forgot which thread had that statement and accidently referenced you. I apologize for that error. I do not think anyone was attacking you or even criticizing you. I agree that until tivo actually releases the mini then any comments are ok. It was nice of you to start a thread as you like many of us believed the march 6th info. I for one am glad to read all the comments because they make me feel that I am not alone in my dissapointment in Tivos non release. Misery love company. Now if UPS would just deliver my P4......


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## jfh3

Riverdome said:


> Very possible the marketing people didn't want to go head to head with Roku. To Joe public there's plenty of confusion over a Tivo mini that streams programming and a Roku 3 . . . that steams programming.


What marketing people? I've been on the "get info about the Mini" list for months and, as usual, haven't heard a peep from Tivo.

Tivo has absolutely NO IDEA how to market any of their products to the public and doesn't really seem to care.


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## tomm1079

can you get a mini and not tie it to a box? use it as a streaming only device?


----------



## jfh3

Just spoke to a Best Buy regional manager. He checked area warehouses and he can't find the SKU for the Mini, so he can't tell me if there are any. He did say that usually if he can't see a SKU by release date, then Best Buy has pulled or delayed the item.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

tomm1079 said:


> can you get a mini and not tie it to a box? use it as a streaming only device?


You can select on the P4/XL4 not to allocate any tuners. (See Settings > Devices > Allow Live TV on Other Devices) and then just use it for streaming, yes. But having a P4/XL4 is still mandatory.


----------



## jfh3

Release pushed back to next week - speculation is Tuesday - according to a sales rep that reports to have read a memo on the Mini and who says he can't tell me why. 

The official answer is supposed to be "We can't comment about online speculation, but expect to see more information regarding the Tivo Mini on the Tivo home page in the next few days"


----------



## UCLABB

I'm trying to look at the bright side. My xl4 is still in transit so I can't use the mini yet anyway! I was even wondering if they'd sell me one without having a 4 subscribed. 

I had promised the mini for the wife who is constantly losing channels on her straight cable TV. Now, when I get the xl4 I guess she'll get it instead. :-(


----------



## Austin Bike

Riverdome said:


> Very possible the marketing people didn't want to go head to head with Roku. To Joe public there's plenty of confusion over a Tivo mini that streams programming and a Roku 3 . . . that steams programming.


Probably not. I've done hundreds of product launches over the years and I can't think of a single one where we considered changing the date based on a competitors launch. With venues booked, press invited, etc it is really difficult and expensive to change the date. I'd be willing to bet that in the afternoon of September 11th 2001 there were product launches that still happened.

There are dozens of reasons that things move, but rarely is it a competitors launch.


----------



## DigitalDawn

They told us March 6th at the dealer meeting. I guess they decided to postpone it at the last minute.

I see that they have more dealer trainings set up, so maybe they just want to give it a bit more time. Should be this month though.


----------



## takeagabu

DigitalDawn said:


> They told us March 6th at the dealer meeting. I guess they decided to postpone it at the last minute.
> 
> I see that they have more dealer trainings set up, so maybe they just want to give it a bit more time. Should be this month though.


Do you mind telling us when these trainings are set up for? Are they also in anticipation of a release of could they happen after a release?

I am kinda hoping that the heard grumblings about netflix and amazon and are scrambling to get those in....but thats wishful thinking, and with tivo, wishful thinking is almost always wrong.


----------



## aaronwt

takeagabu said:


> Do you mind telling us when these trainings are set up for? Are they also in anticipation of a release of could they happen after a release?
> 
> I am kinda hoping that the heard grumblings about netflix and amazon and are scrambling to get those in....but thats wishful thinking, and with tivo, wishful thinking is almost always wrong.


They would have had to have been scrambling for months to get Netflix and Amazon in?


----------



## Corran Horn

The Netflix isn't quite a dealbreaker for me but it's close. It's disappointing.


----------



## takeagabu

aaronwt said:


> They would have had to have been scrambling for months to get Netflix and Amazon in?


In my head I was thinking that they would probably have it ready with the dynamic allocation update, but that the were scrambling to have it ready now instead.


----------



## jadziedzic

takeagabu said:


> I am kinda hoping that the heard grumblings about netflix and amazon and are scrambling to get those in....but thats wishful thinking, and with tivo, wishful thinking is almost always wrong.


As long as you're on the topic of wishful thinking, I was hoping perhaps they realized $250 was too expensive for the TCF collective, and were looking at ways to trim that price so the faithful would be rewarded for their loyalty


----------



## Austin Bike

takeagabu said:


> Do you mind telling us when these trainings are set up for? Are they also in anticipation of a release of could they happen after a release?
> 
> I am kinda hoping that the heard grumblings about netflix and amazon and are scrambling to get those in....but thats wishful thinking, and with tivo, wishful thinking is almost always wrong.


Having worked in technology retail 20+ years ago I can tell you that there were regular vendor trainings every thursday morning where I worked. Vendors basically pay for the ability to train the sales teams (it is all part of the marketing budget.)

You would typically do these in conjunction to a launch or if there was another competitive reason to do it. Because they were scheduled on a certain day each week, not whenever the vendor wanted, you would need to sign up and get on a schedule. Typically these are all locked down by the beginning of the quarter, so any training that is happening in March was scheduled back in December or so. If your launch date moves you typically don't get an opportunity to change dates unless one happens to be open.

Haven't dealt with retail in ages but in my current role we can "sponsor" training sessions, otherwise we typically don't get access to the sales people.


----------



## compnurd

jadziedzic said:


> As long as you're on the topic of wishful thinking, I was hoping perhaps they realized $250 was too expensive for the TCF collective, and were looking at ways to trim that price so the faithful would be rewarded for their loyalty


250 is not expensive at all. To by a extender for the Direct TV Genie outright would cost you well over 300 dollars... and you still would not escape the monthly fee


----------



## Corran Horn

compnurd said:


> 250 is not expensive at all. To by a extender for the Direct TV Genie outright would cost you well over 300 dollars... and you still would not escape the monthly fee


Yeah, it has to be clear that the streaming from a STB is the differentiator from something like an AppleTV for less than half the price. (of course, that has Netflix)


----------



## SactoEJ

Corran Horn said:


> Yeah, it has to be clear that the streaming from a STB is the differentiator from something like an AppleTV for less than half the price. (of course, that has Netflix)


For my setup I don't care about Amazon, Hulu, iTunes or any other streaming into TiVo. I just want TiVo to handle all my Cable signal recording and streaming needs. It sounds like the Mini will do everything I need as an extender. I can't wait to use it!

I think AppleTV devices are a great and affordable addition.


----------



## Dan203

I still don't see the big deal about the price. Your only other option for gaining the same functionality would be to get a second Premiere. A second Premiere would cost $550 with lifetime. (MSRP) The Mini costs less then 1/2 that. Now with the Premiere you'd be gaining 2 tuners, but you'd also need a CableCARD to watch live TV which is another $2-$5/mo.

I think the only thing wrong with the price of the Mini is people's expectations.


----------



## SactoEJ

Dan203 said:


> I think the only thing wrong with the price of the Mini is people's expectations.


+1

You can round out a whole house with TiVo functionality at a cheaper price than is available right now. Win-Win.


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> I still don't see the big deal about the price. Your only other option for gaining the same functionality would be to get a second Premiere.


It'll be interesting to see how Verizon prices the extenders to go with their new VMS DVR hub later this year. $6 seems too low. But there'd be no upfront hardware expense.


----------



## DaveDFW

Dan203 said:


> I still don't see the big deal about the price. Your only other option for gaining the same functionality would be to get a second Premiere. A second Premiere would cost $550 with lifetime. (MSRP) The Mini costs less then 1/2 that. Now with the Premiere you'd be gaining 2 tuners, but you'd also need a CableCARD to watch live TV which is another $2-$5/mo.
> 
> I think the only thing wrong with the price of the Mini is people's expectations.


Expectations aren't the problem. Didn't everyone *expect* that the Mini would have a high price? This is Tivo we're talking about--they've always sold premium-priced products.

The problem is that not everyone is convinced the Mini's price is justified. There are Tivo diehards who gladly pay whatever Tivo asks for any new device, and there are others who like Tivo's products but nonetheless compare Tivo's offerings with competing devices.


----------



## teklock

SactoEJ said:


> +1
> 
> You can round out a whole house with TiVo functionality at a cheaper price than is available right now. Win-Win.


Can't agree more. $250 isn't bad for what you get. I think people are comparing it all the cheap streaming devices out, but not really thinking about what you get in the end.

I'm in for one, for sure!


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> I still don't see the big deal about the price. Your only other option for gaining the same functionality would be to get a second Premiere. A second Premiere would cost $550 with lifetime. (MSRP) The Mini costs less then 1/2 that. Now with the Premiere you'd be gaining 2 tuners, but you'd also need a CableCARD to watch live TV which is another $2-$5/mo.
> 
> I think the only thing wrong with the price of the Mini is people's expectations.


You could throw a twin-tuner on OTA, and only have one on cable.

$180 is a more fair comparison, as that's what the Ceton Echo costs. Still pricey, especially considering that the Echo is aiming at far more of a niche market than TiVo. Then again, TiVo boxes are way overpriced in the first place, so we shouldn't be surprised that these things are as well.



davezatz said:


> It'll be interesting to see how Verizon prices the extenders to go with their new VMS DVR hub later this year. $6 seems too low. But there'd be no upfront hardware expense.


Unfortunately, the industry standard for HD-DVR extender boxes is trending towards $10/mo.


----------



## oosik77

Would be nice for a better upgrade path for those of us that bought a premiere early as we only have 2 tuners. I'd need the 4 tuner unit, another life time sub, the mini and a life time sub for that. That's quite a price tag, and quite a few months to recover the cost. Cable card runs me $2 a month and my cable box that I'd dump is $8.50 a month so I save $6.50 a month for a $900 investment? That's 138 months just to break even. Oh well I guess the cable company keeps getting my money for now.


----------



## Dan203

DaveDFW said:


> ...compare Tivo's offerings with competing devices.


The Mini is a DVR extender. It's only true competitors are devices offered by MSOs for a flat $7-10/mo or the Ceton Echo which is $180.

It's more expensive then the Ceton Echo, but they're in similar ranges and TiVo has the better brand recognition so they can get away with charging a little more. And compared to the MSO offerings it has about the same break even period as a TiVo vs MSO DVR.

Comparing it to a Roku or Apple TV because they have similar hardware is flawed because they serve two completely different purposes and have completely different business models.


----------



## Dan203

oosik77 said:


> Would be nice for a better upgrade path for those of us that bought a premiere early as we only have 2 tuners. I'd need the 4 tuner unit, another life time sub, the mini and a life time sub for that. That's quite a price tag, and quite a few months to recover the cost. Cable card runs me $2 a month and my cable box that I'd dump is $8.50 a month so I save $6.50 a month for a $900 investment? That's 138 months just to break even. Oh well I guess the cable company keeps getting my money for now.


You wouldn't need another cable card. The 4 tuner units use one card just like the two tuner units. So you'd save the full $8.50/mo for getting rid of the box. Also you'd be able to sell your current TiVo for $300-$350 to help offset the hardware cost. And when it came time to sell the new TiVo/Mini combo they will retain much of their value because of the lifetime service. If you do the long term math it's actually not that bad...

First off let's assume you can sell your current TiVo for $300. That brings the initial buy in down to $600. Now lets assume you keep the new TiVo/Mini combo for 2 years. In that time you will save $8.50/mo for the box which is $204. Which means that as long as you can sell both the TiVo/Mini combo for at least $396 it will have been a complete wash and cost you nothing to own for 2 years of use. And based on historic trends you'll actually be able to sell them for a lot more, probably $600-$700, meaning you'll actually be in the same position you are now with $300 or so to put toward your next TiVo.


----------



## jano18

Dan203 said:


> You wouldn't need another cable card. The 4 tuner units use one card just like the two tuner units. So you'd save the full $8.50/mo for getting rid of the box. Also you'd be able to sell your current TiVo for $300-$350 to help offset the hardware cost. And when it came time to sell the new TiVo/Mini combo they will retain much of their value because of the lifetime service. If you do the long term math it's actually not that bad...
> 
> First off let's assume you can sell your current TiVo for $300. That brings the initial buy in down to $600. Now lets assume you keep the new TiVo/Mini combo for 2 years. In that time you will save $8.50/mo for the box which is $204. Which means that as long as you can sell both the TiVo/Mini combo for at least $396 it will have been a complete wash and cost you nothing to own for 2 years of use. And based on historic trends you'll actually be able to sell them for a lot more, probably $600-$700, meaning you'll actually be in the same position you are now with $300 or so to put toward your next TiVo.


I couldn't agree more, I plan on buying the Mini the day it is released. I will sell my 2 tuner Premiere with lifetime to recoup most of the money I spent on it. This will save me the $7.49 a month I'm paying for a discounted additional outlet fee from Comcast. The only gripe I have is sacrificing a tuner on my XL4, as there are times I do have 4 programs recording during Monday night prime time. I will be using the Mini in my bedroom to watch the news live in the evening. I just hope that TiVo doesn't take forever to release the dynamic tuner update. Once this is enabled, for me it will be the perfect solution. I also hope that the Mini will be able to be controlled via IP or their iOS app.


----------



## DaveDFW

Dan203 said:


> Comparing it to a Roku or Apple TV because they have similar hardware is flawed because they serve two completely different purposes and have completely different business models.


I understand what you're saying but as a consumer, I don't buy devices based on business models. And I continue to disagree that these types of devices have different purposes. They may have different delivery methods, but the end product is exactly the same. The only "different purpose" I see is that sales of the Mini equals cash in Tivo's pockets.

As a consumer, all I care about is receiving my video entertainment, and those "other" devices everyone else at TCF dismisses are more than capable of fulfilling that desire.


----------



## DavidAsher

DaveDFW said:


> I understand what you're saying but as a consumer, I don't buy devices based on business models. And I continue to disagree that these types of devices have different purposes. They may have different delivery methods, but the end product is exactly the same. The only "different purpose" I see is that sales of the Mini equals cash in Tivo's pockets.
> 
> As a consumer, all I care about is receiving my video entertainment, and those "other" devices everyone else at TCF dismisses are more than capable of fulfilling that desire.


The other "different purpose" is to allow you to watch your recordings on another TV in your house cost free and in a timely manner. In order for a Roku or AppleTV to serve this purpose you must wait the the broadcast network to make the episode available AND typically they charge you $1.99/episode or some larger amount for the season subscription.

For example, to watch this week's new Modern Family on AppleTV I would have to purchase it from iTunes. It wouldn't be long before I spent more than the one-time $250 cost of a TiVo mini.


----------



## DaveDFW

DavidAsher said:


> The other "different purpose" is to allow you to watch your recordings on another TV in your house cost free and in a timely manner. In order for a Roku or AppleTV to serve this purpose you must wait the the broadcast network to make the episode available AND typically they charge you $1.99/episode or some larger amount for the season subscription.


There's a piece of the puzzle missing in this example. The four-tuner Tivos require cable service, so you've omitted the cost of that cable service.

That recording you created on a Tivo and streamed to a Mini wasn't entirely free--it's just that you didn't pay a transactional cost for that program.


----------



## jrtroo

Not entirely. For many, like me, this is a significant savings due to the elimination of a cablecard.

That cost savings, and the elimination/avoidance of one more cablecard hassle, no matter how much better things are, is huge. Even if I paid monthly instead of lifetime I would save $3 per month.


----------



## DaveDFW

jrtroo said:


> Not entirely. For many, like me, this is a significant savings due to the elimination of a cablecard.
> 
> That cost savings, and the elimination/avoidance of one more cablecard hassle, no matter how much better things are, is huge. Even if I paid monthly instead of lifetime I would save $3 per month.


Yes, I agree that the Mini makes more sense for subscribers of cable systems that charge punitive cablecard rental fees.


----------



## DavidAsher

DaveDFW said:


> There's a piece of the puzzle missing in this example. The four-tuner Tivos require cable service, so you've omitted the cost of that cable service.
> 
> That recording you created on a Tivo and streamed to a Mini wasn't entirely free--it's just that you didn't pay a transactional cost for that program.


Well thats not really an apples to apples comparison if you make that argument. Nobody is going to buy ONLY a TiVo mini. If you buy a TiVo product at all you've already bought into the cost model where you value cable service.

If you watch little enough TV that cord cutting is a cost effective option, then you shouldn't even be looking at TiVo. IMHO this argument of Mini vs Roku/AppleTV is specious. They don't REALLY provide similar entertainment choices. Especially if you value timely viewing of HBO/Showtime or even many cable shows.

I've been waiting for the Mini to get back into TiVos because without the mini the cost structure is completely out of whack for a 3 TV household. Not only would I have to buy 3 Premieres, but I'd have to pay monthly for 3 cablecards.

I am chomping at the bit to buy a XL4 + 2 Minis (all lifetime because I hate monthly fees).


----------



## atmuscarella

DaveDFW said:


> As a consumer, all I care about is receiving my video entertainment, and those "other" devices everyone else at TCF dismisses are more than capable of fulfilling that desire.


Well if that is the case why do you have cable tv and a DVR? Just get rid of both and then the Mini is irrelevant and you can enjoy your Roku or what ever device you want to use to get content from some source other than cable tv.

The bottom line is either someone wants a device to watch cable TV and shows they recorded from cable TV on a Premiere 4/XL on additional TVs or they don't.


----------



## DaveDFW

atmuscarella said:


> Well if that is the case why do you have cable tv and a DVR? Just get rid of both and then the Mini is irrelevant and you can enjoy your Roku or what ever device you want to use to get content from some source other than cable tv.


There's no room for disagreement at TCF? Conform or be cast out? 

I'm still a fan of Tivo, just a somewhat jaded fan.


----------



## atmuscarella

DaveDFW said:


> There's no room for disagreement at TCF? Conform or be cast out?
> 
> I'm still a fan of Tivo, just a somewhat jaded fan.


I have no issues with differing opinions. I personally do not have cable TV and will not be purchasing a Mini as I have no need for its function. So for me having a differing opinion on where to get content is certainly a place where differing opinions are interesting/welcome.

But to keep bring up a Roku as some alternative to a Mini is more than misleading, it does not do what a Mini is designed for and they are not interchangeable. What hardware one can choose from is fairly dependent on where one gets there content. The Mini/Premiere 4/XL system is designed for persons who have decided to get their content from Cable TV. When a person considers completive hardware solutions that hardware needs to work with the same content source if it doesn't then it really isn't an alternative.

Just for the record I have a Roku, Google TV via a Logitech Revue, a Western Digital Live TV streaming device, and a Netgear NeoTV streaming device. So I have nothing against streaming media devices. Plus I also have a HTPC with HDHomerun OTA tuners. So I have both alternative content sources and an actual devices that is an alternative/competitor to a TiVo (the HTPC).


----------



## wkearney99

Here's the thing, though, the Roku folks (hell, just about ALL player developers) are showing a lot more effort toward providing access to a lot of different content. Whereas Tivo has all but stagnated. 

I'd certainly love to have a unified interface and have waited patiently for Tivo to get moving on it, but they haven't. Meanwhile other devices are delivering a lot of new content. And now Tivo wants me to buy (and pay monthly for) a new box that only offers streaming from another Tivo? Frankly, I'd rather have a Roku (or someone else's player) add Tivo streaming functionality instead. Because at least then I'd have a prayer of actual innovation being delivered.

The real issue behind all of this is the unified UI and single remote. As in, give the wife something that's always on 'Input 4' and always uses the same remote. No input changing, no swapping remotes or using a programmed universal one. Or, worse, expect their to be a phone/tablet handy (and charged) to control it. It seems like a trivial thing, but it's really key to getting buy-in from regular users. 

Tivo has this with their DVR and some support for online content. But the failure to keep pace with the abundance of online content that's available now makes it very difficult to justify going with new Tivo solutions.


----------



## compnurd

wkearney99 said:


> Here's the thing, though, the Roku folks (hell, just about ALL player developers) are showing a lot more effort toward providing access to a lot of different content. Whereas Tivo has all but stagnated.
> 
> I'd certainly love to have a unified interface and have waited patiently for Tivo to get moving on it, but they haven't. Meanwhile other devices are delivering a lot of new content. And now Tivo wants me to buy (and pay monthly for) a new box that only offers streaming from another Tivo? Frankly, I'd rather have a Roku (or someone else's player) add Tivo streaming functionality instead. Because at least then I'd have a prayer of actual innovation being delivered.
> 
> The real issue behind all of this is the unified UI and single remote. As in, give the wife something that's always on 'Input 4' and always uses the same remote. No input changing, no swapping remotes or using a programmed universal one. Or, worse, expect their to be a phone/tablet handy (and charged) to control it. It seems like a trivial thing, but it's really key to getting buy-in from regular users.
> 
> Tivo has this with their DVR and some support for online content. But the failure to keep pace with the abundance of online content that's available now makes it very difficult to justify going with new Tivo solutions.


I think everyone is really missing the mark with this..... The mini was never designed to be like a Roku or this great media streaming device. It was meant to extend TV to another room.. Like a bedroom or an office or somewhere you dont need a DVR. So you could watch Live TV or your recordings there.

This has been a huge market for Verizon and Direct TV with there Whole home solutions. Direct TV which offers basically no streaming services, is moving there Genie/Whole home system like hotcakes.... You have one main DVR(Genie/Premiere 4) and sub boxes in your other rooms(Mini/Genie Client)

If Tivo can get to the point where they are selling a 6 Tuner DVR to a family with 3 Mini's for bedrooms/offices/kitchens.. then that would be perfect...

Even charging say 12.95 for the Premiere a month, plus 18 dollars for 3 Mini's.. That is only 5 dollars more a month then Direct TV charges for there Whole Home system.. I am not sure what Verizon charges

My Tivo is what it is... an HDDVR and that is what i use it for 95% of the time. We watch mostly live TV and record our shows/ watch them and delete them... anything beyond that is a bonus... That and I like the HD interface. I had my cable companies WHDVR solution and dropped it after 2 months and got 2 Premieres. It was ugly and slow as ****. That and with Tivo and I can do everything i could with Direct TV I could not do with cable. Stream shows to my phone, schedule recordings online... remembering that this is a DVR first


----------



## DigitalDawn

takeagabu said:


> Do you mind telling us when these trainings are set up for? Are they also in anticipation of a release of could they happen after a release?
> 
> I am kinda hoping that the heard grumblings about netflix and amazon and are scrambling to get those in....but thats wishful thinking, and with tivo, wishful thinking is almost always wrong.


Yes, they are set up for March 11 and 12.


----------



## atmuscarella

wkearney99 said:


> Here's the thing, though, the Roku folks (hell, just about ALL player developers) are showing a lot more effort toward providing access to a lot of different content. Whereas Tivo has all but stagnated.
> 
> I'd certainly love to have a unified interface and have waited patiently for Tivo to get moving on it, but they haven't. Meanwhile other devices are delivering a lot of new content. And now Tivo wants me to buy (and pay monthly for) a new box that only offers streaming from another Tivo? Frankly, I'd rather have a Roku (or someone else's player) add Tivo streaming functionality instead. Because at least then I'd have a prayer of actual innovation being delivered.
> 
> The real issue behind all of this is the unified UI and single remote. As in, give the wife something that's always on 'Input 4' and always uses the same remote. No input changing, no swapping remotes or using a programmed universal one. Or, worse, expect their to be a phone/tablet handy (and charged) to control it. It seems like a trivial thing, but it's really key to getting buy-in from regular users.
> 
> Tivo has this with their DVR and some support for online content. But the failure to keep pace with the abundance of online content that's available now makes it very difficult to justify going with new Tivo solutions.


In my opinion in the IP/Internet Streaming area TiVo is not at the top of the pack. In many areas other devices do a much better job of it. However TiVo does have some strong features in this area and I use my TiVos more than any of the streaming media devices I have except maybe my HTPC.

The ability to subscribe to pod casts and have them auto download is very useful and the ability to have HD Rentals from Amazon is great for those of us with slower "high" speed Internet access.

I suspect that TiVo has to do a hardware refresh before it can go much further. Hopefully that will be soon as they really do need to improve in this area.

That said we do not really have any off the shelf appliance type devices out there that combines the abilities of a good DVR with the abilities of the top Streaming devices. A person can get there with a HTPC but they will need to do lots of self setup/configuration.


----------



## slowbiscuit

wkearney99 said:


> Here's the thing, though, the Roku folks (hell, just about ALL player developers) are showing a lot more effort toward providing access to a lot of different content. Whereas Tivo has all but stagnated.


What, you're not excited about the new Web Video Launchpad? 
Or the craptacularly slow YouTube and Netflix apps?

Seriously, I think they know they have a dog in the current hardware given the questionable choice to run Flash on it, so even if they want to do anything more it's probably not going to be decent until S5s come out (and that's a big if given their track record for net apps).

But they will finally catch up to WMC, some cable, and the satellite DVRs when the Mini comes out, and that's more important to most than what new crappy app runs on the box.


----------



## innocentfreak

compnurd said:


> I think everyone is really missing the mark with this..... The mini was never designed to be like a Roku or this great media streaming device. It was meant to extend TV to another room.. Like a bedroom or an office or somewhere you dont need a DVR. So you could watch Live TV or your recordings there.


This is where I think they made the mistake though. It should be both.

As an extender I have no use for it. As a Roku replacement that also streams from TiVos I am in the purchase column. It could even be an actual Roku that TiVo skinned with their own UI.


----------



## compnurd

innocentfreak said:


> This is where I think they made the mistake though. It should be both.
> 
> As an extender I have no use for it. As a Roku replacement that also streams from TiVos I am in the purchase column. It could even be an actual Roku that TiVo skinned with their own UI.


You may have no use but for the many homes they are trying to get into, this can get them in


----------



## innocentfreak

compnurd said:


> You may have no use but for the many homes they are trying to get into, this can get them in


I don't disagree. I just think as a Roku replacement it also works then in people's home who don't have a TiVo. As a result you have a larger potential base of customers who also have the opportunity to convert to 4 and XL4 users.

As it is now you would already have to be considering TiVo for this to bring you over. Those people who aren't considering TiVo like my sister who has Rokus in every room aren't going to start looking at TiVo because an extender is now available.


----------



## Dan203

I think part of the reason services have been slow to develop apps for the TiVo platform is because the hardware in the current gen Premiere units is so sh*tty. The Mini uses a much better chip and I presume the next gen TiVo will too. That should encourage more developers to create apps for the TiVo platform. Although another reason they may be shying away is TiVos strange policies when it comes to their developer program. Basically when you write an app for the TiVo and submit it to TiVo they own it and they get to decide if they want to deploy it or not. So you could spent a lot of time writing an app and TiVo could reject it outright without any reasoning or recourse. At least the app stores for iTunes and Windows 8 have specific guidelines and they'll usually tell you why they're rejecting an app when they do. TiVo can reject an app for any reason they choose and they don't even have to tell you why.


----------



## moyekj

Dan203 said:


> Basically when you write an app for the TiVo and submit it to TiVo they own it and they get to decide if they want to deploy it or not. So you could spent a lot of time writing an app and TiVo could reject it outright without any reasoning or recourse.


 Before the (pitiful) developer program was launched I found a way to launch Flash apps via RPC that I think still works and hence could bypass the need for official approval. However, the Flash kit is so limited that one is better off using older HME kit anyway, so it's kind of pointless.


----------



## Bigg

atmuscarella said:


> In my opinion in the IP/Internet Streaming area TiVo is not at the top of the pack. In many areas other devices do a much better job of it. However TiVo does have some strong features in this area and I use my TiVos more than any of the streaming media devices I have except maybe my HTPC.
> 
> The ability to subscribe to pod casts and have them auto download is very useful and the ability to have HD Rentals from Amazon is great for those of us with slower "high" speed Internet access.
> 
> I suspect that TiVo has to do a hardware refresh before it can go much further. Hopefully that will be soon as they really do need to improve in this area.
> 
> That said we do not really have any off the shelf appliance type devices out there that combines the abilities of a good DVR with the abilities of the top Streaming devices. A person can get there with a HTPC but they will need to do lots of self setup/configuration.


TiVo has the best shot at it right now, although it would be interesting to see what would happen if Roku made a headless DVR box with 6 CableCard tuners in it...

I tried WMC, and it was a failure. It's hard to set up, the interface sucks, and it isn't even a good DVR other than for raw hardware specs. Someone could make great HTPC software, but no one has, as it's a small market.

I am finding that AirPlay is immensely powerful, and is a way to really bring content to many screens in the house, since you just change what TV you're outputting to on your iPad. I think the combo of TiVo Mini + Apple TV may be a VERY potent one, as the iPad can AirPlay just about every content source possible, and provides a fantastic content browsing interface.

TiVo tried to do what Roku did, but didn't execute as well. That being said, they still have the inherent advantage that they can cross-search cable and everything else, and a few minor perks like 1080p Amazon, because apparently Roku can't handle 1080p. Riiiiiight.

WHAT IF TiVo were to launch something like the Mini to compete head to head with the Roku for streaming at the $99 price point to get into houses, and then do an upsell by requiring the license to get access to the TiVo DVRs? They would have to make a good developer platform, however.

Roku to me at this point, while a nice product with a fantastic remote (if only because it's RF and works 100% of the time unlike IR) is basically redundant to everything else at this point. Most of the content it has can either be done through a Blu-Ray player or smart TV, or it can be done via AirPlay on the iPad. In fact, the only thing I can think of that can't be done through AirPlay is VUDU, which would only be used on a main TV that would have VUDU itself or on a Blu-ray player anyways. I'm not getting rid of my Roku, but I can't see a case to recommend it to anyone else. A DVR + Blu-Ray + Apple TV makes a lot more sense.


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## jmatero

Even with a new premiere I uses the AppleTV for movies and Netflix. I can find... And begin watching... Something on Netflix on AppleTV by the time the app even launches on Tivo.


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## Dan203

I recently bought a Samsung smart TV. I use it for everything now. Vudu, Netflix, HBOGo, etc... No need for a separate box or remote, it's all built right into the TV. Although if TiVo had all those services, and they didn't run like molasses, I'd rather use it instead. The unified search really does make it easier to find things. But there is no way I'm ever using my XBox, PS3 or Wii for any of those things again. Nor do I have any need to buy a Roku or Apple TV.


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## wkearney99

compnurd said:


> I think everyone is really missing the mark with this..... The mini was never designed to be like a Roku or this great media streaming device. It was meant to extend TV to another room.. Like a bedroom or an office or somewhere you dont need a DVR. So you could watch Live TV or your recordings there.


Yeah, well, and once upon a time some feedbag maker probably said the same thing about those infernal contraptions, the automobile. Tivo's lame approach to a wider app & content market just smacks of the horse-drawn carriage in the face of gasoline.

Yeah, you can still ride that one trick pony but pretty soon you're left in the dust, shoveling up your own poop.


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## compnurd

wkearney99 said:


> Yeah, well, and once upon a time some feedbag maker probably said the same thing about those infernal contraptions, the automobile. Tivo's lame approach to a wider app & content market just smacks of the horse-drawn carriage in the face of gasoline.
> 
> Yeah, you can still ride that one trick pony but pretty soon you're left in the dust, shoveling up your own poop.


Well tell that to every major cable/SAT provider also


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## atmuscarella

wkearney99 said:


> Yeah, well, and once upon a time some feedbag maker probably said the same thing about those infernal contraptions, the automobile. Tivo's lame approach to a wider app & content market just smacks of the horse-drawn carriage in the face of gasoline.
> 
> Yeah, you can still ride that one trick pony but pretty soon you're left in the dust, shoveling up your own poop.


I think the Stand Alone IP/Internet Streaming devices (Roku etc.) are in allot more trouble than TiVo. This doesn't mean I think TiVo shouldn't be working hard on improving their IP/Internet Streaming features - I certainly do. But the reality is if someone buys a new TV, Blu-ray player, Gaming console, and yes even a TiVo DVR they get IP/Internet Streaming that is good enough for many (most?) people. Give these devices another generation or 2 of updates and there will be zero reason for Stand Alone IP/Streaming devices. I think most of us are going to want/need DVRs for allot longer time period.


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## magnus

wkearney99 said:


> Yeah, well, and once upon a time some feedbag maker probably said the same thing about those infernal contraptions, the automobile. Tivo's lame approach to a wider app & content market just smacks of the horse-drawn carriage in the face of gasoline.
> 
> Yeah, you can still ride that one trick pony but pretty soon you're left in the dust, shoveling up your own poop.


I agree. Tivo is missing the mark if they don't think that folks want the mini to also replace or work like a Roku. And for the price tag... It needs to do a heck of a lot more.


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## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> I think the Stand Alone IP/Internet Streaming devices (Roku etc.) are in allot more trouble than TiVo. This doesn't mean I think TiVo shouldn't be working hard on improving their IP/Internet Streaming features - I certainly do. But the reality is if someone buys a new TV, Blu-ray player, Gaming console, and yes even a TiVo DVR they get IP/Internet Streaming that is good enough for many (most?) people. Give these devices another generation or 2 of updates and there will be zero reason for Stand Alone IP/Streaming devices. I think most of us are going to want/need DVRs for allot longer time period.


Except in a TV they typically charge a premium to have those apps. So the price premium can be $150 to $300 or even more.
It's much cheaper to get a stand alone device. Plus if there is an issue you can easily replace it, unlike if it's in the TV. As far as a BD player, most people still use DVD players. Are these apps also available in DVD players? And the gaming machines use 40 times or more the power than a Roku uses. Plus they are much louder since they have a fan running in them. While the stand alone media players don't typically have a fan.


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## slowbiscuit

magnus said:


> I agree. Tivo is missing the mark if they don't think that folks want the mini to also replace or work like a Roku. And for the price tag... It needs to do a heck of a lot more.


Totally agree there, but we've all seen how bad most of the Tivo apps are. Hardware limited or not, some of them have some pretty bad UIs, like YouTube. The only one I like is Pandora, and that is a basic app functionality-wise.

Bottom line is don't count on Tivo to deliver anything decent over the net, no matter what hardware it runs on.


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## compnurd

Again.... you guys are totally missing the market here... this is not meant to be a Roku/Streaming appliance. This is meant to break into the whole home and compete with Cable companies and Sat Companies


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## slowbiscuit

No one is missing the market here - it's a separate, valid question about why it can't be both given the cost and the highly dubious service fee.


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## davezatz

compnurd said:


> This is meant to break into the whole home and compete with Cable companies and Sat Companies


TiVo IS the cable company. Their revenues are higher through retail than say partners like RCN or Suddenlink, especially when they launch unsubsidized hardware like the Mini, and that's why they haven't shut us down. But the thing is, if every TiVo also requires a collocated Roku or Apple TV, it's easier for most to just stick with the cable company's non-TiVo DVR.


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## overFEDEXed

FYI;

I just ordered my two Mini's from Bestbuy.
They have them in the warehouse, of course.
Pickup date is Friday the 15th or sooner, he said.

Maybe they will have them available somewhere else sooner, but I went ahead and ordered them anyway.


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## magnus

compnurd said:


> Again.... you guys are totally missing the market here... this is not meant to be a Roku/Streaming appliance. This is meant to break into the whole home and compete with Cable companies and Sat Companies


And again, I think Tivo is missing it here. They could easily sell these things to a lot more folks (me included)... If they treated this as the product that it should be or charged a decent price for what it is.


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## aaronwt

overFEDEXed said:


> FYI;
> 
> I just ordered my two Mini's from Bestbuy.
> They have them in the warehouse, of course.
> Pickup date is Friday the 15th or sooner, he said.
> 
> Maybe they will have them available somewhere else sooner, but I went ahead and ordered them anyway.


How were you cable to order them?


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## teklock

aaronwt said:


> How were you cable to order them?


it's in the other threads here..


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## aaronwt

I must have missed it, otherwise I would have tried to order one.

EDIT: I see. that's why people were asking for the SKU. I guess I'll wait until they are in the store. I'm also waiting for the new Sony 3D BD player to show up next week as well. So I'm hoping I can get both at the same time.


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## atmuscarella

aaronwt said:


> Except in a TV they typically charge a premium to have those apps. So the price premium can be $150 to $300 or even more.
> It's much cheaper to get a stand alone device. Plus if there is an issue you can easily replace it, unlike if it's in the TV. As far as a BD player, most people still use DVD players. Are these apps also available in DVD players? And the gaming machines use 40 times or more the power than a Roku uses. Plus they are much louder since they have a fan running in them. While the stand alone media players don't typically have a fan.


My point wasn't that you would buy another device instead of a Roku type device it was that you would already be buying one for other reasons. Case in point I just helped my mother purchase a blu-ray play. I got her a Panasonic DMP-BDT220, it cost less than $100 (actually $80 now) is a CNet top pick has Wi-Fi and has an excellent set of streaming apps that would be more than enough for most people. Plus you can not buy a top tier TV without IP/Internet Streaming. Samsung even allows for Processor module upgrades on some of their TVs now to assure you can upgrade them to work with future stream apps. So for people who do buy new TVs, new blu-ray, new gaming consoles, etc. there is less and less reason to look at stand alone streaming players.


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## overFEDEXed

aaronwt said:


> How were you cable to order them?


Yes,

Thanks to cmonroe for posting the SKU and Model number. I didn't have it the other day, or I would have ordered then.

My store gets a truck each Thursday and the rep said call him then.


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## Bigg

Yeah, I don't think Roku has a very bright future, even with all the apps that they have, as it's basically impossible not to have 2-3 or more devices all with app platforms before you even get to dedicated devices. AppleTV has a very bright future because of AirPlay, even if the content is available elsewhere- the interface of using an iPad to select content and fling it up on the TV is second to none, and works with a much wider variety of content, including YouTube and Podcasts than other platforms support or support well.


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## Dan203

Bigg said:


> Yeah, I don't think Roku has a very bright future, even with all the apps that they have, as it's basically impossible not to have 2-3 or more devices all with app platforms before you even get to dedicated devices. AppleTV has a very bright future because of AirPlay, even if the content is available elsewhere- the interface of using an iPad to select content and fling it up on the TV is second to none, and works with a much wider variety of content, including YouTube and Podcasts than other platforms support or support well.


My Samsung TV has something akin to AirPlay. I used it the other day to watch a YouTube video I found on my iPad through my TV. I'm not sure support is quite as universal as AirPlay, since it's not built into the OS, but my point is there are other similar technologies out there and if one takes hold in the Android market it could push the proprietary AirPlay to the side. (people always prefer open standards when available)

I really think that if TiVo puts a fast enough chip in the next gen Premiere, and comes up with a better way to deal with their developer program, they could end up with just as many apps as your typical smart TV. Especially since Samsung also uses Adobe Air and they have apps for pretty much every major service.


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## compnurd

magnus said:


> And again, I think Tivo is missing it here. They could easily sell these things to a lot more folks (me included)... If they treated this as the product that it should be or charged a decent price for what it is.


Cost for a HD Extender for MVR from my cable company is 11.95 a month.. Which is double the price the mini is a month....

Even with the 99 dollar up front.. it is still cheaper for me to buy a P4 and Minis and pay monthly fee's then my cable companys Multi Room Solution Nevermind buying lifetime.

And unless you are getting new equipment from Direct TV... It is also cheaper then there whole home solution. Both in Main STB(349) cost and STB Extenders(99) (plus 25 dollar a month system fee)

And as i am watching this I am seeing a new Direct TV commercial telling people they only need 1 DVR for there home and you can use genie clients


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## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> My Samsung TV has something akin to AirPlay. I used it the other day to watch a YouTube video I found on my iPad through my TV. I'm not sure support is quite as universal as AirPlay, since it's not built into the OS, but my point is there are other similar technologies out there and if one takes hold in the Android market it could push the proprietary AirPlay to the side. (people always prefer open standards when available)
> 
> I really think that if TiVo puts a fast enough chip in the next gen Premiere, and comes up with a better way to deal with their developer program, they could end up with just as many apps as your typical smart TV. Especially since Samsung also uses Adobe Air and they have apps for pretty much every major service.


The thing is that Airplay supports pretty much everything on an iPad, not just certain things built into another system.

TiVo could easily attract developer attention, especially if they came out with a streamer box that doesn't require a TiVo DVR (gateway drug). TiVo has the best UI, and is the only system that's truly 100% user intuitive.


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## magnus

compnurd said:


> Cost for a HD Extender for MVR from my cable company is 11.95 a month.. Which is double the price the mini is a month....
> 
> Even with the 99 dollar up front.. it is still cheaper for me to buy a P4 and Minis and pay monthly fee's then my cable companys Multi Room Solution Nevermind buying lifetime.
> 
> And unless you are getting new equipment from Direct TV... It is also cheaper then there whole home solution. Both in Main STB(349) cost and STB Extenders(99) (plus 25 dollar a month system fee)
> 
> And as i am watching this I am seeing a new Direct TV commercial telling people they only need 1 DVR for there home and you can use genie clients


Yep, I'm not arguing that it might be worth it to some folks. I just think it could be more (feature wise) and when you compare it to the Roku and what this box should be then it just does not add up for some folks. For me, it's never going to make sense until it can do a lot more in regards to streaming other content. I'm waiting till it comes down in price and supports 2 tuner Premieres.


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## compnurd

magnus said:


> Yep, I'm not arguing that it might be worth it to some folks. I just think it could be more (feature wise) and when you compare it to the Roku and what this box should be then it just does not add up for some folks. For me, it's never going to make sense until it can do a lot more in regards to streaming other content. I'm waiting till it comes down in price and supports 2 tuner Premieres.


And see we are not big streamers. I have a netflix account but it really sucks...

I agree those who Stream and who are cord cutters.. yes this does nothing..

But for the same target audience Verizon/Direct TV/Comcast/Cablevision/Dish are going after which is the 1 DVR and clients to watch TV on.. this is it.. spot on and very cost effective compared to most cable whole home solutions


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## Bigg

compnurd said:


> And see we are not big streamers. I have a netflix account but it really sucks...
> 
> I agree those who Stream and who are cord cutters.. yes this does nothing..
> 
> But for the same target audience Verizon/Direct TV/Comcast/Cablevision/Dish are going after which is the 1 DVR and clients to watch TV on.. this is it.. spot on and very cost effective compared to most cable whole home solutions


Correct. It is competing against the MSO's box, and against the Ceton Echo on the enthusiast end. The Mini makes a good whole-home DVR system a lot more reasonable, since it cuts out not only having to buy a $650 TiVo for each TV, but also the CableCard, something that up until now has only been possible with MCE and it's terrible interface.


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## Austin Bike

There had been rumors of a next gen Apple TV that would be able to run iOS apps (to compete with things like roku). If you can run the TiVo app on the Apple TV, the mini is dead in the water. 

Will be interesting to see what happens. All indications from a hardware perspective are that the next generation will be pretty similar to the current model, so that *could* mean some software enhancements could take center stage. Or not (and apple falls behind).


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## compnurd

Austin Bike said:


> There had been rumors of a next gen Apple TV that would be able to run iOS apps (to compete with things like roku). If you can run the TiVo app on the Apple TV, the mini is dead in the water.
> 
> Will be interesting to see what happens. All indications from a hardware perspective are that the next generation will be pretty similar to the current model, so that *could* mean some software enhancements could take center stage. Or not (and apple falls behind).


Why is the Mini Dead in the Water? you are then assuming someone wants a Apple Product... Then you now have a Stream Product and must have a recording on your main unit everytime you want to watch Live TV


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## Bigg

compnurd said:


> Why is the Mini Dead in the Water? you are then assuming someone wants a Apple Product... Then you now have a Stream Product and must have a recording on your main unit everytime you want to watch Live TV


I think it would depend on the control lag. Also, while the quality of transcoding the MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 would be fine for a small TV, i.e. kitchen, it would be terrible for a large TV.


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## tbielowicz

Just ordered two units from my local Best Buy. They expect them in on Wednesday, March 13th. Could that be the launch day?

Here is the Best Buy extended warranty information. You have 15 days after receipt to elect to purchase.

2 yr - $13.99
4 yr - $19.99

The 4 yr doesn't seem like a bad deal at all. What do you guys think?


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## Davelnlr_

$20 extended warranty on a $99 box? Guess it depends if it would include transferring lifetime service to the replacement or not.


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## Dan203

Austin Bike said:


> If you can run the TiVo app on the Apple TV, the mini is dead in the water.


How do you figure? Apple TV = $100, TiVo Stream = $130 so all in you're at $230 which is only $20 cheaper then a Mini. And with a Stream/ATV combo all video is converted to 720p with 2ch AAC audio, only trick play options are IR and 30 second skip, and "live TV" is not really live TV it's a macro that starts a recording and then streams that recording.

Unless you already have a TiVo Stream for other purposes, or need to buy a new Apple TV for some other reason, the Mini is clearly the superior choice if you're only desire is to watch TiVo shows on another TV.


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## Arcady

If Apple decides to allow third-party apps on the AppleTV, and if TiVo rewrites the app to run on it, and if you already have a Stream and an AppleTV, then it would work, but still be a half-baked solution.

Remember, when Apple adds a platform with a different screen size, you need a new version of the app to use the new platform's native screen size. When they added the iPad, apps needed to be redone to add 1024x768 or they would run with pixel-doubling from the old iPhone/iPod version. For support on an AppleTV, the app would need to be re-written to support 1280x720 (720p) or 1920x1080 (1080i/p) and what incentive does TiVo have to do that, when they want you to buy a Mini in the first place?

See how many times I wrote "if" above?


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## Austin Bike

Dan203 said:


> How do you figure? Apple TV = $100, TiVo Stream = $130 so all in you're at $230 which is only $20 cheaper then a Mini. And with a Stream/ATV combo all video is converted to 720p with 2ch AAC audio, only trick play options are IR and 30 second skip, and "live TV" is not really live TV it's a macro that starts a recording and then streams that recording.
> 
> Unless you already have a TiVo Stream for other purposes, or need to buy a new Apple TV for some other reason, the Mini is clearly the superior choice if you're only desire is to watch TiVo shows on another TV.


Yes, I had forgotten that you need to buy a stream as well. But, stream + mini vs stream + Apple TV, you'd probably not consider the mini.


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## compnurd

Austin Bike said:


> Yes, I had forgotten that you need to buy a stream as well. But, stream + mini vs stream + Apple TV, you'd probably not consider the mini.


It will probably look like **** blown up on a large screen TV


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## Austin Bike

Actually not. The content looks the same on my iPad and my Apple TV. 1080p.


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## Bigg

Austin Bike said:


> Actually not. The content looks the same on my iPad and my Apple TV. 1080p.


Yeah, content can look very good depending on where it's coming from. TWiT looks great on the big screen. It's like 4mbps 720p, but then again they're just sitting there talking.


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## sbiller

http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-mini/index.html


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## jfh3

sbiller said:


> http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-mini/index.html


But the TiVo store is down for maintenance, so you can't actually buy one yet.


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## steve614

jfh3 said:


> But the TiVo store is down for maintenance, so you can't actually buy one yet.


Did you actually click through and try to buy one?
I got to the point of entering a payment method, but since I don't really need one, I didn't go any further.


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## Bwatford141

steve614 said:


> Did you actually click through and try to buy one?
> I got to the point of entering a payment method, but since I don't really need one, I didn't go any further.


It was down for maintenance about 20 minutes ago, but its up and running now.


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## DavidAsher

Bwatford141 said:


> It was down for maintenance about 20 minutes ago, but its up and running now.


Yep. Just ordered two. Shows up in order history.


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## sbiller

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-03/tivo-mini-review/


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## JAaronT

DavidAsher said:


> Yep. Just ordered two. Shows up in order history.


Moi aussi.


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## jfh3

steve614 said:


> Did you actually click through and try to buy one?
> I got to the point of entering a payment method, but since I don't really need one, I didn't go any further.


As others have said, it's working now. Just ordered a lifetime box. We'll see if I get the shipment from TiVo or Best Buy first. I may just keep all three (the max I can ever see using) or just pick up one from the BB order when it comes in.


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## moyekj

sbiller said:


> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-03/tivo-mini-review/


 Curiously, the video doesn't show or mention ToDo list or Season Pass management and tivo.com doesn't have any screenshots of those for the Mini either, and neither does the TiVo video on the Mini.


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## UCLABB

Just got my order for one in.


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## aaronwt

So now you can order the TiVo Mini from TiVo.com? What happened to a launch next week?


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## UCLABB

aaronwt said:


> So now you can order the TiVo Mini from TiVo.com? What happened to a launch next week?


Why wait for the press release?


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## Austin Bike

aaronwt said:


> So now you can order the TiVo Mini from TiVo.com? What happened to a launch next week?


Depending on how their website works, they may need to "turn on" ordering at a certain time every day. For many ecommerce sites this is early in the morning when the traffic is low. You can push a press release (content) any time you want, but store updates could require a database update which is more invasive.


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## sbiller

Austin Bike said:


> Depending on how their website works, they may need to "turn on" ordering at a certain time every day. For many ecommerce sites this is early in the morning when the traffic is low. You can push a press release (content) any time you want, but store updates could require a database update which is more invasive.


I suspect that we might see a Press Release this morning at 9a (ET).


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## BigJimOutlaw

Press release is out. Available now on tivo.com. March 17th for retail (officially).


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## rmpearl

So wait until the 17th and get it from BBY or try and order it from Tivo? I am guessing they will get here the same time. It seems that the BBY Service Plan is cheaper than Tivo's and adds an extra year but w/ out a hard drive I would imagine there would be a limited amount of stuff that could go wrong with this box.


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