# No way to disable clipping?



## Dan203

I always disable clipping because I would rather the TiVo record a later airing of a program then clip the start/end. I always prioritize my SPs so that shows that only air once, like network shows, are at the top so it only effects cable shows that repeat anyway.

However I just setup my Bolt and I don't see anywhere to disable that option. And I know it's still active because I changed the options on one of my 1Ps and it threw up a warning about an episode being clipped. 

Am I missing the options somewhere? Or is it gone and this is always active now?


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## sangs

Dan203 said:


> I always disable clipping because I would rather the TiVo record a later airing of a program then clip the start/end. I always prioritize my SPs so that shows that only air once, like network shows, are at the top so it only effects cable shows that repeat anyway.
> 
> However I just setup my Bolt and I don't see anywhere to disable that option. And I know it's still active because I changed the options on one of my 1Ps and it threw up a warning about an episode being clipped.
> 
> Am I missing the options somewhere? Or is it gone and this is always active now?


I was pouring through the menus for this as well and was not able to find it anywhere. An oversight, or a radical change in approach?


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## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> I always disable clipping because I would rather the TiVo record a later airing of a program then clip the start/end. I always prioritize my SPs so that shows that only air once, like network shows, are at the top so it only effects cable shows that repeat anyway.
> 
> However I just setup my Bolt and I don't see anywhere to disable that option. And I know it's still active because I changed the options on one of my 1Ps and it threw up a warning about an episode being clipped.
> 
> Am I missing the options somewhere? Or is it gone and this is always active now?


 Crap!! I did not notice this. CLipping is one thing I hate. If any part of a show isn't recorded, I won't watch it and I need to purchase it from a streaming service. Hopefully this will change so clipping can be turned off.


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## CoxInPHX

It will be interesting to see if this omission gets passed to the Premiere and Roamio.
I see many complaints if it does.

If TiVo ever perfected and released the back-to-back overlapping recordings using the same tuner, that would help quite a bit.


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## ej42137

Unfortunately this sounds like something TiVo would do in the interests of simplifying the interface, as they did with One Pass. I hope that's not the case!


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## astrohip

I'd like to hear from TiVo on this. I would find it very troubling if clipping was not user controlled. I never ever use clipping, and like others have said, won't watch a show that is missing parts.


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## mattack

I have never been able to reproduce it, but even on my roamio pro with clipping disabled, once in a RARE while I have seen a show clipped.. Rather, the "padding" is clipped (which of course can actually mean some of the show is clipped for the shows that actually go out of their allotted time slot.)

Whenever I've seen this, I end up checking my SP/OP and clipping pref, and they were always set right (had padding, clipping turned off).


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## krkaufman

ej42137 said:


> Unfortunately this sounds like something TiVo would do in the interests of simplifying the interface, as they did with One Pass. I hope that's not the case!


That's exactly what I began thinking/fearing when I saw Dan's post. And that TiVo has had clipping/Overlap Protection enabled by default tells me they have a greater fondness for it than I do, which is also worrying.

Here's hoping someone's found a solution before I've read to the bottom of the thread.  (alas...)


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## ej42137

krkaufman said:


> That's exactly what I began thinking/fearing when I saw Dan's post. And that TiVo has had clipping/Overlap Protection enabled by default tells me they have a greater fondness for it than I do, which is also worrying.
> 
> Here's hoping someone's found a solution before I've read to the bottom of the thread.  (alas...)


We can pad our recordings by 6 minutes. For me that's easy, I just add one more minute to my One Passes. But people who don't pad won't like that solution. But people that don't pad probably don't get hit by clipping very often anyway, only when the networks are stunting the start times to keep you from changing channels.


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## krkaufman

ej42137 said:


> We can pad our recordings by 6 minutes. For me that's easy, I just add one more minute to my One Passes.


I am confused. How are you padding by 6 minutes by adding 1 minute to your OnePasses?

And wouldn't any such padding increase the risk of a lower priority show's beginning being clipped by 6 minutes, on a TiVo with Overlap Protection (clipping) enabled?


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## atmuscarella

ej42137 said:


> We can pad our recordings by 6 minutes. For me that's easy, I just add one more minute to my One Passes. But people who don't pad won't like that solution. But people that don't pad probably don't get hit by clipping very often anyway, only when the networks are stunting the start times to keep you from changing channels.





krkaufman said:


> I am confused. How are you padding by 6 minutes by adding 1 minute to your OnePasses?
> 
> And wouldn't any such padding increase the risk of a lower priority show's beginning being clipped by 6 minutes, on a TiVo with Overlap Protection (clipping) enabled?


Yu can not pad a shows start or end time by 6 minutes it is either 5 or then 10 minutes.

Padding a shows start or end time 10 minutes should result in show before or after it will not be recorded as clipping only happens if 5 of less minutes of the show has to be clipped. Least that is my understanding how clipping works.


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## cherry ghost

When you pad the ending of a 7:00 show by 5 minutes and the start of a 7:30 show by 1 minute, you get a 6 minute overlap.


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## krkaufman

cherry ghost said:


> When you pad the ending of a 7:00 show by 5 minutes and the start of a 7:30 show by 1 minute, you get a 6 minute overlap.


Assuming they both are scheduled to stop/start right at 7:30, right? What happens if the 7:30 show is scheduled to start at 7:32, one week, for some reason?


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## cherry ghost

krkaufman said:


> Assuming they both are scheduled to stop/start right at 7:30, right? What happens if the 7:30 show is scheduled to start at 7:32, one week, for some reason?


Then the 7:00 show would be scheduled to stop at 7:32. Still a 6 minute overlap.

ETA - I was assuming same channel, so you are correct it could be a problem.

Could do 3 minutes on the start


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## krkaufman

cherry ghost said:


> Then the 7:00 show would be scheduled to stop at 7:32. Still a 6 minute overlap.


Only if they're on the same channel. Or does Overlap Protection apply only to back-to-back recordings on the same channel?


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## cherry ghost

krkaufman said:


> Only if they're on the same channel. Or does Overlap Protection apply only to back-to-back recordings on the same channel?


You're right, I edited my post.


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## krkaufman

Ugh, I'm having flashbacks now, to one of my gripes with W7MC... where a bug in the WMC scheduler necessitated forced post-padding of all shows by 10 minutes, to avoid a similar clipping issue (IIRC). It was one of the reasons motivating our move to Roamio.


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## TiVoSupport_Sarah

TiVocustomers, We are currently investigating this issue with not being able to disable the clipping of the recordings. Can you please private message me with your TiVo service number off of the Bolt so that we can add your information to the list of TiVo boxes that are experiencing this issue?


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## krkaufman

I posed the following question to TiVo's Facebook presence...
Me: _Hi, I'm hoping you can clear-up a question re: a feature of the new BOLT.

Has Overlap Protection changed w BOLT? Can it be disabled? If changed, will the same change come to previous TiVo models -- or, more importantly, what is the address of the castle we need storm to prevent this change from propagating?

More details here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=532732_​
... and received the following response:
TiVo: _Hi Karl! Good question! We are currently looking into this, as it does not seem to be an intentional change to have Overlap protection missing. Once we have some more information we'll let you know._​
I wasn't sure from their statement that they understood the issue to be that Overlap Protection was alive and well but that the ability to disable Overlap Protection was removed, so I sent some add'l feedback their way:
Me: _Just to be clear, Overlap Protection has been verified to be active in the new BOLT. The issue is that the ability to DISABLE Overlap Protection appears to have been removed from the Settings UI.

Many users prefer to disable the Overlap Protection feature, enabled by default in previous TIVo versions._​For good measure, I also noted the documentation difference between the BOLT and Roamio Viewer's Guides.

Am now awaiting further feedback.

edit.s. Quick update from TiVo...
TiVo: _Right, it's the menu option which allows control over it that we can't seem to find._​... so it's good news that they *are* on the same page re: the issue, and are digging into it.


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## krkaufman

*Please see TiVoSupport_Sarah's post* *ABOVE* requesting TSNs for affected BOLTs.


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## ej42137

I'm glad see you people finally figured out what I meant while I was asleep. I already pad four minutes at the end and one at the beginning; adding one more minute at the beginning or five at the end would accomplish what I want, which is not to clip, ever, and always get the entire program. Every week or so I review the To-Do list for conflicts on the broadcast networks and move any to my alternate DVR. If I miss one, I buy the episode from Amazon or Apple TV, or Torrent as a last result. I try not to do that very often, because watching episodes without commercial breaks or crap on the bottom third tempts me to watch *everything* that way. If I did that I'd have no reason to own my beloved TiVos or visit these informative forums.


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## Dan203

The problem with that is the To Do List does not indicate which shows will be clipped. (that I can see) So while you can deal with conflicts manually you may not realize a show is getting clipped until it's too late.


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## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> The problem with that is the To Do List does not indicate which shows will be clipped. (that I can see) So while you can deal with conflicts manually you may not realize a show is getting clipped until it's too late.


Exactly what I was wondering... do "To be clipped" shows get a different icon in the To Do List, similar to the red "*X*"? Maybe they could simply alter the color of the "to be recorded" *light-blue checkmarks ✔* for shows that will be clipped to *yellow ✔* or *orange ✔*?

Though what I *need* is for them to not force this feature on us. (But if they're gonna have the feature, then when it's enabled, as you've highlighted, they need to provide a visual cue in the To Do List to indicate shows that will be clipped.)


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## HerronScott

Dan203 said:


> The problem with that is the To Do List does not indicate which shows will be clipped. (that I can see) So while you can deal with conflicts manually you may not realize a show is getting clipped until it's too late.


I'm pretty sure the old SD interface (or at least on the S3) had something in the ToDo List to indicate a show would be clipped. Surprised this would not be carried over to the HD interface?

Scott


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## Dan203

HerronScott said:


> I'm pretty sure the old SD interface (or at least on the S3) had something in the ToDo List to indicate a show would be clipped. Surprised this would not be carried over to the HD interface?
> 
> Scott


The SD interface would put an asterisks next to shows that would be clipped. As far as I can tell there is no indication in the HDUI.


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## krkaufman

TiVoSupport_Sarah said:


> TiVocustomers, We are currently investigating this issue with not being able to disable the clipping of the recordings. Can you please private message me with your TiVo service number off of the Bolt so that we can add your information to the list of TiVo boxes that are experiencing this issue?


Sarah, if you're still listening, have you been provided a sufficient number of TSNs (or any!)?


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## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> The SD interface would put an asterisks next to shows that would be clipped. As far as I can tell there is no indication in the HDUI.


Heh, I was thinking an additional column for an exclamation mark, right next to the checkmarks, might work, but figured they'd want to keep the clutter down. (Though my alternative of cryptic color-coding of the checkmarks isn't optimal for those will difficulty differentiating colors.)


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## TiVoSupport_Sarah

krkaufman, I have not had a bunch of TSN's. I am hoping to get more. I have associated all that I have received at this point. If anyone else with a Bolt with the menu option below missing, please private message me your TiVo service number off the TiVo box. 

TiVo central> Settings&Messages> User preferences > Overlap Protection.


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## Dan203

Is that an option you can hide from you end?


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## eric102

PM sent


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## rsday75

TiVoSupport_Sarah said:


> krkaufman, I have not had a bunch of TSN's. I am hoping to get more. I have associated all that I have received at this point. If anyone else with a Bolt with the menu option below missing, please private message me your TiVo service number off the TiVo box.
> 
> TiVo central> Settings&Messages> User preferences > Overlap Protection.


I want to send mine, but I am new here and only have like 4 posts.


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## krkaufman

Well, I hope you get enough TSNs to get the issue figured out before the next software update rolls down to the Roamios. x x


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## raqball

I sent you a PM with my TSN as well as it's missing from my unit..


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## BigJimOutlaw

This impacts everyone with 20.5.4. Collecting TSN's isn't necessary unless it's like a signature collection to demand its return.


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## ej42137

Dan203 said:


> The problem with that is the To Do List does not indicate which shows will be clipped. (that I can see) So while you can deal with conflicts manually you may not realize a show is getting clipped until it's too late.


If you were responding to my post, the clipping setting page tells us that clipping will only happen if the overlap is 5 minutes or less. I have one minute start pad and four minutes end pad for a total of five minutes pad right now. If I were to add one minute to the front pad or one minute to the back pad I'd have an overlap of at least six minutes, even if the start times were stunted by the network. (I'd probably change my end pad to ten minutes just in case the setting screen description for overlap protection is not completely accurate.) So no clips should ever happen to me on my Bolt Pro, just conflicts.










However, it looks like TiVo Sarah is considering this a bug. Except why do they need any TSNs to check this thing? One would think it would happen on every Bolt and would be quickly reproducible on TiVo Sarah's own unit. Or at least the Bolt sitting in the quality assurance area. Does she need multiple TSNs to prove customers care about the problem?

If you weren't responding to my post, *Emily LaTella*.


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## Dan203

But if things move around and are not in the exact same order you expected them to be then stuff might still get clipped. Unless you pad everything by 1 minute at the start and 5 at the end, then I guess it wouldn't matter. But that's a lot of work of you have a lot of 1Ps. (I have like 130)


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## ej42137

Dan203 said:


> But if things move around and are not in the exact same order you expected them to be then stuff might still get clipped. Unless you pad everything by 1 minute at the start and 5 at the end, then I guess it wouldn't matter. But that's a lot of work of you have a lot of 1Ps. (I have like 130)


Sorry, I guess I was not clear. Changing the padding on *all* my One Passes is exactly what I am proposing, hence the order of the One Passes would not be a material factor. When I get my new Bolt Pro, I would be using kmttg to copy the One Passes, so I might possibly take the opportunity to programatically change the padding in the One Pass export file before I import it to my new Bolt; or I might just change the One Passes by hand since I only have 189 One Passes; at 20 seconds per One Pass it would only take an hour or two.

It is to be hoped TiVo Sarah will do her job so that all this will become a non-issue by the time the TiVo Pro is available.


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## krkaufman

ej42137 said:


> Sorry, I guess I was not clear. Changing the padding on *all* my One Passes is exactly what I am proposing, hence the order of the One Passes would not be a material factor. When I get my new Bolt Pro, I would be using kmttg to copy the One Passes, so I might possibly take the opportunity to programatically change the padding in the One Pass export file before I import it to my new Bolt; or I might just change the One Passes by hand since I only have 189 One Passes; at 20 seconds per One Pass it would only take an hour or two.
> 
> *It is to be hoped TiVo Sarah will do her job so that all this will become a non-issue by the time the TiVo Pro is available.*


Oh, OK!!! I had been reading your posts as that was what your were ALREADY doing... and I was like, "why not just turn off Overlap Protection?"

Gotcha! It's a workaround plan should this "missing Overlap Protection controls" glitch find its way to your boxes, either on the BOLT Pro or if it rolls down to other units, sooner, via software update.



ej42137 said:


> I might just change the One Passes by hand since I only have 189 One Passes; at 20 seconds per One Pass it would only take *an hour or two*.


Chuckle!


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## krkaufman

ej42137 said:


> However, it looks like TiVo Sarah is considering this a bug. Except why do they need any TSNs to check this thing? One would think it would happen on every Bolt and would be quickly reproducible on TiVo Sarah's own unit. Or at least the Bolt sitting in the quality assurance area. Does she need multiple TSNs to prove customers care about the problem?


I don't know what she considers it. And, as indicated previously, that Overlap Protection has been snuffed from the BOLT Viewer's Guide leaves me concerned that TiVo was intentionally moving towards removing control over this feature. Otherwise, I would think its configuration would still be in the guide, especially since they've moved options settings around in the UI, making such documentation even more necessary.


krkaufman said:


> p.p.s. A search of the BOLT Viewer's Guide only turns up one mention of Overlap Protection -- and it's in the trademarks legalese section. No mention of any configurable setting, whatsoever. Hmmm... (edit: ... as compared to 14 occurrences of Overlap Protection in the Roamio Viewer's Guide.)


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## ej42137

krkaufman said:


> I don't know what she considers it. And, as indicated previously, that Overlap Protection has been snuffed from the BOLT Viewer's Guide leaves me concerned that TiVo was intentionally moving towards removing control over this feature. Otherwise, I would think its configuration would still be in the guide, especially since they've moved options settings around in the UI, making such documentation even more necessary.


Right you are, we have some mixed signals on this issue.


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## krkaufman

krkaufman said:


> I don't know what she considers it. And, as indicated previously, that Overlap Protection has been snuffed from the BOLT Viewer's Guide leaves me concerned that TiVo was intentionally moving towards removing control over this feature. Otherwise, I would think its configuration would still be in the guide, especially since they've moved options settings around in the UI, making such documentation even more necessary.


So TiVo has provided some additional feedback via Facebook, and, unfortunately (IMO), it's as I had feared, that the change was intentional:

*TiVo (16Oct2015):* _Hey Karl, we have had updated word on this issue so we wanted to pass it along. Apparently, the Overlap Protection and Extend Live Recording options are missing from the BOLT menus by design; the summart is as follows:

TiVo will automatically clip up to the last 5 minutes of the lowest priority recording in case of a conflict.
Anything overlapping over 5 minutes will not record "All tuners in use". 
Manual recordings are the highest priority by default.
OnePass Manager Priority order will determine priorities of everything else.
You can still add buffers on manual and/or OnePass recordings up to 10 minutes early, and 3 hours late for live recordings.
On the forum link you gave us, Sarah was asking for TSNs. This is to gauge interest in the feature and the more of those we collect the more clout we have in requesting that this feature be brought back, so we would strongly recommend PMing her over there so we can keep it all organized. We can also associate TSNs if anyone calls or chats or emails in to our support center. Thanks!_​
I've asked the followup question, whether the above change will also be rolling out to other DVRs in a future software update, and I'll update the thread if/when I hear back. For now, I'm assuming the worst and may begin updating my OnePasses with 10-minute post-padding across the board. I thought I'd gotten away from this lunacy when I left WMC's bugs behind.

edit: p.s. Update from TiVo...
*TiVo (17Oct2015):* _As far as we know, it is ONLY a change to BOLT devices and the existing procedure on previous models is not slated to change._​Interpret this statement as you will.


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## krkaufman

ej42137 said:


> However, it looks like TiVo Sarah is considering this a bug. *Except why do they need any TSNs to check this thing?*


Answered in TiVo's red-highlighted feedback in the post above... they're collecting TSNs merely to gauge "interest" in bringing back the Overlap Protection controls.

I would think TiVo would have the ability to identify how many DVRs have Overlap Protection disabled. Do they not collect this info, then?


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## aaronwt

What idiot thought this would be a good idea?


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## moyekj

All the more reason 4 tuners are not sufficient. 6 tuners is a hard requirement for me (and for personal use only, not sharing with other family members).


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## krkaufman

moyekj said:


> All the more reason 4 tuners are not sufficient. 6 tuners is a hard requirement for me (and for personal use only, not sharing with other family members).


And now storage requirements are going to shoot up, as well, now that I have to more than double the post-padding on all my shows to 10 minutes. Every 30 minute show will now have to be a 40-minute recording, minimum, to prevent any clipping.

_Kludge-a-rific...!!!_

I expect this is a casualty of the BOLT-related 'Messages & Settings' menu reorganization. That whole reorg has left the Settings menu somewhat disorganized, in my opinion, and some previous settings may have been tossed aside for lack of a sensible place to put them in the new "structure." But who knows....


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## aaronwt

krkaufman said:


> And now storage requirements are going to shoot up, as well, now that I have to more than double the post-padding on all my shows to 10 minutes. Every 30 minute show will now have to be a 40-minute recording, minimum, to prevent any clipping.
> 
> _Kludge-a-rific...!!!_
> 
> I expect this is a casualty of the BOLT-related 'Messages & Settings' menu reorganization. That whole reorg has left the Settings menu somewhat disorganized, in my opinion, and some previous settings may have been tossed aside for lack of a sensible place to put them in the new "structure." But who knows....


Boy I hope that isn't the reason. That would be pretty lame for them to dump that just for menu structure. This news about clipping is really disheartening.

I've used TiVos for fourteen years and it would always just record the lower priority show at a later time. Now this won't be possible when clipping is enabled. Because instead of recording a show later that night, because a higher priority show overlaps it by a few minutes, it will now get clipped? and I miss part of the show? WTF?

So my option is to go in and have to pad dozens of recordings? I've rarely needed padding for shows on FiOS(unlike my Parents with Comcast where everything is delayed by a large amount so shows get cut off without padding)since they typically start at stop and the proper times.


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## solutionsetc

My experience is that the first 5 minutes of a program is far less missed than the last 5 minutes. I'd be OK with the auto-clipping if it clipped the first 5 minutes.


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## aaronwt

solutionsetc said:


> My experience is that the first 5 minutes of a program is far less missed than the last 5 minutes. I'd be OK with the auto-clipping if it clipped the first 5 minutes.


I've seen plenty of shows where I would be lost if I missed the first five minutes.

It's like TiVo decided to take the Bolt back to teh 20th century or something.

Unless this is really just cover up their screw up from when they tried to use one tuner to cover overlapping recordings on the same channel. EVer since they tried that feature and then removed it, things were not right. So maybe they couldn't fix it and their solution was to only have clipping as an option. Which would hide that screw up from ever being seen.


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## solutionsetc

aaronwt said:


> I've seen plenty of shows where I would be lost if I missed the first five minutes.
> 
> It's like TiVo decided to take the Bolt back to teh 20th century or something.
> 
> Unless this is really just cover up their screw up from when they tried to use one to cover overlapping recordings on the same channel. EVer since they tried that feature and then removed it, things were not right. So maybe they couldn't fix it and their solution was to only have clipping as an option. Which would hide that screw up from ever being seen.


LOL, I suppose it varies. Sports came immediately to my mind, where the first 5, even 10 minutes is just fluff. But then there are a lot of series where the last 5 minutes is just one fluff scene at the end to get you to sit through another commercial break.


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## BigJimOutlaw

I can see all the love letters now, thanking them for clipping the last 5 minutes of American Idol or whatever.


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## krkaufman

As an aside, note that, per the above TiVo comment, the "Extend Live Recordings" default setting control has also been removed.

_Extending live recordings

Live events like sport and awards ceremonies often run over. But you can use the Extend Live Recordings setting so that your box will automatically ask you whether you want to add extra time onto your recording when these types of shows are on._​
Personally, this is one I wouldn't have missed, and a change I don't find all that critical, since it's just a backup reminder for those who need to be told they may want to post-pad their live recordings. I've been OK with just dismissing this dialog whenever it pops-up, and haven't ever gotten around to changing the default setting.


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## krkaufman

solutionsetc said:


> My experience is that the first 5 minutes of a program is far less missed than the last 5 minutes. I'd be OK with the auto-clipping if it clipped the first 5 minutes.


Shows will be clipped based on priority, and as Dan previously pointed-out, without any visual indication of the clipping to be done in the To Do List.


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## gespears

I've always put one minute pre and post on all recordings except sports where I go an hour or more over. So I've always had clip issues. But the VERY LEAST they should do for you guys specifically, and really for all of us, is to mark the to be clipped programs somehow. I don't really care how.


Even though this didn't really affect me, I hate to see this happening because once they feel they can get away with this kind of thing they will start dumbing down everything. What's next? Oh you don't really need any options in the Guide. Or a to do list!


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## astrohip

This is untenable. To have a DVR decide on its own to cut part of a program is simply not acceptable. I would have a very difficult time accepting any device that does this to MY recordings.

This one simple design change has now taken the Bolt from something I would love to have for the other new features, to something I can only pray never comes to my three previous gen TiVos.


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## aaronwt

krkaufman said:


> Shows will be clipped based on priority, and as Dan previously pointed-out, without any visual indication of the clipping to be done in the To Do List.


But it's not like I check the to do list very often. That was one of the best things about Tivo, it did everything with little intervention by me. With forced clipping I will need to be checking the to do list regularly.


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## Dan203

I hope the FB guy is wrong and this was something they just forgot to put into the new menus. They added clipping a long time ago. (v3 I think, back in the S2 days) I tried it for a while and realized quickly that I would rather miss a show completely then miss the start/end. In fact the whole point of padding is to avoid missing the start/end of a show, so why would they think it's OK to clip the start/end of a show automatically? Especially when the majority of what I watch is reaired later and can easily be rescheduled.

If they don't bring back a way to turn this off I wont even consider getting a Bolt Pro. It's tollerable on the Bolt I have since it's OTA only and network shows aren't typically reaired, but for cable recordings it's unacceptable.


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## krkaufman

aaronwt said:


> But it's not like I check the to do list very often. That was one of the best things about Tivo, it did everything with little intervention by me. With forced clipping I will need to be checking the to do list regularly.


Excellent point. Letting us know what will be clipped isn't really a solution.


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## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> I hope the FB guy is wrong and this was something they just forgot to put into the new menus.


I hope so, too, but, again, that Overlap Protection configuration was removed from the BOLT Viewer's Guide indicates that it was not a simple oversight (barring some extremely tight integration between their codebase and an automated documentation generator).


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## krkaufman

astrohip said:


> This one simple design change has now taken the Bolt from something I would love to have for the other new features, to something I can only pray never comes to my three previous gen TiVos.





Dan203 said:


> If they don't bring back a way to turn this off I wont even consider getting a Bolt Pro. It's tollerable on the Bolt I have since it's OTA only and network shows aren't typically reaired, but for cable recordings it's unacceptable.


I was leaning towards upgrading my niece to a BOLT, from a just-installed Lifetime'd basic Roamio, but this change has snuffed that plan. I really don't want to be getting calls about this show or that not being recorded properly, nor do I want to have to try to explain to her why she needs to post-pad every recording by 10 minutes.

p.s. But, hey, maybe that's why the storage estimates for the BOLT seem off from past models. TiVo has added a 20% loss to the formula, to account for post-padding every episode by 10 minutes!


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## ad301

I find it very sad that TiVo could even consider forcing clipping, knowing that it would inevitably result in unnecessary partial recordings. Someone there should have had enough sense to declare this idea a non-starter.

If you take away the option, you have to disable clipping entirely. You can't let a user find out weeks or months later that the last 5 minutes of a program is just missing.

In effect, TiVo has just destroyed the confidence I have always had that my scheduled recordings would be there when I wanted to watch them. Am I now expected to check the TDL every day looking for signs that I might have a clipping situation to resolve? (How do I even tell?) Or do I need to check every recording after it finishes to make sure it's complete?

This is crazy bad.


----------



## atmuscarella

ad301 said:


> I find it very sad that TiVo could even consider forcing clipping, knowing that it would inevitably result in unnecessary partial recordings. Someone there should have had enough sense to declare this idea a non-starter.
> 
> If you take away the option, you have to disable clipping entirely. You can't let a user find out weeks or months later that the last 5 minutes of a program is just missing.
> 
> In effect, TiVo has just destroyed the confidence I have always had that my scheduled recordings would be there when I wanted to watch them. Am I now expected to check the TDL every day looking for signs that I might have a clipping situation to resolve? (How do I even tell?) Or do I need to check every recording after it finishes to make sure it's complete?
> 
> This is crazy bad.


While I agree 100% that TiVo should not have removed the option to turn clipping off, it only happens if all tuners are in use and less than 5 minutes has to be clipped. If you are unfortunate and have to pad your shows move padding to 10 min. and that will stop clipping because of the padding. If you have clipping because of odd ball start/stop times nothing you can do but manually monitor it and correct what you can. Hopefully TiVo will wake up and put the option back in to turn clipping off.


----------



## trip1eX

Did they force clipping cause of the Autoskip? Or just to simplify things? 

Also don't see the big problem if you were already padding your recordings. You'd have to use extra tuners anyway right? So just pad 10 minutes. Problem solved.


----------



## atmuscarella

trip1eX said:


> Did they force clipping cause of the Autoskip? Or just to simplify things?
> 
> Also don't see the big problem if you were already padding your recordings. You'd have to use extra tuners anyway right? So just pad 10 minutes. Problem solved.


I don't think we know why the menu option was removed, don't see what SkipMode has to do with it. When first asked the responses from TiVo seemed to indicate they didn't even know themselves that the option had been removed. What people who want to turn clipping off want to happen is for TiVo to auto find a time it can record the show without clipping it. Which is easy enough for many (most?) cable only networks/stations. You are correct that there are work arounds like padding for 10 min. or setting your one pass to record all showings of a show but there is no real reason to need work arounds just put the menu option back to turn it off and let users decided how they want it to work.


----------



## krkaufman

trip1eX said:


> Also don't see the big problem if you were already padding your recordings. You'd have to use extra tuners anyway right? So just pad 10 minutes. Problem solved.


So just take a 20+% hit on storage capacity, and make a recurring appointment to regularly review the configuration to ensure 10-minute post-padding on all recordings -- as opposed to simply leaving in place the ability to disable this puzzling feature that will leave the unsuspecting user with partial recordings.

Problem so very not solved.


----------



## trip1eX

atmuscarella said:


> I don't think we know why the menu option was removed, don't see what SkipMode has to do with it. When first asked the responses from TiVo seemed to indicate they didn't even know themselves that the option had been removed. What people who want to turn clipping off want to happen is for TiVo to auto find a time it can record the show without clipping it. Which is easy enough for many (most?) cable only networks/stations. You are correct that there are work arounds like padding for 10 min. or setting your one pass to record all showings of a show but there is no real reason to need work arounds just put the menu option back to turn it off and let users decided how they want it to work.


It works the same though if you add 10 minutes of padding.


----------



## NorthAlabama

Dan203 said:


> The SD interface would put an asterisks next to shows that would be clipped. As far as I can tell there is no indication in the HDUI.


this asterisk indicator was removed from the hdui with a software update, it existed when i first purchased my pxl.


----------



## trip1eX

krkaufman said:


> So just take a 20+% hit on storage capacity, and make a recurring appointment to regularly review the configuration to ensure 10-minute post-padding on all recordings -- as opposed to simply leaving in place the ability to disable this puzzling feature that will leave the unsuspecting user with partial recordings.
> 
> Problem so very not solved.


Why do you have to regularly review anything? You add 10 minutes and you're good.

Storage hit isn't that great if you're padding your shows by 5 minutes already. It isn't that great on an hour long show even if you weren't padding.

IF nothing to do with autoskip, then they must have figured either A) most people would like a clipped show than for it to not record at all or B) Tivo is now smart enough to record a later airing instead of clipping a show.


----------



## aaronwt

trip1eX said:


> Why do you have to regularly review anything? You add 10 minutes and you're good.
> 
> Storage hit isn't that great if you're padding your shows by 5 minutes already. It isn't that great on an hour long show even if you weren't padding.
> 
> IF nothing to do with autoskip, then they must have figured either A) most people would like a clipped show than for it to not record at all or B) Tivo is now smart enough to record a later airing instead of clipping a show.


Why should I have to pad anything? It's rare that I need to pad any of my shows. The entire show is recorded without any padding. I don't see why I should have to go through all my One Passes and add padding when it isn't needed. All that would do is further complicate things.

Right now everything gets recorded and I don't need to look at my To DO list. But once I start moving things to the Bolt, then I need to spend time babysitting my ToDoList? That would be a gigantic step back backwards.


----------



## Dan203

Yeah it's not just padding that can cause conflicts. Some networks will automatically schedule their shows to run over by a few minutes.


----------



## trip1eX

aaronwt said:


> Why should I have to pad anything? It's rare that I need to pad any of my shows. The entire show is recorded without any padding. I don't see why I should have to go through all my One Passes and add padding when it isn't needed. All that would do is further complicate things.
> 
> Right now everything gets recorded and I don't need to look at my To DO list. But once I start moving things to the Bolt, then I need to spend time babysitting my ToDoList? That would be a gigantic step back backwards.


IF it is rare you need to pad any of your shows then what's the problem?


----------



## NorthAlabama

all clips are not created equal. clipping 1 minute from the start of a show airing on hbo, showtime, & pbs (or most series that show previous weeks ep clips) is not the same as clipping 5 minutes from the cold open of saturday night live. loosing the ending of any show is unacceptable.

tivo needs to rethink it's life.


----------



## trip1eX

NorthAlabama said:


> all clips are not created equal. clipping 1 minute from the start of a show airing on hbo, showtime, & pbs (or most series that show previous weeks ep clips) is not the same as clipping 5 minutes from the cold open of saturday night live.
> 
> tivo needs to rethink it's life.


But you can pad SNL to start 10 minutes early if you need to.


----------



## Dan203

With a network show that only shows once a week clipping is fine. Since those shows rarely repeat, and typically start with a commercial or "previously on", losing a minute is more desirable then missing the show completely. However cable shows typically repeat several times through the week, a lot of times at a later time slot that same night, so in that case an unclipped rescheduling of the show would be desirable.

If TiVo intends to make this logic automatic then I think they need to add logic that will prefer a rescheduled version of the show over clipping if the same episode airs within 24 hours of it's original air date. I think that would fix the issue with clipping for most people.


----------



## aaronwt

trip1eX said:


> IF it is rare you need to pad any of your shows then what's the problem?


Many shows are scheduled to run a few minutes past the hour or start prior to the hour.
Normally a lower priority show will get recorded at a later time/day when you have that overlap. With clipping the show will get truncated. So the problem is I won't have the entire show recorded. That is a major problem to have part of a show not recorded.

It not like this will happen every day. But just the fact that it will happen makes the entire process unreliable. With the need to babysit the ToDo List.

EDIT: So for instance right now with the my Roamio Pro and six tuners I see seven conflicts between today and tomorrow. If I switched down to one Bolt that would be even fewer tuners and more conflicts. If I have a bunch of shows with overlapping times, I would rather the lower priority show get recorded at a later airing. That way I have the entire show to watch. With clipping those same shows would have part of the show cut off. And I see no point in watching a show if the entire show isn't there. So then if it's something I want to watch, I need to purchase it from Amazon, Vudu, etc.. to watch the entire show. Which costs even more money.


----------



## lpwcomp

trip1eX said:


> But you can pad SNL to start 10 minutes early if you need to.


5 minutes is the maximum pre-padding.


----------



## trip1eX

lpwcomp said:


> 5 minutes is the maximum pre-padding.


10 on SNL. Maybe cause it's a live show?


----------



## trip1eX

aaronwt said:


> Many shows are scheduled to run a few minutes past the hour or start prior to the hour.
> Normally a lower priority show will get recorded at a later time/day when you have that overlap. With clipping the show will get truncated. So the problem is I won't have the entire show recorded. That is a major problem to have part of a show not recorded.
> 
> It not like this will happen every day. But just the fact that it will happen makes the entire process unreliable. With the need to babysit the ToDo List.
> 
> EDIT: So for instance right now with the my Roamio Pro and six tuners I see seven conflicts between today and tomorrow. If I switched down to one Bolt that would be even fewer tuners and more conflicts. If I have a bunch of shows with overlapping times, I would rather the lower priority show get recorded at a later airing. That way I have the entire show to watch. With clipping those same shows would have part of the show cut off. And I see no point in watching a show if the entire show isn't there. So then if it's something I want to watch, I need to purchase it from Amazon, Vudu, etc.. to watch the entire show. Which costs even more money.


YOu already sound like you monitor your Tivo for conflicts. 

I gotta run but more to say later probably.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> 10 on SNL. Maybe cause it's a live show?


No he's saying that 5 minutes is the maximum allowed for the start of a show. The TiVo UI wont allow you to pad the start of a show more then 5 minutes. The end can be extended by hours, but the start only has 1-5.


----------



## lpwcomp

trip1eX said:


> 10 on SNL. Maybe cause it's a live show?


Looks like they added a 10 minute pre-padding option. However, during testing I discovered something else. The maximum total (pre+post) _*default*_ padding is 5 minutes.


----------



## Dan203

lpwcomp said:


> Looks like they added a 10 minute pre-padding option.


I didn't notice that either. 



lpwcomp said:


> However, during testing I discovered something else. The maximum total (pre+post) _*default*_ padding is 5 minutes.


So you're not allowed to add more then 5 minutes total when editing the default options?


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> I didn't notice that either.
> 
> So you're not allowed to add more then 5 minutes total when editing the default options?


Correct. If you increase one so the total would be more than 5, it reduces the other one.

At least on my Roamio Basic. Haven't tested it on a Premiere or my Pro.


----------



## krkaufman

trip1eX said:


> Why do you have to regularly review anything? You add 10 minutes and you're good.


Human error -- combined with wanting to avoid any user dissatisfaction with the DVR solution chosen for the household, a solution that seemingly is now changing a fundamental way in which it works. (As mentioned previously, I thought I'd left this required post-padding nonsense behind w/ the permanently buggy Windows Media Center.)



trip1eX said:


> Storage hit isn't that great if you're padding your shows by 5 minutes already.


Except we're NOT. We only post-pad *some* shows by 2 or 3 minutes, shows with "reputations" for running long.



trip1eX said:


> B) Tivo is now smart enough to record a later airing instead of clipping a show.


A possibility previously suggested, but needs to be tested. And even if this is the case, TiVo not considering "clipping" to be a conflict needing special classification in the To Do List seems a design flaw, as well.



trip1eX said:


> IF it is rare you need to pad any of your shows then what's the problem?


Everything stated in the thread to this point.


----------



## Dan203

lpwcomp said:


> Correct. If you increase one so the total would be more than 5, it reduces the other one.
> 
> At least on my Roamio Basic. Haven't tested it on a Premiere or my Pro.


Just tried on Bolt and it does the same thing.


----------



## trip1eX

lpwcomp said:


> Correct. If you increase one so the total would be more than 5, it reduces the other one.
> 
> At least on my Roamio Basic. Haven't tested it on a Premiere or my Pro.


So can you do 10 at start and 0 at end or vice versa?


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> So can you do 10 at start and 0 at end or vice versa?


5 total. So 5 at the start and 0 at the end. Basically there is no amount you can enter into the default that would override the clipping. You'd have to manually adjust every 1P


----------



## lpwcomp

trip1eX said:


> So can you do 10 at start and 0 at end or vice versa?


Not in the default settings. Max is 5 total.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> 5 total. So 5 at the start and 0 at the end. Basically there is no amount you can enter into the default that would override the clipping. You'd have to manually adjust every 1P


Oh ok. Still can do it. Just not universally.


----------



## krkaufman

lpwcomp said:


> The maximum total (pre+post) _*default*_ padding is 5 minutes.


... referring to the default recording settings, under the "OnePass and Recording Options" dialog, found via:
TiVo Central
> Settings & Messages
> Settings
> Recording
> OnePass and Recording Options

_(on a Roamio or earlier, anyway)_​
The default maximum pre- or post-padding remains 5 minutes, so you *would* have to manually ensure that each OnePass or manual recording is explicitly set w/ 10-minute padding to avert clipping. These default settings wouldn't be sufficient to block clipping, correct?


----------



## lpwcomp

krkaufman said:


> ... referring to the default recording settings, under the "OnePass and Recording Options" dialog, found via:
> TiVo Central
> > Settings & Messages
> > Settings
> > Recording
> > OnePass and Recording Options
> 
> _(on a Roamio or earlier, anyway)_​
> The default maximum pre- or post-padding remains 5 minutes, so you *would* have to manually ensure that each OnePass or manual recording is explicitly set w/ 10-minute padding to avert clipping. These default settings wouldn't be sufficient to block clipping, correct?


That would seem to be correct, which is why I'm glad forced clipping is being treated as a bug rather than a feature. I just hope it doesn't get deployed to Premieres and Roamios before it is fixed.


----------



## trip1eX

lpwcomp said:


> That would seem to be correct, which is why I'm glad forced clipping is being treated as a bug rather than a feature. I just hope it doesn't get deployed to Premieres and Roamios before it is fixed.


OH I thought the latest was that the change was intentional.


----------



## astrohip

trip1eX said:


> Also don't see the big problem if you were already padding your recordings. You'd have to use extra tuners anyway right? So just pad 10 minutes. Problem solved.


Not in the least. First, I'm guessing the average user *never* pads or knows anything about it. Only advanced users and fanatics.

And I have 105 SPs. No way am I padding all of them.



trip1eX said:


> B) If Tivo is now smart enough to record a later airing instead of clipping a show.


We don't know that though.



lpwcomp said:


> That would seem to be correct, which is why I'm glad forced clipping is being treated as a bug rather than a feature. I just hope it doesn't get deployed to Premieres and Roamios before it is fixed.


Do we know this is a bug? If so, I'll quit yapping and wait for the fix.

Otherwise, I think this is a significant mistake. People are going to scream when they start finding parts of their shows missing. And the worst part is, they may never know why, unless there is a specific notice given that a show was clipped.

I often record a group of shows (marathons, repeats of older series I missed, whatever) for later viewing, confident they will be watchable when I'm ready. Imagine if you never knew if part of an episode was missing, until you actually watched it?!? :down:

Again, this needs to be changed, or I will have serious problems buying a TiVo in the future.

FWIW, I micro-manage my To-Do List, making sure all the shows I expect to record are actually on it. I used to use the "*" to find out what shows were clipped, and adjust accordingly. Now I have clipping turned off, and all I have to do is look for missing shows. This change would force me to start looking at where I might have too many shows recording, calculating which shows I pad (only the few where I know the network screws up), and what might get clipped. Waaay too much work. And yes, I often have all tuners going. Sunday & Monday nights are crazy right now.

:down::down:


----------



## krkaufman

lpwcomp said:


> That would seem to be correct, *which is why I'm glad forced clipping is being treated as a bug rather than a feature*. I just hope it doesn't get deployed to Premieres and Roamios before it is fixed.


What makes you think it's being treated as a bug? The *latest feedback I've seen from TiVo* indicates it's the new normal, a fait accompli. They're said to be collecting TSNs to gauge concern over the change, but I've seen nothing so far to indicate any alteration to the new approach.

Further, as you say, we've been left in the dark as to whether the changes can be expected to roll down to existing DVRs, Roamio and earlier, in a future software update, and so we're left wondering and hoping for the best.


----------



## lpwcomp

krkaufman said:


> What makes you think it's being treated as a bug? The latest feedback I've seen from TiVo indicates it's the new normal, a fait accompli. They're said to be collecting TSNs to gauge concern over the change, but I've seen nothing so far to indicate any alteration to the new approach.
> 
> Further, as you say, we've been left in the dark as to whether the changes can be expected to roll down to existing DVRs, Roamio and earlier, in a future software update, and so we're left wondering and hoping for the best.


They said they were investigating the inability to disable clipping:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10661375&highlight=#post10661375

Where did you hear that it was merely to gauge concern? Since it only currently effects the Bolt, that would be idiotic.


----------



## trip1eX

lpwcomp said:


> They said they were investigating the inability to disable clipping:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10661375&highlight=#post10661375
> 
> Where did you hear that it was merely to gauge concern? Since it only currently effects the Bolt, that would be idiotic.


Tivo backtracks on that statement later in this thread.

The first response sounded like it was from a low level tech/customer support person.

As others said, it (disabling of clipping) is also edited out of the Bolt user manual.


----------



## aaronwt

trip1eX said:


> YOu already sound like you monitor your Tivo for conflicts.
> 
> I gotta run but more to say later probably.


No I just checked from TiVo online to see what was coming up.


----------



## trip1eX

hhhmm I never turned clipping off in the first place. I guess I'm not going to miss not being able to turn it off.


----------



## krkaufman

lpwcomp said:


> They said they were investigating the inability to disable clipping:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10661375&highlight=#post10661375
> 
> Where did you hear that it was merely to gauge concern?


In my Facebook interaction w/ someone representing TiVo. See the post linked in the text you quoted from my previous reply. Or just go *here*.



lpwcomp said:


> Since it only currently effects the Bolt, that would be idiotic.


Seemingly. But then I expect those who've already made this design change for the BOLT have a different perspective from me.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> hhhmm I never turned clipping off in the first place. I guess I'm not going to miss not being able to turn it off.


I forgot to turn it off once when I got my Premiere Elite. I ended up with an entire season of a show from FX with the first 5 minutes clipped. Even though it was the type of show that repeated constantly TiVo chose to clip the first showing rather then reschedule a later one. After that I made sure it was the first thing I disabled when I got a new TiVo, which is what prompted this thread when I couldn't find it on the Bolt.


----------



## markjrenna

Has anyone emailed TiVo... Margret Schmidt... this concern? She says she wants feedback. Maybe if she reads this thread she can comment on bringing back the option.

"If you have feedback about your TiVo experience please email me at [email protected]."


----------



## krkaufman

lpwcomp said:


> *Where did you hear that it was merely to gauge concern?* Since it only currently effects the Bolt, that would be idiotic.


The Facebook thread previously mentioned. Here's the specific question/response confirming that they're only gauging customer concern over the loss of the feature...

*Me (17Oct2015):* By "track the impact," I believe they're merely looking to collect TSNs as a measure of how many people are concerned with the change. I don't believe they'll be doing any active "tracking" of specific devices to see how those devices are behaving.

*TiVo (17Oct2015):* That's correct.​


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> I forgot to turn it off once when I got my Premiere Elite. I ended up with an entire season of a show from FX with the first 5 minutes clipped. Even though it was the type of show that repeated constantly TiVo chose to clip the first showing rather then reschedule a later one. After that I made sure it was the first thing I disabled when I got a new TiVo, *which is what prompted this thread when I couldn't find it on the Bolt.*


Thank you.

And I guess the above confirms the fear that TiVo implemented the feature poorly, clipping the conflicting recording rather than only doing so as a last resort, should no later airings be available. Ugh.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> I forgot to turn it off once when I got my Premiere Elite. I ended up with an entire season of a show from FX with the first 5 minutes clipped. Even though it was the type of show that repeated constantly TiVo chose to clip the first showing rather then reschedule a later one. After that I made sure it was the first thing I disabled when I got a new TiVo, which is what prompted this thread when I couldn't find it on the Bolt.


lol. I have had it on for 15 months, ever since I bought a Roamio PLus, and can't recall one show missing its start or ending.

I do wonder why they took it out.

I'm guessing very few used it or needed it.


----------



## lpwcomp

trip1eX said:


> lol. I have had it on for 15 months, ever since I bought a Roamio PLus, and can't recall one show missing its start or ending.
> 
> I do wonder why they took it out.
> 
> I'm guessing very few used it or needed it.


Just the kind of user I love. "I don't need it so it isn't necessary."


----------



## atmuscarella

trip1eX said:


> lol. I have had it on for 15 months, ever since I bought a Roamio PLus, and can't recall one show missing its start or ending.
> 
> I do wonder why they took it out.
> 
> I'm guessing very few used it or needed it.


With 6 tuners it is less likely you are going to need to clip a show than you are with a 4 tuners, plus if you don't pad much that also reduces the likely hood of ever needing to clip a show. Plus there seems to less of those shows that go over by a minute this year than there was in the past, if all shows start/stop on the hour or 1/2 hour that again would reduce the likely hood of a show needing to be clipped.


----------



## mattack

atmuscarella said:


> plus if you don't pad much that also reduces the likely hood of ever needing to clip a show. Plus there seems to less of those shows that go over by a minute this year than there was in the past, if all shows start/stop on the hour or 1/2 hour that again would reduce the likely hood of a show needing to be clipped.


Your logic doesn't flow. There are just as many of those minute-over shows as there used to be.. NBC shows and Mythbusters are still the common offenders. I don't remember for sure if The Simpsons (and the rest of Fox's Sunday cartoons) still do it, but they did for a long time. I have 1 minute pre + post pad on the vast majority of my recordings, because of this issue.

The logic doesn't flow because the 1 minute post pads _can_ cause clipping in other shows.


----------



## ej42137

lpwcomp said:


> Just the kind of user I love. "I don't need it so it isn't necessary."


I think it went down like this: TiVo does customer surveys all the time. I'm sure that one of the things it gets dinged on is how complex it is and hard to figure out. (I know this is the case because back when I did customer feedback surveys for my companies' products you could always count on users whining about complexity.) As a result, the designers have a mandate to simplify the interface in order to increase satisfaction with new customers. The easiest way to simplify the interface is to remove features; the hard way is to rethink the interface so that it is more intuitive. Doing the latter will alienate your customer base much more that dropping a little used option here and there, and besides, it takes more work and talent. Anyway, TiVo designers look for something that can be dropped, and clipping seems to fit the bill, because few people turn it off anyway, with more tuners it is needed less, and there is a work-around of padding five minutes or more. So clipping gets dropped and TiVo Sarah is collecting TSNs to see how badly we old-timers want it back.

Dropping multiple Season Passes when One Pass was implemented was probably done for the same reason; but I would say they were even braver/more thoughtless when they did that because One Passes have dropped function that doesn't really have any good work-around.

I don't like it but I'm certainly not going to pass up a Bolt Pro with twelve tuners and 12 TB of storage because of it. I suggest that everyone who feels more strongly than I about this issue complain directly to TiVo now, while TiVo can still save face by calling it an oversight.


----------



## lpwcomp

ej42137 said:


> I think it went down like this: TiVo does customer surveys all the time. I'm sure that one of the things it gets dinged on is how complex it is and hard to figure out. (I know this is the case because back when I did customer feedback surveys for my companies' products you could always count on users whining about complexity.) As a result, the designers have a mandate to simplify the interface in order to increase satisfaction with new customers. The easiest way to simplify the interface is to remove features; the hard way is to rethink the interface so that it is more intuitive. Doing the latter will alienate your customer base much more that dropping a little used option here and there, and besides, it takes more work and talent. Anyway, TiVo designers look for something that can be dropped, and clipping seems to fit the bill, because few people turn it off anyway, with more tuners it is needed less, and there is a work-around of padding five minutes or more. So clipping gets dropped and TiVo Sarah is collecting TSNs to see how badly we old-timers want it back.
> 
> Dropping multiple Season Passes when One Pass was implemented was probably done for the same reason; but I would say they were even braver/more thoughtless when they did that because One Passes have dropped function that doesn't really have any good work-around.
> 
> I don't like it but I'm certainly not going to pass up a Bolt Pro with twelve tuners and 12 TB of storage because of it. I suggest that everyone who feels more strongly than I about this issue complain directly to TiVo now, while TiVo can still save face by calling it an oversight.


How does dropping an option that few people even see simplify anything?

It's really stupid to drop something that can cause this much of an adverse effect and _*then*_ take a survey. Did they have any evidence that the option was confusing anyone (besides some clueless marketing type)?

For people like me who regularly pad by 2 minutes on each end, this is going to be really bad. I just hope that they don't change their minds and deploy it on Premieres and Roamios.

BTW, since it will clip *up to* 5 minutes, you have to pad by at least 10 minutes (the lowest option > 5) _*at each end*_. That is a major increase in disk space needed.


----------



## trip1eX

lpwcomp said:


> Just the kind of user I love. "I don't need it so it isn't necessary."


Lol. I didn't say it wasn't useful to anyone. But guessing they got rid of it because few used it. It would be interesting to hear what their thought process was.

I think I was a bit confused by this option and the way it is presented the first time I encountered it. The choice they give you is clip a minute or two of a program or not record it. What kind of choice is that? None at all at first glance.


----------



## lpwcomp

What TiVo seems to headed toward is telling everyone who doesn't like the default behavior to see figure 1.


----------



## krkaufman

lpwcomp said:


> What TiVo seems to headed toward is telling everyone who doesn't like the default behavior to see figure 1.


Heh, can't believe I'd never heard *that one* before.

And, yeah, seems that may be the case.


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## atmuscarella

mattack said:


> Your logic doesn't flow. There are just as many of those minute-over shows as there used to be.. NBC shows and Mythbusters are still the common offenders. I don't remember for sure if The Simpsons (and the rest of Fox's Sunday cartoons) still do it, but they did for a long time. I have 1 minute pre + post pad on the vast majority of my recordings, because of this issue.
> 
> The logic doesn't flow because the 1 minute post pads _can_ cause clipping in other shows.


Well you correct I don't know for a fact if there are more or less shows not starting/stopping on the hour or 1/2 hour. I am OTA only and can not speak to cable channels but of my 49 active one passes only 2 shows fit that bill Castle and Late Night with Stephen Colbert, last year I had more.

Regarding padding just because a show does not start/end on the hour or 1/2 hour doesn't mean padding is required. A person needs to pad shows when their start/stop times don't line up with the noted time in the guide as determined by their TiVo's time.

Currently that only happens to me with live events that run past their allotted time (like Sunday Football) and the shows that become delayed after them. Other people need to pad lots of shows because their broadcaster is broadcasting shows at a time that does not match what the guide says as determined by their TiVo's time.

In any event the more a person needs to pad shows a minute or two the more likely clipping can happen. Also the more shows a person records that don't start/stop on the hour or 1/2 hour the more likely clipping can happen. My point was simple that if a person has 6 tuners and doesn't pad much or at all it is less likely they will see shows clipped.


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## ej42137

lpwcomp said:


> How does dropping an option that few people even see simplify anything?


The more choices you give a user, the more things he has to learn; the more things he has to remember and make choices about. Having many options is almost the definition of a complex interface. Removing it means there is one less menu choice to puzzle over.

I'm surprised that you feel this needs to be explained. My point was that what was done was not an "improvement", it was developer or designers working to achieve the goal of looking to their management like they are accomplishing something.

By no means am I suggesting that removing those choices was a good idea; I certainly do not, and I don't think what they did *actually* improved usability. All the change accomplished was some developer got to put on his progress report that he simplified the user interface, and so maybe he didn't get laid off this quarter. What he did was make the product less usable and require a painful work-around to avoid the irritation of clipping.

If you own a Bolt, please complain to TiVo about this problem!


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## krkaufman

Reminder... let's keep our focus directed at TiVo and getting this change reversed on the BOLT -- and kept from ever making it to earlier devices.


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## slowbiscuit

I don't have a Bolt and probably never will (in its current form), but jeez this has to go down as one of the most bone-headed Tivo feature removals ever. Right up in front of doing 1Ps instead of multiple SPs, in fact. With only 4 tuners you're almost guaranteed to run into this with network shows at a minimum, and your cable stuff will also get impacted even with repeats because the scheduler will clip instead of record later.

C'mon Tivo, listen to your community here - NO ONE thinks this was a good idea.


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## lpwcomp

My point was that most of the people who would be "confused" (if any such exist) don't even see the recording options menu.

If some designers/developers did this to show "progress", then things work a lot differently than they did when I was working and TiVos process is even more flawed than I thought.

Question for Bolt users: Is it still possible to enable and use 30-second skip?


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## krkaufman

lpwcomp said:


> Question for Bolt users: Is it still possible to enable and use 30-second skip?


*Yes*, I did so on a BOLT just the other day. (Along w/ disabling Overlap Protection, that's one of the first things I do after Guided Setup. Well, *try* to do, in the case of the BOLT.)


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## Dan203

krkaufman said:


> Thank you.
> 
> And I guess the above confirms the fear that TiVo implemented the feature poorly, clipping the conflicting recording rather than only doing so as a last resort, should no later airings be available. Ugh.


Yeah if they had some sort of rule where they could only clip a show if there was no other showing withing X days then it would be fine. Actually it would be a little better then it is now. Clipping is OK if it means I would miss the show completely, like a network show that only airs once, but it's not OK when there is another showing a couple hours later that didn't conflict with anything. If they were to improve the logic then I'd have no issue with clipping being on.

Hmmmm... Maybe they have. Has anyone actually tested it with something that repeats?


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## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> Hmmmm... Maybe they have. Has anyone actually tested it with something that repeats?


Possible, but highly doubtful as this would constitute a major change in the scheduler's conflict resolution code.


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## Dan203

My Bolt is currently setup for OTA only, where nothing really repeats, so I can't easily test this myself.


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## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> Yeah if they had some sort of rule where they could only clip a show if there was no other showing withing X days then *it would be fine*. Actually it would be a little better then it is now. Clipping is OK if it means I would miss the show completely, like a network show that only airs once, but it's not OK when there is another showing a couple hours later that didn't conflict with anything. If they were to improve the logic then *I'd have no issue *with clipping being on.


Mostly agree. However, *I* still wouldn't be happy that the TiVo provides no indication of upcoming shows that will be clipped.



Dan203 said:


> Hmmmm... Maybe they have. Has anyone actually tested it with something that repeats?


Yeah, I've been wondering that, as well. Ok, maybe I should just test it, on my lesser-used OTA Roamio. It's not doing anything in the afternoons....


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## Dan203

OTA Roamio wont work if this is a change in the Bolt software.


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## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> Hmmmm... Maybe they have. Has anyone actually tested it with something that repeats?





Dan203 said:


> My Bolt is currently setup for OTA only, where nothing really repeats, so I can't easily test this myself.


Heh, yeah, I ran into that as soon as I started trying to figure out how to create the right conditions on my OTA-fed basic Roamio -- and then stumbled over my OnePass for PBS' "Frontline."

And, at least right now, within minutes of having adjusted my OnePass options for "Frontline," I can verify that the TiVo nonsensically clips the first airing of the "Frontline" episode, rather than shifting to one of the later re-airings.

That said, I need to do a bit more testing, to find a better candidate -- as the re-airings of "Frontline" by my local PBS station are on a sub-channel and aren't flagged as "HD." (I'd opened-up my OnePass to allow for "All" channels and HD "if possible," but I want to give the TiVo the best possible chance for success.)


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## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> OTA Roamio wont work if this is a change in the Bolt software.


True. I hadn't thought of that; I was looking more at just getting a data point more recent than your Premiere Elite.

I may have to unpack that BOLT and postpone its return to Best Buy.


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## lpwcomp

krkaufman said:


> Mostly agree. However, *I* still wouldn't be happy that the TiVo provides no indication of upcoming shows that will be clipped.
> 
> Yeah, I've been wondering that, as well. Ok, maybe I should just test it, on my lesser-used OTA Roamio. It's not doing anything in the afternoons....


I would think it would have to be tested on a Bolt.


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## cherry ghost

Does the Bolt at least show the adjusted start time of a clipped show in the To Do List?

Example - a show that starts at 8:00 will have the first five minutes clipped. The To Do List shows the start time as 8:05


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## Dan203

krkaufman said:


> Heh, yeah, I ran into that as soon as I started trying to figure out how to create the right conditions on my OTA-fed basic Roamio -- and then stumbled over my OnePass for PBS' "Frontline."


Good find. I just setup a 1P for Frontline, which shows a repeat airing on the same station just a few hours after the original, and it still clipped the original airing rather then getting the repeat. So the answer appears to be no, they did not add any logic to the feature before removing the option to turn it off. :down:



cherry ghost said:


> Does the Bolt at least show the adjusted start time of a clipped show in the To Do List?
> 
> Example - a show that starts at 8:00 will have the first five minutes clipped. The To Do List shows the start time as 8:05


Yes it does do this. However sometimes the networks adjust times like this too, so it's not immediately obvious that the change is caused by clipping.


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## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> Good find. I just setup a 1P for Frontline, which shows a repeat airing on the same station just a few hours after the original, and it still clipped the original airing rather then getting the repeat. So the answer appears to be no, they did not add any logic to the feature before removing the option to turn it off. :down:


Thanks for testing that out.

(And why it wasn't done the way you suggest in the FIRST place is a whole 'nother question.)


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## CoxInPHX

TiVo missed a menu regarding clipping.
The Recording Conflict Clipping Message still refers to the Settings.


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## lpwcomp

krkaufman said:


> (And why it wasn't done the way you suggest in the FIRST place is a whole 'nother question.)


Because it makes conflict resolution much more complex and could definitely lead to user confusion. "Why did it record "a" when "b" had a higher priority?"


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## krkaufman

lpwcomp said:


> Because it makes conflict resolution much more complex and could definitely lead to user confusion. "Why did it record "a" when "b" had a higher priority?"


No, it'd work almost identical to how it does now, with clipping (Overlap Protection) disabled -- except instead of giving up and not recording the lower priority show in the event that all subsequent airings are also "conflicted out," the TiVo would *then* resort to clipping the first airing. As the feature exists now, it clips as a first resort.

(That is, the higher priority show is still always recorded. The change/fix we're talking about only relates to the lower priority show that will currently be clipped -- even though followup broadcasts for the show are present in the guide data.)

Bonus points could be scored by TiVo by also finally implementing a "bad recording" feature, where the partial/clipped recording wouldn't be considered as "recorded" when looking at later possible airdates, whether inside the 28-day window or whether the partial/clipped recording is still listed in "My Shows."


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## lpwcomp

krkaufman said:


> No, it'd work almost identical to how it does now, with clipping (Overlap Protection) disabled -- except instead of giving up and not recording the lower priority show in the event that all subsequent airings are also "conflicted out," the TiVo would *then* resort to clipping the first airing. As the feature exists now, it clips as a first resort.


That is not "exactly how it works now". It does not look ahead to see if there is a later showing. That is what would be complicated.


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## krkaufman

lpwcomp said:


> That is not "exactly how it works now". It does not look ahead to see if there is a later showing. That is what would be complicated.


Use of quotes is usually reserved for quoting someone's *actual* words... which were "it'd work almost identical to how it does now, with clipping (Overlap Protection) disabled."

And I have to assume we're talking about something entirely different or are simply incapable of communicating effectively, because TiVos most definitely *are* capable of resolving conflicts by recording a lower priority show at a later time -- that is, if Overlap Protection is turned off.

Yes, that would be a complicated feature -- except it's a feature that already exists and functions great... if Overlap Protection is disabled.

So why couldn't the clipping only be a last resort, after the existing and totally excellent "clipping disabled" logic has had a chance to reschedule the lower priority recording for a later time? I continue to think it's crazy that TiVo thinks anyone would find it preferable to clip a recording at 8pm that could be recorded in full at 10pm.


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## krkaufman

lpwcomp said:


> Because it makes conflict resolution much more complex and could definitely lead to user confusion. *"Why did it record "a" when "b" had a higher priority?"*


To be clear, nothing anyone has put forward included any suggestion that the TiVo should record a lower priority recording instead of a higher priority recording.

The only confusion that might arise is if someone hit their OnePass listing for a show and can't find an episode they expected to have been recorded -- but isn't yet listed because the TiVo opted to schedule a later airing so that the entire episode could be captured. And this confusion, which would be cleared-up by looking at the OnePass' "Upcoming" episodes listing, would need to be balanced against the confusion and angst at the user finding the episode where it's supposed to be, when it's supposed to be there... but it's missing up to 5 minutes from its beginning or ending.

p.s. With the advent of OnePass and its "My Episodes" and "All Episodes" views, it would be exceedingly handy if TiVo were to find a way to reflect the near-term To Do List entries for a given show within these views. For example, an upcoming episode to be recorded could have the light blue double-checkmark icon, to indicate it's scheduled to be recorded. (Going further, probably too fur, for the "All Episodes" listing, they could even include Trashcan icons(?) for episodes that have been deleted and are still available in the "Recently Deleted" folder.)


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## lpwcomp

krkaufman said:


> Yes, that would be a complicated feature -- except it's a feature that already exists and functions great... if Overlap Protection is disabled.


It doesn't work like that. At no point does it look ahead in the guide data to see if there is a later showing of an episode that will not be recorded due to a conflict. The reason it gets recorded later is that when it is encountered in the guide data, it knows that it is an episode that hasn't already been scheduled to record. That's why it will be recorded even if the rerun is days or weeks later.

The scheduler couldn't possibly look ahead and make the decision about clipping for the simple reason that it might not yet even have the information about the future showing.


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## lpwcomp

krkaufman said:


> To be clear, nothing anyone has put forward included any suggestion that the TiVo should record a lower priority recording instead of a higher priority recording.


To be clear, that is _*exactly*_ what some people have been asking for since shortly after the first TiVos were purchased.


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## krkaufman

lpwcomp said:


> To be clear, that is _*exactly*_ what some people have been asking for since shortly after the first TiVos were purchased.


Well, okay; my apologies. I was speaking for what I was seeing in this thread, not a statement scoped to include all opinions put forth since the beginning of TiVo time.


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## krkaufman

So far so good. The option to configure Overlap Protection is still in place on the Roamio series following the 20.5.6 update, per this post.


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## krkaufman

TiVoSupport_Sarah said:


> TiVocustomers, We are currently investigating this issue with not being able to disable the clipping of the recordings. Can you please private message me with your TiVo service number off of the Bolt so that we can add your information to the list of TiVo boxes that are experiencing this issue?


Dear TiVoSupport_Sarah,

Are you still collecting TSNs associated with this issue?

Would you like non-BOLT owners who want this feature restored in the BOLT to PM you a DVR TSN, as well?

(e.g. I know I returned my BOLT because it lacked the ability to disable Overlap Protection, and we stuck with oiur base Roamio; and if this configuration option remains absent, I don't see myself upgrading any of our Roamio Pros to BOLT Pros, if/when that product becomes available.)


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## lew

Enabling clipping by default might make sense. Making to a little hard to change might make sense. People who pad on a per program basis probably want clipping.

Not giving us the option of disabling clipping is crazy.

Tivo needs an "advanced setting" screen. Maybe some "secret" keystrokes to access.

Let us disable clipping. Let us set up a second "one pass". Let us keep the buffer when tivo starts a recording. An option to have a longer buffer.


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## TiVoSupport_Sarah

*TiVo Community,
I will investigate this and return with my findings.
Stay Tuned.*


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## ad301

I'd have thought we might hear something on this by now.


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## Dan203

There is an option now for this in 20.5.9. :up:


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## innocentfreak

Nice.


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## astrohip

Dan203 said:


> There is an option now for this in 20.5.9. :up:


They listened.


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## tkb

Dan203 said:


> There is an option now for this in 20.5.9. :up:


My Bolt is at 20.5.6.RC21-USC-11-849
How do I get the update?


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## aaronwt

tkb said:


> My Bolt is at 20.5.6.RC21-USC-11-849
> How do I get the update?


I signed up my boxes for the "TiVo Priority Update Request (20.5.9)" list. And the next day my TiVos downloaded it.

https://www.tivo.com/priority


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