# Questions About Routing Directivo to Entire House



## tvn (Sep 29, 2002)

OK. Eleven years with DirecTV and the new home is all wired. Three DirecTivos stacked and ready to be routed. I've been basically running the same unit to all the rooms, and changing the RF Out connections between the machines as needed to watch Now Playing on each. Any suggestions on a better RF modulation system? I have two feeds coming into the bedroom with my R10, but i don't want to put a separate unit in each room. I also have the remote xtenders, so I'm good there. Each Tivo has its own Remote Address. Any thoughts of improving my routing? Tired of re-patching everytime something I want is on the other machine.

(1) DVR80
(2) R10

6 rooms wired


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## BlindLemonLarry (Jun 19, 2004)

tvn said:


> OK. Eleven years with DirecTV and the new home is all wired. Three DirecTivos stacked and ready to be routed. I've been basically running the same unit to all the rooms, and changing the RF Out connections between the machines as needed to watch Now Playing on each. Any suggestions on a better RF modulation system? I have two feeds coming into the bedroom with my R10, but i don't want to put a separate unit in each room. I also have the remote xtenders, so I'm good there. Each Tivo has its own Remote Address. Any thoughts of improving my routing? Tired of re-patching everytime something I want is on the other machine.


I have both a DirecTivo and a ReplayTV, the Tivo records DTV content and the Replay strictly records OTA content. The composite video and analog audio outputs of both boxes connect to the two line inputs of my VCR, and the RF out of the VCR feeds my global house cable wiring. (Which Time Warner was nice enough to install for the previous owner of the house, but now serves nicely to distribute my DTV.  ) Upstairs TV sets stay tuned to channel three.

With a remote extender upstairs, I can control either PVR from my bedroom or office, and remotely select one or the other by switching line inputs on the downstairs VCR. It's all handled transparently by my re-programmed All-In-One remote...the correct VCR input is chosen automatically when I select Tivo or Replay.


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## tvn (Sep 29, 2002)

I like your set-up, but do you know how hard it is two find a VCR with two RCA outputs? I know i had a Toshiba in the late '90's and the SLVR Sony had them. But today?


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## tvn (Sep 29, 2002)

Come to think of it, the front input and the rear input could do it. Sounds like a plan. Thanks.


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## BlindLemonLarry (Jun 19, 2004)

tvn said:


> Come to think of it, the front input and the rear input.


Bingo!

I can't remember the last time I touched a VHS tape. At least my VCR can still serve as a video switcher/RF modulator. And oh yeah, a clock.


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## rlj5242 (Dec 20, 2000)

Do a search here for "channel modulator". A lot of people use products from ChannelPlus, Sony and Dayton.

-Robert


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## Tom J (Jan 25, 2004)

tvn said:


> Any suggestions on a better RF modulation system?


I have 4 D*Tivo's stacked in a rack. The A/V or component outputs of each go to 4 main TV's for the best quality. In addition, an output of each Tivo goes to four modulators with their outputs combined together and distributed to all 8 TV's in the house.

I used 2 ChannelPlus 3025 dual modulators cascading the output of one into the other. I chose Ch's 110, 114, 120, and 124. The 3025 has an integrated IR path so it may or may not work with your remote extenders. I used the 5V IR targets which work great.

The one caveat with this setup is that each RF feed should be a separate run instead of a single feed split where convenient. This has its advantages which I'll expand upon if you want.

I'm a broadcast engineer and I guess wiring my house has been my hobby. From the beginning I wanted a reliable, high-quality distribution system but it also needed to be cost effective. I bought a 3025 to evaluate it. I took it apart to research the design and I can say I'm sold on it for consumer use. In any event, its worked great for a year.

Tom J


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## tvn (Sep 29, 2002)

Thanks, Tom J. My installer recommended this and I was concerned about sending an RF signal (good but not great). And hear I am now looking to do it. I will probably keep my digital connections with my better unit and route RF to the entire house. I will look into the product you mentioned. Thanks.


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## Tom J (Jan 25, 2004)

tvn said:


> ...I was concerned about sending an RF signal (good but not great).


Exactly.

Ten years ago we had noisy analog cable systems and even worse VHS quality. The cheap RF modulators that were (and still are) available made things worse. Using RF to hook up or distribute signals in the home deservedly got a very bad bad rap.

Things have changed. The core frequency agile modulator chip used in the 3025 is used on a number of consumer and commercial modulators. So you may find equivalent results on another brand.

Like I mentioned, I have the component outputs of my two HR10-250's feeding two HDTV's. These TV's also have these same Tivo's available as RF channels. Many times I have watched TV for several hours without noticing that I'm using the tuner. Inherently lazy, I usually leave the Video/RF selection where its at anymore (unless I want to watch HD). The bottom line for me is that for standard definition DirecTV video, I don't notice any difference.

The purists will poo-poo the very idea of this. Nevertheless, RF is a very cost effective and efficient method of distribution. The convienience of watching any of the four Tivo's in the kitchen or anywhere else is great. Plus, not to complicate the OT, I have four security cameras that are modulated and therefore are also easily available for monitoring from any TV. :up:

Tom J


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## 15968 (Jan 29, 2002)

I highly recommend these RF modulators:

http://www.beachaudio.com/product_info.php?products_id=21129

I have two and they work better than I ever expected AND they send a stereo signal (most of your RF Modulators only send a combined mono signal over the cable so your distant TVs do not get a stereo signal). On top of all that these are cheap (compared to most tunable RF Modulators).


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## Tom J (Jan 25, 2004)

Hmmmm interesting. 

MikeF, can you measure the width of that across the front. I would be curious how many would fit in a rack panel. And also the height? Their spec sheet doesn't list the dimensions.

CE Labs makes some good stuff. I have a CE LAbs AV501HD distribution amp and am also quite happy with it.

Tom J


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## tvn (Sep 29, 2002)

Thanks, Mike F. Can you explain the routing. Details are tough to find on-line. The Channel Plus was easy two a/v inputs and x amount of RF outs. How does this one work? Thanks in advance.


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## 15968 (Jan 29, 2002)

Tom J said:


> MikeF, can you measure the width of that across the front. I would be curious how many would fit in a rack panel. And also the height? Their spec sheet doesn't list the dimensions.


4" wide x 1.5" tall x 3.75" deep (so they are tiny IMO)

The front has two buttons for changing the channel that it modulates on and then the LED. The back has 3 RCA inputs (Left, Right, Video) and one Coax output.

I have 2 of these boxes (one set to Ch 59, and the other to Ch 62) with a DTiVo hooked to each. The coax from each of these goes to a 4 way splitter (combiner in this case) with my OTA antenna feeding and a Radio Shack Ch 3 Stereo modulator I bought years ago (I'll probably replace that with another one of these CE Labs boxes) on the 4th leg. The output from the splitter then goes to my home run area to feed out to the house.

One thing that surprised me with these boxes is the strength of the output. I used to have some cheapo modulators and then had an amp behind them to boost the signal. I had to pull that amp out of my path as these are putting out a nice strong signal already. Very cool .


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## tvn (Sep 29, 2002)

Mike F, I have to say, right now, with no switching ability, my RF out to my living room projector looks just as good as my earlier S-Video connection directly from the R10. I know I can route that one feed everywhere. I'm afraid going RCA out and combining and then going RF to the home run will hurt the quality, especially using the channels on the UHF band. Do you agree? I tried using the two inputs on a VCR and going RF out and I think the video was a little fuzzy. Is RF out directly to RF in as good as it gets, albeit without the switchability. I don't mind having the same signal in all the rooms at once. Or does the modulator improve the signal? Again, I appreciate your insight.


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## lutton (Mar 10, 2004)

tvn: check parts express - http://www.partsexpress.com/ - they have modulators and other goodies. I got a three input modulator which works well for me.

Also, they're in Ohio so ground shipping only takes a day or two.


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## 15968 (Jan 29, 2002)

tvn said:


> Mike F, I have to say, right now, with no switching ability, my RF out to my living room projector looks just as good as my earlier S-Video connection directly from the R10. I know I can route that one feed everywhere. I'm afraid going RCA out and combining and then going RF to the home run will hurt the quality, especially using the channels on the UHF band. Do you agree? I tried using the two inputs on a VCR and going RF out and I think the video was a little fuzzy. Is RF out directly to RF in as good as it gets, albeit without the switchability. I don't mind having the same signal in all the rooms at once. Or does the modulator improve the signal? Again, I appreciate your insight.


What you are trying to accomplish may be different than what I was trying to accomplish. With the CE Labs 1001st, the picture quality is not as good as from straight S video, but it is much better than from a VCR. Most VCR's have very crappy RF modulators in them as they are only meant to be hooked up with a 3' or shorter cable to the tv (never meant to be amplified and ran all over the house). This box is meant for longer runs, and produces a picture close to the output of the RCA video feed I think (even with it getting converted to RF and combined with sound). I haven't done a side by side test, but I think the output from this box is better than what I remember the RF output straight from the TiVo had.

For me, I needed a way to allow any TV in the house watch the 3 DTiVos I have hooked up by simply switching the channel the set was on. All of my units are in the Media Center on the main big screen tv in our Family Room so on that set, all connections are direct into an amp and then fed into the TV (so straight S-Video picture). All other TV's (except a rear projection set in the Living Room) are just smaller TV's so video quality isn't as critical. With that said, the 52" rear projection tv in the living room gets a picuture off of these that is not perfect, but its better than what the neighbor gets on his Cable (non digital channels). Very little grain or interference. I may not have the discriminating eye that others have, but friends of ours just the other night commented how nice the picture looked on our remote big screen and started asking about switching to satellite (so that was just through coax. I blew them away when I showed them the picture direct from the DTiVo later  ).

You could always buy one of these and try it. If it doesn't work, then send it back. Beach Audio seemed to have a decent return policy (although I haven't tried to return anything to them yet).


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## tvn (Sep 29, 2002)

Mike F, Thanks. If it is better than what I achieved through the VCR, then I'll give it a shot. I'm really tiring of switching the wires between the Tivos. Last night i went back and forth a few times. I'm going to buy one this week and I'll let you know. Thanks.


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## BradHouser (Mar 25, 2002)

Is the RF out on the box mono or MTS stereo? I always assumed it was mono, similar to most VCRs. You stereo TV in the other room, if you have one, may end up with mono.


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## 15968 (Jan 29, 2002)

BradHouser said:


> Is the RF out on the box mono or MTS stereo? I always assumed it was mono, similar to most VCRs. You stereo TV in the other room, if you have one, may end up with mono.


Most RF Modulators that I've seen combine the left and right and put out a simple mono signal. What impressed me (and still impresses me) is the CE Labs 1001st puts out full stereo. My remote TVs that detect stereo have the stereo light now on these channels, and the sound is definetly stereo (I can definetly hear left to right type effects. 24 now sounds awesome on the living room TV if I don't want to go down to the main family room tv).

NOTE: CE Labs also makes a 1001f unit. That one is NOT stereo as I understand it but a combined output (Parts express sells that unit and I don't think the 1001st). The price on the 1001st from Beach Audio really can't be beat (I have nothing to do with these guys, just a happy customer).


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Great timing oin this thread. I am looking into the prewiring for a house to be constructed over the next few months. RIght now, I am planning on running 3 coax lines to each location, in most locations, 2 lines will be for a DirecTivo (2 HR10-250 whose location is fixed and 1 older SDDVR40 upgraded that can go anywhere right now) and one line will be for OTA antenna. Can I use a modulator at each D TiVo and put all the signals onto the OTA antenna wire or should I just go ahead and run a seperate wire (though budget is a little bit of a factor, this stuff adds up quick). 

My preference would be to keep each receiver located near the TV it serves for the better direct connection but still have the ability to watch remotely. I would not mind needing to go to the other receiver to change a setting to make this possible.

Another reason not to spend a ton extra on it is that this is all essentially temporary for now anyway as I will have 2 Cat 5e runs to each location as well that I am assuming will be used for networking Series 3 units (or if DirecTv ges their act together, their new DVR's) in a year or 2.


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## willardcpa (Feb 23, 2001)

I've been using a couple of Sony MRD-D1's for several years and they work fine. They each support two sets of RCA inputs, can be daisy chained together, and have a remote IR sensor that can be mounted by the target TVs.


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## 15968 (Jan 29, 2002)

Lee L said:


> Great timing oin this thread. I am looking into the prewiring for a house to be constructed over the next few months. RIght now, I am planning on running 3 coax lines to each location, in most locations, 2 lines will be for a DirecTivo (2 HR10-250 whose location is fixed and 1 older SDDVR40 upgraded that can go anywhere right now) and one line will be for OTA antenna. Can I use a modulator at each D TiVo and put all the signals onto the OTA antenna wire or should I just go ahead and run a seperate wire (though budget is a little bit of a factor, this stuff adds up quick).


Yes, it adds up, but please remember that its cheaper to do it now than it is after the house is built. I still kick myself for scrimping and only running 2 and 3 lines to certain rooms and a single line to others. The flexibility is really worth the extra cost, and in terms of a mortgage... whats a few thousand dollars? 

Personally I wish I would have done a minimum of 3 RG6 cables to every room. Probably overkill for some rooms, but I've already moved where my office used to be and where our primary TV room is, so my original plans are all shot to pieces just after 3 - 4 years in the house (this doesn't even begin to talk about how I cheaped myself out of proper Cat5e runs).

With DirecTiVos (and even R15s for that matter if we are talking future) you know you need 2 RG6's dedicated to sending sat signal. A third run will give you OTA. but the problem is now getting the modulated signal back from the TiVos to your distribution point to integrate it into the OTA cable (I don't think you can combine it and run it back down the same line that you are feeding on. I've always used the lines one way... Its an output or an input line, but maybe I'm wrong in thinking that way). You could use diplexors in each room to send the clear single channel back to your distribution point over one of the sat lines, then diplex it and combine it (and the other sat feeds) there (this is similar to what I'm doing), and then feed that back out on the 3rd cable (OTA cable) to the rooms. Use amped splitters at your distribution point to boost the signal back up due to the length of the runs (but remember all of this starts degrading the signal too, so boosting can boost noise). I'm assuming here, that all of your cable is being "home runned" to a central location (closet or basement)?

Another option is to go out on eBay and look for the Avcast stuff. I've never used it, but its an interesting concept. Not sure if its better or worse than the Ce Labs Modulator though. Supposedly the Avcast stuff can combine and send signals on a single line (so your cabling is more like a network backbone). Again, I've never used it so can't say waht the quality of this is like (and its expensive since there is only one place selling it, and he only sells the kits and not the individual pieces).

Its really hard when you are building a house as you are desinging based on best guess of what will work. Good luck, and if at all possible, try not to be cheap (I know you have to stay in budget, but don't scrimp when you really don't have too).


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## nova tivo (Apr 12, 2002)

I have a CE1001st too (also purchased from Beach Audio which had the best price) and can speak to its stereo quality, price, and ease of use.

One quirk on the thing is the mode button to switch from cable to tv signal modulated output. If you want to change modes, you have to push and hold the mode button for 8 seconds on some versions of it. This isn't noted in the short manual and apparently results in lots of tech support calls. CELabs said they planned to shorten the time necessary to change modes to only three seconds in future runs.

Odd quirk that has no impact on functionality, but something to remember so you don't think it's broken.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

MikeF said:


> With DirecTiVos (and even R15s for that matter if we are talking future) you know you need 2 RG6's dedicated to sending sat signal. A third run will give you OTA. but the problem is now getting the modulated signal back from the TiVos to your distribution point to integrate it into the OTA cable (I don't think you can combine it and run it back down the same line that you are feeding on. I've always used the lines one way... Its an output or an input line, but maybe I'm wrong in thinking that way). You could use diplexors in each room to send the clear single channel back to your distribution point over one of the sat lines, then diplex it and combine it (and the other sat feeds) there (this is similar to what I'm doing), and then feed that back out on the 3rd cable (OTA cable) to the rooms. Use amped splitters at your distribution point to boost the signal back up due to the length of the runs (but remember all of this starts degrading the signal too, so boosting can boost noise). I'm assuming here, that all of your cable is being "home runned" to a central location (closet or basement)?


This is the key question now. Can I use teh cable as a multi way backbone or should it be one way. This would be much easier if I could locate all teh TiVo's in teh main system or the wiring closet, but since I have HD Tivos in 2 locations (and it will be 3 when I finish the theater room on teh 3rd floor) I need to keep them with the TV;s they are serving.

To me it seems like it should work in theory but the devil is in the details.


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## venatir (Mar 8, 2006)

I have a lot to do until I will have my theater room ready... but I am curios ... how many TiVos somebody can have with a single dish ?


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## Paul_PDX (Nov 12, 2002)

Funny to run into this thread -- I happened to order a CE1001st and the specs didn't really answer some questions

Do I need a combiner to add the output onto my COAX? (ie
Does it have RCA + RF in and RF out or just RCA in and RF out?)

Does it output an amplified signal or does it need to be externally amplified?

I am adding to to a setup with a Sony(Channel Plus) MRD-D1 and it will make for my third modulated channel.


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## SeattleCarl (Nov 11, 2005)

venatir said:


> I have a lot to do until I will have my theater room ready... but I am curios ... how many TiVos somebody can have with a single dish ?


Each DirecTV receiver or dvr tuner requires a separate feed either from the dish, or from a multiswitch.

I have seen posts where people have had as many as 32 active outputs in their house through a combination of stacked multiswitches.

I'm not sure there is a technical limit, but you will probably run into some type of limit from DirecTV (I've heard 8, but don't know that for certain).

Carl


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## SeattleCarl (Nov 11, 2005)

Paul_PDX said:


> Funny to run into this thread -- I happened to order a CE1001st and the specs didn't really answer some questions
> 
> Do I need a combiner to add the output onto my COAX? (ie
> Does it have RCA + RF in and RF out or just RCA in and RF out?)
> ...


According to one of the earlier posts in this thread, the 1001ST has audio and video inputs, and rf output. No rf input.

From reading the various posts, it sounds like the output signal level is sufficient for most distribution needs without further amplification.

I just ordered 2 of these, and a Channel Plus 3025. Looking forward to combining some DVR and security camera signals.

Carl


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## Vin (Jun 13, 2003)

MikeF said:


> A third run will give you OTA. but the problem is now getting the modulated signal back from the TiVos to your distribution point to integrate it into the OTA cable (I don't think you can combine it and run it back down the same line that you are feeding on. I've always used the lines one way... Its an output or an input line, but maybe I'm wrong in thinking that way).


Mike, you CAN send the the RF signal back through the same line, i.e., one of the sat lines that's feeding the DTiVo.

The way to do this is to feed the sat line from it's source, e.g., the multiswitch, into the single-port side of a diplexor (diplexor #1). Then run a cable from the sat leg of that diplexor into the single-port side of another diplexor (diplexor #2) that will be located near the DTiVo and route that line from the sat leg of that diplexor (#2) into one of the inputs of the DTiVo.

Now, connect the RF output from the DTiVo to the antenna leg of that diplexor (#2) which will then be carried by the same sat line that's feeding that diplexor (#2).

The antenna leg (of diplexor #1) at the multiswitch will now carry the signal from the DTiVo for distribution.


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## 15968 (Jan 29, 2002)

Vin said:


> The antenna leg (of diplexor #1) at the multiswitch will now carry the signal from the DTiVo for distribution.


Right, I understand that as that is what I'm doing (and what I suggested above, or I think thats what I meant to say  ). The question I wasn't sure of was if you could inject a modulated signal into the cable run and would that go out to the TVs in the rest of the house (so you are combining OTA and modulated signals in multiple places, not sending to a central distribution point. So almost like a network backbone where computers talk bidirectionally on a single line). From my understanding you can't (or shouldn't do that) So I've always done cables so they are either inputs or outputs (inputs going to a distribution area, and outputs going to the remote TVs). Still not sure if I'm making that clear.

As I stated above, I know the Avcast system does seem to advertise you can do that with their stuff, but again, I've never seen the quality of it, or if it really works that way.


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## nova tivo (Apr 12, 2002)

Paul_PDX said:


> Funny to run into this thread -- I happened to order a CE1001st and the specs didn't really answer some questions
> 
> Do I need a combiner to add the output onto my COAX? (ie
> Does it have RCA + RF in and RF out or just RCA in and RF out?)
> ...


The unit has three RCA in (video, left + right audio) jacks and one coax out only. By itself the unit will not combine with another signal. The signal is amplified out enough that I simply bought a $2.00 RCA coax splitter from Home Depot to use as a combiner instead. No degradation in quality that I can tell.

See my earlier post above about an odd quirk about the 1001st to keep in mind.


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## Thespis (Apr 24, 2003)

Here's another endorsment for the ChannelPlus 3025. Mine works great and the amplified outputs are great for long runs. I cheaped out and bought the RCA pyramid IR extenders. They're starting to die after about 4 years so I'm about to go to these:
http://www.weaknees.com/rf_remote_details.php
I've got two DTivos on the line inputs and an Xbox on a Ch. 3/4 modulator outputting to the RF input. 
Ch. 3 - Xbox
Ch. 54 - Wife's Tivo
Ch. 59 - My Tivo
Works great...


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## lutton (Mar 10, 2004)

I use the 3025 too. Two A/V inputs, 5 RF outputs, plus an RF input to feed in OTA/Cable/additional modulators.

It only has two IR repeater outputs, but I use one to feed a 'hotlink' IR system inside my equipment closet.


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## Vin (Jun 13, 2003)

MikeF said:


> Right, I understand that as that is what I'm doing (and what I suggested above, or I think thats what I meant to say  ). The question I wasn't sure of was if you could inject a modulated signal into the cable run and would that go out to the TVs in the rest of the house (so you are combining OTA and modulated signals in multiple places, not sending to a central distribution point. So almost like a network backbone where computers talk bidirectionally on a single line). From my understanding you can't (or shouldn't do that) So I've always done cables so they are either inputs or outputs (inputs going to a distribution area, and outputs going to the remote TVs). Still not sure if I'm making that clear.


Mike, re-reading your post, you were perfectly clear in what you were asking. The confusion was due to the two (or maybe it was three) glasses of wine I had before I replied.....sorry about that! 

Unfortunately, now that I understand the question I don't have an answer.

Cheers!


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## tvn (Sep 29, 2002)

I can vouch for the IR Extender that you looked at on weakknees. I have it in the garage next to two R10's (with unique remote addresses). I will spend the extra $25 for another battery so I don't have to keep switching the battery amongst the two remotes. But this thing is A+ and no receiver to look ugly in the viewing room.


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