# Tired of MOCA problems with Roamio



## jhjones75 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have a 6 tuner roamio with 3 minis. Pretty consistently, like 3 times a week, the network goes down. None of the minis can connect over MOCA. Stream to iPad still works and the roamio still works. It takes about 4 reboots for the roamio to start working again. 

I've noticed that the minis can all talk to each other by looking at network diags. They just can't see the roamio. And can't get an IP. 

I've tried setting all to static but that does no good. The issue seems to be with the MOCA controller in the roamio. All coax is brand new runs in the house as of about 18 months ago. I've put in a POE, set the adapters to statically use a channel, rebooted everything, etc. 

Question 1: if I put in a standalone MOCA adapter on the network, what changes would I need to make to the roamio? Just unplug the Ethernet and tell it to just do MOCA? Will the adapter create the network?

Question 2: if the MOCA adapter in the roamio is truly the problem, would this help anyway?

Any other ideas? I'm about over it.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

jhjones75 said:


> Question 1: if I put in a standalone MOCA adapter on the network, what changes would I need to make to the roamio? Just unplug the Ethernet and tell it to just do MOCA? Will the adapter create the network?


Sad to see, but this is how I'd approach the switchover:

First, just *reset the Roamio to only use Ethernet*, reboot, and make sure the setting stuck. (TiVo networking can be fickle, so I prefer this approach.)

Then, yes, you can *use the MoCA adapter to create your MoCA network*. You just need to connect it to the same coax lines as your Roamio and Minis, and get its Ethernet port linked back to your router's Ethernet LAN ports. (same as your Roamio has been)

Once the MoCA adapter is in place, pull the Ethernet cable from the Roamio and *reconfigure the Roamio to "Connect using MoCA."* (If the Roamio fails to connect via MoCA, you could bail and revert it to Ethernet, and then continue with the Minis.)

With the Roamio back online, *reboot your Minis*. Power down your Minis and then, after a few minutes, bring one of them back online and verify it has network connectivity and can reach the Roamio. If successful, bring all the Minis online.



jhjones75 said:


> Question 2: if the MOCA adapter in the roamio is truly the problem, would this help anyway?


Yes and no. It may help you see if the MoCA circuit in the Roamio is faulty, and, if so, you'd need a MoCA adapter for the Minis to communicate, anyway. Or it may just work and you'll be satisfied with that.



jhjones75 said:


> Any other ideas? I'm about over it.


It sounds like you're worn-out w/ MoCA troubleshooting; otherwise, I'd be suggesting a review of your setup, starting with checking what your devices are reporting for MoCA stats, when MoCA is functioning properly, that is.
See: Checking MoCA Connection Quality​


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

If you're so inclined, I'd also be interested in how your devices connect (what coax components, network gear, etc, including model info where possible). Normally I'd also beg for a diagram.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

I'd also add that I've had MoCa problems over the years caused by loose connections. Double check all of the connections on your splitters, Roamio, etc.


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## Oldphile (Apr 25, 2016)

Also look at splitters. I added a mini to my Bolt. I followed all of the TIVO trouble shooting recommendations, but the mini couldn't find the Bolt. My bad, the splitter I was using was a diplexer that previously I was using to split QAM cable from MOCA. The low pass went to the TV and the high pass to a MOCA connected WiFi hot spot. I eliminated the splitter and moved the hot spot to another cable outlet. My cable company will scramble all TV channels at the end of this month, so no need for a connection to the TV. Scrambled channels is why I added the mini. With the diplexer, the mini connected and registered with the TIVO service, but could not find the bolt.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

fyodor said:


> I'd also add that I've had MoCa problems over the years caused by loose connections. Double check all of the connections on your splitters, Roamio, etc.


I'm hoping the MoCA stats might provide insight on whether there's an issue with the coax plant, and, if so, where.


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## jhjones75 (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks for all the help. I'll answer what I can:

All my TX/RX PHY rates are between 270 and 280. Looking at the diag log I do get a "moca bandwidth too low" error pretty regularly. Don't know why.

I'm not super good with diagrams, so I'll try to describe. If that doesn't work I can try to go back and do one.

1) At the tap coming into the house there's a POE filter. There's a splitter here. One run goes into the Roamio room (described in #2), the other goes into the garage.
2) The Roamio room goes into the Comcast router, outbound coax from that goes into the Roamio. There's a Netgear WNDR4500 router here, which has ports inbound from Comcast, outbound to the Roamio, an xbox one, a Vera router. It's also the wireless router
3) The garage cable is immediately run to a splitter that's connected to another splitter (the cable guy did this). Between these 2 splitters there are runs going to 5 different outlets. Only 3 of those 5 have anything connected to them, and those are all Mini's.


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## jhjones75 (Oct 18, 2011)

Other stat-wise:

TX Power Estimate: all say 0.00
RX Power Estimate: 0.370 to 0.390
Packets received with errors are all 0

4 nodes on the network. Channel 21.


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## jhjones75 (Oct 18, 2011)

I've checked all the cable connections multiple times to verify everything is tight.

I'll try adding in the adapter today to see if that helps.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

I'd try replacing the cable modem pass-through with a MoCA compliant splitter and making sure that your initial splitter is MoCA compliant or at least supports 0-2GHZ.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

jhjones75 said:


> Thanks for all the help. I'll answer what I can:
> 
> All my TX/RX PHY rates are between 270 and 280. Looking at the diag log I do get a "moca bandwidth too low" error pretty regularly. Don't know why.
> 
> ...


Wow,
A diagram would really be helpful even if it is just a hand diagram. 
On #2, since there are no Comcast gateways/cable modems which have a coax out, how are you getting coax to the Roamio? Is there another splitter in that room with the Roamio?
From your description, you sound like you have a combo modem and router from Comcast. Has this been configured in "bridge mode" so it is only acting as a plain cable modem? How are the other 2 routers configured? Which router of the 3 is actually doing the routing? Is the one "Vera" router just working as a wireless access point? 
Do you think it would be possible to combine the 2 splitters in the garage into just one splitter with just the number of ports you are actually using. If possible, this alone would likely improve your MoCA performance.


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## Oldphile (Apr 25, 2016)

jhjones75 said:


> I've checked all the cable connections multiple times to verify everything is tight.
> 
> I'll try adding in the adapter today to see if that helps.


Instead of adding an adapter, I would try splitting the signal in the Roamio room, one leg to your cable modem and one to your Roamio. I'm not familiar with your cable modem, but mine doesn't even have an OUT coax connector. It may not be a good idea to pass the MOCA signal through the cable modem. I used a diplexer instead of a splitter. I think there is less loss with the diplexer. Also, my cable company technician said that they had problems with the modem if the modem was seeing the MOCA signal. The diplexer should keep the MOCA signal out of the modem.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

jhjones75 said:


> Other stat-wise:
> 
> TX Power Estimate: all say *0.00*
> RX Power Estimate: 0.370 to 0.390.


Possible power range is -30.0 dBm (max reduction) to +3 dBm (max boost); at 0 dBm, your setup is neither reducing nor boosting power, which means there's plenty of room for improvement but the stats don't explain the periodic outages.



jhjones75 said:


> 4 nodes on the network. *Channel 21*.


I'm not loving using Channel 21 for your MoCA channel, especially since you're having issues, and without knowing that you're using known-good MoCA splitters. Basically, the higher the MoCA channel, the higher the attenuation of your MoCA signal and the less likely that standard cable splitters will get the job done.

A quick recap of TiVo's MoCA channel numbers and their associated frequencies (plus MoCA spec channel IDs w/in parens):

15: 1150 MHz (D1)
17: 1200 MHz (D2)
19: 1250 MHz (D3)
21: 1300 MHz (D4)
23: 1350 MHz (D5)
25: 1400 MHz (D6)
27: 1450 Mhz (D7)
29: 1500 MHz (D8)​


jhjones75 said:


> 2) The Roamio room goes into the *Comcast router, outbound coax from that goes into the Roamio*.


This is highly suspicious. I've never seen a cable modem or cable gateway with a coax output; but if such a device does exist, I would be extremely surprised if the device were to pass the MoCA frequencies without attenuation, possibly severe.

My first suggestion would be to follow fyodor's and Oldphile's suggestions, and remove the pass-through connection to the Roamio and, instead, use a MoCA-compliant 2-way splitter to connect the modem and Roamio to the coax lines.

After making this change, do a quick check of your MoCA stats to see if there's any improvement (primarily in the power levels).

Personally, if your MoCA-creating Roamio is connected as a pass-through via the modem, my money is on the pass-through as the cause of the periodic outages... but we shall see.



jhjones75 said:


> 2) The Roamio room goes into the *Comcast router*...


Can you provide the model number for your Comcast-supplied modem/gateway? _ (I'm wondering whether it's one of their MoCA-capable gateways, and, if so, whether it might not be worthwhile putting a MoCA filter on its coax input, after you've split the connections, to ensure it can't affect your MoCA network in the event that Comcast does something to trigger the gateways MoCA network.)_



jhjones75 said:


> 3) The garage cable is immediately run to a *splitter that's connected to another splitter* (the cable guy did this). Between these 2 splitters there are runs going to 5 different outlets. *Only 3 of those 5 have anything connected to them*, and those are all Mini's.


If you want to keep all the runs to your rooms connected (fearing you'll have forgotten any disconnections down the road when you try to use one of the disabled runs), you'll want to cap the wall outlets for the unused runs with 75-ohm terminators.

Otherwise, you could do as fcfc2 suggested and right-size the splitter setup in the garage to only as many outputs as your need, using a MoCA-compliant splitter. It sounds like you may have 2 3-way splitters in the garage; if so, you could remove the second splitter and just connect your 3 active runs to the remaining connected splitter.

Fingers crossed, here...


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## jhjones75 (Oct 18, 2011)

Sorry, it'd been a while since I'd dug into the connection at the Roamio. There is a splitter right there where the signal comes into the room. It splits there into the Roamio and the Comcast router. 

A Vera router is neither here nor there. It's a Zwave protocol router for smart connected things like light switches and stuff.

Well I tried to connect my standalone moca adapter today. All the minis were able to see each other and connect out to the internet, but couldn't talk to the Roamio. I redid the network setup on the roamio several times and was never able to get anyone to talk to it (yes, I told it to NOT create the moca network). I'm at a loss. I finally gave up and reconnected everything back up the way it was before and everything works. For now.

I can look for splitters to replace the ones in the garage, but all of this used to work just fine and this issue started a few months ago, so doubt it's that.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

jhjones75 said:


> Sorry, it'd been a while since I'd dug into the connection at the Roamio. There is a splitter right there where the signal comes into the room. It splits there into the Roamio and the Comcast router.


I'm still interested in the model number of your modem/gateway, if/when you have time.



jhjones75 said:


> Well I tried to connect my standalone moca adapter today. All the minis were able to see each other and connect out to the internet, but couldn't talk to the Roamio. I redid the network setup on the roamio several times and was never able to get anyone to talk to it (yes, I told it to NOT create the moca network).


Was this with the Roamio connected via Ethernet or as a MoCA client?

Is your Netgear router (WNDR4500) using the latest firmware? Have you tried temporarily resetting the router to factory defaults? (Note that you can backup the current configuration and then restore it after testing.)

And you don't have any other Ethernet switches, right?



jhjones75 said:


> I can look for splitters to replace the ones in the garage, but all of this used to work just fine and this issue started a few months ago, so doubt it's that.


Coax components can go bad, and your 0 dBm power level seems like more power than should be needed for your relatively simple setup.* Which makes me interested in the specs/model of your splitters.
*_ I've attached a diagram of what I interpreted to be your setup. Let me know what I got wrong._​


jhjones75 said:


> I can look for splitters to replace the ones in the garage, but all of this used to work just fine and this issue started a few months ago, so doubt it's that.


I'd look to replace all your splitters, starting with the one splitting between the modem and Roamio.

Many people are saying that Holland's MoCA splitters (like these) or the Verizon FiOS MoCA 2.0-rated splitters (here, here) work well.



krkaufman said:


> Quick recap of MoCA channels and associated frequencies:
> 15: 1150 MHz
> 17: 1200 MHz
> 19: 1250 MHz
> ...


Though, again, until you're sure you have known-good MoCA splitters in place, I'd try channel 15 for your MoCA network, rather than 21.

.


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## jhjones75 (Oct 18, 2011)

The cable modem is a SurfBoard SB6141

That was with the Roamio as both a client and on Ethernet. I tried as just a client with the coax plugged in first and then tried plugging in the Ethernet to see if it would make a diff

Netgear at latest firmware, Alltho I have not tried resetting it back to default

No other network gear. 

When I reset everything today I set it all back to auto and looks like it went back to channel 15. I also took out one of the minis and trying process of elimination to see if I have any bad gear that could be gumming up the works. If the problem recurs I will try cycling thru the rest of the minis. Worth a shot at least. 

Since then the TX power is showing -9 and RX is showing 0.497.


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## jhjones75 (Oct 18, 2011)

Oh, and your diagram looks spot on. 

I'll look at the splitters, thanks for all the help


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

jhjones75 said:


> The cable modem is a SurfBoard SB6141


Ok, good; that's MoCA-compatible. (i.e. no need for a bonus prophylactic MoCA filter )



jhjones75 said:


> That was with the Roamio as both a client and on Ethernet. I tried as just a client with the coax plugged in first and then tried plugging in the Ethernet to see if it would make a diff
> 
> Netgear at latest firmware, Alltho I have not tried resetting it back to default
> 
> No other network gear.


A number of possibilities that could be researched and/or tried on the network front:

reset router to defaults
try different router (as a test)
try standalone Ethernet switch, rather than built-in switch in router, as connection point for TiVo gear
research *IGMP Snooping* setting in Netgear router (some people have resolved odd intermittent networking issues with their Minis by disabling this option; see here, here, here)



jhjones75 said:


> When I reset everything today I set it all back to auto and looks like it went back to channel 15. I also took out one of the minis ...
> 
> Since then the TX power is showing -9 and RX is showing 0.497.


Well, that power setting is heading in the right direction. As a test, you could bump the channel back up to 21 or higher and see how the power value changes. (1) Doing so would perhaps indicate which factor contributed more to the power change from 0 to -9 dBm, the channel switch to 15 or removal of the Mini; and (2) having the additional data may be useful/educational when compared to readings after your splitters are upgraded to MoCA-compliant components.



jhjones75 said:


> Oh, and your diagram looks spot on.
> 
> I'll look at the splitters


Good. And as you'd experienced, MoCA really should work, as it's a simple configuration.

Upgrading to known-good MoCA components helped this TCFer with similar symptoms, recently (though they didn't have a PoE MoCA filter in place, originally, so a much more glaring divergence from recommended). Still, it was a case where their setup had worked for a year+, until it didn't.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

See also (re: IGMP setting): http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=11006280


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## jhjones75 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have actually seen that setting before when I've googled this issue. iGMP proxying is disabled on the router


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