# Tom, I'm so sorry



## ergodic (Mar 8, 2008)

To Tom Rogers:

Tom, I'm sorry. I'm leaving.

For years, I've been a loyal TiVo subscriber and one of your ardent disciples. We have three TiVos. But I could wait no longer.

I don't know what you're up to, I'll admit I don't even vaguely understand your business model. I signed up over a year ago to be notified about the "exciting" renewed partnership with DirecTV. Hello??? Technology that moves this slowly seems completely doomed.

I really wish TiVo the very best, but I'm done. And if I'm done, you have a serious problem on your hands.

DirecTV has installed whole-home DVRs and satellite receivers for us. They work well. We can watch anything anywhere. No more of the cable company sending somebody out to "fix" the TiVo cablecards who's never seen a CableCard or a TiVo, or who doesn't know what "pairing" is.

Still, it is plain these are not TiVo boxes with their indefinable "Q-factor". Like the iPhone, there's just something about the innate TiVo design that sets it far apart from the knockoffs. You can't explain it to people - part of your problem I'd say. But, they're good enough. I'll keep the lifetime TiVo plugged in for Netflix and Amazon - something that DirecTV doesn't yet have if ever. But the others are in the attic now.

And I've found there are very real advantages. With the DECA built-in I don't need ethernet jacks. The new DVRs will stream to any box in the house - two at a time while recording two others; that's 4 recording streams everywhere. No more impossible "tuning adapters" and switched digital video. I can even initiate a recording from a receiver, and I can watch recordings streamed directly to my PC. No more "transfers." Truthfully, I have to tell you: it's awfully sweet.

And no guide subscription fees either. By the time I cost it all out vs. the old cable and the fees, I'm saving quite a bit of money and with better programming options.

I recognize you've been dreadfully ripped off. Betrayed by former partners. Stymied by a miserably corrupted legal process. Customers flummoxed by cable operators that would just as soon you fail and disappear. I hope you ultimately prevail, though I have to say sitting on the outside that doesn't look too likely.

But in the end, there's nothing I can do about your problems. Maybe you should just become like Rambus - a building full of lawyers and patents. However it comes to pass, I'd still love to see that TiVo design in everything.

In the meantime Tom, I'm good with what I've now got. And after a month with the whole-house DVRs I have to say: even with your latest TiVo offerings, things in TiVo-land seem to be getting awfully long in the tooth.

And the sun looks to be setting kind of fast.

Best of success to you.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Um, if you switched to DirecTV, how can you call yourself a "loyal" TiVo subscriber?


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

It's funny how some people see value in over spending for a solution but to each their own.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

ergodic said:


> To Tom Rogers:
> 
> Tom, I'm sorry. I'm leaving.
> 
> Best of success to you.


Enough is enough, we are your people TiVo and closest friend. The enablers who make the excuses for your behavior are not your friends. Now is the time for an intervention that only a friend can say and do as a last chance effort to save the other friend in the hope of saying, dear friend, listen. It is time for your CEO (not ours) and his cronies to go!


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## ergodic (Mar 8, 2008)

I spent $348 for the DirecTV equipment and setup with a discount. That includes two whole-home DVRs and three HD receivers. The initial monthly is $98, going up after the 6 months to $145/mo for the full package - HBO, Cinemax, NFL, Showtime, Starz, local channels, everything.

By contrast, I was paying Cox $140/mo for considerably less programming, and $12.95/mo to TiVo for guide subscription. If we got another TiVo as we were thinking about, that would increase another $6 for a home subscription. And I'm honestly not seeing a really bright future for TiVo.

You can do the math with that however you wish - your mileage may vary as they say. For us, given the benefits of DTV and dumping cable it was an easy decision. I had put it off for a very long time hoping that TiVo would get their act together. They haven't.

One of the issues is that a new high-capacity TiVo Premier was going to be $500 plus service. In one of our existing TiVos the cableco could never get a second card or an MS card to pair, so we've had a 1-channel TiVo there. I didn't want to spend $500 only to find out I'd be back in that boat with the new one. TiVo isn't going to take the box back because Cox cable is a bunch of noodleheads.

I spent some money up front, fair point. But in return I have no more stupid cable, no more stupid cablecards, no more stupid tuning adapters, no more stupid wireless adapters, no more stupid, endless support calls with the cableco, better programming, whole-house DVR and streaming etc.. I'm very, very happy with what I bought for my money. My one regret is that the TiVos won't work with any of it.

But if you believe I overspent to get what I wanted, so be it.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

ergodic said:


> In the meantime Tom, I'm good with what I've now got. And after a month with the whole-house DVRs I have to say: even with your latest TiVo offerings, things in TiVo-land seem to be getting awfully long in the tooth.


Until DirecTV upgrades the software on your DVR, and blows away your recordings - literally. Loved the programming and hated the hardware. Just google it and see. They do not have a great track record.

Switched to TiVo and in two solid years not a single missed recording.
Let me repeat: _NOT A SINGLE MISSED RECORDING._

You will not experience that with DirecTV.

Piece of advice, get an account at DBSTalk.com. The best forum for satellite and lots of insiders - a great bunch of people. And you'll need this forum:
DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion

And the stickies at the top are for people reporting problems with the current software release(s) - you'll need that.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Ok, I believe it.



ergodic said:


> But if you believe I overspent to get what I wanted, so be it.


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

TiVo and DirecTV make nice -- sort of


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

ThAbtO said:


> TiVo and DirecTV make nice -- sort of


Here is the byline for that article. Please note the date.

TiVo and DirecTV make nice -- sort of
By Paul Miller posted Apr 12th 2006 3:06PM

and BTW that was a three year deal, if its not done it almost is.


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## AlexFL (Oct 2, 2010)

I bought my first TiVo 9 years ago. Over the years I was forced to try other things because I moved to an apartment complex that didn't allow satellite dishes. During those 2 long years I tried Bright House and I couldn't wait to drop them as quickly as I could. Finally in 2005 I returned to Directv and was able to buy the one of the last Directivo units that Directv sold, which as of today is still running. Providers are competing tremendously for people's business these days but they have always lacked to have a DVR unit that could compare to TiVo's.

I recently switched to Verizon Fios and I couldn't be more excited to know that I was able to use a TiVo unit with their service. Verizon's DVR still lacks a lot of refinement, and one thing that DVR shares with Directv's is the slooowwww response that you can differentiate right away the moment you use a TiVo.

In my opinion, Directv's prices have gone up significantly over the last 3-5 years. Before I think it was a no brainer comparing cable to them, as cable was so much higher, but things have changed. I've kept Directv all this time primarily for the NFL season package but quite honestly almost always ended up watching the Red Zone channel. So guess what, the moment I found out that I could buy a TiVo Premiere and use it with Fios I was sold. I think people should first consider their provider because sometimes there a better choices out there.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

JWThiers said:


> Here is the byline for that article. Please note the date.
> 
> TiVo and DirecTV make nice -- sort of
> By Paul Miller posted Apr 12th 2006 3:06PM
> ...


That's not just old news, it's very old news. In September 2008 they announced another extension and plans to produce a new DirecTV TiVo box. That box has been repeatedly delayed and is now targeted for early 2011.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Gotta say, I'm a long time TiVo guy. Over the years off the top of my head I've had an S1 , 3 S1 Directivos, 1 S2 Directvo, an HDirectivo, a DVD-R Tivo, an S2-DT and 2 S3's. 

But i'm about where ergodic is. I've given tivo's as gifts and "sold" friends and family on tivo for years and years. The past couple years I cant justify telling anyone to buy one so i keep my mouth shut.

Personally I'm not going back to directv but at the moment I'm not upgrading my S3's. I'm a gadget guy and always looking for the next thing- as you can see I've upgraded my tivo's a bit over the years. It's anathema to me to use a smartphone for a year as I upgrade so much. But TO ME the new Tivo offerings just aren't worth the $$ lock in for the few new features compared to the not finished HD port and potential unofficial beta testing.

I was half excited for the premier some time back when it was announced but since Day 1 it came along and people described it I'm just sitting around waiting to have a reason to be bothered to upgrade. 

I'll sit on my S3's and the DVD-R tivo that I'm currently using till something breaks or Tivo or someone else gives me a reason to move on. I'm excited by googletv- their android on phones is like tivo was to me 7-8 years ago- it's exciting and fun to use. So I can't wait to see what it's like on a tv. Can't figure out what to do without a DVR though but at this point with Hulu plus and netflix and the other web sources the only reason i need 'to have live tv to record is sports. I can buy nfl and mlb subscribtions on my android phone (or pc for mlb at least) so maybe Google can work out a deal with them for google tv. If that's the case maybe I can live without a DVR with everything is just streamed from some mothership. 

So I'm not jumping ship, but I'm waiting for the ship to get fixed or at some point i'll have to jump in a life boat or transfer to a new ship. 

Tivo very well could be my future- but it just as likely may not be. You would have had to pry my tivo's out of my "cold dead fingers" years back. Now that's just not the case.


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## wisny (Sep 6, 2010)

MichaelK said:


> ... I'm excited by googletv- their android on phones is like tivo was to me 7-8 years ago- it's exciting and fun to use. So I can't wait to see what it's like on a tv. Can't figure out what to do without a DVR though but at this point with Hulu plus and netflix and the other web sources the only reason i need 'to have live tv to record is sports. I can buy nfl and mlb subscribtions on my android phone (or pc for mlb at least) so maybe Google can work out a deal with them for google tv. If that's the case maybe I can live without a DVR with everything is just streamed from some mothership.


GoogleTV sounds super cool, and like it would be such a great fit with TiVo. I wonder if they'll work out a deal in the future?


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

Actually Tivo would take the box back. 30 day guarantee.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ergodic said:


> By contrast, I was paying Cox $140/mo for considerably less programming, and $12.95/mo to TiVo for guide subscription. If we got another TiVo as we were thinking about, that would increase another $6 for a home subscription.
> 
> One of the issues is that a new high-capacity TiVo Premier was going to be $500 plus service. In one of our existing TiVos the cableco could never get a second card or an MS card to pair, so we've had a 1-channel TiVo there.


I thought you had a TiVo with lifetime and the others were in the attic.
It would be 9$ a month for MSD monthly on another TiVo
and I do not buy you had two Scard and could not pair the second one either.

also why in the world would pay retail for the TiVo if you had so many TiVo DVRs you had some in the attic.

Your story is full of holes and slanted as well. Off to ignore thread now.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Your story is full of holes and slanted as well. Off to ignore thread now.


agreed.


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## ergodic (Mar 8, 2008)

And when it stops working after 30 days because Cox screws up the pairing, what do I do?

This strategic problem is mostly not under TiVo's control and not of their making. But they're stuck with the situation. Which means so am I. They are tied to cable companies which really, REALLY don't like them, compete with them, and can't and don't want to support cablecards, which if you haven't noticed, has devolved to being virtually exclusively TiVo.

Criticize me if it makes you feel better - I really don't mind and I suppose I shouldn't expect a warm reception on a Tivo forum with my post. But you're missing the point, which has very little to do with me. I really didn't post here to annoy anyone, and I apologize if it was taken that way.

I stayed with TiVo for the last 8 years. Despite my investment I gave up last month. And if _I'm_ giving up, I assure you there are a whole lot of others who are too. And a whole lot more who aren't even bothering to look. A couple of them are friends. I registered over a year for the DTV "exciting renewed partnership" updates, and not even an email from TiVo or a change to that page on tivo.com the last time I checked. Who the hell is running that place?

If you think I overpaid, I was looking at $300-$500 for a Premier PLUS more monthly service? Come on. Ask yourself candidly how many people you think are really willing to shell that out when the cablecos, FIOS, uVerse, satellite companies, etc. now give it to you for $5/month or so with multiroom. This translates to a serious, serious business problem.

I don't know why'd you think my "story is full of holes," unless you just want to. I give you my word it's accurate. I have 3 TiVos: an HD, a Series 3 and a series 2. The HD and 2 are lifetime, the HD is monthly. The monthly is hitting my credit card for $12.95/mo., every month. I was told it would be $18.95/mo to switch to household monthly if I changed out the HD lifetime for a monthly premier XL. There may be discounts available, I didn't bother to investigate further.

And yes, three Cox technicians were in my house on three occasions over a two month period to try and get both cablecards to work after those great "tuning adapters" went in last year. And they all gave up. TiVo says it's them (which I thoroughly believe). They say it's the TiVo. I spent hours on the phone with both sides, stuck in the middle. Works with one card, doesn't work with two. According to the diagnostic screens nothing wrong with the TiVo, just won't pair that second card. Any card - they tried 5.

And if you haven't ever been in that position, I sincerely hope you never are. Because there's absolutely nothing you can do. They get to point their fingers at each other and walk away from the problem, making it yours. That is one of TiVos core strategic market problems. The only thing I could do is buy a new TiVo and hope the cableco would get those cards/TA to work. I wasn't willing to do go there. Don't want to believe me anyway? Well OK, but why? The word for that would seem to be "denial."

I will say the tuning adapters and SDV conversion caused me other non-TiVo-related problems as well. I'd come to my PC in the morning to scroll through the market open on BeyondTV and get to watch "The Price Is Right" because my cable box had reverted to channel 2 when I wasn't there at 3AM to tell it not to. At least Cox gets to jam more worthless junk channels on their system and claim "more channels than satellite." Abuse, abuse, abuse.

And yes, as I said, I've placed the lifetime HD on a separate input for Netflix and Amazon, which DTV doesn't currently offer, and I assume never will. The others are, as I said, in the attic. If you're in So. Cal. shoot me a message and you're welcome to come over, have a beer, and see them for yourself. I'll sell you my series 3 if you want it - I put in a 1TB hard drive after the original one failed (and lost our programs as my wife still reminds me.)

Understand: I still love the TiVos. I miss the great design even though it's falling behind. But more important, staying with TiVo means staying with this awful cable company, and TiVo: a company in very questionable market condition, as well as spending yet more money. And I just can't take any more of the abuse. DTV is nice, not TiVo, but nice enough. And it does have some real plusses if you haven't looked. I just wish it worked with TiVos.

My hope, and the reason for the post, would be that TiVo will get their act together (especially as I'm long the stock as well as some Jan. '11 LEAPs  ) Maybe partner with Google. Get a room full of lawyers with a pot of money and beat the **** out of the corporacrats who stole their technology and are trying, successfully it seems, to kill them off to hide the evidence. I'll certainly come back if something's offered, even if I have to change out the boxes and spend more again. But my suspicion is that the vultures are now just waiting them out.

TiVo is looking less like an iPhone and more like an Amiga to me.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I do find it funny that people buy into this $5 notion. The price of mirroring is just the tip of it. They completely hide the price within their other fees.



ergodic said:


> If you think I overpaid, I was looking at $300-$500 for a Premier PLUS more monthly service? Come on. Ask yourself candidly how many people you think are really willing to shell that out when the cablecos, FIOS, uVerse, satellite companies, etc. now give it to you for $5/month or so with multiroom. This translates to a serious, serious business problem.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ergodic said:


> If you think I overpaid, I was looking at $300-$500 for a Premier PLUS more monthly service? Come on. Ask yourself candidly how many people you think are really willing to shell that out when the cablecos, FIOS, uVerse, satellite companies, etc. now give it to you for $5/month or so with multiroom. This translates to a serious, serious business problem.
> 
> I don't know why'd you think my "story is full of holes," unless you just want to. I give you my word it's accurate. I have 3 TiVos: an HD, a Series 3 and a series 2. The HD and 2 are lifetime, the HD is monthly. The monthly is hitting my credit card for $12.95/mo., every month. I was told it would be $18.95/mo to switch to household monthly if I changed out the HD lifetime for a monthly premier XL. There may be discounts available, I didn't bother to investigate further.


The reason your story seems so full of holes is you quote full retail prices which wouldn't be the case if you have 3 TiVos with upgrade offers. The current upgrade offer for lifetime users is $449+$200 for lifetime otherwise you can pick up a Premiere XL for $299 + $299 for lifetime if you shop around or read the Premiere forum.

Since you have 2 Lifetime units, the service automatically drops to 9.95 yet you quote 12.95 the subscription cost of having only one TiVo. You also can't change out a HD Lifetime to a Premiere XL much less for some $18.95 monthly charges which also sounds like you actually have a monthly TiVo and an old TiVo with the old grandfathered monthly fees of $6.95. This obviously can't be possible since you have 3 TiVos with 2 lifetime one being a series 2 and one being a TiVo HD. The third TiVo then is a series 3 or was it a TiVo HD.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

In order for his sub costs to make sense, his monthly Tivo has to be the qualifying unit, and he got the other 2 Tivos lifetimed with the discount (or bought them used already with lifetime).
If he gets a new Tivo to replace the monthly unit, it would become the qualifying unit, and he would still have to pay full sub price.
Tivos that got lifetimed with MSD are not eligible to become qualifying units.


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## ergodic (Mar 8, 2008)

It had been $6.95, then jumped to $12.95 after I had to change credit cards. I called TiVo when that happened and they declined to reduce it back to the old rate which they told me was incorrectly leftover from a promotion. That is all the information I have to share.

There may very well be discounts or promotions or upgrades I didn't seek out. And this was a back in summer so things may have changed. Certainly if I spent the time, or cajoled and yelled and threatened to leave I could have gotten something better. But... why? That doesn't make the "story full of holes." It just makes me tired of it all. Not good for TiVo.

Anyway, I assure you that's what I'm being charged and what they quoted me to have two monthly TiVos. When I called they did not offer anything else. If that were the only issue I honestly wouldn't have cared much, but it isn't close to the top. For me at least, TiVo now has much bigger problems. The point I was attempting to make. But then again I'm also afraid the denial that I sense in some here is also representative of the TiVo boardroom. But maybe somebody inside TiVo is listening to reality and will hear it, who knows?

I long ago learned that people who want to believe what they want to believe will believe exactly that. I know I can't do anything about that. But in case anyone wishes to chew on actual facts instead, here is a paste I just took from our mytivo page (with a few of the codes xxxx'ed out for obvious reasons on a public forum

But again, if you think $6/mo +/- is the issue, you've missed my point entirely. As long as TiVo produces hardware that exists and operates entirely at the mercy of cablecos, they - and their users like me - seem hopelessly doomed.

TiVo only has three strategic directions now that I can see: (1) continue to try to squeeze revenue out of a declining customer base, (2) go out of business and let the buzzards feed on the pieces, or (3) get bought by somebody with the deep resources to really deploy it properly and get back control of product patents and licensing. I hope it is #3, but I see no signs of it and so I gave up. Sorry.

*****
MCR Tivo HD
652-0001-XXXX-XXXX 
05/05/2009	TiVo Package, Product Lifetime N/A	This DVR already has Product Lifetime service
Future plans cannot be added.

BR Tivo3
648-0001-XXXX-XXXX
12/19/2006	The TiVo Service, Month to Month N/A	No future plan selected.	
Schedule a future plan

Suite Tivo2
540-0001-XXXX-XXXX
12/31/2005	TiVo Lifetime Service N/A	This DVR already has Product Lifetime service
Future plans cannot be added.

****
Current billing information
Payment plan:The TiVo Service, Month to Month
Account Status:Account in Good Standing
Payment plan start dateec 19, 2009
Credit card on file:5XXX XXXX XXXX 4201
Expiration date:Oct 20XX
Card holder's name: XXXX
Current balance due: $0.00
Action	Date	Transaction information	Amount	Sales tax	Total
Billed Sep 19, 2010	The TiVo Service, Month to Month	$12.95	$0.00	$12.95
Settled Sep 20, 2010	Charged to: 5XXX XXXX XXXX 4201	$12.95	$0.00	($12.95)
Billed Aug 19, 2010	The TiVo Service, Month to Month	$12.95	$0.00	$12.95
Settled Aug 20, 2010	Charged to: 5XXX XXXX XXXX 4201	$12.95	$0.00	($12.95)
Billed Jul 19, 2010	The TiVo Service, Month to Month	$12.95	$0.00	$12.95
Settled Jul 20, 2010	Charged to: 5XXX XXXX XXXX 4201	$12.95	$0.00	($12.95)
Billed Jun 19, 2010	The TiVo Service, Month to Month	$12.95	$0.00	$12.95
Settled Jun 20, 2010	Charged to: 5XXX XXXX XXXX 4201	$12.95	$0.00	($12.95)


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Instead of crucifying and crusading against TiVo customers and their disappointment to keep your state of denial going, we know you must work for TiVo or know someone who is working there. You do realize all of TiVo jobs as well as the company's immediate and long time future is in danger? 

If you must defend against the sincere feeling of complete disgust and betrayal sent out like a message in a bottle in an open letter to where clearly responsibility of TiVo failures must rest, you're not doing any TiVo owner any favors. 

And if you are related to TiVo CEO Tom Rogers or any of his small group of insiders you have my applogies. 

However, you don't have a right to expect people here to cheer or ignore or reward TiVo's failures. There are too many of us concerned here. Also there are too many other jobs at risk at TiVo. Good people who's policies did not set the company on a downhill spiral and who's jobs still can be save even in this economy if there is a change toward new, fresh, and strong tech leadership at TiVo.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

steve614 said:


> Tivos that got lifetimed with MSD are not eligible to become qualifying units.


You are either wrong on that or I got lucky when I transferred my first TiVo HD over to my account.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I bought an ATV. And am amazed at something so tiny can do so much and do it well.

Brain says TV is so close to changing and yet so far.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> You are either wrong on that or I got lucky when I transferred my first TiVo HD over to my account.


Possibly...
My knowledge of that is not first hand, but it does make sense as to something TiVo would implement.


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

I don't understand how people continually apologize for Tivo the way they do. It does not help the situation people. The DirecTV situation is not an isolated incident. Tivo takes longer than any other company to bring products to market. The only answer is that they don't care or they are incompetent.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

ergodic said:


> To Tom Rogers:
> 
> Tom, I'm sorry. I'm leaving.
> 
> ...


Fundamentally, TiVo likes to believe they are a DVR software company, and want to get their software on as many provider boxes they can. Sometimes it takes a bit of work.

They have, to that end, the Standalone DVR business which they license their software to individual end users, which to achieve that, they have their own hardware platform. However that platform, to be affordably built, can only work with somewhat open standards, such as ATSC and cablecard, or be an SD recorder there is no driving market for.



> And I've found there are very real advantages. With the DECA built-in I don't need ethernet jacks.


TiVo is supposedly working on MoCA.


> And no guide subscription fees either. By the time I cost it all out vs. the old cable and the fees, I'm saving quite a bit of money and with better programming options.


The EPG cost is built into your satellite service.

TiVo has no other service, so has to include guide data into their service fee, which for the most part is a software license.


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## ergodic (Mar 8, 2008)

I don't disagree with anything you say. Just to me that it all spells bad news for TiVo in A.D. 2010.

You don't have to be a Wharton MBA to know that hoping for strategic success by burning cash and counting on uncertain and endless legal proceedings with much stronger and deeper-pocketed adversaries is not the cornerstone of a sound, long-term business strategy.

At down at around $9 / shr now, the market seems to agree with that. And when you're a money-burning tech company that never shows a profit your stock very much equates to your business. So the recent decline in share price is really another very big, big problem for them.

This is strictly my personal opinion: both as a (soon-to-be former) customer and an investor, I think TiVo's entire senior management team needs to be replaced, and a solid buyer found for the technology and the operations before it is allowed to pass as another footnote in the history of innovative technology. But my fear is it may be already too late for that.

I would be thrilled to be proven wrong. DTV boxes are OK, but they're no TiVos. And if something between TiVo and DTV does comes out tomorrow, I'd cheerfully pay DTV all over again just to swap them out.

But, Tom, as I said, I'm not counting on you any more. I think it's time you pull your ripcord.


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

I like Tivo, but the Premier doesn't have much appeal. I can do without HD Menus. Not enough to replace my HD and S3 units. There just aren't enough new features to be worth having to buy a new lifetime sub and replacement costs for 2 units. I will stick to Tivo for the present time because there really isn't anything else out there that exactly duplicates its features. I left Cox and the SDV/Tuning adapter issues behind when I got Fios. My tivos don't reboot or lose channels at all anymore. Directv isn't an option....it loses signals in storms and during snow, plus I Can't get bundled internet with it. All this being said, tivo needs some new innovation...nothing has really changed much since the Series 3 came out over 4 years ago. Why not have multiroom streaming like the moxi? And coordinated season passes if you have more than one Tivo...its silly they can't talk to each other in case of conflicts. Anyways...for now...Tivo...but open to other choices


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ergodic said:


> At down at around $9 / shr now, the market seems to agree with that. And when you're a money-burning tech company that never shows a profit your stock very much equates to your business. So the recent decline in share price is really another very big, big problem for them.
> 
> This is strictly my personal opinion: both as a (soon-to-be former) customer and an investor, I think TiVo's entire senior management team needs to be replaced, and a solid buyer found for the technology and the operations before it is allowed to pass as another footnote in the history of innovative technology. But my fear is it may be already too late for that.


Um, $9 is good since the average for TiVo has been around $6 - $7 for the past decade. Not really seeing a decline other than when the price corrected itself after the shorts got in and out during the most "recent" court activity...


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## Hogues92 (Jan 8, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> Um, $9 is good since the average for TiVo has been around $6 - $7 for the past decade.


That's incorrect. The average monthly close for Tivo stock for the past decade is 9.07 according to Yahoo (which, coincidentally, is it's close on Friday). It has fluctuated but has had a high in the upper $17's this year and a low in the mid $7's.


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## ergodic (Mar 8, 2008)

orangeboy:

The 12-month high for TiVo is something above $18. But I completely agree with you that the stock has done more or less nothing over the last decade, as well as returned nothing. (_Believe me_, I know.)

And hardly the only public company with a seat in that boat, though most others for a quite different reason. Anyway I gather you believe $9/shr is overall "good," and an endoresement of TiVo's management. I don't. Fair enough.

But that Tom Rogers _personally_ will take home something like $8 million in total compensation this year alone for this performance I see as nothing but disgraceful.

Blame it on "shorts" if you like, or whatever. Management these days always finds some outside excuse for failure while taking personal credit for success. But always cashing those nice, enormous checks either way.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

TolloNodre said:


> Until DirecTV upgrades the software on your DVR, and blows away your recordings - literally. Loved the programming and hated the hardware. Just google it and see. They do not have a great track record.
> 
> Switched to TiVo and in two solid years not a single missed recording.
> Let me repeat: _NOT A SINGLE MISSED RECORDING._
> ...


I've been running the new HR series for 3+ years now. I've never seen a software download delete my shows. And I can't remember the last time it failed to record a show. I don'ty doubt your problems but they are not typical.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

The OP's story, while irritating to fan boys, is supported by the sad fact that TiVo has been bleeding stand-alone customers for quite some time and is in a free fall of more and more subscribers leaving, just as the OP is doing, and perhaps that is why it hurts the fan boys so much: because it is true.

It's not to beat up on TiVo, but to simply share why it might be that TiVo is losing so many subs so fast. Companies go out of business not just because they lose customers, but because when they realize they are losing customers, they do something to _stop losing customers_, then do more to _gain customers_, as Dish Network did when it suffered a loss of subs, but quickly got to work to change that adding an impressive number or subs--over 200,000--in one of the subsequent quarters, more then even DirecTV in that same quarter.

However, our intrepid TiVo is in a very bad place to regain the customers they have lost for reasons correctly cited by the OP, without the hostility the fan boys exhibitd, that cable cos. seem to do all they can to make the TiVo experience frustrating and negative, and seeing as they are competitors, that makes sense. CableLabs created the stupid Cable Card. Of course, they don't want it to work well in a TiVo. So, it isn't all TiVO's fault. This is precisely why the Dish/Echostar lawsuit is everything to TiVo's survival: it would give TiVo the leverage to allow the switch to a software only company licensing it to as many providers as possible (under threat of a lawsuit for violating TiVo patents), and that is how it would make money, never having to deal with the hardware or stand-alone subscribers ever again.

We can disagree with the OP, but can't really beat up on him as his points are valid. All we can do is wish him the best and if he should find things at DirecTV not as green as he hoped, there are other providers, or perhaps, reviving his TiVo's currently in the attic and a return to the "ba-doop."


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## wisny (Sep 6, 2010)

Series3Sub said:


> The OP's story, while irritating to fan boys, is supported by the sad fact that TiVo has been bleeding stand-alone customers for quite some time and is in a free fall of more and more subscribers leaving, just as the OP is doing, and perhaps that is why it hurts the fan boys so much: because it is true.
> 
> It's not to beat up on TiVo, but to simply share why it might be that TiVo is losing so many subs so fast. Companies go out of business not just because they lose customers, but because when they realize they are losing customers, they do something to _stop losing customers_, then do more to _gain customers_, as Dish Network did when it suffered a loss of subs, but quickly got to work to change that adding an impressive number or subs--over 200,000--in one of the subsequent quarters, more then even DirecTV in that same quarter.
> 
> ...


Cable companies are losing subscribers (in 2010), complaints to bbb's re: satellite companies soared in 2010, and noone has posted any numbers showing that cable and/or satellite dvr subscriptions (as opposed to just regular subscriptions) are on the rise. I did ask in one of these threads if anyone had numbers on dvr cable/satellite subs, but noone responded. Telco TV is on the rise, and I didn't see anything about lots of complaints with telco tv, either.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-20017868-93.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38663384/

http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2010/08/subscriber-growth-suddenly-stops-for-cable-tv-industry.ars


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

I had 2 DirectTV Tivo hr10-250s and one of the original DirecTV Tivo's (SD). I loved them (when they weren't dying only hardware worse for reliability is the XBox360) and they were definitely the best at the time. I think we had one replaced 2 times under warrant and the other once. Then when they died again DirecTV wanted my dad to pay for a new MP4 dish or install or something (can't remember). He decided to move to FIOS TV (already had Internet and phone from them).

Where I moved 4 years ago to it wasn't easy to get LOS for DirecTV and dealing with the board would have been a PIA. So I went back to cable. Their SA 8300HD PVR SUCKS. SUCKS I say. I went through 3 or 4 of them before I got one that last more then a year. Their service at most was/is passable. I had a signal that was too hot or something that caused audio dropouts. Multiple visits half assed attempts to fix. No follow through etc...

Anyway when I moved last week I wanted to go with DirecTV and their whole house PVR along with a cable modem (only real option) for Internet. However wife wanted a real landline (which turns out we might need for the gate to work 100&#37; otherwise we have to go down the block to let guests in). Another reason she wanted it was NEWS12 channel which we really don't even get anyway. She also didn't want a dish on the patio/deck on a tripod or stand.

We ended up getting the triple play extended (sort of) for another year (maybe). Cost will work out about the same as whole house DirecTV PVR (two HD ones) and cable modem from the Cable co.

Costs are about the same..

One option we have no home phone. 

DirecTV for TV (better PVR then Cable CO) record upto 4 shows at once watch on either TV. 
Cable modem for Internet (only real option)
No home phone (other then the occasional guest at the gate not an issue)

Other option..

Triple play from Cablevision for the next year.
Crappy PVR. No box on bedroom TV so limited channels (saves a few bucks will be free supposedly in Feb though). Can only record 2 shows unless I pay for second PVR. Shows tied to PVR. 

Can't use a Tivo box at all on the DirecTV system. And if I get a Tivo HD Premier and use it with cable I miss out on some channels (Switch Digital Video).

FIOS not an option at this time (and probably not for at least a year).

What does all this mean? Someone who had Tivo and thought it was great has not been a customer in 4+ years. Even then I was a DirecTV customer (less money in Tivo's pocket). I would seriously like to use a dual tuner HD Tivo with my TV. I would buy one tomorrow if it was reasonably priced ($500 is ok) AND worked properly with my CableTV and received all channels. There is no product for me and there are probably millions in a similar situation.

But, with SDTV (I think Cablevision has the tuner out as of a couple months ago) and all the nonsense getting it setup and the cards activated and all that I just can't be bothered. 

At the end of the day when I get home from work and want to watch my shows I can deal with crappy interface if it just works. And for the most part it does. I don't want to do a ton of troubleshooting. I don't want to call the cable co and TIVO and go through all that.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wisny said:


> Cable companies are losing subscribers (in 2010), complaints to bbb's re: satellite companies soared in 2010, and noone has posted any numbers showing that cable and/or satellite dvr subscriptions (as opposed to just regular subscriptions) are on the rise.


wow - the management at TiVo is so bad they have messed up the whole industry


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

When Circuit City was going out of business I actually stopped by trying to score a Tivo HD (for cheap). So I was / am interested in the product. Just doesn't seem like the offer a product that works well with my two TV provider options.


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## WeBoat (Nov 6, 2002)

I just want to throw in my worthless 2 cents.

But I agree with the originator of this thread. Look at my join date. I've had every TiVo so far. All upgraded and two with the ORIGINAL lifetimes. The ones from 2000 that can still be transfered. 

I've given over 20 as gifts and hooked my entire family. I also can no longer recommend them. I want an new XL but just can't justify it with the problems. 

Now I'm buying a new home and it appears that I'll end up with the DirecTV boxes. Maybe the moxi, but I'm very doubtful it will be another set of TiVos.

Anyway. Just my worthless two cents.


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## wisny (Sep 6, 2010)

WeBoat said:


> I just want to throw in my worthless 2 cents.
> 
> But I agree with the originator of this thread. Look at my join date. I've had every TiVo so far. All upgraded and two with the ORIGINAL lifetimes. The ones from 2000 that can still be transfered.
> 
> ...


Can I ask why you like Moxi or DTV better than TiVo? I researched the Moxi, it sounds pretty neat, but most of the articles I read said Moxi is inferior to TiVo, and cable dvr is inferior to both Moxi and TiVo. No mention of DTV tho:



> May 28, 2010
> *DVR Shootout: TiVo Premiere XL vs. Moxi HD DVR *
> 
> (snip ... ) As an unproven newcomer, Moxi is in the unenviable position of not only having to be better than the DVRs provided by cable, but also superior to TiVo's latest offerings. In at least this iteration of the product, Moxi exceeds what cable provides, but falls short of topping TiVo's newest model, the Premiere XL.
> ...


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## wisny (Sep 6, 2010)

jcondon said:


> When Circuit City was going out of business I actually stopped by trying to score a Tivo HD (for cheap). So I was / am interested in the product. Just doesn't seem like the offer a product that works well with my two TV provider options.


Watch woot.com :up: I got a new HD XL there over the summer for $179. They had refurbed sometime last spring, too. I also just saw Roku boxes there a couple weeks ago. It seems like entertainment media devices show up intermittently.


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## wisny (Sep 6, 2010)

ZeoTiVo said:


> wow - the management at TiVo is so bad they have messed up the whole industry


Damn .... BADDD TiVo!


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

wisny said:


> Can I ask why you like Moxi or DTV better than TiVo? I researched the Moxi, it sounds pretty neat, but most of the articles I read said Moxi is inferior to TiVo, and cable dvr is inferior to both Moxi and TiVo. No mention of DTV tho:


I too am close to switching to Moxi. I have one on order to try. My reasons are more to do with cost. With my two TiVos and one cable box, I pay around $22 to Comcast for "additional outlet fees" and cable cards. Then I pay TiVo another $19 per month for annual service. If I switch to Moxi and turn in my Comcast set top box I can save over $40 per month with a Moxi and two Moxi mates. It would take me two years to break even with the initial cost of the Moxis, less if I sell the two TiVos.


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## wisny (Sep 6, 2010)

HazelW said:


> I too am close to switching to Moxi. I have one on order to try. My reasons are more to do with cost. With my two TiVos and one cable box, I pay around $22 to Comcast for "additional outlet fees" and cable cards. Then I pay TiVo another $19 per month for annual service. If I switch to Moxi and turn in my Comcast set top box I can save over $40 per month with a Moxi and two Moxi mates. It would take me two years to break even with the initial cost of the Moxis, less if I sell the two TiVos.


Those 'add'l outlet fees' are so obnoxious. Can't stand those!

Thx for your answer.


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## WeBoat (Nov 6, 2002)

wisny said:


> Can I ask why you like Moxi or DTV better than TiVo? I researched the Moxi, it sounds pretty neat, but most of the articles I read said Moxi is inferior to TiVo, and cable dvr is inferior to both Moxi and TiVo. No mention of DTV tho:


I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I just know I've VERY disappointed in the ongoing waiting for TiVo to get it's act together. I just have a feeling they are missing the bus.

Currently I use a 4x4 matrix HDMI switch for this house for mrv, but in the new house that is not practical. That's what's making the directv HR attractive. As to moxi, they at least seem to be trying.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

WeBoat said:


> As to moxi, they at least seem to be trying.


Moxi design has the benefit of no legacy - so they went digital with a chip that had 3 digital tuners. The emphasis on digital without OTA even gave them a lot easier design to incorporate other hardware features.

be aware that Digeo the company that makes the Moxi model had sales poor enough that it sold itself off to some MSO supplier.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

wisny said:


> Cable companies are losing subscribers (in 2010), complaints to bbb's re: satellite companies soared in 2010, and noone has posted any numbers showing that cable and/or satellite dvr subscriptions (as opposed to just regular subscriptions) are on the rise. I did ask in one of these threads if anyone had numbers on dvr cable/satellite subs, but noone responded. Telco TV is on the rise, and I didn't see anything about lots of complaints with telco tv, either.


Eh the numbers dropped 0.2% this quarter compared to previous quarter. The news the past x quarters was an sub increase which means subs are still up compared to year earlier. and remember economy ain't the greatest right now.

ON top of it the forecast in the top link you provided says pay tv subscriptions are only going to increase the next 5 years.

PRetty obvious FIOS and ATT Will take customers at the expense of satellite and cable. Still the entire industry still just going gradually up in sub numbers.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

seattlewendell said:


> I don't understand how people continually apologize for Tivo the way they do. It does not help the situation people. The DirecTV situation is not an isolated incident. Tivo takes longer than any other company to bring products to market. The only answer is that they don't care or they are incompetent.


OR are at the mercy of the cable/satellite companies who dictate what Tivo can and cannot do.

Tivo's fault that their DVR doesn't have on-demand while their cable competition does?

Tivo's fault their DVR needs a tuner for SDV while cable's company's don't?

Tivo's fault they were locked out of satellite market?

Now don't get me wrong. Not here to praise Tivo as geniuses, but you can't ignore these realities which hurt Tivo and which Tivo can do nothing about.

ON top of it every cable and satellite provider has direct access to its subscribers. Tivo doesn't. What a nice level playing field.

IT's similar to what Microsoft got sued for when they thwarted competition by including their versions of various software programs inside Windows and not the competition's. Makes it extremely difficult for the competition to compete.

That's why Internet Explorer still has 60-70% of the market. And most say that's the inferior product.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Here is what I would like to see Tivo do. I'd like to see Tivo partner up with some content provider that would allow for about 15-20 channels for about $20 month. No packages at all but 10 to 15 of the channels that each subscriber chooses. I think that would make a lot of people think about what channels they really like to watch and pay for those. 

Directv has 200+ channels of crap for $80 per month. I'm not sure why we need to get so many channels. Does anyone really watch all of them? Then you can add that you're paying for channels that you could get Over the Air anyway (about 10 more of them).


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

magnus said:


> I'm not sure why we need to get so many channels. Does anyone really watch all of them?


Technically 2 channels is more content than we can watch so question, "Does anyone really watch all of them?" is moot. 

Cable companies have always argued that packages get you a better price per channel. If they offered ala carte or smaller packages of your choosing then channel pricing would go up and you may very well pay more for less.

Also cable is sometimes forced to carry secondary channels of content providers in exchange for a cheaper rate on the main channel or perhaps losing that channel altogether.

I can see some truth in that, but why not let the free market decide.

WE're even more away from a per channel model to a per show model in some cases. Although not sure folks want to buy per show. What a pain if you have kids. What a pain to pay everytime you watch a 1/2 hour or 1 hour of tv. Difficult to keep track of. Just paying 1 monthly simplifies things.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Well, then at least you would have choices. You could choose the package and see that it has value beyond the 10 to 15 channels. Or you could see that it does not.



trip1eX said:


> Cable companies have always argued that packages get you a better price per channel. If they offered ala carte or smaller packages of your choosing then channel pricing would go up and you may very well pay more for less.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> PRetty obvious FIOS and ATT Will take customers at the expense of satellite and cable. Still the entire industry still just going gradually up in sub numbers.


I look at craigslist sometimes for tivos and I see a lot of postings where people are selling their tivo because "...switched to ATT and tivo doesn't work with it".

Maybe if Tivo again supported external control of cable boxes they wouldn't lose those customers. I have a Tivo 3[*] and I'm not getting cablecards because I've heard all the horror stories about getting it to work with TW cable. If tivo could control the cable box to get the signal, it would likely be more reliable.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

warrenn said:


> I look at craigslist sometimes for tivos and I see a lot of postings where people are selling their tivo because "...switched to ATT and tivo doesn't work with it".
> 
> Maybe if Tivo again supported external control of cable boxes they wouldn't lose those customers. I have a Tivo 3[*] and I'm not getting cablecards because I've heard all the horror stories about getting it to work with TW cable. If tivo could control the cable box to get the signal, it would likely be more reliable.


Won't get into the whole control of external cable boxes debate, but Just curious, Why not try the Cable cards? The worst that will happen is you will end up a horror story ( Hooror stories are generally it wouldn't work after several attempts and I wasted a day,1 day to find out) or it will work fine and you have a system that works fine. You have to remember that when you got to support forums, that you tend to ONLY hear the horror stories and not the "My install went perfect." Honestly my cable card install (it was with BHN not TWC) went fairly smooth and I have had zero issues with the cable card. The tuning adapter has been less reliable (had one fail and replaced and a few other issues) but all in all not to tortuous.


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## rage777 (Aug 19, 2006)

I don't have a problem with the OP switching away from cable, but it amazes me that people go to DirectTV. Maybe it's because the came to my engineering college in the early 90s and try to explain to us why it so good. We asked the "technical" rep a few detailed questions and he gave us some pretty astonishing answers. I know they must have changed their hardware/software by now, but I just couldn't trust them after that. I even went to work for Hughes (which owned DirectTV at the time) and could have gotten a huge discount and still didn't want it. If you are going to switch away from cable, why not Fios or U-verse? I know a lot of places still don't have those options, but satellite is not the way to go, in my opinion.

It also sounds like people are blaming Tivo for not working with every single cable/satellite provider and making Tivo work better. Why not blame the cable/satellite provider for not making a better DVR? Why is it Tivo's fault that the cable/satellite providers making crappy software/hardware? I don't believe Tivo is excellent and has no faults, but it does what I want it to do which is to record my shows. Do I want more than two streams? Absolutely. Do I want a full HD menu? Of course. Would I like Pandora on my TivoHD? Yes. But all I really want is Tivo to record the shows that I want ALL the time. And it does that with no problems.


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## mboge (Jan 8, 2002)

I'm an old-timer as well. My first TiVo was the original 14-hour standalone that I connected directly to my DirecTV tuner using the serial cable (remember that?).

Anyway, I haven't been to this board in a while but I've been pro-TiVo since _before_ they actually had a product to sell. I've got 2 dual-tuner SD DirecTiVos (previously three until it went ****-up) and mostly I've been pretty happy.

But now, I'm ready to bail on DirecTV and I can't (read:won't) go cable... so I'm seriously considering Dish (no fios or u-verse available) and the only reason I haven't pulled the trigger yet is TiVo. I've been considering the switch for months, but every time I think about being without TiVO for the first time in 10 years, I put it off.

Sadly, I think the OP is dead-on. Just like the lady who got up to talk to Obama at that town hall... I'm exhausted from defending TiVo. I know they were the pioneers and even 10 years later, the competition _still _can't fully compete with my old TiVo.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

We don't have any options besides satellite, cable (Comcast), or OTA. We previously had Dish Network and had no problems with their DVR software - in several ways we found it preferable to our Tivo. It had a couple major errors over the four year period we owned it (lost everything on the hard drive), but in terms of day-to-day operation it was trouble free. I would not hesitate to go back to Dish if we wanted pay TV again.

We decided to 'cut the cord' and go OTA only based on our viewing habits and desire to save money, thus we switched to the Tivo (we refused to lose the DVR completely). So for our purposes, which I know is quite the niche market, Tivo was our only viable option. It sucks that our only expansion option if we decide to get pay TV again is Comcast cable, since they are essentially the most expensive provider in our area. However, as we did get the lifetime on the Premier, it may be worth something to sell and switch back to Dish at that point (plus no doubt we'd be eligible for 'new member' discounts again that we could never get before). I suppose if there's some sort of upgrade option next year, we could change to DirecTV with their upcoming Tivo box. However, we found DirecTV's prices far above what we already were unhappy paying to Dish.

Since we are already up to our eyeballs in recorded programming with only OTA reception, I don't foresee us going to cable or back to satellite anytime soon.


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## Ennui (Sep 2, 2008)

CableCards usuallly are a problem on installation with an inexperienced installer.

I have a TiVo HD with M card and two other HD TV's with CableCards on Cox cable. Very infrequent problems over the last three years.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Exactly my point. You are one of the people that I would try to sell a 10-15 channel lineup to (the channels that you actually choose). I think if you had an option like this with Tivo then you would consider it if the price were right.

I can say that for all those that have said that Tivo has been blocked out of cable/satellite then I'm sure that doing something like this must have occurred to them by now.

Apple makes (or purchases) hardware to make sure that it's software works flawlessly. So, I wonder why Tivo does not work towards the same by offering content. Either by another provider or by somehow offer it themselves.



aaroncgi said:


> We don't have any options besides satellite, cable (Comcast), or OTA. We previously had Dish Network and had no problems with their DVR software - in several ways we found it preferable to our Tivo. It had a couple major errors over the four year period we owned it (lost everything on the hard drive), but in terms of day-to-day operation it was trouble free. I would not hesitate to go back to Dish if we wanted pay TV again.
> 
> We decided to 'cut the cord' and go OTA only based on our viewing habits and desire to save money, thus we switched to the Tivo (we refused to lose the DVR completely). So for our purposes, which I know is quite the niche market, Tivo was our only viable option. It sucks that our only expansion option if we decide to get pay TV again is Comcast cable, since they are essentially the most expensive provider in our area. However, as we did get the lifetime on the Premier, it may be worth something to sell and switch back to Dish at that point (plus no doubt we'd be eligible for 'new member' discounts again that we could never get before). I suppose if there's some sort of upgrade option next year, we could change to DirecTV with their upcoming Tivo box. However, we found DirecTV's prices far above what we already were unhappy paying to Dish.
> 
> Since we are already up to our eyeballs in recorded programming with only OTA reception, I don't foresee us going to cable or back to satellite anytime soon.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

jcondon said:


> When Circuit City was going out of business I actually stopped by trying to score a Tivo HD (for cheap). So I was / am interested in the product. Just doesn't seem like the offer a product that works well with my two TV provider options.


Sadly, the creditors who control the "closeout" sale when retail stores go bankrupt often increase prices (from what the retailer formerly had at a sale price) or, at least sell about $10 (a mere ten-dollars) below full retail. This was the case at both Tower Records and Circuit City "going out of business sale". There are a few, very few bargains, in such sales and the quantity of merchandise still on the shelves a few weeks into the sale is evidence of that. Those sales are often the worst value for any bargain shopper. 'Tis sad.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

trip1eX said:


> OR are at the mercy of the cable/satellite companies who dictate what Tivo can and cannot do.
> 
> Tivo's fault that their DVR doesn't have on-demand while their cable competition does?
> 
> ...


And this is precisely why the forthcoming DirecTiVo will NOT have some features that DirecTV's product will. DirecTV is developing this box only because the terms of the agreement prohibit TiVo from suing DirecTV for patent infringement. DirecTV's CEO in a previous quarterly conference call talked so *under*whelmingly and horribly unenthused about the DirecTiVo project, musing, ". . . well it will have many of the same features we are developing for our own product." He didn't think the differences were going to be significant. DirecTV has dragged its feet on their TiVo box and it may pay off as they can now boast MoCA streaming for their product, and I have a feeling this will NOT be in the DirecTiVo product. Meanwhile DirecTV has put who knows how many of their own DVR's in homes stalling the TiVo box. We shall have to wait and see.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

They've also lost subs because of this. However, They deem those to be acceptable.



Series3Sub said:


> Meanwhile DirecTV has put who knows how many of their own DVR's in homes stalling the TiVo box. We shall have to wait and see.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

Series3Sub said:


> Sadly, the creditors who control the "closeout" sale when retail stores go bankrupt often increase prices (from what the retailer formerly had at a sale price) or, at least sell about $10 (a mere ten-dollars) below full retail. This was the case at both Tower Records and Circuit City "going out of business sale".


Yeah. I picked up a PS3 video game (which I hated and never played) and a couple of DVD/CDs. Price was fair for all but, not really cheap. If I remember correctly a few people on these forums and/or avs said they were able to get HD Tivo's for $149 at their local CC on close out. Which I think at the time was a decent deal.

I usually don't even bother going to stores for their going out of business sale. As you said a creditor knocks a few percent off retail. And all sales are final. No thanks. I can do better online at places like Amazon and send stuff back if it is broken.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Series3Sub said:


> And this is precisely why the forthcoming DirecTiVo will NOT have some features that DirecTV's product will. DirecTV is developing this box only because the terms of the agreement prohibit TiVo from suing DirecTV for patent infringement. DirecTV's CEO in a previous quarterly conference call talked so *under*whelmingly and horribly unenthused about the DirecTiVo project, musing, ". . . well it will have many of the same features we are developing for our own product." He didn't think the differences were going to be significant. DirecTV has dragged its feet on their TiVo box and it may pay off as they can now boast MoCA streaming for their product, and I have a feeling this will NOT be in the DirecTiVo product. Meanwhile DirecTV has put who knows how many of their own DVR's in homes stalling the TiVo box. We shall have to wait and see.


perhaps it is directly because DirectTV features are a moving target that the box is delayed. Feature creep.
The DirectTV CEO knows they are adding features that were not in the original scope and that this pushed the box to 2011 - so he did not make a fuss about it in 2010 call.
Moca could be the delay
This make assumptions game is fun 
I think mine are the simpler and more realistic ones though, versus DirectTV having some evil plan that is so well thought out and executed


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> perhaps it is directly because DirectTV features are a moving target that the box is delayed....


Ah, we have understanding.

The moving better applied science targets are leaving TiVo's CEO Tom Rogers and the direction he has taken the company in the dust.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> Sadly, the creditors who control the "closeout" sale when retail stores go bankrupt often increase prices (from what the retailer formerly had at a sale price) or, at least sell about $10 (a mere ten-dollars) below full retail. This was the case at both Tower Records and Circuit City "going out of business sale". There are a few, very few bargains, in such sales and the quantity of merchandise still on the shelves a few weeks into the sale is evidence of that. Those sales are often the worst value for any bargain shopper. 'Tis sad.


Yes catch-22 in my experience.

By the time the discounts get to 40%, 50%, 75% then everything good is gone.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Joe3 said:


> Ah, we have understanding.
> 
> The moving better applied science targets are leaving TiVo's CEO Tom Rogers and the direction he has taken the company in the dust.


I see no understanding on your part .

Rogers was never hired as a technologist in the first place. For you all to say Tom Rogers is not a technologist was actually on the pro side of the pros and cons list the Board was filling out when looking for the new CEO.

Rogers did however get a new agreement in place with DirectTV so the "technologists" could get to work on a new directTiVo. DirectTV required it be on their hardware which upped the testing and bug fixes time in the project. Then DirectTV introduced whole house DVR that was not around during the agreement and not part of the original design. there is likely more but I am, of course, not privy to all the details just like the rest of us


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