# TivoHD - can this be done and how?



## Meklos (Nov 22, 2002)

I have Comcast currently... HD with their crappy DVRs... but I'm only watching a small set of shows. So a discussion with the wife ensued. I *think* I can do what I want to do, but I want to confirm with the Tivo community that it can be done before I go off and purchase a bunch of equipment just to find out that it can't really be done the way I want.

Almost all the shows we watch are broadcast OTA, and I can get a decent OTA signal where I am. The ones that aren't broadcast, I can either wait for them to come out on DVD or I can download them via some other method. 

If all goes well, I plan to buy probably 3 or 4 TivoHDs and build a server of some sort. I also have an older Series 2 that will be my SD box. I have a cablemodem and would prefer not to disconnect my internal cable plant from the cable system, but I can do that if I need to. I can separate the cablemodem off to a separate feed.

1) I want to be able to record HD programs OTA and view them on other TivoHDs. It would be nice if I could also figure out a way to transcode them and view them on the S2, but if that can't be done, that's fine.
2) I want to be able to take these HD programs and store them on a central server in some form or fashion. Whether this is streaming or not, takes diskspace or not, just let me know.
3) I want to be able to also record SD programming and view it anywhere.
4) I want to be able to take DVDs and rip them to my server for viewing anywhere.
5) I want to be able to download HD content, shows probably recorded on other HD Tivos, and view them. I would prefer to store them on the server instead of manually moving them around.
6) I have wireless available (G and A) but I'm considering using the NIM-100 boxes to do ethernet over my internal coax plant. Any problems / comments on this? Should I disconnect myself from the outside world if I intend to use these?

If this can be done, what pieces of software will I need and what limitations will there be (i.e. things like the 1.1GB streaming limit I've read about)?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Yes, all that can be done, and it's not even Underground material; it's officially supported.

It would be tedious to list all the available software, and it would be better to ask in the "TiVo Home Media Features & TiVoToGo" area, which is dedicated to this topic.


----------



## Meklos (Nov 22, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Yes, all that can be done, and it's not even Underground material; it's officially supported.
> 
> It would be tedious to list all the available software, and it would be better to ask in the "TiVo Home Media Features & TiVoToGo" area, which is dedicated to this topic.


Thanks for the info. As long as nothing stood out as a "nope, can't do that, or not yet anyway" then I'm not worried. The biggest monkey wrench in this whole thing was when I started reading about differences between SD and HD Tivos, format differences, can't do this between them, can't do that between them... and then many hours of forum reading followed.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

All can be done, for now, with OTA content, only because there's no OTA broadcast flag.

For cable and downloaded content you'll see like I do how many things have copy flags for little reason, like web video you can get free and DRM free directly on your PC anyway.


----------



## nigebj (Sep 8, 2004)

Meklos said:


> The biggest monkey wrench in this whole thing was when I started reading about differences between SD and HD Tivos, format differences, can't do this between them, can't do that between them... and then many hours of forum reading followed.


But you can move SD or HD to PC, then use tools to transcode there - before returning them to an S2 or S3. As noted elsewhere some recordings may carry copy protection from the source - but that's why you asked in the underground section, right


----------



## Meklos (Nov 22, 2002)

nigebj said:


> But you can move SD or HD to PC, then use tools to transcode there - before returning them to an S2 or S3. As noted elsewhere some recordings may carry copy protection from the source - but that's why you asked in the underground section, right


That's one reason. The other was that I couldn't tell where the current limitations are and which things could be one with 'stock' software or which required 'alternative' software.


----------



## jeepguy_1980 (Mar 2, 2008)

If you're going to have everything hosted on a server, why not just load TiVo's new TiVo for computers (Nero LiquidTV) on to that and then buy a few 1080p media players like this and avoid 3 or 4 subscription fees.

The media player I linked was selected purely at random and I have not done much research into them.


----------



## Meklos (Nov 22, 2002)

jeepguy_1980 said:


> If you're going to have everything hosted on a server, why not just load TiVo's new TiVo for computers (Nero LiquidTV) on to that and then buy a few 1080p media players like this and avoid 3 or 4 subscription fees.
> 
> The media player I linked was selected purely at random and I have not done much research into them.


Any idea how the software works with services like Netflix and Unbox?

Thanks, this does change things a bit...


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Meklos said:


> 1) I want to be able to record HD programs OTA and view them on other TivoHDs. It would be nice if I could also figure out a way to transcode them and view them on the S2, but if that can't be done, that's fine.


Yes, but cant transfer HD to S2 at this time and not sure if they ever will.



Meklos said:


> 2) I want to be able to take these HD programs and store them on a central server in some form or fashion. Whether this is streaming or not, takes diskspace or not, just let me know.


Yes, Tivo Desktop.


Meklos said:


> 3) I want to be able to also record SD programming and view it anywhere.


Yes, again, Tivo Desktop.


Meklos said:


> 4) I want to be able to take DVDs and rip them to my server for viewing anywhere.


Can't Comment because I personally haven't done it.


Meklos said:


> 5) I want to be able to download HD content, shows probably recorded on other HD Tivos, and view them. I would prefer to store them on the server instead of manually moving them around.


All Tivos on your Tivo My account will use the same Media Access Key and recordings matching it will work.


Meklos said:


> 6) I have wireless available (G and A) but I'm considering using the NIM-100 boxes to do ethernet over my internal coax plant. Any problems / comments on this? Should I disconnect myself from the outside world if I intend to use these?


Wired Network can just plug into the Network jack at the back of the THD, for wireless, you would need the Tivo brand wireless adapter.

Additionally, There will be the upcoming Netflix feature due this month, only on the THD/S3's.


----------



## jeepguy_1980 (Mar 2, 2008)

Meklos said:


> Any idea how the software works with services like Netflix and Unbox?
> 
> Thanks, this does change things a bit...


Clearly I didn't research the WD HD media player in the link I sent, b/c it doesn't even stream from a media server. Nor did I put as much thought into my solution as I should have.

There are media center boxes that will stream from your PC. And while streaming media from your server to your TV will work just fine for recorded shows, you will not be able to pause and rewind live TV, watch Netflix, or Unbox.

Even though there appears to be a few custom apps that allow you to pass a netflix stream to a media center box, it's probably a bit of a hassle. Sorry for getting your hopes up and not thinking my initial concept through a bit more.


----------



## borabora (Aug 30, 2007)

I do pretty much what the OP wants to do. I have a dedicated server with lots of storage and use PopCornHour media player boxes to playback content. This works for pretty much all video formats. Tivo recorded content needs to be converted into plain vanilla mpg and I use VideoReDo for that. 

Using 3-4 Tivos seems wasteful to me because you are paying for tuners and associated services that won't be used. Using dedicated media players is much cheaper but of course you do lose niceties such as the tivo UI and Netflix streaming.

My biggest complaint is that one cannot reliably real-time stream from a tivo because it serves content at a snail's pace. This is a tivo problem and not a network problem (I use mostly wired). Streaming can work for SD but does not work for HD content. So, basically you have to copy content from the tivo to the server. Unfortunately that requires user interaction. the user needs to select the files to copy and then possibly transcode them using a tool such as videoReDo (not really transcode because tivo uses MPEG2 but in an unconventional format).

As far as I am concerned to do this without user interaction one would need a PC server (or Linux, MACOS) program that can mirror-copy the tivo content and transcode it during the copy operation. In effect the server would have a directory that would always contain an exact mirror copy of the tivo "now playing list" but in a universally playable MPG2 format (not counting copy protected content). If a file is deleted from the tivo then it will also be auto deleted from the server.

This seems to me a pretty useful application for someone to develop. Alas, it does not exists as far as I know.


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

borabora said:


> Streaming can work for SD but does not work for HD content.


Whats this? I think you will find that others are able to "stream" HD material in realtime or even faster with a stock machine. If you don't mind to hack it you can get enough speed to stream five times the speed of the video content.


----------



## borabora (Aug 30, 2007)

ciper said:


> Whats this? I think you will find that others are able to "stream" HD material in realtime or even faster with a stock machine. If you don't mind to hack it you can get enough speed to stream five times the speed of the video content.


Ok, the problem is that I don't really feel like hacking my tivo (and I realize that I might be posting in the wrong forum). I have upgraded my drive but am reluctant to mess with the tivo software itself. I am concerned that tivo will pull the rug from under hacked units sooner or later.

I don't really understand why tivo can't serve content faster without a hack.

I any case, my goal is off-line mirroring and for that the tivo transfer speed is not the gating issue.


----------



## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

Meklos said:


> 4) I want to be able to take DVDs and rip them to my server for viewing anywhere.


This seems like one question that you haven't had any answers to yet. I have used a number of different programs for this purpose: DVDshrink, DVD Decrypter, CloneDVD2, and most recently Alldj DVD Ripper [Platinum]. I have switched to Alldj DVD Ripper because my wife likes to have subtitles. It's a handy program that can take ripped DVDs (or rip directly from DVDs) and export the VOB files to most any video format with/without subtitles.

I had a similar requirement for my system, but took a slightly different tack. I run the component out from one of my TivoHDs to a component distribution amp. That feeds 5 other TVs in my house. The TivoHD that outputs to component is hooked up through HDMI to the TV it sits near. I can now watch the same show on all TVs simultaneously. You could probably do something similar to what you are asking for with 1 TivoHD (upgrade to 1-2TB) and a distribution system and could also offload shows to a PC with Tivo Desktop (I personally use pytivo). I then serve up the ripped DVD files through pytivo (Tivo Desktop would also work) to the Tivo for distribution.

Jason


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

borabora said:


> Ok, the problem is that I don't really feel like hacking my tivo


You misunderstood my reply. With a non modified Tivo you can get greater than real time transfer speeds on HD, in other words it may take 40 minutes to transfer a 60 minute show.


----------



## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

ciper said:


> You misunderstood my reply. With a non modified Tivo you can get greater than real time transfer speeds on HD, in other words it may take 40 minutes to transfer a 60 minute show.


Is that by doing something other than using a wired network? I popped into that other forum today to look at what is possible with a hacked tivo...don't think my wife is up for that. However, if there is something else I can do besides running wired...let me know.

Jason


----------



## borabora (Aug 30, 2007)

txporter said:


> Is that by doing something other than using a wired network? I popped into that other forum today to look at what is possible with a hacked tivo...don't think my wife is up for that. However, if there is something else I can do besides running wired...let me know.
> 
> Jason


I am curious as well how to achieve faster tivo output without modifying the tivo sw. I have observed rates of about 8 mbps which is a bit less than what you need to stream most HD programs. I don't think that wired vs. wireless matters as long as the wireless network is performing well and the tivo wireless implementation isn't worse than the wired implementation. I have never used wireless with a tivo but I do successfully stream HD wirelessly from a server to a laptop. The way I see it the problem is the tivo not the network.

As mentioned before when it comes to distribution of content I prefer a server based solution. This would also be true for non-Tivo content. Since ripping DVDs is legally challenged, this is of course a theoretical discussion but using AnyDVD you can rip both regular DVDs and blueray to your server and then play back the content with a popcornhour box (or many similar boxes). For regular DVDs you can maintain the full DVD content including menus and extras. The content of the DVD is streamed to your display exactly as if a DVD player were used. For Blue Ray, currently only the main movie is copied and the DVD menus are not preserved. This method allows you to play back anything from your server on any TV unlike distributing your tivo output to your TVs which forces the same stream to all TVs (of course that can be desirable some times as well). A simple server based solution does support live TV streaming.

This concept is sometimes called the "media furnace." Gather all your media on a reasonably powerful server and then feed it out to various "rendering devices" (TVs, sound systems, PCs, hand-helds) as requested. If a device does not understand the content format then the server is supposed to transcode the content on the fly for the device. Building such a system is pretty easy nowadays. I think only feeding live TV content or recorded premium TV content is complicated (not impossible, just not easy).


----------



## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

8mbps seems a little low. When I was running my TivoHDs with Tivo wireless adapters, I was getting 10-12 Mbps (usually 80+% signal). When I moved to wired, I usually get 15-20 Mbps. That is sufficient for realtime watching of MRV HD shows.

Jason


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

txporter said:


> 8mbps seems a little low. When I was running my TivoHDs with Tivo wireless adapters, I was getting 10-12 Mbps (usually 80+% signal). When I moved to wired, I usually get 15-20 Mbps. That is sufficient for realtime watching of MRV HD shows.
> 
> Jason


Ah, that may be where the confusion is. If borabora is using a (presumably PC based) sever then the transfers are going to use the TiVo Desktop protocol, which is noticably slower than the MRV protocol.

I can move a 1 hour HD show between two HD TiVos in about 56-57 minutes. (I understand original S3 units are a bit faster than that).
But move that same 1 hour HD show to my PC and it's more like 1:20-1:40.

The difference is that for TiVo Desktop, the TiVo decrypts the show, the re-encrypts it using a different scheme (and using its underpowered CPU) before sending it to the PC. MRV doesn't need to do that, it just sends the encrypted data untouched to the other TiVo.

As I understand it, the bottleneck for TiVo to PC transfers is the TiVo's CPU, not its network connection.


----------

