# alt epg now taking subscriptions



## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Apparently it is now officially ok for people to pay for the alt epg service. Interestingly that appears to be a unilateral decision from the person who originally said (their bold type not mine)


> *this cannot be run as a commercial venture!*


The Tivoland-owned AltEPG website can now take 'recurring monthly donations' - hmmm, sounds like a subscription to me.

Hint: Where does the money go? Who accounts for it?

(p.s. I can't ask this on the alt epg forum since it is deemed a "forbidden subject" by the alt epg project owner.)


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Don't bring your falling out with Dave onto this forum please.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Well I'm not allowed to raise this important issue over there (it has been deemed a "forbidden subject" by Dave). Do you not think it should be discussed?


Are people just soooo grateful to get a replacement service that they are prepared to let the project's fundamental principles slide and that they don't care what happens their donations?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

If it worries you, don't donate.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

It worries me the way a community project has been hi-jacked and apparently nobody cares.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

spitfires said:


> The Tivoland-owned AltEPG website can now take 'recurring monthly donations' - hmmm, sounds like a subscription to me.


I think you may be reading more into it than I do. Looks like the suggestion for recurring donations came from a grateful recipient. The unwillingness to discuss what happens to donations is a little concerning though.

(I'm thinking of asking how much it would take to remove irritating apostrophes from the AltEPG site. Folks, the plural of TiVo is NOT TiVo's!  )


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

spitfires said:


> It worries me the way a community project has been hi-jacked and apparently nobody cares.


You could always start a Alt-AltEPG project if you want! I have no problem with them seeking donations as it follows in the footsteps of most Freeware. When I find a really useful application that saves me time and money I am more than happy to click on the 'tip' jar. These guys have shown an entrepreneurial spirit whilst others just sulked or looked for someone to sue, so good on them. And yes, every TiVo owner should donate something if only to buy them a pint :up: In fact shame on you if you don't.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

I was just waiting for the idiot OP to come up with another dig!

To avoid any confusion , the AltEPG project is not asking for any donations, we have made it an option after multiple request's!

Donations are not linked in any way shape or form to the continued success or failure of the project!

Let's make one thing clear we certainly do not want any donation from you spitfires, IT would defiantly be un-welcome because you've made your feelings quite clear and hence it would be impossible for you to donate anything in the spirit that they are intended!!
(not that for one minute I'd expect you to anyway!).


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

So where *does* the money go?



Seems a simple enough question. Which no-one is prepared to answer.


(Contrary to your now usual name-calling rantings healeydave, I will happily and joyfully donate to the project - in fact I was one of the first to suggest the project accept donations back in Feb. I would just like to know where the money is going.)


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

spitfires said:


> So where *does* the money go?
> Seems a simple enough question. Which no-one is prepared to answer.


No-one has refused to answer, there you go assuming again and making an arse out of yourself. The simple answer is we don't know yet, which you'd already know if you bothered to read instead of trying to stoke up trouble all the time!!!!


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

I myself don't care where the money goes 

Automan.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Who cares (apart from yourself, obviously)? As long as the service remains viable and reliable the money can go towards servers, modem's, beer or pizza's. I am sure when you leave a tip you don't ask the waiter what he is going to spend it on! Beside's the tax implications don't bear thinking about.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

I'll assume it goes straight into healeydave's pocket then.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

spitfires said:


> I'll assume it goes straight into healeydave's pocket then.


 ............. to replace the money he has spent on the project so far and will do sustaining it. Seems fair to me.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Heuer said:


> ............. to replace the money he has spent on the project so far and will do sustaining it. Seems fair to me.


If that's true then yes fine. Quite why he has to be so secretive and touchy about everything escapes me. (If there's nothing to hide then why the unnecessary name-calling and threats?)

Don't forget this was conceived and set up as a *community* project - people donating should be aware that is now no longer the case. If you want to donate then absolutely go ahead; just be aware of where your money is going.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Give the guy a break. There must be immense pressure delivering on an open promise to a lot of people with a very tight deadline so answering trivial pursuit questions here is probably way down on his 'things to do' list, and a distraction. I am sure there will be plenty of time for name calling and recriminations after 1st June when normal service is resumed


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

You should ask yourself that question as the poster of a deliberately misleading thread title with an obvious agenda.


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## Johnbyte (Nov 4, 2008)

spitfires said:


> If that's true then yes fine. Quite why he has to be so secretive and touchy about everything escapes me.


Is he then? Doesn't come across to me that way. Whatever he/the Altepg project does with the money is fine by me.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

The title was originally over my concern that Tivo Inc. might view "recurring donations" as subscriptions by another name and therefore legitimately whinge about 'service theft' or whatever the correct term would be. (I probably didn't phrase things very well.)

If the money was for a community project then I would hope they would be less likely to object (since they have always been very helpful in turning a blind eye to hacking etc. in the past). If the money was for a commercial business then they might view things differently.

Of course with only 9 days to go I guess the question is moot.


(Personally I couldn't give a t*ss who gets the money so long as it is transparent.)


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Johnbyte said:


> Is he then? Doesn't come across to me that way.


So why can't this be discussed on tivoland's forum then? (without threats of being barred from his forum and most likely the alt epg service as a whole).


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Possibly because of the Pete77-like way you brought the issue up?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

spitfires said:


> The title was originally over my concern that Tivo Inc. might view "recurring donations" as subscriptions by another name and therefore legitimately whinge about 'service theft' or whatever the correct term would be. (I probably didn't phrase things very well.)


Something which is now 10,000 times more likely since you inaccurately (and in my view deliberately maliciously) referred to "subscriptions" in a forum you know TiVo monitors. Either you're not engaging brain before posting, or you're being disingenuous claiming you're trying to help.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Look I didn't want to raise it here but I tried to ask the question in tivoland's forum and Dave said I couldn't. If you don't believe me ask him. He solely decides what can and can't be discussed on the alt epg forum.

If no-one is ever going to be allowed to ask questions that might disturb the cosy love-fest for fear it might upset the all-powerful one then the long term viability of this project is questionable.

And if you think TiVo & VM aren't reading the tivoland forum as well as this one then you are the one being naive.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

spitfires said:


> Look I didn't want to raise it here but I tried to ask the question in tivoland's forum and Dave said I couldn't.


I don't recall saying anything of the sort, I did ask you not to continue to contaminate threads with off-topic comments.
That was the point where you moped off in sulk, not to be heard from for a week or so, (which was bliss and seemed like a month).

I knew it would niggle at you though keeping so quiet for so long and that it would only be a matter of time before you tried something like this again 

I'm glad other people can see through spitfires intentional warping of situations if it means he can try and score points in his obvious vendetta against me.

Nether-the-less, I have removed the "requested" 2nd option for donating.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

spitfires said:


> Look I didn't want to raise it here but I tried to ask the question in tivoland's forum and Dave said I couldn't. If you don't believe me ask him. He solely decides what can and can't be discussed on the alt epg forum.


Every Forum needs a Moderator ...........


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

spitfires said:


> Look I didn't want to raise it here but I tried to ask the question in tivoland's forum and Dave said I couldn't.


Question? You posted a mischief making "fact" about AltEPG taking subscriptions, that's not a question.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

^ I'm taking about Dave's voluminous and vituperative PMs he sends me every time I try to raise a question on the tivoland forum he either misunderstands or doesn't like.

@Heuer - There's a difference between being a moderator and being a censor.



healeydave said:


> I don't recall saying anything of the sort, I did ask you not to continue to contaminate threads with off-topic comments.


 So I asked you if I could start a new topic so that it would not then be "off-topic" (IYO) and you said no you didn't want to discuss it.



healeydave said:


> That was the point where you moped off in sulk, not to be heard from for a week or so, (which was bliss and seemed like a month).


Your formal warning of expulsion from the project made it perfectly clear to me that I was not welcome, despite the fact that *you* totally misinterpreted what I meant.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Have you heard - the famous footballer who has taken out a super-injunction about a relationship with Imogen Thomas is none other than XXXXX XXXXX?

Moderation or censorship?


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Not being allowed to discuss whether the community should sell upgrade discs is deemed "off-topic". 

Moderation or censorship?


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

spitfires said:


> So I asked you if I could start a new topic so that it would not then be "off-topic" (IYO) and you said no you didn't want to discuss it.


And still you try to mis-lead people and twist things, forcing me to waste yet more time having to go back and check things to be sure I'm not mistaken.
I have just checked, and when you asked about could you start a new thread (as opposed to contaminating existing threads), that was in relation to forum in-dependancy.

You just have to keep pushing and pushing don't you? , do you never know when to quit goading people???


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

In which case I apologise for being mistaken. 

So can we raise a thread on the alt epg forum to discuss what happens to the money received in donations?


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

No it wouldn't!

I'd like to ask if you F***ing deaf!!! , but of-course it wouldn't make any sense, basically I've already typed it out in plain english in post 10!!!
and asking the same things again when nothing has changed since a few hours previously is exactly the same annoying actions you were doing before!


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Wouldn't it be more appeasing just to say that the donations are going to infrastructure costs (electric, network, servers, software, etc.)?


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Dave,
Let's just put the record straight.

I was working away doing alpha testing for you, and answering people's questions where I could, and then I make one post asking whether we as a community should sell upgrade discs and then you throw a giant paddy - threatening me with expulsion from the project! [1] No friendly "I don't like your post" or "I'd rather we didn't discuss this" - :boom: official warning from on high.

Apparently this was all because my post was "thread contamination" - whatever that means - despite the fact that I was responding to something raised in a post 2 above mine in the thread. So I started a new thread on the same subject to avoid your "contamination". You went apoplexic; deleting my posts (but not your own - so leaving a one-sided argument), calling me names, throwing insults, behaving like a bully and playing the crowd for sympathy.

It's your mistruths and obfuscations that get me. To claim it is "impossible" to set up an independent forum on the altepg site is nonsense; why not come clean and say you want to drive people to the tivoland site for commercial reasons. No-one (least of all me) will complain if you're honest - just stop pretending there's another reason.

What was set up as a community project has been taken over by you and turned into a marketing vehicle for tivoland. Fine, I have no problem with that, but please be honest about it.

It is quite clear the power you wield:
- you personally, own _all_ the domain names and the Tivoland-branded support forum
- you personally, own the license to the epg server program
- you exclusively, control the websites & moderate the forum and are sole arbiter on what can be discussed
- you control who gets put in the customer database thereby dictating who can use the epg and who can't.

It is obvious you can do exactly what you like without any consultation with anyone else whatsoever. With that power comes the responsibility to behave fairly and with probity. Otherwise the project is doomed - just think what would have happened if 10 years ago the tivocmommunity forum was moderated solely by TiVo Inc.!

You are running this project as your own personal fiefdom with you as sole arbiter of what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. Your bullying tactics just means that most people are afraid to say anything you might not like for fear of you denying them access to the alt epg service.

I think it's best summed up by your latest ebay advert


> the new Altenative EPG service *setup by tivoland.com* in conjunction with other members from the TiVo community


 That's somewhat more powerful a statement than your "sponsored by tivoland" strapline. Just be honest and admit you have seen the potential for personal gain out of this project, rather than acting all hurt and offended when someone mentions the obvious conflict of interest between you as beneficiary of tivoland and you being sole judge & jury of everything that is permitted on the project.

Contrary to what you would try and make people believe I have never said an ill word against you and I have repeatedly thanked you both publicly and privately for all the work you have done both now and over the last 10 years. However you conveniently overlook this and continually carp on about some alleged vendetta. Grow up.

Of course you will ignore everything I have written since it does not agree with your dogma. Oh well, I shall leave you to your cosy love-fest. Best of luck and thanks again for all your work in organising and setting up the alt service.

Kind regards,
Geoff

[1] (I kid you not people - I received a "Formal Warning" from him for this action).


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

Not an entirely accurate portrayal of events yet again, but I'll take your "Oh well, I shall leave you to your cosy love-fest" as an indication that we can agree to disagree, this is beyond reconciliation. You have made your feelings quite clear, so if you are physically able to refrain from stoking trouble in the future, there will be no means for our paths to cross again! (i have my doubts).


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