# att/D*TV pushing TiVo again



## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

att/D*TV running TV commercials again pitching TiVo's DVR.
Thought that they didn't have anymore in stock.
Guess when someone calls in, they do the ol' pitch and switch, since the TiVo doesn't network or do the other features that D* DVR offers.
If only they would activate the networking feature for the TiVo.
The picture of the att TiVo box did have the att logo in it though.


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## LI-SVT (Sep 28, 2006)

BOBCAT said:


> att/D*TV running TV commercials again pitching TiVo's DVR.
> Thought that they didn't have anymore in stock.
> Guess when someone calls in, they do the ol' pitch and switch, since the TiVo doesn't network or do the other features that D* DVR offers.
> If only they would activate the networking feature for the TiVo.
> The picture of the att TiVo box did have the att logo in it though.


From what I heard from an installer in the Long Island, New York area there are a ton of TiVo's collecting dust at the warehouse. He said he has never installed one.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

LI-SVT said:


> From what I heard from an installer in the Long Island, New York area there are a ton of TiVo's collecting dust at the warehouse. He said he has never installed one.


No wonder, since their TiVos are pretty crippled compared to their own DVRs. I would love to have the TiVo back, but not the way it is. It was crippled from the day it came out.


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## LI-SVT (Sep 28, 2006)

Me too eddyj, me too...


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Just give the poor thing MRV! At least you could then have a house full of THR22s and stream to each other!


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Just give the poor thing MRV! At least you could then have a house full of THR22s and stream to each other!


Yeah, that is the critical item. Only 2 tuners and no MRV makes it unusable in a large household.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I was surprised to see a DirecTV TiVo commercial last weekend when I was in Vegas...


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## Nick Stefanisko (Mar 6, 2017)

ATT/DirecTv really doesn't want to support Tivo. Their sales people don't offer it unless you ask and their installers don't know a thing about it. It seems like they are baiting with the name and switching to their own DVR. There is absolutely no reason why a two TiVOs in one house couldn't share content, except that its disabled on the DirecTv units. The reason I haven't jumped ship to the DirecTv DVR is that it has limit of 50 season passes and being able to watch TV recorded elsewhere is just not as important to me as not having to constantly manage my season pass list. It would be nice if DirectTv would allow Tivo to improve the product.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

It's very odd that they are advertising a product that they don't want to sell, especially with the HS17 coming, and the current HR54/C61k doing 4 rooms, including one with 4k. They could have at least allowed TiVo to update the software on the THR22 and enabled MRV between THR22s, even if it wouldn't be able to go between an HR20/21/22/23/34/44/54 and a THR22.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

My observation, over the years, has been that DirecTV will do anything to sell service. Now they are ATT and these are two of a kind. So, they'll get people to switch to DTV/ATT and then, within a year or two, change everything to the cheapest possible service options.


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## Nick Stefanisko (Mar 6, 2017)

Tivo is a Kleenex kind of word. ATT is using the brand recognition to bring in the customer and then they tell them that their DVR is so much better. In reality the DTV DVR has more bullet point features, but only because DTV won't allow Tivo to match or offer better in the THR-22. There's no good reason for it other than the fact that DTV makes $6.25/mo on the HR-24 vs Tivo making $5/mo on the THR-22.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I think it has more to do with controlling the UX and being able to iterate faster than TiVo was able to than just the raw dollars and cents. They did seem to push TiVo as far to the side as possible though... it would have been nice if they had allowed TiVo to develop their own hardware, or at the least have access to add all the features that make TiVo TiVo on DirecTV hardware.


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## Nick Stefanisko (Mar 6, 2017)

Got to disagree again. Tivo has had more UI and hardware updates than DTV has and Tivo has a much simpler navigation structure than the DTV DVR. Tivo is just a better platform, but DTV makes more money on their equipment. It's all about the money.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I still think it's mostly a control thing. If DirecTV thought that more than a small group of loyal TiVo followers would get DirecTiVos, they would have stuck with them. I think they wanted the control to go a different direction, and decided that TiVo was going to slow them down, and take over too much of their branding, so they went their own way.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

Is it possible they are working together again? Maybe an agreement where tivo retail boxes will offer DirecTV Now and in exchange they push the THR22 again while maybe working on a new one?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

BillyClyde said:


> Is it possible they are working together again? Maybe an agreement where tivo retail boxes will offer DirecTV Now and in exchange they push the THR22 again while maybe working on a new one?


Wishful thinking, at least in terms of a new DirecTiVo. The HS17 is the future of DirecTV, and you're not going to see TiVo software running on it. DirecTV NOW or Sling are both pretty unlikely given the history of the companies involved.


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## Nick Stefanisko (Mar 6, 2017)

Bigg, here's the fallacy in that. Before the DTV DVR existed, DTV used Tivo. There were multiple manufactures for both Tivo and non-DVR tuners. DTV did not make hardware. It wasn't until DTV started making hardware that they forced out the 3rd party providers. They could have licensed the Tivo platform just like the other guys did, but they didn't. Not because they wanted the control, but because they wanted the money.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Nick Stefanisko said:


> The reason I haven't jumped ship to the DirecTv DVR is that it has limit of 50 season passes and being able to watch TV recorded elsewhere is just not as important to me as not having to constantly manage my season pass list. It would be nice if DirectTv would allow Tivo to improve the product.


The Genie limit is 100, not 50.


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## Nick Stefanisko (Mar 6, 2017)

That's true, the Genie limit is 100. But the DTV DVR, which was the subject of my post, is 50. Also the Tivo does not have a limit. With my Tivo, I schedule all of the programs I want to auto record for a family of three and don't worry about removing them until the show is canceled. That is if it is a summer only show, who cares, if it is a winter only show, who cares. I don't have to constantly manage the set up. Between the three of us, we have over 150 auto records at any one time. With either a DTV DVR or Genie, I'd have to keep changing the programming every three months. Why the DTV devices have a limit is beyond me, completely unnecessary to limit it. You can't tell me that DTV can't do now what Tivo was able to do 20 years ago.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I have a Genie, and a secondary regular DVR, so I have 150 to play with. But I would swap them in a second for a fully functional TiVo. TiVo is what brought me to DIRECTV, after Comcast pissed me off, back in the HDVR2 days.


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## Nick Stefanisko (Mar 6, 2017)

So basically to do what one Tivo can do, in terms of auto recording, you need three DTV DVR equivalents (a Genie being the equivalent of two DVRs in one box) I have considered doing that, but being that I regularly have over 150 (like 154), I'd need a 4th DVR to meet my needs. No thanks, I'll stick with the one Tivo that I currently have. IF this new HS17 turns out to be a dream box with 8 tuners and an unlimited number of auto records and a massive HDD, sure I'll switch to it. But given DTV's track record, I'm not holding my breath. I've been a DTV customer since 1998, before Tivo was even available. Jumped onto the Tivo box as soon as it was available for DTV. I've seen DTV get greedier and greedier over the last decades. You used to be able to buy a DTV tuner card for a PC, you used to be able to buy TV's with DTV built in, you used to be able to buy tuners made by Samsung and Sony. My first DTV Tivo was made by Samsung. DTV is almost as bad as Apple when it comes to killing competition.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Unfortunately, the only options are DIRECTV, Uverse (which is really pushing people to DTV nowadays) and the local cable company, that makes people pray that Comcast gets here, they are so bad. I clung to my TiVos as long as I could, but once the HD content was no longer playable on the HD DTV Tivo, I bit the bullet and switched. It was a sad day.


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## Nick Stefanisko (Mar 6, 2017)

I was just getting ready to go HD, when DTV switched to MP4 encoding. Rather than giving up my precious, I delayed until the promised THR-22 was released. There was no way I was going to bit my own finger off. Spent two extra years at SD waiting for it. In my area we have Charter Cable and HD isn't even offered in my neighborhood. Its been coming soon for almost 10 years.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Nick Stefanisko said:


> Bigg, here's the fallacy in that. Before the DTV DVR existed, DTV used Tivo. There were multiple manufactures for both Tivo and non-DVR tuners. DTV did not make hardware. It wasn't until DTV started making hardware that they forced out the 3rd party providers. They could have licensed the Tivo platform just like the other guys did, but they didn't. Not because they wanted the control, but because they wanted the money.


No large MSO (excepting the ComcasTiVo experiment that ended) has licensed TiVo in the US. RCN and ABB are decent sized, but they are nothing compared to Comcast, Charter, and Cox. They want control over their own platform, or in the cast of Cox and others, another large MSO with the same interests and business model in control of it.


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## Nick Stefanisko (Mar 6, 2017)

And the Charter Tivo partnership, not that Charter is anywhere near as big as Comcast. My assertion stands that before DTV had their own brand of DVR, like back in 1999, DTV sold DirecTV branded Tivo DVRs. I have one sitting in my garage. I also have a Samsung branded Tivo DVR for DirecTV. I also have a Sony branded basic tuner for DirecTV. At one point in time, at the turn of the century, DTV allowed 3rd party manufacturers to access their data streams. The tuners and DVRs that were offered by these 3rd parties in most cases had more features than the DTV branded hardware. All of that ended when DTV switched to MP4 encoding. DTVs desire for control of the hardware is not motivated by quality control, it is purely profit margin.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Charter is now almost as big as Comcast, as they didn't exactly inherit any great CPE from TWC/BHN. I'm not saying it's quality control, it's just plain top-down control over the end to end experience and installation, support, etc.


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## ccchuck (Jul 25, 2003)

My 2 cents - we have a genie (3 minis), and 2 tivos (HD) in the house. 
We prefer the tivo interface and would luv to see the genie using it. (DTV since initial trails in MS & LA)


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

DirecTV (AT&T) is under contractual obligation to promote TiVo's. This is, perhaps, the primary reason MSO's (with a few exceptions for the tiny cable cos.) and sat Cos never did business with TiVo to provide DVR's:

TiVo's terms are the MVPD to pay almost ALL the cost of developing the DVR product, must pay ALL costs to promote the product (TiVo sets forth ways to measure that) in specific ways, and TiVo still collects part of the licensing fee per DVR, which increases the total fee a subscriber to the MVPD must pay, hence the "premium" pricing of a TiVo product, at least back then, which makes the box less competitive. Not ever subscriber is willing to pay more just for a TiVo product.

The only reason TiVo got DirecTV to agree to develop the THR22, is that DirecTV agreed to do so ONLY if TiVo agreed by that contract not to sue DirecTV for patent infringement as it was suing EVERYBODY (including box makers such as Scinetific Atlanta, et al.) else, except Comcast (who also put out a trash TiVo product) and the few teeny weenie MSO's out there. Otherwise, we might have seen just as many TiVo's in homes as there are the competiton's, including Genie probably not in existence (Dish would have still gone its own way in-house because of the Microsoft nightmare with its DP7000/7100 of not owning the MS code and not being able to get Microsoft to fix bugs in a timely manner causing great customer dissatisfaction).

The last time I saw an ad for TiVo on DirecTV was almost a year ago. Interesting! I guess the contract is still in force. BTW, going as far back as Mike White's trashing the then to come THR22 compared to his Genie, DTV has certainly never possesed the will to get any of its subscribers to get a DirecTV TiVo product, the THR22, and with all its best retail features not available. Too bad because it would have made a decent alternative.


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## NGeorge (Feb 27, 2004)

Bigg said:


> No large MSO (excepting the ComcasTiVo experiment that ended) has licensed TiVo in the US. RCN and ABB are decent sized, but they are nothing compared to Comcast, Charter, and Cox. They want control over their own platform, or in the cast of Cox and others, another large MSO with the same interests and business model in control of it.


Comcast has an interesting deal with Tivo - and I quite like it. Essentially they don't market the Tivo -- and don't offer one. But they DO have a Tivo Xfinity app which allows access to their entire On Demand library, and has a Tivo billing line which activates it -- they also drop the HD technology fee and the first CableCard is free. So Comcast is quite friendly with the Tivo, even though they don't sell it. I think they see it as another customer that would otherwise go to DirecTV or Dish -- so are OK with you not buying their own DVR -- and make it possible for you to get all of the Comcast On Demand content.

If DirecTV or Dish wanted to, they could offer a NDS or Nagra compatible CableCard -- Tivo could allow the Bolt to see the satellite frequencies -- and you would have a satellite Tivo. The satellite companies are exempted from having to do CableCards, however -- so this never happened... but it wouldn't be that hard for Tivo to include a satellite-capable tuner in their boxes -- if the satellite companies would provide -- or were forced to provide -- a compatible CableCard -- or even just allow Tivo to also include a smart card slot in addition to a Cable Card that you could put your D* or E* card into and activate...

As far as On Demand goes for satellite, they would just need to provide a Tivo app the way Comcast has that allows access to their libraries.

N


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NGeorge said:


> Comcast has an interesting deal with Tivo - and I quite like it. Essentially they don't market the Tivo -- and don't offer one. But they DO have a Tivo Xfinity app which allows access to their entire On Demand library, and has a Tivo billing line which activates it -- they also drop the HD technology fee and the first CableCard is free. So Comcast is quite friendly with the Tivo, even though they don't sell it. I think they see it as another customer that would otherwise go to DirecTV or Dish -- so are OK with you not buying their own DVR -- and make it possible for you to get all of the Comcast On Demand content.


Cox actually actively marketed TiVo for a while, even though they didn't rent or sell them, you had to go buy one yourself, and they would install it with CableCard and a TA. I think competition might be part of it, but the XoD support is more of a calculated business decision in that they are forced by the government to support CableCard, so they may as well support XoD both for the competitive edge, as well as the revenue from movie rentals.



> If DirecTV or Dish wanted to, they could offer a NDS or Nagra compatible CableCard -- Tivo could allow the Bolt to see the satellite frequencies -- and you would have a satellite Tivo. The satellite companies are exempted from having to do CableCards, however -- so this never happened... but it wouldn't be that hard for Tivo to include a satellite-capable tuner in their boxes -- if the satellite companies would provide -- or were forced to provide -- a compatible CableCard -- or even just allow Tivo to also include a smart card slot in addition to a Cable Card that you could put your D* or E* card into and activate...


How expensive would it get for TiVo to put in SWiM tuners *and* QAM tuners in the same box? Seems like a lot of complexity to me. DirecTV could have just made the THR22 good, and developed a derivative of Genie with TiVo, but they don't want anything to do with TiVo, so they did the absolute bare minimum.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Bigg said:


> How expensive would it get for TiVo to put in SWiM tuners *and* QAM tuners in the same box? Seems like a lot of complexity to me. DirecTV could have just made the THR22 good, and developed a derivative of Genie with TiVo, but they don't want anything to do with TiVo, so they did the absolute bare minimum.


TiVo cannot add SWiM tuners because DirecTV/ATT will not allow it. If TiVo could build TiVo 4k box that could be use on DirecTV, no one would use the crappy Genie box.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Johncv said:


> TiVo cannot add SWiM tuners because DirecTV/ATT will not allow it. If TiVo could build TiVo 4k box that could be use on DirecTV, no one would use the crappy Genie box.


The conversation, as quoted above was dependent on the satellite companies being willing or forced to provide an equivalent to CableCard for satellite. Most people would still use the default, and who knows what DirecTV would say. The success would largely be based on DirecTV de-bundling the equipment cost, which they would be very unlikely to want to do. It would be a good market for a TiVo, however, since the more advanced users are mostly on DirecTV now, not cable, at least the ones who still have pay TV.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Bigg said:


> The conversation, as quoted above was dependent on the satellite companies being willing or forced to provide an equivalent to CableCard for satellite. Most people would still use the default, and who knows what DirecTV would say. The success would largely be based on DirecTV de-bundling the equipment cost, which they would be very unlikely to want to do. It would be a good market for a TiVo, however, since the more advanced users are mostly on DirecTV now, not cable, at least the ones who still have pay TV.


*"Since the more advanced users are mostly on DirecTV now, not cable, at least the ones who still have pay TV."*

Any evidence to back that statement?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Johncv said:


> *"Since the more advanced users are mostly on DirecTV now, not cable, at least the ones who still have pay TV."*
> 
> Any evidence to back that statement?


Pretty much every forum acknowledges that DirecTV is by far the best service out there, and that people who are in the know about home theater, video, and electronics have gravitated towards DirecTV for the HD picture quality, the channel selection, and the equipment to a certain extent (albeit not being as good as TiVo), and for the most part, the only reason that people on this forum stay on cable is TiVo.


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

As a guy who migrated from DirecTV to FiOS, I beg to differ. I'm thrilled with my FiOS service... and especially FiOS + TiVo. The PQ is excellent, the service is rock-solid reliable - way moreso than DirecTV ever was... and the cabling through my home is much, much simpler.

Oh, and I'm saving over $100/mo by combining TV+Phone+Internet service too.

So I wouldn't say that people who "are in the know" gravitate towards DirecTV..... I'd think they'd move towards fiber-to-the-home (as FiOS is) - whenever available/possible.


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## lparsons21 (Feb 17, 2015)

DirecTV's big plus is their sports offering, 2nd is slightly better HDPQ than most.

Their negatives are fairly crappy equipment with odd design choices.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

dmurphy said:


> As a guy who migrated from DirecTV to FiOS, I beg to differ. I'm thrilled with my FiOS service... and especially FiOS + TiVo. The PQ is excellent, the service is rock-solid reliable - way moreso than DirecTV ever was... and the cabling through my home is much, much simpler.
> 
> Oh, and I'm saving over $100/mo by combining TV+Phone+Internet service too.
> 
> So I wouldn't say that people who "are in the know" gravitate towards DirecTV..... I'd think they'd move towards fiber-to-the-home (as FiOS is) - whenever available/possible.


FiOS is an excellent service, but most people don't have FiOS available. DirecTV is available nationwide. DirecTV and FiOS are roughly equivalent PQ wise, but both are far better than cable. DirecTV's current SWiM wiring is pretty simple, not really any more complicated than FiOS. The big advantage for FiOS there is aggressive bundle deals, and the ability to use TiVo. When I said "people in the know use DirecTV", I meant people who don't have FiOS or Google Fiber available.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Right. The only alternative I have is Comcast, which I would not go near with a 10-mile pole. I am too far from transmitters for usable OTA, and my wife watches too many shows not available to "cord cutters". DirecTV has been fine for me for 15 years now. Not 100% peaches and cream, but miles ahead of the alternatives (and I moved to DirecTV from DISH.)


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## emuman100 (Jul 3, 2003)

NGeorge said:


> If DirecTV or Dish wanted to, they could offer a NDS or Nagra compatible CableCard -- Tivo could allow the Bolt to see the satellite frequencies -- and you would have a satellite Tivo. The satellite companies are exempted from having to do CableCards, however -- so this never happened... but it wouldn't be that hard for Tivo to include a satellite-capable tuner in their boxes -- if the satellite companies would provide -- or were forced to provide -- a compatible CableCard -- or even just allow Tivo to also include a smart card slot in addition to a Cable Card that you could put your D* or E* card into and activate...


Wrong. The transport streams of Directv are very different from DVB and cable. You need something to parse the DSS and DVB transport stream, and cablecard-based tuners like the Bolt do not have that ability - not even with a software upgrade. Also, the modulation is QPSK and higher bit rate variants, not 64 and 256QAM.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

stevel said:


> Right. The only alternative I have is Comcast, which I would not go near with a 10-mile pole. I am too far from transmitters for usable OTA, and my wife watches too many shows not available to "cord cutters". DirecTV has been fine for me for 15 years now. Not 100% peaches and cream, but miles ahead of the alternatives (and I moved to DirecTV from DISH.)


It may not meet your programming requirements, in which case DirecTV is definitely your best bet, but unless you live in a hole, you should be able to get OTA from Needham. Nashua is 35-40 miles away from Needham. You get farther north into the top of the Boston DMA, around the Lakes Region, and things get a lot tougher.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I have tried an antenna on the top of my roof and can't get an adequate signal. But indeed OTA doesn't meet my programming requirements.

I'm actually quite happy with DirecTV overall.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

stevel said:


> I have tried an antenna on the top of my roof and can't get an adequate signal. But indeed OTA doesn't meet my programming requirements.
> 
> I'm actually quite happy with DirecTV overall.


I guess in your case, it's not really worth trying, but with the right antenna setup, you should be able to get decent OTA reception, unless you really do live in a valley or something and the signal is blocked. If you were interesting in tinkering around with OTA, it's not bad to have a backup/additional service or something to play with TiVo on.


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