# Tivo, Cable Cards, HD receivers and FCC law - help



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

I seem to remember reading somewhere that there is a FCC law which states that if a cable company makes certain channels available via cable cards, then it also has to make the same channels available via a receiver, for example.

If that's true, here's where I need clarification if someone knows more (or is better at searching) than I. Let's look at my cable company, Cox, for a second:

Cox has made SOME of their HD channels only available to devices capable of receiving at higher frequencies. Tivo Premieres and Roamios with cable cards CAN receive these channels.
Certain Cisco HD set-top receivers ALSO receive the higher frequency HD channels, whereas older, Motorola HD set-top boxes do not, as they max out around 856mhz.

Cox CSR's would tell you they CANNOT rent you a specific HD receiver capable of receiving the same channels you pay for and receive with your Tivo's cable cards, but instead HAVE to rent a WHOLE-HOME DVR system from them to receive those few, higher-frequency HD channels.

Something tells me the FCC would say this is bunk, for lack of a better word, and would instruct Cox (or any company) to make available equipment capable of receiving ALL the channels offered by said cable company (aka being able to rent a SINGLE, HD receiver).

True or false? If true, any idea what the name of the law is?

thanks - I'd really like to not have to sell all three Tivo's and suffer their whole-home system over a single drop location.


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Why not just put Minis where you'd have regular cable boxes? If you need more that 4 simultaneous channels you could upgrade to a Roamio Plus.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

What do you mean by a "receiver"? I really don't understand..


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

mattack said:


> What do you mean by a "receiver"? I really don't understand..


A "receiver" has no DVR capabilities. Some people call them set-top boxes, without the ability to record.


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> Why not just put Minis where you'd have regular cable boxes? If you need more that 4 simultaneous channels you could upgrade to a Roamio Plus.


As noted, I really don't want to have to sell my Premieres, take a bath, and re-tool yet again with another Tivo upgrade (Tivo will NOT allow me to port my Lifetime subs over to Roamio's/Minis)


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

tvmaster2 said:


> I seem to remember reading somewhere that there is a FCC law which states that if a cable company makes certain channels available via cable cards, then it also has to make the same channels available via a receiver, for example.


I don't know of any FCC regulation that says this. There may be one, but I've skimmed most of the cable card regulations at some point and don't remember one (but I'd be paying attention to the other direction).



tvmaster2 said:


> Cox has made SOME of their HD channels only available to devices capable of receiving at higher frequencies. Tivo Premieres and Roamios with cable cards CAN receive these channels.
> Certain Cisco HD set-top receivers ALSO receive the higher frequency HD channels, whereas older, Motorola HD set-top boxes do not, as they max out around 856mhz.


Something seems to be confused about the explanation you're getting. You can't run both Motorola and Cisco set-top boxes in the same neighborhood - the cable system head-end equipment has to be one or the other and can only support one, AFAIK.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

tvmaster2 said:


> (Tivo will NOT allow me to port my Lifetime subs over to Roamio's/Minis)


And why should they? It is clearly stated in the TOS that Lifetime is for the LT of THAT device.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

I think the OP is confusing the FCC regs that say the cable companies can not broadcast in a fashion where their equipment is required to receive and there are no options for 3rd party devices ala Tivo with CableCard and TA.

The example would be that if the Tuning Adapter did NOT exist for 3rd party devices, they would not have been allowed to deploy SDV they way they have. We can debate how well the solution is implemented, but there is a solution and that's the key.


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

CrispyCritter said:


> Something seems to be confused about the explanation you're getting. You can't run both Motorola and Cisco set-top boxes in the same neighborhood - the cable system head-end equipment has to be one or the other and can only support one, AFAIK.


Cox does use Cisco equipment with a Motorola CableCARD in Motorola markets, for their premium Contour Package (formerly Cox Trio IPG and Plus Package)

The Cox Contour Cisco equipment is running Axiom OCAP middleware (tru2way) that allows for it's use on a Motorola system.


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

The OP is asking if a Cable Co (Cox) is required by FCC regulations to only lease equipment that is capable of receiving all channels the customer subscribes to, and pays for.

I believe the answer to that is NO, not for rented/leased equipment, Otherwise a Cable Co could not rent/lease any SD only receivers or any Limited Digital Receivers (or DTAs).

The FCC regulations regarding the access to ALL linear and SDV channels provided by the Cable Co only apply to Retail CableCARD device access, and not leased equipment.

*Some background Info regarding Cox:*

Cox runs two STB/DVR IPGs

*Rovi Passport IPG*: Run on all Motorola and Legacy SA equipment and can be run on newer Cisco equipment
*Contour IPG* (formerly Trio IPG): Run only on newer Cisco hardware, in both SA/Cisco and Motorola systems.
===================================

Cox has about 32+ MPEG4/H.264 broadcast channels. Called Contour HD Channels (formerly Plus Pak HD Channels)
Most of the Contour HD channels are above 900MHz
The Contour HD channels are available, *on leased equipment*, only on the Cisco hardware running the Contour IPG.
The Contour IPG Package is only available bundled with a DVR, either 2-Tuner or 6-Tuner (Cox does not allow a stand alone Cisco HD STB running the Contour IPG). So with leased equipment you cannot receive the 32+ MPEG4/H.264 Contour HD channels without leasing a Cisco DVR.
No Motorola hardware runs the Contour IPG, and No Motorola hardware has access to the Contour HD channels
No Legacy Scientific Atlanta equipment is capable of receiving MPEG4/H.264 or frequencies above 900MHz

All Retail CableCARD devices capable of both MPEG4/H.264 and 1GHz tuning do have access to all the Contour HD (formerly Plus Pak) Channles. This includes the Premieres and Roamios, but not Series3 or TiVoHD.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

CoxInPHX said:


> Cox does use Cisco equipment with a Motorola CableCARD in Motorola markets, for their premium Contour Package (formerly Cox Trio IPG and Plus Package)
> 
> The Cox Contour Cisco equipment is running Axiom OCAP middleware (tru2way) that allows for it's use on a Motorola system.


Thanks for the info; that makes sense. The cablecard has to match the head-end equipment - can't mix Motorola and Cisco cablecards in the same neighborhood - but the set-top box itself can be Cisco in a Motorola neighborbood.


----------



## SatManager (Feb 2, 2012)

CoxInPHX said:


> The OP is asking if a Cable Co (Cox) is required by FCC regulations to only lease equipment that is capable of receiving all channels the customer subscribes to, and pays for.
> 
> I believe the answer to that is NO, not for rented/leased equipment, Otherwise a Cable Co could not rent/lease any SD only receivers or any Limited Digital Receivers (or DTAs).
> 
> ...


From what I understand, this would also apply to the Cox Las Vegas market as it essentially duplicates the Phoenix market from what I have read. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong - it won't be the first time.


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

WhiskeyTango said:


> And why should they? It is clearly stated in the TOS that Lifetime is for the LT of THAT device.


I wasn't suggesting they should, just noting that re-tooling every two years via Tivo hardware/Lifetime is an extremely expensive endeavor I wish not to partake in, especially after the debacle that was the TiVo Premiere sluggish software. It will be some time before I trust them again


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> I don't know of any FCC regulation that says this. There may be one, but I've skimmed most of the cable card regulations at some point and don't remember one (but I'd be paying attention to the other direction).
> 
> Something seems to be confused about the explanation you're getting. You can't run both Motorola and Cisco set-top boxes in the same neighborhood - the cable system head-end equipment has to be one or the other and can only support one, AFAIK.


OK, UPDATE: Cox DID send me a Cisco 4742 (Scientific Atlanta rebrand) which IS capable of receiving ALL of their current channel lineup.
No 'Whole Home' system needed - just a stand-alone receiver which decodes the channels above 856mhz.
It took some work to get them to get on-board with the concept of "I'm paying for these channels, can I have a box to receive them"
And yes, at the moment, I have both an old Motorola and new Cisco, side-by-side in my setup


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

CoxInPHX said:


> The OP is asking if a Cable Co (Cox) is required by FCC regulations to only lease equipment that is capable of receiving all channels the customer subscribes to, and pays for.
> 
> I believe the answer to that is NO, not for rented/leased equipment, Otherwise a Cable Co could not rent/lease any SD only receivers or any Limited Digital Receivers (or DTAs).
> 
> ...


Thanks for that detailed info. Luckily for me (guess I called the right retention person), I now have a stand-alone, Cisco 4742 'receiver-only' set top box, and ALL Contour channels are available.
So, it's completely possible, they just don't want to do it.


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

tvmaster2 said:


> Thanks for that detailed info. Luckily for me (guess I called the right retention person), I now have a stand-alone, Cisco 4742 'receiver-only' set top box, and ALL Contour channels are available.
> So, it's completely possible, they just don't want to do it.


What Software Guide is your new Cisco 4742 running?

Contour 16:9 or
Rovi Passport 4:3


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

CoxInPHX said:


> What Software Guide is your new Cisco 4742 running?
> 
> Contour 16:9 or
> Rovi Passport 4:3


Do you have a reference I could use? It's completely different than the one coming from the Motorola


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

tvmaster2 said:


> Do you have a reference I could use? It's completely different than the one coming from the Motorola


*Contour Guide (16:9) - Grid View*









*Contour Guide (16:9) - List View*









*Rovi non-DVR Guide (4:3)*


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

CoxInPHX said:


> What Software Guide is your new Cisco 4742 running?
> 
> Contour 16:9 or
> Rovi Passport 4:3


Indeed, the new SA-Cisco 4742 uses the 16x9 guide. The Motorola 3200, the old guide.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

What I have not seen addressed in this thread is WHY ON EARTH would the OP has to sell the Premieres? They work with MPEG-4 channels up to 1000mhz, so they should be able to receive everything.

Also, Cisco and Moto boxes side by side. FASCINATING. And Bizarre.


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Bigg said:


> What I have not seen addressed in this thread is WHY ON EARTH would the OP has to sell the Premieres? They work with MPEG-4 channels up to 1000mhz, so they should be able to receive everything.


I wondered that also, why would someone prefer a leased single tuner HD STB over the 3 Premieres they already own?


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

CoxInPHX said:


> I wondered that also, why would someone prefer a leased single tuner HD STB over the 3 Premieres they already own?


Yeah, I don't know, I can't follow the logic. Maybe the OP is thinking they have to replace TiVo with Cox's WH-DVR to get the channels? But that makes no sense, as a Roamio/Mini system for the whole house with no crappy Cox equipment would get them all the channels.


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

Bigg said:


> What I have not seen addressed in this thread is WHY ON EARTH would the OP has to sell the Premieres? They work with MPEG-4 channels up to 1000mhz, so they should be able to receive everything.
> 
> Also, Cisco and Moto boxes side by side. FASCINATING. And Bizarre.


ah, sorry - should have mentioned that at the head - the 4742 set-top box is a feeder source for my SageTV Whole-Home DVR system (which, with extenders, is soo much nicer than anything else on the market).
Hence, I wanted ALL the channels which the Premieres could receive. At some point, because Sage is so good, I'll likely start selling the Tivo's, one-by-one


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Also, Cisco and Moto boxes side by side. FASCINATING. And Bizarre.


What's bizarre about it? The Cisco is actually a re-branded Scientific Atlanta, isn't it?


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

tvmaster2 said:


> What's bizarre about it? The Cisco is actually a re-branded Scientific Atlanta, isn't it?


Because Scientific Atlanta cablecards don't work with Motorola head-end equipment and Motorola cablecards don't work with Scientific Atlanta head-ends. (Thus it is the case that a given cable franchise area (head-end) establishes the cablecards allowed in the home.)

This is the first I've heard of a Cisco box being able to use a Motorola cablecard.


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> Because Scientific Atlanta cablecards don't work with Motorola head-end equipment and Motorola cablecards don't work with Scientific Atlanta head-ends. (Thus it is the case that a given cable franchise area (head-end) establishes the cablecards allowed in the home.)
> 
> This is the first I've heard of a Cisco box being able to use a Motorola cablecard.


I didn't realize there was a cable card built into a Cisco HD receiver - there isn't one built into the Motorola DHC3200.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

tvmaster2 said:


> I didn't realize there was a cable card built into a Cisco HD receiver - there isn't one built into the Motorola DHC3200.


Any cable set-top box manufactured in the past 5 or so years has a cablecard built into it. Some older equipment previously built does not - the cable company could use their old inventory until it was gone.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

tvmaster2 said:


> ah, sorry - should have mentioned that at the head - the 4742 set-top box is a feeder source for my SageTV Whole-Home DVR system (which, with extenders, is soo much nicer than anything else on the market).
> Hence, I wanted ALL the channels which the Premieres could receive. At some point, because Sage is so good, I'll likely start selling the Tivo's, one-by-one


That's a dangerous road, since it's not supported anymore. Going with a whole house TiVo Roamio/Mini setup makes a lot more sense. The original comment still doesn't fully make sense, since what does their Contour system have to do with anything? If you couldn't get a regular box to feed SageTV, you could use TiVo instead of SageTV...



CrispyCritter said:


> Because Scientific Atlanta cablecards don't work with Motorola head-end equipment and Motorola cablecards don't work with Scientific Atlanta head-ends. (Thus it is the case that a given cable franchise area (head-end) establishes the cablecards allowed in the home.)
> 
> This is the first I've heard of a Cisco box being able to use a Motorola cablecard.


Exactly. I've never heard of a Moto/Sci Atlanta mix of equipment before. I've head of some equipment that can work on either from a third manufacturer, but not one actually crossing over to the other...


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Bigg said:


> Exactly. I've never heard of a Moto/Sci Atlanta mix of equipment before. I've head of some equipment that can work on either from a third manufacturer, but not one actually crossing over to the other...


The datsheet of the Cisco 8742HDC actually has a Order/Part Number for a "Set-Top with Alternate M-Card Module - (Cox w/ MediaCipher Card)" - MediaCipher is a Motorola CableCARD
See bottom of page 4: http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/produc...ital-cable-set-tops/data_sheet_c78-728782.pdf

The datasheet of the 6-Tuner Cisco 9800 series just states: "Contact your account representative for information to order the gateway with an alternate M-Card Module."
http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/produc...een-gateway-9800-series/9800_multi-screen.pdf


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

Bigg said:


> That's a dangerous road, since it's not supported anymore. Going with a whole house TiVo Roamio/Mini setup makes a lot more sense. The original comment still doesn't fully make sense, since what does their Contour system have to do with anything? If you couldn't get a regular box to feed SageTV, you could use TiVo instead of SageTV...
> 
> Exactly. I've never heard of a Moto/Sci Atlanta mix of equipment before. I've head of some equipment that can work on either from a third manufacturer, but not one actually crossing over to the other...


Not sure where you think equipment is getting "mixed up".
I have TWO Cox HD receivers: one from Motorola, and one from Cisco/SA.
They work independently of each other - one is in one room, and one in a second room.

As far as 'Contour' goes - I agree: it's a confusing scenario created by Cox. If you talk to their CSR's, you can only receive Contour channels with a Whole-Home, Cox system. That's not true, as I now receive ALL the Contour channels (channels which an older, Cox inventory set-top box can't receive due to frequency limitations) with the stand-alone, 4742HDC box, the same channels that are received with cable cards.

And, I do have a regular box that now feeds Sage with all channels the Tivo's can produce. SageTV is still a vital, ongoing community. As long as there is working hardware circulating in the used marketplace, we're fine.
Actually, the previous owners released a limited amount of NEW extenders just last year. Check out their forums - from what I've found, there isn't another whole-home system that has even come close to rivaling Sage.
Can TiVo play ripped DVD's? Bluray's? AVI's? MKV's, etc. etc. etc?
The benefits are amazing, not to mention the open-source Sage community who continue to create, update and tweak plugins for the system.

One day, when it fails and there is no hardware to be found, a Tivo system will likely be the next-best thing. But it will never be better


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

CoxInPHX said:


> The datsheet of the Cisco 8742HDC actually has a Order/Part Number for a "Set-Top with Alternate M-Card Module - (Cox w/ MediaCipher™ Card)" - MediaCipher™ is a Motorola CableCARD
> See bottom of page 4: http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/produc...ital-cable-set-tops/data_sheet_c78-728782.pdf
> 
> The datasheet of the 6-Tuner Cisco 9800 series just states: "Contact your account representative for information to order the gateway with an alternate M-Card Module."
> http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/produc...een-gateway-9800-series/9800_multi-screen.pdf


They gave me a 4742, actually. No DVR, no hard drive, just a set-top HD receiver. If there's a cable-card built in, it's well camouflaged (I haven't taken the box apart, so it's possible)

EDIT: yup, there's a M-Card in there - hard wired

http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/produc...ries-4000-digital-cable-set-tops/7018348a.pdf


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

tvmaster2 said:


> Not sure where you think equipment is getting "mixed up".


This is the only example I have ever heard of equipment from one manufacturer jumping over to a system running equipment from the other. That type of setup is the exception to the rule. The rule is usually that Moto boxes go on a Moto system, Sci Atlanta boxes go on a Sci Atlanta system. That's how Comcast works, and they run both in close proximity to each other, each with totally separate stocks of equipment...



> And, I do have a regular box that now feeds Sage with all channels the Tivo's can produce. SageTV is still a vital, ongoing community. As long as there is working hardware circulating in the used marketplace, we're fine.
> Actually, the previous owners released a limited amount of NEW extenders just last year. Check out their forums - from what I've found, there isn't another whole-home system that has even come close to rivaling Sage.
> Can TiVo play ripped DVD's? Bluray's? AVI's? MKV's, etc. etc. etc?
> The benefits are amazing, not to mention the open-source Sage community who continue to create, update and tweak plugins for the system.
> ...


SageTV, like Windows MCE, is no longer supported and will eventually cease to be a viable option. Maybe it will survive until the phase-out of whatever the newest operating system it supports (Windows 7?), but that's probably a stretch. It's also a complete kludge. There are places where a system like that was very useful with DirecTV before whole home DVR, and if there were no viable cable options for a TiVo, but compared to a Roamio/Mini system, a SageTV system is just a massive kludge. There is also a quality loss doing a D>A>D conversion and re-compression that TiVo doesn't have to deal with. And the cost of renting and powering a whole stack of boxes to get a decent number of tuners. It's a cool piece of software, and a cool technology, but it's day has come and gone.

All that ancillary stuff can be done with other software on various system that are separate from a TiVo.


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

Bigg said:


> It's a cool piece of software, and a cool technology, but it's day has come and gone.


couldn't agree less, but glad you have a system that works for you.
PS - It works fine on Windows 8, so I guess that should run for some time now


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

tvmaster2 said:


> couldn't agree less, but glad you have a system that works for you.
> PS - It works fine on Windows 8, so I guess that should run for some time now


You've got about 9 more years then, IIRC...


----------



## gville (May 9, 2015)

I spoke to an FCC agent about this yesterday and she confirmed that Cox is indeed breaking the law and violating FCC regulations by forcing customers to switch to their Contour Box if they want to receive full programming. I pay 60 dollars a month for all the premium HD channels and Cox took about 17 of them (the majority) suddenly this month, claiming that they can deliver their programming however they want and that they can charge me the same price...they say if I want the channels I have to throw away my Tivo boxes (which I have spent THOUSANDS of dollars on) and get Contour Boxes, regardless, they will still charge me for the channels that they have blocked from my cable card. When I informed the FCC agent she assured me this is, indeed a violation punishable by law and she is escalating this case to the higher ups and the FCC and filed a report against and will be contacting Cox informing them that they must restore service to customers with cable cards and tuning adapters or they will be served with Federal Fees (7 figures!). 

We need to spread the word about this and fight for our rights. IF you have Tivo and Cox has taken away your premium HD channels and claimed you now require a Contour Box to get the channels, contact the FCC at 888-225-5322 to file an additional complaint. That way we could have a class action lawsuit on our hands that will force Cox to restore our program. What they are doing is essentially extortion and it needs to be stopped.

If any Tivo Mods are listening to this, please step up and help us! This is your fight too, otherwise Cox will start forcing your customers to cancel their Tivo subscriptions in favor of Cox Contour Boxes!


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

gville said:


> I pay 60 dollars a month for all the premium HD channels and Cox took about 17 of them (the majority) suddenly this month, claiming that they can deliver their programming however they want and that they can charge me the same price...they say if I want the channels I have to throw away my Tivo boxes (which I have spent THOUSANDS of dollars on) and get Contour Boxes, regardless, they will still charge me for the channels that they have blocked from my cable card.


What Model TiVo do you have?
Where are you located?

The Premiere and Roamio are perfectly capable of receiving the Contour HD channels, which are MPEG4/H.264

The Series 3 and TiVo HD are not capable of tuning MPEG4/H.264

I receive all the Cox Contour HD channels, which were all moved to SDV a few months ago. If yours were moved from Linear to SDV, it is possible the Tuning Adapter did not get the correct mapping for those channels, I have seen that happen before. In that case you just need to get the message to an engineer at the cable plant, and be very specific.

It sounds like you got some bad information from Cox.


----------

