# Tru2Way Compatible?



## chase_hyland (Feb 1, 2004)

Is the Tivo Premiere a CableCARD equipped Tru2Way Device? If it is... excellent. If it is not, then it appears my Tivo Premiere (which will arrive in a day or so) cannot have 2 way programming and services including:

1. On Demand (such as Movies On Demand, HBO On Demand, etc)

2. Interactive Program Guide (which doesn't matter because I will be using the Tivo's)

3. Caller ID On TV

4. Switched Digital Video Channels (which could be really really bad)


I'm not sure what to tell Time Warner when I call to have them bring out the Cable Card for installation. Help?


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

Sorry but, i don't believe that at this time any current TiVos are capable of full two way communications. When ordering the cable cards ask for a tuning adaptor so at least it would be capable of SDV (Switched Digital Video). As for the other stuff on your list, the answer at least for now is no. In other words: no Caller ID on TV, no On Demand, No Time Warner Guide Menus (Use TiVo's), but with a Tuning Adapter, in theory (if all goes well) you should be able to tune to SDV channels. When calling Time Warner, either tell them you bought a TiVo and need cable cards, or what i said to my provider was, that it was a gift from family, so they won't annoy you into purchasing their DVR.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Tru2Way doesn't really exist. There are no implementations of it, at all. It was a CableLabs pipe dream, rightly despised and ignored by consumer electronics manufacturers.

Instead, to avoid FCC action, the cable industry came up with another ugly kludge, the "tuning adapter", to enable the TiVo to deal with switched digital video. But you're probably out of luck for cable company VOD. On the other hand, TiVo provides their own VOD services, including Netflix.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

wmcbrine said:


> Tru2Way doesn't really exist. There are no implementations of it, at all. It was a CableLabs pipe dream, rightly despised and ignored by consumer electronics manufacturers.


They sure fooled a lot of folks. There were plenty of dire predictions that TiVo was doomed because the Premiere wasn't a Tru2way box. "It can't be a Series 4 if it's not Tru2way!"

As it turns out, Tru2way would have been an enormous waste of time and money for TiVo.


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Tru2Way doesn't really exist. There are no implementations of it, at all. It was a CableLabs pipe dream, rightly despised and ignored by consumer electronics manufacturers.
> 
> Instead, to avoid FCC action, the cable industry came up with another ugly kludge, the "tuning adapter", to enable the TiVo to deal with switched digital video. But you're probably out of luck for cable company VOD. On the other hand, TiVo provides their own VOD services, including Netflix.


True, but just not the HD menus as was promised before it launched.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> Tru2Way doesn't really exist. There are no implementations of it, at all. It was a CableLabs pipe dream, rightly despised and ignored by consumer electronics manufacturers.
> 
> Instead, to avoid FCC action, the cable industry came up with another ugly kludge, the "tuning adapter", to enable the TiVo to deal with switched digital video. But you're probably out of luck for cable company VOD. On the other hand, TiVo provides their own VOD services, including Netflix.


Well that's not strictly true, these were available last year in a few cities, Comcast only. Very few reports on AVS of folks buying one and using it for tru2way though, and it still requires a Cablecard install. And cable missed a self-imposed deadline a year ago to have tru2way-enabled headends in all areas.

Agree that tru2way is/was DOA though, and am glad that Tivo is pushing the FCC to get the IP home gateway standard approved for ALL providers, not just cable. But knowing the FCC, it will probably get botched again.

UPDATE: tru2way is officially DOA at retail, at least as far as Panasonic is concerned.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

nrc said:


> They sure fooled a lot of folks. There were plenty of dire predictions that TiVo was doomed because the Premiere wasn't a Tru2way box. "It can't be a Series 4 if it's not Tru2way!"
> 
> As it turns out, Tru2way would have been an enormous waste of time and money for TiVo.


Had Tru2way been the only option (as it was appearing at the time), then it really would have been the end of TiVo (and probably any other non-cable-company DVR). Even still, the "tuning adapter" is a *huge* kludge.


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## chase_hyland (Feb 1, 2004)

csm10495 said:


> Sorry but, i don't believe that at this time any current TiVos are capable of full two way communications. When ordering the cable cards ask for a tuning adaptor so at least it would be capable of SDV (Switched Digital Video). As for the other stuff on your list, the answer at least for now is no. In other words: no Caller ID on TV, no On Demand, No Time Warner Guide Menus (Use TiVo's), but with a Tuning Adapter, in theory (if all goes well) you should be able to tune to SDV channels. When calling Time Warner, either tell them you bought a TiVo and need cable cards, or what i said to my provider was, that it was a gift from family, so they won't annoy you into purchasing their DVR.


Well, I don't have an HD TV and I won't be buying one anytime soon, unfortunately. I will be using my Tivo Premiere as a digital cable box/dvr. I have been using a dual tuner series 2 for many years without a cable box... so I'm expecting the video quality to improve a lot!

I received my first Tivo back in '03 and I can't imagine not having it.. so I really don't care about the pay-per-view and terrible other little things that come with Time Warner's cable box. My biggest concern is that I wouldn't be able to access all channels, but the Tuning Adapter should fix that.

So with the Tivo Premiere, I can record 2 instances of HBO? On the Series 2 dual tuner, you can only record 1 digital channel and one analog channel.


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## bobfrank (Mar 17, 2005)

Tru2Way appears to be in even more trouble. According to DSL reports Panasonic has stopped selling Tru2Way sets.

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Panasonic-Stops-Selling-Tru2Way-TV-Sets-109662


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

bobfrank said:


> Tru2Way appears to be in even more trouble. According to DSL reports Panasonic has stopped selling Tru2Way sets.
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Panasonic-Stops-Selling-Tru2Way-TV-Sets-109662


Sounds a lot like the cable card flop (you know, the device that was SUPPOSED to work in everything and let everyone be cable ready again), doesn't it? Go to Best Buy and try to buy anything OTHER than a TiVo that supports Cable Card....


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Tru2Way doesn't really exist. There are no implementations of it, at all. It was a CableLabs pipe dream, rightly despised and ignored by consumer electronics manufacturers.


It's pretty widely deployed by the cable operators. But there's not many CE manufacturers who invested in it for direct-to-consumer sales despite the MOU which included all sorts of folks like Sony. And as others in the thread point out, Panasonic killed their tru2way televisions.

I do agree it was a lot of hoopla that just didn't pan out though and I was pretty skeptical from the beginning. Also, CableLabs and folks like TiVo never seemed to come to a compromise on waiving the cableco UI in retail devices.

Even if the AllVid things gains traction, it'll be years before we seen anything. I think we're stuck with CableCARDs and the less fortunate are also stuck with SDV tuning adapters for awhile.

I was actually thinking last night, it'd be cool if TiVo went back to IR remote control of set-tops. Yeah, it's a kludge, but it'll work universally (satellite, too!) and without CCI Byte BS. The recordings won't be bit for bit digital reproductions, but it'll still be HD over component that would probably be close to indistinguishable from the original with most sets given viewing distance and vision.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

So are there plans to make PPV and On Demand possible with non cable DVRs (Like the Tivo)?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The Premier can support most two way features out of its network port (requires broadband). It does for RCN and a few other Cablecos, but on TiVo Premiere boxes leased by them. It remains to be seen if that will be seen on customer purchased boxes,or if other providers will jump on board for a networked 2-way system.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

davezatz said:


> I was actually thinking last night, it'd be cool if TiVo went back to IR remote control of set-tops. Yeah, it's a kludge, but it'll work universally (satellite, too!) and without CCI Byte BS. The recordings won't be bit for bit digital reproductions, but it'll still be HD over component that would probably be close to indistinguishable from the original with most sets given viewing distance and vision.


It's a massive kludge and requires rental of expensive, power sucking STBs that pretty much have to be dedicated to Tivo recording otherwise you run the chance of missing a show while you were watching VOD.

Very ugly solution, no thanks. Right now AllVid is our only hope :sigh:.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

davezatz said:


> I was actually thinking last night, it'd be cool if TiVo went back to IR remote control of set-tops. Yeah, it's a kludge, but it'll work universally (satellite, too!) and without CCI Byte BS. The recordings won't be bit for bit digital reproductions, but it'll still be HD over component that would probably be close to indistinguishable from the original with most sets given viewing distance and vision.


There is no way that will ever be supported, because it is bypassing the industries' oh-so-special HDCP. Besides, it is not possible to "record" HD from a component cable- that is an analog signal, not digital. It would require a machine with 10,000+ times the CPU of a TiVo to capture it and recompress it into a digital stream that can be stored, real-time.

Remember, TiVo doesn't encode ANYTHING HD, they just take a digital stream and store it to a hard drive. Whether that is from cable or OTA, it is still extremely simple.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

kturcotte said:


> So are there plans to make PPV and On Demand possible with non cable DVRs (Like the Tivo)?


Plans by whom? The cable companies? Hell no.

1) It is the last thing on earth they would want to do. Cable companies want to maintain that control and advantage.
2) It requires two-way communication, which we do not have with CableCard. I should be possible with a tuning adapter, but good luck with that.
3) It has little to do with TiVO- it is not their "fault" it can't be done right now.

Now, if you asked if it is theoretically/technologically possible, the answer is yes. And it could be done without a damn "tuning adapter" through just regular networking. But it requires the cable company to allow TiVo to run certain software (and TiVo being willing to integrate and run it).

A VERY few cable companies that use TiVo's as their "official" DVR will allow the decoding software to be loaded on those boxes and those customers should be able to do everything. But that might account for 0.01% of total cable customers.

Unless the FCC forced cable companies to do it, it won't happen. Cable companies will complain very loudly about security, copyright, control, you name it.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

crxssi said:


> Besides, it is not possible to "record" HD from a component cable- that is an analog signal, not digital. It would require a machine with 10,000+ times the CPU of a TiVo to capture it and recompress it into a digital stream that can be stored, real-time.


That problem has been solved at reasonable prices... My Slingbox PRO-HD transcodes HD video in real-time and the Hauppauge HD-PVR records HD video for folks running SageTV, etc.

HDCP does not apply as HDMI isn't in play, except for whatever new release POV they flag for HDMI-out only. However, TiVo has gone for a copacetic relationship with the content industry since Tom Rogers arrived and I agree they probably wouldn't want to make any waves.

I also agree with slowbicuit that going back to IR control is not pretty. But AllVid is years away IF it happens. The FCC is making a lot of promising noise, but I haven't seen anything enforceable. Regarding the expense of a box, anyone hit with a $2 CableCARD fee and $6 additional outlet fee is already paying close to the same for a low-end STB. But I do hate clutter... and channel change lag.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

crxssi said:


> Plans by whom? The cable companies? Hell no.
> 
> 1) It is the last thing on earth they would want to do. Cable companies want to maintain that control and advantage.
> 2) It requires two-way communication, which we do not have with CableCard. I should be possible with a tuning adapter, but good luck with that.
> ...


Oh, I know it's not Tivo. It's definitely the cable companies. If they ever want *ME* ordering PPV, they'll allow it through the Tivo.
Anyway to at least integrate the tuning adapter into the Tivo?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

kturcotte said:


> ...Anyway to at least integrate the tuning adapter into the Tivo?


No, unless they incorporated both Motorola and Scientific Atlanta technologies into the box. If that were to happen, at least one of those resources would be wasted. If the TiVo were used for OTA only, then both would be unused hardware, a wasted cost for the consumer and TiVo...


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

davezatz said:


> That problem has been solved at reasonable prices... My Slingbox PRO-HD transcodes HD video in real-time
> 
> Really? Wait, you are saying that a Slingbox Pro HD can grab 1080i off a component input, and digitize and compress it ON THE FLY, then retransmit 1080i somewhere else, all in realtime? That is very impressive... they must have some kick-a** special ASIC's in that thing.
> 
> ...


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

davezatz said:


> That problem has been solved at reasonable prices... My Slingbox PRO-HD transcodes HD video in real-time and the Hauppauge HD-PVR records HD video for folks running SageTV, etc.


Not to mention Monsoon.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/27/monsoon-vulkano-all-in-one-dvr-placeshifting-media-streaming-box/


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

SullyND said:


> Not to mention Monsoon.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/27/monsoon-vulkano-all-in-one-dvr-placeshifting-media-streaming-box/


Yep, I should have one on the way for review shortly. When I played with it at CES, it looked very promising but rough around the edges. We'll see how far they've come...



crxssi said:


> Really? Wait, you are saying that a Slingbox Pro HD can grab 1080i off a component input, and digitize and compress it ON THE FLY, then retransmit 1080i somewhere else, all in realtime?


Yes, and these sorts of chips have been available 2+ years. Here's a quick spec lift from the HD PVR site.


Built-in hardware H.264 high definition encoder, for high performance, high quality TV recordings
Component video input from most high definition cable TV and satellite TV receivers. Optical or stereo audio inputs.
Record high definition video at up to 1080i resolution, 720p or VGA/D1
Record at datarates from 1Mbs to 13.5Mbs, constant and Variable Bit Rate

And there are also some companies willing to roll the dice and ignore the HDMI/HDCP licensing/spec... this Gefen recorder took HBO HD off Comcast via HDMI for example and HDFury2 will turn HDMI into component to address your other concern.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

The problem is that the average consumer doesn't want to mess with hooking up additional boxes and IR blasters. Leased cable boxes are winning the battle because of their convenience and lower cost (or at least that perception).

The short term solution is for a backend IP connection to replace tuning adapters along with new rules to help place retail boxes on a more even playing field with cable company boxes.

I think reliable access to all linear programming is more than half the battle. A lot of people are happy to substitute Netflix and/or Amazon for the cable company's PPV.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

crxssi said:


> I already pay the $2/mo for the cablecard fee (which seems norm or low). But "additional outlet fees"? Didn't those all go away many years ago? Cox has no such thing...


It's a crapshoot on Comcast - I recently bought one of the $100 Tivo HDs at Blockbuster and Comcast added it as an 'additional Cablecard' for $1.50/mo. to my account (I have two HDs now and no STBs). But they could've easily added it as an extra digital outlet (Cablecard fee included) for $7/mo. depending on how they choose to bill for it. That's what happens in other areas, or they'll try to stick you with a bogus 'HD Tech fee' which also gets applied to HD STBs and DVRs.

The other problem with a dual tuner Tivo doing IR blasting for HD recording is that you have to rent TWO STBs, not one, if you want full functionality, so it's not an apples to apples comparison to the Cablecard charge.

Just say no to IR blasting and HD recording over component. We need real solutions from the FCC and the video industry, not kludges. But I agree that most customers don't care and are willing to put up with crappy STBs & DVRs, and that's sad.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

crxssi said:


> I already pay the $2/mo for the cablecard fee (which seems norm or low). But "additional outlet fees"? Didn't those all go away many years ago? Cox has no such thing...


My Cox franchise (Northern Virginia) still has additional outlet fees. It's like $6.xx per outlet. Shortly after I got set up last summer, I called them to explain that even though I have 3 CableCARDs, I only have two televisions. So they've adjusted my bill/service, but credit me back two AOs instead of one every month. Regardless, my bill rarely makes sense. And my Comcast bills before Cox likewise rarely made sense. Here's a capture for August (which doesn't show the $45/mo basic cable fee/portion):










I agree with slowbiscuit's hopes, but have doubts the FCC is actually empowered to require/enforce such things. Cable will have to decide it's in their best interest to open things up. Otherwise, we'll continue to collectively sputter along, beholden to the cable-co.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

davezatz said:


> My Cox franchise (Northern Virginia) still has additional outlet fees. It's like $6.xx per outlet.


Oh! I had no idea they were charging multiple "gateways"- one for each device! That is scummy. I have only 1 device, and had assumed the gateway was a household charge.



> I agree with slowbiscuit's hopes, but have doubts the FCC is actually empowered to require/enforce such things. Cable will have to decide it's in their best interest to open things up. Otherwise, we'll continue to collectively sputter along, beholden to the cable-co.


And I agree with you. The FCC won't have the power nor the guts to do it. And the cable companies will NEVER decide it is in their best interests to open ANYTHING up, not unless there were penalties for not doing so.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, that's the real problem - it's their pipes and they want full control over your viewing experience, usually so they can try to make more money off of you. They don't want you to use your own boxes.

IMO none of this will change until the FCC/Congress changes cable delivery to common carrier status so that any company can use the pipes to feed video/internet/phone into your house. But that will never happen due to lobbying.


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