# Upside Down Hard Drive



## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

I've been wondering this for awhile, and I've not seen a thread about it, but why would Tivo mount the hard drive upside down in the Premiere models? I've heard people say it wont hurt the drive and then a few say its not good for it. If you look at the bracket its mounted on, they couldve easily made the holes lower and mounted it right side up, but if you try to take it out and then mount it that way you cant close the box back up, yes I tried.

I'm just curious of others thoughts on this. Was there a specific reason they did this? Or thats just how it ended up?


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MeInDallas said:


> I've been wondering this for awhile, and I've not seen a thread about it, but why would Tivo mount the hard drive upside down in the Premiere models? I've heard people say it wont hurt the drive and then a few say its not good for it. If you look at the bracket its mounted on, they couldve easily made the holes lower and mounted it right side up, but if you try to take it out and then mount it that way you cant close the box back up, yes I tried.
> 
> I'm just curious of others thoughts on this. Was there a specific reason they did this? Or thats just how it ended up?


Perhaps for better cooling airflow.

Is there enough clearance to add on of those hard drive fans that would ordinarily be under, gravitationally speaking, the drive?


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

It's not upside down, drives can be mounted with either flat side up, actually in any position with a flat side down.

There's also a slight preference in some designs to have the PCB up to help dissipate heat buildup.


----------



## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

unitron said:


> Perhaps for better cooling airflow.
> 
> Is there enough clearance to add on of those hard drive fans that would ordinarily be under, gravitationally speaking, the drive?


Theres no clearance at all. The bottom side is right at the top of the box almost with maybe a few centimeters between. Heres a pic of the bracket, and if they had drilled those holes lower then you could fit the drive in there right side up. Just really strange that they would mount it that way.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MeInDallas said:


> Theres no clearance at all. The bottom side is right at the top of the box almost with maybe a few centimeters between. Heres a pic of the bracket, and if they had drilled those holes lower then you could fit the drive in there right side up. Just really strange that they would mount it that way.


If they've got the drive that far up in the air, maybe there's room underneath for a hard drive fan.

You'll just have to figure out a mounting method that doesn't rely on the 4 holes on the circuit board side of the drive.

(3M white foam mounting tape, perhaps?)

And of course the whole "where to get the power for it" question.

For those who actually want to do it, look into 3M T-tap quick connects.


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Yeah, the mounting of a regular desktop hard drive in operation is any of the 6 faces down. Hard drive manufacturers are sort of forced into this situation because computer cases can put hard drives with any side down (I've seen cases where drives are mounted so the side is facing down, or the front or back. Upside down happens too, usually on cases where the case flips open and the hard drive mounts end up flipping over, or on drive brackets (one of my PCs uses drive brackets and the bracket holds the drive upside down in the case).

Heck, perhaps it's done because it's easier to assemble TiVo that way.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Yes, it really doesn't matter which side is facing up. The OP should not even worry about it and install the drive as TiVo intended.

I have no idea who would say it's not good for the drive to be mounted this way. It really makes no difference. I've used a couple hundred drives over the last seventeen years and had them mounted multiple ways. I've never had an issue with them.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I agree it doesn't matter what side is up. 

In the past computer manufactures used to make cases designed to allow the user to set the case up like a tower or to lay flat so you could sit your CRT Monitor on it. The hard drives and the other disk drives worked however you had the case set.


----------



## Soapm (May 9, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> I agree it doesn't matter what side is up..


Unless there is a sudden jolt then the bits may fall off the platters if you have the drive upside down... It's harder to knock the bits off the platters if you mount the drive upside right. Everyone knows that...


----------



## Ed_Hunt (Jan 2, 2004)

But the drive is magnetic so if the bits fall off they come right back again don't they? But then how would they get into the right order? I'm going to mount mine right side up so that doesn't happen. I just won't put the cover on.


----------



## ronaldheft (Aug 18, 2011)

Ed_Hunt said:


> But the drive is magnetic so if the bits fall off they come right back again don't they? But then how would they get into the right order? I'm going to mount mine right side up so that doesn't happen. I just won't put the cover on.


Not sure if you're playing along, but Soapm was making a joke. There is nothing physical about a bit, it's just a magnetic charge, so it can't fall off a hard drive.

What people worry about with a sudden jolt is not bits falling off the platter, but the magnetic head (which is sort of like the needle on an old record player) physically hitting the disk and scratching it. When a scratch occurs it throws off the magnetic readings in that area of the disk, causing data loss.

Based on years of experience with hard drives, there is no correct way to mount a hard drive. If there was, hard drives would have a "this side up" label on them. The only concern is physical motion while the hard drive is operating, so just don't shake your TiVo while it's on and you'll be ok.


----------



## Soapm (May 9, 2007)

Ed_Hunt said:


> But the drive is magnetic so if the bits fall off they come right back again don't they? But then how would they get into the right order? I'm going to mount mine right side up so that doesn't happen. *I just won't put the cover on.*


If you leave the cover off, make sure it's not near a dust buster. That'll suck the bits right out of it...


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Ed_Hunt said:


> But the drive is magnetic so if the bits fall off they come right back again don't they? But then how would they get into the right order? I'm going to mount mine right side up so that doesn't happen. I just won't put the cover on.


Careful if you take the cover off. The bits can fall off and stick onto something else. Cleaning up that mess is a seriously annoying job. Plus TiVos have fans which blow them around and they can really embed themselves in all the nooks and crannies of the TiVo. Especially if they get caught under the processor.


----------



## zowwie85 (Jul 25, 2010)

This thread is funny. I'm so glad Token-Ring networking died out before it ever became a possibility in the home - remember when the token would sometimes fall out when a device was unplugged? Darned shame if that happened behind a piece of furniture.


----------



## Ed_Hunt (Jan 2, 2004)

LOL, thats all I have to say.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

zowwie85 said:


> This thread is funny. I'm so glad Token-Ring networking died out before it ever became a possibility in the home - remember when the token would sometimes fall out when a device was unplugged? Darned shame if that happened behind a piece of furniture.


sorry i have to correct your spelling. That's a common misconception.

While sometimes colloquially called a "token ring"- The original engineer who developed the standard, Willian Bo Baggins, actually named it a Tolkien Ring. Each site's network engineer used to be called the lord of the ring.

When the connectors would fall off and land behind the furniture sometimes you would move the furniture and they would be gone. As if a hobbit or something had just ran off with them or perhaps they fell down a rabbit hole or something like it


----------



## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

MichaelK said:


> sorry i have to correct your spelling. That's a common misconception.
> 
> While sometimes colloquially called a "token ring"- The original engineer who developed the standard, Willian Bo Baggins, actually named it a Tolkien Ring. Each site's network engineer used to be called the lord of the ring.
> 
> When the connectors would fall off and land behind the furniture sometimes you would move the furniture and they would be gone. As if a hobbit or something had just ran off with them or perhaps they fell down a rabbit hole or something like it


You should have mentioned the real reason the Tolkien Ring standard ultimately failed. Their was a corruption issue with the master ring. This resulted in most of the lesser rings being corrupted as well, and the only remedy was to destroy the master ring. Once the master ring was destroyed, there was no way to bring back the system controlled by the master ring. Though the engineer who orchestrated the end of the corruption has been credited as the one who developed the standard, he is merely the one who finally brought the corrupted Tolkien Ring system to an end - Thereby paving the way for a new ultimate battle to break free of corrupted systems, fought primarily between the forces of Microsoft and an Apple.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Worf said:


> Yeah, the mounting of a regular desktop hard drive in operation is any of the 6 faces down. Hard drive manufacturers are sort of forced into this situation because computer cases can put hard drives with any side down ...





aaronwt said:


> Yes, it really doesn't matter which side is facing up. The OP should not even worry about it and install the drive as TiVo intended.
> 
> I have no idea who would say it's not good for the drive to be mounted this way. It really makes no difference. I've used a couple hundred drives over the last seventeen years and had them mounted multiple ways. I've never had an issue with them.


The real story is up to the drive manufacturer. In the past I've seen drive documents that say to not install the drive circuit side up, or connector side up. Not so much these days when I think they long since perfected the mechanical issues.

You STILL can't run most hard drives at high altitudes like 10,00 feet or above because the flying heads need enough air pressure to fly. Same with cold below 40 degrees F or so.

READ THE SPEC SHEET.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

zowwie85 said:


> This thread is funny. I'm so glad Token-Ring networking died out before it ever became a possibility in the home - remember when the token would sometimes fall out when a device was unplugged? Darned shame if that happened behind a piece of furniture.


The real problem was that once the ethernet became common you couldn't mix it with token ring because the tokens kept getting caught in the ether net.


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

*Token*, not tokens. There's only one on token ring (it's why it's not called tokens ring).

So yeah, trying to mix up your token ring with ethernet was basically useless because you'd need someone standing by just to take the token out of the net and put it on the other side, after which it promptly gets caught again.

We fixed it by using a token gun to shoot the token through the net, blasting a hole so it doesn't get caught anymore. Problem is, tokens are extremely delicate, and after the third hole or so, it was so deformed it wouldn't fit through the token ring anymore and after the fifth hole, it just disintegrated.

Try explaining THAT to your boss. And tokens are extremely hard to find - it's like they only supply one with the network. TO get another required swapping out all the hardware and cabling. Talk about a scam. These days I think people recover them so if you need it, you can search eBay for a new-to-you one.


----------



## Ed_Hunt (Jan 2, 2004)

"These days I think people recover them so if you need it, you can search eBay for a new-to-you one."

Thanks I found just what I needed.


----------



## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

MeInDallas said:


> I've been wondering this for awhile, and I've not seen a thread about it, but why would Tivo mount the hard drive upside down in the Premiere models? I've heard people say it wont hurt the drive and then a few say its not good for it. If you look at the bracket its mounted on, they couldve easily made the holes lower and mounted it right side up, but if you try to take it out and then mount it that way you cant close the box back up, yes I tried.
> 
> I'm just curious of others thoughts on this. Was there a specific reason they did this? Or thats just how it ended up?


Mine wasn't upside down. Did you check to see if yours was built on a Monday or a Friday?


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

lillevig said:


> Mine wasn't upside down. Did you check to see if yours was built on a Monday or a Friday?


In a Premiere it was mounted label up?

It didn't lool like the brackets would accomodate that.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

lillevig said:


> Mine wasn't upside down. Did you check to see if yours was built on a Monday or a Friday?


Unless they changed the mounting bracket, you can't mount it right side up and still be able to close the lid.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

rainwater said:


> Unless they changed the mounting bracket, you can't mount it right side up and still be able to close the lid.


No! No! TiVo now has a thiner drive, model *WDxxxthin* that they use on Mondays and Fridays, that drive can be mounted up or down, when mounted up TiVo has a small extension drive connector to make it all fit.


----------



## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

lessd said:


> No! No! TiVo now has a thiner drive, model *WDxxxthin* that they use on Mondays and Fridays, that drive can be mounted up or down, when mounted up TiVo has a small extension drive connector to make it all fit.


This is more humor, of course. There have been some chuckles in this thread recently. But, people: Don't quit your day jobs to go into standup comedy.


----------



## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

unitron said:


> In a Premiere it was mounted label up?
> 
> It didn't lool like the brackets would accomodate that.


It's not, they are just making jokes and not being serious. All the hard drives in the Series 4 Premiere, Premiere XL, and Elite are mounted upside down.


----------



## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

unitron said:


> In a Premiere it was mounted label up?
> 
> It didn't lool like the brackets would accomodate that.





rainwater said:


> Unless they changed the mounting bracket, you can't mount it right side up and still be able to close the lid.


Press Release: Mr. Lillevig's campaign manager has issued the following statement: This is yet another attack on our candidate by his political foes. Mr. Lillevig did not explicitly state, not did he intend to imply, that the drive was mounted label side up. Given that there is technically not a "wrong way" to mount a drive, Mr. Lillevig was, in fact, correct in his statement that his drive was mounted "right side up".


----------



## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

L David Matheny said:


> This is more humor, of course. There have been some chuckles in this thread recently. But, people: Don't quit your day jobs to go into standup comedy.


Good. My day job is being retired and I'd hate to give that up.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

This is like a debate some electricians get into.
Whether a receptacle is supposed to be mounted ground up or ground down when installed vertically.


----------



## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

OK let me say this, I never said it wasnt supposed to be mounted upside down. Western Digital's website specifically states it is fine to be mounted this way. And I'm OK with that and have no problems with it being mounted this way. I was just curious as to why Tivo put it this way, when its obvious that they couldve mounted it right side up in the same bracket had they just placed the holes differently. I was just looking for maybe some input and a discussion as to why they would do it. In all their other models they put it right side up, so why in the Premiere did they decide to put it upside down. I'm totally not worried about it being upside down in any way. I just thought maybe someone might know "hey they did it because of . . . . . "


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

steve614 said:


> This is like a debate some electricians get into.
> Whether a receptacle is supposed to be mounted ground up or ground down when installed vertically.


The electrical code in certain areas requires the ground to be up.


----------



## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> Yes, it really doesn't matter which side is facing up. The OP should not even worry about it and install the drive as TiVo intended.
> 
> I've used a couple hundred drives over the last seventeen years and had them mounted multiple ways. I've never had an issue with them.


Maybe you could have used a couple less if mounted differently?


----------



## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

MeInDallas said:


> OK let me say this, I never said it wasnt supposed to be mounted upside down. Western Digital's website specifically states it is fine to be mounted this way. And I'm OK with that and have no problems with it being mounted this way. I was just curious as to why Tivo put it this way, when its obvious that they couldve mounted it right side up in the same bracket had they just placed the holes differently. I was just looking for maybe some input and a discussion as to why they would do it. In all their other models they put it right side up, so why in the Premiere did they decide to put it upside down. I'm totally not worried about it being upside down in any way. I just thought maybe someone might know "hey they did it because of . . . . . "


Maybe cause it was right side up when assembled in China?


----------



## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> Maybe cause it was right side up when assembled in China?


That explains everything! Never thought of it!


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

MeInDallas said:


> OK let me say this, I never said it wasnt supposed to be mounted upside down. Western Digital's website specifically states it is fine to be mounted this way. And I'm OK with that and have no problems with it being mounted this way. I was just curious as to why Tivo put it this way, when its obvious that they couldve mounted it right side up in the same bracket had they just placed the holes differently. I was just looking for maybe some input and a discussion as to why they would do it. In all their other models they put it right side up, so why in the Premiere did they decide to put it upside down. I'm totally not worried about it being upside down in any way. I just thought maybe someone might know "hey they did it because of . . . . . "


I'm guessing it just made it easier to use the sata/power connector without twisting it. Although it seems it would of been easier to fix that than the drive mount.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> Maybe cause it was right side up when assembled in China?


You're looking for the Jerermy Lin "***** in their armor" Espn Racist Headline thread, which is over here

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=483357


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

lillevig said:


> Press Release: Mr. Lillevig's campaign manager has issued the following statement: This is yet another attack on our candidate by his political foes. Mr. Lillevig did not explicitly state, not did he intend to imply, that the drive was mounted label side up. Given that there is technically not a "wrong way" to mount a drive, Mr. Lillevig was, in fact, correct in his statement that his drive was mounted "right side up".


Further, in time honored political tradition, Mr. Lillevig's earlier pronouncement was "not intended to be a factual statement".


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

steve614 said:


> This is like a debate some electricians get into.
> Whether a receptacle is supposed to be mounted ground up or ground down when installed vertically.


In North America, the general convention is ground-down as normal. However, sometimes they're mounted ground-up to indicate it's a switched outlet (used for rooms that have no ceiling lights and require the owner to supply a standing light fixture. The switch lets you turn the fixture on and off at a more convenient location).

In most other countries, the ground pin is normally on top by design.


----------



## Soapm (May 9, 2007)

unitron said:


> Further, in time honored political tradition, Mr. Lillevig's earlier pronouncement was "not intended to be a factual statement".


"Jerry, just remember, *it's not a lie if you believe it*". George Costanza


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Worf said:


> In North America, the general convention is ground-down as normal. However, sometimes they're mounted ground-up to indicate it's a switched outlet (used for rooms that have no ceiling lights and require the owner to supply a standing light fixture. The switch lets you turn the fixture on and off at a more convenient location).
> 
> In most other countries, the ground pin is normally on top by design.


In the USA ground up is the standard in the code but outside hospitals and maybe some commercial installation's its not done that way. The reason for ground up is; as you pull a plug out with a knife (or paper clip) on top of the plug the knife will hit the ground not the live pins of the plug.


----------



## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

Soapm said:


> "Jerry, just remember, *it's not a lie if you believe it*". George Costanza


:up::up::up:


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lessd said:


> In the USA ground up is the standard in the code but outside hospitals and maybe some commercial installation's its not done that way. The reason for ground up is; as you pull a plug out with a knife (or paper clip) on top of the plug the knife will hit the ground not the live pins of the plug.


which code?

the NEC says that?

then why is it NEVER enforced?

Why are UL listed devices that have grounding pins all made so they are right side up when the grounding pin is down (like an appliance timer, CO detector, etc)?

Why are GFCI outlets made with "test" and "reset" wording on the buttons right side up with the grounding conductor down?

I dont think the NEC says anything about it but if it did it probably would say down.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> which code?
> 
> the NEC says that?
> 
> ...


It does not say down, for homes it is recommended to be up (_*Electrical*_ _*Wiring Residential *_by _*Ray Mullin *_1996 page 39) but there is no actual code for homes but there is for hospitals, next time your in any health facility look at the receptacles, the ground is up.
If the code on ground hole position for receptacles changed from 1996 (when I wired my new home) I will stand corrected as I am not going to purchase a up-to-date code book to prove my point.
All pictures of receptacles in the NEC book that i have (1997) does show the ground hole up.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> which code?
> 
> the NEC says that?
> 
> ...


The NEC doesn't state which way a receptacle is to be mounted. That's why there is debate. 
And if you look at any GFCI receptacle manufactured recently, the "test" and "reset" is etched both ways so that it is readable no matter if the ground is up or down.



lessd said:


> It does not say down, for homes it is recommended to be up (_*Electrical*_ _*Wiring Residential *_by _*Ray Mullin *_1996 page 39) but there is no actual code for homes but there is for hospitals, next time your in any health facility look at the receptacles, the ground is up.
> If the code on ground hole position for receptacles changed from 1996 (when I wired my new home) I will stand corrected as I am not going to purchase a up-to-date code book to prove my point.
> All pictures of receptacles in the NEC book that i have (1997) does show the ground hole up.


Can you give a page number for any pictures? I have a copy of the NEC for 1990 and 2011. There are very few pictures in either.
I have scanned both under article 517 'Health Care Facilities', and could find nothing requiring the orientation be one way or the other. 
If you can find any such requirement in your 1996 NEC, post which article you found it under. I am genuinely interested.

Regarding the book by Ray Mullin, that is just a recommendation based on his opinion. I have to admit they are logical recommendations, but that is all they are...recommendations.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Apparently doing it the "wrong" way (3rd prong down) became convention before it occurred to the NFPA to specify the "right" way in the NEC.

Or as someone once said about the computer industry, "That's the nice thing about standards, there're so many of them."


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

lessd said:


> In the USA ground up is the standard in the code but outside hospitals and maybe some commercial installation's its not done that way. The reason for ground up is; as you pull a plug out with a knife (or paper clip) on top of the plug the knife will hit the ground not the live pins of the plug.


That's the general reasoning why every other plug design in the world puts ground on top. You could go like the Germans who have it in 4 places (above, below and sides in line with the power pins). The UK plug often has an insulator around the base of the power pins so if you don't insert it all the way, you can't touch a live contact.

Heck, I think some of the special plugs (dryer, oven) have ground on top.

The Aussie plug has ground on top.

Of course, for hospitals, given the general nature of the patients, having ground up is a generally good idea.

For normal North American home use though, if you see an upside down plug, it usually means it's externally switched. (You can have switched outlets that are normal, but some electricians like to flip it around so homeowners don't wonder why the socket doesn't seem to always work and don't try to plug anything more than lamps into it).


----------



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

there is one thing about it being mounted upside-down that confuses me: the cables run right over the heat sink. And that thing gets pretty toasty, so that can't be a good thing over time, can it?


----------



## gtaylor (Jan 8, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> It's not upside down, drives can be mounted with either flat side up, actually in any position *with a flat side down*.
> 
> There's also a slight preference in some designs to have the PCB up to help dissipate heat buildup.


My Zyxel NAS holds the drives 90 degrees to that -- am I in trouble? Should I lay it on its side instead of putting it in the stand? That would seem to create a possible heat problem.

gary


----------



## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

Worf said:


> Yeah, the mounting of a regular desktop hard drive in operation is any of the 6 faces down. Hard drive manufacturers are sort of forced into this situation because computer cases can put hard drives with any side down (I've seen cases where drives are mounted so the side is facing down, or the front or back. Upside down happens too, usually on cases where the case flips open and the hard drive mounts end up flipping over, or on drive brackets (one of my PCs uses drive brackets and the bracket holds the drive upside down in the case).
> 
> Heck, perhaps it's done because it's easier to assemble TiVo that way.


Ah you mean the way Dell OptiPlex clamshell desktops were opened?? [media]http://gogreenpc.net/Photo%20Library/Desktop/Dell/Optiplex%20GX270%20Desktop/Dell%20Optiplex%20GX270%20Desktop%20-%20Large%20-%20Open%20View.jpg[/media]


----------



## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

JWhites said:


> Ah you mean the way Dell OptiPlex clamshell desktops were opened?? [media]http://gogreenpc.net/Photo%20Library/Desktop/Dell/Optiplex%20GX270%20Desktop/Dell%20Optiplex%20GX270%20Desktop%20-%20Large%20-%20Open%20View.jpg[/media]


Aren't those the same ones that were at the front-and-center when the capacitor plague hit?

I don't know the models, but I have one Dell tower and one Dell desktop, which both open like that. They were "gifted" to me from people I knew that upgraded. Upon seeing all the bulged/blown-out caps, they wound up in my storage room, never to be used again...

Anybody need anything from them before recalling that I have them prompts me to dispose of them? They were P4 1.8GHz non-HT vintage.

The design was decent, for what it was at the time, and how much got packed in such little space. Too bad they had to go with cheap caps...

As far as hard drive orientation, it really is up to the drive manufacturer to specify IF they have a necessary, or preferred position. I think as long as the drive has adequate ambient cooling, and stays stationary, it makes very little difference.

I had six WD 500GB drives in one tower. I mounted two up, two down, and two sideways, which ALL failed, with the sideways ones dying first, and giving me just enough time to buy new drives, and begin data-recovery on what was left.

The autopsies I performed, showed the fluid dynamic bearings lost their fluid, wore through the Teflon, and into to brass. The sideways drives had worn deeper, faster. I think it was a matter of poor design. The span between the first drive being unable to spin-up, and the last one, was within a month, maybe two, at most. They were nearly sequential serial numbers, and lasted two months past the warranty date. As I could find no trace of where the fluid from the FD bearings went (it wasn't on the platters, heads, or the internal filters, that I could see), I feel it was poor design and/or a bad batch. I would normally expect a larger time span between failure. I would also expect to find the fluid on the platters, if missing from around the spindle bearings...


----------



## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

How will I ever get the time back that I just spent reading this thread?


----------



## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm actually surprised someone revived this thread. I was just curious when I started this thread what Tivo's reasoning might be for mounting it that way, when it wouldve been a lot better for the sata connector and the power wires to be mounted with the label side of the drive up, and they wouldnt be right over the heat sink. I've opened a couple of the Premiere's up in the last couple of years only to find the wires right on top of the heat sink, and even a couple of the power wires were caught in it. The last couple of boxes I bought, the first thing I did was open them up and make sure the wires are out of the way of the heat sink. Oh well, who knows why Tivo does what it does anymore. I gave up wondering a long time ago.


----------



## fdisker2000 (Nov 27, 2006)

If it really mattered which way a hard drive is mounted then the original iPods (now the Classics) would have had many problems for the last twelve years.


----------



## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

fdisker2000 said:


> If it really mattered which way a hard drive is mounted then the original iPods (now the Classics) would have had many problems for the last twelve years.


Those are completely differently engineered hard drives. Laptop drives also are engineered differently.

The drives used in TiVos are DESKTOP PC/DVR drives, which aren't engineered for being moved around while spinning, or designed to protect themselves when sudden movement, or a shock-force/free-fall is sensed (because the hardware/firmware/software isn't present).

Even my laptop, which I am using right now, is about two more bumps away from depleting the G-sense error rate SMART threshold, which stumps me, since it is used like a desktop. I'm on my third hard drive. Lenovo failed to provide ANY airflow, or heat-dissipating elements, for the hard drive, so it's in the caution-zone when idling, and red-zone overheating the drive, when it is busy. Thankfully, the extended warranty doesn't care. I'd bet Lenovo isn't one of WD's favorite OEMs, though. EVERY Lenovo laptop in the house has the same problem, regardless of its age, or the user.

Your comparison is a completely moot-point. No offense intended.


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Big OEMs usually self-warranty. You can tell if the hard drive says "Contact the OEM for warranty service" rather than the label being full of "Visit our web page for diagnostic tools and setup information" wording.

The former means the OEM bought say, 1000 hard drives, and the hard drive manufacturer says they expect 5% to fail over the warranty period (90 days or 1 year or so) and thus ships 1050 drives.

And yes, these drives can be warranted less because if your device runs out of ITS warranty, the hard drive will also be unwarranted. (This happened to me a few times - the warranty being a 1 year warranty, but the hard drive if it wasn't self-warranted would've had a 3 year warranty. As a result, I couldn't do an RMA).

Note that OEM drives bought from say, NewEgg and the like aren't self-warranted usually and have full warranties. The label just gives the usual "see web site for setup, installation and diagnostic instructions" labels.


----------



## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

nooneuknow said:


> Aren't those the same ones that were at the front-and-center when the capacitor plague hit?
> 
> I don't know the models, but I have one Dell tower and one Dell desktop, which both open like that. They were "gifted" to me from people I knew that upgraded. Upon seeing all the bulged/blown-out caps, they wound up in my storage room, never to be used again...
> 
> ...


Yeah that's the style that had the capacitor issue. From what I recall they were the GX270 and GX260 desktop form factor models. I actually have a GX270 around here somewhere and it works exceptionally well however due to the unique form factor, it's near impossible to find a half height PCI graphics card to fit in it which leaves me with having to use the less then stellar to todays standards internal graphics which doesn't seem to like a resolution of 1280x1024 even for web browsing and Facebook usage, and of course specs are limited to XP. From a technician point of view, I really liked the modular design they had, especially with having the motherboard on a removable tray for easy swapping in the field, how everything was easy to replace without the need for tools, and that it all was universal across form factors so I could replace a cd drive, motherboard, hard drive, floppy drive, and ribbons and cables from a tower form factor and put it in a desktop form factor and vice versa if I ever needed to, all without having to take off or remove any screws or brackets, it all just slid in and clicked. Damn, now that's how you build a business grade computer.

Anyway regarding the hard drives, I agree that it seems like a bad batch and even possibly poor design.


----------



## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

Worf said:


> Big OEMs usually self-warranty. You can tell if the hard drive says "Contact the OEM for warranty service" rather than the label being full of "Visit our web page for diagnostic tools and setup information" wording.
> 
> The former means the OEM bought say, 1000 hard drives, and the hard drive manufacturer says they expect 5% to fail over the warranty period (90 days or 1 year or so) and thus ships 1050 drives.
> 
> ...


That's correct, both TiVo and PC manufacturers buy a boatload of hard drives with sequential serial numbers from the manufacturer and register them so even if you put in the serial number onto the Seagate or Western Digital website, it just tells you that you'll need to contact the OEM"
I'm surprised that a large majority of TiVo Premiere series models have Seagate hard drives in them even though they refuse to support Seagate DVR Expanders in favor of Western Digital's own Expanders.


----------



## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Worf said:


> Big OEMs usually self-warranty. You can tell if the hard drive says "Contact the OEM for warranty service" rather than the label being full of "Visit our web page for diagnostic tools and setup information" wording.
> 
> The former means the OEM bought say, 1000 hard drives, and the hard drive manufacturer says they expect 5% to fail over the warranty period (90 days or 1 year or so) and thus ships 1050 drives.
> 
> ...


That all makes sense, is logical, is what I would expect, and agrees with what WD states about drives that come as a part of a product, as opposed to an OEM bare drive, sold to an end-user...

I actually previously tested the concept that an end-user of a TiVo might not be able to return a failed TiVo drive under any sort of warranty, to WD directly. I was surprised that the drive labels had all the same info as a drive from Newegg, even more surprised when I was able to both resister, and RMA a drive from a TiVo Premiere. My best GUESS as to why this was possible, is that somebody isn't pre-registering the drives as being sold to TiVo. So, you can register them yourself.

WD's system wouldn't (shouldn't) even allow you to register a drive that went through the channels, PROPERLY, which would be a situation where WD's system would already know that the drive was part of a product, not a stand-alone OEM bare drive.

I did, however, make sure to CAREFULLY remove any additional labels TiVo added to the drive (erring on the side of caution), before sending it back. It's critical that you don't damage the WD labels, in the cases where TiVo applied labels overlap/obscure the WD labels.

Just for the heck of it, I tried, and successfully registered EVERY TiVo Premiere, and TiVo HD drive, I have, as my own. The rest are all out of warranty now. But, it's good to know that this can work. You can also get discounts, when ordering directly from WD, if you allow WD to VOID-out any remaining warranty on any qualifying drives/products, which you have registered to yourself.

My advice: Make sure you TRY to register the serial number of every OEM drive that is in any product you own. I'd guess, the sooner, the better, before this overlooked matter may come to the attention of WD. What is also interesting, is that WD does NOT require proof of purchase, nor does the warranty necessarily end on the date printed on the drive. I found that if you register a drive a day after the printed label warranty date has lapsed, you can get up to a year more time (usually more like three to six months) beyond that date. It isn't the date printed on the drive, it's the date they determine, once registered, that is your warranty end date. All you need to register is the serial number, and a user account with WD.

Edit/Add: I was also able to register, and get full warranty with the OEM WD Lenovo laptop drives, even though I use Fry's extended warranty to get them replaced as they fail (which happens every few months). So far, the only WD drives that I got rejected from registering as stand-alone drives, came in WD enclosures, or products like the WD TV Live Hub, which have internal drives.

I can't speak for the situation with other drive manufacturers.


----------



## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

JWhites said:


> That's correct, both TiVo and PC manufacturers buy a boatload of hard drives with sequential serial numbers from the manufacturer and register them so even if you put in the serial number onto the Seagate or Western Digital website, it just tells you that you'll need to contact the OEM"


See the post I just wrote up about being able to register every WD TiVo drive I have with WD as being my own, and being able to get full warranty (even though you are correct, and that should NOT be possible).


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

TiVo's not big enough to self-warranty. They buy regular OEM drives that you get from NewEgg and the like. The only difference between these OEM drives and retail drives is the packaging - OEM drives are sold bare in huge lots, while retail drives come in retail packaging for individual sale. Retail drives often also come with extras as well. But the drive in the retail box and the drive you buy from NewEgg are the same. If the drive fails here, you return the drive to WD or Seagate because they're warranted through them.

Lenovo and HP and the big guys? They self-warranty. These drives are not relabelled OEM drives, they're lots made specially for these guys, and they buy enough that they can get relabelled ones. These ones are registered to the drive manufacturer as "OEM supported" and you return the drive to Lenovo, HP, etc, not WD or Seagate.

Your white box PC assembler, TiVo and other low-volume manufacturers get drives warranted by the drive manufacturer. The nice thing is it's often possible to get the drive replaced even when the device is out of warranty. These have regular labels that say to visit their web site for setup and installation instructions, etc.

The only thing to be careful of is "New Old Stock" drives that have the "Contact the OEM for warranty" label on them - basically, the drives have no warranty. 

It's easy to tell - the drives that are self-warranted are obvious in that they're missing a lot of information (they pretty much just have regulatory and information label, but nothing about setup and installation or even jumper installation).


----------



## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

I've never been able to register a Western Digital drive thru WD that came in a Tivo. God knows I have been thru a ton of them. Every drive I have ever tried to look up on their website comes back "No Limited Warranty, Product was originally sold to a system manufacturer. Please contact the system manufacturer or the place of purchase for warranty service" every single time. If anyone has ever been able to do it I would consider yourself very lucky.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

MeInDallas said:


> I've never been able to register a Western Digital drive thru WD that came in a Tivo. God knows I have been thru a ton of them. Every drive I have ever tried to look up on their website comes back "No Limited Warranty, Product was originally sold to a system manufacturer. Please contact the system manufacturer or the place of purchase for warranty service" every single time. If anyone has ever been able to do it I would consider yourself very lucky.


Same for me


----------



## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

All I can say is, "That's strange", that I was able to do what others have not.

I don't doubt anybody saying "not me, it didn't work".

Maybe I picked a lucky window, where their registration system was not working properly, over at WD.

I just checked, and all my TiVo, and Lenovo laptop drives, are still registered in my name. The warranty period is over, for all TiVo original drives, but they are registered, and the warranties expired at the normal period (for end-user registered OEM drives).

Maybe they have me down as an actual equipment builder, from my days of being a white-box PC builder and supplier... But, I don't see why that would matter on OEM drives from other equipment.


----------

