# Sad but true: Leaving TiVo - best options & suggestions



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

Hi all.

it's a sad day but I'm finally giving up on my TiVo and switching to Sky+HD.

Not my first choice had a problem with ntl  long and stupid story...

Anyway I'm now looking to get rid of my TiVo. It's a basic unmodded Thomson with a standard monthly subscription.

Any suggestions as to best price, best place to dispose of the box, etc would be welcome. If at all possible I would rather not have to go through the joy of ebay.

All suggestions and advice welcome. Thanks in advance 

PS: I know that TiVo is a wonderful device but after 5+ years I'm tired of using ancient and unevolving technology....painful but true.

PPS: Even if Sky+HD turns out to be awful then I can still switch to the imminent ntl/telewest TVDrive...

PPPS: "_ancient and unevolving_" - that may be a little harsh but I never expected to have to rely on a group of (highly) talented enthusiasts to keep the device up to date.


----------



## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

I would keep TiVo - you can even use it with Sky HD.

It is ancient and unevolving hardware wise, but so is the spoon,fork,knife,chopsticks,sellotape,post-it notes etc. 

We do get a few new software hacks every now and then.

It is still the best PVR for the UK regarding metadata features.


----------



## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

I got to SkyHD at launch - but you'll still need TiVo to ensure you favourite programmes are recorded.

The series links on Sky EPG are far worse than those on TiVo.


----------



## davisa (Feb 19, 2002)

HyperionX said:


> PS: I know that TiVo is a wonderful device but after 5+ years I'm tired of using ancient and unevolving technology....painful but true.


I think a lot of us feel like this- BUT, and its a big but, there is STILL nothing on the UK market which is better, or even equal to the functionality and ease of use of TiVo. One of those rare times (like Concorde) where technology seems to go backwards?

Good luck with Sky+. Not being allowed a dish here, its something I can never have - which makes my choice easy.


----------



## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Don't sell it, as you will surely regret it. 

Why not do as others have done and keep TiVo for SD recordings and/or use it to control your Sky+ box...?

The TiVo UI may be unevolving, but moving to Sky+ will be like going back to the stone age compared to TiVo


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I have SkyHD, but certainly didn't get rid of the TiVo!


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Sad fact is that even if "money is no object", there still isn't anything superior in all respects to a tivo.

..and I was on a monthly sub for a few years precisely because I thought technology would surpass it within at least 2 years... 5 years on, and only MCE comes close...

I've owned most of the alternatives, and would rate them as follows

Tivo
MCE

Topfield* (not out of the box, but with TAPs and digiuide)
Humax *

TV Drive
Sky+

(*)One thing to remember is that if you want any premium channel (like SciFi) then
you CAN'T use topfield or most of the freeview recorders unless they also have a 
DVD recorder

MCE is the only real alternative, and coupled with a few xboxes as remote viewing stations - which can also stream from tivo - make a pretty good alternative.
It's still too clunky IMO though.

If its lack of multi channel recording, just buy another tivo and network 

Current setup: 3x tivos, TV drive, and few xboxes


----------



## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Sky boxes user interface also has not really changed since launch.

Sky HD UI made no changes to the UI either 

I also would keep my Tivo for SD recordings.

Automan.


blindlemon said:


> Don't sell it, as you will surely regret it.
> 
> Why not do as others have done and keep TiVo for SD recordings and/or use it to control your Sky+ box...?
> 
> The TiVo UI may be unevolving, but moving to Sky+ will be like going back to the stone age compared to TiVo


----------



## Tony Hoyle (Apr 1, 2002)

HyperionX said:


> Hi all.
> 
> it's a sad day but I'm finally giving up on my TiVo and switching to Sky+HD.


Not worth it IMO.

I've just gone back to Tivo after trying to cope with Sky+HD since May.

As far as unevolving goes - The SkyHD UI is identical to the Sky+ boxes that were around when Tivo was launched. They added HD decoding to their existing UI, that's all. Tivo was miles ahead then and it's even further ahead now with all the things that have been added since. It's very unlikely Sky+ will ever be networked or have anything like Tivoweb, or Digiguide plugins, or any of the many things we have now.

I ended up with a notepad with my series links written on it.. because Sky+ regularly deleted them without warning. The 7 day EPG is a joke, there's no meaningful search (what's there is worse than useless), and the thing crashes regularly.

Having HD isn't much help when the box has failed to record the programme you wanted to watch.

Keep the Tivo, so when Sky+ finally does your head in completely you can switch back.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

HyperionX said:


> Any suggestions as to best price, best place to dispose of the box, etc would be welcome. If at all possible I would rather not have to go through the joy of ebay.


£60 is all you will get for it on Ebay and I don't think you will manage to sell it any other way unless you happen to know someone at work or in your family who wants one. For £60 its really not worth selling in case you regret your decision once you have Sky HD and then decide to get rid of it within the 30 day change your mind period.

By the way have you done the maths on Sky HD. £47 per month x 12 = £564 + £299 for the box and installation = £863 in the first year!!! 



> PS: I know that TiVo is a wonderful device but after 5+ years I'm tired of using ancient and unevolving technology....painful but true.
> 
> PPS: Even if Sky+HD turns out to be awful then I can still switch to the imminent ntl/telewest TVDrive..


With respect I think it is actually you by choice have failed to take advantage of the many options for enhancing your Tivo with a larger hard drive, networking and web access with a Cachecard and all the enhanced control functionality of TivoWeb.

You complain Tivo does not get better yet then opt for a Sky product with an interface written for idiots that is almost never improved so as to avoid confusing those idiots or the idiots who work in the Sky call centres. 

The following show all the extra functionality you could have got out of your Tivo by upgrading it. Although it seems clear that you are someone who is fearful of the prospect of upgrading your Tivo yourself and clearly want an "off the shelf" product I think its worth pointing out that complete prepared replacement hard drive upgrade kits are available from both www. tivoheaven.co.uk and www.tivoland.com

Here are the upgrade links:-

www.steveconrad.co.uk/tivo

http://tivo.lightn.org/

www.ljay.org.uk/tivoweb/

www.garysargent.co.uk/tivo/hacking.htm

www.beaconhill.plus.com/TiVo/tivohacks.htm

http://www.arielbusiness.pwp.blueyo.../TiVo/HowTo.htm

http://alt.org/wiki/index.php/TiVoWeb Modules

http://thomson.tivo.googlepages.com

http://tivo.stevejenkins.com/network_cd.html

http://thomson.tivo.googlepages.com/tivowebplus

http://widgets.yahoo.com/gallery/?search=oztivo&x=0&y=0

www.tivohackman.com


----------



## b166er (Oct 24, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> With respect I think it is actually you by choice have failed to take advantage of the many options for enhancing your Tivo with a larger hard drive, networking and web access with a Cachecard and all the enhanced control functionality of TivoWeb.
> 
> Although it seems clear that you are someone who is fearful of the prospect of upgrading your Tivo yourself and clearly want an "off the shelf" product


Some good points there Pete. The OP doesn't need to understand Linux or any of the complex (but described as "simple") upgrade guides around. Simply ask someone like Blindlemon to provide you with a pre-built larger/fresher drive with TiVoWeb already on it. He'd send you a cachecard and the drive. Armed with only a couple of screwdrivers and less than an hour spare and you're all done. Switch it on and you've got more capacity, faster menus and TiVoWeb.

Once you play around with TiVoWeb and look at the modules you could install to it (like DailyMail, Endpad, Channel Logos, Backup Season Passes) you'll really want to fire up an FTP prog and get that stuff installed.

In my opinion, an upgraded TiVo is all the things you'd wish for in an evolved TiVo. I should have that as a signature 

Having your TiVo send you an email every day telling you how it's doing (e.g. whether the last daily call succeeded/failed, what it recorded since the last email, what stuff is there for you to watch, it's current temperature and up-time) sets you up nicely for the day. With the mod I made to DailyMail, it will even retry the daily call up to 10 times to make sure it is OK 

With TiVoWeb you can quickly and easily look through (and modify) the ToDo list. With a DynDNS setup you can access your TiVo remotely over the Internet. With Endpad and it's very clever logic, you can have varying intelligent padding on shows for those that start/finish early/late.

Really the only thing an upgraded TiVo is missing is HD support, and for that by all means upgrade from Sky to Sky HD, but don't think it's a replacement for TiVo because it isn't.


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

ozsat said:


> I got to SkyHD at launch - but you'll still need TiVo to ensure you favourite programmes are recorded.
> 
> The series links on Sky EPG are far worse than those on TiVo.


Thanks for the advice...I'll have to wait and see about the strength or otherwise of Sky+ series links.


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> Don't sell it, as you will surely regret it.
> 
> Why not do as others have done and keep TiVo for SD recordings and/or use it to control your Sky+ box...?
> 
> The TiVo UI may be unevolving, but moving to Sky+ will be like going back to the stone age compared to TiVo


Not sure of the point of having TiVo control (yet) another device with the less than ideal IR blasters etc when the Sky box can do the recordings on its own anyway...

Having said that it's worth considering I suppose...

Thank you for the suggestion.


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> £60 is all you will get for it on Ebay and I don't think you will manage to sell it any other way unless you happen to know someone at work or in your family who wants one. For £60 its really not worth selling in case you regret your decision once you have Sky HD and then decide to get rid of it within the 30 day change your mind period.
> 
> By the way have you done the maths on Sky HD. £47 per month x 12 = £564 + £299 for the box and installation = £863 in the first year!!!
> 
> ...


With respect I think it is actually you by choice have failed to take advantage of the many options for enhancing your Tivo with a larger hard drive, networking and web access with a Cachecard and all the enhanced control functionality of TivoWeb.

You complain Tivo does not get better yet then opt for a Sky product with an interface written for idiots that is almost never improved so as to avoid confusing those idiots or the idiots who work in the Sky call centres. 

The following show all the extra functionality you could have got out of your Tivo by upgrading it. Although it seems clear that you are someone who is fearful of the prospect of upgrading your Tivo yourself and clearly want an "off the shelf" product I think its worth pointing out that complete prepared replacement hard drive upgrade kits are available from both www. tivoheaven.co.uk and www.tivoland.com

Here are the upgrade links:-

www.steveconrad.co.uk/tivo

http://tivo.lightn.org/

www.ljay.org.uk/tivoweb/

www.garysargent.co.uk/tivo/hacking.htm

www.beaconhill.plus.com/TiVo/tivohacks.htm

http://www.arielbusiness.pwp.blueyo.../TiVo/HowTo.htm

http://alt.org/wiki/index.php/TiVoWeb Modules

http://thomson.tivo.googlepages.com

http://tivo.stevejenkins.com/network_cd.html

http://thomson.tivo.googlepages.com/tivowebplus

http://widgets.yahoo.com/gallery/?search=oztivo&x=0&y=0

www.tivohackman.com[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your advice. You might not have realised it but some of your advice seemed a little patronising. I'm sure it wasn't intended as such.

Thanks for the "possible" sale price - agree that £60 probably isn't worth it but actually it's the ongoing £10 a month that is more the issue.

As for the "maths" not sure how you reached the figures you provided:

Since I use subscription TV (either Sky or cable) I always have to pay at least £30 +VAT for channels before adding on the TiVo charges. As for the cost of the SkyHD box It actually cost me less than my TiVo originally did. Over all if I exclude the on off setup costs, my ongoing charges are very comparable - it's cheaper still if I stop subscribing to TiVo 

With regards to "upgrading" you're right, I choose not to because as far as I'm concerned I shouldn't have to. I don't have the time or the inclinantion to spend time adding in functionality that other similar products offer as standard, indeed that the product offers across the pond. Similarly I don't have the inclination to separately manage and maintain that functionality.

I don't be grudge anyone else who does have the inclination though. _Horses for courses as the cliche goes..._

Thank you for the information though. It's the level of commitment to TiVo that has made this such a difficult decision and makes the behaviour of the TiVo company all the more confusing.


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

b166er said:


> Some good points there Pete. The OP doesn't need to understand Linux or any of the complex (but described as "simple") upgrade guides around. Simply ask someone like Blindlemon to provide you with a pre-built larger/fresher drive with TiVoWeb already on it. He'd send you a cachecard and the drive. Armed with only a couple of screwdrivers and less than an hour spare and you're all done. Switch it on and you've got more capacity, faster menus and TiVoWeb.
> 
> Once you play around with TiVoWeb and look at the modules you could install to it (like DailyMail, Endpad, Channel Logos, Backup Season Passes) you'll really want to fire up an FTP prog and get that stuff installed.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this advice. But to be honest I'm not interested in making modifications to my TiVo - it would just be another thing to manage and maintain.

btw is it possible to get multiple tuners with TiVo?


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

Well following the outpouring of comments and advice following the original post I guess I can/will hold on to my TiVo for a while longer.

The only thing I'd like to know now then is where I can get information on how to connect my TiVo to my SkyHD box....?

I remember that previously someone (sorry I forget your name  ) suggested controlling the SkyHD box with TiVo...that might be interesting if it doesn't involve having to use the IR blasters...

Again advice welcome. :up:


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

When I referred to _ancient and unevolving_ I wasn't referring to the UI. That is clearly a very clean and forward thinking design. Timeless springs to mind. 

However so much else in an unmodded box has stayed static - it's made all the more obvious when you look at the authorised TiVo devices available in the US. Certainly the (imaginative and intelligent) enthusiast enhancements have made the non-US TiVo more viable, that (imho) is not the way to build and grow a business and/or product...

It's a shame that TiVo never got their act together to work with anyone outside of the US...as PVRs take off TiVo has managed to hand over the _rest of the world_ market in favour of the US market.

Don't get me on my soap box though...I would have stayed with TiVo if they had stayed with me. Damn you TiVo (US)!


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

HyperionX said:


> Thanks for the "possible" sale price - agree that £60 probably isn't worth it but actually it's the ongoing £10 a month that is more the issue.
> 
> As for the "maths" not sure how you reached the figures you provided:
> 
> ...


It is clearly a little unfortunate that some of you originally made the mistake of going for a monthly sub instead of a Lifetime Sub and that this is now leading you to begrudge the continued operation of Tivo at all even as a second PVR in the household. On the other hand if so many of you hadn't still been paying monthly up to now then perhaps Tivo wouldn't have been able to afford to continue running the Tivo UK service for so long up to this point.

On the maths issue I personally have an unsubbed Sky box and a Freeview box dual source setup feeding my Tivo and so the cost of going to Sky HD for me would be exactly as I describe. And what precisely is it that makes both you and many others here feel that having an expensive Sky sub is apparently absolutely essential when you also have a Tivo that lets you watch the best of unsubbed Tv, much of which is a great deal better than the multi channel satellite tv offerings? Are you perhaps an avid Premiership or test cricket fan then?

On the upgrading front its also unfortunate that you have apparently simply set your face totally against this as being too difficult without actually looking any further into the obvious benefits such as remote setting of your Tivo from work or while on holiday abroad and far easier control and deletion of programs (which could number into the hundreds with a 400Gb Samsung Hard Drive on board). Can I take it that you are perhaps someone who usually never ever does any DIY or any car maintenance yourself and always has a man in for servicing or repairing or installing absolutely everything?

As to your faith in the superiority of the Sky HD platform there seem to be plenty of reports here of Sky HD boxes regularly crashing and reformatting their whole hard drive wiping out all their recordings in the process. And that's before we consider regularly missed recordings due to broken Series Links.

On the second tuner and recording clash issue even this can be catered for with a Tivo S1 and networking them both together and then using Sanderton's conflict resolve module to schedule the clashing recording on the second Tivo box.

I agree that Tivo can't do HD recording but then realistically there aren't that many programs in HD at present and I very much doubt if most people notice the difference between an SD or an HD recording on a decent Plasma or LCD tv once they are wrapped up in following the program content. The difference between SD and HD tv is most definitely not as dramatic or significant as between black and white vs colour telly or even a wide screen tv versus a standard 4:3 television. It is of course undoubtedly the latest new thing but arguably more of a good marketing way to sell new tvs than a really essential must have that changes the whole way you watch television like a Tivo did.


----------



## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

HyperionX said:


> I would have stayed with TiVo if they had stayed with me.


This is a part of this recurring discussion that I never understand. My TiVo has degenerated - it still does everything it did for me when I got it 6 (?) years ago. Just because there are other toys out there to play with doesn't make my TiVo any worse.

Now, as it happens, I probably will be shutting down my own TiVo in the next few months, but that's because I can't be arsed with broadcast TV any more, not because TiVo no longer does its stuff.


----------



## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

HyperionX said:


> It's a shame that TiVo never got their act together to work with anyone outside of the US...as PVRs take off TiVo has managed to hand over the _rest of the world_ market in favour of the US market.
> 
> Don't get me on my soap box though...I would have stayed with TiVo if they had stayed with me. Damn you TiVo (US)!


Well they have been in Japan for a while, and launched in Taiwan... if only they relaunched a series 3 here


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> It is clearly a little unfortunate that some of you originally made the mistake of going for a monthly sub instead of a Lifetime Sub and that this is now leading you to begrudge the continued operation of Tivo at all even as a second PVR in the household. On the other hand if so many of you hadn't still been paying monthly up to now then perhaps Tivo wouldn't have been able to afford to continue running the Tivo UK service for so long up to this point.
> 
> On the maths issue I personally have an unsubbed Sky box and a Freeview box dual source setup feeding my Tivo and so the cost of going to Sky HD for me would be exactly as I describe. And what precisely is it that makes both you and many others here feel that having an expensive Sky sub is apparently absolutely essential when you also have a Tivo that lets you watch the best of unsubbed Tv, much of which is a great deal better than the multi channel satellite tv offerings? Are you perhaps an avid Premiership or test cricket fan then?
> 
> ...


Pete77 - I have read both of your posts and to be honest I would rather you stopped making contributions to this thread. You already answered my original post but imo since then you've mostly taken to presenting comments (valid though some of them may be) in a way that I considered patronising and rude. I appreciate your attempts to help and thank you for the time you have taken to make your comments.


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

ndunlavey said:


> This is a part of this recurring discussion that I never understand. My TiVo has degenerated - it still does everything it did for me when I got it 6 (?) years ago. Just because there are other toys out there to play with doesn't make my TiVo any worse.
> 
> Now, as it happens, I probably will be shutting down my own TiVo in the next few months, but that's because I can't be arsed with broadcast TV any more, not because TiVo no longer does its stuff.


*Firstly Happy New Year all!!* :up: I hope it's a good one for you all. 

My _problem_ (and _problem_ is way too harsh a term for the issue I have) with TiVo is that I can get what it does that I regard as important from other devices and I can get additional things too. _Out of the box _ other packages were able to offer more functionality.

I fully accept that TiVo is superior in many ways and if you're prepared to undertake self maintenance and mods it can be enhanced but for simple out of the box plug and play it has fallen behind.

If there was even the choice of having the newer TiVo devices I would have stayed with it.

However as I mentioned above in a previous thread, at the moment I'll probably keep it for a couple more months...as a basic backup

Have to say my impression reading threads in this forum and elsewhere is that TiVo as the main recorder for a Freeview system seems to be the best way to use TiVo now. Whilst if you have satellite or (eventually) cable PVRs TiVo tends to be the backup recorder or the spare room box.

You mentioned that you've given up on broadcast TV, I'm curious does that mean you don't watch TV any more or that you don't use the subscription channels...?

btw some of you might want to take advantage of www.alluc.org if you haven't already. 
I'm not affiliated with or related to anyone on that site just passing on something that I found interesting and useful.


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

cyril said:


> Well they have been in Japan for a while, and launched in Taiwan... if only they relaunched a series 3 here


Oh I truly wish they would...or at least partner up with one or more of the PVR players out here. If they could have worked with the Freeview Consortium or the now single UK cable company...oh but how sweet would that have been...?


----------



## b166er (Oct 24, 2003)

HyperionX said:


> You mentioned that you've given up on broadcast TV, I'm curious does that mean you don't watch TV any more or that you don't use the subscription channels...?


Perhaps he's referring to the availability of almost every program these days via P2P and direct from the broadcaster from their web pages, and clips from youtube from the broadcaster. The only reason I'm hanging on to my Sky/TiVo combination right now is that I'm not paying for either (freesat/lifetime) but I record/watch only UK shows on there, and only the lesser known ones that aren't on P2P the next day. Even the ones that don't make it to P2P I could get if I went nova.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> It is clearly a little unfortunate that some of you originally made the mistake of going for a monthly sub instead of a Lifetime Sub and that this is now leading you to begrudge the continued operation of Tivo at all even as a second PVR in the household. On the other hand if so many of you hadn't still been paying monthly up to now then perhaps Tivo wouldn't have been able to afford to continue running the Tivo UK service for so long up to this point.


TiVo amortise lifteime subs revenue over four years, so it's only now that that the liftimes are dropping off the balance sheet.



> And what precisely is it that makes both you and many others here feel that having an expensive Sky sub is apparently absolutely essential when you also have a Tivo that lets you watch the best of unsubbed Tv, much of which is a great deal better than the multi channel satellite tv offerings? Are you perhaps an avid Premiership or test cricket fan then?


Er, the extra channels provide more choice...



> On the second tuner and recording clash issue even this can be catered for with a Tivo S1 and networking them both together and then using Sanderton's conflict resolve module to schedule the clashing recording on the second Tivo box.


I wrote that software and even I don't think it's a good solution!



> I agree that Tivo can't do HD recording but then realistically there aren't that many programs in HD at present and I very much doubt if most people notice the difference between an SD or an HD recording on a decent Plasma or LCD tv once they are wrapped up in following the program content. The difference between SD and HD tv is most definitely not as dramatic or significant as between black and white vs colour telly or even a wide screen tv versus a standard 4:3 television. It is of course undoubtedly the latest new thing but arguably more of a good marketing way to sell new tvs than a really essential must have that changes the whole way you watch television like a Tivo did.


You clearly don't have HD, Pete. It makes a huge difference. Whether you think there are may programmes in HD depends on you personally programming tastes. If you're a sopap watcher, then no. If you like sports, movies, nature documentaries, US orginated drama/sci-fi or the latest BBC stuff then there's loads!


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

b166er said:


> Perhaps he's referring to the availability of almost every program these days via P2P and direct from the broadcaster from their web pages, and clips from youtube from the broadcaster. The only reason I'm hanging on to my Sky/TiVo combination right now is that I'm not paying for either (freesat/lifetime) but I record/watch only UK shows on there, and only the lesser known ones that aren't on P2P the next day. Even the ones that don't make it to P2P I could get if I went nova.


Hi b166er...you might well be right. The alluc.org link was a revelation to me after a friend introduced me to it. I've seen and used a few P2P services myself.

I was/am genuinely curious about the alternatives that the poster was going to use. For me I'm interested in the quality of the picture, etc when I watch as well as the content so sometimes using P2P material is not enough.

Having said that I caught up with almost all the Robot Chicken episodes (after TiVo failed to record consistently) using alluc.org.

Thanks for you comments though :up:


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I take it I'm the only one concerned with the open discussion of illegal activities, and if so, why? I assume no-one else is concerned that they are, in effect, stealing?


----------



## Anndra (Oct 12, 2004)

ndunlavey said:


> This is a part of this recurring discussion that I never understand. My TiVo has degenerated - it still does everything it did for me when I got it 6 (?) years ago. Just because there are other toys out there to play with doesn't make my TiVo any worse.


On the other hand, six years ago my TiVo did everything I could imagine, that is no longer the case.


----------



## b166er (Oct 24, 2003)

cwaring said:


> I take it I'm the only one concerned with the open discussion of illegal activities, and if so, why? I assume no-one else is concerned that they are, in effect, stealing?


It's kind of like Napster was back in 1999/2000. Even TV presenters openly revealed they were downloading MP3s. At that time the law was unclear. Kind of the same situation now with TV shows. Nobody has ever been charged (and therefore not prosecuted) for watching a downloaded TV show. Distributing and/or selling is a different matter. TV stations and shows are now welcoming the new distribution channel. The BBC are partnering with one of the bittorrent sites/tools to air their shows over it. The american networks, and some of the UK ones are starting to offer their shows free over the net. Things are rapidly changing. I go back to my point again though "Nobody has ever been charged (and therefore not prosecuted) for watching a downloaded TV show".


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> I take it I'm the only one concerned with the open discussion of illegal activities, and if so, why? I assume no-one else is concerned that they are, in effect, stealing?


Carl, if memory serves you have on this board asked for DVD copies of a show you missed and offered to send DVD copies of a show to others. How is that any different?

I have my own twisted morailty on this.

I won't download illegal music, full stop, as I can always buy or pay to download it.

I won't download a film unless I have already bought it on DVD and so made a payment to the creators.

I won't download a TV show unless I have a subscription to the channel which will eventually show it.

My conscience is therfore clear, although I'm sure a lawyer would disagree.


----------



## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> I won't download a TV show unless I have a subscription to the channel which will eventually show it.


I guess the key word there is 'eventually' 

Virtually everything, including movies, will be on terrestrial TV at some point if you're prepared to wait long enough, so by your reasoning you might as well just download everything now and be done with it. What you're paying for when you buy the DVD or subscribe to a premium channel is not the right to see the content, but the opportunity to see it before others who haven't paid.


----------



## b166er (Oct 24, 2003)

TCM2007 said:


> I have my own twisted morailty on this.


Almost exactly the same twisted morality for me. No music or films at all, ever. Last mp3 I downloaded was in about 2000 from Napster when it was common practice. I've hardly got any of those original downloads left either, they were such bad quality I replaced them from itunes. For music I have itunes US and itunes UK accounts. For films I download-to-rent from amazon.com or buy the DVD. TV shows though, if they're free to air (i.e. not from premium channels) then I don't feel I'm depriving anyone of revenue because it's only my physical location that's stopping me seeing it for free. I'm sure anyone can come up with an argument (and blindlemon already did) how it's got holes in it, but I feel ok with it. We all have our own level of risk/law-breaking that we consider OK. For me it's downloading TV shows, "accidentally" not keeping to the speed limit at all times, and having a Sky installation where I'm not meant to. I justify them (in the same order) by only downloading free shows, not speeding in town, and paying my UK license fee.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> I guess the key word there is 'eventually'
> 
> Virtually everything, including movies, will be on terrestrial TV at some point if you're prepared to wait long enough, so by your reasoning you might as well just download everything now and be done with it. What you're paying for when you buy the DVD or subscribe to a premium channel is not the right to see the content, but the opportunity to see it before others who haven't paid.


Maybe, but quite a lot of Sky stuff never gets to terrestrial, unless they bung it on Sky Three.

But its not a semantic dodge, I do have a full Sky sub.

I said it was twisted!


----------



## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Not wishing to appear holier-than-thou here I should point out that I

a) do copy CDs I've bought to as many PCs and devices as I need for my own or my immediate family's use
b) do occasionally find a copy a movie from my TiVo archived to DVD
c) don't download illegal music or movies
d) don't keep copies of CDs I get given unless they're by an artist whose bank balance has at least 3 more zeros than mine 

That's _my_ twisted morality.


----------



## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

cwaring said:


> I take it I'm the only one concerned with the open discussion of illegal activities, and if so, why? I assume no-one else is concerned that they are, in effect, stealing?


Hi cwaring

I don't advocate illegal activity I would ask you to take into account the following;

1. not all P2P (or P2P like services) is/are illegal.
2. My first port of call for my programs is through the channels I pay for. Next is to watch at friends on the channels they pay for. After that DVDs that I pay for.
3. I only download programs if they are free (the producers have made them available) or I think it worth the extra charge. And of course the quality of the pictures needs to be good.

As for _stealing_...well that way beyond the original point of this post...I'm happy to have the discussion I don't think it's as clear as either side would like but perhaps that a discussion for another thread...?


----------



## mark4 (Jan 9, 2004)

as i understand it direct tv (us) and sky (uk) are under the same ownership, this being the case i would expect that the two recievers should be technically compatable, he most certanly wont get off his fat ass and redisgn something he already has. the only difference is when it comes to the pvr side of things, i dont think in the us they would tolereate his charge upo to the hilt attitude and would just dump him in favour of another company, unlike us in the uk who acctually have no real alternative (big thanks to the monopolies commision) nor whould they put up with some crappy ui when they all like tivo.

this being the case has anyone tried or heard of anyone using the direct-tv tivo in the uk

this is exactly what everyone in the uk wants, a twin tuner satalite reciever most importantly with TIVO, whoopee when can i have one

understandably sky would rather you never heard about this, lets face it they have a good thing going here and dont want to spoil it, wouldnt be supprised if sky didnt have something to do with tivos decision to leave the uk, big fat backhanders etc

if tivo marketed a similar system to the sky+ box im sure people would take it up in droves, please tell me i dont have to have a sky+ box to get what i want.

ps dont want to sound greedy or anything but it would be great if it had a dvd/rw in it too


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mark4 said:


> ps dont want to sound greedy or anything but it would be great if it had a dvd/rw in it too


Surely you mean a Blue Ray and/or HD DVD drive?


----------



## mark4 (Jan 9, 2004)

seriosly, id settle for just the twin tuner satalite reciever with tivo, the dvd would just be iceing on top, just slipping into fantasy for a mo my ideal piece of equipment would be as follows

one box around the same size as my tivo series 1
quad satalite reciecvers
big hdd
dvd/rw
TIVO (as its linux based)
usual stuff on newer tivos, usb ports, network, etc
a software hack witch allows me to play my old ps1 games on it (sounds easy to me, dont think sony would like it much though)
a software hack that allows me to use it to surf net, send emails etc

i know you can build a computer to do all this but you still cant do the satalite recievr bit in a pc, nor the tivo software either


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

mark4 said:


> wouldnt be supprised if sky didnt have something to do with tivos decision to leave the uk, big fat backhanders etc


 Tivo actually gave sky the money to market Tivo in the UK (they still have the contract AFAIK)
Sky just did a "bad" job of it and by "coincidence" brought out a competing product (sky+) shortly afterwards.....


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Carl, if memory serves you have on this board asked for DVD copies of a show you missed and offered to send DVD copies of a show to others. How is that any different?


I take your point. However, I assume that the person responding to my requests has the channel available; eg Sky One. Conversely, I only respond to requests that are on channels I have.

I meant to add that this sort of thing only happens occasionally whereas the OP is talking about _regularly[/] downloading entire series, which is completely different; imo.

(Sorry for the delayed edit. Only have BB access at my parents place right now. Hoping to get NTL in shortly.)_


----------



## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Sky just did a "bad" job of it and by "coincidence" brought out a competing product (sky+) shortly afterwards.....


...and shortly after that, Sky+ boxes were being manufactured by Thomson who had recently passed on the opportunity to renew their contract to make TiVo boxes....


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

mark4 said:


> as i understand it direct tv (us) and sky (uk) are under the same ownership, this being the case i would expect that the two recievers should be technically compatable, he most certanly wont get off his fat ass and redisgn something he already has. the only difference is when it comes to the pvr side of things, i dont think in the us they would tolereate his charge upo to the hilt attitude and would just dump him in favour of another company, unlike us in the uk who acctually have no real alternative (big thanks to the monopolies commision) nor whould they put up with some crappy ui when they all like tivo.
> 
> this being the case has anyone tried or heard of anyone using the direct-tv tivo in the uk
> 
> ...


The underlying software (NDS's X-TV) is the same but there are so many other differences it couldn't possibly work.

Uncle Rupert has now sold DirectTV incidentally. And without wanting in any way to stnad up for him, DirecTV's top package in the US is $99.99 a month, comparable to Sky's £43.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

mark4 said:


> seriosly, id settle for just the twin tuner satalite reciever with tivo, the dvd would just be iceing on top, just slipping into fantasy for a mo my ideal piece of equipment would be as follows
> 
> one box around the same size as my tivo series 1
> quad satalite reciecvers
> ...


You can do the satellite receiver bit, but it's a bit of a risk as the DragonCAM thingy isn't supported and could be accidentally or deliberately rendred inpoerable at any time.


----------



## mark4 (Jan 9, 2004)

whats dragoncam ??


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mark4 said:


> whats dragoncam ??


A Conditional Access Module that lets you run your Sky card and decrypt encrypted Sky satellite channels in a sky satellite box not manufactured under an agreement with Sky (eg Echostar, Fortec and other non Sky Digibox satellite boxes) or in a Windows Media Centre Edition PC.

However to remain authorised the Sky card has to be put back in a Sky Digibox overnight at least once a month and also the DragonCam might stop working altogether at any time if Sky completely changed their current channel encryption method.


----------

