# Are the premier's performance problems fixed yet?



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Last time I was lurking here there were all these threads about performance issues with the Premiere (only running on one core, HD interface sluggish, etc). Can anyone confirm if these issues have been fixed yet?

If not, am I correct in understanding that the Premier can run the old SD interface? If so, does it run faster/better than my sluggish S3/HD?

I've been holding off choosing what brand of DVR to buy until I see whether these issues are resolved or not. I want something that works better than my THD which I've always felt had a disappointingly sluggish interface (funny thing is that my Philips S1 was the one that always felt the snappiest, and it's been downhill since)

Scott


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

smbaker said:


> Last time I was lurking here there were all these threads about performance issues with the Premiere (only running on one core, HD interface sluggish, etc). Can anyone confirm if these issues have been fixed yet?


They have not been fixed- improved, but not "fixed". It is still one core, the HD interface is still sluggish and incomplete.



> I correct in understanding that the Premier can run the old SD interface? If so, does it run faster/better than my sluggish S3/HD?


Yes and Yes


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## jterwelp (Apr 27, 2004)

smbaker said:


> I want something that works better than my THD which I've always felt had a disappointingly sluggish interface (funny thing is that my Philips S1 was the one that always felt the snappiest, and it's been downhill since)


I recently bought a Premiere to replace an aging S2DT. I am running both units side-by-side because TiVo gave me two months of free service on the S2DT as part of the upgrade. I had been using the S2DT for a few years and thought the interface speed was fine. After using the Premiere with the SD interface, the S2DT feels unbearably slow.

The Premiere with the SD interface is very fast: instant response, every time. If you're willing to forego the frills of the Premiere's HD interface, I can't imagine you'll have any complaints with the speed of the SD interface. I also had a Philips S1 and a single-tuner S2; the Premiere in SD mode is the fastest of all of the models I've owned.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

smbaker said:


> only running on one core


The operating system has to support the two cores and the software needs to be written to take advantage of multiple threads. Can Flash take advantage of multiple cores? The non-flash code should benefit from activating multiple cores but the HD menus may not see any improvement unless both flash and the flash code support multiple threads.

Restructuring code to take advantage of multiple cores usually results in faster code as the programmer revisits and improves the code. Turning on the multiple cores will be another beta experience as new multi-threaded code can introduce new problems.

The 14c code stopped the freeze for me and plugging the Tivo into the wall outlet directly solved the reboot problem for the last week. I would make your decision on what Tivo Premiere/XL is now as I don't think anyone has a clear time frame on HD menu performance enhancements.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

chicagobrownblue said:


> The 14c code stopped the freeze for me and plugging the Tivo into the wall outlet directly solved the reboot problem for the last week. I would make your decision on what Tivo Premiere/XL is now as I don't think anyone has a clear time frame on HD menu performance enhancements.


It sounds like it would be an upgrade from what I have now assuming I keep it in SD mode. At least from the experiences presented here it sounds like it should reverse the trend I've witnessed since my S1 of each generation of box being more sluggish than the previous. On the other hand, it makes me wonder why I should bother upgrading if the only thing I'm getting is a snappier interface. Might as well wait a few more months and see how it plays out.

Can anyone tell me if there is a time-limit on the current upgrade opportunities? Specifically, the $200 discount on lifetime service when transferred from an existing lifetime Tivo? If that was to expire anytime soon, I suppose it would prompt me to speed up my decision-making.

This whole thing feels a bit anti-climactic. I wish Tivo had the product working in it's final state before release. Last-minute glitches are one thing, but this seems more an issue of major changes being necessary. They better hope these changes can be confined to software alone.


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## ldobson (Jan 18, 2004)

chicagobrownblue said:


> The operating system has to support the two cores and the software needs to be written to take advantage of multiple threads. Can Flash take advantage of multiple cores? The non-flash code should benefit from activating multiple cores but the HD menus may not see any improvement unless both flash and the flash code support multiple threads.
> 
> Restructuring code to take advantage of multiple cores usually results in faster code as the programmer revisits and improves the code. Turning on the multiple cores will be another beta experience as new multi-threaded code can introduce new problems.
> 
> The 14c code stopped the freeze for me and plugging the Tivo into the wall outlet directly solved the reboot problem for the last week. I would make your decision on what Tivo Premiere/XL is now as I don't think anyone has a clear time frame on HD menu performance enhancements.


Well my guess is the software was already written to take advantage of multiple cores, so all that is needed is to enable the second core via firmware, assuming they have resolved the "stablity" issues they were having with it. They can probably assign certain processes to specific cores which could increase performance, right now core 1 is doing everything.


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## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

chicagobrownblue said:


> ......... and plugging the Tivo into the wall outlet directly solved the reboot problem for the last week.....


What did you have it plugged into before? Just asking because all my electronics are on UPS.


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## cranbers (Apr 2, 2010)

With 14.1c personny I think the tivo HD interface is faster or the same as premiere. And I had one freeze that I witnessed. And multiple HD interface freezes where the Interface became unresponsive. I wonder what the next update will bring hopefully it will make it 1.0 rtm worthy. Aka ready for customer consumption and shouldn't need a waver stating this thing may make u go nuts.


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## jterwelp (Apr 27, 2004)

smbaker said:


> Can anyone tell me if there is a time-limit on the current upgrade opportunities? Specifically, the $200 discount on lifetime service when transferred from an existing lifetime Tivo?


When you use the Premiere upgrade program with an existing lifetime box, the service is NOT transferred: you end up with lifetime on both boxes. The service is only trasferred if the box being upgraded is not lifetime. The various upgrade scenarios are documented here: https://www3.tivo.com/buytivo/popups/upgrade/popup_upgradedvrfaq.html

As far as when the upgrade program expires, your best bet is to contact TiVo directly. That question could probably be handled via chat or email if you don't care to sit on the phone.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

smbaker said:


> Can anyone tell me if there is a time-limit on the current upgrade opportunities? .


I was wondering the exact same thing.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

jterwelp said:


> The various upgrade scenarios are documented here: https://www3.tivo.com/buytivo/popups/upgrade/popup_upgradedvrfaq.html.


I think that is a bad URL or something. When I go there, I get a page full of freaky characters... no html to be seen..


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## Killerz298 (Feb 9, 2004)

I too am wondering when it expires as I was thinking of buying a new box for my new HDTV. Please post the answer when you get it.


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## jterwelp (Apr 27, 2004)

crxssi said:


> I think that is a bad URL or something. When I go there, I get a page full of freaky characters... no html to be seen..


Strange. The link worked when I posted it but when I clicked it within this thread, I saw the same strange characters you described. Then, once I logged into TiVo.com, it started working again. It may work for you if you sign in. I'll also include the relevant information below.



> *If I have Product Lifetime service on my original TiVo box can I participate in the TiVo Premiere Upgrade Program?*
> Yes, if you have Product Lifetime service (PLS) on your original TiVo box you are eligible for the TiVo Premiere Upgrade Program.
> Since PLS is not being transferred from your original TiVo box it will remain active and you can continue to enjoy it on another TV.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

ltxi said:


> What did you have it plugged into before? Just asking because all my electronics are on UPS.


It was plugged into a surge suprressor.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

chicagobrownblue said:


> It was plugged into a surge suprressor.


There must have been something wrong with it.

Although you really should get a UPS. A UPS should be a requirement for any DVR.

I plug all my electronic devices into a UPS.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> There must have been something wrong with it.
> 
> Although you really should get a UPS. A UPS should be a requirement for any DVR.
> 
> I plug all my electronic devices into a UPS.


I wish I had a UPS, but only have a Surge Protector. I have never really had any problems with my surge protector causing reboots, but on windy days up here often you will get a power flicker that is enough to reboot everything.

That being said, how long are most UPS good for? We sent to lose power a lot when we get storms or windy days. And when the power goes out, it goes out for 12 to 24 hours here. Last week we had two power outages. One lasted for 24 hours, the other about 16 hours.

I would imagine a UPS would not last this long, ad we normally end up unplugging everything anyways until the power comes back on or if we are expecting bad storms. So, I don't know if one would be a real advantage for me.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

LoREvanescence said:


> I wish I had a UPS, but only have a Surge Protector. I have never really had any problems with my surge protector causing reboots, but on windy days up here often you will get a power flicker that is enough to reboot everything.
> 
> That being said, how long are most UPS good for? We sent to lose power a lot when we get storms or windy days. And when the power goes out, it goes out for 12 to 24 hours here. Last week we had two power outages. One lasted for 24 hours, the other about 16 hours.
> 
> I would imagine a UPS would not last this long, ad we normally end up unplugging everything anyways until the power comes back on or if we are expecting bad storms. So, I don't know if one would be a real advantage for me.


It would be very advantageous. At the very least it will prevent the box from powering off/on several times in a few seconds which can wreak havoc on an electrical device. You can get a wide range of UPSs. the Premiere only draws 25 watts so even a lower wattage one will proabably last an hour.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

LoREvanescence said:


> I wish I had a UPS, but only have a Surge Protector.


Stop wishing and go buy one. Nobody is stopping you! They are not that expensive. Just make sure that the unit you select can carry the wattage load.



> That being said, how long are most UPS good for?


That depends on the battery size and the load you are placing on it. It also depends on the condition of the batteries and efficiency of the unit. There is no "typical" runtime. There are a huge variety of models to choose from.

That said, mine is an APC Back-UPS Pro 1100. It is connected to my 52" TV, TiVoHD, amplifier, computer, monitor, printer, cable modem, router, phone, Wii, and other equipment. It can keep up all my "stuff" for about 10 to 30 minutes, depending on what is actually "on" at the time (computer, TiVo, and network stuff are up 24x7).



> We sent to lose power a lot when we get storms or windy days. And when the power goes out, it goes out for 12 to 24 hours here. Last week we had two power outages. One lasted for 24 hours, the other about 16 hours. I would imagine a UPS would not last this long, ad we normally end up unplugging everything anyways until the power comes back on or if we are expecting bad storms. So, I don't know if one would be a real advantage for me.


Having a UPS is *always* an advantage. There are TONS of *small* power problems that it will absorb and avert. Momentary drops, spikes, dips will all be addressed by even the cheapest UPS models. And for longer outages, it gives you a chance to shut down properly, or switch to a generator (if you have one).

I will never understand people who spend thousands of dollars for expensive gear and then not spend a few hundred to finish/protect it properly with a UPS.


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## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

chicagobrownblue said:


> It was plugged into a surge suprressor.


A good surge suppressor shouldn't have caused any problem. A really cheap one possibly could have.


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## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

crxssi said:


> .................Having a UPS is *always* an advantage. There are TONS of *small* power problems that it will absorb and avert. Momentary drops, spikes, dips will all be addressed by even the cheapest UPS models. And for longer outages, it gives you a chance to shut down properly, or switch to a generator (if you have one).
> 
> I will never understand people who spend thousands of dollars for expensive gear and then not spend a few hundred to finish/protect it properly with a UPS.


Well said, and despite being an ex-techie that should have known better I learned that lesson, personally, the hard way. I now use multiple APC ES 500/550 series UPS scattered all over the house to handle low power electronics.....good for several minutes to maybe half an hour of run time depending on how I have them loaded. We don't have long power outage issues here so don't need more than that and the biggest deal is really avoiding all the spikes and garbage fluctuations that come with the momentaries. $40 to $50 each on sale at Staples/Office Depot/wherever and batteries good for at least five years. The higher power drain stuff, including my audio amps, printers, and garage door opener (lightning got the last one in '97) are all on surge suppressors.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

crxssi said:


> I think that is a bad URL or something. When I go there, I get a page full of freaky characters... no html to be seen..


Try this:
https://www.tivo.com/buytivo/popups/upgrade/popup_upgradedvrfaq.html

If it doesn't work, right click, copy the link, then past it in the address bar and remove the tivocommunity referral information at the beginning.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> There must have been something wrong with it.
> 
> Although you really should get a UPS. A UPS should be a requirement for any DVR.
> 
> I plug all my electronic devices into a UPS.


My S2 Tivo was plugged into the same surge suppressor for 3+ years with no problems. If a UPS is a requirement for the Tivo Premiere, it should be sold with a UPS. I have joined the Tivo Premiere is not ready for prime time club.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

chicagobrownblue said:


> My S2 TiVo was plugged into the same surge suppressor for 3+ years with no problems. If a UPS is a requirement for the TiVo Premiere, it should be sold with a UPS. I have joined the TiVo Premiere is not ready for prime time club.


I mean it should be required for any DVR. To always get uninterrupted recordings, when there is a power outage, any DVR needs to be connected to a UPS. I did it with DirecTV, Comcast and FiOS. So I never had any issues when the power was out. My TiVos/DVRs would always continue recording during a power outage or power glitch.
Of course it helped in my situation that the Comcast signal also never went dark during a power outage. And with FiOS and when I had DirecTV, the equipment to receive those services is/was always on a UPS too.

ANd Prior to me using TiVos in 2001 I had my VCRs on a UPS starting in the mid 90's. All to make sure I would always have recordings of my shows.
Of course now in 2010, there are so many ways to get the shows, that if you do miss an episode, there is usually an alternative way to get it.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

crxssi said:


> I will never understand people who spend thousands of dollars for expensive gear and then not spend a few hundred to finish/protect it properly with a UPS.


I've had far more problems caused by UPS than I've ever had solved by one, and these were expensive APC rackmount professional grade units. Problems included:

* Short battery life / failed batteries / annoying beeping noises

* Expense at recurring battery replacement costs

* UPS engaging whenever nearby laser printer warmed up (not plugged into the UPS; merely nearby on the same branch circuit)

* UPS engaging (usually due to the nearby laser printer) and causing computer reboot due to failed UPS batteries and UPS reset.

* Computer room filled with acrid fumes from extremely hot warped batteries. Fortunately I threw the malfunctioning UPS out the back door into the rainy oregon winter before it could start the house on fire. Three hours later when I tore it down to dispose of the warped batteries they were still hot to the touch.

* Additional energy costs by running yet another power-consuming device in your house that serves little purpose.

In the past 10 years I can only reliably count about a half dozen instances of power outages while I was using the computer. I had more reboots due to faulty batteries and other UPS issues than that. This includes time spent both in arizona which is world-known for it's fantastic lightning storms during monsoon season, and oregon where wind and rain wreak havoc on the powerlines. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Sure, if you are in an area that is frequented by power outages than a UPS may be a necessity, but to say that everyone should protect their equipment with a UPS is going too far. Why waste money and energy unless a credible problem exists? I'd rather spend the money on a good professional-grade surge suppressor (like a tripplite ultra series) than on a UPS. Alternatively a RAID array or even an offline backup drive may be a wiser investment of money.

Last fall, I took every one of the damn things down to the recycler at the local junk yard. I now live in a nice UPS-free house with no acrid sulfuric acid odors, no smoldering batteries, no annoying beeping, and less overall energy consumption. (oh and turning on the laser printer no longer makes it sound like world war III has just started)


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## ski9600 (Mar 17, 2005)

The only issue I'm having is that the sound gets corrupted (off speed from the video I guess) after watching a program for a while. This was happening on my CATV with a Motorola DVR as well so it may be only on my CATV system. 

Is anyone else experiencing this?


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

smbaker said:


> I've had far more problems caused by UPS than I've ever had solved by one, and these were expensive APC rackmount professional grade units.


Yikes- you must a combination of really bad power, a crappy UPS model, and bad luck. I assert that your experiences (as you describe them) are probably not typical. And I will illustrate...



> * Short battery life / failed batteries / annoying beeping noises


Mine (at home, a NON professional APC) lasts 4 to 5 years between battery changes. Never had a failed battery (otherwise). Does a self diagnostic weekly or monthly or something to tell me IF it will fail, proactively. Doesn't beep unless on battery for more than a few seconds, which is rare. Has a setting to turn off beeps if I want to, anyway.



> * Expense at recurring battery replacement costs


I bought my batteries from a local place. Wasn't all that expensive... about 1/4 the cost of the UPS (which is about normal). No more expensive than the battery in my car, motorcycle, or scooter.



> * UPS engaging whenever nearby laser printer warmed up (not plugged into the UPS; merely nearby on the same branch circuit)


Then your main supply is whacked. The pull of a single laser printer should not cause a significant dip in the voltage of other circuits.



> * UPS engaging (usually due to the nearby laser printer) and causing computer reboot due to failed UPS batteries and UPS reset.


? Sounds like your mains is the cause of many of your problems, not the UPS. And/or a laser printer with a faulty heating element that is pulling out-of-spec amounts of amps.



> * Computer room filled with acrid fumes from extremely hot warped batteries.


 Have never seen or experienced that, and I am exposed to hundreds of UPS's across a 22 year time span.



> * Additional energy costs by running yet another power-consuming device


Can't argue that, it will use some power. Not a lot, though.



> in your house that serves little purpose.


Little purpose?? Duh. It keeps my equipment up all the time. In the FIVE YEARS of my last battery set, I had continuous power 100% of the time. It averted many dozens of resets and crashes on my equipment. It prevented document loss. It prevented recording failure and/or gaps. It kept my phone and Internet up. It also protected my equipment as power conditioner and surge suppressor. Those are not "little purposes", at least, not by my definition.



> In the past 10 years I can only reliably count about a half dozen instances of power outages while I was using the computer.


In 10 years, here, I can count probably 100+.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

smbaker said:


> * Short battery life / failed batteries / annoying beeping noises
> 
> *


you should be able to turn off the audio. that is a prerequisite for any UPS I get. All my APC UPS units can have the audio turned off, so there are never any beeping noises. all my current UPS batteries are still going strong, with the oldest at 6 years and the youngest at 2 years. I have eleven APC 1500XL units with the extended runtime batteries.
I'll probably need to replace the old six year units soon. I only get about 8 or 9 hours of runtime from it now instead of the 16 to 18 hours i used to get with the same load. But since it's rare for me to get a power outage lasting over 30 minutes, I guess I shouldn't be in any big rush to replace it.

Worst case i guess i can swap it with another UPs that has something like my subwoofer, receiver, or DLP set on it. since I will turn those components off if the power goes out for more than a few minutes.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

crxssi said:


> Then your main supply is whacked. The pull of a single laser printer should not cause a significant dip in the voltage of other circuits.


Not 'other' circuits, same branch circuit. Two different Laser printers (both Brothers) and they'd both do it. Laser printers have rather significant heating elements in them. The UPS was designed with a brownout protection circuit in it, detects the drop in voltage and switches on. By the time it's switched on, the initial surge from the heating element has stabilized and the UPS immediately switches back off. Probably caused more disruption trying to fix the supposed brownout than the brownout itself would have caused. I tried tweaking the brownout detection settings, but I don't think I could convince the belligerent contraption to stop doing it.

Remove the UPS, the computer still works fine. Laser printer power draw is the same as it's always been. The UPS was providing a solution for a problem that did not exist.



crxssi said:


> In 10 years, here, I can count probably 100+.


Well then it's probably useful for you if you have that many outages.

My point is that it's not useful for everyone. The advice that's being handed out by some ('every DVR should have a UPS') is overkill. It's just television programming. Unless you have a verified issue where you're experiencing lots of outages, why bother with the added expense, complexity, and power consumption? Worst case you miss a television program.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> I have eleven APC 1500XL units with the extended runtime batteries.


These were APC 2200 rackmount units (and a 1200 rackmount on the bedroom PC). I went through a period where I really liked rackmount equipment. They were heavy. Built like a tank. Big transformer inside. Even had ethernet interfaces with little web servers lurking within so I could check in with my UPS and see how it was doing. The best I could ever get batteries to last was about 2 years. Didn't matter if it was APC batteries, aftermarket batteries, expensive batteries, or cheap batteries. Maybe I just had extraordinarily bad luck.



> Worst case i guess i can swap it with another UPs that has something like my subwoofer, receiver, or DLP set on it. since I will turn those components off if the power goes out for more than a few minutes.


Subwoofer ... receiver ... DLP ... ? Do you reallllllly need a UPS on all those devices?


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## tkdpal (Jun 14, 2005)

chicagobrownblue said:


> My S2 Tivo was plugged into the same surge suppressor for 3+ years with no problems. If a UPS is a requirement for the Tivo Premiere, it should be sold with a UPS. I have joined the Tivo Premiere is not ready for prime time club.


This might be one of the funniest...and saddest things I have ever read on here.


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## cranbers (Apr 2, 2010)

I personally use ups on all my computers and audio/video equipment. 40 - 100 bucks. The tivo premiere takes 6 minutes to boot back up, thats a long time to be down if your watching a show. 

If you have a desktop, and the power blinks on you and your in the middle of something important, it kind of bums you out.

I personally think they are worth it for the price. Clean power with no brown outs/power sags/surges. 

I've seen lighting strikes destroy everything in a persons house, I remember a printer was fried, I looked inside the power supply on it, and you could actually see where the lighting arched and left a black spot on the case.

That kind of stuff is no joke, power surge protectors (really good ones) aren't that much less expense then a ups. So the benefit is clear.

They also have other benefits, like when the power is out you still have internet if your router and modem are plugged into it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

smbaker said:


> These were APC 2200 rackmount units (and a 1200 rackmount on the bedroom PC). I went through a period where I really liked rackmount equipment. They were heavy. Built like a tank. Big transformer inside. Even had ethernet interfaces with little web servers lurking within so I could check in with my UPS and see how it was doing. The best I could ever get batteries to last was about 2 years. Didn't matter if it was APC batteries, aftermarket batteries, expensive batteries, or cheap batteries. Maybe I just had extraordinarily bad luck.
> 
> Subwoofer ... receiver ... DLP ... ? Do you reallllllly need a UPS on all those devices?


Yes. All my electronics are on a UPS. Every piece. We get too many voltage spikes and brownouts here for me to risk any problems. I've never had any issues with the equipment since putting everything on UPSs. I have had lamps got out from the surges/brownouts so I won't risk any equipment.

Without a UPS, you could have the device turn on and off sevral times in just 10 seconds(which is what has killed a couple of my lamps). That can wreak havoc on electronic devices.

I put everything on a UPS. whether it's one of my PCs, my alarm clocks, cordess phones, TVs, receivers, etc. And of course all my network gear since I have over seventy devices relying on internet access so I need to make sure my FiOS connection stays up(plus my alarm system connects through the internet) If I could have a whole house generator/backup I would have one but I'm in a condo and the Association won't allow me to install one since the generator is outside.


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## Terri (Dec 1, 2004)

Mine rebooted twice on Saturday... and it is plugged into a ups


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

smbaker said:


> Not 'other' circuits, same branch circuit. Two different Laser printers (both Brothers) and they'd both do it.


Oh, well that could be expected on the SAME circuit. Yet, we have 30+ laser printers at work, and UPS's all over the place, many on the same circuit as a UPS, and none ever trip. I still suspect your mains is not keeping up with your power demand, and/or you have old wiring which is shooting up resistance when it sees the high amp draw, thus lowering the voltage too much.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

crxssi said:


> I still suspect your mains is not keeping up with your power demand, and/or you have old wiring which is shooting up resistance when it sees the high amp draw, thus lowering the voltage too much.


Wiring was 1 year old (new house) when the laser printer and the infernal UPS was installed.

I have a TED energy monitor that would tell me mains voltage at the main panel, and I suppose I could attach a voltmeter to branch circuit to get an idea of voltage at the laser printer, then turn on the printer and get an experimental result.... if I really wanted to take the time to do so.

Of course to actually see the spike when the heating element turned on, I'd really need a data logger or digital oscilloscope. This is starting to sound like a lot more work than it's worth.

Interestingly, a quick google for 'laser printer brownout' revealed this: http://www.epinions.com/reviews/pr-Brother_HL-5140_Laser_Printer. From the third review down: 'causes a small brownout when in use'. I'm pretty sure this happens to be the same model printer that I was using at the time.

Another link I found while googling laser printer brownouts. Curiously, also related to brother laser printers. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080113074613AAcVDAT

EDIT: Oh, and then there's this from yet another link:



somewebpage said:


> Yeah, the Brother lasers do tend to have a solid surge when the fuser first starts to warm up. Some other makes include a current limiter and/or thermistor in the fuser unit heater to keep the inrush current from being quite so bad, but those do slow down the heating up to operating temperature. I used to have access to a circuit monitor with more sensitivity than the Kill-A-Watt meters. The wake up current draw on my Brother HL1670N could exceed 9 A, but it lasted for only about 50-100 ms before dropping back to the listed max draw. Lesser spikes would occur as the heating element cycled on and off to maintain temperature. It is one downside to Brother lasers, they keep the design simple and basic, and tend to be more reliable without some of the bells and whistles of other designs. But they can be harder on the electrical supply.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> Of course now in 2010, there are so many ways to get the shows, that if you do miss an episode, there is usually an alternative way to get it.


I think this is part of the reason Tivo is losing subscribers. I've downloaded free episodes of shows when I am out-of-town. It's hard to believe that Tivo is the legacy way to watch video but Apple (iTunes, iPods, iPhone,iPad,...) is definitely the cutting edge now.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

chicagobrownblue said:


> ...I've downloaded free episodes of shows when I am out-of-town...


Legally?


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> Legally?


Yes. Podcasts with one commercial at the start and no commercials in the middle. CNBC's "Mad Money" and "Fast Money". These are available after the shows air but are archived back several weeks. and download in the sense that I could then upload them to my iPod for viewing.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Apple (iTunes, iPods, iPhone,iPad,...) is definitely the cutting edge now.


I don't think you are in touch with reality...


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

mr_smits said:


> I don't think you are in touch with reality...


The reality for Tivo is plunging subscriber numbers and a shaky start with a new product. On the other hand you have to pay Apple for their hardware and then pay again and again and again to download music, TV shows, apps. Then, just to make sure no one can compete, give away lots of podcasts for free.

Due to the ease of use and great customer experience with iPod, iPhone and iPad millions go out and buy a Mac computer at two to three times the comparable Windows PC cost.

Pull up a 5-year chart of TIVO and then add AAPL on Google Finance and see what the stockmarket thinks is reality.

I own three Microsoft Windows PCs. The only Apple product I own is a recently acquired 5-th generation nano.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

chicagobrownblue said:


> The reality for Tivo is plunging subscriber numbers and a shaky start with a new product. On the other hand you have to pay Apple for their hardware and then pay again and again and again to download music, TV shows, apps. Then, just to make sure no one can compete, give away lots of podcasts for free.


I said you are not in touch with reality as you said that ipod/touch/pad/phone are "cutting edge" for tv style or dvr viewing. That is simply not true. There is an extreme minority of people that are ok with not having cable but end up spending about as much as monthly cable bill to purchase or rent commercial free shows from itunes or Amazon.

I also agree that Tivo is struggling.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

mr_smits said:


> I said you are not in touch with reality as you said that ipod/touch/pad/phone are "cutting edge" for tv style or dvr viewing. That is simply not true. There is an extreme minority of people that are ok with not having cable but end up spending about as much as monthly cable bill to purchase or rent commercial free shows from itunes or Amazon.
> 
> I also agree that Tivo is struggling.


I stopped cable tv service and I am saving $958 a year. I had Netflix both with and without cable tv service, so that cost was not included in my savings. $958 will buy me a LOT of Amazon/Blockbuster movies (if I chose to do so) before I come remotely close to coming to what I spent on cable, with the 300+ channels I never watched...

Edit: I should also mention that of the 48-50 Season Passes, only 6 were for cable programs...


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## chrispitude (Apr 23, 2005)

orangeboy said:


> I stopped cable tv service and I am saving $958 a year. I had Netflix both with and without cable tv service, so that cost was not included in my savings. $958 will buy me a LOT of Amazon/Blockbuster movies (if I chose to do so) before I come remotely close to coming to what I spent on cable, with the 300+ channels I never watched...


It sounds like cable TV itself, and the concept of a cable DVR in general, are a poor fit for your content needs.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

chrispitude said:


> It sounds like cable TV itself, and the concept of a cable DVR in general, are a poor fit for your content needs.


Exactly. So that's why I went with TiVo's OTA DVR. :up:


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I hate these comparisons where someone says I canceled cable and now use use just Netflix and OTA and I save a ton of money!!!!!!!! 

Of course you do. You are getting alot less content, variety of content and/or current content. 

I can see how that works for some, but let's not pretend you are getting the same thing for less.


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> Yes. All my electronics are on a UPS. Every piece. We get too many voltage spikes and brownouts here for me to risk any problems. I've never had any issues with the equipment since putting everything on UPSs. I have had lamps got out from the surges/brownouts so I won't risk any equipment.
> 
> Without a UPS, you could have the device turn on and off sevral times in just 10 seconds(which is what has killed a couple of my lamps). That can wreak havoc on electronic devices.
> 
> I put everything on a UPS. whether it's one of my PCs, my alarm clocks, cordess phones, TVs, receivers, etc. And of course all my network gear since I have over seventy devices relying on internet access so I need to make sure my FiOS connection stays up(plus my alarm system connects through the internet) If I could have a whole house generator/backup I would have one but I'm in a condo and the Association won't allow me to install one since the generator is outside.


Having onced lived in Virginia and knowing what Vepco's rates are, do you mind me asking what your electric bill is every month?

With 70 electronic devices relying on internet access I can imagine the heat generated by said devices. Has the drug task force ever come to your house looking for growing devices?


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## TrueTurbo (Feb 19, 2008)

donnoh said:


> Having onced lived in Virginia and knowing what Vepco's rates are, do you mind me asking what your electric bill is every month?
> 
> With 70 electronic devices relying on internet access I can imagine the heat generated by said devices. Has the drug task force ever come to your house looking for growing devices?


A-ha! I think you may have rumbled him. All this talk about the tens and hundreds of devices he has is just a cover story to hide the power drain from his grow lamps and air conditioning units!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

donnoh said:


> Having onced lived in Virginia and knowing what Vepco's rates are, do you mind me asking what your electric bill is every month?
> 
> With 70 electronic devices relying on internet access I can imagine the heat generated by said devices. Has the drug task force ever come to your house looking for growing devices?


My bills now are no lower than $150 a month.
I have 70+ devices, but they aren't all on 24/7. Some, like my cameras are on 24/7 but barely draw any power. While some, like the TiVos(24 watts each) do draw more power since they are on 24/7. My electricity usage is equal to or less than what I used 10 or 12 years ago.. Back then I had four halogen 500 watt floor lamps that were on alot. Plus I had several PCs running 24/7 too. And my bills were under $100 every month. I also had an old water heater, refrigerator, and old heat pump. All those have been replaced with more efficient models. As well as all lighting has been changed out to fluorescent instead of Halogen/incandescent.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> I hate these comparisons where someone says I canceled cable and now use use just Netflix and OTA and I save a ton of money!!!!!!!!
> 
> Of course you do. You are getting alot less content, variety of content and/or current content.
> 
> I can see how that works for some, but let's not pretend you are getting the same thing for less.


Who said I was getting the same for less? The comment was those without cable:


mr_smits said:


> ...end up spending about as much as monthly cable bill to purchase or rent commercial free shows from itunes or Amazon...


I declare that a bull**** statement.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

trip1eX said:


> I hate these comparisons where someone says I canceled cable and now use use just Netflix and OTA and I save a ton of money!!!!!!!!
> 
> Of course you do. You are getting alot less content, variety of content and/or current content.
> 
> I can see how that works for some, but let's not pretend you are getting the same thing for less.


This is a valid point. However, the benefit with OTA only is that you have the option to just get the local channels/major networks.

When was the last time the cable company or satellite provider allowed you to subscribe to ONLY the major broadcast networks, for say, $5-10 a month? For that matter, when have they ever allowed you to order the channels you want without paying for 100-200+ channels you don't watch? Until they stop playing games with the programming packages, the only way to win is not to play.

Yes, a lot more content is _available_. Whether it has any value depends on whether you actually watch it. The cable/satellite providers would like you to believe that value is based on who can provide the most channels for the most money. It's much like our local phone company who always wants us to save money and get better value by bundling extra features we'd never use. So, I'd have to spend $30 extra per month to save $10 per month. Whose economics are flawed here?


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

orangeboy said:


> Who said I was getting the same for less? The comment was those without cable:
> 
> I declare that a bull**** statement.


:up:


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

aaroncgi said:


> This is a valid point. However, the benefit with OTA only is that you have the option to just get the local channels/major networks.
> 
> When was the last time the cable company or satellite provider allowed you to subscribe to ONLY the major broadcast networks, for say, $5-10 a month? For that matter, when have they ever allowed you to order the channels you want without paying for 100-200+ channels you don't watch? Until they stop playing games with the programming packages, the only way to win is not to play.
> 
> Yes, a lot more content is _available_. Whether it has any value depends on whether you actually watch it. The cable/satellite providers would like you to believe that value is based on who can provide the most channels for the most money. It's much like our local phone company who always wants us to save money and get better value by bundling extra features we'd never use. So, I'd have to spend $30 extra per month to save $10 per month. Whose economics are flawed here?


I can actually get the local channels plus a couple cable channels for $13 a month. I believe that is the case in most areas since the local cable authority can regulate rates for the basic level of service. Most people have at least expanded basic which they think is basic because the cable company does not like to tell anyone about the basic level


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

randyb359 said:


> I can actually get the local channels plus a couple cable channels for $13 a month. I believe that is the case in most areas since the local cable authority can regulate rates for the basic level of service. Most people have at least expanded basic which they think is basic because the cable company does not like to tell anyone about the basic level


That's not a bad deal. How much does the price jump up when you want HD and a DVR, though? 

Truth be told, _after_ we cancelled our Dish Network subscription, even though we asked numerous times for a lower level of service which they claimed didn't exist, they offered us a package at a price close to what you mentioned above. However, add on DVR fees and other fees, and it still would end up twice the cost per month as our Tivo (including hardware and subscription fees), and was not available with HD at all.

I've never tried to see what Comcast would offer, never having worked with them. However, since all their regular prices are already more than Dish, I didn't see the point.


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## lujan (May 24, 2010)

aaroncgi said:


> That's not a bad deal. How much does the price jump up when you want HD and a DVR, though?
> 
> Truth be told, _after_ we cancelled our Dish Network subscription, even though we asked numerous times for a lower level of service which they claimed didn't exist, they offered us a package at a price close to what you mentioned above. However, add on DVR fees and other fees, and it still would end up twice the cost per month as our Tivo (including hardware and subscription fees), and was not available with HD at all.
> 
> I've never tried to see what Comcast would offer, never having worked with them. However, since all their regular prices are already more than Dish, I didn't see the point.


I just recently switched from Dish to Comcast because Comcast had their triple play at $99.00 for internet, TV and phone. It works out a lot less than Dish, Qwest and Comcast all separate. The $99.00 is for the first year, then up by $15.00 for year 2 and another $15.00 for year 3 and then stays there. After that if it goes up too much more, I can seek other options.


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## Ceplenski (Dec 30, 2007)

I have owned practically every Tivo model, and made the mistake of upgrading from my Series 3 to a Premier. I gained nothing but some disk space that I could have gotten for half price with a weakknees.com upgrade. 

The HD interface is not only sluggish, but locks up the entire Tivo (not just the interface) daily, causing shows to not be recorded. I spent a ton of time on the phone with Tivo Support, only to be told to use the SD interface (which has no Premier features) and to wait patiently for a software upgrade sometime this YEAR!!!

If you have a Tivo, keep it for a while. If you bought a Premier, join the club of ripped off customers and set your menus to SD mode.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Ceplenski said:


> I have owned practically every Tivo model, and made the mistake of upgrading from my Series 3 to a Premier. I gained nothing but some disk space that I could have gotten for half price with a weakknees.com upgrade.
> 
> The HD interface is not only sluggish, but locks up the entire Tivo (not just the interface) daily, causing shows to not be recorded. I spent a ton of time on the phone with Tivo Support, only to be told to use the SD interface (which has no Premier features) and to wait patiently for a software upgrade sometime this YEAR!!!
> 
> If you have a Tivo, keep it for a while. If you bought a Premier, join the club of ripped off customers and set your menus to SD mode.


I've had no issues like this with my Premieres. Every show has been recorded properly the same as my previous TiVos. No lockups and I use the HD interface on all my units,


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

orangeboy said:


> I declare that a bull**** statement.


Fair enough. But if you don't mind sharing your weekly viewing habits, we'll run the numbers to be sure. Just post every weekly show you watch and the channel it is on.


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## Rebate_King (Nov 10, 2004)

My two premieres are running great.


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## ericlhyman (May 19, 2001)

Received my Premiere XL with 1 TB esata hard drive on May 1 to replace FIOS HD DVR. Have not had any serious glitches, but there are some inconveniences in the software compared to DirecTV HD DVR. Not sure if this is the best thread to post this on.

I like to watch a show while scheduling new recordings for the week. Can't set a new recording in the guide w/o the recorded program being played stopping. After the new recording is scheduled, the program being played starts again, but jumps back several minutes or more. 

No button or arrow to exit open HD Menu.

Program guide obscures recorded program being played. Better to have small box w/ full program view above guide. 

Can't fast forward in program being played while program guide open.

Can't jump 12 hours and 24 hours in program guide.

Changing channel searched in guide takes you back to today's date rather than staying on date where you were.

HD Menu is slow. 

Unnecessary step in menu before reaching "other showings" 

Should be able to limit search results to cable/antenna shows, excluding shows to purchase.


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## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

ericlhyman said:


> Should be able to limit search results to cable/antenna shows, excluding shows to purchase.


I'm pretty sure you can exclude shows to purchase... if not in the search options, then at a higher level of hierarchy in the settings.


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