# For the first time ever TiVo Loses Subscribers



## Leo Valiant (Apr 19, 2000)

"TiVo actually lost 145,000 customers in the quarter. More troubling is where it is losing paying subscribers: from those that have the standalone box, its most profitable segment. The decline was the first in the company's history."

http://www.betanews.com/article/TiVo_Loses_145000_Subscribers/1188496628


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

I think you'll see an upswing on the next report. The TiVo HD launched right at the end of the quarter, and I think you'll see some pretty significant sales towards the end of the year, now that TiVo has an affordable HD box and theoretically Comcast will start signing up users on their box.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

yep, TiVo speculated the loss was folks dropping series 2 to do HD with cable company DVR


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

And it is entirely possible that even with the drop in subscribers that they did not have a (total) revenue drop with the price increases and all......


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## dkaz (Aug 30, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yep, TiVo speculated the loss was folks dropping series 2 to do HD with cable company DVR


Unfortunately, TiVO's original HD offering was priced out of most people's price range, which will now backfire given HD's growth.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

And perhaps this is also fallout from their ill-conceived price increase, service contracts and early termination fees.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

dkaz said:


> Unfortunately, TiVO's original HD offering was priced out of most people's price range, which will now backfire given HD's growth.


It may have slowed down Tivo's growth, but I don't see it necessarily backfiring. If someone opted to get Comcast' HD DVR box instead, it will probably take them a month to realize how crappy it is. Any trip to avsforum or dslreports will reveal that. Since they are not locked into a contract, it will be easy enough for them to switch.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

kmill14 said:


> It may have slowed down Tivo's growth, but I don't see it necessarily backfiring. If someone opted to get Comcast' HD DVR box instead, it will probably take them a month to realize how crappy it is. Any trip to avsforum or dslreports will reveal that. Since they are not locked into a contract, it will be easy enough for them to switch.


Don't fool yourself now. Tivo's price increases and contracts are causing tons of potential subscribers to choose something else. Tivo really needs to go back to no contracts and a reasonable price point. Tivo's biggest competition is D* IMHO. Tons of HR10 subscribers and plenty of S2 folks as well have left to D* for the HR20 and the new HD channels that are about to hit and we *are* locked into a contract. I'm not happy about it, but with SDV and a crappy local cable company for HD the Sat companies get my business.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Count me*
among them. Dumped DirecTV based on the HR20-700 and two DirecTiVo series2 boxes went away along with the broken HR10-250, three TiVo box subs gone this quarter. Only my 7+years young lifetimed Series1 still chugging and waiting for SDV and QAM tuning issues to be resolved before we jump to TiVoHD...


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

generalpatton71 said:


> Don't fool yourself now. Tivo's price increases and contracts are causing tons of potential subscribers to choose something else. Tivo really needs to go back to no contracts and a reasonable price point.


Can't go back to no contracts unless you have absolutely no hardware subsidy on the boxes. Pretty sure I read that the actual cost to Tivo for the THD box is close to $300, so (at least for now), retail on the THD would have to be around $400+ to even consider that. Then you are dealing with an upfront cost that's too much for many.


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## etemple (Oct 26, 2003)

I'm about ready to jump ship myself, despite having just dropped $50 on the wireless adapter. I switched to digital cable and now my box won't work. I've posted about iit in the help thread, but after 2 hours on the phone with the support techs, I'm no closer to a fix  The third suport person's attitude didn't help matters, especially because she's the one who kept forgetting which box I have. Grrr.

I can't afford HD right now, and even if I could afford the TV, there's no way I could afford the S3. It's all too expensive. The cable companies interface isn't nearly as good as tivo, but I bet it would work. And I would have to pay $17/mo. 

At least I don't have a service commitment right now. . .


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## jeffspam (Feb 27, 2001)

I've been a subscriber off-and-on for 7+ years, first with a monthly S1 sub, and eventually the same sub with a refurbed S2. When the rates went up the first time, I canceled the sub after just a few months of the new rates. Yes, I'm still kicking myself for not doing the $299 lifetime sub way back when. Eventually, I ended up finding a couple of S2 units with lifetime subs for a good price, which is what I'm using these days. 

I'm now thinking about giving my father-in-law one of the lifetimes, and re-subbing my old, refurbed S2 as my 2nd unit, eventually upgrading to the new HD box. This time, I figured that with the MSD to drop the monthly price, paying $7/mo wouldn't be so bad. But once I went to tivo.com and saw the current prices, I ran away screaming. The only way to get a reasonable rate is to sign up for a 3-yr contract -- and that's hardly a reasonable trade-off. Worse, to subscribe it at all, I'd have to commit to at least a year of service. What are you guys thinking? Is it any wonder that subs are down?

Used S2's are all over the place, and these things are going to end up in the dump if Tivo can't figure out a way to reuse them again. I can understand that you don't want to lower the monthly price for new subscribers with new boxes, but let existing customers acquire these used Tivos and subscribe them CHEAP. It means additional revenue for Tivo with no new hardware subsidy costs. At $5/mo for existing customers with "BYOT" (bring-your-own-tivo), you'd get a ton of interest, and a whole new source of revenue from people who are less likely to need hand-holding, more likely to have broadband connections (avoiding dial-up costs), and it'd increase subscriber loyalty (give one to the kids; with KidZone, you won't be able to give it up so easy if you start talking about switch to a cable DVR).

Thanks for reading my rant.


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## EVizzle (Feb 13, 2005)

I bought a S2 with lifetime 3+ years ago because I hated monthly subscriptions. Soon after I got a cell phone, went to college, got a car payment, monthly bills and though I still hate monthly subscriptions, I have grown to accept paying for quality. When the S3 came out, I loved it but hated the price. I wanted to transfer my lifetime but still needed TivoToGo, so I waited and waited. The new pricing was frustrating, but the TC forums taught me about the multiservice discount and because I love tivo and hate comcast, I figured paying a little more would be worth it. 

As it turns out, my monthly bill is less with cablecards and a series 3 than it would be with a cable box and HDDVR through those fools that live to anger me. It came down to loyalty, quality, customer feedback, simplicity, interface and the least important factor being cost. I was willing to pay more, but it turns out I saved on my monthly bills. Just as I "overpaid" for my ipod when it was new and "overpaid" for my PS3, both of which have dropped in price, I will continue to overpay for brands and products that are worth it. It just so happens that there are less of those brands that I trust today than ever before, and Tivo tops the list. As long as there is a tivo subscription to have, I will always look there first.

The same goes for Netflix, Canon cameras, Sony videogames, Apple, Panasonic, and until I have a bad experience, I have no need to change. Everything gets a little simpler when you need something new and you stick with a brand you trust. I never look at the charge from Tivo and think "where are they tricking me this month" as I have to do with Comcast, yet owning a Tivo box has kept me away from DTV.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

You want to see a big drop in subscribers? Just have TiVo drop the ball with SDV. If word gets out about lots of TiVo owners having $800 or even $300 paperweights (which are really often $1100 and $600 paperweights, since many folks bought three year subscriptions in advance), then you'll see TiVo sales plummet, and you'll see people dropping TiVo subscriptions at the end of their contracts, in droves.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Well, just look on eBay and you will see why there is a decrease. All the time I see people selling and the reason they give is that the Cable Co. or SAT DVR is less expensive. They never really take into account that while their DVR fee is only 5.99.... that they are paying big bucks for content. Content that for the the most part they do not really watch. 

If you live in a big market (more channels in HD) then you can get OTA HD for free. Get a pair of rabbit ears and hook it up to your digital tuner.... you'll be suprised by the quality. Gone are the days of ghost images and grainy pictures on the old SD OTA.

I personally think that Tivo should be working with the FCC to make Directv and Dish come up with some standard (cable card or whatever) so that Tivo can create a DVR like the S3 for satellite. 

Image in that..... -145,000 subscribers... that nothing..... the potential for subscribers with an alternative to Directv HR20..... now that would be sweet.


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## acgaustin (Sep 1, 2007)

In all fairness, Tivo deserves to lose subscribers... they launched an incredibly expensive series 3 and then they treat those owners like outcasts.

No tivo2go? no movie sharing? You are supposed to service your premier customers first.

What reason is there for a series 2 owner to upgrade to a series 3? None, they will LOSE functionality by upgrading.

Sounds like they are taking a lesson in marketing and customer relations from bill gates.


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## Guy Kuo (Feb 10, 1999)

Long time user here. Added the Comcast DVR for HD when the only TiVo offering FELT too expensive to justify. For SD we continued to use a series 2 TiVo. On the Comcast HD PVR we missed the TiVo interface and reliability, but Microsoft foundation software was at least reasonably usable, just not well polished.

Two factors brought us back 

1. The new TiVo HD is priced low enough that box + subscription + extra hard drive space was about $1000. That isn't cheap, but a lot better than what the series 3 was going to require.

2. Comcast switched our region to iGuide and the user interface was so bad that my wife rated it enough of a problem to free "emergency" funding to fix the problem.

So now we're blissfully using the TiVo HD and the old series 2 has a companion.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The lack of in house transfers on the S3 platform are not exactly their fault, it is Cablelabs that restricts Tivo's implementation of that feature, although Tivo could have released a conditional transfers earlier.

As for upgrading to an HD-TiVo, well the answer is simply HD. Some would sooner have that with temporary lack of transfers with the TiVo interface, and possibility of transfers they are used to, rather than a suffer with a provider's DVR and less chance of networking features at all.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

classicsat said:


> The lack of in house transfers on the S3 platform are not exactly their fault, it is Cablelabs that restricts Tivo's implementation of that feature, although Tivo could have released a conditional transfers earlier.


I'm not sure what you mean by "conditional transfers".

But I'm tired of reading this apologia for TiVo's incompetence. Cablelabs does not, *can not*, restrict transfers of HD recorded OTA. And yet even that does not appear in S3, a full year after its release. Neither does "TiVo to come back" aka a way to upload content to the box.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Just playing devil's advocate for a second, and supporting Gremlin's point -- TiVo could have devoted more resources towards applying pressure on CableLabs to approve MRV.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bicker said:


> Just playing devil's advocate for a second, and supporting Gremlin's point -- TiVo could have devoted more resources towards applying pressure on CableLabs to approve MRV.


You always seem to want to play devil's advocate ...

This is a pretty ridiculous statement unless you can back it up with detail on what Tivo has done with CL to date and you have intimate knowledge of 
the CL approval process and licensing restrictions/requirements.

So -
What has Tivo done?
What are CLs issues with MRV?
Exactly what level of resource does Tivo need to apply?

Knowing a LITTLE about the CL org and process, I suspect more of the issues are of CL's making rather than Tivo's.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> You always seem to want to play devil's advocate ...


No, not really. Often I actually believe something different from you. When I play devil's advocate, it means I actually agree with you.

There are no sacred cows. Practically no perspective deserves an un-rebutted soap-box.



jfh3 said:


> This is a pretty ridiculous statement unless you can back it up with detail on what Tivo has done with CL to date and you have intimate knowledge of the CL approval process and licensing restrictions/requirements.


Not at all. Especially since I'm playing devil's advocate, I don't need to do anything of the sort. It is "ridiculous" to assert that I do. 

Back to topic: It seems very clear to me that if Microsoft (for example) owned TiVo, the impact on the legislative and regulatory process might have been quite different.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bicker said:


> Back to topic: It seems very clear to me that if Microsoft (for example) owned TiVo, the impact on the legislative and regulatory process might have been quite different.


Still not on topic.

You made a big charge against Tivo and offered no proof to back it up.

IF Microsoft owned Tivo the impact may have been different. OK, so what? What does that have to do with what Tivo hasn't done that they should've/could've done? What proof do you have that they could have (reasonably) done more than they have, which, before you get too far off point, was your original claim.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

generalpatton71 said:


> Don't fool yourself now. Tivo's price increases and contracts are causing tons of potential subscribers to choose something else. Tivo really needs to go back to no contracts and a reasonable price point. Tivo's biggest competition is D* IMHO. Tons of HR10 subscribers and plenty of S2 folks as well have left to D* for the HR20 and the new HD channels that are about to hit and we *are* locked into a contract. I'm not happy about it, but with SDV and a crappy local cable company for HD the Sat companies get my business.


In total agreeance.

Yes Tivo now has the TivoHD, which is a great unit, BUT being for Cable only, I have no option but Directv Sat.

The intial costs to get the same or a similar setup with Cable are just not worth it, then the added costs of the TivoHD.

I do hope Directv and Tivo can get something sorted out, but with the new HD Channels, newer units and better Technology, many people will forget Tivo and stay with their companies units.

Its a shame really....


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## jkovach (Feb 17, 2000)

Dear Tivo,

I want to buy a Tivo HD, I really do. But I live where Cox uses Scientific Atlanta equipment, and I've heard that the Tivo HD currently doesn't work well with SA cable cards. Fix it, and I'll join the party.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

jkovach said:


> Dear Tivo,
> 
> I want to buy a Tivo HD, I really do. But I live where Cox uses Scientific Atlanta equipment, and I've heard that the Tivo HD currently doesn't work well with SA cable cards. Fix it, and I'll join the party.


Your post illustrates a basic problem facing TiVo. The Internet has increased the velocity of dissemination of information. Companies *must* adapt to this new reality. Or they will die.


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

I'd also love a HD TiVo, but I have Qwest Choice TV over VDSL, which doesn't support CableCard at all.


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## Lukej (Apr 28, 2006)

acgaustin said:


> In all fairness, Tivo deserves to lose subscribers...


For more than one reason. TIVO came up with an incredible product 7 years ago. But then it took them 6 years to add a second tuner? Please....

I won't even mention the HD mess. I remember when it came out and posters were saying that $800 (with no rebate then) was way overpriced, TIVO zealots here were swearing up and down that such a price is what it should be because it's only for a niche market and not the rest of us commoners, and if we can't afford it, we weren't supposed to anyway. Guess TIVO had the same disdain for the commoners until they started seeing piles of their series 3 not moving anywhere from their shelves.

Even for the HD market (way smaller than the general market) $12.95 per month on 3-year contract plus the cost of 2 cablecards ends up double (or more) the price of a digital cable box with full interactive functionality.


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

Lukej said:


> For more than one reason. TIVO came up with an incredible product 7 years ago. But then it took them 6 years to add a second tuner? Please....


For standalones. DirecTiVo units have had 2 tuners for a long time.


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

jfh3 said:


> Can't go back to no contracts unless you have absolutely no hardware subsidy on the boxes. Pretty sure I read that the actual cost to Tivo for the THD box is close to $300, so (at least for now), retail on the THD would have to be around $400+ to even consider that. Then you are dealing with an upfront cost that's too much for many.


What many people chafe at are the contracts on used units. If you have an old S2 unit lying around and figure you can turn it on for $6.95/month - you can if you sign up for 36 months. That just seems stupid to many people.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

ADent said:


> What many people chafe at are the contracts on used units. If you have an old S2 unit lying around and figure you can turn it on for $6.95/month - you can if you sign up for 36 months. That just seems stupid to many people.


I agree. I think that Tivo should have some sort of plan for used boxes where the hardware subsidy has already been recovered.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> What does that have to do with what Tivo hasn't done that they should've/could've done?


Are you such a TiVo promoter that you really don't (or can't) understand devil's advocacy?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ADent said:


> What many people chafe at are the contracts on used units. If you have an old S2 unit lying around and figure you can turn it on for $6.95/month - you can if you sign up for 36 months. That just seems stupid to many people.


The TiVo CSR went on and on and on when I turned the service off to my Humax S2, as if I was making a decision I'd regret later.  I bet TiVo is doing the right thing, but I cannot come up with a rationale that fits the circumstances.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bicker said:


> Are you such a TiVo promoter that you really don't (or can't) understand devil's advocacy?


You weren't playing devil's advocate and you know it.

Since you have once again shown that you have no real interest in having a rational discussion or backing up unfounded accusations, there's no need for me to waste my time with you.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I friggen *said*: "Just playing devil's advocate for a second..." And you acknowledged that in your reply. You've gone off the deep end.

Get a grip.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bicker said:


> I friggen *said*: "Just playing devil's advocate for a second..." And you acknowledged that in your reply. You've gone off the deep end.
> 
> Get a grip.


Sorry if you can't handle someone calling you out.

As for going off the deep end, go back and read your original post. 

I'm not the one that made unfounded claims and refused to back them up.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Just playing devil's advocate for a second, and supporting Gremlin's point -- TiVo could have devoted more resources towards applying pressure on CableLabs to approve MRV.


and what would more pressure on cableLabs have effect on. I realize you are palying devil's advocate here but really Cable lbas forced TiVo into the position of; release S3 now or wait an unknown amount of time"

TiVo chose to release the S3 and get some sales instead for those that wanted HD more than TiVoTogo. Then they got caught in the fact that many more people than most thought were buying HD capable only and S2 subs sales dropepd off. So now the TiVo HD hit just 2 days before the close of this quarter.

It will be 2008 before sub sales are back to normal effect, though. The TiVo HD will have its initial effect now and then by the end of this year (mark my words) TiVoToGo/comeback/MRV will finally be out for the S3 line. TiVo said they had a plan to execute against and I hope they have placed a good number of resources on that


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Lukej said:


> I won't even mention the HD mess. I remember when it came out and posters were saying that $800 (with no rebate then) was way overpriced, TIVO zealots here were swearing up and down that such a price is what it should be because it's only for a niche market and not the rest of us commoners, and if we can't afford it, we weren't supposed to anyway. Guess TIVO had the same disdain for the commoners until they started seeing piles of their series 3 not moving anywhere from their shelves.


The original S3 was designed to be a premium unit and thus the 800$ price point. Some like the premium unit and paid 800$, others wanted HD on a TiVo so badly they paid 800$, others shopped it and paid 400 to 600$ for it. TiVo seems to have sold the S3 at the pace they expected for an 800$ retail box. That was not the problem.

The problem was what this thread was about. TiVo saw more people than they expected moving to HD and dropping S2 subscriptions. They did not expect that non premium market movement to HD starting so soon.


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## 1388 (Sep 25, 2000)

TiVo-monthy-fee + CableCard-fee + CableCard-fee *>* cable-co-HD-DVR-box-fee

The above equation kills TiVo. It doesn't even include the price of the TiVo box!

I grant you, the cable-co-HD-DVR-box is crappy, and with TiVo you get quality and happiness. However, the cable-co-HD-DVR-box works with anything the cable-co does (switched digital, PPV, etc.), and if it breaks, I get a new one for free.

I have a Series 2 with Lifetime sitting unused in a closet.*

TiVo's inability to execute coupled with the cable-co DVR monopoly juggernaut makes me weep. 

*The Series 2 plus the cable-co STB-tuner is no match for a box that does pure digital, even on the standard-def tier (analog/digital simulcast).


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

Tivo has nearly removed all value from used units, I'd like to see the option for a one time payment to make a used unit a MRV only box. Kind of like Microsoft offers with its windows media center extenders.

I've actually been tempted to reactivate my old S2 but not enough for a commitment on an analog only box.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

L said:


> TiVo-monthy-fee + CableCard-fee + CableCard-fee *>* cable-co-HD-DVR-box-fee
> 
> The above equation kills TiVo. It doesn't even include the price of the TiVo box!


TiVo $7 to $17 + 2 CableCards $2 <<< Comcast DVR $60 (not a typo)


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## Lukej (Apr 28, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> The original S3 was designed to be a premium unit and thus the 800$ price point. Some like the premium unit and paid 800$, others wanted HD on a TiVo so badly they paid 800$, others shopped it and paid 400 to 600$ for it. TiVo seems to have sold the S3 at the pace they expected for an 800$ retail box. That was not the problem.
> 
> The problem was what this thread was about. TiVo saw more people than they expected moving to HD and dropping S2 subscriptions. They did not expect that non premium market movement to HD starting so soon.


__________________________________________
www.tvpredictions.com/tivo082907.htm

News
TiVo: HDTV Is Killing Us
But the DVR service hopes its new low-cost HD recorder will turn things around.
By Swanni

Washington, D.C. (August 29, 2007) -- TiVo today blamed a decline in DVR subscriber totals on the growth of High-Definition TV.

The company said today that it added only 41,000 gross subscriptions in the second quarter compared to 74,000 a year ago. Even worse, TiVo's cumulative subscriber total fell from 4.3 million in the first quarter to 4.2 million at the end of quarter two.

The DVR service said it has lost customers because it did not have a viable HD DVR for the millions of Americans who purchased high-def sets over the last year or so.

Until recently, TiVo's HD DVR cost $799, which the company has acknowledged was too expensive to generate serious sales.

"As has been the case in recent quarters, gross subscription additions were impacted by the pace at which retailers moved to a High Definition sales focus," TiVo CEO Tom Rogers said in the company's second quarter report which was released today.

TiVo last month introduced a $299 high-def recorder called 'TiVo HD' and the company said it believes the new product will turn around its high-def efforts.

____________________________________

Also, in announcing the TIVO HD, TIVO CEO Tom Rogers made the following statement:

we did not have a lower-priced mass appeal HD offering. As we indicated last quarter, given the price of our Series 3 unit, we have not been able to meaningfully participate in the HD wave in retail. without having a mass appeal priced HD unit to participate in the real key trends that you want to see in consumer electronics today, its difficult and until we have that product later this year.

This doesn't seem to me like it was moving at the pace they were expecting. Unless they *did* plan all along to have a product that would "not meaningfully participate in the HD wave in retail," in which case the company's long-standing financial problems can be easily explained away


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> The problem was what this thread was about. TiVo saw more people than they expected moving to HD and dropping S2 subscriptions. They did not expect that non premium market movement to HD starting so soon.


Regardless how they spin it, TiVo sold TOTAL (HD and SD) 41K units this quarter, 45% less than same time a year ago. TiVo lost 60K subs this quarter, 50% more that a same quarter a year ago. And all this with SAC at astronomical $758 per sub, 300% higher than a year ago. All these money for stupid TiVo antennas campaign down the drain (as usual).
Just shows that TiVo marketing is composed of the morons who couldn't sell water to a duck.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

I think most of us if not all of us love the tivo product here, and I think it says something when many of us are leaving. I can only blame tivo for the contracts and pricing, but I can't blame them for no MRV with the Tivo HD and Series 3. However it's just one more thing tivo can't use as a selling point. I can only imagine being a best buy clerk trying to sell a Series 3.

Clerk: Yes can I help you?

J6P+wife: Yes I'm interested in getting a new Tivo for my new HDTV I bought last week here.

Clerk: Well we have the Tivo HD and the Series 3 wich one are you interested in??

J6P+wife: What's the difference??

Clerk: One has a smaller drive and looks less cool, but it's allot cheaper.

J6P+wife: How much cheaper?

Clerk: Well ones about 500$ cheaper but both require a monthly fee and a contract.

J6P+wife: What a contract?? My Series 2 didn't require one that S****!

Wife: Well that's ok we love tivo and don't mind committing. What do we need to network it for MRV with our other tivo's?

Clerk: I'm sorry but there is no MRV for the HD units.

J6P: Wow I can't believe this. Maybe we should hold off??

Wife: We can't do that I want to be able to record the Food Network in HD in a couple weeks when Direct TV turns it on.

Clerk: Wait you want to use this with Directv?? I'm sorry but these tivo's don't work with Directv.

J6P+wife: These don't work with Directv's HD, but our other S2 works with it for SD?

Clerk: I'm sorry but thats just how there made, but we do have Directv's new HR20.

J6P+wife: Whats that?

Clerk: Well it's Directv's new DVR for HD and it will get all the new HD channels and soon VOD. It also has only one monthly fee that covers all the boxes plus dual tuners.

J6P+wife:Well this s**** we love tivo but they seem to offer the same features for the most part and we want all the new HD channels from Directv. So I guess we'll take a Hr20.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

You don't have to worry about that at all - the average clerk at Best Buy knows next to nothing about Tivo - they certainly aren't going to carry on a conversation at that level. 

(And you forgot about the non-refundable "Lease upgrade fee" for the DirecTV DVR  )


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> (And you forgot about the non-refundable "Lease upgrade fee" for the DirecTV DVR  )


Not true.

That fee disappears periodically. For example, right now on directv.com there is a "limited time offer" of over 250 channels free for 4 months. Click on it and learn:

Free DVR or HD receiver upgrade
Free professional installation
No equipment to buy; no start-up costs
Free handling and delivery
Free $50 Visa gift card

I think DirecTV made a horrible mistake with all the fees they tried to impose. But at least they are smart enough to (at least temporarily) recognize when they are wrong.

When will TiVo recognize that their shortsighted policies (e.g. new commitment on re-activation of old unit) are hurting them?

P.S. Okay the above offer probably only applies if you get NFL Sunday Ticket. But the point is still valid. DirecTV periodically makes it VERY ATTRACTIVE for people to subscribe. On the other hand, TiVo does everything it can to drive away both current and potential new customers.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> P.S. Okay the above offer probably only applies if you get NFL Sunday Ticket. But the point is still valid. DirecTV periodically makes it VERY ATTRACTIVE for people to subscribe. On the other hand, TiVo does everything it can to drive away both current and potential new customers.


DirecTV is actually worse - you are forced into a two-year commitment - no option for other terms - and at a much larger monthly and total $ commitment.

I would love to see Tivo have more flexibility in sub plans, especially for those wanting to use hardware that has already had the h/w subsidy recovered, but I wouldn't hold up DirecTV being better than Tivo from a commitment standpoint.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

samo said:


> Regardless how they spin it, TiVo sold TOTAL (HD and SD) 41K units this quarter, 45% less than same time a year ago. TiVo lost 60K subs this quarter, 50% more that a same quarter a year ago. And all this with SAC at astronomical $758 per sub, 300% higher than a year ago. All these money for stupid TiVo antennas campaign down the drain (as usual).
> Just shows that TiVo marketing is composed of the morons who couldn't sell water to a duck.


Well, that "spin" is what you're talking about - they sell fewer SD units, because people get non-TiVo HD units instead.

I have no idea how TiVo will turn things around, but I think they will HAVE TO drop the minimum commitment periods. It is a huge turn-off even for people in this forum, I can only imagine the resistance a new potential TiVo customer must feel.


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## Joey Bagadonuts (Mar 13, 2006)

MickeS said:


> I have no idea how TiVo will turn things around


Makes 2 of us. I think they've painted themselves into a corner, so to speak. They have a $300 HD unit that doesn't offer nearly all the bells and whistles the S2 does (specifically MRV and TTG). Not to mention the convoluted pricing plans they've come up with. And for those of you who have Time Warner for your cable company, I invite you to take a gander at this forum and read all the horror stories TiVo customers are relating with regard to TW and CableCard installs. Talk about a nightmare. For that reason, I went with a TW HD DVR and have had no problems whatsoever. I also like being able to access the _extras_ TW offers such as PPV and On Demand. I'll continue to use my three S2's (one lifetime sub and 2 at $6.95/month) but I don't see me buying another TiVo DVR anytime soon.


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## Narf54321 (Mar 30, 2005)

What I haven't seen mentioned here is the fact that a lot of us original S3 buyers were offered Lifetime Subscription transfers... for the not so low, low price of $199. What the 'transfer' fee really involved was moving the Lifetime over to he new S3, while simultaneously enrolling the old S1 or S2 unit into a _one-year_ pre-paid subscription.

I don't know how many S3 Lifetime transfers they processed, but the S3 has been out for about a year now. Don't be surprised that all those transferred S2 "enrollment" subscriptions are now being cancelled, before they get auto-renewed into month-by-month charges.

[Not to mention that despite how crappy the CableCo DVRs might be, the trend is that they have gotten better over time and the price is included in a single itemized bill. OTOH, Tivo now has expensive, confusing, customer-hostile annual plans similar to the cell-phone vendors which needs to be paid seperately (and in-addition) from the CableCo bill.]


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> Sorry if you can't handle someone calling you out.


Calling me out for saying something you disagree with. 

Practically no perspective deserves an un-rebutted soap-box, not even yours.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and what would more pressure on cableLabs have effect on. I realize you are palying devil's advocate here but really Cable lbas forced TiVo into the position of; release S3 now or wait an unknown amount of time"


Incidentally -- THIS is a mature response to my posting.

Good point, Zeo. Assuming TiVo had Microsoft's resources, though, significantly more pressure could have been applied (either at the regulatory level or the legislative leve) to get CableLabs to be more cooperative.



ZeoTiVo said:


> It will be 2008 before sub sales are back to normal effect, though.


Hopefully.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

L said:


> TiVo-monthy-fee + CableCard-fee + CableCard-fee *>* cable-co-HD-DVR-box-fee
> 
> The above equation kills TiVo.


Not necessarily. As you noted, that equation doesn't factor-in the relative value provided by the two alternatives. However, I grant that your equation still works out the way you suggest, for the majority of people -- not solely because the prices are too high, but rather more importantly because the value is too low in the mind of the typical person. One way to foster TiVo is to elevate the passion for television in the minds of the general public. However, just on social grounds (see recent articles on the obesity crisis ), I'm not sure that's really a good idea.


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

Cable Labs aside, I would guess that Tivo does have the power to allow me to transfer stuff from my computer to MY tivo. Yes, I've read how sending/receiving codes are tied together but that is Tivo's decision and has nothing to do with Cable Labs. I may understand that Tivo does not have the resources to do that programming but that is Tivo's decision, too. 

I've also read that Cable Labs has nothing to do with OTA HD (that's what I get - no cable, here) and Tivo could also implement that. Again, Tivo's choice about programming resources.

I like Tivo but I don't completely buy into the party line some LOVERS spout.


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## 1388 (Sep 25, 2000)

c3 said:


> TiVo $7 to $17 + 2 CableCards $2 <<< Comcast DVR $60 (not a typo)


Wow, Comcast really sticks it to you for the DVR.

I have Bright House, and their equation is more like:

TiVo $7-17 + 2 * CableCard $3.95 > $9.95 (or $9.95 + $6.95, depending on how you count)

The conspiracy-minded will note that Bright House overcharges for CableCards and undercharges for DVRs. Hmmm.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

fred2 said:



> Cable Labs aside, I would guess that Tivo does have the power to allow me to transfer stuff from my computer to MY tivo. Yes, I've read how sending/receiving codes are tied together but that is Tivo's decision and has nothing to do with Cable Labs. I may understand that Tivo does not have the resources to do that programming but that is Tivo's decision, too.
> 
> I've also read that Cable Labs has nothing to do with OTA HD (that's what I get - no cable, here) and Tivo could also implement that. Again, Tivo's choice about programming resources.
> 
> I like Tivo but I don't completely buy into the party line some LOVERS spout.


there is no party line here just "what happened"
TiVo was under the gun to put the S3 out and had lots of work to do aside from TTG/MRV. They tried working with cable labs to put out the TTG/MRV as is but no amount of Lawyers, guns and money was getting cable labs to budge at that time from NO content off the box, not even to an external married drive and no matter the source. They would have had to throw logic to allow only TTCB in the guts of well working code or wait to put out the S3. the business decision was to put the S3 in the hands of HD users and work out TTG/MRV and cable labs policies.

Since then they rushed the TiVo HD out since they then realized users in the non premium bracket were also buying HD ready stuff instead of SD. Again they had lots to do that could not include hacking up TTG/MRV. That was the bottleneck in resources - development and having to deal with a maintenance nightmare if they kludged up TTG/MRV.

anyway, since then Cable Labs has had more time to work out how it will allow content off a DVR and other players have also assailed cable labs for better policies. So that front is going better but it took time, the one resource TiVo had none of as far as holding products off the market.

TiVo has anounced a plan to get TTG/MRV out for the S3 platform by the end of this year. There is usually an update towards the end of the year so I think TiVo will execute on that plan given that they will have resources planned for an update and can thus do a good job of TTG/MRV for S3 instead of a quick slash and hack. Plus this is important to TiVo since a large differentiator from cable Company DVRs is the added features a TiVo brings even above Season Passes/wishlists.

So by 2008 TiVo will have the product set people are looking for now and also the fuller extra feature set that creates perceived value in a buyer's mind. Then we can get back to what effect the extended contracts and prcing hassles have.

Of course an overlooked detail of the earnings report is that TiVo has upped the revenue per sub from 8$ to closer to 9$ (forget exact figures but it was an increase). That number may be more important to TiVo then the slight increase in churn as they pass from the S2 platform to the S3 being the main platform.

and this is not TiVo party line; just some honest speculation on what Tivo has been through and what it is doing now strategy wise.


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## 1388 (Sep 25, 2000)

bicker said:


> Not necessarily. As you noted, that equation doesn't factor-in the relative value provided by the two alternatives.


Heck, I've owned a TiVo since the Series 1, and I love the interface.

Once you get past the horrific cable-co Scientific Atlanta DVR interface... it pretty much does the same thing. Seriously, even though I hate using it to select and record programming, it does do what I need it to do.

I guess what I'm saying is that TiVo's value proposition is highly subjective, and the majority can get used to bad interfaces as long as they more-or-less work. (E.g., Microsoft Windows.)


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

L said:


> > Originally Posted by c3
> > TiVo $7 to $17 + 2 CableCards $2 <<< Comcast DVR $60 (not a typo)
> 
> 
> Wow, Comcast really sticks it to you for the DVR.


C3 likes to tell everyone he pays $60 for a DVR but he starts with something like lifeline service then says in order to get a DVR he needs to upgrade to digital service. When you roll his digital plan and the DVR fee in it totals up to something like $60. A bit deceiving if you ask me since he always leaves that little detail out of his quotes for what he has to pay for a DVR.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

As with others, as I wrote here and here last November, I believed then and still believe that TiVo "jumped the shark" when it eliminated the lifetime option and set sail in this new course with these new ridiculous prices.

I've not been able to recommend TiVo to anyone since.

...Dale


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

L said:


> Heck, I've owned a TiVo since the Series 1, and I love the interface.
> 
> Once you get past the horrific cable-co Scientific Atlanta DVR interface... it pretty much does the same thing. Seriously, even though I hate using it to select and record programming, it does do what I need it to do.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that TiVo's value proposition is highly subjective, and the majority can get used to bad interfaces as long as they more-or-less work. (E.g., Microsoft Windows.)


Absolutley True. DVR's are now a commodity and TiVo has failed to efffectively distinguish itself from its competitors. The average consumer doesn't really care about the interface differences as long as it records. The simplicity of dealing just with the cable co fro service, single billing, that lack of any committment and zero upfront investment is something that Tivo will never be able to overcome. Tivo, on the other hand, has been experimenting with rebates, contracts and fee increases, etc. -- a business flailing in the industry, trying to stay alive

TiVo missed the boat on establishing market dominance when they didn't have serious competition -- and there is no going back to that point in time. I am saddened by the way this all played out in the market, as I like everyone on this board, appreciates Tivo for its innovation and wanted them to profit from their efforts. I am trying to believe in miracles, but things don't look good for Tivo.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and what would more pressure on cableLabs have effect on. I realize you are palying devil's advocate here but really Cable lbas forced TiVo into the position of; release S3 now or wait an unknown amount of time"
> 
> TiVo chose to release the S3 and get some sales instead for those that wanted HD more than TiVoTogo. Then they got caught in the fact that many more people than most thought were buying HD capable only and S2 subs sales dropepd off. So now the TiVo HD hit just 2 days before the close of this quarter.
> 
> It will be 2008 before sub sales are back to normal effect, though. The TiVo HD will have its initial effect now and then by the end of this year (mark my words) TiVoToGo/comeback/MRV will finally be out for the S3 line. TiVo said they had a plan to execute against and I hope they have placed a good number of resources on that


Fits my timeline....


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> DirecTV is actually worse - you are forced into a two-year commitment - no option for other terms - and at a much larger monthly and total $ commitment.
> 
> I would love to see Tivo have more flexibility in sub plans, especially for those wanting to use hardware that has already had the h/w subsidy recovered, but I wouldn't hold up DirecTV being better than Tivo from a commitment standpoint.


DirecTV is *far* better than TiVo from both a commitment and pricing viewpoint.

When I re-upped about 1.5 years ago I bought three additional R10 receivers at $100/ea. My current monthly cost is $6 for TiVo (once per account) plus $5/mo mirroring per receiver.

Compare that pricing to TiVo. I must agree to 3 year (not 2 year) commitment to get the lowest price. And even then, the price is *much* higher per box.

There are 4 components to pricing:

1) initial purchase price
2) TiVo fees
3) mirroring fees
4) programming fees

Here's a breakdown for someone like me with 4 active DirecTV boxes:

1) R10 boxes cost me $100/ea. My TiVo HD cost me $300. The poor saps who bought the S3 paid $800. Cost savings about $1000 to $2000.

2) DirecTV TiVo fee is $6/mo. TiVo charges $33/mo ($8.31 * 4). I save $27/mo.

3) DirecTV mirroring is $5/mo. Comcast mirroring is $7/mo plus cablecards (so about $10/mo). I save $15/mo.

4) without a teaser rate, Comcast programming is much more expensive than DirecTV. Savings vary with package but I save about $20/mo.

So right now I only have the $10/mo cheap cable, just to be able to play with TiVo HD. It would be irrational for me to replace DirecTV with TiVo until the pricing changes dramatically.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

ah30k said:


> C3 likes to tell everyone he pays $60 for a DVR but he starts with something like lifeline service then says in order to get a DVR he needs to upgrade to digital service. When you roll his digital plan and the DVR fee in it totals up to something like $60. A bit deceiving if you ask me since he always leaves that little detail out of his quotes for what he has to pay for a DVR.


Like saying Comcast charging $12/month for DVR is not deceiving? If Comcast really rents a DVR for $12/month, it will be out of business. I have had limited basic for over 15 years and have no plan to pay for channels I don't watch.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

c3 said:


> Like saying Comcast charging $12/month for DVR is not deceiving? If Comcast really rents a DVR for $12/month, it will be out of business. I have had limited basic for over 15 years and have no plan to pay for channels I don't watch.


Then everyone should start their answer with "For me the DVR costs..." There is no answer that is correct. Your answer is just as wrong as any other and pretending it is correct is just as wrong for you as me.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I think it is fairly obvious that both cable and satellite companies are embedding hardware costs into programing costs. If anyone things you are "paying" for Dishnetworks top of the line VIP622 DVR at $6/mo they must be smoking something. 

The more interesting question is why this is happening. Is it competitive pressures between the satellite and cable companies? or is it a concerted effort to prevent third party DVRs (and STBs for the cable companies) from entering the market? If the FCC actually wants an open system with competition in the DVR/STB market they are going to have to deal with this issue (along with several other other very notable issues covered in various threads in this forum). Until this happens the best TiVo (or anyone else) is going to do in the cable/satellite DVR/STB market is tread water. 

Thanks,


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> I think it is fairly obvious that both cable and satellite companies are embedding hardware costs into programing costs. If anyone things you are "paying" for Dishnetworks top of the line VIP622 DVR at $6/mo they must be smoking something.
> 
> The more interesting question is why this is happening. Is it competitive pressures between the satellite and cable companies? or is it a concerted effort to prevent third party DVRs (and STBs for the cable companies) from entering the market? If the FCC actually wants an open system with competition in the DVR/STB market they are going to have to deal with this issue (along with several other other very notable issues covered in various threads in this forum). Until this happens the best TiVo (or anyone else) is going to do in the cable/satellite DVR/STB market is tread water.
> 
> Thanks,


I have no doubt E* and D* give away or sell DVRs at a lower price point to get subscribers. However if they don't offer them and their competitior does then they will loose business. They aren't trying to make cash off of DVR's but rather trying to add value to being a subscriber to their service. Where Tivo's business is DVR's and they have to make money off of it.

The problem is that stand alone boxes don't work with HD anymore and thats a issue for them. People *have to* factor in service providers into the equation now. It's already confusing for consumers. I have to *buy* the box but it won't work without a monthly fee separate from my cable bill. I have to commit for x number of years. I have to connect it to a network or phone line for guide data. I need cable cards for HD and digital channels. I might not get all my cable channels if I have TWC or Comcast. I can't share shows to my PC or other another Tivo.

All these things factor against them and it becomes a very complicated decision just to get a tivo. If you want a DVD player you just buy one and it works. For Tivo it just doesn't work that way and it hurts them BADLY!


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I just think it is a hoot that all of those who believe MSOs want to 'save the profits from the STB rental' crowd are still so silent on this.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

FWIW, 

Tivo HD on Amazon.com is up to #144 in Top Sellers for Electronics. Thats as high as I have seen it since it rolled out (got as high as 130-140, dropped to 400, now back to 144). So people are buying it obviously, and it is still early.

I will be very curious to see the # of SA subs for 3Q.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ah30k said:


> Then everyone should start their answer with "For me the DVR costs..." There is no answer that is correct. Your answer is just as wrong as any other and pretending it is correct is just as wrong for you as me.


Or you could say his answer is just as correct as any other. 

If you look at total television costs per month, the least expensive cable DVR option is many times more expensive than the least expensive TiVo option. That's a fact.


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## 1388 (Sep 25, 2000)

If the cable companies embed hardware costs into their programming (which of course they do), then TiVo is screwed--I have to pay the programming cost either way, TiVo or not. I might as well get the monopoly subsidy and go with the cable-co DVR.

So, then, yes: I pay at most $16.90/month for my dual-tuner HD DVR, including hardware. Because if I were to replace it with a TiVo--for the same programming--I would only get back $16.90/month from the cable company. (And even that's not true as they'd be getting $7.90/month in CableCard fees--i.e., I'd be paying the cable-co $9/month less with a TiVo HD.)


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

More than a year I predicted that someday Dish and DTV would start giving away dvr service for free to compete with each other. It appears they are halfway there now. A new HD DVR from DTV is almost free if you ask nice, plus $6 a month service fee for your entire house.

Even if Tivo had a dvr that worked with DTV how could they compete with free?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

c3 said:


> Like saying Comcast charging $12/month for DVR is not deceiving? If Comcast really rents a DVR for $12/month, it will be out of business. I have had limited basic for over 15 years and have no plan to pay for channels I don't watch.


Limited basic? Isn't that like $12 a month for 20 channels. That doesn't exactly put you in the middle of the demographic for this forum.


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## lawstuff1145 (Sep 5, 2007)

I am a tivo fan boy and as far as I know I am the only person in syracuse, ny to own a series 3.

Far and away the feature that blows away my friends is that the tivo can upconvert standard tv into 1080i or 720p- its just an amazing feature and I dont know why the tivo people dont talk more about it

thanks


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> I would love to see Tivo have more flexibility in sub plans, especially for those wanting to use hardware that has already had the h/w subsidy recovered, but I wouldn't hold up DirecTV being better than Tivo from a commitment standpoint


There is no commitment with DirecTV if you are activating your old or used DVR. Commitment and/or cancellation penalty is for new subsidized equipment only.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> Limited basic? Isn't that like $12 a month for 20 channels. That doesn't exactly put you in the middle of the demographic for this forum.


Around $15 for about 30 analog channels and 8 local HD channels. Of these, I watch 1 analog (PBS) and 5 HD channels (FOX, NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS).

There are plenty of TiVo owners (including S3s) with OTA only or limited basic. I have no idea why people would need hundreds of channels.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> I have no idea why people would need hundreds of channels.


So they can say they have hundreds of channels and there still isn't anything on? 

Over time I had continued to add channels to my dishnetwork lineup and still had the problem of "lots of channels with nothing on" then I found out about DVRs. Now there is always something on my DVRs to watch. Honestly the only thing I would really miss from dishnetwork is SiFi and the music channels, I could see going with OTA and something like NetFlix or video downloads.

Thanks,


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## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

One of my TIVO S2's died a painful death last week and I haven't decided what to do about it. TIVO had an interesting offer but on looking at the fine print, it was actually a lousy offer. The unit wouldn't be available for 2nd tivo pricing even after the 1 year subscription. Plus with the looming Digital conversion, I'm questioning if it makes any sense to buy another analog device.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> Even if Tivo had a dvr that worked with DTV how could they compete with free?


The only true way is with features. For instance if Tivo and slingbox merged. Then offered so many features people were willing to pay more for them. Right now the S3 and Tivo Hd lost tons of features and offers basically what the HR20 does. I'm not saying it's tivo's fault they lost MRV, but I'm saying it still effects them. Tivo needs to innovate again and patent everything and then quickly enforce those patents if somebody tries to steal them.


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## formulaben (Jan 27, 2003)

Dajad said:


> As with others, as I wrote here and here last November, I believed then and still believe that TiVo "jumped the shark" when it eliminated the lifetime option and set sail in this new course with these new ridiculous prices.
> 
> I've not been able to recommend TiVo to anyone since.
> 
> ...Dale


Yep.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

There are many factors at work here:

1. They stopped offering lifetime, which makes it difficult to give as a gift.

2. DirecTV dropped them. Their DirecTivo products are obsolete. The flagship DirecTivo, HR-10, IS obsolete. 

3. The competition is finally catching up in terms of performance and usability. And it's cheaper. And it doesn't involve an expensive long-term commitment. 

4. The lack of PPV/VOD/TTG/MRV in their HD products. Cable has PPV & VOD. Verizon has PPV, VOD, and MRV (SD only).


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## DLR (Sep 17, 2002)

parzec said:


> Absolutley True. DVR's are now a commodity and TiVo has failed to efffectively distinguish itself from its competitors. The average consumer doesn't really care about the interface differences as long as it records. The simplicity of dealing just with the cable co fro service, single billing, that lack of any committment and zero upfront investment is something that Tivo will never be able to overcome. Tivo, on the other hand, has been experimenting with rebates, contracts and fee increases, etc. -- a business flailing in the industry, trying to stay alive
> 
> TiVo missed the boat on establishing market dominance when they didn't have serious competition -- and there is no going back to that point in time. I am saddened by the way this all played out in the market, as I like everyone on this board, appreciates Tivo for its innovation and wanted them to profit from their efforts. I am trying to believe in miracles, but things don't look good for Tivo.


Excellent post IMO. Also some good points made by BobCamp1.

I am very disappointed at the route TiVo has taken. It appears that Tivo's management is simply out of touch with the competition and main-stream consumers. The expectation that people will pay upfront for their the Tivo DVR AND a hefty monthly fee AND be locked into a contract is ridiculous.

We are moving in October. A few years ago we willingly paid a premium for two HR10-250 units. At the time there really wasn't another attractive option for us. Today the situation is different, very different. Friends and family members that were happy Tivo customers for years have moved on... and now I understand why!


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

DLR said:


> I am very disappointed at the route TiVo has taken. It appears that Tivo's management is simply out of touch with the competition and main-stream consumers. The expectation that people will pay upfront for their the Tivo DVR AND a hefty monthly fee AND be locked into a contract is ridiculous.


I agree. An excellent summary of the sad state of affairs.

TiVo probably gives their employees free service. It might make sense for them to *NOT* do that. If employees had to pay "out of pocket" there might be more internal pushback to the current insane business practices.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

c3 said:


> Like saying Comcast charging $12/month for DVR is not deceiving? If Comcast really rents a DVR for $12/month, it will be out of business. I have had limited basic for over 15 years and have no plan to pay for channels I don't watch.


+1, and I really enjoy getting my HD for FREE OTA.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

lawstuff1145 said:


> Far and away the feature that blows away my friends is that the tivo can upconvert standard tv into 1080i or 720p- its just an amazing feature and I dont know why the tivo people dont talk more about it


Its not really that amazing, most tvs and HD STBs can upconvert to 720p or 1080i


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> 4. The lack of PPV/VOD/TTG/MRV in their HD products. Cable has PPV & VOD. Verizon has PPV, VOD, and MRV (SD only).


Well, at least TTG/MRV is going to be back in November. That should certainly have an impact on sales.


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## Joey Bagadonuts (Mar 13, 2006)

WizarDru said:


> Well, at least TTG/MRV is going to be back in November. That should certainly have an impact on sales.


That won't matter for those of us who have Time Warner as our cable provider. Now, some areas, Buffalo NY for example, are *refusing* to install cablecards in TiVo units because TiVo is seen as a "direct competitor" with TW's DVR service. Yes, you read that right. Time Warner in Buffalo refused to install cablecards in a TiVo DVR. Here is an excerpt from a recent post in the Official Time Warner Cable Thread: _"She (Time Warner CSR) put me on hold again to ask one of the head dispatchers if they would come out to install the card in the Tivo, and his response was 'Absolutely not.'. The woman also alluded to the fact that they would not support the Tivo, since 'they are competition from our DVR service'. Finally, after realizing this was never going to go anywhere, I just decided to end the call."_

So we've gone from seeing Time Warner techs coming out and not knowing how to install the cards in TiVo DVRs to Time Warner Buffalo now refusing to even send a tech out to install cards in what they see as a DVR of a direct competitor. It's no wonder TiVo lost 145,000 subscriptions last quarter. Sugarcoat or spin it anyway you'd like but when a cable company the size of Time Warner decides to muck up the system for TiVo HD owners, there is little recourse, if any, for TiVo owners other than to succumb to TW's pressure to go with their own DVR. Especially when TiVo continues to stand mute on what should be seen by them as a serious problem.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> That won't matter for those of us who have Time Warner as our cable provider. Now, some areas, Buffalo NY for example, are *refusing* to install cablecards in TiVo units because TiVo is seen as a "direct competitor" with TW's DVR service. .


No cable company can legally refuse to do that. one complaint to the FCC would end that. But it is the consumer who must stand up as they are the ones with an actionable cause to file the complaint


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> No cable company can legally refuse to do that. one complaint to the FCC would end that. But it is the consumer who must stand up as they are the ones with an actionable cause to file the complaint


Zeo is correct. You can file a complaint online with the FCC at:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cib/fcc475.cfm

see: http://www.eff.org/IP/pnp/filecomplaint.php

Additionally I would write a letter to the division of your local government with oversight of the TW cable franchise stating that you have filed the FCC complaint and why and send a copy to the local TW office and TW corporate.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Haven't seen a TWC area outright refuse an installation until now, mainly because they'll get fined. A good point is brought up, though. I'll add it to my list:

5. S3 and HD are more difficult and expensive to install than S1 and S2s were.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

WizarDru said:


> Well, at least TTG/MRV is going to be back in November. That should certainly have an impact on sales.


I'd love to see this posted on TiVo's own website. Otherwise, I'll believe it when I see it, and continue to refrain from encouraging folks from buying a TiVo in the meantime.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bicker said:


> I'd love to see this posted on TiVo's own website. Otherwise, I'll believe it when I see it, and continue to refrain from encouraging folks from buying a TiVo in the meantime.


An announcement here by TiVoPony is as good as an official announcement, IMO (he announced it yesterday in the Series 3 section).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Okay, I agree: A definitive posting from Pony is just as good.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

ccooperev said:


> One of my TIVO S2's died a painful death last week and I haven't decided what to do about it. TIVO had an interesting offer but on looking at the fine print, it was actually a lousy offer. The unit wouldn't be available for 2nd tivo pricing even after the 1 year subscription.


Buy one retail or second hand, don't accept the rebate, and you can change the TSN on your account with no further commitment or change to your account.
[/quote]
Plus with the looming Digital conversion, I'm questioning if it makes any sense to buy another analog device.[/QUOTE]
The Analog Tivos will still tune analog cable, if available, and from an STB.


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## Joey Bagadonuts (Mar 13, 2006)

MickeS said:


> An announcement here by TiVoPony is as good as an official announcement, IMO (he announced it yesterday in the Series 3 section).


I'm not disputing the validity of TiVoPony posts here but I disagree with the belief that his posts are just as good as an official announcement from TiVo. Not only do all TiVo subscribers not read this board but it'd be a pretty shoddy business practice for TiVo to rely on a chat board to keep their subscribers up to date on what's going on.

No offense meant to TiVoPony but, until I see something either on the TiVo website or in one of their informative emails, I won't believe anything until I see it.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> I'm not disputing the validity of TiVoPony posts here but I disagree with the belief that his posts are just as good as an official announcement from TiVo. Not only do all TiVo subscribers not read this board but it'd be a pretty shoddy business practice for TiVo to rely on a chat board to keep their subscribers up to date on what's going on.
> 
> No offense meant to TiVoPony but, until I see something either on the TiVo website or in one of their informative emails, I won't believe anything until I see it.


Obviously it's not a replacement for it, but based on past history, they are about equally reliable.


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## GrondramB (Sep 3, 2005)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> No offense meant to TivoPony but, until I see something either on the TiVo website or in one of their informative emails, I won't believe anything until I see it.


I also wish no offense to Bob but the previous liason, Richard Bullwinkle was the Tivo Evangelist- the very voice and face of Tivo - the person most visible and credited with building coalition with the forum.. Many things he said did not come true.

Whether he was undercut or something else happened, who knows. But there is precedent for Tivo spokesmen not being backed up by official policy.


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## GrondramB (Sep 3, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Obviously it's not a replacement for it, but based on past history, they are about equally reliable.


Hey Mickes, that was almost snarky (by definition #2) ... and funny.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I figured that one would be interpreted in different ways.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

I would think that comments on a public forum by someone posting under the title "TiVo Product Marketing" would carry the same weight as a press release through more traditional channels. Either way, if the comment is in error, then "TiVo, Inc." has spoken in error.


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## GrondramB (Sep 3, 2005)

CharlesH said:


> I would think that comments on a public forum by someone posting under the title "TiVo Product Marketing" would carry the same weight as a press release through more traditional channels. Either way, if the comment is in error, then "TiVo, Inc." has spoken in error.


When things have gone wrong to bring us to the current state with Tivo and with this forum.


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## Joey Bagadonuts (Mar 13, 2006)

CharlesH said:


> I would think that comments on a public forum by someone posting under the title "TiVo Product Marketing" would carry the same weight as a press release through more traditional channels. Either way, if the comment is in error, then "TiVo, Inc." has spoken in error.


I'm not disputing that. My point is, I happened across this forum merely by accident which means there are probably thousands and thousands of TiVo subscribers who probably don't even know this board exists. If TiVo is relying on this board to keep their subscribers up to date on what's going on, that's a pretty poor way of doing business. Especially when I am constantly inundated with what I consider to be useless TiVo stuff conveyed to me via the message area in "Now Playing" and monthly emails.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I tend to agree. TiVo really should consider the fact that, while we TCF people appreciate the information we get here, they should be posting every bit of it on their own website as well, just as soon as they make it public here.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> I tend to agree. TiVo really should consider the fact that, while we TCF people appreciate the information we get here, they should be posting every bit of it on their own website as well, just as soon as they make it public here.


I agree also however I can understand why they do not do that. I'd bet that not much gets posted on the official TiVo website without being approved by their lawyers.

An unofficial posting on a forum like this by an employee who is not an official spokesman for the company gives TiVo plausible deniability should things not work out as the poster states for whatever reason. It also avoids wider exposure of situations which the company might not want to dwell upon.

I want to make it clear that I am not implying that what TiVoPony is telling us isn't accurate or appreciated. He has a great track record of keeping us posted as best he can and I add my thanks to those of the rest of you.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

However, if TiVo employees are posting here, as TiVo employees, representing the information they're providing as being genuine because they're TiVo employees, the lawyers wouldn't care what website the information was posted on, theirs or others'. The "Unofficial" dodge only works if they aren't presenting themselves as TiVo employees.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVo Pony's posts are not gold.

If Stephen posts something it comes promptly. If he says "soon" it comes real soon.

When Pony posts something, it comes, but not always so timely. He only has word on this feature from others. If a glitch is found, the November date will slip. But this will come.


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## GrondramB (Sep 3, 2005)

bicker said:


> However, if TiVo employees are posting here, as TiVo employees, representing the information they're providing as being genuine because they're TiVo employees, the lawyers wouldn't care what website the information was posted on, theirs or others'. The "Unofficial" dodge only works if they aren't presenting themselves as TiVo employees.


So you'd prefer they leave the site?


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

RoyK said:


> An unofficial posting on a forum like this by an employee who is not an official spokesman for the company gives TiVo plausible deniability should things not work out as the poster states for whatever reason.


I had the impression that TiVoPony and the other TiVo employees *are* posting in an official capacity. Thus, the very conservative, carefully worded statements, as one would see in a press release. And there are certain forbidden topics on this forum, the reason given for which is so that TiVo management will continue to support this involvement.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

GrondramB said:


> So you'd prefer they leave the site?


No! I said before...


> *they should be posting every bit of it on their own website as well, just as soon as they make it public here.*


Did message #102 not make it to you?


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

now I know why you call yourself "bicker".


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## GrondramB (Sep 3, 2005)

bicker said:


> No! I said before... Did message #102 not make it to you?


Sure it did. I just think you are demanding that so much as to make it impractical for Tivo to have a presence here.

Besides there is a link here from their web site.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I disagree. This is a high-tech company. It shouldn't be any trouble whatsoever to provide something for their "normal" customers that provides them as much information as we get. :up:


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## keviesten (Sep 11, 2007)

And perhaps this is also fallout from their ill-conceived price increase, service contracts and early termination fees.


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## keviesten (Sep 11, 2007)

I would think that comments on a public forum by someone posting under the title "TiVo Product Marketing" would carry the same weight as a press release through more traditional channels. Either way, if the comment is in error, then "TiVo, Inc." has spoken in error.


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## Joey Bagadonuts (Mar 13, 2006)

keviesten said:


> I would think that comments on a public forum by someone posting under the title "TiVo Product Marketing" would carry the same weight as a press release through more traditional channels. Either way, if the comment is in error, then "TiVo, Inc." has spoken in error.


It probably does but the thing is, those comments are only reaching a fraction of TiVo subscribers.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

keviesten said:


> And perhaps this is also fallout from their ill-conceived price increase, service contracts and early termination fees.


That assumes facts not in evidence. Unless you know TiVo's current financial situation in total, you cannot assume that their decisions were ill-conceived. You simply wouldn't know what the alternative is -- it could have been "increase prices or go out of business entirely". With that choice, I'd hope they choose "increase prices". Do keep in mind that it isn't the subscribers' company -- it's the owners' company. The decisions need to be made based on what's best for the them (the owners), capitalizing on what they can do for us (the subscribers) that we'd like but only as much as that serves the owners' best long-term interests.


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## mphtrilogy (May 29, 2007)

Tivo got me back as a paying customer.

The Cable DVRs are awful.

Saving $6 a month on the monthly nut for multi-service, I am down to $7 a month for the Tivo service. If I decide to add two cable cards when Fios comes to town, that will be $6 +7 = $13. I will also be able to enjoy my shows on the premiere Recording DVR in the biz. Hands down if you Love TV, you want a Tivo, Cable DVRs stink.

Bringing this under $300 will bring back the monthly subscribers, I know it brought me back.


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## GrondramB (Sep 3, 2005)

mphtrilogy said:


> Tivo got me back as a paying customer.
> 
> The Cable DVRs are awful.
> 
> ...


Ahh but DirecTivos with Genuine Tivo software is almost free, has duel tuners and best of all you can uplug it from the phone line so Tivo can't do stuff to it or monitor your viewing.


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## Jeshimon (Jul 9, 2007)

bicker said:


> I'd love to see this posted on TiVo's own website. Otherwise, I'll believe it when I see it...


A posting on a website is not nearly as valuable as firing up TiVo Desktop on a pc and backing recordings off the TiVo, then moving them back later. Software release dates are notorious for sliding. I am VERY new to TiVo, but I like it very much and it gives me viewing options I really appreciate.


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## Jeshimon (Jul 9, 2007)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Your post illustrates a basic problem facing TiVo. The Internet has increased the velocity of dissemination of information. Companies *must* adapt to this new reality. Or they will die.


And BAD news travels REALLY fast, good news, not quite so.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

c3 said:


> Around $15 for about 30 analog channels and 8 local HD channels. Of these, I watch 1 analog (PBS) and 5 HD channels (FOX, NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS).
> 
> There are plenty of TiVo owners (including S3s) with OTA only or limited basic. I have no idea why people would need hundreds of channels.


I have to have HD service, or I coudn't get ESPN-HD (which forces you to get digital pak as well), but other than that, every season pass I have is on either the analog tier or local HDs. I could live with extended basic if I had to (as long as the HD locals were in the clear).


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

I don't doubt this and am not surprised or upset. It looks like a resizing of their market to me. 

We've known that D* subscribers would be leaving. 

We also know that the S3 lifetime transfer caused a bunch of people to jump on an S3 (me included), but that meant we had an old S1 or S2 box that received one year of free service. After the year, it goes to a $12.95 a month fee unless you subscribe it to a commitment. I for one cancelled mine after 6 months, so I am probably counted in that loss even though I still have 3 other Tivos. Just my $.02.


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## Jeshimon (Jul 9, 2007)

GrondramB said:


> ...phone line so Tivo can't do stuff to it or monitor your viewing.


I don't mind providing information on my viewing and recording habits. If TiVo knowing what I like can affect what the networks provide me to watch, so much the better.


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "conditional transfers".
> 
> But I'm tired of reading this apologia for TiVo's incompetence. Cablelabs does not, *can not*, restrict transfers of HD recorded OTA. And yet even that does not appear in S3, a full year after its release. Neither does "TiVo to come back" aka a way to upload content to the box.


Thing is, how do you differentiate OTA HD shows from non OTA HD shows? Until CL is satisfied in how this can be done, there will be a problem. Especially if you have cablecards in your device.



Phantom Gremlin said:


> DirecTV is *far* better than TiVo from both a commitment and pricing viewpoint.
> 
> When I re-upped about 1.5 years ago I bought three additional R10 receivers at $100/ea. My current monthly cost is $6 for TiVo (once per account) plus $5/mo mirroring per receiver.
> 
> ...


Not everyone is subject to your costs...

I have RCN. All I pay is $1.50 for each cable card. That's it. I do not pay any AO/mirroring fee. I can't vouch for RCN customers in other markets though.

And for ppl who quote $800 for the S3, many ppl waited for the transfer deadline, so they paid $679 (or less - IIRC, $550 from Dell) for the unit and $200 for the transfer = less then $900 for the package.

My S2 is still on the 1 yr until next February, so I can't comment on programming fees...

For the longest time I only had 1 TiVo, so didn't do MRV only TTG, I don't do PPV or VOD...



samo said:


> There is no commitment with DirecTV if you are activating your old or used DVR. Commitment and/or cancellation penalty is for new subsidized equipment only.


What do you do when you want to watch the added channels only the new equipment will receive and when they shut off MPEG2?

You will then have to "lease" new equipment and be "locked in", just like everybody else.

We won't even get into the HD Lite issue...

I do remember, when in NJ, Service Electric wanted to charge be 2x for HBO if I wanted a second converter box (1999). I don't know if they still practice that, but that's much worse than whatever TiVo charges....



ccooperev said:


> One of my TIVO S2's died a painful death last week and I haven't decided what to do about it. TIVO had an interesting offer but on looking at the fine print, it was actually a lousy offer. The unit wouldn't be available for 2nd tivo pricing even after the 1 year subscription. Plus with the looming Digital conversion, I'm questioning if it makes any sense to buy another analog device.


As someone stated, you can buy a TiVo retail (w/o rebates) and swap it for your dead one.

Or you might just want to fix your S2 depending on what caused it's death.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

DeathRider said:


> What do you do when you want to watch the added channels only the new equipment will receive and when they shut off MPEG2?


So you think all Cable Companies will stay with mPeg2 while Sat users enjoy far better picture quality with mPeg4?

And with HD, people want better picture Quality. Thats the whole point.

SO: Cable will need to switch to fully MPeg4 eventually. And you do not believe Cable will be in the same boat as Directv is now......

Really.... the Cable Believers need to wake up.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Why do you think MPEG4 produces a better picture than MPEG2?

I thought the idea behind MPEG4 was MORE compression, not less. This is a bandwidth issue.

Al


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## hongcho (Nov 26, 2003)

acvthree said:


> Why do you think MPEG4 produces a better picture than MPEG2?
> 
> I thought the idea behind MPEG4 was MORE compression, not less. This is a bandwidth issue.
> 
> Al


It's not just "more" compression. It's about "more efficient" compression.

Hong.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Yes, but still just a matter of bandwidth.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Exactly.

Used properly MPEG4 and MPEG2 will have comparable quality.

Efficiency, in this case, is in reference to bandwidth.

Now, MPEG4 may allow a provider to not reduce bitrate as much, but it is just as likely that the additional bandwidth will be used for something else.

Al


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