# Tivo vs. Charter's Scientific Atlanta 8300HD



## johnhubert (Oct 3, 2004)

I figured I'd give my personal experience dealing with our first non-Tivo dvr, just to give you other Tivo lovers a good laugh. 

I was a DirecTivo customer for about 4 years until recently. We moved to a new area that offered a dual tuner HD dvr, so I figured I'd try it out since Directv's HD dvr option was going to require a 400 dollar investment. The DVR's are 10 dollars a month from Charter and can record 2 HD signals at once.

Pros:

Basically, the DVR functions on a basic level to record shows. We love being able to record HD stuff for only 10 bux a month. Also, the price to lease an HD unit was the same as the standard DVR but had twice the disk space, so we got a second HD unit for our standard non-HD tv in the bedroom.

Cons:

- No tick marks to advance through a show quickly
- Doesn't remember where you left off in more than one show
- Can't watch two live things at once by pausing one and switching over, it will reset the other show's buffer (no direct control of each tuner)
- biggest problem with the DVR. This DVR is NOT designed to timeshift. After verifying with Charter, the following behavior is NOT a bug in the system: When a program is currently being recorded and you go the the playlist to play it from the beginning (timeshift), it doesn't let you play from the beginning. You have to start playing from the current (live) location and rewind! (with no tickmarks  ) As if that wasn't bad enough, when the DVR is finished recording the show you get TELEPORTED to the current time! The wife experienced this for the first time watching the survivor finale, so you can guess what a fun night that was 
- Searching for a program requires you to either find it in the guide manually or search using the first letter of the program only.

There are other minor problems, but these are some of the major ones. At this point we are in a wait state for the series 3. I feel this solution is better than paying 400 dollars for an HD dvr months before the series 3 comes out, but in the meantime we miss tivo 

John


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

This must be a SARA software issue or an old Passport version as I don't have most of these problems on my SA8300HD w/Passport. I can jump by 15mins, I can time shift, it remembers more than one show stopping location. The rub with time shifting is it doesn't remember where you left off until the show stops recording. I will have to say that I must have one of the best operating HD-DVRs from a cable company since it works almost all of the time and has what I believe to be basic DVR functions. The interface is horrible, but it works.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Yes, it does sound sound like SARA ... pre 1.88.x.x



johnhubert said:


> - biggest problem with the DVR. This DVR is NOT designed to timeshift. After verifying with Charter, the following behavior is NOT a bug in the system: When a program is currently being recorded and you go the the playlist to play it from the beginning (timeshift), it doesn't let you play from the beginning. You have to start playing from the current (live) location and rewind! (with no tickmarks  ) As if that wasn't bad enough, when the DVR is finished recording the show you get TELEPORTED to the current time! The wife experienced this for the first time watching the survivor finale, so you can guess what a fun night that was


'Play From Beginning' has been added in 1.88.x.x. Also, the 'drop to live' issue has been fixed.

Untill your cable company upgrades ... when you want to watch a recording in progress I'd suggest stop / save / record / pause and then watching the two parts. Note, 'drop to live' only happens with scheduled recordings. It does not happen when you manually hit the record button.


johnhubert said:


> - Can't watch two live things at once by pausing one and switching over, it will reset the other show's buffer (no direct control of each tuner)


Anything that is being recorded you can individually control (including when you're recording two things). If I want to trick-play / control the buffer on two live shows I just hit record.


johnhubert said:


> - No tick marks to advance through a show quickly


They've also added a fourth FF / RW speed in 1.88.x.x. Not tick marks but ... better.


----------



## Tippy (Oct 12, 2004)

I must have the same Charter DVR with the older software. I have the same problems/issues. I do like the HD and DT feature but the rest sucks. 

However, using this box has convinced my wife to get the Series 3 when it comes out. She loves the HD DVR but hates the software so I'll be getting a Series 3 as soon as they roll off the assembly line.


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

Yep, no easier sale than a wife that loves the TiVo interface and also finds the cable DVR interface frustrating!


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

We had the drop to live and rewind to beginning problems for 18 months.
Adelphia updated to SARA 1.88.19.1 a few days ago.

User friendly is nice, but if we have to fork out $600-900 and also
pay say $12.95 to 16.95 a month (no lifetime any more) its a hard sell to my wife.

The SA8300 HD DVR box with DVR service is only $13.45 per month to rent.

Those 2 bugs fixed make a HUGE difference in usability.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

johnhubert said:


> Cons:
> . . .
> 
> - Searching for a program requires you to either find it in the guide manually or search using the first letter of the program only.
> ...


I have a Cablevision SA8300HD with SARA (can't tell you the version) and saw many of these problems. I now get the 4x FF/RR functionality, so I guess I've been upgraded, but the search functionality is still pretty bad. In addition to the limited search options you stated, the search-by-first-letter feature only searches for content from the current day up to however many days forward you have scrolled in the guide. In other words, if you really want to find a program, you have to scroll forward first through the next 7 days in the guide just to make sure the title will come up in the alphabetically index. If you haven't scrolled forward, the index only shows "today's" shows, so you might as well have just scroled through the guide. Very, very bad.

As others have said, the graphics on the 8300HD are a joke, especially when viewed on an HD TV. (They remind me of an old EGA PC computer game from the late 80's!)

Here are a few more problems I've noted about my 8300HD with SARA:

 The cursor doesn't scroll through the menus, instead, the menus scroll through a stationary cursor centered in the middle of the screen. This means there is no "top" or "bottom" of a menu or "now-playing list" and you can just scroll indefinitely. I realize some people may like this style of menu, but I find it very annoying.
You can't hit the "play" button on a title in the "DVR" list, but instead have to hit SELECT to list the options for the title, and then hit SELECT again while hovering over the "Play" option in the men. 
The "Guide" and "DVR" menus are deisnged for 4:3 display only, so on a 16:9 display, you end up with gutters on-screen whenever the guide or DVR list is shown. This gutter space would be better used to expand the content of the DVR and guide screens, which is woefully devoid of useful info. 
You can only get to the Guide indirectly: Go to main menu and then hit SELECT on the Guide option. 
No 30-second skip function during playback. 
There's a rudimentary equivalent of the Season Pass manager, but you can't set priorities. Upcoming titles to be recorded are listed under "Scheduled Recordings", but until this most recent updated you couldn't see titles with no upcoming recordings. (Now, they are listed with a "past" date. A little confusing, but better than not having this.) 
Like TiVo, you can tell the 8300 to keep a show for 7 or 14 days. However, unlike TiVo, the 8300 immediately deletes the show on the 7th or 14th day, regardless of how much space you have left. (TiVo will keep the show beyond the "keep until" date until it needs that space.) 

The biggest "pro" for me is the price! My condo association pays for cable, so I only have to shell out $20 a month to get the Cablevision's equipment and HD DVR service.


----------



## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

thechiz said:


> User friendly is nice, but if we have to fork out $600-900 and also
> pay say $12.95 to 16.95 a month (no lifetime any more) its a hard sell to my wife.
> 
> The SA8300 HD DVR box with DVR service is only $13.45 per month to rent.


Two things - you need to add tax/franchise fees to the $13.45 for comparasion.

Also don't know where you get $12.95 to $16.95 for Tivo - it's either or. If you pay $16.95 per month, you won't be paying $600-$900 for the box.

If you buy the box at retail, you'll pay $12.95 per month (or $6.95 if you already have a Tivo).


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

drew2k said:


> The cursor doesn't scroll through the menus, instead, the menus scroll through a stationary cursor centered in the middle of the screen. This means there is no "top" or "bottom" of a menu or "now-playing list" and you can just scroll indefinitely. I realize some people may like this style of menu, but I find it very annoying.


Try the page 'down key' to scroll through lists. On all the SARA versions I've seen ... page down will respect the end of the list. The 'up', 'down', and 'page up' keys don't ... when you use those keys the list will loop ... but 'page down' won't loop. You'll hit the end of the list and stop.


drew2k said:


> You can only get to the Guide indirectly: Go to main menu and then hit SELECT on the Guide option.


This is CableVision-specific. SARA out of the box doesn't have that initial screen when you hit guide. You hit guide and it takes you to the guide. However, CableVision has added their own ITV app ... and it comes up when you hit guide.

Does your remote have both a Guide and a Menu button? Or both the Guide and funky CableVision I/O button? Scientific Atlanta designed it so the cable company could keep Guide hard-wired to guide and deploy an ITV app (like CableVision has) that would come up when you hit Menu. Cox is playing round with similar screen down in Florida ( http://www.cox.com/support/images/digitalcable/itv/mainmenuTV.jpg ) ... but they've kept it so Guide brings up the guide and the other screen only comes up when you hit menu. Unfortunately, from what I can tell ... CableVision choose to make both buttons pull up that first screen.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

dt_dc said:


> Try the page 'down key' to scroll through lists. On all the SARA versions I've seen ... page down will respect the end of the list. The 'up', 'down', and 'page up' keys don't ... when you use those keys the list will loop ... but 'page down' won't loop. You'll hit the end of the list and stop.


Thanks - It's very much a kluge, but I'll try that to see if I like things better.



dt_dc said:


> This is CableVision-specific. SARA out of the box doesn't have that initial screen when you hit guide. You hit guide and it takes you to the guide. However, CableVision has added their own ITV app ... and it comes up when you hit guide.
> 
> Does your remote have both a Guide and a Menu button? Or both the Guide and funky CableVision I/O button? . . . Unfortunately, from what I can tell ... CableVision choose to make both buttons pull up that first screen.


You're exactly right: the Guide button and klunky/funky iO button both bring-up the ITV menu. It would be nice if consumers had a choice, but then we wouldn't see all of the PPV offers and everything else we see on the ITV main menu, and we can't have that!


----------



## johnhubert (Oct 3, 2004)

Knowing this software is probably old will give me a great point to bring up with Charter when I begin the nagging process through customer support 

If series 3 doesn't come out before the fall season starts up, I am really going to nag them to get us updated to the latest software version..

The wife is about ready to throw the thing out the window  Which makes the Tivo Series 3 a VERY easy sell!


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> Two things - you need to add tax/franchise fees to the $13.45 for comparasion.
> 
> Also don't know where you get $12.95 to $16.95 for Tivo - it's either or. If you pay $16.95 per month, you won't be paying $600-$900 for the box.
> 
> If you buy the box at retail, you'll pay $12.95 per month (or $6.95 if you already have a Tivo).


I was just guessing on expected price ranges.

Where did you get your rates from ?


----------



## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

thechiz said:


> I was just guessing on expected price ranges.
> 
> Where did you get your rates from ?


Tivo. Check the web site.

Service is $12.95 per month or $6.95 if you already have another Tivo.

$16.95 is the monthly fee for the box + service for three years. Presumably the Series 3 will follow the same pricing and have an upfront premium hardware fee if you take the box+service plan.

The MSRP hasn't been announced, though most expect it to be in the $499-$799 range, before a likely rebate of $100-$150 rebate.


----------



## aus1ander (Sep 17, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> $16.95 is the monthly fee for the box + service for three years. Presumably the Series 3 will follow the same pricing and have an upfront premium hardware fee if you take the box+service plan.


Thats a big assumption. I would not be surprised if the base monthly cost on a S3 is significantly higher than $12.95/mo.


----------



## Tippy (Oct 12, 2004)

thechiz said:


> We had the drop to live and rewind to beginning problems for 18 months.
> Adelphia updated to SARA 1.88.19.1 a few days ago.
> 
> User friendly is nice, but if we have to fork out $600-900 and also
> ...


Well, I'm hoping that since I already have two Series 2 units, one with Lifetime, I'll only have to pay $6.95 a month on the Series 3 unit plus ~ $500 - 700 for the cost of the unit. Even at $12.95 per month though, I'd still go with the Tivo, especially with the much better software and connectivity to all other Tivo units in the house (I realize I won't be able to transfer HD programs to the other units, but hopefully SD will still transfer). I only pay $5 per month for the 8300 DVR but I absolutely hate it (other than the fact that it records in HD).

So, for me, I'm definitely going with the Series 3 - I can't imagine living witout my Tivos, even compared with other DVRs (the one I have and others I've seen).

For now, any suggestions as to how to get my local Charter company to upgrade my 8300 software?


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

aus1ander said:


> Thats a big assumption. I would not be surprised if the base monthly cost on a S3 is significantly higher than $12.95/mo.


I would be since the TiVo service alone won't change, just the hardware. With zero change in service fees for a S2DT and the fact they want to be competitive in pricing it would be very surprising if the S3 service fees were higher.


----------



## cbordman (May 14, 2001)

terryfoster said:


> I would be since the TiVo service alone won't change, just the hardware. With zero change in service fees for a S2DT and the fact they want to be competitive in pricing it would be very surprising if the S3 service fees were higher.


The Tivo Service (software) will be changing.

Cablecard support
Recording digital signals


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

cbordman said:


> The Tivo Service (software) will be changing.
> 
> Cablecard support
> Recording digital signals


The on going service (which is program data and possible software enhancements) is pretty much equal across the board which is why the monthly service fee is the same for every* TiVo. Cablecard support and recording digital signals, to me, are a part of the core system and are generally not things TiVo would need to regularly manage.

Your arguements could be applied to the S2DT where its ability to record two channels at the same time and from two completely different sources (cable/sat) could have prompted a fee increase but didn't.

Competition will keep the service fee where it is.

*DirecTiVo excluded


----------



## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

aus1ander said:


> Thats a big assumption. I would not be surprised if the base monthly cost on a S3 is significantly higher than $12.95/mo.


A big assumption? Don't think so - why would they change the new pricing model so soon?

If the monthly fee changes at all, it'll go down, not up. But I'd be willing to bet it won't change at all.


----------



## cbordman (May 14, 2001)

terryfoster said:


> The on going service (which is program data and possible software enhancements) is pretty much equal across the board which is why the monthly service fee is the same for every* TiVo. Cablecard support and recording digital signals, to me, are a part of the core system and are generally not things TiVo would need to regularly manage.
> 
> Your arguements could be applied to the S2DT where its ability to record two channels at the same time and from two completely different sources (cable/sat) could have prompted a fee increase but didn't.
> 
> ...


I would argue that they did effectively raise the price with the DT by eliminating the lifetime option.

An overall fee increase will happen before, or not long after the series 3 comes out. (which won't be real soon..)


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

cbordman said:


> I would argue that they did effectively raise the price with the DT by eliminating the lifetime option.
> 
> An overall fee increase will happen before, or not long after the series 3 comes out. (which won't be real soon..)


That is an invalid arguement since lifetime was a seperate deal from the monthly service fee. True, choosing the LT option did eliminate the monthly fee, but the elimination of the LT option didn't raise the monthly service fees.

Again, to remain competitive TiVo must not raise the montly cost of their service otherwise they run the risk of pricing themselves right out of the market.


----------



## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

cbordman said:


> I would argue that they did effectively raise the price with the DT by eliminating the lifetime option.
> 
> An overall fee increase will happen before, or not long after the series 3 comes out. (which won't be real soon..)


You lose for sure on the first argument and I wouldn't be betting much on the second.

I'd love to read your reasoning on this ...


----------



## PDT816 (Aug 2, 2004)

I feel your pain!

I purchased an HDTV about 10 days ago and picked up the same DVR unit. Our cable operator must be using the old firmware as well, because the lack of ticks and time-shifting is driving me nuts.

Another big issue is that you don't seem to be able to customize your TV guide to only include the channels you actually watch. Having to scroll through countless channels that I don't get or don't care what's on them is most frustrating.


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

So, assuming our guestimates are correct.....

TiVo S3 will be several hundred dollars to purchase and if you already
have a TiVo the monthly service on the S3 might be $6.95.

That compares with the $13-14 monthly for my SA8300 HDD DVR.

With the S3, would I also need to rent 2 cable-cards from Adelphia to
record 2 QAM cable channels simultaneously ?

If so, what might the total monthly cost for the S3 now be ?


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

thechiz said:


> So, assuming our guestimates are correct.....
> 
> TiVo S3 will be several hundred dollars to purchase and if you already
> have a TiVo the monthly service on the S3 might be $6.95.
> ...


If you need to record two encrypted digital channels you will need to rent two cards so your estimated total monthly cost (assuming $2.75 for your CC) will be either:

1 card: $6.95 + $2.75 = $9.7
2 cards $6.95 + (2* $2.75) = $12.45

My HD-DVR runs $~17 per month so even two CCs will be less than my HD-DVR.


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

If you have the SA8300HD DVR with SARA 1.88.x.x firmware there
is really only one major functional gap compared with the TiVo S3.

There are many minor issues already discussed in this thread, like
the appalling one-letter search function. That's OK, I know what I want to watch.
Also, customizing program grids is no biggie for me.

I just want to record up to 2 HD programs simultaneously and watch
them time-shifted or on another day. Pretty basic stuff really.

The big remaining problem is the lack of a TiVo-like 
"Season Pass Manager" with the SA8300.
I believe the alternative PASSPORT firmware
has improved on this but still falls short of TiVo user-friendliness.

With the SA8300 with SARA you can set up a program to be recorded and
then have it recorded every week at the same time (and every day actually !).
You have to baby-sit your scheduling though, because if the start or end
time changes the next week you are very likely to miss the program.
In general, so long as you check a couple of days ahead it works fine.

It looks like the monthly charges for me would be very similar,
$12.45 compared with $13.45.

So is it really worth several hundred dollars to purchase the hardware and get "Season Pass Manager" ?
Let's face it, this is really why many people choose TiVo over other DVR's.

A couple of hundred dollars maybe... but 500, 600..... is that too much ?


----------



## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

terryfoster said:


> If you need to record two encrypted digital channels you will need to rent two cards


You don't need two cards if:

- you have an m-stream card (one card, two streams)
- you don't need to record 2 premium shows at once.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

thechiz said:


> With the S3, would I also need to rent 2 cable-cards from Adelphia to
> record 2 QAM cable channels simultaneously ?


No.. If by QAM you mean normal "broadcast" channels on the cable. Others have said that those are required to be unencrypted.. So unless you have digital cable, you won't need any cablecards at all.


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

We have digital cable service.

I think you have to for the HD channels ?

Anyhow, we also subscribe to the "Platinum Package"
and get all the possible Adelphia HD channels including
premium HBO HD, Starz HD and Showtime HD.

It looks like we would probably get 2 cable cards.


----------



## PDT816 (Aug 2, 2004)

I forgot to list my biggest concern. My cable company doesn't offer any of the local stations in HD(or digital for that matter) other than ABC, NBC, and CBS. We actually watch more HD programing for free than we do via cable. Of course, we can't actually record any of it.

So being able to record via a terrestrial antenna and other inputs is a pretty big incentive.


----------



## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

I just got an *LG LST-3510A* and hooked it up yesterday. At present there turns out to be only one digital OTA channel available directly, but, as the 3510 also has a QAM tuner, it receives all basic digital cable channels including OTA, when connected to a coax cable outlet instead of an antenna.


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

At one time we only had ABC and NBC in HD on Adelphia cable.

Then they added CBS, FOX and PBS in HD.

I don't remember ever watching anything on WB/UPN.

Just wait a few months, market forces will give you nearly all local stations.

After Adelphia added the channels they went on a marketing campaign
making fun of the satellite companies not carrying most local channels.

As longtime TiVo DVR users we couldn't even think of buying a HDTV until
a reasonably priced HD-DVR became available. Until a couple of years ago
there wasn't much HDTV to watch anyway !

The SA8300 HD DVR has worked reliably for 18 months now and with
the software upates it is getting better. Who knows, perhaps even SARA
firmware will have a better "Season Pass Manager" soon.


----------



## cbordman (May 14, 2001)

terryfoster said:


> If you need to record two encrypted digital channels you will need to rent two cards so your estimated total monthly cost (assuming $2.75 for your CC) will be either:
> 
> 1 card: $6.95 + $2.75 = $9.7
> 2 cards $6.95 + (2* $2.75) = $12.45
> ...


the cable company here charges $42 per card for "activation"


----------



## cbordman (May 14, 2001)

jfh3 said:


> I'd love to read your reasoning on this ...


i live and breath...

but seriously, just observations from tivo's history.


----------



## PDT816 (Aug 2, 2004)

Just a question.....


Why do you guys think that you would need 2 cable cards if one had two tuners?


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

PDT816 said:


> Why do you guys think that you would need 2 cable cards if one had two tuners?


CableLabs specs:
http://www.opencable.com/specifications/

Comments from Tivo:


> At present, TiVo is developing a product based on multiple single-stream CableCARDs, but without a multi-stream card, even if TiVo can get such a one-way product approved by CableLabs, it will require two single-stream cards for dual tuner functionality.
> 
> http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6517418043


Etc.

The CableCards cable companies are currently deploying are single stream cards. They can only decrypt one channel (MPEG2 transport stream) at a time. With these cards ... if you want to record two encrypted channels at a time ... you need two cards.

Of course, with one card you could record one encrypted channel and (other) unencrypted channel(s) ...

But anyway, you'd need one card for each encrypted channel you want to handle (record, watch) simultaniously.

So a dual-tuner Tivo wouldn't _need_ two cards. But ... if you want full "dual tuner" functionality ... you would.

Hopefully cable companies will start deploying the multistream cards soon. A multistream card can decrypt multiple streams at the same time ... a dual-tuner Tivo would only need one multistream card.

But, untill cable companies start to deploy them ... we're stuck with the single stream cards.

Cable companies say they expect to start deploying multistream cards "soon". But, there isn't any mandate / requirement for them to do so.


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

cbordman said:


> the cable company here charges $42 per card for "activation"


Good lord that's alot of money...and you're on TWC? Does your TWC region generally charge for equipment changes and tech visits?


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

cbordman said:


> the cable company here charges $42 per card for "activation"


Cable companies only install and allow you to rent cable cards
because they have to by law.

I heard they do not spend much on publicizing their availability
or benefits.

Why would they ?

They want you to keep renting a set-top box.

High cable-card installation fees would be part of the plan.

If they can find a way in the future to make TiVo Series 3 
less attractive they will probably do that too....

HDTV & Cable: Switched Digital, CableCARD and Series 3


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

cbordman said:


> the cable company here charges $42 per card for "activation"





terryfoster said:


> Good lord that's alot of money...and you're on TWC? Does your TWC region generally charge for equipment changes and tech visits?


That is alot.

BTW, the FCC requires the 6 big cable companies to file reports every three months on the status of CableCard installs. How many installed, whether self-install is an option, cost, etc ...


> March NCTA report to FCC, as of February 28, 2006
> http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518332453
> 
> Adelphia
> ...


If these reports don't jive with what you are experiencing ... see here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4043894&&#post4043894

It's the same preceeding (97-80).


----------



## cbordman (May 14, 2001)

$42.95 fee is documented here: 
http://www.timewarnercable.com/nc/products/cable/cablecard.html

And everyone i have talked to at Time Warner says self-installation is not an option. It must be REALLY difficult....


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

cbordman, your Time Warner Cable link was enlightening.

Even with 2 CABLEcard's in a Series 3 TiVo I would not match the full
functionality of the SA8300 HD DVR.

The Pay-Per-View, Premium on-demand or "FREE" on-demand channels
would not be available using TiVo and CableCARD's.

This is not much of a problem for me right now as I very rarely watch
films in SD-TV any more. However, I was hoping in the near future that
Adelphia would begin offering Pay-Per-View movies in HD in our area.

Even though I subscribe to their "Platinum Package" and get all locally
available HD channels I still miss a lot of movies in HD. I would guess that
only about 40-50% of films come out on HBO HD, Starz HD and Showtime HD combined. The HD movies typically appear about 6-9 months after the release
of the film on DVD.

Consequently, for about half of the films that I don't watch at the movie
theater I end up watching them on DVD.

I was hoping to sit out the expensive HD-DVD v Blu-Ray war and see 
ALL the released movies in HD through a DVR. 

It looks like TiVo Series 3 with CABLEcard's would not let me do that.


----------



## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> BTW, the FCC requires the 6 big cable companies to file reports every three months on the status of CableCard installs.


Wow - thanks for the link.

Now when Comcast tells me that they don't allow self-install, I can give them a copy of their FCC status report. 

I'm getting a Cable Card (hopefully m-stream) the day the Series 3 is officially announced.


----------



## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

thechiz said:


> Even with 2 CABLEcard's in a Series 3 TiVo I would not match the full
> functionality of the SA8300 HD DVR.
> 
> The Pay-Per-View, Premium on-demand or "FREE" on-demand channels
> would not be available using TiVo and CableCARD's.


You may want to re-phrase the first sentance - the Series 3 will have far more DVR functionality than an SA8300.

Your second statement is correct - those functions require two-way communications, which won't be available with CableCards until 2.0.

You can't record the OnDemand content with the SA8300 today, can you? If not, then you don't lose any DVR function.

Tell your cable company you want them to have the same features Comcast will have later this year - the ability to run Tivo software on the cable DVR. Then you can have OnDemand, PPV and Tivo in one box.


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> You can't record the OnDemand content with the SA8300 today, can you? If not, then you don't lose any DVR function.


With the SA8300 if you request OnDemand content you can pause it, rewind
fast forward etc. for up to 24 hours. For instance, HBO on-demand is included in Adelphia with the HBO subscription (as is HBO HD if you also subscibe to HD).
After 24 hours you can just request it again and catch up. "Recording" is not really an issue. Pausing and restarting is what it is all about. Time-shifting is not relevant since this is "on-demand" content in any case.

I still maintain there will be some real DVR functionality using an SA8300 with a digital cable service that a TiVo Series 3 with 2 CABLEcards' will not be able to match.

I readily concede that the TiVO is more user-friendly.


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> Tell your cable company you want them to have the same features Comcast will have later this year - the ability to run Tivo software on the cable DVR. Then you can have OnDemand, PPV and Tivo in one box.


Adelphia cable provides our Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD DVR box. In our area they are currently being acquired by Comcast.

I understand that Comcast Motorola HD DVR boxes with TiVo software
will be available in some Comcast areas soon. (Currently in Beta ?)

I was under the impression that this would not do me any good.
I believe the cable company equipment at the head end is completely different
for Scientific Atlanta and Motorola equipment. I can't see Comcast replacing
customers SA boxes with Motorola. It would not be just HD boxes but all
their cable box equipment in our area.

It would be nice if Comcast would also work with TiVo to put TiVo 
software on Scientific Atlanta equipment. I would have the best of both worlds.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

thechiz said:


> I can't see Comcast replacing customers SA boxes with Motorola.


If you order the TiVo service, they'd have to (since it's their equipment to begin with). Otherwise, they couldn't offer the service.


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If you order the TiVo service, they'd have to (since it's their equipment to begin with). Otherwise, they couldn't offer the service.


Will Comcast make the TiVo premium DVR service AVAILABLE in Adelphia areas
that they are acquiring ?

I don't think they have to stick to a national company policy.

Don't they have different services and fees in areas they already have now ?


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

thechiz said:


> Will Comcast make the TiVo premium DVR service AVAILABLE in Adelphia areas
> that they are acquiring ?
> 
> I don't think they have to stick to a national company policy.
> ...


My instinct says that Comcast-TiVos won't be available in areas that were acquired from Adelphia. It is true that certain digital systems are incompatible with others. Such as SARA software is incompatible on Passport networks. So, that is why I believe Comcast will have to do something special in the areas that don't run on Moto boxes to make Comcast-TiVos work.

I can say with certainty that Comcast-TiVo won't be available in all areas when first released. It will be made available as equipment is replaced/upgraded in certain divisions/markets.


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

So this is how it looks to me in comparing a Series 3 Tivo 
with 2 CableCARD's to a SA8300 HD DVR, for a HDTV cable customer:

1. After purchasing the Series 3 TiVo and paying for the installation of 
the CableCARD's the monthly charges are likely to be similar.

2. The Series 3 TiVo does things that the SA8300 does not.
The biggest feature is the vastly superior "Season Pass Manager"
and all the other TiVo user-friendly goodies.

3. The SA8300 does things that the TiVo Series 3 does not.
This includes access to on-demand and pay-per-view features
of digital cable service.

Things may change in the future...

4. Switched digital might affect the channels available using TiVo Series 3.

5. Firmware updates to the SA8300 might improve the user interface
and perhaps even improve on its attempt at "Season Pass Manager".

6. TiVo will likely add other features including its own version of
Video on demand.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

I recall from an recent bill insert (that I currently can not find) that Cablevision charges $49.95 for installation of a cable card, so I was wondering if anyone knows if they tie the installation fee to the "card" or to the "service call"? Unfortunately I couldn't find the answer on their web site.

My hope is that if I request two cards, they will only charge one service fee to install both. However, I wouldn't put it past them to really stick it to their customers and charge a $49.95 installation fee on EACH card.

Here's what I did find, though, for any Cablevision customers out there who haven't looked into Cablevision's CableCard info yet. I got a chuckle reading about the installation process - I guess Cablevision sees the task of inserting a plastic card into a slot as technically challenging! 

*Q: How do I obtain a CableCARD device?* 
Contact a Cablevision representative at:

516-364-8400 Nassau County 
631-473-8900	Suffolk County 
973-622-6150 NJ 
203-336-2225 CT 
718-617-3500 NYC​
*Q: How much does a CableCARD device cost?* 
You will be able to lease a CableCARD device for $1.25 a month. This charge is in addition to your regular monthly subscriber charges.​
*Q: How is the CableCARD device installed?* 
A qualified Service Technician will professionally install the CableCARD device into your DCR TV.​
*Q: How is the CableCARD device activated?* 
A Service Technician will activate the CableCARD upon installation.​
*Q: Will my CableCARD device work in another Digital Cable Ready TV?* 
No. After your CableCARD device is installed and initialized by a field technician, the CableCARD is "bound" with the original Digital Cable Ready device in which it was installed. In order for your CableCARD to operate properly in another Digital Cable Ready device, the CableCARD has to be professionally installed in the new device by a field technician.​
*Q: When can I receive two-way interactive services through a CableCARD device?* 
The Consumer Electronics and Cable industries have agreed in good faith to continue discussions and negotiations for developing a Two-Way Plug-and-Play agreement. These discussions are expected to continue throughout 2004. It is anticipated that a definitive agreement, once reached, will include a date for launch of the new product. Note that, even with a two-way agreement, one-way Digital Cable Ready devices will not be capable of receiving two-way interactive services without the use of a set-top box.​
*Q: What if I want two-way interactive services?* 
If you would like to receive two-way services, such as Cablevision's interactive program guides (IPG) and Video on Demand (VOD) Services, you must use a digital set top box provided by Cablevision.​
(Cablevision also needs update some of the A's to these Q's - some are a little dated!)

It also looks like if you already have a CableCard in your personal electronic device (say a TV) and want to move it to the S3, you have to call CableVision and pay for them to move it for you! What a joke! Those service fees could very quickly add up if you buy CC devices at various times throughout the year and have to pay each time for the setup ...


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

thechiz said:


> So this is how it looks to me in comparing a Series 3 Tivo
> with 2 CableCARD's to a SA8300 HD DVR, for a HDTV cable customer:
> 
> Things may change in the future...
> ...


Wouldn't this, at least in the short term, affect the 8300HD as well? If the cable cos can't deal with SDV via firmware updates, they'd have to swap all the boxes out.


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

pkscout said:


> Wouldn't this, at least in the short term, affect the 8300HD as well? If the cable cos can't deal with SDV via firmware updates, they'd have to swap all the boxes out.


Except most current STBs from cable cos handle SDV a.k.a. OnDemand.


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

terryfoster said:


> Except most current STBs from cable cos handle SDV a.k.a. OnDemand.


Ah, so SDV is already in use for OnDemand, so "standard" SDV channels, in essence, just become onDemand-ish. That makes sense to me I guess.


----------



## cbordman (May 14, 2001)

The last TWC technician that came to my house complained that installing a cable card, involved the technician obtaining the latest firmware for your particular tv, and updating the firmware.. Is that true?


----------



## cbordman (May 14, 2001)

thechiz said:


> So this is how it looks to me in comparing a Series 3 Tivo
> with 2 CableCARD's to a SA8300 HD DVR, for a HDTV cable customer:
> 
> 1. After purchasing the Series 3 TiVo and paying for the installation of
> ...


How?

Series 3 - 1 time costs
$400.00 (price of the box... WILD GUESS)
$80 cable card install

series 3 - monthly rate
12.95 a month tivo service
2.50 a month cable card rental (estimate)

8300 HD 
no up front costs
6.95 a month DVR fee

You would have to pay "digital cable" rates in both scenarios.


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

cbordman said:


> thechiz said:
> 
> 
> > 1. After purchasing the Series 3 TiVo and paying for the installation of
> ...


Your rates are entirely cable system and division specific. It is entirely possible that thechiz's cable system and division works out to be beneficial. Also, you forgot the ~$7.64 per month cable box rate that might be able to be dropped. Upfront costs vs. monthly costs pros and cons are a seperate issue since I wouldn't mind an upfront cost if I can own my equipment and use it on any cable system.

TWC-Cinci vs. S3 strictly monthly costs runs as follows

TWC-Cinci:
Box rental: $7.95
HD-DVR Fee: $9.95 
For a total of: $17.90

Series 3:
Cable Card $2.75x2
Monthly Fee: $12.95 or $6.95
Total of: $18.45 or $12.45

So, at least for TWC-Cinci, if you don't have a TiVo already the per month cost is slightly higher and you do lose the OnDemand and PPV features, but you do gain several other features. Though I would say that a $0.55 difference in monthly costs would be "roughly the same," but again this is entirely system and division specific.

Compaired to *thechiz*'s eariler quotes he would pay $5 more a month to have a S3 assuming no other TiVo subscriptions and $1 less if he already has a TiVo subscription on another box.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

cbordman said:


> The last TWC technician that came to my house complained that installing a cable card, involved the technician obtaining the latest firmware for your particular tv, and updating the firmware.. Is that true?


Depends ...

Sometimes, yes it is neccesary. Some issue has been found and the TV needs a firmware patch to fix the issue.

Sometimes, no it is not neccesary ... no issues have been found (or the TV already has the latest firmware).

And sometimes, even if it isn't neccesary, the cable company wants the technician to do it anyway just in case.


----------



## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

I posted th is review/comparison on this forum back in May of 2004. Unfortunately, given that posts older than a year are archived, and seemingly unsearchable, I couldn't link to it. So, I've cut and pasted it from another forum.

Note that this review was of the non-HD version. The software is virtually identical on both the non HD and the HD version that I use now. However, the HD version is a little snappier than the non-HD unit as I described it below. Also, I should note, the quality of the HD recordings are very good.

I'm using the Rogers SFA8300 HD in Toronto. Version 1.88 of Sara is STILL not released here even though I understand Rogers has had it for almost a year now.

So, here's my 2 year old review - and except as noted above, all of this is as true today as it was back then.

...Dale

===================

THE GOOD:

Lets start with the good. The SFA has a few (and I stress FEW) good features that a typical stand-alone TiVo does not have.

- It natively records the cable-provider's digital signals (just like DirecTiVos do)

- It can record up to 50 hours

- It can record two channels simultaneously  this was terrific!

- Unlike TiVo, you can watch a show in the upper right corner while navigating the To-do list, the now-playing LIST and while searching for, and setting up, shows to record. I found this very convenient.

- While you can navigate the program guide on TiVo while watching a live broadcast, TiVo places the show grid on-top of live broadcast shows. I much prefer the SFA approach where the show is in a box in the top corner while navigating the program guide.

- PIP. If you use and like picture in picture, this unit does it. As a died-in-the-wool PVR user, I never use PIP so I found this feature to irrelevant

- It has an undocumented free-space indicator (FSI). Through buttons on the box, you can access a screen that is the functional equivalent of a FSI. Too bad this is not documented in the manual, not available through the remote, nor easily available to the average user. Given the major recording problems listed below, ease of access to the FSI would have been extremely useful on this box.

- With TiVo, if a show (especially a Suggestion) is recording and you want it to stop recording and delete it, this takes several key strokes to accomplish. You must first stop the recording, then go back and delete it, then confirm you want the deletion. A bit of a drag. With the SFA, you can delete a recording program with one key click. This was the ONLY menu interface option element on the SFA that was superior, in my mind, to that of TiVo.

THE BAD:

OK, so much for the good, the bad is so overwhelmingly bad, that as good as the good is, the only people that could accept the SFA as a useable PVR would be those that have never experienced a TiVo.

KLUDGY AND SLOW INTERFACE: In almost every aspect of the interface it is slow and kludgy. It stutters, it pauses for no reason, it buffers commands so you often wind up passing the option you want and selecting options/shows you dont want. The fastest of the three fast forward settings is anything but fast. And rewind is just as slow.

HANDICAPPED SEARCH FUNCTIONS: As with the other non-PVR SFA boxes Ive used in the past, the search functions in the SFA box are horrible. Firstly, there is no ability to search for the full title of a show. You can only search by the first letter of a show, then you are forced to scroll-through the agonizingly slow list of shows that come up until you find the show you want to record. The more channels you subscribe to, the more hellish this is. Secondly, you cant search the entirety of the shows it has in its memory (say 7 days worth) you can only search one day at a time. So, if I wanted to search for ER, I couldnt search through all 7 days of program listings. I am forced to search one day at a time. If I want to search for ER today, I press E, scroll down through all the Es until I get to ER. So, this means, you must know the day the show is on that you are searching for. OK, fine, a pain in the butt, but OK. So, you think youd pick the date in the search box and then select E for all shows starting with E on that date. But, no, that would be too logical. You must first select E and then pick the date you want to search on. If you do it the opposite way around, you switch to todays date. It took me quite awhile to notice this gotcha! Search E then date it works. Search date then E, it doesnt work. Argh!

FAULTY SEASONS PASSES/REPEAT RECORDINGS: The SFA theoretically has Seasons Pass-type recording ability called repeat recordings (RR for short). While, not anywhere as sophisticated as TiVos Seasons Pass feature, if what it is purported to do, actually worked well, it would be a reasonably decent feature. But it doesnt. I cant even begin to explain the many ways this feature is deficient. But Ill try in the sections that follow.

UNRELIABLE SEASONS PASS/REPEAT RECORDINGS: First and foremost it was unreliable. In my 8 weeks of using this PVR, I easily lost 15 to 20 or more RR shows that it did not record  and I never knew why.

LIMITED NUMBER OF REPEATED RECORDINGS: While nothing in the manual or the interface stipulated a limit on the number of possible RRs that could be set-up, clearly there is some limit because after so many RRs were set up (Id guess around 40 or so in a week) it could not reliably accept any more. Or, worse, when it did, it would randomly knock out other Repeat Recordings. Lets say I had 40 or more RRs set up. When I entered the 41st, assuming it took which it often wouldnt, Id discover later that another unrelated RR, on a totally different day or channel, was gone. No warning, no explanation, just gone. So, I set the mysteriously deleted RR back, and another would disappear. It got to the point where I set up RRs for Monday through Friday and I would use only one-off manual recordings each weekend day to record the shows Id otherwise have wanted to be RRs. Otherwise Id get no reliability  EVER.

CONFLICTS BIZARRELY HANDLED: So, if you can record two shows at once, how could conflicts ever be a problem. Youd think there wouldnt be. But there are. Heres an example. Lets say I have the SFA set to record two RR shows every Friday at 8:00 pm  which I do. Now, one Friday I chose to record a movie at that time. Heres how TiVo would handle it. It would identify the conflict (tell you that youve already got two shows set up to record and you cant record three  then it would ask you which two to record). OK, all good so far, thats exactly what the SFA does. But, with TiVo, if you asked it to record the one-off movie and only one of the two conflicts, next week, the show which you asked to skip this week would be back and faithfully recorded. NOT SO with the SFA. That would be too logical. If you ask it to record the movie instead of one of the conflicting RRs it totally knocks out the conflicting RR for all time!!! Gone, forever. It doesnt just skip that particular conflicting episode, it knocks out the Seasons Pass forever. Lovely!

INCREDIBLY DUMB SHOW RETENTION SYSTEM: On TiVo, when you set up a Seasons Pass or one-off show, it gives you several logical saving options: save until I delete; save for a minimum number of days; keep it until space is required etc. Pretty smart. Youd think the SFA would give comparable options. No siree. You have two incredibly STUPID options. You can: (i) keep for X number of days; OR (ii) keep until you delete. Thats it! And those are the only two options. So, heres the upshot.

Option 1 (X Number of Days): If you choose shows to be retained for X number of days (say 7) you could have a half-full SFA box and when those 7 days are up, the shows are deleted. It doesnt matter that you had a half empty PVR, that there is no need to delete the show to make room for other shows - they just get deleted. And, because the recorded shows in the LIST show up in the ridiculous slot-machine interface (see below), you have little indication which are the new shows and which are the old. You have no indication that the shows are about to be deleted. You could have only TWO shows on the PVR, it could be 80% empty but if the 7 days are up, unless you realize the shows are about to be deleted and you intervene, your shows will be erased! If there was even some way to know your shows are about to be deleted like the exclamation points on TiVos Now Playing screen, this wouldnt be a complete disaster. But there are no indicators at all!!

Option 2 (Save Forever): If you dont want the risk of shows expiring in 7 days for no particular reason other than that is what the egg-head SFA software developers decided, you can set all your shows to save forever. Great  except you find your hard drive gets full very quickly this way. Does the SFA PVR tell you your drive is full, or getting full  NO!!! Does it warn you that pending shows will not record because your hard drive is full  NO!! Well, yes it does, if you scroll through the To Do list, a teeny-weenie, tiny red will not record indicator shows up if you look REALLY hard. But for TiVo users like me who NEVER go into the To Do list (because TiVo is so good you never have to) there is no general warning that shows will not record on the LIST (the SFAs equivalent of Now Playing) or anywhere else in the interface. You must go hunting, and on a regular basis if you use option 2, to constantly monitor whether your shows are not going to record because your system is full.

Of course, the GLARING defect in this system is that there is NO save until space is needed option. The option that almost every show on a TiVo is set to.

NO KEEP ONLY 1: On repeat recordings, your minimum option is to keep only 2 or more. I record shows like BBC News which come on many times a day. All I want is the latest version. On TiVo I select Keep only 1. On the SFA, the minimum I could keep was 2. And it was never clear to me that it kept the most recent 2 in time. I have a strong suspicion (though I didnt fully test it) that the two it kept were the first two it ever recorded  so you couldnt set it up to keep only the latest two. Someone please correct me if Im wrong on this point.

NO 28 DAY RULE  NO FIRST RUN OPTION: The SFA has no 28 day rule or first-run option. If you ask for a RR of any show, you get every episode of that show, reruns, repeats etc. broadcast on that channel 24/7  PERIOD!

NO ABILITY TO DELETE REPEAT RRs FROM TO-DO LIST: Now, the no 28 day rule and no first-run option is frustrating enough, but if you go into the SFAs To-Do list and delete ANY of the extra repeat recordings of a show before they record, you wipe out the entire Repeat Recording (or RR  the SFAs equivalent to the Seasons Pass). So, you are stuck with the PVR recording EVERY single one of them. You either get them all, or none. The only way around this is to set up manual repeat recordings (MRR). An MRR works much like a TiVo manual recording. Set it up to record channel X between time Y and Z each day, week, etc. This would actually be a reasonable work-around if the limitation on repeat recordings problem that I discussed above did not exist. Because some 70% of all shows I have set up to record are MRRs (owing to lack of the 28 day rule, no first run option and inability to delete repeat RRs from the To-Do list), I quickly ran into the ceiling of the number of RRs, of any type, the box could reliably record.

SLOT MACHINE-STYLE LIST VS. NOW PLAYING: TiVo presents all recorded shows nicely in the Now Playing menu. Nicely presented in first-in, first-out order. The SFAs equivalent to Now Playing is called the LIST. You press LIST on the remote and what do you see? You see a slot machine type interface. Think of a slot machine where you pull the handle and the wheels spin and cherries, oranges etc. show up on a circular drum wheel. Thats the kind of interface you get from the LIST. It is actually in first-in, first out order (if you select that option) but you never quite know where in the LIST you are at any time. I could make no sense of the logic used in the presentation of the shows. Sometimes you ended up with the most recently recorded showing. Sometimes youd end up a with shows recorded a week or two ago. You can spin that wheel up or down but it would make so much more sense if, like TiVo, you see the most recently recorded shows on the top and then you could spin the show wheel downwards to get the older stuff. Its very much like a slot machine, pull the leaver (press the LIST button) and you randomly show up at some point in the wheel of previously recorded shows.

LIST VS TO-DO LIST: The LIST also allows you to view upcoming recordings. Presumably here they are trying to replicate the TiVo To-Do list. But, once again, you are randomly placed within the rotating wheel of upcoming shows to be recorded. You can cycle backwards and forwards through the list to see what it is set up to record. But, interestingly, in almost every case there are shows set up to record on dates that are in the past. On many, many occasions, I had 5, 10 or 15 shows in the to record screen for dates in the past. Despite this, the SFA never did teleport me back in time to record any of those shows!

FAT AND OFTEN INCOMPLETE LOCATION BAR: TiVo has a sleek green TiVo position bar that you can easily get rid of by pressing Clear. The SFA, on the other hand, has a big fat bar that covers up about 20% of the bottom of the screen every time you fast forward, rewind, pause or go in slow-mo. Indeed, many times Ive wanted to pause to look at something, get a phone number, read the CNN scrolly bar or what-have-you and the fat blue SF bar covers up exactly what I want to see  and you cant get rid of it! [May 2006 Note: You can get rid of it by pressing the Exit button]. Also, if you record a long show (like tennis, golf, etc. the location bar does NOT indicate the entire length of the show. So, as the indicator slides to the right, you think it is pointing to the end of the show, but it isn't. It wil jump to the right half of the indication bar. Bottom line, for long recordings you never know exactly where you are in the recording during play back.

NOT SO - INSTANT REPLAY: The SFA has a much touted Instant Replay button just like TiVo. Well it is NOT just like TiVo. Its kludgy and certainly not Instant. With TiVo you can press it multiple times to quickly jump back in time in 8 second increments. On the SFA, the first time you press it, it sits and thinks for a few seconds before acting. And when you press it multiple times, it almost seems to panic not knowing what to do. If you sit there for 15 or 20 seconds it will slowly catch on and jump you back  but, when you are used to the TiVos instant replay, it is truly painful to experience.

WHEN STARTING A CURRENTLY RECORDING SHOW, SFA BOX STARTS AT LIVE POINT: Of ALL the problems I had with the SFA, this, combined with the next problem, was THE most frustrating part of the SFA for me. If a TiVo box is, say, 45 minutes into recording a live show, and you press play, TiVo logically starts you at the starting point of the recording show. Not so with the SFA box! That would be too logical. No, the SFA box assumes you want to start watching the show from wherever it happens to be in real time. So, after pressing play, it jumps you right to the live part of the show it is recording. Whether you like it or not! Of course, there is no ability to instantly jump to the beginning of the show. You must rewind through its agonizingly slow rewind process, watching all the things you dont want to see to spoil it.

SFA UNCEREMONIOUSLY POPS YOU OUT AT END OF LIVE RECORDING: Now, imagine you actually started watching the currently recording show, you dutifully, rewound it to the beginning through the agonizingly slow rewind function, keeping your eyes closed so as not to see what is coming up, and you get comfortable watching the beginning of a show that is currently recording. Then the show finishes recording. Youd logically and rationally expect the PVR to keep playing. But, no, this is NOT what the designers of the SFA box thought youd want. If a show finishes recording while you are watching the beginning, it unceremoniously pops you out to the LIST of recorded shows. No warning, just bang, you are outta there. And guess what, you have to find the show in the LIST (spin the drum up and down), start it up, and now fast forward through, at the agonizingly slow speed of the skip-to-tickless interface, to find the spot you were kicked out of. Gotta love these interface designers!

NO SHOW-TO-SHOW POSITIONAL MEMORY: When you partially watch a show on TiVo, and you stop because you are interested in watching another show, when you come back to the previously viewed show, TiVo remembers where you left off and starts up from where you left of. Not so with the SFA PVR. With the SFA box, when you next return to a previously, partially viewed show, you must start from the beginning  again. And, again, the SFA does NOT remember where you left off the last time. You must again fast forward through, at the agonizingly slow speed of the skip-to-tickless interface, to find the spot you were left up to start it up again. There is one exception to this. If you leave a show and return immediately to it, without having watched any other PVRd show, it will remember where you left off.

NO SKIP TO TICK: The fast forward and rewind functions of the SFA box are much slower than TiVo. And, with no skip to tick, moving around anything other than the shortest of shows is torturously slow compared to a TiVo. This is a particularly acute problem when you combine it with the fact that the SFA box does not remember where you left off the last time you viewed a show and you have to fast forward, every time you come back to a show to find the place where you last left off.

NO INPUT SELECT: There is no input select like there is on the newer TiVo peanuts.

TV POWER ON/OFF A PAIN: The TiVo has a button set up just for turning the TV on or off. While you can turn the TV off with the SFAs remote, you constantly have to switch between remote modes (ie: control the PVR or VCR or TV). If you switch to Control the TV to just turn it off or on, you cant control the PVR until you switch back to PVR mode. Given that I NEVER shut off the PVR but I turn the TV on and off several times a day, this seems like a very silly control set up.

ATTENTION SCREEN: Like TiVo, when the channel is about to be changed for a pending recording, you get a warning screen to that effect. Unlike TiVo, the SFAs warning screen is HUGE and you CANT delete it. It stays up for its full 60 seconds or however long the preprogrammed warning interval is. Again, another terrific design idea by the SFA developers. They must think we enjoy waiting for a minute each time before we can go on watching our shows unimpeded.


----------



## cbordman (May 14, 2001)

terryfoster said:


> Your rates are entirely cable system and division specific. It
> 
> .


true.. I don't think there's any way around here to get digital cable service without paying for the 1st box rental. The digital cable rate includes 1 cable box, and that's the only option there is.


----------



## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

cbordman said:


> true.. I don't think there's any way around here to get digital cable service without paying for the 1st box rental. The digital cable rate includes 1 cable box, and that's the only option there is.


I have looked over the pricing available to you and there are ala carte options that should allow you to get digital cable w/o paying for a box, but it may not work in practice. That's the reasoning behind why I said it might be able to be dropped. This would be a good discussion to have with your local CSR and/or the CSR's supervisor when it comes time to return your box and get CableCards or when you are researching what your monthly costs might be. It is entirely possible that you would end up having to pay more for your digital service, but no more than what you currently pay for service and rental bundled. This could be true since you're unbundling service, but again I am only speculating from the pricing sheet (the same sheet that makes no mention to cable card fees, so interpret that how you wish).

I did forget to mention the remote @ $0.31 which brings the total rental to $7.95 for box and remote which matches the Cinci rate for box rental.

http://www.twcnc.com/template/rates/2006/cary.cfm


----------



## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

Dajad said:


> I'm using the Rogers SFA8300 HD in Toronto. Version 1.88 of Sara is STILL not released here even though I understand Rogers has had it for almost a year now.
> 
> So, here's my 2 year old review - and except as noted above, all of this is as true today as it was back then.
> 
> OK, so much for the good, the bad is so overwhelmingly bad, that as good as the good is, the only people that could accept the SFA as a useable PVR would be those that have never experienced a TiVo.


It is unfortunate that you do not have version 1.88 of SARA.
I understand that right now for you things may not have changed much.

As discussed previously in this thread, many of the more serious
flaws of the SA8300 have now been fixed. In addition to those mentioned 
before I would add:

With the new firmware I do not find the interface to be particularly kludgy and slow. Eighteen months ago that was the case with many crashes, reboots and
lockups especially when using FF/REWIND keys. I got to see the 
"purple screen of death" a lot !

There is now a fourth FF/REWIND speed of x128 compared to the previous
third speed of x30. A one-hour show takes about 30 seconds to scan now.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have used a TiVo Series 2 for 3 1/2 years now. I have a broadband connection
and use Galleon for music and photos. I have used the SA8300 for 18 months
now to record HD programs. I readily agree that TiVo has many more 
user-friendly features. However, I do find the SA8300 to be a useable DVR.


----------



## puckettcg (Feb 10, 2006)

Well, I must still have the earlier software version, because everything described is exactly my experience with my Comcast SA8300. But, add to that, the thing cuts itself off daily - every morning before I leave for work or as soon as I get home, I dutifully turn it back on. Fortunately, my TIVO is my backup, and I only record HD shows on the cable DVR. I doubt many people will pluck down the estimated $500/$800 for the TIVO S3, but I'll be one of the first in line.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

puckettcg said:


> every morning before I leave for work or as soon as I get home, I dutifully turn it back on


Um, why (just asking)?

If you've got it hooked up to a Tivo via IR blaster ... and want to make sure it's on for Tivo ... there's an 'On With Channel Change' option that serves the purpose. When the Tivo sends a channel change, the box will turn on and tune to the requested channel. Also works after a power outage.


----------



## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

puckettcg said:


> Well, I must still have the earlier software version, because everything described is exactly my experience with my Comcast SA8300. But, add to that, the thing cuts itself off daily - every morning before I leave for work or as soon as I get home, I dutifully turn it back on. Fortunately, my TIVO is my backup, and I only record HD shows on the cable DVR. I doubt many people will pluck down the estimated $500/$800 for the TIVO S3, but I'll be one of the first in line.


puckettcg:

It took me awhile to figure this out but there is an option in one of the menus for the PVR to turn it self on automatically each morning (this is only necessary because the unit shuts itseslf off each night and there is no way to stop this). So I have it set to turn on every morning at 7:00 a.m (in order for it to work properly with my Harmony remote). However, until you change the channel or do something with it, the 1 hour buffer does not activate.

In addition to the problems I identified above, there are a legion of other subtle problems, including shows that haven't expired just up and vanishing. Long shows like the Oscars and the Superbowl just stopping recording when you chop them up into smaller recording pieces (ie: devide the recording in two pieces so you can delete the first part while watching the second part - I do this because of the whole pop-out problem and inability to start a show that is recording at the beginning without the painfully slow rewind showing you all the things you DON'T want to see).

One of the worst is probably a data issue. If the title of the show changes week to week (as it often does with Rogers data source) the show's won't reliably record.

Anyway, I absolutely MUST use my two analogue TiVos as a backup to this device because it cannot be relied on. I loose about 20-25% of all shows recorded on the SFA8300 for one reason or anohter.

If interested, here Digital Home Canada's forum on the SFA8300 HD:

http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=61

...Dale


----------

