# Can't record more than 90 minutes of NHL Center Ice Games



## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

I recently purchased a TiVO HD and also purchased the NHL Center Ice season package through Comcast, my digital cable provider. Since the beginning of this season I have been restricted to only recording up to 90 minutes of any NHL Center Ice channel, which is ridiculous because a game runs around 2 and a half hours. I've never had any type of restriction like this in my previous years when purchasing this NHL package and having it with a Comcast DVR and also with an old ReplayTV 5506. I've called both Comcast and InDemand (who Comcast get the package through) and both have said they have no restrictions on the broadcasts. I've called TiVO now three times, the last of which I made it up to level 3 support and was told I should call the NHL because they might be restricting it. I have a hard time believing this as I have yet to find anyone who isn't on a TiVO HD that is having any kind of trouble with this restriction. Eventually after arguing with the level 3 support tech for close to 30 minutes I was told to look at the diagnostic tools when an NHL game is on and to see what the CII bit is showing as well as the signal strength. If the CII bit is greater than 0x00 then it's the broadcast providing the restriction and not TiVO.

Right now I'm trying to figure out if this is indeed a restriction being sent through the broadcasts or if it's the TiVO HD wrongly flagging these channels with the highest level of restriction (which apparently it will do by default if the signal is poor enough to not send the encryption certificate). I have a friend with the exact setup as me and he's having the same problem. Has anyone come across this issue with NHL Center Ice or any other sports season package? It's absolutely absurd that I would only be able to record 90 minutes of a game. 

Even an editor at the NY Times posted on his blog about this issue, which I'd paste the link, but it won't let me post due to some restriction in this forum so I'll just paste the text of it.

The Broadcast Flag Rears its Ugly Head

From a reader:

David, I know you are big fan of the TiVo series 3, but there is an ominous thing about it that is currently making my life miserable. Thats the copy-protection scheme built into the CableCard standard.

For almost everyone, its a non-issue, as copy protection seems to be mercifully absent from almost all programming, particularly after the broadcast flag proposal was stopped by Congress.

However, for some reason, the NHL (of all people) has flagged their NHL Center Ice subscription service with a flag that means that Copying is prohibited  These programs can be recorded to a TiVo DVR, but only for a 90 minute window, after which they can no longer be accessed or viewed. (This wording is from the TiVO support page on copy protection.)

This means that I can only watch a game live, and by the time you reach the third period, the first period is no longer watch-able. So much for my legal right to time-shift.

No reply from the NHL or inDemand. TiVO and the Cable companies just throw up their hands and blame the copyright holder.

Pogue note: I was just about to respond, Well, unfortunately, this is the bargain that the high-definition DVR makers were required to strike with the cable companies  to honor the presence of this sort of flag  so all DVR makers are in the same boat  when I read on:

Even more annoying is that this copy protection only affects the customers using this type of hardware. Last year I had the cable company HD DVR that didnt use a CableCard, and had no problems.

I know not many people have a TiVO Series 3 or a TiVO HD, and probably only a tiny subset of those people are interested in hockey, but as a portent of the future of Digital Rights Management, its potential abuse that I thought might be of interest to your readers.

Youre right, reader. Thanks for making us all depressed!


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

forgie716 said:


> I recently purchased a TiVO HD and also purchased the NHL Center Ice season package through Comcast, my digital cable provider. Since the beginning of this season I have been restricted to only recording up to 90 minutes of any NHL Center Ice channel,


Working fine here for me! I think it's a Comcast error. 0x02 on the CI channels, same as HBO and SHO.


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

pl1 said:


> Working fine here for me! I think it's a Comcast error. 0x02 on the CI channels, same as HBO and SHO.


What type of restriction do you get with the 0x02? I get 0x03 for NHL CI (dont have HBO or SHO) and I get the 90 minute restriction. What cable provider do you have?

Thanks!


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

Count yourselves lucky to even be able to watch CI. I'm in a battle with my cable company currently and have escalated to Tivo so they can have one of their legal folks call Cox and enable the package for me. Cox is telling me "Cablecard devices cannot receive any PPV".

Sooo frustrating.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

forgie716 said:


> What type of restriction do you get with the 0x02? I get 0x03 for NHL CI (dont have HBO or SHO) and I get the 90 minute restriction. What cable provider do you have?Thanks!


Comcast/ne - Like I said, it is the cableco who has made the error. They determine the restriction value. I did a search to come up with the values. And 0X03 is good for PPV and 90 minutes until delete.


```
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/archive/index.php/t-326444.html

Copy Control Information (CCI) flag can be embedded in an mpeg2 transport stream descriptor which defines the copy rights for that content. The CCI flag consists of 2 bits whose meanings are as follows:

BINARY
HEX
DECIMAL
MEANING

00
0x00
0
Copy Freely - No authentication or encryption required.

01
0x01
1
Copy No More

10
0x02
2
Copy Once - After 1 copy made the content is then marked with CCI of 01 (Copy No More) or 11 (Copy Never)

11
0x03
3
Copy Never - Only fully authorized devices may decode

ajwees41

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/archive/index.php/t-321949.html

moyekj10-16-2006, 12:59 AM
OK, more information on this...

* I found a VOD channel currently playing something (there are 80 VOD channels available so it's not too hard to find one with something playing).
* I checked and confirmed CCI=0x03 and recorded a 2-minute sample.
* Saw in Now Playing List the flashing red flag indicating it will be deleted in 90 mins.
* Switched same tuner to unencrypted channel (FOXHD)
* Verified CCI=3 in CC Conditional Access screen (info from the VOD channel)
* Recorded 2 minute segment of FOXHD
* Verified that Now Playing list did not have the 90-minute restriction on it.

So this makes me feel good that the Tivo S3 seems to be properly honoring the CCI flags and not erroneously assigning wrong CCI number to unencrypted channels.
```


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

BrianAZ said:


> Count yourselves lucky to even be able to watch CI. I'm in a battle with my cable company currently and have escalated to Tivo so they can have one of their legal folks call Cox and enable the package for me. Cox is telling me "Cablecard devices cannot receive any PPV".Sooo frustrating.


There is hope on the horizon. We might be seeing a VOD/SDV dongle. If that happens, there should be no more excuses, except that they are out of them or something.


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

Well I finally got around to calling Comcast and explaining the situation and all the time I had already spent on the phone with TiVo and InDemand. They decided to send out a repair technician who wasn't familiar much with TiVo and called his buddy also who worked with Comcast to take a look. They continued to say that Comcast holds no restrictions and you either get the channel or you don't. Not accepting that answer they played around in the TiVo menu trying to find a setting that was wrongly set and they didn't find one. They called their dispatch to confirm the two CableCARDS were configured correctly and they were. Finally they asked if I'd be willing to try one of their DVR's to see if I had the same problem with it for NHL CI and I agreed to try it. After about 20 minutes of one of the techs on the phone he came back and said in order to get the Comcast DVR free of charge to troubleshoot with they'd have to set up a test account at my address so it didn't impact my actual billing account. I agreed to this on the condition that when they bring the Comcast DVR it's one of the new ones with CableCARDS in it (as I suspect this is some snag with Comcast and how they're providing programming through their CableCARDS). Apparently this is going to take a week before they come, and at this point I'm really not optimistic. Currently we're using the TivoHD to record everything on our main TV and then I have an old deactivated ReplayTV upstairs that appears to let me still set manual recordings to record hockey games and not have them deleted in 90 minutes. The repair tech said that they have a very limited supply of DVR's with CableCARDS so I'm wondering if that's why I'm the first case they've heard of complaining of this issue.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Hi there,

We'd really like to get your contact information so that we can help track down this issue and resolve it for you. Would you send me a private message please? Thanks!

Pony


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

if they have CCI set to 0x03 then the program will self destruct after 90 minutes per the cablecard aggrements that tivo must abide by. (It should let you keep a rolling 90 minutes so as long as you start watching the game within 90 minutes of start it will let you finish the whole thing- for example if the game starts at 7 and you flip it on at 8 you can start at the beginning and keep watching the whole way thorough. If at 9pm you try to rewind though it will stop 90 minutes into the past at 7:30 in the recording and just give you a blank screen)

There's nothing tivo can do to change it. 

the cable company needs to relax with the CCI bits. I had a problem when the S3 first came out and I was one of the first to get cablecard at my head end. They mistakenly had some channels set to 0x03- so I saw the exact behavior. They since changed it to 0x02 and now I'm all set (except as expected to comply with the cablecard rules no MRV is allowed for those).

The laws say that 0x03 is only allowed for VOD and PPV. So the 64,000 dollar question is does the FCC consider center ice to be vod or PPV.

Search on my name for a thread about Patriot media. Some kind people were nice enough to aim me to all the relevant regulations when I had the problem. Once you have the citations write an email to you cable company letting them know 0x03 is set on center ice and per the reg xx cfr yyyy.zz you beleive they are breaking the law. They will respond as soon as you drop that bomb I'm sure. If they believe Center Ice is ppv/vod according to FCC regulations then they will probably tell you its legal and get over it but if not they will likely correct it shortly.

BTW- the fun part is the non-cablecard integrated DVR's that the cable company leases CERTAINLY are NOT effected by the issue. I'm not sure how their cablecard models fare. But since they are not approved by cablelabs it's likely they can ignore the cablecard reqs that require this in their proprietary rental dvr's even with cablecards.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> Hi there,
> 
> We'd really like to get your contact information so that we can help track down this issue and resolve it for you. Would you send me a private message please? Thanks!
> 
> Pony


Sounds like the Pony knows who to call directly once you tell him your location.....

The cavalry comes to the rescue. Anyone else find it funny that Pony is the Cavalry? 

Isn't the cavalry supposed to ride the pony's?


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> BTW- the fun part is the non-cablecard integrated DVR's that the cable company leases CERTAINLY are NOT effected by the issue. I'm not sure how their cablecard models fare. But since they are not approved by cablelabs it's likely they can ignore the cablecard reqs that require this in their proprietary rental dvr's even with cablecards.


But if their DVRs don't enforce the restriction, it seems that they are on pretty weak ground claiming that it is the content providers demanding the restriction. I can't imagine the content providers telling the cable companies that they should lock down third-party DVRs, but it is OK for them to not lock down the cable company's proprietary DVRs.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

it is NOT the content providers doing it. It is some jack___ at the headend who is setting the flags. The fact is clear that it's not the content providers in the vast majority of cases. If it WAS really the content providers certain CCI bits would be set at all digital cable headends, cable compnay DVR's would have the flags they use set, firewire outputs would be flagged on firewire cableboxes and the providers wouldn't stop at cable they would have DBS and telco tv company's set the same sort of flags.

it's just cable morons being morons.


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> Hi there,
> 
> We'd really like to get your contact information so that we can help track down this issue and resolve it for you. Would you send me a private message please? Thanks!
> 
> Pony


Well, I've sent Pony a couple private messages, but after giving the case # for the issue haven't heard back even though I've asked for follow-ups. The calvary is MIA.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'd sent the nasty email to the the provider saying they are violaiting the regulations. Say that it must be an oversight as you know they wouldn't willfully break the law. And tell them to get back to you withing X period of time so you know it's just a mistake and dont need to contact the FCC and your local franchise authority.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

here's the post/thread with the specific reqs referenced for you:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4464292&&#post4464292


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

I suggest bypassing the CSRs altogether and writing a letter (USPS not email) to the legal department at the corporate headquarters of your cable company. You should be able to find an address and the name of the VP for the legal dept on their corporate website. Present your evidence and cite the relevant regulations. You'll get an accurate response that way.


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

forgie716 said:


> Well, I've sent Pony a couple private messages, but after giving the case # for the issue haven't heard back even though I've asked for follow-ups. The calvary is MIA.


I also sent Pony a plea for help. Haven't heard back but I figure since tech support's not his primary role, he's checking in here every few days and will do what he can, when he can. In the meantime, I'm still trying to get things through via my local city government.

I may also send a letter to Cox's legal department.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

BrianAZ said:


> I may also send a letter to Cox's legal department.


Here's their address:

Cox Communications, Inc.
Law & Policy Group
1400 Lake Hearn Drive
Atlanta, GA 30319

You might even get a free month's service (I did for a different issue).


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

forgie716 said:


> Well, I've sent Pony a couple private messages, but after giving the case # for the issue haven't heard back even though I've asked for follow-ups. The calvary is MIA.


Not MIA...handed your information off to the appropriate people here, I believe they're having the conversations you're hoping they'll have. If our support team needs to contact you for more details, I know they will (they may ask to share specific details of your case, including your contact info with the parties in question).

I do apologize if you'd expected another reply from me! The issue is being worked on.

Pony


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

BrianAZ said:


> I also sent Pony a plea for help. Haven't heard back but I figure since tech support's not his primary role, he's checking in here every few days and will do what he can, when he can. In the meantime, I'm still trying to get things through via my local city government.
> 
> I may also send a letter to Cox's legal department.


Yep, you'd sent me a note, but as I recall it still isn't clear that you're describing the same situation as the OP's. In your case they're saying that the cablecards simply cannot display that channel, and you're seeing a grey screen on your TiVo DVR.

I have to admit, it's been a busy week and I have not followed up on your situation, as it is quite different than what we're trying to track down. I will forward your private message to the cablecard team and see if they can get some satisfaction for your specific situation.

Thanks!
Pony


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

myself I was lucky enough to stumple on a VP's email address and sent him the email when I had the problem. That got things fixed pretty quick.


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> Yep, you'd sent me a note, but as I recall it still isn't clear that you're describing the same situation as the OP's. In your case they're saying that the cablecards simply cannot display that channel, and you're seeing a grey screen on your TiVo DVR.
> 
> I have to admit, it's been a busy week and I have not followed up on your situation, as it is quite different than what we're trying to track down. I will forward your private message to the cablecard team and see if they can get some satisfaction for your specific situation.
> 
> ...


My situation is not the same as the OP (at least not yet, I can't tune to the channels to see the CCI ). The only similarity is that our issues both involve the NHL Center Ice package. Your description of my situation is accurate (grey screen, but I was able to watch the free preview no problem).

Really appreciate your fwd'ing my info on, thanks!


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

Saxion said:


> Here's their address:
> 
> Cox Communications, Inc.
> Law & Policy Group
> ...


Wonderful! I will draft my letter tomorrow.

Thanks


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

BrianAZ said:


> Wonderful! I will draft my letter tomorrow.


I was originally suggesting this avenue to the OP, whose issue was that the CCI was set to 0x03 for NHL Center Ice. That is a clear violation of FCC regulations and the Cox legal group is an appropriate channel to get it fixed. As to your issue, I'm not really sure why you are getting grey screens and being told you cannot receive PPV, but I'm not _sure _ Cox is breaking any laws there. I could be wrong. But I'm not sure the legal group can help you. Anyway, it couldn't hurt, right?


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

Saxion said:


> I was originally suggesting this avenue to the OP, whose issue was that the CCI was set to 0x03 for NHL Center Ice. That is a clear violation of FCC regulations and the Cox legal group is an appropriate channel to get it fixed. As to your issue, I'm not really sure why you are getting grey screens and being told you cannot receive PPV, but I'm not _sure _ Cox is breaking any laws there. I could be wrong. But I'm not sure the legal group can help you. Anyway, it couldn't hurt, right?


At this point, I'll try anything . Thx


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> Not MIA...handed your information off to the appropriate people here, I believe they're having the conversations you're hoping they'll have. If our support team needs to contact you for more details, I know they will (they may ask to share specific details of your case, including your contact info with the parties in question).
> 
> I do apologize if you'd expected another reply from me! The issue is being worked on.
> 
> Pony


Hi Pony, as you predicted I was contacted by someone in the TiVo Executive Relations team requesting my permission to contact Comcast and the NHL on my behalf today and I gave it. Crossing my fingers that this issue is now in the right hands after all the time I've spent on the phone with the different support teams from each company. Thanks again for your help.

-Brent


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

forgie716 said:


> Hi Pony, as you predicted I was contacted by someone in the TiVo Executive Relations team requesting my permission to contact Comcast and the NHL on my behalf today and I gave it. Crossing my fingers that this issue is now in the right hands after all the time I've spent on the phone with the different support teams from each company. Thanks again for your help.
> 
> -Brent


My wife received a similar call today while I was at the office (though my problem was slightly different than OPs... I can't even see Center Ice). It does seem like things are moving in the right direction. I'll report back when I hear more.

Thanks Pony!


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## bluelinex (Nov 5, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> Sounds like the Pony knows who to call directly once you tell him your location.....
> 
> The cavalry comes to the rescue. Anyone else find it funny that Pony is the Cavalry?
> 
> Isn't the cavalry supposed to ride the pony's?


 You can reply to me at [email protected] Time Warner says that it's the cable cards & they don't have a fix right now. I was able to receive the games for a week because they had a free preview & the signal was not scrambled. Once the preview was over off went the games, so it looks like it's a cable card issue.


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## Tico (Dec 10, 2002)

Does anyone have a link to the requirement that Cable Co's have to give cable card users access to PPV and PPV packages?


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Tico said:


> Does anyone have a link to the requirement that Cable Co's have to give cable card users access to PPV and PPV packages?


I don't think anybody can help you, because there is no such requirement.


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

bluelinex said:


> You can reply to me at [email protected] Time Warner says that it's the cable cards & they don't have a fix right now. I was able to receive the games for a week because they had a free preview & the signal was not scrambled. Once the preview was over off went the games, so it looks like it's a cable card issue.


Whatever it is, I sure hope it's resolved soon (I had the exact same situation as you.. after the free preview, just grey screen). I was extremely lucky to be in California on business this weekend and was able to catch the Kings amazing comeback on the local channel(5 goals in ~ 5 min in the 3rd to win over Dallas!!!). I have faith in Tivo and I'm sure the NHL would like as many people as possible to be able to watch their channels.

Will report back any further developments on my end.


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## Tico (Dec 10, 2002)

BrianAZ said:


> Whatever it is, I sure hope it's resolved soon (I had the exact same situation as you.. after the free preview, just grey screen). I was extremely lucky to be in California on business this weekend and was able to catch the Kings amazing comeback on the local channel(5 goals in ~ 5 min in the 3rd to win over Dallas!!!). I have faith in Tivo and I'm sure the NHL would like as many people as possible to be able to watch their channels.
> 
> Will report back any further developments on my end.


What are the grounds you are using with your fight? 
Is there a requirement that they have to make PPV available to CableCard subs?


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

At this point it's really just my own desire to watch hockey on my big screen and my feeling that they should not prevent me from doing that via cablecard unless there's a technical reason it cannot be done. I'm not certain if there is any mandate to allow the sports packages to be received.


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## stubz55 (Nov 21, 2007)

has there been any progress with this issue? 
i want to switch to a tivoHD?


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## jercra (Sep 1, 2007)

There is not a solution and there is likely not going to be a solution. Comcast has decided that all sports packages are CCI 0x03 or copy never. TivO, or more likely CableLabs, has decided that CCI 0x03 means that you can not even record to a DVR (unless of course that DVR is provided by your cable co in which case it is not required to adhere to any copy protection rules). Motorola, who runs HITS/NAS/NASRAC has also made this decision. I have been down this path with Comcast in Portland, Or with the MLB EI package. DirecTV or a Cable Co provided box seems to be the only recourse. I have suggested that TiVo change their "interpetation" of the copy never flag to mean "copy never beyond this copy" but I don't really think there is much TiVo can do.


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

Seems that the only potential option would be for the NHL to require cable co's to set it as CCI 0x02 universally. From what I've read, the content owners can make these types of special requests? I think that's what Tivo (see TiVoPony's post) is attempting to do for the OP.


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## stubz55 (Nov 21, 2007)

so it still has the recording restrictions?


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

Depends completely on your cable company. Cox-Phoenix has these set as 0x02 (which means no problem recording the games) *but* they are even more lame in that they consider PPV sports packages "interactive" and refused to activate them for cablecard folks even though you don't need 2-way communication to view, only to order with your remote.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

jercra said:


> There is not a solution and there is likely not going to be a solution. Comcast has decided that all sports packages are CCI 0x03 or copy never..


I've got Comcast. Works fine for two of us in two states, Mass and NH.


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## stubz55 (Nov 21, 2007)

mines cox OKC and i hoping i can hold the tech hostage till it works, i currently have their HD DVR with NHL CI so im hoping it will transfer smoothly!

doubtful...


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

stubz55 said:


> mines cox OKC and i hoping i can hold the tech hostage till it works, i currently have their HD DVR with NHL CI so im hoping it will transfer smoothly!
> 
> doubtful...


Please keep me posted. I just fired off an email to two of our local Cox VPs. No idea if they'll respond yet but it would sure bolster my arguement if I can tell them that it works fine in another Cox market.

When is your appointment?


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## stubz55 (Nov 21, 2007)

wed 28th


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## jercra (Sep 1, 2007)

pl1 said:


> I've got Comcast. Works fine for two of us in two states, Mass and NH.


I wasn't clear, sorry. Any cable company that is not on NAS/NASRAC can choose to set this up however they want. Each channel is configurable (in the DAC on a Moto system and the DNCS on an SA system) but once they have made that choice it is virtually impossible to get it changed in my experience. As a general rule, Comcast systems set these channels up based on Motorola's guidelines and those guidelines say that these are PPV channels and thus CCI 0x03. There are exceptions like Comcast Boston.


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## stubz55 (Nov 21, 2007)

no nhl service with tivohd in OKC, looks like im taking this back


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

stubz55 said:


> has there been any progress with this issue?
> i want to switch to a tivoHD?


I'm still having the original issue. 3 weeks ago I was contacted by Abigail from the "TiVo Executive Relations Team" who requested my permission to speak to Comcast - Portland Tuality Region (my provider) and the NHL on my behalf. I gave my blessing and a week later asked for an update and while she was reluctant at first, finally told me that they had contacted Comcast who claimed it wasn't there problem and gave reason to think it was the NHL who was the culprit so TiVo was following up with them. I sent Abigail and email both last Wednesday and yesterday asking for an update for this since it has been 2 weeks when I last received an update. I've told her that my next choice is to include the FCC, but she asked that I not do that until TiVo has worked the issue. Hard to say if any work is being done at this point.

In the meantime it's now going into the 3rd month of the NHL season and I've missed out on a ton of games that I haven't been able to record and watch because of this. The main reason I even bought this TiVo was FOR these hockey games, so I've now gone out and bought a used ReplayTV for cheap off Ebay. If this issue isn't resolved soon I plan to put my TiVoHD up on Ebay to get rid of this headache.

-Brent


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## BrianAZ (Aug 13, 2007)

stubz55 said:


> has there been any progress with this issue?
> i want to switch to a tivoHD?


My problem is that I cannot even view the games @ all. Cox claims it won't work (but it worked during the free preview). Abigail from Tivo is working on it for me as well. She called yesterday to say it's still in process. In parallel, I sent a note to the local VPs @ Cox Phoenix and here's what they say:



Cox Sr. Customer Relations Specialist said:


> Thank you for your recent email to Steve Rizley and Ivan Johnson regarding PPV and Cable Cards. We appreciate the time you have taken to write to us, and we are glad to answer your questions. We sincerely regret that you felt it necessary to contact our General Manager and Vice President regarding your account concerns. Our Customer Service Department is fully trained to assist our customers, so we apologize that you do not feel that you were given the service that you expect and deserve.
> 
> Your email details the time and frustration that you have experienced in your pursuit to activate the NHL Center Ice package with your TIVO, Cable Card, and Cox services. Your concerns were brought to the attention of David Meiners, Manager of Cox Video, MTC, and Interactive services, and he has reviewed your account in detail. In response to your questions on PPV availability, David has confirmed that we do not offer PPV or PPV sports packages to Cable Card customers. Although a Digital Cable Ready (DCR) TV/ host or device does allow the option of the equipment to become addressable, like a receiver, it does not support two-way interactivity. This lack of support will prohibit the use of PPV, as well as the interactive channel guide. Our records indicate that the NHL Center Ice package was ordered on your account on October27, 2007, and the total cost of the package is $149.00, and the charges are billed to your account in approximate increments of $39.00. PPV programming can only be viewed on your Explorer 2200 box, serial # XXXXXXXX. Your other televisions with Cable Cards will not support the programming.


:down:

So I don't know how much luck Abigail will have. Seems like I may just be fighting a losing battle against _the man_. I sent them a note back asking why it could work during the free preview but not now. I'll let you all know what they say.


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## rlawson4 (Nov 28, 2007)

I have Comcast and finally got my 2 S-Cards today. NHL Centerice worked tonight after I called Comcast and they sent a signal to the cards. It took about 10 minutes to get going.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

rlawson4 said:


> I have Comcast and finally got my 2 S-Cards today. NHL Centerice worked tonight after I called Comcast and they sent a signal to the cards. It took about 10 minutes to get going.


It's amazing how clueless some of these cablecos are who don't realize that this is the same as activating HBO or SHO. I feel bad for the people who want to purchase it only to be told they can't.


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

I noticed I hadn't mentioned this in this forum, but here is something that adds insult to injury. All of NHL Center Ice games are flagged with the 0x03 byte for me, which limits playback to only up to 90 minutes from the current time you try to watch it. However, even if I try to watch a piece of the recording which is no older than 90 minutes it just freezes on my TiVoHD and shows me a still image with some brief audio which eventually dies. Basically if a game starts at 4:30pm and I go to watch the recording at 6:30, I can not only see none of the original 90 minutes (from 4:30pm to 6pm), but then for the other 30 minutes it just freezes with still images and brief audio. It will let me fast forward, but it just gives me a new still image. This basically means that if I don't start watching the recording before the 90 minutes then I can watch NONE of the game, even if I'm trying to watch the recording a few minutes from real-time. Sucks! 

Also, after trying to watch a 0x03 NHL Center Ice recorded game and encountering this, after, if I try to go and watch any other recording that has no restrictions (non NHL Center Ice) it does the same image freezing. The only fix is to reboot the TivoHD to get the other recordings to playback properly. What a mess.


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## jercra (Sep 1, 2007)

forgie716 said:


> I noticed I hadn't mentioned this in this forum, but here is something that adds insult to injury. All of NHL Center Ice games are flagged with the 0x03 byte for me, which limits playback to only up to 90 minutes from the current time you try to watch it. However, even if I try to watch a piece of the recording which is no older than 90 minutes it just freezes on my TiVoHD and shows me a still image with some brief audio which eventually dies. Basically if a game starts at 4:30pm and I go to watch the recording at 6:30, I can not only see none of the original 90 minutes (from 4:30pm to 6pm), but then for the other 30 minutes it just freezes with still images and brief audio. It will let me fast forward, but it just gives me a new still image. This basically means that if I don't start watching the recording before the 90 minutes then I can watch NONE of the game, even if I'm trying to watch the recording a few minutes from real-time. Sucks!
> 
> Also, after trying to watch a 0x03 NHL Center Ice recorded game and encountering this, after, if I try to go and watch any other recording that has no restrictions (non NHL Center Ice) it does the same image freezing. The only fix is to reboot the TivoHD to get the other recordings to playback properly. What a mess.


I had/have the exact same issue and posted about it back in September. Mine was with the MLB package which is on the same channels as NHL CI here in Portland, Or. I work in the cable industry and have some contacts at Comcast and still could get nothing accomplished. I could not ever even get a Comcast rep on the phone who understood the issue. I have given up for a couple of months and will try again before baseball season next spring.

Oh, and my box locks up just like yours.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

BrianAZ said:


> At this point, I'll try anything . Thx


As an interim workaround the OP might try sending the standard-def output from HDTiVo to another standard-def TiVo set to manually record.

(Sorry, obviously this wouldn't work for BrianAZ.)


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

jercra said:


> I had/have the exact same issue and posted about it back in September. Mine was with the MLB package which is on the same channels as NHL CI here in Portland, Or. I work in the cable industry and have some contacts at Comcast and still could get nothing accomplished. I could not ever even get a Comcast rep on the phone who understood the issue. I have given up for a couple of months and will try again before baseball season next spring.
> 
> Oh, and my box locks up just like yours.


The box locking up seems like it would be 100% TiVo's problem since it involves playback and how the TiVo handles the restriction setting. Unfortunately I'm extremely hesitant to waste additional hours on the phone with TiVo to try to get it resolved. I'd rather have the entire issue fixed so I don't even have to deal with the restriction rather than get this playback while restricted fixed. Have I mentioned I hate DRM in its every stupid and poorly implemented form?


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

forgie716 said:


> The box locking up seems like it would be 100% TiVo's problem since it involves playback and how the TiVo handles the restriction setting. Unfortunately I'm extremely hesitant to waste additional hours on the phone with TiVo to try to get it resolved. I'd rather have the entire issue fixed so I don't even have to deal with the restriction rather than get this playback while restricted fixed. Have I mentioned I hate DRM in its every stupid and poorly implemented form?


I hear ya. The only time this will ever get fixed is when someone in authority has the same thing happen to them personally.

Did you ever notice it's the same way with politicians? The other day, a politician's car fell into a sink hole in his driveway. He decides they need a new law, no more burying wood in the ground (like tree trunks). Of course the problem has probably been going on for years.

So, same idea, when some high level CEO gets a TiVo and wants a sports package, and can't get it, he/she will ream out some low level tech, and it will be fixed.


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

Update: 40 days after being contacted by TiVo Executive Relations saying they would work my problem I called them again today and was told that Comcast Portland Tuality Region was told by the NHL that there should be no restriction and to remove it immediately. She told me that on 12/13 this was found out and she would contact me when she finds out the restrictions have been removed on Comcast's end. :up:

On another note, last week I got so fed up that I decided to draft an email and send it directly to the Comcast CEO telling him I was ready to move to Dish Network unless action was taken on this issue. An hour and a half later I received a call from a lady from the Comcast Executive Escalations group vowing to help me. She came back to me yesterday and told me that Comcast Portland Tuality believed the restriction they had set was correct and I called bullsh1t. She then claimed to not be technically savvy enough and would have an engineer call me, but I haven't received a call from them. I'm still trying to get a hold of her today after hearing from TiVo to see if she has any idea of the latest developments that TiVo is claiming to me. Comcast has now fully refunded my $150 for NHL Center Ice and has also offered to lower my bill close to %40 to keep me with Comcast in any capacity possible. :up:


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

SUCCESS!!

Received a call yesterday afternoon from a Comcast Portland engineer saying that they had received instructions from corporate to change the NHL Center Ice restriction from copy never (0x03) to copy once (0x02), which doesn't restrict you to the stupid 90 minute buffer. I went home after work and confirm it indeed has been changed! Woohoo!

I believe most if not all of the credit goes to the TiVo Exec Relations team who pushed this for me with Comcast and the NHL, even though it took them over 40 days. My email to the CEO of Comcast a week ago might have helped a little bit, but the day before when I had talked to this same Comcast engineer he sounded pretty hopeless that it would be quickly resolved and just tried to push a free DVR for a year on me which I refused.

After close to 3 months of having this issue and now about 16 hours of my own time, this issue is resolved. The main culprit was Comcast Corporate who failed to recognize this error that was made in Comcast Portland even though it was set correct in other Comcast regions. To top it off, Comcast Corporate still wouldn't claim that they had made the error until the NHL came in and scolded them for it. Because of this it degraded my level of service and also threatened my business with TiVo because I was fed up with the issue and just wanted a working solution. I was literally days away from dropping both Comcast and TiVo and going with Dish Network.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

forgie716 said:


> SUCCESS!!
> 
> Received a call yesterday afternoon from a Comcast Portland engineer saying that they had received instructions from corporate to change the NHL Center Ice restriction from copy never (0x03) to copy once (0x02), which doesn't restrict you to the stupid 90 minute buffer. I went home after work and confirm it indeed has been changed! Woohoo!.


Congrats! Good job. Now, I hope you get a credit for the lost 1/2 of the season. That's the least they could do.


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## bcwaller (Nov 6, 2007)

pl1 said:


> Congrats! Good job. Now, I hope you get a credit for the lost 1/2 of the season. That's the least they could do.


You only lost 1/2 a season. It could be worse. You could be a Kings fan like me...


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## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

pl1 said:


> There is hope on the horizon. We might be seeing a VOD/SDV dongle. If that happens, there should be no more excuses, except that they are out of them or something.


I was under the impression that, while the dongle would get around any potential SDV problem (there is a thread in the "sticky" list that talks all about this), which may also help PPV (assuming you order them by phone), there is a further problem with VOD in that there needs to be a way for the TiVo to interpret the remote control's commands as commands for the VOD menu and send them on accordingly.

-- Don


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

pl1 said:


> There is hope on the horizon. We might be seeing a VOD/SDV dongle. If that happens, there should be no more excuses, except that they are out of them or something.


the dongle is sdv only


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

jercra said:


> There is not a solution and there is likely not going to be a solution. Comcast has decided that all sports packages are CCI 0x03 or copy never. TivO, or more likely CableLabs, has decided that CCI 0x03 means that you can not even record to a DVR (unless of course that DVR is provided by your cable co in which case it is not required to adhere to any copy protection rules). Motorola, who runs HITS/NAS/NASRAC has also made this decision. I have been down this path with Comcast in Portland, Or with the MLB EI package. DirecTV or a Cable Co provided box seems to be the only recourse. I have suggested that TiVo change their "interpetation" of the copy never flag to mean "copy never beyond this copy" but I don't really think there is much TiVo can do.


Comcast runs HITS, not Motorola


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

ajwees41 said:


> the dongle is sdv only


I made the post in OCT 2007 way before an official announcement. And, it is not totally out of the question that the dongle "could" do PPV and VOD in the future from what I've read.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

That Don Guy said:


> I was under the impression that, while the dongle would get around any potential SDV problem (there is a thread in the "sticky" list that talks all about this), which may also help PPV (assuming you order them by phone), there is a further problem with VOD in that there needs to be a way for the TiVo to interpret the remote control's commands as commands for the VOD menu and send them on accordingly.-- Don


I'd say that sounds about right. That's a very old post that was based on rumor at that time.


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

pl1 said:


> Congrats! Good job. Now, I hope you get a credit for the lost 1/2 of the season. That's the least they could do.


Comcast has refunded me already the full $150 I paid for NHL Center Ice, but they haven't removed the package, so I'm getting a free season. I've also asked TiVo to refund my 3 year subscription price of $299 after the hours I spent on this issue and the degraded service I received. They said they will honor that request and I should see it credited back to my account in 12 to 14 days. I wouldn't wish this issue on anyone, but it's good to see that both Comcast and TiVo know when to provide some refunds in order to keep the customer.


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## skippyg4 (Mar 1, 2006)

I was succesful getting my local comcast to change the CCI Bit for my NHL channels.


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## forgie716 (Oct 23, 2007)

skippyg4 said:


> I was succesful getting my local comcast to change the CCI Bit for my NHL channels.


Good to hear! I had almost forgotten how great it was to be able to playback games whenever I wanted. Did it take much for you to get your region of Comcast to fix it?


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## Reward (Nov 6, 2008)

Is anybody having problems recording and playing back Center Ice with Time Warner in the Raleigh area?

I'm considering purchasing a TiVo HD and would like to record Center Ice games with it.


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## zimrules1 (Sep 19, 2003)

My tivos here in Cumming Georgia (Comcast) starting showing the ugly 0x03 CCI bit. 

Anyone else in Comcast/Ga having this issue? 

Where is the best place to start fixing this? I'm on forever hold with Comcast now.. I'd bet when they do get on the line they'll tell me they can't do anything about it/don't know what I'm talking about.

edit - this started this week (11/11)


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## Iceblade (Sep 30, 2003)

Sorry for the slightly off-topic theme of this post, but it
is on the note of having TIVO record Center Ice games. Does anyone know if there is any rhyme or reason to which team's announcers will be on which channel when two channels are broadcasting the same game? I frequently have to TIVO my Red Wings' games and would love to make sure I always get Ken and Mickey on the channel I record. Has anyone come up with the magic decoder ring to decide which channel will be home vs. away?

Thanks,
Jeff


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## Iceblade (Sep 30, 2003)

Apologies. I used the search engine to find this thread and didn't realize what forum I was posting this to. 

Regards,
Jeff


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