# Dump D* for Cablecard Tivo?



## SmokeBringer (Dec 15, 2000)

Hi all,

I am thinking lately that I am not going to do the big D* "swap" - trading up (down...sideways?) to the new D* PVR, and instead migrate over to the Cablecard version of Tivo when it comes out. I don't think my wife will tolerate learning a new UI - she just has gotten used to "Now Playing".

I'm wondering what other folks are going to do when the new Tivo unit comes out?

Smoke


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## JohnTivo (Dec 2, 2002)

I'm going to re-evaluate my relationship w/ DirecTV. The R15 and HR20 do not interest me in the least. The HMC (Home Media Center) concept does though.. hopefully we'll see both the HMC and CableCard Tivo at CES.

Since I already have HD locals via Los Angeles, I'm not interested in HD LiL... but if D* starts rolling out more HD channels (SCI FI, TNT, or whatever HD) I might consider staying if the HMC is presented at CES and is scheduled to release mid next year. Otherwise, sign me up for a CableCard Tivo or two or three...


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Until my cable company (TWC) greatly improves their HD, I won't be going anywhere. 
This isn't entirely TWC's fault, as our local OTA HD sucks.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

I've thought about the same thing, but we have COX and they only have 2 local network stations (CBS and PBS) in HD with no time table as to when the others will be added. At least it's pretty definate in another year or so D* will have all the locals in HD (I hope anyway...). Of course that would mean dumping TiVo though. I was hoping the media center unit would be the answer, but that remains to be seen. Hopefully CES will answer a lot of questions in a couple of weeks. I also would lose HDNet and I just plain don't want to lose that station!


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

I have DirecTV and just got a new HDTV. Been playing with a Sony DHG-HDD250 and a Comcast Motorola 6412. People who think those boxes are easy to use clearly haven't ever used Tivo.

I'd pay almost anything to have Tivo software run on the Sony box.

Looked at getting a HR10-250 for the Tivo interface, but don't want to activate the receiver and commit to DirecTV for two more years, especially at what it will cost me for the box that DTV will never provide updated Tivo software for. 

I may keep renting the 6412 (Phase III) box until the Tivo software platform is released, but am concerned that the harddrive is too small to be reasonably useful for HiDef.

I didn't think I'd want a Standalone HD CC Tivo box. Now I want two.

For now, I'll keep my regular DirecTivos, record the HD content on the Sony box and wait for a true TivoHD option.

Since that's more likely to be with Comcast, I'll most likely be dropping DirecTV later this year.


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

I would strongly consider the CableCard HDTiVo. OTA sucks as only WB and Fox are anywhere near full power and DirecTV won't have an HD DVR for locals anytime soon.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

I'm registering my support on all the HD CC Tivo threads I can find: unless the HMC turns out to be _very_ compelling and available in a similar timeframe, I'll drop DirecTV and switch to the HD CC Tivo in a heartbeat.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> ...Been playing with a Sony DHG-HDD250 and a Comcast Motorola 6412. People who think those boxes are easy to use clearly haven't ever used Tivo.
> 
> I'd pay almost anything to have Tivo software run on the Sony box...


I had the Sony for a few weeks, but returned it after getting frustrated with their TVGOS. You hit the nail on the head...those who've never used TiVo think the Sony is adequate. Over in the AVSForum in the Sony DHG-HDD250/500 thread, many think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Every time I posted something negative (accurate) about the unit, you'd think I was trying to instigate a riot. I'm saving my $$ for the TiVo CC HD unit, even if it's months away.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Unless the CableCARD Tivo is very screwed up somehow, I will be replacing all my DirecTivos with one. How quickly depends on how much the CC Tivo costs.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

JohnTivo said:


> ...hopefully we'll see both the HMC ...at CES.
> 
> ...


I'm sure you'll see some mockup of the HMC at CES. Ucentric has been showing a mockup for 2 or maybe even 3 years now.

If it ever becomes more than vaporware will be another issue...


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

I am torn on this as well. I have DirecTV with two directivos. No HDTV yet. 
Plan on buying an HDTV set come early 2006. So that is when I will have to really determine the best solution for me when it comes to HDTV signals and who is better (Comcast or Directv)

I realize Comcast is more expensive but I will spend the extra money if I get more channels and better signals. 

Looks like early 2006 will be very interesting...


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

I won't be changing anything.

I've got no problems with DIRECTV. 

My HDVR2 isn't going to be turned off one day by DIRECTV.
If it dies and I can't fix it I'll probably get a DIRECTV DVR.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

I'm in the ditch D* and go CC TiVo as soon as it arrives. That's the point that I will upgrade to HDTV as well.


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## blah (Feb 10, 2003)

...but I've really gotten sick of not having any new features, especially TivoToGo. I'm ready to move to HD, but want a tivo-based system with dual tuners that will eventually have the latest tivo features. Unfortunately since that doesn't exist now (and never will with DirecTV), I'm waiting to upgrade to HD until I see how the CableCard and/or Comcast boxes look. While that's annoying, the sets will just keep getting cheaper, I guess.


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## SmokeBringer (Dec 15, 2000)

I live in RI and have Cox cable service. I have tried doing Google searches to find out where CC is avaliable and I have not had any luck. Does anyone know of any web source that tracks where CC has been deployed?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Stanley Rohner said:


> I won't be changing anything.
> 
> I've got no problems with DIRECTV.
> 
> ...


for SD it's really tough to beat the directivo units even without all the new SA features.

But for HD, tivo is not a viable long term option with DirecTV. They force you to a 2 year commitment and likely within those 2 years there will be MPEG4 content that wont be accessible with the HD TiVo's. They 'wont turn off the HD Directivo's' one day but sometime in the coming months there will be channels on Directv in MPEG4 that the the current HD TiVo wont be able to get. Currently its an issue with HD locals in a handful of the largest markets. It will be an issue soon for most HD locals (by viewers) as Directv adds the top 24-36 markets. And at some point in months or at worst (best for HD TiVos) 2007 there will be national MPEG4 programming that will not be availible to HD TiVo's (national geographic, sunday ticket or other HD sports, starz HD, maybe TBS HD or InHD, or a collection of fox branded voom like channels, etc. )

I think many of the people clammoring for cablecard either have HD or are planning for a future with HD. For them the choice is cable company HD DVR, Some new NDS Directv HD DVR, or a cablecard TiVo.


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## dv8 (Sep 13, 2004)

I think the new dish is what will move me back to comcast when the new HD Tivo CC comes out. The Tripple LBN already looks like hell in my front yard let alone making it twice the size. My only issue is I spent 1 grand for the 10-250 and if I drop D* and take no upgrade option and Comcast sticks with the same old HD ill be disappointed as well. Such a gamble... I might just sit back and watch from the side lines for awhile.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

SmokeBringer said:


> I live in RI and have Cox cable service. I have tried doing Google searches to find out where CC is avaliable and I have not had any luck. Does anyone know of any web source that tracks where CC has been deployed?


you could just check with cox, but i believe they are one of the big 6 companies that was REQUIRED to have cablecard deployed last june.

The FCC website has the semiannual report from the big 6 with their deployment status and pricing and other tidbits. Poke around here for references to the report.

I'm not sure myself what the rule is for how fast the big 6 must deploy the multistream cards that TiVo might be building for, but the last cable company report said those would be deployed by the big 6 by mid year 2006. There weren't specifics if that meant everywhere the big 6 provide or what.


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## SmokeBringer (Dec 15, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> you could just check with cox, but i believe they are one of the big 6 companies that was REQUIRED to have cablecard deployed last june.
> 
> The FCC website has the semiannual report from the big 6 with their deployment status and pricing and other tidbits. Poke around here for references to the report.
> 
> I'm not sure myself what the rule is for how fast the big 6 must deploy the multistream cards that TiVo might be building for, but the last cable company report said those would be deployed by the big 6 by mid year 2006. There weren't specifics if that meant everywhere the big 6 provide or what.


I know Cox supports CableCard in San Diego and possibly VA, but I have seen nothing advertised here in RI. Calling a cable company for anything other than an emergency service issue is not something a sane person would attempt


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

i'll be dumping D* to get a HD/CC Tivo recorder. :up: Haven't been impressed at all with D* the last few years.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

SmokeBringer said:


> I know Cox supports CableCard in San Diego and possibly VA, but I have seen nothing advertised here in RI.


All Cox RI systems offer CableCards for $1.99 / month.

http://www.cox.com/newengland/cable/channel_lineups.asp

Click on the 'pricing' link for your particular town.

Edit: They probably also charge an installation fee.


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## SmokeBringer (Dec 15, 2000)

dt_dc said:


> All Cox RI systems offer CableCards for $1.99 / month.
> 
> http://www.cox.com/newengland/cable/channel_lineups.asp
> 
> ...


Thanks DT_DC. I think that about does it for me unless something surprising emerges from the CES show. I'm goin' back to cable!


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## Sasparilla (Dec 10, 2003)

SmokeBringer said:


> I'm wondering what other folks are going to do when the new Tivo unit comes out?
> 
> Smoke


I'm sitting, happily, with my SD TiVo. Once a real, honest to goodness HD Cable Card TiVo comes out (meaning you could actually buy it), then depending on price I'll start planning on upgrading the TV to HD and then the TiVo very shortly afterwords.

I'll be happy to have the HD TiVo out on the market for a year or so before touching it, let that bleeding edge stay away and the bugs get found and worked out.

Scott


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> I'll be happy to have the HD TiVo out on the market for a year or so before touching it, let that bleeding edge stay away and the bugs get found and worked out.


Not to mention let the price drop.  I look forward to Cablecard, if it allows me to use two tuners in my extended (non-digital) basic cable setup. I don't want HD or digital cable, so if the price is too high I won't bother switching.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I'd be all over a cablecard Tivo


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Not to mention let the price drop.  I look forward to Cablecard, if it allows me to use two tuners in my extended (non-digital) basic cable setup. I don't want HD or digital cable, so if the price is too high I won't bother switching.


That is me as well. I have 4 SD TiVos recording all I want right now. Looking forward to two tuners downstairs so I can trick play everything and just have more right on that box. But I am not ready to go to digital tier until I need to for HD and HD sets are just getting cheaper and HD will only be more comprehensive in 2007. So I can wait till then as most of my Movie watching is on DVD so sports is the only category that would give me an actual benefit for the clearer, more detailed picture.

Just have to avoid looking at HD so the UMF does not overwhelm me


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## George R (Jan 15, 2004)

I am thinking of dumping DTV also. Although I am not a fan of Comcast, the features of a possible 2way cablecard Tivo is hard to resist. Besides, I'm tired of paying for cable and DTV.


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## bv1187 (Apr 16, 2004)

Just the name cable....sends shivers down my spine. I live in SE MN and here we have one cable company....or as I call them "Satan". I can't imagine going back to that S*** for any price. What I've found is that when these companies have no competition there initial pricing isn't too bad, then it starts to climb. NO... I'll stick with D* for now they have shown the consistancy that the local cable "Charter" hasn't.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

The cable card TiVo will only be as good as the cable lineup in your area.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Gunnyman said:


> I'd be all over a cablecard Tivo


...like a fly on feces.


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## bv1187 (Apr 16, 2004)

JimSpence said:


> The cable card TiVo will only be as good as the cable lineup in your area.


Well said............


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## EndBoards (Jun 8, 2004)

I'm on my 2nd cable company DVR (a 2 tuner motorola HD capable box) and we love it. But compared to some of the Tivo series 2 features, it's junk. The HDD is small. The guide is slow and buggy. In spite of all the cool ports, I can't network it or use external storage.

I've been wanting to change over to a Tivo based system for years now, but there have always been strings attached. Want dual tuners and/or HDTV? Then you're stuck with DTV. Want networking, multi-room viewing, DVD burning and/or remote scheduling? Then you've gotta have 2 set top boxes, and you lose HDTV & dual tuners. Those limitations and the assumption that somebody would eventually get it right are what has kept me from investing in a Tivo based system.

For me, the holy grail is:

1) Tivo's Series 2 OS on a 
2) 3rd party box with
3) HDTV support,
4) Photo/mp3 support, and 
5) the ability to pick any content provider I want - cable or sattelite

With the HD/DT/CC Tivo, we're probably close enough for me to dive in.. #2 _(will Tivo continue letting 3rd parties like Toshiba & Humax build boxes with their OS?)_ and #5 _(can/will DirecTV ever offer access to their content via CableCard?)_ on my list are questionable, but I'm glad to say that I will almost certainly dive into a Tivo based system once this thing hits the shelves..


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Endboards, you and I are on the same wavelength. The only difference is I already have a TiVo Series 2 and it's what has kept me from going to HDTV up to this point!

Frustrating, isn't it?


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## EndBoards (Jun 8, 2004)

$$$'s and lack of programming in my area has kept me from going to HDTV...

Tivo stands to really score with a CC based box if they play it right.

For one thing, a full-blown Dual Tuner HDTV CC model is great, but they also need something that's entry-level. I don't see them getting many new customers if thier only option is a $500 box with added subscription costs. A dual tuner SD box for about $100 would probably draw some people, especially if they have a promotion that includes a month or two of subscription for free..

The second aspect is marketing. Obviously, they're going to have a product that mops the floor with the Motorola units offered by cable companies. They need a well-designed, coordinated ad campaign to show what makes Tivo better. They also need promotions that reduce the risk, confusion & problems with forward compatibility that come with Tivo...

Just adding my two copper coins to the rest of you armchair CEO's...  

I'm excited to hear more details as their released over the next week or two.. Hopefully I can finally join the Tivo nation in 2006..


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

EndBoards said:


> ...Tivo stands to really score with a CC based box if they play it right.
> 
> For one thing, a full-blown Dual Tuner HDTV CC model is great, but they also need something that's entry-level. I don't see them getting many new customers if thier only option is a $500 box with added subscription costs....


I, for one, will * JUMP ON* a dual tuner, SA HD box from TiVo at that price. Of course, it would be great to have it cheaper, but, to me, $500 would be reasonable (depending on storage capacity) considering the only other options for SA HD recording (to hard drives) are the LG3410A and the Sony DHG-HDD250/500 which all have been discontinued and all cost MORE than that.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> The cable card TiVo will only be as good as the cable lineup in your area.


true- but the resale on ebay will be pretty good since it will work on any cable company with a decent lineup, unlike the directivos whcih are only as good as directv's linup and worthless anyplace else.


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## EndBoards (Jun 8, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> I, for one, will * JUMP ON* a dual tuner, SA HD box from TiVo at that price. Of course, it would be great to have it cheaper, but, to me, $500 would be reasonable (depending on storage capacity) considering the only other options for SA HD recording (to hard drives) are the LG3410A and the Sony DHG-HDD250/500 which all have been discontinued and all cost MORE than that.


One of megazone's posts suggested that the S3 will be backwards compatable with S2's as far as networking, multi-room viewing & such..

Basically then, the S2's address my concern about having some hardware at a lower price point for a) new users and b) extra rooms..

I'm only going to have one HDTV in the house, so I don't need to spend $500 on a 2nd S3 box. I'd have the S3 in the living room hooked up to an HDTV, and a series 2 in the office hooked up to SDTV. SD content needs to be viewable on either box, and I want to have all of the TTG features as well as Yahoo scheduling.. That would be perfection..

The only other thing that would be nice is the ability to use DTv or Dish as my content provider if I wanted to (not saying that I would, but obviously, the S3 rules those two providers out..)


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

EndBoards said:


> One of megazone's posts suggested that the S3 will be backwards compatable with S2's as far as networking, multi-room viewing & such..
> 
> Basically then, the S2's address my concern about having some hardware at a lower price point for a) new users and b) extra rooms..
> 
> ...


My thoughts as well, however it seems that it is unlikely the S2's will be able to access the HD content. All the SD content would be fair game though.


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## mickeymammoth (May 9, 2002)

I was thinking that when DirecTV came out with locals in HD, then I would finally spend $ to get HD (already have the TV). But with the cablecard Tivo on the horizon, it doesn't make sense to buy a DirecTivo: DirecTV is never going to update the Tivo with new services (I'd like to download a show to my PSP!), and will likely undermine it with MPEG4 etc. Also, I'd have to mount a 2nd dish to try to point at the HD satellites, if it's even possible with all my trees.

For this reason, despite the possible loss of picture quality, I will probably switch to the cablecard Tivo. We get Comcast in our area, and I don't think they're as good as DirecTV in quality, but they should have lots of HD content. I can get rid of the dish, too. Plus, I get to send a big F#$k You to Rupert Murdoch!


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

mickeymammoth said:


> For this reason, despite the possible loss of picture quality, I will probably switch to the cablecard Tivo.


I don't understand this sentiment. I used to use Digital Cable and moved to DirecTV to get TiVo. I could net tell the two apart quality wise except for the few analogue channels on cable (but that would not be a fair comparison Analoge vs Digital).

It seems three years later I'm going to drop DTV and get Digital Cable back to get TiVo. Ironic isn't it  I don't expect the picture quality to go down at all.


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## HogarthNH (Dec 28, 2001)

mickeymammoth said:


> DirecTV [snip] will likely undermine it with MPEG4 etc.


Will *likely*?? You mean they didn't already?
I'd consider every single step of D*'s new DVR program to be designed to undermine and migrate customers to a platform they control.

H


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## mickeymammoth (May 9, 2002)

nhaigh said:


> I used to use Digital Cable and moved to DirecTV to get TiVo. I could net tell the two apart quality wise except for the few analogue channels on cable (but that would not be a fair comparison Analoge vs Digital).


Way back when I had a standalone Tivo with cable, I thought the picture kind of sucked compared to DirecTV. I've read complaints about the quality of the HD, as well, but have no personal experience. But that said, I think it would be better to get HD in some form rather than not at all, and why bother investing in DirecTV HD at this point? Unlike some people on this forum, I'm not willing to go to a lousy non-Tivo DVR even if it is cheaper. Also, MUST have the dual tuners.


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

I'm going to do some serious research on pricing when the Series 3 comes out. I've currently got 2 DirecTiVos running, so those would need to be replaced, and I'm not sure when my contract with DirecTV runs out. I think when the ultimate choice between DirecTV's DVR and TiVo comes, I'll stick with TiVo, but I probably won't be a first adopter.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

mickeymammoth said:


> Way back when I had a standalone Tivo with cable, I thought the picture kind of sucked compared to DirecTV.


That's a point I'd conceed. The stand alone TiVo did reduce the picture quality even on high quality because of all the A to D converting in real time it had to do. The source PQ from comcast when watched next t the same from DTV were indistiguishable IMO. The DirecTV TiVo of course recorded the digital stream so it's PQ was far superior to the PQ from the SA.


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## rjknyy (Feb 16, 2004)

I'll be sticking with D* as long as they are the only one with NFL Sunday Ticket.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

You have Sunday Ticket with *standalone* TiVos? Well, to each their own. I personally like having two D-TiVos with 4 tuners so I can keep tabs on 4 separate games.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

As soon as the HD Standalone Tivo hits the shelves I'll be doing a serious evaluation of my local cable providers pricing and line-up compared to DirecTV. With no TiVo plans going forward and an increasingly unwieldy hardware solution DirecTV will be going in with two stikes against it. It appears likely that I'll soon be ending my 10 years with DirecTV.


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## bv1187 (Apr 16, 2004)

I currently don't have HD TV, so I feel a little inadequate. However my neighbor does, and I have to say "I don't see it as a big deal". SportsCenter in HD or the local news does nothing for me. While I currently am a Sunday Ticket subscriber and love it dearly, when my team is getting the snot kicked out of them that HD picture will not ease the pain.


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## dr_mal (Mar 21, 2001)

It's all about the TiVo interface. Since my D* HR10-250 is *still* running basically 2-3 year old TiVo software, I'll be cancelling my D* service once I get the Series 3 TiVo. Not sure at this point if I'll subscribe to Comcast or just rely on the free OTA HDTV (which is at least 90% of what I watch right now)


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

EndBoards said:


> will Tivo continue letting 3rd parties like Toshiba & Humax build boxes with their OS?


Sure, that is what they want, someone to assume the costs of manufacture and distribution, even system design (off of a reference TiVo design), while they sit there just providing the service.



> can/will DirecTV ever offer access to their content via CableCard?


Nope. 
The current CableCard system uses a fixed QAM tuner in the STB, with a removeable CA unit, and that QAM tuner can only tune cable, and sometimes ATSC.

A unit that has a module that includes a tuner module as well is needed for DirecTV and Dishnet to be compatible.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

dr_mal said:


> It's all about the TiVo interface. Since my D* HR10-250 is *still* running basically 2-3 year old TiVo software, I'll be cancelling my D* service once I get the Series 3 TiVo. Not sure at this point if I'll subscribe to Comcast or just rely on the free OTA HDTV (which is at least 90% of what I watch right now)


I'm in the same boat. However I have 2 HDTV sets and will proably add another set before the series 3 is out. I think i might just take off the Hd package and lower some of my package that I have with D* and then sighn up for cable also, It all depends on what D* and Mediacom has in terms of progrmaing when the series 3 comes out. I'll proably end up with a situation where both offers something the other doesn't. My budget fot TV programing is about 150$ a month so I could proably swing getting cable with there bundling of services.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

I would dump Comcast Motorola 6412, but it does a "good enough" job and it's here NOW at less then $16 per box.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> I had the Sony for a few weeks, but returned it after getting frustrated with their TVGOS. You hit the nail on the head...those who've never used TiVo think the Sony is adequate. Over in the AVSForum in the Sony DHG-HDD250/500 thread, many think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Every time I posted something negative (accurate) about the unit, you'd think I was trying to instigate a riot. I'm saving my $$ for the TiVo CC HD unit, even if it's months away.


 It's strange the forum members feel that way. Most AV magazines that have tested the Sony have regarded it as hard to use and over priced.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

tenthplanet said:


> It's strange the forum members feel that way. Most AV magazines that have tested the Sony have regarded it as hard to use and over priced.


And I would agree...it is....but lately, BB has been dumping the HDD250 for under $500. I went ahead and got one to tide me over until TiVo has its unit available, then it's off to eBay I go with the Sony  !


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## hoopsbwc34 (Jan 28, 2003)

SmokeBringer said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am thinking lately that I am not going to do the big D* "swap" - trading up (down...sideways?) to the new D* PVR, and instead migrate over to the Cablecard version of Tivo when it comes out. I don't think my wife will tolerate learning a new UI - she just has gotten used to "Now Playing".
> 
> ...


The only thing that might keep me with D* is the $10 less per month for the fee... but that will be the only advantage D* has left in my eyes. And the advantages of HME, Tivo2Go and such may sway me in the end. We'll have to see how good the D* box ends up being.


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## isbellHFh (Nov 6, 2003)

I'm not sure if I love DirecTV, but I hate cable. Of course, that was years ago.

Regardless, I love TiVo a whole lot more. I'll be dumping directv and going for cable when Series 3 comes out unless DirecTV starts acting right. I told them this, too, just a week ago when I activated another series 2 direcTivo box. The woman on the other side just sighed. I think she's heard it before.

Losing two series 2 and the HD directivo is annoying but not too much: I'll give them away to my family and suck them in.

My problem is that I still hate cable... and I can't tell what HD Comcast actually has available here in Atlanta. I went to their website but I find their scheme more than a little opaque. One reading is:
755	Braves HDTV 
803	WSB (ABC) HDTV 
804	WAGA (FOX) HDTV 
806	WXIA (NBC) HDTV 
807	WTBS (Ind. 17) HDTV 
809	WGCL (CBS) HDTV 
813	WATL (WB) HDTV 
844	Discovery HD Theater 
846	ESPN HDTV 
876	INHD 
877	INHD2 
880	HBO HDTV 
885	Cinemax HDTV 
890	Showtime HDTV 
895	STARZ! HDTV

But another reading is:
803	WSB (ABC) HDTV 
807	WTBS (Ind. 17) HDTV

I'm beginning to have flashbacks to when I had cable... ARGH!

Why can't DBS be an open standard and just solve all of this for me?

Sigh.

Peace.


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## Glen Graham (Oct 12, 2000)

In my case... I had an SA TiVo for many years. Moved to DTV (2 TiVos) in my new house in June 2004. Just got a 3rd TiVo in November (one of the last available) -- meaning a new 2 year committment.

However, I do want to move to HD. I was tempted with the "discount" $200-ish HD-TiVo, but it would only be used in my dedicated theater, where we don't want to watch daily shows (due to playing with the baby, cooking in the kitchen, etc, that we can do with the analog Family Room RPTV).

However, the new Series 3 TiVo has me excited. My wife and I went from SA to DTV because of TiVo. We'd rather leave DTV than leave TiVo. Their new DTV "DVR" is not TiVo...

So, when the price is reasonable enough, bye-bye DTV. Of course, I'll have to buy an HDTV for the family room then, so it is all about "overall cost".

I tried DTiVo on my 133" dedicated theater, and it was just not, uh, good enough. I'm sure HDTV would make me quite happy


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## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

I came to D* cause of Tivo, and reccomended it to MANY MANY people. I plan to leave when the Series 3 comes out. But not on day one. I'm sitting on the following today:
2 DirectTivos (Along with 1 spare)
1 HR10-250
I series 1 SA - Lifetime.

I figure when Series 3 has the bugs shaken (or D* move NY Locals to MPEG-4 forcing my hand) I will exit by buying 1 Series 3 with lifetime, 1 Series 2 (cheapie unit) with monthly, and using my Series 1 again.
So my main TV will have 1 Series 3 + 1 Series 2 (3 tuners versus the 4 I have today), and my roomates' TV will be stuck with the single Series 1 controlling cable box (she is gonna be darn unhappy).
D*, you're gonna regret leaving Tivo, u should have supported both platforms. Loosing early adopters / power users is a small amount revenue, but it costs u a lot of buzz and incremental revenue from people they reccomend to.
-Shaown


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## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

SmokeBringer said:


> I live in RI and have Cox cable service. I have tried doing Google searches to find out where CC is avaliable and I have not had any luck. Does anyone know of any web source that tracks where CC has been deployed?


Note that if you don't subscribe to any 'scrambled' channels, I've heard that the CC tivo will be able to tun in the 'clear' digital channels *without* any cablecard at all. So the price may not matter.

-Kyle


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## kshep (Feb 13, 2005)

I've had my hacked SAT-T60 for years now. I got it about the same time as my HD-ready Sony. A while back I picked up a cheap Samsung HD tuner and discovered I get pretty much no OTA HD reception, even though I'm about two miles from the antenna on Twin Peaks here in San Francisco. D* has just rolled out locals here (except WB and UPN), but apparently you need a 5 LNB dish.

So, I can...

A) Buy a new D* box, upgrade my antenna, lose the TiVo UI, and still not get all the channels I do in SD

B) Buy a new box, keep the TiVo UI, and keep a "full" HD channel lineup. Oh... and dump DSL and double or triple my network download speed with a cable modem while i'm at it.

Let's see...uh...B?


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

Yeah it's just a real shame the cable card spec doesn't cover the sat companies as well. I also see the new Tivo as a good investment. It's something I own and the cable company and sat companies have no claim to it. If I move to a different cable company in another area i take my tivos with me. I'd like to have more hidef locals provided by my sat or cable company but at least with ATSC built in I always have the OTA option. 

i also no longer get the monthly fee *****ing. We all know it's this way and we should get over it. i however prefer this method over the HIGHER cable fees for leasing a DVR box and then they charge a guide fee at least mine does. So you end up with 20$ a month for there Hd DVR and you don't own it. I'd probably be allot more upset at tivo but with the multi tivo discount I'm no longer upset. So when the series 3 comes out I'll actually cancel my internet and then have the other member of the household call mediacom. I'll see what new customer offer they have and possibly a dish trade in deal. I'll just give them one of my non tivo receivers and keep D* active for what channels cable doesn't offer.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Providing my cable company will be doing cards when this thing comes out I will probably switch. It will be hard to go from 4 tuner to 2 but eventually I will buy another one.


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

I'm not a big fan of cable, and I've been very happy with my 10-250, but I've been disappointed with DirecTV's weak support of TiVo. So I'll definitely move to cable if the opportunity presents itself.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

We need to compare apples to apples here. Most posts in this thread ignore the fact that series 3 is not available yet. By the time it becomes available DirecTV should have new NDS based MPEG4 DVR. We don't know much about it at present, but from what I read it will have some very nice features. By the time series 3 is available DirecTV will have locals in most markets and a lot of additional content. Dish already has more content than Direct or cable companies and they should have more after switching to MPEG4 by middle of this year. Cable companies are also working on adding content and improving DVRs. In my mind it isn't a clear cut that series 3 has substantial advantage over what will be available from satellite and/or cable providers by end of the year. Cable Card is a nice concept but reality is that in most areas you do not have a choice of the cable provider so series 3 will work with only one choice of content regardless of it's capability to be used with multiple cable companies. So after you purchase series 3 or satellite DVR you are in a same situation - your locked to the provider. I don't know about all the positives that TiVo will have over the DirecTV offering by end of the year, but I know that it will not allow you to order PPV or VOD. To me it would be enough to discard it as an alternative to whatever DVR DirectTV will have.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

samo said:


> We need to compare apples to apples here. Most posts in this thread ignore the fact that series 3 is not available yet. By the time it becomes available DirecTV should have new NDS based MPEG4 DVR. We don't know much about it at present, but from what I read it will have some very nice features. By the time series 3 is available DirecTV will have locals in most markets and a lot of additional content. Dish already has more content than Direct or cable companies and they should have more after switching to MPEG4 by middle of this year. Cable companies are also working on adding content and improving DVRs. In my mind it isn't a clear cut that series 3 has substantial advantage over what will be available from satellite and/or cable providers by end of the year. Cable Card is a nice concept but reality is that in most areas you do not have a choice of the cable provider so series 3 will work with only one choice of content regardless of it's capability to be used with multiple cable companies. So after you purchase series 3 or satellite DVR you are in a same situation - your locked to the provider. I don't know about all the positives that TiVo will have over the DirecTV offering by end of the year, but I know that it will not allow you to order PPV or VOD. To me it would be enough to discard it as an alternative to whatever DVR DirectTV will have.


The whole point of having cable card 2.0 is so you can use PPV and VOD. it might take some time to get it all figured out, but at least it will be true VOD and not some crap where D* uses 60gigs of your hard drive to store stuff they want you to pay for. I set my sister up with the R15 and have programed it for her and tried to teach here the basics, Then monday night I get a call and she is going crazy because the unit just froze while they where recording 24 and looking up stuff in the guide. The only solution was a unplug restart and they missed 15min of 24 because of this. This has happened 5 times now in just a span of a couple weeks, So if this is the quality of there units then I'll be getting a series 3 as my main device. I'm sure I will be getting the new HD DVR unit from D* when mpeg 4 finally shows up in my market but only if I get a free swap out and maybe not even then. I paid 1000$ for my HD Tivo and I love it. I own this unit and won't just trade it in for another unit unless I own that unit also.

D* is really screwing up in my opinion by leaving tivo and not moving faster with there Hd options. My cable company seems to be moving very fast with there hd offerings. If it wasn't for all the tivo units I already have I'd move to E* as my future secondary provider. I paid 160$ to D* this month and when the series 3 comes out I'll change my package with them so I only pay 60$ or so.

I'm in market 79 or 80 right now so I'm not getting anything local until 2007. There is also reliable information that D* won't be adding any knew national HD channels until 2007 also. So to repeat cc2.0 allows vod and ppv. D* won't have any knew national hd channels until 2007, and almost every market won't have all there locals (WB,UPN,PBS,Fox,CBS,ABC,NBC). Many market will have the big four but again many will not.


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## GrumpyGuy (Mar 24, 2002)

I just got a Sony R60XBR1 and suspended my Directv account for 6 months. My cable company (Brighthouse) gave me a better deal. No upfront cost and no long term contracts. Their HD PVR is a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD. Not bad but it's no TIVO. The TIVO Season Pass and PBS Kids are the only two things my family misses. I also miss not being able to extract video content from the TIVO.

My hope is the TIVO 3 will be as hackable as it's predecessors. If it is, I'll buy one or two and will stay with cable. I would consider going back to DTV if they would add more HD stations but only if they fix their junky PVRs and decrease their compression. The R15 was and still is a joke.

jerry
Clearwater, FL


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> I don't know about all the positives that TiVo will have over the DirecTV offering by end of the year, but I know that it will not allow you to order PPV or VOD. To me it would be enough to discard it as an alternative to whatever DVR DirectTV will have.


DirectTV and PPV/VOD ? what will they offer other than storing a bunch of stuff on the hard drive of your DVR ?


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## George R (Jan 15, 2004)

Will the Series 3 be able to purchase pay per view or view on demand?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

George R said:


> Will the Series 3 be able to purchase pay per view or view on demand?


No. It will have whatever deals TiVo can work out for internet downloadable content but currently nothing has been heard on that front to match what would be available for a cable co PPV or VOD. Looks like my netflix DVD susbcription is going to remain in effect for a good while longer.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

George R said:


> Will the Series 3 be able to purchase pay per view or view on demand?


Not at this time anyway. Who knows in the future.


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## gfb107 (Jul 16, 2001)

George R said:


> Will the Series 3 be able to purchase pay per view or view on demand?


It *should*, with a CableCard 2.0 card.

See the OpenCable Specifications CableCARD Interface 2.0 Specification, in Section 5.1:


> 5.1 Advanced Cable Services
> The Card interface specification is designed to support advanced digital cable services by a digital television
> receiver when a Card is inserted.
> In this case, Advanced Digital Cable Services would include support of the following functions:
> ...


Note that we don't really know when these cards will be available from cable providers.


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## dr_mal (Mar 21, 2001)

Just a clarification re: CableCard 2.0

As I understand it from other threads here discussing the Series 3, "CableCard 2.0" is kind of a misleading name.

The current generation of CableCards (originally 1.0) are single-stream, *uni*directional.

The next generation, and the generation the Series 3 will support, are multi-stream, *uni*directional.

In order to order PPV or VOD, we'll need a future generation of CableCard (which hasn't been fully defined yet) which will support multi-stream, *bi*directional communication with the cableco.

Originally, the CableCard 2.0 standard was supposed to support multi-stream and bidirectional communication, but I guess they wanted to get multi-stream support out as quickly as possible and not hold that up in favour of getting bidirectional communication hammered out.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dr_mal said:


> Just a clarification re: CableCard 2.0
> 
> As I understand it from other threads here discussing the Series 3, "CableCard 2.0" is kind of a misleading name.
> 
> ...


yes and the misconception cleared up for me was that the bi-directional happened on the card. It does not.

cable card 2.0 spec talks about what the Host hardware needs to do for bi-directional support. nothing happens on the card except simple pass through.

so the hold up is that cable labs has put out a standard fro adoption that the cable cos like and Consumer Electronic Association says is too heavy for them and gives them no benefit. so the standard is stalled at working through that impasse.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Yes, to be clear, after my intial post I ask more questions and clarified that the box will support CC2.0 cards - but only unidirectional. The Series3 will not have upstream communication - well, more precisely, since the requirements are completely unknown at this time, it is impossible to say for sure. But the cable companies want OCAP, a DOCSIS modem, etc, as part of the requirements - and the unit will not have those required items, so if they remain part of the 2.0 requirements then the box would not be bidirectional. If the CE vendors counter-proposal, which is much lighter on requirements, prevails - then the best answer is 'maybe'.

But at this time the offical answer is that the Series3 is unidirectional only.


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## George R (Jan 15, 2004)

Thanks


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> DirectTV and PPV/VOD ? what will they offer other than storing a bunch of stuff on the hard drive of your DVR ?


Obviously VOD on satellite is not real VOD. You can set recordings for PPV in advance and you don't have to pay for it until you view it. If you don't view it, then it gets deleted in 4 weeks and you don't pay. Not real VOD and it does take space on your drive (on new Dish receivers PPVs are stored in protected area just like infomercials on TiVo, on DirecTV it takes space from regular area). But with DirecTV I can order from almost a 100 PPV channels by just click of the button and with cable DVRs you get real VOD in addition to PPVs. With series 3 you get nothing. I'm not sure that it will even support PPV guide (SA TiVo still doesn't have PPV guide for Dish and Direct after 6 years of operation).


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

Someone should start a poll. I'd like to see numbers on this.

I'm counting on people dumping DTV for the new HDTiVo to give TIVO stock a jump before I sell.


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## snooplives (Jan 17, 2004)

ThreeSoFar said:


> Someone should start a poll. I'd like to see numbers on this.
> 
> I'm counting on people dumping DTV for the new HDTiVo to give TIVO stock a jump before I sell.


My opinion on this is that if directv doesn't seriously improve things, in terms of PQ and additional channels, I will reluctantly go to cable. I never thought I would say that, because I have turned on quite a few people to directvand been with the service for ten years now. The fact that directv hasn't given us folders on our hd tivos is a joke. My program guide is so slow, it makes watching tv less enjoyable, and my hd tivo reboots when I have a lot of stuff recorded on the hard drive. Just last week, my wife had to run into the bedroom during Gray's Anatomy when the tivo decided to reboot. My wife loves tivo and the meer (sp?) mention of us ditching directv and tivo gets her crazy. Two year contracts aren't exactly enticing either.

However, the point I'm making is that the average person will go with the service that has the least hassle, and more importantly, is cheaper. I tell people that Directv is better in terms of customer service, picture quality (although some people would argue that), and ease of use, but most reply with the fact they can get the triple play with voice, data and video for $90. How can you argue with that? My directv bill is $90 alone. They don't need the cutting edge cable card tivo or the hr-10-250 that costs $900 the day it comes out. They don't care. They want something that is reliable, that doesn't go out in the rain, and is cheap. Sure, if you have tivo to start, any other dvr pales in comparison. The cablevision dvr sucks, and is just so confusing to use. But people who don't know the difference really don't give a rat's ass. They will go to whichever is cheaper. If directv had a triple play option, I think more people might switch to directv. Otherwise, the only people who really care about the CC tivo are the ones who inhabit these forums, and I don't think tivo will sell that many of them unless they are at a very low price (around $199) or they work out deals to sell through the cable companies.

Just my opinion.


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

I have DirecTV for 12 years and I've been satisfied. However, watching TV with TiVo is more important than DirecTV. I have several DirecTV TiVos and SA TiVos to take advantage of as much TiVo TV experience as possible with content from DirecTV. Eventually I'll want to upgrade my TV to Hi-Def and at the same time get the TiVo that will give me the most features and control. I believe TiVo downloads might get very interesting as a content source. So I think I might be spending some big bucks on new TiVo Series 3's and a Hi-Def TV in 2007 when it seems Cable, OTA, Broadband and TiVo will all work very well together in one box from TiVo.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

megazone said:


> Yes, to be clear, after my intial post I ask more questions and clarified that the box will support CC2.0 cards - but only unidirectional. The Series3 will not have upstream communication - well, more precisely, since the requirements are completely unknown at this time, it is impossible to say for sure. But the cable companies want OCAP, a DOCSIS modem, etc, as part of the requirements - and the unit will not have those required items, so if they remain part of the 2.0 requirements then the box would not be bidirectional. If the CE vendors counter-proposal, which is much lighter on requirements, prevails - then the best answer is 'maybe'.
> 
> But at this time the offical answer is that the Series3 is unidirectional only.


curious-

did you specifically ask if would have a docsis modem or not?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

kshep said:


> I've had my hacked SAT-T60 for years now. I got it about the same time as my HD-ready Sony. A while back I picked up a cheap Samsung HD tuner and discovered I get pretty much no OTA HD reception, even though I'm about two miles from the antenna on Twin Peaks here in San Francisco. D* has just rolled out locals here (except WB and UPN), but apparently you need a 5 LNB dish.
> 
> So, I can...
> 
> ...


I forgot all about the DSL/cable modem comparasions factoring into the switch. I have DirecTV and had DSL up until a litle over a year ago. Went to cable for broadband and pay less for boadband for far more d/l bandwidth than I ever had with DSL.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> did you specifically ask if would have a docsis modem or not?


Hmmm... I don't think I did, not that I recall anyway. I did ask one person, but they didn't know either way.


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## paulstefano (Jan 12, 2006)

Don't forget Tivo has a new deal with Comcast. HOPEFULLY, the Series 3 will be compatible with whatever content Comcast decides to broadcast in the future.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

megazone said:


> Hmmm... I don't think I did, not that I recall anyway. I did ask one person, but they didn't know either way.


thanks for the reply.

I wonder if a docsis modem is like a $5 chip in bulk or a big deal. Anyone know?

It would be nice if they included that so that they at least meat the cablecard 2.0 hardware cpec. That would give them the option later on of doing 2-way if they cant right away...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

paulstefano said:


> Don't forget Tivo has a new deal with Comcast. HOPEFULLY, the Series 3 will be compatible with whatever content Comcast decides to broadcast in the future.


At some point supposedly cable has to go to 100% cablecard- even for the boxes they lease out.

But I think they would more likely get a cablecard moto or SA box as opposed to using the tivo box as a reference platform. I could be wrong but i just think moto and SA have some kind of unholy grasp on teh cable companies. (although aparently Panasonic is going to supply a pile of OCAP boxes to comcast?)


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## bferrell (Jun 22, 2005)

gfb107 said:


> It *should*, with a CableCard 2.0 card.
> 
> See the OpenCable Specifications CableCARD Interface 2.0 Specification[/url], in Section 5.1:
> 
> Note that we don't really know when these cards will be available from cable providers.


Also keep in mind that even with CableCard 1.0 you can do VOD, you just have to place a call the cable company to request the show. I don't use VOD much, so that wouldn't be a show-stopper to me, though I'd love to have bidirectional, but I loathe my 8300HD (though it has a nice picture), so I'm looking forward to the switch to Series 3!


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

bferrell said:


> Also keep in mind that even with CableCard 1.0 you can do VOD, you just have to place a call the cable company to request the show.


You can typically do PPV ... VOD is another issue.

iPPV (impulse PPV) is when you order a PPV from your cable box. Most cable systems also support ordering PPV via the phone ... most even support ordering via the web.

With PPV, there's a single linear channel relating to the PPV purchase. Cable plant sends the box the correct key and ... bang, you get the channel. PPV with a unidirectional CableCard host.

VOD however ... works differently ... and I don't know of any cable systems allowing you to order VOD via phone or web (and technically it'd be rather ... difficult).


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

With CC TiVo will be getting its guide data from that. If they don't lower their receiver fees to account for this fact I'm going to stay with D* as long as its viable. I can't justify to myself (and TiVo couldn't possibly justify it to me either) paying $13+6+6+6[+6] = ~$50/mo for TiVo service in addition to the cable bill. TiVo has got to understand CC greatly reduces their cost of operation and readjust service pricing for the CC units.

I mean, this is exactly why you pay the "DVR fee" to D* once...


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

tivohaydon said:


> With CC TiVo will be getting its guide data from that. (...) TiVo has got to understand CC greatly reduces their cost of operation and readjust service pricing for the CC units.


No ... a CC Tivo (probably) won't be getting guide data via coax from the cable company ... and no CC does not (neccesarily) reduce their cost of operation.

Edit: Fixed typo (bet->be)


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> No ... a CC Tivo (probably) won't bet getting guide data via coax from the cable company ... and no CC does not (neccesarily) reduce their cost of operation.


Especially considering we don't know the terms of the Comcast deal.

I wouldn't want to lose the remote scheduling capability, and for that they need the Internet.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

tivohaydon said:


> TiVo has got to understand CC greatly reduces their cost of operation and readjust service pricing for the CC units.


What makes you think this? Whether or not you use a cable card has nothing to do with the cost of service.

Unless Tivo sells a boatload more subscriptions, don't expect the Series 3 Tivo will have anything to do with decreasing the monthly fee.


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## LostCluster (Feb 11, 2002)

From the CES floor screenshots of the device it has an RJ-45 connector, so it appears networking and Internet is going to be supported without even need for a USB dongle.

TiVo's policy is most likely going to be to encurage all that can to download over the Internet with the modem included as a fallback... why even try to use cable's guide format when TiVo's already got their system based on Tribune set up.


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

jfh3 said:


> What makes you think this? Whether or not you use a cable card has nothing to do with the cost of service.
> 
> Unless Tivo sells a boatload more subscriptions, don't expect the Series 3 Tivo will have anything to do with decreasing the monthly fee.


I don't see any reason why TiVo should not be taking advantage of the program guide that is broadcast from the cable companies themselves. Unless their guide data doesn't go two weeks or has some other limitation that makes it an unsuitable replacement.

If the CC TiVo can get the program guide from the cable company that's an entire cable company TiVo doesn't have to provide guide information for. If there's a deal with Comcast then Comcast will undoubtedly provide this functionality. That means less load on TiVo servers, fewer dialup minutes/broadband usage, less manpower and infrastructure to maintain guides, likely less fees to TiVo's guide provider because TiVo is providing it to fewer people.

So as I said, less money.


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

Cable DVRs don't go two weeks forward, I thought. And their descriptions and such are horrible, my friends say.

You need very good guide data to back up the wishlists and such (director searches and the like).


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## hancox (Dec 17, 2004)

EndBoards said:


> For me, the holy grail is:
> 
> 1) Tivo's Series 2 OS on a
> 2) 3rd party box with
> ...


Blasphemy here, I know, but... If you knock out #1, and all of the press releases fall into reality (an admitted long shot), then a Media Center PC will allow you all of this, minus Echostar. Sadly, if it's between a PC and a Tivo, I choose the PC every time for flexibility.


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## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

For those folks who suggest "Give the NDS MPEG-4 HD DVR a try". Umm, noo? Why the heck would I want to do that. If I want to give a non-TIVO HD DVR a try, why wouldn't I switch to cable and try a SA, Motorola, or Moxi box. I love trying to new tech, but I'm not sure why any of you think a NDS box whose previous incarnations (R15, UK SkyDVR) all sorta suck would be so nice. For those who say in 3-6 months, who knows what kind of cool features/fixes/etc NDS wil incorporate before they release a new box, I answer, same holds true for Motorola, SA, etc. I could say that about any of the DVRs out there.
Especially since trying out the new NDS DVR will prolly result in some sort of commitment, etc. (yea, yea, maybe I can get out of it by sending equipment back, buy my 1k HD Tivo is not getting mailed back for some leased item).

Based on the releases of Series 2 SA, the DirectTivo, and even the HR10-250, I have seen Tivo release good products repeatedly. Some bugs (HDMI output, etc), sure, but fundamentally products I trust and respect with lots of what I see as good support (compared to most other CE vendors out there! When was the last time a Sony or Scientific Atlanta rep posted in a forum!!!!!!).

Net of it is, I will be going to cable for a CableCard Tivo, I don't plan to give the NDS box a chance. When I am at home, I spend an awful lot of time watching TV for better or for worse, and I watch tv thru my Tivo. If DirectTV wants to retain my business, they can offer choice! If its too expensive or difficult, no hard feelings, u just don't get my business.


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## EndBoards (Jun 8, 2004)

hancox said:


> Blasphemy here, I know, but... If you knock out #1, and all of the press releases fall into reality (an admitted long shot), then a Media Center PC will allow you all of this, minus Echostar. Sadly, if it's between a PC and a Tivo, I choose the PC every time for flexibility.


Well, yeah.. And I've thought about building a PC and doing everything with Myth or something like that. I'm not at all opposed to it..

But non-digital cable really doesn't work for me. For one thing, you're limited to OTA HDTV and in my area that's only two channels. My local cable co's offer about 8 or 9 extra HD channels.

Second - I subscribe to NHL center ice every year. As far as I know, there's no way to get that with PC-based solutions. If there was a TV tuner card out there that would let me use a cablecard or provide some other way for me to get digital cable, I'd start building my PC yesterday..


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## hancox (Dec 17, 2004)

EndBoards said:


> But non-digital cable really doesn't work for me. For one thing, you're limited to OTA HDTV and in my area that's only two channels. My local cable co's offer about 8 or 9 extra HD channels.


that's the point. MC PC's get a cablecard interface soon (albeit maybe not until Vista is out, who knows...). Once this happens, the single biggest problem with MC goes away, and the ballgame changes...


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

tivohaydon said:


> I don't see any reason why TiVo should not be taking advantage of the program guide that is broadcast from the cable companies themselves. Unless their guide data doesn't go two weeks or has some other limitation that makes it an unsuitable replacement.


A: The data isn't as "rich", or formatted as the TiVo needs.

B: CC1.0 cannot get guide data.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

tivohaydon said:


> I don't see any reason why TiVo should not be taking advantage of the program guide that is broadcast from the cable companies themselves.


Because it isn't available in a standardized format and it doesn't have all the data TiVo relies on. The first issue is one of the sticking points in CC2.0 - CE manufacturers want access to the guide data in a standard format, like XML, while the cable companies don't want to provide any access, locking it up within OCAP.

The basic EPGs that are available openly, which some DVRs use, only go out a few days and lack the detailed data. And they aren't even carried on all cable networks, as some DVR buyers have discovered to their dismay.

CC does not lower TiVo's cost, the guide data will be provided in exactly the same way as the Series2 - phone or network.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

tivohaydon said:


> I don't see any reason why TiVo should not be taking advantage of the program guide that is broadcast from the cable companies themselves. Unless their guide data doesn't go two weeks or has some other limitation that makes it an unsuitable replacement.
> 
> If the CC TiVo can get the program guide from the cable company that's an entire cable company TiVo doesn't have to provide guide information for. If there's a deal with Comcast then Comcast will undoubtedly provide this functionality. That means less load on TiVo servers, fewer dialup minutes/broadband usage, less manpower and infrastructure to maintain guides, likely less fees to TiVo's guide provider because TiVo is providing it to fewer people.
> 
> So as I said, less money.


besides the multiple formats- the cable company guide data is frequently crap- and doesn't contain the data that a DVR needs to run like a tivo (stuff like episode info- first run or repeat, original air date, etc.) Just read some of the experiences with people using cable company DVR's- alot of it is the guide data stinks.

Besides that, some have less then the 2 weeks tivo hands out. The box should be able to handle itslef fine with only a few days of data (tivo basic boxes do) but it will be a pain in the butt for the end user to find stuff. Try to set up a seaon pass for a show that starts wednesday night with 3 days of data the week befre- aint gonna happen. I get annoyed enough now when i see a commercial for a new show "coming soon" and its 3 or 4 weeks away and i cant set up the recoring. I'd pull my hair out if an ad on friday told me a new show starts wednesday and I couldnt set up teh recording.

Also- I dont know for sure but I dont think their guide data distribution over the net costs them all that much. Old boxes with phone calls yes- but for broadband boxes I dont think it's all that much money really. They parse the data weather they have 10,000 or 10 million subs. So the only added cost for guide data per box is a a 5 or 10 second chunk of bandwidth to download it each a day- is that all that much? So there isn't so much money to save. Myself, I would hope most of their costs are related to R&D and new software feature development. So unless you want a Directv type box that never gets updates or new features you will need to pay to get the software upgraded over time. Look at the feature set increase on the series 2 from when the first ATT brand series 2 came out until now. I would hope over their lifetime the series 3 would make similar strides- someone has to pay for that.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

hancox said:


> that's the point. MC PC's get a cablecard interface soon (albeit maybe not until Vista is out, who knows...). Once this happens, the single biggest problem with MC goes away, and the ballgame changes...


and also Directv is working to have Directv Tuners for windows vista too.

I will GLADLY pay tivo $50 or $100 for a port of their software to run on windows vista or even with a linux distro they supply so I can pick and choose my own hardware. I'll keep paying the monthly tivo fee forever also. Since the LOOSE money on selling boxes with their software to consumers- i would think if they could get the colume it would be a no brainer.

Considering TiVo doesn't want to be in the hardware business I wonder if they ever thought of that?

Imagine every media center PC being sold having TiVo preinstalled and having a free three or six month sub to tivo just like they all come with AOL or antivirus....

I think I'd pee myself-LOL!


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I am still a 2 SA TiVO, 27" analog TV home. I figure I won't be buying my next TV at least for a year. That being said.....I would either look at the S3 TiVO, or, since I am a Comcast Customer (currently on the "lifeline" cable at $10/mo), I would heavily consider the Comcast DVR w/TiVO software when those start rolling out.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> Considering TiVo doesn't want to be in the hardware business I wonder if they ever thought of that?


ReplayTV is trying that, and I expect them to fail. I would also expect TiVo to have a hard time, and most likely fail.

Why? Because Vista will have all the media center support built in and people would have to go out of their way to buy a 3rd party add-on from TiVo, or anyone else, and it is highly unlikely many would when they have a fairly complete system 'free' in Vista. Same issue with people opting for the cheaper cable DVRs, etc. On top of that, the CableCARD tuners for PCs will only work with Vista, period. They will be cryptographically tied to the OS, and will not work with 3rd party software, Linux, etc. That's the plan anyway. Because, to be CableLabs certifed, the entire package - hardware and software - needs to be fixed and secure. That's why MS had to go through the process of getting Vista certified with the hardware. So at best you might be able to do a Vista Media Center plug-in to ride on top of that. I won't be surprised if DirecTV did the same thing if they do tuners for Vista.

Anyone trying to enter the PC DVR software market has a major uphill battle on their hands. Not only are there well established players, those players have the support of thriving 3rd party developer communities - add-ons, plug-ins, modules, etc. As well as established hacking communities. Any new entrant will be starting from scratch, and fighting for users with polished products with solid track records.

And then the entire market is being over-shadowed by MS with Vista. XP Media Center Edition started making some of the 3rd party vendors nervous, and it has impacted sales, but Vista will be worse since it looks like every PC sold will automagically be a media center PC - if it doesn't have a tuner you just need to add one, and I'm sure there will be plug-and-play USB units for Vista.

TiVo is better off pursuing cable partnerships like the one with Comcast.


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## TiVoMonkey (Jan 12, 2002)

tivohaydon said:


> I don't see any reason why TiVo should not be taking advantage of the program guide that is broadcast from the cable companies themselves. Unless their guide data doesn't go two weeks or has some other limitation that makes it an unsuitable replacement.


The CC enabled TV's that I have seen don't get their guide data from the cable company, and the Sony CC DVR doesn't get its guide data from the cable company either.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> Considering TiVo doesn't want to be in the hardware business I wonder if they ever thought of that?


They don't want to be in the business of maintaining a number of hardware platforms either. They would welcome 3rd party hardware vendors, if they would stick to something that doesn't deviate much from their reference platform, so it will be easy for them to modify their base software platform for it.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

MichaelK said:


> true- but the resale on ebay will be pretty good since it will work on any cable company with a decent lineup, unlike the directivos whcih are only as good as directv's linup and worthless anyplace else.


LOL! You haven't even bought it and you are thinking about selling it? 
Why would resale value be any better than DirecTiVo? At list with DirecTiVo there are no alternatives. With cable people have to justify buying used TiVo vs free cable company box. Jim is right - if your cable company does not offer good line-up or charges too much, it does not make you feel any better that you could use your TiVo someplace else in the country.


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