# analog tuner



## gl9500 (Jul 15, 2003)

I have two security camera that feeds thru an RF modulator into my Premiere (antenna input). Until a few days ago, it worked flawlessly. Now when I try to tune those analog channels (4 and 14, if that matters), I get "Searching for signal on this %s channel..."

Any ideas?
Thanks!


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Take the camera feed directly to a TV with an antenna input to see if there is indeed a signal going through.


----------



## gl9500 (Jul 15, 2003)

moyekj said:


> Take the camera feed directly to a TV with an antenna input to see if there is indeed a signal going through.


thanks... already verified that. it's definitely the tivo not recognizing the signal. i sent the signal to 2 different TVs just fine.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Did you get the recent 20.3.1 software update? Maybe that screwed something up.
Did you visit the Diagnostics page on the TiVo which has tuner information and see if there is anything interesting there? You may have to mess with signal levels either by boosting signal with an amp or attenuating the signal perhaps by going through a splitter. Tuners on the Premiere units are just not that great when it comes to dynamic range.
Also you didn't mention if you tried simply rebooting the TiVo.


----------



## gl9500 (Jul 15, 2003)

moyekj said:


> Did you get the recent 20.3.1 software update? Maybe that screwed something up.
> Did you visit the Diagnostics page on the TiVo which has tuner information and see if there is anything interesting there? You may have to mess with signal levels either by boosting signal with an amp or attenuating the signal perhaps by going through a splitter. Tuners on the Premiere units are just not that great when it comes to dynamic range.
> Also you didn't mention if you tried simply rebooting the TiVo.


I am now on 20.3.1, so that's probably it. (sucks!)

Thanks for your suggestions. I did reboot it after the first time I noticed it was wonky. And I just happened to have rebooted it again just before I read your last reply.

I did try adding an amp before, just tried it again at the end closest to the tivo. I tried swapping splitters and removing splitters.

I will note that I had an OTA antenna connected on the same analog line and it was tuning in the OTA digital stations correctly, so at least I know the tuner and plug do work. It does not seem to like the analog channels my security cam are on.

I check the Diagnostics and don't really know what to look for but I compared between one analog channel and one digital and nothing jumped out at me.
I've attached images (fwiw)...
IMG_0383.JPG
IMG_0384.JPG
IMG_0385.JPG

Thanks for the ideas!


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Does the TiVo have a CableCARD? If so it could be that those channels are no longer analog according to your CableCARD so it's trying to tune a QAM digital channel.


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Does the TiVo have a CableCARD? If so it could be that those channels are no longer analog according to your CableCARD so it's trying to tune a QAM digital channel.


A CableCARD has nothing to do with OTA channels.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> A CableCARD has nothing to do with OTA channels.


But since analog OTA channels no longer exist (except for a very few low-power stations that got grandfathered), the TiVo thinks (or thought) that this guy's security camera feed was analog cable channels, and if his cable lineup has changed lately, it might think they no longer exist.


----------



## gl9500 (Jul 15, 2003)

Yes, I do have one cablecard.

My diagnostics screens (posted earlier), if they are to be believed, say that the "CableCARD Association: None".

I also get the same "CableCARD Association: None" on a digital OTA channel that I *can* tune in.

FWIW, my 2 analog channels (4, 14) do exist in the Channel List as "antenna" with a * next to it saying they are scanned channels. I tried changing my modulator to a diff channel on UHF and CABLE bands but the tivo would not channel scan those. (I didn't bother trying Hr and Lr bands)

Thanks for the ideas everyone.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Have you tried doing a channel re-scan on the TiVo with active output from the modulator? The other thing you could try is see if you can connect modulator to cable input on the TiVo instead of antenna and see if you can then tune it.


----------



## gl9500 (Jul 15, 2003)

moyekj said:


> Have you tried doing a channel re-scan on the TiVo with active output from the modulator? The other thing you could try is see if you can connect modulator to cable input on the TiVo instead of antenna and see if you can then tune it.


I did try rescanning and the tivo did not find them, and at varying channel locations (even tho i know the signals are good and strong).

I was hoping to avoid merging the signals onto the cable input side, in part because i don't have filters to make sure the signal does not go back outside my house.

Thanks


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

unitron said:


> But since analog OTA channels no longer exist (except for a very few low-power stations that got grandfathered), the TiVo thinks (or thought) that this guy's security camera feed was analog cable channels, and if his cable lineup has changed lately, it might think they no longer exist.


No, the feed was analog OTA channels. The OTA connector and the cable connector are separate. These channels never "existed" in the first place.

I suspect that even if they were doing better testing than they are, this might still have "fallen through the cracks" as it were since, as you say, there are few analog OTA channels left.


----------



## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

Not that it helps, but this post in the 20.3.1 update thread confirms (to me at least) that the update did it to you:

"I've noticed one small oddity (OTA-only, currently SDUI): When I tune to a station with no signal, the message now reads "Searching for signal on this %s channel..." where it used to read "antenna channel". Something got garbled. "

The only difference is he said a channel with no signal, while you say you have confirmed a signal. But the message is the same.


----------



## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

WO312 said:


> Not that it helps, but this post in the 20.3.1 update thread confirms (to me at least) that the update did it to you:
> 
> "I've noticed one small oddity (OTA-only, currently SDUI): When I tune to a station with no signal, the message now reads "Searching for signal on this %s channel..." where it used to read "antenna channel". Something got garbled. "
> 
> The only difference is he said a channel with no signal, while you say you have confirmed a signal. But the message is the same.


It occurred to me later that the "%s" might be some kind of string variable (source maybe?) that didn't get replaced with "antenna" or "cable" because some bit of code didn't run. Your comment here makes me wonder if the same code that should have handled the string variable might also have failed to setup some data value used by the tuner chip.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It's possible TiVo somehow screwed up the ability of the OTA tuner to tune analog. Analog OTA channels are really rare so I could see something like that slipping through the beta.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I have a VCR with rf on channel 3 that I could use a signal source. Since I have no antenna right now, what would I lose if I re-ran setup to test the analog section of the tuner?


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Nothing. If you set it up as antenna + cable then you'll lose nothing.


----------



## phiggins (Jun 10, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> It's possible TiVo somehow screwed up the ability of the OTA tuner to tune analog. Analog OTA channels are really rare so I could see something like that slipping through the beta.


That would match my experience. I lost *all* my analog OTA channels a couple days ago. They come through on the TV just fine, but on my Premiere I get the message "Searching for a signal on this channel (V52)..."

I know analog OTA is "really rare" but my part of the US is still going through the analog-to-digital transition.

Thanks to this problem, my Premiere can no longer get Fox or PBS.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Report it. It's probably a bug and not intentional. Probably didn't get caught in beta because there was no one in the beta who had access to analog OTA.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> Report it. It's probably a bug and not intentional. Probably didn't get caught in beta because there was no one in the beta who had access to analog OTA.


I can donate some old VCRs with channel 3 outputs. They work. I can even add tapes of a test pattern.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

If the FCC approves then the next generation of TiVo wont support analog at all, so I doubt TiVo is putting much effort into analog recording right now. Probably just slipped through the cracks.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> If the FCC approves then the next generation of TiVo wont support analog at all, so I doubt TiVo is putting much effort into analog recording right now. Probably just slipped through the cracks.


I think we're missing the original post. There are no OTA analog channels in Chicago. Missing video data is from camera devices.


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> I think we're missing the original post. There are no OTA analog channels in Chicago. Missing video data is from camera devices.


Um, no. He's just explaining why reception of analog channels via the antenna might not have been tested.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah there appears to be a bug in the last software release which disabled analog input on the OTA port. I'm guessing that bug slipped through the beta because very few people have access to analog OTA and as such the chances of a beta tester actually finding that bug were slim.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah there appears to be a bug in the last software release which disabled analog input on the OTA port. I'm guessing that bug slipped through the beta because very few people have access to analog OTA and as such the chances of a beta tester actually finding that bug were slim.


As I posted on the TiVo site, I ran my cable to the ANT input, reran Guided Setup to enable OTA and my unit found channels 2 to 13. These are the same channels as OTA and I also ran them to my Sony DHG's ANT input with the same results. When scanning for channels I normally get 2-24 and 70 and 98 on the cable inputs of the Sony. All frequencies are correct.

I have five VCRs. Two are older and I use them to supply VBI information to the Sony. Three are digital and strip the VBI data perhaps for TBC use. I don't know. But with a firewire interface they can talk to each other. I will gladly send TiVo a VCR if it will help their testing.

The OP is in Chicago. Perhaps having the call letters of these analog FOX and PBS channels we can determine more information? It seems channels still sending analog have -LP in their call letters. The Chicago OTA channel for Fox is 1MW UHF.

Maybe he moved and never updated his/her location?


----------



## phiggins (Jun 10, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> The OP is in Chicago. Perhaps having the call letters of these analog FOX and PBS channels we can determine more information? It seems channels still sending analog have -LP in their call letters. The Chicago OTA channel for Fox is 1MW UHF.
> 
> Maybe he moved and never updated his/her location?


Yes, the OP is in Chicago. But he was having issues with two security camera feeds on the antenna input.

I chimed in saying I was also having a problem with analog channels on the antenna input. I'm in rural central Arizona where we still have analog broadcast stations, including local translators for the FOX and PBS affiliates in Phoenix. (We can't get the Phoenix signals because there are mountains in the way.) More specifically, I can no longer get K36AE or K42AC.

TiVo has asked me to do some more troubleshooting and has suggested that my Premiere's analog tuner may "have burned out." The troubleshooting will take some time and require some reconfiguration; I'm hoping to get to it this weekend.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Your two listed stations are in the FCC database as translators of KSAZ and KAET. Your problem sounds reasonable. The FCC does show both of these as digital however. I have a translator station about 20 miles away through two very high mountains and it is digital. We both live in the middle of nowhere. I don't know about Clarkdale, but my borough has a pop. of 4k and I have mountains everywhere.

I wasn't discounting your problem, but the chance of LP analog stations in Chicago are not very high. I can assume you sent the stations an email or called them, asking if they changed to digital? If they share a facility this would not be out of the range of possibilities and really bad timing.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

JoeKustra said:


> ...the chance of LP analog stations in Chicago are not very high....


Channels 22, 23, 33, 34,41,48

http://www.angelfire.com/wi/jrosin5765/tv/niltv.html


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

unitron said:


> Channels 22, 23, 33, 34,41,48
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/wi/jrosin5765/tv/niltv.html


I stand corrected. Very nice web site/document.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

JoeKustra said:


> I stand corrected. Very nice web site/document.


I figured Chicago would have enough "ethnic clusters" to make low power stations likely.


----------



## gl9500 (Jul 15, 2003)

gl9500 said:


> I did try rescanning and the tivo did not find them, and at varying channel locations (even tho i know the signals are good and strong).
> 
> I was hoping to avoid merging the signals onto the cable input side, in part because i don't have filters to make sure the signal does not go back outside my house.
> 
> Thanks


I finally got around to testing if I could feed my "analog security camera" channels (via RF modulator) as a cable channel (instead of OTA UHF), and it didn't work. I suspect it's the same "bug" and/or that I use a cablecard.

I guess I don't really understand how RF modulation works, because I tried to search the web for a DIGITAL modulator, but couldn't find one (or find one that wasn't really, really expensive)


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

AFAIK there is no such thing as a consumer grade QAM or ATSC modulator. There are a few "low cost" options in the professional space that some of the guys on AVSForum use for whole house distribution, but they're like $3-5K so probably not what you're looking for. 

You might be better off finding a cheap S2DT TiVo with lifetime and using that instead for the security cameras.


----------



## gl9500 (Jul 15, 2003)

Thanks Dan... yeah, $3-5K is just a wee bit too costly 

FWIW, I already do use a S1Tivo (with lifetime) for one of the security cameras, but then I take the channel 4 output from that into my Premier (which has a slingbox), yada yada...


----------



## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I bought a security camera DVR on woot.com that lets you record from 8 cameras at the same time (and included the 8 cameras) for like $150.


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

gl9500 said:


> I finally got around to testing if I could feed my "analog security camera" channels (via RF modulator) as a cable channel (instead of OTA UHF), and it didn't work. I suspect it's the same "bug" and/or that I use a cablecard.


The latter. You can't scan for cable channels if you have a CableCARD installed.


----------



## gl9500 (Jul 15, 2003)

FWIW, just for grins, I tried this again...
still does not work under the Fall 2013 update.
sucks that Tivo would just take away previous functionality
(and one of the reasons I bought this particular model)


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

The TiVo should tune NTSC signals on the cable tuner, 'cause that's what analog cable is, the same thing as over the air used to be (except for the carrier frequencies of some of the channels).

Of course if you're trying to use it for TV watching as well as camera recording that probably doesn't help you.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

unitron said:


> The TiVo should tune NTSC signals on the cable tuner, 'cause that's what analog cable is, the same thing as over the air used to be (except for the carrier frequencies of some of the channels).
> 
> Of course if you're trying to use it for TV watching as well as camera recording that probably doesn't help you.


Not all of them are lined up the same way. For the OP, it should be set up as cable, as that's what would be RF modulated. Who is watching analog anymore anyways? It must look horrible. If I had some back-asswards station that wasn't broadcasting HD by the early- to mid-2000's, I'd sure as heck have gotten DirecTV a long, long time ago!


----------



## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

unitron said:


> The TiVo should tune NTSC signals on the cable tuner, 'cause that's what analog cable is, the same thing as over the air used to be (except for the carrier frequencies of some of the channels).
> 
> Of course if you're trying to use it for TV watching as well as camera recording that probably doesn't help you.


The problem is, if you have a CableCard the channel map from the card overrides analog channel scanning. For example, my system has digital simulcast of all of the analog channels, so if I hit channel 2 on my TiVos with a CableCard, I get the digital equivalent of channel 2, not the actual analog signal.


----------

