# TiVo second quarter results are out



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

TiVo had a net loss of 20,000 retail subscriptions and a net gain of 283,000 MSO subscriptions. Total active retail subscriptions are down to 937,000 and total MSO subscriptions are up to 3,867,000.

Of the 937,000 active retail subscriptions, approximately 59% (556,000) are lifetime subs and 41% (381,000) are monthly subs.

http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=quarterlyearnings


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## drebbe (Apr 11, 2012)

I'll leave the discussion of the financials to other forums. From a product development perspective, I found this passage from the press release above to be the most interesting.

"..we recently reached a significant agreement whereby Comcast will ensure that our CableCARD-enabled devices will continue to have access to all linear channels and Xfinity On Demand in all digital Comcast markets and that Comcast will work with TiVo on a future two-way non-CableCARD security solution that will enable TiVo retail devices to access the full-Comcast lineup of linear and VOD programming. We anticipate that, at some point, Comcast will transition its delivery of cable signals to IP and this agreement assures that future TiVo devices will be able to receive all cable channels when that IP transition occurs. "


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

It'd be interesting to know how many monthly subs they see convert to MSO subscriptions. I'd consider it over my current setup that requires a tuning adapter.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> It'd be interesting to know how many monthly subs they see convert to MSO subscriptions. I'd consider it over my current setup that requires a tuning adapter.


I doubt it's a very significant number since all of their retail subs are in the U.S. and most of their MSO subs are international.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

drebbe said:


> I'll leave the discussion of the financials to other forums. From a product development perspective, I found this passage from the press release above to be the most interesting.
> 
> "..we recently reached a significant agreement whereby Comcast will ensure that our CableCARD-enabled devices will continue to have access to all linear channels and Xfinity On Demand in all digital Comcast markets and that Comcast will work with TiVo on a future two-way non-CableCARD security solution that will enable TiVo retail devices to access the full-Comcast lineup of linear and VOD programming. We anticipate that, at some point, Comcast will transition its delivery of cable signals to IP and this agreement assures that future TiVo devices will be able to receive all cable channels when that IP transition occurs. "


If they lose 20k subs per quarter, Comcast will only need to honor the deal for at most 12 more years. I guess 20k is less than the 26k 1 year ago.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

drebbe said:


> I'll leave the discussion of the financials to other forums. From a product development perspective, I found this passage from the press release above to be the most interesting.
> 
> "..we recently reached a significant agreement whereby Comcast will ensure that our CableCARD-enabled devices will continue to have access to all linear channels and Xfinity On Demand in all digital Comcast markets and that Comcast will work with TiVo on a future two-way non-CableCARD security solution that will enable TiVo retail devices to access the full-Comcast lineup of linear and VOD programming. We anticipate that, at some point, Comcast will transition its delivery of cable signals to IP and this agreement assures that future TiVo devices will be able to receive all cable channels when that IP transition occurs. "





jwbelcher said:


> If they lose 20k subs per quarter, Comcast will only need to honor the deal for at most 12 more years. I guess 20k is less than the 26k 1 year ago.


They would only need to honor it until 2018 when the main TiVo patents expire. Once the patents expire, Comcast probably won't be so generous.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> They would only need to honor it until 2018 when the main TiVo patents expire. Once the patents expire, Comcast probably won't be so generous.


Or until they no longer need their support for the TWC merger

http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/26/netflix-fcc-petition-time-warner-cable-comcast/

Its notable TiVo's one of the few supporting the merger. In someways, as a TiVo user stuck with CCI flags and a TA, I'd like to see the merger. Its about the only scenario where I can see TiVo users with TWC receiving relief from the use of copy once flags and tuning adapters. Even then, it'll probably be years before they start to see those benefits.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> Or until they no longer need their support for the TWC merger
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/26/netflix-fcc-petition-time-warner-cable-comcast/
> 
> Its notable TiVo's one of the few supporting the merger. In someways, as a TiVo user stuck with CCI flags and a TA, I'd like to see the merger. Its about the only scenario where I can see TiVo users with TWC receiving relief from the use of copy once flags and tuning adapters. Even then, it'll probably be years before they start to see those benefits.


The CCI flags could probably be removed fairly quickly after a merger. Tuning adapters and SDV would definitely take longer. And I'm not convinced that Comcast would actually bother with getting rid of SDV on all TWC systems. In fact, I could envision post-merger scenarios where TWC could influence Comcast to deploy SDV on their own systems.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I am wondering if Comcast wants to encourage other access devices just to provide competition for ATV.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The CCI flags could probably be removed fairly quickly after a merger. Tuning adapters and SDV would definitely take longer. And I'm not convinced that Comcast would actually bother with getting rid of SDV on all TWC systems. In fact, I could envision post-merger scenarios where TWC could influence Comcast to deploy SDV on their own systems.


I'd expect the CCI flags would remain on until TWC program licensing with the content owners are renewed / renegotiated. Similar to your TA argument, I could see Comcast adopting CCI restrictions as their content ownership is growing. It likely one of the reasons TWC began using them under TW ownership. Anyway I still have hope that TWC franchises would adopt Comcast's TiVo friendly technologies and practices. One thing for sure, the merger is the best shot TWC subs have at the moment...


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> I'd expect the CCI flags would remain on until TWC program licensing with the content owners are renewed / renegotiated.


TWC flags everything except the broadcast networks. I have a hard time believing that their licensing agreements with every single non-broadcast channel includes a clause that says they have to put the CCI flags on those channels. I would guess that many of the channels that TWC flags are just done as a matter of their own policy and are not necessarily required by their license agreements.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> I would guess that many of the channels that TWC flags are just done as a matter of their own policy and are not necessarily required by their license agreements.


agreed


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

tarheelblue32 said:


> TWC flags everything except the broadcast networks. I have a hard time believing that their licensing agreements with every single non-broadcast channel includes a clause that says they have to put the CCI flags on those channels. I would guess that many of the channels that TWC flags are just done as a matter of their own policy and are not necessarily required by their license agreements.


this

There is a big thread here where this is discussed extensively, if anyone wants to see the gory details:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=434742
In their official public statements TWC has **never** stated that their programmer agreements **require** them to copy protect. Rather they state that their copy protection is **consistent** with their programmer agreements. This is clever lawyer weasel wording that they hope will be interpreted as meaning their programmers insist on this copy protection. You can see examples of their statements in the linked thread.

From the perspective of the programmers and MSO's I'm surprised that all MSO's don't copy protect like TWC does. The ability to make TTG copies of video content provides an obvious easy pirating mechanism.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo had a net loss of 20,000 retail subscriptions and a net gain of 283,000 MSO subscriptions. Total active retail subscriptions are down to 937,000 and total MSO subscriptions are up to 3,867,000.
> 
> Of the 937,000 active retail subscriptions, approximately 59% (556,000) are lifetime subs and 41% (381,000) are monthly subs.
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=quarterlyearnings


I would like to know how many of the 20,000 retail subscriptions loss came from Lifetime TiVos that had been written off in this time period. 
I would also like to know how many active Lifetime TiVos are still being used that is not part of the 937,000 retail subscriptions as it does cost TiVo some money to service these written off Lifetime TiVos for guide data and server bandwidth, on the other side does TiVo earn any revenue from these Lifetime TiVos still in use from ads and other data of watching habits of the users.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

lessd said:


> I would like to know how many of the 20,000 retail subscriptions loss came from Lifetime TiVos that had been written off in this time period.


I don't think TiVo breaks down into that much detail.

However, my guess is the digital transition that most of the cable companies are doing throughout the US is killing off a bunch of the older TiVos. I would be willing to bet most of the losses are coming from older S2 TiVos.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lessd said:


> I would like to know how many of the 20,000 retail subscriptions loss came from Lifetime TiVos that had been written off in this time period.
> I would also like to know how many active Lifetime TiVos are still being used that is not part of the 937,000 retail subscriptions as it does cost TiVo some money to service these written off Lifetime TiVos for guide data and server bandwidth, on the other side does TiVo earn any revenue from these Lifetime TiVos still in use from ads and other data of watching habits of the users.


If a TiVo doesn't call into the mother ship for a period of time (I think it is 6 months) then it is no longer considered an "active subscription". If a TiVo doesn't call in for that long, I think it is pretty safe to assume that it is sitting in a closet somewhere not being used.

"Fully amortized active lifetime subscriptions" dropped by 2,000 in the quarter, so 10% of the drop in active retail subscriptions can be attributed to that. I think they amortize lifetime subs over a 3 year period. That doesn't really tell you everything though, since some lifetime subs aged into that category during the quarter and other lifetime subs can become inactive before hitting the fully amortized milestone.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

drebbe said:


> I'll leave the discussion of the financials to other forums. From a product development perspective, I found this passage from the press release above to be the most interesting.
> 
> "..we recently reached a significant agreement whereby Comcast will ensure that our CableCARD-enabled devices will continue to have access to all linear channels and Xfinity On Demand in all digital Comcast markets and that Comcast will work with TiVo on a future two-way non-CableCARD security solution that will enable TiVo retail devices to access the full-Comcast lineup of linear and VOD programming. We anticipate that, at some point, Comcast will transition its delivery of cable signals to IP and this agreement assures that future TiVo devices will be able to receive all cable channels when that IP transition occurs. "


So how do I get access to On Demand from my cable-card TiVo HD?


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

answered my own question.....

Upgrade to either premier or Roamio


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

rainwater said:


> I don't think TiVo breaks down into that much detail.
> 
> However, my guess is the digital transition that most of the cable companies are doing throughout the US is killing off a bunch of the older TiVos. I would be willing to bet most of the losses are coming from older S2 TiVos.


By now all Lifetime Series 2s have been written off so that not the answer, the answer comes from all HD TiVos (not the TiVo-HD) as the first ones came out in 2006 and the write down time is 3 or 4 years so all the Series 3 TiVos and most of the TiVo-HD units are no longer in the 900K TiVos that TiVo has said they were getting income from.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> If a TiVo doesn't call into the mother ship for a period of time (I think it is 6 months) then it is no longer considered an "active subscription". If a TiVo doesn't call in for that long, I think it is pretty safe to assume that it is sitting in a closet somewhere not being used.
> 
> "Fully amortized active lifetime subscriptions" dropped by 2,000 in the quarter, so 10% of the drop in active retail subscriptions can be attributed to that. I think they amortize lifetime subs over a 3 year period. That doesn't really tell you everything though, since some lifetime subs aged into that category during the quarter and other lifetime subs can become inactive before hitting the fully amortized milestone.


I thought the period was longer than 3 years?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> I thought the period was longer than 3 years?


It could be. I'm not exactly sure how long it is. 3 years was my guesstimate. It could be 4 or 5 years.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It could be. I'm not exactly sure how long it is. 3 years was my guesstimate. It could be 4 or 5 years.


I recall reading in their annual 10-k filing it was 5 years but was increased to 5 1/2 years back in Nov 2011.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

jwbelcher said:


> I recall reading in their annual 10-k filing it was 5 years but was increased to 5 1/2 years back in Nov 2011.


Correct. 66 months.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

lessd said:


> By now all Lifetime Series 2s have been written off so that not the answer, the answer comes from all HD TiVos (not the TiVo-HD) as the first ones came out in 2006 and the write down time is 3 or 4 years so all the Series 3 TiVos and most of the TiVo-HD units are no longer in the 900K TiVos that TiVo has said they were getting income from.


I'm confused by what you are saying. Most subs are not lifetime subs. Because of the digital transition, I'm guessing a major portion of the S2s are now paper weights and the account holders have now cancelled.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

rainwater said:


> I'm confused by what you are saying. Most subs are not lifetime subs. Because of the digital transition, I'm guessing a major portion of the S2s are now paper weights and the account holders have now cancelled.


I was referring to your post #15 about the loss from Series 2 TiVos in this Thread, so I do agree with your above statement.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

drebbe said:


> I'll leave the discussion of the financials to other forums. From a product development perspective, I found this passage from the press release above to be the most interesting.
> 
> "..we recently reached a significant agreement whereby Comcast will ensure that our CableCARD-enabled devices will continue to have access to all linear channels and Xfinity On Demand in all digital Comcast markets and that Comcast will work with TiVo on a future two-way non-CableCARD security solution that will enable TiVo retail devices to access the full-Comcast lineup of linear and VOD programming. We anticipate that, at some point, Comcast will transition its delivery of cable signals to IP and this agreement assures that future TiVo devices will be able to receive all cable channels when that IP transition occurs. "


So that leave Cox and other subscribers with a brick.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo had a net loss of 20,000 retail subscriptions and a net gain of 283,000 MSO subscriptions. Total active retail subscriptions are down to 937,000 and total MSO subscriptions are up to 3,867,000.
> 
> Of the 937,000 active retail subscriptions, approximately 59% (556,000) are lifetime subs and 41% (381,000) are monthly subs.
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=quarterlyearnings


My read on the report is that 49% (459,000) of TiVo's retail subs are paying recurring fees. 159,000 of TiVo's lifetime subs are fully amortized.










Also,



> We count product lifetime subscriptions in our subscription base until both of the following conditions are met: (i) the period we use to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues ends; and (ii) the related TiVoenabled device has not made contact to the TiVo service within the prior six month period. Product lifetime subscriptions past this period which have not called into the TiVo service for six months are not counted in this total.


One other item probably worth mentioning from the call is related to retail total acquisition costs. Quarterly total acquisition costs decreased from $5.6mn ($278 SAC) in Q2F14 to $3.9mn ($146 SAC) in Q2F15. The figure below illustrates a few other insights from the data. MSO hardware margin remained solid at 27%. Retail hardware subsidy went up by about 20% to $101/sub likely reflecting a mix shift towards the more subsidized box although at the same time the average retail box cost increased to $285/sub.










More details can be found here --> http://investordiscussionboard.com/boards/tivo/deeper-look-tivos-q2f15-earnings


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

They count lifetime Minis as lifetime subscriptions. And so it is kind of amazing retail numbers haven't started going back up since the Mini was introduced.

I just got a Roamio Plus and 2 Minis with lifetime. That is 3 lifetime subscriptions.


I would think the retail numbers will start to reverse if they can get the price down on the Roamios and Minis. 

But as it stands it is such a huge proposition for consumers to spend $1k+ to get boxes for 3 tvs.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> They count lifetime Minis as lifetime subscriptions. And so it is kind of amazing retail numbers haven't started going back up since the Mini was introduced.
> 
> I just got a Roamio Plus and 2 Minis with lifetime. That is 3 lifetime subscriptions.
> 
> ...


TiVo is forecasting retail net additions later this year.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

sbiller said:


> TiVo is forecasting retail net additions later this year.


Any idea how many additions will be Romios and how many will be Minis? There's a big difference in price, isn't there?


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> They count lifetime Minis as lifetime subscriptions. And so it is kind of amazing retail numbers haven't started going back up since the Mini was introduced.
> 
> I just got a Roamio Plus and 2 Minis with lifetime. That is 3 lifetime subscriptions.
> 
> ...


DirecTV gave me a Genie for free and waived the $6 monthly rental charge in exchange for a two year commitment. That includes whole home.

Even paying the $6 a month rental fee, it would take 16 years to break even if buying the TiVo.

To each his own, but why should anyone be surprised that they're losing subs?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> DirecTV gave me a Genie for free and waived the $6 monthly rental charge in exchange for a two year commitment. That includes whole home.
> 
> Even paying the $6 a month rental fee, it would take 16 years to break even if buying the TiVo.
> 
> To each his own, but why should anyone be surprised that they're losing subs?


?

I said why it is surprising. I would think the Minis, being only $250 per at the most, would have resulted in more households having more than one lifetime sub per household since the Minis are counted as a lifetime sub just a Roamio or Premiere is. But even the addition of the Mini hasn't turned the tide.

I also said that if prices drop, which they will here soon given the length of time the Roamio and Mini have been on the market, that the drop in retail numbers should reverse because the high up front cost doesn't help sales. So between the Minis and a lower price I would think numbers would start to reverse.

I'm not sure where you get this $6/month figure. Are you saying the whole home dvr for DirectTV is only $6/month even after 2 years?!??? That doesn't sound right to me. I haven't heard of a provider renting dvrs for $6/month regular price.

But otherwise I get that most people don't like paying a lot of money up front for a dvr system when they can pay nothing from a provider but a much smaller monthly rental fee and then not have to worry about equipment going bad or anything.


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## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

Banker257 said:


> DirecTV gave me a Genie for free and waived the $6 monthly rental charge in exchange for a two year commitment. That includes whole home.
> 
> Even paying the $6 a month rental fee, it would take 16 years to break even if buying the TiVo.
> 
> To each his own, but why should anyone be surprised that they're losing subs?


Not trying to hijack the thread but would be interested in your Tivo Vs. Genie comparisons...


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> ?
> 
> I said why it is surprising. I would think the Minis, being only $250 per at the most, would have resulted in more households having more than one lifetime sub per household since the Minis are counted as a lifetime sub just a Roamio or Premiere is. But even the addition of the Mini hasn't turned the tide.
> 
> ...


Yes, six dollars for whole home along with HD for life, Sunday Ticket free this year and next and a $10 credit per month credit for using a friend as a referral.

I don't know what it will cost 2 years from now but if it's ridiculous I'll leave or leverage another provider against them.

My total bill is just under $90 a month.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

dave13077 said:


> Not trying to hijack the thread but would be interested in your Tivo Vs. Genie comparisons...


This was comparing the HR 44 to the Premiere XL

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10200578#post10200578


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> I don't know what it will cost 2 years from now ...


lol well do you realize you just tried to make some argument about not breaking even on the cost of a Tivo at $6/month over 16 years!???

Now you are admitting you don't know what the cost of your DirectTV dvr will be after 2 years. (Makes me wonder if the DirectTV rental price won't be changing after year 1 as most of these satellite deals get worse after that time period.)

I hope you see the problem there.



Banker257 said:


> but if it's ridiculous I'll leave or leverage another provider against them.


This is a point that makes sense and that I can get behind. Not only do many providers give you a dvr for free the 1st year, but you also save a bundle on the monthly regular price. The savings far eclipses what happens if you stick with Tivo and 1 cable provider long term.

Actually makes me think I should return/sell my recently bought Roamio and Minis and go with DTV for 2 years. I'm going to look at the math for that in my neck of the woods and whether my trees would block satellite or not.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> lol well do you realize you just tried to make some argument about not breaking even on the cost of a Tivo at $6/month over 16 years!???[/QUOTE
> 
> No argument, just fact. IF I payed $6 a month for a DirecTv DVR, which I don't it would take 16 years to make my money back.
> 
> ...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> No argument, just fact. IF I payed $6 a month for a DirecTv DVR, which I don't it would take 16 years to make my money back.
> 
> You are saying I'm admitting I don't know what they might attempt to charge me after my contract is up, and I will no longer be legally bound to them?
> 
> ...


You said it would take 16 years to break even on a Tivo at the $6/month that you pay for your DirectTV dvr setup.

Do you not see that using the temporary DTV promotional price and extrapolating it 16 years is a problem for that statement?


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> You said it would take 16 years to break even on a Tivo at the $6/month that you pay for your DirectTV dvr setup.
> 
> Do you not see that using the temporary DTV promotional price and extrapolating it 16 years is a problem for that statement?


Here is my original post.

"DirecTV gave me a Genie for free and waived the $6 monthly rental charge in exchange for a two year commitment. That includes whole home.

Even paying the $6 a month rental fee, it would take 16 years to break even if buying the TiVo. "

Where did I say it was a tempory price?


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

Banker257 said:


> Where did I say it was a tempory price?


Where you said "We have a contract that states they won't charge me a monthy fee for 2 years". The implication being that they will start charging a monthly fee after 2 years.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Banker257 said:


> Yes, six dollars for whole home along with HD for life, Sunday Ticket free this year and next and a $10 credit per month credit for using a friend as a referral.
> 
> My total bill is just under $90 a month.


This reminds me of the person who orders a diet soda with their triple cheese burger fast food meal. They are still consuming a large amount of calories and you are still paying a large amount of money every month.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

For customers who signed up prior to July 24th, 2014 the monthly fees that almost any DirecTV account will incur are:

Whole Home DVR fee: $3/month*
Advanced Receiver fee: $10/month*
HD fee: $10/month*
Outlet fee: $6/month (credited back for the first outlet)

* More recent customers (I don't recall the start date) had all 3 fees rolled up into a single $25 charge.


As of July 24, DirecTV stopped doing new SD installs and dropped the HD fee. The new pricing is:

Advanced Receiver Fee: $15 (includes DVR service and Whole Home)
Outlet fee: $6 (credit for first outlet has been eliminated)

So, the only $6 fee is the outlet fee. I don't know when Banker257 signed up, but is sounds like it was under the new pricing (hence the "HD free for life" which ALL new customers are getting). It sounds like they are just crediting back the "first outlet" fee like they used to. The $10/month "refer a friend" discount only applies for 10 months, at which time his bill will go up to $100/month.

However, it is all an apples and oranges comparison to a TiVo. The Genie remains the property of DirecTV and must be returned if service is discontinued, while you own your TiVos. Whatever initial cost you pay for a TiVo should be reduced by whatever residual value the DVR has at the end of the analysis period.

The equivalent to a Genie is a Roamio Plus, so figure out what a Roamio Plus will be worth in two years, subtract that from the purchase price, add in programming and other fees from both DirecTV and your cable company and see which one comes out cheaper.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> For customers who signed up prior to July 24th, 2014 the monthly fees that almost any DirecTV account will incur are:
> 
> Whole Home DVR fee: $3/month*
> Advanced Receiver fee: $10/month*
> ...


The problem here, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, is that DirectTV just resign to offer the TiVo and could offer the Roamio Plus, but offer an inferior box because they know people would drop the POS of Genie box in a heartbeat.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Johncv said:


> The problem here, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, is that DirectTV just resign to offer the TiVo and could offer the Roamio Plus, but offer an inferior box because they know people would drop the POS of Genie box in a heartbeat.


The Genie is not a POS. It works quite well, as do the associated mini clients. The biggest difference is that the Genies do not have any streaming apps.

The current Directv TiVos are running very limited versions of the software...no whole home, for example. Why that is has been blamed on TiVo at times and Directv other times. IMHO, the Directv TiVo exists only as a cheaper way for DirecTV to get access to TiVo's patents.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

Diana Collins said:


> The Genie is not a POS.


 Wait until AT&T gets a hold of it...


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## aridon (Aug 31, 2006)

Banker257 said:


> DirecTV gave me a Genie for free and waived the $6 monthly rental charge in exchange for a two year commitment. That includes whole home.
> 
> Even paying the $6 a month rental fee, it would take 16 years to break even if buying the TiVo.
> 
> To each his own, but why should anyone be surprised that they're losing subs?


The primary receiver is always free so them waiving something already free isn't exactly a deal.

In addition, you pay the advanced receiver fee of $25 per month for having the HR44.

The HR44 is a very good box. Rivals the Tivo minus a tuner in every way except streaming apps and in some ways (dvr functions) is better. D* just happens to be very expensive once the promos run out and people can't math and would rather make a payment than pay for something up front and use it.

My hope is Tivo can get themselves on Comcast and the other big boys so they can remain relevant. Being a tiny fish in a big pond is dangerous and their retail business has been leaking subs for a long time now. Short of a miracle in the retail market that leaves getting in bed with the cable companies and offering their boxes / services through them. While there are enough small players to keep tivo rolling it would be nice to not see them teetering on the edge irrelevancy before their big patents expire in a few years.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Johncv said:


> The problem here, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, is that DirectTV just resign to offer the TiVo and could offer the Roamio Plus, but offer an inferior box because they know people would drop the POS of Genie box in a heartbeat.


Genie a POS? LOL!! You don't know what your talking about. Trust me, I know what a POS is, I had a Premiere XL .


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> Genie a POS? LOL!! You don't know what your talking about. Trust me, I know what a POS is, I had a Premiere XL .


NO, you don't, the Premiere has been update to the Roamia interface and the TiVo give you MORE information then the POS of a Genie of a box.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

aridon said:


> The primary receiver is always free so them waiving something already free isn't exactly a deal.
> 
> In addition, you pay the advanced receiver fee of $25 per month for having the HR44...


Not any longer. New customers pay no HD fee, so the Advanced Receiver Fee is now only $15. The primary receiver for those customers is also no longer free, you pay $6 just like all the rest.

So, for a new customer, the add-on fees are $4 less than for a customer that signed up before July 24th.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Johncv said:


> NO, you don't, the Premiere has been update to the Roamia interface and the TiVo give you MORE information then the POS of a Genie of a box.


The opinion of one user of both systems....

Things that DirecTV does better than TiVo:

- unified play list (multiple DVRs pool their recorded programs into a single list visible from any viewing location)
- "far in the future" recordings (schedule season passes even when the program is not in the guide) - this is not a wishlist, it is for a specific program on a specific channel
- automatic padding (automatically starts recordings early and ends them late when the tuner is available)
- disk expansion (Genies will accept any SATA drive, the 2 tuner DVRs have a 3TB limit)

Things that TiVo does better than DirecTV:

- smoother and more reliable trick play
- integration of online services
- overall performance (DirecTV DVRs, except the HR44 Genie, are generally slow)
- lifetime service fee (DirectTV has no way to avoid a monthly DVR fee)


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Banker257 said:


> Yes, six dollars for whole home along with HD for life, Sunday Ticket free this year and next and a $10 credit per month credit for using a friend as a referral.
> 
> I don't know what it will cost 2 years from now but if it's ridiculous I'll leave or leverage another provider against them.
> 
> My total bill is just under $90 a month.


$90 just for tv? And you call that a deal? 

I have the HD Preferred Triple Play from Comcast with includes HD Preferred tier (with one HD STB and two cable cards), HBO, Starz, Streampix, 105/20 internet and unlimited phone. I'm paying $110.49 per month out the door with all taxes and fees for 12 months. And I have no contract with a $25 per month increase coming for months 13 - 24. Now that's a deal! 

This is why I left Dish for cable. There is no way to save on equipment fees using satellite (which can easily run to 25% of the final cost using a Genie or Hopper system). If Comcast screws me, I have a cable overbuilder available to switch to (Wide Open West).


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

moedaman said:


> $90 just for tv? And you call that a deal?
> 
> I have the HD Preferred Triple Play from Comcast with includes HD Preferred tier (with one HD STB and two cable cards), HBO, Starz, Streampix, 105/20 internet and unlimited phone. I'm paying $110.49 per month out the door with all taxes and fees for 12 months. And I have no contract with a $25 per month increase coming for months 13 - 24. Now that's a deal!
> 
> This is why I left Dish for cable. There is no way to save on equipment fees using satellite (which can easily run to 25% of the final cost using a Genie or Hopper system). If Comcast screws me, I have a cable overbuilder available to switch to (Wide Open West).


How much does Comcast charge you for Sunday Ticket?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

moedaman said:


> $90 just for tv? And you call that a deal?
> 
> I have the HD Preferred Triple Play from Comcast with includes HD Preferred tier (with one HD STB and two cable cards), HBO, Starz, Streampix, 105/20 internet and unlimited phone. I'm paying $110.49 per month out the door with all taxes and fees for 12 months. And I have no contract with a $25 per month increase coming for months 13 - 24. Now that's a deal!


Wait till your two years are up and your bill shoots up to over $200 a month. Comcast has the best deals, but only if you are a new customer.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Banker257 said:


> How much does Comcast charge you for Sunday Ticket?


Not really a NFL fan, so your point doesn't matter. And even if I was, Sunday Ticket sure isn't worth the premium when there are 5 - 7 games (3 or 4 that aren't available on Sunday Ticket) per week on other channels and when Redzone is available with other providers. The price you pay for DirecTV, shows me that Sunday Ticket isn't really free.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

morac said:


> Wait till your two years are up and your bill shoots up to over $200 a month. Comcast has the best deals, but only if you are a new customer.


Like I said, I have the advantage of having a cable overbuilder in the area. I'm not under contract, so I can leave at anytime and come back for a new customer deal after a few months. If I was still subscribing to Dish, I would paying over $200 right now for an equivalent tv package plus internet/phone from another provider.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

moedaman said:


> Not really a NFL fan, so your point doesn't matter. And even if I was, Sunday Ticket sure isn't worth the premium when there are 5 - 7 games (3 or 4 that aren't available on Sunday Ticket) per week on other channels and when Redzone is available with other providers. The price you pay for DirecTV, shows me that Sunday Ticket isn't really free.


My point doesn't matter? You insinuated that I wasn't getting a good deal and when called out that's all you got?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Banker257 said:


> How much does Comcast charge you for Sunday Ticket?


How much does DirecTV charge you for your Internet connection?


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Diana Collins said:


> The opinion of one user of both systems....
> 
> Things that DirecTV does better than TiVo:
> 
> ...


Diana,
I do believe the far in the future recording schedule is coming with the Fall Update.
Jason Nealis of RCN mentions it in post about the update to their TiVos. This will include the summer update we got in July.
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r29495004-
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r29374563-TiVo-TiVo-Premiere-Summer-Update


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

nrc said:


> How much does DirecTV charge you for your Internet connection?


Nothing. What does my Internet connection have to do with my TV bill?


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Banker257 said:


> My point doesn't matter? You insinuated that I wasn't getting a good deal and when called out that's all you got?


Sunday Ticket doesn't matter to me, so getting it doesn't seem like a good deal to me. I did point out that Redzone combined with 5 - 7 games per week is a pretty good replacement for people who don't want to pay the NFL tax that DirecTV's higher rates reflect. If I really wanted Sunday Ticket, I could get it through my nephew, who is a student at the University of Michigan. 


Banker257 said:


> Nothing. What does my Internet connection have to do with my TV bill?


Because you're probably paying a premium price on internet service by not getting a double or triple play package. You feel that you're getting a deal on Sunday Ticket, but I'm getting a deal on internet/phone (which I use seven days a week, 52 weeks a year, not just one day a week for a limited time). Hell, I could buy the internet version of Sunday Ticket (through my nephew) and still pay less than you for tv and internet.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Banker257 said:


> How much does Comcast charge you for Sunday Ticket?


It costs the same as Directv customers to get it on my Xbox. "Free" Sunday Ticket is only for new customers.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

rainwater said:


> It costs the same as Directv customers to get it on my Xbox. "Free" Sunday Ticket is only for new customers.


Not true. I wasn't a new customer. So far the only people that claim I don't "get this" or "I don't get that" are not current DirecTv customers and have no idea what one can get for "free". All it takes is a phone call and a two year commitment.

That's a fact.

My original point was the reason TiVo is losing retail customers in droves is because of the ridiculous up front cost of hardware and service when compared to what one can get for free and little to no service fee.

So far, nobody has had a compelling argument otherwise.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> Not true. I wasn't a new customer. So far the only people that claim I don't "get this" or "I don't get that" are not current DirecTv customers and have no idea what one can get for "free". All it takes is a phone call and a two year commitment.
> 
> That's a fact.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely correct in that the upfront cost is what discourages new TiVo subscriptions, however that is just perception, not fact. We only left DirecTV (after almost 13 years) because by buying TiVos (despite the "ridiculous up front cost of hardware and service") we could save over $100 per month over the monthly equipment rental fees charged by all providers. We will break even on the "upfront" costs of hardware and lifetime service in 17 months, after which the monthly savings go straight into our pocket. If the resale value of the hardware is considered, then break even comes at least 5 months earlier.

So, while the high upfront cost is a factor, if one "runs the numbers" over a 24 month period, I think a lot of people would discover that that "free" equipment isn't such a great deal. For folks with just one or perhaps two viewing locations, it probably makes sense to take the provider's equipment, since it would take much longer to break even. But for us, with 7 viewing locations, it made enormous sense.

It is this purely psychological obstacle that TiVo is trying to address with their low upfront but higher monthly payment experiments.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Banker257 said:


> My original point was the reason TiVo is losing retail customers in droves is because of the ridiculous up front cost of hardware and service when compared to what one can get for free and little to no service fee.
> 
> So far, nobody has had a compelling argument otherwise.


That is a reason, but it is not the only reason. As others have pointed out, if you run the numbers over the long term, TiVo will usually be cheaper than renting provider equipment over 2 or 3 years.

But another big problem for TiVo is that many people just don't know they have any option other than to take the MSO's DVRs and cable boxes, and the cable companies sure as hell aren't about to tell them they have other options. And even people who may know they have the option of TiVo just don't want to deal with the hassles involved with getting CableCards and Tuning Adapters to work properly. Not everyone is technically inclined, and just taking the MSO's equipment is definitely the path of least resistance.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> That is a reason, but it is not the only reason. As others have pointed out, if you run the numbers over the long term, TiVo will usually be cheaper than renting provider equipment over 2 or 3 years.
> 
> But another big problem for TiVo is that many people just don't know they have any option other than to take the MSO's DVRs and cable boxes, and the cable companies sure as hell aren't about to tell them they have other options. And even people who may know they have the option of TiVo just don't want to deal with the hassles involved with getting CableCards and Tuning Adapters to work properly. Not everyone is technically inclined, and just taking the MSO's equipment is definitely the path of least resistance.


Even the technically inclined, such as yours truly, does not want to deal with the hassle of CableCards and TAs. It is worth paying extra to insure the shows you want recorded actually record. Of course, in my case, TWCs Navigator/SDV combo is just as bad as their buggy CC/TA combo, and both are more expensive than Satellite at the end of the day. Not that it matters if the product doesn't work. I think Tivo has the right ideas if they want to increase retail sales: 1. OTA Tivo (yes, many people will buy it) 2. Partner with Comcast, etc. to get rid of CC/TA mess.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Diana Collins said:


> You are absolutely correct in that the upfront cost is what discourages new TiVo subscriptions, however that is just perception, not fact. We only left DirecTV (after almost 13 years) because by buying TiVos (despite the "ridiculous up front cost of hardware and service") we could save over $100 per month over the monthly equipment rental fees charged by all providers. We will break even on the "upfront" costs of hardware and lifetime service in 17 months, after which the monthly savings go straight into our pocket. If the resale value of the hardware is considered, then break even comes at least 5 months earlier.
> 
> So, while the high upfront cost is a factor, if one "runs the numbers" over a 24 month period, I think a lot of people would discover that that "free" equipment isn't such a great deal. For folks with just one or perhaps two viewing locations, it probably makes sense to take the provider's equipment, since it would take much longer to break even. But for us, with 7 viewing locations, it made enormous sense.
> 
> It is this purely psychological obstacle that TiVo is trying to address with their low upfront but higher monthly payment experiments.


Wow! 7 locations? How many people need 7 locations? 

I'm lost here...

If you get a free Genie from DirecTV, and even if you get charged the $6 a month service fee, how do you figure after 2 years you'd save money buying a $1000 lifetimed TiVo?


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Diana Collins said:


> You are absolutely correct in that the upfront cost is what discourages new TiVo subscriptions, however that is just perception, not fact. We only left DirecTV (after almost 13 years) because by buying TiVos (despite the "ridiculous up front cost of hardware and service") we could save over $100 per month over the monthly equipment rental fees charged by all providers. We will break even on the "upfront" costs of hardware and lifetime service in 17 months, after which the monthly savings go straight into our pocket. If the resale value of the hardware is considered, then break even comes at least 5 months earlier.
> 
> So, while the high upfront cost is a factor, if one "runs the numbers" over a 24 month period, I think a lot of people would discover that that "free" equipment isn't such a great deal. For folks with just one or perhaps two viewing locations, it probably makes sense to take the provider's equipment, since it would take much longer to break even. But for us, with 7 viewing locations, it made enormous sense.
> 
> It is this purely psychological obstacle that TiVo is trying to address with their low upfront but higher monthly payment experiments.


You made you curious, I ran the numbers on your setup and this is what I come up with...

2 Romio Pro's with lifetime service = $2000
5 Minis with lifetime service = $1250

Total of $3250 up front, not including any Cable Card, Tuning Adapter or Cable Programing at all. That's nothing but money spent on a DVR.

That works out to about $100 a month for two years. Oh, and if breaks, you get to start all over again since lifetime is tied to the box's lifetime not your lifetime.

You don't think thats ridiculous? That's a rhetorical question since I'm sure you think you got a great deal in the long run.

You can get 2 Genies and 5 regular set boxes for about $12 a month, installed.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> That is a reason, but it is not the only reason. As others have pointed out, if you run the numbers over the long term, TiVo will usually be cheaper than renting provider equipment over 2 or 3 years.
> 
> But another big problem for TiVo is that many people just don't know they have any option other than to take the MSO's DVRs and cable boxes, and the cable companies sure as hell aren't about to tell them they have other options. And even people who may know they have the option of TiVo just don't want to deal with the hassles involved with getting CableCards and Tuning Adapters to work properly. Not everyone is technically inclined, and just taking the MSO's equipment is definitely the path of least resistance.


The biggest problem for TiVo is that there aren't that many people out there (about 600,000) that feel they need to buy a Ferrari to go grocery shopping.

98% of the DVR public is more than happy with their MSO provided DVR that they get for free.

Hell, most people are just happy they don't have to buy "tapes" to record stuff. They have NO INTEREST in paying $1000 to $2000 for a glorified VCR.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> You made you curious, I ran the numbers on your setup and this is what I come up with...
> 
> 2 Romio Pro's with lifetime service = $2000
> 5 Minis with lifetime service = $1250
> ...


Roamio Pro with Lifetime may cost the uniformed at list of $600 + $400 for Lifetime for a total of $1,000, but now using the E-Bay codes you can get the Roamio Pro + lifetime for $739 + $174 per Lifetime Mini, so for your example the cost of two Roamio Pro units + 5 Minis would cost about $2300 not $3,250, that $950 less!..just saying
I had a friend that had 6 TiVos and I set him up with one Roamio pro + 5 minis for that $2300 and sold his 6 older TiVos for a net on E-Bay (after all E-Bay and PayPal and S&H costs) of $1,650. His Monthly cable bill went down by about $40/month by turning in 5 now extra cable cards. A good return on a $700 cost.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> The biggest problem for TiVo is that there aren't that many people out there (about 600,000) that feel they need to buy a Ferrari to go grocery shopping.
> 
> 98% of the DVR public is more than happy with their MSO provided DVR that they get for free.
> 
> Hell, most people are just happy they don't have to buy "tapes" to record stuff. They have NO INTEREST in paying $1000 to $2000 for a glorified VCR.


The thing is most people do not get a DVR from the cable company for free. And the vast majority pay more for the cable company DVRs than for TiVos over a several year period.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

lessd said:


> Roamio Pro with Lifetime may cost the uniformed at list of $600 + $400 for Lifetime for a total of $1,000, but now using the E-Bay codes you can get the Roamio Pro + lifetime for $739 + $174 per Lifetime Mini, so for your example the cost of two Roamio Pro units + 5 Minis would cost about $2300 not $3,250, that $950 less!..just saying
> I had a friend that had 6 TiVos and I set him up with one Roamio pro + 5 minis for that $2300 and sold his 6 older TiVos for a net on E-Bay (after all E-Bay and PayPal and S&H costs) of $1,650. His Monthly cable bill went down by about $40/month by turning in 5 now extra cable cards. A good return on a $700 cost.


Even at $2300 that's still $100 a month over 2 years.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> The thing is most people do not get a DVR from the cable company for free. And the vast majority pay more for the cable company DVRs than for TiVos over a several year period.


Everyone keeps saying that, but I still haven't seen anyone show their "math".

DirecTV, Dish and Comcast will all give you a DVR for free, all you have to do is ask. Does TiVo?

There is a reason TiVo is down to 930,000 subs including lower margin Minis.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> Everyone keeps saying that, but I still haven't seen anyone show their "math".
> 
> DirecTV, Dish and Comcast will all give you a DVR for free, all you have to do is ask. Does TiVo?
> 
> There is a reason TiVo is down to 930,000 subs including lower margin Minis.


I know dozens of people with Comcast and FiOS DVRs. While some have discounts and a few got some deal on a DVR at some point. They all have multiple DVRs for multiple TVs. WHich is not all free and over the long term still costs more than Lifetime TiVo ownership. And then factor in the resale and the deal gets better.

Now from my personal experience over the last seven years with FiOS and Comcast. I would have paid much more to have all those DVrs from FiOS and Comcast instead of the TiVos I owned. Plus the sale of those TiVos reduced or fully paid for the upgrade to the newer lifetime TiVos I purchased. While with Comcast or FiOS I would still be paying dozens of dollars each month to equal what I have with my retail TiVos.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> I know dozens of people with Comcast and FiOS DVRs. While some have discounts and a few got some deal on a DVR at some point. They all have multiple DVRs for multiple TVs. WHich is not all free and over the long term still costs more than Lifetime TiVo ownership. And then factor in the resale and the deal gets better.
> 
> Now from my personal experience over the last seven years with FiOS and Comcast. I would have paid much more to have all those DVrs from FiOS and Comcast instead of the TiVos I owned. Plus the sale of those TiVos reduced or fully paid for the upgrade to the newer lifetime TiVos I purchased. While with Comcast or FiOS I would still be paying dozens of dollars each month to equal what I have with my retail TiVos.


Your average DVR user has no interest in selling anything on EBay. Once again, one Genie compared to one TiVo pro.

Total cost on Genie = Nothing up front and $0 to $6 a month for two years.

Total cost on Romio Pro = $700 upfront and $16 a month for a year.

It's not even close and that is the exact reason they are losing retail customers in droves even while counting Mini's as "subs" now.


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## timchi29 (Feb 26, 2005)

I'm leaving DirecTV due to their horrible customer service, not for value (plus had TiVo years ago through DirecTV and DVR was much better). I am middle of a two year contract and called DirecTV to inquire why my bill increased. First she said I must of had a promotion that expired after the first year. I said its the 18th month and then she said it increased due to a price increase to their packages. I replied I'm in a contract and how can the price increase. She kept on repeating like a parrot, if I took the time to read my bill the previous month, it was stated in that. I asked if I could cancel due to the increase, she said sure, but you would have to pay the ETF, again repeating like a parrot and she had attitude. So they lost a customer due to their customer service.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

ncted said:


> Even the technically inclined, such as yours truly, does not want to deal with the hassle of CableCards and TAs. It is worth paying extra to insure the shows you want recorded actually record. Of course, in my case, TWCs Navigator/SDV combo is just as bad as their buggy CC/TA combo, and both are more expensive than Satellite at the end of the day. Not that it matters if the product doesn't work. I think Tivo has the right ideas if they want to increase retail sales: 1. OTA Tivo (yes, many people will buy it) 2. Partner with Comcast, etc. to get rid of CC/TA mess.


 2nd that. One of the reason I've stuck with OTA is dealing with CC's and TA's.
Due to working schedule, most the times the Tivos are recording I'm not here, so if there is a problem I find out about it after the fact. 
I don't blame Tivo for CC's or TA's but they bear the brunt of these things.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

timchi29 said:


> I'm leaving DirecTV due to their horrible customer service, not for value (plus had TiVo years ago through DirecTV and DVR was much better). I am middle of a two year contract and called DirecTV to inquire why my bill increased. First she said I must of had a promotion that expired after the first year. I said its the 18th month and then she said it increased due to a price increase to their packages. I replied I'm in a contract and how can the price increase. She kept on repeating like a parrot, if I took the time to read my bill the previous month, it was stated in that. I asked if I could cancel due to the increase, she said sure, but you would have to pay the ETF, again repeating like a parrot and she had attitude. So they lost a customer due to their customer service.


If they change the terms of the contract I don't think they can legally make you pay the ETF. I've had Verizon do this to me before on a cell phone contract. It took some arguing with a couple of Verizon reps about it and some threats to file complaints with government agencies, but in the end I was able to get away without paying the ETF.


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## timchi29 (Feb 26, 2005)

They bury it that the price guarantee is for 12 months. Not debating the terms, just the attitude of the low life answering the phone. I'm sure its going to get worse when ATT takes over.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

FWIW: My Dish Hopper costs me $12/month and the Joey costs me $7 with no remaining discounts. My parents Genie costs them $15/month ($25/month at the end of their contract), and the 2nd TV costs $6. I've seen a lot of other prices quoted here, so apparently there is more variation than I realized.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Banker257 said:


> Nothing. What does my Internet connection have to do with my TV bill?


You asked another poster how much they're being charged for Sunday Ticket, a service not available through their provider that they may or may not care about. So I'm asking you about a service not available through DirecTV that you probably do care about.


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## timchi29 (Feb 26, 2005)

I am no longer under the promotional pricing for DirecTV and my monthly bill is $97 for 2 DVR's. And with all the rain and snow we had this year, alot of programs didn't get taped.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

nrc said:


> You asked another poster how much they're being charged for Sunday Ticket, a service not available through their provider that they may or may not care about. So I'm asking you about a service not available through DirecTV that you probably do care about.


I included Sunday Ticket because we were comparing the price of TV packages. Internet and phone have nothing to do with the subject matter.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

ncted said:


> FWIW: My Dish Hopper costs me $12/month and the Joey costs me $7 with no remaining discounts. My parents Genie costs them $15/month ($25/month at the end of their contract), and the 2nd TV costs $6. I've seen a lot of other prices quoted here, so apparently there is more variation than I realized.


You might want to have your patents call them and ask if they are elibable for any hardware discounts.

You'd be surprised what they can come up with. They are not going to just lower their bill if you're happily paying what they ask every month.

Anything they give to a "new" customer, they can give to an excisting one. Just be prepared to agree to another two year contract.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

timchi29 said:


> I am no longer under the promotional pricing for DirecTV and my monthly bill is $97 for 2 DVR's. And with all the rain and snow we had this year, alot of programs didn't get taped.


That is a certain issue with satellite although I had more outages when I had FIOS.

Curious, what are you paying for those DVR's? I'm assuming they are the HR 24's? (2 tuners)


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> Everyone keeps saying that, but I still haven't seen anyone show their "math".
> 
> DirecTV, Dish and Comcast will all give you a DVR for free, all you have to do is ask. Does TiVo?


Comcast does not give you a DVR for "free" or certainly not with our franchise. If I were to add a Comcast DVR to my service, I would have to minimally pay $8.00 DVR Service fee plus a $9.95 HD Technology fee so monthly cost would be $17.95 for DVR service on the primary outlet. Looks like their Anyroom DVR service is $10.00 per month versus $8.00 per month.

Additional outlets with DVR service are also $8.00 more each (or $10.00 with Anyroom DVR service).

Scott


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> Everyone keeps saying that, but I still haven't seen anyone show their "math".
> 
> DirecTV, Dish and Comcast will all give you a DVR for free, all you have to do is ask. Does TiVo?
> 
> There is a reason TiVo is down to 930,000 subs including lower margin Minis.


Here you go...

*DirecTV*
Premier Programming: $129.99
6 additional outlet fees: $36
HD fee: $10
DVR fee: $10
Whole Home fee: $3
Regional Sports fee: $3.63

Total: $192.62 per month

*FiOS TV*
Ultimate HD Programming: $90.00
2 Multistream Cablecards: $9.98
No HD fee
No DVR fee
No Whole home fee
No regional sports fee

Total $99.98 per month *without* factoring the first 2 year discounts of $45 per month

So, a monthly savings of $92.64 before new subscriber discounts. Those total $45 per month for 24 months. So my total monthly savings for the first 24 months is $137.64.

The total cost of the TiVo equipment was $2269.98. So I break even on the retail cost in 16.5 months. If you then consider that in June 2016 the Roamios and Minis will have a resale value and credit that in, then break even happens earlier. But even if there is no resale value, I can keep using the TiVos and continue to pocket the almost $100/month savings indefinitely.

As for 7 TVs...there are 4 people in our household, so we have a TV in each of 3 bedrooms, the family room, the rec room, the kitchen and the office.

Finally, let me add that perhaps your first DirecTV equipment setup is free, later acquisitions will not be. As a DirecTV customer for 13 years we spent close to $2000 over the years on upgrades (up to $199 for a 2 tuner DVR, $299 for a Genie, $150 for a Genie Go - the equivalent of TiVo's stream, and $99 for a non-DVR receiver or Mini).


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Diana Collins said:


> Here you go...
> 
> *DirecTV*
> Premier Programming: $129.99
> ...


Unfortunately FIOS is not available in my area and it looks like it works for you but I'm not paying anywhere near what you quoted for DirecTV.

Here is my setup:

Ultimate package 
HD package
Whole home
No regional sports
Sunday Ticket
1 Genie
2 HR 24's

With taxes, fees and any incidentals, my monthly bill is $92.78 total.

I'm trying not to come off as a DirecTV shill, there are plenty of things I don't like about them, starting with having to threaten to leave to get the same deal they give any new customer off the street.

That being said, I'm very satisfied with my package now I think it's more than fairly priced.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Banker257 said:


> You might want to have your patents call them and ask if they are elibable for any hardware discounts.
> 
> You'd be surprised what they can come up with. They are not going to just lower their bill if you're happily paying what they ask every month.
> 
> Anything they give to a "new" customer, they can give to an excisting one. Just be prepared to agree to another two year contract.


They are brand new customers and have all of the discounts I am aware of. Between the $10 Genie discount, the $10 referral discount, and the $27 programming discount, they are only paying $64.78/month with taxes. When all that expires, they will be paying $47 more, plus whatever price increases happen between now and then.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

ncted said:


> They are brand new customers and have all of the discounts I am aware of. Between the $10 Genie discount, the $10 referral discount, and the $27 programming discount, they are only paying $64.78/month with taxes. When all that expires, they will be paying $47 more, plus whatever price increases happen between now and then.


$65 a month is a pretty damn good deal if you ask me.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Banker257 said:


> $65 a month is a pretty damn good deal if you ask me.


Even $113 will be good compared to the $180 they were paying TWC before they switched.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

ncted said:


> Even $113 will be good compared to the $180 they were paying TWC before they switched.


Is that $65 on a two year agreement?


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> ...I'm trying not to come off as a DirecTV shill, there are plenty of things I don't like about them, starting with having to threaten to leave to get the same deal they give any new customer off the street.
> 
> That being said, I'm very satisfied with my package now I think it's more than fairly priced.


I for one, never thought you were in anyway shilling for DirecTV.

We were very happy with DirecTV as well. If we were using Verizon's VMS1100 and IP Clients instead of TiVos we probably would not have made the change (when you factor in the cost for 2 VMS1100s and 5 Clients, Verizon only ends up costing about $15/month less than DirecTV).

It was only the the fact that we have a large installation that made the difference so compelling. Further, without the discount codes for the hardware, the break-even point would have been beyond 2 years. Once you go out that far, you also have to discount any potential savings with a risk factor, since market conditions beyond 24 months become much harder to foresee.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Banker257 said:


> Is that $65 on a two year agreement?


Yes, although some of the discounts go away at 10 months and 12 months, so it won't stay $65/month for the whole 2 years.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> Even at $2300 that's still $100 a month over 2 years.


True if you assume no value after two years, for most people that not true as Lifetime TiVos do have value after two years, and one could keep the units for a lot longer than two years.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> Unfortunately FIOS is not available in my area and it looks like it works for you but I'm not paying anywhere near what you quoted for DirecTV.
> 
> Here is my setup:
> 
> ...


But that's year 1.. What happens in year two? All the dtv deals I see go up after year 1. And discounts like the referral discount expire after 10 months.

The Ultimate package is $45/mo for the 1st year. So do you have around $40 in equipment fees and then taxes on top of that to get to $92/mo?


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> But that's year 1. What happens in year two? All the dtv deals I see go up after year 1. And discounts like the referral discount expire after 10 months.


Stays the same as far as I know. I'm not a lawyer and didn't read the 75 page "user agreement" but we are on tape as saying this deal is good for two years.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> Stays the same as far as I know. I'm not a lawyer and didn't read the 75 page "user agreement" but we are on tape as saying this deal is good for two years.


well you don't have to be a lawyer to see that all these new customer packages have cheaper 1st year pricing than 2nd year. All the price quotes have fine print under them saying for 1st 12 months. You did say you're getting new customer pricing.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Banker257 said:


> Stays the same as far as I know. I'm not a lawyer and didn't read the 75 page "user agreement" but we are on tape as saying this deal is good for two years.


And the 2 years they're talking about is most likely the contract you agreed to.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

All DirecTV equipment "deals" require a 2 year commitment for DVRs and 1 year for non-DVR receivers. Replacing any receiver, except for an equipment failure, restarts the commitment clock. Since they almost always include a Genie in the new customer installs these days, they all have 2 year commitments. The new customer deals usually have a 12 month price lock (your price won't go up) but you have a 24 month commitment. The actual programming discount for a new customer is currently $10/month, so a new customer's bill increase by at least that much for months 13 through 24.

New customers also get HBO, Cinemax and Showtime free for 3 months, and you have to call and cancel them at the end of that period, otherwise they are added to your bill automatically.

If you need more than 3 active viewing locations at once, then you'd also need either a non-DVR receiver ($99 each) or another DVR ($199 for a 2 tuner) at those additional locations (you can have up to 6 clients paired to a Genie, but only 3 of them can be active at once). There is a technical issue that prevents 2 Genies being in the same installation.

All Genie customers pay an advanced receiver fee (currently $15 per month for new customers) that covers whole home DVR service.

So, off the price list, Banker's set up would run:

Ultimate: $39.99
Advanced receiver fee: $15
Outlet fees (3x$6): $18

Total: $72.99/month plus tax, rising to $82.99/month after 12 months. If they were referred by a current customer, they can also get a $10/month discount for the first 10 months.

Where DirecTV really gets expensive is when you start upgrading to newest hardware. Then you'll pay $99 for a standard receiver or a Genie client, $199 for the wireless hub if you want a wireless client, $199 for a 2 tuner DVR, and $299 for a Genie (if you don't already have one). Of course, you still pay $6 month for these units as well (and have a new 2 year commitment).


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Diana Collins said:


> All DirecTV equipment "deals" require a 2 year commitment for DVRs and 1 year for non-DVR receivers. Replacing any receiver, except for an equipment failure, restarts the commitment clock. Since they almost always include a Genie in the new customer installs these days, they all have 2 year commitments. The new customer deals usually have a 12 month price lock (your price won't go up) but you have a 24 month commitment. The actual programming discount for a new customer is currently $10/month, so a new customer's bill increase by at least that much for months 13 through 24.
> 
> New customers also get HBO, Cinemax and Showtime free for 3 months, and you have to call and cancel them at the end of that period, otherwise they are added to your bill automatically.
> 
> ...


$72!? I'm going to have to look at my bill this month!!

Did you take into consideration I have one HR44 (genie) and 2 HR24's (2 tuner DVR's?


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> $72!? I'm going to have to look at my bill this month!!
> 
> Did you take into consideration I have one HR44 (genie) and 2 HR24's (2 tuner DVR's?


Yes...that's why the outlet fee is $6. When did you sign up? If it was before July 24th then the advanced receiver fee is $25 but you would get a $6 credit for the first outlet, making the total $4 more.

Do you have any Genie clients in addition to the 2 HR24s? They get a $6/month charge as well.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Diana Collins said:


> The Genie is not a POS. It works quite well, as do the associated mini clients. The biggest difference is that the Genies do not have any streaming apps.
> 
> The current Directv TiVos are running very limited versions of the software...no whole home, for example. Why that is has been blamed on TiVo at times and Directv other times. IMHO, the Directv TiVo exists only as a cheaper way for DirecTV to get access to TiVo's patents.


It exists to avoid DirecTV from being sued by TiVo as it has every other MVPD who has not dealt with TiVo for providing products. That was the clause in the contract in the DirecTV/TiVo agreement, eseentially: "We'll partner with you TiVo to develop a new TiVo product for DirecTV and pay all the usual expenses you always make partners pay, and, in exchange, you CAN NOT sue us for violation of patents like you are almost everyone else."


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Diana Collins said:


> For customers who signed up prior to July 24th, 2014 the monthly fees that almost any DirecTV account will incur are:
> 
> Whole Home DVR fee: $3/month*
> Advanced Receiver fee: $10/month*
> ...


So will TiVo upgrade EVERY owner with necessary new TiVo's who have incompatible TiVo's for the MPEG4 change? That is what both DirecTV and Dish did for ALL its customers who had to be migrated to MPEG4 (and further in the Dish instance to 8PSK for SD video) all at NO EXTRA CHARGE NOR ANY INCREASE ON THE BILL. Um, TiVo always has a PAID path with the wording being "upgrade to a Premiere or Roamio." Satellite did NOT leave anybody behind to either fend for themselves or try to get the subscriber to pay for anything. This was all done at no extra charge and with no effort or knowledge needed for the subscriber. A letter explaining the need to change out equipment for comparable features or better equipment and a number to call to set-up the details or change-out at NO EXTRA CHARGE so subscribers to SAT don't have bricks.

So, what is TiVo's FREE exchange program and when will they ship my Premiere or Roamio DVR so I can send them back my old USELESS non-MPEG4 box with no shipping charges? I couldn't find it. I would think that after the many, many years of monthly payments and SEVERAL big chunks of Lifetime payments, TiVo would be willing to carry me over to MPEG4 since that migration is NOT MY FAULT.

**All the above said with a bit of sarcasm. Of course TiVo has no such path*

Try no too sound too fanboy about which situation is better. Both SAT and TiVo GET YOU, alright. And how do we quantify the whole TiVo and MSO Cable Card and TA disasters in terms of $$$ for a TiVo vs. DirecTV numbers case compared to a crappy cable company DVR and the 2 superior SAT DVR's that have never had those problems? Yes, the CC and TA were Cable Co. sabotage of TiVo, but who is to blame is irrelevant when the real world experience is that many MISS recordings and have to haggle with CA pairing and MSO run-arounds and TA disasters and truck roll fees and the fees for the Cable Cards and TA's themselves all added to the TiVo cost. Sorry, but as much as I think TiVo is a great product, it really is for the affluent. They are the ONLY ones who can really afford it, and by that I mean those who have the ADDITIONAL $399-$499 in lose change under the cushions of their sofas for Lifetime (the least expensive option in the long-run/over time)--PLUS the purchase price for the TiVo boxes.

And now TiVo wants to replicate the MSO/SAT model with never ending monthly fees with no Lifetime option for its latest STB? Please!

The average Amercan Family can NEVER afford the TiVo option for the whole home because they don't have that much money burning holes in their pockets. So, of course, the FREE whole home DVR's from MSO's and SAT with ONLY the monthly fees works for their budget, because it would be impossible for that family to get TV in the entire home at TiVo prices. This is why TiVo is not what it was and must re-invent itself as a software company, but have also alluded to an "exit strategy" when the patents become public in 2018.

TiVo is also a great brand and just about everybody believes TiVo may be the superior product, but they just can't afford it and go with the MVPD freebies, which in the case of DirecTV and Dish, are, if not equal, superior to TiVo. No crappy DVR's in satellite, but still so at Cable. Also, as stated, I don't have to pay a dime to get any of my cable or sat equipment fails (Dish charges only for shipping-$12-if not enrolled in protection plan or NO shipping charges if in protection plan to replace broken DVR's or other boxes. Also $99 tech visit *IF* _*requested*_ but NOT _*required*_, but pays all other expenses or change-outs or only $15 for tech visit if one agrees to monthly protection plan, but one can also cancel it when done, so total cost to replace/fix DVR's or any other box may be $12 shipping or waived and for other system equipment is $50 (that's $15 plus immediate cancellation of protection plan before 3 months is $25) or NO charge for shipping). I've never been quoted any less from TiVo than HUNDREDS of dollars to replace one broken box. Or I could let Weaknees fix it, for hundreds still, plus I pay for the shipping to Weaknees. And let's not get into DIY because that is beyond the capabilities of MOST people, so we are dealing with costs most Americans have to deal with. Oh, and you can OWN your boxes at Dish. But only paranoid rich folk who feel they may want to switch providers before the 2 years do that. Buying the boxes makes no economic sense with the MVPD pricing models. And YES, Dish will replace at no charge or nominal ANY owned boxes with the same guarantee and protection and and they remain OWNED by the subscriber.

Perhaps, TiVo should give away their boxes for FREE (up to a limit of say 4 like the cable and sat cos.) and just charge monthly fees. That would be an interesting experiment. Then we might see how desired TiVo and competitive TiVo really is (a bit more sarcasm ). But then again, TiVo can't recover costs from the 2 years monthly programming subscriptions. This why cable and sat still kill and TiVo is still so tiny. The American Family is all about the monthly, and they know that TiVo might price out better in the long run, but that is true for buying a HOUSE or a CAR without taking out a loan with interest. But people choose this economically inferior costing more in the long run path of smaller monthly payments over many years or decades that increase the total cost of the car or house when interest is calculated because they don't have that kind of money in their pocket books or bank accounts for the all cash option. And almost always (only the most recent hard times have been the exception) go back to trade-in their car for a new LOAN and MORE monthly payments. That is the very same reason people opt for the MVPD free stuff even though they know the fees will never end. They don't have the thousands of dollars of loose change many on this forum have spilling out of their pockets. Most people can't afford to buy a home or cash in all-cash, nor can they afford the TiVo option (whole home) for their families at home, either. That's TiVo's problem no matter how any tries to make the "long-run" argument. There is really NO TiVo option for most.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

moedaman said:


> $90 just for tv? And you call that a deal?
> 
> I have the HD Preferred Triple Play from Comcast with includes HD Preferred tier (with one HD STB and two cable cards), HBO, Starz, Streampix, 105/20 internet and unlimited phone. I'm paying $110.49 per month out the door with all taxes and fees for 12 months. And I have no contract with a $25 per month increase coming for months 13 - 24. Now that's a deal!
> 
> This is why I left Dish for cable. There is no way to save on equipment fees using satellite (which can easily run to 25% of the final cost using a Genie or Hopper system). If Comcast screws me, I have a cable overbuilder available to switch to (Wide Open West).


You forgot he is getting NFL Sunday ticket at no charge this and next year plus more. Also, the Genie could be argued as superior to TiVo. I'm not saying it is.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Johncv said:


> NO, you don't, the Premiere has been update to the Roamia interface and the TiVo give you MORE information then the POS of a Genie of a box.


He does know what he is talking about. He said and referred to his past experience with Premiere XL. He IS correct as that WAS the experience. Try to contain TiVo fanboy impulses.

The correct reply would have been the following:
"Yes, that was true, as many have vented their frustration on this forum. It was a POS. However, TiVo has recently fixed all that with a change in the software and now the Premier line operates with speed and is a joy to use as pleasant as the new Roamio line. Perhaps you could TiVo another try."
.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

rainwater said:


> It costs the same as Directv customers to get it on my Xbox. "Free" Sunday Ticket is only for new customers.


Um, no. Certain subs have negotiated free beyond their new sub status. Yes, I've heard of other getting the 2nd year free, as well.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Banker257 said:


> Not true. I wasn't a new customer. So far the only people that claim I don't "get this" or "I don't get that" are not current DirecTv customers and have no idea what one can get for "free". All it takes is a phone call and a two year commitment.
> 
> That's a fact.
> 
> ...


Yes, there are some like you out there. People don't know that, but more than people realize. Usually one has to call and ask what DirecTV or Dish can do for them to avoid leaving for the new customer deals that are really cheap the first year or two, and they will give you quite a bit.

Also, people have to remember to factor in the experience or preference of a particular provider who has great customer service, better DVR's and whole home technologies and willing to either provide FREE or nominal cost upgrades (I got 3 FREE upgrades with Dish) and reliability of service and features one would miss changing providers. In fact, quite a few people on this forum had to say goodby to TiVo, NOT because of TiVo, but because the Cable co. was such a negative experience, and switched to satellite. Verizon FiOS is the most expensive and only available in their service areas.

I understand your posts well. I think most people deserve to be taken at face value in the absence of evidence to the contrary.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

moedaman said:


> Not really a NFL fan, so your point doesn't matter. And even if I was, Sunday Ticket sure isn't worth the premium when there are 5 - 7 games (3 or 4 that aren't available on Sunday Ticket) per week on other channels and when Redzone is available with other providers. The price you pay for DirecTV, shows me that Sunday Ticket isn't really free.


What it means is a great deal for one person is not necessarily a great deal for someone else. What you must concede is that if someone does like NFL, then it is a great deal because they are getting what they want for a good, competitive price instead of missing NFLST while subscribing to ALMOST always inferior cable co. So, your deal with Comcast is a GREAT deal--FOR YOU, and a LOUSY one for someone who likes NFL and is getting ST for FREE for 2 years. I don't recall him ever referring to your deal as not great. Let the French Socialists tear everybody else down. I'm pleased for anyone who is getting WHAT THEY WANT AND PREFER what is of VALUE to them for a good, competitive price. I don't care for NFLST, either, so its not so great a deal FOR ME, but it sure is if someone wants it.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

timchi29 said:


> I am no longer under the promotional pricing for DirecTV and my monthly bill is $97 for 2 DVR's. And with all the rain and snow we had this year, alot of programs didn't get taped.


Unfortunately DircTV uses Ka band satellites for its HD channels. Although DirecTV implements some counter measures, Ka is far more suseptable to rain fade and snow. Dish uses the Ku band higher powered DBS band for ALL its SD and HD channels. One common complaint about DirecTV among those who have or have had both Sat services is that, in general, DirecTV users can experience more moderate to significant instances of rain fade and snow for the HD channels than they do or did with Dish


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Diana Collins said:


> All DirecTV equipment "deals" require a 2 year commitment for DVRs and 1 year for non-DVR receivers. Replacing any receiver, except for an equipment failure, restarts the commitment clock. Since they almost always include a Genie in the new customer installs these days, they all have 2 year commitments. The new customer deals usually have a 12 month price lock (your price won't go up) but you have a 24 month commitment. The actual programming discount for a new customer is currently $10/month, so a new customer's bill increase by at least that much for months 13 through 24.
> 
> New customers also get HBO, Cinemax and Showtime free for 3 months, and you have to call and cancel them at the end of that period, otherwise they are added to your bill automatically.
> 
> ...


Correct about DirecTV, but Dish does NOT restart committement clock for ANY replacements or repairs to the system, etc. Dish does restart the 2 year clock IF one UPGRADES to the latest technology STB's, even if the upgrade is free, but often has nominal charge of ONE-time charge of $99 for supporting ALL current TV's outlet and any other labor or change out of the system (such as new reflectors and all new switches, etc.) to support all the new boxes and same services one gets today and includes upgrading to HD reception if necessary. Basically, they pay all the TiVo up front costs for a whole home DVR system (except the $99 upgrade fee), and they will do it again and again over the years if new systems and boxes are available if you want to upgrade, but the cost to Dish (What Dish pays out if its own pocket for the new or upgraded customer) is still LESS than if one tried to replicate such a system using TiVo's. Yes, the monthly fees will never go away (or at least SOME of them as that is one way they retain customers. They will waive some fees), but as stated in my earlier post, this is the ONLY way a family can get a very good quality whole home DVR system, using the monthly fee model with no up-front costs. People just don't have the THOUSANDS it would cost in cash for a like TiVo system of boxes, Lifetimes and Mini's who also have their Lifetime expense and retail cost. But even those who may have the cash floating around for an all TiVo whole home, some of those affluent would choose to spend that cash for other things, be it other luxuries or real necessities like getting the house painted or plumbing work or roofing, etc. Everyone does not have a "90210" income.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> Correct about DirecTV, but Dish does NOT restart committement clock for ANY replacements or repairs to the system, etc. Dish does restart the 2 year clock IF one UPGRADES to the latest technology STB's, even if the upgrade is free, but often has nominal charge of ONE-time charge of $99 for supporting ALL current TV's outlet and any other labor or change out of the system (such as new reflectors and all new switches, etc.) to support all the new boxes and same services one gets today and includes upgrading to HD reception if necessary. Basically, they pay all the TiVo up front costs for a whole home DVR system (except the $99 upgrade fee), and they will do it again and again over the years if new systems and boxes are available if you want to upgrade, but the cost to Dish (What Dish pays out if its own pocket for the new or upgraded customer) is still LESS than if one tried to replicate such a system using TiVo's. Yes, the monthly fees will never go away (or at least SOME of them as that is one way they retain customers. They will waive some fees), but as stated in my earlier post, this is the ONLY way a family can get a very good quality whole home DVR system, using the monthly fee model with no up-front costs.
> 
> People just don't have the THOUSANDS it would cost in cash for a like TiVo system of boxes, Lifetimes and Mini's who also have their Lifetime expense and retail cost.
> But even those who may have the cash floating around for an all TiVo whole home, some of those affluent would choose to spend that cash for other things, be it other luxuries or real necessities like getting the house painted or plumbing work or roofing, etc. Everyone does not have a "90210" income.


But Tivo is cheaper over 3 years than renting equipment from a satellite provider. DTV charges $15 adv receiver fee for a Genie and $18 for 3 tvs at $6 per tv. $33 per month. My Roamio Plus setup was $975. Somewhere in year 3 I've broken even with the DTV fees and still own the equipment.

That doesn't take a rich income to pull off. It takes basic financial sense and basic math ability.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> You forgot he is getting NFL Sunday ticket at no charge this and next year plus more. Also, the Genie could be argued as superior to TiVo. I'm not saying it is.


Whre does it say you're getting Sunday Ticket free for 2 years? I see 1 year.

And arguing that a Genie is a reason to pay a lot more for DTV than getting a Tivo is a weak argument. Probably the same as making the opposite argument.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> But Tivo is cheaper over 3 years than renting equipment from a satellite provider. DTV charges $15 adv receiver fee for a Genie and $18 for 3 tvs at $6 per tv. $33 per month. My Roamio Plus setup was $975. Somewhere in year 3 I've broken even with the DTV fees and still own the equipment.
> 
> That doesn't take a rich income to pull off. It takes basic financial sense and basic math ability.


I stay with TiVo without any look at Comcast newest DVR stuff because my family knows how to use TiVo, and with the Mini I can have TV in other rooms without paying for another cable card, TiVo with a cable card may or may not be less expensive as my new two year deal with Comcast includes the newest Comcast DVR that I am not taking. If the difference in price is a few hundred $ per year in either direction I am staying with my Lifetime Roamios and Minis, if the difference got to be in the thousands per year I would start doing the math.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lessd said:


> I stay with TiVo without any look at Comcast newest DVR stuff because my family knows how to use TiVo, and with the Mini I can have TV in other rooms without paying for another cable card, TiVo with a cable card may or may not be less expensive as my new two year deal with Comcast includes the newest Comcast DVR that I am not taking. If the difference in price is a few hundred $ per year in either direction I am staying with my Lifetime Roamios and Minis, if the difference got to be in the thousands per year I would start doing the math.


Yep I've seen many cable companies give out a free dvr with no monthly fee for the 1st year.

The difference in price would never be in the thousands per year.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Diana Collins said:


> The new customer deals usually have a 12 month price lock (your price won't go up) but you have a 24 month commitment. The actual programming discount for a new customer is currently $10/month, so a new customer's bill increase by at least that much for months 13 through 24.


Huh? Not sure I follow.


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## timchi29 (Feb 26, 2005)

lessd said:


> I stay with TiVo without any look at Comcast newest DVR stuff because my family knows how to use TiVo, and with the Mini I can have TV in other rooms without paying for another cable card, TiVo with a cable card may or may not be less expensive as my new two year deal with Comcast includes the newest Comcast DVR that I am not taking. If the difference in price is a few hundred $ per year in either direction I am staying with my Lifetime Roamios and Minis, if the difference got to be in the thousands per year I would start doing the math.


So if I get a roamio plus and a mini, I don't need a 2nd cable card for the mini? I can record all the shows to the plus and watch the recorded shows and live shows from the mini?


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

No CableCard for the Mini. There isn't even a slot for one.


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## timchi29 (Feb 26, 2005)

then how will teh 2nd tv get teh cable shows? I am looking to get WOW and drop directv and they are offering the first cable card is free. Do I need coax to the mini, or coax and cat5?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

timchi29 said:


> then how will teh 2nd tv get teh cable shows? I am looking to get WOW and drop directv and they are offering the first cable card is free.


The Roamio streams the video to the Mini over your home network, either MoCA over the coax in your home or ethernet if your home is wired for ethernet.


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## timchi29 (Feb 26, 2005)

Thank you. Is one preferred over the other (I have coax today, but can easily pull cat5. ? Is there a link or diagram that shows how things are wired coming off the street?


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## worachj (Oct 14, 2006)

TiVo Mini: Installing and Using 
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2557/kw/mini


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

timchi29 said:


> Thank you. Is one preferred over the other .................


Either one can work equally as well with the Mini.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

timchi29 said:


> Thank you. Is one preferred over the other (I have coax today, but can easily pull cat5. ? Is there a link or diagram that shows how things are wired coming off the street?


Ethernet is the best if you can easily pull Cat5, Cat5e or Cat6

MoCA can have many variables especially if your Cable Co uses SDV Tuning Adapters. Splitters and connectors can also be an issue.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

CoxInPHX said:


> Ethernet is the best if you can easily pull Cat5, Cat5e or Cat6
> 
> MoCA can have many variables especially if your Cable Co uses SDV Tuning Adapters. Splitters and connectors can also be an issue.


Is ethernet better for any reason other than speed?

I have a CAT6 network and had my Minis hooked up via Cat6. But then I switched them to MOCA because I could and because it offloaded traffic which seemed like a "why not do that" kind of thing.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Does the modulating and demodulating of the Ethernet signal onto an RF carrier do anything detrimental when using MoCA, as compared to straight Ethernet?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> Does the modulating and demodulating of the Ethernet signal onto an RF carrier do anything detrimental when using MoCA, as compared to straight Ethernet?


From a user point of view there has been zero difference. And with the Mini it is limited to streaming the low bitrates of broadcast TV anyway. The only time I saw any difference was with the main TiVo, pro/plus, transferring to/from a PC. SInce the GigE connection was faster than the MoCA when transferring. But from a user point of view they would not notice any difference.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> From a user point of view there has been zero difference. And with the Mini it is limited to streaming the low bitrates of broadcast TV anyway. The only time I saw any difference was with the main TiVo, pro/plus, transferring to/from a PC. SInce the GigE connection was faster than the MoCA when transferring. But from a user point of view they would not notice any difference.


Even still, if I had both available I'd choose straight Ethernet.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> Even still, if I had both available I'd choose straight Ethernet.


I have both available. I have switched back and forth over the last 1.5 years with my Minis. All my Minis are on MoCA right now. My Roamio Pro was on MoCA until the last software update which increased transfer rates to 160Mb/s+ speeds. So I put that back on my GigE network. But all my Minis are running flawlessly on MoCA. There has been no difference between me streaming shows over MoCA to the Minis or streaming over Ethernet.


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## timchi29 (Feb 26, 2005)

So if I have WOW cable coming into the house, there will be a splitter where one coax will go to the modem/router and the other coax will go to the Plus. Then I just need to run a CAT5 from the mini to the modem/router?


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Diana Collins said:


> The opinion of one user of both systems....
> 
> Things that DirecTV does better than TiVo:
> 
> ...


2 more things that Genie does better:

The "start over" feature. Doesn't matter where you come in to a live show, you click a button and it starts that program from the start. No trick play is enabled, but very cool for sports and movies.

The Genie's "Live Buffer" is 1.5 hours.

Here's a link showing Start Over


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Banker257 said:


> 2 more things that Genie does better:
> 
> The "start over" feature. Doesn't matter where you come in to a live show, you click a button and it starts that program from the start. No trick play is enabled, but very cool for sports and movies.
> 
> ...


DirecTV can do that because they have the licensing agreements with the content providers to do that. TWC does the same thing on their cable boxes. TiVo does not have any licensing agreements with content providers, so they can't legally do that.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

So you can't fast forward with the Start Over Feature? I don't see the point without that.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> DirecTV can do that because they have the licensing agreements with the content providers to do that. TWC does the same thing on their cable boxes. TiVo does not have any licensing agreements with content providers, so they can't legally do that.


TiVo could do this if it had long buffers. The 'start over" button would simple record the buffer/show and bring you to the beginning of the recorded show. Of course having the at least 2 hours buffers you would need for this feature to work most of the time for 6 tuners would reduce the available hard drive space for normal recording by 9+ hours from what is used by the 30 min buffers we have now.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

STart Over only good for shows that support it. I don't know how many shows, movies and sports that covers. Also means the show is downloaded from the internet. 

It basically is a fairly seamless authentication scheme for accessing satellite content over the internets on your tv.

I will point out that cable companies do stream content over the internets although doesn't seem to be to anything but mobile devices and pcs for the most part. And cable companies do on-demand which covers alot of shows and movies. Tivo supports On-demand from some cable companies.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

atmuscarella said:


> TiVo could do this if it had long buffers. The 'start over" button would simple record the buffer/show and bring you to the beginning of the recorded show. Of course having the at least 2 hours buffers you would need for this feature to work most of the time for 6 tuners would reduce the available hard drive space for normal recording by 9+ hours from what is used by the 30 min buffers we have now.


The buffer would also have to be buffering for the channel you want to start over with. With only 4 or 6 tuners, and over 100 channels with something you might want to start over, the odds don't seem too good to me.

Having said that, I would like a longer buffer, at least 1 hour. I don't know why TiVo couldn't have a variable buffer length in the settings, so that people who want a longer buffer can simply turn it on. It seems like that would be a relatively easy feature to add.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> So you can't fast forward with the Start Over Feature? I don't see the point without that.


The point is not about skipping commercials, it's about being able to watch a live program mid showing and not having to wait for it to come to on demand, not to mention the cost of on demand.

Why would you need to FF through a movie?


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> The point is not about skipping commercials, it's about being able to watch a live program mid showing and not having to wait for it to come to on demand, not to mention the cost of on demand.
> 
> Why would you need to FF through a movie?


So, you can skip the f**king commercials (not counting movies on HBO or Showtime), that the point of a TiVo. A crappy DVR (Genie) want you to watch commercials. Why go back to the start of a show just view ALL the commercials in the entire show or movie.  Pointless. Directv should chuck the POS Genie and replace it with a Roamio Pro or even better a Roamio Mega.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Johncv said:


> So, you can skip the f**king commercials (not counting movies on HBO or Showtime), that the point of a TiVo. A crappy DVR (Genie) want you to watch commercials. Why go back to the start of a show just view ALL the commercials in the entire show or movie.  Pointless. Directv should chuck the POS Genie and replace it with a Roamio Pro or even better a Roamio Mega.


What are you even saying? That post makes absolutely no sense. The Genie is a very good DVR, btw.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> What are you even saying? That post makes absolutely no sense. The Genie is a very good DVR, btw.


He is saying it isn't an attractive option if you have to watch all the commercials when starting over due to lack of FF. Movies have commercials unless they are on a premium channel.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> He is saying it isn't an attractive option if you have to watch all the commercials when starting over due to lack of FF. Movies have commercials unless they are on a premium channel.


Thanks for the translation! 

What he's missing though, is since I have 3 DVR's, whole home, you record the show on one DVR, "start over" on another until you get to the point where you can switch over to the "recording". Depending on where you came in, you might have to watch a couple of commercials. Big deal. Go get a beer while you're waiting. 

To catch the beginning of a great sporting event in the middle of it, I'd be willing to sit through some commercials.

Same goes for HBO and other premium channels.

Someone here last Sunday complained that his Tivo didn't record an NFL game while he was out at church. You think he would complain if he had the option to come home, find it not recording, push a button to "start over" but he has to sit through commercials?

Yea, that'd be horrible!


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> Thanks for the translation!
> 
> What he's missing though, is since I have 3 DVR's, whole home, you record the show on one DVR, "start over" on another until you get to the point where you can switch over to the "recording". Depending on where you came in, you might have to watch a couple of commercials. Big deal. Go get a beer while you're waiting.
> 
> ...


Well that may not be horrible, but the feature loses most of its luster if you have to sit through commercials.

It sounds like something I'd only use in rare emergencies. And then you'd have to hope the event or show was STartOver enabled.

For movies on premium channels like HBO there isn't a great need to have to catch a specific showing because they replay the movies and tv shows 100 times a month.  And since you have something called a DVR you can just set it to record the next showing and since you have a DVR you probably have stuff to watch.

Plus on cable, if you have OnDemand, you can get many of the shows and movies on a channel like HBO whenever you want. Nevermind there is something called HBOGo.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> Well that may not be horrible, but the feature loses most of its luster if you have to sit through commercials.
> 
> It sounds like something I'd only use in rare emergencies. And then you'd have to hope the event or show was STartOver enabled.
> 
> ...


I can think of more reasons to have it than not. So far, the only complaint I see is you have to watch commercials.

Like I said, I'd rather see a game than read about in the paper the next day. If I have to watch a couple of commercials, so be it, that's when you go get a beer, order a pizza, surf the net, etc.

As far as a movie being on 100's of times a month, the whole point is you don't have to wait for one of the other 99 times for it to come on again.

You can wait a week to see a movie you missed the first 10 minutes of but you won't stand for a couple of minutes of commercials? 

If this feature was available on a TiVo, there would be a whole forum devoted to how great it is!


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> Like I said, I'd rather see a game than read about in the paper the next day. If I have to watch a couple of commercials, so be it, that's when you go get a beer, order a pizza, surf the net, etc.


Yeah but it isn't that it couldn't be handy in an emergency, but that it isn't likely to be used except in one because we record stuff we want to watch and because this feature makes you sit through commercials.



Banker257 said:


> As far as a movie being on 100's of times a month, the whole point is you don't have to wait for one of the other 99 times for it to come on again.


Of course, but because there are 99 other showings the need for such a feature is greatly diminished.



Banker257 said:


> You can wait a week to see a movie you missed the first 10 minutes of but you won't stand for a couple of minutes of commercials?


If I only missed the first ten minutes I probably wouldn't use the feature. Even greater point is I have a DVR so I am not watching many movies if any live. I usually have a ton of movies on my DVR at any given time. And commercials in a movie that has them are more than a few minutes. You might be talking 1 hour of commercials for a 2 hour movie.

If you watch lots of live tv then this feature would be more exciting I would think. Actually would go great with the Tivo set top box suggestion I posted in Suggestions. 



Banker257 said:


> If this feature was available on a TiVo, there would be a whole forum devoted to how great it is!


Maybe. It is a Tivo forum after all although you can see plainly that many of Tivo's moves and features are roundly analyzed and often criticized if it calls for it. And the devil would be in the details. So far some of those details have dampened your initial mention of this feature. And you haven't offered any reassurance about how widespread the ability to StartOver is on DTV.

Overall I could take it or leave it.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Banker257 said:


> I can think of more reasons to have it than not. So far, the only complaint I see is you have to watch commercials.
> 
> Like I said, I'd rather see a game than read about in the paper the next day. If I have to watch a couple of commercials, so be it, that's when you go get a beer, order a pizza, surf the net, etc.
> 
> ...


One of the main reasons I have used DVRs for years is the ability to skip the *#@* commercials. I would never use something where that feature was disabled, unless I was watching a movie that had no commercials in it.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah but it isn't that it couldn't be handy in an emergency, but that it isn't likely to be used except in one because we record stuff we want to watch and because this feature makes you sit through commercials.
> 
> Of course, but because there are 99 other showings the need for such a feature is greatly diminished.
> 
> ...


As of today, 60 stations have the start over feature. Saves a lot of money i would have spent on on demand.

If I seem "dampened" it's because I don't want to get into a giant pissing match. I think it's a cool feature, you don't.

No big deal to either one of us! :up:


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Captainbob said:


> One of the main reasons I have used DVRs for years is the ability to skip the *#@* commercials. I would never use something where that feature was disabled, unless I was watching a movie that had no commercials in it.


Already been covered. Personally, I like it more for Live sporting events.

Either way, it doesn't cost anything extra so I don't see what the big deal about a couple of commercials is.

Don't like it? Don't use it! Wait for the show to come to Netflix and pay for it.

That being said, aren't you the cord cutter?


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Banker257 said:


> Already been covered. Personally, I like it more for Live sporting events.
> 
> Either way, it doesn't cost anything extra so I don't see what the big deal about a couple of commercials is.
> 
> ...


Yup, I enjoy the thousands of dollars I have saved so far since I severed the cord.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> As of today, 60 stations have the start over feature. Saves a lot of money i would have spent on on demand.
> 
> If I seem "dampened" it's because I don't want to get into a giant pissing match. I think it's a cool feature, you don't.
> 
> No big deal to either one of us! :up:


On Demand costs nothing on cable. I don't how it is on satellite except I don't think satellite has VoD. There is pay per view on cable for newer movies that aren't on premium channels yet and that costs extra. Maybe that's what you are saying costs money on satellite?!?? But VoD is free with your cable subscription.

When I say it is dampened I'm talking about the feature being dampened by the downsides that have been brought up. That's all.

IF you don't watch much live tv then you aren't going to get out of bed for StartOver.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> I can think of more reasons to have it than not. So far, the only complaint I see is you have to watch commercials.
> 
> Like I said, I'd rather see a game than read about in the paper the next day. If I have to watch a couple of commercials, so be it, that's when you go get a beer, order a pizza, surf the net, etc.
> 
> ...


Is it really only two minutes of commercials or is it really the normal 18 minutes of commercials per hour? There is a big difference between the two.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> Is it really only two minutes of commercials or is it really the normal 18 minutes of commercials per hour? There is a big difference between the two.


LOL!! Like your opinion is going to change?

I think I've ruffled enough feathers. I'm done with this subject.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Banker257 said:


> I included Sunday Ticket because we were comparing the price of TV packages. Internet and phone have nothing to do with the subject matter.


It does if you're paying more overall because of your TV programming choice. What good does it do you to get a "good deal" on a TV package if you're paying more total each month?

My savings from switching from DirecTV with separate Internet to bundled services from WOW! have more than paid for the two Tivos with lifetime that I've had since then.


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