# Tivo sinking ship / Apps is the future!



## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

I'm sure this title "Tivo sinking ship / Apps is the future!" will stir things up, but it is time to say it for what it is. After seeing no comments on a previous post regarding Kodi app working on Tivo, it made me realize that this post is needed for discussion. Let me set the record straight, I'm a longtime user of Tivo from day one & have seen many good changes, but times have changed. No disrespect to anyone here, but the future is apps & will be the downfall of Tivo. If you read other sites especially the younger crowd, you will see this mentioned time after time that availability of apps, Android/Apple play store & downloading apps is mandatory. The only people that have Tivo is the older people like me, but the next generation has already said apps is the future. Yes Tivo was flagship when it comes to organizing,recording & OTA models (nice), but this is not enough for the future. Don't get me wrong, I love my Tivo & will go down in this sinking ship to the last day, but there is still hope if the new owners of Tivo will listen to the younger crowd. I don't know anyone at College level that has Tivo, Cable or Satellite. This new generation is using Internet apps (especially Kodi app that gets everything & more), Youtube, Netflix & of course all the social media like Facebook etc... This younger crowd doesn't care about recording shows, because there is an app out there to watch that show. Tivo has tried and added apps like Youtube, Netflix & if you dig deep you can locate Facebook, but most of the other apps are no good & laughed at when compared to what is available on the internet. They say why Tivo when just one app like Kodi is better. I sure hope the new owners of Tivo will survey the younger generation & make the changes needed to survive. Tivo does have hope, they need to design a Tivo as an open source box, which will allow the availability of all apps, a browser & everything that is available out there. The redesign would of course include there traditional recording & OTA antenna. Recording & OTA is needed for the older people, as it not needed for the newer generation because everything is already there in a app on the internet. One note recording must be limited to OTA only for legal purposes. Well I sure hope Tivo makes some big changes, but if not I was there at the beginning & will sink with them to the end, because I love my Tivo. Come on Tivo, listen to the next generation & become not just the flagship of recording, but flagship of opensources boxes & everything else out there as they were in the early days. damiansnpvp4


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I Hope they don't listen to them too much because obviously they don't care much for quality if they are doing streaming only.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

TiVo should have stuck to making the DVR function better rather than adding hard to use pitiful apps that don't work as well as the equivalent on smart TVs or tablets. If they really really wanted apps, they should have made an optional add-on module that is basically an android tablet that can run all the android apps and just happens to use the same screen and remote .


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TiVo will continue to play a role as a top-notch DVR for folks who want that. Hopefully the newly merged TiVo/Rovi corporation will still support their retail DVRs. Whether they ever introduce any new models or not, I see no logical reason why they won't continue to offer (hopefully high-quality) service to those retail DVRs currently in use for several more years.

But hoping that TiVo can pivot and evolve into a major force in the world of app-based streaming entertainment is, well, wishful thinking. It's just not going to happen. It's not who they are and the field is already crowded with established and successful players. TiVo has secured its place in history as the original DVR. But technology advances, social preferences change and time marches on. Reminds me of the title of a good documentary I recently watched about the rise and eventual fall of Tower Records:

All Things Must Pass

(FYI, it's directed by Colin Hanks, Tom's son, and is currently airing on Showtime.)


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

People like Kodi because it's a way to view pirated material. Why pay for tv or movie rentals when you can get it all for free. I doubt that is a good model for the future.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

UCLABB said:


> People like Kodi because it's a way to view pirated material. Why pay for tv or movie rentals when you can get it all for free. I doubt that is a good model for the future.


Agreed. I had not heard of it before this post, and then realized it was XBMC re-branded. Kodi itself is merely a platform, all the good stuff is via 3rd party add-ons. And as you note, the "good stuff" is generally pirated content, which is not a great business model for big growth or widespread adoption.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

UCLABB said:


> People like Kodi because it's a way to view pirated material. Why pay for tv or movie rentals when you can get it all for free. I doubt that is a good model for the future.


Kodi is not presently illegal, so stream all you want. Downloading & recording is where the problem is. This has been reviewed by legal personnel & determined throughout the internet that after a hard uphill battle streaming laws will change in 5-10yrs. After streaming laws change, it won't really matter because people will block there VPN number as they do now when downloading from torrent sites, so Kodi is here to stay if a person wants it or not. As for Tivo redesign by adding an open source box, it does not tarnish them at all. A open source box is no apps installed, so you install your own apps good or bad. We can not hold Tivo responsible for what apps are installed, just as we can not hold Microsoft responsible for what people install. I see what you are trying to say, but there is no good or bad model for Tivo designing an open source box.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

tatergator1 said:


> Agreed. I had not heard of it before this post, and then realized it was XBMC re-branded. Kodi itself is merely a platform, all the good stuff is via 3rd party add-ons. And as you note, the "good stuff" is generally pirated content, which is not a great business model for big growth or widespread adoption.


What I'm talking about is a open source box, which is nothing inside. There is many open source boxes out there now & nobody holds them accountable for what is inside, so why should Tivo be responsible for what apps are added. Microsoft is not responsible for what you add into your computer. You don't have to add Kodi, there are a thousand other great apps, you pick your own as everyone already does on their devices.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I guess I don't see the point of caring whether TiVo adapts and morphs to fit the future trends -- whatever they are. Fortunately we have a robust free-market, free-enterprise system that will provide the electronic devices we want as long as we are willing to pay for them -- and fortunately, so far, we can.

The only practical reason to care if TiVo stays healthy is to ensure support for the TiVo's we already own. Anything beyond that is just fanboy sentimentality.

BTW, original poster, for someone who claims to be a long-time TiVo lover you are pretty late joining this forum.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

Damiansnpvp4 said:


> Kodi is not presently illegal, so stream all you want. Downloading & recording is where the problem is. This has been reviewed by legal personnel & determined throughout the internet that after a hard uphill battle streaming laws will change in 5-10yrs. After streaming laws change, it won't really matter because people will block there VPN number as they do now when downloading from torrent sites, so Kodi is here to stay if a person wants it or not. As for Tivo redesign by adding an open source box, it does not tarnish them at all. A open source box is no apps installed, so you install your own apps good or bad. We can not hold Tivo responsible for what apps are installed, just as we can not hold Microsoft responsible for what people install. I see what you are trying to say, but there is no good or bad model for Tivo designing an open source box.


Yes, Kodi is just a vehicle and yes, viewing the material is not illegal as far as I know. However, uploading or supplying the material does violate laws as far as I know. And, while it may be here to stay, I don't think pirated content is a significant player in the future. If it ever became more than a bit player, big business and government would put the kabosh to it.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Apps suck, never use them. I dont stream crap.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

UCLABB said:


> Yes, Kodi is just a vehicle and yes, viewing the material is not illegal as far as I know. However, uploading or supplying the material does violate laws as far as I know. And, while it may be here to stay, I don't think pirated content is a significant player in the future. If it ever became more than a bit player, big business and government would put the kabosh to it.


Forget Kodi, you don't want it, don't install the app. This is not just about Kodi, it is about being able to install any app to your liking as you already do on your other devices. Why is it that if Tivo became an open box it is shaking hands with the devil. Your Smartphone, PC (windows/mac), Xbox1, Apple TV & Android boxes already have these features. There is many great apps that we use everyday & how did we get them, we installed them on our devices. All I'm asking is for Tivo to have the same features as our devices inorder to keep up with the times. Tivo's apps are just plain no good & you all know that! As I said before apps are the future & Tivo's apps will not carry it on to the next generation.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

DVR's will be viable for another 20 years. They just stopped making VCR's this month.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

Tivo already has a Plex client. What does Kodi do that Plex cannot?

I personally would rather see a lot less apps on the Tivo server and have them added to the Mini instead. Make the Mini a universal client. Or maybe eliminate the Mini by creating an open API that any Android TV or AppleTV could grab onto to stream the Tivo content. Tivo has a niche in that it's the only service available that can record DRM shows via cable card with the exception of the old WMC software. It's a great DVR but other devices can do the streaming better. Rovi should work on the integration with these other devices and sell software licenses rather than trying to expand into areas that it is not good at. I'd pay the cost of a Mini for the software that could be added to either an Android TV or an Apple TV that would give me the same functionality as the Mini.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

mlcarson said:


> Tivo already has a Plex client. What does Kodi do that Plex cannot?
> 
> I personally would rather see a lot less apps on the Tivo server and have them added to the Mini instead. Make the Mini a universal client. Or maybe eliminate the Mini by creating an open API that any Android TV or AppleTV could grab onto to stream the Tivo content. Tivo has a niche in that it's the only service available that can record DRM shows via cable card with the exception of the old WMC software. It's a great DVR but other devices can do the streaming better. Rovi should work on the integration with these other devices and sell software licenses rather than trying to expand into areas that it is not good at. I'd pay the cost of a Mini for the software that could be added to either an Android TV or an Apple TV that would give me the same functionality as the Mini.


Note: I'm going to answer a question about Kodi app, so it has nothing to do with Tivo running so called pirate material or developing their future in this area. You could just as well run Kodi app on your smartphone or PC & nobody is saying your smartphone or PC/Microsoft is shady. I would like to see Tivo as an open source box to run any apps, just as you are already running your smartphones & other devices. 
Yes I have seen the Plex on Tivo & I heard that Plex can play Kodi app, but I have not figured it out & have not heard of any Tivo running Kodi through Plex. I'm not sure it will work because no response on an earlier post. To run Kodi app you need either a PC, Xbox1, Apple TV or most people use Android Boxes like Matricom G-Box Q2 or Amazon Firestick... Kodi app gets everything & I mean everything, every show, every episode from TV, movies, sports, documentaries, music, concerts, PPV events, live TV, youtube, email. It even runs Netflix, Hulu, but with normal subscription. Kodi app and the android boxes are DLNA, so you can stream from your PC. I'm just touching the surface, it would take an hour typing a list of what is available. Kodi is not illegal, because streaming laws have not been developed, but I'm sure they will be in 5 years or so. 
I love Tivo, but would like to see it android compatible to run real apps, not like Tivo has now. I'm not saying Kodi is the type of real apps needed, you can take it or leave it. I'm saying we need a choice as we already have on our other devices. DLNA is universal, but Tivo seemed to miss that, so Streambaby had to be developed by us Tivo users, so we can stream movies from our PC. Everything is tried & tested for the taking, but not done. I mentioned earlier that I do not know anyone at college level & younger that has Tivo, most never heard of it. Infact in the last year talking to college students, they say they don't even have cable, its Netflix, Internet Apps, Youtube, Kodi & social media Facebook etc... Yes Tivo is great for us old people, but will die if it does not adapt.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

mlcarson said:


> Tivo already has a Plex client. What does Kodi do that Plex cannot?
> 
> I personally would rather see a lot less apps on the Tivo server and have them added to the Mini instead. Make the Mini a universal client. Or maybe eliminate the Mini by creating an open API that any Android TV or AppleTV could grab onto to stream the Tivo content. Tivo has a niche in that it's the only service available that can record DRM shows via cable card with the exception of the old WMC software. It's a great DVR but other devices can do the streaming better. Rovi should work on the integration with these other devices and sell software licenses rather than trying to expand into areas that it is not good at. I'd pay the cost of a Mini for the software that could be added to either an Android TV or an Apple TV that would give me the same functionality as the Mini.


Plex is pure garbage, buggy and slow, Kodi is well coded, can stream ISO's off a server, Plex cant.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

schatham said:


> DVR's will be viable for another 20 years. They just stopped making VCR's this month.


Oh my gosh I didn't know VCR's were still being made, WOW! Even if you are right & you may be, 20 years slowly dying may be avoided with a total redesign. AOL Browser & email is almost dead, the Cable & Satellite companies are also dying losing huge customers every month. Many new technologies are opening up & it looks like Google may come in for the motherload with some sort of all in one system, plus internet for everyone using air balloons. Tivo is not the same as they were in the early days. They were a household name & now nobody knows them, only us old people! We can hold on to how great they were & they were or how great their DVR still is, but that is not good enough because the next generation has never heard of them. They need a redesign keeping DVR function & OTA for us old people, but make it an open source box for all apps plus any other functions that the next generation is using. I believe this is the safety net needed for Tivo, but honesty don't see Tivo doing it. Google is too big now, they have mega resources & big plans for the future. Google will most likely come in for the motherload once & for all. Oh well I was with Tivo at the start & will most likely sink with them to the very end. I still love my Tivo.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

foghorn2 said:


> Plex is pure garbage, buggy and slow, Kodi is well coded, can stream ISO's off a server, Plex cant.


You got that right, Plex is horrible! I have streamed almost 1000 Movies/TV shows & Plex rarely works. That is why Tivo users developed Streambaby, yes that is right people not Tivo. Streambaby works so well, it plays just about everything you throw at it. I can only count on one hand of problems I had streaming almost 1000 movies/TV's that were in different formats, great job to the developers. Yes to Kodi running well & getting better everyday, oh again developed by people like you & I, not a company.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

foghorn2 said:


> Apps suck, never use them. I dont stream crap.


If you mean Tivo apps suck, 10/4 to you. If you are saying all apps suck, well you must not have a smartphone because it is loaded with apps that are Android or Apple & work very well. If you watch Youtube or lets say Netflix, you are streaming.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

Ok over 10,000 people at my work & after a year I finally found someone that also has Tivo, he is an old fart like me. Tivo is not that popular anymore & younger people have never heard of them. It is sad, a household name & now who? Tivo needs redesign for the next generation.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I am going to guess anybody claiming that streaming pirated content is legal will be unable to refer me to a court ruling, US Justice Department ruling, copyright attorney opinion or any other credible source for the claim. To me this is just the same nonsense people would state regarding cable descramblers, programmed satellite receiver cards, or other method of viewing content without having acquired rights to do so. It is OK to use the devices, it is illegal to make them or sell them is the nonsense claim.

I am not an attorney but this isn't even close, of course streaming pirated content is illegal. Why do you think copyright owners are able to get Google to remove pirated content from YouTube and get YouTube users that upload the content banned? The viewers aren't being punished as far as I know but that doesn't make it legal, some crimes can be committed without consequence because of the difficulty and expense required to enforce the law. Internet providers have certainly blocked access to piracy streaming sites, blocked users from accessing, not just uploaders, and based on what I have read terminated accounts of users doing nothing more than streaming from the piracy sites. Pretty hard to imagine all of this would be possible without suit if users were just enjoying their perfectly legal right to view pirated content as long as it isn't downloaded to a storage device.

As far as Kodi, there are legal uses so yes it is legal but that isn't a blanket authority to use it for whatever you choose and that will be legal.

Here is one of many articles online discussing the issue, this one regards a pending bill to make illegal streaming of copyright protected movies and TV shows a felony. The streaming is already illegal according to any legal opinion I can find, this bill would give some teeth to prosecuting the crime, making it a felony.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/senate-committee-votes-make-illegal-202503


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Damiansnpvp4 said:


> Ok over 10,000 people at my work & after a year I finally found someone that also has Tivo, he is an old fart like me. Tivo is not that popular anymore & younger people have never heard of them. It is sad, a household name & now who? Tivo needs redesign for the next generation.


TiVos (or Stand Alone DVRs in general) are niche products. No reasons to rehash the reasons why they just are and again for reason that don't need to be rehashed will stay that way. Adding apps isn't going to change that. If tomorrow the TiVo added all the apps available on a Roku to the Bolt and they worked as well as they do on a Roku, while sales might increase marginally, it would still be a niche product.

However DVRs in general are not a niche product and are in something like half of all households. That is not likely to change much. This assumption that because kids and/or young adults don't currently own/use DVRs or traditional linear TV service means that they never will isn't based on anything other than wishful thinking. Guess what most kids/young adults don't own/buy expensive cars, fancy homes, or Viagra either. Big surprise when kids/young adults are no longer kids/young adults things change.

In my opinion the biggest threat to DVRs and for TiVo to be able to continue to provide stand alone DVRs is the Pay TV industry itself. If the Government doesn't force them to be open then they will kill off stand alone DVRs by refusing to support them and will then move to force VoD and/or reduce the users ability to control their rented DVR viewing experience.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

There is plenty of hype about what is cool and fashionable and it is great we have plenty of options, particularly Netflix. But how long has there been streaming, what about 10 years ? Things don't change that fast and really, at this point UHD and ATSC 3, might just go the way of HD radio and 3D content, lots of hype but in the end, nothing all that better than what we already have. There is not any compelling reason for future widespread change.

As long as the cable companies keep on raising rates and as long as broadcast tv has many of the most popular shows there will be people cutting the cabletv cord and buying/subscribing DVR's.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Chris Gerhard said:


> . ........
> Here is one of many articles online discussing the issue, this one regards a pending bill to make illegal streaming of copyright protected movies and TV shows a felony. The streaming is already illegal according to any legal opinion I can find, this bill would give some teeth to prosecuting the crime, making it a felony.
> 
> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/senate-committee-votes-make-illegal-202503


Wow, where do we get the law enforcement resources needed to enforce this? At the moment we can't successfully prevent terrorist attacks, illegal immigration, drug trafficking and inner-city gang shootings, all of which deserve much higher priority than illegal streaming IMHO.

Don't get me wrong -- I deplore stealing copyrighted content -- it's immoral. But this bill is just another instance of politicians pandering to some big donors with yet another practically meaningless (and unenforceable) law. If passed, it will have about as much impact as declaring a national "Do Not Pirate" day. If this works we can attack enforcement of our speeding laws on the highways, which at least 50% of drivers break by 5 mph or more.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Damiansnpvp4 said:


> Ok over 10,000 people at my work & after a year I finally found someone that also has Tivo, he is an old fart like me. Tivo is not that popular anymore & younger people have never heard of them. It is sad, a household name & now who? Tivo needs redesign for the next generation.


You'll get over your sadness eventually, without needing counseling, I hope! 

You've got it wrong. TiVo doesn't need to do anything. The "next generation" wants video delivery to evolve and they will get that evolution and the devices to support it (from a multitude of potential providers, not necessarily from TiVo). I don't share your apparently totally emotional investment in having TiVo alone satisfy that need. What percentage of TiVo employees have been there ten years or more? If TiVo doesn't evolve as you desire, the (remaining) employees will just end up working for another company that needs their talents to produce the devices and software to satisfy the "next generation"


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Damiansnpvp4 said:


> What I'm talking about is a open source box, which is nothing inside. There is many open source boxes out there now & nobody holds them accountable for what is inside, so why should Tivo be responsible for what apps are added. Microsoft is not responsible for what you add into your computer. You don't have to add Kodi, there are a thousand other great apps, you pick your own as everyone already does on their devices.


An open source box you are suggesting would never get cable card certification. So yeah, streaming only or OTA only - it is a fine solution, but for us that want linear cable, it isn't a solution that will ever happen.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

I haven't had any problems streaming MKV's off a server with Plex. Rip to MKV or MP4 rather than an ISO container format. The speed of Plex probably has more to do with your Tivo hardware than the Plex server. That's why I wish Tivo could create an app for Android TV/Apple TV for Tivo-Mini functionality. Rovi doesn't really want to be in the hardware business anyway so splitting off the Mini functionality to a software-only model would give the best functionality to customers. I thought both IOS and Android TV could support PlayReady DRM. As long as the files stayed on the Tivo, it seems like the DRM folk would be happy.



foghorn2 said:


> Plex is pure garbage, buggy and slow, Kodi is well coded, can stream ISO's off a server, Plex cant.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

It's the responsibility of those that host online content to insure legality. The person clicking on a link has no way to verify what they are viewing isn't legal.

Ripping DVDs and Blurays is a violation of the Digital millennium copyright act and is definitely illegal.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> It's the responsibility of those that host online content to insure legality. The person clicking on a link has no way to verify what they are viewing isn't legal.
> ..............


You are technically correct I think. But come on! There are many people clicking on those links who know full well they are getting copyrighted content -- a number of them even proudly proclaim it on this and other forums -- seemingly feeling it's their right, based on various flimsy rationalizations.

I should know -- I'm a reformed sinner. When I first started running PlayOn and Kodi a couple of years ago, I didn't resist the power to cheat. But eventually my conscience won out and I stopped it. I have to admit I'm still cheating on the highway speed limits though, rationalizing that the circumstances are different than for video downloading.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Damiansnpvp4 said:


> Ok over 10,000 people at my work & after a year I finally found someone that also has Tivo, he is an old fart like me. Tivo is not that popular anymore & younger people have never heard of them. It is sad, a household name & now who? Tivo needs redesign for the next generation.


TiVo has never been very popular. It has always been a niche product.


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## hrosee (Jun 30, 2016)

I just got my Tivo OTA a couple of weeks ago. Old fart here too but what other choices are there for cutting the cable cord. None really that work. I tried Tablo first. What a joke. It died about every 5 minutes. For Over the Air Tivo is it right now.

With more and more people cutting the cable cord there is no better choice with at least 4 tuners than Tivo.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

aaronwt said:


> TiVo has never been very popular. It has always been a niche product.


Oh you are wrong, Tivo in the early days was well known, a household name. They was hooked up with Direct TV & Tivo was the only DVR for Direct TV. Tivo & Direct TV were running MPEG2, until Direct TV changed over to MPEG4 & Tivo did not want anything to do with MPEG4. They had war over this format & then Tivo left Direct TV. At this time Direct TV started making there own DVR's, I remember this so clear because I hated that DVR, especially the remote. I tried Direct TV for a number of years, but missed Tivo. The peanut remote has an amazing feeling to it that no other remote has been able to capture, plus an addictive sound when pressing the keys. A number of years ago I cut the cord with Direct TV, I hated the fact that they charged for OTA channels that are already free & hated why I was paying for so many channels, when I was only using 7 channels & 4 out of the 7 were OTA, the free channels. I now use Tivo OTA, Tivo Mini, Kodi, Youtube, Internet apps & download torrents (with VPN#) for vacation. I hate Direct TV charging for OTA & extra channels so much that they have driven me to accept the sin of the torrents from time to time.


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

Television/video delivery is clearly changing and will continue to change a great deal in the next 10 years. However, with the exception of young people starting out on their own (cable nevers) I rarely talk to people that don't watch or subscribe to some type of linear television. Rather that is cable, satellite, or over the air TV it is still the vast majority of established households. Yes, many are supplementing with services such as Netflix as well. And I also agree that young households are likely to eventually move towards some type of subscription TV or OTA as they get older and more established. That is until the market fully evolves into a different model for consumers. 

So I think for this majority of the market TiVo is probably right on track with first and foremost providing a solid DVR experience while continuing to incorporate the major streaming apps into it. Certainly they need to continue to evolve the apps they offer as various streaming options gain popularity. And they don't necessarily need to be the best streaming product as long as it works reasonably well and the integration is done OK. Personally I watch about 90% OTA television supplemented with Netflix and Amazon Prime subscriptions. I would much rather have that all incorporated into the one box (TiVo) than to have to jump around to different devices, inputs, splintered search options etc. I love the convenience TiVo offers us even though I have better streaming devices already connected to my TV (apple TV, Roku, Firestick, and a Samsung Smart TV). My first choice is always to just watch through my TiVo.

TiVo will never be the right answer for everyone and I can't see it becoming cutting edge as a streaming product. That just isn't it's market nor in the company DNA. TiVo's biggest hurdle is and has been competing in an industry that makes it just too easy to accept whatever DVR/cable box solution the subscription service bundles for them. People naturally want to keep it simple and uncomplicated. Deciding to buck that trend and go with a TiVo adds considerable hassles, even if it is a better solution. Had there been better anti monopoly legislation in place that would have forced subscription TV service providers to give you a true choice of competitor products (such as TiVo) it would be a much different story.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Damiansnpvp4 said:


> Oh you are wrong, Tivo in the early days was well known, a household name. They was hooked up with Direct TV & Tivo was the only DVR for Direct TV. Tivo & Direct TV were running MPEG2, until Direct TV changed over to MPEG4 & Tivo did not want anything to do with MPEG4. ............


It was still a niche product. Sure many people knew what a TiVo was back then, but the vast majority of people did not have one.


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## dahacker (Jan 14, 2004)

Last I checked, 64% of US homes have a DVR. The only reason that Tivo is a small slice of that 64% is because people are lazy and want to be hand held through installation. Also, Americans can't accurately determine that Tivo is a better financial deal in the long run.

So, what is better right now, streaming, VOD, or DVRs?

For me, a Tivo DVR is better right now because it has far superior image quality and allows me to skip commercials. Current VOD is riddled with unskippable commercials. Current LEGAL streaming is VERY hit or miss with regards to image quality and does cost extra, or is riddled with commercials. My time is very valuable to me. I can watch an entire NFL game in 40-60 minutes. This will probably always be impossible with streaming.

So yea! You think apps and streaming will rule the world. Probably, but they suck.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

TeamPace said:


> Television/video delivery is clearly changing and will continue to change a great deal in the next 10 years. However, with the exception of young people starting out on their own (cable nevers) I rarely talk to people that don't watch or subscribe to some type of linear television. Rather that is cable, satellite, or over the air TV it is still the vast majority of established households. Yes, many are supplementing with services such as Netflix as well. And I also agree that young households are likely to eventually move towards some type of subscription TV or OTA as they get older and more established. That is until the market fully evolves into a different model for consumers.
> ...........





dahacker said:


> Last I checked, 64% of US homes have a DVR. The only reason that Tivo is a small slice of that 64% is because people are lazy and want to be hand held through installation. Also, Americans can't accurately determine that Tivo is a better financial deal in the long run.
> .........


Yes, paraphrasing a famous statement by Mark Twain: "Reports of [my death] the death of cable TV are greatly exaggerated". 

Rather than blaming lazy people for TiVo's small market penetration, I blame digital cable, which resulted in so many frustrating CableCARD and Tuning Adapter frustrations, which usually left users in the middle with neither TiVo nor the Cable cos willing to take ownership and fix the problems. Anyone but a dedicated tinkerer would give up in those circumstances.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

dahacker said:


> Last I checked, 64% of US homes have a DVR. The only reason that Tivo is a small slice of that 64% is because people are lazy and want to be hand held through installation. Also, Americans can't accurately determine that Tivo is a better financial deal in the long run.


Plus a big hunk of those DVRs are running on Dishnetwork, DirectTV, ATT&T Uverse, and/or Google fiber systems where you can not use a TiVo.



dahacker said:


> So, what is better right now, streaming, VOD, or DVRs?
> 
> For me, a Tivo DVR is better right now because it has far superior image quality and allows me to skip commercials. Current VOD is riddled with unskippable commercials. Current LEGAL streaming is VERY hit or miss with regards to image quality and does cost extra, or is riddled with commercials. My time is very valuable to me. I can watch an entire NFL game in 40-60 minutes. This will probably always be impossible with streaming.
> 
> So yea! You think apps and streaming will rule the world. Probably, but they suck.


I think the above is what lots of us around here think and don't understand the people who seem to be wishing for an end to linear broadcasts and DVRs. I for one see no reason not to want all options.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dlfl said:


> You are technically correct I think. But come on! There are many people clicking on those links who know full well they are getting copyrighted content -- a number of them even proudly proclaim it on this and other forums -- seemingly feeling it's their right, based on various flimsy rationalizations.
> 
> I should know -- I'm a reformed sinner. When I first started running PlayOn and Kodi a couple of years ago, I didn't resist the power to cheat. But eventually my conscience won out and I stopped it. I have to admit I'm still cheating on the highway speed limits though, rationalizing that the circumstances are different than for video downloading.


When you sub to Netflix streaming and watch a movie using Netflix you must assume that Netflix has the right to stream that movie, I guess you could ask Netflix to send you the agreement for that movie. People with little knowledge may come across say *Popcorn Time * and think the movies on that sight are part of your internet cost, it going to shut down soon, (or morph into Popcorn Time online) but people have been using it for years. Kitty porn is the only download that the FBI really goes after stopping and will prosecute anybody that has done it, if they can catch them.


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## phughes200 (Jul 24, 2014)

While I would love an integrated product, I can live with my TiVo and an separate streaming device. Might be simpler if TiVo had an HDMI input that allow the streaming device to be plug in. You can't legally record most streaming content so that the ability to record HDMI input isn't needed. 

I just don't see TiVo being able to catch up in the streaming apps market. They seem to have their hands full just supporting the current product. They have made some nice improvements with the skip mode.


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## jmerr74 (Nov 3, 2015)

I am so happy I joined the TiVo family again last year. I missed it immensely. Until it goes the way of the Dodo my wife, daughter, and I are gong to have it. My Xbox One, TiVo, and Minis are all the devices I need. I have all the apps and bases covered... Xbox One has a browser so everything I could possibly want I get.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

I'm not asking Tivo to do the impossible, or create anything as they have been trying to do in the past. I'm asking for them to make it easy for them & us to use products that have already been tried & tested. Designing a box that has DLNA is a great easy tried & test feature that is universal. No they leave that out & make us hop skip & jump to stream from our computer. Designing a box as an open source to be able to add apps is almost universal, This area has been tried & tested already with Android/Apple/Google, but no they try to either make up their own apps or control untried, unknown apps that go into their box. The Tivo apps are crappy, & create so much work on trying to keep them up, rather than making their box compatible with the heavy hitters. This is not hard to make changes that are available & already working. Tivo doesn't have to create anything, its already there for the taking. Google has already said they are working on an all in one system that includes free internet to everyone by weather balloons. I'm sure they also include some type of DVR. They also said Cable & Satellite is dyeing now & Googles setup will be the death of Cable/Satellite. Google has huge plans, resources & is coming in for the motherload. People think that Tivo with there crappy apps is going to impress the world because they have an outstanding DVR, don't think so because Google will have some type of DVR too plus apps, free internet & all the bells & whistles


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

jmerr74 said:


> I am so happy I joined the TiVo family again last year. I missed it immensely. Until it goes the way of the Dodo my wife, daughter, and I are gong to have it. My Xbox One, TiVo, and Minis are all the devices I need. I have all the apps and bases covered... Xbox One has a browser so everything I could possibly want I get.


I have used Xbox360 browser & it is outstanding. It works so well with the snap in keyboard I can't imagine how they could improve it, but I'm sure they did. Tivo has a browser that is confusing & difficult to install. The browser is horrible, worst I've ever seen, looks like it was created in the 1970's, really! No disrespect to the creator, he doesn't belong to Tivo. Tivo go to Xbox's browser & see what an amazing job they did.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Damiansnpvp4 said:


> Oh you are wrong, Tivo in the early days was well known, a household name. They was hooked up with Direct TV & Tivo was the only DVR for Direct TV. Tivo & Direct TV were running MPEG2, until Direct TV changed over to MPEG4 & Tivo did not want anything to do with MPEG4. They had war over this format & then Tivo left Direct TV. At this time Direct TV started making there own DVR's, I remember this so clear because I hated that DVR, especially the remote. I tried Direct TV for a number of years, but missed Tivo. The peanut remote has an amazing feeling to it that no other remote has been able to capture, plus an addictive sound when pressing the keys. A number of years ago I cut the cord with Direct TV, I hated the fact that they charged for OTA channels that are already free & hated why I was paying for so many channels, when I was only using 7 channels & 4 out of the 7 were OTA, the free channels. I now use Tivo OTA, Tivo Mini, Kodi, Youtube, Internet apps & download torrents (with VPN#) for vacation. I hate Direct TV charging for OTA & extra channels so much that they have driven me to accept the sin of the torrents from time to time.


Your view of the TiVo-DirecTV relationship is quite inaccurate. It was DirecTV that ended the relationship during the time DirecTV was owned by News Corp. News Corp had their own DVR system from their British SkyTV operation which, of course, they could use without having to split fees with TiVo. DirecTV introduced their own DVRs based on that software. After News Corp sold their stake in DirecTV, development at DirecTV continued using the News Corp software as a base. When TiVo started suing every DVR maker in sight, DirecTV headed off a lawsuit by entering into an agreement to market the current THR22 DVR and pay royalties for use of TiVo's patents.

Sorry for the diversion from the main topic.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> Your view of the TiVo-DirecTV relationship is quite inaccurate. It was DirecTV that ended the relationship during the time DirecTV was owned by News Corp. News Corp had their own DVR system from their British SkyTV operation which, of course, they could use without having to split fees with TiVo. DirecTV introduced their own DVRs based on that software. After News Corp sold their stake in DirecTV, development at DirecTV continued using the News Corp software as a base. When TiVo started suing every DVR maker in sight, DirecTV headed off a lawsuit by entering into an agreement to market the current THR22 DVR and pay royalties for use of TiVo's patents. Sorry for the diversion from the main topic.


Lot more inaccurate in his posts than just that. At least it is entertaining.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Damiansnpvp4 said:


> I'm not asking Tivo to do the impossible, or create anything as they have been trying to do in the past. ............. Tivo doesn't have to create anything, its already there for the taking. .............


LOL. Sounds so easy I'm surprised you don't start your own company to do it. Get real!


Damiansnpvp4 said:


> People think that Tivo with there crappy apps is going to impress the world because they have an outstanding DVR, don't think so because Google will have some type of DVR too plus apps, free internet & all the bells & whistles


Don't think many people believe TiVo is "going to impress the world". If Google develops what we want, and it's reasonably priced, we will buy it. What's the big worry about that? Again, I don't get your great concern with saving TiVo. It's not the same company or people that pioneered the DVR 16 years ago so what or whom are you being loyal to? I like my TiVo a lot -- but I'm not in love with it. You might serve your purposes better by lobbying someone with big bucks (e.g., Google) to produce the type of device you want.

Have you noticed (as evidenced in this thread) that there is no consensus as to exactly what the "next generation" wants?


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## ROSCOMMON (Apr 16, 2009)

I don't understand much about Streaming and APPS but after being a TIVO user for sixteen years I will say this. If you are a sports fan and don't have TIVO for the slow motion and frame by frame viewing you are out of touch.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

Direct TV pretty much forced me to use there DVR. At 1st they allowed me to use Tivo, but Direct TV changed over to Mpeg4 & they told me TiVo's unwillingness to upgrade from Mpeg2 to Mpeg4 has desolved there partnership. They said I could use TiVo but would only get SD limited stations. The next box Direct TV put out was required as they no longer worked with TiVo. Now this is what Direct TV was telling there customers & I'm passing it along to you. As for it being inaccurate maybe so I don't know, this is what was being told & I went through it.


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

dlfl said:


> LOL. Sounds so easy I'm surprised you don't start your own company to do it. Get real!
> 
> Yes I am real, are we really going to discuss this... Why are you so hostile to the idea of a universal box that something in it could be appealing to everyone. I'm talking about tried & tested Android compatible open source Tivo box to install apps, DLNA compatible, maybe a Browser & HDMI inputs to add any other device they may have. These would be a nice addition to Tivo's DVR functions. If you had to create all this yourself it would be almost impossible, so yes this is classified as easy because its already tried, tested & used everyday. Why such opposition, you don't want compatibility, DLNA, Apps, browser, HDMI, that's fine, just don't use it & only use the DVR functions. Most of Tivo's apps now are not desirable, but they did add Netflix, Youtube & a few others which is right on tried & tested. Tivo realized that because of internet technology they needed to reach out to a new generation. As for you the DVR function is just fine for you & that is great I'm happy for you, but other people may be getting tired of switching from each device & would like a one stop compatible device as I do.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Damiansnpvp4 said:


> ............
> Yes I am real, are we really going to discuss this... Why are you so hostile to the idea of a universal box that something in it could be appealing to everyone. ......


Not hostile to that idea at all -- what made you think that?

I do think you have rose-colored glasses on about issues like (1) cost and ease of development of the "universal" box and (2) you don't really know the market appeal of what *you* want in that box, I.e., how many people it would appeal to.

If I am hostile to skeptical about anything you propose it is your presumption that the supplier of such a box has to be TiVo -- as I have explained several times now.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

Damiansnpvp4 said:


> I'm not asking Tivo to do the impossible, or create anything as they have been trying to do in the past.





Damiansnpvp4 said:


> I'm talking about tried & tested Android compatible open source Tivo box to install apps


You're not asking TiVo to do the impossible, you just want them to give up control of their ecosystem (where they design the OS/apps) and rewrite their stuff for Android, where they'd be forced to move on Google's schedule when it comes to operating system matters?

All so you can have a single magical "universal device" that does everything?

Like others in this thread, I think millennials that grew up without cable aren't interested in DVRs, period. When they can get their streaming apps running on a Roku, AppleTV, etc for a FRACTION of the price of a TiVo, I don't see TiVo even being an option for them (regardless of how good the streaming apps on TiVo become).


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## Damiansnpvp4 (Feb 6, 2015)

aristoBrat said:


> You're not asking TiVo to do the impossible, you just want them to give up control of their ecosystem (where they design the OS/apps) and rewrite their stuff for Android, where they'd be forced to move on Google's schedule when it comes to operating system matters?
> 
> All so you can have a single magical "universal device" that does everything?
> 
> Like others in this thread, I think millennials that grew up without cable aren't interested in DVRs, period. When they can get their streaming apps running on a Roku, AppleTV, etc for a FRACTION of the price of a TiVo, I don't see TiVo even being an option for them (regardless of how good the streaming apps on TiVo become).


------------------

Ok if Tivo is just a DVR why do I see some apps? Why did they say streaming is just as important? I did not open this door in regards to & I quote from Tivo "Tivo puts it all together", See below. I'm only complaining that almost everything is difficult or unable to use because it is not universal. Tivo also says "Only Tivo connects all the dots," well that's why I'm complaining the dots are not all connected. Quote from Tivo "TiVo puts it all together: The entertainment landscape is more fractured than ever. In fact, the TV is no longer reserved for just TV anymore; streaming content is arguably just as important. Only TiVo connects all the dots in a way thats seamless, searchable and hassle-free."


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

aristoBrat said:


> You're not asking TiVo to do the impossible, you just want them to give up control of their ecosystem (where they design the OS/apps) and rewrite their stuff for Android, where they'd be forced to move on Google's schedule when it comes to operating system matters?


I don't believe TiVo writes their own apps. They beg and plead for partners to produce apps that work on TiVo, and if the partner happens to have a spare intern they let them write one (which is why the quality of apps is so awful compared to most android apps).
(It takes about 10 minutes to fire up the amazon app, for instance - I could be half way through the show on my tablet in the time I watch spinning circles on the TiVo).

No one has to beg and plead to get apps on android, media companies want to support android because they make money from it. An add-on android module that could seamlessly share the screen and remote with the TiVo would make infinitely more sense than TiVo desperately trying to get apps for a platform no one supports.

It would also make sense for people who just want the TiVo to be a DVR because it could be cheaper DVR without the android app module.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

tomhorsley said:


> I don't believe TiVo writes their own apps.


You're right -- I was more thinking all of the base TiVo apps ("Now Playing", etc) that TiVo would have to rewrite to run on Android.


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## dameatball (Feb 24, 2014)

_Come on Tivo, listen to the next generation & become not just the flagship of recording, but flagship of opensources boxes & everything else out there as they were in the early days. _

Older post, and you may feel differently now but my situation is similar to yours in that I started using Tivo quite awhile ago (maybe not that far relatively, but 2004). The harsh reality is Tivo doesn't care too much about Tivo anymore. I say this not because of the decline in functionality and it's dated subscription model, but the only thing we'll see from Tivo is more hardware to keep them in the DVR game, and trying to get the existing user base to buy new gear every few years.

I'll explain. They subscriber base ebbs and flows but they've been losing money for some time (in terms of the Tivo DVR business). They aren't really in the business of DVR's to be honest. They're in the business of lawsuits/enforcing patents - Far and away their most lucrative aspect of their business. They were the first to create a DVR and they've leveraged that into suing every major cable co and major brand that's since come out with a DVR.
(TiVo is trying to preserve its lucrative patent business by suing Samsung).

The technology is pretty antiquated by today's standard and the subscription model is silly (paying 15-20/month for a guide- that shows advertisements). This coupled with the fact they pimp as much as your watching habits to advertisers, there's not a huge upside when you boil it down. The HDHomerun front end on multiple devices already (windows, mac, ps3, xbox, nvidia shield, Firetv, android tv and mobile, ios etc, Smart Tv's) and most old desktop PC's or even NAS devices can be used as the DVR to serve recored content.

Tivo has a nice interface but it's hardly worth spending $800 on a lifetime nor paying $200/year subscription for (and certainly not worth the bloated price of the hardware). With the Rovi acquisition, they've already buckled down on using a lot of third party tools that made it convenient. I pay $10/month and I feel a bit silly paying that as I know better (I setup a hdhomerun a few months back). I certainly wont be spending anything on upgrades and simply waiting for Plex or Kodi to have full functionality built in (and simple for the family to use) and I'll move on for good. my two cents.


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## dameatball (Feb 24, 2014)

tomhorsley said:


> I don't believe TiVo writes their own apps. They beg and plead for partners to produce apps that work on TiVo, and if the partner happens to have a spare intern they let them write one (which is why the quality of apps is so awful compared to most android apps).
> (It takes about 10 minutes to fire up the amazon app, for instance - I could be half way through the show on my tablet in the time I watch spinning circles on the TiVo).
> 
> No one has to beg and plead to get apps on android, media companies want to support android because they make money from it. An add-on android module that could seamlessly share the screen and remote with the TiVo would make infinitely more sense than TiVo desperately trying to get apps for a platform no one supports.
> ...


Agreed, and the major problem (this is common among some smart tv manufacturer's as well) as they dont seem to have a huge incentive to keep software updated or spend time working with dev teams to make sure those apps are working as well as they could. It's used to market and sell devices, how big of a priority is it going to be? Except to say it will run much better on their upcoming new device..


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

dameatball said:


> _Come on Tivo, listen to the next generation & become not just the flagship of recording, but flagship of opensources boxes & everything else out there as they were in the early days. _
> 
> Older post, and you may feel differently now but my situation is similar to yours in that I started using Tivo quite awhile ago (maybe not that far relatively, but 2004). The harsh reality is Tivo doesn't care too much about Tivo anymore. I say this not because of the decline in functionality and it's dated subscription model, but the only thing we'll see from Tivo is more hardware to keep them in the DVR game, and trying to get the existing user base to buy new gear every few years.
> 
> ...


Interesting points, but inaccuracies. E.g. subscriptions are not "$800 on a lifetime nor paying $200/year subscription," nor "15-20/month for a guide." I don't think that most people would agree with your characterization of the "bloated price of the hardware"--to the contrary, more typically, people will opine that TiVo doesn't make money off its boxes. You write that TiVo is going to be bringing out more hardware to stay in the DVR game, and to get users to buy new gear every few years--but commenters here, based on recent Rovi comments, have been speculating to the opposite, that Rovi wants to have others produce the hardware and to focus on licensing. And I don't know how much TiVo currently is in the lawsuit business. Also, is TiVo currently losing money from its DVR business? I thought that it had crossed over into the black a few years back.

But other interesting points.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Tivo's hardware days are done, especially now that Comcast is going to move everyone to IP. Others will follow, Cablecard will die, OTA is not enough etc. Not to mention that Rovi wants no part of future hardware.

This is the best you will get, eventually DVRs as we know them will die and we'll all be subject to new streaming restrictions. But hey, look at all those shiny apps!


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> Tivo's hardware days are done . . . .


I've been very happy with my Toshiba Series 2 TiVo, which has a very nice feature that TiVo never put into its own boxes, a DVD player/writer.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> eventually DVRs as we know them will die and we'll all be subject to new streaming restrictions


I've never given this any thought, because we're watching less and less TV as time goes on, but won't DVRs for streaming be developed for consumers? I mean, I never use it anymore but I've already got that full functionality with off-the-shelf software supplemented by my own scripts and an old Fury and Hauppauge box and it seems to me it wouldn't take much engineering to make a consumer-friendly version of my Rube Goldberg setup.

Time shifting is legal. I guess there are DMCA provisions that are currently said to override, but if _all_ TV sources become streaming-only, and consumers still want to time shift with a Tivo-like box, won't such boxes be available?


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

Here's my 2 cents worth. Tivo is not sinking, but it may well be headed onto the rocks. How far in the future it will hit the rocks is hard to say. There are a lot of cable company boxes out there with cable cards inside. 
Even as more and more folks shift to "apps" I don't think this will happen overnight and even with VOD, I suspect there will be a market for DVR's, but it will be the ISP's that will have the lock on more traditional "looking" boxes and they will most likely be more refined (better guide etc.) and work more reliably.
My thinking get them on the "apps" model while offering their own boxes which will likely work better because it easy for them to manipulate how well the "apps" will work on outside boxes, plus Comcast has already announced that they planning to charge for connecting via a Roku or whatever. Somewhere in this process, the cablecard will will die or be "killed", something which will the cable companies have been wanting to do since the idea of a cablecard was introduced.
The other part of this plan is that they both have to and will kill "net neutrality" and add in "data caps". This will give the cable companies a distinct competitive advantage in peddling their services both streaming services and devices. It also allows them to step away from supporting anyone else's streaming boxes when they start not to work right.
I think this is pretty much what the future holds and Tivo will be dead as soon as cable cards begin losing support.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Wil said:


> I've never given this any thought, because we're watching less and less TV as time goes on, but won't DVRs for streaming be developed for consumers? I mean, I never use it anymore but I've already got that full functionality with off-the-shelf software supplemented by my own scripts and an old Fury and Hauppauge box and it seems to me it wouldn't take much engineering to make a consumer-friendly version of my Rube Goldberg setup.
> 
> Time shifting is legal. I guess there are DMCA provisions that are currently said to override, but if _all_ TV sources become streaming-only, and consumers still want to time shift with a Tivo-like box, won't such boxes be available?


They will definitely be available from the cable provider with an all IP solution. Whether they let other parties work with their system though, that is less likely.


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

aaronwt said:


> They will definitely be available from the cable provider with an all IP solution. Whether they let other parties work with their system though, that is less likely.


No I don't think there will be, that's very likely the goal. If/when providers go all IP everything will be on demand except live programming. If you want to see an episode you missed or see it again you will get it on demand. This bring control back to the programmers because just like with Netfix or Hulu etc now - they can decide to pull a series or episodes at anytime and you won't have a saved copy. A series or special that got alot of attention or did exceptionally well may cost you to see a second time, that's my prediction. As an example the Adele special in NYC.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

tampa8 said:


> No I don't think there will be, that's very likely the goal. If/when providers go all IP everything will be on demand except live programming. If you want to see an episode you missed or see it again you will get it on demand. This bring control back to the programmers because just like with Netfix or Hulu etc now - they can decide to pull a series or episodes at anytime and you won't have a saved copy. A series or special that got alot of attention or did exceptionally well may cost you to see a second time, that's my prediction. As an example the Adele special in NYC.


There is a substantial difference between managed IPTV systems (AT&T Uverse, Google fiber, etc.) and over the top (OTT) IPTV systems. Managed IPTV systems operate just like a QAM cable system and that is where Comcast is heading. While they will not likely allow third part STBs/DVRs they will have there own DVRs and even if the DVR is using cloud storage will operate like current day cable company DVRs. The OTT IPTV systems (PlayStation Vue, Sling TV, etc.) are cheaper because you get less and part of the less you get is no or less DVR functionality including locking out local (in home) recording.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tampa8 said:


> No I don't think there will be, that's very likely the goal. If/when providers go all IP everything will be on demand except live programming. If you want to see an episode you missed or see it again you will get it on demand. This bring control back to the programmers because just like with Netfix or Hulu etc now - they can decide to pull a series or episodes at anytime and you won't have a saved copy. A series or special that got alot of attention or did exceptionally well may cost you to see a second time, that's my prediction. As an example the Adele special in NYC.


FiOS is already going to an all IPTV solution later this year. People will still have a DVR and a hard drive that the content gets recorded to locally. With Comcast they will be storing the content in the cloud, like they do now with QAM. Personally if I have to rely on On Demand for shows, where they sometimes restrict your ability to FF, Rew etc and may make you watch commercials, I will stop watching broadcast TV before I'm forced to watch TV like I did in the 70's.


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## dameatball (Feb 24, 2014)

Mikeguy said:


> Interesting points, but inaccuracies. E.g. subscriptions are not "$800 on a lifetime nor paying $200/year subscription," nor "15-20/month for a guide." I don't think that most people would agree with your characterization of the "bloated price of the hardware"--to the contrary, more typically, people will opine that TiVo doesn't make money off its boxes. You write that TiVo is going to be bringing out more hardware to stay in the DVR game, and to get users to buy new gear every few years--but commenters here, based on recent Rovi comments, have been speculating to the opposite, that Rovi wants to have others produce the hardware and to focus on licensing. And I don't know how much TiVo currently is in the lawsuit business. Also, is TiVo currently losing money from its DVR business? I thought that it had crossed over into the black a few years back."
> 
> But other interesting points.


Well here are the subscription price points per Tivo, doesn't seem like I was terribly off unless I'm missing something https://www.tivo.com/buytivo/popups/popup_servicePlans.html
$15/month is $180 year or paying once/year is $150 (both annual plans) and the lifetime varies from $750-$1,050 all in depending on whether you get the 500g, 1Tb or 3 TB Tivo.

As far as the patent business as I linked in my earlier post, it was their main business unit as far as revenue goes (at least until the acquisition by Rovi, which is yet to be seen). When I say Tivo is in the DVR business, I mean they sell DVR's as a method of pursuing their lawsuits. Whoever makes the hardware for Tivo isn't as much a concern as the ability to show they're in the DVR business and patent infringement negatively impacts their ability to do business. Again with Rovi, it's new so who knows.

As far as the bloated hardware comment this is going to be more subjective. I base this on the fact that you can build a dvr for less, last much longer, much more powerful and offers a lot more flexibility in terms of watching recorded content around the house (opposed to a tivo stream). Actually don't have to build one, an old desktop will work. That said, I get that a lot of people pay for the fact it's easy and don't want to deal with the hassle and don't care about ads or their info being sold to 3rd parties.

I'm not trying to piss on Tivo, I've been a user for a long time. There are simply more flexible and less expensive options now (that make sense for me, not everyone). I do appreciate what your saying.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

dameatball said:


> Well here are the subscription price points per Tivo, doesn't seem like I was terribly off unless I'm missing something https://www.tivo.com/buytivo/popups/popup_servicePlans.html
> $15/month is $180 year or paying once/year is $150 (both annual plans) and the lifetime varies from $750-$1,050 all in depending on whether you get the 500g, 1Tb or 3 TB Tivo.
> 
> As far as the patent business as I linked in my earlier post, it was their main business unit as far as revenue goes (at least until the acquisition by Rovi, which is yet to be seen). When I say Tivo is in the DVR business, I mean they sell DVR's as a method of pursuing their lawsuits. Whoever makes the hardware for Tivo isn't as much a concern as the ability to show they're in the DVR business and patent infringement negatively impacts their ability to do business. Again with Rovi, it's new so who knows.
> ...


Thanks for your further explanation. Just following up, on the pricing side, one of the best TiVo deals of late is the Roamio OTA, for $400 retail and available for less, which includes a lifetime subscription--a heck of a deal, relatively speaking. (Unfortunately, it's OTA alone--but if you're handy with some relatively simple mods, a cablecard adapter can be added to that for $20, for cable content.) And while I know that TiVo has generated considerable revenue from its patents (as it should, if others are using its patented technology), I don't know the percentage and didn't see it in the linked article. I'm not sure that I see at least an absolute connection between TiVo selling boxes and its lawsuits, to explain that as the reason TiVo sells DVR's--an often-made complaint about the U.S. patent system is that it lets patent holders sue without themselves actually producing anything under their patents. And as to the hardware being "bloated," well, I guess that one could say that about most retail computers and many other retail computer devices.  Of course, your home-made device couldn't use TiVo's patented processes.

But I do understand that their are other options apart from TiVo (thank heavens--options and competition can be a good thing). When I last looked at them, they just didn't match up, for me, if I've been able to get a TiVo value-based box and subscription (such as the Roamio OTA or a box/subscription under promotion). But a challenge I see for TiVo is being able to keep its "past glories" up and being able to compete with those other options.


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