# Tivo-Spectrum problems ahead?



## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

I just read something about future Spectrum-Tivo problems. I use to Roamio, cable cards, Tivo Desktop, to download video to my computer. What is going to change? Any fixes?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

It might be helpful to post a link to what you read.

Otherwise, it’s likely related to the eventual death of any CableCARD support, on which TiVo’s depend.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

Charter Will Be Kicking TiVo To The Curb


By way of TechHive and the TiVo Community, we learn that Charter Communications has alerted Spectrum cable customers to replace TiVo ahead of obsolescence: As we continue to upgrade our networks and technology, CableCARDs will not be compatible with future service upgrades for some time. We have...




zatznotfunny.com


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## JonAult (Jan 19, 2005)

There really isn't any fix for your Roamio - if it uses a cable card it won't work without one, so when Spectrum kills off cable card support your Roamio will be useless (unless you have the base model - I forgot there was one Roamio that supported both cable & OTA). When that will happen to you is unknown.

There's an existing thread on this subject:









Spectrum and cable card


I have a Bolt on cable card using Spectrum (Charter) as my provider. In inquiring about possibly changing packages, I was told that the current plans do not allow for cable card and that it is possible that Spectrum may obsolete cable card in the future. It sounded like more a matter of when...




www.tivocommunity.com


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Wow I usually like Dave Zatz but that headline and story is grossly exaggerated.

Read the TechHive article linked and calm down.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

The only reason I got Tivo was so I could record or download movies


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I saw it as a marketing strong-arm move to scare me off my cablecard sooner than later while retaining my monthly payments. If they want my money they'll continue to keep my cablecard on or else make a much better incentive offer than that.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

jastavoss said:


> The only reason I got Tivo was so I could record or download movies


And you still can. Nothing has changed.


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## CopRock (Jul 13, 2014)

If and when the day this BS move comes, any cable company should offer a dvr cable box for the same price as the cable card setup - yeah, I know that’ll never happen. 
I‘m in Manhattan since the days of Manhattan Cable TV, which became Time Warner Cable and eventually Spectrum and can guarantee you there is no loyalty for long time customers …

I am considering Verizon Fios if Spectrum drops all Cable Cards since I already have an ODN box they had to place in for Landline phone support since copper wiring has been phased out and Fios seems to be more Cable Card friendly, for now… or going OTA and some sort of Streamer/YouTube TV like setup, but not something I’m familiar with


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

CopRock said:


> I am considering Verizon Fios if Spectrum drops all Cable Cards since I already have an ODN box they had to place in for Landline phone support since copper wiring has been phased out and Fios seems to be more Cable Card friendly, for now… or going OTA and some sort of Streamer/YouTube TV like setup, but not something I’m familiar with


Switch to Fios like yesterday. It’s FAR superior to Spectrum!


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

CopRock said:


> I am considering Verizon Fios if Spectrum drops all Cable Cards since I already have an *ODN box* they had to place in for Landline phone support since copper wiring has been phased out and Fios seems to be more Cable Card friendly, for now… or going OTA and some sort of Streamer/YouTube TV like setup, but not something I’m familiar with


Verizon calls it an ONT, Optical Network Terminal.

EDIT: A little research shows that the ODN are the components including the fiber that goes to the ONT. MAJOR COMPONENTS OF FIBER TO THE HOME (FTTH) -OLT , ODN and ONT


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## CopRock (Jul 13, 2014)

cwoody222 said:


> Switch to Fios like yesterday. It’s FAR superior to Spectrum!


Mind if I ask what the setup is like, does it require a TA? How as the Cable Card setup? Is the coax connected directly to the TiVo only, can a splitter be used to direct connect to the TV as if was a clear QAM signal?


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## charlesjbiller (7 mo ago)

cwoody222 said:


> Wow I usually like Dave Zatz but that headline and story is grossly exaggerated.
> 
> Read the TechHive article linked and calm down.


Interesting. It looks like politics may have gotten involved in 2020 when FTC dismantled rules that required cable companies to support CableCARD.


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## ManeJon (Apr 14, 2018)

Strikes me that this is really a mistake/problem for Spectrum. As we read here and elsewhere when people are forced off their TIVO boxes they will probably drop Spectrum and go to streaming. I would think Spectrum would like to encourage TIVO and its users to continue the service - raise price of cablecard or charge TIVO a fee but keep its customers . But who knows


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

ManeJon said:


> Strikes me that this is really a mistake/problem for Spectrum. As we read here and elsewhere when people are forced off their TIVO boxes they will probably drop Spectrum and go to streaming. I would think Spectrum would like to encourage TIVO and its users to continue the service - raise price of cablecard or charge TIVO a fee but keep its customers . But who knows


Spectrum has said that TiVo using customers are less than 3% of all their subscribers. Not a terrific incentive to keep it going for them.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

charlesjbiller said:


> Interesting. It looks like politics may have gotten involved in 2020 when FTC dismantled rules that required cable companies to support CableCARD.


Sort of. 

The cableco lobbyists convinced the FTC and FCC that streaming services had become so widespread and easily available that there isn't a section of the U.S. where cablecos could any longer be considered a monopoly. The monopoly aspect was what allowed TiVo's lobbyists to originally convince the FTC/FCC that there had to be a system in place to allow non cableco owned equipment to connect to their encrypted service, and the cable card was born. 

The new ruling means they no longer have to allow outside hardware to connect to their encrypted feed. They also pointed out that cable card customers who used things like TiVos were less than 3% of their clients.

In the end, it could take years for the transition. I'm kinda grateful that the end of cable cards was not announced with a 30 day end of life warning. Gives people time to consider their alternatives. I love my TiVo setup, have had one for about 20 years now, but will not be sad to no longer have to deal with the Tuning Adapter insanity, the constant source of irritation that it is.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

cwoody222 said:


> Switch to Fios like yesterday. It’s FAR superior to Spectrum!


You talk like it's available nationwide everywhere. It is not. 

I live in a major American city, in an upscale neighborhood, less than three miles from the heart of a famous district, and the projected fiber rollout in this area is the 12th of Never.

If Spectrum shuts down cable cards, my current 200/10 service is more than good enough to accommodate streaming 4K on several sets simultaneously.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

dougdingle said:


> You talk like it's available nationwide everywhere. It is not.
> 
> I live in a major American city, in an upscale neighborhood, less than three miles from the heart of a famous district, and the projected fiber rollout in this area is the 12th of Never.
> 
> If Spectrum shuts down cable cards, my current 200/10 service is more than good enough to accommodate streaming 4K on several sets simultaneously.


I was replying to the poster who said they were considering switching to Fios.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

cwoody222 said:


> I was replying to the poster who said they were considering switching to Fios.


Gotcha.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

CopRock said:


> Mind if I ask what the setup is like, does it require a TA? How as the Cable Card setup? Is the coax connected directly to the TiVo only, can a splitter be used to direct connect to the TV as if was a clear QAM signal?


Note: I have Verizon Fios which may be different than Frontier.

No TA is needed. CableCard setup is very simple, they have a self-service online tool. I think in 5 years I've had to chat with customer service once or twice with a minor issue (needed to re-hit the card).

I do not know if the coax can feed your TV. I just connect my coax to my TiVo.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

CopRock said:


> Mind if I ask what the setup is like, does it require a TA? How as the Cable Card setup? Is the coax connected directly to the TiVo only, can a splitter be used to direct connect to the TV as if was a clear QAM signal?


The signal is encrypted as all digital cable signals are. The TV would see nothing.

MANY years ago, I had a JVC DiLA HD set that had a cable card slot. I got one from Spectrum, and it worked great. Those were early days (like about 18 years ago).


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## charlesjbiller (7 mo ago)

cwoody222 said:


> Note: I have Verizon Fios which may be different than Frontier.
> 
> No TA is needed. CableCard setup is very simple, they have a self-service online tool. I think in 5 years I've had to chat with customer service once or twice with a minor issue (needed to re-hit the card).
> 
> I do not know if the coax can feed your TV. I just connect my coax to my TiVo.


Are you using an existing card?


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

charlesjbiller said:


> Are you using an existing card?


Yes, Fios requires a CC. $5/mo. Very easy setup.


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## charlesjbiller (7 mo ago)

cwoody222 said:


> Yes, Fios requires a CC. $5/mo. Very easy setup.


Thanks, at least, hopefully, they will have that service for now. Too bad it is not here where I am. AT&T is around the peninsula with fiber, not my location but may get their fiber if it get here.
I wonder if their system is compatible or similar as you Fios fiber.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

charlesjbiller said:


> Thanks, at least, hopefully, they will have that service for now. Too bad it is not here where I am. AT&T is around the peninsula with fiber, not my location but may get their fiber if it get here.
> I wonder if their system is compatible or similar as you Fios fiber.


AT&T fiber does not work with TiVo.


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## charlesjbiller (7 mo ago)

cwoody222 said:


> AT&T fiber does not work with TiVo.


Oh, sh... there goes my long-range planning. I hate to have comcast recording my programs with commercials, not to mention my Edge being brand new.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

Well, as soon as I get the email I'll be using it to tell the spousal unit that we're dropping our $200/month triple-play.

I've been testing T-Mobile's Home Internet...it's faster & cheaper ($50/month, no fees/taxes for broadband in my state)

Will setup the Ooma Telo Air I just got & forward my Spectrum VOIP number to it to test Ooma, then port out to Ooma if it works OK...will be under $20/month for Ooma Premier service, including all fees/taxes.

I've got a nice amplified antenna to install outside for my base Roamio...just re-run Guided Setup for OTA.

Any cable shows I want I can just sign up & use their streaming app for a month or two.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

ncbill said:


> Well, as soon as I get the email I'll be using it to tell the spousal unit that we're dropping our $200/month triple-play.
> 
> I've been testing T-Mobile's Home Internet...it's faster & cheaper ($50/month, no fees/taxes for broadband in my state)
> 
> ...


TiVo owners are less than 3% of Spectrum's clients. I just don't see them shaking in their boots over losing some of them. I bet more than a few will opt for the "One year of FREE! cablebox service for people using cable cards before they stopped working!"

I'll be sad to lose TiVo after 20 years, but things change.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

dougdingle said:


> TiVo owners are less than 3% of Spectrum's clients. I just don't see them shaking in their boots over losing some of them. I bet more than a few will opt for the "One year of FREE! cablebox service for people using cable cards before they stopped working!"
> 
> I'll be sad to lose TiVo after 20 years, but things change.


I thought it was closer to 1%.

In any case I view this as a great thing since I've been wanting to drop my expensive cable bundle for some time now.

And this is the perfect excuse for me to do so.


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## spepin (Apr 12, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> Switch to Fios like yesterday. It’s FAR superior to Spectrum!


Unfortunately, fiber is not an option for all users.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

spepin said:


> Unfortunately, fiber is not an option for all users.


Again, I was replying to a person that said they were considering it, meaning it was available in their area.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

Without Tivo, how do you record or download?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

jastavoss said:


> Without Tivo, how do you record or download?


Record with cloud DVR on streaming service like YouTube TV. Download with streaming service offline recorder like Channels. Personally I have no need to ever download, so cloud DVR is enough for me. Of course cable company DVR does the same.


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## charlesjbiller (7 mo ago)

jastavoss said:


> Without Tivo, how do you record or download?


If you have Comcast, there is an option on their home page by opening that monitor image next to mail. You have 4 options next to Xfinitystream. Explore those, not easy.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

mdavej said:


> Record with cloud DVR on streaming service like YouTube TV. Download with streaming service offline recorder like Channels. Personally I have no need to ever download, so cloud DVR is enough for me. Of course cable company DVR does the same.


Any way to edit and save clips to a pc?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

jastavoss said:


> Any way to edit and save clips to a pc?


No idea. Research “Channels” app.


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## zenithblackdial (7 mo ago)

Hello group,

This is my first time visiting your forum which I found doing a search for Spectrum's cable card news. I was having an issue today with my TiVo Bolt missing a few channels and called Spectrum tech support. The rep said, "you do know we are discontinuing cable cards? We sent out email notices." I told the rep I have not received an email. After rattling off a list of cities, she notified me that my market is not yet on the list for discontinuation. I am in the Tampa Bay area.

I currently have a master TiVo Bolt unit and 6 Mini/Lux units around the house. If the cable card and tuning adapter are eliminated, that really jams me up. I will have to re-imagine my entire house. I love TiVo's intuitive software, which I've used for over 20 years. I have despised other DVRs I've tried (eg. Spectrum in a temp corporate NYC apartment).

What are my options if I get the cancellation here in Florida. I currently record four news channels daily for my occupation. What about getting TV to all my other TVs in the house without having cable boxes everywhere? I hope there is a viable solution. This clearly torpedoes a large segment of TiVo's business model and leaves me with a pile of obsolete gear.

ZBD


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

I just had a nice "chat" with Tivo Support, and things don't seem as bad as I thought.


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## John Harkins (Jul 5, 2020)

ncbill said:


> Well, as soon as I get the email I'll be using it to tell the spousal unit that we're dropping our $200/month triple-play.
> 
> I've been testing T-Mobile's Home Internet...it's faster & cheaper ($50/month, no fees/taxes for broadband in my state)
> 
> ...


I have a TiVo on Spectrum in NC. They stopped offering cable cards for new customers shortly after the legislation changed a year ago. They currently still support existing cable card customers but I anticipate that is going to change shortly (I have not received an email alerting me to a change). I prefer TiVo to streaming and generic DVRs offered by cable companies (TiVo is far superior) and will be sad when they drop support. I complained to the FCC but got nowhere with them.

So I will do likewise - as soon as Spectrum drops support for my TiVo, I will be changing providers and will not be sad to be rid of Spectrum. I have a few streaming packages now (not great for sports) but I will also mount an antenna and use my TiVo for OTA reception. The good news is that I will be able to upgrade to vastly superior fiber internet when we are booted from Spectrum (that fiber service lacks a cable TV offering though - TiVo is the only reason we haven't switched already).


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

The only thing I care about is the ability to record, and download to a pc. Have no interest in streaming.


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## Mary D (Jul 22, 2020)

John Harkins said:


> I have a TiVo on Spectrum in NC. They stopped offering cable cards for new customers shortly after the legislation changed a year ago. They currently still support existing cable card customers but I anticipate that is going to change shortly (I have not received an email alerting me to a change). I prefer TiVo to streaming and generic DVRs offered by cable companies (TiVo is far superior) and will be sad when they drop support. I complained to the FCC but got nowhere with them.
> 
> So I will do likewise - as soon as Spectrum drops support for my TiVo, I will be changing providers and will not be sad to be rid of Spectrum. I have a few streaming packages now (not great for sports) but I will also mount an antenna and use my TiVo for OTA reception. The good news is that I will be able to upgrade to vastly superior fiber internet when we are booted from Spectrum (that fiber service lacks a cable TV offering though - TiVo is the only reason we haven't switched already).


I'm in NC on Sectrum as well. I have had a 3tb 6 tuner for +6 years, had trouble with it 3 yrs ago and Tivo replaced it, no charge yes refurb but works! I just checked my One Pass Mgr and have 135 currently scheduled to record shows..yes I'm a tv-a-holic 😁
I have returned competitor's junk dvrs even before the free promo was over. It's not Tivo! 

But it's a pain to keep resetting the Tuning Adapters monthly as it disconnects 😑 and the CableCard overheats, so had to set up a small pc fan to keep the already raised Tivo cool. 

With their cable and internet rates rising, one box with 3 cc still costing me @200/month, good time to say goodbye too after 19yrs!
So long Weaknees.. unless they have ota boxes 🤔😄

3 Tivo Bolts +5 years old and a Premiere that's 10


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

dougdingle said:


> Spectrum has said that TiVo using customers are less than 3% of all their subscribers. Not a terrific incentive to keep it going for them.


It is far less than that. While none of the operators have had to report their numbers for a few years now, the numbers were in the fraction of a percent. And they likely have gone down. The loss of TV subscribers itself is closer to 4-5%/year, and monthly churn (while lower in 2021) is 2-3% per month (every month). In other words, the number of CableCARD customers is sufficiently small such that if they are in the way of projects that Charter considers growth areas (i.e. HSI) there is clearly no way Charter is going to stop progress for the less than 1%.


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## John Harkins (Jul 5, 2020)

Mary D said:


> I'm in NC on Sectrum as well. I have had a 3tb 6 tuner for +6 years, had trouble with it 3 yrs ago and Tivo replaced it, no charge yes refurb but works! I just checked my One Pass Mgr and have 135 currently scheduled to record shows..yes I'm a tv-a-holic 😁
> I have returned competitor's junk dvrs even before the free promo was over. It's not Tivo!
> 
> But it's a pain to keep resetting the Tuning Adapters monthly as it disconnects 😑 and the CableCard overheats, so had to set up a small pc fan to keep the already raised Tivo cool.
> ...


You should be able to re-provision the bolts for OTA use. Yeah, I have to reset the dumb tuning adapters periodically and I also have an external fan for my Bolt so sounds familiar. The most annoying thing for me though is how NC runs those Emergency Alert System tests so often that mess up the tuners on the TiVo. That is really annoying.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

CopRock said:


> I am considering Verizon Fios if Spectrum drops all Cable Cards


Be aware that while there are older ONT's previously installed, Verizon is now primarily installing new generation ONTs (using NG-PON2) which do not support linear QAM (there is not even an RF out port). Verizon has made no secret of their eventual goal of getting of TV service (their CSRs will sell FiOS TV for customers not on the new generation of ONT's, but they first suggest OTT providers such as YTTV), as their primary focus is on HSI.

As with many other operators, the writing is on the wall, if you know how to read it. Of course, just like the sign being held on the street saying "The End is Near", no one has yet defined the exact timeframe of near.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

CopRock said:


> If and when the day this BS move comes, any cable company should offer a dvr cable box for the same price as the cable card setup


They sort of do. You can use their app on an Apple TV (or Roku), and Charter will even sell you an Apple TV over a few months. And they offer a cloud DVR solution (which all their next gen solutions will use; there will no longer be local storage).

The future is streaming/on-demand content delivery. There are 5 stages of grief, and no doubt different people are in different stages.


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## charlesjbiller (7 mo ago)

John Harkins said:


> ....
> , I will be changing providers and will not be sad to be rid of Spectrum....


While I don't have Spectrum, I don't have an alternative to Comcast if and when they get rid of support for the card.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

zenithblackdial said:


> Hello group,
> 
> This is my first time visiting your forum which I found doing a search for Spectrum's cable card news. I was having an issue today with my TiVo Bolt missing a few channels and called Spectrum tech support. The rep said, "you do know we are discontinuing cable cards? We sent out email notices." I told the rep I have not received an email. After rattling off a list of cities, she notified me that my market is not yet on the list for discontinuation. I am in the Tampa Bay area.
> 
> ...


Probably DirecTV Streaming. It has a cloud DVR and unlimited clients on the same LAN. Other cloud DVRs are limited to just a couple of simultaneous streams, nowhere near the 7 you would need. Unless of course you never watch all 7 at the same time, more like 3, which Youtube TV could handle. All cloud DVR services can record an unlimited number of simultaneous programs. The upside of a streaming solution is you can watch your recordings anywhere in the country on any streaming device, phone, tablet or laptop.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

I had talked about this in another thread here and where I ended up was with a guy in the cablecard support department at Spectrum who told me that, while they won't be cutting off service, they won't be going further with them. He said there is absolutely no reason that my service would stop, as far as the two cards I have. He even looked it up to verify what he was telling me.

It just sounded like some of the stuff they are doing, progress-wise, has nothing to do with cable cards. There's a possibility, since he said that the only cable cards they are issuing now are refurbed, that there could come a time that there are no more cable cards and one would need to consider going with their option.

It's kind of like when you have older electronic equipment that still works fine, but if you need to replace it you would have to replace it with something else.


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## capilot (Jan 9, 2022)

CopRock said:


> If and when the day this BS move comes, any cable company should offer a dvr cable box for the same price as the cable card setup - yeah, I know that’ll never happen.
> I‘m in Manhattan since the days of Manhattan Cable TV, which became Time Warner Cable and eventually Spectrum and can guarantee you there is no loyalty for long time customers …
> 
> I am considering Verizon Fios if Spectrum drops all Cable Cards since I already have an ODN box they had to place in for Landline phone support since copper wiring has been phased out and Fios seems to be more Cable Card friendly, for now… or going OTA and some sort of Streamer/YouTube TV like setup, but not something I’m familiar with



I got sick and tired of the cable and satellite companies constant price increases, and/or dropping channels, so I got a TiVo Bolt in January, and couldn't be happier "cutting the cord". Living in the Los Angeles area I get over 100 English speaking stations, with superb quality. There was only one program I was paying them for that I could not get for FREE over the air. I now pay NBC - Peacock just $5.00 a month to stream anything they have, and save hundreds that I was paying for cable, then for Dish.

I for one, DO NOT want to go back to having a cable or satellite provider, or needing a cable card to watch and record programs. TiVO, for me, has been amazing. I just wish I had made the switch years ago.

If the cable & satellite companies think they can get rid of cable cards, and keep customers, they are getting paid too much to think in old concept ways. They NEED us, we DON'T NEED them ANYMORE, thanks to Digital, FREE, Over the Air broadcasts and streaming services, and devices like TiVo.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

If streaming is so great, how do you edit?


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## capilot (Jan 9, 2022)

jastavoss said:


> If streaming is so great, how do you edit?


I don't have a need or desire to edit, either broadcasts or streams. Never have! Personal or downloaded videos that I want to edit, I use Wondershare Video Converter Ultimate. It allows me to cut, resize, adjust sound & color settings, convert formats such as from WMA to MP4, and crop videos.


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## My Cape is a Recliner (Oct 5, 2019)

Stop telling people to get Fios. These are the only places Fios is available. (The major cities, in a handful of states in the NE). Don't expect this anywhere else any time soon.
Verizon Fios Availability & Coverage Map for Internet, TV, Phone Service










That really just looks like sponsored content in that original link to me. "The overpriced cable card", that I'm paying $1 a month for? If spectrum stops supporting this, I'm not going to a different tivo, I'm going to streaming TV, with all time 4K, and unlimited cloud DVR, and certainly wouldn't be spectrum. If I thought I could get a good return on my bolt with lifetime, I'd probably sell it now.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

My Cape is a Recliner said:


> Stop telling people to get Fios. These are the only places Fios is available. (The major cities, in a handful of states in the NE). Don't expect this anywhere else any time soon.
> Verizon Fios Availability & Coverage Map for Internet, TV, Phone Service
> 
> View attachment 73110
> ...


I'm sorry, but IF.. and I say IF someone has FiOS available, then it is a far superior product option, there's also the Frontier FiOS communities, and I don't blame people for suggesting it.


> Frontier also acquired the fiber-optic system built by Verizon primarily in Fort Wayne, Indiana, around Portland, Oregon, the Tampa Bay area of Florida, southern California, some eastern suburbs of Seattle, Washington, the Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex, and the Greenville area in South Carolina


So that list is missing a bunch of locations, however while the service itself is just as good as when Verizon owned those regions, the TV and Customer support from Frontier is really pretty bad.
It's a shame that FiOS was never able to expand to be a major player, but the slow rollout really hurt them and they just gave up when it was obvious how far ahead the CableCo's were and how much less it cost them to deploy to a home.


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## My Cape is a Recliner (Oct 5, 2019)

dianebrat said:


> I'm sorry, but IF.. and I say IF someone has FiOS available, then it is a far superior product option, there's also the Frontier FiOS communities, and I don't blame people for suggesting it.
> 
> So that list is missing a bunch of locations, however while the service itself is just as good as when Verizon owned those regions, the TV and Customer support from Frontier is really pretty bad.
> It's a shame that FiOS was never able to expand to be a major player, but the slow rollout really hurt them and they just gave up when it was obvious how far ahead the CableCo's were and how much less it cost them to deploy to a home.


There are about 20 cities where Frontier provides any kind of service, and not all of them offer fiber optic. 

You are also muddying up the answer. FiOS is the name of Verizon's service which is what was suggested, and you are saying FiOS, (FIber Optic Service).

I do blame people for continuously suggesting it, HERE. This is the "tivo community" website. Right off the bat we take a bit more involvement in our media than most. Suggesting it here (SEVERAL TIMES), is like going to the Chevy dealership, while they are having a meet event with sports car drivers and saying, "Have you heard of the Corvette?, Have you seen that car over there, that's the corvette? You could buy that car if you want a sports car, it's called a Corvette." 

Do you really think people spend the effort to search, sign up for a website, and post about their tv equipment, but never bothered to see which tv service options they have for their home in the first place? It's like going to a brunch restaurant, and asking to speak to the chef so you can ask "do you make eggs?" 

I see it suggested a lot on this website which in itself is unneeded. Doing it multiple times in one thread is unaware and kind of ridiculous. It's almost condescending, and talking down to people.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

My Cape is a Recliner said:


> There are about 20 cities where Frontier provides any kind of service, and not all of them offer fiber optic.
> 
> You are also muddying up the answer. FiOS is the name of Verizon's service which is what was suggested, and you are saying FiOS, (FIber Optic Service).
> 
> ...


In this particular thread, Fios was suggested to ONE USER (here, and I've edited the post to make it clear it was a reply) who said he was already considering it.

Every other mention was either answering a direct question or someone complaining that Fios was being discussed.

And do I think people on this website may not know what options they have in their area? Absolutely. I see people on this website who don't know how to use the Input button on their TV or know how to navigate to the most basic of TiVo functions (even though they say they've used TiVo for years) so I'd say there's a wide range of expertise on this website.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

dianebrat said:


> I'm sorry, but IF.. and I say IF someone has FiOS available, then it is a far superior product option, there's also the Frontier FiOS communities, and I don't blame people for suggesting it.
> 
> So that list is missing a bunch of locations, however while the service itself is just as good as when Verizon owned those regions, the TV and Customer support from Frontier is really pretty bad.


For folks who live in a Verizon FiOS area and their home _already_ has a FiOS optical network terminal (ONT) installed, then yes, Verizon FiOS TV is a great option for folks who wish to continue using their CableCARD TiVo DVRs with cable TV service. As pointed out above, Verizon is using a new 2 gig-capable ONT for new installations in NYC and, if not already, very soon throughout the rest of their FiOS footprint, and this new ONT does not support CableCARD as it can only translate the incoming QAM-based FiOS TV service to IPTV on the local home network. (They say that FiOS TV is "coming soon" for customers with the new ONT. We'll see if that ever actually happens or they decide against it and just try to sell those folks YouTube TV or Hulu Live, as they already do on the Verizon 5G Home service which I'm currently trialling.)

As for Frontier, from what I can gather, they no longer sell any form of Frontier-branded TV service to new subscribers anywhere in the country. I'm not aware of them yet _shutting down_ either Frontier FiOS TV or Frontier Vantage TV (formerly AT&T Uverse TV) in any markets, although that _may_ already be underway. But if you don't already have Frontier FiOS TV, I think it's impossible to order at this point, as Frontier only wants to sell you broadband plus streaming video services like YouTube TV or DirecTV Stream (both of which are offered on the Frontier website). I'm sure it's only a matter of time before Frontier does the same thing that another telco, CenturyLink (Lumen) did in 2020-21, and completely shut down operations of their own pay TV services.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

sharkster said:


> I had talked about this in another thread here and where I ended up was with a guy in the cablecard support department at Spectrum who told me that, while they won't be cutting off service, they won't be going further with them. He said there is absolutely no reason that my service would stop, as far as the two cards I have. He even looked it up to verify what he was telling me.
> 
> It just sounded like some of the stuff they are doing, progress-wise, has nothing to do with cable cards. There's a possibility, since he said that the only cable cards they are issuing now are refurbed, that there could come a time that there are no more cable cards and one would need to consider going with their option.
> 
> It's kind of like when you have older electronic equipment that still works fine, but if you need to replace it you would have to replace it with something else.


I've posted on this topic in a few other threads here, so I'm not going to put up all the evidence/links again, but it's clear at this point that Charter plans to implement "high-split" upgrades to their network that will allow much higher upload speeds. In order to do this, cable operators typically find it necessary to shut down QAM TV. Charter's CEO stated back in January that they would implement high-split in a number of markets in 2022, with others to follow after. Now, IDK, plans can and do change, so we may not see the first Charter markets have QAM TV shut down and high-split upgrades until late this year, or even early 2023. But it's coming. 

And when it happens to your market, it's bye-bye CableCARD, as that technology can only work with QAM TV, not streaming IPTV (i.e. the Spectrum TV app), which Charter is transitioning to. It will likely take Charter a couple years or so to work their way around the nation to do these upgrades everywhere. So maybe your TiVo will stop working with their cable TV service in 2023. Maybe in 2024. Maybe in 2025. But I'd be shocked if it lasted until 2026. Because the mid-split upgrades are a sort of "hold-over" improvement to DOCSIS 3.1 until the next-gen DOCSIS 4.0 tech is ready to be deployed, which will allow them to offer symmetrical 10 Gbps internet service. And that's looking like it'll be ready for widespread deployment from Charter, Comcast, etc. in 2025, although I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see it happen until 2026.

Comcast is only doing mid-split, rather than high-split, upgrades to D3.1 right now and the next couple years. So it looks like CableCARD will likely continue to work with their cable TV service until they roll out D4.0 in initial markets in 2025/2026. (And if it goes like recent network upgrades have, Comcast will start those 4.0 upgrades in Chicago, Nashville and Atlanta. We'll see.)


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## ManeJon (Apr 14, 2018)

capilot said:


> I got sick and tired of the cable and satellite companies constant price increases, and/or dropping channels, so I got a TiVo Bolt in January, and couldn't be happier "cutting the cord". Living in the Los Angeles area I get over 100 English speaking stations, with superb quality. There was only one program I was paying them for that I could not get for FREE over the air. I now pay NBC - Peacock just $5.00 a month to stream anything they have, and save hundreds that I was paying for cable, then for Dish.
> 
> I for one, DO NOT want to go back to having a cable or satellite provider, or needing a cable card to watch and record programs. TiVO, for me, has been amazing. I just wish I had made the switch years ago.
> 
> If the cable & satellite companies think they can get rid of cable cards, and keep customers, they are getting paid too much to think in old concept ways. They NEED us, we DON'T NEED them ANYMORE, thanks to Digital, FREE, Over the Air broadcasts and streaming services, and devices like TiVo.


Where / how are you getting the 100 channels to your BOLT - over the air?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ManeJon said:


> Where / how are you getting the 100 channels to your BOLT - over the air?


Yeah, he says in his post that he's getting those channels free over-the-air. Be aware that within each generation of TiVo DVR (Roamio, Bolt, Edge, etc.), only certain models support OTA reception. Some models support both CableCARD _and_ OTA while some models only support one or the other.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> For folks who live in a Verizon FiOS area and their home _already_ has a FiOS optical network terminal (ONT) installed, then yes, Verizon FiOS TV is a great option for folks who wish to continue using their CableCARD TiVo DVRs with cable TV service. As pointed out above, Verizon is using a new 2 gig-capable ONT for new installations in NYC and, if not already, very soon throughout the rest of their FiOS footprint, and this new ONT does not support CableCARD as it can only translate the incoming QAM-based FiOS TV service to IPTV on the local home network. (They say that FiOS TV is "coming soon" for customers with the new ONT. We'll see if that ever actually happens or they decide against it and just try to sell those folks YouTube TV or Hulu Live, as they already do on the Verizon 5G Home service which I'm currently trialling.)
> 
> As for Frontier, from what I can gather, they no longer sell any form of Frontier-branded TV service to new subscribers anywhere in the country. I'm not aware of them yet _shutting down_ either Frontier FiOS TV or Frontier Vantage TV (formerly AT&T Uverse TV) in any markets, although that _may_ already be underway. But if you don't already have Frontier FiOS TV, I think it's impossible to order at this point, as Frontier only wants to sell you broadband plus streaming video services like YouTube TV or DirecTV Stream (both of which are offered on the Frontier website). I'm sure it's only a matter of time before Frontier does the same thing that another telco, CenturyLink (Lumen) did in 2020-21, and completely shut down operations of their own pay TV services.


Frontier did indeed lose the permission to call their service FiOS, but it's still the same technology as Verizon.
However I will continue to espouse the benefits of FiOS as an option for anyone who has it available to them, and I certainly believe there are people here that may not have bothered thinking about FiOS and a push from a few very satisfied users may help push them towards it, because it still beats the pants off Comcast as far as I'm concerned.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

dianebrat said:


> because it still beats the pants off Comcast as far as I'm concerned.


And Spectrum.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

Fiber is nice if you can get it.

AT&T buried new conduit then pulled fiber on the main road outside my development almost FIVE years ago and they still haven't deigned to run it down into our neighborhood.

Ironically, I'm connected to the internet via fiber right now at our cabin up in the mountains...the local telephone membership co-op is targeting replacing all their copper plant with fiber by the end of this month.

Just had that install done today (only had phone service prior) and when it was finished the tech physically removed the aerial (copper) cable...fiber is in underground conduit.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> ……. it still beats the pants off Comcast as far as I'm concerned.


Comcast and Spectrum need to be de-pants ‘ed. (Sorry couldn’t resist but cable TV has been a license to steal for decades. It was all legal of course.)


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## ITGrouch (Jan 7, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> For folks who live in a Verizon FiOS area and their home _already_ has a FiOS optical network terminal (ONT) installed, then yes, Verizon FiOS TV is a great option for folks who wish to continue using their CableCARD TiVo DVRs with cable TV service. As pointed out above, Verizon is using a new 2 gig-capable ONT for new installations in NYC and, if not already, very soon throughout the rest of their FiOS footprint, and this new ONT does not support CableCARD as it can only translate the incoming QAM-based FiOS TV service to IPTV on the local home network. (They say that FiOS TV is "coming soon" for customers with the new ONT. We'll see if that ever actually happens or they decide against it and just try to sell those folks YouTube TV or Hulu Live, as they already do on the Verizon 5G Home service which I'm currently trialling.)
> 
> As for Frontier, from what I can gather, they no longer sell any form of Frontier-branded TV service to new subscribers anywhere in the country. I'm not aware of them yet _shutting down_ either Frontier FiOS TV or Frontier Vantage TV (formerly AT&T Uverse TV) in any markets, although that _may_ already be underway. But if you don't already have Frontier FiOS TV, I think it's impossible to order at this point, as Frontier only wants to sell you broadband plus streaming video services like YouTube TV or DirecTV Stream (both of which are offered on the Frontier website). I'm sure it's only a matter of time before Frontier does the same thing that another telco, CenturyLink (Lumen) did in 2020-21, and completely shut down operations of their own pay TV services.


QA


NashGuy said:


> I've posted on this topic in a few other threads here, so I'm not going to put up all the evidence/links again, but it's clear at this point that Charter plans to implement "high-split" upgrades to their network that will allow much higher upload speeds. In order to do this, cable operators typically find it necessary to shut down QAM TV. Charter's CEO stated back in January that they would implement high-split in a number of markets in 2022, with others to follow after. Now, IDK, plans can and do change, so we may not see the first Charter markets have QAM TV shut down and high-split upgrades until late this year, or even early 2023. But it's coming.
> 
> And when it happens to your market, it's bye-bye CableCARD, as that technology can only work with QAM TV, not streaming IPTV (i.e. the Spectrum TV app), which Charter is transitioning to. It will likely take Charter a couple years or so to work their way around the nation to do these upgrades everywhere. So maybe your TiVo will stop working with their cable TV service in 2023. Maybe in 2024. Maybe in 2025. But I'd be shocked if it lasted until 2026. Because the mid-split upgrades are a sort of "hold-over" improvement to DOCSIS 3.1 until the next-gen DOCSIS 4.0 tech is ready to be deployed, which will allow them to offer symmetrical 10 Gbps internet service. And that's looking like it'll be ready for widespread deployment from Charter, Comcast, etc. in 2025, although I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see it happen until 2026.
> 
> Comcast is only doing mid-split, rather than high-split, upgrades to D3.1 right now and the next couple years. So it looks like CableCARD will likely continue to work with their cable TV service until they roll out D4.0 in initial markets in 2025/2026. (And if it goes like recent network upgrades have, Comcast will start those 4.0 upgrades in Chicago, Nashville and Atlanta. We'll see.)


People that are in denial that QAM isn't going away need to wake up. The retail sales of the cable version of TiVo devices are withering on the vine.


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## symbiat (Jun 28, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> Switch to Fios like yesterday. It’s FAR superior to Spectrum!


I live right in the center of Manhattan and thought I would see if anything has changed in the 10 years since I last looked... nope, FIOS is still not available in my neighborhood. This is what happens when you have very few providers even if they're given massive tax breaks to build out fiber...


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## ManeJon (Apr 14, 2018)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, he says in his post that he's getting those channels free over-the-air. Be aware that within each generation of TiVo DVR (Roamio, Bolt, Edge, etc.), only certain models support OTA reception. Some models support both CableCARD _and_ OTA while some models only support one or the other.


Didn't think there would be anyplace that had 100 channels over the airl


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

ManeJon said:


> Didn't think there would be anyplace that had 100 channels over the airl


But maybe 20 tops has watchable content. And half of them just show retro/classic programs.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_over-the-air_television_networks


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

cwoody222 said:


> But maybe 20 tops has watchable content. And half of them just show retro/classic programs.
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_over-the-air_television_networks


I bought a lifetime Plex Pass to use their OTA DVR service and I don't regret it but, to be honest, there's just less and less worth recording and watching on _any_ broadcast channel, IMO. I'm down to like one scripted series on ABC and one on Fox (both of which I could watch with better PQ on Hulu if I subscribed to it). Main thing I like it for is to record the evening national newscasts from CBS and NBC because I'm, uh, "of a certain age".

I continue to believe that the long-term future of the national broadcast networks is to merge into those companies' free ad-supported apps, i.e. CBS will eventually stream live and on-demand on PlutoTV, Fox on Tubi TV, etc. Well, except for the live sports. That's high-value content that will, for the most part, be reserved for their pay apps. I look for this transition to happen by 2030. No need to bother with ATSC 3.0 because the networks will do an end-run around their local affiliates by taking all their content into their own free and paid streaming apps.


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## Scott K (Dec 9, 2018)

CommunityMember said:


> Be aware that while there are older ONT's previously installed, Verizon is now primarily installing new generation ONTs (using NG-PON2) which do not support linear QAM (there is not even an RF out port). Verizon has made no secret of their eventual goal of getting of TV service (their CSRs will sell FiOS TV for customers not on the new generation of ONT's, but they first suggest OTT providers such as YTTV), as their primary focus is on HSI.
> 
> As with many other operators, the writing is on the wall, if you know how to read it. Of course, just like the sign being held on the street saying "The End is Near", no one has yet defined the exact timeframe of near.


If you could use a few more acronyms, it would certainly clarify things! Frankly it's a PITA trying to understand WTF you are talking about. JW, is it really so difficult type the whole word? SINTT, your device does most of the work, and in most cases you're only saving one or two characters.


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## symbiat (Jun 28, 2005)

Talked to Spectrum last night (specifically cable card tech support) who told me about what their future plans phasing out CableCards.

So now Im trying to figure out how to prepare for switching to what comes next. Im of the opinion I don't want any new boxes from Spectrum so now Im looking for a service that gives me some of the networks I regularly watch plus some premium channels I currently have. It would be nice if I could use a TiVO box to search and consume that service. Would it make sense to get Edge for Cable and switch to use it as a purely streaming device when the time comes? Would things like YouTube TV work with TiVO in some way? Much as I dislike streaming services in general, it looks like this is the way things are going. What about PlutoTV or Plex TV ? Does it make sense to look at Spectrum's AppleTV offering ? So many questions...


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

symbiat said:


> Talked to Spectrum last night (specifically cable card tech support) who told me about what their future plans phasing out CableCards.
> 
> So now Im trying to figure out how to prepare for switching to what comes next. Im of the opinion I don't want any new boxes from Spectrum so now Im looking for a service that gives me some of the networks I regularly watch plus some premium channels I currently have. It would be nice if I could use a TiVO box to search and consume that service. Would it make sense to get Edge for Cable and switch to use it as a purely streaming device when the time comes? Would things like YouTube TV work with TiVO in some way? Much as I dislike streaming services in general, it looks like this is the way things are going. What about PlutoTV or Plex TV ? Does it make sense to look at Spectrum's AppleTV offering ? So many questions...


Well, what did they say?
(not that I usually believe a thing any CSR say. In most cases they are the last to know future plans and especially details of those plans)

Tivo Edge - or any TIVO DVR - does not work with YouTube TV or Plex TV. There’s a Pluto app for TiVo DVRs and it’s fairly horrible.

Tivo DVRs work with cable card and antennas and a very limited set of streaming services (None of which are LIVE streaming services)


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

symbiat said:


> Talked to Spectrum last night (specifically cable card tech support) who told me about what their future plans phasing out CableCards.
> 
> So now Im trying to figure out how to prepare for switching to what comes next. Im of the opinion I don't want any new boxes from Spectrum so now Im looking for a service that gives me some of the networks I regularly watch plus some premium channels I currently have. It would be nice if I could use a TiVO box to search and consume that service. Would it make sense to get Edge for Cable and switch to use it as a purely streaming device when the time comes? Would things like YouTube TV work with TiVO in some way? Much as I dislike streaming services in general, it looks like this is the way things are going. What about PlutoTV or Plex TV ? Does it make sense to look at Spectrum's AppleTV offering ? So many questions...


What you want is a streaming cable TV service. That might be from Charter -- they offer it via the Spectrum TV app -- or it might be YouTube TV, DirecTV Stream, Hulu with Live TV, Fubo TV, Sling, Philo, or FrndlyTV. Be aware that only Spectrum TV, YouTube TV, DirecTV Stream and Hulu with Live TV include major local stations, so you'd probably need to supplement the latter four with an OTA antenna if you went with them. To help you choose between them, try the website linked below. Type in your zip code, then pick the local and national channels that you mainly care about and it will show you your various options and their prices.









Suppose... you could design your perfect TV service


Suppose lets you select your favorite TV channels, searches billions of combinations of cable, satellite and streaming TV services, and finds the best for you.




www.suppose.tv





The next step after that is figuring out what sort of equipment you want to use to run your selected service's app on. Pretty much all those services I listed support Roku, Fire TV, Apple TV, Google/Android TV, and Samsung smart TV. One of them -- DirecTV Stream -- offers their own optional custom streaming box and full-scale voice remote that delivers a very traditional cable-like user experience. (They're not rented but purchased for $120 each new or $50 each refurbished with a 1-yr warranty either way.)

Different services seem to work better on different devices, so it's difficult for me to give you advice on which to go with. I don't know which is more important to you -- a specific service/app or a specific device platform. Pick one and then I can give recommendations on which to choose for the other.

The best overall low-cost solution, IMO, is to pair YouTube TV ($65/mo) with the Onn 4K Android TV box with Google-designed remote from Walmart ($20 each). The remote is nice for YouTube TV since it has TV power and volume, plus channel up/down, and a dedicated live TV button that launches you straight into the YouTube TV app. Actually, you can just click that one button and it should turn on your TV, switch it to the correct HDMI input, and bring up the YouTube TV app on your screen so that you're ready to watch live or recorded cable TV. (That's the way it works on my parents' 2 TVs.) In most markets, YouTube TV carries the local ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox and PBS stations, plus a big variety of national cable channels. About the only noteworthy ones they still lack are the A+E nets (History, A&E, Lifetime, Vice), plus NHL Network, Magnolia, and AXS TV.

YouTube TV's HD picture quality is good, although DirecTV Stream's is definitely the best. YouTube TV is slowly rolling out support for Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound; it's already fully deployed on DirecTV Stream. Both services, as well as Hulu with Live TV, give you unlimited cloud DVR storage but your recordings auto-delete after 9 months so you can't keep them forever. You can record on as many channels simultaneously as you want. Note that Hulu with Live TV automatically includes Disney+ and ESPN+ too (in separate apps) for no extra cost. DirecTV Stream has a user interface that's most like traditional cable while Hulu's is the least like it (so might have a steeper learning curve).

Anyhow, that link I posted above will help you figure out which service has all the channels you care about. Good luck!


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> What you want is a streaming cable TV service. That might be from Charter -- they offer it via the Spectrum TV app -- or it might be YouTube TV, DirecTV Stream, Hulu with Live TV, Fubo TV, Sling, Philo, or FrndlyTV. Be aware that only Spectrum TV, YouTube TV, DirecTV Stream and Hulu with Live TV include major local stations, so you'd probably need to supplement the latter four with an OTA antenna if you went with them. To help you choose between them, try the website linked below. Type in your zip code, then pick the local and national channels that you mainly care about and it will show you your various options and their prices.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a handy site. I wish they had locked to top column designators so I didn't have to constantly scroll back up to see which service I was looking at, but in general well done. Thanks.

I've been looking at YTTV, and notice that the CW network where I get my morning local news is listed as VOD only. That means no live streaming of their content, I assume. Almost no streaming services offer the CW as a live feed, I noticed.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> What you want is a streaming cable TV service. That might be from Charter -- they offer it via the Spectrum TV app -- or it might be YouTube TV, DirecTV Stream, Hulu with Live TV, Fubo TV, Sling, Philo, or FrndlyTV. Be aware that only Spectrum TV, YouTube TV, DirecTV Stream and Hulu with Live TV include major local stations, so you'd probably need to supplement the latter four with an OTA antenna if you went with them. To help you choose between them, try the website linked below. Type in your zip code, then pick the local and national channels that you mainly care about and it will show you your various options and their prices.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


load
Which services allow you to download or record to a pc?


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## symbiat (Jun 28, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> Well, what did they say?


He basically said Spectrum has already started sending out letters to Cablecard customers and our existing equipment will continue to function but no new installs, and replacements will become scarce eventually. They plan to offer deals, one package mentioned was an AppleTV with probably some steep discounts on services for a year or two. I don’t want an AppleTV or be in that ecosystem. Over the years I’ve played with many set top boxes - I currently have a Roku, Google TV (Chromecast) dongles and also a Shield. So maybe I’ll pick what plays well on those boxes. I’m leaning towards YouTube TV because it probably works on all my boxes. But still need to do my homework before I commit to anything. I know one thing, I’ll be paying a lot less than I currently do to Spectrum!


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## symbiat (Jun 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> To help you choose between them, try the website linked below. Type in your zip code, then pick the local and national channels that you mainly care about and it will show you your various options and their prices.


Just also wanted to add, that’s a great site. So far the top recommendation based on my choices is YouTube TV.



NashGuy said:


> The next step after that is figuring out what sort of equipment you want to use to run your selected service's app on. Pretty much all those services I listed support Roku, Fire TV, Apple TV, Google/Android TV, and Samsung smart TV. One of them -- DirecTV Stream -- offers their own optional custom streaming box and full-scale voice remote that delivers a very traditional cable-like user experience. (They're not rented but purchased for $120 each new or $50 each refurbished with a 1-yr warranty either way.)
> 
> Different services seem to work better on different devices, so it's difficult for me to give you advice on which to go with. I don't know which is more important to you -- a specific service/app or a specific device platform. Pick one and then I can give recommendations on which to choose for the other.


So I have most of the boxes you’ve listed including Shield (Android TV). The Google TV and I think the Shield can stream 4K for when I upgrade to 4K later this year.



NashGuy said:


> YouTube TV's HD picture quality is good, although DirecTV Stream's is definitely the best. YouTube TV is slowly rolling out support for Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound; it's already fully deployed on DirecTV Stream. Both services, as well as Hulu with Live TV, give you unlimited cloud DVR storage but your recordings auto-delete after 9 months so you can't keep them forever. You can record on as many channels simultaneously as you want. Note that Hulu with Live TV automatically includes Disney+ and ESPN+ too (in separate apps) for no extra cost. DirecTV Stream has a user interface that's most like traditional cable while Hulu's is the least like it (so might have a steeper learning curve).


That’s an important point that I didn’t think about: I currently have surround sound with a Sonos Soundbar and paired Sonos One speakers for left and right. Good to know. It’s sad to see this is the end for TiVO. My experience goes all the way back to the original Series 2 boxes which allowed me to download and decode the raw video files. Fun times. We will all end up comparing everything to TiVO and shaking our heads.


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## symbiat (Jun 28, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> Tivo Edge - or any TIVO DVR - does not work with YouTube TV or Plex TV. There’s a Pluto app for TiVo DVRs and it’s fairly horrible.


Another thought: what about the TiVO 4K Streamer ? Seems to support YouTube TV and other services but in one interface with a familiar remote 🤔


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

symbiat said:


> Another thought: what about the TiVO 4K Streamer ? Seems to support YouTube TV and other services but in one interface with a familiar remote 🤔


I found the Stream 4K to be nothing special. It’s and AndroidTV streamer with a mini TiVo remote and a single TiVo app that consolidates your streaming shows (just like bookmarks in the DVR UI).

I dislike Android anyway so I found the UI horrible but YMMV.


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## symbiat (Jun 28, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> I dislike Android anyway so I found the UI horrible but YMMV.


To me, the UI looks almost the same to what I currently have on my Roamio.

EDIT: Spoke too soon, its only the same in certain areas (looking at the product pages). The 'channel' list looks the same as Google TV and the Shield too so its familiar.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

I don't care about cost. Can you download, record, and edit? That is why I use Tivo and Spectrum.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

symbiat said:


> To me, the UI looks almost the same to what I currently have on my Roamio.
> 
> EDIT: Spoke too soon, its only the same in certain areas (looking at the product pages). The 'channel' list looks the same as Google TV and the Shield too so its familiar.


Exactly. The TiVo Stream 4K runs Android TV, so its home screen in basically the same as that of your Nvidia Shield TV (which also runs Android TV). The "special sauce" that the TS4K offers is an exclusive "TiVo Stream" app which aggregates content from various underlying services into a somewhat TiVo-like UI with unified watchlist. And also, it has a TiVo-designed Android TV remote control. Some folks like the TiVo Stream app, others would just rather use the Android TV home screen for similar features. I do know that the TiVo Stream app now integrates live and on-demand content from YouTube TV. You can read about that here:









TiVo Bolsters Live, Premium Content Offering with YouTube TV Integration -


TiVo Stream 4K is bringing premium live content to your fingertips with the tap of a button or a voice chord utilizing the all-new YouTube TV integration.




 blog.tivo.com





So, I dunno, if you're a TiVo-lover looking to subscribe to YouTube TV, it might be worth spending $40 on to try out. How good a job their app does in integrating content from other apps, and handing you off to that app for viewing, I'm not sure. Devil is in the details. My hunch is that you're going to find it simpler to just directly launch the YouTube TV app when you want to watch "regular cable TV" and then go to the Android TV home screen when you want to watch anything from other apps like Netflix, HBO Max, Hulu, Apple TV+, etc.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

jastavoss said:


> load
> Which services allow you to download or record to a pc?





jastavoss said:


> I don't care about cost. Can you download, record, and edit? That is why I use Tivo and Spectrum.


You're going to need a two-step solution. First, you'll need to figure out which source or sources you will use to legally obtain your desired TV channels. If you want cable channels, you'll need to choose between a streaming cable TV service such as Spectrum TV, YouTube TV, Hulu with Live TV, DirecTV Stream, Fubo TV, and/or Philo. A subscription to any of these services will give you a way to legally log into almost all of the streaming "TV everywhere" authenticated websites belonging to that service's set of channels. For instance, since YouTube TV includes ESPN, you can use your YouTube TV subscription to log into ESPN.com and live stream the channel there. You'll understand why this is important later, keep reading.

If all you need are your local channels and you can get good OTA antenna reception, I suggest buying an HDHomeRun tuner. Also note that in some areas, with some of the streaming cable TV services I listed above, you will still need to rely on an OTA antenna to pull in some of your local channels, because you may not be able to stream them via their TV everywhere website. For instance, your service may not allow you to log into CBS.com to live stream your local CBS station. And if that's the case, you'll need to rely on an HDHomeRun OTA tuner.

OK, once you've got that all figured out, you're going to want to buy a subscription to Channels DVR for $8/mo or $80/yr. (First month is free to try out.) You'll run their DVR software on a Mac, PC or compatible NAS connected to your home network. You'll run their very nice Channels app on your Apple TV, Android TV or Fire TV device at each TV. The Channels DVR software will take the input from your HDHomeRun OTA tuner (if you have one) plus whatever logins you have from your streaming cable TV service(s) and use those resources to stream live local and basic cable channels to the Channels app at each TV. And of course also allow you to record them. (You won't be able to record, or possibly even watch live, premium cable channels like HBO or Showtime, so I suggest using their own custom apps, e.g. HBO Max, Showtime, etc., where their entire library is available ad-free and on-demand.) From what I understand, some of these streaming "TV everywhere" basic cable channels may not include DD 5.1 surround sound. Some may look better or worse than what you're used to seeing on traditional cable. And a few may not be available at all. You will have to do your own research and experimentation. The support pages at the Channels website (getchannels.com) should be useful to you.

Your Channels DVR recordings will be DRM-free, so you can edit them on your computer as you wish and then share them (but beware of copyright laws). The Channels DVR software features the ability to skip ads, either manually or automatically, with no work on your own part. From what I can gather, I'd say that Channels offer the overall best DVR user experience you can get, second _perhaps_ only to TiVo.

Watch this video to learn more:


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

When considering alternative devices, before making a decision people should try to live through a few AndroidTV app updates to see how remarkably poorly they are written - something basic almost always breaks, whether it's HDR or ATMOS or DolbyDigital 5.1 support or in the case of, say, HBOMAX how the app won't even load, and if does, how often it crashes. Maybe one out of four releases of that app are stable. It was three years, *three years* before the Paramount+ app on AndroidTV had 5.1 channel audio. My AppleTV4K app for that service had it from the beginning.

I own a Sony OLED and the Shield Pro, and they are the second and third AndroidTV based devices I've owned, and the pattern I've described has been going on for several years. Years.

I finally stopped using the Shield and the Sony's internal apps to stream, and settled on the AppleTV 4K (the only piece of Apple gear I own) where the apps exhibit *none *of that nonsense. I now use the Shield strictly as a Plex Server/Client, where it does a great job.

I don't know if the AndroidTV apps issue is the underlying OS, or an incomplete API released to devs, or that the writing of the apps has been delegated to someone's incompetent nephew, and I don't care. People on the AVSFORUMS site have taken to keeping apps that work on their computers and rolling back bad updates by sideloading the older app. 

No matter your opinion, that's *never *a good sign.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

dougdingle said:


> That's a handy site. I wish they had locked to top column designators so I didn't have to constantly scroll back up to see which service I was looking at, but in general well done. Thanks.
> 
> I've been looking at YTTV, and notice that the CW network where I get my morning local news is listed as VOD only. That means no live streaming of their content, I assume. Almost no streaming services offer the CW as a live feed, I noticed.


Glad I gave you a helpful link. And yes, live local CW stations are missing in many markets on both YouTube TV and DirecTV Stream. I know in the latter case that Nexstar, the nation's largest local station owner, has yet to strike a deal to allow DTVS to carry their CW locals. May be the same situation on YTTV. But I also know that Nexstar is currently in the process of buying the CW network itself, so you can bet that Nexstar will suddenly be hot-to-trot to get all their CW affiliated stations carried on every single pay TV service in the nation before long.

On an unrelated note, many observers think that Nexstar will make big changes to the CW's primetime lineup in time. I suspect that by the fall 2023 season, they'll have renamed the network entirely and we'll see it ditch its focus on teens and young adults, who don't watch broadcast TV anyhow. Meanwhile, Warner would rather keep their DC superhero shows on their own HBO Max.

You can check this list to see if your local CW station is Nexstar-owned:








Nexstar Media Group, Inc. | Stations







www.nexstar.tv


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

dougdingle said:


> When considering alternative devices, before making a decision people should try to live through a few AndroidTV app updates to see how remarkably poorly they are written - something basic almost always breaks, whether it's HDR or ATMOS or DolbyDigital 5.1 support or in the case of, say, HBOMAX how the app won't even load, and if does, how often it crashes. Maybe one out of four releases of that app are stable. It was three years, *three years* before the Paramount+ app on AndroidTV had 5.1 channel audio. My AppleTV4K app for that service had it from the beginning.
> 
> I own a Sony OLED and the Shield Pro, and they are the second and third AndroidTV based devices I've owned, and the pattern I've described has been going on for several years. Years.
> 
> ...


I have the latest Apple TV 4K. It's expensive but worth it. There's simply no better TV streaming device, IMO. That said, my parents haven't seen the sort of problems with Android TV that you describe on their little Onn 4K boxes in the past 6 months they've used them regularly. But then they only use a few apps (mainly YTTV) and aren't demanding users. I do agree that some apps devs -- such as HBO Max -- have had a poor track record of updates. Remember when they put out a garbage redesign for their Apple TV app last year? Social media ripped them a new one and they got it fixed in a few days, ha!


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> I have the latest Apple TV 4K. It's expensive but worth it. There's simply no better TV streaming device, IMO. That said, my parents haven't seen the sort of problems with Android TV that you describe on their little Onn 4K boxes in the past 6 months they've used them regularly. But then they only use a few apps (mainly YTTV) and aren't demanding users. I do agree that some apps devs -- such as HBO Max -- have had a poor track record of updates. Remember when they put out a garbage redesign for their Apple TV app last year? Social media ripped them a new one and they got it fixed in a few days, ha!


Wanted to thank you for your excellent detailed easy to understand posts. You clearly take the time to make them very readable and accurate. 

As you know, a good informative post can take hours to compose, and I appreciate the effort.


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## airstreamingypsy (Aug 2, 2009)

My Tivo Roamio's HDMI port went belly up. I have Spectrum cable Internet and TV. With all the rumors of cable cards going away, I went and got a temporary Spectrum box... and signed up for a free trial on Youtube TV. Put YTTV on all my TV Firesticks, and I have to say I'm impressed...... Spectrum has gone up to over 200.00 a month. Will dump Spectrum TV, and go with the less expensive, but better, Youtube. I will miss using Tivo, there is no better interface out there...... I've used it since the mid 90s! I think the fact that I can watch on all my TVs without Minis is the best.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> You're going to need a two-step solution. First, you'll need to figure out which source or sources you will use to legally obtain your desired TV channels. If you want cable channels, you'll need to choose between a streaming cable TV service such as Spectrum TV, YouTube TV, Hulu with Live TV, DirecTV Stream, Fubo TV, and/or Philo. A subscription to any of these services will give you a way to legally log into almost all of the streaming "TV everywhere" authenticated websites belonging to that service's set of channels. For instance, since YouTube TV includes ESPN, you can use your YouTube TV subscription to log into ESPN.com and live stream the channel there. You'll understand why this is important later, keep reading.
> 
> If all you need are your local channels and you can get good OTA antenna reception, I suggest buying an HDHomeRun tuner. Also note that in some areas, with some of the streaming cable TV services I listed above, you will still need to rely on an OTA antenna to pull in some of your local channels, because you may not be able to stream them via their TV everywhere website. For instance, your service may not allow you to log into CBS.com to live stream your local CBS station. And if that's the case, you'll need to rely on an HDHomeRun OTA tuner.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info and video, which I just downloaded.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

jastavoss said:


> Thanks for the info and video, which I just downloaded.
> 
> 
> jastavoss said:
> ...


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

jastavoss said:


> Thanks for the info and video, which I just downloaded.


Can you schedule recordings? Like 24 hours ahead? Also, how easy is it to download movies from TCM?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

jastavoss said:


> Can you schedule recordings? Like 24 hours ahead? Also, how easy is it to download movies from TCM?


You can schedule recordings (either one-time or recurring series recordings) ahead of time in Channels, pretty much the same way you would in TiVo, either through the 14-day program grid guide or via a search for a specific show/movie. (Also note that Channels uses Gracenote as their source for TV listings data. This is a better source than the guide data that TiVo uses, which is more prone to errors. TiVo used to use Gracenote years ago, until they bought its rival data source, Rovi.)

You set up, edit and delete scheduled recordings right from the Channels app on your TV with your remote control -- you don't have to go to the computer running the Channels server software to do those tasks.

As for recording TCM movies with Channels DVR using TCM's TV everywhere stream, yes, you can do that. It looks like a few folks were having trouble accessing that channel's TV everywhere stream, to either watch live or record it, back in Jan. 2021 but a quick update to the Channels software fixed the problem. You can see all that at this link from the Channels support website. It's a good example of how very responsive the Channels developer team is to their customers. It's a small company and their users seem very enthusiastic about how good the company is at supporting them.









Spectrum TCM TVE not working


For the past week I have been unable to play or record Spectrum TCM TVE on my Apple TV, iPhone, iPad or iMac (server). When I go to TCM on Spectrum TVE on the Apple TV (or iDevices) the screen shows “https://turner|ive.akamaized.net/hls/Iiv…” followed by “Connection Lost” When I go to TCM on...




community.getchannels.com


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

dougdingle said:


> Wanted to thank you for your excellent detailed easy to understand posts. You clearly take the time to make them very readable and accurate.
> 
> As you know, a good informative post can take hours to compose, and I appreciate the effort.


Thank you, sir.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> You can schedule recordings (either one-time or recurring series recordings) ahead of time in Channels, pretty much the same way you would in TiVo, either through the 14-day program grid guide or via a search for a specific show/movie. (Also note that Channels uses Gracenote as their source for TV listings data. This is a better source than the guide data that TiVo uses, which is more prone to errors. TiVo used to use Gracenote years ago, until they bought its rival data source, Rovi.)
> 
> You set up, edit and delete scheduled recordings right from the Channels app on your TV with your remote control -- you don't have to go to the computer running the Channels server software to do those tasks.
> 
> ...


Thanks, again. Reminds me of the way Panasonic DVD recorders used to schedule recordings, several years ago.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

jastavoss said:


> Thanks, again. Reminds me of the way Panasonic DVD recorders used to schedule recordings, several years ago.


Also, what type of remote contol is used? The Tivo remote is the best, and they never wear out.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

jastavoss said:


> Also, what type of remote contol is used? The Tivo remote is the best, and they never wear out.


I love the remote, but the newer ones tend to develop keybounce. Nothing like pressing PageDown in the guide and seeing two or three screens of guide shoot by...


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

Is there a NAS that can run Channels rather than dedicate a computer 24/7?


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

ncbill said:


> Is there a NAS that can run Channels rather than dedicate a computer 24/7?


Pretty much anything will work. Even an Nvidia Shield Streamer. Channels — Channels DVR Server


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

jastavoss said:


> Also, what type of remote contol is used? The Tivo remote is the best, and they never wear out.


You'll be using whichever remote comes with the streaming device you have at each TV -- Apple TV, Fire TV, or any of the various Android TV devices (e.g. Onn 4K Box, TiVo Stream 4K, Nvidia Shield TV, etc.). Because you'll be running the Channels app on that streaming device.

If your smart TV happens to run either Android TV or Fire TV as its built-in smart operating system, then you can just use the Channels app right on the TV, using the remote control that came with the smart TV.

IMO, the overall best _low-cost_ streaming device is the Onn 4K Android TV box at Walmart for $20. But if you're not concerned about spending, then the best streaming device of them all is the Apple TV 4K (the current one, with the improved newer-style remote), which regularly costs $170. That said, since you really like the TiVo peanut remote, you might want to check out their little Android TV box, called the TiVo Stream 4K, which regularly costs $40. Its remote is a bit smaller and somewhat differently laid out than a traditional TiVo DVR remote, though. And frankly, even though it costs twice as much, it's not any faster or more powerful than the Onn 4K box, except for the fact that the TiVo Stream 4K supports Dolby Vision HDR while the Onn only supports regular HDR. (And if you don't know the difference between those two, then you probably won't be able to see the difference either. It's not a big deal for most folks.)

Remember that while the Channels app will be installed on a streaming device (or smart TV) at every TV around your house, the Channels server software will be installed on a central computer connected to your home's wifi router. (It would be best if you can connect this computer to the router via an ethernet cable but if they're too far apart for that, a solid, fast wifi connection _might_ be OK.) This computer can run Windows, Mac, or Linux. It can even be a specialized type of storage computer, Network Attached Storage (NAS). For a list of the requirements of what kind of computer can run the Channels server software, see their webpage here:








Channels — Channels DVR Server


Our flexible, standalone DVR server that lets you schedule and watch recordings anywhere.



getchannels.com





The last piece of the puzzle will be an HDHomeRun over-the-air tuner which you will also connect to your wifi router, and it _must_ be connected to it with an ethernet cable). This device will pull in your local free over-the-air stations via a connected antenna (either an indoor or outdoor antenna) and feed them into the Channels software for live and recorded viewing. I don't know how well you can receive over-the-air stations where you live, so this might be a problem. You can buy a new 2-tuner HDHomeRun tuner for $110, although you can find used ones for less on eBay (which is what I did years ago and it's still running fine). Do a search on eBay for "HDHomeRun Connect". You'll see some that have 2 tuners inside and some that have 4 tuners inside, allowing you to watch/record either 2 or 4 different over-the-air channels simultaneously. Here's a 2-tuner Connect that's available right now for $65 including shipping. (BTW, you do not want any of the following: HDHomeRun Prime, HDHomeRun Scribe, HDHomeRun Dual.)


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

dougdingle said:


> I love the remote, but the newer ones tend to develop keybounce. Nothing like pressing PageDown in the guide and seeing two or three screens of guide shoot by...


Ah, but have you tried fast scrolling with a flick of the thumb across the Apple TV's touchpad button? That's pretty nice too.


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## jastavoss (Sep 16, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> You'll be using whichever remote comes with the streaming device you have at each TV -- Apple TV, Fire TV, or any of the various Android TV devices (e.g. Onn 4K Box, TiVo Stream 4K, Nvidia Shield TV, etc.). Because you'll be running the Channels app on that streaming device.
> 
> If your smart TV happens to run either Android TV or Fire TV as its built-in smart operating system, then you can just use the Channels app right on the TV, using the remote control that came with the smart TV.
> 
> ...


Thanks for more great info. I have an LG-32-LM62 TV, but its remote is flimsy. I love my Tivo remote.


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## dougdingle (Jul 4, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> Ah, but have you tried fast scrolling with a flick of the thumb across the Apple TV's touchpad button? That's pretty nice too.


I've tried very hard to like the ATV4K's remotes (I have two each of the 1st and 2nd gen), but it's not my style. I like remotes with buttons that do things, not touchpads so much.

I understand the ATV4K can learn 'other' remotes. I have a TiVo setup here, but I also have one of the older TiVo remotes that had a slide switch to select a 'second' TiVo to control, and I'm going to see if I can find it and teach the ATV4K to respond to it without triggering the TiVo.

In the meantime, CEC works here (frighteningly enough), and once I power on the ATV4K, I tend to use the remote from my Sony a80j to control most of the needed select/play/pause/shuttle functions. I still pick up the Apple remote for the occasional voice command and to scan the timeline, though.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

jastavoss said:


> Thanks for more great info. I have an LG-32-LM62 TV, but its remote is flimsy. I love my Tivo remote.


OK, you're not going to be able to run the Channels app directly on that TV. You will need to connect any of the following three types of streaming device to it in order to use the Channels app with your LG TV:


Apple TV
Fire TV
Android TV (which could be the TiVo Stream 4K, the Onn 4K Box, the Nvidia Shield TV, etc.)
Be aware that the Nvidia Shield TV (reg. $200) can both run the Channels server software and store your DVR recordings _and_ also act as your app streaming device, running the Channels app on your TV. You'll probably want to connect an external USB hard drive to the Nvidia Shield TV to increase the amount of DVR recordings it can store.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

cwoody222 said:


> Switch to Fios like yesterday. It’s FAR superior to Spectrum!


Yes if only I could.
spectrum & Att are my choices.


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## symbiat (Jun 28, 2005)

ncbill said:


> Just had that install done today (only had phone service prior) and when it was finished the tech physically removed the aerial (copper) cable...fiber is in underground conduit.


They rip out the copper so no-one else can ever use that copper ever again. A few years ago a friend ordered FiOS for TV, and when they came over they ripped out his copper but he had DSL over copper at the time... 😂 no Internet for 3 weeks until they "fixed" it.


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## symbiat (Jun 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Be aware that the Nvidia Shield TV (reg. $200) can both run the Channels server software and store your DVR recordings _and_ also act as your app streaming device, running the Channels app on your TV. You'll probably want to connect an external USB hard drive to the Nvidia Shield TV to increase the amount of DVR recordings it can store.


Also a Plex server built in... 😏


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

NashGuy said:


> Ah, but have you tried fast scrolling with a flick of the thumb across the Apple TV's touchpad button? That's pretty nice too.


That remote is the only bad thing about Apple TV. I found it worthwhile to replace it with the Salt remote, which has real buttons that actually work.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ej42137 said:


> That remote is the only bad thing about Apple TV. I found it worthwhile to replace it with the Salt remote, which has real buttons that actually work.


It has its issues but once I got used to it, I actually quite like the Apple TV remote. And the second-gen version, which I have now, is definitely better. But, yes, the touchpad can be a bit tricky.


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## symbiat (Jun 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> But, yes, the touchpad can be a bit tricky.


Designers love touch interfaces but I find them to be a PITA - thankfully Apple abandoned it on the MacBook Pro (and also fixed the horrible keyboard a couple years ago).


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