# New Year's Choice: Which would you choose; HR20 or HR10-250



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

I have a friend that has a presentation to do.
And we where brainstorming on a topic.... at the same time I was on the forums.. 

So we thought it would be a good question to ask.

To "standardize" some things:


You are staying with DirecTV for what ever reason, and don't care about the 2 year commitment
The systems would be at no cost to you
HR20 has OTA/ViiV (the latest build is pushed out)
HR10-250 has 6.3b and is stock (not hacked)
The 2007 SAT launches haven't happened yet
Other appropriate hardware is not an issue (multiswitches, dish, ect)

So straight up... HR20 vs HR10

If you where offered an HR20 or an HR10-250
Which would you choose?

And yes... I do know what forum this is...
I am posting this accross the three major forums.....

To get as much input as possible.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

HR20-700. Of course, I already have a HR10, but if I planned on staying with D*, I'd want the HD DVR that's intended for the future and I've found the HR20 I already have to be reliable up to this time.


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## az_double_eagle (Aug 14, 2006)

The lack of dual live buffers in the HR20 eliminates it from my consideration.

In my case, since I also have an HDVR2 (SD DirecTiVo unit), that is also a factor in wanting an HR10-250, because the user interfaces are virtually the same.

Glad to help out, Earl.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

bidger said:


> HR20-700. Of course, I already have a HR10, but if I planned on staying with D*, I'd want the HD DVR that's intended for the future and I've found the HR20 I already have to be reliable up to this time.


Exactly, if I can't flip back and forth between two current programs, it's not for me.

I'd take an HR20-700 for free though if they were handing them out.


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## JohnDG (Oct 28, 2004)

HR10 now.

I'd upgrade to an HR20 and use the HR10 as a SD TiVo when there is no choice.

jdg


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Where do I sign up...Please send me a HR20-700 for christmas at no cost....


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

HR20 since I'd be looking at it as being functional for at least the next few years as the new satelites go up and MPEG 4 goes live.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

rifleman69 said:


> Exactly, if I can't flip back and forth between two current programs, it's not for me.


Uh...you quoted me, but I _think_ you meant to quote az_double_eagle.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> And yes... I do know what forum this is...
> I am posting this accross the three major forums.....


Earl, could you please post the links to the other two forum polls? So far, it's about 2:1 in favor of the HR10 here... no surprise. I'm curious to see how the HR10 fares in the HR20 forum, however, and couldn't find that poll.

I also wonder if the numbers here wouldn't skew even more heavily to the HR10 if the 6.3b OTA dropout fix had more time to propagate.

/steve

EDIT: Found one of them here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73148. 5:1 in favor of the HR20. Can one assume all HR20 owners were prior HR10 owners, and vice versa? Otherwise, the votes are not from users who have actually compared the two. Having been in the technology business for 35 years, it's been my experience that folks generally "fall in love" with the first application or device they master.


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## hoopsrgreat (Jan 2, 2005)

no dual buffers means an easy choice of the hr10-250.


Get used to swapping back and forth betwen two shows at the same time and skipping the commericals is like asking a heterosexual to try it the other way


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

sluciani said:


> EDIT: Found one of them here:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73148. 5:1 in favor of the HR20. Can one assume all HR20 owners were prior HR10 owners, and vice versa? Otherwise, the votes are not from users who have actually compared the two. Having been in the technology business for 35 years, it's been my experience that folks generally "fall in love" with the first application or device they master.


I think at DBSTalk you will find most have used the HR10 or some flavor of Tivo. On the other hand, most here are simply imagining that they won't like the HR20 as there has been no need or impetus for them to switch and gain that experience.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

I said HR20.

I greatly prefer the TiVo interface, but the HR20 will be necessary for all the new HD channels that will be added in the future in MPEG4 only.

There is a workaround for the lack of dual live buffers: record both shows!

In the medium term, the HR10 will be able to only receive a fraction of the HD channels available. In the long term, perhaps none at all (if all the HD channels are eventually converted, as DirecTV has suggested will happen some day).


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## pmturcotte (May 7, 2001)

No dual buffers and no OTA HD handling. I live in such great proximity to all my locals on OTAHD that I see no way the pq would get better by not viewing them OTA - in fact I wager they would be significantly worse.

HR10-250 for me all the way please.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

pmturcotte said:


> No dual buffers and no OTA HD handling. I live in such great proximity to all my locals on OTAHD that I see no way the pq would get better by not viewing them OTA - in fact I wager they would be significantly worse.
> 
> HR10-250 for me all the way please.


OTA is being rolled out now on a staggered basis


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## jcricket (Sep 11, 2002)

I like the Tivo interface, although I'm not wedded to it. I like DirecTV and their pricing structure, although I'm not wedded to them either. I haven't subscribed to cable since 1996 (started with Echostar, went to DirecTV in 2002 for my first DirecTivo). For now, the HR10 still makes sense for me, especially if it were free. Here's my argument:

If you can get your locals OTA reliably, the HR20 is currently a sideways trade from an HR10. For now, assume OTA/ATSC recording is available on the HR20, ignore any UI preference issues and and discount the value of any advanced features like MRV or HMO (which aren't really available in any meaningful way on either device). With those thing considered, the HR20 is basically a dual-tuner HD DVR for DirecTV that can record OTA ATSC or MPEG2 satellite channels.

*However, to be considered a real sideways trade, the HR20 has to be at least as reliable as the HR10. * With the exception of the audio drop-out bug, the HR10 has been pretty darn reliable for most people over the past couple of years. Judging from my reading of the DBSTalk forums with the weekly software releases the HR20 isn't there yet. It appears to be getting better, but until the frequency of software "fixes stability issues" or "enables core features" releases slow to a trickle (less-frequent than quarterly) and the complainers are in the minority, it's a downgrade from the HR10.

If, however, you *can't* get HD locals reliably via OTA *and* DirecTV has the satellite locals in your area, the HR20 is probably more appealing right now. There are caveats to that too, of course. In my area they claim to be "live" with the MPEG4 HD locals, but in reality they only have two out of the four majors. I get all 4 majors + the CW reliably (only PBS and the old WB don't work) via my OTA antenna.

The obvious long-term issue is that there will eventually be some or many national MPEG4-only HD channels, and the HR10 will not be able to receive them. Then, the HR20 will be a lot more appealing.

For me: DirecTV has to do the following before the HR20 is a "trade-up": 

Make the HR20 rock-solid stable
Make it free (it's not really better than Comcast's offering, so why should I pay for it?)
Give me *all the important locals* via satellite (NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, PBS + CW)
Offer new national HD channels in MPEG4
Do this for a subscription price that's competitive with cable


Dual buffers, MRV, HMO, etc. and other features are really nice, but until the above 5 things happen, there's just no reason to get an HR20 if you like the HR10.

Is what I'm asking for gonna happen in 2007? 2008? Ask me the same question then, you might get a different answer.


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## old7 (Aug 7, 2002)

I selected the HR20. I already have two HR10s. I am planning to get an HR20 before April. I also plan on keeping both HR10s, if for nothing else, to record OTA. As long as there are DirecTV HD channels that the HR10s can record, I will use the HR10s to record them. I still have a couple of SD DirecTiVos that record SD only programs.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

jcricket said:


> I like the Tivo interface, although I'm not wedded to it. I like DirecTV and their pricing structure, although I'm not wedded to them either. I haven't subscribed to cable since 1996 (started with Echostar, went to DirecTV in 2002 for my first DirecTivo). For now, the HR10 still makes sense for me, especially if it were free. Here's my argument:
> 
> If you can get your locals OTA reliably, the HR20 is currently a sideways trade from an HR10. For now, assume OTA/ATSC recording is available on the HR20, ignore any UI preference issues and and discount the value of any advanced features like MRV or HMO (which aren't really available in any meaningful way on either device). With those thing considered, the HR20 is basically a dual-tuner HD DVR for DirecTV that can record OTA ATSC or MPEG2 satellite channels.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of words for a guy who's never held the HR20 remote in his hands. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is a current, strong reason for someone happy with their HR10 to switch, but your lengthy analysis is weak given that you've only experienced one first hand.


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

az_double_eagle said:


> The lack of dual live buffers in the HR20 eliminates it from my consideration.
> 
> In my case, since I also have an HDVR2 (SD DirecTiVo unit), that is also a factor in wanting an HR10-250, because the user interfaces are virtually the same.


What he said! I've gotten real attached to two dual buffers and like the Tivo interface on my SD DirecTivo as well.

Cheryl


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## jcricket (Sep 11, 2002)

Billy66 said:


> That's a lot of words for a guy who's never held the HR20 remote in his hands.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is a current, strong reason for someone happy with their HR10 to switch, but your lengthy analysis is weak given that you've only experienced one first hand.


Don't think I need to hold an HR20 to make the judgment calls I make. I don't think the argument is weak at all. Nothing in my argument requires the HR10 be lifted to some lofty perch of awesomeness.

The HR20 is clearly (unless they reverse course) the future of DirecTV's HD DVR offerings, making it a good long-term bet. But right now, it's merely comparable to the HR10, making it a sideways trade, and with the reliability issues it's a downgrade.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

We're basically in agreement jcricket...and I thank you for your "TiVo Fanboy Restrasint". 

I remember first getting my 14 hour TiVo and telling people how cool TiVo was and most were very sure that they didn't need to use it to know they didn't need it. 

The reliability issues with the HR20 are not universal, but I do agree that for most people, right now, it's lateral at best. There is no reason to make a switch at the moment.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> We're basically in agreement jcricket...and I thank you for your "TiVo Fanboy Restrasint".
> 
> I remember first getting my 14 hour TiVo and telling people how cool TiVo was and most were very sure that they didn't need to use it to know they didn't need it.
> 
> The reliability issues with the HR20 are not universal, but I do agree that for most people, right now, it's lateral at best. There is no reason to make a switch at the moment.


I don't read Earl's question as a choice os switching, I read it as someone getting their first HD DVR.

That being the case I looked to the future in regards to D* and where things are headed over the medium/long haul.


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## i_be_broke (Feb 16, 2006)

Other than being 'future-proof'...and helping those outside of OTA range...is there any advantage to the HR20-700?

Let's face facts...DTV is giving us a 'take it or leave it' approach to their new DVR. I'm going to need more than the 'doom and gloom' talk of Mpeg4 ("It's coming...you better be ready or you'll be left behind!") to make me switch.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bidger said:


> HR20-700. Of course, I already have a HR10, but if I planned on staying with D*, I'd want the HD DVR that's intended for the future and I've found the HR20 I already have to be reliable up to this time.


I am answering as if this choice is about getting an additional HD-DVR from DirecTV - not as if it's about getting my first HD-DVR.

In that light, I voted to get an HR20-700, as I already have two HR10-250s to handle all of my dual-buffering needs, and could use the HR20 for my RSN, YES-HD.

Oh yeah, Earl said it was also free. I will need a new multiswitch and dish for free, too. Thanks, and can I have it all by January 3rd, please?


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## jcricket (Sep 11, 2002)

drew2k said:


> I will need a new multiswitch and dish for free, too. Thanks, and can I have it all by January 3rd, please?


I forgot, you can't (or aren't supposed to) diplex OTA with the new multiswitch + dish. For that reason alone I can't vote for the HR20, until the FTM stuff is available and I can send single runs for satellite + single runs for OTA through separate switches to a HR20.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

As much as I hate learning new interfaces, it is inevitable at some point soon that I will have to switch to the HR20 to stay with DTV. So getting another HR10 today seems like short term thinking to me. From what I've read on the other forum the stability of the HR20 has improved greatly in the last 3 months. I've never knowingly used dual buffers so that isn't an issue for me.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

az_double_eagle said:


> The lack of dual live buffers in the HR20 eliminates it from my consideration.
> ...


Can't you guys and gals effectively solve the lack of dual buffers on the HR20 by setting record for each program and switch from tuner to tuner? Don't know if that works on the HR20 since I don't have one.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Hey Earl - After you share the results with your friend, would you mind sharing the results from all three forums here? I'm interested int he results as well, and think it would be cool to see if there is a bias at each forum. (I'd expect members here to vote for HR10, voters at DBS to vote for HR20, and I don't know your third forum.)

Also - what are the odds that DirecTV is (or will be) monitoring these polls, and will start making offers of new equipment come January?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

hiker said:


> Can't you guys and gals effectively solve the lack of dual buffers on the HR20 by setting record for each program and switch from tuner to tuner? Don't know if that works on the HR20 since I don't have one.


I don't believe you can switch tuners on the HR20 using a remote shortcut, like you can do on the HR10. You'd have to go into the HR20 "My VOD" (Now playing List) menu and switch from there.

I guess that would be:

Record first channel
Hit Guide button
Navigate to second desired channel and press Record
Use whatever key combo gets you to the My VOD page.
Select show
Return to My VOD (will HR20 remember where you last left off viewing the currently recording title?)
Select the other currently recording show
etc.

Maybe it's not as bad as I thought it would be, but you do need to have the free space to record both titles...


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Oh. And I'll need four of those because I couldn't handle having the Tivo interface on some TV's and the new interface on others. Its gotta be all or nothing.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

drew2k said:


> Hey Earl - After you share the results with your friend, would you mind sharing the results from all three forums here? I'm interested int he results as well, and think it would be cool to see if there is a bias at each forum. (I'd expect members here to vote for HR10, voters at DBS to vote for HR20, and I don't know your third forum.)
> 
> Also - what are the odds that DirecTV is (or will be) monitoring these polls, and will start making offers of new equipment come January?


I will post a summary on Monday/Tuesday with the results.

As as "unscientific" as this is, I am sure others will be intrested in the results as well.


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## jcricket (Sep 11, 2002)

Billy66 said:


> We're basically in agreement jcricket...and I thank you for your "TiVo Fanboy Restraint".


Not a problem. Again, I like the HR10, but it's far from perfect. I wish it were speedier (even after 6.3), had HMO, MRV + Internet scheduling. I wish there was a less confusing way to find out what's *not recording* and why (I have a lot of SPs).

Honestly, the HR20 doesn't look that bad to me, and if it were my first DVR I don't think I'd have any complaints besides reliability issues (if those hit me). But it's not my first DVR. It will be my 4th (Original Dishplayer, Original DirecTivo, HD Tivo, ...) - So my bar is a little higher to want to deal with the switching hassle. Plus, Comcast offers free DVRs these days, and Dish's offerings aren't bad. Competitive playing field you know.

That's all.

I'm disappointed by D*s decision not to stick with Tivo, but hopeful they'll come up with something that's a reasonable alternative so I can stick with D*. If not, c'est la vie (translation: Hello Comcast or Dish).

And really, I'm disappointed that everyone seems to have "stagnated" the amount of features available in their HD DVRs. Where's my 4 tuners? Where's the downloadable movies? Why do I have to have 3 of these things recording the same thing?


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

drew2k said:


> I don't believe you can switch tuners on the HR20 using a remote shortcut, like you can do on the HR10. You'd have to go into the HR20 "My VOD" (Now playing List) menu and switch from there.
> 
> ...


No swap tuners button on the remote. Geez, even the crappy Motorola DVRs have it.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> I think at DBSTalk you will find most have used the HR10 or some flavor of Tivo. On the other hand, most here are simply imagining that they won't like the HR20 as there has been no need or impetus for them to switch and gain that experience.


I've got one of each. And I'm not sure that most folks at DBSTalk have used an HR10 (though possibly an earlier Tivo). Quite a few DVR newbies there.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

hiker said:


> Can't you guys and gals effectively solve the lack of dual buffers on the HR20 by setting record for each program and switch from tuner to tuner? Don't know if that works on the HR20 since I don't have one.


That works to an extent as long as there aren't many channel changes going on. I think a lot use dual buffers to watch live TV just behind live, so there are channel changing concerns etc.

For those like me, recording both works just fine and it's actually the same in keystrokes to doing it on the HR10. (with the exception of pressing the record button initially).

HR10=Pause>>Down Arrow>>Pause(or Play) and then you resume watching.

HR20=List>>Up (or Down) arrow>>Play (because they are recorded, there isn't a need to pause)


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## Smuuth (Sep 21, 2005)

I would take the HR20-700 on the condition it was at no cost and I could keep my HR10-250. 

The 2 year commitment does not bother me as I have no intention of leaving D* for either E* or Comcast, given the current reasonably-priced equipment choices for either of them. 

However, should Comcast make the Tivo S3 available at a reasonable price, my thinking could be subject to change.


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## snickerrrrs (Mar 31, 2006)

HR10-250 of course, The ONLY thing keeping me with D* are my DirecTivos, as soon as they stop working I'll switch to Dish (depending on what happens with the Tivo lawsuit settlement) or wait for Series 3 to drop in price and get a cable card. Are you listening D*?


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## hpb (Sep 29, 2000)

HR10-250

I'm probably in the minority, but the Suggestions and Wishlists are must have features.

Might as well use a VCR (I think I threw-up a little bit) if all it's going to do is record a specific channel at a specific time.


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## rickaren (Oct 30, 2002)

Always want what is new so give me a free up-grade to the HR-20 and I will keep my HR10-250 as a back-up, just in case.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

HR20 all the way.
For the "advanced" stuff.
As mentioned OTA HD is rolling out now.
eSATA port for external storage is active now.
And networking via the ethernet port (for music and photo sharing currently) is also rolling outnow.

I'll take another HR20 to replace my SD DirecTivo any day of the week.

As for DBSTalk and if people have used Tivo before. Yes, most have had at least an SD DirecTivo. I've been using Tivo since 2000 personally.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

bidger said:


> Uh...you quoted me, but I _think_ you meant to quote az_double_eagle.


You would be correct, don't know why I hit the wrong button.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

hiker said:


> Can't you guys and gals effectively solve the lack of dual buffers on the HR20 by setting record for each program and switch from tuner to tuner? Don't know if that works on the HR20 since I don't have one.


What if you're switching between three games, recording two won't work. Happens a lot for sporting events, like the NCAA's and pro football (Sunday Ticket).


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## jgjackson (Oct 27, 2006)

You left off a third choice: Get a Tivo Series 3 and go with local cable. That's what I would do if I were starting from scratch right now.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

jcricket said:


> *However, to be considered a real sideways trade, the HR20 has to be at least as reliable as the HR10. * With the exception of the audio drop-out bug, the HR10 has been pretty darn reliable for most people over the past couple of years. Judging from my reading of the DBSTalk forums with the weekly software releases the HR20 isn't there yet. It appears to be getting better, but until the frequency of software "fixes stability issues" or "enables core features" releases slow to a trickle (less-frequent than quarterly) and the complainers are in the minority, it's a downgrade from the HR10.


Want to rephrase that? right now compared to the HR10 issues I am having, a drunk monkey with a super 8 movie camera wold do a better job and be more reliable


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

jgjackson said:


> You left off a third choice: Get a Tivo Series 3 and go with local cable. That's what I would do if I were starting from scratch right now.


Did you read the first post?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

sjberra said:


> Want to rephrase that? right now compared to the HR10 issues I am having, a drunk monkey with a super 8 movie camera wold do a better job and be more reliable


and be a helluva lotta fun to watch.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

rifleman69 said:


> What if you're switching between three games, recording two won't work. Happens a lot for sporting events, like the NCAA's and pro football (Sunday Ticket).


Three live games? How do you do that?


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

hiker said:


> Three live games? How do you do that?


Leave favorite game on tuner 1, use tuner 2 to flop back and forth between games two and three. Just like the bad-old-days of channel surfing...without a buffer.


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## old7 (Aug 7, 2002)

morgantown said:


> Leave favorite game on tuner 1, use tuner 2 to flop back and forth between games two and three. Just like the bad-old-days of channel surfing...without a buffer.


I do this frequently during football season and more than occasionally during baseball season. Being able to switch tuners is very important to me.


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## aVOLanche (Jul 20, 2004)

HR10-250 ......Dual buffers.........I'd really miss them.A Series 3 might be in my future.The NFL Sunday Ticket is pricing it's way out of range,and that keeps me with D*.


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## EMoMoney (Oct 30, 2001)

I have one of each and I must agree with most people here and say that I prefer the TiVo interface, however the HR20 interface is growing on me as well as the unit in general. I had briefly tried the Comcast DVR, which they only use the Scientific Atlanta boxes in my county with the SARA software, which never grew on me for months. 

The HR20 in general is getting better and more stable. I've not had any corrupt recordings in several weeks, I do not have rebooting issues, and the MPEG4 quality is improving for my locals. I think the HR20 will be a pretty good DVR when all is said and done.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Since 90% of my recording is OTA and dual buffers and stablilty are my main concerns hr10 for sure. I watch like 3-4 football games at once on sundays can't do that with out dual buffers. I work lots of afternoons so I am not there to babysit the DVR so I need stability. When I get a hr20 one day I will still keep the tivo for SD/important OTA stuff. From what I have read at dbs talk no way I could trust the HR20 to record my most important shows like lost and 24.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Langree said:


> and be a helluva lotta fun to watch.


This is true, I just don;t want ot be the one to cut him/her off at last call...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

jgjackson said:


> You left off a third choice: Get a Tivo Series 3 and go with local cable. That's what I would do if I were starting from scratch right now.


I wanted to limit this to just DirecTV as a "carrier"...
If you start spreading out to other carriers, the combinations become really... endless.


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

I voted for the HR20-700. Mostly out of curiousity. I have one HR10 in use, and one as a spare. I don't think I need a third. I would, however, be interested in kicking the tires on the HR20. It does come with tires, right?!?


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

morgantown said:


> Leave favorite game on tuner 1, use tuner 2 to flop back and forth between games two and three. Just like the bad-old-days of channel surfing...without a buffer.


Exactly, many of those I don't need the dual buffers (but if one game gets out of hand or boring, I can leave it on the other game to pick up some buffer).


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> I wanted to limit this to just DirecTV as a "carrier"...
> If you start spreading out to other carriers, the combinations become really... endless.


But that makes your poll meaningless. Are you trying to guage what people want, or what they'll actually do? If it's the former, what many people really want is a TiVo S3 for DirecTV. If it's the latter, then you can't realistically exclude switching to something else entirely.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

nrc said:


> But that makes your poll meaningless. Are you trying to guage what people want, or what they'll actually do? If it's the former, what many people really want is a TiVo S3 for DirecTV. If it's the latter, then you can't realistically exclude switching to something else entirely.


Huh?  The poll seemed pretty clear and simple to me. Given the conditions listed would you choose A or B? Where are you coming up with S3 as an option?

Anyway for me it would be the HR20 because I am not a Tivo lemming.


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## cassos (Jan 11, 2003)

Tivo was borned and raised in Mountain View.
I have been in Mountain View for 15 years,
I bought my first SAT-T60 in i n 1999, solid rock Tivo1
machine, still kicking today! (got tivo life time)
Went HD last year with the H10-250 over a year ago:
great with 3.5f, sucked with 6.3a, got hope in 6.3b
Even my cats carry their 1999 Tivo dolls to bed.

I vote Tivo !
Note that I am attached to Tivo in case you did not notice  
not D*  

Now that I have seen the Tivo3 in action, and that may get
me back to cable after 7 years of D*...
OTA is indeed important in Silicon Valley where we have
amazingly good HD reception from both San Francisco
and san Jose


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Mark Lopez said:


> Huh?  The poll seemed pretty clear and simple to me. Given the conditions listed would you choose A or B? Where are you coming up with S3 as an option?


North America, Planet Earth. I don't know where Earl's getting his options from.

If you take this as a meaningless hypothetical question, fine, whatever. But it doesn't represent either what people really want or what they will do.



> Anyway for me it would be the HR20 because I am not a Tivo lemming.


Um. You're not a lemming but you can't concieve of any option except following the DirecTV over the cliff. Right.


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## SledgeHammer! (Mar 7, 2006)

Well, let me tell ya Earl, I *JUST* had to make this choice a week or two ago. I'm finally beginning my HiDef migration coming off some really old equipment (27" Sony, Sony SAT-T60, etc). I chose the HR10-250. It was a no brainer for me, even with having to deal with the hassle of paying $500 for a "new" one off of eBay. 

Heres why:

1) as others have stated: dual live buffers & OTA support (although shortly after I won the auction DTV activated OTA on the HR20) -- but no dual live buffers is a deal breaker for me, I use that feature all the time. The work-around to simulate this feature on the HR20 is too big of a hassle.

2) the tivo UI is far better then any other DVR I have seen

3) the HR10-250 is physically a much better looking unit then the HR20 (yeah, I care about how my electronics look and am usually willing to sacrafice on something else to get the better looking unit).

4) I don't really care about MPEG4 at this point. My impression is that MPEG4 will be used soley for the HiDef locals (and since I'm getting those off OTA, who cares). I dont see the nationals going MPEG4 only anytime soon.

5) Although your initial survey stated a stock HR10, the fact that the HR10 *IS* upgradable where the HR20 is not was also a factor in my choice.

6) I like the little tivo guy


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

nrc said:


> North America, Planet Earth. I don't know where Earl's getting his options from.
> 
> If you take this as a meaningless hypothetical question, fine, whatever. But it doesn't represent either what people really want or what they will do.
> 
> Um. You're not a lemming but you can't concieve of any option except following the DirecTV over the cliff. Right.


You are right... TiVo Series 3 is a viable option for consumers.
But that was not the point of this "poll"..

Too many variables come into play, if you also ask
There has to be a common point.... and in this case... DirecTV as the carrier.

It is part of the problem on why you can not just simply compare...

Dish Networks VIP systems
DirecTV's DVRs
Cable-Co's DVRs
TiVo Series 3 ect...

There are way more factors than "JUST" the DVR, that play into that type of equation.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

cassos said:


> Tivo was borned and raised in Mountain View.
> I have been in Mountain View for 15 years,
> I bought my first SAT-T60 in i n 1999, solid rock Tivo1
> machine, still kicking today!


Either couldn't have been a T60 or couldn't have been 1999. The T60 came out at the end 0f 2000. The SVR200 SA TiVo came out in 1999.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

SledgeHammer! said:


> 5) Although your initial survey stated a stock HR10, the fact that the HR10 *IS* upgradable where the HR20 is not was also a factor in my choice.


I believe the the HR20 *can* be upgraded by adding a second hard-drive to increase storage capacity.


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

pmturcotte said:


> no OTA HD handling.


 I beg to differ...


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

SledgeHammer! said:


> 4) I don't really care about MPEG4 at this point. My impression is that MPEG4 will be used soley for the HiDef locals (and since I'm getting those off OTA, who cares). I dont see the nationals going MPEG4 only anytime soon.


Well, you're wrong there. Right now the HD locals *and* HD RSN's are in MPEG4. But once the next 2 sats go up next year then all new national HD will be in MPEG4 and there will be a quick migration of current MPEG2 HD over to MPEG4.

So anything new national will be in MPEG4.
You've got about 18 months on the outside before MPEG2 HD is shut down.

This has been the plan for the past 3 years.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

drew2k said:


> I believe the the HR20 *can* be upgraded by adding a second hard-drive to increase storage capacity.


More accurately, the HR20's hard drive can be replaced with a larger one.
Either internally or external. Right now the HR20 can only work with one drive at a time.

But you actually can simply plug in a 750gb eSATA drive to the system (straight out of the box), and it will work with the HR20... no software to copy or anything.

Same goes for an upgraded internal one.

The external solution is also goo, for those that want some really big system.

Two 750's in a RAID enclosure... 1.5TB


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## thepackfan (May 21, 2003)

Hey Earl, 
Any New news on the Media center(Holy Grail) PVR?


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

HR20

MPEG4


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## cassos (Jan 11, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Either couldn't have been a T60 or couldn't have been 1999. The T60 came out at the end 0f 2000. The SVR200 SA TiVo came out in 1999.


You are right, I just checked and realized I got my first Tivo T60 on X-mas 2000
for which I paid a lifetime subscription at $199, I forogot that I started with D* without Tivo for year, I guess I forgot that part of my life 

My point was that I clearly vote for Tivo technology,
with an amizing experience on the D*Tivo 1,
pretty good on D*Tivo2 SD, but a lot more problem
with D*Tivo2 HD especially 6.3.x, and Tivo 3 has
great potential but away from D*


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

thepackfan said:


> Hey Earl,
> Any New news on the Media center(Holy Grail) PVR?


Sorry, no new news about the HMC.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

nrc said:


> Um. You're not a lemming but you can't concieve of any option except following the DirecTV over the cliff. Right.


For many rural people (like myself) there is no cable. So satellite is the option. Given I have no real issue with DirecTVs programming, that only leaves the choice of which DVR to use. I like my Tivo as much as the next person, but I an not such a Tivo zealot (lemming) that I won't explore other options. I've had a Tivo of one version or another for 7 years and it has barely evolved at all. Other than folders it does practically the same thing it did the first year (and still has bugs). I suppose you still like Win95.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

drew2k said:


> I believe the the HR20 *can* be upgraded by adding a second hard-drive to increase storage capacity.


The Esata plug is active on the back of the HR20


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bonscott87 said:


> So anything new national will be in MPEG4.
> You've got about 18 months on the outside before MPEG2 HD is shut down.
> 
> This has been the plan for the past 3 years.


I don't believe DTV will shut off MPEG2 HD within the next two years. They just can't afford to swap people that quickly and the churn they'd have if they control the expense by forcing people to pay would be too much.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

nrc said:


> I don't believe DTV will shut off MPEG2 HD within the next two years. They just can't afford to swap people that quickly and the churn they'd have if they control the expense by forcing people to pay would be too much.


You make it sound like people would have to invest a lot of money to switch receivers. The fact is that even now (before major addition of new channels) quite a few people don't mind to pay few dollars to get locals on satellite instead of OTA. I paid $200 to get HR20 (and I didn't get the best offer because I never had HR10) and to me it was well worth it. I also got VIP622 (I sub to both Dish and DTV) and guess what - it also was $200. I guess few people will switch to cable and get a free DVR (certainly if $200 is too much, they wouldn't spend $800 for cripple, bug ridden S3), but if DirecTV gets good offerings for HD programming they wouldn't have to worry about people switching providers - not many HD customers are that cheap.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Mark Lopez said:


> For many rural people (like myself) there is no cable. So satellite is the option. Given I have no real issue with DirecTVs programming, that only leaves the choice of which DVR to use. I like my Tivo as much as the next person, but I an not such a Tivo zealot (lemming) that I won't explore other options. I've had a Tivo of one version or another for 7 years and it has barely evolved at all. Other than folders it does practically the same thing it did the first year (and still has bugs). I suppose you still like Win95.


And I'm not such a DirecTV zealot that I won't explore other options. Their DVR direction is only one of many reasons to be disatisfied with their direction. Giant ugly dishes, a fat bundle of cables running to every receiver, channels compressed down to mush, no viable bundled services, leased equipment, annual commitments... the list goes on.

As for TiVo's lack of advancement on the DirecTV platform - that's entirely DirecTV's fault. They could have had HMO and any number of other new features a long time ago if they hadn't squelched TiVo in favor of their house brand.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

samo said:


> You make it sound like people would have to invest a lot of money to switch receivers. The fact is that even now (before major addition of new channels) quite a few people don't mind to pay few dollars to get locals on satellite instead of OTA. I paid $200 to get HR20 (and I didn't get the best offer because I never had HR10) and to me it was well worth it.


Evidently not enough people have been excited enough about that deal for DirecTV to reach their goal for the number of swaps this year. But aside from that, it still costs DirecTV money to make that swap even if you're happy to give them $200. The average swap this year has cost DirecTV $447 dollars - that's their cost after whatever money they extract from the customer for the privilage of another two year commitment.

DirecTV has around 800,000 MPEG2 HD subscribers they've yet to swap out. At $400 a pop that will cost them $320 million. They're simply not going to eat that whole expense over the next 18 months.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

nrc said:


> And I'm not such a DirecTV zealot that I won't explore other options. Their DVR direction is only one of many reasons to be disatisfied with their direction. Giant ugly dishes, a fat bundle of cables running to every receiver, channels compressed down to mush, no viable bundled services, leased equipment, annual commitments... the list goes on.


You see, if you read clearly, Mark does not have a choice if he wants TV where he lives. It's DTV or Dish for him.

Your list is funny considering you would be comparing it to cable, but as it's OT from the post you were quoting and miles away from the poll the OP wanted, I'll leave you with your opinion



> As for TiVo's lack of advancement on the DirecTV platform - that's entirely DirecTV's fault. They could have had HMO and any number of other new features a long time ago if they hadn't squelched TiVo in favor of their house brand.


Maybe, like TiVo's failure EVERYWHERE else, it was because they couldn't make money with them. DTV has sold more TiVo's than anyone ever has or ever will. Their own offering allows them to do other things, to control the process and most importantly, to stop dumping cash into a failing technology company (DTV, prior to the DTivo made an enormous investment into TiVo)

And the house brand is offering HMO features already. Do you know they squelched it or are you just protecting your beloved? Did TiVo ask for more money for those fabulous features? Do you know? I thought not.

In the end, if they could have made the most money with TiVo they would have stuck with them. They could be wrong about their assumptions, but in TiVo's history, nobody has made money investing in or partnering with TiVo Inc.


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

I did take the 3rd possible option. I solved my DirecTV problem and went back to cable with a Series3. I couldn't be happier and I thought DirecTV was god and cable the devil. I just want my TiVo! It works with OTA and FIOS too and that's coming around here soon.

I switched to Comcast cable back in August and had their DVR for awhile. It was a gratifying moment when the cable guy unplugged that piece of junk Motorola DVR and took it away. Now, it's my choice of equipment and I own it. Now, I manage the content. Same great experience and satifaction as I had when I first went with DirecTV in 1994 and then DirecTiVos.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

You know mtchamp, there are only two options in the poll. The third is only in the minds of the thread highjackers. It exists in real life for sure, but not in this poll.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

nrc said:


> I don't believe DTV will shut off MPEG2 HD within the next two years. They just can't afford to swap people that quickly and the churn they'd have if they control the expense by forcing people to pay would be too much.


One thing that must be remembered, there aren't that many people that have HD equipment in the first place. Under 1 million. HR10's? Maybe a couple hundred thousand. H20 has been out there over a year now as the only regular HD box. And many are already willing to pay for and HR20 swap.

They won't have any problems at all switching people to MPEG4 receivers within 2 years. No problem at all.
Especially if SuperFan is MPEG4 only in 2007.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Wandering back to the original topic, I chose the HR10-250. Not an objective decision, mind you. Better the devil you know. There's no real compelling reason yet for me to go MPEG4 (except maybe for getting WBBM-CBS2 in Chicago), and the family just loves the Tivo interface.

Two and a half years from now, after analog shutdown, there might be because of the way some channels will be moving around here -- OTA reception is going to be tougher for me.


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## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

Wow - DirecTV must be really worried about not offering Tivo to their customers to have all this garbage flung at Tivo on the TivoCommunity board.

I only want Tivo Management to be half as good as the product! Then this poll or the garbage being flung at the Tivo product wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, because Tivo still lacks leadership at the top I have to give the DVR Plus at look - and at this point just a look. But if Tivo management continues to make missteps I'll be forced to go HR20. Not that I want to ....ever!

Bonanza


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Where is "Garbage" being flung at TiVo? 

Just because there are people who find a non-TiVo box to be better for them?

You can say the same that TiVo must really be worried, because of the "garbage" being flung at the HR20


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Bonanzaair said:


> ....I have to give the DVR Plus at look - and at this point just a look.
> 
> ....... I'll be forced to go HR20. Not that I want to ....ever!


So let me get his straight, you have not even looked at it because you don't ever want to 'have to', even if it may be better than Tivo? And people wonder why I say 'Tivo lemmings'.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bonscott87 said:


> One thing that must be remembered, there aren't that many people that have HD equipment in the first place. Under 1 million. HR10's? Maybe a couple hundred thousand. H20 has been out there over a year now as the only regular HD box. And many are already willing to pay for and HR20 swap.
> 
> They won't have any problems at all switching people to MPEG4 receivers within 2 years. No problem at all.
> Especially if SuperFan is MPEG4 only in 2007.


DirecTV had about 850,000 MPEG2 HD boxes in the field left to swap at the end of the 3rd Quarter. Swapping costs them over $400 a box on average. That's over $300 million to swap everyone out. If you read what they're saying in their earnings conference calls they're in no hurry to eat that $300 million.

I doubt that there are enough SuperFan households to make much of a dent in that 850,000 number.


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## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

"Where is "Garbage" being flung at TiVo? 
Just because there are people who find a non-TiVo box to be better for them?" 

I just find the number of posters here at the TivoCommunity board that openly support the DirecTV Plus products as suspect. The only reason we are having this discussion is because News Corp/DirecTV made business decisions to move the DVR production in house and to cut off Tivo from making an DVRs capable of using the DirecTV signal without a control box. Yes - That business. As a consumer and an American I'm just plain tired of getting crap shoved down my throat by Big Business. This poll is directly related to decisions that DirecTV has to make on what to do after February 07 when legally by contract DirecTV will not be allowed to sell new Tivo subs. This is a problem because clearly a large number of people are still getting DirecTV Tivos through sponsors of this board or at Ebay, etc. The price on Ebay of a HR10 is now up to $350-400. A large number of people just plain prefer Tivo. All the polls in the world and posters here that tout the R15 and HR20 as superior products won't change that. Some have said I'm hostile....yes...I am. I will be until DirecTV allows Tivo to use the DirecTV signal in new Tivo products Then the marketplace will decide which is the better product. Until then I'll always think of the DTV Plus products as crap. 

"So let me get this straight, you have not even looked at" - Yes Mark....I looked. Sorry, but I didn't find them superior to Tivo. I'm happy that you do. So remind me again why you still post here at the TivoCommunity board? Supporting a DirecTV product over a Tivo at the TivoCommunity board is just disrespectful. 

Bonanza


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

I chose an S3 instead. But as you dissallowed that option, I'd go with the HR10. Not only because I want a TiVo, but you recently mentioned the HR20's limit on the number of season passes, just not enough.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Bonanzaair said:


> So remind me again why you still post here at the TivoCommunity board? Supporting a DirecTV product over a Tivo at the TivoCommunity board is just disrespectful.


Who in hell are you to tell people who been on this forum for 7 years what is respectful to post here? We post what we like and dislike about TiVo here. You don't have to agree with us, we don't have to agree with you. This is not a Yahoo board, we don't try to proclaim our love or hate to TiVo based on our stock positions. We share our opinion about technology and our experience with TiVo and similar products. We not always agree, but we respect each other. This is a reason this board has been around for many years.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

btwyx said:


> I chose an S3 instead. But as you dissallowed that option, I'd go with the HR10. Not only because I want a TiVo, but you recently mentioned the HR20's limit on the number of season passes, just not enough.


I would agree with you if we were comparing hacked TiVo with e-sata expanded HR20. But since we comparing stock models with only 30 hrs of recording time, limit on number of season passes is much less relevant.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

nrc said:


> DirecTV had about 850,000 MPEG2 HD boxes in the field left to swap at the end of the 3rd Quarter. Swapping costs them over $400 a box on average. That's over $300 million to swap everyone out. If you read what they're saying in their earnings conference calls they're in no hurry to eat that $300 million.
> 
> I doubt that there are enough SuperFan households to make much of a dent in that 850,000 number.


I'm not on a board of directors of DirecTV and don't know what their plans are, but $300 million is less than what their net profit is for last quarter and it just doesn't make sense to me that they would spend all these money for satellites and not try to expedite conversion to MPEG4. They are not rushing to replace MPEG2 units yet because one never knows if satellite launch will be successful, but I would expect them to go full steam ahead after satellites are in orbit.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Not really a fair choice, since the average DTV sub wanting an HD DVR won't really have a chance at an HR10-250.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Bonanzaair said:


> I just find the number of posters here at the TivoCommunity board that openly support the DirecTV Plus products as suspect.


So you find it suspect just because not every Tivo owner thinks that Tivo is the 'one and only' DVR? As I've said, I like my Tivo as much as the next person, but I don't have such brand loyalty (to any company) to refuse to look at competitors with an open mind. Considering the number of issues Tivo had when they first rolled out, I think the HR20 is doing pretty good this early in it's life. Sure it has it's issues too, but they seem to be getting fixed at a reasonable pace.



Bonanzaair said:


> Supporting a DirecTV product over a Tivo at the TivoCommunity board is just disrespectful.


I'm sorry you feel that expressing an opinion that doesn't include "I will never leave Tivo" is disrespectful. <shrug>


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

samo said:


> I'm not on a board of directors of DirecTV and don't know what their plans are, but $300 million is less than what their net profit is for last quarter and it just doesn't make sense to me that they would spend all these money for satellites and not try to expedite conversion to MPEG4. They are not rushing to replace MPEG2 units yet because one never knows if satellite launch will be successful, but I would expect them to go full steam ahead after satellites are in orbit.


Back to business school for you.

If you have a choice between (A) spending $300m and (B) not spending $300m, you don't spend it unless there is a real serious compelling reason to.

The initial push will be to use the new sats/MPEG4 locals to acquire new customers. Current ones will convert slowly; there's no hurry.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

samo said:


> But since we comparing stock models with only 30 hrs of recording time,


Who said stock model? My HR10 has 77 hours, and if I were going to be seriously using a new HR10, it'd probably get upgraded to 100 hours (750GB) like my S3.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Bonanzaair said:


> "Where is "Garbage" being flung at TiVo?
> Just because there are people who find a non-TiVo box to be better for them?"
> 
> I just find the number of posters here at the TivoCommunity board that openly support the DirecTV Plus products as suspect. The only reason we are having this discussion is because News Corp/DirecTV made business decisions to move the DVR production in house and to cut off Tivo from making an DVRs capable of using the DirecTV signal without a control box. Yes - That business. As a consumer and an American I'm just plain tired of getting crap shoved down my throat by Big Business. This poll is directly related to decisions that DirecTV has to make on what to do after February 07 when legally by contract DirecTV will not be allowed to sell new Tivo subs. This is a problem because clearly a large number of people are still getting DirecTV Tivos through sponsors of this board or at Ebay, etc. The price on Ebay of a HR10 is now up to $350-400. A large number of people just plain prefer Tivo. All the polls in the world and posters here that tout the R15 and HR20 as superior products won't change that. Some have said I'm hostile....yes...I am. I will be until DirecTV allows Tivo to use the DirecTV signal in new Tivo products Then the marketplace will decide which is the better product. Until then I'll always think of the DTV Plus products as crap.
> ...


I support anything that WORKS - be it a TIVO interface, a D* interface or a drunk monkey with a Super 8 Movie camera. Right now the drunk monkey would be my vote if they will not replace the infamous HR10 unit with a HR20. I am so sick and tired of having the kids scream, the wife scream because the infamous and infalible HR10 locks up 3 or 4 times a day, has audio drop outs, misses recordings or cuts themn short. Not to mention the stock answer of do a clear and delete and it will resolve your issue

Product reliablity is in the eye of the beholder, right now TIVO rates right there with fords Edsel as being reliable with 6.3 on it. As I said - I support anything that works, D* has replaced way to many HR10's for me in the 16 months that I have owned it, right now I am refusing a replacement HR10 unless they can assure me that it will not have the same issues the last 3 have had.

Disrespectful - your opinion, I have no issues with the SD Tivo unit, have 3 of them working that have been working since they where installed years ago, so that should negate that opinion. I do not believe in brand loyality - I believe in paying for something that works - and right now it don;t work reliably


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

btwyx said:


> Who said stock model?


The OP who posted the poll.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> The OP who posted the poll.


Yes, I did.
As your "average" consumer, isn't going to crack the case and apply hacks.

Disk space is "nill" factor, IMHO... since both systems can be upgraded in drive space.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Thanks to everyone that chimmed in... Here are the results accross the three sites.

From www.dbstalk.com Link to Survey: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73148
HR20-700: 206 users; 76.58%
HR10-250; 63 users; 23.42%

From www.tivocommunity.com Link to Survey: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=331751
HR20-700; 53 users; 28.04%
HR10-250; 136 users; 71.96%

From www.satelliteguys.us Link to Survey: http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=84463
HR20-700; 30 users; 58.82%
HR10-250; 21 users; 41.18%

So total:
HR20-700; 289 users; 56.77%
HR10-250; 220 users; 43.23%

So.. Overall.. yes; more people prefer the HR20 then the HR10
But, as you can see results are very indicative of the audience you are asking.

The numbers only tell half the story.
After reading most of the posts: Three things jump out
1)	Stability; a good number of people still selected the HR10, because for whatever reason, they still cant trust the HR20 yet. That will change in time, as stability and reliability improve and prove themselves
2)	Dual buffers; I would have to say 1/3 or more of the people that selected the HR10, specifically stated it was because of the dual buffers an no other reason.
3)	A lot of people that selected that stated they picked the HR10, said they would try the HR20 when they need another HD-DVR


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Bonanzaair said:


> I just find the number of posters here at the TivoCommunity board that openly support the DirecTV Plus products as suspect.


Sorry there but take a look at my join date and number of posts. I've been around here for a long time and have owned many Tivo boxes, both stand alone and DirecTivo's.

I've loved Tivo.

But I'm not a sheep and I'm not married to any technology. I'll try anything with an open mind.

HR20 peaked my interested due to the following:
1) I'm just tired of the Tivo interface and willing to try something new
2) I'm not going anywhere in terms of DirecTv so getting the HR20 allows me to help test it and push it's direction. Plus if it did suck I can investigate other non-DirecTV options so when the time comes that all HD is in MPEG4 I can make a move
3) It's the future and only choice for staying with DirecTV.

I still love my Tivo's and I think they are as solid as ever (in my household).
But I now love the HR20 even more after I gave it a chance. This may not and will not happen for everyone.

But honestly some people are just being sheep if they put their hands on their ears and chant "la..la..la...I can't here you" when someone even suggestes that something other then Tivo is actually not half bad let along pretty good. Or they have this "hate" for some reason for DirecTV dumping Tivo. Get over it. Companies make business decisions based on money, always have. If you can't handle it then find another company that makes you feel better.
I personally could care less what the interface is, so long as it records what I ask it to and my wife and easily use it. The HR20 does that and good thing since it won't be too long as I won't have a choice but to have an HR20 or go somewhere else.

That is the choice everyone must make.
If Tivo is the second coming to you and you just can't even think of using anything else then get prepared to leave DirecTV. It's that simple.
But if you have an open mind and want to stay with DirecTV then give the HR20 a spin. If you end up not liking it, prepare to leave DirecTV.
Again, it's that simple.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> I personally could care less what the interface is, so long as it records what I ask it to and my wife and easily use it. The HR20 does that and good thing since it won't be too long as I won't have a choice but to have an HR20 or go somewhere else.
> 
> That is the choice everyone must make.


While reliably recording is my number one factor in choosing a DVR, there are secondary factors, including feature sets and ease of use. In this poll I did answer that I would take an HR20-700, because I already had two HR10-250s and would simply be expanding. But one thing I would dearly miss on the HR20 would be the skip-to-tick-mark feature that the HR10 has. I could really live without dual buffers, but I do jump around in recordings quite often, and skip-to-tick is a great feature when watching a two-hour movie or special.

One other feature I am positive I will miss is overshoot compensation, where playback resumes at the exact point I pressed the play button, and not a few seconds before or after, according to response time of the receiver.

Playback is where I would spend most of my time, so these two features are VERY important to me.

That being said, I'm going to wait a little bit (January) to see what offers come from DirecTV about getting an HR20 and then I might replace one of my SD DirecTiVo boxes with an HR20, but it really has to cost me nothing to make the switch. (I don't care about the commitment - that doesn't cost me as I intend staying with DirecTV.) Even though I've used the HR15, if I get an HR20 I will go into using it with an open mind, despite the flaws of the HR15, because I've heard these boxes are quite different.

Earl - any idea if DirecTV has any plans to add overshoot compensation or skip-to-tick features to the HR20? (I know there is a "bookmark" feature, but it's not the same thing; skip-to-tick is essentially a pre-defined bookmark that requires no user action to set.)


----------



## SledgeHammer! (Mar 7, 2006)

drew2k said:


> I believe the the HR20 *can* be upgraded by adding a second hard-drive to increase storage capacity.


Theres more to upgrades then just hard drive space. There are a lot of software mods available for Tivo.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

SledgeHammer! said:


> Theres more to upgrades then just hard drive space. There are a lot of software mods available for Tivo.


For as long as I've been here, I think I've almost universally seen only "hacking" used to refer to software mods, whereas "upgrading" has been used used to refer to increased storage capacity. YMMV.

Since the post I replied to mentioned only "upgrading" the box, I only addressed what I knew of in regards to increasing storage capacity, which Earl later clarified.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

drew2k said:


> While reliably recording is my number one factor in choosing a DVR, there are secondary factors, including feature sets and ease of use. In this poll I did answer that I would take an HR20-700, because I already had two HR10-250s and would simply be expanding. But one thing I would dearly miss on the HR20 would be the skip-to-tick-mark feature that the HR10 has. I could really live without dual buffers, but I do jump around in recordings quite often, and skip-to-tick is a great feature when watching a two-hour movie or special.
> 
> One other feature I am positive I will miss is overshoot compensation, where playback resumes at the exact point I pressed the play button, and not a few seconds before or after, according to response time of the receiver.
> 
> ...


FYI, the HR20 has had skip to tick since the beginning, so no need to wait there.

I miss overshoot in theory, but coming out of FF with a replay is getting it done at the moment.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

drew2k said:


> Earl - any idea if DirecTV has any plans to add overshoot compensation or skip-to-tick features to the HR20? (I know there is a "bookmark" feature, but it's not the same thing; skip-to-tick is essentially a pre-defined bookmark that requires no user action to set.)


As Billy said; Skip to tick was introduced I think in the 2nd major update, but it is there now regardless.

As for overshoot... TiVo patent. So other then using the Jump Back to exit out of the FF motion... I don't see it coming along.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Bonanzaair" said:


> So let me get this straight, you have not even looked at" - Yes Mark....I looked. Sorry, but I didn't find them superior to Tivo. I'm happy that you do. So remind me again why you still post here at the TivoCommunity board? Supporting a DirecTV product over a Tivo at the TivoCommunity board is just disrespectful.


I think I tried explaining this to you before, but for the sake of this thread.

For the last 6+ years, this has been one of the "defacto" DirecTV forums.
Not just a DirecTV with TiVo forum, but an overall "DirecTV" forum.

About a year ago, DBSTalk was re-introduced... but still doesn't change the fact that a lot of peole still come HERE to TCF, to get DirecTV news in General.

We still see people asking quesitons about the DVR+ series here.
I get PM's from people asking for help on their DVR+ series

And for the sake of "this" thread...
The entire PURPOSE of it, was to gauge the intrest of people who are very familar with the DTivo platform, and their consideration of the DVR+ series unit.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> FYI, the HR20 has had skip to tick since the beginning, so no need to wait there.


Well that's cool. My mother has an HR15 and I don't recall seeing skip-to-tick on it, so it's good news that it's on the HR20. Does the HR20 set the tick mark every 15 minutes like TiVo?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

The R15 doesn't have skip to tick yet.

And it is similar to the HR10... Hour long program it is 15 minutes
Longer ones, it is like 30 minutes.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> The R15 doesn't have skip to tick yet.
> 
> And it is similar to the HR10... Hour long program it is 15 minutes
> Longer ones, it is like 30 minutes.


Very cool - thanks. Like I said earlier, I've only played with the R15, so I think I have to start reading some more on DBSForums to find out the differences ...


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> The OP who posted the poll.


I missed that bit, then I get a stock HR10 and the first thing I do is drop in an upgrade drive. (Not something I consider a hack.)


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

btwyx said:


> I missed that bit, then I get a stock HR10 and the first thing I do is drop in an upgrade drive. (Not something I consider a hack.)


Nah, not really a hack..
But not something "everyone" is going to considering doing.

But since it can be done on both the HR20 and the HR10... kinda negates one another.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

drew2k said:


> Very cool - thanks. Like I said earlier, I've only played with the R15, so I think I have to start reading some more on DBSForums to find out the differences ...


Yep skip to tick is there. An "extra" feature is the bookmark feature. You can set a bookmark at any spot in a recording (I think with the green button) and it becomes another tick you can skip to. I haven't found a specific use for it myself but here is an example I can think of: Say you record the nightly news and an interesting story comes up you'd like to show someone else later that day. But in a bookmark at the beginning of that segment and then later on you can go right to it instead of FFW'd and trying to remember how far in it was.

As for the autocorrection, as mentioned it's a Tivo patent. But I personally FFW adn then hit replay coming out of it intead of play. The replay makes it "skip back" a few seconds just like autocorrection. So it's just like the play out of a FFW on a Tivo. The bonus though is if it's not back quite far enough just hit replay another time or 2 to get were you want to be. I usually do 2-3 replays. I find now when I use my Tivo the autocorrection drives me nuts, I've just gotten so use to not using it. Honestly I thought this would be my biggest problem with a non-Tivo but I got around it and am now used to it without it. It is now up at the top of my likes for the HR20.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Nah, not really a hack..
> But not something "everyone" is going to considering doing.
> 
> But since it can be done on both the HR20 and the HR10... kinda negates one another.


Earl - have the HR20 user manuals been updated to walk customers through adding an external E-SATA drive? If it's in the manual, the average consumer may be more likely to try a plug-n-play "upgrade" option. Since the HR10 doesn't offer this type of expansion, that would be give the edge to the HR20 as far as upgrades for your average consumers go.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

drew2k said:


> Earl - have the HR20 user manuals been updated to walk customers through adding an external E-SATA drive? If it's in the manual, the average consumer may be more likely to try a plug-n-play "upgrade" option. Since the HR10 doesn't offer this type of expansion, that would be give the edge to the HR20 as far as upgrades for your average consumers go.


Currently the e-Sata drive is unsupported but is enabled for those that want to play with. From what I understand it's as easy as just plugging it in and rebooting. The HR20 will do the rest and format the drive.

However right now it's not "extra" storage but it totally replaces the internal drive as the primary. But as Earl mentioned you can easily plug in a 750 gb eSata and get all that extra space without actually cracking the box open and voiding your warranty. If you ever decide you don't need it anymore, unplug/reboot and the internal drive becomes primary again.

I wouldn't doubt one bit that in a year or so DirecTV will offer drive upgrades you can order right from them. Nice source of income and easy to plug in for low support costs. But hopefully by then they will have the drive be additional storage and not just a replacement.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> However right now it's not "extra" storage but it totally replaces the internal drive as the primary. But as Earl mentioned you can easily plug in a 750 gb eSata and get all that extra space without actually cracking the box open and voiding your warranty. If you ever decide you don't need it anymore, unplug/reboot and the internal drive becomes primary again.


Thanks for the quick answer! I misunderstood Earl's earlier answer and thought this was additional storage, not replacement, but like you said, that shouldn't be a problem if you buy a large enough external drive.

I know this is off-topic, but do you lose access to any recordings made on the internal drive after you plug in the external? Do you have to unplug the E-SATA drive to play the leftover internal recordings or is it seamless as far as playback goes?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> But as Earl mentioned you can easily plug in a 750 gb eSata and get all that extra space without actually cracking the box open and voiding your warranty.


Just thought of this - is there actually a warranty issue? Doesn't DirecTV own all HR20s, since they are all now leased?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

"Technically" speaking, yes... you violate your lease agreement if you open it up and replace the internal drive. But other then the sticker on the outside.....

As for the eSATA... nope, the manuals haven't been updated yet to account for it.

And you do lose access to the internal drive.

As bonscott pointed out, it is an "unofficial" feature right now.
They have more work to do it (like linking the two drives, or giving you an option to copy over the content ect..) before making it an "official" feature of the unit.


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## az_double_eagle (Aug 14, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> Thanks to everyone that chimmed in... Here are the results accross the three sites.
> 
> < snip>
> 
> ...


Earl, I just wanted to say thanks for compiling the data. It was very interesting!

The overall purpose of the thread seems to be a bit lost, so I (for one) wanted to thank you for the efforts. I appreciate it.


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## jfischer (Oct 14, 1999)

Given the amount of grief my parents have gone through with their HR20-700, I vote for the HR10-250. 

The HR20-700 is nothing more than an expensive paperweight for them. It rarely records anything they ask it to, and when it does, the show is empty. They absolutely hate the thing and are ready to toss it.

I really wish they could have gotten in on an HR10-250 instead of the HR20-700 that DirecTV sold them.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> So.. Overall.. yes; more people prefer the HR20 then the HR10
> But, as you can see results are very indicative of the audience you are asking.


If you wanted to know which DVR people preferred, why didn't you ask which one they preferred?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

nrc said:


> If you wanted to know which DVR people preferred, why didn't you ask which one they preferred?


He did. Did you not read the first post in this thread?

(Emphasis below is mine.)



ebonovic said:


> I have a friend that has a presentation to do.
> And we where brainstorming on a topic.... at the same time I was on the forums..
> 
> *So we thought it would be a good question to ask.*
> ...


----------



## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

nrc said:


> If you wanted to know which DVR people preferred, why didn't you ask which one they preferred?


Are you just mad that it wasn't a big enough land slide for the HR10? Relax guy, TiVo is still really cool. 

Seriously, it was a silly poll, no different than any of the other non-scientific, statistically meaningless polls we have here. That wouldn't change even if you saw the numbers you wanted to see.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> [...]
> 3) It's the future and only choice for staying with DirecTV.
> [...]


Are you referring to subscribers who will need MPEG4 reception to receive HD locals?

Or are you saying that MPEG2 channels are going to completely disappear in the foreseeable future? If so, why do you think this will be the case? Thx. /steve


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

sluciani said:


> Or are you saying that MPEG2 channels are going to completely disappear in the foreseeable future? If so, why do you think this will be the case? Thx. /steve


DirecTV has already stated: HD-MPEG2 content will be converted to MPEG4.

They have never stated what will happen to SD-MPEG2; but there is zero indication that it will be converted to MPEG-4 anytime remotely soon..
(That would possible require the replacement over over 40 million receivers)


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> DirecTV has already stated: HD-MPEG2 content will be converted to MPEG4.
> ...


Did they put a date on that? I assume everything including SundayTicket HD and DNS HD (West)?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

hiker said:


> Did they put a date on that? I assume everything including SundayTicket HD and DNS HD (West)?


No hard date but if both sat launches are successful next year I'd say mid 2008. They will move as quickly as they can to do this as it will release a LOT of bandwidth on the current KU system which will allow them to add a bunch more SD channels.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

drew2k said:


> He did. Did you not read the first post in this thread?
> 
> (Emphasis below is mine.)


It's funny that you think he did. He asked which people would choose. Given that the HR10 has no future and that many people already have the HR10 and need an HR20 for the future they may _choose_ the HR20 even though they would _prefer_ a TiVo. For example, people responded in this thread that they would choose the HR20 because they already have an HR10. That represents a choice, not a preference.

Yes, it's a silly, meaningless, internet poll. But it was evident from the start that it was being being posed to support a false conclusion. Yes, sooner or later every DirecTV subscriber will likely be stuck with something other than TiVo. That doesn't mean that's their preference.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

You're the only one making or jumping to a false conclusion nrc. It's all you. 

This is not a HR20 vs Tivo thread. 

You fanboy's sure are a sensitive lot aren't you? Do you need to hear that people prefer TiVo? Do you need to see it in writing? What would make you happy nrc?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

hiker said:


> Did they put a date on that? I assume everything including SundayTicket HD and DNS HD (West)?


If I was to guess....
And all the SAT's launch properly..

SundayTicket will be MPEG-4 next year... just my guess.
Most certainly ST-2008 will be.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> If I was to guess....
> And all the SAT's launch properly..
> 
> SundayTicket will be MPEG-4 next year... just my guess.
> Most certainly ST-2008 will be.


Is there HD content included in the regular Sunday Ticket package now or do you mean the Sunday Ticket Superfan package?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Billy66 said:


> You're the only one making or jumping to a false conclusion nrc. It's all you.
> 
> This is not a HR20 vs Tivo thread.
> 
> You fanboy's sure are a sensitive lot aren't you? Do you need to hear that people prefer TiVo? Do you need to see it in writing? What would make you happy nrc?


If it's just me, why worry? But it's not. You know it and Ed knows it and that's why you're here in a TiVo forum trying to defend a giant step backward in DVR functionality over a box that DTV has been deliberately hobbling for years just to try to keep their boxes from looking bad when they eventually arrived.

I was a DirecTV subscriber for years before TiVo existed. There weren't many bigger advocates of DirecTV than me until recent years. But recently every decision DirecTV has made has reduced the quality and value of the service. I'm sure there are still cable systems so heinous that they don't represent a reasonable option over DirecTV, but the number is dwindling.

Unlike the sports addicts who will defend DirecTV to the death while they extract more and more money for less and less value, I don't exclude any future options including DirecTV and the HR20. When my commitment is up next year I'll try the S3 with cable and it's not a better overall experience than DirecTV I'll stick with DirecTV and probably eventualy the HR20. If DirecTV will send me an HR20 with a money back guarantee to try without extending my commitment, I'll be happy to try it out and compare them head to head.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> If I was to guess....
> And all the SAT's launch properly..
> 
> SundayTicket will be MPEG-4 next year... just my guess.
> Most certainly ST-2008 will be.


Were I to bet on it, I would say that Superfan will still be in MPEG2 next year, along with the current MPEG2 HD offerings. Nothing that DirecTV has done recently has gone very smoothly, and I'd imagine they'll be happy to take a bit more time upgrading all customer MPEG2 HD equipment.

Would agree that it will be in MPEG4 by 2008.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

nrc said:


> Is there HD content included in the regular Sunday Ticket package now or do you mean the Sunday Ticket Superfan package?


As far as I know, there is no HD in the base Sunday Ticket.
So it would only be for the Superfan package


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

nrc said:


> If it's just me, why worry? But it's not. You know it and Ed knows it and that's why you're here in a TiVo forum trying to defend a giant step backward in DVR functionality over a box that DTV has been deliberately hobbling for years just to try to keep their boxes from looking bad when they eventually arrived.


I think you are referring to me "Ed"; but it is "Earl"

Anyway: Define "giant step backwards" in DVR functionality.

Other then: Dual Buffers; Moderate/Advanced WishLists; and Suggestions

What can't you do on an HR20, that you can do on a HR10-250? (excluding any 3rd party hacks)

Even then much, what can't you do on a TiVo Series 3 (their latest and greatest)
As compared to an HR20... from a DVR aspect (excluding the "content" source difference)


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> You're the only one making or jumping to a false conclusion nrc. It's all you.
> 
> This is not a HR20 vs Tivo thread.
> 
> You fanboy's sure are a sensitive lot aren't you? Do you need to hear that people prefer TiVo? Do you need to see it in writing? What would make you happy nrc?


Seems that "fanboys" on both sides are a sensitive lot these days.

Me, I've got an HR10 and an HR20. Currently prefer the HR10 (primarily due to dual buffers), but have no major issues with the HR20 in the limited uses to which it has been put.

Neither D* or Tivo are companies that are particularly easy to love these days, IMHO...so I can't say I'm a "fanboy" of either.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bwaldron said:


> Seems that "fanboys" on both sides are a sensitive lot these days.


 +1 :up:

Yeah...I'll say. _Somebody_ might wanna consider decaf. 

Our HR20 has been _fairly_ reliable as well, but as I've said before..._it still misses recordings._ If it was our 'numbah one unit,' I'd probably be screaming bloody murder, but since I have HR10's - no worries.

I too _prefer_ the HR10, but it's gosh darn obvious that I'm gonna hafta switch over within the next year or two. Am I unhappy? Yeah ...heck the wife _despises _ the HR20 and refuses to even _use_ the thing.

But all I can do is hope the D* guys don't drop the ball on this thing (a la R15) and will have the bugs worked out by the time everything is MPEG4.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

nrc said:


> There weren't many bigger advocates of DirecTV than me until recent years. But recently every decision DirecTV has made has reduced the quality and value of the service.


I know I'm going to regret asking this but what exactly have they done to reduce the quality and value of your service? I've been with them since the early to mid 90's and to this day I haven't noticed any negative change at all. They have added locals, then HD locals, then more sats, then dvr's, then HD dvr's. Every time I turn on the TV the picture is there.

I understand that some people are personally offended they are no longer offering Tivo, but frankly that seems like a pretty trivial change in the grand scheme of things. The one you already have should work for at least another year or two and by then it will be obsolete anyway.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

nrc said:


> If it's just me, why worry? But it's not. You know it and Ed knows it and that's why you're here in a TiVo forum trying to defend a giant step backward in DVR functionality over a box that DTV has been deliberately hobbling for years just to try to keep their boxes from looking bad when they eventually arrived.
> 
> I was a DirecTV subscriber for years before TiVo existed. There weren't many bigger advocates of DirecTV than me until recent years. But recently every decision DirecTV has made has reduced the quality and value of the service. I'm sure there are still cable systems so heinous that they don't represent a reasonable option over DirecTV, but the number is dwindling.
> 
> Unlike the sports addicts who will defend DirecTV to the death while they extract more and more money for less and less value, I don't exclude any future options including DirecTV and the HR20. When my commitment is up next year I'll try the S3 with cable and it's not a better overall experience than DirecTV I'll stick with DirecTV and probably eventualy the HR20. If DirecTV will send me an HR20 with a money back guarantee to try without extending my commitment, I'll be happy to try it out and compare them head to head.


You see, you're still doing it. You're turning this thread into something it isn't. It was just a poll that Earl put out. This isn't the end all decision for anyone.

I'm not in this thread recommending or defending the HR20 or suggesting that those with HR10's switch. I never have recommended that others switch.

I do hang around though and remind folks that others are having good experiences elsewhere. Those experiences exist.

nrc, I think you and I agree on many things, but in this thread I don't think we're having the same discussion and frankly I think the reason is that you keep making it mean (or implying that others think it means) something it doesn't. We could have your discusion in another thread I'm sure.

I don't know why *Ed* wanted the poll, but nobody here or anywhere else should take it to mean anything for them. It presumably means something to Ed.

nrc, I have enjoyed my TiVo's. I may have more again. Right now I'm using something else primarily and I'm content with that decision. It's nothing more than that with me.

But I will come around and when people call it a POS, I'll correct that with my experience. When I criticize TiVo the company, or some of the product's features, that will also come from my experience.

I was here with you in 1999 nrc (as user Xaa). I've been with every version of TiVo. I defend the HR20, but you have NEVER seen me trash the HR10 or even say that I think the HR20 is better. Just that I've chosen to use it.

Now I guess this has turned me into an HR20 fanboy. If I have to be a fanboy and I have to pick a side, I will pick to be an HR20 fanboy. Not necessarily for the product just yet, but because that seems like less of an affliction than being a TiVo fanboy.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I know I'm going to regret asking this but what exactly have they done to reduce the quality and value of your service?


The picture quality went to hell in general as they overcompressed things to make room for more channels. They also don't offer their full range of channels with a TiVo, it was the TiVo which brought me to D*, its the TiVo which is taking me away from them.


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

az_double_eagle said:


> Earl, I just wanted to say thanks for compiling the data. It was very interesting!
> 
> The overall purpose of the thread seems to be a bit lost, so I (for one) wanted to thank you for the efforts. I appreciate it.


Ditto.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

btwyx said:


> The picture quality went to hell in general as they overcompressed things to make room for more channels. They also don't offer their full range of channels with a TiVo, it was the TiVo which brought me to D*, its the TiVo which is taking me away from them.


I guess if Tivo was the only reason you called DTV then I can see why you would be unhappy and certainly understand your desire to leave.

A far as Tivo hardware not being able to get all the channels they offer I can't get all the channels they orffer with a Sony A1, B2, etc. The list of obsolete DirecTV hardware is long and varied. If they can't obsolete hardware how do you expect them to grow? Your Tivo is capable of getting every channel today that it got when you bought it. That's the best you can hope for with any piece of hardware.

As far as the overcompressed video stream it may be true but I've never noticed the change. My eyes are not what they used to be and my TV's have gotten progressively better over the years. Oddly enough it is the new post Tivo hardware that will allow them to fix the over compression problem you are unhappy about.

If the FCC didn't enforce outdated local carry policies imagine how many channels we would have available uncompressed today. The FCC was lobbied by the cable companies because they didn't like the competition. So you could make a case for the cause of the over compression being the cable company that you are turning to for relief.


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

Sir_whinealot said:


> Our HR20 has been _fairly_ reliable as well, but as I've said before..._it still misses recordings._ If it was our 'numbah one unit,' I'd probably be screaming bloody murder
> 
> I too _prefer_ the HR10, but it's gosh darn obvious that I'm gonna hafta switch over within the next year or two. Am I unhappy? Yeah ...heck the wife _despises _ the HR20 and refuses to even _use_ the thing.


This scares the beejesus outa me. I just plain hate the idea of misses recordings.
If I have to go thru the trouble of teaching the wife a new interface, the unit had better be at least 99.9% reliable at recording our stuff.

What reiliability rating would you give your HR20?


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Other then: Dual Buffers; Moderate/Advanced WishLists; and Suggestions
> 
> What can't you do on an HR20, that you can do on a HR10-250?


The only thing that comes to mind for me is having more that 2 remote control addresses. AFAIK, this is still a limitation on the HR20, but I have not been keeping up on the HR20. I am not trying to imply this is any huge step backwards, but it would make things grumpy for some of us.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

chris_h said:


> The only thing that comes to mind for me is having more that 2 remote control addresses. AFAIK, this is still a limitation on the HR20, but I have not been keeping up on the HR20. I am not trying to imply this is any huge step backwards, but it would make things grumpy for some of us.


That is the case for IR, but not for RF...
The RF is based of the last 6 digits of the RID; so in theory... you have 10^6 combinations.

Now they just need to release a remote, that will allow you setup such a combination.

If you are getting up past two HR20's in the same room....
I would say you are a candidate for the eventual Home Media Center If/When it is available.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

chris_h said:


> This scares the beejesus outa me. I just plain hate the idea of misses recordings.
> If I have to go thru the trouble of teaching the wife a new interface, the unit had better be at least 99.9% reliable at recording our stuff.
> 
> What reiliability rating would you give your HR20?


I'd say 99% for me, but I think less than that for the Good Sir Whinealot. Others might report perfection, and others still report less reliability than SWA is experiencing.

You may want to wait given your stated needs especially if you are happy with your current solution.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

chris_h said:


> This scares the beejesus outa me. I just plain hate the idea of misses recordings.
> If I have to go thru the trouble of teaching the wife a new interface, the unit had better be at least 99.9% reliable at recording our stuff.
> 
> What reiliability rating would you give your HR20?


Reliability has certainly gone up since I've gotten it (and this is our 3rd unit), but I'd say it records about 80% of scheduled series-links (season passes).

Others have had much better luck with their units...like Billy and Ed...while others haven't.

I agree with Billy ....I'd wait a little while. Or do what I did, and pick one up to try it and get used to it, while utilizing your HR10(s). If you find it records perfectly, then you can decide what you want to do.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

HiDefGator said:


> I know I'm going to regret asking this but what exactly have they done to reduce the quality and value of your service? I've been with them since the early to mid 90's and to this day I haven't noticed any negative change at all. They have added locals, then HD locals, then more sats, then dvr's, then HD dvr's. Every time I turn on the TV the picture is there.


Like I said, I was a fan of the service for years. They were a great value for a long time. Over the last few years a lot of the reasons I originally chose DirecTV (and at the time USSB  ) as my programming provider have gone by the boards. Now we have:

Channels that are compressed into a low contrast, pixelized mess
HDlite
Giant, ugly dishes
Bundles of cables running to every receiver
Dropping Music Choice
Poor HD lineup
Higher Sunday Ticket prices for fewer games
Charging extra for HD Sunday Ticket games.
Dropping CE supplied recievers
Leased equipment
Annual commitments
Dropping TiVo


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> That is the case for IR, but not for RF...
> The RF is based of the last 6 digits of the RID; so in theory... you have 10^6 combinations.
> 
> Now they just need to release a remote, that will allow you setup such a combination.
> ...


I currently have 3 DirecTiVo receivers in the same AV rack, so I would need this unreleased RF remote to keep my current setup, but I'm still hoping DirecTV will simply allow multiple IR addresses for the remotes, like many other CE devices allow.

If I have to go HMC if/when it's available, any idea if that will be the same interface as the HR20 or will it be yet again a new interface?


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> If you are getting up past two HR20's in the same room....
> I would say you are a candidate for the eventual Home Media Center If/When it is available.


They would not all be in the same room, it is more of the IR extender capability that I need. I have not seen anything regarding the HMC that leads me to believe it will be available any time soon, but I have not been looking.


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

Thanks to all that chimed in with their HR20 reliability estimates. I think I will stay with my HR10s for now, as has been suggested. I was not really looking to change anyways. Perhaps when the HD-pack is available with full resolution via mpeg4, I will reconsider. 

Earl, 
Any word on an ETA for that step? I am guessing this would require the two new birds to be up and running, but it is just a guess.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

drew2k said:


> I currently have 3 DirecTiVo receivers in the same AV rack, so I would need this unreleased RF remote to keep my current setup, but I'm still hoping DirecTV will simply allow multiple IR addresses for the remotes, like many other CE devices allow.
> 
> If I have to go HMC if/when it's available, any idea if that will be the same interface as the HR20 or will it be yet again a new interface?


HMC information is extremely sparse. 
I can't see it having a drastically different interface... but I really have no idea about the HMC.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

chris_h said:


> Earl,
> Any word on an ETA for that step? I am guessing this would require the two new birds to be up and running, but it is just a guess.


I wouldn't even consider expecting it till at least the first SAT is launched.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> HMC information is extremely sparse.
> I can't see it having a drastically different interface... but I really have no idea about the HMC.


Thanks Earl. I kind of guessed information wouldn't be readily available, but since it's taking so long to come to market, it'd be great if DirecTV was putting all their might into designing an HMC solution that is a culmination of all that is great of all the DVRs that came before it ...


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> Your Tivo is capable of getting every channel today that it got when you bought it.


That's not going to be true for long (with the MPEG-2 HDs going away), so I'm getting out now.

Also if I consider the channels I could receive when I got it was "All HD Channels", that's no longer true either. And that's the way I perceive it.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

chris_h said:


> This scares the beejesus outa me. I just plain hate the idea of misses recordings.
> If I have to go thru the trouble of teaching the wife a new interface, the unit had better be at least 99.9% reliable at recording our stuff.
> 
> What reiliability rating would you give your HR20?


I'd say 99%+ for me. I've only missed one recording over 4 months of use.

As others have said, either wait or get an HR20 but *don't* get rid of your Tivo receivers. I've always recommended to use both so that you can 1) get used to the HR20 and 2) have the Tivo provide backup recordings just in case you have problems. I still have my DirecTivo recording the same recordings as on the HR20 but luckily I haven't needed that kind of backup.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> As others have said, either wait or get an HR20 but *don't* get rid of your Tivo receivers.


That violates a cruicial aspect of WAF for me, there's only supposed to be one blinking box. I also like having everything in one box as well.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

btwyx said:


> That violates a cruicial aspect of WAF for me, there's only supposed to be one blinking box. I also like having everything in one box as well.


LOL. Main reason why I love my wife. I have no real WAF. In our TV theater we have an HR20, DirecTivo and an old E-86 along with DVD player, VCR  and A/V receiver. And she has her own Tivo in her den. She loves this stuff as much as I do. Ahhhh, geeks in love....


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> LOL. Main reason why I love my wife. I have no real WAF. In our TV theater we have an HR20, DirecTivo and an old E-86 along with DVD player, VCR  and A/V receiver. And she has her own Tivo in her den. She loves this stuff as much as I do. Ahhhh, geeks in love....


Well, I don't have a wife that loves this stuff as much as I do, but other than that I can match you and throw in a lazer disc player, so there!


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

chris_h said:


> Well, I don't have a wife that loves this stuff as much as I do, but other than that I can match you and throw in a lazer disc player, so there!


I declare you the winner! Now if only you had a betamax...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> I declare you the winner! Now if only you had a betamax...


I have one.... two actually


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## jfischer (Oct 14, 1999)

chris_h said:


> This scares the beejesus outa me. I just plain hate the idea of misses recordings.
> If I have to go thru the trouble of teaching the wife a new interface, the unit had better be at least 99.9% reliable at recording our stuff.
> 
> What reiliability rating would you give your HR20?


While I think the interface and overall usability of the HR20 is fine (and in many ways it's superior to the HR10 IMHO), the unreliability of recordings keeps me from "upgrading" right now from my perfectly good HR10.

My parents' HR20 will work reasonably well for about a week, then just starts not recording shows, or the shows are in the recorded list but don't play when selected. A reboot of the box tends to clear things up again for another week or so, but it doesn't bring back the failed recordings. They've gotten into the habit of rebooting it every 4-5 days just to ensure somewhat reliable recording.

I hope that an eventual software upgrade will resolve the issue...


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> I have one.... two actually


I never had any betamax units. Good that I got declared the winner early!


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

Someone broke in my van ( long tiime ago) and stole my betamax and tv, but I still have an 8 track player under my laser disc player hidden away in my basement. I even have one of those things that requires a diamond stylus .

We need a poll on who has the most different electronic components. I know I can rival the local radio shack in cables alone.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

What's an 8 track... 

It is almost like when my son is going to ask me... "whats a cassette"... both video and audio.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

Speaking of dormant tape formats, I was helping my Dad clean out the attic last week and I ran across a huge old Sony vcr looking thing. It was a U-Matic! I think my dad was the first in line to get every new tech that came out.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

kbohip said:


> U-Matic!


I thought that was a pro broadcast format. A quick trip to Wikipedia mentions that U-matic was the first cassette format introduced in 1969, and a high band version was introduced in 1980 which was the pro format.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

btwyx said:


> I thought that (U-Matic) was a pro broadcast format. A quick trip to Wikipedia mentions that U-matic was the first cassette format introduced in 1969, and a high band version was introduced in 1980 which was the pro format.


1969? No. The first 3/4" U-Matic I remember seeing (and immediately bought) was in late 1971. The VO-1600. It was very strange. Clearly a consumer unit, with a built-in tuner, RF in addition to composite output, and a recording timer (external option), but marketed through Sony's industrial/professional video division and the format caught on there. U-Matic was a mainstay of local TV news operations for years and marked the first real abandonment of film. I still have some shows I time shifted on the VO-1600 that I haven't had a chance to watch yet. And people wonder why I'm still on season #2 of 24. Too much to see, not enought time. Not to mention EIAJ-2 tapes earlier, and EIAJ-1 tapes from before that that I probably never will watch because I doubt there are more than a few operating EIAJ-1 units still in existence.

Betamax (scaled down 3/4") came out very soon therafter and of course VHS soon after that and the rest is consumer history.

Beta SP was really the professional successor to the original 3/4 U-Matic. High-band 3/4 was never really a factor. Most stations went directly from the original U-Matic to Beta SP.


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