# OTA only Tivo on the way



## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

Looks like there will be a Tivo for OTA only. Limited edition.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/25/tivo-roamio-ota-dvr/

http://www.tivo.com/discover/antenna


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

For only $49 and with 4 tuners, you could use this a time shift device and not pay for the service. I am wondering if it would support standard definition TVs for those still living in the dark ages.


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## drebbe (Apr 11, 2012)

Simple, Brilliant and Legal -- TiVo Launches Over-the-Air DVR

With a Plethora of Popular TV Available Over the Air, TiVo Offering the $49.99 TiVo Roamio OTA

SAN JOSE, CA -- (Marketwired) -- 08/25/14 -- TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO), a leader in the advanced television entertainment market, today revealed the limited edition TiVo Roamio OTA DVR with an initial retail price of $49.99, for those who do not have cable or satellite service, yet still want a DVR.

"Many top TV shows in America are available with a simple HD antenna," said TiVo CMO Ira Bahr. "TiVo is devoted to making the best possible cable TV user experience available through our operator partners and in retail, but we recognize some viewers opt not to receive the benefits a subscription with a cable provider offers. TiVo Roamio OTA makes sure that they too can get a best in class DVR experience through an antenna, including our world renowned interface

TiVo Roamio OTA enables consumers to record up to four shows simultaneously, storing 75 high-definition hours of programming. The new antenna DVR and streaming device allows consumers to enjoy and record entertainment from their favorite local networks, where available, including ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS and Univision over-the-air and popular internet video services such as Netflix, YouTube, and many others.

TV lovers can expect the same great award-winning experience as the TiVo Roamio family of DVRs, including universal search, free mobile applications, browse and compatibility with TiVo Stream and TiVo Mini devices to extend the TV experience throughout the home and beyond. TiVo Roamio OTA does not require a cable card, providing consumers with a top-notch entertainment experience at a minimal price. For customers looking to access cable channels, TiVo offers the TiVo Roamio, TiVo Roamio Plus and TiVo Roamio Pro devices.

TiVo Roamio OTA Features Include:

-- Storage: 500 GB (75 HD hours)
-- Tuners: 4 tuners
-- Compatible with TiVo Stream: Stream live and recorded TV to smartphones and tablets
-- Content navigation:
-- Universal search across Over-the-Air and popular internet video services including Netflix and YouTube
-- "What to Watch" provides a personalized dashboard with recommendations for what's on now, next and tonight
-- Collections offers editorial collections based on current events or categories including new fall TV, Shark Week, Holiday, Academy Award winners, etc.
-- Channel guide with filters to enable users to get to what they want as quickly as possible
-- Free application for smartphones and tablets: manage your DVR with your phone or tablet through remote Season Pass(R) management, a recording scheduler that allows you to add or remove recordings and enhanced WishList(R) management
-- Networking: Ethernet & WiFi networking

Pricing & Availability
TiVo Roamio OTA, tailored solely for the best over-the-air experience, will appear at select BestBuy stores. The limited product release will be offered in select markets for $49.99, with a $14.99 per month service and a one-year commitment. Product and service pricing subject to change. For more information please visit TiVo.com/Roamio-OTA.


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

Doesn't support using TiVo Mini, though.


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## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

TiVo'Brien said:


> Doesn't support using TiVo Mini, though.


The Tivo page indicates it does. I think they (Engadget) meant to say no MOCA bridge included.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Looks as if with this pricing, you can't get the Product Lifetime, at least not for the first year.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

The whole point of cutting the cord is to eliminate monthly fees. If they were to put the retail price at $100 and offer an OTA-only lifetime for $300 this just might become a hot cake.


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

dave13077 said:


> The Tivo page indicates it does. I think they (Engadget) meant to say no MOCA bridge included.


Okay, sounding better, then.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

"Offered in select markets" = so as not to directly compete with TiVo cable partnerships.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

series5orpremier said:


> The whole point of cutting the cord is to eliminate monthly fees.


Not true. Many many cord cutters supplement with Netflix/Hulu Plus/ect. It is to minimize fees, to be sure, but not necessarily eliminate. Especially for those who are tempted to utilize a DVR.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

$15/month is not a fair price for an OTA only program guide... It's clearly subsidizing the hardware and is half the cost of what a basic cable subscription used to be. Adjusting the OTA pricing model to make any monthly fee no more than $10 would be the appropriate way to go.


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## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

series5orpremier said:


> "Offered in select markets" = so as not to directly compete with TiVo cable partnerships.


My guess is that it will only be available at the Best Buy Magnolia stores, hence limited markets.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

series5orpremier said:


> $15/month is not a fair price for an OTA only program guide... It's clearly subsidizing the hardware


The TiVo service has never been about the cost of the "Program Guide".

You're paying for the TiVo service, whether it is for OTA, or Cable.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

series5orpremier said:


> $15/month is not a fair price for an OTA only program guide... It's clearly subsidizing the hardware and is half the cost of what a basic cable subscription used to be. Adjusting the OTA pricing model to make any monthly fee no more than $10 would be the appropriate way to go.


How would they make up the subsidy for the box itself if not charging enough in the monthly fees to cover the subsidy? That makes no sense.

My advice, if you think it costs too much, don't buy it.


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## bill875 (Dec 3, 2003)

dave13077 said:


> My guess is that it will only be available at the Best Buy Magnolia stores, hence limited markets.


Which is really crazy, considering many of the smaller market Best Buy stores do NOT have Magnolia inside. There are plenty of folks in markets such as mine (Hickory, NC) that would consider this TiVo if BestBuy or even Walmart had a proper display explaining what it does and the benefits of it. I think a price point of $149, then $9.95 a month would be much easier to stomach for some folks.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Reading the Engadget comments underscores why you don't see OTA built into the higher-end, expensive Roamios. They get a subsidized $50 box and still whine like children that service and guide data isn't free.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

no lifetime service available for this? im out.

http://www.cnet.com/products/tivo-roamio-ota/



> The catch? You still have to pay the same $15/month TiVo service fee--and there's no "lifetime" option.


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## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

Aero 1 said:


> no lifetime service available for this? im out.
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/products/tivo-roamio-ota/


I am thinking this (continuous service fees) will be there focus going forward. The pencil pushers at Tivo would much rather see fee revenue every month instead of a one time payment (I know they spread the lifetime fee over a few years). Would not surprise me to see the lifetime option go away altogether at some point.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

replaytv said:


> For only $49 and with 4 tuners, you could use this a time shift device and not pay for the service. I am wondering if it would support standard definition TVs for those still living in the dark ages.


If you're happy with time-shifting only up to 30 mins., sure. You can't record anything without service so all you have are the live TV buffers.

Good price though, and we know all the usual whiners will come out railing about service costing extra.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

SullyND said:


> The TiVo service has never been about the cost of the "Program Guide".


Tivo service and the program guide are so directly correlated to be one and the same. If you want something other than a gradually eroding retail customer base you have to price according to the relative value the individual subscriber is receiving, not according to some elitist value placed on a trademark logo or what value Roamio Pro customers are receiving.



SullyND said:


> You're paying for the TiVo service, whether it is for OTA, or Cable.


It's "never been about" the program guide whether OTA or cable? Not true. I've seen reports of Tivo offering reduced monthly rates for OTA-only users.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

jrtroo said:


> How would they make up the subsidy for the box itself if not charging enough in the monthly fees to cover the subsidy? That makes no sense.
> 
> My advice, if you think it costs too much, don't buy it.


If you read the entire thread, or just my post previous to the one you quoted, you'd see I suggested raising the retail price of the box and offering lifetime service.

My advice to anybody is why bother buying a Roamio OTA when a Roamio Basic costs less?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

series5orpremier said:


> Tivo service and the program guide are so directly correlated to be one and the same.


Sure, in your head, just not in reality.



series5orpremier said:


> It's "never been about" the program guide? Not true. I've seen reports of Tivo offering reduced monthly rates for OTA-only users.


Sure, what does that have to do with the guide? Was the hardware discounted at that time?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

So I guess this is a base Roamio with the CableCard socket removed? It'll be interesting to see if there are any other differences.

Kinda surprising that it's a Best Buy exclusive. I've noticed the TiVo presence dwindling at my local Best Buy the last few times I've been there.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

wmcbrine said:


> So I guess this is a base Roamio with the CableCard socket removed? It'll be interesting to see if there are any other differences.
> 
> Kinda surprising that it's a Best Buy exclusive. I've noticed the TiVo presence dwindling at my local Best Buy the last few times I've been there.


They can save even more costs than just removing the cablecard slot. They don't have to have QAM tuners either.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Two threads on this topic now... But I still think the pricing is going to be a problem for TiVo on this.

You can buy the TiVo Basic with lifetime service for $700 and the cost will be offset in 36 months and the device will still have significant resale value and more flexibility if you change your mind in the future. But I can see people with a short view finding the $50 initial purchase price appealing.

The OTA community is going to be a very hard place for TiVo to make a profit - but if they are going to try, they will need a pricing strategy that seems like a bargain compared to a full TiVo.

Maybe...

TiVo Basic: $200 / Service $15 / Lifetime $500
TiVo OTA: $150 / Service $12 / Lifetime $400


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

SullyND, You mean I'm not factoring in the great customer service value provided by the Tivo.com web ordering system that operates like it arrived in a time capsule from 1993? Shame on me.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

$15/month in perpetuity? Ouch.

Do hi-end cord cutters exist? 

Why not do $15/month for ~2 years to make a profit on the hardware and then $5/mo for updates, guide data and Tivo tax. And give the thing a chance out of the gate.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

bradleys said:


> Two threads on this topic now... But I still think the pricing is going to be a problem for TiVo on this.


I assume you're referring to the OTA DVR comparison thread as being the other one, which started well before this DVR was announced. I linked this thread into that one as it had a direct bearing on the discussion.

Personally, I'm all for just grabbing an inexpensive ATSC tuner and sticking it in any available Windows 7 or 8 PC and using Windows Media Center to record your OTA shows. There's no fee for the service and guide data is free. Of course, features may not be as sophisticated as Tivo's in some areas, but it does the job quite nicely. I've been recording OTA programs this way for about 7 or 8 years now (I used BeyondTV in Windows XP prior to switching to Windows 7) and it works great.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

series5orpremier said:


> $15/month is not a fair price for an OTA only program guide... It's clearly subsidizing the hardware and is half the cost of what a basic cable subscription used to be. Adjusting the OTA pricing model to make any monthly fee no more than $10 would be the appropriate way to go.


Exactly, what in the world is TiVo thinking? Paying a fee for a guide when there are hundreds of channels is understandable but with OTA we are talking about perhaps 20 channels in a perfect area to perhaps 4 in areas were coverage isn't good.

$15 is excessive, a better idea would be to charge by the number of channels available OTA in a subscribers area with the TiVo reporting back nightly to audit the number of channels available. A prorated plan of say 25 cents per channel (with a channel qualified being a available if it is received at certain signal levels) would be a successful business plan.

Regardless what additional services are provided, the general consumer is only going to see that TiVo wants $15 a month for guide date on a dozen OTA channels. This will not work.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

eboydog said:


> ... a better idea would be to charge by the number of channels available OTA in a subscribers area with the TiVo reporting back nightly to audit the number of channels available. A prorated plan of say 25 cents per channel (with a channel qualified being a available if it is received at certain signal levels) would be a successful business plan.
> 
> Regardless what additional services are provided, the general consumer is only going to see that TiVo wants $15 a month for guide date on a dozen OTA channels. This will not work.


Charging a guide fee based on the number of channels available is ludicrous....it changes almost monthly if not more often. An overnight audit simply won't happen. And, depending on your antenna and its location you could be getting twice the number of OTA channels as your neighbor. Just because it has a certain signal level doesn't mean I should be charged for it if I don't receive it.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> Charging a guide fee based on the number of channels available is ludicrous....it changes almost monthly if not more often. An overnight audit simply won't happen. And, depending on your antenna and its location you could be getting twice the number of OTA channels as your neighbor.


Perhaps and I was just throwing that idea out as its still better than $15 a month.

With that monthly fee, this product will not get out the door.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

People said that when there was the $20/month offer with no money down boxes a few years ago (or was it $24?). Plenty of folks jumped on that offer quickly. This is just another pilot pricing model to see how it is picked up by the public.


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## Vesper (Dec 19, 2001)

I'm in the process of cord cutting, so I am very curious about this box. I'm really hoping they have reduced pricing for service compared to the others.


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## rhroyse (Sep 10, 2007)

My two drachmas:

1. $15 a month is a barely tolerable option, but there needs to be a lifetime offer also.

2. It is still unclear (to me) if it is interoperable with other units in the home. I miss having multiple OTA tuners at times, and to be unable to stream and/or transfer shows from this new OTA unit to other Tivo units in my home (Elite, Premiere, etc) would definitely make this a non-starter for me. The wife uses a Mini while on the treadmill, and pulls content from various other units in the house. For her, it has to be a bulletproof and seamless solution. 

For me personally, considering that literally all of OTA equals commercials, I am more inclined to continue pursuit of a custom solution from a Windows Media Center or Media Portal farm that I can run the content through comskip with. I realize I am hardly the mass market Tivo is aiming for with a device like this, but a good many Tivo zealots are also quite technically inclined.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

JosephB said:


> They can save even more costs than just removing the cablecard slot. They don't have to have QAM tuners either.


The CC slot probably isn't there, but other than that, it's probably the same board. Cheaper to do that, and they avoid the cost of CableLabs licensing in the process.

Still, given the market, I predict that this is going to be a big flop. TiVo is a cable DVR. Although it's good to see that TiVo is committed to the retail market, as some would argue that the Roamio Plus/Pro/T6 platform was made for Suddenlink and RCN, not retail...


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

If they priced to the market with a one-time up front cost it would be a success - they could sell millions of units and make hundreds of millions of profit over the next five years. 

But with this pricing TiVo has instead chosen to act like one of those payday loan companies John Oliver recently reported on and gouge the few people on welfare whom they can convince to buy one. Then after the one year commitment is up those will become unsubscribed boxes because even for free they're not worth $15/month in perpetuity.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I think you over estimate the market for this product...


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I think if you put a good product out there at a good price the market has substantial room for growth.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I would love to see a study on cord cutters - income brackets, age group, household size, access to broadband, etc...

My gut feel is that the bulk of the cord cutters are either lower income or young and single. I also suspect that a high percentage that do not have cable may also lack broadband internet - an absolute must for TiVo.

I have known a few middle income families that are OTA only, but definitely not enough of a market to pay the bills.

This is an interesting graph -but really doesn't tell the whole story...










As of February, 2014 - 91% of people between ages of 18 and 49 have some type of "cord" based television.

Conversely, 9% don't have any cord based television - That might seem like a decent population to market too, until you factor in that the US Poverty rate is sitting at 15%. See what I mean?


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## Vesper (Dec 19, 2001)

I'm in the market for this and I'm not middle/lower-income. I'm just tired of spending $110 a month on TV. I see going OTA as a money saving method. I can DVR network shows, and get many of the rest on Amazon/Hulu. I've talked to many peers doing the same thing - cutting out subscription TV because they watch most of their stuff on streaming anyway.

I'd probably think differently if I cared about sports (ESPN, etc) but I don't.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Vesper said:


> I'm in the market for this and I'm not middle/lower-income. I'm just tired of spending $110 a month on TV. I see going OTA as a money saving method. I can DVR network shows, and get many of the rest on Amazon/Hulu. I've talked to many peers doing the same thing - cutting out subscription TV because they watch most of their stuff on streaming anyway.
> 
> I'd probably think differently if I cared about sports (ESPN, etc) but I don't.


And I know another family exactly like you... One

Do they exist? Yep, you guys sure do! 
Are they enough to create a market from? Maybe, I just do not know enough to make that call...

Just my assumptions.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

FWIW, according to the below article, ~30% of Tivo users are OTA-only. Somewhat surprising if true. So, it's not an insignificant chunk of their userbase. But I think they can do much better to get more new OTA customers. IMO their status quo mostly only helps retain and monetize existing users.

http://www.fastcompany.com/3034724/tivo-roamio-ota


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Vesper said:


> I'm in the market for this and I'm not middle/lower-income. I'm just tired of spending $110 a month on TV. I see going OTA as a money saving method. I can DVR network shows, and get many of the rest on Amazon/Hulu. I've talked to many peers doing the same thing - cutting out subscription TV because they watch most of their stuff on streaming anyway.
> 
> I'd probably think differently if I cared about sports (ESPN, etc) but I don't.


If you are really paying $110 just for the tv portion of your cable bill why not cut back to a lesser package? Roughly $50 per month will get you a package with the major non-premium cable channels.


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## spaldingclan (Aug 22, 2012)

bradleys said:


> And I know another family exactly like you... One
> 
> Do they exist? Yep, you guys sure do!
> Are they enough to create a market from? Maybe, I just do not know enough to make that call...
> ...


I'm one of those families and I know at least 5 of my friends who are all Upper middle class (household income of at least 80k) who cut the cord because even they think spending $150.month for TV is crazy


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Obviously TiVo thinks there is some market for this product, otherwise they wouldn't have created the product. I just think the OTA crowed think they have more of a market presence then what is reality today. 

We know Cable has a large market segment and it cannot drive high enough volume for thinner margins that would equate to lower prices. If a cable based TiVo cannot drive those kind of margins, It is probable that the niche OTA market wouldn't fair any better.

Frankly, I would not recommend this device for my OTA friends - it is too expensive and too limiting. I would push them to the TiVo basic with lifetime.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

spaldingclan said:


> I'm one of those families and I know at least 5 of my friends who are all Upper middle class (household income of at least 80k) who cut the cord because even they think spending $150.month for TV is crazy


That is why you get a ~$50/mo tv package. What I noticed is every cord cutter post quotes only the most expensive cable tv packages. I never understood this.

I never understood how the same person who pays for such an expensive cable tv package is the same person who then is perfectly happy with OTA and Netflix.


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## Vesper (Dec 19, 2001)

In my case, I'm about to get a new roof and having to remount the dish (DirecTV) has pushed me over the edge to try out OTA for cost savings. I think I might get the regular Roamio so I can get cable if I end up not liking the OTA setup.

As an aside: Has the tuning adapter thing gotten easier since TivoHD? Back then it was problematic at times.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

bradleys said:


> I would love to see a study on cord cutters - income brackets, age group, household size, access to broadband, etc...
> 
> My gut feel is that the bulk of the cord cutters are either lower income or young and single. I also suspect that a high percentage that do not have cable may also lack broadband internet - an absolute must for TiVo.


I don't know allot of people without cable/satellite but here are the ones I do know:


My Brother's family $100,000+ - mid 50s - has broadband
My Sister's family: $120,000+ - early 50's - has broadband
My Self; $80,000+ - late 50's - have broadband
A friend at work had to switch from OTA to lifeline basic (no STB just locals) due to reception issues - $100,000+ mid 50's - has broadband



bradleys said:


> I have known a few middle income families that are OTA only, but definitely not enough of a market to pay the bills.


Many companies sell products that wouldn't support a company on there own or be viable on there own (a good example is the auto industry). Nothing different here, OTA DVRs are just part of a product line and while they might not be viable if they were the only product being developed/sold are viable via shared development & marketing costs.


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

bradleys said:


> Obviously TiVo thinks there is some market for this product, otherwise they wouldn't have created the product. I just think the OTA crowed think they have more of a market presence then what is reality today.


I think you underestimate why people cut the cord in the first place and go OTA.

We are a $150k+ household (in our early 40s) and are Tivo OTA only (barely even watch it) with 99% of our viewing coming from Netflix or Amazon Instant Prime via a Roku 3. The only reason I even have the Tivo Premiere is because I got in on the $99 lifetime upgrade. I was ready to ditch OTA all together and just use my TV tuner for the rare times I actually needed to watch something live. With Plex on my PC and the Plex channel on my Roku, I can get almost all network shows that I need via free streaming. The Tivo is just a backup now.

Netflix now has more subscribers than HBO. At some point, there will be people who realize they don't need the cable subscription anymore and will switch to Amazon Instant Prime which now carries HBO shows. Sure, they might be older shows or a season or two behind, but that's not a problem for a lot of people if it saves them some money.

Yes, we could cut to a "basic" cable package for $50 a month, but we still wouldn't watch any of the trash on cable TV. We cut it not only for cost, but because we don't really like or watch most things on cable TV. I don't want to pay for or subsidize channels that I will never, ever watch. Before we cancelled DirecTV, I looked on my Tivo to see which shows were being recorded. Only one was a subscription channel and was a kids show. Going to a lower package wouldn't have changed that and would have been a waste of money.

The only thing I miss is sports, but you can't really get most of the sports channels on a basic cable package. You need to upgrade a few levels to get everything you need (i.e. Pac 12 network, all ESPN channels, all Fox Sports). My solution? I go to a relative's house who springs for cable or DirecTV and watch the games there with them. It's only a few times a year and is actually nice going out to be social and watch the game with family.

I was surprised to see that Tivo released this product. I thought, good for them, until I read that it was $15 a month, for life. That's just idiotic in my mind. We'll see how many people are happy paying that amount for guide data. And for those that say you pay for more than just guide data, show me another normal consumer products company where I buy their product and have to pay monthly for software updates. Microsoft or HP don't charge me for Windows, Office, or driver updates. Neither does my mobile phone manufacturer or Roku.

Bryan


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## Vesper (Dec 19, 2001)

As an aside, did they actually announce that it's $15 a month? All I saw is a link to the generic Service Plan page.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> So I guess this is a base Roamio with the CableCard socket removed? It'll be interesting to see if there are any other differences.
> 
> Kinda surprising that it's a Best Buy exclusive. I've noticed the TiVo presence dwindling at my local Best Buy the last few times I've been there.


I think its a Best Buy only deal as that is one of the few retailers that can initiate the subscription contract at point of sale just like they do for cell phones. IE you won't be able to buy this for $49 without the sub.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> If you are really paying $110 just for the tv portion of your cable bill why not cut back to a lesser package? Roughly $50 per month will get you a package with the major non-premium cable channels.


Comcast has no packages with a cable card that total out to less than $50 all in. Including box/cc rental, outlet fees, HD tech fee, your mother in-law is ugly fee and a few others that try to look like taxes.

We dumped pay tv nearly 10 yrs ago. Other than sports, we don't miss much.


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## Peter G (Jan 3, 2012)

I made a decision to cut the cord about 4 years ago. I have plenty of income but just did not see the value in Cable or Satellite at $100+ per month. Got a Roku and started streaming netflix. Set up an antenna in the attic for off air broadcast stations and upgraded to digital flat screens over a period of about 3 years. Decided to try Tivo when they offered an OTA promo of $10 per month. 

Has been a pretty good experience but Tivo box could be better (off air tuners a re just OK, no Amazon Prime). Point is that I am still happy with $10 monthly service. The Roamio OTA might be a good solution if they offered this same rate.

(Think I paid $99 for first Premiere plus the $10 per month. Since then have upgrade to Roamio as the tuners are somewhat better. $175 for that one).

Regards,

Peter G


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> Comcast has no packages with a cable card that total out to less than $50 all in. Including box/cc rental, outlet fees, HD tech fee, your mother in-law is ugly fee and a few others that try to look like taxes.
> 
> We dumped pay tv nearly 10 yrs ago. Other than sports, we don't miss much.


Who said less than $50? I said roughly $50. In Comcast's case, I see $60 before taxes/fees which might add up to another $10 to the cost. IF I say $70 regular price then that's still a far cry from the $110 to $150 on up that cord cutters like to quote.

And i haven't factored in the discount you get on internet if you carry cable which is usually $5 or so.

Nor have I factored in playing providers off each other. If you're fairly flexible and willling to switch providers every 2 years (assuming you can get at least 1 satellite and 1 cable provider in your area) then you can save substantial amounts of money on your monthly cost.

I will change my roughly $50 figure to roughly $65 figure.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Peter G said:


> I made a decision to cut the cord about 4 years ago. I have plenty of income but just did not see the value in Cable or Satellite at $100+ per month. Got a Roku and started streaming netflix. Set up an antenna in the attic for off air broadcast stations and upgraded to digital flat screens over a period of about 3 years. Decided to try Tivo when they offered an OTA promo of $10 per month.
> 
> Has been a pretty good experience but Tivo box could be better (off air tuners a re just OK, no Amazon Prime). Point is that I am still happy with $10 monthly service. The Roamio OTA might be a good solution if they offered this same rate.
> 
> ...


except you don't have to get a $100/month cable tv package.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

bacevedo said:


> I think you underestimate why people cut the cord in the first place and go OTA.
> 
> We are a $150k+ household (in our early 40s) and are Tivo OTA only (barely even watch it) with 99% of our viewing coming from Netflix or Amazon Instant Prime via a Roku 3. The only reason I even have the Tivo Premiere is because I got in on the $99 lifetime upgrade. I was ready to ditch OTA all together and just use my TV tuner for the rare times I actually needed to watch something live. With Plex on my PC and the Plex channel on my Roku, I can get almost all network shows that I need via free streaming. The Tivo is just a backup now.
> 
> ...


The price at Cox that I think I found in your general area for a regular cable package is $72.99/month regular price. A bit high compared to similar packages in many other areas. Cox's website is so terrible though that you can't see what channels you get from the ordering screen ( at least I couldn't) and the ordering screen packages are named somewhat differently than the channels lineups on the Cox homescreen.

But it appears $73 gets you at least ESPN1&2, FoxSports 1, Fox Sports Arizona, NBC Sports, Pac-12.

You have to add in taxes/fees but subtract internet discount you typically get from carrying tv. Also if you're fairly flexible you can play the cable and satellit companies off each other assuming you could get either and this would save relatively substantial amounts of money on your total cable tv costs.

If you never watched anything on cable tv then sure why get cable tv. I wouldn't get it either. That seemed to be part of what you said above.

And obviously the way the content business works is if you want to wait for your content then you can pay less. That seems like a choice you've made.

HBO content though you have to wait quite long for. The newest HBO stuff on Amazon Prime seems to be 4 yrs old. Alot of non-premium channel cable content seems to make it to Netflix or Amazon Prime in a year or so.

And freeloading off relatives/friends for sports content is an option I guess.

YOu subsidize and pay for lots of content that you don't watch on Netflix and Amazon Prime. SO I'm not sure that is much of an argument for moving from cable tv.

And again I don't get how the person who gets the really expensive cable tv package can be the same person who then turns around and gets by on Netflix!???!??


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

@tivodesign's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/504023673628422144


> No Mini, No Product Lifetime, No MSD. (It's a simple, very affordable product.)


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Aero 1 said:


> @tivodesign's Tweet: No Mini, No Product Lifetime, No MSD. (It's a simple, very affordable product.)


Cute tweet from Tivo but no substance. Roamio OTA is DOA.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

I wonder if it will have a MAK and allow MRV transfers, I would hope they wouldn't remove that too but considering they aren't allowing MSD they aren't mrketing this to those with existing TiVo but seriously, if I was a cord cutter, the reason for such would be to cut not just "cords" but "costs" too and spending $180 a year wouldn't be my view of cutting costs. 

If they wanted to experiment with marketing such a Roamio, they could market the EXISTING base model Roamio that with OTA service subscription would disable digital cable permit OTA only and then require a lower than $15 mostly service fee. Seems that would be cheaper since it appears they already wrote custom software for the OTA, while making a version with stripped out hardware while less hardware components make it cheaper, there has to be some higher overhead to make such a version. 

I'm sure they are excited about this but even the Engadget article indicated this would be limited special edition and hinted that it might not last if it was not successful.

A software limited base Roamio would make better sense especially if it's a trial run, which really as a model for their entire Roamio line wouldn't be a bad idea especially as software companies are employing this model, have a single common hardware box, each box requires a monthly fee, that monthly fee is variable depending on the features you need, cheapest rate would be for OTA only and from there, increases per what the users needs are such as MRV, Mobile Streaming, Mini Streaming, etc with the highest cost monthly package enabljng all features of the TiVo hardware box.

Are they nuts? $15 a month with no Mini support? If they took Mini support I bet they took ethernet networking support out too which would means it's just a standalone OTA DVR that uses WiFi to receive it's guide.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Aero 1 said:


> @tivodesign's Tweet:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/504023673628422144


WOW! Who do they think is going to buy this then? Most people cut the cord to cut costs. Sure they may get some sort of streaming package(s), but $17 for both Netflix and Amazon Prime per month is doable for those people because they're getting entertainment value. But those people are going to balk at paying $15 per month just for guide service. No lifetime for this product and not being able to use other Tivo products with it will kill it for sure.

Maybe they're going to use this as an example to people to show that OTA dvr's aren't profitable for them (i.e. placate their cable partners)? Don't you love conspiracy theories?


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

moedaman said:


> WOW! Who do they think is going to buy this then? Most people cut the cord to cut costs. Sure they may get some sort of streaming package(s), but $17 for both Netflix and Amazon Prime per month is doable for those people because they're getting entertainment value. But those people are going to balk at paying $15 per month just for guide service. No lifetime for this product and not being able to use other Tivo products with it will kill it for sure.
> 
> Maybe they're going to use this as an example to people to show that OTA dvr's aren't profitable for them (i.e. placate their cable partners)? Don't you love conspiracy theories?


And new Roamios made after January 1st of this year don't included Amazon due to them not supporting close captions.... People are reporting there are stickers over the Amazon logo on new boxes!

It's as if they keep taking features away from TiVos. First you had cable companies cracking down on copy restrictions disabling MRV transfers, TiVo Stream only supporting Apple, no Amazon on new boxes and now a premium TiVo with all its features removed that require a $15 monthly fee for on average 5 stations you might receive OTA.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Just a point - TiVo service fee isn't for guide service, it is for TiVo functionality and ongoing support and updates (and to not pay sales taxes on the full price). 

I do agree, without a significant total cost of ownership discount, why would anyone take the functionality hit on this device? Seems like a huge insult to think a low entry fee will fool the consumer...

Maybe TiVo marketing is smarter than me...


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

The lack of Mini support is a little baffling to me. Isn't Mini support entirely software based? If so, then adding that feature has no marginal costs and they will sell more Minis if this DVR has that option. 

And I really don't understand why there is no lifetime option either. The appeal of this OTA DVR will be quite limited.

I think it would have been better for them to keep the Mini support and lifetime option, even if that means setting the retail price at $99.99.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Aero 1 said:


> @tivodesign's Tweet:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/504023673628422144


The shine rubbed off this really quickly. Leave it to Tivo to make something "affordable" and a questionable value at the same time.

I wonder if "no Mini" means no hosting, or no Mini streaming at all?


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## bill875 (Dec 3, 2003)

No Mini, No Lifetime and the monthly price is what is going to kill this product before they even launch it. I suspect there will be some pricing changes as they obviously failed to identify with the money saving mindset of a cord-cutter. It the price point was $200 for the DVR and $7.99 a month for service, I'd consider it. IF it could function with at least two TiVo Minis.

TiVo never ceases to amaze me with their inability to offer the products and services we want at a price that is reasonable.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

It's a Channel Master killer and unlike dvr's that use free guide data sevices that could just disappear, as long as pay your monthly fee you are good. There is a market for this among the techno-phobic.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> Cute tweet from Tivo but no substance. Roamio OTA is DOA.


Agreed, at $15/mo. and with the intentional crippling it is indeed DOA, and I assume that this pricing model will change rather quickly once the market weighs in.

I'm not following why it couldn't be $4-500 with lifetime all-in (as an option), and non-crippled.


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## StevesWeb (Dec 26, 2008)

eboydog said:


> Exactly, what in the world is TiVo thinking? Paying a fee for a guide when there are hundreds of channels is understandable but with OTA we are talking about perhaps 20 channels in a perfect area to perhaps 4 in areas were coverage isn't good.


In Corona, California I'm receiving over 100 digital channels OTA. At least 30 are in English.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm guessing they don't want to grow their subscriber base because it might require them to expand their infrastructure for delivering updates to boxes.

They seem pretty cheap as evidenced by them not wanting to create a functional web ordering system.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

What are you talking about?


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## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

series5orpremier said:


> I'm guessing they don't want to grow their subscriber base because it might require them to expand their infrastructure for delivering updates to boxes.
> 
> They seem pretty cheap as evidenced by them not wanting to create a functional web ordering system.


This is the second time you have complained about the ordering system. It is not something that you have to deal with once you order the equipment. You order and than move on, it is not something you have to deal with on going. If it pains you so much just call. It takes about 7 minutes of your life.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

If only it were that simple. Go read the thread in the Roamio forum about the July flash sale. Being cheap is the nicest thing you can say about it when it's lack of robustness coincidentally could result in TiVo committing criminal fraud.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Agreed, at $15/mo. and with the intentional crippling it is indeed DOA, and I assume that this pricing model will change rather quickly once the market weighs in.
> 
> I'm not following why it couldn't be $4-500 with lifetime all-in (as an option), and non-crippled.


I think $450 with lifetime should be the proper price, modest profit and it would be the best value OTA DVR. As far as why it doesn't have the same functionality as a TiVo Basic, I guess that is the way to justify the premium for the TiVo Basic OTA market.

I don't agree it is DOA as is, it was never intended to reach a mass market, it is competition for Channel Master, Simple.tv, and Tablo and the tiny market they are fighting over. I will pick TiVo every time because the software is just better and more reliable than the competition that comes and goes, usually very quickly.


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## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

series5orpremier said:


> If only it were that simple. Go read the thread in the Roamio forum about the July flash sale. Being cheap is the nicest thing you can say about it when it's lack of robustness coincidentally could result in TiVo committing criminal fraud.


If you think that a company committed "criminal fraud" than don't buy or use their product. Vote with your wallet. If you feel you were not treated fairly during the ordering process than return the product and dispute the charge with your credit card company. It amazes me how something so simple can get people so worked up. Life is too short.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

Chris Gerhard said:


> .....
> I don't agree it is DOA as is, it was never intended to reach a mass market, it is competition for Channel Master, Simple.tv, and Tablo and the tiny market they are fighting over.


I'm a amazed that TiVo would spend any time on a tiny market, except if they think that that market will grow a lot. I know that many people are 'cutting the cord' but I haven't seen anything that it is in numbers enough to spend any money on it. Especially because that market is exactly the market that doesn't seem to want to spend any money on a monthly basis.


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## bayern_fan (Aug 12, 2013)

Why couldn't they make it $100 with a $8-10/month fee or lifetime? I feel they would have many more potential buyers around that price point.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

replaytv said:


> I'm a amazed that TiVo would spend any time on a tiny market, except if they think that that market will grow a lot. I know that many people are 'cutting the cord' but I haven't seen anything that it is in numbers enough to spend any money on it. Especially because that market is exactly the market that doesn't seem to want to spend any money on a monthly basis.


I agree with you on this. "Cord-cutting" should actually be called "cost-cutting". The vast majority of cord-cutters brag about the amount of money they're saving.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

dave13077, 
You'd be better served to read before you type. If you don't like the answer you should cease changing the subject in trolling for explanations. It's just a factual datapoint to add to TiVo's pricing strategy in accessing their mindset. Your mindset could use some work.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I am wondering if TiVo is thinking if they can get none TiVo users into a DVR maybe they can sell them a more expensive one later on. Kinda like having the Civics and Corollas on the car lot that make very little or no profit. But many people come in buy one then later on they move up to a more expensive model. They might be especially looking at people that only watch TV through the internet. Or watch TV not at all.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> Agreed, at $15/mo. and with the intentional crippling it is indeed DOA, and I assume that this pricing model will change rather quickly once the market weighs in.
> 
> I'm not following why it couldn't be $4-500 with lifetime all-in (as an option), and non-crippled.


I agree, I think that would be the sweet spot and a reasonable offering. $100 maybe $150 less than a TiVo basic non-crippled.

We tend to think of total cost in relation to lifetime service - TiVo is marketing this as a very low entry cost. But the crippled nature of it makes no sense!


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## Scopeman (Oct 22, 2002)

replaytv said:


> I'm a amazed that TiVo would spend any time on a tiny market, except if they think that that market will grow a lot. I know that many people are 'cutting the cord' but I haven't seen anything that it is in numbers enough to spend any money on it. Especially because that market is exactly the market that doesn't seem to want to spend any money on a monthly basis.


Remember - Aereo (RIP) had the network firms running to court, and Aereo was a $10/month play to provide nothing more than local OTA DVR, with guide data.

The networks are deathly afraid of reductions in subscriber fees that currently flow back to them from the cable companies - so much so that they black out channels during negotiations, even though they know people could just pop up an antenna. Why? Easy - because people don't just want the channel content, they want it time-delayed and play/pause/skip capable.

They would not have been afraid of Aereo if the per-subscriber revenue loss potential was not high. And that would indicate that there is a demand for this product (and Aereo's pricing scheme would indicate that $10-$15 a month for guide data and four tuners is about right). And the reason that Tivo Mini is not supported, while Tivo Stream *is*, is that it helps replicate the Aereo offering. Aereo was not multi-room, but it was watch-anywhere, any-device.

It is not a surprise to find this offer rejected on a forum populated by folks like me with 10+ years of Tivo time, numerous units, etc. But we're not the target market.

Personally I hope this succeeds, because it will destroy the current 'bundle-and-cram' pricing model of cable if it does. We'll get a la carte pricing a lot faster with devices like this selling in the marketplace.


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## BriHiFi (Jan 16, 2013)

The only consumer I would think this appeals to is the impulse cord cutter. A low upfront cost, only locked in for service for one year and if they don't like it they can return to cable or sat. All for less than what a standard DVR would cost retail. Long-term customers will obviously buy the TiVo basic. Personally, I do better with a higher device price and a lower service fee. The sticker shock of $15 a month for free TV is a bit much. After all how much does it really cost them to provide the service. Not just over the air but cable as well.

I cut the cord with DirecTV 15 years ago. I joined the wonderful world of DVR about 10 years ago. My first DVR was a Sony (@ $600. Retail). It only had one tuner, no TV show offload and the guide was free. It did it's job well until the guide was no longer provided. At the time I thought anyone who is over the air only that bought a TiVo was a sucker to pay a monthly service fee. I purchased a TiVo premiere for $200 with three months free service and nine months at $15 per month. Which was perfect because at that time there were discussions in this community about the upcoming new DVR model eventually named TiVo Romeo and didn't want to pay a lifetime subscription on a soon to be outdated DVR. My TiVo Romeo is a much better DVR than the Sony, it's not even close. At roughly the same cost, TiVo is the best DVR available. I currently have two Romeo basics and a TiVo Stream. As a comparison, I also have a Mac Mini used as an EyeTV DVR which records and converts TV shows to iTunes automatically and then can be streamed to any additional TV using an Apple TV device. There is a TV Guide service fee of $19.99 per year. 

TiVo needs to find a more efficient way of making money. Example: I purchased two brand-new TiVo Premiers for $30 each at Best Buy when the Romeo became available. I wanted to use them as a Mini alternative. I tried to activate service but was not offered the $99 lifetime offer. So now I have two HDMI cables, two spare remotes, power cords and hard drives. I gave TiVo a chance to make money. That being said, I don't think they're going to make any money selling $50 DVR's without mandatory activation at point of sale. At $50 it still makes for a good parts box. TiVo's profits gone, bye-bye. I don't know what they're thinking.

I have had experience installing DirecTV and cable DVR's in the past. DirecTV DVR's are pretty good, not as good as TiVo but pretty good. Cable DVR's suck and are a pain to use in comparison. Now if cable gets a DVR that functions as well as DirecTV's DVR, TiVo could be and trouble. And TiVos' main customer base might end up being cord cutters/over the air users.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

The base Roamio w/ lifetime is already available for around $500 (including the code cost) if you go the 'reseller code' route via ebay.

With this new model Tivo should go back to the old $9.95/month pricing they offered for the 'OTA-only' Premiere.



slowbiscuit said:


> Agreed, at $15/mo. and with the intentional crippling it is indeed DOA, and I assume that this pricing model will change rather quickly once the market weighs in.
> 
> I'm not following why it couldn't be $4-500 with lifetime all-in (as an option), and non-crippled.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

BriHiFi said:


> . That being said, I don't think they're going to make any money selling $50 DVR's without mandatory activation at point of sale. At $50 it still makes for a good parts box. TiVo's profits gone, bye-bye. I don't know what they're thinking.


Have they said whether activation at point of sale will be required?

I will probably buy one just to see what they are like, as I have only experience with Premieres and older boxes. But only if they don't require that I activate at the point of sale. Then I will put it in the garage to watch football live or a maybe a little time shifting while cleaning out the garage, or in the kitchen to watch the news while cooking. Or give it to a friend or sell on craigslist/eBay after I have learned everything I want to know about it.

Tivo has never made much money on me, as I have always had lifetime TiVos, and have bought them used already activated except for one.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

BriHiFi said:


> The sticker shock of $15 a month for free TV is a bit much. After all how much does it really cost them to provide the service. Not just over the air but cable as well.


This is the part people don't get - you are paying over time for the box, NOT just to get guide data. Same thing when you buy that iPhone for $99 upfront then have increased cell bills for 2 years.

Tivo has never been able to get certain folks to understand this.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> This is the part people don't get - you are paying over time for the box, NOT just to get guide data. Same thing when you buy that iPhone for $99 upfront then have increased cell bills for 2 years.
> 
> Tivo has never been able to get certain folks to understand this.


People understand this just fine. The problem is, at $15 per month, you're going to end up paying far more than the box is worth to watch free TV. Tivo needs to drop this to something like $5 per month and charge $100 -150 up front for the box. The monthly fee is simply too high for what's being offered. I think Tivo set this up to fail right out of the gate so they can say that they tried and then wash their hands of anything OTA related.


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## BriHiFi (Jan 16, 2013)

slowbiscuit said:


> This is the part people don't get - you are paying over time for the box, NOT just to get guide data. Same thing when you buy that iPhone for $99 upfront then have increased cell bills for 2 years.
> 
> Tivo has never been able to get certain folks to understand this.


I understand that just fine. I am one that would prefer to pay for the box upfront.

Thanks Mr. Unnatural, you get the point I was trying to make.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> I think Tivo set this up to fail right out of the gate so they can say that they tried and then wash their hands of anything OTA related.


It may well fail, but many joined the "free" premiere offer years ago. They may be running this as a pilot for costing future products. But, I'm pretty sure their investors would not stand for a program designed to fail.


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

If we are buying this at retail and only wanted to pick one up for spare parts for another base roamio... I wonder if we can buy it $49.99 out the door and then just never activate?

Or will BB require you to sign up for the 1-year @ $14.99/month instore?

If you can buy it w/o activation at the point of sale, it could be a lucrative part machine. An extra A/C adapter and extra hard drive immediately come to mind.


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## BriHiFi (Jan 16, 2013)

blacknoi said:


> If we are buying this at retail and only wanted to pick one up for spare parts for another base roamio... I wonder if we can buy it $49.99 out the door and then just never activate?
> 
> Or will BB require you to sign up for the 1-year @ $14.99/month instore?
> 
> If you can buy it w/o activation at the point of sale, it could be a lucrative part machine. An extra A/C adapter and extra hard drive immediately come to mind.


 This is an excellent point. And I share your opinion.

I think TiVo would be more profitable and covered the cost of their products if they offered their current pricing model (subscription based) to their online sales and offer the higher pay one price at Best Buy. I can go to Best Buy right now and buy a TiVo off the shelf without a subscription. TiVo would have to offer some incentives to Best Buy to get them to activate subscriptions at the point-of-sale. That would just cut into their profits. All this for a over the air box. Not a good business plan. I have many changing opinions on the matter and this is just one. Now, I'm only referring to the TiVo OTA product.

Best Buy used to sell DirecTV boxes. This ended up being a poor decision as it didn't make them enough money to cover the time spent to activate them. Best Buy no longer sells direct TV receivers. Now I don't know what the real reasons are but from an outsiders view that would be my take on it. Maybe Best Buy will do a better job at subscription based purchases with TiVo than they did with DirecTV.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

BriHiFi said:


> I understand that just fine. I am one that would prefer to pay for the box upfront.


Sure, but Tivo doesn't see it that way for this box - they WANT the uninformed consumer to buy it because it's cheap, then make all their money on the backend. It's irrelevant whether it makes sense for you, it's not for people here.

No different than how cell phones are sold today, which was my point.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

blacknoi said:


> If we are buying this at retail and only wanted to pick one up for spare parts for another base roamio... I wonder if we can buy it $49.99 out the door and then just never activate?
> 
> Or will BB require you to sign up for the 1-year @ $14.99/month instore?
> 
> If you can buy it w/o activation at the point of sale, it could be a lucrative part machine. An extra A/C adapter and extra hard drive immediately come to mind.


Good idea, but my guess is that at this price it has to be bundled with a year of service.


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## BriHiFi (Jan 16, 2013)

slowbiscuit said:


> Sure, but Tivo doesn't see it that way for this box - they WANT the uninformed consumer to buy it because it's cheap, then make all their money on the backend. It's irrelevant whether it makes sense for you, it's not for people here.
> 
> No different than how cell phones are sold today, which was my point.


I apologize. I wish you had stated TiVo's plans before I gave my viewpoint. I thought this was a discussion board. But apparently you have all the TiVo answers. You should be the first to reply to every post and give TiVos response to the subject. That way everybody has a clear understanding. The use of how cell phones are sold today is an outdated example. I'm not saying your wrong but just outdated. The cell phone companies paradigm has shifted. They would rather you pay for your device, so that they can have competitive prices. If you can't afford a $400-$700 phone out right then they can choose to factor in the price of the phone distributed through monthly payments. And they can blame the high bills on your expensive phone and not their extremely competitive plans. Most new competitive cell phone plans are without contract. I'm not saying that subsidized plans are not available. But, what do I know? You know everything, right? There's no having a conversation with you. You are obviously just one of those last word freaks. If I'm uninformed about that too, then I apologize. Good day to you, sir.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

BriHiFi said:


> ...Best Buy used to sell DirecTV boxes. This ended up being a poor decision as it didn't make them enough money to cover the time spent to activate them. Best Buy no longer sells direct TV receivers. Now I don't know what the real reasons are but from an outsiders view that would be my take on it. Maybe Best Buy will do a better job at subscription based purchases with TiVo than they did with DirecTV.


There are many reasons Best Buy doesn't sell DirecTV anymore. One reason is that the days of doing a self install are long gone. Aligning a multi-focal satellite dish that receives Ka frequencies is sufficiently difficult that it requires a good deal of training and experience (a lot of installers don't do that great a job). But the main reason is that DirecTV wanted to take closer control over their equipment manufacturing and distribution channel (a LOT of access cards were stolen from receivers in Best Buy's inventory). This was also the point at which the RCA, Sony, Samsung, Philips, etc., boxes disappeared and everything was branded "DirecTV" (although RCA and Samsung, among others, still manufacture the receivers). These days about the only 3rd parties selling Dish or DirecTV are agents just selling subscriptions...the satellite company sends out an installer with all the equipment (none is inventoried by the retailer).


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

@BriHiFi - I would recommend the same thing to you as I would to anyone else interested in a premium OTA DVR. Purchase the Roamio Basic with liftetime service - you should be able to get in at about $500 and you will have no future fees.

You can extend that with Mini's if you would like and even add a TiVo stream for more functionality in the future. If you ever decide to subscribe to a lifeline cable or better service, this TiVo can easily transition with you.

This product is marketed for people looking for a low cost entry point, but I think we all agree the long term value isn't there.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Sure, but Tivo doesn't see it that way for this box - they WANT the uninformed consumer to buy it because it's cheap, then make all their money on the backend. It's irrelevant whether it makes sense for you, it's not for people here.
> 
> No different than how cell phones are sold today, which was my point.


For some reason people don't have a problem paying all that money each month to cell phone companies just to save some money initially on a subsidized phone. But in the end they pay alot more just like with the OTA Roamio.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> For some reason people don't have a problem paying all that money each month to cell phone companies just to save some money initially on a subsidized phone. But in the end they pay alot more just like with the OTA Roamio.


With a phone at the end of the two years you own a fully un-subsidized phone and can sell it as a fully un-subsidized phone.

If TiVo offered a Monthly service that eventually converted to lifetime, that would be more of an apples to apples comparison.

If you cannot tell, I consider the TiVo monthly service fee a very bad option for the consumer.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bradleys said:


> With a phone at the end of the two years you own a fully un-subsidized phone and can sell it as a fully un-subsidized phone.
> 
> If TiVo offered a Monthly service that eventually converted to lifetime, that would be more of an apples to apples comparison.
> 
> If you cannot tell, I consider the TiVo monthly service fee a very bad option for the consumer.


But still at the end of that period you paid for the phone a couple times over in addition to cell service. I know with my cell service that is the case. I buy unsubsidized phones because even if I pay $600 for the phone, over a two year period I still save over $1k by purchasing a full price phone. If I buy a used phone I save even more. Of course with the OTA Roamio you could be paying $15 a month forever, or TiVo might offer a lower price deal after the first year. I guess we'll find out in a year what happens.

If TiVo did the same thing and only charged $10 a month it seems like it would be easier to swallow. $10 a month is close enough to the point where alot of people might not mind paying, but $15 is too high for that. I know with my Roamio Basic on a $6.95 a month plan I don't mind paying that amount indefinitely since it is so small. But if TiVo does something stupid and tries to raise it on me, then they will be losing this extra money from me. No idea if they will ever force me to drop the $6.95 rate. I hope not.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> For some reason people don't have a problem paying all that money each month to cell phone companies just to save some money initially on a subsidized phone. But in the end they pay alot more just like with the OTA Roamio.


Yep. I'd like nothing more than to ditch my smart phones, but unfortunately we got used to having them as part of our everyday routine. The $30 per month internet charge is what really gets my goat as neither the wife or I use it all that much. Sadly, if you want a smartphone you have no other option.



bradleys said:


> With a phone at the end of the two years you own a fully un-subsidized phone and can sell it as a fully un-subsidized phone.


Except that the value of the phone is considerably less by the time your initial agreement has expired because newer models have been released and nobody wants to buy old technology.



> If TiVo offered a Monthly service that eventually converted to lifetime, that would be more of an apples to apples comparison.


Absolutely. Without a lifetime option I don't see this DVR surviving in the marketplace.



> If you cannot tell, I consider the TiVo monthly service fee a very bad option for the consumer.


+1. It's the main reason why I ditched Tivo years ago and switched to useing HTPCs with cablecard and ATSC tuners. All of my hardware has paid for itself, including the numerous upgrades I've made over the years, and I still don't have any monthly fees other than the monthly cablecard rental from Verizon.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> Except that the value of the phone is considerably less by the time your initial agreement has expired because newer models have been released and nobody wants to buy old technology.


Resale of an AT&T iPhone 4S is about $200 to $250, so I think the resale value is actually pretty good.



mr.unnatural said:


> Absolutely. Without a lifetime option I don't see this DVR surviving in the marketplace.


Agreed



mr.unnatural said:


> +1. It's the main reason why I ditched Tivo years ago and switched to useing HTPCs with cablecard and ATSC tuners. All of my hardware has paid for itself, including the numerous upgrades I've made over the years, and I still don't have any monthly fees other than the monthly cablecard rental from Verizon.


TiVo Hardware + Lifetime provides you similar option with a lot less effort than a HTPC for "around" the same cost with a pretty decent resale value.

Roamio Pro with lifetime is about $800 - resale for a base Premiere with lifetime is around $350


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## BriHiFi (Jan 16, 2013)

bradleys said:


> @BriHiFi - I would recommend the same thing to you as I would to anyone else interested in a premium OTA DVR. Purchase the Roamio Basic with liftetime service - you should be able to get in at about $500 and you will have no future fees.
> 
> You can extend that with Mini's if you would like and even add a TiVo stream for more functionality in the future. If you ever decide to subscribe to a lifeline cable or better service, this TiVo can easily transition with you.
> 
> This product is marketed for people looking for a low cost entry point, but I think we all agree the long term value isn't there.


Excellent recommendation. I've owned two Romeo basics w/lifetime service and the TiVo stream since they became available at Best Buy. They even had a $50 off promotion. I also switched out the hard drives to 3 TB. I record all the NFL games available with my over the air service. That roughly translates to between 60 and 70 games including pre-and post season. I expect more with the addition of Thursday night football. All on one Romeo with plenty of room to spare. Price wasn't an option for me as I chose another Romeo over the Mini. I definitely agree with your closing statement. Thanks for your reply.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

The new Roamio OTA is not for us, the long-time Tivo users.

It's for those sick of paying $100+/month for cable TV and who still want a DVR, are likely familiar with the Tivo brand, but balk at paying $400 upfront for a ChannelMaster DVR (1TB model).


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Penny wise and pound foolish...


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

bradleys said:


> Penny wise and pound foolish...


Basic inability to do math.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

jcthorne said:


> Comcast has no packages with a cable card that total out to less than $50 all in. Including box/cc rental, outlet fees, HD tech fee, your mother in-law is ugly fee and a few others that try to look like taxes.


Hey, I admit I'm a "cable defender" somewhat (even though most of what I watch is from the OTA channels, and I of course now have 2 cable-only Tivos), but I think you're GREATLY exaggerating. (I think the amount that I get for a cable bill WAY outweighs what I get from a cell phone.. and I play on my cell phone all the time!)

I see now, "Digital Starter TV" for $29.99/month per month for 12 months with 2 year agreement. Mentions up to $1.50/month fee added.. and goes to $49.99/month for the 2nd year of the 2 year agreement.

Averaged over 2 years, that's WAY less than $50/month, even if you include taxes.. (With your own Tivo, you even get a very slight credit for your owned equipment.)


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> People understand this just fine. The problem is, at $15 per month, you're going to end up paying far more than the box is worth to watch free TV.


No, they don't - I can point you to any number of posts over at AVS, frex, where people rail about paying Tivo $15 a month for what they say is just guide service.

There's a significant number of folks that don't understand Tivo's business model, and it's Tivo's fault for not making it clear what the deal is.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, they don't - I can point you to any number of posts over at AVS, frex, where people rail about paying Tivo $15 a month for what they say is just guide service.
> 
> There's a significant number of folks that don't understand Tivo's business model, and it's Tivo's fault for not making it clear what the deal is.


OK, not everyone understands what the Tivo fee is for. Then again, these are probably the ones that don't bother reading the fine print.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mattack said:


> Hey, I admit I'm a "cable defender" somewhat (even though most of what I watch is from the OTA channels, and I of course now have 2 cable-only Tivos), but I think you're GREATLY exaggerating. (I think the amount that I get for a cable bill WAY outweighs what I get from a cell phone.. and I play on my cell phone all the time!)
> 
> I see now, "Digital Starter TV" for $29.99/month per month for 12 months with 2 year agreement. Mentions up to $1.50/month fee added.. and goes to $49.99/month for the 2nd year of the 2 year agreement.
> 
> Averaged over 2 years, that's WAY less than $50/month, even if you include taxes.. (With your own Tivo, you even get a very slight credit for your owned equipment.)


Basic cable is typically between $13/mo and $18/mo depending on the market. They would have to include a CableCard as well if you want one. And if you get internet from them, it ends up being almost free, since they charge $15/mo more for internet without cable...

They also have the Basic cable/HBO package...


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

blacknoi said:


> If we are buying this at retail and only wanted to pick one up for spare parts for another base roamio... I wonder if we can buy it $49.99 out the door and then just never activate?
> 
> Or will BB require you to sign up for the 1-year @ $14.99/month instore?
> 
> If you can buy it w/o activation at the point of sale, it could be a lucrative part machine. An extra A/C adapter and extra hard drive immediately come to mind.


Excellent point! To take it one step further, what's to stop someone in a market that sells these buying them and selling them on EBay to markets they weren't designed to be in?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Banker257 said:


> Excellent point! To take it one step further, what's to stop someone in a market that sells these buying them and selling them on EBay to markets they weren't designed to be in?


Nothing except it will be useless outside the US.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

rainwater said:


> Nothing except it will be useless outside the US.


Also, Bestbuy has the means to hold you to contract terms such as before Directv went to leased equipment and in the days that hacking Directv was possible, if you bought a Directv receiver you had xx many days to activate or otherwise there was a penalty charge.

Tjye used that method for two purposes, one toe keep people from buying and re-selling and to prevent people from buying them to hack and not activate properly.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Lifetime service 400,450 dollars upfront. Now do you know people who have a few hundred dollars lying around doing nothing. This is why people do things monthly vs. Lifetime when given the option. Lifetime makes economic sense but upfront money is needed.


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## Alf Tanner (Jan 18, 2014)

Until I read this thread I thought it was a good idea for my parents. Now not so much.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

rainwater said:


> Nothing except it will be useless outside the US.


I believe he was talking about selling into markets where best buy isn't selling them in the US, not outside the US. These units are initially only being sold in select markets by BB.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

mr.unnatural said:


> OK, not everyone understands what the Tivo fee is for. Then again, these are probably the ones that don't bother reading the fine print.


Not everyone understands that patents only last for 20 years and even when they're in effect they don't provide the holder with immunity from market forces.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I think I would just buy a used Tivo HD or a premiere with lifetime service instead.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> I think I would just buy a used Tivo HD or a premiere with lifetime service instead.


I would get a Roamio BAsic. Which will still give you four OTA tuners. Can be used with a Mini. And can have monthly or lifetime service.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> I would get a Roamio BAsic. Which will still give you four OTA tuners. Can be used with a Mini. And can have monthly or lifetime service.


Yes, I agree as other than the initial cost being slightly higher, you get more esp after you figure in the higher monthly cost. Used Roamio basic's can be picked up for around $100, free if you take advantage of the latest offer that has the $20 service plan.


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> For some reason people don't have a problem paying all that money each month to cell phone companies just to save some money initially on a subsidized phone. But in the end they pay alot more just like with the OTA Roamio.


Many people live paycheck to paycheck (even in upper income brackets) and so the lower upfront cost even though there are higher ongoing subscription fees may be the only way for them to afford the luxury of a Tivo , which after all is a discretionary purchase. Otherwise how would they be able to support that inflated monthly mortgage payment on the house they are underwater on and which is much bigger than they really need????


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

spaldingclan said:


> I'm one of those families and I know at least 5 of my friends who are all Upper middle class (household income of at least 80k) who cut the cord because even they think spending $150.month for TV is crazy


Of the 7 People in my department at work, 4 people have no paid TV service aside from Netflix/Amazon/Hulu. I have a super-cheap Dish plan which is costing me ~$40/month. People are sick of paying a lot for TV content.

-Ted


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Wow, no Mini support. What a crippled POS on both the Mini and Lifetime fronts. Roamio is definitely a better buy than this thing.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Bigg said:


> Basic cable is typically between $13/mo and $18/mo depending on the market...


Wow...I'd like to see the markets where that's the case. Certainly not here (Mediacom)


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

FIOS in my area has local channels for $12.99, and knowing FIOS, you could get a discount with broadband subscription.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

In my market, Time Warner charges $21.49 for basic cable, plus I think there is an additional $2.25 "broadcast TV" fee on top of that, not to mention various other fees, surcharges, and taxes. You're probably looking at $30 total just for local channels when all is said and done. I would definitely use an antenna over getting just basic cable.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Wow...I'd like to see the markets where that's the case. Certainly not here (Mediacom)


Every market I know of. It's PUC/DPUC regulated by state.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's nowhere near that price here on Comcast, $31.95 for just limited basic (yes, that's just the locals). Every local franchise is different.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's nowhere near that price here on Comcast, $31.95 for just limited basic (yes, that's just the locals). Every local franchise is different.


That's horrible. It's somewhere in the $13-$15 range. I guess your DPUC is asleep at the wheel! Ours isn't nearly as powerful as in NY, but they still do set certain terms, like basic cable pricing, on their own terms, not Comcast's.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Every market I know of. It's PUC/DPUC regulated by state.


In my area basic cable for FiOS is something like $30 or more. The county has a rule that addresses the price. EVen though in other areas they charge less, both Comcast and FiOS charge a lot because of some stupid county rule that requires it. Although I think part of that is because they are required to offer more than just a very basic set of channels.


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## DarkHelmet (Feb 2, 2002)

Hmm. A pity. Ever since netflix/plex and a roku at every TV in the house evicted the tivos, anything that doesn't have MRV-like functionality is a non starter in this house.

I keep looking out for something usable as a backup and for OTA. I had hoped this might be it, but clearly it's not.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I don't know what she is paying, but I know when my friend got a install last week they didn't have the welcome package that tells about it, didn't set the TV up correctly, didn't bring a free cable card for her Tivo, the internet doesn't work properly, and never returned like promised. No wonder Comcast has some of the worst customer service numbers anywhere.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> In my area basic cable for FiOS is something like $30 or more. The county has a rule that addresses the price. EVen though in other areas they charge less, both Comcast and FiOS charge a lot because of some stupid county rule that requires it. Although I think part of that is because they are required to offer more than just a very basic set of channels.


Does Comcast charge the same? Usually Limited Basic is locals, PEG channels, home shopping, religious, and a few other random junk channels. Nothing that costs much. Hence why it's $13-$15/mo in most places... Here, the price is regulated, so they can't make any excuses about pricing.



DarkHelmet said:


> Hmm. A pity. Ever since netflix/plex and a roku at every TV in the house evicted the tivos, anything that doesn't have MRV-like functionality is a non starter in this house.
> 
> I keep looking out for something usable as a backup and for OTA. I had hoped this might be it, but clearly it's not.


Roamio/Minis?



replaytv said:


> I don't know what she is paying, but I know when my friend got a install last week they didn't have the welcome package that tells about it, didn't set the TV up correctly, didn't bring a free cable card for her Tivo, the internet doesn't work properly, and never returned like promised. No wonder Comcast has some of the worst customer service numbers anywhere.


That should all be self-installable once the drop is run to the demarc.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Does Comcast charge the same? Usually Limited Basic is locals, PEG channels, home shopping, religious, and a few other random junk channels. Nothing that costs much. Hence why it's $13-$15/mo in most places... Here, the price is regulated, so they can't make any excuses about pricing.
> 
> ..............


Comcast had a similar price the last time I checked. I don't remember the reasoning for the rule but it sucked for people who only wanted an inexpensive way to get local channels from the cable company.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Comcast had a similar price the last time I checked. I don't remember the reasoning for the rule but it sucked for people who only wanted an inexpensive way to get local channels from the cable company.


Yeah that sucks. DPUC is asleep at the wheel apparently.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

I purchased a Roamio yesterday, after thinking about waiting for the OTA model. I didn't see any mention of Wifi on the OTA, so I called Tivo Customer support, and they told me I would have to buy a Wifi adapter which was around $80, in order to connect it to my wifi network. So I decided to spend the extra money and get the regular Roamio unit. I use an indoor HDTV antenna made by Walltenna, and it works perfectly. The tuner in the Roamio seems much stronger than the TV in my one year old HDTV, so I get more channels. I am about 14 miles from downtown Atlanta, and get around 18 channels, and all the major networks.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

Captainbob said:


> I purchased a Roamio yesterday, after thinking about waiting for the OTA model. I didn't see any mention of Wifi on the OTA, so I called Tivo Customer support, and they told me I would have to buy a Wifi adapter which was around $80, in order to connect it to my wifi network. So I decided to spend the extra money and get the regular Roamio unit. I use an indoor HDTV antenna made by Walltenna, and it works perfectly. The tuner in the Roamio seems much stronger than the TV in my one year old HDTV, so I get more channels. I am about 14 miles from downtown Atlanta, and get around 18 channels, and all the major networks.


Isn't the OTA Roamio in the same hardware case as the regular Roamio base? If so, I wonder if the radio daughter board would work from a basic? But I suppose even if the main board was the same, the software wouldn't support it.

Besides that though, why wouldn't they at least have built in Wifi? Does it have ethernet? How is it suppose to obtain that expensive OTA guide data?

This whole OTA Tivo thing sounds like it's designed to be a dead product before they even get out the door with it? Really as I suggested prior, if the want a OTA only Roamio, why not create a OTA only software for the base Roamio model instead of creating a special hardware version? Sure you save manufacturing cost by leaving out small things like cable card slot and builtin Wifi daughter card but you can't say those at a wholesale manufacturing cost can't be more than $25 per Roamio.

After all didn't they get get rid of most their hardware engineers, is this the result I guess some custom hardware design made to look like a prior hardware design?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

TiVo still has hardware engineering capabilities - that was a very poorly written article that TiVo responded directly to.

Removing a lot of those hardware components would save quite a bit in production costs, so I do believe that is the intent.

Yes, it has an Ethernet port - The base Roamio doesn't have wifi either.

I still think a base Roamio is a better, feature rich, change resilient product than the Roamio OTA.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

bradleys said:


> TiVo still has hardware engineering capabilities - that was a very poorly written article that TiVo responded directly to.
> 
> Removing a lot of those hardware components would save quite a bit in production costs, so I do believe that is the intent.
> 
> ...


The base 4 tuner Roamio has Wifi....

The moser retail part cost for cable card slot is $12, ethernet smb $2.50, now the Wifi board which is a daughter board on all Roamio models is unknown but I can't expect it be more that $10 collectivly. Those prices are single buy retail, actual manufacturing cost has to be much less.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

eboydog said:


> The base 4 tuner Roamio has Wifi...


That is right, Moca was missing...

A savings, is a savings - call it $20 total and I think you are being generous - but that really isn't the point.

IMHO the Base Roamio is by far the better purchase.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

Captainbob said:


> I purchased a Roamio yesterday, after thinking about waiting for the OTA model. I didn't see any mention of Wifi on the OTA, so I called Tivo Customer support, and they told me I would have to buy a Wifi adapter which was around $80, in order to connect it to my wifi network. So I decided to spend the extra money and get the regular Roamio unit. I use an indoor HDTV antenna made by Walltenna, and it works perfectly. The tuner in the Roamio seems much stronger than the TV in my one year old HDTV, so I get more channels. I am about 14 miles from downtown Atlanta, and get around 18 channels, and all the major networks.


With thinking about it more, it does make sense that it doesn't have Wifi built in since it does support Tivo Stream so must have ethernet since the external stream requires ethernet. I would dare to say that it would have made more sense for the basic, plus and Pro Roamio's to not have Wifi built in than anything else.

With the little details provided on the hardware side, I say it has to be the same hardware board as the basic Roamio with the cable card slot removed and no Wifi daughter card installed. Of course also running a special version of Tivo software that has the networking for Wifi and cable card support removed unless.

I'm wondering if the box can be used with no guide data as a simple OTA receiver? As the box sells for $49 with a $75 early termination fee I'm not sure I would try it.

September should be an interesting month for Tivo and us, the TCF board should be pretty busy come October if all that being promised comes out not to mention who knows what else may happen too as it's almost as if TiVo's marketing department is waking up from a long nap.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Surprised the ETF is only $75. So if someone purchased it and then canceled before the first month, TiVo would only get $160. If they purchased it form TiVo. Less if they get it from Best Buy. And I would think the ETF and the initial price would be enough for them to break even on the hardware wouldn't it? Otherwise, why charge such a low ETF? That is only five months of subscription.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

Is Tivo selling directly? From the Engadget article, I got the impression only certain best buy stores would stock them, on the Tivo website has a store lookup and the 2 local store in my area aren't listed (central missouri) only the KC, St Louis and Springfield Missouri store were shown.

As the ETF is concerned, it's almost another indication even Tivo doesn't plan on this being a successful marketing for this "special edition Roamio OTA".


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

It made no sense from the start. The regular Roamio makes a lot more sense, since it's such a versatile piece of hardware...


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Bigg said:


> It made no sense from the start. The regular Roamio makes a lot more sense, since it's such a versatile piece of hardware...


It makes sense no to those in the know. However, the OTA Roamio is clearly targeted at impulse buyers who don't know any better. It is a lot like Black Friday TVs for $100. They work, but there are significant shortcomings. The thing is, most OTA Roamio buyers probably aren't going to become savvy enough to ever figure out they could have had something better at a lower long-term cost.

Sadly, this is a smart move on Tivo's part to improve their retail subs, albeit at the expense of uninformed buyers.

-Ted


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

My theory is that they're going to announce and release a bunch of new apps to make it a DVR + roku (already announced Amazon Prime and Vudu, so maybe ESPN, HBOGo, etc.), and also release a roku app (which would explain why no mini support) for access on secondary TVs, making this unit the cord cutters all in one "dream" device and to try to justify the monthly cost. I think they're doing it as a solution and response to Aereo's demise and as competition to Simple.TV and Tablo.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ncted said:


> Sadly, this is a smart move on Tivo's part to improve their retail subs, albeit at the expense of uninformed buyers.


Well then maybe TiVo is doing the right thing from a business standpoint. The well-informed consumers that actually do research and long-term cost/benefit analysis before a purchase will get a regular Roamio and everyone else can just get the stripped down $50 version.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> and also release a roku app (which would explain why no mini support)


No it wouldn't.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> No it wouldn't.


Please explain?


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

The base Roamio with lifetime is a much better deal in the long run, no question. The problem some have is not being able to come up with the purchase price, for them, I would say do without TiVo until you can afford that. If they just don't want to wait, I would sure buy the Roamio OTA before any of the other OTA DVRs, such as Simple.TV, Tablo, or Channel Master.

As far as the recommendations for TiVo to sell this box for $150 and charge $5 for service, nonsense, the box can't be sold for $150 profitably and service can't be provided for $5/month profitably. TiVo is correct to offer something that would generate a profit if it sells, this box and service plan does that. The market will be tiny, no question, but the OTA DVR market is very small to begin with.


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## rexreed (Jun 4, 2013)

I do not think these are being sold at all the Magnolia Stores. I am surrounded by Magnolia equipped BB stores and none are listed on the store locator. BTW, many of the addresses listed for Texas are incorrect. The cities/ post office seem to be identical to the street. For example, there is no city called Katy Freeway or Grand Parkway. Weird.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well then maybe TiVo is doing the right thing from a business standpoint. The well-informed consumers that actually do research and long-term cost/benefit analysis before a purchase will get a regular Roamio and everyone else can just get the stripped down $50 version.


Having been in the very high end video business for most of my life both as a tech, trainer, and instructor, now retired but working part time, I was tempted to buy the OTA Tivo if it had been available, because it fit my needs, with the exception of the lack of Wifi and it not being available till the middle of September, 2014. I already have a Roku that I have been using for around 2 years, which is connected via Wifi, because running an ethernet cable to where my TV and Roku box are, is very difficult, so streaming on the OTA is not necessary. All I needed is the tuners and DVR function, and for $50, that is a great price.

As far as buying the lifetime subscription, I personally would rather pay the $15 a month, than dropping around $500 in one shot for the lifetime subscription. The Lifetime of the unit could possibly be just a couple of years, due to the fact that it has a hard drive unit in it, which will probably fail eventually as all hard drives do. I would assume that having to replace the harddrive, with labor costs and shipping, would most likely be more expensive than just buying another unit, which would cancel the "lifetime" subscription. So for me, the $15 a month for the features of programming the DVR, while not free, is pretty reasonable, and I think there are many people that would feel the same way. Even at $200, which is what I paid at best Buys, for my new Roamio, I think that it is a very nice product for that price, and the $15 a month, while I am not rich, is a reasonable price to use it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Captainbob said:


> As far as buying the lifetime subscription, I personally would rather pay the $15 a month, than dropping around $500 in one shot for the lifetime subscription. The Lifetime of the unit could possibly be just a couple of years, due to the fact that it has a hard drive unit in it, which will probably fail eventually as all hard drives do. I would assume that having to replace the harddrive, with labor costs and shipping, would most likely be more expensive than just buying another unit, which would cancel the "lifetime" subscription. So for me, the $15 a month for the features of programming the DVR, while not free, is pretty reasonable, and I think there are many people that would feel the same way. Even at $200, which is what I paid at best Buys, for my new Roamio, I think that it is a very nice product for that price, and the $15 a month, while I am not rich, is a reasonable price to use it.


Lifetime on a Tivo can be as long as you want it to be if all you ever have to worry about is the hard drive failing. Replacing a Tivo hard drive isn't difficult and is apparently quite simple with the latest models from what I've heard. There's no labor or shipping costs involved if you know how to use a screwdriver with a Torx bit.


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## late for dinner (May 17, 2013)

replaytv said:


> I don't know what she is paying, but I know when my friend got a install last week they didn't have the welcome package that tells about it, didn't set the TV up correctly, didn't bring a free cable card for her Tivo, the internet doesn't work properly, and never returned like promised. No wonder Comcast has some of the worst customer service numbers anywhere.


My install last month with Comcast went smoothly, FYI.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Captainbob said:


> The Lifetime of the unit could possibly be just a couple of years, due to the fact that it has a hard drive unit in it, which will probably fail eventually as all hard drives do. I would assume that having to replace the harddrive, with labor costs and shipping, would most likely be more expensive than just buying another unit, which would cancel the "lifetime" subscription.


Your comments make sense for those who do not want to deal with problems, but the reality for a Roamio hard drive is they are essentially "plug and play". Drop in a clean drive, up to 3TB, and it will format itself.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

This is the uninformed consumer they want, but hopefully he'll get some learnin' here now.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Captainbob said:


> As far as buying the lifetime subscription, I personally would rather pay the $15 a month, than dropping around $500 in one shot for the lifetime subscription. The Lifetime of the unit could possibly be just a couple of years, due to the fact that it has a hard drive unit in it, which will probably fail eventually as all hard drives do. I would assume that having to replace the harddrive, with labor costs and shipping, would most likely be more expensive than just buying another unit, which would cancel the "lifetime" subscription. So for me, the $15 a month for the features of programming the DVR, while not free, is pretty reasonable, and I think there are many people that would feel the same way. Even at $200, which is what I paid at best Buys, for my new Roamio, I think that it is a very nice product for that price, and the $15 a month, while I am not rich, is a reasonable price to use it.


Let's see... A lifetime Base Roamio with absolutely no discounts is $700. A new direct replacement 500GB hard-drive is $53 from Amazon. Open box, plug in drive, close box, reboot. Drive is automatically formatted and software is downloaded.

For the vast majority of TiVo's the hard-drive far outlasts the platform. There are people here still running fully functional series 1's and 2's without a hiccup - for the record that is 14 / 15 years on the same hard-drive and that is the norm not the exception.

The biggest problem TiVo's ever had hardware wise was a bad lot of capacitors in the S3 models... But even that was few and far between.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> Please explain?


Um, how about _you_ explain? Because I see no logic to your statement. "We'll make a Roku app, so we'll cripple the Mini support." How does that follow at all? "That way we'll make less money by not selling hardware. Yay!" 

No, the reason they crippled Mini support (among other features) is surely to upsell people to the base Roamio.* Nothing else makes sense.

* Or to put it another way, to avoid cannibalizing base Roamio sales.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> Um, how about you explain? Because I see no logic to your statement. "We'll make a Roku app, so we'll cripple the Mini support." How does that follow at all? "That way we'll make less money by not selling hardware. Yay!"  No, the reason they crippled Mini support (among other features) is surely to upsell people to the base Roamio.* Nothing else makes sense. * Or to put it another way, to avoid cannibalizing base Roamio sales.


I'm not saying that they just decided to cripple support for the mini. They knew they were coming out with the Roku app and decided "why bother?". I believe it's your logic that's flawed actually. Why do they even need a mini if they come out with a fully featured Roku/FireTV/XBox/PSx/etc app??? For all we know , they may charge for the app on initial purchase or monthly, or knowing TiVo, both, and they're discontinuing the mini and purging stock, which can be believable based on their announcement about dropping fees for it, as reported by Zatz.

Regardless of your "opinion", I stand by mine. If it happens, great. If not, oh well.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> Roku/FireTV/XBox/PSx/etc app


I think that is where your assumption may take a left turn. I suspect any future TiVo app will work more similar to the IOS app than than a fully functional TiVo Mini.

For some, on less used TV's, that may be just fine.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> I think that is where your assumption may take a left turn. I suspect any future TiVo app will work more similar to the IOS app than than a fully functional TiVo Mini. For some, on less used TV's, that may be just fine.


By "fully functional", I'm talking about equivalent to the Simple.TV and Tablo apps on the Roku, which the cord cutters who use those and possibly this new OTA Roamio deem to be "good enough" as long as they keep updating it with things like full program guide, record from guide with one button, etc.

Do you guys even follow those devices or have ever seen/used one? I have and own a STV gen 1 and I can tell you if the new TiVo does what they do plus a little more, you'd see my theory is pretty sound.

Remember, TiVo's not targeting OUR market, they're targeting THEIRS (STV, Tablo, etc), so you have to think in their terms.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Well, if you are familiar with the IOS App, I think it is safe to assume that the functionality will be similar on these Ancillary devices. So, that should include guide data, the ability to select a TiVo, initiate a recording and watch a recording. No ability to watch live TV, however you can start a recording and watch right away. 

If that is "good enough" then, this should be a popular offering.


Interesting thought: If I were to come by your house and log-in using my credentials on your Roku, would I be able to view my recordings? That OOH functionality could very well be crippled in these Ancillary devices. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> Well, if you are using the IOS App, I think it is safe to assume that the functionality will be similar on these Ancillary devices. So, that should include guide data, the ability to select a TiVo, initiate a recording and watch a recording. No ability to watch live TV, however you can start a recording and watch right away. If that is "good enough" then, this should be a popular offering.


With Simple.TV and Tablo there certainly IS the ability to watch live tv, so not sure what you're saying there?


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=520595


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> With Simple.TV and Tablo there certainly IS the ability to watch live tv, so not sure what you're saying there?


I am not talking about what Simple.TV can do, I am talking about what I expect TiVo ancillary applications to provide. My assumptions hinge around what currently exists on the TiVo IOS app - and that excludes Live TV.

Can that change? Yes, Do I expect that to change? Nope.

If you are not familiar with how the IOS app works - You can browse the grid and find something currently on TV. You can then select to watch that program now. The IOS app then initiates a macro that starts recording the selected program and then streams the recording to the IOS device. I would love this to change - seems wonky to me, maybe we will be surprised.

Similar to watching live TV, but not.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I just got back from vacation so this is the first I'm seeing this... Skimming through the thread is sounds like the price is going to be low, like $50, but there will be no lifetime option and no Mini support? Is that right? Was there an official announcement or is this all just hear say speculation?

I can understand no lifetime, it's a way to subsidize the lower price of the hardware, but why would they eliminate Mini support? That doesn't make any sense. Will they also eliminate MRS? This unit seems like it could be a good compliment to a real Roamio for those of us with channels we can only get OTA or where OTA has better quality. But if they eliminate Mini/MRS support it won't be much use for that scenario. 

I currently can only get The CW OTA so I use a HDHomeRun and PC. I'd much rather use a cheap TiVo instead to make it easier to watch on the main TV. But if it doesn't have MRS support then that won't be an option.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

sbiller said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=520595





bradleys said:


> I am not talking about what Simple.TV can do, I am talking about what I expect TiVo ancillary applications to provide. My assumption hinges around what currently exists on the TiVo IOS app - and that excludes Live TV. Can that change? Yes, Do I expect that to change? Nope.


^^^^^^Look above your head Mr Bradleys^^^^^^


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> If I were to come by your house and log-in using my credentials on your Roku, would I be able to view my recordings? That OOH functionality could very well be crippled in these Ancillary devices. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.


I doubt OOH will be supported on these ancillary devices. TiVo is walking a fine line, legally, with OOH streaming and expanding it to set top devices could get them in legal trouble. The only reason they're getting away with it on mobile devices is because MSOs have similar offerings on mobile. But there is no such precedent for streaming to set top boxes, like Roku, etc..., OOH.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I just got back from vacation so this is the first I'm seeing this... Skimming through the thread is sounds like the price is going to be low, like $50, but there will be no lifetime option and no Mini support? Is that right? Was there an official announcement or is this all just hear say speculation?
> 
> I can understand no lifetime, it's a way to subsidize the lower price of the hardware, but why would they eliminate Mini support? That doesn't make any sense. Will they also eliminate MRS? This unit seems like it could be a good compliment to a real Roamio for those of us with channels we can only get OTA or where OTA has better quality. But if they eliminate Mini/MRS support it won't be much use for that scenario.
> 
> I currently can only get The CW OTA so I use a HDHomeRun and PC. I'd much rather use a cheap TiVo instead to make it easier to watch on the main TV. But if it doesn't have MRS support then that won't be an option.


Welcome back Dan!

Here is a link to the Press Release --> http://pr.tivo.com/press-releases/simple-brilliant-and-legal-tivo-launches-over-the-air-dvr-nasdaq-tivo-1139697


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

sbiller said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=520595


Guess my theory has some "logic" after all, huh?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I doubt OOH will be supported on these ancillary devices. TiVo is walking a fine line, legally, with OOH streaming and expanding it to set top devices could get them in legal trouble. The only reason they're getting away with it on mobile devices is because MSOs have similar offerings on mobile. But there is no such precedent for streaming to set top boxes, like Roku, etc..., OOH.


I agree with you - nothing technically prohibiting it, but this is true place shifting and I don't think TiVo wants to be a ground breaker in that area.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

The PR also confirms WiFi so the speculation about removal of the WiFi daughter-board is likely incorrect.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm not sure why TiVo hasn't added the ability to watch real live TV to the iOS app yet. At first their record/watch macro made sense because the TiVos didn't support dynamic tuner allocation. But now that they do I'm not sure why they don't just make the iOS app act like a Mini with regard to live TV.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> Guess my theory has some "logic" after all, huh?


There have been rumors about Ancillary stream products for quite a while. TiVo had a demo of a Roku implementation at CES last year.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2014-01/tivo-coming-roku/

The OTA Roamio will not have built in stream, so I expect in order for this to work, you will need to purchase the external stream.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

sbiller said:


> Welcome back Dan!
> 
> Here is a link to the Press Release --> http://pr.tivo.com/press-releases/simple-brilliant-and-legal-tivo-launches-over-the-air-dvr-nasdaq-tivo-1139697


Well that specifically says that it IS compatible with the Mini, so I guess all the complaints about that I read were from before the press release or maybe they didn't read it?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Well that specifically says that it IS compatible with the Mini, so I guess all the complaints about that I read were from before the press release or maybe they didn't read it?


That was a misquote Dan, I would have to go looking but TiVo clarified it will not be compatible with the mini.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> There have been rumors about Ancillary stream products for quite a while. TiVo had a demo of a Roku implementation at CES last year. http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2014-01/tivo-coming-roku/


Yes, I knew that. That's the basis for my theory, especially once they announced this OTA Roamio.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

bradleys said:


> I am not talking about what Simple.TV can do, I am talking about what I expect TiVo ancillary applications to provide. My assumptions hinge around what currently exists on the TiVo IOS app - and that excludes Live TV.
> 
> Can that change? Yes, Do I expect that to change? Nope.
> 
> ...


Its a real kludge currently. I do expect this will be corrected.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> Yes, I knew that. That's the basis for my theory, especially once they announced this OTA Roamio.


I don't think your theory is off base, I just qualify that it will not provide one for one functionality compared to the Mini. And I am taking a big guess in saying the true live TV will be one of those elements.

BTW: The OTA Roamio will not have built in stream, so I expect in order for this to work, you will need to purchase the external stream. So it isn't all that direct.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

sbiller said:


> Its a real kludge currently. I do expect this will be corrected.


I would be very happy to be absolutely wrong. I am still betting that these ancillary stream tools will not include live TV.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> I'm not saying that they just decided to cripple support for the mini. They knew they were coming out with the Roku app and decided "why bother?".


It's not a bother to support the Mini. They already do that. It's an effort to _not_ support the Mini. They have to actively disable the support that's already there in the software. The Roamio OTA isn't some brand-new device built from scratch, it's a stripped-down base Roamio, both in hardware and software. The cost for it to support the Mini would be $0.



> _Why do they even need a mini if they come out with a fully featured Roku/FireTV/XBox/PSx/etc app?_


It's not a question of needing it. They already have it.



HarperVision said:


> Guess my theory has some "logic" after all, huh?


TiVo adding support for additional devices does not support your theory, no.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> I don't think your theory is off base, I just qualify that it will not provide one for one functionality compared to the Mini. And I am taking a big guess in saying the true live TV will be one of those elements. BTW: The OTA Roamio will not have built in stream, so I expect in order for this to work, you will need to purchase the external stream. So it isn't all that direct.


See my below post, I agree with you:



HarperVision said:


> By "fully functional", I'm talking about equivalent to the Simple.TV and Tablo apps on the Roku, ............
> 
> .........Remember, TiVo's not targeting OUR market, they're targeting THEIRS (STV, Tablo, etc), so you have to think in their terms.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> That was a misquote Dan, I would have to go looking but TiVo clarified it will not be compatible with the mini.


I found it...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10216951#post10216951

OK I'm back to being confused. Although it's still not clear if it supports MRS. I think the Stream uses MRS to function, so I assume yes, but can't say for sure. Although I'll likely wait a bit and see how it pans out. Knowing TiVo they'll change their mind on this whole no lifetime thing in a few months.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> It's not a bother to support the Mini. They already do that. It's an effort to not support the Mini. They have to actively disable the support that's already there in the software. The Roamio OTA isn't some brand-new device built from scratch, it's a stripped-down base Roamio, both in hardware and software. The cost for it to support the Mini would be $0. It's not a question of needing it. They already have it.


TiVo always seems to say they're a software company, so why is it hard to believe that they may phase out the mini in favor of apps on "popular consumer devices"? Their main box when/if a series 6 comes out can easily be designed and manufactured by a third party, like they did with the old gen Sony, Phillips, Humax, Toshiba, Pace, etc. I guess we shall see, won't we.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmcbrine said:


> It's not a bother to support the Mini. They already do that. It's an effort to _not_ support the Mini. They have to actively disable the support that's already there in the software. The Roamio OTA isn't some brand-new device built from scratch, it's a stripped-down base Roamio, both in hardware and software. The cost for it to support the Mini would be $0.


Same is true of 2 tuner Premiere units and yet they still disable those from being a Mini host.

I wonder if you have a real Roamio and Mini and you add a Roamio OTA if the Mini will still be able to stream from the Roamio OTA like it can from a 2 tuner Premiere? Perhaps they will disable it from being a Mini host but not completely disable streaming.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> TiVo always seems to say they're a software company, so why is it hard to believe that they may phase out the mini in favor of apps on "popular consumer devices"? Their main box when/if a series 6 comes out can easily be designed and manufactured by a third party, like they did with the old gen Sony, Phillips, Humax, Toshiba, Pace, etc. I guess we shall see, won't we.


Most of these 3rd party devices do no support MPEG-2 video. Which means that for them to work they need the Stream to transcode the video first. If you've ever used the iOS app you know that the experience is not the same as a Mini. The transcoding has a lag, which means that there is no FF/RW capabilities. There is only 30 second skip and instant replay, and both of those have a slight lag even on a local network. The Mini provides a complete TiVo experience that's practically indistinguishable from using the TiVo directly. There is no way for them to do that with an app running on a 3rd party device that does not support MPEG-2 encoding.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Same is true of 2 tuner Premiere units and yet they still disable those from being a Mini host.


I think that's mostly a relic of the time when it seized a tuner and wouldn't let go, but it also fits with a desire to upsell customers to four- (or six-) tuner units.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I agree with Dan and wmcbrine, TiVo will not move away from the Mini in favor of these ancillary devices. The Mini feels and works exactly like a base TiVo- no way these devices would work like that. 

Will they be "good enough" as you say - that is up to an individual consumer. I am just saying do not expect to use it as if it has a TV tuner - that is why I say it will not have live TV as an option IMHO.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Not only is the Stream/Roku experience not going to be as good as the Mini, everything is going to be a compressed 2 mbps on a big screen TV unless they increase the bitrate. It might look ok though for casual viewing, in an HD torrent kind of way.

The Mini platform isn't going away for the sake of Roku's and FireTV's. If anything I expect it to evolve. There's a long term MSO agenda for it. (e.g. Mini's can replace the DVR in Cloud DVR deployments.)


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Not only is the Stream/Roku experience going to be fine but lagtastic, eveything is going to be a compressed 2 mbps on a big screen TV unless they increase the bitrate.


If they're targeting the Aereo, STV and Tablo crowd, this is what they use, know and expect anyway. And FYI, I have a STV and it certainly isn't that bad.



BigJimOutlaw said:


> The Mini platform isn't going away for the sake of Roku's and FireTV's. If anything I expect it to evolve.


I can see that as a possibility as well.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Um, how about _you_ explain? Because I see no logic to your statement. "We'll make a Roku app, so we'll cripple the Mini support." How does that follow at all? "That way we'll make less money by not selling hardware. Yay!"
> 
> No, the reason they crippled Mini support (among other features) is surely to upsell people to the base Roamio.* Nothing else makes sense.
> 
> * Or to put it another way, to avoid cannibalizing base Roamio sales.


Is that really upselling? The Roamio Basic is less expensive than the OTA Roamio. At $15 a month forever, the OTA Roamio is easily more expensive than a Roamio basic with lifetime. TiVo has been selling Series 5 TiVos now for a year. Series 3 TiVos were out a long time ago. No one should be expecting them to get updated.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> Is that really upselling? The Roamio Basic is less expensive than the OTA Roamio. At $15 a month forever, the OTA Roamio is easily more expensive than a Roamio basic with lifetime.


True, but the OTA Roamio has a less expensive entry point @$50 and that is very intriguing for certain people.

I do agree with Dan, give it a few months and the OTA Roamio will have a normal price point with a standard service fee agreement.

A base Roamio is $200, I bet we see the Roamio OTA @ $150 - which I still don't think is a great deal considering how many features have been removed / crippled.


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## flashedbios (Dec 7, 2012)

trip1eX said:


> That is why you get a ~$50/mo tv package. What I noticed is every cord cutter post quotes only the most expensive cable tv packages. I never understood this.
> 
> I never understood how the same person who pays for such an expensive cable tv package is the same person who then is perfectly happy with OTA and Netflix.


Because in my house, our preferences dictate that most of the shows we like watching are only on channels offered on the highest package, and we wouldnt be happy with OTA and netflix. We also incorporate the pirate bay.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> Is that really upselling? The Roamio Basic is less expensive than the OTA Roamio. At $15 a month forever, the OTA Roamio is easily more expensive than a Roamio basic with lifetime.


If it weren't for the limitations it wouldn't be bad. You can get a Roamio Basic for $170 at Amazon and lifetime for $400 with MSD or PLSR code. But even then you're looking at laying out $570 and a comparative payback of about 3 years. Now lifetime units do have resale value to consider, and the Roamio Basic does have CableCARD capabilities if you change your mind about OTA, so it's not an apples to apples comparison but $50 + $15/mo is still pretty enticing. My biggest issue is the limitations. If it weren't for those I'd seriously consider getting one for my OTA stuff. (my current solution is a PITA)


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> If it weren't for the limitations it wouldn't be bad. You can get a Roamio Basic for $170 at Amazon and lifetime for $400 with MSD or PLSR code. But even then you're looking at laying out $570 and a comparative payback of about 3 years. Now lifetime units do have resale value to consider, and the Roamio Basic does have CableCARD capabilities if you change your mind about OTA, so it's not an apples to apples comparison but $50 + $15/mo is still pretty enticing. My biggest issue is the limitations. If it weren't for those I'd seriously consider getting one for my OTA stuff. (my current solution is a PITA)


How much resale value could a 3 year old Tivo have, when in three years, I am sure that the products then will be faster, more capable, have more storage, and if anything, less expensive to produce. Technology in three years, changes very rapidly. Compare a three year old smartphone with the phones that are produced today. Get a Tivo unit today, pay the $15 a month, and in a couple of years, a much improved unit will be available, all without having to lay out $400.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Go on ebay and check for yourself - 3 year old lifetime Premieres are still selling for $300+.

Paying monthly for one of these, even at $50 upfront, is a sucker bet after a couple of years. But that's been true for years now (at the normal non-discounted monthly rates).


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Captainbob said:


> How much resale value could a 3 year old Tivo have, when in three years, I am sure that the products then will be faster, more capable, have more storage, and if anything, less expensive to produce. Technology in three years, changes very rapidly. Compare a three year old smartphone with the phones that are produced today. Get a Tivo unit today, pay the $15 a month, and in a couple of years, a much improved unit will be available, all without having to lay out $400.


The market for used TiVos w/lifetime is fairly robust. In 3 years, I would expect a used base Roamio w/lifetime to sell for somewhere in the neighborhood of $300.

I also don't expect TiVo to refresh the Roamio line anytime soon, certainly not within the next couple of years.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> Go on ebay and check for yourself - 3 year old lifetime Premieres are still selling for $300+.
> 
> Paying monthly for one of these, even at $50 upfront, is a sucker bet after a couple of years. But that's been true for years now (at the normal non-discounted monthly rates).


But that only holds true if you're motivated to sell them. I have 2 Premiere units with lifetime sitting on the floor of my office right now. $300 is just not worth the time and effort required to sell and ship them. I'm likely going to end up giving them to my Mom instead. Although that does have some value to me as I'm currently paying $6.95/mo for a TiVo HD that I gave her years ago and I'll be able to cancel that.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan,

I was the same way with my S3's. I spent 10 minutes and put them on Craigslist and had them sold within 24 hours locally.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

According to the review on The Verge, this box is a Best Buy exclusive item. That should be the kiss of death .


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> It's not a bother to support the Mini. They already do that. It's an effort to _not_ support the Mini. They have to actively disable the support that's already there in the software. The Roamio OTA isn't some brand-new device built from scratch, it's a stripped-down base Roamio, both in hardware and software. The cost for it to support the Mini would be $0.
> 
> It's not a question of needing it. They already have it.
> 
> TiVo adding support for additional devices does not support your theory, no.


While we look at the Roamio OTA and all the technical reasons of it being wrong to implement this way you have to stop and realize this is a TiVo marketing test.

They are attempting to market a device for those who while may know Tivo, want a simple one TV viewing solution and from the selected stores that will be carrying it, only those in high population area were a maximum OTA channels are available. Somewhat comparative to a poor man's cable service for bare ones feature set.

If you buy one Roamio OTA and to want to watch in content in another room, Tivo would prefer you buy a second Roamio OTA rather than a mini. Both (Mini & OTA) have monthly service options so taking Mini support away, it's just a larger money maker for Tivo. For use more familiar with Roamio's technical abilities, it baffles us to why someone would want a stripped down version were Tivo marketing sees it as a test to see if they can hack into the OTA only market.

It's similer to my situation when I bought my first Roamio, sure I thought 4 tuners would be more than enough but such didn't work so I had to go Pro and sell my 4 tuner Roamio's. Chances are there will a lot of regret buyers who buy the OTA and figure out the basic standard Roamio is better and so the cycle continues.

These Tivo business decisions are being made for marketing reasons, not technical.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

tomhorsley said:


> According to the review on The Verge, this box is a Best Buy exclusive item. That should be the kiss of death .


So was Directv boxes at one point before they went to leased box design, that didn't seem to hurt them which I believe they steal sell "leased" boxes. Many sheeple believe Best Buy is the one and only stop for home electronics and such. I used to hate them for their aggressive excessive product pricing but now since they do online price matching, I always check prices on Amazon and Tiger direct before I go to my local BB and have saved hundreds of dollars as a result. They will rip you off if you aren't an educated buyer, even their online prices are often less than the store's price, if you are careful, best buy is not a bad place to shop.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bradleys said:


> Dan,
> 
> I was the same way with my S3's. I spent 10 minutes and put them on Craigslist and had them sold within 24 hours locally.


Craigslist is one thing I never really liked. Since I usually prefer to ship something than meet the buyer. But I have met the buyer a few times in the past with excellent results. But it seems like less of a hassle to just ship an item.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

eboydog said:


> So was Directv boxes at one point before they went to leased box design, that didn't seem to hurt them which I believe they steal sell "leased" boxes. Many sheeple believe Best Buy is the one and only stop for home electronics and such. I used to hate them for their aggressive excessive product pricing but now since they do online price matching, I always check prices on Amazon and Tiger direct before I go to my local BB and have saved hundreds of dollars as a result. They will rip you off if you aren't an educated buyer, even their online prices are often less than the store's price, if you are careful, best buy is not a bad place to shop.


Yes since price matching I always have Best Buy price match my purchases. SInce Amazon started charging taxes in my state and BestBuy does the price matching, I have used BestBuy much more often than I used to in the past.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> $300 is just not worth the time and effort required to sell and ship them.


Really $300 to sell a PRemiere would be easily $150/hr wage for me.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

bradleys said:


> I agree with Dan and wmcbrine, TiVo will not move away from the Mini in favor of these ancillary devices. The Mini feels and works exactly like a base TiVo- no way these devices would work like that.
> 
> Will they be "good enough" as you say - that is up to an individual consumer. I am just saying do not expect to use it as if it has a TV tuner - that is why I say it will not have live TV as an option IMHO.


The devices would work just like the IOS app works which works decent. If you want the best option you'd get a Mini, but since Tivo already has an IOS app it would take them little effort to make the Apple TV an extender in the same vein.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Really $300 to sell a PRemiere would be easily $150/hr wage for me.


I don't really need the money, that's probably why I'm lazy about it.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ncted said:


> It makes sense no to those in the know. However, the OTA Roamio is clearly targeted at impulse buyers who don't know any better. It is a lot like Black Friday TVs for $100. They work, but there are significant shortcomings. The thing is, most OTA Roamio buyers probably aren't going to become savvy enough to ever figure out they could have had something better at a lower long-term cost.


That's the problem. At least the TVs are cheap. This thing is more expensive than the normal Roamio.



mr.unnatural said:


> Lifetime on a Tivo can be as long as you want it to be if all you ever have to worry about is the hard drive failing. Replacing a Tivo hard drive isn't difficult and is apparently quite simple with the latest models from what I've heard. There's no labor or shipping costs involved if you know how to use a screwdriver with a Torx bit.


Uh oh, I have to agree with Mr. Unnatural again.  That's spot on, it's not rocket science.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Lifetime on a Tivo can be as long as you want it to be if all you ever have to worry about is the hard drive failing. Replacing a Tivo hard drive isn't difficult and is apparently quite simple with the latest models from what I've heard. There's no labor or shipping costs involved if you know how to use a screwdriver with a Torx bit.


This is especially true with the Roamio Basic, and presumably the Roamio OTA, since it uses an external power brick. The two most common problems with TiVos is a failed HDD and a failed power supply. All Roamios have the ability to replace the HDD by simply dropping in a new drive, so fixing that in trivial. On the Basic the power supply is a wall wart so if it goes out you can simply replace it for $15. The Pro/Plus still use an internal power supply so they are more difficult to fix, but you can usually get a replacement from Weaknees for about $100 and it's not terribly difficult to swap.


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)




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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

sbiller said:


> YouTube Link: TiVo Tom Rogers Discusses the Roamio OTA


Another great find Sam! Hmmmm, seems like my theory and comments about it being an answer to Aereo's demise are starting to come to fruition. I can't count the number of times he mentioned Aereo in that video!



HarperVision said:


> My theory is that they're going to announce and release a bunch of new apps to make it a DVR + roku (already announced Amazon Prime and Vudu, so maybe ESPN, HBOGo, etc.), and also release a roku app (which would explain why no mini support) for access on secondary TVs, making this unit the cord cutters all in one "dream" device and to try to justify the monthly cost. I think they're doing it as a solution and response to Aereo's demise and as competition to Simple.TV and Tablo.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

HarperVision said:


> Another great find Sam! Hmmmm, seems like my theory and comments about it being an answer to Aereo's demise are starting to come to fruition......


You are really getting into this whole quoting yourself and tooting your own horn thing, aren't you?

I'd do a eye-roll emoticon, but you seem to have used up the supply from when you quote me, or predict I might post somewhere.

Glass houses... pots & kettles...


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

It is amazing how clueless that pretty chick interviewing him is about all this. Maybe I should cut her a little slack though. There probably isn't enough time for her to do research on every person she interviews for 7 minutes throughout the day.


----------



## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

sbiller said:


>


Aereo had at most 100,000 subs while charging $12 a month. How many subs do you think they can get only selling in markets they don't have a deal with an MSO?

Personally, I'd be shocked if they sold more than 5,000 of these boxes.

I know I won't pay $15 a month forever to watch "free" TV and I can't think of anyone that would either.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> You are really getting into this whole quoting yourself and tooting your own horn thing, aren't you? I'd do a eye-roll emoticon, but you seem to have used up the supply from when you quote me, or predict I might post somewhere. Glass houses... pots & kettles...


A little self conscience are we? Don't worry, I can take it. I said that I respected you and your knowledge. The rolleyes, winkies, smiles and such were all tongue in cheek playful comments, but you clearly have sand in your crotch so I'll discontinue them.

The only reason I quoted that is because people thought I was nuts when I posted it, saying there was "no logic" behind it. Apparently there was, huh?........

.......TOOT, TOOT!!!!


----------



## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It is amazing how clueless that pretty chick interviewing him is about all this. Maybe I should cut her a little slack though. There probably isn't enough time for her to do research on every person she interviews for 7 minutes throughout the day.


I don't know... I would much rather waste 7 minutes of my life looking at her than listening to Tom ramble on about another "innovating product" destined for failure.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Yikes, that clueless host hijacked the whole segment with nonsense.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yikes, that clueless host hijacked the whole segment with nonsense.


Yeah, but she looked good doing it.


----------



## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yeah, but she looked good doing it.


A new drinking game! You have to drink a shot every time Tom says "Aereo"!


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah she really doesn't even seem to understand how broadcasting works. But part of the confusion is TiVo's, or Tom's, fault for specifically trying to market this device as a replacement for Aereo. They're muddling the technological, and legal, differences with their marketing.

One thing I found funny is when Tom said that people will get better reception from an antenna in their home. That's absolutely false! The main purpose of Aereo was that it positioned the antenna farm in a pristine location for the best possible reception. There are a ton of people who live in places where putting a pencil sized antenna on their window would get them no signal at all. Antenna technology has improved and digital has made it so a weak signal can still look good. But there is nothing you can do if there is a mountain or giant building blocking your antenna's line of sight to the broadcast antenna.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Banker257 said:


> Aereo had at most 100,000 subs while charging $12 a month. How many subs do you think they can get only selling in markets they don't have a deal with an MSO?


According to him there are about 27 million OTA only households in the US. (he said 90M cable/DSS and 117M "TV ready")

Although I agree that they probably wont pick up many of Aereo's customers. The majority of Aereo's customers were people who either couldn't/wouldn't put up an antenna to get OTA or sports fans trying to skirt blackout rules. The TiVo OTA doesn't solve either of those problems. It's basically just a cheaper Roamio Basic with no CableCARD slot and artificially imposed limitations.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> One thing I found funny is when Tom said that people will get better reception from an antenna in their home.


Ha. I noticed that as well. But he was confusing reception with quality in that you can watch the full HD quality as it was broadcast on your TiVo. With Aereo, they were converting the stream to a lower bitrate (and mpeg-4) so it would not look as good as TiVo.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Ahhh.... OK I missed that part.


----------



## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

rainwater said:


> Ha. I noticed that as well. But he was confusing reception with quality in that you can watch the full HD quality as it was broadcast on your TiVo. With Aereo, they were converting the stream to a lower bitrate (and mpeg-4) so it would not look as good as TiVo.


What Market gets "hundreds" of OTA signals?


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Banker257 said:


> Aereo had at most 100,000 subs while charging $12 a month. How many subs do you think they can get only selling in markets they don't have a deal with an MSO?
> 
> Personally, I'd be shocked if they sold more than 5,000 of these boxes.
> 
> I know I won't pay $15 a month forever to watch "free" TV and I can't think of anyone that would either.


I do, and I am frugal and not stupid. I pay for the DVR function for my free TV, which in Tivo is excellent and something I missed not having a DVR when I cut the cord 2 years ago. Tivo's DVR is well worth the $15 a month, but hey I can afford coffee at Dunkin Donuts too  .


----------



## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Banker257 said:


> What Market gets "hundreds" of OTA signals?


I counted the OTA signals I get living 15 miles from downtown Atlanta today. I get 27 OTA channels which include all the major networks, and with my Roku box, hundreds and hundreds of other channels. Total cost including Netflix, is $23 a month. This is about $100 less a month than what I was paying before I cut the cord. Lets see, I saved about $2400 in the last two years, so that would pay for about 13 years of Tivo subscription fees.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Banker257 said:


> What Market gets "hundreds" of OTA signals?


Some big cities have a lot, if you count sub stations, but the vast majority will be crap you don't want to watch. It's mostly weather, news, syndicated or Spanish programming and it's all SD.

Most people only care about CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, The CW and maybe PBS. So even if they have access to 100s they really only watch maybe 6.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

sbiller said:


>


WTH? The lady is acting as if the OTA Roamio is some kind of new technology. That the networks might not like? Huh?? I was recording HD content from OTA back in 2001. The lady doesn't seem to have any idea what is going on.

EDIT: After watching some more. The lady was probably shocked that you could even pick up the stations without cable TV. She is just clueless. ALthough I have run across a few people that were shocked that you could get the local stations with just an antenna. And the weird thing to me was that these were people that should have grown up before cable was common place since they were my age or older.
But this lady was the wrong person for the interview. She just has no idea.

EDIT: And it just gets worse. SHe is completely clueless. SHe has no idea about the difference between OTA and cable channels.


----------



## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> Some big cities have a lot, if you count sub stations, but the vast majority will be crap you don't want to watch. It's mostly weather, news, syndicated or Spanish programming and it's all SD.
> 
> Most people only care about CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, The CW and maybe PBS. So even if they have access to 100s they really only watch maybe 6.


If you live in a rural area which I did for a decade, back in the 70's you need cable or dish, and OTA just is not doable. That is one of the downsides of living out in the boonies, which some people love. Most people that live in metro areas on the other hand are surrounded by digital transmitters. These are prime markets for OTA solutions to getting rid of a $1,000+ cable-dish bill every year. More and more people are finding out that this is a great way to save money. Paying for cable or dish to watch 90% of channels that are garbage, and the few remaining channels that you can get OTA, is not something that I want to ever do again.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> WTH? The lady is acting as if the OTA Roamio is some kind of new technology. That the networks might not like? Huh?? I was recording HD content from OTA back in 2001. The lady doesn't seem to have any idea what is going on.


I get the impression she doesn't really understand what a DVR or over-the-air broadcast TV really is.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> According to him there are about 27 million OTA only households in the US. (he said 90M cable/DSS and 117M "TV ready")
> 
> Although I agree that they probably wont pick up many of Aereo's customers. The majority of Aereo's customers were people who either couldn't/wouldn't put up an antenna to get OTA or sports fans trying to skirt blackout rules. The TiVo OTA doesn't solve either of those problems. It's basically just a cheaper Roamio Basic with no CableCARD slot and artificially imposed limitations.


I was on Aereo when it first started in Atlanta. I had been on a Roku box prior to Aereo with a Walltenna HDTV indoor antenna, and the only reason I tried Aereo was because of it's DVR function. Aereo was horrible, as far as I was concerned. Constant stuttering and buffering, as soon as 5 PM would roll around, which would continue for the rest of the evening. Meanwhile, my Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu would stream in HD on my Roku box with zero problems and I was getting a consistent 6.5 mbs download speed on my DSL line that never wavered even in peak hours. So the problem was totally Aereos. I explained to Aereo in many emails back and forth, since I was one of their Beta testers, that I worked in technology for years, understood what was going on, and all indications pointed to their lack of server capacity. They just basically threw up their hands, and admitted to me that they couldn't help my issues, so I discontinued using Aereo. I was not the only one that had these issues with Aereo, I was on their Facebook page and constant similar complaints of buffering, and pixelation, etc were frequently posted.

The Tivo DVR totally solved my problems, by providing the DVR I function wanted for a few more dollars than Aereo was charging me for their erratic service, and to boot, I get many more channels than I was getting with Aereo, and in addition, no stuttering, and no video compression. I have been watching both live and recorded TV all day from my new Tivo box, and haven't seen one dropout, stutter, artifact, or anything abnormal on my 55" HDTV using my indoor antenna. Would I sign up again for Aereo, if they returned, which will never happen, No Way.


----------



## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

HarperVision said:


> Another great find Sam! Hmmmm, seems like my theory and comments about it being an answer to Aereo's demise are starting to come to fruition. I can't count the number of times he mentioned Aereo in that video!


That reporter wasn't very good, she was stuck on the Aereo antenna thing, I had to stop watching because of her. I know reporters don't have to be experts on everything but what part of this couldn't she understand?


----------



## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

eboydog said:


> That reporter wasn't very good, she was stuck on the Aereo antenna thing, I had to stop watching because of her. I know reporters don't have to be experts on everything but what part of this couldn't she understand?


" Not very good," she is as sharp as a bowling ball.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It is amazing how clueless that pretty chick interviewing him is about all this. Maybe I should cut her a little slack though. There probably isn't enough time for her to do research on every person she interviews for 7 minutes throughout the day.


She is a ****ing moron. People have been getting TV OTA in the US for over 50 years!

Tom Rogers said a bunch of stuff that's incorrect, but compared to her, he was on target. Doesn't make this thing any less of a POS. Interesting angle they are taking on marketing though. I wonder how many people are going to take this thing home and hate it and return it, not realizing that it's not that easy to get OTA signals that often come from different cities or transmission sites and have serious multi-path issues, or not realize that his "100 channels" is actually 5 or 6 channels that anyone actually cares about.



Banker257 said:


> Aereo had at most 100,000 subs while charging $12 a month. How many subs do you think they can get only selling in markets they don't have a deal with an MSO?


Are they really tip-toeing around their MSO markets? I HIGHLY doubt it. Bye-bye Boston, NYC, Philly, D.C, and Chicago! Maybe they will tip-toe around ones where they have a deal with an incumbent (what Alaska and bum****?), but I can't see them tip-toeing around the mega-markets.



tarheelblue32 said:


> I get the impression she doesn't really understand what a DVR or over-the-air broadcast TV really is.


Yeah, she is a moron. He didn't handle her well either. He should have said something like, "Well millions of Americans have been watching OTA TV since the 1950's, so I don't think that's an issue. And our DVR technology was ruled legal under Betamax in 1984. But this box is nothing like mom's VCR [chuckle]. In fact, it has a far better user interface than cable and satellite DVRs, and allows you to record four digital HD OTA signals at once." Or something along those lines.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Captainbob said:


> I was on Aereo when it first started in Atlanta. I had been on a Roku box prior to Aereo with a Walltenna HDTV indoor antenna, and the only reason I tried Aereo was because of it's DVR function. Aereo was horrible, as far as I was concerned. Constant stuttering and buffering, as soon as 5 PM would roll around, which would continue for the rest of the evening. Meanwhile, my Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu would stream in HD on my Roku box with zero problems and I was getting a consistent 6.5 mbs download speed on my DSL line that never wavered even in peak hours. So the problem was totally Aereos. I explained to Aereo in many emails back and forth, since I was one of their Beta testers, that I worked in technology for years, understood what was going on, and all indications pointed to their lack of server capacity. They just basically threw up their hands, and admitted to me that they couldn't help my issues, so I discontinued using Aereo. I was not the only one that had these issues with Aereo, I was on their Facebook page and constant similar complaints of buffering, and pixelation, etc were frequently posted.
> 
> The Tivo DVR totally  solved my problems, by providing the DVR I function wanted for a few more dollars than Aereo was charging me for their erratic service, and to boot, I get many more channels than I was getting with Aereo, and in addition, no stuttering, and no video compression. I have been watching both live and recorded TV all day from my new Tivo box, and haven't seen one dropout, stutter, artifact, or anything abnormal on my 55" HDTV using my indoor antenna. Would I sign up again for Aereo, if they returned, which will never happen, No Way.


Did you buy one of the Roamio OTA units? I thought they didn't go on sale until next week?

You sound like the kind of customer TiVo is actually trying to reach. And if they can add some more OTT services (i.e. Amazon, VUDU, etc...) you may not even need that Roku. The TiVo could be your one stop box for everything.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> Did you buy one of the Roamio OTA units? I thought they didn't go on sale until next week?
> 
> You sound like the kind of customer TiVo is actually trying to reach. And if they can add some more OTT services (i.e. Amazon, VUDU, etc...) you may not even need that Roku. The TiVo could be your one stop box for everything.


I became interested in Tivo a couple of weeks ago, after mulling over some different DVRs from companies like Channel Master, for instance. Having a background as a broadcast engineer since the early 60's, I know quite a bit about technology , digital TV, etc, so I think I am far removed from the average shopper of a DVR. I was looking closely at the Roamio, and then I went to the Tivo website and saw the OTA unit for $50 which I couldn't believe. 4 tuners, a 500 gig hard drive, remote, wall wart power supply, nice user interface, for that price, I was ready to buy. The one thing I needed for my home was Wifi, since my router and main PC is upstairs, and my Living room on a lower floor, I didn't want the hassle of having to run a Cat 6 cable to where the Tivo was, and everything else in my home is on a Wifi network. I called Tivo and after the CSR put me on hold, he came back and said the OTA did not come with Wifi, and I would have to buy the their $80 Wifi adapter. So now I am up to $130, which is still a good deal, but I would have to wait another week or two and I really wanted the DVR for the US Open Tennis Games, so I could time shift the viewing. I then went to Best Buys and bought the Roamio.

If they had the OTA in stock at Best Buys, and the Wifi adapter ( I would guess any Wifi -USB adapter would work), I most likely would have bought the OTA, because it apparently does everything that I am using now on my Roamio. I don't need any additional functionality. There are many people in my city that would get very good OTA signals that would work well using the Tivo OTA unit, with just a good indoor HDTV antenna, and many more that live further out that could put up a small outdoor antenna, to get all the local channels of which there are many. This is the market that apparently Tivo is aiming at, and I think they will sell quite a few of these units. I remember when I bought my Roku box about 3 years ago , and at the time, nobody knew what a Roku box was, and now many of my friends and relatives have either a Roku or Apple TV connected to their TV. People are tired of paying a fortune to watch the crappy selection of channels that the cable and dish companies try to ram down your throat, so they can rake in their $120 a month. Aereo had quite a few people sign up in Atlanta, and many of them sited the DVR function of Aereo that would work with the local channels as the main reason they joined Aereo, since most already were using streaming from Netflix, Hulu, Etc...

As for the Roku, I still like the channel selection on the Roku, and frequently watch more than a few channels that will never be seen on a smart TV or a Tivo unit. What the Tivo unit represents to me is an excellent DVR, and it sure beats any DVR I have ever used, and I have used more than a few. To someone that doesn't have a Roku or Apple TV, the addition of Netflix, Hulu, Pandora, etc on the OTA unit will be a bonus for them.

The antenna I use with my TV and now Tivo is a $35 Walltenna, which I bought a couple of years ago. I put it on the wall in back of my TV, with 4 pushpins to hold it in place, and I can switch to all my local channels with no aiming of the antenna required, when changing channels. I get a superior, picture to anything that I had with cable or dish, because they are both compressed. The quality of the video I get from the Tivo unit, is the same as with the antenna connected directly to the TV, no compression at all. Best picture I have ever had.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Captainbob said:


> I do, and I am frugal and not stupid. I pay for the DVR function for my free TV, which in Tivo is excellent and something I missed not having a DVR when I cut the cord 2 years ago. Tivo's DVR is well worth the $15 a month, but hey I can afford coffee at Dunkin Donuts too  .


Why didn't you pay for lifetime instead of going monthly? Are you not planning on keeping your Tivo for more than 3 years? And a Tivo with a lifetime sub actually has resale value.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

http://www.tivo.com/discover/antenna


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> The only reason I quoted that is because people thought I was nuts when I posted it, saying there was "no logic" behind it.


That was about you saying it made sense for TiVo to drop Mini support because they were coming out with a Roku app.  Nothing to do with Aereo.


----------



## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Bigg said:


> She is a ****ing moron. People have been getting TV OTA in the US for over 50 years!
> 
> Tom Rogers said a bunch of stuff that's incorrect, but compared to her, he was on target. Doesn't make this thing any less of a POS. Interesting angle they are taking on marketing though. I wonder how many people are going to take this thing home and hate it and return it, not realizing that it's not that easy to get OTA signals that often come from different cities or transmission sites and have serious multi-path issues, or not realize that his "100 channels" is actually 5 or 6 channels that anyone actually cares about.
> 
> ...


For $50 they'll sell more to people looking for spare parts.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

moedaman said:


> Why didn't you pay for lifetime instead of going monthly? Are you not planning on keeping your Tivo for more than 3 years? And a Tivo with a lifetime sub actually has resale value.


Cash-flow vs. COH.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Surprised by that interview. Trish normally is well prepared.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

moedaman said:


> Why didn't you pay for lifetime instead of going monthly? Are you not planning on keeping your Tivo for more than 3 years? And a Tivo with a lifetime sub actually has resale value.


I don't invest large sums of money in low cost electronics, because being in the tech field my entire life, I know how rapidly technology changes. To spend $200 for the Basic Roamio and $14.95 a month sounds reasonable. To spend $700 on the Roamio and lifetime service, sounds ridiculous frankly. That means in 3 years, I will finally be at the break even point on my $200 DVR. I would anticipate that by then, newer products will be out, with more features, more bells and whistles, and I might purchase something brand new.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

cherry ghost said:


> Surprised by that interview. Trish normally is well prepared.


Common sense, doesn't seem to be one of her fortes.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

rainwater said:


> Ha. I noticed that as well. But he was confusing reception with quality in that you can watch the full HD quality as it was broadcast on your TiVo. With Aereo, they were converting the stream to a lower bitrate (and mpeg-4) so it would not look as good as TiVo.


Obviously he meant that the reception of a higher quality signal ( uncompressed), is better with the Tivo than with either Aereo, Cable or Dish, which is very true, since they are all compressed. Just semantics. I personally have noticed that the tuners in my Roamio, on the OTA signal, are better performing than the tuner in my HDTV, which I found very surprising. I get about 5 more channels with the Roamio unit, than I did with HDTV tuner.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

moedaman said:


> Why didn't you pay for lifetime instead of going monthly? Are you not planning on keeping your Tivo for more than 3 years? And a Tivo with a lifetime sub actually has resale value.


You're wasting your time here...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> I don't invest large sums of money in low cost electronics, because being in the tech field my entire life, I know how rapidly technology changes. To spend $200 for the Basic Roamio and $14.95 a month sounds reasonable. To spend $700 on the Roamio and lifetime service, sounds ridiculous frankly. That means in 3 years, I will finally be at the break even point on my $200 DVR. I would anticipate that by then, newer products will be out, with more features, more bells and whistles, and I might purchase something brand new.


AFter 2 years you will spend $560 if you pay $15/mo on a $200 dvr. And still have to keep paying.

You might be able to resell your old dvd for $100. And thus your cash outlay after 2 years would be $460.

If you spent $700 to get that $200 dvd with lifetime and resold it after 2 years for $300 (conservative estimate) then you'd be out $400.

If you use code PLSR you get that $200 dvr with lifetime for $600. And you'd only be out $300 after reselling it 2 years later.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> AFter 2 years you will spend $560 if you pay $15/mo on a $200 dvr. And still have to keep paying.
> 
> You might be able to resell your old dvd for $100. And thus your cash outlay after 2 years would be $460.
> 
> ...


The idea of reselling it for say $300 after a couple of years, just doesn't make sense to me either, because I personally wouldn't buy a 2 year old piece of electronic gear that sold for $200 brand new , with the "promise" of a lifetime of free service, when I could buy a brand new product for a much lower price with a warranty and just pay $15 a month. For example, let's say I buy a 2 year old Roamio with lifetime from someone for say $300 and a month later, it fails. Now what, unless I have it repaired, the lifetime service is worthless because it is now no longer valid. The idea just doesn't appeal to me, especially when I know all the things that can fail in electronic gear, having been involved in that industry.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Captainbob said:


> The idea of reselling it for say $300 after a couple of years, just doesn't make sense to me either, because I personally wouldn't buy a 2 year old piece of electronic gear that sold for $200 brand new , with the "promise" of a lifetime of free service, when I could buy a brand new product for a much lower price with a warranty and just pay $15 a month. For example, let's say I buy a 2 year old Roamio with lifetime from someone for say $300 and a month later, it fails. Now what, unless I have it repaired, the lifetime service is worthless because it is now no longer valid. The idea just doesn't appeal to me, especially when I know all the things that can fail in electronic gear, having been involved in that industry.


As it has already been discussed, the majority of Tivo failures are due to failed hard drives. These are easily replaced and configured, especially on the latest Tivos. Therefore, your lifetime Tivo will stay up and running as long as you keep a working drive in it.

If you buy a Tivo, get lifetime service if you plan to keep it for more than a few years. It will pay for itself in the long run. Resale value will be considerably less than what you paid for it, but it will also be considerably more than a Tivo without lifetime.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

CPT, that is a perfectly logical and reasonable argument - many people follow the same path.

Experience has shown many of us that the stability of the TiVo platform and value in the lifetime service brings more value to us in the long term.

I just sold 2 TiVo S3 models (2 generations old) for $200 each. So when we do the math on total cost of ownership we generally calculate the residual value at end of life.

A TiVo without service has very little residual value, a last gen TiVo with lifetime service generally maintains the total value of the cost of that service ($400 to $500 for a lifetime Premiere.)

You got a good box and I am sure you will be happy with it. The community just wanted you to know that you did have another option in the Base TiVo as well.

What you find on this board is any limitations on functionality will be look upon negatively - and when TiVo remove mini support from the OTA box - it isn't getting a lot of love!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> That was about you saying it made sense for TiVo to drop Mini support because they were coming out with a Roku app.  Nothing to do with Aereo.


Sorry, I took it as my whole thoughts on the subject had no logic to them. My bad. I still do believe that TiVo doesn't care if it supports mini on the OTA model, since they're planning on device apps and marketing to the cord cutters who live on gaming consoles, Roku, FTV, etc with tuners like STV and Tablo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Captainbob said:


> The idea of reselling it for say $300 after a couple of years, just doesn't make sense to me either, because I personally wouldn't buy a 2 year old piece of electronic gear that sold for $200 brand new , with the "promise" of a lifetime of free service, when I could buy a brand new product for a much lower price with a warranty and just pay $15 a month. For example, let's say I buy a 2 year old Roamio with lifetime from someone for say $300 and a month later, it fails. Now what, unless I have it repaired, the lifetime service is worthless because it is now no longer valid. The idea just doesn't appeal to me, especially when I know all the things that can fail in electronic gear, having been involved in that industry.


People will still pay $300 for 4+ year old TiVos with lifetime. TiVos don't really change frequently, hardware wise. And TiVo is still releasing software updates for the last generation hardware, which was released in March 2010. They do eventually EOL hardware, but with a Premiere or newer the chances are lower because they now have MSO partners using that hardware and they expect it to keep working for a decade or more.

That being said I'm not 100% sure if lifetime on a Roamio is a good investment. There are changes coming to the cable landscape and it's possible that in a few years CableCARDs will no longer be supported. If that happens then the resale value of a TiVo with lifetime will likely be $0. Unless TiVo can figure out a way to support the new systems in software, which is a big unknown at this point.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> That being said I'm not 100% sure if lifetime on a Roamio is a good investment. There are changes coming to the cable landscape and it's possible that in a few years CableCARDs will no longer be supported. If that happens then the resale value of a TiVo with lifetime will likely be $0. Unless TiVo can figure out a way to support the new systems in software, which is a big unknown at this point.


Cable companies don't like investing money in new hardware. The cable companies have so many of their own boxes deployed with CableCards in them due to the FCC's integration ban, that I think CableCards will probably still be supported for many years to come.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The waiver Charter has allows them to stop deploying new CableCARDs if they develop a downloadable system that is available in at least one retail device. 

So while they will likely continue to support existing CableCARDs for a long time, if they are allowed to stop issuing new ones then a used TiVo that requires a CableCARD is still worthless to most people.


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## Davisadm (Jan 19, 2008)

I just listened to interview with Tom Rogers. Trish Regan, the host, seemed completely clueless as to how broadcasting over the air works or what is the new Roamio OTA. I thought correspondents prepare themselves for interviews. Tom didn't come off too bad, and did his best to not get too frustrated.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah she didn't even have a basic understanding of the technology or the existing laws. She just assumed that because they were marketing to Aereo users that they were doing something similar to Aereo.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Cable companies don't like investing money in new hardware. The cable companies have so many of their own boxes deployed with CableCards in them due to the FCC's integration ban, that I think CableCards will probably still be supported for many years to come.


Heck, TimeWarnerCable is still deploying pre-cablecard boxes to people. Before my folks moved to Directv, TWC gave them SA8300HDs. (and no, they were not SA8300HDCs. I can tell the difference)


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ncted said:


> Heck, TimeWarnerCable is still deploying pre-cablecard boxes to people. Before my folks moved to Directv, TWC gave them SA8300HDs. (and no, they were not SA8300HDCs. I can tell the difference)


TWC is the absolute worst about holding on to old, outdated hardware.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> People will still pay $300 for 4+ year old TiVos with lifetime. TiVos don't really change frequently, hardware wise. And TiVo is still releasing software updates for the last generation hardware, which was released in March 2010. They do eventually EOL hardware, but with a Premiere or newer the chances are lower because they now have MSO partners using that hardware and they expect it to keep working for a decade or more.
> 
> That being said I'm not 100% sure if lifetime on a Roamio is a good investment. There are changes coming to the cable landscape and it's possible that in a few years CableCARDs will no longer be supported. If that happens then the resale value of a TiVo with lifetime will likely be $0. Unless TiVo can figure out a way to support the new systems in software, which is a big unknown at this point.


That is precisely my point. Not only is the technology changing rapidly, but the way people are watching TV is also changing. For the first time streaming with Netflix has passed HBO, and the cable and Dish companies expect that more and more people will turn to streaming as an alternative way to watch TV.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Captainbob said:


> That is precisely my point. Not only is the technology changing rapidly, but the way people are watching TV is also changing. For the first time streaming with Netflix has passed HBO, and the cable and Dish companies expect that more and more people will turn to streaming as an alternative way to watch TV.


That's all largely irrelevant. As pointed out above, the main issue is CableCard technology. As long as CableCards are still available, a used TiVo will always have value because they can always be used to replace a MSO's set-top box and eliminate the rental fee for it. Once CableCards go away, then a TiVo will be worthless.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah I bought lifetime this time around mainly out of convenience for myself, not because of any inherent value. For the first time I feel like there is nothing more, hardware wise, I'd want from a TiVo so I'll likely keep the Roamio for a very long time.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Captainbob said:


> The idea of reselling it for say $300 after a couple of years, just doesn't make sense to me either, because I personally wouldn't buy a 2 year old piece of electronic gear that sold for $200 brand new , with the "promise" of a lifetime of free service, when I could buy a brand new product for a much lower price with a warranty and just pay $15 a month. For example, let's say I buy a 2 year old Roamio with lifetime from someone for say $300 and a month later, it fails. Now what, unless I have it repaired, the lifetime service is worthless because it is now no longer valid. The idea just doesn't appeal to me, especially when I know all the things that can fail in electronic gear, having been involved in that industry.


It's irrelevant whether you would buy the used tivo. Many others will buy it so the market is there for you to resell yours. You are still free to buy the new tivo with lifetime service and a warranty.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Once CableCards go away, then a TiVo will be worthless.


This only applies to cable only Tivo's. Tivo's with ota tuners will still be very useful (maybe even more so than today).


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

moedaman said:


> This only applies to cable only Tivo's. Tivo's with ota tuners will still be very useful (maybe even more so than today).


True. I forget about that because I have a Plus. And I guess technically it won't be completely worthless. You can always salvage the hard drive which has to be worth at least a few bucks.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

moedaman said:


> This only applies to cable only Tivo's. Tivo's with ota tuners will still be very useful (maybe even more so than today).


And they will be selling brand new OTA Tivos for $50.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> The idea of reselling it for say $300 after a couple of years, just doesn't make sense to me either, because I personally wouldn't buy a 2 year old piece of electronic gear that sold for $200 brand new , with the "promise" of a lifetime of free service, when I could buy a brand new product for a much lower price with a warranty and just pay $15 a month. For example, let's say I buy a 2 year old Roamio with lifetime from someone for say $300 and a month later, it fails. Now what, unless I have it repaired, the lifetime service is worthless because it is now no longer valid. The idea just doesn't appeal to me, especially when I know all the things that can fail in electronic gear, having been involved in that industry.


Hey you don't have to be a buyer of used goods to recognize there is a market for them.

People buy used Tivos with lifetime. IN 2 years $300 for a used 6 tuner dvr won't be much compared to what the cable company is likely to be charging to rent them per month even if the Roamio is no longer the "best" in its class. And support for cable card isn't going away anytime soon because of the sheer number of cable card boxes in the wild and because of how slow cable companies move. There will legacy support of cable cards for years after their replacements come along.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> That is precisely my point. Not only is the technology changing rapidly, but the way people are watching TV is also changing. For the first time streaming with Netflix has passed HBO, and the cable and Dish companies expect that more and more people will turn to streaming as an alternative way to watch TV.


Cablecard isn't going anywhere in 2 years. Too many boxes in the field. No standard currently in place to replace it. It is likely to be supported for long after a new security standard is in place.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> Cablecard isn't going anywhere in 2 years. Too many boxes in the field. No standard currently in place to replace it. It is likely to be supported for long after a new security standard is in place.


Given the glacial rate at which cable companies change anything, 2 years is pretty pessimistic.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah I bought lifetime this time around mainly out of convenience for myself, not because of any inherent value. For the first time I feel like there is nothing more, hardware wise, I'd want from a TiVo so I'll likely keep the Roamio for a very long time.


Agreed. When I buy an electronic box, the last thing I think about is how much I can sell it for xxyears later.

When my kid couldn't decide which gaming system he wanted, PS4 or Xbox1 I settled it by giving him the first $100 towards his purchase and told him he was responsible for the rest.

Care to guess which one he went for? I give you hint, it wasn't the one he MIGHT get more money for unloading it on eBay in a couple of years.

Same reason why I went with the Genie over the Romio. If I could lease a gaming system, I would.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> The waiver Charter has allows them to stop deploying new CableCARDs if they develop a downloadable system that is available in at least one retail device.
> 
> So while they will likely continue to support existing CableCARDs for a long time, if they are allowed to stop issuing new ones then a used TiVo that requires a CableCARD is still worthless to most people.


Ok you're right. If they are allowed to stop issuing new ones then it could spell trouble for the used tivo market.

But by the same token Tivo could allow you a discount on new lifetime service if you own an old lifetime box.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> Cablecard isn't going anywhere in 2 years. Too many boxes in the field. No standard currently in place to replace it. It is likely to be supported for long after a new security standard is in place.


You'd be surprised how fast they can move when it means billions of dollars in their pockets.

I'm not saying they are going to do away with CC the day after Senate votes to repeal the integration ban, but you you can bet the house that the MSO's already have a plan in mind and will not be offering CC's in any new "installation".


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> You'd be surprised how fast they can move when it means billions of dollars in their pockets.
> 
> I'm not saying they are going to do away with CC the day after Senate votes to repeal the integration ban, but you you can bet the house that the MSO's already have a plan in mind and will not be offering CC's in any new "installation".


The end of cable card doesn't mean billions in their pockets. Where do you get that from?

It will mean cheaper and smaller cable boxes in the long run and thus a better product for the consumer. But it isn't a direct money maker and there is little incentive for them to replace existing boxes in the wild.

It's going to be slow going. cable companies do everything slow. I don't know of anything they do fast.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

CableCARDs have been a support nightmare for MSOs. I'm sure they'll dump support for retail CableCARD devices as soon as they are allowed.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> The end of cable card doesn't mean billions in their pockets. Where do you get that from?
> 
> It will mean cheaper and smaller cable boxes in the long run and thus a better product for the consumer. But it isn't a direct money maker and there is little incentive for them to replace existing boxes in the wild.
> 
> It's going to be slow going. cable companies do everything slow. I don't know of anything they do fast.


According to what I've read, CC's add about $60 to the cost of a cable box.

Do the math. Do you think they are really going to pass that down to the consumer?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> According to what I've read, CC's add about $60 to the cost of a cable box.
> 
> Do the math. Do you think they are really going to pass that down to the consumer?


Some of it will pass down to the consumer.

And the cheapest thing to do for the cable company is to not replace boxes already out in the field and keep customers from upgrading as long as possible.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> CableCARDs have been a support nightmare for MSOs. I'm sure they'll dump support for retail CableCARD devices as soon as they are allowed.


What does that mean though? Support for new cc installs? I can see that. But given all the cc boxes out there I can't see any reason why your Roamio wouldn't work years after they roll out the 1st cc-less box in your region.

And while support might be a nightmare, I don't think it is that big of a concern considering the relatively small scale cc has reached in retail devices.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> According to what I've read, CC's add about $60 to the cost of a cable box.
> 
> Do the math. Do you think they are really going to pass that down to the consumer?


If so than that is easily over a billion dollars extra they had to pay out for cable cards. Or are cable card DVR numbers really low?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> What does that mean though? Support for new installs? I can see that. But your cable card device will keep working for years after they launch their first cable card-less device in your region.
> 
> They won't be in a hurry to replace boxes.


I agree that existing CableCARDs will likely continue to work for a decade or more. But if you're selling to someone else they're going to need a card, and if they can't get one then the resale market drops through the floor.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> I agree that existing CableCARDs will likely continue to work for a decade or more. But if you're selling to someone else they're going to need a card, and if they can't get one then the resale market drops through the floor.


Well let's pray they still work and none of us move.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Banker257 said:


> For $50 they'll sell more to people looking for spare parts.


Yeah, probably.



Dan203 said:


> I agree that existing CableCARDs will likely continue to work for a decade or more. But if you're selling to someone else they're going to need a card, and if they can't get one then the resale market drops through the floor.


Charter could screw some users over, since they have little competitive exposure, but Charter just isn't that big. If Comcast/TWC goes through, and Comcast ends up providing tech for Greatland and BHN, they end up dictating technology for a humongous chunk of the US market. Even if Greatland and BHN follow Charter technologically and inherit their war on CableCards as a result, Comcast itself is massive, and except for part of NYC metro will hold almost all the competitive exposure to FIOS to RCN. Comcast seems to love TiVo, and TiVo loves Comcast, so the resale value will be just fine with those three providers plus a handful of other smaller providers that aren't Charter/BHN/Greatland.



Captainbob said:


> Obviously he meant that the reception of a higher quality signal ( uncompressed), is better with the Tivo than with either Aereo, Cable or Dish, which is very true, since they are all compressed. Just semantics. I personally have noticed that the tuners in my Roamio, on the OTA signal, are better performing than the tuner in my HDTV, which I found very surprising. I get about 5 more channels with the Roamio unit, than I did with HDTV tuner.


He was quite a bit off on several points. 100 channels? LOL. Basically 5 or 6 anyone wants. In terms of the compression, that's BS at this point. It's all over the map, and probably different from market to market and MSO to MSO for sake of comparison. It used to be the case, but now the best signals are often on cable, FIOS, or satellite, as they all have direct fiber feeds, and compress themselves, whereas the broadcasters compress the living crap out of their signals to get more subchannels.

And a pencil antenna is a joke for a lot of people. Most people will need at least an indoor antenna, if not an outdoor one.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Bigg said:


> Yeah, probably.
> 
> He was quite a bit off on several points. 100 channels? LOL. Basically 5 or 6 anyone wants. In terms of the compression, that's BS at this point. It's all over the map, and probably different from market to market and MSO to MSO for sake of comparison. It used to be the case, but now the best signals are often on cable, FIOS, or satellite, as they all have direct fiber feeds, and compress themselves, whereas the broadcasters compress the living crap out of their signals to get more subchannels.
> 
> And a pencil antenna is a joke for a lot of people. Most people will need at least an indoor antenna, if not an outdoor one.


You live in a different world than I do apparently, because my experience both at home and at work indicates that OTA signals are very often superior to Cable and Satellite signals which are usually compressed signals, and this is something that I work with all the time using UHD TVs and OLED TVs and video projectors that run into the tens of thousands of dollars. One can easily see the difference. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4691553


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> If so than that is easily over a billion dollars extra they had to pay out for cable cards. Or are cable card DVR numbers really low?


" The commission adopted the integration ban with the best of intentions, but the end result has not been good for consumers. By forcing cable companies to include CableCARD technology in their equipment, the FCC has increased consumers cable bills. Specifically, *the integration ban adds about $56 to the cost of each set-top box*, hiking the monthly rental fees charged to customers. We havent heard anyone complaining lately that they are paying too little for cable service. So regulators should prioritize measures that will lower prices, not raise them.

Thats not the only harm to consumers, though. This ban is also driving up our electric bills. Based on Environmental Protection Agency figures, CableCARDs increase cable customers energy consumption by 500 million kilowatt hours each year, enough to power all the homes in Washington, D.C., for about three months. At a time when the federal government is trying to promote conservation and reduce carbon emissions, the integration ban is driving us in the opposite direction.

What have Americans received in exchange for higher cable and electric bills? Unfortunately, not much. The integration ban has done little, if anything, to create a retail market for set-top boxes. The statistics tell the tale. As of this year, *the nations largest cable companies have supplied 45 million of their own CableCARD-enabled set-top boxes to their customers. How many CableCARDs have been deployed for use in third-party retail devices? Only 606,000. *That means that less than 1.4 percent of customers are choosing to purchase their set-top boxes through the retail market. "

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ing-off-an-outdated-cable-rule/#ixzz3CROTgerF 
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> " The commission adopted the integration ban with the best of intentions, but the end result has not been good for consumers. By forcing cable companies to include CableCARD technology in their equipment, the FCC has increased consumers cable bills. Specifically, *the integration ban adds about $56 to the cost of each set-top box*, hiking the monthly rental fees charged to customers. We havent heard anyone complaining lately that they are paying too little for cable service. So regulators should prioritize measures that will lower prices, not raise them.
> 
> Thats not the only harm to consumers, though. This ban is also driving up our electric bills. Based on Environmental Protection Agency figures, CableCARDs increase cable customers energy consumption by 500 million kilowatt hours each year, enough to power all the homes in Washington, D.C., for about three months. At a time when the federal government is trying to promote conservation and reduce carbon emissions, the integration ban is driving us in the opposite direction.
> 
> ...


The funny thing about all of this is that there is evidence that cable companies aren't passing on the savings of an integrated set top box to their customers. Surprised?

Also, TiVo has published data that shows CableCARD compliance and support drops when the FCC's enforcement powers are minimized.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

sbiller said:


> The funny thing about all of this is that there is evidence that cable companies aren't passing on the savings of an integrated set top box to their customers. Surprised?
> 
> Also, TiVo has published data that shows CableCARD compliance and support drops when the FCC's enforcement powers are minimized.


I'm not surprised at all. I'm not a fan of legal monopolies, but Cable has a lot more competition today then when the Integration Ban went into effect.

606,000 is pretty insignificant number for the FCC to cater to. They've had 10 years to build a competing product to Big Cable and IMO have failed miserably.

1.4% of the set top box market is not going to keep the ban in place.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Captainbob said:


> And they will be selling brand new OTA Tivos for $50.


You forgot the $15 per month fee. A used Tivo with lifetime has no fees. A lot of people would rather pay $300 for a used Tivo w/lifetime than $50 plus $15 forever. I myself have bought three used Tivo's that all work great and are used every day. I wouldn't pay $45 per month for three Tivo's ($60 if you include the new purchase Premiere).

I paid a total of $425 for the three used machines (80gb Series 2, Tivo HD w/1tb hdd and a 320gb Premiere).


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

moedaman said:


> You forgot the $15 per month fee. A used Tivo with lifetime has no fees. A lot of people would rather pay $300 for a used Tivo w/lifetime than $50 plus $15 forever. I myself have bought three used Tivo's that all work great and are used every day. I wouldn't pay $45 per month for three Tivo's ($60 if you include the new purchase Premiere).
> 
> I paid a total of $425 for the three used machines (80gb Series 2, Tivo HD w/1tb hdd and a 320gb Premiere).


They are not offering Lifetime on the OTA's. Also, no Mini support so if you want to hook up 3 TV's you will need 3 boxes for $150 and $45 a month in service fees.

That's a lot of Money for "free" TV. I just don't see many cord cutters going for that monthly fee.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

moedaman said:


> You forgot the $15 per month fee. A used Tivo with lifetime has no fees. A lot of people would rather pay $300 for a used Tivo w/lifetime than $50 plus $15 forever. I myself have bought three used Tivo's that all work great and are used every day. I wouldn't pay $45 per month for three Tivo's ($60 if you include the new purchase Premiere).
> 
> I paid a total of $425 for the three used machines (80gb Series 2, Tivo HD w/1tb hdd and a 320gb Premiere).


My career has been and is in the electronics business. I have never, in well over 5 decades, bought a piece of used electronic gear, especially something that is a few years old. In today's tech market which is evolving constantly, in my opinion that's like buying a 20 year old auto as-is.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Captainbob said:


> My career has been and is in the electronics business. I have never, in well over 5 decades, bought a piece of used electronic gear, especially something that is a few years old. In today's tech market which is evolving constantly, in my opinion that's like buying a 20 year old auto as-is.


You've obviously not had much interest in high end audio. There's a huge demand for older electronics, especially some of the older tube-type Marantz and McIntosh gear. It may not have the same capabilities as the newer AV hardware with respect to switching, surround sound, connectivity, etc., but people that buy this stuff are more interested in sound quality over home theater functionality. I'm using monoblock amps in my system that are at least 35 years old and still going strong.

I've bought lots of used high end audio gear over the last 4 or 5 decades and never regretted it. You pay through the nose for it new, but generally can get it for a fraction of the original cost when buying used. Most audio gear doesn't deteriorate with extended use, but you might have to replace a few tubes with some of the more classic gear. A 20-year old auto can still be a good value if it's been maintained properly so that's not really a valid comparison. I drive a 15-year old car and it still runs great because I maintain it.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> You've obviously not had much interest in high end audio. There's a huge demand for older electronics, especially some of the older tube-type Marantz and McIntosh gear. It may not have the same capabilities as the newer AV hardware with respect to switching, surround sound, connectivity, etc., but people that buy this stuff are more interested in sound quality over home theater functionality. I'm using monoblock amps in my system that are at least 35 years old and still going strong.
> 
> I've bought lots of used high end audio gear over the last 4 or 5 decades and never regretted it. You pay through the nose for it new, but generally can get it for a fraction of the original cost when buying used. Most audio gear doesn't deteriorate with extended use, but you might have to replace a few tubes with some of the more classic gear. A 20-year old auto can still be a good value if it's been maintained properly so that's not really a valid comparison. I drive a 15-year old car and it still runs great because I maintain it.


I repaired high end audio components a few decades ago and ran a shop for awhile that specialized in repair of many of the best brands. Caps dry up, transformers fail, tubes and controls and safety components are NLA. Once you spend time repairing things, and you see what goes bad, you aren't interested in purchasing something that you will probably wind up having to fix. In todays world, with the economics of component repairing, when something breaks, it goes in the dumpster and get's replaced. I trained Component level technicians for about 20 years, and the job outlook for a component level tech today is vanishing at a rapid rate, because of disposable products.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

That pretty well sums up today's electronics. Everything is boiled down to LSICs and specialty components as well as being mostly surface mount stuff that can be easily mass produced. Repair isn't even an option on a lot of this stuff, which makes the older gear even more attractive. Components for many of the more popular high end brands are readily available from specialty sources, especially tubes. As with many types of electronic components, they get replaced with newer technology and the supply of existing components for repairs eventually dries up unless someone decides it's a viable market to produce them, albeit at premium prices.

You can certainly get a lot of bang for the buck with today's electronics, especially when it comes to home theater components. I used to have a huge audio cabinet with about 15 different components to cover all aspects of home theater as it existed at the time. Today, I have a single preamp/processor with surround processing and HDMI switching that puts just about everything but the amplifiers and source components in a single chassis. All of my source components are in a HTPC and tied to a network server with about 36TB of storage and growing.

The only other component is a standalone turntable, but the cantilever on the moving coil cartridge gave up the ghost and I haven't had a chance to get it repaired.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Banker257 said:


> I'm not surprised at all. I'm not a fan of legal monopolies, but Cable has a lot more competition today then when the Integration Ban went into effect.
> 
> 606,000 is pretty insignificant number for the FCC to cater to. They've had 10 years to build a competing product to Big Cable and IMO have failed miserably.
> 
> 1.4% of the set top box market is not going to keep the ban in place.


The main reason the integration ban failed is because of cable company incompetence. The purpose of the integration ban was to make the process of setting up a retail CableCARD device the same as setting up a MSO supplied box. But that's not how it works. The cable companies preinstall the cards in their own boxes and preauthorize them with their system, so setup for the installer is no different then an integrated box. When it came time to install a CableCARD in a retail device many installers had no idea how to even do it, and the people at the head end were equally as clueless. So the experience for the user was frustrating, often times ending with the installer leaving without properly setting it up and claiming it was a bad card or a problem with the device. These days the process is usually pretty painless, but not always. And it took them nearly a decade to figure it out so by then the only CanleCARD device left on the retail market was TiVo. (And a few HTPC tuners) Had they actually followed the spirit of the law and made the setup process for the CableCARDs the same in both retail and supplied boxes, and had they properly trained their techs how to install them, then we'd be living in a very different world. They purposely drug their feet, made the process as complex as possible, and screwed up the while system because they didn't want there to be retail competition. And it worked!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> The main reason the integration ban failed is because of cable company incompetence. The purpose of the integration ban was to make the process of setting up a retail CableCARD device the same as setting up a MSO supplied box. But that's not how it works. The cable companies preinstall the cards in their own boxes and preauthorize them with their system, so setup for the installer is no different then an integrated box. When it came time to install a CableCARD in a retail device many installers had no idea how to even do it, and the people at the head end were equally as clueless. So the experience for the user was frustrating, often times ending with the installer leaving without properly setting it up and claiming it was a bad card or a problem with the device. These days the process is usually pretty painless, but not always. And it took them nearly a decade to figure it out so by then the only CanleCARD device left on the retail market was TiVo. (And a few HTPC tuners) Had they actually followed the spirit of the law and made the setup process for the CableCARDs the same in both retail and supplied boxes, and had they properly trained their techs how to install them, then we'd be living in a very different world. They purposely drug their feet, made the process as complex as possible, and screwed up the while system because they didn't want there to be retail competition. And it worked!


Well said and on point Dan!


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> The main reason the integration ban failed is because of cable company incompetence. The purpose of the integration ban was to make the process of setting up a retail CableCARD device the same as setting up a MSO supplied box. But that's not how it works. The cable companies preinstall the cards in their own boxes and preauthorize them with their system, so setup for the installer is no different then an integrated box. When it came time to install a CableCARD in a retail device many installers had no idea how to even do it, and the people at the head end were equally as clueless. So the experience for the user was frustrating, often times ending with the installer leaving without properly setting it up and claiming it was a bad card or a problem with the device. These days the process is usually pretty painless, but not always. And it took them nearly a decade to figure it out so by then the only CanleCARD device left on the retail market was TiVo. (And a few HTPC tuners) Had they actually followed the spirit of the law and made the setup process for the CableCARDs the same in both retail and supplied boxes, and had they properly trained their techs how to install them, then we'd be living in a very different world. They purposely drug their feet, made the process as complex as possible, and screwed up the while system because they didn't want there to be retail competition. And it worked!


I agree, but I think there is more to it than that. I think up front cost is the major factor. Not many want to pay $400 for a box up front. and then still pay $15/mo.

Free and works with no worries is more attractive than $400 for the vast majority of people.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> The main reason the integration ban failed is because of cable company incompetence. The purpose of the integration ban was to make the process of setting up a retail CableCARD device the same as setting up a MSO supplied box. But that's not how it works. The cable companies preinstall the cards in their own boxes and preauthorize them with their system, so setup for the installer is no different then an integrated box. When it came time to install a CableCARD in a retail device many installers had no idea how to even do it, and the people at the head end were equally as clueless. So the experience for the user was frustrating, often times ending with the installer leaving without properly setting it up and claiming it was a bad card or a problem with the device. These days the process is usually pretty painless, but not always. And it took them nearly a decade to figure it out so by then the only CanleCARD device left on the retail market was TiVo. (And a few HTPC tuners) Had they actually followed the spirit of the law and made the setup process for the CableCARDs the same in both retail and supplied boxes, and had they properly trained their techs how to install them, then we'd be living in a very different world. They purposely drug their feet, made the process as complex as possible, and screwed up the while system because they didn't want there to be retail competition. And it worked!


I respectfully disagree. I've had TiVo's with Cablevision, TiVo with TWC and TiVo with FIOS. I never had a problem with CC installation or performance.

The reason I chose to leave TiVo was strictly for financial reasons. I'm positive I'm not the only one.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

So, I was just reading the CNET article on the OTA:

http://www.cnet.com/products/tivo-roamio-ota/

and I found this:

"The TiVo Roamio OTA will also work with a TiVo Mini ($85 + fees), allowing you share the antenna connection and recorded shows with other TVs within the home."

What confirmation do we have that the Mini will not work with the OTA?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Banker257 said:


> I respectfully disagree. I've had TiVo's with Cablevision, TiVo with TWC and TiVo with FIOS. I never had a problem with CC installation or performance. The reason I chose to leave TiVo was strictly for financial reasons. I'm positive I'm not the only one.


You may not be the only one, but you're certainly the minority for anyone that's used cablecards for awhile!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

ncted said:


> So, I was just reading the CNET article on the OTA: http://www.cnet.com/products/tivo-roamio-ota/ and I found this: "The TiVo Roamio OTA will also work with a TiVo Mini ($85 + fees), allowing you share the antenna connection and recorded shows with other TVs within the home." What confirmation do we have that the Mini will not work with the OTA?


TiVo Margret tweeted the mistake I believe.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

ncted said:


> So, I was just reading the CNET article on the OTA:
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/products/tivo-roamio-ota/
> 
> ...


TiVo Margaret confirmed here that it won't work with the Mini and if you go to the TiVo page they claim it will work with the Stream. Nothing about the Mini and nothing about lifetime.

http://www.tivo.com/discover/antenna


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

HarperVision said:


> You may not be the only one, but you're certainly the minority for anyone that's used cablecards for awhile!


What issues have you had with Cable Cards that anyone that WANTS to overcome couldn't?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Banker257 said:


> What issues have you had with Cable Cards that anyone that WANTS to overcome couldn't?


Just because you overcome them, doesn't mean they weren't issues. Many many times it certainly wasn't as you imply by just calling in, pairing, and done with ALL channels working 100%. I've had to assist and educate just about every CSR I called or talked to in person on cablecards and how they need to be setup, going back to the very first generations of S-Cards. I would put it at maybe 10% success rate on the times I've tried to pair cards correctly on the first try.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

HarperVision said:


> Just because you overcome them, doesn't mean they weren't issues. Many many times it certainly wasn't as you imply by just calling in, pairing, and done with ALL channels working 100%. I've had to assist and educate just about every CSR I called or talked to in person on cablecards and how they need to be setup, going back to the very first generations of S-Cards. I would put it at maybe 10% success rate on the times I've tried to pair cards correctly on the first try.


Once again, I never had a problem installing a Cable Card and I never had a problem with the Cable Card after installation with 3 different systems.

Even when TiVo tried to blame FIOS for my brand new Premiere crashing and rebooting twice a day.

I can't be the only one of the 600,000 that's been that lucky. 

Now, if you want to talk Tuning Adaptet, I don't know, never had one.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Banker257 said:


> TiVo Margaret confirmed here that it won't work with the Mini and if you go to the TiVo page they claim it will work with the Stream. Nothing about the Mini and nothing about lifetime.
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/discover/antenna


OK. Yeah, this thing is definitely not worth it then.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

ncted said:


> OK. Yeah, this thing is definitely not worth it then.


Depends on how you look at it. If you don't have to sign up for service at point of purchase, I can see people buying one of these for parts, mostly the HD alone. That's got to be worth $50 right there!

TiVo gets a "sub" to appease their shareholders and the "sub" gets a cheap part box!

A win win!! Genius!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo only get's the sub when you sign up for service. I'm not sure if TiVo makes you sign up for service on the spot or not, not sure if that's possible. Maybe it is and that's why it's exclusive to BestBuy?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> Once again, I never had a problem installing a Cable Card and I never had a problem with the Cable Card after installation with 3 different systems.
> 
> Even when TiVo tried to blame FIOS for my brand new Premiere crashing and rebooting twice a day.
> 
> I can't be the only one of the 600,000 that's been that lucky.


The issue is not whether or not you are the only person who experienced no problems, it's whether or not it's typical.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> The issue is not whether or not you are the only person who experienced no problems, it's whether or not it's typical.


Well yea, that's what I said!! When TiVo blames a Cable Card for crashes, reboots, and other problems, only to come out later and admit they bought hardware that didn't meet the minimum requirements of their software is NOT TYPICAL! 

Yea, It's all the Cable Cards fault!!


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I actually think Steve Jobs said it best when it comes to the (lack of) success of the set top market:






The cablecard and support issues would have resolved themselves if there was actual demand for the equipment to begin with, which I don't really believe there was.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I actually think Steve Jobs said it best when it comes to the (lack of) success of the set top market:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a market demand for alternatives to the cable companies' STB, but it is very weak and only able to (maybe) support 1 player, which is TiVo.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Bigg said:


> He was quite a bit off on several points. 100 channels? LOL. Basically 5 or 6 anyone wants.


Once again, Bigg assumes that his tastes and preferences represent everyone.

100 channels *is* laughable. So is 5 or 6. I regularly record stuff from 8 locals and that's not even counting local sub-channels. And that's just me. There are two other people in the household, one of whom is a native Spanish speaker.

BTW, I wouldn't recommend this product nor do I expect it to succeed.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Banker257 said:


> They are not offering Lifetime on the OTA's. Also, no Mini support so if you want to hook up 3 TV's you will need 3 boxes for $150 and $45 a month in service fees.


If you're foolish enough to buy one of these crippled models. But I'm not and I don't think that Tivo will eliminate the current 4-tuner Roamio and just keep the ota model.



> That's a lot of Money for "free" TV. I just don't see many cord cutters going for that monthly fee.


I don't either.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> Well yea, that's what I said!! When TiVo blames a Cable Card for crashes, reboots, and other problems, only to come out later and admit they bought hardware that didn't meet the minimum requirements of their software is NOT TYPICAL!
> 
> Yea, It's all the Cable Cards fault!!


That's BS. For the most part, the problems experienced with CableCARDs are due to the Cable co, not TiVo.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

If you live in the LA or Bay areas, 80-100 channels is entirely real. I'm not speaking to quality, just the number.

Or if you live where I do, you get 3.... two of which are PBS and the other is a local indy that runs paid programming and Judge Judy syndication all day.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I actually think Steve Jobs said it best when it comes to the (lack of) success of the set top market:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more. It all comes down to product, cost and convenience.

TiVo has one of those, maybe...


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> That's BS. For the most part, the problems experienced with CableCARDs are due to the Cable co, not TiVo.


What's BS? That most people have no problem with CC installation or the Premiere was released with MAJOR issues they blamed on Cable Cards, internet connections and tuning apadpters?

You keep moving the goalposts!

All I'm saying is I never had a problem with a CC and I'm willing to bet I'm not in the minority.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> Once again, I never had a problem installing a Cable Card and I never had a problem with the Cable Card after installation with 3 different systems.
> 
> Even when TiVo tried to blame FIOS for my brand new Premiere crashing and rebooting twice a day.
> 
> ...


How long ago was it? I had issues with Comcast in 2006 with cable cards and with FiOS in 2007. By 2009/2010 things were better dealing with cable cards. And by 2013 things had improved even more.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> If you live in the LA or Bay areas, 80-100 channels is entirely real. I'm not speaking to quality, just the number.
> 
> Or if you live where I do, you get 3.... two of which are PBS and the other is a local indy that runs paid programming and Judge Judy syndication all day.


Will you pay $15 a month for those 3 channels?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Banker257 said:


> What's BS? That most people have no problem with CC installation or the Premiere was released with MAJOR issues they blamed on Cable Cards, internet connections and tuning apadpters?
> 
> You keep moving the goalposts!
> 
> All I'm saying is I never had a problem with a CC and I'm willing to bet I'm not in the minority.


The whole thing is BS, including the above.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> How long ago was it? I had issues with Comcast in 2006 with cable cards and with FiOS in 2007. By 2009/2010 things were better dealing with cable cards. And by 2013 things had improved even more.


2009 or 10. Point is, wasn't the Cable Card, was the Premiere. I still remember the conference call between me, TiVo and FIOS support and the FIOS tech and I laughing at the TIvo CSR while he went through his script for the 3rd time.

"Ok, Sir, please pull the plug out of the wall outlet...".


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Banker257 said:


> Will you pay $15 a month for those 3 channels?


Course not.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> The whole thing is BS, including the above.


Lol. I guess I was just lucky!


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Course not.


Not even since you'll only need one box?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Banker257 said:


> 2009 or 10. Point is, wasn't the Cable Card, was the Premiere. I still remember the conference call between me, TiVo and FIOS support and the FIOS tech and I laughing at the TIvo CSR while he went through his script for the 3rd time.
> 
> "Ok, Sir, please pull the plug out of the wall outlet...".


People had the same problems with S3 units, Ceton cards, HDHomeRuns, TVs with built in CableCARD slots, etc...

The problem is that the CSRs and installers were never properly trained to install CableCARDs. And the whole process is very finicky. The box you rent from the cable company also has a CableCARD in it, but it's setup and authorized before it leaves the door. The whole system was a huge kludge in the first place and was complicated further by poor training of cable employees and the addition of SDV which required tuning adapters.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> People had the same problems with S3 units, Ceton cards, HDHomeRuns, TVs with built in CableCARD slots, etc...
> 
> The problem is that the CSRs and installers were never properly trained to install CableCARDs. And the whole process is very finicky. The box you rent from the cable company also has a CableCARD in it, but it's setup and authorized before it leaves the door. The whole system was a huge kludge in the first place and was complicated further by poor training of cable employees and the addition of SDV which required tuning adapters.


I know what your saying, I really do, but I'm telling you the CC INSTALL was painless and trouble free.

The CC blame was a convienant cop out by TiVo and there are a lot of other posts on this site to back my opinion up.

I'm sure things have changed for the better with the Romio and the new OS, and if CC's really ARE the problem everyone says they are, TiVo should be more than happy to see them go and back the repeal of the integration bill instead of spouting hyperbole about how "the public needs a choice".

They've been blaming everyone and everything since day one for why they can't make a product the masses want to pay a premium for.

They really need to look at themselves and do somthing radical instead of adding a tuner and calling it innovation.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Banker257 said:


> Not even since you'll only need one box?


Can't afford it. Paying off the 45 Hercules Hooks and the 50-gallon barrel of Oxyclean I picked up from the indie channel's paid programming rotation.

BBL, they're selling a Smart Mop now. I bet the smart mop has amazon streaming.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Banker257 said:


> I know what your saying, I really do, but I'm telling you the CC INSTALL was painless and trouble free.
> 
> The CC blame was a convienant cop out by TiVo and there are a lot of other posts on this site to back my opinion up.
> 
> ...


Sometimes they're painless, sometimes they're not. I've had a TON of CCs installed over the years, sometimes they happened in minutes sometimes it took days. I had at least 4 Premiere units over the years and I don't remember having an issue with any of them. However about a year ago I got my Sister a couple of S3 HD units to replace her dying S2 units. The first one the card seemed to install OK but they could not get the premium channels to work. Had to send a tech. He shows up, calls someone on his walkie talkie and boom 30 seconds later it works. The second one, a few weeks later, same problem. They send a tech out, he spends 2 hours on the phone can't get it to work. Rewires the whole house, still can't get it to work. Says they need a new drop from the box. Two weeks go by, they replace the drop, comes back out still doesn't work. Replaces the card, still doesn't work. Finally gets someone on the phone that knows CableCARDs and boom it works. Had a similar experience myself with a S3 unit back in like 2007. It all came down to who you got on the phone and/or which installer they send out. If you get someone on the phone that knows what they're doing the self install always work. If not they send out a tech and if he knows what he's doing then he can get it working in seconds. If he doesn't then it's a nightmare.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Can't afford it. Paying off the 45 Hercules Hooks and the 50-gallon barrel of Oxyclean I picked up from the indie channel's paid programming rotation.
> 
> BBL, they're selling a Smart Mop now. I bet the smart mop has amazon streaming.


But wait! There's more!!!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Banker257 said:


> I'm sure things have changed for the better with the Romio and the new OS, and if CC's really ARE the problem everyone says they are, TiVo should be more than happy to see them go and back the repeal of the integration bill instead of spouting hyperbole about how "the public needs a choice".


The problem is before CCs there was no way for them to access the channels at all, so if the choice is between CCs and nothing you bet your a$$ they're going to fight tooth and nail to keep CCs around.

Unfortunately it looks like we're heading back to a system where each MSO has their own standard, and while it will be required to be "open" it is not required to be national, so TiVo may end up having to sell different units for different markets or create some sort of franken-box that supports them all.

That's not good for anyone.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> The issue is not whether or not you are the only person who experienced no problems, it's whether or not it's typical.


Exactly. I never said that he didn't have good experiences. What I said was, if that's the case then he's in the minority.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I just counted and I've had 12 CCs installed since 2006. I only remember 3 being an issue. And only that one I described above for my Sister was a complete disaster. Although there were some in between ones where I spent way more time on the phone then I should have.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> The problem is before CCs there was no way for them to access the channels at all, so if the choice is between CCs and nothing you bet your a$$ they're going to fight tooth and nail to keep CCs around.
> 
> Unfortunately it looks like we're heading back to a system where each MSO has their own standard, and while it will be required to be "open" *it is not required to be national*, so TiVo may end up having to sell different units for different markets or create some sort of franken-box that supports them all.
> 
> That's not good for anyone.


Or just wait a few more years for Comcast to acquire all the other cable operators in the country.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Diana Collins said:


> Or just wait a few more years for Comcast to acquire all the other cable operators in the country.


Yeah, won't THAT be just Comcastic!!!!


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Unfortunately it looks like we're heading back to a system where each MSO has their own standard, and while it will be required to be "open" it is not required to be national, so TiVo may end up having to sell different units for different markets or create some sort of franken-box that supports them all.
> 
> That's not good for anyone.


Since it's supposed to be a s/w rather than a h/w solution, no franken-box required, just different modules d/l'd and installed during guided setup. Still a support nightmare.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> Yeah, won't THAT be just Comcastic!!!!


To XFINITTY and beyond!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Captainbob said:


> You live in a different world than I do apparently, because my experience both at home and at work indicates that OTA signals are very often superior to Cable and Satellite signals which are usually compressed signals, and this is something that I work with all the time using UHD TVs and OLED TVs and video projectors that run into the tens of thousands of dollars. One can easily see the difference. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4691553


It depends on the market and the provider. It's all over the place. But to make claims like he did are basically false, since it varies so widely across the 200 or so media markets.



Banker257 said:


> Specifically, *the integration ban adds about $56 to the cost of each set-top box*, hiking the monthly rental fees charged to customers.
> 
> This ban is also driving up our electric bills. Based on Environmental Protection Agency figures, CableCARDs increase cable customers energy consumption by 500 million kilowatt hours each year, enough to power all the homes in Washington, D.C., for about three months.


Where on earth are these numbers coming from? $56 is insane for a simple thing like CableCard, and further, the concept that CableCard somehow uses significantly more power than integrated security is patently absurd. If that number is somehow based on actual STB power consumption, then that's just called really, really ****ty engineering on the STB maker's part.



Banker257 said:


> The reason I chose to leave TiVo was strictly for financial reasons. I'm positive I'm not the only one.


You must have gotten some sweet bundles or deals on your DVRs from your cable company, because with normal DVR and STB pricing, TiVo is cheaper, hands down.



lpwcomp said:


> Once again, Bigg assumes that his tastes and preferences represent everyone.
> 
> 100 channels *is* laughable. So is 5 or 6. I regularly record stuff from 8 locals and that's not even counting local sub-channels. And that's just me. There are two other people in the household, one of whom is a native Spanish speaker.
> 
> BTW, I wouldn't recommend this product nor do I expect it to succeed.


Very few people care about anything other than the big 4, PBS, and maybe the CW. The rest are junk channels. Sure, someone must watch them, or at least the broadcasters think so, but it's not many. If you count non-English language channels like Telemundo or Univision, then maybe you get to a total of 6 or 7 channels instead of 5. Still WAY short of 100.



Dan203 said:


> Unfortunately it looks like we're heading back to a system where each MSO has their own standard, and while it will be required to be "open" it is not required to be national, so TiVo may end up having to sell different units for different markets or create some sort of franken-box that supports them all.


As it is, TiVo can't support the two DBS providers, or U-Verse. FIOS is going to go IP sooner or later, so that only leaves cable and OTA. We need the gateway solution, and then let the cablecos do whatever they want on the back end of the gateway.

That being said, they could get rid of the integration ban, but still require the cable cos to issue CableCards for retail TiVos and MCE machines. Then everyone would be happy, and they already have the CableCard system running...


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Very few people care about anything other than the big 4, PBS, and maybe the CW. The rest are junk channels. Sure, someone must watch them, or at least the broadcasters think so, but it's not many.


If you have any data to support that claim, please post it or links to your source.

Before you start looking, please post what actual number is your upper limit for "not many".


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

I may have missed it trying to look over the entire thread, but I know the Romaio OTA will not support Tivo Mini, but will Roamio OTA be able to TRANSFER between boxes like the older/legacy (and current) models? If it could do that, that would be a bone to us, at least.

However, I agree: the lack of TiVo Mini support really puts a steak in the heart of real Whole Home DVR that Roamio provides. And the pricing is for the Roamio OTA is just awful with no Lifetime if one wants more than one Roamio OTA. With all that math, the more expensive Roamio wins out in the long run and provides (with accessories) Whole Home DVR functionality. Did Tom Rogers dream-up the Roamio OTA to herd people over to the Roamio? The Roamio OTA current pricing structure ensures failure while Channel Master DVR's continue to gain converts.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Bigg said:


> As it is, TiVo can't support the two DBS providers, or U-Verse. FIOS is going to go IP sooner or later, so that only leaves cable and OTA. We need the gateway solution, and then let the cablecos do whatever they want on the back end of the gateway.


FiOS *is* IPTV. It's just that when the fiber gets to the home, it is converted to CATV CableLabs spec for transmission through-out the home. They probably do this for economic reasons because of the ubiquitos, economical hardware that exists to support it. There is no reason for Verizon FiOS to change the "in home" spec. FiOS will be compatible with CATV devices, including TiVo, for a very long time.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

Series3Sub said:


> FiOS *is* IPTV. It's just that when the fiber gets to the home, it is converted to CATV CableLabs spec for transmission through-out the home. They probably do this for economic reasons because of the ubiquitos, economical hardware that exists to support it. There is no reason for Verizon FiOS to change the "in home" spec. FiOS will be compatible with CATV devices, including TiVo, for a very long time.


no, your statement is totally wrong. Fios is not ip, fios delivers QAM from SHE (super head end), to the regional VHO's then to the VSO (local video serving office) then to your home all through the fiber line. The only ip video delivery service is On demand content.


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## namwoljr (Aug 8, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> If you have any data to support that claim, please post it or links to your source.
> 
> Before you start looking, please post what actual number is your upper limit for "not many".


I think it's just common sense that sub channels showing infomercials, C movies from the 70's, and Judge Judy reruns aren't getting anywhere near the same amount of eyeballs as the Big 4 and PBS. I think you'd be more hard pressed to support your argument with data.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

namwoljr said:


> I think it's just common sense that sub channels showing infomercials, C movies from the 70's, and Judge Judy reruns aren't getting anywhere near the same amount of eyeballs as the Big 4 and PBS. I think you'd be more hard pressed to support your argument with data.


I'm not arguing that the sub-channels get as many viewers as even PBS, I am objecting to the contention that "nobody" wants them and the implication that they do not get enough viewers to be profitable. If nobody wants them, why are there multiple posts on the Comcast forum from different locations requesting MeTV?

BTW, you clearly have no idea what the sub-channels are actually showing. Does Sturgeon's Law apply? Of course. But Sturgeon's Law is universal. And one person's crap is another person's diamond.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Banker257 said:


> I respectfully disagree. I've had TiVo's with Cablevision, TiVo with TWC and TiVo with FIOS. I never had a problem with CC installation or performance.
> 
> The reason I chose to leave TiVo was strictly for financial reasons. I'm positive I'm not the only one.


YOU didn't, but tons of other people have. I've been with Comcast for years and with multiple Tivos and the SD Prime WMC tuner, and my success rate for easy card installs is roughly 75%. Comcast, just like every other cableCo (with possible exception of FIOS), has had major issues at various times with card activations.

So if you left Tivo, why are you posting here??


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Banker257 said:


> I know what your saying, I really do, but I'm telling you the CC INSTALL was painless and trouble free.
> 
> The CC blame was a convienant cop out by TiVo and there are a lot of other posts on this site to back my opinion up.
> 
> ...


You are completely, utterly full of it WRT cards. Tivo pricing is a whole different matter.

You've adopted the Bigg method of posting here - I didn't have any problems with cards so therefore cards are not a problem for everyone, and it's all Tivo's fault.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> If you have any data to support that claim, please post it or links to your source.
> 
> Before you start looking, please post what actual number is your upper limit for "not many".


Well we know the big 4 networks are some of the most watched tv channels even on cable. Everyone knows the names of those networks and the shows on them. We have heard of CW and PBS.

But ask anyone to name another OTA channel and the great content on it and ....crickets.

That's pretty telling.

Plus we all know to take the advertised number of channels that cable or satellite gives us with a grain of salt.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Well we know the big 4 networks are some of the most watched tv channels even on cable. Everyone knows the names of those networks and the shows on them. We have heard of CW and PBS.
> 
> But ask anyone to name another OTA channel and the great content on it and ....crickets.
> 
> ...


More ridiculous hyperbole. "anyone"? I'm really tired of people assuming that their own preferences and knowledge apply to everyone. Or taking the attitude "If I don't care about something, then it isn't worthwhile and nobody should care".


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> It depends on the market and the provider. It's all over the place. But to make claims like he did are basically false, since it varies so widely across the 200 or so media markets.
> 
> Where on earth are these numbers coming from? $56 is insane for a simple thing like CableCard, and further, the concept that CableCard somehow uses significantly more power than integrated security is patently absurd. If that number is somehow based on actual STB power consumption, then that's just called really, really ****ty engineering on the STB maker's part.
> 
> .............


$56 sounds low. Cable cards used to cost hundreds of dollars.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Series3Sub said:


> FiOS *is* IPTV. It's just that when the fiber gets to the home, it is converted to CATV CableLabs spec for transmission through-out the home. They probably do this for economic reasons because of the ubiquitos, economical hardware that exists to support it. There is no reason for Verizon FiOS to change the "in home" spec. FiOS will be compatible with CATV devices, including TiVo, for a very long time.


At one point Verizon had planned to be using IPTV for their system by now. But I guess they had issues or it would have cost to much and then put it on the back burner to start switching to H.264 instead. But now that has kind of been put on hold so it's anyones guess what they are doing. I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon announces the sale of all FiOS territories at some point. You never know with them. They are not happy with the good profits that FiOS can make. Verizon wants the exceptional profits that wireless can make.


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## namwoljr (Aug 8, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> More ridiculous hyperbole. "anyone"? I'm really tired of people assuming that their own preferences and knowledge apply to everyone. Or taking the attitude "If I don't care about something, then it isn't worthwhile and nobody should care".


Just curious, what programming do you watch on the sub channels? Consider this our first data point.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> More ridiculous hyperbole. "anyone"? I'm really tired of people assuming that their own preferences and knowledge apply to everyone. Or taking the attitude "If I don't care about something, then it isn't worthwhile and nobody should care".


We're talking large groups of people not random joe schmoe. Obviously anyone can like anything.

But if you're pointing out how many channels OTA has in some areas and comparing that to cable or satellite then the next question is just what are those channels besides the big 4 or 5? Just what content are they carrying?

And since no one can name those channels nor the content on them then you have to assume that the number of channels should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to this talk about OTA being anywhere near cable in terms of content.

Again we're talking large groups of people and the overall viewing habits that arise out of that. Obviously someone out there is going to like a tv channel where all they show is paint drying on walls. But trying to pass that off as another equivalent channel in addition to the big 4 tv networks is a ridiculous argument.

YOu're just another poster in a long line of them that can't name any of these other 50 or 60 OTA channels nor their great content. Yet wants to convince us that we shouldn't make any judgments about the desirability of those channels to the population at large.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

namwoljr said:


> Just curious, what programming do you watch on the sub channels? Consider this our first data point.


Mostly old TV shows and old movies. I have SP's for "Adam-12","The Man From U.N.C.L.E", and "The Adventures of Superman" on MeTV. I recently got all of the "Mr. Moto" films from a different channel. I will occasionally watch "Bonanza", "Daniel Boone", "The Rockford Files", "The Jack Benny Show", "The Burns and Allen Show", "Perry Mason", "The Twilight Zone", "Gunsmoke", "Make Room for Daddy", "Leave it to Beaver", "Bachelor Father", "Alfred Hitchcock Presents", "The Patty Duke Show", "Adventures of Rin Tin Tin", "Thriller", "Night Gallery", "Green Acres", "M*A*S*H","Naked City", "Route 66", "Peter Gunn", "Mr. Lucky", "The Donna Reed Show"."Dragnet", "Emergency", some of which are on MeTV and some on Antenna TV. I'll also occasionally watch the Movies channel which was my source for the "Mr. Moto" films.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

There is a wealth of old TV shows on sub-channels if you'd actually take the time to look at the TV guide. I was archiving all of the Three Stooges episodes and movies on a couple of the cable channels, but they didn't air all of the episodes. I found quite a few of the missing episodes being aired on local sub-channels that I've never seen broadcast on cable.

There are more than a few cable channels that show mostly the same kind of content. If you like old TV shows then local OTA sub-channels are a great place to find them. The NOAA weather channel is broadcast 24/7 on just about every PBS station's sub-channel. I've got some local channels with as many as six sub-channels. There are ten foreign language stations broadcast on one set of local sub-channels (channel 30.1 thru 30.10).


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> We're talking large groups of people not random joe schmoe. Obviously anyone can like anything.
> 
> But if you're pointing out how many channels OTA has in some areas and comparing that to cable or satellite then the next question is just what are those channels besides the big 4 or 5? Just what content are they carrying?


  What the heck are you talking about? I never made any such claim. I was simply countering the absurd claim that NO ONE cares about anything except the "big 4 or 5" in terms of local broadcast.



trip1eX said:


> And since no one can name those channels nor the content on them then you have to assume that the number of channels should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to this talk about OTA being anywhere near cable in terms of content.
> 
> Again we're talking large groups of people and the overall viewing habits that arise out of that. Obviously someone out there is going to like a tv channel where all they show is paint drying on walls. But trying to pass that off as another channel in addition to the big 4 tv networks is a ridiculous argument.


I named one channel a while ago - MeTV. Apparently you do selective reading and only see what you want to see. I just named 2 more in my previous post - Antenna TV and Movies.



trip1eX said:


> YOu're just another poster in a long line of them that can't name any of these other 50 or 60 OTA channels nor their great content. Yet wants to convince us that we shouldn't make any judgments about the desirability of those channels to the population at large.


What a bunch of crap. Yet another claim I never made. Just another in the long line of arrogant jerks who don't bother to do any research since they already know it all.

You also seemed to have missed the fact that I think that the product that is the subject of this thread does not have a sufficient market and will in fact fail.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Since losing OTA by going to a Roamio (My THD was OTA/Cable) the channel I've missed the most was Qubo. Some pretty good kid shows.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> What the heck are you talking about? I never made any such claim. I was simply countering the absurd claim that NO ONE cares about anything except the "big 4 or 5" in terms of local broadcast.
> 
> I named one channel a while ago - MeTV. Apparently you do selective reading and only see what you want to see. I just named 2 more in my previous post - Antenna TV and Movies.
> 
> ...


All you do is name call and accuse and parse words while entirely avoiding the point.

The point is we're talking about large numbers of people. No one is saying they speak for all. That's you saying that they do. No one is saying no one (not 1 person) likes anything other than the big 5. That's you saying that they said that.

That's you taking random words too literally and not looking for the overall point being made.

The big 5 are what people care about on OTA. The other stuff is no big loss. Yes for someone it would be I'm sure. But we're not talking about one specific person.


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## namwoljr (Aug 8, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> Mostly old TV shows and old movies. I have SP's for "Adam-12","The Man From U.N.C.L.E", and "The Adventures of Superman" on MeTV. I recently got all of the "Mr. Moto" films from a different channel. I will occasionally watch "Bonanza", "Daniel Boone", "The Rockford Files", "The Jack Benny Show", "The Burns and Allen Show", "Perry Mason", "The Twilight Zone", "Gunsmoke", "Make Room for Daddy", "Leave it to Beaver", "Bachelor Father", "Alfred Hitchcock Presents", "The Patty Duke Show", "Adventures of Rin Tin Tin", "Thriller", "Night Gallery", "Green Acres", "M*A*S*H","Naked City", "Route 66", "Peter Gunn", "Mr. Lucky", "The Donna Reed Show"."Dragnet", "Emergency", some of which are on MeTV and some on Antenna TV. I'll also occasionally watch the Movies channel which was my source for the "Mr. Moto" films.


That's what I thought. Reruns of old shows from the 50s to 70s. We get it that you enjoy watching this programming, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not putting a value judgement on it, I'm just saying you are in the minority, which was the original point. Playing devil's advocate won't change reality. The vast majority of people only watch prime time shows on the Big 4 and PBS. Don't believe me? Try and find reruns of "Bonanza" on the Nielson Ratings.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> All you do is name call and accuse and parse words while entirely avoiding the point.
> 
> The point is we're talking about large numbers of people. No one is saying they speak for all. That's you saying that they do. No one is saying no one (not 1 person) likes anything other than the big 5. That's you saying that they said that.
> 
> That's you taking random words too literally and not looking for the overall point being made.


Once again, you're misrepresenting what I have been saying.

Bigg's original claim was that there were only 5 or 6 channels local channels that ANYONE cared about, so your statement that "not 1 person" has done so is nonsense.

You also stated that


> no one can name those channels nor the content on them


. Another bit of nonsense.

If the requirement is going to be that "large numbers of people" support something before it can be considered legitimate, then TiVo might as well just close up shop.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

namwoljr said:


> That's what I thought. Reruns of old shows from the 50s to 70s. We get it that you enjoy watching this programming, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not putting a value judgement on it, I'm just saying you are in the minority, which was the original point. Playing devil's advocate won't change reality. The vast majority of people only watch prime time shows on the Big 4 and PBS. Don't believe me? Try and find reruns of "Bonanza" on the Nielson Ratings.


For what am I "playing devil's advocate"? Once again, I started out simply countering Bigg's ridiculous claim that there were only 5 or 6 local channels that ANYONE cared about.

Then there's this from your first post on the subject:



> I think it's just common sense that sub channels showing infomercials, C movies from the 70's, and Judge Judy reruns aren't getting anywhere near the same amount of eyeballs as the Big 4 and PBS. I think you'd be more hard pressed to support your argument with data.


Which doesn't exactly match reality, now does it?

The reality is that, in most places, there are more than 5 or 6 local channels that people watch. However, IMHO there simply are not sufficient numbers of people who will be willing to shell out $15/mo for an OTA only TiVo.


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## cannonz (Oct 23, 2011)

Very few people watch more than 5 or 6 (or less) of their cable channels.


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## namwoljr (Aug 8, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> For what am I "playing devil's advocate"? Once again, I started out simply countering Bigg's ridiculous claim that there were only 5 or 6 local channels that ANYONE cared about.
> 
> Then there's this from your first post on the subject:
> 
> ...


I think if we met up and talked this up in a bar over a few beers we'd agree on most points. I don't, however, understand what you are trying to prove in your last few posts. I know what are on those sub channels (despite your claim that I don't). Simply state your argument and how I (and others) differ from your assertion, and I'll continue the conversation.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

namwoljr said:


> I think if we met up and talked this up in a bar over a few beers we'd agree on most points. I don't, however, understand what you are trying to prove in your last few posts. I know what are on those sub channels (despite your claim that I don't). Simply state your argument and how I (and others) differ from your assertion, and I'll continue the conversation.


Make mine a cider or Redd's Apple Ale. I hate beer. 

I think my main point is that there was no need to counter TiVo's ridiculous claim of 100 local channels with the equally ridiculous claim of only 5 or 6 that ANYONE cares about.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> Once again, you're misrepresenting what I have been saying.
> 
> Bigg's original claim was that there were only 5 or 6 channels local channels that ANYONE cared about, so your statement that "not 1 person" has done so is nonsense.
> 
> ...


Bigg obviously wasn't saying that no one on earth can possibly care about any channel other than the big 5 or 6 channels.

And my observation on how no one likes to name or no one ever names any of these 50 or 60 OTA channels when talking about all the OTA channels out there isn't nonsense even if one person mentions 1 other OTA channel than the big 5.

No one said anything about something having to support large numbers of people to be legitimate. Only you said that. That's you reading that into posts. Some of us are just making observations about the market.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Yeah, MeTV is pretty incredible. It's light years superior to that cable channel TVLand.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I'm still wonder why people need to name channels? Do most people with DVRs actually look at the names of the channels? I know most of the people that I work work with have no clue what major broadcast network the shows they watch are on. Personally I usually know what I watch that is on the broadcast networks, but am unsure about some of the cable programs I watch.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> I'm still wonder why people need to name channels? Do most people with DVRs actually look at the names of the channels? I know most of the people that I work work with have no clue what major broadcast network the shows they watch are on. Personally I usually know what I watch that is on the broadcast networks, but am unsure about some of the cable programs I watch.


The point is just to tell us about all the great OTA content. Channel name is just one part of that. Show names are good. Descriptions help.

I would think anyone being questioned about all these 50-60 OTA channels would immediately just start naming off the content to stave off the naysayers if they had anything in their arsenal.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> The point is just to tell us about all the great OTA content. Channel name is just one part of that. Show names are good. Descriptions help.
> 
> I would think anyone being questioned about all these 50-60 OTA channels would immediately just start naming off the content to stave off the naysayers if they had anything in their arsenal.


My point was most people don't know what the channels are. I have around a dozen season passes from the sub-channels. Although I record most of them from FiOS instead of OTA. I have no clue what those sub-channels are called. Only that they are showing somes shows I like, so I record them. I don't care what network a show is on. Only that I can receive it and watch it. I would think most other people are the same way. And as I mentioned, most people I work with can't even name the shows they watch on the major Broadcast networks. Even though we talk about the shows during the week. They have no idea who broadcasts them.

Of course things were different when dumb VCRs were used. You had to know the time, the day, and the channel that something was on each week to record it. But with DVRs that is a thing of the past. You just have the DVR record a specific show each week. Without necessarily knowing what channel, the time it airs, or what network it is on.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> My point was most people don't know what the channels are. I have around a dozen season passes from the sub-channels. Although I record most of them from FiOS instead of OTA. I have no clue what those sub-channels are called. Only that they are showing somes shows I like, so I record them. I don't care what network a show is on. Only that I can receive it and watch it. I would think most other people are the same way. And as I mentioned, most people I work with can't even name the shows they watch on the major Broadcast networks. Even though we talk about the shows during the week. They have no idea who broadcasts them.


Yeah I heard ya the first time. IF you can't name channels then name shows even if you aren't sure it isn't on a broadcast network. It's not rocket science.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> My point was most people don't know what the channels are. I have around a dozen season passes from the sub-channels. Although I record most of them from FiOS instead of OTA. I have no clue what those sub-channels are called. Only that they are showing somes shows I like, so I record them. I don't care what network a show is on. Only that I can receive it and watch it. I would think most other people are the same way. And as I mentioned, most people I work with can't even name the shows they watch on the major Broadcast networks. Even though we talk about the shows during the week. They have no idea who broadcasts them.
> 
> Of course things were different when dumb VCRs were used. You had to know the time, the day, and the channel that something was on each week to record it. But with DVRs that is a thing of the past. You just have the DVR record a specific show each week. Without necessarily knowing what channel, the time it airs, or what network it is on.


As much as I hate comparisons involving TiVos and cell phones, what you describe is like how even my family doesn't know my phone numbers. They program them into their cell phones once, and never dial them again. I have phone numbers from 30 years ago I will never forget. I could even tell if I dialed wrong, by the tones of the numbers pressed. I knew what a redialed number should sound like. I'm still more of the type to just dial a number, and using re-dial is about as shortcut as I go. I hate not knowing anybody's number if I forget to take my cellphone with me.

A downside to this is when I don't put details into my cell phone, and my doctor's office requires the name and address of my pharmacy, or no prescriptions will be filled. I had to sit there and visualize myself dialing the pharmacy on my home line. I remembered it, called it, and got the address.

I found it disturbing that I was expected to cough up all the details about my pharmacy, or reschedule an appointment for refills on prescriptions it is dangerous to run out of (no, not the kind most are probably thinking). I have high blood pressure, tachycardia, and an irregular heartbeat. The rest is nobody's business.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

nooneuknow said:


> I found it disturbing that I was expected to cough up all the details about my pharmacy, or reschedule an appointment for refills on prescriptions it is dangerous to run out of (no, not the kind most are probably thinking). I have high blood pressure, tachycardia, and an irregular heartbeat. The rest is nobody's business.


Why would any Dr. care about the name of your pharmacy unless *you* required (for some odd reason) the Dr. to fax the scrip directly to a pharmacy, and one can't do that with any class 2 narcotics anyways, most people would get the written scrip, bring that scrip once to the pharmacy, and all refills can be done on the phone, if the scrip runs out the pharmacy will call the Doc. (class 2 narcotics is the exception). I am talking about things as they are in CT, other states may have different ways of doing things.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

lessd said:


> Why would any Dr. care about the name of your pharmacy unless *you* required (for some odd reason) the Dr. to fax the scrip directly to a pharmacy, and one can't do that with any class 2 narcotics anyways, most people would get the written scrip, bring that scrip once to the pharmacy, and all refills can be done on the phone, if the scrip runs out the pharmacy will call the Doc. (class 2 narcotics is the exception). I am talking about things as they are in CT, other states may have different ways of doing things.


Never mind. I'm not going to say any more on this. It was just an example scenario, for a comparison, and I'm not going to say more about it, in the direction and context you went with it.


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## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

nooneuknow said:


> Never mind. I'm not going to say any more on this. It was just an example scenario, for a comparison, and I'm not going to say more about it, in the direction and context you went with it.


Promise


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Wow, that was a funny interview with Tom Rogers. Trish's best line, "So you're saying we're like an antenna?". She really didn't have any idea whatsoever about what the story she was covering and there were a lot of funny statements and questions. The Onion reports aren't any funnier than that.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Aero 1 said:


> no, your statement is totally wrong. Fios is not ip, fios delivers QAM from SHE (super head end), to the regional VHO's then to the VSO (local video serving office) then to your home all through the fiber line. The only ip video delivery service is On demand content.


Yup. Series3Sub obviously has no clue how FIOS works.



trip1eX said:


> Bigg obviously wasn't saying that no one on earth can possibly care about any channel other than the big 5 or 6 channels.
> 
> And my observation on how no one likes to name or no one ever names any of these 50 or 60 OTA channels when talking about all the OTA channels out there isn't nonsense even if one person mentions 1 other OTA channel than the big 5.
> 
> No one said anything about something having to support large numbers of people to be legitimate. Only you said that. That's you reading that into posts. Some of us are just making observations about the market.


Yup, that's just it. The viewership on 5 or 6 channels is huge, and then it's tiny for the remaining sub-channels that few people even know exist.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

I have had both cable, dish, and OTA for the last couple of decades or more. On all three, most of my viewing has been the network local stations, for local and network news, sports, popular series, late night shows, documentaries etc. As far as the remaining, mostly useless channels as far as I am concerned, the only time I watch them at all is when I am channel surfing with my remote looking for something that is a bit more entertaining than watching paint dry, which for the most part is like finding the Holy Grail. At one point I subscribed to Showtime, Starz, HBO, and Cinemax, only to get tired of them rather quickly, discovering that there was maybe one or two shows that I watched at all, and non renewing or canceling the subscription. 

When I cut the cord two years ago, got an indoor HD antenna, and got a Roku and Netflix, I found that I watched more TV than I had before I cut the cord, because many times there was something fairly interesting to watch. I also started binge watching using Netflix, shows like Breaking Bad, Lilyhammer, Orange is the New Black, House of Cards, etc..... So I then came to the conclusion, that cable or dish now had zero worth to me, and I would never go back to it. I get all the local network channels, plus about 20 other smaller channels that have older movies, special programming etc. 

Now the one thing I did miss from Cable and Dish was the DVR which gave me a program guide to see what was on, and the ability to time shift programs. As a senior citizen, I can't stay up till 1:30 am to watch the Tonight show or Letterman, for instance. So I decided to try Hulu Plus for awhile. I could watch some shows, time shifted, but not all the major shows and networks are on Hulu Plus, and the shows that were available didn't have much interest for me so eventually I cancelled Hulu Plus and saved the $8 a month it was costing me. 

So adding the Tivo Roamio, at $15 a month and finally filled the gap that I had in my TV viewing. I have watched more TV in the week that I have had the Roamio than I have for a long time, and I am only watching what I am really interested in. Most of the shows I watch or major network shows that are on at hours when I am not home or asleep, or shows I might have missed knowing were on, because I had no guide to look at. This $15 a month, is probably the best $15 a month I have committed to in many years, when I factor in the entertainment that I can view per month, from my Tivo. 

The reason for me posting all this, is that since I started reading about Tivo, and the forum, I have seen so many posts stating that one needs to immediately buy the lifetime subscription, or Tivo isn't worth it. For the cost of a couple of fast food meals per month , I have a DVR that works perfectly, a TV Guide that is accurate, and easy to use, a video picture that is not compressed in any way, no monthly cable or Dish bill, Pandora, Netflix, YouTube, without having to get a Roku box etc... Am I concerned about having to pay $15 a month, in three years, for all these features to continue, not at all. I think that there will be many people that live in the suburbs, that can get decent OTA signals from either a good indoor antenna or even a smaller outdoor antenna, that want to cut the cord, and will look at the OTA Tivo and the $15 a month as a great idea. I also think that if they buy a $50 box and then are told that in order to really get a good deal, they need to really spend another $500 or 10 times the cost of the box, for a lifetime subscription, that will be the end of their interest in getting a Tivo. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> The reason for me posting all this, is that since I started reading about Tivo, and the forum, I have seen so many posts stating that one needs to immediately buy the lifetime subscription, or Tivo isn't worth it. For the cost of a couple of fast food meals per month , I have a DVR that works perfectly, a TV Guide that is accurate, and easy to use, a video picture that is not compressed in any way, no monthly cable or Dish bill, Pandora, Netflix, YouTube, without having to get a Roku box etc... Am I concerned about having to pay $15 a month, in three years, for all these features to continue, not at all. I think that there will be many people that live in the suburbs, that can get decent OTA signals from either a good indoor antenna or even a smaller outdoor antenna, that want to cut the cord, and will look at the OTA Tivo and the $15 a month as a great idea. I also think that if they buy a $50 box and then are told that in order to really get a good deal, they need to really spend another $500 or 10 times the cost of the box, for a lifetime subscription, that will be the end of their interest in getting a Tivo.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


Well most of America agrees with you and would rather make small monthly payments in perpetuity rather than pay alot up front and save in the long run.

But the math says that if you take 100 monthly subscribers and 100 lifetime owners you'll find that, in the long run, roughly 90-100% of lifetime owners paid less than the monthly subscribers. The math is even better for lifetime if you throw in a Tivo Mini into the mix on a second tv which would only be available if you got a Roamio Base model or older Premiere model.

Oh and it just occurred to me, and this is only a hunch, but maybe Tivo didn't offer lifetime on the OTA Roamio because it is going to be a long time before OTA tech changes or the needs of the OTA market change. And thus a long time before anyone would need another OTA dvr.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Captainbob said:


> The reason for me posting all this, is that since I started reading about Tivo, and the forum, I have seen so many posts stating that one needs to immediately buy the lifetime subscription, or Tivo isn't worth it. For the cost of a couple of fast food meals per month , I have a DVR that works perfectly, a TV Guide that is accurate, and easy to use, a video picture that is not compressed in any way, no monthly cable or Dish bill, Pandora, Netflix, YouTube, without having to get a Roku box etc... Am I concerned about having to pay $15 a month, in three years, for all these features to continue, not at all. I think that there will be many people that live in the suburbs, that can get decent OTA signals from either a good indoor antenna or even a smaller outdoor antenna, that want to cut the cord, and will look at the OTA Tivo and the $15 a month as a great idea. I also think that if they buy a $50 box and then are told that in order to really get a good deal, they need to really spend another $500 or 10 times the cost of the box, for a lifetime subscription, that will be the end of their interest in getting a Tivo.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


Yeah, I can definitely see people looking at the Roamio OTA this way. The deal killer for me is the lack of mini support. Otherwise it might be something to consider.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere. Do we know if the OTA will do MRV with other capable Tivos?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I think if you're someone who watches mostly network programming, then you might look at the $15/month service fee a lower fee than what you pay the cable company and it includes the DVR all on one bill.

The wild card is your OTA reception. I can see a higher return percentage because of OTA reception issues. Maybe Tivo should bundle this with an antenna and even offer a different type of antenna based on the customer's zip code.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I think that's part of the point of the limited BB release. They seem to be geo-targetting. My BB is a Magnolia but isn't on the availability list. It shouldn't be, since we only get about 3 channels.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

shwru980r said:


> I think if you're someone who watches mostly network programming, then you might look at the $15/month service fee a lower fee than what you pay the cable company and it includes the DVR all on one bill. The wild card is your OTA reception. I can see a higher return percentage because of OTA reception issues. Maybe Tivo should bundle this with an antenna and even offer a different type of antenna based on the customer's zip code.


I'm pretty sure I remember in the recent interview about the OTA by Tom Rodgers that he mentioned it being bundled with an antenna. Maybe that's going to be an option provided by BB for those that don't have one yet?


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> Well most of America agrees with you and would rather make small monthly payments in perpetuity rather than pay alot up front and save in the long run.
> 
> But the math says that if you take 100 monthly subscribers and 100 lifetime owners you'll find that, in the long run, roughly 90-100% of lifetime owners paid less than the monthly subscribers. The math is even better for lifetime if you throw in a Tivo Mini into the mix on a second tv which would only be available if you got a Roamio Base model or older Premiere model.
> 
> Oh and it just occurred to me, and this is only a hunch, but maybe Tivo didn't offer lifetime on the OTA Roamio because it is going to be a long time before OTA tech changes or the needs of the OTA market change. And thus a long time before anyone would need another OTA dvr.


I wish if you were going to discuss what I posted, that you would have quoted the entire post I made, which was part and parcel of what I was trying to convey. Oh well....


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

What you've conveyed, repeatedly, is that you're willing to waste your money on monthly service if you keep the box more than a couple of years. 

We get that, lots of others here do that too.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't know how Tivo's current price structuring works, but back when I bought my first S3 I could lock in a discounted rate by paying for three years' service up front. When that period expired I was offered lifetime for $99 so I jumped on it. I don't know if Tivo still offers 1, 2, or 3-year prepaid plans or if you're limited strictly to either monthly or lifetime plans. 

If you're unsure if you want to keep the Tivo for more than a year, getting the monthly plan makes sense if you want to try it before you commit to the long term. Tivo's lifetime plans have gotten so outrageously expensive that it's easy to see why so many people would balk at spending that much for the service after paying for the hardware.

On another note, the way Tivo has been churning out new models over the past 5 or 6 years, going monthly vs. lifetime makes a lot of sense. Why buy lifetime on a unit that will possibly be replaced with something better a couple of years later?

Tivo would rather sell you a recurring monthly service rather than a lifetime deal, which is probably one of the reasons they jacked up the lifetime cost so high. They'll get more money from you in the long run and maintain a steady source of revenue. Lifetime is a one shot deal and Tivo still has to provide the service long after the break even point has been reached, assuming the DVR lasts beyond that point.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't know how Tivo's current price structuring works, but back when I bought my first S3 I could lock in a discounted rate by paying for three years' service up front. When that period expired I was offered lifetime for $99 so I jumped on it. I don't know if Tivo still offers 1, 2, or 3-year prepaid plans or if you're limited strictly to either monthly or lifetime plans.
> 
> If you're unsure if you want to keep the Tivo for more than a year, getting the monthly plan makes sense if you want to try it before you commit to the long term. Tivo's lifetime plans have gotten so outrageously expensive that it's easy to see why so many people would balk at spending that much for the service after paying for the hardware.
> 
> ...


Technology has and is changing so rapidly in the last few years, that investing in something that you must keep at least 4 or 5 years to recover the lifetime cost, just doesn't make sense to me. Now that other companies like Channel Master, and Simple TV, and others have DVRs, a company like Tivo can't afford to sit on their developement and keep making the same product with the same capabilities, year after year. I read an article sometime back about Tivo even laying off most of their hardware engineers. I think in the next few years there will most likely be significant changes in streaming, cable and dish operation. TV capabilities, cloud storage and access, etc. Locking oneself into one product for 5+ years, doesn't seem to be a good choice. Some of the cable DVRs that are out now, can actually do more than many of the Tivo units at a fraction of the cost. Imagine what it will be like in 4 or 5 more years.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> Technology has and is changing so rapidly in the last few years, that investing in something that you must keep at least 4 or 5 years to recover the lifetime cost, just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> Now that other companies like Channel Master, and Simple TV, and others have DVRs, a company like Tivo can't afford to sit on their developement and keep making the same product with the same capabilities, year after year. I read an article sometime back about Tivo even laying off most of their hardware engineers. I think in the next few years there will most likely be significant changes in streaming, cable and dish operation. TV capabilities, cloud storage and access, etc. Locking oneself into one product for 5+ years, doesn't seem to be a good choice. Some of the cable DVRs that are out now, can actually do more than many of the Tivo units at a fraction of the cost. Imagine what it will be like in 4 or 5 more years.


The cable market moves slower than the tech market. Cable companies have to change every set top box in every home and tons of equipment in every headend and hub in order to entirely switch over to a new technology. That doesn't happen overnight. Today's dvr is going to be support for many years.

OTA signals are going to change even more slowly.

Plus if you bought a base Roamio with lifetime for OTA use then it would only take at most 3 years to break even compared to paying $50 up front and $15/month. Less if you get it on sale.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> I wish if you were going to discuss what I posted, that you would have quoted the entire post I made, which was part and parcel of what I was trying to convey. Oh well....


The math of lifetime vs monthly payments has nothing to do with why you said you cut the cord. It's just pure math.

You can rationalize it however you want but it doesn't change the numbers.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> YOU didn't, but tons of other people have. I've been with Comcast for years and with multiple Tivos and the SD Prime WMC tuner, and my success rate for easy card installs is roughly 75%. Comcast, just like every other cableCo (with possible exception of FIOS), has had major issues at various times with card activations.
> 
> So if you left Tivo, why are you posting here??


I'm here discussing my observations, experiences and opinions of TiVo. Why do you ask?


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> You are completely, utterly full of it WRT cards. Tivo pricing is a whole different matter.
> 
> You've adopted the Bigg method of posting here - I didn't have any problems with cards so therefore cards are not a problem for everyone, and it's all Tivo's fault.


So it was the Cable Cards fault TIVO went with an OS (Adobe Air) that couldn't run reliably on the hardware TIVO picked to run it, causing it to lock up, crash, reboot, fail to record, have half finished menus, network problems, etc? 

You must work for TiVo's technical support, since they SWORE I was the only one with those issues!


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

We were talking about cards and the 90%+ issue with them being the cableCo's fault, not Tivo's other software issues. Your assertion that cards were all Tivo's problem is flat-out wrong, has nothing to do with their poor choice of platform for the HDUI.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Banker257 said:


> I'm here discussing my observations, experiences and opinions of TiVo. Why do you ask?


Because no one's going to care if you don't own one and just want to come here to bash Tivo because of your experience? Feel free to post away if that's how you get your jollies, you're not the only one doing that here...


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Captainbob said:


> Technology has and is changing so rapidly in the last few years, that investing in something that you must keep at least 4 or 5 years to recover the lifetime cost, just doesn't make sense to me.


As tripleX said, you're failing at basic math. The recovery period for lifetime vs. monthly is a little over 2 years, and way less than that factoring in resale value. You just choose to ignore the facts.


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

lessd said:


> Why would any Dr. care about the name of your pharmacy unless *you* required (for some odd reason) the Dr. to fax the scrip directly to a pharmacy, and one can't do that with any class 2 narcotics anyways, most people would get the written scrip, bring that scrip once to the pharmacy, and all refills can be done on the phone, if the scrip runs out the pharmacy will call the Doc. (class 2 narcotics is the exception). I am talking about things as they are in CT, other states may have different ways of doing things.


If the clinic is using an electronic medical records system like Epic (as many clinics and hospitals are making the conversion to here in the Seattle area) then they need to confirm the Pharmacy name and location, then prescriptions are sent via efax through the records system. No paper needed (although the option to print a paper scrip is available). Once the pharmacy is entered in the person's chart, the information shouldn't be needed again, unless the patient wants to change pharmacies or add an alternate.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> Because no one's going to care if you don't own one and just want to come here to bash Tivo because of your experience? Feel free to post away if that's how you get your jollies, you're not the only one doing that here...


Bash Tivo? Where, when?


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> We were talking about cards and the 90%+ issue with them being the cableCo's fault, not Tivo's other software issues. Your assertion that cards were all Tivo's problem is flat-out wrong, has nothing to do with their poor choice of platform for the HDUI.


No, "WE" weren't. All I stated was that "I" never had a problem with a Cable Card install and the reason my Premiere didn't work the way it should have (IMO) had NOTHING to do with a Cable Card install.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> As tripleX said, you're failing at basic math. The recovery period for lifetime vs. monthly is a little over 2 years, and way less than that factoring in resale value. You just choose to ignore the facts.


Why did you ignore the rest of the post? He explains his basic math.

It's YOU who seem to have a habit of making "straw man" arguments and ignoring the facts as presented.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Everyone is saying his math is wrong for the recovery of the lifetime cost, and it is. Anyone who has dealt with project accounting would note that failing to account for the residual cost gives an incorrect assessment.

That does not discount his opinions, he is welcome to them. If the poster prefers to pay a little more, they are free to. They can also go ahead and buy a separate insurance policy on the box too.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

jrtroo said:


> Everyone is saying his math is wrong for the recovery of the lifetime cost, and it is. Anyone who has dealt with project accounting would note that failing to account for the residual cost gives an incorrect assessment.
> 
> That does not discount his opinions, he is welcome to them. If the poster prefers to pay a little more, they are free to. They can also go ahead and buy a separate insurance policy on the box too.


There is no guarantee of a the value of a Tivo with lifetime once the unit breaks. Let's say I bought a $200 Roamio ( which I did ) and I drank the lifetime Koolaid and dropped another $500 on it to get Lifetime ( lifetime of the product) subscription on it. Now I have to gamble on two things happening, the first being that the unit doesn't break within say 4 years. If it does break in the 3rd year, Tivo won't fix it but will sell me a replacement for $150, plus charge me some fee to transfer my "lifetime" subscription, to the new unit. So now I am up to almost $900, and this is assuming that Tivo is still in business and they are still supporting the "lifetime" subscription, and that they will still sell me a replacement unit for $150 and will still transfer the lifetime to the unit for a "reasonable fee". That is the math that I do, and to me it is like playing a slot machine in Vegas, and expecting the house to lose.

This doesn't even factor in how much technology will change in the next four years. People are already talking about 4K, TV's with built in DVRs, 8K, everything moving to streaming from the cloud, cable and dish companies coming out with better and better DVRs, etc. MY daughter had a Tivo for years, and just recently switched to AT and T and is using their DVR. I was telling her about my new Roamio, and she was saying that her new DVR does everything my Roamio does, and it cost her nothing, as part of her package. If the majority of the Tivo customers balk at the $15 a month fee, and either don't buy a Tivo, or sign up for the lifetime, in a few years, Tivo will run out of income, especially factoring in the people that seem to be leaving Tivo every year. How long is a company going to be able to maintain "lifetime" subscriptions, when their base of monthly paying users keeps shrinking? If I am going to make an investment in a product, that might run up to $900, It has to have a good business model that makes sense, or I am just going to pay the $15 a month, and see what happens. That amount of monthly fee, is not going to send my budget into a tailspin.

Now I put on my technical hat, having been in the electronic servicing business my entire life ( and still serve as a part time consultant in that field), and I read posts where people are trying to fix broken Tivos, because their unit has failed, and they have to get it fixed because of the lifetime subscription applies to that particular unit. Turns out, that if they send the unit in for repair, it more than likely gets replaced, with a "rebuilt" unit. So now I have to rely on a unit that was repaired, by an service company that is contracted to do these repairs, and there is a good possibility that this replacement unit will still have issues, because these repair companies have to fix a certain number of units per day to make it profitable. You work as a tech for that company, and you are not going to troubleshoot some intermittent problem for 2 days, to make 100% sure you fixed it. You get output, and it doesn't start smoking, it gets boxed, marked as repaired and shipped out. Now this isn't a big deal, if you are just paying the $15 a month, because if this gets to be a hassle, you can put the DVR in the dumpster, and go get something else. But if you have $700 or more invested in this product, now it becomes a much more serious issue.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I think where Capt Bob is really off is trying to convince many long time Tivo users that lifetime isn't a good deal when most of us have experienced the opposite.

And then trying to convince us that tech changes so rapidly even though the TivoHD that was released 7 years ago actually still works with cable systems and OTA.

Or maybe he's off because he doesn't seem to know lifetime is easy to get for $400 with the PLSR code that has been around for ...10 years?

Or he doesn't know that Tivo has in the past given further discounts on lifetime service on a new Tivo if you had lifetime service on an old Tivo.

Or that many us resell old lifetime Tivos to recoup half the cost of the new lifetime Tivo.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Why would anyone buy a tv with a built in DVR? That just sounds crazy.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

A Tivo can last as long as you deem to keep it alive. The vast majority of Tivo problems are related to failed hard drives, which are relatively simple to replace on older models and ridiculously simple on current ones. The other main issue is a failed power supply due to defective capacitors, which is generally more common on S3 and older models. Calculating the value of a lifetime subscription vs. the actual lifespan of the Tivo is generally irrelevant. Worst case scenario is if you're too inept or physically unable to hold a screwdriver and install a replacement drive.

FWIW, lifetime Tivos tend to sell for about $300, give or take, depending on the model. It's also pretty clear that CaptainBob hasn't been around these forums long enough to understand that a large number of members go the DIY route with respect to fixing their own Tivos. There are software tools for restoring an image to a blank drive as well as services that sell pre-configured plug-and-play replacement drives for any model for those that don't feel confident in their PC skills to perform a backup and restore.



aaronwt said:


> Why would anyone buy a tv with a built in DVR? That just sounds crazy.


IIRC, some TV manufacturers actually sold TVs with integrated DVRs (I believe Mitsubishi was one of them).


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I know some have been made in the past. But having a DVR integrated into the Tv becomes a pain if there is an issue. Anytime you integrate devices into the Tv, if something breaks it becomes mor eof a hassle to get fixed because it is built into the TV. That's why separate components, especially for more expensive items, is the best option.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> I think where Capt Bob is really off is trying to convince many long time Tivo users that lifetime isn't a good deal when most of us have experienced the opposite.
> 
> And then trying to convince us that tech changes so rapidly even though the TivoHD that was released 7 years ago actually still works with cable systems and OTA.
> 
> ...


How many of the 99% of people that are happy with a free DVR supplied by an MSO are going to know, or care about those things?

I'm not interested in buying a DVR I can "fix" it or "sell" it later.

I'm not interested in buying a DVR at all


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Banker257 said:


> How many of the 99% of people that are happy with a free DVR supplied by an MSO are going to know, or care about those things?
> 
> I'm not interested in buying a DVR I can "fix" it or "sell" it later.
> 
> I'm not interested in buying a DVR at all


Hey read my post again. I'm not selling America on a Tivo. And read my post a few posts above where I said most of America would rather make small monthly payments.

I'm just pointing out that he seems like he doesn't know as much about the Tivo game as many of the long time experienced users here and yet wants to tell them (or rationalize) that monthly is the way to go compared to lifetime.

It comes across as a bit naive or overconfident. And I mentioned a few reasons why it seems that way.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> Hey read my post again. I'm not selling America on a Tivo. And read my post a few posts above where I said most of America would rather make small monthly payments.
> 
> I'm just pointing out that he seems like he doesn't know as much about the Tivo game as many of the long time experienced users here and yet wants to tell them (or rationalize) that monthly is the way to go compared to lifetime.
> 
> It comes across as a bit naive or overconfident. And I mentioned a few reasons why it seems that way.


First of all, I am not an expert in the "Tivo Game", as you pointed out. I am also not a Tivo Fan Boy or a Fan Boy of any electronics company. I am also not trying to convince people to give up their lifetime subscriptions to Tivo, in fact, I don't give a darn about what other Tivo owners do. What I am spelling out is why* I *decided not to invest well over $700 in something that* might not* be worth more than a mouse fart in four or five years. You can agree with me or disagree with me, and frankly, I couldn't care less which way you go. I am just pointing out why I did what I did.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> First of all, I am not an expert in the "Tivo Game", as you pointed out. I am also not a Tivo Fan Boy or a Fan Boy of any electronics company. I am also not trying to convince people to give up their lifetime subscriptions to Tivo, in fact, I don't give a darn about what other Tivo owners do. What I am spelling out is why* I *decided not to invest well over $700 in something that* might not* be worth more than a mouse fart in four or five years. You can agree with me or disagree with me, and frankly, I couldn't care less which way you go. I am just pointing out why I did what I did.


Nothing wrong with going monthly. I'm just pointing out that the figures you use to tell us why you did what you did are a bit "erroneous" to this crowd.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> I know some have been made in the past. But having a DVR integrated into the Tv becomes a pain if there is an issue. Anytime you integrate devices into the Tv, if something breaks it becomes mor eof a hassle to get fixed because it is built into the TV. That's why separate components, especially for more expensive items, is the best option.


Agreed. Heck, I wish the larger TVs would come without a tuner or speakers as well. Also things that TVs do really poorly. The only thing I want my "TV" to do is be a dumb monitor. Or free Netflix, since my ex-roommate put her Netflix account in my smart TV instead of in my Roku for some inexplicable reason.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Banker257 said:


> I'm not interested in buying a DVR at all


So, again, why are you still posting here?


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## kettledrum (Nov 17, 2003)

bradleys said:


> @BriHiFi - I would recommend the same thing to you as I would to anyone else interested in a premium OTA DVR. Purchase the Roamio Basic with liftetime service - you should be able to get in at about $500 and you will have no future fees.


Okay, I'm VERY late to this thread. Didn't even know about the new TiVo OTA until today.

Seems like a horrible deal with no lifetime and no mini support.

But help me out here.....how can I get a Roamio Basic w/lifetime for $500?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

kettledrum said:


> Okay, I'm VERY late to this thread. Didn't even know about the new TiVo OTA until today. Seems like a horrible deal with no lifetime and no mini support. But help me out here.....how can I get a Roamio Basic w/lifetime for $500?


Right here: http://www.sellmoretivo.com

But you have to purchase the discount code on eBay first, usually in the $30-50 range. PM member spherular here, he sells them.


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## Davisadm (Jan 19, 2008)

Confirmed by TiVoMargret - 
Roamio OTA is compatible with the Mini!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/512001033057210370


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

LOL, someone got the message that at $15 a month there was no excuse for intentionally crippling Mini support.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Davisadm said:


> Confirmed by TiVoMargret -
> Roamio OTA is compatible with the Mini!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/512001033057210370


Tech support on Chat his morning 9-17-14 at 7:30 AM PST said the following when asked if the OTA would work with the mini and I quote " At this time there is no definitive answer on that, unfortunately. * We are even getting conflicting answers from our engineers.*


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL, someone got the message that at $15 a month there was no excuse for intentionally crippling Mini support.


Regardless of the cost there was no reason. Adding minis get's TiVo a bit more money, improves the experience for users, and gives them an edge up on the competition. There was no reason to limit it other then a misguided attempt to make the Roamio Basic more appealing.

Now all they need to do is get rid of the BestBuy exclusive and allow lifetime and I bet they'll get a decent number of takers.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Regardless of the cost there was no reason. Adding minis get's TiVo a bit more money, improves the experience for users, and gives them an edge up on the competition. There was no reason to limit it other then a misguided attempt to make the Roamio Basic more appealing.
> 
> Now all they need to do is get rid of the BestBuy exclusive and allow lifetime and I bet they'll get a decent number of takers.


What they would probably do is after the one year commitment they would allow a lifetime subscription. That would be my guess anyway if they did offer a lifetime option..


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Regardless of the cost there was no reason. Adding minis get's TiVo a bit more money, improves the experience for users, and gives them an edge up on the competition. There was no reason to limit it other then a misguided attempt to make the Roamio Basic more appealing.
> 
> Now all they need to do is get rid of the BestBuy exclusive and allow lifetime and I bet they'll get a decent number of takers.


Yeah, that would make it pretty awesome, although it's still sort of pointless, since the Roamio Basic does all that and it can work with CableCard...


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Bigg said:


> Yeah, that would make it pretty awesome, although it's still sort of pointless, since the Roamio Basic does all that and it can work with CableCard...


Still $50 worth of spare parts for a base-Roamio owner, especially if you want to help insure a lifetime service base model lives on. Even if TiVo required buying a service commitment at point of sale, there's still that 30-day window you can cancel, for any reason. It's not like they could force you to return the box, right?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> Yeah, that would make it pretty awesome, although it's still sort of pointless, since the Roamio Basic does all that and it can work with CableCard...


Yeah but it's cheaper. Even if they have to bump the price to $100 to allow lifetime I bet there would be takers.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Banker257 said:


> How many of the 99% of people that are happy with a free DVR supplied by an MSO are going to know, or care about those things?
> 
> I'm not interested in buying a DVR I can "fix" it or "sell" it later.
> 
> I'm not interested in buying a DVR at all





slowbiscuit said:


> So, again, why are you still posting here?


+1, and again why are you (Banker257) still claiming that equipment furnished by a MSO is "free"? Obviously you're paying for it as part of your subscription commitment. If you can walk into the MSO's office and they give you that DVR to keep forever with no subscription or service contract required, then it is free.

I will say that I've had the feeling my TWC charges me the same for a plan without a DVR or STB as others pay for the same channels with a DVR. Of course it's impossible to document this because of the obscure pricing of their bundles and promotions. I guess you could interpret that situation as providing the DVR effectively free to the consumer -- but really it's just overcharging Tivo users. I am shocked that they would do that!


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah but it's cheaper. Even if they have to bump the price to $100 to allow lifetime I bet there would be takers.


I've seen the base Roamio for sale on amazon for $150 before, and you can get it w/lifetime with an ebay coupon for $499.99 total. A $100 Roamio OTA w/lifetime option is hardly a good deal.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> A Tivo can last as long as you deem to keep it alive. The vast majority of Tivo problems are related to failed hard drives, which are relatively simple to replace on older models and ridiculously simple on current ones. The other main issue is a failed power supply due to defective capacitors, which is generally more common on S3 and older models. Calculating the value of a lifetime subscription vs. the actual lifespan of the Tivo is generally irrelevant. Worst case scenario is if you're too inept or physically unable to hold a screwdriver and install a replacement drive.
> 
> FWIW, lifetime Tivos tend to sell for about $300, give or take, depending on the model.


For that matter it's not impossible to unload a broken HiDef TiVo with lifetime for $100-150 to someone willing to gamble that they can repair it and get it back in service. (Just browsed recent ebay completed listings to double-check that price).

So even if you can't or won't repair it it still has a non-zero residual value because of the lifetime service.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Jonathan_S said:


> For that matter it's not impossible to unload a broken HiDef TiVo with lifetime for $100-150 to someone willing to gamble that they can repair it and get it back in service. (Just browsed recent ebay completed listings to double-check that price).
> 
> So even if you can't or won't repair it it still has a non-zero residual value because of the lifetime service.


That's providing that you are into buying and selling used electronic gear on Ebay, which is just about the last thing that I would want to get involved in.

I am at work today, so just for the heck of it, I just asked 2 of my co-workers what they thought of the lifetime versus monthly idea. Now these other two workers, have basically the same work experience and background as I do, they have been engineers for the largest electronic firms in the world for decades, experienced in designing as well as trouble shooting all kinds of consumer as well as commercial display equipment, and they have all spent time in training component level technicians for other companies. When presented with the arguments for lifetime, versus monthly, for say a $200 Roamio Basic, all three said they would take the monthly rather than the lifetime option, without hesitation. Their number one reason, was the rapid change in technology in today's world. By the standards today, something that is 3 years old is almost ancient. Who know what will be popular 3-4 years from now. The second reason was the lifetime being tied to the unit, rather than the customer. The third reason they all gave, was the idea of buying and selling used electronic gear on Ebay was not something they wanted to get involved with.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Not wanting to "get involved" with selling use electronics on ebay is a poor excuse at best. I've bought and sold used electronics on ebay for over 15 years and never had any issues that couldn't be resolved. It's like selling any other used item. The main issue with selling any used electronics is how well they're packed for shipping and what shipper you use. Lots of bubble wrap and/or packing peanuts is a must. Double boxing is best, but not a dealbreaker. Never in a million years would I ship electronics through the USPS and I tell any seller that shipping through them will result in a returned item. UPS and FedEx are the only way to go, IMHO.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

So use Craigslist. I personally don't like to use Craiglist because of the face to face sale. But some people like it. But my first choice is to sell a piece of electronics on one of the forums. Which is how I sold my last few TiVos. And then I will use Ebay if the item doesn't sell on the forums.

I have sold many devices over the years on ebay, including many of hard drives and over two dozen TiVos. I've not had any big issues. I even sold six of the first HD TiVos on Ebay in 2004. The HR10-250 DirecTv models. They sold for an average of well over $1400 each(more than $400 over retail). The profit covered the cost of my two HR10-250 units and most of the cost of the upgrade to two 250GB drives. But ebay/paypal does take bigger cut than in the old days. Which is part of the reason I prefer to go through the forums first, before using eBay.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> Not wanting to "get involved" with selling use electronics on ebay is a poor excuse at best. I've bought and sold used electronics on ebay for over 15 years and never had any issues that couldn't be resolved. It's like selling any other used item. The main issue with selling any used electronics is how well they're packed for shipping and what shipper you use. Lots of bubble wrap and/or packing peanuts is a must. Double boxing is best, but not a dealbreaker. Never in a million years would I ship electronics through the USPS and I tell any seller that shipping through them will result in a returned item. UPS and FedEx are the only way to go, IMHO.


I am very familiar with packing delicate electronic equipment for shipping. This has nothing to do with my problem with selling used electronics online.

For example, let's say you sell a piece of equipment, and 7 days later you get a communication from the customer that the device that you shipped him, worked one day and failed. Now the options are:

1. Tell the customer to return it for a refund, but you know it was working perfectly when you shipped it to the customer, so you wonder what the buyer did to it, because maybe he just decided he didn't like the way it worked.

2. Tell the customer that it was sold as-is and the warranty is " If it blows up after you get it, you get to keep all the pieces you can find "

This is the kind of issue that can occur, especially if the seller sold it because it had an intermittent problem that he couldn't resolve and he just wanted to get rid of it.

For saving only $15 a month, on something I used 24/7 for over three years, this type of potential hassle is the last thing I want to get involved with.


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

kettledrum said:


> Okay, I'm VERY late to this thread. Didn't even know about the new TiVo OTA until today.
> 
> Seems like a horrible deal with no lifetime and no mini support.


I haven't read the whole thread or all of the pricing debate, but here is how I see it:

The Roamio OTA is only $15 per month for the first year. By comparison, our premiere was $20 per month for the first year. At the end of that year we had the option of staying month-to-month at $20 or committing to another year to lower the price to $15 per month. Now we're at the 3 year mark, and I'm hoping we can convert to lifetime for $99.

I'm guessing at some point there will be a lifetime conversion option for the Roamio OTA too. $15 per month for 3 years is only $540, so with $50 equipment cost and $99 lifetime service conversion, the 3 year cost totals $689. A Roamio basic with lifetime service costs $700, and it all must be paid up front.

Even if somewhere a basic with lifetime were available for $500, I don't have that amount to spare in my budget right now. But I do have $65 for an OTA and the first month's service, and can afford to continue paying $15 per month as I am now.

The analysis is completely different if you have unlimited funds for discretionary spending, but I don't have that luxury.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

So say you keep your Roamio for 2 years because as you say (and I agree with actually) that it is outdated technology. Over those 2 years you've spent at minimum $360 on monthly fees (24 x $15). You can get lifetime with the PLSR code for $399. If you put that on a credit card and pay monthly it's not that much more/month. At the end of your ~2 years you've spent about the same and can then sell the TiVo for $200+ to recoup some cash or put towards a new TiVo or whatever the best one happens to be at that point.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Captainbob said:


> I am very familiar with packing delicate electronic equipment for shipping. This has nothing to do with my problem with selling used electronics online.
> 
> For example, let's say you sell a piece of equipment, and 7 days later you get a communication from the customer that the device that you shipped him, worked one day and failed.


Unlikely if you're selling one that's already broken 

But I completely understand not wanting to bother and preferring to probably pay out extra over time to avoid potentially getting 'locked-in' to obsolete electronics. (Or prematurely failing electronics). Paying for lack of hassle and flexibility can be a perfectly reasonable decision.

_Personally_ I made the other decision for my TiVos* and that's worked out pretty well for me so far (I've gone past break-even on all of them).

---
* Except for the original standard-def DirecTV TiVos. Though those eventually went down to $5/month for the whole house. But even then I _still_ held them long enough I would have paid less had I gone with the (then cheaper) lifetime service.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Monthly service is for suckers. Lifetime is just so much better. Even if you don't want to sell it, you could give it away, you could use it as a secondary box, whatever. What's the worst thing that happens? You end up losing a bit on Lifetime, but that's controlled. But you could gain bigtime, and save more every month the thing is going.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

nooneuknow said:


> Still $50 worth of spare parts for a base-Roamio owner, especially if you want to help insure a lifetime service base model lives on. Even if TiVo required buying a service commitment at point of sale, there's still that 30-day window you can cancel, for any reason. It's not like they could force you to return the box, right?


There could be a penalty if you don't return. It's also silly to buy an entire Roamio for what amounts to a power supply. The hard drive you can get off of Newegg, and I'm sure someone sell a standalone PSU...



Dan203 said:


> Yeah but it's cheaper. Even if they have to bump the price to $100 to allow lifetime I bet there would be takers.


But still, having the real deal with CableCard support is a better deal, as it allows more options down the road, as well as better resale value.

If someone really wants an OTA-only TiVo, I think they'd be better off getting an S3 or two with Lifetime off of Ebay. Sure, they will use a bit more power, but they're going to be a lot cheaper in the first place...


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Jonathan_S said:


> Unlikely if you're selling one that's already broken
> 
> But I completely understand not wanting to bother and preferring to probably pay out extra over time to avoid potentially getting 'locked-in' to obsolete electronics. (Or prematurely failing electronics). Paying for lack of hassle and flexibility can be a perfectly reasonable decision.
> 
> ...


That's my exact point, the minimal monthly investment to keep the monthly going, for me, is no big deal, and I am far from rich. When I factor in the hours and hours a month that I will be using this product, it is not worth the angst I might have worrying about if it will break down and end my lifetime, is it fixable, or it is an smd that failed that I can't buy, or when should I sell it to try and recoup some money, or should I sell it and buy a new model with more capabilities, etc..etc... . For a 50 cents a day, I don't have to worry about any of this.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> That's my exact point, the minimal monthly investment to keep the monthly going, for me, is no big deal, and I am far from rich. When I factor in the hours and hours a month that I will be using this product, it is not worth the angst I might have worrying about if it will break down and end my lifetime, is it fixable, or it is an smd that failed that I can't buy, or when should I sell it to try and recoup some money, or should I sell it and buy a new model with more capabilities, etc..etc... . For a 50 cents a day, I don't have to worry about any of this.


Buy a 3 yr warranty for $40 if you have that much anxiety.

YOu can reduce the payments from per month to per day to even per minute if you want to. It doesn't make your total cost any cheaper.

Nothing wrong with choosing to do the monthly payment plan. But let's not pretend it makes great financial sense.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

dcline414 said:


> I haven't read the whole thread or all of the pricing debate, but here is how I see it:
> 
> The Roamio OTA is only $15 per month for the first year. By comparison, our premiere was $20 per month for the first year. At the end of that year we had the option of staying month-to-month at $20 or committing to another year to lower the price to $15 per month. Now we're at the 3 year mark, and I'm hoping we can convert to lifetime for $99.
> 
> ...


Essentially what you're saying is, hey for those that can't afford something there is an option that lets us buy in for less up front, but pay more in the long run.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Bigg said:


> There could be a penalty if you don't return. It's also silly to buy an entire Roamio for what amounts to a power supply. The hard drive you can get off of Newegg, and I'm sure someone sell a standalone PSU...
> 
> But still, having the real deal with CableCard support is a better deal, as it allows more options down the road, as well as better resale value.
> 
> If someone really wants an OTA-only TiVo, I think they'd be better off getting an S3 or two with Lifetime off of Ebay. Sure, they will use a bit more power, but they're going to be a lot cheaper in the first place...


I'll file your thoughts on buying a Roamio OTA for parts, under "unproven speculation". My own thoughts belong there, as well.

I can't find anything saying anybody that bought one, was forced to buy a service contract at point of sale (Best Buy), nor can I find any language in the TiVo legalese that invalidates the standard no reason required, 30-day, penalty-free, full refund on TiVo service plans.

For those whining about the hassle of selling on ebay, and how anything and everything can and will go wrong: I sold two TiVo HDs, and four original Premieres, all with lifetime, and 2TB drives, quite easily, right here on TCF. I just had to knock the prices down to less than the lower end of what ebay units of equal parameters were selling for.

After factoring in how much I had went beyond the balance between monthly and lifetime "break-even" point, the $100 discounted base Roamios, and the lower cost associated with going from six TiVos to three, it was like getting my Roamios w/lifetime for free. The lower cost of the cable bill, due to halving my cablecard rental fees, and lowered associated billing items, played a big part in this. Factor in the lower power bills, and other little things, that all add-up over time, and I profited. I even sold two power supplies, out of two TiVo HDs with no service, on here, along with a surplus of hard drives. Somebody even made a feedback thread, where people have posted their "good buying experience with nooneuknow". 

I used to hackle and argue with those always talking about lifetime service and how it had been paying for their upgrade cycles. I've always felt lifetime was worth it, and a no-brainer. But, I never bought the posts bragging about selling old TiVos to get new ones at no real cost, until I did it myself.

Captainbob is failing to uptake that this forum is full of people with years, or a decade, of experience in both lifetime service and TiVo resale. He's in every thread, peeing against the wind. Heck, his long posts have me doing what others say most would do with mine (mostly skimming, rather than reading).

Sorry, Captainbob. No offense intended, although I know you'll feel I did offend you.

Do I feel that I'm going to be able to sell my Roamios in the future, to buy the next big thing? No. I'm not banking on it, either. I'm fine with where I'm at, so long as TiVo fixes a few things, and stays in business for a few years.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

nooneuknow said:


> I'll file your thoughts on buying a Roamio OTA for parts, under "unproven speculation". My own thoughts belong there, as well.
> 
> I can't find anything saying anybody that bought one, was forced to buy a service contract at point of sale (Best Buy), nor can I find any language in the TiVo legalese that invalidates the standard no reason required, 30-day, penalty-free, full refund on TiVo service plans.
> 
> ...


Just can't twist myself into a pretzel dwelling on saving $15 a month starting the spring of 2018. What can I tell you........


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

It's certainly sooner than that. No one should be paying retail price for a Roamio now or retail price for Lifetime service. I've been using the PLSR(??not sure if those are in the correct order) code for years now that knocks off $100. Because that was supposed to allow the box to be used as a qualifier for lifetime service. INstead of just getting the $400 MSD price for lifetime. That way when I sell the TiVos it's a better deal for the new owner. So not only is the break even point sooner, if I factor in the resale value the break even point moves up even sooner.

But ultimately it's good that TiVo gives people the option on most of their TiVos for lifetime or a monthly price. That was not the case with other DVR companies. More choices are always good.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

I don't think it's a good idea to be trying to talk folks into using the lifetime option.  If those with poor impulse control and lacking basic math skills want to shoulder a larger part of the burden of supporting TiVo's profit margin I don't want anyone to discourage them!


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> Essentially what you're saying is, hey for those that can't afford something there is an option that lets us buy in for less up front, but pay more in the long run.


No, I am saying that you should be comparing the NPV (net present value) of any costs or revenues for both options. To do this, you have to know your personal WACC (weighted average cost of capital)... essentially how much interest you could be earning on savings by not spending them or how much you have to pay to carry a balance on a credit card or borrow against a line of credit.

Paying a dollar today is more expensive than paying a dollar a year from now. If you have money sitting in a savings account, that dollar could have earned interest. If you don't, you have to borrow money from somewhere and pay interest. Savings earn nearly nothing, so it doesn't make much difference when you make payments, but if you have any debt that you could have paid down instead of buying a Tivo then the interest you pay is a very real cost that has to be factored into the total purchase price.

Unless you own all of your assets (cars, house, education, etc) outright then the cost of paying Tivo $500+ today also incurs a cost of paying interest somewhere else.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

dcline414 said:


> No, I am saying that you should be comparing the NPV (net present value) of any costs or revenues for both options. To do this, you have to know your personal WACC (weighted average cost of capital)... essentially how much interest you could be earning on savings by not spending them or how much you have to pay to carry a balance on a credit card or borrow against a line of credit.
> 
> Paying a dollar today is more expensive than paying a dollar a year from now. If you have money sitting in a savings account, that dollar could have earned interest. If you don't, you have to borrow money from somewhere and pay interest. Savings earn nearly nothing, so it doesn't make much difference when you make payments, but if you have any debt that you could have paid down instead of buying a Tivo then the interest you pay is a very real cost that has to be factored into the total purchase price.
> 
> Unless you own all of your assets (cars, house, education, etc) outright then the cost of paying Tivo $500+ today also incurs a cost of paying interest somewhere else.


$550 for a roamio basic with lifetime.

$15 month for 4 years plus $50 up front initial payment for Roamio OTA.

That's $770 for the Roamio OTA after 4 years and $550 for the Roamio basic ($150 on sale and $400 lifetime) and the Roamio basic has a good chance of being worth $200 after 4 years.

Let's say it was worth $200 after 4 years and you decide to not do Tivo anymore. Well you paid over 100% more if you made monthly payments instead of getting lifetime.

paying off low interest rate debt isn't going to touch that difference. And if you have high interest rate debt you shouldn't get a Tivo.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

ej42137 said:


> I don't think it's a good idea to be trying to talk folks into using the lifetime option. If those with poor impulse control and lacking basic math skills want to shoulder a larger part of the burden of supporting TiVo's profit margin I don't want anyone to discourage them!


+1, I've come to the conclusion that we should cheer lead these folks to keep paying Tivo every month. There's a certain crowd that either doesn't care or can't afford to pay any other way, and they are helping Tivo continue selling DVRs.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> $550 for a roamio basic with lifetime.
> 
> $15 month for 4 years plus $50 up front initial payment for Roamio OTA.
> 
> ...


You forgot that in four years, the technology could and probably will change a great deal along with the way people get their TV, which could make a used Tivo, including it's lifetime guarantee until it breaks, basically worthless. Case in point, my daughter was a Tivo user for many years, and now she uses the DVR that came with her cable package. She paid no up front cost for it, if it breaks, it's their problem to fix it, not hers, and being a long time Tivo user, she tells me that her new DVR does everything her Tivo did, and more, and she doesn't miss the Tivo at all. I was explaining to her how much I like my Roamio basic and what it does, and she kept responding, " my new DVR does that too". I'm sure there are people that still like "old" stuff, turntables are still selling, I know a couple of people that still use flip phones, people still buy tube output amplifiers, there are still people sticking with Blackberry, some folks like old cars, but if you like the latest and greatest technology, I doubt if you are going to want to buy someone else's used 4 year old device with no warranty at all, just for the possibility of saving $15 a month* if* it keeps operating. This also depends on Tivo still being in operation, with their current business model, and still supporting all these legacy products. The only reason I bought a Tivo, was because I cut the cord a couple of years ago (and in doing so, I have already saved about $2,300 in cable fees), and wanted a way to time shift live TV from OTA. If I had stayed with cable or satellite, there is no way I would have ever purchased a DVR. That's most likely why Tivos' subscriber base is shrinking. http://zatznotfunny.com/2013-08/tivo-drops-1-million-retail-subscribers/


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Captainbob said:


> I am very familiar with packing delicate electronic equipment for shipping. This has nothing to do with my problem with selling used electronics online.
> 
> For example, let's say you sell a piece of equipment, and 7 days later you get a communication from the customer that the device that you shipped him, worked one day and failed. Now the options are:
> 
> ...


Ebay's policies have changed drastically over the years. I only use PayPal Smart Connect to pay for all of my transactions. If there's a problem with the purchase, you just need to open a case with ebay. You'll be instructed to try contacting the seller to resolve the issue. If that doesn't work you simply return the item to the seller with tracking information for proof of delivery. Ebay will refund the full purchase price and original shipping costs to you once they've confirmed the item has been returned. Posting an item for sale "as is" or with no guarantee means absolutely nothing. You can still get your money back.

I agree about the service fees that ebay charges, but considering what it used to cost to place an ad in the local paper to sell an item, it's still a bargain. Craig's list is fine, but only up to a point. You have to know how to weed out the scammers from the honest buyers and sellers. I find that selling locally is more of a hassle than selling online. It can be like waiting for the cable guy to show up sometimes. You never know if or when they'll stop by. Selling online allows me to do things on my schedule.

Lifetime vs. monthly is a debate that will never go away. It mostly depends on your financial situation and what you're comfortable paying. Shelling out for lifetime up front can be more than a lot of people can afford so they go with a monthly plan. People don't always look at the long term with devices like this nor do they always consider the resale value. Used Tivos without lifetime are worth next to nothing. At least with lifetime you'll get a return on your investment.

The trick with buying technology that is likely to change is to sell the old technology while it's still viable. I refurbished a dozen or so HR10-250 HDTivos years ago and sold them for about $200-250 each. In less than a year, DirecTV dropped it from their product line and came out with their own DVR. Soon afterwards they started making the switch to mpeg4 broadcasts on a new satellite, rendering the HDTivos useless for watching or recording satellite TV in HD. Fortunately, they also had ATSC tuners and could get OTA broadcasts. Guide data was available via the older satellites since they were still broadcasting SD channels so the HDTivos weren't completely useless.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> So, again, why are you still posting here?


I'm here to post about TiVo. What are YOU doing here?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Captainbob said:


> You forgot that in four years, the technology could and probably will change a great deal along with the way people get their TV, which could make a used Tivo, including it's lifetime guarantee until it breaks, basically worthless. Case in point, my daughter was a Tivo user for many years, and now she uses the DVR that came with her cable package. She paid no up front cost for it, if it breaks, it's their problem to fix it, not hers, and being a long time Tivo user, she tells me that her new DVR does everything her Tivo did, and more, and she doesn't miss the Tivo at all. I was explaining to her how much I like my Roamio basic and what it does, and she kept responding, " my new DVR does that too". I'm sure there are people that still like "old" stuff, turntables are still selling, I know a couple of people that still use flip phones, people still buy tube output amplifiers, there are still people sticking with Blackberry, some folks like old cars, but if you like the latest and greatest technology, I doubt if you are going to want to buy someone else's used 4 year old device with no warranty at all, just for the possibility of saving $15 a month* if* it keeps operating. This also depends on Tivo still being in operation, with their current business model, and still supporting all these legacy products. The only reason I bought a Tivo, was because I cut the cord a couple of years ago (and in doing so, I have already saved about $2,300 in cable fees), and wanted a way to time shift live TV from OTA. If I had stayed with cable or satellite, there is no way I would have ever purchased a DVR. That's most likely why Tivos' subscriber base is shrinking. http://zatznotfunny.com/2013-08/tivo-drops-1-million-retail-subscribers/


The problem with that is that just about everyone I talk to that uses either a Comcast or FiOS DVR, has complained about missed recordings. They will sometimes miss more recordings in one month than I have missed using my TiVos over a ten+ year period.

Now I'm not sure if the cable companies do this on purpose or not. Because when these shows are missed, the people I've talked too will typically use their Comcast or FiOS VOD to watch the missed episode instead. And then that can bring other complaints since they sometimes can't skip over commercials.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Captainbob said:


> You forgot that in four years, the technology could and probably will change a great deal along with the way people get their TV, which could make a used Tivo, including it's lifetime guarantee until it breaks, basically worthless. Case in point, my daughter was a Tivo user for many years, and now she uses the DVR that came with her cable package. She paid no up front cost for it, if it breaks, it's their problem to fix it, not hers, and being a long time Tivo user, she tells me that her new DVR does everything her Tivo did, and more, and she doesn't miss the Tivo at all. I was explaining to her how much I like my Roamio basic and what it does, and she kept responding, " my new DVR does that too". I'm sure there are people that still like "old" stuff, turntables are still selling, I know a couple of people that still use flip phones, people still buy tube output amplifiers, there are still people sticking with Blackberry, some folks like old cars, but if you like the latest and greatest technology, I doubt if you are going to want to buy someone else's used 4 year old device with no warranty at all, just for the possibility of saving $15 a month if it keeps operating. This also depends on Tivo still being in operation, with their current business model, and still supporting all these legacy products. The only reason I bought a Tivo, was because I cut the cord a couple of years ago (and in doing so, I have already saved about $2,300 in cable fees), and wanted a way to time shift live TV from OTA. If I had stayed with cable or satellite, there is no way I would have ever purchased a DVR. That's most likely why Tivos' subscriber base is shrinking. http://zatznotfunny.com/2013-08/tivo-drops-1-million-retail-subscribers/


That is *retail subscribers*. Total subs are up thanks to their MSO business, and clearly they are interested in growing the retail business, otherwise why bring out the Roamio OTA?

FWIW: I think it is nice that Tivo offers both monthly and lifetime options for service. The company clearly understands that different people prefer different options.

As for the Roamio being obsolete in 4 years, I'd bet a large sum of money that even the OTA-only Roamio will still be very capable. 4K isn't going to take off, just like 3D didn't. Other than that, it is a very nice platform for delivering content, both streamed and recorded. The iPhone 4s was released 3 years ago, and it is still supported and very usable, even on the latest OS. Is it as fast as the 6s? No, but it isn't worthless.

Lastly, I'd be very curious to know what DVR your daughter has that "does everything her Tivo did, and more."


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Banker257 said:


> I'm here to post about TiVo.


That you don't own and by your own admission have no intent of owning ever again. The rest of us have some sort of stake in the discussion, you just want to bash them because you feel like you got a raw deal.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

ncted said:


> That is *retail subscribers*.
> Lastly, I'd be very curious to know what DVR your daughter has that "does everything her Tivo did, and more."


I believe she has the U-verse Total DVR, cause she is with At and T. She says it works great, can record 4 programs at once, and she doesn't miss her Tivo at all.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Captainbob said:


> I believe she has the U-verse Total DVR, cause she is with At and T. She says it works great, can record 4 programs at once, and she doesn't miss her Tivo at all.


OK. Yeah, I have played around with a friend's U-verse Total DVR. It is definitely better than any cable DVR I have used, but I would not say it is in any way superior to any Tivo I have used. That is my opinion anyway. Unfortunately, U-verse PQ is worse than even Dish, at least in my neck of the woods.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ncted said:


> Unfortunately, U-verse PQ is worse than even Dish, at least in my neck of the woods.


U-verse PQ is always going to be the worst of any provider because they compress the bejesus out of the video streams. They simply don't have enough bandwidth. I think their HD video streams run at 6Mbps, which is ridiculously low.


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

ncted said:


> As for the Roamio being obsolete in 4 years, I'd bet a large sum of money that even the OTA-only Roamio will still be very capable. 4K isn't going to take off, just like 3D didn't.


I agree, and think that content quality is less likely to change than delivery mechanism. OTA isn't going away, and probably isn't going to change much in that time frame. Cable, on the other hand, is constantly changing their encoding/compression/delivery mechanisms, so I think it is much more likely that a cable DVR would at least need an adapter to work in 4 years, if not flat out be obsolete. Roamio OTA is probably the safest bet for holding its value the longest, if that is a concern at all.

And (assuming ATSC tuners can decode 3D or 4k) the Tivo hardware can probably handle those via HDMI.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> You forgot that in four years, the technology could and probably will change a great deal along with the way people get their TV, which could make a used Tivo, including it's lifetime guarantee until it breaks, basically worthless. Case in point, my daughter was a Tivo user for many years, and now she uses the DVR that came with her cable package. She paid no up front cost for it, if it breaks, it's their problem to fix it, not hers, and being a long time Tivo user, she tells me that her new DVR does everything her Tivo did, and more, and she doesn't miss the Tivo at all. I was explaining to her how much I like my Roamio basic and what it does, and she kept responding, " my new DVR does that too". I'm sure there are people that still like "old" stuff, turntables are still selling, I know a couple of people that still use flip phones, people still buy tube output amplifiers, there are still people sticking with Blackberry, some folks like old cars, but if you like the latest and greatest technology, I doubt if you are going to want to buy someone else's used 4 year old device with no warranty at all, just for the possibility of saving $15 a month* if* it keeps operating. This also depends on Tivo still being in operation, with their current business model, and still supporting all these legacy products. The only reason I bought a Tivo, was because I cut the cord a couple of years ago (and in doing so, I have already saved about $2,300 in cable fees), and wanted a way to time shift live TV from OTA. If I had stayed with cable or satellite, there is no way I would have ever purchased a DVR. That's most likely why Tivos' subscriber base is shrinking. http://zatznotfunny.com/2013-08/tivo-drops-1-million-retail-subscribers/


You're making side arguments that have nothing to do with lifetime vs monthly payments. Your daughter using a different dvr. Retail tivo numbers.

There is a good market for used Tivos. People on this forum speak from experience. Go on Ebay right now and see what Tivos are going for of all different models. YOu don't have to be a buyer of used Tivos to sell them. I've sold quite a few and never bought a used Tivo.

I wouldn't be so worried about people buying used Tivos. The math on used Tivos isn't that bad at all. If you get one for $200 with lifetime. And then you compare that to shelling out $15/mo you can see that you'd break even in about a year. That's not much to ask for a used Tivo. And that's the reason there is a market for them.

And Tivos from 8 years ago work today so I don't get why you keep beating your broken record about technology quickly going obsolete. It clearly doesn't in the cable world despite how many times you say it does.

And yes a Tivo could go obsolete. You could also win the lottery.

and then even if your tivo was worthless after 4 years you'd still be ahead compared to making monthly payments.

btw, do you really really think OTA technology is going to change within 4 years?!??!? You have to realize that for it to change the government would have to ask everyone in America (every OTA user) to get a new box or tv in the next 4 years. And for what? To get 4k over the air transmissions? It seems highly unlikely.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> You're making side arguments that have nothing to do with lifetime vs monthly payments. Your daughter using a different dvr. Retail tivo numbers.
> 
> There is a good market for used Tivos. People on this forum speak from experience. Go on Ebay right now and see what Tivos are going for of all different models. YOu don't have to be a buyer of used Tivos to sell them. I've sold quite a few and never bought a used Tivo.
> 
> ...


I guess you don't really read my posts, or just scan them looking for something that will prove some point that you are trying to make. I never said that OTA technology would change. I said that technology and the way people get TV, will most probably change. The vast majority of people that use DVRs today use cable, and satellite. Those technologies could change making the products of the last couple of years, obsolete. I don't know for sure that this will happen, but you don't know that it won't. It's a gamble which I choose not to get involved with. Frankly, I really am not interested in seeing how many years I can keep running a $200 piece of gear, when new ones are coming out with more features, and better performance, just to save a few dollars a month. If I didn't feel that way, I probably would still be using a Pentium 4 with a dot matrix printer hooked up to it. 

You obviously think that it isn't smart to pay monthly, and I think it's stupid to buy a lifetime ( of the product) subscription on a piece of tech gear. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

BTW, happened to stumble across this post today, and this is exactly why have zero interest in a lifetime subscription:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=521083


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> That you don't own and by your own admission have no intent of owning ever again. The rest of us have some sort of stake in the discussion, you just want to bash them because you feel like you got a raw deal.


Who said I don't own?  Once again, I'm here to post about TiVo, what are you here to do?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> ..................
> btw, do you really really think OTA technology is going to change within 4 years?!??!? You have to realize that for it to change the government would have to ask everyone in America (every OTA user) to get a new box or tv in the next 4 years. And for what? To get 4k over the air transmissions? It seems highly unlikely.


We would have a better chance of winning the Powerball Lottery this week.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Captainbob said:


> ...........
> BTW, happened to stumble across this post today, and this is exactly why have zero interest in a lifetime subscription:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=521083


That's what an extended warranty is for. It would have covered it. I typically get the extended warranties on all my TiVos. But not because I'm worried they will break down. (I've used dozens and never had that happen). I get the extended warranty to help if I sell the Tivo a few years later. That way it can give a buyer that might be worried, peace of mind.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

nooneuknow said:


> I used to hackle and argue with those always talking about lifetime service and how it had been paying for their upgrade cycles. I've always felt lifetime was worth it, and a no-brainer. But, I never bought the posts bragging about selling old TiVos to get new ones at no real cost, until I did it myself.
> 
> Captainbob is failing to uptake that this forum is full of people with years, or a decade, of experience in both lifetime service and TiVo resale. He's in every thread, peeing against the wind. Heck, his long posts have me doing what others say most would do with mine (mostly skimming, rather than reading).
> 
> ...


I got a laugh out of that. 



dcline414 said:


> I agree, and think that content quality is less likely to change than delivery mechanism. OTA isn't going away, and probably isn't going to change much in that time frame. Cable, on the other hand, is constantly changing their encoding/compression/delivery mechanisms, so I think it is much more likely that a cable DVR would at least need an adapter to work in 4 years, if not flat out be obsolete. Roamio OTA is probably the safest bet for holding its value the longest, if that is a concern at all.
> 
> And (assuming ATSC tuners can decode 3D or 4k) the Tivo hardware can probably handle those via HDMI.


Cable is moving to H.264 for HD, which everything from the Premiere on can support. They can (sort of) handle SDV via TAs. Cable is still going to be using QAM based distribution in 10 years, so the cable TiVos will be just fine.

TiVo should be able to handle 3D, but definitely not 4K.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Banker257 said:


> Who said I don't own?


Seriously? You did. And here.

Just admit you're here to bash Tivo and nothing more.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> Seriously? You did. And here.
> 
> Just admit you're here to bash Tivo and nothing more.


Discussing my experiences of TiVo is only "bashing" to a fanboy that can't deal with the truth or opposing opinions.

Would you sleep better if I posted lies that YOU deem worthy? I don't understand why you feel the need to bash me. Argue the facts or ignore me. You're acting like a spoiled 4 year old that doesn't get his bowl of ice cream for dinner. 

Oh, and those posts have nothing to do with the fact that I still own a Premiere and a Premiere XL. Stop pounding square pegs into round holes, you're adding NOTHING to the discussion and are only embarrassing yourself.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Banker257 said:


> Discussing my experiences of TiVo is only "bashing" to a fanboy that can't deal with the truth or opposing opinions.
> 
> Would you sleep better if I posted lies that YOU deem worthy? I don't understand why you feel the need to bash me. Argue the facts or ignore me. You're acting like a spoiled 4 year old that doesn't get his bowl of ice cream for dinner.
> 
> Oh, and those posts have nothing to do with the fact that I still own a Premiere and a Premiere XL. Stop pounding square pegs into round holes, you're adding NOTHING to the discussion and are only embarrassing yourself.


+1 :up:


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> I guess you don't really read my posts, or just scan them looking for something that will prove some point that you are trying to make. I never said that OTA technology would change. I said that technology and the way people get TV, will most probably change.
> 
> The vast majority of people that use DVRs today use cable, and satellite. Those technologies could change making the products of the last couple of years, obsolete. I don't know for sure that this will happen, but you don't know that it won't. It's a gamble which I choose not to get involved with. Frankly, I really am not interested in seeing how many years I can keep running a $200 piece of gear, when new ones are coming out with more features, and better performance, just to save a few dollars a month. If I didn't feel that way, I probably would still be using a Pentium 4 with a dot matrix printer hooked up to it.
> 
> ...


You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You keep dismissing the "small amount" of money you would save by going with lifetime.

...while, at the same time, you are so concerned about a lifetime Tivo going obsolete prematurely and leaving you out a "small amount" of money.

And now you're splitting hairs by saying, I didn't say OTA tech will change. I said that technology and the way people get tv will change. Same difference. YOu keep worrying about Tivos going obsolete. and nevermind that you are an OTA user from what I've read.

And then you think some mystical new way of watching tv will happen in 2 years that will render all current boxes useless.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
> 
> You keep dismissing the "small amount" of money you would save by going with lifetime.
> 
> ...


I think you have a short circuit in the logic board between your ears. What I am saying, and I will type really slow, so you can get it, is that the small amount of money saved ( $15 a month,* only after the third year of owning the Tivo is finished)* isn't worth the possible hassle about the issues that I list:

1. Lifetime tied to the life of the device ( so if it breaks, I have to repair it, or buy another, or my lifetime is worthless) 
2. Changes in technology in say 4 years that would make a brand new model desirable. ( newer version would do more, for less money) 
3. Will Tivo in it's present form, and business model still be here in 4 years, since many consumers seem to be moving to DVRs provided by Cable and Dish. 
4. Will another company come out with a device that works better, for less, in 4 years, such as CM, which will most likely see improvements as the years go by. 
5. Not wanting to get involved in selling any used electronic gear to anyone to recoup money (that I invested in lifetime), such as Tivos, cellphones, 8 track tape players, Blackberrys, iPods, PC's. or anything else that I no longer find useful. 
6. Maybe I will move in 4 years, and won't be in an area where OTA is available.

Now if you don't understand any of those concerns , then I would advise that you just ignore anything I post, because you probably won't understand it either.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

I am looking forward to September 2015 to get free or very cheap parts. Some people are saying buy the $50 Roamio OTA now for cheap parts, but unless TiVo changes the lack of lifetime service and multi-service discount, imagine what the resell value will be in 12 months when the early impulse buyers' contracts end.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> I think you have a short circuit in the logic board between your ears. What I am saying, and I will type really slow, so you can get it, is that the small amount of money saved ( $15 a month,* only after the third year of owning the Tivo is finished)* isn't worth the possible hassle about the issues that I list:
> 
> 1. Lifetime tied to the life of the device ( so if it breaks, I have to repair it, or buy another, or my lifetime is worthless)
> 2. Changes in technology in say 4 years that would make a brand new model desirable. ( newer version would do more, for less money)
> ...


Again you're so overly concerned about having an obsolete piece of equipment and losing a few hundred while at the same time entirely dismissive of saving a few hundred by going with lifetime. This even though the odds greatly favor lifetime and saving money.

1. YOu can get a 3 yr warranty for $40 which virtually guarantees you will come out ahead with lifetime.

2. This is a reason for monthly payment but a weak one because dvr tech really hasn't changed much in 10 years. Once you can automatically record stuff, and play it back when you want and skip commercials there isn't much more needed. Tivos from 8 years ago still let you record tv automatically and watch tv when you want and allow you to skip commercials.

3. This acts like Tivo ever had a massive number of subscribers. They never did. And acts like Tivo's financials are weaker than ever. They aren't. Tivo is strongest financially then they've ever been thanks to settlements with cable cos over their patented dvr tech.

4. This goes with #2. I'm never going to say never, but just not seeing how the recording and playing back of OTA tv is going dramatically change in the next few years.

5. This isn't required to do better with lifetime. It is a way to offset the cost of a new box. OR a way to get out "early" and still come out ahead of monthly payments. NOt wanting to deal with reselling is perfectly reasonable and not wanting to do so certainly doesn't make lifetime more attractive. But it isn't required.

6. Maybe. Then you might be out what might amount to $.50/day for a year if you don't want to resell it.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Captainbob said:


> 4. Will another company come out with a device that works better, for less, in 4 years, such as CM, which will most likely see improvements as the years go by.


I wouldn't count on CM to do anything spectacular. They've already dropped support for the DTVPal and the 7400 (which was horrible). The DVR+ in no way compares to the Roamio and will probably suffer a similar fate. Could they leap frog Tivo? Sure, but not with the minimal investment and outsourcing to Echostar they are doing currently.

As for Simple.tv and Tablo, they have some good ideas, but they need to work on the implementation. I find it extremely unlikely there will be anything so much better than the Roamio to come out in the next 3 years that I would regret buying lifetime service.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> 1. You can get a 3 yr warranty for $40 which virtually guarantees you will come out ahead with lifetime.


You should apply the reasoning that you use for lifetime to extended warranty.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> You should apply the reasoning that you use for lifetime to extended warranty.


You should elaborate because who knows what point you are trying to make.

Since you didn't I am left to guess. I can only guess you are starting another argument about the merits of getting extended warranties. I am not arguing for or against those. Merely stating an extended warranty is available for $40/3 yrs in response to someone's concern over possible repairs etc.

Whether or not one it is worth it or why not self insure as it is probably cheaper in the long run etc is another matter. There is something to be said for having an extended warranty for purposes of reselling the unit down the road too. But it is another discussion. The only purpose here is to show the financial cost of guaranteeing your lifetime unit won't go belly up in 3 years.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

I'm actually coming around to Captainbob's way of thinking.

Currently all of my Tivos are lifetime - added the base Roamio a year ago when it first became available.

But the ones I use the most are the Roamio & a TivoHD XL, and the 3TB drive in my Roamio is already 3/4 full.

I'd sell the HDXL & replace it with a Roamio OTA, drop a cheap 3TB in it, use it for a year, then consider my options.

I managed to get $99 lifetime on the above TivoHD XL after only 2 years of paying $9.95/month, so my position is "never say never" on Roamio OTA lifetime.

Even if I let service expire all the shows would still be available for playback, and I'd have a 'spare parts' box for my current base Roamio.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> You should elaborate because who knows what point you are trying to make.


You seemed to figure it out okay, but my point is that purchasing extended warranties is such a bad idea as to taint any argument that includes it. Anyone that can figure out the benefit of lifetime shouldn't have anything to do with extended warranties.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

So has anyone managed to buy a OTA only TiVo lately, and if so, how did you manage to get it? Specifics are needed. I have tried a variety of different ways and have failed. Thanks.


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## mark_anderson_us (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm a cord cutter and very interested in OTA. Been using WMC for several years (2 boxes with silicon dust - 4 tuners). Getting tired with Windows updates; MCE seems to be dead as far as Microsoft is concerned: shame because it's great; and lack of good plug-ins for Amazon Prime, etc.

I would personally never fork out $500 for lifetime, as it's not transferable. Sure, after 3 years, I'm losing money, but I haven't had to fork out $500 (or $1,000) upfront and don't have any losses if I upgrade before the 3 year mark. 

I'm actually considering two x OTA units. $30 is still way cheaper than cable ($30 would barely cover cost of 2 x DVR's or all the damn fees tacked on to bill). Not withstanding price, OTA is SO much better than the dreadful quality on cable and Cable company service is generally appalling. 

Regards

mark


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

mark_anderson_us said:


> I'm a cord cutter and very interested in OTA. Been using WMC for several years (2 boxes with silicon dust - 4 tuners). Getting tired with Windows updates; MCE seems to be dead as far as Microsoft is concerned: shame because it's great; and lack of good plug-ins for Amazon Prime, etc.
> 
> I would personally never fork out $500 for lifetime, as it's not transferable. Sure, after 3 years, I'm losing money, but I haven't had to fork out $500 (or $1,000) upfront and don't have any losses if I upgrade before the 3 year mark.
> 
> ...


I agree, that OTA is so much better than cable and dish, as far as picture quality. I used to pay $15 a month for the DVR on my Satellite TV, for a crummy UI and poor quality HD. Spending only $15 a month total, plus $8 for Netflix, and it seems I have 10 times more to watch than I had with Satellite, and still saving over $1000 a year. In addition, I have all these local digital channels that I didn't get before with all the old time TV shows and movies and local channels.

BTW, stopped in Best Buys last night to pick up something, and was talking to one of the people in the section that sells Tivos, and she said they have been getting all kinds of questions on the OTA. She said they won't have any for another month, but they have ordered quite a few for customers.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mark_anderson_us said:


> I'm a cord cutter and very interested in OTA. Been using WMC for several years (2 boxes with silicon dust - 4 tuners). Getting tired with Windows updates; MCE seems to be dead as far as Microsoft is concerned: shame because it's great; and lack of good plug-ins for Amazon Prime, etc.
> 
> I would personally never fork out $500 for lifetime, as it's not transferable. Sure, after 3 years, I'm losing money, but I haven't had to fork out $500 (or $1,000) upfront and don't have any losses if I upgrade before the 3 year mark.


It's not $500 it's $400 using well known code PLSR when activating service, but there is an easy way to get a Roamio Basic (does OTA) with lifetime for $525 or so. Search for Tivo promo code on fleabay, don't pay the $49 asking price make a $25 offer. Box is $500 w/lifetime after you get the code, and you order directly from tivo.com.

Box will easily be worth $300 or more even after 2-3 years of service, so if you want to upgrade or sell down the road you'd only be paying $200 over that period of time which is WAY cheaper than $15/mo.

But you're always free to waste your money...


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## mark_anderson_us (Sep 23, 2014)

Captainbob said:


> I agree, that OTA is so much better than cable and dish, as far as picture quality. I used to pay $15 a month for the DVR on my Satellite TV, for a crummy UI and poor quality HD. Spending only $15 a month total, plus $8 for Netflix, and it seems I have 10 times more to watch than I had with Satellite, and still saving over $1000 a year. In addition, I have all these local digital channels that I didn't get before with all the old time TV shows and movies and local channels.
> 
> BTW, stopped in Best Buys last night to pick up something, and was talking to one of the people in the section that sells Tivos, and she said they have been getting all kinds of questions on the OTA. She said they won't have any for another month, but they have ordered quite a few for customers.


Cool - thanks


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## mark_anderson_us (Sep 23, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's not $500 it's $400 using well known code PLSR when activating service, but there is an easy way to get a Roamio Basic (does OTA) with lifetime for $525 or so. Search for Tivo promo code on fleabay, don't pay the $49 asking price make a $25 offer. Box is $500 w/lifetime after you get the code, and you order directly from tivo.com.
> 
> Box will easily be worth $300 or more even after 2-3 years of service, so if you want to upgrade or sell down the road you'd only be paying $200 over that period of time which is WAY cheaper than $15/mo.
> 
> But you're always free to waste your money...


Thanks for Tip.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mark_anderson_us said:


> I'm a cord cutter and very interested in OTA. Been using WMC for several years (2 boxes with silicon dust - 4 tuners). Getting tired with Windows updates; MCE seems to be dead as far as Microsoft is concerned: shame because it's great; and lack of good plug-ins for Amazon Prime, etc. *I would personally never fork out $500 for lifetime, as it's not transferable. *Sure, after 3 years, I'm losing money, but I haven't had to fork out $500 (or $1,000) upfront and don't have any losses if I upgrade before the 3 year mark. I'm actually considering two x OTA units. $30 is still way cheaper than cable ($30 would barely cover cost of 2 x DVR's or all the damn fees tacked on to bill). Not withstanding price, OTA is SO much better than the dreadful quality on cable and Cable company service is generally appalling. Regards mark


What are you saying isn't transferable? It is indeed transferable to the next owner of the TiVo, which is a huge factor in resale value when considering what slowbiscuit mentioned. If you meant transferable to another tivo you own, then true.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> You seemed to figure it out okay, but my point is that purchasing extended warranties is such a bad idea as to taint any argument that includes it. Anyone that can figure out the benefit of lifetime shouldn't have anything to do with extended warranties.


Glad I could read your mind.

The lifetime argument doesn't include getting a warranty. A decision of whether or not to get an extended warranty is totally independent of whether to choose lifetime or monthly payments.

The mention of extended warranties when talking about lifetime is just a way of showing those who believe a Tivo with lifetime has a high chance of exploding that $40 is all it takes to put those fears to rest. Personally I don't have such wild fears.

Personally I don't own an extended warranty on my Roamio.

I don't believe in them.

However, for the purpose of reselling, I can see why some would get them and I think they may be worth it for that because I know on Ebay that when you sell something and it has a warranty you can charge a bit more because it is more attractive to a buyer. You're likely to recoup a good chunk of the cost of you warranty when reselling your Tivo. You will have an easier time selling it. If the shipping process causes some connection inside the Tivo to go bad then the buyer has the warranty. Personally I still have time to get a warranty on my Roamio for this purpose and I might do it. Might not.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mark_anderson_us said:


> I would personally never fork out $500 for lifetime, as it's not transferable. Sure, after 3 years, I'm losing money, but I haven't had to fork out $500 (or $1,000) upfront and don't have any losses if I upgrade before the 3 year mark.


You do have "losses" before the 3 year mark compared to going with lifetime because with lifetime you could resell the unit and then you would come out ahead of the monthly payments. Others already pointing out warranties are transferrable and lifetime is only $400.



mark_anderson_us said:


> I'm actually considering two x OTA units. $30 is still way cheaper than cable ($30 would barely cover cost of 2 x DVR's or all the damn fees tacked on to bill).


 Better off getting a Roamio basic with lifetime and a Mini. Or at the very least a Mini and an OTA Roamio.

I'd probably wait for a good deal on a Roamio this xmas season. I imagine there is a great chance we will see a few since it will be 1 1/2 years since Tivo released the Roamio and Tivo already ran a Roamio Plus with lifetime deal for $600 a few months back. I figure we should see some deals on a basic model soon enough or an official price drop. At this point I figure regular price for a Tivo is a bit high because the price of electronics drops over time and the regular price is still the same as it was at release.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> Glad I could read your mind.
> 
> The lifetime argument doesn't include getting a warranty. It is just a way of showing those who believe a Tivo with lifetime has a high chance of exploding that $40 is all it takes to put those fears to rest. Personally I don't have such wild fears.
> 
> ...


I wonder what the percentage of people that buy lifetimes on current Tivos are. I would guess no more than 20% if that. Are there any statistics that Tivo releases to disclose that figure?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> I wonder what the percentage of people that buy lifetimes on current Tivos are. I would guess no more than 20% if that. Are there any statistics that Tivo releases to disclose that figure?


Why? I don't see the relevance. I figure most of America would rather pay nothing up front and make small monthly payments in perpetuity rather than pay a lot up front and save in the long run.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> Why? I don't see the relevance. I figure most of America would rather pay nothing up front and make small monthly payments in perpetuity rather than pay a lot up front and save in the long run.


Guess you didn't understand the question.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mark_anderson_us said:


> I would personally never fork out $500 for lifetime, as it's not transferable. Sure, after 3 years, I'm losing money, but I haven't had to fork out $500 (or $1,000) upfront and don't have any losses if I upgrade before the 3 year mark.
> 
> I'm actually considering two x OTA units. $30 is still way cheaper than cable ($30 would barely cover cost of 2 x DVR's or all the damn fees tacked on to bill). Not withstanding price, OTA is SO much better than the dreadful quality on cable and Cable company service is generally appalling.
> 
> ...


Lifetime is well worth it. Whether it's long term savings, resale value, etc, it's well worth it. Not buying Lifetime on a TiVo is just plain nuts.

OTA isn't always higher quality. Cable and DBS gets direct high-bitrate fiber feeds, and they compress themselves, whereas OTA stations often have a ton of sub-channels robbing bandwidth from the main channel. It just depends on the market and the cable provider...


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Bigg said:


> OTA isn't always higher quality. Cable and DBS gets direct high-bitrate fiber feeds, and they compress themselves, whereas OTA stations often have a ton of sub-channels robbing bandwidth from the main channel. It just depends on the market and the cable provider...


True enough. And you didn't mention that an OTA signal can be degraded by distance or obstruction as well. Not to mention 18 minutes of commercial breaks every hour with the remaining 42 minutes giving up the lower third for more advertisements.

If I weren't impatient and of Scottish-Jewish extraction I'd buy all my shows from Amazon Instant Video and Apple TV. But I'm a cheap bastard, plus it's important to me to ridicule "Under the Dome" in real time.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

ej42137 said:


> True enough. And you didn't mention that an OTA signal can be degraded by distance or obstruction as well. Not to mention 18 minutes of commercial breaks every hour with the remaining 42 minutes giving up the lower third for more advertisements.
> 
> If I weren't impatient and of Scottish-Jewish extraction I'd buy all my shows from Amazon Instant Video and Apple TV. But I'm a cheap bastard, plus it's important to me to ridicule "Under the Dome" in real time.


For most users of Dish and Cable, the signals are compressed. That is the only way that they can squeeze those 200+ crappy channels into your home, with the bandwidth they have to work with. OTA signals, on the prime channel with would be the X.1 channel are usually not compressed and have the bandwidth needed to transmit an uncompressed HD signal. The X.2 and X.3 are usually SD channels and sometimes compressed a bit. Everyone I talk with that has switched from Cable and Dish to OTA is impressed with the picture quality improvement they get.

As far as commercials, that is the main reason I have a Tivo, I don't watch commercials anymore.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Captainbob said:


> For most users of Dish and Cable, the signals are compressed.


That is true. However, many cable companies compress all channels except OTA channels.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> Guess you didn't understand the question.


I guess there was no reason for your question.


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

ej42137 said:


> True enough. And you didn't mention that an OTA signal can be degraded by distance or obstruction as well. Not to mention 18 minutes of commercial breaks every hour with the remaining 42 minutes giving up the lower third for more advertisements.
> 
> If I weren't impatient and of Scottish-Jewish extraction I'd buy all my shows from Amazon Instant Video and Apple TV. But I'm a cheap bastard, plus it's important to me to ridicule "Under the Dome" in real time.


Scott/Jew? Holy Moly! I bet Washington squints form the light when you take a dollar bill out of your wallet!


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## stanswx (Sep 26, 2004)

replaytv said:


> So has anyone managed to buy a OTA only TiVo lately, and if so, how did you manage to get it? Specifics are needed. I have tried a variety of different ways and have failed. Thanks.


No luck for me in Illinois. I went to my local Best Buy yesterday in Champaign, IL and they had never heard of it. Customer service sent me to home theater. They started looking on the website with the SKU #: 8758098 and of course that didn't work. He then looked it up in their other system and found it but there was no stock to be had in the midwest. He didn't seem to have a way to order from the warehouse like other lucky souls have done.

I noticed today that the Tivo website has removed the expected delivery dates on the OTA page. Very frustrating! If anyone has any tips to get one of these, please let us know!


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Captainbob said:


> For most users of Dish and Cable, the signals are compressed. That is the only way that they can squeeze those 200+ crappy channels into your home, with the bandwidth they have to work with. *OTA signals, on the prime channel with would be the X.1 channel are usually not compressed and have the bandwidth needed to transmit an uncompressed HD signal. The X.2 and X.3 are usually SD channels and sometimes compressed a bit. *Everyone I talk with that has switched from Cable and Dish to OTA is impressed with the picture quality improvement they get. As far as commercials, that is the main reason I have a Tivo, I don't watch commercials anymore.


You can't fit an X2 or an X3 if you don't compress X1. If you're calling it an "uncompressed HD signal" (which is untrue in and of itself, since ATSC uses MPEG-2 "compression"), then it would take up the full 19.8 Mbps. When I worked at NBC, our main channel was "compressed" to ~12.5 Mbps and the remainder was used for our sub-channel.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

rainwater said:


> That is true. However, many cable companies compress all channels except OTA channels.


Compress or bit-starve? Unless they are transcoding to MPEG4, I doubt they are doing any compression. I know that TWC in my location bit-starves almost every channel, including local networks. There are very few exceptions.

The satellite companies transcode to MPEG4 and then bit starve and down-res that, yet they still seem to come out looking better than many TWC channels.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

stanswx said:


> No luck for me in Illinois. I went to my local Best Buy yesterday in Champaign, IL and they had never heard of it. Customer service sent me to home theater. They started looking on the website with the SKU #: 8758098 and of course that didn't work. He then looked it up in their other system and found it but there was no stock to be had in the midwest. He didn't seem to have a way to order from the warehouse like other lucky souls have done.
> 
> I noticed today that the Tivo website has removed the expected delivery dates on the OTA page. Very frustrating! If anyone has any tips to get one of these, please let us know!


You are right, they took down all the expected delivery dates to the different Best Buys on the web site. Now I'm wondering if there is a problem with this product and that's why it isn't being delivered to the dealers in bulk.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ej42137 said:


> True enough. And you didn't mention that an OTA signal can be degraded by distance or obstruction as well. Not to mention 18 minutes of commercial breaks every hour with the remaining 42 minutes giving up the lower third for more advertisements.
> 
> If I weren't impatient and of Scottish-Jewish extraction I'd buy all my shows from Amazon Instant Video and Apple TV. But I'm a cheap bastard, plus it's important to me to ridicule "Under the Dome" in real time.


The distance has nothing to do with it. It's a digital signal, hence all-or-nothing. The time and lower third, while legitimate criticisms of the big networks, is going to be exactly the same on cable as on OTA. The only difference are some commercials that are subbed out on cable vs. OTA.



Captainbob said:


> For most users of Dish and Cable, the signals are compressed. That is the only way that they can squeeze those 200+ crappy channels into your home, with the bandwidth they have to work with. OTA signals, on the prime channel with would be the X.1 channel are usually not compressed and have the bandwidth needed to transmit an uncompressed HD signal. The X.2 and X.3 are usually SD channels and sometimes compressed a bit. Everyone I talk with that has switched from Cable and Dish to OTA is impressed with the picture quality improvement they get.
> 
> As far as commercials, that is the main reason I have a Tivo, I don't watch commercials anymore.


1. All signals transmitted to your home are compressed. Uncompressed HD video is something like 1gbps. Even the "full quality" 19 mbps MPEG-2 feeds aren't really the whole deal for some feeds anymore. Some cable channels are sent at lower bitrates to the providers, while others, like ESPN, send feeds that are well in excess of the quality provided by the "golden standard", like 15mbps MPEG-4. Google Fiber or soon C-Band are the only ways to get the full bitrate feed with re-compression. Some providers are just better at others at doing the re-compression and giving them enough bandwidth to look good.

2. You're already wrong from the get-go, since there are no uncompressed signals, but you are wrong yet again. A 6mhz OTA channel was designed for one, single, "full quality/golden standard" 19mbps MPEG-2 HD stream. It was NOT designed for subchannels, those just rob the main channel of bandwidth. Effectively nothing is transmitted at the full 19mbps anymore, but that is still, in theory, anyways, the golden standard of HDTV. Of course Blu-rays have much higher bitrates than that, with 24p content encoded offline with MPEG-4 AVC.

The bottom line is that OTA channels may look better. Sometimes. Depending on what you compare them to. And they may look worse.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Bigg said:


> The distance has nothing to do with it. It's a digital signal, hence all-or-nothing. The time and lower third, while legitimate criticisms of the big networks, is going to be exactly the same on cable as on OTA. The only difference are some commercials that are subbed out on cable vs. OTA.


Well distance does give more chances for obstructions or multipath issues to crop up.

And while it's true that any given piece is all or nothing, you can still get intermittent failures with digital transmission. (And it looks pretty funny when something causes an I-frame to get dropped or scrambled and the mpeg decoder is then applying P-frames to the wrong base image)

It's not static or snow, but intermittent macro-blocking _looks_ like something between all-or-nothing.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Captainbob said:


> For most users of Dish and Cable, the signals are compressed. That is the only way that they can squeeze those 200+ crappy channels into your home, with the bandwidth they have to work with. OTA signals, on the prime channel with would be the X.1 channel are usually not compressed and have the bandwidth needed to transmit an uncompressed HD signal. The X.2 and X.3 are usually SD channels and sometimes compressed a bit. Everyone I talk with that has switched from Cable and Dish to OTA is impressed with the picture quality improvement they get.
> 
> As far as commercials, that is the main reason I have a Tivo, I don't watch commercials anymore.


Right you are, Cap! That's my personal experience as well with OTA, and I suspect it's the rule, not the exception.

Also with you as far as jumping over commercials; the skip button on my remote has been worn blank. But there is no way to avoid bugs and crap on the lower thirds if you're watching advertisement-supported TV.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Banker257 said:


> Scott/Jew? Holy Moly! I bet Washington squints form the light when you take a dollar bill out of your wallet!


It's been so long I don't remember.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Bigg said:


> The distance has nothing to do with it. It's a digital signal, hence all-or-nothing.


No. This is a myth they used to tell around campfires when digital was new, but it's just not true. A TV signal isn't transmitted like Ethernet with ack/nack and recovery protocols; if data is lost on the way, it's lost, and the picture is impacted. If you have an OTA antenna you can demonstrate this for yourself by moving it out of alignment and seeing failure artifacts appear, degrading the picture. In between a very good picture and no picture you will see a crummy picture with lots of digital artifacts.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ej42137 said:


> No. This is a myth they used to tell around campfires when digital was new, but it's just not true. A TV signal isn't transmitted like Ethernet with ack/nack and recovery protocols; if data is lost on the way, it's lost, and the picture is impacted. If you have an OTA antenna you can demonstrate this for yourself by moving it out of alignment and seeing failure artifacts appear, degrading the picture. In between a very good picture and no picture you will see a crummy picture with lots of digital artifacts.


True, but for most people this distinction is meaningless. There is a very narrow range of getting a distorted digital picture. Digital TV is extremely bimodal when compared to analog TV signals where you had a continuum of picture quality.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> True, but for most people this distinction is meaningless. There is a very narrow range of getting a distorted digital picture. Digital TV is extremely bimodal when compared to analog TV signals where you had a continuum of picture quality.


For some values of "most". Where I live I have to make a choice between KABC and the other network affiliates. If I point my antenna such that KCBS _et al_ are getting an optimal signal then KABC is visibly degraded but still watchable, and _vice versa_. I grant you the drop-off is more abrupt than what I would expect from an analog signal, but it's certainly not what I would call a "vary narrow range".


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> Well distance does give more chances for obstructions or multipath issues to crop up.
> 
> And while it's true that any given piece is all or nothing, you can still get intermittent failures with digital transmission. (And it looks pretty funny when something causes an I-frame to get dropped or scrambled and the mpeg decoder is then applying P-frames to the wrong base image)
> 
> It's not static or snow, but intermittent macro-blocking _looks_ like something between all-or-nothing.


Right. So at a farther distance you are more likely to have it not work. There really isn't an in-between. Once you get more than an occasional macro-block, it rapidly become unusable, which is not working.



ej42137 said:


> No. This is a myth they used to tell around campfires when digital was new, but it's just not true. A TV signal isn't transmitted like Ethernet with ack/nack and recovery protocols; if data is lost on the way, it's lost, and the picture is impacted. If you have an OTA antenna you can demonstrate this for yourself by moving it out of alignment and seeing failure artifacts appear, degrading the picture. In between a very good picture and no picture you will see a crummy picture with lots of digital artifacts.


It's no myth. Once digital glitches out, it's pretty much useless. There really isn't an in-between like there was with analog. It either works or it doesn't. Yes, it has some sort of spectacular failure modes while it's failing, but it's just that, it's failing. As in NOT working.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Bigg said:


> It's no myth. Once digital glitches out, it's pretty much useless. There really isn't an in-between like there was with analog. It either works or it doesn't. Yes, it has some sort of spectacular failure modes while it's failing, but it's just that, it's failing. As in NOT working.


So which am I supposed to believe? Words written on my computer screen or mine own eyes?

Perhaps your experience is with antennae which are very directional and hence drop off very quickly. Or perhaps your tuners have different characteristics that those I am familiar with. All I can say is that my experience is that my OTA receiver goes from looking really good, better than cable, to slightly glitchy, to pretty glitchy, to really glitchy, to unwatchable, in stages as I adjust the antenna. It doesn't go from perfect to unwatchable without a transition.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

I think Bigg is not saying anything different than you are...he is just declaring anything more than an occasional glitch as "not working" while you define it as "partially working." However, you are seeing the same on screen effects.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Diana Collins said:


> I think Bigg is not saying anything different than you are...he is just declaring anything more than an occasional glitch as "not working" while you define it as "partially working." However, you are seeing the same on screen effects.


Compared to the analog days, if you lived in a fringe area with analog, you could still see a picture, albeit snowy. When it deteriorated to the point where the sync couldn't lock anymore then the picture became unviewable. There was a wide range between a good picture and something you couldn't watch. With digital, the difference is pretty narrow, in comparison. So most people will say that the picture is either good and clear with no artifacts ( view-able), or no picture at all, with a very sharp gradient from good to no good, or "it either works or it doesn't".


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> I think Bigg is not saying anything different than you are...he is just declaring anything more than an occasional glitch as "not working" while you define it as "partially working." However, you are seeing the same on screen effects.


 What is wrong with you? Don't you understand bickering about things that aren't worth arguing about is what makes this forum interesting for some people?

Of course the things I bicker about **are** valid issues.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

ej42137 said:


> So which am I supposed to believe? Words written on my computer screen or mine own eyes?
> 
> Perhaps your experience is with antennae which are very directional and hence drop off very quickly. Or perhaps your tuners have different characteristics that those I am familiar with. All I can say is that my experience is that my OTA receiver goes from looking really good, better than cable, to slightly glitchy, to pretty glitchy, to really glitchy, to unwatchable, in stages as I adjust the antenna. It doesn't go from perfect to unwatchable without a transition.


I have seen this with a rotor. Hand-pointing produces a less gradual change.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> So which am I supposed to believe? Words written on my computer screen or mine own eyes?
> 
> Perhaps your experience is with antennae which are very directional and hence drop off very quickly. Or perhaps your tuners have different characteristics that those I am familiar with. All I can say is that my experience is that my OTA receiver goes from looking really good, better than cable, to slightly glitchy, to pretty glitchy, to really glitchy, to unwatchable, in stages as I adjust the antenna. It doesn't go from perfect to unwatchable without a transition.


Meh. You're probably talking about the same thing as others, but just describing it different. The fact you can so easily go from really good to unwatchable is indicative of the sharp drop off of digital that others talk about.

And what's "really glitchy" compared to unwatchable? Or compared to "pretty glitchy?" Once digital starts glitching it's pretty frickin' unwatchable to me.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

There seems to be a difference between reception and multi-path issues. 

I mostly have multi-path issues and have seen times when I have "glitches" and it is still watchable and other times when the "glitches" make it unwatchable. 

Reception is a little different, I have messed around with an indoor antennas (have large roof mounted one) and watched a channel come and go completely by moving the antenna. There wasn't any glitching just picture - no picture.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> I think Bigg is not saying anything different than you are...he is just declaring anything more than an occasional glitch as "not working" while you define it as "partially working." However, you are seeing the same on screen effects.


Yup, pretty much.



Captainbob said:


> Compared to the analog days, if you lived in a fringe area with analog, you could still see a picture, albeit snowy. When it deteriorated to the point where the sync couldn't lock anymore then the picture became unviewable. There was a wide range between a good picture and something you couldn't watch. With digital, the difference is pretty narrow, in comparison. So most people will say that the picture is either good and clear with no artifacts ( view-able), or no picture at all, with a very sharp gradient from good to no good, or "it either works or it doesn't".


And this too. The range is *extremely* narrow.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Bigg said:


> Yup, pretty much.
> 
> And this too. The range is *extremely* narrow.


And I was so enjoying our little tiff. Well, I can always go next door and try "getting hit on your head" lessons. Cheers!


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

Banker257 said:


> If you don't have to sign up for service at point of purchase, I can see people buying one of these for parts, mostly the HD alone. That's got to be worth $50 right there!





Bigg said:


> There could be a penalty if you don't return. It's also silly to buy an entire Roamio for what amounts to a power supply. The hard drive you can get off of Newegg, and I'm sure someone sell a standalone PSU...


Don't forget about the case and remote in addition to the hard drive and power supply. Especially if the Roamio OTA is purchased used, it is doubtful that the these parts could be found at a lower price.


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## Davisadm (Jan 19, 2008)

Someone is selling a Roamio OTA on ebay. Bidding is at $100 with less than 4 hours to go! Crazy!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TiVo-Roamio...DVRs_Hard_Drive_Recorders&hash=item41881510c7


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

That is crazy! You can get a base Roamio for $150 if you shop around a little bit.


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## Davisadm (Jan 19, 2008)

Davisadm said:


> Someone is selling a Roamio OTA on ebay. Bidding is at $100 with less than 4 hours to go! Crazy!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TiVo-Roamio...DVRs_Hard_Drive_Recorders&hash=item41881510c7


Final price $100!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Davisadm said:


> Final price $100!


PT Barnum is still laughing in his grave!


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

Davisadm said:


> Final price $100!


So some smart/lucky person bought one for $50 at Best Buy and immediately flipped it on eBay for a $50 profit? Good deal for the seller!


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## Banker257 (Aug 4, 2014)

Davisadm said:


> Final price $100!


Still a bargain for spare parts.


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## Davisadm (Jan 19, 2008)

Banker257 said:


> Still a bargain for spare parts.


No it is not. Because you will be able to buy this for $50, not $100.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Banker257 said:


> Still a bargain for spare parts.


LOL, this says a lot.


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## stanswx (Sep 26, 2004)

FYI, the TiVo Roamio OTA is now available on the Best Buy website. None in stock at my local Best Buy, but I had one shipped to store. Picking up on Thursday (10/23). The SKU is 8758098 and actually works on the website now. Woot!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Banker257 said:


> Still a bargain for spare parts.


Why are people buying "spare parts" units? That makes NO SENSE. The mostly likely thing to fail is the hard drive, which you can get a much bigger hard drive off Newegg for cheap, you can get a power supply off of Amazon for $25, and there isn't really anything else in those things to replace.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Why are people buying "spare parts" units? That makes NO SENSE. The mostly likely thing to fail is the hard drive, which you can get a much bigger hard drive off Newegg for cheap, you can get a power supply off of Amazon for $25, and there isn't really anything else in those things to replace.


The fan. If you can get it for only $50 then that is a good deal for a spare PS, 500 GB hard drive,and fan. I was just at Best Buy here by the Pentagon and they have it in stock. I would have considered getting it for only $50 out of pocket.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Bigg said:


> Why are people buying "spare parts" units? That makes NO SENSE. The mostly likely thing to fail is the hard drive, which you can get a much bigger hard drive off Newegg for cheap, you can get a power supply off of Amazon for $25, and there isn't really anything else in those things to replace.


Why buy a power supply on Amazon for $25, you can get a brand new Roamio Power supply from Tivo for $5.99? https://www.tivo.com/shop/detail/roamios-power-adapter


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Captainbob said:


> Why buy a power supply on Amazon for $25, you can get a brand new Roamio Power supply from Tivo for $5.99? https://www.tivo.com/shop/detail/roamios-power-adapter


That's not the power supply.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> The fan. If you can get it for only $50 then that is a good deal for a spare PS, 500 GB hard drive,and fan. I was just at Best Buy here by the Pentagon and they have it in stock. I would have considered getting it for only $50 out of pocket.


Don't you get a spare remote too?

Those are $30 direct from Tivo. I wouldn't mind having a newer style one for my Minis.

If the PS for this was the same as the Roamio Plus I would have to buy one for parts.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> That's not the power supply.


Just contacted Tivo and they said that it is the same power supply that is used in the Basic.

https://www.tivo.com/shop/detail/roamios-power-adapter


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Don't you get a spare remote too?
> 
> Those are $30 direct from Tivo. I wouldn't mind having a newer style one for my Minis.
> 
> If the PS for this was the same as the Roamio Plus I would have to buy one for parts.


Yes. I forgot about the remote. That makes it an even better value.


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## magicspell (Jan 10, 2013)

Captainbob said:


> Just contacted Tivo and they said that it is the same power supply that is used in the Basic.
> 
> https://www.tivo.com/shop/detail/roamios-power-adapter


The external power "brick" is not the same as the internal power supply in the unit itself.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

magicspell said:


> The external power "brick" is not the same as the internal power supply in the unit itself.


Really? Then why does the Roamio Basic have a brick and the Plus and Pro do not?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

ncted said:


> Really? Then why does the Roamio Basic have a brick and the Plus and Pro do not?


Cause the Plus and the Pro also have an internal power _*converter.*_


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Perhaps I am missing something here, but my read is the power brick was supplying 2 Amps at 12 Volts directly to the Tivo Basic logic board. While I can see individual chips on the board might need voltage regulators between them and the power source, why would anything else need anything else done to the power? The HDD is going to want 12V for sure.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

ncted said:


> Perhaps I am missing something here, but my read is the power brick was supplying 2 Amps at 12 Volts directly to the Tivo Basic logic board. While I can see individual chips on the board might need voltage regulators between them and the power source, why would anything else need anything else done to the power? The HDD is going to want 12V for sure.


A computer power supply has two basic functions. Converting the AC to DC and producing and distributing the various voltages. The Roamio Basic has separated these two functions. It also appears that the second function has been moved to the MB and is not a separate module.

BTW, calling the Roamio Basic power supply a "brick" is a misnomer. It is a wall-wart.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> The fan. If you can get it for only $50 then that is a good deal for a spare PS, 500 GB hard drive,and fan. I was just at Best Buy here by the Pentagon and they have it in stock. I would have considered getting it for only $50 out of pocket.


That still makes no sense.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> A computer power supply has two basic functions. Converting the AC to DC and producing and distributing the various voltages. The Roamio Basic has separated these two functions. It also appears that the second function has been moved to the MB and is not a separate module.
> 
> BTW, calling the Roamio Basic power supply a "brick" is a misnomer. It is a wall-wart.


You are correct it is a wall wart that supplies the circuits in the Roamio with "main power'. Many digital second boards have voltage regulators and distribution networks that supply different voltages to different parts of the circuitry. Those distribution circuits are not generally referred to as "power supplies".


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Captainbob said:


> Those distribution circuits are not generally referred to as "power supplies".


Neither is a wall wart. Even TiVo refers to it as a power _*adapter*_. Yes, I know I "misspoke" in my previous post.

In any case, the main point is, and I am sure you agree, it is silly to buy an OTA Roamio for spare parts.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> Neither is a wall wart. Even TiVo refers to it as a power _*adapter*_. Yes, I know I "misspoke" in my previous post.
> 
> In any case, the main point is, and I am sure you agree, it is silly to buy an OTA Roamio for spare parts.


I wouldn't bother either. If I need a part for something I just get it. If I stock piled repair parts for everything I owned, through the years, I would need a railroad car to store them, and 99% of them would never be used.


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## mattydork (Mar 13, 2012)

replaytv said:


> So has anyone managed to buy a OTA only TiVo lately, and if so, how did you manage to get it? Specifics are needed. I have tried a variety of different ways and have failed. Thanks.


I purchased a Roamio OTA at Best Buy in Colorado Springs last Sunday. They had 2 on the shelf.

*What I have:* rabbit ears, a tv and an iPhone hotspot. *What I wanted:* a good DVR that works with rabbit ears and let's me (somehow) access my hotspot at a low cost of entry. I purchased the OTA without having to sign up for service at Best Buy. I got home and hooked up the Roamio and set about trying to get it to log in to my hotspot. It did see my phone in addition to the plethora of other wi-fi networks in my area. It would not directly access the hotspot though. A good friend/IT pro was available and helped me figure out how to "bridge" the connection through my MacBook and voila... I was online and downloading software and guide info. Once that finished, the OTA asked for my TiVo credentials. At this point I got online and signed up for the TiVo service and in relatively short time was watching tv after a quick channel scan.

A week in and I couldn't be more pleased with my decision. I have multiple season passes and am helping the unit to make better recommendations _(just because the Spanish stations outweigh the English does not mean they appeal to me)._ I just re-connected the bridge last night and successfully updated the guide and logged in to my Hulu and Netflix accounts just to make sure they work. I am thankful that a constant connection is not required. I can attest to the fact that the tuner in the OTA is better than the one in my tv as my CBS feed already looks immensely better.

Yes, I get the math on lifetime vs. monthly but this is the option that works for me for now. I am not exactly poor but I know what I can afford. I am not stupid, uneducated, idiotic, moronic or part of the huddled/unwashed masses (or any of the other names that have been lobbed on this forum). I am grateful that TiVo offered a great product that I have been looking for and it meets all my needs.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

mattydork said:


> Yes, I get the math on lifetime vs. monthly but this is the option that works for me for now. I am not exactly poor but I know what I can afford. I am not stupid, uneducated, idiotic, moronic or part of the huddled/unwashed masses (or any of the other names that have been lobbed on this forum). I am grateful that TiVo offered a great product that I have been looking for and it meets all my needs.


LOL.... That's funny... and true.......:up:


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mattydork said:


> It did see my phone in addition to the plethora of other wi-fi networks in my area.


Where do you live that has no DSL, no cable, no fiber, and yet has a lot of wifi networks available?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> A computer power supply has two basic functions. Converting the AC to DC and producing and distributing the various voltages. The Roamio Basic has separated these two functions. It also appears that the second function has been moved to the MB and is not a separate module.
> 
> BTW, calling the Roamio Basic power supply a "brick" is a misnomer. It is a wall-wart.


I thought it was called a power supply?


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## mattydork (Mar 13, 2012)

Bigg said:


> Where do you live that has no DSL, no cable, no fiber, and yet has a lot of wifi networks available?


Good question... I rent a finished basement in a house where wi-if and Internet are not provided nor is the option to run a separate line. The option I use is the hotspot on my phone. Not ideal but it works well.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mattydork said:


> Good question... I rent a finished basement in a house where wi-if and Internet are not provided nor is the option to run a separate line. The option I use is the hotspot on my phone. Not ideal but it works well.


You have a right to access whatever physical plants pass by the house, VDSL, cable, etc and have your own account, even if the owners of the house won't share their Wifi with you. What do they expect people to do? Not have TV and internet?


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

I received my Roamio OTA last week. It is working great. However, it does not have the green Tivo Roamio OTA silk-screened branding on the front of the device that the ones on the Engadget and CNet article had. It came in the OTA-specific box, but it just says Tivo Roamio in silver letters on the front. 

The cable card connection on the motherboard is there, but the slot and L connector are missing (I am assuming those would be present on a full Roamio). It looks like they took a regular Roamio Basic and removed the cable card assembly rather than actually creating a case specifically for the OTA-only model.


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## XMnut (Jan 17, 2004)

I was curious if there is a set limit of individual recording events for any of the Tivos ? I read that the Channel Master DVR+ has a 999 recording event limit no matter the size of the hard drive and will not record any scheduled program if you reach 999 unless you delete some programs. Channel Master claims it would slow the machine down drastically if the firmware let you record more than 999.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I've never seen anyone complain about a limit, so I doubt it, but that's a lot so I'm not sure if anyone has actually run into it if there is a limit. My wife currently has 577 recordings in her My Shows on her Roamio Pro. I only have 372 on mine.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I've never seen anyone complain about a limit, so I doubt it, but that's a lot so I'm not sure if anyone has actually run into it if there is a limit. My wife currently has 577 recordings in her My Shows on her Roamio Pro. I only have 372 on mine.


I've never heard of an issue with that either. My S3's with 2TB drives have 621 and 673 shows respectively including suggestions. I'm sure with a 3TB and certainly a 4TB drive that you would be over the number they gave.

Scott


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