# Lost - "The End" 5/23 series finale (spoilers)



## jkeegan

What an awesome episode!!!!!!!

Ok, it actually doesn't start for 1 hour. 

Here it comes!


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## MickeS

You forgot the year in the subject line.  And you beat me to the punch in starting the thread! Grr.  But it's fitting that you got to start it...


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## jkeegan

I actually spent time considering whether to put in the year!


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## wprager

MickeS said:


> You forgot the year in the subject line.  And you beat me to the punch in starting the thread! Grr.  But it's fitting that you got to start it...


There would have been a minor uprising if he hadn't.


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## wprager

So, since the title of the thread says "spoilers", should I post that Call Sheet from the next-to-last day of shooting? 

Just kidding, of course. I've tried very hard to forget what I saw on that. It's nearly worked.


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## Fool Me Twice

Watching the review show. I think the Verizon messages are pretty cool.

Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
4 8 15 16 23 42

I liked that one. I want someone to give me that card.


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## Shaunnick

I have created a poll for the end of the episode for everyone to indicate if they were satisfied with the ending or not. I said I would post a link to it in the finale show thread.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=449358


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## RegBarc

Speaking of epic lulz, somone in the massive Lost thread over at Something Awful just got banned for 100,000 hours for posting a spoiler.

Isn't that like 11 and 1/2 years?


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## wprager

RegBarc said:


> Speaking of epic lulz, somone in the massive Lost thread over at Something Awful just got banned for 100,000 hours for posting a spoiler.
> 
> Isn't that like 11 and 1/2 years?


Wow, I guess they're really serious over there. All we do here is b**** and complain.


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## Graymalkin

Well, there it is:



Spoiler



"My God, it's full of stars!"


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## MickeS

I guess I need to bow out for 3.5 hours now, until the finale is over here... sucks that it's not on simultaneously nationwide!


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## michad

It's going quite well so far. I cannot believe how unspoilered I am


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## mgk

Feels like 9000 commercials.
I think for every 5 minutes of lost it's 3 of commercials


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## BeanMeScot

At least they are short commercials. I am caught up and I started watching 40 minutes behind!


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## betts4

God this is great!! I am on the edge of my seat. 

I love the Target commercials.


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## jkeegan

Marshall, Will and Holly, on a routine expedition, met the greaaaatest earthquake, ever knoooown....

That waterfall in the cave is another awesome Land of the Lost reference. 

Loved the multiple Star Wars references early in the episode.

Gonna smeek like crazy - not reading anything until the episode is over. But we just caught up, so I wad finally able to post now.  Des just went down into the well..


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## scottykempf

It's turtles all the way down......


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## jkeegan

Ground shook at least a bit - that's good enough for me!!

Absolutely loving this.

I wonder if during the writers strike the writers ever told ABC (when negotiating their desire for an end to the show) that thru wanted to pull the plug on Lost.


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## BeanMeScot

It gives me goosebumps when someone remembers...


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## mgk

Ok I cried a lil bit when Claire remembered.


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## Win Joy Jr

Just noticed how much some of the actors have aged over the past six years... Charlie especially...


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## betts4

BeanMeScot said:


> It gives me goosebumps when someone remembers...


Me too! It,s wild


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## betts4

Omg


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## jkeegan

EXCELLENT that Locke's moving his toes was his trigger. I love this show.


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## HoosierFan

Anyone else watching WEWS in Cleveland? The signal is totally screwed up, stuttering and barely watchable. They had a live chat going on their website which they shut down at 9:54 because that is all anyone was talking about.

Nice timing!


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## BeanMeScot

Jack is resisting remembering.


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## BeanMeScot

Notice how the weather cleared. Something bad happens when it rains...


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## michad

Omg! 

And that is the first time I've ever typed that tla.


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## Turtleboy

This thread sucks.

There's a reason that there is a rule against starting a thread before the show ends. It's to prevent the thread from being a "chat" "hey, look at that" which is meaningless when read later.


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## michad

Well it's the last time it'll happen with Lost.


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## jkeegan

If you unplug it, and then you plug it back in again, the candy just drops right down.

Is that right?

Yea, and it's technically legal.

Brilliant.


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## Family

They made this an extra half hour to get in an hour and a half of commercials.


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## BeanMeScot

Turtleboy said:


> This thread sucks.


If you got out of it, I'm thinking the suckage will go wayyyyyy down.


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## Bierboy

Family said:


> They made this an extra half hour to get in an hour and a half of commercials.


That's the freakin' truth. ABC sucks. Never forgive them for this travesty of programming. There's absolutely NO continuity. Ruining the series finale of a great show. Ridiculous.


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## vertigo235

Jack is so going to turn into smoke!


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## markz

jkeegan said:


> If you unplug it, and then you plug it back in again, the candy just drops right down.
> 
> Is that right?
> 
> Yea, and it's technically legal.
> 
> Brilliant.


That's the secret! Desmond unplugged it (the rock from the hole), and Jack is plugging it back in!


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## markz

"I see dead people. Some of them don't even know they're dead."


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## vertigo235

vertigo235 said:


> Jack is so going to turn into smoke!


OK so maybe not...


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## mgk

Wow great ending imo


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## nyny523

OK, I am officially a mess...


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## Legion

Should of went with the autistic boy and the snow globe.


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## Win Joy Jr

Ok, I thought that purgatory was ruled out years ago by the producers...


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## michad

I was getting nervous until Christian showed up. Have to let it sit a few but now I'd go with nicely done.


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## bryhamm

mgk said:


> Wow great ending imo


Was kind of a let down for me. The first 2hrs 15min were great, then it just fell flat for me.


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## Rinkdog

Not happy 6 years for a b.s. ending. Cannot see ever watching again. Everyone is dead. Great idea! They made this up as they went along. I don't care what they say.


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## MonsterJoe

They stole the ending of Titanic!


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## Fool Me Twice

I've got to let his marinate awhile. Heady stuff. I have to deal with knowing I just saw them after death, while knowing that some of them had lives after they left the island. I wonder what those stories are like and if they'll ever get told?


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## betts4

Well I just spent 2 1/2 hours laughing, crying, yelling at the tv and cheering.

I have three pages of notes I scribbled as the episode went on and I haven't done that since season two.


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## nrrhgreg

Win Joy Jr said:


> Ok, I thought that purgatory was ruled out years ago by the producers...


The island wasn't purgatory, which was what Darlton said all along, but the alt-timeline was.


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## Queue

For some reason the only thing that really affected me was Ben apologizing to Locke at the end. I liked Ben's redemption and saving Hurley from the falling tree.

But overall, my initial impression is...I feel cheated.

I don't think the flash sideways (or now known as purgatory) paid off, and they still left some big questions from early in the series unanswered.

I would rather have seen what Hurley did on the island.


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## BeanMeScot

Win Joy Jr said:


> Ok, I thought that purgatory was ruled out years ago by the producers...





Rinkdog said:


> Not happy 6 years for a b.s. ending. Cannot see ever watching again. Everyone is dead. Great idea! They made this up as they went along. I don't care what they say.


I don't think most of them were dead until the flash sideways. The flash sideways was the purgaotryesque place. Christian said some died before and some died much later. They were just all meeting in the same place when they did die.


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## mrdazzo7

Win Joy Jr said:


> Ok, I thought that purgatory was ruled out years ago by the producers...





Rinkdog said:


> Not happy 6 years for a b.s. ending. Cannot see ever watching again. Everyone is dead. Great idea! They made this up as they went along. I don't care what they say.


Are you guys serious? It didn't mean the whole show was fake/purgatory, it means the sideways stuff this year was... they all died at different times and lived in the sideways world until the last one finally passed, and then they all reemembered and could move on. It has absolutely nothing to do with the island being fake/purgatory/a dream/etc.


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## betts4

I felt sad that Locke was there alone at the end. And Ben stayed behind.


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## scottykempf

Pretty good, but too many commercials and too much stringing along. Good ending to a good series.


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## Fool Me Twice

Good boy Vincent! Did Jack die in that moment? I suppose so, though I suppose it's possible that Rose and Bernard helped him back to health and his story continued. Like the man once said, we're going to have to watch that again.


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## betts4

The magic of the show was back in triplefold with this ending. Big thumbs up.


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## Mike Wells

Ah, what to say. My mind is still processing. Reeling?

So, I thought jkeegan was talking about something else. Or were you? Cause that's what happened with the magic stone cork at the bottom of the waterfall, right? Pull the cork, the island magic drains out making MIB killable, then pop it back in.

I still don't know what to make of the sideways. So, was the sidways always there, where dead people go, and we just started seeing it after the bomb? Tricky. And then, once they "know," then they can go somewhere? Hmm... Got a lot to think about here.


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## Gai-jin

Am I missing something, or were we left with more questions than answers?



Spoiler



Clearly, the alternate timeline was post death. The entire island timeline then, was pre-death, and really happened?

Or did they all actually die when Juliet set off the nuke in the hole? Since we had heard earlier that 'it worked'...

And why were Michael and his son not in the alternate reality?


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## mostman

Cue the "OMG They Were Always Dead!" confusion. 

Glad they put in that little dialog between Hurley and Ben to hopefully make it clear. Also, Sun and Jin remembered their deaths. That was the reveal.


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## BeanMeScot

Fool Me Twice said:


> Good boy Vincent! Did Jack die in that moment? I suppose so, though I suppose it's possible that Rose and Bernard helped him back to health and his story continued. Like the man once said, we're going to have to watch that again.


He saw the plane take off. He was among the first there.


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## Turtleboy

Hey Rob, 

Still 100&#37; sure that Desmond was trying to kill Locke when he hit him with the car, and that everyone who disagrees is an idiot?


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## Grumpy Pants

I loved it.


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## Fool Me Twice

I wonder if Ben wasn't dead, but was still on the island somehow and that's why he didn't go in. 

Also, I wonder how long Hurley was Number 1 and Ben was number 2. Again, stories that may never get told. Maybe on the DVD?


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## Graymalkin

So what was Vincent? An archangel? And why wasn't he there at the church? Don't all dogs go to Heaven?


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## Queue

OK, something cool. Didn't the Pilot open with the camera zoomed in of one of Jack's eyes and it opening? While he was in the bamboo field? So it ended with Jack closing his eye(s) in the same bamboo field.

Circle is complete stuff is kinda cool but didn't really add anything to the story.


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## NatasNJ

Pile of suck!


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## BeanMeScot

Fool Me Twice said:


> Also, I wonder how long Hurley was Number 1 and Ben was number 2. Again, stories that may never get told. Maybe on the DVD?


Lost 2: The Next Six Years??


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## Mike Wells

And yes, there are many unanswered questions, but I'd have to rate my feelings as "satisfied."


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## Fool Me Twice

Wait, just realized Jack's eye closed (duh). That's certainly his death.


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## vertigo235

Many of you don't seem to get it. 

They we're not dead on the island. The alternate timeline is after they were all dead. 

Clues. 

Kate saying to Jack that she missed him. 

The exchange between Ben and Hurley. 

They all died at different times.


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## zync

Rinkdog said:


> Not happy 6 years for a b.s. ending. Cannot see ever watching again. Everyone is dead. Great idea! They made this up as they went along. I don't care what they say.


I don't think you understand the ending. Same for the purgatory comment a few posts above.

What we've been seeing all season as a flash-sideways is actually a flash-post-death. Not connected to the "present-day" island in any fashion, but rather a state that is created by people after they die to connect to others they met in their life. It isn't clear when this occurs - probably because time doesn't mean anything. The ending to the flash-sideways sequence felt fulfilling.

Now, as far as the island is concerned, that's a massive letdown. So much is left unanswered. What was the light? Why does the rock keep things in balance? How did island-watchers come to be? Why does the island move? How does it move? Why can people leave, but at the same time Jacob didn't let them? What is up with the electromagnetism? Where/when does the island exist? Who made the statue? Why does it have only 4 toes? What about the temple? What is the smoke monster?

So much pieces left. The writers focused on this flash-sideways ending and answered a few relatively minor pieces of the island mythology, but completely failed to tell us what the hell the whole thing was about. Very disappointed in that.


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## Turtleboy

Gai-jin said:


> Am I missing something, or were we left with more questions than answers?
> 
> Clearly, the alternate timeline was post death. The entire island timeline then, was pre-death, and really happened?
> 
> Or did they all actually die when Juliet set off the nuke in the hole? Since we had heard earlier that 'it worked'...
> 
> And why were Michael and his son not in the alternate reality?


There's no need to post it in spoilers. This is a spoiler thread.

The flash sideways was post death. The entire Island timeline happened. The bomb didn't go off.

Juliet said "it worked" because she was just about to die. She saw what her "life" was going to be in the afterlife.


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## wouldworker

It was a shaggy dog story. Nothing more. That's the significance of Vincent showing up at the end.


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## Turtleboy

vertigo235 said:


> Many of you don't seem to get it.
> 
> They we're not dead on the island. The alternate timeline is after they were all dead.
> 
> Clues.
> 
> Kate saying to Jack that she missed him.
> 
> The exchange between Ben and Hurley.
> 
> They all died at different times.


Exactly. Clear as day.

Hurley and Ben ruled on the Island for quite some time, possibly.

My only question was how did Jack get out of the hole?


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## vertigo235

Oh and i forgot to say that. 

I liked it.


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## jkeegan

So so so good.

Beginning a rewatch when a friend gets here.

So no the nuke didn't work..

And by the way - apostles of the Faraday institute were always right! What happened, happened!!!!! Woohoooo!!!!!!

More soon.


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## Graymalkin

So basically, when I die, I'll have to live in a sideways reality until everybody important to me has died as well? And only then do we go into the light? Sheesh.


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## wouldworker

Graymalkin said:


> So basically, when I die, I'll have to live in a sideways reality until everybody important to me has died as well? And only then do we go into the light? Sheesh.


It was a TV show, not a documentary.


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## fliptheflop

I loved it although I would like to know what happened to some of them before they died. Once they were at the church and Jack figured it out I was hoping they'd rip off six feet under at the end and show how each died. What confuses me is why it took so long for Jack to figure out. If he died before a lot of them. Does that mean Kate was one of the last to die since he needed her and his dad to realize it?


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## Mike Wells

Not all of the losties were in the church. Plus, desmond and Mrs. Widmore had the discussion about Daniel and not "taking" him yet. So, Ben gets time to be with his daughter and Rousseau, maybe Michael and Walt are still catching up. 

I guess a big question would be - What is Desmond?


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## BeanMeScot

Graymalkin said:


> So basically, when I die, I'll have to live in a sideways reality until everybody important to me has died as well? And only then do we go into the light? Sheesh.


Why not? Sounds like a very poetic ending to me.


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## vertigo235

Turtleboy said:


> Exactly. Clear as day.
> 
> Hurley and Ben ruled on the Island for quite some time, possibly.
> 
> My only question was how did Jack get out of the hole?


Probably the same way they were teleported from the plane when they returned.

Remember this is a magical island.


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## chronatog7

Where was Richard? He was supposed to die at some point too.


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## TBoons

Ok... I stopped watching Lost season 1 after they started hearing noises in the woods. I think episode 2. What happened since then? In a nutshell of course.


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## Gai-jin

Turtleboy said:


> The bomb didn't go off.
> 
> Juliet said "it worked" because she was just about to die. She saw what her "life" was going to be in the afterlife.


Huh? I thought it was pretty clear that the nuke did go off, after Juliet beat on it with a rock? Didn't we actually see the explosion from the topside point of view?


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## BeanMeScot

Mike Wells said:


> Not all of the losties were in the church. Plus, desmond and Mrs. Widmore had the discussion about Daniel and not "taking" him yet. So, Ben gets time to be with his daughter and Rousseau, maybe Michael and Walt are still catching up.


Ana Lucia "wasn't ready" either. 


Mike Wells said:


> I guess a big question would be - What is Desmond?


He is the constant.


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## astrohip

zync said:


> Now, as far as the island is concerned, that's a massive letdown. So much is left unanswered. What was the light? Why does the rock keep things in balance? How did island-watchers come to be? Why does the island move? How does it move? Why can people leave, but at the same time Jacob didn't let them? What is up with the electromagnetism? Where/when does the island exist? Who made the statue? Why does it have only 4 toes? What about the temple? What is the smoke monster?


They answered everything that mattered to us as characters. The rest, not so important.

Fantastic ride. :up:


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## vertigo235

Remember Anna lucia wasn't ready either.


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## MonsterJoe

TBoons said:


> Ok... I stopped watching Lost season 1 after they started hearing noises in the woods. I think episode 2. What happened since then? In a nutshell of course.


everybody dies.


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## vertigo235

Gai-jin said:


> Huh? I thought it was pretty clear that the nuke did go off, after Juliet beat on it with a rock? Didn't we actually see the explosion from the topside point of view?


Oh the nuke definitely went off.

The nuke just didn't have the intended effect.


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## Mike Wells

And why didn't Jack turn into a smoke monster? (I thought for sure they were setting up Jack as a new MIB versus Hurley as new Jacob) He took the bath in the glowing water and ended up blasted outside somewhere, I'd guess. 

And while I'd like to know some of those answers about the mythology, I am still satisfied. Four toes on a statue or not doesn't affect our story.


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## BeanMeScot

astrohip said:


> They answered everything that mattered to us as characters. The rest, not so important.
> 
> Fantastic ride. :up:


I agree. I think I understand enough about what the light was to be satisfied. It was the electromagnetic heart of the island. That's why it had to be Desmond to unplug it.


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## fliptheflop

zync said:


> Now, as far as the island is concerned, that's a massive letdown. So much is left unanswered. What was the light? Why does the rock keep things in balance? How did island-watchers come to be? Why does the island move? How does it move? Why can people leave, but at the same time Jacob didn't let them? What is up with the electromagnetism? Where/when does the island exist? Who made the statue? Why does it have only 4 toes? What about the temple? What is the smoke monster?


The island is mysterious. Questions Answered.


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## Turtleboy

Gai-jin said:


> Huh? I thought it was pretty clear that the nuke did go off, after Juliet beat on it with a rock? Didn't we actually see the explosion from the topside point of view?


How is it possible for the nuke to have gone off if the Island was still there? Wouldn't a nuke have destroyed the island? Since they moved into the future and the island was still there, ergo, clearly, the nuke didn't go off.

Everything you saw about the plane landing, and the island on the bottom of the sea didn't really happen and was after they were dead.


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## BeanMeScot

I had predicted weeks ago that Hugo was going to be the next guardian of the island. I knew it was just too easy when Jack took the reins. I loved that Hugo asked Ben to help. That's all Ben ever really wanted, was to take care of the island. He wasn't good enough to be #1 but I think he would make a great #2.


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## jdfs

A lot of filler in this episode. I have to agree it seems like they made some of this up as it went along or at some point in the middle when they planned the number of episodes left. No way the original story arc had this ending. Too much emphasis was made in the first few seasons on things not nearly so important in the end, e.g.:
1) Walt
2) Darma
3) Libby
4) Pregnancy issues on the island
to name a few.

All of these were important plots at the time, but in the end, not so important. 

So the finale can be summed as:
1) They killed smokey by temporarily shutting down the islands powers and killing him while he was mortal
2) Restarted the islands powers to prevent the island from sinking
3) Revealed all the flash sideways were a sort of purgatory for the Losties as they all eventually died, but it was not shown how they all bit it
4) They all finally remembered their past life by running into the right person
5) They all went to heaven together, except for Ben and a few other more minor characters.


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## zync

astrohip said:


> They answered everything that mattered to us as characters. The rest, not so important.


I think folks are using a little too much revisionist history if looking back they're saying it was all about the human characters and the island mythology was secondary.


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## Turtleboy

vertigo235 said:


> Oh the nuke definitely went off.
> 
> The nuke just didn't have the intended effect.


I don't think it did.

How could it have gone off? The island was still there.

Unless all the nuke did was propel them back into the future (present).


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## dianebrat

Good boy Vincent!
I bawled at every damn trip down memory lane, but Sun's 'I remember" was fantastic, still didn't beat Sawyer and Juliet, that one had me pausing to catch up.

One of my favorite verizon blips in the pre-show "you took 6 years of my life, and I don't want them back" (paraphrasing)

A great ending in my book, I had my doubts they could pull it off, but they did.


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## wouldworker

Turtleboy said:


> Everything you saw about the plane landing, and the island on the bottom of the sea didn't really happen and was after they were dead.


Which is it? Did those things not happen or did they happen after everyone was dead?


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## Turtleboy

wouldworker said:


> Which is it? Did those things not happen or did they happen after everyone was dead?


Both.


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## mostman

It's also fitting that they used a stopper in the well - a reference back to the wine bottle analogy.


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## betts4

I really liked how they did the switching from sideways to island scenes. It really kept the ride going. I loved this episode. Oh yeah, still may be some questions or such but it tied it all up and it felt good.


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## fliptheflop

wouldworker said:


> Which is it? Did those things not happen or did they happen after everyone was dead?


Both


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## vertigo235

Turtleboy said:


> How is it possible for the nuke to have gone off if the Island was still there? Wouldn't a nuke have destroyed the island? Since they moved into the future and the island was still there, ergo, clearly, the nuke didn't go off.
> 
> Everything you saw about the plane landing, and the island on the bottom of the sea didn't really happen and was after they were dead.


Well sure. But remember this is an island that has dead people waking around and smoke monsters and healing water and special electromagnetic properties and moves around the earth etc etc etc

Are you to expect that a nuclear bomb would have the same effects here that it does outside of the island?


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## JLWINE

I'm still digesting the show--but one thing for sure this finale was excellently directed and acted and the soundtrack stirred the emotions.


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## wouldworker

Turtleboy said:


> Both.


I suppose that makes as much sense as anything that happened on this show.


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## zync

fliptheflop said:


> The island is mysterious. Questions Answered.


The island [story] is [something we can make crap loads of money on in a sequel so we shouldn't give away everything]. Questions Answered [in another 5-6 years].

There - I fixed it for you.


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## betts4

dianebrat said:


> One of my favorite verizon blips in the pre-show "you took 6 years of my life, and I don't want them back" (paraphrasing)


I loved the one that read "I never understood Trekkies, until I became a Lostie". I laughed out loud at that one. I am both a trekker and a lostie.


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## BeanMeScot

It was really good. There was soooo much to get through but I think they tied it all up rather neatly. I had been disappointed that this season was all about Jacob and MIB. Tonight brought everything else together.


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## fliptheflop

zync said:


> The island [story] is [something we can make crap loads of money on in a sequel so we shouldn't give away everything]. Questions Answered [in another 5-6 years].
> 
> There - I fixed it for you.


Sure that also but weird things happen on the island will have to do for now.


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## LordKronos

Graymalkin said:


> So what was Vincent? An archangel? And why wasn't he there at the church? Don't all dogs go to Heaven?


The church was still in purgatory. Vincent (like all dogs) gets to skip that step


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## zync

fliptheflop said:


> Sure that also but weird things happen on the island will have to do for now.


Well since that's all we're given and it is clear the writers don't actually know the answers to these questions, I suppose that's true.


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## DrZoidberg42

here's a fun Lost song for everyone:






NSFW language


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## Fool Me Twice

zync said:


> The island [story] is [something we can make crap loads of money on in a sequel so we shouldn't give away everything]. Questions Answered [in another 5-6 years].
> 
> There - I fixed it for you.


I don't remember you from the Lost threads, so I checked. You don't seem to be a fan. You've made your point. Move along now. I'm more interested in criticism from people who actually like the show.


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## BeanMeScot

When they were in the church and Christian was there, I wondered where the horse was. The next thing we saw was Vincent. LOL!


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## jdfs

zync said:


> Now, as far as the island is concerned, that's a massive letdown. So much is left unanswered. What was the light? Why does the rock keep things in balance? How did island-watchers come to be? Why does the island move? How does it move? Why can people leave, but at the same time Jacob didn't let them? What is up with the electromagnetism? Where/when does the island exist? Who made the statue? Why does it have only 4 toes? What about the temple? What is the smoke monster


The whole question about the statue with 4 toes always cracked me up. I never considered that a question. Civilizations have statues all the time for religious reasons, and they are often nonsensical. Just look at the Egyptians. Just take it as a sign there was an ancient civilization that once lived there.

As for the rest, the island was magical, had special properties, there is no possible logical explanation they could ever offer.


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## BeanMeScot

jdfs said:


> The whole question about the statue with 4 toes always cracked me up. I never considered that a question. Civilizations have statues all the time for religious reasons, and they are often nonsensical. Just look at the Egyptians. Just take it as a sign there was an ancient civilization that once lived there.


Look at animation. How often does a character have 5 fingers? They always have 4 or less. I view this the same.


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## jhowell

I think that they did a great job of wrapping the story up. The amount of exposition of the island mysteries seemed about right to me. Much more would have been lame in comparison to just leaving the mystery. I enjoyed the flash sideways resolution. I didn&#8217;t guess what was going on until the end.


----------



## Kamakzie

I'm more confused with this show than I ever was. Good emotions though with the characters remembering each other.


----------



## Paperboy2003

Never missed an episode and obsessed just like all of your over the last six years. All I can say is that I'm content.


----------



## Turtleboy

Michael wasn't there because he was stuck on the island for being a d-bag, and Walt was a kid and they really weren't friends with him, so he wasn't part of their afterlife.


----------



## Turtleboy

Kamakzie said:


> I'm more confused with this show than I ever was.


Why? Seemed pretty clear.


----------



## aaronwt

Legion said:


> Should of went with the autistic boy and the snow globe.


I loved that show. One of my favorite shows in the 80's


----------



## BeanMeScot

Turtleboy said:


> Why? Seemed pretty clear.


A LOT clearer than I thought they could possibly make it.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

What about Helen? What about Nadia?


----------



## fliptheflop

A lot of the mystery island stuff meant way more to us then it did to the story. The island wasn't normal. Not liking the ending because it didn't answer little things is selling short the great characters and stories we had for 6 seasons. The characters mattered most. Who cares how many toes a statue had?


----------



## BeanMeScot

Fool Me Twice said:


> What about Helen? What about Nadia?


Not everyone was there. Some could still be alive.


----------



## aaronwt

LordKronos said:


> The church was still in purgatory. Vincent (like all dogs) gets to skip that step


I thought animals don't have souls?


----------



## Fool Me Twice

BeanMeScot said:


> Not everyone was there. Some could still be alive.


But, time has no meaning there.


----------



## astrohip

zync said:


> I think folks are using a little too much revisionist history if looking back they're saying it was all about the human characters and the island mythology was secondary.


Not revising anything. Don't need to, I loved the ride. You're looking for something that's not there. You won't be happy.


----------



## BeanMeScot

Fool Me Twice said:


> But, time has no meaning there.


They get there when they are ready to be there. Not everyone was ready at the same time.


----------



## pjenkins

don't get all this love - i though it was a huge pile of suck, i actually came away laughing at how bad of an ending it was. i guess i'm alone. cheap way out across the board, horrible plotline/ending and just a big letdown in my view. i'll be interested to continue to read ya'll theories and love for how it all played out, for sure.


----------



## Mike Wells

Anyone else thing the apollo bar in the machine was a parallel for the island endgame? That's what I thought jkeegan was talking about earlier, from the episode - "If you unplug it and plug it back in, the candy drops down. And, it's technicall legal." 

Pull the power of the island and the rules change - MIB can die.

Love it!


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Guess I'm ready for Kimmel. Hope it's not all comedy bits.


----------



## Turtleboy

BeanMeScot said:


> Not everyone was there. Some could still be alive.


No one is alive and that includes your great grandchildren. We all die sometimes.


----------



## Sparty99

Legion said:


> Should of went with the autistic boy and the snow globe.


There's a theory out there that Lost (and about 300 other series) happened inside the snow globe because of minor crossovers throughout television. The fact that Oceanic is the universal airline for most TV shows is a big connector.


----------



## BeanMeScot

Mike Wells said:


> Anyone else thing the apollo bar in the machine was a parallel for the island endgame? That's what I thought jkeegan was talking about earlier, from the episode - "If you unplug it and plug it back in, the candy drops down. And, it's technicall legal."
> 
> Pull the power of the island and the rules change - MIB can die.
> 
> Love it!


Of course it was the same!


----------



## Turtleboy

How did Jack get out the hole?


----------



## Fish Man

nrrhgreg said:


> The island wasn't purgatory, which was what Darlton said all along, but the alt-timeline was.


Which is awesome! :up:


----------



## BeanMeScot

Turtleboy said:


> No one is alive and that includes your great grandchildren. We all die sometimes.


Sometime. I don't think we die more than once.


----------



## Fish Man

Mike Wells said:


> Anyone else thing the apollo bar in the machine was a parallel for the island endgame? That's what I thought jkeegan was talking about earlier, from the episode - "If you unplug it and plug it back in, the candy drops down. And, it's technicall legal."
> 
> Pull the power of the island and the rules change - MIB can die.
> 
> Love it!


And this.

Some awesome writing in this episode! :up:


----------



## BeanMeScot

Turtleboy said:


> How did Jack get out the hole?


How did Desmond wind up naked in the middle of the woods? How did Jack wind up in a stand of bamboo after 815 crashed?


----------



## Graymalkin

Let Brother Jimmy Kimmel explain it all to you.


----------



## Mike Wells

Turtleboy said:


> How did Jack get out the hole?


I thought it was the same as when the MIB got smoke-ified, except he was still alive. The scenes looked similar, except Jack wasn't dead yet and didn't have a smoke monster come out of him. I'm guessing he just got blasted out somehow. Or "island magic."


----------



## dswallow

What a horrible, steaming pile of garbage. The series would have been far better ending at the episode prior to this one. Because even the most meager imaginations provide for a better ending than this. For all this episode did to bring any kind of relevance to six years of this, it may as well have ended like that infamous season of Dallas began... except that might have been more satisfying itself.


----------



## Mike Wells

BeanMeScot said:


> Of course it was the same!


 It's late and I still can't get my mind around everything. I expect to be a master of the obvious.


----------



## Fish Man

Turtleboy said:


> How did Jack get out the hole?


To which BeanMeScot replied:



BeanMeScot said:


> How did Desmond wind up naked in the middle of the woods? How did Jack wind up in a stand of bamboo after 815 crashed?


Exactly.

It doesn't matter.

Some things are done for imagery on this show. Jack came full circle. His death essentially re-played the opening scene of the series in reverse. Like birth to death.

Excellent imagery there.


----------



## Mike Farrington

Turtleboy said:


> How is it possible for the nuke to have gone off if the Island was still there? Wouldn't a nuke have destroyed the island? Since they moved into the future and the island was still there, ergo, clearly, the nuke didn't go off.


The nuke went off. It interacted with the electromagnetism and caused the losties to jump back to their own time (with no energy leftover to irradiate the island).


----------



## LordKronos

jdfs said:


> As for the rest, the island was magical, had special properties, there is no possible logical explanation they could ever offer.


Exactly. From the instant we saw the smoke monster years ago (I think that was the first truly supernatural thing we saw), we had to know there were some things that could never be explained. It's like Superman. Where did he get his powers? From Krypton's sun (if I recall correctly). But why? What was special about the sun? How exactly did it give him his powers?

Once you hit into something supernatural, there is never going to be an explanation that explains everything. In most other shows/movies, we're generally content to say "ok, mysterious thing X made things the way they are...now lets move on with the story". I think in Lost, we all got so caught up in solving mystery's, I think some people just can't let go and stop wanting an endless series of explanations.

For myself, I think I had enough things explained that I was satisfied with the outcome. It was resolved so that there were a small enough number of unanswered questions for me to be comfortable with. Knowing some more of those answers, like the history of Jacobs mom and what exactly the magical light was and how it got there...to me that's about as important as knowing exactly why Krypton's sun gave superman his powers. I don't think knowing additional details there would add significantly to my appreciation, so I'm content to just say "that's just how things are, so lets move on"


----------



## Shaunnick

I am am both happy and sad. I am really going to miss these people. I am sure a lot of people are going to be upset that the alterno timeline was a post death universe but I was happy to see everypne together there at the end. I loved seeing all of the couples finally being able to be together. After all of the hell they went through on the island they all deserved some happiness.


----------



## Mike Wells

From the last official lost podcast, one of the producers, "Polarizing is a good thing, right?"


----------



## Dancar

Not to rain on anyone's party, but I stopped watching after two episodes, but my wife is upstairs watching the West Coast feed as I write this. I'm kinda glad I wasn't watching all this time, as I'd want the weird stuff about the island to come together and make sense.

One other thing that hasn't been said here yet, what does the sequence of numbers mean?


----------



## rlc1

Awful - just awful. Not a single question answered in this episode.

What exactly is the smoke monster?
What is the light on the island?
What exactly would have happened to the world if the Man In Black had escaped the island? Clearly since he could be (and was) killed like any normal man after Desmond turned off the light, his leaving couldn't have affected anything.

The sideways reality - meaningless. Who cares about some fantasy/purgatory reality that happened after everyone died? What does that add to the experience of the characters? Nothing.

The only thing this ending did is make me feel a little better about how badly Battlestar Galactica ended - because at least it wasn't as bad as this.


----------



## Sparty99

OK, I have not been involved in any of these threads because a lot of them are way over my head, but the one thing I hate in this one is the whole, "They made it up as they went along" complaint. Who cares? Honestly, how many TV shows go on the air knowing how it's going to end? Any of them? Did you watch the Lost pilot saying, "Well, I hope they know how this is going to end"? If so, well, get a life.


----------



## Mike Wells

Turtleboy said:


> How did Jack get out the hole?


Midichlorians.


----------



## JMikeD

I'd have to say I thought it was a satisfactory ending. I'm going to miss the show.

I said it as a joke, but I posted that Vincent was going to have the last line in the series on the thread discussing it quite a while ago, and I called it! Woof. 


Mike


----------



## DeathOrDeath

So, they all died in the crash?
And everything after that was dream/alternate?


----------



## cmontyburns

Turtleboy said:


> How did Jack get out the hole?





Mike Wells said:


> I thought it was the same as when the MIB got smoke-ified, except he was still alive. The scenes looked similar, except Jack wasn't dead yet and didn't have a smoke monster come out of him. I'm guessing he just got blasted out somehow. Or "island magic."


Yep. Pretty sure he ended up in the same place as the Man in Black did.

This one needs to sit a bit, but overall I think I am satisfied. It was kind of beautiful (and a nice payoff) how they all turned out to be each others' constants.

In a minor touch, I like how the flash-sideways sound turned out to be the sound of the Ajira plane flying overhead as it left the island.


----------



## Freshman JS

DeathOrDeath said:


> So, they all died in the crash?
> And everything after that was dream/alternate?


no


----------



## aaronwt

DeathOrDeath said:


> So, they all died in the crash?
> And everything after that was dream/alternate?


no


----------



## fliptheflop

DeathOrDeath said:


> So, they all died in the crash?
> And everything after that was dream/alternate?


Watch it again.

Listen to Jack's dad. He said some died before Jack and some died after. In the sideways they all needed their constant or a reminder of everything that happened to them.


----------



## DeathOrDeath

rlc1 said:


> The only thing this ending did is make me feel a little better about how badly Battlestar Galactica ended - because at least it wasn't as bad as this.


Total agreement.

I called it a year ago that the show would end with a closeup of an eye.
Other than that, I had no clue.

2 1/2 hours, at least an hour of commercials, and just a terrible ending.


----------



## pjenkins

Mike Wells said:


> Midichlorians.


:up:


----------



## aaronwt

rlc1 said:


> Awful - just awful. Not a single question answered in this episode.
> 
> What exactly is the smoke monster?
> What is the light on the island?
> What exactly would have happened to the world if the Man In Black had escaped the island? Clearly since he could be (and was) killed like any normal man after Desmond turned off the light, his leaving couldn't have affected anything.
> 
> The sideways reality - meaningless. Who cares about some fantasy/purgatory reality that happened after everyone died? What does that add to the experience of the characters? Nothing.
> 
> The only thing this ending did is make me feel a little better about how badly Battlestar Galactica ended - because at least it wasn't as bad as this.


I really liked the BSG ending.

I liked the LOST ending too.


----------



## Demandred

My problem with the way the story was resolved is that it makes everything about the "Flash Sideways" universe pointless. Why are Sun and Jin not married? Why is Nadia married to Sayid's brother? Why does Jack have a son? Why is the po-po after Kate this time? 

A ton of other questions, and none of it meant anything. Why would their version of purgatory be a world where the island is under water starting in the 1970's? If they created this purgatory for themselves, why make it different from the reality of the show?


----------



## zync

astrohip said:


> Not revising anything. Don't need to, I loved the ride. You're looking for something that's not there. You won't be happy.


I disagree here. If you go back to the first few seasons, which I'd admit was before the characters were developed, the island WAS the story. Everything that we loved about lost was wrapped up in the island's story. Then, over time, the characters became well developed and their stories took focus. But that doesn't mean that the island's story, or the need to tell it, went away.

The writers spent most of this season creating, and then explaining, a new story which was did little to advance the story from the first 5 seasons. This was my disappointment - so much time was spent on this new story that could have been spent on answering the original story, that when these questions remained unanswered one feels cheated.

So in short, the feeling of fulfillment I have comes from the answering of this season's side story. :up: The feeling of disappointment comes from the failure to answer the story of the first 5 seasons. :down::down::down:


----------



## dswallow

DeathOrDeath said:


> So, they all died in the crash?
> And everything after that was dream/alternate?


May as well have been.


----------



## Cindy1230

Just posting for the official tivo forum record- loved it and never went through a box of tissues within a 2.5 hour period so fast.

It may just be me - but I found it satisfying for someone who has experience a lot of loss and grief. That's all that you want in the world, to be able to be reunited with lost loved ones, in some capacity - via a dream, heaven, or whatever you believe in.


----------



## aaronwt

zync said:


> I disagree here. If you go back to the first few seasons, which I'd admit was before the characters were developed, the island WAS the story. Everything that we loved about lost was wrapped up in the island's story. Then, over time, the characters became well developed and their stories took focus. But that doesn't mean that the island's story, or the need to tell it, went away.
> 
> The writers spent most of this season creating, and then explaining, a new story which was did little to advance the story from the first 5 seasons. This was my disappointment - so much time was spent on this new story that could have been spent on answering the original story, that when these questions remained unanswered one feels cheated.
> 
> So in short, the feeling of fulfillment I have comes from the answering of this season's side story. :up: The feeling of disappointment comes from the failure to answer the story of the first 5 seasons. :down::down::down:


BUt I guess the real point is they got you to watch it.


----------



## Maui

Loved all but that last 10 minutes. That I am still digesting and have not made up my mind about.


----------



## mostman

I don't get the hate. You can't look at the small details and say things like, "What about the time the sand was blue?! Huh?! What say you?!"

it doesn't matter. The show was about bigger things. It was about the journey. The whole last season was about the island finding a new protector and the Losties finding themselves after death. Seriously. Anything else was window dressing.

Lost. A bunch of broken people crash on an island. They are not the first to end up there. The island has a seriously odd mythology. There is a protector on the island, keeping humans from destroying it. There is also a monster. The bunch of people join together to fix eachother and survive. The island screws with them every chance it gets. Its magic. They have many adventures. They create such a bond, that they must enter Heaven as a group. The End.


----------



## zync

aaronwt said:


> BUt I guess the real point is they got you to watch it.


AND they pulled something off that is nearly impossible - they got me to watch something live, and with commercials! I guess they win in the end


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Maui said:


> Loved all but that last 10 minutes. That I am still digesting and have not made up my mind about.


Yeah, I'm still struggling with it too.


----------



## fliptheflop

mostman said:


> I don't get the hate. You can't look at the small details and say things like, "What about the time the sand was blue?! Huh?! What say you?!"
> 
> it doesn't matter. The show was about bigger things. It was about the journey. The whole last season was about the island finding a new protector and the Losties finding themselves after death. Seriously. Anything else was window dressing.
> 
> Lost. A bunch of broken people crash on an island. They are not the first to end up there. The island has a seriously odd mythology. There is a protector on the island, keeping humans from destroying it. There is also a monster. The bunch of people join together to fix eachother and survive. The island screws with them every chance it gets. Its magic. They have many adventures. They create such a bond, that they must enter Heaven as a group. The End.


+1


----------



## aaronwt

zync said:


> AND they pulled something off that is nearly impossible - they got me to watch something live, and with commercials! I guess they win in the end


Well I caught up to the live feed around 10PM but when a commercial came around I paused it and did something else and came back to continue watching after a few minutes. I'm not going to watch commercials for any TV show, no matter how much I like it.


----------



## Cainebj

mostman said:


> It's also fitting that they used a stopper in the well - a reference back to the wine bottle analogy.


A thing is a phallic symbol if it's longer than it's wide.

Jack has a big one.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Snakes On A Plane 2: Electric Boogaloo


----------



## Maui

Maui said:


> Loved all but that last 10 minutes. That I am still digesting and have not made up my mind about.





Fool Me Twice said:


> Yeah, I'm still struggling with it too.


I'm not saying it was bad, but that i am just not sure how satisfying it was for me personally.


----------



## Johnny Dancing

DeathOrDeath said:


> So, they all died in the crash?
> And everything after that was dream/alternate?


Yes. Jack came out of the jungle toward the beach after waking immediately after the crash and then laid down and died, that is how the story ends. In the pilot he comes out of the jungle thinking he is alive and starts saving dead people and that is how the story begins.

It was sad when they showed the real wreckage and there were no survivors.

The Island was a purgatory were the dead from many different crashes and wrecks over the years tried to figure out what the heck was going on. The light was what your supposed to go in when you die. They did not know they were dead and that is why they were so interested in the light and energy. That is all I can explain for now. Bedtime.

I'll miss Lost. Best network drama ever.


----------



## ebf

NatasNJ said:


> Pile of suck!


+1


----------



## rlc1

Demandred said:


> My problem with the way the story was resolved is that it makes everything about the "Flash Sideways" universe pointless.


Exactly. It was just a writing gimmick to keep us wondering all season. If they needed to meet each other in the afterlife, then they could have all just appeared in the same place without all the nonsense of Desmond and Charlie needing to have near-death experiences in order to remember. If they were all dead in the sideways, why would anyone have a near-death expeience anyway?

A finale for a show like this, which has built itself up with six years of mysteries, needs to answer at least one or two of those mysteries. This finale didn't do that.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Maui said:


> I'm not saying it was bad, but that i am just not sure how satisfying it was for me personally.


I understand completely. Also, part of my struggle is dealing with the death of all the characters I love (technically it's some sort of afterlife, but still...)


----------



## dtle

My biggest unanswered peeve: 

1)Why and how were there still food drops by Dharma?

2)What's the big deal about keeping MIB's name unknown?


----------



## SoBelle0

Maui said:


> Loved all but that last 10 minutes. That I am still digesting and have not made up my mind about.


Said the exact same to my friends... Absolutely Loved it! Just still digesting those last 10 minutes or so. Reading more from y'all is helping me come to terms with it...

Goodness!! I'll miss this show, and these people, and this crazy stinkin' Island sooo much.



zync said:


> AND they pulled something off that is nearly impossible - they got me to watch something live, and with commercials! I guess they win in the end


And, this. 
Target rocks!


----------



## Anubys

a nice Finale...it all flowed very well except the last 15 minutes; which really dragged...

I always thought it would be Hugo...so I'm happy how it ended...I'm also glad Ben stayed and NOT as a new smoke monster...


----------



## mrdazzo7

I'm getting a kick out of all the commercial complaints, especially since I'm reading them on a TIVO FORUM... I waited 30 minutes before watching and didn't have to see a single commercial. Didn't phase me a bit because I have a Tivo and use it.


----------



## xuxa

When did Hurley die? Why was he in the church?


----------



## jwreiner

Sparty99 said:


> OK, I have not been involved in any of these threads because a lot of them are way over my head, but the one thing I hate in this one is the whole, "They made it up as they went along" complaint. Who cares? Honestly, how many TV shows go on the air knowing how it's going to end? Any of them? Did you watch the Lost pilot saying, "Well, I hope they know how this is going to end"? If so, well, get a life.


TV shows definitely have a huge challenge in delivering a yes on the question you identify. But is it really so bad to want the answer to be yes. It is yes for a lot of other entertainment: books, movies, plays, musicals, operas. Charles Dickens managed to write serialized novels where he certainly seemed to know where things were headed from the start. So the writers having a plan would seem to be a good thing to hope for. Does anybody affirmatively hope the writers don't have a plan?


----------



## tewcewl

Johnny Dancing said:


> Yes. Jack came out of the jungle toward the beach after waking immediately after the crash and then laid down and died, that is how the story ends. In the pilot he comes out of the jungle thinking he is alive and starts saving dead people and that is how the story begins.
> 
> It was sad when they showed the real wreckage and there were no survivors.
> 
> The Island was a purgatory were the dead from many different crashes and wrecks over the years tried to figure out what the heck was going on. The light was what your supposed to go in when you die. They did not know they were dead and that is why they were so interested in the light and energy. That is all I can explain for now. Bedtime.
> 
> I'll miss Lost. Best network drama ever.


How are people still missing this? It was NOT purgatory, what we just watched for six years. The only thing that was purgatory was the flash-sideways, which have clues provided in lines by Kate, Ben and Hugo.


dtle said:


> My biggest unanswered peeve:
> 
> 1)Why and how were there still food drops by Dharma?
> 
> 2)What's the big deal about keeping MIB's name unknown?


1) That question and some other ones will be answered on the season six DVD.

2) The producers have said they will not reveal his name as it's not important to them.

I can't believe it's over. Slowly sinking in for me.


----------



## mostman

Johnny Dancing said:


> In the pilot he comes out of the jungle thinking he is alive and starts saving dead people and that is how the story begins.
> 
> It was sad when they showed the real wreckage and there were no survivors.
> 
> The Island was a purgatory


Wow. No sir. You need to watch again. The island was real.


----------



## tewcewl

xuxa said:


> When did Hurley die? Why was he in the church?


He died at some point in the future. We don't know. But he was there for his friends.


----------



## fliptheflop

Johnny Dancing said:


> Yes. Jack came out of the jungle toward the beach after waking immediately after the crash and then laid down and died, that is how the story ends. In the pilot he comes out of the jungle thinking he is alive and starts saving dead people and that is how the story begins.
> 
> It was sad when they showed the real wreckage and there were no survivors.
> 
> The Island was a purgatory were the dead from many different crashes and wrecks over the years tried to figure out what the heck was going on. The light was what your supposed to go in when you die. They did not know they were dead and that is why they were so interested in the light and energy. That is all I can explain for now. Bedtime.
> 
> I'll miss Lost. Best network drama ever.


You should try and re watch the end
Jack saw the plane before he died. And Jin and Sun both saw how they drowned. Hurley was the keeper of the island for awhile after Jack.


----------



## mostman

xuxa said:


> When did Hurley die? Why was he in the church?


We don't know. Could be hundreds of years after the events of the finale.


----------



## Wil

TBoons said:


> Ok... I stopped watching Lost season 1 after they started hearing noises in the woods. I think episode 2. What happened since then? In a nutshell of course.


Magic.


----------



## ScottE22

I haven't posted much lately, but I'm always reading the excellent discussion here about LOST. I wanted to weigh in and say that I hope it's not as simplistic as "they all died in the crash," or "the sideways flashes were purgatory."

Given that, I'm wondering what was up with showing the wreckage in the end? Was it to show us that there were no survivors? I saw what looked like man-made structures in the background which supports the theory that they survived the crash, but I could be wrong.

Alternately, if the sideways flashes were their "purgatory," then (a) the first 5 seasons were pretty irrelevant, and (b) why weren't Lipidis, Miles, or Richard there?

Lipidis, Miles, and Richard not being there lend some support (in my mind) to the theory that they've been dead since the beginning due to the fact that none of them were on Oceanic 815.

Obviously, I still need to process this a bit...

Personally, I don't think they died in the crash, but the finale was pretty intense so I want to re-watch.


----------



## xuxa

tewcewl said:


> He died at some point in the future. We don't know. But he was there for his friends.


If that is the case why did they have to wait for others like Jack etc.


----------



## dswallow

mrdazzo7 said:


> I'm getting a kick out of all the commercial complaints, especially since I'm reading them on a TIVO FORUM... I waited 30 minutes before watching and didn't have to see a single commercial. Didn't phase me a bit because I have a Tivo and use it.


You needed to wait more like 45-50 minutes. I waited 32 minutes and ran out of buffered program to fast forward through just a bit later than the 1:45 mark. So I had to find something else to do for a little bit before continuing... actually didn't bother going back to finish watching till it was almost over (live), anyway.

More importantly, Breaking Bad will momentarily clear out the horrible taste left in my brain from Lost.


----------



## unicorngoddess

So why did Jack have a son with Juliet in the sideways? What was the point of that?

I don't like how they made the series finale all about the stuff that happened this season. It's like the previous 5 seasons didn't even matter.


----------



## cmontyburns

unicorngoddess said:


> I don't like how they made the series finale all about the stuff that happened this season. It's like the previous 5 seasons didn't even matter.


If you found the slightest bit of emotion in the ending, it refutes this comment entirely.


----------



## pcguru83

Well I suppose I'm in the minority of those who are disappointed. I'm still trying to fully grasp everything that just happened, but I'm not too happy with what I just saw. Maybe it's just me, but the whole idea of a sideways "purgatory" and an afterlife with a bright light that takes them "home" just seems so incredibly corny to me. 

I need some more time to think things over, but I don't feel that the finale has changed my opinion of this last season of Lost. I still maintain that the sixth and final season that just concluded could almost stand on it's own. It's a story all to itself, and a much different story that, quite frankly, I found pretty boring on the whole. 

Bottom line, I don't like the fantasy and overly-supernatural turn that LOST took towards the end. The finale I saw tonight was not the finale to the sci-fi show I started watching six years ago.


----------



## ScottE22

unicorngoddess said:


> So why did Jack have a son with Juliet in the sideways? What was the point of that?
> 
> I don't like how they made the series finale all about the stuff that happened this season. It's like the previous 5 seasons didn't even matter.


That's what makes me think there's something more to this that no one has teased out yet. The previous 5 seasons can't be just backstory for the purgatory subplot. Can they?!?


----------



## Turtleboy

ScottE22 said:


> That's what makes me think there's something more to this that no one has teased out yet. The previous 5 seasons can't be just backstory for the purgatory subplot. Can they?!?


No, the purgatory is epilogue.


----------



## mostman

xuxa said:


> If that is the case why did they have to wait for others like Jack etc.


We are supposed to assume that the flash sideways stuff happens WAY in the future. The timing of Jacks death to his coming around to being dead was just a stylized way to do it.

The point was that Jack was the man of science. The guy who doesn't believe. The guy who ended up sacrificing himself on a belief. Watch the scene where it appears, briefly, that plugging the stone back in didn't do anything. He had come full circle....was it justified....

Jack coming around last was brilliant. He finally gave in and trusted faith. Both in life, and death.


----------



## uncdrew

I was in mild horror when I thought they were going to do a blooper reel at the end. Then I thought that would have been awesome.


I was pretty satisfied with this, but mainly because it mirrored my belief in the afterlife pretty closely. I'd like to think the people who I most enjoyed and most loved will be there for me when it's time.


What's interesting is how predictable all our replies are. You could make a list of the people who would love this ending and who would hate it. 

... and just as predictable, I'm content and satisfied, but certainly not blown away. It was touching and dramatic. Loved the score. Really came to like these characters. I put it in my top 10 series, but towards the bottom. Six Feet Under, The Wire, MASH, Arrested Development were more enjoyable to me.

Bye Bye Lost. Thanks for the fun, and thanks for ending on top and not dragging it on.


----------



## DavidTigerFan

I think I liked it, but really, why have the purgatory at all? It's like the writers couldn't think of answers as to what the island was and other questions so they figured they'd pull a fast one on us and start talking about the sideways.


----------



## Turtleboy

For anyone who thinks that Jack died in the Pilot and the whole thing wasn't real, Jack was wearing different clothes. In the Pilot he was wearing his suit, and at the end it was a T-shirt and jeans. If they wanted it to be him dying to start with, they would have put him in the same outfit.

Not only that, he saw the Ajira Air plane fly overhead!

Why did they show the wreckage? Just because. No reason. To say goodbye. To show that the show was over. No meaning in the show at all. There's no there there.


----------



## whitson77

What a giant cop-out. The ending could have been great, but the Unitarian doo doo finale sucked balls.


----------



## ScottE22

Regardless of what becomes the generally understood ending, I will go on record as saying it's been an amazing ride for six years. Unlike some shows that inexplicably continue well past their prime (if they ever had a prime - "CSI: Miami," I'm talking to you!) Lost ended before it had the chance to get too ponderous.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Harold Perrineau on Kimmel says he thinks Michael is doomed to haunt the island as a whisper forever--not that the actor would know. I'm not sure why Michael wouldn't get the redemption that others did.


----------



## madscientist

Fool Me Twice said:


> What about Helen? What about Nadia?


Nadia was not there because she wasn't Sayid's true love. I did find it a bit harsh that Helen wasn't there. I guess Locke didn't love her that much either (well, he wouldn't give up his father for her so...)

Christian said that the island was the most important thing in their lives and the relationships they forged there caused them all to want to meet up after death.



jwreiner said:


> TV shows definitely have a huge challenge in delivering a yes on the question you identify. But is it really so bad to want the answer to be yes. It is yes for a lot of other entertainment: books, movies, plays, musicals, operas. Charles Dickens managed to write serialized novels where he certainly seemed to know where things were headed from the start. So the writers having a plan would seem to be a good thing to hope for. Does anybody affirmatively hope the writers don't have a plan?


What I don't understand is why people say there _wasn't_ a plan. Obviously not every minute, or even every minor plot point, was planned out: you can't do that in a TV series because actors leave or die or get really tall really fast or get busted for DUI, etc. You have to change things around: that's life. But the writers said they had a plan for the story. People who don't know anything about it at all say they didn't. I guess you just have to decide who you trust.



ScottE22 said:


> Lipidis, Miles, and Richard not being there lend some support (in my mind) to the theory that they've been dead since the beginning due to the fact that none of them were on Oceanic 815.


What about Juliette? She was there and she wasn't on the plane. No, there's absolutely no question that the island really happened. Christian told Jack as much at the end.


----------



## uncdrew

Boone was there alone too.


----------



## mostman

DavidTigerFan said:


> I think I liked it, but really, why have the purgatory at all? It's like the writers couldn't think of answers as to what the island was and other questions so they figured they'd pull a fast one on us and start talking about the sideways.


You have it because it's the absolute end of the story.

Put it this way. What if it ended with everyone leaving the island? Boo. What about the island just blowing up and everyone biting the dust at the same time? Also bad.

With this ending, we know where it all ultimately ends up. We watched the Losties meet. We watched them bond and grow together. We even watched some of them die. In the end, we watched them make their final journey together. It completes the arc.


----------



## Wil

rlc1 said:


> The only thing this ending did is make me feel a little better about how badly Battlestar Galactica ended - because at least it wasn't as bad as this.


The Bob Newhart bit they did for Kimmel was tremendous though. All is forgiven!


----------



## betts4

uncdrew said:


> Boone was there alone too.


Maybe Boone and Locke can hook up. 

I was thinking Nadia and Helen weren't there because they never were on the island.


----------



## Honora

BeanMeScot said:


> Look at animation. How often does a character have 5 fingers? They always have 4 or less. I view this the same.


I remember seeing a print cartoon showing the broken 4-toed statue, and from another angle you see the rest of the statue on the ground and it's Homer Simpson.


----------



## DavidTigerFan

mostman said:


> You have it because it's the absolute end of the story.
> 
> Put it this way. What if it ended with everyone leaving the island? Boo. What about the island just blowing up and everyone biting the dust at the same time? Also bad.
> 
> With this ending, we know where it all ultimately ends up. We watched the Losties meet. We watched them bond and grow together. We even watched some of them die. In the end, we watched them make their final journey together. It completes the arc.


Ok, I get that, but still, I think it left too many questions that I think they didn't have an answer to. They all set aside time in purgatory because of this great event in their lives, but we know nothing about why it was such a big event.


----------



## shaown

I liked it. Good ending, not sure how it could have been done much better.
They brought a lot of good emotion up from the early seasons. I actually enjoy the transition of the show from its early to late format (though Season 1 is still the best).

I am curious if they will give in to the pressure to make some more cash and do some followups on the post island / pre purgatory life for:
The folks on the plane that escaped + Rose, Bernard, Desmond, Hurley, and Ben, and ... they could have them find Jack and keep him alive.

I hope they don't though - I think it ended at the right place.


----------



## jwreiner

madscientist said:


> What I don't understand is why people say there _wasn't_ a plan.


I haven't read all the interviews with the people behind Lost, but friends of mine who have tell me that they admitted the whole Jacob/MiB story-arc wasn't conceived of until around season 3. Can anybody confirm whether that is true?


----------



## jdfs

xuxa said:


> If that is the case why did they have to wait for others like Jack etc.


Jack was not the last to die. Don't confuse what they showed on the island. He just happened to be the last to remember.


----------



## betts4

I liked the nod to Jack's father. Somebody said "really his name is Christian Sheperd?" and then at the end....he is the one that sheperd's Jack in to meet the rest of them.


----------



## Wil

mostman said:


> The timing of Jacks death to his coming around to being dead was just a stylized way to do it.


Three of your last five posts constitute about the best writing I have seen about the series. You were a good audience.


----------



## martinp13

I never watched an episode of Lost, but I thought I'd tune in for the finale. Except for the commercials, I liked the pace. Good music. The Target commercials were great.  Obviously I don't know much of anything about the show, so I can't comment on how good or bad I thought it was. I can buy into the "sideways as purgatory" explanation posted here... that makes sense. I couldn't figure out why Jack wandered into the middle of the bamboo and died there: I see here it was a nod to the pilot ep... always nice.

When everyone took a seat in the church, were they in the same seating arrangement as on the plane? Some looked spread out (4-wide on the left?)... I thought that would have been an interesting touch.


----------



## JMikeD

jwreiner said:


> I haven't read all the interviews with the people behind Lost, but friends of mine who have tell me that they admitted the whole Jacob/MiB story-arc wasn't conceived of until around season 3. Can anybody confirm whether that is true?


It's quite possible, as the story details are initially done in pretty broad strokes for the most part, and refined as you go along. There's nothing to "admit", it's normal.

In any event, the story has been told and it's over, and the producers said they told the story they wanted to tell.


----------



## betts4

I liked it when Locke said "Jack, I am surprised. I mean you are the obvious choice". It was funny because everyone was saying it couldn't be Jack because he was the obvious choice. Then it was him. And then it became Hurley after all.

The fight scene with Jack and Locke at the end on the cliff was awesome. And the last kiss from Kate. Yes.


----------



## T-Wolves

I loved the finale -- maybe the best 2.5 hours of TV I've ever seen. But then again *Lost *is my favorite show of all time (so far).

That said, I do have _some _disappointment about how much of the show ended up being irrelevant or misleading.

But frankly, after 6 years, that was the essence of *Lost *for me -- fantastic storytelling, great emotion, and lots of interesting mysteries, some of which were important, some of which were irrelevant. But the show always kept me coming back for more.

It was a great ride, and I'm glad I was around to see it. Supposedly the DVDs and Blu-Rays will have an additional 20 minutes of finale footage. I might as well order my copy now.... :up:


----------



## betts4

I am going to go with the theory that they weren't dead on the island. The sideways life was what they could have been if they weren't flawed and I am not sure if they even went to purgatory or if they just finally were able to merge the two lifes and live the one together where they have each other and all is good.


----------



## JMikeD

DavidTigerFan said:


> They all set aside time in purgatory


It wasnt purgatory. It doesn't fit the theological definition and the writers have said that it wasn't.


----------



## brermike

Wow, incredible! I loved it and was completely satisfied with the ending. Sure, there were some questions that weren't answered, but so what? Most, I can fill in the blanks myself. In the end, it was as emotional and epic as anything this show has ever done. What more can one ask for in an ending? And Jack dying in the same place he started - doubly incredible!


----------



## MickeS

Without reading what anyone else thought, if I had to sum up the finale in one word: fan-f**kin-tastic. One of the best, if not THE best, episodes of TV I've ever seen. I will miss this series. 

I bet many will disagree about the very last scenes, but I thought it was amazing. I'm a big weepie, so I was sobbing through the last 10 minutes of the show.

Now off to read what everyone else thought, and see how bad the episode really was.


----------



## Maui

ScottE22 said:


> Lipidis, Miles, and Richard not being there lend some support (in my mind) to the theory that they've been dead since the beginning due to the fact that none of them were on Oceanic 815.


Nut as someone said, wasn't Juliet there? Penny? Shoot, even Desmond was not on the original flight. He was already on the island and caused the crash.



Fool Me Twice said:


> Harold Perrineau on Kimmel says he thinks Michael is doomed to haunt the island as a whisper forever--not that the actor would know. I'm not sure why Michael wouldn't get the redemption that others did.


Maybe he was deemed as not being important enough to the others? After all he was not on the island that long and oh yeah, there was the whole murder of 2 women issue.


----------



## appleye1

JMikeD said:


> It wasnt purgatory. It doesn't fit the theological definition and the writers have said that it wasn't.


I agree, it was more like limbo, but not really that either. I'm sure someone can come up with a more proper term.


----------



## vman

Turtleboy said:


> Hey Rob,
> 
> Still 100% sure that Desmond was trying to kill Locke when he hit him with the car, and that everyone who disagrees is an idiot?


And that the universe was "broken" due to the detonation of the bomb and they had to fix it to resolve the flash-sideways alternate reality?


----------



## tewcewl

T-Wolves said:


> Supposedly the DVDs and Blu-Rays will have an additional 20 minutes of finale footage. I might as well order my copy now.... :up:


Just a minor correction. It isn't footage from the finale, but completely new filmed footage, all to answer additional questions they couldn't fit in the show. I'm hoping they do the outrigger one. The Dharma drop and the Hurleybird are dead-ringers as those are the questions they've previously hinted they'll answer.


----------



## toddorts

JMikeD said:


> It wasn't purgatory. It doesn't fit the theological definition and the writers have said that it wasn't.


No, the writers said the *island* wasn't purgatory. They never commented on the flash-sideways. I think it's pretty clear that it's a purgatory-like place.


----------



## MickeS

betts4 said:


> Well I just spent 2 1/2 hours laughing, crying, yelling at the tv and cheering.


Me too. Literally, YELLING at the TV. I only do that during sports.  Amazing ending to an amazing series.


----------



## MickeS

Turtleboy said:


> This thread sucks.
> 
> There's a reason that there is a rule against starting a thread before the show ends. It's to prevent the thread from being a "chat" "hey, look at that" which is meaningless when read later.


Not that it matters, but the rule is against starting a thread earlier than 1 hour before the show starts, which is why jkeegan started it when he did (exactly 1 hour before the EDT start time).

I kinda enjoy the ongoing commentary too.


----------



## sonnik

I wouldn't spoil Kimmel until his show airs on the West Coast, for what it's worth. This thread should really only be about Lost for another couple hours.

There are people on the West Coast and in Alaska/Hawaii that may want to browse the thread while they are waiting for Kimmel to start.


----------



## DUSlider

I thought the finale was excellent. To those that say they hated it and season 6 made seasons 1-5 irrelevant. Think about it this way.

The writers always said it was about the people and their experiences and lives together, the island was secondary, the island was just sort of where it all happened and made things even more interesting.

Season 6 doesn't happen or make sense without seasons 1-5. Those connections and relationships between the characters would have never been built and the ghosts/spirits at the end would have no reason to wait for each other.


----------



## hefe

Fool Me Twice said:


> Harold Perrineau on Kimmel says he thinks Michael is doomed to haunt the island as a whisper forever--not that the actor would know. I'm not sure why Michael wouldn't get the redemption that others did.


Michael will team up with Ben in a new sideways spinoff called "After-L*O*S*T"


----------



## SocratesJohnson

toddorts said:


> No, the writers said the *island* wasn't purgatory. They never commented on the flash-sideways. I think it's pretty clear that it's a purgatory-like place.


Yes, the writers found a *loophole* that let them shove the purgatory angle in there. :down:


----------



## mqpickles

Loved it!

The finale didn't try to do everything. But what it did try to do, it accomplished exceedingly well.

I was even touched at Sayid and Shannon reuniting, and I always thought they were a horrible couple.



zync said:


> I think folks are using a little too much revisionist history if looking back they're saying it was all about the human characters and the island mythology was secondary.


Here's part of my post from the 5/17/06 episode:



> One camp believes the main thing is the island mystery, and the characters are there to forward that plot.
> 
> The other camp (to which I mostly belong) think the main thing is the character study, and the island mystery is secondary, although still important. ...
> I'd weight it 60% character driven, 40% plot driven.


I didn't get a lot right about this show, but in the end, I think the 60/40 split holds up pretty well.



Fool Me Twice said:


> What about Helen? What about Nadia?


Although Locke and Sayid thought they were the most important people in their lives, at the end of the day, they simply weren't.



jdfs said:


> Jack was not the last to die. Don't confuse what they showed on the island. He just happened to be the last to remember.


 In other words, he was the last to "let go."



betts4 said:


> I liked it when Locke said "Jack, I am surprised. I mean you are the obvious choice".


 My favorite line of the night.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Didn't Christian say the Losties created the sideways world as a place they could meet and help each other move on to whatever comes next? So, do the other (non-Lostie) people in the sideways world not exist? Hurley seemed to think Ana Lucia was real, she just wasn't ready to go yet. Desmond seemed to think Daniel and his mom were real people as well. Did they help to build the world too? If they didn't help build it and they are real people, why are they there? Who helps these other people move on? What about bad people like Keamy--are they real? (Why isn't Keamy stuck on the island as a whisper?) And I'm still stuck on where are other loved ones like Ji-Yeon and Aaron? Other family members? And I can't accept that Shannon is Sayid's true love--it was Nadia.

I'm really struggling with this. So glad I'm not working Monday.


----------



## mqpickles

1. Someone else at least hinted at this, but I think Ben didn't want to go in because he's waiting for Alex. One thing I would change about this episode would be to have Ben say something about having someone left to wait for.

2. No one from the freighter was at the church, right? Wonder what happens to Miles. He became one of my favorites.

3. Stained glass window in the church was interesting. A cross, crescent, Start of David, yin/yang, ... and a donkey wheel.


----------



## MickeS

BeanMeScot said:


> I had predicted weeks ago that Hugo was going to be the next guardian of the island. I knew it was just too easy when Jack took the reins. I loved that Hugo asked Ben to help. That's all Ben ever really wanted, was to take care of the island. He wasn't good enough to be #1 but I think he would make a great #2.


This!



jdfs said:


> A lot of filler in this episode. I have to agree it seems like they made some of this up as it went along or at some point in the middle when they planned the number of episodes left. No way the original story arc had this ending.


Well, yeah. They were making an ongoing series that the networked hoped to extend many seasons - of course they had to keep making stuff up! I am pretty sure that they had a basic idea of the end game, and that when they also had an end date in mind, they got the rest of the story together. The last couple of seasons have felt very coherent and purposeful.



zync said:


> The island [story] is [something we can make crap loads of money on in a sequel so we shouldn't give away everything]. Questions Answered [in another 5-6 years].
> 
> There - I fixed it for you.


They'd be foolish not to leave hooks for future "Lost"-related projects.



dswallow said:


> What a horrible, steaming pile of garbage. The series would have been far better ending at the episode prior to this one. Because even the most meager imaginations provide for a better ending than this. For all this episode did to bring any kind of relevance to six years of this, it may as well have ended like that infamous season of Dallas began... except that might have been more satisfying itself.


I really do not get why someone who feels like this even bothered to watch this show before. Half the series (flashbacks/flashforwards/flash-sideways) have been almost-unheard-of-for-TV character based. They have obviously been tied into the island mystery (especially the last season), but the main focus has been to build a solid emotional ground for the characters we see in the island storyline.

That this part of the show, which was always incredibly important and made the show different from a lot of similar shows, seems to have been ignored or despised by so many that apparently watched the show, is hard for me to understand.


rlc1 said:


> Awful - just awful. Not a single question answered in this episode.
> 
> What exactly is the smoke monster?
> What is the light on the island?
> What exactly would have happened to the world if the Man In Black had escaped the island? Clearly since he could be (and was) killed like any normal man after Desmond turned off the light, his leaving couldn't have affected anything.
> 
> The sideways reality - meaningless. Who cares about some fantasy/purgatory reality that happened after everyone died? What does that add to the experience of the characters? Nothing.
> 
> The only thing this ending did is make me feel a little better about how badly Battlestar Galactica ended - because at least it wasn't as bad as this.


Seriously? Did you also come away from "The Phantom menace" upset that Lucas didn't delve more into exactly HOW the Midichlorians communicated with the Force? And why didn't he explain WHAT the Force is? And in "Raiders of the Lost ark", I can't believe there wasn't an explanation exactly of HOW God knew to kill Nazis and WHY it was enough to close your eyes to escape death?

As for the stuff about the characters, see my previous paragraph. If you didn't care about what happened to these characters, I can't figure out why you watched the show.



mostman said:


> Wow. No sir. You need to watch again. The island was real.


This episode, like the Jacob/MIB centric one a couple of weeks ago, were some of the most straightforward "Lost" episodes there have been. I am not sure why people think they were dead on the island the whole time.


----------



## dagojr

wouldworker said:


> It was a TV show, not a documentary.


This has to be the best comment EVER!!! lol


----------



## MickeS

The "tender moments" montage on Kimmel made me LOL.


----------



## MickeS

DavidTigerFan said:


> Ok, I get that, but still, I think it left too many questions that I think they didn't have an answer to. They all set aside time in purgatory because of this great event in their lives, but *we know nothing about why it was such a big event*.


Check out seasons 1 to 6.


----------



## speedy4022

SocratesJohnson said:


> Yes, the writers found a *loophole* that let them shove the purgatory angle in there. :down:


Yeah sadly the ending seemed like the writers getting lazy. I enjoyed the episode up to the last few minutes and the ending fell flat.


----------



## dandrewk

I'm trying to remember - in the pilot, did the dog find Jack in the bamboo forest?


----------



## Fool Me Twice

dandrewk said:


> I'm trying to remember - in the pilot, did the dog find Jack in the bamboo forest?


Yes. And in the (non-canonical?) mobi-sodes, Christian sent Vincent to wake Jack up saying, "We've got work to do."


----------



## MickeS

dandrewk said:


> I'm trying to remember - in the pilot, did the dog find Jack in the bamboo forest?


Yes. If it wasn't a shot for shot replica of the opening shots from the pilot, it was pretty close.


----------



## atrac

Ugh. I have many people who ditched the show a few years ago who are going to ask me about the big finale and want me to answer questions for them. I'm going to have to tell them that pretty much everything they saw had no explanation and the finale only explained the final season that they didn't watch.


----------



## MickeS

Fool Me Twice said:


> Didn't Christian say the Losties created the sideways world as a place they could meet and help each other move on to whatever comes next? So, do the other (non-Lostie) people in the sideways world not exist? Hurley seemed to think Ana Lucia was real, she just wasn't ready to go yet. Desmond seemed to think Daniel and his mom were real people as well. Did they help to build the world too? If they didn't help build it and they are real people, why are they there? Who helps these other people move on? What about bad people like Keamy--are they real? (Why isn't Keamy stuck on the island as a whisper?) And I'm still stuck on where are other loved ones like Ji-Yeon and Aaron? Other family members? And I can't accept that Shannon is Sayid's true love--it was Nadia.
> 
> I'm really struggling with this. So glad I'm not working Monday.


I would say that the sideways view is a combined vision, based on the common experiences of the people in it. To be honest, I don't really care too much about what exactly it is - I know what it represents and that worked for me. I can understand the point some have made about the sideways being an afterlife feeling like a way to "cheat" though, even if I don't feel that way.


----------



## MickeS

atrac said:


> Ugh. I have many people who ditched the show a few years ago who are going to ask me about the big finale and want me to answer questions for them. *I'm going to have to tell them that pretty much everything they saw had no explanation* and the finale only explained the final season that they didn't watch.


Like what? I can't think of a whole lot of things in the island reality that still need explaining...


----------



## JYoung

zync said:


> I think folks are using a little too much revisionist history if looking back they're saying it was all about the human characters and the island mythology was secondary.


No, every interview I've seen with Cuse and Lindelof in the past five years has them saying that the show is about the characters and less about the mythology.

And if you hadn't figured that out by "Walkabout", I don't think you were paying attention.



pcguru83 said:


> Bottom line, I don't like the fantasy and overly-supernatural turn that LOST took towards the end. The finale I saw tonight was not the finale to the sci-fi show I started watching six years ago.


When was Lost ever a Science Fiction show?
I never got that from watching the show.



MickeS said:


> Seriously? Did you also come away from "The Phantom menace" upset that Lucas didn't delve more into exactly HOW the Midichlorians communicated with the Force? And why didn't he explain WHAT the Force is?


I walked away from the Phantom Menace thinking Lucas had screwed the pooch.

My one complaint: Shannon???!!!! Shannon is Sayid's true love?
Not sure I buy that.

Overall, I am satisfied with the finale and I will admit to tearing up at the end.
I was a bit disappointed that Jack was initially chosen as Jacob's replacement because I thought that Hurley would have been a better choice in the long run so I appreciated how it all worked out at the end.

I see that at the heart, Lost is Jack's journey from a man of science to a man of faith and how he had to call upon his faith at the end.

The only other thing I'd like to see answered is what was the intended storyline with Walt?


----------



## dagojr

madscientist said:


> Nadia was not there because she wasn't Sayid's true love. I did find it a bit harsh that Helen wasn't there. I guess Locke didn't love her that much either (well, he wouldn't give up his father for her so...)
> 
> Christian said that the island was the most important thing in their lives and the relationships they forged there caused them all to want to meet up after death.
> 
> What I don't understand is why people say there _wasn't_ a plan. Obviously not every minute, or even every minor plot point, was planned out: you can't do that in a TV series because actors leave or die or get really tall really fast or get busted for DUI, etc. You have to change things around: that's life. But the writers said they had a plan for the story. People who don't know anything about it at all say they didn't. I guess you just have to decide who you trust.
> 
> What about Juliette? She was there and she wasn't on the plane. No, there's absolutely no question that the island really happened. Christian told Jack as much at the end.


confused about Eloise(sp), she seemed to know as much as she did in the previous seasons.. how does that tie in??


----------



## dagojr

mostman said:


> You have it because it's the absolute end of the story.
> 
> Put it this way. What if it ended with everyone leaving the island? Boo. What about the island just blowing up and everyone biting the dust at the same time? Also bad.
> 
> With this ending, we know where it all ultimately ends up. We watched the Losties meet. We watched them bond and grow together. We even watched some of them die. In the end, we watched them make their final journey together. It completes the arc.


Reminded me of Six Feet Under's ending.


----------



## 503Blunts

Well, The Wire's safe.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

David doesn't exist? That sucks.


----------



## atrac

MickeS said:


> Like what? I can't think of a whole lot of things in the island reality that still need explaining...


Just one, as an example.

"What is the island?"

"It's a magical/mysterious/unknown place" is the answer. That was already a given in earlier seasons. So I have no new information for them.

Personally, I want to know what "the magic box" is that Ben referred to that "whatever you want to be inside will appear" (paraphrased). The one that brought Locke's father to the island.

I know, I know. "It's a magic box." What else could I possibly want to know about it???


----------



## Peter000

JYoung said:


> I see that at the heart, Lost is Jack's journey from a man of science to a man of faith and how he had to call upon his faith at the end.


Pretty much this. Lost was Jack's story more than any others.

I'm not wild about the sideways alternate reality being an afterlife. But it pretty much makes sense the way it turned out, and I can live with it. Otherwise a perfect series finale.

The series as a whole? Well, it was first and foremost about the spiritual journey of the people who survived the 815 crash. They arrived to the island with demons either spiritual or physical or both, and ended up moving on with a modicum of peace. Some had to work it out after they died. Some, like Jack, worked it out through their Journey on the island.

The island mythos was a means to that journey. We just saw snatches of the island's long history. These were the parts that were important to tell the 815ers stories. For example, the statue's history just isn't important to tell Hurley's story. The origin of the food drops aren't important to James' getting revenge on the man that conned his parents and ruined his life.

In the end, the characters didn't know any more than we did. It didn't really matter to Jack what exactly the Island's light was or how it worked, just that it DID have to be protected, and the MIB was tied to it somehow, and the key to defeating him lie there.

That's not to say some more info about the island mythos wouldn't be fun and appreciated. But i don't feel a huge need to know where Jacob and MIB's mom came from (either one of them). Or any other of the big unanswered questions. They're just moot to the story that was told.

I feel part loss, part relief, part joy that this series has come to an end. It was an emotional show to watch, and often hard to see what the characters were going through. But I'm glad that it ended on it's own terms, and the forces behind the series got to tell the story they wanted to tell, and how they wanted to tell it, to an appreciative audience. It's not a series that was "phoned in." It was profoundly evident that great care was taken by everyone involved to make it the best it could possibly be. And as a fan, I really appreciate that.


----------



## Wil

atrac said:


> I know, I know. "It's a magic box." What else could I possibly want to know about it???


No. You totally underestimate the series. The Island is a Magic Place in which anything can happen. And, BTW, there is a Purgatory in which anything can happen. And, BTW, the world (outside the Island and Purgatory) is also a Magic Place in which anything can happen. Everybody who was wanted and available hugs at the End.


----------



## Peter000

atrac said:


> Personally, I want to know what "the magic box" is that Ben referred to that "whatever you want to be inside will appear" (paraphrased). The one that brought Locke's father to the island.
> 
> I know, I know. "It's a magic box." What else could I possibly want to know about it???


That particular question was answered by Ben. He said it was "Metaphorical." It wasn't really a "magic box." Obviously they brought Locke's father to the island on the sub.


----------



## gchance

Alright. I loved it. Worth every second.



sonnik said:


> There are people on the West Coast and in Alaska/Hawaii that may want to browse the thread while they are waiting for Kimmel to start.


I just finished reading the thread. 9 pages, and it's now 12:50am. I've been watching Kimmel, it's been 45 minutes. Holy crap. 

Anyway a couple thoughts, someone mentioned the ages of the actors, I think it showed most in the younger cast members. Both Emilie deRavin & Evangeline Lilly have aged (Emilie's face is a lot wider). I suppose it was more noticeable after watching the pilot yesterday.

I see the fact that many of the Losties aren't in the last scene as for some folks, that wasn't the best time of their lives.

I don't get why people completely ignore what Christian Shepherd said. He gave the most expository lines in the whole series, he explained it all to Jack.

Greg


----------



## spikedavis

Wow. They really resorted to some religious BS "afterlife" nonsense? What a letdown. 

I actually enjoyed most of the episode until the ending-but ultimatelyas a whole, the entire series "tentpoles" are ultimately meaningless. Desmonds flashes/Dharma/Walt. Everything that was MADE to be important through the mythology of the series is rendered moot and that to me is a betrayal to your audience. As other people said, thus ending is really only relevant to this final season and not the series as a whole.


----------



## Fahtrim

Johnny Dancing said:


> Yes. Jack came out of the jungle toward the beach after waking immediately after the crash and then laid down and died, that is how the story ends. In the pilot he comes out of the jungle thinking he is alive and starts saving dead people and that is how the story begins.
> 
> It was sad when they showed the real wreckage and there were no survivors.
> 
> The Island was a purgatory were the dead from many different crashes and wrecks over the years tried to figure out what the heck was going on. The light was what your supposed to go in when you die. They did not know they were dead and that is why they were so interested in the light and energy. That is all I can explain for now. Bedtime.
> 
> I'll miss Lost. Best network drama ever.


lol, did you even watch it or read the thread above you. So wrong. Please don't make it worse than it was, they didn't have a story arch until this last season imo.


----------



## gchance

Ah yes, forgot to comment on the wreckage.

The island is there. The wreckage is there. The survivors got off the island, they are not there. Yet the island & wreckage remain. Can't get much more straightforward than that.

Greg


----------



## Peter000

spikedavis said:


> Wow. They really resorted to some religious BS "afterlife" nonsense? What a letdown.
> 
> I actually enjoyed most of the episode until the ending-but ultimatelyas a whole, the entire series "tentpoles" are ultimately meaningless. Desmonds flashes/Dharma/Walt. Everything that was MADE to be important through the mythology of the series is rendered moot and that to me is a betrayal to your audience. As other people said, thus ending is really only relevant to this final season and not the series as a whole.


That's if you regard the series as a whole as a story about the island. It wasn't.

As mentioned numerous times it was a story about Jack and the other castaways. The Island stuff was only there to further their story, not the other way around.


----------



## spikedavis

Peter000 said:


> That's if you regard the series as a whole as a story about the island. It wasn't.
> 
> As mentioned numerous times it was a story about Jack and the other castaways. The Island stuff was only there to further their story, not the other way around.


That's called a excuse for lazy writing.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

I'm leaning toward not liking the ending, or the flash sideways, or season six as a whole, which is very difficult for me. Maybe I'm just tired and need to approach it with a fresh mind. I've been struggling with the ending for a few hours now, and I'm feeling worse and worse. Honestly, I feel something like grief, which is odd since it was meant to be a happy ending. Perhaps it's tied to losing the show. I don't really know. Where's the LOST survivors support group?


----------



## Wil

spikedavis said:


> Wow. They really resorted to some religious BS "afterlife" nonsense? What a letdown.


Have you read or attended a performance of "Our Town"? Not to put these guys on that level, but they _are_ very good. The artiface of an afterlife (and a Purgatory and even a Magic Island) are not what the author is talking about, but simply a dramatic device to establish a place from which to comment.

If there _is_ anything here beyond just a few clever people creating a very effective put-on, it begins and ends with Jack. Kimmel I think may turn out to have it kinda right (but again I don't really think there IS anything here).

Jack (in my hypothetical view of Lost as a legitimate piece of work), strung out by having lived a life and having had experiences that would have reduced Job to a quivering mass of jelly, has, at a point of extreme physical trauma, images and threads of imaginary events (a lot of them based on faces he has recently seen: fellow passengers) flash through his brain in an instant, in an effort to provide some meaningful resolution to his life. He succeeds.


----------



## spikedavis

I'm pasting this that another guy at AICN wrote-he sums up how I feel perfectly:

...the characters and not the plot. Over its length this was one of the most plot heavy shows ever made, with virtually every character beat used primarily to illustrate a plot point, but okay, I'll accept that.
But even if that was the case almost every character in the show was given short shrift in season six and most especially in the finale. In season six Sawyer was reduced to a cipher, Locke was no longer Locke, Jin and Sun were starved for screen time and Kate was essentially reduced to a one-note character, that note being to reunite Claire and Aaron. Two episodes were absolutely devoted to the "unimportant and incidental" plot, Ab and Sea, which didn't include the characters we have been following at all. Only Jack and Ben were allowed any significant character development in the season. And the finale ignored further character development almost completely, shuffling all of the remaining characters around like chess pieces except for Jack while the flash sideways played nothing but a victory lap clips package while making sure every couple and significant pairing had a re-meet cute that relied completely on replaying effective original moments from the show's run.

You know, I'll watch Lost again, there was some awful good stuff this last six years, but no, this was not good.


----------



## Roadblock

Graymalkin said:


> So basically, when I die, I'll have to live in a sideways reality until everybody important to me has died as well? And only then do we go into the light? Sheesh.


Well, your story probably doesn't include crash-landing on The Island, so no.



rlc1 said:


> Awful - just awful. Not a single question answered in this episode.
> 
> What exactly is the smoke monster?
> ...


What exactly is the smoke monster? Do you want molecular diagrams or something? Not a single question answered, really? Did you even watch the show? Keep on hatin.



zync said:


> I disagree here. If you go back to the first few seasons, which I'd admit was before the characters were developed, the island WAS the story. Everything that we loved about lost was wrapped up in the island's story. Then, over time, the characters became well developed and their stories took focus. But that doesn't mean that the island's story, or the need to tell it, went away.


C'mon, the first season was more about the characters than the island's story. Without these characters, people would not have cared about the island. I too was disappointed in a lot of where this last season went, but I thought this last episode was awesome. It was about finishing the story for our characters in an epic way, and I was satisfied. I didn't really agree with some minor things, like Sayid and Shannon together, but I can live with it.



Johnny Dancing said:


> Yes. Jack came out of the jungle toward the beach after waking immediately after the crash and then laid down and died, that is how the story ends. In the pilot he comes out of the jungle thinking he is alive and starts saving dead people and that is how the story begins.
> 
> It was sad when they showed the real wreckage and there were no survivors.
> 
> The Island was a purgatory were the dead from many different crashes and wrecks over the years tried to figure out what the heck was going on. The light was what your supposed to go in when you die. They did not know they were dead and that is why they were so interested in the light and energy. That is all I can explain for now. Bedtime.
> 
> I'll miss Lost. Best network drama ever.


Worst post of the thread, really. How embarrassing.



T-Wolves said:


> I loved the finale -- maybe the best 2.5 hours of TV I've ever seen. But then again *Lost *is my favorite show of all time (so far).
> 
> That said, I do have _some _disappointment about how much of the show ended up being irrelevant or misleading.
> 
> But frankly, after 6 years, that was the essence of *Lost *for me -- fantastic storytelling, great emotion, and lots of interesting mysteries, some of which were important, some of which were irrelevant. But the show always kept me coming back for more.
> 
> It was a great ride, and I'm glad I was around to see it. Supposedly the DVDs and Blu-Rays will have an additional 20 minutes of finale footage. I might as well order my copy now.... :up:


I agree completely, but you said it better than I could, so I'll just +1 you, thanks.


----------



## Polcamilla

I felt the ending was very similar to the ending of the Chronicles of Narnia.

Aside from that, was there ever a point to the Tailies except to reunite Rose and her husband?


----------



## SusieK

The whole Christian, Jesus, Shepherd, reference didn't really hit me until Kate repeated Christian Shepherd's name sarcastically to Desmond, while their car was parked in front of the church as the coffin was being delivered (and I heard it coming through her bystander point of view)... I can't believe it took me only 6 years to make that connection!?!

I also liked the fact Jack got 'speared' in the side, and sacrificed himself for the greater good... a definite Jesus reference.


----------



## Peter000

Polcamilla said:


> I felt the ending was very similar to the ending of the Chronicles of Narnia.
> 
> Aside from that, was there ever a point to the Tailies except to reunite Rose and her husband?


Libby was in the Tailie group as well. Who sparked Hugo's memories.

But really, I think that real life interfered with some of those stories. They wrote Eko out because the actor playing him hated the shooting conditions and wanted out. They wrote Ana Lucia out because she was getting drunk and arrested in her off time, and it was interfering with her work.

Those two might have had bigger roles in the show otherwise.


----------



## Wil

Polcamilla said:


> was there ever a point to the Tailies except to reunite Rose and her husband?


The tailies were also faces/life story fragments Jack encountered proximate to the crash. They, along with significant philosopher/author names from his reading over the years, needed to be worked into his final fantasy. We as viewers tried to find "Lost-author" logic. But Jack, as he invented new characters, simply applied names as seemed appropriate to _him_ in that instant.

What do we know about Jack? I think we can take the Pilot pre-crash, and his back-story incidents, at face value. He is a man of science. Cause & effect. He needs to fix things, to make them fit, to enforce resolution. All the raw material running through his brain at the point of trauma needed to be reconciled to make his life/death meaningful to him.

In this view (which I really don't believe) the authors' main regret coming out is they simply didn't know from the beginning all the specific actors that would turn out to be significant. Else they all would have been glimpsed as passengers or explicitly in Jack's back-stories (e.g. Desmond, who also suggested the "next life" theme and "seeing him again" I believe, and agin I think we can take this as truth). Though as I think on it, many characters did get inserted in Jack's backstories further in, didn't they. Maybe all of them; I don't think so, but an interesting exercise.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Polcamilla said:


> I felt the ending was very similar to the ending of the Chronicles of Narnia.


Yes, it does seem somewhat like that, as I remember it.


----------



## Delta13

I'm like several others - I need time to digest the last 15 minutes or so. Certainly it wasn't the train wreck some feared it might be, but I can't vote it the best finale show evar yet either. Visually, the show has no equals. Staging a shot, reminding you of previous sequences years ago, dynamic perspectives - all great. The writing ... not as pretty sometimes.

The funniest part for me was the beginning. There's a 2 hour retrospective going over everything that has happened on Lost, and immediately following that what starts the actual show? "Previously, on Lost ..."


----------



## rlc1

MickeS said:


> Seriously? Did you also come away from "The Phantom menace" upset that Lucas didn't delve more into exactly HOW the Midichlorians communicated with the Force? And why didn't he explain WHAT the Force is? And in "Raiders of the Lost ark", I can't believe there wasn't an explanation exactly of HOW God knew to kill Nazis and WHY it was enough to close your eyes to escape death?
> 
> As for the stuff about the characters, see my previous paragraph. If you didn't care about what happened to these characters, I can't figure out why you watched the show.


What I can't figure out is why people that like the ending are so angry at people that didn't.  I gave my explanations as to why I didn't like it. If you don't understand, so be it. I didn't like the ending; you did. People have different opinions - that's why we're on this forum, to read about everyone else's opinion. Don't belittle people because they don't agree with you.


----------



## Rinkdog

mrdazzo7 said:


> Are you guys serious? It didn't mean the whole show was fake/purgatory, it means the sideways stuff this year was... they all died at different times and lived in the sideways world until the last one finally passed, and then they all reemembered and could move on. It has absolutely nothing to do with the island being fake/purgatory/a dream/etc.


What do yo make of the last scene showing the plane crash and no sign of survivors? More muddles b.s. with no explanation because they don't have one. I am really irked. After I think about it for a week I may change my opinion but right now I just feel like they didn't explain and they intentionally mislead us. Why show the island sunk as the first scene of the season?


----------



## Wil

Rinkdog said:


> Why show the island sunk as the first scene of the season?


Trying as hard as I can, because in this branch of Jack's final fantasy (creating a Purgatory), the Island was not a factor, i.e. Jacob had never touched all those lives, and the Others had never visited off-island to cause bus accidents, etc. The major characters just played out their lives 'til they came to the same place. It's very neat, if intended, but admittedly, it's a bit of a stretch.

Personally, I kinda enjoyed the whole series on a "they're fracking with us" level and I never demanded any logic beyond that the authors were saying "hey, that would be cool; let's do that." And doing it well.


----------



## SeanC

Is there a post somewhere in this thread that breaks down what happened at the end, cuz I sure don't know.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Wow, 283 posts! I had to sleep on it before I said anything, and now you all are turning me into Smeek because no way can I keep up with all this!

I think the ending emotionally was profoundly satisfying, and intellectually was profoundly unsatisfying. All those moments of awakening were great, and really well-done. But in the end, the whole sidewaysverse seems like just a pretty flimsy excuse to have all those great moments of awakening. I couldn't even tell (and here I may be smeeking) if it was really a communal experience for the dead people (and how on Earth does that make any sense? Why would they go to that moment, a moment that never happened, a moment that the version of which that did happen many of them never participated in in the first place?); the way they presented it, it felt more like Jack's dying hallucination. The entire sidewaysverse was just Jack lying in the jungle fantasizing about what might have been and resolving his issues.

Still, a lot of truly powerful moments. I just wish they'd done more to earn them intellectually, instead of just emotionally. Yes, Lost was primarily about the characters, but that doesn't mean you can ignore the story completely, and I feel like with the sidewaysverse, that's exactly what they did.

Which is me harping on the negative. Still, one of the very best shows ever, with an ending that was almost but not quite worthy of it!


----------



## SeanC

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the ending emotionally was profoundly satisfying, and intellectually was profoundly unsatisfying. All those moments of awakening were great, and really well-done. But in the end, the whole sidewaysverse seems like just a pretty flimsy excuse to have all those great moments of awakening. I couldn't even tell (and here I may be smeeking) if it was really a communal experience for the dead people (and how on Earth does that make any sense? Why would they go to that moment, a moment that never happened, a moment that the version of which that did happen many of them never participated in in the first place?); the way they presented it, it felt more like Jack's dying hallucination. The entire sidewaysverse was just Jack lying in the jungle fantasizing about what might have been and resolving his issues.
> 
> Still, a lot of truly powerful moments. I just wish they'd done more to earn them intellectually, instead of just emotionally. Yes, Lost was primarily about the characters, but that doesn't mean you can ignore the story completely, and I feel like with the sidewaysverse, that's exactly what they did.
> 
> Which is me harping on the negative. Still, one of the very best shows ever, with an ending that was almost but not quite worthy of it!


Yeah, this!


----------



## SeanC

Ok, I guess this is the big question that I have at the moment; Where did life and the real universe end and the dream universe begin?


----------



## cheesesteak

So what happened on Craphole Island actually happened? The alt-Ocean's 11 plot was them all meeting after their various deaths and walking into the light together?

Minor nitpicks:
- How'd they get that big ass tree off of Linus? He was spry afterwards for having a tree fall on him.
- Kate was pretty athletic for being shot a couple of hours previously
- I thought it funny that Faraday performed with Driveshaft with no apparent practice.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

SeanC said:


> Ok, I guess this is the big question for me that I have at the moment; Where did life and the real universe end and the dream universe begin?


The sideways world is atemporal, so it doesn't really begin or end. It's just a place the characters met after death to help each other move on. Everything on the island, and all the flashbacks and flashforwards were real.


----------



## Turtleboy

SeanC said:


> Ok, I guess this is the big question that I have at the moment; Where did life and the real universe end and the dream universe begin?


The universe didn't end. When each person died, they became part of the flash sideways, where time has no meaning, so they can all start it at the same time.

Everything not on the flash sideways was real.


----------



## SeanC

But.... but.... there were people who weren't dead who were in the FSW? So if you weren't dead you existed in both?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

SeanC said:


> But.... but.... there were people who weren't dead who were in the FSW? So if you weren't dead you existed in both?


You only went there when you died, whenever that was. It existed outside of time.

Unless it was just Jack's dying fantasy.


----------



## Cearbhaill

_At this point _I feel exactly as I did after seeing the ending of 'Atonement'.... screwed over by being manipulated into becoming emotionally invested in something that never happened.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Cearbhaill said:


> _At this point _I feel exactly as I did after seeing the ending of 'Atonement'.... screwed over by being manipulated into becoming emotionally invested in something that never happened.


It all happened.


----------



## SeanC

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You only went there when you died, whenever that was. It existed outside of time.


So why was Hurley there?



> Unless it was just Jack's dying fantasy.


Was it?


----------



## cheesesteak

I thought the finale was two hours. I was thinking they'd better wrap this sucker up quick at about the 1:50 mark.

I wish I hadn't watched it live. Commercial breaks seemingly every 10 minutes took me out of the story sometimes.

I liked most things. Didn't like some things. No point in being pissed at the things that weren't explained or this season's mythology. I enjoyed the vast majority of Lost.


----------



## Turtleboy

SeanC said:


> But.... but.... there were people who weren't dead who were in the FSW? So if you weren't dead you existed in both?


They _were_ dead. The same way your great great great great grandchildren are dead. Because everyone dies sometime. It's just that time has no meaning there.

Weren't you listening to Christian?


----------



## cheesesteak

When Jack walked into the church, there was a back view of an angel statue. I immediately thought of Doctor Who's Weeping Angels and thought "Wouldn't it be cool if..."


----------



## SeanC

Turtleboy said:


> They _were_ dead. The same way your great great great great grandchildren are dead. Because everyone dies sometime. It's just that time has no meaning there.


Dead from when? From what? So they were all dead from whenever, there was no plane ride, and these people just met in a dream someplace?



> Weren't you listening to Christian?


Yeah, just the one time last night, right before I had to go to bed, I'll watch it again when I get home.


----------



## Turtleboy

SeanC said:


> Dead from when? From what? So they were all dead from whenever, there was no plane ride, and these people just met in a dream someplace?
> 
> Yeah, just the one time last night, right before I had to go to bed, I'll watch it again when I get home.


Each person died at different times. Some before Jack, some long after. Every single thing not in the flash sideways happened, and everything in the flash sideways was after each individual person died at different times.

How many times do we have to say this?


----------



## SeanC

Turtleboy said:


> How many times do we have to say this?


If that's the answer then I just don't get it. I just read the wiki entry for the episode and that didn't help either.

If I just forget about the FSW, things make a bit more sense, but the FSW just confuses the hell out of me. I don't understand why living people are in the FSW when that is supposed to be some afterlife thing. Why are living people there?


----------



## Turtleboy

Interesting that Eloise Widmore knew exactly what was going on. She got what she wanted to -- to have a different relationship with her son, who wasn't a scientist but a musician; and who was never killed by her on the Island.

She didn't want to move on, as she liked that. More importantly, she didn't want her son to move on either.


----------



## Vendikarr

Gai-jin said:


> And why were Michael and his son not in the alternate reality?


Didn't Michael's ghost tell Hugo that he couldn't move on and was stuck on the island? That would explain why he wasn't there. And Walt wasn' there because the island wasn't one of the biggest parts of his life.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

SeanC said:


> If I just forget about the FSW, things make a bit more sense, but the FSW just confuses the hell out of me. I don't understand why living people are in the FSW when that is supposed to be some afterlife thing. Why are living people there?


The flash sideways is a kind of limbo afterlife where the Losties meet in order to help each other "move on". Since it's outside of time, it doesn't matter when each person died, even if they died hundreds of years apart, they all experience it at the same time. But, they're all dead.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Vendikarr said:


> Didn't Michael's ghost tell Hugo that he couldn't move on and was stuck on the island? That would explain why he wasn't there. And Walt wasn' there because the island wasn't one of the biggest parts of his life.


I like to think that Hurley and Ben together might find a way to help the whispers move on. At least, those who choose to let go. Perhaps with the help of someone special, like Walt. It was not even so much as implied that that would be the case, but it's what I like to think.


----------



## Turtleboy

SeanC said:


> If that's the answer then I just don't get it. I just read the wiki entry for the episode and that didn't help either.
> 
> If I just forget about the FSW, things make a bit more sense, but the FSW just confuses the hell out of me. I don't understand why living people are in the FSW when that is supposed to be some afterlife thing. Why are living people there?


*THEY AREN'T LIVING!!!!*

They did 5, 10, 30 or maybe in Hurley's case 1,000 years later.

Time has not meaning there. They all died at different times, but in that place, went back to the reset point.

And once they figured out where they were and what happened, they had memories of their *entire life.*

Kate says to Jack, "I missed you so much." She may have lived for another 50 years.

Hurley says to Ben, "You were a great #2," and he wasn't calling him a piece of sh-t. Ben says to Hurley, "You were a great #1." They both remembered their time protecting the Island.

So again. Each person -- dead. Each person's time of death -- varies.

I don't know what else to say.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Turtleboy said:


> Interesting that Eloise Widmore knew exactly what was going on. She got what she wanted to -- to have a different relationship with her son, who wasn't a scientist but a musician; and who was never killed by her on the Island.
> 
> She didn't want to move on, as she liked that. More importantly, she didn't want her son to move on either.


Daniel was very close to being awake. I think Charlotte would finish that job. Then Eloise will have to make a choice. I think they'll convince her to let go.

I think Ben stayed behind to help Danielle and Alex along.


----------



## Family

I'm in the minority, but I think the ending was more like that Star Trek episode where Picard lived an entire life in seconds. The story was about Jack and his consciousness, but all the Losties had their own predeath experience that together created the society on the island. Each worked out his/her issues... a few examples:

1) Jack - man of science vs man of faith as discussed.
2) I loved how Kate was the one who killed MIB. It resolved her issue with killing her step father.
3) Locke let go.

Jack's change of clothes was irrelevant... it symbolized his change throughout this experience. What was real or what wasn't is open to interpretation, but that crash scene at the end was meant to tell us there were not survivors.


----------



## speedcouch

rlc1 said:


> The only thing this ending did is make me feel a little better about how badly Battlestar Galactica ended - because at least it wasn't as bad as this.


I said the exact thing to my husband after the show ended last night!

I think the writers really copped out, but the way this season was going I knew they'd never be able to wrap it up to my satisfaction.

Cheryl


----------



## nyny523

I think Ben stayed out of the church because the people inside were ready to "move on" and the implication was they were going to heaven.

I'm not sure Ben ever made it to heaven.

I loved the finale. I loved the reunions and the emotion. The best part of the series for me was always the characters - learning about their pasts, their futures and their interactions on the island.

The rest of the stuff - for me - ranged from cool to confusing to downright uninteresting. The people were interesting. Their stories were interesting. What they meant to each other was interesting. 

And for those people who felt unsatisfied that all their questions had not been answered - if you have ever lost someone you cared about, you realize that there are always more questions than answers after they are gone. That is the nature of life and death. There are always so many answers you will never, ever get. Because the person is Lost. I think THAT is what the series was really about in the end...


----------



## betts4

Fool Me Twice said:


> Where's the LOST survivors support group?


Sign me up. 



SusieK said:


> I also liked the fact Jack got 'speared' in the side, and sacrificed himself for the greater good... a definite Jesus reference.


I thought of that when it happened and then thought of the 'last supper' LOST repainting that has been around.



Turtleboy said:


> She didn't want to move on, as she liked that. More importantly, she didn't want her son to move on either.


She and Ben both made that decision. Question, didn't Ben fear triggering the recall of memories when he touched Alex? She died on the island.

I watched the last 1/2 hour again this morning and am still moved by it. I don't really need to figure it all out. Maybe that's why I can handle it. The characters I have come to know and love for 6 years are gone.

Sayid and Shannon makes sense - Sayid was in love with Nadia but she moved on to someone else. He had this sort of faraway love and never wanted to give her up. Once he reunited with Shannon he remembered what he had found with her on the island. Love from someone that loved him back.

I was sad about Helen not being there for Locke and no one was there for Boone. It would have been amusing to see Vincent there. All in all, I was satisfied.


----------



## Carlucci

For those wondering why Jack had a son in the alt-timeline, couldn't it be his way of dealing with his bad relationship with his own father? What better way to reconcile your issues with your dead father than to experience fatherhood yourself, to make the same mistakes your own father made, to have to opportunity to become aware of those mistakes, and then to take positive steps to heal your relationship. This is exactly what Jack did. His son was a means of redemption. 

I figured out the alt-timeline wasn't going to be real the moment that Locke said "You don't have a son, Jack." 

I loved this show, and the ending.


----------



## betts4

nyny523 said:


> I loved the finale. I loved the reunions and the emotion. The best part of the series for me was always the characters - learning about their pasts, their futures and their interactions on the island.
> 
> The rest of the stuff - for me - ranged from cool to confusing to downright uninteresting. The people were interesting. Their stories were interesting. What they meant to each other was interesting.
> 
> And for those people who felt unsatisfied that all their questions had not been answered - if you have ever lost someone you cared about, you realize that there are always more questions than answers after they are gone. That is the nature of life and death. There are always so many answers you will never, ever get. Because the person is Lost. I think THAT is what the series was really about in the end...


Great post!


----------



## Turtleboy

I think an interesting question is which of the people who populated the flash sideways were there for real -- dead people who created the place to find each other and need to let go, and which were not really there?

Jack's son David was not really there.

But what about Charles Widmore? Was that really him, or just created by Desmond and Penny and Eloise?

Cindy the flight attendant?


----------



## mmilton80

The ending was not what I was looking for. I wanted answers to all of my lingering questions. What is MIB's name? How did CJ end up on the island to begin with? After watching the ending, I felt like I had been asking for the answer to the Ultimate Question, and the answer I got was 42.

After much reflection (and a bit of sleep), I feel that the finale gave me what I needed. A sense of reassurance. We saw these broken individuals end up on this island to learn that they needed each other. I feel that it was a deeply satisfying ending.


----------



## wprager

I have to say that I am very satisfied. I was wondering how they would tie it up and, of course, I didn't expect all the questions to be answered, and all mysteries to be solved. There are probably a few that I wouldn't mind being resolved, but not enough so to gripe about it. Ultimately, it does not matter.

In a short while I'll start re-watching this with my soon-to-be 14 year old. While I think he'll really enjoy the ride, I am saddened to think that he will be really disappointed by the ending.

OK, looking back at that "Call Sheet" for the next-to-last day of shooting that was spoiled a couple of weeks ago, it looks legit in hindsight (I'd been wondering if it was a fake or a red herring planted by the producers). One of the scene descriptions is interesting. I'll spoilerize it since this was *not* in the show (although it was certainly depicted in the show):



Spoiler



INT CAVERN/STEAM
Jack finds Desmond unconscious; puts rock over hole. [this makes it sound legit]

INT CAVERN/WATER
Jack in Hell; light returns; water starts to trickle.



So is that what they were going for with the red light?


----------



## rlc1

Roadblock said:


> What exactly is the smoke monster? Do you want molecular diagrams or something? Not a single question answered, really? Did you even watch the show? Keep on hatin.


What's your problem, man? Is it too much to ask for a little bit of explanation? I watched the show - did you? Do you think the major questions were answered in the finale? I didn't - so let's hear your response. A forum is an exchange of ideas. Do you have any ideas of your own besides implying that I'm stupid because I didn't find the answers I was seeking? Something intelligent please, not just another post that basically says that I'm an a-hole because I disagree with you. I mean, gimme a break...it seems like the only hating going on here is the hatred some people have for those of us that didn't like the finale.


----------



## MikeMar

jdfs said:


> A lot of filler in this episode. I have to agree it seems like they made some of this up as it went along or at some point in the middle when they planned the number of episodes left. No way the original story arc had this ending. Too much emphasis was made in the first few seasons on things not nearly so important in the end, e.g.:
> 1) Walt
> 2) Darma
> 3) Libby
> 4) *Pregnancy issues on the island
> to name a few.*


I am probably BEYOND Smeeking, and smeeking from other threads, but about the pregnancy thing

Isn't it simply just this
You can't conceive and have kids on the island because Jacob or whoever has to BRING the candidates, or the next in line from OUTSIDE the island and NOT conceived and born on the island.


----------



## Turtleboy

Listening to the producers' podcasts, they talked about two things from other movies that they hated and wanted to avoid.

1) Midichlorians 
2) The Matrix Revolutions -- the scene where the architect explains everything.

Both were lame.


----------



## nyny523

rlc1 said:


> What's your problem, man? Is it too much to ask for a little bit of explanation? Let's hear your answer about what the smoke monster really was. No molecular diagrams needed. Just a basic, good storyline that poses problems and mysteries, and then in the end, answers those with some degree of satisfaction for the viewers. Jeez, I mean, gimme a break...it seems like the only hating going on here is the hatred some people have for those of use that didn't like the finale.


The smoke monster was what the Man in Black turned into after he went into the cave.

That's what it was. That is the character. You can accept it or not - that is your choice.

It is a story. A story does not always have explainations or answers. It's a tale. Either you are on-board to accept what the story tells you, or you aren't.

In a way, to me, the people who expected iron-clad answers to all the questions posed are like the Jack's "man of science" character. Not everything in a story can be explained. Some things just ARE. You believe or you don't. Totally your choice. But just because all of your questions weren't answered, doesn't mean it wasn't a good story...


----------



## Family

You only need an explanation of the Smoke Monster and other Island occurances if you believe that everything which happened was not a collective predeath experience. If the island was a predeath experience within each individual's conscious then the smoke monster in its quest to get off the island represented going back to what was before the flight.. If the smoke monster won... Jack wouldn't have faith, Kate wouldn't have resolved her stepfather's murder, Locke wouldn't have let go, Sawyer would have remained a con man and so on.


----------



## Bernie

Turtleboy said:


> *THEY AREN'T LIVING!!!!*
> 
> They did 5, 10, 30 or maybe in Hurley's case 1,000 years later.
> 
> Time has not meaning there. They all died at different times, but in that place, went back to the reset point.
> 
> And once they figured out where they were and what happened, they had memories of their *entire life.*
> 
> Kate says to Jack, "I missed you so much." She may have lived for another 50 years.
> 
> Hurley says to Ben, "You were a great #2," and he wasn't calling him a piece of sh-t. Ben says to Hurley, "You were a great #1." They both remembered their time protecting the Island.
> 
> So again. Each person -- dead. Each person's time of death -- varies.
> 
> I don't know what else to say.


Yes, yes, yes.....excellent summation.


----------



## wprager

Comparing this to the BSG ending (which I, upon reflection, I do not hate, but did not like, either):

In BSG they "answered" too many questions, which made the finale nearly impossible to write to a satisfactory conclusion. Too many things just did not fit. The writers had painted themselves into a corner.

What Lost did, in comparison, is leave a lot (A LOT) of the mysteries unresolved. And by doing so, then reduced the scope of those mysteries to secondary, insignificant (in the long run) side stories. The ending then could proceed without the burden of having to "fit" all the previously resolved mysteries.


----------



## Peter000

rlc1 said:


> What's your problem, man? Is it too much to ask for a little bit of explanation? Let's hear your answer about what the smoke monster really was.


They answered that. The smoke monster was a pissed-off MIB, post falling into a pool of super-electromagnetic Island energy. The two interacted in such a way that the Smoke monster was created.


----------



## DavidTigerFan

Why was Aaron so important to the others? Because he was the first child born on the island? Why would they kidnap Claire before he was born?


----------



## TheDewAddict

I almost didn't read this thread, I figured everyone would be b*tching about the lack of answers in the finale, but I'm glad I read it to see that most people felt the same way I did: satisfied. When I think of all the hours that Lost has entertained me, not only in watching the episodes but in reading the recaps and theories, and following these threads, I'm grateful for the experience of watching it.

I loved the Charlie/Claire reunion, and was happy to see Hurley become the new guardian, and Ben the new #2. The ending confused me for a bit, but it makes sense now. Farewell Lost, I'll miss you.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

MikeMar said:


> Isn't it simply just this
> You can't conceive and have kids on the island because Jacob or whoever has to BRING the candidates, or the next in line from OUTSIDE the island and NOT conceived and born on the island.


No, pregnancy was normal until the Incident. Apparently, the electro-magnetic energy that was released during the Incident screwed things up for pregnant women.


----------



## Turtleboy

This is the way I see the progression of the show.

Imagine you had to drive from New York to Los Angeles. But, you have a year to do it. You can take any route you want, stop as much as you want, do what you want, but in one year, you have to be in L.A.

That's how I see the show. The writers knew where they started, knew where they had to end up, but made up most of it as they went along on the way.


----------



## Peter000

DavidTigerFan said:


> Why was Aaron so important to the others? Because he was the first child born on the island? Why would they kidnap Claire before he was born?


They kidnapped Clair to give her medicines to help her carry Aaron to term. Because all of the other women who conceived on the island miscarried, and subsequently died. (I think that was revealed by Juliet at one point).

I'm guessing they thought that any baby born on the island would be "special" in some way due to the island's unique properties. They really never spelled out why they wanted Aaron though, AFAIK.


----------



## rlc1

nyny523 said:


> The smoke monster was what the Man in Black turned into after he went into the cave.
> 
> That's what it was. That is the character. You can accept it or not - that is your choice.
> 
> It is a story. A story does not always have explainations or answers. It's a tale. Either you are on-board to accept what the story tells you, or you aren't.
> 
> In a way, to me, the people who expected iron-clad answers to all the questions posed are like the Jack's "man of science" character. Not everything in a story can be explained. Some things just ARE. You believe or you don't. Totally your choice. But just because all of your questions weren't answered, doesn't mean it wasn't a good story...


Thank you for posting a reasoned response - unlike some others here who choose to insult others that don't agree with them. However, I disagree with the statement that when all your questions aren't answered, it's still a good story. Okay, maybe it would be ok if they didn't answer absolutely everything. But when the main part of the story becomes the battle between Jacob and the Man In Black, good writers should at least have some explanation for that part of the story. To say that a story doesn't always have explanations or answers seems like a cop-out. A good story _does_ have some answers at the end.

As for the Man In Black, I would have liked to have found out exactly what would have happened to everyone if he had escaped from the island. Supposedly it would have been very bad for the world (everyone would have died?) if he escaped. And for a while, MIB's tactic was to kill all of the candidates so he could escape the island. So for a while I thought, well, he's some creature filled with evil and special powers (smoke monster and all that), and if he escapes he'll wreak havoc on the world. But after he turned off the light on the island, he was clearly just a regular person because he could be hurt and killed, just like a regular person. So what kind of bad thing would have happened if he escaped? Just sayin'....


----------



## Fool Me Twice

If anyone hears what extra story bits are going to be on the DVD, please spoil me.


----------



## Alfer

Wow...what a wild ride that was!

So many pages on his thread already!

Ok so one quick question....was there supposed to be meaning to the end credits showing the deserted island showing just plane wreckage, or was it just a simple.."this is where it all began" time montage(sp)??


----------



## rlc1

Peter000 said:


> They answered that. The smoke monster was a pissed-off MIB, post falling into a pool of super-electromagnetic Island energy. The two interacted in such a way that the Smoke monster was created.


OK, not a bad explanation. So why was it important to keep him trapped on the island? Because in the end they made it all about protecting the island. Jacob used the metaphor of the wine in the bottle being evil, and the cork being the island, which kept that evil bottled up. I know I'm repeating what I just said above, but, I just would have liked to have found out what might have happened had MIB escaped the island. In his final form as a regular-guy-who-can-be-killed-by-a-bullet, I just don't see how he could have done any real harm.


----------



## Turtleboy

Alfer said:


> or was it just a simple.."this is where it all began" time montage(sp)??


I think just it was just that.


----------



## Turtleboy

I don't remember. Was Richard at the final scene at the end, and did he ever appear in the Flash sideways?

I think he may still be immortal. He started to age when the stopper was out of the hole, but I wonder if he continues to age afterward? Or does he need to be on the Island to be immortal? He has left the Island before.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

rlc1 said:


> As for the Man In Black, I would have liked to have found out exactly what would have happened to everyone if he had escaped from the island. Supposedly it would have been very bad for the world (everyone would have died?) if he escaped. And for a while, MIB's tactic was to kill all of the candidates so he could escape the island. So for a while I thought, well, he's some creature filled with evil and special powers (smoke monster and all that), and if he escapes he'll wreak havoc on the world. But after he turned off the light on the island, he was clearly just a regular person because he could be hurt and killed, just like a regular person. So what kind of bad thing would have happened if he escaped? Just sayin'....


If the light in the center of the island goes out, everyone dies. So, even though MIB was made mortal and powerless, it all ends badly anyway.


----------



## ronsch

Wil said:


> Three of your last five posts constitute about the best writing I have seen about the series. You were a good audience.


:up::up:

Mostman has one of the best grasps of what the whole thing was about.

It boggles the mind to see so many hung up on not finding out the "mysteries of the island". As the writers stated in the clip show this was intended to be a character study. Those who say the first five seasons didn't matter seem to have forgotten all the flashback stories that developed the characters histories which determined how they related to each other. The "magic" island was a way to throw all these people together and give them a chance to "fix" their flaws.


----------



## GDG76

Peter000 said:


> They kidnapped Clair to give her medicines to help her carry Aaron to term. Because all of the other women who conceived on the island miscarried, and subsequently died. (I think that was revealed by Juliet at one point).


Claire didn't conceive on the island..

I have been pissed all season because most of the Dharma plotlines didn't matter this year.. but then I realized that they really never mattered at all. Kind of like the people sitting in the hatch sending things out the tube. They thought they were important, but really weren't..

And I'm fine with it.. the season finale was excellent and once I realized the mysteries I cared about didn't really matter, it was much more enjoyable.


----------



## orangeboy

A 2 1/2 hour clip show? Really?!

But seriously, great show, great season, great series.


----------



## Blackssr

unicorngoddess said:


> So why did Jack have a son with Juliet in the sideways? What was the point of that?
> 
> I don't like how they made the series finale all about the stuff that happened this season. It's like the previous 5 seasons didn't even matter.


I thought for a while the teenage boy was Arron. I guess I was wrong.


----------



## jschuur

So Charles Widmore... what was his deal?

He wanted to harness the 'power' of the light on the island? That's what drew people to the island over and over again (for all we known, even before Jacob & MIB, since their adopted mother was already a caretaker of it 150 years ago).

Was that Widmore's plan? Was he 'evil'? Or was he truly trying to help the others?


----------



## Peter000

rlc1 said:


> As for the Man In Black, I would have liked to have found out exactly what would have happened to everyone if he had escaped from the island. Supposedly it would have been very bad for the world (everyone would have died?) if he escaped. And for a while, MIB's tactic was to kill all of the candidates so he could escape the island. So for a while I thought, well, he's some creature filled with evil and special powers (smoke monster and all that), and if he escapes he'll wreak havoc on the world. But after he turned off the light on the island, he was clearly just a regular person because he could be hurt and killed, just like a regular person. So what kind of bad thing would have happened if he escaped? Just sayin'....


The people on the island didn't know that by uncorking the power that the MIB would become "normal." They only found that out by trying it. The MIB didn't even know that. And I'm assuming had the MIB not been killed and the power re-corked, he would have gained his powers back.

So based on what they (Jack and the others) had seen Smokey do, and Jacob's warning, they were afraid of letting a super-powered serial killer who can't be killed loose on the world. Even if he had lost his powers, he's a totally malevolent being who doesn't care a bit about killing others to achieve what he wants to achieve.


----------



## markp99

mqpickles said:


> 3. Stained glass window in the church was interesting. A cross, crescent, Start of David, yin/yang, ... and a donkey wheel.


Probably the 8-spoked dharma wheel (Tibet):


----------



## Turtleboy

jschuur said:


> So Charles Widmore... what was his deal?
> 
> He wanted to harness the 'power' of the light on the island? That's what drew people to the island over and over again (for all we known, even before Jacob & MIB, since their adopted mother was already a caretaker of it 150 years ago).
> 
> Was that Widmore's plan? Was he 'evil'? Or was he truly trying to help the others?


Not 150 years. Try 2,000 years.


----------



## Anubys

Turtleboy said:


> Hurley says to Ben, "You were a great #2," and he wasn't calling him a piece of sh-t. Ben says to Hurley, "You were a great #1." They both remembered their time protecting the Island.


I wish the actors had said their lines a little better/clearer...at the time, I THOUGHT Hugo said "were" but could not be sure that it was "are"...I listened to it about 5 times and could not tell; which makes a huge difference, of course, in understanding what was going on...


----------



## Peter000

GDG76 said:


> Claire didn't conceive on the island..


Right, I know that. I see the way I wrote that implied she had. But my point still stands... the others were still afraid of her miscarrying because of all of the other birthing failures on the Island, so they kidnapped her to make sure she got the meds to help her carry to term.


----------



## betts4

ronsch said:


> It boggles the mind to see so many hung up on not finding out the "mysteries of the island". As the writers stated in the clip show this was intended to be a character study. Those who say the first five seasons didn't matter seem to have forgotten all the flashback stories that developed the characters histories which determined how they related to each other. The "magic" island was a way to throw all these people together and give them a chance to "fix" their flaws.


I agree, the characters were the important part of the story, and after reading a bunch of the comments here, I started thinking about it a story told while sitting around the campfire or a bedtime story told one night at a time for 1001 nights. Made up and things tossed in for fun, but the characters and how they came to love and interact and respect and hate each other was gave the story strength.


----------



## mwhip

Wow 346 posts since last night!! I don't have much to say other than the ending was OK and since it was not "linear" I am a little confused. 

Jack was not the last to die just the last to "come around" on them being in purgatory? So they needed Desmond "the constant" and Hurley to get everyone to "see" since everyone was dead now and they could move on? I just really want to know who was the last to die. Did Desmond who came back to the Island with Widmore and thrown into the well know that there was a sideways world waiting to be resolved?


----------



## Roommate

Put me down in the "loved it" camp.

One aspect of the alt-timeline not being a "real" timeline that makes me happy, is it means "Whatever happened, happened" was true all along. I loved that aspect of the show during season 5 (yay! an internally consistent time travel story!) and was slightly disappointed when it seemed the plan to blow the bomb and reset the timeline "worked' (sort of). Now, finding out that it truly didn't work at all, and Faraday was right all along (at least until he started to doubt his own theory), is a personally satisfying reveal, completely aside from the greater limbo/purgatory aspects of it all. Which I also loved.

Bravo, Carlton and Damon. This could go down as my favorite show ever.


----------



## Carlucci

Alfer said:


> Ok so one quick question....was there supposed to be meaning to the end credits showing the deserted island showing just plane wreckage, or was it just a simple.."this is where it all began" time montage(sp)??


Some are speculating that the showing of the wreckage is proof-positive that they all died upon the initial crash. *This is wrong.* I clearly saw evidence of lean-to's, tarps, and other makeshift constructs adjacent to the plain wreckage.


----------



## wprager

When Det. Ford first comes to Sun's room in the hospital (so, no-one is complaining that a seemingly indigent GSW who doesn't speak English gets put in a private room?  ) and says "I'm sorry..." did anyone else think he intentionally make it sound like "I'm Sawyer ..."?


----------



## rlc1

mwhip said:


> I just really want to know who was the last to die.


I don't think it's important to know who was the last to die, because I think the implication was that most of the characters lived out their natural lives and died presumably many years later.


----------



## Anubys

jschuur said:


> So Charles Widmore... what was his deal?
> 
> He wanted to harness the 'power' of the light on the island? That's what drew people to the island over and over again (for all we known, even before Jacob & MIB, since their adopted mother was already a caretaker of it 150 years ago).
> 
> Was that Widmore's plan? Was he 'evil'? Or was he truly trying to help the others?


I always thought his deal was the quest for the fountain of youth...both to himself and to increase his fortune (as in sell access to it)...but that's just an assumption on my part, I don't have any evidence...


----------



## latrobe7

I'll have to catch up on this thread later... overall I was satisfied with the finale, I was most moved by the reunions before the ending.

The only thing I really had a problem with (and it's bugged me all season), is the idea that they'd be able to fly the plane off the island. But the good far outweighed the bad.


----------



## cheesesteak

nyny523 said:


> I'm not sure Ben ever made it to heaven.


I think Ben was afraid God would punch him in the face 4 or 5 times like everybody else on the show.


----------



## betts4

cheesesteak said:


> I think Ben was afraid God would punch him in the face 4 or 5 times like everybody else on the show.


This made me laugh out loud. Thanks! :up:


----------



## wouldworker

dtle said:


> My biggest unanswered peeve:
> 
> 1)Why and how were there still food drops by Dharma?


To keep Hurley fat. It's as simple as that. The writers realized the same thing that everyone else did in the early episodes - the guy who plays Hurley is fat and he's not going to get thinner, so they needed to explain how he could stay fat living on the island. The solution was to drop jars of peanut butter on the island. So they asked themselves why someone would be dropping peanut butter on the island and they made up the Dharma Initiative.

I'm convinced that the entire series was written using this method. Inadvertently dig a hole and invent a plot device to fill it.


----------



## markz

mwhip said:


> Wow 346 posts since last night!! I don't have much to say other than the ending was OK and since it was not "linear" I am a little confused.
> 
> Jack was not the last to die just the last to "come around" on them being in purgatory? So they needed Desmond "the constant" and Hurley to get everyone to "see" since everyone was dead now and they could move on? I just really want to know who was the last to die. Did Desmond who came back to the Island with Widmore and thrown into the well know that there was a sideways world waiting to be resolved?


I am assuming that Hurley (and maybe Ben) was the last to die. Since he drank the water and became like Jack/Jacob/"Mother" and whoever else protected the island before that, I am assuming he ceased to age and could have lived hundreds of years before finding his replacement and meeting up with everyone else at the church. I assume everyone else lived a normal life-span since they didn't drink the water to become the island's protector.


----------



## Steveknj

zync said:


> I disagree here. If you go back to the first few seasons, which I'd admit was before the characters were developed, the island WAS the story. Everything that we loved about lost was wrapped up in the island's story. Then, over time, the characters became well developed and their stories took focus. But that doesn't mean that the island's story, or the need to tell it, went away.
> 
> The writers spent most of this season creating, and then explaining, a new story which was did little to advance the story from the first 5 seasons. This was my disappointment - so much time was spent on this new story that could have been spent on answering the original story, that when these questions remained unanswered one feels cheated.
> 
> So in short, the feeling of fulfillment I have comes from the answering of this season's side story. :up: The feeling of disappointment comes from the failure to answer the story of the first 5 seasons. :down::down::down:


Without reading the ton of messages in this thread yet, I like the ending but I kind of agree with your last point (but not that the show was about the island, it was about the people). I never liked the Jacob/MiB story and I felt they could have come to the same ending sticking with the original battles. Others vs. Losties, Dharma vs. Others, and worked toward them finding the light and explaining the mysteries that way. But they didn't and that's ok.

So, did we ever find out EXACTLY who Whidmore was? Was he a candidate that Ben kicked off the island? And Dharma, I guess they just discovered the island somehow (Whidmore again?) and wanted to harness it's powers. I believe the bomb went off, threw them to the current future. I think when people died, like Jack, it's when discovered their past in purgatory. It's why Jack didn't get it until the end.

Other thoughts:

Anyone else feel the final battle between Jack and Locke had a Obi-Wan vs. Anikan Skywalker feel to it?

So the folks who didn't come, they were still alive? I thought one of the theories is they would not all come together until all of them died.

Michael/Walt....I just think there was a contract issue and that's why they weren't part of the ending. I sorta remember they didn't leave on good terms.


----------



## wombat94

First Post from a lurker...

Hi all... I've been reading the TC boards and the Lost threads since the beginning, I just don't appear to have ever posted re: Lost before (looking at my posts - I can't really believe it, but that's what I see).

I went to sleep last night after JKL not sure what I felt about the finale, but when I woke up, JK's theory really brought me to my own underastanding.

I have read some of this thread, but not all, but here is my understanding of what went on in these 6 seasons.

1. Oceanic 815 really did crash on the Island... all of the on-island, and 3 years of off-island stuff really did happen. Jack really did take over from Jacob, and with Desmond's (and Kate's) help he did defeat Smokey and put the plug back in to save the island. All of that was real.

2. This season's flash sideways was taking place in some sort of limbo that Jack inhabited until he was ready to move on to his place in the afterlife. BUT what we are seeing in the flash sideways is Jack's limbo. Just as there is no real concept of time in the FSW, there's no one reality in the FSW - it is what each of them makes of it.

3. I believe that most of the other losties we see in the Flash sideways have already moved on in their own realities... some probably did so very quickly and easily in their lives (Sun and Jin I believe probably moved on together very easily since they were reunited at their deaths and were together). But others may have been stuck for a long time in their own limbo after their death.

4. Desmond is the "Constant" and he still retains a certain ability to transcend space/time throughout all of this. Whatever Desmond is, it is beyond the rest of the people. But at the end of the real island timeline that we've seen, Desmond is going to live, and Hurley/Ben send him back home to be with Penny/little Charlie. He lives the rest of his natural life out and then once in the afterlife still has a role as a catalyst... helping to facilitate the moving on by other people once they are ready.

5. I think that the "remembering" each of our familiar people experiences is their eternal "soul", or "essence" for lack of a better term, being brought fully conscious into Jack's limbo - because it is necessary for Jack to deal with his own experience in order to move on and through Desmond's actions, they are made aware that Jack is approaching the time when he will be ready - they are there to help him once he is ready.

6. I think David doesn't really exist and never did exist. He's a construct of Jack's mind - a way for Jack to work through the issues with his father that he never could work through in life. The interactions we saw between Jack and David this season were critical to Jack finally being able to come to terms with his own feelings about his relationship with his father - and lay them to rest. At that point, Jack was ready to move on from his limbo.

7. We don't know how long this could have taken Jack in terms of earthly timeline - it may have been a year, 10 years or a thousand years. As implied by the Hurley/Ben interaction outside of the church it was at least quite a while since Hugo was a good leader in the past tense. Obviously from Kate's reaction, it has taken quite a while for Jack to be ready.

8. This is Jack's moving on experience... but in some way it is a reality that is still shared. Once Ben was brought into this reality, he could choose to stay for a while there - in order to really get to know Danielle and spend time with Alex. Similarly, Eloise and Daniel can stay there (along with Charlotte) - Daniel may not be ready to move on until something else happens.

So that's the big mythology related things and to me, it sums up for me the whole series in an emotionally satisfying way. From an intellectual standpoint, there are parts of it that won't ever work but it is fiction/fantasy and it is faith related, so I'm okay with that.

As for some of the "mysteries" of the island, there were a few realizations that I came to last night.

1. Jacob was a grade-A jerk. Yes he had this thrust upon him, and he claimed to want to give each of them a choice, but some choice and method he had, huh?

2. I should have really realized this, back in Ab Aeterno, but with one little reference to Captain Hanso of the Black Rock, in retrospect, that answered all the questions for me satisfactorily about the Dharma Initiative. It was financed by the Hanso foundation - a cover organization for Jacob to keep funnelling potential replacement candidates to the island. To me it even explains the airdrops of supplies in 2004/2005 from the Dharma initiative - Jacob calls for supplies when he needs them in order to help new arrivals on the island.

3. Jacob made up the rules of the game. Clearly the guardian of the light has a lot of sway in the setting of the rules. Jacob set them as he saw fit - but Hugo could change them.

I've got a lot more, but this is way longer than I originally intended. 

The more I think about it, the more satisfied I am with the resolution. It's not Six Feet Under finale, but that wouldn't ring true for Lost. 

A+ on the finale, the final season in retrospect and the series as a whole.


----------



## Bierboy

betts4 said:


> This made me laugh out loud. Thanks! :up:


Me, too.


----------



## markz

wombat94 said:


> First Post from a lurker...
> 
> Hi all... I've been reading the TC boards and the Lost threads since the beginning, I just don't appear to have ever posted re: Lost before (looking at my posts - I can't really believe it, but that's what I see).
> 
> I went to sleep last night after JKL not sure what I felt about the finale, but when I woke up, JK's theory really brought me to my own underastanding.
> 
> I have read some of this thread, but not all, but here is my understanding of what went on in these 6 seasons.
> .....


Thanks for laying it all out there! I agree with everything you said. That is how I understood it all to be!


----------



## betts4

wombat94 said:


> First Post from a lurker...
> 
> A+ on the finale, the final season in retrospect and the series as a whole.


Post more!

That was great. I totally missed the Hanso connection before.

The whole thing with Jacob -well you know, he was raised by a lone crazy woman and not allowed any interaction with anyone else until later when he could go out to the world and find the candidates and 'touch them'. He must have had some serious relationship/social issues going on, some of which was shown by his snarky attitude sometimes.


----------



## ronsch

wombat94 said:


> First Post from a lurker...
> 
> Hi all... I've been reading the TC boards and the Lost threads since the beginning, I just don't appear to have ever posted re: Lost before (looking at my posts - I can't really believe it, but that's what I see).
> 
> I went to sleep last night after JKL not sure what I felt about the finale, but when I woke up, JK's theory really brought me to my own underastanding.
> 
> I have read some of this thread, but not all, but here is my understanding of what went on in these 6 seasons.
> 
> 1. Oceanic 815 really did crash on the Island... all of the on-island, and 3 years of off-island stuff really did happen. Jack really did take over from Jacob, and with Desmond's (and Kate's) help he did defeat Smokey and put the plug back in to save the island. All of that was real.
> 
> 2. This season's flash sideways was taking place in some sort of limbo that Jack inhabited until he was ready to move on to his place in the afterlife. BUT what we are seeing in the flash sideways is Jack's limbo. Just as there is no real concept of time in the FSW, there's no one reality in the FSW - it is what each of them makes of it.
> 
> 3. I believe that most of the other losties we see in the Flash sideways have already moved on in their own realities... some probably did so very quickly and easily in their lives (Sun and Jin I believe probably moved on together very easily since they were reunited at their deaths and were together). But others may have been stuck for a long time in their own limbo after their death.
> 
> 4. Desmond is the "Constant" and he still retains a certain ability to transcend space/time throughout all of this. Whatever Desmond is, it is beyond the rest of the people. But at the end of the real island timeline that we've seen, Desmond is going to live, and Hurley/Ben send him back home to be with Penny/little Charlie. He lives the rest of his natural life out and then once in the afterlife still has a role as a catalyst... helping to facilitate the moving on by other people once they are ready.
> 
> 5. I think that the "remembering" each of our familiar people experiences is their eternal "soul", or "essence" for lack of a better term, being brought fully conscious into Jack's limbo - because it is necessary for Jack to deal with his own experience in order to move on and through Desmond's actions, they are made aware that Jack is approaching the time when he will be ready - they are there to help him once he is ready.
> 
> 6. I think David doesn't really exist and never did exist. He's a construct of Jack's mind - a way for Jack to work through the issues with his father that he never could work through in life. The interactions we saw between Jack and David this season were critical to Jack finally being able to come to terms with his own feelings about his relationship with his father - and lay them to rest. At that point, Jack was ready to move on from his limbo.
> 
> 7. We don't know how long this could have taken Jack in terms of earthly timeline - it may have been a year, 10 years or a thousand years. As implied by the Hurley/Ben interaction outside of the church it was at least quite a while since Hugo was a good leader in the past tense. Obviously from Kate's reaction, it has taken quite a while for Jack to be ready.
> 
> 8. This is Jack's moving on experience... but in some way it is a reality that is still shared. Once Ben was brought into this reality, he could choose to stay for a while there - in order to really get to know Danielle and spend time with Alex. Similarly, Eloise and Daniel can stay there (along with Charlotte) - Daniel may not be ready to move on until something else happens.
> 
> So that's the big mythology related things and to me, it sums up for me the whole series in an emotionally satisfying way. From an intellectual standpoint, there are parts of it that won't ever work but it is fiction/fantasy and it is faith related, so I'm okay with that.
> 
> As for some of the "mysteries" of the island, there were a few realizations that I came to last night.
> 
> 1. Jacob was a grade-A jerk. Yes he had this thrust upon him, and he claimed to want to give each of them a choice, but some choice and method he had, huh?
> 
> 2. I should have really realized this, back in Ab Aeterno, but with one little reference to Captain Hanso of the Black Rock, in retrospect, that answered all the questions for me satisfactorily about the Dharma Initiative. It was financed by the Hanso foundation - a cover organization for Jacob to keep funnelling potential replacement candidates to the island. To me it even explains the airdrops of supplies in 2004/2005 from the Dharma initiative - Jacob calls for supplies when he needs them in order to help new arrivals on the island.
> 
> 3. Jacob made up the rules of the game. Clearly the guardian of the light has a lot of sway in the setting of the rules. Jacob set them as he saw fit - but Hugo could change them.
> 
> I've got a lot more, but this is way longer than I originally intended.
> 
> The more I think about it, the more satisfied I am with the resolution. It's not Six Feet Under finale, but that wouldn't ring true for Lost.
> 
> A+ on the finale, the final season in retrospect and the series as a whole.


Well put! :up::up:


----------



## ronsch

Anubys said:


> I wish the actors had said their lines a little better/clearer...at the time, I THOUGHT Hugo said "were" but could not be sure that it was "are"...I listened to it about 5 times and could not tell; which makes a huge difference, of course, in understanding what was going on...


Closed captioning definitely said "were".


----------



## unicorngoddess

I've had some time to think about this...in fact, it kept me up a lot last night. I've come to the following conclusion:

The ending had the potential to be the best series finale ever. The way it just brought everyone together and left them feeling happy was great.

But the writers ruined all that from what they created this season. They had this whole season to answer questions...questions that they had to have known the fans were expecting answers for. But instead, they created more mysteries. Jacob and MIB (and why exactly could we not know his name?). And what happened to Claire. Why did she end up going crazy after being dunked in the healing waters. Was I imagining this or at one point were we told that they would have a scientific explanation for everything on the island? 

I didn't need them to go into great detail...like, I don't care that the statue only had four toes. So what. You could have just told me that it was more cost-effective to have a four-toed statue. I didn't need an explanation to that. It just upsets me that they spent this season creating new characters and storylines all to have it mean absolutely nothing when they could have used that time to at least answer SOME questions. If they would have taken the time to do that, then I would have had a greater appreciation for the afterlife ending. Instead, it just brought me to the realization that the writers never had any answers in mind. They took it as far as they could and then gave us an ending that fell short.

I knew going into this that there was a high chance that I would be disappointed in the ending. You can't make everyone happy, afterall. But what I did expect was to be able to get something that would tie it all together, so when I go back to rewatch the series I could go....ooohhhh, now that makes more sense.


----------



## BeanMeScot

mwhip said:


> Jack was not the last to die just the last to "come around" on them being in purgatory? So they needed Desmond "the constant" and Hurley to get everyone to "see" since everyone was dead now and they could move on? I just really want to know who was the last to die. Did Desmond who came back to the Island with Widmore and thrown into the well know that there was a sideways world waiting to be resolved?


Jack was among the first to die since he died shortly after they came back to the island. Only people like Boone and Shannon and Locke died earlier. The rest died later. I would say Hurley probably died THOUSANDS of years later. (Remember how long Jacob was the protector of the island). Ben, too, since Hurley probably extended his life they way Jacob did Richard. But since time is meaningless in this place, they are both always there and never there. Once the ones that were really important to Jack died, that's when he finally accepted the memory flashes he was seeing and was able to go into the church and meet up with everyone again.

Desmond didn't know about the flash sideways when he was on the island. Remember everything on the island HAPPENED and in real time. Everything that happened in the flash sideways happened at wildly varying times and after people were dead.

I think Jack's son was the child he wanted but was never able to have. So he spent part of his afterlife enjoying raising a son he never really had.


----------



## cheesesteak

I don't know what the actor who played Walt did but they didn't even give him a one episode, brief cameo paycheck. Heck, even Vincent got paid.


----------



## Peter000

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know what the actor who played Walt did but they didn't even give him a one episode, brief cameo paycheck. Heck, even Vincent got paid.


I think they considered Walt's story wrapped up after Locke donkey-wheeled his way off the island and met with Walt briefly. I can't remember the conversation, but I remember it seemed to indicate that Walt was past his life on the Island.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know what the actor who played Walt did but they didn't even give him a one episode, brief cameo paycheck. Heck, even Vincent got paid.


I think I read somewhere last night that he had a scene that was cut. So, probably on the DVD.

I also saw a picture of Christian speaking from the church podium, at least he appeared to be, so maybe that's on the DVD too.


----------



## BeanMeScot

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know what the actor who played Walt did but they didn't even give him a one episode, brief cameo paycheck. Heck, even Vincent got paid.


I think the way he now looks in real life (6 years older) just wouldn't work with what he should look like based on the timeline of the show.


----------



## betts4

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know what the actor who played Walt did but they didn't even give him a one episode, brief cameo paycheck. Heck, even Vincent got paid.


He grew up. I mean, grew tall for the timeline.

And didn't we see how his life had moved on from the island time and became "unflawed".


----------



## WO312

Regarding the questions about Widmore - on the Kimmel show, even the actor who played Widmore (too lazy to look up his name) says that he still doesn't know whether Widmore was good or bad. So how could we know?


----------



## rondotcom

SeanC said:


> If that's the answer then I just don't get it. I just read the wiki entry for the episode and that didn't help either.
> 
> If I just forget about the FSW, things make a bit more sense, but the FSW just confuses the hell out of me. I don't understand why living people are in the FSW when that is supposed to be some afterlife thing. Why are living people there?


There are no living people there, Some died earlier, some later, but they were all dead. Coul be yeaterday, or 100 years from today bu the were all dead, And since time has no meaning there they could alkl experience it together, whenever they died


----------



## Fool Me Twice

WO312 said:


> Regarding the questions about Widmore - on the Kimmel show, even the actor who played Widmore (too lazy to look up his name) says that he still doesn't know whether Widmore was good or bad. So how could we know?


Alan Dale. I think I read once that he didn't think much of LOST. Kind of how Alec Guiness thought about Star Wars. I got the impression he just showed up and read his lines. So, I was surprised to see him on Kimmel.


----------



## jeff125va

latrobe7 said:


> The only thing I really had a problem with (and it's bugged me all season), is the idea that they'd be able to fly the plane off the island. But the good far outweighed the bad.


I wasn't thinking that so much, but I was wondering where they thought they were going to go, and whether they'd have enough fuel to get there.

But, as far as being able to leave goes, perhaps they were able to once the MIB was dead? Jacob had said that the island was like a cork to keep evil from escaping, so perhaps whatever it was that prevented people from leaving (at least without following a specific bearing or taking a submarine ride that required sedation) was no longer necessary?

That being said, when they first showed the wreckage on the beach at the very very end, I thought that it was the Ajira plane. I'm guessing based on the comments here that it wasn't, but I was thinking that it crashed, so we wouldn't have to speculate about what happened to Kate, Sawyer, etc.


----------



## JYoung

Fool Me Twice said:


> David doesn't exist? That sucks.


Maybe, he does.
What if Kate was pregnant when she left on Ajiria 316?


----------



## JYoung

jeff125va said:


> That being said, when they first showed the wreckage on the beach at the very very end, I thought that it was the Ajira plane. I'm guessing based on the comments here that it wasn't, but I was thinking that it crashed, so we wouldn't have to speculate about what happened to Kate, Sawyer, etc.


I read the end title shot of the plane wreckage as them just saying "This is where we began".


----------



## Boot

I'd love to see a screenshot of that final plane wreckage.


----------



## latrobe7

jeff125va said:


> I wasn't thinking that so much, but I was wondering where they thought they were going to go, and whether they'd have enough fuel to get there.


Those parts did not bother me; Frank has experience flying to and from the Island, so I can accept that if he keeps the same heading he did then, they could escape the Island. My problem was mainly taking off without a proper runway...


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Boot said:


> I'd love to see a screenshot of that final plane wreckage.


http://gallery.lost-media.com/thumbnails-1557-page-35.html


----------



## NatasNJ

Frank survived a submarine explosion? PLEASE!


----------



## cheesesteak

BeanMeScot said:


> I think the way he now looks in real life (6 years older) just wouldn't work with what he should look like based on the timeline of the show.


Yeah, but this show had time travel. They could have easily have come up with something if they'd wanted to. It's not like they felt the need to give concrete reasons for weirdness.


----------



## betts4

JYoung said:


> I read the end title shot of the plane wreckage as them just saying "This is where we began".


I was thinking that this was just all the old wreckage that had been there for 3 or 6 or whatever years since they crashed. Some of it had been used to build stuff but some had just been left.


----------



## Fool Me Twice




----------



## cheesesteak

NatasNJ said:


> Frank survived a submarine explosion? PLEASE!


A tree fell on Ben and he didn't even have a limp.


----------



## jeff125va

I was not disappointed by the ending. I'm not sure how crazy I am about the entire "flash sideways" and thinking of the entire season as the ending, I have to give it some more thought. But given that it was, I thought the finale was great.

As for the nuke, I don't think the fact that the island didn't sink meant that it didn't detonate (Japan is still there, after all) but if all that happened was they were transported in time just before it killed them, well, maybe I'm being being scientifically nitpicky but that would have to have happened pretty darn quickly. So if it did end up that "what happened, happened", then I guess we have to conclude that the surviving Dharma people cleaned up from the nuke explosion, and resumed construction of "the hatch" in the same location, right?


----------



## wouldworker

After the episode about the origins of Jacob/MiB, I finally accepted that we weren't going to get answers, that the writers didn't consider the show a mystery. So I changed my thinking. I thought that I would be satisfied if the finale brought the characters to satisfying conclusions to their lives, or at least resolutions to the issues that had made them "broken".

However, as I watched the finale I realized that I don't like most of the characters. Hurley was the only sympathetic character and he was stuck on the island, his true love dead. And then Libby doesn't even show up at the end. [Edit: It has been pointed out that Libby was there. I didn't notice. I cared that little by then.] Was she not Hurley's true love? Hurley's fate was to hang out with Ben for centuries? This ending for Hurley felt like the rest of the series to me - things were done because they were cool from a theatrical point of view but they made no sense for the plot or for the characters.

The more I think about it the more impressed I am by how the writers managed to wrap it all up with a very simple device (the flash sideways as purgatory or whatever you want to call it). That neatly resolved many questions. But I'm still unsatisfied because I _couldn't_ be satisfied - I just didn't care about the characters. No ending could have satisfied me. It's just a shame that I couldn't have figured that out years ago.


----------



## thenightfly42

At the end of the pre-show, the producers said that how you interpret the end of the show says a lot about your personal views. As a non-religious person, I don't take the sideways at face value. I suspect that the entire sideways occurred in Jack's head, in the last few minutes before he died after he saved the island. I see it as a wish-fulfillment, a "what if we didn't have all this bad stuff happen to us, but we could still be together".

I'm satisfied.


Fool Me Twice said:


> If the light in the center of the island goes out, everyone dies. So, even though MIB was made mortal and powerless, it all ends badly anyway.


I think that the Light was both good and bad, sort of like salt. A little salt is good for a recipe, too much is bad. With a plug blocking most of the light from getting out of the hole, and water diffusing it further, the light is good for the island. Let it release more quickly and unfiltered, things go bad.


----------



## Graymalkin

I have a sneaking suspicion that the sideways reality was created for Season 6 just so the producers would have questions that could be answered, because they painted themselves into a corner with all of the Island's mysteries.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

wouldworker said:


> And then Libby doesn't even show up at the end. Was she not Hurley's true love?


----------



## DavidTigerFan

wouldworker said:


> However, as I watched the finale I realized that I don't like most of the characters. Hurley was the only sympathetic character and he was stuck on the island, his true love dead. And then Libby doesn't even show up at the end. Was she not Hurley's true love? Hurley's fate was to hang out with Ben for centuries? This ending for Hurley felt like the rest of the series to me - things were done because they were cool from a theatrical point of view but they made no sense for the plot or for the characters.


Libby was in the church.


----------



## wouldworker

DavidTigerFan said:


> Libby was in the church.


I guess I cared so little by then that I didn't even notice.


----------



## DavidTigerFan

Also, what happened to all the people that went with locke before he killed everyone in the temple? ie the flight attendant and the children? Did they get stuck on the island?


----------



## astrohip

Alan Sepinwall has his review up. He has one line that really struck home for me:



> When "Lost" was really and truly great, it locked you so deep into the emotions of the moment that the larger questions didn't really matter.


----------



## unicorngoddess

So the whole "raised by another (an other)" concept...could that have maybe all come from Jacob's beginning? Jacob and MIB were raised by another. 

Jacob says he crossed Kate's name off because she became a mother. It seems as if he really resented being born on the island and forced into the job of protecting it without being given a choice. So he sent the warning to Claire so Aaron wouldn't have to worry about being in the same situation one day???


----------



## Turtleboy

betts4 said:


> I was thinking that this was just all the old wreckage that had been there for 3 or 6 or whatever years since they crashed. Some of it had been used to build stuff but some had just been left.


I agree. Interestingly, after the beginning of the first season, they really didn't show the crash debris that much at all, even when they returned to and were living on the beach.

Probably because it was too expensive of a set piece to set up and keep there.

I wonder if they shot that at the beginning of the series, or if they put it back together for the end.


----------



## jeff125va

JYoung said:


> I read the end title shot of the plane wreckage as them just saying "This is where we began".


That was my very initial thought but then I started thinking it was the Ajira plane. I couldn't tell much from the screen caps. I definitely don't recall ever seeing the wheels in the Oceanic wreckage. I would like to think that it was the Ajira flight. For one thing, Kate and Sawyer are on the plane together, but end up with Jack and Juliet in the end. I'd find it hard to believe that they wouldn't have gotten together if they'd both made it back home.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Turtleboy said:


> I agree. Interestingly, after the beginning of the first season, they really didn't show the crash debris that much at all, even when they returned to and were living on the beach.
> 
> Probably because it was too expensive of a set piece to set up and keep there.
> 
> I wonder if they shot that at the beginning of the series, or if they put it back together for the end.


Remember, they moved down the beach to a new camp when they had trouble with the tides or something.


----------



## Ekims

wouldworker said:


> After the episode about the origins of Jacob/MiB, I finally accepted that we weren't going to get answers, that the writers didn't consider the show a mystery. So I changed my thinking. I thought that I would be satisfied if the finale brought the characters to satisfying conclusions to their lives, or at least resolutions to the issues that had made them "broken".
> 
> However, as I watched the finale I realized that I don't like most of the characters. Hurley was the only sympathetic character and he was stuck on the island, his true love dead. And then Libby doesn't even show up at the end. [Edit: It has been pointed out that Libby was there. I didn't notice. I cared that little by then.] Was she not Hurley's true love? Hurley's fate was to hang out with Ben for centuries? This ending for Hurley felt like the rest of the series to me - things were done because they were cool from a theatrical point of view but they made no sense for the plot or for the characters.
> 
> The more I think about it the more impressed I am by how the writers managed to wrap it all up with a very simple device (the flash sideways as purgatory or whatever you want to call it). That neatly resolved many questions. But I'm still unsatisfied because I _couldn't_ be satisfied - I just didn't care about the characters. No ending could have satisfied me. It's just a shame that I couldn't have figured that out years ago.


Libby was in the church with Hugo..


----------



## danterner

Write my name in chalk on the wall of this thread amongst those who are satisfied with the finale. I loved it, even though there are parts of it I am still mulling over. While there are a few questions I wish had been addressed (How Walt fit in to all of this, why it was so important for Aaron not to be raised by another/an Other), I am content. Bravo to the writers, and thank you for 6 years of first-rate escapist entertainment.



Mike Wells said:


> I guess a big question would be - What is Desmond?


A catalyst. In purgatory, he was just as clueless as everyone else until Charlie drove him off the pier and woke him up.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> You only went there when you died, whenever that was. It existed outside of time.
> 
> Unless it was just Jack's dying fantasy.


Dammit, Rob. I thought I had it all worked out -- I was squarely in Turleboy's camp -- until you posted this alternate hypothesis. Now I think you may be right.

If it was all in Jack's head as he lay dying, then that would explain why we heard the sound of the Ajira flight passing overhead each episode this season during the cuts to the flash-sideways world (now a.k.a purgatory), since that is the last thing Jack saw/heard as he died.

What we were seeing in this finale episode was Jack's purgatory, which is not necessarily the same purgatory everyone else would experience. We were following Jack's story. I actually tried to hit on this possibility back in March, with this post:



danterner said:


> So, anyone think it is possible that we're seeing more than two realities? There's the "Island" Reality, and what we've been calling the "Sideways" Reality. But what if each sideways reality is a separate and distinct variation? We are seeing what each character's reality would have been had they not been touched by Jacob. But are we seeing one sideways reality that all the characters share in common, or multiple realities with each character at the center of their own reality?
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm not sure I buy into this -- in fact I'm pretty sure I don't -- but it's an intriguing possibility. If there are going to be multiple realities, why stop at two?


In other episodes this season, we were seeing the purgatories of other characters. In this final episode, everything coalesced back into one and they were all finally ready to move on, together.

wombat94 a few posts back, eloquently summed up what I think might actually be the true answer. It's kind of a union of the Turtleboy and Helmerich hypotheses.

Some other thoughts:

Time is meaningless in purgatory, which is a good explanation for the time discrepancies we were complaining about this season (e.g. the speed at which Locke got fired/got a new job/got run over etc, which seems like it should have occurred over a span of weeks, versus Sun's sideways story, which happened over a few days, yet they wound up wheeled into the ER at the same time. It also explains why Marvin Candle didn't look old, which was another continuity complaint people had.

I laughed out loud when Flocke spotted Vincent's paw print at Desmond's well. Presumably Vincent found Desmond, and ran off to get Rose and Bernard who rescued him from the well. ("What's that, Lassie? Timmy's fallen into a well?")


----------



## Steveknj

This may be the best explanation I read, from a friend's Facebook post:



> The Island was definitely real. While Jack dies in the bamboo field where he fell from the plane (brilliant last shot of his eye closing), with Vincent, he is wearing different clothes. Not much time this morning, so I copy and pasted what I said in a post to another friend last night:
> 
> They didn't die in the crash. The Island ... See Moretimeline was real. Notice that even though it ends with Jack in the bamboo with Vincent, eye closing, he's in different clothes. And Hurley thanks Ben for being a good second (ie, Hurley was in the Jacob role, with Ben as his helper -- his Richard, I supposed -- for some period of time). The Sideways timeline is what isn't real, what they create for themselves to get to live out what they missed in the Island (real) timeline. So Ben gets a loving father and a normal life. Locke gets a loving dad and wife (Helen). Daniel gets to be a musician. Eloise gets Daniel to live a normal life, and gets Charles. (Eloise isn't ready to give up Daniel yet, which is why Daniel and Charlotte are not at the church.) Jack gets a son. Kate gets to be innocent. Etc etc. They all die at different times and different places in life. But when they're ready, they flash to what was really the most important and meaningful time in their lives -- the Island. That's why Christian says there's no *now* Time is meaningless. Hurley may have died hundreds of years after Jack. That doesn't matter. The idea is that they'll go on to heaven together.


Not much I can say to improve on that.


----------



## betts4

danterner said:


> I laughed out loud when Flocke spotted Vincent's paw print at Desmond's well. Presumably Vincent found Desmond, and ran off to get Rose and Bernard who rescued him from the well. ("What's that, Lassie? Timmy's fallen into a well?")


Yes, I laughed too. It was especially fun because many fans had predicted or joked about that happening. This has happened thru the series, where fans suggest something or a reason and it comes into being in the plot. I can't remember any at the moment, but I know there were a couple.


----------



## jr461

So if the flash sideways was a purgatory-like world where they are dead and waiting for everyone to remember and join them, does that mean everyone else in that world is also dead? There is a whole population in that world that we saw during the flash sideways this year with whom the losties interacted. 

Saw Aaron at the church (still a baby). Do they appear as they did when they died or remembered the island events? What to make of a baby in this scenario.

I think I liked it, but as usual, many questions linger or arise. A show or movie is soured for me when a complicated ride is left open to interpretation at the end. I appreciate the ride provided for me btu I am not a writer. Don't leave me to try and figure out what happened or what happens next. It's not my story. There are writers...tell me the ending!


----------



## rlc1

unicorngoddess said:


> I've had some time to think about this...in fact, it kept me up a lot last night. I've come to the following conclusion:
> 
> The ending had the potential to be the best series finale ever. The way it just brought everyone together and left them feeling happy was great.
> 
> But the writers ruined all that from what they created this season. They had this whole season to answer questions...questions that they had to have known the fans were expecting answers for. But instead, they created more mysteries. Jacob and MIB (and why exactly could we not know his name?). And what happened to Claire. Why did she end up going crazy after being dunked in the healing waters. Was I imagining this or at one point were we told that they would have a scientific explanation for everything on the island?
> 
> I didn't need them to go into great detail...like, I don't care that the statue only had four toes. So what. You could have just told me that it was more cost-effective to have a four-toed statue. I didn't need an explanation to that. It just upsets me that they spent this season creating new characters and storylines all to have it mean absolutely nothing when they could have used that time to at least answer SOME questions. If they would have taken the time to do that, then I would have had a greater appreciation for the afterlife ending. Instead, it just brought me to the realization that the writers never had any answers in mind. They took it as far as they could and then gave us an ending that fell short.
> 
> I knew going into this that there was a high chance that I would be disappointed in the ending. You can't make everyone happy, afterall. But what I did expect was to be able to get something that would tie it all together, so when I go back to rewatch the series I could go....ooohhhh, now that makes more sense.


Well put.


----------



## TonyTheTiger

...and then Bob Newhart woke up with Suzanne Pleshette by his side!


----------



## whitson77

Graymalkin said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion that the sideways reality was created for Season 6 just so the producers would have questions that could be answered, because they painted themselves into a corner with all of the Island's mysteries.


Yep.


----------



## jeff125va

I found Alt-Locke's momentary "lapse" into real Locke's character rather interesting. For a long time, I was not convinced that it was not the MIB who had taken Christian's form the same way that he had taken Locke's. There were several key differences, namely that he basically referred to himself as though he actually were Christian, e.g. when he told (real) Locke to "say hello to my son" before Locke turned the donkey wheel, and I believe he referred to himself as Christian by name a number of times. However, personality-wise, he didn't seem much like Christian at all, at least in the times we saw him alive, usually with Jack. He was generally a somewhat cold sort of person.

But when he was Locke, he really seemed to take on John Locke's mannerisms and general personality, but IIRC never really purported or pretended to actually _be_ John Locke, at least once it started to become clear to us as the audience that he wasn't. But then he started talking to Jack about how it seemed like old times at the Hatch, etc.

Also we saw Locke's body but Christian's was never found.

Anyway, that is one of the things I never got much resolution on. I mean they confirmed that MIB actually did become Christian (in the recap show) but never really explained those differences.


----------



## LordKronos

cheesesteak said:


> - How'd they get that big ass tree off of Linus? He was spry afterwards for having a tree fall on him.


I don't think the tree fell ON him. It fell on a rock,creating a space between the tree and the ground that was big enough not to crush ben, but small enough to pin him in:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1557-908.html


----------



## betts4

LordKronos said:


> I don't think the tree fell ON him. It fell on a rock,creating a space between the tree and the ground that was big enough not to crush ben, but small enough to pin him in:
> http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1557-908.html


I had a flashback to Sun in the sub and wondered who was going to stay and die with him.


----------



## unicorngoddess

jeff125va said:


> Anyway, that is one of the things I never got much resolution on. I mean they confirmed that MIB actually did become Christian (in the recap show) but never really explained those differences.


And also, why was MIB now permanately stuck in the form of Locke?


----------



## SocratesJohnson

Steveknj said:


> They didn't die in the crash. The Island ... See Moretimeline was real. Notice that even though it ends with Jack in the bamboo with Vincent, eye closing, he's in different clothes. And Hurley thanks Ben for being a good second (ie, Hurley was in the Jacob role, with Ben as his helper -- his Richard, I supposed -- for some period of time). The Sideways timeline is what isn't real, what they create for themselves to get to live out what they missed in the Island (real) timeline. So Ben gets a loving father and a normal life. Locke gets a loving dad and wife (Helen). Daniel gets to be a musician. Eloise gets Daniel to live a normal life, and gets Charles. (Eloise isn't ready to give up Daniel yet, which is why Daniel and Charlotte are not at the church.) Jack gets a son. Kate gets to be innocent. Etc etc. They all die at different times and different places in life. But when they're ready, they flash to what was really the most important and meaningful time in their lives -- the Island. That's why Christian says there's no *now* Time is meaningless. Hurley may have died hundreds of years after Jack. That doesn't matter. The idea is that they'll go on to heaven together.


If this is so, why would Kate create another life in which she was a fugitive? And why would Sayid create another life where he was a killer and couldn't be with Nadia?


----------



## LordKronos

rlc1 said:


> Thank you for posting a reasoned response - unlike some others here who choose to insult others that don't agree with them.


Well, I think others posted the way they did because, the explanation of the smoke monster as just given to you was a fairly important part of a very recent episode and thus should still be fresh in your mind. I'm pretty sure everyone here assumed you were well aware of the nature of the smoke monster, but that for some reason you were looking for even MORE details about his creation. Thus the jokes about knowing the molecular structure and midichlorians and such.


----------



## jeff125va

MickeS said:


> Yes. If it wasn't a shot for shot replica of the opening shots from the pilot, it was pretty close.


I noticed that they even had the shoe hanging from a tree that he had passed by in the pilot.


----------



## ronsch

unicorngoddess said:


> So the whole "raised by another (an other)" concept...could that have maybe all come from Jacob's beginning? Jacob and MIB were raised by another.
> 
> Jacob says he crossed Kate's name off because she became a mother. It seems as if he really resented being born on the island and forced into the job of protecting it without being given a choice. So he sent the warning to Claire so Aaron wouldn't have to worry about being in the same situation one day???


I think it was only with respect to the fact that she had certain responsibilities in raising a child while conversely, his "mother" was only trying to raise a successor.


----------



## MickeS

Polcamilla said:


> Aside from that, was there ever a point to the Tailies except to reunite Rose and her husband?


The point was to tell an entertaining and engrossing story.


----------



## ronsch

unicorngoddess said:


> And also, why was MIB now permanately stuck in the form of Locke?


That was something that happened when Jacob died but like so many other things the exact reason wasn't given.


----------



## SocratesJohnson

For all the people saying the show was all about the characters, i can go with that. However, for me, the island *was* a character and I think it was purposely written that way. So yeah, after six years I'm a little disappointed that the island questions didn't get some kind of answers.


----------



## betts4

MickeS said:


> The point was to tell an entertaining and engrossing story.


To get a bunch of new actors to Hawaii and get them arrested for DUI's and get some publicity going for the show and then have to find a way to write them out of the plot.

Oh, and besides Rose, it let Libby and Hurley find each other.


----------



## LordKronos

I'd appreciate if someone could fill in one bit which appears to be a lapse in my memory. In previous flashes, we saw that Jack and his son had a very adversarial relationship. Then in recent flashes, it was like jack was the best dad in the world and always had been. I had been thinking that the difference was that the not-good-dad-jack was in the flash forwards and the good-dad-jack was in the flash-sideways. But now that we've been told jack doesn't have a son, then I'm guessing all of those clips were in the FSW clips and I'm just mixed up. So what happened? I remember jack showed up at his son's piano recital and maybe things patched up from there, but I'm not sure how that lead to their best-buddy relationship. Is there something there I'm missing or misremembering?


----------



## MickeS

rlc1 said:


> What I can't figure out is why people that like the ending are so angry at people that didn't.  I gave my explanations as to why I didn't like it. If you don't understand, so be it. I didn't like the ending; you did. People have different opinions - that's why we're on this forum, to read about everyone else's opinion. Don't belittle people because they don't agree with you.


I'm not angry. I am honestly just a bit perplexed that some seem miffed that we didn't find out the exact nature of the machinations of the Island, and that the finale focused on showing us what happened to the main characters of the show. I would have been more annoyed had it been the other way around (but happy to have more of both).

Whether it was done right or wrong is another matter, but some of the criticism seems to be not about how it was carried out, but that it didn't deal more in the minutiae of technical explanations.


----------



## jeff125va

unicorngoddess said:


> And also, why was MIB now permanately stuck in the form of Locke?


I guess since he's dead, he just stayed that way by default. Or I guess it really happened when he became mortal, since it wasn't really a body per se(he had said "I _used to_ have a body") but I guess it became one when he became mortal, and it was just Locke's by default.


----------



## MickeS

speedcouch said:


> I think the writers really copped out, but the way this season was going I knew they'd never be able to wrap it up to my satisfaction.


They could NEVER wrap it up to everyone's satisfaction. It was an impossible task, so I'm guessing they wrapped it up to THEIR satisfaction and hoped others would agree.


----------



## BrandonRe

SocratesJohnson said:


> If this is so, why would Kate create another life in which she was a fugitive? And why would Sayid create another life where he was a killer and couldn't be with Nadia?


I don't think they "created" the sideways world in the sense of consciously deciding to continue life as a fugitive, killer, doctor, etc. My take is that upon death, each of our Losties was pulled into this communal experience because they had shared this incredibly meaningful and important series of events. For most (all?) of them, the events which began with the crash of Oceanic 815 were what allowed them to experience freedom, wholeness, wellness, full potential, atonement, etc.

Because this "salvation", if you'll pardon the expression, was a shared experience, the afterlife was also to be entered into in a shared manner. They would share eternity with the people who helped them become whole and healed. Note the importance of the word "help" in the final episode. Nobody is alone. All are in need of other people.


----------



## jeff125va

LordKronos said:


> I'd appreciate if someone could fill in one bit which appears to be a lapse in my memory. In previous flashes, we saw that Jack and his son had a very adversarial relationship. Then in recent flashes, it was like jack was the best dad in the world and always had been. I had been thinking that the difference was that the not-good-dad-jack was in the flash forwards and the good-dad-jack was in the flash-sideways. But now that we've been told jack doesn't have a son, then I'm guessing all of those clips were in the FSW clips and I'm just mixed up. So what happened? I remember jack showed up at his son's piano recital and maybe things patched up from there, but I'm not sure how that lead to their best-buddy relationship. Is there something there I'm missing or misremembering?


It all stemmed from the piano recital thing. Jack hadn't even known that his son was still playing or that he was that talented. He had made Juliet promise not to tell Jack because he had felt like Jack made such a big deal out of it. And Jack realized that he was continuing his father's mistake of making his son feel like he didn't want to let his father see him fail. Jack told his son he was sorry for that and promised him that in his eyes, he could never be a failure.


----------



## mqpickles

markp99 said:


> Probably the 8-spoked dharma wheel (Tibet):


Uh yeah. That.

Obviously I'm no student of eastern religions.


----------



## Graymalkin

I'm going with the entirely derivative idea that the Pool of Light is actually a plugged-up Hellmouth that keeps the Lovecraftian Great Old Ones like Cthulhu bottled up.


----------



## betts4

Graymalkin said:


> I'm going with the entirely derivative idea that the Pool of Light is actually a plugged-up Hellmouth that keeps the Lovecraftian Great Old Ones like Cthulhu bottled up.


For some reason Buffy finale came to mind.


----------



## cwoody222

Mike Wells said:


> Anyone else thing the apollo bar in the machine was a parallel for the island endgame? That's what I thought jkeegan was talking about earlier, from the episode - "If you unplug it and plug it back in, the candy drops down. And, it's technicall legal."
> 
> Pull the power of the island and the rules change - MIB can die.
> 
> Love it!


I didn't notice that last night. Sort of cool.

BUT neither Juliet or Sawyer would have known about pulling the plug on the island. So why would either one of them "imagine" that about the candy machine in their made-up world?


----------



## Polcamilla

Cearbhaill said:


> _At this point _I feel exactly as I did after seeing the ending of 'Atonement'.... screwed over by being manipulated into becoming emotionally invested in something that never happened.


Isn't that true of pretty much all television?


----------



## wombat94

MickeS said:


> They could NEVER wrap it up to everyone's satisfaction. It was an impossible task, so I'm guessing they wrapped it up to THEIR satisfaction and hoped others would agree.


Exactly... there was no way to wrap this up to everyone's satisfaction. But I think it is a stretch to say that this was a cop out ending.

Whether or not it was in place and envisioned from the beginning is irrelevant in my mind... I do think that they had this vision for several years - since they had the end-date agreed to by ABC at least.

Given that, their job then became to create a compelling story that worked on an emotional level and (secondarily) on an intellectual level.

Agree or disagree with what they did at the end, I don't think it's a cop out.

The greatest cop out in TV series finale history to me was Tommy Westpahl imagining all of St. Elsewere... take characters that we've loved and cared about for years and make every experience that they went through imaginary and non-existant... that was a cheap, sophomoric, lazy writers trick.

Whatever you want to say about Lost, I don't think that exists in this finale... with the exception of the flash-sideways world, everything that we saw in the 5+ seasons really happened to these characters and their emotions: pain, joy, love, hate, fear, anger, etc. Were real.

If you take my view that what we saw in the flash sideways was Jack's own time in limbo, then the experiences he had in the FSW world are also real emotions as well.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of the story overall and how satisfying it was to them... but I think it is not fair to call what the writers did a "cop-out" just because it didn't resolve things the way you wanted it to.


----------



## betts4

Okay, so who else was on the edge of their seat when FakeLocke walked up on Rose and Bernard's place and pulled the knife out. I swear I would have turned it off if he had done to Rose what he did to Zoe. (I wasn't mad about that)


----------



## uncdrew

Fool Me Twice said:


> If the light in the center of the island goes out, everyone dies. So, even though MIB was made mortal and powerless, it all ends badly anyway.


The light did go out. Everyone didn't die.


----------



## Cearbhaill

jr461 said:


> Saw Aaron at the church (still a baby). Do they appear as they did when they died or remembered the island events? What to make of a baby in this scenario.


Aaron appeared as_ Jack_ remembered him- as did they all.
This was _Jack's_ ending,_ Jack's _death. Everyone who played an important role in _his _journey was there to help him pass and/or pass with him.
Those characters who were not there were not integral to _Jack's_ journey, at least in his mind.

IMO the AU wasn't so much purgatory as it was the Reconciliation Room.
I think that Ben staying behind was a representation of some of the characters that were missing- not present in the church, not ready to move-on, not finished reconciling their major life issues. 
Either that or their most significant time was not on the island so they have their own people to meet up with in a different room.


----------



## Bryanmc

Fool Me Twice said:


>


What's Charlie looking at? 

I thought the episode was fine. I enjoyed the stuff on the island, disappointed with the flash sideways being a purgatory type place.

One thought about this episode:

Seems like Jacob could have been a little more forthcoming with Jack (I know, that's NEVER been a complaint before). Jacob got Desmond back to the island, so we have to assume that Jacob understood what Desmond could do. If he thought Desmond's abilities would only destroy the island, he wouldn't have brought him back.

So, why not just tell Jack, "Desmond needs to pull out the plug in the light tunnel, that will make MIB mortal, you kill him, then Desmond puts the plug back." I know they didn't have a lot of time, but it wouldn't take that long. I just did it right then. No time at all.

Jack could have had a knife at the ready right behind MIB at the top of the waterfall and run him through. No need to figure it out while fighting MIB.


----------



## uncdrew

mwhip said:


> Wow 346 posts since last night!! I don't have much to say other than the ending was OK and since it was not "linear" I am a little confused.
> 
> Jack was not the last to die just the last to "come around" on them being in purgatory? So they needed Desmond "the constant" and Hurley to get everyone to "see" since everyone was dead now and they could move on? I just really want to know who was the last to die. Did Desmond who came back to the Island with Widmore and thrown into the well know that there was a sideways world waiting to be resolved?


It would be quite interesting to see how and when each character died.

You would think Ben and Hurley lasted a long time, but who knows?


----------



## Graymalkin

More entirely derivative ideas from the mind of Graymolta...

Sideways is where you go when you don't want to end up in Grandview and have to listen to Melinda Gordon yammer tearfully about "going into the light."

Sideways is actually the Nexus from "Star Trek: Generations" before it broke loose and started wandering through space.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

uncdrew said:


> The light did go out. Everyone didn't die.


I guess the pilot light stays on a little while. At least until the island sinks.


----------



## stalemate

uncdrew said:


> You would think Ben and Hurley lasted a long time, but who knows?


I think Hurley probably lived to be 108 years old.


----------



## unicorngoddess

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention that was the first thing hubby and I thought about after the end of the finale. It was just like the episode of South Park...



Spoiler



Where all the celebrities that had died in the past year or so were all waiting for Michael Jackson to accept that his life was over so they could all move on into the afterlife...and what makes that even more ironic is that they were all waiting on a plane. It's as if Matt and Trey KNEW how Lost was gonna end and they were making fun of it ahead of time.


----------



## MickeS

wouldworker said:


> To keep Hurley fat. It's as simple as that. The writers realized the same thing that everyone else did in the early episodes - the guy who plays Hurley is fat and he's not going to get thinner, so they needed to explain how he could stay fat living on the island. The solution was to drop jars of peanut butter on the island. So they asked themselves why someone would be dropping peanut butter on the island and they made up the Dharma Initiative.
> 
> I'm convinced that the entire series was written using this method. Inadvertently dig a hole and invent a plot device to fill it.


I agree with this actually. By their own admission, a lot of the writers' ideas came up by saying "Wouldn't it be cool if...?", and I think a LOT of the "pre-set-enddate" stuff was made so that the characters could be strung along almost indefinitely.

I don't have a problem with this actually, it's the nature of TV, and I always got the impression that the writers still had an end game in mind. And it was a hell of a ride while it lasted.


----------



## unicorngoddess

cwoody222 said:


> BUT neither Juliet or Sawyer would have known about pulling the plug on the island. So why would either one of them "imagine" that about the candy machine in their made-up world?


And it makes me wonder...right before Juliet died, she said there was something important she had to tell Sawyer...but she dies before she can tell him. I always assumed she was going to tell him that their plan actually worked. Now I'm thinking...maybe she was trying to give him the answer. Unplug the magical cork and plug it back in and that fixes the problem.


----------



## MickeS

uncdrew said:


> It would be quite interesting to see how and when each character died.
> 
> You would think Ben and Hurley lasted a long time, but who knows?


I see a "The adventures of Ben and Hurley" spinoff... maybe a video game.


----------



## d-dub

RegBarc said:


> Speaking of epic lulz, somone in the massive Lost thread over at Something Awful just got banned for 100,000 hours for posting a spoiler.
> 
> Isn't that like 11 and 1/2 years?


It would have been more appropriate if they'd made it 108 days


----------



## betts4

I loved Frank handing Miles the duct tape. 

And it seemed Boone had recalled before Shannon did, how? and if he remembered, then why couldn't he cause shannon to remember?


----------



## DancnDude

I have to say that last night I thought it was both an amazing episode and I couldn't help to be a little let down. Then after giving it some time and reading stuff here, the ending is growing on me. It seems like the more you think about it, the more satisfying it becomes. At least for me.

Thanks to everybody who is posting their ideas of what the ending is. In some ways, having an ending like this does exactly what individual episodes did was entirely appropriate: it gives the viewers something to discuss and ponder. Make the ending mean what you want it to mean. 

Now let's bring on the spinoff, Lost 2: Hurley's Reign


----------



## SugarBowl

I sure thought Locke could have pushed jack over the edge of the waterfall into the light, just like jacob did to him.


----------



## stalemate

DancnDude said:


> Lost 2: Hurley's Boogaloo


FYP


----------



## wombat94

MickeS said:


> I don't have a problem with this actually, it's the nature of TV, and I always got the impression that the writers still had an end game in mind. And it was a hell of a ride while it lasted.


I agree with this completely.

It's the nature of TV, or comic books, or any serialized form of fiction. You don't have to have an idea of where the end is when you start... I don't see that as necessarily a problem. If it's handled correctly, it can be an asset.

I think it was in the recent Entertainment Weekly article that they said they didn't even have a continuity department on the show in the first year, then when it was a hit, they realized that they had dug themselves in some pretty big holes.

That's fine with me... I don't care if they thought up the ending 6 years ago or 6 weeks ago... it doesn't matter to me if the author of a novel ended up where he or she expected when they started writing the book... as a reader/viewer, all I really care about is whether I feel satisfied with what the final story was... I wouldn't even care if it was just improv.


----------



## xuxa

unicorngoddess said:


> And it makes me wonder...right before Juliet died, she said there was something important she had to tell Sawyer...but she dies before she can tell him. I always assumed she was going to tell him that their plan actually worked. Now I'm thinking...maybe she was trying to give him the answer. Unplug the magical cork and plug it back in and that fixes the problem.


I liked she said "it worked" in that episode when she was dying, which is exactly what she said when the candy machine dropped the the Apollo bar right before she touched Sawyer.


----------



## danterner

So the blood that kept appearing at Jack's throat in purgatory was basically like a stigmata resulting from Locke's knife being pressed up against Jack's neck during their final battle.

Was the "appendectomy" scar, from an appendectomy Jack couldn't recall having, similarly stigmata from the fatal wound he took in his side?


----------



## betts4

The Jack and Kate last kiss on the cliff top was nice. Feel the passion that they have been denying and accepting and then denying for six seasons. 

Hurley's "Dude I am not going down that" in regards to the skimpy ladder was great. Could Kate and Sawyer survived a dive like that?


----------



## Fool Me Twice

danterner said:


> So the blood that kept appearing at Jack's throat in purgatory was basically like a stigmata from Locke's knife, pressed up against his neck during their final battle.
> 
> Was the "appendectomy" scar, from an appendectomy he couldn't recall having, similarly stigmata from the fatal wound he took in his side?


I like it!


----------



## MickeS

Polcamilla said:


> Isn't that true of pretty much all television?


I see Cerbhaill's point though, but I think it' might be misdirected or based on a misunderstanding (or, I guess, just a disagreement ). A lot of time, writers will create a "dream reality" where characters interact in ways that leave the "real reality" unimportant, and when we unknowingly invest our emotions into the "dream reality" of the show, and it turns out that it didn't really have consequences for the characters, because it wasn't "real", that can be very annoying. I certainly have felt that way over the years with various episodes of shows (think "Dallas" and the "Bobby Ewing coming out of the shower" ).

I would have HATED a "it was all a dream" type ending, and I think some interpret the ending as that. But it wasn't. These were the same characters, leading sideways lives that felt real TO THEM, and that had real consequences (be they in a different plane of reality). And all the Island stuff we've ever been shown DID happen. It wasn't a "and then they woke up", where none of what we saw before mattered. It ALL mattered. It was what created the "sideways" world, and the "sideways" world would not have existed without the "real" world characters and events.


----------



## jeff125va

It will be interesting to re-watch this entire season and look for clues that the "flash sideways" is what it turned out to be. Something like Hoffs-Drawler or maybe something not quite like that.

Here's another theory about the wreckage at the end, during the credits. What if it were another plane that Hurley made crash in order to find his own replacement?


----------



## unicorngoddess

SugarBowl said:


> I sure thought Locke could have pushed jack over the edge of the waterfall into the light, just like jacob did to him.


Halfway through, my thoughts were that Jack was going to push FLocke back down into that cave and it would reverse everything that ever happened with regards to Smokey. Time rewinds back and Jacob decides to let his brother leave the island with the warning that once he leaves, he'll never be able to find his way back to this place. With that out of the way, Jacob lives out his life on the island, protecting the light. None of the "canidates" are ever brought to the island, and island life ends up merging with the alternate timeline...where, through some mystical powers of Desmond, the Losties have these flashes of memories from the island reality and then end up living out their lives together in that reality.


----------



## danterner

jeff125va said:


> It will be interesting to re-watch this entire season and look for clues that the "flash sideways" is what it turned out to be. Something like Hoffs-Drawler or maybe something not quite like that.


From a few seasons ago, there was the CANTON-RANIER laundry van (which was an anagram for REINCARNATION). Could it be said that after the characters each died, they were reincarnated in purgatory? Or does reincarnation necessarily imply coming back to the same plane of existence you were on before?


----------



## BrandonRe

betts4 said:


> I loved Frank handing Miles the duct tape.
> 
> And it seemed Boone had recalled before Shannon did, how? and if he remembered, then why couldn't he cause shannon to remember?


Because he wasn't Shannon's constant. You could ask the same question about any of the characters. Desmond and Hurley were bringing them all to the places/situations where they would meet their constants. It takes more than just an encounter with someone who remembers.


----------



## Bryanmc

danterner said:


> Was the "appendectomy" scar, from an appendectomy Jack couldn't recall having, similarly stigmata from the fatal wound he took in his side?


Sorry to say it but, "Duh".


----------



## jkeegan

Damn, 11 pages (40 per) long and I was only on 7 when I fell asleep. Ok screw it, going full-on smeek mode - complain away in the next Lost thread..

First, I'd it hasn't been fully explained before this post, yes the nuke did go off (but it didn't do much significantly, other than cause one more flash to 2007). Remember it was only *part* of the nuke, and it was pretty far down in the well, and it was near a pocket of magic energy, so there are enough outs as to how that doesn't destroy the island or anything. The reason to assume it went off? Well first the flash when she hit the bomb (no one else caused that flash, that we saw), and second the idea that Juliete, who was brought to the island to figure out why kids can't be concieved&born on the island since the 70s after the Incident, actually caused it during the incident by detonating the bomb. Poetic.

Kate early in this episode, seeing the coffin, said to Desmond "who died?", and during my rewatch I said aloud "apparently all of you!"

Excellent scene where Jack tells flocke that he's going to join him, that flocke THINKS he's going to destroy the island, but that really Jack is going to kill him.. and that "how" was going to be a surprise. 

Great line (paraphrased): "That's one hell of a long con, doc!". !!!!! awesome!!!!

Ok so my take spelled out is that the sideways is a MADE little purgatory-like thing like a game lobby that let the dead souls of s bunch of them all meet up after their respective games were over, even though they all died at different times.

No one had to "wait" because it was outside time. They all arrived in this MADE fake place, which was a loose copy of our main timeline, but with some changes (like a lack of Jacob interference), which were probably deliberately made. They all got one last hurrah, being able to live and experience what their lives up until 815 would have been like without Jacob's interference, but the real reason this made place/existance/world exists is to collect the souls of these friends, in this cliche (not including Artz, etc), so they can all reunite and "move on" together (to "whatever" - rebirth, heaven, nothingness, whatever the viewer wants).

As to who "made" that sideways world, at first it seemed pretty clear to me that it was Hurley with his new powers, which (lay-claim-mode) I'd even claimed several weeks ago, saying maybe this was a "starter" universe made by a rookie like Hurley that didn't even make it convincing enough that try couldn't figure it out, since they were all way too frequently bumping into each other (/lay-claim-mode).

The idea there being that when Ben suggested to Hurley that he can forget Jacob's way and figure out his own way to help his friends, that was clearly what they were talking about.

After the rewatch, while I still feel it's obvious that Hurley made the sideways, I'm opening myself up to the possibility that maybe instead it was Jack, while lying in the plug room, being bathed in the light/water mix and still being like-Jacob/Hurley, that made the sideways.

Ben didn't go with them because he wanted more time to watch Alex grow, maybe have dinner with Danielle a few hundred times, and basically get to enjoy his life a bit (as him, not as the timid teacher that didn't feel like he'd accomplished much).

Michael wasn't invited to their afterlife soul-gathering lobby, because they didn't like him (he killed Libby, and that was kinda unforgivable, despite the whispers scene we saw with Michael in the jungle). He was a good example, though, of what can happen to someone who dies and hasn't moved on that ISN'T in the club - he just wandered the island, with no real chance to redeem himself and move on. Hurley knew that from his talk with them, which is more reason he'd want to prevent his friends from that fate (especially since most of them had killed people and really needed a chance for redemption so they could move on together).

Faraday wasn't invited because his poor mother didn't get enough time with him, so he let him stick around for a lot longer (also enjoying what he'd really wanted to do - playing music).

What I meant by saying that it was brilliant to have Juliete say her secret about unplugging was two things that the writers were really saying:
1) If they unplug the huge stone cork and the light goes out and the "candy" (kill Locke) drops, it's technically legal and not cheating writing-wise if they have the light come back on if you plug it back in.
and/or
2) (better) the writers are saying that it wasn't cheating showing us what would happen if things changed on a non-crash 815 (despite their absolute self-imposed difficult writing rule "what happened, happened") if the way that they do that is by unplugging everyone (everyone dies) and they're re-plugged in (they live in this new other world), because that other world is in an afterlife, post death.. It's fake - constructed. Their more-difficult task of creating a consistent static "what happened, happened" story line in season 5 (and earlier) isn't invalidated/broken/made-inconsistent by showing us this other world, if it's after they all die, in some new afterlife world. I agree with the writers 100%. They even had Jack call it out by correcting Desmond and telling him that he'd already tried changing things, and there were no short cuts, what happened, happened. Brilliant.

So, one thing that's a bit weird is the idea that in the real world, Hurley saw ghost Charlie outside the insane asylum(sp?), yet that ghost Charlie didn't share any memories with the ghost-Charlie-living-in-the-sideways-game-lobby.. Eh..

Pulling the plug again looked like The Quickening - incredible special effects and sound. That's what it should have felt like to become the next protector. 

Loved how Hurley only agreed once he had told Jack it was temporary, and that he was gonna give it right back to him after. 

Once Jack's body was somehow expelled from the light cave, he rested in exactly the same pose (I think) on the same log as MiB's body (before he made it past the shoe to his starting spot in the jungle).

Can't believe I never guessed it'd end on an eye close (until the 10 seconds before it did).

Locke saying "It looks like you were wrong" to Jack at the top of the cave wad like an opposite of the line in the hatch where they didn't push the button and metal was flying everywhere and he said something like "I was wrong..."

Ben's on top of a cliff, and he just casually THROWS a walkie talkie to James?? Nice catch! Oops, dropped the walkie.. Game over..

And my I'll end this post with this one - I loved that when they had MiB finally killed by being kicked over the cliff by Jack, he didn't even land in the water!!! He landed on a rock ledge, RIGHT NEXT to it. He never made it off the island (yeah yeah, small boat trips to hydra.. missing the point). Evoked the memory of his mother saying (paraphrased) "My love, you must know that whatever you have been told, you will never leave this island".

Ok time to see how behind I am now!


----------



## greggt007

Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
(havent read all 16 pages)


----------



## d-dub

Turtleboy said:


> Exactly. Clear as day.
> 
> Hurley and Ben ruled on the Island for quite some time, possibly.
> 
> My only question was how did Jack get out of the hole?


My quote to Jami as we watched it: "I wonder what it feels like to be puked out by an island?"


----------



## jeff125va

danterner said:


> From a few seasons ago, there was the CANTON-RANIER laundry van (which was an anagram for REINCARNATION). Could it be said that after the characters each died, they were reincarnated in purgatory? Or does reincarnation necessarily imply coming back to the same plane of existence you were on before?


I don't remember that. Was there anything specific that it was supposed to be a reference to? I could sort of see it being a hint about MIB/Locke.

I imagine that if you were telling a story that involves both different planes of existence and reincarnation, then you could certainly combine them.


----------



## Bryanmc

greggt007 said:


> Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
> (havent read all 16 pages)


Large planes have reverse thrust, which can be used to actually back up a plane if cranked all the way up. Now, can it move a plane out of a jungle? Maybe it had some help from the Island.

I would have much preferred if Smokie pushed the plane into position earlier.


----------



## Mike Farrington

jeff125va said:


> Here's another theory about the wreckage at the end, during the credits. What if it were another plane that Hurley made crash in order to find his own replacement?


I would hope Hurley served for more than just a couple of years before throwing in the towel. I would hope that after a few hundred years that air travel evolves a little bit.


----------



## betts4

jkeegan said:


> I'm opening myself up to the possibility that maybe instead it was Jack, while lying in the plug room, being bathed in the light/water mix and still being like-Jacob/Hurley, that made the sideways.


I like that idea.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Bryanmc said:


> Seems like Jacob could have been a little more forthcoming with Jack (I know, that's NEVER been a complaint before). Jacob got Desmond back to the island, so we have to assume that Jacob understood what Desmond could do. If he thought Desmond's abilities would only destroy the island, he wouldn't have brought him back.


I don't think what happened was Jacob's plan...it was MiB's plan, only it didn't work out the way he intended.

Jacob wanted Jack to take over the Jacob role and keep MiB trapped on the island. MiB wanted to use Desmond to unplug the hole and free him. Jack thought Desmond was important to Jacob's plan, not MiB's, so let him do his thing. When he realized his mistake, he improvised (brilliantly), taking advantage of the power-down to kill MiB, then anoint Hurley as his successor and go back into the cave to re-stop the hole.

Which probably gives Jack the all-time record for shortest tenure of an Island Protector!


----------



## Bryanmc

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think what happened was Jacob's plan...it was MiB's plan, only it didn't work out the way he intended.
> 
> Jacob wanted Jack to take over the Jacob role and keep MiB trapped on the island. MiB wanted to use Desmond to unplug the hole and free him. Jack thought Desmond was important to Jacob's plan, not MiB's, so let him do his thing. When he realized his mistake, he improvised (brilliantly), taking advantage of the power-down to kill MiB, then anoint Hurley as his successor and go back into the cave to re-stop the hole.
> 
> Which probably gives Jack the all-time record for shortest tenure of an Island Protector!


But Jacob had Widmore bring Desmond back to the Island. Why do that if he didn't plan for him to do something?


----------



## DavidTigerFan

DavidTigerFan said:


> Also, what happened to all the people that went with locke before he killed everyone in the temple? ie the flight attendant and the children? Did they get stuck on the island?


Things are moving so fast I think this got Lost. Anyone know what happened to them?


----------



## jeff125va

greggt007 said:


> Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
> (havent read all 16 pages)


I think they can only use it on the ground, not in the air.


----------



## SocratesJohnson

greggt007 said:


> Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
> (havent read all 16 pages)


The thrust can be diverted back towards the front of the plane, thus giving it a reverse.


----------



## SeanC

greggt007 said:


> Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
> (havent read all 16 pages)


I believe it's call a thrust redirector? Part of the engine cowling(?) moves behind the exhaust of the jet redirecting the thrust forward, usually used for slowing the plane down after landing.


----------



## SocratesJohnson

jkeegan said:


> Ben's on top of a cliff, and he just casually THROWS a walkie talkie to James?? Nice catch! Oops, dropped the walkie.. Game over..


Well, not to mention the fact that it still worked after jumping off the cliff and swimming to and from the boat.


----------



## Honora

NatasNJ said:


> Frank survived a submarine explosion? PLEASE!


The Island wasn't finished with him yet.


----------



## jgickler

I guess my questions are about the whole motivation for what happened throughout the show. 

If Jacob planned or manipulated the plane crash to find a replacement, why did he need a replacement? Did he foresee his death? And if he knew that he was going to die, why not do something to avoid his death or to kill his brother? It seems to me if he had killed, or had someone kill Ben Linus, Jacob would have been safe to live happily on the island. 

What drew the survivors back to the island after the 1st escape. If they had not returned, Ben doesn't kill Jacob, Locke's body never returns to the island, and there are still a couple candidates left on the island (Sawyer and Jin). So why would Jacob draw them back?

I guess my problem with the finale is that Jacob has been setup as the puppet-master of the whole series, and I don't see any reason that a puppet-master would do things this way, instead he would have picked an easier path.


----------



## d-dub

xuxa said:


> When did Hurley die? Why was he in the church?


He died when he died. We don't know when any of the people who got off the island died, either. Hugo could have been the island's protector for a year or a thousand, it didn't really matter.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

DavidTigerFan said:


> Also, what happened to all the people that went with locke before he killed everyone in the temple? ie the flight attendant and the children? Did they get stuck on the island?


Some, maybe all of them died in the mortar attack my Widmore's crew. I don't think we know for sure.


----------



## aindik

jgickler said:


> I guess my questions are about the whole motivation for what happened throughout the show.
> 
> If Jacob planned or manipulated the plane crash to find a replacement, why did he need a replacement? Did he foresee his death? And if he knew that he was going to die, why not do something to avoid his death or to kill his brother? It seems to me if he had killed, or had someone kill Ben Linus, Jacob would have been safe to live happily on the island.
> 
> What drew the survivors back to the island after the 1st escape. If they had not returned, Ben doesn't kill Jacob, Locke's body never returns to the island, and there are still a couple candidates left on the island (Sawyer and Jin). So why would Jacob draw them back?
> 
> I guess my problem with the finale is that Jacob has been setup as the puppet-master of the whole series, and I don't see any reason that a puppet-master would do things this way, instead he would have picked an easier path.


I think the answer to that is that Jacob just wasn't that bright. He made up the rules as he went along. Also, he kept looking for a replacement for the same reason his mother did - he wanted out.

As Ben said to Hurley, "maybe there's a better way."


----------



## JYoung

DavidTigerFan said:


> Things are moving so fast I think this got Lost. Anyone know what happened to them?


Desmond took them home or Hurley protected them.


----------



## DUSlider

Al I have to say now is...

What happened, happened.
It only ends once.
Let it go and move on.


----------



## Polcamilla

Peter000 said:


> So based on what they (Jack and the others) had seen Smokey do, and Jacob's warning, they were afraid of letting a super-powered serial killer who can't be killed loose on the world. Even if he had lost his powers, he's a totally malevolent being who doesn't care a bit about killing others to achieve what he wants to achieve.


Actually, I think Jacob and Lox's (Lox=smoked Locke) story is the one that left me the LEAST satisfied.

Sure Lox killed people, but from what we saw, no more than Jacob (or his "mom") who slaughtered whole colonies of people who settled on the Island repeatedly (Lox's original village, the Dharma initive, who knows how many else over the centuries). Lox killed people trying to leave. Why didn't they let him leave when he FIRST wanted to, before he killed anyone? What made him particularly more evil than Jacob? I never saw that and felt pretty sympathetic toward him all the way to the end. He didn't ever just mindlessly kill for the sake of killing, but Jacob did (ostensibly to 'protect the light' from people who were never seen to threaten it). What made Lox more evil/bad/dangerous than Jacob?


----------



## stalemate

Polcamilla said:


> What made Lox more evil/bad/dangerous than Jacob?


The dark colored swaddle blanket, I assume.


----------



## Polcamilla

Carlucci said:


> Some are speculating that the showing of the wreckage is proof-positive that they all died upon the initial crash. *This is wrong.* I clearly saw evidence of lean-to's, tarps, and other makeshift constructs adjacent to the plain wreckage.


Also, there were no bodies.


----------



## JYoung

Polcamilla said:


> Actually, I think Jacob and Lox's (Lox=smoked Locke) story is the one that left me the LEAST satisfied.
> 
> Sure Lox killed people, but from what we saw, no more than Jacob (or his "mom") who slaughtered whole colonies of people who settled on the Island repeatedly (Lox's original village, the Dharma initive, who knows how many else over the centuries). Lox killed people trying to leave. Why didn't they let him leave when he FIRST wanted to, before he killed anyone? What made him particularly more evil than Jacob? I never saw that and felt pretty sympathetic toward him all the way to the end. He didn't ever just mindlessly kill for the sake of killing, but Jacob did (ostensibly to 'protect the light' from people who were never seen to threaten it). What made Lox more evil/bad/dangerous than Jacob?


Sure Smokey was screwed over by Mother but I didn't see Jacob slit anyone's throat.


----------



## ronsch

Bryanmc said:


> But Jacob had Widmore bring Desmond back to the Island. Why do that if he didn't plan for him to do something?


But did Jacob have Widmore bring Desmond back to the island or was Widmore just lying about that and planning to use Desmond to accomplish his own ends?


----------



## Polcamilla

Turtleboy said:


> I agree. Interestingly, after the beginning of the first season, they really didn't show the crash debris that much at all, even when they returned to and were living on the beach.
> 
> Probably because it was too expensive of a set piece to set up and keep there.
> 
> I wonder if they shot that at the beginning of the series, or if they put it back together for the end.


See, I thought they set it up for the pilot and then had no compelling reason to tear it all down, so it was all still there and they went back and took a couple shots of the wreckage six years later. This isn't wildly uncommon with sets. If there's no immediate and pressing demand for the land for other uses stuff sometimes languishes for a long time. I know there were MASH sets up in Malibu for a long time after the show was done.


----------



## rlc1

LordKronos said:


> Well, I think others posted the way they did because, the explanation of the smoke monster as just given to you was a fairly important part of a very recent episode and thus should still be fresh in your mind. I'm pretty sure everyone here assumed you were well aware of the nature of the smoke monster, but that for some reason you were looking for even MORE details about his creation. Thus the jokes about knowing the molecular structure and midichlorians and such.


You are correct sir, I was looking for more. Call me selfish.


----------



## cheesesteak

I'm pretty sure I would have liked this final season more without the sideways universe.


----------



## DancnDude

So the way I understand it, the island was only underwater in the sideways world. As a "what if we had never gone to the island" sort of thing. We were led to believe that the real island would get to that point, but it never ended up happening. That had me confused but I think I get it now.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

The Lost beach sets were on a public beach, so I don't think they left them up.


----------



## bryhamm

DUSlider said:


> I thought the finale was excellent. To those that say they hated it and season 6 made seasons 1-5 irrelevant. Think about it this way.
> 
> *The writers always said it was about the people and their experiences and lives together, the island was secondary, the island was just sort of where it all happened and made things even more interesting.*
> 
> Season 6 doesn't happen or make sense without seasons 1-5. Those connections and relationships between the characters would have never been built and the ghosts/spirits at the end would have no reason to wait for each other.


While this is true, I guess it depends on which group you tend to fall into.

Group #1 -- people that liked Lost for the characters the most

Group #2 -- people that liked Lost for the island the most

If you are more in Group 1, you probably really liked the ending. If you are more in Group 2 (as I am), you probably were not thrilled with the ending. The "level" you were into each group will probably define the "level" of whether you enjoyed the ending. I am mainly in Group 2, but still consider part of me in Group 1. I was not upset by the ending, but disappointed.


----------



## dandrewk

For those of you who think the final shots of the wreckage are ambiguous: Did you see any bodies? If they wanted to imply that there were no survivors, we would see a corpse or two.

For those of you who think the arc of the show was made up as it went along: Remember the dog! Vincent was in the first scene to bring Jack to the beach to help with the crash victims. In the end, he comes to bring Jack to his final journey. The show's writers knew how it would end from the start.

BTW, the Vincent was a Retriever.


----------



## d-dub

madscientist said:


> What I don't understand is why people say there _wasn't_ a plan. Obviously not every minute, or even every minor plot point, was planned out: you can't do that in a TV series because actors leave or die or get really tall really fast or get busted for DUI, etc. You have to change things around: that's life. But the writers said they had a plan for the story. People who don't know anything about it at all say they didn't. I guess you just have to decide who you trust.


On top of that, the writers only create the wireframe of any character. It's the actor who creates the essence of the character. The writers learn about the nuances and personalities of the characters as the series unfurls, just like the viewers do. The flavor and direction of the plot(s) have to react to the growth of the characters, or the show will be flat.


----------



## Polcamilla

Bryanmc said:


> So, why not just tell Jack, "Desmond needs to pull out the plug in the light tunnel, that will make MIB mortal, you kill him, then Desmond puts the plug back." I know they didn't have a lot of time, but it wouldn't take that long. I just did it right then. No time at all.
> 
> Jack could have had a knife at the ready right behind MIB at the top of the waterfall and run him through. No need to figure it out while fighting MIB.


And then play light listening music (with commercials) for the remaining hour and a half of the series finale? 

(Jacob was, is, and forever shall be, an ass.)


----------



## aindik

d-dub said:


> On top of that, the writers only create the wireframe of any character. It's the actor who creates the essence of the character. The writers learn about the nuances and personalities of the characters as the series unfurls, just like the viewers do. The flavor and direction of the plot(s) have to react to the growth of the characters, or the show will be flat.


I agree. People ask why the Man in Black acts like John Locke when he's in that form, and acts like Christian Shepard when he's in that form. It's because of the actors. I don't think it was deliberate, like MIB had John Locke in him. I think that's just how Terry O'Quinn is.


----------



## T-Wolves

betts4 said:


> Okay, so who else was on the edge of their seat when FakeLocke walked up on Rose and Bernard's place and pulled the knife out. ...


I was much more nervous watching Ben Linus around Jack and Hurley near the light cave. I was sure he was either going to jump in and become the next MIB or else do something (like shoot Hurley before he could drink the water from the bottle Jack gave him) to make himself the next protector of the Island.



unicorngoddess said:


> And it makes me wonder...right before Juliet died, she said there was something important she had to tell Sawyer...but she dies before she can tell him. I always assumed she was going to tell him that their plan actually worked. ...


She told him (via Miles) that "it worked." Another head-fake by the writers. 



Mike Farrington said:


> I would hope Hurley served for more than just a couple of years before throwing in the towel. ...


There's your Lost spin-off right there -- Life on the Island with Hurley and Ben as protectors. I'm guessing a lot more golf and parties and a lot less killing and treachery.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...Which probably gives Jack the all-time record for shortest tenure of an Island Protector!


But maybe the most important. He "fixed" Jacob's mistake and now the Island will be "smoke-free" and a much less dangerous place.



DavidTigerFan said:


> Things are moving so fast I think this got Lost. Anyone know what happened to them?


Good question. I'm pretty sure Cindy did get off the Island, though, because I see her doing commercials on TV every once in a while. 

Kudos to Michael Giacchino -- the finale ended about 14 hours ago, and his music is still playing in my head. :up:


----------



## astrohip

Impossible not to smeek. I've started & discarded a dozen replies because they were stale before I could post 'em. Oh well . . .



Family said:


> Jack's change of clothes was irrelevant... it symbolized his change throughout this experience. What was real or what wasn't is open to interpretation, but that crash scene at the end was meant to tell us there were not survivors.


You are... incorrect. The island was real. Everything that happened to our survivors on the island was real. This could not have been made clearer by the end of the show.



Turtleboy said:


> This is the way I see the progression of the show.
> 
> Imagine you had to drive from New York to Los Angeles. But, you have a year to do it. You can take any route you want, stop as much as you want, do what you want, but in one year, you have to be in L.A.
> 
> That's how I see the show. The writers knew where they started, knew where they had to end up, but made up most of it as they went along on the way.


This is a good analogy, very similar to the way I see it. I have always felt DL/CC knew the story arc, starting mid-season one. They knew where they would end up, and have said for several years that they knew what the final scene would be (and "Jack's eye closing", what could be more appropriate!). But they still have to flesh out the story, and keep us entertained. It's quite possible, even likely, that the entire concept of alt-world flash-sideways wasn't thought up until they started writing for this year. It doesn't matter, it's just further enhancement of the story. The story has always been REDEMPTION. They told us that a few years ago, when someone asked them in an interview what LOST was about, and they answered, "Redemption'. We were just to unevolved to hear what they said. 



rlc1 said:


> As for the Man In Black, I would have liked to have found out exactly what would have happened to everyone if he had escaped from the island.<snip>


Just doesn't matter. nyny523 said it best (and I paraphrase poorly): It's like when someone you love, someone very close to you, dies. All the questions from before become meaningless. All that matters is what they left you with, the journey you shared, the memories you still hold. That's all you care about. The questions... just don't matter any more.



GDG76 said:


> And I'm fine with it.. the season finale was excellent and once I realized the mysteries I cared about didn't really matter, it was much more enjoyable.


----------



## jeff125va

dandrewk said:


> For those of you who think the final shots of the wreckage are ambiguous: Did you see any bodies? If they wanted to imply that there were no survivors, we would see a corpse or two.


While I don't think that there's any logical reason whatsoever to conclude that there were no survivors of the Oceanic 815 crash, the absence of any bodies in that shot doesn't prove anything.


----------



## SugarBowl

Bryanmc said:


> Large planes have reverse thrust, which can be used to actually back up a plane if cranked all the way up. Now, can it move a plane out of a jungle? Maybe it had some help from the Island.
> 
> I would have much preferred if Smokie pushed the plane into position earlier.


What heading did they have to fly on to escape? How were they able to just fly away?


----------



## BK89

This may be a smeek but what about MILES! They never explained anything about his special magical ability with dead people? This always kind of annoyed me that they just have him talking to dead people and never explained how or why. And he was doing this off island as well so its not like he came to the island and it gave him some pecial power (like Locke and his legs)? :down:


----------



## unicorngoddess

dandrewk said:


> For those of you who think the arc of the show was made up as it went along: Remember the dog! Vincent was in the first scene to bring Jack to the beach to help with the crash victims. In the end, he comes to bring Jack to his final journey. The show's writers knew how it would end from the start.


Well, it's easy for them to decide at this point that they want the closing scene to be like the opening scenes. That's not the problem that people are having...

The problem that people are having is what happened in between. The writers spent so much time developing extra characters, mysterious plot lines, etc. And then the fact that there was no resolution to those things makes people believe the writers never had an idea of where they were going with that stuff.


----------



## dandrewk

jeff125va said:


> While I don't think that there's any logical reason whatsoever to conclude that there were no survivors of the Oceanic 815 crash, the absence of any bodies in that shot doesn't prove anything.


The point is, if the writers HAD wanted to show there were no survivors, a body or two would have done the trick. But there were none... and come to think of it there were signs of survivors having lived on the beach (tents, etc.).


----------



## danterner

Still trying to decide between:

(1) The sideways/purgatory was Jack's dying vision, as he lay amongst the bamboo having saved his friends and the Island, finding resolution and making sense of all that had happened to him.

vs.

(2) Sideways/purgatory was the same real thing for every character on the show. Each joined it at various points, when they died, and then once they were all there they began the process of gathering up to move on.

I like both explanations. I think the one thing that tips me back toward #2 was the Sawyer/Juliette dialog about meeting up for coffee, which is what Juliette was muttering about in her dying moments on the island.



jeff125va said:


> I don't remember that. Was there anything specific that it was supposed to be a reference to? I could sort of see it being a hint about MIB/Locke.
> 
> I imagine that if you were telling a story that involves both different planes of existence and reincarnation, then you could certainly combine them.


I don't remember the specifics, but if I recall it was on the side of the van that Ben, Jack, and Sun drove to meet up with Eloise Hawking during the flash-forward season.


----------



## DancnDude

SugarBowl said:


> What heading did they have to fly on to escape? How were they able to just fly away?


My thought is that Jacob has the rule that it was hard to get off the island. Since Hurley was then leader, maybe that rule didn't exist anymore. Or Lapidus just remembered which heading they needed to use from before...he was their helicopter pilot to the tanker.


----------



## betts4

aindik said:


> I think the answer to that is that Jacob just wasn't that bright. He made up the rules as he went along. Also, he kept looking for a replacement for the same reason his mother did - he wanted out.
> 
> As Ben said to Hurley, "maybe there's a better way."


Jacob and the other boy were raised by a lone woman and not allowed much in the way of social interaction. His brother told him that he made up the rules as he went along, so Jacob figured he could do that too.



Polcamilla said:


> (Jacob was, is, and forever shall be, an ass.)


This.

I never felt good about him since the first episode when they showed him connecting with the characters when they were kids.


----------



## aindik

BK89 said:


> This may be a smeek but what about MILES! They never explained anything about his special magical ability with dead people? This always kind of annoyed me that they just have him talking to dead people and never explained how or why. And he was doing this off island as well so its not like he came to the island and it gave him some pecial power (like Locke and his legs)? :down:


Miles was conceived on the island.


----------



## betts4

The end shots of the plane wreckage could have been filmed waaaaay back in season one and just saved. Maybe without them even knowing why........


----------



## dilorc

dandrewk said:


> For those of you who think the final shots of the wreckage are ambiguous: Did you see any bodies? If they wanted to imply that there were no survivors, we would see a corpse or two.
> 
> For those of you who think the arc of the show was made up as it went along: Remember the dog! Vincent was in the first scene to bring Jack to the beach to help with the crash victims. In the end, he comes to bring Jack to his final journey. The show's writers knew how it would end from the start.
> 
> BTW, the Vincent was a Retriever.


This kind of thinking drives me nuts. The dog was in the first and last scenes so the writers had this arc all along? No, all it means is that they watched the first episode again and decided to "bookend" a scene.

I don't mean to sound too harsh...overall I liked the finale. But I do think they winged a bunch if things here and there....like the numbers. I think they wanted the numbers to be a little distraction or a cool mystery and then they took on a life of their own, so they explained them away outside of the TV show.


----------



## DancnDude

danterner said:


> Still trying to decide between:
> 
> (1) The sideways/purgatory was Jack's dying vision, as he lay amongst the bamboo having saved his friends and the Island, find resolution and making sense of all that had happened to him.
> 
> vs.
> 
> (2) Sideways/purgatory was the same real thing for every character on the show. Each joined it at various points, when they died, and then once they were all there they began the process of gathering up to move on.
> 
> I like both explanations. I think the one thing that tips me back toward #2 was the Sawyer/Juliette dialog about meeting up for coffee, which is what Juliette was muttering about in her dying moments on the island.


I agree that it could be both. They both seem to make sense to me as well. In some ways I like a combination of both. #1 because if this is just Jack's vision then the people there make sense. If it's everybody's then there are sure to be other unknown people that would need to join them. I'm sure Hurley met other influential people in his life after Jack left and they would be there as well.


----------



## TiMo Tim

SugarBowl said:


> What heading did they have to fly on to escape? How were they able to just fly away?


Did the plane take off while the island was "unplugged"? Maybe the island was "visible" during this time.



DancnDude said:


> I have to say that last night I thought it was both an amazing episode and I couldn't help to be a little let down. Then after giving it some time and reading stuff here, the ending is growing on me. It seems like the more you think about it, the more satisfying it becomes. At least for me.


Ditto for me.


----------



## atrac

Peter000 said:


> That particular question was answered by Ben. He said it was "Metaphorical." It wasn't really a "magic box." Obviously they brought Locke's father to the island on the sub.


Thank you for that! I do recall that now but completely forgot about that when I posted my question. So much to take in, some of it got lost in my memory.


----------



## aindik

For people considering whether the sideways was Jack's dying vision, are you including the entire sideways for the entire season, including parts of the sideways that had nothing to do with Jack? Seems weird for Jack to envision Hurley going on a date with Libby on the beach and then Hurley "remembering"? Or anyone else "remembering," or Hurley at a charity dinner, or Charlie and Desmond under water, or in a bar, or Sawyer going out on a a date with Charlotte, or anything like that.


----------



## jeff125va

aindik said:


> I agree. People ask why the Man in Black acts like John Locke when he's in that form, and acts like Christian Shepard when he's in that form. It's because of the actors. I don't think it was deliberate, like MIB had John Locke in him. I think that's just how Terry O'Quinn is.


I may be among the "people" you refer to, but my point was somewhat different. I always thought that there were inconsistencies in how he acted like the people whose forms he took. He more or less identified himself as Christian when he looked like him, but his demeanor and personality were much different. But he didn't really identify himself as Locke, but did have the same demeanor and personality. (He was somewhat deceptive early on in order to gain Ben's trust and carry out his plan to kill Jacob, but I don't believe he ever actually claimed to be Locke. And throughout this season he definitely stopped all pretense of _being_ Locke.)

I would not really expect those two actors to both try to take on a third personality, namely that of MIB's original bodily existence, while he was in the form of Christian and Locke.


----------



## orangeboy

JYoung said:


> Sure Smokey was screwed over by Mother but I didn't see Jacob slit anyone's throat.


No, he just threw his own brother down the waterfall to a "fate worse than death"...


----------



## Bryanmc

ronsch said:


> But did Jacob have Widmore bring Desmond back to the island or was Widmore just lying about that and planning to use Desmond to accomplish his own ends?


Well Jacob knew Widmore and his sub were coming (the Lighthouse episode) so that coupled with Widmore's statement seem to indicate that Jacob thought it important for them to be there and knew what they were doing.

Even if Widmore was making it up and using Desmond for his own gain, Jacob knew they were coming and apparently didn't have an issue with it.


----------



## Bernie

SocratesJohnson said:


> If this is so, why would Kate create another life in which she was a fugitive? And why would Sayid create another life where he was a killer and couldn't be with Nadia?


I think it's because those were their life's demons, the demons they were trying to work out while in purgatory. Depending on your beliefs, when you die the soul may still have unfinished business. Closure eventually came for all of these tortured souls when they "the people who meant the most to them in life" were finally together in death. They are now at peace and able to "cross over" to heaven.


----------



## Polcamilla

JYoung said:


> Sure Smokey was screwed over by Mother but I didn't see Jacob slit anyone's throat.


Yeah, because most of Jacob's killing was done off-screen and he typically (in the cases we saw) used flunkies to do it. Lox had no flunkies.

I don't think the MANNER of killing is as significant as the motive and Jacob's motives seemed much worse to me than Lox's.


----------



## TheDewAddict

The more I think about it, my favorite moments from the different seasons of Lost were all about the characters, i.e. Desmond & Penny's reunion. None of my favorite moments were about the mythology. I'm glad the show wrapped up on a character-driven note, and not a mythology-driven one. I was afraid that the final shows would almost end up being a Matrix "Neo talks to the Architect for 15 minutes" type deal that would not be entertaining, but would provide answers. I'm glad they went down this route instead.


----------



## astrohip

cheesesteak said:


> I think Ben was afraid God would punch him in the face 4 or 5 times like everybody else on the show.


Great line!



wombat94 said:


> First Post from a lurker...
> 
> Hi all... I've been reading the TC boards and the Lost threads since the beginning, I just don't appear to have ever posted re: Lost before (looking at my posts - I can't really believe it, but that's what I see).<snip>
> 
> A+ on the finale, the final season in retrospect and the series as a whole.


Outstanding first LOST post. Well said. :up:



wouldworker said:


> But I'm still unsatisfied because I _couldn't_ be satisfied - I just didn't care about the characters. No ending could have satisfied me. It's just a shame that I couldn't have figured that out years ago.


I'm just astounded you would invest 120 hours in a show where you don't care about the characters.:down: It is a shame, because that's what it was all about.

When one reads a great book, a "best 2 or 3 books I've ever read" kinda book, when you are finished, it's often with mixed emotions. You are moved that fictional characters could mean so much to you, and that you actually care about what happens to them. After all, they're just make-believe. And yet there is a genuine sadness you feel, knowing that it's over. That the people you have come to know & love, that you will never be with them again. It's where the word bittersweet comes from.

That's LOST to me.


----------



## orangeboy

danterner said:


> Still trying to decide between:
> 
> (1) The sideways/purgatory was Jack's dying vision, as he lay amongst the bamboo having saved his friends and the Island, find resolution and making sense of all that had happened to him.
> 
> vs.
> 
> (2) Sideways/purgatory was the same real thing for every character on the show. Each joined it at various points, when they died, and then once they were all there they began the process of gathering up to move on.
> 
> I like both explanations. I think the one thing that tips me back toward #2 was the Sawyer/Juliette dialog about meeting up for coffee, which is what Juliette was muttering about in her dying moments on the island.


I like the latter. Why would Jack care about the specifics of the Losties in the afterlife, like Jin being locked in the cooler to have Sayid discover him, or Kate going to the mechanic to get the handcuffs removed? That's a lot for one dying man's vision (not that I can speak from experience, or anything...)


----------



## d-dub

T-Wolves said:


> That said, I do have _some _disappointment about how much of the show ended up being irrelevant or misleading.


Kind of like real life, eh?


----------



## Deja-vue

Can anyone tell me what was sooo special about Claire's Baby?


----------



## danterner

aindik said:


> For people considering whether the sideways was Jack's dying vision, are you including the entire sideways for the entire season, including parts of the sideways that had nothing to do with Jack? Seems weird for Jack to envision Hurley going on a date with Libby on the beach and then Hurley "remembering"? Or anyone else "remembering," or Hurley at a charity dinner, or Charlie and Desmond under water, or in a bar, or Sawyer going out on a a date with Charlotte, or anything like that.


How about this? -- Last night's episode (the sideways parts of it, I mean) was Jack's dying vision. The prior sideways episodes this season, that had nothing to do with Jack, were the visions/purgatories of that episode's focus character.


----------



## MickeS

BK89 said:


> This may be a smeek but what about MILES! They never explained anything about his special magical ability with dead people? This always kind of annoyed me that they just have him talking to dead people and never explained how or why. And he was doing this off island as well so its not like he came to the island and it gave him some pecial power (like Locke and his legs)? :down:


That's a good point. I always hated that aspect of the show anyway (Miles talking to the dead) - it felt so completely out of place. Now with the finale behind us, and the themes of it, it seems even worse that they never had any real payoff for that character.


----------



## unicorngoddess

Deja-vue said:


> Can anyone tell me what was sooo special about Claire's Baby?


I'm not sure there was ever suppose to be anything special about him...


----------



## aindik

danterner said:


> How about this? -- Last night's episode was Jack's dying vision. The prior sideways episodes this season, that had nothing to do with Jack, were the visions/purgatories of that episode's focus character.


I like that better, but I'm still not sold. Was it part of Jack's dying vision to see Ben not quite make it, or to see Eloise tell Desmond not to take her son yet?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

danterner said:


> Still trying to decide between:
> 
> (1) The sideways/purgatory was Jack's dying vision, as he lay amongst the bamboo having saved his friends and the Island, finding resolution and making sense of all that had happened to him.
> 
> vs.
> 
> (2) Sideways/purgatory was the same real thing for every character on the show. Each joined it at various points, when they died, and then once they were all there they began the process of gathering up to move on.
> 
> I like both explanations. I think the one thing that tips me back toward #2 was the Sawyer/Juliette dialog about meeting up for coffee, which is what Juliette was muttering about in her dying moments on the island.





aindik said:


> For people considering whether the sideways was Jack's dying vision, are you including the entire sideways for the entire season, including parts of the sideways that had nothing to do with Jack? Seems weird for Jack to envision Hurley going on a date with Libby on the beach and then Hurley "remembering"? Or anyone else "remembering," or Hurley at a charity dinner, or Charlie and Desmond under water, or in a bar, or Sawyer going out on a a date with Charlotte, or anything like that.


Yeah, it would be the whole Sidewayverse. Which doesn't make much sense, but then again it being a purgatory doesn't make much sense either.

I think we just have to accept that it doesn't make much sense. It is what it is. Whatever _that _is.


----------



## aaronwt

betts4 said:


> The end shots of the plane wreckage could have been filmed waaaaay back in season one and just saved. Maybe without them even knowing why........


They had to have been. Since the fake wreckage was removed a long time ago from that beach in Hawaii.


----------



## vman

On purgatory - Christian says to Jack - "this is the place that you all made together so that you could find one another." I don't think this is Jack's dying vision, or Hurley, Jack or anyone "made" it - they all made it together. 

Also, I think they all saw themselves as they envisioned their lives without Jacob's interference, and theoretically happier - but there was still something missing from that world they only discovered when together. I also think their own conceptions of themselves played into it - Sayid still did not think himself worthy, which is why he was not with Nadia.


----------



## MickeS

aindik said:


> I like that better, but I'm still not sold. Was it part of Jack's dying vision to see Ben not quite make it, or to see Eloise tell Desmond not to take her son yet?


I see it as taking place in a different dimensional plane. I don't think it was a dying vision at all. Why would it be?


----------



## sakura panda

I thought the wreckage at the end were shots of the SETS. The stage that where Lost first started and where so many of the scenes were shot. One of those end-of-series, never going to see this set again for any show, kind of shots. 

I didn't think it had anything to do with the story or the island, just that is was the actual set, vacant and sad with no actors or cameras around anymore.


----------



## MickeS

vman said:


> On purgatory - Christian says to Jack - "this is the place that you all made together so that you could find one another." I don't think this is Jack's dying vision, or Hurley, Jack or anyone "made" it - they all made it together.
> 
> Also, I think they all saw themselves as they envisioned their lives without Jacob's interference, and theoretically happier - but there was still something missing from that world they only discovered when together. I also think their own conceptions of themselves played into it - Sayid still did not think himself worthy, which is why he was not with Nadia.


Or this. It was a different existence, created by their common bond.


----------



## d-dub

JMikeD said:


> It wasnt purgatory. It doesn't fit the theological definition and the writers have said that it wasn't.


I interpreted it more as "limbo" than "purgatory." They were there until each person's unfinished business was resolved, then they were free to move on. Based on the significance the island experiences had on these people, they all needed to meet up that one last time, make their apologies, and say that final "good bye."


----------



## MickeS

sakura panda said:


> I thought the wreckage at the end were shots of the SETS. The stage that where Lost first started and where so many of the scenes were shot. One of those end-of-series, never going to see this set again for any show, kind of shots.
> 
> I didn't think it had anything to do with the story or the island, just that is was the actual set, vacant and sad with no actors or cameras around anymore.


That's what I assumed too.


----------



## JYoung

Polcamilla said:


> Yeah, because most of Jacob's killing was done off-screen and he typically (in the cases we saw) used flunkies to do it. Lox had no flunkies.
> 
> I don't think the MANNER of killing is as significant as the motive and Jacob's motives seemed much worse to me than Lox's.


Again, whom did Jacob actually kill?
(Ok, other than his brother)
We never saw him kill anyone nor did we see him order the deaths of anyone.

On the other hand, Fake Locke slit Zoe's throat because he felt she was useless.


----------



## wombat94

aindik said:


> For people considering whether the sideways was Jack's dying vision, are you including the entire sideways for the entire season, including parts of the sideways that had nothing to do with Jack? Seems weird for Jack to envision Hurley going on a date with Libby on the beach and then Hurley "remembering"? Or anyone else "remembering," or Hurley at a charity dinner, or Charlie and Desmond under water, or in a bar, or Sawyer going out on a a date with Charlotte, or anything like that.


It's not so much "Jack's dying vision" as it is "Jack limbo universe" in my opinion. I don't think that Jack is aware of everything that is going on in the sideways world, but what we are seeing is Jack's "reality" of the world where he is in limbo.

Each of the people in the sideways world is "real" in the sense that they are living there, they are carrying on with their lives in a similar (if not exactly the same) way to what they might have if they had never crashed on the island. As I said elsewhere, I think the "remembering" is each of the other folks from the island being "called" into Jack's limbo in order to help him finally make the transition and move on to his afterlife once he had arrived at the point where he was ready.


----------



## wouldworker

astrohip said:


> wouldworker said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I'm still unsatisfied because I couldn't be satisfied - I just didn't care about the characters. No ending could have satisfied me. It's just a shame that I couldn't have figured that out years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just astounded you would invest 120 hours in a show where you don't care about the characters.:down: It is a shame, because that's what it was all about.
Click to expand...

People keep saying that it was about the characters and not about the mystery, but it wasn't that clear. It sure as hell seemed to be about the characters AND the mystery. I didn't listen to podcasts or read anything that the show's creators wrote or said. I watched the show. It had the elements of a mystery. I watched for three seasons waiting for some resolution but there was just more mystery. I kept watching because I wanted to see how it ended even though I didn't really care about the characters and I knew the resolution wouldn't make sense. It wasn't an investment. I was watching TV. I get a "thumbs down" for watching a show you claim was the "best six-year ride" of your life (which I think is terribly sad for you, by the way)?


----------



## vman

The more I absorb it, the more I like it. I agree with what Rob said earlier - intellectually I was disappointed, but emotionally it was totally amazing. 

Clearly they just abandoned lots of plot points, or glossed over them when they were inconvenient (in addition to all those others have mentioned, my personal pet peeve is if dead is dead, how did Sayid return from the dead this season?). The plot writing across the continuum of the story (all of seasons 1-6) was terribly disjointed and wasn't particularly well told.

But while the macro was disappointing, the micro was truly wonderful. The writing in so many specific episodes was absolutely amazing. I think back to so many Lost "moments" - generally these were character-specific, and self-contained. Desmond in The Constant. Charlie sacrificing himself in Through the Looking Glass. Locke in Walkabout. 

Last night's finale was the same. Some disappointment with the large number of story loose ends unresolved, but just incredibly moved by the emotional impact of the episode. Seeing the scenes where the characters all "remember" their pasts in the flash sideways was just so moving. 

It will be interesting - my wife never watched the show, but is very interested in watching it now. Our summer "project" is to watch from the beginning. I am still excited for this, and it will be interesting to see things again from the start, but knowing that much of the actual story elements aren't really relevant to the ending will be interesting, and I wonder if I should warn her to focus more on characters than story...


----------



## TriBruin

dilorc said:


> This kind of thinking drives me nuts. The dog was in the first and last scenes so the writers had this arc all along? No, all it means is that they watched the first episode again and decided to "bookend" a scene.
> 
> I don't mean to sound too harsh...overall I liked the finale. But I do think they winged a bunch if things here and there....like the numbers. I think they wanted the numbers to be a little distraction or a cool mystery and then they took on a life of their own, so they explained them away outside of the TV show.


I don't think anyone believes that EVERY minute of the entire series was planned out. There are huge story lines and characters that were dropped for one reason or another (Eko - actor wants to leave, Nikki & Pablo - Never listen to viewers who want to see more of "background" characters").

But I am amazed people still believe that the producers somehow winged it for 6 seasons. Certainly there was a lot of filler, but guess what, the Harry Potter series had tons of filler (Quiddich anyone?) But does that mean that JK Rowling just winged it. No, it is part of the story process.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

jkeegan said:


> If you unplug it, and then you plug it back in again, the candy just drops right down.
> 
> Is that right?
> 
> Yea, and it's technically legal.
> 
> Brilliant.





mostman said:


> I don't get the hate. You can't look at the small details and say things like, "What about the time the sand was blue?! Huh?! What say you?!"
> 
> it doesn't matter. The show was about bigger things. It was about the journey. The whole last season was about the island finding a new protector and the Losties finding themselves after death. Seriously. Anything else was window dressing.
> 
> Lost. A bunch of broken people crash on an island. They are not the first to end up there. The island has a seriously odd mythology. There is a protector on the island, keeping humans from destroying it. There is also a monster. The bunch of people join together to fix eachother and survive. The island screws with them every chance it gets. Its magic. They have many adventures. They create such a bond, that they must enter Heaven as a group. The End.





Peter000 said:


> Pretty much this. Lost was Jack's story more than any others.
> 
> I'm not wild about the sideways alternate reality being an afterlife. But it pretty much makes sense the way it turned out, and I can live with it. Otherwise a perfect series finale.
> 
> The series as a whole? Well, it was first and foremost about the spiritual journey of the people who survived the 815 crash. They arrived to the island with demons either spiritual or physical or both, and ended up moving on with a modicum of peace. Some had to work it out after they died. Some, like Jack, worked it out through their Journey on the island.
> 
> The island mythos was a means to that journey. We just saw snatches of the island's long history. These were the parts that were important to tell the 815ers stories. For example, the statue's history just isn't important to tell Hurley's story. The origin of the food drops aren't important to James' getting revenge on the man that conned his parents and ruined his life.
> 
> In the end, the characters didn't know any more than we did. It didn't really matter to Jack what exactly the Island's light was or how it worked, just that it DID have to be protected, and the MIB was tied to it somehow, and the key to defeating him lie there.
> 
> That's not to say some more info about the island mythos wouldn't be fun and appreciated. But i don't feel a huge need to know where Jacob and MIB's mom came from (either one of them). Or any other of the big unanswered questions. They're just moot to the story that was told.
> 
> I feel part loss, part relief, part joy that this series has come to an end. It was an emotional show to watch, and often hard to see what the characters were going through. But I'm glad that it ended on it's own terms, and the forces behind the series got to tell the story they wanted to tell, and how they wanted to tell it, to an appreciative audience. It's not a series that was "phoned in." It was profoundly evident that great care was taken by everyone involved to make it the best it could possibly be. And as a fan, I really appreciate that.





Peter000 said:


> That's if you regard the series as a whole as a story about the island. It wasn't.
> 
> As mentioned numerous times it was a story about Jack and the other castaways. The Island stuff was only there to further their story, not the other way around.





Turtleboy said:


> The universe didn't end. When each person died, they became part of the flash sideways, where time has no meaning, so they can all start it at the same time.
> 
> Everything not on the flash sideways was real.





Turtleboy said:


> *THEY AREN'T LIVING!!!!*
> 
> They did 5, 10, 30 or maybe in Hurley's case 1,000 years later.
> 
> Time has not meaning there. They all died at different times, but in that place, went back to the reset point.
> 
> And once they figured out where they were and what happened, they had memories of their *entire life.*
> 
> Kate says to Jack, "I missed you so much." She may have lived for another 50 years.
> 
> Hurley says to Ben, "You were a great #2," and he wasn't calling him a piece of sh-t. Ben says to Hurley, "You were a great #1." They both remembered their time protecting the Island.
> 
> So again. Each person -- dead. Each person's time of death -- varies.
> 
> I don't know what else to say.





mostman said:


> We are supposed to assume that the flash sideways stuff happens WAY in the future. The timing of Jacks death to his coming around to being dead was just a stylized way to do it.
> 
> The point was that Jack was the man of science. The guy who doesn't believe. The guy who ended up sacrificing himself on a belief. Watch the scene where it appears, briefly, that plugging the stone back in didn't do anything. He had come full circle....was it justified....
> 
> Jack coming around last was brilliant. He finally gave in and trusted faith. Both in life, and death.





mostman said:


> You have it because it's the absolute end of the story.
> 
> Put it this way. What if it ended with everyone leaving the island? Boo. What about the island just blowing up and everyone biting the dust at the same time? Also bad.
> 
> With this ending, we know where it all ultimately ends up. We watched the Losties meet. We watched them bond and grow together. We even watched some of them die. In the end, we watched them make their final journey together. It completes the arc.





wombat94 said:


> First Post from a lurker...
> 
> Hi all... I've been reading the TC boards and the Lost threads since the beginning, I just don't appear to have ever posted re: Lost before (looking at my posts - I can't really believe it, but that's what I see).
> 
> I went to sleep last night after JKL not sure what I felt about the finale, but when I woke up, JK's theory really brought me to my own underastanding.
> 
> I have read some of this thread, but not all, but here is my understanding of what went on in these 6 seasons.
> 
> 1. Oceanic 815 really did crash on the Island... all of the on-island, and 3 years of off-island stuff really did happen. Jack really did take over from Jacob, and with Desmond's (and Kate's) help he did defeat Smokey and put the plug back in to save the island. All of that was real.
> 
> 2. This season's flash sideways was taking place in some sort of limbo that Jack inhabited until he was ready to move on to his place in the afterlife. BUT what we are seeing in the flash sideways is Jack's limbo. Just as there is no real concept of time in the FSW, there's no one reality in the FSW - it is what each of them makes of it.
> 
> 3. I believe that most of the other losties we see in the Flash sideways have already moved on in their own realities... some probably did so very quickly and easily in their lives (Sun and Jin I believe probably moved on together very easily since they were reunited at their deaths and were together). But others may have been stuck for a long time in their own limbo after their death.
> 
> 4. Desmond is the "Constant" and he still retains a certain ability to transcend space/time throughout all of this. Whatever Desmond is, it is beyond the rest of the people. But at the end of the real island timeline that we've seen, Desmond is going to live, and Hurley/Ben send him back home to be with Penny/little Charlie. He lives the rest of his natural life out and then once in the afterlife still has a role as a catalyst... helping to facilitate the moving on by other people once they are ready.
> 
> 5. I think that the "remembering" each of our familiar people experiences is their eternal "soul", or "essence" for lack of a better term, being brought fully conscious into Jack's limbo - because it is necessary for Jack to deal with his own experience in order to move on and through Desmond's actions, they are made aware that Jack is approaching the time when he will be ready - they are there to help him once he is ready.
> 
> 6. I think David doesn't really exist and never did exist. He's a construct of Jack's mind - a way for Jack to work through the issues with his father that he never could work through in life. The interactions we saw between Jack and David this season were critical to Jack finally being able to come to terms with his own feelings about his relationship with his father - and lay them to rest. At that point, Jack was ready to move on from his limbo.
> 
> 7. We don't know how long this could have taken Jack in terms of earthly timeline - it may have been a year, 10 years or a thousand years. As implied by the Hurley/Ben interaction outside of the church it was at least quite a while since Hugo was a good leader in the past tense. Obviously from Kate's reaction, it has taken quite a while for Jack to be ready.
> 
> 8. This is Jack's moving on experience... but in some way it is a reality that is still shared. Once Ben was brought into this reality, he could choose to stay for a while there - in order to really get to know Danielle and spend time with Alex. Similarly, Eloise and Daniel can stay there (along with Charlotte) - Daniel may not be ready to move on until something else happens.
> 
> So that's the big mythology related things and to me, it sums up for me the whole series in an emotionally satisfying way. From an intellectual standpoint, there are parts of it that won't ever work but it is fiction/fantasy and it is faith related, so I'm okay with that.
> 
> As for some of the "mysteries" of the island, there were a few realizations that I came to last night.
> 
> 1. Jacob was a grade-A jerk. Yes he had this thrust upon him, and he claimed to want to give each of them a choice, but some choice and method he had, huh?
> 
> 2. I should have really realized this, back in Ab Aeterno, but with one little reference to Captain Hanso of the Black Rock, in retrospect, that answered all the questions for me satisfactorily about the Dharma Initiative. It was financed by the Hanso foundation - a cover organization for Jacob to keep funnelling potential replacement candidates to the island. To me it even explains the airdrops of supplies in 2004/2005 from the Dharma initiative - Jacob calls for supplies when he needs them in order to help new arrivals on the island.
> 
> 3. Jacob made up the rules of the game. Clearly the guardian of the light has a lot of sway in the setting of the rules. Jacob set them as he saw fit - but Hugo could change them.
> 
> I've got a lot more, but this is way longer than I originally intended.
> 
> The more I think about it, the more satisfied I am with the resolution. It's not Six Feet Under finale, but that wouldn't ring true for Lost.
> 
> A+ on the finale, the final season in retrospect and the series as a whole.


Bravo to these posts - they sum up my take on it nicely. The only thing I'll add is what I posted late last night (at about 2 am after watching JKL and ruminating for a while) in response to a friend's Facebook note analyzing the finale:

The island happened. All of it. All of the time travel, Smokey, Dharma, Jacob, everything.

The sideways "reality" was not that at all. It was as Christian said, a construct created by the minds/souls of the Losties that experienced the most important moments of their lives on the island, in the events depicted on the show. Unconsciously or subconsciously, or maybe due to the powers that Jack and Hurley had as "Island Protectors" they created this construct, kind of like The Matrix in my mind, to wait for each other in a kind of purgatory, so that they could all move on to the next stage (Heaven ? - whatever the bright light was at the end when Christian opened the church door) together.

In this Sideways/Purgatory, while they waited for everyone to "arrive", they "lived" a life a little bit better than the one they had before they arrived on the island. Not perfect, just a little bit better. Again, like The Matrix.


----------



## 3D

danterner said:


> Still trying to decide between:
> 
> (1) The sideways/purgatory was Jack's dying vision, as he lay amongst the bamboo having saved his friends and the Island, finding resolution and making sense of all that had happened to him.
> 
> vs.
> 
> (2) Sideways/purgatory was the same real thing for every character on the show. Each joined it at various points, when they died, and then once they were all there they began the process of gathering up to move on.
> 
> I like both explanations. I think the one thing that tips me back toward #2 was the Sawyer/Juliette dialog about meeting up for coffee, which is what Juliette was muttering about in her dying moments on the island. IMG]http://img2.pict.com/06/7c/6f/3549181/0/320/vlcsnap553994.jpg[/IMG]


I think it has to be number 2, but, as has been said by others, don't think when they died actually matters. I discount number one because of this...



vman said:


> On purgatory - Christian says to Jack - "this is the place that you all made together so that you could find one another." I don't think this is Jack's dying vision, or Hurley, Jack or anyone "made" it - they all made it together.
> 
> Also, I think they all saw themselves as they envisioned their lives without Jacob's interference, and theoretically happier - but there was still something missing from that world they only discovered when together. I also think their own conceptions of themselves played into it - Sayid still did not think himself worthy, which is why he was not with Nadia.


Also, as mentioned by someone else, it wouldn't make sense for Jack to know, for instance, that Hurley thought Ben made a great number two, or that Cooper was both the man Sawyer was looking for as well as Locke's father.

Rather than how they saw themselves without Jacob's interference, I think the purgatory life represented the life they were capable of leading based upon what they learned in their lives. I was one of those who thought all season that sideways world was an epilogue and that would result by the events that had yet to unfold on the island. This was actually pretty close to what happened (though missing the purgatory angle was certainly significant).

A couple of miscellaneous points:

1) Put me in the camp as loving the finale and the entire six season run as a whole. I think the writers gave us enough information about what was going on on the island to reasonably draw our own conclusions as to most of the tings that were never answered. The only thing that bothered me, and I knew it would never be addressed, is the total abandonment of the Walt storyline, which was such a huge part of season one. This is the one thing that keeps me from being completely convinced that the overall story arc was planned out from the beginning. Once the time travel concept was introduced, I figured that they would at least have a way of using the actor again despite his growth. Even a quick explanation from Ben or Jacob as to why Walt was worth all the trouble would have been satisfying. In the grand scheme of things, it's a minor quibble, but it's the one missing piece that I just can't reconcile.

2) I can't say for sure without rewatching season six in its entirety, but from the little we saw of Rose and Bernard in the sideways world, I suspect that they were the first ones to remember everything. I don't think that everyone in sideways world actually lived a full "fake" life until they could all be brought together. Rather, I think the opening scene of this season aboard the plane was the first moment in purgatory for all of the characters, who simply had memories of their different life. I am convinced that Rose and Bernard, from moment one, had all of their memories in tact.

3) We can now reconcile Cooper in the sideways world. He was a great dad to Locke, but still the man Sawyer was looking to get revenge on, because Sawyer's and Locke's fake lives were based on their own memories and real life journeys. Cooper was whatever they needed him to be.


----------



## SocratesJohnson

I really like that Vincent showed up at the end and lay with Jack so he wouldn't be dying totally alone, given the sacrifice he just made.


----------



## Polcamilla

TriBruin said:


> Nikki & Pablo - Never listen to viewers who want to see more of "background" characters".


This is still my absolute favorite episode of Lost.


----------



## jeff125va

I don't rule out that the wreckage shots during the credits could possibly have been just something to show instead of a blank screen, like a final farewell or whatever. But I'm still thinking it could have been the Ajira flight. I certainly haven't seen anything conclusive that it isn't.

Another reason I think so is that we learned the fates of just about every major character, which for the most part was how they died. The few exceptions would be Desmond and Penny, Rose and Bernard, and Hurley and Ben. The last 4 of those we have a pretty good general idea about - the options are pretty limited with them being confined to the island.

So it almost seems out of place that they would have the ones who were on the plane, particularly MAJOR characters Kate, Sawyer, and Claire, presumably make it back home and have us wonder how they lived out the rest of their lives. Especially given that Jack was reunited with Kate, and Sawyer with Juliet. That would seem to imply that they spent the rest of their lives alone, and given the prior history between Kate and Sawyer that would be even more unlikely, as if any of those three would have a hard time finding a date.


----------



## aindik

jeff125va said:


> I don't rule out that the wreckage shots during the credits could possibly have been just something to show instead of a blank screen, like a final farewell or whatever. But I'm still thinking it could have been the Ajira flight. I certainly haven't seen anything conclusive that it isn't.
> 
> Another reason I think so is that we learned the fates of just about every major character, which for the most part was how they died. The few exceptions would be Desmond and Penny, Rose and Bernard, and Hurley and Ben. The last 4 of those we have a pretty good general idea about - the options are pretty limited with them being confined to the island.
> 
> So it almost seems out of place that they would have the ones who were on the plane, particularly MAJOR characters Kate, Sawyer, and Claire, presumably make it back home and have us wonder how they lived out the rest of their lives. Especially given that Jack was reunited with Kate, and Sawyer with Juliet. That would seem to imply that they spent the rest of their lives alone, and given the prior history between Kate and Sawyer that would be even more unlikely, as if any of those three would have a hard time finding a date.


I don't know about Sawyer, but I imagine Kate spent the rest of her life with Claire and Aaron.


----------



## MickeS

SocratesJohnson said:


> I really like that Vincent showed up at the end and lay with Jack so he wouldn't be dying totally alone, given the sacrifice he just made.


When I watched that scene, I was crying like a baby by that point, and my dog came up and looked at me and then laid down by my feet... that just made me bawl even more.


----------



## Steveknj

astrohip said:


> Great line!
> 
> Outstanding first LOST post. Well said. :up:
> 
> I'm just astounded you would invest 120 hours in a show where you don't care about the characters.:down: It is a shame, because that's what it was all about.
> 
> *When one reads a great book, a "best 2 or 3 books I've ever read" kinda book, when you are finished, it's often with mixed emotions. You are moved that fictional characters could mean so much to you, and that you actually care about what happens to them. After all, they're just make-believe. And yet there is a genuine sadness you feel, knowing that it's over. That the people you have come to know & love, that you will never be with them again. It's where the word bittersweet comes from.
> 
> That's LOST to me.*


That is exactly my emotions today. I know they are fictional characters, but I feel loss not following the stories of Jack and Kate and Locke and Sawyer, et al. I feel there is so much more they could tell, but knowing they are dead, it gives you some sense of closure with these folks. And that is helpful. I think as time goes by, we will remember the characters a lot more than we will remember the particulars about the island and it's mysteries. That's the magic of this show.

So, who's going to start watching from the beginning this summer and parse out clues to the ending? I am going to try, depending on how busy my summer gets.


----------



## MickeS

jeff125va said:


> Another reason I think so is that we learned the fates of just about every major character, which for the most part was how they died. The few exceptions would be Desmond and Penny, Rose and Bernard, and Hurley and Ben. *The last 4 of those we have a pretty good general idea about - the options are pretty limited with them being confined to the island.*


I'm pretty sure Hurley would let anyone leave that wanted to, so I doubt they were confined to the island. That said, I'm also pretty sure Rose & Bernard chose to stay though (considering the island healed her cancer).


----------



## bryhamm

betts4 said:


> I loved Frank handing Miles the duct tape.
> 
> And it seemed Boone had recalled before Shannon did, how? and if he remembered, then why couldn't he cause shannon to remember?


Same reason Kate couldn't get Jack to remember ... it wasn't her that he needed to fully remember, but rather his father's coffin.

Shannon need Sayid to fully remember.


----------



## Mike Wells

BK89 said:


> This may be a smeek but what about MILES! They never explained anything about his special magical ability with dead people? This always kind of annoyed me that they just have him talking to dead people and never explained how or why. And he was doing this off island as well so its not like he came to the island and it gave him some pecial power (like Locke and his legs)? :down:


Yeah, this one irked me a bit. Even more than that, what about the Miles flashback when he was using his "talent" to get the money from the dead son's room after bilking the mom? Remember all the discussion about how the photos on the wall changed from when he went upstairs to when he came back down? What was that?

That scene seemed to point to an alternate universe of some sort, or shifting realities, but then no payoff. It was supposed that there was a flash right then (when the donkey wheel turned?) but no hint of what happened.

Again, none of that matters from a character perspective, but it DOES from a consistency perspective.


----------



## danterner

3D said:


> 2) I can't say for sure without rewatching season six in its entirety, but from the little we saw of Rose and Bernard in the sideways world, I suspect that they were the first ones to remember everything. I don't think that everyone in sideways world actually lived a full "fake" life until they could all be brought together. Rather, I think the opening scene of this season aboard the plane was the first moment in purgatory for all of the characters, who simply had memories of their different life. I am convinced that Rose and Bernard, from moment one, had all of their memories in tact.


I buy that. Especially given the dialog between Rose and Jack in the opening moments of the first episode of the season -- the plane going through turbulence but not breaking apart. When the shaking stops, Rose looks at Jack, his hands still clenched on the armrest, and pointedly tells him "It's okay. You can let go now. It's okay to let go." (Close paraphrase). [Which is a departure from the pilot episode, where there roles were reversed -- Rose was the nervous one and Jack comforted her].


----------



## Cearbhaill

aindik said:


> For people considering whether the sideways was Jack's dying vision, are you including the entire sideways for the entire season, including parts of the sideways that had nothing to do with Jack? Seems weird for Jack to envision Hurley going on a date with Libby on the beach and then Hurley "remembering"? Or anyone else "remembering," or Hurley at a charity dinner, or Charlie and Desmond under water, or in a bar, or Sawyer going out on a a date with Charlotte, or anything like that.





danterner said:


> How about this? -- Last night's episode (the sideways parts of it, I mean) was Jack's dying vision. The prior sideways episodes this season, that had nothing to do with Jack, were the visions/purgatories of that episode's focus character.


Yes. Everyone's alternative universe was their own version of reconciling their lives. That they all met up to help Jack doesn't mean they can't stand alone or somehow interact with another person or group IMO. I don't think any of this bunch "going through" at the same time are removed from all the other people who have ever died- this was just one instance where they banded together to commemorate Jack's coming/understanding.



wombat94 said:


> *Each of the people in the sideways world is "real" in the sense that they are living there, they are carrying on with their lives in a similar (if not exactly the same) way to what they might have if they had never crashed on the island. *As I said elsewhere, I think the "remembering" is each of the other folks from the island being "called" into Jack's limbo in order to help him finally make the transition and move on to his afterlife once he had arrived at the point where he was ready.


I don't believe they were physically living in an alternate universe. I think AU took place on a spiritual plane.


----------



## aindik

So, when the plane arrived back at the mainland, what did they tell everyone? Sawyer and Claire were mentioned as dead when the Oceanic Six came home.


----------



## vman

aindik said:


> I don't know about Sawyer, but I imagine Kate spent the rest of her life with Claire and Aaron.


And I'd guess Sawyer tracked down his daughter.


----------



## MickeS

Mike Wells said:


> Yeah, this one irked me a bit. Even more than that, what about the Miles flashback when he was using his "talent" to get the money from the dead son's room after bilking the mom? *Remember all the discussion about how the photos on the wall changed from when he went upstairs to when he came back down? What was that?*
> 
> That scene seemed to point to an alternate universe of some sort, or shifting realities, but then no payoff. It was supposed that there was a flash right then (when the donkey wheel turned?) but no hint of what happened.


That was officially deemed a while ago to be a "continuity error". I don't buy it though, I think it was a storyline that they decided not to pursue.


----------



## atrac

SocratesJohnson said:


> I really like that Vincent showed up at the end and lay with Jack so he wouldn't be dying totally alone, given the sacrifice he just made.


This actually brought tears to my eyes. Good stuff!


----------



## MickeS

aindik said:


> So, when the plane arrived back at the mainland, what did they tell everyone? Sawyer and Claire were mentioned as dead when the Oceanic Six came home.


"Surprise!"


----------



## LordKronos

jeff125va said:


> I don't rule out that the wreckage shots during the credits could possibly have been just something to show instead of a blank screen, like a final farewell or whatever. But I'm still thinking it could have been the Ajira flight. I certainly haven't seen anything conclusive that it isn't.


Well, here you go. Conclusive proof that it isn't.

Plane from ending sequence:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=145603&fullsize=1

Ajira plane:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=145391&fullsize=1

Oceanic plan from Season 1 Episode 1:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-3-74.html

Look at the paint around the windows. It should be very clear that it was not the Ajira plane.


----------



## Polcamilla

JYoung said:


> Again, whom did Jacob actually kill?


Jacob threw his brother down into the light knowing that it would be worse than death. Jacob ordered Richard to kill the Dharma Initiative. Jacob also, when recruiting Richard, mentions that he brought lots of other people to the Island who have all died and have all failed to past some test of worthiness. Whether HE killed them or they died other ways is unclear. Similarly, we still don't know who or what killed all of Danielle's companions.

At the end of the day, Jacob's job is to protect the light from people seeking it and he seems to do that by eliminating anyone who might get too close (though why he doesn't eliminate them from the get-go, but rather, like his mother, lets them start colonies and get settled in, and THEN bump them off, isn't clear).

In fact, I kept being reminded of Nichelle Nichols in Futurama: "Something's wrong. Murder isn't working, and that's all we're good at."


----------



## Mike Wells

MickeS said:


> That was officially deemed a while ago to be a "continuity error". I don't buy it though, I think it was a storyline that they decided not to pursue.


Ah, ok. that's a lot of work to change part of a set "on accident." I'd guess it was abandoned as well.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

DavidTigerFan said:


> Also, what happened to all the people that went with locke before he killed everyone in the temple? ie the flight attendant and the children? Did they get stuck on the island?





Mike Wells said:


> Ah, ok. that's a lot of work to change part of a set "on accident." I'd guess it was abandoned as well.


It was part of the reshoots they had to do when some film was lost or ruined in transit from Hawaii to LA.


----------



## 3D

danterner said:


> I buy that. Especially given the dialog between Rose and Jack in the opening moments of the first episode of the season -- the plane going through turbulence but not breaking apart. When the shaking stops, Rose looks at Jack, his hands still clenched on the armrest, and pointedly tells him "It's okay. You can let go now. It's okay to let go." (Close paraphrase). [Which is a departure from the pilot episode, where there roles were reversed -- Rose was the nervous one and Jack comforted her].


Yep, I was specifically thinking of this and the way Bernard acted when Jack visited him at his office. I don't remember if he said anything in particular, but something along the lines of "why wouldn't I remember John Lock?"


----------



## Boot

Interesting article:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sho...ou-come-with-me-ill-show-you-what-i-mean.html


----------



## jkeegan

Turtleboy said:


> I think an interesting question is which of the people who populated the flash sideways were there for real -- dead people who created the place to find each other and need to let go, and which were not really there?
> 
> Jack's son David was not really there.
> 
> But what about Charles Widmore? Was that really him, or just created by Desmond and Penny and Eloise?
> 
> Cindy the flight attendant?


Yeah I was wondering about mundane things like "so who manufactured that gun? Was there a unique soul there that built it in a gun factory, or is it just an object conjured up?".. Or more to the point, "that guy, right there walking down the street.. is he a non-player character (NPC)?

The interesting wrinkle is that while our main group left together, Eloise/Daniel, Ben/Alex/Danielle can still be there after they leave.. Two possibilities I see: whomever "made" the sideways made it to accomodate all of them too, but they can stay around as long as they want until they resolve their issues, or, the "place" they "made" is a subset of this always existing purgatory-like world, like literally that church or something. I'm siding with the former for now - Hurley/Jack/Ben/? made this for the people they knew, excluding those they didn't want there (Charles Widmore, Michael). Plus the whole point about them being there because it was the most significant moment in their lives, maybe.



DavidTigerFan said:


> Why was Aaron so important to the others? Because he was the first child born on the island? Why would they kidnap Claire before he was born?


They wanted her so that Juliete could continue searching for a "cure". Many of the others (notably Richard) thought that this quest of Ben's was a trivial concern, and that they were there for bigger, more important things.

Many children were born on the island (and it's likely that Ethan was conceived on the island too), just before The Incident. Nothing special there, except for trying to find a cure for what Juliete did by detonating the bomb.



Turtleboy said:


> I don't remember. Was Richard at the final scene at the end, and did he ever appear in the Flash sideways?
> 
> I think he may still be immortal. He started to age when the stopper was out of the hole, but I wonder if he continues to age afterward?


Richard wasn't in the church. And you have your order of events wrong, Miles pointed out Richard's grey hair at 32 minutes into the episode, which is before Jack even told Locke that he was going to kill him.

(and it was Jack that killed Locke btw... Kate shot him, which hurt him a lot, but Locke was still talking to Jack before Jack kicked him over the cliff.

By the way now that I have that scene up.. Man, go rewatch it.. starts at 34 minutes in.. The reactions on everyone else's face (everyone except Locke and Jack) when Jack is talking are PRICELESS!


----------



## JYoung

JYoung said:


> Again, whom did Jacob actually kill?
> (Ok, other than his brother)
> We never saw him kill anyone nor did we see him order the deaths of anyone.
> 
> On the other hand, Fake Locke slit Zoe's throat because he felt she was useless.


I'm requoting because you omitted something.



Polcamilla said:


> Jacob threw his brother down into the light knowing that it would be worse than death.


No, I don't think he did know. I'm not excusing him for what he did (and I don't think he did either).
He was in a rage because his "mother" was just killed.

(On the other hand, a lot of people gloss over the fact that Kate and James Ford are murderers too.)



Polcamilla said:


> Jacob ordered Richard to kill the Dharma Initiative.


When?
My recollection was that it was all Ben's idea.



Polcamilla said:


> Jacob also, when recruiting Richard, mentions that he brought lots of other people to the Island who have all died and have all failed to past some test of worthiness. Whether HE killed them or they died other ways is unclear.


Jacob was also very big on Free Will.
A lot of those people probably made poor choices.



Polcamilla said:


> Similarly, we still don't know who or what killed all of Danielle's companions.


That we do know. Smokey killed most of them at the Temple.
Danielle killed Robert after he was "infected".



Polcamilla said:


> At the end of the day, Jacob's job is to protect the light from people seeking it and he seems to do that by eliminating anyone who might get too close (though why he doesn't eliminate them from the get-go, but rather, like his mother, lets them start colonies and get settled in, and THEN bump them off, isn't clear).


Again, I can't recall seeing anything that shows that he eliminated anyone or ordered it to be done.


----------



## jeff125va

aindik said:


> I don't know about Sawyer, but I imagine Kate spent the rest of her life with Claire and Aaron.


I didn't mean no contact with any other human beings, I just meant romantically alone.



MickeS said:


> I'm pretty sure Hurley would let anyone leave that wanted to, so I doubt they were confined to the island. That said, I'm also pretty sure Rose & Bernard chose to stay though (considering the island healed her cancer).


I didn't mean they couldn't leave, just that they didn't. Rose and Bernard definitely intended to live the rest of their lives there, and we had seen numerous time that it was likely to be pretty uneventful. Hurley and Ben's might have been more eventful, but at least we were given a general idea of the paths their lives would take.


----------



## wprager

betts4 said:


> The Jack and Kate last kiss on the cliff top was nice. Feel the passion that they have been denying and accepting and then denying for six seasons.
> 
> Hurley's "Dude I am not going down that" in regards to the skimpy ladder was great. Could Kate and Sawyer survived a dive like that?


I was hoping they'd "Butch and Sundance" it but then Kate just jumped. I just don't understand why Sawyer had to dive. Whom was he trying to impress? I'd rather break a toe or twist my ankle than break my neck or have water pull off my eyelids.

The stuntpeople obviously survived, so, yeah, Kate and Sawyer could as well.


----------



## betts4

jkeegan said:


> Miles pointed out Richard's grey hair at 32 minutes into the episode, which is before Jack even told Locke that he was going to kill him.


I thought that was an amusing bit. I mean, here we are sitting on this island facing death and destruction and mass confusion and we need to get over to the other island and we aren't sure if anyone else is coming....and I notice that you have a gray hair and pluck it out.

Right...... 

Okay, I understand WHY they did it, but it was amusing.


----------



## unicorngoddess

I think what happened to Richard isn't really relavent to the other Losties...he's hundreds of years old...I would assume that when he passed, he could care less about meeting up with our group of Losties...he's probably enjoying his afterlife with his wife from wayyy back in the day. It makes sense as to why he wouldn't be there.


----------



## jkeegan

mwhip said:


> Jack was not the last to die just the last to "come around" on them being in purgatory? So they needed Desmond "the constant" and Hurley to get everyone to "see" since everyone was dead now and they could move on? I just really want to know who was the last to die. Did Desmond who came back to the Island with Widmore and thrown into the well know that there was a sideways world waiting to be resolved?


Ok..

First, the last to die was probably either Hurley or Ben, which I'm guessing was probably a thousand or two years later. First to die was probably Boone, then Shannon, etc (don't have a list of who was in the church in front of me with a chronology of who died when). Jack died before most (all?) of the people in this episode. Someday Penny dies, as does Sawyer, etc. Juliete already died.

When people died, imagine it as if their souls immediately get time traveled to this afterlife sideways beginning point.

Widmore brought Desmond to the island because Jacob told him to. That was Jacob's long con - Jacob knew Jack would realize that Jacob brought Desmond to the island deliberately via Widmore, and for a purpose, and that that he was part of a plan. Jacob knew that realizing this, Jack would trust the plan and bring Desmond to the cave, and knew that Desmond would put out the light, end smokey's power, and Jack would kill him. He also knew he'd be able to reactivate the light and sacrifice his life, and pass the torch onto Hurley.


----------



## jkeegan

Roommate said:


> Put me down in the "loved it" camp.
> 
> One aspect of the alt-timeline not being a "real" timeline that makes me happy, is it means "Whatever happened, happened" was true all along. I loved that aspect of the show during season 5 (yay! an internally consistent time travel story!) and was slightly disappointed when it seemed the plan to blow the bomb and reset the timeline "worked' (sort of). Now, finding out that it truly didn't work at all, and Faraday was right all along (at least until he started to doubt his own theory), is a personally satisfying reveal, completely aside from the greater limbo/purgatory aspects of it all. Which I also loved.
> 
> Bravo, Carlton and Damon. This could go down as my favorite show ever.


:up::up::up::up::up:

Sometime today I'll post a picture of me in my shirt.


----------



## Cainebj

Man, these LOST threads get long. 
I only got to page 12 before I gave up, so apologies if someone mentioned or asked already...

But...

Was the driver of the Oceanic van that delivered the coffin anyone seen before?


----------



## Demandred

When Desmond went into the cave, he passed a skeleton. Whose skeleton was it? And why would they introduce another mystery like that in the finale?


----------



## Family

Those who feel slighted that they didn't answer island questions well it's the same as having to know where a wicked witch got her powers from. It was a fairy tale. 

Didn't you see the coming attractions with Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and the gold glitter last week? Fantasy. As long as the prince and princess got together... that's all the ending needed.


----------



## LordKronos

wprager said:


> I'd rather break a toe or twist my ankle than break my neck or have water pull off my eyelids.


Simply hitting the water at high velocity can kill you if the water forcefully goes in your butt. No approach is without risk.


----------



## jkeegan

*Proud Apostle of the Faraday Institute*


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Demandred said:


> When Desmond went into the cave, he passed a skeleton. Whose skeleton was it? And why would they introduce another mystery like that in the finale?


It was MiB. Who died down there just a couple weeks ago.

(Or a couple of millennia ago, depending on your perspective!)


----------



## jeff125va

LordKronos said:


> Well, here you go. Conclusive proof that it isn't.
> 
> Plane from ending sequence:
> http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=145603&fullsize=1
> 
> Ajira plane:
> http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=145391&fullsize=1
> 
> Oceanic plan from Season 1 Episode 1:
> http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-3-74.html
> 
> Look at the paint around the windows. It should be very clear that it was not the Ajira plane.


Hmmm, you may be right. It's a bit too distant to be sure that that's actually paint, as opposed to just being burnt-out on the inside or whatever, but the Oceanic windows are definitely more square in shape, like the ones in the wreckage.

Also, the fact that the shot was in the credits would have me lean toward it not being part of the narrative. And Kate did say that she missed Jack, and it would make more sense that she was referring to the rest of her natural life back home.

Still, it does seem strange that they'd give us a pretty good level of closure for so many characters, yet leave things so open-ended for those few.

But just contemplating them going back opens up such a can of worms as far as their story. They survive not only Oceanic 815 but then the Ajira crash (or disappearance, depending on what the rest of the world knows about it) as well. Granted, they aren't in the sort of danger they were the first time around as far as why they had to lie, but still.


----------



## jkeegan

cheesesteak said:


> I think Ben was afraid God would punch him in the face 4 or 5 times like everybody else on the show.


Bahahahaha!!


----------



## Demandred

If the skeleton was MIB, how did Jacob bury MIB's body in the cave for Jack to fiind in S1?


----------



## thenightfly42

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was MiB. Who died down there just a couple weeks ago.
> 
> (Or a couple of millennia ago, depending on your perspective!)


No, MiB's skeleton is in the first cave; remember Adam & Eve?


----------



## janry

Family said:


> Those who feel slighted that they didn't answer island questions well it's the same as having to know where a wicked witch got her powers from. It was a fairy tale.
> 
> Didn't you see the coming attractions with Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and the gold glitter last week? Fantasy. As long as the prince and princess got together... that's all the ending needed.


If ABC had advertised _Lost_ as a fantasy show, I wouldn't feel slighted.


----------



## kcarl75

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was MiB. Who died down there just a couple weeks ago.
> 
> (Or a couple of millennia ago, depending on your perspective!)


Didn't his body get thrown out of the cave, and he was laid to rest as part of Adam\Eve?


----------



## jkeegan

Steveknj said:


> Anyone else feel the final battle between Jack and Locke had a Obi-Wan vs. Anikan Skywalker feel to it?


As soon as Jack was on top looking down, my wife Laurie said "YOU WERE MY BROTHER, ANAKIN!".. I immediately followed up with "It's over Anakin.. I have the high ground.." and "Don't try it".


----------



## Family

janry said:


> If ABC had advertised _Lost_ as a fantasy show, I wouldn't feel slighted.


You got polar bears running around an island and smoke monsters swallowing people up since the beginning. The possibility always existed.


----------



## d-dub

atrac said:


> Just one, as an example.
> 
> "What is the island?"
> 
> "It's a magical/mysterious/unknown place" is the answer. That was already a given in earlier seasons. So I have no new information for them.
> 
> Personally, I want to know what "the magic box" is that Ben referred to that "whatever you want to be inside will appear" (paraphrased). The one that brought Locke's father to the island.
> 
> I know, I know. "It's a magic box." What else could I possibly want to know about it???


I think the answer the writers might give you is, "It doesn't matter in the end what the island "is." It's a mystery, simply a way of bringing the characters together, and a way of presenting challenges that brings out their true natures. The story is really about the people, there will always be unexplained mysteries in life."


----------



## 3D

jkeegan said:


> And you have your order of events wrong, Miles pointed out Richard's grey hair at 32 minutes into the episode, which is before Jack even told Locke that he was going to kill him.


I kind of figured that Richard starting to age had more to do with Jacob finally disappearing for good. Sure, Jacob told Richard that Richard would never die, but, as with so many things, I'm guessing Jacob was actually wrong about that. His power to keep Richard alive only extended as far as his own existence in this universe.


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was MiB. Who died down there just a couple weeks ago.
> 
> (Or a couple of millennia ago, depending on your perspective!)


So does that mean that it was NOT Jacob's brother who took Locke's form, but the Smoke Monster who is a separate entity that was released when Jacob killed his bro?

Edit: I smeeked, obviously he's buried in the cave with fake Mama


----------



## MickeS

Boot said:


> Interesting article:
> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sho...ou-come-with-me-ill-show-you-what-i-mean.html


Thanks! That was very well written. I recommend everyone to click on it and read the whole thing.

This sums up much of the feelings about the finale (and the entire show):


> One of the reasons I think "Lost" worked was that it was always more interested in the box and the person holding the box than what was in the box. A closed box is almost always a mystery, really, until you open it and see what's inside (which is how so many parents misdirect their kids on Christmas morning). All of the imitators of the show that have come along have focused far, far more on the contents of that box. They wanna shake it and hear if it rattles. They wanna pull back the wrapping paper and take a peek. "Lost" has always been satisfied to dump a package in your lap and think that's enough. Is it? Again, for me, absolutely. But if not for you, does the fact that you opened the box and didn't find what you wanted ruin the whole experience of the show, all of the fun you had along the way? It's not wrong to feel that way, not at all. But it probably does speak to the different kinds of people we are, and the different ways we react to art.


I'm guessing that's a reference to this old speech by JJ Abrams:


----------



## unicorngoddess

Yeah, skelaton in the cave can't be MIB as it was shown and highlighted that Jacob laid his body to rest with their "mother" and they were found by Jack and Kate in S1.


----------



## danterner

Demandred said:


> If the skeleton was MIB, how did Jacob bury MIB's body in the cave for Jack to fiind in S1?


While watching, I assumed it was MIB. When I thought more about it, I realized that couldn't be it for the reasons mentioned above (MIB's body was laid to rest beside Mother, in the cave). Presumably, others have been down in the grotto before. Someone built and inserted the cork. The floor was carved stone, laid by someone. All of this has happened before (but it only ends once -- all the rest is progress). So the skeleton must just have been the body of someone smokified in the distant past. Who? Not important.


----------



## LordKronos

jeff125va said:


> Hmmm, you may be right. It's a bit too distant to be sure that that's actually paint, as opposed to just being burnt-out on the inside or whatever


I *MAY* be right? Wow...some people really really dig at finding ways to question this stuff. A perfectly straight and consistent burn, just the same size as the Oceanic stripe? With a red stripe below it too? Come on!!!! Just to please you, there was another shot from the ending sequence that shows the inside:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=145404&fullsize=1

If you look at other pictures from last night and season 1 (I won't bother linking for the benefit of the insane) you can see the layout of some parts are the same, the shape of the hill in the background behind the engine is the same, etc. This is one of those things that, if you question it, you are more nuts (much more) than the people questioning whether Sun slept with that guy.


----------



## jeff125va

Roommate said:


> Put me down in the "loved it" camp.
> 
> One aspect of the alt-timeline not being a "real" timeline that makes me happy, is it means "Whatever happened, happened" was true all along. I loved that aspect of the show during season 5 (yay! an internally consistent time travel story!) and was slightly disappointed when it seemed the plan to blow the bomb and reset the timeline "worked' (sort of). Now, finding out that it truly didn't work at all, and Faraday was right all along (at least until he started to doubt his own theory), is a personally satisfying reveal, completely aside from the greater limbo/purgatory aspects of it all. Which I also loved.
> 
> Bravo, Carlton and Damon. This could go down as my favorite show ever.


Yeah, I didn't have time this season to get involved in the threads as much as I would have liked, but I'm almost glad I didn't. I would have spent a lot of time on theories about the alt-timeline counterparts of the characters, and exactly how the nuke altered the course of events, most of which were never really answered (well, I mean within the alternate timeline, they were explained away last night, of course.) And yeah, I was glad to know that Faraday was right, well at least at first, since it was his idea to alter things.


----------



## Steveknj

jkeegan said:


> As soon as Jack was on top looking down, my wife Laurie said "YOU WERE MY BROTHER, ANAKIN!".. I immediately followed up with "It's over Anakin.. I have the high ground.." and "Don't try it".


The whole scene with the rocks falling all around and the stormy feeling gave me that vibe. Considering that the producers are big Star Wars fans, I don't think that was a coincidence.


----------



## janry

Family said:


> You got polar bears running around an island and smoke monsters swallowing people up since the beginning. The possibility always existed.


As I said in another thread, yeah, I probably should have seen it coming but I kept buying into it. The answers, the mysteries, etc.

It reminds me of _Life on Mars_. It also had things going on that seemed rather fantastical. The ending wasn't spectacular, but they wrapped it up nicely and it made sense.


----------



## jeff125va

LordKronos said:


> I *MAY* be right? Wow...some people really really dig at finding ways to question this stuff. A perfectly straight and consistent burn, just the same size as the Oceanic stripe? With a red stripe below it too? Come on!!!! Just to please you, there was another shot from the ending sequence that shows the inside:
> 
> http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=145404&fullsize=1
> 
> If you look at other pictures from last night and season 1 (I won't bother linking for the benefit of the insane) you can see the layout of some parts are the same, the shape of the hill in the background behind the engine is the same, etc. This is one of those things that, if you question it, you are more nuts (much more) than the people questioning whether Sun slept with that guy.


Wow. What a ******bag.


----------



## gchance

Cainebj said:


> Was the driver of the Oceanic van that delivered the coffin anyone seen before?


Just another character actor, one who's been in many, many shows, including Brothers & Sisters, Brisco County Jr. (one of Carlton Cuse's first shows) and Highlander, which also featured Andrew Divoff (Mikhail). 

His name is John Pyper-Ferguson.










Greg


----------



## Steveknj

So what is the record for quickest time to 1000 posts in a thread?


----------



## betts4

Cainebj said:


> Was the driver of the Oceanic van that delivered the coffin anyone seen before?


I wondered this, but couldn't place him anywhere.



jkeegan said:


> *Proud Apostle of the Faraday Institute*


VERY Awesome!!!!

I joined the LOST fan club at ABC sometime during the first or second season just to get this shirt. There was a whole little fan club batch of stuff but the shirt was a must. And the face caused from alcohol and a marathon of Lost season 1 thru 3 at a LOST party weekend.


----------



## jkeegan

wombat94 said:


> First Post from a lurker...


Welcome! Start just in time..



> 2. This season's flash sideways was taking place in some sort of limbo that Jack inhabited until he was ready to move on to his place in the afterlife. BUT what we are seeing in the flash sideways is Jack's limbo. Just as there is no real concept of time in the FSW, there's no one reality in the FSW - it is what each of them makes of it.


I've entertained this idea, which is more like most purgatory story lines, but I think Christian indicated that this was different.. He said they made this place so they could find each other. I think they had a shared sideways reality.



> 3. I believe that most of the other losties we see in the Flash sideways have already moved on in their own realities... some probably did so very quickly and easily in their lives (Sun and Jin I believe probably moved on together very easily since they were reunited at their deaths and were together). But others may have been stuck for a long time in their own limbo after their death.


I think they had their entire lives up to the point where they went into the church.. some things were different, by design, but that was the time they had.



> 4. Desmond is the "Constant" and he still retains a certain ability to transcend space/time throughout all of this. Whatever Desmond is, it is beyond the rest of the people. But at the end of the real island timeline that we've seen, Desmond is going to live, and Hurley/Ben send him back home to be with Penny/little Charlie. He lives the rest of his natural life out and then once in the afterlife still has a role as a catalyst... helping to facilitate the moving on by other people once they are ready.


Not following what you're trying to say about Desmond, but I do want to correct a misconception/mislabel that a bunch of people here have started making (yourself included). Desmond was never referred to as "the constant".. Daniel Faraday wrote that if things went wrong, Desmond would be HIS constant, which only meant someone/something that Daniel had met/experienced at multiple times in his life, so that his brain could work out which is the future and which is the past, and become grounded. (It's also for us, the audience, to be able to tie down a timeline and know when a given scene is). Desmond is Faraday's constant, and Penny is Desmond's constant. Desmond isn't "THE" contant, because there isn't such a thing.



> 7. We don't know how long this could have taken Jack in terms of earthly timeline - it may have been a year, 10 years or a thousand years. As implied by the Hurley/Ben interaction outside of the church it was at least quite a while since Hugo was a good leader in the past tense. Obviously from Kate's reaction, it has taken quite a while for Jack to be ready.


I disagree, I think Jack either had from his birth to the church scene in the sideways, or from the time of the turbulence during 815 to the church scene in the sideways (not sure which).

The reason Kate said that she missed him is because he died in 2007, and she probably lived on for another 60-70 years and died around 2077. When she died in 2077 she went right to the sideways, let's say in the 815 flight, and when Jack died he went right to the sideways, let's say in the 815 flight.
So she had lots of time to morne his death and miss him.



> 2. I should have really realized this, back in Ab Aeterno, but with one little reference to Captain Hanso of the Black Rock, in retrospect, that answered all the questions for me satisfactorily about the Dharma Initiative. It was financed by the Hanso foundation - a cover organization for Jacob to keep funnelling potential replacement candidates to the island. To me it even explains the airdrops of supplies in 2004/2005 from the Dharma initiative - Jacob calls for supplies when he needs them in order to help new arrivals on the island.


+like :up:


----------



## balboa dave

I'm with Rob on this. Emotionally, and from the character development viewpoint, this was very satisfying conclusion. But in this context, the entire flash sideways scenes as a whole are little more than a very good reunion episode. Except for Hugo and Ben's throwaway lines, there was nothing that advanced the island mythology (and I await the fan drawing or photochop of them as Mr. Roarke and Tattoo). Nothing in the storylines of the flash sideways had anything to do with the mythology of the island, except, ooh, weren't those good times? Hundreds, maybe thousands, of people died over the six years of this show, so I guess that there's a heaven, or whatever the light in the church was, makes it OK. Our favorite characters have a happy ending, and that's what counts.

From the intellectual viewpoint, I really hoped the flash sideways would have a more interesting resolution. I was entertained by the possibility they might have been a result of the nuclear explosion interacting with the island's E/M force, that they were a result of some entanglement with a parallel universe that would resolve itself with lots of drama, but no, we get a well tread supernatural revelation. As I said, it was well done, and I enjoyed it for what it was, but as a hard core sci-fi guy (and I know hard core guys don't like the term), it had the potential to have been so much better.


----------



## Bluewookie

I had a "glitch" in my recording, and did not get any audio during the whole conversation between Desmond and Eloise at the concert. Can anyone fill me in?


----------



## Supfreak26

dandrewk said:


> For those of you who think the arc of the show was made up as it went along: Remember the dog! Vincent was in the first scene to bring Jack to the beach to help with the crash victims. In the end, he comes to bring Jack to his final journey. The show's writers knew how it would end from the start.


So they couldn't look back to the first episode and fashion the ending to match what we saw then? It doesn't take long-term planning to do that.



LordKronos said:


> I *MAY* be right? Wow...some people really really dig at finding ways to question this stuff. A perfectly straight and consistent burn, just the same size as the Oceanic stripe? With a red stripe below it too? Come on!!!! Just to please you, there was another shot from the ending sequence that shows the inside:
> 
> http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=145404&fullsize=1
> 
> If you look at other pictures from last night and season 1 (I won't bother linking for the benefit of the insane) you can see the layout of some parts are the same, the shape of the hill in the background behind the engine is the same, etc. This is one of those things that, if you question it, you are more nuts (much more) than the people questioning whether Sun slept with that guy.


LOL!

This is the main reason I stayed away from most of the LOST threads. Too many people seeing clues and mysteries where there are none. I think I stopped around the Sun argument because it was just too frustrating.

I thought this last episode (and the few before this one) spelled things out very literally. Christian explained what the flash-sideways world was in explicit detail. Yet some here want to make this into Jack's sole fantasy? Go back and watch that scene again. Christian explained it very clearly.

I absolutely loved this ending. Very satisfying compared to other series finales I've seen. I nearly cried many times during these 2.5 hours. Great stuff.

What's funny is how I've changed throughout this series. In the beginning, I was the one raving about questions unanswered and mysteries unsolved. I wanted it all spelled out for me. I remember hating most of the flashbacks because I was only interested in the mysteries of the island.

Now I'm the exact opposite. While I still love the mysteries of the island, I find myself caring deeply for the characters which is why I think I loved this episode so much. After all of the suffering and pain these guys have gone through, it was very rewarding to see them all smile at the end. I was even happy to see Ben get his wish in the end. (Both on the island and in the flash-sideways.)

I can accept many things on the island as "it is what it is" and I actually prefer that they remain mysterious. If they were to spell it out, I promise that the vast majority of fans will revolt. The explanations could never be good enough.

That said, I wouldn't argue against some kind of prequal mini-series showing the origins of the island and it's protectors. I also wouldn't mind seeing Hurley run the show with Ben.


----------



## getbak

600 posts in, and I don't believe anyone has said this: I really liked the dress that Desmond brought for Kate.


----------



## kemajor

Turtleboy said:


> Listening to the producers' podcasts, they talked about two things from other movies that they hated and wanted to avoid.
> 
> 1) Midichlorians
> 2) The Matrix Revolutions -- the scene where the architect explains everything.
> 
> Both were lame.


I'm sorry but you are incorrect about #2.  Something like that would be a perfect example of a satisfying ending to LOST for me.

- K


----------



## mostman

Wil said:


> Three of your last five posts constitute about the best writing I have seen about the series. You were a good audience.





ronsch said:


> :up::up:
> Mostman has one of the best grasps of what the whole thing was about.


Thanks folks. Just trying to help my fellow TiVo Community pals work their minds through this thing.


----------



## Philosofy

I'm 15 pages in, and a lot of stuff is being rehashed, but I want to put in my $0.02. I liked the finale, but didn't understand it until I started reading this thread. My preconceived notions got in my way. I was convinced that limbo people would travel to the Island timeline so much so, that when they arrived at the church, I thought it was where Eloise Hawking had the big pendulum in the basement. So when Jack asked if he was dead, and the answer was yes, it threw me for a loop, and it didn't sink in until later. I was confused: did Jack die in the initial plane crash, was the Island real, etc. etc. etc. The hints and facts were there, but I guess I was in some form of denial.

On the whole, I don't think Lost will stand up to a second viewing quite as well as we might think. I always thought of Lost as an X Files that actually delivered answers. Where did the polar bear come from? The Dharma initiative. What is the hatch? A Dharma station. And as those questions were answered, more, deeper mysteries were there. How did the Island heal people? Who is Jacob? What is the smoke monster. What has me disappointed is that the Dharma initiative was not the first layer in a large mystery, it was a dead end that was pursued for a couple seasons. Stuff that, in the larger picture of the whole series, was unimportant. Also Jacob, who is supposed to be good, and the Others, who claimed to be good, didn't act in a good way. 

Another point I'm a little upset about is the whole Limbo timeline. They took half of the last season to basically end up with Obi Wan, Anakin, and Yoda ghosts waving at us. Although interesting while watching, in retrospect it seems like a dead end. They could have just put up a screen saying "And they all died happily ever after..."


----------



## d-dub

rlc1 said:


> Thank you for posting a reasoned response - unlike some others here who choose to insult others that don't agree with them. However, I disagree with the statement that when all your questions aren't answered, it's still a good story. Okay, maybe it would be ok if they didn't answer absolutely everything. But when the main part of the story becomes the battle between Jacob and the Man In Black, good writers should at least have some explanation for that part of the story. To say that a story doesn't always have explanations or answers seems like a cop-out. A good story _does_ have some answers at the end.
> 
> As for the Man In Black, I would have liked to have found out exactly what would have happened to everyone if he had escaped from the island. Supposedly it would have been very bad for the world (everyone would have died?) if he escaped. And for a while, MIB's tactic was to kill all of the candidates so he could escape the island. So for a while I thought, well, he's some creature filled with evil and special powers (smoke monster and all that), and if he escapes he'll wreak havoc on the world. But after he turned off the light on the island, he was clearly just a regular person because he could be hurt and killed, just like a regular person. So what kind of bad thing would have happened if he escaped? Just sayin'....


A good story teller will leave room in his story for you to fill in your own answers. What's more important than the writers' interpretation of what the island, glowing pool, and smoke monster represented is *your* ideas of what they represent. Those are what the story means to you. That's what allows you to become involved in the story, rather than just a spectator of it.

When you try to be just a spectator, that's when you feel dissatisfied with the unanswered questions. Go ahead and be a part of the story... what does the MIB represent to you? What would happen to the world if your conception of him escaped from the world? Your ideas are just as valid as the writers' ideas would be.


----------



## ronsch

3D said:


> I kind of figured that Richard starting to age had more to do with Jacob finally disappearing for good. Sure, Jacob told Richard that Richard would never die, but, as with so many things, I'm guessing Jacob was actually wrong about that. His power to keep Richard alive only extended as far as his own existence in this universe.


:up::up::up:


----------



## GDG76

My take on the skeletons in the light cave was that this has happened many times before and will probably happen again...

It kind of explains the smoke monster in the Egyptian pictures. There were smoke monsters before, they've been killed, etc. The cycle repeats...

I thought for sure Hurley was going to toss Ben in there at some point. I liked the way they did it much more - would have been way out of character for Hurley to do something like that...


----------



## ronsch

Philosofy said:


> What has me disappointed is that the Dharma initiative was not the first layer in a large mystery, it was a dead end that was pursued for a couple seasons.


One side effect of the Dharma Initiative was to allow Sawyer & Juliette's relationship to come to fruition. Granted it could have been achieved in other ways....


----------



## aindik

Anyone else get the sense that Hurley and Ben bailed on Jack too quickly? It didn't look like he had to die.


----------



## jkeegan

JYoung said:


> Maybe, he does.
> What if Kate was pregnant when she left on Ajiria 316?


Agh I dislike the mere suggestion of that.. He was the result of Jack and Juliete having a kid. If Jack and Kate had a kid, the kid would be a different person. Different genetic makeup, different experiences with his mother, etc.



danterner said:


> I laughed out loud when Flocke spotted Vincent's paw print at Desmond's well. Presumably Vincent found Desmond, and ran off to get Rose and Bernard who rescued him from the well. ("What's that, Lassie? Timmy's fallen into a well?")


LOL! I can't believe I hadn't followed that thought through to its conclusion until the 7th word of your 2nd sentence.. Should have seen that with the pawprint. Should have predicted it'd be Rose & Bernard because of that last week too (because they have Vincent).. A well. Damn.


----------



## MickeS

jeff125va said:


> Wow. What a ******bag.


We were wrong, get over it.


----------



## janry

aindik said:


> Anyone else get the sense that Hurley and Ben bailed on Jack too quickly? It didn't look like he had to die.


Sure, but Ben wasn't going to risk his life to save anyone and I can't see them lowering Huley down the cave and certainly not pulling him back out.


----------



## Supfreak26

getbak said:


> 600 posts in, and I don't believe anyone has said this: I really liked the dress that Desmond brought for Kate.


I had to pause during one of her scenes to tell my wife that "Kate is rocking that dress!" Man she looked great!


----------



## jkeegan

Cearbhaill said:


> Aaron appeared as_ Jack_ remembered him- as did they all.
> This was _Jack's_ ending,_ Jack's _death. Everyone who played an important role in _his _journey was there to help him pass and/or pass with him.
> Those characters who were not there were not integral to _Jack's_ journey, at least in his mind.


Yeahhhhh, but the problem with a "this is Jack's custom purgatory and everyone gets their own one" theory is that we saw multiple scenes that Jack had nothing to do with, and didn't know about. Charlie turning the wheel on Desmond to get him to crash into the water, and Desmond's memory of seeing Not Penny's Boat on his hand, had nothing to do with Jack. If this was Jack's imaginary world, it'd all be Jack centric (or we wouldn't be seeing scenes that weren't related to Jack).

Christian said they created this together so they could find each other. This was a shared experience.


----------



## Cainebj

gchance said:


> Just another character actor, one who's been in many, many shows, including Brothers & Sisters, Brisco County Jr. (one of Carlton Cuse's first shows) and Highlander, which also featured Andrew Divoff (Mikhail).
> 
> His name is John Pyper-Ferguson.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg


thanks Greg - I knew I knew him from somewhere, but I couldn't figure out if it was LOST or not 

Oddly enough, I probably most know him from Brothers and Sisters.


----------



## Fahtrim

TriBruin said:


> I don't think anyone believes that EVERY minute of the entire series was planned out. There are huge story lines and characters that were dropped for one reason or another (Eko - actor wants to leave, Nikki & Pablo - Never listen to viewers who want to see more of "background" characters").
> 
> But I am amazed people still believe that the producers somehow winged it for 6 seasons. Certainly there was a lot of filler, but guess what, the Harry Potter series had tons of filler (Quiddich anyone?) But does that mean that JK Rowling just winged it. No, it is part of the story process.


uh........fail.

Harry Potter had a story line that all wrapped up, and it was announced a magic from the get go......no real questions. Quiddich was a game they played in their magical world, no questions at all left about that.

The "producers/writers/etc" clearly winged a lot of this series. Then in the final season they had a storyline they implemented and retro fitted in, imo.


----------



## jkeegan

danterner said:


> Was the "appendectomy" scar, from an appendectomy Jack couldn't recall having, similarly stigmata from the fatal wound he took in his side?


I wonder if Jacob knew that he'd eventually be stabbed there, and decided to cause Jack's appendix to rupture on the island so Juliete would take it out.. (similar to how Locke's kidney being removed allowed him to survive the gunshot from Ben)

By the way, Jacob and MiB's ability to see stuff waaaay ahead of time (to plan these long cons) is very Jedi like. Just sayin..


----------



## wprager

unicorngoddess said:


> I'm not sure there was ever suppose to be anything special about him...


Aaron was certainly special to Claire (and to Charlie, and to Kate).


----------



## SocratesJohnson

So when Desmond was experiencing "flashes" after he turned the hatches failsafe key, was he actually experiencing a different version of the limbo-world? One before he had made such deep connections to the losties?


----------



## Buster

balboa dave said:


> I'm with Rob on this. Emotionally, and from the character development viewpoint, this was very satisfying conclusion. But in this context, the entire flash sideways scenes as a whole are little more than a very good reunion episode. Except for Hugo and Ben's throwaway lines, there was nothing that advanced the island mythology (and I await the fan drawing or photochop of them as Mr. Roarke and Tattoo). Nothing in the storylines of the flash sideways had anything to do with the mythology of the island, except, ooh, weren't those good times? Hundreds, maybe thousands, of people died over the six years of this show, so I guess that there's a heaven, or whatever the light in the church was, makes it OK. Our favorite characters have a happy ending, and that's what counts.
> 
> From the intellectual viewpoint, I really hoped the flash sideways would have a more interesting resolution. I was entertained by the possibility they might have been a result of the nuclear explosion interacting with the island's E/M force, that they were a result of some entanglement with a parallel universe that would resolve itself with lots of drama, but no, we get a well tread supernatural revelation. As I said, it was well done, and I enjoyed it for what it was, but as a hard core sci-fi guy (and I know hard core guys don't like the term), it had the potential to have been so much better.


^^ this. I found the finale to be very emotionally powerful, but the more I think about it, the more it feels like an intellectual cop-out. Why could Desmond see the sideways-verse when he was locked in the room by Widmore and bombarded with electromagnetism if it's just purgatory?

My husband asked me this morning what I thought of the finale, and I said that they might as well have jumped off a roof (I didn't much care for the end to Life on Mars either). I think I feel slightly more charitable towards it than that because it was very emotionally satisfying, but not a lot.


----------



## Zevida

gchance said:


> Just another character actor, one who's been in many, many shows, including Brothers & Sisters, Brisco County Jr. (one of Carlton Cuse's first shows) and Highlander, which also featured Andrew Divoff (Mikhail).
> 
> His name is John Pyper-Ferguson.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg


Nobody touches Pete's piece!


----------



## unicorngoddess

wprager said:


> Aaron was certainly special to Claire (and to Charlie, and to Kate).


Obviously. I'm talking about the overall story though. As in, he had no secret purpose on the island that wasn't revealed.


----------



## brianp6621

jeff125va said:


> I don't rule out that the wreckage shots during the credits could possibly have been just something to show instead of a blank screen, like a final farewell or whatever. But I'm still thinking it could have been the Ajira flight. I certainly haven't seen anything conclusive that it isn't.


Go back and watch the episode again. If you compare the Ajira plane (which had no color around the windows at all, as seen by kate/sawyer from the beach when Lapidus is backing it up) to the plane on the beach at the end, they don't match at all. The plan on the beach has purple around the windows and pink and blue stripes down the side.

Edit... oops smeek.


----------



## brianp6621

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was MiB. Who died down there just a couple weeks ago.
> 
> (Or a couple of millennia ago, depending on your perspective!)


IIRC there were multiple skeletons.


----------



## Fahtrim

So all that rubbish about it all "ENDS" is just their lives, not the implied, the arc of protecting the island ends......more misleading stuff.

It was a fun ride, but it was not a well wrapped story, so much stuff started and abandonded until season 6.


----------



## brianp6621

jeff125va said:


> Wow. What a ******bag.


Sorry I agree with him. Those 3 pictures are about as conclusive as it could be without matching the paint samples on a molecular level. It is a bit silly to even question it with that evidence laid out.


----------



## mica

danterner said:


> "It's okay. You can let go now. It's okay to let go." (Close paraphrase).


Good catch!

I wanted to point out that Sawyer referred to Miles as "Enos" in the plane during the takeoff scene, echoing the same nickname used in the sideways world earlier in the episode. To me, this speaks to the fact that Sawyer "remembered" his sideways afterlife while on the island.

Is this another continuity error or a clue to the writers' intentions?


----------



## aindik

mica said:


> Good catch!
> 
> I wanted to point out that Sawyer referred to Miles as "Enos" in the plane during the takeoff scene, echoing the same nickname used in the sideways world earlier in the episode. To me, this speaks to the fact that Sawyer "remembered" his sideways afterlife while on the island.
> 
> Is this another continuity error or a clue to the writers' intentions?


I thought Sawyer was calling Miles "Enos" all the way back in the Dharma 70s.


----------



## dvdflix

Interesting thoughts on what the ending meant:

http://chud.com/articles/articles/2...ST039S-BIG-GNOSTIC-WET-FART-ENDING/Page1.html


----------



## mica

Oh, and one more thing: was Christian wearing white shoes in the church?


----------



## mica

aindik said:


> I thought Sawyer was calling Miles "Enos" all the way back in the Dharma 70s.


Yes, you're right - should have googled that first.


----------



## BeanMeScot

jeff125va said:


> I noticed that they even had the shoe hanging from a tree that he had passed by in the pilot.


And the shoe had aged. It was brand new when we first saw it. When we saw it in the end, it was ragged and dirty



cwoody222 said:


> BUT neither Juliet or Sawyer would have known about pulling the plug on the island. So why would either one of them "imagine" that about the candy machine in their made-up world?


I think this was more of a wink to the audience. They weren't meant to know the greater significance of what Sawyer did. It was just for us to laugh and say it was the same thing.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think what happened was Jacob's plan...it was MiB's plan, only it didn't work out the way he intended.
> 
> Jacob wanted Jack to take over the Jacob role and keep MiB trapped on the island. MiB wanted to use Desmond to unplug the hole and free him. Jack thought Desmond was important to Jacob's plan, not MiB's, so let him do his thing. When he realized his mistake, he improvised (brilliantly), taking advantage of the power-down to kill MiB, then anoint Hurley as his successor and go back into the cave to re-stop the hole.
> 
> Which probably gives Jack the all-time record for shortest tenure of an Island Protector!


Jack seemed to know what would happend though. He had a plan. He wasn't sure what Desmond was supposed to do but he felt sure it would allow him the chance he needed to kill MIB.



jgickler said:


> I guess my questions are about the whole motivation for what happened throughout the show.
> 
> If Jacob planned or manipulated the plane crash to find a replacement, why did he need a replacement? Did he foresee his death? And if he knew that he was going to die, why not do something to avoid his death or to kill his brother? It seems to me if he had killed, or had someone kill Ben Linus, Jacob would have been safe to live happily on the island.
> 
> What drew the survivors back to the island after the 1st escape. If they had not returned, Ben doesn't kill Jacob, Locke's body never returns to the island, and there are still a couple candidates left on the island (Sawyer and Jin). So why would Jacob draw them back?
> 
> I guess my problem with the finale is that Jacob has been setup as the puppet-master of the whole series, and I don't see any reason that a puppet-master would do things this way, instead he would have picked an easier path.


I think that Jacob was ready to die. He figured MIB would find a loophole at some point and I think he was ready to move on anyway. His job was to find the next protector and then his job was done and he could rest.



Demandred said:


> When Desmond went into the cave, he passed a skeleton. Whose skeleton was it? And why would they introduce another mystery like that in the finale?


There were many skeletons. I think others had found the place before but only someone like Desmond who was immune to electromagnetic energy would be able to get to the light. The others were drawn by the light but died because they couldn't tolerate the energy.


----------



## jkeegan

Demandred said:


> When Desmond went into the cave, he passed a skeleton. Whose skeleton was it? And why would they introduce another mystery like that in the finale?





GDG76 said:


> My take on the skeletons in the light cave was that this has happened many times before and will probably happen again...
> 
> It kind of explains the smoke monster in the Egyptian pictures. There were smoke monsters before, they've been killed, etc. The cycle repeats..


Thanks GDG76 you saved me from having to post that..

Multiple skeletons, totally backing up the idea that there were probably many people who tried getting to the light (and at least one that did prior to smokey, leading to the stone carving depicting a smoke monster from long ago.


----------



## aindik

BeanMeScot said:


> I think that Jacob was ready to die. He figured MIB would find a loophole at some point and I think he was ready to move on anyway. His job was to find the next protector and then his job was done and he could rest.


Sad thing is, if Jacob goes to purgatory like our Losties did, his church would be empty.


----------



## jkeegan

getbak said:


> 600 posts in, and I don't believe anyone has said this: I really liked the dress that Desmond brought for Kate.


I noticed it was black... as if she were going to a large funeral.


----------



## jkeegan

Whoa, caught up! Post #640.


----------



## gchance

Zevida said:


> Nobody touches Pete's piece!


MAH PIECE!!!









I also just remembered, MC Gainey was on Brisco as well. I love when producers reuse their actors! 











jkeegan said:


> Whoa, caught up! Post #640.


I've been refreshing off and on all day. I can keep this up all week. 

Greg


----------



## jkeegan

Ok a few more things:

Why there was an island at the bottom of the ocean in the sideways: I think the made sideways is a story world written by Hurley (or Jack, but probably Hurley..), and one of the elements was having the island out of their lives.. Locke had just threatened to sink the island and put it at the bottom of the ocean (which he actually failed to do), so Hurley put that into the story (in conjunction with his idea of making the bomb-dropping incident go the way they'd hoped, in his sideways story).

Deja vu.. Did I say this already? Whoa! I'm remembering something.. nah, it's gone.

The lack of Christian's body in both the sideways AND in reality has me wondering again about the phrase "it's turtles all the way down", and whether that applies here.. The magic of the island could certainly be explained easier if that's all part of a magic sideways world from somewhere else.. maybe they "move on" from world to world as a bunch, instead of the simple "go to heaven" idea? (I don't seriously think this - I found the presented story completely satisfactory, but the lack of his body in both does have me a bit puzzled).

By the way.. I'm an atheist who doesn't believe in any afterlife whatsoever, but I absolutely loved the story.. I've HATED religious cop-out endings to other works of "art" (most can guess which two I mean, one TV and one a movie, both mentioned in this thread), but here I felt they gave us fair warning as soon as we saw Miles being able to talk to dead people (and in his first flashback, he was doing that - talking, not just listening, despite what he later told Hurley about how it works). At that point I felt a small amount of disappointment, mourned the science/faith 50/50 balance they'd had up until then, and accepted that the story was clearly going more towards afterlifey-stuff.. I loved the movies Made in Heaven, Heaven Can Wait, and Field of Dreams, so I can enjoy those, but I have to know early on that that's what that is, otherwise it's a cop-out.

With 3 seasons of notice, I didn't feel that was a cop-out. Again I felt a bit uneasy at first, but grew to enjoy Miles and Hurley's abilities, and it made this story excellent.

And I for one am glad they managed to trick me into a purgatory story line after everyone and their cousin loudly guessed the island was purgatory in season 1. I'd even said things like "if that's what they wanted to do, I hope they don't change it since they're found out, but rather trick me into not noticing it coming".

They even tested my faith about What Happened, Happened - a point where I became _really_ disappointed that the elegance of a static time travel story was sacrificed to show us this what-if-815-never-crashed story.. I disliked two realities, and wanted to gag every time anyone here (no offense) suggested wanting to see characters from one of the timelines _actually travel_ from one timeline to the other physically, or to have the "two universes merge somehow".. Ugh.. Couldn't picture a way that that would happen which wouldn't utterly suck, but I had fai.. er.. trust in the writers that they'd present something good. Nicely done.

Ok, a few more things:

1) In the recap they showed them holding the sat phone, and I remembered us all looking intently at the sat phone UI and thinking "that looks like what the new iPhone thing that's going to come out in 6 months looks like!!! ooooohhh".. Wow, it's been a long time..

2) Another slight Charlie inconsistency: Charlie himself was the one to turn Desmond's car into the water to "show him", and told him about this beautiful girl he saw.. but he still took time even near Claire to "wake up".

3) The one moment where I teared up more than any other was actually when Hurley was talking to Ben and asked him if he'd be his #2. Michael Emerson, you da man. Insanely great acting. Second behind that (which I thought would be first) was the James/Juliete scene.

Excellent show. Gonna miss you Lost. It'll sadly be years before we have anything even close..


----------



## JYoung

jkeegan said:


> 2) Another slight Charlie inconsistency: Charlie himself was the one to turn Desmond's car into the water to "show him", and told him about this beautiful girl he saw.. but he still took time even near Claire to "wake up".


To be fair, Charlie was extremely loaded.
And I think there was also some stunned disbelief on his part that Claire was actually there.


----------



## gchance

I'm having a bit of fun looking at some old Lost threads. This gem is from the Walkabout thread:



Zevida said:


> I'm also sorry to be coming off so negative on a show so many people like. I really, really want to love this show, but I just can't. It's too dumb.


There's some cool stuff out there. 

Greg


----------



## Fool Me Twice

jkeegan said:


> Ok a few more things:
> ...


Coming upon one of your long posts in one of these long long threads is like having a giant hill appear suddenly in front of me when I'm out riding my bike. I know I'm going to tackle it, and I'm going to pedal the whole way, and I know I'll feel good about having completed it, but I can't say it makes me happy when I find myself at the bottom staring up.


----------



## BeanMeScot

jkeegan said:


> The lack of Christian's body in both the sideways AND in reality has me wondering again about the phrase "it's turtles all the way down", and whether that applies here.. The magic of the island could certainly be explained easier if that's all part of a magic sideways world from somewhere else.. maybe they "move on" from world to world as a bunch, instead of the simple "go to heaven" idea? (I don't seriously think this - I found the presented story completely satisfactory, but the lack of his body in both does have me a bit puzzled).


The body was missing in the sideways because it was a life after death. It wouldn't make sense for his body to be in the casket when EVERYONE there was dead!


----------



## Fool Me Twice

gchance said:


> I'm having a bit of fun looking at some old Lost threads. This gem is from the Walkabout thread:
> 
> There's some cool stuff out there.
> 
> Greg


I don't know why I remember this, but I remember when Zevida said she was giving up on LOST way back in season one, then showed up the the next weeks thread, and I amused myself by pointing out that she was still there. Though, I thought she was a he at the time.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Bluewookie said:


> I had a "glitch" in my recording, and did not get any audio during the whole conversation between Desmond and Eloise at the concert. Can anyone fill me in?


Basically, she asked Desmond if he was going to take her son away from her and he told her no.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

getbak said:


> 600 posts in, and I don't believe anyone has said this: I really liked the dress that Desmond brought for Kate.


I never really appreciated Kate's legs before she put on that dress. Very nice.


----------



## getreal

Turtleboy said:


> My only question was how did Jack get out of the hole?


I think the cave filled up with water and he floated out. He awoke on a rock in a pond which was fed by a small waterfall coming from a cave entrance.
I'd have to rewatch the episode with MiB to see if Jacob recovered his body from the same location. I recall us speculating that he was blown out of the hole when Smokey emerged, but he might have been washed out as well.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Someone from Bad Robot's take on the Finale 



> This is making the rounds, not sure how true it is...but a worthwhile read if so
> 
> Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...
> 
> First ...
> The Island:
> 
> It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.
> 
> Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.
> 
> Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.
> 
> Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.
> 
> Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.
> 
> In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...
> 
> Now...
> 
> Sideways World:
> 
> Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.
> 
> The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.
> 
> It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.
> 
> How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.
> 
> But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.
> 
> They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).
> 
> A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.
> 
> But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.
> 
> For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.
> 
> In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.


----------



## Polcamilla

> Still, despite his grand plan, *Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will.* Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end.


I was talking with a friend earlier today and realized PRECISELY THIS.

Jacob and Lox's "mom" FORCED them into being on the island with one as protector and in so doing, robbed them of their free will. I never felt either one was fundamentally good/evil as the show's writers seem to imply, but by taking their free will from them, she broke them both *and* the Island in such a way that it caused all the problems with the Island and was drawn out for thousands of years.

In truth, it was unfixable until either their free will was restored to them or they were both destroyed. Ultimately it went in that latter direction. The one good thing Jacob did was break the potential cycle in letting his successor choose his fate rather than being forced into it.


----------



## jkeegan

BeanMeScot said:


> The body was missing in the sideways because it was a life after death. It wouldn't make sense for his body to be in the casket when EVERYONE there was dead!


Right, I totally agree that in the sideways the casket should be empty. But on the island, it was empty too. Until last night we didn't have all of the answers we were getting.. So we didn't know if we'd get some explanation of ghosts etc. But when Jack said "how are you here?", Christian's answer was the question "how are YOU here?".. Maybe I blended the question of why his body is missing from the casket and why ghosts are visible, but it had me realizing that we still and no reason for him to not be in that casket on the island.

(especially when we know that smokey was the vision Jack had of Christian that led him to the caves/water)


----------



## Polcamilla

jkeegan said:


> Right, I totally agree that in the sideways the casket should be empty. But on the island, it was empty too.


Obviously, it was Christian's skeleton down where the light was.


----------



## SocratesJohnson

Polcamilla said:


> In truth, it was unfixable until either their free will was restored to them or they were both destroyed. Ultimately it went in that latter direction. The one good thing Jacob did was break the potential cycle in letting his successor choose his fate rather than being forced into it.


He even went so far as to give Ben the freewill to kill him.


----------



## lordrichter

I am trying to understand why people think that Hurley lived an unusually long life, on the order of hundreds or thousands of years. Jacob and Jack were "christened" by drinking water after it was "blessed" by the previous job holder.

Hurley was "christened" by unceremoniously drinking water while the Island was turned off.

Then again, there is no reason to believe that the ceremony with Jack was anything more than an act by Jacob to give confidence.


----------



## jkeegan

lordrichter said:


> I am trying to understand why people think that Hurley lived an unusually long life, on the order of hundreds or thousands of years. Jacob and Jack were "christened" by drinking water after it was "blessed" by the previous job holder.
> 
> Hurley was "christened" by unceremoniously drinking water while the Island was turned off.
> 
> Then again, there is no reason to believe that the ceremony with Jack was anything more than an act by Jacob to give confidence.


Let's see. How about because Hurley said "you were a great #2" without laughing as if it were a joke or anything, instead of saying "well you'd have made a great #2 if Jack hadn't lied to us and I was actually a #1 for you to be #2 to. Imagine how cool it would be if when I tried using those powers to create my own rules, it actually worked, instead of us realizing Jack lied just to build my confidence? Jack's a jerk. Ok I'm gonna go inside and pretend to be nice to him now."


----------



## Mike Wells

jkeegan said:


> Ok a few more things:
> 
> Why there was an island at the bottom of the ocean in the sideways: I think the made sideways is a story world written by Hurley (or Jack, but probably Hurley..), and one of the elements was having the island out of their lives.. Locke had just threatened to sink the island and put it at the bottom of the ocean (which he actually failed to do), so Hurley put that into the story (in conjunction with his idea of making the bomb-dropping incident go the way they'd hoped, in his sideways story).


I also think the island at the bottom helps to date how long Hurley was the protector. I assume Hurley either sunk the island and left or it sank after he left, since obviously Hurley couldn't sink the island and still protect it. In the underwater CGI we see Dharmaville houses, and they aren't completely degraded and unrecognizable. So, I'd figure that Hurley was the caretaker for 50-100 years at most.

Not that it matters at all.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

jkeegan said:


> Let's see. How about because Hurley said "you were a great #2" without laughing as if it were a joke or anything, instead of saying "well you'd have made a great #2 if Jack hadn't lied to us and I was actually a #1 for you to be #2 to. Imagine how cool it would be if when I tried using those powers to create my own rules, it actually worked, instead of us realizing Jack lied just to build my confidence? Jack's a jerk. Ok I'm gonna go inside and pretend to be nice to him now."


On the other hand, we don't know if Hurley was #1 for 1,000 years or 15 minutes.

OK, maybe 15 minutes isn't long enough to figure out that Ben is a good #2. 6 weeks? Nah, give it a year. 

On the other other hand, nobody is saying that Hurley was #1 for centuries, only that he COULD have been. Which is certainly true.


Mike Wells said:


> I also think the island at the bottom helps to date how long Hurley was the protector. I assume Hurley either sunk the island and left or it sank after he left, since obviously Hurley couldn't sink the island and still protect it. In the underwater CGI we see Dharmaville houses, and they aren't completely degraded and unrecognizable. So, I'd figure that Hurley was the caretaker for 50-100 years at most.


??? The island never sank. Jack stopped it from sinking.


----------



## Mike Wells

Rob Helmerichs said:


> On the other hand, we don't know if Hurley was #1 for 1,000 years or 15 minutes.
> 
> OK, maybe 15 minutes isn't long enough to figure out that Ben is a good #2. 6 weeks? Nah, give it a year.
> 
> On the other other hand, nobody is saying that Hurley was #1 for centuries, only that he COULD have been. Which is certainly true.
> 
> ??? The island never sank. Jack stopped it from sinking.


In the first flash sideways in the first episode of season 6, right? We saw a flyby of the island, sunk. Or am I remembering incorrectly? I figured that was the island sunk sometime during the sideways, which could be any time or no time.


----------



## Mike Wells

here: 




How else would you reconcile having the island sunk? We assumed the first time that this was showing the result of the atomic bomb, which we now know to be false, but it does mean that the island does end up at the bottom of the sea, complete with Dharmaville houses and swing sets.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Mike Wells said:


> In the first flash sideways in the first episode of season 6, right? We saw a flyby of the island, sunk. Or am I remembering incorrectly? I figured that was the island sunk sometime during the sideways, which could be any time or no time.


But the sidewayverse isn't the real world. Hurley rules the island in the real world. In Hurley's world, the island never sank because Jack stopped it.


----------



## Roadblock

rlc1 said:


> What's your problem, man? Is it too much to ask for a little bit of explanation?


My problem was just with you saying not a single question was answered, clearly not true.



Family said:


> You only need an explanation of the Smoke Monster and other Island occurances if you believe that everything which happened was not a collective predeath experience. If the island was a predeath experience within each individual's conscious then the smoke monster in its quest to get off the island represented going back to what was before the flight.. If the smoke monster won... Jack wouldn't have faith, Kate wouldn't have resolved her stepfather's murder, Locke wouldn't have let go, Sawyer would have remained a con man and so on.


It's not a matter of what you believe. The island was real, not some predeath hallucination. Re-watch the ending!



jeff125va said:


> Wow. What a ******bag.


But he was right and he took the time to show you why, to which you couldn't even admit you were wrong.



aindik said:


> Anyone else get the sense that Hurley and Ben bailed on Jack too quickly? It didn't look like he had to die.


Well that looked like a pretty bad stab wound and I don't think Jack could perform surgery on himself, so I dunno what they could have done for him. I did think when he had his arm in the falling water that maybe it was going to heal him.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Loved the episode. Have read the whole thread. Tagged tons of posts I wanted to respond to, but I'm ending up deleting most of them since the response I wanted to give has already been given. However, below are a few that I still felt were relevant:



jwreiner said:


> TV shows definitely have a huge challenge in delivering a yes on the question you identify. But is it really so bad to want the answer to be yes. It is yes for a lot of other entertainment: books, movies, plays, musicals, operas. Charles Dickens managed to write serialized novels where he certainly seemed to know where things were headed from the start. So the writers having a plan would seem to be a good thing to hope for. Does anybody affirmatively hope the writers don't have a plan?


Of course it would be nice for TV shows to have a multi-year plan before they ever start. However, that's unrealistic. That's not how TV shows work. In LOST's case, ABC president Lloyd Braun thought it would be cool to have a drama show that was a mix between Survivor and Cast Away. He commissioned Jeffrey Lieber to write it. Braun didn't love Lieber's script, so he called in JJ Abrams to do a rewrite. Abrams called in Damon Lindelof to help him. Braun loved their version of the script and greenlighted the pilot. JJ directed the pilot, but then had to leave to direct Mission Impossible 3, so Damon called Carlton Cuse (they'd worked together on Nash Bridges) and asked him to join the team. Those two became the show runners.

So it wasn't like someone had this awesome idea and went and pitched it to the network. They made it up just to fulfill Braun's wishes for a TV pilot, and then they had to work it out from there. It's a very rare TV series when the writers can even outline the plot for a single season in advance. To expect that they had the entire show plotted out, even loosely, is extremely unrealistic.



ScottE22 said:


> That's what makes me think there's something more to this that no one has teased out yet. The previous 5 seasons can't be just backstory for the purgatory subplot. Can they?!?


No, the previous five seasons were backstory for the rest of the Island story that was told in S6. Just because there was the flash sideways this season doesn't mean there wasn't also a lot that happened on the Island. All of the Island timeline from this season was built upon the stuff that happened in S1-S5. I don't see how people think that becomes irrelevant just because the characters all died eventually. Did people really expect that at the end of this fictional story, all the characters would be made immortal?



Delta13 said:


> The funniest part for me was the beginning. There's a 2 hour retrospective going over everything that has happened on Lost, and immediately following that what starts the actual show? "Previously, on Lost ..."


That was for the people like me who didn't have time to watch the retrospective. It was also for people like me whose wives aren't nearly as into the show as I am, so their wives would never put up with two extra hours of recaps and interviews. I'll have to find time to watch that later, some night after she's gone to bed.


cheesesteak said:


> - I thought it funny that Faraday performed with Driveshaft with no apparent practice.


What makes you say he had no apparent practice? As far as we were led to believe, he was quite an accomplished musician in the sidewaysverse.



Turtleboy said:


> This is the way I see the progression of the show.
> 
> Imagine you had to drive from New York to Los Angeles. But, you have a year to do it. You can take any route you want, stop as much as you want, do what you want, but in one year, you have to be in L.A.
> 
> That's how I see the show. The writers knew where they started, knew where they had to end up, but made up most of it as they went along on the way.


I like that analogy, but I'd add an additional piece to it. Imagine you have a year to drive from NYC to LA, but you don't have to take any specific route. However, you do know that during the journey, you have to visit in Chicago, New Orleans, Seattle, Atlanta, and the Grand Canyon. You can hit them whenever it's convenient for your trip, and theoretically, you can hit them in whatever order you want, but you have to visit these specific places before arriving in LA. What roads you take when traveling between each, and how long you take between each, is entirely up to you.

That's how I think this show was written. They had some very loose ideas for some specific tentpole moments that they wanted to incorporate, and I believe they had a pretty good idea of where it would all end up. But the rest of the specifics were written on an episode by episode, and season by season basis. That's the only way it really works.


NatasNJ said:


> Frank survived a submarine explosion? PLEASE!


So did Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley. I don't see why it's so surprising that Lapidus survived too.


cwoody222 said:


> BUT neither Juliet or Sawyer would have known about pulling the plug on the island. So why would either one of them "imagine" that about the candy machine in their made-up world?


They're not imagining anything. It's one of those things that writers do, where one conversation by one group of people is a parallel to what's happening to another group of people, even though the two know nothing about each other.


Bryanmc said:


> Seems like Jacob could have been a little more forthcoming with Jack (I know, that's NEVER been a complaint before). Jacob got Desmond back to the island, so we have to assume that Jacob understood what Desmond could do. If he thought Desmond's abilities would only destroy the island, he wouldn't have brought him back.
> 
> So, why not just tell Jack, "Desmond needs to pull out the plug in the light tunnel, that will make MIB mortal, you kill him, then Desmond puts the plug back." I know they didn't have a lot of time, but it wouldn't take that long. I just did it right then. No time at all.
> 
> Jack could have had a knife at the ready right behind MIB at the top of the waterfall and run him through. No need to figure it out while fighting MIB.





Bryanmc said:


> But Jacob had Widmore bring Desmond back to the Island. Why do that if he didn't plan for him to do something?


My personal opinion is that Jacob didn't know how Desmond would be used. I don't think Jacob knew about the stone "cork" and that pulling it temporarily would be the loophole needed to kill MiB. Jacob had certainly never been down in that cave, since he knew what going in there had done to his brother. I think Jacob simply knew that Desmond was important and ensured that he was available when the time came for him to be used.



TiMo Tim said:


> Did the plane take off while the island was "unplugged"? Maybe the island was "visible" during this time.


Yes, that's why the runway was breaking apart under the wheels as it taxied. However, given that it was just flying over the Island as Jack was dying in the jungle, it seems that Jack got the "cork" back in just after it took off.


sakura panda said:


> I thought the wreckage at the end were shots of the SETS. The stage that where Lost first started and where so many of the scenes were shot. One of those end-of-series, never going to see this set again for any show, kind of shots.
> 
> I didn't think it had anything to do with the story or the island, just that is was the actual set, vacant and sad with no actors or cameras around anymore.


Thank you! I don't know why so many people were confused by this.


JYoung said:


> Again, whom did Jacob actually kill?
> (Ok, other than his brother)
> We never saw him kill anyone nor did we see him order the deaths of anyone.
> 
> On the other hand, Fake Locke slit Zoe's throat because he felt she was useless.


Jacob killed hundreds of people, by bringing them to the Island as pawns in his game with MiB. For example: there were only a handful of "candidates" on Oceanic 815, so the rest of the passengers and crew were collateral damage. Same with the crew of The Black Rock. Jacob certainly wasn't a benevolent protector of the Island.


Fool Me Twice said:


> It was part of the reshoots they had to do when some film was lost or ruined in transit from Hawaii to LA.


I realize that's the explanation they used, but I don't buy it. They clearly had the original shots showing what the wall looked like when Miles walked up the stairs. They could easily have redecorated that wall to look exactly the same, had they wanted to. But it was fairly clear from the way that scene was shot and edited, that they wanted to focus on the fact that the pictures on the wall changed. Whatever that plotline was leading to was abandoned and it would be nice if they'd just admit that rather than coming up with lame excuses.


janry said:


> If ABC had advertised _Lost_ as a fantasy show, I wouldn't feel slighted.


The writers have said specifically that they knew they'd get more viewers initially by making the storyline more straightforward, and that they could then introduce the more "fantastical" elements later when people were already invested in the show. I don't think ABC had the information to advertise it as a fantasy show from the beginning, and I'm not sure they would have greenlighted the pilot had they known.


wprager said:


> Aaron was certainly special to Claire (and to Charlie, and to Kate).


I was expecting Charlie to call Aaron "Turniphead" after Charlie "woke up."


jkeegan said:


> *3) The one moment where I teared up more than any other was actually when Hurley was talking to Ben and asked him if he'd be his #2. Michael Emerson, you da man. Insanely great acting. *Second behind that (which I thought would be first) was the James/Juliete scene.


This was the one moment where I came closest to crying. For me, that was the most powerful scene of the whole episode, because we knew that all Ben wanted all along was to be included in the leadership of the Island, and to be trusted and confided in by the leader, and now he was finally going to get that chance.

What a great show. I'm much more satisfied with the finale than I expected to be. I realize there are things left unanswered, and some of them would be nice to have answers to, but I'm perfectly fine with the way it was finished.


----------



## Turtleboy

Mike Wells said:


> here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How else would you reconcile having the island sunk? We assumed the first time that this was showing the result of the atomic bomb, which we now know to be false, but it does mean that the island does end up at the bottom of the sea, complete with Dharmaville houses and swing sets.


How else do you reconcile every single thing that happened in the sideways world?

None of it was real.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Mike Wells said:


> In the first flash sideways in the first episode of season 6, right? We saw a flyby of the island, sunk. Or am I remembering incorrectly? I figured that was the island sunk sometime during the sideways, which could be any time or no time.





Mike Wells said:


> here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How else would you reconcile having the island sunk? We assumed the first time that this was showing the result of the atomic bomb, which we now know to be false, but it does mean that the island does end up at the bottom of the sea, complete with Dharmaville houses and swing sets.


The Island being on the bottom of the ocean was part of the sidewaysverse, which it turned out, was not real. So for the entire season, we were headfaked into expecting that's what was going to happen, since we'd already seen it, and that was fLocke's stated goal. But in the end, it turned out that the Island on the bottom of the sea was just as much a fantasy as Jack having a teenage son or Sawyer and Miles being buddy cops.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Here's the Carlton Cuse/Bill Simmons podcast on the creative process of LOST (from 5/14). Most of the information has been covered in other interviews in the past, but this is a nice tidy one hour conversation that covers it all and it's a good listen.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/player?rd=1#/podcenter/?id=5189433&callsign=ESPNRADIO&autoplay=1


----------



## SNJpage1

23 pages must be a record on here. I read most and then skipped to write this so I dont know if some one else commented on this. I was wondering about one thing and since I deleted the past shows maybe some one could check for me. When Jacop knock his brother out the water carried him into the cave. However, when they show Jack back outside the cave the water is flowing out of the cave. That would explain how Jack got back out.


----------



## uncdrew

One of my other problems with the ending:

Penny and Desmond were there. Jack obviously had a very close connection with Desmond. But Penny? Jack and Penny weren't buds... Jack didn't need Penny in that church. She was there because Desmond needed her.

But Penny probably needed her kid. Or her dad. Or some of her close connections.

And her close connections might have needed some of their close connections.


The chain probably goes on to where I'd be in that church too, because someone connected to someone was connected to me. And most likely I'll need my daughters there. And they'll need their kids there. And so on...

Perhaps I'm rambling, but I did think that immediately (because as I posted earlier, this does actually match my belief on the afterlife). The chain connects almost all of human kind. Or at least more than a few dozen people. I should probably sue Lost for stealing my ideas...



Ok, so who was left on the island after Lapidus flew them out and our boy Jack bit it?

Hurley
Ben
Desmond

Any others still around?
Any of Widmore's crew still around?
Any Losties or Tailies still left?
What about that scary dude with the beard?


----------



## Polcamilla

DevdogAZ said:


> The Island being on the bottom of the ocean was part of the sidewaysverse, which it turned out, was not real. So for the entire season, we were headfaked into expecting that's what was going to happen, since we'd already seen it, and that was fLocke's stated goal. But in the end, it turned out that the Island on the bottom of the sea was just as much a fantasy as Jack having a teenage son or Sawyer and Miles being buddy cops.


I took it simply as 'The Island is in a state in the Sideways 'verse where it in no possible way can influence the lives of the central characters'.


----------



## uncdrew

SNJpage1 said:


> 23 pages must be a record on here.


For a TV show, perhaps.

But we've gone way longer on far less (seemingly) interesting topics.


----------



## Mike Wells

Turtleboy said:


> How else do you reconcile every single thing that happened in the sideways world?
> 
> None of it was real.


Ah, yes, I guess you are right. I figured there was a reason for showing us that, other than just one big red herring. But I guess there isn't any reason to think that events in the sideways would have anything to do with the live events.


----------



## gossamer88

uncdrew said:


> Ok, so who was left on the island after Lapidus flew them out and our boy Jack bit it?
> 
> Hurley
> Ben
> Desmond
> 
> Any others still around?
> Any of Widmore's crew still around?
> Any Losties or Tailies still left?
> *What about that scary dude with the beard?*


Is this who you're referring to?
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Tom


----------



## Polcamilla

uncdrew said:


> ...But Penny probably needed her kid. Or her dad. Or some of her close connections.
> 
> And her close connections might have needed some of their close connections.
> 
> The chain probably goes on to where I'd be in that church too, because someone connected to someone was connected to me. And most likely I'll need my daughters there. And they'll need their kids there. And so on...
> 
> Perhaps I'm rambling, but I did think that immediately (because as I posted earlier, this does actually match my belief on the afterlife). The chain connects almost all of human kind. Or at least more than a few dozen people. I should probably sue Lost for stealing my ideas...


I was talking with some friends about this (specifically, about Aaron---Claire and Kate needed him and could not have progressed without him, but he obviously would've needed other people who weren't there and knew him as a grown-up, not a baby).

I think it's the one case where the concept they're communicating doesn't quite match up with what they were able to show on television.

I also believe that we are only redeemed with our loved ones and that this group salvation means that ultimately, all our differing connections form a great web of humanity all progressing together (more or less). Obviously, that couldn't be accurately portrayed in a single church in six seasons of television, so they gave us a stick-figure version to communicate the general idea.


----------



## uncdrew

gossamer88 said:


> Is this who you're referring to?
> http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Tom


Of course. I'm glad my description worked. 

What happened to Mr. Friendly?


----------



## uncdrew

Polcamilla said:


> I was talking with some friends about this (specifically, about Aaron---Claire and Kate needed him and could not have progressed without him, but he obviously would've needed other people who weren't there and knew him as a grown-up, not a baby).
> 
> I think it's the one case where the concept they're communicating doesn't quite match up with what they were able to show on television.
> 
> I also believe that we are only redeemed with our loved ones and that this group salvation means that ultimately, all our differing connections form a great web of humanity all progressing together (more or less). Obviously, that couldn't be accurately portrayed in a single church in six seasons of television, so they gave us a stick-figure version to communicate the general idea.


I'll accept it.

Other possible answers included:

Every individual gets there own "entrance to heaven" and if you were popular and well liked, you have to attend a ton of these events.

The afterlife is not real

You smell funny


----------



## Fool Me Twice

gossamer88 said:


> Is this who you're referring to?
> http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Tom





uncdrew said:


> Of course. I'm glad my description worked.
> 
> What happened to Mr. Friendly?


If only there was some database with all known LOST information, and a conveniently supplied link to that specific entry....


----------



## Polcamilla

uncdrew said:


> Other possible answers included:


[SHANNON]



Do I *have* to be saved with him? He smells funny.

[/SHANNON]


----------



## gossamer88

uncdrew said:


> Of course. I'm glad my description worked.
> 
> What happened to Mr. Friendly?


From Lostepia:
_Sawyer, however, shot and killed Tom anyway. Sawyer stated, "That's for takin' the kid off the raft," (i.e. the kidnapping of Walt). When questioned by Hurley, Sawyer said he didn't believe that Tom's declaration of surrender was genuine._


----------



## desulliv

wouldworker said:


> It was a TV show, not a documentary.





dagojr said:


> This has to be the best comment EVER!!! lol


+1. That was a guffaw out-loud moment.


----------



## BeanMeScot

Polcamilla said:


> I was talking with some friends about this (specifically, about Aaron---Claire and Kate needed him and could not have progressed without him, but he obviously would've needed other people who weren't there and knew him as a grown-up, not a baby).
> 
> I think it's the one case where the concept they're communicating doesn't quite match up with what they were able to show on television.


I've started to explain my viewpoint on this a couple of times and gave up but a couple of people have touched on something similar. Even though we "saw" Aaron as a baby doesn't mean that's really what he was. We were looking at "souls". The filmaker is making a judgement on how to project what they look like to us. Just because we see him as a baby doesn't mean he wasn't also there as an adult. The same way that time had no meaning there, neither did what they looked like. To Jack, they looked like they did on the island. To each other, the ones that were together long after the island (those that were married, for example), they might have looked different. It's how I have rationalized it, anyway.


----------



## BeanMeScot

jkeegan said:


> Right, I totally agree that in the sideways the casket should be empty. But on the island, it was empty too. Until last night we didn't have all of the answers we were getting.. So we didn't know if we'd get some explanation of ghosts etc. But when Jack said "how are you here?", Christian's answer was the question "how are YOU here?".. Maybe I blended the question of why his body is missing from the casket and why ghosts are visible, but it had me realizing that we still and no reason for him to not be in that casket on the island.
> 
> (especially when we know that smokey was the vision Jack had of Christian that led him to the caves/water)


I think MIB removed the body so Jack would be more likely to believe that he was really seeing Christian.


----------



## Polcamilla

BeanMeScot said:


> I've started to explain my viewpoint on this a couple of times and gave up but a couple of people have touched on something similar. Even though we "saw" Aaron as a baby doesn't mean that's really what he was. We were looking at "souls". The filmaker is making a judgement on how to project what they look like to us. Just because we see him as a baby doesn't mean he wasn't also there as an adult. The same way that time had no meaning there, neither did what they looked like. To Jack, they looked like they did on the island. To each other, the ones that were together long after the island (those that were married, for example), they might have looked different. It's how I have rationalized it, anyway.


I keep picturing the director showing it a little more literally and it comes out like a dimented Wizard of Oz scene:

Jack: I had this other life and you were there and you were there and you were there and--(sees grown-up Aaron) who the hell are YOU?!
Grown-up Aaron: I'm Aaron.
Jack: Oh.
_*crickets*_


----------



## vman

Fool Me Twice said:


> Someone from Bad Robot's take on the Finale


This is interesting, but I don't buy the bit about why Ben is not in the church. If it was only supposed to be people included in the ending that was written at the time of the pilot, would Juliette and Libby be there?


----------



## pcguru83

dvdflix said:


> Interesting thoughts on what the ending meant:
> 
> http://chud.com/articles/articles/2...ST039S-BIG-GNOSTIC-WET-FART-ENDING/Page1.html


That's some good stuff right there. He nails a large part of the reason that I felt the ending was corny.



> To spend six years with these characters, in these increasingly bizarre scenarios, going through pain with them, examining the most basic aspects of good and evil... just to suddenly say 'What really matters is that they were important to one another' is whiplash inducing. Over six years the show kept widening the canvas, pulling back to show us more of the picture. Then at the last moment it slams to the most simplistic, trite place it could end up. The better ending would have been pulling back on the canvas to show that it was all fractal - 'As above, so below' - that the larger picture was the smaller picture. Instead the show dumped this for an easy, lazily metaphysical ending.
> 
> Let's put it this way: any ending for a show like Lost that feels like it could more or less be used to end any other TV show in history is probably an oversimplified ending. The sappy afterlife stuff is an epilogue, not an ending, and it's an epilogue we didn't need. We didn't need to know what happens to the characters after they die, and finding out adds nothing to them or their stories.


Even after a second watching, I'm just as disappointed, if not more so, in how things were "wrapped up". Ultimately, I'm not really even all that upset that we didn't get "answers". Quite frankly, I wasn't expecting them in the first place. All I really wanted was for the sixth and final season to make a bit more sense in the overall narrative of the story. Lost failed in that regard in my opinion.

Has it effected my overall opinion of Lost? I honestly anticipated at some point buying the Blu-ray box set and settling in for a Lost marathon. My wife and I both agreed that neither of us really have any desire to do that at this point. What's the purpose? Most of what we really loved about the first few seasons ends up not really mattering, so what's the point.


----------



## ahartman

HoosierFan said:


> Anyone else watching WEWS in Cleveland? The signal is totally screwed up, stuttering and barely watchable. They had a live chat going on their website which they shut down at 9:54 because that is all anyone was talking about.
> 
> Nice timing!


We tried watching for about 20 minutes and gave up. I grabbed a torrent this morning and we watched it this afternoon.


----------



## Keith_R90210

I left last night's episode absolutely hating the ending and feeling completely gypped. The actual episode itself was an emotional roller coaster ride for me though and there was a lot that I liked/loved about the episode.

I took some time to think over what I saw and make my way through about half of this thread and I think I've finally decided that I liked it and perhaps even loved it. I plan on re-watching it this weekend and then it will hopefully click for me completely.

I completely agree with those that say this show has been centered on the characters for the past 6 years, and that while the island is certainly an interesting aspect of it all, not everything about it needs to be resolved. For me the biggest emotional drain (and the aspect which had me on the verge of tears all evening) was the stuff involving the characters and the final conclusion.

Initially I hated the last 10 minutes and all the stuff involving the Sideways stuff but upon reading the thread today it all clicked for me and I'm now coming around to it and seeing the greatness of it. My final thoughts on this will come with my rewatch this weekend. I particularly like this thought of Desmond as the constant in it all who engineered ways to reunite the survivors so that they could progress forward. 

Other things which I loved about this episode:

1.The individual scenes of each character remembering and letting go (particularly Jin and Sun, Sawyer and Juliette)

2. The brutal and epic fight between Jack and Locke on the cliffs. I felt as though the series had been setting us up for this since the discovery of the hatch in season one and the exchange between Jack and Kate about "our Locke problem" at that time.

3. Jack coming full circle. I found this to be a little contrived but I still liked it a lot and the final shot of his eyes closing was just heart-touching and beautiful, and Vincent lying next to him.. I about cracked here.

4. The final final reunion scene. I loved this and it was so great to see after all these people had gone through. I'll be really analyzing this on my second watch.

5. The score. Perfect at all the right times. I would love to get a Lost soundtrack if they have one. The music in the series is great and the music in this finale just was outstanding.

The final shot of the wreckage was finally what symbolized to me that it was all over. I found this to be the saddest scene in the entire show and it was the one which left me with the big sense of grief that others in the thread mentioned.

That's it for now, I'm sure I'll have more to chime in on after watching it again.


----------



## Solver

Who would have guess it was all just a snow globe?


----------



## jkeegan

Solver said:


> Who would have guess it was all just a snow globe?


Eh, a *bloody* snow globe...


----------



## zordude

The DVD art on amazon for the complete collection amused me. Clearly whoever designed it didn't watch the show "All the mysteries will be revealed" indeed... LOL


----------



## lpamelaa

OK, I may end up smeeking, but I just can't keep up with the thread!

I saw a couple people complain that Helen wasn't at the church with Locke. "Helen" only existed in the flash-sideways. Remember, Helen was a phone sex operator that wheelchair-Locke created a fantasy around. I classify her as I do David who also only existed in the flash-sideways.

How I wish I could watch Richard learn about the modern world. He came to the Island on the Black Rock and left on a jet airplane. There was a moment (hope I didn't imagine it) where he looked confused about operating the seatbelt. That's when I realized that he has an ADVENTURE in store for him when they land!

I believe that Juliette's dying words to Sawyer were actually here talking in the flash-sideways. "It worked." And I recall her muttering something strange about going Dutch to Sawyer as she died. Anyone have that dialogue to match up??

Watching "The End" reminded me of my thoughts on the Pilot. Watching the pilot, I thought LOST would be about how these diverse characters learn to live together and create a new society of their own. Of course, the mysteries spiraled deeper and deeper and sucked me in. But, I'm the in the camp that at its heart, it was mostly about the characters so I'm satisfied with the ending.


----------



## zordude

lpamelaa said:


> How I wish I could watch Richard learn about the modern world. He came to the Island on the Black Rock and left on a jet airplane. There was a moment (hope I didn't imagine it) where he looked confused about operating the seatbelt. That's when I realized that he has an ADVENTURE in store for him when they land!


I don't think he was any stranger to the modern world.

From lostpedia:



> Richard had on occasion left and returned to the Island. In the outside world, he monitored John Locke's early life, having visited him as a baby and at age five. He also presented himself as a recruiter for Mittelos Bioscience, helping to bring Juliet to the Island in 2001.


----------



## lpamelaa

Demandred said:


> When Desmond went into the cave, he passed a skeleton. Whose skeleton was it? And why would they introduce another mystery like that in the finale?


I immediately thought of Indian Jones and the Last Crusade and muttered "Only a penitent man shall pass."


----------



## madscientist

lpamelaa said:


> I saw a couple people complain that Helen wasn't at the church with Locke. "Helen" only existed in the flash-sideways. Remember, Helen was a phone sex operator that wheelchair-Locke created a fantasy around. I classify her as I do David who also only existed in the flash-sideways.


That's not true. Helen was real; Locke met her at a 12-step program for "kids who hate their parents" or something. They dated for a while and Locke was going to ask her to marry him (got a ring and everything) but when Locke helped his father with one last con and Helen found out, she dumped him (Locke).

it's true that in S1 when Locke was talking to "Helen" on the phone, that was a phone sex operator but he was calling her "Helen" because he was messed up over losing the real Helen.



lpamelaa said:


> How I wish I could watch Richard learn about the modern world. He came to the Island on the Black Rock and left on a jet airplane. There was a moment (hope I didn't imagine it) where he looked confused about operating the seatbelt. That's when I realized that he has an ADVENTURE in store for him when they land!


Also not true. Richard has been off the Island _plenty_ of times; we saw him with young Locke for example, and he was part of the group that induced Juliet to come to the Island IIRC.


----------



## gchance

lpamelaa said:


> I saw a couple people complain that Helen wasn't at the church with Locke. "Helen" only existed in the flash-sideways. Remember, Helen was a phone sex operator that wheelchair-Locke created a fantasy around. I classify her as I do David who also only existed in the flash-sideways.


Completely and utterly wrong.

http://lost.wikia.com/wiki/Helen_Norwood

The first time we hear of Helen, she's a phone sex operator in Walkabout. Locke had called many phone sex operators in order to find one named Helen, who he could then not engage in phone sex, but have a faux relationship.

This faux relationship replaces the real one that he had with Helen Norwood, who he met at an anger management group, and who left him due to his obsession with his father.

Greg


----------



## balboa dave

zordude said:


> The DVD art on amazon for the complete collection amused me. Clearly whoever designed it didn't watch the show "All the mysteries will be revealed" indeed... LOL


Revealed does not mean answered.


----------



## zordude

balboa dave said:


> Revealed does not mean answered.


Heh! Maybe they should have just said "You will have lots of questions"


----------



## toddorts

greggt007 said:


> Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
> (havent read all 16 pages)


Yep, although it's not really supposed to be used for this purpose in that kind of plane. It's designed to help slow down during landing. You can use reverse thrust to back up, but you have to be very careful, because even a light tap on the brakes can cause the plane to tip onto its tail. I was cringing as he used differential reverse to turn as he was backing up. Definitely not something you'd do in the real world. 



jeff125va said:


> But I'm still thinking it could have been the Ajira flight. I certainly haven't seen anything conclusive that it isn't.


Maybe I can clear this up conclusively with a bit of technical knowledge.

The Ajira plane is a new generation 737, which is a mid- to long-range narrowbody aircraft. It's a relatively small airplane.

By contrast, the airplane shown on the beach at the end of "The End" is a very large wide-body aircraft. The Oceanic airplane is depicted in-flight on the show as either a 767-400 or an A330 (hard to tell since it was never seen up-close). In other words, it's a big plane, holding 250+ passengers. The airplane that the producers actually used in the pilot for the wreckage was a torn up, retired Delta L1011, which is an older widebody aircraft. It looks nothing like the plane that they show in-flight as the Oceanic plane, but that didn't matter, because it was just shown broken up on the beach. The way you can tell, though, is the engines, which are clearly seen both in the pilot episode and at the closing scene of the show. The L1011 had Rolls Royce RB-211 engines, which are pretty easy to pick out for pilots. They're large, high-bypass engines, and you can clearly see them laying on the beach at the end. The 737, on the other hand, the Ajira plane, had small General Electric CFM-56 engines. They look absolutely nothing like the engines you see laying on the beach in the closing shot during the credits.

There's no question about it. The wreckage seen at the end of the finale is the original Oceanic crash.



Steveknj said:


> So, who's going to start watching from the beginning this summer and parse out clues to the ending? I am going to try, depending on how busy my summer gets.


I'm going to wait until the Blu-Ray release in August, but I'm looking forward to it. I have a feeling the show will mean a lot more now that we're not trying to constantly search for answers, and can just enjoy the ride.



3D said:


> Yep, I was specifically thinking of this and the way Bernard acted when Jack visited him at his office. I don't remember if he said anything in particular, but something along the lines of "why wouldn't I remember John Lock?"


Brilliant! I can't believe I didn't pick up on it. I remember when I originally saw that episode that I thought the dialogue from Bernard was very cryptic and strange, but I forgot all about it. Looking back on it now, I think it's almost certain that he had already had his "wake up" moment.

I'm going to miss this show.


----------



## orangeboy

Hmmm... I just saw Terry O'Quinn on Star Trek: TNG's "The Pegasus" episode. He had (some) hair back then!


----------



## JYoung

DevdogAZ said:


> Jacob killed hundreds of people, by bringing them to the Island as pawns in his game with MiB. For example: there were only a handful of "candidates" on Oceanic 815, so the rest of the passengers and crew were collateral damage. Same with the crew of The Black Rock. Jacob certainly wasn't a benevolent protector of the Island.


I wouldn't say he killed anyone.
Does Jacob bear some responsibility for the deaths of the people he brought to the Island?
I'd say yes.

But we never saw him do any actual killing other than his brother and we didn't see him ordering the death of anyone.

Jacob was big believer in Free Will.
Possibly to a fault.


----------



## Delta13

There was a line that bothered me a lot at the time, but it fell out of mind (as so many things do these days ) till now. And I don't believe anyone mentioned it - yes, I read the whole thread even. It's when Desmond was getting setup by Jack to go down the waterfall. Desmond said something like, "Jack, it doesn't matter what happens here you know. Nothing matters here."

It bothered me at the time because it felt like it meant that 6 years of toiling and trying and living on the island didn't matter. Maybe I understood it wrong, but I wonder what the other learned souls on this board thought of that moment.

(I'm not being sarcastic either. If I was going to be sarcastic, I'd say something like "Calling Jeff's huge posts hills is giving hills more credit than they're due." Smile, Jeff.  )


----------



## gchance

I just finished watching the 24 finale, and it's made me appreciate Lost's all the more. I should have rewatched Lost instead.

Greg


----------



## SusieK

Now that the characters have come full circle, wouldn't it be great if the lost creators already had a movie in mind, that would further explain the specific lost mythologies missing from the finale (walt, dharma, etc), and that would take place on the island after Jack died, but before Hurley died, and would cover Hurley's naming of his own candidate, with the help? of Ben and all the castaway's spirits, past, present & future...(but before they all went into the light?!)


----------



## ct1

Dancar said:


> One other thing that hasn't been said here yet, what does the sequence of numbers mean?


They are the coefficients of the valenzetti equation:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Valenzetti_Equation


----------



## madscientist

Delta13 said:


> There was a line that bothered me a lot at the time, but it fell out of mind (as so many things do these days ) till now. And I don't believe anyone mentioned it - yes, I read the whole thread even. It's when Desmond was getting setup by Jack to go down the waterfall. Desmond said something like, "Jack, it doesn't matter what happens here you know. Nothing matters here."


That's what Desmond _thought_... but he was wrong. When Jack rescued him, that's what Desmond said: "I was wrong". And, that's why Desmond was yelling "No!" right after he pulled the plug on the island (when Jack and Locke were waiting at the top of the waterfall): he realized he'd been wrong.

Similar to how Jack was wrong (he didn't think pulling the plug would destroy the island) and FLocke was wrong (he didn't think that Desmond was a weapon against MIB... but he was, in a way, since pulling the plug made FLocke mortal again). No one, except maybe Jacob (or maybe not), really understood everything that would happen when Desmond pulled the plug.


----------



## ct1

madscientist said:


> No one, except maybe Jacob (or maybe not), really understood everything that would happen when Desmond pulled the plug.


I agree that Jacob didn't really understand everything. He said he made a mistake when he freed the smoke monster, I don't think he really understood the nature or consequences of messing with the light.


----------



## jkeegan

Delta13 said:


> There was a line that bothered me a lot at the time, but it fell out of mind (as so many things do these days ) till now. And I don't believe anyone mentioned it - yes, I read the whole thread even. It's when Desmond was getting setup by Jack to go down the waterfall. Desmond said something like, "Jack, it doesn't matter what happens here you know. Nothing matters here."
> 
> It bothered me at the time because it felt like it meant that 6 years of toiling and trying and living on the island didn't matter. Maybe I understood it wrong, but I wonder what the other learned souls on this board thought of that moment.
> 
> (I'm not being sarcastic either. If I was going to be sarcastic, I'd say something like "Calling Jeff's huge posts hills is giving hills more credit than they're due." Smile, Jeff.  )


Smiling.

Desmond was wrong. Here's what happened:

Widmore put Desmond in that room with the coils to test whether he could withstand huge amounts of electomagnetic radiation (Jacob told Widmore parts of that it seems). During that test, Desmond was near death, and that combined with the radiation allowed him to briefly glimpse the sideways afterlife (as did Juliete right before death).

Desmond came back from that and felt confident, since he knew he'd meet Penny there and that his friends were there. Since he has previously seen the future multiple times, he probably assumed that that he was going to be there someday, and that something would lead him to that. He remembered being on 815 in that vision.

When he was being tied up to go down, he told Jack that this world on the island didn't matter, because at the bottom of the well was another world. He thinks that what he saw is at the bottom of the well. He tells Jack that he was on 815 with Jack, and it landed, and that they can all go down into the cave to that world. Desmond says the island world doesn't matter because his vision is of 815 landing (2004) with no island in play, so how could this island 2007 time matter?

Jack says he's already tried that (referring to the bomb, where he tried changing the past), and it failed. What happened, happened. There is no reset switch. What happens there on that island matters a LOT.

Desmond goes down, removes the cork, the light goes out. He screams something like "no! It didn't work!" since he's not on 815. But he won't be on 815 for many many many years, until after he's lived out his years with Penny and his kid Charlie.

Hills got nothin on my posts!


----------



## jkeegan

gchance said:


> I just finished watching the 24 finale, and it's made me appreciate Lost's all the more. I should have rewatched Lost instead.
> 
> Greg


:up: :up: :up:


----------



## jkeegan

SusieK said:


> Now that the characters have come full circle, wouldn't it be great if the lost creators already had a movie in mind, that would further explain the specific lost mythologies missing from the finale (walt, dharma, etc), and that would take place on the island after Jack died, but before Hurley died, and would cover Hurley's naming of his own candidate, with the help? of Ben and all the castaway's spirits, past, present & future...(but before they all went into the light?!)


Personally, my answer, no. I think that would be horrible. I cringe at the thought of how bad any future Lost thing would be.


----------



## nyny523

pcguru83 said:


> Has it effected my overall opinion of Lost? I honestly anticipated at some point buying the Blu-ray box set and settling in for a Lost marathon. My wife and I both agreed that neither of us really have any desire to do that at this point. What's the purpose? Most of what we really loved about the first few seasons ends up not really mattering, so what's the point.


Because with great storytelling, it is about the journey - not the destination.


----------



## danterner

Mike Wells said:


> here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How else would you reconcile having the island sunk? We assumed the first time that this was showing the result of the atomic bomb, which we now know to be false, but it does mean that the island does end up at the bottom of the sea, complete with Dharmaville houses and swing sets.


I reconcile it like this:

The island has been around for a LONG time, perhaps since time began. During that time, it has had many protectors. We know some of them. If we were to chart it out, it would go like this:

X, Mother, Jacob, Jack, Hurley, Y

Where X is an indeterminate number of predecessor protectors, and Y is an indeterminate number of successors to Hurley, who served for an indeterminate length of time. At some point during Y, the world ends. Maybe dozens of millenia into the future, whatever. It ends. Something happens and the island sinks. (I guess technically it could end during Hurley's reign, and there is no Y, but I'd like to think that he served for a long long time with great success and then then happily retired, turning the reigns over to someone new). That all happens in "the real world."

Then, there's the sideways world. The afterlife. Purgatory. Whatever you want to call it. The events of the sideways world happen outside of time. There is no "now" there. Hurley's reign on the island (however long it lasted) is over. We can't pin a date to purgatory, but everyone there has long moved on from the real world. In the opening scenes of this season, we see sideways-815 flying over the sunken island. Our first assumption is that the island is under water because of the bomb. We later assume that the island is under water because MIB's plan succeeded. But neither of these are correct. In actuality, the island is underwater simply because, at some point during Y, the world ended and the island sank (or vice versa).

Arguments like "but after millenia there shouldn't still be remnants of houses, or the remains of the foot, or a swingset, etc" can be resolved because time is different on the island. Witness the condition Adam and Eve were in even though the bodies were presumably 2,000 years old, or the missile test time difference, or the time jumping. The island is full of time anomalies; I'm certainly not going to let the fact that there were some surviving structures bother me (at least not too much). [For practical reasons, there were surviving structures so that we the viewing audience would recognize the topography as being The Island. If there were nothing recognizable, we wouldn't know what we were seeing]. ...More concerning is the DHARMA shark that swam by -- how long do sharks live? I'll reconcile that one by saying... um... the shark wasn't alive. It, too, was in purgatory.


----------



## ronsch

One thing that I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned yet is that Juliette was Jack's ex-wife in the Sideverse. Everyone had been speculating that it would be Sarah since Julie Bowen had been in Hawaii shooting a Modern Family episode.


----------



## Carlucci

danterner said:


> I reconcile it like this:...
> Our first assumption is that the island is under water because of the bomb. We later assume that the island is under water because MIB's plan succeeded. But neither of these are correct. In actuality, the island is underwater simply because, at some point during Y, the island sank.


Makes sense, except that I believe it's one continuous camera shot from the window of the plane to the island below the sea, AND there's a Dharma shark swimming by as the camera descends, so unless the shark were reproducing with a genetic trait to have a Dharma birthmark, the writers were too clever for their own good.

I think the "purgatory" world is the collective imagination of all the castaways, and in that world they created for themselves, they desire the island to be down for the count.


----------



## danterner

Carlucci said:


> Makes sense, except that I believe it's one continuous camera shot from the window of the plane to the island below the sea, AND there's a Dharma shark swimming by as the camera descends, so unless the shark were reproducing with a genetic trait to have a Dharma birthmark, the writers were too clever for their own good.
> 
> I think the "purgatory" world is the collective imagination of all the castaways, and in that world they created for themselves, they desire the island to be down for the count.


I accounted for the shark in an edit to my post while you were writing your reply. I'm going with a "the shark is in purgatory, too" explanation. But I like your solution, too.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

danterner said:


> But neither of these are correct. In actuality, the island is underwater simply because, at some point during Y, the world ended and the island sank (or vice versa).


THE ISLAND NEVER SANK!

It was only shown as sunken in the sideways verse, which IS NOT REAL.

The island never sank!

Sinking, never did the island do.

Not sinking is what the island did.

Island sink. NOT!

Etc.

PS--The island never sank.


----------



## jeff125va

brianp6621 said:


> Go back and watch the episode again. If you compare the Ajira plane (which had no color around the windows at all, as seen by kate/sawyer from the beach when Lapidus is backing it up) to the plane on the beach at the end, they don't match at all. The plan on the beach has purple around the windows and pink and blue stripes down the side.
> 
> Edit... oops smeek.





brianp6621 said:


> Sorry I agree with him. Those 3 pictures are about as conclusive as it could be without matching the paint samples on a molecular level. It is a bit silly to even question it with that evidence laid out.


Yeah, I know. I just didn't see it the first time, that part of the picture was not that clear to me the first time I looked at it, and it didn't look like the rest of that side of the plane surrounding the windows was still there. I thought it could have been a dark color from the burnt out inside of the plane, rather than the outside.

Anyway my response was not to the facts that were stated, but the arrogance with which they were stated. I thought the rest of my post made it clear that I was acknowledging that I was wrong (the square windows, Kate saying she had missed Jack, etc.), and yet I still get an insulting response like that. No biggie, that's what the ignore list is for.


----------



## ronsch

Rob Helmerichs said:


> THE ISLAND NEVER SANK!
> 
> It was only shown as sunken in the sideways verse, which IS NOT REAL.
> 
> The island never sank!
> 
> Sinking, never did the island do.
> 
> Not sinking is what the island did.
> 
> Island sink. NOT!
> 
> Etc.
> 
> PS--The island never sank.


Tell us what you really think!


----------



## Fool Me Twice

True story: I still haven't been able to sleep yet. Zero hours. Literally.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

ronsch said:


> Tell us what you really think!


OK.

I think the island never sank.


----------



## danterner

Rob Helmerichs said:


> THE ISLAND NEVER SANK!
> 
> It was only shown as sunken in the sideways verse, which IS NOT REAL.
> 
> The island never sank!
> 
> Sinking, never did the island do.
> 
> Not sinking is what the island did.
> 
> Island sink. NOT!
> 
> Etc.
> 
> PS--The island never sank.


Lol 

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here, Rob. ;-)

Yesterday I was torn between (1) Jack's dying vision, and (2) purgatory is a collective place their souls all met up in after death. Today I've decided that #2 resonates much better with me and is a much more satisfying, and spiritual, conclusion to the show. I think the sideways world (purgatory) is very much real. I have no problem with thinking that purgatory is somewhere outside of time, and that the island did really sink at some point in the "real world" (far after the events surrounding our LOST characters), and that this is reflected in the undersea topography of purgatory.


----------



## LordKronos

jeff125va said:


> Anyway my response was not to the facts that were stated, but the arrogance with which they were stated. I thought the rest of my post made it clear that I was acknowledging that I was wrong (the square windows, Kate saying she had missed Jack, etc.), and yet I still get an insulting response like that. No biggie, that's what the ignore list is for.


I provided what I and pretty much everyone here considered to be indisputable proof that the end scene plane was the Oceanic plane, not the Ajira plane. You may have attempted to acknowledge that, but you did so on the basis that there was still wiggle room...maybe there's another reason why they look the same.

You say I insulted you, but please specify when I did? I suggested it was nuts for anyone to believe that the end plane was the same as the Ajira plane, and that, although there was additional evidence proving they were 2 different planes, I wouldn't waste my time linking to such evidence merely for the benefit of those insane enough to believe in such ridiculous theories (because if clear proof isn't convincing, additional proof probably won't do any more good, so why bother). However, according to you, you believed me that they were 2 separate planes. If that's the case, you were not in the class of people I was calling insane, so where was the insult?

You can add me to your ignore list if it pleases you. I have no history of behaving badly in these forums, so if you want to ignore me merely because you didn't like what I said, then I guess I have no problems with you not contributing to any future discussion I contribute in any of these forums.

(Edited to clarify wording on which planes I was referring to)


----------



## ahartman

HoosierFan said:


> Anyone else watching WEWS in Cleveland? The signal is totally screwed up, stuttering and barely watchable. They had a live chat going on their website which they shut down at 9:54 because that is all anyone was talking about.
> 
> Nice timing!


http://ohiomediawatch.wordpress.com/

Link to what happened. Looks like Lost is being reshown on Saturday evening again as well.


----------



## unicorngoddess

pcguru83 said:


> Has it effected my overall opinion of Lost? I honestly anticipated at some point buying the Blu-ray box set and settling in for a Lost marathon. My wife and I both agreed that neither of us really have any desire to do that at this point. What's the purpose? Most of what we really loved about the first few seasons ends up not really mattering, so what's the point.


I honestly thought about cancling my pre-order yesterday. I almost did. Then I thought, I may as well finish off the set...and plus, I'm hoping for some behind the scenes insight on WTF was going through their heads on this one...I don't know.

When I read fans here saying how much they loved the ending, I can see their point of view. But when I hear other people explain why they thought it was a letdown, I'm ultimately brought right back to that opinion.

I finally decided last night that, in the end, the ending just isn't going to ever sit right with me. Why should I have to decide what was the most important aspect of the show for me. If the show was just about the characters this whole time, why did they even bother writing this HUGE story arch involving the mysteries of the island? I mean, did they make webisode episodes and random easter eggs laying around for the characters of the show? No. They had this HUGE focus on the island the whole time...I don't care what people may say about the writers claiming it was always about the characters. There were Hanso commercials that would pop up all over the place when you watched Lost that would lead you to websites, phone numbers, etc. All of that had to do with digging deeper into the mystery of the island. So you can't just say that the show was never about that six years later. People invested their interest into theorizing what it was all about.

In the end, even though I know it would be impossible for the writers to satisfy EVERYONE, I feel like they should have at least made an attempt to write an ending that would cover the island mysteries and the character's stories.

This shouldn't be mistaken for me saying, "THEY DIDN'T ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS!" Because I know that they did at least touch on SOME of those mysteries. But what are we left with? We still don't know for sure if the smoke monster was MIB's soul or if the smoke monster was down in that cave before and took the form of MIB. In a way, season 6 just added more questions than answers when it should have been focusing on answering already existing questions or something. And that's what's frustrating. Even through this season they were creating more mystery...why bother bringing up new mysteries if you had no intention of resolving them?

And after saying all that, it's not to mean that I don't appreciate the way they ended the characters' storylines. It was a sweet moment where we got to see everybody happy for once. It was very touching. And since a lot of people have compared this to reading a book with your favorite characters, etc...I feel as if I got to the climax of this book and things were just coming to a head...and then I skipped to the last chapter to find out how it ends.


----------



## hefe

Rob Helmerichs said:


> THE ISLAND NEVER SANK!
> 
> It was only shown as sunken in the sideways verse, which IS NOT REAL.
> 
> The island never sank!
> 
> Sinking, never did the island do.
> 
> Not sinking is what the island did.
> 
> Island sink. NOT!
> 
> Etc.
> 
> PS--The island never sank.


Of course not.

The ocean rose.


----------



## Hunter Green

jkeegan said:


> And by the way - apostles of the Faraday institute were always right! What happened, happened!!!!! Woohoooo!!!!!!


I wish I were more about "I told you so" because I've got this one _and_ being half right (and more right than anyone else, notably Rob) about the idea that the flashsideways was really a flashforward, and that the two stories were not interacting bilaterally. But I'll take my share of crow for not being right about _how_ the flashsideways followed the "current" storyline, not even close; but then no one was.



Mike Wells said:


> Not all of the losties were in the church. Plus, desmond and Mrs. Widmore had the discussion about Daniel and not "taking" him yet. So, Ben gets time to be with his daughter and Rousseau, maybe Michael and Walt are still catching up.


We know Faraday (and presumably Charlotte) are not coming because Desmond said he wasn't taking them (yet) to Eloise. Michael didn't come because he was stuck as a ghost on the island. But why not Lapidus, Miles, and Richard? I'm not satisfied with any of the explanations on this thread.



jkeegan said:


> During that test, Desmond was near death, and that combined with the radiation allowed him to briefly glimpse the sideways afterlife (as did Juliete right before death).


While this theory does fit everything, I'm not sure I buy it as certain. But it does beat anything else I've got to explain what was in Desmond's mind all through the season six main storyline. I think this is about the only big mystery I feel didn't get answered and needed an answer, in fact.



wombat94 said:


> 2. I should have really realized this, back in Ab Aeterno, but with one little reference to Captain Hanso of the Black Rock, in retrospect, that answered all the questions for me satisfactorily about the Dharma Initiative. It was financed by the Hanso foundation - a cover organization for Jacob to keep funnelling potential replacement candidates to the island. To me it even explains the airdrops of supplies in 2004/2005 from the Dharma initiative - Jacob calls for supplies when he needs them in order to help new arrivals on the island.


I'm not sure if this is what the creators intended, but it's brilliant, and it _should_ be.



SugarBowl said:


> What heading did they have to fly on to escape? How were they able to just fly away?


Because Jacob wasn't stopping them, and Hurley wouldn't. They explicitly answered this right in the show.



aindik said:


> For people considering whether the sideways was Jack's dying vision, are you including the entire sideways for the entire season, including parts of the sideways that had nothing to do with Jack? Seems weird for Jack to envision Hurley going on a date with Libby on the beach and then Hurley "remembering"? Or anyone else "remembering," or Hurley at a charity dinner, or Charlie and Desmond under water, or in a bar, or Sawyer going out on a a date with Charlotte, or anything like that.


I agree with you, but if I really, really, really wanted to convince myself it was just Jack's vision, I could probably explain that away by saying that's what Jack needed, since he was all about fixing everyone, so he needed to see everyone else get fixed, too. What tears it for me is that he was the last to understand, so it seems weird that in a vision happening all in his head, everyone else would understand -- and then start behaving in ways that only make sense based on them understanding -- before he did. But even that can be explained away. It just starts getting too hairy compared to the much more straightforward alternative, that it's just what Christian said it was.



SocratesJohnson said:


> I really like that Vincent showed up at the end and lay with Jack so he wouldn't be dying totally alone, given the sacrifice he just made.


Vincent lying down with Jack as he died was incredibly emotionally powerful. Even just typing this I'm tearing up thinking of it. But yeah, it seemed especially appropriate after Jack's oft-quoted creed about living together or dying alone.



http://www.woot.com/Blog/ViewEntry.aspx?Id=12857 said:


> 8) Somewhere Jack Shephard and Captain John Sheridan are sharing a drink and complimenting each other on their conflict resolution skills.


My wife and I also giggled when someone asked someone else, "Who are you? What do you want?"

After all the ranting in threads earlier this year about how the plane's unflyable with the broken window, I was tickled that they showed Lapidus taking us through them addressing every one of those points.

Am I satisfied? You betcha. After the finale I decided Lost is now my #3 favorite show in history. If you'd asked me two years ago, I would have said it probably won't even make my top 100. Even two weeks ago I was far from sure it'd be on the list, despite liking how things were going. The finale paid it all off for me.

Razzle dazzle!


----------



## 3D

uncdrew said:


> One of my other problems with the ending:
> 
> Penny and Desmond were there. Jack obviously had a very close connection with Desmond. But Penny? Jack and Penny weren't buds... Jack didn't need Penny in that church. She was there because Desmond needed her.
> 
> But Penny probably needed her kid. Or her dad. Or some of her close connections.
> 
> And her close connections might have needed some of their close connections.
> 
> The chain probably goes on to where I'd be in that church too, because someone connected to someone was connected to me. And most likely I'll need my daughters there. And they'll need their kids there. And so on...
> 
> Perhaps I'm rambling, but I did think that immediately (because as I posted earlier, this does actually match my belief on the afterlife). The chain connects almost all of human kind. Or at least more than a few dozen people. I should probably sue Lost for stealing my ideas...


It would have been cool if Kevin Bacon had an easter egg cameo in the background 

I also wanted to thank the regular posters that I've enjoyed reading these past few years. As you can see from my join date and post count, I mostly lurk on this site. I'd guess that 90% of my posts were in Lost threads because the discussions in them are usually too good to pass up. I know I don't post enough to be considered one of the regulars or even one that many would remember, but I've enjoyed the discussions nonetheless.

I think that the Stephen King influence on the writers is clear, and I'd be curious if a higher percentage of Stephen King fans were satisfied with the ending verses non fans. Many of King's books will tease the reader with great ideas that were ultimately just distractions on the main journey and never completely explained. If you're used to that style of storytelling, I'd guess that Lost's finale was not only more satisfying, but what you'd probably expect (for the record, I think the Finale, from an emotional standpoint, destroys anything I've read by King).

Finally, for those of you who think it will be a long time before a serialized drama sinks its teeth into you the same way Lost did, I highly recommend you be on the lookout for the Game of Thrones adaptation coming to HBO next year. It will never trigger the kind of threads that Lost has, if for no other reason than the source material is available (at lease for the first few seasons, but that's an entirely different topic). It does, however, have one hell of an amazingly epic storyline.


----------



## cheesesteak

unicorngoddess said:


> I honestly thought about cancling my pre-order yesterday. I almost did. Then I thought, I may as well finish off the set...and plus, I'm hoping for some behind the scenes insight on WTF was going through their heads on this one...I don't know.
> 
> When I read fans here saying how much they loved the ending, I can see their point of view. But when I hear other people explain why they thought it was a letdown, I'm ultimately brought right back to that opinion.
> 
> I finally decided last night that, in the end, the ending just isn't going to ever sit right with me. Why should I have to decide what was the most important aspect of the show for me. If the show was just about the characters this whole time, why did they even bother writing this HUGE story arch involving the mysteries of the island? I mean, did they make webisode episodes and random easter eggs laying around for the characters of the show? No. They had this HUGE focus on the island the whole time...I don't care what people may say about the writers claiming it was always about the characters. There were Hanso commercials that would pop up all over the place when you watched Lost that would lead you to websites, phone numbers, etc. All of that had to do with digging deeper into the mystery of the island. So you can't just say that the show was never about that six years later. People invested their interest into theorizing what it was all about.
> 
> In the end, even though I know it would be impossible for the writers to satisfy EVERYONE, I feel like they should have at least made an attempt to write an ending that would cover the island mysteries and the character's stories.
> 
> This shouldn't be mistaken for me saying, "THEY DIDN'T ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS!" Because I know that they did at least touch on SOME of those mysteries. But what are we left with? We still don't know for sure if the smoke monster was MIB's soul or if the smoke monster was down in that cave before and took the form of MIB. In a way, season 6 just added more questions than answers when it should have been focusing on answering already existing questions or something. And that's what's frustrating. Even through this season they were creating more mystery...why bother bringing up new mysteries if you had no intention of resolving them?
> 
> And after saying all that, it's not to mean that I don't appreciate the way they ended the characters' storylines. It was a sweet moment where we got to see everybody happy for once. It was very touching. And since a lot of people have compared this to reading a book with your favorite characters, etc...I feel as if I got to the climax of this book and things were just coming to a head...and then I skipped to the last chapter to find out how it ends.


:up:


----------



## ronsch

unicorngoddess said:


> This shouldn't be mistaken for me saying, "THEY DIDN'T ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS!" Because I know that they did at least touch on SOME of those mysteries. But what are we left with? We still don't know for sure if the smoke monster was MIB's soul or if the smoke monster was down in that cave before and took the form of MIB.


If I'm not mistaken this was definitively answered in the recap show.


----------



## betts4

I have been turning over and over in my head the bit that Jacob said about the candidates being 'flawed' and maybe I am remembering the quote wrong. I mean, we have seen thru the years all the problems these guys have in social skills, ethics and existing in a normal frame of life. We had con man, thieves, an arsonist, a couple murderers, infedelity, depression, and more..... 

Most of which we came to learn stemmed from a bad father. A father that was not there for them or not all that he could be and couldn't give them the guidance and self confidence that was needed. We started seeing this and it came to be that a lot of the original Losties had this issue. Jack, Locke, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Boone, Shannon, Claire, Walt (who had Michael there) who am I forgetting? Oh, and then Ben. 

So I wondered if that was the 'flaw' that caused them to be candidates - I mean there are millions of flawed people out there and there were probably some others on the plane. Nothing was shown of Rose and Bernard's parents or if they were flawed, but they got to stay with us from day one till the end. 

I know some of them were resolved. I don't know what that all means, except it is one of the things that was noticed early in the series.


----------



## Freshman JS

unicorngoddess said:


> I honestly thought about cancling my pre-order yesterday. I almost did. Then I thought, I may as well finish off the set...and plus, I'm hoping for some behind the scenes insight on WTF was going through their heads on this one...I don't know.
> 
> When I read fans here saying how much they loved the ending, I can see their point of view. But when I hear other people explain why they thought it was a letdown, I'm ultimately brought right back to that opinion.
> 
> I finally decided last night that, in the end, the ending just isn't going to ever sit right with me. Why should I have to decide what was the most important aspect of the show for me. If the show was just about the characters this whole time, why did they even bother writing this HUGE story arch involving the mysteries of the island? I mean, did they make webisode episodes and random easter eggs laying around for the characters of the show? No. They had this HUGE focus on the island the whole time...I don't care what people may say about the writers claiming it was always about the characters. There were Hanso commercials that would pop up all over the place when you watched Lost that would lead you to websites, phone numbers, etc. All of that had to do with digging deeper into the mystery of the island. So you can't just say that the show was never about that six years later. People invested their interest into theorizing what it was all about.
> 
> In the end, even though I know it would be impossible for the writers to satisfy EVERYONE, I feel like they should have at least made an attempt to write an ending that would cover the island mysteries and the character's stories.
> 
> This shouldn't be mistaken for me saying, "THEY DIDN'T ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS!" Because I know that they did at least touch on SOME of those mysteries. But what are we left with? We still don't know for sure if the smoke monster was MIB's soul or if the smoke monster was down in that cave before and took the form of MIB. In a way, season 6 just added more questions than answers when it should have been focusing on answering already existing questions or something. And that's what's frustrating. Even through this season they were creating more mystery...why bother bringing up new mysteries if you had no intention of resolving them?
> 
> And after saying all that, it's not to mean that I don't appreciate the way they ended the characters' storylines. It was a sweet moment where we got to see everybody happy for once. It was very touching. And since a lot of people have compared this to reading a book with your favorite characters, etc...I feel as if I got to the climax of this book and things were just coming to a head...and then I skipped to the last chapter to find out how it ends.


what questions would you like answered?

the one question you raise in this post was answered directly by flocke, when he said he used to have a body. you could argue that he was lying, but in the same way, you could argue that any answer they ever provide on any topic could be a lie.

most of the other questions i've seen raised may not have been answered directly, but the answers can be inferred from available information. for example, why couldnt babies conceived on island be born there? i think the answer is because Jacob made this a rule so he could tightly control who was there.


----------



## 3D

betts4 said:


> I have been turning over and over in my head the bit that Jacob said about the candidates being 'flawed' and maybe I am remembering the quote wrong. I mean, we have seen thru the years all the problems these guys have in social skills, ethics and existing in a normal frame of life. We had con man, thieves, an arsonist, a couple murderers, infedelity, depression, and more.....
> 
> Most of which we came to learn stemmed from a bad father. A father that was not there for them or not all that he could be and couldn't give them the guidance and self confidence that was needed. We started seeing this and it came to be that a lot of the original Losties had this issue. Jack, Locke, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Boone, Shannon, Claire, Walt (who had Michael there) who am I forgetting? Oh, and then Ben.
> 
> So I wondered if that was the 'flaw' that caused them to be candidates - I mean there are millions of flawed people out there and there were probably some others on the plane. Nothing was shown of Rose and Bernard's parents or if they were flawed, but they got to stay with us from day one till the end.
> 
> I know some of them were resolved. I don't know what that all means, except it is one of the things that was noticed early in the series.


I also wondered why he touched Sawyer and Kate as children. Were they really irreparably flawed by that point?


----------



## unicorngoddess

Freshman JS said:


> what questions would you like answered?


The natives...who were they? Why were they there? Did Jacob bring them all there? Why couldn't they be candidates? Why did there have to be a leader and why couldn't that leader ever be a candidate? What exactly were the rules of this "game"? Why didn't Jacob ever try to get another of the leaders of the Others to try to kill MIB...or did he? The Island...why did it seem to have magical healing abillities for some people but not others? Why did it have this ability to kind of be unstuck from time. How did it come to be that if you go down a well and turn a donkey wheel that you end up on the other end of the world. Who built that? Why?

I mean, some of them you can argue are just very trivial things when you look back on it. But at the time they were introduced they were pretty important. And most people were operating under an assumption that we would at least get some kind of explanation. It didn't even have to be a big, long lengthy one. Just some kind of passing mentioning of something for them to acknowledge...oh yeah, this is why that is. Like how long were people debating why Kate's name wasn't up on the wall...we finally got an answer to that and it took all of two seconds, "You became a mother." Awesome...see how easy that was. It's not like some of these things needed great, big complex answers, but some kind of brief explanation to touch on some of these things would have been nice. And I'm not talking about just in the final expisode...I'm talking about through this whole last season. I feel that's what they should have been trying to do along the way to the end.


----------



## Freshman JS

unicorngoddess said:


> The natives...who were they? Why were they there? Did Jacob bring them all there? Why couldn't they be candidates? Why did there have to be a leader and why couldn't that leader ever be a candidate? What exactly were the rules of this "game"? Why didn't Jacob ever try to get another of the leaders of the Others to try to kill MIB...or did he? The Island...why did it seem to have magical healing abillities for some people but not others? Why did it have this ability to kind of be unstuck from time. How did it come to be that if you go down a well and turn a donkey wheel that you end up on the other end of the world. Who built that? Why?


I think most of these either were answered indirectly or are impossible to answer.

Natives - I don't think there were any natives. different groups brought to / came to island over time and repeated the same pattern over and over, eventually killing each other or getting wiped out because they got too close to destroying the light. this happened over and over for a long time. this particular group was one of these groups.

I think they probably were candidates at one point, but got eliminated because they were corrupt or Jacob thought they would never accept the job (wanted to give a choice)

Jacob made a bunch of rules because that is what the protector gets to do. it's true, they never spelled out his rules and maybe it would have been nice if they did (although not sure why it matters). some of them are clear: babies cant be conceived/born on island, cant leave unless he wants you to, he and mib cant kill each other. basically, he was a messed up dude because of the way he was raised, and he ran things as a control freak. hurley clearly was going to be very different. some of the rules were left murky - who can kill jacob and how they have to do it.

Why didn't jacob try to kill mib - was against the rules.

The questions about why the island had magical healing powers (and selective application of those) and why it could skip through time - i think these are impossible to answer. I don't believe there is any way to answer them without just introducing another unanswerable mystery.

They showed the donkey wheel being built and why it was built. why would it work? again, a question that is impossible to answer. it's supernatural.


----------



## pcguru83

nyny523 said:


> Because with great storytelling, it is about the journey - not the destination.


That very notion is so contrived and cliche. I'm not buying it. Sure, the journey is fun, but there is more to it then that. I'm not denying that I haven't enjoyed the last five seasons. But that doesn't change the fact that I most definitely did NOT enjoy this last season, at least not at the same level that I did seasons past. We were riding along on this incredible journey, one that I followed like I've never followed any show before. Then right as we are approaching our destination, we make this wild departure from anything we've seen up to this point. It was a departure that, in my opinion, changed the whole feel of the series.

On a somewhat different note, I mostly agree with unicorngoddess, especially about the alleged importance of the characters. Of course the characters are important--they are arguably the most important part of any story. You can't have a plot without characters. But at the same time, you can't have characters without some plot device to justify their actions. They are equally important in any story. I don't understand how some are just able to almost completely disregard the plot we've been following for the last six years, all because the characters were compelling. A large number of the themes from the first five seasons are only tangentially related at best to the ultimate end game. But the characters in any half way interesting plot should be compelling! In the end, we ended up with a lopsided story. It's one that is too heavy on the characters and came up short on the plot. Admittedly, this is probably largely a personal preference to some, and many are obviously OK with this arrangement. But I firmly believe that much of the disappointment in how Lost wrapped up can be attributed to this lack of balance.

And just to be clear, I couldn't care less about answers. Seriously, I don't care one bit. My issue lies with the fragmented and disjointed feel of the series starting at the end of season five and moving into season six. With some tweaking, the story that we were ultimately told could have likely been told in only 2-3 seasons. During this very last leg, Lost "lost" its cohesiveness (no pun intended).


----------



## zordude

unicorngoddess said:


> And since a lot of people have compared this to reading a book with your favorite characters, etc...I feel as if I got to the climax of this book and things were just coming to a head...and then I skipped to the last chapter to find out how it ends.


I agree, as I said in the "were you satisfied" thread - it's like they gave me the "Yadda, yadda, yadda".



> Elaine: Yeah. I met this lawyer, we went out to dinner, I had the lobster bisk, we went back to my place, yada yada yada, I never heard from him again.
> 
> Jerry: But you yada yada'd over the best part.


----------



## betts4

3D said:


> I also wondered why he touched Sawyer and Kate as children. Were they really irreparably flawed by that point?


Well, Sawyer? because of his parents death? Kate? her father left her and her mom. And he touched Locke at a young age too, didn't he? (I may be remembering wrong). I forgot Jin and Sun and their father issues. Jin's was a good father that loved his son but Jin was ashamed of him and we fiind out that his mother was a whore. Sun's was a controlling a$$. I guess thinking about it, lots of the characters had mom issues too.


----------



## Supfreak26

ct1 said:


> I agree that Jacob didn't really understand everything. He said he made a mistake when he freed the smoke monster, I don't think he really understood the nature or consequences of messing with the light.


Jacob didn't free the smoke monster. He turned his brother into the smoke monster.



Carlucci said:


> Makes sense, except that I believe it's one continuous camera shot from the window of the plane to the island below the sea, AND there's a Dharma shark swimming by as the camera descends, so unless the shark were reproducing with a genetic trait to have a Dharma birthmark, the writers were too clever for their own good.
> 
> I think the "purgatory" world is the collective imagination of all the castaways, and in that world they created for themselves, they desire the island to be down for the count.


I wish they would've had some explanation for the Dharma sharks. I always thought those were pretty cool. I'm assuming they were just part of the experiments they were doing on the island.



unicorngoddess said:


> I honestly thought about cancling my pre-order yesterday. I almost did. Then I thought, I may as well finish off the set...and plus, I'm hoping for some behind the scenes insight on WTF was going through their heads on this one...I don't know.
> 
> When I read fans here saying how much they loved the ending, I can see their point of view. But when I hear other people explain why they thought it was a letdown, I'm ultimately brought right back to that opinion.
> 
> I finally decided last night that, in the end, the ending just isn't going to ever sit right with me. Why should I have to decide what was the most important aspect of the show for me. If the show was just about the characters this whole time, why did they even bother writing this HUGE story arch involving the mysteries of the island? I mean, did they make webisode episodes and random easter eggs laying around for the characters of the show? No. They had this HUGE focus on the island the whole time...I don't care what people may say about the writers claiming it was always about the characters. There were Hanso commercials that would pop up all over the place when you watched Lost that would lead you to websites, phone numbers, etc. All of that had to do with digging deeper into the mystery of the island. So you can't just say that the show was never about that six years later. People invested their interest into theorizing what it was all about.
> 
> In the end, even though I know it would be impossible for the writers to satisfy EVERYONE, I feel like they should have at least made an attempt to write an ending that would cover the island mysteries and the character's stories.
> 
> This shouldn't be mistaken for me saying, "THEY DIDN'T ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS!" Because I know that they did at least touch on SOME of those mysteries. But what are we left with? We still don't know for sure if the smoke monster was MIB's soul or if the smoke monster was down in that cave before and took the form of MIB. In a way, season 6 just added more questions than answers when it should have been focusing on answering already existing questions or something. And that's what's frustrating. Even through this season they were creating more mystery...why bother bringing up new mysteries if you had no intention of resolving them?
> 
> And after saying all that, it's not to mean that I don't appreciate the way they ended the characters' storylines. It was a sweet moment where we got to see everybody happy for once. It was very touching. And since a lot of people have compared this to reading a book with your favorite characters, etc...I feel as if I got to the climax of this book and things were just coming to a head...and then I skipped to the last chapter to find out how it ends.


The mysteries of the island are what sucked me in but it's the evolution of the characters that kept me around. I didn't realize this until after the finale. I found that I truly cared about most of the characters.

As for the smoke monster, the creaters have been very clear about this. The smoke monster = MIB. No questions about that.



Freshman JS said:


> I think most of these either were answered indirectly or are impossible to answer.
> 
> Natives - I don't think there were any natives. different groups brought to / came to island over time and repeated the same pattern over and over, eventually killing each other or getting wiped out because they got too close to destroying the light. this happened over and over for a long time. this particular group was one of these groups.
> 
> I think they probably were candidates at one point, but got eliminated because they were corrupt or Jacob thought they would never accept the job (wanted to give a choice)
> 
> Jacob made a bunch of rules because that is what the protector gets to do. it's true, they never spelled out his rules and maybe it would have been nice if they did (although not sure why it matters). some of them are clear: babies cant be conceived/born on island, cant leave unless he wants you to, he and mib cant kill each other. basically, he was a messed up dude because of the way he was raised, and he ran things as a control freak. hurley clearly was going to be very different. some of the rules were left murky - who can kill jacob and how they have to do it.
> 
> Why didn't jacob try to kill mib - was against the rules.
> 
> The questions about why the island had magical healing powers (and selective application of those) and why it could skip through time - i think these are impossible to answer. I don't believe there is any way to answer them without just introducing another unanswerable mystery.
> 
> They showed the donkey wheel being built and why it was built. why would it work? again, a question that is impossible to answer. it's supernatural.


Great post. The last paragraph somes up a lot of it. Will we ever understand all of the mysteries about the island? No. But neither did the characters in the show. Even Jacob was unaware of the cork in the bottom of the waterfall and what would happen if it were removed.

I look at this show like any other sci-fi show. How can spaceships travel at lightspeed and beyond? How does a lightsaber not project light to infinite? Where does the Force come from? How do the witches and warlocks in Harry Potter possess magical abilities? How did the ark kill all of the Nazis yet not harm you if you just close your eyes? How did he know that?

Some things you just have to accept as "it is what it is" and move on.


----------



## Family

I'm curious if there is any explanation for Jacob's cabin.


----------



## Bryanmc

nyny523 said:


> Because with great storytelling, it is about the journey - not the destination.


It's got to at least be a little about the destination. Doesn't matter how awesome the journey is if you end up in El Paso at the end of the ride.


----------



## JYoung

unicorngoddess said:


> I finally decided last night that, in the end, the ending just isn't going to ever sit right with me. Why should I have to decide what was the most important aspect of the show for me. If the show was just about the characters this whole time, why did they even bother writing this HUGE story arch involving the mysteries of the island? I mean, did they make webisode episodes and random easter eggs laying around for the characters of the show? No. They had this HUGE focus on the island the whole time...I don't care what people may say about the writers claiming it was always about the characters. There were Hanso commercials that would pop up all over the place when you watched Lost that would lead you to websites, phone numbers, etc. All of that had to do with digging deeper into the mystery of the island. So you can't just say that the show was never about that six years later. People invested their interest into theorizing what it was all about.


Which I never understood. It was obvious to me from Walkabout on that this was about the characters foremost and the Island mysteries were secondary.

The Island was like the land of Oz or Harry Potter's school. In the end, how detailed of an explanation do you need?

And all those webisodes and the like, were they the product of Cuse and Lindelof or the product of ABC marketing?
Because there is a difference.



unicorngoddess said:


> In the end, even though I know it would be impossible for the writers to satisfy EVERYONE, I feel like they should have at least made an attempt to write an ending that would cover the island mysteries and the character's stories.


IMO, they did.



unicorngoddess said:


> This shouldn't be mistaken for me saying, "THEY DIDN'T ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS!" Because I know that they did at least touch on SOME of those mysteries.


Uhm yeah, well, it does kind of sound like you are saying are saying that.



unicorngoddess said:


> But what are we left with? We still don't know for sure if the smoke monster was MIB's soul or if the smoke monster was down in that cave before and took the form of MIB.


Because this was already answered.



unicorngoddess said:


> In a way, season 6 just added more questions than answers when it should have been focusing on answering already existing questions or something. And that's what's frustrating. Even through this season they were creating more mystery...why bother bringing up new mysteries if you had no intention of resolving them?


Seems to me that the only real question that they added in Season six was "What was this sideways reality?" which was answered in the end.


----------



## uncdrew

SusieK said:


> Now that the characters have come full circle, wouldn't it be great if the lost creators already had a movie in mind, that would further explain the specific lost mythologies missing from the finale (walt, dharma, etc), and that would take place on the island after Jack died, but before Hurley died, and would cover Hurley's naming of his own candidate, with the help? of Ben and all the castaway's spirits, past, present & future...(but before they all went into the light?!)


A movie would be interesting, and do well.

But (unlike say, Sex and the City), it would utterly confuse anyone who didn't watch the show. You couldn't just go to that movie if you didn't watch the show. Unless the movie has so much set up that us TV viewers would be bored.

Not sure if it's been tried...


----------



## LordKronos

unicorngoddess:

The problem is that, a lot of things WERE answered but there's just been so much info over the last 6 years, nobody can seem to remember everything. That's why we keep seeing in this thread over and over again, "they never answered X" and then someone steps up to demonstrate that they did. You just demonstrated it with your smoke monster questions.

I'm going to answer a few of your questions as best as I can remember, and I hope that my memory is clear on what I do say (I didn't think they were important enough to make a mental note of for later reference).



> The natives...who were they? Why were they there?


As I recall, those were they Darma people. They setup a fake camp with the bamboo teepees (or whatever) and made themselves appear primitive. The camp was (I think) setup around one of the station entrances, which was buried (and inside the station, the losties even found the costumes in the lockers). They kidnapped walt (and maybe someone else), so presumably their disguise was meant as a cover in case they were caught.



> Why couldn't they be candidates?


How do we know they weren't? I think there was enough explanation in the Jacob scenes to indicate he brought a lot of people to the island for the job but they didn't all work out. I don't think they needed to focus on every failed attempt.



> Why did it have this ability to kind of be unstuck from time.


I think that delves into the realm of explaining HOW magic works. It's magic. There's no meaningful way to explain it that makes sense to the rules of our universe, so any attempt to explain how it works is no more sensible than just saying "that's how it is". It's on par with asking why in 7 seasons, Buffy the Vampire Slayer never answered the question of "exactly WHY do vampires die when you put a wood stake through their heart?". It's a magical property (or if not magic, something so advanced we couldn't understand it and thus might as well just be magic to us), and that's our baseline assumption to work from.



> How did it come to be that if you go down a well and turn a donkey wheel that you end up on the other end of the world. Who built that? Why?


We sort of had a parital explanation in Jacob's flashback episode a few weeks ago? The people that MIB joined up with were working on building something to tap into the energy and get off the island. Of course they were killed before it was finished. Presumably somebody else came along and finished it up. I'm thinking it was the Darma initiative. They were doing all sorts of experiments with the electromagnetic forces. Ben seemed to know all about the wheel (since he went there intentionally to turn it), and Whitmore seemed to know too (since he knew where to place the cameras in that desert). I'm guessing MIB didn't know about it because he was kept out by the pylons, or the same thing that was initially protecting the temple, etc. So although we didn't get a concrete answer on this one (as far as I recall), I think the writers outlined enough of it that we can reasonably fill in the blanks.


----------



## JYoung

Bryanmc said:


> It's got to at least be a little about the destination. Doesn't matter how awesome the journey is if you end up in El Paso at the end of the ride.


So you're saying that Jack should have ended up at Rosa's Cantina, enraptured by a dancer named Felina who was played by Kate?


----------



## uncdrew

nyny523 said:


> Because with great storytelling, it is about the journey - not the destination.


It's about both.


----------



## stalemate

zordude said:


> I agree, as I said in the "were you satisfied" thread - it's like they gave me the "Yadda, yadda, yadda".


No, she mentioned the bisk.


----------



## unicorngoddess

JYoung said:


> Seems to me that the only real question that they added in Season six was "What was this sideways reality?" which was answered in the end.


That was the ONE question I never asked through all of Season 6. I took it for what they made it out to be...until they revealed at the end that it wasn't that at all. Were we not suppose to believe that the sideways was a result of the bomb?

On the other hand, we were introduced to these new characters at the temple in season 6. They had this pool where you could dunk people in it and it would bring them back to life somehow. It messed up Claire...who for some reason had to be dunked in there at some point. And it seemed to mess up Sayid. But how? What was it?


----------



## uncdrew

3D said:


> It would have been cool if Kevin Bacon had an easter egg cameo in the background


:up:

I still want the bloopers reel too.


----------



## Freshman JS

unicorngoddess said:


> That was the ONE question I never asked through all of Season 6. I took it for what they made it out to be...until they revealed at the end that it wasn't that at all. Were we not suppose to believe that the sideways was a result of the bomb?
> 
> On the other hand, we were introduced to these new characters at the temple in season 6. They had this pool where you could dunk people in it and it would bring them back to life somehow. It messed up Claire...who for some reason had to be dunked in there at some point. And it seemed to mess up Sayid. But how? What was it?


there were a lot of clues along the way that the sideways was not just a straight alternate reality from the bomb. pierre chang being the wrong age, all these people showing up (dogan, keemy) together where it didn't make sense, desmond running over locke, etc. it seemed more like some sort of dream all along

the temple was built as an access point to the light. the light is good and evil and tapping into it is risky as results are somewhat unpredictable. and, it seems to me that influence of mib is what messes up claire and sayid...once they got some distance from him, they came back around.


----------



## 3D

betts4 said:


> Well, Sawyer? because of his parents death? Kate? her father left her and her mom. And he touched Locke at a young age too, didn't he? (I may be remembering wrong).


I don't think he touched Locke until his father threw him out of the window.

So anyone suffering from adversity, even as a kid, is so flawed that it justifies Jacob bringing them to the island? I get if for the adults, but I just don't buy it with Sawyer and Kate. Sure, they might be more likely to have issues, but the way Jacob explained things, you think he'd actually allow them to develop their flaws before touching them and making them candidates. After all, we've been led to believe that Jacob is all about freewill. When questioned on that, he claimed that they were all flawed when he decided to bring them to the island. Can you honesty say that this was true about Kate and Sawyer when they were still kids? Not something that bothers me enough to be over the top mad about the lack of an explanation, but if anyone can reconcile it with information we have been given, I'd appreciate the insight.


----------



## gchance

unicorngoddess said:


> That was the ONE question I never asked through all of Season 6. I took it for what they made it out to be...until they revealed at the end that it wasn't that at all. Were we not suppose to believe that the sideways was a result of the bomb?


Face value, it looked like the sideways was a result of the bomb, but that turned out not to be the case. It's like when I work on someone's computer, then later that day they get Malware. They call me up and say, "Ever since you worked on my computer, it's been doing this weird thing". They think I did it, but as it turns out, it was something else.



> On the other hand, we were introduced to these new characters at the temple in season 6. They had this pool where you could dunk people in it and it would bring them back to life somehow. It messed up Claire...who for some reason had to be dunked in there at some point. And it seemed to mess up Sayid. But how? What was it?


Wait, isn't there a cave on the island that if someone goes deep down into, they don't die, but something worse than death happens? Isn't there a stream that comes out of this cave, and if you drink from the stream, you become "like me" (me being Jacob's mother, Jacob, and later Jack, then Hurley)?

Do you think that, perhaps, this stream also is funneled into the temple? Possibly? And that if for some reason it becomes corrupted by, oh I dunno, the death of the protector of the energy that flows into that stream, it could then corrupt the person partaking of that stream?

I dunno. This show just didn't answer things.

Greg


----------



## JYoung

unicorngoddess said:


> That was the ONE question I never asked through all of Season 6. I took it for what they made it out to be...until they revealed at the end that it wasn't that at all. Were we not suppose to believe that the sideways was a result of the bomb?


I didn't assume that. But even if that was the intention, misdirects are allowed in mysteries.



unicorngoddess said:


> On the other hand, we were introduced to these new characters at the temple in season 6. They had this pool where you could dunk people in it and it would bring them back to life somehow.


Which I'm now guessing was filled with charged water from the Light Cave.



unicorngoddess said:


> It messed up Claire...who for some reason had to be dunked in there at some point.


Says who? I never heard of any reference to Claire being dunked in it.
They (Dogan and Lennon) said that Claire was infected and they thought it was like Robert and the other French expedition members. 
But she was surviving on her own and essentially had Smokey whispering things in her ear for over three years and was already under tremendous emotional pressure before that (plane crash, giving birth, Charlie dying..). Not surprising that she's a tad off her rocker.



unicorngoddess said:


> And it seemed to mess up Sayid. But how? What was it?


Well, considering that Sayid was dead, I'd say he was pretty messed up already.

But since he was dunked in there after Jacob was dead and we'd already been told that dunking someone in there was a crap shoot (remember what Richard said when he took young Ben there), how can Sayid being messed up not be a surprise?


----------



## gchance

3D said:


> So anyone suffering from adversity, even as a kid, is so flawed that it justifies Jacob bringing them to the island? I get if for the adults, but I just don't buy it with Sawyer and Kate. Sure, they might be more likely to have issues, but the way Jacob explained things, you think he'd actually allow them to develop their flaws before touching them and making them candidates. After all, we've been led to believe that Jacob is all about freewill. When questioned on that, he claimed that they were all flawed when he decided to bring them to the island. Can you honesty say that this was true about Kate and Sawyer when they were still kids? Not something that bothers me enough to be over the top mad about the lack of an explanation, but if anyone can reconcile it with information we have been given, I'd appreciate the insight.


Was Jacob right? Was Jacob more or less God, essentially inventing right and wrong?

No, Jacob was just a guy, mommy issues and all. Sure they were flawed, but does this give Jacob the right? Whether he was right in what he did or not, he felt he was right, and felt it justified his actions. That's all on Jacob.

Greg


----------



## JYoung

gchance said:


> Was Jacob right? Was Jacob more or less God, essentially inventing right and wrong?
> 
> No, Jacob was just a guy, mommy issues and all. Sure they were flawed, but does this give Jacob the right? Whether he was right in what he did or not, he felt he was right, and felt it justified his actions. That's all on Jacob.
> 
> Greg


Or to put it another way, Jacob was a flawed individual with a big responsibility who was doing what he thought was best.


----------



## unicorngoddess

LordKronos said:


> As I recall, those were they Darma people. They setup a fake camp with the bamboo teepees (or whatever) and made themselves appear primitive. The camp was (I think) setup around one of the station entrances, which was buried (and inside the station, the losties even found the costumes in the lockers). They kidnapped walt (and maybe someone else), so presumably their disguise was meant as a cover in case they were caught.


No. The Darma people were killed off by the natives. The "natives" were there BEFORE Darama. The natives, along with Ben (because Ben had previously been inducted into the league of the Other Othere when Sayid shot him back in the 70s and they had to take him to the Temple to be saved) were responsible for genocide against the Darma people (except for those like Desmond and his budy that were underground).

It appears that Jacob used Richard to help him bring in potential replacements...but if Jacob was responsible for no kids being born on the island, as some people have suggested here but I don't recall the show ever actually confirming...then why would Jacob keep allowing people that weren't canidates to keep coming to the island and living there? Why not let them leave?

And, like I said, I acknowledge the fact that it's pretty much impossible to answer these questions and please everybody...the part that really bugs me is, they kept creating the mystery about it anyway. If it weren't suppose to play a critical role, why did we have to spend so much time learning about Darma, about their stations, about what they were doing in the 70s and why, for that matter, did our Losties have to end up back there? Instead, why couldn't the writers have been laying the foundation for the end battle. Why learn about Darama when you can learn about there being a sacred light on the island. The importance of it. The consequences of messing with it. Things like that. Honestly, I still kept thinking to myself at the end that MIB wasn't really evil. He was just a victim of circumstance. All he wanted to do was leave the island and the "mother" wouldn't let him. And then Jacob killed him...which was suppose to be against the rules, so I guess that's the reason smokey was created? Instead of being introduced all these plotlines that had nothing to do with the end, they could have spent some time building up the basis of the end game so we could at least CARE what might happen if smokey were released. Because maybe it was possible that he just wanted off the island and it wouldn't have hurt anybody at all...I don't know...

My point is, there was this gap. This gap doesn't just exist with the series finale but throughout the series as a whole. Like I said, it is the equivalent to reading a really good book, but skipping over chapters just to get to the "good" parts of the story or something.


----------



## DevdogAZ

unicorngoddess said:


> I finally decided last night that, in the end, the ending just isn't going to ever sit right with me. Why should I have to decide what was the most important aspect of the show for me. If the show was just about the characters this whole time, why did they even bother writing this HUGE story arch involving the mysteries of the island? I mean, did they make webisode episodes and random easter eggs laying around for the characters of the show? No. They had this HUGE focus on the island the whole time...I don't care what people may say about the writers claiming it was always about the characters. There were Hanso commercials that would pop up all over the place when you watched Lost that would lead you to websites, phone numbers, etc. All of that had to do with digging deeper into the mystery of the island. So you can't just say that the show was never about that six years later. People invested their interest into theorizing what it was all about.


Of course there was a big focus on the plot. In order to write an interesting story about characters, those characters have to be doing something. In this case, that something was interesting in and of itself. And when they saw that they were getting a huge cult following based on that interesting plot, of course they tried to capitalize on that. Who wouldn't. But all along, they made certain that the development of the characters and the telling of their stories were the focus of the show. All the Island mystery stuff was things we learned by watching the story of the characters, and it was only plot devices to further the story of the characters.


----------



## unicorngoddess

JYoung said:


> Says who? I never heard of any reference to Claire being dunked in it.


Dogan specifically told Jack that the same thing happened to his sister. By "same thing", I took that to mean they dunked her in the water too and then she failed their test and they deemed her to be infected. Maybe I misunderstood that part...but it seems to me that if Claire was just persuaded by MIB without the people at the Temple having anything to do with that, then why would he refer to that as "the same thing"?


----------



## zordude

LordKronos said:


> I'm going to answer a few of your questions as best as I can remember, and I hope that my memory is clear on what I do say (I didn't think they were important enough to make a mental note of for later reference).


Now answer these: 

Unanswered Lost Questions - http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291


----------



## MickeS

unicorngoddess said:


> And, like I said, I acknowledge the fact that it's pretty much impossible to answer these questions and please everybody...the part that really bugs me is, they kept creating the mystery about it anyway. If it weren't suppose to play a critical role, why did we have to spend so much time learning about Darma, about their stations, about what they were doing in the 70s and why, for that matter, did our Losties have to end up back there? Instead, why couldn't the writers have been laying the foundation for the end battle.


They were writing a series about a group of people trapped on an island. They were expected to keep writing it for many seasons. They needed to keep these people in conflicts and peril, and create mysteries. That's why they created Dharma and all the other subplots.

Once they set an end date for the series, they started to turn this ocean liner of a series towards its final destination. That's what they've been doing the last 3 seasons.


----------



## DevdogAZ

gchance said:


> Wait, isn't there a cave on the island that if someone goes deep down into, they don't die, but something worse than death happens? Isn't there a stream that comes out of this cave, and if you drink from the stream, you become "like me" (me being Jacob's mother, Jacob, and later Jack, then Hurley)?
> 
> Do you think that, perhaps, this stream also is funneled into the temple? Possibly? And that if for some reason it becomes corrupted by, oh I dunno, the death of the protector of the energy that flows into that stream, it could then corrupt the person partaking of that stream?
> 
> I dunno. This show just didn't answer things.
> 
> Greg


That was kind of a d-bag response by you. I don't think the show told us any of that stuff. If you want to infer those things, that's up to you, but to post in a passive-aggressive way that these "answers" were supposedly given by the show, when they weren't, is pretty lame of you.


----------



## gchance

unicorngoddess said:


> nd then Jacob killed him...which was suppose to be against the rules, so I guess that's the reason smokey was created?


No. He tossed him into the cave and turned him into Smokey. He's still alive, but worse than dead.

Greg


----------



## gchance

DevdogAZ said:


> That was kind of a d-bag response by you. I don't think the show told us any of that stuff. If you want to infer those things, that's up to you, but to post in a passive-aggressive way that these "answers" were supposedly given by the show, when they weren't, is pretty lame of you.


Once again, you've shown you really don't like me all that much. Thanks.

Greg


----------



## unicorngoddess

zordude said:


> Now answer these:
> 
> Unanswered Lost Questions - http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291


Yes! Yes! THAT!


----------



## Freshman JS

unicorngoddess said:


> And, like I said, I acknowledge the fact that it's pretty much impossible to answer these questions and please everybody...the part that really bugs me is, they kept creating the mystery about it anyway. If it weren't suppose to play a critical role, why did we have to spend so much time learning about Darma, about their stations, about what they were doing in the 70s and why, for that matter, did our Losties have to end up back there? Instead, why couldn't the writers have been laying the foundation for the end battle.


I don't understand what you are saying. That stuff _did _play a critical role. And it _was _the foundation for the end battle.


----------



## 3D

gchance said:


> Was Jacob right? Was Jacob more or less God, essentially inventing right and wrong?
> 
> No, Jacob was just a guy, mommy issues and all. Sure they were flawed, but does this give Jacob the right? Whether he was right in what he did or not, he felt he was right, and felt it justified his actions. That's all on Jacob.
> 
> Greg





JYoung said:


> Or to put it another way, Jacob was a flawed individual with a big responsibility who was doing what he thought was best.


I think you're right. Plus, taking it a step further, I think Jacob always maintained a childlike mentality, which would explain why to him, a child could be forever flawed.

I think the problem most people have who are not satisfied by the lack of answers is from not liking the overall answer to the greatest mystery of the show as well as the point in the series that the answer was given. If, after Charlie's initial famous question of "where are we", the next episode explained the relationship between Jacob, MIB, and the island and then we watched the rest of the series play out exactly as we did, I don't think people would have the same problems, because we could have been piecing together what was behind every new "mystery" by virtue of knowing what was really going on on the island. They might have different problems, however, because that explanation might seem a pretty lame starting point from which to begin.

Big question during season one: what's the island? purgatory? the matrix? an alien experiment? Nope, it's a place which, for whatever reason, has certain properties that allow some pretty incredible things to happen. Also, it needs to be protected from outsiders, as well as from an entrapped soul who wants nothing more than to destroy it so that he can escape his own personal hell. I submit that with that knowledge, every mystery as presented can be answered. Period. If we had known all of this from the beginning, it would not have taken very long to flesh out in these threads what each mystery meant as it was presented. But where would be the fun in that?

So, the producers did what they did for five seasons and gave us about 90% of what we needed to know in last year's finale, we just didn't realize it at the time. If someone hates the explanation, that's certainly their prerogative; but it only requires a little extrapolation to answer every mystery we've seen, though there may be an exception or two (Walt's special powers, for instance). Without getting into whether the tone of the post was friendly or not, gchance's explanation about the water in the temple is a perfect example of how anything one is still wondering about can probably be answered by looking to the information that *was* given.


----------



## DevdogAZ

gchance said:


> Once again, you've shown you really don't like me all that much. Thanks.
> 
> Greg


Once again? Really? Because of the B5 comment? That had nothing to do with whether I like you or not. It had to do with me being frustrated with always seeing references to some obscure sci-fi show, when I know that the majority of the readers of this forum wouldn't get. It had nothing to do with you personally. I don't know you, and I'm sure you're a great person.

As for this particular instance, I think it's counterproductive to respond to people that didn't like the episode, or had questions about the episode, with a smug, sarcastic response like you did. If you're really trying to help them see that they missed an answer that was given during the show, then do it in a helpful manner. If you're just trying to be a jerk because you don't agree with that person's opinion, then that's how forum discussions turn into flame wars. I'd like to think that we here at TCF are better than that.


----------



## ronsch

unicorngoddess said:


> They had this pool where you could dunk people in it and it would bring them back to life somehow. It messed up Claire...who for some reason had to be dunked in there at some point. And it seemed to mess up Sayid. But how? What was it?


This harkens back to what LordKronos said about magic.



MickeS said:


> They were writing a series about a group of people trapped on an island. They were expected to keep writing it for many seasons. They needed to keep these people in conflicts and peril, and create mysteries. That's why they created Dharma and all the other subplots.


Don't forget that Dharma was there investigating the unique electromagnetic properties of the island. They may have originally been a ploy by Jacob to get more potential candidates to the island but they allowed our characters to gradually start learning more about the island as time went by. To paraphrase MickeS, If you just dropped "Across the Sea" in season one it would have been considerably more difficult to go six seasons without a resolution even as unsatisfying as it turned out to be for some people.

Oops. Another smeek.


----------



## appleye1

vman said:


> This is interesting, but I don't buy the bit about why Ben is not in the church. If it was only supposed to be people included in the ending that was written at the time of the pilot, would Juliette and Libby be there?


I think Ben's not in the church because he's taken over as #1 from Hurley. For whatever reason Hurley has died and is now joining the ones to "move on". Ben is just visiting the sideways world to see everyone off.


----------



## JYoung

unicorngoddess said:


> Dogan specifically told Jack that the same thing happened to his sister. By "same thing", I took that to mean they dunked her in the water too and then she failed their test and they deemed her to be infected. Maybe I misunderstood that part...but it seems to me that if Claire was just persuaded by MIB without the people at the Temple having anything to do with that, then why would he refer to that as "the same thing"?


The "same thing" as in they are both "infected".

The dialog would indicated that at one point, Claire was captured by the Temple people (because Smokey told her they had Aaron). They tested her and she "failed".


----------



## kemajor

Rob Helmerichs said:


> THE ISLAND NEVER SANK!
> It was only shown as sunken in the sideways verse, which IS NOT REAL.
> The island never sank!
> Sinking, never did the island do.
> Not sinking is what the island did.
> Island sink. NOT!
> Etc.
> PS--The island never sank.


If the island never sank then why was it at the bottom of the ocean? 

SCNR - K

High Tide?


----------



## jeff125va

unicorngoddess said:


> That was the ONE question I never asked through all of Season 6. I took it for what they made it out to be...until they revealed at the end that it wasn't that at all. Were we not suppose to believe that the sideways was a result of the bomb?


I always thought that was supposed to be the "obvious" conclusion, but I didn't think it really make sense that a nuke would actually sink the island. Of course, it's TV, so they don't have to follow the laws of physics, so I was just waiting to see how it turned out.

I guess we can only wonder what would supposedly have caused it to sink in the alternate storyline, but of course it wasn't real so it doesn't really matter. Perhaps they just showed the sunken island so that we would know what would happen if Jack hadn't put the plug back in.


----------



## GaryGnu

spikedavis said:


> Wow. They really resorted to some religious BS "afterlife" nonsense? What a letdown.


That sums it up for me.


----------



## zordude

appleye1 said:


> I think Ben's not in the church because he's taken over as #1 from Hurley. For whatever reason Hurley has died and is now joining the ones to "move on". Ben is just visiting the sideways world to see everyone off.


I don't think that makes sense given that he had the same "flackback memory" that everyone else did, if he was visiting he would have been in the know the whole time.

He just knows he doesn't belong with them.

Z


----------



## DaveMN

I was one of those who was hoping for more insight on what the island was, but I thought the finale was perfect. I'm still trying to get my head around the details of the sideways, but I look at it this way: It represented to each person a "redo" or second chance. It's what they think life might have been like if Jacob hadn't touched them and brought them to their hellish existence on the island.

Wonderful, thought-provoking, emotional entertainment. I'm going to miss it.


----------



## DevdogAZ

kemajor said:


> If the island never sank then why was it at the bottom of the ocean?
> 
> SCNR - K
> 
> High Tide?


I hope the smilie means you're just joking. It was only at the bottom of the ocean in an imaginary, non-existent universe, so it means nothing.


----------



## kemajor

DevdogAZ said:


> I hope the smilie means you're just joking. It was only at the bottom of the ocean in an imaginary, non-existent universe, so it means nothing.


That is just crazy talk! 

Yeah, just kidding... 

- K


----------



## stinkbomb1020

By the time I try to read all of these posts, I will:
1. Be the most "Lost" man in the world; or
2. Be the craziest man in the world!

Seriously, thanks to all that have posted. It really opens up many different theories/possible answers about Lost and also many other questions!


----------



## stinkbomb1020

I'm just speculating....Maybe many eons ago, the island was once part of Atlantis. Explaining some of the mysteries involved with the mechanics of the island would come from the possibility that the people of Atlantis had advanced technology. Weird and mystical technology that only the Atlantean's would or could fully understand or know how to properly operate. This could explain some of the issues....


----------



## jeff125va

DaveMN said:


> I was one of those who was hoping for more insight on what the island was, but I thought the finale was perfect. I'm still trying to get my head around the details of the sideways, but I look at it this way: It represented to each person a "redo" or second chance. It's what they think life might have been like if Jacob hadn't touched them and brought them to their hellish existence on the island.
> 
> Wonderful, thought-provoking, emotional entertainment. I'm going to miss it.


[this is all hypothetical since the FSW wasn't real, but for the sake of discussion...]
To some extent, yes, but I don't think in the strict cause-and-effect sense of "IF Jacob interacts here, life will take path A, IF NOT, life will take path B."

That might have been the case with Sawyer, i.e. Jacob not putting the pen in his hand was a major turning point. But we know that even though he became a cop instead of a con man, he was still obsessed with finding "the real Sawyer." We really don't know much about how Kate's life was different. Jack had his appendix out as a kid instead of as an adult, but AFAWK Jacob never touched his life until he was a doctor. For Hurley it would have to involve more than just when he met Jacob, i.e. the whole thing with the island and the numbers.

Yeah, I'm going to miss it, too. There's never been a show at any one time in my life that was so far and away my favorite. I remember feeling kinda sad when ER ended. Not because I liked the show so much - I did like it, but characters came and went so often that it wasn't even about them. It was more that the show had been on for so long and for a period of time that basically represented just about my entire adult life up to that point. So it was more the end of an era, so to speak.

With Lost, while there were some cast changes, most of them at least popped in from time to time, and 6 years wasn't long enough to forget about even the ones that left in the first 1 or 2 seasons. I'm going to miss this show very much.


----------



## aindik

DevdogAZ said:


> I hope the smilie means you're just joking. It was only at the bottom of the ocean in an imaginary, non-existent universe, so it means nothing.


I don't know that the sideways is "imaginary" or "non-existent" or even "fake." It's "real" in the same way that, to a religious Christian, heaven is real.


----------



## Turtleboy

Ok, ok, I got it.

1) They all died in the initial crash
2) The Island sank to the bottom of the ocean before the crash took place
3) Even though they all died in the crash on an island that was at the bottom of the sea, the plane they showed at the very end was the Ajira plane, which also crashed, even though there was no one to fly it or be on it.
4) Sun didn't have sex with Jae
5) Hurley said Gaunt.


----------



## jeff125va

aindik said:


> I don't know that the sideways is "imaginary" or "non-existent" or even "fake." It's "real" in the same way that, to a religious Christian, heaven is real.


In a general sense, maybe, but Christian did say that they sort of created it in their minds (one could say, "imaginations") so that they could find each other. To Christians (and Jews and Muslims, all of whom essentially believe in the same God), heaven's existence isn't dependent on anything. So saying that the sunken island isn't real (within the universe of the show) isn't the same as saying that the _entire_ afterlife in the show isn't real.

But Jack didn't really have a son (as Desmond said), wasn't really married to Juliet, Sawyer wasn't really a cop, etc. But I would say that the brightly lit place on the other side of the doors, within the universe of the show, WAS real. They all only got there once they remembered who they really were.


----------



## aindik

Did he say they created it "in their minds," or just that it's a "place" that they created?


----------



## MickeS

aindik said:


> I don't know that the sideways is "imaginary" or "non-existent" or even "fake." It's "real" in the same way that, to a religious Christian, heaven is real.


I agree, somewhat. 
I am not a religious person at all. I interpreted the sideways revelation to be a different dimensional plane - just a different existence where their consciousness moved to after they died. It was "real" for the people in the sideways dimension, just like their island reality was "real" in that dimension. It wasn't any more or less fake. Maybe my interpretation is what makes me more satisfied with the ending than some other people are.

This IS a TV show after all.


----------



## ronsch

Turtleboy said:


> Ok, ok, I got it.
> 
> 1) They all died in the initial crash
> 2) The Island sank to the bottom of the ocean before the crash took place
> 3) Even though they all died in the crash on an island that was at the bottom of the sea, the plane they showed at the very end was the Ajira plane, which also crashed, even though there was no one to fly it or be on it.
> 4) Sun didn't have sex with Jae
> 5) Hurley said Gaunt.


----------



## ronsch

aindik said:


> Did he say they created it "in their minds," or just that it's a "place" that they created?


I believe he said it was a place they all created to find each other.


----------



## MickeS

aindik said:


> Did he say they created it "in their minds," or just that it's a "place" that they created?


He said "this is a place that you all made together so you could find one another".


----------



## SocratesJohnson

Family said:


> I'm curious if there is any explanation for Jacob's cabin.


I assume Jacob did actually live there at some point, since that was were Ilana and her group originally went to find him. She stated that "someone else had been living there" which I would assume meant MIB/Christian. My question is, was the ash ring around the cabin there to keep MIB out or to keep him in? Was he at some point imprisoned there?


----------



## MickeS

SocratesJohnson said:


> I assume Jacob did actually live there at some point, since that was were Ilana and her group originally went to find him. She stated that "someone else had been living there" which I would assume meant MIB/Christian. My question is, was the ash ring around the cabin there to keep MIB out or to keep him in? Was he at some point imprisoned there?


The ashes were shown to be protection against MiB, so I guess that's what they were used for.


----------



## betts4

Cool LOST shirt over at woot shirt . com - on sale for the next hour (till 5pm est) for $12 bucks. http://shirt.woot.com/friends.aspx?k=13889


----------



## jking

MickeS said:


> He said "this is a place that you all made together so you could find one another".


Exactly. And this is a perfect example of why I think no matter what Darlton had done, there was no chance they were going to satisfy everyone that all the answers had been given. There has been debate here and other places that, perhaps Hurley made this place, perhaps this is only Jack's afterlife, etc. No. Christian said it, plain and simple. They all made it together so they could find one another. They give us answers, yet we still manage to turn them into questions.


----------



## MickeS

jking said:


> Exactly. And this is a perfect example of why I think no matter what Darlton had done, there was no chance they were going to satisfy everyone that all the answers had been given. There has been debate here and other places that, perhaps Hurley made this place, perhaps this is only Jack's afterlife, etc. No. Christian said it, plain and simple. They all made it together so they could find one another. They give us answers, yet we still manage to turn them into questions.


Yeah... the last dialog between Christian and Jack (copied from a blog, but I think it's correct):



> *Jack*: I don't understand, you died.
> 
> *Christian*: Yes I did.
> 
> *Jack*: Then how are you here right now?
> 
> *Christian*: How are you here?
> 
> *Jack*, realization coming over him: I died too.
> 
> *Christian*: Its okay son.
> 
> They hug and Jack cries.
> 
> *Christian*: I'm real, you're real. Everything that has ever happened to you is real. All the people in the church, they're all real too.
> 
> *Jack*: They're all dead?
> 
> *Christian*: Everyone dies sometime. Some of them before you, some of them long after you.
> 
> *Jack*: Why are they here now?
> 
> *Christian*: There is no now, here.
> 
> *Jack*: Where are we now?
> 
> *Christian*: This is a place that you all made together so you could find one another. The most important time of your life was when you were with these people. That's why you are all here. No one does it alone Jack. You needed all of them and they needed you.


I mean, how can it be said any clearer?


----------



## SocratesJohnson

MickeS said:


> The ashes were shown to be protection against MiB, so I guess that's what they were used for.


Yeah, we've seen that MIB couldn't cross the ashes, so therefore they could have been used to keep him in the cabin, effectively trapped.


----------



## rkallerud

To me, the sideways world is the afterlife, and exists outside of time and place. People arrive there after they die, whenever it is that they die.

But why were Jin and Sun not married? Why did Jack have a son? Why was he with Juliet? Why was Locke with Helen and why did he want to stay in his wheelchair? Why was Sayid not with Nadia? Why was Hurley the luckiest man in the world instead of the unluckiest? At first blush, it all seems very arbitrary,

I think that the circumstances in this afterlife represented what each of the characters thought that they (or their soul) deserved (or possibly desired) in life.

Each of the awakenings comes when the character is presented with what their soul truly wanted or deserved. Once you find your soulmate or your purpose, you awaken, and you're "ready" to "let go of" or move on from this in-between afterlife into that light towards some conception of heaven.

Sayid wanted to be with Nadia but didn't think he deserved her, so that became his sideways reality. But his real soulmate was Shannon. Once he came to realize that, he was ready to move on. Jack thought he wanted a son to make up for his fractured relationship with his father, but once he realized that what what his soul truly needed was reconciliation with his father, he was ready to move on. Locke thought Helen was his soulmate and wanted his father to suffer with physical disability, but he also felt guilt and thought he deserved to stay in his wheelchair. He only was ready to move on when he was able to wiggle his toe and he realized that his destiny was for him to be able to walk again.

It's just a theory right now, and I can't say for sure it works for all of the characters, but it's what makes the most sense to me right now...


----------



## uncdrew

ronsch said:


>


Well he's wrong about #4.


----------



## MickeS

By the way...


> Christian: This is a place that you all made together so you could find one another. The most important time of your life was when you were with these people. That's why you are all here. No one does it alone Jack. You needed all of them and they needed you.


I think that's a message from the writers and actors to the devoted Lostpedia-creating fans. They just couldn't have done it without eachother.


----------



## uncdrew

MickeS said:


> Yeah... the last dialog between Christian and Jack (copied from a blog, but I think it's correct):
> 
> I mean, how can it be said any clearer?


I kinda wish they hadn't been so clear. I was getting used to the questions.


----------



## jkeegan

unicorngoddess said:


> The natives...who were they? Why were they there? Did Jacob bring them all there?


People Jacob brought to the island, who he had report to Richard so he wouldn't have to explain things to them himself, that he brought to the island. Richard or Jacob at some point made it such that the people themselves had a leader and Richard was just an adviser. Jacob said he brought people to the island to show his brother that there are still good people out there. He was either telling the truth, or that was his plausible deniability story to say to MiB's face while he was really trying to bring candidates to the island, looking for someone to kill his brother (MiB) since he couldn't, and then take his place.



> Why couldn't they be candidates?


I don't think we know for sure that they can't.. Where'd you get the idea that they couldn't be?



> Why did there have to be a leader and why couldn't that leader ever be a candidate?


There didn't HAVE to be an 'other' leader (there wasn't before Jacob), but Richard and Jacob set it up that way. How interesting would it have been to hear the details of that? Wow. Might as well read tax forms out loud.. It didn't matter - basically Jacob kept bringing people to the island, looking for someone to kill MiB, and MiB kept killing them all by corrupting them and getting them to kill each other. Jacob wanted help in finding the cream of the crop though, so he had Richard have the people make lists of people that seemed 'good'.



> What exactly were the rules of this "game"?


<insert-boring-bland-description-of-uninteresting-rules/>



> Why didn't Jacob ever try to get another of the leaders of the Others to try to kill MIB...or did he?


He needed a plan that would work. He could see what will happen (as could MiB), and the trick was who could see more steps ahead. He probably saw with all of the people before our Losties that there was no end game yet where he'd be victorious. He finally saw a plan that required his own death, and he went with it, piggybacking on MiB's plan to kill HIM, but tacking on more stuff after his own death, including making sure that people dropped a bomb in the Swan hatch, so that Dharma people would build a hatch to contain it with a computer and a timer in it, so that Desmond would be stuck in that hatch for 3 years being exposed to magnetic radiation (and maybe that liquid he injected himself with), so he'd build up a resistance to electromagnetism, so he could be later brought by Widmore (who Jacob gave orders to) to the island, so that MiB would have Sayid spy on Widmore to find out what/who was in the sub (Desmond), so that MiB would try to take Desmond, so MiB could take the bait and use Desmond to try to destroy the island, so Desmond could actually unplug the stone plug and rob MiB of his power, so Jack could kill him. This was the first plan he found that worked, so he carried it out. Ones that wouldn't work, he didn't try.



> The Island...why did it seem to have magical healing abillities for some people but not others?


It worked for everyone except Ben and his spinal problem, which introduced Jack and Ben (thus Ben and the Losties), which eventually made it possible for MiB to see a plan that would allow Locke to be brought to the donkey wheel, eventually leading to Jacob's plan.



> Why did it have this ability to kind of be unstuck from time.


This is fiction, so we'd have to make something up. Imagine a generic explanation like "The island was built on naturally occurring rocks that move randomly through 4 dimensions".. Blah! What did that add to the story? Nothing. The island can move through time when the magic light and the magic water combine. There's your answer. (shh - time travel isn't real)



> How did it come to be that if you go down a well and turn a donkey wheel that you end up on the other end of the world. Who built that? Why?


The Man in Black (MiB) built it, so he could try to get off of the island. It output to a hardcoded location on earth because it was a machine he built, and he didn't care WHERE he got out, he just wanted to get out somewhere on land. Answered.



> I mean, some of them you can argue are just very trivial things when you look back on it.


Yes.



> But at the time they were introduced they were pretty important.


Said who?



> And most people were operating under an assumption that we would at least get some kind of explanation.


Can't choose between "well, we did get some kind of explanation, for all of those" or "<Locke-voice>They were wrong</Locke-voice>".



> It didn't even have to be a big, long lengthy one. Just some kind of passing mentioning of something for them to acknowledge...


See above. I'm not pulling that stuff out of my ***, I'm piecing it together from what they gave us (which was fun, by the way.. as is having discussions about a show even after it's over.. thank you Damon and Carlton for not answering everything and leaving us some sterile, uninteresting story that it'd be pointless to discuss!)


----------



## jkeegan

Freshman JS said:


> Jacob made a bunch of rules because that is what the protector gets to do. it's true, they never spelled out his rules and maybe it would have been nice if they did (although not sure why it matters). some of them are clear: babies cant be conceived/born on island,


Agh - again.. Ethan was born on the island (and we have every reason to believe that he was conceived there). People could be born on the island fine until the bomb went off. That had nothing to do with Jacob. Richard even told Locke that Ben's obsession with this trivial detail felt like a distraction to most of them.. It wasn't a Jacob rule - it was the bomb.


----------



## jkeegan

pcguru83 said:


> A large number of the themes from the first five seasons are only tangentially related at best to the ultimate end game.


Well don't just make vague statements, list out the ones you didn't feel were related so we can discuss them. I'm surprised how much of what happened in the past 6 seasons WAS tied in with "the main story line".


----------



## jkeegan

unicorngoddess said:


> On the other hand, we were introduced to these new characters at the temple in season 6. They had this pool where you could dunk people in it and it would bring them back to life somehow. It messed up Claire...who for some reason had to be dunked in there at some point. And it seemed to mess up Sayid. But how? What was it?


The healing waters of the island.. That's not good enough for the story for you? Do you need to hear something like "well, the island water happens to have organisms in it that know about human DNA and what it forms, and when they're exposed to humans they rapidly attack damaged cells and form replacements, binding to it"? Wow, that would suck!

I'm a pretty science-based guy, yet I think in fiction almost every time I've heard things described that tightly, they SUCK.. Sometimes it's good - if a time travel story has a BIT of truth in it, trying to tie things in with some flow of tachyon particles that helps.. but basically at some point the writer has to throw in gobbledygook-made-up-scifi-element that we don't have in real life to explain things, and that's when the magic ends and you're reminded that you're watching/reading FICTION. If they leave it mysterious, we're able to enjoy it more. Trying to describe how something that can't work works can't happen..


----------



## jkeegan

(now WHO brought Sayid back to life, and WHY.. those are good questions.. maybe ones we're supposed to figure out ourselves.. but how the water healed people? Are you serious?)


----------



## jkeegan

3D said:


> I don't think he touched Locke until his father threw him out of the window.
> 
> So anyone suffering from adversity, even as a kid, is so flawed that it justifies Jacob bringing them to the island? I get if for the adults, but I just don't buy it with Sawyer and Kate. Sure, they might be more likely to have issues, but the way Jacob explained things, you think he'd actually allow them to develop their flaws before touching them and making them candidates. After all, we've been led to believe that Jacob is all about freewill. When questioned on that, he claimed that they were all flawed when he decided to bring them to the island. Can you honesty say that this was true about Kate and Sawyer when they were still kids? Not something that bothers me enough to be over the top mad about the lack of an explanation, but if anyone can reconcile it with information we have been given, I'd appreciate the insight.


Jacob seemed to be able to see what was going to happen waaaaaaaaaaaay in advance, just like a Jedi.. (MiB too, which is how he pulled off his mousetrap-like rube goldberg machine that led to Jacob's death)..

So maybe Jacob saw that Kate, way later in life, would have been described to have a horrible life. He touched her early in life, changing her life a bit (he robbed her of the learned lesson that bad acts like stealing have negative consequences). That led her to being someone who took more risks in life, made her able to kill (in that timeline she actually killed her stepfather), and ultimately made it easier for her to shoot MiB on the cliff.

He could see early on that Sawyer would eventually end up killing people (including an innocent man) in his search for revenge for his parents' deaths. He gave Sawyer a pen at a young age, helping him crystalize his anger towards Sawyer, making him the person he was (which made him more likely to kill MiB if given the chance). (for example)


----------



## jradford

jkeegan said:


> Jacob seemed to be able to see what was going to happen waaaaaaaaaaaay in advance, just like a Jedi.. (MiB too, which is how he pulled off his mousetrap-like rube goldberg machine that led to Jacob's death)..


A friend and I were discussing what allowed Ben to kill Jacob (referring to the "loop hole" not the act of "knife through heart.")

It had always been my understanding that the "loophole" had to do with Ben being a candidate. I'd seen this postulated elsewhere and had no problems accepting it. My friends idea was that maybe the "loophole" had something to do with being healed by the water as a child. What was the general consensus on this back when it happened?


----------



## zordude

jkeegan said:


> So maybe Jacob saw that Kate, way later in life, would have been described to have a horrible life. He touched her early in life, changing her life a bit (he robbed her of the learned lesson that bad acts like stealing have negative consequences). That led her to being someone who took more risks in life, made her able to kill (in that timeline she actually killed her stepfather), and ultimately made it easier for her to shoot MiB on the cliff.
> 
> He could see early on that Sawyer would eventually end up killing people (including an innocent man) in his search for revenge for his parents' deaths. He gave Sawyer a pen at a young age, helping him crystalize his anger towards Sawyer, making him the person he was (which made him more likely to kill MiB if given the chance). (for example)


Doesn't sound like Jacob was the "good guy" at all 

Z


----------



## jkeegan

appleye1 said:


> I think Ben's not in the church because he's taken over as #1 from Hurley. For whatever reason Hurley has died and is now joining the ones to "move on". Ben is just visiting the sideways world to see everyone off.


Interesting theory.. I'll go back to three words though: Dead is dead.


----------



## jkeegan

jeff125va said:


> [this is all hypothetical since the FSW wasn't real, but for the sake of discussion...]
> To some extent, yes, but I don't think in the strict cause-and-effect sense of "IF Jacob interacts here, life will take path A, IF NOT, life will take path B."
> 
> That might have been the case with Sawyer, i.e. Jacob not putting the pen in his hand was a major turning point. But we know that even though he became a cop instead of a con man, he was still obsessed with finding "the real Sawyer." We really don't know much about how Kate's life was different.


I'd say that by paying for her lunchbox and removing her life lesson of negative consequences for negative acts, he changed her mindset enough that she'd just go over that line and actually carry out killing her stepfather, instead of planning to and backing out at the last minute because of the consequences.. (or maybe she just chose not to kill him at all, and the universe course-correcting had someone else do it and she got blamed.. either works).


----------



## getreal

betts4 said:


> Cool LOST shirt over at $**&@#shirt - on sale for the next hour (till 5pm est) for $12 bucks.


I seriously doubt that they have legal license rights from the series creators/copyright owners. That's why they are trying to do a quick cash grab and then run away before they are caught. :down::down:


----------



## TheMerk

getreal said:


> I seriously doubt that they have legal license rights from the series creators/copyright owners. That's why they are trying to do a quick cash grab and then run away before they are caught. :down::down:


It's a parody, so copyright isn't an issue. Also, shirt.woot is hardly trying to make a quick cash grab. They always offer a differnet shirt evey day for $10, after that the older shirts that are still selling well are $15. Totday, for one hour, the older shirts were $12.


----------



## getreal

TheMerk said:


> It's a parody, so copyright isn't an issue. Also, shirt.woot is hardly trying to make a quick cash grab. They always offer a differnet shirt evey day for $10, after that the older shirts that are still selling well are $15. Totday, for one hour, the older shirts were $12.


You say parody, I call it as a rip-off.


----------



## DevdogAZ

TheMerk said:


> It's a parody, so copyright isn't an issue. Also, shirt.woot is hardly trying to make a quick cash grab. They always offer a differnet shirt evey day for $10, after that the older shirts that are still selling well are $15. Totday, for one hour, the older shirts were $12.


Either way, no self-respecting LOST fan would wear that shirt that has a crown in the middle of the Dharma logo. What is that supposed to be? That just makes it look like those San Francisco 59ers jackets I used to see when I lived in Europe.


----------



## getreal

DevdogAZ said:


> Either way, no self-respecting LOST fan would wear that shirt that has a crown in the middle of the Dharma logo. What is that supposed to be? That just makes it look like those San Francisco 59ers jackets I used to see when I lived in Europe.


Once you reproduce/fabricate the item and promote it for sale, it becomes a licensable product subject to intellectual property rights protection by the legal owners of the copyrights.


----------



## Sir_winealot

DeathOrDeath said:


> 2 1/2 hours, at least an hour of commercials, and just a terrible ending.


Wrong. The commercials totalled approximately 37 minutes.



mostman said:


> I don't get the hate. You can't look at the small details and say things like, "What about the time the sand was blue?! Huh?! What say you?!"
> 
> it doesn't matter. The show was about bigger things. It was about the journey. The whole last season was about the island finding a new protector and the Losties finding themselves after death. Seriously. Anything else was window dressing.
> 
> Lost. A bunch of broken people crash on an island. They are not the first to end up there. The island has a seriously odd mythology. There is a protector on the island, keeping humans from destroying it. There is also a monster. The bunch of people join together to fix eachother and survive. The island screws with them every chance it gets. Its magic. They have many adventures. They create such a bond, that they must enter Heaven as a group. The End.


This. :up:


----------



## DreadPirateRob

Doc Jensen's mega-review from EW: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20313460_20388269_2,00.html


----------



## wprager

DevdogAZ said:


> Once again? Really? Because of the B5 comment? That had nothing to do with whether I like you or not. It had to do with me being frustrated with always seeing references to some obscure sci-fi show, when I know that the majority of the readers of this forum wouldn't get. It had nothing to do with you personally. I don't know you, and I'm sure you're a great person.
> 
> As for this particular instance, I think it's counterproductive to respond to people that didn't like the episode, or had questions about the episode, with a smug, sarcastic response like you did. If you're really trying to help them see that they missed an answer that was given during the show, then do it in a helpful manner. If you're just trying to be a jerk because you don't agree with that person's opinion, then that's how forum discussions turn into flame wars. I'd like to think that we here at TCF are better than that.


I think you should put this to bed by just watching B5 so it is no longer _some obscure sci-fi show_ to you. I think your disparaging comments about it would, then, have a little more credibility.

Like me, for example. For years (well, maybe 2-3 years) I endured my friends talking about this show, using obscure references, naming their development machines Zhadum and such. I couldn't convince them to stop because they always said "You haven't seen it." So I gritted my teeth and watched it. It was a very good story, and a great deal of it was thought out from start to finish. And the acting was really, really bad (except for most of the aliens), and the sets and SFX were done on an obviously very limited budget. And there is no way in hell that I would, overall, say that B5 was better than a lot of other shows that came after (and a few that came before) because, frankly, for me, while the writing is paramount, it simply cannot overcome bad acting, cheesy sets and effects and (forgot to mention earlier) some really, really bad music (it really fails rather badly in that respect when comparing it to Lost). Consider the analogy of a beautiful piano concerto being played by someone's 9 year old nephew on a piano in great need of tuning. Although the writing is excellent, you simply cannot enjoy the performance.

And I still think we need a poll


----------



## gchance

jkeegan said:


> I'm not pulling that stuff out of my ***, I'm piecing it together from what they gave us (which was fun, by the way.. as is having discussions about a show even after it's over.. thank you Damon and Carlton for not answering everything and leaving us some sterile, uninteresting story that it'd be pointless to discuss!)


To see how discussion threads go when everything's spelled out, go check the 24 series finale thread. 

Greg


----------



## hapdrastic

Whew, finally caught up to the thread.

I was very happy with the ending of the island storyline. I was initially not pleased with the sideways storyline, but the more I think about it, the more I like it.

And now, a question:
Mother initially made it so that Jacob and MiB couldn't hurt eachother - at some point later in that episode Jacob punches MiB in the face 4 or 5 times. Did he bleed then? Or was he just getting knocked around? When Jack punched FLocke after the plug was pulled in the cave there was blood and FLocke seemed surprised.


----------



## hapdrastic

And another thing....

I'm fairly certain that everyone got what they subconsciously felt they deserved in the sideways universe, that's why Sayid (who thinks he's a bad man) didn't quite have the life he'd have liked, etc.

Something else I thought about during this monster thread: Jacob's note that said they needed to keep Sayid alive or they'd all die was accurate. If he hadn't taken the bomb and run away all of our main cast would have died.


----------



## jkeegan

jking said:


> Exactly. And this is a perfect example of why I think no matter what Darlton had done, there was no chance they were going to satisfy everyone that all the answers had been given. There has been debate here and other places that, perhaps Hurley made this place, perhaps this is only Jack's afterlife, etc. No. Christian said it, plain and simple. They all made it together so they could find one another. They give us answers, yet we still manage to turn them into questions.


Yeah but in fairness on this issue, it's understandable why people would take a bit of time to digest this one. There was clearly no "time" during which any group of Losties that included Jack could consciously "create" this place.. We never saw them sit around and say "ok, next one that gets powers, create a place for us all to meet after we die".. We also didn't see anyone say "Everyone, think/believe/wish REALLY hard that when we die we'll have a place together to meet up..."..

So it's been tough to do, but I'm starting to accept the idea that they all created it _subconsciously_.. That subconsciously part feels a bit like a cop-out though, because they'd all have to at least been exposed to the idea (so their subconsciouses could know it) that maybe it was possible to create/will-into-creation some afterlife game lobby to meet up in.

So it's certainly easier to start thinking that maybe Hurley or Jack, who have "powers" (which would seem to at least do fantastic things like allow them to make people immortal and stop guns from firing off-island) might actually have created that place (or helped people's subconsciousnesses realize that they could/should create that place).

But in general, yeah, here at the end (where there's no reason for anyone to lie to us to preserve a secret for a later episode), if we're clearly told something, we should be pretty inclined to take it at face value.


----------



## getreal




----------



## jkeegan

MickeS said:


> By the way...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Christian: This is a place that you all made together so you could find one another. The most important time of your life was when you were with these people. That's why you are all here. No one does it alone Jack. You needed all of them and they needed you.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a message from the writers and actors to the devoted Lostpedia-creating fans. They just couldn't have done it without eachother.
Click to expand...

 :up::up::up: 

Except he's not talking about lostpedia.. he's talking about us.


----------



## hefe

Sir_winealot said:


> Wrong. The commercials totalled approximately 37 minutes.


I'm glad someone saved me from having to check. 

Perception is usually worse than reality. A typical hour long show is about what...42 minutes of actual content roughly? So 2 1/2 hours should result in 45 minutes of commercials proportionally. So wait...we had less?


----------



## DreadPirateRob

hefe said:


> I'm glad someone saved me from having to check.
> 
> Perception is usually worse than reality. A typical hour long show is about what...42 minutes of actual content roughly? So 2 1/2 hours should result in 45 minutes of commercials proportionally. So wait...we had less?


Apparently.  There are usually between 17-18 minutes of commercials in an hour show, and 8-9 minutes in a half-hour show, so we really should had to FF through 42-45 worth. We got off easy.


----------



## lpamelaa

Here's how I rationalize the "Why this?" and "Why that?" questions about the sideways world.

I think that it acts a lot like a dream. In a dream, your sub-conscious draws from your own history and thoughts to create the dreams. Frequently while there are familiar things, they don't always add up. Sometimes good things happen. Sometimes bad. Sometimes you're working through an issue. Sometimes it's just weird.

The sideways world was a lot like that.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Sir_winealot said:


> Wrong. The commercials totalled approximately 37 minutes.


Where did that info come from? Did you total them up? Did you download a torrent and it was 113 minutes? I find it hard to believe there weren't at least 45 minutes of commercials.


----------



## ahartman

DevdogAZ said:


> Where did that info come from? Did you total them up? Did you download a torrent and it was 113 minutes? I find it hard to believe there weren't at least 45 minutes of commercials.


The torrent I watched was 1:44:26 (our feed was messed up from the station).


----------



## DreadPirateRob

I just checked on iTunes, the it has "The End" as running 1:45:38, which gives us 44:22 of commercials, or within the range that I suggested was reasonable above (which seems more realistic than 37 minutes).


----------



## wprager

jkeegan said:


> Jacob said he brought people to the island to show his brother that there are still good people out there.


Did he ever actually say that? At the start of The Incident he just says that he will prove him wrong, to which MiB replies by quoting "Mother": They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

It's not the same as saying "I'll prove you wrong in thinking that people are all bad." MiB wanted to get off the Island to go "home" across the sea. His original intention was not to get off the Island to destroy the world. In fact, we don't really know for sure what would happen if he got off. Maybe nothing. The problem, I think, is that the only way he could escape the Island was by destroying it, and *that* is what Jacob wanted to prevent.

So, perhaps, what he was trying to convince him of was that he should remain on the Island of his own free will, that he could find a suitable replacement and they could go live in a village like he did for 30 years.


----------



## aindik

> You know those Oceanic 815 plane crash images that ran after Jack's (Matthew Fox) eye closed and the "Lost" logo appeared on our TV screens? Some "Lost" fans and TV critics have wondered if they were a last Easter egg from the producers, a clue meant to lead us to conclude that no one survived Oceanic 815's crash landing - and therefore everything we've seen over the last six years never really happened.
> 
> Well, ABC wants to clear the air: Those photographs were not part of the "Lost" story at all. The network added them to soften the transition from the moving ending of the series to the 11 p.m. news and never considered that it would confuse viewers about the actual ending of the show.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sho...ut-the-series-finales-plane-crash-images.html

This makes sense. The show ends when we see LOST in big letters on the screen. Stuff after that isn't part of the show.


----------



## Polcamilla

zordude said:


> Now answer these:
> 
> Unanswered Lost Questions - http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291


Okay, that was AWESOME!

I can answer exactly one of those questions:

Jacob and Lox's birthmom was from some part of the Roman Empire because she spoke Latin (also fits how she was dressed).

I guess the Island was, at some point, in the Mediterranean?!


----------



## danterner

Remember that on May 20 there was an event called Times Talk Live, simulcast to movie theaters around the country, where TPTB talked about the show? It's available on YouTube now.


----------



## Polcamilla

MickeS said:


> He said "this is a place that you all made together so you could find one another".


And to some degree I interpreted "this" as "this social circle you all seem to be interconnected in" within the greater whole of the FSW world they were in.

My preschool is a co-op. We rent out one building for our school day and another for our meetings and have events at people's houses. The building our school is in is not the preschool, nor is the meeting hall, nor the houses of the members, yet our preschool is a place. It's a place we made together so our kids could go to preschool.


----------



## Polcamilla

rkallerud said:


> Sayid wanted to be with Nadia but didn't think he deserved her, so that became his sideways reality. *But his real soulmate was Shannon.* Once he came to realize that, he was ready to move on.


I do not believe this.


----------



## Hunter Green

My wife is currently watching a movie in which the eccentric guardian of the secrets of a magical place, a man bound by a lot of incomprehensible and poorly-explained rules, brings five candidates to this place, though he doesn't tell them that they're candidates, let alone for what. Each of them is in some way flawed, and the situations and conflicts in this special place force them to explore these flaws. One by one, the candidates are crossed off, until one of them takes over for this man, becoming the new guardian of the magical place and its secrets. Oh, and there's also a lot of candy bars. Of course, we're led to believe that the candidates are chosen by the random chance of who gets a Golden Ticket, but I think we can all be sure that Mr. Wonka arranged who would be chosen, somehow.

Oh, wait, am I on the wrong thread?


----------



## nyny523

Polcamilla said:


> I do not believe this.


I don't either.

But I DO believe that if the Island was, as stated, the most important time in their lives, then Shannon was an important part of that time for Sayid.

He did love her.


----------



## danterner

Hunter Green said:


> Oh, wait, am I on the wrong thread?


Yep.


----------



## jkeegan

wprager said:


> Did he ever actually say that? At the start of The Incident he just says that he will prove him wrong, to which MiB replies by quoting "Mother": They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
> 
> It's not the same as saying "I'll prove you wrong in thinking that people are all bad." MiB wanted to get off the Island to go "home" across the sea. His original intention was not to get off the Island to destroy the world. In fact, we don't really know for sure what would happen if he got off. Maybe nothing. The problem, I think, is that the only way he could escape the Island was by destroying it, and *that* is what Jacob wanted to prevent.
> 
> So, perhaps, what he was trying to convince him of was that he should remain on the Island of his own free will, that he could find a suitable replacement and they could go live in a village like he did for 30 years.


From Ab Aeterno:


> JACOB: My name is Jacob. I'm the one who brought your ship to this island.
> 
> RICHARD: You brought it here? Why?
> 
> JACOB: [picks up the bottle of wine] Think of this wine as what you keep calling hell. There's many other names for it too: malevolence, evil, darkness. And here it is, swirling around in the bottle, unable to get out because if it did, it would spread. The cork [raises cork] is this island and it's the only thing keeping the darkness where it belongs. *That man who sent you to kill me believes that everyone is corruptable because it's in their very nature to sin. I bring people here to prove him wrong.* And when they get here, their past doesn't matter.


----------



## jkeegan

aindik said:


> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sho...ut-the-series-finales-plane-crash-images.html
> 
> This makes sense. The show ends when we see LOST in big letters on the screen. Stuff after that isn't part of the show.


Wow, I can imagine Damon's gotta be PISSED.. His head's gotta be exploding now, wanting to scream that out from the rooftops.


----------



## unicorngoddess

jradford said:


> A friend and I were discussing what allowed Ben to kill Jacob (referring to the "loop hole" not the act of "knife through heart.")
> 
> It had always been my understanding that the "loophole" had to do with Ben being a candidate. I'd seen this postulated elsewhere and had no problems accepting it. My friends idea was that maybe the "loophole" had something to do with being healed by the water as a child. What was the general consensus on this back when it happened?


My take on the loophole (take it or leave it since my credibility seems to be dropping here)

Jacob and mib couldn't kill each other. MIB could only take the form of dead people. MIB would have to convince someone else to kill Jacob, but the only person that was allowed to meet with Jacob were Richard (who was immortal or something so MIB couldn't take his form) and the leader of the Others. But he would need a leader that had died in order to take that form. Enter the time travel concept. This is when it was hinted at to Richard that Locke could be their leader. Then Locke ends up turning a donkey wheel because smokey (in the form of Christian Shepard) tells him to go down there and turn it which leads to Locke dying off island and then his body being brought back to the island. Now MIB has the ability to impersonate a leader. In that form, he's able to use his powers of persuasion to get Ben to kill Jacob. Since everyone assumed Flocke was the real lock and he was destined to be their leader, nobody stooped him from taking Ben to see Jacob...which opened the door for Jacob to be killed.


----------



## Polcamilla

nyny523 said:


> But I DO believe that if the Island was, as stated, the most important time in their lives, then Shannon was an important part of that time for Sayid.
> 
> He did love her.


Sure. That's completely reasonable.

Going to Heaven with her like that just feels like one of the pairings at the end of Harry Potter. You could see *why* the author did it that way, but it's not right.


----------



## jkeegan

Hunter Green said:


> My wife is currently watching a movie in which the eccentric guardian of the secrets of a magical place, a man bound by a lot of incomprehensible and poorly-explained rules, brings five candidates to this place, though he doesn't tell them that they're candidates, let alone for what. Each of them is in some way flawed, and the situations and conflicts in this special place force them to explore these flaws. One by one, the candidates are crossed off, until one of them takes over for this man, becoming the new guardian of the magical place and its secrets. Oh, and there's also a lot of candy bars. Of course, we're led to believe that the candidates are chosen by the random chance of who gets a Golden Ticket, but I think we can all be sure that Mr. Wonka arranged who would be chosen, somehow.
> 
> Oh, wait, am I on the wrong thread?


For the first sentence I almost thought you meant Dorothy, the Tin Man, the Scarecrow, the Cowardly Lion, and reaching for a fifth, I thought maybe Toto. 

YES!!! The DANGER must be growing, for the rowers keep on rowing, and they're CERTAINLY NOT SHOWING, ANY SIGNS THAT THEY ARE SLOWING!!!!


----------



## jkeegan

nyny523 said:


> I don't either.
> 
> But I DO believe that if the Island was, as stated, the most important time in their lives, then Shannon was an important part of that time for Sayid.
> 
> He did love her.


And don't forget, Sayid was an important person for HER..


----------



## Polcamilla

jkeegan said:


> And don't forget, Sayid was an important person for HER..


I think the part that throws people is that she was never important for US.


----------



## nyny523

Polcamilla said:


> Sure. That's completely reasonable.
> 
> Going to Heaven with her like that just feels like one of the pairings at the end of Harry Potter. You could see *why* the author did it that way, but it's not right.


We also don't know that Nadia felt the same way about Sayid. Maybe she felt HER soul mate was his brother. Then she would want to be with him.



jkeegan said:


> And don't forget, Sayid was an important person for HER..


Very true - I think HE was HER soul mate.


----------



## Hunter Green

danterner said:


> Yep.


Ah, never saw that the first time because of the spoilers tags. Sorry!


----------



## wprager

Hunter Green said:


> My wife is currently watching a movie in which the eccentric guardian of the secrets of a magical place, a man bound by a lot of incomprehensible and poorly-explained rules, brings five candidates to this place, though he doesn't tell them that they're candidates, let alone for what. Each of them is in some way flawed, and the situations and conflicts in this special place force them to explore these flaws. One by one, the candidates are crossed off, until one of them takes over for this man, becoming the new guardian of the magical place and its secrets. Oh, and there's also a lot of candy bars. Of course, we're led to believe that the candidates are chosen by the random chance of who gets a Golden Ticket, but I think we can all be sure that Mr. Wonka arranged who would be chosen, somehow.
> 
> Oh, wait, am I on the wrong thread?


SPOILER TAGS!!!

:up:


----------



## wprager

jkeegan said:


> From Ab Aeterno:


Ah, thank you.


----------



## wprager

jkeegan said:


> Wow, I can imagine Damon's gotta be PISSED.. His head's gotta be exploding now, wanting to scream that out from the rooftops.


On CTV (Canada) we got "Lost" then the Bad Robot clip, and then that was it. The credits rolled while they had some promos for shows coming up. Never saw the wreckage.


----------



## gossamer88

Saw it again today. The ending got me more today than the first time.


----------



## Mike Wells

jkeegan said:


> Wow, I can imagine Damon's gotta be PISSED.. His head's gotta be exploding now, wanting to scream that out from the rooftops.


Well, at least it's cleared up know. I can't imagine all of the discussion going on about those shots all over the internet. We had a few posts on it here, I believe.


----------



## DevdogAZ

ahartman said:


> The torrent I watched was 1:44:26 (our feed was messed up from the station).





DreadPirateRob said:


> I just checked on iTunes, the it has "The End" as running 1:45:38, which gives us 44:22 of commercials, or within the range that I suggested was reasonable above (which seems more realistic than 37 minutes).


OK, that makes more sense. About 45 minutes of commercials was expected for this (I actually thought it would be about 50).


jkeegan said:


> Wow, I can imagine Damon's gotta be PISSED.. His head's gotta be exploding now, wanting to scream that out from the rooftops.


I doubt they're PISSED. It was a nice tribute that ABC did. I was glad to see the set of the pilot. I don't understand where the confusion came from, and I doubt Darlton is worrying too much about it.


----------



## Dnamertz

MickeS said:


> Seriously? Did you also come away from "The Phantom menace" upset that Lucas didn't delve more into exactly HOW the Midichlorians communicated with the Force? And why didn't he explain WHAT the Force is? And in "Raiders of the Lost ark", I can't believe there wasn't an explanation exactly of HOW God knew to kill Nazis and WHY it was enough to close your eyes to escape death?
> .


Sorry, but I have to really disagree with this. Lost was about a group of people form the real world, just like us, landing on an island that was nothing like the world they knew and was just as mysterious to them as it was to us. All during the series, those characters were looking for the same answers we were.

From the minute Star Wars started, you knew it was a completely different world, and all the characters understood that world. Fans of Star Wars didn't leave the theater saying "how does the force work...I hope they explain that in the next movie".


----------



## wprager

Polcamilla said:


> Sure. That's completely reasonable.
> 
> Going to Heaven with her like that just *feels like one of the pairings at the end of Harry Potter*. You could see *why* the author did it that way, but it's not right.


Which one? They telegraphed Harry and Ginny in the first book. Sure, the actors did not seem to have much chemistry, but that's not the author's fault.

And not that I'm a Ron-Hermiony 'shipper, but what was wrong with that?


----------



## wprager

nyny523 said:


> We also don't know that Nadia felt the same way about Sayid. Maybe she felt HER soul mate was his brother. Then she would want to be with him.
> 
> Very true - I think HE was HER soul mate.


When they got off the Island, Nadia was there to meet Sayid. They got married (or were about to) when she got killed. Wasn't that what drove him to become Ben's assassin?

And, come to think of it, that's when Jacob touched Sayid -- so wasn't that *way* after he went to the Island?


----------



## nyny523

Dnamertz said:


> Sorry, but I have to really disagree with this. Lost was about a group of people form the real world, just like us, landing on an island that was nothing like the world they knew and was just as mysterious to them as it was to us. All during the series, those characters were looking for the same answers we were.
> 
> From the minute Star Wars started, you knew it was a completely different world, and all the characters understood that world. Fans of Star Wars didn't leave the theater saying "how does the force work...I hope they explain that in the next movie".


It's a STORY.

A fictional story about fictional characters played by actors.

Fully scripted.

To me, it was as much a completely different world as any other fictional tale.

None of it is real.


----------



## wprager

Dnamertz said:


> Sorry, but I have to really disagree with this. Lost was about a group of people form the real world, just like us, landing on an island that was nothing like the world they knew and was just as mysterious to them as it was to us. All during the series, those characters were looking for the same answers we were.
> 
> From the minute Star Wars started, you knew it was a completely different world, and all the characters understood that world. Fans of Star Wars didn't leave the theater saying "how does the force work...I hope they explain that in the next movie".


Nazis and Indy were from our world.


----------



## sushikitten

Wow.

I have to say it didn't end as I hoped it would. Don't get me wrong, I didn't hate it... I just wanted a true happy ending. Sure, you can infer that their lives all had happy endings, but I wanted to know the sideways world was REAL. I was hoping for an integration from the current island timeline to the sideways world, with whatever happened in the light chamber. 

Don't get me wrong, I was definitely along for the emotional ride--I was crying at just about every reunion and by the end I was a mess. Over a stupid TV show, ugh.  (Gotta love being a sap.) The worst, though (as I saw mentioned earlier), was Vincent coming to lay with Jack as he died. Oh. My. Gawd. /bawl

I am truly sad this story is over, even if I didn't particularly care for the ending.


----------



## jeff125va

aindik said:


> Did he say they created it "in their minds," or just that it's a "place" that they created?


Ok I guess the "in their minds" part was just in my mind (I didn't intend it as a direct quote) but I think that that still captures the essence of what he was saying. That is, it's outside of what we know as the "real" world (within the show, of course).


----------



## jkeegan

unicorngoddess said:


> My take on the loophole (take it or leave it since my credibility seems to be dropping here)
> 
> Jacob and mib couldn't kill each other. MIB could only take the form of dead people. MIB would have to convince someone else to kill Jacob, but the only person that was allowed to meet with Jacob were Richard (who was immortal or something so MIB couldn't take his form) and the leader of the Others. But he would need a leader that had died in order to take that form. Enter the time travel concept. This is when it was hinted at to Richard that Locke could be their leader. Then Locke ends up turning a donkey wheel because smokey (in the form of Christian Shepard) tells him to go down there and turn it which leads to Locke dying off island and then his body being brought back to the island. Now MIB has the ability to impersonate a leader. In that form, he's able to use his powers of persuasion to get Ben to kill Jacob. Since everyone assumed Flocke was the real lock and he was destined to be their leader, nobody stooped him from taking Ben to see Jacob...which opened the door for Jacob to be killed.


Sounds a bit familiar...


----------



## Dnamertz

wprager said:


> Nazis and Indy were from our world.


Yes, but a lot of people believe in God...so the 1 or 2 "mysterious" parts of Raiders weren't really that unbelievable to most people.


----------



## jkeegan

DevdogAZ said:


> I doubt they're PISSED. It was a nice tribute that ABC did. I was glad to see the set of the pilot. I don't understand where the confusion came from, and I doubt Darlton is worrying too much about it.


I read that Damon had tweeted something one week like "YES I saw the big V clock on the screen. Now I'm going to go cry myself to sleep".

Not being able to talk because of self-imposed silence, and having people ponder something OTHER than the already-worthy-of-careful-thought ending that you just showed them, would make me pretty upset.


----------



## Dnamertz

nyny523 said:


> It's a STORY.
> 
> A fictional story about fictional characters played by actors.
> 
> Fully scripted.
> 
> To me, it was as much a completely different world as any other fictional tale.
> 
> None of it is real.


You missed my point. Sure, they are all fictional but to say that people shouldn't expect answers to this show's constant mysteries any more than they should expect answers to any other show is ridiculous. Did you talk to other Lost fans during the last 6 seasons? Did you visit this forum after episodes? People were constantly asking "What does this mean? What does that mean? What is that guy's story?" People were not asking these types of questions after Star Wars, or Grey's Anatomy, or most other fictional shows. But they were with Lost.


----------



## jeff125va

jkeegan said:


> I'd say that by paying for her lunchbox and removing her life lesson of negative consequences for negative acts, he changed her mindset enough that she'd just go over that line and actually carry out killing her stepfather, instead of planning to and backing out at the last minute because of the consequences.. (or maybe she just chose not to kill him at all, and the universe course-correcting had someone else do it and she got blamed.. either works).


Yeah, I agree that's probably how he affected her life in the real world. I just mean she wasn't featured a whole lot in the alternate timeline, other than being on the run, but we don't really know much about why. Your speculation makes sense though.


----------



## Polcamilla

wprager said:


> Which one? They telegraphed Harry and Ginny in the first book. Sure, the actors did not seem to have much chemistry, but that's not the author's fault.
> 
> And not that I'm a Ron-Hermiony 'shipper, but what was wrong with that?


Neither of those.


----------



## ronsch

Sir_winealot said:


> Wrong. The commercials totalled approximately 37 minutes.
> 
> This. :up:





DreadPirateRob said:


> Apparently.  There are usually between 17-18 minutes of commercials in an hour show, and 8-9 minutes in a half-hour show, so we really should had to FF through 42-45 worth. We got off easy.


Interesting that the reshowing this coming Saturday is scheduled for 2:05 and you can bet that there will still be plenty of commercials!


----------



## ronsch

sushikitten said:


> Wow.
> 
> I have to say it didn't end as I hoped it would. Don't get me wrong, I didn't hate it... I just wanted a true happy ending. Sure, you can infer that their lives all had happy endings, but I wanted to know the sideways world was REAL. I was hoping for an integration from the current island timeline to the sideways world, with whatever happened in the light chamber.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I was definitely along for the emotional ride--I was crying at just about every reunion and by the end I was a mess. Over a stupid TV show, ugh.  (Gotta love being a sap.) The worst, though (as I saw mentioned earlier), was Vincent coming to lay with Jack as he died. Oh. My. Gawd. /bawl
> 
> I am truly sad this story is over, even if I didn't particularly care for the ending.


Just finished a quick scan viewing of the entire episode focusing on the remembering scenes and it affected me even more this time even though I did a quick scan watching of the last hour last night too. Also watched the Kimmel special this evening. That was pretty good. And replayed the recap show for my wife who didn't get to see it Sunday. Need to give Lost a break and catch up with SG:U and Chuck. And maybe even break out a B5 dvd.


----------



## jkeegan

ronsch said:


> Interesting that the reshowing this coming Saturday is scheduled for 2:05 and you can bet that there will still be plenty of commercials!


I wonder if they'll take out the beach scenes..


----------



## vman

appleye1 said:


> I think Ben's not in the church because he's taken over as #1 from Hurley. For whatever reason Hurley has died and is now joining the ones to "move on". Ben is just visiting the sideways world to see everyone off.





zordude said:


> I don't think that makes sense given that he had the same "flackback memory" that everyone else did, if he was visiting he would have been in the know the whole time.
> 
> He just knows he doesn't belong with them.
> 
> Z


Ben says to Locke at the church "I have some things I still need to work out. I think I'll stay here a while." Seems clear he's just not quite ready to move on, but I don't think it has to do with now being number 1.



rkallerud said:


> To me, the sideways world is the afterlife, and exists outside of time and place. People arrive there after they die, whenever it is that they die.
> 
> But why were Jin and Sun not married? Why did Jack have a son? Why was he with Juliet? Why was Locke with Helen and why did he want to stay in his wheelchair? Why was Sayid not with Nadia? Why was Hurley the luckiest man in the world instead of the unluckiest? At first blush, it all seems very arbitrary,
> 
> I think that the circumstances in this afterlife represented what each of the characters thought that they (or their soul) deserved (or possibly desired) in life.
> 
> Each of the awakenings comes when the character is presented with what their soul truly wanted or deserved. Once you find your soulmate or your purpose, you awaken, and you're "ready" to "let go of" or move on from this in-between afterlife into that light towards some conception of heaven.
> 
> Sayid wanted to be with Nadia but didn't think he deserved her, so that became his sideways reality. But his real soulmate was Shannon. Once he came to realize that, he was ready to move on. Jack thought he wanted a son to make up for his fractured relationship with his father, but once he realized that what what his soul truly needed was reconciliation with his father, he was ready to move on. Locke thought Helen was his soulmate and wanted his father to suffer with physical disability, but he also felt guilt and thought he deserved to stay in his wheelchair. He only was ready to move on when he was able to wiggle his toe and he realized that his destiny was for him to be able to walk again.
> 
> It's just a theory right now, and I can't say for sure it works for all of the characters, but it's what makes the most sense to me right now...


This is very similar to what I was trying to say earlier, but you did a much better job of it.:up:



jkeegan said:


> Agh - again.. Ethan was born on the island (and we have every reason to believe that he was conceived there). People could be born on the island fine until the bomb went off. That had nothing to do with Jacob. Richard even told Locke that Ben's obsession with this trivial detail felt like a distraction to most of them.. It wasn't a Jacob rule - it was the bomb.


Why do we have every reason to believe Ethan was conceived there? Other than the symmetry of Juliette being brought to the island to fix something she had created, why do we think this was something that only started after the explosion? Also, I'm also not sure how long the "natives" have actually been around - while we suspect Jacob and MIB have been at this a very long time, Richard "only" arrived 150 years ago, and the rest of the natives may have arrived after him (perhaps recruited by him?).



jkeegan said:


> Interesting theory.. I'll go back to three words though: Dead is dead.


Not for Sayid, which bothers me more and more.



jkeegan said:


> Yeah but in fairness on this issue, it's understandable why people would take a bit of time to digest this one. There was clearly no "time" during which any group of Losties that included Jack could consciously "create" this place.. We never saw them sit around and say "ok, next one that gets powers, create a place for us all to meet after we die".. We also didn't see anyone say "Everyone, think/believe/wish REALLY hard that when we die we'll have a place together to meet up..."..
> 
> So it's been tough to do, but I'm starting to accept the idea that they all created it _subconsciously_.. That subconsciously part feels a bit like a cop-out though, because they'd all have to at least been exposed to the idea (so their subconsciouses could know it) that maybe it was possible to create/will-into-creation some afterlife game lobby to meet up in.
> 
> So it's certainly easier to start thinking that maybe Hurley or Jack, who have "powers" (which would seem to at least do fantastic things like allow them to make people immortal and stop guns from firing off-island) might actually have created that place (or helped people's subconsciousnesses realize that they could/should create that place).
> 
> But in general, yeah, here at the end (where there's no reason for anyone to lie to us to preserve a secret for a later episode), if we're clearly told something, we should be pretty inclined to take it at face value.


Not sure why this is hard to grasp - they clearly could not subconsciously plan to create a joint world after they died so they could find each other. Give the presence of Ben, Faraday, Charlotte etc... it seems like a place everyone goes to after they die until they are ready to move on. Each person just creates their own part of that world.

What I find interesting is that Jack was the last one to come around, and seemed to resist the hardest, since he seemed the most at peace at the time of his actual death.


----------



## unicorngoddess

jkeegan said:


> Sounds a bit familiar...


So I guess forgive me for not participating in those two complete separate threads.


----------



## MickeS

aindik said:


> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sho...ut-the-series-finales-plane-crash-images.html
> 
> This makes sense. The show ends when we see LOST in big letters on the screen. Stuff after that isn't part of the show.


That's how I interpreted it. I'm actually surprised people believed it was part of the show.


----------



## cmontyburns

MickeS said:


> That's how I interpreted it. I'm actually surprised people believed it was part of the show.


I'm beyond surprised; I'm astonished.


----------



## vman

unicorngoddess said:


> My take on the loophole (take it or leave it since my credibility seems to be dropping here)
> 
> Jacob and mib couldn't kill each other. MIB could only take the form of dead people. MIB would have to convince someone else to kill Jacob, but the only person that was allowed to meet with Jacob were Richard (who was immortal or something so MIB couldn't take his form) and the leader of the Others. But he would need a leader that had died in order to take that form. Enter the time travel concept. This is when it was hinted at to Richard that Locke could be their leader. Then Locke ends up turning a donkey wheel because smokey (in the form of Christian Shepard) tells him to go down there and turn it which leads to Locke dying off island and then his body being brought back to the island. Now MIB has the ability to impersonate a leader. In that form, he's able to use his powers of persuasion to get Ben to kill Jacob. Since everyone assumed Flocke was the real lock and he was destined to be their leader, nobody stooped him from taking Ben to see Jacob...which opened the door for Jacob to be killed.


What i find interesting about this is that Jacob seemed to add a rule - once MIB figured out he could get someone else to kill Jacob (although it seemed to take a LONG time to figure that out - around 1800 years?) it seems like Jacob added a rule saying only Richard and the leader of the others could see him.


----------



## latrobe7




----------



## getreal

Polcamilla said:


> And to some degree I interpreted "this" as "this social circle you all seem to be interconnected in" within the greater whole of the FSW world they were in.
> 
> My preschool is a co-op. We rent out one building for our school day and another for our meetings and have events at people's houses. The building our school is in is not the preschool, nor is the meeting hall, nor the houses of the members, yet our preschool is a place. It's a place we made together so our kids could go to preschool.


And I'll bet that everyone does not have to be already dead to enter the preschool. 

Nice analogy. :up:



jkeegan said:


> I wonder if they'll take out the beach scenes..


[sawyer]SonofaBEACH![/sawyer]


----------



## Dnamertz

zync said:


> I disagree here. If you go back to the first few seasons, which I'd admit was before the characters were developed, the island WAS the story. Everything that we loved about lost was wrapped up in the island's story. Then, over time, the characters became well developed and their stories took focus. But that doesn't mean that the island's story, or the need to tell it, went away.
> 
> The writers spent most of this season creating, and then explaining, a new story which was did little to advance the story from the first 5 seasons. This was my disappointment - so much time was spent on this new story that could have been spent on answering the original story, that when these questions remained unanswered one feels cheated.
> 
> So in short, the feeling of fulfillment I have comes from the answering of this season's side story. :up: The feeling of disappointment comes from the failure to answer the story of the first 5 seasons. :down::down::down:


I agree with your entire statement 100%. I like the entire series, and I like the fact that the flash side-ways was purgatory...but I do agree that the whole flash side-ways/purgatory aspect was really a departure from the story of the 1st 5 seasons. For those saying "the purgatory aspect is important because the story is about the characters"...well that could be said about most series. You can really take almost any series and make the final season a "purgatory" season where all the characters meet up and remember how great their time together was...but what would that have to do with previous season's storylines? Heck, maybe Seinfeld should have ended with a "purgatory" episode...would have been better than the clip-show.

The main thing I don't understand is why were some of their lives different in purgatory?

1. Why did Jack have a son and why was his wife (or ex-wife) Julliette?
2. Why were Jin and Sun not married (and why wasn't their daughter there)? 
3. Why were they all living their purgatory live's from the point in time the plane landed at LAX? For example, Claire gave birth in real life, so why was she pregnant again in purgatory?


----------



## jkeegan

vman said:


> Why do we have every reason to believe Ethan was conceived there? Other than the symmetry of Juliette being brought to the island to fix something she had created, why do we think this was something that only started after the explosion?


Given that we've seen everything we're going to see, story wise I think it's pretty clear _just based on that symmetry_ that he was born there (for some nice circular logic), but I'll go a bit further. Amy was Ethan's mother. She was married to Paul, who was killed at a picnic they were having in Hostile territory across the sonic fence barrier. Paul had a necklace that was an Ankh, and the Hostiles wanted to retrieve his body. That has me thinking that Paul was already involved with the Hostiles.. That's more reason to believe that Amy and Paul were on-island when they conceived the child, in my mind.. (Jacob doesn't seem to want his people to leave the island, and at least those people - the Hostiles - listen to rules that he's laid out via Richard).

Ethan himself becomes a Hostile. That also lends heavily (in my mind anyway) towards believing he was born there - they'd be interested in that baby since he was born on the island.

No one seemed particularly worried when Ethan was born. He was premature, so they couldn't go off-island to have him, but no one was terribly worried (that I remember anyway).

FWIW, even though it was just made by people, lostpedia lists Ethan Rom as the last person conceived & born on the island. But I'm the first to say that that's just people writing that - could be wrong.



> Also, I'm also not sure how long the "natives" have actually been around - while we suspect Jacob and MIB have been at this a very long time, Richard "only" arrived 150 years ago, and the rest of the natives may have arrived after him (perhaps recruited by him?).


They're no older than 150 years, because when Richard got there, Jacob said that there had been many people there before him, but now they were all dead.



> Not for Sayid, which bothers me more and more.


Yeah I'm not crazy about that either..


----------



## jkeegan

vman said:


> What i find interesting about this is that Jacob seemed to add a rule - once MIB figured out he could get someone else to kill Jacob (although it seemed to take a LONG time to figure that out - around 1800 years?) it seems like Jacob added a rule saying only Richard and the leader of the others could see him.


He probably added that rule after MiB tried to kill him via Richard.


----------



## Wil

nyny523 said:


> None of it is real.


Christian said it was all real. Except that he had also said the sideways wasn't real. And of course there were mistakes and things that weren't important enough to bother with. And magic. But mostly it was all real. Except the last shots which were added by ABC so they weren't real, not really. And the Robot. Not real. Bad, very very bad, but not real.


----------



## wprager

Dnamertz said:


> Yes, but a lot of people believe in God...so the 1 or 2 "mysterious" parts of Raiders weren't really that unbelievable to most people.


So add me to the list of people who missed your point.



Dnamertz said:


> Sorry, but I have to really disagree with this. Lost was about a group of people form the real world, just like us, landing on an island that was nothing like the world they knew and was just as mysterious to them as it was to us. All during the series, those characters were looking for the same answers we were.
> 
> From the minute Star Wars started, you knew it was a completely different world, and all the characters understood that world. Fans of Star Wars didn't leave the theater saying "how does the force work...I hope they explain that in the next movie".


Nicely addressed. Yes, Star Wars was clearly a story set "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away". But the post to which you were replying mentioned Indiana Jones alongside Star Wars, and you (conveniently?) ignored that in your response.


----------



## Turtleboy

In the early days of the show, the producers often talked about how much the Stephen King novel, _The Stand_, influenced the show.

We didn't hear much about it in the latter seasons though.


----------



## Turtleboy

Wil said:


> Christian said it was all real. Except that he had also said the sideways wasn't real. And of course there were mistakes and things that weren't important enough to bother with. And magic. But mostly it was all real. Except the last shots which were added by ABC so they weren't real, not really. And the Robot. Not real. Bad, very very bad, but not real.


No, I think she means that it's not real because it was on TV, that it was fiction. I don't think she was talking about what elements of the story were "real" and "not real." Just that the whole thing wasn't real because it was a tv show.


----------



## wprager

Polcamilla said:


> Neither of those.


But those four are, essentially, the main characters. Now I'm really curious


----------



## nyny523

Dnamertz said:


> You missed my point. Sure, they are all fictional but to say that people shouldn't expect answers to this show's constant mysteries any more than they should expect answers to any other show is ridiculous. Did you talk to other Lost fans during the last 6 seasons? Did you visit this forum after episodes? People were constantly asking "What does this mean? What does that mean? What is that guy's story?" People were not asking these types of questions after Star Wars, or Grey's Anatomy, or most other fictional shows. But they were with Lost.


As I stated earlier in the thread, my interest was the characters. Frankly, I found most of the stuff that people obsessed about kinda silly - for me. I can appreciate that others enjoyed the geeky stuff. But for me, it was just sort of noise that surrounded what the story was REALLY about, which was the people and their pasts and their futures and their interactions with each other in a unique situation. I really did not care much what the rest meant.



Wil said:


> Christian said it was all real. Except that he had also said the sideways wasn't real. And of course there were mistakes and things that weren't important enough to bother with. And magic. But mostly it was all real. Except the last shots which were added by ABC so they weren't real, not really. And the Robot. Not real. Bad, very very bad, but not real.


The SHOW was not real. The show is a STORY. NONE of the people or situations is real. It's FICTION. In a story, as in life, we don't always get all the answers. It may be argued that the best stories leave you with the most questions - they allow people to interpret things based on their own observations and experiences.


----------



## stinkbomb1020

Yes I have a small post count...
I think that the FSW/Purgatory probably was and is based on Jack's mind set as he was dying in the bamboo field. I believe in a major way that this FSW that HE was experiencing and that he contemplated was very much like a dream. The shortened airliner engine sound precedes and cues each FSW and they are all linked to the final and longer airliner sound that comes right before he closes his eyes. I think it's fair to say that dreams don't always make sense. Some are flat out crazy. Others have meaning and can reflect the individuals desires, fears, etc. Dreams can be about anything that the person has or has not experienced. For the most part, all the questions raised about certain elements regarding the FSW can be explained as it was simply Jack's creation, whether a dream or spiritual realization. His love ones along with divine intervention paved the road for his soul to follow.
In his final moments, Jack experiences his "heavenly awakening" and salvation in the spiritual realm. This concludes his FSW. In the living realm he sees the plane fly over and closes his eyes. The last thing he sees and hears. The End.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

stinkbomb1020 said:


> I think that the FSW/Purgatory probably was and is based on Jack's mind set as he was dying in the bamboo field...


Although I think they intended it to be exactly what Christian said it was, I prefer to believe that you are correct. Even "it was all a dream" is preferable to, er, collective purgatory fantasy world where some people go and some people don't and it's all based on things some of the people there didn't experience and, er, whatever.

Again, the emotional power of the episode made it worthwhile in a way that, e.g., the Battlestar finale wasn't. I just wish the whole sidewayverse had been more integrated into the story itself, instead of just an excuse to give everybody the endings that the writers wanted.


----------



## Turtleboy

So when Island Desmond was put into the Magno-box by Widmore, he saw the purgatory world. However, it didn't seem like he realized that is what it was. Because Island Desmond was eager to do things to get there. If he knew that he had to die first, and abandon the real life Penny and baby Charlie, he wouldn't have done it.

What was Island Desmond's motivation?

I guess that Puragtory Desmond did know he was dead. That's why he could run down Locke with his car. He wasn't trying to kill him, because he was already dead.

Also, in Purgatory, when each character came to their realization, did they each instantly realize that they were dead? It seems so.


----------



## jlb

Two interesting tidbits for today.

Saw an article on tvguide's site that ABC came out and said the wreckage at the end credits was NOT part of the story narrative. Instead they meant it as an opportunity for the viewers to decompress before watching the news. ROTFLMAO!!!!! How stupid....

Listened to Jorge's podcast today. He had an interesting story regarding the fight scene between Flocke and Jack.

Jorge said that the producers were having a hard time finding padding for Matthew Fox to wear and not have it noticable. He stated that padding was necessary since even the collapsable knives can hurt. Well, they finally found one.

Now, in the scene, they start filming with the real knife and then there is an off-cam opportunity for Terry Oquinn to swap the real knife for the collapsble knife.

Only when they went for the first take, TO forgot to swap. And the vest MF wore was the only padded vest they had which had kevlar in it. Jorge said that as TO is "stabbing" MF, he went so white/pale from fear. I guess things went exactly as they had to for MF not to get stabbed for real.......


----------



## Dnamertz

wprager said:


> So add me to the list of people who missed your point.


Let me put it this way...Are you really trying to say that Star Wars or Indiana Jones (or most movies/TV shows) were presented in a way to keeps us all guessing about what was happening? Things in Lost were revealed each week (intentionally, I believe) that kept us asking questions. Do you see any websites for other shows devoted to trying to "figure things out" the way you do with Lost?

People keep saying it's about the characters...well, along this whole ride I kind of felt like one of these characters and I was looking for the same answers they were. When Hurley saw those numbers on the hatch, did you say "eh, it's just fiction, that makes perfect sense that those same numbers would be there"? Most of us had the same reaction as Hurley and said "OMG, how did those numbers get there"...and we were trying to figure it out like Hurley was. When I saw a light saber, I didn't say "OMG, that thing needs to be explained"...maybe because none of the other characters in the movie seemed surprised to see it either.



wprager said:


> Nicely addressed. Yes, Star Wars was clearly a story set "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away". But the post to which you were replying mentioned Indiana Jones alongside Star Wars, and you (conveniently?) ignored that in your response.


I addressed it later, but not at first. That's because Star Wars seemed like the better analogy. Only about 1% of what happened in Indiana Jones seemed "unbelievable".


----------



## jlb

BTW, for GJB fans, Jorge said that as of June 5, the GJB email account will shut down. The blog will stay up as an archive. Not sure about the GJB twitter.

Jorge and Beth will be doing a new blog/podcast things but they have not yet said what it will be. I emailed them asking for details or the best way to find out once they finalize their plans. Will post if I hear anything....


----------



## Sir_winealot

DevdogAZ said:


> Where did that info come from? Did you total them up? Did you download a torrent and it was 113 minutes? I find it hard to believe there weren't at least 45 minutes of commercials.


We began watching the (recorded) finale at 8:45pm, and ff'd through every set of commercials. We finished watching at 10:38pm....37 minutes ahead of the 2 1/2 hour total length, hence my 'commercial approximation time.'

My kids normally hit the bed at 10:30, so I kept a close eye on the clock.


----------



## Anubys

nyny523 said:


> We also don't know that Nadia felt the same way about Sayid. Maybe she felt HER soul mate was his brother. Then she would want to be with him.
> 
> Very true - I think HE was HER soul mate.


I'm not sure I see things that way...Nadia, to me, was always Sayid's conscience...his tether to being good...it wasn't real love...Nadia, from her side, seemed to always love Sayid as a brother (ok, forget the brief marriage...yuk!)...

in the end, I don't think it was ever a love like James/Juliette or Kate/Jack...Nadia was more of a fantasy to Sayid...she wasn't real (in the metaphoric sense)...

Shannon, OTOH, loved Sayid for who he was...the complete person...and Sayid loved her back just as equally, despite her obvious flaws as well...that was the purer love...


----------



## Squeak

Finally got around to watching the end last night.

I remember someone posted this spoiler from a couple of episodes ago -- it was a call sheet from this finale:

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2010/04/lostcall1.jpg

Interesting that they call the place with the water where Jack is "Hell".


----------



## jradford

unicorngoddess said:


> My take on the loophole (take it or leave it since my credibility seems to be dropping here)
> 
> Jacob and mib couldn't kill each other. MIB could only take the form of dead people. MIB would have to convince someone else to kill Jacob, but the only person that was allowed to meet with Jacob were Richard (who was immortal or something so MIB couldn't take his form) and the leader of the Others. But he would need a leader that had died in order to take that form. Enter the time travel concept. This is when it was hinted at to Richard that Locke could be their leader. Then Locke ends up turning a donkey wheel because smokey (in the form of Christian Shepard) tells him to go down there and turn it which leads to Locke dying off island and then his body being brought back to the island. Now MIB has the ability to impersonate a leader. In that form, he's able to use his powers of persuasion to get Ben to kill Jacob. Since everyone assumed Flocke was the real lock and he was destined to be their leader, nobody stooped him from taking Ben to see Jacob...which opened the door for Jacob to be killed.


That works, too, but I guess the "Loophole" is one of those questions that will never have a definitive answer. Here is the theory I was referring to in my original post, with much more detail:



> I had a theory that Jacob was made special from the water, so he had to be killed by someone who was healed by the water. Thats why MIB manipulated both Locke and Ben in the sideways world to orchestrate a return and time travel scenario in which sayid would shoot a young Ben, allowing him to be healed at the temple. Then orchestrating a 30 year turn against Jacob culminating in killing him with the special knife. I think Dogen thought this same scenario would allow MIB to be killed by Sayid, so that is why he sent Sayid to kill MIB with the knife. It was the water that gave you the power to kill a "special" being. That is why the MIB didn't just manipulate every single person into killing Jacob. He had to find a much more difficult loophole.


----------



## jking

jkeegan said:


> Given that we've seen everything we're going to see, story wise I think it's pretty clear _just based on that symmetry_ that he was born there (for some nice circular logic), but I'll go a bit further. Amy was Ethan's mother. She was married to Paul, who was killed at a picnic they were having in Hostile territory across the sonic fence barrier. Paul had a necklace that was an Ankh, and the Hostiles wanted to retrieve his body. That has me thinking that Paul was already involved with the Hostiles.. That's more reason to believe that Amy and Paul were on-island when they conceived the child, in my mind.. (Jacob doesn't seem to want his people to leave the island, and at least those people - the Hostiles - listen to rules that he's laid out via Richard).
> 
> Ethan himself becomes a Hostile. That also lends heavily (in my mind anyway) towards believing he was born there - they'd be interested in that baby since he was born on the island.
> 
> No one seemed particularly worried when Ethan was born. He was premature, so they couldn't go off-island to have him, but no one was terribly worried (that I remember anyway).
> 
> FWIW, even though it was just made by people, lostpedia lists Ethan Rom as the last person conceived & born on the island. But I'm the first to say that that's just people writing that - could be wrong.


All good logic, and I agree that Ethan was conceived on the island. But for the record I'm pretty sure Horace was his father. Ethan wasn't born until 3 years after the picnic incident.


----------



## Anubys

Ben himself said that people were conceived and born on the island all the time...then all of a sudden, it stopped...this is why they brought Juliette to the island...

now Ben is a huge liar, but there is a bit of evidence (e.g. Ethan), that this is true...I think even Richard confirmed this at some point...


----------



## uncdrew

Polcamilla said:


> Sure. That's completely reasonable.
> 
> Going to Heaven with her like that just feels like one of the pairings at the end of Harry Potter. You could see *why* the author did it that way, but it's not right.


Completely agree.

I guess the only things that make sense (to me) as to why she was there with Sayid is that she was a bit dramatic and at first in denial about being Lost. Then it hit her and her emotions ran high -- then she fell for someone. Then she died.

Most of us don't die while in the honeymoon period of a relationship. In that time the relationship consumes you and it's all you think about and care about. Her death right at that time most definitely makes Sayid needed at the pearly gates.


----------



## jkeegan

stinkbomb1020 said:


> Yes I have a small post count...
> I think that the FSW/Purgatory probably was and is based on Jack's mind set as he was dying in the bamboo field. I believe in a major way that this FSW that HE was experiencing and that he contemplated was very much like a dream. The shortened airliner engine sound precedes and cues each FSW and they are all linked to the final and longer airliner sound that comes right before he closes his eyes. I think it's fair to say that dreams don't always make sense. Some are flat out crazy. Others have meaning and can reflect the individuals desires, fears, etc. Dreams can be about anything that the person has or has not experienced. For the most part, all the questions raised about certain elements regarding the FSW can be explained as it was simply Jack's creation, whether a dream or spiritual realization. His love ones along with divine intervention paved the road for his soul to follow.
> In his final moments, Jack experiences his "heavenly awakening" and salvation in the spiritual realm. This concludes his FSW. In the living realm he sees the plane fly over and closes his eyes. The last thing he sees and hears. The End.


The part of this that I like most and latch onto is the idea that Jack experiences his entire flash sideways (including walking into the light) in the instant BEFORE he closes his eye on the beach. I like that so much more than him closing his eye, dying, and going to the sideways place before moving on.

I still think it's a shared experience though.

Maybe the sideways is a combination of Hurley and everyone making it. Hurley makes a rule that changes the universe such that any one of them dying (from the past to way in the future) has a quick moment where they're thoughts and feelings are examined (ala smokey scanning someone's thoughts/history) to make a more of the tapestry of the sideways world that they'd all occupy. At the start of that world outside time, it's constructed, their thoughts/consciousnesses are all transported there for an instant of real time, they live out what they've all made, go into the light, then they're all returned mentally to their moment of death to actually die.

I'd say that's still consistent with Christian's acknowledgement to Jack's statement that he died, since saying "well... ALMOST!!l" would confuse the hell out of Jack.

Want to rewatch. Later.


----------



## jkeegan

jking said:


> All good logic, and I agree that Ethan was conceived on the island. But for the record I'm pretty sure Horace was his father. Ethan wasn't born until 3 years after the picnic incident.


Paul died, Amy was alone and pregnant (James&co saved her), and 3 years later she was with Horace, who moved in and made his move after Paul died. Paul was Ethan's biological father (I'm 99% sure on this)


----------



## danterner

jlb said:


> Listened to Jorge's podcast today. He had an interesting story regarding the fight scene between Flocke and Jack [....] off-cam opportunity for Terry Oquinn to swap the real knife for the collapsble knife.
> 
> Only when they went for the first take, TO forgot to swap. And the vest MF wore was the only padded vest they had which had kevlar in it. Jorge said that as TO is "stabbing" MF, he went so white/pale from fear. I guess things went exactly as they had to for MF not to get stabbed for real.......


Wow - close call! Reminds me a lot of what happened on the set of Dexter a few seasons back. There's a scene where one of the characters (I won't spoil which one, in case anyone here is catching up on the show or wants to do so in the future) stabs another in the chest. The stunt double for the victim is gagged and wrapped in saran wrap, laid out on a table. There's a tiny bit of hard plastic, about the size of a post-it note, over his heart. In the rehearsals for the scene, the actor missed the plastic guard on 8 out of 10 takes. Since it was a collapsible blade, no harm no foul. On the actual take, the actor accidentally grabbed a real knife rather than the collapsible one. The stunt double victim saw what was happening but was bound and gagged and so couldn't communicate his distress. Fortunately, the actor hit the mark and the knife was deflected by the small square plastic guard.


----------



## aindik

Jorge Garcia also said in his podcast that the scene with Jack and Christian wasn't in anyone else's script other than those two, and the other actors were not allowed to watch it while they were filming it.


----------



## jking

jkeegan said:


> Paul died, Amy was alone and pregnant (James&co saved her), and 3 years later she was with Horace, who moved in and made his move after Paul died. Paul was Ethan's biological father (I'm 99% sure on this)


Go watch it again. Juliet delivered the baby, 3 years later. James grabbed her out of the motor pool, where she'd been working all that time, to deliver Ethan. Then he had a talk with Horace at his house after he sobered up (from blowing up the trees) and told him, among other things, that "he was a Daddy."


----------



## Rinkdog

Turtleboy said:


> Michael wasn't there because he was stuck on the island for being a d-bag, and Walt was a kid and they really weren't friends with him, so he wasn't part of their afterlife.


No, Michael already moved on. He was given permission from Christian who could not have been the smoke monster in this instance because the motives don't make sense. Either that or this is more make it up as you go b.s. that didn't jive with the ending.


----------



## wprager

Squeak said:


> Finally got around to watching the end last night.
> 
> I remember someone posted this spoiler from a couple of episodes ago -- it was a call sheet from this finale:
> 
> http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2010/04/lostcall1.jpg
> 
> Interesting that they call the place with the water where Jack is "Hell".


I posted this a little while back (spoilerized). I think they call it "Hell" because of the red light that was coming out of the hole. My theory is that there was a longer description in the script which likened the red light to what one could imagine the brimstone fires of hell to be like, then it was shortened to "Jack in hell" on the call sheet.

Or not.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Sir_winealot said:


> We began watching the (recorded) finale at 8:45pm, and ff'd through every set of commercials. We finished watching at 10:38pm....37 minutes ahead of the 2 1/2 hour total length, hence my 'commercial approximation time.'
> 
> My kids normally hit the bed at 10:30, so I kept a close eye on the clock.


Ah, not a very scientific method of measurement. Based on the fact (as others have posted) that the finale was about 105.5 minutes, rather than the 113 you estimated, I'm guessing you must have watched a couple of commercials or paused to discuss something for a total of about seven minutes during your viewing.


aindik said:


> Jorge Garcia also said in his podcast that the scene with Jack and Christian wasn't in anyone else's script other than those two, and the other actors were not allowed to watch it while they were filming it.


Yeah, I had heard that there was a secret scene that none of the other actors got in their script so they didn't know what it was. Glad to hear confirmation that it was the Jack/Christian church scene. I had wondered if it was the Jack dying in the jungle scene.


Rinkdog said:


> No, Michael already moved on. He was given permission from Christian who could not have been the smoke monster in this instance because the motives don't make sense. Either that or this is more make it up as you go b.s. that didn't jive with the ending.


Something tells me you missed a scene from earlier in the season when Michael appears to Hurley and tells him that his spirit is stuck on the Island indefinitely.


----------



## mostman

DevdogAZ said:


> Something tells me you missed a scene from earlier in the season when Michael appears to Hurley and tells him that his spirit is stuck on the Island indefinitely.


And the JK recap show where the actor who plays Michael (forget his name), specifically said the same.


----------



## Waldorf

Turtleboy said:


> Ok, ok, I got it.
> 
> 1) They all died in the initial crash
> 2) The Island sank to the bottom of the ocean before the crash took place
> 3) Even though they all died in the crash on an island that was at the bottom of the sea, the plane they showed at the very end was the Ajira plane, which also crashed, even though there was no one to fly it or be on it.
> 4) Sun didn't have sex with Jae
> 5) Hurley said Gaunt.


After reading some of the incredulous posts in the first few pages of this thread, I thought they had REALLY pulled one over on us and aired different "final" episodes in different time zones or something. 

Oh well, I enjoyed it from a character/emotional standpoint. The "man of science" in me was left wanting more, but that's the way I knew it would be. I was just hoping for a bit more backstory on the Taweret statue, the Temple, all the hieroglyphics, and the pre-MiB smoke monster, the "mechanics" of the island, etc. I guess I can rest knowing "it's all happened before and it will happen again", the island is magic, and leave it at that.

Good run, guys. Enjoyed this finale more than the Alias one.


----------



## Bananfish

I have to kind of laugh at some of the discussion here.

The back and forth of people searching for answers to mysteries and how everything fits together is, well, to be honest, kind of pointless. Because THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.

It's not that there are answers and Cuse/Lindelof are simply not revealing what they are for dramatic effect. THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.

Cuse and Lindelof put together a show that has fantastic moments and fantastic episodes, and even fantastic seasons. But with the final episode putting the final touches on the series, it's now obvious that what they were doing was formulating Lost so as to achieve nothing more than fantastic moments and fantastic episodes and fantastic seasons. They couldn't have cared less about how everything fit together, other than how it enabled them to achieve fantastic moments, episodes and seasons along the way. If they could use something that happened previously to create an interesting and dramatic new situation, they used it. If not, then they just discarded it and moved on. Consequently, there are lots of threads running through the series that simply don't tie in to an overall "solution." Some things just don't, and won't ever, fit in. Simply put, THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.

For some viewers, that detracts from the series overall. It makes them feel that all those years of trying to coherently put all the pieces of Lost together in a cohesive fashion were, if not wasted, at least like spinning their wheels in a mudpuddle. It's like if the New York Times put in a really challenging and fun Sunday crossword, and it turned out that, well, there was no actual solution - some clues were diversions, simply put in because they were interesting clues. Solvers would feel betrayed, having a sense that they had been cheated from that crowning moment when they put the puzzle down, completely filled in, and sit back with a smile of satisfaction and a sense of achievement.

On the other hand, other viewers don't care about the fact that there's no overall solution - they're quite satisfied that the show has come to a resolution. They have just loved reveling in the individual clues and the answers to some clues, enjoying the experience along the way, even the interesting clues for which THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.

So, Losties, I'm not going to tell you to stop trying to figure things out. Because I know you won't - it's why you fell in love with the series in the first place. But, just be forewarned, you won't find the ultimate solution, because ultimately THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.


----------



## vman

jkeegan said:


> He probably added that rule after MiB tried to kill him via Richard.


well obviously, but what is interesting is that he could keep adding rules to stop MIB even after a thousand years - guess it's nice to be the one running the game! I guess he was just tired at the end and didn't want to add any more rules at the end to block MIB's Ben loophole.


----------



## astrohip

Bananfish said:


> I have to kind of laugh at some of the discussion here.<snip>


Including yours? :down:

-1


----------



## vman

Bananfish said:


> Cuse and Lindelof put together a show that has fantastic moments and fantastic episodes, and even fantastic seasons. But with the final episode putting the final touches on the series, it's now obvious that what they were doing was formulating Lost so as to achieve nothing more than fantastic moments and fantastic episodes and fantastic seasons. They couldn't have cared less about how everything fit together, other than how it enabled them to achieve fantastic moments, episodes and seasons along the way. If they could use something that happened previously to create an interesting and dramatic new situation, they used it. If not, then they just discarded it and moved on. Consequently, there are lots of threads running through the series that simply don't tie in to an overall "solution." Some things just don't, and won't ever, fit in. Simply put, THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.


I kind of agree with this - except I would limit it to just fantastic moments and fantastic episodes - The seasons were just loose structures they changed from year to year and often did not have enough internal consistency to be fantastic. I think they really fell prey too much to their desire to do "wouldn't it be cool if..." things. Yes, those things were very cool individually, but they often did not tie together with everything else all that well...


----------



## astrohip

vman said:


> well obviously, but what is interesting is that he could keep adding rules to stop MIB even after a thousand years - guess it's nice to be the one running the game! I guess he was just tired at the end and didn't want to add any more rules at the end to block MIB's Ben loophole.


I'm probably mis-remembering, but isn't the vast majority of this "rules" discussion conjecture? Other than a very few stated rules ("you two can't kill each other"), aren't we just filling in the blanks based on what we see, and not what we know? Was it ever explicitly stated, for example, "only a leader can kill Jacob"? Or are we making that rule to fit the circumstances?

If I've forgotten scenes where these rules were laid out, my bad. Otherwise, we're spending a huge amount of time creating and debating rules that have very little effect in the long run.


----------



## astrohip

Perhaps I should have elaborated on why I didn't agree with your post:



Bananfish said:


> Cuse and Lindelof put together a show that has fantastic moments and fantastic episodes, and even fantastic seasons. But with the final episode putting the final touches on the series, it's now obvious that what they were doing was formulating Lost so as to achieve nothing more than fantastic moments and fantastic episodes and fantastic seasons.* They couldn't have cared less about how everything fit together*, other than how it enabled them to achieve fantastic moments, episodes and seasons along the way. If they could use something that happened previously to create an interesting and dramatic new situation, they used it. If not, then they just discarded it and moved on. Consequently, there are lots of threads running through the series that simply don't tie in to an overall "solution." Some things just don't, and won't ever, fit in. Simply put, THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.


This is the heart of your post, and I disagree. I think they cared very much how things fit together. Of course they made changes as the seasons progressed. They're writers. But their destination never changed, and they cared very much about "fit".


----------



## vman

DevdogAZ said:


> Yeah, I had heard that there was a secret scene that none of the other actors got in their script so they didn't know what it was. Glad to hear confirmation that it was the Jack/Christian church scene. I had wondered if it was the Jack dying in the jungle scene.


That is just amazing - I wonder when the other cast learned what the flash-sideways were? Were they ever told?


----------



## danterner

vman said:


> That is just amazing - I wonder when the other cast learned what the flash-sideways were? Were they ever told?


The Jimmy Kimmel Aloha to Lost special was immediately preceded by an airing of the finale, shown to the audience. The cast was backstage watching. When Matthew Fox came out as the first guest, he commented that that was the first time he had seen the final scenes. Presumably it was the first time for the rest of the cast as well?


----------



## Waldorf

vman said:


> That is just amazing - I wonder when the other cast learned what the flash-sideways were? Were they ever told?


It seemed to me they learned backstage at the Kimmel show for the reunion show. Many of them were a bit teary-eyed.


----------



## vman

astrohip said:


> I'm probably mis-remembering, but isn't the vast majority of this "rules" discussion conjecture? Other than a very few stated rules ("you two can't kill each other"), aren't we just filling in the blanks based on what we see, and not what we know? Was it ever explicitly stated, for example, "only a leader can kill Jacob"? Or are we making that rule to fit the circumstances?
> 
> If I've forgotten scenes where these rules were laid out, my bad. Otherwise, we're spending a huge amount of time creating and debating rules that have very little effect in the long run.


You are right the rules were never specifically laid out and this is all conjecture. Here is the scene I think lays out the rule from the season 5 finale (and Fake Locke's comment to Richard is pretty funny in retrospect!):

LOCKE: All right, Ben, let's go.

RICHARD: W--what are you doing?

BEN: John wants me to join him.

RICHARD: You can't bring him in.

LOCKE: Why not?

RICHARD: Because only our leader can request an audience with Jacob, and there can only be one leader on the Island at a time, John.

LOCKE: I'm beginning to think you just make these rules up as you go along, Richard. Ben is coming in with me, and if that's a problem, I'm sure Jacob and I can work it out.​


----------



## hapdrastic

wprager said:


> On CTV (Canada) we got "Lost" then the Bad Robot clip, and then that was it. The credits rolled while they had some promos for shows coming up. Never saw the wreckage.


I also didn't see the credits, our ABC affiliate immediately cut from Jack's eye closing to a "breaking news" alert about a (really mild) earthquake. I had no idea what you guys were talking about until I re-watched on Hulu.


----------



## vman

danterner said:


> The Jimmy Kimmel Aloha to Lost special was immediately preceded by an airing of the finale, shown to the audience. The cast was backstage watching. When Matthew Fox came out as the first guest, he commented that that was the first time he had seen the final scenes. Presumably it was the first time for the rest of the cast as well?


Well, not seeing the scene and not knowing the entire resolution of the story are two different things (Fox may not have seen the scene but he clearly knew how it ended!). But if the others really did not know until then (a month after wrap), that is amazing.


----------



## Anubys

vman said:


> You are right the rules were never specifically laid out and this is all conjecture. Here is the scene I think lays out the rule from the season 5 finale (and Fake Locke's comment to Richard is pretty funny in retrospect!):
> 
> LOCKE: All right, Ben, let's go.
> 
> RICHARD: W--what are you doing?
> 
> BEN: John wants me to join him.
> 
> RICHARD: You can't bring him in.
> 
> LOCKE: Why not?
> 
> RICHARD: Because only our leader can request an audience with Jacob, and there can only be one leader on the Island at a time, John.
> 
> LOCKE: I'm beginning to think you just make these rules up as you go along, Richard. Ben is coming in with me, and if that's a problem, I'm sure Jacob and I can work it out.​


one could make an argument that the rule was followed since FLocke was not a real person...so Flocke used that ambiguity to cast doubt about Jacob in Richard's mind...


----------



## jkeegan

astrohip said:


> Perhaps I should have elaborated on why I didn't agree with your post:
> 
> This is the heart of your post, and I disagree. I think they cared very much how things fit together. Of course they made changes as the seasons progressed. They're writers. But their destination never changed, and they cared very much about "fit".


:up:

Sorry bananafish, simply put - you're wrong.


----------



## jkeegan

vman said:


> You are right the rules were never specifically laid out and this is all conjecture. Here is the scene I think lays out the rule from the season 5 finale (and Fake Locke's comment to Richard is pretty funny in retrospect!):
> 
> LOCKE: All right, Ben, let's go.
> 
> RICHARD: W--what are you doing?
> 
> BEN: John wants me to join him.
> 
> RICHARD: You can't bring him in.
> 
> LOCKE: Why not?
> 
> RICHARD: Because only our leader can request an audience with Jacob, and there can only be one leader on the Island at a time, John.
> 
> LOCKE: I'm beginning to think you just make these rules up as you go along, Richard. Ben is coming in with me, and if that's a problem, I'm sure Jacob and I can work it out.​


That rule was laid out far earlier (well, island-chronology wise.. I think you might be right episode-wise). Jacob tells that rule to Richard on the beach.. Umm, maybe I'm misremembering actually.. On the beach Jacob tells Richard that no one goes in the statue that wasn't summoned.. yeah, that's it. Sorry.


----------



## jkeegan

hapdrastic said:


> I also didn't see the credits, our ABC affiliate immediately cut from Jack's eye closing to a "breaking news" alert about a (really mild) earthquake. I had no idea what you guys were talking about until I re-watched on Hulu.


Mild? It wasn't the greatest earthquake ever known?


----------



## jkeegan

Anubys said:


> one could make an argument that the rule was followed since FLocke was not a real person...so Flocke used that ambiguity to cast doubt about Jacob in Richard's mind...


Yeah but Richard certainly thought he was a real person at that point (Locke in fact, not MiB), otherwise he certainly wouldn't have let him in!


----------



## sushikitten

One thing I think a lot of people couldn't wrap their heads around (as it wasn't specifically ever answered) was what would happen if/when MIB got off the island. How would the world end? What did they mean?

This bit from from the Lost finale recap at EW made sense to me - although who knows if it's the case...



> Let's pause and do some math and come to a conclusion about a mystery/question that was not explicitly spelled out in the finale. We've been told for many episodes that if the Monster left The Island, the castaways and their loved ones would cease to exist. I took this to mean that if Fake Locke got away, reality would go POOF! Instead, this is how I add it up:
> 
> 1. In the Lost world, people are an inextricable blend of matter and spirit.
> 2. Fake Locke was all spirit  an unnatural state of being. But it made him invulnerable, because spirit is indestructible.
> 3. To kill Fake Locke, you had to either restore him to his natural state of matter and spirit... or convert him from all spirit to all matter, which is to say, a completely mechanical animal, and thus killable.
> 4. The rub is that to the procedure renders everyone into mechanical animals, which is to say, devoid of a soul.
> 5.Without the soul, we cannot pass into the next life or into the afterlife without our community of redemption partners  the people we love.
> 6. Fake Locke wanted to leave The Island.
> 7. Fake Locke was bonded to The Island by Island magic.
> 8. The same procedure required to break that spell (i.e., destroying The Island) is the same procedure that would convert Fake Locke and everyone into soulless zombies incapable of having a happily ever after with our loved ones (i.e., your community of redemption partners) because we need our souls to move into the afterlife.
> 9. Hence: Fake Locke leaving The Island = Annihilation (when you die) for you and everyone you love.
> 
> This makes total sense, yes?


----------



## BitbyBlit

They come, they fight, they destroy, and they corrupt. But they weren't the only flawed beings. 

Mother Protector was lonely. So lonely that she was willing to kill to have children to raise as her own. Two, she was glad to have, because that meant they would never be alone like her.

But for all her wanting of them to have each other, Mother Protector didn't want them to have anyone else, nor did she want them to leave for fear of being alone again herself. And thus, while they were not completely alone, Jacob and MIB were still raised in a lonely life.

But then Mother Protector's worst fear began to come to fruition; MIB wanted to leave. He was still on the island, however, and she knew Jacob could still sneak off and hang out with him, so that left her some comfort. But when MIB found a way to leave, that meant that Jacob, like her, would be alone when he became Protector.

In order to stop her worst fear from being realized, she destroyed the village, and buried MIB's only means of escape. In a rage from being denied what he most wanted, MIB killed Mother Protector. And Jacob, in anger, responded by doing the one thing Mother Protector warned him never to do; he threw MIB into the Cave of Light.

The Cave of Light was the source of life. Not life in just the sense of being alive, but rather life as the cycle of birth and death. This cave wasn't just a metaphysical place, however. The Dharma Initiative, Miles, and Desmond were all evidence that this life force had a very real interaction with the world.

The Cave of Light kept the balance of Life and Anti-Life. From nothingness (at least from the perspective of the physical world), Life and Anti-Life split apart. Anti-Life formed below the plug, while Life was released into the world to become a part of human beings (and other living things).

When people died, their Life would be released, and return to the island to eventually combine back with Anti-Life, and disappear from the physical world. Part of Life being grounded in a physical body was also being grounded in space-time. But when people's Life left their bodies, they were no longer grounded. They needed something else to ground their existences: their Constants. The whispers on the island were the result of the Life of those who had not yet been grounded interacting with the physical world. It was not necessarily an intentional interaction, but could have been more of just a side effect.

Although Life for the most part remained hidden from the physical world, there were still some connections. At the source where it was the most focused, the Dharma Initiative was able to harness it to perform experiments that involved warping space and time. Miles was able to sense the "footprints" left behind when Life left people's bodies, and was thus able to "talk" to an echo of who the person was. And Desmond had his Life dislodged before he died.

But the most direct interaction we saw of Life with the physical world was Smokey, who was created when Jacob threw MIB into the Cave of Light. Normally Life is grounded before going into the cave to interact with Anti-Life, disappearing from our world. But when Jacob threw MIB into the cave, not only was he still alive, but not at peace.

New Life when it leaves the cave is like a collection of stem cells. It goes into a new body, and forms itself based on the person's experiences. A person's body is like a cocoon, protecting and nurturing the Life until it is ready to move on. But when MIB was thrown into the cave, he corrupted much of the new Life that was being released, turning it into a new pure-Life being full of anger and desire to leave the island.

This pure-Life being was not completely immortal, however. Although it could not be killed by normal means, its Life slowly made its way back to the cave to interact with the Anti-Life, and disappear. Thus, to replenish its "cells", it attacked others, and absorbed their Life. If released into the world, it had the potential to corrupt all Life.

So now Jacob had to not only protect the Cave of Light, but also make sure that Smokey could never leave. This was easy as long as he was alive, but this left only one natural conclusion: Smokey would try to find a way to kill him. Jacob finally realized this with Richard, and decided that he needed to find a replacement.

But although Jacob was one step ahead of his mother in wanting to give his replacement free will, he picked people whom he could relate to, those who were loners like him. He started with Richard, who was a very lonely person, having no more connections in life, and began to build a group of followers to help him achieve his goal. Unfortunately, however, not only did he not pick the best groups of people to work together, he made matters even worse by nurturing them the only way he knew how, by ordering them around and expecting unquestioning obedience in the same manner as his mother had raised him.

They come, they fight, they destroy, and they corrupt. But it only ends once.

Oceanic Flight 815 crashed on the island, bringing Jacob's latest group of candidates. They, like Jacob, were loners who preferred a minimum of working and communicating with each other. 

Perhaps it was the extra weirdness they had to deal with in being used as part of Smokey's plan to kill Jacob. Perhaps it was how Jacob had the Others treat them. Perhaps it was the makeup of this particular group. Most likely it was some combination of all three. But these candidates, unlike previous ones, were able to get past their isolation, and form bonds with one other. Even better, they also established bonds with others on the island, including those who had treated them poorly.

One of the outsiders they formed a bond with was a scientist who had figured out how to interact with Life using a particular electromagnetic field. In his experiments, Daniel Faraday had been able to dislodge the Life from a rat's body. It wasn't completely disconnected, however. It was still attached to the body in the same way the Frozen Donkey Wheel was attached to the cave wall. But like the Frozen Donkey Wheel while the island was time-hopping, the Life was no longer anchored in space-time, moving forward in a steady motion. It moved back and forth erratically in space-time until eventually it did break away from the body, and the rat died.

The rat's death might have prevented Daniel from deciding to experiment on humans except that the person who had given him the final settings to be able to dislodge Life from a body was himself dislodged from his. Desmond Hume had come to Daniel looking for help to return to normal. As with Life after death, Desmond needed to find his Constant in order to anchor himself. And with that, Desmond became the first (and perhaps only) person to have had his Life dislodged and re-attached to his body.

But that wasn't the only thing special about Desmond. Desmond had sat inside the Dharma Swan station for 3 years helping to push a button every 108 minutes. Why did he need to push the button? Because of The Incident.

The detonation of the hydrogen bomb core had released intense electromagnetic radiation that had severely affected the flow of Life on the island. New Life could no longer naturally be released, and so the Swan station was designed to release it mechanically. One more fallout of The Incident was that new Life could no longer properly anchor itself to bodies, causing fertility and pregnancy problems. But this was limited to the island, and as long as Life could continue to be released to the rest of the world, life could go on.

Now, the Swan station could have been designed to automatically release Life, but it also served one other purpose. When the numbers were finally not entered, and the electromagnetism began to build up, Desmond turned a key to activate a failsafe. The thing is, however, Desmond wasn't really activating a failsafe; he was the failsafe. All that time pushing the button had tuned his body to be able to filter out the radiation that had damaged the island. When he turned the key, all of that radiation was channeled through him, and the flow of Life on the island was restored.

But that was only the first step in saving the island. Smokey was still alive, and intent on killing Jacob, with the Losties caught in the middle. And although they spent a good portion of their time trying to figure out who the "good guys" were, the Losties began to realize things were not that black and white. Even the "ultimate battle of good and evil" between Jacob and Smokey was really a fight between two flawed beings struggling with life like everyone else.

Similar to the struggle between good and evil was the struggle between faith and science. And although the Losties started out fighting about which side was right, The Incident simultaneously demonstrated the failings of both.

Faith also failed Desmond in his belief in what would happen after he pulled the plug. Because of his special nature, his Life not only could jump around in space-time, but outside of it. The dose of electromagnetic radiation that Widmore gave him allowed him to get a brief glimpse of his Life after death (while simultaneously giving his post-death Life a glimpse of his living existence). Alive Desmond saw what we all saw, a physical world. He knew that he needed to pull the plug in the cave, but concluded incorrectly that pulling the plug would replace the current world with that one.

In truth what Desmond saw was merely a limited translation to something that his time-bound, living self could perceive. Think of an Internet forum. Users have their own browsers in which they view the content, but they are all still connected. Now, imagine there was a blind person who didn't speak English. That person would need someone to describe to him in a language he could understand what was going on in the forum. That description would only be an approximation, particularly when talking about videos and images that people posted.

What we saw was what Alive Desmond saw, a manifestation of the Life of many of the Losties coming to terms with their existences and making connections after their deaths. It wasn't something that was literally happening (even in a virtual sense), but rather something that our own time-bound, living selves could understand.

It was these connections to each other that the Losties finally understood to be important. When Desmond pulled the plug, he released all of the Anti-Life that was below. The plug regulated the mixing of Life and Anti-Life, but with it removed, Anti-Life would have eventually consumed all Life in the world. It had one good side effect, however. It interacted with the strongest concentration of Life first, draining Smokey until he had no more Life than a human being. This allowed Smokey to be killed. After that, Jack put the plug back in, allowing the regulation of Life and Anti-Life to be restored. So even though Desmond's faith in what would happen failed, because Jack was there to pick him up, his faith in what he needed to do worked out in the end.

When Mother Protector and Jacob offered the cups of water to their successors, they were offers from leaders to followers. But when Jack offered the bottle to Hurley, it was an offer between friends. When Hurley offered Ben the job of #2, it was an offer of grace after everything Ben had done, including being indirectly responsible for Libby's death. 

Ultimately what the Losties discovered was that life, death, good, evil, faith, and science were secondary to their relationships with one another. Although they died apart, because they lived together, they did not die alone. The only things real in the sideways world were their connections to each other and their acceptance of themselves. And that is what needed to be found.


----------



## Bananfish

astrohip said:


> This is the heart of your post, and I disagree. I think they cared very much how things fit together. Of course they made changes as the seasons progressed. They're writers. But their destination never changed, and they cared very much about "fit".


I think they cared about "fit" only to the extent that it allowed them to keep telling interesting stories. Of course to tell interesting stories you have to care to some extent about fit. If you don't, the audience will sense that things don't make sense - you can cross the line from interesting to just weird or scattershot.

Ultimately this show was about the journey. Their ultimate destination had little to do with the journey - the final denouement had almost nothing to do with anything other than the final season. You're not going to go back and watch an episode from season 2 or 4 and say "eureka! now that I've seen the final episode, I totally get why character X did Y now!"

That doesn't mean it was bad or not worthwhile. It just means the show was about the journey, and not so much the destination. If you're a journey-lover, you love the show and the finale. If you're a destination-lover, not so much.

I feel similarly about Lost as I do about Twin Peaks. I loved Twin Peaks at first, and then sometime in the second season, I realized there was no getting to the bottom of what was going on because David Lynch himself didn't know. A change in a character's traits, or discovering something new in the backstory of a character, is generally interesting dramatically because it involves a change in your perception of that character, leading to new insights. Lynch would teeter his characters from one trait to another trait and back to the first trait, then the second trait again, etc., making you wonder "what is really at the bottom of this character?" What I realized ultimately was that Lynch himself didn't know what was at the bottom of the character - he was so enamored with creating interesting dynamic dramatic situations, he would change a character's traits/motivation/personality at the drop of a hat to try to achieve that.


----------



## T-Wolves

In retrospect, I thought that it was pretty cool that all of the flash-sideways' characters "remembrances" were bathed in golden light. I didn't realize the significance of it until the "golden light cave" showed up in "Across the Sea."


----------



## Polcamilla

wprager said:


> But those four are, essentially, the main characters. Now I'm really curious


I'll PM you to avoid spoilers.


----------



## pjenkins

was the pergatory flash-sideways created by the bomb?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

pjenkins said:


> was the pergatory flash-sideways created by the bomb?


No, the bomb just caused/aggravated the Incident and threw the Losties back into the present. The purgatory flash-sideways was caused by, well, whatever runs the universe and decides what happens to us when we die. In that respect, the bomb was a red herring.


----------



## Waldorf

pjenkins said:


> was the pergatory flash-sideways created by the bomb?


My understanding is that the FS/Limbo/Purgatory was created by dead people. The bomb (you mean the one Juliet was banging on with the rock?) sent them from the 70's back to current-ish time.


----------



## pjenkins

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, the bomb just caused/aggravated the Incident and threw the Losties back into the present. The purgatory flash-sideways was caused by, well, whatever runs the universe and decides what happens to us when we die. In that respect, the bomb was a red herring.


so everyone goes through that and it was added as filler by the writers to make the island stuff seem more cool?


----------



## jkeegan

pjenkins said:


> was the pergatory flash-sideways created by the bomb?


Yup. The bomb was actually a pretty sad creature for most of its life, because it wasn't able to fulfill it's potential - to BE what the bomb was.. It wanted to explode. But people kept it from achieving that goal.

Later it was even buried underground in concrete, where its faith was tested and it almost let it's dream of one day brilliantly exploding die.

But then the nice people, especially that one with the black hair named Jack, came and rescued it from that cave, and promised to finally let it explode! Of course, it had to lower its expectations - the *entire* bomb couldn't go off.. but at least some of it would.

When it finally got its chance, they dropped it and... it fell in mud! No! It was so sad that it wanted to just lie there and fizzle out.

But the nice lady fell in afterwards, and hit it with a rock! The bomb went boom! Hooray!

And in its last seconds of life, the bomb's subconscious decided to reward that nice lady and the nice man and any of their friends by creating a pocket of real reality and making it such that their thoughts and consciousness would travel to that place without time, resolve any issues they had, then return to experience their death satisfied that they'd resolved the things in their lives.

That was the gift that the bomb gave those nice people. It made them an afterlife soul-gathering game-lobby.


----------



## Keith_R90210

Waldorf said:


> My understanding is that the FS/Limbo/Purgatory was created by dead people. The bomb (you mean the one Juliet was banging on with the rock?) sent them from the 70's back to current-ish time.


This is how I interpreted it as well though the opening to this season hinted at it being the other way around. As others have said though this was a red herring.

A lot of good thoughts and interpretations in this thread. I'm enjoying reading these since they really are helping my understanding of what I saw.

I plan on rewatching this weekend or maybe even tonight.


----------



## DevdogAZ

jkeegan said:


> Yeah but Richard certainly thought he was a real person at that point (Locke in fact, not MiB), otherwise he certainly wouldn't have let him in!


I don't think Richard would have had much choice in the matter, even if he had known.


jkeegan said:


> Yup. The bomb was actually a pretty sad creature for most of its life, because it wasn't able to fulfill it's potential - to BE what the bomb was.. It wanted to explode. But people kept it from achieving that goal.
> 
> Later it was even buried underground in concrete, where its faith was tested and it almost let it's dream of one day brilliantly exploding die.
> 
> But then the nice people, especially that one with the black hair named Jack, came and rescued it from that cave, and promised to finally let it explode! Of course, it had to lower its expectations - the *entire* bomb couldn't go off.. but at least some of it would.
> 
> When it finally got its chance, they dropped it and... it fell in mud! No! It was so sad that it wanted to just lie there and fizzle out.
> 
> But the nice lady fell in afterwards, and hit it with a rock! The bomb went boom! Hooray!
> 
> And in its last seconds of life, the bomb's subconscious decided to reward that nice lady and the nice man and any of their friends by creating a pocket of real reality and making it such that their thoughts and consciousness would travel to that place without time, resolve any issues they had, then return to experience their death satisfied that they'd resolved the things in their lives.
> 
> That was the gift that the bomb gave those nice people. It made them an afterlife soul-gathering game-lobby.


Obviously, there's some sarcasm there, but I can't tell how much. I think you're completely misleading pjenkins and unnecessarily creating more confusion if you're trying to tell him that the bomb created the purgatory/limbo state. That's not what happened at all.


----------



## Anubys

jkeegan said:


> Yeah but Richard certainly thought he was a real person at that point (Locke in fact, not MiB), otherwise he certainly wouldn't have let him in!


that's exactly what I mean...

the rule is valid: only one person can go in at a time. FLocke is not a real person. So he and Ben can go in.

Richard doesn't know that FLocke is not real, thus he now thinks that the rule is being broken without any consequences...if he doubts that rule, he would start to wonder what else did Jacob tell him that isn't true...

thus what I said, Flocke used the ambiguity to rattle Richard...and the rule can still be true!


----------



## jkeegan

pjenkins said:


> was the pergatory flash-sideways created by the bomb?





jkeegan said:


> Yup. The bomb was actually a pretty sad creature for most of its life, because it wasn't able to fulfill it's potential - to BE what the bomb was.. It wanted to explode. But people kept it from achieving that goal.
> 
> Later it was even buried underground in concrete, where its faith was tested and it almost let it's dream of one day brilliantly exploding die.
> 
> But then the nice people, especially that one with the black hair named Jack, came and rescued it from that cave, and promised to finally let it explode! Of course, it had to lower its expectations - the *entire* bomb couldn't go off.. but at least some of it would.
> 
> When it finally got its chance, they dropped it and... it fell in mud! No! It was so sad that it wanted to just lie there and fizzle out.
> 
> But the nice lady fell in afterwards, and hit it with a rock! The bomb went boom! Hooray!
> 
> And in its last seconds of life, the bomb's subconscious decided to reward that nice lady and the nice man and any of their friends by creating a pocket of real reality and making it such that their thoughts and consciousness would travel to that place without time, resolve any issues they had, then return to experience their death satisfied that they'd resolved the things in their lives.
> 
> That was the gift that the bomb gave those nice people. It made them an afterlife soul-gathering game-lobby.





DevdogAZ said:


> Obviously, there's some sarcasm there, but I can't tell how much. I think you're completely misleading pjenkins and unnecessarily creating more confusion if you're trying to tell him that the bomb created the purgatory/limbo state. That's not what happened at all.


Wow that's very dry.  Ok, I'll crack first.

Yep - DevdogAZ called me on it - I was actually kidding there. I didnt' actually believe that the bomb had thoughts, or the ability to care about people or whether it exploded. Good catch. I actually thought pjenkins was trolling humorously (after the 24 pages of 40-threads-per-page that is this thread, where people have repeatedly quoted Christian's line that Jack and his friends created "this place" so they could all meet up). I hadn't considered that it was a serious question.

For anyone reading that still needs an explanation (if I'm not on lots of ignore lists or something, because it feels like I and others need to keep repeating this stuff), the bomb always went off, the bomb was always part of the Incident, it didn't create anything (except most likely an environment inhospitable for the conception and birth of babies), the explosion of the bomb near the electromagnetism/light/etc flashed the Losties forward to 2007, at which point they saw the hatch had still been built, etc.

MiB kills Jacob, people walk around the island, Jack becomes the new leader, brings Locke/Desmond to the well, Desmond goes down and removes the cork, smokey loses his power (as does Jack), Jack kills him by kicking him off a cliff (after Kate shot him), Jack makes Hurley the new leader (same as him, not a replacement), Jack puts the cork back in, Jack summons water with his hand, the water makes the light come back on, Hurley and Ben talk about how Hurley can make different rules and make the universe work the way he wants, Jack crawls away from the cave to his series starting spot in the bamboo, looks up at the sky, (maybe travels to sideways here, maybe after his eye closes), closes his eye, and dies (and maybe travels to the sideways here before moving on, if he didn't earlier in this sentence).

Christian said the Losties (Jack and his friends) made the place they were in, so they could find each other before moving on. The sideways world was a place made somehow by them, where they could resolve issues, meet up with each other, and all get to die together at the same time (even though in reality they died at different times).

If you care about more detail, read the entire thread - there's been quite a bit of talk about it.

(nah.. it was the bomb, because the people were so nice)


----------



## jkeegan

Anubys said:


> that's exactly what I mean...
> 
> the rule is valid: only one person can go in at a time. FLocke is not a real person. So he and Ben can go in.
> 
> Richard doesn't know that FLocke is not real, thus he now thinks that the rule is being broken without any consequences...if he doubts that rule, he would start to wonder what else did Jacob tell him that isn't true...
> 
> thus what I said, Flocke used the ambiguity to rattle Richard...and the rule can still be true!


Ahh, I see the confusion. It depends on whether that "rule" was just a convention that Jacob made (look.. it's company policy, no appointments without an invitation, sorry.. write your congressman) or a full fledged let's-change-the-nature-of-the-universe-to-accomodate-this-rule rule (like the Jacob-can't-hurt-MiB-and-vice-versa rule seems to be).

I thought that was just a policy kind of rule that he told Richard (like boss's orders) to keep himself safe.. like Tony Soprano would have one of his henchmen check someone at the door before letting them inside to see him. So I thought that smokey's only job was to trick Richard into *breaking* the rule, by saying "look.. you're impressed by me, right? remember? I showed up in 1950.. time travel. I gave you that compass. I'm special - disappeared right before your eyes. and I'm the leader now. get out of my way" and essentially bullying his way in. (Richard had to even press a secret panel on the door to get inside..)


----------



## Polcamilla

Waldorf said:


> After reading some of the incredulous posts in the first few pages of this thread, I thought they had REALLY pulled one over on us and aired different "final" episodes in different time zones or something.


Somebody should craft an elaborate and intricate multi-season television show and then *TOTALLY* do this with the finale!


----------



## pjenkins

jkeegan said:


> Wow that's very dry.  Ok, I'll crack first.
> 
> Yep - DevdogAZ called me on it - I was actually kidding there. I didnt' actually believe that the bomb had thoughts, or the ability to care about people or whether it exploded. Good catch. I actually thought pjenkins was trolling humorously (after the 24 pages of 40-threads-per-page that is this thread, where people have repeatedly quoted Christian's line that Jack and his friends created "this place" so they could all meet up). I hadn't considered that it was a serious question.


yes, serious question, your answer was humorous though 

the entire always-existed sideways pergatory introduced at the last season makes the entire storyline even worse than before in my view, and i didn't think that was possible! thanks jkeegan!


----------



## Anubys

jkeegan said:


> Ahh, I see the confusion. It depends on whether that "rule" was just a convention that Jacob made (look.. it's company policy, ...


oh...I agree it was probably a "policy"...I was simply responding to the guy who pointed to this rule being broken as proof that Jacob had no powers (or something like that)...

so I gave him a scenario where the rule could still be A RULE and not have been broken...


----------



## MickeS

Has anyone here seen David Lynch's movie "Lost Highway"?
In it


Spoiler



the main character all of a sudden transforms into a completely different person.


 There's no explanation for how or why it happens, but I always took it at face value: it just happened. I know some people I had discussions about the movie couldn't accept that though; they needed explanations of HOW it happened, nevermind that it can't ever happen in real life. I thought of that movie today because those discussions remind me a lot of what has been discussed in this thread about the lack of explanations. I don't really care about the explanations, but many people do.


----------



## balboa dave

BitbyBlit said:


> They come, they fight, they destroy, and they corrupt. But they weren't the only flawed beings.
> 
> Mother Protector was lonely. So lonely that she was willing to kill to have children to raise as her own. Two, she was glad to have, because that meant they would never be alone like her.
> 
> But for all her wanting of them to have each other, Mother Protector didn't want them to have anyone else, nor did she want them to leave for fear of being alone again herself. And thus, while they were not completely alone, Jacob and MIB were still raised in a lonely life.
> 
> But then Mother Protector's worst fear began to come to fruition; MIB wanted to leave. He was still on the island, however, and she knew Jacob could still sneak off and hang out with him, so that left her some comfort. But when MIB found a way to leave, that meant that Jacob, like her, would be alone when he became Protector.
> 
> In order to stop her worst fear from being realized, she destroyed the village, and buried MIB's only means of escape. In a rage from being denied what he most wanted, MIB killed Mother Protector. And Jacob, in anger, responded by doing the one thing Mother Protector warned him never to do; he threw MIB into the Cave of Light.
> 
> The Cave of Light was the source of life. Not life in just the sense of being alive, but rather life as the cycle of birth and death. This cave wasn't just a metaphysical place, however. The Dharma Initiative, Miles, and Desmond were all evidence that this life force had a very real interaction with the world.
> 
> The Cave of Light kept the balance of Life and Anti-Life. From nothingness (at least from the perspective of the physical world), Life and Anti-Life split apart. Anti-Life formed below the plug, while Life was released into the world to become a part of human beings (and other living things).
> 
> When people died, their Life would be released, and return to the island to eventually combine back with Anti-Life, and disappear from the physical world. Part of Life being grounded in a physical body was also being grounded in space-time. But when people's Life left their bodies, they were no longer grounded. They needed something else to ground their existences: their Constants. The whispers on the island were the result of the Life of those who had not yet been grounded interacting with the physical world. It was not necessarily an intentional interaction, but could have been more of just a side effect.
> 
> Although Life for the most part remained hidden from the physical world, there were still some connections. At the source where it was the most focused, the Dharma Initiative was able to harness it to perform experiments that involved warping space and time. Miles was able to sense the "footprints" left behind when Life left people's bodies, and was thus able to "talk" to an echo of who the person was. And Desmond had his Life dislodged before he died.
> 
> But the most direct interaction we saw of Life with the physical world was Smokey, who was created when Jacob threw MIB into the Cave of Light. Normally Life is grounded before going into the cave to interact with Anti-Life, disappearing from our world. But when Jacob threw MIB into the cave, not only was he still alive, but not at peace.
> 
> New Life when it leaves the cave is like a collection of stem cells. It goes into a new body, and forms itself based on the person's experiences. A person's body is like a cocoon, protecting and nurturing the Life until it is ready to move on. But when MIB was thrown into the cave, he corrupted much of the new Life that was being released, turning it into a new pure-Life being full of anger and desire to leave the island.
> 
> This pure-Life being was not completely immortal, however. Although it could not be killed by normal means, its Life slowly made its way back to the cave to interact with the Anti-Life, and disappear. Thus, to replenish its "cells", it attacked others, and absorbed their Life. If released into the world, it had the potential to corrupt all Life.
> 
> So now Jacob had to not only protect the Cave of Light, but also make sure that Smokey could never leave. This was easy as long as he was alive, but this left only one natural conclusion: Smokey would try to find a way to kill him. Jacob finally realized this with Richard, and decided that he needed to find a replacement.
> 
> But although Jacob was one step ahead of his mother in wanting to give his replacement free will, he picked people whom he could relate to, those who were loners like him. He started with Richard, who was a very lonely person, having no more connections in life, and began to build a group of followers to help him achieve his goal. Unfortunately, however, not only did he not pick the best groups of people to work together, he made matters even worse by nurturing them the only way he knew how, by ordering them around and expecting unquestioning obedience in the same manner as his mother had raised him.
> 
> They come, they fight, they destroy, and they corrupt. But it only ends once.
> 
> Oceanic Flight 815 crashed on the island, bringing Jacob's latest group of candidates. They, like Jacob, were loners who preferred a minimum of working and communicating with each other.
> 
> Perhaps it was the extra weirdness they had to deal with in being used as part of Smokey's plan to kill Jacob. Perhaps it was how Jacob had the Others treat them. Perhaps it was the makeup of this particular group. Most likely it was some combination of all three. But these candidates, unlike previous ones, were able to get past their isolation, and form bonds with one other. Even better, they also established bonds with others on the island, including those who had treated them poorly.
> 
> One of the outsiders they formed a bond with was a scientist who had figured out how to interact with Life using a particular electromagnetic field. In his experiments, Daniel Faraday had been able to dislodge the Life from a rat's body. It wasn't completely disconnected, however. It was still attached to the body in the same way the Frozen Donkey Wheel was attached to the cave wall. But like the Frozen Donkey Wheel while the island was time-hopping, the Life was no longer anchored in space-time, moving forward in a steady motion. It moved back and forth erratically in space-time until eventually it did break away from the body, and the rat died.
> 
> The rat's death might have prevented Daniel from deciding to experiment on humans except that the person who had given him the final settings to be able to dislodge Life from a body was himself dislodged from his. Desmond Hume had come to Daniel looking for help to return to normal. As with Life after death, Desmond needed to find his Constant in order to anchor himself. And with that, Desmond became the first (and perhaps only) person to have had his Life dislodged and re-attached to his body.
> 
> But that wasn't the only thing special about Desmond. Desmond had sat inside the Dharma Swan station for 3 years helping to push a button every 108 minutes. Why did he need to push the button? Because of The Incident.
> 
> The detonation of the hydrogen bomb core had released intense electromagnetic radiation that had severely affected the flow of Life on the island. New Life could no longer naturally be released, and so the Swan station was designed to release it mechanically. One more fallout of The Incident was that new Life could no longer properly anchor itself to bodies, causing fertility and pregnancy problems. But this was limited to the island, and as long as Life could continue to be released to the rest of the world, life could go on.
> 
> Now, the Swan station could have been designed to automatically release Life, but it also served one other purpose. When the numbers were finally not entered, and the electromagnetism began to build up, Desmond turned a key to activate a failsafe. The thing is, however, Desmond wasn't really activating a failsafe; he was the failsafe. All that time pushing the button had tuned his body to be able to filter out the radiation that had damaged the island. When he turned the key, all of that radiation was channeled through him, and the flow of Life on the island was restored.
> 
> But that was only the first step in saving the island. Smokey was still alive, and intent on killing Jacob, with the Losties caught in the middle. And although they spent a good portion of their time trying to figure out who the "good guys" were, the Losties began to realize things were not that black and white. Even the "ultimate battle of good and evil" between Jacob and Smokey was really a fight between two flawed beings struggling with life like everyone else.
> 
> Similar to the struggle between good and evil was the struggle between faith and science. And although the Losties started out fighting about which side was right, The Incident simultaneously demonstrated the failings of both.
> 
> Faith also failed Desmond in his belief in what would happen after he pulled the plug. Because of his special nature, his Life not only could jump around in space-time, but outside of it. The dose of electromagnetic radiation that Widmore gave him allowed him to get a brief glimpse of his Life after death (while simultaneously giving his post-death Life a glimpse of his living existence). Alive Desmond saw what we all saw, a physical world. He knew that he needed to pull the plug in the cave, but concluded incorrectly that pulling the plug would replace the current world with that one.
> 
> In truth what Desmond saw was merely a limited translation to something that his time-bound, living self could perceive. Think of an Internet forum. Users have their own browsers in which they view the content, but they are all still connected. Now, imagine there was a blind person who didn't speak English. That person would need someone to describe to him in a language he could understand what was going on in the forum. That description would only be an approximation, particularly when talking about videos and images that people posted.
> 
> What we saw was what Alive Desmond saw, a manifestation of the Life of many of the Losties coming to terms with their existences and making connections after their deaths. It wasn't something that was literally happening (even in a virtual sense), but rather something that our own time-bound, living selves could understand.
> 
> It was these connections to each other that the Losties finally understood to be important. When Desmond pulled the plug, he released all of the Anti-Life that was below. The plug regulated the mixing of Life and Anti-Life, but with it removed, Anti-Life would have eventually consumed all Life in the world. It had one good side effect, however. It interacted with the strongest concentration of Life first, draining Smokey until he had no more Life than a human being. This allowed Smokey to be killed. After that, Jack put the plug back in, allowing the regulation of Life and Anti-Life to be restored. So even though Desmond's faith in what would happen failed, because Jack was there to pick him up, his faith in what he needed to do worked out in the end.
> 
> When Mother Protector and Jacob offered the cups of water to their successors, they were offers from leaders to followers. But when Jack offered the bottle to Hurley, it was an offer between friends. When Hurley offered Ben the job of #2, it was an offer of grace after everything Ben had done, including being indirectly responsible for Libby's death.
> 
> Ultimately what the Losties discovered was that life, death, good, evil, faith, and science were secondary to their relationships with one another. Although they died apart, because they lived together, they did not die alone. The only things real in the sideways world were their connections to each other and their acceptance of themselves. And that is what needed to be found.


I like it.


----------



## jschuur

I've ignored the last 20 pages of this thread, but I'm going to wrap up any further thoughts about Lost with Teddy Bear Locke:










You're welcome.


----------



## jkeegan

pjenkins said:


> yes, serious question, your answer was humorous though
> 
> the entire always-existed sideways pergatory introduced at the last season makes the entire storyline even worse than before in my view, and i didn't think that was possible! thanks jkeegan!


Yeah I still don't know that it always existed.. Christian said that Jack and his friends created it.. I'm still up on the air as to whether they created the whole thing, or just some part of it where they'd hook up, or whatever.

And by the way, you're welcome! Let me know if there's anything else I can ruin for you.


----------



## jkeegan

jschuur said:


> I've ignored the last 20 pages of this thread, but I'm going to wrap up any further thoughts about Lost with Teddy Bear Locke:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome.


Even though you already said you're welcome, I'll specifically say thank you, if just to see that image on the screen again in this reply.


----------



## jkeegan

Maybe the teddy bear we've been seeing was originally MiB's (made out of really really well woven cloth), and was named Rosebud.


----------



## Polcamilla

astrohip said:


> If I've forgotten scenes where these rules were laid out, my bad. Otherwise, we're spending a huge amount of time creating and debating rules that have very little effect in the long run.


That reminds me of a time a friend and I saw a 'Pétanque Field' labeled on a park map, and never having heard of 'Pétanque' we wandered over to see what it was. It turned out to be a big patch of dirt in the park and we were somewhat disappointed until two older men came along and started playing the game (they brought their own equipment).

My friend and I stood and watched them for about 15-20 minutes, speculating on the rules of the game based on what we observed. Eventually we introduced ourselves and asked them what the game was and how it was played. It turns out Pétanque is French Bocce with maybe 5 or so simple rules. From observation, we had well over two dozen insanely complicated rules for a very elaborate game that probably would've been nothing like what the men were playing in practice....and we learned that you can't deduce the rules of a game by watching a game unfold and working your way backwards.


----------



## jschuur

I like to think it's actually Teddy Bear Flocke, showing he has a fuzzy soft spot left.

Does anyone remember the context of this scene? What season? Nothing about Locke with it on Lostpedia.

PS: Dibs on Teddy Bear Locke (and or Flocke) as a band name


----------



## Polcamilla

sushikitten said:


> This bit from from the Lost finale recap at EW made sense to me - although who knows if it's the case...


I read that twice and it makes not the slightest bit of sense to me. Also, what is is based on? Where do we see everyone becoming soulless zombies? And---it says that if we become soulless zombies, we THEN need each other to enter the afterlife----um----HUH?!?


----------



## Anubys

Polcamilla said:


> That reminds me of a time a friend and I saw a 'Pétanque Field' labeled on a park map, and never having heard of 'Pétanque' we wandered over to see what it was. It turned out to be a big patch of dirt in the park and we were somewhat disappointed until two older men came along and started playing the game (they brought their own equipment).
> 
> My friend and I stood and watched them for about 15-20 minutes, speculating on the rules of the game based on what we observed. Eventually we introduced ourselves and asked them what the game was and how it was played. It turns out Pétanque is French Bocce with maybe 5 or so simple rules. From observation, we had well over two dozen insanely complicated rules for a very elaborate game that probably would've been nothing like what the men were playing in practice....and we learned that you can't deduce the rules of a game by watching a game unfold and working your way backwards.


that's what I went through trying to figure out baseball...the same throw is sometimes a ball and sometimes a strike...foul off? sometimes a strike and sometimes not...it was maddening!


----------



## Dnamertz

MickeS said:


> Has anyone here seen David Lynch's movie "Lost Highway"?
> In it
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> the main character all of a sudden transforms into a completely different person.
> 
> 
> There's no explanation for how or why it happens, but I always took it at face value: it just happened. I know some people I had discussions about the movie couldn't accept that though; they needed explanations of HOW it happened, nevermind that it can't ever happen in real life. I thought of that movie today because those discussions remind me a lot of what has been discussed in this thread about the lack of explanations. I don't really care about the explanations, but many people do.


Many people cared about explanations because that is the way the writers made the show...to keep us guessing and talking. It was presented in a way to keep us looking for answers, and they did a brilliant job at presenting it that way.


----------



## nyny523

Polcamilla said:


> I read that twice and it makes not the slightest bit of sense to me. Also, what is is based on? Where do we see everyone becoming soulless zombies? And---it says that if we become soulless zombies, we THEN need each other to enter the afterlife----um----HUH?!?


This is why I canceled my subscription to EW.

The writing is pretty awful...


----------



## DreadPirateRob

Polcamilla said:


> I'll PM you to avoid spoilers.


Me too please.


----------



## nyny523

OK, I have to share this...too good not to!!!


----------



## jkeegan

nyny523 said:


> OK, I have to share this...too good not to!!!


Sorry but that was seriously lame


----------



## mqpickles

My husband has kept up with Lost, but has slowly lost enthusiasm.

He got around to watching the finale. He said, "If I had known they were going to do that good a job, I would have paid closer attention the last couple seasons."


----------



## Polcamilla

DreadPirateRob said:


> Me too please.


Oh, fine!



Spoiler



I thought Rowling said that Neville married Hannah Abbott, but when I checked the epilogue it wasn't there. It may be one of the things she said in numerous interviews after Deathly Hallows, or I could have just gotten myself confused.


----------



## astrohip

Polcamilla said:


> That reminds me of a time a friend and I saw a 'Pétanque Field' labeled on a park map, and never having heard of 'Pétanque' we wandered over to see what it was. It turned out to be a big patch of dirt in the park and we were somewhat disappointed until two older men came along and started playing the game (they brought their own equipment).
> 
> My friend and I stood and watched them for about 15-20 minutes, speculating on the rules of the game based on what we observed. Eventually we introduced ourselves and asked them what the game was and how it was played. It turns out Pétanque is French Bocce with maybe 5 or so simple rules. From observation, we had well over two dozen insanely complicated rules for a very elaborate game that probably would've been nothing like what the men were playing in practice....and we learned that you can't deduce the rules of a game by watching a game unfold and working your way backwards.


Great story! And makes my point at the same time.:up:


----------



## uncdrew

Polcamilla said:


> ....and we learned that you can't deduce the rules of a game by watching a game unfold and working your way backwards.


Well maybe you can't.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

LOST Season 6 DVDs To Feature LOST Epilogue with Hurley & Ben
http://www.sl-lost.com/2010/05/26/lost-season-6-dvds-to-feature-lost-epilogue-with-hurley-ben/

I hope this isn't a smeek, I'm on my phone and a few posts behind, but found this exciting news. I was hoping this was something they filmed for th DVDs.


----------



## jkeegan

Fool Me Twice said:


> LOST Season 6 DVDs To Feature LOST Epilogue with Hurley & Ben
> http://www.sl-lost.com/2010/05/26/lost-season-6-dvds-to-feature-lost-epilogue-with-hurley-ben/
> 
> I hope this isn't a smeek, I'm on my phone and a few posts behind, but found this exciting news. I was hoping this was something they filmed for th DVDs.


I'd expect that to be pretty lightharted.

It'd be funny if they were in charge for like some insanely ridiculous run, like 25000 years, and they try to depict what people would look like etc.


----------



## Roadblock

jkeegan said:


> Sorry but that was seriously lame


Agreed



Fool Me Twice said:


> LOST Season 6 DVDs To Feature LOST Epilogue with Hurley & Ben
> http://www.sl-lost.com/2010/05/26/lost-season-6-dvds-to-feature-lost-epilogue-with-hurley-ben/
> 
> I hope this isn't a smeek, I'm on my phone and a few posts behind, but found this exciting news. I was hoping this was something they filmed for th DVDs.


Cool!


----------



## nyny523

jkeegan said:


> Sorry but that was seriously lame


Sorry, but that was seriously HILARIOUS!!

Everyone else I know who has seen it thought it was great!!!


----------



## wprager

nyny523 said:


> Sorry, but that was seriously HILARIOUS!!
> 
> Everyone else I know who has seen it thought it was great!!!


I think it was both lame and funny. Now, is that lame of me?

"I'm giving up a respectable career as a spinal surgeon to protect a light from a cloud. Seriously."

"Dude. I managed to get fatter, on a deserted island. Dude."


----------



## Roadblock

nyny523 said:


> Sorry, but that was seriously HILARIOUS!!
> 
> Everyone else I know who has seen it thought it was great!!!


I guess you haven't seen much good comedy. That was worse than the Cleveland song trying to get LeBron to stay.


----------



## Hunter Green

jkeegan said:


> But the nice lady fell in afterwards, and hit it with a rock! The bomb went boom! Hooray!


I think it's time for your nap now.


----------



## loubob57

nyny523 said:


> Sorry, but that was seriously HILARIOUS!!
> 
> Everyone else I know who has seen it thought it was great!!!


It made me laugh. Charlie - "You all everybody, except me, 'cause I'm dead".


----------



## danterner

Polcamilla said:


> That reminds me of a time a friend and I saw a 'Pétanque Field' labeled on a park map....and we learned that you can't deduce the rules of a game by watching a game unfold and working your way backwards.


I had forgotten all about it until just now, but back in college my friends and I used to play a game called "psychologist" that involved deducing rules. It was called psychologist because it seriously messed with your head. A group of people (it works best with 10 or so) sit around a circle. One person (the player) leaves the room while the remaining people make up a rule set. The rules can be anything, and change each game. Examples would be "when asked a question, answer as though you are the person sitting on your left," or "when asked a question, tell the truth if the current time is an even number. Lie if the current time is an odd number" etc. The more obscure the rules, the more fun the game. Beginner games would consist of just one rule. Harder games would have two or more. Once the rules had been decided upon, the player would be called back into the room and would have to guess the rules by asking questions to the players. Questions could be pretty much anything (except "what are the rules?").

PS. We were nerds.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

danterner said:


> PS. We were nerds.


Was that statement really necessary?


----------



## Alfer

nyny523 said:


> OK, I have to share this...too good not to!!!


Yeahh...I have to agree..that was pretty lame.


----------



## danterner

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Was that statement really necessary?


As necessary as a pocket protector.


----------



## Anubys

danterner said:


> I had forgotten all about it until just now, but back in college my friends and I used to play a game called "psychologist" that involved deducing rules. It was called psychologist because it seriously messed with your head. A group of people (it works best with 10 or so) sit around a circle. One person (the player) leaves the room while the remaining people make up a rule set. The rules can be anything, and change each game. Examples would be "when asked a question, answer as though you are the person sitting on your left," or "when asked a question, tell the truth if the current time is an even number. Lie if the current time is an odd number" etc. The more obscure the rules, the more fun the game. Beginner games would consist of just one rule. Harder games would have two or more. Once the rules had been decided upon, the player would be called back into the room and would have to guess the rules by asking questions to the players. Questions could be pretty much anything (except "what are the rules?").
> 
> PS. We were nerds.


a college game that involved no drinking and does not end up in some sort of sex 

wow...just wow


----------



## gchance

Fool Me Twice said:


> LOST Season 6 DVDs To Feature LOST Epilogue with Hurley & Ben
> http://www.sl-lost.com/2010/05/26/lost-season-6-dvds-to-feature-lost-epilogue-with-hurley-ben/
> 
> I hope this isn't a smeek, I'm on my phone and a few posts behind, but found this exciting news. I was hoping this was something they filmed for th DVDs.





jkeegan said:


> I'd expect that to be pretty lightharted.
> 
> It'd be funny if they were in charge for like some insanely ridiculous run, like 25000 years, and they try to depict what people would look like etc.


You know what, it does make sense. They said they'd have an additional 20 minutes of footage filmed specifically for the DVD set that would answer some questions. This likely would fit the bill, in the vein of the 80s SNL sketch with John Larroquette & Dana Carvey in heaven.



nyny523 said:


> Sorry, but that was seriously HILARIOUS!!
> 
> Everyone else I know who has seen it thought it was great!!!


Are they all women, who are also on Facebook, and enjoy sending pokes & random kitten gifts to each other, and also type random "tee hee" responses?



Anubys said:


> a college game that involved no drinking and does not end up in some sort of sex
> 
> wow...just wow


You should have ended your post with, "I'm not a nerd, BTW."

Our parties usually ended with writing C code while drunk.

Greg


----------



## pjenkins

how Lost should have ended.. lol (wonder if animated .gifs show up?)


----------



## jkeegan

gchance said:


> You know what, it does make sense. They said they'd have an additional 20 minutes of footage filmed specifically for the DVD set that would answer some questions. This likely would fit the bill, in the vein of the 80s SNL sketch with John Larroquette & Dana Carvey in heaven.


I LOVED that sketch! I quote it all the time!


----------



## jkeegan

jkeegan said:


> I LOVED that sketch! I quote it all the time!


...aaaand it looks like I've been misquoting it..






I thought the Bermuda part was one of the 243rd-ish answers (because he couldn't handle the 1st).


----------



## betts4

From one of my facebook friends --- I thought it was amusing in a sad way.



> Okay guys, here's the deal. We now know where the island is- the Gulf of Mexico. And we know what the smoke monster is now. I guess Jack failed. Smokey made it off the island. Starting in the Gulf, we are all doomed. Here's the live feed: http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream3&hpt=T1


----------



## nyny523

gchance said:


> Are they all women, who are also on Facebook, and enjoy sending pokes & random kitten gifts to each other, and also type random "tee hee" responses?
> 
> Greg


No.

But thanks for your gross generalizations and sexist attitude. They are greatly appreciated and give us some real insight into your character...


----------



## slydog75

BitbyBlit said:


> They come, they fight, they destroy, and they corrupt. But they weren't the only flawed beings...


Wow, that's impressive. Is this your own essay here? Top notch and IMO pretty close to dead on.


----------



## MickeS

pjenkins said:


> how Lost should have ended.. lol (wonder if animated .gifs show up?)


   Awesome.


----------



## Waldorf

pjenkins said:


> how Lost should have ended.. lol (wonder if animated .gifs show up?)


Credit to Jimmy Kimmel and his writers:






He really is/was a LOST nut.


----------



## betts4

Better than a snowglobe!!


----------



## ronsch

Anubys said:


> a college game that involved no drinking and does not end up in some sort of sex
> 
> wow...just wow





gchance said:


> Are they all women, who are also on Facebook, and enjoy sending pokes & random kitten gifts to each other, and also type random "tee hee" responses?
> 
> You should have ended your post with, "I'm not a nerd, BTW."
> 
> Our parties usually ended with writing C code while drunk.
> 
> Greg


ROFL...LMAO..


----------



## gchance

nyny523 said:


> No.
> 
> But thanks for your gross generalizations and sexist attitude. They are greatly appreciated and give us some real insight into your character...


I knew you'd appreciate it! I just didn't find it that funny. 



slydog75 said:


> Wow, that's impressive. Is this your own essay here? Top notch and IMO pretty close to dead on.





Waldorf said:


> Credit to Jimmy Kimmel and his writers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He really is/was a LOST nut.


Love it! Thanks, that was brilliant.

Greg


----------



## Keith_R90210

Waldorf said:


> Credit to Jimmy Kimmel and his writers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He really is/was a LOST nut.


LOL that was classic. Loved it! Reminds me of my dog.


----------



## aindik

Days later, I still find myself wondering why Jack had to plug the rock back in rather than having Desmond do it.


----------



## Waldorf

aindik said:


> Days later, I still find myself wondering why Jack had to plug the rock back in rather than having Desmond do it.


Desmond was pretty much unconscious. Jack carried him to the waterfall and tied the rope to him and replaced the rock himself.

If you remember, Hurley and Ben were fairly surprised when they pulled Desmond up. Not sure why they couldn't have lowered the rope again and pulled Jack out, but it seems the cave spit him out anyways.


----------



## aindik

Waldorf said:


> Desmond was pretty much unconscious. Jack carried him to the waterfall and tied the rope to him and replaced the rock himself.


Jack woke Desmond up and they had a conversation. Desmond said he would do it and Jack refused to let him. I'm wondering why.



Waldorf said:


> If you remember, Hurley and Ben were fairly surprised when they pulled Desmond up.


Because Jack lied to them and told them that he'd come back up when it was done.



Waldorf said:


> Not sure why they couldn't have lowered the rope again and pulled Jack out, but it seems the cave spit him out anyways.


And they left before that could happen, which also bothered me. Maybe they could have saved him, had they just hung around longer.

I'm also wondering why Jack didn't turn into black smoke when the light came back on. I thought the light didn't kill people who touched it, but, instead, did "something far worse."


----------



## Roadblock

aindik said:


> Days later, I still find myself wondering why Jack had to plug the rock back in rather than having Desmond do it.


Desmond would probably have been able to put it back in and survived, but it seemed like extreme agony for him to be in there with it on. Maybe he would never have made it out and been stuck in there.

Also, Jack was already dying.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

aindik said:


> I'm also wondering why Jack didn't turn into black smoke when the light came back on. I thought the light didn't kill people who touched it, but, instead, did "something far worse."


Maybe not to the Protector, though.


----------



## gchance

aindik said:


> Jack woke Desmond up and they had a conversation. Desmond said he would do it and Jack refused to let him. I'm wondering why.


Because as far as Jack was concerned, he had a destiny to fulfill.



> I'm also wondering why Jack didn't turn into black smoke when the light came back on. I thought the light didn't kill people who touched it, but, instead, did "something far worse."


Entirely speculation of course, but I think the evil was already released, merged with MiB, and once he was dead, so was the evil. The "something far worse" already escaped, and was already killed. It doesn't exist down there anymore.

Greg


----------



## nyny523

gchance said:


> I knew you'd appreciate it! I just didn't find it that funny.
> Greg


So say you don't find it funny. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Making sexist generalizations than insult an entire gender are unnecessary and certainly reflect the character of the person making them.

Those I did not appreciate.


----------



## gchance

nyny523 said:


> So say you don't find it funny. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
> 
> Making sexist generalizations than insult an entire gender are unnecessary and certainly reflect the character of the person making them.
> 
> Those I did not appreciate.


OK. My apologies for offending you. That wasn't my intent at all.

Greg


----------



## nyny523

gchance said:


> OK. My apologies for offending you. That wasn't my intent at all.
> 
> Greg


Thank you. Accepted.


----------



## JYoung

I'm disappointed that we didn't see the much rumored musical episode.


----------



## DevdogAZ

JYoung said:


> I'm disappointed that we didn't see the much rumored musical episode.


Joss Whedon was busy.


----------



## Dnamertz

Why did Richard get a gray hair?


----------



## gossamer88

He became mortal once his role of protecting the island was passed on.


----------



## astrohip

gchance said:


> Our parties usually ended with writing C code while drunk.


Isn't that how Windows got its start?


----------



## nyny523

Who will have post 1000???


----------



## nyny523

I guess it will be ME!!!


----------



## MickeS

1K Lost YAMM!


----------



## DreadPirateRob

gossamer88 said:


> He became mortal once his role of protecting the island was passed on.


Richard was never the Island protector. His immortality (or at least incredible longevity) was a gift from Jacob. So presumably once Jacob died, or maybe once the mantle was passed to Jack, that gift was revoked.


----------



## SusieK

Steveknj said:


> So the folks who didn't come, they were still alive? I thought one of the theories is they would not all come together until all of them died.
> 
> Not necessarily alive...they might be dead, but still resolving their issues, and therefore 'not ready' to go into the light. Also, if they were a minor character, like Ana Lucia, perhaps the main characters didn't have to 'wait' for them.
> 
> I did like the full circle of Jack's original quote to the main group that first night or so when they were stranded: "If we can't all live together, we'll die alone" (or something like that). And in the end they were all able to live together (on the island & in the sideways), and in the end they did not die alone (all went into the light together)...very poetic and appropriate.


----------



## Anubys

I went back and watched the finale again...

watching it for the first time, I was anxious to absorb it all...not to miss anything...looking for clues and hints...etc.

I never really sat back and enjoyed it...

now that I knew what was going on, the second time was much better than the first...a great finale is now a fantastic finale for me...

two minor things:
1. everyone remembered in a burst of memories. Jack remembered (by the coffin) in slow motion :up:
2. hated hated hated that Kate was not in the black dress inside the church (she changed into some grey slacks and blue/green blouse) :down:


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

MickeS said:


> 1K Lost YAMM!


Isn't it funny what those newbies get excited by?


----------



## cheesesteak

Anubys said:


> 2. hated hated hated that Kate was not in the black dress inside the church (she changed into some grey slacks and blue/green blouse) :down:


Kate's legs looked great in that dress and heels.


----------



## ronsch

Steveknj said:


> So the folks who didn't come, they were still alive? I thought one of the theories is they would not all come together until all of them died.
> 
> Not necessarily alive...they might be dead, but still resolving their issues, and therefore 'not ready' to go into the light. Also, if they were a minor character, like Ana Lucia, perhaps the main characters didn't have to 'wait' for them.


Since it seems to be implied that Hurley and Ben spent a ling time as the Island's protectors, it's pretty safe to assume that they were the last of the group to die.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

The adventures of Hurley and Ben. 










Also this one (can't figure out how to display it here):


----------



## drumorgan

Just want to point out that MIB becoming (not releasing) the smoke monster was confirmed in the finale. I know that the only source I had before was Wikipedia, and that was disputed as not necessarily canon.


----------



## drumorgan

Did we ever get a name for MIB?


----------



## BitbyBlit

slydog75 said:


> Wow, that's impressive. Is this your own essay here? Top notch and IMO pretty close to dead on.


Thanks!

Yeah, it's just my interpretation based on what I saw in Lost and read in these threads. These threads definitely took my understanding of Lost to a level beyond that which I could have achieved alone. And I don't think I would have even cared to analyze Lost as much as I did without them. So thanks to everyone who contributed! Even the most wild and off-track theories (such as Sun and Jae not having had sex ) still at the very least kept us thinking about Lost.

This has been the most rewarding television experience I've ever had. (Although I hope it's not all downhill from here.)

However, I do kind of agree with Rob in that part of me wishes they would have answered some of the more technical details. But at the same time, I can understand how that might have detracted from the emotional impact of the ending. In the same way that Star Trek doesn't go into all the mechanics during the show, but there is external material that explains things in more detail, I'm hoping we get some of that via the DVD extras and perhaps other mediums.

I know Damon and Carlton have said they were done with Lost after the finale, but they might have done stuff before like they did with the DVD extras, and they perhaps could be persuaded to contribute non-TV Lost material.

The funny thing is, I felt kind of like Desmond while watching the finale. Before going in, I had faith that they would answer a bunch of the detail questions that I had. Well, my faith in what would happen failed. But my faith in the writers paid off. The ending was far better than anything I imagined, and I'm glad they ended it the way they did.


----------



## mmilton80

drumorgan said:


> Did we ever get a name for MIB?


Hank.


----------



## BitbyBlit

aindik said:


> Days later, I still find myself wondering why Jack had to plug the rock back in rather than having Desmond do it.


Well, continuing with my theory of Life and Anti-Life, Life seemed to have a strong relationship with electromagnetism. Perhaps the plug itself wasn't the barrier between Life and Anti-Life, but caused Life and Anti-Life to interact in such a manner that they formed an electromagnetic field that served as a natural barrier between the two.

Desmond's immunity to strong electromagnetic fields allowed him to pull the plug, but once the plug was pulled, there was no more field. At that point, there was only Anti-Life being released, to which he was just as vulnerable as Jack.

As far as why there was no new Smokey, Jack was at peace when he was in the cave, so he wouldn't have corrupted any of the new Life. And there likely wasn't much, if any, new Life while he was down there anyway since he had just restored the flow.


----------



## JYoung

Fool Me Twice said:


> The adventures of Hurley and Ben.


I'm sure someone's writing Hurley/Ben stories.


----------



## Shakhari

drumorgan said:


> Did we ever get a name for MIB?


There's some rumors floating around that his name was originally supposed to have been Samuel, but the producers decided for whatever reason to not reveal it.


----------



## scooterboy

As some of you may remember, I have stayed out of the Lost threads for the past couple of seasons because I just couldn't stand all the smeeking.

But after watching the finale last night I thought I'd pop in here to see what some of the reactions were. I was dismayed to find that apparently I didn't understand the finale at all!

I came away from it thinking that they had all died in the initial plane crash and I was okay with that. Then I read what you guys think, and it just confuses me.

I'm going to pretend I didn't come in here, and stick with the ending I initially came away from the finale with. I like it better.


----------



## DevdogAZ

scooterboy said:


> As some of you may remember, I have stayed out of the Lost threads for the past couple of seasons because I just couldn't stand all the smeeking.
> 
> But after watching the finale last night I thought I'd pop in here to see what some of the reactions were. I was dismayed to find that apparently I didn't understand the finale at all!
> 
> I came away from it thinking that they had all died in the initial plane crash and I was okay with that. Then I read what you guys think, and it just confuses me.
> 
> I'm going to pretend I didn't come in here, and stick with the ending I initially came away from the finale with. I like it better.


Help me understand that. What, from the finale, gave you the sense that they had all died in the initial plane crash and that all the stuff on the Island was just dream/fake/afterlife?


----------



## scooterboy

DevdogAZ said:


> Help me understand that. What, from the finale, gave you the sense that they had all died in the initial plane crash and that all the stuff on the Island was just dream/fake/afterlife?


I guess the same thing that gave others the impression that the sideways timeline was purgatory. Specifically, that they all eventually realized that they needed to move on to the next stage. The only question is how far back from that point did they actually die?

The main thing I don't get is if the island life was real, and the sideways timeline was purgatory, then how did they each exist in both places at once? Conversely, if the sideways timeline *didn't* happen at the same time as the island life but after it, how did each of them die and get there?


----------



## Anubys

scooterboy said:


> I guess the same thing that gave others the impression that the sideways timeline was purgatory. Specifically, that they all eventually realized that they needed to move on to the next stage. The only question is how far back from that point did they actually die?
> 
> The main thing I don't get is if the island life was real, and the sideways timeline was purgatory, then how did they each exist in both places at once? Conversely, if the sideways timeline *didn't* happen at the same time as the island life but after it, how did each of them die and get there?


if you read this thread, then you know the answers to these questions...so I'm not sure what you're asking...

the island was real...the only thing that is not real is the sideways universe...that happens outside of time...so Kate could have died when she was 50...James when he was 100...Hugo when he was 25,000...but they can all meet in the sideways at the same time (after each's own death)...


----------



## slydog75

scooterboy said:


> As some of you may remember, I have stayed out of the Lost threads for the past couple of seasons because I just couldn't stand all the smeeking.
> 
> But after watching the finale last night I thought I'd pop in here to see what some of the reactions were. I was dismayed to find that apparently I didn't understand the finale at all!
> 
> I came away from it thinking that they had all died in the initial plane crash and I was okay with that. Then I read what you guys think, and it just confuses me.
> 
> I'm going to pretend I didn't come in here, and stick with the ending I initially came away from the finale with. I like it better.


I just don't see how anyone came away from that thinking they all died in the crash.


----------



## scooterboy

Anubys said:


> if you read this thread, then you know the answers to these questions...so I'm not sure what you're asking...


I did read the thread, but I still don't understand how it's so clear to everyone.

It seems very ambiguous to me.

But it's ok. I still enjoyed it, and enjoyed the whole series.


----------



## aindik

scooterboy said:


> I did read the thread, but I still don't understand how it's so clear to everyone.
> 
> It seems very ambiguous to me.
> 
> But it's ok. I still enjoyed it, and enjoyed the whole series.


It's clear to everyone because we are assuming that in the scene with Jack and Christian, Christian was telling the truth.


----------



## DevdogAZ

scooterboy said:


> I did read the thread, but I still don't understand how it's so clear to everyone.
> 
> It seems very ambiguous to me.
> 
> But it's ok. I still enjoyed it, and enjoyed the whole series.


That's funny, because I've heard several critics bemoaning the fact that they didn't leave it more ambiguous, but instead hit us over the head with it when Christian was explaining everything to Jack.


----------



## jradford

scooterboy said:


> I guess the same thing that gave others the impression that the sideways timeline was purgatory. Specifically, that they all eventually realized that they needed to move on to the next stage. The only question is how far back from that point did they actually die?
> 
> The main thing I don't get is if the island life was real, and the sideways timeline was purgatory, then how did they each exist in both places at once? Conversely, if the sideways timeline *didn't* happen at the same time as the island life but after it, how did each of them die and get there?


I think one of the things Christian said to Jack basically stated that there was no such thing as time, (or "now," as Christian put it,) in the Sideways verse. You can't compare it to any sort of timeline taking place in the real world.


----------



## jking

scooterboy said:


> I did read the thread, but I still don't understand how it's so clear to everyone.
> 
> It seems very ambiguous to me.
> 
> But it's ok. I still enjoyed it, and enjoyed the whole series.


I can't remember the exact dialog, but Christian told Jack that they had created this place so that they could find each other, because the time they had spent together was the most important of their lives. Had they died in the initial crash, they wouldn't ever have even known each other. They would have been a bunch of strangers who died in a plane crash. The island stuff had to have happened, in order for them to have been important enough to one another to want to find each other again.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Not to mention that how were characters like Desmond and Penny in the church if the Island stuff never happened and the 815 passengers died in the crash?


----------



## Waldorf

jradford said:


> I think one of the things Christian said to Jack basically stated that there was no such thing as time, (or "now," as Christian put it,) in the Sideways verse. You can't compare it to any sort of timeline taking place in the real world.


Yes.. it makes things such as Daniel Faraday's mom not being ready "yet" kind of strange. As if she would be ready further in the future even though there is no time.

On second viewing, when Sun and Jin told Sawyer they didn't need protecting, it seems more humorous. It's as if they're saying, "we're already dead.. what are you going to protect us from?"


----------



## Delta13

Momma Faraday / Momma Widmore doesn't need more time to get ready, she simply wants more time to enjoy being with her son. Like she's soothing guilt. There may be no "now", but the clocks work if you wish.


----------



## danterner

scooterboy said:


> I guess the same thing that gave others the impression that the sideways timeline was purgatory. Specifically, that they all eventually realized that they needed to move on to the next stage. The only question is how far back from that point did they actually die?
> 
> The main thing I don't get is if the island life was real, and the sideways timeline was purgatory, then how did they each exist in both places at once? Conversely, if the sideways timeline *didn't* happen at the same time as the island life but after it, how did each of them die and get there?


At the risk of making things more confusing, I'll take a crack at explaining this via a quick diagram:









Each pink dot on the linear time arrow represents someone's death. When they die, they go to purgatory. Purgatory is outside of time, so it doesn't matter when in the real world they died. The moment of their death in the real world is their first moment in purgatory. Presumably, purgatory "starts" at the same time for each of our losties --- say, on 815.

Think about Juliette's death. She talked about how "it worked" and about getting coffee. At the time we assumed "it worked" referred to the bomb, but really it was a bleed-over from her conversation with Sawyer by the vending machines in purgatory: unplugging and replugging them worked. And then they talked about getting coffee. So Juliette entered purgatory right as she died.

Jack, on the other hand, entered purgatory after he plugged the stopper back into the island. He laid down and succumbed to his fatal stab wounds. The fact that he happened to lay down in the same place and position as where we "found" him in the opening scene of the pilot episode is just a nice bit of literary parallel, as is bookending the series with his eye opening versus eye closing. We're not supposed to think that the final scene with him bleeding out took place in the moments immediately following the crash of 815 or anything like that. Look at his clothing. It's entirely different. That's because everything that happened (on-island and off) between the crash and his death years later really did happen.

Unfortunately, the fact that Darlton had him lie down in precisely the same spot has led some people to be confused about that. And that confusion was compounded when ABC took it upon themselves to throw in some shots of 815 wreckage during the credits. They were just trying to "ease the transition to the next show" but they wound up leading people toward believing that we were being told that (1) 815 really did crash with no survivors, or (2) Ajira crashed right after takeoff. Neither is the case.

The real puzzle, for me, is the question: Do the purgatory scenes we have seen come from Jack as his dying vision, or is it just as Christian explained it to be (and when Jack died, he went to purgatory just as all had before him and some would well after him). I vacillated between the two and see the merits of both, but ultimately decided the second is the way I choose to believe.


----------



## DavidTigerFan

LOL I love the graphic.


----------



## scooterboy

Thank you all for explaining it to me. I guess Christian's explanation just didn't sink in when I watched it, and the wreckage shots during the credits did indeed confuse me.

I think I get it now.


----------



## stellie93

I liked the ending much better after a read the first couple pages of the thread and thought about it a little. It grows on you. So 5 days later I finally got caught up. 

Comparing this to Twin Peaks is a huge insult. I liked Twin Peaks, but it had no plot whatsoever. I see the comparison to Stephen King books. The trip is always way better than the ending in them. 

A couple things from Hurley's podcast. They said that in the script the church scene was referred to as Jin and Sun's wedding to keep them in the dark. Also he said that there were several vans outside all with Santa Rosa insignia on them. They were afraid it was going to be everyone crazy in the asylum at the end. 

The best 6 years in TV ever, and a great ending. :up:


----------



## Magnolia88

slydog75 said:


> I just don't see how anyone came away from that thinking they all died in the crash.


I don't either.

The next morning after the finale, on GMA they were all "so everyone was dead all along and they were in purgatory the whole time." Huh?  Apparently quite a few people believed that, but I don't understand how, if they watched the whole finale.

Christian explained it all to Jack. They all died at different times, some of them many years apart. (Hurley could have lived for thousands of years, I guess, if the drinking of the water made him immortal, although that isn't clear to me.) So they could not have died in the crash, all at the same time.

There were a lot of questions left ambiguous or unanswered at the end of the finale, but that wasn't one of them. I don't see how anything that happened in the finale made anyone think they all died in the crash.


----------



## DevdogAZ

stellie93 said:


> A couple things from Hurley's podcast. They said that in the script the church scene was referred to as Jin and Sun's wedding to keep them in the dark. Also he said that there were several vans outside all with Santa Rosa insignia on them. They were afraid it was going to be everyone crazy in the asylum at the end.


They didn't put that in the script. Anyone who had a copy of the script could read it and would know that's not what was going on at the church. He said they put a sign in front of the church that said Jin and Sun's wedding, and also parked a bunch of Santa Rosa Mental Hospital vans in front of the church just to throw any potential spies off the trail.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

A look at the complete series set. Now with senet.

http://www.sl-lost.com/2010/05/28/lost-the-complete-collection-season-6-blu-ray-dvd-details/


----------



## aindik

DevdogAZ said:


> They didn't put that in the script. Anyone who had a copy of the script could read it and would know that's not what was going on at the church. He said they put a sign in front of the church that said Jin and Sun's wedding, and also parked a bunch of Santa Rosa Mental Hospital vans in front of the church just to throw any potential spies off the trail.


I think it was a call sheet, not a script, that said the scene was Jin & Sun's wedding. In case it leaked.


----------



## Keith_R90210

danterner said:


> At the risk of making things more confusing, I'll take a crack at explaining this via a quick diagram:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Each pink dot on the linear time arrow represents someone's death. When they die, they go to purgatory. Purgatory is outside of time, so it doesn't matter when in the real world they died. The moment of their death in the real world is their first moment in purgatory. Presumably, purgatory "starts" at the same time for each of our losties --- say, on 815.
> 
> Think about Juliette's death. She talked about how "it worked" and about getting coffee. At the time we assumed "it worked" referred to the bomb, but really it was a bleed-over from her conversation with Sawyer by the vending machines in purgatory: unplugging and replugging them worked. And then they talked about getting coffee. So Juliette entered purgatory right as she died.
> 
> Jack, on the other hand, entered purgatory after he plugged the stopper back into the island. He laid down and succumbed to his fatal stab wounds. The fact that he happened to lay down in the same place and position as where we "found" him in the opening scene of the pilot episode is just a nice bit of literary parallel, as is bookending the series with his eye opening versus eye closing. We're not supposed to think that the final scene with him bleeding out took place in the moments immediately following the crash of 815 or anything like that. Look at his clothing. It's entirely different. That's because everything that happened (on-island and off) between the crash and his death years later really did happen.
> 
> Unfortunately, the fact that Darlton had him lie down in precisely the same spot has led some people to be confused about that. And that confusion was compounded when ABC took it upon themselves to throw in some shots of 815 wreckage during the credits. They were just trying to "ease the transition to the next show" but they wound up leading people toward believing that we were being told that (1) 815 really did crash with no survivors, or (2) Ajira crashed right after takeoff. Neither is the case.
> 
> The real puzzle, for me, is the question: Do the purgatory scenes we have seen come from Jack as his dying vision, or is it just as Christian explained it to be (and when Jack died, he went to purgatory just as all had before him and some would well after him). I vacillated between the two and see the merits of both, but ultimately decided the second is the way I choose to believe.


Good diagram and explanation. It took me some reading through this thread the day after the finale but it all makes sense to me now. I still don't understand how people could think otherwise when Christian outright explained it in the church.

I tend to lean towards the second option (that it is just as Christian explained it), the structure of the scene and the final closing shot do make it a puzzle though. I choose to believe it * is not* Jack's final death vision and feel much more satisfied with it being something that they all took part in.

The way I see it (and I apologize if I'm smeeking), it makes more sense if it is everyone partaking. Why would Jack see a world where Sun gets shot and Kate is arrested again, or him and Juliette are divorced? Also as others have said, why would Christian have a reason to lie to him at this point?

I think the logical conclusion at this point is that it is everyone's vision and not just Jack's.


----------



## philw1776

Keith_R90210 said:


> Good diagram and explanation. It took me some reading through this thread the day after the finale but it all makes sense to me now. I still don't understand how people could think otherwise when Christian outright explained it in the church.
> 
> I tend to lean towards the second option (that it is just as Christian explained it), the structure of the scene and the final closing shot do make it a puzzle though. I choose to believe it * is not* Jack's final death vision and feel much more satisfied with it being something that they all took part in.
> 
> The way I see it (and I apologize if I'm smeeking), it makes more sense if it is everyone partaking. *Why would Jack see a world where Sun gets shot and Kate is arrested again, or him and Juliette are divorced? Also as others have said, why would Christian have a reason to lie to him at this point? *
> 
> I think the logical conclusion at this point is that it is everyone's vision and not just Jack's.


Good diagram & good defense of the everyone's in Limbo vs Jack's vision.

ABC really screwed the pooch for many with those concluding shots. Had me wondering for a minute.


----------



## wprager

I'm really struggling trying to understand why some of you (_especially_ some of you) are even considering that the entire LAX could have been Jack's personal purgatory. There was absolutely nothing that pointed to that, and quite a few things that pointed away from it.

I can understand how you may feel that that *could have* been another way to finish, maybe even say that that's how *you* would have done it, but as far as I am concerned there is no ambiguity at all. Christian spelled it out -- they created this place together so they could all meet up after they died. All those scenes we were shown that had no connection whatsoever to Jack are pretty conclusive as well.

Oh, by the way, maybe "this place" did not refer to the entire sideways universe. Only a small number of them gathered at the church (plus Ben just outside and some of the later characters like Eloise and Daniel, Charlotte, Miles, etc.), but we definitely saw many, many other characters and countless "strangers". Perhaps "this place" refers to the concert that was used as an excuse to get them all together, or maybe just the church. Who knows. I'm not losing any sleep over why there were so many other people in the place that only a small number of them created for themselves.


----------



## Anubys

scooterboy said:


> Thank you all for explaining it to me. I guess Christian's explanation just didn't sink in when I watched it, and the wreckage shots during the credits did indeed confuse me.
> 
> I think I get it now.


I didn't get it at first, either...you get so wrapped up into not missing anything that you miss the obvious...I kind of got the idea but wasn't sure until I came here and read everyone's comments...

once I went back and re-watched, it was so painfully obvious that I feel like a dunce for not getting all of it the first time...I think it's one of those deals where you are so used to double/triple meanings and mysteries that when everything was put right there in black and white, your mind just could not accept it!


----------



## danterner

wprager said:


> I'm really struggling trying to understand why some of you (_especially_ some of you) are even considering that the entire LAX could have been Jack's personal purgatory. There was absolutely nothing that pointed to that, and quite a few things that pointed away from it.
> 
> I can understand how you may feel that that *could have* been another way to finish, maybe even say that that's how *you* would have done it, but as far as I am concerned there is no ambiguity at all. Christian spelled it out -- they created this place together so they could all meet up after they died. All those scenes we were shown that had no connection whatsoever to Jack are pretty conclusive as well.


While I agree that there are quite a few things pointing away from it, I personally wouldn't go so far as to say there's absolutely nothing pointing to it:

How about the sound of the Ajira jet, for one? It's the very last thing Jack sees and hears as he dies. The sound it makes as it passes overhead is the exact same sound used this season to introduce all of the sideways-verse segments. To me, that could be interpreted as a hint that all of the sideways-verse segments spring from Jack's dying vision. If not, why use that particular sound to preceed the flash-sidewayses? I can understand why the standard flashback "whoosh" wouldn't be used. (Was there a separate sound for the flash forwards, or was it the same whoosh?) But why the exact same Ajira noise Jack hears as he's dying? In hindsight, it would have been cool if each flash sideways had been preceeded by a whoosh made up of the sounds occuring during that character's death. For example, Sun and Jin's flash sideways could have started with the sound of flooding water. Sayid's with a whooshing explosion sound, etc.

There's also the fact that the people in the church were Jack-centric (for lack of a better way to explain it). Why the pairing of Shannon and Sayid, for example, when it would have made more sense for it to be Sayid and Nadia? Arguably, it could be because Jack is more familiar with Shannon/Sayid than Sayid/Nadia.

Not conclusive, but not "absolutely nothing," either. For me, it lends enough ambiguity to open the door to consider the possibility of there being an alternate interpretation. Like I said, though, ultimately I've come around to agree with you (and the majority).

EDITED TO ADD: It's also possible to consider that while the flash sideways in the finale was Jack's dying vision/entry to purgatory, the other flash sidewayses throughout the season were not Jack's, they were those of the respective focus characters. I'm smeeking myself so I'll stop now.


----------



## astrohip

Magnolia88 said:


> The next morning after the finale, on GMA they were all "so everyone was dead all along and they were in purgatory the whole time." Huh?  Apparently quite a few people believed that, but I don't understand how, if they watched the whole finale.


I saw that, and was *stunned *they said that. And on ABC! One of the biggest events of poor ABC's TV year, and it gets about 20 seconds on GMA. And the talking head (no idea who it was, first time I've watched GMA in decades) says, "So we found out they all died in the crash, and it was purgatory". And then she says, "So we wasted six years watching it."

This is on ABC! :down:


----------



## Magnolia88

astrohip said:


> I saw that, and was *stunned *they said that. And on ABC!


I actually laughed. At first, I thought they were kidding. And then I thought, "oh, boy, are they going to get a lot of e-mails." 

It was Elizabeth Vargas and Robin Roberts iirc. I assumed that they didn't actually watch it and one of the producers just summarized it for them in their notes. Badly.


----------



## Keith_R90210

astrohip said:


> I saw that, and was *stunned *they said that. And on ABC! One of the biggest events of poor ABC's TV year, and it gets about 20 seconds on GMA. And the talking head (no idea who it was, first time I've watched GMA in decades) says, "So we found out they all died in the crash, and it was purgatory". And then she says, "So we wasted six years watching it."
> 
> This is on ABC! :down:


I'm not surprised. GMA is just plain awful. I can't even tolerate it anymore.

The ending is quite heady though and it certainly isn't for everyone. Lost isn't one of those shows that appeals greatly to the average American viewer, and I'd be willing to guess that a large portion of the viewing audience who watched it would never be found in a discussion like this.

Christian's dialogue did make it pretty clear (at least to me) but the final ABC tribute with the Oceanic wreckage definitely could throw some people off.

I finally got to do a second viewing tonight and I am still debating on the whole Jack's dying vision thing. I'm inclined to believe that it wasn't Jack's dying vision but there are nagging pieces of evidence such as the Ajira flight engines before the FS that make me question my assumptions.

My second viewing made me like the finale even more, despite knowing the final outcome it still evoked a strong emotional reaction from me.

One other thing which I haven't seen anyone really mention: Is Jack wounded in the same area on his abdomen during the knife fight that he is in the beginning of the pilot?

I remember after Jack getting stabbed that Kate and him have a dialogue that goes a long the lines of: "It's ok, stitch me up and count to five" or something like that. I thought that was a great line.

I'm really going to miss this show.


----------



## Anubys

Keith_R90210 said:


> One other thing which I haven't seen anyone really mention: Is Jack wounded in the same area on his abdomen during the knife fight that he is in the beginning of the pilot?
> 
> I remember after Jack getting stabbed that Kate and him have a dialogue that goes a long the lines of: "It's ok, stitch me up and count to five" or something like that. I thought that was a great line.
> 
> I'm really going to miss this show.


absolutely not the same spot...in the pilot, it was a cut on his back, left side (where he could not reach)...in the Finale, it was on the front, right side (he could have stiched himself up to close the wound, of course, it wasn't just a deep cut, it was a deep stab with a very long knife, so stiching the cut wasn't going to help him)...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Keith_R90210 said:


> Christian's dialogue did make it pretty clear (at least to me) but the final ABC tribute with the Oceanic wreckage definitely could throw some people off.


I think two other things that could throw people off are:

1) Despite Christian's clarity, there are some people (a lot of people) who get brain-freeze whenever time travel comes along. The notion that something could happen simultaneously and yet at different times in different people's personal timelines is a notion that some people (a lot?) will resist fiercely. Remember the people here, where geeky concepts are a lot more natural than out there "in the wild," who had trouble with the idea that the Losties who were stuck back in the 70s were really in the past, and that those events were taking place decades earlier than the "present day" events that were being shown in the same episodes. Then multiply that effect to adjust for how less geeky normal people are than us...

2) The way Jack's death was shown was very, very consistent with the whole thing being in his head. I know that's not what they intended, but it very much "felt" that way (and a part of me wishes it were true, because even "it was all a dream" is better in my mind than that messy, illogical purgatory). And I suspect for people past whom the timeless purgatory zoomed, the idea that Jack was dying from the original crash (which frankly never occurred to me until people Out There started saying it) would be something they could cling to to make sense of it all.

The fact that the Purgatory thing came so much out of the blue certainly didn't help in getting people who would have difficulty with the basic concept to grasp what was going on...


----------



## scooterboy

slydog75 said:


> I just don't see how anyone came away from that thinking they all died in the crash.





Magnolia88 said:


> I don't either.
> ...I don't see how anything that happened in the finale made anyone think they all died in the crash.





Keith_R90210 said:


> I still don't understand how people could think otherwise when Christian outright explained it in the church.


Ok - I get it. I'm an idiot.

But it's not like we weren't hit with a thousand other things going on in this finale. I didn't grok what Christian said - sue me. Maybe I was distracted by a wife or a cat during his dialog - I don't remember.



> The way I see it (and I apologize if I'm smeeking)


Hell, it wouldn't be a true Lost thread without smeeking.


----------



## Hunter Green

"They were dead the whole time" is like "Sun didn't sleep with Dae" to the tenth power.


----------



## Freshman JS

how did our losties get to the island...did Jacob bring them? or did desmond failure to push the button cause the crash? did jacob know that desmond would fail to push the button at the exact moment that the plane that carried several candidates passed by? what do you guys think?


----------



## DevdogAZ

Freshman JS said:


> how did our losties get to the island...did Jacob bring them? or did desmond failure to push the button cause the crash? did jacob know that desmond would fail to push the button at the exact moment that the plane that carried several candidates passed by? what do you guys think?


Don't forget that the plane had malfunctioned and was 1,000 miles off course when it crashed. Desmond had nothing to do with that. And Desmond had nothing to do with manipulating the lives of several of the passengers to ensure they were on that plane. I think Desmond failing to push the button is the mechanism that was the direct cause of the plane crash, but the only reason the plane was there in the first place is because Jacob put it there, because he knew Desmond would fail to push the button at that time.


----------



## drumorgan

BitbyBlit said:


> They come...to be found.


I would love to post this (credited, of course) in my FB page to foster conversation there.


----------



## BitbyBlit

drumorgan said:


> I would love to post this (credited, of course) in my FB page to foster conversation there.


Sure, be my guest. If you don't want a giant wall of text in your page, you can also directly link to it using this link.


----------



## drumorgan

http://www.facebook.com/notes/dru-m...ivocommunitycom-author-bitbyblit/415986289776


----------



## JYoung

Rob Helmerichs said:


> (and a part of me wishes it were true, because even "it was all a dream" is better in my mind than that messy, illogical purgatory).


There's a logical purgatory?
Is that where Vulcans go?


----------



## stellie93

aindik said:


> I think it was a call sheet, not a script, that said the scene was Jin & Sun's wedding. In case it leaked.


Yes, it was call sheet, but I couldn't remember that since I don't know what a call sheet is. But they did say that the conversation between Jack and Christian wasn't in anyone else's script and that no one was allowed to watch while they filmed it.

I'm one of those who have "brain freeze" when trying to understand the concept of a universe where there is no concept of time. Time travel is easier to get than that, I think, but still gives me a headache.  It's a good question--if there is an afterlife, do we all get there at the same time, or have our older friends and relatives been there waiting for us?


----------



## danterner

stellie93 said:


> if there is an afterlife, do we all get there at the same time, or have our older friends and relatives been there waiting for us?


Yes


----------



## Anubys

danterner said:


> Yes


actually. No.

nobody is waiting...all get there at the same time regardless of when they die...time is not linear there...they all died at different times and they were all there at the same time (Hugo and Ben could have died thousands of years later)...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Anubys said:


> actually. No.


Actually, you need to read the question he was answering more carefully...it was not a "yes or no" question.


----------



## Anubys

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Actually, you need to read the question he was answering more carefully...it was not a "yes or no" question.


oh, I noticed the question (which I thought was a little...shall we say, broad?)...but unlike SOME people, I put it into the context of the thread


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Anubys said:


> oh, I noticed the question (which I thought was a little...shall we say, broad?)...but unlike SOME people, I put it into the context of the thread


Unlike SOME people, I realized he was joking.


----------



## jkeegan

Score:

Me: 2

In this one camping trip I've already converted two people (one a friend who was vehemently against the finale) and one total stranger & his 3-4 teenage sons), all of which are now eager to rewatch the entire series.

I feel like Desmond in the flash sideways, going around to people and helping them let go of the "what about Walt?" questions and bringing them into the happy light.

Maybe that was deliberate by the writers, and why they're in silence not talking about the finale. They want us to figure it out and have the fun of bringing people into the light.


----------



## Anubys

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Unlike SOME people, I realized he was joking.


Actually, No. SHE was not


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Anubys said:


> Actually, No. SHE was not


Dan Terner's a she?!?

Dang, is MY face red!


----------



## stellie93

I was waxing philosophical and asking a rhetorical question about real life. 

He was kidding.

Anubys thought I was talking about the show. (I think). 

I'll try to be more clear in future.


----------



## betts4

jkeegan said:


> Score:
> 
> Me: 2
> 
> In this one camping trip I've already converted two people (one a friend who was vehemently against the finale) and one total stranger & his 3-4 teenage sons), all of which are now eager to rewatch the entire series.
> 
> I feel like Desmond in the flash sideways, going around to people and helping them let go of the "what about Walt?" questions and bringing them into the happy light.
> 
> Maybe that was deliberate by the writers, and why they're in silence not talking about the finale. They want us to figure it out and have the fun of bringing people into the light.


Ha! Yes!! I was at a memorial day picnic yesterday and there were 4 of us talking about it. 2 that were vehemently badmouthing the ending, 1 that didn't 'get it' and me.

Of the 2 that were bad mouthing it, I explained away most all of the loudest guys reasons for thinking it was not right (thanks to a lot of you here at tcf) and the other guy just realized I was a force to be reckoned with and shut up. The one guy that didn't get it and I talked for a good long while and I ended up telling him to go rewatch it and he will appreciate it.

Even more fun was just as we were ending the conversation, another friend of mine came up and was like "Betts, I loved that finale! Wasn't it awesome!!" He and I have been watching LOST since season one and talking about it afterwards. So I wasn't the only one there 'defending' it.


----------



## danterner

I am male, and I was joking. Rob's right on all counts (as usual). 

Stellie asked a question about a "universe with no concept of time" but the choices she posed both still depended upon the concept of time (e.g. "do we get all get there at the same time" versus "have our friends and relatives been there waiting for us.") Either one of those choices can't be right (or they both can) in a universe with no concept of time. So it seemed the only right answer to the (non-yes/no) question was "yes"


----------



## jkeegan

I think there's just a bit too much reading into Christian's statement about time in the flash sideways. My interpretation was just that they were trying to explain that right after Jack died, he was in sideways 815, and right after Boone died, he was in sideways 815, and right after Hurley died, he was in 815. That's it.

As an aside I think Christian's line was actually something like "There is no 'now' here" in response to something like "but why are they all here now?", but I'll go look that up.


----------



## Turtleboy

jkeegan said:


> My interpretation was just that they were trying to explain that right after Jack died, he was in sideways 815, and right after Boone died, he was in sideways 815, and right after Hurley died, he was in 815. That's it.


That's exactly what happened. It's amazing that so many people (including a lot of professional reviewers) are missing that.

There is a lot that was ambiguous in the series and a lot of unanswered questions. This was not one of them.


----------



## Anubys

danterner said:


> I am male, and I was joking. Rob's right on all counts (as usual).
> 
> Stellie asked a question about a "universe with no concept of time" but the choices she posed both still depended upon the concept of time (e.g. "do we get all get there at the same time" versus "have our friends and relatives been there waiting for us.") Either one of those choices can't be right (or they both can) in a universe with no concept of time. So it seemed the only right answer to the (non-yes/no) question was "yes"


male? really? you need to change your avatar 

I was actually talking about Stellie...but it's funnier about you, so let's go with that 

Christian did say "there is no now, here", or something very close to it...


----------



## DevdogAZ

jkeegan said:


> I think there's just a bit too much reading into Christian's statement about time in the flash sideways. My interpretation was just that they were trying to explain that right after Jack died, he was in sideways 815, and right after Boone died, he was in sideways 815, and right after Hurley died, he was in 815. That's it.


I don't think it's quite that simple. Throughout the season, several of us commented on strange timeline anomalies in the sideways universe. For example, Sun and Jin got off the plane, were detained by customs, released, went to their hotel, slept over, and the next morning, Keamy and his crew showed up, there was the showdown at the restaurant, and Sun was rushed to the hospital. So as far as we know, Sun was rushed to the hospital the day after the flight landed.

However, after the flight landed, Locke went back to work (presumably the next day), got fired by Randy, met Hurley in the parking lot, was referred to Rose's temp agency, got a job as a substitute at Ben's school, helped Ben organize a coup against the principal, and then was ultimately run down by Desmond and was rushed to the hospital.

Sun and Locke are being wheeled into the hospital at the same time. Are we to believe that Locke did all of that stuff in the one day after the flight landed?

There were several other strange time anomalies, and as soon as Christian said, "there is no now here," I knew those anomalies were intentional and this was the explanation for them.


----------



## Family

Well count me as one of those idiots who thinks alternate interpretations are valid.

I believe the entire LOST story to be collective near death experiences of anyone/everyone who ever visited the island. So I interpret Jack's back story episodes as the viewer seeing Jack's predeath experience... Kate's backstories as hers... Hurley's as his and so on. When Christian said they all died at different times - yes the others might have been dead for years or people on the plane might have died minutes or even seconds apart. After all, the amount of time did not matter in the sideways universe. When Christian said "these people were most important" it was because each had worked out life's issues in this collaborative predeath setting that paved the way for what was next.

We are left with so many unexplained or poorly explained questions about the island which leads the true Lost fan to have to conclude that the island wasn't important... the personal relationships were. This after six years of continuous questions about the mysterious magical island. Well the finale concluded the people counted most and with this ending I agree. The island wasn't important because its mysteries were only a setting for each individual to tie up his/her life. This board slams those with this opinion, but it seems to me that the its members find it easier to believe in time travel, smoke monsters, immortality and other fantasy than the possibility of collective near death experience.

The most common phrases during the six years... the island isn't done with you.... the island wants you to do this. Why is it impossible to believe that what this meant is "Jack you are not resolved" or "Kate you have to work out killing your step father." I am not saying my interpretation is correct... I think the writers intentionally left the debate open. This narrow group (I mean anyone posting to a Lost forum for years is not the average viewer) saw it only one way.


----------



## madscientist

The reason we all feel that our interpretation is correct is that the show itself told us (in the form of Christian's speech, and others) what is happening. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, in or out of the show, that supports the "near-death experience" interpretation. Most of the people in this forum have watched the show very carefully over the last 6 years and we believe that the show itself will tell us how it should be interpreted, and we want to base our interpretation on the actual events and dialog in the show. Various characters saying that the island wants this or that, or the belief that not enough of the island mythology was explained, are certainly not even close to proof that none of it ever existed and everyone is just having a near-death experience. Saying that the writers left the debate open is actually not true: in fact they used Christian to provide the most concrete answer to this debate of just about any "mystery" in Lost.

In short, your interpretation has no foundation in the show itself.

N, of course, TTAWWT. It certainly doesn't bother me that other people want to view the show differently: have at it! But, that doesn't meant that we should all agree that some other interpretation is equally likely... it just isn't.


----------



## Family

madscientist said:


> The reason we all feel that our interpretation is correct is that the show itself told us (in the form of Christian's speech, and others) what is happening. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, in or out of the show, that supports the "near-death experience" interpretation. Most of the people in this forum have watched the show very carefully over the last 6 years and we believe that the show itself will tell us how it should be interpreted, and we want to base our interpretation on the actual events and dialog in the show. Various characters saying that the island wants this or that, or the belief that not enough of the island mythology was explained, are certainly not even close to proof that none of it ever existed and everyone is just having a near-death experience. Saying that the writers left the debate open is actually not true: in fact they used Christian to provide the most concrete answer to this debate of just about any "mystery" in Lost.
> 
> In short, your interpretation has no foundation in the show itself.
> 
> N, of course, TTAWWT. It certainly doesn't bother me that other people want to view the show differently: have at it! But, that doesn't meant that we should all agree that some other interpretation is equally likely... it just isn't.


What about Christian's speech didn't fit my interpretation? As I said they did die at different times. Some died instantly, Jack lived to walk through the woods, and the Other's (Ben/Julliet) died whenever they did. Who knows when Desmond/Penny/the pilot died?

What's your explanation on why the writers chose to leave so much unexplained? Answers like the characters were more important are also interpretations which to me didn't follow the six years of what the show (or these threads for that matter) were about. So for me anyway leaving many key mysteries unresolved was either poor planning or the writers wanted the ending to have personal meaning for each viewer.


----------



## Anubys

Family said:


> What about Christian's speech didn't fit my interpretation? As I said they did die at different times. Some died instantly, Jack lived to walk through the woods, and the Other's (Ben/Julliet) died whenever they did. Who knows when Desmond/Penny/the pilot died?


I think you're ignoring the part where he told Jack that the island was real and that everything was real...he also told him that the time he spent with these people was the most important time of his life...

to say that it was real and important for...oh...the hour it took for everyone to die on the island from the crash is a little hard to agree with; which is what, I believe, you are trying to say...

everything that happened is real does not mean "real in your head", IMHO...


----------



## Family

Anubys said:


> I think you're ignoring the part where he told Jack that the island was real and that everything was real...he also told him that the time he spent with these people was the most important time of his life...
> 
> to say that it was real and important for...oh...the hour it took for everyone to die on the island from the crash is a little hard to agree with; which is what, I believe, you are trying to say...
> 
> everything that happened is real does not mean "real in your head", IMHO...


It was real because it was collective amongst all those who were involved in the story wheither from the plane or not. It was not in Jack's/Kate's or anyone's head, but was a collaborative experience. The backstories might have been person specific, but the time together was real... just out of body.

It's as good an explanation as polar bears/time travel/Jacob's cabin. And these people were most important to each other because together they resolved their lives with the island as a setting. How is this interpretation any less believable than the popular one floating around?


----------



## Anubys

Family said:


> It was real because it was collective amongst all those who were involved in the story wheither from the plane or not. It was not in Jack's/Kate's or anyone's head, but was a collaborative experience. The backstories might have been person specific, but the time together was real... just out of body.
> 
> It's as good an explanation as polar bears/time travel/Jacob's cabin. And these people were most important to each other because together they resolved their lives with the island as a setting. How is this interpretation any less believable than the popular one floating around?


I don't want to sound like an a$$, it just comes naturally...but...

you seem to confuse the words "real" and "imagined" 

a collective out of body experience is all fine and dandy, but it's not real...I don't know how else to say it...

what you're suggesting is certainly plausible...just as you can make a case that our current existence is not real but just some alien's dream...again, plausible, but not likely...

I'd like to think that in this case, the writers told us directly what it was: real...what we saw actually happened...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Yeah, it's pretty clear what the writers had in mind. I seek alternatives not because I'm unclear on their intent, but because I find the whole Purgatory thing (as they presented it) so relentlessly STUPID that I would prefer to pretend that it's something else going on.


----------



## Family

You don't sound like an a$$ at all.

It depends on your interpretation of reality. My wife can't accept time travel, polar bears on an island, or immortality as having any chance of being real, but a collective out of body experience might be. How can you bring up anything in the Lost universe as being plausable, but not likely, especially when it's a dead person telling Jack what's real. 

Perhaps I'm like Rob... the ending sucked so much that I search for a meaningful conclusion. While I am happy it was all about the people... I am searching for an ending that looked like the writers actually knew what they were doing.

Besides Anubys from reading a previous thread - you were a Johnny come late to Lost anyway. I can't take the opinion of a newbie


----------



## gchance

Family said:


> Besides Anubys from reading a previous thread - you were a Johnny come late to Lost anyway. I can't take the opinion of a newbie


One could argue his opinions are more accurate because he's seen most of the series more recently than you have, so his memory is clearer (unless of course you've watched the DVD's as recently as he has).

I'm trying to grasp the concept of how when a TV series tells you what's going on via expository dialogue, you try to interpret it differently.

Greg


----------



## Anubys

Family said:


> You don't sound like an a$$ at all.
> 
> It depends on your interpretation of reality. My wife can't accept time travel, polar bears on an island, or immortality as having any chance of being real, but a collective out of body experience might be. How can you bring up anything in the Lost universe as being plausable, but not likely, especially when it's a dead person telling Jack what's real.
> 
> Perhaps I'm like Rob... the ending sucked so much that I search for a meaningful conclusion. While I am happy it was all about the people... I am searching for an ending that looked like the writers actually knew what they were doing.
> 
> Besides Anubys from reading a previous thread - you were a Johnny come late to Lost anyway. I can't take the opinion of a newbie


ok...the polar bears live on the island because the Dharma people brought them there...minor point in your argument, I know, but just wanted it out of the way...

I'm not disagreeing that there may have been a better ending or explanation just that...



gchance said:


> One could argue his opinions are more accurate because he's seen most of the series more recently than you have, so his memory is clearer (unless of course you've watched the DVD's as recently as he has).
> 
> I'm trying to grasp the concept of how when a TV series tells you what's going on via expository dialogue, you try to interpret it differently.
> 
> Greg


...it's the one we were given, as Greg points out...and just like Rob said before that: you don't have to LIKE it, but as far as the writers are concerned, this is the answer


----------



## Family

gchance said:


> I'm trying to grasp the concept of how when a TV series tells you what's going on via expository dialogue, you try to interpret it differently.
> 
> Greg


I believe Lost of all shows would be open to interpretation and thought. It was stated many times (by I believe even the writers) that every question leads to another question. Throughout the series (right up til the end) many things never had definitive answers. And even when answers were given they were often misdirections to both viewers and character.

So what was Christian supposed to say, "Jack everything that happened which helped resolve your life and helped resolve the lives of those you love happened in your minds?" Think Jack would have quietly moved on with that? Why is it that thoughout the series the motivation of Dharma, Jacob, the Others, the Island, Richard was always filled with misdirection and suddenly because it was the ending we are supposed to take everything said literally. Lost was fantasy and we are trying to tie it together with a nice little bow as a finished package when the writers obviously left much of the rest of it up to interpretation.

Funny I thought the Polar Bears arrived because of the island moving during last season. Was it ever said Dharma brought them or this is another thing we figured out for ourselves?


----------



## Anubys

Family said:


> I believe Lost of all shows would be open to interpretation and thought. It was stated many times (by I believe even the writers) that every question leads to another question. Throughout the series (right up til the end) many things never had definitive answers. And even when answers were given they were often misdirections to both viewers and character.
> 
> So what was Christian supposed to say, "Jack everything that happened which helped resolve your life and helped resolve the lives of those you love happened in your minds?" Think Jack would have quietly moved on with that? Why is it that thoughout the series the motivation of Dharma, Jacob, the Others, the Island, Richard was always filled with misdirection and suddenly because it was the ending we are supposed to take everything said literally. Lost was fantasy and we are trying to tie it together with a nice little bow as a finished package when the writers obviously left much of the rest of it up to interpretation.
> 
> Funny I thought the Polar Bears arrived because of the island moving during last season. Was it ever said Dharma brought them or this is another thing we figured out for ourselves?


I think the cage where Sawyer was held (and finally figured out how to get the food) had the bears in it...they (the Others) made fun of James for figuring out how to get the food in more time than it took the bears...

also, one of the Dharma videos mentioned experimenting on polar bears...

I see your point about the overall theme of the show...the writers didn't have to have the scene with Christian at all if they wanted to leave it open for interpretation...they chose to go the direct route and give us this one answer :shrug:


----------



## Family

Anubys said:


> I think the cage where Sawyer was held (and finally figured out how to get the food) had the bears in it...they (the Others) made fun of James for figuring out how to get the food in more time than it took the bears...
> 
> also, one of the Dharma videos mentioned experimenting on polar bears...
> 
> I see your point about the overall theme of the show...the writers didn't have to have the scene with Christian at all if they wanted to leave it open for interpretation...they chose to go the direct route and give us this one answer :shrug:


And from what everyone says you are correct and I am wrong. But I am wishing the writers were better than this ending so I guess I've developed my own alternate universe... shrug too


----------



## philw1776

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, it's pretty clear what the writers had in mind. I seek alternatives not because I'm unclear on their intent, but because I find the whole Purgatory thing (as they presented it) so relentlessly STUPID that I would prefer to pretend that it's something else going on.


I confess that I was a Man of Faith that the writers would give us an ending that was imaginative, creative and answered some of the more cogent questions about the nature of the Island itself. While I agree that LOST was about the characters, in LOST the setting, the Island was FAR more integral to the story than if we'd watched a 6 year ensemble drama cast in NYC instead. Therefore to give short shrift to many of the fundamental mysteries that intrigued viewers from season one onward and instead waste half of this last season on the cute trick of SidewaysLA, pulled out of nowhere, seems like a break of trust. As a day one supporter of the writers, I was greatly let down. The "Look at this neat twist!" Purgatory trick hasn't succeeded in distracting me from the fact that they took the lazy way out dodging too many issues, something I expected from Battlestar Galactica, but was really surprised to see from LOST.


----------



## madscientist

As I said before, I have no problems with people inventing their own interpretations of the show: how you interpret it is no business of mine. Just please don't expect us to agree with you that that interpretation _could_ be what the writers of the show intended: it's clearly not the case. Christian was there to ensure that the vision of the show's creators was communicated clearly, so we'd all understand what we were seeing and that we _didn't_ come away thinking it was all a dream or whatever. There's no doubt the writers wanted us to believe that the island was real and that everything that happened there really happened (please understand when I say "real" I mean "real on the TV show LOST"; obviously these things are not _real_). Why shouldn't we accept that, on the TV show LOST, all these things are real? That's why it's a TV show and not a documentary.

Personally, I rather liked the ending. I liked the Sopranos ending, and the Six Feet Under ending, and The Wire ending. Maybe I'm just easy to please. I actually think the writers did a very good job with Lost; it was not nauseatingly insipid but it was hopeful. I don't really get why Rob thinks it's "relentlessly stupid"--I mean if you're in for the rest of the LOST canon, why balk at the last bit? It's certainly not (IMO) nearly the most out-there thing in the show.

As for answers, I'm in the camp that says things like the Island are fundamentally unexplainable and that just about any attempt to do so would end up being horrible (count me among those who hates midichlorians). The Island just IS, it's a place where some things happened to some people, and we watched a story about how they reacted and changed because of it.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

madscientist said:


> Personally, I rather liked the ending. I liked the Sopranos ending, and the Six Feet Under ending, and The Wire ending. Maybe I'm just easy to please. I actually think the writers did a very good job with Lost; it was not nauseatingly insipid but it was hopeful. I don't really get why Rob thinks it's "relentlessly stupid"--I mean if you're in for the rest of the LOST canon, why balk at the last bit? It's certainly not (IMO) nearly the most out-there thing in the show.


Because in addition to making almost no sense whatsoever, it comes completely out of the blue. The genius of the Sopranos and Wire endings is that they grew organically out of the shows. The Lost ending didn't. It just happened.


----------



## jkeegan

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Because in addition to making almost no sense whatsoever, it comes completely out of the blue. The genius of the Sopranos and Wire endings is that they grew organically out of the shows. The Lost ending didn't. It just happened.


Bah, you're just mad that the universe wasn't broken.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

jkeegan said:


> Bah, you're just mad that the universe wasn't broken.




But no, I'm more generally mad. That it all didn't add up to anything.

It was still a great series. I just wish it had soared across the finish line, not stumbled across.


----------



## DUSlider

Finally caught up to the end of this thread... oh my... Since the discussion of what happened for the finale is getting old and moldy and just turning into bickering back and forth of the different camps that hated it and liked it. I pose this question to you all...

If you were Lindelof and Cuse... How would YOU have ended the series? How would YOU have answered all of the questions that weren't answered?


----------



## unixadm

I think it was on Jimmy Kimmel Live after the finale, Cuse and Lindelof said that the finale was the creation of JJ Abrams after filming the Pilot episode. He had a vision of the crash on the island, knew of a bunch of mysteries he wanted to introduce and knew that the series finale would end in a church with all of them meeting up before moving onto the afterlife together. Abrams didn't know how long the series would last so that finale could have been at the end of the 1st season, 2nd season, etc depending on whether ABC kept picking up the show. 

From what I read into it, since the show kept an audience and was getting renewed, they had to throw in more filler, mysteries, the time travel stuff etc to keep people interested, but they knew from the beginning that lots of that wouldn't mean much in the end other than solidify the relationships of the main characters. None of that was originally written and they wrote that as things progressed. 

I liked the ending....yes, I would have liked to learn more about the island and it's creation, what it's purpose was, etc.....but in the end, it was all about the characters, and we got a good, bittersweet ending with all of the characters spending the afterlife with the ones that meant the most to them.

Has anyone watched the Enhanced finale on ABC? I am wondering what info/hints/clues they displayed during that final scene.


----------



## Boot

madscientist said:


> Just please don't expect us to agree with you that that interpretation _could_ be what the writers of the show intended: it's clearly not the case. Christian was there to ensure that the vision of the show's creators was communicated clearly, so we'd all understand what we were seeing and that we _didn't_ come away thinking it was all a dream or whatever.


How do you know this? The writers didn't come out and tell you why they wrote that line. You interpreted it. Another interpretation is that Christian said what he said to Jack because Jack needed to hear that in order to move on. He needed to believe that all this soul searching really happened.

I'm not saying I agree; I think it's far more likely that we're supposed to take Christian's speech at face value. But I think it's unfair to say that just because you have come to a conclusion that you're absolutely convinced of, others aren't allowed to see it differently.


----------



## slydog75

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But no, I'm more generally mad. That it all didn't add up to anything.
> 
> It was still a great series. I just wish it had soared across the finish line, not stumbled across.


Well, just keep in mind that in many people's minds (including my own) it did soar across the line.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

slydog75 said:


> Well, just keep in mind that in many people's minds (including my own) it did soar across the line.


True. But by definition, you're wrong, because you disagree with me.


----------



## jkeegan

slydog75 said:


> Well, just keep in mind that in many people's minds (including my own) it did soar across the line.


:up:


----------



## wprager

Boot said:


> How do you know this? The writers didn't come out and tell you why they wrote that line. You interpreted it. Another interpretation is that Christian said what he said to Jack because Jack needed to hear that in order to move on. He needed to believe that all this soul searching really happened.
> 
> I'm not saying I agree; I think it's far more likely that we're supposed to take Christian's speech at face value. But I think it's unfair to say that just because you have come to a conclusion that you're absolutely convinced of, others aren't allowed to see it differently.


If a character lies, the lie has to be exposed in some way. Can you think of any story where a character tells a lie but we never find out it was a lie? True, you can definitely create ambiguity (via visual queues) but that scene was played straight on. There was no ambiguity, and there was no further exposition; that was the end of the story and, therefore, it had to be the truth.

I honestly cannot see it any other way. Not to say that I cannot imagine a different ending, but that would be a different story.

And, for the record, Rob, it was way better than you think. And don't bother disagreeing, since you'll just be proving yourself wrong


----------



## ronsch

unixadm said:


> Has anyone watched the Enhanced finale on ABC? I am wondering what info/hints/clues they displayed during that final scene.


IIRC, there were no enhancements after the final commercial break. It was the same as the original airing for the final 15 minutes. Just to keep everyone arguing I guess.


----------



## betts4

slydog75 said:


> Well, just keep in mind that in many people's minds (including my own) it did soar across the line.


:up:


----------



## latrobe7

Rob Helmerichs said:


> True. But by definition, you're wrong, because you disagree with me.


Well, your level of accuracy is consistent; I will grant you that.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

latrobe7 said:


> Well, your level of accuracy is consistent; I will grant you that.


Well, of course it is! Duh!

Wait a minute...


----------



## Hunter Green

Boot said:


> How do you know this? The writers didn't come out and tell you why they wrote that line. You interpreted it. Another interpretation is that Christian said what he said to Jack because Jack needed to hear that in order to move on. He needed to believe that all this soul searching really happened.





Hunter Green said:


> "They were dead the whole time" is like "Sun didn't sleep with Dae" to the tenth power.


I was right, again.


----------



## BitbyBlit

Boot said:


> How do you know this? The writers didn't come out and tell you why they wrote that line. You interpreted it. Another interpretation is that Christian said what he said to Jack because Jack needed to hear that in order to move on. He needed to believe that all this soul searching really happened.
> 
> I'm not saying I agree; I think it's far more likely that we're supposed to take Christian's speech at face value. But I think it's unfair to say that just because you have come to a conclusion that you're absolutely convinced of, others aren't allowed to see it differently.


It wasn't just what Christian said, though. Hurley told Ben he was a great #2. Ben apologized to Locke for killing him. Why would he apologize for killing Locke if Locke was already dead after the plane crash? And why would either of those scenes have taken place in Jack's personal dying vision? The writers drew a lot of arrows to indicate that the island experience was real, and the only post-death experience was the sideways world.

If the island was their post-death experience, that would have made the sideways world a post-post-death experience. But then I'm not sure what the distinction between the experiences would be. If the island was for them to come to terms with their deaths, then what was the sideways world for? Coming to terms with their fake island experience? And if it wasn't, then what was the island experience for?

To me it seems clear that the intent was that the sideways world was the characters coming to terms with the lives they had lived, and finding connections with those they had met while alive, not in another after-death experience. And even though the notion that we were seeing a post-death experience came quickly at the end, the idea of people's consciousness continuing on after death isn't new to the last season.


----------



## getreal

To sum up the widely varying interpretations of the LOST finale, I'll paraphrase Abe Lincoln _(or P.T.Barnum or Mark Twain)_:
You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not please all of the people all of the time.


----------



## DevdogAZ

BitbyBlit said:


> It wasn't just what Christian said, though. Hurley told Ben he was a great #2. Ben apologized to Locke for killing him. Why would he apologize for killing Locke if Locke was already dead after the plane crash? And why would either of those scenes have taken place in Jack's personal dying vision? The writers drew a lot of arrows to indicate that the island experience was real, and the only post-death experience was the sideways world.
> 
> If the island was their post-death experience, that would have made the sideways world a post-post-death experience. But then I'm not sure what the distinction between the experiences would be. If the island was for them to come to terms with their deaths, then what was the sideways world for? Coming to terms with their fake island experience? And if it wasn't, then what was the island experience for?
> 
> To me it seems clear that the intent was that the sideways world was the characters coming to terms with the lives they had lived, and finding connections with those they had met while alive, not in another after-death experience. And even though the notion that we were seeing a post-death experience came quickly at the end, the idea of people's consciousness continuing on after death isn't new to the last season.


Not to mention that some of those people (the survivors of 815) actually left the Island for three years and then came back. Were we supposed to believe that their life back in the real world was still part of their post-death experience? What about the people that joined the Losties on the Island, but were not survivors of 815. Were they just imaginary from the start?

I can't see how anyone would think that, but luckily, I don't think there's anyone that really does think that.


----------



## barbeedoll

Last night on "America's Got Talent" a woman without any (talent) responded to the judges not sending her forward with the old line, "Opinions are like ***holes....everyone has got one".

For me, I think one of the best parts of the Lost finale is that we are still discussing such creative interpretations of what the finale meant this long after it aired.

To me (as other posters have suggested earlier), the real brilliance of Lost is that it has had so many of us researching obscure formulas, religions, myths, and literary works, and coming together to share ideas and exchange information. That is the real miracle of the Island in a time when we are all so fragmented in our interests, beliefs, and pastimes.

I have enhanced and solidified my own interpretation of the finale through the postings on this thread. I agree with the "Island is real and people moved on through their connectivity with the important people in their life in the church" people. But as with this TV show, the joy of forming my interpretation was in the journey.

The joy of the last episode is found in the continuing journey we are all taking together through this shared experience, just as our TV friends did in our last viewing of them.

Barbeedoll


----------



## danterner

barbeedoll said:


> The joy of the last episode is found in the continuing journey we are all taking together through this shared experience, just as our TV friends did in our last viewing of them.
> 
> Barbeedoll


I wonder how long the thread will get before we are all ready to gather at the church and move on.


----------



## BitbyBlit

barbeedoll said:


> The joy of the last episode is found in the continuing journey we are all taking together through this shared experience, just as our TV friends did in our last viewing of them.


And like the sideways world, nothing in Lost actually happened. But our viewing experience and connections to the characters were real.

Perhaps we need a Sideways Lost that allows people to experience it in the manner they would have preferred so they can be at peace with the death of Lost. 

(Come on Damon and Carlton. You know you want to do this. Everyone who liked the ending isn't going to care about your stupid integrity, and everyone else thinks you cheaped out on the ending anyway. $$$ for you + more Lost for us = win, win situation. Although, good idea to wait until after everyone's bought the DVDs. And if you call the "new show" STOL - Sideways Tale Of Lost - then technically you aren't working on more Lost.)


----------



## Anubys

I'd like a followup like BSG: The Plan...

just the idea, not the actual execution (which was as bad they could have made it without having us watch 2 hours of blue screen)...

I want Lost: The Answers


----------



## jkeegan

danterner said:


> I wonder how long the thread will get before we are all ready to gather at the church and move on.


LOL


----------



## jkeegan

BitbyBlit said:


> (Come on Damon and Carlton. You know you want to do this. Everyone who liked the ending isn't going to care about your stupid integrity, and everyone else thinks you cheaped out on the ending anyway. $$$ for you + more Lost for us = win, win situation. Although, good idea to wait until after everyone's bought the DVDs. And if you call the "new show" STOL - Sideways Tale Of Lost - then technically you aren't working on more Lost.)


Ugh.. You just scared me about another possible (horrible) interpretation of Juliete's secret about "if you unplug it then plug it back in, the candy drops down, and technically, it's legal"... What if they're saying that by pulling the plug and ending the show, they consider starting it back up again to be ok?  AfterLost, here we come.. (shiver).. Please, no... It's perfect ending where it is.


----------



## philw1776

Anubys said:


> I'd like a followup like BSG: The Plan...
> 
> just the idea, not the actual execution (which was as bad they could have made it without having us watch 2 hours of blue screen)...
> 
> I want Lost: The Answers


Great idea! You should have a statue built for you!


----------



## betts4

Amusing.

http://www.wikihow.com/Cope-when-Your-Favorite-TV-Show-Ends

I have done everything but 6 and 7.


----------



## dswallow

betts4 said:


> Amusing.
> 
> http://www.wikihow.com/Cope-when-Your-Favorite-TV-Show-Ends
> 
> I have done everything but 6 and 7.


When Lost ended, I deleted the season pass. Like really quickly. As in within 10 minutes of it having ended live. Just in case ABC decided to recap it again. Good riddance. OK, well obviously Lost wasn't my "favorite TV show". 

I don't expect to watch it again until I suffer from Alzheimer's in a big, big way. If ever.


----------



## Roadblock

danterner said:


> I wonder how long the thread will get before we are all ready to gather at the church and move on.


Who's gonna start the sideways thread?


----------



## Hunter Green

Roadblock said:


> Who's gonna start the sideways thread?


We all are, independently and collaboratively.

Or maybe only jkeegan will.

Oh, drat.


----------



## Anubys

philw1776 said:


> Great idea! You should have a statue built for you!


darn...great sig foder...unfortunately, I don't think you were sarcastic...so I can't use it


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Anubys said:


> darn...great sig foder...unfortunately, I don't think you were sarcastic...so I can't use it


Oooh, the temptation!


----------



## ct1

Roadblock said:


> Who's gonna start the sideways thread?


It's already started -- there is no 'now' there... You just can't post to it until your account gets deleted.


----------



## Anubys

ct1 said:


> It's already started -- there is no 'now' there... You just can't post to it until your account gets deleted.


note to self: do NOT get in the car with jkeegan anywhere near a body of water...do NOT cross the street if you see jkeegan in car gunning the engine...


----------



## Hoffer

Not really about the finale, but I'm posting it here anyway.

All the finale hype finally got to me. I had watched up through episode 3 of season 5. I noticed season 5 was on Netflix streaming in HD. So, I started watching the show again. I'm now up to episode 13 or so and am really liking the show again.

Whenever season 6 becomes available, I'll start up with that as well. So, hopefully by the end of the year, I'll be able to make a real post here.


----------



## Rinkdog

I am over my dislike of the finale and have attributed it to the anger I have over the fact that next January their will be nothing on TV.


----------



## miketx

I really liked the finale....nice ending. I knew they could never answer all the questions. I really liked the whole series though....but I could never ever watch it again. There were way too many seasons where the writers had no cohesive plan and episodes just rambled around...59.5 mins of ramble, .5 mins of actual plot. That happened way too much until the past two seasons.


----------



## Rinkdog

miketx said:


> I really liked the finale....nice ending. I knew they could never answer all the questions. I really liked the whole series though....but I could never ever watch it again. There were way too many seasons where the writers had no cohesive plan and episodes just rambled around...59.5 mins of ramble, .5 mins of actual plot. That happened way too much until the past two seasons.


The last season and part of the previous did feel that way at times. It was like they advance the plot to a point where all they could do was stall until the finale. We really were not told anything in the final season of value. A lot of characters we thought were important were eliminated in an abrupt and most pointless fashion. I am rewatcing on Netflix with my son since he only began watching in season 6 and I have already found a few inconsistencies. But i will take it all with a grain of salt and just remember the show for the entertaining years rather than waste my time questioning whether the writers made it up as they wen along.


----------



## philw1776

dswallow said:


> When Lost ended, I deleted the season pass. Like really quickly. As in within 10 minutes of it having ended live. Just in case ABC decided to recap it again. Good riddance. OK, well obviously Lost wasn't my "favorite TV show".
> 
> *I don't expect to watch it again until I suffer from Alzheimer's *in a big, big way. If ever.


But then you'll be totally addelpated and love it bigtime. You cursed yourself!


----------



## Church AV Guy

There is a aspect of the conclusion that continues to bother me. I agree with Rob, that it was emotionally satisfying, but intellectually unsatisfying, and with everyone saying that the show was character driven. But, what I am thinking is, the island was, in fact, a character in the show. from early on in season one, the island was talked about as if it had motivation and planning, at least it was talked about by Locke in that way. "The island brought us here," "Boone's death was a sacrifice demanded by the island," and so on. So, I fell like the one character we got almost no closure on was the island itself. If you choose to believe it wasn't the island but Jacob, then his personality wasn't developed at all, and he didn't seem to understand everything that was happening. He stated that he didn't know if the smoke monster could be killed, for example.


----------



## philw1776

Church AV Guy said:


> There is a aspect of the conclusion that continues to bother me. I agree with Rob, that it was emotionally satisfying, but intellectually unsatisfying, and with everyone saying that the show was character driven. But, what I am thinking is, *the island was, in fact, a character in the show. from early on in season one, the island was talked about as if it had motivation and planning*, at least it was talked about by Locke in that way. "The island brought us here," "Boone's death was a sacrifice demanded by the island," and so on. So, *I fell like the one character we got almost no closure on was the island itself.* If you choose to believe it wasn't the island but Jacob, then his personality wasn't developed at all, and he didn't seem to understand everything that was happening. He stated that he didn't know if the smoke monster could be killed, for example.


I have tried and failed to make that very point. The Island was a MAJOR 'character' in the show and it got neglected by the smoke and mirrors, rabbit out of a hat, all-so-clever Season 6 Sideways debacle.

Even Sideways was salvageable if they hadn't had that last 15 minutes awfull Purgatory/Limbo denoument. Had Sideways been some alternate/flawed/more stable version of the universe spawned/fractured or whatever by the Incident and the ending resolving the fracture, I'd have been happy.

Sure I enjoyed the emotional sudden realizations of all the Sideways LOSTies with their old flames (well except for Sayid & the excerable Shannon) but that too was ruined by the last 15 minutes.

The only thing that would make me happy now would be the 100th new 'cop' show with Sawyer and Miles with Kate as a fugitive tempting & testing Sawyer's police resolve.


----------



## Hunter Green

I can certainly agree that the Island was a character as much as, say, Ben was. By the end, I learned a lot about the Island, and a lot about Ben, but I didn't learn everything about the Island, or everything about Ben. I learned enough in each case; I learned the stuff I needed to learn, to have the story fit together. I don't see the problem. For those who do, I don't disagree with how you feel, I'm just sorry you didn't get what you needed from it like I did.


----------



## jkeegan

Each and every one of you, expect my "visit" to you.


----------



## betts4

I realized when talking to some (RL) friends that maybe the reason I wasn't so upset/dissapointed with the finale was that I went into it thinking there was no way they were going to answer all the questions and that the big ones were mostly answered. Who cares why the statue had 4 toes? I mean, that didn't matter that much. They did answer the questions I needed answered so I was okay with it all.


----------



## Waldorf

philw1776 said:


> Even Sideways was salvageable if they hadn't had that last 15 minutes awfull Purgatory/Limbo denoument. Had Sideways been some alternate/flawed/more stable version of the universe spawned/fractured or whatever by the Incident and the ending resolving the fracture, I'd have been happy.


When they first started having their lives "flash" before their eyes in the sideways-verse, it reminded me of an old Showtime series called Odyssey 5. I'll try not to get too deep into the rest of that plot, but the time-travel premise was that matter could not be destroyed or created, so the main characters' current consciousnesses were transported into their bodies 5 years prior to prevent an occurrence they had just witnessed.

For instance, young astronaut had a flash and woke up passed out on the floor of a college keg party with all the knowledge of what could happen over the next 5 years. However, as the series progressed, we found out there were subtle differences. (by playing the stock market with foreknowledge, your actions actually change what happened in your original timeline, for example.)

Anyhoo - at first, I was thinking they were going to that route with our Losties... have all their consciousnesses reconcile on the seemingly preferable alternate timeline which healed the rift that the incident created. The more I think about it, that would have left lots more loose ends depending on how they handled it.

That reminds me I should check out Odyssey 5 again... I don't think I ever saw all of the episodes for some reason.


----------



## BitbyBlit

I can understand people not liking getting enough answers. But I'm not sure what the big deal is about the sideways world being an after-death experience. We already knew the sideways world wasn't the original world that the characters came from.

So that left these possibilities for what the sideways world was:

1. It was a completely separate world with no connection to the original.
2. It was split off from the original world when space-time broke down. Once space-time was fixed, the original world would be restored.
3. It was the world before events were altered to become the world that the Losties came from.
4. It was the world after events were altered by the Losties.

Between these possibilities and the sideways world being an after-death experience, the after-death experience is actually the most "real". With the first three possibilities, the sideways world is effectively rendered moot, and with the last the original world is.

With how Lost actually ended, the lives and deaths from the original world still mattered. And even though the events of the sideways world were not happening in the same way as they did for the characters when they were alive, them finding connections to each other was still real. Neither world was rendered moot, and we got to see a different side of the characters. (Most especially Ben, whose redemption I don't think would have been nearly as powerful if we had not seen the better side of him.)

The flashes were always about giving us insight into the characters. The flashbacks showed us who the characters were; the flashforwards showed us where the characters were going; and the flashsideways' showed us what the characters became. It wasn't the events of the sideways world that were important so much as how the characters reacted to those events, which gave us insight into their personalities.


----------



## Church AV Guy

The statement that has been repeated here over and over again, that this was a purely character driven show is, in my opinion, incorrect. This was very much an event driven show. The events pushed the characters, not the other way around. When Locke and Boone first discovered the hatch, the whole show changed directions, and we all realized that our understanding of the island was wrong. When Locke was pounding on the hatch and the light came on, another change--the thing was inhabited. When the drawing on the blast door was revealed, when Desmond turned the key and the Swan imploded, when the donky wheel was turned, all events that drove changes in the characters.

I'm not saying tht it wasn't partially character driven, but to suggest it was ONLY character driven just makes no sense.


----------



## gchance

jkeegan said:


> Each and every one of you, expect my "visit" to you.


Thank God I get it, now I don't have to be run over or drowned by you.

Greg


----------



## Freshman JS

Church AV Guy said:


> I'm not saying tht it wasn't partially character driven, but to suggest it was ONLY character driven just makes no sense.


This is a strawman. I don't think anyone in their right mind has ever said it was ONLY character driven


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Freshman JS said:


> This is a strawman. I don't think anyone in their right mind has ever said it was ONLY character driven


Right, the problem was they carefully developed an island storyline over several seasons, then had a "final revelation" storyline in the last season (the sidewayverse) where it only became clear at the last moment that it had nothing to do with the previous storyline, meanwhile disposing of the island story in a very perfunctory manner.

My problem is that they didn't earn purgatory, they just dumped it on us out of the blue.


----------



## jkeegan

betts4 said:


> I realized when talking to some (RL) friends that maybe the reason I wasn't so upset/dissapointed with the finale was that I went into it thinking there was no way they were going to answer all the questions and that the big ones were mostly answered. Who cares why the statue had 4 toes? I mean, that didn't matter that much. They did answer the questions I needed answered so I was okay with it all.


..and, because the finale was excellent.


----------



## Delta13

jkeegan said:


> Each and every one of you, expect my "visit" to you.


Jeff, if I said that just this statement alone caused a near-death experience for me, would that be enough? Or do I still have to be dropped off a 3rd story building into some flower bushes?


----------



## TAsunder

BitbyBlit said:


> Between these possibilities and the sideways world being an after-death experience, the after-death experience is actually the most "real". With the first three possibilities, the sideways world is effectively rendered moot, and with the last the original world is.


With the last, we would in theory be seeing how things got from point A (start of story) to point B (end of main story) to point C (sideways world). With the actual ending, we saw only how things got to point A to point B, and then later we saw point C. For me, that makes it less real.



> The flashbacks showed us who the characters were; the flashforwards showed us where the characters were going; and the flashsideways' showed us what the characters became. It wasn't the events of the sideways world that were important so much as how the characters reacted to those events, which gave us insight into their personalities.


Not sure I understand what you are saying here. Many if not most of the characters were, in terms of character development, where they were before the island came into their lives. Charlie was a hopeless addict, Desmond was still doing things for Whidmore's approval, Locke still had self-hate, Sawyer still sought revenge and didn't want to let people in, etc. Are you referring to how they reacted to the flash?


----------



## jkeegan

TAsunder said:


> With the last, we would in theory be seeing how things got from point A (start of story) to point B (end of main story) to point C (sideways world). With the actual ending, we saw only how things got to point A to point B, and then later we saw point C. For me, that makes it less real.


Not a big point I'm going to make here, but the more I watch the end of the finale, the more I feel we saw A, then almost-all-of-B, then C, then another 10-15 seconds of B.

As Jack is stumbling from the log to the bamboo, at one point they stop even playing the flash sideways airplane sound.. Despite the fact that when Jack says "I died too" that Christian doesn't say "well, almost.. you're 10-15 seconds away", I think that was actually the case.. I think that once Christian opened the church door and everyone was bathed in light, Jack woke up and saw the plane fly overhead, hearing the same sound we'd heard all season for the flash sidewayses, and THEN he died.. (which lets everyone die "together" (even though they're at different chronological times) relative to the church.

So when you say we saw how things went from A to B, and then later we saw C, that's the only point I'm disagreeing with (based on very little, except what I think makes a far better story).


----------



## jkeegan

Delta13 said:


> Jeff, if I said that just this statement alone caused a near-death experience for me, would that be enough? Or do I still have to be dropped off a 3rd story building into some flower bushes?


No MacCutcheon's for you! 

No, you're still getting a visit. As for what form that will take... well that part is a surprise.


----------



## ClutchBrake

Waldorf said:


> That reminds me I should check out Odyssey 5 again... I don't think I ever saw all of the episodes for some reason.


I can tell you why...

Showtime stopped showing them. They didn't even finish out the season. I cancelled Showtime because I was so mad about it.

I believe the episodes eventually made it to On Demand and DVD.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, the problem was they carefully developed an island storyline over several seasons, then had a "final revelation" storyline in the last season (the sidewayverse) where it only became clear at the last moment that it had nothing to do with the previous storyline, meanwhile disposing of the island story in a very perfunctory manner.
> 
> My problem is that they didn't earn purgatory, they just dumped it on us out of the blue.


I think you're just pissed the sideways didn't turn out to be caused by the bomb (broken universe) like you were expecting all along. You were blindsided by the explanation because you weren't expecting it. That doesn't make it less valid overall, it only makes it less compelling for you, because of your personal expectations.

How would they have "earned purgatory?" That's a ridiculous statement. They adequately tied up the Island storyline, and gave us a full explanation for what the sidewaysverse was. I don't see what extra information people were looking for (unless it's answers to mostly irrelevant questions from previous seasons).


TAsunder said:


> Not sure I understand what you are saying here. Many if not most of the characters were, in terms of character development, where they were before the island came into their lives. Charlie was a hopeless addict, Desmond was still doing things for Whidmore's approval, Locke still had self-hate, Sawyer still sought revenge and didn't want to let people in, etc. Are you referring to how they reacted to the flash?


All the character actions in the FSW were simply to keep viewers from guessing what the ultimate explanation for the FSW was. You can't read anything into what happened to them. The writers simply set it up (starting on 815, most characters leading similar lives) to throw us off the purgatory track. I don't have any problem with that. It made the revelation at the end more interesting.


----------



## Waldorf

ClutchBrake said:


> I can tell you why...
> 
> Showtime stopped showing them. They didn't even finish out the season. I cancelled Showtime because I was so mad about it.
> 
> I believe the episodes eventually made it to On Demand and DVD.


Oh, that's lame... I didn't think subscription/premium channels were as susceptible to ratings as networks due to their model? I wonder why they didn't finish out the season.

Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled Lost denominations and interpretations.


----------



## TAsunder

DevdogAZ said:


> All the character actions in the FSW were simply to keep viewers from guessing what the ultimate explanation for the FSW was. You can't read anything into what happened to them. The writers simply set it up (starting on 815, most characters leading similar lives) to throw us off the purgatory track. I don't have any problem with that. It made the revelation at the end more interesting.


That's fine, but it is at odds with what he wrote, unless I don't understand what he was getting at in his post. Seems to me that he is saying the exact opposite...


----------



## ronsch

jkeegan said:


> Not a big point I'm going to make here, but the more I watch the end of the finale, the more I feel we saw A, then almost-all-of-B, then C, then another 10-15 seconds of B.
> 
> As Jack is stumbling from the log to the bamboo, at one point they stop even playing the flash sideways airplane sound.. Despite the fact that when Jack says "I died too" that Christian doesn't say "well, almost.. you're 10-15 seconds away", I think that was actually the case.. I think that once Christian opened the church door and everyone was bathed in light, Jack woke up and saw the plane fly overhead, hearing the same sound we'd heard all season for the flash sidewayses, and THEN he died.. (which lets everyone die "together" (even though they're at different chronological times) relative to the church.
> 
> So when you say we saw how things went from A to B, and then later we saw C, that's the only point I'm disagreeing with (based on very little, except what I think makes a far better story).


You know this has been bothering me during the course of this entire thread but I kept forgetting to post something about it. I never interpreted the Sideways transition noise as the Ajira's engine sound. I just thought it was something different, although similar, than what they used from the flash backs and flash forwards to distinguish them from each other.


----------



## Church AV Guy

ClutchBrake said:


> I can tell you why...
> 
> Showtime stopped showing them. They didn't even finish out the season. I cancelled Showtime because I was so mad about it.
> 
> I believe the episodes eventually made it to On Demand and DVD.


Actually, they were eventually all on Univeral HD or one of those channels, where I got a chance to see them all in beautiful HD. I think Sci-Fi tried to show them, but the ratings were so bad they quit, just like with Charlie Jade.


----------



## gchance

Church AV Guy said:


> Actually, they were eventually all on Univeral HD or one of those channels, where I got a chance to see them all in beautiful HD. I think Sci-Fi tried to show them, but the ratings were so bad they quit, just like with Charlie Jade.


I saw the whole series on HDNet. Fabulous show, I went into it knowing it was only one season. It had some amazing potential.

Greg


----------



## jkeegan

ronsch said:


> You know this has been bothering me during the course of this entire thread but I kept forgetting to post something about it. I never interpreted the Sideways transition noise as the Ajira's engine sound. I just thought it was something different, although similar, than what they used from the flash backs and flash forwards to distinguish them from each other.


I'd only heard about the idea here, then when I watched it again the other night and saw Ajira flying away, I had to admit it's the same sound. Definitely distinctly different than the forwards and backwards, and it definitely sounds like a plane.


----------



## stellie93

Maybe this is a nit pick, but we keep throwing around the word purgatory, when I don't think that is what it was. I'm not Catholic and I don't know much about it, but purgatory implies that you are working your way toward something. This was just a "waiting room" and it didn't seem to make any difference what you did there. Everyone went on to the next step regardless. 

In fact, Ben behaved very well in the sideways, but stayed behind, while Sayid murdered people but it was fine. Unless they're not all going to the same place. 

It seems weird to me that none of the actors except Jin have a new series lined up. Or do they and I haven't heard about it? I would think writers would be fighting over them now while their popularity is high. Or maybe no one wants to write the next show that will invariably suck compared to Lost.


----------



## ronsch

stellie93 said:


> It seems weird to me that none of the actors except Jin have a new series lined up. Or do they and I haven't heard about it? I would think writers would be fighting over them now while their popularity is high. Or maybe no one wants to write the next show that will invariably suck compared to Lost.


You mean like Juliet on V ?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I wonder if, after six years of what must have been a grueling schedule, some of them aren't happy to be unemployed for a little while?

If they have half a brain in their body, they won't _need _to work!


----------



## danterner

I recall hearing (don't recall where) that Evangeline Lilly said that she wasn't planning on continuing to pursue an acting career post-LOST.

EDIT: Found a link. Also talks about Matthew Fox's plans.


----------



## Alpinemaps

This isn't my original idea (heard it on Jay and Jack), but thought it was good, didn't see it discussed (but, maybe I'm smeeking...I haven't read the entire thread), and wanted to share.

So, we have the Oceanic 6. And Ajira 316 goes and crashes. You'd have to assume the media had a field day when they looked over the passenger log, and discovered that 5 of the Oceanic 6 were on that flight.

Ajira 316 shows up again. And on that flight is only one of the Oceanic 6. The others are dead. But...who are these other 4 people (Frank being the pilot shouldn't be a question). You've got two people (Sawyer and Claire) that were supposed to have died in the Oceanic crash. Yet, here they are. And then you've got Miles and Richard, who weren't on the original Ajira 316 manifest. Miles at least had a life previously. Richard? Maybe, maybe not. Who is this mysterious man that may not have any traceable history 'in the real world'?

Could be an interesting story to discover what happened in the aftermath of Ajira 316 reappearing.


----------



## gchance

danterner said:


> I recall hearing (don't recall where) that Evangeline Lilly said that she wasn't planning on continuing to pursue an acting career post-LOST.
> 
> EDIT: Found a link. Also talks about Matthew Fox's plans.


She was saying that originally, but the past few weeks I've heard of her new movie project.

Greg


----------



## wprager

ronsch said:


> You mean like Juliet on V ?


Or Charlie on Flashforward. Oh, wait, strike that.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Coming in 1987. LOST the computer game. Awesome. 
http://www.penneydesign.com/folio_IM_lostgame.html


----------



## jkeegan

Fool Me Twice said:


> Coming in 1987. LOST the computer game. Awesome.
> http://www.penneydesign.com/folio_IM_lostgame.html


:up:


----------



## jkeegan

Speaking of computer text adventure games, has everyone heard that there's a documentary coming out on them? (not mine, and I'm not in this, so it's not a shameless plug or anything, although I do know the guy who's writing it since I was in the BBS Documentary that he did)..

It's called Get Lamp.

Actually now that I think about it I think it'd have been cool if instead of a computer chess game in Patchy's room, it was a text adventure. Eh, maybe not.. the explicit mention of chess was good.


----------



## betts4

jkeegan said:


> ..and, because the finale was excellent.


That too. 

Terry O'Quinn has stated in local news articles here in Baltimore that he is taking a break but ultimately would love to do some live stage performances or tv or a movie....well, you get the idea. We WILL be seeing him again.


----------



## jlb

danterner said:


> I recall hearing (don't recall where) that Evangeline Lilly said that she wasn't planning on continuing to pursue an acting career post-LOST.
> 
> EDIT: Found a link. Also talks about Matthew Fox's plans.


There's a question asked by the author in that link:



> Are you sad that you won't be seeing Evangeline in anything new?


I don't know about anyone else, but I am ok seeing Evi in her old things. Like this:


----------



## Fool Me Twice

I hate it when they airbrush out her freckles, though. I like the freckles.


----------



## Anubys

Fool Me Twice said:


> I hate it when they airbrush out her freckles, though. I like the freckles.


it's strange for them to do that considering her nickname on the show from Sawyer!


----------



## scooterboy

betts4 said:


> That too.
> 
> Terry O'Quinn has stated in local news articles here in Baltimore that he is taking a break but ultimately would love to do some live stage performances or tv or a movie....well, you get the idea. We WILL be seeing him again.


I'd be pretty surprised if we didn't, since he's been in nearly 100 films and TV shows in his 30 year career.


----------



## gchance

scooterboy said:


> I'd be pretty surprised if we didn't, since he's been in nearly 100 films and TV shows in his 30 year career.


I think the difference now is that over those 30 years, being a character actor, many people simply didn't know who he was. "That guy" who you see in everything but can never place the name. In league with Charles Martin Smith, J.T. Walsh (RIP), & M. Emmet Walsh.

I could be wrong, but his name has weight now.

Greg


----------



## wprager

gchance said:


> I think the difference now is that over those 30 years, being a character actor, many people simply didn't know who he was. "That guy" who you see in everything but can never place the name. In league with Charles Martin Smith, J.T. Walsh (RIP), & M. Emmet Walsh.
> 
> I could be wrong, but his name has weight now.
> 
> Greg


His name had weight (for me) since Millennium.

ETA: actually, one of the reasons I started watching Lost was because he was in it. My dad telling me it was a good show, as well, had something to do with it (he *never* recommends shows).


----------



## danterner

jkeegan said:


> Speaking of computer text adventure games, has everyone heard that there's a documentary coming out on them? (not mine, and I'm not in this, so it's not a shameless plug or anything, although I do know the guy who's writing it since I was in the BBS Documentary that he did)..
> 
> It's called Get Lamp.
> 
> Actually now that I think about it I think it'd have been cool if instead of a computer chess game in Patchy's room, it was a text adventure. Eh, maybe not.. the explicit mention of chess was good.


Please give yourself a shameless plug, jkeegan -- I love text adventures and had no idea you were an author. Which is/are yours?


----------



## wprager

I see Jeff's popularity on IMDB is up 21&#37; this week. Probably from me just looking him up


----------



## wprager

I *loved* playing the old Adventure game on a Unix system back in the early '80s. I checked out the trailer for the documentary on YouTube. I'll definitely be interested in watching it.


----------



## madscientist

xyzzy!

plugh!


----------



## jkeegan

I was extremely pleased today that my brother in law and his wife both enjoyed the finale. It's good for Desmond to be able to run into a few people who are already awake every once in a while.


----------



## ronsch

wprager said:


> I *loved* playing the old Adventure game on a Unix system back in the early '80s. I checked out the trailer for the documentary on YouTube. I'll definitely be interested in watching it.





madscientist said:


> xyzzy!
> 
> plugh!


Larn! Still play the dos version.


----------



## betts4

gchance said:


> I think the difference now is that over those 30 years, being a character actor, many people simply didn't know who he was. "That guy" who you see in everything but can never place the name. In league with Charles Martin Smith, J.T. Walsh (RIP), & M. Emmet Walsh.
> 
> I could be wrong, but his name has weight now.
> 
> Greg


That was me. I always knew him when I saw him on screen, but was never sure from where or what.

On a side note - I was having lunch at an outside seating table in baltimore and my friend and I were chatting about LOST. From the table next to us comes the cry "oh no, please don't say what happened, I haven't seen it yet!!". And the woman tells us that she has missed the last two episodes and the finale because she was out of the country. She was just back to town a couple days ago and has been trying hard not to listen to it when it is mentioned. My friend and I finished dinner and she went off to walk the dogs. 
I stayed to talk to the woman and we discussed 5 1/2 seasons of Lost and then she asked if I liked the ending. I said that I did, but that others didn't and was also something that could grow on you. She told me that her roommate works at the Outback in Timonium and Terry and his wife came for dinner one night when she was working there. Imagine getting to serve Locke some steak and a blooming onion!!


----------



## Hoffer

I will be able to read and post my thoughts in this thread tonight. After a week long marathon, I have watched all of seasons 5 and 6. I watched 15 episodes of season 6 yesterday alone. All I have left are the final 2 episodes and I'll be watching them tonight.

I will say I've read people say that season 6 was no good, but I'm absolutely loving it.


----------



## BitbyBlit

TAsunder said:


> Not sure I understand what you are saying here. Many if not most of the characters were, in terms of character development, where they were before the island came into their lives. Charlie was a hopeless addict, Desmond was still doing things for Whidmore's approval, Locke still had self-hate, Sawyer still sought revenge and didn't want to let people in, etc. Are you referring to how they reacted to the flash?


Charlie never really cared about anything until he met Claire. (Or perhaps a better way to phrase that is everything else was meaningless compared to Claire.)

Desmond had Widmore's approval in the sideways world. If Sideways Widmore was a dead Widmore then that meant that Widmore finally approved of Desmond when he died. Even if not, however, at the very least it meant that Desmond no longer needed Widmore's approval.

Sawyer was still upset about what happened to his parents, but the fact that he hadn't found Anthony Cooper yet meant that he no longer truly wanted revenge.

Kate still wished her father was out of her life, perhaps even dead, but no longer enough to kill him herself.

Jin and Sun were willing to do anything and risk everything to be together.

Sayid was no longer the torturer he once was, but was still willing to use violence as a last resort to protect those he cared about. Nadia, despite her love for Sayid, still could not get past this. And so although they cared for each other deeply, they could not truly be together.

Hurley considered himself to be lucky instead of unlucky. He recognized in himself that his gift was his compassion for others.

Claire no longer felt alone as a mother, and because of the help Kate gave her after they left the island, was willing to raise Aaron instead of giving him up.

Jack no longer put the issues he had with his father onto himself.

Locke finally stopped blaming himself for his condition, and was willing to accept help.

Ben truly cared about someone else, and was willing to sacrifice his own gain for that person.


----------



## betts4

BitbyBlit said:


> Charlie never really cared about anything until he met Claire. (Or perhaps a better way to phrase that is everything else was meaningless compared to Claire.)
> 
> Desmond had Widmore's approval in the sideways world. If Sideways Widmore was a dead Widmore then that meant that Widmore finally approved of Desmond when he died. Even if not, however, at the very least it meant that Desmond no longer needed Widmore's approval.
> 
> Sawyer was still upset about what happened to his parents, but the fact that he hadn't found Anthony Cooper yet meant that he no longer truly wanted revenge.
> 
> Kate still wished her father was out of her life, perhaps even dead, but no longer enough to kill him herself.
> 
> Jin and Sun were willing to do anything and risk everything to be together.
> 
> Sayid was no longer the torturer he once was, but was still willing to use violence as a last resort to protect those he cared about. Nadia, despite her love for Sayid, still could not get past this. And so although they cared for each other deeply, they could not truly be together.
> 
> Hurley considered himself to be lucky instead of unlucky. He recognized in himself that his gift was his compassion for others.
> 
> Claire no longer felt alone as a mother, and because of the help Kate gave her after they left the island, was willing to raise Aaron instead of giving him up.
> 
> Jack no longer put the issues he had with his father onto himself.
> 
> Locke finally stopped blaming himself for his condition, and was willing to accept help.
> 
> Ben truly cared about someone else, and was willing to sacrifice his own gain for that person.


:up: Yes. All of this.


----------



## stellie93

Do we know that Kate didn't kill her father in the sideways?


----------



## philw1776

BitbyBlit said:


> Sawyer was still upset about what happened to his parents, but the fact that he hadn't found Anthony Cooper yet meant that he no longer truly wanted revenge.


Wait. James Ford was returning from Austrailia where he was on a secret (from his cop friends & job) looking for 'Sawyer'. How is his failure to find the con man not truly wanting revenge?


----------



## TAsunder

BitbyBlit said:


> Charlie never really cared about anything until he met Claire. (Or perhaps a better way to phrase that is everything else was meaningless compared to Claire.)


Which means he was basically the same person before his near-death experience in the sideways world as he might have been if he never landed on the island in the "real world"



> Desmond had Widmore's approval in the sideways world. If Sideways Widmore was a dead Widmore then that meant that Widmore finally approved of Desmond when he died. Even if not, however, at the very least it meant that Desmond no longer needed Widmore's approval.


Disagree. He still devoted his life to serving Widmore. Seems to me like he still sought his approval on a regular basis. Psychologically, "seeking approval" isn't a binary operation. If you get approval once it doesn't mean you are completely relieved of your burden.



> Sawyer was still upset about what happened to his parents, but the fact that he hadn't found Anthony Cooper yet meant that he no longer truly wanted revenge.


Except for the fact that he went to Australia for revenge and openly stated such.



> Kate still wished her father was out of her life, perhaps even dead, but no longer enough to kill him herself.


 Where did you discern this? Why was she on the run from the law and wanted for murder in this case? She tried to kill him and failed - killing someone else.



> Hurley considered himself to be lucky instead of unlucky. He recognized in himself that his gift was his compassion for others.


Yeah but he still didn't consider himself worthy of a woman's love.



> Claire no longer felt alone as a mother, and because of the help Kate gave her after they left the island, was willing to raise Aaron instead of giving him up.


So in other words, you are suggesting that Claire was basically the same until she connected with another Lostie for an extended period of time? Seems like you agree with me...



> Locke finally stopped blaming himself for his condition, and was willing to accept help.


 Only once Desmond intervened was this true. Before that he directly stated that he blamed himself.


----------



## Hoffer

Just finished watching the finale. I loved it. I was as close to crying as I've been in like 12 years.


----------



## jkeegan

Woohoo! Ever since I saw you watching season V on netflix on xbox live I've wondered what you'd think.


----------



## jkeegan

As was mentioned in another thread (unanswered lost questions) we do still need to reconcile the seemingly clear fact that Jacob and MiB had the ability to see so far into the future that they could plan out this complicated chain of events (MiB's - to kill Jacob, and Jacob's - to kill MiB after his own death) with the fact that Jack, when he became "like Jacob", didn't appear omniscient and he even claimed he wasn't..

Is the lighthouse the answer to that, as was suggested in that thread? Who made the lighthouse? Now that we know that MiB was good at making things (with his "special" ability to.. see how things worked? whatever ability let him make the donkey wheel be able to mix light and water to move the island).. Maybe MiB made the lighthouse to plan out his plan, then Jacob used the lighthouse to plan the rest of it?

Hmm.. I'm convinced there's something more here, but we just haven't dug it all up.

Maybe Jacob made his plan (to kill MiB) first, and MiB piggybacked on top of THAT to kill Jacob?

Or maybe their plans was made like a game, one move at a time?

Still tough to reconcile all of that with "what happened, happened"..

(Not discouraged, nor doubting the writing/story as some might here.. I'm just stuck on that part for a bit.. and basically not letting go.  )


----------



## philw1776

For me it is NOT CLEAR that the 2 Island cretins could see into the future.

Evidence against: Where did Jacob give clear prescient indicating instructions? He didn't. He was vague, and sometimes seemingly despondent.

So MIB knew from the future that shuting off the light would rob him of unkillability? NOT!

Season 6 was a hack unworthy of the writing team.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

philw1776 said:


> Season 6 was a hack unworthy of the writing team.


It sounds more like Seasons 2-5 and the island portion of 6 were a red herring unworthy of the writing team...

And that's what bothers me most about the ending. It turns most of the series into a giant red herring.


----------



## astrohip

I just now watched the finale again. I had been putting off rewatching, even though I wanted to, for fear that it wouldn't be the same. That it wouldn't have the impact it originally had. Knowing the end, how could the journey be the same?

My fears were... unfounded. It was even more moving the second time. Knowing where we're going gave an entire new dimension to the finale. So many layers of dialogue, like peeling an onion, that I see in a new light. And peeling that onion, yes... the tears did flow.

I now appreciate The End even more, and am glad this is how they decided to end the series. I'm sad our six year journey has come to an end, but sending us away with such an emotionally satisfying finale helps eases the pain.


----------



## jkeegan

philw1776 said:


> For me it is NOT CLEAR that the 2 Island cretins could see into the future.
> 
> Evidence against: Where did Jacob give clear prescient indicating instructions? He didn't. He was vague, and sometimes seemingly despondent.
> 
> So MIB knew from the future that shuting off the light would rob him of unkillability? NOT!
> 
> Season 6 was a hack unworthy of the writing team.


I'm not saying they could always see all of the future - clearly Jack could *not*. But at the very least you have to admit that Jacob saw something of the future...

1) He went to Ilana and told her to bring the body in the coffin (Locke's) to Richard. We didn't see a scene where he said those words, but she's dragging a body around after her meeting with Jacob where he told her to come to the island to protect some of them. That doesn't imply to you that he knew that there would be an Ajira plane crash and that smokey would impersonate the man in the coffin on that plane?

2) He gave Hurley a guitar case with an Ankh inside it, which inside THAT had the names of the people with them when it was actually opened... ...which was at a time when Jacob was dead and couldn't say "buy these are my friends! 3P0, tell him they need to be let go!" to Dogen, so instead the paper would be needed.

3) I think he brought Desmond to the island specifically so that he would be stuck in the hatch for 3 years so he'd become immunized against the electomagnetic radiation, so that he *could* put out the light, guessing that it was the source of all power on the island, including smokey. I think he saw further ahead than MiB (no, MiB didn't see dying, because he was so preoccupied with taking the bait and destroying the island, he didn't see ad many steps ahead as Jacob, and he lost the chess match).

4) He knew to be sitting at that particular park bench right before Locke fell out of the building window.

5) Miles said that Jacob's last thought wad that he hoped he was wrong about Ben, up until the second the knife went in. That means he wasn't wrong, which meant he was right, which meant he knew that Ben was going to stab him (and yet he didn't try to do something to escape).

As for MiB, he stitched together a time loop where Locke heard from Richard who heard from who he thought was Locke that Locke needed to leave the island and die. That plan required Locke to then move on to 1950 to impress Richard enough that he'd ever listen to Locke (or someone impersonating him) enough to go into the jungle with them at night and follow their orders. He even knew to say (while impersonating Christian) "say hello to my son for me", which was the one thing that tipped the scale in favor of Jack and then everyone else returning to the island with Locke's body.

But again, I don't think that Jacob, MiB, Jack, or Hurley always knew everything that would happen. So I think they saw the future every once in a while. Maybe Jacob/MiB used the lighthouse to do that? Or maybe they flashed while the island moved beneath their feet through time during the jumps, letting them see the future version of the island (and learn it's history, their future).

All of that having been said, I can buy MiB being clueless about the future, but not Jacob.


----------



## philw1776

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It sounds more like Seasons 2-5 and the island portion of 6 were a red herring unworthy of the writing team...
> 
> And that's what bothers me most about the ending. It turns most of the series into a giant red herring.


For years, even during the Others episodes I supported the writers and seemingly well planned their vision. This winter I bought Seasons 1-5 Blu-Ray on sale @ Amazon. But because of the way the writers chose to wrap the series, I have no desire to watch LOST again as intended. It lost its appeal to me, well except for a few scenes like Kate & Juliette wrestling in the mud, but I digress...


----------



## philw1776

jkeegan said:


> I'm not saying they could always see all of the future - clearly Jack could *not*. But *at the very least you have to admit that Jacob saw something of the future...*
> ==============
> All of that having been said, I can buy MiB being clueless about the future, but not Jacob.


Yes. Well reasoned.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

philw1776 said:


> For years, even during the Others episodes I supported the writers and seemingly well planned their vision. This winter I bought Seasons 1-5 Blu-Ray on sale @ Amazon. But because of the way the writers chose to wrap the series, I have no desire to watch LOST again as intended. It lost its appeal to me, well except for a few scenes like Kate & Juliette wrestling in the mud, but I digress...


Although I know I've been harping on the negative, I want to stress that it's still an amazing show for me. It's just that the ending dropped it on the Scale of Sheer Awesomeness® from the high 90s to maybe the low 80s. There was so much Sheer Awesomeness throughout the series, there's no way they could have flat-out ruined it. They just stopped it from being Pure Sheer Awesomeness, and reduced it to mere Mostly Sheer Awesomeness.


----------



## BitbyBlit

philw1776 said:


> Wait. James Ford was returning from Austrailia where he was on a secret (from his cop friends & job) looking for 'Sawyer'. How is his failure to find the con man not truly wanting revenge?


Because the events in the sideways world were not really happening. Sawyer didn't not find the con man any more than Jack had a kid.



stellie93 said:


> Do we know that Kate didn't kill her father in the sideways?


Not for sure. She could have been lying, but I think her claim of innocence was meant to be taken as truth, and a sign that if she had had a second chance, she would not have killed him.

As far as some of the characters who seemed to have changed within the sideways world, there are some different ways to interpret that.

If we go with jkeegan's idea that the people officially all died when they were enveloped in the light at the church, and the sideways world was the characters transitioning into death, then the people we saw changing in the sideways world were those who weren't at peace with certain situations until the final moments before they died.

So under this interpretation, Charlie, as he was dying, regretted everything in his life except for meeting Claire.

Another interpretation, which is one I'm leaning towards, is that the changes were meant to highlight who the characters became. The events of the sideways world were meant to communicate to us the essence of the characters in a linear fashion.

If you imagine the souls of the characters as being mp3s, you can open the mp3s in a sound editor, and see them in their entirety. Now, if we could simply look at the sound waves and understand what sounds they would make, we could instantly know the entire files. But since we can't, we need to play them linearly through speakers to understand them.

Since the sideways world was a timeless world, I interpret the events as being given time and manifestation in a similar manner as mp3s are giving time and manifestation through our speakers.

Under this interpration, Claire getting help from Kate when her adoption fell through in the sideways world wasn't meant to communicate that she actually needed help in the sideways world. Instead, it was meant to communicate that support from Kate was what had allowed her to be willing to raise Aaron.


----------



## TAsunder

Well, I suppose your idea actually makes sense with this latest clarification. It's rather out there and I don't really agree with the interpretation, but at least I understand it now.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

A little more on what the epilogue will cover.



Spoiler



"It will address some of the issues, like the food drops, and it will deal with what happened on the island after Hurley took over and how he handled things," Garcia reveals of the DVD bonus feature he shot. "It will give you a taste of what took place after Hurley took over as the new number one. There's a little epilogue thing going on with the DVD."

That little epilogue will be available to fans when Lost: The Complete Collection is released on DVD and Blu-ray August 24.

Inside sources also told me that Walt (Malcolm David Kelley) will be shown in the bonus material. "We'll find out what happens to Walt," says the insider. But when asked who else he worked with, Jorge replied coyly: "There are other people in it, but I'm not going to tell you who." Hmmm!

Read more: http://uk.eonline.com/uberblog/watc...arcia_dishes_on_secret_dvd.html#ixzz0qIel7rpG


----------



## philw1776

BitbyBlit said:


> Because the events in the sideways world were not really happening. Sawyer didn't not find the con man any more than Jack had a kid.


Huh? By THAT reasoning then ANY of the many conclusions you have posted about the Sideways characters are bogus & irrelevent.


----------



## betts4

Fool Me Twice said:


> A little more on what the epilogue will cover.


This sounds like fun!


----------



## BitbyBlit

philw1776 said:


> Huh? By THAT reasoning then ANY of the many conclusions you have posted about the Sideways characters are bogus & irrelevent.


The events were not real, but the characters were. If Sawyer couldn't find the con man in the living world, there could be physical limitations preventing that from happening. But in the sideways world, the only thing preventing Sawyer from finding the con man was himself.

Even in the living world people sometimes subconsciously sabotage their own plans when deep down inside they don't really want the goals they appear to want to accomplish on the surface.


----------



## TAsunder

BitbyBlit said:


> The events were not real, but the characters were. If Sawyer couldn't find the con man in the living world, there could be physical limitations preventing that from happening. But in the sideways world, the only thing preventing Sawyer from finding the con man was himself.
> 
> Even in the living world people sometimes subconsciously sabotage their own plans when deep down inside they don't really want the goals they appear to want to accomplish on the surface.


They didn't explicitly state how the sideways world worked. So we don't know for sure that it was exclusively sawyer in control of sawyer's story in the sideways world or sawyer's "soul" or whatever preventing him from succeeding. We only know that collectively they supposedly "created" the sideways world.


----------



## GaryGnu

I have been trying to catch up on this thread and I just cannot. I am only on page 20! So if anyone mentioned this already I apologize.

If all these people died at different times and at different ages, why, in the church, did they all look like they did when we knew them? Shouldn't some of them have had gray hair, some of them bald, some fatter, older, blah blah blah ?


----------



## philw1776

GaryGnu said:


> I have been trying to catch up on this thread and I just cannot. I am only on page 20! So if anyone mentioned this already I apologize.
> 
> If all these people died at different times and at different ages, why, in the church, did they all look like they did when we knew them? Shouldn't some of them have had gray hair, some of them bald, some fatter, older, blah blah blah ?


Uh, it's a fantasy. They're all dead and for story purposes the writers had them appear restored as they did around the time they left the Island, dead or alive. Makes story sense since they were all there because of the shared Island experience in their past lives.

As said 450 times here, time does not exist in any conventional sense in the Sideways universe.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

philw1776 said:


> Uh, it's a fantasy. They're all dead and for story purposes the writers had them appear restored as they did around the time they left the Island, dead or alive. Makes story sense since they were all there because of the shared Island experience in their past lives.


Technically, the way they looked when they _arrived _on the island...for whatever reason, the Sidewaysverse starts with Flight 815 not crashing on the island.


----------



## philw1776

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Technically, the way they looked when they _arrived _on the island...for whatever reason, the Sidewaysverse starts with Flight 815 not crashing on the island.


Actually not. Remember all the comments here about how much the various actors have aged over the 6 years?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

philw1776 said:


> Actually not. Remember all the comments here about how much the various actors have aged over the 6 years?


Which is why I said "technically"!


----------



## Hunter Green

Plus some of them had stigmata of their events on the island, and found them puzzling, most notably Jack with his gut stab wound and neck bleeding.


----------



## BitbyBlit

TAsunder said:


> They didn't explicitly state how the sideways world worked. So we don't know for sure that it was exclusively sawyer in control of sawyer's story in the sideways world or sawyer's "soul" or whatever preventing him from succeeding. We only know that collectively they supposedly "created" the sideways world.


Right. That's just my interpretation of what was going on since we don't know for sure how the sideways world worked.

If the world was more of a virtual world, then the characters could have set things in motion, and after that things played out more naturally, meaning Sawyer's consciousness didn't have any control over whether or not he found Cooper. I disagree with that interpretation, but it's a possibility.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Technically, the way they looked when they _arrived _on the island...for whatever reason, the Sidewaysverse starts with Flight 815 not crashing on the island.


Well, it started for us with that. But I'm not sure there was a "start" for the characters. And if there was, I think it would have to have been earlier since things from the past like Jack's surgery and Ben and his father leaving the island were different.


----------



## betts4

After all these pages, I may be smeeking. But -

Thinking about the sideways world and the differences there. One was the dad's were a lot more pleasant - widmore, miles' dad, locke's dad and such. However, Sun's father was still someone to be worried about. I don't remember if Sawyer's dad or the real sawyer was mentioned. And Kates's stepdad was still icky....I think. 

Anyway, for me, it's the mark of a great show when I am still thinking about it.


----------



## gchance

Michael Emerson has explained the finale in 14 words. Seriously.



> Poor Michael "Ben Linus" Emerson is still answering questions about the Lost finale, which despite many clarifications continues to confuse a lot of people. If you're one of them, read on and all will become clear. If you haven't seen the Lost finale yet, go away, don't read this!
> 
> "Everybody was dead, but the plane really crashed, everything on the island really happened."
> 
> You can't put it much more simply than that! He also said:
> 
> "It's such a good finale, you know, humane and soulful. The antechamber to the afterlife. It's what people fantasize about."


I can see the responses now. "Oh, well that's his interpretation, of course."

Watch the video, the last line is funny. To me anyway. 

Greg


----------



## Fool Me Twice

Jack and Locke battle as Jedi.

http://www.cracked.com/video_18190_lost-wars-because-adding-jedis-can-fix-anything.html


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Fool Me Twice said:


> Jack and Locke battle as Jedi.
> 
> http://www.cracked.com/video_18190_lost-wars-because-adding-jedis-can-fix-anything.html


It's kind of scary how much that works...


----------



## betts4

Fool Me Twice said:


> Jack and Locke battle as Jedi.
> 
> http://www.cracked.com/video_18190_lost-wars-because-adding-jedis-can-fix-anything.html


Oh yuck. Sorry. I had to stop half way through. It could have been done better maybe but oh yuck my eyes are burning. And I say this as a big SW and LOST fan.


----------



## Legion




----------



## Alpinemaps

While I appreciate Jonah's work, I have to disagree with the placement of some of the stuff. 

I'm a fellow cartographer, user the software he uses, and he and I exhibit our stuff at the same conference. Having said that, I think it's a great looking map.


----------



## Anubys

Alpinemaps said:


> While I appreciate Jonah's work, I have to disagree with the placement of some of the stuff.
> 
> I'm a fellow cartographer, user the software he uses, and he and I exhibit our stuff at the same conference. Having said that, I think it's a great looking map.


I'd love to see your version...


----------



## Alpinemaps

Anubys said:


> I'd love to see your version...


Wish I had time. I really do respect his work, and think, cartographically speaking, it's an excellent map. Very nicely put together - great visuals, great colors. I saw him exhibit his map from a couple of years ago at our conference (The ESRI International User Conference).

The Conference is for users of GIS (Geographic Information Systems), and is really geared to 'reality'. GIS is used to produce maps for city, counties, states, federal agencies. It's much more than just maps, but it's easiest to say 'we make maps'.

It's unusual to find someone working on maps of fictitious places, because there's no 'reality' to ground our work in. (I've been working on a map of a fictitious place - I'd rather not say which place, though - for a couple of years now). It takes a lot of time and energy to produce these - it's not something done in Illustrator or Photoshop.

He mentions the trouble of trying to place things when no real geography is given, and the time to get to certain places seems short sometimes, and long other times. And I can certainly see why.

I guess I disagree with a couple of things, and maybe it's because of the same difficulties he ran into.

I don't like where the Black Rock is placed, in comparison to Tawaret. The vegetation (green area) running down the middle implies a significant change in topography (big hilly mountains). Plus, with the radio tower not far from Tawaret, that means the Black Rock went over quite a bit of mountains to get to where it is. (I do agree it needs to be decently close to Rousseau's camp, though.

Speaking of Rousseau - that's a long way from where the French Camp is to where she ended up. I didn't feel like she went far, but I guess she did?

I don't know about the Temple. It seems like it was a good distance away from Dharmaville. That seems too close to me.

The lighthouse - I know what Hurley said in the show. But, at the same time - the map implies that it's been passed by at least twice - once by Sayid (in Season 1, before he stumbles upon Rousseau) and then by the Taillies.

I'm not sure about the placement of the Others/Raft incident (Walt!!!). The Raft would have had to pass by Tawaret. And then they would have had to ended up drifting way over to the where the Taillies were.

Geographically, I do disagree with the placement of the church vs 815 camp. I physically visited the set, and if you're looking at the beach, from the water, it was to the right. I'd swear that was how it was depicted on the show, too.

Again - don't get me wrong. I think he did a fantastic job. I wish I had the time to dedicate to this. And I am, in no fashion, putting down his work. I really respect his efforts. Cartographically, I like his presentation a lot. I'll be curious to see if the Lost Encyclopedia has a map in it, and how it compares. I just don't know that I'd agree with where he placed everything. (And don't know that I'd have a good answer, either)


----------



## betts4

I will say I really loved the map, but if I was doing it, I would have put some things in other spots. Some of those choices just don't feel right to me. Maybe I could understand better by seeing the whole thing with all the explanations that are written around it. I think there should have been more vegatation shown around the camp. Also, that Dharmaville (I guess the barracks here) would have had Hydra closer to it. People were always jumping in a boat, kyack whatever and rowing on out to it, it should be on the same side of the island as the statue and such.


----------



## wprager

You'd figure there would be a rough map in the show runners' "bible". Maybe they could pass that along to Jonah and he could take it from there. Too bad that will probably never happen (but if some of TPTB are reading this, hey, how about it?)


----------



## DevdogAZ

I don't like how small and close Hydra Island is to the main Island. While I agree that Hydra is smaller than the main Island, it wasn't that small in comparison. And I think there are at least a couple miles of ocean between the two islands. On the western side of Maui, you can see Molokai and Lanai very well, but they're quite a ways away. I always felt like Hydra was anywhere from 3-10 miles away, not 1/3 mile, as his map seems to indicate.


----------



## Alpinemaps

betts4 said:


> Also, that Dharmaville (I guess the barracks here) would have had Hydra closer to it. People were always jumping in a boat, kyack whatever and rowing on out to it, it should be on the same side of the island as the statue and such.


Thank you! That was the other thing I failed to mention. I felt like Hydra island was a lot closer to Dharmaville than it's depicted on this map. And it little bit farther away.



Anubys said:


> I'd love to see your version...


And I know you were being serious in your question, and not poking fun/daring me. I really am a professional cartographer (just like Jonas is), but, sadly, I do have a day job and a life. Because, trust me - I would *love* to create this map myself. I just don't have the time to do it. Not because I don't have the skill. My maps have been on TV, published by National Geographic, won awards, etc.

At work, I even joke that because I'm middle management these days, they don't let me make maps anymore. I only get to ask my staff to do them, and then all I get to do is make suggestions on how to improve them. I don't get to make them any more.


----------



## stiffi

Did anybody see Jimmy Kimmels "Un-necessary Censorship" bit the night before the finale. OMG, one of the funniest things I've seen in years. Try to Youtube it, or see if ABC still has that episode on the website. 

I can't do it justice, but it goes like this. They went and found scenes throughout the series where a character said something that began with the letter "F" and then bleeped it out. So, it sounds as if they are saying the "F Word" in your head. I don't know why, but your mind automatically fills in that word as you listen to it. The result is, it sounds like that characters are saying that word in all kinds of crazy places.

They had the Actor who plays Bernard in the audience and even he was in stitches. You owe it to yourself to watch it.


----------



## gchance

I think it was posted earlier in this thread, stiffi.

"Shh! I &&#37;[email protected] your son's dog." - Locke

Greg


----------



## Philosofy

I haven't read this thread, but I just dreamt that I watched an epilogue, with Hugo and Ben on the Island. It involved cameos from the Ghost Whisperer, the Justice League of America, and other friends of mine. The true boss' of the Island were the Guardians of the Galaxy. It was pretty vivid, pretty weird, and I wish I could remember all of it. Of course, it really didn't explain anything.


----------



## dagojr

Philosofy said:


> I haven't read this thread, but I just dreamt that I watched an epilogue, with Hugo and Ben on the Island. It involved cameos from the Ghost Whisperer, the Justice League of America, and other friends of mine. The true boss' of the Island were the Guardians of the Galaxy. It was pretty vivid, pretty weird, and I wish I could remember all of it. Of course, it really didn't explain anything.


Huh?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

dagojr said:


> Huh?


"I just dreamt..."


----------



## danterner

Philosofy said:


> I haven't read this thread, but I just dreamt that I watched an epilogue, with Hugo and Ben on the Island. It involved cameos from the Ghost Whisperer, the Justice League of America, and other friends of mine. The true boss' of the Island were the Guardians of the Galaxy. It was pretty vivid, pretty weird, and I wish I could remember all of it. Of course, it really didn't explain anything.


There are more things in heaven and earth, Philosofy,
Than are dreamt of in your Horatio.

Wait. That's not right...


----------



## stellie93

I just finished a Stephen King book, Cell, and it reminded me of Lost. Not that the plot was anything like it, but it never explained exactly what happened or why, and the way things progressed really didn't make much sense, but....it was an awesome book. I couldn't put it down. The characters were well developed and the storytelling put you right there in the time and place. The trip is more important than looking back at the overall outline, and judging it. Of course, if you could have both......


----------



## NYHeel

This was probably posted somewhere here but I didn't see it and thought it was interesting. 

Post by someone who worked in the writers room for LOST, from DARKUFO:

First 
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with peoples heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a Protector. Jacob wasnt the first, Hurley wont be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him  even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacobs plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldnt do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didnt take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma  which Im not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by corrupting Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Bens off-island activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the Others killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because thats what the MIB wanted. And what he couldnt do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIBs corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? Thats a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still  Dharmas purpose is not pointless or even vague. Hell, its pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his candidates (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of candidates through the decades and letting them choose which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didnt. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector  I know thats how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they wont answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life hed always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which well get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on 

Now

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least  because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writers room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that were all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though its not exactly the best word). But these people were linked to are with us duing the most important moments of our lives as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. Its loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this sideways world where they exist in purgatory until they are awakened and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the shows concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own Sideways purgatory with their soulmates throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. Thats a beautiful notion. Even if you arent religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

Its a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events  not JUST because of Jacob. But because thats what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith  and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought thats THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writers took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways purgatory with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasnt allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died  some before Jack, some years later. In Hurleys case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are awakened and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who werent in the chuch  basically everyone who wasnt in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, heres where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. Its possible that those links arent people from the island but from their other life (Annas parnter, the guy she shot  Roussous husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didnt go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben cant move on yet because he hasnt connected with the people he needs to. Its going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurleys number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. Its really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more behind the scenes note: the reason Bens not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for early Season 1,2 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didnt believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. Its pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church  but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church  and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder  the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJs ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. Ive been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that Ive loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spiritual questions that most shows dont touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story  even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Yes, that was already posted and discussed in this thread.


----------



## NYHeel

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, that was already posted and discussed in this thread.


Sorry about that. Did a search but I didn't go down far enough.


----------



## DevdogAZ

NYHeel said:


> Sorry about that. Did a search but I didn't go down far enough.


No problem. I don't care about the smeek. I just thought you might be interested in the ensuing discussion, so that's why I pointed you to it.


----------



## Steveknj

Thanks for reposting that. I'm still not sure I like what the show was ultimately about, but it was a fun ride, and I'm rewatching S1 right now looking for clues to the utlimate puzzle.


----------



## wprager

Steveknj said:


> Thanks for reposting that. I'm still not sure I like what the show was ultimately about, but it was a fun ride, and I'm rewatching S1 right now looking for clues to the utlimate puzzle.


Me too! Watching it with my oldest (who is going on 14).


----------



## Legion

In case you were looking for more Lost.........

http://io9.com/5597853/the-last-lost-spoilers-youll-ever-read-or-not-if-you-want-to-stay-pure


----------



## BitbyBlit

Happy Lost: The Complete Collection delivery day!


----------



## Steveknj

BitbyBlit said:


> Happy Lost: The Complete Collection delivery day!


Still debating whether to buy this or not. $199 is a big nut to lay out, considering I have S1-5 on DVD already. Might just go for S6 on BD and go from there. Maybe Netflix any special discs that come with the complete set and watch them that way.


----------



## Fahtrim

this thread needs to die, sad resurrection of crappy episode


----------



## JYoung

Fahtrim said:


> this thread needs to die, sad resurrection of crappy episode


This should help:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/profile.php?do=ignorethread&threadid=449361&forumid=31


----------



## nickels

Legion said:


> In case you were looking for more Lost.........
> 
> http://io9.com/5597853/the-last-lost-spoilers-youll-ever-read-or-not-if-you-want-to-stay-pure


From what I saw, much of what is in that spoiler was not in the 12 minute clip. Makes me wish they spun off this story into a new show. I'd watch it!


----------



## astrohip

Fahtrim said:


> this thread needs to die, sad resurrection of crappy episode


I just rewatched the finale a couple weeks ago. First time since it aired.

It's just as moving the second time. Maybe even more so, now that I know what they are headed towards. I had feared that as time distanced me from the show, the finale would feel empty, shallow. But nope. Still moving.

YMMV.


----------



## Philosofy

I almost resurrected this thread the other day. The reason I was unsatisfied with the finale isn't that all the questions weren't answered. It just felt like the answers were never figured out. Great literature, like Tolkein and Frank Herbert's Dune (and Cameron's Avatar) give us a glimpse of a universe that seems like it is all figured out. In JRR Tolkiens case, it was figured out. The work that went into the back story, even though it wasn't shown, had an effect on the quality of the story. Up until the very end, Lost had that feel. But then, with the resolution we were given, it felt like it didn't hold up. Kind of like Battlestar Galactica on a smaller scale.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I don't think it's so much that the answers were never figured out. I believe them when they say they had the answers from the beginning.

The problem is, the answers weren't to the questions they had spent the last several seasons asking. What was important to them had almost nothing to do with the vast majority of the show's storylines.


----------



## wprager

Ah, that reminds me -- my poor parents were on a cruise when the finale aired, and they have not yet seen it. I'll have to let them know to check their local video store.


----------



## stiffi

wprager said:


> Ah, that reminds me -- my poor parents were on a cruise when the finale aired, and they have not yet seen it. I'll have to let them know to check their local video store.


Yeah, that's a shame. I wish I could have traded my watching the show live, followed by 3 more days of work, for being on a cruise


----------



## JYoung

wprager said:


> Ah, that reminds me -- my poor parents were on a cruise when the finale aired, and they have not yet seen it. I'll have to let them know to check their local video store.


I've heard of this amazing device that records your tv shows while you're away with very little intervention from the user.

I can't remember the name of it though.....


----------



## Johnny Dancing

I've been waiting for this. I have added the complete Blu-ray set to my Amazon Wishlist. I won't rewatch the entire show until next summer when I have the time to devote to it over two months.


----------



## aindik

If someone has a link on Netflix to the bonus disc, please post it. All I could see to add to my queue are the discs with the episodes on them.


----------



## rhuntington3

Fahtrim said:


> this thread needs to die, sad resurrection of crappy episode


Why not just add this thread to your ignore list? Then you'll never see it again.


----------



## JYoung

iTunes just downloaded a new Geronimo Jack's Beard podcast.

I guess Jorge Garcia had a few more things to say.


----------



## aindik

JYoung said:


> iTunes just downloaded a new Geronimo Jack's Beard podcast.
> 
> I guess Jorge Garcia had a few more things to say.


Not much "there" there. They answered a couple of question, told a few personal anecdotes, and played an outtakes and highlights package.

The one interesting reveal was about a script change that was made that required them to edit a bunch of podcasts.

(I don't know if there's such a thing as LOST spoilers anymore in a thread about the finale, but I'll tag these anyway).



Spoiler



Apparently in the original script, Ilana was Jacob's daughter. The producers changed it late in the process to him being "like a father" to her. Obviously Ilana being Jacob's daughter would have opened up a whole line of questioning about who her mother was.



They were also ready to reveal who shot at the people in the canoe, which I think was a scene that was filmed and then cut. Then they actually forgot who it was. 



Spoiler



Then they think they kind of remember that it was Ben and Locke/MIB shooting at the canoe, which had time traveling real-Locke in it. But then they didn't understand why MIB would want to kill John Locke.


----------



## Fahtrim

rhuntington3 said:


> Why not just add this thread to your ignore list? Then you'll never see it again.


Let me threadcrap and complain about horrible writing in peace!


----------



## DevdogAZ

aindik said:


> Not much "there" there. They answered a couple of question, told a few personal anecdotes, and played an outtakes and highlights package.
> 
> The one interesting reveal was about a script change that was made that required them to edit a bunch of podcasts.
> 
> (I don't know if there's such a thing as LOST spoilers anymore in a thread about the finale, but I'll tag these anyway).
> 
> They were also ready to reveal who shot at the people in the canoe, which I think was a scene that was filmed and then cut. Then they actually forgot who it was.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Then they think they kind of remember that it was Ben and Locke/MIB shooting at the canoe, which had time traveling real-Locke in it. But then they didn't understand why MIB would want to kill John Locke.


In an interview with Alan Sepinwall, Cuse and Lindelof said they definitely know who was in the other canoe shooting at the first canoe, but simply couldn't make it work in the final season to show it from the other side. It would have been interesting to see how they depicted what your spoiler says.


----------



## WO312

aindik said:


> If someone has a link on Netflix to the bonus disc, please post it. All I could see to add to my queue are the discs with the episodes on them.


The bonus features are on disc 5. Ep 16 + bonus features. I just picked it up at Blockbuster.


----------



## astrohip

It was one year ago tonight . . .


----------



## jkeegan

I miss Lost.


----------



## gchance

There's a #WeHaveToGoBack hashtag on Twitter today, initiated by Damon Lindelof. Some of the funnier ones I saw earlier today, starting with one from Damon himself:



> @DamonLindelof When I say I have no regrets, I'm not being entirely truthful. Sigh. That beard. That accursed beard. #WeHaveToGoBack





> @BenryMadeMeHam: #Darlton will forever live on in our hearts. As will Ezra James Sharkington. @DamonLindelof @CarltonCuse #WeHaveToGoBack





> @CarltonCuse Thank you, all of you, for all your love today on our one year finale anniversary. It's really awesome.


Greg


----------



## jkeegan

Had to go watch this again, at least for the repeated "we have to go back!"s in it:


----------



## gchance




----------



## betts4

Thanks for bumping. I miss LOST. Nothing has come close.


----------



## sushikitten

betts4 said:


> Thanks for bumping. I miss LOST. Nothing has come close.


Exactly. I didn't like the ending but I still really miss it.


----------



## wprager

I'm on my second re-watch. First time was with my oldest, this time with him and his younger brother. In a few years I'll do it all over again with the girls. We just finished S1 on Sunday night by watching three episodes (2 hours finale and 1st episode of S2) while my parents were visiting.

Yeah, I miss it.


----------



## Jstkiddn

wprager said:


> I'm on my second re-watch. First time was with my oldest, this time with him and his younger brother. In a few years I'll do it all over again with the girls. We just finished S1 on Sunday night by watching three episodes (2 hours finale and 1st episode of S2) while my parents were visiting.
> 
> Yeah, I miss it.


If you don't mind me asking....what age are/were the kids that you watched with? I'd like to watch with my daughter someday, but not sure if she's old enough to appreciate it yet.


----------



## astrohip

And if you don't mind me asking... how is LOST on a second viewing? Do you pick up things you totally missed the first time? Are the characters different, knowing what you know about them? Is the story still fresh, or more enjoyable, or less?

I've never watched an entire series more than once. I don't even watch reruns. All my SPs are FRO. I did watch the final LOST (which is STILL on my TiVo) a few months ago, and it was just as moving as the first time. But other than that, I don't think I've ever rewatched another episode.


----------



## jkeegan

astrohip said:


> I did watch the final LOST (which is STILL on my TiVo) a few months ago, and it was just as moving as the first time. But other than that, I don't think I've ever rewatched another episode.


I just recently had to bite the bullet and delete the finale from my TiVo, as it had died and I needed to move to a new drive (and I was at the "it's way easier at this point to lose all video" stage). My only justification was that I have it on DVD.

I hope someday to go through all of the seasons of Lost with my kids.. I wonder if that'll happen though - there are so many shows to watch that we haven't watched yet - time is expensive.


----------



## whitson77

If only they gave it the ending it deserved. Seinfeld-eske Fail...


----------



## mmilton80

whitson77 said:


> If only they gave it the ending it deserved. Seinfeld-eske Fail...


Wow. Larry David would not be happy with you.


----------



## rondotcom

whitson77 said:


> If only they gave it the ending it deserved. Seinfeld-eske Fail...


If "LOST" watchers were art critics:

Having finally seen "Mona Lisa" all I can say is what a bag of suck that was. They never answered the question of what she was smiling at or even if she WAS smiling. I mean that the biggest mystery of the painting and DaVinci doesn't even address it! I expected so much more from a painter of his reputation. I feel that he let all of his fans (especially me) down with this twisted, horrible, ill-conceived pile of poop.


----------



## Steveknj

jkeegan said:


> I just recently had to bite the bullet and delete the finale from my TiVo, as it had died and I needed to move to a new drive (and I was at the "it's way easier at this point to lose all video" stage). My only justification was that I have it on DVD.
> 
> I hope someday to go through all of the seasons of Lost with my kids.. I wonder if that'll happen though - there are so many shows to watch that we haven't watched yet - time is expensive.


That's exactly my situation. I have the last 4 episodes on my DVR (and I also have the DVDs/BD for all the seasons), and I keep planning on rewatching the entire series, but I looked at my current backlog of shows and movies and I don't see how I could get to it before the fall season starts back up again and the cycle continues.


----------



## latrobe7

I think fan reaction to the Seinfeld finale was much more universal than it was to the LOST finale. While there are those who were/are passionate in their disappointment, I think most LOST fans liked, or were at least cool with, the finale. My own perception is that about 50% really liked it, 30% were kind of "Meh. It was OK.", 15% "This sucked, way to fumble it right at the end!", and 5% "I've wasted 6 years of my life!" I don't recall very many people liking the Seinfeld finale. My recollection is that almost everyone felt that it didn't work. Even those who "got it" didn't think it lived up to the quality of the rest of the series.


----------



## Steveknj

whitson77 said:


> If only they gave it the ending it deserved. Seinfeld-eske Fail...


Funny thing about both finales (Lost and Seinfeld), with the passage of time, I like them more and more....I've seen the Seinfeld finale quite a few times on re-runs and there are scenes in that, that are classic Seinfeld, especially the courtroom stuff (before, during and after). So, while it's not the best episode, there are really good things in it. Same can be said for Lost. I think the problem with the Lost ending, is it wasn't the one we really wanted. But when you look back on it, it was really a good ending.


----------



## DevdogAZ

latrobe7 said:


> I think fan reaction to the Seinfeld finale was much more universal than it was to the LOST finale. While there are those who were/are passionate in their disappointment, I think most LOST fans liked, or were at least cool with, the finale. My own perception is that about 50% really liked it, 30% were kind of "Meh. It was OK.", 15% "This sucked, way to fumble it right at the end!", and 5% "I've wasted 6 years of my life!" I don't recall very many people liking the Seinfeld finale. My recollection is that almost everyone felt that it didn't work. Even those who "got it" didn't think it lived up to the quality of the rest of the series.


This. Count me in the 50% that really liked it. I didn't love it. I wish they would have explained a little more and not wasted so much of the final season on the Temple, but overall, I was satisfied and really liked it.


----------



## Steveknj

DevdogAZ said:


> This. Count me in the 50% that really liked it. I didn't love it. I wish they would have explained a little more and not wasted so much of the final season on the Temple, but overall, I was satisfied and really liked it.


To me, the problem wasn't the finale, but how the final season played out. I was never a big fan of the Jacob/Man In Black plot thread as I felt it seemed to take away from five years of story telling and made a lot of it feel meaningless (which is why I want to re-watch and see if in hindsight it was more meaningful than it seemed). But in the context of how the last season played out, I thought the finale was good, even if it didn't answer all the questions. (I'm still not sure to this day why Whitmore had such a vendetta against the Island and where he fit in with Jacob's plan)


----------



## betts4

astrohip said:


> And if you don't mind me asking... how is LOST on a second viewing? Do you pick up things you totally missed the first time? Are the characters different, knowing what you know about them? Is the story still fresh, or more enjoyable, or less?


I love second viewings of shows. Sometimes I watch them 3 times. It really does help me pick up stuff I missed and pick up stuff that is discussed here. I think with LOST I was so hyped to watch it each week that I flew thru it and seeing it again helps.



DevdogAZ said:


> This. Count me in the 50% that really liked it. I didn't love it. I wish they would have explained a little more and not wasted so much of the final season on the Temple, but overall, I was satisfied and really liked it.


Count me in the 50% that really liked it.


----------



## jkeegan

I really liked the Lost finale, and I even liked the Seinfeld finale (although I did feel that they were a bit too openly outwardly mean in the Seinfeld finale than they usually were).

New season of Curb Your Enthusiasm coming up! Woohoo!


----------



## JYoung

Steveknj said:


> (I'm still not sure to this day why Whitmore had such a vendetta against the Island and where he fit in with Jacob's plan)


Whitmore was pissed off because Ben kicked him off the Island.

Count me in the camp that was extremely satisfied with the Lost finale.


----------



## Bryanmc

I liked half of the LOST finale, and as a result ended up liking half of the final season.

The island stuff in the finale was awesome, great storytelling and drama. The resolution of "purgatory" or whatever you want to call it was stupid. And the worst of it is it makes the entire season half worthless. Every scene from "purgatory" ultimately is of no importance and is worthless when it comes to the story. Upon subsequent viewings you might as well just fast forward through all those flashes during the entire season.


----------



## Alfer

wprager said:


> I'm on my second re-watch. First time was with my oldest, this time with him and his younger brother. In a few years I'll do it all over again with the girls. We just finished S1 on Sunday night by watching three episodes (2 hours finale and 1st episode of S2) while my parents were visiting.
> 
> Yeah, I miss it.


Man there's no WAY I could sit through this show again...and I LOVED the show from day 1.

I guess I'm like some others in that one time is usually enough for me for most (not all) serial shows like this one.

Now I can re-watch shows like Seinfeld etc over and over again and still enjoy them, but watching from beginning to end a multi season drama like LOST just doesn't excite me at all.


----------



## ElJay

Save the burning L-1011 from Season 1 and a handful of characters, I've forgotten almost everything about this show already.


----------



## rkallerud

+1

My thoughts exactly.



Bryanmc said:


> I liked half of the LOST finale, and as a result ended up liking half of the final season.
> 
> The island stuff in the finale was awesome, great storytelling and drama. The resolution of "purgatory" or whatever you want to call it was stupid. And the worst of it is it makes the entire season half worthless. Every scene from "purgatory" ultimately is of no importance and is worthless when it comes to the story. Upon subsequent viewings you might as well just fast forward through all those flashes during the entire season.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

I was definitely among the 50% who really liked it. In fact, I loved it. I have a hard time imagining how else it could have gone that wouldn't have been so exposition-heavy that it would have ruined the story for everyone, not just the 20% or so who hated it. I understand the complaints about The Matrixatory, but it was a way to build narrative suspense, while at the same time give the characters a chance to experience a life they never had, one that was in most cases better than their "real" life.


----------



## madscientist

Jstkiddn said:


> If you don't mind me asking....what age are/were the kids that you watched with? I'd like to watch with my daughter someday, but not sure if she's old enough to appreciate it yet.


I watched it with my kids starting last spring, over the summer and into the fall when the last season was out on bluray. My kids were 12 and 14 and had no problems following it.



astrohip said:


> And if you don't mind me asking... how is LOST on a second viewing? Do you pick up things you totally missed the first time? Are the characters different, knowing what you know about them? Is the story still fresh, or more enjoyable, or less?


I'm not sure about watching it by myself, but watching it with people who'd never seen it before was actually a lot of fun. You do pick up on other things now that you know how the plot goes and it's fun to see that look of confusion 



DreadPirateRob said:


> I was definitely among the 50% who really liked it. In fact, I loved it.


I enjoyed it as well. I don't agree with those who said that the entire "waiting area" story line was a waste. I liked it a lot. It ended up being a kind of season-long goodbye to the characters, rather than shoving it all into the last few minutes.


----------



## ronsch

astrohip said:


> All my SPs are FRO. I did watch the final LOST (which is STILL on my TiVo) a few months ago, and it was just as moving as the first time. But other than that, I don't think I've ever rewatched another episode.


:up::up:

I actually have both the regular finale and the CC finale from the following Saturday (on two TiVos)!


----------



## wprager

Jstkiddn said:


> If you don't mind me asking....what age are/were the kids that you watched with? I'd like to watch with my daughter someday, but not sure if she's old enough to appreciate it yet.


We started when my oldest was almost 14. My second was 12-1/2 at the time but after watching the first 2-3 episodes he stopped. He's a bit more sensitive than my oldest and the airplane crash freaked him out a bit, then the "monster" finished him off. It's a little less than a year later now, and he's really enjoying it (as is the oldest, who's re-watching it). Funny thing is, the younger one is much more in tune with the emotional aspect of the series.


----------



## wprager

astrohip said:


> And if you don't mind me asking... how is LOST on a second viewing? Do you pick up things you totally missed the first time? Are the characters different, knowing what you know about them? Is the story still fresh, or more enjoyable, or less?
> 
> I've never watched an entire series more than once. I don't even watch reruns. All my SPs are FRO. I did watch the final LOST (which is STILL on my TiVo) a few months ago, and it was just as moving as the first time. But other than that, I don't think I've ever rewatched another episode.


Well, I certainly miss going to this board and reading all the little things that people picked up on, all the WAGs as to what is going on. I don't pause and re-wind nearly as much as I did the first time, or try to catch all the instances of "the numbers" showing up everywhere.

However I love how the characters are written. Some of the dialog is excellent. I noticed much more how *other* characters keep echoing back Locke's "Don't tell me what I cannot do"; really enjoyed the "I never" game between Kate and Sawyer, even the third time through; that exchange between Jack and Lock -- "Why do you find it so hard to believe?' "Why do you find it so easy!" -- just loving that all over again.


----------



## wprager

rondotcom said:


> If "LOST" watchers were art critics:
> 
> Having finally seen "Mona Lisa" all I can say is what a bag of suck that was. They never answered the question of what she was smiling at or even if she WAS smiling. I mean that the biggest mystery of the painting and DaVinci doesn't even address it! I expected so much more from a painter of his reputation. I feel that he let all of his fans (especially me) down with this twisted, horrible, ill-conceived pile of poop.


Well, having seen the Mona Lisa, I can say that it was very underwhelming. First, it's much smaller than I thought. There's a crowd 10-deep in front of it that makes it seem all that much smaller. Lastly, it's behind dark glass. In all, seeing it in person was a bit of a let down.

And I loved the Lost finale


----------



## wprager

jkeegan said:


> I just recently had to bite the bullet and delete the finale from my TiVo, as it had died and I needed to move to a new drive (and I was at the "it's way easier at this point to lose all video" stage). My only justification was that I have it on DVD.
> 
> I hope someday to go through all of the seasons of Lost with my kids.. I wonder if that'll happen though - there are so many shows to watch that we haven't watched yet - time is expensive.


DVD? I started buying the blu rays one at a time as we re-watched it. I accidentally bought S5 on DVD (eBay search failed me, and I didn't notice until too late). Even my (by-then) 14 year old noticed right away.

I now semi-dread re-watching BSG (my oldest is turning 15, maybe it's time), because it's *all* on DVD.


----------



## sushikitten

I loved LOST so much I bought the DVDs to rewatch...until I saw the finale, that is. Count me as one who didn't like it. Sure, I cried, but I wanted more of a wrap up to all the mysteries. So, since I was expecting to rewatch and pick up more clues about how it would end...but since the ending didn't do that...there was just no reason for me to watch it again.


----------



## betts4

wprager said:


> Well, I certainly miss going to this board and reading all the little things that people picked up on, all the WAGs as to what is going on. I don't pause and re-wind nearly as much as I did the first time, or try to catch all the instances of "the numbers" showing up everywhere.


We need to have a thread for LOST viewers watching it a second or third time so we can discuss stuff.


----------



## mattack

whitson77 said:


> If only they gave it the ending it deserved. Seinfeld-eske Fail...


That's funny, because I think the Seinfeld finale was ok. Not great, not very hilarious, but it "seinfeld-ed seinfeld".


----------



## DougF

Back around the time "Lost" premiered, I was into making home-brewed DVD sets of my favorite shows. As much as I liked "Lost", I didn't think it was re-watchable. I'm starting to change my mind on that. I think after a few years when I've forgotten a whole lot, starting over might be interesting.


----------



## atrac

I am still in shock that this aired a year ago. REALLY?!?? It's *already* been a year!?!? I feel like I just watched it.


----------



## Peter000

atrac said:


> I am still in shock that this aired a year ago. REALLY?!?? It's *already* been a year!?!? I feel like I just watched it.


I can't believe it's been ONLY a year. To me it seems like years ago for some reason.


----------



## dianebrat

atrac said:


> I am still in shock that this aired a year ago. REALLY?!?? It's *already* been a year!?!? I feel like I just watched it.


Same here, and I still miss it


----------



## Steveknj

DougF said:


> Back around the time "Lost" premiered, I was into making home-brewed DVD sets of my favorite shows. As much as I liked "Lost", I didn't think it was re-watchable. I'm starting to change my mind on that. I think after a few years when I've forgotten a whole lot, starting over might be interesting.


I still have it sitting on my DVR 

I would love them to make a movie that is set, say 20 years after Hugo and Ben were finished with their turn protecting the island. There would be a whole host of new people and a new protector and it would be interesting if they could start out a whole new storyline from that. Maybe the heirs of the Whitmores still trying to get the island back or maybe Desmond and Penny's child come there for some reason. I think that would be fun.

Anyone have any ideas of what they could do with a Lost 2 - Return to the Island?


----------



## gchance

Steveknj said:


> Anyone have any ideas of what they could do with a Lost 2 - Return to the Island?


Do you work in Hollywood?

Greg


----------



## mrdazzo7

Steveknj said:


> To me, the problem wasn't the finale, but how the final season played out.





Bryanmc said:


> I liked half of the LOST finale, and as a result ended up liking half of the final season.
> 
> The island stuff in the finale was awesome, great storytelling and drama. The resolution of "purgatory" or whatever you want to call it was stupid. And the worst of it is it makes the entire season half worthless. Every scene from "purgatory" ultimately is of no importance and is worthless when it comes to the story. Upon subsequent viewings you might as well just fast forward through all those flashes during the entire season.


This is exactly how I felt. Whatever time they spent with the core characters in the present day I was pretty happy with, including where they all ended up (some people dying, some staying, some heading back to society...) but that entire 'sideways' thing was an awful, awful idea. The whole concept of them waiting for each other in the after life until they're all dead is ok (although I still don't get why it wasn't chronological but whatevs), but it could have played out over the finale or last four eps or something--to spend half of *17* episodes in a fake world that had zero bearing on anything ruined a lot of my enthusiasm for the show.

I know there's a camp of people who truly believe Darlton could do no wrong, but that whole idea was so bone-headed that it's clear they were in a position where they had 17 episodes to fill and they could no longer use a time device to sort of fill in the time gaps, and this was their band aid.

As far as "answering mysteries they set up", I think it's hard to deny that they set up a TON of stuff they just didn't pay off. But that's what I never understood--I get not getting to certain things because of time constraints, but I was floored by how they spent five years building up a lot of *awesome* stuff, and instead of paying off like 60% of it in the 17 episodes they had, they just spent half that time on something completely unrelated to anything. That's what never made sense... You set it up, you have the time, and then you just go some other way?? It's baffled me this whole time.

I think the last season was "meh" for me also because I never really cared about Jacob or MIB. I definitely wanted back-story on the island and all that, but it was a major theme of the last season, and even that didn't seem to have a major point--it could have played out over an episode or two.

I actually have a hard time recommending the show to new peeps because for me, the last season simply didn't live it to what it could have been, especially compared to what preceded it, so it's a hard call. Do you want to watch 5 seasons of the most bad ass show ever if you know the last season more or less drops the ball? It's like watching an hour and a half of the best movie you've ever seen, and then the last ten minutes ruin it.



gchance said:


> Do you work in Hollywood?
> 
> Greg


----------



## Anubys

is there a good site to see a list of unanswered questions from LOST?


----------



## Magister

I still don't understand why the Jacob group had to keep killing peeps and kidnaping children.


----------



## latrobe7

Anubys said:


> is there a good site to see a list of unanswered questions from LOST?


http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Unanswered_questions


----------



## JYoung

Magister said:


> I still don't understand why the Jacob group had to keep killing peeps and kidnaping children.


Because Ben said so.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

A year? That feels about right. 

I miss LOST.


----------



## Ereth

Magister said:


> I still don't understand why the Jacob group had to keep killing peeps and kidnaping children.


Because they couldn't have children of their own. And any society that cannot have children is doomed.


----------



## S3-2501

Anubys said:


> is there a good site to see a list of unanswered questions from LOST?


 I think this video does a good job of summing up the loose ends. (Warning: there are major spoilers there for those who haven't seen the whole series!)

Despite its flaws, I still miss this show immensely!


----------



## Steveknj

mrdazzo7 said:


> This is exactly how I felt. Whatever time they spent with the core characters in the present day I was pretty happy with, including where they all ended up (some people dying, some staying, some heading back to society...) but that entire 'sideways' thing was an awful, awful idea. The whole concept of them waiting for each other in the after life until they're all dead is ok (although I still don't get why it wasn't chronological but whatevs), but it could have played out over the finale or last four eps or something--to spend half of *17* episodes in a fake world that had zero bearing on anything ruined a lot of my enthusiasm for the show.
> 
> I know there's a camp of people who truly believe Darlton could do no wrong, but that whole idea was so bone-headed that it's clear they were in a position where they had 17 episodes to fill and they could no longer use a time device to sort of fill in the time gaps, and this was their band aid.
> 
> As far as "answering mysteries they set up", I think it's hard to deny that they set up a TON of stuff they just didn't pay off. But that's what I never understood--I get not getting to certain things because of time constraints, but I was floored by how they spent five years building up a lot of *awesome* stuff, and instead of paying off like 60% of it in the 17 episodes they had, they just spent half that time on something completely unrelated to anything. That's what never made sense... You set it up, you have the time, and then you just go some other way?? It's baffled me this whole time.
> 
> I think the last season was "meh" for me also because I never really cared about Jacob or MIB. I definitely wanted back-story on the island and all that, but it was a major theme of the last season, and even that didn't seem to have a major point--it could have played out over an episode or two.
> 
> I actually have a hard time recommending the show to new peeps because for me, the last season simply didn't live it to what it could have been, especially compared to what preceded it, so it's a hard call. Do you want to watch 5 seasons of the most bad ass show ever if you know the last season more or less drops the ball? It's like watching an hour and a half of the best movie you've ever seen, and then the last ten minutes ruin it.


This pretty much sums up my feelings. I hated the whole Jacob vs. MIB things. Seriously, did anyone who watched from the beginning think the WHOLE reason for everything was because of Jacob? In fact, I think many of us during season 3 thought Jacob was made up by Ben as a way of keeping his power. To me the stuff with the Losties battling The Others, and the Dharma stuff was the fun stuff, and the stuff I wanted to have explained. But it was made totally insignificant in meaning when it all turned out to be part of Jacob's plan for finding a new island caretaker.

That said, I still loved most of the ride it took me on, and I'll gladly rewatch, even if it's just to see if there were clues about how this would end up.


----------



## philw1776

mrdazzo7 said:


> This is exactly how I felt. Whatever time they spent with the core characters in the present day I was pretty happy with, including where they all ended up (some people dying, some staying, some heading back to society...) but* that entire 'sideways' thing was an awful, awful idea. ...*I know there's a camp of people who truly believe Darlton could do no wrong, but that whole idea was so bone-headed that it's clear they were in a position where they had 17 episodes to fill and they could no longer use a time device to sort of fill in the time gaps, and this was their band aid.
> 
> As far as "answering mysteries they set up", I think it's hard to deny that they set up a TON of stuff they just didn't pay off. But that's what I never understood--I get not getting to certain things because of time constraints, bawesome* stuff, and instead of paying off like 60% of it in the 17 episodes they had, *they just spent half that time on something completely unrelated to anything. I* was floored by how they spent five years building up a lot of * That's what never made sense... You set it up, you have the time, and then you just go some other way?? It's baffled me this whole time.
> 
> I think the last season was "meh" for me also because I never really cared about Jacob or MIB. I definitely wanted back-story on the island and all that, but it was a major theme of the last season, and even that didn't seem to have a major point--it could have played out over an episode or two.
> 
> ...I actually have a hard time recommending the show to new peeps because for me, the last season simply didn't live it to what it could have been, especially compared to what preceded it, so it's a hard call. Do you want to watch 5 seasons of the most bad ass show ever if you know the last season more or less drops the ball? It's like watching an hour and a half of the best movie you've ever seen, and then the last ten minutes ruin it.


I challenge the statement that only a small segment of fans didn't like the ending. I like many who posted here then and now felt let down. Many of the reasons are in the quoted post. Pissed away an opportunity to do so much more wasting it on too much Jacob (whose existance made years of episodes moot) and worse yet the trite Purgatory bit. Yah, I loved all the emotional reunion scenes but knowing there was drek behind it ruins it.

LOST's ending will always be special for me. I could only watch the 1st 20 minutes of the 3 hours live before I had to get to bed to prep for 5AM major cancer surgery. Didn't get to see the rest of it until that Wednesday. Thank you Tivo!


----------



## mmilton80

Jacob was a juvenile God who demanded the obedience of his people. For the Others, he is like the God of the Old Testament. He made lists that people were to blindly follow and in general, did more harm than good. His final acts were ones of redemption - both giving Ben the choice of free will and allowing the Jack and the others to decide who would take up the mantle of the new god.

The show is about redemption. We were shown people who were broken, had made lots of mistakes, and had to redeem themselves. Those who moved on were able to because they were redeemed (in their eyes). Ben was not able to because he still had to forgive himself. 

If the show is about redemption, which I believe, then the Sideways World was very important.


----------



## pjenkins

from Twitter 

SarahKSilvermanSarah Silverman

We have to go back #Lost#still


----------



## gchance




----------



## sushikitten

I saw that and almost retweeted it.


----------



## astrohip




----------



## Steveknj

astrohip said:


>


It's still snowing in TX? LOL


----------



## betts4

astrohip said:


>


Love it!!


----------



## whitson77

I hope they bring it back and pretend that finale never happened. Suck...


----------



## appleye1

whitson77 said:


> I hope they bring it back and pretend that finale never happened. Suck...


Actually, if they were able to get the original cast back together and got a good story line going (just wipe out the last season and start over) then I think it might fetch pretty good ratings.

The problem is, you'd never get the cast back together. Then again if you got Mathew Fox (A.K.A. Jack "we have to go back" Shephard) to round them all up it might happen!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

appleye1 said:


> The problem is, you'd never get the cast back together. Then again if you got Mathew Fox (A.K.A. Jack "we have to go back" Shephard) to round them all up it might happen!


That might be amusing...Matthew keeps trying to convince them to come back, and they keep saying, "Dude, WE have careers!"


----------



## gchance

appleye1 said:


> The problem is, you'd never get the cast back together. Then again if you got Mathew Fox (A.K.A. Jack "we have to go back" Shephard) to round them all up it might happen!


Maybe Matthew Fox can get the cast to be zombies in World War Z.

Greg


----------



## rondotcom

whitson77 said:


> I hope they bring it back and pretend that finale never happened. Suck...


Wow. That makes me still the only one who understood and enjoyed the finale.

Hello from an Army of one.


----------



## madscientist

Two!


----------



## betts4

rondotcom said:


> Wow. That makes me still the only one who understood and enjoyed the finale.
> 
> Hello from an Army of one.


Three.

And there are more of us out here. You are not alone.


----------



## gchance

rondotcom said:


> Wow. That makes me still the only one who understood and enjoyed the finale.
> 
> Hello from an Army of one.


Four. 

Greg


----------



## aadam101

appleye1 said:


> The problem is, you'd never get the cast back together. Then again if you got Mathew Fox (A.K.A. Jack "we have to go back" Shephard) to round them all up it might happen!


The show has a scattered format anyway. There aren't too many episodes that all of the cast members are in together. They could pretty easily do episodes that focus on just one or two people and consider them guest stars.


----------



## JYoung

rondotcom said:


> Wow. That makes me still the only one who understood and enjoyed the finale.
> 
> Hello from an Army of one.


Five


----------



## dianebrat

rondotcom said:


> Wow. That makes me still the only one who understood and enjoyed the finale.
> 
> Hello from an Army of one.


make that six


----------



## MonsterJoe

7


----------



## danterner




----------



## wprager

Can't top that, but 9, for whatever that's worth.


----------



## Steveknj

I understood the finale...do I get half credit?

Really, I didn't like the whole last season. I've said many times that introducing Jacob and MIB really marginalized what happened for all the seasons before it. But put in context, I thought the ending was ok. I just wish they had taken the show in a different direction than they did that last season.


----------



## Fahtrim

rondotcom said:


> Wow. That makes me still the only one who understood and enjoyed the finale.
> 
> Hello from an Army of one.


The poster you referenced didn't say they didn't understand the finale, they just said is sucked.

I understood the finale, and I still think it sucked.


----------



## Bryanmc

Fahtrim said:


> The poster you referenced didn't say they didn't understand the finale, they just said is sucked.
> 
> I understood the finale, and I still think it sucked.


I understood the finale and thought it half sucked. The island stuff was killer, the purgatory stuff was not.


----------



## jlb

I am one of the few who loooooooooooved the finale for many reasons. Perhaps it is because I am a man of faith.

I loved so many things that made me tear up....the awakenings, the redemption, Jack dying where he first came to the Island, Vincent (oy dogs really make me well up).......

I still to this day feel, IMHO, that many/most people who didn't like the finale were folks who hoped to have all the answers given and didn't just go along for the ride. But that's just me.

No TV show has ever made me feel about characters the way Lost has. And you cannot deny Darlton's abilities to write a good character (Nikki and Paolo notwithstanding).

I am amidst a rewatch with my 13yo daughter (we're almost done with S3), and she loves it. And I love watching with her. I am now prepping her to hate Nikki and Paolo. That's about the only "stuff" I am giving her ahead of time. what a treat it is to watch the show unfold with her eyes.


----------



## betts4

jlb said:


> I am one of the few who loooooooooooved the finale for many reasons.


We are up to about 10 or more now here that liked it. That's more than a few.



> I am amidst a rewatch with my 13yo daughter (we're almost done with S3), and she loves it. And I love watching with her. I am now prepping her to hate Nikki and Paolo. That's about the only "stuff" I am giving her ahead of time. what a treat it is to watch the show unfold with her eyes.


This must be great!


----------



## DreadPirateRob

12 (if I counted right)


----------



## mmilton80

13.


----------



## Shaunnick

14


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Amazing how so many people can be so wrong!


----------



## gchance

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Amazing how so many people can be so wrong!


How can we be wrong when it feels oh, so right?

Greg


----------



## whitson77

rondotcom said:


> Wow. That makes me still the only one who understood and enjoyed the finale.
> 
> Hello from an Army of one.


Are you saying I didn't understand the finale? I know some people that liked it, and good for them. I also knew way more people that understood the show, and hated how they frakked up the show in the final episode.


----------



## mrdazzo7

whitson77 said:


> Are you saying I didn't understand the finale? I know some people that liked it, and good for them. I also knew way more people that understood the show, and hated how they frakked up the show in the final episode.


Exactly. It's always funny when you say you didn't like the finale (or anything for that matter) and someone says "You just didn't get it..." as if it's impossible to "get" something _and_hate it. It wasn't that hard to understand since Christian gave a big ass speech and explained it. So getting it wasn't the problem.

I also don't really understand the "you didn't like it because it didn't tie everything up in a neat little bow and answer every single question" camp. Two things one that: 1) Why on earth is expecting a show like this to answer questions that they deliberately set up a bad thing? and 2), it's not that they didn't address every single thing, it's that the sheer volume of stuff they dropped is astounding, and it's even worse that they dropped it all in favor of a plot that could have been played out over three episodes.

It's not even the finale itself that sucked--I loved the on-island stuff and I loved the resolutions for each of the groups in the present day. It's the fact that 50% of the show's entire final season was dedicated to a plot that added almost to a story we'd been following for five years. I get that the "sideways" stuff enabled people to reconcile things that they couldn't reconcile in their lives or whatever, but seriously--17 EPISODES of this? Sorry, unnecessary. And then of the other 50%, they spent a ton of time focusing on two characters we'd never even seen before (at length), and the explanation of their story was one of the biggest let downs possible.

To each his own I guess but this notion that a series can spend five years building things up only to completely ignore them in the end is simply bad writing. Anyone can come up with the most bad ass, awesome concepts known to man but if you can't deliver the payoff then you haven't done anything. Expecting things that are set-up to eventually be paid off isn't the same thing as wanting all the stories and the characters to be wrapped up in a happy, clearly defined manner. It's two totally different concepts.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Yeah, when they said early on that they knew the ending from the beginning, that set up (in my mind, anyway) an expectation that A) the story would build towards that ending, instead of most of it having nothing to do with it, and B) the ending they had in mind from the beginning was a little more sophisticated than "It ends with a close-up of Jack dying, with the same camera view as the first shot of the pilot."

So most of the stuff that dominated the show throughout was just filler. But it certainly didn't feel like it...it felt like _the show_, and it felt like the ending just tossed out most of the show.

But I guess there's really no point in having this discussion yet again...


----------



## latrobe7

I was completely satisfied with the final episode of LOST; and with the series as a whole.

For me, LOST and Battlestar Galactica are two sides of the same coin; in that in both cases they were making it up as they went along. Just one was good and the other was not.


----------



## Steveknj

mrdazzo7 said:


> Exactly. It's always funny when you say you didn't like the finale (or anything for that matter) and someone says "You just didn't get it..." as if it's impossible to "get" something _and_hate it. It wasn't that hard to understand since Christian gave a big ass speech and explained it. So getting it wasn't the problem.
> 
> I also don't really understand the "you didn't like it because it didn't tie everything up in a neat little bow and answer every single question" camp. Two things one that: 1) Why on earth is expecting a show like this to answer questions that they deliberately set up a bad thing? and 2), it's not that they didn't address every single thing, it's that the sheer volume of stuff they dropped is astounding, and it's even worse that they dropped it all in favor of a plot that could have been played out over three episodes.
> 
> It's not even the finale itself that sucked--I loved the on-island stuff and I loved the resolutions for each of the groups in the present day. It's the fact that 50% of the show's entire final season was dedicated to a plot that added almost to a story we'd been following for five years. I get that the "sideways" stuff enabled people to reconcile things that they couldn't reconcile in their lives or whatever, but seriously--17 EPISODES of this? Sorry, unnecessary. And then of the other 50%, they spent a ton of time focusing on two characters we'd never even seen before (at length), and the explanation of their story was one of the biggest let downs possible.
> 
> To each his own I guess but this notion that a series can spend five years building things up only to completely ignore them in the end is simply bad writing. Anyone can come up with the most bad ass, awesome concepts known to man but if you can't deliver the payoff then you haven't done anything. Expecting things that are set-up to eventually be paid off isn't the same thing as wanting all the stories and the characters to be wrapped up in a happy, clearly defined manner. It's two totally different concepts.


Couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, when they said early on that they knew the ending from the beginning, that set up (in my mind, anyway) an expectation that A) the story would build towards that ending, instead of most of it having nothing to do with it, and B) the ending they had in mind from the beginning was a little more sophisticated than "It ends with a close-up of Jack dying, with the same camera view as the first shot of the pilot."
> 
> So most of the stuff that dominated the show throughout was just filler. But it certainly didn't feel like it...it felt like _the show_, and it felt like the ending just tossed out most of the show.
> 
> But I guess there's really no point in having this discussion yet again...


If they had introduced Jacob and the MIB say at the end of S2, the whole thing would have worked much better. Then perhaps we would have gotten the feeling how this was supposed to be played out, instead of getting sucked into a storyline that really had little to do with what the show was ultimately about.

With that said, that we can discuss this over and over more than a year later shows how passionate we still are about this show. Despite all this, it was still one of the most fun rides I have ever had on TV.


----------



## danterner

Steveknj said:


> If they had introduced Jacob and the MIB say at the end of S2, the whole thing would have worked much better.


Jacob was mentioned by name as early as season 3 episode 6, which isn't all that far off from the end of season 2. And the MIB was a part of the show (albeit in his smoke-monster form) right from the pilot episode. I think one of the more difficult parts of writing the show must have been figuring out how and when to dole out plot points. Reveal too much too soon and you've shown your hand too early - people figure out where the show is going and you risk their losing interest. Reveal too little, too late, and you run the risk of people having the reaction to the finale that many people did. There's a sweet spot in the middle there, somewhere. I think LOST missed it, but not by all that much. And I'm glad that they erred in the direction they did.


----------



## rondotcom

Bryanmc said:


> I understood the finale and thought it half sucked. The island stuff was killer, the purgatory stuff was not.


*SIGH* OK. Once again, it wasn't purgatory.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

rondotcom said:


> *SIGH* OK. Once again, it wasn't purgatory.


OK, it wasn't purgatory. It was some other place you go after you die but before your final destination, to work stuff out.


----------



## TonyTheTiger

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, it wasn't purgatory. It was some other place you go after you die but before your final destination, to work stuff out.


...and what would that place be called????


----------



## danterner

TonyTheTiger said:


> ...and what would that place be called????


Limbo


----------



## lew

Steveknj said:


> If they had introduced Jacob and the MIB say at the end of S2, the whole thing would have worked much better. Then perhaps we would have gotten the feeling how this was supposed to be played out, instead of getting sucked into a storyline that really had little to do with what the show was ultimately about.
> 
> With that said, that we can discuss this over and over more than a year later shows how passionate we still are about this show. Despite all this, it was still one of the most fun rides I have ever had on TV.


They had no idea how long Lost would run. Might have made it hard to decide when to introduce important characters. I thought the show was at it's best the first season, maybe 2. It got better once an end date was decided.

I think some concepts work better as a mini-series. OR a planned run of a certain number of seasons. OR at least plan on resolving a plot line in a certain number of seasons (2-5?).

Heros sort of did that. The problem is the plot lines after the first sucked.


----------



## Steveknj

danterner said:


> Jacob was mentioned by name as early as season 3 episode 6, which isn't all that far off from the end of season 2. And the MIB was a part of the show (albeit in his smoke-monster form) right from the pilot episode. I think one of the more difficult parts of writing the show must have been figuring out how and when to dole out plot points. Reveal too much too soon and you've shown your hand too early - people figure out where the show is going and you risk their losing interest. Reveal too little, too late, and you run the risk of people having the reaction to the finale that many people did. There's a sweet spot in the middle there, somewhere. I think LOST missed it, but not by all that much. And I'm glad that they erred in the direction they did.


I know Jacob had been mentioned by Ben fairly early on. But, at least I, was led to believe that perhaps he was made up by Ben. Not until they revealed him at the end of the penultimate season was I ever convinced there actually WAS a Jabob. And yes MiB in the smoke monster form was introduced the first episode....but again, I had no inkling he'd ever have a human form.


----------



## Steveknj

lew said:


> They had no idea how long Lost would run. Might have made it hard to decide when to introduce important characters. I thought the show was at it's best the first season, maybe 2. It got better once an end date was decided.
> 
> I think some concepts work better as a mini-series. OR a planned run of a certain number of seasons. OR at least plan on resolving a plot line in a certain number of seasons (2-5?).
> 
> Heros sort of did that. The problem is the plot lines after the first sucked.


I always wondered (and of course it's a moot point), but if they had revealed what the story was ACTUALLY about, would we have all stuck around and watched? If we saw actual glimpes of Jacob from time to time (not him or smokey in other forms) and gotten some inkling of what he was thinking, how it would have changed how we thought about the show.


----------



## whitson77

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, it wasn't purgatory. It was some other place you go after you die but before your final destination, to work stuff out.


haha!


----------



## betts4

I always wonder what was edited out or written out. Maybe there were scenes that the writers talked about to introduce these characters, but they got vetoed and as such, never written.


----------



## danterner

betts4 said:


> I always wonder what was edited out or written out. Maybe there were scenes that the writers talked about to introduce these characters, but they got vetoed and as such, never written.


Did you see the recently-released-at-comicon lost LOST footage from the Season One finale?


----------



## betts4

danterner said:


> Did you see the recently-released-at-comicon lost LOST footage from the Season One finale?


I haven't seen it yet and can't play it at work, but will be looking at it as soon as I get home! Thanks.


----------



## DUDE_NJX

Well, THAT makes more sense


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Nice to see that even with all the controversy, they haven't lost their sense of humor.

Get it, "lost"?


----------



## NoThru22

rondotcom said:


> *SIGH* OK. Once again, it wasn't purgatory.


The flash sideways in Season 7 WAS purgatory but a lot of people took it to mean that the island (and the whole series) was also purgatory, which it wasn't.


----------



## ihatecable

No the viewers where in purgatory!


----------



## javabird

jlb said:


> I am now prepping her to hate Nikki and Paolo.


Copy that!


----------



## wprager

NoThru22 said:


> The flash sideways in *Season 7* WAS purgatory but a lot of people took it to mean that the island (and the whole series) was also purgatory, which it wasn't.


I missed a whole season? No wonder! That explains a few things.


----------



## astrohip

It was two years ago tonight . . .


----------



## gchance

astrohip said:


> It was two years ago tonight . . .


Which is an appropriate time to share this, which is probably posted elsewhere on TCF, but I don't care. Damon Lindelof, defending the ending of Lost with an interviewer, 2 years after it aired. I LOVE this.

http://blastr.com/2012/05/damon-lindelof-passionate.php

We still need that rewatch. I recently attempted to watch with my 10-year-old, and we watched the Pilot through Walkabout straight through, but he couldn't quite get the drama of it. He just wanted to know what the monster was. I posted to FB & Twitter that I felt sorry for the kid. 

Walkabout is still one of my favorite hours of television.

Greg


----------



## aindik

Seems like so much longer ago.

Here's a recent interview with Damon Lindelof on the ending. A good 25 minutes with Joshua Topolsky from The Verge.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/21/3...e-verge#ooid=JzcTZxNDpDw95LfX4YwYQ_HSvsunTx48


----------



## gchance

HEY, I just realized, Anubys's quote in my signature is about Arzt, is it not?

Greg


----------



## Steveknj

Still got the last 3 episodes (and the finale) on my DVR. I can't bear to delete it


----------



## Donbadabon

"You all, everybody...."

Razzle Dazzle!


----------



## astrohip

Steveknj said:


> Still got the last 3 episodes (and the finale) on my DVR. I can't bear to delete it


My old S3 has the finale. When I got an Elite a few months back, one of the first things I did was transfer it.


----------



## jkeegan

DAMN I MISS THAT SHOW!!!

I'm up for a group rewatch.


----------



## photoshopgrl

gchance said:


> Walkabout is still one of my favorite hours of television.


Mine too. By far my favorite episode of the series and where my love of TO erupted. I had seen him other stuff but this show hooked me on him as an actor.


----------



## Anubys

gchance said:


> HEY, I just realized, Anubys's quote in my signature is about Arzt, is it not?
> 
> Greg


Yes. Yes it was. I loved Arzt. Arts. Whatever his name was 

Kaboom!


----------



## philw1776

astrohip said:


> It was two years ago tonight . . .


I'll never forget.

Had to shut it off during the 1st hour and get to bed because I had to get up before dawn for serious surgery, my 1st stay ever in a hospital. Then having recovered quickly I went home fired up the DVR and had to endure the travesty ending of a once great show.


----------



## tivoboyjr

I was more into Lost than any TV show ever. My interest waned a little over the last couple of seasons, but pretty much the only direction it could go was down after being so high initially. I didn't love the ending, but in looking back the show was a little like a car that was out of control and it just needed to crash into something and stop. There wasn't a great way to wrap it all up at that point.

I expected that I'd go back and re-watch it (the series), but I haven't. Partly out of not having enough time and partly because I know it won't have the same effect on me the 2nd time around.

Maybe after two more years I'll stop falling for shows marketed as "the next Lost." Hasn't happened yet.


----------



## jkeegan

philw1776 said:


> I'll never forget.
> 
> Had to shut it off during the 1st hour and get to bed because I had to get up before dawn for serious surgery, my 1st stay ever in a hospital. Then having recovered quickly I went home fired up the DVR and had to endure the travesty ending of a once great show.


I remember you posting about that!


----------



## Steveknj

tivoboyjr said:


> I was more into Lost than any TV show ever. My interest waned a little over the last couple of seasons, but pretty much the only direction it could go was down after being so high initially. I didn't love the ending, but in looking back the show was a little like a car that was out of control and it just needed to crash into something and stop. There wasn't a great way to wrap it all up at that point.
> 
> I expected that I'd go back and re-watch it (the series), but I haven't. Partly out of not having enough time and partly because I know it won't have the same effect on me the 2nd time around.
> 
> Maybe after two more years I'll stop falling for shows marketed as "the next Lost." Hasn't happened yet.


The closest I've come to the next Lost has been Game of Thrones.


----------



## photoshopgrl

Steveknj said:


> The closest I've come to the next Lost has been Game of Thrones.


I was sooo obsessed with Lost season 1, I had a website, domain name, nickname for fans (I'm pretty sure I was the first to come up with Lostaways and had the domain for a few years then they all decided to go by Losties instead, which I didn't think was as cute ) and t-shirts made that said "Get Lost" on the boobs. 
Yeah GoT isn't that level of obsession but it very easily could be, I'm just fighting to not be such a dork about TV anymore.


----------



## Steveknj

BTW...it feels good to participate in a Lost thread again


----------



## tivoboyjr

photoshopgrl said:


> I was sooo obsessed with Lost season 1, I had a website, domain name, nickname for fans (I'm pretty sure I was the first to come up with Lostaways and had the domain for a few years then they all decided to go by Losties instead, which I didn't think was as cute ) and t-shirts made that said "Get Lost" on the boobs.
> Yeah GoT isn't that level of obsession but it very easily could be, I'm just fighting to not be such a dork about TV anymore.


Wow! That's impressive. The most I did was form a weekly discussion group with people from work. We called it "LLL" -- Lost Losers Lunch.

I'm a sucker for puzzles, and a big part of the appeal of Lost for me was that it seemed like a giant puzzle that could be solved. In the end, that was only kinda sorta the case, but I am using all of my willpower not to go there and rehash six seasons of being amazed and also frustrated periodically.

I think GOT is filling the void for me, too, but I'm not obsessed with it like I was with Lost.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

You guys. We have to go back.


----------



## danterner

DreadPirateRob said:


> You guys. We have to go back.


LOL :up:


----------



## betts4

jkeegan said:


> DAMN I MISS THAT SHOW!!!
> 
> I'm up for a group rewatch.


IN!!



photoshopgrl said:


> I was sooo obsessed with Lost season 1, I had a website, domain name, nickname for fans (I'm pretty sure I was the first to come up with Lostaways and had the domain for a few years then they all decided to go by Losties instead, which I didn't think was as cute ) and t-shirts made that said "Get Lost" on the boobs.
> Yeah GoT isn't that level of obsession but it very easily could be, I'm just fighting to not be such a dork about TV anymore.


I was very obsessed too. I co-modded on a message board that started on one board, moved to tv.com and then a bunch of us went to a private/invitation message board that we ran. We are all still friends on FB and such. We had a LOST meet up in Philly. 9 of us hung out for the weekend and watched some LOST and became better friends. Heck, I even joined the ABC LOST fan club. Got a tee shirt, photos and a Oceanic knapsack. Still have the tee shirt and knapsack. God I miss that show!!!


----------



## Steveknj

I was going to rewatch last summer, but found I had other stuff to watch that I hadn't seen yet. I must have about 25 movies saved up, some documentaries and some of my normal summer shows, so I doubt I'll get to it again this summer. But maybe I'll sit and watch the finale again.


----------



## photoshopgrl

DreadPirateRob said:


> You guys. We have to go back.


And still I hear the voice when I read it. For a show that had many characters that annoyed the crap out of me, I was sure hooked beyond hooked.



betts4 said:


> I was very obsessed too. I co-modded on a message board that started on one board, moved to tv.com and then a bunch of us went to a private/invitation message board that we ran. We are all still friends on FB and such. We had a LOST meet up in Philly. 9 of us hung out for the weekend and watched some LOST and became better friends. Heck, I even joined the ABC LOST fan club. Got a tee shirt, photos and a Oceanic knapsack. Still have the tee shirt and knapsack. God I miss that show!!!


Which board? I was on losttv-forum and some long name on yuku boards before that. Then pretty much I had to get a grip on reality. So then I just vaguely read that board and the fuselage board.


----------



## astrohip

I've watched bits & pieces of the finale over the last two years. When I start to feel nostalgic. I doubt I'll ever watch the entire series again. Mainly what tivoboyjr said--just won't be the same the second time.

Lost is far and away my favorite show of all time. While there are lots of shows I really like (GoT is a perfect example), I've never felt remotely close to the way I did for Lost.

Sometimes all the pieces fall in place, and the stars align. Truly unique show.


----------



## Anubys

photoshopgrl said:


> Yeah GoT isn't that level of obsession but it very easily could be, I'm just fighting to not be such a dork about TV anymore.


I'm sorry to tell you, things are not working out too well on THAT front 



DreadPirateRob said:


> You guys. We have to go back.


:up:

I'm glad I was a johnny come lately to that show. I don't know how you guys did it; waiting a week between shows and a year between seasons.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

gchance said:


> Which is an appropriate time to share this, which is probably posted elsewhere on TCF, but I don't care. Damon Lindelof, defending the ending of Lost with an interviewer, 2 years after it aired. I LOVE this.
> 
> http://blastr.com/2012/05/damon-lindelof-passionate.php
> 
> We still need that rewatch. I recently attempted to watch with my 10-year-old, and we watched the Pilot through Walkabout straight through, but he couldn't quite get the drama of it. He just wanted to know what the monster was. I posted to FB & Twitter that I felt sorry for the kid.
> 
> Walkabout is still one of my favorite hours of television.
> 
> Greg





aindik said:


> Seems like so much longer ago.
> 
> Here's a recent interview with Damon Lindelof on the ending. A good 25 minutes with Joshua Topolsky from The Verge.
> 
> http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/21/3...e-verge#ooid=JzcTZxNDpDw95LfX4YwYQ_HSvsunTx48


Same interview, different website hosting it. 

Kinda makes it hard to take the interviewer seriously when he clearly didn't even understand a good portion of the import of the finale (i.e. he didn't realize that the events on the Island were real).


----------



## Test

gchance said:


> Walkabout is still one of my favorite hours of television.
> 
> Greg





photoshopgrl said:


> Mine too. By far my favorite episode of the series


Agreed, 100%.



photoshopgrl said:


> I was sooo obsessed with Lost season 1, I had a website, domain name, nickname for fans (I'm pretty sure I was the first to come up with Lostaways and had the domain for a few years then they all decided to go by Losties instead, which I didn't think was as cute )* and t-shirts made that said "Get Lost" on the boobs.*
> Yeah GoT isn't that level of obsession but it very easily could be, I'm just fighting to not be such a dork about TV anymore.


POIDH


----------



## photoshopgrl

Anubys said:


> I'm sorry to tell you, things are not working out too well on THAT front


I know! I get made fun of at work because of all the TV I watch and there's one guy there that watches almost all the shows I watch so I'm always chatting on our internal chat with him about episodes. heee



Test said:


> POIDH


I have no idea what that means!


----------



## aindik

photoshopgrl said:


> I know! I get made fun of at work because of all the TV I watch and there's one guy there that watches almost all the shows I watch so I'm always chatting on our internal chat with him about episodes. heee
> 
> I have no idea what that means!


I surmise Pics Or It Didn't Happen.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

photoshopgrl said:


> I have no idea what that means!


Pictures Or It Didn't Happen.

Yes, we want more pictures of your boobs.


----------



## photoshopgrl

DreadPirateRob said:


> Pictures Or It Didn't Happen.
> 
> Yes, we want more pictures of your boobs.


More indicates you have _some._


----------



## DreadPirateRob

photoshopgrl said:


> More indicates you have _some._


Don't you remember the avatar kerfluffle a few months back?


----------



## photoshopgrl

DreadPirateRob said:


> Don't you remember the avatar kerfluffle a few months back?


I do, however, even in the bigger version you cannot see them!


----------



## DreadPirateRob

I was just riffing on that when I said "more", since you had guys bending over backwards asking for them back then.


----------



## markb

DreadPirateRob said:


> Same interview, different website hosting it.
> 
> Kinda makes it hard to take the interviewer seriously when he clearly didn't even understand a good portion of the import of the finale (i.e. he didn't realize that the events on the Island were real).


I stopped watching after a whole minute, because the interviewer was still blabbering on. How long did he go?


----------



## gchance

It's funny when we talk about rewatches, especially when the TNG rewatch was so successful. 

Greg


----------



## JYoung

DreadPirateRob said:


> Same interview, different website hosting it.
> 
> Kinda makes it hard to take the interviewer seriously when he clearly didn't even understand a good portion of the import of the finale (i.e. he didn't realize that the events on the Island were real).


I must admit, I had to pause the video for a minute in order to eyeroll and facepalm when he said that.


----------



## mostman

Oh man. This thread. I went back and read the whole thing. Funny to read stuff you wrote some years ago - isn't it?

Edit: Just realized I've been a member on this community for 12 years. That's pretty cool. 

Btw - Lost is still one of my all time favorites. Such a bold show for its time. Still bold when you consider it was on ABC. Now we need to depend on cable channels like AMC, FX, and HBO to provide this quality. Perhaps broadcast really is dead.


----------



## gchance

mostman said:


> Oh man. This thread. I went back and read the whole thing. Funny to read stuff you wrote some years ago - isn't it?
> 
> Edit: Just realized I've been a member on this community for 12 years. That's pretty cool.


The archives are a wonder to behold for us longtime members. I love going through the old posts. The funniest one is when you see a thread bump, don't realize it's a bump and read the first post, then formulate a response in your head... only to find that a couple posts down, you responded to it 3 years ago, and posted the SAME EXACT THING you were just formulating in your head. That's happened to me more than a couple times.



> Btw - Lost is still one of my all time favorites. Such a bold show for its time. Still bold when you consider it was on ABC. Now we need to depend on cable channels like AMC, FX, and HBO to provide this quality. Perhaps broadcast really is dead.


People were saying broadcast was dead before Lost came around, I think the difference is that with broadcast the good-to-bad ratio is just a lot higher. Cable's had some stinkers, too, I immediately think of Camelot. When it premiered, I absolutely loved it for a couple episodes, but Game of Thrones blew it so much out of the water that I completely lost interest. The quality difference was HUGE.

It was stated earlier, but I'll rephrase: shows like Lost that capture our imaginations and make us talk about it with reverence (or hatred) 3 years after it goes off the air only come around once in a decade.

Greg


----------



## jkeegan

Steveknj said:


> BTW...it feels good to participate in a Lost thread again


:up:


----------



## wprager

I've re-watched it twice with my sons. 10 is way too young. First time I re-watched I started with both of them (14 & 12) and the 12 year-old dropped out after the second episode -- he almost dropped out at the pilot, too intense. When he was 13-1/2 all three of us re-watched it. Couple of days ago I went to youtube looking for that compilation of all the times that Hurley said "Dude" (found a S1-5 one and it went up to something like 268). Followed that up with Sawyer's nicknames and Desmond's "Brotha", then some bloopers and other stuff. Now my wife is almost up for a re-watch. I think all our shows are done for the summer so it's as good a time as any. Well, we still have Doctor Who -- just watched "Blink" last night, so we have a long way to go.

And there's no way I am disappointed with the ending. Could it have been different? For sure. Did it ruin it for me? No way!


----------



## sushikitten

I was planning on rewatching (even bought the Blu Rays) until I realized the ending (not specifically the finale, even though I didn't love it) didn't wrap up all the mysteries like I had hoped. I sold the set.


----------



## Steveknj

gchance said:


> The archives are a wonder to behold for us longtime members. I love going through the old posts. The funniest one is when you see a thread bump, don't realize it's a bump and read the first post, then formulate a response in your head... only to find that a couple posts down, you responded to it 3 years ago, and posted the SAME EXACT THING you were just formulating in your head. That's happened to me more than a couple times.


I do the same thing...but, I've also started taking the opposite side of it as well, and realized the thread was 3 years old, read back what I said before and realized how wrong I was!! That's kind of odd too.



> People were saying broadcast was dead before Lost came around, I think the difference is that with broadcast the good-to-bad ratio is just a lot higher. Cable's had some stinkers, too, I immediately think of Camelot. When it premiered, I absolutely loved it for a couple episodes, but Game of Thrones blew it so much out of the water that I completely lost interest. The quality difference was HUGE.
> 
> It was stated earlier, but I'll rephrase: shows like Lost that capture our imaginations and make us talk about it with reverence (or hatred) 3 years after it goes off the air only come around once in a decade.
> 
> Greg


Here's the good and the bad about Lost. The good is, that the show was so compelling that, outside of reality TV like Survivor or Idol, it became the first real water cooler show on network TV since Seinfeld. But the flip side is that EVERY network tried to imitate it and because almost all of those imitations were horribly bad, it killed off serialized TV on the networks as a viable alternative to all the procedurals that are successful now. How many of us now are not willing to give one a chance for fear of it getting canceled once you are knee deep in it? Lost set the standard so high that all of these series are inevitably compared to it.


----------



## Steveknj

wprager said:


> I've re-watched it twice with my sons. 10 is way too young. First time I re-watched I started with both of them (14 & 12) and the 12 year-old dropped out after the second episode -- he almost dropped out at the pilot, too intense. When he was 13-1/2 all three of us re-watched it. Couple of days ago I went to youtube looking for that compilation of all the times that Hurley said "Dude" (found a S1-5 one and it went up to something like 268). Followed that up with Sawyer's nicknames and Desmond's "Brotha", then some bloopers and other stuff. Now my wife is almost up for a re-watch. I think all our shows are done for the summer so it's as good a time as any. Well, we still have Doctor Who -- just watched "Blink" last night, so we have a long way to go.
> 
> And there's no way I am disappointed with the ending. Could it have been different? For sure. Did it ruin it for me? No way!


The thing with the ending is, it was like having a four course meal of all the foods you love, and are expecting creme brulet for dessert and all you got was a cookie. Well I like cookies, but it was a let down from the fancy dessert I was expecting.

To me the whole last season (from the finale of the season before to the end) was disappointing in the storyline, but the execution of what it was, was excellent.


----------



## philw1776

DreadPirateRob said:


> Kinda makes it hard to take the interviewer seriously when he clearly didn't even understand a good portion of the import of the finale (i.e. he didn't realize that* the events on the Island were rea*l).


Whoa! Even 2 years later after LOST ended this is the 1st time I found out that LOST (the Island part) was real! 

And all this time I thought LOST was fiction. Gotta luv the Internet.


----------



## gchance




----------



## DreadPirateRob

philw1776 said:


> Whoa! Even 2 years later after LOST ended this is the 1st time I found out that LOST (the Island part) was real!
> 
> And all this time I thought LOST was fiction. Gotta luv the Internet.




Don't be obtuse.

The interviewer proclaimed himself to be this devoted fanboy of the show who watched everything and basically held himself out to be "the voice" for everyone who was disappointed with how the show ended, and yet he misunderstood the entire nature of the last season.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

Steveknj said:


> The thing with the ending is, it was like having a four course meal of all the foods you love, and are expecting creme brulet for dessert and all you got was a cookie. Well I like cookies, but it was a let down from the fancy dessert I was expecting.


I get it, but then again I don't, at least not really, because I think that people like you would have never been satisfied. As Damon Lindelof points out in that interview linked above, one of the very worst scenes from anything ever is when the Architect explains everything in the last Matrix movie. Talk about robbing all of the joy of what was a very cool concept. There was no way to answer all of the mysteries and questions that had been raised by the show, at least not in a way that would have been satisfying dramatically and artistically.

Here's another analogy: ever picked up and took a drink out of a glass of iced tea, but when you took the drink you were expecting it to be Coke? Now, you may love iced tea as much as you love Coke, but at that moment the iced tea is going to taste like the worst Coke in the world... at least until you realize it was never Coke to begin with, and it is in its own right a damned fine glass of iced tea. To me, that's the finale - it may not have been quite what you were expecting it to be, but once that shock/disappointment wears off, you realize that it was never suppposed to be Coke. It was just supposed to be a helluva glass of iced tea.


----------



## gchance

DreadPirateRob said:


> Here's another analogy: ever picked up and took a drink out of a glass of iced tea, but when you took the drink you were expecting it to be Coke?


No, but once I took a drink of what I expected to be Pepsi, only to find out it was Bud Light. That one was pretty weird.

Greg


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

The problem I had with the ending (and the Lindelof interview kind of confirmed it) is that it had little to do with most of the show. I think he believed that all the stuff with the hatch, the Dharma Initiative, the time traveling, etc., was just unimportant filler. To me, and I think to a lot of people, it was the core of the show. But the ending had nothing to do with any of that. The sixth season could just as easily have been the second season or the third or fourth. Nothing that happened between the first and sixth seasons really mattered in the end. But it sure FELT like it mattered at the time.

To say "we knew how it was going to end all along" on a show like this SHOULD mean a whole lot more than "Jack is lying on the beach, closes his eyes, and dies." If that's all they wanted to do, then they should have tossed out all the, ahem, good stuff, and just made a two-season show about people in Purgatory.


----------



## getreal

DreadPirateRob said:


> Here's another analogy: ever picked up and took a drink out of a glass of iced tea, but when you took the drink you were expecting it to be Coke?


Great analogy!

Ever seen a nice glass of golden apple juice that got you drooling for a sip, when you remembered that you were at the doctor's office?


----------



## betts4

gchance said:


>


WHEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## betts4

Oh, and Sawyer is HAWT!!!!!


----------



## MikeMar

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The problem I had with the ending (and the Lindelof interview kind of confirmed it) is that it had little to do with most of the show. I think he believed that all the stuff with the hatch, the Dharma Initiative, the time traveling, etc., was just unimportant filler. To me, and I think to a lot of people, it was the core of the show. But the ending had nothing to do with any of that. The sixth season could just as easily have been the second season or the third or fourth. Nothing that happened between the first and sixth seasons really mattered in the end. But it sure FELT like it mattered at the time.
> 
> To say "we knew how it was going to end all along" on a show like this SHOULD mean a whole lot more than "Jack is lying on the beach, closes his eyes, and dies." If that's all they wanted to do, then they should have tossed out all the, ahem, good stuff, and just made a two-season show about people in Purgatory.


It's the journey not the destination


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

MikeMar said:


> It's the journey not the destination


But it was a journey on which they kept saying along the way, "Wait until you see the destination! It'll be so cool! We have a GREAT destination in mind, since the beginning!" And then at the end they said, "April Fool! It was just the journey. Got ya!"


----------



## JMikeD

I would have had no problem with the ending save that the writers/producers made several statements early on that all the events would have a rational explanation (unless I misunderstood).

Well, they didn't have a rational explanation. 

Mike


----------



## tivoboyjr

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But it was a journey on which they kept saying along the way, "Wait until you see the destination! It'll be so cool! We have a GREAT destination in mind, since the beginning!" And then at the end they said, "April Fool! It was just the journey. Got ya!"


That was similar to my complaint. People saying the finale was bad were missing the point. We were told how the ending had been carefully plotted out and there would be some resolution to the many questions that had been raised. Instead, the show went off the rails somewhere around season 5 (and way off in season 6) and there was no good way to wrap it up. The finale was about as good as it could be given that seasons 5 and 6 were kind of a mess. And all of the stuff that seemed to matter so much in the first few seasons didn't matter much at all, as it turns out. The show was really about man-in-black, man-in-white, mommy and the magical cave. And the Lostaways (tm photoshopgrl) weren't in purgatory in the beginning but they were in the end, which is OK because when the producers said "they aren't in purgatory" what they meant was in the beginning of the show and they could put them in purgatory later since no one would think that was a cop-out or anything.


----------



## Steveknj

DreadPirateRob said:


> I get it, but then again I don't, at least not really, because I think that people like you would have never been satisfied. As Damon Lindelof points out in that interview linked above, one of the very worst scenes from anything ever is when the Architect explains everything in the last Matrix movie. Talk about robbing all of the joy of what was a very cool concept. There was no way to answer all of the mysteries and questions that had been raised by the show, at least not in a way that would have been satisfying dramatically and artistically.
> 
> Here's another analogy: ever picked up and took a drink out of a glass of iced tea, but when you took the drink you were expecting it to be Coke? Now, you may love iced tea as much as you love Coke, but at that moment the iced tea is going to taste like the worst Coke in the world... at least until you realize it was never Coke to begin with, and it is in its own right a damned fine glass of iced tea. To me, that's the finale - it may not have been quite what you were expecting it to be, but once that shock/disappointment wears off, you realize that it was never suppposed to be Coke. It was just supposed to be a helluva glass of iced tea.


Good analogy. Yes that's how I felt. In retrospect, I think the ending was really good. At the time though, because I didn't like the turn the series took (i.e. the whole thing being a game between Jacob and MIB), I found the whole last season disappointing. For what it was, it was still compelling TV, but the story didn't go as I had hoped.

I kind of look at the ending a lot like I do the Seinfeld finale. When I watched it the first time, it was like WTF, but over time, I've watched it and realized, it was really pretty good.

But you're wrong, had the series not taken that turn, I would have been TOTALLY satisfied. Solving every mystery was not paramount for me, as long as the major ones were.


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The problem I had with the ending (and the Lindelof interview kind of confirmed it) is that it had little to do with most of the show. I think he believed that all the stuff with the hatch, the Dharma Initiative, the time traveling, etc., was just unimportant filler. To me, and I think to a lot of people, it was the core of the show. But the ending had nothing to do with any of that. The sixth season could just as easily have been the second season or the third or fourth. Nothing that happened between the first and sixth seasons really mattered in the end. But it sure FELT like it mattered at the time.
> 
> To say "we knew how it was going to end all along" on a show like this SHOULD mean a whole lot more than "Jack is lying on the beach, closes his eyes, and dies." If that's all they wanted to do, then they should have tossed out all the, ahem, good stuff, and just made a two-season show about people in Purgatory.


This. Although Jack on the beach dying...no problem with that. What I agree with is that because of the turn it took, it did make what we saw during season 1 through 5 unimportant, and what we saw during those seasons WAS Lost. What we saw during S6, was something completely different.


----------



## Steveknj

betts4 said:


> Oh, and Sawyer is HAWT!!!!!


Anyone else think we were going to see him ALL over TV and probably starring in a new show over the last 2 years? I've seen him guest on one or two shows, but nothing major.


----------



## betts4

Steveknj said:


> Anyone else think we were going to see him ALL over TV and probably starring in a new show over the last 2 years? I've seen him guest on one or two shows, but nothing major.


I thought that about a few others - Jack, Kate, Locke...

Hawaii 5-0 gave us Locke and Jin. Hurley is a support character on...can't think of the show - something about the prison.

I was always waiting for Scooby doo to pop out here -


----------



## philw1776

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The problem I had with the ending (and the Lindelof interview kind of confirmed it) is that it had little to do with most of the show. I think he believed that all the stuff with the hatch, the Dharma Initiative, the time traveling, etc., was just unimportant filler. To me, and I think to a lot of people, it was the core of the show. *But the ending had nothing to do with any of that. The sixth season could just as easily have been the second season or the third or fourth. Nothing that happened between the first and sixth seasons really mattered in the end. * But it sure FELT like it mattered at the time.
> 
> To say "we knew how it was going to end all along" on a show like this *SHOULD mean a whole lot more than "Jack is lying on the beach, closes his eyes, and dies." If that's all they wanted to do, then they should have tossed out all the, ahem, good stuff, and just made a two-season show about people in Purgatory.*


Spot on.

To those saying it's about the journey, not the destination then why let the ending/destination render the journey meaningless? The sudden emphasis on the wackjob brothers out of the blue in half of S6 detracted from all the varied interesting wayposts previous in the heretofore fascinating journey. Made most of them moot. Doing so makes re-viewing a waste of time. Had the writers had something to say in S6 about at least SOME of the preceding phenomena it would have been a treasure to re-view the entire series looking for hints. But not so with the way they chose to end it with their "Look! A Squirrel!" distraction from the sad fact that they too really did not have a plan.


----------



## Steveknj

betts4 said:


> I thought that about a few others - Jack, Kate, Locke...
> 
> Hawaii 5-0 gave us Locke and Jin. *Hurley is a support character on...can't think of the show - something about the prison.*
> 
> I was always waiting for Scooby doo to pop out here -


Alcatraz


----------



## betts4

photoshopgrl said:


> Which board? I was on losttv-forum and some long name on yuku boards before that. Then pretty much I had to get a grip on reality. So then I just vaguely read that board and the fuselage board.


Fuselage was too big and too busy for me.

My friends were on Tvtome.com before it became Tv.com. I think I am remembering the tvtome correctly. Anyway we were on tvtome for maybe ahalf a season and then it changed to tv.com and we were on that for awhile but were not really happy and then one of us started a board via proboards. Called it -LOST: The Caves & The Beach (back when there was a cave and a beach). There was a core group of about 30 of us that met every week online to discuss stuff and share what we had seen on other boards. Now about 10 of us are still friends on FB. I liken it to a really small TCF. We were not just LOST friends, but that is what got us together.


----------



## betts4

And Jack, on the ground looking up....again.


----------



## Steveknj

philw1776 said:


> Spot on.
> 
> To those saying it's about the journey, not the destination then why let the ending/destination render the journey meaningless? The sudden emphasis on the wackjob brothers out of the blue in half of S6 detracted from all the varied interesting wayposts previous in the heretofore fascinating journey. Made most of them moot. Doing so makes re-viewing a waste of time. Had the writers had something to say in S6 about at least SOME of the preceding phenomena it would have been a treasure to re-view the entire series looking for hints. But not so with the way they chose to end it with their "Look! A Squirrel!" distraction from the sad fact that they too really did not have a plan.


During S1-S5 we weren't even sure that Jacob was real and I think a lot of us were leaning toward it being another lie Ben was telling to manipulate the Losties. Where we all got upset is that a fairly minor character for 5 seasons turns out to be the WHOLE reason the whole thing existed. Again, those those first 5 seasons were some of the most compelling TV ever, but....in the end, as this post says, it really was meaningless.

Perhaps if they introduced Jacob as a real character earlier in the series instead of him being a "what if", I could have appreciated the last season better.

And again, it feels good talking about this again


----------



## tivoboyjr

Steveknj said:


> During S1-S5 we weren't even sure that Jacob was real and I think a lot of us were leaning toward it being another lie Ben was telling to manipulate the Losties. Where we all got upset is that a fairly minor character for 5 seasons turns out to be the WHOLE reason the whole thing existed. Again, those those first 5 seasons were some of the most compelling TV ever, but....in the end, as this post says, it really was meaningless.
> 
> Perhaps if they introduced Jacob as a real character earlier in the series instead of him being a "what if", I could have appreciated the last season better.
> 
> And again, it feels good talking about this again


Yeah, I was happier with the show back when I thought Ben had made up Jacob so it would appear that he had a boss telling him what to do (when he really didn't).


----------



## astrohip

http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/we-have-to-go-back-great-lost-scenes-2-years-later

From Alan Sepinwall...



> So rather than analyze some more, I thought I'd do something simpler, and hopefully more fun, and pick out a collection of some of my favorite scenes from six seasons of "Lost" for you to enjoy if you're feeling similarly nostalgic today. These aren't all of the best scenes ever, or any kind of representative sample; it's just a handful of moments that instantly came to mind when I was recalling how much fun I had watching the adventures of Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Locke, Hurley and friends over the years. I'm sure you all have your favorites, and if you want to discuss them (or link to them) in the comments, by all means, go for it.


----------



## tivoboyjr

astrohip said:


> From Alan Sepinwall...


Thanks for the link! That was great. I loved this show so much. Please disregard any negative comments I may have made above.


----------



## sushikitten

philw1776 said:


> Spot on.
> 
> To those saying it's about the journey, not the destination then why let the ending/destination render the journey meaningless? *The sudden emphasis on the wackjob brothers out of the blue in half of S6 detracted from all the varied interesting wayposts previous in the heretofore fascinating journey. Made most of them moot. Doing so makes re-viewing a waste of time. *Had the writers had something to say in S6 about at least SOME of the preceding phenomena it would have been a treasure to re-view the entire series looking for hints. But not so with the way they chose to end it with their "Look! A Squirrel!" distraction from the sad fact that they too really did not have a plan.


This. Exactly.


----------



## photoshopgrl

Steveknj said:


> Anyone else think we were going to see him ALL over TV and probably starring in a new show over the last 2 years? I've seen him guest on one or two shows, but nothing major.


I'm rather shocked we haven't. He's attractive and a good actor and was on a mega hit show. You'd think he would have had scripts falling out of his pockets.



betts4 said:


> Fuselage was too big and too busy for me.
> 
> My friends were on Tvtome.com before it became Tv.com. I think I am remembering the tvtome correctly. Anyway we were on tvtome for maybe ahalf a season and then it changed to tv.com and we were on that for awhile but were not really happy and then one of us started a board via proboards. Called it -LOST: The Caves & The Beach (back when there was a cave and a beach). There was a core group of about 30 of us that met every week online to discuss stuff and share what we had seen on other boards. Now about 10 of us are still friends on FB. I liken it to a really small TCF. We were not just LOST friends, but that is what got us together.


I never went there but now I'm sad I had no close group of friends. The closest I've ever been with anyone I met online was my DMB folks that we still meet up at shows.



astrohip said:


> http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/we-have-to-go-back-great-lost-scenes-2-years-later
> 
> From Alan Sepinwall...


Great!!!

Now I think I need to find time to watch again. One of the few series I own the entire thing of.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

photoshopgrl said:


> I'm rather shocked we haven't. He's attractive and a good actor and was on a mega hit show. You'd think he would have had scripts falling out of his pockets.


I have this image of him lounging on a beach somewhere, drinking tequila and smoking joints rolled with $100 bills...


----------



## photoshopgrl

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I have this image of him lounging on a beach somewhere, drinking tequila and smoking joints rolled with $100 bills...


Josh or Sawyer?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

photoshopgrl said:


> Josh or Sawyer?


To me, there is no difference.

He'll have to have another memorable role or two under his belt before I can be bothered to distinguish.


----------



## photoshopgrl

Rob Helmerichs said:


> To me, there is no difference.
> 
> He'll have to have another memorable role or two under his belt before I can be bothered to distinguish.


You have a point.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

He was good in a bit part at the beginning of the latest Mission Impossible movie as another IMF agent, and I dug him as Black Rider in the 2nd _Community_ paintball ep. I would bet he's probably tired of 6 straight seasons of series work, and is taking a break. He was in the biz for a long time before breaking out, so he's probably used to living below his means.

So yeah, he's probably up to what Rob suggested.


----------



## betts4

photoshopgrl said:


> I never went there but now I'm sad I had no close group of friends. The closest I've ever been with anyone I met online was my DMB folks that we still meet up at shows.


Wish I had known you then. Would have been happy to invite you!!


----------



## photoshopgrl

betts4 said:


> Wish I had known you then. Would have been happy to invite you!!


:up:


----------



## gchance

betts4 said:


> Wish I had known you then. Would have been happy to invite you!!


Hah, you invited me, but I never did anything there. Interestingly enough, I did use tvtome.com, and loved it, but when it became tv.com all their javascript add-ons made it slow as hell, so I stopped using it.

Greg


----------



## betts4

gchance said:


> Hah, you invited me, but I never did anything there. Interestingly enough, I did use tvtome.com, and loved it, but when it became tv.com all their javascript add-ons made it slow as hell, so I stopped using it.
> 
> Greg


That's why we moved to another site. Besides it was full of people that would just log on and say "that sucked" or "that was awesome" and not really discuss the episode.


----------



## wprager

Steveknj said:


> This. Although Jack on the beach dying...no problem with that. What I agree with is that because of the turn it took, it did make what we saw during season 1 through 5 unimportant, and what we saw during those seasons WAS Lost. What we saw during S6, was something completely different.


What we saw during S1-4 *was* important. Those experiences (Island time and flashbacks) had shaped them all into the people they became, and explained the decisions they all made. Many here were predicting that Hurley would become the eventual Island protector and, guess what -- he did. We predicted it because that's the path the character was on for all those seasons, and it led him - inexorably (I *liked* The Architect's speech) - to the events in the finale.


----------



## Figaro

Last night, after several months, I completed re-watching the entire series courtesy of Amazon Prime video. I have to say I enjoyed the series much more this time. I think I am too impatient to watch serials over a long period of time. I remember watching the first two seasons on DVD and loving them ( though I could have done with a fewer Charlies is a drug addict flashbacks), but when we switched to watching it "real time" for season three I felt that the story started to drag.

Watching it straight through though this time I really didn't feel the drag. There were certainly inconsistencies that bugged me but most of them were petty. However I do agree with a lot of the folks here, Rob H, in particular, about the direction season six took. The entire flash sideways thing just felt like a cop out/rip off. I just don't understand what they felt was the allure of that approach. While they had given themselves a lot of plot lines to resolve, I don't feel that they had written themselves into a corner. I just think they got tired and half assed the easy way out.

Season 6 really was like a completely different show. I hope it wasn't just dismissive arrogance of the fanbase. I certainly got that impression from the Mother's line in "Across the Sea" of "Every answer I give will just lead to another question" Jacob and Barry just scream cop out to me with the simplistic lets just make it about good and evil and here you go.

The finale was just, well lame. For me the finale is the end of Season 5. Juliet blowed it all up and everyone was fine. That leaves me with 5 seasons of some very compelling story telling and rightfully ignores the lame ending which was akin to a college kid on an all nighter just trying to wrap up his paper.


----------



## jamesl

I believe the writers always intended the island to be purgatory and the stories to be stories of redemptions and 2nd chances, who fails and who succeeds

I think that was their plan and they thought they could keep it a secret and make the big reveal in the end, "oh, they were always dead and the island was purgatory" 

but fans figured it out before the first season was over

so the writes couldn't say, "yeah, you got us, you figured it out, they all died in the plane crash and the island is purgatory" 

they would take away the surprise, the "where is it all leading?"

so the writers denied it and scrambled to come up with an alternate theme/plot 

but they could never get it going so they basically made it up as they went


----------



## Steveknj

Figaro said:


> Last night, after several months, I completed re-watching the entire series courtesy of Amazon Prime video. I have to say I enjoyed the series much more this time. I think I am too impatient to watch serials over a long period of time. I remember watching the first two seasons on DVD and loving them ( though I could have done with a fewer Charlies is a drug addict flashbacks), but when we switched to watching it "real time" for season three I felt that the story started to drag.
> 
> Watching it straight through though this time I really didn't feel the drag. There were certainly inconsistencies that bugged me but most of them were petty. However I do agree with a lot of the folks here, Rob H, in particular, about the direction season six took. The entire flash sideways thing just felt like a cop out/rip off. I just don't understand what they felt was the allure of that approach. While they had given themselves a lot of plot lines to resolve, I don't feel that they had written themselves into a corner. I just think they got tired and half assed the easy way out.
> 
> Season 6 really was like a completely different show. I hope it wasn't just dismissive arrogance of the fanbase. I certainly got that impression from the Mother's line in "Across the Sea" of "Every answer I give will just lead to another question" Jacob and Barry just scream cop out to me with the simplistic lets just make it about good and evil and here you go.
> 
> The finale was just, well lame. For me the finale is the end of Season 5. Juliet blowed it all up and everyone was fine. That leaves me with 5 seasons of some very compelling story telling and rightfully ignores the lame ending which was akin to a college kid on an all nighter just trying to wrap up his paper.


I think your description of S6 is consistent with what most of us posted here. To me, it felt like a different show, and it completely made S1-5 feel irrelevant and unimportant to the whole scheme of things. That said, in context to the rest of the SEASON, I felt the ending wasn't that bad. In context to the whole series, not so much. I kind of agree, Juliet blowing up, almost makes more sense as the series finale to Lost 1.0 (the first 5 intertwining seasons) and the actual series ender is more like that of Lost 2.0. But it was what it was. There have been few series on TV that lead to true water cooler discussion (outside of these reality series). Lost was almost in a class by itself. While I'm disappointed in the last season, it's still one of my favorite TV shows of all time, and outside of perhaps Fringe, which just ended, the last must see the night of the episode series for me.


----------



## betts4

Steveknj said:


> I think your description of S6 is consistent with what most of us posted here. To me, it felt like a different show, and it completely made S1-5 feel irrelevant and unimportant to the whole scheme of things. That said, in context to the rest of the SEASON, I felt the ending wasn't that bad. In context to the whole series, not so much. I kind of agree, Juliet blowing up, almost makes more sense as the series finale to Lost 1.0 (the first 5 intertwining seasons) and the actual series ender is more like that of Lost 2.0. But it was what it was. There have been few series on TV that lead to true water cooler discussion (outside of these reality series). Lost was almost in a class by itself. While I'm disappointed in the last season, it's still one of my favorite TV shows of all time, and outside of perhaps Fringe, which just ended, the last must see the night of the episode series for me.


You said this almost how I was thinking it.

I will only add that I was disappointed so much in season 6 as I was thinking I had turned on to another show that had the same characters in it. I still enjoyed it and the interplay between all the characters and that's what kept me going and happy. The only reason the end bothered me was because they said for so long it wasn't purgatory, and then it seemed like they caved and made it that so the fans were happy (or could say 'told you so'). The characters were so well written, and acted and interacted that to watch their development over the years was fun. Trying to solved the mysteries was not as important for me which is why I wasn't so bothered by season 6 I think.


----------



## cmontyburns

betts4 said:


> You said this almost how I was thinking it.
> 
> I will only add that I was disappointed so much in season 6 as I was thinking I had turned on to another show that had the same characters in it. I still enjoyed it and the interplay between all the characters and that's what kept me going and happy. The only reason the end bothered me was because they said for so long it wasn't purgatory, and then it seemed like they caved and made it that so the fans were happy (or could say 'told you so').


But it wasn't purgatory. Everything that happened on the island occurred when the characters were _alive_. The very end, in the church, happened years later when they were all dead.


----------



## betts4

cmontyburns said:


> But it wasn't purgatory. Everything that happened on the island occurred when the characters were _alive_. The very end, in the church, happened years later when they were all dead.


No, no I know that. I meant at the end. Sorry I wrote it wrong. At the end, it was like they tossed that in at the last minute sort of.


----------



## cmontyburns

Figaro said:


> However I do agree with a lot of the folks here, Rob H, in particular, about the direction season six took. The entire flash sideways thing just felt like a cop out/rip off. I just don't understand what they felt was the allure of that approach. While they had given themselves a lot of plot lines to resolve, I don't feel that they had written themselves into a corner. I just think they got tired and half assed the easy way out.
> 
> Season 6 really was like a completely different show. I hope it wasn't just dismissive arrogance of the fanbase. I certainly got that impression from the Mother's line in "Across the Sea" of "Every answer I give will just lead to another question" Jacob and Barry just scream cop out to me with the simplistic lets just make it about good and evil and here you go.
> 
> The finale was just, well lame. For me the finale is the end of Season 5. Juliet blowed it all up and everyone was fine. That leaves me with 5 seasons of some very compelling story telling and rightfully ignores the lame ending which was akin to a college kid on an all nighter just trying to wrap up his paper.


It fascinates me how dismissive people often are about the massive effort required to put on a TV show like this. There was nothing "half-assed" or "easy" about any season of Lost including season 6. I fully believe that Cuse and Lindelof & Co. told exactly the story they planned to tell in the end, the way they wanted to tell it. You may not like their choices -- and I agree that some criticism is warranted -- but to imply they blew it off is silly, not to mention presumptuous.


----------



## philw1776

cmontyburns said:


> It fascinates me how dismissive people often are about the massive effort required to put on a TV show like this. There was nothing "half-assed" or "easy" about any season of Lost including season 6. I fully believe that Cuse and Lindelof & Co. told exactly the story they planned to tell in the end, the way they wanted to tell it. You may not like their choices -- and I agree that some criticism is warranted -- but to imply they blew it off is silly, not to mention presumptuous.


So you're saying that the writers deliberately and with forethought decided to tell a season 6 story that made all the adventures of the 1st 5 seasons close to moot. They decided to introduce major characters and a storyline tangential to the prior seasons' happenings. Even more damning to say that than to claim a lazy, tired with the show cop out.

I am speaking about the Jacob MIB backstory and present day conflict. The LA/purgatory story is different, a separate issue. I could see that denouement as always having been their intention. It was a nice recap and emotionally fun to see characters again we had thought were lost to us, even for those of us not inclined to fantasy or spiritual story lines. They did that part well even though it was not my choice.


----------



## Steveknj

cmontyburns said:


> It fascinates me how dismissive people often are about the massive effort required to put on a TV show like this. There was nothing "half-assed" or "easy" about any season of Lost including season 6. I fully believe that Cuse and Lindelof & Co. told exactly the story they planned to tell in the end, the way they wanted to tell it. You may not like their choices -- and I agree that some criticism is warranted -- but to imply they blew it off is silly, not to mention presumptuous.


Maybe, maybe not. I think there was an article floating around, maybe from Sepinwell's book that talks about changes they made based on the popularity of characters etc. I think it said that had had that final scene in mind from the beginning but not how the journey went. I don't think this has anything to do with how hard or easy it is to put on the series. And if this is exactly the story they REALLY wanted, then they must have wanted to insult a large portion of the audience along with it. It was almost as if they stuck up their middle finger at the audience and said....what you watched fro 5 years means nothing...here's the REAL story. I think that's why people got upset. It's not dismissive of what they were doing, it's that we just didn't like it, or get why they went that way. There's no reason they couldn't stick to a story that melded with what we had seen for 5 years and it ending with that SAME final scene.

Yeah, I know, a lot of it is sour grapes that we didn't get the ending we might have wanted. I get that. But I hate the feeling that it felt like I wasted 5 years on a story that meant nothing at the end of the day. In some respects it felt like a full season's worth of the last episode of St. Elsewhere, where it was revealed that the whole SERIES was in the head of an autistic child.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

Sour grapes is the main thing I get from your post.


----------



## aindik

If anyone "likes" LOST on Facebook, they are starting to post events on their Facebook timeline that happened in the show. Could get interesting if they get into the time travel events.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Steveknj said:


> Yeah, I know, a lot of it is sour grapes that we didn't get the ending we might have wanted. I get that. But I hate the feeling that it felt like I wasted 5 years on a story that meant nothing at the end of the day. In some respects it felt like a full season's worth of the last episode of St. Elsewhere, where it was revealed that the whole SERIES was in the head of an autistic child.





DreadPirateRob said:


> Sour grapes is the main thing I get from your post.


I get it, though.

I think what happened is they had something they wanted to do, and there were 2-3 seasons in it. The rest was, in their mind, just filler. But it was the filler that kept a lot of people (like Steve and me) coming back year after year. We thought the filler was what mattered. And when it turned out the filler was just...filler, we felt kind cheated.

I suspect if they could do it over again, they would do it differently. I suspect they really didn't get (until it was too late) that so many people were getting so deeply involved in their filler; that, to so many people, the filler WAS the show.

Great ride. Shame it ended in such a wreck.


----------



## Figaro

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I get it, though.
> 
> I think what happened is they had something they wanted to do, and there were 2-3 seasons in it. The rest was, in their mind, just filler. But it was the filler that kept a lot of people (like Steve and me) coming back year after year. We thought the filler was what mattered. And when it turned out the filler was just...filler, we felt kind cheated.
> 
> I suspect if they could do it over again, they would do it differently. I suspect they really didn't get (until it was too late) that so many people were getting so deeply involved in their filler; that, to so many people, the filler WAS the show.
> 
> Great ride. Shame it ended in such a wreck.


That's the what's so backwards and silly about this. What the writers thought was so important wasn't. Which is really pretty sad. If they didn't really care about the mythology they should have made the characters actually change somewhat. Up until the end, quite literally, the characters didn't really change much. Sure Jack had his crisis of faith after Juliet died but other than that he was the same broken person trying to fix things up until the very last episodes. The same goes for all of the other characters.

The filler was the only thing that ever changed. All the flashbacks, forwards, and sideways sequences ever did was reinforce who the characters were. If all they wanted to do was tell a story of redemption via epiphany, they could have done that in a two hour movie.

I still don't get the fact that even after they set an end date for the show, that they still ended up having to rush and ham fist the ending with the sloppy MIB and Jacob storyline. A rush job like that usually only happens when a show is unexpectedly cancelled and the writers have to rush to compress everything in.


----------



## Test

Has anyone cut the series so the scenes are in chronological order yet?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Test said:


> Has anyone cut the series so the scenes are in chronological order yet?


That would be quite the YouTube video!


----------



## WO312

Figaro said:


> .....I still don't get the fact that even after they set an end date for the show, that they still ended up having to rush and ham fist the ending with the sloppy MIB and Jacob storyline. A rush job like that usually only happens when a show is unexpectedly cancelled and the writers have to rush to compress everything in.


I totally agree with you. I actually thought it was pretty good how they intertwined two stories in the last season - what was happening live and what was happening in the purgatory story line. We were confused at times about what was happening but it made sense in the end when we realized there were two different stories. And I liked the purgatory ending.

But they sure botched the real time story line. They had plenty of hours available to tell a better story. The ending was fine with Jack dying on the island in the final scene, but getting there was botched.


----------



## danterner

Test said:


> Has anyone cut the series so the scenes are in chronological order yet?


I haven't viewed it, but there's a website called "Chronologically LOST" that seems to have done just that.


----------



## Test

danterner said:


> I haven't viewed it, but there's a website called "Chronologically LOST" that seems to have done just that.


Wow, I was just joking, but I shouldn't be surprised that someone did this and posted it online.

http://www.chronologicallylost.com/?m=1

I'll have to check the first few out


----------



## BitbyBlit

Steveknj said:


> I think your description of S6 is consistent with what most of us posted here. To me, it felt like a different show, and it completely made S1-5 feel irrelevant and unimportant to the whole scheme of things. That said, in context to the rest of the SEASON, I felt the ending wasn't that bad. In context to the whole series, not so much. I kind of agree, Juliet blowing up, almost makes more sense as the series finale to Lost 1.0 (the first 5 intertwining seasons) and the actual series ender is more like that of Lost 2.0. But it was what it was. There have been few series on TV that lead to true water cooler discussion (outside of these reality series). Lost was almost in a class by itself. While I'm disappointed in the last season, it's still one of my favorite TV shows of all time, and outside of perhaps Fringe, which just ended, the last must see the night of the episode series for me.


Interesting that you bring up Fringe, because while I didn't feel what you felt about Lost, I did feel that way about Fringe.

Ever since...



Spoiler



Peter stepped into the Machine


...I felt the show had lost its direction. I kept hoping they would eventually tie things together, but they never really did.

In the end, the acting was excellent and the story was emotionally satisfying, but the series never connected together the way I had hoped it would.


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I get it, though.
> 
> I think what happened is they had something they wanted to do, and there were 2-3 seasons in it. The rest was, in their mind, just filler. But it was the filler that kept a lot of people (like Steve and me) coming back year after year. We thought the filler was what mattered. And when it turned out the filler was just...filler, we felt kind cheated.
> 
> I suspect if they could do it over again, they would do it differently. I suspect they really didn't get (until it was too late) that so many people were getting so deeply involved in their filler; that, to so many people, the filler WAS the show.
> 
> Great ride. Shame it ended in such a wreck.


Exactly this. You know, all they needed to do was inject more about how important Jacob was during the first 5 seasons, then it wouldn't have seemed so out of the blue. For the first 5 seasons I thought that Jacob was mostly a figure of Ben's imagination. I thought he used Jacob as a way to justify his power and take the heat off his "less than stellar" decisions. You know, like "the devil made me do it". So at the end of S5, we learn that this whole thing is about Jacob, without a clue to his importance, it was really kind of a big change in the story. Anyway, it's all been said already.


----------



## Steveknj

BitbyBlit said:


> Interesting that you bring up Fringe, because while I didn't feel what you felt about Lost, I did feel that way about Fringe.
> 
> Ever since...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Peter stepped into the Machine
> 
> 
> ...I felt the show had lost its direction. I kept hoping they would eventually tie things together, but they never really did.
> 
> In the end, the acting was excellent and the story was emotionally satisfying, but the series never connected together the way I had hoped it would.


The thing about Fringe, is, from the very beginning, there didn't seem to be a single purpose to what they were doing, it was a bunch of story lines and each season there seemed to be something else. Only the last season did it seem they were really pointing at some specific ending. Lost ALWAYS seemed to be pointing to something, either getting off the island or, what is the meaning of the island (once they went back). So I was more ok with Fringe changing the storyline from season to season.


----------



## astrohip

And it was three years ago tonight...


----------



## gchance

astrohip said:


> And it was three years ago tonight...


----------



## DreadPirateRob

Guys... We have to go back.


----------



## rondotcom

DreadPirateRob said:


> Guys... We have to go back.


 We're not going to Guam, are we ...


----------



## mwhip

Saw in article on HuffPo today that read "Lost finale aired 3 years ago and people are still pissed" 

I got a chuckle from it.


----------



## Steveknj

mwhip said:


> Saw in article on HuffPo today that read "Lost finale aired 3 years ago and people are still pissed"
> 
> I got a chuckle from it.


I still have the last three episodes on my DVR....I just can't bring myself to delete them...even though I have all the seasons on DVD.

I'm surprised someone hasn't picked Lost up on syndication. I think I remember seeing them for awhile somewhere, but it's been at least 2 years. Seems like a natural to rerun on SyFy or even Chiller or Cloo


----------



## mwhip

Steveknj said:


> I still have the last three episodes on my DVR....I just can't bring myself to delete them...even though I have all the seasons on DVD.
> 
> I'm surprised someone hasn't picked Lost up on syndication. I think I remember seeing them for awhile somewhere, but it's been at least 2 years. Seems like a natural to rerun on SyFy or even Chiller or Cloo


Yeah but I bet JJ and company want a lot of $$$. Plus it is a hard show to watch in syndication I think.


----------



## astrohip

Steveknj said:


> I still have the last three episodes on my DVR....I just can't bring myself to delete them...even though I have all the seasons on DVD.
> 
> I'm surprised someone hasn't picked Lost up on syndication. I think I remember seeing them for awhile somewhere, but it's been at least 2 years. Seems like a natural to rerun on SyFy or even Chiller or Cloo


I have the last episode, the Finale. On 3 different TiVos. Just in case. Since it's not copy-protected, I can move it around every time I get a new one.

I remember at the time it was still airing, it was already being syndicated. I think it might have been on ABC also. Late night airings. Watched one or two, but you're right, it's not an easy show to drop in on. Maybe a start to finish viewing.

But I haven't seen it anywhere in years.


----------



## Steveknj

astrohip said:


> I have the last episode, the Finale. On 3 different TiVos. Just in case. Since it's not copy-protected, I can move it around every time I get a new one.
> 
> I remember at the time it was still airing, it was already being syndicated. I think it might have been on ABC also. Late night airings. Watched one or two, but you're right, it's not an easy show to drop in on. Maybe a start to finish viewing.
> 
> But I haven't seen it anywhere in years.


The ABC affiliate here in NY used to show it opposite SNL. Usually they were about a season behind, so it was nice to watch, because you kind of understood things that you didn't before.

Hmmmm...summer is here....maybe time for a rewatch?


----------



## jkeegan

Lost was such a damned good show...


----------



## Steveknj

jkeegan said:


> Lost was such a damned good show...


Totally agree. For all it's crazyness, it was a must watch for me. Probably the last show that I HAD to watch the night it was on.


----------



## gchance

jkeegan said:


> Lost was such a damned good show...





Steveknj said:


> Totally agree. For all it's crazyness, it was a must watch for me. Probably the last show that I HAD to watch the night it was on.


You guys are only posting because I posted a link to this thread. 

I miss it, too, on the way to work I was just thinking about the introduction of Ben, and how we all thought HE was Jacob for the longest time.

Greg


----------



## Steveknj

gchance said:


> You guys are only posting because I posted a link to this thread.
> 
> I miss it, too, on the way to work I was just thinking about the introduction of Ben, and how we all thought HE was Jacob for the longest time.
> 
> Greg


Well I posted because there was a new post in this thread 

Ben was such a sublimely evil character. You really didn't know what he was, or whether he was lying or telling the truth. And acted so well.


----------



## jkeegan

Steveknj said:


> Well I posted because there was a new post in this thread
> 
> Ben was such a sublimely evil character. You really didn't know what he was, or whether he was lying or telling the truth. And acted so well.


and I didn't see any link (not that I remember anyway), I posted because we TALKED about this thread (and it's post-count). 

And, because I miss Lost.


----------



## jkeegan

Man I miss this show...


----------



## cherry ghost

I loved it when it was on, but here have been so many good shows since Lost ended that I really don't miss it that much.


----------



## DUDE_NJX

In perspective, it had a CRAPLOAD of filler with an average overall storyline(s?)


----------



## Steveknj

I've sat down about 4 times to rewatch the series. I get about 5 or 6 episodes in and just stop. I loved it when it was on, and eventually might rewatch the whole thing, but there's so much else on, it's not that important.


----------



## gchance

jkeegan said:


> Man I miss this show...


You did that on purpose!

Greg


----------



## DavidTigerFan

To this day, only Justified makes me want to watch on a 15 minute delay like Lost did.


----------



## ihatecable

*I still think this is the best ending!*


----------



## stellie93

cherry ghost said:


> I loved it when it was on, but here have been so many good shows since Lost ended that I really don't miss it that much.


I must have missed all those shows that are as good as Lost. GoT is the only one I can think of.


----------



## cherry ghost

stellie93 said:


> I must have missed all those shows that are as good as Lost. GoT is the only one I can think of.


I must have missed where I said "as good."


----------



## gchance

stellie93 said:


> I must have missed all those shows that are as good as Lost. GoT is the only one I can think of.


You missed Breaking Bad?

Greg


----------



## betts4

jkeegan said:


> Man I miss this show...


Me three.


----------



## Steveknj

stellie93 said:


> I must have missed all those shows that are as good as Lost. GoT is the only one I can think of.


There hasn't been a scripted show on since Lost that I HAVE to watch day of, GoT included (although I try and watch early in the week if possible). Fringe was another one I tried to watch ASAP but didn't find the need to watch right away.


----------



## betts4

jkeegan said:


> Man I miss this show...


I miss the cast and the different storylines behind the characters and that they were not afraid to kill people off and whittle it down, and then not afraid to add some more interesting dynamics to the show and the eye candy (both male and female) and the twists to a plot and that you keep wondering whether it was planned or the writers or just making it up as they went along and......well you get the idea.


----------



## ihatecable

jkeegan said:


> Man I miss this show...


I miss seasons one thru five. Maybe even the first half of season six, but the second part of season six was a disaster.


----------



## philw1776

ihatecable said:


> *I still think this is the best ending!*


EPIC!

Makes far more sense than the faux creative last half of season six where suddenly nothing at all mattered for the last 5 1/2 years except the suddenly introduced dysfunctional relationship of two moronic brothers. That pissing in the pool ending is why I've never watched my Blu-Ray LOST collection.


----------



## ihatecable

I couldn't agree with you more!


----------



## DevdogAZ

ihatecable said:


> I miss seasons one thru five. Maybe even the first half of season six, but the second part of season six was a disaster.


I actually think the first half of S6 is worse, with all the crap at the Temple that was ultimately meaningless.


----------



## jkeegan

gchance said:


> You did that on purpose!
> 
> Greg


----------



## dianebrat

DevdogAZ said:


> I actually think the first half of S6 is worse, with all the crap at the Temple that was ultimately meaningless.


dunno, I like the temple fine, in fact slightly more than limbo-land


----------



## wprager

I've rewatched it twice with the boys, and am looking forward to when the girls are old enough to do it again with them. I feel sorry for those of you who still can't let go of your disappointment of the ending (for the record, I wasn't thrilled about it, but I managed to enjoy it nonetheless).

Enjoying rewatchingChuck right now, even though I know the ending coming up wasn't exactly how I would have preferred it.


----------



## Donbadabon

Lost Show Finale--All 3 Alternate Endings:


----------



## Howie

I miss Kate. What is she doing now? I notice Sawyer has a new show. I have it on a DVR but I haven't watched it yet.


----------



## philw1776

Howie said:


> I miss Kate. What is she doing now? I notice Sawyer has a new show. I have it on a DVR but I haven't watched it yet.


The show sucks and gets low ratings. Sadly, because I love the guy. And Kate. Gawd I miss her.


----------



## betts4

Actually, I think the show is getting better little by little. Probably not soon enough to save it though

I was at a science fiction convention last year and there was a guest that looked just like Hurley. I mean hair, body size, face and even the shirt and shorts.

A friend of mine went over to tell him what a great costume it was and ...lol the poor guy had no one idea what my friend was talking about. He was just a regular guy, not part of the convention. I still can't believe with the hair and body type that he hadn't heard it before.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Howie said:


> I miss Kate. What is she doing now?


I saw her on one of the late night shows a month or two ago promoting the new Hobbit film. She plays an elf in the movie. Not sure how big her part is, since I haven't seen the film.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

She had a pretty big part in the The Hobbit. As big/bigger than Legolas, and she had plenty of awesome action set-pieces. 

And, of course, she looked fantastic the entire time.


----------



## aindik

She was on a magazine cover recently and wasn't thrilled with how it came out.

http://www.eonline.com/news/487887/...men-s-health-magazine-discussing-her-rear-end


----------



## gchance

aindik said:


> She was on a magazine cover recently and wasn't thrilled with how it came out.
> 
> http://www.eonline.com/news/487887/...men-s-health-magazine-discussing-her-rear-end


I found this quote pretty funny.



> "Every woman is after a sort of classy image," the actress explained. "I didn't want T&A on my cover, it's a women's magazine. It's not Maxim."


You're right, Evangeline, it isn't. But this is.










Greg


----------



## betts4

gchance said:


> I found this quote pretty funny.
> 
> You're right, Evangeline, it isn't. But this is.


Her butt looks better on the Maxim cover!

And the pose is similar and yes, what else was she expecting when she posed like that for the other one.


----------



## aindik

betts4 said:


> Her butt looks better on the Maxim cover!
> 
> And the pose is similar and yes, what else was she expecting when she posed like that for the other one.


In fairness the Maxim cover is from 2006.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

In Henry Rothwell's brilliant tear-down of the movie Prometheus, he imagines a scrip[t conference between Ridley Scott and Prometheus writer/Lost co-creator Damon Lindelof:



> Ridley "Brilliant! But why? No, just brilliant! As long as it has lots of snappy informative dialogue."
> 
> Damon Lindelof "I don't really do that. I tend to just go with a baffling sequence of potentially interconnected events that looks as though it might be going somewhere, but isn't. That way everybody on the internet can argue about it for ages. That's the bit I like. People on the internet arguing about stuff for ages. I also love it when they say things like 'don't condemn it so quickly - this is maybe the first part of something bigger'. It makes me think 'oh yeah. that could be it. Maybe I'll write another one' and then people will argue about that on the internet too. For ages. Because I like that."


----------



## Silverman

Yes Rob, that is exactly the sick thinking that resulted in nothing in Lost coming to a conclusion. Nothing made sense, even for an "in purgatory" ending. Like the atomic bomb going off for instance, that whole plot line just dropped and those 2 old guys protecting the island hundreds of years, but yet Dharma set up there and drilled into it with them doing not a thing. 

I am glad word of this sick thinking by writers is getting out. I found it amazing when ABC came out with Alice in Wonderland they even said from the writers of Lost in promos!! Made me know it will never make sense or have an ending and guess what? Ratings are low and I think the connection to a badly written Lost helped do it in. After all the similar Wonderland show is doing much better. I hope those Lost writers never work again writing for anyone, that is my wish.


----------



## Steveknj

Silverman said:


> Yes Rob, that is exactly the sick thinking that resulted in nothing in Lost coming to a conclusion. Nothing made sense, even for an "in purgatory" ending. Like the atomic bomb going off for instance, that whole plot line just dropped and those 2 old guys protecting the island hundreds of years, but yet Dharma set up there and drilled into it with them doing not a thing.
> 
> I am glad word of this sick thinking by writers is getting out. I found it amazing when ABC came out with Alice in Wonderland they even said from the writers of Lost in promos!! Made me know it will never make sense or have an ending and guess what? Ratings are low and I think the connection to a badly written Lost helped do it in. After all the similar Wonderland show is doing much better. I hope those Lost writers never work again writing for anyone, that is my wish.


I've given up caring about this stuff anymore. The last season wasn't great and a lot of things didn't make sense at the end. But, it's still one of my top 10 TV shows of all time, and looking back a few years down the road, like the Seinfeld finale, it bothers me less and less. The WTF moments on Lost far outnumber any other series I ever watched (Game of Thrones is catching up, but not quite there yet). The fun of the series is you had NO idea which direction they were turning.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Oh, I think some (most) of the Lost writers are quite good, even brilliant. Including Lindelof.

But they should be on writing staffs, not running the show. Contributing, not controlling.


Steveknj said:


> The fun of the series is you had NO idea which direction they were turning.


What's even more fun (for me, at least) is when you have NO idea what direction they're turning. But afterward, you look back and think, "Oh, NOW I see where that came from." Not, "Huh. Guess they pulled THAT one out of their @$$."


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Oh, I think some (most) of the Lost writers are quite good, even brilliant. Including Lindelof.
> 
> But they should be on writing staffs, not running the show. Contributing, not controlling.
> 
> What's even more fun (for me, at least) is when you have NO idea what direction they're turning. But afterward, you look back and think, "Oh, NOW I see where that came from." Not, "Huh. Guess they pulled THAT one out of their @$$."


There was definitely some of both. When I think of Lost, I always say, I enjoyed the ride but the destination was disappointing. I think of it as a Cross Country trip to L.A. where all those places you visited on the way were so much better than the eventual destination.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Steveknj said:


> There was definitely some of both. When I think of Lost, I always say, I enjoyed the ride but the destination was disappointing. I think of it as a Cross Country trip to L.A. where all those places you visited on the way were so much better than the eventual destination.


Yeah, if they'd had the same writers but somebody like JMS in charge (but not actually writing himself) to keep an eye on the end-game (hell, to have one in the first place), Lost could have been one of the all-time great shows instead of something that was very entertaining for a few years, and pretty entertaining for a couple of years.


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, if they'd had the same writers but somebody like JMS in charge (but not actually writing himself) to keep an eye on the end-game (hell, to have one in the first place), Lost could have been one of the all-time great shows instead of something that was very entertaining for a few years, and pretty entertaining for a couple of years.


JMS?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Steveknj said:


> JMS?


J. Michael Something no one can ever remember so they just call him JMS. The guy who created Babylon 5. Legendary big-picture guy. Not so great at individual moments.


----------



## jkeegan

**** that. Lost > B5.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

jkeegan said:


> **** that. Lost > B5.


Oh, absolutely, in many (most) ways.

But in a few significant ways, B5 blows Lost out of the water. And those ways separate Lost from true greatness. If you take the many strengths of Lost, and add to it the few things that Lost was sadly lacking in but B5 nailed, you would have possibly the greatest show in the history of television. THat's all I was trying to say.


----------



## jkeegan

Ok.

But I'll say this - I was far happier with the ending to Lost than to that of B5.

You can try to blame it on higher ups all you want (for mucking with seasons etc and it not ending when they wanted), but the Lost writers went way out of their way to make sure they had a guaranteed end date before they started down that path. So it can be done, and B5 failed at that.

By the way, to whomever complained a few posts back about the bomb.. They did exactly what they had to with the bomb. They COULD NOT have it change anything - what happened happened.. Anything from the 2nd flight of Jack in the plane SHOULD have felt wrong - it was.

The ending was great.


----------



## brermike

jkeegan said:


> Ok.
> 
> But I'll say this - I was far happier with the ending to Lost than to that of B5.
> 
> You can try to blame it on higher ups all you want (for mucking with seasons etc and it not ending when they wanted), but the Lost writers went way out of their way to make sure they had a guaranteed end date before they started down that path. So it can be done, and B5 failed at that.
> 
> By the way, to whomever complained a few posts back about the bomb.. They did exactly what they had to with the bomb. They COULD NOT have it change anything - what happened happened.. Anything from the 2nd flight of Jack in the plane SHOULD have felt wrong - it was.
> 
> The ending was great.


I agree, completely.


----------



## philw1776

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In Henry Rothwell's brilliant tear-down of the movie Prometheus, he imagines a scrip[t conference between Ridley Scott and Prometheus writer/Lost co-creator Damon Lindelof:


That would be hilarious were it not so true. Can't believe I spent years with LOST and to a lesser and quicker extent BSG trying to figure out the deep meaning and underlying connections that didn't freakin' exist.


----------



## brermike

philw1776 said:


> That would be hilarious were it not so true. Can't believe I spent years with LOST and to a lesser and quicker extent BSG trying to figure out the deep meaning and underlying connections that didn't freakin' exist.


That's a shame. I still find both shows incredibly satisfying even in rewatches. But to each their own. Luckily, we're fortunate to have a plethora of great TV for everyone's tastes!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I think Lost and BG appeal most to people who like the individual moments, and not so much to people who want the moments to come together into something more.

And they were both shows that had an implicit promise that it _would _all come together, but failed to do so. Which makes them doubly disappointing to the latter type.


----------



## ct1

B5 was like a long game of chess where you would look back after a dozen moves and marvel at that weird move that put the pawn in just the right spot.

Lost is like a game of chess where you look back after the game is over and see that for some reason a bunch of pieces seem to have gotten knocked onto the floor.


----------



## Anubys

It shocked to find out that the writers of Breaking Bad made things up as they went along. So did the writers of LOST. BSG also made it up from one episode to the next. Only B5 was created knowing the major details beforehand.

BB worked out perfectly, LOST was so so, and BSG was a disaster. So my take on it is that it doesn't matter if "there is no plan" as long as the writers are good enough to make everything work. If you suck, you get BSG. If you're good, you get BB.


----------



## betts4

ct1 said:


> B5 was like a long game of chess where you would look back after a dozen moves and marvel at that weird move that put the pawn in just the right spot.
> 
> Lost is like a game of chess where you look back after the game is over and see that for some reason a bunch of pieces seem to have gotten knocked onto the floor.


I like this description. However I would add to the LOST one - "then you bend over, pick half up and add a few more from another game and keep going."


----------



## DevdogAZ

Anubys said:


> It shocked to find out that the writers of Breaking Bad made things up as they went along. So did the writers of LOST. BSG also made it up from one episode to the next. Only B5 was created knowing the major details beforehand.
> 
> BB worked out perfectly, LOST was so so, and BSG was a disaster. So my take on it is that it doesn't matter if "there is no plan" as long as the writers are good enough to make everything work. If you suck, you get BSG. If you're good, you get BB.


Not quite an apples to apples comparison. Breaking Bad had shorter seasons and Vince Gilligan was adamant that they "break" the story of the entire season before writing each of the scripts. This is why the seasons of BB are so well done.

But that's unusual in TV. Most shows will start writing in the early summer, and they'll have a handful of episodes written by the time the cast and crew come off hiatus and start filming. Most shows don't plan ahead because they barely have the ability to stay ahead of the shooting schedule, much less think multiple seasons into the future. And since the number of shows that make it past the first season is miniscule, it doesn't make economic sense for a writer to spend a lot of time developing a long-term plan for a show. Chances are, that time will end up wasted.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Anubys said:


> BB worked out perfectly, LOST was so so, and BSG was a disaster. So my take on it is that it doesn't matter if "there is no plan" as long as the writers are good enough to make everything work. If you suck, you get BSG. If you're good, you get BB.


And I think a lot of the reason for that was that BB was at heart a character study. They had a sense of where the characters were going; what happened along the way didn't matter so much for its own sake, just so far as it moved the characters along. But Lost and BG both pretended to be something they ended up not being (i.e., Great Mysteries To Be Solved). What happened mattered a lot more than the writers seemed to understand, given the way they chose to structure their stories.


----------



## aindik

Silverman said:


> I am glad word of this sick thinking by writers is getting out.


I don't disagree with a lot of what you said, but that's not a real quote from Damon Lindelof. You knew that, right?


----------



## JYoung

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And I think a lot of the reason for that was that BB was at heart a character study.


I'd say that Lost was one too.

I was surprised that people hadn't figured this out by Walkabout.
I'd see other people get consumed by "the mysteries of the Island" and I didn't give them a huge amount of thought because I was more interested in the characters.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

JYoung said:


> I'd say that Lost was one too.


But it wasn't presented as solely such. The "mysteries of the island" were given a TON of play, along with the "we had the ending planned from the beginning) statements. So having the mysetiers of the island mean nothing and the character study mean everything was a partial bait-and-switch. And kudos to you for not caring about the good stuff (), but some of us did, and I hope you can see that our deep disappointment was entirely justified from that perspective, just as was your unadulterated bliss.


----------



## JYoung

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But it wasn't presented as solely such. The "mysteries of the island" were given a TON of play, along with the "we had the ending planned from the beginning) statements. So having the mysetiers of the island mean nothing and the character study mean everything was a partial bait-and-switch. And kudos to you for not caring about the good stuff (), but some of us did, and I hope you can see that our deep disappointment was entirely justified from that perspective, just as was your unadulterated bliss.


In every interview that I saw or read with Cuse and Lindelof (dating back to the end of Season 1 or beginning of Season 2), they said that it was about the characters. So it's not like they were hiding that intent.

And it's not that I wasn't curious about the mysteries, I just didn't obsess about them.


----------



## philw1776

It's not obsessing about the mysteries. It's the fact that so many of them were a multiyear major part of the show's fabric. I never expected to have "answers" to most of the so-called mysteries but I did not expect to have the last part of Season 6 introduce a whole new story (the cretinous brothers story) that made most everything else that had transpired for years suddenly irrelevant.

I even would argue for keeping some mysteries unanswered. For example the inane reveal of what the smoke monster really was was far worse than never answering that specific detail. Leaving it as the "island's security system" was enough of an answer.


----------



## JYoung

We'll have to agree to disagree as I don't see how the brothers' story made anything before irrelevant.
Whether Cuse and Lindelof pulled Jacob and Smokey out of their butt or not at the end of Season 5, there were seeds sown in previous seasons.

To be fair, I do think the Temple subplot in Season 6 can go.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

JYoung said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree as I don't see how the brothers' story made anything before irrelevant.


When they became the central focus of the show, it made everything that seemed to be the central focus of the show up to that time irrelevant. The central mystery of the show became not what we had been watching for several years, but what they introduced near the end.


----------



## JYoung

Rob Helmerichs said:


> When they became the central focus of the show, it made everything that seemed to be the central focus of the show up to that time irrelevant. The central mystery of the show became not what we had been watching for several years, but what they introduced near the end.


As I said, the seeds were sown earlier.


----------



## Steveknj

philw1776 said:


> It's not obsessing about the mysteries. It's the fact that so many of them were a multiyear major part of the show's fabric. * I never expected to have "answers" to most of the so-called mysteries but I did not expect to have the last part of Season 6 introduce a whole new story (the cretinous brothers story) that made most everything else that had transpired for years suddenly irrelevant.*
> 
> I even would argue for keeping some mysteries unanswered. For example the inane reveal of what the smoke monster really was was far worse than never answering that specific detail. Leaving it as the "island's security system" was enough of an answer.


This, but we've been over it again so many times. My single biggest complaint is that they moved the goalposts to the exact opposite end of the field, making the rest pretty much irrelevant. I could have handled no answers to most of the mysteries, or even dumb answers, but I'll never forgive the writers for switching the story around so much that the last season felt like a completely different show.

Still, I enjoyed most of it. Like I said the journey was MUCH better than the destination.


----------



## philw1776

Well said Steveknj
Wonderful journey


----------



## waldingrl

Rewatching now with my son (now that he is old enough and wants to watch it). It's such a fun ride!


----------



## jkeegan

I was hoping this thread would live on for years so we could all fondly remember the show, not so that every 2-3 years when one of us (me this time) bumps the thread, people who grumbled about the ending would grumble about it again.. (especially if they get things wrong).

Jacob and his brother were not introduced at the end.. Jacob's name was shown in like season 2 - VERY early on (someone had his eyes pried open A-Clockwork-Orange-style and was being made to watch video that said Jacob loves you).

The focus of the show was about the people who came to the island. That's exactly what we watched. They didn't move any goal posts - you just misinterpreted what the goal posts were.

Part of the journey of watching people through the show was finding out about their pasts.. but another part was finding out where they were right now.

We find out that they were on an island whose past had future versions of them..

We find out that they were chosen to be on the island after all, and that it was for a reason (hinted at since the 3rd episode of the entire series).

We find out that one of the key points of history on this island (The Incident, which was named early in season two on the film reel) was actually caused by future versions of themselves.. We got to see that happen, knowing ahead of time that it couldn't do what they wanted it to ("change" something.. which we'd already had established was impossible - what happened, happened).

In the last season half of what we watched was the rest of what happened on that island. The other half was what happened to the people after that.

I'm sorry if people didn't like the time travel stuff, but it was awesome.

I'm sorry if people didn't like the Jacob vs his-brother stuff, but it was awesome.

I'm sorry if people didn't like what Jack and the rest had made for themselves after dying, or that they could do that, or that this universe had anything mystical in it. It turns out it did. The story was well told.

I'm sorry that anyone could have been satisfied by the idea that the floating smoke monster was simply a security mechanism for the island, and be willing to leave it at that. Seriously? No further explanation? Someone decided to make a nanotech swarm of black dust and have it go around protecting the island for some unspecified reason? Why?

Following the journey through time that the smoke monster went through just to kill Jacob was pure awesome. I'm sorry that some didn't have the patience to do it. That happened in the 6th season. I'm sorry if you DID have the patience to do it but just didn't like it. You're wrong if you think it wasn't awesome. It was.

Lost was incredible. I don't understand why anyone would want to let themselves dislike it for any reason.


----------



## jkeegan

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What a sad, provincial viewpoint you have. It must be bleak living in a world where yours is the only possible way of looking at things, and everybody else is "wrong."


Yeah it does suck watching others get things wrong.

Especially when it causes THEM less happiness.

But other than that sadness I feel for some of my fellow TiVo brothers and sisters not allowing themselves to enjoy a show as great as Lost, it's actually pretty happy. After all, I still get to fondly remember Lost!


----------



## DavidJL

Wow, Denial ain't just a river in the land of Taweret


----------



## stellie93

jkeegan said:


> After all, I still get to fondly remember Lost!


:up: :up: :up:


----------



## danterner

Regardless of whether the story held together or fell apart in the final analysis (for my money, it mostly held together and left me more satisfied than not), I'll always remember LOST fondly for many reasons:

1. The long discussions and theorizing it inspired here

2. The meta-aspects of the show, like the ABC.com Diary, and the Hanso Foundation fake commercials, and the ARG in between the first and second season, and the novel that was pretty sucky but which I devoured for clues nevertheless

3. The fan podcasts, like Jack and Jay, and that one with the couple from Hawaii where the guy sounded a bit like Dr. Bunsen Honeydew, and Jorge Garcia's own podcast, and Carlton and Damon's podcast

4. The Fuselage, which was the official show forum, in which the cast and writers often actively participated in the threads. It was cool theorizing along with Jorge, or asking a question of Javier Grillo-Marxuach and getting it answered, however obliquely.

No show since has come even close to sucking me in as deeply, even though there have been some which have been better television and which stuck the landing (like Breaking Bad).


----------



## jkeegan

I do miss the Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse (Darlton!) podcast.. listened to that every week...


----------



## betts4

jkeegan said:


> After all, I still get to fondly remember Lost!


 this.


----------



## betts4

danterner said:


> Regardless of whether the story held together or fell apart in the final analysis (for my money, it mostly held together and left me more satisfied than not), I'll always remember LOST fondly for many reasons:
> 
> 1. The long discussions and theorizing it inspired here
> 
> 2. The meta-aspects of the show, like the ABC.com Diary, and the Hanso Foundation fake commercials, and the ARG in between the first and second season, and the novel that was pretty sucky but which I devoured for clues nevertheless
> 
> 3. The fan podcasts, like Jack and Jay, and that one with the couple from Hawaii where the guy sounded a bit like Dr. Bunsen Honeydew, and Jorge Garcia's own podcast, and Carlton and Damon's podcast
> 
> 4. The Fuselage, which was the official show forum, in which the cast and writers often actively participated in the threads. It was cool theorizing along with Jorge, or asking a question of Javier Grillo-Marxuach and getting it answered, however obliquely.
> 
> No show since has come even close to sucking me in as deeply, even though there have been some which have been better television and which stuck the landing (like Breaking Bad).


:up:


----------



## Steveknj

jkeegan said:


> I was hoping this thread would live on for years so we could all fondly remember the show, not so that every 2-3 years when one of us (me this time) bumps the thread, people who grumbled about the ending would grumble about it again.. (especially if they get things wrong).
> 
> Jacob and his brother were not introduced at the end.. Jacob's name was shown in like season 2 - VERY early on (someone had his eyes pried open A-Clockwork-Orange-style and was being made to watch video that said Jacob loves you).
> 
> The focus of the show was about the people who came to the island. That's exactly what we watched. They didn't move any goal posts - you just misinterpreted what the goal posts were.
> 
> Part of the journey of watching people through the show was finding out about their pasts.. but another part was finding out where they were right now.
> 
> We find out that they were on an island whose past had future versions of them..
> 
> We find out that they were chosen to be on the island after all, and that it was for a reason (hinted at since the 3rd episode of the entire series).
> 
> We find out that one of the key points of history on this island (The Incident, which was named early in season two on the film reel) was actually caused by future versions of themselves.. We got to see that happen, knowing ahead of time that it couldn't do what they wanted it to ("change" something.. which we'd already had established was impossible - what happened, happened).
> 
> In the last season half of what we watched was the rest of what happened on that island. The other half was what happened to the people after that.
> 
> I'm sorry if people didn't like the time travel stuff, but it was awesome.
> 
> I'm sorry if people didn't like the Jacob vs his-brother stuff, but it was awesome.
> 
> I'm sorry if people didn't like what Jack and the rest had made for themselves after dying, or that they could do that, or that this universe had anything mystical in it. It turns out it did. The story was well told.
> 
> I'm sorry that anyone could have been satisfied by the idea that the floating smoke monster was simply a security mechanism for the island, and be willing to leave it at that. Seriously? No further explanation? Someone decided to make a nanotech swarm of black dust and have it go around protecting the island for some unspecified reason? Why?
> 
> Following the journey through time that the smoke monster went through just to kill Jacob was pure awesome. I'm sorry that some didn't have the patience to do it. That happened in the 6th season. I'm sorry if you DID have the patience to do it but just didn't like it. You're wrong if you think it wasn't awesome. It was.
> 
> Lost was incredible. I don't understand why anyone would want to let themselves dislike it for any reason.


No need to apologize. We all walked away from this show with a different impression of the ending. But, it's not about patience. Because I loved everything about the first 5 seasons. Loved it. I was definitely NOT one of those who got mad because they didn't show the answers to this or that question. I liked all the misdirection, when it involved our main characters that I had a vested interest for FIVE years. All of the events on the island, I figured at one time would tie into something, not sure what. But Jacob and his brother, while hinted at since early on, always felt to me like they were made up by Ben, and used by Ben like a diety to advance his power over those under his control. I still consider that what we watched for FIVE seasons really meant NOTHING in the eventual scheme of things, in that the whole thing was just a power struggle between Jacob and his bro.

*I get that what we saw was about the characters, but in the end, the characters were all pawns of a giant chess game between the brothers, and at least I took out of this that nothing they did was really in their control, as it turned out.

*I get the future vs. past version of the characters, and I'm fine with that, but in the end, things like The Incident, meant nothing to the struggle between Jacob and his bro.

If you think it was ALL awesome, and loved how it played out, that's fine. But no need to apologize to those of us who saw it differently. I still stand by my statement that the ride was much better than the destination.

I agree with everyone who mentioned how much fun the ride was and all the peripheral stuff that just added to it. I'll say that Lost was probably the first Internet enhanced show that I ever watched, and maybe the first of it's kind. Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad and even The Big Bang Theory have Lost to thank for a lot of the "buzz" on the internet it gets.


----------



## philw1776

Steveknj said:


> No need to apologize. We all walked away from this show with a different impression of the ending. But, it's not about patience. Because I loved everything about the first 5 seasons. Loved it. I was definitely NOT one of those who got mad because they didn't show the answers to this or that question. I liked all the misdirection, when it involved our main characters that I had a vested interest for FIVE years. All of the events on the island, I figured at one time would tie into something, not sure what. But Jacob and his brother, while hinted at since early on, always felt to me like they were made up by Ben, and used by Ben like a diety to advance his power over those under his control. I still consider that what we watched for FIVE seasons really meant NOTHING in the eventual scheme of things, in that the whole thing was just a power struggle between Jacob and his bro.
> 
> *I get that what we saw was about the characters, but in the end, the characters were all pawns of a giant chess game between the brothers, and at least I took out of this that nothing they did was really in their control, as it turned out.
> 
> *I get the future vs. past version of the characters, and I'm fine with that, but in the end, things like The Incident, meant nothing to the struggle between Jacob and his bro.
> 
> If you think it was ALL awesome, and loved how it played out, that's fine. But no need to apologize to those of us who saw it differently. I still stand by my statement that the ride was much better than the destination.
> 
> I agree with everyone who mentioned how much fun the ride was and all the peripheral stuff that just added to it. I'll say that Lost was probably the first Internet enhanced show that I ever watched, and maybe the first of it's kind. Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad and even The Big Bang Theory have Lost to thank for a lot of the "buzz" on the internet it gets.


Excellent riposte


----------



## jamesl

the show was always purgatory 
the writers always had purgatory in mind as their surprise ending and twist 
but people figured this out before the first season was over 

the writers didn't want to admit that their secret was out, so they lied and said "oh, no, we're not doing purgatory" 

so we ended up with a spaghetti mess of stories and plots that went all over the place as the writers spent the next 4 seasons doing rewrites trying to write purgatory without actually writing purgatory


----------



## DUDE_NJX

That's why the writers shouldn't get involved with the fans until the show is over.


----------



## DevdogAZ

jamesl said:


> the show was always purgatory
> the writers always had purgatory in mind as their surprise ending and twist
> but people figured this out before the first season was over
> 
> the writers didn't want to admit that their secret was out, so they lied and said "oh, no, we're not doing purgatory"
> 
> so we ended up with a spaghetti mess of stories and plots that went all over the place as the writers spent the next 4 seasons doing rewrites trying to write purgatory without actually writing purgatory


 What? Really? Did you actually watch the show? What happened on the Island was most definitely NOT Purgatory, since we saw flash forwards to most of their lives back on the mainland after leaving the Island.

The only part that could be considered Purgatory would be the flash sideways in S6, so I'm not sure how that means the writers spent four seasons doing rewrites. You are aware that TV shows are not written in advance, right? Nobody on the producing or writing staff had any idea what would happen in S2 when they wrote S1. And same with S3 when they wrote S2, etc. Sometimes, very rarely, a show will have the luxury of time and the writing staff can get the entire season written before the first episode begins to shoot. But that's incredibly rare. Usually, the writing staff is just a few episodes ahead of the production, and it's all being made up as they go.


----------



## gchance

jamesl said:


> the show was always purgatory
> the writers always had purgatory in mind as their surprise ending and twist
> but people figured this out before the first season was over
> 
> the writers didn't want to admit that their secret was out, so they lied and said "oh, no, we're not doing purgatory"
> 
> so we ended up with a spaghetti mess of stories and plots that went all over the place as the writers spent the next 4 seasons doing rewrites trying to write purgatory without actually writing purgatory


Taking anything the producers said out of the equation and letting the show do the talking, would it have made a difference to you?

If nobody had said, "This is not purgatory" when everyone was speculating that it was purgatory. If this is your one complaint, and now that nobody's telling you that it's not purgatory, doesn't it erase the problem you had with it, and doesn't it let you enjoy it more?

--

Isn't it about time for a collective rewatch?

Greg


----------



## DreadPirateRob

I will always have great memories of Lost. I can't wait until my son is a little older so I can rewatch it with him.


----------



## Steveknj

DevdogAZ said:


> What? Really? Did you actually watch the show? What happened on the Island was most definitely NOT Purgatory, since we saw flash forwards to most of their lives back on the mainland after leaving the Island.
> 
> The only part that could be considered Purgatory would be the flash sideways in S6, so I'm not sure how that means the writers spent four seasons doing rewrites. You are aware that TV shows are not written in advance, right? Nobody on the producing or writing staff had any idea what would happen in S2 when they wrote S1. And same with S3 when they wrote S2, etc. Sometimes, very rarely, a show will have the luxury of time and the writing staff can get the entire season written before the first episode begins to shoot. But that's incredibly rare. Usually, the writing staff is just a few episodes ahead of the production, and it's all being made up as they go.


I think part of the problem is that the writers came out and said they they knew how it would end on day 1. What they meant was that they planned for Jack (or whoever was their primary character, IRC they were originally going to kill Jack off during the pilot) would close his eyes during the last scene. We all took what they said as they had planned out the whole series and the finale from day 1. Which I don't think was true.


----------



## jamesl

DevdogAZ said:


> What happened on the Island was most definitely NOT Purgatory,


of course it wasn't
because they did the rewrites

they wanted it to be purgatory 
they had planned on it being purgatory 
but they had to change their stories

it was obvious by the 3rd season that they (the writers) were the one who were LOST 
they had no idea where to take the story and and how to get it back on track or come up with a satisfying solution now that purgatory was out of the equation

so they just threw everything at it to see what would stick: 
time travel, a mysterious fail safe button, Egyptian statues, a magic box

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Fail-safe 


> According to Charles Widmore, Desmond was a fail-safe himself, because of his unique resistance to electromagnetism. He was Jacob's last resort in case the Man in Black managed to kill all of the candidates -- one final way to make sure that his brother would never leave the Island.


"Desmond was a fail-safe himself" LOL

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_box


> Benjamin Linus: Let me put it so you'll understand. Picture a box. You know something about boxes, don't you John? What if I told you that, somewhere on this island, there is a very large box and whatever you imagined, whatever you wanted to be in it when you opened that box, there it would be? What would you say about that, John?





> In the May 23, 2007 special "Lost: The Answers," producers Cuse and Lindelof commented on the nature of the magic box metaphor, stating that "the entire island is a magic box."


LOL, the entire island is a magic box    :down:

so after trying various plots and twists and stories the writers finally said "screw it" and did purgatory anyway as a "flash sideways"


----------



## DevdogAZ

jamesl said:


> of course it wasn't because they did the rewrites they wanted it to be purgatory they had planned on it being purgatory but they had to change their stories it was obvious by the 3rd season that they (the writers) were the one who were LOST they had no idea where to take the story and and how to get it back on track or come up with a satisfying solution now that purgatory was out of the equation so they just threw everything at it to see what would stick: time travel, a mysterious fail safe button, Egyptian statues, a magic box http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Fail-safe "Desmond was a fail-safe himself" LOL http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_box LOL, the entire island is a magic box    :down: so after trying various plots and twists and stories the writers finally said "screw it" and did purgatory anyway as a "flash sideways"


As I said, you have no understanding of how TV shows are written. They didn't even know where S1 was going after the pilot, let alone having multiple years and the ending planned out. There was a great article I read a few years ago, probably from a link in this thread, that talked about how Lindelof was in a panic after the pilot was picked up, because he had no idea what direction to take the show. That's when he reached out to Cuse for help. It made things clear that the writing on this show was just like it is on every other show - made up a few weeks before the episodes are shot, and there was very little planned out beforehand. So to think that not only did they have a plan, but already had scripts written which would necessitate rewrites is simply illogical.


----------



## Donbadabon

For me it all came down to the claims that they knew what they were doing - but in reality they were lying to everyone around them.

As proven by their own writers guide:

Each episode will be self-contained. No knowledge of previous episodes will be needed. Viewers can just drop in and out whenever they please and not be lost.

The mythology will be easy to follow.

There will be no 'ultimate mystery' to solve.

etc.

Of course it is easy to understand that they bit off more than they could chew, and had to make changes. But to go on record saying the things they said, while doing the exact opposite, naturally leaves people unhappy with them.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8WGamNXh2iwOWx0UDNRQkl5VTA/edit


----------



## Test

jamesl said:


> the show was always purgatory
> the writers always had purgatory in mind as their surprise ending and twist
> but people figured this out before the first season was over
> 
> the writers didn't want to admit that their secret was out, so they lied and said "oh, no, we're not doing purgatory"
> 
> so we ended up with a spaghetti mess of stories and plots that went all over the place as the writers spent the next 4 seasons doing rewrites trying to write purgatory without actually writing purgatory


I agree, I think they planned on it being purgatory all along and had to change it up. Still loved the show, like others have said I was more invested in this show than any other ever. The fact that we are all still talking about it TODAY says a lot. BUT I think this is how they pitched the show and it was going to be their big "twist" when the series finally ended. A plane crashes, everyone is actually dead but they think they are alive and crazy things happen on the island and there is a monster that will devour them when they are finally ready to move on...only because they are in....wait for it....PURGATORY!



DevdogAZ said:


> What? Really? Did you actually watch the show? What happened on the Island was most definitely NOT Purgatory, since we saw flash forwards to most of their lives back on the mainland after leaving the Island.
> 
> The only part that could be considered Purgatory would be the flash sideways in S6, so I'm not sure how that means the writers spent four seasons doing rewrites. You are aware that TV shows are not written in advance, right? Nobody on the producing or writing staff had any idea what would happen in S2 when they wrote S1. And same with S3 when they wrote S2, etc. Sometimes, very rarely, a show will have the luxury of time and the writing staff can get the entire season written before the first episode begins to shoot. But that's incredibly rare. Usually, the writing staff is just a few episodes ahead of the production, and it's all being made up as they go.


I don't think jamesl is claiming that the entire show WAS purgatory, he is saying (maybe?) it was SUPPOSED to be purgatory, but when the fans guessed it before the season ended they changed it. If they confirmed it was purgatory they would have lost a lot of viewers that were in it for the mystery.



Donbadabon said:


> For me it all came down to the claims that they knew what they were doing - but in reality they were lying to everyone around them.
> 
> As proven by their own writers guide:
> 
> Each episode will be self-contained. No knowledge of previous episodes will be needed. Viewers can just drop in and out whenever they please and not be lost.
> 
> The mythology will be easy to follow.
> 
> There will be no 'ultimate mystery' to solve.
> 
> etc.
> 
> Of course it is easy to understand that they bit off more than they could chew, and had to make changes. But to go on record saying the things they said, while doing the exact opposite, naturally leaves people unhappy with them.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8WGamNXh2iwOWx0UDNRQkl5VTA/edit


I believe they said this writers guide was a fraud and was only put together because the studio heads wanted a serialized drama that anyone could jump into at anytime like the very popular CSI/Law & Orders.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Test said:


> I believe they said this writers guide was a fraud and was only put together because the studio heads wanted a serialized drama that anyone could jump into at anytime like the very popular CSI/Law & Orders.


True.

On the other hand, anybody who thinks they had a master plan from the beginning that went beyond "Jack closes his eyes in the final shot" is, I think, delusional. I doubt they had any serious end-game in mind until after the final renewal, when they knew how many seasons they had left.

They just made us believe they did.


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> True.
> 
> On the other hand, anybody who thinks they had a master plan from the beginning that went beyond "Jack closes his eyes in the final shot" is, I think, delusional. I doubt they had any serious end-game in mind until after the final renewal, when they knew how many seasons they had left.
> 
> They just made us believe they did.


This. The "red herring" so to speak was the writers claiming they knew how it would end all along. By that they meant, the final scene of Jack closing his eyes. But we took it to mean, they had this mapped out and knew exactly what they planned for the story. They just went with it, never denying that they only knew the last scene. And you know what? That all would have been fine if they hadn't screwed up the last season so badly and made 5 years of twists and turns pretty much mean zilch. The last season was so different in tone that it just felt like a different series. And really if you take the last season as a different series with our characters, it really wasn't bad in a self contained kind of way.

Anyway, we've been over this many times since the finale. One day I'll actually follow through on a rewatch (I've gotten through about 5-6 episodes of S1 and ran out of time), and see if there's some real clues that actually lead toward what we saw in S6. More than just a few mentions of Jacob by Ben.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Steveknj said:


> More than just a few mentions of Jacob by Ben.


Mentions which place him in a completely different context than what he ended up being. There's no way they knew who "Jacob" was when they mentioned him, or even when they introduced him. Much less that he was the key to the entire story.


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Mentions which place him in a completely different context than what he ended up being. There's no way they knew who "Jacob" was when they mentioned him, or even when they introduced him. Much less that he was the key to the entire story.


Or that he really existed. As I said, up until that last scene of S5 where we see Jacob and Smokie discussing the goings on, I always just assumed that Jacob was just made up by Ben (or was a legend exploited by Ben) to consolidate power (some could argue that it's similar to how the Catholic Church got so much power in the Middle Ages). I saw no real proof of his existence other than that cabin, which could have been anything. Everything else going on could be explained by some other non-Jacob reason. Do we even know if Ben knew for sure that Jacob really existed?

So I'd like to do a rewatch and see if I see Jacob in a different context and see if there are lots of clues that we all missed as to what Jacob's role was.


----------



## javabird

danterner said:


> Regardless of whether the story held together or fell apart in the final analysis (for my money, it mostly held together and left me more satisfied than not), I'll always remember LOST fondly for many reasons:
> 
> 1. The long discussions and theorizing it inspired here
> 
> 2. The meta-aspects of the show, like the ABC.com Diary, and the Hanso Foundation fake commercials, and the ARG in between the first and second season, and the novel that was pretty sucky but which I devoured for clues nevertheless
> 
> 3. The fan podcasts, like Jack and Jay, and that one with the couple from Hawaii where the guy sounded a bit like Dr. Bunsen Honeydew, and Jorge Garcia's own podcast, and Carlton and Damon's podcast
> 
> 4. The Fuselage, which was the official show forum, in which the cast and writers often actively participated in the threads. It was cool theorizing along with Jorge, or asking a question of Javier Grillo-Marxuach and getting it answered, however obliquely.
> 
> No show since has come even close to sucking me in as deeply, even though there have been some which have been better television and which stuck the landing (like Breaking Bad).


Yes, I loved the podcasts and fan sites too (that couple from Hawaii was Ryan and Jen, BTW). We got to know Jay & Jack through their podcasts, and Jorge Garcia, and others, and we followed the mysteries and clues all over the web. It was a great time, and nothing has quite been like it since.

I think I'm ready for a re-watch now.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Donbadabon said:


> For me it all came down to the claims that they knew what they were doing - but in reality they were lying to everyone around them.
> 
> As proven by their own writers guide:
> 
> Each episode will be self-contained. No knowledge of previous episodes will be needed. Viewers can just drop in and out whenever they please and not be lost.
> 
> The mythology will be easy to follow.
> 
> There will be no 'ultimate mystery' to solve.
> 
> etc.
> 
> Of course it is easy to understand that they bit off more than they could chew, and had to make changes. But to go on record saying the things they said, while doing the exact opposite, naturally leaves people unhappy with them.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8WGamNXh2iwOWx0UDNRQkl5VTA/edit


That document was never intended as a "series guide" or "writer's bible." It was created merely as a way to sell ABC on ordering the pilot to series. While the pilot was being produced, Lindelof and JJ Abrams hired 4 writers to put together this document, and the sole purpose of this was to present something ot the network that would encourage the network to order the series. Lindelof and Abrams did not want any of that stuff, but they knew they had to tell ABC what they wanted to hear in order to get the show purchased. They figured once they got the series order and started making the show they wanted to make, either it would succeed and ABC wouldn't care, or it would crash and burn and be just one of many shows that tanks each year.

Read this story for more info: http://www.slashfilm.com/leaked-los...ent-vision-of-the-show-for-a-devious-purpose/


----------



## betts4

I loved LOST.

All of it. And as a love, there were parts that made go  and some that made me go  and some that had me  and  and thinking  and a bit of .

It was :up:


----------



## Anubys

I wish I had watched LOST from the beginning. But I did enjoy catching up with the series and having many friends here at TCF watch along with me as I caught up. Catching up with LOST with TCF along for the ride is just another example of why this is a special place.

This concludes my sappy quota for 2014


----------



## philw1776

I thought your LOST recaps were hilarious


----------



## Donbadabon

> The producers once again rejected some viewers' conclusion that the characters were actually dead during the whole run of the show, with Cuse explaining that a closing finale scene of the plane wreckage without any people around it "exacerbated" the problem. They said they aimed for "a spiritual ending" because the show was about people lost in their own lives and seeking redemption.


Ok, now I am confused all over again. I thought they were dead the whole time. If they weren't, at what point did they die??

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2014/03/17/fans-enjoy-island-memories-at-lost-tribute/6513771/


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

They died (most of them) at various points after they got off the island. Whenever they died, they all ended up in the "LA Purgatory" of the final season, which was a timeless place (or a place outside of time).


----------



## jkeegan

It just now occurred to me that what with JJ Abrahm's speech about the "magic box" (if you don't know the reference, he did a TED talk you can watch), I wouldn't be surprised if in that first sir down meeting they realized that one of the characters would have to be tied to the secrets of the show, and I can picture JJ referring to him as a "box factory". I'll bet it was an inside joke when they revealed (in Walkabout, episode 3?) his job, that he worked at a box factory.


----------



## jkeegan

From listening to the podcasts, Damon and Carlton seemed pretty genuinely adamant that what they were showing was NOT purgatory, it was REAL, so much so that I don't think that initially they DID want it to be literally purgatory. So I disagree with the idea that that's what they wanted and then had to pivot when the audience figured it out, if only from so many times where we heard their comments about it during podcasts every week.

Purgatory didn't even seem like a satisfying end-game. I took it more like they'd built this amazing web of events (through time, which wasn't "thrown on", we saw seeds of that right at the beginning of season 2), including repeated statements that what happened happened, and now wanted to test the "faith" of the viewers of the show (and that premise of immutability) by showing us the people trying to change things with a bomb, and seeing who would wonder what had happened.

Those of us who bought into (and appreciated the tougher writing challenges of) "what happened happened" were immediately amazed and simultaneously skeptical that we then saw Jack in a plane that didn't crash (which we later learned was their reunion/final-goodbye lobby before walking into heaven together, which they could make because Hurley could do anything now). It was a very satisfying resolution for many of us that we then saw that this last season, which some were calling "cheating" at the time and bad writing because stuff had changed, actually had NOT been a rule change - what happened did in fact happen - and on top of that we get the type of let's get the friends together reunion that we ALL pine for and that someone like Hurley would absolutely create if given the power.

Even when it aired there was a huge chasm between what many of us got and what many others missed when watching the show (I think we here at TC covered most of the good stuff). It suppose that over time, as everyone's memories fade, it would only stand to reason that that divide wouldn't change. Those who loved it will remember the awesome parts, those who didn't will either not remember much or will remember particular things they were looking for resolutions on that they weren't satisfied with.

I have come to the sad conclusion that it's be really difficult to do a rewatch with my kids. There were so many episodes! And there are so many other shows out there that we haven't seen. I don't know if I can rewatch the entire series. Key moments sure, but unless it was a week long marathon or something, it might not happen.


----------



## astrohip

Donbadabon said:


> Ok, now I am confused all over again. I thought they were dead the whole time. If they weren't, at what point did they die??


Dead the whole time? Seriously? Whether one liked the ending or not, I thought everyone knew they weren't dead until what Rob said above.

Funny timing, this strip ran this weekend...


----------



## BeanMeScot

The last season of the show they were dead. They weren't dead before that.


----------



## jkeegan

BeanMeScot said:


> The last season of the show they were dead. They weren't dead before that.


The last season of the show the flash sideways scenes were where they were dead. Everything that happened on the island actually happened, and they were alive for that.


----------



## mrdazzo7

I'll admit that I was annoyed by the "sideways" story of season six. I understood it, and in hindsight I can appreciate the concept of everyone going into limbo until they ALL died so they could move on together, etc, but for me, it was the fact that they spent *half* of *every* episode on that concept... at the end of the day, 90% of stuff that happened in the sideways verse was inconsequential to the end result. It showed the characters living their lives as if 815 never happened, but all we really saw was how many ways the writers could come up with to have them intersect all the time. so what...

I felt, and still feel, that they should have ditched the flash-everydirection's for the last season and just told straight "present day" story, and then used the "limbo" device in the finale. I realize it's just TOO much to fit into the finale but as a story-telling device, I just think it was a waste to spend as much time on it as they did. And the answer as to why has always been obvious to me, and that is because they flat-out couldn't fill 15 episodes with pure island story at that point, and spending 20 minutes of airtime on a made up storyline that only impacted the story at the last minute gave them an out, and to me made the whole final season, which should have ruled, drag and feel unnecessary. Again, that's except for the last few minutes where the truth about that world was revealed...I thought that was cool.

The other part that ruined the last season for me - and this is where people seem to be the most divided - is that it proved that the guys involved truly did not have answers for the stuff they spent five years setting up. Listen, I get that it's a TV show but that's kind of my point - it's a story. A story has set-up's and payoffs, it's a fact of the medium. Anyone can sit down and write a great first half of a movie that blows people's minds but if you don't actually have payoffs for the stuff you set up, what's the point.



> Obviously, there are all these mysteries, and in the final episode of Lost, we could answer a question that wasnt asked, Lindelof added. That question: What is the meaning life? And what happens when you die?


The company line that I've seen in interviews in the years since is that "this isn't a show about mysteries, it's a show about characters" is to me the biggest cop out of all time. Of course it's about characters, every show is. And they created some great ones... but I personally don't see how that absolves you from actually having to craft a complete story in the sense that if you set up mysteries, you have to pay them off. The quote above from the panel is glaringly obvious... "going into our series finale, we knew we had all these mysteries that we set up but then decided it would be cooler to just ignore them and answer a totally irrelevant question that had nothing to do with the six-year run of our show..."... lol, WHAT?

Another interesting tidbit:


> Lindelof admitted that when they cast the show, there was no script. Kim read for the part of Kate. "There was no Sun in the 'Lost' script  because there was no 'Lost' script," he said. "Jorge read for Sawyer, because Hurley didn't exist." And how did they decide Locke had been in a wheelchair? Lindelof revealed that while shooting the pilot, Terry O'Quinn would go down the beach and listen to his iPod during breaks. Co-creator J.J. Abrams pointed at O'Quinn and told Lindelof, "That guy's got a secret." What secret? "You figure it out."


Which just proves they were making stuff up as they went without any kind of plan. I'm not really saying I BLAME them, I just find it annoying that they don't seem to acknowledge that the anger a lot of fans have is justified. It's not just whining because you didn't like the direction they went in, it's deeper than that because the show was just SO. DAMN. GOOD. and part of that awesomeness was that you *knew* the guys behind it were gonna blow your mind with all this stuff, and instead they chose to ignore half of it. Even stuff they tried to answer was just like "huh?". It's really cool to have a loud, destructive smoke monster terrorizing an island full of plane crash survivors, but you have to legitimately explain what that is at some point. They just thought it looked cool and let's figure it out later. meh.

I'm always torn when I think about the show, especially when asked for a recommendation by someone who hasn't seen it. It's so f***ing good early on, and actually through most of the run, but the last season playing out the way it did (with the exception of most of the finale itself) just left a bitter taste in my mouth. It sucks because I think about every season before that all I want to do is watch it again. But knowing that so much stuff is set up then left out (because it's only about the characters I guess), and how much time is wasted in the sideways world (again, cool concept, cool endgame, absolutely unnecessary amount of air time), it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's like reading a phenomenal book then hating the last chapter. Very mixed feelings.

Well that's enough three-year built up Lost angst for now...


----------



## DreadPirateRob

mrdazzo7 said:


> Another interesting tidbit:
> 
> Which just proves they were making stuff up as they went without any kind of plan. I'm not really saying I BLAME them, I just find it annoying that they don't seem to acknowledge that the anger a lot of fans have is justified. It's not just whining because you didn't like the direction they went in, it's deeper than that because the show was just SO. DAMN. GOOD. and part of that awesomeness was that you *knew* the guys behind it were gonna blow your mind with all this stuff, and instead they chose to ignore half of it. Even stuff they tried to answer was just like "huh?". It's really cool to have a loud, destructive smoke monster terrorizing an island full of plane crash survivors, but you have to legitimately explain what that is at some point. They just thought it looked cool and let's figure it out later. meh.
> 
> I'm always torn when I think about the show, especially when asked for a recommendation by someone who hasn't seen it. It's so f***ing good early on, and actually through most of the run, but the last season playing out the way it did (with the exception of most of the finale itself) just left a bitter taste in my mouth. It sucks because I think about every season before that all I want to do is watch it again. But knowing that so much stuff is set up then left out (because it's only about the characters I guess), and how much time is wasted in the sideways world (again, cool concept, cool endgame, absolutely unnecessary amount of air time), it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's like reading a phenomenal book then hating the last chapter. Very mixed feelings.
> 
> Well that's enough three-year built up Lost angst for now...


That wasn't Lindelof's fault though. If you read Sepinwall's excellent book, the chapter about Lost details all the craziness that went into the show being created. It was basically a nugget of an idea that JJ Abrams and the head of ABC spitballed, and then Lindelof had, like, a weekend to come up with a pilot script (I may not be remembering it all correctly, but that was the gist).


----------



## mrdazzo7

DreadPirateRob said:


> That wasn't Lindelof's fault though. If you read Sepinwall's excellent book, the chapter about Lost details all the craziness that went into the show being created. It was basically a nugget of an idea that JJ Abrams and the head of ABC spitballed, and then Lindelof had, like, a weekend to come up with a pilot script (I may not be remembering it all correctly, but that was the gist).


Oh, I don't think Lindelof is responsible for everything I didn't like about the show... it's all a collaborative effort... I'm sure they were in a tough spot and if anything the first season kind of proves that they are awesome at coming up with some killer stuff under immense pressure. It's more the blantant lies he and Cuse told over the course of the show that they knew where every seed was going, etc, and the fact that years later when it's obvious that wasn't true, there's still a level of "arrogant defiance" for lack of a better term from them... Like it's so obvious that they had no plan for 75% of the stuff they opened up yet they still act like they did and it's not a big deal because it's a show about people, lol.

I'll alwasy give them props for season 4... kind of random but I just remember the season getting cut short because of the writer's strike and them having to crank out the back half of the season in record time and the result was awesome - very tightly plotted, almost no excess, etc. They pulled it together with unreal constraints, so I know the creative team behind the sho was good, but just a little admission on the story front would be appreciated


----------



## astrohip

And it was four years ago tonight...


----------



## Silverman

The writers sure did such a terrible job I was shocked when Once Upon A Time in Wonderland actually used as a promo "from the writers of Lost" and it meant for me the show would have stupid plots and no resolution so not much need to watch. I was proven right when it was cancelled in first year while the similar other show continues.

Yes, its been 4 years and most viewers are still mad. A proper ending could have led to a movie later where someone else goes explore the island again too. Maybe even a series of movies (like Jurassic Park did). The solution would have been for them to hire real sci-fi writers when they were not smart enough to resolve things, they were rolling in money and could sure afford it so they could do movies later, very lost opportunity.


----------



## philw1776

Anytime I see the LOST writers cited, I avoid watching thanks to season six's tale of the moron brothers.


----------



## Turtleboy

Silverman said:


> The writers sure did such a terrible job I was shocked when Once Upon A Time in Wonderland actually used as a promo "from the writers of Lost" and it meant for me the show would have stupid plots and no resolution so not much need to watch. I was proven right when it was cancelled in first year while the similar other show continues.
> 
> Yes, its been 4 years and most viewers are still mad. A proper ending could have led to a movie later where someone else goes explore the island again too. Maybe even a series of movies (like Jurassic Park did). The solution would have been for them to hire real sci-fi writers when they were not smart enough to resolve things, they were rolling in money and could sure afford it so they could do movies later, very lost opportunity.


I'm not mad.


----------



## DUDE_NJX

Well, they did manage to fool a LOT of people for a number of years by making them think the writers were smarter than they really are. There's some talent in that.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

DUDE_NJX said:


> Well, they did manage to fool a LOT of people for a number of years by making them think the writers were smarter than they really are. There's some talent in that.


And I think the writers are actually pretty good at what they do.

Unfortunately, what Lost was (as opposed to what they seemed to think it was) wasn't what they do.


----------



## Howie

It entertained me for years before it petered out. I can't complain much.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Howie said:


> It entertained me for years before it petered out. I can't complain much.


Yeah, that's my basic take. It was a huge disappointment towards the end, but the beginning and middle were fantastic.


----------



## Anubys

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, that's my basic take. It was a huge disappointment towards the end, but the beginning and middle were fantastic.


That's what she said...


----------



## DUDE_NJX

But then you learned she was dead the whole time... Win!


----------



## javabird

astrohip said:


> And it was four years ago tonight...


Wow, it's hard to believe it's been 4 years.


----------



## javabird

Silverman said:


> The writers sure did such a terrible job I was shocked when Once Upon A Time in Wonderland actually used as a promo "from the writers of Lost" and it meant for me the show would have stupid plots and no resolution so not much need to watch. I was proven right when it was cancelled in first year while the similar other show continues.
> 
> Yes, its been 4 years and most viewers are still mad. A proper ending could have led to a movie later where someone else goes explore the island again too. Maybe even a series of movies (like Jurassic Park did). The solution would have been for them to hire real sci-fi writers when they were not smart enough to resolve things, they were rolling in money and could sure afford it so they could do movies later, very lost opportunity.


Maybe Jurassic Park isn't the best example, since the sequels weren't very good. But I take your point.


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, that's my basic take. It was a huge disappointment towards the end, but the beginning and middle were fantastic.


This (I bet I've said it a dozen times in this very thread, each time it's revived)

I'm surprised it's not on in syndication on some network.


----------



## Fool Me Twice

I can't imagine it working in syndication. I remember one podcast where the head writers were laughing at the network falling for the initial pitch that promised that each episode would be self-contained.


----------



## danterner

I've been rewatching, as my daughter watches for the first time. We're now about halfway through season three. She's loving it, and I'm enjoying the rewatch. For what it's worth, I didn't feel let-down by the final season or the finale - I enjoyed it all the way through. I acknowledge that some questions were left unanswered and that the final season was a bit of a detour - I was and am okay with how it all resolved.


----------



## JMikeD

danterner said:


> I I was and am okay with how it all resolved.


So am I. It was a fun ride.


----------



## gweempose

danterner said:


> I've been rewatching, as my daughter watches for the first time. We're now about halfway through season three. She's loving it, and I'm enjoying the rewatch. For what it's worth, I didn't feel let-down by the final season or the finale - I enjoyed it all the way through. I acknowledge that some questions were left unanswered and that the final season was a bit of a detour - I was and am okay with how it all resolved.


This echoes my sentiments exactly. Was the show perfect? No, but it was a really fun ride overall. Out of curiosity, how old is your daughter?


----------



## smbaker

Same here. The ending was fine. Not awesome. Not great. Just fine.

I felt at the time that people has unreasonable expectations. It was clear to me by then that they weren't going to explain all of the Island's mysteries, nor necessarily should they. There was no single big reveal that would satisfy a majority of fans.

The story would have been fine without most of the last season though. In previous seasons they did flashbacks, flashforwards, etc. I think they just ran out of more ways to divert from the core plot so they went with flash-purgatories for the season, exposing a reality that really didn't matter to the core plot. Thus the final season felt like a waste of time. 

What surprised me is the number of people who grossly misinterpreted. You'll still hear people claiming that the Losties died during the initial plane crash and the entire series was set in a purgatory universe.


----------



## Silverman

Well SM, I pretty well feel that way. Why? Because only if the first seasons were dreams and not really happening would there be a valid reason for no cause or explanation of what all they came across. I mean we all have had silly dreams, so saying it was all in that universe and they were dead actually would fit a bunch better with the ending not then having to explain the reasons for Dharma, the bomb and all that.. But as usual the writers were not bright enough to even try that explanation. I think it also would not be liked, but not hated as much as what they did.


----------



## danterner

gweempose said:


> This echoes my sentiments exactly. Was the show perfect? No, but it was a really fun ride overall. Out of curiosity, how old is your daughter?


Fourteen. She's discovered that a bunch of her classmates have been watching, as well. They all started watching independently, without knowing that the others were doing the same. They're all at different points, and they're all trying hard not to spoil each other but they all really want to be able to talk with each other about the show.


----------



## smbaker

Silverman said:


> But as usual the writers were not bright enough to even try that explanation. I think it also would not be liked, but not hated as much as what they did.


I would have been pretty unhappy with a 'they're dead the whole time' or a 'it was all a dream' explanation.

What I took away from the show:

1) Mysterious things happen on the Island that science is unable to explain.

2) This has been happening for a very long time (even pre-Jacob)

3) Numerous persons and groups (incl Dharma) have tried to find an explanation, but failed.

4) The mysterious things have some supernatural/spiritual connection (a given, since the final season had flashes to life-after-death)

I'm really alright with that level of explanation. It was a show about people coping with phenomenon they don't understand. There's no need to explain the nature of the phenomenon itself. If the characters don't find out, then we don't find out.


----------



## wprager

There wasn't a show like it before, and there hasn't been one like it since. Loved every minute of the ride even if I loved some minutes more than others. Feel sorry for those of you who feel cheated by the ending. You hate it so much go and create something better rather than continuing your whining.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Silverman said:


> Well SM, I pretty well feel that way. Why? Because only if the first seasons were dreams and not really happening would there be a valid reason for no cause or explanation of what all they came across. I mean we all have had silly dreams, so saying it was all in that universe and they were dead actually would fit a bunch better with the ending not then having to explain the reasons for Dharma, the bomb and all that.. But as usual the writers were not bright enough to even try that explanation. I think it also would not be liked, but not hated as much as what they did.


I think it's very possible that was actually the writers' original plan. But after just the first few episodes, fans started speculating that was going to be the "answer" to the overarching mystery, and that kind of backed the writers into a corner. Either they had to admit this was the answer, and that would have killed all interest in the show, or they had to say this wasn't the answer, and thus maintain interest in the show. So it was a no-brainer to tell the public that the Losties were not dead and not in purgatory. The only problem is, this also required the writers to come up with an alternate explanation for everything, and ultimately, they weren't able to do it satisfactorily.

Having said that, I enjoyed every moment of watching the show, and although the final season was a little more disjointed than the previous seasons, and although the ultimate resolution wasn't as satisfactory as I had hoped, it was still very entertaining from start to finish and I'm very glad I watched and especially glad I participated in the threads here on TCF.


----------



## Peter000

danterner said:


> For what it's worth, I didn't feel let-down by the final season or the finale - I enjoyed it all the way through. I acknowledge that some questions were left unanswered and that the final season was a bit of a detour - I was and am okay with how it all resolved.


This. I haven't gotten as excited by a show since Lost started airing. I don't know if I ever will.

I guess Breaking Bad came close.


----------



## madscientist

_Lost_ was great fun (I watched it with my kids, too, a few years ago). I didn't mind the ending we got.

I would have *hated* it if it turned out they all died in the crash. That would have been the worst possible resolution and a complete cop-out.


----------



## realityboy

I wasn't disappointed by the last season at all. After the end of season 1 & start of season 2, I stopped believing that things were planned out. I was a bit disillusioned and really came close to dropping my season pass at that time but kept watching out of habit. It was no longer appointment viewing. I gradually became more fond of it as the seasons went on. By the end, it was a favorite. I think I might've been letdown if I still believed that everything was planned out, but I had long since moved on from that notion.


----------



## philw1776

I actually enjoyed half of the last season, the post-life joyful and poignant re-unions in faux LA. What bothered me about LOST was the illusion fostered by the writers that they had a plan for the island and knew how that story would end. They wrote a wonderful soap opera tinged with mystery, making it palatable for non soap viewers. Well cast well acted and well written. I didn't need some detailed explanation for everything, in fact knowing the explanation for the smoke monster ruined it by its very silliness, but the last months back story on the history of the island felt like some utter fantasy BS Ronald Moore (BSG) would pull out of his ass after a drinking bout to leap out of the corner he'd painted himself into. I'd expected better. A vast disappointment.


----------



## smbaker

philw1776 said:


> , in fact knowing the explanation for the smoke monster ruined it by its very silliness,


It's been a while so I don't remember that clearly, but wasn't he simply a man (Jacob's brother) who Jacob pushed into the cave that they were told not to go into?

I didn't find it silly, but rather a typical LOST non-explanation.

The problem the producers got into is they tried to play both sides throughout the series, science and supernatural. Characters referred to the smoke monster as the Island's "security system" many times, convincing people like myself that it probably had a technological explanation rather than a supernatural one. When they finally reveal that it was just some dude, who got pushed into a cave, then it was a letdown to many.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Lost was great when it started and continued to keep the audience mesmerized for about the first four seasons, which was no small feat by any stretch of the imagination. Towards the end, I think the writers painted themselves into a corner and couldn't come up with a brilliant way to end the show. The whole sideways story just took it off the rails to the point where it never got back on track. It just made the series even more confusing to watch.

I'm not sure there was any way to end the series that didn't disappoint part of the audience as I'm sure a lot of us had different interpretations of what was going on with different expectations of how the story would reach a logical conclusion. I thought the ending they used was cheap, disappointing, and a total cop out. Then again, I don't know what they could have done to make it any better. I think they built the show up to be larger than life and there was no resolution that could really satisfy anyone.

Personally, once Lost ended, I moved on and tried to forget about it. My interest in the show had waned considerably during the final season, but I still stuck with it just to see how it would end. I watched the series finale feeling totally unfulfilled.

I can't say that I'm surprised to hear that the same writers had something to do with Once Upon a Time in Wonderland because that show totally sucked. To be fair, it wasn't so much the writing but the way below average production values. I thought it should have been canceled after the first episode.


----------



## latrobe7

I enjoyed LOST very much and was satisfied with the ending. I will concede that those that disliked it seem more passionate about their opinion than those that liked it, for whatever that's worth.

BTW, Once Upon a Time in Wonderland was a spin-off of Once Upon a Time, which was created by the same writers from LOST and is still going strong using the same tropes and often the same actors from LOST.


----------



## mr.unnatural

latrobe7 said:


> I enjoyed LOST very much and was satisfied with the ending. I will concede that those that disliked it seem more passionate about their opinion than those that liked it, for whatever that's worth.
> 
> BTW, Once Upon a Time in Wonderland was a spin-off of Once Upon a Time, which was created by the same writers from LOST and is still going strong using the same tropes and often the same actors from LOST.


FYI - Once Upon a Time in Wonderland has been canceled.


----------



## latrobe7

Right, that's why I said "was". The show it was spun-off from is still on, going into it's 4th season.


----------



## Crow159

Were people really thinking that Once Upon a Time in Wonderland was going to get renewed? I remember reading before it even started airing that it was only going to be one season and that was it.


----------



## Steveknj

Do people actually go back and read this thread? Everytime it's revived we have the same exact discussion  Some people liked the ending, some people didn't and so forth.

As I've said, probably 6 times or so in this thread. LOVED, LOVED, LOVED all of the seasons until the last. And if the last season was some self contained story outside of the Losties, I'd have liked it too. It just didn't fit in with the other seasons of Lost and it ended up discounting everything we've seen from S1 on. 

You know, it's possible to love a series, and just hate certain seasons or the ending or whatever. How many people loved the Sopranos but hated the ending? It doesn't make it a bad series or want me to throw away ALL the enjoyment I had along the way. I always say, Lost is like a summer long cross country trip, where you see all kinds of amazing stuff, that just blows your mind, but by the time you get to the coast and look out at the ocean, it's just so meh compared to all the cool stuff you saw and did along the way. For some though the ocean is what they were seeking though and the other stuff just doesn't matter.


----------



## Silverman

Yeah, I think they do. For such a high budget, long running, high ratings series with writers who kept saying it was all going to make sense, there is still severe anger over no answers. Even some of the comments above were not explanations, the smoke monster was not explained at all, we just were shown the beginning one, not why or how. That's like asking how the atomic bomb works and being shown just a movie of the first drop. There was a bomb in this show and it even went off but made no sense at all as did a million other things, folks are still mad over spending so much time trying to figure out a mystery. Suppose you spent a year reading a big mystery murder book and at the end instead of a resolution they just told you it was just a dream and no crime even occurred, forget all the characters you followed and the plot, I bet you'd be mad.


----------



## philw1776

I was fine with ambiguity and some mystery and could deal with non-explanations like the smoke monster was the island's defense system and just leave it at that. But the last season's "explanation" that it was this ancient retarded brother's manifestation after being tossed into the light cave was stupid at best. Last season on island sucked, while the LA post-life segment was a nice recap and reunion that did nothing to piss all over the previous seasons.


----------



## Silverman

Another angering thing is that the writers did not like that people early on guessed purgatory--ok, well then why use that? They had an Egyptian statue and people on island thousands of years back, but the dumb writers could not envision one of those sun-god things as the cause of the magic stuff, with him really being some alien? I mean that could have explained both the fantasy and high tech stuff, the governments interest, even why they might plant a bomb in case they can't reason with the creature. See how much better writer I am in a couple of minutes than the whole staff of fools they had? That's an ending that would have worked and there are plenty more.


----------



## philw1776

I think they were infused with hubris and they'd lost interest, moving on to their next gig.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

philw1776 said:


> I think they were infused with hubris and they'd lost interest, moving on to their next gig.


I don't think so. Much as I don't like what they ended up doing, I believe it's what they intended to do all along...and the (better, more interesting) stuff in the middle was just filler to therm.


----------



## Steveknj

Silverman said:


> Yeah, I think they do. For such a high budget, long running, high ratings series with writers who kept saying it was all going to make sense, there is still severe anger over no answers. Even some of the comments above were not explanations, the smoke monster was not explained at all, we just were shown the beginning one, not why or how. That's like asking how the atomic bomb works and being shown just a movie of the first drop. There was a bomb in this show and it even went off but made no sense at all as did a million other things, folks are still mad over spending so much time trying to figure out a mystery. *Suppose you spent a year reading a big mystery murder book and at the end instead of a resolution they just told you it was just a dream and no crime even occurred, forget all the characters you followed and the plot, I bet you'd be mad.*


And then two years later you sit back and realize, you know, I really enjoyed most of the book. The characters were interesting and there's that multiple murder during the wedding scene that the author killed off a few of the characters we liked. That really was awesome. Yeah the ending sucked, but I enjoyed most of what I read. You're still going to remember the book, and you might be pissed at the ending, but I doubt you'd regret reading it.


----------



## Steveknj

Silverman said:


> Another angering thing is that the writers did not like that people early on guessed purgatory--ok, well then why use that? They had an Egyptian statue and people on island thousands of years back, but the dumb writers could not envision one of those sun-god things as the cause of the magic stuff, with him really being some alien? I mean that could have explained both the fantasy and high tech stuff, the governments interest, even why they might plant a bomb in case they can't reason with the creature. See how much better writer I am in a couple of minutes than the whole staff of fools they had? That's an ending that would have worked and there are plenty more.


What if when everyone guessed it was purgatory early on, the writers admitted it. How many people would have stopped watching? Lots. They HAD to deny it. Could they have been more coy about it? Sure. And they should have been. Part of the problem, I think, is that they should have been told, after season 1, not season 3 (if I have my timelines correct) that this series was going x amount of years, and they need to plan the story out accordingly. There's no reason, once they resolved the story in x amount of time, they couldn't have done another story with the same characters post what happened in the finale if they wanted to extend the series past that. You still had Hugo and Ben on the island after and there could have been more stories to tell.


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think so. Much as I don't like what they ended up doing, I believe it's what they intended to do all along...and the (better, more interesting) stuff in the middle was just filler to therm.


I agree with this. The problem is that what they wrote in the middle was much better than the last season, and the story got WAY too involved in the other parts of the plot to where the last season made little sense because they went so far away from that plot line. I always felt, that if they introduced Jacob earlier in the series as something real, and not the perception that he just might have been made up by Ben and then additionally by Locke, then the last season might have made much more sense.


----------



## danterner

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think so. Much as I don't like what they ended up doing, I believe it's what they intended to do all along...and the (better, more interesting) stuff in the middle was just filler to therm.


Please ignore - looks like Forum Runner is going haywire on me.


----------



## KDeFlane

When people talk about "the writers of LOST" they often neglect the fact that there were MANY different writers, and the staff rotated in and out over its many seasons. They usually mean to indict the showrunners and/or producers, and specifically the ones with the most visibility in its later years.

If you enjoy hearing about how the show was originally envisioned and how it evolved (and how it could have failed), here is a recent article written by one of the writers who was there during its earliest days (but left after the third season): 
"Finding the Next LOST" 
http://www.apex-magazine.com/findin...an-operational-theme-and-why-dont-i-have-one/


----------



## dianebrat

Silverman said:


> Another angering thing is that the writers did not like that people early on guessed purgatory--ok, well then why use that?





Steveknj said:


> What if when everyone guessed it was purgatory early on, the writers admitted it. How many people would have stopped watching? Lots. They HAD to deny it. Could they have been more coy about it? Sure. And they should have been.


ARGH!

When they denied purgatory they were denying that the ISLAND was purgatory, and they were right, the island never was purgatory.
The only time the "is it or isn't it purgatory" comes into play was the "sideways" flashes of post-island life on the last season, that one they really can't explain away, it was very purgatory-esque.


----------



## philw1776

I have no regrets for the enjoyable time I spent watching the terrific journey LOST. However, the imbecilic way it ended makes it very, very difficult to re-watch the series as I had once looked forward to savoring. No more.


----------



## Silverman

Dahhh... of course the writers would not admit it was going to be purgatory after it was guessed, that is my point---they should WRITE something else, they are writers, they are not bound just because in the start they were going to do that, they are supposed to have an imagination, see? By ending up using purgatory they looked even dumber as well as lying. That's why many are still mad.


----------



## getreal

KDeFlane said:


> ... If you enjoy hearing about how the show was originally envisioned and how it evolved (and how it could have failed), here is a recent article written by one of the writers who was there during its earliest days (but left after the third season):
> "Finding the Next LOST"
> http://www.apex-magazine.com/findin...an-operational-theme-and-why-dont-i-have-one/


Thanks for that link! :up:


----------



## Steveknj

Silverman said:


> Dahhh... of course the writers would not admit it was going to be purgatory after it was guessed, that is my point---they should WRITE something else, they are writers, they are not bound just because in the start they were going to do that, they are supposed to have an imagination, see? By ending up using purgatory they looked even dumber as well as lying. That's why many are still mad.


I'd say many are mad because they didn't get the ending they wanted. I was mad (and have since gotten over it), because I thought that the last season marginalized what we had seen the previous seasons. And as I said, taken separately from the rest of the story, I thought the last season told a pretty decent story, it just had little to do with everything else we have been seeing and it was just all about some dumb argument between two brothers. The Purgatory stuff could have actually worked without that in my opinion. But again, I'm not mad enough that I'd never watch again, or that I didn't enjoy the seasons before the last one. I actually kind of enjoyed the last one too, just didn't really like the direction they took.


----------



## javabird

I'm kind of confused why people keep referring to some of the same theories, even after they've been debunked. It wasn't purgatory, and it wasn't all a dream. "What happened, happened."

As to the number of seasons, Cuse & Lindelof maintained almost from the beginning that the plan was for only 6 seasons. (They had a running joke about the "zombie season" when people asked if there would be more.)


----------



## Steveknj

javabird said:


> I'm kind of confused why people keep referring to some of the same theories, even after they've been debunked. It wasn't purgatory, and it wasn't all a dream. "What happened, happened."
> 
> As to the number of seasons, Cuse & Lindelof maintained almost from the beginning that the plan was for only 6 seasons. (They had a running joke about the "zombie season" when people asked if there would be more.)


I thought it was after the third season they were told how many seasons they would have left.

The Island was "what happened happened" the LA stuff at the end of the series was Purgatory, from what I understand.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

danterner said:


> I was and am okay with how it all resolved.


This. The emotional resonance of the finale far outweighed any bother I felt about unanswered questions or curious pacing choices for the final season.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Silverman said:


> Yeah, I think they do. For such a high budget, long running, high ratings series with writers who kept saying it was all going to make sense, there is still severe anger over no answers. Even some of the comments above were not explanations, the smoke monster was not explained at all, we just were shown the beginning one, not why or how. That's like asking how the atomic bomb works and being shown just a movie of the first drop. There was a bomb in this show and it even went off but made no sense at all as did a million other things, folks are still mad over spending so much time trying to figure out a mystery. Suppose you spent a year reading a big mystery murder book and at the end instead of a resolution they just told you it was just a dream and no crime even occurred, forget all the characters you followed and the plot, I bet you'd be mad.


What possible explanation can you come up with for the Smoke Monster that would be satisfying? It was always going to be something supernatural and unexplainable.



Steveknj said:


> What if when everyone guessed it was purgatory early on, the writers admitted it. How many people would have stopped watching? Lots. They HAD to deny it. Could they have been more coy about it? Sure. And they should have been. Part of the problem, I think, is that they should have been told, after season 1, not season 3 (if I have my timelines correct) that this series was going x amount of years, and they need to plan the story out accordingly. There's no reason, once they resolved the story in x amount of time, they couldn't have done another story with the same characters post what happened in the finale if they wanted to extend the series past that. You still had Hugo and Ben on the island after and there could have been more stories to tell.


That's not how TV shows are written or how the TV business works. After S1, the network isn't going to guarantee the show another five seasons. The network makes its decision after each season whether it's going to renew each show. In very rare instances, it will renew a show for more than one year. But even this year, when CBS renewed the highest-rated show on TV, The Big Bang Theory, for another three seasons, the industry was very surprised at such a lengthy renewal, because it's so out of the ordinary.



Silverman said:


> Dahhh... of course the writers would not admit it was going to be purgatory after it was guessed, that is my point---they should WRITE something else, they are writers, they are not bound just because in the start they were going to do that, they are supposed to have an imagination, see? By ending up using purgatory they looked even dumber as well as lying. That's why many are still mad.


I'm curious what part of the final season you are having a problem with. Because for me, the flash-sideways plots to all the characters interacting in LA were actually enjoyable and I really liked the final ending of them meeting up in the church and moving on together. What I didn't like about the final season was the disjointed story of what happened on the Island. The Temple, the brothers, the Black Rock, the foot statue, etc. All of that was a complete mess and shows that the writers had no idea how they were going to resolve the story.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

DevdogAZ said:


> What possible explanation can you come up with for the Smoke Monster that would be satisfying? It was always going to be something supernatural and unexplainable.


That's not what they said. They promised everything would have a logical explanation.

What bothered me was that they both explicitly (through what they said) and implicitly (through the way they built their show over time) promised a different kind of show than what they delivered.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's not what they said. They promised everything would have a logical explanation.
> 
> What bothered me was that they both explicitly (through what they said) and implicitly (through the way they built their show over time) promised a different kind of show than what they delivered.


I never put any faith into their claims that everything would be logically explained, because it wasn't possible. There was just way too much unexplainable stuff on that Island that it would have been impossible for them to write an ending that was satisfactory to anyone who was expecting logical explanations. Thus, I was never expecting a logical explanation.


----------



## getreal

Am I the only one here who posted in this resurrected thread and suddenly was getting unsolicited emails from an old Lost fan using an old forum email list to spam us with requests for money for his kickstarter film project? A bunch of us have been trying to get off of that list, but he has no formal "unsubscribe" option.  It just seemed to be pretty coincidental that this old thread and the sudden spam occurred one after the other. :down:


----------



## Steveknj

Nice article about Damon Lindelof and it speaks about some of the thought process behind Lost. I think, from what I gather, that he and Cuse were so surprised that this show was such a hit and they'd have to come up with SEASON'S worth of material that perhaps this lead to much of the disjointed stuff they came up with.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/01/magazine/damon-lindelof-leftovers-lost.html?_r=0


----------



## DreadPirateRob

I think I've discussed this somewhere before - perhaps even upthread - but Lost was the brainchild of the then-ABC president, who had the thumbnail sketch of an idea for a show, and brainstormed it with JJ Abrams, and then had JJ do a pilot in a remarkably short amount of time. Abrams brought on Lindelof to help write it, and then after the pilot was shot and the show picked up, he got the Mission Impossible directing gig, and he left Lindelof to run it. 

So yeah, he kind of got stuck holding the bag, so to speak, and had to create a show out of all the crazy ideas they threw into the pilot.


----------



## aindik

The ABC President was Lloyd Braun, and his is the voice you hear say "Previously on LOST."

Don't remember where I read that.


----------



## DevdogAZ

DreadPirateRob said:


> I think I've discussed this somewhere before - perhaps even upthread - but Lost was the brainchild of the then-ABC president, who had the thumbnail sketch of an idea for a show, and brainstormed it with JJ Abrams, and then had JJ do a pilot in a remarkably short amount of time. Abrams brought on Lindelof to help write it, and then after the pilot was shot and the show picked up, he got the Mission Impossible directing gig, and he left Lindelof to run it.
> 
> So yeah, he kind of got stuck holding the bag, so to speak, and had to create a show out of all the crazy ideas they threw into the pilot.


And then after the pilot was made and they had already begun writing and producing S1, Lindeloff (or the network suits) realized he wouldn't be able to run this show on his own, so they brought in Cuse to help make the trains run on time.


----------



## danterner

aindik said:


> The ABC President was Lloyd Braun, and his is the voice you hear say "Previously on LOST." Don't remember where I read that.


I'm pretty sure that voice is Carlton Cuse's. Very distinctive, and identical to "Previously, on Bates Motel" (his current project).


----------



## DreadPirateRob

aindik said:


> The ABC President was Lloyd Braun, and his is the voice you hear say "Previously on LOST."
> 
> Don't remember where I read that.





danterner said:


> I'm pretty sure that voice is Carlton Cuse's. Very distinctive, and identical to "Previously, on Bates Motel" (his current project).


Nope. Aindik was right.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Previously_on_Lost


----------



## smbaker

... and yet many people will remember him only as the guy on Seinfeld who didn't sell computers.


----------



## danterner

DreadPirateRob said:


> Nope. Aindik was right. http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Previously_on_Lost


 Wow, I've been marathoning a rewatch with my daughter and we're almost done with season 3, so I've been hearing it several times a day for the last few months. I would have bet money it was him. All I can say is this: [media]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GcatQSyRK6c[/media]


----------



## Turtleboy

smbaker said:


> ... and yet many people will remember him only as the guy on Seinfeld who didn't sell computers.


The guy on Seinfeld was named after the network exec.


----------



## smbaker

Turtleboy said:


> The guy on Seinfeld was named after the network exec.


I know.  He and Larry David had a business relationship. I'm just saying I bet more people will associate that name with the Seinfeld character than for any real-life accomplishments of the actual person who owned that name.

It's sort of the opposite of what they did with Steinbrenner, who they made into a larger-than-life parody of himself.


----------



## jkeegan

jkeegan said:


> I have come to the sad conclusion that it's be really difficult to do a rewatch with my kids. There were so many episodes! And there are so many other shows out there that we haven't seen. I don't know if I can rewatch the entire series. Key moments sure, but unless it was a week long marathon or something, it might not happen.


Ha! Good news - that was crazy talk.. I've got my three daughters hooked - we're into season 2, and the hatch surprise was maintained (S2E1 generated exactly the "OHH!!!!!" moments I hoped for, and that we all experienced).


----------



## DUDE_NJX

I try to not set up my kids for a major disappointment


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel

DUDE_NJX said:


> I try to not set up my kids for a major disappointment


Yeah. As I watched Lost, I was actively excited about a rewatch so that I could re-experience it with fresh insights ("oh, that's why that horse appeared!"). When I got to the end and learned that 90% was left unexplained (even the freaking numbers) Lost became dead to me. Dead to me forwards, backwards, sideways and on into not-purgatory-but-really-purgatory.


----------



## jkeegan

Blah blah blah I didn't like it blah blah blah.


----------



## ct1

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> 90% was left unexplained (even the freaking numbers)


They're just the core numerical values of the Valenzetti Equation. Alvar Hanso talked about them on one of the videos (in the Lost Experience).


----------



## MikeekiM

I watched with my son a couple of years ago...

At the time, my son was on a race to get to the end...

I told him that somethings are more about the journey than about the destination... And Lost was definitely more about enjoying the journey...


----------



## mrizzo80

This date/time is coming up. 

4/8/15 16:23:42

I'll rip a partial quote from a recent reddit.com/r/lost/ thread (that I won't link to due to language): "The sky will light up, then we're all back in the 70's."


----------



## jlb

mrizzo80 said:


> This date/time is coming up.
> 
> 4/8/15 16:23:42
> 
> I'll rip a partial quote from a recent reddit.com/r/lost/ thread (that I won't link to due to language): "The sky will light up, then we're all back in the 70's."


Oh I am sooo going to borrow that for my facebook timeline


----------



## Steveknj

MikeekiM said:


> I watched with my son a couple of years ago...
> 
> At the time, my son was on a race to get to the end...
> 
> I told him that somethings are more about the journey than about the destination... And Lost was definitely more about enjoying the journey...


I've said this many times. It's like taking a cross country trip to California, getting to the Pacific Ocean, and looking at it for a couple of minutes, going meh and heading back east. But all those stops along the way were what made the trip. And when I look back on Lost, that's how I feel. Yeah, the last season sucked, but I can still recall it being one of the only shows I made sure to watch that night and looking forward to it all week. For all the hours of enjoyment I had leading up to the meh ending, it was worth it.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Steveknj said:


> I've said this many times. It's like taking a cross country trip to California, getting to the Pacific Ocean, and looking at it for a couple of minutes, going meh and heading back east. But all those stops along the way were what made the trip. And when I look back on Lost, that's how I feel. Yeah, the last season sucked, but I can still recall it being one of the only shows I made sure to watch that night and looking forward to it all week. For all the hours of enjoyment I had leading up to the meh ending, it was worth it.


That's pretty much my take on it. The anger and sense of betrayal I felt at the ending (in that they seemed to deliberately promise something they did not deliver) faded a lot faster than the enjoyment from the previous seasons.


----------



## hairyblue

I've just started re-watching too. I'm half-way through the first season. I know how it all ends but I'm still really enjoying "the ride" again. 

This show is very heavy on interesting characters, mysterious island with secrets, and enemies that turned out to be very complex. Throw in some Sci-fi and I love it. And the actors are very good in this show. 

I didn't have HD for about half the seasons, so it was fun to watch in HD.


----------



## jr461

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Yeah. As I watched Lost, I was actively excited about a rewatch so that I could re-experience it with fresh insights ("oh, that's why that horse appeared!"). When I got to the end and learned that 90% was left unexplained (even the freaking numbers) Lost became dead to me. Dead to me forwards, backwards, sideways and on into not-purgatory-but-really-purgatory.


This pretty much exactly. While I appreciate that the journey is much of the fun, it is only so DURING the journey as the ending is still unknown but highly anticipated particularly in a show like this which raises so many questions.

After investing years I expected some kind of payoff in the end to at least come close to the level of pent up anticipation and not the nebulous blather we ended up with.

Similarly, I won't see a movie if I know the ending is vague, up to the viewer to interpret what happens. No, that's what writers are for - tell a story, lead me along the path, address the riddles and questions and tell me how it ends.


----------



## DavidJL

I wonder if its possible for enough people to organize on a website and rewrite Lost. Maybe on a site like this, although greater numbers would really help with the imagination needed to come up with an ending that would answer the questions from the early episodes. Perhaps a thread to present ideas for each alternate episode and then add a poll a month later to vote for the best idea. But the question is how far back to go, where did Lost start to go bad. The last season sure, but some plot lines conceived in earlier seasons were painted into corners. I guess a starting point could be voted on as well.


----------



## Steveknj

DavidJL said:


> I wonder if its possible for enough people to organize on a website and rewrite Lost. Maybe on a site like this, although greater numbers would really help with the imagination needed to come up with an ending that would answer the questions from the early episodes. Perhaps a thread to present ideas for each alternate episode and then add a poll a month later to vote for the best idea. But the question is how far back to go, where did Lost start to go bad. The last season sure, but some plot lines conceived in earlier seasons were painted into corners. I guess a starting point could be voted on as well.


At this point, I don't really care anymore.


----------



## JYoung

DavidJL said:


> I wonder if its possible for enough people to organize on a website and rewrite Lost. Maybe on a site like this, although greater numbers would really help with the imagination needed to come up with an ending that would answer the questions from the early episodes. Perhaps a thread to present ideas for each alternate episode and then add a poll a month later to vote for the best idea. But the question is how far back to go, where did Lost start to go bad. The last season sure, but some plot lines conceived in earlier seasons were painted into corners. I guess a starting point could be voted on as well.


I saw this happen before with Buffy Season 7.
A group of people got together to write their own version of Season 7 (while the show was still in production) and would post it on a website.

I lasted about four "episodes" before I couldn't take it anymore.
Because it was _awful_.
Wretchedly bad.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

It's a lot easier to criticize writing than it is to do it.

I'll never forget my first year of grad school. Before I graded papers, I always assumed my high college GPA was the result of me being spectacular. Turns out it was just that I didn't suck very much.


----------



## squigy0

My wife and I have started the full series re-watch. We're looking for foreshadowing, motivations for the characters' actions now knowing more about all of their stories, re-evaluating the answers to questions everyones' sure never actually got answered, and of course continuity mistakes. 

Wish us luck!


----------



## aaronwt

WoW!! Has it really been almost five years since LOST went off the air?


----------



## JYoung

squigy0 said:


> My wife and I have started the full series re-watch. We're looking for foreshadowing, motivations for the characters' actions now knowing more about all of their stories, re-evaluating the answers to questions everyones' sure never actually got answered, and of course continuity mistakes.
> 
> Wish us luck!


So, you're not going to Guam?


----------



## jkeegan

HA!!!!!!

Season 2, Episode 13.. Jack brings the case of guns to the hatch. Locke and him lock them up. Jack says "John.... The combination?".

Locke pauses, smiles kind of, and says "I'm gonna go ahead and assume that you're asking me because you're worried that I might fall off a cliff or something".


----------



## philw1776

Depressing if they'd already thought of that stupid finale back then and with years to re-consider and come to their senses instead they stuck with it.


----------



## DUDE_NJX

Yeah, after the finale it's hard not to see the show as the producers' ego circle jerk.


----------



## hairyblue

I really enjoying re-watching it. It is very well made. It's suspenseful and they know how to leave a cliff hanger ending on each episode. 

I am into season 3 and getting the back stories of the Others. Everyone on the show is so lost in their own way.


----------



## DUDE_NJX

hairyblue said:


> Everyone on the show is so lost in their own way.


Starting with the writers


----------



## jlb

It's still to each his or her own......

Heck, look at it this way, we are still talking about it years after it went off the air. In that sense, the writers succeeded greatly. 

Personally, I liked the finale.

I'm about 1/3 of the way into my Season 6 rewatch. So many little things make me smile.....


----------



## DreadPirateRob

This is a rather long and overly wordy read, but it's also a very interesting one if you want even more inside info from the 1st season writer's room as to how the sausage was made. Pretty definitively answers the debate as to whether they had a plan from the beginning or whether they were just making it up as they went along. The answer? Yes.


----------



## danterner

DreadPirateRob said:


> This is a rather long and overly wordy read, but it's also a very interesting one if you want even more inside info from the 1st season writer's room as to how the sausage was made. Pretty definitively answers the debate as to whether they had a plan from the beginning or whether they were just making it up as they went along. The answer? Yes.


Javi was an especially-active participant on The Fuselage, the official LOST forum, back during season 1. I remember him as being very forthcoming in his posts and replies concerning the writing process.


----------



## jkeegan

DreadPirateRob said:


> This is a rather long and overly wordy read, but it's also a very interesting one if you want even more inside info from the 1st season writer's room as to how the sausage was made. Pretty definitively answers the debate as to whether they had a plan from the beginning or whether they were just making it up as they went along. The answer? Yes.


I'm only 1/4 of the way through this (note to self: stopped at paragraph starting with "This is also a long way of saying" for now), but I love it. Very long read but I recommend it to everyone from what I've seen so far - very entertaining.


----------



## bareyb

jkeegan said:


> I'm only 1/4 of the way through this (note to self: stopped at paragraph starting with "This is also a long way of saying" for now), but I love it. Very long read but I recommend it to everyone from what I've seen so far - very entertaining.


As long as they don't take the juice for free.  Good to see you jkeegan!


----------



## aindik

How do you write a show for 2 seasons, love it, and then not even watch the rest of it?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

aindik said:


> How do you write a show for 2 seasons, love it, and then not even watch the rest of it?


Sounds like he wasn't very happy about being basically forced out, nor about the direction the show was taking at the end of his tenure...

And I think right after that was when he started working on Middleman, which probably took up somewhere around 100% of his waking moments.


----------



## Fahtrim

since this thread is back at the top again.......does this thread win this forum for most often dug up and rebumped?

wow......


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

It keeps bouncing around in time.

Flashing back, flashing forward, flashing sideways...


----------



## Fahtrim

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It keeps bouncing around in time.
> 
> Flashing back, flashing forward, flashing sideways...


I see what you did there............


----------



## DevdogAZ

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sounds like he wasn't very happy about being basically forced out, nor about the direction the show was taking at the end of his tenure...


I listen to a podcast Javi does and he's never once mentioned that his departure from LOST was anything other than his own decision and that he was very happy with his time there but that it was simply time for him to move one.

Given that background, I was very surprised when reading this essay that he never watched future episodes until the finale, and not only did he not watch, he didn't even know that Michael Emerson had stayed on the show and become very prominent, he'd never heard of Jacob or the Man in Black, etc. Seems like he was actively avoiding exposure to LOST, since those things were pretty universal in the pop-culture zeitgeist at the time.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

DevdogAZ said:


> I listen to a podcast Javi does and he's never once mentioned that his departure from LOST was anything other than his own decision and that he was very happy with his time there but that it was simply time for him to move one.


I'm just going by this essay...in which he seems to have been unhappy at the end of his time on Lost.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm just going by this essay...in which he seems to have been unhappy at the end of his time on Lost.


I'm only about 3/4 of the way through the essay, so if he mentions that toward the end, I haven't read it yet.


----------



## astrohip

Just read all 16,000 words. Worth the time. It's fun & interesting to hear some actual insight from the writer's room, from S1 and S2.

Did they have a plan, or make it all up?

Absolutely yes.


----------



## teknikel

Great article. 

I still can't figure out why whether or not they had a plan determines how good a show is. It was a good show overall. It was a great show for 3 or 4 years. And the original investment in it was worth it.


----------



## pjenkins

astrohip said:


> Just read all 16,000 words. Worth the time. It's fun & interesting to hear some actual insight from the writer's room, from S1 and S2.
> 
> Did they have a plan, or make it all up?
> 
> Absolutely yes.


Which is how most shows do it, really. One of my favorite shows is Justified, and when you listen to Yost (the show runner), they have the basic outline and associated characters, but continue to make things up, refine, and even change characters completely based on the actor and associated things they bring to the table (Choo Choo in Justified, for example).


----------



## jkeegan

During the rewatch with my kids, I gotta say, the episode Dave is pretty convincing...


----------



## philw1776

pjenkins said:


> Which is how most shows do it, really. One of my favorite shows is Justified, and when you listen to Yost (the show runner), they have the basic outline and associated characters, but continue to make things up, refine, and even change characters completely based on the actor and associated things they bring to the table (Choo Choo in Justified, for example).


Agreed. But that is the characters' details & dialog and episode details in a law & order vs crime genre.

A show like LOST is fundamentally different in that it has a rich underlying mythology. When you have no real clue whatsoever as to the plot elements and complex background you introduced for the viewers' entertainment, it's very different.


----------



## DreadPirateRob

Lost was always about the characters. The mythology was just window-dressing.


----------



## wombat94

DreadPirateRob said:


> Lost was always about the characters. The mythology was just window-dressing.


So totally agree with this statement.

And I think this attitude probably closely aligns with those who are/were satisfied with the finale and those who weren't.

I never REALLY cared too much about the mythology/mysteries of the island. I was more interested in how each of these characters reacted to the situations that they were placed in and what that said about them.


----------



## jkeegan

wombat94 said:


> So totally agree with this statement.
> 
> And I think this attitude probably closely aligns with those who are/were satisfied with the finale and those who weren't.
> 
> I never REALLY cared too much about the mythology/mysteries of the island. I was more interested in how each of these characters reacted to the situations that they were placed in and what that said about them.


Well I for one am someone who loved the characters, and also loved the mythology they created on the island. The characters drove the show, but it was a damned interesting environment they placed them all in.


----------



## jkeegan

(and I loved the ending)


----------



## Steveknj

DreadPirateRob said:


> Lost was always about the characters. The mythology was just window-dressing.





wombat94 said:


> So totally agree with this statement.
> 
> And I think this attitude probably closely aligns with those who are/were satisfied with the finale and those who weren't.
> 
> I never REALLY cared too much about the mythology/mysteries of the island. I was more interested in how each of these characters reacted to the situations that they were placed in and what that said about them.


The problem with that statement (and I mostly agree with it), is they spent all but the last season making the mythology important and stringing us along with it and then, the last season, we get, the mythology is not important, it's about the characters. There are lots of shows that are about character development and less about plot (Mad Men for example), but this one, at least until the last season was about both.

And I STILL consider Lost one of my all time favorite shows.


----------



## teknikel

Steveknj said:


> The problem with that statement (and I mostly agree with it), is they spent all but the last season making the mythology important and stringing us along with it and then, the last season, we get, the mythology is not important, it's about the characters.
> And I STILL consider Lost one of my all time favorite shows.


I think the level of importance is inferred. All they did is put it out there.

It's like when you buy a car and all of a sudden there are so many of that type of car on the road that you didn't notice pre-purchase. Whatever your mind is primed for, it looks for more of it.


----------



## danterner

teknikel said:


> I think the level of importance is inferred. All they did is put it out there.
> 
> It's like when you buy a car and all of a sudden there are so many of that type of car on the road that you didn't notice pre-purchase. Whatever your mind is primed for, it looks for more of it.


That's the second reference to the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon I've come across today!


----------



## DUDE_NJX

Because you were subconsciously looking for it


----------



## Alfer

Happy LOST Day...



> 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42.
> 
> Like so many parts of Lost, those numbers haunted fans during, and probably after, the show. What do they mean? Well technically they correspond to candidates to replace Jakob as protector of the Island (or something), but to us they will always represent our own minds being driven mad by trying to figure out what everything on Lost meant, and how it fit together and what the answers to the mysteries were. And what better way to celebrate the insanity of that show than by recognizing how important today is in Lost mythology. It's April 8, 2015. 4-8-15. Get it? So today at 16:23 and 42 seconds, push a button somewhere, just for the heck of it.
> 
> So happy Lost Day, guys


----------



## jlb

I just posted the same thing on FB. I'm sure I'll get some eyerolls.....


----------



## tivoboyjr

Happy Lost Day! I'll be in my hatch if anybody needs me.


----------



## thenightfly42

I'll be eating imaginary peanut butter out of an empty jar with my fingers.


----------



## hairyblue

I just finished it again. I enjoyed it...but I was let down again by the ending. lol

I did see Rob McElhenney, the guy from It's alway Sunny in Philadelphia. He played an Other. He was still funny.


----------



## astrohip

And it was five years ago tonight...

Happy Anniversary Lost!


----------



## danterner

We have to go back!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

danterner said:


> We have to go back!


Or forward.

Or sideways...


----------



## Kamakzie

I feel old! The other day was also the 35th anniversary of the release of Empire Strikes Back.


----------



## betts4

astrohip said:


> And it was five years ago tonight...
> 
> Happy Anniversary Lost!


Going out to play the lottery.


----------



## Howie

What numbers are you going to play?


----------



## wprager

Howie said:


> What numbers are you going to play?


You don't have to ask.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Howie said:


> What numbers are you going to play?


Not THOSE numbers. Because then I'd have to share the jackpot with hundreds if not thousands of other people...


----------



## smak

"Lost numbers all chosen in $180 million Powerball jackpot drawing"

'12 million people to collect $15 each" Can choose $15 up front, or 1 big gulp a year for 15 years"

-smak-


----------



## ACoolDude

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not THOSE numbers. Because then I'd have to share the jackpot with hundreds if not thousands of other people...


Here in PA, in 2010 - 1,2,3,4,5,6 hit on one of the state lotteries (Treasure Hunt.), 49 players matched 5, each receiving $1,266


----------



## BeanMeScot

There was a case where a bunch of people won the Lottery. The commission investigated and they had all gotten the numbers from a Fortune Cookie. So they were all legit and had to divide the winnings.


----------



## ACoolDude

BeanMeScot said:


> There was a case where a bunch of people won the Lottery. The commission investigated and they had all gotten the numbers from a Fortune Cookie. So they were all legit and had to divide the winnings.


You mean those numbers in my cookie weren't exclusively for me??


----------



## jkeegan

November 3rd, 2015.. Tonight I'm showing the finale to my three daughters - we've been watching all six seasons. So they're a part of the thread, hi Emily Keegan, Alicia Keegan, and Cara Keegan!

Sad that it's over again. I wonder if Emily's old enough for Breaking Bad...


----------



## mrizzo80

jkeegan said:


> *November 3rd, 2015..* Tonight I'm showing the finale to my three daughters - we've been watching all six seasons. So they're a part of the thread, hi Emily Keegan, Alicia Keegan, and Cara Keegan!
> 
> Sad that it's over again. I wonder if Emily's old enough for Breaking Bad...


Whoa. Use the wheel to try to get back to present time.


----------



## bareyb

As long as they aren't Taking the Juice for Free! Where you been Jeff?


----------



## jkeegan

Wow, done. Lost it again. So damned good.

Sad it's over for the second (and likely last) time.


----------



## DUDE_NJX

So what did the kids think?


----------



## jkeegan

Loved it. Sad that it's over.


----------



## MikeekiM

You'll watch it again... There's a third viewing in there somewhere... Just need a little time to pass before starting another pass... 

I've seen it twice all the way through, and I could easily do a third pass sometime in the future...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Grandkids.


----------



## gweempose

My wife and I are binge watching the series with our 12-year-old son. It's our second viewing, his first. We are about halfway through Season 2, and we're loving it just as much the second time around! There will never be another show like this. It's an absolute masterpiece as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## jkeegan

MikeekiM said:


> You'll watch it again... There's a third viewing in there somewhere... Just need a little time to pass before starting another pass...
> 
> I've seen it twice all the way through, and I could easily do a third pass sometime in the future...


:up:


----------



## jkeegan

gweempose said:


> My wife and I are binge watching the series with our 12-year-old son. It's our second viewing, his first. We are about halfway through Season 2, and we're loving it just as much the second time around! There will never be another show like this. It's an absolute masterpiece as far as I'm concerned.


:up:


----------



## ct1

gweempose said:


> ...We are about halfway through Season 2...an absolute masterpiece...


Yes. halfway through Season 2...


----------



## wprager

gweempose said:


> My wife and I are binge watching the series with our 12-year-old son. It's our second viewing, his first. We are about halfway through Season 2, and we're loving it just as much the second time around! There will never be another show like this. It's an absolute masterpiece as far as I'm concerned.


Watched it twice ourselves, then with our oldest, then a couple years later when his brother was up for it, and now that the girls were about to turn 13 started one more time.

Each successive re-watch we probably get less glued to the screen, but every once in a while one of those must-watch episodes come on.

Still very watchable, even after all these years and re-watches.

And I feel sorry for those who were "burned" by the last season.


----------



## DUDE_NJX

ct1 said:


> Yes. halfway through Season 2...


LOL. so true


----------



## Steveknj

I keep saying I'm going to rewatch, but who has the time? These days there's SO much on TV that I barely make it through what I watch now every week. Then lulls like now happen, and I have a few Netflix or Amazon series I want to watch or a bunch of movies I've saved up on my DVR I want to watch as well. By the time I get through all of that, the new season is starting. Plus, I'm a sports fan, so during the summer there's baseball, which is on every day, and this time of year, football and hockey. I've started a couple of times doing a rewatch and got through half the first season and just couldn't find the time. And Lost is one of my all time favorite series. One of the few in the DVR era that I wanted to watch the day of.


----------



## astrohip

Steveknj said:


> I keep saying I'm going to rewatch, but who has the time? These days there's SO much on TV that I barely make it through what I watch now every week. Then lulls like now happen, and I have a few Netflix or Amazon series I want to watch or a bunch of movies I've saved up on my DVR I want to watch as well. By the time I get through all of that, the new season is starting. Plus, I'm a sports fan, so during the summer there's baseball, which is on every day, and this time of year, football and hockey. I've started a couple of times doing a rewatch and got through half the first season and just couldn't find the time. And Lost is one of my all time favorite series. One of the few in the DVR era that I wanted to watch the day of.


This. I would love to rewatch LOST, it was a show that changed the way I watched TV (because of the Internet/social media). Same with Breaking Bad. They are two of a very small group of shows I would like to see again, knowing how the story progressed.

But I always feel guilty watching any rerun, when there is so much new stuff to get to...


----------



## Steveknj

astrohip said:


> This. I would love to rewatch LOST, it was a show that changed the way I watched TV (because of the Internet/social media). Same with Breaking Bad. They are two of a very small group of shows I would like to see again, knowing how the story progressed.
> 
> But I always feel guilty watching any rerun, when there is so much new stuff to get to...


Maybe I still have an "old school" way of thinking, but if some channel decided to rerun these, and I was flipping through, I'd probably watch. I know enough about the series that I could tune to any odd episode and know what's going on. Even with so much on the DVR, I STILL channel surf quite a bit. Especially when watching a game and they go to commercials.


----------



## stellie93

I'm sitting here watching the Brown's game--now that's just craziness. I should dig out my Lost DVD's. 

(but I do have fantasy players to keep track of...)


----------



## astrohip

Six years ago today...


our beloved LOST walked off into the sunset.


----------



## rondotcom

astrohip said:


> Six years ago today...
> 
> our beloved LOST walked off into the sunset.


I know I am in the minority here, but I saw the finale, understood what was happening, and loved every second of it.


----------



## wprager

Not necessarily the minority. It's just that a few on the other side a re very vocal about it.


----------



## Steveknj

rondotcom said:


> I know I am in the minority here, but I saw the finale, understood what was happening, and loved every second of it.





wprager said:


> Not necessarily the minority. It's just that a few on the other side a re very vocal about it.


Those of us on the side that we didn't like it, its not that we didn't understand it. I understood it quite well. And it wasn't just the last episode that I didn't like, but the whole last season, when the show we were watching for all those years became a moot point. But we've been over it a thousand times.


----------



## wprager

We all understand it, and we understand each other. We simply disagree.


----------



## jkeegan

Feat not. After each of us die, we'll all be brought together in one thread where we can relive the show one more time together, and all leave at the same time.

); Miss ya, Lost


----------



## jlb

rondotcom said:


> I know I am in the minority here, but I saw the finale, understood what was happening, and loved every second of it.


I found that I loved any one episode (including the finale) more if I just let it wash over me rather than try to nitpick every detail and look for answers that I knew we would not get. The best shows are those that leave their endings ambiguous and leave you talking for a long time. And, guess what, we are still talking about Lost right now..... 



jkeegan said:


> Feat not. After each of us die, we'll all be brought together in one thread where we can relive the show one more time together, and all leave at the same time.
> 
> ); Miss ya, Lost


I just hope it is not post #108!!!


----------



## b_scott

Steveknj said:


> Those of us on the side that we didn't like it, its not that we didn't understand it. I understood it quite well. And it wasn't just the last episode that I didn't like, but the whole last season, when the show we were watching for all those years became a moot point. But we've been over it a thousand times.


It wasn't moot. Everything that happened in the season actually happened. The flash sideways were just bonus stuff.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

b_scott said:


> It wasn't moot. Everything that happened in the season actually happened. The flash sideways were just bonus stuff.


It was moot in the sense that it had little or nothing to do with the show to that point (and here we go again! )...


----------



## b_scott

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was moot in the sense that it had little or nothing to do with the show to that point (and here we go again! )...


But the quote I quoted said "when the show we were watching for all those years became a moot point"

Meaning the actual show was moot. I can agree the sideways flashes were moot, but not the island stories on the show.


----------



## aindik

b_scott said:


> But the quote I quoted said "when the show we were watching for all those years became a moot point"
> 
> Meaning the actual show was moot. I can agree the sideways flashes were moot, but not the island stories on the show.


The stuff happened. It just didn't seem to be very important, given the ending.


----------



## b_scott

aindik said:


> The stuff happened. It just didn't seem to be very important, given the ending.


I guess that would be true if you think nothing you do in life matters because you will eventually die.


----------



## wprager

jlb said:


> I found that I loved any one episode (including the finale) more if I just let it wash over me rather than try to nitpick every detail and look for answers that I knew we would not get. The best shows are those that leave their endings ambiguous and leave you talking for a long time. And, guess what, we are still talking about Lost right now.....
> 
> I just hope it is not post #108!!!


Or, to quote from one of my favorite movies: "You're so analytical! Sometimes you just have to let art... flow... over you."


----------



## DUDE_NJX

Well, what's the point of arguing? In reality, none of that happened 
It's not a documentary.


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was moot in the sense that it had little or nothing to do with the show to that point (and here we go again! )...





aindik said:


> The stuff happened. It just didn't seem to be very important, given the ending.


This and this.

It was a great show, and even the last season, if you took it as a completely different series, was really good (just didn't fit in with the other seasons IMO).

As I've said in MANY other threads, it was about the journey, not about the destination. The hours we spend discussing this show made the show what it was.


----------



## hummingbird_206

Steveknj said:


> Those of us on the side that we didn't like it, its not that we didn't understand it. I understood it quite well. And it wasn't just the last episode that I didn't like, but the whole last season, when the show we were watching for all those years became a moot point. But we've been over it a thousand times.


This sums up my feelings perfectly (thanks for typing for me!) I wish I had never watched the final season. If I ever do a rewatch, I'll skip the final season.


----------



## DevdogAZ

So are people saying they didn't like the flash-sideways in the final season? Because if it were up to me, I'd get rid of most of the on-island stuff from the final season and keep the flash-sideways.


----------



## Steveknj

hummingbird_206 said:


> This sums up my feelings perfectly (thanks for typing for me!) I wish I had never watched the final season. If I ever do a rewatch, I'll skip the final season.


I'd rewatch (and have tried a couple of times and never gotten past the first few episodes of S1, I end up watching stuff that I've never seen before first), and look for clues that try and make sense of the last season.


----------



## philw1776

DevdogAZ said:


> So are people saying they didn't like the flash-sideways in the final season? Because if it were up to me, I'd get rid of most of the on-island stuff from the final season and keep the flash-sideways.


I hated the final season but liked the sideways aspect. Great to see the band back together again. It did not harm or diminish the prior seasons, rather it enhanced them and let us savor the relationships one last time.

Why I hated the final is that after years they suddenly introduced 2 clowns who made the 1st several years pretty close to irrelevant.


----------



## Steveknj

philw1776 said:


> I hated the final season but liked the sideways aspect. Great to see the band back together again. It did not harm or diminish the prior seasons, rather it enhanced them and let us savor the relationships one last time.
> 
> *Why I hated the final is that after years they suddenly introduced 2 clowns who made the 1st several years pretty close to irrelevant.*


Yep, this. I've said, if the last season was a separate SERIES, I might have liked it, but in context it marginalized everything that happened before.


----------



## b_scott

philw1776 said:


> I hated the final season but liked the sideways aspect. Great to see the band back together again. It did not harm or diminish the prior seasons, rather it enhanced them and let us savor the relationships one last time.
> 
> Why I hated the final is that after years they suddenly introduced 2 clowns who made the 1st several years pretty close to irrelevant.


how? The whole series was moving toward "who is Jacob and what is the Island?" And that's where it ended.


----------



## astrohip

And so another year has passed. Seven years we've been Lost. And while one can debate many aspects of the show--the final season, the mysteries both solved and left open, the flashbacks, flashforwards and sideways--it was a series that inspired passion like few others. I know for me personally there has not been a watercooler show like Lost since.

Happy seven!


----------



## jkeegan

My daughter Emily and I miss this show something awful. Then again we (well, not Emily but the rest of us) did have Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, and The Leftovers since then. 

Seven years. Wow.


----------



## dianebrat

[trope] WE HAVE TO GO BACK! [/trope]


----------



## goblue97

astrohip said:


> And so another year has passed. Seven years we've been Lost. And while one can debate many aspects of the show--the final season, the mysteries both solved and left open, the flashbacks, flashforwards and sideways--it was a series that inspired passion like few others. I know for me personally there has not been a watercooler show like Lost since.
> 
> Happy seven!


Totally agree. I'd say the closest show to Lost would be Game of Thrones but that show had limited exposure due to being on HBO and the maturity of it. I remember getting excited to find out someone else was watching that show (Lost) and I had a whole new source of opinions to tap into.


----------



## Steveknj

goblue97 said:


> Totally agree. I'd say the closest show to Lost would be Game of Thrones but that show had limited exposure due to being on HBO and the maturity of it. I remember getting excited to find out someone else was watching that show (Lost) and I had a whole new source of opinions to tap into.


Agreed, I was going to say GoT as well. And yes, while it has limited exposure, it is available through means other than HBO now. Still the passion for Lost was still greater. First of all, I think it being a mystery in many ways makes it much more of a speculative show than GoT, which also has a book reference where many of us already knew what was going to happen. Lost didn't have that.

There have been other shows like Lost, but just not with the same widespread appeal. Fringe was one that comes to mind, but it just wasn't nearly as popular. Also, during Lost's run, there was a lot less available to watch, and DVRs weren't as prevalent, making it a must see on the night it aired, because people would be talking about it.


----------



## Hoffer

RegBarc said:


> Speaking of epic lulz, somone in the massive Lost thread over at Something Awful just got banned for 100,000 hours for posting a spoiler.
> 
> Isn't that like 11 and 1/2 years?


This guy only has 4.5 years left on his temp ban.


----------



## DUDE_NJX

Lost was the first show I binge watched (first 2 seasons).


----------



## b_scott

TWIN PEAKS is a good accompanying show to LOST.


----------



## getreal




----------



## nrnoble

A show like LOST only truely works when the writers\producers know how they are going to end the show from the very start. LOST started with a great idea, but there was no ending concept (a larger reality) that was the foundation for everything that followed the plane crash. There were lots of cool twists\turns\surprises\etc, but they were just great sci-fi ideas that added to the mystery of the island, those ideas were not linked to together when the showed ended. IMHO, they should have simply ended the show without attempting to explain anything because how the series ended appeared to be a final season effort to wrap things up the best they could after introducing so many different interwoven mysteries, yet in the end, didn't make sense or were just dead ends.

I'll concede, maybe is just didn't "get it" during the final moments of series finally. I was anticipating some kind of camera pull back exposing something simple and obvious that made everything in the series make perfect sense.


----------



## Steveknj

nrnoble said:


> A show like LOST only truely works when the writers\producers know how they are going to end the show from the very start. LOST started with a great idea, but there was no ending concept (a larger reality) that was the foundation for everything that followed the plane crash. There were lots of cool twists\turns\surprises\etc, but they were just great sci-fi ideas that added to the mystery of the island, those ideas were not linked to together when the showed ended. IMHO, they should have simply ended the show without attempting to explain anything because how the series ended appeared to be a final season effort to wrap things up the best they could after introducing so many different interwoven mysteries, yet in the end, didn't make sense or were just dead ends.
> 
> I'll concede, maybe is just didn't "get it" during the final moments of series finally. I was anticipating some kind of camera pull back exposing something simple and obvious that made everything in the series make perfect sense.


If the writers really wanted this to turn out to be the "game" between the two brothers, they should have ended it at the scene where Jacob and TMIB were talking at the end of the next to last season. Then at least, we would have gotten the idea of what they were trying to say. I'm not the writers, but I hated that whole thing and the last season made it worse, but at least with that little bit of a surprise ending, I'd have "gotten" it.

But I've said many times over the years, the best part of the series wasn't the ending, but the journey. Still one of the most well written series ever. Do you discount the whole Sopranos series because the ending was so vague? No, the series was great, but didn't have a great last episode. Same with Seinfeld and lots of others.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Steveknj said:


> If the writers really wanted this to turn out to be the "game" between the two brothers, they should have ended it at the scene where Jacob and TMIB were talking at the end of the next to last season.


And more importantly, they should have STARTED it years earlier.

I agree that it was a great show for several years. I just wish it could have ended up a great show, and instead, it goes down in my mind as a very good show that blew its potential for greatness in the last couple of years.


----------



## philw1776

Making a multi-year series suddenly about two moronic brothers pretty much out of the blue trivialized much of what we cared about plot wise over the years. Agreed, except for the characters's stories, although it also somewhat minimized their significance.
I did not have a problem with the postlude where some undefinable time later in some undefined variation of 21st century LA, everyone had a re-union of sorts.


----------



## jkeegan

Christ, this has now turned from some fun "oh yeah! I remember that awesome day we all shared the ending of Lost together!" anniversary into a "someone new comes along and bashes the ending, and stirs up lots of complaints" event. Haven't enough years gone by yet that the haters can just let their complaints go? Lost was awesome and the ending was awesome. If you didn't believe so, fine, but there's less justifiability for you to repeat that over the years then there is for those of us who enjoyed it to repeat our claims, at least from a "let's be positive about the world and only bother remembering the good stuff" point of view.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

That's pretty...arrogant. You are allowed to repeat your opinion, no matter how wrong, ad nauseam, but we, who are right, are not allowed to repeat ours.


----------



## jkeegan

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's pretty...arrogant. You are allowed to repeat your opinion, no matter how wrong, ad nauseam, but we, who are right, are not allowed to repeat ours.


I'm not trying to be arrogant, but seriously, why keep following a thread about the ending of a show that you didn't enjoy? Of course people aired both opinions when the ending happened. But it's been many years - why hold on to things you didn't enjoy?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

So you're saying I should just let go of all the things I loved about Lost over the years, just because the ending sucked?

Or that I should just shut up and go away because you don't feel the same way?

Sorry, either way doesn't really work for me...


----------



## jkeegan

Sigh. Maybe make a thread for people who love to hate the ending together, then link it here, and if you really want, you guys can reminisce about how much you all hated it together and get yourselves worked up about it? I mean, that's a negative emotion - I don't know why you'd want some alarm clock of negative emotion to go off every year, but if that's what you want, that's a great way to achieve it.

Most of us, I imagine, would not want to self-punish ourselves by experiencing something negative every year.

(I mean, myself, I was disappointed by the execution of Babylon 5... I spend zero time thinking about it unless someone else brings it up. I would absolutely never subscribe to a thread where we fight about it every year, when I don't like it).

Why not just talk about what you LIKED about the show, every year, here in this thread, and ***** about the crappy stuff somewhere else?

Seriously, there's a significant asymmetry here. Nostalgia for something pleasant and good is desirable. Nostalgia for something unpleasant and bad is not as desirable - it's only really good if it's to remind us about that for some reason, so we can all learn a lesson (like let's remember what happened to start this or that war, so history doesn't repeat itself).

Unless you think one of the people on this thread is a writer for a TV series and you think this particular thread about the last episode of Lost will cause them to learn some lesson about how you like endings, and change the ending of their new show, then it's not worth creating a recurring fight.

I suppose you could have an argument to make about "Then we should have two threads - one for people who liked the ending and one for people who didn't", but again why would people every year post in the "people who didn't like it" thread, saying "Hey! 5th year anniversary of that ending we didn't like! You might have been having a pleasant day today in our finite existence here on Earth, but have a slightly less pleasant day because of the bad memory of prior disappointment. Remember how we disliked that ending?".

As for enjoying the rest of the show that wasn't the ending, great! I suggest when the "it's been x years since the finale!" posts come up, talk about what you liked and stop rehashing an old fight. It's unpleasant. Or post your own "hey, here was an episode I LIKED. It's the xth anniversary of that one! Yay!" thread.

Or, post here negatively every year if you must, and cause fights and disappointments every year. That's your right. But that's a strange action to take, especially from someone who cares enough about appearances to bother calling someone else on here arrogant.

I'd rather remember our great moments together. There are enough fights on the web. Do we seriously need to contaminate this conversation too?


----------



## Hcour

Wow. Talk about negative emotions. If you're that upset that people disagree with you about a tv show, you really shouldn't be hanging out on a tv discussion board. Sheesh.


----------



## jkeegan

Hcour said:


> Wow. Talk about negative emotions. If you're that upset that people disagree with you about a tv show, you really shouldn't be hanging out on a tv discussion board. Sheesh.


Assuming you mean me, you're missing the point. It's not that someone disagrees with the great ending to Lost. It's that we have to have this argument AGAIN. This thread started in 2010. That means this has to be the *seventh* time (at least) that we have to keep having this fight. I didn't say anything after the first negative post this time - I let a few slide by, but then the pile-on of negativity demanded a reply.

We've had this fight enough already.


----------



## Mikeguy

Perhaps because I just didn't have the time or patience regularly to invest in Lost over so many years, I liked and appreciated the ending (and still have the final episode on my retired TiVo, along with the Jimmy Kimmel special on it)--go figure. But then, I've always appreciated Jean-Paul Sartre and "No Exit."


----------



## Peter000

jkeegan said:


> Assuming you mean me, you're missing the point. It's not that someone disagrees with the great ending to Lost. It's that we have to have this argument AGAIN. This thread started in 2010. That means this has to be the *seventh* time (at least) that we have to keep having this fight. I didn't say anything after the first negative post this time - I let a few slide by, but then the pile-on of negativity demanded a reply.
> 
> We've had this fight enough already.


Then don't fight about it. There's an "ignore thread" link you can use so you don't even have to look at the thread when it's resurrected.

I wasn't that hot on the ending, but I didn't think it sucked.


----------



## nrnoble

Steveknj said:


> But I've said many times over the years, the best part of the series wasn't the ending, but the journey. Still one of the most well written series ever. Do you discount the whole Sopranos series because the ending was so vague? No, the series was great, but didn't have a great last episode. Same with Seinfeld and lots of others.


I agree with the general idea that journey is more important than the ending, but it doesn't fit well with mysteries such as LOST or the Twilight Zone. LOST is a Twilight Zone story that spans 121 episodes. The Twists and turns were great, but IMHO, the writers (ie Damon Lindelof) had no clear direction, or concept that he was working from. Anyone can create a great mystery that has no resolution, just keep adding unexpected turns, one after another. The audience is intrigued by the Journey because they want to find out how everything fits together. If they know in advance that there is no ending, per se, they wouldn't go down the rabbit hole, they only go down it with the assumption that there is something interesting at the end. If there is nothing, then the journey has no point, it is just random stuff thrown in to keep the audience coming back.


----------



## Hcour

nrnoble said:


> I agree with the general idea that journey is more important than the ending, but it doesn't fit well with mysteries such as LOST or the Twilight Zone. LOST is a Twilight Zone story that spans 121 episodes. The Twists and turns were great, but IMHO, the writers (ie Damon Lindelof) had no clear direction, or concept that he was working from. Anyone can create a great mystery that has no resolution, just keep adding unexpected turns, one after another. The audience is intrigued by the Journey because they want to find out how everything fits together. If they know in advance that there is no ending, per se, they wouldn't go down the rabbit hole, they only go down it with the assumption that there is something interesting at the end. If there is nothing, then the journey has no point, it is just random stuff thrown in to keep the audience coming back.


Well said, sir! Lead me, lie to me, trick me, baffle me, enrage me, but take me _somewhere_.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I point to Leftovers as an example of Lindelof learning his lesson...it was a show that, while there was a big mystery in the plot, did not treat that mystery as central to the show itself. And then he went ahead and underpromised the ending (i.e., lowered expectations for closure rather than raised them, and then gave more closure than expected).

I strongly suspect that if Lindelof had it to do over again, he would do things differently on Lost both in terms of how he structured the show and in terms of how he dealt with the public. I guess my question would be how much of Lost's crack-like appeal was built on people being hooked on the mysteries...I think to some extent that's what drew us (or many of us) in as much as it did. Would it have been as big a hit if it had been a more honest show? I honestly don't know. Maybe, maybe not...


----------



## spartanstew

jkeegan said:


> Lost was awesome and the ending was awesome.


LOL, the ending was terrible.



jkeegan said:


> why keep following a thread about the ending of a show that you didn't enjoy?


Why would you follow this thread at all? It's been 7 years.


----------



## astrohip

spartanstew said:


> Why would you follow this thread at all? It's been 7 years.


In all fairness, I bump it every year on the anniversary. Where else can one get so much drama for the price?


----------



## Steveknj

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I point to Leftovers as an example of Lindelof learning his lesson...it was a show that, while there was a big mystery in the plot, did not treat that mystery as central to the show itself. And then he went ahead and underpromised the ending (i.e., lowered expectations for closure rather than raised them, and then gave more closure than expected).
> 
> I strongly suspect that if Lindelof had it to do over again, he would do things differently on Lost both in terms of how he structured the show and in terms of how he dealt with the public. I guess my question would be how much of Lost's crack-like appeal was built on people being hooked on the mysteries...I think to some extent that's what drew us (or many of us) in as much as it did. Would it have been as big a hit if it had been a more honest show? I honestly don't know. Maybe, maybe not...


The exact opposite happened on The Leftovers in IMO. The journey was really boring (at least to me, as I quit half way through) but from what I understand the ending was great. So, I ask you this, would you rather sit through 3-4 boring years just to get to a great ending, or sit through 3-4 great years and get to a boring ending? I'll take the latter.

I do get where people were really upset of the Lost ending, and me, I actually hated the whole last season for reasons I've stated over and over. But I absolutely loved everything before it. Enough that the ending, when looking back at the series, wasn't enough to spoil it for me. Same with Seinfeld and others I've mentioned. If Lost was as boring as The Leftovers through it's whole run, I'd never have stuck with it.

For me, as much as the mysteries were interesting on Lost, the people and the interactions between them were just as interesting, especially the first couple of years. Jack and Sawyer, Locke's backstory, Kate, Jack and Sawyers love triangle. I came back to see that as much as I did the mysteries.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel

The main disappointment I had with Lost is... in earlier seasons I was looking forward to rewatching it for the second time with all sorts of knowledge about the meaning behind things like smoke monsters, numbers, white horses. After the last season and finale, I never once thought of watching another episode of Lost ever again.


----------



## DaveMN

This thread has a lot of parallels to the show. What happened happened. Now we're all in purgatory, but instead of coming together and moving on to the next stage, we're stuck here bickering forever.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

DaveMN said:


> This thread has a lot of parallels to the show. What happened happened. Now we're all in purgatory, but instead of coming together and moving on to the next stage, we're stuck here bickering forever.


This is the next stage. This is the ending.

And boy, does it suck.


----------



## lew

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I point to Leftovers as an example of Lindelof learning his lesson...it was a show that, while there was a big mystery in the plot, did not treat that mystery as central to the show itself. And then he went ahead and underpromised the ending (i.e., lowered expectations for closure rather than raised them, and then gave more closure than expected).
> .


Network TV still wants 20+ episodes a season with a show running a few years longer then it should. Premium cable, and streaming services, do a better job working with the producers. Fewer episodes a year. It's OK to stop when you think you've finished telling the story. Even today. Shows like Quantico would be better served, JMO, as one and done.

I've managed to remember what I liked about Lost more then what I didn't like. The ending was better then I expected, given the twists and turns we were given. They could have tied everything up perfectly. An alien running everything. The entire show taking place over a couple of days. We find out the entire show was the memory of one or more passengers eating hallucinogenic plants. Everyone died on the plane crash, the entire show was purgatory. I'll take the ending we got over any of the obvious "tie everything up in a bow" alternatives.

What we got tied up a lot, in a matter consistent with the mythology of the show. The show would have been better if the number of seasons was known to the producers from the beginning.


----------



## dhelsley

jkeegan said:


> Assuming you mean me, you're missing the point. It's not that someone disagrees with the great ending to Lost. It's that we have to have this argument AGAIN. This thread started in 2010. That means this has to be the *seventh* time (at least) that we have to keep having this fight. I didn't say anything after the first negative post this time - I let a few slide by, but then the pile-on of negativity demanded a reply.
> 
> We've had this fight enough already.


FWIW, I agree with everything you said, and I also share your feelings regarding the ending. It would be nice to not need to rehash the same arguments ad nauseam. I can understand the detractor's side and actually my wife and mother were in that camp, but we had our discussion years ago and agreed to disagree. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but an anniversary is supposed to be for celebration. My wife and I never spent our anniversary *****ing about all the things that went wrong during our wedding. We focused on all the good moments because they were worth remembering.


----------



## Steve-O

We have to go back!


----------



## astrohip

Steve-O said:


> We have to go back!


And we do... once a year. :up:


----------



## philw1776

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> The main disappointment I had with Lost is... in earlier seasons I was looking forward to rewatching it for the second time with all sorts of knowledge about the meaning behind things like smoke monsters, numbers, white horses. After the last season and finale, I never once thought of watching another episode of Lost ever again.


Precisely my reaction. I bought Blu-Ray of all but the last season on sale on Amazon figuring I could savor the series time and again. But after the writers went with the two mentally challenged brothers, I've never watched an episode.

I DO have a warm feeling of regard for LOST and am glad I watched the series experiencing the journey, the mystery and the characters. Just knowing how the end pretty much made everything irrelevant keeps me from repeating the journey.


----------



## dianebrat

I also have to add that in the years since it finished up it's become almost a national past time to crap on the Lost finale and this thread seems to prove it out, for many of us the finale wasn't all we had hoped for, but the last season hit a number of the right notes and we were at peace with the ending being weak because the journey was so strong.


----------



## jkeegan

philw1776 said:


> Precisely my reaction. I bought Blu-Ray of all but the last season on sale on Amazon figuring I could savor the series time and again. But after the writers went with the two mentally challenged brothers, I've never watched an episode.
> 
> I DO have a warm feeling of regard for LOST and am glad I watched the series experiencing the journey, the mystery and the characters. Just knowing how the end pretty much made everything irrelevant keeps me from repeating the journey.


I rewatched with my kids and loved every episode of thE rewatch. I recommend letting go of the hate and enjoying the show again.


----------



## brermike

I've done a rewatch of LOST every year or so since it ended and enjoy it every time. I still find things I didn't notice or have just forgotten. Aside from some minor quibbles I was very happy with the show, including the ending. It was and continues to be very emotional. I've seen many great shows, but LOST is still my favorite show, quibbles and all.


----------



## mrizzo80

brermike said:


> I've done a rewatch of LOST every year or so since it ended and enjoy it every time. I still find things I didn't notice or have just forgotten. Aside from some minor quibbles I was very happy with the show, including the ending. It was and continues to be very emotional. I've seen many great shows, but LOST is still my favorite show, quibbles and all.


I could probably do a full rewatch every 12-18 months. I think I finished up my first rewatch early last summer. I could easily start it up again right now, but there's such a backlog of great TV that I haven't seen at all yet. _The Wire _is likely leaving Amazon Prime in 2018, so I started that a few days ago rather than go thru _LOST _again.

If I could only watch like 5 TV shows for the rest of my life, _LOST _is the only show that instantly comes to mind as a must keep.


----------



## Mikeguy

mrizzo80 said:


> If I could only watch like 5 TV shows for the rest of my life, _LOST _is the only show that instantly comes to mind as a must keep.


Add to the list: "The West Wing" (the only series I've ever purchased on DVD).


----------



## astrohip

Mikeguy said:


> Add to the list: "The West Wing" (the only series I've ever purchased on DVD).


I never watched The West Wing when it aired, so I've been slow-binging it on Netflix. I'm almost at the end of S3.


----------



## Mikeguy

astrohip said:


> I never watched The West Wing when it aired, so I've been slow-binging it on Netflix. I'm almost at the end of S3.


Ah, you're in the glory years! Aaron Sorkin left after season 4, and to me, there was a change in the show's tone--he had a way to bring out the pathos and humanity in the show, the tears and the joy. Having said that, the final years brought out the joy of watching the acting chops of Alan Alda and Jimmy Smits, and the scenes between Smits and Teri Polo (as his wife) are some of my favorites, on the personal/romantic level (not a great focus in the series)--in my fantasy world, I've always envisioned a continuation of the series with the 2 of them (although, in reality, there had been consideration of the series continuing on with Alda).

I might also recommend, in the Sorkin world, if you haven't watched it: "Sports Night," the precursor to "The West Wing" in the sports broadcasting world, with tour de force acting by Josh Charles, Peter Krause, Felicity Huffman (!), Sabrina Lloyd (!), and Josh Malina. The only issue, for me as a fan: it's a half-hour show, and there are only 2 seasons--I would like more.


----------



## astrohip

Mikeguy said:


> I might also recommend, in the Sorkin world, if you haven't watched it: "Sports Night," the precursor to "The West Wing" in the sports broadcasting world, with tour de force acting by Josh Charles, Peter Krause, Felicity Huffman (!), Sabrina Lloyd (!), and Josh Malina. The only issue, for me as a fan: it's a half-hour show, and there are only 2 seasons--I would like more.


Sports Night is one of the few series I own on DVD. Amazingly good series. You can see the developing Sorkin skills in SN.


----------



## ct1

Mikeguy said:


> I might also recommend, in the Sorkin world, if you haven't watched it: "Sports Night," the precursor to "The West Wing" in the sports broadcasting world, with tour de force acting by Josh Charles, Peter Krause, Felicity Huffman (!), Sabrina Lloyd (!), and Josh Malina. The only issue, for me as a fan: it's a half-hour show, and there are only 2 seasons--I would like more.


Don't forget Newsroom too. In this era of "Fake News", you can learn all about it...

(This isn't a spoiler, it is the opening scene.)


----------



## MikeBear

I recorded the finale on my dvr at the time. I then watched it THREE times total before I got ALL the sub-texts going on.

It got better at each viewing, (as I caught/noticed more) until I realized it was pure genius, and made 100% sense.


----------



## astrohip

MikeBear said:


> I recorded the finale on my dvr at the time.


Still have it on my TiVo.


----------



## Steveknj

astrohip said:


> I never watched The West Wing when it aired, so I've been slow-binging it on Netflix. I'm almost at the end of S3.


I started binging this, but it takes SO much time to binge a network drama since each it about 50 minutes and there are more than 20 episodes per season. I don't know if i have the bandwidth to commit myself to it.


----------



## Steveknj

Mikeguy said:


> I might also recommend, in the Sorkin world, if you haven't watched it: "Sports Night," the precursor to "The West Wing" in the sports broadcasting world, with tour de force acting by Josh Charles, Peter Krause, Felicity Huffman (!), Sabrina Lloyd (!), and Josh Malina. The only issue, for me as a fan: it's a half-hour show, and there are only 2 seasons--I would like more.


I second Sports Night. Although going back and rewatching, for some reason I like it less than I did during my first time through it. Not sure why, but I suspect it's being WAY too aware of how Sorkin writes which can be a bit redundant and annoying.


----------



## Mikeguy

ct1 said:


> Don't forget Newsroom too. In this era of "Fake News", you can learn all about it...
> 
> (This isn't a spoiler, it is the opening scene.)


I think I've watched through the series 3 times now.  Have to give it a hiatus, as I have too much memorized at this point. Once again, wonderful acting, from all the actors--Jeff Daniels and Emily Mortimer as true artists in action.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Mikeguy said:


> I might also recommend, in the Sorkin world, if you haven't watched it: "Sports Night," the precursor to "The West Wing" in the sports broadcasting world, with tour de force acting by Josh Charles, Peter Krause, Felicity Huffman (!), Sabrina Lloyd (!), and Josh Malina. The only issue, for me as a fan: it's a half-hour show, and there are only 2 seasons--I would like more.


How can you list out all those actors and not include Robert Giullaume?


----------



## Mikeguy

DevdogAZ said:


> How can you list out all those actors and not include Robert Giullaume?


I've often enjoyed his acting. But he wasn't a favorite of mine in SN . . . .


----------



## philw1776

jkeegan said:


> I rewatched with my kids and loved every episode of thE rewatch. I recommend letting go of the hate and enjoying the show again.


Why bother? The show creators punched the viewers showing our interest was futile.


----------



## dianebrat

philw1776 said:


> Why bother? The show creators punched the viewers showing our interest was futile.


You stated why you weren't happy in your last post, that should be sufficient and now you're just thread crapping.. that's not cool,


----------



## ct1

It was a heck of a lot of fun to go back and rewatch the whole series after actually knowing the story. A lot of things that confused me before made a lot more sense. I even found the ending much more satisfying after a complete rewatch than the first time.


----------



## getreal

ct1 said:


> It was a heck of a lot of fun to go back and rewatch the whole series after actually knowing the story. A lot of things that confused me before made a lot more sense. I even found the ending much more satisfying after a complete rewatch than the first time.


So knowing how it was going to turn out (on second viewing) was not a "spoiler", but an "enhancer".
<Arte Johnson>Verrry Intereth-ting!"</Arte Johnson>


----------



## philw1776

dianebrat said:


> You stated why you weren't happy in your last post, that should be sufficient and now you're just thread crapping.. that's not cool,


I will decide whether to respond to a post, not you.


----------



## dianebrat

philw1776 said:


> I will decide whether to respond to a post, not you.


Sensitive much? My point was that thread crapping is not cool and not something encouraged at TCF, but you seemed determined to do just that.


----------



## Steveknj

ct1 said:


> It was a heck of a lot of fun to go back and rewatch the whole series after actually knowing the story. A lot of things that confused me before made a lot more sense. I even found the ending much more satisfying after a complete rewatch than the first time.


This was my thought, when I set out rewatching...maybe that last season won't seem as bad if I can spot clues as to why it all made sense. That said, I've only ever made it into the second season before I decided to watch other things I haven't seen before.


----------



## gweempose

jkeegan said:


> I rewatched with my kids and loved every episode of the rewatch. I recommend letting go of the hate and enjoying the show again.


Ditto. My wife and I rewatched the entire series with our son a couple years ago. We both enjoyed it just as much the second time around. It's amazing how well the show holds up even when you already know the answers to many of the mysteries. In my opinion, Lost remains one of the best series in the history of television. It wasn't perfect, but it excelled in so many ways.


----------



## unixadm

jkeegan said:


> I rewatched with my kids and loved every episode of thE rewatch. I recommend letting go of the hate and enjoying the show again.


Last year, I re-watched with my kids...crazy binge watching....6 seasons in a few months! 

I have to say that I really enjoyed seeing it again. Loved seeing my boy's excitement as to what was happening in a show, and the "can we watch another episode tonight" that always followed. I wasn't disappointed in the ending as many were....it really ended up in the only logical place it could considering where the writers took the show, and I was satisfied with the finale.



ct1 said:


> It was a heck of a lot of fun to go back and rewatch the whole series after actually knowing the story. A lot of things that confused me before made a lot more sense. I even found the ending much more satisfying after a complete rewatch than the first time.


Totally agree....seeing it a second time all the way through, especially in binge mode, made a lot of things come together. I was good with the ending the first time, but agree that it is a bit more satisfying after a rewatch where all of the early seasons are still fresh in mind.

That being said, I could see during our binge watching that the story took a bunch of crazy jumps after the 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons which in retrospect had no bearing on the beginning or the end. I really think that the original concept was thought up with a 2-3 year season ending but when it got so popular, like so many other franchises (i.e. Marvel), Hollywood milked it for all it was worth. I know Lindelof and Cuse have said that they had already developed the story ideas for first season and knew what the ending scene was going to be....neither which involved two dueling brothers, time travel, etc. The rest was developed before each season, many of the twists and rabbit holes only to get lots of "wow" talking points for the Lost viral chatter and not to further the storyline or ever have an explainable conclusion. I picture writers sitting in a room trying to figure out what else they could add to the story to maximize the Thursday morning "Lost talk" and stretch it out as long as possible....."why don't we now make them travel through time....that will surprise everyone, confuse people and lets us write off so many unexplainable things" ....."oh, and we can add two brothers who represent good and evil....white shirt and black shirt, no one will expect that". I know there was a Hollywood writer's strike in between somewhere, which also affected some of the writing of many shows, making them shift gears.

Funny thing is that for me, the first few seasons were the best, and the final scene fit those seasons....they should have just wrapped up with that, without the donkey wheel and island jumping through time, or white shirt/black shirt brothers, etc.....it was still a fantastic story without the extra stuff that was made to stretch out the inevitable ending.

I think it was an amazing show regardless, well written overall, well produced, and the journey to get to the end was well worth all the time invested in watching (and re-watching). Even though I loved the show, I do agree with others that have said that had it had been more planned at the onset, with a beginning, middle and end, that all flowed together evenly, more people may have been able to accept the finale ending scene as a logical and good ending.


----------



## stellie93

Actually I liked the time travel parts a lot. They handled it well and if I'm remembering correctly--I haven't watched for years--it all added up and made sense (not always the case with time travel )

Now that we're getting close to the end of GoT and we're guessing at the ending-- it so hard to come up with a really awesome ending to shows like this. I hope GoT will do better--I think it will because we know that it was all figured out in advance in this case.....


----------



## philw1776

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's pretty...arrogant. You are allowed to repeat your opinion, no matter how wrong, ad nauseam, but we, who are right, are not allowed to repeat ours.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> So you're saying I should just let go of all the things I loved about Lost over the years, just because the ending sucked?
> 
> Or that I should just shut up and go away because you don't feel the same way?
> 
> Sorry, either way doesn't really work for me...


Danger! Danger Will Robinson! Thread Police!


----------



## mrizzo80

_LOST _is leaving Netflix in 3 weeks according to multiple threads on reddit. 

LOST • r/lost


----------



## Steveknj

mrizzo80 said:


> _LOST _is leaving Netflix in 3 weeks according to multiple threads on reddit.
> 
> LOST • r/lost


I'm glad I have the DVD set, but I was watching on Netflix because of better resolution.


----------



## Peter000

Is it going to be streaming anywhere?


----------



## mrizzo80

Peter000 said:


> Is it going to be streaming anywhere?


It will probably eventually land on the OTT service Disney is developing, but I don't think that service will be available until 2019. It's possible Hulu will pick it up in the interim - they seem to be taking the lead in library content that Netflix has held for so long.

It's also possible Netflix is in the process of re-negotiating the streaming rights and that it won't actually leave the service.


----------



## realityboy

Lost is now available on Hulu.

'Lost' Lands At Hulu After Netflix Deal Expires


----------



## mrizzo80

It's funny that Hulu also had issues with the finale and are in the process of getting the "full" version.

Also, from the LOST subreddit: Imgur: The magic of the Internet

(does XenForo not support embedding imgur links?)


----------



## betts4

I was sad about losing LOST from Netflix because as said, it was easier to just click it on there then pull out a dvd. When I heard it was being dropped I started binge watching for a few days. I had forgotten how great a show it was.


----------



## Steveknj

betts4 said:


> I was sad about losing LOST from Netflix because as said, it was easier to just click it on there then pull out a dvd. When I heard it was being dropped I started binge watching for a few days. I had forgotten how great a show it was.


I didn't do the binge watch and I also have the DVDs, but like you, it was easier (and better resolution) to watch on Netflix. I don't have Hulu so it's back to the DVDs when I feel like watching. I think my rewatch I started a few months ago got me to S3


----------



## BrettStah

mrizzo80 said:


> It's funny that Hulu also had issues with the finale and are in the process of getting the "full" version.
> 
> Also, from the LOST subreddit: Imgur: The magic of the Internet
> 
> (does XenForo not support embedding imgur links?)


You have to link directly to the image (typically it'll have a JPG or GIF extension). Here's your image:

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Tony_T

betts4 said:


> I was sad about losing LOST from Netflix because as said, it was easier to just click it on there then pull out a dvd. &#8230;


Now that LOST is on Hulu I can just click it instead of pulling out a DVD


----------



## Peter000

I bought the the BD's of Lost while it was on the air. I kind of regret that now. I've barely touched them since.


----------



## scooterboy

Peter000 said:


> I bought the the BD's of Lost while it was on the air. I kind of regret that now. I've barely touched them since.


This, but with a slight modification:

I bought the BD's of Lost while it was on the air lots of DVDs and BDs over the years. I kind of regret that now. I've barely touched them since.


----------



## Peter000

scooterboy said:


> This, but with a slight modification:
> 
> I bought the BD's of Lost while it was on the air lots of DVDs and BDs over the years. I kind of regret that now. I've barely touched them since.


True 'nuff.


----------



## astrohip

Has it been eight? Then we must celebrate!

Eight years ago tonight, LOST aired its finale. No show of the modern TV era had more impact. One still sees taglines like "From the producers of Lost" used to promote new shows. Or a scene in Westworld just last week that had people comparing it to the opening scene of S2E1 (Man of Science, Man of Faith). Love it or hate it, it changed the way many of us watched TV.

Happy Anniversary Lost. See you next year!


----------



## jlb

And in a weird cosmic alignment, on the same day as the 8th anniversary of the finale airing, Survivor Ghost Island has its finale.....


----------



## Steveknj

jlb said:


> And in a weird cosmic alignment, on the same day as the 8th anniversary of the finale airing, Survivor Ghost Island has its finale.....


Is Survivor purgatory?


----------



## jlb

Steveknj said:


> Is Survivor purgatory?


Who knows. It might be unless Jeff Probst is able to move Ghost Island...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nickels

All I know is, I am very much looking forward to my kids getting a little bit older and enjoying this journey all over again. Once they are old enough to appreciate it, that is. The finale wasn't so bad. The way the show was constantly asking more questions than it answered, no ending would have satisfied everyone.


----------



## DUDE_NJX

nickels said:


> All I know is, I am very much looking forward to my kids getting a little bit older and enjoying this journey all over again. Once they are old enough to appreciate it, that is. The finale wasn't so bad. The way the show was constantly asking more questions than it answered, no ending would have satisfied everyone.


It's not the viewers' fault, though.


----------



## jlb

nickels said:


> All I know is, I am very much looking forward to my kids getting a little bit older and enjoying this journey all over again. Once they are old enough to appreciate it, that is. The finale wasn't so bad. The way the show was constantly asking more questions than it answered, no ending would have satisfied everyone.


Exactly!

Once you stop trying to explain everything, once you stop putting every weird name into an anagram server (I'm talking to you Hoffs/Drawlar Funeral Parlor), and just let the storytelling wash over you, it's bliss!

And I still think there is a high correlation between who liked and didn't like the finale to those who would consider themselves a person of faith vs a person of science. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dianebrat

> KATE! We have to go back!!


----------



## Donbadabon

You all everybody - Driveshaft


----------



## Peter000

astrohip said:


> No show of the modern TV era had more impact.


I was a huge fan of the series. But I would argue that fact. I'm not _going _to argue, but IMO? Nope.

And, has it been only 8 years? It seems more like 20 to me. I guess I haven't really thought about it in so long that it's like other "dead" series to me, like MASH or Buffy.


----------



## astrohip

Peter000 said:


> I was a huge fan of the series. But I would argue that fact. I'm not _going _to argue, but IMO? Nope.


This is as good a place as any, and the discussion here is always stimulating. Let's say that whatever one picks, that series should be broad-natured in impact. So it's not just you, but to a huge swath of TV viewers. Also, it's not what's best. There are at least a couple that were better (Breaking Bad immediately comes to mind), but IMHO nothing had the impact that Lost did. It's the only show I ever discussed at work with a variety of people--not just TV junkies or scifi heads, but the purchasing clerk. The first show that had me reading online analyses. And forum threads.

Limit to the last 20 years or so.


----------



## hefe

8 years!

Oh my goth!


----------



## Peter000

astrohip said:


> This is as good a place as any, and the discussion here is always stimulating. Let's say that whatever one picks, that series should be broad-natured in impact. So it's not just you, but to a huge swath of TV viewers. Also, it's not what's best. There are at least a couple that were better (Breaking Bad immediately comes to mind), but IMHO nothing had the impact that Lost did. It's the only show I ever discussed at work with a variety of people--not just TV junkies or scifi heads, but the purchasing clerk. The first show that had me reading online analyses. And forum threads.
> 
> Limit to the last 20 years or so.


How did it impact TV as a whole going forward? That's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about it's effect on the viewer. Of course it's going to impact a regular viewer or that person wouldn't be a regular viewer.

After it was off the air, it just seemed to be forgotten for the most part.


----------



## cmontyburns

Peter000 said:


> How did it impact TV as a whole going forward? That's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about it's effect on the viewer. Of course it's going to impact a regular viewer or that person wouldn't be a regular viewer.
> 
> After it was off the air, it just seemed to be forgotten for the most part.


I think it had a pretty direct cause-and-effect relationship to the now-common longform style of television storytelling. And also, as you suggest, on the viewer side of that equation, particularly the weekly community deconstruction (enabled by the internet, of which Lost was an early beneficiary and also victim) of that same form. Westworld, for example, is a 100% linear descendant of Lost on both counts.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

astrohip said:


> This is as good a place as any, and the discussion here is always stimulating. Let's say that whatever one picks, that series should be broad-natured in impact. So it's not just you, but to a huge swath of TV viewers. Also, it's not what's best. There are at least a couple that were better (Breaking Bad immediately comes to mind), but IMHO nothing had the impact that Lost did. It's the only show I ever discussed at work with a variety of people--not just TV junkies or scifi heads, but the purchasing clerk. The first show that had me reading online analyses. And forum threads.
> 
> Limit to the last 20 years or so.


Yeah, no matter how much the ending sucked (and I think it well and truly sucked), I can't think of another show in recent decades that's had that much impact. Game of Thrones may be in the same ball-park, but that's just because it does so much of what Lost did. With added boobs and decapitations.


----------



## BrettStah

The Sopranos seems pretty influential.


----------



## mrizzo80

I'm really glad Hulu picked _Lost _up. It kinda sucked when Netflix announced it was leaving their service recently. I always want to have access to this show on SVOD.


----------



## Peter000

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, no matter how much the ending sucked (and I think it well and truly sucked), I can't think of another show in recent decades that's had that much impact. Game of Thrones may be in the same ball-park, but that's just because it does so much of what Lost did. With added boobs and decapitations.


I'm just going to disagree. I don't see it. Lost had nothing to do with GOT's success.


----------



## sushikitten

I remember buying all of the Blu-ray discs so that when it was over I could re-watch from the beginning. After the last couple episodes and the finale I sold all the DVDs sight unseen.


----------



## Mikeguy

sushikitten said:


> I remember buying all of the Blu-ray discs so that when it was over I could re-watch from the beginning. After the last couple episodes and the finale I sold all the DVDs sight unseen.


That's funny.  I guess there was a value to not being a dyed-in-the-wool fan: (my apologies in advance) I enjoyed and understood the conclusion.


----------



## Mikeguy

Oh, and more influential than "Lost": "The Mary Tyler Moore Show." Possibly, "The West Wing" (but its general excellence makes it a bit difficult to tell if it also was influential).


----------



## sushikitten

Mikeguy said:


> That's funny.  I guess there was a value to not being a dyed-in-the-wool fan: (my apologies in advance) I enjoyed and understood the conclusion.


I understood the conclusion but I wanted way more answers to all of the things they had brought up during the past seasons that they just dropped.


----------



## hefe

Influencing is not the same as "responsible for its success."


----------



## astrohip

Mikeguy said:


> Oh, and more influential than "Lost": "The Mary Tyler Moore Show." Possibly, "The West Wing" (but its general excellence makes it a bit difficult to tell if it also was influential).


I mean _influence _in the sense of changing the way we "talk/discuss/watch" TV. West Wing was an incredible show, but I'm not sure how it changed TV. Lost (IMHO) actually changed the playing field. Shows started being dissected, the Internet played a huge role, screen caps became a thing, yada yada.

Lost created a new norm.


----------



## gweempose

BrettStah said:


> The Sopranos seems pretty influential.


Yep. The Sopranos is the only other modern show I can think of that had such a significant impact on the television landscape.


----------



## Mikeguy

astrohip said:


> I mean _influence _in the sense of changing the way we "talk/discuss/watch" TV. West Wing was an incredible show, but I'm not sure how it changed TV. Lost (IMHO) actually changed the playing field. Shows started being dissected, the Internet played a huge role, screen caps became a thing, yada yada.
> 
> Lost created a new norm.


And "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" established a "new way" that single women were looked at, what they could do, and a new level for a half-hour comedy show. And what a woman could do in television as an actress and producer.

As I said, with "The West Wing," it can be harder to dissect its importance, because it simply was so excellent. Perhaps that's part of its influence, the establishment of such a high level of competence in so many ways, including the writing and import of the story--setting a bar of excellence for a show like "Lost" to reach. Within the industry, "The West Wing" also cemented the idea of and technology for the walk-and-talk sequence, which has become a standard and forms a basis in docudramas and realistic filmography today.


----------



## RGM1138

It’s interesting that the show is still being discussed, lo these many years later. I tried to keep into it but couldn’t. 

I guess it was my first attempt at long form, nonlinear storytelling. But, for some reason, it never grabbed me by the hand and demanded that I become invested like I have with Westworld.


----------



## Mikeguy

RGM1138 said:


> It's interesting that the show is still being discussed, lo these many years later. I tried to keep into it but couldn't.
> 
> I guess it was my first attempt at long form, nonlinear storytelling. But, for some reason, it never grabbed me by the hand and demanded that I become invested like I have with Westworld.


That raises another influence of "Lost": nonlinear storytelling. I can't recall but, has any other show done that, with so much time-jumping and jumping between different storylines?

On the influence track, here are other shows that have done it: as much as I don't enjoy it, "Survivor"--established/cemented the modern television reality show; "The Tonight Show" (and I mean going back to the original, with Jack Parr)--established the late night talk show, and disrupted/established late night viewer habits (including the placement of a television in the bedroom, affecting evening bedroom custom).


----------



## Steveknj

astrohip said:


> I mean _influence _in the sense of changing the way we "talk/discuss/watch" TV. West Wing was an incredible show, but I'm not sure how it changed TV. Lost (IMHO) actually changed the playing field. Shows started being dissected, the Internet played a huge role, screen caps became a thing, yada yada.
> 
> Lost created a new norm.


I will agree with you to this extent. For me at least, it was the first show that I ever spent hours online and elsewhere talking about each episode (especially here at TCF), pouring through ever detail, trying to figure out what everything meant. The cottage industry of wiki's and Lost dedicated websites that came from Lost were unprecedented. I think THAT'S how ti changed the way we watched TV. There have been plenty of watercolor shows before. Seinfeld, Twin Peaks, The West Wing, The X-FIle, The Sopranos (which was the show that made me resubscribe to HBO after hearing coworkers talking about it). But none to the extent of Lost. And I think shows like Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Game of Thrones and others that had this type of cult like following, with threads 100 or more messages long per episode. That's what Lost did that was groundbreaking.


----------



## Steveknj

RGM1138 said:


> It's interesting that the show is still being discussed, lo these many years later. I tried to keep into it but couldn't.
> 
> I guess it was my first attempt at long form, nonlinear storytelling. But, for some reason, it never grabbed me by the hand and demanded that I become invested like I have with Westworld.


I'm the opposite. While I like Westworld, I LOVED Lost. I looked forward to spending time in the Lost threads. I read a page of the Westworld thread and I'm bored. Despite it's sometimes convoluted story line, I felt Lost was actually pretty easy to follow. Westworld is impossible to follow unless you pay strict attention to it. The writers try to outsmart the viewers.


----------



## RGM1138

Steveknj said:


> I'm the opposite. While I like Westworld, I LOVED Lost. I looked forward to spending time in the Lost threads. I read a page of the Westworld thread and I'm bored. Despite it's sometimes convoluted story line, I felt Lost was actually pretty easy to follow. Westworld is impossible to follow unless you pay strict attention to it. The writers try to outsmart the viewers.


Yes, I guess it seems like that. I tried to stay with Lost, but Smoke Monsters, polar bears and some of the characters just made me lose interest. As best I can remember.


----------



## gweempose

Mikeguy said:


> That raises another influence of "Lost": nonlinear storytelling. I can't recall but, has any other show done that, with so much time-jumping and jumping between different storylines?


Lost definitely created a new kind of template with the way it used flashbacks to give insight into the characters. This technique has become so commonplace that we don't even think about it anymore, but it's undeniable that popular shows like This is Us, Scandal, Handmaid's Tale, and even Orange is the New Black have a lot of Lost in their DNA.


----------



## hefe

I actually thought of Lost when watching the couple episodes of Lost in Space that I've seen, with the flashbacks they used.


----------



## jlb

sushikitten said:


> I remember buying all of the Blu-ray discs so that when it was over I could re-watch from the beginning. After the last couple episodes and the finale I sold all the DVDs sight unseen.


Before you had sold either the BDs or DVDs? Did you find the "hidden" disc with the "epilogue footage" (so to speak)?


----------



## sushikitten

jlb said:


> Before you had sold either the BDs or DVDs? Did you find the "hidden" disc with the "epilogue footage" (so to speak)?


Yep.


----------



## RGM1138

They had to have an epilogue?


----------



## Peter000

RGM1138 said:


> They had to have an epilogue?


The didn't HAVE to. But they had one anyway.


----------



## stellie93

Steveknj said:


> I'm the opposite. While I like Westworld, I LOVED Lost. I looked forward to spending time in the Lost threads. I read a page of the Westworld thread and I'm bored. Despite it's sometimes convoluted story line, I felt Lost was actually pretty easy to follow. Westworld is impossible to follow unless you pay strict attention to it. The writers try to outsmart the viewers.


Glad to hear you say that. I got the DVD of the first season of Westworld fully expecting to love it, and I just couldn't get into it at all. I think part of the trouble was that I didn't try to hunt up the threads here, and part that,as usual, I wasn't paying enough attention. Is it really good? Worth trying again to struggle through?


----------



## Peter000

stellie93 said:


> Is it really good? Worth trying again to struggle through?


I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but "meh." IMO it tries too hard to be deep, opaque and mysterious, and perhaps succeeds too well. I quit after the first season.


----------



## RGM1138

Peter000 said:


> I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but "meh." IMO it tries too hard to be deep, opaque and mysterious, and perhaps succeeds too well. I quit after the first season.


Yeah, but you got to _want _it.



Westworld may be too clever for its own good, I dunno. Most of the posters in those threads understand it much better than I do. And I don't have any idea what they'll do with a third season.

But, it has intrigued me much more that Lost ever did. So, I come here to pick the massive TCF Hive Mind to try and keep up.


----------



## DevdogAZ

stellie93 said:


> Glad to hear you say that. I got the DVD of the first season of Westworld fully expecting to love it, and I just couldn't get into it at all. I think part of the trouble was that I didn't try to hunt up the threads here, and part that,as usual, I wasn't paying enough attention. Is it really good? Worth trying again to struggle through?


Season 1 got a lot of criticism because it seemed the writers were too focused on making the show a puzzle with a big shocking reveal in the season finale. But when most of the online fandom figured out the "big twist" pretty early on in S1, it kind of highlighted the way the show lacked some storytelling in favor of mystery. But I think S2 has been really good so far. I think the producers realized that with the way the internet dissects things, they can't really expect to have a mystery that remains unsolved for an entire season, so they're unraveling things in a more straightforward fashion.


----------



## Steveknj

Peter000 said:


> I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but "meh." IMO it tries too hard to be deep, opaque and mysterious, and perhaps succeeds too well. I quit after the first season.


Exactly what I think. As mentioned, unless I pay full attention, I get lost. I don't like how they do flashbacks. Because the "hosts" don't age, it's very difficult to tell the difference between times unless there's a human in the scene and it's established that the human is an already existing character, which often isn't clear. They just get too cute with the writing.


----------



## Steveknj

DevdogAZ said:


> Season 1 got a lot of criticism because it seemed the writers were too focused on making the show a puzzle with a big shocking reveal in the season finale. But when most of the online fandom figured out the "big twist" pretty early on in S1, it kind of highlighted the way the show lacked some storytelling in favor of mystery. But I think S2 has been really good so far. I think the producers realized that with the way the internet dissects things, they can't really expect to have a mystery that remains unsolved for an entire season, so they're unraveling things in a more straightforward fashion.


I will agree with this. Once they stopped jumping around from timeline to timeline so much it's been a bit easier to follow. Still don't like it as much as some here, but I'm still watching.


----------



## Mikeguy

jlb said:


> Before you had sold either the BDs or DVDs? Did you find the "hidden" disc with the "epilogue footage" (so to speak)?


Could you elaborate, for us more casual watchers?


----------



## RGM1138

Mikeguy said:


> Could you elaborate, for us more casual watchers?


Somehow, they all ended up on the Newhart set.


----------



## Mikeguy

stellie93 said:


> Glad to hear you say that. I got the DVD of the first season of Westworld fully expecting to love it, and I just couldn't get into it at all. I think part of the trouble was that I didn't try to hunt up the threads here, and part that,as usual, I wasn't paying enough attention. Is it really good? Worth trying again to struggle through?


I felt the same way, to a degree, from all the Western aspects--I'm just not a heavy Western guy. (I found the same thing in the original "Westworld" movie.) But once the show started featuring more of the harder core SciFi aspects, it picked up for me.


----------



## RGM1138

Mikeguy said:


> I felt the same way, to a degree, from all the Western aspects--I'm just not a heavy Western guy. (I found the same thing in the original "Westworld" movie.) But once the show started featuring more of the harder core SciFi aspects, it picked up for me.


I loved the original, deeply flawed as it was. But, I grew up with Roy Rogers, The Lone Ranger and the Cisco Kid, among many others.



But, I'm also a sucker for sci-fi, mystery and action/adventure. Westworld is right in my wheelhouse.


----------



## Mikeguy

RGM1138 said:


> I loved the original, deeply flawed as it was. But, I grew up with Roy Rogers, The Lone Ranger and the Cisco Kid, among many others.
> 
> 
> 
> But, I'm also a sucker for sci-fi, mystery and action/adventure. Westworld is right in my wheelhouse.


Yeah, when other kids were out playing cowboy, I was inside reading Isaac Asimov's "I, Robot."


----------



## jlb

Mikeguy said:


> Could you elaborate, for us more casual watchers?


The new man in charge






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## philw1776

sushikitten said:


> I remember buying all of the Blu-ray discs so that when it was over I could re-watch from the beginning. After the last couple episodes and the finale I sold all the DVDs sight unseen.


Sadly, I did the same thing buying the series just before the final season for re-watch. Didn't sell but never watched them. The two moronic brothers "explanation" killed Lost it for me.
Gotta say I love Titus Welliver as Bosch though. No harm, no foul.


----------



## mrizzo80

Wow! Multiple timelines even on "Shoot Day 1".


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/aztxay


----------



## GoPackGo

What is confirming multiple timelines here?


----------



## DevdogAZ

GoPackGo said:


> What is confirming multiple timelines here?


Yeah, I wondered the same thing. Didn't see anything on that sheet to indicate that.


----------



## mrizzo80

GoPackGo said:


> What is confirming multiple timelines here?





DevdogAZ said:


> Yeah, I wondered the same thing. Didn't see anything on that sheet to indicate that.


They have "Shoot Day 1" listed as taking place on 3/11/2002 and 3/11/2004.


----------



## DevdogAZ

mrizzo80 said:


> They have "Shoot Day 1" listed as taking place on 3/11/2002 and 3/11/2004.


----------



## wprager

Flashbacks was their thing from day one. If the scenes for those dates appeared in the same episode chances are they would have been filled in the same timeframe. So same day isn't that unusual.


----------



## wprager

Or am I missing something else?


----------



## wprager

By the way, I recently found out that Lost is on Prime, and I've started a re-watch. Only a few episodes in (watched Walkabout last night). Still holds up after all these years. The writing, the music -- perfection.


----------



## DevdogAZ

wprager said:


> Or am I missing something else?


It was a joke based on a typo.


----------



## gweempose

wprager said:


> By the way, I recently found out that Lost is on Prime, and I've started a re-watch. Only a few episodes in (watched Walkabout last night). Still holds up after all these years. The writing, the music -- perfection.


The music is phenomenal. When I re-watched the show a few years ago with my son, this is the thing that really stood out for me. I honestly don't think the show would have been nearly as good without Michael Giacchino's brilliant score. It gave the show such a unique and palpable feel.


----------



## astrohip

Coming at the same time as the finales of two of the most iconic shows of this decade (Game of Thrones & Big Bang Theory), let's celebrate the first big finale of this decade, LOST. Nine years ago today, May 23 2010. While it certainly wasn't the first finale to become a cultural event (Sopranos, MASH, Breaking Bad, Newhart, Seinfeld, etc), it was the first of the widespread Internet era, what I guess has now morphed to "social media".

Controversial endings seem to be the norm for these biggest of the big TV series (Sopranos, Lost, GoT, Seinfeld). It's much harder to stick the landing (BBT, BB). And while a great ending can move a show into the Pantheon of TV history (BB), not even a provocative one takes away the years of enjoyment it brought us. Online discussions, water cooler talk, cultural coverage (TV, newspapers, magazines, etc). It seems fewer and fewer shows are able to jump the hurdle and become a "Lost".

Happy Anniversary LOST!

PS: I think we should be careful and not let any conversation drift too far into talk of other shows. Spoilers, plus thread drift. Thanks.


----------



## Steveknj

astrohip said:


> Coming at the same time as the finales of two of the most iconic shows of this decade (Game of Thrones & Big Bang Theory), let's celebrate the first big finale of this decade, LOST. Nine years ago today, May 23 2010. While it certainly wasn't the first finale to become a cultural event (Sopranos, MASH, Breaking Bad, Newhart, Seinfeld, etc), it was the first of the widespread Internet era, what I guess has now morphed to "social media".
> 
> Controversial endings seem to be the norm for these biggest of the big TV series (Sopranos, Lost, GoT, Seinfeld). It's much harder to stick the landing (BBT, BB). And while a great ending can move a show into the Pantheon of TV history (BB), not even a provocative one takes away the years of enjoyment it brought us. Online discussions, water cooler talk, cultural coverage (TV, newspapers, magazines, etc). It seems fewer and fewer shows are able to jump the hurdle and become a "Lost".
> 
> Happy Anniversary LOST!
> 
> PS: I think we should be careful and not let any conversation drift too far into talk of other shows. Spoilers, plus thread drift. Thanks.


Just one nitpick, BB finale was after Lost ended (2013). Thinking of the finale and the last season of Lost still gets me PO-ed. Some of the more controversial ones that I initially didn't like I've grown to appreciate over time (Seinfeld and The Sopranos are two that come to mind). Lost is one that I invested a lot of time in and the last season to me just made no sense. I've talked about it probably ten times in this thread. The ride was great, but the destination sucked. It's if you were driving cross country to go to the Grand Canyon and when you got there it had been filled in and shopping mall had been built on top of it.


----------



## astrohip

Steveknj said:


> Just one nitpick, BB finale was after Lost ended (2013).


That wasn't my point in that sentence. I was listing finales that became "big tent events". But I can see how it's confusing. I'll edit it out.


----------



## cmontyburns

Probably no point in debating the merits of the finale again. I haven't seen it since it aired, but I remember thinking it worked, at least on a slightly-reduced expectations basis given the last season-plus of the show. I get that some people didn't like it -- creative arts almost by definition won't appeal to everyone -- but the vitriol then and now really confounds me. Nothing that happened (or didn't) in the finale undoes the "investment" people made in watching the show and the very real pleasure those people (including me) got out of the journey. I certainly didn't agree with all the creative choices the show made as it moved into and through its end game, but I loved the audacity of the whole enterprise and am grateful they attempted it.


----------



## DancnDude

I think I was more disappointed that they knew how many episodes they had, and still left out most of the answers to the supernatural questions they posed earlier in the series. Overall I loved the show. Just wished we got more explained. I wasn't really upset by the ending. Actually I still hope they'd consider a spinoff continuing the series with Hurley. He isn't in anything right now is he?


----------



## Peter000

DancnDude said:


> Actually I still hope they'd consider a spinoff continuing the series with Hurley. He isn't in anything right now is he?


Hawaii 5-0.


----------



## DancnDude

Peter000 said:


> Hawaii 5-0.


Ah, I don't watch that one. I knew he was in that Alcatraz series that didn't last long. Also Michael Emerson would need to be available as well...


----------



## Steveknj

DancnDude said:


> I think I was more disappointed that they knew how many episodes they had, and still left out most of the answers to the supernatural questions they posed earlier in the series. Overall I loved the show. Just wished we got more explained. I wasn't really upset by the ending. Actually I still hope they'd consider a spinoff continuing the series with Hurley. He isn't in anything right now is he?


I loved the series until the last season. I don't think the finale was particularly bad in context, but it's that context that annoys me.


----------



## smak

People guessed wrongly that the island was purgatory the whole time, but then were confused when at the end of the show they were in purgatory (or wherever).

The creators said that after the hydrogen bomb at the end of season 5, that only season 6 they were in purgatory, but it was too confusing. And still people thought the entire show was in purgatory, and people really don't like a whole show to have not really happened, or they weren't really alive...

If this was something they had decided from the beginning, they should have changed it. And if this is something they decided at the end, it was a mistake.

I think Lost was one of those shows that did get better when they had a fixed ending, and knew how many episodes they had left well in advance, but they kinda messed up the ending.

-smak-


----------



## Steveknj

smak said:


> People guessed wrongly that the island was purgatory the whole time, but then were confused when at the end of the show they were in purgatory (or wherever).
> 
> The creators said that after the hydrogen bomb at the end of season 5, that only season 6 they were in purgatory, but it was too confusing. And still people thought the entire show was in purgatory, and people really don't like a whole show to have not really happened, or they weren't really alive...
> 
> If this was something they had decided from the beginning, they should have changed it. And if this is something they decided at the end, it was a mistake.
> 
> I think Lost was one of those shows that did get better when they had a fixed ending, and knew how many episodes they had left well in advance, but they kinda messed up the ending.
> 
> -smak-


That wasn't MY issue. My issue was that were on the island doing whatever they were doing, great story, and then right before the last season, we discover that Jacob and the Man in Black essentially were the whole thing and whatever else we were watching for ALL those seasons didn't matter. it felt like it was all a waste of time.


----------



## Peter000

Finale SUCKED.


----------



## mrizzo80

smak said:


> People guessed wrongly that the island was purgatory the whole time, but then were confused when at the end of the show they were in purgatory (or wherever).
> 
> The creators said that after the hydrogen bomb at the end of season 5, that only season 6 they were in purgatory, but it was too confusing. And still people thought the entire show was in purgatory, and people really don't like a whole show to have not really happened, or they weren't really alive...
> 
> If this was something they had decided from the beginning, they should have changed it. And if this is something they decided at the end, it was a mistake.
> 
> I think Lost was one of those shows that did get better when they had a fixed ending, and knew how many episodes they had left well in advance, but they kinda messed up the ending.
> 
> -smak-


I don't recall specifics, but ABC contributed to this on the night of the series finale. They aired some footage (from the pilot, I think) right after the finale that showed the wreckage on an otherwise empty beach (no people), and people took that to mean "they were dead all along."


----------



## jlb

That we are all still talking about it says something, right?

I totally enjoyed the finale.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

jlb said:


> That we are all still talking about it says something, right?
> 
> I totally enjoyed the finale.


But that finalé totally cheated! How could you possibly enjoy that?

Oh, wait, Patriots fan. never mind.


----------



## jlb

I should also say I am amidst a rewatch right now and in conjunction with that, listening to two podcasts that are essentially rewatch podcasts. First one is "The Hatch". And the other is The Lost Boys. Lost boys is interesting. One person has watched a zillion times and one is watching for the first time. In this podcast, the hosts are Jacob (Stol) the rewatcher and the new watcher is Jack J. Shepard. Cool. Anyways, I am finding them both fun to listen to in a rewatch scenario. 

I do miss, though, Jorge Garcia's Geronimo Jack's Beard podcast.


----------



## jlb

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But that finalé totally cheated! How could you possibly enjoy that?
> 
> Oh, wait, Patriots fan. never mind.


What can I do.


----------



## astrohip

jlb said:


> That we are all still talking about it says something, right?


Only that there's some idiot who keeps bumping this thread every year.


----------



## jlb

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But that finalé totally cheated! How could you possibly enjoy that?
> 
> Oh, wait, Patriots fan. never mind.


I wish I had remembered you were in Minneapolis. I was there for work a couple of months ago staying downtown and we could have had a TCF meetup!


----------



## jlb

astrohip said:


> Only that there's some idiot who keeps bumping this thread every year.


Who could that be?!?


----------



## jlb

For the sake of argument and fun.....I would be interested in hearing people respond to:

1) do you consider yourself a person more of science or faith?
2) did you enjoy the finale?

I feel like you would see a correlation there.... F/Y or S/N


----------



## Steveknj

jlb said:


> For the sake of argument and fun.....I would be interested in hearing people respond to:
> 
> 1) do you consider yourself a person more of science or faith?
> 2) did you enjoy the finale?
> 
> I feel like you would see a correlation there.... F/Y or S/N


Science
No

But I will preface the second by saying, in the context of the final season, I thought the finale was fine. It stuck with the theme of that season. If you are taking it out THAT context and into the whole story, there's every season but the last that told one story and then there's the last season that told a completely different one. In that context, I hated the finale, and the whole last season. And to confuse things....if you took the last season, as a series on it's on, it wasn't bad. It just made the previous seasons meaningless.


----------



## jlb

Steveknj said:


> Science
> No
> 
> But I will preface the second by saying, in the context of the final season, I thought the finale was fine. It stuck with the theme of that season. If you are taking it out THAT context and into the whole story, there's every season but the last that told one story and then there's the last season that told a completely different one. In that context, I hated the finale, and the whole last season. And to confuse things....if you took the last season, as a series on it's on, it wasn't bad. It just made the previous seasons meaningless.


That is more detail than I expected. LOL!

I am definitely in the Faith/Yes camp. But I look at it this way. For several seasons, I was caught up in over analyzing things and doing things like putting "Ethan Rom" and "Hoffs Drawlar" into an anagram server. Once I let that go and just let each episode, and the story telling vehicle wash over me, I enjoyed things even more. In THAT particular type of context, it made it easier for me to enjoy the finale. For me the entire package, the general story, the actors, the music (OMG Michael G is amazing), the sadness of certain arcs, Vincent/Jack in S1E1 and Vincent/Jack in the finale, etc.....it all together made it the best show ever for me. Yes, I can nitpick the finale in ways too, but it doesn't change my overall love for the show.


----------



## jlb

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But that finalé totally cheated! How could you possibly enjoy that?
> 
> Oh, wait, Patriots fan. never mind.


You did it. You got me to change my avatar!


----------



## Steveknj

jlb said:


> That is more detail than I expected. LOL!
> 
> I am definitely in the Faith/Yes camp. But I look at it this way. For several seasons, I was caught up in over analyzing things and doing things like putting "Ethan Rom" and "Hoffs Drawlar" into an anagram server. Once I let that go and just let each episode, and the story telling vehicle wash over me, I enjoyed things even more. In THAT particular type of context, it made it easier for me to enjoy the finale. For me the entire package, the general story, the actors, the music (OMG Michael G is amazing), the sadness of certain arcs, Vincent/Jack in S1E1 and Vincent/Jack in the finale, etc.....it all together made it the best show ever for me. Yes, I can nitpick the finale in ways too, but it doesn't change my overall love for the show.


I tried. This was among my all time favorite shows until they changed the whole story on my during the last season. It probably still ranks up there for me (kind of like the last season of Seinfeld was mostly weak, but still among my all time favs on the whole), but that change in arc just killed the ride for me.


----------



## Steveknj

jlb said:


> You did it. You got me to change my avatar!


At least you didn't change it to Red Sox <ducks>


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## Mikeguy

jlb said:


> That we are all still talking about it says something, right?
> 
> I totally enjoyed the finale.


I did as well, but I never had been a "Lost" fanatic and even--gasp--had missed some episodes, esp. as the show seemed to get less-believable even for "Lost." I wonder if that's a reason why I found the ending logical and even satisfying/enjoyable.


jlb said:


> For the sake of argument and fun.....I would be interested in hearing people respond to:
> 
> 1) do you consider yourself a person more of science or faith?
> 2) did you enjoy the finale?
> 
> I feel like you would see a correlation there.... F/Y or S/N


Sorry to possibly blow your theory: S/Y. But then, I often think that science and faith are reconcilable--possibly comes from years of "Star Trek" episodes where Captain X and his/her crew are seen as gods, or terraform a planet. And can't faith simply be science we don't understand, yet (or think we do--explain to me why gravity works)?


----------



## wprager

S/Y here, too. 

While I want a fan of the Two Brothers season, I don't see any way how the finale of the season (or two) before invalidated the first 4 or 5. It was all about the journey for these characters, even if there were a couple "supreme beings" trying to pull the strings (they were far from supreme and you could argue only MIB tried to pull the strings). Their journey was still real. And very, very enjoyable.


----------



## Mikeguy

I realize that I need to re-watch the series. But I just don't know that I have the patience for_ so many episodes_ . . . .


----------



## astrohip

Science
Yes, happy.


----------



## realityboy

S/Y as well, but I did have a falling out with the show around season 2 or so when I realized that they weren’t going to adequately answer (m)any of the questions that were raised. I hate watched for about a season or so, but then began to really enjoy it for what it was without expecting any deeper meaning or plan.


----------



## smbaker

jlb said:


> 1) do you consider yourself a person more of science or faith?
> 2) did you enjoy the finale?
> 
> I feel like you would see a correlation there.... F/Y or S/N


I'll answer that I'm somewhat in the middle on the first one, and felt somewhat meh on the second one.

For me LOST was about trying to understand what was going on with the mysteries of the Island. I recall having an epic fight with someone on the Usenet over parsing the producer's words, "There is no time travel". I turned out to be right on that one.  I wanted to know more about all of the various stations on the Island and how they worked. I was always looking for ways to make the Island more SciFi/fantasy, whereas I know other viewers looking to make it less SciFi/fantasy. I spent a lot of time, for example, trying to understand what kind of barrier would prevent people from leaving the Island. Other viewers felt there was no barrier.

My biggest gripe is that I wanted better explanations about the the mysteries of the Island, and in the end I felt the producers pretty much punted on that. The producers said all along that it was more about the _characters_ than the _story_ but dammit man you still gotta have a cohesive story.

I wanted more Dharma, less Jacob.


----------



## wprager

Mikeguy said:


> I realize that I need to re-watch the series. But I just don't know that I have the patience for_ so many episodes_ . . . .


Skip the Niki/Paolo ones, the Mother and Richard back stories (never really grabbed me) and probably most of the Jacob/MIB ones (why did they never give him a name?)


----------



## gweempose

Science / Yes

I loved the show from start to finish and had no problem with the finale whatsoever, but this was before I would go on forums like this to dissect every aspect of a show. I was a member of TCF back then, but I mostly limited my postings to the technical threads. I have a feeling I wouldn't have enjoyed Lost quite as much if I had been reading all these threads during the show's original run. While it is super fun talking to others and trying to figure out the mysteries of a complex show like this, I honestly think it somewhat diminishes the overall impact the show has.


----------



## Steveknj

gweempose said:


> Science / Yes
> 
> I loved the show from start to finish and had no problem with the finale whatsoever, but this was before I would go on forums like this to dissect every aspect of a show. I was a member of TCF back then, but I mostly limited my postings to the technical threads. I have a feeling I wouldn't have enjoyed Lost quite as much if I had been reading all these threads during the show's original run. While it is super fun talking to others and trying to figure out the mysteries of a complex show like this, I honestly think it somewhat diminishes the overall impact the show has.


I think discussing it here often enhanced my enjoyment of the show. There were lots of things I didn't notice or think about that was brought up here. In fact, for me anyway, this was the first show that I thought became an internet discussion sensation (other than MAYBE The Sopranos).


----------



## DevdogAZ

Steveknj said:


> I think discussing it here often enhanced my enjoyment of the show. There were lots of things I didn't notice or think about that was brought up here. In fact, for me anyway, this was the first show that I thought became an internet discussion sensation (other than MAYBE The Sopranos).


Totally agree. I loved LOST, but my love of the show was greatly enhanced by participating in the threads here at TCF. I wasn't involved in all the various other online discussions of the show, but I felt like the members of TCF had tentacles out into all those various groups, so that if any interesting theory or revelation was brought up, it always made its way here to TCF. That allowed us all to discuss the show and all the various aspects and fan theories without needing to wade into the dreck of most online forums populated by uneducated idiots.

As for the other question, I don't think the science/faith question is really a binary choice. I see no reason someone can't be a person of faith and also believe in science. I remember liking the finale, but being pissed that it meant many aspects of the final season (such as The Temple) were completely pointless. It made me realize that the producers probably had the final church/ascension scene in mind all along, but had no plan how to get there, which is why the last couple seasons seemed to meander and never really had any cohesive plot progression.


----------



## gweempose

Steveknj said:


> I think discussing it here often enhanced my enjoyment of the show. There were lots of things I didn't notice or think about that was brought up here.





DevdogAZ said:


> Totally agree. I loved LOST, but my love of the show was greatly enhanced by participating in the threads here at TCF. I wasn't involved in all the various other online discussions of the show, but I felt like the members of TCF had tentacles out into all those various groups, so that if any interesting theory or revelation was brought up, it always made its way here to TCF.


Fair enough, and in the case of Lost, I may very well have enjoyed it more if I was involved in the discussions here. It's hard to say. What I do know is that I kind of wish I hadn't followed the Westworld threads so closely. Like Lost, Westworld is a complex show that spawned all sorts of speculation and theories from its fans. Some of that speculation turned out to be correct, and it kind of spoiled certain elements of the plot for me.


----------



## Steveknj

gweempose said:


> Fair enough, and in the case of Lost, I may very well have enjoyed it more if I was involved in the discussions here. It's hard to say. What I do know is that I kind of wish I hadn't followed the Westworld threads so closely. Like Lost, Westworld is a complex show that spawned all sorts of speculation and theories from its fans. Some of that speculation turned out to be correct, and it kind of spoiled certain elements of the plot for me.


I would agree about Westworld. I can't read more than a page or two of the stuff here before I just lose interest.


----------



## jlb

gweempose said:


> Science / Yes
> 
> I loved the show from start to finish and had no problem with the finale whatsoever, but this was before I would go on forums like this to dissect every aspect of a show. I was a member of TCF back then, but I mostly limited my postings to the technical threads. I have a feeling I wouldn't have enjoyed Lost quite as much if I had been reading all these threads during the show's original run. While it is super fun talking to others and trying to figure out the mysteries of a complex show like this, I honestly think it somewhat diminishes the overall impact the show has.


That's kind of what I'm trying to get at too. One I stopped doing just that and let each ep just wash over me, I enjoyed things even more!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## astrohip

Today marks the tenth anniversary of the finale of Lost. Coming just days after the one year anniversary of Game of Thrones, both shows that left an indelible mark on TV history, and both with oft-debated endings. Love it, like it, hate it, or some combination of all, there is no denying Lost was a hell of a ride.


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## jkeegan

WOW. A whole decade. Good times. I miss these threads.


----------



## KDeFlane

fyi 
What's the Legacy of the Lost Finale?


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## MacThor

I think I'll watch it tonight. All 6 seasons of Lost are now available for free on iMDBtv.


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## astrohip

MacThor said:


> I think I'll watch it tonight. All 6 seasons of Lost are now available for free on iMDBtv.


I still have it on my TiVo.


----------



## stellie93

I just re-watched the first season last week. Best season of TV ever. :up:
On to season 2....


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## Wil

astrohip said:


> Today marks the tenth anniversary of the finale of Lost


Fake news. I'm not sure what your agenda is, but it was three/four years ago. Maybe five, max.


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## Peter000

Wil said:


> Fake news. I'm not sure what your agenda is, but it was three/four years ago. Maybe five, max.


Google it dude.


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## jkeegan

Peter000 said:


> Google it dude.


Wow forums are old.. I want to use giffy(?) to post the animated picture of Superman flying looking around like crazy, with the word "joke" hovering always behind his head out-of-site.


----------



## DevdogAZ

I had never heard of this site, but this article showed up in my Apple News feed and I agree with it wholeheartedly:

On its 10th anniversary, it's time to give Lost's finale the praise it deserves


----------



## madscientist

I don't think I can bring myself to watch ads, even to rewatch Lost.


----------



## KDeFlane

KDeFlane said:


> fyi
> What's the Legacy of the Lost Finale?


here, have another 
The Lost Series Finale, 10 Years Later: The Highs, the Lows, and the Closing Credits That Caused a Commotion


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## wprager

We have to go back (and do another re-watch).


----------



## wprager

Well we just finished The Capture last night so Lost re-watch begins tonight!

Is it weird that half of our viewing the last few months included BSG and That 70s Show, and now we're about to "go back" again?


----------



## Steveknj

Still hate the last season, but, the ride to get there, was incredible. The first series that I seriously discussed on here. Ten years, wow!


----------



## wprager

Watched episodes 3 & 4 last night. Most of you know 4 is Walkabout. Probably the 5th time watching for me and I noticed something for the first time. When Locke first realizes his paralysis is gone and reaches for his shoe, you can clearly see the sole of the shoe is completely unworn. Cool.


----------



## Steveknj

DevdogAZ said:


> I had never heard of this site, but this article showed up in my Apple News feed and I agree with it wholeheartedly:
> 
> On its 10th anniversary, it's time to give Lost's finale the praise it deserves


I don't agree with the person's take on the finale or last season, but not going to rehash that again. Fansided is mostly a sports oriented site. I read stuff from there occasionally as it comes up on my Google feed. It's mostly annoying in that they tend to do a lot of slideshows.


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## stellie93

This was when I first came here too. My friend at work always caught so much more stuff on Lost than I did. I asked him how many times he watched each episode, and he finally admitted where it came from and gave me this address.


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## DevdogAZ

Steveknj said:


> I don't agree with the person's take on the finale or last season, but not going to rehash that again. Fansided is mostly a sports oriented site. I read stuff from there occasionally as it comes up on my Google feed. It's mostly annoying in that they tend to do a lot of slideshows.


I wasn't talking about Fansided. I was talking about culturess.com, which appears to be a sub-site of Fansided. But since I originally saw the article on my Apple News feed, it only showed culturess.com and not the Fansided banner on top, so that's why I said I'd never heard of it.


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## MacThor

I watched "The End" over the weekend and really enjoyed it. I liked the "Flash-Sideways" world more than I remembered
Anyway, it made me nostalgic and I think I'm going to watch it with my daughter - she's into science fiction.

I suspect LOST might be even better on a re-watch, especially binging rather than having to wait a week between episodes.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

The main advantage of the week between episodes was the opportunity for discussions here.

Which were often epic!


----------



## astrohip

Epic indeed! Just the post counts were astounding...


----------



## MacThor

Oh man, I remember those threads well. So much lost productivity. (No pun intended)

I just think now that we know how it ended, we can jam through 3 episodes at a clip and look for easter eggs that pay off down the road. My daughter might want some time to digest between eps.
We'll see. I could be totally off base, and the show loses its luster without time to ponder the mysteries.


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## wprager

No, it really doesn't. The writing, music, cinematography, acting, everything. Top notch.


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## Steveknj

MacThor said:


> Oh man, I remember those threads well. So much lost productivity. (No pun intended)
> 
> I just think now that we know how it ended, we can jam through 3 episodes at a clip and look for easter eggs that pay off down the road. My daughter might want some time to digest between eps.
> We'll see. I could be totally off base, and the show loses its luster without time to ponder the mysteries.


I started a rewatch some years back to look for exactly that, clues that would lead to the ending....got through 2 seasons plus, and really never found anything. I still remember how much the last season p**sed me off and has left a bad taste in mouth, but every season before that was top notch.


----------



## MacThor

Steveknj said:


> I started a rewatch some years back to look for exactly that, clues that would lead to the ending....got through 2 seasons plus, and really never found anything. I still remember how much the last season p**sed me off and has left a bad taste in mouth, but every season before that was top notch.


I didn't care much for S6 either (though I didn't hate it like you).
I'm doing a bad job at binging in order - last night the S2 premiere was on and I watched it. (I don't understand this Amazon "Live TV" but that's another topic).
Desmond meets Jack in the flashbacks, running the stairs at the stadium. 
These are the same stadium steps where Penny finds Desmond in a later episode (but an earlier moment in time).
And also the same stadium steps where Desmond finds Penny in S6 in the afterlife - and begins his mission to awaken the other main characters.

"See you in another life, brother" - indeed.


----------



## wprager

Oh, boy:
Lost Reboot Is Reportedly Being Discussed

I suspect this isn't really new, not news - little speculation. But in light of the recent finale of Dark may I present (anala-spoilers for Dark below):

- the "real world" in the final season was the prime world
- the "flash sideways" was the alt world
- the reboot will have Jack and Kate traveling back to prevent Ellie from shooting her and Widmore's son, Daniel Faraday
- this results in the prime and alt worlds ceasing to exist, leaving us with the origin world and an ending everyone can stomach


----------



## Steveknj

wprager said:


> Oh, boy:
> Lost Reboot Is Reportedly Being Discussed
> 
> I suspect this isn't really new, not news - little speculation. But in light of the recent finale of Dark may I present (anala-spoilers for Dark below):
> 
> - the "real world" in the final season was the prime world
> - the "flash sideways" was the alt world
> - the reboot will have Jack and Kate traveling back to prevent Ellie from shooting her and Widmore's son, Daniel Faraday
> - this results in the prime and alt worlds ceasing to exist, leaving us with the origin world and an ending everyone can stomach


I'd bet this is nothing more than click bait. Recently I've seen links to reboots of:
The Big Bang Theory
Another season of Game of Thrones (not the pre-quel that's in the works)
Frasier

And others. I don't buy it.


----------



## wprager

Neither do I. I didn't read the article, just assumed it was old rumors. But it gave me an idea


----------



## MickeS

RegBarc said:


> Speaking of epic lulz, somone in the massive Lost thread over at Something Awful just got banned for 100,000 hours for posting a spoiler.
> 
> Isn't that like 11 and 1/2 years?


So just another year left before they can post again... How time flies.


----------



## MickeS

Turtleboy said:


> This thread sucks.
> 
> There's a reason that there is a rule against starting a thread before the show ends. It's to prevent the thread from being a "chat" "hey, look at that" which is meaningless when read later.


When it's ten year later, it's kind of fun actually.


----------



## DancnDude

I still would enjoy a continuation with Hurley that will fill in more of the answers to what the island is and how it works.


----------



## philw1776

DancnDude said:


> I still would enjoy a continuation with Hurley that will fill in more of the answers to what the island is and how it works.


Cool. But the fundamental problem remains that the series writers had no clue about what the island is and how it works.
Nor did they care a whit.
Liked half of the last season. The part where everyone was in the alterlife afterlife & re-united.
The Island stuff with the 2 doofuses was utter bilge. So completely tacky that it ruined what preceded. Requires a complete Epic Fail to destroy an entertaining and captivating multi-season series.
And yes I love Titus Welliver as an actor. The script NOT.


----------



## astrohip

Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse Revisit 'Lost,' 10 Years Later | Hollywood Reporter
_
The showrunners behind the time-hopping ABC drama reunited for a special virtual New York Comic Con Metaverse panel, answering fan questions about unanswered mysteries, and looking toward the inevitable reboot - and why they won't have any role in it._

More at the link...


----------



## astrohip

Twelve years ago today... we were all holding our breath, waiting to see how it ended.

Love it or hate it, it was one hell of a ride. There are so few shows today where millions are anxiously awaiting the finale.


----------



## gchance

astrohip said:


> Twelve years ago today... we were all holding our breath, waiting to see how it ended.
> 
> Love it or hate it, it was one hell of a ride. There are so few shows today where millions are anxiously awaiting the finale.


I know quite a few people going nuts over the This Is Us finale, which is weird for me just because I don't watch it. Better Call Saul is highly anticipated.

What's interesting to me is that Lost was so big culturally but most people have just forgotten that it even existed. Not on TCF of course, but in general.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I think one big problem for Lost is that it didn't go out on top. That is, the last year or so didn't live up to the promise of the glory days.

I have a feeling Game of Thrones will suffer a similar fate...a great show that withered away instead of going out with a bang.


----------



## astrohip

gchance said:


> I know quite a few people going nuts over the This Is Us finale, which is weird for me just because I don't watch it. Better Call Saul is highly anticipated.


I know This Is Us has its big finale this week, and it's getting a lot of buzz. I watched the first three seasons, until it was clear it was just a soap opera, and not the innovative show it started as.

Better Call Saul, for those who watch, is must-see TV.


----------



## Howie

astrohip said:


> Twelve years ago today... we were all holding our breath, waiting to see how it ended.
> 
> Love it or hate it, it was one hell of a ride. There are so few shows today where millions are anxiously awaiting the finale.


I recently starting rewatching this for the first time. I'm now in the middle of Season 2 and I find myself getting annoyed at the flashbacks that happen every episode. I may not make it through to the end.


----------



## Turtleboy

This dude did a six hour deep dive into the show. I’m just starting it


----------

