# Disappointed but not surprised



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Looking at the experiences in the Virgin forum, it seems that all the extra stuff that has been shoehorned in to the modern TiVo has destroyed its simplicity and clarity; and for me that was its #1 benefit.

When Microsoft makes a product which is cheaper, easier to use with a cleaner clearer interface, you know you've messed up.

The new VM machine is probably best in class for an operator provided PVR, but I'm actually pleased I don't live in a Virgin area as I don't have to feel guilty about not getting one.


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

The original S1 interface was elegant, consistent and difficult to fault. 

The new VM TiVo less so - but don't be misled by the number of minor (IMO) UI complaints on the Virgin forum - everyone will no doubt say its better than the old S1 tivo on balance.

Microsoft media center is good, but not as good as the VM TiVo, and I use both!


----------



## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Can the first person to get VM TiVo please do a YouTube video and show us the interface?


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Have you actually searched youtube before typing that ? There are plenty on already ...

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=virgin+media+tivo&aq=f


----------



## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

Dear god woman, can you not use google yourself.

The 'first' person?? Plenty of people have them now.

Start here:
http://vmhd.blogspot.com/


----------



## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> I'm actually pleased I don't live in a Virgin area as I don't have to feel guilty about not getting one.


I endorse mikerr's comments, you kid yourself if you want  but I'd take my (slightly slow and bound to improve with updates) HD (dual and soon to be treble tuner) new TiVo over my old S1 any day ! 

Admittedly all of that can be done with MCE so you're not totally losing out 

VM TiVo is better than some suggest, and this is v0.1 pre-Service Pack remember !


----------



## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

^ What he said.

The VM Installer man today was very keen to point out that the software wasn't quite finished and that I should expect various issues but that I should also expect a lot of them to be resolved in the coming weeks/months.

I'm looking forward to watching it improve.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Have you actually searched... before typing that ?


You're kidding, right? Jo hasn't researched _a thing_ to do with Tivo; as her previous postings have proved


----------



## sculptor (Jan 7, 2003)

Watching some of the youtube vids of the new VM tivo,

The planner is a grid format, similar to Sky+

I much prefer the two column layout of the tivo series 1.

Did that layout change to the grid format in previous versions of tivo (series 2 or 3)?


----------



## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

That's a fair comment above - I did much prefer the old layout, but ho hum.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I suspect most of the people who are pleased are pleased because of the HD, dual tuners, improved SD pictures etc and are overlooking the significantly diminished TiVo-ness


----------



## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

I don't think it's significantly diminished. I think it's mostly still there. I found the presence of the familiar beeps and boings hugely comforting alone.


----------



## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

I can't say I had looked for any videos of the the VM Tivo but now I have seen a couple I also prefer the less cluttered old UI on our S1 Tivo's.

Automan.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Here's an example of the kind of cool stuff I expect from TiVo but actually get from 7MC. It's a grab from showing a TV series view, which not only shows the episodes you've got it shows which ones are missing and whether you've watched them:










Open architecture, as the S1 had (accidentally) gets you cool things. Virgin will get you "ads" on every screen.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

A lot of that info (like an episode list) is available on the Tivo, just not in the same place. Also, I haven't seen a single "ad" on my Tivo so far


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I say ad, you say "discovery bar". Same difference.

TiVo has a browse by show, then by season, then episode guide including the shows you don't have in your collection yet? Don think so.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> I say ad, you say "discovery bar". Same difference.


Well, an "ad" or 'commercial advertisement' to use it's correct title, is usually trying to sell you something. The Discovery Bar is simplys suggestion of shows you might like. Not quite the same thing.



TCM2007 said:


> TiVo has a browse by show, then by season, then episode guide...


Yes.












> ... including the shows you don't have in your collection yet?


No, not that. But then that's not what it's designed for; which is time-shift, not archiving.



> Don think so.


Not _exactly_ the same, granted, but not too dissimilar. Okay, let the nit-picking and goal-post shifting commence. Or you could just admit you were wrong


----------



## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

As per previous comment, Taxi for Mr Waring


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

That's the video on demand isn't it? Not the same thing. 

Also, put the two screens next to each other and guess which one is from interface gurus TiVo and which from interface horror show Microsoft?

And you can imagine that VM won't use the discovery bar for promoting the stuff THEY want to promote if you like, but surely your not that naive? Dossa, meet Jo...


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> That's the video on demand isn't it? Not the same thing.


No it isn't. That's the ep guide. When you go into an ep that is not available (either on TV or OD) you get an option to create a Wishlist for it. I _have_ a Tivo. I _know_ what it can do! S2 is OD and on "Watch". S5 is on BBC3. That is all at the moment.



> Also, put the two screens next to each other and guess which one is from interface gurus TiVo and which from interface horror show Microsoft?


Maybe but that's not the point. There go the goal-posts 



> And you can imagine that VM won't use the discovery bar for promoting the stuff THEY want to promote if you like, but surely your not that naive? Dossa, meet Jo...


Never said they wouldn't. Doesn't mean I have to _watch_ it. I'd happily turn off the Discovery Bar if it were possible.



alextegg said:


> As per previous comment, Taxi for Mr Waring


No. Still not getting it  He was wrong. What's the problem with my proving it?


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

No goalposts moved Carl, check the first post. The VM device's UI is a compex, messy garish dog's breakfast of a thing which I simply don't recognise as TiVo. Just look at it; it offends the eye. Whoever "designed" it should hang their head in shame. TiVo was a thing of UI beauty, not even a mother could love the VM.

I don't expect or want anyone who's just agreed to pay out £700-odd for one to agree, but if that's what 10 years of development gives you, maybe I should shift to the Luddit camp.

I'll say it again, a MICROSOFT product looks a thing of beauty in comparison FFS!


----------



## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Have you actually searched youtube before typing that ? There are plenty on already ...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=virgin+media+tivo&aq=f


No, I hate YouTube, it wants to force me to get/link to a Google Account. Like, wtf?

What's your point?


----------



## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

cwaring said:


> No. Still not getting it


 

The fact that you are not getting it IS your problem !


----------



## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

Jo.Cassady said:


> No, I hate YouTube, it wants to force me to get/link to a Google Account. Like, wtf?
> 
> What's your point?


The point would be you asked for a youtube video and you hate youtube... bloody hell.


----------



## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> No, I hate YouTube, it wants to force me to get/link to a Google Account. Like, wtf?What's your point?


You can watch Youtube videos (except age restricted) without a Google account - no-one is forcing you.

Why ask for an upload to place be placed on Youtube if you feel so strongly about Youtube 

[note to self: must stop feeding...]


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

TCM2007 said:


> I don't expect or want anyone who's just agreed to pay out £700-odd for one to agree


Sigh. It cost £149 + £3/mo
My monthly bill has actually gone down since taking TiVo though.


----------



## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

mikerr said:


> Sigh. It cost £149 + £3/mo
> My monthly bill has actually gone down since taking TiVo though.


Ditto.

Although, I did buy a nice new TV at the same time. I'm sure that will count in delusional world of some.


----------



## jonphil (Aug 7, 2002)

This thread just seems to have got out of hand.

After 2 weeks of use I'm really starting to love the new interface, I think the issue is it has a little bit more of a learning curve.

Lets not forget most people have been using the S1 interface for a few years now so it will take some getting used to, I believe if you hate the HD interface that much you can turn it off somehow and return Tivo back to all the standard SD menus.

I've not looked as mentioned I'm starting to enjoy the interface.

*
The new interface is going to be like Marmite you will either love it or hate it!!* Personally I love it, has a few more menu clicks than maybe it needs but other than that.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> No goalposts moved Carl, check the first post.


Okay. Here it is.



TCM2007 said:


> TiVo has a browse by show, then by season, then episode guide...? Don think so.


Okay, I snipped the bit about the archiving, but there was no mention in your original post that I responded to about the look and feel of the unit; just your lack of belief that it had such functionality. The rest, whether true or not, is irrelevant.



jonphil said:


> I believe if you hate the HD interface that much you can turn it off somehow and return Tivo back to all the standard SD menus.


No you can't.


----------



## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

Taxi!


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Sigh. It cost £149 + £3/mo
> My monthly bill has actually gone down since taking TiVo though.


If you're not a Virgin customer, then to get one involves committing to pay them £659. You get other things for that money too, but at the end of the day if you want a TiVo that's what you have to spend.

If you ARE a Virgin customer then your marginal cost will be much lower of course.


----------



## Nimbus (May 29, 2004)

mikerr said:


> Sigh. It cost £149 + £3/mo
> My monthly bill has actually gone down since taking TiVo though.


Ohh, can you show me where I can sign up for it for just £149 + £3/month ?

I'm afraid for those of us who arent virgin customers, who dont want the tv extra channels, and who dont or cant change their ISP or telephone supplier, its somewhat more than £3/month.....

So to a genuine new user it is somewhere nearer £700/year


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Dear God please don't go around the bloody pricing mill again - there is truth in both arguments but neither is that relevant to the complexity (or not) of the new interface vs. the old.


----------



## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

> Taxi!


  He's never going to get it Alex!


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I raised pricing simply because I know people who have just paid out a load of cash tend to view their purchases in a rosy glow for a while!

I just can't get over what a mess they've made of the lovely TiVo interface. And as the interface plus the hugely better programme search are what set TiVo apart from the many other season pass capable devices on the market now, that's a real shame.

(And they are calling season passes series links. Argh!)


----------



## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

I understand your point Stuart, but you could say you need to buy a PC to get MCE, so the gap isn't that much.

I know you have an Acer as a cheaper option, but the MCE PC I bought cost much more than £659.


----------



## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Here's an example of the kind of cool stuff I expect from TiVo but actually get from 7MC. It's a grab from showing a TV series view, which not only shows the episodes you've got it shows which ones are missing and whether you've watched them:


Beautiful as that screen is, I can not see where it indicates "which ones are missing and whether you've watched them".


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

If we are being critical though, I do find it odd that the "old menus" are still there and don't match the style.
In fact on the US premieres you can turn off the new HD interface and use the old S1 style exclusively (which is noticeably quicker).

It's like they started on the HD interface, but the designer left halfway though,
so not all the screens are implemented -the interface will flip back to old S1 style when you go to manage season passes etc.

[BTW shouldn't this thread be in the VM forum?]


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

alextegg said:


> Taxi!


Yes, another really useful post there alex; adding a lot to the topic of conversation 



Nimbus said:


> ..who dont want the tv extra channels...


Just wait a while. That requirement will disappear.



Nimbus said:


> .. and who dont or cant change their ISP or telephone supplier..


Both of those are _always_ possible.



Nimbus said:


> ..its somewhat more than £3/month.....


No. It's £3 on top of any other requirement. Just like having Sky TV is a requirement to get "FREE broadband" out of Sky; and that's assuming your local exchange has their equipment in it.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

ericd121 said:


> Beautiful as that screen is, I can not see where it indicates "which ones are missing and whether you've watched them".


Picked a bad shot because it was on their website and easier to use; there are icons against unwatched and absent shows.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

> BTW shouldn't this thread be in the VM forum?


No, because I didn't want to come over as attacking their brand new toy and by implication criticising them. I'm just disappointed that so many of the virtues of the S1 have been lost, and the new box doesn't seem to carry on the spirit of TiVo as I understood it.

A huge missed opportunity.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

alextegg said:


> I understand your point Stuart, but you could say you need to buy a PC to get MCE, so the gap isn't that much.
> 
> I know you have an Acer as a cheaper option, but the MCE PC I bought cost much more than £659.


Wish I'd not mentioned the cost; I was only suggesting why VM TiVo owners might have rose tinted spectacles about their red tinted boxes, not wanting to set Carl off on his usual rant.


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Point taken TCM2007 - I followed your reasoning but so wanted this not to be a complete rerun of the 10's of threads where people argue if it costs £3, £300 or £3000 etc.

New and shiny toys are always going to look good to their owners - especially if they've just locked themselves into a long contract. I remember how joyful I was about my iPhone 3G - now a couple of years later the things that irritated me when it was new make me want to sling it across the room.

The real proof of the pudding will happen in a few months when the newness has worn off and the nonsense of entering PINs all the time (or whatever) really start to grate.

It would be lovely to see - say a technology magazine run a 2 way review between Sky+HD & Virgin Tivo
I guess as subscriptions are involved it would have to be MCE & a freeview+ and freesat+ solution?


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> ...not wanting to set Carl off on his usual rant.


No ranting here. You have your opnions and I have mine. You seem to think - without even having used it (and therefore not even knowing what it can do as evidenced in this thread) - that the new Tivo is "a step backwards" whilst I, knowing what it actually _can_ do, think it's just the opposite.

So be it.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I can watch videos, I can see screenshots, I can read manuals. It's not something I would want to deal with on a day to day basis. I'm sure it's an improvement over the old VM box, but that's setting the bar rather low.

TiVo was ahead of its time 10 years ago, with the best UI bar none. This implementation of it is poor.

I could not live with the discovery bar and it's horror show of vile typography and sponsored content. The point of TiVo is to free me from interference from TV companies, not to put it in my face even more.


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Tivo has moved on from pure text menus (and not before time!)

I do love they way you can visually explore the cast list of any show
with actor thumbnails and jump to every film or show they've been in
just by browsing the menus, like you would do with imdb web site,
except you can record/ view OD / set wishlist right from the menu:






I do this quite a bit - its not just a demo.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes, you can do that in MC7 too, with MyMovies. It's a nice way of setting up wishlists.

In your video, the actors pictures seem horizontally compressed, like they were 16:9 being shown on a 4:3 set full screen?










Is that video typical of the speed of use of the interface? I've described my Atom-based MC7 set up as "a bit sluggish" - I may have to revise that to "lightning fast"!


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

This is what I'm moaning about:










It's not so bad where there's a show logo, but where they've picked a font at random it's positively amateur.


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

TCM2007 said:


> Is that video typical of the speed of use of the interface? I've described my Atom-based MC7 set up as "a bit sluggish" - I may have to revise that to "lightning fast"!


On lots of screens you can click through before the pictures populate - so I did pause for a second or so on each menu as I was going to add a voiceover - didn't get round to it though!


> In your video, the actors pictures seem horizontally compressed, like they were 16:9 being shown on a 4:3 set full screen?


Yeah it does that if I view through the winTV card for youtube uploading. Looks fine over HDMI


----------



## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

alextegg said:


> Taxi!


No, you've lost me now. 

Why not get in your taxi and come back when you have something constructive to add?


----------



## Glen (May 9, 2004)

what would be the point in a non VM person paying £659 for a TiVo. It wouldnt be able to do much without VM would it?


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

^ The point being they couldn't do that  You _have_ to be a VM customer to get the new Tivo. Like you _have_ to be a Sky TV customer to get their 'free' broadband service; and maybe even any of their broadband services. (Don't know for sure; not a Sky customer )



TCM2007 said:


> This is what I'm moaning about:


Yes... and? I just ignore it.


----------



## VirginMediaPhil (Nov 27, 2009)

mikerr said:


> On lots of screens you can click through before the pictures populate - so I did pause for a second or so on each menu as I was going to add a voiceover - didn't get round to it though!
> 
> Yeah it does that if I view through the winTV card for youtube uploading. Looks fine over HDMI


You're then cropping the videos to 16:9. What a mess! Instead, just upload the anamorphic 16:9 (16:9 being squashed into 4:3) video to YouTube, and add the tag "yt:stretch=16:9" (no quotation marks) to the video tags. Job done!


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

^Thanks for the tip


----------



## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Yes, another really useful post there alex; adding a lot to the topic of conversation


Oh, the irony!


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM: "The VM Tivo doesn't have this feature."
Me: "Yes it does. Here it is."
You: "TAXI!"

Whose was the more useful post?


----------



## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

Trying to get a message across, which sadly seems to go straight over your head.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

So still nothing of substance to contribute then, other than what I suspect is basically an insult?


----------



## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

For me the ability to record a broader amount of HD content than w7mc makes up for the interface niggles.
Not being a PC makes it something you can recommend to non-IT people.

It's early days and I hope VM TiVo gets the little annoyances sorted.

It's not as bad or slow as it looks - though speed seems to vary by person to person as well as from screen to screen and according to action in my case. Most of the time it's fine but certain actions take a while.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

cyril said:


> It's early days and I hope VM TiVo gets the little annoyances sorted.


Absolutely.



> It's not as bad or slow as it looks - though speed seems to vary by person to person as well as from screen to screen and according to action in my case. Most of the time it's fine but certain actions take a while.


I concur with this too  I think the menu speed issue must be related to the fact that they're in HD as the standard old SD ones are as fast as they were on my S1.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

It's an HD device, all the screens should be in HD!


----------



## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

cwaring said:


> So still nothing of substance to contribute then, other than what I suspect is basically an insult?


No insult intended, I am just completely fed up with your posting manner, you completely miss the points and nit picking my and others responses.

re: contribution I am not the one who floods the forum with pointless posts with numerous individual quotes from others on one post with no added value.

My taxi references were a friendly attempt to nudge you that you might be pi$$ing others off as well as me, (evidented by several other responses), but that fell on deaf ears as well so I will cease and desist at this point.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> It's an HD device, all the screens should be in HD!


True. Not sure why they aren't as they've had at least year to sort them out; more if it's the same on the US version 


alextegg said:


> No insult intended, I am just completely fed up with your posting manner....


Then put me on 'ignore'.  Most of the *regulars* around here know my posting style and know that I can occasionally interject with a funny line, observation and yes, sometimes nonsense. So what? Doesn't do any harm.


----------



## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

TCM2007 said:


> Here's an example of the kind of cool stuff I expect from TiVo but actually get from 7MC.(


And here's the same sort of quality output from Plex running on a MacMini:










Tivo started to revamp the UI a few years ago with the original USA HD boxes. Unfortunate timing since that was a bit early for HTML5, so I believe a lot of the new UI contains god awful slow flash content :-(
Considering even the latest tivo boxes are not particularly powerful in processing terms, the sooner they drop flash the better!


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Wow! Nice, but so what? Companies do things differently? Like we didn't know that  No need to turn this into a digital willy-waving contest


----------



## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

I think TCM2007's post is a legitimate response to the Tivo UI changing for the worse, my post is merely supporting that claim and backing it up with another widely used alternative system that offers a nice clean, fast UI without advertising!
In fact Plex has just struck a deal with LG to start embedding into their TV's, so we may soon start to see those horrible TV menu's finally clean up their act with some decent user interfaces!

In fact I suspect Tivo either recruited a bunch of new staff to produce their iPad app or they out-sourced it. Whichever they did, they should put those people in charge of revamping the Tivo set-top-box UI across the board, because the existing team seems like they are still stuck in late 90's when they produced the first interface


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Unless I'm much mistaken the purpose of this thread was to talk about the new Tivo interface with the older Tivo interface and other current alternatives.
As many of us are now in the situation of looking for Tivo alternatives then screenshots and discussion of the alternatives are very welcome to me.

I'm afraid that that bar of mismatched and unofficial logs on the VMTivo looks poor in comparison. 

I've been watching YouTube video of Windows7 and the Media Centre interface on XBox and I'm impressed at the speed and design of the UI.


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

In an effort to remove clutter, I now have just 2 devices under the main TV:

VM TiVo  and an AppleTV2 ( jailbroken of course so it runs XBMC most of the time )


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Wow! Nice, but so what? Companies do things differently? Like we didn't know that  No need to turn this into a digital willy-waving contest


The "so what" is that these example show how good an HD PVR interface can and should look in 2011. And make it clear how clunky and ugly the implementation of the VM TiVo is.

TiVo were at the cutting edge in 2000; I expected (and continue to hope) that they would still be now. Little sign of it, sadly.

The underlying functionality is still good, but they've dropped the UI ball.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I will agree that the whole thing should be in HD, and it hopefully will be eventually.

I don't think the other examples given look any better or worse; just different. Just the same info presented in a sligtly different way.

No interface ever will always please everyone.


----------



## kmusgrave (Oct 13, 2000)

cwaring said:


> I don't think the other examples given look any better or worse; just different. .


You are joking? They're an order of magnitude better. Most of the screens on the VM Tivo look ugly on a large HD TV.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Well I was talking about the design not the "HD-ness" of them. Besides, I haven't got a large HD TV so, for the moment, I can't comment on that. Hopefully, by the time I can afford one, all the screens will be in HD.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Then we can thank heavens you don't design UIs for a living!


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

How do you know? just because I don't hate it as much as you doesn't mean I'd design it the same way. I never said it was perfect, did I?  There's far too much wasted space for one thing.

And how do you know you'd be any better? Any design you come up with would be universally liked by everyone? Good job we can't prove it either way, eh? 

It always easy to say "I could do better" when you don't need to prove that you could.


----------



## solaise (Sep 17, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Here's an example of the kind of cool stuff I expect from TiVo but actually get from 7MC. It's a grab from showing a TV series view, which not only shows the episodes you've got it shows which ones are missing and whether you've watched them:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am puzzled I have 7mc but where on earth is this view?? I have never seen anything like it!! What add-on do I need it's fantastic.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

MyMovies


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> There's far too much wasted space for one thing.


QED



> It always easy to say "I could do better" when you don't need to prove that you could.


There are two examples of "better" in this thread.

I don't need to prove that I personally could do better to expect professional UI designers to do better.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> There are two examples of "better" in this thread.


There are two examples of "different" or "alternative" in this thread. "Better" is subjective.



> I don't need to prove that I personally could do better to expect professional UI designers to do better.


Well that's not what you said


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> There are two examples of "different" or "alternative" in this thread. "Better" is subjective.


Up to a point. There are objective measures of usability which professional UI designers use, usually involving testing with panels of users to see how easily they can work out how to accomplish set tasks, and then actually do them. With all the visual noise and relying on use of coloured buttons, I don't think the new TiVo interface would do well.

But yes, my subjective opinion is that VM took a clean, classic proven interface, added a load of visual noise for commercial reasons, threw in some embarrassing primary school typography, stuck the actual interface bit in the corner, then painted the whole thing their corporate red just to make it even less visually pleasing.



> Well that's not what you said


?


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

TCM2007 said:


> VM took a clean, classic proven interface, added a load of visual noise for commercial reasons, threw in some embarrassing primary school typography, stuck the actual interface bit in the corner, then painted the whole thing their corporate red just to make it even less visually pleasing.


Except it's not a VM design - apart from suggesting the red colour.
TiVo have taken the premiere codebase and added VOD features _for _ VM.

Take a look at the TiVo Premiere GUI - tis the same.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

So the bad guys are at TiVo.

Surprising how much lower rent it looks in red, and I suspect most/all US shows have proper logos avoiding the home made look of some UK ones.


----------



## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> But yes, my subjective opinion is that VM took a clean, classic proven interface, added a load of visual noise for commercial reasons, threw in some embarrassing primary school typography, stuck the actual interface bit in the corner, then painted the whole thing their corporate red just to make it even less visually pleasing.


I second the "stuck the actual interface bit in the corner" bit.

It's a shame the Tivo UI principles couldn't have been adapted for widescreen, at least: more columns (perhaps time recorded) and more lines per screen.

Instead, there are fewer columns, having lost the Channel column, and as Stuart says, more distraction and noise.

And if Tivo is going to provide less info, the least they could do is make them look as beautiful as the screen shots on posted by TCM2007 and healeydave.


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Neither of those posted screenshots are of the recorded shows section though 
e.g. MCE:









TiVo (VM Tivo is the same, but red):










Notice how the titles are truncated on MCE - I hate the way titles are truncated on the modern grid style EPGs as well

We do seem to have lost this liveTV guide on the VM Tivo (this from US premiere):









in all other respects the VM TiVo is identical to the US premiere
so I'm wondering if just I haven't found the option to bring it back


----------



## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> MyMovies


Stuart are you using the version 4 pre release to get TV series ?


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

RichardJH said:


> Stuart are you using the version 4 pre release to get TV series ?


Yes.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Notice how the titles are truncated on MCE - I hate the way titles are truncated on the modern grid style EPGs as well


There are other layoy options which truncate less. I don't find it an issue.

I think my main issue is with the advert, sorry Carl, _discovery_ bar. Totally unnecessary and unhelpful clutter.


----------



## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Yes.


Not been a user of My Movies long enough to rack up the 2500 points needed for that version so guess I will have to wait for it to be available to all.

Is there any TV series options with the version 3 My Movies ??


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

No, v3 is just films (and box set DVDs).


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> I think my main issue is with the advert, sorry Carl, _discovery_ bar. Totally unnecessary and unhelpful clutter.


Your sarcasm aside, I completely agree. But it's there now and I can't see it going away anytime soon, so I can either not have Tivo or live with it. Guess which one I chose


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

It's not apparent from static screenshots, but the discovery bar is a bit more active and useful than just "adverts" IMO
If you ever found suggestions useful as they are much the same thing - but visual, context sensitive and on every screen.

They're more like "live" suggestions, as they change on every screen, and often related to what's currently in the folder you're looking at:

e.g. here it was showing Adrian Paul and Lost Colony because he was in both that film and Highlander which I'd recorded in that folder:











and another:





(Youtube has put it in stretchyvision again for some reason!)


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

mikerr said:


> It's not apparent from static screenshots, but the discovery bar is a bit more active and useful than just "adverts" IMO..


I don't think you'll change his mind 


> (Youtube has put it in stretchyvision again for some reason!)


Try these next time 
http://www.google.com/support/youtube/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=146402


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

mikerr said:


> If you ever found suggestions useful as they are much the same thing - but visual, context sensitive and on every screen.


No, I never did. And you could switch them off!


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

You still can. Just not the Discovery (or Suggestion) Bar.


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

It's funny from a usability point of view that the discovery bar takes exactly the same visual position as the web page banner ad.
It's the first thing on the screen, in arguably the most prominent part of the "page" but the thing the user is probably least likely to interact with. Certainly they have no control over the content as they haven't chosen any part of it directly.
It just goes to show that the visual grammar of the web page has moved into the TV interface - I'd love to know how it tested with users with lower or no internet experience. My suspicion would be that regular web users simply ignore it as visual noise and novice or non web users are initially drawn to it but are puzzled by why it only relates casually to their previous chosen action.

On a personal note I think it is an ugly intrusion though the function sounds interesting. It wouldn't make or break my decision to use the Tivo UI - Tivo and Virgin have done that for me.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

AMc said:


> It's funny from a usability point of view that the discovery bar takes exactly the same visual position as the web page banner ad.


Actually, it's more like a page header.



> It's the first thing on the screen, in arguably the most prominent part of the "page" but the thing the user is probably least likely to interact with. Certainly they have no control over the content as they haven't chosen any part of it directly.


Apart from the items that are suggested based on thumbs data, you mean?

And people sometimes wonder why I am a little flippant or dismissive of certain people's posts. 



> It just goes to show that the visual grammar of the web page has moved into the TV interface


Either that or there really was nowhere else better to put them. They could have gone on the bottom I suppose; but they chose the top. Big deal!



> I'd love to know how it tested with users with lower or no internet experience.


I have as much internet experience as the next person, but I certainly never made the connection you have.



> My suspicion would be that regular web users simply ignore it as visual noise and novice or non web users are initially drawn to it but are puzzled by why it only relates casually to their previous chosen action.


Until they actually read the manual and learn the reason it's there, you mean?


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

cwaring said:


> myself said:
> 
> 
> > Certainly they have no control over the content as they haven't chosen any part of it directly.
> ...


Basic UI prinicipal - the user makes and choice and the system responds with a related action. 
The suggestions bar is not directly related to a immediate UI input. I didn't say it was useless I said it didn't relate to anything they've chosen directly, with the remote, then and there in that interaction.


cwaring said:


> And people sometimes wonder why I am a little flippant or dismissive of certain people's posts.


And you may also wonder why people who have considered your contribution over the years to be overwhelmingly positive are now considering adding you as the first person they've ever felt the need to ignore in 9 years?

My post wasn't a cheap shot at you or Tivo or Virgin and I'm disappointed and annoyed by your choice to respond like that.


cwaring said:


> Either that or there really was nowhere else better to put them. They could have gone on the bottom I suppose; but they chose the top. Big deal!


*UI design should be a big deal*. For Tivo it used to be, but seems to be being lost which is a pity as the UI used to be a thing of great joy to use.
Carefully and clearly designed in a way that made it simple to use and pleasant to interact with.


cwaring said:


> I have as much internet experience as the next person, but I certainly never made the connection you have.


The next person has spent the last decade working in internet experience management for some names you might recognise. I used to work for one of the UK's leading usability consultancies before setting up as an independent consultant.



cwaring said:


> Until they actually read the manual and learn the reason it's there, you mean?


RTF? Really? for a cable box? I read my series 1 manual because I had a train journey home with it and I was excited. My partner, my daughter, Mum & Dad never needed to - in fact I'm pretty sure neither my brother's nor my parents had a manual when they bought them second hand.


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

AMc said:


> Basic UI prinicipal - the user makes and choice and the system responds with a related action.
> 
> The suggestions bar is not directly related to a immediate UI input.


Except that it is - you see it change when you change in every menu, into related content for that page. 
And other people point it out e.g. when they spot a film the actor is also in (even when they're not aware thats how it works in the background).



> I didn't say it was useless I said it didn't relate to anything they've chosen directly, with the remote, then and there in that interaction.


So if I browse a programme and the suggestion bar shows other programmes some of the cast are in - that's not related ?!

It often saves time from drilling down into several menus: cast / actor / shows / also in
or just click the related show already shows right at the top...

Before I got it - I thought it was just a static advert bar/section (like Inside Tivo / Highlights was on the S1) 
but having used it (and thumbed up alot of shows) it does predict your likes pretty well - just like suggestions did.

I realise this is the S1 forum (and tempers running high from the have-nots),
but much of the "advert" complaints levelled at that bar are similar to those levelled at suggestions in general in the past (need we mention dossa and joe?)

There's a difference between actually using a device and looking at screenshots. (not a snipe - you'll be less aware it's dynamic unless you watch a video)


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

AMc said:


> And you may also wonder why people who have considered your contribution over the years to be overwhelmingly positive are now considering adding you as the first person they've ever felt the need to ignore in 9 years?


Certainly none of the _regulars_ are; ie those that have not only-just come out of the wood-work now that there's movement on the Tivo front. I have also had some PMs along the following lines....



> What the hell is going on with this forum? The place seems full of Trolls - not even sure if it's worth popping in from time to time to see how things are, let alone trying to give a review on something. Yuk!





> My post wasn't a cheap shot at you or Tivo or Virgin...


And I did not take it as such. This is a forum where POV are discussed.

*UI design should be a big deal*. For Tivo it used to be, but seems to be being lost which is a pity as the UI used to be a thing of great joy to use. Carefully and clearly designed in a way that made it simple to use and pleasant to interact with.[/quote]
And yet I'm still not having any problems with it.



> RTF? Really? for a cable box?


Yes. Read the manual; or go on a Forum; or the Help/Support site for the product.



> I read my series 1 manual because I had a train journey home with it and I was excited. My partner, my daughter, Mum & Dad never needed to - in fact I'm pretty sure neither my brother's nor my parents had a manual when they bought them second hand.


Neither did I, but then I'm a nerd and therefore don't need manuals


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Google ads work in the same way on web pages - I'm not saying it's useless indeed I said so.

As I don't consider any of us here to be typical users. I was and still am interested in how this tested with real users - it's something I do for a living.
As I'm not getting one of these then I have a purely academic interest, I'm not interested in getting into a shouting match and so I'm not going to.


----------



## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

cwaring said:


> those that have not only-just come out of the wood-work now that there's movement on the Tivo front.


A statement that is (morally) wrong on so many levels.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Sorry. yes. That was a blanket statement and I apologise.

I was really referring to the Jo.Stafford's of this forum who never seemed to make one post that didn't contain a complete load of anti-Tivo nonsense which was constantly proved inaccurate by myself and others. See also sad_tivo_man.

I also recall butting metaphorical head with you in the early days of this merry-go-round but have agreed with you POV more recently


----------



## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

AMc said:


> Google ads work in the same way on web pages - I'm not saying it's useless indeed I said so.
> 
> I was and still am interested in how this tested with real users


Well I have had the VM Tivo now since 15th Feb and Wife and I are getting to hate the UI and the intrusive suggestions bar more and more.
This and a review of what channels we actually watch has drawn us to realize that our Win 7 HTPC with 2 SD and 1 HD tuner will suffice. So it is time to cancel before the 28 days and get back £149 and make a considerable monthly saving.

Of course my 2 S1 Tivos will still also run Freeview with hopes of being able to continue in use after 1st June


----------



## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Crikey, everyone's bad tempered nowadays. 

Personally, I'm totally on the fence about the UI. There are many things - like mikerr is hinting - that you suddenly realise what TiVo is doing and you think "Wow". I have done several times. There are bits that are utter pants - like the SD screens and flashes of live TV, but I'm hoping software updates will gradually cure that.

Discovery Bar - like AMc says, visually I ignore it. I'm not even conscious it's there. It's only this thread that has made me look specifically at it. <shrug>

A non-technical person has used my TiVo and found it intuitive.

Two teens recently had a go this weekend: "this is totally cool".

I think the only people who will notice a difference, and make a call one way or another are S1 users. Those coming from Sky or V+ will likely be impressed.


----------



## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

ColinYounger said:


> Crikey, everyone's bad tempered nowadays.


Not me 

It's just hard to make the ultimate decision. It's not even the money aspect.

I think the main issue is that I have about 2.5 GB of recorded TV and nearly a 1000 DVDs and not enough time to watch even a small proportion of it.


----------



## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

RichardJH said:


> not enough time to watch even a small proportion of it.


Now THERE'S something I can relate to. 

Totally respect the reasons you want to bail: I can understand the "too many channels" bit - I hardly stray from the main ones, to be honest. Mainly because of the "not enough time" issue.

I also want my two S1s to continue to work on Freeview as they're still damn good.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

ColinYounger said:


> Discovery Bar - like AMc says, visually I ignore it. I'm not even conscious it's there. It's only this thread that has made me look specifically at it. <shrug>


I'm concious it's there, and wish it wasn't, but I too just ignore it


----------



## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

cwaring said:


> I'm concious


Just as well you are otherwise you wouldn't be able to reply to practicality every post made


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Now now


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> I'm concious it's there, and wish it wasn't, but I too just ignore it


Yet you spend half this thread defending it.

I think people's views on the discovery bar may change when Virgin start seeding it with programmes they want to promote, rather than things just based on your thumbs.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

^ Mine won't. I'll still ignore it.

Oh, and I have never _actually_ defended it because it doesn't need defending. Some people like it, some don't and some are indifferent. I have merely pointed out its use.


----------



## AndyWilson (Sep 1, 2007)

Despite being in a Virgin Media area Im reluctant to upgrade as Im also extremely disappointed with the look of the new interface. Whilst the new machine arguably ticks most of the boxes for on paper spec they appear to have done away with many of the things I love about my Series 1 in favour of rubbish designs seen on other TV interfaces e.g. grid style EPGs and the info banner positioned in the middle of the screen.

Instead of introducing a load of clutter, which some people are actively having to ignore, Id have preferred text lists to have simply increased by a few lines. 

The Virgin Media versus US Premiere screenshots are interesting - Id previously avoided looking at other Tivo versions so as not to get jealous.

Could someone clarify a few points regarding the Virgin Media (or indeed the Premiere).
Can you set up a recording by using browse by channel?
Can the info banner be toggled into 3 different sizes?
Are the tuners current channel numbers displayed on the front of the box? - I often check that the correct channel is being buffered by glancing at the front of my cable box without having to switch on the TV.
Cheers


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

AndyWilson said:


> Can you set up a recording by using browse by channel?


Yes. Time/Channel/Manual Record all still there.


> Can the info banner be toggled into 3 different sizes?


No, not directly.


> Are the tuners current channel numbers displayed on the front of the box?


No. No digital display on the box at all. Bit like the S1


----------

