# Tivo2 - without sub? Who's smart enough?



## porter (Dec 16, 2006)

Have a Tivo Series1 unit, unsubbed, and records well. Bought a S2 and wasn't aware of the 'junking down' of the unit by Tivo, thought they would have improved things by now.
So............these aren't that smart of a unit. Folks are smart enough to get the other non-pirate hacks to make the series2 walk and talk, why haven't we seen a hack to open the unit to record without a sub? I'm not asking for free subscription, just the functions Tivo already has approved by putting them on the series 1; recording by date and time without a sub. 

If it can't be done we'll just put it back online for sale, cause I'm not paying for something that I already have the ability to do in a previous model.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Not a permitted topic here. Don't bother arguing whether that's right or wrong because it's been argued a million times. Tivo says you need a sub to do those things, therefore doing such a thing without a Tivo sub is theft of service.


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## Mars (Sep 13, 2001)

> doing such a thing without a Tivo sub is theft of service


Theft of WHAT?

He owns the TiVo.
He wants to record tv shows manually, just like anyone does with a vcr legally. 
You can find out whats on tv by reading the newspaper instead of subscribing to TiVo's guide service.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

reread sentence 2. Of the reply. If you need it explained The service Tivo supplies is the subscription to the guide service that lets tivo do its thing. Any talk of getting aroud that is theft of service.


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## Mars (Sep 13, 2001)

I have a TiVo 2 that I am happily paying the subscription every month. Someday I may move on to a newer TiVo or whatever, and this one will end up in the closet. Am I stealing service if I take the hard drive out of it and continue using it in my computer? The TiVo that I own is a piece of hardware that I chose to do as I wish. If I can get it to record manually I will do so, and I will share that anyone in here just as freely as people talk about putting larger hard drives in their TiVos.


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## kcir (Feb 22, 2005)

What I would like to see is for one TiVo to be able to grab the tv listings from another. If I have one TiVo I pay for the service and buy a second I would think I should be able to link the units together. Since I pay for the information I should be able to use it on other units on my home network. I don't view this as theft of service. I'm not trying to steal from TiVo. I like the service and pay for it because I think it is worth it. Even cable companies gave up charging for additional cable jacks.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Tivo does what cable companies do with their set top boxes with their MSD. I pay 5 bucks per box on my DTV account, how is tivo different in that regard?


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## kcir (Feb 22, 2005)

It is. You are leasing the box from the cable company. In the case of TiVo you buy the unit from a store and thus you own it. With the cable company you pay for the service. If you buy HBO you pay a per month fee and if you get another box you only pay for the box. You don't pay for HBO on two or more TVS. I know TiVo is in the business of making money and I do support that because I do enjoy the service. I just don't think it is fair to make people pay for the service twice if the units are in the same house.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I happen to own my dtv boxes and still pay a fee 5 bucks per box.


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## wscannell (Dec 7, 2003)

In reality, the cost of the TiVo hardware is subsidized by the subscriptions. So you only pay a part of the cost of the hardware.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Mars said:


> If I can get it to record manually I will do so, and I will share that anyone in here just as freely as people talk about putting larger hard drives in their TiVos.


Except that you are not free to talk about it here. You are not the owner of this site, and the owner has asked that it not be discussed. Your freedom of speech ends at your keyboard.


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## Mars (Sep 13, 2001)

> the owner has asked that it not be discussed


Well I haven't seen this one. Where is it posted I can not talk about using my TiVo to make manual recordings.


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

cheer said:


> Don't bother arguing whether that's right or wrong because it's been argued a million times. Tivo says you need a sub to do those things, therefore doing such a thing without a Tivo sub is theft of service.


This is the bottom line. This can't be discussed here.


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## Mars (Sep 13, 2001)

> Tivo says you need a sub to do those things


I think you are wrong. I think that is just your opinion, and that it is not stated officially anywhere.

My OPINION is that my TiVo, as shipped, will not record tv unless it is subscribed to the TiVo guide service as a marketing ploy. But they are not able to stop you from using it as you please, including making manual recordings. Since no one so far has shown me where the "owner" of this forum specifically forbids my interest of making manual recordings with my series 2 TiVo, I will discuss it as I please. Why don't you sit back and watch, maybe you will want to do this yourself some day.


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## ForrestB (Apr 8, 2004)

I suggest you review Tivo's Service Agreement - pay special attention to number 1, 8 and 11 Tivo Service Agreement


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## JJBliss (Jan 28, 2002)

Mars said:


> Since no one so far has shown me where the "owner" of this forum specifically forbids my interest of making manual recordings with my series 2 TiVo, I will discuss it as I please.


Here you go, jackass:


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Mars said:


> I think you are wrong. I think that is just your opinion, and that it is not stated officially anywhere.
> 
> My OPINION is that my TiVo, as shipped, will not record tv unless it is subscribed to the TiVo guide service as a marketing ploy. But they are not able to stop you from using it as you please, including making manual recordings. Since no one so far has shown me where the "owner" of this forum specifically forbids my interest of making manual recordings with my series 2 TiVo, I will discuss it as I please. Why don't you sit back and watch, maybe you will want to do this yourself some day.


have you hacked your cell phone to make it free? or your cable or internet?


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## sk33t3r (Jul 9, 2003)

JJBliss said:


> Here you go, jackass:


WELL said JJ!!!!!!!!


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Mars said:


> I have a TiVo 2 that I am happily paying the subscription every month. Someday I may move on to a newer TiVo or whatever, and this one will end up in the closet. Am I stealing service if I take the hard drive out of it and continue using it in my computer? The TiVo that I own is a piece of hardware that I chose to do as I wish. If I can get it to record manually I will do so, and I will share that anyone in here just as freely as people talk about putting larger hard drives in their TiVos.


No, the TiVo that you own is NOT just a piece of hardware. It contains software, that you are permitted to use so long as you agree to their license agreement.

If you want to format the hard drive, load linux on it, and get your TiVo to record without ANY TiVo software involved, then yes, I think that you are free to do so.

But TiVo does not permit you to modify THEIR software to do what you are asking, therefore it is theft of service.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Mars said:


> Since no one so far has shown me where the "owner" of this forum specifically forbids my interest of making manual recordings with my series 2 TiVo, I will discuss it as I please.


OTOH you have been called a jackass by JJBliss. On the T fraking CF!!!

Do you have any notion of the honor that has been bestowed upon you?

You should retire. Never watch TV again. Read books, bowl, drink to excess, whatever. Because never again in your life will you rise to a moment like this. Walk away. Walk proudly.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Mars said:


> I have a TiVo 2 that I am happily paying the subscription every month. Someday I may move on to a newer TiVo or whatever, and this one will end up in the closet. Am I stealing service if I take the hard drive out of it and continue using it in my computer? The TiVo that I own is a piece of hardware that I chose to do as I wish. If I can get it to record manually I will do so, and I will share that anyone in here just as freely as people talk about putting larger hard drives in their TiVos.


The hard drive is yours; use it as you wish.

The Tivo software is licensed and requires a subscription; hack it to work with out the sub and you're stealing service. You don't own software. (Spare me the lecture on why you think that's wrong, because it doesn't matter.)


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

kcir said:


> What I would like to see is for one TiVo to be able to grab the tv listings from another. If I have one TiVo I pay for the service and buy a second I would think I should be able to link the units together. Since I pay for the information I should be able to use it on other units on my home network. I don't view this as theft of service. I'm not trying to steal from TiVo. I like the service and pay for it because I think it is worth it. Even cable companies gave up charging for additional cable jacks.


Cable also gets revenue from the programming. The service fee is Tivo's only revenue source.

Since the service is a requirement, working without it is theft. You can say you don't view it that way, but it is.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Mars said:


> Well I haven't seen this one. Where is it posted I can not talk about using my TiVo to make manual recordings.


You can't talk about theft of service. This is really basic. If Tivo says service is required, then getting it to work without service is theft of service.


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## Mars (Sep 13, 2001)

> Here you go, jackass:


JJBliss,

This is not a very nice way to talk in here. Language like this is the sort of thing Mr. Bott HAS asked us not to use in this forum.


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## HKP (Dec 17, 2006)

cheer said:


> If Tivo says service is required, then getting it to work without service is theft of service.


And if Tivo says the moon is made out of cheese?


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## mgmrick (Aug 28, 2002)

Are there not dvd recorders out there right now that have a hard drive in them? I imagine you can use them to record just like the "Tivo". For some reason Tivo has not been able to bring down the cost of the boxes...they need to make money every month in order to be profitable by charging service fees. Not sure they are profitable though


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

HKP said:


> And if Tivo says the moon is made out of cheese?


Do you really need me to explain why this is an invalid analogy?


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## ttodd1 (Nov 6, 2003)

Mars said:


> JJBliss,
> 
> This is not a very nice way to talk in here. Language like this is the sort of thing Mr. Bott HAS asked us not to use in this forum.


Ahhh so you are familiar with the owner of the forum?


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

HKP said:


> And if Tivo says the moon is made out of cheese?


Maybe if they made the moon and the services required to use it.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

mgmrickFor some reason Tivo has not been able to bring down the cost of the boxes...they need to make money every month in order to be profitable by charging service fees. Not sure they are profitable though[/QUOTE said:


> $70! They practically give em away now.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Mars said:


> Theft of WHAT?


The service, which includes numerous features not reated to the guide data, or tangentially related to same.


> He owns the TiVo.


Hardware, yes, software no. He licenses the software, and part of the license terms is that the unit be subbed to access certain features.
The License terms were different with Series 1s, so they could record without service.



> He wants to record tv shows manually, just like anyone does with a vcr legally.


Except the VCRs don't require you subscribe to a service to use them.


> You can find out whats on tv by reading the newspaper instead of subscribing to TiVo's guide service.


TiVo's service is more than guide data, despite the fact that guide data is most of what is delivered.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

kcir said:


> What I would like to see is for one TiVo to be able to grab the tv listings from another. If I have one TiVo I pay for the service and buy a second I would think I should be able to link the units together. Since I pay for the information I should be able to use it on other units on my home network. I don't view this as theft of service. I'm not trying to steal from TiVo. I like the service and pay for it because I think it is worth it. Even cable companies gave up charging for additional cable jacks.


TiVo's license with their guide provider may not allow that. They probably have to pay per unit, and there for have to support the infrastructure to deliver it to each unit. Not to mention that recording and other features are part of TiVos service as well.

Extra cable jacks and D-TiVos put no more strain on their respective "systems", so don't require further payments.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Gunnyman said:


> Tivo does what cable companies do with their set top boxes with their MSD. I pay 5 bucks per box on my DTV account, how is tivo different in that regard?


Providing TiVo service to a box has finite infrastructure and service costs (guide data, servers, modem pools).

For satellite and cable, they have to authorise additional boxes, in that additinoal "activation units" must be entered in their system, although the infrastructure to authorise a cable or satellite bbox is less than to service a standalone TiVo.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Mars said:


> My OPINION is that my TiVo, as shipped, will not record tv unless it is subscribed to the TiVo guide service as a marketing ploy. But they are not able to stop you from using it as you please, including making manual recordings.


You are entitled to your opinion, but you are totally wrong. You in fact need to subscribe to the TiVo service to record, and they use software protectiions to control the paid TiVo features.



> I will discuss it as I please.


You will have to find some other place. Most TiVo forums are pro TiVo service, and will not condone theft of the TiVo service.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Is this thread _still_ going? It should have stopped at post #2.


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## jporter12 (Mar 10, 2006)

windracer said:


> Is this thread _still_ going? It should have stopped at post #2.


Agreed, but there have been some interesting points brought up, and most re-affirm that the TiVo is a doorstop without a sub, unless someone was to rewrite the software (not reverse engineer or anything like that) and even then, the code on the chips on the motherboard would still belong to tivo.

This does have me thinking, maybe TiVo could get into the DVR PC market? Instead of Windows MCE, TiVo media center?

Just some thinking aloud....


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## Raymond Day (May 13, 2002)

If you could find one of the 1st images they used on the TiVo Series 1. You could do manual recordings. That's what I remember. But with TiVo auto updating. I don't think any one has a old image.

I think you still had to subscribed to the TiVo guide service. Not sure on that. It's been a long time.

I herd TiVo stock is not doing to good. I guess that's why they have the Series 3 cost a lot and quit the life time service. I guess they make most there $ on the guide service. That things like beyondTV on your computer get the guide data for free. But I guess were beyondTV gets it's data is the same place TiVo gets it but TiVo I guess helps make it. I don't know.

ReplayTV for the PC cost like a $100 then I think $20 a month for the guide service. I tested ReplayTV out and beyondTV is way better and faster.

People not in the USA have ways of making there own guide data and using TiVo. I think they can only use TiVo Series 1's for that. So you can't call it a door stop.

I think it cost TiVo to much $ to have it out side the USA. I guess if they see a lot of people doing it then they could make $ and may start the guide out side the USA.

-Raymond Day


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## willardcpa (Feb 23, 2001)

Raymond Day said:


> ....I think it cost TiVo to much $ to have it out side the USA. I guess if they see a lot of people doing it then they could make $ and may start the guide out side the USA.
> 
> -Raymond Day


Hmmm, wonder what all those guys in the Tivo UK forum are doing???


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Raymond Day said:


> I herd TiVo stock is not doing to good. y


Can we add anything else to this thread to get it banned?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Raymond Day said:


> I herd TiVo stock


I've heard of people herding livestock, but never TiVo stock.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Raymond Day said:


> If you could find one of the 1st images they used on the TiVo Series 1. You could do manual recordings. That's what I remember. But with TiVo auto updating. I don't think any one has a old image.


The current version doesn't really matter. That is just a benchmark for when the license terms changed. 1.3 from or less from the factory is what the manual recroding capavle Series 1s came with. Installing 1.3 on a later machine won't change the license terms to the older ones that allow manual recordings without sub.

Of course, you cannot install 1.3 on a Series 2 at all.


> I guess that's why they have the Series 3 cost a lot and quit the life time service.


The series 3 has initial higher costs to recoup the cost of development, and to take advantage of the premium market that would pay that much.


> I guess they make most there $ on the guide service. That things like beyondTV on your computer get the guide data for free.
> But I guess were beyondTV gets it's data is the same place TiVo gets it but TiVo I guess helps make it. I don't know.


TiVo's service is more than guide data, and for the guide data part of it, TiVo has to pay for it.


> I think it cost TiVo to much $ to have it out side the USA. I guess if they see a lot of people doing it then they could make $ and may start the guide out side the USA.


It depends on the circumstances.

For Canada, gude data is already available from Tribune in the same database that it comes form for the US, so it is pretty easy to extend that to Canadial listings, with jsut adding support for Canadian postal codes and such.

For other countries, they will need to obtain guide data, and contract a modem pool likely.


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## Sbmocp (Apr 19, 2001)

classicsat said:


> You are entitled to your opinion, but you are totally wrong. You in fact need to subscribe to the TiVo service to record, and they use software protectiions to control the paid TiVo features.


I'll chip in my .02 here...I have an unsubbed S1 standalone w/software version 3.1(?) that I became tired of paying a monthly tribute on, and regularly use 2 DTiVos instead. I'd read something on the forums here w-a-a-y back that, if you contacted TiVo, they could throw a software switch to allow manual recording. I called and made the request, and they did it.

Now, every time I hit the TiVo button to schedule a manual recording, I get a nag about needing to be subscribed. I can erase it and schedule the recording anyway. It still wants to call in and refresh the channel list occasionally, but it isn't subscribed in any way. So, I'm afraid you're not correct in your assertion.

TiVo Canada had a way around the guide service until TiVo started servicing Canada, but they stopped distributing/discussing the methodology to do so. The s/w would only work in Canada anyway (checked IP addressing somehow to determine where it was). I imagine someone with skills and determination could come up with something if they wanted to badly enough.

On a somewhat related subject, the original TiVo rep before TiVoPony who used to visit here (I think his name was Richard) had mentioned there was a 'switch' in the software that would enable full TiVo functionality w/o a sub. It would be sent/given to TiVo owners in the event that TiVo went belly-up so that they wouldn't be stuck with a useless doorstop. I wonder if that switch and those plans are still in place in the event of TiVo's demise...?


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

None of which changes that you have to either get TIVO to flip a software switch (I wonder what conditions you have to meet to get it done)(You could spend some effort looking for it) in which case Tivo authorized it so it isn't theft of service or you do it yourself in which case you are bypassing tivo's service requirement in which case it is theft of service.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Sbmocp said:


> I'd read something on the forums here w-a-a-y back that, if you contacted TiVo, they could throw a software switch to allow manual recording. I called and made the request, and they did it.
> 
> Now, every time I hit the TiVo button to schedule a manual recording, I get a nag about needing to be subscribed. I can erase it and schedule the recording anyway. It still wants to call in and refresh the channel list occasionally, but it isn't subscribed in any way. So, I'm afraid you're not correct in your assertion.


For some (most but not all?) S1 TiVo's TiVo had a different licensing agreement which did not explicitly state that you needed a subscription to do manual recording. TiVo's which were purchased prior to the change can do manual recording without a subscription. If you have replaced or your hard-drive on an elligible S1 it is possible that it will not allow manual recording, this is because TiVo needs to "through the switch" to enable it due to the replaced drive. You will not be able to get TiVo to through the switch on a non-eligible device, which means all S2/S3 and some S1s. That's not theft of service as TiVo allows it to happen as part of the original agreement.


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## Raymond Day (May 13, 2002)

Not long after Series 2 came out. I worked for a computer place and they wanted to record video with a camera for security. I had a TiVo and remember you could manual record. I got them to buy a Series 2 and I set it up and worked on getting it to record the video camera. But I could not find out how. I thought I was just missing something. I called TiVo and they said you can't. I said I remember you could and asked if there was a way to down grade and they said no. Ended up taking the TiVo back and used a computer to record video.

I know the TiVo would of worked better to fast forward or rewind in the video to see what if any thing happened and know it could record a for a long time. The computer one was hard to set up to have it record more then a day on a big hard drive and the video did not look all that good.

-Raymond Day


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## porter (Dec 16, 2006)

Well....... Question on a different tangent......This and other sites appear to be upholding Tivo on the basis Tivo's been nice to them. In the past this has been true, but with the closing on all the sites that maintained the 'virgin' software images I would think that logic would change. Tivo has gone the way of the sat providers, they are closing all access to information thereby calling an end to their 'look the other way' thoughts.
I'm not calling for hacking the box for free access to their subs, just asking why such loyalty still to a firm who's now closing you folks out of the loop.

While not discussing anything you call theft here is your right, direct email of info isn't a problem.
RC
ciltech#mailcan,com


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## JJBliss (Jan 28, 2002)

porter said:


> While not discussing anything you call theft here is your right, direct email of info isn't a problem.
> RC
> ciltech#mailcan,com


tsk tsk tsk....

What makes you think this is any better?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Distributing TiVo's copyrighted property is one thing, which TiVo has cut off the open practice thereof. Discussing hacking it is another, which TiVo has so far not showed an interest in pursuing such forums, since most such forae maintain a "no servce theft" policy.

They aren't closing us hackers out of any loop. What source they do have to release is released, and software images are available with instantcake or others.

The big-daddy of Tivo hacking sites is still up.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mgmrick said:


> Are there not dvd recorders out there right now that have a hard drive in them? I imagine you can use them to record just like the "Tivo".


Yes, there are recorders with hard drives in them that do not require a subscription. (Whether they have a DVD recorder in them also is irrelevant to this discussion.)

In fact, I got one to use _along_ with my Tivos, because I couldn't do things on the Tivo/DVD recorder combos that I wanted to do -- record multiple shows to DVD in separate sessions, and edit recordings.. (Though sometimes I edit recordings even without burning to DVD, such as to remove the first hour of a two hour show to make more room.)

However, they certainly don't record "just like the Tivo". I would have paid $$$ to have the features I mention above along with the Tivo interface and reliability. (There are several bugs I've ran into, one of which hosed my hard drive around a year ago, on my non-Tivo recorder.)


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Raymond Day said:


> If you could find one of the 1st images they used on the TiVo Series 1. You could do manual recordings.


But trying to do ALL recordings manual on series 1s is a big pain and not the best way to use a tivo -- since you get nag screens up the wazoo.

If one doesn't want a subscription, they might as well buy a standalone recorder *made* to be used without a subscription because it'll work better for those purposes.

(Disclaimer, I originally bought a second used tivo, knowingly broken, intending to use it subscriptionless. This was back when there weren't as many standalone DVRs.. plus, it ended up having lifetime service so I lucked out... and if I do transfer lifetime on one of my S1s to a S3, I *may* on rare occassions after the free year is up, do some manual recordings, but only if all of my other tuners are taken up.. I don't think it will be a common occurrence.)


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

It MIGHT just be faster to answer the OP's question...



AFAIK, the Series2 could not be hacked to work without a sub, even if you wanted to. I'm basing my assessment on the fact that many people hack their tivo's to work in other countries, like Australia, New Zealand, etc. Since TiVo isn't in those markets, they have to be hacked to have guide data, etc. TiVo is WELL aware of the exploits used and have shut many of them down.

Your new TiVo is probably a Series 2.5, and requires your PROM to be removed, socketed, reimaged, and reinstalled, JUST to give you access to the OS. 

The 'hacks' would be a huge undertaking, I won't get into any detail as it isn't allowed here, but it is safe to say that TiVo has increased security quite a bit since the Series 1's.

SO, the point is, what is the point? Sell your tivo, buy a series 1 with the software version that allows this!


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