# TiVo Officially Announces: TiVo KidZone



## W Auggie H (Oct 11, 2001)

http://www.tivo.com/1.2.17.asp



> Make family-friendly programming easy and fun! Parents get a safe place to make decisions about what their kids can watch based on their personal interests and values. And kids get their own space to find and watch their favorite shows! It's that simple.
> 
> A password-protected, "safe" mode that, when enabled, automatically displays only the shows you pre-approve for your kids. This first-of-its-kind feature set also lets you:
> 
> ...


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## Okeemike (Apr 24, 2002)

How exciting.


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

It's funny how the press made a joke of what a letdown the Apple presentation was...



This has got to be the biggest letdown in the history of Tivo.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I said it in the other thread, but :down: :down: :down: for TiVo associating itself with a despicable pro-censorship group like the PTC. 

I'm one of your biggest fanboys, but awful awful awful.


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

I imagine people with children would think this would be a great tool for them. If Tivo can somehow keep in mind the age of the child and only allow content suitable for the child (and maybe later incorporate things such as letting the child ask if they can watch certain content, something like the way MSN did/does with children accounts), then this would be a great thing.


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> I said it in the other thread, but :down: :down: :down: for TiVo associating itself with a despicable pro-censorship group like the PTC.
> 
> I'm one of your biggest fanboys, but awful awful awful.


I don't have kids, but when I do, *I want to censor* what they watch! I only want them watching what I allow them to watch. When they are adults, then they have free reign on what they do, but when they are under my care and supervision, I have to the right to choose for them.

People talk about why not the parents get more involved in raising their children, then when tools become available that aid this, people cry censorship.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

MasterCephus said:


> I don't have kids, but when I do, *I want to censor* what they watch! I only want them watching what I allow them to watch. When they are adults, then they have free reign on what they do, but when they are under my care and supervision, I have to the right to choose for them.
> 
> People talk about why not the parents get more involved in raising their children, then when tools become available that aid this, people cry censorship.


Do some research on the PTC. They've devoted themselves to censoring what everybody watches.

I'm not saying that this is what TiVo is doing with this, it's not. But the PTC is absolutely a censor what everyone watches group.


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## briguymaine (Mar 17, 2004)

oh man that's it, weak... :down: 

It's funny that two of the companies that I like the most came out with less than groundbreaking announcements this week. At least Apple prepared us a bit by just having the announcement come to their living room and keeping it pretty informal. I guess Tivo did too by not really telling the world about it until yesterday afternoon! (AFAIK)

My three year old already knows how to run the Tivo, I hope this doesn't add ANOTHER layer of menus that we have to click through to get to the goods. Do you think there will be ads targeted at our kids in this "safe haven"? Seems like this is the tact that Tivo is taking lately, attached sponsors to everything that can hold one.

Dear God, please give me a Mac mini with DVR functionality.

Edit: just read the link again, "Available mid-2006" so, given their track record, really I don't have to worry about this hitting my box until late-2007!


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## cautionespn (Feb 21, 2003)

> - Browse and select shows recommended by family-friendly organizations


Family friendly? The PTC? :down: :down: :down:

Losing me as a customer as a result. VERY possible. Rarely do my principles collide with my wants/desires as heavily as this one does. I have been a loyal TiVo customer since I got my series 1, have purchased 2 series 2 tivo's and have convinced at least 10 other people to buy into TiVo and am a TiVo stockholder. I honestly don't know that I would even watch TV without a TiVo, but the decision to pander to the PTC has left me little choice but to rethink my investment in TiVo and their technology. As far as I'm concered this is a sad day for TiVo.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Again, I understand what TiVo is doing, and I think it could be a valueable option to offer parents.

I'm just profoundly dissapointed that they would associate themselves with such a hateful group of nutjobs.


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

I don't know much about the PTC, but the idea of having a tool to help censor material to children is a good thing. If Tivo can make this a simple and easy process (which they are known to be able to do), then this would be a great selling point.

What other alternatives would Tivo have beside using the PTC? Just curious. Since I don't have kids, I am not worried so much about censorship. If I turn the channel something that I don't like, I turn the channel. However, I would not want my child to be able to make that channel change to a channel showing something my child is not ready to see.


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## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

Oh well! It least it will never appear on my DirecTivo.


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## JakeyB (Apr 24, 2003)

Where in this announcement does TiVo say they are associating themselves with the PTC?


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## cautionespn (Feb 21, 2003)

MasterCephus said:


> Since I don't have kids, I am not worried so much about censorship. If I turn the channel something that I don't like, I turn the channel. However, I would not want my child to be able to make that channel change to a channel showing something my child is not ready to see.


To quote the PTC themselves (via a post in another thread):



> Originally Posted by PTC
> If you don't like something on television, why don't you just change the channel?
> 
> Merely changing the channel is essentially to accept what is on that channel, and admit powerlessness to change what is on one's own television. To be forced to change the channel is to accept the loss of additional stations to unhealthy content and to expect similar material to one day appear on the next channel


I don't know what other organizations may or may not exist in this sphere but I know that the PTC are a group that TiVo should not associate with. TiVo already has the ability to censor for children's viewing using the already existing ratings system.

Instead they have chosen to include the PTC's insanity as a barometer of what is OK for a child to view. The same group that condemned the Teletubbies because one of them is pink and has a triangle on its head so it must be homosexual. Despicable.


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## cautionespn (Feb 21, 2003)

JakeyB said:


> Where in this announcement does TiVo say they are associating themselves with the PTC?


From the Press Release:



> As part of this initiative, TiVo is partnering with leading parenting and family groups including Common Sense Media and the Parents Television Council, the two largest grass roots organizations, with 4 million members between them, to create entire menus of recommended programming automatically provided right to the television set.


http://tivo.com/cms_static/press_78.html


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## DavidS (Sep 27, 2000)

JakeyB said:


> Where in this announcement does TiVo say they are associating themselves with the PTC?


From the press release posted at the link:

"As part of this initiative, TiVo is partnering with leading parenting and family groups including Common Sense Media and the Parents Television Council, the two largest grass roots organizations, with 4 million members between them, to create entire menus of recommended programming automatically provided right to the television set."

This (association with PTC) is the first thing TiVo has done that makes me actually angry.


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## briguymaine (Mar 17, 2004)

MasterCephus said:


> People talk about why not the parents get more involved in raising their children, then when tools become available that aid this, people cry censorship.


My wife and I made a decision before we had our kids to raise them ourselves, meaning not using daycare, nannies, etc. As a family we took a huge paycut, about half of our income, to do this. We limit how much TV our kids watch to about 1 hour for a typical day. We know exactly what they are watching because we are in the house with them! I realize that this isn't feasible for some families, both parents have to work, but it's sad because our kids are precious and are being raised by strangers. <end rant>

Granted my kids are young, 4 and 2, but if parents are around, paying attention, and involved, there really is no need for this. In my house, we tend to set up season passes for shows that we have previewed and the kids seem interested in. The kids just go to Now Playing and pick what they want to watch.

I think this is just a marketing tool for Tivo, "we protect your kids because we care". Like I said before, I hope there isn't a lot of ads attached to this. I hope it helps Tivo sell some more boxes and stay alive but it seems like another useless tool.


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## cautionespn (Feb 21, 2003)

MasterCephus said:


> People talk about why not the parents get more involved in raising their children, then when tools become available that aid this, people cry censorship.


This would be fine if the PTC wasn't actually a group that advocates true censorship. Seriously go out and do some reading on them. They actively advocate true censorship and this is their stated goal. They want television to promote (their particular view of ) a "Christian" agenda and to not be allowed to show anything that is contrary to this. Their goal is active government censorship.

Does this sound good to you? Is TiVo working towards true censorship? Probably not, but they are enabling and providing legitimacy to the PTC and that is not somethign I am willing to put my money towards.


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

briguymaine said:


> My wife and I made a decision before we had our kids to raise them ourselves, meaning not using daycare, nannies, etc. As a family we took a huge paycut, about half of our income, to do this. We limit how much TV our kids watch to about 1 hour for a typical day. We know exactly what they are watching because we are in the house with them! I realize that this isn't feasible for some families, both parents have to work, but it's sad because our kids are precious and are being raised by strangers. <end rant>
> 
> Granted my kids are young, 4 and 2, but if parents are around, paying attention, and involved, there really is no need for this. In my house, we tend to set up season passes for shows that we have previewed and the kids seem interested in. The kids just go to Now Playing and pick what they want to watch.
> 
> I think this is just a marketing tool for Tivo, "we protect your kids because we care". Like I said before, I hope there isn't a lot of ads attached to this. I hope it helps Tivo sell some more boxes and stay alive but it seems like another useless tool.


**pats you on the back**

I hear this argument and I appreciate that. But what about single parents who have to work and thus are forced to allow their children to be alone for a time (think latch-key kids)? Do they love thier children less because they can't be with their children 100% of the time as you are able to do?

Life throws curve balls and not everyone has the perfect set up as you have elluded to. Some have to use tools available to them and I applaud Tivo for giving parents yet another tool. While people might not agree with Tivo using PTC, I can imagine as most people have stated that this is still a good concept.

Let me ask you, how do you control the internet? Each website is considered a station that your child can view, if they only know the channel number (web address). How do you prevent them from going to site you don't want them to go?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

MasterCephus said:


> While people might not agree with Tivo using PTC, I can imagine as most people have stated that this is still a good concept.


I can't imagine why anyone would be upset with TiVo offering this as an option. But aligning with a company who has very questionable ethics doesn't make sense when you are talking about creating Kid-safe programming. Having a good goal doesn't make it right to work with a company like the PTC.


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## Stoystown (Jun 13, 2002)

I agree that partnering with the Parents Television Council is a HORRIBLE idea for Tivo. The biggest problem I have with them is that they are a poltiical organization more than a "we care about your kids" organization. Back in '04 they were responsible for 99 percent of the comlpaints to the FCC:

http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/06/231234&tid=153&tid=219

They then would send out a press release saying how Americans were so angry. Bah. Their fluffed-up outrage at Janet Jackson's boob and Paris Hilton eating a cheeseburger in a suggestive way is transparent.

This is a bad, bad, bad idea. I don't know if it's trying to get in good with Kevin Martin, the chairman of the FCC who was an early supporter of the PTC, or whether they just made a huge mistake, but it is a bad idea.

I have three kids. We use the V-Chip. The current FCC hates the V-Chip because the Clinton Administration people came up with it, and it solves the problems they want to complaint about. This is just plain stupid.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Unexciting, but I may find it useful. Just the other day my 8 year old daughter was asking if it was ok to watch a certain suggestion that was in the NP list. I had to go in, look at the program info and then decide. If the engine behind Kidzone is powerful enough to allow us to do a good job of "filtering" or whatever you would call it, then I give this a :up: from the usefulness perspective, but still a big :down: :down: from an excitement perspective.


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

Let's forget the ratings council stupidity stuff for a minute and just think about what a stupid waste of resources this was at Tivo. I got rid of my Series 2 Tivos when Tivo would not fix the pixellation at channel change problem. I thought to myself that Tivo just did not have the resources to fix problems with the software. Now lets fast forward to this new "Feature" and the amount of manpower Tivo put into it. What a waste. Please tell me there are people at Tivo who are as baffled by this feature as we are. I'm sure there was some eye rolling when this became a priority at Tivo..


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

A completely pointless addon since TiVo can already filter by ratings and content. All this does is give lazy parents, who don't actually want to manually set up filtering on their TiVo, a way to have a 3rd party do it automatically.

Basically it's another example of letting someone else parent your kids while at the same time making yourself seem like a better parent.

It's definately not something to get excited about.


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

Darn, I thought they'd link up with Pat Robertson. He was 'there' on this issue before anyone ever thought up the idea of a PTC.

There's no question on the legitimacy of censorship where Pat's involved ! We all know what he stands for.


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## SC0TLANDF0REVER (Dec 9, 2001)

It looks like there may be a choice according to the cNet article:

c | net

"Under the TiVo plan, parents will be able to designate ratings issued by one of two groups--Common Sense Media *or* the Parents Television Council.

Common Sense Media was formed in 2003 with backers including Charles R. Schwab, the brokerage company executive, and Philip F. Anschutz, the billionaire investor; the Parents Television Council, formed in 1995, is headed by L. Brent Bozell III, a conservative commentator.

The new TiVo service will let children watch only programs the designated group deems appropriate for the age range specified by the parent. In addition, parents can automatically record programs designated by the groups as especially worthwhile."

Am I reading it wrong or is there a real choice?


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

Choose your poison !


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

morac said:


> A completely pointless addon since TiVo can already filter by ratings and content. All this does is give lazy parents, who don't actually want to manually set up filtering on their TiVo, a way to have a 3rd party do it automatically.


Isn't the current password-lock filtering only based on the assigned rating? If so, then this could add a little more value.....For instance, you could ok certain shows, even if they have a higher rating than your "default" rating for the PW/lock.

But, again, will I use this....who knows......,


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

Ok, I don't have kids, and I think this is kinda sucky, (If I were a kid, that's what I'd think.), but I think that there is a growing part of the population that is concerned with the issue to make this prudent on the part of Tivo. 

Yeah, I think we're disappointed because this seems like a step in the wrong direction. i.e. less content not more content, but I'll look at the bright side and say that it probably means that there IS going to be WAY WAY more content available for your TV via IP and Tivo is just positioning itself as making it convienent and easy to use. 

Hopefully the kidzone thing is as easy to use as the tivo itself.


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## DavidS (Sep 27, 2000)

SC0TLANDF0REVER said:


> . . .
> Am I reading it wrong or is there a real choice?


Hard to tell; it sounds from the press release that they might have separate "Suggestions" type lists, one for each organization, that you can select programming from. Of, course, you can also choose not to use either.

My complaint isn't about whether this is forced censorship - it's not. It's about my distaste for the organization TiVo decided to collaborate with, and thereby lend an aura of legitimacy to. After making this choice, TiVo will no longer be a product I recommend.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

So lets think of how this may work. You enter a code to enable KidZone and now the Now Playing list will only show the programs from Season Passes that have KidZone enabled for them. Maybe It only allows viewing of Live TV for channels that were parent-approved, or maybe there's no Live-TV viewing allowed at all. 

I think the PTC's philosophies are horrible as well, but essentially isn't TiVo just going to be recording KidZone Suggestions based on PTC recommendations for kid-safe programming? The shows they recommend will be good for kids....it's just that they have an agenda on which shows to feature.

So we have a 2nd Now Playing list that will record suggestions not based on thumbs, but based on the PTC's suggestions. And probably a lot of the menu items will be removed so kids can't mess up your TiVo (Season Passes, etc).

I think it'll be a great thing for parents. They can have a "Safe Mode" for kids to use the TiVo on their own. I'm not thrilled that TiVo partnered with PTC, but I'm certainly not going to protest and support a different DVR because of it.


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## MasterOfPuppets (Jul 12, 2005)

Excuse me, I too have a MAJOR announcement...

*yawwwwwwnnnnn*


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

It looks like the new service will allow you to select the shows you want your kids to watch without using the ratings organisations. If this is the case then I am all for it. I want to pick the programs my kids watch, not have some organization pick the shows for me.

One thing I do like about this new service is that my kids can be presented with a list of the shows they watch, avoiding problems like having my 2 year old delete a show before I get a chance to watch it. I use parental controls, but that doesn't stop them from accidentally deleting shows, or changing the channel in the middle of a recording.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

briguymaine said:


> My wife and I made a decision before we had our kids to raise them ourselves, meaning not using daycare, nannies, etc. As a family we took a huge paycut, about half of our income, to do this. We limit how much TV our kids watch to about 1 hour for a typical day.


first off - this certainly was no big anouncement, just another feature on the TiVo. 
I will use it but not with lists from either of those groups.
ime will tell if to TiVo it is a big anouncement since it resulted in increased sales.

what I did before this feature
We have an upsatairs bonus room with the "kids" TV and TiVo. The idea is they can go up and play, chill out adn do their own thing. So not wanting them to watch whatever mind rot happens to be on since we are not looking in directly at that time - 
I set up an SD H400 that has minimal controls on the front to hit now playing and play shows. We get together and set up season passes on the TiVo.
Then I took the RF cable from the TiVo to the TV and unhooked it. Only composite from the TiVo to the TV. The front panel does not have controls to change the channel and the TV tuner can not be used either since there is no input. Problem is it did leave whatever the TiVo was tuned to at the last record time. 
I sortof fixd that by having it record a lot of stuff like Full House or Little House on the prairie which is on all the Time  adn my kids liked anyway.

I will put this new feature on that one TiVo but will most likely continue to set the list myself, assuming I read correctly that that is possible with this feature. I imagine I will be blocking out the 700 club and other such family value groups as very unsuitable viewing fare for my impressionable children 

andf then hook up the cable again and put an Xbox on the composite feed


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

briguymaine said:


> My wife and I made a decision before we had our kids to raise them ourselves, meaning not using daycare, nannies, etc. As a family we took a huge paycut, about half of our income, to do this. We limit how much TV our kids watch to about 1 hour for a typical day. We know exactly what they are watching because we are in the house with them! I realize that this isn't feasible for some families, both parents have to work, but it's sad because our kids are precious and are being raised by strangers. <end rant>
> 
> Granted my kids are young, 4 and 2, but if parents are around, paying attention, and involved, there really is no need for this. In my house, we tend to set up season passes for shows that we have previewed and the kids seem interested in. The kids just go to Now Playing and pick what they want to watch.
> 
> I think this is just a marketing tool for Tivo, "we protect your kids because we care". Like I said before, I hope there isn't a lot of ads attached to this. I hope it helps Tivo sell some more boxes and stay alive but it seems like another useless tool.


Thank you so much for saying this... It is my take on things too. It takes active parenting to raise responsible children. Just defaulting to the kids having free-reign with a kidzone tivo is irresonsible, yet many people would see it as an opportunity to parent without the effort.

Setting limits and being involved with your children and helping them understand appropriate programming choices is a much more effective long-term strategy them giving them a box they spend their life trying to defeat.

As I noted in the other thread, I think this is mis-guided direction for TiVo. The bang for the buck is simply not there...


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## headroll (Jan 20, 2003)

I may be reading too much into the flexibility of the new features

_Easily add or subtract specific programs or channels to further customize what is available for children_

But if the content allowed is truly configurable, what's saying you can't use it to just set up preferences for various members of the family (custom channel line-ups, custom Now Playing Lists)?

Wouldn't it be a kick to use KidZone to set-up an completely not kid friendly password protected zone.

-Roll


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

If you haven't' done so, it is interesting to visit the websites of the two organization that TiVo is affiliated with.

It look like Common Sense Media is only a ratings/information web site. They will tell you based on their set of criteria what age group is appropriate for a given show. They don't appear to be involved in trying to control what is on TV. They are just providing information.

PTC is a political organization that is trying to change what is available on TV. They want to actively control what programmers put on TV. I don't agree with this, and TiVo should not affiliate themselves with this organization for this reason. I would think that this affiliation would put TiVo at odds with the networks and advertisers, making it more difficult for TiVo to obtain marketing deals.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

headroll said:


> I may be reading too much into he flexibility of the new features
> 
> _Easily add or subtract specific programs or channels to further customize what is available for children_
> 
> ...


my thought as well, how many configs per TiVo can you do with this kidzone


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## Ingersoll (Jan 15, 2003)

Woohoo! We're partnering with theocratic fascists


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## Stoystown (Jun 13, 2002)

Ingersoll said:


> Woohoo! We're partnering with theocratic fascists


Praise the lord and turn off the "Sex in the City," brother! /sarcasm

This is NOT what Bobby Shaftoe won WWII for!


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

I'm really starting to wonder why Tivo doesn't go all the way and block commercials? I mean should kids really be watching commercials? I think the commercials on kids shows are horrible. I may sound sarcastic, but I'm really serious. We have this great technology available to us and we want what's best for the kids right? So the new rule is all shows in the kids zone are commercial free. Public Service messages are ok.

Edit:

The much loved Thomas Hawk was ahead of me on this one. He writes in his blog the following:



> I would encourage TiVo to push the envelope with this initiative and do something revolutionary that would no doubt enrage Madison Ave. (with whom they have a new love affair with which is why I doubt you will ever see this, but it is still the right thing to do). I would challenge TiVo to turn on a feature in kids mode that automatically fast forwards commercials. I know this is what got Replay sued out of existence but for kids this is in fact something very important.


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## wismile (Sep 11, 2003)

I have DirectTIVO so this doesn't effect me at all.

I will say this to those of you that think this is a meaningless annoucement...*4 MILLION* devoted members of an orginization is a lot of potential new subscribers. I don't know much about the politics involved here...but I did scan the press release and it appears this feature is completely customizable. You have the option of parenting the easy way and trust an organization that most likely is stricter than you...or you can take the time to make the important choices for yourself. I also get the impression that it will help keep the kids away from the shows their parents have recorded, and that's a good thing. I think overall this should help brand TIVO as "family friendly" and get the subscription base up at the same time. Meanwhile...those of you that think it's stupid, don't like the organizations involved, don't have kids or can't understand the real world issues of raising kids can simply choose not to use the new feature. Do I wish the announcement was more spectacular for me? yup...but, this is a big announcement and I hope my TIVO stock gets a little boost from it.


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## briguymaine (Mar 17, 2004)

MasterCephus said:


> **pats you on the back**
> 
> I hear this argument and I appreciate that. But what about single parents who have to work and thus are forced to allow their children to be alone for a time (think latch-key kids)? Do they love thier children less because they can't be with their children 100% of the time as you are able to do?


Thanks for the pat on the back! About what you said above, that is why I said this, "I realize that this isn't feasible for some families, both parents have to work, but it's sad because our kids are precious and are being raised by strangers." I should have mentioned single parents but didn't.



> Let me ask you, how do you control the internet? Each website is considered a station that your child can view, if they only know the channel number (web address). How do you prevent them from going to site you don't want them to go?


My four year old likes to "check the Elmo site" (her words) but that is about it. We set her up at the elmo site and let her have at it. For now there is limited filtering in place but probably in the next year I'll have to turn it on. My router and a browser for Macs called BumperCar make it really easy to control the content. But again, we are around, the computer is in a common area, and she rarely plays on the computer.


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## mbhuff (Jan 25, 2004)

I don't think people fully understand what this is going to be like. The PTC doesn't just rate a program negative because of sex or violence, but also because of their "beliefs". Any show that doesn't promote a positive christian agenda they object to. Merely showing a gay character in a non-negative light on a major show (Frazier a few years back), got the whole show a negative rating.

I'm ashamed that Tivo has decided to partner with PTC and their vision of the future. 

It's one thing to monitor/censor a 5 year old's TV, it's another to monitor/censor a 17 year old. People that follow the PTC treat their 17 year old the same way. I had to deal with those type of sheltered kids when I was in college an tutored. At 18 they had never had to make a decision in their life and were completely lost.


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

If the PTC was the only partner I could see having a problem with this, but letting them be one of the partners does not seam like a big deal to me. 

The way I see it the more partners the better.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Good grief. Do *I* agree with most of what comes out of the PTC? Absolutely not.

Do I give a crap that for those who DO agree, they have the option of using this TIVO feature to find the programs advocated by these groups? Not one whit.

Someday it's quite possible that TIVO may also offer ADULT PROGRAMMING DOWNLOADS for customers who choose to pay and opt-in accordingly... I see this just as the counter to the other.. 

Hardly something worth being upset about. It doesn't affect my TIVO use one bit.

J


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

lajohn27 said:


> Good grief. Do *I* agree with most of what comes out of the PTC? Absolutely not.
> 
> Do I give a crap that for those who DO agree, they have the option of using this TIVO feature to find the programs advocated by these groups? Not one whit.
> 
> ...


I don't think you understand. Most people don't care what shows they do or do like. It's the ways they threaten, lie, and attempt to get shows cancelled that upsets me. I don't care if they think Sesame Street is a bad show for kids. But I do have a problem with TiVo partnering with a company with their reputation. And that has nothing to do with their beliefs.


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

Tivo has partnered with an admitted criminal organization.

Does that make it a little more clear?


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## Okeemike (Apr 24, 2002)

I hear the PTC is pro apple juice. And Milk. And Cereal. 

Let's boycott THOSE products too.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TechDreamer said:


> Tivo has partnered with an admitted criminal organization.


Criminal?

Anyway, the TiVo Blog has a write up on how it will work. It seems so much less sinister once someone explains how it works...

http://blog.tivo.com/


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## ScottNY845 (Feb 4, 2002)

I would rather use condoms and not have kids than have Tivo waste their time with something so usless as this...

And to think there are people out there that say the membership money we pay goes to good use....yea, right, sure, whatever you say....


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## burnsy (Dec 12, 2001)

So will these parental controls FINALLY apply to Showcases and TiVo promotional content?


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## davidmin (Dec 3, 1999)

PTC's latest missive:

Study: Children's TV Studded With Dark Acts

NEW YORK  Children's television is studded with violence, much of it darker and more realistic than when Road Runner dropped an anvil on Wile E. Coyote's head, a watchdog group reported on Thursday.

The Parents Television Council analyzed 444 hours of kids' daytime programs last summer and detailed 2,794 violent incidents, even after sifting out "cartoony" moments. That's 6.3 incidents an hour  more than the PTC found in prime time aimed at adults during a 2002 study.

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2006/03/02/116369-study-childrens-tv-studded-with-dark-acts


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

burnsy said:


> So will these parental controls FINALLY apply to Showcases and TiVo promotional content?


Probably. It sounds like once the TiVo is in kid mode, a password is required to get back to regular mode.


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

And how come Pony or some other Tivo employee post here first like they normally do.

This whole project has the mark of someone new at Tivo.

All in all, I think they probably generated more positive news than negative, despite the cranking on this board. Remember, the majority of people don't know what Tivo is still and probably aren't as opinionated as this board!!

CSM has lots of powerful backers,
PTC is a little more political, who cares as long as tivo doesn't force anyone to use it.

I still think this is major preparation for MUCHO downloaded material. The physician's thing is the same. Download personalized, RELEVANT content. Segment market, make it easy to do, sell ads to targeted audiences.

THAT'S the REAL INITIATIVE.


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## 74opus (Jul 13, 2004)

Well said there Morac !!!! 



morac said:


> A completely pointless addon since TiVo can already filter by ratings and content. All this does is give lazy parents, who don't actually want to manually set up filtering on their TiVo, a way to have a 3rd party do it automatically.
> 
> Basically it's another example of letting someone else parent your kids while at the same time making yourself seem like a better parent.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ScottNY845 said:


> I would rather use condoms and not have kids ...


good plan


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

peteypete said:


> And how come Pony or some other Tivo employee post here first like they normally do.
> 
> This whole project has the mark of someone new at Tivo.


Pony has had extensive involvement in this, and the only reason he isn't posting here is because he flew out to New York yesterday to prepare the presentation and demos for the press conference. I don't want to speak for him, but I also don't want you to get the wrong idea.

I posted my personal view, as a parent, at my blog (http://www.zeigen.com/blog).


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

morac said:


> A completely pointless addon since TiVo can already filter by ratings and content. All this does is give lazy parents, who don't actually want to manually set up filtering on their TiVo, a way to have a 3rd party do it automatically.
> 
> Basically it's another example of letting someone else parent your kids while at the same time making yourself seem like a better parent.
> 
> It's definately not something to get excited about.


Very good summary. For some reason public perception is that TV is evil for children. Parental control and limiting hours children can watch TV seem to be the thing to do. Letting children decide what they like is almost a crime. Based on my own experience, if you rase your kids right, you don't have any problems with TV. Your kids will not watch junk, but you may end up watching some of the shows they found with them because you will find them interesting. My son was always TV junkie. His addiction started out with "Dumbo Circus" and continues now. He watched at least 4 hours of TV daily. Sometimes people don't realize how much information is on TV. My son knew all about current news and he learned more about history from TV than from the high school. Negative impact of too much TV? He graduated from high school as valedictorian, graduated from college in one year, got admitted to Duke medical school at age of 18 and is now in England at Oxford on Marshall scholarship working on his PhD at British Government expense. How many PTC censored kids accomplished that much? My daughter watches TV when she feels like it. She is in high school and she is also straight A student. You don't censor TV for kids, you let them decide what they want to watch. If you rased your kids right, they will make better decision than you can. If you didn't, they'll get in trouble with or without TV program filters. Same applies to internet. I never ever restricted my children computers from any web sites (except for internet security reasons). And guess what? They are really proficient in using internet with no negative side effects. And they are much less likely to get in trouble by going to wrong web sites later in their life. TV doesn't teach kids what is right or wrong - parents do. If you outsource your parental responsiblity to somebody like PTC, you are going to regret it later.
As for this TiVo upgrade, I will be really pissed if it kills my TiVo. We all know that every upgrade kills some small number of units. To have TiVo killed for the upgrade like this will make me cancel service on my series 2 on the spot.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Samo, that's really uncalled for. Pony and I have treated you with the highest respect, but if you continue to make personal insults against a good friend of mine, I'm going to personally put you on permanent ignore.
> 
> Can I at least ask you to watch the demo and review the features before you cast judgment? There's far more to this set of features than morac's summary.
> 
> I like Thomas Hawk's view on it -- please give http://www.thomashawk.com/ a read.


Well, I think most parents will appreciate the effort that KidZone offers. Even if they don't want to participate, it is a good feature to sell parents a TiVo on. I think some of the partners are very questionable however.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Ghey.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

(Some editing of stuff here between me and Samo, apologies if the conversation doesn't make sense any more)

Samo and others, can I at least ask you to watch the demo and review the features before you cast judgment? There's far more to this set of features than morac's summary.

I like Thomas Hawk's view on it -- please give http://www.thomashawk.com/ a read.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Samo, that's really uncalled for.


So true.

Stephen, you know I am fully capable of being critical of TiVo, and while I was initially less than thrilled about this announcement (mostly because I was hoping for a video download service), I think it is a nice addition to the service. I have not seen the demo yet, but I've been looking at the photos that have been posted on the web, and I read Nova's description, as well as various blogs and articles, and I can see this is another well-implemented, well thought-out bit of TiVo software. I think it is a worthwhile feature to add to the service, and a good business decision to pursue it. I can also see other applications for the same technology.

Despite what some people think about it, I think a lot of less-than-perfect parents raising less-than-perfect children in this less-than-perfect world will like the idea of allowing their kids pick what programs they want to watch without worrying about them dipping into an episode of Robot Chicken or Mom and Dad's latest Skinemax soft core "mood setter."


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Bottom-line: I am going to guess, Samo, that you're not a parent, and, further I wil assert that you're not basing your opinions on seeing the actual demo and reviewing the full breadth of these features.
> 
> I urge you to keep an open mind and not cast judgment.


 You are wrong about me not being a parent. I managed to rase 2 kids that I'm really proud off. I'll check out the demo, but whole concept of censoring TV programming for kids is wrong to begin with. Regardless how good of the implementation TiVo has, this feature was not needed and will not get you any new subs.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

samo said:


> You are wrong about me not being a parent. I managed to rase 2 kids that I'm really proud off. I'll check out the demo, but whole concept of censoring TV programming for kids is wrong to begin with. Regardless how good of the implementation TiVo has, this feature was not needed and will not get you any new subs.


Congrats on the two kids! Sorry I made a bad guess.

Don't think of it as censoring TV programming for kids. Think of it as an optional set of features to help you:

1) Cordon off the programming you record for yourself so that your kids don't see it and can't watch it.

2) Select programs that are age-appropriate for your kids.

3) Make it easier for your kids to use your TiVo DVRs.

Personally, I'm excited. I urge you to check it out. This is a free feature for all Series2 standalone subscribers. Even if you don't like it, you don't have to use it.

Will it get us more subscribers? Well, we think it will, and we have market research to help convince us of that, but ultimately if you don't believe me, time will tell.

Thanks for your thoughts, Samo.

Best regards,
Stephen


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

Is it unfair to your kids if you subject their tv viewing to the will of some (perhaps questionable) group while you yourself watch other shows that the same group disapproves of ?

There's a word for that !

Go to their web sites and see how many of your favorites would be disallowed. You'll be surprised.


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## J4yDubs (Jul 3, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> good plan


LOL. I was trying to think of something safe to say, but that's perfect.

John


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

I think Stephen (tivoopsmgr) is mistaken when he states on his blog...

"As far the PTC goes, Im not a fan of their boycott campaigns, but cmon, if this organization does approve of a show for your kid, you can bet it doesnt have any objectionable content. If you choose to use their recommendations that doesnt mean in any way that you endorse their politics or methods"

In fact using their suggestions does indeed endorse their politics. Here's a bit of logic for ya: You have to remember PTC are only recommending shows that push their agenda. Therefore less people might watch a show that doesn't appear on these 'suggestions'. The networks may then decide to cancel a show, or not air a particular episode, because less possible viewers means less advertising revenue.

Seems pretty clear to me, and that's why these organizations have pull.

I'm surprised by stephen's comment.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Don't think of it as censoring TV programming for kids. Think of it as an optional set of features to help you:
> 
> 1) Cordon off the programming you record for yourself so that your kids don't see it and can't watch it.
> 
> ...


Believe it or not I never had any programs recorded on any of my DVRs that I wouldn't let my kids to watch (some programs could require me watching show with them). As for age appropriate, my kids never recoded any show that they didn't like and somehow they selected shows that were appropriate for their age. And believe it or not my kids learned to use TiVo way before my wife did.  Honestly, this upgrade doesn't do anything for me and would not do anything for me even when my kids were 6 years younger (first time they were introduced to TiVo). You can not and do not need to protect your kids from real world. And you don't need to protect them from TV. Our government does enough ridiculous things, like sending 18 year old to the war, but not letting him have a beer. You need to teach your kids that hypocrisy is wrong from the very early age, then you will not have to worry about them watching things that you don't approve. I never had to tell my kids not to watch religious 1-800-send-me-money garbage nor did I have to tell them that shows like Bachelor border prostitution.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

Stu_Bee said:


> I think Stephen (tivoopsmgr) is mistaken when he states on his blog...


Stu-bee, it's probably better to respond to my personal opinions about PTC on my blog there rather here. I can't really respond here since you're talking about my personal opinions.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Stu-bee, it's probably better to respond to my personal opinions about PTC on my blog there rather here. I can't really respond here since you're talking about my personal opinions.


Yeah..I understand the gray area. However, I thought of it as fair game since you posted a link to your blog comments here, posted a link to another protivo blog about the announcement...but we are not supposed to comment on those here 
I see you've been posting updates on your blog, so I'll keep an eye out.


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## roadkillrampage (Mar 3, 2006)

I have been a lurker on tivocommunity for many years and this is my first posting. 

While this announcement does not impress me I hope it will attract some more to buy TiVo. 

I have had TiVo since it came out. I currently have 4 series 1 TiVo's which are still going strong. 

While I would like to get a series 2 for its slimmer appearance I won't. Why? All 4 of my series 1 TiVo's are hacked with enhancements. The enhancements that the TiVo community have made are far better then features/enhancements the folks at TiVo have made. 

What are some of the innovative features that the TiVo community has come up with? 

* TiVo Web - Using this can connect to the TiVo from your computer and schedule programs or control your TiVo like you were using your TiVo remote as well as a few more things. Many more features then using the TiVo web site to schedule programs. 

* TiVo dailymail - This will e-mail you on a user selected frequency what programs are going to record, what programs are going to expire and other information. 

There are many more, some useful and some not so useful. 

Why haven't the folks at TiVo embraced these TiVo community made features? Perhaps if they did use some of these community created enhancements they would attract more loyalty and perhaps attract those who want to see their features on their own TiVo or rolled out to every TiVo. From my perspective the folks at TiVo have turned their back on the early adopters. What happened to TiVo's Richard Bullwinkel who was at one time the official TiVo ear to all the TiVo owners. Official TiVo presence is non-existent now. 

If the folks reading this have not looked at some of the other message threads here on tivocommunity I encourage you to do so. Take a look at the Underground Playground section particularly at the TiVo Upgrade Center and TiVo Underground. Read and see some of the enhancements that the TiVo community has come up with. If you see a cool enhancement that you might want in your TiVo then send TiVo an email. Tell TiVo that you want this feature included in a future software release. 

Please note that none of these enhancements include theft of the TiVo service or the extraction of programs that do not use TiVo2go.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Negative impact of too much TV? He graduated from high school as valedictorian, graduated from college in one year, got admitted to Duke medical school at age of 18 and is now in England at Oxford on Marshall scholarship working on his PhD at British Government expense. How many PTC censored kids accomplished that much?


What's your point exactly? If you don't want to use the filter, don't do it.

Yours is the most moronic arguments against this that I've seen so far.



> Believe it or not I never had any programs recorded on any of my DVRs that I wouldn't let my kids to watch


.. and on and on about how samo uses his TiVo.

Well, why didn't you say so! Obviously, TiVo's business should be based on how samo uses his DVR!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Dmon4u said:


> Is it unfair to your kids if you subject their tv viewing to the will of some (perhaps questionable) group while you yourself watch other shows that the same group disapproves of ?
> 
> There's a word for that !


Yeah, a parent. Or do you feel that adults should always watch the same stuff that childen watch, and vice versa? Of course it's not unfair that an adult can record and watch "Audition" while at the same time not wanting their 4-year old child to have access to that movie.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

Stu_Bee said:


> Yeah..I understand the gray area. However, I thought of it as fair game since you posted a link to your blog comments here, posted a link to another protivo blog about the announcement...but we are not supposed to comment on those here
> I see you've been posting updates on your blog, so I'll keep an eye out.


Fair point, there is some overlap (especially in pointers). But for my personal opinions and responses to posts that I make in my own blog, it's better there rather than here. I think it's one thing to post a pointer and another thing to move the conversation from one place to another. I'm new to the blogging thing, so I'll have to think more about it, but when I post here in this forum I don't really have the ability to talk about my opinions about a particular organization like the PTC.


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## DavidS (Sep 27, 2000)

Okeemike said:


> I hear the PTC is pro apple juice. And Milk. And Cereal.
> 
> Let's boycott THOSE products too.


If my favorite applejuice/milk/cereal brand entered into a marketing campaign that supported and tended to legitimize a distasteful organization like PTC, I would, indeed, boycott them. Wouldn't you?


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

MickeS said:


> Yeah, a parent. Or do you feel that adults should always watch the same stuff that childen watch, and vice versa? Of course it's not unfair that an adult can record and watch "Audition" while at the same time not wanting their 4-year old child to have access to that movie.


I wonder why some people don't seem to understand that these groups are not just making choices just for children but for a long time now, they have also been doing so for all of us adults. Their childrens choices are not the same as those for adults. They've issued separate reports.

My point, again, is that you will let these people choose childrens shows for your children but not adult shows for you !

Check out http://www.parentstv.org/Guide/FG/WeeklyPrintable.asp for a list of shows approved for Adults and shows also for children.

for their recent comments on Kids shows http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186670,00.html

Do you watch any of those bad shows ?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> .. and on and on about how samo uses his TiVo.
> 
> Well, why didn't you say so! Obviously, TiVo's business should be based on how samo uses his DVR!


OK. I will say so. * Tivo's business should be based on how samo uses his DVR* because he was one of the first people who recognized TiVo as a great innovation and spent a lot of money to be one of the first to buy it. There are millions of parents like him who are proud of the way they rase their kids and they don't care about PTC or other morons telling them what shows to watch on their TV. TiVo should listen to people like samo and give them things like FSI instead of useless features, because they have been more effective in promoting TiVo than millions of dollars that TiVo spent on advertisement.


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## TBoyd (Apr 9, 2000)

I actually agree with the apparent intent of this new functionality, which is to offer functionality on Tivo that would allow parents to manage the viewing habits of their children. And in the process allow Tivo to widen their subscriber base by addressing subscriber groups that may be outside of the technology mainstream and prefer more control over how technology affects their lives. --- Why not allow Blue State parents, Red State parents, Martian parents, Religious parents, Agnostic parents and others to have more control over the box, while letting everyone else see EVERYTHING? 

However, I believe that this laudable parenting assistance goal could have been better served by offering up a open development standard and offering free hosting space for viewing lists from all political/cultural groups that wish to offer their particular viewpoint on TV viewing, children or adult, to grass roots viewers that agree with their agendas. Maybe even a list that each household could download and edit on their personal Tivo.

We MUST separate the technology from politics here. The fact that Tivo aligned itself with ANY political pressure group, conservative, liberal or mainstream is sad. Tivo is, and should be a technology company only. 

Cynically, I might suppose that this is Tivos marketing play for the American religious marketplace; good on them. Let Tivo serve all the market, and survive. Theyll be around to serve me too, while I watch EVERYTHING I want.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Most of the comments except the one mentioning my name have been editted, but apparently I encited something. After reading more about KidZone, it does sound like it is more than I made it out to be so I apologize for trashing it without first seeing it and causing some kind of flame war. 

That said it would be easier to understand if there was a demo everyone could see (flash maybe?) because as it is now, it sounds like a combination of the V-Chip and The Tivolution showcase (kid shows) except that instead of TiVo recommending what kid shows are good you have some 3rd party public interest groups picking the shows.

Even if KidZone gives parents the final say over what type of shows are recommended and not recommended, I have a feeling many parents will just set it up and let the two third party groups pick the shows their kids should watch. Though I hope this isn't the case.

In any case whatever it looks like, I hope it can be turned off.


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## sixseven (Jan 6, 2005)

TechDreamer said:


> Let's forget the ratings council stupidity stuff for a minute and just think about what a stupid waste of resources this was at Tivo. I got rid of my Series 2 Tivos when Tivo would not fix the pixellation at channel change problem. I thought to myself that Tivo just did not have the resources to fix problems with the software. Now lets fast forward to this new "Feature" and the amount of manpower Tivo put into it. What a waste. Please tell me there are people at Tivo who are as baffled by this feature as we are. I'm sure there was some eye rolling when this became a priority at Tivo..


I may be the only the only person here that thinks this was a brilliant move by Tivo. They have just given their passionate (sometimes fanatical) customer/fan base an impulse reason to buy a series 3 Tivo.

_Here's the scene:_

*[A young couple with children are walking through WorstBuy]*

*Husband*: Oooh! Honey, we should really get the new Tivo that just came out.

*Wife*: Ummmm, don't we already have a Tivo? What wrong with the one we have?

*Husband*: Well, it's an older one, and it doesn't support HD. This new one will be better for the plasma TV you gave me last Christmas.

*Wife*: I don't know, I mean if we already have something that works, why should be buy another one of the same thing? It looks fine to me, when I use it...

*Husband*: Yeah... *[he quickly scans his brain for another argument]* You know Tivos now have this new "Kidzone" feature. It helps filter adult content and channels for children. We c-o-u-l-d set up our existing Tivo in the kid's playroom for them to use, which would make our lives easier. And then we would make sense to buy this new one...

*Wife*: You really want this thing don't you...

*Husband*: Yeah... *[with a sheepish grin]*

*Wife*: Alright, but you better have the old one set up in the playroom first, and you better clean up after yourself, and it's time to clean the rain gutters, don't you think?

*[The husband lifts the S3 Tivo Box into their oversized blue cart, and they head toward the register.]*

----------------------------------

Remember, if a business strategy doesn't appeal to you personally, you might not be the target audience...


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## jimmymac (Nov 6, 2002)

While I think that parents should use all the tools available to them, I really am bothered by Tivo's choice to use PTC's recommendations in this new feature. 

PTC actively campaigns to have most of the television programs I choose to watch removed from the airways. While I personally have no use for V-chips, ratings, etc. I do recognize they are useful tools for parents. While in theory this Kid Zone feature sounds like another tool that parents can use, Tivo alligning with PTC as a arbiter of what is good TV for anybody, however, is something that is going to make me re-evaluate my choice to subscribe to Tivo's service.

If PTC had their way, I'd have basically no reason to subscribe to Tivo since there would be very little on TV I'd want to watch.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TBoyd said:


> However, I believe that this laudable parenting assistance goal could have been better served by offering up a open development standard and offering free hosting space for viewing lists from all political/cultural groups that wish to offer their particular viewpoint on TV viewing, children or adult, to grass roots viewers that agree with their agendas. Maybe even a list that each household could download and edit on their personal Tivo.


I think this is coming -- all of it except the "open" part. With this feature and two additional features we know are coming (wishlist sharing (for want of a better term) and internet downloads), TiVo can quite nicely offer personalization and content for many many "long tail" (niche) markets. The TV/film market can be segmented in many ways, and TiVo can provide features that allow people to choose content from a variety niches and really enrich their viewing experience. The current search feature is great, but much more powerful tools based on community and collaborative selection are possible.

But, as a company that has a responsibility to its shareholders (and the SEC, FCC, etc.), it can't ever be truly "open." TiVo has to filter and exculde illegal material, racist propaganda, hate speech, etc.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Samo and others, can I at least ask you to watch the demo and review the features before you cast judgment? There's far more to this set of features than morac's summary.


Where can we see this demo?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

samo said:


> TiVo should listen to people like samo and give them things like FSI instead of useless features


I think something like KidZone as a sales argument would appeal to more people than a FSI would.

"You can also set up a separate area for your kids, based on your own criteria, or based on predetermined ratings by age group. These pretedermined ratings are provided by two well-known organizations."

vs

"You can also see how much free space you have left."


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## TBoyd (Apr 9, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> I think this is coming -- all of it except the "open" part. ...
> 
> But, as a company that has a responsibility to its shareholders (and the SEC, FCC, etc.), it can't ever be truly "open." TiVo has to filter and exculde illegal material, racist propaganda, hate speech, etc.


Sure, they have a responsiblility to 'protect' users from language at the U.I. and any messaging from a program running on Tivo, but all these lists would do is approve or deny access to certain programming via whatever their 'flag' tool is, and this list, with any "bad" language wouldn't be displayed at the general U.I. level.

When I say "open" I mean a standard that any group can use to develop a list, WITHOUT Tivo's involvement. This removes Tivo from the political "********".

All this being said without me having seen the U.I. or functional specification.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TBoyd said:


> Sure, they have a responsiblility to 'protect' users from language at the U.I. and any messaging from a program running on Tivo, but all these lists would do is approve or deny access to certain programming via whatever their 'flag' tool is, and this list, with any "bad" language wouldn't be displayed at the general U.I. level.


Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I was including the possibility of internet downloads in my discussion. There isn't much you'd have to filter out of the current mainstream distribution channels, no matter how you mix and match it, but if you include broadband video you have no such security. While I would like to see access to video through my TiVo be completely open, I don't think TiVo should or would host lists of the best terrorist training videos, Nazi propaganda, racist diatribes, violence inciting anarchists, etc. While these may be legitimately called niche markets, and could potentially provide subscribers, it would be very dangerous for TiVo to be seen as providing support for groups whose extremist views could generate a backlash against the company. One could argue that this material has certain legitimate uses in education, research, news, etc., but it can be accessed in other ways, and there is no reason for TiVo to risk being associated with it or seen as advocating it. TiVo's responsibility is to try to make money for its investors, not wield the sword of free speech.

Edit: Note that I am making a distinction here between hosting broadband video (which TiVo may or may not do), and hosting lists of content deemed interesting to some group. I am assuming that TiVo will choose host the latter (though an open system in which TiVo simply provides the interface and people can find their own lists is kind of intriguing. Maybe we will see this in the future.)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jimmymac said:


> While I think that parents should use all the tools available to them, I really am bothered by Tivo's choice to use PTC's recommendations in this new feature.
> 
> PTC actively campaigns to have most of the television programs I choose to watch removed from the airways. While I personally have no use for V-chips, ratings, etc. I do recognize they are useful tools for parents. While in theory this Kid Zone feature sounds like another tool that parents can use, Tivo alligning with PTC as a arbiter of what is good TV for anybody, however, is something that is going to make me re-evaluate my choice to subscribe to Tivo's service.
> 
> If PTC had their way, I'd have basically no reason to subscribe to Tivo since there would be very little on TV I'd want to watch.


again - this is off the mark by a mile.

TiVo is not aligning itself with PTC - TiVo anounced a new faeature that would accept the filter list from PTC *if the person ACTIVELY chooses it*
otherwise there is no kidzone filter happening at all or if it is turned on - you make a choice to use one of the two currently provided lists or make a list all of your own.

TiVo is not making PTC tell you what to watch anymore than TiVo is making some show come on some channel at 8pm. Y


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jimmymac's point, which I agree with and which is my single complaint about this KidZone venture, is that by giving PTC recognition as a sort of "official" TiVo partner they (inadvertantly?) embolden and legitimize PTC's other efforts, which include influencing the legislature about more strict regulations regarding content that is currently unregulated, and putting pressure on networks and advertisers.

While PTC should certainly be free to use their democratic means to push their agenda, I can see why some don't want their monthly TiVo fee to contribute to their organization, be it more symbolically then financially.

Personally, I paid lifetime years ago so I don't have any qualms about it.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Hey everyone,

Back from New York. The press event went great, it was very well attended, and as noted here the new KidZone feature has garnered a lot of interest and press.

It's been interesting to see the range of discussion here, starting from "Lame lame lame" to "Hey, there's more to this than I thought" and "Maybe they're not targeting this at me". Some people are starting to see that this is much larger than a new techy widget. It's about providing choice and tools to parents, and introducing TiVo to people who might not have considered it yet (or...who have considered it and decided it was just a techy gadget). 

There are three basic things being offered with KidZone:

* Kids get their own space. Kids get their own Now Playing List, and their own list of Live TV channels. Parents will never walk into the room and be surprised by what their children are watching. Kids will only see kid stuff, whether it's in Now Playing or live. And parents don't have to worry about the kids accidentally deleting their episode of CSI or Sunday's football game...the parents recordings are safe. Getting out of KidZone is as simple as typing in a four digit password.

* Parents get to choose. The parent can decide exactly what shows up and what doesn't. Ratings are used as a starting baseline, but parents can override the ratings and hide/allow any program or channel. Our research (and yes, we've done a lot of research on this) shows that parents not only don't understand the ratings systems (TV, Movies, Content...some actually do believe FV stands for Family Viewing), they don't trust the ratings systems either. Ratings simply don't factor in attitude. Every parent has a particular show that bugs them...Angelica is too mean...DW uses the word 'stupid'...SpongeBob is just wrong. In each case it comes down to a personal value, an opinion, attitude. Parents know what is right for their household. And the ratings don't always reflect that. So we give the final authority to the parent. They get to choose.

* Help parents find the good stuff. All of the existing "parental controls" systems not only mystify parents with their complexity, they're all about blocking the bad stuff. KidZone helps parents find the good stuff. The first two partners we've announced will offer weekly recommendations of programming for kids and families, including information on why they recommend a particular program. They're lists of shows...parents have the option to either browse the list and pick and choose what you want, or if you find an organization that you trust, you can sign up for their complete list, automatically recorded every week. You have all of the same recording options you have with a Season Pass...so you can decide how much of your disk to devote to an organization's recommendations. And you'll be able to browse the lists and schedule recordings from either a broadband connected DVR or from TiVo.com. 

Reading the posts I see that everyone has an opinion, and that's fine. KidZone is an optional feature. If you don't care for a particular organization, don't use their recommendations. If you don't have kids, you probably won't use this...at least not today. Someday you may want to though. And the HD box is still coming, the Comcast service is still coming...everything else is moving along just fine. Don't fret.  

We've spent a tremendous amount of effort over the years to make TiVo a product that everyone in the family can use. We realized early on that if it was something that only the geek in the family felt comfortable with, we'd lose. KidZone follows in that tradition, allowing parents to customize their TiVo DVR to serve up the best television for their kids. KidZone will be out to all Series2 subscribers in June...that's the target.

Now, I'm actually off work today. It's been a very long week, and our flight back from New York was delayed last night due to weather. I took the day off to spend with my daughter...so I'm off now to be a good parent. 

Cheers,
Pony


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TiVoPony, it would be interesting to hear your comments on how and why PTC came to be one of the 2 partners that TiVo chose to provide the ratings/suggestions for the KidZone, and your thoughts about what this affiliation means for their efforts in other areas, if anything.

Thanks for the summary of the functionality, by the way. I'm pretty sure I will end up using it.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

MickeS said:


> TiVoPony, it would be interesting to hear your comments on how and why PTC came to be one of the 2 partners that TiVo chose to provide the ratings/suggestions for the KidZone, and your thoughts about what this affiliation means for their efforts in other areas, if anything.
> 
> Thanks for the summary of the functionality, by the way. I'm pretty sure I will end up using it.


I think Tom Rogers summed it up nicely yesterday. He was asked if TiVo shared PTC's view on x, y, or z.

Tom's response: It's not about what TiVo thinks. Our personal thoughts or beliefs don't factor into it...we're about providing choice. We're a conduit for information, not the decision makers.

I look at it as similar to my cable company. There are a lot of channels I receive that I don't watch. Some that I really find inappropriate. But do I cancel my cable service as a result? Nope. I just don't watch those channels. I realize that the cable company offers content that appeals to a broader range of people than just Bob Pony. Same thing with magazines or newspapers.

So, why PTC? Why Common Sense Media?

I noted above that parental controls today are about blocking the bad stuff, not finding the good stuff. We also have found that there actually aren't that many organizations that recommend good programming for families or children. They're the two that are currently offering recommendations. Most other organizations are in fact using data supplied by one of these two groups. But they're just the start...as we find other organizations that have information to share with parents we can add them in. But in the end it's about choice. We're not here to censor or dictate. What's right for your household isn't right for mine, and vice versa.

As far as whether this means anything for efforts in other areas...nope, not to my knowledge. It's just about providing information to parents about programming they'll enjoy with their kids.

Cheers,
Pony
(typing as his daughter hovers behind him saying "let's go!")


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> KidZone is an optional feature. If you don't care for a particular organization, don't use their recommendations.


 Again, Pony, the irony is you've partnered with an organization that doesn't believe in that VERY BASIC TENENT.

PTC believes in getting programming OFF THE AIR, not "if you don't care for it, change the channel."

It's a stange philosophy for Tivo to have ANYTHING to do with and it's a stated goal of the PTC: to RID television of programming it doesn't approve of.

I can understand partnering with a company that doesn't LIKE certain programming or wants more parental CONTROL -- which the new feature seems to very nicely do and I applaud it.

I cannot understand partnering with a company intent on ELIMINATING certain programming, especially one with such obvious political and religious undertones.

What one of PTC's stated goals is seems to run VERY contrary to what I thought Tivo believed, TV choice. They don't want to FILTER -- though they will happily take the credibility and press from a Tivo partnership. They want to ELIMINATE.

They don't believe in options. It makes you statement VERY ironic. And sad.

_ITV


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> I think Tom Rogers summed it up nicely yesterday. He was asked if TiVo shared PTC's view on x, y, or z.
> 
> Tom's response: It's not about what TiVo thinks. Our personal thoughts or beliefs don't factor into it...we're about providing choice. We're a conduit for information, not the decision makers.
> 
> I look at it as similar to my cable company. There are a lot of channels I receive that I don't watch. Some that I really find inappropriate. But do I cancel my cable service as a result? Nope. I just don't watch those channels. I realize that the cable company offers content that appeals to a broader range of people than just Bob Pony. Same thing with magazines or newspapers.


Except PTC wants to cancel those channels forever. And it IS about what Tivo thinks. If the KKK had a list, Tivo would NOT partner with them. It's a wishy-washy answer.

You've partnered with a company that believes in ELIMINATING choice, ELIMINATING programming.

And if Tivo doesn't believe in corporate responsibility, in making morally responsible decisions, I'd be SHOCKED. The "personal beliefs" had better play a part. And Tivo should be the LAST company that partners with someone who believes in eliminating choice.

If Tivo will allow ANY organization with a filter to be a member of the program, let it say so. I doubt it. It certainly WILL exercise discretion. By pretending no line exists and Tivo has no "personal beliefs" is not a real answer. There IS a real line but Tom isn't willing to address the issue.

Your providing choice with an organizaiton that doesn't believe in providing choice.

Very ironic and again, very sad.

_ITV

P.S. not aimed at YOU. Please, not shooting the messenger.


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

I would assume that Pony is very important to the operations of Tivo and therefore I find it very sad that Tivo chose to use his resources for this project. Pony and others at Tivo have emphasized how hard they worked on this project and that is exactly what is wrong with it. I disagree with Pony's point that all the other projects are moving along just fine, they are not. This new kidzone thing is a fine feature, but i do not understand how this jumped to the front of the list. Tivo has so many other things that need work, heck they can't even figure out how email works!


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

*TiVo + Cable Box*

How do you control what is available via LiveTV when the TiVo is connected to a cable box?

Why was this designed as a kids only feature instead of a generalized ability to have multiple users on one TiVo, with the ability to do all the kid friendly things therein?

Why do we have to pick a single narrow age range for our kids when we might have several kids of wide age ranges, and the generalized multiuser feature above would accomodate that?

Why was it decided to announce this at this time? If this is an effort to get more cable partners, why was the announcement not made when a new partner(s) was available on stage? Why were no Comcast execs on stage?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TechDreamer said:


> This new kidzone thing is a fine feature, but i do not understand how this jumped to the front of the list.


There is a point here that a lot of people seem to miss. You don't understand because you are not inside TiVo, with full access to all of the information TiVo's management has. We've pretty well established that nothing they do is going to make everyone happy, so they have to look at their situation and allocate their resources where management believe they will do the most good. Why this feature? Well, we know that one of the key strategic directions they are pursuing is product differentation. Maybe market research showed that this was a factor that could significantly influence sales. Maybe it was just that simple. Or maybe it didn't jump to the front of the list, maybe it is just the next thing that is ready to test. Or maybe Comcast asked them to announce the feature now so they'd have something to placate Congress or the FCC.

The point is, we don't know. You can like the feature or not, but to say that it was a misallocation of resources is to claim that you know far more about the situation than you actually do.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

TechDreamer said:


> I would assume that Pony is very important to the operations of Tivo and therefore I find it very sad that Tivo chose to use his resources for this project. Pony and others at Tivo have emphasized how hard they worked on this project and that is exactly what is wrong with it. I disagree with Pony's point that all the other projects are moving along just fine, they are not. This new kidzone thing is a fine feature, but i do not understand how this jumped to the front of the list. Tivo has so many other things that need work, heck they can't even figure out how email works!


TechDreamer, Pony's a talented guy and can multi-task with the best of 'em. He's telling the truth when he says this project does not affect the others -- there's no overlap between the people working on KidZone versus, say, the Series3. It's VERY difficult for an outsider to understand the tradeoffs and priorities. You don't have access to our market research. You don't see all of our user testing results. You don't know how many resources we have available, what they're capable of accomplishing, and the schedules and budgets and ROI involved.

Hey, I like to play armchair CEO too. But there are an awful lot of assumptions being made in your post.

But the main reason I posted -- what do you mean we can't figure out how e-mail works? If there's a problem, let me know, so my team can fix it. Thanks!

EDIT: Posted before I saw ChuckyBox's similar post. Thunder stolen...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> EDIT: Posted before I saw ChuckyBox's similar post. Thunder stolen...


Eh, nobody reads my stuff anyway.


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## neekoh (Jan 2, 2005)

TiVoPony says:
"They're lists of shows...parents have the option to either browse the list and pick and choose what you want, or if you find an organization that you trust, you can sign up for their complete list, automatically recorded every week. "

Does this mean that a TiVo will be able to pull in any 'organization' list? If so, this is a nice feature for sharing -- say the Emmy Awards or my friend's list of shows. 
Also, if this is true, then KidZone wouldn't be just for kids, it's sounds like an advanced filtering function.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

Well said "InteractiveTV"....I'm with you.

I'm hoping that Tivo just didn't think it completely through on the possible validation of PTC this provides, or was unaware of PTC's stance and affiliations.
Because the opposite thought is that Tivo was aware, and either didn't care, or decided upon the profits this may bring in over the ethics of the situation.


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## TBoyd (Apr 9, 2000)

Although InteractiveTV is possibly a bit animated about his point, I have to agree that saying that PTC recommend(s) good programming for families or children is rather like saying that Mussolini made the trains run on time. ----- I might add, when you lie down with dogs, you may wake up with fleas. 

The political/cultural linkage/fallout here was avoidable and HAS distracted from the benefits of this new initiative; very sad. 

However, like others here, I hope that when the full vision of the initiative is considered (it sounds like an advanced filtering function) theyll be able to bow gracefully at the applause. 

Tim


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Stu_Bee said:


> Because the opposite thought is that Tivo was aware, and either didn't care, or decided upon the profits this may bring in over the ethics of the situation.


If TiVo's management has to make a choice between profits and some people's vague notion of "ethics," they damn well better choose profits. Because if they don't, their shareholders are going to sue them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TechDreamer said:


> I would assume that Pony is very important to the operations of Tivo and therefore I find it very sad that Tivo chose to use his resources for this project. Pony and others at Tivo have emphasized how hard they worked on this project and that is exactly what is wrong with it. I disagree with Pony's point that all the other projects are moving along just fine, they are not. This new kidzone thing is a fine feature, but i do not understand how this jumped to the front of the list. Tivo has so many other things that need work, heck they can't even figure out how email works!


Pony's job is as a project manager and high level spokesman for just such things as new features. I imagine he has a part in the hardware related project of series 3 but also many more people will as well on something of that size.

Comcast is a software port - not a new project - again peripheral involvement.

and if TiVo delivers the sereis 3 in the second half of the year then that is what they were targeting to begin with.

but perhaps you can share that concern at the next projects status meeting since it seems you attend those.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

neekoh said:


> TiVoPony says:
> "They're lists of shows...parents have the option to either browse the list and pick and choose what you want, or if you find an organization that you trust, you can sign up for their complete list, automatically recorded every week. "
> 
> Does this mean that a TiVo will be able to pull in any 'organization' list? If so, this is a nice feature for sharing -- say the Emmy Awards or my friend's list of shows.
> Also, if this is true, then KidZone wouldn't be just for kids, it's sounds like an advanced filtering function.


that is where they are headed for sure.

Ironically it may be a way for TiVo to introduce downloaded adult content and allow the end user to make sure only adults see it.


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

TBoyd said:


> Although InteractiveTV is possibly a bit animated about his point, I have to agree that saying that PTC recommend(s) good programming for families or children is rather like saying that Mussolini made the trains run on time. ----- I might add, when you lie down with dogs, you may wake up with fleas.
> 
> The political/cultural linkage/fallout here was avoidable and HAS distracted from the benefits of this new initiative; very sad.
> 
> ...


I've tried to avoid these threads recently because of the very heated nature of the rhetoric that is generated, and I'm a bit of a hothead myself. For instance the comment about Mussolini is dangerously close to invoking Godwin's law. 

I fail to see where TiVo's business decision validates PTC's politics or makes it any more likely that PTC is going to influence Congress or the FCC; quite the reverse in fact. PTC is not being given a monopoly, there are other choices, and if other companies come along offering these services, TiVo can partner with them, too.

Why I think this is good is that it in effect forces PTC to "put up or shut up"; as more people use TiVo's service, PTC's efforts to silence others will become irrelevent; the FCC or Congress can simply point out that thanks to PTC's partnership with TiVo, parents already have a way to protect their children from objectionable content, and therefore PTC is barking up the wrong tree.

It is a diversion to talk about PTC's desire to censor TV content as though it had the power to put its fondest wishes into practice as actual law, when it in fact has no such power; the *only* legal thread the PTC had to hang on to when making its complaints was the "protect the children" thread; this new technology takes that excuse away from PTC, or will once the technology is in general use. PTC may have a theocratic agenda it is secretly pushing, but it can only legally push parts of it using the "for the children" excuse; its "real" theocratic agenda has no legal standing at all. Without the "for the children" excuse, PTC has nothing.

In other words, PTC will be hoist by their own petard. :up:

So frankly I'm not worried about "Mussolini making the trains run on time". IMO I'm just hearing a lot of political rhetoric that has no place in TiVo, Inc.'s decision making process. TiVo does not exist to push our private political agendas. TiVo exists as a corporation to make money for its shareholders.

I'm also encouraged by the thought that this new initiative might eventually bleed over into adult oriented features, ie, provide new features and personalization for us adults as well. I don't think KidZone is a waste of development effort at all, even for those of us who do not have children. We may see a lot of new things coming out of this initiative that we would not have seen otherwise. AdultZone or whatever you want to call it. :up:


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Back from New York. The press event went great, it was very well attended, and as noted here the new KidZone feature has garnered a lot of interest and press.
> 
> Pony


Hey Pony,

Thanks for posting here. I'm glad to here that you were involved closely with the project. I think you summed it up pretty well, about creating a zone for kids. It will make Tivo better for all users. And I think the fact that it is optional is important to remember.

I think others are griping because they really want downloads, and thats some kinda easy holy grail to understand. But the way I see it, figuring a way to manage things, including downloads, actually has to come first. But hopefully one step makes the other closer.

I also agree with Stephen that outsiders don't really have access to internal Tivo market research... so we can't really comment on how time is spent.... heck we want everything now!!! now now now!!

(now who's being a kid?)
Cheers!


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## Elroy Jetson (Mar 4, 2006)

Appeal to the masses. Another nice move TiVo.

Please continue to add features for everyone.
I can't believe anyone would be upset over an ethical feature for kids.

What is this forum coming to...ohh the humanity!


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> I think Tom Rogers summed it up nicely yesterday. He was asked if TiVo shared PTC's view on x, y, or z.
> 
> Tom's response: It's not about what TiVo thinks. Our personal thoughts or beliefs don't factor into it...we're about providing choice. We're a conduit for information, not the decision makers.
> 
> ...


http://www.parentstv.org/ptc/publications/release/2006/0302b.asp



PTC Press Release..Tim Winter said:


> On behalf of the more than one million members of the PTC, it is an honor and a pleasure to be here with you today in support of TiVos new service, called KidZone."
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Ive known Tom for a long time


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

peteypete said:


> I also agree with Stephen that outsiders don't really have access to internal Tivo market research... so we can't really comment on how time is spent....


But we do have access to TiVo's financial and subscription numbers. We can also see with our own eyes the hardware and software progression that has gone on since the original launch roughly seven years ago.

We can also listen to TiVo's relatively new CEO tell the financial community that TiVo did not have any handle on its marketing research as it pertains to pricing, and that only in recent months have they done new research; we are still waiting to see action based on that research.

I asked several questions earlier in the thread which would be illuminating. In essence they are:

1. Why were there no cable partner(s) on the podium?
2. What made it necessary to announce this now rather than wait for cable partners to announce with it?
3. Why was this not designed and announced as a general multi-user feature - with all the attendant kid safety features available for multiple ages of kids within a household - which everyone would be on board with, and which is actually something often suggested by current users.

Based on TiVo's track record, TiVo is not entitled to the benefit of the doubt on anything. The burden of proof is entirely on TiVo.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> 1. Why were there no cable partner(s) on the podium?
> 2. What made it necessary to announce this now rather than wait for cable partners to announce with it?
> 3. Why was this not designed and announced as a general multi-user feature - with all the attendant kid safety features available for multiple ages of kids within a household - which everyone would be on board with, and which is actually something often suggested by current users.


I can't answer for TiVo, but given the PTC's antagonistic relationship with TiVo's biggest cable partner, Comcast, it seems unlikely that they would want to appear together.

The timing of the announcement has been a matter of some speculation here (mostly between me and Zatz), but maybe the reason will become clear in time.

As for the general-purpose multi-user feature, I can only imagine that such a feature would drive the marketing people insane. How do you explain the value of a thing like that to people who have never even used a DVR? People can get their heads around "KidZone" -- it lets you pick what programs your kids can watch. It would be pretty hard to explain the generalization of the feature in ten words.



> Based on TiVo's track record, TiVo is not entitled to the benefit of the doubt on anything. The burden of proof is entirely on TiVo.


While I agree that the answers to some of these questions would be illuminating, or at least interesting, there is an unfounded presumption that TiVo owes us an explanation. The only people TiVo has to answer to are their shareholders, and answers in the form of public statements or messages in this forum are not what shareholders are interested in. The real answers will be in the performance of the company. Given the nature of the company and the timing of the new management's entry, I wouldn't expect to see significant results until Q3 of this FY.


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## weymo (Jan 26, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I will put this new feature on that one TiVo but will most likely continue to set the list myself, assuming I read correctly that that is possible with this feature. I imagine I will be blocking out the 700 club and other such family value groups as very unsuitable viewing fare for my impressionable children
> 
> andf then hook up the cable again and put an Xbox on the composite feed


I think any press release of added functionality which increases public awareness for new customers and strategically pulls in new subs is a good thing for TiVo and us. The more pervasive TiVo is as a platform, the longer we can expect innovation and service. I mean, TiVo has to continue to find new markets folks.

Our setup is similar...dedicated a 40-hour to the kids and to secondary season passes when the living room has a conflict. The kids TV has a V-chip which works 99% of the time (unrated programming can be tricky) but I've solved that problem by creating an autorecord wish list for children/animated which keeps the thing on a child-appropriate fare. The V-chip keeps them from selecting items which are above their rating level (tv goes black until you hit the TiVo button no the remote) but yes, I've had to train them to leave anything with a green ball on there after a mass delete-a-thon. Otherwise, I am able to filter 100% of what my kids watch; and when new shows come on, I have to get educated about them by watching a few episodes along with my kids until I'm comfortable that it will be okay going forward.

My point is this. It's another optional tool. Use it or don't use it. The usefulness of it will be measured. If it works well and is a popular feature folks like...great. If not, that message will be sent as well and fewer resources will be allocated to it.

I trust the TiVo team. They have successfully navigated some very dangerous waters and lived to tell about it while competitors pushed further and folded. In the current political environment and under the overwhelming pressure of none-too-thrilled DMCA-intoxicated media companies, cable/satellite wanting an ever-increasing cut of the action, and Microsoft/Apple moving into the living room, there is much to applaud in the appliance approach.

I love my TiVo, little warts and all. It has changed the way we watch television and it's the timeshift paradigm that has upset 'business as usual' at MegaloMedia. I will continue to raise my children with the content that I deem appropriate, whether that agrees with other people or groups or not...because that is my responsibility...not someone else's. If this new feature sells more subscriptions then great! I'll have a look and decide for myself.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

KidZone is going to let our 3 year olds watch the same shows as our 9 year olds and our 14 year olds. How is that an elegant, TiVo-like, solution? It is for engineering to develop a generalized platform with maximum flexibility. It is for marketing to decide how to explain it, and some other area(s) to decide how to use it. Without the proper tools created by engineering, how can the actual needs of the user be addressed by other parts of the company? The answer is it can't happen; you end up with a one size fits all solution that greatly limits your value and risks being the WRONG solution for the market.

Chucky seems sophisticated enough to know how inaccurate market research can be, and knowledgeable enough about TiVo's history to know its poor results in that area. This is a venture into a totally uncharted area; the best market reseach would be very tenuous.

What evidence do we have that TiVo engineering has an effective, well thought out technology road map that is adopted by the company as a whole? Look at MRV/TTG; video transfers are very slow. S2.5's are slower than S2's. Look at the podcast client; no functionality because the organization didn't properly anticipate in its architecture those needs.

TiVo has launched this venture with no cable partners on hand. If cable partners were coming, waiting for them would make more sense than announcing something that won't be important or available for more than 3 months. That indicates a likelyhood of it being speculative more than it being a lock on getting deeper into their cable strategy. 

Certainly TiVo doesn't owe any explanations here. Their shareholders are free to buy and sell their shares as they see fit; their customers are free to buy or stop using their TiVoes as they want; and we are free to pontificate based on whatever information we do have at hand - or based on whatever whims happen to pop into our heads at the moment.

I will continue to base my opinions on all the information at hand and evaluate new information as it arrives.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> KidZone is going to let our 3 year olds watch the same shows as our 9 year olds and our 14 year olds. How is that an elegant, TiVo-like, solution?


No, it doesn't. You've stated something as fact, for others to consume, when you don't have any information.



HDTiVo said:


> It is for engineering to develop a generalized platform with maximum flexibility. It is for marketing to decide how to explain it, and some other area(s) to decide how to use it. Without the proper tools created by engineering, how can the actual needs of the user be addressed by other parts of the company? The answer is it can't happen; you end up with a one size fits all solution that greatly limits your value and risks being the WRONG solution for the market.


At TiVo, Marketing and Engineering are very tightly intertwined, all the way through the development process. Right from the beginning...nothing gets thrown over the wall (either way). This section, like the quote above, is not based on fact.



HDTiVo said:


> Chucky seems sophisticated enough to know how inaccurate market research can be, and knowledgeable enough about TiVo's history to know its poor results in that area. This is a venture into a totally uncharted area; the best market reseach would be very tenuous.


In my opinion, as I can't speak for anyone else, you should let other members speak for themselves. 

TiVo has a history of delivering innovative products done in a thoughtful, easy to use manner. Market Research and User Research is something that we do a lot of - not secondary research bought from someone else, but primary research done by our own folks. You don't have access to our information (nor should you be expected to). Is market research always right? Absolutely not. Does TiVo have a history of doing well in uncharted areas? Yes we do. Have a little faith. 



HDTiVo said:


> What evidence do we have that TiVo engineering has an effective, well thought out technology road map that is adopted by the company as a whole? Look at MRV/TTG; video transfers are very slow. S2.5's are slower than S2's. Look at the podcast client; no functionality because the organization didn't properly anticipate in its architecture those needs.


Because TiVo doesn't publish it's product roadmap on it's website (with a signed blood oath from each and every employee), you suggest one doesn't exist, and that our employees aren't committed. We do have a well thought out technology road map, and it is adopted by the company as a whole. To suggest otherwise is silly.

And the Podcaster comment...we've been over this several times before, and you've mischaracterized the situation yet again. The people that create and own the podcasts - it's their servers that don't support pause. It has nothing to do with TiVo, or our architecture. If you'd like to pause a podcast, there are other solutions offered by TiVo that will allow you to do exactly that.



HDTiVo said:


> TiVo has launched this venture with no cable partners on hand. If cable partners were coming, waiting for them would make more sense than announcing something that won't be important or available for more than 3 months. That indicates a likelyhood of it being speculative more than it being a lock on getting deeper into their cable strategy.


Although a lot of our resources are working on cable, not everything we do is cable related. We are our own company, with our own products. We will continue to invest in services and features which differentiate our products from generic cable and satellite DVR's. You've said that not having a cable company onstage is an issue for you, I'm telling you that it's not. The natural flow of innovation has always been from our own products first, migrating to partner products second. KidZone is a feature we've developed for our products. We'll talk to cable partners about it, but you shouldn't expect a cable company onstage at every TiVo announcement.



HDTiVo said:


> Certainly TiVo doesn't owe any explanations here. Their shareholders are free to buy and sell their shares as they see fit; their customers are free to buy or stop using their TiVoes as they want; and we are free to pontificate based on whatever information we do have at hand - or based on whatever whims happen to pop into our heads at the moment.


You're absolutely correct here. Explanations here are not owed by the company, or any of it's employees. We post here because it has value, and we appreciate our customers and what they have to say. And you are free to pontificate.

In reading through your post HDTiVo, I fought a temptation to just ignore it. We've had several exchanges now where, in my view, you too often seem intent on spreading the worst possible view of our company, no matter what information is provided. Instead of ignoring your post, I'm responding with the hope that given a little bit of information, you'll learn to trust us. Don't always assume the worst of us...we're not as misguided or incompetent as we're made out to be.



HDTiVo said:


> I will continue to base my opinions on all the information at hand and evaluate new information as it arrives.


That seems reasonable.

Cheers,

Pony


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

I think this is great! It's not something I would use but I can see why people would like it. This isn't about censorship. This about protecting children from viewing inappropriate content.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Well, its good that TiVoPony responded to my comments. If he ignored them, it would indicate things were worse (his term) at TiVo than I describe. This way its at least a start.

I have a moment to address the first point.

In the Press Release KidZone is described as a place - singular. On the TiVo/kidzone web page a seperate list - singular - is mentioned for kids. On TiVo's Blog,


> Once in TiVo KidZone, parents can use the on-screen menus to create a password and then select an age range appropriate for their household.


 an age range - singular - for the household is mentioned.

No where in the other Blogs and media reports have I found any mention of multiple settings for multiple kids. In the screen shots I have seen, the screen only seems to offer a single choice of three or four ages ranges.

So we'll chalk this one up to poor communications skills on TiVo's part - now corrected somewhat by Pony.

More latter...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> At TiVo, Marketing and Engineering are very tightly intertwined, all the way through the development process. Right from the beginning...nothing gets thrown over the wall (either way). This section, like the quote above, is not based on fact.


Its good that there is strong communication between Engineering and Marketing; and hopefully its not just those two departments. This is essential for a well functioning organization. However, an organization must also take steps to ensure communication does not lead to damaging the primary function of one department by another. A theoretical example: did concerns by marketing about how to sell it limit engineering's ability to create a useable, flexible and extensible design that might ultimately be more marketable?



TiVoPony said:


> In my opinion, as I can't speak for anyone else, you should let other members speak for themselves.


I have read enough from ChuckyBox to form an opinion about whether he would be sophisticated on a matter. If you think he is not sophisticated enough, I won't begrudge you your opinion. Let's see what ChuckyBox says.



TiVoPony said:


> TiVo has a history of delivering innovative products done in a thoughtful, easy to use manner. Market Research and User Research is something that we do a lot of - not secondary research bought from someone else, but primary research done by our own folks. You don't have access to our information (nor should you be expected to). Is market research always right? Absolutely not. Does TiVo have a history of doing well in uncharted areas? Yes we do. Have a little faith.


I am sorry, but I cannot agree with that assessment of TiVo's results. Reaching only 1.3M SA subscribers by the end of last quarter, not monetizing HMO as originally attempted, HME not progressing with third party developers - as per Galleon - as initially thought, long term money losing financial results; these are some places where TiVo has not excelled.

Please give us some concrete examples where TiVo's market research has led to financial success - which I assume is TiVo's primary goal. Until then, asking for faith is not really fair, but expecting it if it happens is OK.



TiVoPony said:


> Because TiVo doesn't publish it's product roadmap on it's website (with a signed blood oath from each and every employee), you suggest one doesn't exist, and that our employees aren't committed. We do have a well thought out technology road map, and it is adopted by the company as a whole. To suggest otherwise is silly.


I don't know if TiVo has a roadmap or not. I have never seen one. I don't know if any such roadmap is followed or not or how closely. My comment was that we don't have any evidence of such a roadmap, and gave a couple examples where it appears if there is a roadmap, its lacking.

Now you say there is a roadmap. You say it is adopted by the company as a whole. Very good; new information noted. You say its well thought out. TiVo will have to demonstrate that a little better with its future deeds to raise my opinion.



TiVoPony said:


> And the Podcaster comment...we've been over this several times before, and you've mischaracterized the situation yet again. The people that create and own the podcasts - it's their servers that don't support pause. It has nothing to do with TiVo, or our architecture. If you'd like to pause a podcast, there are other solutions offered by TiVo that will allow you to do exactly that.


Yes this has been discussed more than once - on more than one thread. Each time you give the reason why pause doesn't exist. Each time I and others mention ways it could have been done. We are not stupid, we get the reason. The point is TiVo made a choice to go a particular way, a choice which you have said was thought about alot. How I and others value that choice - and implicitly value the thought that went into it - is for us.



TiVoPony said:


> Although a lot of our resources are working on cable, not everything we do is cable related. We are our own company, with our own products. We will continue to invest in services and features which differentiate our products from generic cable and satellite DVR's. You've said that not having a cable company onstage is an issue for you, I'm telling you that it's not. The natural flow of innovation has always been from our own products first, migrating to partner products second. KidZone is a feature we've developed for our products. We'll talk to cable partners about it, but you shouldn't expect a cable company onstage at every TiVo announcement.


Thank you, that expands our understanding of the relationship of this announcement to potential cable company deals. My comments related to some who have suggested that this is going to help TiVo in getting more cable software deals. Their comments have leaned to the side of victory, saying in effect they think TiVo is likely to get more cable deals. My statement was that it looked from appearances like the KidZone feature was done "speculatively" in that sense. Your comment confirms that I am right.



TiVoPony said:


> You're absolutely correct here. Explanations here are not owed by the company, or any of it's employees. We post here because it has value, and we appreciate our customers and what they have to say. And you are free to pontificate.
> 
> In reading through your post HDTiVo, I fought a temptation to just ignore it. We've had several exchanges now where, in my view, you too often seem intent on spreading the worst possible view of our company, no matter what information is provided. Instead of ignoring your post, I'm responding with the hope that given a little bit of information, you'll learn to trust us. Don't always assume the worst of us...we're not as misguided or incompetent as we're made out to be.


Again, thank you for not taking the route of ignoring my post. The information helps. As far as trust* (view really,) results will have to change that.

If you think I am "intent on spreading the worst possible view of [TiVo]..." you are not reading enough of my posts. I call things as they come, that is true, and probably from an inside-TiVo-perspective it looks more negative than fair. Read some of my futuristic posts about the potential still available, or some of the ones about what a good idea it would be for TiVo to offer all upfront/all subscription pricing.

We both invest alot of time commenting about TiVo. I hope listening to each other will bring greater success to TiVo.

* Trust is the wrong word...I substantially trust what is being said already. I evaluate differently than the average person inside TiVo - it would appear. This is natural, outsiders and insiders are going to have different perspectives.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Well, its good that TiVoPony responded to my comments. If he ignored them, it would indicate things were worse (his term) at TiVo than I describe.


Or it would have indicated he has better uses for his time than sparring on the forum and defending his company's choices/actions.  I definitely don't always agree, but I've got a lot of respect for these guys coming in here with thick skins and responding. I would have given up trying to convince us of anything a long time ago.

While I'm posting, I'd really be interested in seeing some sort of demo and/or more photos than what CNET provided. Pony if you guys are far enough along that you can be public with the functionality beyond the press event, how about making a video entry on the TiVo blog with you narrating us through KidZone. Hmm then again that probably would take more time and effort than responding to HDTiVo.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> I have read enough from ChuckyBox to form an opinion about whether he would be sophisticated on a matter. If you think he is not sophisticated enough, I won't begrudge you your opinion. Let's see what ChuckyBox says.


My kitty's breath smells like cat food.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> My kitty's breath smells like cat food.


Pony was right about you. Darn.


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## jimmymac (Nov 6, 2002)

The thing that has me most curious is why Tivo and felt the need to come up with this KidZone thing in the first place.

How many different ways do parent need to prevent their kids from watching stuff on TV they don't want them to watch do they need. When I was a kid if my parents didn't want us watching something we were told we couldn't watch and that was the end of it. 

Now we have V-chips, cable and satellite companies offer their own ways to lock out kids with passwords, the cable and satellite company have all recently rolled out "family" programming packages. 

Isn't this all a bit overkill?


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

I don't think this is overkill. This is different than the V-chip solutions. What I really like is that I will be able to put my TiVo into kids mode, then they can select what I have pre-recorded for them without them having to wade through all of the other programs on the TiVo. My kids don't have any interest in watching most of the shows that I watch. In fact, when I start up a show, like Law and Order, they will go find something else to do. 

This will also prevent them from accidentally deleting shows, as has happened with my 2 1/2 year old. This is a really nice solution for those of us with small children.

This feature is not all about preventing children from seeing some shows. It is more than that.


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

Parents don't want to do parenting anymore, they want someone to do it for them because they just don't want to think about it.

As a result, they will accept even worst of what's out there (PTC) without questioning. They 'Do it for the Kids', not realizing that they are supporting a group that's main goal is to censor or eliminate shows that everyone, including the parents, want to watch themselves.

Just as all those other methods are available and easy to use but virtually never used at all, so will be the fate of the Kids Zone. The most recent, other, appeasement was the announcement of "Family Packages'. It looks like those are going done in flames like the rest of this type of thing.

Trouble is that this TiVo supported PTC activity just helps bring legitimacy to an organization that rightly belongs in the Middle-East and not in the U.S.A.

Side Note: Why don't some of these PTC backers go into the Now Playing - TV Show Talk http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=31 area and use the PTC condemnations on 95% of the shows everyone comments on. See what the reaction is there ! The Parents Television Council was never about protecting children - it has always been about controlling everyones television viewing.


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

Dmon4u said:


> Parents don't want to do parenting anymore, they want someone to do it for them because they just don't want to think about it.
> 
> As a result, they will accept even worst of what's out there (PTC) without questioning. They 'Do it for the Kids', not realizing that they are supporting a group that's main goal is to censor or eliminate shows that everyone, including the parents, want to watch themselves.


I wouldn't be surprised if most parents choose not to use the ratings groups, especially for small children. We have a handful of Season Passes for different shows that my smaller kids like to watch. It would be nice to be able to hand over the remote to a small child, and know they aren't going to end up watching or deleting other shows.

I have not problem with my older kids having access to the entire TiVo.



> Just as all those other methods are available and easy to use but virtually never used at all, so will be the fate of the Kids Zone.
> Trouble is that this just helps bring legitimacy to an organization that rightly belongs in the Middle-East and not in the U.S.A.


These organization have every right to exist. It is part of the freedoms we all enjoy in this country. However, it may be a bad move for TiVo to associate themselves with these groups.


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

KidZone Timeline:

- Tivo tells us they have an important announcement.
- Users and press speculate about much wanted features and products.
- Tivo's announcement is out of left field to users and the press.
- Tivo's feature includes involvement of a much critisized organization.
- Tivo announces feature is not ready.
- Tivo gives little detailed information about such feature.
- Tivo employees are not quickly available on the board to give more details.
- Many long time respected posters (not me) and others (me) react negatively.
- Tivo employees come on the board and tell us we don't know anything.
- Tivo states press has reacted positively (basically because the lazy press just reprinted the press release in my opinion).
- Tivo asks us to trust them (a trust that has not been earned).

Have I got this right? Is this how Tivo wanted things to go down?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TechDreamer said:


> KidZone Timeline:


Ha! I enjoyed that.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

TechDreamer said:


> KidZone Timeline:
> 
> - snip -
> 
> Have I got this right? Is this how Tivo wanted things to go down?


Nope, you don't have it right. It's only right from a "Hey, what about me?" viewpoint. Here's the real rundown:

- TiVo tells the press that we have an important announcement on Thursday, and are invited to attend a briefing in New York. This is mandatory...if you don't tell the press to show up somewhere, they don't. 
- Bloggers and posters read that an announcement is coming and start the speculation machine, with many emphatic demands made (eg. "It better be xyz, I've been waiting xx years!" and "If it's not xyq, they're stupid!"). This is based on zero information, as the announcement hasn't happened yet. The press however, does not speculate.
- Somebody leaks some of the details to a blogger. The cries of whoa and anger escalate from bloggers and posters (eg. "It can't be that, they can't be serious" and "What about (insert favorite personal pet peeve/project here)?"). And still the press does not speculate.
- TiVo hosts a very well attended press event at the Museum of Television and Radio in New York. Press are briefed on why TiVo views this as an important initiative and are given full demos and discussion regarding the functionality. Two partners are introduced, each of which will be able to provide recommendations to parents regarding quality programming for their families (at the parent's discretion of course). All of the details are discussed with the press, including the release date for the feature (June of this year).
- Bloggers and posters get the early confirmation that yes, TiVo did indeed announce KidZone. The speculation machine turns to how this will work, and bad assumptions are made by people who were not at the event. There are more cries of grief, but they are not based on information.
- A second cry of grief goes up that one of the two organizations making recommendations available is the PTC. A small number of people feel very passionately that the PTC is inappropriate in any context, even if it is only providing a list of recommended programs for families to record. The PTC is accused of censorship, and the irony is lost on these posters that they're demanding precisely what they accuse the PTC of doing.
- A couple of bloggers begin to realize that this is potentially much bigger,and more important than they'd initially thought.
- A conversation starts between a TiVo employee and some bloggers/posters.
- The press, who have been fully briefed, now write their articles, and they are very positive regarding TiVo's effort to put more control and choice into the hands of parents. Having been briefed, they get it right, and their stories are carried throughout the country, in many newspapers, radio, and television broadcasts. The message is read by millions of people. But being the mainstream press, they don't publish every little niggling detail about how the feature will work.
- Some forum members 'get it' as well, and start to defend TiVo's announcement. 
- TiVo employees post more details about the fit and function of the feature, answering questions about how it will work. There are many posters appreciative of having the additional detail.
- Keeping with the old axiom "You can't please all of the people all of the time", there are a handful of people who focus on spinning things negatively for TiVo, including posting inaccurate information and taking sarcastic shots. But it's the usual suspects - they're the three or four people you can count on to have a negative thing to say, and they add nothing to the conversation.

How do we stop the extreme speculation and outcry from the forum? We don't. The forum is self-regulated, as accurate information becomes available, the outcry drops down. It's happened before. Do a search for "slippery slope".

We love the forum, and have been participating here for years. We share a lot of information here. But the forum is not our primary means of communication with the world.

Press announcements are structured they way they are, with the timing that they are, in order to generate press. To get information out to millions of people, not hundreds or even thousands. Answering questions and participating on a forum is a good thing for our company to do, but it neither replaces a press event or takes precedent over one. When we make a press announcement, we do try to share information here. But we're not going to announce a new feature like KidZone here first. And we shouldn't be expected to comment at all on speculation the night before a press announcement.

So the bloggers and others will get wind of things in the future and take their best guesses. I guess I'd only suggest that everyone take a deep breath before starting to assume the worst possible scenarios, and when you make your predictions of the future, do it with an acknowledged grain of salt.

One more note for the timeline. Participating on a forum takes valuable time and resource. So to the timeline above I'll add:

- One TiVo employee realizes he's spending too much time debating with the naysayers. It only distracts the conversation from what it should be about - KidZone, and how it will help parents.

Cheers,
Pony


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I only wish that Pony would let us know what he really thinks.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> I only wish that Pony would let us know what he really thinks.


I'm glad he did! :up:


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> - The press, who have been fully briefed, now write their articles, and they are very positive regarding TiVo's effort to put more control and choice into the hands of parents. Having been briefed, they get it right, and their stories are carried throughout the country, in many newspapers, radio, and television broadcasts. The message is read by millions of people. But being the mainstream press, they don't publish every little niggling detail about how the feature will work.
> 
> Press announcements are structured they way they are, with the timing that they are, in order to generate press. To get information out to millions of people, not hundreds or even thousands. Answering questions and participating on a forum is a good thing for our company to do, but it neither replaces a press event or takes precedent over one. When we make a press announcement, we do try to share information here. But we're not going to announce a new feature like KidZone here first. And we shouldn't be expected to comment at all on speculation the night before a press announcement.


I agree TiVo is prioritizing correctly by focusing on the mainstream press as that is where the vast majority of people get their info. Though, I am glad to see TiVo reaching out to the blogosphere recently and continuing to clue us forum members in.

What I'm wondering though is what are next week's or next month's mainstream articles going to be like? Will some in the mainstream press latch on to a negative PTC angle - controversy sells whether it's a blog or a paper. It's not imaginary - there seem to be some people who have very strong feelings about that group and is that worthy of a story somewhere? If so, I wonder how TiVo would respond. Guess we'll have to see how (if) that plays out...

Since the feature hasn't been released yet, TiVo is also in the speculating business here regarding what the impact might be. Dissenting opinions are not necessarily invalid.

As for me personally, KidZone seems like a nice marketing hook to continue differentiating the TiVo platform from generic DVRs, inline with Rogers strategy. I'm not sure I'm going to run off and start procreating, but the idea of partioning the DVR is kinda cool. I just wonder if TiVo will start getting bad (mainstream) press by partnering with PTC... we shall see.

Oh and as I said yesterday, I thank you for taking the time to engage in these conversations.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> - A second cry of grief goes up that one of the two organizations making recommendations available is the PTC. A small number of people feel very passionately that the PTC is inappropriate in any context, even if it is only providing a list of recommended programs for families to record. The PTC is accused of censorship, and the irony is lost on these posters that they're demanding precisely what they accuse the PTC of doing.


Even if it is only...

If the KKK wanted, EVEN IF THEY WERE *ONLY* providing a list of recommended programs, that would be OK? We both know it would not. Let's not pretend the "it's only" defense is the best case to make. It's a joke. It's what the organization STANDS FOR, ACTIVELY PURSUES, and DEMANDS that is the issue, NOT the list itself so please, let's try and keep the actual issue being voiced in the conversation rather than deflecting to some "it's only a list" thing which is really a joke.

The difference, and a working definition of CENSORSHIP would be helpful, Pony, is that the PTC * wants to RID the airwaves of programs it does not approve of* while Tivo, as far as I know, DOES NOT. The outcry over Tivo's parterning with PTC is in no way censorship. A company SHOULD partner with companies it deems to be helpful to its strategy, profitability, AND, hopefully, shares similar corporate values. If it choose not to, that is NOT censorship. It's being a good corporate citizen.

The comparison to the outcry over the PTC to what the PTC itself states is a given purpose is absolutely 100% wrong. Your "irony" is based on a complete misunderstanding of "censorship." Whether Tivo partners or not with a company is NOT censorship. Calling for the removal of programs from PUBLIC airwaves IS censorship.



TiVoPony said:


> - Some forum members 'get it' as well, and start to defend TiVo's announcement.


 Any company that believes only those who "get it" are the ones who agree with them is doomed.

I'm more curious how long Tom Rogers and Tim Winters have known each other and in what capacity. But hey, that's me...I don't "get it" and am not "defending" Tivo...

Tivo is partnered with an organization that believes one of its mission is to ELIMINATE television programming it does not approve of. How ANYONE at Tivo could possibly come up with a way to defend that partnership is beyond me.

I'm not upset at the religious and political nature of the PTC list. Whatever. They're a total joke. I'm not angry at KidZone. I'll evaluate the feature when it's rolled out but it seems interesting and could possibly be very useful, especially if done with the usual Tivo usability. Partnering with a company that wants to control what's BROADCAST -- not what's viewed by children but what actually is BROADCAST -- that's a HUGE STEP IN THE WRONG DIRECTION and THAT'S CENSORSHIP.

You don't have an issue with an organization trying to change WHAT gets broadcats? Seriously?

I'd like your answer to that question because it's at the HEART of all this, Pony. I've had disagreements with you, have always appreciated your participation and hard work, but never in a million years could I imagine that you believe an organization trying to control what's BROADCAST (not viewed) is one you would agree with. I don't buy it.

_ITV


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

interactiveTV said:


> Even if it is only...
> 
> If the KKK wanted, EVEN IF THEY WERE *ONLY* providing a list of recommended programs, that would be OK?
> 
> ...


My personal views of the PTC are irrelevant to the discussion. It doesn't factor in.

Comparing the PTC to a hate-based group, even in this indirect manner, is offensive. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the PTC, that is uncalled for, and I for one stop reading when those sort of extreme comparisons are used. That's a non-starter.

I've also already said that my cable company carries channels that I don't agree with. But I don't cancel my cable subscription because the cable company carries those channels. Nor do I extend the views held by any channel or program to my cable company or their employees. I simply don't watch those channels. The same applies here. (and notice that whether you're right-winged or left-winged, the statements above apply equally well).

Based on your comments, I'd suggest that Common Sense Media would be a better fit for your needs. Check them out at www.commonsensemedia.org . They're actually larger than the PTC, it's a shame that nobody has been talking about their recommendations. The choice is there.

Cheers,
Pony


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

> I just hope TiVo doesn't start getting bad (mainstream) press by partnering with PTC...


Turn it around; it would reaffirm TiVo is still relevant. One of the best things that could happen to TiVo is an enormous firestorm over parental controls leading to government mandates into which TiVo steps with the words, "Yeah, we've got a fire extinguisher for that."

edit: I think Zatz changed the wording a little after I quoted him. I was on a long phone call and missed that. No change in my post.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

> TiVoOpsMgr
> Samo and others, can I at least ask you to watch the demo and review the features before you cast judgment? There's far more to this set of features than morac's summary.
> 
> morac
> ...


Anyone see any update on where this might be seen?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Turn it around; it would reaffirm TiVo is still relevant. One of the best things that could happen to TiVo is an enormous firestorm over parental controls leading to government mandates into which TiVo steps with the words, "Yeah, we've got a fire extinguisher for that."


That is one reason why I changed my wording... which you probably noticed.  Also I'm thinking all the debate here and on Stephen's blog is good practice for TiVo to get their response ready *if* a negative angle is picked up on.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6312447.html?display=Breaking+News



> Tim Winter, executive director of the Parents Television Council and a former NBC colleague of Rogers, says





> Rogers says that TiVo had yet to discuss KidZone with broadcast and cable networks.


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## jimmymac (Nov 6, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> Comparing the PTC to a hate-based group, even in this indirect manner, is offensive.


Everything I've read about PTC makes them out to be a hate-based group. I belong to a group of people who whenever there are people of this group on TV, PTC does their best to get the show(s) yanked off the air. I personally find this very hateful.

Their mission is less about protecting kids from stuff they shouldn't see on TV, than forcing their viewpoints on everybody wheter you agree with them or not.



TiVoPony said:


> But I don't cancel my cable subscription because the cable company carries those channels.


Neither would most reasonable people, but PTC does their best to try and get the cable company not to carry what they find to be objectionable cable channels.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> I guess I'd only suggest that everyone take a deep breath before starting to assume the worst possible scenarios, and when you make your predictions of the future, do it with an acknowledged grain of salt.


I did take a deep breath, and belive it or not, I can see now the benefit of KidZone for TiVo. Traditional TiVo demographics (higher income, educated, technology literate) does not buy TiVo SA any longer. Just about everybody in TiVo demographics already got one. Grandma and JoeSixpack never bought TiVo in a first place. I would not be surprised if this Wednesday TiVo will report less net additions than last year. If TiVo can't sell units for almost nothing to traditional customers they have to look at alternative demographics.
From Tim Winter:
"We congratulate TiVo for developing this exciting new feature, and we look forward *to reviewing the final consumer product. Once we complete our formal product review, we hope to present TiVo with the PTCs Seal of Approval, to provide a reliable source of program information, and to help them reach out to consumers who will want this product."*

There is a group of 1 million brainwashed narrow minded supporters that would on direction from their leaders buy TiVo and see it as donation to good cause. Even if TiVo loses 10% of present subscribers due to association with this group, they will gain much more from getting "Seal of Approval" from PTC. It is not a case of TiVo legitimizing PTC, it is a case of PTC getting foot in a door by providing customers to TiVo at a time TiVo needs them the most.


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

TivoPony stated:


> - Keeping with the old axiom "You can't please all of the people all of the time", there are a handful of people who focus on spinning things negatively for TiVo, including posting inaccurate information and taking sarcastic shots. But it's the usual suspects - they're the three or four people you can count on to have a negative thing to say, and they add nothing to the conversation.


Yes I am probably one of those people, but I have been surprised by how many of the regular Tivo posters have responded negatively. Some of the posts have been really NEGATIVE and have gone farther than I would have posted and I have some pretty negative posts.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> I've also already said that my cable company carries channels that I don't agree with. But I don't cancel my cable subscription because the cable company carries those channels.


Well I guess if your cable company only offered you 2 channels and one of them was pushing a particular agenda against your beliefs, you might have issues with it. Wait....you say this is not a fair comparison between Cable Channels offered, and the Tivo feature....probably not...but I didn't make it.

I don't have an issue with Tivo offering this parental option feature (although I haven't seen all the details yet). I do imagine Tivo is providing what they consider to be a useful setting, that is beneficial for parents, and can also can draw in new customers. No doubt. My concern is that Tivo may not have thought out that they may be legitimizing a company that in its essence holds completely opposite values than Tivo (ie "TV your way" versus "TV our way"). You can already see this implied legitimization from PTC's press release regarding the partnership.

I know when you work hard on a project, it maybe difficult to see it objectively, but I think you can understand the point some of us are trying to make to a portion of the new Tivo feature. I just ask that you try not to lump in this point of view, with all the others, and call it irrelevant.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> My personal views of the PTC are irrelevant to the discussion. It doesn't factor in.
> 
> Comparing the PTC to a hate-based group, even in this indirect manner, is offensive. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the PTC, that is uncalled for, and I for one stop reading when those sort of extreme comparisons are used. That's a non-starter.


I never compared PTC to a hate group. I wondered if the offering of a list was the ONLY requirement.

I also corrected your very misinformed usage of "censorship" which you don't want to address.

You can set the terms for the conversation as you wish but it is painfully obvious the decision to include PTC had more to do with Winters/Rogers relationship than a good corporate decision. That's my opinion.

Everything you write says to me there is no way -- outside of employment with Tivo -- you would defend the PTC in this manner. You DON'T cancel your cable.

If you want to defend the PTC but not have ANY personal views on them, it seems to be an uphill battle. Either you support their goal of censorship or you don't.

Tivo is supporting the PTC. Tivo is adding legitimacy, press, and stature to an organization that rates TV programs based on political and religious (read: Christian) beliefs and calls for the outright elimination of those programs that which they do not approve.

I find that offensive. I guess we all have our offensive points.

_ITV


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

It should be interesting the next time (any day now) that the PTC gets in trouble. I can hear the words in the Press Conference:

The Reporter begins - "The PTC caused an uproar today by ......"

In defense, a PTC spokesman says somewhere in his statement - " The PTC is a mainstream concern with links to TiVo and we .... "

I'd hate to be the guy that put this deal together ! Nobody can see the PTC suddenly becoming anything less than the Bad Press Magnet they've always been over the years. Even FOX News stopped having them on regularly like they used to.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

samo said:


> I would not be surprised if this Wednesday TiVo will report less net additions than last year.


This is something I was not going to bring up because it had only come from one source - the original NY Times article - albeit repeated (journalistically 'xeroxed') throughout the land. I would not normally rely on such limited information on an issue like this. However, on Friday MarketWatch carried a story which states what you did there (story.)

Now Pony confirms the press got things right too, so I'll post now:


TiVoPony said:


> The press, who have been fully briefed, now write their articles, and they are very positive regarding TiVo's effort to put more control and choice into the hands of parents. Having been briefed, they get it right, and their stories are carried throughout the country,


The NY Times story states that TiVo had 1.4M subs. That is an increase of 100K in the fourth quarter - vs about 251K a year ago. This is close to what I posted in another thread last month.

*Now there's obviously lots of rounding involved and that could result in a better actual number*, but if the story was right then it looks like much lower net sub adds for this year's Q4.

In the spirit of not being negative I will mention - without endorsement - that the MarketWatch article quotes a sell side analyst that increased his DTV subs adds expectation to 223,000 from 40,000 recently. However there is no offical TiVo or other confirmation to this change in outlook that I have found. The DTV subs value is not very great 'going forward' either.

Edit: A look back at last year's DTV sub adds shows 447,000 in Q4.

Last Edit: Striking TiVoPony's comment because he has explained that he didn't intend to refer to the 1.4M sub data.


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## dumbunny (May 14, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> Based on your comments, I'd suggest that Common Sense Media would be a better fit for your needs. Check them out at www.commonsensemedia.org . They're actually larger than the PTC, it's a shame that nobody has been talking about their recommendations. The choice is there.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


I just visited the website. It's not bad, but not great either. A couple of shows that we watch, "Between the Lions" and "The Magic School Bus", were reviewed lower because they are too fast-paced for children to be effective. One reviewer wrote:



> Even the strongest readers would have to pay close attention to the quick changes in spelling, so its unclear how the creators of this series fathomed that young readers would be able to get the gist of the spelling changes being made.


Commonsense media could use more reviews from TiVo owners, because these criticisms are eliminated by pause and repeat, and the dense content of these shows is very conducive to learning. There are a few educational children's shows out there that are much improved when viewed on a TiVo. On the other end of the spectrum, some shows, like "Teletubbies", actually repeat entire segments in their shows, presumably because "children learn from repetition," but also because they're too cheap or unoriginal to fill the half-hour.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> The NY Times story states that TiVo had 1.4M subs. That is an increase of 100K in the fourth quarter - vs about 251K a year ago. This is close to what I posted in another thread last month.
> 
> *Now there's obviously lots of rounding involved and that could result in a better actual number*, but if the story was right then it looks like much lower net sub adds for this year's Q4.


I'm not sure why you and samo are speculating about this. Rogers said in both the Q2 and Q3 conference calls that standalone sub adds in Q4 will be less than last year. They did not have enough inventory (due to the first half of the year under Ramsay in which profit, not growth, was the goal), and due to that inventory shortage TiVo did not market as heavily. Speculating that sub adds will be less than last year is like speculating that the sun will come up tomorrow. Standalone sub adds are guaranteed to be less than last year.

As for the NY Times statement (1.4M subs), it is unlikely that it is accurately based on a number from TiVo. It is very hard to believe that TiVo would leak a number to a subset of the press that would otherwise require an 8-K filing. Is that number going to be in the ballpark? Sure -- standalone adds will almost certainly fall in the 100K to 200K range. But it is much more likely that some genius at the Times looked at the number from last quarter, 1.308M, and rounded it up to 1.4M.



> In the spirit of not being negative I will mention - without endorsement - that the MarketWatch article quotes a sell side analyst that increased his DTV subs adds expectation to 223,000 from 40,000 recently. However there is no offical TiVo or other confirmation to this change in outlook that I have found. The DTV subs value is not very great 'going forward' either.


TiVo is no longer providing sub guidance, so you won't get any comment from them. My guess is that the 223K number is too high because the analyst probably doesn't realize that DTV's and TiVo's quarters are staggered by a month. But his isn't going to be so far off as to make a big financial difference. But he could easily be 60K too high.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

> I'm not sure why you and samo are speculating about this. Rogers said in both the Q2 and Q3 conference calls that standalone sub adds in Q4 will be less than last year.


Well, I guess it just seems to me that the differences between less and less than half, and 200K and 100K are significant to TiVo.

Obviously I did not trust the NYT number. But DJ Newswire repeated it - their story was the NYT story really - as did numerous papers across the country. No one corrected it that I saw, rather the press coverage has now been affirmed accurate by a source inside TiVo. Samo brought in the concept of subs, with a wrinkle I had not thought about before in this context, so I put up the info for what it is. I was going to try to find a way to use it more appropriately in my 'TW Passes TiVo in Subs' thread or just wait for March 8. See ya then on this...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

busy at work so i dont have time to read the whole thread and analyze it. and I just too a very quick glance at the tivo website about. But to me it loks GREAT. It looks like a wonderfull tool that my wife and I can use to give our kids some more options. My kids are young but they can operate the Tivo pretty well. Right now we need to be involved in everything they want to record and what they pick from the now playing list. As they get older and get better at reading- I'd love to be able to let them run the remote and pick and choose their own fare without my wife or I needing to hawk over them all the time. Also with the advent of MRV, what I put on my box in the bedroom or the living room gets to be fair game for the box in the kids playroom in the basement. WIthout even taping porn or anything there's plenty of adult shows that I dont want my kids seeing- even something 'harmless' like LOST or ER can be inappropriate at times for a 5 and 7 year old. 

Looks like a great tool to me- if i decide to use it.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Obviously I did not trust the NYT number. But DJ Newswire repeated it - their story was the NYT story really - as did numerous papers across the country. No one corrected it that I saw, rather the press coverage has now been affirmed accurate by a source inside TiVo.


You see HDTiVo, when you do things like this, it just makes people believe that you're up to no good.

What did you do? You took a generic comment from a TiVo employee and applied it out of context. What was your goal? To try and spread bad news about our company.

When I wrote "the press got it right" I was referring to the overall message regarding KidZone. That was the topic, and that was the context of the discussion. It wasn't a terse, throwaway comment, it was buried within a long discussion of the press reaction to the KidZone concept. The context was obvious.

You have chosen to portray my comment as a specific validation of something unrelated to KidZone that was written by a single reporter. It's illogical and misleading, and unfortunately feels all too intentional - not a simple case of misunderstanding. And it's not the first time that you've chosen to misrepresent my remarks.

I wouldn't comment on unannounced products, and I wouldn't comment on unannounced financials. Stretching my posts here to imply otherwise is dishonest.

Pony


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> busy at work so i dont have time to read the whole thread and analyze it. and I just too a very quick glance at the tivo website about. But to me it loks GREAT. It looks like a wonderfull tool that my wife and I can use to give our kids some more options.


Glad you like it!

Pony


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> A small number of people feel very passionately that the PTC is inappropriate in any context, even if it is only providing a list of recommended programs for families to record. The PTC is accused of censorship, and the irony is lost on these posters that they're demanding precisely what they accuse the PTC of doing.


I think your "timeline" is essentially correct - especially with regard to the ridiculous speculation before the announcement, and the uninformed discussion about how KidZone will work.

However, the defense of PTC is not very accurate. To say that TiVo should not align themselves with an organization like PTC is hardly censorship of the kind that PTC is striving for, where they are trying to eliminate or lobby for an outright ban on certain currently unregulated television content.

I wasn't too opposed to TiVo working with them at first, because like you I said "hey, there is another choice, and you can make your own list". But the more I read about PTC, it makes me very sad that TiVo has chosen a partnership with such an organization. I have no doubt that it might be beneficial to TiVo from an economic standpoint though - PTC might have a lot of supporters who will now buy a TiVo.

Someone described what they want as "TV our way", as opposed to TiVo's slogan "TV your way", and that sums it up pretty well.

But KidZone itself is a terrific idea, IMO.


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

I was unfamiliar with the WWE controversy mentioned in previous posts by others in this thread, so I looked it up and can now shed a little light in the darkness for those not familiar wiith the PTC.

From http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Parents_Television_Council , but available on numerous web sites. I choose this one because it was relatively short and covered the basics of the story.

Parents Television Council, a subsidiary of Media Research Center, is a group which says it is "offering private sector solutions" to remove content from broadcast media which it does not like. The Parents Television Council (PTC) president is Brent Bozell, who is also president of PTC's parent organization the Media Research Center (MRC), which issues reports of what it claims are left-wing bias in the corporate media.

In November of 2000, Media Research Center and Parents Television Council were sued by World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE) (http://www.1wrestling.com/news/newsline.asp?news=2176) after using unauthorized footage of WWE in a fundraising video and falsely claiming that WWE was incidental in the murders of four children. Additionally, PTC/MRC falsely claimed that various advertisers had pulled their sponsorship from the show. A federal judge reviewing the suit found that the advertisers in question had never sponsored WWE. The WWE alleged 13 instances of defamation, copyright infringement and interference with prospective business relations and sought $55 million in damages.

PTC/MRC moved to dismiss in June 2001, but the motion was rejected. In July of 2002, PTC settled with the WWE out of court for a sum of $3.5 million. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A41628-2002Jul8?language=printer) President Brent Bozell wrote in a lengthy public statement (http://www.philly.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/wrestling/3601388.htm?1c) that "It was wrong to have stated or implied that the WWE or any of its programs caused these tragic deaths."


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

interactiveTV said:


> The difference, and a working definition of CENSORSHIP would be helpful (...) Calling for the removal of programs from PUBLIC airwaves IS censorship.


Perhaps a working definition of censorship would be helpful ...

No, calling for the removal of certain programs is not censorship. It is speech. Even speech advocating censorship is not censorship in and of itself. It is speech.

Censorship includes the actual examination AND expurgation of content.

The PTC calling for content to be removed which they find objectionable is not censorship. When someone actually removes content because they find it objectionable ... that is censorship. OTOH, removing or editing content because you feel others may find it objectionable is not censorship either. That too is speech.

You are advocating that Tivo not present certain content from the PTC (list of suggested family programs) purely because you find PTCs speech (_edit: and/or acts_) objectionable. You advocating this is not censorship itself. However, Tivo actually doing so for this reason would be censorship. Tivo not presenting this content for various other reasons would not be censorship. However, not presenting this content purely because of a moral objection would be censorship.

I would also note that the following Tivo investors / partners / resellers have all been accused of censorship much more directly (some even hire full-time censors whos sole job is to expurgate content):

NBC-Universal
Comcast
Yahoo!
Microsoft
News Corp
Best Buy
Walmart


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> You are advocating that Tivo not present certain content from the PTC (list of suggested family programs) purely because you find PTCs speech objectionable.


No. I find their acts objectionable. You know the ones: lying, threatening, etc.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Censorship includes the actual examination AND expurgation of content.


Censorship also requires pre-screening of content by a third party. To complain about already aired content (like PTC does) is not censorship.

That word is thrown around too freely, when in fact in America there is rarely any real censorship, but editorial decisions made by those who own the rights to air material, and are free to do so if they would choose.


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## marrone (Oct 11, 2001)

I came into this thread thinking "oh, what a terrible idea".

After reading a little about it, I can definitely see the uses. Personally, I think they should go all the way with it and just set up profiles for various users...it would accomplish the same thing, but be more versatile. It would be nice to not worry if my 6 year old is going to accidently blow away my Stargate:Atlantis episode that I haven't watched yet, if he ges mad at me.

As far as the PTC is concerned, though, they can take a flying leap. 'Tis a shame Tivo is remotely associating with them. (but it seems they are merely using them as a service to provide opinions automatically, rather than have the user look each show up on the net)

Since my main machine is a DSR6000, (and my SD-DVR40 as a secondary) I most likely won't see this anyways, so to me it's irrelevant.

-Mike


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

rainwater said:


> No. I find their acts objectionable. You know the ones: lying, threatening, etc.


Fine ... do so. Fine ... say so. Even say you have a problem with Tivo partnering with them (as you did earlier in this thread).

_Note: the following isn't a response to you ... I don't want to put words in your mouth. It's a response to some of the other thoughts / posts on this thread._

Or as others have done ... say that Tivo should examine this partnership ... it may cost them customers becuase others feel the same ... it may cause negative reactions and cost them ... customers may not find this content / partnership desireable or useful ... whatever ...

That's all fine and good. In fact, as also pointed out on one of these threads, it's one of the main tactics of the PTC to do the same.

And indeed, if Tivo did / does so for those reasons ... fine. And if the KKK or NAMBLA or some of the other organizations mentioned in this thread wanted to partner with Tivo and / or present their list of suggested programming ... I would expect Tivo to reject them for exactly these reasons.

But to suggest that Tivo should use their own morality ... their own judgement ... and remove / restrict content or choices which they themselves should find objectionable ...

Well, again, I have no problem with the suggestion (free speech).

However, I do think that this particular suggestion (that Tivo excersice their own morality and judgement of others speech and acts and act on it) is advocating that Tivo itself excercise censorship and removal of choice ... the same things which people are reviling.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

dt_dc said:


> Perhaps a working definition of censorship would be helpful ...
> 
> No, calling for the removal of certain programs is not censorship. It is speech. Even speech advocating censorship is not censorship in and of itself. It is speech.
> 
> Censorship includes the actual examination AND expurgation of content.


Legally, censorship is only official government action preventing the circulation of a message already produced.

When a newspaper edits a press release, it is not, legally censorship. It doesn't constitute a First Amendment violation (prior restraint).

Hence, the need for a working definition. Legally, yours (action and expurgation) would not suffice as official government action isn't present.

I tend to like Chuck Stone's, Professor of Journalism and Mass Communication, University of North Carolina



Chuck Stone said:


> Censorship: the cyclical suppression, banning, expurgation, or editing by an individual, institution, group or government that enforce or influence its decision against members of the public -- of any written or pictorial materials which that individual, institution, group or government deems obscene and "utterly" without redeeming social value," as determined by "contemporary community standards."


Tivo's inclusion of exclusion of the PTC would not constitute "members of the public" but a very fractional subset. What gets broadcast on television to 99% of US households over a public good is another matter.

The PTC attempts to affect Goverment censorship through, what I consider to be, fraudulent means: repeated complaints from the same (and very few) individuals to the FCC. While the PTC can only indirectly effect what is broadcast, it does actively solicit government action. Does its "bully pulpit" of attacking government officials make it a de facto "agent" of the state. Probably not.

It does ADVOCATE government censorship (going back to the legal definition) of those programs (a somewhat wide and VERY popular group) it finds at fault. Whether, ultimately, the PTC will be successful will depend on many things including its perceived legitmacy.

The call for government censorship (I know using those two words together is redudant but what the heck) _is_ speach and protected. The CALL or ADVOCACY for increased censorship (because of course censorship exists and occurs frequently for moral or military reasons) is certainly an issue.

CSI, Desparate Housewives, and The OC are some of the most popular programs on television.



PTC said:


> We serve as the conscience of the entertainment industry and corporate advertisers who sponsor broadcast content.


My particular favorite is this, using two groups whose members are not very well represented by PTC members or within the programs PTC advocates:



PTC said:


> The NAACP, the Anti-Defamation League, and other groups often attempt to manipulate or alter television portrayals of, or references to, members of their constituencies. Most people do not consider these efforts censorship. Instead, such efforts are recognized as a legitimate exercise of the right to free speech. The PTC is doing virtually the same thing by raising our concerns about programming that we and our members believe is harmful.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

dt_dc said:


> However, I do think that this particular suggestion (that Tivo excersice their own morality and judgement of others speech and acts and act on it) is advocating that Tivo itself excercise censorship and removal of choice ... the same things which people are reviling.


There is a distinct difference. One is calling for GOVERNMENT interference (PTC), the other is calling for a company to act.

Whether Tivo partners with the PTC or not, due to mine or others speach, will not result in the inability to access PTC content or information.

If the PTC gets its way, PUBLIC access to certain programs (and commercials) could be effected.

Technically, even if Tivo removed PTC, judging by the feature set, consumers would still be able to input the PTC recommendations manually. More of a hassle, yes, but certainly not the same thing as elimination programs.

_ITV


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## self (Jul 10, 2002)

interactiveTV said:


> One is calling for GOVERNMENT interference (PTC)


It's also important to note several things: first, under the current administration, the FCC has (like the administration) shifted far, far to the right. And has been empowered, in the wake of Janet Jackson, to levy larger fines, and to do so far more easily. Second, the FCC is a reactive body in this regard, not pro-active -- so you can't know beforehand what will cause a complaint to be filed, or for one to result in a fine.

And, lastly, the threat alone of large fines has caused changes. Time-delayed "live" events, for example. And a cable station's decision to not show a scheduled rerun of a certain episode. (Not, I hasten to clarify, due solely to the PTC, but they were, from all accounts, a factor.)

PTC is an evil organization. TiVo now shares in their evil. And as ITV has pointed out countless times now, this was a completely unnecessary decision. Which makes it all the worse.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

My definition is from Websters
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=censor

Note:
expurgate - To remove erroneous, vulgar, obscene, or otherwise objectionable material from (a book, for example) before publication.

A few more responses ...

You misquoted me. It's "examination and expurgation" ... not "action and expurgation".
My (Webster's) definition and Chuch Stone's are extremely similar.
Neither restricts (or tries to restict) the definition of censorship to actions of the government ... there's lots of different forms of censorship. As you note, there's govermental cencorship. As Chuch Stone notes, individuals, institutions or groups can also practice censorship.
Neither restricts (or tries to restict) the definition of censorship based on legality or illegality or First Ammendment violations. Censorship may be a First Ammendment violation or not. It may be deemed legal or not.
Both definitions relate censorship NOT to the actual act of editing / banning / suppressing / etc. itself (nor the parties involved) ... but to the motivation / reasons for editing / banning / suppressing.
I do find it odd that Chuck Stone limits censorship only to content 'obscene and "utterly" without redeeming social value," as determined by "contemporary community standards."' For example, the government supressing military / national security information is often pointed to as an example of censorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_States#War_reporting_and_national_security). Sometimes legally upheld ... sometimes not ... but still censorship.
Prior restraint (government requiring license or permission before certain types of content is published) is certainly one (rather oppresive) form of censorship. It is not the only form of censorship. Lack of prior restraint is not an absolution of censorship. Forcing NBC to get permission / license before broadcasting "Faces of Death" would be prior restraint (and censorship). However, fining the heck out of them after doing so is not prior restraint ... but still censorship.



interactiveTV said:


> Tivo's inclusion of exclusion of the PTC would not constitute "members of the public" but a very fractional subset. What gets broadcast on television to 99% of US households over a public good is another matter.


I find tying the definition of censorship to the number / percentage of "members of the public" affected very odd.

If I want to get a message to my brother that "George Bush is a ______" ...

If I send this in an email from work ... and my employer, or ISP, or the goverment suppresses this email because they find it obscene and / or without redeeming social value and / or otherwise objectionable ...

Are you saying that this is NOT censorship since only two members of the public are affected? It's only censorship if I try to say it live on NBC and it gets edited for the West Coast feed (and a large percentage of the public is affected)?

That seems like a very odd definition of censorship.

If anything, we as a society often seem _less_ forgiving of censorship the less members of the public are involved ... and the _more_ forgiving of censorship the more members of the public are involved. We accept censoring NBC and preventing them from broadcasting hardcore porn or "Faces of Death" (by fining the heck out of them after the fact if they do). However, we are much more reluctant to censor a theater showing these films (even if the theater is open to the public and a public performance).

But anyway ... censorship has nothing to do with the number / percentage of the public affected (although how we view such censorship may).

Getting back to Tivo and the PTC and censorship. I would say that under my (Webster's) and Stones definitions ... Tivo not including content from the PTC may or may not be censorship. A "fractional subset" does not matter and has nothing to do with it. Numbers don't matter. Government involvement or not doesn't matter.

What makes something censorship (or not) is _why_ the content is excluded / suppressed. Not the who (beyond being a third party), where, or how ... the _why_.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> Getting back to Tivo and the PTC and censorship. I would say that under my (Webster's) and Stones definitions ... Tivo not including content from the PTC may or may not be censorship. A "fractional subset" does not matter and has nothing to do with it. Numbers don't matter. Government involvement or not doesn't matter.


Seriously, why are you so hung up on the word censorship? It's like you want to divert the attention of the truth about what the PTC is all about. You can argue webster's dictionary definitions until you are blue in the face and it doesn't change the facts.

Btw, does anyone find it so ironic that the tivo.com homepage says "It's about time. And choice." considering their new partnership with the PTC. If you don't find that ironic, then you should just read the PTC's own website.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

I think we're splitting hairs here with definitions... the bottom line is that x amount of people have negative feelings towards PTC. It's not likely a post will change another person's opinion on this. 

I wonder how many people outside the forum latched on to the PTC connection and if they'd be upset enough to cancel their TiVo subscriptions (or contact the paper). And again I'm wondering will the mainstream press pick up on this (with help?) and if so how does TiVo react. If people do cancel because of how they feel about the PTC, is that number greater or less than the new subsribers TiVo picks up from this relationship?

PTC seems sketchy and I wonder if it was a good strategic move, but it won't impact me directly or impact my relationship with TiVo. Maybe that's what they're counting on...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

DaveZatz said:


> Or it would have indicated he has better uses for his time than sparring on the forum and defending his company's choices/actions.
> ...
> 
> Hmm then again that probably would take more time and effort than responding to HDTiVo.


  But how much time would it have taken to respond to this:



> TiVo + Cable Box
> 
> How do you control what is available via LiveTV when the TiVo is connected to a cable box?
> 
> ...


before or after I wrote this...



> KidZone is going to let our 3 year olds watch the same shows as our 9 year olds and our 14 year olds. How is that an elegant, TiVo-like, solution?


Based upon this...



> In the Press Release KidZone is described as a place - singular. On the TiVo/kidzone web page a seperate list - singular - is mentioned for kids. On TiVo's Blog,
> 
> 
> > Once in TiVo KidZone, parents can use the on-screen menus to create a password and then select an age range appropriate for their household.
> ...


In a more professional way than this...



TiVoPony said:


> No, it doesn't. You've stated something as fact, for others to consume, when you don't have any information.


Or how much time to answer this...



> TiVoOpsMgr
> Samo and others, can I at least ask you to watch the demo and review the features before you cast judgment? There's far more to this set of features than morac's summary.
> 
> morac
> ...


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

interactiveTV said:


> There is a distinct difference. One is calling for GOVERNMENT interference (PTC), the other is calling for a company to act.


Ahh ... so we draw the line at government censorship. But are accepting of corporate censorship?

Some people get upset at any form of censorship ...

... when MVPDs censor PEG or local access channels
... when NBC edits Kanye West for the West Coast
... when news organizations refuse to carry stories that are critical of associated companies
... when network affiliates refuse to carry certain network content
... when search engines refuse to index certain sites
... when textbook companies whitewash certain historical events
... when the use of certain religious messages or symbols are censored by corporations
... when Best Buy and Walmart refuse to carry certain CDs and DVDs
... when certain advertisements won't be broadcast or carried or printed
... when ABC pulls a late-night host for an objectionable comment (or for that matter, many other instances where people have been fired for things they have said)
... etc.

Ultimately, it's a question of motivation that determines what is censorship and what is not. Corporate censorship _is_ admitedly rather tricky. Is it censorship or financially motivated ...

But some people aren't willing to accept / draw the line so easily / readily.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

rainwater said:


> Btw, does anyone find it so ironic that the tivo.com homepage says "It's about time. And choice." considering their new partnership with the PTC. If you don't find that ironic, then you should just read the PTC's own website.


That is indeed ironic. PTC doesn't want anyone to have a choice, except if they are the ones choosing for them.

They keep talking about how their goal is to protect children, but the shows they are targeting are almost exclusively aimed at, and mostly viewed by, adults. They use the "but it's for the children" as a thinly veiled excuse to try and force their own standards for what constitutes "indecency" (one of their favorite phrases) upon the public as a whole, including adults.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Ahh ... so we draw the line at government censorship. But are accepting of corporate censorship?


What are you saying, that corporations should not be able to make editorial decisions that they feel are in their own best interests?

However, I do think that these editorial decisions are often based on a fear of the government - hence, a sort of censorship by proxy. Most of the ones in your example are in this category, IMO.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> Ahh ... so we draw the line at government censorship. But are accepting of corporate censorship?


Please. It's called corporate responsibility. I will never buy the excuse that TiVo partnered with them and not partnering with them would be censorship. The argument that TiVo is making makes no sense to me with regards to why they picked the PTC to partner with.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

rainwater said:


> Seriously, why are you so hung up on the word censorship?


Primarily because I find it rather discouraging that people who seem to be rather passionate advocates of the First Ammendment and against censorship can then turn around and actually advocate censorship.


rainwater said:


> It's like you want to divert the attention of the truth about what the PTC is all about.


Blast away at the PTC. Blast away at Tivo for associating with them, or legitimizing them, or anything else to do with them. And scream from the tops of the hills Tivo should have nothing to do with them (if you wish).

However, when people who seem to feel passionately about limiting censorship then turn around and advocate it ... it seems ... discouraging.

I do not care to see people advocating for Tivo (or any other individual, group, corporation, or government) to excercise censorship. That certainly includes the PTC advocating the government excercise censorship either ... don't care for that either. But quite frankly I wasn't going to respond at all ... untill iTV requested a "working definition" of censorship in response to someone else saying the same (although much abbreviated) thing.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

dt_dc said:


> My definition is from Websters
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=censor
> 
> Note:
> ...


 That's a popular definition. I used and noted the LEGAL definition. I also quoted a definition I tend to like. Many seem to mix the legal and popular (and there are MANY usages so Webster isn't the end all here) and I worked with those two definitions.



dt_dc said:


> What makes something censorship (or not) is _why_ the content is excluded / suppressed. Not the who (beyond being a third party), where, or how ... the _why_.


 Technically, the only LEGAL censorship is by the government or by its agent. You can tell me what "makes censorship" but we tend to go, legally, by the Consititution and case law. Anything other than that, your definition is as good as mine or Chuck Stone. Hence, I suggested Pony give me his working definition as it differs with mine. Self-censorship is something different. I was pretty careful to distinguish between definitions and I apologize for misquoting you. It certainly was not on purpose. Busy day.



dt_dc said:


> I do not care to see people advocating for Tivo (or any other individual, group, corporation, or government) to excercise censorship]


 if Tivo drops PTC as a partner, is the content still available? Does the list disappear? Technically, Tivo is not a literary work in any sense nor would the PTC's removal from KidZone expurge the list. It would still be published for the world to see.

We can split hairs. It's not much fun but what the heck.

My opinion is clear. Agree or disagree. Companies choosing partners isn't censorship. A newspaper editing a press release isn't censorship. The FCC pulling programs off the air because a vocal minority at the PTC berates them into it IS censorship (by the FCC, not the PTC).

Whether Tivo partners with the PTC or not, it continues to be available (unfortunately but that's the 1st amendment). What the PTC advocates is censorship (by the legal definition).

The PTC: TV their way!


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

interactiveTV said:


> What the PTC advocates is censorship (by the legal definition).


No, _one_ of the things the PTC advocates is censorship.

But so what? Freedom of speech has never been an absolute right. Everyone but a pure anarchist advocates some level of censorship. Can I yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater? Can I publically advocate the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government? Can I broadcast pornography from my TV station? Can I perform my "performance art" piece that involves exposing myself to little children on their way to school? The government says no to all of these forms of "speech." That's censorship. Is it automatically bad because it is censorship?

The PTC finds certain material objectionable or obscene with respect to their values. They don't want that material broadcast. Some people or groups would be more restrictive, others less so. Somewhere along the continuum of censorship, a balance must be struck. That balance changes with society, with technology, with politics -- with the times. The PTC isn't necessarily bad or evil because they want the balance point to be somewhere other than where it is right now.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> You see HDTiVo, when you do things like this, it just makes people believe that you're up to no good.
> 
> What did you do? You took a generic comment from a TiVo employee and applied it out of context. What was your goal? To try and spread bad news about our company.
> 
> ...


TiVoPony:

To your knowledge, has anyone at TiVo made any effort in any way to correct or clarify the 1.4M subscriber figure which was published by the New York Times and repeated in Dow Jones News, and dozens of other papers across the country?

Is it TiVo's official position that the number of current subscribers that would receive the KidZone update is 'unrelated to KidZone?'

Do you think, when reading the post(s) as a whole, I was in any way unclear about the qualifications I had about posting the subscriber numbers I had seen in the publication(s)?

Do you think it was unreasonable for someone to assume that


TiVoPony said:


> The press, who have been fully briefed, now write their articles, and they are very positive regarding TiVo's effort to put more control and choice into the hands of parents. Having been briefed, they get it right, and their stories are carried throughout the country,


included such a figure, so widely published?

To your knowledge, has anyone at TiVo made any effort in any way to correct the wording of either TiVo's official KidZone Press Release, TiVo's KidZone web page, or TiVo's own Blog, which when read properly give the understanding that KidZone is a single zone for all kids in the household, rather than seperate or individual zones for each child; Other than:


TiVoPony said:


> No, it doesn't. You've stated something as fact, for others to consume, when you don't have any information.


Do you have any factual basis for saying that anyone other than yourself believes:


TiVoPony said:


> You see HDTiVo, when you do things like this, it just makes
> people believe that you're up to no good.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

at least it's never boring here...


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> No, _one_ of the things the PTC advocates is censorship.
> 
> But so what? Freedom of speech has never been an absolute right. Everyone but a pure anarchist advocates some level of censorship. Can I yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater? Can I publically advocate the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government? Can I broadcast pornography from my TV station? Can I perform my "performance art" piece that involves exposing myself to little children on their way to school? The government says no to all of these forms of "speech." That's censorship. Is it automatically bad because it is censorship?
> 
> The PTC finds certain material objectionable or obscene with respect to their values. They don't want that material broadcast. Some people or groups would be more restrictive, others less so. Somewhere along the continuum of censorship, a balance must be struck. That balance changes with society, with technology, with politics -- with the times. The PTC isn't necessarily bad or evil because they want the balance point to be somewhere other than where it is right now.


 You're ABSOLUTELY right. I find the PTC's choice of "balance point" to be anything but. Just as almost all here would find other organization's "lists" to be anything but balanced (i used the extreme example of the KKK to highlight a point).

I don't think the portrayal of _Christian_ clergy in a positive light to be an advocacy point of an organization that Tivo should support.

I've stated censorship exists already. It's the PTC's views I find offensive and I see no need for Tivo to partner with them.

Tivo isn't in the business, until now, of parterning with ANY non-broadcast organization in favor of censorship.

There are many organizations that cry out for government censors to act. I'm unsure why Tivo would partner with ANY of them. Tivo's mission is TV MY WAY and that mission seems to get clouded partnering with an organization that says differently.

A LIST is one thing. If an organization merely published a list, that would be one arguement -- depending on the organization because companies, even though they have duties to shareholders -- must also have corporate responsibility. PTC doesn't merely publish a list.

While I abhor the PTC, its right to speach is given. What the heck is Tivo partnering with them for? I have NO problem with the PTC's right to exist and advocate whatever it wants.

I do have an issue with Tivo, TV MY WAY, partnering with an organziation that advocates government censorship of TV. It seems to run contrary to Tivo's mission.

I guess that mission has changed.

_ITV


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> TiVoPony:
> 
> To your knowledge, has anyone at TiVo made any effort in any way to correct or clarify the 1.4M subscriber figure which was published by the New York Times and repeated in Dow Jones News, and dozens of other papers across the country?


You may not understand how financial reporting works. It isn't based on confirming or denying speculation printed by a newspaper.

The number printed in the paper isn't the issue. It's your expectation that a corporate entity should confirm or deny what the newspaper stated. That's not going to happen. We announce our financial results when it's time to announce our financial results. To do otherwise would be irresponsible, in both our eyes and those of the the SEC.

Regarding your repeated requests for clarification on this:



HDTiVo said:


> KidZone is going to let our 3 year olds watch the same shows as our 9 year olds and our 14 year olds.


I do admit that you and I did not take the same meaning from this sentence. I read it as "regardless of age, all children will receive the same content (in every household)". Your plurals might have had something to do with that. Unless you have three sets of twins, in which case the sentence parses correctly. Your follow-on posts do clarify that what you intended was "KidZone is going to let (a three year old) watch the same shows as (a nine year old and fourteen year old in the same house). While it's true that KidZone supports a single age range, it's up to the parent to choose the appropriate range for their household, as well as the content they allow their children to watch. There is no requirement that a three year old be exposed to programs for a fourteen year old.

Regarding the rest, yes, your twisting of my comments on this forum is unreasonable. I was very clear about that. I'd appreciate it if you take care not to misquote or misrepresent me in the future.

Now, back to discussion of KidZone.

Pony


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## surfcat (Feb 8, 2006)

Slightly underwhelming announcement from TiVo but how anyone could actually complain about it is beyond me.

I'm wondering how much more TiVo can squeeze out of their Series 2 machines.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> I asked several questions earlier in the thread which would be illuminating. In essence they are:
> 
> 1. Why were there no cable partner(s) on the podium?
> 2. What made it necessary to announce this now rather than wait for cable partners to announce with it?
> ...


After six screens of pure unadulterated b.s., let me ask YOU this question...

Why should anybody be answering your questions? Seriously. What makes you feel you have the right to demand answers to these questions? You can ask politely like everyone else.. and you may or may not get an answer. The Wall St. Journal, the NY Times, the Washington Post, the San Jose Mercury News.. they're entitled to ask.. but very often they don't get answers either. So why should you be guaranteed answers? Summary : Why are you so special? 

To be perfectly frank, I don't think you're striking the right tone. And there is no burden of proof on TIVO whatsoever. NONE. They're not on trial, except in this thread, and that's a *mock trial* if I ever heard of one.

On to the discussion at hand....................... which may in a roundabout way answer some of your questions.

I once worked at NBC television directly with Tim Winter - currently the Executive Director at the Parents Television Council. I know Tim very well and I believe they probably brought him in to rein in some of the more conservative elements within the PTC and help organize the group in such a way that their efforts are not lost in a mess of bad P.R. and bungled public events.

In other words, they brought Tim in to focus their energies where they could accomplish the most 'stuff' in line with their mission statement... and quit wasting time and money on frivolous stupid projects. (Like the WWE lawsuit etc)

And it's worth noting that when Tim Winter worked at NBC - he worked very closely with and reported in part to - wait for it.. wait for it --- TOM ROGERS. How do know that? Cause I reported indirectly up to Tom and worked very closely with Tim myself. Summary : These two guys know each other and this project makes sense.

To me - this TIVO initiative has Tim's fingerprints all over it. Tim's a smart guy and a very reasonable one at that. I know he's not an aggressive censor and I doubt he's become one in the last 2-3 years.

This is simply a great way for the PTC to help parents manage their children's exposure to television. Simple as that. As a matter of fact, this project helps reduce the need for the PTC to lobby broadcasters to change the nature of their programming in the prime time hours.

The PTC has a checkered past - no doubt about that. And they have the right to complain to whomever they choose about the programming on television and cable, same as I have the right to praise it.

At the end of the day, networks will do what draws viewers. Period. If violence, action oriented programs with adult themes no longer draw audiences.. they will be replaced with something different.

The PTC has little "real power or control" in that process. The TIVO Kidzone project gives a measure of control to parents.

Final Summary: Why people are upset about a project that doesn't affect them a damn bit is well beyond me.

John


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

interactiveTV said:


> You're ABSOLUTELY right. I find the PTC's choice of "balance point" to be anything but. Just as almost all here would find other organization's "lists" to be anything but balanced (i used the extreme example of the KKK to highlight a point).


And yet, a lot of people in the country believe that there is too much sex and violence on television, and that what could be a powerful tool for quality entertainment, education, and social change has devolved into a lurid lowest-common-denominator spectacle where oiled-up women in bikinis race to eat the most raw pig's testicles.



> I've stated censorship exists already. It's the PTC's views I find offensive and I see no need for Tivo to partner with them.


Fine. You are basically saying that you are disappointed in TiVo for partnering with an organization with whose politics you, personally, disagree. That's your point of view. But you seem to be also trying to make an argument that the choice was objectively bad, and I don't see any reason to believe that.



> There are many organizations that cry out for government censors to act. I'm unsure why Tivo would partner with ANY of them. Tivo's mission is TV MY WAY and that mission seems to get clouded partnering with an organization that says differently.


TiVo partnered with them because it gave TiVo's new feature a lot of credibility right out of the gate. The PTC are very tough critics of the television industry, and are advocates of stronger broadcast standards, especially when it comes to children's television. If they endorse TiVo's system, a lot of people will consider that to mean that TiVo's system is pretty good. TiVo also has another group endorsing the product, which adds even more weight to that consideration.

The issue of broadcast standards is not a small one. A lot of people feel that there is too much trash on TV. If the KidZone feature helps TiVo turn that potential into a market, it could make a big difference for the company. Endorsement by these groups is part of tapping that market.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> Now, back to discussion of KidZone.


Huh, what's that? 

Actually I do have a question about KidZone ...

Common Sense Media and PTC both have alternative ratings sytems. Alternative to the current V-Chip / Broadcaster ratings ...

A couple more examples of alternative ratings systems (although neither of these groups tends to have 'suggested' lists of content ... they just rate):

Family Media Guide (PVSRatings)
http://www.familymediaguide.com/index.html

National Institure on Media and the Family (MediaWise / KidScore)
http://www.mediafamily.org/

Is KidZone going to include filtering / sorting / finding / whatever by these alternative ratings systems (as an alternate to the V-Chip / Broadcaster ratings)? Or are the 'partners' only providing 'suggested programming' lists?

Just curious ...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> Now, back to discussion of KidZone.


Were we having one? I must have missed it. 

Seriously, though (and not to nag) but if you guys found a way to get a demo up on the web site, we could actually discuss KidZone with a bit of knowledge and maybe even ask some reasonable questions.


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## Leo Valiant (Apr 19, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> Now, back to discussion of KidZone.


What happens if your child is using KidZone watching an allowed LiveTV channel, and a scheduled recording comes up for a non-KidZone channel?

Are thumbs disabled in KidZone?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Leo Valiant said:


> What happens if your child is using KidZone watching an allowed LiveTV channel, and a scheduled recording comes up for a non-KidZone channel?
> 
> Are thumbs disabled in KidZone?


Derivative of the same question. Season pass priority. Let me make an example. Sopranos is #1 on SP list. Some kid's show is #3 and is on a same timeslot. TiVo is in KidZone mode. Will TiVo record Sopranos or kid's show?


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> Were we having one? I must have missed it.
> 
> Seriously, though (and not to nag) but if you guys found a way to get a demo up on the web site, we could actually discuss KidZone with a bit of knowledge and maybe even ask some reasonable questions.


I saw the comment by Stephen encouraging people to "check out the demo". I don't know why he said that, there isn't a demo for you to check out online - what we showed in New York was the real thing, running on real boxes. Sorry if his comment caused any confusion, or mis-set expectations.

KidZone is scheduled to go out the door in June. Unless you're in the beta program you probably won't see it until then (unless of course you happen to be at a press or industry event in the next couple of months).

We typically don't put up demos of products that are still in development...if we did we'd currently have Mac TTG, Series3, iPod/PSP desktop, KidZone, Comcast, and a few other things to be disclosed at a later date. 

For now you'll have to go with the descriptions that Stephen, Nova, and I have provided. There's quite a bit of info in there.

Pony


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Leo Valiant said:


> What happens if your child is using KidZone watching an allowed LiveTV channel, and a scheduled recording comes up for a non-KidZone channel?
> 
> Are thumbs disabled in KidZone?


The DVR will change channels to record your program, but your children will see a message letting them know that they can't watch live tv right now. Graphically it'll be done so that wee folk who can't read will be able to tell what has happened as well. They can press the TiVo button to go to Kids Now Playing and watch any recording from their list.

Thumbs are indeed disabled in KidZone.

Pony


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

samo said:


> Derivative of the same question. Season pass priority. Let me make an example. Sopranos is #1 on SP list. Some kid's show is #3 and is on a same timeslot. TiVo is in KidZone mode. Will TiVo record Sopranos or kid's show?


The item with the higher priority always records. But the kids won't be able to watch the Sopranos, live, recording, or recorded unless you allow it.

There may be parents who want their kids to fill up on the Sopranos. It'll be their choice to make...with KidZone the parent gets the final say as to what is right for their kids. It's not for us to judge. Well, maybe judge. But not comment. 

Pony


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> Huh, what's that?
> 
> Actually I do have a question about KidZone ...
> 
> ...


Just to clarify...we're not replacing the existing ratings with someone else's ratings for KidZone. We're offering a weekly list of programming recommendations from each organization (each org has their own recommendation list).

Parents can put shows into KidZone based on either the existing ratings, by selecting a program to record from an organization's recommended list, or by explicitly choosing to add or remove any program from KidZone (this last one takes precedence over the others...the parent always gets final say).

Thanks for the pointers to these two organizations. I'm not sure that we've talked to them yet (we're chatting with lots of folks). We'll take a closer look.

The thing about the recommended lists is that it's all designed to be flexible. We can add more organizations and lists of recommended programs without changing the software on the box.

Thanks,
Pony


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> After six screens of pure unadulterated b.s., let me ask YOU this question...
> 
> Why should anybody be answering your questions? Seriously. What makes you feel you have the right to demand answers to these questions? You can ask politely like everyone else.. and you may or may not get an answer. The Wall St. Journal, the NY Times, the Washington Post, the San Jose Mercury News.. they're entitled to ask.. but very often they don't get answers either. So why should you be guaranteed answers? Summary : Why are you so special?
> 
> To be perfectly frank, I don't think you're striking the right tone. And there is no burden of proof on TIVO whatsoever. NONE. They're not on trial, except in this thread, and that's a *mock trial* if I ever heard of one.


I think you got the wrong feel on the first reading. Go back over the flow of conversation between myself and the other poster*s*. Don't assume everything I posted was directed at TiVo or TiVoPony exclusively, or that the thread is "owned" by TiVo or TiVoPony. And save a lot of time for this purpose by skipping all the PTC posts.

Let me know what you think then.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> I do admit that you and I did not take the same meaning from this sentence. I read it as "regardless of age, all children will receive the same content (in every household)". Your plurals might have had something to do with that. Unless you have three sets of twins, in which case the sentence parses correctly. Your follow-on posts do clarify that what you intended was "KidZone is going to let (a three year old) watch the same shows as (a nine year old and fourteen year old in the same house). While it's true that KidZone supports a single age range, it's up to the parent to choose the appropriate range for their household, as well as the content they allow their children to watch. There is no requirement that a three year old be exposed to programs for a fourteen year old.
> 
> Regarding the rest, yes, your twisting of my comments on this forum is unreasonable. I was very clear about that. I'd appreciate it if you take care not to misquote or misrepresent me in the future.


TiVoPony,

Thanks for answering the question about how KidZone works. I am relieved to know my original conclusion about how it works was right. Also thanks for answersing all the other questions that recently came up from others about other details of how KidZone functions, and for answering the question I and others had about the demo.

I don't intend to twist your words. I am going to be much more circumspect in the future about how I use what you say in my thinking and my posts. Now that I know you a little more, I have a better understanding of how to judge your comments. If I misunderstand you again, please just let me know and try to re-explain.

I have edited the reference to your press coverage comment in the post about subscribers.

As for your comments to me, do you feel phrases like:


TiVoPony said:


> You've stated something as fact, for others to consume, when you don't have any information.
> 
> This section, like the quote above, is not based on fact
> 
> ...


are appropriate? Is that the kind of discourse or relationship you really want to have?

Now I can go ahead and post about KidZone with a good understanding of what it is, which was my original interest.

No hard feelings.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> ]The thing about the recommended lists is that it's all designed to be flexible. We can add more organizations and lists of recommended programs without changing the software on the box.


 Can the customized lists (I select 26 programs that are KidZone safe) be shared with other Tivos on the network or do I have to do this on each and every Tivo?

Personally, I think the feature could be very useful. As usual, still need to actually USE IT to evaluate that fully but it seems very close to a "profile" feature where different users have different access to different programs...

the hassle, of course, would be 3 kids, each with different "lists" (customized) that you then need to replicate across 2 or 3 Tivos.

One more question, will any of this be able on the web interface? Seems like doing this on the Tivo could be cumbersome depending on the number of shows.

_ITV


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Can KidZone shows be MRV'd from one TiVo into the KidZone of another on the same account?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

I need something like a SpouseZone to prevent my fiance' from interupting my recordings. It would also be nice to hide some UFC stuff which upsets her and that GirlsGoneWild infomercial in my personal area. Those descriptive KidZone graphics without much text would be useful in explaining she's been cut off.  

Oh yeah this should work both ways... I don't want to be exposed to Dancing with Skating Celebrity Idols at the Oscars. But we will need one shared area for House Hunters, Amazing Vacation Homes, and World's Most Extreme Homes.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

davezatz said:


> I need something like a SpouseZone to prevent my fiance' from interupting my recordings. It would also be nice to hide some UFC stuff which upsets her and that GirlsGoneWild infomercial in my personal area. Those descriptive KidZone graphics without much text would be useful in explaining she's been cut off.
> 
> Oh yeah this should work both ways... I don't want to be exposed to Dancing with Skating Celebrity Idols at the Oscars. But we will need one shared area for House Hunters, Amazing Vacation Homes, and World's Most Extreme Homes.


Hence the need for a general architecture that could accomodate multiple kids individually, and eventually be turned into a multi-user feature.

With what we know about it now, a SpouseZone is probably feasible. It sounds like you can custom pick everything down to the show and channel level yourself.

Just don't have kids until TiVo gives _you _ the tools to accomodate them too...


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

TiVoPony said:
 

> Just to clarify...we're not replacing the existing ratings with someone else's ratings for KidZone.
> (...)
> Thanks for the pointers to these two organizations. I'm not sure that we've talked to them yet (we're chatting with lots of folks). We'll take a closer look.


Thanks for the response.

Note that Family Media Guide (PVSRatings) is a for-profit enterprise with the intent of charging / profiting from using their rating service.

NIMF (The National Institute on Media and the Family) tends to avoid conflict by specifically avoiding 'recommended' / 'suggested' lists and just providing an alternative rating system.

Anyway, alot of criticism of the V-Chip and existing parental control systems is based on various criticims of the existing rating system (lack of impartiality, lack of specificity, etc.) ... and both 'partner' organizations mentioned do offer alternative ratings systems (I realize neither the press release nor follow-on discussion did) ... which is why I was curious.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> We typically don't put up demos of products that are still in development...if we did we'd currently have Mac TTG, Series3, iPod/PSP desktop, KidZone, Comcast, and a few other things to be disclosed at a later date.


Ok, this thread finally got interesting for me!


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

rainwater said:


> Please. It's called corporate responsibility.


"Corporate Responsibility" is a rather convenient / fuzzy term (like indecent or obscene) ... people know it (or lack of it) when they see it ...

BTW, the PTC argues constantly for "corporate responsibility" as well:
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&...tesearch=parentstv.org&as_rights=&safe=images


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

interactiveTV said:


> the hassle, of course, would be 3 kids, each with different "lists" (customized) that you then need to replicate across 2 or 3 Tivos.


From TiVoPony's description, it doesn't sound like you can have more than one list/KidZone on one TiVo. So if you wanted 3 different lists for 3 kids in different age groups, you'd need 3 TiVos.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> What are you saying, that corporations should not be able to make editorial decisions that they feel are in their own best interests?


No, I am not saying that. I was merely citing examples of non-governmental censorship. Some of which have also been held to be First Ammendment violations ... some of which haven't. Some of which concern some people ... some of which don't concern some people ...

And yes, much of which is based on a response to government censorship or sociatal censorship or architectural censorship ... and yes, corporate censorship is usually a direct result of profit / interest.

Censorship by corporations, groups, individuals, and other entities are often held to be _protected_ by the First Ammendment as well ...

I was merely citing examples.

Personally I do tend to take note of censorship by certain entities more carefully ... news organizations, media companies, information technology companies, etc. NBC is certainly free to edit Kanye West or not run a story on NBC News critical of another GE subsidiary ... I just note it and wonder what other forms of censorship they are willing to impose and whether I would look to such an organization for news and / or entertainment. But ... that's just me.

And ... of course there are (some) cases of corporate censorship that do cross the line and are First Ammendment violations (such as MVPDs and certain censoring of public access, PEG, or must-carry stations).


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Can KidZone shows be MRV'd from one TiVo into the KidZone of another on the same account?


Most likely not...the other DVR's and computers are not listed at the bottom of the Kids Now Playing list. They would still be available from the regular Now Playing list (outside of KidZone).

Pony


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> "Corporate Responsibility" is a rather convenient / fuzzy term (like indecent or obscene) ... people know it (or lack of it) when they see it ...
> 
> BTW, the PTC argues constantly for "corporate responsibility" as well:
> http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&...tesearch=parentstv.org&as_rights=&safe=images


Yeah. That's why they have lied and threatened advertisers. I don't care what they say. I care what they do.

Responsibility is not a fuzzy term. I don't buy that TiVo had to choose them because they had no choices and otherwise they would be censoring them. That is what I call fuzzy.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> As for your comments to me, do you feel phrases like:
> 
> are appropriate? Is that the kind of discourse or relationship you really want to have?


Hmmm...I was very blunt in my responses to you, but you do seem to have a knack at pursuing the most negative line of reasoning possible sometimes. If I was too blunt in noting this I apologize.

I'm encouraged by your pledge to avoid misrepresenting me.

I understand that it's easy to focus on a particular, narrow design limitation (podcasts can't pause, KidZone has a single set of settings) and throw our entire company out as a result. It's the baby and the bathwater thing...there's always the opportunity in your posts to mention the larger thing that TiVo is doing right. It's a question of tone.

Finally, don't presume that a feature doesn't work the way you want it to because the people who designed it are incompetent, slow, or lazy. It's not true, and as I've gathered from your reading of my comments to you, you understand that that approach can be insulting.

I welcome civil rational discourse. The forum used to have a bit more of it than it does these days I'm afraid. Maybe we can bring it back?

Thanks,
Pony


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

To make several KidZones for one TiVo would probably be way too confusing, IMO, at least when you only have one tuner/source to record shows with.

I've seen the requests for multiple user profiles, and while that would be great for the Now Playing part, I don't see how it would work in reality, when you are limited to one tuner, or even two tuners. You'd constantly run into scheduling issues, where users would have to choose between recording a show for User A or User B or User C. And if you wanted to keep the two truly separate, you'd end up with "blind cancel", where the user when setting up a recording that conflicts with another user's recording would just be informed that there's a conflict, not which show specifically would be cancelled. I don't think a "blind cancel" is a necessity, but the problem with conflicts between users remain.

I think with a KidZone you can solve it by simply creating a rule that says that any non-Kid existing recording will supersede a KidZone recording, based on "well, the parent has precedence". For other users, I think it would be harder. I'm curious to see how TiVo solved this.

But, as I mentioned above, for the "Now Playing" part it would be great, and simple to create.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

rainwater said:


> I don't buy that TiVo had to choose them because they had no choices


I actually did some Googling and was rather surprised at the lack of organizations that provide (regularly updated) lists of 'suggested family TV programming'.

That is _not_ the same as saying that Tivo _had_ to choose any one particular organization ... which I never did say (nor would I).

However, I do think there is some validity to the rather (suprising to me) statement that there aren't many groups offering / publishing such lists.

I noted two organizations above that provide alternative rating services. However, both these organizations (and indeed, most other 'family TV' oriented organizations that I could find) specifically avoid 'suggested programming lists' (for a variety of reasons).

Instead of doubting ... point to some organizations that do so.


rainwater said:


> and otherwise they would be censoring them


Again, I never said Tivo _had_ to include any particular organization becuase not doing so would be censorship. I said that Tivo refusing to include a particular organization for certain specific reasons (some of which were being advocated on this thread) _would_ be censorship ... while Tivo refusing to include a particular organization for certain specific other reasons (some of which were being advocated on this thread) _would not_ be censorship.

I also said that Tivo has every right under the First Ammendment to excersise certain forms of censorship ... including this particular (hypothetical) one.

Not sure where you get the "had to" part.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> I said that Tivo refusing to include a particular organization for certain specific reasons (some of which were being advocated on this thread) _would_ be censorship


That makes no sense to me. TiVo has to make that decision on a regular basis.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

interactiveTV said:


> That's a popular definition. I used and noted the LEGAL definition. I also quoted a definition I tend to like. Many seem to mix the legal and popular (and there are MANY usages so Webster isn't the end all here) and I worked with those two definitions.


There's no need to work with or mix definitions ...

You are describing government (or governmental or state) censorship. And specifically, you seem most concerned with *government censorship that results in the complete supression of particular content*.

Nothing wrong with that ...

And no, a specific company choosing (or refusing) a specific partner, or newspaper editing a press release would not be an example of either. And yes, the PTC argues for additional government censorship and, although I don't know of any examples where complete supression of content is one of their stated goals, one could certainly argue that in some cases it is an unstated goal or desired (by them) end result.

However, I would urge you to not be so dismissive / acceptant of other forms of censorship, and indeed look at the "popular definitions" and/or the definition you quoted. Acceptance of other forms of censorship can often lead to acceptance of governmental censorship ... and (perhaps most troubling) while it is very difficult to imagine government censorship alone resulting in the complete supression of particular content in our society ... it is far easier to imagine other forms of censorship (social, architectural, or even self censorship as examples) doing the same.

While a specific company choosing (or refusing) a specific partner, or newspaper editing a press release would not be an example of government censorship that results in the complete supression of particular content ... I would not be accepting of a company that refuses to partner with a particular company because it did not agree with the owners' religion, or sexual preference, or race, or politics, or some other factor they deemed 'objectionable' ... nor a newspaper that edited (or refused to carry) a press release for the same reasons ... even if it may very well may be within their rights to do so.


interactiveTV said:


> Technically, the only LEGAL censorship is by the government or by its agent.


Legally ... there are acts which are violations of the First Ammendment and those which aren't.

A particular act of censorship may or may not be a violation of the First Ammendment. It may even be protected by the First Ammendment. Not all violations of the First Ammendment are examples of censorship.

I'd be curious to know where you get this "legal" definition.


interactiveTV said:


> if Tivo drops PTC as a partner, is the content still available? Does the list disappear? Technically, Tivo is not a literary work in any sense nor would the PTC's removal from KidZone expurge the list. It would still be published for the world to see.


If certain content can not be broadcast durring the day, but can late at night, is the content still available? If certain content can not be broadcast on certain channels, but can be broadcast on other channels, is the content still available? If certain content can not be broadcast at all, but can be distributed by other media, is the content still available?

Censorship that does not result in the complete supression of content is still censorship.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

interactiveTV said:


> Can the customized lists (I select 26 programs that are KidZone safe) be shared with other Tivos on the network or do I have to do this on each and every Tivo?
> 
> Personally, I think the feature could be very useful. As usual, still need to actually USE IT to evaluate that fully but it seems very close to a "profile" feature where different users have different access to different programs...
> 
> ...


It most likely will be per DVR.

But if each of your kids has a different list, you'd have to create each one separately anyways, right?

And yes, you'll be able to select from the recommendations each organization makes from tivo.com and schedule them to record on your KidZone-enabled DVR at home.

Pony


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

The latest story critical of the PTC (in regard to SpongeBob SquarePants and it's actually a bit funny):

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/397562p-336754c.html

I wonder when these types of stories will start mentioning the PTC's connection to TiVo ?


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

rainwater said:


> That makes no sense to me. TiVo has to make that decision on a regular basis.


Yes they do. How do they make the decision ...

Company / Organization BE - BigEndians who support, promote, and believe in the BigEndian cause. Sells eggs.
Company / Organization LE - LittleEndians who support, promote, and believe in the LittleEndian cause. Sells software.
Company / Organization EN - EndianNeutral, sells software

Comapny / Organization BE does not partner with Company / Organization LE because ...

*Not censorship*:
1. BE has no business need, desire, or reason to partner with LE or buy their software
2. EN's software is better / cheaper / faster and is a quantifiably better partner for business reasons

*Censorship*:
3. BE finds LE's views, opinions and statements objectionable or contrary to their own moral standards

*Gray area to some* (I would still call it censorship):
4. BE's customers and other partners are also all BigEndians and BE partnering with LE could offend or be objectionable to them and has a potential cost
5. BE finds LE's views, opinions and statements contrary to contemporary community standards

Note: I've also seen 3, 4, and 5 referred to as "corporate responsibility". However, I view "corporate responsibility" as ...

*Corporate respnsibility* to me (aka "doing well by doing good")
6. BE evaluates and quantifies LittleEndianess and its impact on their business and industry, allowing them to objectively compare partnering with LE or EN (or not) in light of their Endian views or posistions (or lack thereof) and how such a patnership may impact LittleEndian / BigEndian issues.

Personally, I would stick with 1, 2, and 6 (and avoid 3, 4, and 5).


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Again, you are way to caught up in the definition of censorship. Not picking the PTC is not censorship. If you think it is, and you think that that is the real issue here that caused people to get upset, then there is no point even discussing it further.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Dmon4u said:


> The latest story critical of the PTC (it's actually a bit funny):
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/397562p-336754c.html
> 
> I wonder when these types of stories will start mentioning the PTC's connection to TiVo ?


What makes this story funny(to me anyway) is the ad at the bottom:


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

Good catch !


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

OK, dt_dc, I think that last post of yours was sufficiently confusing to end this discussion about what constitutes censorship...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dmon4u said:


> The latest story critical of the PTC (in regard to SpongeBob SquarePants and it's actually a bit funny):
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/397562p-336754c.html
> 
> I wonder when these types of stories will start mentioning the PTC's connection to TiVo ?


so is it censorship when they do not know what they are doing.

Please TiVo open this feature up to let other groups also use it to add trheir list. That way it just becomes more and more an active choice for the end user to decide what filter to use.

to me it is not censorship if the person who owns the device is making their own active choice on how to filter things. therefor the PTC has been given a way to express their views and let those who agree with the PTC use that expression without interfering with anyone else.

To tell TiVo it needs to drop the PTC not because the feature is bad but because you do not agree with the PTC and how they do things is censorship.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> To tell TiVo it needs to drop the PTC not because the feature is bad but because you do not agree with the PTC and how they do things is censorship.


It's not about dropping the PTC. TiVo isn't going to do that. The whole point is they shouldn't be partnering with a company who's goal is the exact opposite of TiVo's current slogan. I'm not sure how they can make the case for the PTC given what the PTC stands for. If this was an open system it would be a different story.


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## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

dt_dc said:


> And yes, the PTC argues for additional government censorship and, although I don't know of any examples where complete supression of content is one of their stated goals, one could certainly argue that in some cases it is an unstated goal or desired (by them) end result.


I've wanted to dive into this thread ... unfortunately I think that there is so much "noise" that a coherent well thought out rational discussion isn't going to be possible and I would merely look like I was continuing the "rant". So instead of a huge post (at this time) .. I'll just address the part I quoted above real quickly.

I was taking a quick look this morning through PTC's website to just look for some stuff to use in this thread .. And I found this: http://www.parentstv.org/ptc/action/fotp/emailH.htm

Again, its their website, their content and (for those who don't have the energy to follow the link, its a letter directly from Tim Winter (who has been discussed a bit in this thread). To summarize, its their view that "Father of the Pride" was an "assualt on our children". Now granted, the show sucked .. but if you read the letter, their view was that it was ILLEGAL for NBC to air it. I'm not exaggerating this by any means. It is not an unstated goal or desire .. they wanted the federal government to remove this show from being aired because it was in their view a criminal action to broadcast it.

Again, I've got a lot to say on this issue (most of it complementary to TiVo for continuing to innovate and provide options to their consumers) .. but the point I wanted to focus on in just this post .. since there seems to be some confusion about censorship and so forth .. PTC is an organization that promotes, lobbies for, and does everything it can to try to obtain Governmental censorship by trying to not simply discourage like minded people from watching a show they do not like, but trying to get the government to intercede and yank a show off the air.

Again .. I'm sure I'll have more to interject later, but I don't think posts should go off an too many tangents


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

rainwater said:


> Again, you are way to caught up in the definition of censorship.


Probably. I am also very caught up in the definitions of "freedom of speech", "fair use", "right to privacy" and a few other subjects I care about. I am also very nit-picky and argumentative about these subjects and definitions. Duly noted.

As I also noted, *I was responding to a very specific question / comment about a "working definition of censorship" and was in no way trying to respond to (or comment on) anything other than that* (something which as you've noted I'm rather "caught up" in). When responding to a question about a "working definition of censorship" ... one tends to be rather specific as to the definition of censorship.


rainwater said:


> Not picking the PTC is not censorship. If you think it is, and you think that that is the real issue here that caused people to get upset, then there is no point even discussing it further.


As I said before, I would not classify an act as censorship (or not) without an examination of motivation and so would not offer an opinion on the first point (without understanding motivation). I am rather picky about the definitions of terms I use.

On the second point, people have expressed for themselves why they are upset and what they see as the "real issue". Had I wanted to respond to these specific issues / problems / comments / complaints / points ... I would have. I agree with some points, less so with others. I think some points are valid, some not so much. Many are interesting, some not so much. I haven't responded to these other points becuase I don't really feel I have much to say that hasn't already been said (by others).

I also have absolutely no desire to defend (or criticize) Tivo's choice of PTC as a partner. Quite frankly, I don't think I give a (censored) as to whether (or not) Tivo chooses PTC as a partner (or not). Others do have an opinion ... and if I had wanted to agree (or disagree) with them ... I would have.


MickeS said:


> OK, dt_dc, I think that last post of yours was sufficiently confusing to end this discussion about what constitutes censorship...


Duly noted.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MirclMax said:


> PTC is an organization that promotes, lobbies for, and does everything it can to try to obtain Governmental censorship by trying to not simply discourage like minded people from watching a show they do not like, but trying to get the government to intercede and yank a show off the air.


and to this rational point the Giovernment can now tell the PTC to* go buy a TiVo* and have a much easier time blowing off the PTC attempts at censorship.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and to this rational point the Giovernment can now tell the PTC to* go buy a TiVo* and have a much easier time blowing off the PTC attempts at censorship.


Or on the flipside, the PTC, due to Tivo's subscription to their listings, becomes a more trusted and validated name in the industry. Thus providing more weight to their censorship lobbying efforts.


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## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

Stu_Bee said:


> Or on the flipside, the PTC, due to Tivo's subscription to their listings, becomes a more trusted and validated name in the industry. Thus providing more weight to their censorship lobbying efforts.


This is actually along the lines of where I was planning on going. The PTC makes a big deal about the number of people that they represent. Now, either they'll be given the actual number of people using their filter .. or the odds are that they'll somehow incorporate TiVo's entire subscription base as people who now have a service that uses their choices of shows. In fact, looking at their press release, they are looking "to present TiVo with the PTCs Seal of Approval, to provide a reliable source of program information, and to help them reach out to consumers who will want this product." I don't want to dig up TiVo's subscription numbers .. but lets say its another million ..That would double the number of people who they could spin are in their camp when they are lobbying the government.

TiVo, this is not the group you want to be assisting. You're making them look good. You're legitimitizing their efforts.

I have no concern regarding the technology, but as its been presented, they are 50% of the preset choices available. That means they are prominently featured.

As I have no seen the software in action, I would like to make a request for some information on this. Do these lists come installed on the TiVo .. or when you go to "Select a preset list" .. it goes to a server and lists all available lists (of which there are currently 2).

If its the second, what I'd suggest is that you come up with some guidelines to be a qualifed list and let organizations (including the PTC) choose to provide their version of what would be good content. For example, why should I not be able to generate a list for you?

My ideal solution for you would be for this to be done in a similar fashion to HME applications .. If you want to import a list, you type in a URL (e.g. : http://www.parentstv.org) and it goes and grabs "tivo.xml" or something from the root directory if it exists .. and every other day it goes and checks for updates and so forth.

That way the PTC can tell all their wonderful members to put in their URL to use their cool show filter .. and other places could do the same. It provides a TOOL to parents (and yes I am one) but does not give the impression that TiVo somehow approves of, supports, encourages, etc ... one group's set of lists over another.

I hope my comments do not fall upon deaf ears. Its really this or you should scrape together about 10 more groups who can provide lists for this service so the PTC is just one of many instead of 1 of 2. I don't mind them as a choice for those who want it, but the end result is that *clearly* they are the news with regards to this service, not the service itself .. and that should speak volumes you to.

"TiVo, TV your way, or let the PTC choose for you if you want." (Just doesn't have the same ring to it)

-MirclMax


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

MirclMax said:


> It is not an unstated goal or desire .. they wanted the federal government to remove this show from being aired because it was in their view a criminal action to broadcast it.


And this is why this entire anti-PTC censorship argument is so weak. They aren't asking for something extraordinary, they aren't trying to rewrite the constitution, they are asking our supposedly-representative, supposedly-accountable government to enforce a law that is already on the books. And this isn't some bizarre archaic law that everyone but the PTC has forgotten, it is a currently-enforced law that defines what is currently acceptable to broadcast.

(In this particular case the PTC is upset because they believe that NBC targeted the advertising of an adult-themed show at children. And they might be right.)

The constant, repetitive complaint in this thread is that the PTC is bad because the PTC believes that TV should be censored. As I've already pointed out elsewhere in this thread, every reasonable, responsible person believes exactly the same thing: there are limits to free speech that require censorship of broadcast television. So the PTC censorship related complaints on this thread really boil down to one of two things:
1) You are disappointed in TiVo for partnering with an organization that advocates a greater degree of censorship than you do, or,
2) You are disappointed with TiVo for partnering with an organization whose political ideology, while fairly mainstream, differs from yours.

In this light, the attempts to construct an argument that show that this relationship is somehow contrary to TiVo's corporate philosophy don't carry a lot of weight. TiVo worked with organizations whose participation would lend credibility to their new feature. By that criteria, I don't believe they chose badly.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> The constant, repetitive complaint in this thread is that the PTC is bad because the PTC believes that TV should be censored.


That is not my complaint at all. The PTC has every right to complain to congress or whoever else they want to about ANY show on television. However, making up lies and threatening advertisers is not the exact way they should go about their business. I'm upset because TiVo aligned itself with a company that does this. I don't care about their beliefs nor do I have a problem with a company trying to raise awareness to shows that they think are harmful to children.


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## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> And this isn't some bizarre archaic law that everyone but the PTC has forgotten, it is a currently-enforced law that defines what is currently acceptable to broadcast.


No, what they are doing is trying their hardest to (re)define the term "obscene" to suit their idiology. If it were simply a matter of them noticing bad things and reporting them like everyone else they wouldn't have been responsible for 99.8% of the complaints filed in 2003.



ChuckyBox said:


> The constant, repetitive complaint in this thread is that the PTC is bad because the PTC believes that TV should be censored. As I've already pointed out elsewhere in this thread, every reasonable, responsible person believes exactly the same thing: there are limits to free speech that require censorship of broadcast television. So the PTC censorship related complaints on this thread really boil down to one of two things:
> 1) You are disappointed in TiVo for partnering with an organization that advocates a greater degree of censorship than you do, or,
> 2) You are disappointed with TiVo for partnering with an organization whose political ideology, while fairly mainstream, differs from yours.


I disagree with your characterization of them as being fairly mainstream. Lets say they represent 1million people as they say they do. Well just looking at their "Worst of the Week" 2005/2006 .. they list CSI and L&O:SVU (SVU many times) .. Last week those shows had 28mil and 14mil viewers respectively. My view is that the mainstream thinks these shows are just fine to be on the air and are in fact in the top 20 of television programming.



ChuckyBox said:


> In this light, the attempts to construct an argument that show that this relationship is somehow contrary to TiVo's corporate philosophy don't carry a lot of weight. TiVo worked with organizations whose participation would lend credibility to their new feature. By that criteria, I don't believe they chose badly.


Your arguement fails in that your 2 choices (even after we get past the mainstream part) are not inclusive enough.

My point is that TiVo is a wonderful tool for watching television. I have proposed means (admitedly without knowing how the software works .. and I'm still hoping to get a response about that) by which PTC and other groups could USE their TiVos as a tool and provide filtering lists ... I disagree with TiVo pushing forth any group as a primary means to identify what is appropriate viewing. I think they are highlighting a specific group (by the very nature of only having two) which is what they shouldn't be doing. The focus should be the technology that groups like the PTC can latch on to and use. Instead, TiVo is (inadvertently) bringing the PTC's views into the homes of its subscribers .. and that's what I think is wrong.

-MirclMax


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> The constant, repetitive complaint in this thread is that the PTC is bad because the PTC believes that TV should be censored. As I've already pointed out elsewhere in this thread, every reasonable, responsible person believes exactly the same thing: there are limits to free speech that require censorship of broadcast television.


Whoa there, Chucky... I am a reasonable and responsible person, and I do NOT believe that ANY censorship WHATSOEVER is required for broadcast television. Why? Because the system that it is based on, subscriptions and/or ads, is so sensitive to the demands and wants of the public, such as organizations like PTC, that it would simply not broadcast material that it could not justify to subscribers and ad buyers. And if it DID broadcast it... well, that shows there is a demand for it, a demand that to them outweighs the negative publicity they are attracting. NOBODY is forced to watch anything that they don't like.

I believe there should be a ratings system. I believe the V-chip is a good invention, as is KidZone. These things are not censorship, but helps viewers make decisions about what to watch. THAT is what's needed, not for the government to decide what is "filth" and "smut" and what we the poor masses and our fragile little minds can't handle.

I believe PTC should have every right to complain and lobby for what they believe, by the way. Just like I believe that the ones they're complaining about should have every right to broadcast whatever material they see fit.



> In this light, the attempts to construct an argument that show that this relationship is somehow contrary to TiVo's corporate philosophy don't carry a lot of weight.


You don't think TiVos philosophy of consumer choice and "TV your way" contradicts PTC goals to control what people can watch? I can't see how they can co-exist. Unless PTC drops their efforts to stop broadcasts, and starts focusing on trying to make people not watch them.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Whoa there, Chucky... I am a reasonable and responsible person, and I do NOT believe that ANY censorship WHATSOEVER is required for broadcast television.


I don't think you'd say that if you had thought it through. Should an independently wealthy pervert be able to broadcast pornography from his personal TV station, including how-to lessons for the kiddies and encouraging them to try it with adults? Should terrorist organizations be free to buy television stations and broadcast their hatred, encouraging murder and mayhem, and including instructions on weapons construction? Should hate groups be free to spew their lies and distortions and incite people to riot? Should foreign governments be able to use American agents to broadcast cleverly-disguised propaganda with the intent of destabilizing our country? None of these situations is remotely sensitive to the market forces that you are depending on to regulate the medium.



> NOBODY is forced to watch anything that they don't like.


No, but since the electromagnetic spectrum is limited, it is considered a public resource. Licence to use that resource is granted by the government under the conditions that society sets. Society typically demands a certain benefit and a certain minimalization of harm to result from the granting of licenses to public resources. Just telling people who disagree with the current usage of a resource (of which they are part owner) to go soak their heads doesn't seem in keeping with the spirit of our fine democracy.



> You don't think TiVos philosophy of consumer choice and "TV your way" contradicts PTC goals to control what people can watch?


No, I don't. TiVo's slogan (which is all it is -- an advertising slogan) is used to compactly convey the idea of timeshifting and scheduling making TV more convenient. To morph it into a corporate philosophy and presume it to be the rallying cry of a crusade to make television free of all regulation seems less consistent with the reality of the company that is TiVo.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

MirclMax said:


> No, what they are doing is trying their hardest to (re)define the term "obscene" to suit their idiology.


So what? I'm trying to get everyone to adopt my definition of "obscene" (which includes any reality show that encourages people to humiliate and degrade themselves and, by extension, the entire human race, for money (unless said people are celebrities or former celebrities desperate for attention, in which case it is kind of like charity)).



> I disagree with your characterization of them as being fairly mainstream.


I didn't say they were fairly mainstream, I said their political ideology was fairly mainstream. They are typical of conservative Christian republicans, a group that includes our current president. How much more mainstream can you get? The point is that they are not some crazoid, fringe group whose ideology is so extreme as to rightly alienate the vast majority of Americans like, say, Nazis, Al Qaeda, or Rob Reiner.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

dt_dc said:


> And yes, the PTC argues for additional government censorship and, although I don't know of any examples where complete supression of content is one of their stated goals, one could certainly argue that in some cases it is an unstated goal or desired (by them) end result.


In response:


MirclMax said:


> I'll just address the part I quoted above real quickly.
> 
> I was taking a quick look this morning through PTC's website to just look for some stuff to use in this thread .. And I found this: http://www.parentstv.org/ptc/action/fotp/emailH.htm
> (...)
> but if you read the letter, their view was that it was ILLEGAL for NBC to air it. I'm not exaggerating this by any means. It is not an unstated goal or desire .. they wanted the federal government to remove this show from being aired because it was in their view a criminal action to broadcast it.


The _explicitly stated_ goal from the above link that I see is:


> For the reason above stated, the FCC should exercise its responsibility to enforce the existing law against indecency on broadcast TV between the hours of 6 a.m. and 10 p.m.
> 
> PTC web site / complaint form: https://www.parentstv.org/ptc/action/fotp/mainH.asp


Not that the show shouldn't be aired. Not that it should be yanked off the air. But that it should not be broadcast between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. (and if it is the broadcaster should be fined). They don't explicitly state that the show should not be broadcast between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m., and they certainly don't explicitly state that the show should not be broadcast on channels not subject to FCC indecency regulations (cable, dbs) or available via other media (DVD, etc) which is what I meant by "complete suppression".

They don't *explicitly* state any of that (in this particular instance although as I said, they may somewhere).

Implicitly of course ... and a possible logical result of their explicitly stated goals ... complete (and I mean complete ... not broadcast, not released on DVD, no nothing) suppression of certain content is a reasonable interpretation.


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## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> I didn't say they were fairly mainstream, I said their political ideology was fairly mainstream. They are typical of conservative Christian republicans, a group that includes our current president. How much more mainstream can you get? The point is that they are not some crazoid, fringe group whose ideology is so extreme as to rightly alienate the vast majority of Americans like, say, Nazis, Al Qaeda, or Rob Reiner.


[Oh please tell me you chose Rob Reiner because you knew he directed "The Princess Bride" (The origin of my nickname). I give you kudos if you did, I relish the synchronicity if you didn't]

[Not trying to get this thread locked for political reasons, please understand that I'm trying to divert from it ... ChuckyBox please work with me to that end]

I think the PTC .. which I would would be more accurately aligned with Christian Fundamentalists .. are an extremely vocal minority. The current political environment allows for that voice to be heard more and more. However, being louder does not make them mainstream. They are outraged and speaking up about it .. The 28 million viewers that watched CSI aren't exactly all going to jump on the bandwagon to send letters to the FCC saying that it was fine.

Their ideology with regards to what is or isn't appropriate to air on television clearly isn't mainstream or shows would get cancelled because more "family friendly" programming would get better ratings. Networks/advertisers will go where the viewers will go.

Last week's House got the "worst show of the week" because among other things it depicted "physical abnormality".

As to your discussion about "fringe" groups .. (though its not a discussion for this thread .. or board) .. my hunch is that globally speaking, and using pure numbers .. christian fundamentalists would be outnumbered by possibly (neo-)nazis and almost definitely by islamic fundamentalists (or to more directly address your comment... supporters of Al Qaeda). Please understand I'm not trying to compare/contrast any beliefs here, I'm just talking sheer numbers/population.

None of which is particularly relevent to my core point that TiVo should not be elevating any of these groups by bringing them into the homes of their subscribers. They should be developing the really cool technology that any group who wants to could make use of to customize/protect/whatever their television viewing experience.

MirclMax


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## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

dt_dc said:


> In response:The _explicitly stated_ goal from the above link that I see is:Not that the show shouldn't be aired. Not that it should be yanked off the air. But that it should not be broadcast between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. (and if it is the broadcaster should be fined). They don't explicitly state that the show should not be broadcast between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m., and they certainly don't explicitly state that the show should not be broadcast on channels not subject to FCC indecency regulations (cable, dbs) or available via other media (DVD, etc) which is what I meant by "complete suppression".
> 
> They don't *explicitly* state any of that (in this particular instance although as I said, they may somewhere).


I realize that this is not all that big of a deal since ultimately we agree about the group's intentions .. but I find it hard to believe you were reading the same page that your post referenced: http://www.parentstv.org/ptc/action/fotp/emailH.htm

While they do make points about "Family Friendly Hours" and so forth in other documents .. I don't see *any* reference to times in that letter that I was talking about. To quote from the text in question to illustrate what I think *is* explicitily stated ...



> My name is Tim Winter and I'm the Executive Director of the Parents Television Council (PTC), the national grassroots organization of nearly a million members that's leading a campaign to stop the TV industry from pumping out degrading filth on shows that are available to millions of children.


That's not to stop a particular network from airing a show on a particular station at a particular time that is to stop them from "pumping out" aka producing the shows completely. [Again, this is being said in a document about "Father of the Pride" which they really didn't like]



> We want the Federal Communications Commission to investigate this show for violating the federal law against broadcast indecency.


While that might be a perfectly valid and democratic thing to do .. as its the FCC's job to keep public networks from broadcasting "indecency" .. They are explicitly saying that the show they don't like is obscene and should not be allowed to be aired and want the government to block its (further) broadcast. They don't want fines to be levied .. they want the show off the air. [Admitedly that's more implicit]

And finally


> And we want the SPONSORS who are paying for it to stop financing the kind of TV smut that study after study has shown will lead our kids into dangerous sexual experimentation.


You cut off the finanicing .. you get rid of the show. Its pretty straight forward what their goals are.

I also find it rather amusing that "Father of the Pride" would/could be lumped into a statement of "smut that ... will lead our kids into dangerous sexual experimentation".

-MirclMax


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MirclMax said:


> I have proposed means (admitedly without knowing how the software works .. and I'm still hoping to get a response about that) by which PTC and other groups could USE their TiVos as a tool and provide filtering lists ...
> The focus should be the technology that groups [edited] can latch on to and use.


That is a very interesting technical idea. Like a Content Filtering SDK. Don't even limit it to the parent/child venue...that would have broad implications for people's ability to find and capture programing they really want. An outstanding differentiating feature for the TiVo brand.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> I don't think you'd say that if you had thought it through. Should an independently wealthy pervert be able to broadcast pornography from his personal TV station, including how-to lessons for the kiddies and encouraging them to try it with adults? Should terrorist organizations be free to buy television stations and broadcast their hatred, encouraging murder and mayhem, and including instructions on weapons construction? Should hate groups be free to spew their lies and distortions and incite people to riot? Should foreign governments be able to use American agents to broadcast cleverly-disguised propaganda with the intent of destabilizing our country? None of these situations is remotely sensitive to the market forces that you are depending on to regulate the medium.


Yup, they should all be allowed... just like they are in print. With the restriction of course (which is not related to the medium) that "hate speech", inciting riots and child pornography are already illegal - it has nothing to do with TV.

I have thought this through on many occasions, and I don't see how censorship of the media can be justified in a society that wishes to call itself free.



> TiVo's slogan (which is all it is -- an advertising slogan) is used to compactly convey the idea of timeshifting and scheduling making TV more convenient. To morph it into a corporate philosophy and presume it to be the rallying cry of a crusade to make television free of all regulation seems less consistent with the reality of the company that is TiVo.


I agree it's not a rallying cry to get rid of regulation - but it certainly is a marketing angle that they have heavily relied on, and that can be called a company philosophy, IMO. And PTC contradicts it.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

While PTC may contradict the TIVO philosophy in other areas.. in this deal.. they do not. This is about providing TV Your Way for those parents who are so concerned about what their children watch.

"TV Their Way" for them.

"TV Your Way" for you.

J


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

weymo said:


> Otherwise, I am able to filter 100% of what my kids watch; and when new shows come on, I have to get educated about them by watching a few episodes along with my kids until I'm comfortable that it will be okay going forward.


yep, a feature of Kid Zone that caught my eye was the suggestion part that would alert us to new shows that are good for kids. Still have to watch them of course for my own sense of what the show is, buit it will be cool to have a feature alerting us to new shows coming on. I just do not keep up with cartoons like I used to


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> Hmmm...I was very blunt in my responses to you, but you do seem to have a knack at pursuing the most negative line of reasoning possible sometimes. If I was too blunt in noting this I apologize.
> 
> I'm encouraged by your pledge to avoid misrepresenting me.
> 
> ...


It is good to see you are softening your tone, and I appreciate the apology.

I wouldn't want to leave the impression for anyone who hasn't read the whole thing that I actually used any of the words "incompetent, slow, or lazy;" or any synonyms of those words. I don't remember using those words in past discussions either, but if I did I'd be happy if someone pointed it out and I'll look it over again.

You won't get anything from me other than civil, rational discourse, except for the times you get humor, wit, occasional sarcasm, or fantasizing about the future. Furthermore, misrepresentation has never been a part of my repertoire.

I don't want anyone to think I have a negative view of the KidZone feature, or that I may have posted a negative view. When I question if a new feature is TiVo-like (or elegant) I am making a comparison to the very high standard which TiVo has earned at the peak of the brand's perception. Its about whether the new feature maintains that brand and the premium it has earned. Questions are not views or opinions. They are questions.

Finally, as for the tone of my posts, many of them are positive. One can look at the Verizon partnership thread for examples. I don't make any attempt in advance to balance the number of positive or negative comments; I let the flow of circumstances dictate those numbers. If an accounting of the numbers shows more negatives, that's just a reflection of reality to someone maintaining as detached a perspective as possible. My bias is limited to being a TiVo customer who likes the product and someone who diggs the digital media revolution. Every one of my posts carries a signature that I hope all read as positive regarding TiVo.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MirclMax said:


> I realize that this is not all that big of a deal


No, it's not. I (personally) just tend to be very careful when saying what a group "says" or "beleives" or "states" not to try to interpret or imply. Others are (of course) free (and encouraged) to do as they wish.

As to "pumping out" equating to _all_ production ... don't forget the "available to millions of children" part. Technically, they did include a qualifier ...

As to indecency and obscenity ... no, the FCC does NOT prevent indecent content from being broadcast. Indecent content may be broadcast between 10 PM and 6 AM. The FCC does prevent obscene content from being broadcast. Indecency and obscenity are treated differently (by Congress, the FCC, and the courts). Again, look at the complaint form the email guides you to ...
https://www.parentstv.org/ptc/action/fotp/mainH.asp

As to financing and sponsers ... well that's not government censorship (which is what I was commenting on) ... and the free market figures that all out just fine.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TechDreamer said:


> KidZone Timeline:
> 
> - Many long time respected posters (not me) and others (me) react negatively.
> - Tivo employees come on the board and tell us we don't know anything.
> ...


well actually many posters reacted negatively to the PTC being part of the anouncement.

I saw little negative reaction to the KidZone feature itself, but did see many misconceptions of what was anounced about the KidZone feature - at least in the way posts were written. Now there was a lot of neutral reaction of not needing the feature but then the wheels turned, people learned more about the feature and realized it could preahps be used to keep pron seperated from regular viewing and so forth.

TiVo employees were not expecting this intense backlash to the PTC being part of the anouncement and were trying to get discussion back to the Kidzone feature itself, with little success.

TiVo employees could not comment here on their personal feelings of PTC since that would be unprofessional.

Posters reveled in that advantage and hammered on the PTC issues which they felt passionately about but to TiVo it was just a provider of a list to use in TiVo's KidZone feature

at the end of the day the little discussed about KidZone was lost in trhe PTC backlash. Does that fit the censorship definition


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo employees were not expecting this intense backlash to the PTC being part of the anouncement and were trying to get discussion back to the Kidzone feature itself, with little success.


 Oh well. I guess KidZone discussion would be easier with a demo, more information, or an actual launch



ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo employees could not comment here on their personal feelings of PTC since that would be unprofessional.
> 
> Posters reveled in that advantage and hammered on the PTC issues which they felt passionately about but to TiVo it was just a provider of a list to use in TiVo's KidZone feature.


 Reveled in the advantage? What advantage? I, personally, don't NEED Tivo employees involved in a discussion of PTC if they can't comment on it. I also don't see any "advantage" or anyone really revelling in anything. I see some people, including me, appalled Tivo would partner with such an organization.

to Tivo it can be _just_ whatever but that's such an excuse. As I used in an extreme example, if it were _just_ a list from the KKK, would that then be OK? It's JUST a list.



ZeoTiVo said:


> at the end of the day the little discussed about KidZone was lost in trhe PTC backlash.


 What's to discuss? Many, including me, have said it seems interesting. We haven't seen the actual implementation, we've asked questions (MRV, web, etc) and gotten some answers and yes, it could be a nice feature for some. Everyone will see when it launches. When occurs NOW is a legitmacy to the PTC and a partnership between a company (Tivo) and an organization some people -- including me -- have an issue with. That's CURRENT, KidZone isn't launched yet but the partnership exists NOW. Seems more like a conversation of current events.

Nobody is revelling in any imagined "advantage". People are voicing opinions.

My point is even if one believes the PTC is bad or not (I do), should Tivo partner with ANY organization engaged in such missions? If ALL the PTC did was provide lists -- rather than its political and other actions -- it would be one thing. They don't. They are activist and, while they speak about daypart hours, in practice, they have tried to RID certain commercials and shows from broadcast, not change their times. There is also a clear religious bias I find abhorrent. Actions.

No one is revelling in any advantage. There is no "advantage." KidZone might turn out to be a great feature - we'll see when it actually launches -- in the meantime the partnership and the legitmacy occurs right now and the PTC is MORE than a list. It might be JUST a list to Tivo but that ignores the PTC's mission and actions.

I have no problems with the PTC existing. I have no problem with Tivo using lists that I don't agree with. I have a problem with Tivo's de facto support of organizations that bully the FCC, programmers, and advertisers to push a specific type of programming.

Should Tivo care how priests are portrayed on CSI or South Park? How about programs that mention abortion? Or gay rights? Is that part of Tivo's charter to help those organizations out? Or should Tivo remain a conduit, a tool. Yes, lists are helpful but the PTC is MORE than a list. You can't take the part of an organization you want and ignore the rest merely because it suits your purposes.

How about the: http://www.americandecency.org/

Believe me, if I believed KidZone lists would stop the PTC and American Decency Organization, Morality in Media, etc from trying to push their religious and rights-bashing agendas on broadcast TV, I would sit down and shut up right now. I don't see them stopping. I don't see them stopping soliciting money or going before congress or organizing letters to the FCC.

The arguement really isn't whether abortion discussion or two gay women or a bad priest belongs on TV. We have decency standards -- and the irony of which states Deperate Housewives does very will in is a whole other matter -- it's whether Tivo crosses a line between giving parents a tool -- which I'm all in favor of -- and adding legitmacy and heft to organizations.

It's not a simple conversation, as this thread shows. No one is revelling, there is no advantage. It touches on serious issues and inflamed passions. Tivo just ran into the wall at full speed. It invited this conversation by partnering with the PTC. Tivo did MORE than just announce KidZone. It put itself square in the center of all of this -- willingly -- and should be scrutinized for it. Everyone is very capable of forming their own opinions, voicing their own concerns or lack of. That Tivo employees cannot is their issue. I don't see why that should stifle the conversation.

_ITV

Edit: Fixed a formatting error


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well actually many posters reacted negatively to the PTC being part of the anouncement.
> 
> I saw little negative reaction to the KidZone feature itself, but did see many misconceptions of what was anounced about the KidZone feature - at least in the way posts were written. Now there was a lot of neutral reaction of not needing the feature but then the wheels turned, people learned more about the feature and realized it could preahps be used to keep pron seperated from regular viewing and so forth.
> 
> ...


For clarification, did you intend the entire post in jest or only the last sentence?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I agree that TiVo probably didn't expect this negative of a reaction to their association with PTC. It's obvious that the main reason it was done is because Rogers and Winters are buddies. But TiVo partnering with an organization led by a guy who talks about "smut" and "filth" on TV is not good. Those are words almost exclusively used by religious zealots when they want do describe something they feel is indecent.

And I imagine there are at least some gay people out there working for TiVo or being TiVo subscribers who can't be completely thrilled that TiVo lends credibility to an organization such as PTC with its anti-gay agenda.


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## weymo (Jan 26, 2003)

Wow. I'm really surprised at how much of a hot button item this is.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> I saw the comment by Stephen encouraging people to "check out the demo". I don't know why he said that, there isn't a demo for you to check out online - what we showed in New York was the real thing, running on real boxes. Sorry if his comment caused any confusion, or mis-set expectations.


My apologies as well for the confusion. I was referring to Pony's NY demo, and figured that there would be screens and narrative online (from bloggers and stories like the C|Net story) that people not in NY could check out.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> For clarification, did you intend the entire post in jest or only the last sentence?


well it had an overall sarcastic tone but the gist of it was how the thread seemed to me.

admittedly revel was a bad choice of word for an issue that some feel passionately about and religion's place in our culture is a hot button topic of importance on many fronts.

the last line was indeed just sarcasm


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> The DVR will change channels to record your program, but your children will see a message letting them know that they can't watch live tv right now. Graphically it'll be done so that wee folk who can't read will be able to tell what has happened as well. They can press the TiVo button to go to Kids Now Playing and watch any recording from their list.
> 
> Thumbs are indeed disabled in KidZone.
> 
> Pony


pretty graphics- yeah!!!

LOL

Seriously my kids have naviagated the tivo for several years before learnign to read. My current 'kidzone' is they pick shows from now playing with pbskids, or discovery kids, or disney logos. It's funny how they can learn by the pictures.

(oh and they hate the darn 'please wait' clock as much as someone who can read<grin>)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MirclMax said:


> ...
> 
> My point is that TiVo is a wonderful tool for watching television. I have proposed means (admitedly without knowing how the software works .. and I'm still hoping to get a response about that) by which PTC and other groups could USE their TiVos as a tool and provide filtering lists ... I disagree with TiVo pushing forth any group as a primary means to identify what is appropriate viewing. I think they are highlighting a specific group (by the very nature of only having two) which is what they shouldn't be doing. The focus should be the technology that groups like the PTC can latch on to and use. Instead, TiVo is (inadvertently) bringing the PTC's views into the homes of its subscribers .. and that's what I think is wrong.
> 
> -MirclMax


I'm a bit behind so maybe someone alreayd replied but Tivopony already said earlier in the thread that the software is engineered so they can do just what you want- allow anyone with a list to provide it to tivo. THe wont need to fiddle with the software to add other lists- the boxes will be ready for them.

Let me say for the record- I tend to theink the PTC is a bunch of lunatic zealots and I dont really want them speaking for me to the government.

that said- 
I really dont see the major deal here with the lists- it sounds to me like essentially tivo is rigging up showcases (or online) so we can select items for inclusion in our kids now playing list. In the early days tivo had a magazine showcase thingie sorted by genre that had suggestions. SOunds really similar to me- instead of Tivo providing a genre based list, these to people will provide age based lists.

There's not much differnce between tivo allowing the PTC to have a list as allowing HBO or the NFL or Pioneer to have a showcase .

I am glad they will provide a list for me to look at- maybe i'll find something worthwhile. Hec, I've looked at the HBO list about 50 times and I dont think I've found anything they suggest to be all that good an idea anyhow-LOL

Should Tivo be ferreting out all the people that want a showcase? I guess they should to a degree. Just as people have different oppinions of where the censorship line on broadcast TV should be drawn, I guess we all have differing opinions of where the line should be drawn for allowing showcases. Same sort of think could be said for commercials- which ones should the networks allow? And I'm sure there are 3,000 other examples of how we all draw the line differntly. Is the PTC "evil enough" that tivo should have drawn the line in front of their list. I dont really think anyone here is going to sway anyone else's belief on that issue.

MYSELF (and we're all allowed opinions) - I just dont see it as being all that complex as Tivo is now alligning themselves with this group. Does pony drive only cars that have had showcases, does he only have a pioneer plasma TV's, does he only vacation on carnival cruises or at disney? (maybe he does all that- lucky basterd!). Some people hate disney, should Tivo deny those showcases?

I might be naive but thats my humble opinion.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

In response to a question that basically asked if hard core porn should be free for broadcast OTA ...



MickeS said:


> Yup, they should all be allowed... just like they are in print. With the restriction of course (which is not related to the medium) that "hate speech", inciting riots and child pornography are already illegal - it has nothing to do with TV.
> 
> I have thought this through on many occasions, and I don't see how censorship of the media can be justified in a society that wishes to call itself free.
> 
> ....


And you know what- I think in a free scoiety all weapons should be legal- i want to own an M1 tank. If the government is good it shouldn't fear me and my pals with tanks trying to have a coup.

Joking aside-
I think your thoughts place you on the opposite end of the spectrum as the right wing zealots. I had a professor that once said without the extremes on the ends there would be no one in the middle....

I would suspect that the vast majority of people fit between the PTC and the 'everything is fair game' sort of folks such as yourself.


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## jimmymac (Nov 6, 2002)

Well, it looks like Tivo announcing their new pricing plan ended all the *****ing about Tivo working with the PTC.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

jimmymac said:


> Well, it looks like Tivo announcing their new pricing plan ended all the *****ing about Tivo working with the PTC.


 Well, the characterization as "*****ing" is fully loaded but I love this quote from Tivo



Tivo 8K said:


> TiVo has stepped in to solve an age old problem in the childrens television arena with the support of the largest childrens television groups in the country, Common Sense Media and The Parents Television Council.


 Tivo stepped in _something_ methinks...

Sure, PTC spends its time raising holy heck about violence on kids television but does it ever include PBS in its studies? Only if it wants to take a nice swipe...

http://www.parentstv.org/ptc/publications/lbbcolumns/2005/0217.asp

The hypocrocy of the PTC that it hasn't lauded -- and I can't find it if it has-- _once_ PBS for Sesame Street or any of the other non-violent, very educational PBS children's programming while it issues "studies" about violence and sex and...

Of course, applauding the CTW for its programming (not its financial structure) would be counter to the _religious_ mores of the PTC.

I wonder if the PTC truly should be called a "children's television group" as it seems to conveniently ignore shows from sources that don't match its religious, ethnic, and political views. Maybe it should be called a "white, Christian, conservative children's television group who wants only old re-runs of Davey and Goliath broadcast 24 hours per day". Not as catchy, I know. 

But you're right, nothing like a nice, new uproar to drown out the stench of what Tivo stepped in.

_ITV


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> In response to a question that basically asked if hard core porn should be free for broadcast OTA ...
> And you know what- I think in a free scoiety all weapons should be legal- i want to own an M1 tank.


Only if you equate writing and photography with shooting. I was talking about the expression of ideas and emotions (even the less desirable or outright despicable ones), not about the ability to kill or maim someone...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

For shows and TTG-MPEGs in KidZone Now Playing, will there be a Repeat Play option? 

This is a biggy for little kiddies.


Can a Parent move shows from one NP list to the other NP list?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Only if you equate writing and photography with shooting. I was talking about the expression of ideas and emotions (even the less desirable or outright despicable ones), not about the ability to kill or maim someone...


sorry for the bad analogy- I was trying to point out that we have rights but they have limits. I cant think of any right we have that isn't limited in some way. So if you want to make freedom of speach absolute without limits then why not make every right an absolute?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Article



> FCC Seeks Comment on Kids Rules Deal
> 
> By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 3/17/2006 9:27:00 AM
> 
> ...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

*FCC's Full Frontal Assault Assault on TV * 



> FCC's Full Frontal Assault Assault on TV
> Record fines point to a stricter FCC
> By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 3/20/2006
> 
> In a single stroke that has television's creative community seething, Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin gave notice that his agency will clean up the broadcast airwaves, starting with TV.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Can a Parent move shows from one NP list to the other NP list?


 

Shows can coexist in both Now Playing lists.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Shows can coexist in both Now Playing lists.


So what about Repeat Play?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> So what about Repeat Play?


You mean being able to watch a show more than once? I'm not positive how that's handled. Pony did explain to me shows/passes have the same sort of expiration config options as 'regular' Season Passes, so I assume it can be watched until it expires - unless it's set to KUID (the I maybe should be a P).


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

davezatz said:


> You mean being able to watch a show more than once? I'm not positive how that's handled. Pony did explain to me shows/passes have the same sort of expiration config options as 'regular' Season Passes, so I assume it can be watched until it expires - unless it's set to KUID (the I maybe should be a P).


Nah, Repeat Play...set a show to play over and over again, in a loop.

Most people who've actually seen children know this is the most essential feature for parental survival since the invention of the Nanny.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

HDTiVo, I couldn't agree more. Not only repeat play, but the ability to set a playlist would be greatly appreciated. There's only so many times I can take seeing the same episode of "The Wiggles" repeated... 

By the way, the article "FCC's Full Frontal Assault on TV" you quoted above is depressing. I find it quite appalling that the government regulates good taste.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MickeS said:


> HDTiVo, I couldn't agree more. Not only repeat play, but the ability to set a playlist would be greatly appreciated. There's only so many times I can take seeing the same episode of "The Wiggles" repeated...
> 
> By the way, the article "FCC's Full Frontal Assault on TV" you quoted above is depressing. I find it quite appalling that the government regulates good taste.


Oh, go get unreasonable  Playlists! Try watching the Hoober Bloob Highway 37 times.

I thought the articles were reasonably pertinent to the air around KidZone. I wondered if "Children Now" or the Childrens Media Policy Coalition were also among the KidZone interested parties...and what are Children Now and the Childrens Media Policy Coalition? 



> Patti Miller, VP of Children Now, one of the activist groups insturmental in the deal, was urging the public to support it. "We are hopeful that the public will recognize that the rule revisions recommended by the Childrens Media Policy Coalition and representatives from the broadcast and cable industries are of tremendous benefit to children," she said Friday.


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## winian (Feb 5, 2004)

What I want is a way to lock my toddler out of the controls so he can't delete settings or my shows.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Clinton Headlines Beyond Indecency


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