# Thoughts on Xbox One & Tivo



## Ron DeGumbia

I'm curious as to how the hdmi pass thru will function on the Xbox One as far as using the Tivo. The voice commands on the Xbox one seem pretty neat, but I love my Tivos. I really hope they will work seamlessly.


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## alarson83

Ron DeGumbia said:


> I'm curious as to how the hdmi pass thru will function on the Xbox One as far as using the Tivo. The voice commands on the Xbox one seem pretty neat, but I love my Tivos. I really hope they will work seamlessly.


Its going to use an IR blaster with HDMI passthrough so we'll see how well that works.


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## sicariis

It may be quick at switching modes, but the delay it will have on switching channels using IR blasters will be painful as Im not aware of any Comcast STBs that support HDMI CEC, maybe their new X1 platform does. 

I am interested to see how the XBOX One guide, recording, DVR management all interfaces with cable co DVRs, not sure there is any way it can be a seamless solution when your relying on communication with a secondary box that are notorious for their poor software and lackluster performance. Seems it may end up in a Google TV type of situation where only one provider fully supports the integration potential, while all others are left with a hacky implementation that relies heavily on which direction the wind blows when the IR blaster fires its signals.


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## aaronwt

alarson83 said:


> Its going to use an IR blaster with HDMI passthrough so we'll see how well that works.


I'm guessing it would work like google TV did. It had an HDMi pass through as well.


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## slowbiscuit

And probably be another bust like GoogleTV (for those features, not as a game/streamer console).


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## aaronwt

Well hopefully the TiVo Series 5 will have the capability to be controlled over HDMI. If so I would definitely like to try using it with the Xbox One.



But if it can't be used to easily watch the recorded content on the TiVo, then I guess I won't even bother with it.


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## dianebrat

They don't need to do an ir blaster if they can do network control, that would be a smart move.

However DVR connectivity has been very conspicuously absent in the product discussion so far.


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## Dan203

Even with network control there is no way it could control the full functionality of the TiVo so you'd still need to use the TiVo UI for most things. It might be able to change the channel on live TV and maybe schedule a one off recording, but that's about it. So basically you'd be using it as an A/V switch box.


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## dbtom

It would be real nice if they made a TiVo app for the 360 like the iPad app. Presumably that app could also easily be ported to Windows 8 /rt. Unfortunately there just aren't enough TiVo's out there for Microsoft to build specific network controls. But if the platform were open enough so TiVo or others could build it could be pretty exciting.


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## mikeyts

I just don't see the point. Why view and control my TiVo via an Xbox when I can view and control my TiVo via the TiVo GUI? If the Xbox had a tuner and a CableCARD slot (or some other authorization/security mechanism) and could function as a DVR itself that would useful but this HDMI pass-thru just seems like stupid console tricks.


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## aaronwt

mikeyts said:


> I just don't see the point. Why view and control my TiVo via an Xbox when I can view and control my TiVo via the TiVo GUI? If the Xbox had a tuner and a CableCARD slot (or some other authorization/security mechanism) and could function as a DVR itself that would useful but this HDMI pass-thru just seems like stupid console tricks.


It certainly makes no sense to put a cable card slot in the XBOne. Cable cards are an extremely niche product for non cable company devices. And the only reason they are in a bunch of cable company boxes is because they were forced to use them.


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## atmuscarella

aaronwt said:


> It certainly makes no sense to put a cable card slot in the XBOne. Cable cards are an extremely niche product for non cable company devices. And the only reason they are in a bunch of cable company boxes is because they were forced to use them.


I agree there is no reason for Microsoft to put a cable card slot into XBOne but there is also no reason Microsoft couldn't sell add on software for the XBOne that provides functionality equivalent to Windows Media Center and works with external (USB and/or Networked) third party cable card and OTA tuners.

Regarding the pass through HDMI abilities I understand that, it allows Microsoft to obtain viewing data, insert Microsoft services and provides an option for the people who seem to have problems with changing inputs to switch between devices.


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## Dan203

atmuscarella said:


> I agree there is no reason for Microsoft to put a cable card slot into XBOne but there is also no reason Microsoft couldn't sell add on software for the XBOne that provides functionality equivalent to Windows Media Center and works with external (USB and/or Networked) third party cable card and OTA tuners.


They said it has a away to run Windows so that might be possible. Not sure if there is much of a market for it though.


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## riz

mikeyts said:


> I just don't see the point. Why view and control my TiVo via an Xbox when I can view and control my TiVo via the TiVo GUI? If the Xbox had a tuner and a CableCARD slot (or some other authorization/security mechanism) and could function as a DVR itself that would useful but this HDMI pass-thru just seems like stupid console tricks.


Well for starters "xbox: pause" and "xbox play" works really well in its current 360/kinect form...Xbox One looking to up the ante quite a bit with overaly control, vocie commands, gestures with any box, not just TiVo.

Simple one way commands like pause, play, fast forward etc work extremely well and are not 'Siri' like in any way. With siri you talk, she talks back, u talk again half the time. Slow, annoying, not cool at all...

Simple commands like "xbox pause" is pretty awesome and totally convenient (imo)

My thread in the Premiere forums: Voice activated Tivo, via Xbox One... whataya guys think?


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## TrooperOrange

I was wondering the exact same thing.

On first blush I was thinking "Oh man, this will be great, when will they talk about DVR functionality" ... then I realized they don't have any tuner, or near big enough HDD for the xbox to be a DVR, so then I though "well maybe they'll talk about DVR integration" ... nope.

So then after the press conference I googled around. It is using an IR blaster as people have mentioned. Talk about half assed.

Why would I want an xbox UI over top of my tivo UI, use voice for some stuff, but not 90% of what we do in my house which is pre-recorded shows.

I found this article, that pretty much sums up my sentiments: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/21/4...xbox-one-microsoft-didnt-learn-from-google-tv

At this juncture I don't see the point of the TV functionality of the xbox. My harmony will just as easily switch inputs to a PS 4 or Xbox, or Steam Big Picture box or whatever just as easy as saying "xbox, tv".

Having worked with IR blasters in the past, talk about error prone.

I was disappointed to be frank. (does it show? lol) I would pay good money for a true all in one box for blu ray, streaming, gaming, and DVR/tuners.


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## TrooperOrange

Something just dawned on me.

Could it be possible MS has IP TV up their sleeve and just hasn't announced yet?

Far fetched, pipe dream, I know.


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## riz

^^^ thx for the article.. hmm, pretty bummed now too.. I dont watch live tv very often but wanted the voice commands... TiVo Series 5 will have to answer the call then 

TiVo: pause

TiVo: play

TiVo Pretty Please


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## mikeyts

TrooperOrange said:


> Something just dawned on me.
> 
> Could it be possible MS has IP TV up their sleeve and just hasn't announced yet?
> 
> Far fetched, pipe dream, I know.


I think that they had an Xbox 360 IPTV service available in other countries.


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## dirtyvu

that Verge article is wrong on a number of fronts. he's using his Google TV experience and basing his opinion on that experience (and don't forget, Patel was pushing Google TV hard to anyone that would listen to him since his Engadget days). He didn't give up on his Google TV until his readers kept deluging him with posts saying how crappy Google TV was.

the Kinect is acting as the IR blaster in this case. in case you can't use the HDMI connection. this isn't your tape-the-IR-blaster thing that you grew up on.

google cnet kinect ir blaster. that's a good article on the potential. yeah, it's potential but that's better than conjecture based on Google TV.


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## wco81

Gimmick.

Anyways, they want the X1 to aggregate all your sources rather than your AV receiver?

One reason is so that it's always on and Kinect can be used in new ways to collect data.

Someone said watching certain programming, verified by Kinect, would earn you some Xbox Achievement points.


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## Dan203

I still don't really see a purpose, at least not for a TiVo user. Unless it has the ability to completely control the TiVo UI, which I don't think is really possible with IR blasters and no bidirectional communication, then TiVo users would really only ever use it as an HDMI pass through, if that. For a standard cable box user, which is actually watching live TV, I could see some value in it. But for a TiVo user it's pretty useless.


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## wco81

I was kind of hoping that they'd integrate DVR functions as some rumors indicated.

But I guess they're hoping that gestures and voice will be the new UI paradigm for TV.


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## dianebrat

As far as I've seen, there's been no comments as to how and even if the XboxOne will deal with a DVR, all we've seen is TV, and we still don't know the source of the signal, was it OTA? a cable STB? an HDHomerun? (wishful thinking). If you go by the numbers, 50% of US homes have a DVR, and so far zero feedback on how the XboxOne will deal. 

If you then assume the DVR and Xbox are on the primary set in the house, the quandry of exactly what TV device the Xbox is controlling and how becomes a big question mark. This would have been easy from 1998 to 2005 when everyone had analog in the cable system.


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## Dan203

I think what they plan to do is integrate their own guide and allow it to change the channel on a simple cable or DSS box. There is no way they could properly interact with a DVR without bidirectional communication.


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## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> I think what they plan to do is integrate their own guide and allow it to change the channel on a simple cable or DSS box. There is no way they could properly interact with a DVR without bidirectional communication.


Why would you need bi-directional communication. It should still be able to do basic things like go to the my Shows list, then you tell it to go up or down a certain number of titles then play. No idea though but I figure anything you can use a remote for, it should be able to work with it.

I have no idea how I woul duse it though. I've not used my receiver to switch my devices in many years since I've been using external video scalers/processors for a long time. I've typically used one input on my receiver. So I have no idea how all this would integrate with the XBOne.

And now that I think about it, because of 3D I don't even run video through my receiver any more, since my receiver is too old to handle 3D. So I just send HDMI audio to it from my iScan Duo.


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## Dan203

I guess if you want to navigate the TiVo using voice or hand gestures then it should be possible. But it would not be possible for them to schedule recordings from their guide or play a recording directly from their UI without some sort of bidirectional communication letting them know that the TiVo is doing what they expected. Using some elaborate macro to move around in the TiVo UI would be prone to errors, which could end up deleting recordings, and would not be effective anyway because the way you navigate to a recording depends on whether you have groups enabled, the sorting option, etc....


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## mikeyts

They have bi-directional communication with TiVo if they want it, via IP control. Without that they can't display what recordings are available or select one to play, though they could set up new recordings.


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## Dan203

mikeyts said:


> They have bi-directional communication with TiVo if they want it, via IP control. Without that they can't display what recordings are available or select one to play, though they could set up new recordings.


IP control is only one direction. It's basically the same IR commands sent by a remote just sent via IP. It does not communicate any state information back to the host. So really it's no better then using IR except that it's more reliable.

Now TiVo has something called the mindrpc interface which is bidirectional and is what other TiVos and the iPad app use to communicate with a TiVo. However it is not publicly documented anywhere. Forum member moyekj has done a good job reverse engineering it and using it in kmttg, but no commercial product is going to use it unless TiVo releases an official SDK.


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## mikeyts

Dan203 said:


> IP control is only one direction. It's basically the same IR commands sent by a remote just sent via IP. It does not communicate any state information back to the host. So really it's no better then using IR except that it's more reliable.


Say what??? The Series3 had a web server with which you could examine the "Now Playing" list; your My TiVo web page will let you peruse your My Shows and To Do lists and there are TiVo-created Android and iOS apps which will display the My Shows list and let you start playing a selected recording or delete it if you want (you can perform all of the functions in those apps that you can in TiVo's on screen UI, including "Watch Now", "Explore", "Season Pass", "Delete" and "Upcoming"). You can also use it to create new recording requests and Season Passes as well as to manage your Season Pass and To Do lists.


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## Dan203

mikeyts said:


> Say what??? The Series3 had a web server with which you could examine the "Now Playing" list; your My TiVo web page will let you peruse your My Shows and To Do lists and there are TiVo-created Android and iOS apps which will display the My Shows list and let you start playing a selected recording or delete it if you want (you can perform all of the functions in those apps that you can in TiVo's on screen UI, including "Watch Now", "Explore", "Season Pass", "Delete" and "Upcoming"). You can also use it to create new recording requests and Season Passes as well as to manage your Season Pass and To Do lists.


The web page is something hosted on the TiVo itself. All you're getting in your browser is HTML the TiVo generated. There is an HTTP protocol that will serve up a list of all the shows in My Shows via XML but the only good that does is allow you to download shows via TiVoToGo.

The interface used by the iOS and Android apps is the mindrpc interface I mentioned. It is not currently available to the public. One of the members of this forum has done extensive work to reverse engineer it for a program called kmttg, and there may even be a few other apps that use it, but it's not publicly documented or available for licenses, so there is no chance Microsoft will be using it in the XBox One.

The only other IP interface is an IP control interface will basically allows you to send remote control commands via the network. It has a few commands that are not on a typical TiVo remote, but it's unidirectional. It does not allow the host device to know what state the TiVo itself is in.

The ONLY way this could be done is via mindrpc. And unless TiVo and MS have some special deal setup to allow them access to it I highly doubt that's going to happen.


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## siratfus

If XBOX one took cable cards, and has XBOX MINI (equivalent to tivo mini) I would say goodbye to tivo. LOL!


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## JosephB

I'm actually excited for the Xbox One. I think everyone has a different idea about what they would like the Xbox One to be, what Microsoft would like it to be, and what it actually is.

First off, the XB1 doesn't have DVR functionality and doesn't even advertise it. When they talk about DVR on XB1, they are talking about the video game DVR functionality which allows you to record yourself playing a game and then share it online. They're not talking about TV DVR functionality.

As far as the "one guide" it would be awesome if you could integrate your DVR recordings, but obviously that's not possible, and I don't even think Microsoft wants to go down that route. Given the fact that they sold off their IPTV division (which powers U-Verse and is the reason you can use an Xbox 360 as a U-Verse STB) I don't think linear TV is really on their radar anymore. The whole reason behind the HDMI passthrough is simply so that your Xbox is always on, and you can always be invited to a game. You don't have to choose "am I going to watch TV or am I going to wait for my friends to get online?". Also, it makes it seamless to swap between your TV service and the video services on the Xbox. 

You're going to need to keep your remote around to use your DVR, but the Xbox One Guide will be nice for live TV, and especially nice for having quick access to basically everything you will want to do on the same input of your TV. TiVo for your DVR, podcasts, Amazon, etc, and Xbox for Netflix, ESPN, HBO, and gaming. It's basically the best that we're going to get in a world of cablecards and dish and directv being proprietary services.


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## Dan203

JosephB said:


> As far as the "one guide" it would be awesome if you could integrate your DVR recordings, but obviously that's not possible


Actually it is possible. TiVo has an entire API for controlling the functionality of a TiVo from a remote application. It's what the iPad app uses, it's what kmttg uses, it's probably what the Mini uses. If MS really wanted to integrate the XB1 with TiVo they could do it. They probably wont, but they could.


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## siratfus

JosephB, I can't conceptualize the set-up yet. For example, is this correct.. Moca goes into cable box or tivo, and from there, you "OUT" it into the Xbox's "IN" input?

From the demos I see, when they switch to live tv, they are still within the XBOX app. Wouldn't that render the tivo remote useless? Would have to still change inputs completely in order to use TIVO remote, correct?


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## Dan203

The XB1 has an HDMI passthough port with overlay ability. So you plug the HDMI cable from the TiVo to the HDMI-In on the XBox and then the HDMI-Out on the XBox to the TV. You can then watch the TiVo through the XBox and it can overlay a guide on the signal or squish it down into a little window, etc...


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## mikeyts

siratfus said:


> JosephB, I can't conceptualize the set-up yet. For example, is this correct.. Moca goes into cable box or tivo, and from there, you "OUT" it into the Xbox's "IN" input?
> 
> From the demos I see, when they switch to live tv, they are still within the XBOX app. Wouldn't that render the tivo remote useless? Would have to still change inputs completely in order to use TIVO remote, correct?


AFAICT they're not going to support control of DVR functions so you'd need your TiVo IR or RF commands for those. It should be interesting seeing how well the two meld.


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## wco81

MS wanted a gimmick, like the motion control that made the Wii a big hit.

So they built it around the Kinect and this new version has the ability to track you in the dark, measure your heart rate, etc.

So how do they get you to keep it on all the time? They have this HDMI In, so that it's the last device in the chain before your TV, like the AV receiver is for many people..

That means you never switch it off and it's on your primary HDMI input of your TV.

Why? So that they can track you for ad purposes. They want to see how you respond to ads and they want to sell that data to advertisers.

So what is the hook for people to leave their consoles on? Voice commands for changing channels is basically it. They can't control more advanced functions, like telling your DVR to set up a series pass or pad a recording by 5 minutes.

Initially they said you can't turn off the Kinect or the Xbox One won't work. There was a huge uproar and they backed off, saying you can unplug it now and still play games.

However, there's some uncertainty that it will have an active mic, waiting for commands.

So it may not be completely off.

In any event, if you route a TV box through your Xbox One before reaching the TV, will you get Dolby Digital decoding?


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## mikeyts

wco81 said:


> Initially they said you can't turn off the Kinect or the Xbox One won't work. There was a huge uproar and they backed off, saying you can unplug it now and still play games.
> 
> However, there's some uncertainty that it will have an active mic, waiting for commands.
> 
> So it may not be completely off.
> 
> In any event, if you route a TV box through your Xbox One before reaching the TV, will you get Dolby Digital decoding?


You can leave the Kinect in the box if you want to eschew its functionality completely because you're uncomfortable with it. You can be pretty much sure that its not on then . Even then you can run your TV tuning STB into the Xbox's HDMI in.

I don't know about DD decoding. It believe that it will take the TV tuner's audio output and blend other things into it, like maybe audible indicators of things like incoming Skype calls and multiplayer games that you're waiting to come together being ready to join.


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## aaronwt

mikeyts said:


> You can leave the Kinect in the box if you want to eschew its functionality completely because you're uncomfortable with it. You can be pretty much sure that its not on then . Even then you can run your TV tuning STB into the Xbox's HDMI in.
> 
> I don't know about DD decoding. It believe that it will take the TV tuner's audio output and blend other things into it, like maybe audible indicators of things like incoming Skype calls and multiplayer games that you're waiting to come together being ready to join.


To blend in any other audio the DD has to be decoded first. Then either sent out as PCM or re-encoded back to DD(or DTS).


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## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> Actually it is possible. TiVo has an entire API for controlling the functionality of a TiVo from a remote application. It's what the iPad app uses, it's what kmttg uses, it's probably what the Mini uses. If MS really wanted to integrate the XB1 with TiVo they could do it. They probably wont, but they could.


Right, but to do it "the right way" they would need to partner with TiVo and get permission and assurances that the API won't change and so forth. I have to think TiVo probably wouldn't be open to such an arrangement. For it to be "possible" in the world of Microsoft's thinking, there would need to be a standard way to interact with ALL dvrs and set tops so they didn't have to try to support the dozens of different ones out there. As it stands now, for channel changing and power on/off, all they have to do is specialize the IR codes the box uses. Everything else is the same no matter who your provider is. Given that they sold off Mediaroom (their division that created the software that runs U-Verse) it's obvious that Microsoft thinks this will only be temporary and eventually you'll get all your TV through an app on the Xbox itself, kind of like the TWC app. It's not a stretch to imagine the NEXT Xbox not having HDMI passthrough.



siratfus said:


> JosephB, I can't conceptualize the set-up yet. For example, is this correct.. Moca goes into cable box or tivo, and from there, you "OUT" it into the Xbox's "IN" input?
> 
> From the demos I see, when they switch to live tv, they are still within the XBOX app. Wouldn't that render the tivo remote useless? Would have to still change inputs completely in order to use TIVO remote, correct?


The way it works is this: Disconnect the HDMI cable from your TiVo or cable/satellite set top from your television and connect it to the HDMI IN on the Xbox One. Then, you connect an HDMI cable from your Xbox One to your TV (or AV receiver, as the case might be). The Xbox One has an IR blaster in the Kinect sensor, so it can send IR commands that way. It also has a port on the back to connect an old TiVo-style or Slingbox-style IR blaster if needed.

The Xbox "overlays" it's output on top of whatever is coming out of your TiVo. You can change channels with the Xbox ("Xbox Tune ESPN") and it will blast the channel numbers out over IR. It cannot control the DVR functions, so you would still use your TiVo remote to pause/rewind and navigate your recordings or any other TiVo functionality outside of changing channels (and, you could change channels with the remote if you wanted, no reason your remote would stop working).



wco81 said:


> In any event, if you route a TV box through your Xbox One before reaching the TV, will you get Dolby Digital decoding?


This is interesting. I haven't heard one way or another, but it is supposed to work with passing through 3D and 1080p/24, so one would think so.


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## siratfus

mikeyts said:


> AFAICT they're not going to support control of DVR functions so you'd need your TiVo IR or RF commands for those. It should be interesting seeing how well the two meld.


The tivo is always on and it'll be next to the xbox one, we can just use our tivo remote and change the channels, go to tivo menu, record, etc. There will just be a delay for all the commands.

Is this assumption correct?


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## JosephB

siratfus said:


> The tivo is always on and it'll be next to the xbox one, we can just use our tivo remote and change the channels, go to tivo menu, record, etc. There will just be a delay for all the commands.
> 
> Is this assumption correct?


Yes, except that an engineer from the Xbox team has said the delay introduced will be imperceptible. He says he plays his Xbox 360 connected through the Xbox One passthrough.


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## slowbiscuit

IR Blasters = kludged up crappy setup. Always have been, always will. This passthrough functionality will be used by 0.001% of the gamer pop, and without the WMC extender code it's pretty much useless to me.


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## Dan203

JosephB said:


> Right, but to do it "the right way" they would need to partner with TiVo and get permission and assurances that the API won't change and so forth. I have to think TiVo probably wouldn't be open to such an arrangement. For it to be "possible" in the world of Microsoft's thinking, there would need to be a standard way to interact with ALL dvrs and set tops so they didn't have to try to support the dozens of different ones out there.


TiVo is pretty much the only retail DVR in existence. There is no way the MSO only DVRs from Motorola, SA, Dish, etc... are going to expose a control API. So partnering with TiVo to off a full control scenario would benefit both companies. It would give MS the ability to say they support full DVR functionality through the pass through, convincing more people to hook it up that way and leave it on all the time. And for TiVo it would potentially convince a few XB1 owners to dump their cable DVR and buy a TiVo instead.

Now whether or not they'll actually do it I think depends on how much bad blood there is between the companies from the lawsuits.


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## siratfus

slowbiscuit said:


> IR Blasters = kludged up crappy setup. Always have been, always will. This passthrough functionality will be used by 0.001% of the gamer pop, and without the WMC extender code it's pretty much useless to me.


But then wouldn't those folks favor PS4 more? I think people who want the XBOX One will want to tinker with this stuff.


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## Dan203

siratfus said:


> But then wouldn't those folks favor PS4 more? I think people who want the XBOX One will want to tinker with this stuff.


People aren't going to buy an XB1 over a PS4 just because of this stuff. Most people who favor the XBox platform do so because they prefer the online experience and/or the controller. This added stuff is all cool on paper, but I seriously doubt many users are actually going to be swayed over to buying an XB1 just because of it.


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## Grakthis

wco81 said:


> MS wanted a gimmick, like the motion control that made the Wii a big hit.
> 
> So they built it around the Kinect and this new version has the ability to track you in the dark, measure your heart rate, etc.
> 
> So how do they get you to keep it on all the time? They have this HDMI In, so that it's the last device in the chain before your TV, like the AV receiver is for many people..
> 
> That means you never switch it off and it's on your primary HDMI input of your TV.
> 
> Why? So that they can track you for ad purposes. They want to see how you respond to ads and they want to sell that data to advertisers.
> 
> So what is the hook for people to leave their consoles on? Voice commands for changing channels is basically it. They can't control more advanced functions, like telling your DVR to set up a series pass or pad a recording by 5 minutes.
> 
> Initially they said you can't turn off the Kinect or the Xbox One won't work. There was a huge uproar and they backed off, saying you can unplug it now and still play games.
> 
> However, there's some uncertainty that it will have an active mic, waiting for commands.
> 
> So it may not be completely off.
> 
> In any event, if you route a TV box through your Xbox One before reaching the TV, will you get Dolby Digital decoding?


How comfortable is it to wear tinfoil all day? I mean, it can't let much air through, so your head can't breathe very well... and plus, doesn't it make a lot of noise when you move around?


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## Grakthis

Dan203 said:


> People aren't going to buy an XB1 over a PS4 just because of this stuff. Most people who favor the XBox platform do so because they prefer the online experience and/or the controller. This added stuff is all cool on paper, but I seriously doubt many users are actually going to be swayed over to buying an XB1 just because of it.


So, I compared the PS4 to a PC and said "My PC is just flat out better." So I am not buying a Ps4.. yet.

I compared the Xbox One to my PC and said "The XBox one does a whole bunch of media stuff, and the kinect voice control and motion control is cool..."

And so I got an Xbox One.

The superior gaming platform is the PC. If you don't like the extra stuff, there's no reason to get either console.

edit: to be clear, I am not just talking about the video overlay... but that is ONE part of it. I am talking about the video overlay and the camera and the voice command, etc.

i doubt I will use the one guide stuff, but you never know. Mostly I am expecting to just be able to use the side-by-side and other video overlay capabilities.


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## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> TiVo is pretty much the only retail DVR in existence. There is no way the MSO only DVRs from Motorola, SA, Dish, etc... are going to expose a control API. So partnering with TiVo to off a full control scenario would benefit both companies. It would give MS the ability to say they support full DVR functionality through the pass through, convincing more people to hook it up that way and leave it on all the time. And for TiVo it would potentially convince a few XB1 owners to dump their cable DVR and buy a TiVo instead.
> 
> Now whether or not they'll actually do it I think depends on how much bad blood there is between the companies from the lawsuits.


I think the evidence points to Microsoft not really caring that much. If it were that important to them, they would have 1) not dropped MCE support 2) probably not sold off their Mediaroom division and 3) they could easily have partnered with someone like Ceton to sell a CableCard add-on tuner.

If having a real, honest to god DVR fully integrated was truly important, they would have an add-on tuner, manage the recording and whatnot on the Xbox, and not give up the interface of that part of it to a third party. What incentive do they have to work with TiVo, giving TiVo control over part of the experience? What incentive would TiVo have, giving up just about the entire TiVo experience to Microsoft?

Microsoft has obviously decided to give up on the vision of being part of the base TV experience and to focus on IP-delivered video content via app partners, especially since it's apparent that's the direction the providers want to take. They have FiOS and TWC on their boxes with zero additional hardware costs, zero installation hassles, and with the full cooperation of the video providers. Contrast that with the TiVo method which relies on a poorly supported system, openly hostile service providers that are only supporting it because of legal requirements, and involves significant hardware costs.

There's currently a hole in the "app" delivery method, in that the TWC and FiOS Xbox apps don't have DVR capability, but I suspect those types of features (or immediate on demand access to programs as they air) is the eventual evolution of these applications.


----------



## Dan203

Grakthis said:


> So, I compared the PS4 to a PC and said "My PC is just flat out better." So I am not buying a Ps4.. yet.
> 
> I compared the Xbox One to my PC and said "The XBox one does a whole bunch of media stuff, and the kinect voice control and motion control is cool..."
> 
> And so I got an Xbox One.
> 
> The superior gaming platform is the PC. If you don't like the extra stuff, there's no reason to get either console.
> 
> edit: to be clear, I am not just talking about the video overlay... but that is ONE part of it. I am talking about the video overlay and the camera and the voice command, etc.
> 
> i doubt I will use the one guide stuff, but you never know. Mostly I am expecting to just be able to use the side-by-side and other video overlay capabilities.


PCs are not "superior gaming platforms". They're expensive, hard to maintain, and the online experience is no where near what even the PS4 can do. PCs can have vastly superior specs, and because they have more buttons they make it easier to play certain types of games, but there is a reason the PC is dying as a gaming platform. Most people value the experience more then the specs.

In any case you're situation is unique. If someone was approaching this from a pure console gamer perspective they will typically pick their preffered platform based on the controler, the exclusive games and the online experience. People value the Kinect so little that they pressured MS to make it so it's not required to be connected to the XBox. If voice commands and motion control were so important to buyers why would they have lashed out against that requirement? I'm not saying the feature isn't cool and that it might sway the vote for some buyers, I'm just saying that for most buyers it's a gimmick and had no bearing on their decision.


----------



## Dan203

JosephB said:


> I think the evidence points to Microsoft not really caring that much. If it were that important to them, they would have 1) not dropped MCE support 2) probably not sold off their Mediaroom division and 3) they could easily have partnered with someone like Ceton to sell a CableCard add-on tuner.
> 
> If having a real, honest to god DVR fully integrated was truly important, they would have an add-on tuner, manage the recording and whatnot on the Xbox, and not give up the interface of that part of it to a third party. What incentive do they have to work with TiVo, giving TiVo control over part of the experience? What incentive would TiVo have, giving up just about the entire TiVo experience to Microsoft?
> 
> Microsoft has obviously decided to give up on the vision of being part of the base TV experience and to focus on IP-delivered video content via app partners, especially since it's apparent that's the direction the providers want to take. They have FiOS and TWC on their boxes with zero additional hardware costs, zero installation hassles, and with the full cooperation of the video providers. Contrast that with the TiVo method which relies on a poorly supported system, openly hostile service providers that are only supporting it because of legal requirements, and involves significant hardware costs.
> 
> There's currently a hole in the "app" delivery method, in that the TWC and FiOS Xbox apps don't have DVR capability, but I suspect those types of features (or immediate on demand access to programs as they air) is the eventual evolution of these applications.


I agree. I'm just saying that the API exists and there would be some benefit to both companies for them to implement it. I don't think it'll actually happen though. Like you said they see the future as IP delivery. Having cable box control is just a stop gap to get people use to using their XB1 as a portal to TV.


----------



## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> PCs are not "superior gaming platforms". They're expensive, hard to maintain, and the online experience is no where near what even the PS4 can do. PCs can have vastly superior specs, and because they have more buttons they make it easier to play certain types of games, but there is a reason the PC is dying as a gaming platform. Most people value the experience more then the specs.
> 
> In any case you're situation is unique. If someone was approaching this from a pure console gamer perspective they will typically pick their preffered platform based on the controler, the exclusive games and the online experience. People value the Kinect so little that they pressured MS to make it so it's not required to be connected to the XBox. If voice commands and motion control were so important to buyers why would they have lashed out against that requirement? I'm not saying the feature isn't cool and that it might sway the vote for some buyers, I'm just saying that for most buyers it's a gimmick and had no bearing on their decision.


You throw out a lot of assumptions and declarative statements without any evidence. What evidence is there that the PC is a dying platform? Or that kinect is a "gimmick" in "most buyers'" mind? PC gaming is still pretty strong, and both the PS4 and the Xbox One will make a ton of money for Sony and Microsoft.


----------



## Dan203

PC game sales have been on the decline for years. PC sales in general are also on the decline. Just do a Google news search and you'll find a hundred articles talking about it.

The current Kinect has a resale value of about $6, for a peripheral. And when MS initially announced that the XB1 would require the Kinect to be connected at all times people freaked out. So much so that MS reversed their position. Obviously the masses see no real value in the Kinect. People may turn out to like it and change their mind, but I'm confident that very few, if any, day one console buyers are getting an XB1 over a PS4 solely because of Kinect or the HDMI pass through feature.


----------



## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> PC game sales have been on the decline for years. PC sales in general are also on the decline. Just do a Google news search and you'll find a hundred articles talking about it.
> 
> The current Kinect has a resale value of about $6, for a peripheral. And when MS initially announced that the XB1 would require the Kinect to be connected at all times people freaked out. So much so that MS reversed their position. Obviously the masses see no real value in the Kinect. People may turn out to like it and change their mind, but I'm confident that very few, if any, day one console buyers are getting an XB1 over a PS4 solely because of Kinect or the HDMI pass through feature.


Was it 100% the absolute only reason I preordered an Xbox One instead of a Playstation 4? No, but it helped Microsoft's case.

I'm perfectly OK (and I actually prefer) to use my TiVo remote to access my DVR functions, but on the other hand it is *really freakin sweet* to have an integrated guide that puts the IP video apps in the same guide as my favorite linear channels. It's also really sweet that if I'm watching TV and a friend signs into Xbox Live and wants to play a game, I'll see it.


----------



## Dan203

JosephB said:


> it is *really freakin sweet* to have an integrated guide that puts the IP video apps in the same guide as my favorite linear channels.


I'm wondering how useful this will really be? Based on the video I saw all it does is put a list of "popular" videos into the guide. Since IP video apps are non-linear it doesn't really fit into the context of the guide very well. And unless your tastes line up with what's "popular" then it's unlikely you'll find something you actually want to watch that way.

Personally I think the way TiVo integrates IP video services in to search and browse is much more useful. I can pull up a show I'm thinking about watching and tell instantly if it's available via Netflix or Hulu. If it is I can pick the exact episode I want to watch, click it, and it will just start playing. Or if I want to browse I can pick up my iPad, find something I want to watch on it and just fling it to my TiVo for playback. (via DIAL)

Honestly the XBox guide looks like it's mainly for those who watch live TV, and I personally never do.



JosephB said:


> It's also really sweet that if I'm watching TV and a friend signs into Xbox Live and wants to play a game, I'll see it.


This I could see being useful for kids and single guys who can jump in and play at a moments notice, but being constantly bombarded by announcements while watching TV is not something that will have a very high WAF.

Now I "might" enable this feature for Skype if I had family who also had an XB1. The Skype feature gets us to that Jetsons future where we can video chat with people through the TV, which is pretty cool. Although I usually look like sh*t when I'm watching TV so maybe I don't want to video chat on my TV.


----------



## mikeyts

Dan203 said:


> Obviously the masses see no real value in the Kinect. People may turn out to like it and change their mind, but I'm confident that very few, if any, day one console buyers are getting an XB1 over a PS4 solely because of Kinect or the HDMI pass through feature.


I think that the current rash of Xbox One ads will get some buyers choosing it over PS4 for Kinect-enabled features which have little to do specifically with gaming. Voice control and its ability to visually recognize people and log them in automatically and reference their gaming and entertainment "contexts" by command ("Xbox show my stuff") is compelling. Throw in a beautiful girl and you get something this .

But you're right--few people who ordered early enough to get a Day One package were moved by the Kinect story, though there must have been some.


----------



## HerronScott

Dan203 said:


> PCs are not "superior gaming platforms". They're expensive, hard to maintain, and the online experience is no where near what even the PS4 can do. PCs can have vastly superior specs, and because they have more buttons they make it easier to play certain types of games, but there is a reason the PC is dying as a gaming platform. Most people value the experience more then the specs.


At least based on my experience with my teenage son and his friends, I would say this is not the case at least with older kids. They rarely play console games these days and it's all PC online gaming through companies selling games like Steam (and my son does have just almost all the console systems sold in the last 15 years with the exception of the PS3).

You mentioned in another post about PC games sales declining and I can see that being the case for retail boxed games but do those numbers include games sold through Steam and other online systems?

Scott


----------



## Dan203

All PC games sales, and PC sales in general, are on a decline. The only reason some stories claim they're holding, or even going up, is because they count people who play games on Facebook as "PC gamers". One piece of anecdotal evidence is the recent release of GTA5. It was ONLY for consoles. They plan on releasing a PC version eventually, sometime in 2014, but obviously the PC market isn't big enough for them to push the release out before the crucial holiday buying season. And sales figures of other major franchises available on all platforms almost always favor consoles by substantial margins. 

PCs are technologically superior for sure. But they have some serious issues which push consumers away. First off most PC buyers are shifting away from desktop PCs to laptops, and most laptops don't have hardware capable of even playing most PC games and offer no upgrade path to make them capable. Second a real gaming PC is insanely expensive. The video card alone can cost more then an entire console system. Add in the rest of the hardware and you're looking at 3x, or more, the price of a console. On top if that they're harder for developers to deal with. They're are millions of variations they have to account for when coding/supporting the game and the potential for piracy is significant. By contrast consoles offer a single consistent platform to develop for and built in piracy prevention.


----------



## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> I'm wondering how useful this will really be? Based on the video I saw all it does is put a list of "popular" videos into the guide. Since IP video apps are non-linear it doesn't really fit into the context of the guide very well. And unless your tastes line up with what's "popular" then it's unlikely you'll find something you actually want to watch that way.
> 
> Personally I think the way TiVo integrates IP video services in to search and browse is much more useful. I can pull up a show I'm thinking about watching and tell instantly if it's available via Netflix or Hulu. If it is I can pick the exact episode I want to watch, click it, and it will just start playing. Or if I want to browse I can pick up my iPad, find something I want to watch on it and just fling it to my TiVo for playback. (via DIAL)
> 
> Honestly the XBox guide looks like it's mainly for those who watch live TV, and I personally never do.
> 
> This I could see being useful for kids and single guys who can jump in and play at a moments notice, but being constantly bombarded by announcements while watching TV is not something that will have a very high WAF.
> 
> Now I "might" enable this feature for Skype if I had family who also had an XB1. The Skype feature gets us to that Jetsons future where we can video chat with people through the TV, which is pretty cool. Although I usually look like sh*t when I'm watching TV so maybe I don't want to video chat on my TV.


I watch quite a bit of live TV, lately probably a little more than recorded content, though that might shift back over time. I think the "One Guide" integration of apps into the guide is most useful for linear streaming apps like WatchESPN or the TWC app. I think that is probably where they want to go with it.

In terms of having the XB1 in the loop and always on for Skype, you can Skype with anyone, not just other XB1 users.


----------



## HarperVision

Grakthis said:


> How comfortable is it to wear tinfoil all day? I mean, it can't let much air through, so your head can't breathe very well... and plus, doesn't it make a lot of noise when you move around?


I used to contract for the NSA. They and many other institutions, both government and private, bank on naive people like you who "ostrich up" and cram their heads in the sand. That's all I'm saying about this.....flame away ostriches.....or should I say, cattle, sheeple.........


----------



## mikeyts

I suppose that people who plot subversive acts against the government should probably avoid doing it in front of their Kinect (or their mobile phones, network connected tablets and computers with webcams and/or microphones). I'm not going to worry about it too much. Since my Xbox One will be in my bedroom I may keep its camera covered when not using it for games with camera features, just in case .


----------



## en sabur nur

HarperVision said:


> I used to contract for the NSA. They and many other institutions, both government and private, bank on naive people like you who "ostrich up" and cram their heads in the sand. That's all I'm saying about this.....flame away ostriches.....or should I say, cattle, sheeple.........


There are people at both extremes. Some never question authority and others see conspiracies everywhere. All of them are foolish.


----------



## en sabur nur

I pre-ordered a Xbox One primarily for the tv integration features. I'm upgrading to a Roamio Pro from a Premiere 4, fully knowing that the Xbox One will not be able to integrate my dvr recordings. That's okay, because I'll use the RF remote or, even better, the Tivo iPad app (excellent) to quickly access those, as well as Netflix, YouTube and Hulu through DIAL. The XBOne will add BluRay, Skype, Skydrive, HBO Go and Vudu. The games are just gravy.


----------



## slowbiscuit

HerronScott said:


> At least based on my experience with my teenage son and his friends, I would say this is not the case at least with older kids. They rarely play console games these days and it's all PC online gaming through companies selling games like Steam (and my son does have just almost all the console systems sold in the last 15 years with the exception of the PS3).


Same here. The PC as a platform for online gaming in particular is far from dead because of companies like Valve with their Steam platform and all the MMO games out there that he and his friends play. We have Xboxes here and they are only used as extenders, my son and his friends never use them.

Same for my daughter, I built her a PC for Christmas last year even though she and her husband have a PS3 and Xbox because the online gaming experience is so much better on a PC. Games like Battlefield have many more players on a side on the PC than on the Xbox (because of console limitations) and the graphics are way better. And there are tons of quality RPGs that are only available online for PCs (Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter, League of Legends, etc.).

The decline of PC gaming is overrated, in many ways this is the golden age when you factor in online play.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> PC game sales have been on the decline for years. PC sales in general are also on the decline. Just do a Google news search and you'll find a hundred articles talking about it.
> 
> The current Kinect has a resale value of about $6, for a peripheral. And when MS initially announced that the XB1 would require the Kinect to be connected at all times people freaked out. So much so that MS reversed their position. Obviously the masses see no real value in the Kinect. People may turn out to like it and change their mind, but I'm confident that very few, if any, day one console buyers are getting an XB1 over a PS4 solely because of Kinect or the HDMI pass through feature.


But also look at the time alot of this info was released. People were freaking out over the NSA stuff. Although it was nothing new and had been going on for many years. But it seemed that people freaked out about it for some reason. And MS got a lot of Blowback because of it.

As far as using the HDMI input with a Video overlay. I'll believe it when I see it. Typically any device that uses an overlay doesn't get it right. Because it needs to decode the audio, then mix it's own audio, and then either output multi-channel PCM or re-encode back to DD or even DTS. Typically devices end up outputting stereo. And at some point later it may or may not get fixed. I would expect the XBOne to be fixed if it has the same stereo output issue. But only because the XBOne will be around for many years. Other devices in the past with overlays had a short life span so they were not always fixed.

But I would be extremely surprised if the audio works correctly out of the gate for the XBOne with the HDMI input. I expect it to work like other devices in the past that had HDMI inputs. The HDMI input device will have multichannel audio going into the XBOne and the XBOne ends up borking the audio when it mixes it's own audio in. So you end up with something less than was input. This is the main reason why I do not plan to use a primary device with the XBOne HDMI input. Once I see that it works correctly, it might be a different story. But initially I will use a secondary device with the HDMI input.

SO I'll either use my ROku3 with the HDMI input or my OTA Roamio Basic since neither one is really a primary viewing device for me. Well I guess the ROku3 is for some Amazon content(I watched Alpha House last night) and the Funimation app, so I guess it will need to be my OTA Roamio Basic instead.


----------



## mikeyts

I'm keeping my 360 and am going to try running it through the Xbox One HDMI input. The best the 360 can output is basic DD 5.1 anyway so hopefully it can output at least that much as PCM or re-encoded basic DD 5.1 (cheap BDPs can do either).


----------



## Dan203

I'm trying to decide if I want to do that or not. Was trying to use the XB1 as an excuse to simplify my system, that will complicate things. Not sure if I'm ready to dump the 360 completely though.


----------



## Grakthis

Dan203 said:


> PCs are not "superior gaming platforms". They're expensive,


I can get a gaming PC cheaper than either the PS4 or the Xbox One.



> hard to maintain,


In 2013? What year do you think this is? My PC requires no more maintenance (for gaming purposes) than my Xbox 360. Actually, my Xbox 360 takes more, cause it broke and I had to send it back for repairs.



> and the online experience is no where near what even the PS4 can do.


So i'm assuming you don't know about steam?



> PCs can have vastly superior specs, and because they have more buttons they make it easier to play certain types of games, but there is a reason the PC is dying as a gaming platform. Most people value the experience more then the specs.


Boy is your data out of date! The PC has been experiencing a gaming revolution for about *checks watch* a decade now. Keep up. Steam and online distribution combined with the indy game market has made PC gaming dominant again.



> In any case you're situation is unique. If someone was approaching this from a pure console gamer perspective they will typically pick their preffered platform based on the controler, the exclusive games and the online experience. People value the Kinect so little that they pressured MS to make it so it's not required to be connected to the XBox. If voice commands and motion control were so important to buyers why would they have lashed out against that requirement? I'm not saying the feature isn't cool and that it might sway the vote for some buyers, I'm just saying that for most buyers it's a gimmick and had no bearing on their decision.


My situation is not unique, but I will admit, it is not the norm. But you made a statement suggesting NO ONE was like me. we may be a minority, but we exist.

"buyers" didn't lash out. Buyers made the Xbox One release edition sell-out everywhere. Online forums and trolls lashed out... the same people who think the difference between native 720P upscaled to 1080 vs native 1080 is a "big deal." Those people don't matter to me.


----------



## Grakthis

Dan203 said:


> PC game sales have been on the decline for years. PC sales in general are also on the decline. Just do a Google news search and you'll find a hundred articles talking about it.


Really? That's strange, cause I googled "declining PC game sales" and I got (first link).

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/429750/grim-pc-decline-not-hurting-games-says-gabe-newell/



> "So despite the huge declines in PC sales, on the gaming side there's growth. Steam is going up 76 per cent year-on-year while PCs are going through double-digit declines."





> The current Kinect has a resale value of about $6, for a peripheral.


So, you're wrong by half. And the Xbox 360 has a resale value of under $100 without peripherals. So what point do you think you're making? Oh, I know, It's last gen hardware. Good point.



> And when MS initially announced that the XB1 would require the Kinect to be connected at all times people freaked out.


See above.



> So much so that MS reversed their position.


No they didn't. They added in a menu option. It disables all kinect features. They added a bit. Ooooh ahhhh.



> Obviously the masses see no real value in the Kinect.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect#Reception



> 8 million units in its first 60 days on the market, Kinect has claimed the Guinness World Record of being the "fastest selling consumer electronics device"


Like, I am having a hard time taking you seriously right now. You're arguing that a device that was the fastest selling peripheral of ALL TIME after it was released had "no real value" for the "masses."



> People may turn out to like it and change their mind, but I'm confident that very few, if any, day one console buyers are getting an XB1 over a PS4 solely because of Kinect or the HDMI pass through feature.


I mean, we just established that at least one is. So stop saying "if any." Here's one. I just raised my hand.

So, you're "if" is wrong. 100% factually untrue. Stop saying it.

Oh, also, my brother. But he's not buying one. He said "if he were...." So I am not counting him.


----------



## Grakthis

HarperVision said:


> I used to contract for the NSA. They and many other institutions, both government and private, bank on naive people like you who "ostrich up" and cram their heads in the sand. That's all I'm saying about this.....flame away ostriches.....or should I say, cattle, sheeple.........


Oh yeah well I am the FBI and I just looked at your secret files and saw that you like to **** sheep. I have pictures right here. I know this because I hacked all of your IPs at the same time and got access to your TV which is secretly receiving light within its LEDS and transmitting that light back to the intertubes.

I mean, you should see the look on your face, sheep****er! It's priceless!


----------



## Grakthis

I mean, Dan, do you know that the Ps2 outsold the PS3 and Xbox 360 both? And the GBA did too.

Are you talking about the "decline" of gaming consoles too?


----------



## Dan203

Whoa! Defensive much?

If you look at the actual sales of popular game titles on the PC you'll see sales are declining, or flat, compared to their console counterparts. Valve is mainly seeing an increase in Steam sales because they're cannibalizing retail boxed sales. And Nvidia and ATI "cheat" on their numbers by claiming Facebook games as "PC games". The vast majority of PC buyers these days are buying inexpensive laptops which are incapable of playing real PC games and impossible to upgrade. There is, and always will be, a group of die hard PC gamers that will keep the PC gaming market viable, but with the PC market itself falling off a cliff I just don't see there being a lot of room for growth.

As for price.... Show me where you can get a complete gaming PC, including a keyboard and mouse, for less then an XB1/PS4. Not something you build yourself from parts or upgrade your last PC from. A complete system the average consumer can buy off the shelf and start playing games on immediately and actually enjoy the experience.

As for online experience... I was referring to the complete online experience. Chat, parties, matching, etc... It's been a few years since I used Steam but I don't remember it having anything like that. Each game had it's own matchmaking and chat capabilities that had to be setup from game to game.

As for my statements about Kinect and the video capabilities... I was simply saying that in my *opinion* very few *day one buyers* chose the XB1 over the PS3 because of those features. Most day one buyers are hard core gamers who already have an established preference for one system over the other based on things such as the controller, online experience (i.e. XB live), exclusive games, and what they're friends have. I seriously doubt many gamers with established biases like that will choose an XB1 over a PS4 simply because it has an HDMI pass through port and the ability to control your cable box by talking to your Kinect. That was the point of my statement there.


----------



## HarperVision

Grakthis said:


> Oh yeah well I am the FBI and I just looked at your secret files and saw that you like to **** sheep. I have pictures right here. I know this because I hacked all of your IPs at the same time and got access to your TV which is secretly receiving light within its LEDS and transmitting that light back to the intertubes. I mean, you should see the look on your face, sheep****er! It's priceless!


wow I didn't think you'd be that jealous of me treating your wife like that! Sorry dude!


----------



## eaadams

Really looking forward to seeing how this works on a Premiere 2 tuner. I sure hope it works well. It is the main reason I am getting an Xbox one. In hopes it works better for auto tuning media. The YouTube casting to Premere has been completely unacceptable, So I hope the XBone can do a better job and then auto tune back to TIVO for tv.


----------



## Grakthis

HarperVision said:


> wow I didn't think you'd be that jealous of me treating your wife like that! Sorry dude!


better than a "your mom" response, but still, kinda reaching in to the vault for that one, aren't we? I think you can do better. Take another shot at it. I'll wait. I don't have anywhere to be.

Let's say, we'll take your best joke, out of 3, and only count that one.


----------



## en sabur nur

I think it will work out fine. The Xbox One will switch the user to whatever is dispaying on the main screen. So, if I play a recording, using the iPad app for example, that will be playing when I say "Xbox, go to live tv". I'll probably use the Tivo remote (or iPad) for all dvr controls (especially on a Tivo Roamio) and the Xbox One for everything else.


----------



## Grakthis

Dan203 said:


> Whoa! Defensive much?
> 
> If you look at the actual sales of popular game titles on the PC you'll see sales are declining, or flat, compared to their console counterparts.


Popular game titles are not the criteria on which we rate the success of platform. If AAA titles aren't selling as well, maybe that's because AAA titles aren't very good anymore? Maybe people are spending their money on the $5 Indy titles instead?



> Valve is mainly seeing an increase in Steam sales because they're cannibalizing retail boxed sales. And Nvidia and ATI "cheat" on their numbers by claiming Facebook games as "PC games". The vast majority of PC buyers these days are buying inexpensive laptops which are incapable of playing real PC games and impossible to upgrade. There is, and always will be, a group of die hard PC gamers that will keep the PC gaming market viable, but with the PC market itself falling off a cliff I just don't see there being a lot of room for growth.


There's a ton of room for growth. The indy game market on PCs is absolutely out of control with new games. Games like Orcs Must Die, Monaco and Braid couldn't have existed in 2002. There was no distribution system. Today, you can stock your library with awesome games for under $50.

Again, the only possible way you can hold the position that PC gaming is dying is if you do not know anything about PC gaming. PC gaming is an exploding market, to the point where I saw repeated discussions of "why buy a PS4/Xbox One? They are just PCs now."



> As for price.... Show me where you can get a complete gaming PC, including a keyboard and mouse, for less then an XB1/PS4. Not something you build yourself from parts or upgrade your last PC from. A complete system the average consumer can buy off the shelf and start playing games on immediately and actually enjoy the experience.


Depends on how you define "gaming PC" of course. Let's use Skyrim as our benchmark, ok? If it can run skyrim, it's suitable for gaming.

http://tech.woot.com/offers/23-dual-core-aio-pc-5

$399.99. A radeon HD 7540D will play Skyrim with decent specs (middle of the road) without any stuttering. 4GB DDR3 is comparable to the Xbox One. And look, it even comes with a 23'' monitor!

Any day of the week, you can find a PC that will run every single current gen game on moderate specs (comparable to the One and PS4) for under 500 and usually in the 400 range.



> As for online experience... I was referring to the complete online experience. Chat, parties, matching, etc... It's been a few years since I used Steam but I don't remember it having anything like that. Each game had it's own matchmaking and chat capabilities that had to be setup from game to game.


Steam has a friends list, an in-game overlay and the ability to join friends games if the game supports it. Games can use Steams built-in chat settings and configuration, but many do not. matchmaking is up to each game to implement, the same way it is in the One and Ps4 but Valve provides some API help there.

So, it's up to each game to implement it, the same way it is for the Xbox and Ps4, but the functionality is built in to steam. All first party games use it... some third party ones do.



> As for my statements about Kinect and the video capabilities... I was simply saying that in my *opinion* very few *day one buyers* chose the XB1 over the PS3 because of those features. Most day one buyers are hard core gamers who already have an established preference for one system over the other based on things such as the controller, online experience (i.e. XB live), exclusive games, and what they're friends have. I seriously doubt many gamers with established biases like that will choose an XB1 over a PS4 simply because it has an HDMI pass through port and the ability to control your cable box by talking to your Kinect. That was the point of my statement there.


I don't disagree with a statement that "many" are that way. I found fault with your claims that "none" of them would be like me. Gamers like me are out there... I mean, the launch titles on both machines are awful. And I've owned every gen of Xbox and Playstation so I am platform agnostic. In fact, I bought a Ps3 before I bought a 360. So i don't have any ties to the Xbox platform i wouldn't sever if I didn't think it was worthwhile.

The xbox just offered me a value (Kinect) that the Ps4 didn't. Anything the PS4 offers me, I can get on my PC. If someday it offers me exclusives that i want to own, I may make the jump on the future Ps4 slim or something.


----------



## HarperVision

Grakthis said:


> better than a "your mom" response, but still, kinda reaching in to the vault for that one, aren't we? I think you can do better. Take another shot at it. I'll wait. I don't have anywhere to be.
> 
> Let's say, we'll take your best joke, out of 3, and only count that one.


Haha, I was actually going to use the "your momma" joke, but then it became clear that you have some serious mommy issues that require therapy. I didn't want to rub any more salt into those poor mental wounds.

P.S. - how's that one?


----------



## mikeyts

Could be stop the sniping between Grakthis and HarperVision? Also the _totally_ off-topic exchange about PC gaming???


----------



## Dan203

Grakthis said:


> Popular game titles are not the criteria on which we rate the success of platform. If AAA titles aren't selling as well, maybe that's because AAA titles aren't very good anymore? Maybe people are spending their money on the $5 Indy titles instead?


It takes a LOT of $5 indy titles to make up for the $1 billion dollars GTA5 has sold. If your mesure of sucess is how many games are available then I'm betting iOS is the most sucessful gaming platform in history.



Grakthis said:


> There's a ton of room for growth. The indy game market on PCs is absolutely out of control with new games. Games like Orcs Must Die, Monaco and Braid couldn't have existed in 2002. There was no distribution system. Today, you can stock your library with awesome games for under $50.


MS is looking to steal this away as well. They've opened up development on the XB1 to make it easier for indy games to thrive. And with a pure x86 platform using standard DirectX API it should be relatively trivial for those indy developers to port thier games over, allowing to consoles to further syphon sales from the PC market.



Grakthis said:


> Again, the only possible way you can hold the position that PC gaming is dying is if you do not know anything about PC gaming. PC gaming is an exploding market, to the point where I saw repeated discussions of "why buy a PS4/Xbox One? They are just PCs now."


Money matters. And the money is shifting towards consoles.



Grakthis said:


> Depends on how you define "gaming PC" of course. Let's use Skyrim as our benchmark, ok? If it can run skyrim, it's suitable for gaming.
> 
> http://tech.woot.com/offers/23-dual-core-aio-pc-5
> 
> $399.99. A radeon HD 7540D will play Skyrim with decent specs (middle of the road) without any stuttering. 4GB DDR3 is comparable to the Xbox One. And look, it even comes with a 23'' monitor!
> 
> Any day of the week, you can find a PC that will run every single current gen game on moderate specs (comparable to the One and PS4) for under 500 and usually in the 400 range.


I define a gaming PC as something that can play every available PC game at atleast 1080p 60fps. And continue to be able to play every game for the next 5-7 years. Because that's what you get with a console. A platform that is guaranteed to play every game released for the system for the next 5-7 years. You can't do that with a PC.



Grakthis said:


> Steam has a friends list, an in-game overlay and the ability to join friends games if the game supports it. Games can use Steams built-in chat settings and configuration, but many do not. matchmaking is up to each game to implement, the same way it is in the One and Ps4 but Valve provides some API help there.
> 
> So, it's up to each game to implement it, the same way it is for the Xbox and Ps4, but the functionality is built in to steam. All first party games use it... some third party ones do.


That sounds pretty nice. I didn't realize they had developed the experience that much.



Grakthis said:


> I don't disagree with a statement that "many" are that way. I found fault with your claims that "none" of them would be like me.


I never said "none". I said "very few, if any".


----------



## Jonathan_S

Grakthis said:


> No they didn't. They added in a menu option. It disables all kinect features. They added a bit. Ooooh ahhhh.


They also clarified (or modified the xbox one so that) it will boot and run without the kinect camera connected.

Early statements claimed that the camera _must_ be physically connected to use the system; even if you turned it off through the menus. (Now whether that was an actual change to the software or whether Microsoft just back peddled on the way they presented it is a mildly interesting unknown)

But that distinction maters (a bit) for me, because I occasionally take my 360 (and would take an xbox one) with me outside the home. Not having to bring along the kinect peripheral makes that easier.


----------



## Grakthis

HarperVision said:


> Haha, I was actually going too use the "your momma" joke, but then it became clear that you have some serious mommy issues that require therapy. I didn't want to rub any more salt into those poor mental wounds.
> 
> P.S. - how's that one?


See, this one doesn't work because you don't know me enough to say I have mommy issues. Like, if we knew each other, and I did have some kind of weird relationship with my mom, this would be a pretty good one. But we don't. So it's just kind of weird. Like, what, are you watching me on camera or something? are you outside of my house looking in the window? It conveys a sense of stalkerishness that just makes me feel creeped out.

That's ok, you have one more try though. Then we'll vote on the best one.


----------



## Grakthis

Dan203 said:


> It takes a LOT of $5 indy titles to make up for the $1 billion dollars GTA5 has sold.


In what way? What if that indy game cost 1/1000th as much to make? Are you judging sales or profit or number of coders employed or hours spent playing? What is your criteria for "make up?"



> If your mesure of sucess is how many games are available then I'm betting iOS is the most sucessful gaming platform in history.


Probably true! I mean, we all know that the GBA is one of the best selling machines, right?



> MS is looking to steal this away as well. They've opened up development on the XB1 to make it easier for indy games to thrive. And with a pure x86 platform using standard DirectX API it should be relatively trivial for those indy developers to port thier games over, allowing to consoles to further syphon sales from the PC market.


Yeah, and it's a good movie. I don't think it will work though, because it's just so much easier to develop for the desktop. But they are going to take a run at it and I hope they do well.



> Money matters. And the money is shifting towards consoles.


Cite? And do you mean money in PURCHASES or development?



> I define a gaming PC as something that can play every available PC game at atleast 1080p 60fps. And continue to be able to play every game for the next 5-7 years. Because that's what you get with a console. A platform that is guaranteed to play every game released for the system for the next 5-7 years. You can't do that with a PC.


Oh come on. No, consoles cannot currently play games at 1080P at 60FPS. Literally, neither console can. Ok, that's not fair. How about, neither console DOES. Maybe one of them CAN. we don't know yet. But currently, nothing is doing better than 900P native (upscaled to 1080P) and I think 30FPS? They may have some running higher than 30. 1080P at 60FPS is definitely not the standard yet.

I might be wrong on the 900P. I think maybe one of the first party games for the PS4 is doing native 1080P? Maybe. I'd have to google it.



> I never said "none". I said "very few, if any".


What does the "if any" part mean if not "none?"

Very few OR none. that's what you said.


----------



## HarperVision

Grakthis said:


> See, this one doesn't work because you don't know me enough to say I have mommy issues. Like, if we knew each other, and I did have some kind of weird relationship with my mom, this would be a pretty good one. But we don't. So it's just kind of weird. Like, what, are you watching me on camera or something? are you outside of my house looking in the window? It conveys a sense of stalkerishness that just makes me feel creeped out.
> 
> That's ok, you have one more try though. Then we'll vote on the best one.


I'll just leave you hanging. More fun that way and apparently we're pissing people off with our useless banter.


----------



## Aero 1

well, i wont be chaining my tivo to the xbox one this friday. the verge confirmed that the xbox wont pass through Dolby Digital and that the option to transcode it to PCM is not enabled. dumb.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/20/5117320/microsoft-xbox-one-review



> For starters, passing my TiVo through the Xbox One darkened the picture and stripped the signal of its Dolby Digital audio encoding, taking away surround sound. There's a beta option to transcode Dolby into DTS or PCM audio, but it didn't seem to work for me, and Microsoft says it might cause additional video distortion with some cable boxes until it's out of beta. If you have a home theater system, this is an immediate deal breaker; I wouldn't let the Xbox One near your cable box until it can pass the signal unmolested.


----------



## Jonathan_S

Aero 1 said:


> well, i wont be chaining my tivo to the xbox one this friday. the verge confirmed that the xbox wont pass through Dolby Digital and that the option to transcode it to PCM is not enabled. dumb.


Well that makes it pretty useless.

I just had another thought. I wonder if the xbox one will have internal volume control? Right now, with a 360, I need to turn the volume down by about 50% for the console, compared to watching TV because TV is so much quieter.

Even once they get DD->PCM working correctly am I going to be deafened if I get a game invite during a TV show?


----------



## JosephB

Is there some kind of licensing issue that makes it so difficult to deal with Dolby Digital decoding/transcoding? I don't get why, with the cable box integration being such a big deal, this was not even remotely thought about.


----------



## JosephB

Follow up, though, I'm guessing that it works with PCM fine, so you could set your TiVo to PCM and have it work OK?


----------



## HarperVision

Aero 1 said:


> well, i wont be chaining my tivo to the xbox one this friday. the verge confirmed that the xbox wont pass through Dolby Digital and that the option to transcode it to PCM is not enabled. dumb.
> 
> http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/20/5117320/microsoft-xbox-one-review


So why not just transcode to PCM in the TiVo (turn off DD)? Who gives a hoot where it's transcoded, the real problem is that it IS transcoded and not sent through unmolested as a DD signal, not _where_ it's transcoded.


----------



## rhettf

I thought I would share how I will be setting up my AV setup here.










Before the announcement I was planing on running my TiVo Roamio through the Xbox One but I don't want to suffer any quality loss even if it turns out to be minimal. I am going to keep my Roamio plugged in like it is now and then hookup the TiVo mini to the Xbox one.

I actually like this solution better since it allows for guests to watch TV without messing with my Xbox One.

The interesting part is how the remote/kinect functionality will work.

Because the Roamio uses RF I will put a piece of cardboard around the front (with space for my Slingbox IR blaster) of the Roamio. After Starting the TiVo Roamio activity on my Harmony the TiVo remote is what will control the box. I need to hide the box because frankly programming my Harmony to control two different TiVo's is a pain! I know I can do it but since I like using my TiVo RF remote anyway I won't waste time. Plus the Xbox one will probably send out commands on the universal 0 channel for the TiVo which switches every TiVo back to the 0 channel.

The TiVo Mini will plug into the Xbox one and allow me to watch Live TV and my recordings if need be but I will want the better picture and sound whenever I am watching something I really want to watch...stereo audio will be fine for the food network or HGTV.

I will allow the Xbox to control the Mini and AVR, but only for channel changing and volume. Since the Xbox One won't know if my devices are already on using the Xbox On command would probably turn off my equipment plus get the harmony remote confused.

It's a hack but will allow me to get the best of both worlds. In the future when MS releases real 5.1 support and improves the picture quality I will hook up the Roamio directly to the Xbox One. It would be great to if in the future TiVo and MS bring in deeper device control via network commands.

TL;DR 5.1 surround isn't support (in beta but reports are not good) so I will just use a TiVo Mini to get Live TV but use my Roamio when wanting a better picture quality and 5.1


----------



## Dan203

That seems excessively complicated. Why do you have a Mini and Roamio in the same room?

I use to have a setup like that. (i.e. matrix switch, distributions system, etc....) I've since simplified significantly. Once I get the XB1 I'll be down to 4 devices connected to a receiver feeding 1 TV. In the other rooms I have Minis for TiVo and smart TVs for everything else.


----------



## rhettf

Dan203 said:


> That seems excessively complicated. Why do you have a Mini and Roamio in the same room?
> 
> I use to have a setup like that. (i.e. matrix switch, distributions system, etc....) I've since simplified significantly. Once I get the XB1 I'll be down to 4 devices connected to a receiver feeding 1 TV. In the other rooms I have Minis for TiVo and smart TVs for everything else.


Forgot to mention that all of my equipment sits in a closet and the iScan Duo allows me to pipe content to two separate screens. I love not having to see my equipment while watching TV in the living room. My other screen sits in my dining room/office/kitchen so I can watch TV while cooking or play games on my PC with a mouse and keyboard. I live in an apartment and alone so having the same content on multiple screens is ideal. Excessive? Sure. Awesome and convenient for a tech lover like myself? YES

My setup is exactly like this already but without a TiVo Mini hooked up and a 360 instead of a Xbox One. Its not complicated to the passerby because all of it is controlled by a Harmony 900 that makes it accessible.

Above all I love this stuff. I love figuring out how I'll make it seamless. Sure it will take a little effort to get it working but then I'll never touch it. I haven't had to change the wiring and remote since I set everything up 3 years ago (besides switching on my XL4 for a Roamio).


----------



## Grakthis

Aero 1 said:


> well, i wont be chaining my tivo to the xbox one this friday. the verge confirmed that the xbox wont pass through Dolby Digital and that the option to transcode it to PCM is not enabled. dumb.
> 
> http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/20/5117320/microsoft-xbox-one-review


Yeah, that's awkward, but I don't think it will impact too many people. I mean, I'm fairly tech and AV savvy and it doesn't impact me. I don't care if DD goes from my cable box to my TV since I don't run my cable box through a receiver anyways. But I imagine you probably run your HDMI through a receiver, right? Which means you get degraded audio through your receiver.

I only run BD movies through my receiver from my PS3. Regular TV just goes through my TV speakers.


----------



## rhettf

Grakthis said:


> Yeah, that's awkward, but I don't think it will impact too many people. I mean, I'm fairly tech and AV savvy and it doesn't impact me. I don't care if DD goes from my cable box to my TV since I don't run my cable box through a receiver anyways.  But I imagine you probably run your HDMI through a receiver, right? Which means you get degraded audio through your receiver.
> 
> I only run BD movies through my receiver from my PS3. Regular TV just goes through my TV speakers.


I'm curious why you wouldn't want to run the cable through the receiver and use actual speakers instead of usually pretty awful TV speakers? does it not have multiple hdmi inputs?


----------



## Aero 1

HarperVision said:


> So why not just transcode to PCM in the TiVo (turn off DD)? Who gives a hoot where it's transcoded, the real problem is that it IS transcoded and not sent through unmolested as a DD signal, not _where_ it's transcoded.


why should i? i want to hear the source audio, i don't want it transcoded. and yes, i can hear the difference.



Grakthis said:


> Yeah, that's awkward, but I don't think it will impact too many people. I mean, I'm fairly tech and AV savvy and it doesn't impact me. I don't care if DD goes from my cable box to my TV since I don't run my cable box through a receiver anyways. But I imagine you probably run your HDMI through a receiver, right? Which means you get degraded audio through your receiver.
> 
> I only run BD movies through my receiver from my PS3. Regular TV just goes through my TV speakers.


it probably doesn't affect most people, but it affects me. and if this xbox is going to take 20 minutes asking me questions as to what type of cable box i have, what kind of tv i have, and what kind of Surround sound system i have to it control it, the stupid thing better handle audio pass through correctly. watching football in stereo is horrendous.


----------



## rhettf

Aero 1 said:


> why should i? i want to hear the source audio, i don't want it transcoded. and yes, i can hear the difference.


I can hear the different of DD, DD+, True HD, and Master but I have never noticed the difference of DD/DD+/True HD/Master audio to PCM. I have really nice speakers too. I always want to bitstream but I am willing to compromise on TV Audio since it's already much lower quality than say a blu-ray or vudu stream.



Aero 1 said:


> it probably doesn't affect most people, but it affects me. and if this xbox is going to take 20 minutes asking me questions as to what type of cable box i have, what kind of tv i have, and what kind of Surround sound system i have to it control it, the stupid thing better handle audio pass through correctly. watching football in stereo is horrendous.


It sucks it doesn't support 5.1 at launch but I'm glad its in beta and that full support will arrive soon. Its better than never having it. I won't hook up my Roamio until surround is fully supported but will hook up my mini so I can watch live tv that doesn't benefit from surround sound, like the food network.

I agree it does suck and the sentiment that it doesn't affect most people is annoying. People like us are the ones most likely to buy a XBONE at launch!


----------



## JosephB

rhettf said:


> Forgot to mention that all of my equipment sits in a closet and the iScan Duo allows me to pipe content to two separate screens


How do you plan to deal with the kinect? It only has a 3 meter cable and as of yet no extension is available.

That is the only reason all of my equipment isn't in a closet in the back of my living room


----------



## rhettf

JosephB said:


> How do you plan to deal with the kinect? It only has a 3 meter cable and as of yet no extension is available.
> 
> That is the only reason all of my equipment isn't in a closet in the back of my living room


My closet is just behind the TV and to the left. So the kinect is less than 3 meters away.










They will also release extension cables for the kinect probably, just like the 360 version had: Kinect Extension Cable

edit sorry I just realized you mentioned the extension cable. I take it your closet is further away than 30 feet?


----------



## JosephB

rhettf said:


> My closet is just behind the TV and to the left. So the kinect is less than 3 meters away.
> 
> They will also release extension cables for the kinect probably, just like the 360 version had: Kinect Extension Cable
> 
> edit sorry I just realized you mentioned the extension cable. I take it your closet is further away than 30 feet?


Yeah, my cables run through the attic. I previously ran an HDMI cable, and 50 feet was *just* enough.


----------



## Dan203

rhettf said:


> Forgot to mention that all of my equipment sits in a closet and the iScan Duo allows me to pipe content to two separate screens. I love not having to see my equipment while watching TV in the living room. My other screen sits in my dining room/office/kitchen so I can watch TV while cooking or play games on my PC with a mouse and keyboard. I live in an apartment and alone so having the same content on multiple screens is ideal. Excessive? Sure. Awesome and convenient for a tech lover like myself? YES
> 
> My setup is exactly like this already but without a TiVo Mini hooked up and a 360 instead of a Xbox One. Its not complicated to the passerby because all of it is controlled by a Harmony 900 that makes it accessible.
> 
> Above all I love this stuff. I love figuring out how I'll make it seamless. Sure it will take a little effort to get it working but then I'll never touch it. I haven't had to change the wiring and remote since I set everything up 3 years ago (besides switching on my XL4 for a Roamio).


When I had my matrix switch setup I had all kinds of problems. The matrix switch would confuse the EDID on the HDMI so I'd have to fiddle with it to get the proper sound. It would also confuse the distribution system so I'd have to fiddle with it to get it working in the other room if it had been a while. It worked but it was a huge PITA! I've decided I prefer simple. SO like I said I bought TiVo Minis and smart TVs for the other rooms and the only thing connecting the main TV to the other rooms are network cables. It makes everything really simple and reduces cable clutter immensely.


----------



## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> When I had my matrix switch setup I had all kinds of problems. The matrix switch would confuse the EDID on the HDMI so I'd have to fiddle with it to get the proper sound. It would also confuse the distribution system so I'd have to fiddle with it to get it working in the other room if it had been a while. It worked but it was a huge PITA! I've decided I prefer simple. SO like I said I bought TiVo Minis and smart TVs for the other rooms and the only thing connecting the main TV to the other rooms are network cables. It makes everything really simple and reduces cable clutter immensely.


Same!

I had a 4x2 matrix and put everything in my closet and was using HDMI over Cat5 baluns, and it never really worked right. Between the HDMI extenders and the 4x2 HDMI switch to two rooms, HDCP content was a crapshoot.

Since I'm switching back to TiVo from DirecTV, I have reactivated my two Premieres in the two rooms where I had my "master closet" content available. With the Xbox One, in the living room I can play literally everything I want either on the Xbox One or the TiVo, and my TV can play content through Plex for the (decreasing amount of) downloaded video I want to play that XBone won't support.


----------



## rhettf

Dan203 said:


> When I had my matrix switch setup I had all kinds of problems. The matrix switch would confuse the EDID on the HDMI so I'd have to fiddle with it to get the proper sound. It would also confuse the distribution system so I'd have to fiddle with it to get it working in the other room if it had been a while. It worked but it was a huge PITA! I've decided I prefer simple. SO like I said I bought TiVo Minis and smart TVs for the other rooms and the only thing connecting the main TV to the other rooms are network cables. It makes everything really simple and reduces cable clutter immensely.


Interesting, I don't use a matrix switch and never had issues like the ones you mentioned.


----------



## Grakthis

rhettf said:


> I'm curious why you wouldn't want to run the cable through the receiver and use actual speakers instead of usually pretty awful TV speakers? does it not have multiple hdmi inputs?


My receiver has 0 hdmi inputs. It's from like 2000. I use optical for my PS3 and that's the only device hooked up to it right now. There was no HDMI when I got my receiver. And the benefits of upgrading are pretty small right now. I prefer to switch inputs on my TV rather than a receiver because my TV let's me have different video settings for the different sources which is great for gaming and movies vs live TV.

Mostly, I just don't want my TV coming through my big speakers and subwoofer. TV should be low-key and quiet so I don't wake up my kid or sleeping wife. Movies go through the big speakers. That's how I like it.

I'll upgrade receivers someday to one that let's me stream audio from an android device via an open format that doesn't require a special app from the company that makes the receiver. Probably something like Miracast. Until then, there's no rush.


----------



## Grakthis

I watch football in stereo all the time. Well, mostly, I go to games or watch them at Bw3's. But when I watch football at home, it's in stereo. It is not at all horrendous.

I don't want to be a dick, cause I have those pet things about which I am a snob (mostly coffee and beer) but if you think watching media in stereo is "horrendous" then it's definitely time for a "check your privilege." It's perfectly fine.


----------



## Grakthis

Did some research and found out the optical out on the Xbox One will only do DTS and Stereo. It's EXPECTED they will add 5.1, but they haven't confirmed it. Which means I'm hosed on using it to watch BD movies. So, I guess my PS3 will stay as my BD player for a while still. Shame.


----------



## JosephB

Grakthis said:


> Did some research and found out the optical out on the Xbox One will only do DTS and Stereo. It's EXPECTED they will add 5.1, but they haven't confirmed it. Which means I'm hosed on using it to watch BD movies. So, I guess my PS3 will stay as my BD player for a while still. Shame.


Wait, when watching a DVD or Bluray or playing a game or anything else where the audio is generated by the XBone (IE: not passthrough) it won't output Dolby Digital?

Does that apply only to the optical out or to the HDMI as well? That doesn't seem right at all. Sounds like maybe things are getting mixed up with the passthrough limitation (which a fix is in "beta" and is specifically related to a problem with passthrough)


----------



## HarperVision

Aero 1 said:


> why should i? i want to hear the source audio, i don't want it transcoded. and yes, i can hear the difference.
> 
> it probably doesn't affect most people, but it affects me. and if this xbox is going to take 20 minutes asking me questions as to what type of cable box i have, what kind of tv i have, and what kind of Surround sound system i have to it control it, the stupid thing better handle audio pass through correctly. watching football in stereo is horrendous.


We had this same issue when the ps3 first came out and it wouldn't do streaming multichannel audio. You could only output multi channel PCM. Everyone was freaking out, but myself and the audio experts were laughing because it didn't really matter one bit whether the DD signal was transcoded to multi-channel PCM in the ps3 or in your receiver. I may have confused what's happening with the XBone. Is it changing it to stereo or multi-channel PCM? If stereo then yeah, that would suck.


rhettf said:


> I can hear the different of DD, DD+, True HD, and Master but I have never noticed the difference of DD/DD+/True HD/Master audio to PCM. I have really nice speakers too...


This I agree with though.


----------



## rhettf

Grakthis said:


> Did some research and found out the optical out on the Xbox One will only do DTS and Stereo. It's EXPECTED they will add 5.1, but they haven't confirmed it. Which means I'm hosed on using it to watch BD movies. So, I guess my PS3 will stay as my BD player for a while still. Shame.


Dolby Digital is coming post launch. This was a SW scheduling issue pure and simple, and I know people are disappointed, but we will have it.

Anyone with an HDMI receiver should be fine, as we pass the uncompressed 5.1 and 7.1 through HDMI as well as DTS. Even if you have a Dolby only HDMI receiver (which I'm not sure exists), you will still get 5.1 or 7.1 sound since those receivers should accept uncompressed surround.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90673295&postcount=240

Why do you need DD instead of DTS?



Grakthis said:


> Mostly, I just don't want my TV coming through my big speakers and subwoofer. TV should be low-key and quiet so I don't wake up my kid or sleeping wife. Movies go through the big speakers. That's how I like it.


Thats what night mode is for or headphones 

In my experience playing audio through my TV (my AVR was broken for a couple weeks) bothered my neighbors and playing stuff through my receiver didn't. The audio that comes out of a TV are from speakers that tend to change the dynamic range and for whatever reason it's a frequency that passes through walls much easier.

There is some great benefits with HDMI like TrueHD or Master Audio. Its incredible how much more fidelity you'll get and you will get the ability to hear more at lower volumes.

If you only have one optical input will you not be using the big speaker with the xbox one either?

I totally get your understanding, just sharing my experience. It was crazy to me that my TV was more obnoxious than my full range speakers.



Grakthis said:


> I'll upgrade receivers someday to one that let's me stream audio from an android device via an open format that doesn't require a special app from the company that makes the receiver. Probably something like Miracast. Until then, there's no rush.


You could just get a chromecast, which will add miracast for $35 to any hdmi input.



HarperVision said:


> We had this same issue when the ps3 first came out and it wouldn't do streaming multichannel audio. You could only output multi channel PCM. Everyone was freaking out, but myself and the audio experts were laughing because it didn't really matter one bit whether the DD signal was transcoded to multi-channel PCM in the ps3 or in your receiver. I may have confused what's happening with the XBone. Is it changing it to stereo or multi-channel PCM? If stereo then yeah, that would suck.
> This I agree with though.


For the most part this is true BUT if you have a really high end receiver it could do a better job of decoding the bitstream than the ps3. Though most people don't spend 1000K+ on a AVR.

While I am fine with PCM I noticed when my receiver gets PCM I can't run different Audio processes. I like to have THX Cinema, THX Games, and night mode for various situations.


----------



## JosephB

I'm still confused. 

If you were to play a Bluray on the XBone that is Dolby Digital only, not DTS, what do you get out of the HDMI port on the XBone? Uncompressed PCM? 

Honestly as long as it sends all 6 (or 8/9 as the case might be) channels of audio, I couldn't care less if it's uncompressed PCM or Dolby Digital. If it forces things like movies down to 2.1 stereo, then they have made a serious error when it comes to their priorities.


----------



## Grakthis

JosephB said:


> Wait, when watching a DVD or Bluray or playing a game or anything else where the audio is generated by the XBone (IE: not passthrough) it won't output Dolby Digital?
> 
> Does that apply only to the optical out or to the HDMI as well? That doesn't seem right at all. Sounds like maybe things are getting mixed up with the passthrough limitation (which a fix is in "beta" and is specifically related to a problem with passthrough)


I'm not 100% sure but this is my understanding... the Xbox One will generate DD (or whatever format you want).. but only output it via HDMI. The optical will output only stereo or DTS. There are no other options for the optical port. Which is what I use on my receiver.


----------



## Dan203

I think the confusion is coming from what the pass through port can do and what the XBox itself can do. I "think" that when you play games or play a BD you'll get DD 5.1 (or 7.1) sound. The issue is related to the pass through port. Because they are overlaying sounds into the live stream they have to decode it and then reencode it for output. It sounds like they don't have a DD license for that so the sound is downmixed to stereo PCM. Although there is some beta option to recode to DTS, so they apparently have a license for DTS.

In my experience with Dolby and DTS I can understand why. Getting a Dolby license is a HUGE PITA! They make you submit everything to them for certification and then you have to resubmit every time you update the software. This is why very few devices can actually encode DD audio. And software packages that offer it, mostly high end, include it as a plug-in because then they only have to re-certify when they update the plug-in and not every time they make a change in unrelated software.


----------



## Grakthis

rhettf said:


> Dolby Digital is coming post launch. This was a SW scheduling issue pure and simple, and I know people are disappointed, but we will have it.
> 
> Anyone with an HDMI receiver should be fine, as we pass the uncompressed 5.1 and 7.1 through HDMI as well as DTS. Even if you have a Dolby only HDMI receiver (which I'm not sure exists), you will still get 5.1 or 7.1 sound since those receivers should accept uncompressed surround.
> 
> http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90673295&postcount=240
> 
> Why do you need DD instead of DTS?


*nods* this is what I was assuming. It seemed obvious it would be added. It just means I can't sell my Ps3 yet, since it's my only BD player that will output DD via optical. Not a catastrophe.

I need DD instead of DTS because my receiver is from 2000 and as far as I know can't handle DTS. There is no DTS stamp on the receiver nor have I ever seen a DTS setting for the listen mode. It's stereo or DD 5.1.



> Thats what night mode is for or headphones


Yeah, not a fan of headphones unless I'm at my PC and even then only when I need the mic and I really just don't need 5.1 for watching Agents of SHIELD or an NBA game, you know? It's overkill. It's more important that I can hear my wife talking to me from the kitchen.



> In my experience playing audio through my TV (my AVR was broken for a couple weeks) bothered my neighbors and playing stuff through my receiver didn't. The audio that comes out of a TV are from speakers that tend to change the dynamic range and for whatever reason it's a frequency that passes through walls much easier.
> 
> There is some great benefits with HDMI like TrueHD or Master Audio. Its incredible how much more fidelity you'll get and you will get the ability to hear more at lower volumes.


So, we're stuck in a small house because my wife is about to finish medical school this year. So until her residency was set, we couldn't move (and her residency gets set in March, I think). We have one kid and another on the way. The next house, wherever it is, is going to have a basement with a dedicated media room and full floor between us and the sleeping kids. At that point, I will buy start shopping for a new receiver that can do HDMI and Miracast and run all of my audio through it. And we'll probably have a smaller TV upstairs that just runs through the TV speakers.

In the meantime, in our tiny house, it's just not feasible for me to spend time, effort or money on a sound setup that I can't run 90% of the time due to sleeping kids.



> If you only have one optical input will you not be using the big speaker with the xbox one either?
> 
> I totally get your understanding, just sharing my experience. It was crazy to me that my TV was more obnoxious than my full range speakers.


Tomorrow, no, I won't be running my Xbox One through the receiver. No place to hook it up with the PS3 occupying the optical. It's just going to have to wait until the optical can do DD and then I'll sell off the Ps3 to a friend and let the Xbox One take over the media duties. I assume the Xbox 360 is a brick once I move my Xbox Live sub over to the One, so I'll probably see if any of my co-workers wants to give me $50 for it. It's a first edition that's had a RRoD repaired on it, so it's not worth much.



> You could just get a chromecast, which will add miracast for $35 to any hdmi input.


Woah what? Since when does a chromecast do miracast? It's dial with a browser. I'm not aware of it enabling miracast functionality. Do you have a link for that? I have a chromecast on my bedroom TV. I love it. Sadly, my free netflix ran out, but just in time for my HBO Go to get added.


----------



## Grakthis

Dan203 said:


> I think the confusion is coming from what the pass through port can do and what the XBox itself can do. I "think" that when you play games or play a BD you'll get DD 5.1 (or 7.1) sound. The issue is related to the pass through port. Because they are overlaying sounds into the live stream they have to decode it and then reencode it for output. It sounds like they don't have a DD license for that so the sound is downmixed to stereo PCM. Although there is some beta option to recode to DTS, so they apparently have a license for DTS.
> 
> In my experience with Dolby and DTS I can understand why. Getting a Dolby license is a HUGE PITA! They make you submit everything to them for certification and then you have to resubmit every time you update the software. This is why very few devices can actually encode DD audio. And software packages that offer it, mostly high end, include it as a plug-in because then they only have to re-certify when they update the plug-in and not every time they make a change in unrelated software.


Ah, so the audio coming from a source material (BD disc or game) will already be encoded in DD 5.1, so there's no need for the license?


----------



## JosephB

I don't think it's an audit question, and it's still not 100% clear when this issue applies. There are a lot of situations that aren't clear:

1. Dolby Digital out through the optical port, source: HDMI passthrough
2. Dolby Digital out through HDMI out, source: HDMI passthrough
3. Dolby Digital out through optical port, source: Bluray, XBone game, Netflix app on XBone
4. Dolby Digital out through HDMI out, source: Bluray, XBone game, Netflix app on XBone

Obviously the first two are not working properly because of the "Dolby Digital for passthrough" is in beta. The question is what is the situation with 3 and 4. And, if DD is not available in situations 3 and 4, do you still get 5.1 multichannel audio, or do they mash it down to stereo?


----------



## Grakthis

According to what I read, the optical will not output DD no matter what the source is. But the HDMI will output whatever you need it to, except for pass-through.


----------



## rhettf

JosephB said:


> I don't think it's an audit question, and it's still not 100% clear when this issue applies. There are a lot of situations that aren't clear:
> 
> 1. Dolby Digital out through the optical port, source: HDMI passthrough
> 2. Dolby Digital out through HDMI out, source: HDMI passthrough
> 3. Dolby Digital out through optical port, source: Bluray, XBone game, Netflix app on XBone
> 4. Dolby Digital out through HDMI out, source: Bluray, XBone game, Netflix app on XBone
> 
> Obviously the first two are not working properly because of the "Dolby Digital for passthrough" is in beta. The question is what is the situation with 3 and 4. And, if DD is not available in situations 3 and 4, do you still get 5.1 multichannel audio, or do they mash it down to stereo?


It's actually very clear: There is No Dolby Digital Output from the Xbox One AT ALL. TV will be transcoded to DTS or Uncompressed Stereo OR 5.1 (if surround sound beta is on).

There is No passive pass through which would allow DD to get through instead the xbox touches all the video and audio.



Grakthis said:


> According to what I read, the optical will not output DD no matter what the source is. But the HDMI will output whatever you need it to, except for pass-through.


HDMI will not output DD either. The box just doesn't support DD currently. Which is insane since its the most common format.

These boxes are coming in hot, with unfinished software that is for sure!


----------



## rhettf

Grakthis said:


> Yeah, not a fan of headphones unless I'm at my PC and even then only when I need the mic and I really just don't need 5.1 for watching Agents of SHIELD or an NBA game, you know? It's overkill. It's more important that I can hear my wife talking to me from the kitchen.


Its overkill for diner, drive in's and dives, reality TV, and HGTV shows BUT I completely disagree with your two examples. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and sports are why there is 5.1 on TV Channels.

Why would watching The Avengers in 5.1 not be overkill but S.H.I.E.L.D is? They both have action set pieces that are great in 5.1

Why couldn't you have TV in 5.1 and turn down the volume when you need to hear someone or not bother them? If your speakers are calibrated correctly you won't lose the fidelity. I can easily hear my girlfriend from another room while watching TV.



Grakthis said:


> So, we're stuck in a small house because my wife is about to finish medical school this year. So until her residency was set, we couldn't move (and her residency gets set in March, I think). We have one kid and another on the way. The next house, wherever it is, is going to have a basement with a dedicated media room and full floor between us and the sleeping kids. At that point, I will buy start shopping for a new receiver that can do HDMI and Miracast and run all of my audio through it. And we'll probably have a smaller TV upstairs that just runs through the TV speakers.
> 
> In the meantime, in our tiny house, it's just not feasible for me to spend time, effort or money on a sound setup that I can't run 90% of the time due to sleeping kids.


I live in a 900 square feet apartment. So I get what you're saying but my point is that you could actually hear more and disturb people less with a proper 5.1 with night mode.

Totally understand not wanting to spend lots of money but with some proper calibration you could make things simplier.

If you need another optical input you can buy this really simple switcher for 7 bucks:

I use to use this beauty when I had only one input: http://www.monoprice.com/Product?se...&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CN-wjd_49roCFU7ZQgodOlYANg



Grakthis said:


> Woah what? Since when does a chromecast do miracast? It's dial with a browser. I'm not aware of it enabling miracast functionality. Do you have a link for that? I have a chromecast on my bedroom TV. I love it. Sadly, my free netflix ran out, but just in time for my HBO Go to get added.


Sorry I was really just combining dial/miracast since 90% of people don't use the little extra thing miracast does over DIAL. If you want a chromecast like sized device that does miracast here is one for $50 bucks:

http://www.amazon.com/Display-Dongl...=UTF8&qid=1385072732&sr=8-2&keywords=miracast


----------



## Dan203

Here is a quote from Microsoft's Albert Penello...



> Dolby Digital is coming post launch. This was a SW scheduling issue pure and simple, and I know people are disappointed, but we will have it. Anyone with an HDMI receiver should be fine, as we pass the uncompressed 5.1 and 7.1 through HDMI as well as DTS. Even if you have a Dolby only HDMI receiver (which I'm not sure exists), you will still get 5.1 or 7.1 sound since those receivers should accept uncompressed surround. For the Dolby only headsets, my understanding is that these will work but you will only get stereo audio since we only pass Stereo and DTS through the optical port. I have not tested this myself, but I'm told it works. Regardless, I understand this is an inconvenience, but again we're going to have Dolby coming."
> 
> This is unrelated to the HDMI-IN "Surround Sound" beta. To clarify, we default HDMI-IN audio to be converted to Stereo. However, we do have a feature you can access in TV settings/Troubleshooting that enables Surround Sound in "beta" form. If you check the box, and you get Surround, you're golden. We found some inconsistencies in STB's during testing and decided to disable it by default to insure a good initial setup experience for people.


So for HDMI out you'll get all audio formats. For HDMI pass-through there is a "beta" feature to enable DD but it doesn't work with all TVs/Receivers so it's disabled by default. Optical out is where the problem is. If you use optical out you will not get DD audio, only stereo or DTS. This is a problem because a lot of high end headsets use optical connections with built in DD decoders. For those you'll have to set output to stereo and depend on ProLogic to get fake surround sound.

Unfortunately the whole headset experience is going to be crippled on the XB1 at launch. Not only is DD sound not working on the optical port but they wont have the chat adapter available until February.

It really does feel like it was pushed to market before it was really ready to meet the holiday deadline.


----------



## JosephB

The PS4 is half baked too. Given that these consoles have a 10 year planned lifetime, I'm ok with them not being perfect out of the gate.


----------



## Dan203

Given that they've had 8 years to work on them I'm pretty surprised they're so half baked.


----------



## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> Given that they've had 8 years to work on them I'm pretty surprised they're so half baked.


Except that they haven't had 8 years. They have been putting a lot of resources into the Xbox 360 for a long time after it's launch. They weren't immediately writing code for XBone on the day the Xbox 360 launched. Come on, you know better than that.


----------



## Dan203

I know that. But they're both missing such basic functionality it just feels like bad planning.


----------



## rhettf

Dan203 said:


> Here is a quote from Microsoft's Albert Penello...
> 
> So for HDMI out you'll get all audio formats. For HDMI pass-through there is a "beta" feature to enable DD but it doesn't work with all TVs/Receivers so it's disabled by default. Optical out is where the problem is. If you use optical out you will not get DD audio, only stereo or DTS. This is a problem because a lot of high end headsets use optical connections with built in DD decoders. For those you'll have to set output to stereo and depend on ProLogic to get fake surround sound.
> 
> Unfortunately the whole headset experience is going to be crippled on the XB1 at launch. Not only is DD sound not working on the optical port but they wont have the chat adapter available until February.
> 
> It really does feel like it was pushed to market before it was really ready to meet the holiday deadline.


Where does he say it enables DD?

He says:



> Anyone with an HDMI receiver should be fine, as we pass the uncompressed 5.1 and 7.1 through HDMI as well as DTS. Even if you have a Dolby only HDMI receiver (which I'm not sure exists), you will still get 5.1 or 7.1 sound since those receivers should accept uncompressed surround.


Its uncompressed audio (PCM) and DTS there is no mention that it passes DD.

It's okay for people with HDMI because all HDMI receivers accept uncompressed 5.1 via HDMI.



Dan203 said:


> For HDMI pass-through there is a "beta" feature to enable DD but it doesn't work with all TVs/Receivers so it's disabled by default. Optical out is where the problem is.


Many sites reported that it doesn't enable DD. It's combining the DD 5.1 signal from your cable box with the xbox one audio and outputting uncompressed 5.1.


----------



## Dan203

You're right. He said the pass through beta feature would enable "surround sound" not DD, I just misinterpreted that.

So I think my original theory might be right and they do not have a DD license at all yet.

However that should not preclude them from passing through DD from BD discs that use it. As long as they don't alter the audio. Although I guess they might be overlaying onto the audio, just like they do with the pass through, in which case BDs would have the same issue.

Personally my receiver accepts 5.1/7.1 PCM just fine, so that wont be a problem for me. The only place this will be a problem for me is with my Turtle Beach headset. For that I guess I have to switch to 2.0 and allow it to do ProLogic. But those were already going to be a little FUed because of the lack of a chat adapter.


----------



## rhettf

Dan203 said:


> Personally my receiver accepts 5.1/7.1 PCM just fine, so that wont be a problem for me. The only place this will be a problem for me is with my Turtle Beach headset. For that I guess I have to switch to 2.0 and allow it to do ProLogic. But those were already going to be a little FUed because of the lack of a chat adapter.


Something I found concerning though:



> Here is what stephen_totilo who has an Xbox One said on /r/xboxone
> 
> _Correct. I reported this in the New York Times last week and was sure to get clarification about it from Microsoft in the process. In my case, my Time Warner Cable box's surround sound is downgraded to stereo by my Xbox One, but I am able to go into a troubleshooting menu within settings/TV&OneGuide and select a Surround Sound (Beta) option. That did push my cable audio back out into my 5.1 speakers. Caveat: I'm no audiophile, so I can't compare the mixes. for you that well. *I preferred the one I got directly from my Bose surround sound system when I had my cable box plugged directly into that.*_


This is why I will leave my Roamio plugged in directly and plug in a mini to my xbox one. For serious watching I'll use the Roamio, for casual the xbox one.


----------



## Dan203

Oh yeah. The decoder can make a big difference, especially if you have a good A/V receiver and have it calibrated to use specific EQ settings.

Personally I plan to use this for BDs and games. I'm hoping that for BDs they offer an option to pass through audio as-is without decoding inside the XBox, but I'll live with it for now if they don't. (hopefully they add an option in the future if it's not already doing this) For games I really need DD audio for it to be compatible with my Turtle Beach headset. I'm willing to live with stereo/PL for now, but I hope this gets fixed soon.


----------



## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> So I think my original theory might be right and they do not have a DD license at all yet.


I highly, HIGHLY doubt that is the problem. Given all of the things that Microsoft does that involves Dolby Digital, licensing it and dealing with any Dolby requirements is probably not an issue. If they can decode it with the beta option turned on for HDMI passthrough, even if it's outputting in PCM instead of compressed DD, they would need a license.


----------



## mikeyts

The device almost has to be Dolby licensed for BD playback. If they're going to give any kind of option for output of Dolby for people who are using S/PDIF or whose legacy AVRs can only handle basic DD and basic DTS over HDMI they need to be able to convert the more advanced sound formats into basic DD or basic DTS.


----------



## Dan203

Decoding is different then encoding. We have a DD decoding license in VRD. It's really easy to get. It's the encoding license that's a PITA.


----------



## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> Decoding is different then encoding. We have a DD decoding license in VRD. It's really easy to get. It's the encoding license that's a PITA.


I still highly doubt that Microsoft would have any problem at all getting a Dolby license of any kind.


----------



## Dan203

It's not that they'd have a problem, but as I said the process is complicated and requires recertification for every change, so they might have just been waiting for the software to stabilize before submitting for certification.


----------



## JosephB

So I have my Xbox One hooked up and everything already setup.

First, the TV setup is super smooth and simple.

Secondly, I have had zero problems with voice commands, even with the tv audio going and my kinect is sitting on top of my center channel speaker

Thirdly, the TV integration is a life changing feature. You can snap TV to the side while you do other things like browse netflix or setup match making in a game or even play a game. Just in the past 45 minutes of messing around, I cannot imagine living without it.

There is NO dolby digital output from the Xbox under any outputs. You have options as to what to set

For HDMI these are the output options:


For optical output these are the output options:


Finally, there is an option for blu-ray dolby digital:


However, I put in my Tron: Legacy Blu-Ray, which is DTS in English but the French audio is Dolby Digital 5.1. I have the Xbone HDMI output set to DTS, I played Tron: Legacy with French Dolby Digital and my receiver said DTS while french language was coming out of it.


----------



## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> It's not that they'd have a problem, but as I said the process is complicated and requires recertification for every change, so they might have just been waiting for the software to stabilize before submitting for certification.


I'm pretty sure Microsoft is of the size that they can get better terms for their development process. Given how many things are "coming soon" like some of the game DVR/live streaming, etc, I have to assume it was just lack of development resources.


----------



## rhettf

JosephB said:


> So I have my Xbox One hooked up and everything already setup.
> 
> First, the TV setup is super smooth and simple.
> 
> Secondly, I have had zero problems with voice commands, even with the tv audio going and my kinect is sitting on top of my center channel speaker
> 
> Thirdly, the TV integration is a life changing feature. You can snap TV to the side while you do other things like browse netflix or setup match making in a game or even play a game. Just in the past 45 minutes of messing around, I cannot imagine living without it.
> 
> There is NO dolby digital output from the Xbox under any outputs. You have options as to what to set
> 
> For HDMI these are the output options:
> 
> 
> For optical output these are the output options:
> 
> 
> Finally, there is an option for blu-ray dolby digital:
> 
> 
> However, I put in my Tron: Legacy Blu-Ray, which is DTS in English but the French audio is Dolby Digital 5.1. I have the Xbone HDMI output set to DTS, I played Tron: Legacy with French Dolby Digital and my receiver said DTS while french language was coming out of it.


How is the picture and sound quality of the cable feed when surround beta is on


----------



## JosephB

rhettf said:


> How is the picture and sound quality of the cable feed when surround beta is on


I have not, in my very limited testing, been able to tell a difference.

However, in general I'm probably not the best person to make such determinations. Most of the time "good enough" is fine with me.

I will say, though, that a couple of times that I started "watch TV" I didn't have any audio. I had to stop the TV app (and watching TV through the HDMI passthrough is an app just like netflix or hulu) and reopen it. This is with a 2 Tuner TiVo Premiere as my source.


----------



## rhettf

JosephB said:


> I have not, in my very limited testing, been able to tell a difference.
> 
> However, in general I'm probably not the best person to make such determinations. Most of the time "good enough" is fine with me.
> 
> I will say, though, that a couple of times that I started "watch TV" I didn't have any audio. I had to stop the TV app (and watching TV through the HDMI passthrough is an app just like netflix or hulu) and reopen it. This is with a 2 Tuner TiVo Premiere as my source.


Well thats good to know. I should be getting my xbox one in 29 minutes at work and will be leaving early to hook it up at home. Once I test out the picture quality I'll give my first impressions of the tv feature.

Overall it sounds like its really convenient but I think keeping a HDMI input that is only TV will be nice for guest.


----------



## Dan203

JosephB said:


> I will say, though, that a couple of times that I started "watch TV" I didn't have any audio. I had to stop the TV app (and watching TV through the HDMI passthrough is an app just like netflix or hulu) and reopen it. This is with a 2 Tuner TiVo Premiere as my source.


From what I've read this is a problem with the "beta" surround feature. I bet if you turned that off it would work better.


----------



## dbtom

JosephB,

Thanks for posting the screenshots. Is the Xbox able to control your Tivo at all? I'm planning on attaching my S3 -> Xbox -> TV. I could put it in a different room with a Premiere. I've been assuming I will just need to use the Tivo remote in either case. 

Complicating factor is I've got my S3 in a closet so I'm not even sure how I will do all this wiring.


----------



## HarperVision

rhettf said:


> ...
> For the most part this is true BUT if you have a really high end receiver it could do a better job of decoding the bitstream than the ps3. Though most people don't spend 1000K+ on a AVR...


I think a lot of people thought as you did too with the ps3 decoding but in the end it was rendered moot because you're going from a lossy (DD, DTS) digital format to a lossless (PCM). If it were the other way around there would be compression and interpolation and bits thrown away, then you'd be correct.


----------



## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> From what I've read this is a problem with the "beta" surround feature. I bet if you turned that off it would work better.


Yeah, I ended up turning it off.

I rarely watch anything on TV that having stereo only for a little while would be detrimental. Sometimes I watch movies on HBO, but I think with my receiver and its HDMI passthrough settings, I may be able to figure out a combination of input selections that I can have the receiver pass the Xbox video (and by extension the TiVo) to the TV yet play the audio from a digital audio input directly from the TiVo, although I'm wondering if I might have sync issues between the audio and video.



dbtom said:


> JosephB,
> 
> Thanks for posting the screenshots. Is the Xbox able to control your Tivo at all? I'm planning on attaching my S3 -> Xbox -> TV. I could put it in a different room with a Premiere. I've been assuming I will just need to use the Tivo remote in either case.
> 
> Complicating factor is I've got my S3 in a closet so I'm not even sure how I will do all this wiring.


Yep, it will control the TiVo just fine. Of course you basically only have the abilities to send remote key commands, so essentially your interactions with the TiVo from the Xbox will be limited to changing the channel on live TV. You could also yell out "Xbox Pause" and limited playback stuff like that, but you definitely will need the remote to navigate recordings and trick play. Given the limitations as they are now, it's not as bad as you would think.


----------



## muzzymate

I'm OTA-only using a Tivo Premiere. Is the OneGuide smart enough to display OTA channels?


----------



## JosephB

muzzymate said:


> I'm OTA-only using a Tivo Premiere. Is the OneGuide smart enough to display OTA channels?


Yep. When you set it up you just provide your zip code. It then gives you all the options you'd see if you were checking your listings on Zap2It

One thing that is a problem, though, is that you can't combine two lineups. So, if you're doing OTA + Cable on a Premiere or TiVo HD, you won't be able to have the OTA channels in the lineup.


----------



## Anthos

I just hooked my Xbox one to the premier 4, everything works nicely. I can't wait to play around with it later tonight.


----------



## supasta

Anthos said:


> I just hooked my Xbox one to the premier 4, everything works nicely. I can't wait to play around with it later tonight.


My connection to my Premiere 4 initially had issues. It turns out the problem was the Amazon Basics HDMI cable. The original HDMI cable supplied with my TiVo works perfectly!


----------



## mikeyts

I'm going to get an HDMI splitter so that I can play with it, though I doubt that I'll want to burn the power to run the Xbox just to be able to use OneGuide. The NFL app looks pretty cool but I'm not into football.


----------



## supasta

mikeyts said:


> I'm going to get an HDMI splitter so that I can play with it, though I doubt that I'll want to burn the power to run the Xbox just to be able to use OneGuide.


Great idea. I need to look into a splitter as well.


----------



## dbtom

I ran component to my TV and hdmi to my Xbox one so I could watch TiVo without using the Xbox and keep the Xbox TV functionality. I am not running a high end video system so it works pretty well for me. I am actually finding the voice command pretty useful so I am using it more than I expected.


----------



## speedz

supasta said:


> My connection to my Premiere 4 initially had issues. It turns out the problem was the Amazon Basics HDMI cable. The original HDMI cable supplied with my TiVo works perfectly!


A cable change to the one in the Xbox One Box worked for me solving my problems too. The cable on the HDMI out from the Xbox one to the TV did the trick.

The Xbox one integration with my Tivo S3 is working MUCH better than I had anticipated.


----------



## Anthos

speedz said:


> A cable change to the one in the Xbox One Box worked for me solving my problems too. The cable on the HDMI out from the Xbox one to the TV did the trick.
> 
> The Xbox one integration with my Tivo S3 is working MUCH better than I had anticipated.


I've decided to unhook the xbox from my tivo premier for now. Two things are bothering me, their is no pass through function as long as the xbox is off and I don't want to leave it on all the time. Second, I'm getting lag freezes when I go from a recording to live tv. I'm sure that can get fixed via a patch, but the leaving it on function isn't going to fly with me.


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## supasta

Anthos said:


> I've decided to unhook the xbox from my tivo premier for now. Two things are bothering me, their is no pass through function as long as the xbox is off and I don't want to leave it on all the time. Second, I'm getting lag freezes when I go from a recording to live tv. I'm sure that can get fixed via a patch, but the leaving it on function isn't going to fly with me.


I have unhooked my Premiere rom the Xbox One as well. I agree that I do not need the Xbox on all the time in order to watch TV, and until there is deeper integration with TiVo (fingers crossed), most of the TiVo functions remain unusable by voice command.


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## MarkEvans

Anthos said:


> I've decided to unhook the xbox from my tivo premier for now. Two things are bothering me, their is no pass through function as long as the xbox is off and I don't want to leave it on all the time. Second, I'm getting lag freezes when I go from a recording to live tv. I'm sure that can get fixed via a patch, but the leaving it on function isn't going to fly with me.


Not getting the lag from recordings to live Tv, I have to say that XB1 & Tivo perfect combination.


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## speedz

I understand the concern about leaving the Xbox One on just to watch TV. I share it, but am hopeful as their whole "entertainment" approach to the XB1 design should have presumed everyone would have it on much more often accordingly...

I have not had any freeze or lag issues. I had problems turning it back on after on Standby until I changed the HDMI out cable to the one provided in the Xbox packaging as noted in prior posts.

I can rewind, forward, pause, change channels, etc. all via voice. For anything one might need on occasion, you simply pick up the normal Tivo remote and it works like normal too! I can even say "xbox turn off" and my receiver, tv, and xbox all magically turn off together..."xbox on" does the reverse as well.

It was nice playing Fifa 14 and having NFL playing at the same time on top of all the voice commands.

My wife is very impressed with this setup as well. Good plus 

While it may not be perfect yet, this is a great foundation and I am sure they will fix most issues/concerns with patches in the future.

To clarify: I am using a Tivo S3 for comparison


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## gamo62

I haven't been able to get the control to work on the Roamio. I am using an RF remote, but it also takes IR codes as well. 

Suggestions?


----------



## aaronwt

I have 5.1 DD from my Roamio BAsic working on the input of the XBOne. The problem with the XBOne is the PCm output. It is not set to dynamically change based on the input. So with 7.1 pcm output selected, everything is output in a 7.1 wrapper. So 5.1 input from the Roamio results in two dead channels. Stereo input from the Roamio results in all channels dead but the FL and FR since no post processing can be applied. And this is also the case for any of the apps that have stereo or 5.1 audio. The only solution right now is to manually change the XBOne output between 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 depending on the content I'm watching so I can match the number of channels that the content has. Hopefully they enable the output to dynamically change at some point like it should be.

But otherwise it's certainly nice to be able to quickly switch between things using Kinect. Kinect has been almost flawless in my use. And the times it's messed up has been because I wasn't saying the full title name or I was try to say a command that didn't exist. Even when I turn the volume up way past a level I would normally use, I can just say something in a normal voice and the XBOne will respond.


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## JosephB

Having the Xbox One on all the time while you watch TV is the whole point of the integration. Microsoft wants you to be able to seamlessly flip between watching TV and a game. It's so that if you're vegging out in front of the TV, and a friend hops on, you will be able to see and can join them in a game, etc.


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## gamo62

aaronwt said:


> I have 5.1 DD from my Roamio BAsic working on the input of the XBOne. The problem with the XBOne is the PCm output. It is not set to dynamically change based on the input. So with 7.1 pcm output selected, everything is output in a 7.1 wrapper. So 5.1 input from the Roamio results in two dead channels. Stereo input from the Roamio results in all channels dead but the FL and FR since no post processing can be applied. And this is also the case for any of the apps that have stereo or 5.1 audio. The only solution right now is to manually change the XBOne output between 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 depending on the content I'm watching so I can match the number of channels that the content has. Hopefully they enable the output to dynamically change at some point like it should be.
> 
> But otherwise it's certainly nice to be able to quickly switch between things using Kinect. Kinect has been almost flawless in my use. And the times it's messed up has been because I wasn't saying the full title name or I was try to say a command that didn't exist. Even when I turn the volume up way past a level I would normally use, I can just say something in a normal voice and the XBOne will respond.


So, how do you manually change it to get DD?


----------



## Grakthis

aaronwt said:


> I have 5.1 DD from my Roamio BAsic working on the input of the XBOne. The problem with the XBOne is the PCm output. It is not set to dynamically change based on the input. So with 7.1 pcm output selected, everything is output in a 7.1 wrapper. So 5.1 input from the Roamio results in two dead channels. Stereo input from the Roamio results in all channels dead but the FL and FR since no post processing can be applied. And this is also the case for any of the apps that have stereo or 5.1 audio. The only solution right now is to manually change the XBOne output between 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 depending on the content I'm watching so I can match the number of channels that the content has. Hopefully they enable the output to dynamically change at some point like it should be.
> 
> But otherwise it's certainly nice to be able to quickly switch between things using Kinect. Kinect has been almost flawless in my use. And the times it's messed up has been because I wasn't saying the full title name or I was try to say a command that didn't exist. Even when I turn the volume up way past a level I would normally use, I can just say something in a normal voice and the XBOne will respond.


I don't think I'd say "almost flawless." For example, it sometimes struggles with background noise, and lots of the apps haven't fully implemented voice control. I got stuck in a spot on Amazon Instant Video where I HAD to use a controller to do something. And the voice commands themselves are not intuitive... you have to actually take the time to LEARN what voice commands do what. It would be nice if they were more universal... I am betting they will work towards that.

My 2 year old has also taken to repeating everything I say to the Xbox, which confuses the Xbox. So that's great. But that's use issues, not their fault.

I definitely like. It interfaces well with the TiVo, the setup was easy, gameplay has been great and the media stuff has been great (though, the Amazon stream downgraded the video an awful lot for my liking) but it hasn't been "flawless."


----------



## Grakthis

Anthos said:


> I've decided to unhook the xbox from my tivo premier for now. Two things are bothering me, their is no pass through function as long as the xbox is off and I don't want to leave it on all the time. Second, I'm getting lag freezes when I go from a recording to live tv. I'm sure that can get fixed via a patch, but the leaving it on function isn't going to fly with me.


What's wrong with leaving the Xbox On all the time? I mean, of course, you turn it off when you're not watching TV. But the design of the One is that, if your TV is on, it's on. This isn't like the 360 where you had to worry about heat and wearing out. It's specifically intended to be always on. Even when it's "off" it's actually just in a stand-by mode. Are you concerned about privacy? Is that the issue?

I've found that the power-on + login time on my One is actually almost IDENTICAL to the bootup time on my smartTV such that I never actually see the Xbox power on.

I am having issues getting my One to turn on with voice command though. I keep having to push the button. That hasn't been an inconvenience yet though, cause I walk past it on my way to the couch. It's just confusing.

I have not had any lag anywhere. Not sure why the One would cause lag on the TiVo.


----------



## Anthos

Grakthis said:


> What's wrong with leaving the Xbox On all the time? I mean, of course, you turn it off when you're not watching TV. But the design of the One is that, if your TV is on, it's on. This isn't like the 360 where you had to worry about heat and wearing out. It's specifically intended to be always on. Even when it's "off" it's actually just in a stand-by mode. Are you concerned about privacy? Is that the issue?
> 
> I've found that the power-on + login time on my One is actually almost IDENTICAL to the bootup time on my smartTV such that I never actually see the Xbox power on.
> 
> I am having issues getting my One to turn on with voice command though. I keep having to push the button. That hasn't been an inconvenience yet though, cause I walk past it on my way to the couch. It's just confusing.
> 
> I have not had any lag anywhere. Not sure why the One would cause lag on the TiVo.


I'm not concerned about privacy, I'm concerned about energy consumption. I'm also waiting to see that leaving it on doesn't damage the unit itself, despite reports of being designed to "stay on for 10 years." When I start reading more detailed data on the effects of leaving it on I'll reconsider my opinion.

As for the lag, it is what it is. I don't expect everyone to have the same issues but I know of others having similar problems. Like I said, I expect a patch to address these issues. I'm very glad your experience has been a good one, other than my concerns it has been for me as well.


----------



## rhettf

Well after a weekend with the Xbox One I am ready to share my experience. Overall the Xbox One is a forward thinking box with a lot of potential. There are some bugs though. 

I have my system setup as follows: 

TiVo Mini --> Xbox One --> iScan Duo --> Video only HDMI to TV & Audio only HDMI to AVR 

Setup was very easy, I have some NAT issues with the XB1 but thats a different topic, generally I find both console to not play well with sonicwalls...going to start programming my policies for it after this post.

I turned on the surround sound option immediately, the picture quality and sound were great with my TiVo Mini, I'm still keeping my TiVo Roamio on its own input for the time being since I have come across a few issues. I did some side by side testing of the picture/sound quality and I really couldn't see it, I should mention I am using a iScan Duo which can work some magic in keeping picture quality top notch. 

First issues: Sometimes the Audio doesn't kick in immediately and the TV Video signal will stutter when I first started using TV. 

Second issue (and the worse): Sometimes the TV App doesn't work whatsoever. I get an error code and the app won't open, then every app stops working too: games, netflix, IE, really everything. The only solution I have found is to physically unplug the Xbox One, since turning it off just puts it in a Standby state. This happened to me twice over the weekend. 

Third issue: Xbox Snap TV is great but I have notice some performance issues depending on the App you have running in the main screen. I was able to play Forza 5 while watching Top Gear without a hiccup. But when using the Avatar generator while watching TV in snap mode I had major stuttering. 

These are some very minor hiccups though and the overall experience is fantastic. I will eventually plug my Roamio directly in once surround sound is out of beta and the performance is more stable. You get the sense you're a beta tester with the xbox one currently. 


Other gripes about the xbox one but not about home theater/TV: setting up chat/game parties are not as intuitive as the xbox 360. Especially with Dead Rising 3, you have to start a party, then one of you needs to start a story mode, then you pause and invite party to game. This worked for us once, but then stopped. 

Kinect sign in really needs to be in a bright room. When my gf setup her profile she was in a dark area on the couch, it was late at night. Now even after she was gone the game would sign me in as her when I sat on the couch! I ended up turning off Kinect sign in for us since the room just isn't bright enough for it to work well. The really annoying part was when I was in a chat party. I would be using a headset plugged into the controller but when it signed in my gf's profile the headset stopped working and chat went to the kinect/speakers. I would have to say Xbox sign in as Rhett and chat would come back into my headset. I assume this was because the xbox though she was holding the controller and maybe if she was holding a different controller chat would still come through my headset. I see how this is suppose to work but it just wasn't because of my kinect sign in issues. The xbox does know who is holding the controller and when you put it down (really awesome for battery life). 

It's odd how the party chat is tided to the game your in. I need to try talking to more people at once in different parties.

Overall I am very happy with the Xbox One. I actually started regretting my PS4 purchase since I had no desire to take myself out of the Xbox One experience...its okay though I played my ps3 for naughty dog games and exclusives. I'm sure I'll play it when second son or uncharted is out.

the ps4 is the perfect ps3. The Xbox One picks up where the 360 left off and shows its ready to grow for the future! All of my issues can be fixed via software and its pretty clear how much room there is for the xbox one to grow. The dashboard could use more customization for example, I would love to make folders/Categories in My Games & Apps sorta like a Windows 8 Start screen. 

I give the Xbox One a 8/10. All the groundwork is there but some polishing is needed. In 6 months it will be a 9/10 and in a year 10/10

Now I got way to many games to play: COD, BF4, Dead Rising 3, Forza 5 on Xbox One. Need For Speed Rivals, Killzone, and AC4 on PS4. I wish I waited on NFS Rivals and AC4 and bought them on my xbox one so I could still use all the other features of the one!


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## rhettf

Anthos said:


> I'm not concerned about privacy, I'm concerned about energy consumption. I'm also waiting to see that leaving it on doesn't damage the unit itself, despite reports of being designed to "stay on for 10 years." When I start reading more detailed data on the effects of leaving it on I'll reconsider my opinion.


When the Xbox one is in Standby it uses half a watt of energy. When in the standby mode that allows for you to say "Xbox On" it uses 14 watts of energy, for comparison and TiVo Roamio (base model) uses 14 watts of energy.

When the Xbox One is on it uses on average 72 Watts. When playing a game is 120 watts, a blu ray playback is 80 watts. Watching TV is around 72.

So lets figure you watch 5 hours of TV a Day and paying .25 cents per KiloWatt Hour. Your cost of using the xbox one with it would be $32.85 a year.

0.075 Watts × 5 hours = 0.375 kWh (kiloWatt-hour) of energy.

0.375 kWh × $0.25f/kWh = $0.09

0.09 x 365 days = $32.85

A TiVo Roamio cost $7.3 a year to run.

So you're looking at $40.15 a year if you're watching 5 hours of TV/Xbox One every day. Not to shabby if you ask me.


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## Warp

Anthos said:


> I'm not concerned about privacy, I'm concerned about energy consumption. I'm also waiting to see that leaving it on doesn't damage the unit itself, despite reports of being designed to "stay on for 10 years." When I start reading more detailed data on the effects of leaving it on I'll reconsider my opinion.


I have a Kill-a-Watt power meter. I'll see if I can find time to hook the Xbox One up through it tonight and get power usage numbers in various scenarios (e.g. when the Xbox is in standby, when it's playing a game, when it's just passing through TV).

The power usage concern is probably valid. Not so much for when you're watching TV, but for the standby power usage (our Xbox will be in standby something like 20-22 hours per day on average).

I wouldn't worry about any ill effects on the hardware from leaving the Xbox on. It really is designed to be used that way. And have you seen the vents on this thing and size of the fan that's inside (see the iFixit teardown)? Cooling for the Xbox one is not going to be a problem.  Not to mention that the unit is nearly silent. Large fans have real advantages.


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## Warp

rhettf said:


> When the Xbox one is in Standby it uses half a watt of energy. When in the standby mode that allows for you to say "Xbox On" it uses 14 watts of energy, for comparison and TiVo Roamio (base model) uses 14 watts of energy.
> 
> When the Xbox One is on it uses on average 72 Watts. When playing a game is 120 watts, a blu ray playback is 80 watts. Watching TV is around 72.


I was going to hook up a watt meter and get these values tonight, but maybe I don't need to. Are these your own measurements? Or are they from some particular web site?


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## rhettf

Warp said:


> I was going to hook up a watt meter and get these values tonight, but maybe I don't need to. Are these your own measurements? Or are they from some particular web site?


These aren't my own measurements, but you can find many articles that discuss the power usage. I found this one to be the best:

http://anandtech.com/show/7528/the-xbox-one-mini-review-hardware-analysis/5


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## Dan203

rhettf said:


> When the Xbox one is in Standby it uses half a watt of energy. When in the standby mode that allows for you to say "Xbox On" it uses 14 watts of energy, for comparison and TiVo Roamio (base model) uses 14 watts of energy.


I tried using the full power off mode and my one complaint is that boot up is sloooooow. It sits on that green screen for like 10-15 seconds, then it shows the XBox logo for another 10+ seconds before it finally boots up. With the other option it comes on in less then 5 seconds. I know it seems petty, but I set it to the fast boot mode just because I'm impatient and don't want to wait 20-30 seconds for the console to boot every time.


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## mikeyts

rhettf said:


> When the Xbox one is in Standby it uses half a watt of energy. When in the standby mode that allows for you to say "Xbox On" it uses 14 watts of energy, for comparison and TiVo Roamio (base model) uses 14 watts of energy.
> 
> When the Xbox One is on it uses on average 72 Watts. When playing a game is 120 watts, a blu ray playback is 80 watts. Watching TV is around 72.
> 
> So lets figure you watch 5 hours of TV a Day and paying .25 cents per KiloWatt Hour. Your cost of using the xbox one with it would be $32.85 a year.
> 
> 0.075 Watts × 5 hours = 0.375 kWh (kiloWatt-hour) of energy.
> 
> 0.375 kWh × $0.25f/kWh = $0.09
> 
> 0.09 x 365 days = $32.85
> 
> A TiVo Roamio cost $7.3 a year to run.
> 
> So you're looking at $40.15 a year if you're watching 5 hours of TV/Xbox One every day. Not to shabby if you ask me.


AnandTech measured the alert standby mode as consuming 15.3W, more than a TiVo Roamio Basic when recording all 4 tuners. I've been using it (with "Xbox On" turned off) because of the instant restart of the game you were playing; it's probably not worth it even for that and I may stop.

It's not the monetary cost, it's the pissing power away when easily avoided for no real gain.


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## Warp

rhettf said:


> These aren't my own measurements, but you can find many articles that discuss the power usage. I found this one to be the best:
> 
> http://anandtech.com/show/7528/the-xbox-one-mini-review-hardware-analysis/5


Thanks for the link to the anandtech article. I definitely trust Anand's numbers.

While the standby number of 15 watts (for the fast-resume and voice-control power commands) is fairly high, I'm still going to use that mode. The ability to be fully booted by the time my TV displays a picture is worth it.

I'm also really surprised how useful I'm finding the voice-control power commands. There's something magical about walking into the room, saying "Xbox On", and having the entire system (xbox, tv, AV receiver) being ready to watch/play by the time I sit down on the couch. The same goes for shutting the system off. My Harmony is going to get far less use now that I have the Xbox One. Yes, I still need the remote for DVR'd content, but what if TiVo creates an Xbox One app that let's the DVR'd content play directly from the app? I'm optimistic that this will eventually happen.


----------



## mikeyts

Dan203 said:


> I tried using the full power off mode and my one complaint is that boot up is sloooooow. It sits on that green screen for like 10-15 seconds, then it shows the XBox logo for another 10+ seconds before it finally boots up. With the other option it comes on in less then 5 seconds. I know it seems petty, but I set it to the fast boot mode just because I'm impatient and don't want to wait 20-30 seconds for the console to boot every time.


Wow! Yours is very fast. It takes about 14-16 seconds to come up from standby and the last game played starts instantly where you left off; from power-saver standby (an outstanding .22W) it takes about 50 seconds and the last game you played starts up from scratch. (That 50 seconds is 20 seconds slower than the Xbox 360).


----------



## Coffee

My only thought is that it looks a lot like a TiVo HD.


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## Dan203

mikeyts said:


> Wow! Yours is very fast. It takes about 14-16 seconds to come up from standby and the last game played starts instantly where you left off; from power-saver standby (an outstanding .22W) it takes about 50 seconds and the last game you played starts up from scratch. (That 50 seconds is 20 seconds slow than the Xbox 360).


I was guessing. I should probably time it. I just know it was significantly slower from a cold boot.


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## rhettf

mikeyts said:


> It's not the monetary cost, it's the pissing power away when easily avoided for no real gain.


I respect your opinion that there is no real gain, its great that you're energy conscious.

IMO it's not pissing power, the gain of being able to Say XBOX ON when I walk into my living room is huge. I have been dreaming about doing that for years. I'll pay for things that make my entertainment/relaxation center easier anyday.

What pissing power to me is using incandescents/CFLs when LEDs are fantastic these days. I went from using on average 500-600 watts (up to 1,300 if all lights were on) of power to only 40watts (100 watts if all lights are on). I have owned the same LED bulbs for three years now and they will work for another 6 easily with my usage level. Thats some real power savings! Which I don't even get to see yet since I live in an apartment that includes all utilities in my rent...it did make my landlord happy...


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## rhettf

Warp said:


> I'm also really surprised how useful I'm finding the voice-control power commands. There's something magical about walking into the room, saying "Xbox On", and having the entire system (xbox, tv, AV receiver) being ready to watch/play by the time I sit down on the couch. The same goes for shutting the system off. My Harmony is going to get far less use now that I have the Xbox One. Yes, I still need the remote for DVR'd content, but what if TiVo creates an Xbox One app that let's the DVR'd content play directly from the app? I'm optimistic that this will eventually happen.


I like to think there will be many TiVo owners who also have an Xbox One.

Considering people can already make 3rd party network remotes, like KMTGG, if/when MS opens up the App platform to developers on the Xbox One we could see a great add on!


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## Dan203

Just timed it with a stop watch. Took about 16 second to boot up, recognize me and show the home screen in fast mode. In energy saver mode it took 1:05. That's a pretty significant difference.


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## Warp

rhettf said:


> I like to think there will be many TiVo owners who also have an Xbox One.


Interesting personal anecdote... I actually returned to the TiVo platform specifically because of Xbox One and it's TV integration features. I had previously been using Windows Media Center with Xbox 360s as extenders, but since Xbox wasn't going to have Media Center Extender functionality, I knew I'd need a new solution going forward. TiVo seemed like it would probably work well.

So far, I'm very happy with my return to TiVo. The TiVo solution is far better than when I left it a few years ago, and the TiVo is working well with the Xbox One pass thru functionality.

With the rumors about a more open Xbox One platform, where apps will provide a lot of media content (e.g. Netflix, Amazon Instant, Hulu, etc.), I have high hopes that there will also be a TiVo app for Xbox One sometime in the future that will provide better integration between TiVo and Xbox One (e.g. integrated access to recorded content).

My only concern that this might not happen (at least officially from TiVo) is that in a small way, TiVo and Xbox One compete. TiVo is also trying to be that app platform, and provides access to things like Netflix. I think both TiVo and Microsoft want to be "in control" of the entertainment experience in the living room.

It will be interesting to see how things play out over the next couple years.


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## rhettf

Warp said:


> My only concern that this might not happen (at least officially from TiVo) is that in a small way, TiVo and Xbox One compete. TiVo is also trying to be that app platform, and provides access to things like Netflix. I think both TiVo and Microsoft want to be "in control" of the entertainment experience in the living room.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how things play out over the next couple years.


Thats a very good point.

Apart of me wants to think they could at the very least support more basic support: Xbox TiVo brings up the Menu for example, being able to use the left/right/up/down buttons.

This is IMO the dream integration: Tivo allows the xbox to pull in all recorded shows info into the OneGuide, sorta like the iOS TiVo App. When you say Xbox OneGuide one option is DVR with all your shows, you then can see all your folders and pick a show! Man just thinking about that is titillating.

Xbox OneGuide > DVR/MyShows > How I Met Your Mother/Select 4 > Episode Name/Play 1

A problem with that is TiVo can bring you through the menus and they lose out on potential upsells on movie rentals and ad content...sure you can argue that you don't see those when you use a network remote already...but I dunno.


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## mikeyts

rhettf said:


> I respect your opinion that there is no real gain, its great that you're energy conscious.
> 
> IMO it's not pissing power, the gain of being able to Say XBOX ON when I walk into my living room is huge.


To each his own. I'm currently using Standby Mode on my Xbox for the instant resumption of the game that I was playing after a 14 second restart but I'm unsure whether its worth the savings of about 1 minute waiting so I may stop. I have "Xbox On" deselected because that's not useful at all in my setup. My Xbox is attached to the same television and AVR as is this PC, my TiVo, PS3, Xbox 360, Panasonic BDP, WD TV Live and Roku 3. I switch between these things using a Harmony One; I have to have the Harmony in my hand in order to switch to using the Xbox One, so pressing a button on it to power the console up is no significant additional effort. Also a TV ad could inadvertently turn on the console (I've seen YouTube clips demonstrating the console following voice commands in a TV ad played in the same room). I do pretty much always turn it off with a voice command.

EDIT: I just timed restarting an Xbox One game from Standby/OFF with a stopwatch (restarting _Ryse_) and it took 20.25 seconds to get back into the game from Standby and 1 minute 38.4 seconds from Power Saver OFF. That 1 minute 18 seconds time savings is pretty compelling.


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## rhettf

mikeyts said:


> To each his own. I'm currently using Standby Mode on my Xbox for the instant resumption of the game that I was playing after a 14 second restart but I'm unsure whether its worth the savings of about 1 minute waiting so I may stop. I have "Xbox On" deselected because that's not useful at all in my setup. My Xbox is attached to the same television and AVR as is this PC, my TiVo, PS3, Xbox 360, Panasonic BDP, WD TV Live and Roku 3. I switch between these things using a Harmony One; I have to have the Harmony in my hand in order to switch to using the Xbox One, so pressing a button on it to power the console up is no significant additional effort. Also a TV ad could inadvertently turn on the console (I've seen YouTube clips demonstrating the console following voice commands in a TV ad played in the same room). I do pretty much always turn it off with a voice command.


I have a very similar setup and use a Harmony 900. But I changed the method in which I interact with the equipment:

I have left my harmony 900 in the Xbox One Activity, so it thinks the TV is on. Whenever I start using my setup the first thing I do is say "Xbox On".

If I need to switch to my Playstation 4/Oppo I do it after I say Xbox On. Then when I am done I start the Xbox One Activity again and say "Xbox Off" and it turns off my TV.

All my other devices (avr/iScan Duo) have automatic power on based off when a video signal is detected. It than has a auto shut off 30 seconds after no signal is detected.

I just really like having the XBox One be the center of my experience and since 90% of the time I'm just watching TV/playing xbox games I have yet to pick up my harmony remote since I got the XB1, I do still pick up my TiVo Roamio remote though while watching TV through the XB1.

Having the xbox on in the background while on other activities allows me to say xbox mute regardless of what component I am using 

What does your WD live do that your Roku doesn't and vice versa?


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## mikeyts

rhettf said:


> What does your WD live do that your Roku doesn't and vice versa?


I like having this stream status overlay available when watching Netflix and the TV Live has it and Roku 3 does not. The TV Live is the single most capable LAN file player of anything in my rig other than the PC and it can play things that my PC can't. (The PC that I used before this one had insufficient CPU speed to play 1080p rips so I used my PS3 to play them via DLNA. The PS3 was incapable of bitstreaming DTS sound from files streamed over DLNA so I converted such files in MKV containers with mkv2vob into the same video in MP4 containers with a stereo PCM track; the stereo PCM track when received by AVRs would be seen as bitstreamed DTS. I collected a significant stack of these before upgrading my PC, on which I now generally play all video files, but that bunch of special conversions could only be played on the PS3. I was shocked to find that TV Live can play them ).

TiVo Roamio has replaced TV Live as my favorite Netflix player. It has the stream status display and is some orders of magnitude more responsive to commands.

I invested in a couple of half meter cables and an HDMI splitter to connect my TiVo to my Xbox One just to check it out the "watch TV function" and to have the capability but I do not anticipate using it much (the TiVo is on a shelf directly above the AVR and adjacent to the Xbox One; it's currently connected to the AVR with a 1 meter cable. I got the splitter but mistakenly thought I had a couple of short cables but I didn't so I'm waiting for them rather than use longer cables inside the cabinet). It won't add much that I'd find to be useful and will increase power consumption required to watch my TiVo by 60W or (probably) more.


----------



## JosephB

Warp said:


> Interesting personal anecdote... I actually returned to the TiVo platform specifically because of Xbox One and it's TV integration features. I had previously been using Windows Media Center with Xbox 360s as extenders, but since Xbox wasn't going to have Media Center Extender functionality, I knew I'd need a new solution going forward. TiVo seemed like it would probably work well.


I have an HDHomeRun on the way that I snagged off eBay for testing because I'm thinking of going in the opposite direction. I'm thinking of setting up my Xbox 360 through the HDMI in port on the XBone and using the 360 as an MCE. This way I would have literally every single thing on the Xbone's input--TV, apps that aren't on Xbone yet (HBO), 360 games that I still play, and the Xbone itself.

Haven't decided that's where I'm going because I want to test out the whole Windows Media Center ecosystem, and how I want to run it without having to buy any additional hardware (if it results in me needing to spend $300-700 on a computer, then it's not worth it)


----------



## mikeyts

I've read someone in AVS Forums say that SKIP FORWARD and PAUSE worked for him in the TV app to control his Comcast DVR. Do they work with TiVo?


----------



## rhettf

mikeyts said:


> I've read someone in AVS Forums say that SKIP FORWARD and PAUSE worked for him in the TV app to control his Comcast DVR. Do they work with TiVo?


Yes

Just say xbox skip forward or skip back/backwards

OR

Press RB to Skip forward and LB to Skip backward


----------



## slowbiscuit

rhettf said:


> What pissing power to me is using incandescents/CFLs when LEDs are fantastic these days.


Agree on incandescents but not CFLs, a CFL does not use much more juice than an LED and is WAY cheaper now. Agree that an LED will last longer but they are just not cost-competitive right now for me, and don't have enough energy savings to justify the extra cost.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Warp said:


> My only concern that this might not happen (at least officially from TiVo) is that in a small way, TiVo and Xbox One compete. TiVo is also trying to be that app platform, and provides access to things like Netflix. I think both TiVo and Microsoft want to be "in control" of the entertainment experience in the living room.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how things play out over the next couple years.


Well hopefully they WILL compete as we move away from crappy cards and into the IPTV world. What remains to be seen is if MS will be interested in the DVR aspects instead of just streaming everything. If they aren't, I won't be interested in the Xbone.


----------



## AARGH2K

Anyone having an issue with fast forwarding or reversing and the screen freezes, and doesn't resume until you hit play? This is with a Series 3 Tivo. I've restarted the Tivo, and cycled the Xbox 1, and did the setup again, to no avail. Could this be a symptom to a bad HDMI cable? From reading posts, it seems to be a bit more particular than most.


----------



## rhettf

slowbiscuit said:


> Agree on incandescents but not CFLs, a CFL does not use much more juice than an LED and is WAY cheaper now. Agree that an LED will last longer but they are just not cost-competitive right now for me, and don't have enough energy savings to justify the extra cost.


i hate the light CFLs produce...I studied lighting design in college so I can be a snob about it.

The initial investment is high, no if's ands or buts about it. Thought over the course of the led bulbs lifespand you will save significant money! I had 16 incandescents and moved them all too LEDs and over the span of the led bulb I'll have saved $3,000 in energy cost! The CFL to LED will save you $500 over the course of the led's lifespan.

Yes the bulb price is high but the savings are there still. Plus the philips leds produce the closest light color to incandescent lights.

Plus you can get CFL LIFX bulbs! I got these puppies on the way and I'll sell my led's to a friend. http://lifx.co/


----------



## rhettf

AARGH2K said:


> Anyone having an issue with fast forwarding or reversing and the screen freezes, and doesn't resume until you hit play? This is with a Series 3 Tivo. I've restarted the Tivo, and cycled the Xbox 1, and did the setup again, to no avail. Could this be a symptom to a bad HDMI cable? From reading posts, it seems to be a bit more particular than most.


Do you have surround on?

It have a feeling boxes like the series aren't as well supported by the xbox one. My Roamio works flawlessly with little to no impact on sound and pic quality.


----------



## mikeyts

I just hooked up a splitter to my TiVo, which works great. I am signally unimpressed with the TV app, though. Somehow it's less responsive to my voice while it's running, making it frustrating to use and I find the command set to be highly unintuitive. It also doesn't show a sufficient number of channels at a time to please me. I'm not going to be using it other than to perhaps demonstrate it to friends.


----------



## aaronwt

gamo62 said:


> So, how do you manually change it to get DD?


There is a check box in the settings that says it's beta to enable surround sound. You will still get multi-channel pcm on the output, but the XBOne is decoding the DD from the TiVo. When the TiVo is sending DD you will never hear any TiVos sounds. That was how I knew initially that it was sending stereo pcm into the XBOne. And then of course it's easy to tell when only audio is coming out of the FL/FR speakers. Since the XBOne has not been updated yet to dynamically change the audio output channels like a proper performing device should.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> I tried using the full power off mode and my one complaint is that boot up is sloooooow. It sits on that green screen for like 10-15 seconds, then it shows the XBox logo for another 10+ seconds before it finally boots up. With the other option it comes on in less then 5 seconds. I know it seems petty, but I set it to the fast boot mode just because I'm impatient and don't want to wait 20-30 seconds for the console to boot every time.


This is why I use the fast boot option. I can say "Xbox On" and it's ready before my TV is ready. Since my Mitsubishi DLP takes the longest to start up out of any DLP set I've owned. But for the convenience I'll eat the 14 or 18 watts. Plus it's nice to get back into a game I was playing quickly. But the 14 to 18 watts is well worth it for the next gen experience. Even though on days like today, I never used the XBOne. 
But I'll use it tomorrow morning.

Just in the short time I've use the XBOne with Kinect, I couldn't imagine using the system with just the controller. Using voice commands, gestures, and the controller is so much better than just using the controller to navigate.


----------



## aaronwt

rhettf said:


> I respect your opinion that there is no real gain, its great that you're energy conscious.
> 
> IMO it's not pissing power, the gain of being able to Say XBOX ON when I walk into my living room is huge. I have been dreaming about doing that for years. I'll pay for things that make my entertainment/relaxation center easier anyday.
> 
> What pissing power to me is using incandescents/CFLs when LEDs are fantastic these days. I went from using on average 500-600 watts (up to 1,300 if all lights were on) of power to only 40watts (100 watts if all lights are on). I have owned the same LED bulbs for three years now and they will work for another 6 easily with my usage level. Thats some real power savings! Which I don't even get to see yet since I live in an apartment that includes all utilities in my rent...it did make my landlord happy...


Going from incandescents to CFL or LEDs makes sense, but going from CFLs to LEDs is only minor savings. I've been using CFLs for many years, and the cost of going to LED for only a small percentage in electricity savings was not worth it, especially since I would never recoup the cost. I still have CFLs that are working from many, many years ago. The cost of the LED bulbs is still many times the cost of CFL for only a small wattage savings.

When I first went to CFLs I had huge savings since I had four or five Halogen lamps that used 500 watt bulbs each. Those all were replaced with Fluorescents that used only 20% of the electricity and gave me close to the same light output. I'm not even sure if I could get LEDs that would output the same amount of light through out the room. But I know if it is available it would be super expensive, and the lamp would break down before I would recoup the cost of it with savings over Fluorescents


----------



## rhettf

aaronwt said:


> Going from incandescents to CFL or LEDs makes sense, but going from CFLs to LEDs is only minor savings. I've been using CFLs for many years, and the cost of going to LED for only a small percentage in electricity savings was not worth it, especially since I would never recoup the cost. I still have CFLs that are working from many, many years ago. The cost of the LED bulbs is still many times the cost of CFL for only a small wattage savings.
> 
> When I first went to CFLs I had huge savings since I had four or five Halogen lamps that used 500 watt bulbs each. Those all were replaced with Fluorescents that used only 20% of the electricity and gave me close to the same light output. I'm not even sure if I could get LEDs that would output the same amount of light through out the room. But I know if it is available it would be super expensive, and the lamp would break down before I would recoup the cost of it with savings over Fluorescents


I guess you didn't see my post about how I dislike the color tempature of CFLs, I studied lighting design and frankly CFLs make me feel like I'm in a hospital.


----------



## HarperVision

rhettf said:


> ... I studied lighting design and frankly CFLs make me feel like I'm in a hospital.


 .......and reading this thread lately makes me feel like I'm on the wrong forum!


----------



## JosephB

HarperVision said:


> .......and reading this thread lately makes me feel like I'm on the wrong forum!


A forum full of nerds talking about mundane and intimate details of technology that the general public couldn't care less about? Nope, you're in the right place


----------



## dianebrat

JosephB said:


> A forum full of nerds talking about mundane and intimate details of technology that the general public couldn't care less about? Nope, you're in the right place


:up: TCF at its best! and that's why I love TCF


----------



## aaronwt

rhettf said:


> I guess you didn't see my post about how I dislike the color tempature of CFLs, I studied lighting design and frankly CFLs make me feel like I'm in a hospital.


Ive always purchased 6500k cfls. I avoid the bluish or yellowish ones since that is not natural looking. I used to have to get them online but now they are available in local stores.


----------



## doydel

AARGH2K said:


> Anyone having an issue with fast forwarding or reversing and the screen freezes, and doesn't resume until you hit play? This is with a Series 3 Tivo. I've restarted the Tivo, and cycled the Xbox 1, and did the setup again, to no avail. Could this be a symptom to a bad HDMI cable? From reading posts, it seems to be a bit more particular than most.


Yes, I was having the exact same issue with my Series 3. I fixed it by changing the IR delay setting to fast. This setting can be found under settings/tv & guide/troubleshooting.
After I changed that setting the fast forward/rewind worked like normal. Please note that you may have to reset the tivo and or xbox along with changing the IR delay to fast again. I say this because the fix i described stopped working after a few minutes but after I did the reboot and changed the IR setting it worked permanetly.
Hope this helps...


----------



## supasta

Well, I have decided to reconnect my TiVo Premiere to the Xbox One. The voice control for pausing, as well as "Xbox ON" also turning on my soundbar and TV were features that are just too cool.


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## aaronwt

I have not gone back to messing with the XBOne controlling my TiVo. When I first tried it the XB1 was using remote code zero. Did anyone find a way to have it use remote codes 1 through 9?


----------



## AARGH2K

doydel said:


> Yes, I was having the exact same issue with my Series 3. I fixed it by changing the IR delay setting to fast. This setting can be found under settings/tv & guide/troubleshooting.
> After I changed that setting the fast forward/rewind worked like normal. Please note that you may have to reset the tivo and or xbox along with changing the IR delay to fast again. I say this because the fix i described stopped working after a few minutes but after I did the reboot and changed the IR setting it worked permanetly.
> Hope this helps...


Since I wasn't using the XBOX One to control the Tivo, this is not a factor. It's not an issue of control, but of not being able to keep up with the Tivo when I fast forward, change channels or go to Tivo home and it blacking out or freezing what was on screen when I do something. I have now taken the tivo out of the pass-through and back into the receiver and it works fine. Hopefully a patch or something will address this at some point.


----------



## rhettf

aaronwt said:


> Ive always purchased 6500k cfls. I avoid the bluish or yellowish ones since that is not natural looking. I used to have to get them online but now they are available in local stores.


It's definitely much easier to get a specific cfl color tempeture these days. I'll still take my less since they are left bulbs and can produce any color


----------



## wco81

Got nothing to say about Xbox but I've had CFLs and now LEDs.

LEDs instantly go to the brightness and color temperature you want.

CFLs in cooler weather takes a couple of minutes to reach max brightness.

CFLs require special disposal.


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## slowbiscuit

Um ok. CFLs still work well if you don't mind the light they put out.


----------



## muzzymate

I think a mod should change the title of this thread to "Thoughts on Xbox One & Tivo and CFL vs LED" 

Has anyone tried the Xbox 360 Media Remote to see if it functions with the Xbox One? Or any non-Harmony programable remote that can control an Xbox? I'm curious to know if it works.


----------



## JosephB

muzzymate said:


> I think a mod should change the title of this thread to "Thoughts on Xbox One & Tivo and CFL vs LED"
> 
> Has anyone tried the Xbox 360 Media Remote to see if it functions with the Xbox One? Or any non-Harmony programable remote that can control an Xbox? I'm curious to know if it works.


I haven't tried an Xbox 360 remote, but I'll give it a shot today if I can find mine. I doubt it works, and honestly I hope it doesn't. Microsoft has to assume that a large number of Xbox One owners will still have a 360 sitting in their stack. Harmony does have a code set for the XBOne, I've already programmed my remote to operate it.


----------



## LSpera

Having problems with my Roamio Plus and Xbox One. It is taking some time to go between channels... seems like a handshake issue but I'm not smart enough to figure it out. Had no problems before the Xbox One. Any ideas?


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## Dan203

Set the Roamio to only output one resolution. (1080p) That will cause the TiVo to scale all channels internally and avoid the handshake issues.


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## LSpera

Dan203 said:


> Set the Roamio to only output one resolution. (1080p) That will cause the TiVo to scale all channels internally and avoid the handshake issues.


THANK YOU! This has been driving me insane.


----------



## aaronwt

So has anyone been able to set the XBOne to use remote codes 1 through 9 instead of remote code 0 which affects all TiVos?


----------



## Keen

After hooking up my Tivo HD through the X1, I noticed immediate degradation in the video quality. The image is darker, there's banding in any gradients, and there's possibly some black crush.


AARGH2K said:


> Anyone having an issue with fast forwarding or reversing and the screen freezes, and doesn't resume until you hit play? This is with a Series 3 Tivo. I've restarted the Tivo, and cycled the Xbox 1, and did the setup again, to no avail. Could this be a symptom to a bad HDMI cable? From reading posts, it seems to be a bit more particular than most.


I'm seeing issues here on my Tivo HD. Whenever I do a trickplay feature (skip back, 30 sec skip forward, fast forward, or rewind), the screen either freezes or goes black. I lose all Tivo audio as well. After I stop the trickplay and return to normal playback, it can take up to 10+ seconds for the video and audio to return. This makes it pretty useless to me. When this happens, just skipping back once isn't necessarily enough time for it to fix itself, so I skip back twice, and then I wonder why I would have this hooked up like this.

What video output option are people using? I originally was on Native, but then switched to 1080i after I started getting the a/v dropouts.


----------



## doydel

AARGH2K said:


> Since I wasn't using the XBOX One to control the Tivo, this is not a factor. It's not an issue of control, but of not being able to keep up with the Tivo when I fast forward, change channels or go to Tivo home and it blacking out or freezing what was on screen when I do something. I have now taken the tivo out of the pass-through and back into the receiver and it works fine. Hopefully a patch or something will address this at some point.


The IR adjustment will fix your issue. I wasnt using the xbox to control the tivo either when i was having the freezing issues. It was freezing when i would rewind or fast forward using the tivo remote through the xbox pass through.


----------



## doydel

Keen said:


> After hooking up my Tivo HD through the X1, I noticed immediate degradation in the video quality. The image is darker, there's banding in any gradients, and there's possibly some black crush.
> 
> I'm seeing issues here on my Tivo HD. Whenever I do a trickplay feature (skip back, 30 sec skip forward, fast forward, or rewind), the screen either freezes or goes black. I lose all Tivo audio as well. After I stop the trickplay and return to normal playback, it can take up to 10+ seconds for the video and audio to return. This makes it pretty useless to me. When this happens, just skipping back once isn't necessarily enough time for it to fix itself, so I skip back twice, and then I wonder why I would have this hooked up like this.
> 
> What video output option are people using? I originally was on Native, but then switched to 1080i after I started getting the a/v dropouts.


If you adjust the IR speed to fast it will fix the freezing and black screen issues when using the tivo remote through the xbox. At least it worked for me on my Tivo HD...


----------



## Keen

Why would adjusting the speed of the Xbox's IR commands do anything? It looks like it's just an HDMI issue...? I'm using my Harmony to control the Tivo, I have zero desire to control my TiVo via the Xbox.

Edit: Did some Googling.
http://forums.xbox.com/xbox_forums/xbox_support/xbox_one_support/f/4277/t/1629181.aspx

Turning off the beta surround sound setting fixed this, at the cost of 3 precious sound channels.


----------



## muzzymate

Keen said:


> Turning off the beta surround sound setting fixed this, at the cost of 3 precious sound channels.


Yuck. What an ugly solution! Now I'm not so excited for this anymore. I guess that's why they deemed this "beta".


----------



## aaronwt

muzzymate said:


> Yuck. What an ugly solution! Now I'm not so excited for this anymore. I guess that's why they deemed this "beta".


The beta setting works fine with my Roamio basic. Although my problem is that the remote code the XBOne uses is zero, so it will also control my Premiere and Roamio Pro in the same room. I need to be able to choose remote codes 1 through 9 so I can individually control my Roamio Basic.


----------



## mikeyts

I was having a problem with my Roamio basic that, after having been de-selected on my AVR for several hours, it would be "out of sync" with HDMI, not displaying video or playing sound. Toggling it into and out of standby would give me video, but I had to do a warm restart to get sound back. With its output run through my splitter, so that I could have it connected to the AVR and Xbox One at the same time, that doesn't seem to be happening. I'm not using the console for TV watching but I may have gotten some benefit for setting up for it .

EDIT: Should have knocked wood . No sooner do I post this that Roamio does this again, although this time I got sound back by just toggling standby without having to restart.


----------



## Grakthis

I haven't had any of the interface issues some people are describing ITT.

The only voice commands I use (w/r/t TV) are channel changing to a specific channel (I love that I just say ESPN and it goes to ESPN. Having to know channel numbers is absolutely the dumbest thing about the TiVo and it infuriates me that TiVo hasn't taken the lead in banishing this outdated paradigm of TV) and pause/resume.

I love being able to get up to use the bathroom, and on my way out of the room, say "TiVo Pause" or if I can't find the remote, I can pause while I look for it, or whatever. And then resuming on the way back in. I love that.

The rest of the features (one guide, other commands, TV control, etc) are not very good.


----------



## b_scott

guys, how is the channel guide overlay from the X1 working for you? I assume it doesn't interfere with the Tivo's own menus/guides?


----------



## JosephB

b_scott said:


> guys, how is the channel guide overlay from the X1 working for you? I assume it doesn't interfere with the Tivo's own menus/guides?


It works great. It doesn't interfere with TiVo if you don't want it to. If you want to 100% use the TiVo menus/interface, once you have the TV app running, you can completely ignore the rest of the Xbox One interface and just use your remote like normal.


----------



## b_scott

awesome. so you just put in your cable provider and location, and it sets it up so it knows the channels?


----------



## JosephB

b_scott said:


> awesome. so you just put in your cable provider and location, and it sets it up so it knows the channels?


Yup, exactly. And then you tell it what kind of cable box, TV, and AV receiver you have and it will setup the IR codes for those as well.


----------



## mikeyts

Grakthis said:


> Having to know channel numbers is absolutely the dumbest thing about the TiVo and it infuriates me that TiVo hasn't taken the lead in banishing this outdated paradigm of TV...


You don't _have_ to know channel numbers and I'm only aware of a couple. You can page through the guide until you find what you want, sorting and filtering it multiple ways, including by channel name, or search the guide for the name of the channel. It's certainly not as convenient as voice commands but there's really nothing TiVo could do short of voice commands to make it easier.


----------



## b_scott

muzzymate said:


> Yuck. What an ugly solution! Now I'm not so excited for this anymore. I guess that's why they deemed this "beta".


they'll fix it. You also can't get 5.1 out of the output of the optical jack either. it's coming.


----------



## b_scott

I have the Tivo split to my receiver and to the Xbox One with a powered simultaneous splitter. I have sound set to 5.1 uncompressed

Any time I change a channel I lose sound completely. I feel like there's some handshake issue going on.

edit: somehow turning the Tivo to PCM and back has fixed the issue I think.

However, i've noticed the OneGuide won't do a thing if you haven't already hit "Live TV" on your remote, so it's kind of pointless.

also, hitting "back" if you're watching a show to go to Tivo Central blacks the screen out for about 5-7 seconds.


----------



## b_scott

Anthos said:


> I'm not concerned about privacy, I'm concerned about energy consumption. I'm also waiting to see that leaving it on doesn't damage the unit itself, despite reports of being designed to "stay on for 10 years." When I start reading more detailed data on the effects of leaving it on I'll reconsider my opinion.
> 
> As for the lag, it is what it is. I don't expect everyone to have the same issues but I know of others having similar problems. Like I said, I expect a patch to address these issues. I'm very glad your experience has been a good one, other than my concerns it has been for me as well.


my PC is on 24/7. So is my server. They're fine, and the X1 will be as well. Power consumption is minimal in the grand scheme of things. I never understood techies depriving themselves of convenience to save a few watts.

*Side Note:*

Does anyone here use a Harmony One remote? I can't figure out how to switch to Xbox One's activity yet use the Tivo's remote buttons. Since the Tivo isn't used in the activity and is on another input (I have it split), I don't think it will work. I have to fake switch to "Watch Tivo" on my remote and cover the IR transmitter so it doesn't change inputs.


----------



## mikeyts

b_scott said:


> I never understood techies depriving themselves of convenience to save a few watts.


I'm one such techie. I'll bet the Xbox One draws 70 watts or more while viewing TV through it, increasing the power used watching TiVo (video devices) by a factor of 6. I found it to be an awkward experience at best, offering no real convenience improvement at all over watching my TiVo controlled by IR remote. YMMV.



> Does anyone here use a Harmony One remote? I can't figure out how to switch to Xbox One's activity yet use the Tivo's remote buttons.


I use a Harmony One and was doing the same thing you were when I tried TV through Xbox One, but it strikes me that I could have defined a "Watch Xbox One TV" activity using the Xbox One and TiVo with the relevant buttons mapped to TiVo commands.


----------



## Keen

Played a bunch of Peggle 2 last night while watching TV. I'm pretty sold on the benefits of running the Tivo through the X1. Now they just need to improve the TV image quality and get surround sound working, and I'll be a happy camper.


b_scott said:


> Does anyone here use a Harmony One remote? I can't figure out how to switch to Xbox One's activity yet use the Tivo's remote buttons. Since the Tivo isn't used in the activity and is on another input (I have it split), I don't think it will work. I have to fake switch to "Watch Tivo" on my remote and cover the IR transmitter so it doesn't change inputs.


I made 2 Activities. One for Watch TV where all the buttons on the remote control the Tivo. Another for Play X1, where all the buttons on the remote control the X1.


----------



## aaronwt

Keen said:


> Played a bunch of Peggle 2 last night while watching TV. I'm pretty sold on the benefits of running the Tivo through the X1. Now they just need to improve the TV image quality and get surround sound working, and I'll be a happy camper.
> 
> I made 2 Activities. One for Watch TV where all the buttons on the remote control the Tivo. Another for Play X1, where all the buttons on the remote control the X1.


Surround sound is working with my Roamio Basic going into my XBOne. The problem is the audio output is not dynamic on the XBOne so it does not match the number of input channels like it should. SO I have mine on 7.1 PCM output. SO whether the content is 2.0 or 5.1 or anything in between, the XBOne will output in 7.1 wrapper with dead channels for anything beyond the number of source audio channels. The PS3 and 360 had this issue too. Over the years it was corrected with most of the apps but it was never corrected for everything. I hope MS does a better job with the XBOne.


----------



## Keen

aaronwt said:


> Surround sound is working with my Roamio Basic going into my XBOne.


I don't have a Roamio, so none of this applies to me. Enabling the feature breaks all trickplay features really badly on my Tivo HD, so it must be disabled for now.


----------



## b_scott

mikeyts said:


> I use a Harmony One and was doing the same thing you were when I tried TV through Xbox One, but it strikes me that I could have defined a "Watch Xbox One TV" activity using the Xbox One and TiVo with the relevant buttons mapped to TiVo commands.


thanks, I was thinking the same thing. Might do that.


----------



## Grakthis

b_scott said:


> awesome. so you just put in your cable provider and location, and it sets it up so it knows the channels?


Yes, but the Xbox One guide is awful. It's unusable. I mean, I guess if you had a regular cable box, maybe it's better than that? But compared to the TiVo guide, it's just bad.


----------



## Grakthis

mikeyts said:


> You don't _have_ to know channel numbers and I'm only aware of a couple. You can page through the guide until you find what you want, sorting and filtering it multiple ways, including by channel name, or search the guide for the name of the channel. It's certainly not as convenient as voice commands but there's really nothing TiVo could do short of voice commands to make it easier.


If you're paging through the guide, you're functionally paging through channel numbers, in order by channel. That's no different than knowing the channel numbers, except you're too lazy to memorize them, so you scan to find them.

TiVo could use the slide remote to allow me to type the channel name and filter by what I've typed. Either channel name or show name. Without having to hit 'search' and leave what I am doing. It should work right within the guide, the same way universal search on an android device works.

They could also allow me to build a custom guide, which includes only specific channels I care about, and have that guide replace the basic guide. Yes, favorites SORT of does this, but it's not the same at all, because favorites is its own thing and doesn't replace the guide.

They could know based on the channel information what category channels fall in to, and allow me to choose "sports", "local", "movies" as categories and show only those categories. They could do this by having a simple set of folders at the top of the guide that let's me quickly toggle the view.

TiVo could also filter by what is currently showing, in the same way as above w/r/t channel information. So instead of ESPN always being "sports" it would only be "sports" when a game is actually on, for example.

There's a million things TiVo could do to break the "channel number" paradigm for guide organization.

Let me put it this way... does anyone here memorize more than a small handful of phone numbers anymore? Do any of you store phone numbers in your phone ordered by number? Do any of you know the IP Address of google.com by heart? No. Of course you don't. Because memorizing numbers is stupid and awful when what we really care about is what is the thing those numbers represent.

The fact that I have to flip through a guide ordered by NUMBER instead of one ordered by channel name, category, HD/Non-HD or whatever other organizational method makes sense to me is a joke. It's easily the biggest failing of TiVo since it falls RIGHT INTO TiVo's core functionality (as a cable box). Forget all of the streaming and digital content... TiVo is a cable box first, and they could differentiate themselves from other cable boxes by doing the guide RIGHT.


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## Grakthis

Keen said:


> Played a bunch of Peggle 2 last night while watching TV. I'm pretty sold on the benefits of running the Tivo through the X1. Now they just need to improve the TV image quality and get surround sound working, and I'll be a happy camper.


What image quality issues have you noticed? Once I tell it to stop listening, the image quality looks the same to me. But I also haven't gotten up close and really studied it.

I'm also sold on the benefits of running the TiVo through the Xbox One, though, this morning I had my first "dammit" moment, when my Tivo had to install an update before I could watch TV. That was frustrating, but ultimately not a huge deal. I would say it probably took about 30 seconds?


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## CrispyCritter

Grakthis said:


> They could know based on the channel information what category channels fall in to, and allow me to choose "sports", "local", "movies" as categories and show only those categories. They could do this by having a simple set of folders at the top of the guide that let's me quickly toggle the view.
> 
> There's a million things TiVo could do to break the "channel number" paradigm for guide organization.


It sounds like you haven't played around much with the new 'C' functionality within the guide (hit the C button after getting into the TiVo guide). It does a lot of what you want, including what you want above, though based on individual shows rather than channel categories.


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## Grakthis

CrispyCritter said:


> It sounds like you haven't played around much with the new 'C' functionality within the guide (hit the C button after getting into the TiVo guide). It does a lot of what you want, including what you want above, though based on individual shows rather than channel categories.


???

No, I am not even aware of a "C" button feature. Is this on my Premiere?

I'll try it out, but is there a thread where people discuss this and what it does?

I mean, the #1 primary feature I want is the slide remote search. It's such a basic and obvious feature that it continuously blows my mind that I cannot slide out the pad, type "CBSHD" and hit enter and have it jump to CBSHD. Yet, my Xbox One lets me say "Watch CBS" and it goes right to it.

It even smartly tunes the HD version without requiring me to say HD!


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## b_scott

Grakthis said:


> What image quality issues have you noticed? Once I tell it to stop listening, the image quality looks the same to me. But I also haven't gotten up close and really studied it.
> 
> I'm also sold on the benefits of running the TiVo through the Xbox One, though, this morning I had my first "dammit" moment, when my Tivo had to install an update before I could watch TV. That was frustrating, but ultimately not a huge deal. I would say it probably took about 30 seconds?


my problem originally was that I had the color space set to PC full level - once I changed my X1 to TV normal whites, everything looked fine. Otherwise it's too dark.

I think it's really convenient to say "Xbox Watch TBS" without picking up the remote, or remembering what channel that is - or searching in a guide. The problem is, we don't watch much Live TV, and you can't control the Tivo other than when it's in Live TV mode. You can pause/play/etc if a recording it already playing, but you can't get to it without the remote.

I don't know what "C" function is being talked about.


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## CrispyCritter

Grakthis said:


> ???
> 
> No, I am not even aware of a "C" button feature. Is this on my Premiere?
> 
> I'll try it out, but is there a thread where people discuss this and what it does?
> 
> I mean, the #1 primary feature I want is the slide remote search. It's such a basic and obvious feature that it continuously blows my mind that I cannot slide out the pad, type "CBSHD" and hit enter and have it jump to CBSHD. Yet, my Xbox One lets me say "Watch CBS" and it goes right to it.
> 
> It even smartly tunes the HD version without requiring me to say HD!


Yes, it's on the Premiere.

I haven't seen any thread talking about it, which is a shame. I think it's a nice feature that if it were just a bit more flexible would take the place of much Wishlist functionality for me.

I agree the search for channel is clumsy now. You can hit "Guide" then "Enter", and then use the slide remote pad for "CBS", but after that you have to go select the right search result from both shows and channels. I'd rather be placed in a restricted search environment and just be searching for channel name/affiliation, as you suggest.


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## Fofer

b_scott said:


> The problem is, we don't watch much Live TV, and you can't control the Tivo other than when it's in Live TV mode.


That doesn't make much sense to me (at least from a technical perspective) since the IR commands sent to play/pause/instant replay/skip/FF/RW are the same when watching recorded programs as they are when watching Live TV.

Indeed, some folks in other threads are reporting success being able to (voice) control the TiVo with those commands in _both_ circumstances.

Interestingly enough, others had been reporting problems controlling the TiVo when it was playing back live TV, only being able to get it to work with recorded programs (basically the reverse of what you reported) and then responses came in like this one that report it working on both:



Donbadabon said:


> "Under Settings / TV and One Guide" I just entered 'Tivo' as my cable box.
> 
> You can tell it is working because when you are watching TV and just say 'Xbox', when the green text normally appears on your screen prompting you with the words you can say, at the bottom will also be prompts for FF, REW, Pause, Skip, etc.
> 
> *So I can just say 'Xbox Pause' when watching something (even when it isn't a recorded show),and then 'Xbox Play' to start it up again.
> *
> 
> Edit to add: maybe the capitalization is important. I have it as 'Tivo', with a capital T, under the "Cable or Satellite Box Brand".


(emphasis mine)

So perhaps it works with some TiVo models and not others?


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## Grakthis

b_scott said:


> my problem originally was that I had the color space set to PC full level - once I changed my X1 to TV normal whites, everything looked fine. Otherwise it's too dark.


I haven't had that problem. It doesn't look any darker than normal, to me, except when the guide or voice command is up.



> I think it's really convenient to say "Xbox Watch TBS" without picking up the remote, or remembering what channel that is - or searching in a guide. The problem is, we don't watch much Live TV, and you can't control the Tivo other than when it's in Live TV mode. You can pause/play/etc if a recording it already playing, but you can't get to it without the remote.


Right. 99% of the time, it is me saying "Watch ESPN2" at like 6:30 AM when I sit down to eat my cereal and watch Mike & Mike. Sometimes I use it on Sundays (NFL) and Saturdays (College Football) too. But it's basically always sports. Otherwise, I am channel surfing (using the TiVo guide) or watching something recorded, and the xbox plays no role there.

We do use the "pause" and "play" commands a lot. When watching something recorded, its nice to be able to just say "pause" without having to find the remote. I also use it a lot when my daughter is watching her shows and isn't listening to me when I talk to her. It's nice to just say "Xbox Pause" rather than have to go find the remote. And then when it's paused, she looks at me, and listens.


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## Grakthis

Fofer said:


> That doesn't make much sense to me (at least from a technical perspective) since the IR commands sent to play/pause/instant replay/skip/FF/RW are the same when watching recorded programs as they are when watching Live TV.
> 
> Indeed, some folks in other threads are reporting success being able to (voice) control the TiVo with those commands in _both_ circumstances.
> 
> Interestingly enough, others had been reporting problems controlling the TiVo when it was playing back live TV, only being able to get it to work with recorded programs (basically the reverse of what you reported) and then responses came in like this one that report it working on both:
> 
> (emphasis mine)
> 
> So perhaps it works with some TiVo models and not others?


It's an IR blaster. It doesn't make any sense for it to work with some and not others, unless the IR codes were different across models.

edit: in other words "yes, I agree, that makes no sense."


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## b_scott

Fofer said:


> That doesn't make much sense to me (at least from a technical perspective) since the IR commands sent to play/pause/instant replay/skip/FF/RW are the same when watching recorded programs as they are when watching Live TV.


did you read the the sentence? It works when controlling recordings, but you can't get TO them. I.E. the Tivo Central show listing.


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## b_scott

Grakthis said:


> I haven't had that problem. It doesn't look any darker than normal, to me, except when the guide or voice command is up.


Do you have your TV already set in PC (full) white like I do? Many TVs don't allow that, but my Pioneer does - so it would make it that much darker with an extra setting on it.


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## Fofer

b_scott said:


> did you read the the sentence? It works when controlling recordings, but you can't get TO them. I.E. the Tivo Central show listing.


I read it. Your post wasn't clear. You wrote "and you can't control the Tivo other than when it's in Live TV mode." Except you *can* control the TiVo when it's in playback of recorded show mode -- you can control it with the same play/pause/skip commands.

Your point about not being able to navigate TO and within "TiVo Central," of course, stands.

The confusion stems from the fact that some folks have reported an inability to use voice commands (like "pause") when they're in Live TV mode. They're getting errors on screen that say "_Can't 'Pause' From Here._" I am not sure what's wrong with their setup, and why such a distinction should matter, but as designed, the user should have such basic transport control regardless of what they've chosen to watch.

The takeaway from all of this, to me, is that once it's set up properly (identifying the proper DVR/cablebox name, etc.) Kinekt on Xbox One is able to respond to voice commands for pausing/playing/FF/RW TiVo, whether what you're watching is live or not. But it's only just those basic commands (and channel changing.) So any command beyond that, like navigation to TiVo Central, to choose/playback recorded shows (or set up new recordings) would still need the TiVo (or other universal) remote.


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## b_scott

agreed. it'd be nice to add extra functions/buttons available to speak, but in the end it's probably easier just to use a remote unless all you want to do is navigate live TV

to me the benefits are snapping TV shows, and getting notifications from Xbox friends while watching my Tivo.


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## mikeyts

Fofer said:


> The confusion stems from the fact that some folks have reported an inability to use voice commands (like "pause") when they're in Live TV mode. They're getting errors on screen that say "_Can't 'Pause' From Here._" I am not sure what's wrong with their setup, and why such a distinction should matter, but as designed, the user should have such basic transport control regardless of what they've chosen to watch.


I don't know how much credence I'd give those reports. The console can have no awareness that you're watching a recording since you can't use it to start doing that. Perhaps they tried to pause while OneGuide was up. I played with it briefly before deciding that I didn't care to use it and it never refused to pause live TV.


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## Fofer

mikeyts said:


> I don't know how much credence I'd give those reports. The console can have no awareness that you're watching a recording since you can't use it to start doing that. Perhaps they tried to pause while OneGuide was up. I played with it briefly before deciding that I didn't care to use it and it never refused to pause live TV.


I agree, just passing along what I've read, from folks I consider intelligent. The reports are in the Xbox One thread here:



jkeegan said:


> By the way, I'm all-in on having my xbox on all the time now. It's completely silent, so that's not a problem. When I say "Xbox, watch TV" the TV comes up full screen and I forget that I'm using the xbox at all. 30 minutes into a show sometimes I say "Xbox" just to see it come up, then "stop listening" to go back to my show without that icon in the upper right corner.
> 
> At any point I can say "xbox, go to netflix".. I will never use TiVo's netflix option again (I have a Series 3).
> 
> So someone earlier said that they were actually able to have "Xbox, pause" cause their TiVo to pause?? Did you have to do something to get that to work? I asked my wife to try it while I was at work today, and she said that it said:
> 
> CAN'T "PAUSE" FROM HERE
> 
> That would have been sweet.. If it really is working for you, how'd you get it to work? I didn't get to tell it what cable box or satellite dish I had because I don't - I just have my Series 3 HD TiVo.. (I even tried entering "tivo" for the brand and it didn't know what I was talking about).





jkeegan said:


> How'd you do that? Did you set the TiVo up somehow in some menu? I had my wife try this on our Series 3 and it didn't work.. it said:
> 
> CAN'T "PAUSE" FROM HERE
> 
> ?


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## mikeyts

I just tried it again and it pauses my Roamio on command while watching live TV. It can rewind and fast forward and skip back and forward in the trick play buffer on command. It's annoyingly "laggy", one of several reasons why I don't use it.

Perhaps there's something wrong with its Series3 device definition.


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## b_scott

usually Can't Pause From Here means you have something snapped that has focus, or your TV input is snapped without focus. To gain focus, say Xbox Switch, or double tap the Xbox glowing button on your controller


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## Grakthis

b_scott said:


> Do you have your TV already set in PC (full) white like I do? Many TVs don't allow that, but my Pioneer does - so it would make it that much darker with an extra setting on it.


My TV has a handful of settings, I don't remember which one I have it set on. It allows me to use different settings for each input, and I had input 1 tuned for my TiVo and input 2 tuned for my Xbox 360. Of course, my Xbox One is now on input 1, but I didn't make any changes to it when I did that. I guess I can play with it.

I'm not a huge sound guy, but video wise, I think i would have noticed a difference. I mean, we're talking about a big TV here. 55''.


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## Grakthis

b_scott said:


> double tap the Xbox glowing button on your controller


Huh. I didn't know that one. I've been using the switch command.


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## mikeyts

After using voice commands with the Xbox One I want to control everything that way. I turn it off and want to say, "AVR, go to PC" or "AVR, go to TiVo". One of these days... . There are already some TVs out there with cameras for gestural controls and microphones in their remotes for voice commands.


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## csgraber

I've got the xbox one on order. I love the idea of the passthrough (pretty cool) but truth is - I never watch live television. 

I kind of think that for anything TV related, I would want to still use the TIVO Gui within the xbox passthrough. 

Looking at my logitech remote (its the new hub, but without the ultimate) . . .you can't navigate both a tivo gui and the xbox gui at the same time. 

Maybe hit "watch tv" and it sends the stuff to xbox to turn on go to tivo, but then turns control over to the TIVO?

Anyone deal with the same situation?


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## Aero 1

Finally. The update for next week will add Dolby bitstreaming.

http://www.slashgear.com/xbox-one-march-update-will-add-support-for-dolby-digital-28318911/


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## b_scott

Update came out on 3/1


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## mikeyts

It came out today, 3/4. If you registered for the preview (I did) you got it early.


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## b_scott

^ yup sorry, I was in the beta.


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## jtmarshiii

That's what I do. I have a activity button set to 'short press' turns on my XBOX 1 and a 'long press' switches control of the TiVo.


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## Fofer

What remote do you use that has short and long presses? That's cool.


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