# Questions about the new 2010 Tivo boxes...



## sublimnl (May 23, 2004)

I have been struggling with Comcast just so that I can have my TivoHD and have just about had enough of it all. Its been a year and they still can't get all of my channels working at the same time. Pathetic.

As such, I am considering switching back to DTV (used to have a hacked directivo around 04/05), but I cannot give up some of the features that I currently have with my TiVoHD - namely, multiroom viewing, Audio/Video streaming from my PC to the TiVo, and Amazon/Netflix VOD. I know the Amazon/Netflix support is a real longshot given that DTV has their own PPV service, so maybe this one I can live without, though the wife wouldn't like it.

So, some questions...

1. Will the new TiVo be a brand new hardware platform, or just software loaded on an existing DTV box? 

2. If it is software then would I be able to buy an HR21 today and upgrade to the TiVo environment later on?

3. I see that DTV has the MediaShare and MRV features now on their own receivers. Are we expecting that they will allow TiVo to do the same with their OS? 

4. The HR21 has DLNA support, which is a welcome change from having to use TiVo Desktop Plus, which is dog slow at transcoding video on my home network (PlayOn works great when transcoding the same content from the same machine for streaming HD content to my PS3, so the Tivo desktop software has to take the blame here). Do we know if the Tivo box will also support DLNA, or will we be forced to use their proprietary software?

5. Is there anything concrete out there as far as features we can expect?


Thanks in advance for help on these questions! I'm really hoping to get away from Comcast with the quickness, so I'm hoping for good news!


----------



## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

There hasn't been any solid news about them yet, but there is a lot of speculation.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

My guess is that we won't find out anything specific until CES in January. At least I hope we will by then. 

There has indeed been a lot of speculation, but that's all it is.

I'll note that MRV is not yet a released feature on the DirecTV+ boxes.


----------



## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

sublimnl said:


> I know the Amazon/Netflix support is a real longshot given that DTV has their own PPV service, so maybe this one I can live without, though the wife wouldn't like it.


You can solve this problem with a $100 Roku box - in fact, the Netflix streaming is better on the Roku than on the TiVo. My TiVo has crashed several times hard enough to require a power plug pull following Netflix viewing but my Roku has never had issues. The Roku Digital Video Player handles both Amazon and Netflix (and more).

http://www.roku.com/what-to-watch


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

sublimnl said:


> but I cannot give up some of the features that I currently have with my TiVoHD - namely, multiroom viewing, Audio/Video streaming from my PC to the TiVo, and Amazon/Netflix VOD. I know the Amazon/Netflix support is a real longshot given that DTV has their own PPV service, so maybe this one I can live without, though the wife wouldn't like it.


Just an FYI that all of these are available on the HR2x DirecTV platform already (MRV is in testing for release by year's end). So long as this new Tivo can interoperate with the HR2x platform then it's a good bet they will be available on the Tivo as well. But there are Zero details on what this Tivo box is or it's features, still.

I would agree with the Roku box if Netflix is a top priority, it is better then anything DLNA or Tivo can provide.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

stevel said:


> My guess is that we won't find out anything specific until CES in January. At least I hope we will by then.
> 
> There has indeed been a lot of speculation, but that's all it is.
> 
> I'll note that MRV is not yet a released feature on the DirecTV+ boxes.


Going to be interesting if they even hit CES with a demo box.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

If they don't, something is SERIOUSLY wrong.


----------



## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

ewilts said:


> You can solve this problem with a $100 Roku box - in fact, the Netflix streaming is better on the Roku than on the TiVo. My TiVo has crashed several times hard enough to require a power plug pull following Netflix viewing but my Roku has never had issues. The Roku Digital Video Player handles both Amazon and Netflix (and more).
> 
> http://www.roku.com/what-to-watch


I totally agree. I've had my Roku box since it came out and it has been flawless.

It already has Netflix and Amazon VOD and will be adding a number of new "channels" soon.


----------



## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

djwilso said:


> I totally agree. I've had my Roku box since it came out and it has been flawless.
> 
> It already has Netflix and Amazon VOD and will be adding a number of new "channels" soon.


And the Roku XR seems to be imminent, if the rumors are true. 
http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/10/19/roku-xr-adds-802-11n-usb-port-and-a-longing-for-something-more/. They've got pictures of the new box, but no pictures of what new software, if any, it's got.


----------



## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

stevel said:


> If they don't, something is SERIOUSLY wrong.


I agree. I'm really excited to see what TiVo has been working on developing.

I'd love to see 4 HD tuners, expanded buffer, SDV support, VOD/In Demand support, better clipping protection when dealing with multiple simultaneous recordings from the same channel, ability to *stream* content to any TiVo or computer in the house to avoid CCI / copy-protection limitations.


----------



## BGTivo (Jan 23, 2005)

I'm in a similar situation. My Directivo died a few days ago. I am considering getting one of Directv HD DVR boxes but want to move to the Directv Tivo box when it is released at some point. I have not gotten any new equipment from Directv for many years. What is their policy on new equipment? Will I be able to trade-in the Directv HD dvr for a new Tivo unit when it is released? Anyone willing to speculate?

They are offering me a new dish, directv Hd dvr and HD receiver without any additional cost but I don't want to use up my ability to get the Tivo unit when it is released.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

There is no "policy", and DirecTV doesn't historically do trade-ins. They may offer discounted deals on new boxes. It is my belief that the new DTiVo will be a "premium" offering which will either not be available with the typical deals or will require a surcharge.


----------



## GBTheater (May 4, 2009)

BGTivo said:


> I'm in a similar situation. My Directivo died a few days ago. I am considering getting one of Directv HD DVR boxes but want to move to the Directv Tivo box when it is released at some point. I have not gotten any new equipment from Directv for many years. What is their policy on new equipment? Will I be able to trade-in the Directv HD dvr for a new Tivo unit when it is released? Anyone willing to speculate?
> 
> They are offering me a new dish, directv Hd dvr and HD receiver without any additional cost but I don't want to use up my ability to get the Tivo unit when it is released.


I came back to DirecTV after they announced the pending release of the DirecTivo. I specifically asked and had them note on my account that I was switching back because of the new agreement with Tivo and any DirecTV HD DVR that I was "Leasing" at the time of the release of the DirecTivo could be traded in for a DirecTivo unit at no charge.

Now, whether or not they'll actually honor that when they are released is another story, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Since 80% of our viewing is on the local HD's anyway, I currently have 2 HR-21's and three Series 3 Tivo's all upgraded to 1TB drives. If DirecTV wants to charge me a premium of $5 a month for Tivo service, I'll gladly pay it with a smile on my face. Nothing compares to a Tivo, and yuo all know it!


----------



## VonBrick (Jul 31, 2007)

GBTheater said:


> Since 80% of our viewing is on the local HD's anyway, I currently have 2 HR-21's and three Series 3 Tivo's all upgraded to 1TB drives. If DirecTV wants to charge me a premium of $5 a month for Tivo service, I'll gladly pay it with a smile on my face. Nothing compares to a Tivo, and yuo all know it!


We used to have TiVo's at all three of the TV's in our house. Ever since installing Windows Media Center, extenders and an XBOX 360 at the TV's in the house, our usage has slowly migrated to mostly MC. The kids love the music/photo/movie features much better on MC and we've upgraded to over 5 TB of television storage at about 1 third of the cost of doing the same on TiVo. The sad part of _THAT_ is that we've actually started using the Hulu plug-in more than all of that TV we've recorded.

At this point, I think TiVo has waited too long to innovate (if they were in a position to continue innovating in this space). I truly believe now that the habits and usage patterns of the audience have grown past what TiVo can offer now or in the future.

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

What do you mean? TiVo is in a perfect position to be a competitor to Media Center. TiVo can basically do anything they want in the future since it's not tied to a particular content provider.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

GBTheater said:


> ...Nothing compares to a Tivo, and yuo all know it!


I'm afraid that is no longer the case. You seem to be speaking from the point of view of someone unfamiliar with anything other than Tivo.

As someone who has owned DVRs from 7 or 8 different manufacturers over the last decade I am not unfamiliar with what it was to be a loyal Tivo fanatic and to realize how superior it was (past tense) to everything else out there, but things have changed dramatically in the last couple of years. Many of us who have lived with both Tivo and the HD DVR+ platform have grown to accept that the DVR+ is a very serious contender. Also, CNet claims the DISH DVRS are superior to all others (something I have a bit of trouble agreeing with, given my experience with them). But you only have to search this very thread to find a very long and significant list of clever and innovative features of the HD DVR+ platform that Tivo has never even dreamed about.

I have been running two HR20's alongside two HR10-250's for some time now, and the HR20's are much more reliable, have significantly more storage capacity expansion capability, and are comparitively feature-laden. There is only a slight ergonomic superiority owned by Tivo and even that is quite debatable.

As a matter of fact, there really are only four things about my HR10-250's that I prefer over the HR20's:

1) Slo-mo is implemented slightly better on the HR10

2) Playlist sorting is done slightly better

3) Some HR2x features are still a bit half-baked and need some work (though most HR2x features are fully realized and I wonder how I got along without them)

4) FFWDx1 is smooth and not jerky

(Of course #4 is not so much a flaw of the HR2x as it is a necessity of MPEG-4 delivery, so the HR2x gets a pass here; I can predict with confidence that the new MPEG-4 Tivo will have the same issue)

But other than that, my newer HR20's simply run rings around my old venerable HR10's (not to mention that they get some 140 HD channels as compared to 7 on the HR10). The addition of adjacent recording overlap (even on the same tuner) alone makes the HR20's a winner in my book. The king is dead; long live the king.

I think it will be a very steep order for Tivo to produce a DVR for DTV that can live up to "premium" status, as DTV has not been sitting still, and Tivo has their work cut out for them.


----------



## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> I have been running two HR20's alongside two HR10-250's for some time now, and the HR20's are much more reliable, have significantly more storage capacity expansion capability, and are comparitively feature-laden. There is only a slight ergonomic superiority owned by Tivo and even that is quite debatable.


You are comparing new equipment with a Tivo DVR that is five years old. Hardly a fair comparison at all. Compare your HR20 to a TivoHD and see where you are.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

bengalfreak said:


> You are comparing new equipment with a Tivo DVR that is five years old. Hardly a fair comparison at all. Compare your HR20 to a TivoHD and see where you are.


Why compare a driectv reciever to something that cannot work on the system? The 3rd party box is useless unless it works at the base level.

I doubt you will see a lot of the "features" that are available on the 3rd party box, especially anything that duplicates functionality that Direct already supplies with their service


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bengalfreak said:


> You are comparing new equipment with a Tivo DVR that is five years old. Hardly a fair comparison at all. Compare your HR20 to a TivoHD and see where you are.


Not so.

A DVR platform is as old as its latest software, not measured by its build date, which makes them almost virtual twin siblings. Besides, I _mentioned_ that I _had_ the HR10, but I am _comparing_ all Tivo. I have asked repeatedly for folks to post what comparative features the Tivo HD has to the HR2x platform, and no has yet been able to confirm that it has _any_ of the newer features of the HR2x, or even that it has any features that the HR10 does not have, other than a couple that are relatively insignificant. Reliability may be better, but according to some reports, maybe not. Capacity expansion seems to be about the same. Until someone can confirm that it has something significant other than what the HR10 has, how is my report unfair?

Folks already pay a premium price for the Tivo HD, both out of the box and monthly, compared to what DTV subs pay for a HR2x (I got both of mine for free with no contract extension). If Tivo expects a MPEG-4 IRD/DVR comparable to the Tivo HD to enjoy premium status, I think they might be about as deluded as the NBC execs who thought Jay Leno at 10 was a good idea.

So let's see...where are we?


----------



## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> Some HR2x features are still a bit half-baked and need some work (most HR2x features are fully realized and I wonder how I got along without them)


Just curious what those "fully realized" features are. Because I've only ever found half-baked ones on the HR20s. I've given up on the HR2x boxes because there were just too many annoyances for me (and especially for my wife) to overcome. Those annoyances came down to basic DVR functions like the horrible playlist sorting, and the even more horrible search functions. And don't get me started on the pathetic "MediaShare" that can't even FFWD or REW.



TyroneShoes said:


> the HR20's are much more reliable


This is the exact opposite of my experience.



TyroneShoes said:


> have significantly more storage capacity expansion capability


"Significantly more"??? I guess you must be talking about eSata, but that's pretty pathetic. If you can't take a couple of screws out of the box and plug the drive into a different cable, then I guess eSata is a revelation.



TyroneShoes said:


> and are comparitively feature-laden.


That completely depends on what features you want to compare. Suggestions? 8 rows of channels in the guide? Dual live buffers that are always active? How about search results that show channels you actually receive?



TyroneShoes said:


> But other than that, my newer HR20's simply run rings around my old venerable HR10's


While I have no doubt that is true in your case, this statement almost made me cough up my muffin. My HR10's are many, many times more responsive and faster at every function than the pathetic HR20-100 and even more pathetic HR21-100 that they replaced.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

whitepelican said:


> "Significantly more"??? I guess you must be talking about eSata, but that's pretty pathetic. If you can't take a couple of screws out of the box and plug the drive into a different cable, then I guess eSata is a revelation.


99.9% of people can't do this. Thus eSata is a great solution (other then it replaces the internal and isn't additive). If you so desire you can very easily pop open a DirecTV DVR and replace the internal drive. Literally just replace it and boot it up and the DVR will format and get it setup automatically. This does violate your lease agreement but if you own it or don't care about the lease agreement then rock on.

Besides, doesn't the Tivo HD expansion also use eSata or USB in addition to the option to replace the internal? Sounds about the same to me.


----------



## cindyanded (Sep 23, 2002)

BGTivo said:


> I'm in a similar situation. My Directivo died a few days ago. I am considering getting one of Directv HD DVR boxes but want to move to the Directv Tivo box when it is released at some point. I have not gotten any new equipment from Directv for many years. What is their policy on new equipment? Will I be able to trade-in the Directv HD dvr for a new Tivo unit when it is released? Anyone willing to speculate?
> 
> They are offering me a new dish, directv Hd dvr and HD receiver without any additional cost but I don't want to use up my ability to get the Tivo unit when it is released.


Two weeks ago I called to cancel my account. I told them the reason was because I just got an HDTV and they don't offer a high def TiVo. We've had DirecTv's and TiVo's for about 8 years now and didn't want to get rid of our TiVo's. The Service rep said that the Tivo's were do out by the end of the year but when I pressed him, he said first quarter of next year. I said that wasn't good enough so he offered to give us their HD DVR until the HD Tivo's came out and they would swap them out. He said he marked the account to make it happen.

I told him I'd think on it and then called back two days later and asked the person to read me what was marked on the account. True enough, they noted that they'd send me an HD TiVo when them came out and give me the HD DVR in the mean time. All at no cost to me.

So, I guess time will tell if they follow through but it seems they will. So now I'm enjoying their DVR which isn't that bad and I can always upgrade to the TiVo later.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

cindyanded said:


> Two weeks ago I called to cancel my account. I told them the reason was because I just got an HDTV and they don't offer a high def TiVo. We've had DirecTv's and TiVo's for about 8 years now and didn't want to get rid of our TiVo's. The Service rep said that the Tivo's were do out by the end of the year but when I pressed him, he said first quarter of next year. I said that wasn't good enough so he offered to give us their HD DVR until the HD Tivo's came out and they would swap them out. He said he marked the account to make it happen.
> 
> I told him I'd think on it and then called back two days later and asked the person to read me what was marked on the account. True enough, they noted that they'd send me an HD TiVo when them came out and give me the HD DVR in the mean time. All at no cost to me.
> 
> So, I guess time will tell if they follow through but it seems they will. So now I'm enjoying their DVR which isn't that bad and I can always upgrade to the TiVo later.


Would not hold my breath for the "end of the year (all though you don't mention if they did state a year, moght be end of 2010 that they where referencing)" they have already said sometime in 2010 - and if they don;t show anything at CES, figure 2011 or so


----------



## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

I have nothing bad to say about the HD DVR+ platform, but I am SHOCKED you would compare a HR10 to a HR20/21 and consider that to be a fair comparison. HR10s are running what 6.xx version of Tivo SW, compared to what 11.xx on Series 3 platforms? That is an incredibly old baseline!!!

When Tivo releases a new version for DirectTV, I'm sure they will base it on a Series 3 or 4 platform, and roll up whatever features DirectTV allows them to. 

Features not present in a HR10 but available in current Tivos includes (but is not limited to) support for MRV (transfer between Tivos), TivoToGo (download video to PCs), YouTube playback, Amazon VOD, NetFlix support, Blockbuster Support, The new HD Tivo Search/Swivel Search like functionality, Ability to run HME apps including order Pizza, Weather, Yahoo, etc, etc, Support for Web Videos, ability to schedule remotely via tivo.com, ability to see your to-do/now playing lists remotely (I think), and finally hardware abilities like the ability to use external storage via eSata and wireless adaptors via usb. There are many other improvements from Version 6 to Version 11.x that I am sure I have missed on UI, etc, etc.

-Shaown


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

One can remote schedule on an HR10 through directv.com.


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

shaown said:


> Features not present in a HR10 but available in current Tivos includes (but is not limited to)... Ability to run HME apps including order Pizza .....
> -Shaown


That is my favorite. How can competitors call their machine a DVR and not offer this important DVR functionality. You also missed the pause ads. Great feature for people who want to have the best that DVRs have to offer.


----------



## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

shaown said:


> Features not present in a HR10 but available in current Tivos includes (but is not limited to) support for MRV (transfer between Tivos), TivoToGo (download video to PCs), YouTube playback, Amazon VOD, NetFlix support, Blockbuster Support, The new HD Tivo Search/Swivel Search like functionality, Ability to run HME apps including order Pizza, Weather, Yahoo, etc, etc, Support for Web Videos, ability to schedule remotely via tivo.com, ability to see your to-do/now playing lists remotely (I think), and finally hardware abilities like the ability to use external storage via eSata and wireless adaptors via usb. There are many other improvements from Version 6 to Version 11.x that I am sure I have missed on UI, etc, etc.
> 
> -Shaown


No killer apps there for me. I have no desire to order Pizza via TiVo, I doubt D will let netflix in or Blockbuster. The rest I pretty much have now on my HR2x. I have no idea what Swivel search is.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

samo said:


> That is my favorite. How can competitors call their machine a DVR and not offer this important DVR functionality. You also missed the pause ads. Great feature for people who want to have the best that DVRs have to offer.


If I wanted to order pizza would just do it via the online game I play with the /pizza command, simple and a lot faster


----------



## GKevinK (Mar 10, 2003)

stevel said:


> One can remote schedule on an HR10 through directv.com.


I've gotten used to scheduling my TiVo's online, and was a little surprised when I first tried to use the scheduling feature on directv.com that they wanted extra $ per month for the feature.


----------



## Rainy Dave (Nov 11, 2001)

GKevinK said:


> I've gotten used to scheduling my TiVo's online, and was a little surprised when I first tried to use the scheduling feature on directv.com that they wanted extra $ per month for the feature.


Hmm...I've never been charged extra for using online scheduling on directv.com.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

GKevinK said:


> I've gotten used to scheduling my TiVo's online, and was a little surprised when I first tried to use the scheduling feature on directv.com that they wanted extra $ per month for the feature.


That's incorrect. There is no extra charge for online scheduling. And it works with both DirecTivo's (at least the HR10) and the DirecTV DVR Plus line.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Remote scheduling is free.


----------



## GKevinK (Mar 10, 2003)

Heh... I don't know what path to scheduling I tried before, but it definitely kicked me to a service upgrade page. I just went to the website and was able to schedule successfully this time - so it's a mystery where I went before. (shrug)


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

GKevinK said:


> I've gotten used to scheduling my TiVo's online, and was a little surprised when I first tried to use the scheduling feature on directv.com that they wanted extra $ per month for the feature.


have scheduled through the website and the Iphone app and have never seen any additional charges on my bill, it stays exactly the same every month


----------



## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

GKevinK said:


> I've gotten used to scheduling my TiVo's online, and was a little surprised when I first tried to use the scheduling feature on directv.com that they wanted extra $ per month for the feature.


There is no charge for online scheduling via DirecTV.com.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

GKevinK said:


> I've gotten used to scheduling my TiVo's online, and was a little surprised when I first tried to use the scheduling feature on directv.com that they wanted extra $ per month for the feature.


If you changed your package, that could have triggered a change. Older packages are grandfathered until you add or drop service, which places the new rates and package structures in place (something they changed about 18-24 months ago). The scheduling portal itself is free.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

shaown said:


> I have nothing bad to say about the HD DVR+ platform, but I am SHOCKED you would compare a HR10 to a HR20/21 and consider that to be a fair comparison. HR10s are running what 6.xx version of Tivo SW, compared to what 11.xx on Series 3 platforms? That is an incredibly old baseline!!!...


Oh if only it were a numbers game. If it were, Spinal Tap turning their amps up to "11" would have been more than simply a dead-on mocking of numbers games. By that measure, the HR2x's 0x0368 is a much higher number than a mere "11.xx", so using your logic, it must be hundreds of times more advanced.

And, BTW, any comparison of any current DVRs is a fair comparison. It's not like I didn't qualify that with their history. The fact remains they are all valid and available now, and in wide use.

When the last release was and how many there have been are also both beside the point. On one extreme, DISH DVRs used to have a new release every other week, because they were in flopsweat mode desperately trying to fix bad software after the fact. That does not make the fact that they had a lot of releases important in the least. On the other extreme, Tivo stayed at 2.0, and later at 3.1 for years each time, specifically because they worked and there was no need to up rev them. Timelines are not the measure.

What matters is none of that, but a feature comparison and how important and significant each of those features really are. The HR10 was well-advanced beyond anything else in its day, but has arguably been caught and passed by the HR2x. Even as a "dead" platform, the HR10 is still eminently useful and still holds its own; there are legions of diehards that refuse to give it up to this day. So it can be regarded as "old", but in many ways matches both the Tivo HD and the HR2x, both much more current platforms, especially in core features.

Regardless of whether the last release was last year or yesterday, there really isn't a significant difference between the three platforms, other than only one of them can get significant HD from DTV.



shaown said:


> ...When Tivo releases a new version for DirectTV, I'm sure they will base it on a Series 3 or 4 platform, and roll up whatever features DirectTV allows them to...


I could not even begin to guess where that logic comes from or speculate what you might have pulled it out of. I'm sure none of us really has a clue, but this sounds quite a bit more clueless than other speculation I have seen. Most folks figure it will be an evolutionary step above the Tivo HD, _minus _any features that DTV sees as competitive to their service. It would need to have at least an equivalent feature set, and probably a unique and significant feature set to be considered "premium" compared to where the HR2x will be by then.



shaown said:


> ...Features not present in a HR10 but available in current Tivos includes (but is not limited to) support for MRV (transfer between Tivos), TivoToGo (download video to PCs), YouTube playback, Amazon VOD, NetFlix support, Blockbuster Support, The new HD Tivo Search/Swivel Search like functionality, Ability to run HME apps including order Pizza, Weather, Yahoo, etc, etc, Support for Web Videos, ability to schedule remotely via tivo.com, ability to see your to-do/now playing lists remotely (I think), and finally hardware abilities like the ability to use external storage via eSata and wireless adaptors via usb. There are many other improvements from Version 6 to Version 11.x that I am sure I have missed on UI, etc, etc.
> 
> -Shaown


Well, now I'm the one who's "shocked"; shocked that you regard any of these as significant features. They all seem to be window dressing and have little to do with functionality, reliability, ergonomics or the core tasks of recording and playing back programs that most subscribers care about. Being able to do non-DVR tasks that I have been able to do all along with my computer or phone doesn't seem to have a lot of drool factor; I couldn't give two $#!+s about most of that. About the only thing significant beyond the old HR10 in your list is eSATA connectivity, and you still need a much larger drive for the Tivo HD than you do for the HR2x to store the same amount of content.

The HR2x has had many of these listed "features" all along (with others in the pipeline), while the Tivo HD seems to have few if any of the actually truly helpful and clever features the HR2x has.


----------



## rv65 (Aug 30, 2008)

The next gen DirecTivo will actually be a software download. This will be launched along side DirecTV's next gen DVR platform. I believe the Tivo software only works on the next gen DVR and not the current HR boxes. The next gen boxes can run either Tivo or D* software. The next gen boxes will have a better CPU and more RAM. It should come out 1Q10.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

rv65 said:


> The next gen DirecTivo will actually be a software download. This will be launched along side DirecTV's next gen DVR platform. I believe the Tivo software only works on the next gen DVR and not the current HR boxes. The next gen boxes can run either Tivo or D* software. The next gen boxes will have a better CPU and more RAM. It should come out 1Q10.


I will be surprised if you can switch between the two (D* or Tivo) after you get the DVR installed. It'll be cool if they can do it.


----------



## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> Oh if only it were a numbers game. If it were, Spinal Tap turning their amps up to "11" would have been more than simply a dead-on mocking of numbers games. By that measure, the HR2x's 0x0368 is a much higher number than a mere "11.xx", so using your logic, it must be hundreds of times more advanced.
> .


Its not a numbers game, as a Tivo User since 2001, owning Series 1 and S2 boxes (Standalone and DirecTivo), a HR10-250, a Series 3, and now a Tivo HD, I've seen substansial change from the 2.x platform I started with to the 11.x base today. I'd say from the 6.x to 11.x has been pretty major



TyroneShoes said:


> What matters is none of that, but a feature comparison and how important and significant each of those features really are. The HR10 was well-advanced beyond anything else in its day, but has arguably been caught and passed by the HR2x. Even as a "dead" platform, the HR10 is still eminently useful and still holds its own; there are legions of diehards that refuse to give it up to this day. So it can be regarded as "old", but in many ways matches both the Tivo HD and the HR2x, both much more current platforms, especially in core features.


I disagree. The HR10 was not that impressive when launched. In fact it was mediocre. I paid 999 for it on day one and loved it because it did what I wanted, but it basically had no functionality over existing Series 2 boxes except HD support. How was that "advanced beyond anything else in its day"
It was basically tacking on HD support to existing DirectTivo boxes.



TyroneShoes said:


> I could not even begin to guess where that logic comes from or speculate what you might have pulled it out of. I'm sure none of us really has a clue, but this sounds quite a bit more clueless than other speculation I have seen.


It comes from basic common sense. Tivo has two choices, build a common OS based on what it has, or build something from scratch. They will almost certainly build an OS based on they have, which is what the Series 3 boxes run. I guess third choice is resurrect a dead codebase and rerelease a Series 2 bases OS/box, but I imagine the chance of that is near zero. HW certainly can vary, but as you can see from Comcast Tivo, its only a question of what features DirectTV decided they allow/want.



TyroneShoes said:


> Well, now I'm the one who's "shocked"; shocked that you regard any of these as significant features. They all seem to be window dressing and have little to do with functionality, reliability, ergonomics or the core tasks of recording and playing back programs that most subscribers care about.


Oh I did not say they are all significant. but "any" ??? I find ethernet connectivity to be great, I love MRV (I transfer shows upstairs all the time, I love TivoToGo, on a business trip right now and have a dozen shows with me, I do use the Amazon VOD service pretty frequently, in HD and SD. These are major feature over a HR10. Some of the other stuff is window dressing, but I wasn't try to only list the features important to me, but the ones I could think of that have been added. BTW, I also do enjoy the new Tivo Search UI, try it, its great.



TyroneShoes said:


> The HR2x has had many of these listed "features" all along (with others in the pipeline), while the Tivo HD seems to have few if any of the actually truly helpful and clever features the HR2x has.


As I said before, I have nothing bad to say about HR2x. This post started by asking what a new DirectTivo in 2010 might look like. I was reacting to your comparison of a HR10 to a HR20. I'd compare a S3 or Tivo HD to a HR2x to get more reasonable idea of that.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> ... there really are only four things about my HR10-250's that I prefer over the HR20's:
> 
> 1) Slo-mo is implemented slightly better on the HR10
> 
> 2) Playlist sorting is done slightly better...


Item #1 is a totally unbelievable claim -- so different from reality that it renders anything you post similarly untrustworthy. Surely you know (but some readers of this thread may not) that Slo-mo on the HR10 is simply a button that always works without fail, while on the HR2x it's implemented as a press-and-hold function that's so difficult to use that several people have written they just ignore the feature and pretend that it's not available at all. In general, all of the HR2x's press-and-hold functions work only sometimes; when they work, they take way too long to engage; and they sometimes engage when you don't want them to.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

BTW, we've learned from http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=167435 that the possible new box that can run both the unreliable DVR+ software and the new TiVo software may be designated HR24-500. If so, soon we'll have to stop referring to the bad software as "the HR2x software." "HR2x" will come to refer only to the hardware series, and will become less and less useful as differences emerge between the HR24 and, say, the HR23.

I think I'll be calling the bad software DVR- or --DVR, a play on DirecTV's marketing moniker, DVR+. Or maybe *DVR"+"*, using one standard meaning of quotes: _Someone said it, I didn't; you should take it with a grain of salt._


----------



## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

Syzygy said:


> BTW, we've learned from http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=167435 that the possible new box that can run both the unreliable DVR+ software and the new TiVo software may be designated HR24-500. If so, soon we'll have to stop referring to the bad software as "the HR2x software." "HR2x" will come to refer only to the hardware series, and will become less and less useful as differences emerge between the HR24 and, say, the HR23.
> 
> I think I'll be calling the bad software DVR- or --DVR, a play on DirecTV's marketing moniker, DVR+. Or maybe *DVR"+"*, using one standard meaning of quotes: _Someone said it, I didn't; you should take it with a grain of salt._


The HR24 is NOT the new DirecTV/Tivo HD DVR.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

litzdog911 said:


> The HR24 is NOT the new DirecTV/Tivo HD DVR.


I bow to your nearly 11,000 posts.  But how do you know? Or, rather, _what _do you know? Dish, plz!


----------



## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

Can't really say how I know.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

litzdog911 said:


> Can't really say how I know.


OK, I get it. _"I've already said too much."_


----------



## dirk1843 (Jul 7, 2003)

You know what I would be happy with in D* TiVo??

An HR10-250 that was MPEG4 compatible.

It worked, had everything most of the users needed....how hard could it be to port that over to MPEG4?? I was happy with mine, and with D*......until they changed formats.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

dirk1843 said:


> You know what I would be happy with in D* TiVo??
> 
> An HR10-250 that was MPEG4 compatible...


+1


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

sublimnl said:


> I have been struggling with Comcast just so that I can have my TivoHD and have just about had enough of it all. Its been a year and they still can't get all of my channels working at the same time. Pathetic.
> 
> As such, I am considering switching back to DTV (used to have a hacked directivo around 04/05), but I cannot give up some of the features that I currently have with my TiVoHD - namely, multiroom viewing, Audio/Video streaming from my PC to the TiVo, and Amazon/Netflix VOD. I know the Amazon/Netflix support is a real longshot given that DTV has their own PPV service, so maybe this one I can live without, though the wife wouldn't like it.
> 
> ...


Uknown about the future TiVo boxes...

However... with or without TiVo... if you decide you want a Blu-ray Player.

The LG BD390 is wonderfull, It has VUDU, NETFLIX, DLNA client capability and works as Network media player, has a usb port for NTFS formated drives up to 2TB. It also supports BD-Live and BD Bonusview.

Netflix on it is much better than netflix on the TiVo, Not as good as the interface on the Xbox 360 though. The VUDU interface is identical to all the others. (Although lately the BD-390 VUDU hasn't been upgraded with the latest VUDU feature set yet).

Very nice single unit box, all in a blu-ray player. Still though... Be nice to have TiVo on DirecTV I am sure.

I left DirecTV when I finanly upgrade to HD because at that time DirecTV didn't have a TiVO HD box!

TGC


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

shaown said:


> I disagree...I paid 999 for it on day one and loved it because it did what I wanted, but it basically had no functionality over existing Series 2 boxes except HD support. How was that "advanced beyond anything else in its day"
> It was basically tacking on HD support to existing DirectTivo boxes...


The answer is pretty simple:

The Series 2 boxes themselves were "advanced beyond anything else" in _*their *_day. DISH and cable DVRs were seriously not in Tivo's league. But, they all did the same basic job of recording, so while _advanced over all competitors,_ there was nothing all that unique. The Series 2 was a Mercedes among Camrys.

But there were chief differences with the HR10 that elevated its status. If, as you wrongly claim, all they did was tack on HD capability, (which was _NOT AT ALL _the case -- OTA recording of HD was a very significant brand-new feature in 2003), they _still _would have been far-and-away the most advanced platform. But in 2003 there was only a handful of cable and DBS HD channels and few-if-any local channels in HD on cable or DBS. More importantly, there were limited options to record them.

Even more importantly, back in that day, the HR10 was, in fact, just about the only option for recording HD content OTA, and certainly significantly advanced over cable and DISH offerings, both in platform and HD content _of significance_. Cable took their sweet time adding even the locals in HD, and more and more DBS customers were having their distant nets shut off every day (DISH still doesn't serve very many HD markets with very many local HD channels, comparatively speaking, as does DTV). If you wanted HD for network TV (which was where 95% of HD was and where 98% of either popular or decent HD programming was in 2003), The Tivo HR10 HD "Mercedes" now had the open road pretty much all to itself.

Sony had a primitive stand-alone recorder, overpriced and underpowered, but there was little else. To have HD recording capability from DBS in the DTivo bit-bucket format that also recorded HD from local channels was unmatched anywhere for years. And THAT, is why it was advanced beyond anything in its day; advanced platform to start with, with near-exclusive access to where the desired HD content was. If you had an HDTV in 2003 and didn't have a HR10, you were running to the bathroom and making sandwiches during the commercial breaks, just like your grandparents in 1973.

The HR10 was the premiere HD recording platform, unrivaled, for quite some time. DISH eventually put something out, but nothing of note. Cable HD DVRs are still fairly pitiful. The HR10 was reliable, ergonomically friendly, expandable, and eventually, affordable. Those were attributes not found anywhere else in 2003, and actually there were no significant competitors until the HR2x platform settled down and the Tivo HD finally shipped. Things have changed, but that's the way it was.

So, you could not be more wrong to disagree with that. Those were the facts. All of your other "points" are just about as wrong-headed, and I won't waste my time responding to them. We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. Hope I can sleep tonight.


----------



## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

litzdog911 said:


> The HR24 is NOT the new DirecTV/Tivo HD DVR.


Since the HD DirecTivo is HR10 and the DirecTV branded is the HR20, maybe the the newer DirecTivo/DirecTV branded will be HR30. But my wife has indicated to me often that I've been wrong before!


----------



## edkut (Mar 14, 2009)

I agree with Dirk. I liked my HR10-250 but had to switch to the HR2X to satisfy my need for more HD. I still have a Philips DSR708 SD which I still like the functionality of way better than my Directv DVR any day. I will say the new DTV DVR does have some nice features but TIVO kicks ass over them for sure. I'm still hopeful for a DTV TIVO roll out soon.


----------



## phixel (Jun 2, 2003)

From TiVo's last quarterly filing: 

"Additionally, we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR. The new HD DVR will include popular TiVo broadband features, and will be immediately accessible to DIRECTV's entire national customer base on day-one of the launch. We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV and those subscribers are some of our most loyal customers. Now, as these customers look to upgrade from standard definition programming, they will have the option to choose the TiVo experience to help them truly get the most out of their high definition viewing experience"

At least the project is on-track..


----------



## tucsonbill (Aug 11, 2004)

GKevinK said:


> I've gotten used to scheduling my TiVo's online, and was a little surprised when I first tried to use the scheduling feature on directv.com that they wanted extra $ per month for the feature.


Nope, as others have pointed out -- 'taint so. However I have to say that online scheduling via D* is such a PITA (well actually it's not so much the schedulling functionality as it is the idiotic design on the online Guide) that it's only used for my HR21 and then only rarely. I schedule my Tivos directly using Tivo Web Plus. Having seen this functionality it's beyond me why every DVR doesn't feature a Web Page Interface. It doesn't seem that complicated.
OTOH, we're probably not the average users.


----------



## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

"immediately accesible to entire national customer base on day one", so it's simply a software update that anyone can get?


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

Yeah, that's what it sounds like -- but I hope it's not that. Maintaining different code revisions for each model, as DirecTV now needs to do, would be a huge burden on the programmers.


----------



## cthomp21 (Jul 15, 2007)

Cudahy said:


> "immediately accesible to entire national customer base on day one", so it's simply a software update that anyone can get?


Most likely not. The technological aspects would be huge.

IMO, "immediately accessible" = any D* subscriber can go out and buy one, as this won't be a regional/timed rollout.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

cthomp21 said:


> Most likely not. The technological aspects would be huge.
> 
> IMO, "immediately accessible" = any D* subscriber can go out and buy one, as this won't be a regional/timed rollout.


From what the original press release stated it appears to be a software upgrade, th ROI is not there for Directv to maintain two distint hardware platforms, unless the premium charge for the Tivo based unit is high enough to cover it. according to the original press release, the stock Directv DVR will be the normal one, the TIVO based unit will be the premium charge boxes.

Why would the tecnnological aspects be huge? The hardware will be exactly the same, the base hardware will work, would be willing to be the modified software could be dropped on just about any HR2X box and work


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> Yeah, that's what it sounds like -- but I hope it's not that. Maintaining different code revisions for each model, as DirecTV now needs to do, would be a huge burden on the programmers.


they only maintain two codes bases, one SD and one HD and the tivo software would be a second one for the HD units sent only to those that are flagged by paying the premium for it.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

cthomp21 said:


> Most likely not. The technological aspects would be huge.
> 
> IMO, "immediately accessible" = any D* subscriber can go out and buy one, as this won't be a regional/timed rollout.


change buy to lease and you might be right, but again cannot see them maintain two spereate boxes for just a software upgrade, that would really be very poor business sense. You can almost bet that the new unots will have no functionality that directly competes with services that Directv offers and will be hack proof like the current directv units


----------



## cthomp21 (Jul 15, 2007)

sjberra said:


> From what the original press release stated it appears to be a software upgrade, th ROI is not there for Directv to maintain two distint hardware platforms, unless the premium charge for the Tivo based unit is high enough to cover it. according to the original press release, the stock Directv DVR will be the normal one, the TIVO based unit will be the premium charge boxes.
> 
> Why would the tecnnological aspects be huge? The hardware will be exactly the same, the base hardware will work, would be willing to bet the modified software could be dropped on just about any HR2X box and work


The common thought on dbstalk is that the new HDTivo and next-gen D* DVR will run on the same hardware platform.

To expect Tivo to program code for all of the HR2X's in the field (of which there are quite few variations) seems far-fetched to me. You'd need different code for each model (HR20, HR21, HR22, HR23) and each sub-model (-100, -700, whatever else). Some of these models are no longer manufactured. Can you even imagine the headaches D* would have to field if they somehow made a Tivo download that could be applied to these boxes? What would D* possibly gain from allowing this when the Tivo premium will go to Tivo? No way this will ever happen...


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

cthomp21 said:


> The common thought on dbstalk is that the new HDTivo and next-gen D* DVR will run on the same hardware platform.
> 
> To expect Tivo to program code for all of the HR2X's in the field (of which there are quite few variations) seems far-fetched to me. You'd need different code for each model (HR20, HR21, HR22, HR23) and each sub-model (-100, -700, whatever else). Some of these models are no longer manufactured. Can you even imagine the headaches D* would have to field if they somehow made a Tivo download that could be applied to these boxes? What would D* possibly gain from allowing this when the Tivo premium will go to Tivo? No way this will ever happen...


Really, you need different code for each model? Strange, have a HR20, 21 and a 23 and they all got the same exact code base on the last NR. Wonder why the developers of the tivo code would not be able to do this.

The "sub-model" as you put it indicates the manufacturer, not a manufactured difference in the units themselves outisde of drive space for the main model number.

100 RCA
200 Samsung
300 Philips
400 Hughes
500 Humax
600 LG
700 Pace

If they do release a new model of the HR2X it will more then likely be just a normal new model release, not a special release for the TIVO software, suspect that the model will come out even if the TIVO software never hits the bricks in 2010.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

sjberra said:


> Really, you need different code for each model? Strange, have a HR20, 21 and a 23 and they all got the same exact code base on the last NR. Wonder why the developers of the tivo code would not be able to do this...


If you read the DBSTalk threads about the HR2x's lack of responsiveness (very slow response and ignored keypresses), it seems that the latest update, 0x0368, made some models faster and others slower. One likely response to this situation is to (further) branch the code to allow addressing each model individually where necessary.

Maybe TiVo's developers will come up with software that works equally well on all models. Could happen!



sjberra said:


> ... cannot see them maintain two separate boxes for just a software upgrade, that would really be very poor business sense.


But I'd much, much rather have my additional fee pay for a better box along with the no-doubt-better TiVo software.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> If you read the DBSTalk threads about the HR2x's lack of responsiveness (very slow response and ignored keypresses), it seems that the latest update, 0x0368, made some models faster and others slower. One likely response to this situation is to (further) branch the code to allow addressing each model individually where necessary.
> 
> Maybe TiVo's developers will come up with software that works equally well on all models. Could happen!
> 
> But I'd much, much rather have my additional fee pay for a better box along with the no-doubt-better TiVo software.


really have had no complaints from the kids or the wife on any issues with channel changing since the upgrade has been applied, sorry not enough of a justifcation to maintain different gens of the software and have to QA each seperately

In my case it does not matter what the TIVO developers come up with, the TIVO interface is not worth any extra charge for me, in fact I feel they need to pay me to use it. I have 2 tivo based units left on my account, they are owned and when they die they will be replaced by a Directv unit that is sent to me and flagged as owned. At that point it will be thank god and greyhound they are gone.

As far as "no-doubt-better TIVO" software, that is a personal opinion, while some people revel in it, therre are those that do not. I happen to fall into the do not catagory, TIVO's menus and program tree remond me of a early beta release of Windows 3.0 that I worked with, again they would need to pay me monthly to use it.


----------



## KurtBJC (Jan 2, 2007)

The notion that this is going to run on one of the DirecTV DVR platforms really worries me. I have an HR21, and think it's pretty awful; if any of the unpleasantness and slowness of the interface carries over to the TiVo software (e.g., the awful grid-style guide, the picture-in-guide feature, the agonizing slowness of viewing future listings on a channel using the "info" button or of searching future listings using the search functions) I'll be very disappointed. I certainly hope, too, that they'll come out with a TiVo-style remote for it...


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

KurtBJC said:


> The notion that this is going to run on one of the DirecTV DVR platforms really worries me. I have an HR21, and think it's pretty awful; if any of the unpleasantness and slowness of the interface carries over to the TiVo software, ... I'll be very disappointed...


I'm confident that the TiVo software engineers are not the boobs that DirecTV's seem to be. And their code will be comparatively fresh, without the accumulation of patches that inevitably degrades old code, especially when the language is unsafe, like C or C++ (and even more especially when the code is launched containing a humongous number of mistakes, as the HR20 firmware was).

But what bothers me is that I (too) have an HR21, and HR20s are no longer available except for the very occasional refurb. As recently posted [11-11-09] on DBSTalk (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2272580#post2272580) by *LameLefty*:


> _The HR20 uses a different chipset than the HR21/22/23 models. It has two discrete components that were combined into a single chip for the later models, helping drive costs down. As a side-effect of this engineering decision, the later units have been functionally slower at some tasks than the original._


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> I'm confident that the TiVo software engineers are not the boobs that DirecTV's seem to be.


Sure, just look in a Comcast forum how great of the job TiVo engineers did porting TiVO software to Comcast boxes.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Syzygy said:


> I'm confident that the TiVo software engineers are not the boobs that DirecTV's seem to be. And their code will be comparatively fresh, without the accumulation of patches that inevitably degrades old code, especially when the language is unsafe, like C or C++ (and even more especially when the code is launched containing a humongous number of mistakes, as the HR20 firmware was)..


Interesting. One might think you were describing Windows 7. I think that code had well over 100,000 lines patched around as early as Win2000. But then Windows still seriously dominates the world OS market, even if Linux and Mac OS are considered singificantly "better" in many ways. Life just ain't fair, is it?

But let's not kid ourselves that Tivo was a smash out of the box. It took a few years to get _that _right, too. Tivo is just as gulty of shipping a work in progress as is everyone else. Things weren't really all that brilliant until version 3, and it wasn't _really _practical until the bit-bucket DTivo and bigger HDDs came about. They had their share of fits and starts, and patched code, too.

Maybe we could use the analogy of the tortoise and the hare. I can't disagree that eventual Tivo programming was inspired and visionary, and original DVR+ programming was bush-league and ham-handed. And, possibly this is because comparatively speaking, Tivo programmers were better, more clever, more visionary (the operative term being "were"). But DTV's programmers have worked hard and overcome a lot, and eventually produced a DVR that is arguably better and more feature-laden than Tivo _(AAACK! Heresy! Blasphemy!)_ while Tivo seems to rest on its laurels (and I am not talking about auxillary non-dvr features that let you order a pizza through your remote, I'm talking about useful, clever features that Tivo never seemed to be able to think of, real, handy improvements to the actual DVR experience).

Tivo may have its diehard supporters (I am one of them, actually, just not one with blinders on). There are definite flashes of brilliance there (even if those flashes are mostly a decade old and there have been few if any recent flashes). But there is no denying the fact that the HD DVR+ is a resounding success based on hard work and significant development which accomplished the lofty goals of their business plan, while Tivo stock has been in the toilet since about day one. About the only time Tivo did well was when they had the teat of DTV to suckle on.

And all DVRs owe a lot to Tivo (imitation is indeed the sincerest form of flattery) but "what have they done for us lately?" They suffer from the same thing Mac OS suffers from. Concepts like icons, nested folders, dialog boxes, even the progress bar, came directly from the original Mac OS, and yet now they are ubiquitous, almost as if those brilliant concepts were a part of the public domain. Apple gets no credit for jumpstarting the age of GUI-based computing, and Tivo gets no credit for being the visionaries that gave us modern DVR technology, except from tunnel-vision diehards that would like to rock themselves to sleep imagining that Tivo actually still might have a corner on vision, clever programming ideas, expandability, or reliability. Sorry, but that boat has sailed.


----------



## KurtBJC (Jan 2, 2007)

I have very little insight into the deep issues of user interface design; indeed, I am just the sort of person who probably should never design a user interface, though I do know what I like when I see it. I have to say, though, that to my taste, using the DirecTV DVR interface is about as pleasant as munching on broken glass while stabbing myself in the eye with a fork. This is admittedly a subjective judgment with which some people disagree. I can't personally understand how anyone could actually like the DirecTV DVR interface, but then, I can't understand rap music, either, and millions of people love that...


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> *I'm confident that the TiVo software engineers are not the boobs that DirecTV's seem to be.* And their code will be comparatively fresh, without the accumulation of patches that inevitably degrades old code, especially when the language is unsafe, like C or C++ (and even more especially when the code is launched containing a humongous number of mistakes, as the HR20 firmware was).
> 
> But what bothers me is that I (too) have an HR21, and HR20s are no longer available except for the very occasional refurb. As recently posted [11-11-09] on DBSTalk (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2272580#post2272580) by *LameLefty*:


/ROFLMAO Don't hold your breath or bet you life savings on that comment, you will have a very rude awakening


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

Thoughtful comments, well written, TyroneShoes; and I agreed with almost all of what you said -- until you started giving lavish praise to the HD DVR+...


TyroneShoes said:


> I can't disagree that eventual TiVo programming was inspired and visionary, and original DVR+ programming was bush-league and ham-handed. And, possibly this is because comparatively speaking, TiVo programmers were better, more clever, more visionary (the operative term being "were"). But DTV's programmers have worked hard and overcome a lot, and eventually produced a DVR that is arguably better and more feature-laden than TiVo (AAACK! Heresy! Blasphemy!) while TiVo seems to rest on its laurels...
> 
> Tivo may have its diehard supporters (I am one of them, actually, just not one with blinders on). There are definite flashes of brilliance there (even if those flashes are mostly a decade old and there have been few if any recent flashes). But there is no denying the fact that *the HD DVR+ is a resounding success *based on hard work and significant development which accomplished the lofty goals of their business plan...


The HD DVR+ may be a success in the business sense; subscribers are putting up with its inadequacies in order to get more than 50 channels of HD. Maybe you haven't used an HR2x enough to fully appreciate the rottenness.

First, for balance, the HD DVR+ has some good aspects, including:

• 90-minute buffers.
• User-settable recording defaults.
• One-touch Record in the Guide or in lists.
• One-touch Keep Until I Delete in the Playlist.
• Available-space meter.
• Bookmarks.
• Caller ID.
• Triple-tap text entry. (Wish it worked consistently.)
• Conflicting shows are included in the To Do List.
• HD icon and (R) icon on shows in the Guide and most lists.
• History list displays why things occurred at its top level.
• Automatic padding of a recording's start and/or stop time by one minute when possible.
• Three-keypress access to Closed Captioning. (Wish it were one keypress.)
• Series Options and View Upcoming are available directly from the detail screen of a show that has already been recorded.

And now for some of the really rotten stuff (far outweighing the good stuff):

• Series Links are limited to 50.
• Keyword Autorecord SLs that specify "First Run Only" record reruns too, but sometimes miss first-run episodes.
• Search-result lists refresh themselves at random times for no reason.
• Searching sometimes doesn't find matches past the next 3-7 days even when there are 11 days' worth of Guide data.
• Search results include all channels: VOD shows, PPV channels, and all the channels you can't get.
• Autorecording based on keyword searching records PPV channels and a few channels you can't get.

The last two problems exist because (a) the Channels I Get list is always wrong and can't be edited, and (b) DirecTV wants to remind you constantly that you can buy additional channels, plus PPV and VOD shows. (I fervently hope that TiVo won't be required to pollute their own search results in the same fashion.)


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

KurtBJC said:


> I can't personally understand how anyone could actually like the DirecTV DVR interface


I actually like it better then the Tivo UI. It's clean, makes sense and every function I need is quickly found. I always round the Tivo UI pretty confusing (my first Tivo back in 2000). The DirecTV DVR UI was really a breath of fresh air the first time I used it. Took my wife about 5 minutes on her own to figure it out (the true test) and haven't looked back since.


----------



## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

If Directv would add a subcategory search("movies")to its alphabetical title search I could live with it, though I still hope to get the new TivoHD early next year.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

Cudahy said:


> If DirecTV would add a subcategory search ("movies") to its alphabetical title search ..


You can sort of do that now using a Keyword search ("<complete or partial title> TTITLE") and drilling down to append "& Movies" before searching. (TTITLE is optional; it prevents matches on words in the description.)

FOOL TTITLE finds _Why Do Fools Fall in Love _and _Flashbacks of a Fool_ -- A trailing wildcard ("*") is implied
OF A FOOL TTITLE finds only _Flashbacks of a Fool_ -- If you use more than one word, no trailing wildcard is implied


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

FYI that in the current CE testing cycle on the HR2x the search is getting a complete overhaul, see DBSTalk for details. They are also doing a "swivel search" type thing as well, at least as I understand it. So when you pull up the info on a movie or tv show you can choose "Cast and Crew" which will list those people out and you can select one and it will then perform a search for that actor and show any upcoming shows they are in. Also, IMDB type information is included for any actor such as viewing their entire filmography and it will display if any of those tv shows/movies are found in the guide data giving you the opportunity to record.
Also new is a "Suggested shows" option although it's not really working yet. 

So a lot of search changes are coming which may address many of the concerns in this thread. Yea, it's still "not a Tivo" but...


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> TiVo will show a ALL-IN-WONDER TiVo Media Box... The cost will be $599 in Aug 2010.


No leasing? Apparently this is NOT for use with DirecTV's satellite service.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Syzygy said:


> Thoughtful comments, well written, TyroneShoes; and I agreed with almost all of what you said -- until you started giving lavish praise to the HD DVR+...
> 
> The HD DVR+ may be a success in the business sense; subscribers are putting up with its inadequacies in order to get more than 50 channels of HD. Maybe you haven't used an HR2x enough to fully appreciate the rottenness...


Actually, I had the very first HR20 my installer had ever seen (August 2006?). Now talk about rotten--I was expecting a replacement HR10, and had barely even heard about the HR20. But I gave it a honest evaluation, which ended a week later with me nearly hurling it off my balcony like a discus. Frankly, the original HR20 _blew out loud_. I returned it and scrounged a floor demo HR10 from Circuit City.

But 15 months passed and I had another HR10 meltdown. I grudgingly accepted a HR20 while checking out other vendor options, and was pleasantly surprised to see how much improvement there had been. Usually, when a field-upgradeable device ships, it never really improves with up revs. This was an exception. And the platform has become consistently better since then. It's a real contender. You and I (and others) may argue who is 1 or 2, but anything else (DISH DVRs on my list) is a severely distant third or fourth (cable DVRs). And if I were forced at this point to choose, I'd have to choose the HR2x.

So, yes, I have a couple years of daily experience with the HR2x platform, and side-by side with a couple of HR10's, so you can also rest assured that I have not forgotten what Tivo brought to the table.

But let me redefine "resounding success", by the fact that both DTV's churn rate and subscriber growth have been exceptional since the HR2x debuted (and since the HR10 DTivo went away), which to me says that folks are not simply "putting up" with it. And for the last year or so DISH and cable have had most of the prime HD channels, reducing that original HD edge that DTV used to enjoy, so I hardly think folks are settling for an inferior DVR just to get _The Daily Show _in HD. They haven't had to for some time.

And "rotten" seems a bit harsh. Your lament over 50 SLs is a common argument, yet one that has never rung true to me. I have 4 DVRs, and I double record everything (and in HD) due to the fact that neither the HR10 or the HR2x platform is perfectly reliable (nothing bugs me more than missing an ep of a favorite show). But I still have had only one or two instances where I had to remove an obsolete SL to get under 50 so that I could add a new one. I've never experienced an "I just don't have enough SLs" moment.

It seems that if you get to the point where you are recording 50 shows regularly, that HDD space becomes an issue, and playlist sorting becomes an issue (not to mention conflicts) meaning the whole system becomes kludgy and impractical (and the obvious solution is adding another DVR). So, I don't find 50 unreasonable. But it is a valid comparison point; I think the obvious complaint is "Tivo does it, why can't you?" DTV should fix that just as an image issue alone.

But that is to me about the only of your arguments that seems to matter. All of what you say is "rotten" other than that seems to be based on search issues. True, Tivo has always excelled at this, and the HR2x seems a bit half-baked in that area ("half-baked" seems a lot more appropriate than "rotten") but I don't see it as a real concern, and it really doesn't bother me that much. If you put search issues aside, how "rotten" is it, really? (_NOT _an invite, folks--put down the mouse!)

But sure, I want perfection, and I want every feature. Truth is, no DVR has it all. That is why the combo of HR10s and HR2x's seems to serve me so well, I'd bet. I am banking on the hope that by the time my HR10's bite the dust, that the HR2x platform will be even better, and if they hold to historical form, it will.

All I ever really wanted was for the Tivo drought period at DTV to be relatively painless, and thanks to the HR2x, it's been just that. But the HR2x has been so good that now I don't really even care if the new MPEG-4 DTivo ever becomes a reality--I think I'll be just fine without it.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

Syzygy said:


> DirecTV wants to remind you constantly that you can buy additional channels, plus PPV and VOD shows.


The fact that DirecTV intentionally pollutes their search results (irritating you and wasting your time), IMO, makes them evil and their devices rotten. To call their search method "half-baked," as you (TyroneShoes) did, is way off the mark. It's called "minimization."


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Syzygy said:


> The fact that DirecTV intentionally pollutes their search results (irritating you and wasting your time), IMO, makes them evil and their devices rotten. To call their search method "half-baked," as you did, is way off the mark. It's called "minimization."


Perhaps they include PPV in search results for people like me who actually want to know what is available on PPV. I actually like auto-recordings to include PPV because I do not have to pay for it till I start watching, but if I like what was recorded then I can watch it anytime within a month. S3 TiVo doesn't have PPV, but on old DTivo you had to pay for PPV upfront. Obviously, TiVo could not auto-record PPV even if it was a perfect match for your keyword.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

For people like Samo, who I'm sure make up a vanishingly small minority, there could be an option "Please show me everything even though (A) I don't want to pay for it, or (B) there's no way I'll ever be able to get it ( Channels I Don't Get + Channels I Can't Get )."

Seriously, if there were more than one *editable *channel list, *and *they could be applied to searching, one list could consist only of desirable channels, and a second list could contain Channels I Get + Channels I Don't Get -- but not Channels I Can't Get.

Remember that DirecTV's _Channels I Get _list has been wrong from the beginning and (unlike TiVo channel lists) can't be edited.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> The fact that DirecTV intentionally pollutes their search results (irritating you and wasting your time), IMO, makes them evil and their devices rotten. To call their search method "half-baked," as you (TyroneShoes) did, is way off the mark. It's called "minimization."


Add NNOT PPV to your searches, problem solved, no PPV showing up. 
NNOT VOD will eliminate VOD from searches as well.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

shibby191 said:


> Add NNOT PPV to your searches, problem solved, no PPV showing up.
> NNOT VOD will eliminate VOD from searches as well.


Tried NNOT VOD several months ago; it didn't work. So you're sure it works now? And what about NNOT PPV [NNOT] VOD ?

But anyhoo, such circumlocutions shouldn't be necessary. A decent (read: not evil) search engine would honor a list of channels you have chosen.


----------



## edkut (Mar 14, 2009)

Two things I would adopt from the HR-10 over to the DTV HR2X would be to match the consistent remote response and to allow the list style guide over the grid style. I am still very curious to see what happens with TIVO. Hopefully soon!


----------



## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

edkut said:


> Two things I would adopt from the HR-10 over to the DTV HR2X would be to match the consistent remote response and to allow the list style guide over the grid style. I am still very curious to see what happens with TIVO. Hopefully soon!


And the new TiVo will be a dedicated receiver not a software download to the HR20 family of receivers.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

codespy said:


> And the new TiVo will be a dedicated receiver not a software download to the HR20 family of receivers.


Very, very happy to hear that. Hope it's true.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> Very, very happy to hear that. Hope it's true.


would be curious to see some supporting validatable documentation on a dedicated unit rather then a software locad


----------



## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

sjberra said:


> would be curious to see some supporting validatable documentation on a dedicated unit rather then a software locad


You'd probably have to wait for CES in January.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Syzygy said:


> First, for balance, the HD DVR+ has some good aspects, including:


Someone actually thinks these are *GOOD*?!?!? They are horrible in the extreme!



Syzygy said:


> • One-touch record and one-touch keep.


Well, this one is maybe not horrible, but it is useless. Watching live TV is foolish. Other than the occasional news cast, I haven't watched a single "live" show since I bought my first TiVo in December of 2000.



Syzygy said:


> • Available-space meter.


'Utterly useless on any proper DVR.



Syzygy said:


> • Bookmarks.


Well, maybe not the worst thing on Earth, but hardly very useful. Certainly I would never use it.



Syzygy said:


> • Caller ID.


This is perhaps the most horrible idea anyone has ever conceived. There is nothing I have ever seen which I consider a worse idea for a DVR, and the last thing on Earth I want is a caller ID popping up on my screen when a telemarketer - or worse a relative - wishes to intrude upon me. Hasn't anyone ever heard of voicemail?



Syzygy said:


> • Triple-tap text entry. (Wish it worked consistently.)


This is the most vomitous idea anyone has ever had. Cell phones use it, and the fact (along with others) makes me want to grind my cell phone into bits. If I owned it, instead of my employer, and if I were not required by my employer to carry it, I WOULD grind it to bits.



Syzygy said:


> • Conflicting shows are included in the To Do List.


OK, this one's not bad, at all. It certainly doesn't make up for the triple-tap horse crap, though.



Syzygy said:


> • HD icon and (R) icon on shows in the Guide and most lists.


Having a guide at all is a lousy idea. It truly annoys me that the TiVo has two of them, but then since it's totally unnecessary to ever use either one, I don't. Having an HD icon in most lists would be superfluous (and a waste of screen real estate), since I never record anything but HD channels. A small recording icon in the searches would be OK, I suppose.



Syzygy said:


> • History list displays why things occurred at its top level.


Now that would be nice.



Syzygy said:


> • Automatic padding of a recording's start and/or stop time by one minute when possible.


I presume you mean without the user ever requesting it? Well, OK. It's pretty trivial, though, to request it.



Syzygy said:


> • Three-keypress access to Closed Captioning. (Wish it were one keypress.)


One keypress access requires a dedicated or at least a semi-dedicated button on the remote. I am very sensitive to the notion of adding additional buttons. If everyone had their pet "one press" feature implemented, we would wind up with a 2000 button remote. TiVo has a three keypress access to either the CC menu or to turn CC on or off.



Syzygy said:


> • There are more ways to get to a list of upcoming showings than my TiVo allows.


This is too vague for me to make comment. I would need more specifics.



Syzygy said:


> And now for some of the really rotten stuff (far outweighing the good stuff):
> 
> • Series Links are limited to 50.


Oooh. That's bad.



Syzygy said:


> • Keyword Autorecord SLs that specify "First Run Only" record reruns too, but sometimes miss first-run episodes.


Ooof! The former is a minor annoyance, but the latter is really bad.



Syzygy said:


> • Search-result lists refresh themselves at random times for no reason.


I'm not sure what this implies.



Syzygy said:


> • Searching sometimes doesn't find matches past the next 3-7 days even when there are 11 days' worth of Guide data.


Now that's annoying.



Syzygy said:


> • Search results include all channels: VOD shows, PPV channels, and all the channels you can't get.
> • Autorecording based on keyword searching records PPV channels and a few channels you can't get.
> 
> The last two problems exist because (a) the Channels I Get list is always wrong and can't be edited,


Now that is completely unacceptable! The primary purpose for a DVR is to filter programs one does not wish to watch from the lineup. Being unable to eliminate entire channels from the selection lists is completely unacceptable.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> Someone actually thinks these are *GOOD*?!?!? They are horrible in the extreme!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does watching Live TV have anything to do with this? Either in the guide or in a search results screen it's one touch record so just hitting the record button is all you have to do to record something. I think you're confused on the feature.



> > Originally Posted by Syzygy View Post
> >  Available-space meter.
> 
> 
> 'Utterly useless on any proper DVR.


Ummm, why is that? This was probably the most requested feature for Tivo for many years. It's very useful because it tells you when you need to start clearing off programs to make space. Just the other day I saw our main DVR was down to 10% free and asked the wife to please clear off some of the 50 CSI reruns she had on there. Now we're back to 70% free. Good times.



> > Originally Posted by Syzygy View Post
> >  Caller ID.
> 
> 
> This is perhaps the most horrible idea anyone has ever conceived. There is nothing I have ever seen which I consider a worse idea for a DVR, and the last thing on Earth I want is a caller ID popping up on my screen when a telemarketer - or worse a relative - wishes to intrude upon me. Hasn't anyone ever heard of voicemail?


Ahhh yes, the *second* most requested feature for Tivo over the years. I personally don't need it but it's something many people do want. Just because you or I find it useless doesn't mean that millions of others don't.



> > Originally Posted by Syzygy View Post
> >  Triple-tap text entry. (Wish it worked consistently.)
> 
> 
> This is the most vomitous idea anyone has ever had. Cell phones use it, and the fact (along with others) makes me want to grind my cell phone into bits. If I owned it, instead of my employer, and if I were not required by my employer to carry it, I WOULD grind it to bits.


You're obviously not in tune with the wants of the general public. This was a highly requested feature for the DirecTV DVR and DirecTV actually came thru and granted it. It actually makes searching much faster then using the arrow keys to go from letter to letter. I personally didn't see the big deal of this one until I first tried it.



> > Originally Posted by Syzygy View Post
> >  HD icon and (R) icon on shows in the Guide and most lists.
> 
> 
> Having a guide at all is a lousy idea. It truly annoys me that the TiVo has two of them, but then since it's totally unnecessary to ever use either one, I don't. Having an HD icon in most lists would be superfluous (and a waste of screen real estate), since I never record anything but HD channels. A small recording icon in the searches would be OK, I suppose.


You're the only one that finds the guide a bad idea. The guide IS the interface to people's channels.

I think I recall some of posts from the past. It's obvious that you use your DVRs much differently then most people. Just because *you* think something is crap or that people use their entertainment device the "wrong way" doesn't make it true or correct.


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> Syzygy said:
> 
> 
> > • There are more ways to get to a list of upcoming showings than my TiVo allows.
> ...


It is too vague. Here's what I meant (talking about the benefits of the HR2x firmware):

• You can get to a list of upcoming showings directly from the detail screen of a show that has already been recorded. (Not possible on my TiVo.) This is useful for finding out if you can schedule another recording of a movie and then delete the already-recorded showing to make space available.

Also true (but I forgot to mention it):

• You can set up a Series Link (season pass) directly from the detail screen of a serial show that has already been recorded. (Also not possible on my TiVo.)

_P.S.
I've edited my original list to say:_
• Series Options and View Upcoming are available directly from the detail screen of a show that has already been recorded.


----------



## cthomp21 (Jul 15, 2007)

Oh geez! Who care about the HR2X's anyways?!?!

This thread is entitled "Questions about the new 2010 Tivo boxes..."

If you want to debate the pros/cons of the HR2X/HR10-250, IT'S BEEN DONE!!! ABOUT 1 MILLION TIMES!!! It's like debating which is better: chocolate or vanilla. IT'S A FRIGGIN' OPINION!!!

Now, if you'd like to speculate on the new HD Tivo... What have ya got?


----------



## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

cthomp21 said:


> Oh geez! Who care about the HR2X's anyways?!?!
> 
> This thread is entitled "Questions about the new 2010 Tivo boxes..."
> 
> ...


+1


----------



## Rainy Dave (Nov 11, 2001)

cthomp21 said:


> Oh geez! Who care about the HR2X's anyways?!?!
> 
> This thread is entitled "Questions about the new 2010 Tivo boxes..."
> 
> ...


+2


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shibby191 said:


> What does watching Live TV have anything to do with this? Either in the guide or in a search results screen it's one touch record so just hitting the record button is all you have to do to record something. I think you're confused on the feature.


Ah, yes, I was. Thanks for explaining it. It's a two edged sword, but if I now understand the feature properly, then yes, it's rather nice, provided of course it is no more difficult to go into the more extended recording features. This should be easily implemented by pressing <Record> instead of to instantly record the first showing with default recording parameters, and using to go into the extended recording menu. Do I have it right?



shibby191 said:


> Ummm, why is that? This was probably the most requested feature for Tivo for many years.


Yes, I know it has been requested many times, but virtually never by anyone who understands how the TiVo works.



shibby191 said:


> It's very useful because it tells you when you need to start clearing off programs to make space.


With a TiVo, one never, ever needs to do this, unless the hard drive is too small. In that case, get a larger hard drive, and the problem disappears forever. Most medium sized families are probably well served with 500G of recording space. I have a minimum of 1T of space on all my systems because drives are cheap, and I record a lot more than most.



shibby191 said:


> Just the other day I saw our main DVR was down to 10% free and asked the wife to please clear off some of the 50 CSI reruns she had on there. Now we're back to 70% free. Good times.


No, bad times. It means 70% of the space on your DVR is completely wasted. Any unused space on a DVR is just wasted money. It provides the user with nothing of value, and deprives the user of what might otherwise be of some value. Fortunately the TiVo has the ability to keep the hard drive continuously full (well nearly so), which is the only efficient and effective use of a DVR. If your DVR were a TiVo, then there was no need for your wife to do anythng. Any DVR which does not properly manage its content to keep it full without the user's intervention is a hunk of junk. Any DVR which does do a proper job of keeping the drive(s) full always shows the same thing: 0% free. There are 3rd party utilities out there that show the space on a TiVo, but they are useless, because it is always zero, or very nearly so.

Unless it has too small a hard drive subsystem, with a proper DVR there is never any reason to clear out anything in a batch effort. One only needs to delete any program after one no longer wants to watch it for maximum efficiency, or else just let the TiVo do it.



shibby191 said:


> Ahhh yes, the *second* most requested feature for Tivo over the years. I personally don't need it but it's something many people do want. Just because you or I find it useless doesn't mean that millions of others don't.


This is an opinion thread in an opinion forum. I'm giving my opinion. BTW, caller ID is available for S3 class TiVos, but not an unmodified one. Since all of my TiVos are modified, it would be easy to add this "feature" to any of my TiVos. If anyone makes a move to add this to any of my TiVos, however, I will hit them with a baseball bat.

It also is not the second most requested feature, but admittedly it is in the top ten. Regardless, there are very few features I want LESS than this one.



shibby191 said:


> You're obviously not in tune with the wants of the general public.


The general public was also foolish enough to buy pet rocks. They also have been foolish enough to buy or want to buy an iPhone.



shibby191 said:


> This was a highly requested feature for the DirecTV DVR and DirecTV actually came thru and granted it. It actually makes searching much faster then using the arrow keys to go from letter to letter. I personally didn't see the big deal of this one until I first tried it.


Wishlists must employ text entry, but then I generally input less than 1 wishlist a month. None of the other searches I use require any text. Regardless, it is still a vomitous idea. It requires one to try to find the number keys on the unit, and that is unacceptable. Double letters are a pain, and so are spaces. Text entry on the TiVo is case insensitive, so that helps, but it's still a lousy idea. For the major features of the device, one should never have to take one's fingers off the navigation buttons.



shibby191 said:


> You're the only one that finds the guide a bad idea.


No, I'm not, but it wouldn't matter if I were. The quality of an idea is not well measured by the number of people who agree with it.



shibby191 said:


> The guide IS the interface to people's channels.


Only if you don't mind wasting horrendous amounts of time. First of all, one of the very most important features of the TiVo is it completely eliminates the need to think in terms of "channels", or of "time". My TiVos do not have any "channels" at all. They have several thousand programs in the NPL available at all times, plus nearly 2 million broadcast programs every year from which the Tivo, with a small amount of input from me, selects 3000 or so to record.

I did some testing a while back, and it turns out a less than avid TV watcher can waste more than *3 years* of his life trying to search through a guide. It's a massive, useless waste of time that results in huge numbers of missed programs and endless fiddling. My CATV provider has about 300 or so channels excluding VOD and IPPV. Those 300 channels provide some 35,000 or more programs every week. Most of those are of no interest to me whatsoever, and the number of duplicates is very high. The TiVo searches through those and selects the ones I want without my ever turning on the TV. For "special" recordings (in my case mostly HD movies) I bring up a list of all relevant programs without knowing or caring when they will be on.

The guide also ties one to the TV schedule, which is inefficient and unnecessary. I could not possibly care less when a program comes on or on what channel, so why should I bother with a system that forces me to deal with it? It's a waste of time and mental resources. I record hundreds of programs a week, and I haven't once looked at a guide (other than for testing purposes) in almost 9 years.

It was a poor system devised when there were only 2 networks and neither one broadcast past 22:00. It was designed to be printed on paper. Well, guess what? It's over 60 years later, and now we have digital systems capable of searching, correlating, and filtering, doing in moments what it takes a human several minutes per day at the very least to do, with superior results.



shibby191 said:


> I think I recall some of posts from the past. It's obvious that you use your DVRs much differently then most people. Just because *you* think something is crap or that people use their entertainment device the "wrong way" doesn't make it true or correct.


I just think that anyone who wastes their time - very large amounts of it - just because they are used to using a VCR is... well... wasting their time. More importantly, don't expect me to be sanguine about TiVo expending resources in order to patch something that is inherently broken by design. Most importantly, don't expect me to remain silent when someone extols the virtues of something that is unnecessary in the extreme. If they did not exist, people would not use them, would they? Whether they liked it or not and whether they realized it or not, they would be better off, because they would be spending much less time trying to select shows to watch and much more time doing something else, while at the same time having more recordings available to watch, without having to deal with anywhere nearly as many uninteresting titles. Abandoning the guide is a win-win-win proposition for the user. The only down side is the user must deal with something new and different.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

cthomp21 said:


> Oh geez! Who care about the HR2X's anyways?!?!
> 
> This thread is entitled "Questions about the new 2010 Tivo boxes..."
> 
> ...


You're right. We got OT.

But if we hadn't have, this forum might have been shut down by now. It was once a very active place, but now looks about like downtown Detroit.

Like it or not, the only thing keeping this forum alive is _comparisons to what actually exists._ Useless speculation about vaporware we may never even see doesn't really do anything useful for anyone.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> ...The general public was also foolish enough to buy pet rocks. They also have been foolish enough to buy or want to buy an iPhone...


OK, hold the phone (pun intended). This might be a bad example. I don't have, and don't want an iPhone. But there is no denying that it singularly revolutionized the wireless industry, and has been a resounding success. Even though _iFart _is probably the most useful app of the bunch, it's hardly foolish to have a cutting-edge device as elegant and handy as the iPhone. Give Steve his props, new liver and all.

Now the idiot at the head of the line on launch day pictured carrying two $600 8-GB iPhones out of the Apple store (which he could have got for half that a few weeks later), there's the fool.


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

TyroneShoes said:


> Now the idiot at the head of the line on launch day pictured carrying two $600 8-GB iPhones out of the Apple store (which he could have got for half that a few weeks later), there's the fool.


Not if he bought them to sell on e-bay next day for twice as much to even bigger idiot.


----------



## cthomp21 (Jul 15, 2007)

codespy said:


> And the new TiVo will be a dedicated receiver not a software download to the HR20 family of receivers.


Any source to this? Have you been selected as a beta tester?


----------



## Syzygy (Aug 17, 2000)

What do you expect for an answer? _"(averts eyes) Um..."_


----------



## cthomp21 (Jul 15, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> What do you expect for an answer? _"(averts eyes) Um..."_


Silence is an answer...

An e-mail went out a few weeks ago regarding updating your info if you've signed up to be a beta tester with Tivo. There were quite a few items regarding D* and HD.

Hmmm....

Put 2 and 2 together, and I suspect beta testing is currently in progress.


----------



## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

cthomp21 said:


> Any source to this? Have you been selected as a beta tester?


Well that would break rule #1 for a beta-tester....._Rule #1- Do not let anyone else know you are a beta-tester for this product._ 

And I will name the source when I get permission to name the source.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

In the last two years no one from Directv or Tivo has ever suggested that it would be a download to the current DVR's. Not sure you need to be a beta tester to guess that it won't be.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

samo said:


> Not if he bought them to sell on e-bay next day for twice as much to even bigger idiot.


I can honestly say I love my iPhone. It's the first phone I have ever loved. It's also the first thing I have ever bought from Apple since the Apple IIe.


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

HiDefGator said:


> I can honestly say I love my iPhone. It's the first phone I have ever loved. It's also the first thing I have ever bought from Apple since the Apple IIe.


But I hope you didn't pay double the price to get it on a e-bay first week it was released. I was referring to the people who did in my previous post.


----------



## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> I can honestly say I love my iPhone. It's the first phone I have ever loved. It's also the first thing I have ever bought from Apple since the Apple IIe.


That CPU rocked in 1984. We still have it in the original box in storage with the 128K extended 80 column card, dual disk drive and panasonic dot matrix printer! We'd probably still use it but we can't find any printer ribbons for it anymore.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

samo said:


> But I hope you didn't pay double the price to get it on a e-bay first week it was released. I was referring to the people who did in my previous post.


No but I did pay $1250 for one of the very first HR10-250's to come off the line. In hindsight that was equally dumb. But it was way cool at the time recording HD before anyone else could.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

lvthunder said:


> You'd probably have to wait for CES in January.


do not expect them to be there with it, but they could be.

The claim was made by the poster that it was going to be a dedicated unit, asking for backup documention on the claim, other then that it is blue smoke and mirrors and vaporware with no validateable proof


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

codespy said:


> Well that would break rule #1 for a beta-tester....._Rule #1- Do not let anyone else know you are a beta-tester for this product._
> 
> And I will name the source when I get permission to name the source.


If the comment is "true" you already broke by making the comment and identified yourself as being a member of the supposed beta tester with a signed NDA, blue smoke and mirrors


----------



## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

sjberra said:


> ...............The claim was made by the poster that it was going to be a dedicated unit, asking for backup documention on the claim, other then that it is blue smoke and mirrors and vaporware with no validateable proof


You may or may not be right, and once the blue smoke lifted I remembered this post:



sjberra said:


> Don;think it is going to be a interface on the HR2X series, if you read the press release it states they are continuing their line of equipment and that the new TIVO box will be an alternate available to end users as a choice, it goes on to state that the pricing structure has not been determined as of yet.


There are a few others on this site I will not name that have access to the new information too. In the future, I should just choose not to post, and if I do I would not post info I got from my brothers cousins friends sister in law, especially on a such a sensitive topic.

I was doing this for the benefit of some people who still have interest in TiVo, without overstepping my bounds. You do not appear to be one of them. I personally like options from both types of machines and use both to this day.



sjberra said:


> If the comment is "true" you already broke by making the comment and identified yourself as being a member of the supposed beta tester with a signed NDA, blue smoke and mirrors


BTW, you took the bait on the beta-tester comment.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

codespy said:


> You may or may not be right, and once the blue smoke lifted I remembered this post:
> 
> There are a few others on this site I will not name that have access to the new information too. In the future, I should just choose not to post, and if I do I would not post info I got from my brothers cousins friends sister in law, especially on a such a sensitive topic.
> 
> ...


So it is the same with the comment you made - "And the new TiVo will be a dedicated receiver not a software download to the HR20 family of receivers."

Until there is validated proof, any comments are nothing but blue smoke and mirrors. Sorry do not believe anything that is "leaked" about items like this, "leaks" are a perfect tool of the sales weasels and financial people of the companies that are attempting to increase their market share, profit margin and stock prices.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

sjberra said:


> ...Sorry do not believe anything that is "leaked" about items like this, "leaks" are a perfect tool of the sales weasels and financial people of the companies that are attempting to increase their market share, profit margin and stock prices.


I think even those folks have learned that you can't lie that blatantly or keep folks from buying something else thinking what they really want is imminent (unless it really is). But its still just...(see below)



sjberra said:


> ...Until there is validated proof, any comments are nothing but blue smoke and mirrors...


 Exactly. Smoke and mirrors. Which makes one wonder why this is even being discussed and why it supports an active 11-page thread, which is also about the only thread with any action around here.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> I think even those folks have learned that you can't lie that blatantly or keep folks from buying something else thinking what they really want is imminent (unless it really is). But its still just...(see below)
> 
> Exactly. Smoke and mirrors. Which makes one wonder why this is even being discussed and why it supports an active 11-page thread, which is also about the only thread with any action around here.


We must deal with different sales weasels then.

11 pages because it appears that everyone loves to speculate and drool over something that has no documentaed bases in fact - blue sky dreams and hopes


----------

