# How Long Before Tivo is Gone?



## Emacee (Dec 15, 2000)

When will On-Demand make Tivo and all DVRs obsolete? No "if" - WHEN.

Like the VCR before it, Tivo is transitional technology. It has a limited shelf-life. When will "the cloud" take over?

Tivo is costly between the price of the box and the cost of the subscription. Worst of all, it does not adapt to short-notice or no-notice schedule changes. Shows don't start or end on time and get clipped. With on-demand, that doesn't happen. 

Tivo has shown no interest in solving the problem. Their only interest is add-ons that mean money for them, not benefits to users. Corporate greed now reigns, not technology.

Tivo's streaming capabilities are inferior to Roku, to Chromecast, to Kindle and the rest. People have been asking for Amazon Prime on Tivo and have been ignored.

Tivo deserves to go belly up.


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

Emacee said:


> People have been asking for Amazon Prime on Tivo and have been ignored.


I suggest you check again. Tivo offers Amazon Prime now. I've been watching it on my Roamios for a couple weeks.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

The 'Cloud DVR' will replace Tivo WHEN high speed data (50Gbs or more) with no usage caps is available to 90+ percent of the US population at a cost lower than what is used now.

A LONG time if ever.

Do you feel better after your ill founded and inaccurate rant?


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

jcthorne said:


> A LONG time if ever.


+1. Sure, there are frustrations with TiVo. I just had a recording miss of Castle due to the 15 minute news break for the Ferguson announcement. This kind of miss is annoying, but not really that common. The much more common CBS Sunday kind of issue with sports overruns is well known and easily handled with padding the end of recordings by an hour or so.

In the past, I would just torrent the show and fire up pyTivo and be happy. It 'd take maybe 15 minutes to download the show. With the recent move to monitor torrenting by many of the major MSO's and send you "Shame on you" emails, I tend not to torrent much anymore. For this weeks Castle, I first defaulted to the WatchABC app on my iPad. Except TWC is not a partner to WatchABC, so I can't authenticate to ABC that I'm a paying cable customer. This forces me to wait 8 days after first air date.

I next opted to download the TWC TV app on iPad and see if I could get it that way. Sure enough, it was available as a 57 minute video, complete with all original commercials breaks from first airing, and with FF disabled. I had already watched the first 45 minutes of Castle, so I had to open the show on the iPad, mute it, and them throw it aside while I watched an entirely different 1-hr show on my TiVo. Only then could I finish Castle.

TiVo has annoyances, but On Demand for recently aired content is saddled with far more annoying and burdensome restrictions. I don't see those restrictions being lifted on ON Demand content ever.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

Emacee said:


> When will On-Demand make Tivo and all DVRs obsolete? No "if" - WHEN.
> 
> Like the VCR before it, Tivo is transitional technology. It has a limited shelf-life. When will "the cloud" take over?


Most technology has a limited life. So what? When was the last time you saw someone with a Walkman? So yes, the TiVo DVR as we know it today shall eventually pass too. That time however is still a bit away.



Emacee said:


> Tivo is costly between the price of the box and the cost of the subscription. Worst of all, it does not adapt to short-notice or no-notice schedule changes. Shows don't start or end on time and get clipped. With on-demand, that doesn't happen.
> 
> Tivo has shown no interest in solving the problem. Their only interest is add-ons that mean money for them, not benefits to users. Corporate greed now reigns, not technology.
> 
> ...


Does TiVo have some shortcomings? Yes? Is it still a better solution for what it does then anything else out there? Yes.

I gladly purchased my Roamio with lifetime. I think it was priced fairly. It will never be a solution for everybody, but there are many of us who are quite happy with it and disagree with your premise that TiVo deserves to go belly up.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Emacee said:


> Tivo is costly between the price of the box and the cost of the subscription. Worst of all, it does not adapt to short-notice or no-notice schedule changes. Shows don't start or end on time and get clipped. With on-demand, that doesn't happen.
> 
> Tivo has shown no interest in solving the problem. Their only interest is add-ons that mean money for them, not benefits to users. Corporate greed now reigns, not technology.
> 
> ...


I've not read of any DVR's that adapt to short or no notice schedule changes and given the number of types of changes or interruptions there could be how would TiVo manage to get notification and update the DVRs? I recall when one of our staff sent IT a mail asking that they be notified ahead of time for unplanned outages. 

And they *deserve* to go belly up? That seems to be pretty strong feelings for something that no one does.

The biggest issue I see with streaming will be caps as jcthorne indicated.

Scott


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

While I use Comcast OnDemand, if it was the only thing I had it would force to me to:
1) watch commercials and anything else they want to do
2) wait for it to be available in OnDemand
3) 1 level of speed when skipping forward
4) be susceptible to internet latencies
5) not have access to other OnDemand content like Netflix/Prime
6) spend data towards my cap

That being said a lot of providers will be making stuff directly available and the world will probably get more expensive not less expensive as we start paying nickle and dime.


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

waynomo said:


> Most technology has a limited life. So what? When was the last time you saw someone with a Walkman?


Just watched Star Lord use one last night. He rocked it.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

At some point, Cable just gets to be too much. Too much of the same. Too much junk to look through to find something to watch. Too much Cost, too much pricing trickery and annoyance. At a certain point, it is just not worth it.

Time Warner paying $8 billion for the Dodgers and they make me pay for it ?

On Demand here was not all that good. After RV'ing/Camping for 2+ months I wanted to catch up on Orphan Black, but on Demand it was bad SD yuck. I could hardly watch it, it gave me a headache. And no first broadcast dates and inconsistent Season/Episode numbers, hard to catch up without them. And not everything is there, could not catch up on Grimm or Continuum.

I do prefer Netflix, no commercials. It is just a lot more pleasant viewing experience. And the price, well, it is quite a deal, I cannot imagine paying per episode or per season. Works fine, "720", with 3Mbps $15 Every Day Low Price Internet. 

So Tivo is doing exactly what I want, record Antenna tv. Between it and Netflix I am very happy.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

Charter has unlimited data now. so I have been watching a lot of shows on my roku3. I like cable but its almost all realty tv shows now so I don't watch it as much as I use to.

On my roku3 I can always finds something I like to watch on amazon prime, hulu+ and Netflix.



Emacee said:


> When will On-Demand make Tivo and all DVRs obsolete? No "if" - WHEN.
> 
> Like the VCR before it, Tivo is transitional technology. It has a limited shelf-life. When will "the cloud" take over?
> 
> ...


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Do you enjoy being forced to watch commercials? Because if everything goes to the cloud, rest assured that you will be forced to watch them regularly. When you have shows recorded locally on your own DVR, you are in control. When everything is stored on someone else's servers, they have control. This is why I still prefer to buy physical DVDs or Blurays (that will often come with a free digital copy).


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

waynomo said:


> Most technology has a limited life. So what? When was the last time you saw someone with a Walkman? So yes, the TiVo DVR as we know it today shall eventually pass too. That time however is still a bit away.


I still use a CD Walkman often but if you mean cassette, I don't recall seeing one of those in use in a long time. I have seen portable CD players in stores recently although I concede it is now a tiny niche product.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Emacee said:


> When will On-Demand make Tivo and all DVRs obsolete? No "if" - WHEN. Like the VCR before it, Tivo is transitional technology. It has a limited shelf-life. When will "the cloud" take over? Tivo is costly between the price of the box and the cost of the subscription. Worst of all, it does not adapt to short-notice or no-notice schedule changes. Shows don't start or end on time and get clipped. With on-demand, that doesn't happen. Tivo has shown no interest in solving the problem. Their only interest is add-ons that mean money for them, not benefits to users. Corporate greed now reigns, not technology. Tivo's streaming capabilities are inferior to Roku, to Chromecast, to Kindle and the rest. People have been asking for Amazon Prime on Tivo and have been ignored. Tivo deserves to go belly up.


I believe TiVo is already working on their own cloud DVR solution anyway, the "Helium DVR". It looks like they're attempting to adapt to the times at least.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Streaming is already replacing the DVR. But I think the two will co-exist for some time and more so on satellite as it is much more effective as a broadcast-technology if I remember right.

And personally I prefer the Tivo(dvr) experience because you can skip commercials and I like the responsiveness of ff/rw/slow-mo controls.

For something like HBO with no commercials streaming (on-demand) has almost no downsides.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

You've been a member of this forum for 14 years. Fourteen years!

And your post is asking when this technology will die.

Good one!


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## mike3775 (Jan 3, 2003)

I have been a member here since 2003(I admit I barely post much), but I have seen threads like this numerous times in 11 years. And guess what is still around?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Streaming is already replacing the DVR. But I think the two will co-exist for some time and more so on satellite as it is much more effective as a broadcast-technology if I remember right.
> 
> And personally I prefer the Tivo(dvr) experience because you can skip commercials and I like the responsiveness of ff/rw/slow-mo controls.
> 
> For something like HBO with no commercials streaming (on-demand) has almost no downsides.


Netflix streaming has both fast forward and rewind but using those functions is a pain compared to using both those functions on a TiVo recorded program. I like to skip the first 2 to 3 minutes of Netflix programing (like House of Cards) as I don't need to see the starting credits and if I am binge watching I don't need a recap of the last episode, easy to skip on a TiVo recorded program much harder using Netflix. Cloud service will not be much better than (if even a good as) the Netflix experience even without commercials, add in no commercials skip, the system would of minimum value, at least to me.
As a DVR the Roamio is as good a DVR as I would ever need, so I don't know what the future will be on any newer model TiVo DVR, I can't see why I would ever purchase a newer TiVo model, unless my mother board went up in smoke, there may, in the far future, be a better way to get TV programs than the Roamio (or any DVR), but I don't see (now) any big leap in technology that would replace the TiVo DVR that I would want or need. It has been over 400 years and the violin has not been replaced (yet).


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Do you enjoy being forced to watch commercials? Because if everything goes to the cloud, rest assured that you will be forced to watch them regularly. When you have shows recorded locally on your own DVR, you are in control. When everything is stored on someone else's servers, they have control. This is why I still prefer to buy physical DVDs or Blurays (that will often come with a free digital copy).


And it's exactly why I will be using a Tivo (or some other DVR) for many more years.

Be careful what you wish for with this 'everything's going to be in the cloud' future, because it's going to put all the control over what and how you watch back in the hands of the content owners. They want DVRs to go away.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

jth tv said:


> At some point, Cable just gets to be too much. Too much of the same. Too much junk to look through to find something to watch. Too much Cost, too much pricing trickery and annoyance. At a certain point, it is just not worth it.
> 
> Time Warner paying $8 billion for the Dodgers and they make me pay for it ?
> 
> ...


From whom are you getting that level of internet for that price?

And how many different choices of ISPs do you have in your neighborhood?


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

unitron said:


> From whom are you getting that level of internet for that price?
> 
> And how many different choices of ISPs do you have in your neighborhood?


Time Warner has upgraded to Maxx in Los Angeles, 3Mbps Everyday Low Price internet for $15/mth. That is the full retail price. I own the modem. There are no taxes, no fees. For my apartment, the only alternative is ATT at 0.8 Mbps.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

Why do you own a modem when cable gives a modem for free?



jth tv said:


> Time Warner has upgraded to Maxx in Los Angeles, 3Mbps Everyday Low Price internet for $15/mth. That is the full retail price. I own the modem. There are no taxes, no fees. For my apartment, the only alternative is ATT at 0.8 Mbps.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

tootal2 said:


> Why do you own a modem when cable gives a modem for free?


Time Warner Cable's modem rental fee is $6/month my friend.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Time Warner Cable's modem rental fee is $6/month my friend.


And Comcast is now $8/month (in CT at least)


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

tootal2 said:


> Why do you own a modem when cable gives a modem for free?


Nothing is free from a cableco. It is a cost they must recover, and many include line items for these services, such as a cable provided box or DVR.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Emacee said:


> When will On-Demand make Tivo and all DVRs obsolete? No "if" - WHEN.


"Never" would be a good guess. Some people will always distrust providers and will want some kind of local control/storage. They may someday be illegal, but DVRs in some form may be around for as long or longer than "On-Demand" as we know it.


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## singemfrc (Jun 24, 2011)

jcthorne said:


> The 'Cloud DVR' will replace Tivo WHEN high speed data (50Gbs or more) with no usage caps is available to 90+ percent of the US population at a cost lower than what is used now.
> 
> A LONG time if ever.
> 
> Do you feel better after your ill founded and inaccurate rant?


And also when the on demand content becomes all-inclusive, which currently it is not.
Another feature of on demand that, at least for me, has me still prefer TiVo is the advent of the mandatory commercials that cant be muted or skipped. (read: HULU) With TiVo not only can I obviously fast forward the commercials, I can copy the show to my PC and edit them out entirely. When on demand outlets start offering subscriptions that eliminate mandatory advertising, then I will consider it an option. Until then, I consider on demand only a backup to my TiVo.


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## NJ Webel (Dec 8, 2004)

astrohip said:


> Emacee said:
> 
> 
> > When will On-Demand make Tivo and all DVRs obsolete? No "if" - WHEN.
> ...


Lol!


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Emacee just loves throwing softballs just to see how many people he can get riled up..


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

tootal2 said:


> Why do you own a modem when cable gives a modem for free?


I purchased a Netgear Gateway CG3000D-RG for $27 shipped in June 2014 instead of paying $6 per month to TWC. The modem sells for lot more now. It has a name similar to an approved modem but it is not actually the same one. It did not self install but TWC activated it without complaint, it has wireless and 4 ports. It has worked perfectly, absolutely zero problems, knock on wood.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Emacee said:


> When will On-Demand make Tivo and all DVRs obsolete? No "if" - WHEN.


WHEN:
1) I can get _ALL_ CURRENT programming On Demand
2) I can get ALL programming WITHOUT commercials, included within my current subscription.
(i.e. not at the ridiculous per episode prices that the various current services cost)

BTW, I *DO* use current "On Demand" with forced commercials sometimes (and have defended it here somewhat). It *IS* a useful supplement to have.. I would not use it for ALL of my programming until the commercial free requirement happens (which will be never).

BTW II, I personally do not consider "product placement" the same as regular commercials, and it rarely bugs me. Heck, even in podcasts, when they do 'live' commercials, I keep listening. It's just canned commercials where I skip, just like I do on Tivo.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

It depends on what "TiVo is Gone" means, paraphrasing Bubba.

If you define TiVo to mean a device that time-shifts digital cable-delivered content, then my answer is "ten years".

However it's likely some kind of device branded as "TiVo" will exist for the indefinite future. Well-known brand names have a tendency to go on a long time, even after a complete change of company personnel and product line. Example brands that come to mind are Harmon Kardon and Emerson, which existed at least 70 years ago.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

dlfl said:


> ... Emerson, which existed at least 70 years ago.


Emerson's founder (named Emerson) first used the trade name over 100 years ago and the company was formally incorporated in 1915; sold a $3 record player. It's gone through bankruptcies, ownership and name changes; always "Emerson," but Emerson Phonograph, Emerson Radio, etc.

The Tivo name, as you indicate, is likely to be used for a very long time.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Wil said:


> Emerson's founder (named Emerson) first used the trade name over 100 years ago and the company was formally incorporated in 1915; sold a $3 record player. It's gone through bankruptcies, ownership and name changes; always "Emerson," but Emerson Phonograph, Emerson Radio, etc. The Tivo name, as you indicate, is likely to be used for a very long time.


And don't forget the ever popular Emerson, Lake & Palmer! 

I predict the TiVo name will morph into just an app on your Smart device, TV, streamer, etc., talking to the big mothership in the sky. This will be sooner rather than later me thinks.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Some form of hard-drive based DVR will exist as long as linear TV channels exist, and I think they will be around for a long, long time, even if VOD, including OTT SVOD, slowly takes more and more of the eyeball-hours out there.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Some form of hard-drive based DVR will exist as long as linear TV channels exist, and I think they will be around for a long, long time, even if VOD, including OTT SVOD, slowly takes more and more of the eyeball-hours out there.


Boy, do I ever want to agree with you, I hope your correct.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Things are not changing that quickly. 

I bought my first hard drive in 1984, 5 meg for $1000. A spinning drive sounded crazy then, sounds crazy now but I just put a 3TB one in a Roamio.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

jth tv said:


> Things are not changing that quickly.
> 
> I bought my first hard drive in 1984, 5 meg for $1000. A spinning drive sounded crazy then, sounds crazy now but I just put a 3TB one in a Roamio.


Is your second paragraph supposed to be supporting the first? To me it seems to be contradict it.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

ej42137 said:


> Is your second paragraph supposed to be supporting the first? To me it seems to be contradict it.


Please explain.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

ej42137 said:


> Is your second paragraph supposed to be supporting the first? To me it seems to be contradict it.


I think they were saying that the basic technology is the same, even if it is much more efficient. It is still a spinning platter with magnetic heads for reading and writing, etc.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ncted said:


> I think they were saying that the basic technology is the same, even if it is much more efficient. It is still a spinning platter with magnetic heads for reading and writing, etc.


Who would though that the lead acid battery would be still be in use today, after more than 100 years !!!


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## jcmeyer5 (Sep 16, 2011)

My uncle told me back in 1985 that I would never drive a car that runs on gasoline...

If you think about it, the HDD is just an evolution of the record player... albeit much more sophisticated.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jcmeyer5 said:


> My uncle told me back in 1985 that I would never drive a car that runs on gasoline...
> 
> If you think about it, the HDD is just an evolution of the record player... albeit much more sophisticated.


The HDD is more an evolution of the wire recorder, punch tape, magnetic tape, VCR ( an evolution of magnetic tape itself), as most people never recorded on any record player.
My co.s first computer backup (computer from DEC) used punch tape from a teletype unit. (10 charters per second)


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> Boy, do I ever want to agree with you, I hope your correct.


I'm pretty sure I'm correct. Here's why. Comcast just spent likely a billion dollars or more on X1, which, at it's heart (in hardware anyway) is a DVR.

The big change that X1 brings around, however, is not any one single part of it, but rather that is takes the old model of taking a clunky cable box, stuffing some half-ass DVR capabilities in it, and then slapping a semi-functional VOD interface on top of that, and pushing it out the door, and moves to the new model of putting live TV, DVR, and their horrible VOD service on the same footing through a converged interface and user experience. So yes, it is in line with the trends away from live TV viewing and towards on demand viewing, but in the same sense, it solidifies that part of the on demand viewing is going to be the local DVR functionality, and it's going to be on an equal footing with live TV and VOD. Of course there is no OTT SVOD, since that competes with Comcast, so it's not as converged as TiVo, although TiVo is a DVR first, and a cable box, MSO VOD, and OTT SVOD box second, partly the polar opposite of the original cable company model of cable box first, and DVR second.


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## Crazy Newt (Jul 15, 2014)

I record shows mostly for the option to skip commercials, which allows me to make better use of my time. There will always be a demand to skip annoying commercials. Where there is a demand, money can be made. Money, it's a hit.


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## jcmeyer5 (Sep 16, 2011)

lessd said:


> The HDD is more an evolution of the wire recorder, punch tape, magnetic tape, VCR ( an evolution of magnetic tape itself), as most people never recorded on any record player.
> My co.s first computer backup (computer from DEC) used punch tape from a teletype unit. (10 charters per second)


You could record to an "album" way back when. But I was more referencing the physical setup as a parallel with the record player than I was the science of it.

Sheesh... Sorry Mr. Wizard!


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

jth tv said:


> Please explain.


Paragraph #1 says things are not changing very fast.

Paragraph #2 references the evolution of the spinning hard drive, which has seen rapid and constant change ever since it was introduced. And which is even now becoming obsoleted by the SSD. It is an archetype of rapid technological change, and suggests things _are_ changing rapidly.

I know this is not as fun as purposefully misinterpreting the sense of one's use of the term "component video" as others have done in other threads, but I was curious as to whether I had somehow missed the point you were trying to make. If it turns out I am just picking nits, please accept my apology for contributing to the background noise.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm correct. Here's why. Comcast just spent likely a billion dollars or more on X1, which, at it's heart (in hardware anyway) is a DVR.
> 
> The big change that X1 brings around, however, is not any one single part of it, but rather that is takes the old model of taking a clunky cable box, stuffing some half-ass DVR capabilities in it, and then slapping a semi-functional VOD interface on top of that, and pushing it out the door, and moves to the new model of putting live TV, DVR, and their horrible VOD service on the same footing through a converged interface and user experience. So yes, it is in line with the trends away from live TV viewing and towards on demand viewing, but in the same sense, it solidifies that part of the on demand viewing is going to be the local DVR functionality, and it's going to be on an equal footing with live TV and VOD. Of course there is no OTT SVOD, since that competes with Comcast, so it's not as converged as TiVo, although TiVo is a DVR first, and a cable box, MSO VOD, and OTT SVOD box second, partly the polar opposite of the original cable company model of cable box first, and DVR second.


That X1 sucks. WAs visiting my parents for Turkey Day and that's what they had. That thing is a dog. The list of recordings was very generic looking too. It looked like a list on a computer screen from the 80s. Guide wasn't responsive. I didn't find any redeeming qualities.

And that was on what I think was the main unit.

4 tuners on it I think, but you can still watch live shows if recording 4 programs. Probably all over something equivalent to internet streaming I assume.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> That X1 sucks. WAs visiting my parents for Turkey Day and that's what they had. That thing is a dog. The list of recordings was very generic looking too. It looked like a list on a computer screen from the 80s. Guide wasn't responsive. I didn't find any redeeming qualities.
> 
> And that was on what I think was the main unit.
> 
> 4 tuners on it I think, but you can still watch live shows if recording 4 programs. Probably all over something equivalent to internet streaming I assume.


I didn't say it didn't suck, I just said they sold a ton of them and put a ton of money into them. It has 6 physical QAM tuners, 1 is not active on the box (maybe used for live mobile device streaming), 4 record TV shows, and 1 is for live TV/VOD. The small boxes also have a local QAM tuner for live TV/VOD, and tap into the main box via MoCA for DVR recordings.

In hardware, it's like a 6-tuner Roamio with 1 tuner for live, 1 tuner for the Stream, and crappy software.

Even their supposed "cloud DVR" really isn't, I was trying to figure out how they were making it work, and the local DVR functionality is still local as far as I can tell.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> I didn't say it didn't suck, I just said they sold a ton of them and put a ton of money into them. It has 6 physical QAM tuners, 1 is not active on the box (maybe used for live mobile device streaming), 4 record TV shows, and 1 is for live TV/VOD. The small boxes also have a local QAM tuner for live TV/VOD, and tap into the main box via MoCA for DVR recordings.
> 
> In hardware, it's like a 6-tuner Roamio with 1 tuner for live, 1 tuner for the Stream, and crappy software.
> 
> Even their supposed "cloud DVR" really isn't, I was trying to figure out how they were making it work, and the local DVR functionality is still local as far as I can tell.


Yeah I didn't say you said it didn't suck. 

I was just reporting on my few hours of using it while visiting the parents for Turkey day.

Anyway so that's how Comcast is doing it. Reserving tuners and have a tuner in each extender. I guess that gives 'em an advantage in live tuners while recording 4 shows in a 3+ tv household.

Oh more on my experience.... No 30 second skip/scan. The guide was a dog and it showed 5 channels per page. The recording list was white letters on a black background. Plain as can be. It was like a monochrome monitor from the 80s.


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## dochawk (Aug 1, 2002)

lessd said:


> The HDD is more an evolution of the wire recorder,


Hey, I actually _own_ one of those.

A cassette model, at that.

Of course, the cassette weighs five or ten pounds itself (steel case), and my second cassette is missing pieces and has a broken wire, but . . .

I have delusions that someday I will fix it . . . (by then, finding the tubes it needs may be difficult . . .)

hawk


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## dochawk (Aug 1, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> The recording list was white letters on a black background. Plain as can be. It was like a monochrome monitor from the 80s.


Now, now.

Very few of us still used white on black monitors in the 80s.

Most of us had green on black, and a few had amber on black.

Green was the best, though.

hawk


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

dochawk said:


> Now, now.
> 
> Very few of us still used white on black monitors in the 80s.
> 
> ...


Yep green and amber. That's why I said like the monochrome monitors in the 80s.

But my better analogy is DOS. The recording list looked like a directory listing at a DOS prompt.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah I didn't say you said it didn't suck.
> 
> I was just reporting on my few hours of using it while visiting the parents for Turkey day.
> 
> ...


It's idiot-proofing for the average dumb consumer who can't understand the concept of "I can't watch live TV because I'm using all 6 tuners for recording stuff". It's a smart move on Comcast's part to reduce support calls from stupid customers, but I'd much rather have the Roamio Pro's flexibility of an open pool of 6 tuners. The only reason it makes sense for the TiVo Mini not to have a QAM tuner like the TiVo Preview is because it then requires a CableCard, which isn't an issue for X1, since Comcast owns the boxes.


----------



## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

waynomo said:


> Most technology has a limited life. So what?
> 
> When was the last time you saw someone with a Walkman?


Used mine on last Saturday to listen to AM radio... Ha!


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> The only reason it makes sense for the TiVo Mini not to have a QAM tuner like the TiVo Preview is because it then requires a CableCard, which isn't an issue for X1, since Comcast owns the boxes.


I don't know. I thought Comcast still had to abide by the cablecard requirement. I know there was a recent ruling eliminating the cable card requirement or something like that, but the X1 wasn't created in a day. IT was in development long before that ruling.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

trip1eX said:


> I don't know. I thought Comcast still had to abide by the cablecard requirement. I know there was a recent ruling eliminating the cable card requirement or something like that, but the X1 wasn't created in a day. IT was in development long before that ruling.


The point he's trying make is of cost and who bears it.

In a Tivo solution, a Mini with a tuner requires another CableCard, so the Tivo user needs to pay the CableCard fee, as well as an Additional Outlet charge since we're talking about Comcast. The tuner in the Mini ends up costing ~$10+

To Comcast, a secondary box with a Tuner for Live TV requires another CableCard, but that only costs ~$75 each, so the cost is minimal in the long term.

The Tivo user is paying another $10+ forever, Comcast pays a minimum up-front cost and gets to bill the customer another monthly fee forever to use that box.


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## johndierks (Sep 5, 2002)

I think the reality is that none of us know, but I do think that whatever replace the DVR will arrive and quickly supplant it almost immediately. In technology, it's seldomly a gradual phase out of one technology into another.

A disruptive business or technology will come along and change the game quickly.

The successor of the DVR as we know it will combine a device, service, and business model, all in one nice little package that will make people know they want to ditch everything.

I see it this way. As soon as a streaming service comes along that engages users to pay for the stuff they want to watch in seamless, reliable, and ala cart fashion, people will rapidly cut cable and move to that.

Don't get me wrong, a product like that is a tall order, and may be years away, but once it happens, the dominos will fall quickly and the existing cable/dvr paradigm will collapse.


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## johndierks (Sep 5, 2002)

If I were CEO of Tivo, I would hire a team of the best and the brightest from outside Tivo, build them an office across town, with $10M/year and zero oversight. I'd hand them the keys and leave them with one instruction:

"Build a product that will put Tivo out of business."


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## johndierks (Sep 5, 2002)

Happened to see this go by this morning: http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2014/12/8/7354405/goodbye-tivo


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

johndierks said:


> I think the reality is that none of us know, but I do think that whatever replace the DVR will arrive and quickly supplant it almost immediately. In technology, it's seldomly a gradual phase out of one technology into another.
> 
> A disruptive business or technology will come along and change the game quickly.
> 
> ...


Its all about the content and disruption wont happen until the content providers allow it. Apple has new technology that's been sitting there because they cant seem to crack it yet.

The other thing is once they do sell direct we dont know what our bill total will be. I don't see it being any cheaper. In fact with Netflix/Amazon/Youtube and more generating content its going to be more difficult to get it all.

I think the the explosion of content providers will be the real disruption coming.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

johndierks said:


> Happened to see this go by this morning: http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2014/12/8/7354405/goodbye-tivo


That guy is just mad at TiVo for sending him to a collection agency. He had a Roamio Plus and traded in for a TWC DVR that cost more, has 2 tuners, & and is as basic as it gets. If he wants to rent a basic DVR it is his business but indicating the TWC DVR is even remotely as advanced as a Roamio Plus is an out right lie.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

johndierks said:


> I think the reality is that none of us know, but I do think that whatever replace the DVR will arrive and quickly supplant it almost immediately. In technology, it's seldomly a gradual phase out of one technology into another.
> 
> A disruptive business or technology will come along and change the game quickly.
> 
> ...





johndierks said:


> If I were CEO of Tivo, I would hire a team of the best and the brightest from outside Tivo, build them an office across town, with $10M/year and zero oversight. I'd hand them the keys and leave them with one instruction:
> 
> "Build a product that will put Tivo out of business."


The chances of TiVo being able to change how video is delivered (from OTA, Cable, etc. to streaming. Ala-cart, etc.) is *ZERO*. Apple has been trying for years and they have nearly unlimited funds and are 1000 times more powerful and haven't been able to do it.

I believe the delivery systems will change (actually it is in the process of changing now think HBO, CBS, etc.) but it will be the content providers and/or the cable/satellite companies that bring in/allow the change.

There maybe some opportunity for innovative hardware/software but only what the content providers allow. There may come a time when we don't need/want a DVR but we are going to want what a TiVo does which is allow time & place shifting and commercial skipping, which we can do now if you have access to very good Internet and are willing to spend lots money for several services and Ala-cart programing.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

"TiVo hasn't innovated enough" is a pretty weak complaint when you admit that neither has the competition.

Yeah, Tivo has us by the nards because there's nothing better out there. We get it. but TiVo still has us by the nards. It's not like there's someone else out there doing better. It's a bunch of companies all making stale DVRs that are 90% the same as they were 10 years ago. But TiVo's is still better than everyone else's, so here we are.

The DVR industry reminds me of the industrial automation industry. SOOOOOOOOOOO SLOOOOOOOW.

In a way, they both have the same reason for it. Because reliability is more important than innovation.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

johndierks said:


> If I were CEO of Tivo, I would hire a team of the best and the brightest from outside Tivo, build them an office across town, with $10M/year and zero oversight. I'd hand them the keys and leave them with one instruction:
> 
> "Build a product that will put Tivo out of business."


It's funny because a former CEO of TiVo did this. And guess how it is turning out?

(hint: it's not).


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## johndierks (Sep 5, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> It's funny because a former CEO of TiVo did this. And guess how it is turning out?
> 
> (hint: it's not).


That's fine. There's certainly no guarantee they'll discover what's next, even after investing the time/effort/cash in finding what's next.

I think none of us will be surprised when Tivo goes under, Tivo boxes are no longer gets produced and the Tivo brand is slapped on some service created by another company that buys Tivo for pennies as it circles the drain.

If things go poorly, that's business. But at least you got to go down fighting, and Tivo does not seem to be.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

The stories today are driving me nuts, since they are all calling it the death of CableCard, when the CableCard requirement lives on, it's just the integrated security ban that won't, which was stupid from day 1.



trip1eX said:


> I don't know. I thought Comcast still had to abide by the cablecard requirement. I know there was a recent ruling eliminating the cable card requirement or something like that, but the X1 wasn't created in a day. IT was in development long before that ruling.


They don't charge themselves $7/mo for CableCards!



johndierks said:


> I think the reality is that none of us know, but I do think that whatever replace the DVR will arrive and quickly supplant it almost immediately. In technology, it's seldomly a gradual phase out of one technology into another.


No. There are billions upon billions of dollars at stake, and the content providers have dug their heels in, locking sports on cable. Linear TV is going to be around for a very long time, OTT-SVOD will continue to grow, and things will continue to very, very slowly change. There are still millions of POTS lines and tons of T1's and Windows XP machines and people using DVD players and standard def TVs and all sorts of other supposedly obsolete technologies. Those things are all in decline, but are all going to hold on for many, many years in to the future.


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## johndierks (Sep 5, 2002)

I agree. I overspoke in my previous post. Cable/DVRs/etc will not disappear immediately. But I see the transition to look like POTS -> cellphones. POTS was a dominant technology for 75 years and within 5-8 year (starting in early 2000's) everyone went from not owning a cell phone to owning one.

For cable/dvr, in POTS terms, it's still 2004 or 2005. When a better option comes along, it'll be 2010 real quick.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

johndierks said:


> That's fine. There's certainly no guarantee they'll discover what's next, even after investing the time/effort/cash in finding what's next.
> 
> I think none of us will be surprised when Tivo goes under, Tivo boxes are no longer gets produced and the Tivo brand is slapped on some service created by another company that buys Tivo for pennies as it circles the drain.
> 
> If things go poorly, that's business. But at least you got to go down fighting, and Tivo does not seem to be.


Sounds to me like you are unhappy with TiVo for still building DVRs and want them to invent something else.

They build the best stand alone HD DVR system you or I can buy and their overall DVR business is growing. In the nine years I have owned TiVos they have gone from a single tuner SD DVR using dial up with an 80 Mb hard drive to an 6 tuner HD 3TB DVR/min system with Internet streaming abilities that can stream to phones/tablets both inside and outside of ones home. As with all devices I am sure it could be better but I really don't see how you can say they haven't been innovating when it comes to an actual DVR.

So I am back to my first thought - you really don't want a better DVR. I am guessing you either want a device that has more non-DVR functionality and/or you want someone to figure out how to replace the current cable/satellite/OTA delivery systems. Not sure why you or anyone would think TiVo can replace the current video delivery systems, after all they didn't invent the cable, satellite, or OTA delivery systems they just developed a device that enhanced the user expense of those existing systems. Regarding TiVo building devices that are more than a DVR they certainly could build devices with more/better streaming abilities or maybe add in blu-ray disk play back, or even gaming abilities but honestly I am not sure going much past what the Roamios can already do would be cost effective.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> They don't charge themselves $7/mo for CableCards!


Tivo doesn't get charged $7/mo either for a cablecard. I'm not really following your point.

What's the difference to the consumer between a Mini with a tuner and monthly cablecard fee and paying a monthly fee for your X1 extender with a cablecard? I doubt Comcast's option would be cheaper over the long run.

I mean we all have Tivo with cablecards and have to pay the cable card fee and we still do so even though Comcast doesn't have to pay themselves $7/mo for a cablecard. And we still come out ahead in the long run and get the nicer dvr.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> "TiVo hasn't innovated enough" is a pretty weak complaint when you admit that neither has the competition.
> 
> Yeah, Tivo has us by the nards because there's nothing better out there. We get it. but TiVo still has us by the nards. It's not like there's someone else out there doing better. It's a bunch of companies all making stale DVRs that are 90% the same as they were 10 years ago. But TiVo's is still better than everyone else's, so here we are.
> 
> ...


IT's slow because all a dvr needs to do is record and playback cabletv. Tivo did that good enough over 10 years ago. What more do you want?

The only reason most of us have bought new Tivos is because of the move to HD and a desire for more tuners or so I suspect. I only gave up on my Series 2 because of that.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

johndierks said:


> If I were CEO of Tivo, I would hire a team of the best and the brightest from outside Tivo, build them an office across town, with $10M/year and zero oversight. I'd hand them the keys and leave them with one instruction:
> 
> "Build a product that will put Tivo out of business."


Then you wake up and the real world hits you in the head.


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## johndierks (Sep 5, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> So I am back to my first thought - you really don't want a better DVR.


You're right. I don't want a better DVR.

I want to get rid of of my cable company. I want to buy my shows without paying 10,000 other shows I don't watch. I want to watch what I want, when I want, and where I want.

I know this is a huge hard problem to solve. Perhaps bigger than Tivo can solve. But I want them to try.

Someone will solve this problem.

I love Tivo, which is why I want them to solve this problem. If Tivo can't solve it, I'm happy to go with whomever does, but I'll be sad that Tivo had such a huge head start on redefining tv, but only ever created one revolutionary product.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

johndierks said:


> You're right. I don't want a better DVR.
> 
> I want to get rid of of my cable company. I want to buy my shows without paying 10,000 other shows I don't watch. I want to watch what I want, when I want, and where I want.
> 
> ...


The problem is already solved. Go to iTunes or Amazon and buy your shows.

Oh wait. You also want to pay what you want. I don't think they will solve that problem.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> The problem is already solved. Go to iTunes or Amazon and buy your shows.
> 
> Oh wait. You also want to pay what you want. I don't think they will solve that problem.


That is going to be 1) very expensive and 2) reduce a lot of fun content that doesn't make significant profit.


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## johndierks (Sep 5, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Oh wait. You also want to pay what you want. I don't think they will solve that problem.


I'm happy to pay a lot. I already pay more to streaming services than I do to cable, but the options aren't there. Most sports are blacked out under any kind of streaming. Movies are only rentable for 30 days. Shows come out on tivo before they're available otherwise. It's too much of a mess to totally cut the cord.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

johndierks said:


> I'm happy to pay a lot. I already pay more to streaming services than I do to cable, but the options aren't there. Most sports are blacked out under any kind of streaming. Movies are only rentable for 30 days. Shows come out on tivo before they're available otherwise. It's too much of a mess to totally cut the cord.


Well what's wrong with cable or satellite if you are willing to pay more and you want sports and want shows earlier than streaming?!?!??!


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

johndierks said:


> You're right. I don't want a better DVR.
> 
> I want to get rid of of my cable company. I want to buy my shows without paying 10,000 other shows I don't watch. I want to watch what I want, when I want, and where I want.
> 
> ...


IP delivery (streaming) is here the question becomes does it replace any of the other delivery systems or is it another add on. My guess is that it will be an add on not a replacement. So going forward we will have OTA, Cable, Satellite, IP delivery (streaming), & solid media providing video content (along with Movie theaters etc.). Some content will be available via multiple delivery systems and some will be exclusive. This gives consumers lots of choice but also complicates it extensively.

Because of closed systems and copy right laws how we access some systems will be controlled by the companies delivering the video and the content providers will have some control over all of them.

Right now TiVo DVRs gives users much more control over the OTA & Cable delivery systems than one would have without a TiVo DVR, but we are still stuck with restrictions imposed by the content providers - example being you can not copy lots of content to a phone/tablet/computer for off line consumption.

It would be great if someone could provide a device that could short through all of this and provide any/all video we want when and where we want it - that is the nut Apple has been trying to crack, but to many companies want to control their little piece of the video pie and I find it unlikely anyone is going to give us what we want.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

johndierks said:


> I see it this way. As soon as a streaming service comes along that engages users to pay for the stuff they want to watch in seamless, reliable, and ala cart fashion, people will rapidly cut cable and move to that.


Except there's a couple of big problems with that: data caps that are already being imposed due to lack of meaningful HSI competition, and unskippable commercials plus limited viewing windows for streaming.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

johndierks said:


> Happened to see this go by this morning: http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2014/12/8/7354405/goodbye-tivo


So the author gets a little butt-hurt about a minor billing snafu, then tosses a perfectly good Roamio to the curb in exchange for TWCs craptacular DVR?

You just can't make this stuff up. He and Jed1 need to get together and compare notes.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

johndierks said:


> I agree. I overspoke in my previous post. Cable/DVRs/etc will not disappear immediately. But I see the transition to look like POTS -> cellphones. POTS was a dominant technology for 75 years and within 5-8 year (starting in early 2000's) everyone went from not owning a cell phone to owning one.
> 
> For cable/dvr, in POTS terms, it's still 2004 or 2005. When a better option comes along, it'll be 2010 real quick.


It is now almost 2015 and 60% of US households still have a landline phone. So, while something new may become the "next big thing," we can expect linear broadcasting (and DVR technology to record it) to be around for a LONG time yet.

IMHO, the thing that TiVo might be well positioned to do is to solve the problem of finding content on OTT services. All the major services have thousands and thousands of titles available, but unless you know the name of what you want to see, finding something you like can be daunting (we have spent more time searching Netflix or Amazon than watching their programming). A comprehensive directory of content organized by genre, with "if you like" links that span across services would be a welcome addition. TiVo already searches for titles across some OTT services, and can offer suggestions from them, but it is too limited today.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Diana Collins said:


> It is now almost 2015 and 60% of US households still have a landline phone. So, while something new may become the "next big thing," we can expect linear broadcasting (and DVR technology to record it) to be around for a LONG time yet.......


I'd venture a guess that a lot of those are customers with some sort of "triple play" package from their MSOs because they got a great deal for a period of time to do so, often cheaper than not having the phone plan, like I did and just sent the modem back. Or maybe a cheap VoIP plan as a cell backup.



Diana Collins said:


> .......IMHO, the thing that TiVo might be well positioned to do is to solve the problem of finding content on OTT services. All the major services have thousands and thousands of titles available, but unless you know the name of what you want to see, finding something you like can be daunting (we have spent more time searching Netflix or Amazon than watching their programming). A comprehensive directory of content organized by genre, with "if you like" links that span across services would be a welcome addition. TiVo already searches for titles across some OTT services, and can offer suggestions from them, but it is too limited today.


100% agreed, they're in a prime position to make this happen!


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Well they are finally killing off copper. Some good articles out there about it.

ATT & Verizon are lobbying states to do so.

"California, Florida, Texas, Georgia, North Carolina, Wisconsin and Ohio are among states that agree telecom resources would be better redirected into modern telephone technologies and innovations, and will kill copper-based technologies in the next three years or so.

Kentucky and Colorado are weighing similar laws, which force people to go wireless whether they want to or not."

Then there are articles about those folks who are pushing back on the change in various communities. Some diehards love the reliability and aren't going along with the plan to move to FIOS for phone service.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303325204579465321638954500

http://www.fiercetelecom.com/story/...ll-provide-better-phone-service-ex/2014-05-30

http://arstechnica.com/information-...ng-very-hard-to-force-fiber-on-its-customers/


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

johndierks said:


> I agree. I overspoke in my previous post. Cable/DVRs/etc will not disappear immediately. But I see the transition to look like POTS -> cellphones. POTS was a dominant technology for 75 years and within 5-8 year (starting in early 2000's) everyone went from not owning a cell phone to owning one.
> 
> For cable/dvr, in POTS terms, it's still 2004 or 2005. When a better option comes along, it'll be 2010 real quick.


I don't think so. There is no direct replacement, beacuse content is involved. If it was just the mechanics of a delivery mechanism, traditional TV would only be for live events, everything else would already be on Netflix. And the internet probably would have broken by now with the amount of traffic that would generate.



trip1eX said:


> Tivo doesn't get charged $7/mo either for a cablecard. I'm not really following your point.


OMG, are you serious? The customer has to pay the $7/mo. That's why the TiVo Preview isn't a practical consumer product, but works fine for RCN to deploy as an MSO.



> What's the difference to the consumer between a Mini with a tuner and monthly cablecard fee and paying a monthly fee for your X1 extender with a cablecard? I doubt Comcast's option would be cheaper over the long run.


You don't have to pay up front for the X1 box.



> I mean we all have Tivo with cablecards and have to pay the cable card fee and we still do so even though Comcast doesn't have to pay themselves $7/mo for a cablecard. And we still come out ahead in the long run and get the nicer dvr.


Part of the reason TiVo makes sense economically is because you can have 4 or 6 or more rooms running off of a single CableCard in a Roamio Pro. If you had to have a CableCard in each room, the economics of TiVo wouldn't work.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

I understand now that the sunset of the integration ban is in December 2015, one year after the law was signed.
This will effectively end the use of CableCards as the rules that supported CableCards was stripped away by the courts when they settled a lawsuit that Dish brought against the FCC. It is mentioned in this article and the FCC confirms what the decision means.
http://www.multichannel.com/news/policy/tivo-petitions-fcc-insure-consumer-access-its-dvr/262916
The last paragraph is interesting:


> At the Cable Show in Washington last month, FCC Media Bureau Chief Bill Lake said that one of the "sleeper" issues at the FCC, or more like one that had him tossing and turning in bed, *was where to go with navigation devices after the courts essentially threw out the CableCard rules while preserving the integration ban*. The question of what downloadable security should be included in navigation devices remains, he said.


How does TiVo now move forward from here? The work TiVo is doing with Comcast is only for Comcast and does not cover any other cable system.

Also Charter is doing their own thing as it is stated in the article:


> TiVo has also asked the commission to rethink its conditional waiver to Charter to supply set-tops with downloadable security, rather than the current CableCARD hardware fix. TiVo is concerned that Charter will no longer support its set-tops, which feature the CableCARD technology, and the ban will translate to a de facto green light for other operators to drop support of the CableCARD in favor of a downloadable security system that has not first been vetted in a separate proceeding.


Verizon Fios CableCard customers can easily be terminated as the boxes they currently use get their guide, VOD, PPV data with the downstream IP data. They only send the OOB messages with the linear cable channels. This is to comply with the separable security mandate. Once the mandate expires they can switch the OOB data over to the IP side, which their boxes support, and end the CableCard support on their systems.

My cable system already has plans to remove all older Motorola STBs that rely on the old encryption standard by the summer of 2015. They are going to be replaced with DTAs and HD DTAs, that were exempted from the integration ban, and use the RNG series which can bypass the CableCards if necessary.

I can not see how TiVo will stay in the retail side now if there is no guaranteed access to encrypted systems. 
In the next nine months, the FCC has to come up with a new downloadable security, get both cable and sat companies to agree with it, then get congress to pass the legislation, and have the president sign it into law.
http://www.multichannel.com/news/technology/wheeler-promises-speedy-resolution-set-top-fix/385833

I was looking at the amount of lobbying that went into getting the ban lifted. PACs like the Heartland Institute, Americans for Prosperity, the CATO institute, ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council), the Heritage Foundation, and of course the NCTA (The National Cable & Telecommunications Association).
The PACs angle was the government has no right telling a private business how it should operate. Some of the organizations are funded by the Koch brothers.
So the idea that the new republican controlled congress is going to enact any legislation about requiring new security standards on cable/sat. providers is highly unlikely.

2015 is going to be an interesting year and possibly a really disappointing year for us retail DVR users.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> OMG, are you serious? The customer has to pay the $7/mo. That's why the TiVo Preview isn't a practical consumer product, but works fine for RCN to deploy as an MSO.
> 
> Part of the reason TiVo makes sense economically is because you can have 4 or 6 or more rooms running off of a single CableCard in a Roamio Pro. If you had to have a CableCard in each room, the economics of TiVo wouldn't work.


You're assuming that the monthly fee for an X1 extender with a tuner would be less than a Tivo extender with a tuner and lifetime (plus cablecard fee) over 3 or 4 years.

I don't see any reason to assume that.

I do know that buying a Tivo with lifetime for only 1 room and renting a cablecard every month is still cheaper than renting a dvr from my cable company over 4 years even though the cable company doesn't have to charge itself a monthly cablecard rental fee.

I certainly wouldn't assume the total opposite would happen if Tivo came out with a 1 tuner Tivo extender and you compared the cost of that over 4 years vs the cost of a 1 tuner X1 extender.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Jed1 said:


> 2015 is going to be an interesting year and possibly a really disappointing year for us retail DVR users.


The first link is 1 1/2 yrs old. I'm digesting the 2nd.

I don't know. I'm more positive after reading the 2nd article than after reading your post. I mean we've got 2 senators asking for a new plan to create a competitive set top box market. The FCC chairman on record saying he will work on it and recognizing the deadline for getting it done.

It's not gospel, and the proof will be in the pudding, but I like what I hear.


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## johndierks (Sep 5, 2002)

I assume OTA DVRs will be immune to the Cable Card drama, is that correct?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

johndierks said:


> I assume OTA DVRs will be immune to the Cable Card drama, is that correct?


Technically the cable card issues do not affect people using TiVos for OTA. However without their retail cable business TiVo may not stay in the retail business, the OTA market just isn't big enough - at least at this point. I am not really worried in the short run (next few (3+/-) years) but after that if TiVo doesn't have access to cable on the retail side not sure if they would stay in the retail business with just OTA DVRs.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Technically the cable card issues do not affect people using TiVos for OTA. However without their retail cable business TiVo may not stay in the retail business, the OTA market just isn't big enough - at least at this point. I am not really worried in the short run (next few (3+/-) years) but after that if TiVo doesn't have access to cable on the retail side not sure if they would stay in the retail business with just OTA DVRs.


They would stay as long as it doesn't take much to make a Tivo cable box into an OTA box.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Jed1 said:


> I understand now that the sunset of the integration ban is in December 2015, one year after the law was signed.
> This will effectively end the use of CableCards as the rules that supported CableCards was stripped away by the courts when they settled a lawsuit that Dish brought against the FCC.


I don't believe that is the case. If cable companies were allowed to stop using retail CableCards, TWC and a couple of other bad players might already have done so.

For the foreseeable future, the CableCard law is staying around. What's going to end up happening is Comcast and TiVo will make the new downloadable security standard, and it will become federal law. That's fine, since Comcast will make it work, and make it easy to implement, and secure.



trip1eX said:


> You're assuming that the monthly fee for an X1 extender with a tuner would be less than a Tivo extender with a tuner and lifetime (plus cablecard fee) over 3 or 4 years.
> 
> I don't see any reason to assume that.


Right now, a TiVo Mini is $150, and an X1 extender is $10/mo, and a CableCard is $7/mo. So right now, to add a QAM tuner to the Mini, which doesn't really serve any good purpose, just ADDs $7/mo to the cost, and would make the break-even period 50 months. Right now, the break-even period is 15 months. And it's a poor use of a CableCard to feed a single tuner when you could feed 6 in a Roamio Plus/Pro. Why would you pay $7/mo EXTRA for a single tuner when you could get 6 extra tuners on a full-size TiVo box?



> I do know that buying a Tivo with lifetime for only 1 room and renting a cablecard every month is still cheaper than renting a dvr from my cable company over 4 years even though the cable company doesn't have to charge itself a monthly cablecard rental fee.


Yeah. And? What does that have to do with an extender or Mini?



> I certainly wouldn't assume the total opposite would happen if Tivo came out with a 1 tuner Tivo extender and you compared the cost of that over 4 years vs the cost of a 1 tuner X1 extender.


No, but it makes it a lot harder to justify, and doesn't serve any logical purpose. It's a lot better to just have the Minis borrow a tuner as needed from the host box.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

Emacee said:


> Like the VCR before it, Tivo is transitional technology. It has a limited shelf-life. When will "the cloud" take over?


I think a little history is in order. You are posing a question about technology, when it is really a legal question about copyright infringement.

The case against equipment that resides in the home is now airtight. In January 17, 1984 the Supreme Court's ruled 5-4 in the case of Sony v. Universal City Studios, involving the home use of video recorders and the federal copyright law. The court determined that the former did not infringe on the latter as long as the copied material was not used for profit.

In March 2006 Cablevision announced remote storage digital video recorder (RS-DVR). They felt that they were covered under the 1984 decision. Naturally Cablevision was sued by 20th Century Fox, Universal Studios, and Walt Disney. The content providers prevailed at the district court level, and Cablevision appealed. On August 5, 2008, the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, in Cartoon Network, LP v. CSC Holdings, Inc., reversed the lower court decision that found the use of RS-DVRs in violation of copyright law.Certain content providers began the process of appealing to the U.S. Supreme Court, seeking cert in late 2008. The Supreme Court delayed hearing the case and instead referred it to the United States Solicitor General's office for the federal government's opinion on the case. In June 2009 the US Supreme Court refused to hear a final appeal in the Cablevision remote DVR case, thereby bringing the litigation to a close.

This case was emboldened Aereo to develop their remote DVR and remote personal antenna system and sell it to the public. We all know that they lost in the supreme Court.

So the technology is not really the issue, but the legal framework is a problem.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> For the foreseeable future, the CableCard law is staying around. What's going to end up happening is Comcast and TiVo will make the new downloadable security standard, and it will become federal law. That's fine, since Comcast will make it work, and make it easy to implement, and secure.
> 
> Right now, a TiVo Mini is $150, and an X1 extender is $10/mo, and a CableCard is $7/mo. So right now, to add a QAM tuner to the Mini, which doesn't really serve any good purpose, just ADDs $7/mo to the cost, and would make the break-even period 50 months. Right now, the break-even period is 15 months. And it's a poor use of a CableCard to feed a single tuner when you could feed 6 in a Roamio Plus/Pro. Why would you pay $7/mo EXTRA for a single tuner when you could get 6 extra tuners on a full-size TiVo box?
> 
> ...


I'm blasting your notion that Tivo a 1 tuner extender could never be done because Comcast doesn't have to pay a cablecard fee to itself.

Because that same logic means Tivo's dvr could never be done.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

I think it is probably worthwhile to post TiVo's own assessment of risk.


Tivo's Risk to business said:


> If cable operators were to cease supporting and providing CableCARDs to consumers or cable operators were to transmit television programs using technology that prevents our retail products from receiving and displaying television programs, the functionality of our current retail products would be severely limited, in which case our business would be harmed.
> 
> The cable industry in the United States is currently required to provide access to digital high definition television signals to retail products by supplying separable security modules to decrypt encrypted signals. Traditionally, cable operators have satisfied this separable security requirement by supplying CableCARD conditional access security cards. We rely on cable operators to supply CableCARDs for certain types of our DVRs to receive encrypted digital television signals without a cable operator supplied set-top box. With the limited exception of high definition over the air broadcast channels, our DVRs presently are limited to using CableCARDs to access digital cable, high definition, and premium cable channels (such as HBO) that are delivered in a linear fashion where all programs are broadcast to all subscribers all the time. Our retail cable products are unable to access the encrypted digital television signals of satellite providers such as DIRECTV and Dish as well as alternative television service providers such as AT&T U-verse and Google Fiber. *And without CableCARDs, there presently is no alternative way for us to sell a retail cable product that works across cable systems nationwide. *
> 
> ...


Maybe advertising is on the way out. TBBT sells it's advertising time for roughly $6 million and reaches about 18 million viewers (that is 33 cents per viewer) plus the cost of making the commercial. What if you have an exchange where you purchase an item for $10 and that comes with the right to watch a 22 minute show. The retailer kicks back 33 cents to the network on the $10 purchase.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> I'm blasting your notion that Tivo a 1 tuner extender could never be done because Comcast doesn't have to pay a cablecard fee to itself.
> 
> Because that same logic means Tivo's dvr could never be done.


Your logic makes no sense. TiVo's DVR works because it has 4 or 6 tuners on one CableCard and then none on the rest of the boxes. Back in the day pre-Mini when every TV was $650 plus $7/mo, TiVo made little economic sense, but the CableCo DVRs were so horrible that TiVo could make sense for a few, more heavily used TVs. Today, with the demise of analog and the TiVo Mini, it makes sense to put Minis on every little TV in your house, as it ends up being cheaper than paying the cable company for boxes for them anyway.



Pacomartin said:


> I think it is probably worthwhile to post TiVo's own assessment of risk.


At the same time, Comcast has their weird love relationship with TiVo, and is about to gobble up TWC, giving them the lion's share of the market nationwide, and could cover most of the markets currently deployed with FIOS, and most of TiVo's business is based on MSO sales anyway, which overlap some geographically small, but dense areas of Comcast/TWC and FIOS's footprint.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

Bigg said:


> Today, with the demise of analog and the TiVo Mini, it makes sense to put Minis on every little TV in your house, as it ends up being cheaper than paying the cable company for boxes for them anyway.


RCN has decided that 4 televisions are the break even point for 6 tuner Tivo
Four individual Motorola HD boxes with 160 Gb storage are $15*4=$60
A six tuner Tivo with 3 minis is $60 to rent

RCN has decided that 2 televisions are the break even point for 4 tuner Tivo
Two individual Motorola HD boxes with 160 Gb storage are $15*2=$30
A four tuner Tivo with 1 minis is $30 to rent

For a single TV, the equipment is $25 for a 4 tuner Tivo with 500 Gb, and $15 for a Motorola 2 tuner with 160 Gb. They are hoping that most people will pony up the extra $10 for extra tuners and storage space.



Bigg said:


> At the same time, Comcast has their weird love relationship with TiVo


TiVo is aware that they are in vulnerable to uncontrolled price increases for CABLEcard or for CABLE companies denying them at all. They have simply decided to go in cahoots with as many cable companies as possible to protect their revenue.

Arris makes some nice products. In particular they have combined a 6 tuner DVR, modem and 4 port ethernet router and wireless into one box called a GATEWAY. I would like to eliminate all the unnecessary wiring.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Pacomartin said:


> Arris makes some nice products. In particular they have combined a 6 tuner DVR, modem and 4 port ethernet router and wireless into one box called a GATEWAY. I would like to eliminate all the unnecessary wiring.


That is a HUGE single point of failure. No Thanks, I will keep all my equipment separate. DVR, Modem, WiFi router

The ARRIS Gateway is basically the old Moxi DVR and Moxi Mates, I don't believe the UI has even been refreshed. Looks like the HDD is also only 500GB.
Media Gateway 5-series
Media Gateway 6-Series

http://www.buckeyecablesystem.com/gateway/gatewayvideos.html
http://www.buckeyecablesystem.com/gateway/images/documents/GatewayUserGuide.pdf

http://www.shaw.ca/gateway/specs/
https://www.youtube.com/user/MoxiHDDVR/videos


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Your logic makes no sense. TiVo's DVR works because it has 4 or 6 tuners on one CableCard and then none on the rest of the boxes. Back in the day pre-Mini when every TV was $650 plus $7/mo, TiVo made little economic sense, but the CableCo DVRs were so horrible that TiVo could make sense for a few, more heavily used TVs. Today, with the demise of analog and the TiVo Mini, it makes sense to put Minis on every little TV in your house, as it ends up being cheaper than paying the cable company for boxes for them anyway.


No Tivo DVRs made financial sense before the Mini even though you had to rent a cablecard.

NO reason to think it would be any different with a 1 tuner extender unless your provider jacks up the cablecard rental rate. I haven't heard of $7/mo to rent a cablecard in which case all Tivo equipment would start to not make sense. IT's $4/mo here.

And if the cable company has tuner-less extenders then by your logic Tivo doesn't make sense financially because you have to rent a cablecard.

Whether Tivo makes sense financially is dependent on the overall pricing of the cable company's product and what each product is offering.

Anyway I've repeated myself enough. I'm done.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

CoxInPHX said:


> That is a HUGE single point of failure. No Thanks, I will keep all my equipment separate. DVR, Modem, WiFi router.


Well. I just wish it linked together better. It seems like a lot of cables, splitters, and power cords for functions which belong together.

Is the TiVo Preview available on other cable companies besides RCN? It seems t me that it is a product that TiVo is moving away from in favor of the TiVo mini.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Twice I've read that Comcast can charge 7.45 for a cablecard, someone on Amazon in Florida, here by Les Daniels for a second card in CT.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=519274


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Pacomartin said:


> RCN has decided that 4 televisions are the break even point for 6 tuner Tivo


Those are still overpriced compared to owning one's own TiVo. Sure, their TiVos get you VOD, but that's about it. If you own your own box, you can switch to FIOS or Comcast, keep your DVR, and it should pick all your shows up on the new channel lineup...



> TiVo is aware that they are in vulnerable to uncontrolled price increases for CABLEcard or for CABLE companies denying them at all. They have simply decided to go in cahoots with as many cable companies as possible to protect their revenue.


Right. Although federal law requires that the cable companies credit if you're not using their equipment, so you basically get one freebie, which works out nicely for a Roamio/Mini setup.



trip1eX said:


> No Tivo DVRs made financial sense before the Mini even though you had to rent a cablecard.


Well actually, if you had one TV with HD/DVR, the Premiere at $650 and -$2.50/mo was cheaper than the cable company's $15-$20 crappy DVR. The problem is, neither system scaled upwards well. The only thing that did was MCE, and MCE is a nightmare compared to TiVo. Finally TiVo scales up well now that they have the Mini.



> NO reason to think it would be any different with a 1 tuner extender unless your provider jacks up the cablecard rental rate. I haven't heard of $7/mo to rent a cablecard in which case all Tivo equipment would start to not make sense. IT's $4/mo here.


Most providers are about $7/mo, including Comcast. However, the first one is -$2.50/mo, which is what I have, with a single Premiere XL4 serving 3 Minis.



> And if the cable company has tuner-less extenders then by your logic Tivo doesn't make sense financially because you have to rent a cablecard.


What? That doesn't make any sense. Their extenders have their own tuners, and you still have to rent them at $10/mo, AND that doesn't really have anything to do with the DVR itself.



> Whether Tivo makes sense financially is dependent on the overall pricing of the cable company's product and what each product is offering.


Not really, since the Roamio/Mini combo disconnected TiVo from the cable company's additional outlet fees, since it only needs one CableCard for the whole household.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Most providers are about $7/mo, including Comcast. However, the first one is -$2.50/mo, which is what I have,


Most providers are under $5/mo last I checked. And I always read Comcast's first card was free.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> What? That doesn't make any sense. Their extenders have their own tuners, and you still have to rent them at $10/mo, AND that doesn't really have anything to do with the DVR itself.


With your logic, if the cable company decides to have tuner-less extenders then Tivo doesn't work financially either. The Tivo system is then competing against the same thing minus the need to rent a cablecard at all. Not even one for the dvr.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Not really, since the Roamio/Mini combo disconnected TiVo from the cable company's additional outlet fees, since it only needs one CableCard for the whole household.


Yes really. IT depends on overall pricing and the value the product is offering. And not every cable company charges outlet fees. And the various fees differ from cable company to cable company.

IF the cable company wants to (and can) jack up the price of its first cable card to $10/mo and then rent you a dvr and tuner less extenders for $10/mo then Tivo can't compete financially either.

But this notion that you come out entirely adamant that a 1 tuner extender from Tivo couldn't compete financially with the cable companies 1-tuner extender just hasn't been very representative of the long term financial competitiveness of Tivo's other cablecard-requiring devices (aka its dvr) even before the Mini came out.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

trip1eX said:


> IF the cable company wants to (and can) jack up the price of its first cable card to $10/mo and then rent you a dvr and tuner less extenders for $10/mo then Tivo can't compete financially either.


It is a quickly changing business. TiVo peaked in users in January 2006.

Personally I see all court decisions going in favor of cable companies, so I think TiVo will primarily survive by working with Cable companies (and a smaller business on the side dealing with Over The Air broadcasts). That business may grow, as $15 a month makes OTA much more viable as an option if you can record and view shows when you want (plus it can play Netflix).

TiVo's success is also tied in to the fortunes of Network TV in general. For instance NBC used to have as many as 17 sitcoms on at once. Since 2009 they have cancelled every sitcom that was introduced before they had enough episodes to put it in syndication. Between 2001 and 2009 they had only 6 successes.

*Successful sitcoms that aired on NBC that premiered 1990 or later*
Parks and Recreation 2009
Community 2009
30 Rock 2006
The Office 2005
My Name Is Earl 2005
...
Scrubs 2001
Will & Grace 1998
Just Shoot Me! 1997
3rd Rock from the Sun 1996
Suddenly Susan 1996
Caroline in the City 1995
NewsRadio 1995
...
Friends 1994
Frasier 1993
Mad About You 1992
Wings 1990
The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air 1990

The whole idea of creating scripted shows and airing them to earn advertising dollars until you have enough episodes for syndication is in jeopardy. The increasingly widespread use of DVR's puts it in further danger. I think scripted shows will go to another medium. NBC may broadcast only news, magazines, reality and sports and simply air scripted shows on USA and HULU PLUS.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jth tv said:


> Twice I've read that Comcast can charge 7.45 for a cablecard, someone on Amazon in Florida, here by Les Daniels for a second card in CT.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=519274


Comcast charged me the $7.45 for the first of 4 cable cards, when I got my new two year contract that came with a "free DVR" that I did not take and returned my original Comcast cable box, the $7.45/month came off my bill and I got a cr. of $2.50/month for customer owned equipment, I am still being charges $1/per month per cable card for the other 3 cable cards I have. (Les Daniels; in the Hartford area in CT)


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> Most providers are under $5/mo last I checked. And I always read Comcast's first card was free.


$4.99 per cable card on FiOS.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights
Fcc website states: 
*Typically operators charge $2-4 per month to rent a CableCARD.*

The National Cable & Telecommunications Association (NCTA) says having more than 42 million CableCards in operator-supplied hardware (versus about 603,000 in third-party gear) ensures continued support.

RCN charges only $2/month. 
http://www.rcn.com/new-york/digital-cable-tv/equipment


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

lessd said:


> I got a cr. of $2.50/month for customer owned equipment, I am still being charges $1/per month per cable card for the other 3 cable cards I have. (Les Daniels; in the Hartford area in CT)


Same here in VA with Comcast. First CableCard is free and then 3 CableCards at $1 per month with a $2.50 credit for customer-owned equipment.

Scott


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> Most providers are under $5/mo last I checked. And I always read Comcast's first card was free.


The first one they pay you $2.50/mo, the second one, and every one thereafter is $7-$8/mo.



trip1eX said:


> With your logic, if the cable company decides to have tuner-less extenders then Tivo doesn't work financially either. The Tivo system is then competing against the same thing minus the need to rent a cablecard at all. Not even one for the dvr.


Noooooooooooo. Because if you actually think about it, the cable co's tunerless extenders are still going to be $10/mo whether they have a QAM tuner or not, versus a one-time cost of $150 for a TiVo Mini. A Comcast DVR is somewhere in the $18-$20 range, plus $10 for each extender. At that point, *it doesn't matter one iota whether Comcast has QAM tuners in their extenders or not*, it doesn't affect the cost of TiVo, which is still -$2.50/mo, $700-$1100 for the DVR, and $150 per Mini.



trip1eX said:


> IF the cable company wants to (and can) jack up the price of its first cable card to $10/mo and then rent you a dvr and tuner less extenders for $10/mo then Tivo can't compete financially either.


If they're bundling equipment, they have to give you a credit if you use your own equipment. That's federal law. Plus, even then, a DVR is $18-$20/mo plus $10/mo for each extender.



> But this notion that you come out entirely adamant that a 1 tuner extender from Tivo couldn't compete financially with the cable companies 1-tuner extender just hasn't been very representative of the long term financial competitiveness of Tivo's other cablecard-requiring devices (aka its dvr) even before the Mini came out.


Even if the CableCard is $2/mo, the hardware would cost more, due to the CableCard slot, and if you have to pay $2/mo, you can't compete with FREE per month like the Mini. Why would they make a product that doesn't make sense compared to their own Mini. If it were $2/mo for a CableCard, they might be able to compete with the cable company's own offerings, but it would make the break-even period longer, and still cost more than a Mini, so why bother?

Back in the day with the Series 3, TiVo was competing against Motorola DCT and DCH boxes with 2 tuners, no networking capability, 80GB hard drives, and dysfunctional iGuide software. Today they are competing against X1, Spectrum, etc. If you had to pay $650 per TV back in the day for TiVo, that made sense compared to separate, non-networked DVRs that cost $15/mo each and didn't really work in the first place.



lessd said:


> Comcast charged me the $7.45 for the first of 4 cable cards, when I got my new two year contract that came with a "free DVR" that I did not take and returned my original Comcast cable box, the $7.45/month came off my bill and I got a cr. of $2.50/month for customer owned equipment, I am still being charges $1/per month per cable card for the other 3 cable cards I have. (Les Daniels; in the Hartford area in CT)


You're lucky, they're supposed to be charging you around $7/mo for each additional one.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

jth tv said:


> Twice I've read that Comcast can charge 7.45 for a cablecard, someone on Amazon in Florida, here by Les Daniels for a second card in CT.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=519274


Comcast card pricing is YMMV, even within the same area. It's always been that way even though it violates FCC card rules. $7.45 is the standard additional outlet fee for a card ($9.95 - $2.50 customer owned equipment credit) but many people report getting charged $1.50, $1.10, $1 etc. or nothing for extra cards. You will never get one answer.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> You're lucky, they're supposed to be charging you around $7/mo for each additional one.


I guess _HerronScott_ is lucky also (post 108) as he is paying the same as I am.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

CoxInPHX said:


> That is a HUGE single point of failure. No Thanks, I will keep all my equipment separate. DVR, Modem, WiFi router
> 
> The ARRIS Gateway is basically the old Moxi DVR and Moxi Mates, I don't believe the UI has even been refreshed. Looks like the HDD is also only 500GB.
> Media Gateway 5-series
> ...


I was just told that Arris is eliminating the built in modem and router as it was causing major performance issues with the Gateway. The reworked Gateway will only have the phone modem built in as the Gateway does not work like a traditional STB as it gets all its data through the Ethernet port. This is the only way that Caller ID on TV will work with the Gateway.

And yes the UI is the same that was released by Moxi in 2008 and was available with the 3 tuner Moxi and Mates. The only difference is the back ground is black and not blue. Even the remote is the same. 
My cable company offers this now.
http://www.secv.com/hazleton/prod_dvr6_hazl.html


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Pacomartin said:


> The National Cable & Telecommunications Association (NCTA) says having more than 42 million CableCards in operator-supplied hardware (versus about 603,000 in third-party gear) *ensures* continued support.


The NCTA talking points does not say "ensures", it says "strong incentive".

This is the paragraph from those September 23rd 2013 talking points,

NCTA asked the FCC to end the integration ban in its 2010 CableCARD rule-making, but the FCC declined to do so, instead relying on waiver processes that are lengthy, costly, and that subject cable operators alone to a mother-may-I approach to innovation. Most importantly, the FCCs decision ignored the substantial changes that have occurred in the video marketplace over the past 15 years. Even assuming there was a reasonable basis for the integration ban when it was first adopted in 1998, that is no longer the case. Today over 42 million CableCARD-enabled set-top devices have been deployed by cable operators in the marketplace, while a mere 600,000 CableCARDs have been requested by cable customers for use in third-party devices purchased at retail. With 42 million CableCARD devices in customer homes, cable operators have a *strong incentive* to continue to support CableCARDs, *but also want the freedom to support new forms of navigation devices that do not rely on CableCARDs. *

It is the second part of that sentence is what is questionable as they want to move away from the encryption standard that CableCards use.
https://www.ncta.com/platform/public-policy/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-integration-ban/

One of the important things that is being missed is the NCTA, Verizon, AT&T, etc. contributed heavily in this recent election and has basically won the possibility of the new congress rewriting the entire Telecommunications Act of 1996 to be more favorable to the industry and less favorable to the consumer.
With the Republicans now controlling congress and a FCC commissioner that was picked by the current president, and who was also a lobbyist for the cable TV industry, I now see this to likely to happen. They are not stopping at the end of the integration ban, they are going all the way.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

Jed1 said:


> The NCTA talking points does not say "ensures", it says "strong incentive".
> 
> This is the paragraph from those *September 23rd 2013* talking points,


The quote I was making was from *August 2nd 2013*. They must have decided that "ensures" was too strong a statement and changed it to "have a strong incentive".

In any case TiVo is trying to get their company into other areas preparing for the eventual transition. From their 2013 annual report:

*Extend the TiVo Service to the Cloud.* TiVo has been transitioning its service to the cloud over the past several years, and allowing TiVo to offer its products on a multitude of devices beyond the set-top box. Further, TiVo is in the process of developing a network DVR service, which will allow Pay TV to offer storage in the cloud reducing their expenditures on hardware, allowing recorded shows to be delivered to more devices, and enabling features and controls for both consumers and operators that werent possible with a set-top box based DVR. Additionally, the recent acquisition of Digitalsmiths enables TiVo to offer elements of its service through non-TiVo branded user experiences.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Pacomartin said:


> ..........: Extend the TiVo Service to the Cloud. TiVo has been transitioning its service to the cloud over the past several years, and allowing TiVo to offer its products on a multitude of devices beyond the set-top box. Further, TiVo is in the process of developing a network DVR service, which will allow Pay TV to offer storage in the cloud reducing their expenditures on hardware, allowing recorded shows to be delivered to more devices, and enabling features and controls for both consumers and operators that werent possible with a set-top box based DVR. Additionally, the recent acquisition of Digitalsmiths enables TiVo to offer elements of its service through non-TiVo branded user experiences.


The TiVo "Helium" DVR I presume?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> The first one they pay you $2.50/mo, the second one, and every one thereafter is $7-$8/mo.
> 
> Noooooooooooo. Because if you actually think about it, the cable co's tunerless extenders are still going to be $10/mo whether they have a QAM tuner or not, versus a one-time cost of $150 for a TiVo Mini. A Comcast DVR is somewhere in the $18-$20 range, plus $10 for each extender. At that point, *it doesn't matter one iota whether Comcast has QAM tuners in their extenders or not*, it doesn't affect the cost of TiVo, which is still -$2.50/mo, $700-$1100 for the DVR, and $150 per Mini.
> 
> ...


I'm still laughing at your absolute insistence that Tivo can't make a cost effective 1-tuner extender because of cablecard even though they can make a cost-effective dvr despite cablecard. IT's hilarious.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> Comcast card pricing is YMMV, even within the same area. It's always been that way even though it violates FCC card rules. $7.45 is the standard additional outlet fee for a card ($9.95 - $2.50 customer owned equipment credit) but many people report getting charged $1.50, $1.10, $1 etc. or nothing for extra cards. You will never get one answer.





lessd said:


> I guess _HerronScott_ is lucky also (post 108) as he is paying the same as I am.


Some areas are billed differently, but CT is $7-$8/mo, at least it is supposed to be. Some people are just getting lucky. I guess keep as many as you have at the lower rate!



trip1eX said:


> I'm still laughing at your absolute insistence that Tivo can't make a cost effective 1-tuner extender because of cablecard even though they can make a cost-effective dvr despite cablecard. IT's hilarious.


You are just plain wrong. It can never be cost effective to have something that costs more than the Mini, even if it's only $100 and $2/mo for some customers. And for many customers, at $5/mo to $7/mo, it is far worse. Making a 12-tuner Roamio with 2 CableCards or something like a SuperJoey that added 4 or 6 tuners to a Roamio would make a lot more sense, as you'd get the full 6 tuners out of the additional CableCard.

Your "logic" makes no sense, and many of the statement you are making about this are mathematically wrong. I have explained very clearly why the 2-tuner Premiere made sense in it's day, and why the 6-tuner Roamios make sense today.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

HarperVision said:


> The TiVo "Helium" DVR I presume?


It could be. The annual report does not use the word *Helium*

Our Technology

*TiVo Service Client Software.* The TiVo service client software functions on set-top boxes, tablets, and mobile devices which run the TiVo software. We have enhanced the client software to support multiple services and applications, such as receipt of broadband video content, digital music, and photos. The TiVo client software manages interaction with the TiVo service infrastructure i*n the cloud*. After the initial set-up of the TiVo service, the TiVo-enabled set-top box will automatically connect to the TiVo service infrastructure over broadband connection to download the program guide data, client software upgrades, advertising content, and other broadband content. We have also enabled the TiVo service client software to operate on certain commonly used integrated third-party set-top boxes, such as on a Cisco, Samsung, and Pace manufactured set-top boxes.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Some areas are billed differently, but CT is $7-$8/mo, at least it is supposed to be. Some people are just getting lucky. I guess keep as many as you have at the lower rate!


You are correct as many of my friends are paying $7.45/month for each cable card over the first (if they don't have any Comcast equipment). I have a friend that had 6 cable card TiVos in his big home + a Comcast HD box (that he did not need or use). I put in one Roamio + and 5 Minis, returned the cable box and he is now saving $7.45/month per cable card+ tax = about $8.45/month x 6= about $50.70/month + $2.50 cr. for having your own equipment. The Roamio+ + 3Tb drive + 5 Minis (before the price drop) costs him $2,000, his *net* from selling his 6 TiVos on E-Bay was $1650. So his total cost was $350 to now save $53/month, and the system is much easer to deal with for them.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> You are correct as many of my friends are paying $7.45/month for each cable card over the first (if they don't have any Comcast equipment). I have a friend that had 6 cable card TiVos in his big home + a Comcast HD box (that he did not need or use). I put in one Roamio + and 5 Minis, returned the cable box and he is now saving $7.45/month per cable card+ tax = about $8.45/month x 6= about $50.70/month + $2.50 cr. for having your own equipment. The Roamio+ + 3Tb drive + 5 Minis (before the price drop) costs him $2,000, his *net* from selling his 6 TiVos on E-Bay was $1650. So his total cost was $350 to now save $53/month, and the system is much easer to deal with for them.


Wow, that's pretty insane. Sounds like a good upgrade for him!


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> The TiVo "Helium" DVR I presume?


I was looking through the TiVo mini FCC exhibits and a "Helium DVR" is mentioned as part of the test platform. Interesting enough it has the same model number as a Premiere 4 tuner - TCD750500


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> I was looking through the TiVo mini FCC exhibits and a "Helium DVR" is mentioned as part of the test platform. Interesting enough it has the same model number as a Premiere 4 tuner - TCD750500


Yeah I noticed it in an image someone posted about cloud based architecture testing for the new Mini and found it interesting. Sounds like they're probably testing cloud DVR technology software on existing hardware (Premiere 4).

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10315915#post10315915


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> Yeah I noticed it in an image someone posted about cloud based architecture testing for the new Mini and found it interesting. Sounds like they're probably testing cloud DVR technology software on existing hardware (Premiere 4).
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10315915#post10315915


Maybe, it could also just be a test bed system with the local network restrictions turned off. This would be helpful for external demonstrations and testing - such as FCC submissions.

It would also make sense that it is a 4 tuner Premiere - no need to upgrade a working platform based on the testing requirements.

Based on this, I would suggest that the term *Helium *isn't the code name for some future cloud based DVR... It is simply the code name for a remote test platform.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> Maybe, it could also just be a test bed system with the local network restrictions turned off. This would be helpful for external demonstrations and testing - such as FCC submissions. It would also make sense that it is a 4 tuner Premiere - no need to upgrade a working platform based on the testing requirements. Based on this, I would suggest that the term Helium isn't the code name for some future cloud based DVR... It is simply the code name for a remote test platform.


I see your point, but if they're just testing a mini, why would they need a "code name" for the host when there are already Premieres and Roamios out there that everyone already knows about that easily function as hosts for a mini?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> I see your point, but if they're just testing a mini, why would they need a "code name" for the host when there are already Premieres and Roamios out there that everyone already knows about that easily function as hosts for a mini?


Simply to represent the remote box... They provide the specific model number - a series 4 work horse. Nothing special.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> Simply to represent the remote box... They provide the specific model number - a series 4 work horse. Nothing special.


......or proof of concept?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> ......or proof of concept?


I suppose, but I sure wouldn't use that as a FCC test mule.

Frankly, before I saw this, I would have thought the test mule would be a simple emulator sitting on TiVo servers, not an actual box... That said, I bet if you go back to the original Mini FCC approval documents it will reference the exact same remote TiVo device called "Helium"

I just do not see TiVo using a non tested, future state, "cloud" DVR for something as critical as a FCC test platform.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> I suppose, but I sure wouldn't use that as a FCC test mule. Frankly, before I saw this, I would have thought the test mule would be a simple emulator sitting on TiVo servers, not an actual box... That said, I bet if you go back to the original Mini FCC approval documents it will reference the exact same remote TiVo device called "Helium" I just do not see TiVo using a non tested, future state, "cloud" DVR for something as critical as a FCC test platform.


Maybe they're testing it as worst case scenario where the Premiere is the lowest platform that'll support their cloud DVR services, as in if it works on a premiere, then there shouldn't be an issue using it with a Roamio or future TiVo device.

I'm not saying the Premiere is the cloud DVR, I'm saying that it's the device in the home (as well as roamios and anything newer) that connects to their cloud DVR service and brings it to the home. This testing of the mini could be proof of concept that their cloud DVR service running on the Premiere can be passed through and supported onto their new Mini. In other words, the premiere is just the "middleman" serving up cloud programming the same way they do for cable channels now.


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