# Well that was fast (Mini price drop at Amazon)



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Looks like Amazon is now direct selling the Mini for $88 with free shipping. Not an earth shattering adjustment but interesting to see it happen this quickly. I suspect demand might be low for the Mini.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> Looks like Amazon is now direct selling the Mini for $88 with free shipping. Not an earth shattering adjustment but interesting to see it happen this quickly. I suspect demand might be low for the Mini.


That is a nice 12% discount. That means that you can also get it from Best Buy for the same price too since they will match Amazons price.

Although you can only get the price match at the time of the sale. You can't come back after purchasing to get it.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> I suspect demand might be low for the Mini.


Demand for a TiVo product low? Go figure.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> Looks like Amazon is now direct selling the Mini for $88 with free shipping. Not an earth shattering adjustment but interesting to see it happen this quickly. I suspect demand might be low for the Mini.


I got the Mini at the full $99 when it first came out, sold off my TPs and purchased TP-4, I got about $30 more for my TPs at that time then I could get now, so I made out, if your upgrading by selling off your old TiVos on E-bay, waiting until the new hardware goes down in price may not get you much if any savings. IE in April I got $349 for the TiVo-HD for some friends, now I can only get $329.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

If demand is low, I figure it's because most people who wanted one has bought it by now. I suspect the lower price will get some that are waiting out the "early adopter" period.
Otherwise, I think the Mini sales will stagnate until TiVo can get the next line of DVRs out.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

steve614 said:


> If demand is low, I figure it's because most people who wanted one has bought it by now. I suspect the lower price will get some that are waiting out the "early adopter" period.
> Otherwise, I think the Mini sales will stagnate until TiVo can get the next line of DVRs out.


Also how many people outside this forum even know about the Mini, I got a few friends to upgrade to the Mini, but I knew about Moca and POE filter, you think the average consumer knows about that stuff.
The Mini is (IMHO) a test run for the next release of new TiVo products this fall when TiVo can advertise the total home solution for their DVR. 6 tuners and 3 or 4 Minis using only one cable card/A/O, and groups by person than by show, and also breaking the 2.2Tb drive barrier. Also HD parent control could turned on as little Johnny can have his own set of shows under his name.


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## Austin Bike (Feb 9, 2003)

I would agree with lessd that most people who aren't actively watching the TiVo world probably don't know about it. Also, it only works with a 4-tuner box, so it's appeal is limited. 

Also, you need to be in the market for another device. 

And there are some that are waiting for the dynamic tuner support before pulling the trigger. 


When you put all of that together you get a demand curve with a sharp spike for the early adopters then a drop as that market is satisfied. The next spike will happen when the new software is available.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I don't even see it as a 12% discount since factoring in lifetime it's really $250->$238 =~ 5% discount.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

BlackBetty said:


> Demand for a TiVo product low? Go figure.


Well it's kind of crippled without DTA.


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## 2trill4925 (Aug 1, 2009)

The service fee doomed this product. If I weren't so deeply entrenched into the Tivo ecosystem I also would've scoffed at this offering.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

What does the cable company charge each month for a Client streaming box?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> What does the cable company charge each month for a Client streaming box?


I don't think anybody can give the price for any given service that cable co.s offer as people have deals that include all kinds things.

As example I pay $1 /month for each cable card (the price drop this month from $1.15 for some unknown reason) and no A/O fee, so for 4 cable cards I pay $4.36/month inc the 9% tax
My bill for cable cards
*2nd Cablecard 05/25 - 06/24 $4.00
Same Outlet.
Qty 4 @ $1.00 each*

My friend pays $7.45 for each cable card (and I guess an A/O charge) + 9%tax for a total of $48.73/month, if he paid what I pay his cost would drop $42/19 per month.
His bill
* Add'l Digital Outlet 05/03 - 06/02 $7.45
TiVo Premiere Cablecard
Digital Additional 05/03 - 06/02 $37.25
Outlet Service Charge (with Cablecard)
Includes Customer-owned Video Equipment*

So go figure.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Amazon is now sold out of their Mini's - showing one to three week availability. 3rd party sources still have it.


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## Austin Bike (Feb 9, 2003)

sbiller said:


> Amazon is now sold out of their Mini's - showing one to three week availability. 3rd party sources still have it.


Sold out? Wow, demand must be dropping fast


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Austin Bike said:


> Sold out? Wow, demand must be dropping fast


We now know they (Amazon) sold about 20 Mini's over the weekend. 

I'm guessing at this point they are probably selling about 10/day, 300/mo, 900/qtr, 10,000/yr.

I expect that TiVo sold about 10,000 Mini's during their quarter ending 4/30/2013... we will have a good idea of the quantity sold when TiVo reports on 5/20.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

sbiller said:


> I'm guessing at this point they are probably selling about 10/day, 300/mo, 900/qtr, 10,000/yr.


How did 10 per day become 10k per year? Have you converted to the new metric 1000-day year already?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> How did 10 per day become 10k per year? Have you converted to the new metric 1000-day year already?


He said 900 per quarter, you all know we now have 11 quarters in the new year.


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## martyscholes (Apr 29, 2009)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> How did 10 per day become 10k per year? Have you converted to the new metric 1000-day year already?


That's a holdover from the fact that computer people call 1024 as kilo, 1048576 as mega, and so on when according to SI, a kilo is in fact 1000 and mega is 1000000. The prefixes giga and tera are even worse.

So, the same issue is at play here, where a kiloday in SI is 1000 days, but us sloppy computer types have rounded a year to be equal to a kiloday. Instead of that 365.24 days per year nonsense, we just round up.

It makes the math much simpler. Far less correct, of course, but simpler.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

2trill4925 said:


> The service fee doomed this product. If I weren't so deeply entrenched into the Tivo ecosystem I also would've scoffed at this offering.


But what's the alternative? TiVo is the only decent DVR system for cable that's out there. It shows how small the market is too, as there is so much that TiVo is so far behind in, yet they don't have the competition to whip their butts into motion. I'd love to see a competitor to really knock it out of the park, but there probably isn't a big enough market for them.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> But what's the alternative? TiVo is the only decent DVR system for cable that's out there. It shows how small the market is too, as there is so much that TiVo is so far behind in, yet they don't have the competition to whip their butts into motion. I'd love to see a competitor to really knock it out of the park, but there probably isn't a big enough market for them.


The cable co DVR swamps the market with no upfront cost and full in house service and upgrades without extra cost, + only one co to call if having problems, and no cable card issues. I personally would not trade from my TiVos as I love them and know how to fix most TiVo problems without much cost, and many on this forum may also have the same feeling but the general public not so much, I have 3 close friends + my kids with TiVos and I am the one who they call if they are having any TiVo problems, I don't suggest TiVo to any more friends.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> But what's the alternative? TiVo is the only decent DVR system for cable that's out there. It shows how small the market is too, as there is so much that TiVo is so far behind in, yet they don't have the competition to whip their butts into motion. I'd love to see a competitor to really knock it out of the park, but there probably isn't a big enough market for them.


The new 6 tuner infiniTV 6 with Windows Media Center and WMC extenders (XBox, Echo, etc) is an alternative. And there are no lifetime or monthly fees. That is what kept me from staying with TiVo this time.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Microsoft has discontinued development of MCE so I'm not sure how much longer that's going to be a viable alternative.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Just because they discontinued development doesn't mean they discontinued support. They still sell licenses too. The product is already mature, has a great full HD GUI and pretty stable, which is tough to say for these other solutions.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm not saying it's going away tomorrow, but unless they change their mind it'll likely go away when support for Windows 8 stops. And it'll likely get stagnent long before then.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

By then I'll have recouped my investment and it'll be moot anyway. 

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved the TiVo P4 and two minis I had, but I couldn't in good conscience spend an extra $697 just for lifetime services. (P4 LT $399, mini LT $149 x 2 = $697) when I could get the same if not better results with the PC WMC WH DVR solution.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Too each their own. I had an HTPC for a while and didn't really care for the MCE UI. Plus if you look at it objectively and build a complete HTPC system from scratch, plus two XBoxes or Echos, the price difference compared to TiVo isn't that much. And if you consider how much more power an HTPC will draw compared to a TiVo in the long run you're probably not saving much at all.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved the TiVo P4 and two minis I had, but I couldn't in good conscience spend an extra $697 just for lifetime services. (P4 LT $399, mini LT $149 x 2 = $697) when I could get the same if not better results with the PC WMC WH DVR solution.


Out of curiosity, what was the hardware cost for your PC WMC WH DVR solution?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aristoBrat said:


> Out of curiosity, what was the hardware cost for your PC WMC WH DVR solution?


I ran some quick calculations on Amazon and, starting from scratch, you can build an HTPC with 4 tuner Ceton card for about $700. If you really bargain hunt you might be able to do it cheaper. And of course if you already have parts to use, or a license to Windows, then it would be even cheaper.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

aristoBrat said:


> Out of curiosity, what was the hardware cost for your PC WMC WH DVR solution?


Well not taking into consideration what I already had and would have had regardless (Xbox for son, HP quad core PC, DirecTV DECA) I bought the new infiniTV6 $299, another used XBox $125 and an HP X280n for $90.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I ran some quick calculations on Amazon and, starting from scratch, you can build an HTPC with 4 tuner Ceton card for about $700. If you really bargain hunt you might be able to do it cheaper. And of course if you already have parts to use, or a license to Windows, then it would be even cheaper.


Gesh, I just googled around regarding the extenders.

If the wikipedia page is correct, it looks like market support for MCE is pretty much gone already. 

So a new, supported MCE extender is either $179 (Echo) or $199 (Xbox)?



> *Products available as of 2013:*
> Xbox 360 (Works with MCE 2005, Vista, Windows 7 and Windows 8 Media Center)
> Ceton Echo (Does not work with Windows 8 Media Center)
> 
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Media_Center_Extender


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Not much different than the choices you have for TiVo though.


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## Smiles3usa (May 2, 2013)

Picked up two Mini's at Best Buy last night and they matched the price drop. Sweet.  I used the saved 24.00 to buy the 4-year extended warranty for $19.99. Only brought one warranty, since the warranty is not attached to any Mini in particular. I guess if both Minis malfunction, I'm screwed.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's pretty easy to build a 4-tuner HTPC with a couple of extenders (used Xbox slims or Linksys DMA2100s) for $900 or so. An equivalent lifetime XL4 + 2 Mini setup would be $1300, and as you go past 2 extenders the HTPC is way cheaper because the used extenders are readily available for $100 or less. You would have new Minis vs. used PC extenders of course.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's pretty easy to build a 4-tuner HTPC with a couple of extenders (used Xbox slims or Linksys DMA2100s) for $900 or so. An equivalent lifetime XL4 + 2 Mini setup would be $1300, and as you go past 2 extenders the HTPC is way cheaper because the used extenders are readily available for $100 or less. You would have new Minis vs. used PC extenders of course.


Interesting.

To me it looks like a MCE WHDVR solution (with used extenders) has a cheaper startup cost compared to TiVo, but TiVo (if you can sell your equipment 5-7 down the road for near the cost of Lifetime) might be the same cost (or a little less expensive) in the end.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Don't forget about power. A TiVo XL 4 draws about 19W and a Mini only draws about 6W. Even a low power HTPC will draw about 40W and an XBox 360 draws about 175W. The Ceton Echo is on par with the Mini drawing about 6W.

If you consider that then an HTPC will probably cost you an extra few dollars per month compared to a TiVo.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

The current 360's draw less than half that. But still, that is alot more than a Mini or XL4.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's pretty easy to build a 4-tuner HTPC with a couple of extenders (used Xbox slims or Linksys DMA2100s) for $900 or so. An equivalent lifetime XL4 + 2 Mini setup would be $1300, and as you go past 2 extenders the HTPC is way cheaper because the used extenders are readily available for $100 or less. You would have new Minis vs. used PC extenders of course.


What's the HTPC worth in 3-4 years? Those tivos probably still worth $600 or more.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

Got to admit that the DIY part of me likes the idea of building a MCE WHDVR. I'm fairly sure my housemates would move out if I did, but it does sound like a fun project!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Thats mainly why I did it a few years ago. Because I like to tinker. But in practice I didn't care for the UI so it got very little use. Eventually I dismantled it and used the parts to build a computer for my Sister.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Don't forget about power. A TiVo XL 4 draws about 19W and a Mini only draws about 6W. Even a low power HTPC will draw about 40W and an XBox 360 draws about 175W. The Ceton Echo is on par with the Mini drawing about 6W.
> 
> If you consider that then an HTPC will probably cost you an extra few dollars per month compared to a TiVo.


Don't forget that HTPCs can sleep when not in use, and the Xboxes have WOL capability to wake them up when you want to watch something. The power use of a sleeping PC vs. a Tivo is probably in favor of the PC overall, but the Xboxes are going to draw a lot more when in use.

Power really isn't the main issue here, it's how you like the experience of WMC vs. Tivo. I have both and prefer using Tivo, personally, but I don't have any Minis yet and won't until I can get one for less than $200.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> Power really isn't the main issue here, it's how you like the experience of WMC vs. Tivo.


I also have both and agree. I personally prefer the TiVo experience over the WMC experience on my TV but again that is just a personal preference. What I like about WMC is being able to share networked tuners thus not need to run coax everywhere. I have a Win 7 HTPC attached to my TV and a Win 8 PC with WMC in my Office that I like being able to use.


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## Austin Bike (Feb 9, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> I also have both and agree. I personally prefer the TiVo experience over the WMC experience on my TV but again that is just a personal preference. What I like about WMC is being able to share networked tuners thus not need to run coax everywhere. I have a Win 7 HTPC attached to my TV and a Win 8 PC with WMC in my Office that I like being able to use.


Agree completely. I built a win7 MC PC and while it was great in some aspects, my wife grew tired of telling me to "reboot the TV."

Some things just need to be simple and straightforward. There is a point of diminishing returns on technology. Drive a BMW 7-series and then get back in your car. You'll be amazed at how easy it is to turn up the AC or change the radio. Sometimes complexity is the enemy.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> I don't have any Minis yet and won't until I can get one for less than $200.


You can get one right for $88.... if you pay for monthly service.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)




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