# Comcast refusing to support TiVo with cable cards



## jbkendrick (Jan 3, 2009)

I have spent the last week trying to get a multistream card for my new TiVo HD XL. After several hours on the phone with Comcast call takers and supervisors, and waiting around at home for techs to show up for the last two days, and each time the tech shows up with single stream cards that don't work, I am getting quite frustrated.

Comcast, even their supervisors, are playing dumb acting like they don't know what a multstream card is, and only agreeing to send a tech out after I site the FCC regulation. The techs say when they arrive that they can't get the cards, and the single stream cards they have in stock are mostly damaged. They also state that there is nothing on the work order that indicates a multistream is needed, even though the supervisors say they put it in the order.

*I'm about ready to return my TiVo and cancel service, and would warn others not to go with TiVo as it seems the major carriers are refusing to support it.*

Any help that can be offered would be appreciated. I would like to get my TiVo working if possible. John


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## convergent (Jan 4, 2007)

They can install two SCards in your Tivo and it should work exactly the same as one MCard. If they don't want to install an MCard, then I'd go with the SCards if they have them available.


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## lacsap (Feb 13, 2005)

Comcast supports cablecards in new england - and mcards at that ... Had no problem with installation, nor did my friends. So, maybe one should consider getting Tivo ...


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

jbkendrick said:


> *I'm about ready to return my TiVo and cancel service, and would warn others not to go with TiVo as it seems the major carriers are refusing to support it.*
> 
> Any help that can be offered would be appreciated. I would like to get my TiVo working if possible. John


OMG that's too funny!

DON'T BUY A TIVO! (but can you pretty please help me with mine?)


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## bbock727 (Feb 28, 2004)

TolloNodre said:


> OMG that's too funny!
> 
> DON'T BUY A TIVO! (but can you pretty please help me with mine?)


Comcast supports cablecards in New Jersey.


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## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

jbkendrick said:


> *I'm about ready to return my TiVo and cancel service, and would warn others not to go with TiVo as it seems the major carriers are refusing to support it.*


O-key. Nice touch with the bold.  Are we supposed to all start going "Oh my gosh! John's going to leave Tivo! It's the end of the world!" 

Comcast in western Washington state supports Tivo just fine. They even let me self-install the M-Card. I just had to go to their office to pick it up.


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## Ceciliachavez75 (Dec 23, 2008)

I live in the bay area and all i had to do was go to an actual comcast place and ask for the card. They gave us an Mcard. The comcast CS people that you get when you call are usually horrible, i mean its as if they know nothing about the service they are hired to provide.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

And in the Seattle area


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

I watched as the CSR entered an order for an M-Card to be installed into my TiVo next weekend. I'll let them install two S-Cards only if they don't assess the charge for a second CableCard .


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## Ceciliachavez75 (Dec 23, 2008)

We installed our own Mcard, and i think if we were able to do it, ANYONE can do it


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

Comcast in Chattanooga was reasonably helpful in getting mine setup, first one took a little work, but the 2nd one was a breeze. All picked up from the local office.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

I tried, the CSR said they didn't have cards in the office - only the techs have cards.


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## Ceciliachavez75 (Dec 23, 2008)

Wierd, maybe it depends on where you live.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

jbkendrick said:


> I have spent the last week trying to get a multistream card for my new TiVo HD XL. After several hours on the phone with Comcast call takers and supervisors, and waiting around at home for techs to show up for the last two days, and each time the tech shows up with single stream cards that don't work, I am getting quite frustrated.
> 
> Comcast, even their supervisors, are playing dumb acting like they don't know what a multstream card is, and only agreeing to send a tech out after I site the FCC regulation. The techs say when they arrive that they can't get the cards, and the single stream cards they have in stock are mostly damaged. They also state that there is nothing on the work order that indicates a multistream is needed, even though the supervisors say they put it in the order.
> 
> ...


I think you're just confused a bit so don't panic. Some cableco's do not have "M" (multi-stream) cable cards yet. TiVo HD's and HDXL's will work with "M" or "S" (single stream) cable cards. If they don't have "M" cable cards all you need are two "S" cable cards. You can argue w/them about paying for a 2nd card or not. (Our 2nd card from Comcast is $1.50/mo.)

If the cards they tried don't work there's a good possibility that the cards they tried simply didn't work. There are plenty of posts here, on the AVS Forum and elsewhere about techs having to go through a half-dozen or more cable cards before they found one's that worked. (Makes me guess that they just take the ones that didn't back and toss them in the pile for some other poor tech to try. )

It's also a rare possibility that your TiVo has a problem. Rare but not unheard of. If electronics fail it's usually right away. In that case you can get a brand new box from TiVo if you're in the 30 day full replacement warranty (otherwise $49 in the first year). Or just take it back to the retailer where you bought it for an exchange.

So you just need to work with Comcast (in a less combative way?) and/or TiVo to get things ironed out. Tens of thousands of people are enjoying TiVo (w/cable cards) provided by Comcast and all of the major and minor cable companies.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

upset people say the darnedest things.


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## jbkendrick (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks, that was helpful. Fortunately, TiVo cares about its customers even if you don't. They agreed to 3-way into Comcast with me to explain what was needed. They understood that the cable companies are resistant and when they identified themselves, everything changed on the part of the Comcast call taker. For the first time in a week of calls, they knew what a cable card was, and even knew the difference between single and multistream. Imagine that. Perhaps a 3-way call with the cable company should be step #1 on the setup guide if cards are needed, or at least included as a recommendation. It would sure alleviate much wasted time and frustration.

What you apparently don't understand is that after putting out $600 on a TiVo box and agreeing to a one-year commitment, people need this to work rather quickly in order to not lose the short 30-day return privilege. I'm just glad you're not working for TiVo. I'm sure Comcast would hire you though.



TolloNodre said:


> OMG that's too funny!
> 
> DON'T BUY A TIVO! (but can you pretty please help me with mine?)


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

Here's an underhanded approach that will work, but personally I wouldn't recommend.

When you put in the order, order a Comcast DVR. Then somehow swap the Multistream CableCARD from the Comcast DVR with the single stream -- maybe let the installer install them both. Then wait a week and return the DVR. It'll take them some time to figure out what has happened and by then you won't care because you'll have your M-card.


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## jbkendrick (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks for the courteous replies. I am trying to get this to work, but just didn't expect to be taking two days waiting for techs to arrive and several hours on the phone for something so simple.

Comcast in the Maryland area will not allow you to install the cards on your own - that was my first request. And yes, they know the cards are in bad shape. The guy that showed up today told me it most likely was broken but its all they had so he tried.

I will update this thread with more information when the situation is resolved one way or another. And I apologize to those that feel my post was too harsh. John


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jbkendrick said:


> Thanks, that was helpful.


well I just saw your post in another thread in which TWC was actually trying to improve their service for Tivo customers by finally using M-cards.

Yet all you wanted to do was ***** some more about your Comcast experience *and then bold out again for everyone not to buy* a TiVo. You are aware this is a forum with people who use and like Tivo DVRs, have shelled out their own money for same and dealt with hassles of their own, and are now seeing you as basically being a jerk about the whole thing and being unhelpful as all get out in your very posts asking for others to help you. Lighten up the attitude and you will get a lot further, both here and with Comcast.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

jbkendrick said:


> Any help that can be offered would be appreciated. I would like to get my TiVo working if possible. John


Go to: http://www.comcast.com/Corporate/Customers/customercare.html

Click on the link at the bottom: Send an e-mail to Rick Germano.

Describe your situation and what you've gone through. He will see that your problem gets taken care of quickly.


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## jbkendrick (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks for the reply Rich. How much are they charging for the first card? Comcast told me the first would be $7.99 and if I needed a second, it would be another $7.99. I told them that is almost as much as a DVR rental and didn't make sense. I told them I thought the first should be free, but I was willing to pay for the second card. Of course, after reading the messages here, I should have negotiated a bit more.

I will take your advice, and keep working on it, especially since TiVo was concerned enough to call Comcast with me. John



richsadams said:


> I think you're just confused a bit so don't panic. Some cableco's do not have "M" (multi-stream) cable cards yet. TiVo HD's and HDXL's will work with "M" or "S" (single stream) cable cards. If they don't have "M" cable cards all you need are two "S" cable cards. You can argue w/them about paying for a 2nd card or not. (Our 2nd card from Comcast is $1.50/mo.)
> 
> If the cards they tried don't work there's a good possibility that the cards they tried simply didn't work. There are plenty of posts here, on the AVS Forum and elsewhere about techs having to go through a half-dozen or more cable cards before they found one's that worked. (Makes me guess that they just take the ones that didn't back and toss them in the pile for some other poor tech to try. )
> 
> ...


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

jbkendrick said:


> ...*I'm about ready to return my TiVo and cancel service, and would warn others not to go with TiVo as it seems the major carriers are refusing to support it.*...


A more appropriate decision, John, would be to warn people not to use Comcast, and to NOTIFY THE FCC THAT YOUR LOCAL COMCAST OUTLET IS IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW, HINDERING A CUSTOMER'S USE OF THIRD PARTY EQUIPMENT AND REFUSING TO ALLOW SUCH TO INTERACT WITH THEIR CABLE SYSTEM.

This is a REAL serious matter, and you have all the good cards in your hand.

Comcast has NO authority to mess with you using your own box, and everyone involved in this can get into a royal heap of trouble.

I doubt the suits at Comcast's main offices want these people to drag them into a big mess like this.

Stand tall and don't wimp out, and don't become an agent for the dark side of the force.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

jbkendrick said:


> Thanks for the reply Rich. How much are they charging for the first card? Comcast told me the first would be $7.99 and if I needed a second, it would be another $7.99. I told them that is almost as much as a DVR rental and didn't make sense. I told them I thought the first should be free, but I was willing to pay for the second card. Of course, after reading the messages here, I should have negotiated a bit more.
> 
> I will take your advice, and keep working on it, especially since TiVo was concerned enough to call Comcast with me. John


IIRC our first cable card is free, the second (in our Series3) is $1.50 and the third ("M" card) in our TiVo HD is another $1.50.

But, and it's a big BUT...Comcast is no where near consistent across the country. The local companies are often the result of Comcast gobbling up smaller enterprises and assimilating them (yes, they ARE Borg ). So that means they often keep the same pricing/operating structure that was in place at the time. So some folks here are paying nothing for many cable cards and others are paying double digits. Go figure.

The Comcast CSR's I've talked to on the phone are corporate/centralized and do their best to deal with the local operators, but sometimes not all goes as planned.

Hang in there. As long as you have a ticket open with TiVo they won't cut you off at the knees if your issues aren't solved within the 30 day warranty period.

Good luck and keep us posted! :up:


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

bdraw said:


> Then somehow swap the Multistream CableCARD from the Comcast DVR with the single stream -- maybe let the installer install them both. Then wait a week and return the DVR. It'll take them some time to figure out what has happened and by then you won't care because you'll have your M-card.


The DVR card won't work in the TiVo for a couple of reasons.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Make your life easy. Call Comcast. Do not confuse them, Don't say multicard. Don't say M-Card. 

Just order a CableCARD. 

That's do-able. CableCARDs are on the pricing sheet.

The tech that arrives will have M-Cards. You'll need one.

I have two M-Cards. The second one, which I, of course, ordered in the first place, took 3 hours to track down.

Don't get me started about how a few years back I went ballistic after arguing for 15 minutes with the Comcast sales prevention rep who insisted I could not order an HD set top box to get to the optical output for Dolby digital audio if I didn't have an HD TV.


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## szurlo (Jul 11, 2002)

It's all a complete crap shoot, from provider to provider and even from market to market for the same provider. I asked Time Warner Cable for 2 S-cards and they brought one M-card. Took all day to get it working but it works. They charge me $2.54 a month for it. 
For some, a cablecard install is a one trip instant joy experience and for others it is a protracted, excruciating exercise in frustration. Unfortunately, your mileage, as they say, may vary


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

netringer said:


> The tech that arrives will have M-Cards. You'll need one.


No offense, but why would you make such a statement?  As previously mentioned, the OP's local Comcast office may or may not have "M" cable cards. It doesn't sound like they do have them (many still don't). In addition, although it would be nice if they did, he does not "_need_" one. TiVo will work perfectly fine w/2 "S" cards.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

richsadams said:


> No offense, but why would you make such a statement?  As previously mentioned, the OP's local Comcast office may or may not have "M" cable cards. It doesn't sound like they do have them (many still don't). In addition, although it would be nice if they did, he does not "_need_" one. TiVo will work perfectly fine w/2 "S" cards.


I made such a statement because in my case M cards are all they had. You're right that another office may have the old S-cards.

My tech said that they had kinds of problems with S-Cards and weren't buying them any more.

It is true in the world of Comcast you can't assume anything other than the customers (here) will know a lot more answers than the employees do.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

netringer said:


> It is true in the world of Comcast you can't assume anything other than the customers (here) will know a lot more answers than the employees do.


Sad, but often very true.


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## GadgetVirtuoso (Sep 27, 2001)

This will sound like an unusual solution but go to twitter and add comcastcares, there is a guy that is upper management using that account and has helped number of people get around these messed up CS issues, sometimes the same day.


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## Brad Bishop (Sep 11, 2001)

My install took 2 months:

The first month was them visiting about once a week to try various cards. I tried to get them to just do a single M-Card but they couldn't get it right so, finally, when they got 2 S-Cards working I said, "Ok, it's cheaper for me to pay the $1.50/month over the next X number of years than it is for me to take any more time off dealing with this nonsense."

The second month was the frustrating 'fix the billing' problem with 2 S-Cards as they:
- wanted to treat it as a full second digital outlet
- could understand what I was saying but couldn't figure out how to make the system take it.
- at one point one representative figured I had been stealing cable and ordered a full audit of my account/services (what?)
- would understand the problem, fix the previous month's billing, and then try a fix that, invariably, wouldn't work

Those three things cycled on various calls. I -finally- found a lady who said, "Hold on...," got up from her desk and went to ask a supervisor what to do. She then came back and said, "Oh, it's a special 'tivo-code' which I have to put in - then you get it for $1.50/month." She fixed it, and I've been paying $1.50/month since.

What's weird is that I know a CSR in the cable service and got the impression from a few of the cable guys I spoke with who have the attitude that it's simply wrong for TiVo to be allowed to be hooked up to their cable system. Seems to me that they're simply selling services. They treat it like it's a crime against their Comcast church which they can do nothing about.

Hopefully, if you end up with 2 S-Cards, you can ask the CSR to go lookup the 'Tivo Code' for billing so you won't have to deal with what I did.

The fact that this stuff is this hard is incredibly stupid. You should be able to drop by the cable company, pick up your cards, plug them into your TiVo, call them and tell them the numbers, and it all should just work (including billing).


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## ComcastCares (Jan 4, 2009)

Email my team, include what you have been through, phone number on the account and contact number. We will escalate your concern to the right people.

I apologize for the trouble.

Frank Eliason
Comcast
[email protected]


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

If you're trying to explain to Comcast what you want to do, this Comcast help page might be useful:

http://www.comcast.com/customers/faq/FaqDetails.ashx?ID=2651&fss=cablecard



> *How much will I be charged to use a CableCARD?*
> 
> There is no charge for the first CableCARD that you use as it is already included in the primary outlet fee. If you have a multi-card device on the same outlet (i.e. TiVo Series 3 or two Digital Cable Tuners connected to the same personal computer), you will be charged an additional regulated fee of up to $2.05 for the second CableCARD.
> 
> ...


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

ComcastCares said:


> Email my team, include what you have been through, phone number on the account and contact number. We will escalate your concern to the right people.
> 
> I apologize for the trouble.
> 
> ...


Frank,

Thank you for taking the time to set up an account and post here! If you can help, I'm sure that there are a lot of Comcast users who appreciate any assistance you can give them especially related to Comcast cableCARD setup and billing with TiVos!

Scott


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Brad Bishop said:


> ... I -finally- found a lady who said, "Hold on...," got up from her desk and went to ask a supervisor what to do. She then came back and said, "Oh, it's a special 'tivo-code' which I have to put in - then you get it for $1.50/month." She fixed it, and I've been paying $1.50/month since.
> 
> What's weird is that I know a CSR in the cable service and got the impression from a few of the cable guys I spoke with who have the attitude that it's simply wrong for TiVo to be allowed to be hooked up to their cable system. Seems to me that they're simply selling services. They treat it like it's a crime against their Comcast church which they can do nothing about.
> ...
> ...


Considering that CableCARDs were supposed to be the standard way that all kinds of manufacturers could free their customers from having to have a (Comcast-crappy) set top cable box, that they call it a "tivo code" is truly sad. We have a Sony* CRT HDTV that has a CableCARD slot. Note that the CableCARD fee is clearly listed int he Comcast literature. It doesn't say "Tivo fee."

BTW, Comcast feels ripped off because by CableCARD because you don't have 1/3 of the guide screen containing ads, you can make nonsense and non-subscribed channels disappear, and you don't buy profitable On Demand content.

The AUDIT THIS ACCOUNT suspicion comes from the empty-headed rep thinking that you must be stealing if you don't have a monthly box rental fee...you know - the whole reason that FCC forced them to offer CableCARD.

(* Drift: If any company thinks you're stealing from them it has to be Sony being "forced" to allow a device that isn't proprietary to Sony. The TV is OK, though. The flash card slot is Memory Stick. We have nothing else that uses one.)


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## abmcconnell (Aug 24, 2005)

Hi,

Comcast was here 3 times back in Sep to get my Tivo S3 configured. Finally found out that the first two installers they sent out were subcontractors and only had multi cards. My unit needed 2- single cards and were only stockpiled at the Comcast warehouse, not the subcontractors warehouse. further, only Comcast technicians could get the cards I needed and come and install them.

Not sure Comcast has a similar setup in your area, but you might ask. At least here in MA they've got options.

After the cards were installed by the real Comcast gents, all has worked quite well.

Good luck. -Alex


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

abmcconnell said:


> Hi,
> 
> Comcast was here 3 times back in Sep to get my Tivo S3 configured. Finally found out that the first two installers they sent out were subcontractors and only had multi cards. My unit needed 2- single cards <snip>


TiVo Series3's work fine with two "M" cable cards as well.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

pdhenry said:


> I watched as the CSR entered an order for an M-Card to be installed into my TiVo next weekend. I'll let them install two S-Cards only if they don't assess the charge for a second CableCard .


I have 2 S-Cards in my Series 3 - each at $0.00 on my Comcast Digital Starter package.


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## jbkendrick (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks Matthew. I was actually contacted by this person on Twitter after I mentioned my problem in a public tweet. He must have some type of search for Comcast alerting him to these messages. I replied and he said that he would pass the issue on to his team.

My wife received a call from a Comcast Supervisor today who said that they were going to send someone tomorrow from inhouse (I assume as compared with a contractor) and would make sure they brought working cable cards with them. We'll update the thread tomorrow night. Thanks again, John


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## jbkendrick (Jan 3, 2009)

Rich - I assume that since there are only two tuners, there is no advantage to having two M cards vs two S cards. Is that correct? Thanks, John


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

jbkendrick said:


> Rich - I assume that since there are only two tuners, there is no advantage to having two M cards vs two S cards. Is that correct? Thanks, John


John, you are correct sir. IIRC M cards can handle and deliver up to seven signals (wouldn't that be sweet?) but TiVo HD/HDXL's are only able to process two and Series3 only one per card.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jbkendrick said:


> Rich - I assume that since there are only two tuners, there is no advantage to having two M cards vs two S cards. Is that correct? Thanks, John


Not Rich but,
Yes that is correct. one Mcard can handle unencrypting 6 digital streams to hand off to tuners. with only two tuners the limitation is there. 
The TiVo series 3 was originally designed to use one Mcard in slot A or two Scards and that way each tuner would get a digital stream to get the channel form and record it. Fortunately TiVo did allow that 2 Mcards can go one in each slot but they each just hand off one of their digital streams to a tuner and the two tuner limitation still keeps it at just 2 recordings at one time.

Something is glitchy in the original S3 cable card hardware/firmware though and the S3 goes flaky if just one Mcard is in place. This glitch was circumvented in some way in the Tivo HD so it can use the original design opf one Mcard or 2 Scards just fine.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ComcastCares said:


> Email my team, include what you have been through, phone number on the account and contact number. We will escalate your concern to the right people.
> 
> I apologize for the trouble.
> 
> ...





jbkendrick said:


> Thanks Matthew. I was actually contacted by this person on Twitter after I mentioned my problem in a public tweet. He must have some type of search for Comcast alerting him to these messages. I replied and he said that he would pass the issue on to his team.


he even came here and created a Comcastcares userid. Seems like Comcast is moving in the right direction for you now.


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## mayall (Oct 6, 2004)

Don't rule out a problem with the TiVo.

I have a Series 3 and an HD. My service is from Santa Cruz Comcast.

The Series 3 needs Scards and worked immediately.

The HD can use either type of card. But the second tuner of the HD would not work with either Scards or an Mcard. After 3 visits by Comcast (I figured they must be at fault, right?), I called TiVo. They thought it was probably the TiVo. I returned the TiVo and the new one worked.

Will Mayall


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

ComcastCares said:


> Email my team, include what you have been through, phone number on the account and contact number. We will escalate your concern to the right people.
> 
> I apologize for the trouble.
> 
> ...


Hi Frank - glad to see someone from Comcast here finally!

You may want to check out the last couple pages of this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316310


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## jbkendrick (Jan 3, 2009)

OK, here is my report. Comcast has been out two more times since my last post. Yesterday they were here for 3 1/2 hours if you can believe it. I wasn't home, but my wife gave me the report. This time it was an in-house technician who showed up with some cable cards that he tried to get to work for hours. Per my direction, my wife got him on the phone with TiVo, but they couldn't really help much. He told her, just like the previous technicians, that he probably had bad cards. He tried one S and one M together that he said he knew were working, but that combination didn't work. So he left telling her he'd be back today.

Today, two inhouse techs showed up and finally got the TiVo working with Comcast. The cards worked but still couldn't get all the premium channels. They traced that problem to the Comcast person in the office. Apparently they were typing the wrong host name/number and sending information to someone else's box. So after an hour plus by two more techs, I finally have all my channels on TiVo.

I have to give Comcast credit for not giving up, but this is a crazy situation. They spent about 8 hours over the phone and four separate visits to get this working. If this happens to many people they've got to be losing money - perhaps that's why the cable bill is so high.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who commented and put up with my rants. I'm going down to do some channel surfing now!!! John


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## hettyhaden (Jan 14, 2009)

John,
where in Maryland do you live, if you don't mind me asking.
When we first got our Tivo HD (dual head), after having an older TiVo for years, (which we relegated to a 2nd TV in the bedroom with no HD) we had the exact same headache and problems getting ours to work as you did.
The Comcast folks did eventually get the two S-cards to work.
They had to send out a "dedicated Senior technician" to get it right.
This transpired over several days, including one entire day wasted when the promised technician didn't show up. Like you, the tech was here for hours.
Now we have the constant problem of the expanded digital channels "disappearing". The black screen appears behind the Guide. This happens at least once a week. We had to have the signal resent to the box the first time it happened, but now we have to restart the system every time in order to restore the channels. This happens only to channels 100-200. The HD channels do not have this problem. Have you ever experienced this?
It's very frustrating when you have set up something for TiVo to get on the Military channel or Bio, and you get nothing. 
Have other Maryland Comcast subscribers had this problem?


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## rwcmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Awk! I feel your pain; I posted this last week, and it sounds similar to your situation. I also emailed the Comcast VP of CS and received a vmail yesterday from an employee apologizing for the frustration and confusion. Cleary the employee did not understand the technical aspects of my situation and referred broadly to "card issues" and Tivo. Although he mentioned a credit to my account, he failed to give me any information on a resolution. 
I like you, feel I should return my Tivo since it is worthless at this point.
Good luck!



rwcmom said:


> Thought I would share my unfortunate experience and end result  with Series 3 & Comcast multistream cable card install. We purchased a new HD TV and thought it was time to upgrade to Tivo HD.
> Similar to the many posts here, I attempted a self install. I went through 3 cable cards on my own phoning tech support numerous times. Each time I was told by Ccast "the card was paired on our end". Meanwhile several calls to Tivo tech support insisted the card was not paired and I continue to receive what my kids angrily call the "spinning peppermint wheel of death" as the dvr painfully attempts to acquire a cable signal.
> 
> After 8 days of nightly phone calls, I finally had a Ccast tech out last night. He went through 2 more cards before phoning dispatch. He was promptly told by "dispatch" that the known software issue from Dec '08 (which allows Comcast to send and receive signals to the card) is still not resolved. No cards can be paired due to this. This problem apparently spans San Fran to Monterey in CA. It is not the card, it is not Tivo, it is the lack of organization within Comcast to get their software up to speed.
> ...


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## Ron-retread (Jan 21, 2009)

My TiVo was in shipment, I walked into the Comcast office in Milpitas and asked for an M-Card for a Tivo, the lady was very courteous, walked into the back room and returned with a new card. I got the TiVo the next Monday, got it all set up with the latest software. Tuesday I installed the cablecard, called 1-800-COMCAST and told the CSR I wanted to activate an M-card for a Tivo. He didn't hesitate, asked me for the data, I gave it to him. He had a problem activating it, and asked me to repeat the numbers, I did, he fixed a typo and activated it. He hung on while I did the channel scan, check out NTSC, Clear QAM and enctypted channels, and everything went fine. It took less than 10 minutes, and he was very courteous. Great experience with Comcast and the CableCard.


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## PaJo (Dec 17, 2001)

Comcast truly sucks, I hope FIOS soon becomes available and I can switch. Getting a Mcard installed in our HD Tivo was a real challenge, not because of any problem with the Tivo, but rather Comcast. My most recent gripe is their billing. We had a price increase in November of last year, so I cut back on services and our December bill was $134.00 a lot better than the $200+ and I was pretty happy because I knew that once we returned their dvr and our HD Tivo was up our next bell would be even better. I was wrong, the bill this week was $179.00. They also charged me an additional 2 months of using dvr after it was returned...which they removed from the bill after I called them. I tried getting a current price list online but can't find it, when I contacted them they told me to use the FAQ online, but there is no price list, you have to go through the process of ordering and then try to figure out what is included in the packages. If DTV does go back to Tivo, I may go back to DTV - I do like using the Tivo.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

netringer said:


> Considering that CableCARDs were supposed to be the standard way that all kinds of manufacturers could free their customers from having to have a (Comcast-crappy) set top cable box, that they call it a "tivo code" is truly sad. We have a Sony* CRT HDTV that has a CableCARD slot. Note that the CableCARD fee is clearly listed int he Comcast literature. It doesn't say "Tivo fee."


There are very few, currently manufactured, TV sets that have a cable card slot. Moxi is just beginning to ship a cable card DVR. I suspect the vast majority of cable cards currently being installed are going into tivos.


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## Luckyp79 (Jan 18, 2009)

I am on Charter witch sucks. Even though TiVo is having a glitch problem that they are working on that causes our TiVos to freeze I think john should re post in bold caps saying he apologizes to TiVo for saying not to buy one. I had problems with Charter and after 5 visits over three days they finally "cold hit" the card and it worked. I think TiVo needs to add in the CC installers instructions as a tip.

If activating the CC does not work ask the cable company to "cold hit" or :cold initialize" the CC.

After the cable guy left I did a search for cold hit tivo or something along that line. I found that was the case for a lot of CC installs.


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## Rikkster (Jan 15, 2005)

I do have to say Comcast here in Mass has been VERY good with replacing cablecards when requested. They obviously can't fix the Tivo, but they have been very attentive with all I have asked of them.


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## beobuff (Feb 7, 2009)

I am in eastern MA and had Comcast install an M-card in my Tivo HD XL about two weeks ago. I have only basic analog cable. I initially tried to get two different CC service centers to give me an M-card over the counter, but both refused to do so and insisted that they send an installer to set up the card. The card is free, but they are billing me $17 for the truck roll, which was fair enough.

The tech was very courteous and knowledgable and the install went without incidence. Once he surmised I was a techie, he was very forthcoming about a lot of details regarding the local cable system, which CC inherited from Adelphia a few years back. He even spent a half hour outside replacing the notch filter and all connectors -- mine were pretty weathered after 20 years -- and provided me with some gratis high-end connector cables. I figure I got more than my money's worth from the visit. However, my experience turned up a couple of bits of interesting information that might be useful to others in this thread.

First, I had requested an "M-series" card at the service center and that is what was typed on the service order. The installer called me in advance of his visit to tell me that "M-series" is a Motorola-specific designation and that Comcast (at least in this area) doesn't use Motorola cards. It sounded to me like they had discontinued using Motorola cards because of QC or reliability issues. When I told him that he probably had Scientific Atlanta M-cards that would be functionally equivalent and equally suitable, I got his respect.

Second, the cable channels that I get using the M-card are a somewhat different assortment that those that I had previously been getting on my QAM-enabled LG3410A DVR. First, the LG provided a much larger assortment of QAM clear channels than the M-card does. With the latter, I get only the local major network affiliate OTA HDTV stations and nothing more. This is not an issue for me, since the PQ is really poor on these "HD" cable channels and I prefer to watch these stations OTA. Whether the change in channel selection is due to a new notch filter or the cable card technology is hard to say, but since I have one new useful cable channel and the ones lost were not of interest, I am not going to rock the boat with Comcast by filing a complaint.

However, what was more interesting is that several of the basic analog cable channels that I received before the M-card install both on the cardless Tivo and the LG (such as Lifetime), have disappeared; and two new analog cable channels, BET and TMC, that were previously not available to me are now being received. Since TMC offers a nice assortment of old vintage movies, I figure I came out ahead on the deal.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

beobuff said:


> It sounded to me like they had discontinued using Motorola cards because of QC or reliability issues.


No, Motorola cards work with Motorola headends. Cisco cards work with Cisco headends. Big Band and certain other manufacturers make flexible headend equipment which can be set up for either protocol, but a CATV provider cannot mix-and-match card types in the field. One is not a direct replacement for the other.



beobuff said:


> Second, the cable channels that I get using the M-card are a somewhat different assortment that those that I had previously been getting on my QAM-enabled LG3410A DVR. First, the LG provided a much larger assortment of QAM clear channels than the M-card does.


How do you know they are clear? If any QAM carrier is clear, the bit stream will be forwarded by a properly functioning CableCard even if the CableCard is not properly authorized. Thus, you should receive all unencrypted QAMs no matter what. A common symptom is the user receives all the channels on the basic tier, but no premiums or other than basic tier.



beobuff said:


> However, what was more interesting is that several of the basic analog cable channels that I received before the M-card install both on the cardless Tivo and the LG (such as Lifetime), have disappeared; and two new analog cable channels, BET and TMC, that were previously not available to me are now being received. Since TMC offers a nice assortment of old vintage movies, I figure I came out ahead on the deal.


Analog channels are not processed by the CableCard in any way. They aren't even received by the same tuner as digital channels.


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## mysigp226 (Nov 5, 2002)

I'm going on 30 days of waiting for my cards here in Chicago/Wheaton Comcast area.

I took the advice of the forum and called the support line and asked for _NOTHING_ other than an M-Card be delivered to my home and installed in my new Tivo. The lady on the phone was very nice, asked me how I liked my Tivo, said she loved hers, etc. But she informed me I had to wait 10 days for the next available appointment for the install. I said fine.

10 days later the tech shows up..and I kid you not...meets me at the door and says "What am I here for?". I tell him all he needs to do is install an M-card in my Tivo and he has a confused look on his face and says "I didn't bring any cablecards...your service order didn't say anything about cablecards". He and I look at the service order and the first line says:

1....T3DDVRCARDS ($1.50)

Then the "Notes to Technician" at the bottom say...

"B1 SFU AUDIT. CUST WILL LOSE B2, NEED TO UPSELL. TIVO SERIES 3 CARD (M-Series) 1.50/mo. ED CST OF BILLING. TIVO DUAL TUNER DVR."

He tells me the above information means he was suppose to install a new DVR in another room of my house and starts asking me about where I want the second line run. I told him I don't need anything but a cable-card. He says he'll need to reschedule. He calls the support line and tells me the next time they can come out is 10 days from now. I told him I can pick up the card myself if he tells me where. He says go to the customer service office about 2 blocks from my house.

I go to the service office and he reads my tech slip and says he doesn't understand why the guy didn't show with any cards...but there's nothing he can do since he doesn't have any and the tech should have known that. Only techs carry cards (shocker..since mine didnt). Says I should call the support number and ask for an earlier date and to escalate if needed.

I call the support number and talk to a rep who is also confused as to why the tech didn't show with cards. But tells me there's nothing she can do and I'll need to wait 10 days for my appointment. I ask to speak to a manager. She gives me an escalation number (#1107847) and says someone will call in an hour. 2 days later..no call. I call again and get a promise of a manager will call. No call.

So now I'm sitting 20 days after first calling for my cable card...waiting to see if the Tech shows today with working cards.

I've bet my wife that he will either show with _no_ cards again, or won't know how to install them..and then proceed to tell me to wait another 10 days for a "try again".

I'm expecting to be using the twitter, email to Rick Germano and the we_can_help email option in about an hour. 

I wouldn't have needed to go this route if Comcast didn't have such a crappy DVR.

-Tyler


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## mysigp226 (Nov 5, 2002)

Update. Just got off the phone with the Tech. They don't have any cards in the warehouse and he doesn't know when they'll get any. I'll have to call and reschedule. 

I win my bet!


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## kettleone (Feb 3, 2009)

I had the same sort of experience a couple of weeks ago with Comcast. When I set up the appointment on the phone, the CSR was very nice. I asked for a M card but was told they don't use them. I said whatever, 2 S cards will be fine. 

The tech showed up for a Sunday appointment (which was nice) and had absolutely no idea he was there for a cablecard install. He thought I needed a new cable modem. Luckily he was real helpful and called all the techs on duty and found an M card. After going back and forth with the home office a few times, they finally got all my channels to show up. I thanked him and felt very lucky that it was working and that he was willing to make the effort to find a tech with a card.

I know my next battle will be with billing since I am pretty sure I heard them say a second CableCard is an extra $7 or so. When I get the bill I will fight that but at least the thing is working.

It really should not be this difficult.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

mysigp226 said:


> Update. Just got off the phone with the Tech. They don't have any cards in the warehouse and he doesn't know when they'll get any. I'll have to call and reschedule.
> 
> I win my bet!


They have plenty of cards -- they're just all in cable boxes. Suggest to them that they pull a card out of a cable box. You get your card and whenever they get new cards in, they can put one back in the cable box.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

sinanju said:


> They have plenty of cards -- they're just all in cable boxes. Suggest to them that they pull a card out of a cable box. You get your card and whenever they get new cards in, they can put one back in the cable box.


Not sure about what they have in the OP's area, but here the Moto boxes and DVR's don't use cable cards so they may be (as surprising as it may seem sometimes) telling the truth. What a hassle though.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

As a result of the FCC requirement all new SA and Motorola boxes have cable cards inside them.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

pdhenry said:


> As a result of the FCC requirement all new SA and Motorola boxes have cable cards inside them.


Ah...I haven't played with one in a while now...but it was very painful experience when I did. :down:


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

pdhenry said:


> As a result of the FCC requirement all new SA and Motorola boxes have cable cards inside them.


Most cable companies pre-authorize the cards in a cable box, and they generally can't be re-assigned to different devices. Since they are setup differently than cablecards in a TiVo or other device, these cards will not generally be able to be authorized very easily on a device other than the original cable box.


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## mysigp226 (Nov 5, 2002)

Update....so after I sent off my emails to the various comcast folks the Tech called back and said he was at the warehouse and found some cards. He and another guy came out and got everything working.

See..I knew it wasn't difficult. Just took some effort.

The two guys were from ATC (contractor) and were very professional. Not sure if they are required to, but they walked the entire cable line and replaced a missing ground wire and an old splitter. Took some pictures too.

Now if this had just happened the first time I'd be praising comcast instead of starting my story with..well it sucked at first.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

mysigp226 said:


> Update....so after I sent off my emails to the various comcast folks the Tech called back and said he was at the warehouse and found some cards. He and another guy came out and got everything working.


Thanks for checking back in. At least there's a happy ending now and then! :up:


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## westtown73 (Nov 11, 2007)

Who's the culprit here? I have a Tivo HD and my provider is Comcast. My initial cable setup about a year ago consisted of 2 s-cards. Everything was fine until about a week ago. I left home with a fine picture but when I returned a few hours later the screen was grey with the "searching for signal" message bar on the screen. However, my internet service was fine as was the analog TV feed. A week later and several Comcast visits, it appears that I have an intermittent loss of the digital TV signal. It will be on for a few hours and look great, and then go off again and I never lose my Internet. Comcast has be reasonably helpful and did the following: 1) boosted the signal at the pole, 2) replaced the cable from the splitter to the TIVO, 3) replaced the S-card with a Motorola m-card. None of these fixed the problem. So who is the culprit here? The cable card? Is my TIVO broken? Is the wire from the pole bad? Any advice would be appreciated.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Do you have the same problem on all digital channels? If so, then the TiVo and the CableCards are the most suspect. If only on some digital channels, then the CableCard is most suspect. If you receive all the digital local and basic (unencrypted) channels without problems, it would tend to point toward a configuration issue, except that you say the problem is intermittent. Unusually high or low levels could cause a loss of picture, but usually it would result in more varied and more highly intermittent issues. 'Not being on the scene and without more specific information, I can't really make a very good analysis.


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## theviaumaster (Feb 24, 2009)

westtown73 said:


> Who's the culprit here? I have a Tivo HD and my provider is Comcast. My initial cable setup about a year ago consisted of 2 s-cards. Everything was fine until about a week ago. I left home with a fine picture but when I returned a few hours later the screen was grey with the "searching for signal" message bar on the screen. However, my internet service was fine as was the analog TV feed. A week later and several Comcast visits, it appears that I have an intermittent loss of the digital TV signal. It will be on for a few hours and look great, and then go off again and I never lose my Internet. Comcast has be reasonably helpful and did the following: 1) boosted the signal at the pole, 2) replaced the cable from the splitter to the TIVO, 3) replaced the S-card with a Motorola m-card. None of these fixed the problem. So who is the culprit here? The cable card? Is my TIVO broken? Is the wire from the pole bad? Any advice would be appreciated.


Not sure, but I think you're having the same problem I am--losing digital channels but analog and internet are fine. There's a thread here with a ton of info on this issue, but I can't post the link because I don't have enough posts.  Anyway, the name of the thread is "New TiVo HD losing all channels - getting gray screen on cablecard". The number is 413206. Good luck!


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## westtown73 (Nov 11, 2007)

Yes, as soon as I posted here I went to recent posts and found the other thread. I agree that's where I should have posted this and have re-posted it there. I can't believe that the one time Tivo appears to be the problem according to the other thread, Comcast never once blamed the problem on them. What is this world coming to?


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

beobuff said:


> they are billing me $17 for the truck roll


Hmm, I just called to schedule an cablecard install and they told me it would be $38. That's higher than I expected. Anyone know if there is supposed to be a set price for this? I know they published a pricing list for the last rate increase, but of course I can't find it on comcast.com.


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## mohanman (Dec 18, 2007)

Report them to the FCC, that is the only way I could get cablecards for my setup from Comcrap


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

spocko said:


> Hmm, I just called to schedule an cablecard install and they told me it would be $38. That's higher than I expected. Anyone know if there is supposed to be a set price for this? I know they published a pricing list for the last rate increase, but of course I can't find it on comcast.com.


There's just no consistency between Comcast service areas. Again, it's usually the result of a local company being assimilated and Comcast keeping the existing price structure...as long as it's as much or more of course.  You could give the regular CS number a call and complain. They might cut you a break.



mohanman said:


> Report them to the FCC, that is the only way I could get cablecards for my setup from Comcrap


 If you're referring to Spocko's post it appears that he doesn't have an issue getting cable cards, just how much they'll charge him to come out and install them.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

richsadams said:


> If you're referring to Spocko's post it appears that he doesn't have an issue getting cable cards, just how much they'll charge him to come out and install them.


That's correct. I already have one cablecard in a TV, so I know they support them. They installed that one for free since I was upgrading from analog to digital at that time. This time they're not feeling so generous. I did expect to have to pay for a truck roll this time, but I expected to pay less than $38.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

spocko said:


> That's correct. I already have one cablecard in a TV, so I know they support them. They installed that one for free since I was upgrading from analog to digital at that time. This time they're not feeling so generous. I did expect to have to pay for a truck roll this time, but I expected to pay less than $38.


They charge $14.99 in our area. Kind of makes you wonder.


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## poobear011 (Feb 27, 2009)

want to buy a tivo but scared. with my hdtv i just connect to the coax cable receive all channels & 70 plus qam channels. after i get a tivo will i lose the qam channels and i will need 2 cards can some one tell me what kind of cards i shall ask around if comcast dosent want to help

jim // sugar land tx


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

I called Comcast back and they wouldn't budge from the $38 cablecard install fee. That is the standard "hourly service charge" rate for my area, and that's what they want to charge. All other published trip charges are less except for initial primary installation. The guy I talked too also fed me all kinds of BS to try to discourage me from using a cablecard at all. I imagine that the install fee is also intentionally high to help discourage cablecard use. 

So I think the conclusion is that while comcast does support cablecards, it is very reluctant support. Strangely, when I got my first cablecard about a year ago, I didn't get any resistance at that time. Perhaps there has been a policy shift to try to discourage cablecard (and hence Tivo) use.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

spocko said:


> So I think the conclusion is that while comcast does support cablecards, it is very reluctant support. Strangely, when I got my first cablecard about a year ago, I didn't get any resistance at that time. Perhaps there has been a policy shift to try to discourage cablecard (and hence Tivo) use.


No reason to think otherwise. Verizon is happy to take their business.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

richsadams said:


> No reason to think otherwise. Verizon is happy to take their business.


If Verizon was available in my area, they'd probably already have taken my business away from Comcast.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

spocko said:


> If Verizon was available in my area, they'd probably already have taken my business away from Comcast.


Yep, a new sheriff just came to our neighborhood and we're just about to jump ship ourselves.


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## beobuff (Feb 7, 2009)

spocko said:


> I did expect to have to pay for a truck roll this time, but I expected to pay less than $38.


Jeez, for that kind of money they should send out a female installer who can also provide a lap dance.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

jbkendrick said:


> I have spent the last week trying to get a multistream card for my new TiVo HD XL. After several hours on the phone with Comcast call takers and supervisors, and waiting around at home for techs to show up for the last two days, and each time the tech shows up with single stream cards that don't work, I am getting quite frustrated.
> 
> Comcast, even their supervisors, are playing dumb acting like they don't know what a multstream card is, and only agreeing to send a tech out after I site the FCC regulation. The techs say when they arrive that they can't get the cards, and the single stream cards they have in stock are mostly damaged. They also state that there is nothing on the work order that indicates a multistream is needed, even though the supervisors say they put it in the order.
> 
> ...


In reading this thread your title was misleading. Comcast didnt refuse you cable cards they just didnt kiss your ass the way you wanted them too.
That being said if the title is misleading my guess would be eveything else you wrote is as well.

I call B/S!

Its sad, it gives us newbies a bad rep.


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## Xunaka (Feb 17, 2009)

The thing is and this goes with any provider,

The TiVo is a third party piece of equipment that you went out and purchased on your own. The companies support and service their own equipment and are trained in repair/usage and troubleshooting.

The providers only responsiblity is really getting the signal to you at that point, what the TiVo does or does not do, as well as any issues you incur on result of using it are your issues. 

You are given best effort support for the TiVo but in the end it's third party equipment and they have no responsiblity to you resolve issues on equipment thats not theirs.

The reality is.. cable cards are a dated terrible technology that was forced upon cable companies by the FCC to satisfy an alternate method of decoding 256 QAM. While cable boxes have cards in them OCAP technology is far far different than cable card technology.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

The FCC requires Comcast to provide cable cards to TiVo owners (and owners of any other technology that has a cable card slot). Are you trying to argue that they have no obligation to make the cable cards work? 

In my own case the problem was caused by Comcast incorrectly setting up my account for their cable card. The TiVo did and does work fine but I had no cable service with it because Comcast didn't do their part right.

Yes, the TiVo being a third-party piece of equipment makes it easy for Comcast to throw up their hands and say it's too hard to make it work, but their obligation doesn't end there.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

I'm about ready to turn my cablecards back in, too much hassle...


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Xunaka said:


> You are given best effort support for the TiVo but in the end it's third party equipment and they have no responsiblity to you resolve issues on equipment thats not theirs.


The FCC would beg to differ.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

poobear011 said:


> want to buy a tivo but scared. with my hdtv i just connect to the coax cable receive all channels & 70 plus qam channels. after i get a tivo will i lose the qam channels and i will need 2 cards can some one tell me what kind of cards i shall ask around if comcast dosent want to help
> 
> jim // sugar land tx


Why would think you lose the QAM channels?

You get everything that can be tuned - Clear QAM & clear analog (where needed), and encrypted/premium from the CableCARD. You just have no easy way to know how it's being tuned. They're all just channels in the guide.


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## Xunaka (Feb 17, 2009)

rainwater said:


> The FCC would beg to differ.


The FCC would be wrong then, you should understand how the cable act works .. All the company is required to do is make cable cards available and support the card themselves

Any issue with third party equipment past that is not their problem, the cost of training a technician to be able to service a TiVo when it's such a small population of people is not economically viable. Also assuming of liability for your property is not something any company will do, all they have to do is install the cards and make sure they're paired to the host.. Anything beyond that is done as a courtesy to you by the company.

Like I said, Cable cards are a dated terrible technology which is slowing down the progression of HFC networks, because dated technology has to be serviced and supported..

The OCAP true 2 way technology employed by the new cable boxes, far exceeds anything that a cable card will be able to match.

Clear QAM is also a courtesy provided by the company, they are not obligated to provide unencrypted HD feeds for any networks, only the base level networks must be provided and carried.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree with pdhenry. Comcast is obligated by the FCC to support cablecards. They should make a reasonable effort to train their staff to support cablecards on their system. Unfortunately they don't, because they really don't have to.

I just had my install done today, and it was pretty sad. The installer they sent was a contractor who knew nothing about cablecards. He admitted that he had received no training on cablecards, he didn't know what any of the info in the cablecard menus meant, didn't know how to tell if it was working, and he literally asked me "what does a cablecard do". I had the Tivo setup and ready to go when he got here. It took just a couple of minutes to plug in a card and call it in. If it had been done right, he could have been out of here in 5 min. Of course it didn't work after the first try because it wasn't done right. It took another several phone calls and 40 min to get it paired and authorized correctly in the Comcast system. When it wasn't working, the tech spoke to his supervisor (at the contractor company) who told him that sometimes it takes a while to register on the system, so we should unplug and reboot the Tivo, then wait 24 hours, then call back if it still wasn't working. I knew that was bad advice. Fortunately the tech finally decided to call Comcast directly and that person was able to get it working. They found one of the pairing numbers was wrong, and they also said it had to be identified in their system as a Tivo. I think they originally had it setup in the system as if it was one of their own cable boxes. I feel very fortunate that they got it working on the first trip.

I give Comcast 2 thumbs down for their effort here. 1) They should train their techs on how to install cablecards, even if it's only a few designated techs in each area. 2) They really should allow self install, there's no technical reason not to. That would have saved time an money for both them and me.

For anyone doing a new cablecard install, here are a few tips:

- If the card is not setup properly, you may receive the clear QAM channels that are available on your system (only the local channels in most areas) and they will probably be mapped to the correct channel numbers, but the encrypted channels will not be received.

- When the card is setup properly, my experience is that the encrypted channels will show up within a few min, no need to wait hours or days to see if they magically start working.

- If the card is not working properly, most likely it is not paired or authorized properly in the Comcast system. This is much more likely than a bad cablecard. Have the tech call and recheck the host and data numbers in the Comcast system against those shown on the cablecard pairing screen on the Tivo. Make sure they know that the card is in a Tivo and not a Comcast box. If you can receive any encrypted channel, i.e. ESPN, then the card is paired properly. If you are still missing some channels, then make sure the card is authorized for whatever channel package you are subscribed to.

- Be patient but persistent. They should be able to get it working eventually. Don't give up an settle for one of their DVRs instead of Tivo. The Tivo box itself is quite impressive, and it's worth the effort to set it up.

Sorry for the long post. Besides just venting here, I hope this info can help someone else.

Edit: 
I just discovered that there is an official "Comcast cablecard" thread: 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316310
Sorry if my post is out of place here.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Xunaka said:


> The FCC would be wrong then, you should understand how the cable act works .. All the company is required to do is make cable cards available and support the card themselves


Yes, and since all S3 TiVos are cablelabs approved, supporting cablecards in these devices is no different than the activation process in any other cablelabs approved device.


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## Scyber (Apr 25, 2002)

spocko said:


> If Verizon was available in my area, they'd probably already have taken my business away from Comcast.


Well if comcasts truck roll fee bothered you, you will be floored by Verizon's $80 truck roll fee. No charge for the initial install, but if you add a cablecard device after the initial install, its $80.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

Scyber said:


> Well if comcasts truck roll fee bothered you, you will be floored by Verizon's $80 truck roll fee. No charge for the initial install, but if you add a cablecard device after the initial install, its $80.


Not always the case, lets say you get a strange code on your FiOS STB, intermitten audio drops or pixelation and you make an appoinment for a FiOS tech to come out to diagnose and fix your issue. 
Between the time you make the appoinment and the time it takes for Verizon to get there you decide to buy a TiVo, while the tech is there they can install a cable card for you in your TiVo. No truck roll fee because you had a different FiOS related issue that brought the tech out...*Creative Thinking*


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Xunaka said:


> The TiVo is a third party piece of equipment that you went out and purchased on your own.


And what do you think a TV is?



Xunaka said:


> The companies support and service their own equipment and are trained in repair/usage and troubleshooting.


Having been an engineer working for a CATV system, I can tell you the reality often falls far short of this ideal.



Xunaka said:


> The providers only responsiblity is really getting the signal to you at that point, what the TiVo does or does not do, as well as any issues you incur on result of using it are your issues.


How does that relate to the discussion at hand?



Xunaka said:


> You are given best effort support for the TiVo but in the end it's third party equipment and they have no responsiblity to you resolve issues on equipment thats not theirs.


Fortunately, federal laws have something far different to say on the matter. The CATV company bears no responsibility to fix any malfunctioning 3rd party equipment, but if the 3rd party equipment - whether it is a TV, VCR, HD receiver, or a DVR is irrelevant - is functioning within standard specifications, then it most certainly is the CATV company's responsibility to deliver service to the unit. Note this is not only federal regulations, but it is also CableLabs policy, and all CATV companies are required to support any units certified by CableLabs.



Xunaka said:


> The reality is.. cable cards are a dated terrible technology that was forced upon cable companies by the FCC to satisfy an alternate method of decoding 256 QAM. While cable boxes have cards in them OCAP technology is far far different than cable card technology.


I'm afraid you haven't a clue of what you speak. CableLabs - which is a consortium of over 100 Cable TV operators, including every MSO in the nation - developed CableCards, not the FCC, and OCAP (also developed by CableLabs) is entirely based upon OpenCable specifications, comprised mostly of CableCard 1.0 and 2.0.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> I'm afraid you haven't a clue of what you speak. <snip>


Thanks for that, well said. I only know enough to be dangerous and even I didn't know where to start. We were all newbies once and most have good intentions. You were much kinder than most would have been. :up:


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## Xunaka (Feb 17, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> And what do you think a TV is?
> 
> Having been an engineer working for a CATV system, I can tell you the reality often falls far short of this ideal.
> 
> ...


While your effort is somewhat commendable your knowledge is far far lacking. First off nobody said the FCC made cable cards, they simply enforced regulations making cable card support mandatory.

Secondly OCAP technology, is not based off cable card 1.0 or 2.0 because they work on a single frequency in only connection, they are not able to pull information from the source.. Why do you think guide data, SDV, on demand do not work on cable cards?

Thirdly.. any outside equipment installed at a home, is not the cable companies responsibility.. it ends once the cable service is on and active and working correctly in the home of a customer. Anything from there issues occurred on a VCR/DVD/TiVo/DvR surround sound are not their problem. It's common sense.

While you might have been an engineer, you probably weren't a good one.. Sorry


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

If Comcast does not correctly provision the account for the cable card, has Comcast met their obligation?

You are advocating a situation where all Comcast has to do is say "OMG, a TiVo! I'll stick the card in but after that you're on your own!" without any impetus for Comcast to fix the problem in those cases where they have failed to do their back-end part correctly. And that does happen, trust me.


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## Xunaka (Feb 17, 2009)

pdhenry said:


> If Comcast does not correctly provision the account for the cable card, has Comcast met their obligation?
> 
> You are advocating a situation where all Comcast has to do is say "OMG, a TiVo! I'll stick the card in but after that you're on your own!" without any impetus for Comcast to fix the problem in those cases where they have failed to do their back-end part correctly. And that does happen, trust me.


I'm saying all they really have to do is install the cable cards, then pair them to the TiVo at that point.. there isn't much more they can do.. guided setup etc..

But any issues after that are really the crappy cable card technology.

Where as a tuning adapter persay is a piece of equipment owned by the cable company.. they have to fully troubleshoot and support that equipment beyond just making sure its provisoned


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

You are ignorant of the issues that cause CC installs to fail.

When a failed install is repairerd by a Comcast tech calling the secret number for "connectivity" that he keeps in his pocket, and suddenly everything works, how is this a crappy cable card issue?

When Comcast hires 3rd party installers whio have never seen a CC before, how is this a crappy cable card issue?


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

pdhenry said:


> You are ignorant...


Could have stopped there...but no...


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## Xunaka (Feb 17, 2009)

pdhenry said:


> You are ignorant of the issues that cause CC installs to fail.
> 
> When a failed install is repairerd by a Comcast tech calling the secret number for "connectivity" that he keeps in his pocket, and suddenly everything works, how is this a crappy cable card issue?
> 
> When Comcast hires 3rd party installers whio have never seen a CC before, how is this a crappy cable card issue?


They have to call the number,It's called calling dispatch to pair the equipment to your TiVo unit, your TiVo displays a Host number and the cards have their own number which must be paired. The host number and cable ID # only appear after the cards are inserted.

Calling that number does nothing for terms of changing anything, all they are doing is talking to someone who has access to the billing system open, they then pair the cards to the host and send hits. A cable card cannot be remotely addressed, it's one way communication.

All technicians also have a number they call that goes to advanced technical support, for things they do not normally run into. Sorry but cable card users represent less than 1% of the population of cable TV users.

There are a total of 3 situations that can occur on a cable card installation

A: The cable cards are bad, which is why the technican should usually have more than 2 (S series) 
B: The Forward Carrier, QAM or SN/R are off in which case line work is done (that is comcast responsiblity)
C: The TiVo unit itself is bad

1/3 of those situations comcast can control, thats making sure your signal is good.. Cable cards are dated and old they are hit and miss, they have a responsiblity to give you ones that work yes, but it's not their fault the technology behind them is terrible.

Learn something about installation before claiming ignorance as you just proved yours.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

Xunaka said:


> 1/3 of those situations comcast can control, thats making sure your signal is good.. Cable cards are dated and old they are hit and miss, they have a responsiblity to give you ones that work yes, but it's not their fault the technology behind them is terrible.


There may be three possible problems, but they do not occur in equal quantities. My own experience with Comcast and the experiences I've read from others indicate (1) a surprising number of bad cards and (2) an astonishing ignorance at Comcast concerning the proper provisioning of the cards on subscriber's accounts.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

Xunaka said:


> There are a total of 3 situations that can occur on a cable card installation
> 
> A: The cable cards are bad, which is why the technican should usually have more than 2 (S series)
> B: The Forward Carrier, QAM or SN/R are off in which case line work is done (that is comcast responsiblity)
> ...


A total or 3 situations? I don't think so. You forgot the most likely problem situations, which Comcast certainly does control:

D: Cablecard is not properly paired by Comcast
E: Cablecard is not properly provisioned by Comcast

Proper training of techs and the billing people whom they have to call would result in a huge reduction in the number of problems with cablecards (and hence the cost to deploy them). I won't dispute that the cards are dated technology, but they do serve their defined purpose adequately when installed properly.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

> Proper training of techs and the billing people whom they have to call would result in a huge reduction in the number of problems with cablecards (and hence the cost to deploy them).


I agree 1000% percent here. It took me a month to actually get the techs to get their crap together and get me a working setup here. The support techs STILL insist that they can't send PPV to my device, and I've got to call the company 3-4 times per event.



> I won't dispute that the cards are dated technology, but they do serve their defined purpose adequately when installed properly.


I don't see how cable cards are "dated" technology at all. In order for something to be "dated", it has to be replaced by something. Sure, the companies want to push their own boxes to you, their "HD" boxes, but they're not a replacement for the technology at all.

The only reason cable cards are considered outdated is because the cable companies don't want to do their jobs and train their employees properly, NOT just their techs, but their support reps as well.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

twhiting9275 said:


> I agree 1000% percent here. It took me a month to actually get the techs to get their crap together and get me a working setup here. The support techs STILL insist that they can't send PPV to my device, and I've got to call the company 3-4 times per event.
> 
> I don't see how cable cards are "dated" technology at all. In order for something to be "dated", it has to be replaced by something. Sure, the companies want to push their own boxes to you, their "HD" boxes, but they're not a replacement for the technology at all.
> 
> The only reason cable cards are considered outdated is because the cable companies don't want to do their jobs and train their employees properly, NOT just their techs, but their support reps as well.


DCAS will be the eventual replacement for cablecards....

http://www.opencable.com/dcas/


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Xunaka said:


> All technicians also have a number they call that goes to advanced technical support, for things they do not normally run into. Sorry but cable card users represent less than 1% of the population of cable TV users.


The installer did not have a number for advanced technical support. He was clueless and untrained.

The FCC requires the cable company to support that 1%. You are saying it's too hard.



> There are a total of 3 situations that can occur on a cable card installation
> 
> A: The cable cards are bad, which is why the technican should usually have more than 2 (S series)
> B: The Forward Carrier, QAM or SN/R are off in which case line work is done (that is comcast responsiblity)
> ...


Yet my cable card was fine, my carrier, QAM and SNR were all fine, and the TiVo was fine, but still I had no service.

If the installer knew what he was doing, and if the people he called knew what they were doing, my install would have gone correctly the first time. The installer only knew the one number and did not know how to correctly diagnose the situation or escalate it up the proper channels within Comcast Two days later a second installer calls a number that he has saved for six months and everything is fine with no hardware substitution. Yet you continue to find Comcast blameless with no knowledge of the particulars. 


> Learn something about installation before claiming ignorance as you just proved yours.


I was there. Were you?


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

My own experience:

I called my company and scheduled someone to be out on New Years Eve in the afternoon. They had 3 days to call me back and say "we don't have the cards". They called me back on Monday (you know the kind, automated, we'll be there, etc), and I called them back to verify they were bringing out a single M-Card. They verified they were.

Wednesday (day of appointment) came, afternoon came, I get the call from the tech, assuming he's calling to tell me he's on his way. Was he? Nope, he was calling to tell me he had no cards at all.

Two weeks later, when they finally decide to fulfill the order, the tech comes out with two s-cards. The first one throws a fit in the system, so the tech tries a second one, which works.

Unfortunately, this leaves me with only one tuner. The second tuner wouldn't even pick up non hd (standard cable) channels.

Another week (and 3 calls later), the company sent out a tech who brought out a single m-card, which solved everyone's problems. If only they had done this 3 weeks earlier, when they were paid to do this.

During those 3 weeks, I had various calls and various management discussions, none of them having a clue what was going on. I'm STILL fighting with their support reps who can't understand that I know what I'm talking about.

This is only my experience, but if my experience is any indication, cable companies REALLY need to train their techs (and outsourced companies) better. I mean, they may HATE cablecards (in the words of one of their techs), but they really shouldn't be THAT hard to do, if you do your job right to begin with!


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Hmmm...does anyone else suspect that there's a cable company employee in our midst? One that has a real distaste for cable cards _and_ TiVo? Just thinking out loud here.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Xunaka said:


> While your effort is somewhat commendable your knowledge is far far lacking. First off nobody said the FCC made cable cards, they simply enforced regulations making cable card support mandatory.


The FCC requires supporting separable security. CableCards are the CATV industry's answer to that requirement. All of their equipment - including OCAP equipment - currently employs CabLeCards. Although the FCC's efforts have fallen far, far short of what they should have been, they only stepped in when after almost 20 years of bickering and wrangling the consumer electronics industry, the CATV equipment industry, and the CATV providers could not agree on a method for developing separable security. Each wanted their own way and refused to compromise.



Xunaka said:


> Secondly OCAP technology, is not based off cable card 1.0 or 2.0 because they work on a single frequency in only connection, they are not able to pull information from the source.. Why do you think guide data, SDV, on demand do not work on cable cards?


Once again you haven't a single clue. Being a middleware standard -albeit a lousy one - OCAP does not require any specific hardware, but every single OCAP device in existence or planned for the near future employs CableCards. Once the CATV equipment manufacturers get downloadable security working (which is still 2 - 3 years out ), OCAP will work as well (or rather as badly) as it does with CableCard systems. Your understanding of the technology is apparently completely in error. CableCards do not receive or transmit any RF carrier, so speaking of a "frequency" is total nonsense. Every CableCard is capable of sending data upstream toward the CATV headend, and is perfectly capable of participating in two way communications protocols with the CATV headend. Every CableCard is 100% capable of handling guide data, SDV, VOD, IPPV, and any other 2-way protocol in place or under development. Your suggestion they do not is based upon what can only be surmised to be complete ignorance of how these systems work.



Xunaka said:


> Thirdly.. any outside equipment installed at a home, is not the cable companies responsibility.. it ends once the cable service is on and active and working correctly in the home of a customer. Anything from there issues occurred on a VCR/DVD/TiVo/DvR surround sound are not their problem. It's common sense.


I'm afraid "common stupidity" is more like it. Exactly how would one even begin to argue the service is "on and active and working correctly" if the user cannot receive the service or an acceptable quality thereof? It's true, as I already pointed out, the end user equipment must be functioning correctly within well defined specifications, and the CATV company is not required to deal with malfunctioning 3rd party equipment (although they often do), but per FCC regulations in CFR 47 part 76, the CATV company is required to produce a signal compatible with the user's equipment. Whether this constitutes "common sense" to you or not is completely irrelevant. It is the law, and every CATV company who goes into business must fully understand and abide by it. It also happens to be the only reasonable way to handle the industry, since end users are not capable or competent to diagnose and repair any failure of the system and the third party manufacturer will not in general have a local technical representative available to perform such troubleshooting. Your obtuse statements notwithstanding, the end user equipment is a vital and integral part of the video delivery system by law, "common sense", and engineering. The CATV company is not required to repair end user equipment, and they are allowed to charge a service call fee for any truck roll where the entire problem turns out to be due to a malfunction of any piece of 3rd party equipment, but they are absolutely required to deliver a signal compatible with any 3rd party device meeting FCC and CableLabs specifications. (Note: Verizon is not a member of CableLabs, and so are not required to meet CableLabs specifications. They are still required to meet FCC regulations.)



Xunaka said:


> While you might have been an engineer, you probably weren't a good one.. Sorry


And your qualifications to determine this would be...?

'Funny how my paycheck doesn't reflect how poor an engineer I am.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

twhiting9275 said:


> I don't see how cable cards are "dated" technology at all. In order for something to be "dated", it has to be replaced by something.


I only meant "dated" in regards to the technology used to implement cablecards. PC Cards, upon which cablecards are physically based, are fading away in the PC industry. If a separable security module was being designed today, it would likely be designed with a simpler and cheaper interface, i.e. USB, SDIO, something like that.

Of course this doesn't mean that cablecards as they exist today don't do the job they are intended to do. I think the general industry opinion is that they do, and they're not that expensive, hence it is not worth the effort to replace them with some other standard at this time. I'd guess that downloadable security will probably be the eventual replacement.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Xunaka said:


> Calling that number does nothing for terms of changing anything, all they are doing is talking to someone who has access to the billing system open, they then pair the cards to the host and send hits. A cable card cannot be remotely addressed, it's one way communication.


Once again you are displaying a complete ignorance of how CableCards work. CableCards are 2-way devices, and always have been. They are perfectly capable of conversing with the CATV headend and being addressed remotely. Every CableCard in every CATV STB or DVR (which is fast approaching 100% of them) is fully addressable from the headend.



Xunaka said:


> All technicians also have a number they call that goes to advanced technical support, for things they do not normally run into. Sorry but cable card users represent less than 1% of the population of cable TV users.


Must you really flaunt your lack of understanding? As you can see from this report, as of September last year, over 8 million CableCard bearing devices had been deployed, and the number is climbing rapidly. Before too long only non-digital CATV subscribers will not have CableCards in some device in their house. CableCard users already represent nearly 100% of all digital cable subscribers. Fewer than 1% have 3rd party CableCard devices, but that has nothing to do with the capabilities of CableCards.



Xunaka said:


> There are a total of 3 situations that can occur on a cable card installation
> 
> A: The cable cards are bad, which is why the technican should usually have more than 2 (S series)
> B: The Forward Carrier, QAM or SN/R are off in which case line work is done (that is comcast responsiblity)
> C: The TiVo unit itself is bad


Don't quit your job and try to work as a CATV tech. A short list of other common problems:

D: RF ingress
E: Carrier / Noise issues from improperly balanced plant
F: Flatness and equalization issues due to failed active or passive components, moisture penetration, or improperly balanced plant.
G: Intermodulation distortion products, particularly 3rd order products due to incorrect modulator settings, failed active devices, or improperly balanced plant.
H: Hum modulation
I: Modulator failure
J: Incorrect database settings (not necessarily directly related to CableCards)
K: Multipath distortion, usualy due to low return loss in a passive or active component.
L: Harmonic return loss problems, usually due to an out-of-round cable roller.
M: Equalization problems due to connector failure, improperly balanced plant, or unusual interior topologies inside the customer dwelling.



Xunaka said:


> 1/3 of those situations comcast can control, thats making sure your signal is good.. Cable cards are dated and old they are hit and miss, they have a responsiblity to give you ones that work yes, but it's not their fault the technology behind them is terrible.


You have demonstrated an almost total ignorance of the technology, so your opinion of it is baseless and of little value.



Xunaka said:


> Learn something about installation before claiming ignorance as you just proved yours.


Yes, Mr. Kettle.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

spocko said:


> I only meant "dated" in regards to the technology used to implement cablecards. PC Cards, upon which cablecards are physically based, are fading away in the PC industry.


True, but not relevant. (And to be pedantic, they are PCMCIA cards.)



spocko said:


> If a separable security module was being designed today, it would likely be designed with a simpler and cheaper interface, i.e. USB, SDIO, something like that.


I don't know about that. The CableCard must support a throughput in excess of 120 Mbps simultaneously in and out. That's possible for USB 2.0, but it's a stretch. More importantly, the throughput must be able to consist of up to 6 totally asynchronous high bandwidth input and output streams plus an irregular but high priority set of communications with the host system. What's more, while I am aware the SDIO standard is specifically designed to handle encryption and decryption, I'm not sure an SDIO device would be capable of the level of encryption required by CableCard standards. The device must be able to simultaneously decrypt and then re-encrypt 6 simultaneous 20+ Mbps data streams. That's a lot for a chip the size of an SDIO card.



spocko said:


> Of course this doesn't mean that cablecards as they exist today don't do the job they are intended to do. I think the general industry opinion is that they do, and they're not that expensive, hence it is not worth the effort to replace them with some other standard at this time. I'd guess that downloadable security will probably be the eventual replacement.


It will for the CATV equipment, but I rather doubt it will be so for 3rd party devices. The Consumer Electronics MAnufacturers don't want the CATV company to be downloading operating systems into their side of the separable security curtain any more than I do.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

SCSIRAID said:


> DCAS will be the eventual replacement for cablecards....


It will be the replacement for CableCards in CATV company owned equipment. I seriously doubt it will be adopted by the Consumer Electronics Manufacturers, at least not any time soon. Note Open Cable specs are 100% compatible with both. Indeed, from an operational perspective - as opposed to a maintenance and upgrade perspective or a cost perspective - there's very little to distinguish the two.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

richsadams said:


> Hmmm...does anyone else suspect that there's a cable company employee in our midst? One that has a real distaste for cable cards _and_ TiVo? Just thinking out loud here.


No, but I'm starting to think someone lives under a bridge...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Xunaka said:


> . Anything beyond that is done as a courtesy to you by the company.


Gosh, how nice to extend a courtesy to me *the paying customer*


> Like I said, Cable cards are a dated terrible technology which is slowing down the progression of HFC networks, because dated technology has to be serviced and supported..
> 
> The OCAP true 2 way technology employed by the new cable boxes, far exceeds anything that a cable card will be able to match.


Now I know you are outright lying, you claim to know all about cable company infrastructures but skip the fact that new cable box deploys must be done with an internal cable card.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> Once again you are displaying a complete ignorance of how CableCards work. CableCards are 2-way devices, and always have been. They are perfectly capable of conversing with the CATV headend and being addressed remotely.


Correct me if I'm wrong but for a cablecard to send information back to the headend doesn't the STB the card is installed in have to have some additional supporting hardware (basically a cable-modem). And isn't that supporting hardware non-manditory?

So in practice, while the cablecards are 2-way devices, aren't many (most?) of them installed in devices that can't support that 2-way communication?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but for a cablecard to send information back to the headend doesn't the STB the card is installed in have to have some additional supporting hardware (basically a cable-modem). And isn't that supporting hardware non-manditory?
> 
> So in practice, while the cablecards are 2-way devices, aren't many (most?) of them installed in devices that can't support that 2-way communication?


the tuning adapter for the TiVo is basically a DOCIS modem to do the talking back to the head end. Since cable companies use different APIs for the 2way conversation each cable company has to supply its now tuning adapter. This is also, I think, why TiVo did not include a DOCIS modem in the series 3 platform. Far too much of a nightmare to try and keep up with all the different cable companies if TiVo had to do the software part. Otherwise a TiVo S3 or TiVo HD can not talk back and thus the need for tech to call in pairing info etc.

The goal for tru2way is to standardize those APIs so the conversation between the device and headend is the same for all tru2way compliant cable companies and thus TiVo can include a DOCIS modem design in the hardware and just code to the tru2way standard. The the cablecard(s) can be put in the slot and tru2way can do the talking to get things configured and paired to the account.

in the just done TiVo earnings report though tru2way does not look to be making the hoped for progress and it looks like we will not see much on this front until 2010 if then. 

Hopefully cable companies will keep improving their procedures for dealing with cable cards in one way devices.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> in the just done TiVo earnings report though tru2way does not look to be making the hoped for progress and it looks like we will not see much on this front until 2010 if then.


There is progress though, isn't there?. Or at least partnerships are being made:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/090302/sf77087.html?.v=1
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/090302/sf77014.html?.v=1

Both releases from March 2.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but for a cablecard to send information back to the headend doesn't the STB the card is installed in have to have some additional supporting hardware (basically a cable-modem).


Yes. No UDCP by definition has an RF modulator capable of sending signals on the sub-band back towards the headend. The "U" in "UDCP" stands for "Unidirectional". There is a ratified standard for UDCP devices. It should never have existed, but the Consumer Equipment Manufacturers absolutely insisted, and the FCC acquiesced, requiring CableLabs to come up with a UDCP standard. No one in the middle of the political fracas thought TVs and the like would ever have to participate in 2-way communications, plus the CATV (both manufacturers and vendors) people wanted to keep total control of 2-way services. The result? There *STILL* is no ratified 2-way standard, although tru2way is so firmly entrenched it is unlikely anything else will unseat it.

Unfortunately, OCAP is part and parcel of tru2way, and it will allow the CATV company to install any software it wants into the consumer's device without notice to the consumer or any choice on his part. It can have a virus or a trojan, and the user has no recourse to prevent the download or eliminate the software or any of its features. The CATV company also has the ability to deny any 3rd party softwares to be used with the device, and there is absolutely nothing preventing the CATV company from installing spyware on the consumer devices which can even sniff the user's home LAN and potentially collect all manner of personal data from them, including banking information, passwords, etc. It's a horrendous piece of regulation, implemented not by any government entity, but by a representative of a conglomerate of businesses.



Jonathan_S said:


> And isn't that supporting hardware non-manditory?


Actually, it is manditorily non-existent. I think a couple of CE manufacturers have received an OK from CableLabs to start producing tru2way devices, but I don't think any have them ready to deploy, yet. The only things actually in the market are UDCPs like the Series III class TiVos and a few TV sets, mostly made by Hitachi.



Jonathan_S said:


> So in practice, while the cablecards are 2-way devices, aren't many (most?) of them installed in devices that can't support that 2-way communication?


No, most are installed in CATV owned STBs and DVRs, by a factor of more than ten. Something less than 10% are installed in customer-owned devices. All of the customer owned devices at this point are UDCPs, whihc means they cannot support 2 way communications with the headend. The one exception is S3 class TiVos with Tuning Adapters installed. I have three.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

pdhenry said:


> There is progress though, isn't there?. Or at least partnerships are being made:
> 
> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/090302/sf77087.html?.v=1
> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/090302/sf77014.html?.v=1
> ...


those are actually partnerships to get around the lack of tru2way progress. TiVo is making deals to explore ways to do things other than tru2way.


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