# Topfield / Toppy users - is it better than Tivo or a Media Centre?



## childe (Jan 22, 2001)

I have been loyal to my Tivo for 7 years now, and still think it is marvellous. However, when I go large screen next year I will be ready for a replacement, if only to improve the picture quality.

A friend has recently replaced his Tivo with a Topfield TF5800. He has applied several of the free TAPS to improve its UI and other functionality and now seems very happy with it. He thinks it is better than Tivo in almost every respect, including: size, noise, capacity (250GB out of the box), 2 tuners, speed of operation, configurability, USB interface, continuing support, ability to load/play jpegs and mp3s. He even prefers the UI, especially the way you can store programmes in your own custom folders. You can also upload your own videos. Its only shortcoming appears to be a slightly less sophisticated wishlists and ease of upgrading capacity (assuming that is even possible).

My media needs are to be able to watch/record TV, play home videos and downloaded video, play photo slideshows and listen to MP3 music (with some options for playback). It must also be wife friendly. Ive looked at media centers (MCE and Media Portal) and they are good, but they require a large, noisy and unreliable PC in my living room. This Toppy seems to meet all my requirements and even better, a 500GB version is due soon.

I think Tivos killer USPs are its Wishlists, Season Passes and ease of use. Many of you seem to have had a Toppy for some time now. If you are still viewing this forum, how does it rate compared to Tivo or a Media Centre? How versatile/useful are the other features such as jpeg / mp3 playback? Can you play video files from an external USB hard drive?


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## Paperface (Sep 14, 2005)

Toppy is only Freeview afaik, so it's a bit of a non starter if you want sky or cable.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

childe said:


> Ive looked at media centers (MCE and Media Portal) and they are good, but they require a large, noisy and unreliable PC in my living room.


Not necessarily. My MCE computer is in an Antec Fusion case, and it is virtually silent. It uses 120mm fans, which can be set to a very slow, but totally-adequate, speed. The onboard graphics of my micro-ATX motherboard doesn't provide a DVI output, so I use a graphics card with passive cooling.

You could also place the PC elsewhere, and use an Xbox 360 as an MCE extender. However, the fan of the Xbox is much noisier, so the PC is preferable, unless you wan't to access the Xbox with its cheap HD DVD drive.

I don't know about the Toppie, but I consider one of the main advantages of the MCE computer to be the ability to support multiple concurrent users through Xbox 360 extenders.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Paperface said:


> Toppy is only Freeview afaik, so it's a bit of a non starter if you want sky or cable.


MCE can control Sky boxes via IR control, but you would need to add a video-capture card to the PC to capture the output, and it might restrict you to one input.


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

iankb said:


> MCE can control Sky boxes via IR control, but you would need to add a video-capture card to the PC to capture the output, and it might restrict you to one input.


No my MCE setup is feed by 2 Cable boxes.


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## childe (Jan 22, 2001)

Ian

I like the look of that Antec box. However, it seems to be about £120. Adding a mother board (£100), processor (£60), graphics (£70) and hard drives (£160 for 2x500GB) is going to be around another £400-£500 at least, giving a total of over £600. This is about double the Toppy price after allowing for external hard drive. Im not sure I could justify that with the limited differences I am aware of. I think I would be paying for a lot of computing power that I would rarely use. The extenders look interesting, especially as I will be getting a 360 soon. Does this mean I could have the 360 under the main TV with the media centre, and then an extender with my other TV, and then simultaneously use content from the media center on both TVs? How much is an extender? I couldnt find any outlets.

Thanks


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

childe said:


> Its only shortcoming appears to be a slightly less sophisticated wishlists and ease of upgrading capacity (assuming that is even possible).
> 
> This Toppy seems to meet all my requirements and even better, a 500GB version is due soon.


Once the Metadata needed to fully support Freeview Playback's Series Link facility and also the Toppy's various TAPS for rudimentary Wishlists becomes widely available on most Freeview channels a Topfield may indeed be a near acceptable replacement for a Tivo, although lack of 21 days of EPG data and no 28 day rule etc may continue to frustrate.

However I would imagine we will be well on in to 2008 or even 2009 until ITV, C4 and especially Five properly support Metadata on all their channels, so your plans to hang fire until some time next year seem wise.

As an alternative to the Topfield and Freeview have you not also considered the BBC's new HD satellite box product next year as I suspect there will be a version with Metadata support and Freeview Playback like Series Link features with a hard drive that may be as good as a Topfield but also give you access to FTA HD programs. There won't be any HD on Freeview before 2012 and possibly not even then, so that is the main argument against the Toppy and also Freeview if your main priority is making the most of a new flat screen telly with its capability to support HDTV broadcasts.

Of course in due course there may welll be a Toppy capable of supporting the BBC's new FTA HD satellite service..................


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## rhialto (Oct 13, 2002)

The Topfield box doesn't come close to TiVo. 

Its plus points are two tuners, and a bigger hard drive out of the box.

On the negative side the user interface is awful, and it's very noisy. When recording two programmes and playing back one I can get quite nervous that it's going to blow up (this is not just my box - its all 5 of the Toppys I've come across).

TAPs purport to improve the user interface, but they just don't in any reliable way. Either the TAP you want to use crashes all the time, or it's incompatible with another TAP you use.

The big problem with the (current) Topfield is it doesn't have a concept of a programme or broadcast. When you enter a recording, it stores it as eg BBC1 Tuesday 6-6:30 every week. If the programme moves, tough. There are TAPs which try to address this, but in my experience none of them as successfully or reliably as a TiVo. With the introduction of Freeview playback things may change.

Really, Topfield have ok hardware, they should license the TiVo software for their machines, which would pretty much eliminate all their disadvantages.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

One is almost tempted to the view that for those who regard a Freeview Topfield as superior to a Tivo it is a pre-requisite that:-

(a) They have not upgraded Tivo's hard drive or installed a network card or Tivoweb so imagine Tivo to be stuck back in the days of 11 hours of high quality recording or 40 hours of low quality recording with no web interface

(b) That most of them only ever seem to have treated Tivo as being a glorified video recorder without tapes and have never properly made use of Wishlists etc, never mind concepts such as Daily Mail and so on.

For Sky HD there is a more compelling case because it can do HD and Tivo can't but back over on Freeview the case for deserting Tivo is much, much less convincing. Newer does not always mean better..........................


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Newer does not always mean better..........................


Indeed, and the Series 1 TiVo was so far ahead of its time that even if it were released today as a brand new product with no modifications (aside from maybe a 160gb drive, which is now cheaper than a 40gb was in 2000!) it would still be the best PVR on the market in the UK!

Even without HD the release of a Series 2 machine with 2 freeview tuners, a 400gb drive and the latest software available to US machines would blow the rest into oblivion.

And as for a Series 3 HD machine.... my knees are starting to tremble...


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## DX30 (May 22, 2005)

childe said:


> However, when I go large screen next year I will be ready for a replacement, if only to improve the picture quality.


I find the Topfield picture quality is slightly better than a Mode 0 TiVo, but to be honest I only really notice on BBC channels - most of the other Freeview channels have such low bitrates the picture quality is poor whatever you use.



childe said:


> Its only shortcoming appears to be a slightly less sophisticated wishlists and ease of upgrading capacity (assuming that is even possible).


The wishlists and season pass facilities of the TiVo are definitely superior but upgrading a Topfield drive is much easier than with the TiVo (bung in the drive and Topfield formats it). I would differ from those who say the Topfield is noisy, I find it's quieter than a TiVo. There is no fan, so it's down to how noisy a disk is fitted.



childe said:


> I think Tivos killer USPs are its Wishlists, Season Passes and ease of use. Many of you seem to have had a Toppy for some time now. If you are still viewing this forum, how does it rate compared to Tivo or a Media Centre?


IMHO not as good as either of those two in these area's, but it's a strong 3rd - better than any other freeview pvr or sky+.



childe said:


> How versatile/useful are the other features such as jpeg / mp3 playback?


The jpeg playback isn't great - the resolution you get is pretty low, and combined with the limited colour palette available limits the quality.

The mp3 playback is good as long as you aren't looking at vast music collections (a few thousand songs is OK). You can get a number of 3rd party taps that support album art, playlists etc.



childe said:


> Can you play video files from an external USB hard drive?


No, you'll need to convert the files to the appropriate .rec format, then transfer onto the Topfield via usb. There are a number of free packages for the PC that will do the conversion, as well as some commercial packages. I think Mac versions are also available, but I haven't used them.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

childe said:


> The extenders look interesting, especially as I will be getting a 360 soon. Does this mean I could have the 360 under the main TV with the media centre, and then an extender with my other TV, and then simultaneously use content from the media center on both TVs? How much is an extender? I couldnt find any outlets.
> 
> Thanks


The Xbox 360 is the only Media Center Extender currently on sale in the UK - though a few other manufacturers have just announced new generation extenders in the US.

I have had a Media Center PC feeding one TV, with an XBox 360 feeding a second TV. The 360 could stream all my recorded TV from the main Media Center PC, and could access Live TV via the Media Center PC, access the EPG and schedule recordings etc. My machine had two Freeview tuners - so I could watch one live TV channel on the Media Center PC and a different one live on the 360 - as long as I wasn't recording anything - on a third channel of course. Both channels could be watched with full Live TV pause functionality etc.

You wouldn't need a 360 underneath your TV if you are a bit of a techy - as I managed to get my MCE PC to feed my SD TV using a cheap Radeon video card via a VGA to SCART cable and a custom Powerstrip Windows 1024x576 50Hz interlaced desktop mode - MASSIVELY better quality than the composite or S-video scaled and de-flickered TV outs from video cards.

If you aren't in to this kind of tweaking then a cheap (and noisy) MCE PC with a couple of tuners could be installed somewhere out of the way, and just a (or multiple) 360(s) put under your TV(s). The PC doesn't have to be particularly powerful - as it isn't actually doing much processing - it isn't actually decoding any video - just recording it and streaming it.

The picture quality of the 360 is great when feeding an SD TV via RGB SCART with the Xbox configured for 50Hz output. The only major bug with the 360 as an extender is if you connect it to an HDTV. If you do this the output is always at 60Hz - and as our UK TV is 50Hz you get a nasty 10Hz judder...

In some ways the UI isn't as good as Tivo (I've used both XP MC and Vista MC and there are good things about both) - but the picture quality improvement (even over Mode 0) more than compensated me. I ran MCE for Freeview (with the 360) and only used the Tivo for PVRing non-Freeview Sky channels, until I retired it in favour of Sky+ HD.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

You only need the Xbox 360 Core System to act as an MCE extender.


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## childe (Jan 22, 2001)

Thanks for the feedback so far.

As the ability to view photos and videos is essential, I'm definitely veering towards a media centre, despite its expense. I particulary like the fact that its hardware will be easily upgradable as needed, which will not be the case with a Toppy. Of course a Toppy is a lot cheaper, but it does not seem that it will actually do the job I want it to do. The media center does appear to have all the functionality I want.

My configuration is going to be as follows:
- Media Room with large HD flat screen and Xbox 360 Elite (with HDMI output), with TV provided via the media centre with dual freeview tuners.
- Sitting Room with normal SD TV, a cheap freeview tuner and Tivo.

I will use the Media Room for special events such as DVDs, video viewing, slideshows and gaming. I may also get a HD TV feed, but will initially rely on Freeview via the media center. I will also do most of my video and photo editing directly on the media centre (although I will use a different screen when the large screen is being used for other purposes). The Sitting Room will be for normal SD TV viewing via Tivo.

Therefore I think my best bet is a media centre to sit alongside the Xbox in the Media Room. I will probably build my own media centre, starting with something like the Antec case Ian mentioned previously. Given my stated intended uses, (which include video editing and gaming) I presume I need a reasonable specification (core 2 Duo CPU for instance). Any idea what I should budget for? I'm thinking it will be around £700 (case, motherboard, CPU, graphics, dual tuner, 1TB hard drive). In real terms this is less than I paid for my Tivo 7 years ago, so its bearable. Can anyone suggest a suitable specification around this budget?

Thanks


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## martink0646 (Feb 8, 2005)

Hi Childe,

I've been exploring using a MediaCentre/HTPC instead of the numerous boxes I use at the moment. Instead of diving in with both feet (in a financial sense) I thought I would test the water before spending any serious money. I found an old 800mhz P4 with 256mb of RAM that I wasn't using. I added a DvD drive, a Sound card & an old analogue PCI tuner I had lying around. I was going to connect it to my 42" plasma via VGA but the screen decided to die. The new Plasma (insurance jobbie) only had PC input through HDMI. I had to go out & buy a new graphics card (got a dual head for future proofing) for £19.95 off flea bay & a 5m HDMI/DVI cable. For software I tried all the free alternatives knowing that if I proved the concept I would get a package with MCE, when I stumbled across xLobby. It is quite simply an awesome piece of software. It is quite high end (complex & difficult to learn) & there are some issues about payment for the future (it's free at the moment), but I would check it out. It allows X10 control, RS232 device control, PPC thin clients, IR remotes, touchscreen opreation & all wonder of items that I have not yet uncovered.

I write this because your £700.00 seems quite high. For example, go onto ebay & you will find some incredible spec machines including quite a few Antec cased ones, for a lot less than your planned budget. Just an avenue to consider.

Martin


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Totally OT, but I actually use xLobby in my CarPC


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## childe (Jan 22, 2001)

Martin

Thanks for the advice about Ebay. You are quite correct, it looks like I should be budgeting around £500 for a self build medium to high spec media centre in an Antec Fusion case. Even better!

I too am experimenting with a cheap MC using an old salvaged pentium 4 2.8GHz. I agree this spec is more than sufficient for the basic MC features. However I want something more powerful for video editing and gaming etc. Not top of the range, but better than what I have now.

I am currently using Media Portal, another free download probably similar to xLobby. It seems pretty good so far, although it has crashed a few times. How stable is xLobby?


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## Richard Loxley (Jun 4, 2002)

Many people seem to be looking for alternatives to Tivo because they want "Media Centre" capabilities (playing videos downloaded off the internet, playing mp3s, etc).

What I did was leave the Tivo doing what it does best (recording and playing back TV) and added another device to fill in the missing link. For me that device was an original Xbox, with Xbox Media Center (XBMC) installed on it. It is a surperb bit of kit.

XBMC is simply the best media player I have ever seen. It's free, it will play anything you throw at it, and the user interface is clear, easy and intuitive.

Installing it requires you to follow instructions carefully, since you are hacking the Xbox slightly, which can be a little intimidating, but it takes less than an hour, and there are people offering to install it for you on ebay if you prefer.

I paid £40 for a second-hand Xbox with a 1 year guarantee from a shop, and £20 for the infrared remote control (which you don't need, but makes it much more a part of your AV setup).

It now sits under my telly, connected by ethernet to the file server in my home office, which contains all my media. For what it's worth, the file server is another great piece of kit - it's actually the Asus WL-500gP wireless router with a USB hard drive plugged in. This has download manager software built in so it will download bittorrents or web downloads to the hard drive without your PC having to be turned on. When the downloads are finished they are automatically made available on the file server, which in my setup means they magically pop-up on XBMC 

If anyone wants more advice on setting up such a system I'm happy to give some help.


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## martink0646 (Feb 8, 2005)

Hi Childe,

Its pretty stable. I have only had a couple of crashes & only when I am trying new things on the setup when I am stretching the old PC. In fact my main problem comes with a slight slowdown in playback of mpg files if the main PC I am using to store all my media in the office is doing some processor heavy work.

Martin


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## kewcity (Feb 8, 2002)

Another media extender that you could try is the new Apple TV. Out of the box it doesn't have too many codecs it can play but with a usb key with patchstick on it apparently can play everything you can throw at it and stream. I believe it also has hdmi output.

David


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

If you have MCE and Sky is there a solution for Sky's movie channels pin number request?

Also does widescreen switching work?

Automan


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Automan said:


> If you have MCE and Sky is there a solution for Sky's movie channels pin number request?
> 
> Also does widescreen switching work?
> 
> Automan


There is no widescreen switching if you use the official external Sky box + Composite/S-video analogue capture solution and have a 16:9 display - there is no Pin 8 interface that I know of nor any means for MCE to detect it (though someone could design a nice RGB hardware capture card that incorporated it - they haven't). (Obviously the Sky box output can be configured to switch between 4:3 and 4:3 with 16:9 letterbox if you have a 4:3 display - so this isn't an issue for 4:3 users?)

However if you use the very unofficial - PC Satellite card with Conditional Access Module and Sky subscription, with unofficial DVB-S drivers that pretend to be a DVB-T card and fool Media Center, a long with the registry hack to get the EPG to work, then I see no reason why aspect switching shouldn't work as well as it does for Freeview (which is pretty good)

I don't think there is a PIN number workaround for the former (in fact I'm pretty certain there isn't) - though the latter has no way to prompt for a PIN in the first place so it may not be an issue (I think PIN protection is implemented by receiver and EPG not encryption - so if you aren't using a Sky receiver, just a reverse engineered version of the Sky conditional access system it may be a solution)

NB - the unofficial route is not for the faint hearted (I haven't tried it yet) - and could stop working at any time. Whether it is illegal is less clear - as you are still paying a Sky subscription.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

kewcity said:


> Another media extender that you could try is the new Apple TV. Out of the box it doesn't have too many codecs it can play but with a usb key with patchstick on it apparently can play everything you can throw at it and stream. I believe it also has hdmi output.
> 
> David


Yep Apple TV has HDMI and Component (but no RGB or Composite/S-video) outputs, along with SPDIF audio. It has been hacked pretty effectively - you can run Mac OSX on it if you like, and it has quite a powerful video card integrated into it (well more powerful than the MacMini's) Integrated Wifi, Ethernet and a single USB port, combined with 40/160Gb internal storage (and this can be expanded very easily)

It is small, neat, and quiet.

Codec support for Divx is pretty easy to add - and the integration with iTunes out of the box for audio playback is fantastic - particularly with Cover Flow album art - and it is pretty speedy and much easier to use than many other extenders. (Odd that it doesn't support iTunes radio stations out of the box though) (Hopefully Leopard will move all Macs to have this rather than the current basic Frontrow front-end)

Haven't seen many people use it as a streaming client (say as a front end for Myth TV) - though there should be no reason why it shouldn't work.


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## Dazbear (Aug 24, 2001)

Hi there

Moved from TiVo to Toppy around 4 months ago and wouldnt look back. Improved picture quality, twin tuners, easy pc-toppy interfae, no sub and TAPS (My Stuff 5.5) allow for series links to be set up etc which I find more reliable that TiVos.

TiVo served me well, but was time to move on.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Dazbear said:


> Hi there
> 
> Moved from TiVo to Toppy around 4 months ago and wouldnt look back. Improved picture quality, twin tuners, easy pc-toppy interfae, no sub and TAPS (My Stuff 5.5) allow for series links to be set up etc which I find more reliable that TiVos.
> 
> TiVo served me well, but was time to move on.


But don't I seem to recall Daz that your Tivo was a totally unmodified model with no enlarged hard drive or network card, Tivoweb etc, etc.

There seem to be a lot of other reports that the My Stuff TAPS on Topfields are in fact fairly buggy and unreliable.


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## Dazbear (Aug 24, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> But don't I seem to recall Daz that your Tivo was a totally unmodified model with no enlarged hard drive or network card, Tivoweb etc, etc.
> 
> There seem to be a lot of other reports that the My Stuff TAPS on Topfields are in fact fairly buggy and unreliable.


I can only comment on my experience and have found My Stuff to be rock solid (we are on V5.5 now - think the issues lay in the very early editions). My TiVo was unmodified, but personally for me (at this stage after 5 years) upgrading TiVo would have cost more than buying a Toppy - in that case dual tuner and the recording of direct digital signal swung it for me. Also, you may remember I was paying monthly sub - I know I am one of the few!

The thumbs up/down thing never did it for me - most of the time suggesting programmes from CBBC - says a lot about me I suppose - hehe. MyStuff gives (IMO) the same Wishlist functionality based on keywords as well as series links, so I am happy. There are a myriad of TAPs to play with, so for peple who like to fiddle Toppy has a lot to offer.

As I say, it will be down to personal preference. If another TiVo had been on the market I would have gone with one.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Daz,

I think if there was a Freesat Toppy then things might get more interesting but I am not very keen on spending a lot of money on a Freeview only DTT box when my expectation is that Freeview will soon only get FTA channels from BBC, ITV, C4 and Five with Murdoch gradually sweeping up the rest in his DTT pay tv Picnic service (for which you will need one of his proprietary boxes).

It still seems to me that two or three years down the road my interests lie in a new large widescreen HDTV on which I can actually watch some form of HD picture. Sadly it seems this will not be the case on Freeview so hence again I will take more interest in the development of BBC Freesat with its greater choice of free channels.

Also I like news channels. Soon there will be only BBC News 24 on Freeview whereas one has Bloomberg, CNN, Euronews, AlJazeerah International, France 24 and Russia Today on Freesat even if Sky remove Sky News (which they may not remove for a Freesat viewer via a Sky box with an FTV card like me).

So in my view Freeview in the long term is going to be a medium with very limited channel choice and hence not wanting to go down that road. I see no reason why there will probably not be a Toppy supporting the BBC Freesat service next year.


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

Is there a web interface for the Toppy?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

terryeden said:


> Is there a web interface for the Toppy?


Is that a rehetorical question by any chance Terry?

Also I wonder if a Toppy has an interface you can access via a mobile phone like xtivoweb?


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Is that a rehetorical question by any chance Terry?
> 
> Also I wonder if a Toppy has an interface you can access via a mobile phone like xtivoweb?


It was not.

Nevermind - it apears there is, there's information and a demo at 
http://topfield.qmtech.com/

There is a TAP to allow you to send commands via SMS. Looking at some of the TAPs, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to generate an xhtml-mp site.

It even looks like the new version implements FreeView Playback v2 - which should mean better series links. http://www.toppy.org.uk/static/DTGplayback.shtml

Hmmmm hackable, dual tuners, web accessible, lossless recording, hdmi, regularly updated software, series links...

Dear Santa....


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## Dazbear (Aug 24, 2001)

Yes to both web interface and mobile access. You can also network via wifi as it has a port for a standard laptop wireless card as standard. Direst PC interface is easy via USB.

Toppy are just about to release a HD version too.


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

Regularly updated software can be a curse as well as a blessing. Just ask Thomson owners who got lumbered with a buggy release recently. One of the nice things about the UK Tivo is that the base software doesn't change. However, should my Tivo die, a Toppy would be worth looking at.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Dazbear said:


> Toppy are just about to release a HD version too.


Strange as I didn't think there was due to be any HD on Freeview/DTT in the foreseeable future.

I assume this is an EU or worldwide model for any countries that may be broadcasting in HD on DTT?

I'm sure that a Topfield model as part of the BBC Freesat project is no doubt highly likely. Is this the one that will perhaps record in HD?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

johala_reewi said:


> Regularly updated software can be a curse as well as a blessing. Just ask Thomson owners who got lumbered with a buggy release recently. One of the nice things about the UK Tivo is that the base software doesn't change.


Hmmm. I think there are a fair few who will disagree on that particular point.

There are definitely still some unfixed bugs in the 2.5.5 Tivo software.

For instance last night I was watching Long Way Round semi live 10 minutes or so behind the actual live recording but the program itself was being recorded by an SP. However about 10 minutes before the end of the recorded program Tivo gave a message saying it was going to chang to BBC1 to record The Blair Years and was that ok etc. But on looking at the Tivo there was no red recording light and Long Way Round had finished recording 10 minutes earlier.

So I duly let Tivo change to record The Blair Years at which point Long Way Round stopped playing and I was dumped in to the start of The Blair Years recording. If I had told Tivo not to change to BBC1 then I assume it would not have recorded The Blair Years at all.

Better executed software would simply have changed channel to BBC1 in the background to record and continued to let me watch Long Way Round to the end.

Now the argument from those who will spring to Tivo's defence here will no doubt be that I was in effect watching the equivalent of the Live Buffer and that when a channel is changed the Live Buffer is cleared and this is why my viewing of Long Way Round had to be stopped and manually resumed. But I would argue that watching a recording live is not the same as watching the Live Buffer if it is not being recorded and that because the whole of that program had been recorded at the time when Tivo wanted to start recording The Blair Years it should have just changed channel in the background and let me watch to the end of Long Way Round. A small thing, not that bad etc but definitely scope for improvement along with an official Tivo version of Endpad etc.

The Toppy does sound quite interesting now but the main thing against it is (a) That Freeview reception is still unacceptable in many areas of the UK and requires expensive £200+ aerial upgrades that even then may not be 100% successful and (b) BBC, ITV, C4 and Five seem to have their heart set on ensuring they control nearly all of Freeview to hang on to most of their previous non subscription fee minded audiences and the range of free channels on Freesat (including free HD channels) is likely to be much better and wider going fowards. Even the handful of Freeview channels not currently on Freesat will be free on Freesat by this time next year once BBC Freesat has launched.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

I'm sure I've been in the same situation, and tivo did let me watch the end of my program. 

I remember being able to fast forward and rewind past the channel change, and thought it surprising...

I do have a 3 hour bufffer though (and I thought you did too?)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> I remember being able to fast forward and rewind past the channel change, and thought it surprising...
> 
> I do have a 3 hour bufffer though (and I thought you did too?)


I also have a 3 hour buffer. However the behaviour you describe above only happens when the next program is not being recorded by the Tivo but the one you were watching and that is in the past was. Also don't forget the 3 hour live buffer doesn't exist when a program is recording. The buffer is instead the length of the recorded show.

When Tivo has to record another show on a different channel and you are watching a show that was recording live but has now finished a while ago it behaves as described above.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Daz,
> 
> I think if there was a Freesat Toppy then things might get more interesting


I'm sure there will be. Topfield make HD satellite receivers and satellite PVRs, although not as yet a HD satellite PVR. But I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

I still don't think FreeSat will work on a large scale; all Murdoch has to do is waive the £10 Sky+ charge and you may as well get a box which can be upgraded to get Sky pay channels and which has an EPG for all the little FTA ones.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> There are definitely still some unfixed bugs in the 2.5.5 Tivo software.
> 
> For instance last night I was watching Long Way Round semi live 10 minutes or so behind the actual live recording ...


I'm not sure I'd call that a bug as such; just a feature which doesn't work the way you'd prefer it to.

The solution would have been to press the Record button, which would have dumped the programme you were watching into a recording and you could have carried on watching it.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I still don't think FreeSat will work on a large scale; all Murdoch has to do is waive the £10 Sky+ charge and you may as well get a box which can be upgraded to get Sky pay channels and which has an EPG for all the little FTA ones.


The flipside of that is that if Murdoch doesn't make you pay a subscription to have access to any Sky+ functionality (even on FTA and FTV channels) then a huge number of base level subscribers paying for only 2 to 6 Mixes may desubscribe entitrely. The only thing to stop that happening is his package deal including broadband some Mixes and sports channels. This is attractive financially in his bundled exchange areas but non existent outside them (accounting for the other 50% of UK homes).

One irony of a successful takeoff in Freesat is that it may force Murdoch to produce a CAM for the Toppy and other similar PVRs and a very attractive initial subscription deal in order to bring back in to his pay tv net set top boxes that might otherwise remain completely outside it.

I don't think Murdoch will bother with much of the above if he is allowed to have Sky Picnic on DTT. But if Picnic is turned down then Murdoch is going to mount a massive defensive move in the Freesat area to make it hard for the BBC to distribute many of their non Sky smartcard enabled boxes.

Also in due course the marketability of Freeview vs Freesat is going to be hugely challenged once people realise they can only get FTA HD tv on satellite or cable. At that point a lot of current Freeviewers without any satellite dish planning issues may be willing to shell out the extra dosh to go down the FTA BBC satellite route. As soon as the message that satellite can be had without subscription becomes more widely broadcast FTA satellite will take off in a much bigger way.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> The solution would have been to press the Record button, which would have dumped the programme you were watching into a recording and you could have carried on watching it.


Hang on but the program I was watching was already recorded. So I don't understand why you suggest I would have benefitted from the provision of the additional option to press the Record button to dump it to disk as it was already stored on it.

Surely in a situation where Tivo does not need to interrupt the viewer's existing watching to record the new program (this was the case here as the program I was watching was now a finished recording even though earlier on it had been a live recording) then it should have just started recording on BBC1 while leaving me still watching the recorded program on BBC2. There was no need for a warning message because no currently recording or being viewed program needed to be interrupted to start recording the new program.

Instead of this I had to let it switch to BBC1 and start the new recording and then hit the Tivo button and start Long Way Down playing again in BBC2. Also as a result of this whole sequence of events Long Way Round had lost its place marker and I was forced to skip through it manually to the point where I had been watching Long Way Down before The Blair years started its recording.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I see; you weren't watching the recording you were watching a programme which was recording from Live TV (if you'd been watching a recording from Now Playing there would have been no "about to change channels" warning.).

Yes that is a bug, albeit a pretty obscure one which is quite hard to reproduce.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> The flipside of that is that if Murdoch doesn't make you pay a subscription to have access to any Sky+ functionality (even on FTA and FTV channels) then a huge number of base level subscribers paying for only 2 to 6 Mixes may desubscribe entitrely. The only thing to stop that happening is his package deal including broadband some Mixes and sports channels. This is attractive financially in his bundled exchange areas but non existent outside them (accounting for the other 50% of UK homes)..


I don't know the figures any more than you do, but I doubt there are many people subscribing to mixes they don't watch just to avoid the Sky+ fee. Most people who subscribe to the mixes do so because they want the channels which are on them.

Of course most people actually buy the full £40-something package.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I see; you weren't watching the recording you were watching a programme which was recording from Live TV (if you'd been watching a recording from Now Playing there would have been no "about to change channels" warning.).


Tivo treated the situation as being like me having wound back the Live Buffer to an earlier time and it now needing to change channels to carry out a scheduled recording (thus clearing the Live Buffer). But as this program was permanently recorded to the hard drive it ought to have been able to let me go on watching it until the end and changed chanel to BBC1 to start recording The Blair Years.

I find for television that really matters I sometimes end up watching nearly live but often let the program drift back a few minutes if I need to go and get food or whatever during it by pausing. If one doesn't watch some programs live it can then become a few days or weeks and you still haven't watched and before you know it the moment has passed.

My main problem is having too much recording space so I build up too big a library of things to watch. I clearly need to reduce back to only 150 hours at Mode 0 and then things might start to get back vaguely under control.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I don't know the figures any more than you do, but I doubt there are many people subscribing to mixes they don't watch just to avoid the Sky+ fee. Most people who subscribe to the mixes do so because they want the channels which are on them.
> 
> Of course most people actually buy the full £40-something package.


That's only your assumption. Anecdotal evidence on here alone suggests that plenty of people only subscribe to 2 or 4 Mixes.

It is of course the fact that the whole thing is predicated on making you pay £40 per month and that what you get for £16 or £18 per month is not very exciting that makes me generally not want to subscribe at all. My Tivo is still full with endless worthwhile stuff from the FTA channels.

Believe it or not TCM there are actually 15 million or so pauper households out there who don't have pay tv at all. Now admittedly these are not the kind of people who are going to very readily buy your £3 to £4 per time magazines so perhaps they simply aren't worth worrying about in your book.


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## Dazbear (Aug 24, 2001)

My apologies the new Topfield 5810 is not a HD box, but does upscale via HDMI, which having seen the results from my DVD to HDTV is quite impressive!

Just about HD on Freeview - it is already trialling in the Crysal Palace area and Ofcom have said one mux will be reserved for HD in the future and expect to see the main 5 in HD after (if not before) switch over (source - digitalspy)


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Dazbear said:


> Just about HD on Freeview - it is already trialling in the Crysal Palace area and Ofcom have said one mux will be reserved for HD in the future and expect to see the main 5 in HD after (if not before) switch over (source - digitalspy)


Sadly - the London trial ended this summer after 12 months. BBC HD is now only available via satellite and cable - though the BBC Trust have formally approved a full 9 hour a day service via these platforms.

However the BBC Trust have currently postponed any decision on a Freeview service. The initial choice was either to launch a 4 hour service 0200-0600 using existing DVB-T infrastructure (by switching off BBC Parliament, BBC Four/CBeebies and the three BBCi video streams on Mux B during this period, apart from when Parliament sits late) or wait until a decision about DVB-T2 and the future use of digital dividend spectrum has been decided. They are delaying this decision until 2008 now - as they have to balance people needing to buy two HD boxes (one for the temporary 0200-0600 DVB-T service, followed by a replacement for a future DVB-T2 service) with a potentially delayed Freeview HD launch until 2012. It is likely a compromise will be reached I suspect.

Ofcoms suggestion that a 7th mux can be fitted in, and that existing muxes can increase compression of existing services to fit in more are not universally accepted by broadcasters...

I believe there is also an Ofcom requirement for the BBC to switch to 8k 64QAM (as the BBC HD trial operated on) from 2k 16QAM after analogue switch off, and provide Five and C4 with some (all?) of the extra bandwith on one of their muxes that this creates? AIUI this is so that there are just three Freeview muxes Mux 1 (BBC #1 and original BBC mux), Mux 2 (ITV / C4) and Mux B (BBC # 2 and originally an OnDigital mux) that would be required to get all of the original analogue public service broadcasters.

AIUI this is because the current plans for analogue switch off only carry 3 muxes from the approx 2000 transmitter sites (including relays / fill-ins etc.) whilst the other 3 "commercial muxes" (Mux A, C and D) are only currently planned to be carried from their existing transmitter sites?

Any HD via Freeview plans will need to, I suspect, be able to carry 3 HD streams at least, as BBC HD is already on the air, and ITV HD and C4 HD are likely later this year and/or early next, initially via satellite and/or cable.

The BBC HD trial carried a single 1440x1080/50i HD stream (around 19Mbs) taking up a single Mux running at 24Mbs using 8k 64QAM. Any future HD via Freeview system is going to need to be able to carry two HD services in a mux, or a single HD service and a decent number of SD streams. This will require MPEG4 H264 encoders to improve over the ones currently in use - unless 1280x720/50p cross conversion (as used by SVT HD on their DVB-T system in Sweden in 13Mbs) is to be used, delivering inferior HD on Freeview when compared to satellite/cable. The BBC HD trial included a 13Mbs 720p period - and was significantly worse in picture quality terms...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Sneals,

Many thanks indeed for this comprehensive rundown of HD broadcasting possibilities on Freeview.

However in summary any HD broadcasting that will be provided on DTT/Freeview in the next few years is likely to be very limited in quantity and quality and DTT is not the way to go if you want to watch as much HDTV as possible as soon as possible.

Obviously provision of HDTV by broadband also remains an alternate possibility in due course once BT's 21st Century Network is completed in 2011 and so ADSL2+ at least is available on all phone exchanges. Even then those further from the exchanges may have to download an HD program to their hard drive first and then watch it when the download is complete,

Whilst extra space for HD on DTT could be provided by the current anaologue frequencies once switched off it seems more lilkey that the greed of the government will see this spectrum sold off to 3G mobile and WiMax broadband providers.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> That's only your assumption. Anecdotal evidence on here alone suggests that plenty of people only subscribe to 2 or 4 Mixes.


It's not my assumption that most people are on the full package; Sky give the figure in their accounts. I forget the exact number but it is well over 50%. Of course many have cheaper packages; my contention was that they do not have the cheap package to get free Sky+, but because they want the channels in the package.

You place a low value on those channels as you don't want them, others do not.



> Believe it or not TCM there are actually 15 million or so pauper households out there who don't have pay tv at all. Now admittedly these are not the kind of people who are going to very readily buy your £3 to £4 per time magazines so perhaps they simply aren't worth worrying about in your book.


You'll have to do better than that Pete, I'm feeing quite mellow tonight.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> my contention was that they do not have the cheap package to get free Sky+, but because they want the channels in the package.


If so it seems surprising Sky felt the need to so rapidly rebalance the pricing of their Mixes to only £1 extra per Mix (after the new high base line minimum charge of £16) to make it less attractive to only take 2 or 4 Mixes. I would have thought this was almostc cerainly a direct response to the fact that some customers who formerly took a Premium channel and Sky Family pack downgraded to only 2 Mixes once this still gave them access to Sky+ functionality.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> You'll have to do better than that Pete, I'm feeing quite mellow tonight.


If it comes to my preaching the wastefulness of a top Sky sub you could always try and get me over the fact the in October 2003 I took a return trip to New York from London lasting two days I did not otherwise have any reason to make other than to get on my return flight from JFK to LHR on a long thin white plane with a pointy nose that made the whole trip back to London in just over three hours.

Now clearly that was a wasteful frivolours extravagance in some people's eyes (especially the eco weirdy beardies who now want to sweep us off the roads after only 2 speeding convictions) but of course I would ague that I could only afford to make that trip due all the money I had saved by not paying a Sky subscription during the preceding 5 or 6 years......

However no doubt to some who pay for all Sky channels they may consider this to be their own equivalent of the luxuriousness inherent in travelling by Concorde.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Believe it or not TCM there are actually* 15 million or so pauper households out there who don't have pay tv at all*. Now admittedly these are not the kind of people who are going to very readily buy your £3 to £4 per time magazines so perhaps they simply aren't worth worrying about in your book.


What an offensive thing to say! You've made yet another tedious dig at TCM2007 based on your own prejudices and in turn insulted a great chunk of the forum - yourself included Mr Freesat?

*Some of my friends don't have TVs at all*, that's nothing to do with their economic circumstances and more to do with how they value their time.



Pete77 said:


> If it comes to my preaching the wastefulness of a top Sky sub you could always try and get me over...


I do wish you would stop picking fights. It really is bad manners.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Re: Freeview being doomed at a route to HD, you may need to think again:

http://www.brandrepublic.com/MediaA...ial-broadcasters-join-Freeview-HD-initiative/


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> http://www.brandrepublic.com/MediaA...ial-broadcasters-join-Freeview-HD-initiative/


OK interesting but reading more closely it won't really be available in most places till 2012 and undoubtely the HD channel lineup will be limited to one from each of the four terrestrial broadcasters (BBC, ITV, C4 and Five) as otherwise they just won't have any room left to maintain a choice of 30 channels or so in total on Freeview.

In the shorter term like the next 2 to 4 years anyone who wants to watch HD programs (including FTA ones) needs to go the cable and satellite route.

P.S. I'm sorry to hear AMc was offended by any comments I made but I think he is wrong to think I offended you. If you didn't actually enjoy most of our little exchanges on here on the whole then I doubt that you would bother to continue with them.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Ofcom have today published another consultation on renewing licences on DTT for Mux 2 and Mux A.

See www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/tvmux/condoc.pdf

As part of this consultation in Paragraph 4.1 they state:-



> We have been considering, in consultation with multiplex operators and the broadcasters involved, *re-organisation of the use of the existing DTT multiplexes, to enable one of them to be upgraded to MPEG-4 and DVB-T2*. This would increase capacity and hence facilitate the introduction of HD on DTT.


So as you say TCM it sounds like a limited form of HD programming will be coming to DTT in the next few years.

Of course it also makes it sound horribly like Sky Picnic is already a done deal reading between the lines in the above statement.

Either way if this service does get the go ahead Daz would definitely need a new Toppy to get the new HD services.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> ... undoubtely the HD channel lineup will be limited to one from each of the four terrestrial broadcasters (BBC, ITV, C4 and Five)


I think that you overrate the importance of the number of channels, and those that are only available on satellite or cable.

Due to Sky's addition of pin entry on the Premier film channels, I reluctantly cancelled my full Sky sub with my Tivo, and switched to a dual-tuner Freeview setup with Windows MCE and the occasional internet download. Once I got over the change, I found that I had far more to watch by having dual tuners than I ever had to watch with my single-tuner TiVo, and that Freeview had more than enough good content if you have a large enough drive capacity to build up a good backlog.

I find that is helped by Windows MCE in that it can store all episodes of a series in a single folder, and you can then quickly browse large numbers of recordings alphabetically by programme/series name. You don't feel obliged to watch programmes in recording data order, but more according to the type of programme that you want to watch.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> Freeview had more than enough good content if you have a large enough drive capacity to build up a good backlog.


As another one with a very large hard drive capacity, although on a Tivo rather than Windows MCE, and accessing all the Freeview and Freesat channels available I can wholeheartedly agree with you that there is more than enough to watch without ever needing to pay any more than the basic BBC lincence fee. However I am surprised that never occurred to you before when you were frittering away £500 per annum or more to the greedy Murdoch empire.

There is just no need to pay for movies when so many of them reach the FTA stations in a year or two now and my only weakness in terms of subscribing to Sky is the fact that the two week long Dakar rally is only available on Eurosport. For that reason I pay Sky my £15 (now £16) for one month a year.

However regarding each main broadcaster only having one HD channel on Freeview that would be a very big change since at present they are very oriented towards their new complex multi station format whereas a single HD channel from each broadcaster would tend to focus on only the most popular shows with the most viewers and so ironically drag people back in the direction of largely watching the same thing at the same time. Of course in a way that is how the conventional terrestrial broadcasters (especially the commercial ones focused on advertising revenue) would prefer it so you can see why they are now concentrating on pushing this strategy.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I don't think is a strategy as such, just the only practical option.

Movies take two or three years to get to terrestrial, but in less the BBC has them they are punctuated by ads every few minutes; even with a Tivo to FF that's unbearable in my book.

I agree though, my Sky viewing is limited to HD series on Sky One (and the BBC obv.), live sports and the odd film. 90&#37; of viewing is from Freeview on MCE.

So long as Sky has the rugby rights, they've got me; without that I'd pack it in.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> However I am surprised that never occurred to you before when you were frittering away £500 per annum or more to the greedy Murdoch empire.


It seems to escape your attention that one cannot build up so much of a backlog if one only has a single (Sky) tuner and a 160GB TiVo. Twin Freeview tuners allow one to record a lot more programmes from the peak viewing time that would otherwise conflict, and a 500GB MCE setup allows me to store a bigger backlog. I used to use Sky to record a lot more off-peak programmes, which I no longer need to do.


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

iankb said:


> It seems to escape your attention that one cannot build up so much of a backlog if one only has a single (Sky) tuner and a 160GB TiVo. Twin Freeview tuners allow one to record a lot more programmes from the peak viewing time that would otherwise conflict, and a 500GB MCE setup allows me to store a bigger backlog. I used to use Sky to record a lot more off-peak programmes, which I no longer need to do.


I find that a single tuner Tivo can find plenty of repeated showings on Freeview so conflicts are not a problem. A 400GB tivo provides a nice backlog and with VBR enabled, I can get even more programmes stored. Twin tuners is not a real priority for my viewing.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Ultimately it all comes down to how many hours of tv a week you watch. I suspect that iankb watches rather a lot so therefore needs a bigger inwards recording pipeline to ensure that none of the programs from his wider range of viewing tastes are missed.

Ironically I used to watch a lot more tv in total when I didn't have a Tivo (when I also only had a PC in my office and not at my home). Now I have a Tivo I find I am thinking I could always watch that program some other time rather than now and then don't get round to it (if it is not that important to me).

The main reason for this is because of the amount of time I now spend on the internet in general and using internet chat forums in particular.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Iankb 'Watches more TV' or is more picky about what is recorded\watched in limited time available?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ColinYounger said:


> Iankb 'Watches more TV' or is more picky about what is recorded\watched in limited time available?


Frequent recording clashes on the Freeview channels suggests to me a rather high level of actual program consumption.

In all the time I have had my Tivo I have only infrequently been afflicted by the recording clashes problem, despite the Tivo's single tuner


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> Frequent recording clashes on the Freeview channels suggests to me a rather high level of actual program consumption.


What a totally-ignorant assumption. 

In fact, with a total of 4 hours or more travelling to work each day, and long working hours, I get very little time to watch TV.

What I do watch, is often running in the background while I am doing something else; such as sleeping. 

My profile of PVR usage ...


I often choose to record a complete series, watch half an episode a couple of months later, and delete the whole series as not worth watching.

I often fast-wind through recordings, just to watch the relevant bits.

I record the last programme or two of some documentary/news programmes, so that I can look at them if somebody tells me that there was anything interesting on one of them.

A significant part of my recordings are made between 8pm and 10pm, and while there may be no conflicts on some days, other days can see the terrestrial channels intentionally trying to compete when showing major productions.

And while a lot of programmes that other people watch may be repeated, a lot of what I watch is not.

I keep a large buffer of films that I can choose from, and one cannot usually depend on those getting repeated within a short timescale. A lot of those I find I've seen before, and I delete them immediately.

Twin tuners also allow me to watch consecutive programmes on different channels, with overlapping padding.
Pete, you seem to have a very-narrow idea of how PVR's can be used.

I use a PVR to keep a selected set of broadcasts, with the idea that I can then choose to watch what suits my current mood and time-window. I do not use it as a time-shifter, with the intention of watching all recordings at some time in the future.

Although I can understand that my way of using a PVR may not be that typical, I think that I get more benefit out of a PVR than most.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

iankb said:


> My profile of PVR usage ...
> 
> 
> I often choose to record a complete series, watch half an episode a couple of months later, and delete the whole series as not worth watching.
> ...


Snap, particularly on the record whole series then delete it when I finally watch one and find its rubbish.

The two biggest clash generators of clashes for me are Newsnight (on a Keep 1 Sp)
and The Daily Show (on a keep 1), although the latter is not a problem right now with the writer's strike.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

TCM2007 said:


> Snap ...


Basically, I see my PVR as a Personal Video-On-Demand Server, from which I can pick and choose what I want to watch, and not as a Personal Video Recorder in it's traditional sense.

Luckily-enough, I don't have an addiction to a sport with an elongated ball that forces me to hand over money to Murdoch. 

I've got over my personal addiction to new film releases that once made me fork-out my hard-earned cash for the occasional good film. Sky adding pin-entry to premiere films was far more effective and much cheaper than rehab.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> What I do watch, is often running in the background while I am doing something else; such as sleeping.


Have you patented this ability to assimilate recorded programs while you have fallen sound asleep. I wouldn't have thought that was possible via any method short of implanting electrodes in the brain.

Call me old fashioned but I find that when I fall asleep watching tv I have to rewind and watch again from exactly the moment where I fell asleep.

Assuming of course the problem wasn't the boringness of the program itself - in which case pressing the delete button on the whole recording may be the better option.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> The two biggest clash generators of clashes for me are Newsnight (on a Keep 1 Sp) and The Daily Show (on a keep 1), although the latter is not a problem right now with the writer's strike.


It would never occure to me to record Newsnight.

If I can't watch it live then I would rather watch the most up to date news on BBC News 24, CNN or whatever.

I do quite often watch Newsnight live. To me watching recorded news amounts to heresy.

I find the biggest problem with my Tivo is material that falls under the heading of "worthy of watching" and for which I can then never quite find the time or the moment to get round to it. Clearly I should make a rule with myself that if I haven't watched it in 30 days then out it goes rather than clogging up the drive as yet another long term item under Keep Until I Delete.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> It would never occure to me to record Newsnight.
> 
> If I can't watch it live then I would rather watch the most up to date news on BBC News 24, CNN or whatever.
> 
> I do quite often watch Newsnight live. To me watching recorded news amounts to heresy.


Newsnight is an entirely different thing the 24 hour news channels. It's news analysis, not news. There's no comparison between Newsnight and News 24, let alone the others.

If I watch it, it's usually within a few hours of broadcast - hence Keep only 1.


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## dialanothernumb (Dec 6, 2002)

Regarding the OT (not that I didn't enjoy much of the dialogue above) I have just purchased a Toppy, having decided that satellite wasn't for me. I love it. The TAPs I have installed are rock solid, I have networked the box via a linux-based "Slug" (great name!) nad have been converting .rec files to DVD in three steps, with subtitles thrown in - 

I hadn't realised how much I loved fiddling with add-ons, since I got rid of my on networked TiVo and the Toppy does satisfy that ahem... desire.

Obviously I still hover round this community because of the great characters here, but the toppy.org.uk forums are very akin to TC, same sense of community and enthusiasm.

Other things I like about the toppy: The PQ on the main channels is better than Mode 0 for me. The User interface out of the box is not brilliant vs the TiVo, but a TAP called MyStuff with skins, addresses that. As some others have remarked, it is a fantastically quiet box... one issue I had with both the TiVo and Sky +

So, for me, the toppy was a good buy.

Now I wonder, if Pete was willing, could he do a sweeping generalisation of me based on the above? It is awfully entertaining to read his previous work.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

dialanothernumb said:


> Now I wonder, if Pete was willing, could he do a sweeping generalisation of me based on the above? It is awfully entertaining to read his previous work.


How about "you are clearly confining yourself to the world of SD picture quality that is the only format that Freeview currently offers and also the only format that your current Toppy can ever suport and so would have been much better off waiting for a BBC Freesat Toppy next year that would have given you all the great My Stuff Toppy features you have become used to as well as the capacity to record HD programs on a satellite PVR that does not require payment of a monthly sub to Sky". Or alternatively "if only you had taken the advice of other forum members and upgraded your Tivo to one or two Samsung HA250JC drives then you could have made your Tivo every bit as quiet as your Toppy whilst also having the benefit of Suggestions and a three week EPG".

I'm pleased to find though that at least some other forum members do appear to recognise the entertainment value that is surely often inherent in my posts.


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