# Replacing OWNED HR10-250 with LEASED under Protection Plan



## JohnF (Feb 16, 2003)

Hi,

I was very active on this board 3 years ago, part of the obsession and frenzy awaiting the HR10-250 release. I received one the first day Robert sent them out and bought a second one a couple of months later. I have had the protection plan since 2004.

Since 2004, I have had two units replaced under the protection plan. One of my units now has no audio on either of the over the air tuners. I called DirectTV and went through the troubleshooting process with them, and they agreed the unit should be replaced. They could not say if it would be replaced by the same or the HR20.

They said if they replaced my owned equipment under the protection plan, my commitment date would not be extended, but that the replaced equipment would become leased.

They said if I wanted to own a unit, I could purchase the HR20 for $799, but if I needed to at some point replace that unit under the protection plan, the replacement would be leased.

I told them I would keep the existing unit.

I realize that my HR10-250 units don't have much market value today, but I just do not believe in replacing equipment that I spent quite a bit for with equipment that is not mine. I am also paying for a protection plan that is supposed to replace equipment with equivalent equipment, and I think ownership status should be part of what defines "equivalent".

So for now I can live with it, I have the other HR10-250, and I can get the local LA HD channels via satellite. But at some point, if the unit gets worse and I have problems with the HR10-250, I will not stay with DirectTV and at that point, I won't negotiate, I'll just leave and go with Verizon FIOS.

I have heard different things from different CSRs, so I am wondering if others have had the same exerience.

Thanks,

John


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## Bugkillah (Nov 19, 2005)

I didn't have protection plan, but did have an owned unit replaced with a lease unit for free. Play the CSR roulette, see what you get.

My second advice would be to do a self instal on a new hard drive, weeknees. You paid a lot of money for those directivos, I would try to avoid getting under a lease.


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## JohnF (Feb 16, 2003)

Good idea to try different CSRs, thx. I don't think it is the hard drive, but the tuner circuit.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Yeah,I am pretty sure thast what they are saying amounts to theft or at least deceptive marketing / trade practices. You bought the unit, you paid the replacement plan costs all these years which are to replace your unit. Them making it a lease is conversion of your property. Keep trying and hopefully someone with a clue will answer. You might also call your state AG office to see what they think of the whole thing. Usually, they have a staff of people who can answer questions on stuff like this.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

Don't go through the regular CSRs for this. Call the Protection Plan directly. They can replace your owned unit with another unit you own and you won't extend any committment. I've used 1-800-955-4935 in the past. Don't know if that's still a good number for the PP direct.


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## nelsonrl (Jan 7, 2005)

Jon J said:


> Don't go through the regular CSRs for this. Call the Protection Plan directly. They can replace your owned unit with another unit you own and you won't extend any committment. I've used 1-800-955-4935 in the past. Don't know if that's still a good number for the PP direct.


I took this approach and still had an argument with the DirecTV on it. My first bill after activating the new box showed it as owned. Bottom line, I told them I would agree with it being leased once they showed me where I signed a lease agreement, otherwise they were just stealing my unit.


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## MisterEd (Jun 6, 2001)

Did they tell you to KEEP your broken "owned" HR10-250? If so, maybe that is how they get around it since you technically still own it.


JohnF said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was very active on this board 3 years ago, part of the obsession and frenzy awaiting the HR10-250 release. I received one the first day Robert sent them out and bought a second one a couple of months later. I have had the protection plan since 2004.
> 
> ...


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## mx6bfast (Jan 2, 2004)

I had an HDTivo that I owned replaced in December with another HDTivo. I kept the owned status. I also had to send the bad one back.


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## JohnF (Feb 16, 2003)

MisterEd said:


> Did they tell you to KEEP your broken "owned" HR10-250? If so, maybe that is how they get around it since you technically still own it.


No, they said I would have to send them mine.

I will try calling Protection Plan direct - the folks that "helped" me last were tech support.


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## stevecon (Apr 29, 2005)

I have an OWNED HR10-250 that was just upgraded to the HR20-700 last week. I have a protection plan. I had been offered an upgrade in NOV 06 for $99, but was also told I would be upgraded for free, if I waited. This was noted on my account. Wait I did. I called DTV in late March and told them that the drop outs were getting annoying, and I was getting tired explaining to my wife why we endured this for $100 + per month. 

It took some doing, but my deal was a new owned HR20-700 DVR for $99 installed, and my choice of a $99 instant credit - or $20 credit / month for 6 months with no extension in contract (not that it mattered). I opted for the $20 x 6 month credit. I also kept the HR10-250. 

The whole "CSR roulette" is unfortunately, true. I spoke with 3 different reps in 2 different calls to get this, despite the fact that it was noted in my account. The ineptitude of some of these folks is truly amazing - couple that with some major training issues and you end up with what you get. 

What remains however, is that these folks are people, too. No one likes to be yelled at or cursed upon. Treat them the way you'd like to be treated, and calmly explain what the trouble is. Chances are, the front line folks will not be able to help, and you'll be transfered to the 2nd tier folks who should be able to sort it all out - depending on who you get. If you can be calm, respectful and courteous, there's a very good chance you'll get the problem resolved to your liking.

Good luck!


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## JohnF (Feb 16, 2003)

Jon J said:


> Don't go through the regular CSRs for this. Call the Protection Plan directly. They can replace your owned unit with another unit you own and you won't extend any committment. I've used 1-800-955-4935 in the past. Don't know if that's still a good number for the PP direct.


I used that number to reach the Protection Plan department and what a different situation. CSR agreed it did not make sense for the replacement to be leased, and transferred me to Retentions to annotate the account. The CSR in Retentions also agreed that it should remained owned, looked up the page and paragraph of the policy, noted the account, gave me his Rep ID, and transferred me back to the Protection Plan department.

I'll get a new unit - did not "order" an HR20-700, but they said that is what it would be, no cost at all, no need to return the HR10-250, and no extension of the commitment date.

One thing they advised me - if I activate the new access card, the system will automatically change the status to leased. To prevent that, I can either continue to use the old access card, or get transferred to the access card team to register the new card as an exchange, not a new activation.

Great advice, thanks for the responses.

Only one thing I could not do. I am having an International Dish installed tomorrow, and was interested in them swapping the 3 LNB for the 5 LNB at the same time. I was told that normal dish swaps do not result in a commitment extension, but an upgrade does. So I will pass and see if I can make any deals with the installer. Was told he carries a variety of dishes, and I will call the firm early in the morning to ensure he has an extra 5 LNB. We'll see what happens.

Thanks again,

John


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

JohnF said:


> I used that number to reach the Protection Plan department and what a different situation. CSR agreed it did not make sense for the replacement to be leased, and transferred me to Retentions to annotate the account. The CSR in Retentions also agreed that it should remained owned, looked up the page and paragraph of the policy, noted the account, gave me his Rep ID, and transferred me back to the Protection Plan department.
> 
> I'll get a new unit - did not "order" an HR20-700, but they said that is what it would be, no cost at all, no need to return the HR10-250, and no extension of the commitment date.
> 
> ...


I don't understand what all the fuss is regarding lease vs owned. Why would anyone care? You can't use a DirecTV receiver without DirecTV service. The monthly fee is the same whether leased or owned.

If you have a leased unit, you can probably drop the protection plan, since why would you pay to protect a unit you don't own? If the leased unit dies, they either replace it or you drop DirecTV. Given that option, DirecTV most likely will not show you the door.

Bear in mind, DirecTV owns the access card whether you own or lease your receiver. You cannot legally sell a unit with DirecTV's access card in it. DirecTV won't activate a purchased unit, new or used, without a service commitment, so what would anyone's incentive be to buy a used receiver from a private party?

Whether you start a new service with all leased equipment, or buy your own, you still must sign a service commitment, so again, why own?

Does DirecTV offer any units you would want to own????


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## JohnF (Feb 16, 2003)

ShiningBengal said:


> I don't understand what all the fuss is regarding lease vs owned. Why would anyone care? You can't use a DirecTV receiver without DirecTV service. The monthly fee is the same whether leased or owned.
> 
> If you have a leased unit, you can probably drop the protection plan, since why would you pay to protect a unit you don't own? If the leased unit dies, they either replace it or you drop DirecTV. Given that option, DirecTV most likely will not show you the door.
> 
> ...


From a practical sense, your points are valid, but I have a problem spending money to purchase something and paying for a replacement policy, then having an organization tell me what I bought is no longer mine. There is a mentality today that possession is more important than ownership. That same mentality leads folks to buy what they can't afford, then pay off the debt instead of saving first. [Not to start a major discussion - I realize that is not practical with some purchases, but my comment pertains to the general mentality.]


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

ShiningBengal said:


> I don't understand what all the fuss is regarding lease vs owned. Why would anyone care? You can't use a DirecTV receiver without DirecTV service. The monthly fee is the same whether leased or owned.
> 
> If you have a leased unit, you can probably drop the protection plan, since why would you pay to protect a unit you don't own? If the leased unit dies, they either replace it or you drop DirecTV. Given that option, DirecTV most likely will not show you the door.
> 
> ...


Well, access card notwithstanding (which a new buyer can easily get from D* if that is a problem) according to this thread, HR10-250s are going for $200-$300 on ebay right now. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=345507 .


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## mx6bfast (Jan 2, 2004)

Lee L said:


> Well, access card notwithstanding (which a new buyer can easily get from D* if that is a problem) according to this thread, HR10-250s are going for $200-$300 on ebay right now. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=345507 .


This is a good reason for owned vs leased. If you lease a reciever from D* and decide to leave them you have to give the recievers back. If you own the recievers and leave you could sell them and possibly get some of your costs back.


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## jamieh1 (Mar 5, 2003)

The LEASE or OWNED tag is tied to the access card #.
All you have to do is get a replacement sent, then call in to activate it with the access card that is in your current reciever. Every replacement that I have ever got never came with a card.

Ive had 3 HR10s and 1 HR20 replaced. I own 2 HR20s that I got for free from Directv. When I got them the CSR told me since I owned my TIVO HR10s that I could own or lease the HR20s, I choose own. She said when I call in to activate, to ask for the access card dept and tell them to tag the card as owned.
I called and asked for the access card dept and the access card csr didnt ask any questions, she said ok I can help you with that.
Ive replaced one HR20 and changed the card over and still is on my acct as owned.
If they send you a card just leave in the box, activate the old card in the new replacement.
______________________________________________________________

The protection plan is not needed for replacement recievers.
My uncle had a 3 yr old Hughes HD box and it went bad and they sent him out a new H20 HD box free. The rep said that it is there policy to replace the boxes if they go bad.
They will not loose the customer by making them by a new box.

Ive been told that 3 times by directv.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

mx6bfast said:


> This is a good reason for owned vs leased. If you lease a reciever from D* and decide to leave them you have to give the recievers back. If you own the recievers and leave you could sell them and possibly get some of your costs back.


Not really. If you hadn't bought the receiver to begin with, you wouldn't need to try to get "some" of your costs down.

I realize that you had no option other than to buy a DirecTV receiver then. You couldn't lease them.

That situation no longer exists. The fact that some folks would pay good money to buy an obsolete, used piece of hardware does not negate the argument.

With the rapid obsolescence of all consumer electronics, why would anyone want to own any of it? You certainly can't build equity in something that is functionally obsolete in 3-4 years.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

Lee L said:


> Well, access card notwithstanding (which a new buyer can easily get from D* if that is a problem) according to this thread, HR10-250s are going for $200-$300 on ebay right now. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=345507 .


They were selling for $500-$600 a few months ago. So they have depreciated by 50% in a couple of months.

Why would anyone buy anything that depreciates that fast? I guess you could take comfort in the fact that if you buy one today, in a couple of months you will be able to sell it on eBay and get $150 back, less eBay fees, less PayPal fees or about $115.


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## mx6bfast (Jan 2, 2004)

ShiningBengal said:


> Not really. If you hadn't bought the receiver to begin with, you wouldn't need to try to get "some" of your costs down.
> 
> I realize that you had no option other than to buy a DirecTV receiver then. You couldn't lease them.
> 
> ...


Huh?

I bought the HDTivo when Best Buy had the pre-orders for them when they first came out. I've used up and way beyond my $1000 that I paid for it. when I was talking about costs I was talking about the upgrade to the HD-DVR.

How soon do you expect the HDTivo to be obsolete? Last year, next year, 4 years from now? Be mindful that OTA will still be mpeg-2 for much longer than D* will have the SD channels in mpeg-2 format. So technically the HDTivo wont be obselete for quite a long time. There are still people using UTV's are there?

Or let me give you another example, I bought a Hughes E86 HD stb to go in my son's room for OTA only 19 months ago. Sure it wasn't as new as my E86 that I bought in March 2003 but it still works just the same. Obselete? No. And it wont be for 3 - 4 years.


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## mx6bfast (Jan 2, 2004)

ShiningBengal said:


> They were selling for $500-$600 a few months ago. So they have depreciated by 50% in a couple of months.
> 
> Why would anyone buy anything that depreciates that fast? I guess you could take comfort in the fact that if you buy one today, in a couple of months you will be able to sell it on eBay and get $150 back, less eBay fees, less PayPal fees or about $115.


Personal preference.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Actually, they have been fluctuating. They were around $200 before they stopped becoming available from normal sources, then they shot up to the $500 plus range. Now they are closer to what I would sy is the true value. Even if they are worth $100 or whatever the 250 gig drive is at the time, no way am I giving that to DirecTV when I paid for the thing to begin with.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

Lee L said:


> Actually, they have been fluctuating. They were around $200 before they stopped becoming available from normal sources, then they shot up to the $500 plus range. Now they are closer to what I would sy is the true value. Even if they are worth $100 or whatever the 250 gig drive is at the time, no way am I giving that to DirecTV when I paid for the thing to begin with.


I didn't suggest that anyone give away something they bought and own. My argument was simply that there is no advantage to owning vs leasing DirecTV receivers. You pay the same $4.99 per additional "mirrored" receiver whether you own it or lease it.

True value is what someone is willing to pay for something. Consumer electronics almost universally depreciate, and quickly. The rule of thumb, for smart consumers is to own appreciating assets, such as a house, or stocks & bonds, and lease depreciating assets. Of course it isn't always quite that simple.

In reality, the only thing you should consider as a consumer is TCO--"Total Cost of Ownership." In the case of consumer electronics, it is the total cost to use, whether leasing or buying. That includes depreciation and obsolescence, maintenance and repairs, insurance, comsumables (like electricity for DVR's), services necessary to use the product (land telephone line), and cost of disposal at the end of service life.

I challenge anyone who thinks it is a good idea to own DirecTV receivers give me a rational, i.e., economic defense of purchasing and owning DirecTV receivers.


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## beartrap (Nov 8, 2005)

ShiningBengal said:


> I challenge anyone who thinks it is a good idea to own DirecTV receivers give me a rational, i.e., economic defense of purchasing and owning DirecTV receivers.


Leased:
Pay $X upfront lease charge
Pay $Y monthly lease fee
Upon termination of service, must return leased receiver to D*

Owned:
Pay $X to buy the unit
Pay $Y monthly additional receiver fee
Upon termination of service, sell owned receiver for $Z

Obviously, there are plenty of other variables here (i.e. who pays to repair or replace a broken receiver, whether a programming commitment is required, etc.), but this is one simple example of why owning might be better than leasing, if $X and $Y are the same for both scenarios.


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## doug25 (Oct 4, 2005)

If my unit goes bad (without protection plan) and they don't replace it FREE I say Bye. Why should I pay for any equipment which in effect is NEEDED to make them money.


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## mx6bfast (Jan 2, 2004)

doug25 said:


> If my unit goes bad (without protection plan) and they don't replace it FREE I say Bye. Why should I pay for any equipment which in effect is NEEDED to make them money.


Do you have leased or owned equipment?


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

doug25 said:


> If my unit goes bad (without protection plan) and they don't replace it FREE I say Bye. Why should I pay for any equipment which in effect is NEEDED to make them money.


Do you pay for the cellphone that is needed to make your wireless carrier money???

Do you pay an "acquisition fee" to lease a car? (In case you don't know the answer to that one, it is "yes.")

Do you pay the first and last month's rent to rent an apartment or house?

Would you prefer to pay a monthly lease payment on the equipment rather than the one time up-front payment?

I agree it is foolish to pay to replace a receiver that has gone bad...but only because CSR's routinely replace bad equipment even without a protection plan in place. But that's another issue entirely.


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## JohnF (Feb 16, 2003)

ShiningBengal said:


> Do you pay for the cellphone that is needed to make your wireless carrier money???
> 
> Do you pay an "acquisition fee" to lease a car? (In case you don't know the answer to that one, it is "yes.")
> 
> ...


Best to compare to similar or same industry - as far as I know cable companies (have not dealt with them in a few years) and definitely Verizon FIOS TV will provide equipment with no up front cost. If I wanted 2, 3 whatever number of HD DVRs Verizon would just provide at no up front cost and I pay only for the service. And they are not going to try and recover any lost up front costs with higher service fees, because for me it would be less than DirectTV.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

Sounds like you and doug25 would be much better served and happier with your local cable company. Please let us know how that works out for you.


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## JohnF (Feb 16, 2003)

Jon J said:


> Sounds like you and doug25 would be much better served and happier with your local cable company. Please let us know how that works out for you.


I was pointing out one advantage in the up front equipment cost of cable and FIOS versus DirectTV. There are for me at present some other advantages of DirectTV, specifically getting the use of both my HD DVRs that I am quite happy with. I also had a good experience with customer service, following the advice above. I did appreciate your previous tip to call the Protection Plan Dept directly but I think that snide remark was unnecessary.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

Nothing _snide_ about it. Based on your circumstances and needs, you would probably be better served by cable.


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## rborden (Dec 31, 2004)

stevecon said:


> I have an OWNED HR10-250 that was just upgraded to the HR20-700 last week. I have a protection plan. I had been offered an upgrade in NOV 06 for $99, but was also told I would be upgraded for free, if I waited. This was noted on my account. Wait I did. I called DTV in late March and told them that the drop outs were getting annoying, and I was getting tired explaining to my wife why we endured this for $100 + per month.
> 
> It took some doing, but my deal was a new owned HR20-700 DVR for $99 installed, and my choice of a $99 instant credit - or $20 credit / month for 6 months with no extension in contract (not that it mattered). I opted for the $20 x 6 month credit. I also kept the HR10-250.
> 
> ...


I hate to burst your bubble, but if you got a brand new unit then you did in fact extend your contract by 2 yrs.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

rborden said:


> I hate to burst your bubble, but if you got a brand new unit then you did in fact extend your contract by 2 yrs.


Your contract is *not* extended if a failed unit covered by the Protection Plan is replaced.


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## mx6bfast (Jan 2, 2004)

Jon J said:


> Your contract is *not* extended if a failed unit covered by the Protection Plan is replaced.


Correct. But I don't think his unit was replaced. It looks like he upgraded.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

If he had an HR10 and no more are available and he is sent a DTV box, that is also a replacement.


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