# why can't I see the guide while playing a recorded show?



## xanthome

Say I'm watching a recorded show and just remembered that I needed to search for or set a recording for something. I press the guide button. And it kicks me out of my currently watched show, switches to live TV (hopefully it's not recording a sports game I don't want to see or hear the score of!) and shows the guide there. Then when I'm done I have to go back to the now playing list and resume my show.

Very annoying.


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## bgtees

Bumping this back up - is there any way around this? What is the logic behind the Tivo doing this?


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## bcwaller

I had not thought of making this suggestion, but I agree. The guide should overlay whatever is coming out of the box, not tuner #1 or whatever they chose. There are few cases when I want to see the live feed of a tuner anyhow, so why not make the guide part of the video out stream.


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## WhiskeyTango

I don't know of anyway around this or why it is set up this way. But you can hit the Info button to go back to Live Tv to see the Guide and then just hit the left arrow button which will take you right back to the main menu for the show you were just watching. Then just hit Select and the show will resume. So it's only 2 button presses back to the recorded show...Left Arrow, Select...instead of going back through all the menus.


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## lrhorer

xanthome said:


> Say I'm watching a recorded show and just remembered that I needed to search for or set a recording for something. I press the guide button. And it kicks me out of my currently watched show, switches to live TV (hopefully it's not recording a sports game I don't want to see or hear the score of!) and shows the guide there. Then when I'm done I have to go back to the now playing list and resume my show.
> 
> Very annoying.


I have a better idea. Don't use the guide to schedule a recording. It's a waste of time. Better yet, don't use the guide at all. Tivo provides a fabulous set of tools which allow the user to automate virtually every aspect of recording. The gude, any guide, is a waste of time and effort. I haven't used the guide in 8 years.


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## bgtees

lrhorer said:


> I have a better idea. Don't use the guide to schedule a recording. It's a waste of time. Better yet, don't use the guide at all. Tivo provides a fabulous set of tools which allow the user to automate virtually every aspect of recording. The gude, any guide, is a waste of time and effort. I haven't used the guide in 8 years.


Wow, aren't you special. I guess the rest of us imbeciles should just go back to VHS.

None of the "fabulous set of tools" allows me to setup a recording as quickly as my ReplayTV or 8300HD.


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## bcwaller

I'd have to say that the guide is the easiest way to set up recordings for a show when you have some idea when it is on, or to scan for shows. When I got the unit and wanted to set up all my regular shows, the guide was far faster than typing names and letting the unit search. I'm sure if you timed yourself setting up ten season passes using the tools, and the same ten using the guide, the guide would be faster.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but the tools don't seem that quick since you have to go through a few levels and enter in some characters on a screen that does not wrap.


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## BobB

lrhorer said:


> I have a better idea. Don't use the guide to schedule a recording. It's a waste of time. Better yet, don't use the guide at all. Tivo provides a fabulous set of tools which allow the user to automate virtually every aspect of recording. The gude, any guide, is a waste of time and effort. I haven't used the guide in 8 years.


That's a bit extreme. I don't use the guide that much, but there are two cases where I find it a more efficient method of selecting programs than TiVO's menus:

1) When I want to record (or start a Season Pass for) something that will be playing later today. It's much faster to turn on the Guide and pop down a few screens to get to the program than going into TiVO menus and typing out the name (especially as I have an HD TiVO set to Hybrid output, and most of the time when I go in & out of the TiVO menus I have to sit through two five-second format changes on my otherwise-wonderful Pioneer plasma).

2) For scrolling through the schedule for my pay-movie channels. TiVO menus have no way of showing me a list of movies from these channels only.


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## Adam1115

It IS annoying, I like to look at the guide to see if a show is on, or whatever.

The thing with TiVo, the line isn't clear on if your watching livetv or a recording. But you hit the guide and it dumps you right smack into the end of a show, then your scrambling to turn it off so you don't see the ending.

Not a big deal, but kind of annoying.


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## RedMan8

I've always wondered about this too.
Whenever I use the guide, I hit the pause button as soon as the guide appears. That way I don't catch a spoiler!


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## Playloud

Man, I have been thinking of buying a Tivo, as everybody claims the UI is better than any regular DVR box, but things like this really turn me off. My current box (80GB Motorola Moxi SD) will not only keep the recorded program playing, it will leave it in a small window so you can see it while you browse the guide.

The biggest problem I have with my current DVR, is the lack of a grid guide (why oh why didn't they include that?), and I wouldn't mind an increase in storage capacity.

I am starting to wonder if it is worth buying a Tivo, if the interface is not as good as I thought.


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## chaz155

lrhorer said:


> I have a better idea. Don't use the guide to schedule a recording. It's a waste of time. Better yet, don't use the guide at all. Tivo provides a fabulous set of tools which allow the user to automate virtually every aspect of recording. The gude, any guide, is a waste of time and effort. I haven't used the guide in 8 years.


ive always loved the, "I don't need that feature... so you don't either" argument.

it would be nice if it didn't drop you back to live tv. sometimes i just instinctively hit guide not even thinking of whether im watching live or pre-recorded. maybe it will change of of these days. along with an indicator giving you an idea of how much drive space is being used without having to count programs and suggestion hours on a 1TB drive.

C


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## lrhorer

bgtees said:


> Wow, aren't you special. I guess the rest of us imbeciles should just go back to VHS.


You may consider yourself an imbecile if you like, but I really don't recommend it, any more than I recommend going back to VHS. Going back to VHS, however, makes nearly as much sense as using a guide. Unless the user has virtually no discriminatory faculties at all, then better than 90% of the material presented by any guide of any sort (even with the filtering which TiVo allows) is going to be nothing the user desires. For me, it's closer to 99.999%, but then I'm picky. No mater who you are, wading through literally thousands of programs of no interest whatsoever takes a lot of time. Wading through a few dozen or so programs which have better than a 30% or so liklihood of being interesting takes vastly less time. It's certainly less frustrating.



bgtees said:


> None of the "fabulous set of tools" allows me to setup a recording as quickly as my ReplayTV or 8300HD.


Since it takes me zero time, not even one nanosecond, to set up a large fraction of my recordings, I dispute that categorically. I have over 500 HD recordings on my TiVos and my server, and it took me less than 3 or 4 hours of my time total to select them to have them all recorded. It literally takes me longer to select a recording from the list of recorded shows than it does to select them for recording. If it takes you longer to set up your recordings in the Tivo than to use a guide, then you aren't using the tools correctly, or perhaps not at all. That's not a personal insult, it's just a fact.

Frankly, I don't even understand how anyone can claim the guide on any system is even useable, let alone "good". With nearly 400 channels on the local CATV system and an average of better than 12 shows a day per channel, scanning though 14 days of programming in guide style requires I view some 5,000 or more listings to try to pick out the 5 or so I like. How on Earth can anyone claim that's faster? I had an SA 8300HD, and I found it took me upwards of an hour and a half of scanning the guide just to find one or two programs to record. The fact it took FOREVER to scroll down a single screen didn't help, of course.


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## bcwaller

Playloud,

I had a Moxi a while back and I thought it was a pretty good box and had a lot of advantages. The reason I swapped it out was that 80 GB was just not enough space. I was using the Moxi for HD only, and the ReplayTVs for overflow HD and all SD programming. Of course the TV schedule is lighter, but with the Series3 box I can get just about everything on the one DVR.

lrhorer,

I'll race you. I'll go home and set a recording for whatever show is on channel 807 at 9 PM. I expect it will take me no more than ten seconds to get to the point where I have told the TiVo to record the show or series and I'll be waiting for the TiVo to get back to me. Then I'll choose the episode of Dog Whisper that airs next Friday at 8 PM. Time yourself navigating to the menus, typing in the first few letters of the show, and choosing the show (make sure you get the right version of it).

I'll admit that it will be boring jumping through the guide, and I'd love it if there was a 12 hour jump like other DVRs have, but I still think it is faster to skip ahead for a few seconds to make sure I get the right airing of the show.


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## lrhorer

chaz155 said:


> ive always loved the, "I don't need that feature... so you don't either" argument.


'Not even close. If one spots an individual attempting to dig a long, deep trench with a teaspoon when a few feet away sits a very fine shovel, it would be singularly odd not to wonder why the indivudal doesn't use the shovel rather than the teaspoon. Since I try to be the helpful person my parents encouraged me to be, whenever I see such a situation, I am not inhibited about making suggestions. I'll leave it to you to decide is this is in large measure a positive or negative trait.

In this case, the guide was developed in the early 1950s, when there were at most 4 English broadcast TV stations in any market and none of them broadcast more than 14 hours a day. Just as the FAT file system was developed in the 1980s when drives had a few thousand sectors at most and is now quite obsolete, the guide is also obsolete in a time when there are thousands of programs broadcast every week. The guide at its fundamental core assumes one does not have or need random access to the programming information. To use another analogy, it's a little bit like trying to use a tape drive for online storage, requiring the user to read every single file on the tape up to the one of interest just to get that one file.


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## lrhorer

BobB said:


> 1) When I want to record (or start a Season Pass for) something that will be playing later today.


Everyone's life is different, but this in and of itself suggests a less than efficient mindset. I have totally eliminated the notions of "today", "tomorrow", and "next week", or for that matter "six months from now" from my thinking concerning recording programs. It's all essentially the same. Using the guide, however, forces the time-bound mindset back on the individual which in turn wastes both time and effort. In fact, most of the programnming on my TiVo is set up at least a week and half ahead of time, and often months or even years ahead of time. Every time I hear of a movie which has just been released, but does not involve any of the actors, directors, or keywords I have set up in wishlists, I immediately set up a wishlist for the movie and forget about it. The TiVo will wait patiently for months, or even years for the movie to show on HBO, Stars, or whatever. I also set up wishlists on golden oldies. Some of them sit there for a few months, others much longer. I have some which have been patiently waiting 8 years. Of couse, it is rare that I ever get to sit and watch the TiVo until the wee hours of the morning, so "today" is not a very relevant concept in the first place, but even discounting that, it is rare that I ever schedule a program less than 4 days ahead of time, and in fact only a very small percentage of shows are manually scheduled at all.



BobB said:


> It's much faster to turn on the Guide and pop down a few screens to get to the program


What program? How do you know which channel or what program without first searching to find what's on what channel and when? Again, this requires falling back to the very inefficient guide mentality of knowing (or caring about) where or when. It also generally requires some level of research to find out these totally irrelevant things and effort to apply them. Forget about it, and let the TiVo figure those things out and worry about them. You don't have to.



BobB said:


> than going into TiVO menus and typing out the name


Which is why I almost never do that. Searching by name certainly does work, but only if the program is in the schedule and known to be so by the user. I'm far too busy to worry myself with such details and handling the situation this way far too inefficient for me to use such methods very often except when first setting up the Tivo, and even then since I have very little notion of what is on what channel or when, trying to use the guide would take much, much longer.

Of course, trying to use the guide to find something which isn't even in the schedule is completely useless. It just isn't there, so one could search until doomsday and never find it. A large percentage of items I specify are not in the schedule at all. Again, using the guide limits one to what is in the guide, which is a significantly smaller universe than what is and isn't in the guide while failing to filter out most of the garbage. This one of the many things I truly hated about the 8300HD, by the way. Not only was its universe limited to 1 week of prgramming, but it was entirely limited to what waqs in the guide. *I don't CARE if it's in the schedule showing in the next two weeeks or not. I want the box to record it.*



BobB said:


> 2) For scrolling through the schedule for my pay-movie channels. TiVO menus have no way of showing me a list of movies from these channels only.


Of course it does!! At least 3 ways, in fact.

1. Search by channel
2. Filter by movies (this doesn't remove everything but movie chanels, but the percentage of non-pay channels is low and the percentage of non-movie channels very low).
3. Set the pay movie channels as favorites and filter by favorites.

After Suggestions, Wishlists, and Season Passes (which makes up about 85% or more of what I record, my favorite way of browsing is to do this:

Search by Title => HD => Movies=> No sub category => 1 =>​
and then hit the ChDn key again and again until I've scanned all the HD movies in the schedule over the next two weeks. The exact time when each movie is scheduled is irrelevant, and duplicate entires are collapsed into a single entry. Instead of scanning through thousands of entires, I scan perhaps 150. Between 10 -14 days later, I do it again. If the TiVo were faster at displaying these entiores, I coujld breeze through them in about 90 seconds or so, but since it's rather slow, it takes about 7 or 8 minutes. That's it! I'm done worrying about manually scheduling anything for nearly 2 more weeks.


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## lrhorer

Adam1115 said:


> The thing with TiVo, the line isn't clear on if your watching live tv or a recording.


Since I haven't watched a live program other than the news or weather in over 8 years, it's really not difficult for me to know. Again, why would anyone watch a live show? If it's network TV, then one is forced to watch the commercials. If not, then the liklihood I want to watch something which is showing right now is exceedingly low. Even on those occasions when I am able to sit down and watch TV when something I would like to watch right then is playing, I still wait for the show to record at least 20 minutes per hour length of show before I start watching so I can FF through all the commercials. In reality, this doesn't happen very often since it's usually at least 2 or 3 days after a show is recorded before I get the chance to look at it. Often it's several months, if ever. The great thing about the TiVo is it doesn't matter if it was recorded 8 minutes ago, 8 hours, 8 days, 8 weeks, or 8 years.


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## lrhorer

bcwaller said:


> with the Series3 box I can get just about everything on the one DVR.


Oh, not even close. I have a 2Tb Series III, a 1TB Series III, a 500-G TiVoHD, and a 160G Serioes I. Put together they only hold a fraction of the programming, which is why I have the 7TB RAID array.



bcwaller said:


> I'll race you. I'll go home and set a recording for whatever show is on channel 807 at 9 PM.


You're missing my point and the big picture. How do you know you want to record what's on channel 807 at that time? The only way to do so is to have done some level of research via whatever means to find out that the show you want is on at that chanel and that time. If you are using the guide as a means of that research - which is what we are ultimately talking about doing whether you realize it or not - then on average you will have to go through half the guide thgroughout half the time period in question in order to find out that you want to record channel 807 at 9PM. Now of course someone might just happen to tell you the program is on that channel at that time, but that's rather unlikely. Of course it could be a regularly scheduled program on a familiar channel, but if so, why don't you have a Season Pass, or let Suggestions record it for you?



bcwaller said:


> I expect it will take me no more than ten seconds to get to the point where I have told the TiVo to record the show or series and I'll be waiting for the TiVo to get back to me.


But you have to research what you want in some fashion and then you have to intervene to get it scheduled, and you have to do it again and again. All of which is a waste of time, becasue it's unnecessary. I have you beat cold (at least over many iterations) because on average I will be finished at least a week before you, and it will have only taken me a few moments more than you to do it once while you do it again and again and again... I don't know any other way to explain it except to say you are thinking about it in a way that is inherently bound to the guide, which makes the guide seem efficient to you, when in fact it's wasting a tremendous amount of your time and resources. Think of it this way: if you are researching a topic in an online encyclopedia, do you flip through page after page after page like you would using a printed encyclopedia, or do you use the Search utilty?



bcwaller said:


> Then I'll choose the episode of Dog Whisper that airs next Friday at 8 PM.


Boy, do you lose big time. I put The Dog Whisperer in as a season pass about 2 years ago, so I beat you in this race by 2 years. What's more, how many times have you done this in the time the series has been on? I did it one time, 2 years ago.



bcwaller said:


> Time yourself navigating to the menus, typing in the first few letters of the show, and choosing the show


I would almost never do this, because it is inefficient. 'Not as inefficient as using the guide, but inefficient nonetheless. I mean absolutely no disrespect, but your thinking is time-bound and guide-bound, so that even when you deviate in some fashion from using the guide, you are using the available tools in a similar fashion to using the guide, which forces them to be perhaps even more inefficient than the guide. I don't think I've typed in the name of a show in the title search guide in months. When I do type in a name of a show, it's usually in a wishlist, and as I pointed out in a previous post in that case it's rarely in the schedule at all. Instead, I use the tools availabe in the TiVo to narrow down the number of items presented to me from a vast number of mostly uninteresting things to a much smaller number of items of which a good fraction are interesting to me, and then automate the process of selecting those items as much as is possible. The remainder consists of selecting 5 or 6 shows every 2 weeks from a collection of lists containing perhaps 200 items or so.

Being guide-bound, your thinking is also sort of backwards from the most efficient way of looking at the situation. Although sometimes pertinent, the main question is not, "How do I get the DVR to record this particular program", but rather, "What programs do I want the DVR to record?" With a VCR and using the guide either of these questions beg the further questions of "where" and "when". I submit using the guide has ingrained in you the autoimatic reflex to seek the answers to those questions (as evidenced by the way you structured your challenge to me), but they are only really relevant when using the guide. My TiVos record thousands of shows for myself, my family, and my friends to enjoy, but I couldn't tell you when or on what channel any more than a very small handful will be recorded without looking, and I have no reason to look. I think I may have scheduked a certain show to be recorded at a certain time perhaps 2 or 3 times in the last 8 years.



bcwaller said:


> I'll admit that it will be boring jumping through the guide, and I'd love it if there was a 12 hour jump like other DVRs have, but I still think it is faster to skip ahead for a few seconds to make sure I get the right airing of the show.


Again, you are tying yourself needlessly to the limitations imposed by using the guide. The entire notion of a "right airing" is time-bound. You are wasting your time by worring about such things rather than letting the TiVo manage them automatically. Set up the season pass or three-thumbs it to get it into Suggestions and let the Tivo worry about which episode to record and when to do it.


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## Adam1115

lrhorer said:


> Since I haven't watched a live program *other than the news or weather* in over 8 years, it's really not difficult for me to know. Again, why would anyone watch a live show? If it's network TV, then one is forced to watch the commercials.


Your own statement contradicts yourself. So you yourself watch news and weather live.

1) Sporting events. I watch them live. Also I like to have the option to change channels during half time, or breaks, or whatever.

2) News, emergencies or breaking news. A good example will be the presidential race. I want to watch live, but leave the option open so I can flip between news channel. But now my tivo will start changing to record a suggestion right in the middle of it.

3) Guests, who just want to watch the news or channel surf.


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## WayneCarter

> Your own statement contradicts yourself. So you yourself watch news and weather live.


I believe the key phrase is "other than" - I read "Since I haven't watched a live program *other than* the news or weather in over 8 years" as "the only live TV he's watched in the last 8 years is news and weather". Hardly a contradiction.



> But now my tivo will start changing to record a suggestion right in the middle of it.


So you just press "Record" while on the channel you wish to be able to switch to. When you want to unlock the show, just press "record" again.


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## chaz155

lrhorer said:


> 'Not even close. If one spots an individual attempting to dig a long, deep trench with a teaspoon


deep trench with a teaspoon? whoa.. dude, we're talking tv here not farm work ;-)

i like the guide and think its very functional. your way, and im sure it works fine for you.. doesnt do it for me the way i use my tivo. i dont think they sent these uniformed tivo boxes out the door expecting everyone to use them one way or we wouldnt have more than one option as to how we can select our programming. whats good for the goose aint always good for the gander.

C


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## lrhorer

Adam1115 said:


> Your own statement contradicts yourself. So you yourself watch news and weather live.


I have upon rare occasion done so, not because I want to see them live, but because news and weather are available on an ongoing basis, so the odds of a news or weather broadcast being available when I want to watch them are not minuscule. I still record the news and the weather, and much more often than not I watch recorded versions of them.



Adam1115 said:


> 1) Sporting events. I watch them live.


Why? It's a waste of your time. Actually, personally I consider watching sports at all a complete waste of time, but you are free to watch whatever you like and it's not up to me to judge its worth to you. The point is, however, there is no added value to watching the event live versus a recording. It's quite simple, really, you can watch the entire game and have it take a 3 hour chunk out of your life, or you can watch the entire game and have it take a 2 hour and 15 minute chunk out of your life. What value is spending the extra 45 minutes doing nothing in particular? Again, this mindset is time bound, and the primary function of the DVR is to eliminate being time-bound.



Adam1115 said:


> Also I like to have the option to change channels during half time, or breaks, or whatever.


To what end? So you can see a few fragments of a whole bunch of things you don't want to watch and would never watch if you weren't bored with the programming of the moment? Why not just eliminate the half time show and the breaks completely? With the extra 20 minutes or so you can then watch a non-fragmented show, or read a book, or talk to your family.



Adam1115 said:


> 2) News, emergencies or breaking news. A good example will be the presidential race.


If it's a local emergency, then the TiVo will flip over to it automatically, so that's a non-issue. "Breaking" news is no different than any other news, and it's just as pertinent (or not) a couple of hours later as it is when first broadcast, the news media's hype notwithstanding.



Adam1115 said:


> 3) Guests, who just want to watch the news or channel surf.


That's not relevant to this discussion. Your guest is not a daily user of the TiVo, and surfing at your house won't ultimately waste months of their lives.
That said, none of my guests have ever surfed at my house. With hundreds of great programs at their fingertips available for play from the beginning, what would be the point?


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## lrhorer

chaz155 said:


> i like the guide and think its very functional. your way, and im sure it works fine for you.. doesnt do it for me the way i use my tivo.


You are missing the point. You are free to use your TiVo any way you want. Heck, you don't even need to bother to turn on the TV, if you really want. You are free to sit and stare at a blank screen for hours on end if you like. The point is, using the guide eats up a great deal of time which could better be used doing something else. If you want to waste many hundreds of hours of your life, then it's your choice, but I don't have an unlimited amount of time at my disposal, and I certainly don't want to spend any time on an aggravating and useless task like flipping channels and searching endlessly through a morass of totally uninteresting material when the tools are available to eliminate such things entirely and free the user up to do other things. I am well aware this is not the way you use your TiVo. What I am telling you is there is a better way. Use it or not, as you like. That said, I am not inclined to listen to complaints about a guide system when a much better system exists. 'Not only a much better system, but an INHERENTLY much better system.



chaz155 said:


> i dont think they sent these uniformed tivo boxes out the door expecting everyone to use them one way or we wouldnt have more than one option as to how we can select our programming. whats good for the goose aint always good for the gander.


Well, first of all, it almost always is. What's more to the point, however, is the guide was always a poor way of handling the situation, even back in 1953, but there just wasn't a technology available to handle the situation more elegantly. At that time, however, the very limited scope of the TV programming made the flaws in the guide of little importance. It's 45 years later, though, and now we have thousands of programs to sift through, not just a few dozen, and we now do have the technology available which eliminates the flaws of the guide.


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## Adam1115

lrhorer said:


> Why? It's a waste of your time.
> 
> Actually, personally I consider watching sports at all a complete waste of time, but you are free to watch whatever you like and it's not up to me to judge its worth to you.
> 
> With the extra 20 minutes or so you can then watch a non-fragmented show, or read a book, or talk to your family.
> 
> "Breaking" news is no different than any other news, and it's just as pertinent (or not) a couple of hours later as it is when first broadcast, the news media's hype notwithstanding.
> 
> That's not relevant to this discussion.


I honestly can't believe you are trying to *convince* me that I watch TV wrong, and are taking jabs at my family life.

How about you watch TV the way you want, and I'll do the same. I really could care less if you like sports or understand why I want to watch them the way I do. Or what your opinion is of the news media.



lrhorer said:


> If it's a local emergency, then the TiVo will flip over to it automatically, so that's a non-issue.


I have _*no*_ idea what you are talking about. MY TiVo does no such thing.



lrhorer said:


> You are missing the point. You are free to use your TiVo any way you want.


Really? Then why are you aruging with people who do things differently then you do?



lrhorer said:


> but I don't have an unlimited amount of time at my disposal, and I certainly don't want to spend any time on an aggravating and useless task like flipping channels
> 
> That said, I am not inclined to listen to complaints about a guide system when a much better system exists.


If you have so many better things to do than 'listen to complaints', why are you sitting here arguing with people who think something should work differently than you do? Close the thread, read a book, spend time with your family.


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## Jonathan_S

Adam1115 said:


> lrhorer said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's a local emergency, then the TiVo will flip over to it automatically, so that's a non-issue.
> 
> 
> 
> I have *no* idea what you are talking about. MY TiVo does no such thing.
Click to expand...

I think lrhorer is referring the the cablecard requirement that any cable card receiver change to a designated channel when the emergency broadcast system activates.

So TiVo S3 and TiVoHD boxes, with cable cards, will "flip over [...] automatically" if the emergency broadcast system is used.

But that still wouldn't help if you were using an older TiVo or if the local emergency didn't get announced over the emergency broadcast system.


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## Adam1115

Jonathan_S said:


> I think lrhorer is referring the the cablecard requirement that any cable card receiver change to a designated channel when the emergency broadcast system activates.


Oh, I don't have cablecards...


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## bcwaller

I think the problem is that a few people read these forums and forget that they are called "TiVo Suggestion Avenue" as opposed to some kind of a Help forum. The idea here is that real users (likely newer users who don't have terabytes of storage and years of history for their TiVo to record shows for them without work) have ideas for ways to make *their* experience better.

It's fine to reply that you don't think the idea is needed because there are other ways to do it, but stop telling other people they are doing it wrong unless you want others to tell you that you are wrong and have a pissing contest.

For example, you are wrong about the guide. I guess since you never use it you don't know that some people filter the channels to the ones they watch, which might drop it to less than a hundred. Then, they might only be checking the HD channels, which means to look at an entire night's schedule takes about a minute.

Remember, there are lots of people who buy these boxes and want to record shows. How can a month old box be able to know someone wants to watch one episode of the Dog Whisperer that was shot a block from his house, let alone a new series that starts up. Not everyone has had the box for so many years that it can read their minds and record what is needed based on dozens of season passes, thumbs ups, wish lists, name searches, or title searches. I'm happy that after all these years of setting up your TiVo that *you* never need the guide to find a show, but in the real world many of us do.

I like to watch sports recorded instead of live, but I still like to use the guide to choose which football game I want to watch on any given Sunday. If someone else wants to watch them live, so what? It is their time they spend, and it is not wasted if they are watching something else in the dead times. Maybe they want to know the winner in real time and don't want to have it spoiled for them? I'll tell them I like to watch a game in 90 minutes by skipping between plays as well as commercials and half time, but if they don't agree I'm not going to tell them they are doing it wrong.

I don't have one team I like to watch, so I pick and choose the games. I don't have terabytes of space to record every game (and I only watch sports in HD) and then delete the ones I don't want. Since I could not tell you which teams I want to watch in any order (it is the teams and the match-ups, compared to the other games), I have no idea how the TiVo could figure this out.


----------



## lrhorer

Adam1115 said:


> I honestly can't believe you are trying to *convince* me that I watch TV wrong, and are taking jabs at my family life.


I am not taking jabs at your family life. I am merely pointing out to you that you are wasting a great deal of time which could better be spent elsewhere. That you choose to waste it does not change the fact.

If you use the guide to schedule shows every night, you will be wasting between 2 and 10 minutes every night of your life for perhaps another 40 years, because you could achieve the same or better results using up only 10 minutes or less every two weeks. Allowing for 8 hours a day sleeping and 35 hours a week working, that adds up to between 44 and 220 days of your life spent fiddling with the guide for a process whose end result is of lower quality than one which could have taken you an aggregate of about 7 days. Add an average of one live sporting event and 4 hours of live network programming a week and that number jumps from about 130 days give or take to *more than 3.75 YEARS* of your leisure time spent staring at a TV showing something you don't particularly care to watch.

And yes, if you watch TV in the way you say you do, then your viewing is inefficient. That is not a personal slam, it's just a fact. If you told me you were driving a route to work every day which took you an hour to get to your job from your house, would you be insulted if I pointed out there was a route which only took 45 minutes and would use less gas? If you told me I would do better to lose some weight and get back into shape, you would be right, and I would neither argue nor take offense. It's just a fact.

The TiVo provides a way for you to watch more television of a higher quality (you and you alone being the judge of what constitutes better quality) in less time than the way you do now.

It's that simple.



Adam1115 said:


> How about you watch TV the way you want, and I'll do the same.


You are free to do so. I never said you had to do anything. I merely pointed out there is a much better way.



Adam1115 said:


> understand why I want to watch them the way I do.


Oh, I understand why, very well. As an engineer whose responsibility it is to introduce new systems to users on a regular basis, I am frequently confronted with people who do not wish to change their way of doing things, no matter how inefficient or ineffective their old processes may have been. I had to explain it to one of my people just today. He of course doesn't have a choice. He'll have to change, or it's out the door. You are not faced with any such a serious dilemma, only the choice of embracing a new and more effective technology or continuing to do what you have done for years at a cost of losing several years out of your life.



Adam1115 said:


> Or what your opinion is of the news media.


Actually, that opinion applies not so much to the news media per se, but more to the advertising departments affiliated with the broadcasters who produce the news. That's another discussion.



Adam1115 said:


> I have _*no*_ idea what you are talking about. MY TiVo does no such thing.


I keep forgetting when I am not posting on one of the Series III conferences. If you don't have a Series III, then you're right, it doesn't. If you have cable service on a Series III, then any emergency alert warning will force your TiVo to switch to the Emergency Alert. It's actually a rather annoying feature, until it saves someone's life. I do wish it didn't do it just for the tests, however.



Adam1115 said:


> Really? Then why are you aruging with people who do things differently then you do?


Well, first of all, a spirited debate is intended to stimulate thinking. Secondly, the best way to discover better methods of handling various aspects of our lives is to expose and explore alternate ways of doing things and evaluate the relative merits of each one. Finally, because there is a very clear advantage to cutting down the amount of time and effort required to perform a task. Three and three quarters of a year of one's time is one heck of a lot of time to wait for something interesting to come back on.



Adam1115 said:


> If you have so many better things to do than 'listen to complaints'


That is not what I said, as anyone can plainly see by the quotes above. I said I don't have time to waste flipping channels, and I don't. I intend to make very good - if occasionally naughty - use of that extra 3.75 years. Then I said


> I am not inclined to listen to complaints about about a guide system when a much better system exists


 Perhaps it would have been clearer if I had said, "not inclined to listen passively to complaints about an inherently bad system when a better one already exists." That means I do exactly what I am doing: point out that no amount of tweaking or re-working can make an antiquated, inherently limited system like a guide to be anything but poor.



Adam1115 said:


> why are you sitting here arguing with people who think something should work differently than you do?


Well, I could easily ask you the same thing, but the fact is it's none of my business why you choose to post and none of yours why I choose to post. Similarly, it's none of my business why you might choose to use one method of recording over another. What is my business and the business of those who read this thread is what methods can be employed and how well they work. If you are personally offended by the fact the one you choose is less efficient and less effective, I really can't help it. If you think you can prove your method is not less effective and less efficient, then provide the evidence and show me to be the fool you think I am. Saying, "I don't like doing it that way" is not evidence.



Adam1115 said:


> Close the thread


I didn't open the thread



Adam1115 said:


> read a book


I will, thanks. The extra time afforded by not using the guide helps. In fact, I ordered 8 books from Amazon.com just this past Sunday, and I intend to read the better part of two of them this weekend, unless I have company come over or something else manages to break down around here.



Adam1115 said:


> spend time with your family.


Fortunately (or perhaps unfortunately), I will, whether they like it or not.


----------



## Devx

I agree with what you guys said about the guide. It would be much better if Tivo would get rid of that limitation of switching to live tv everytime. We are on the 3rd series afterall by Tivo's own notations.

And since we're talking about alternate scheduling, does anyone use online scheduling for any of their stuff? I rarely use the guide either but it's not because I use other tools on the Tivo box, it's because I find using online scheduling better. It doesn't carry the delays the Tivo has and you're free to do multiple searches at the same time. As the new season approaches and new shows come out, it's common for me to go to online scheduling and have multiple searches all working for me at the same time.


----------



## lrhorer

bcwaller said:


> The idea here is that real users (likely newer users who don't have terabytes of storage


A Terrabyte of storage costs less than a TiVo. Indeed, one can easily purchase 1TB TiVos.



bcwaller said:


> and years of history for their TiVo to record shows for them without work) have ideas for ways to make *their* experience better.


Their experience will be better if they abandon the guide. It won't be as familiar, and it will take some getting used to, but so does any change for the better. Unless someone can show that a method which allows the user to watch more programming of a more enjoyable nature in less time is somehow not "better", or that there is a different method which allows even more to be watched in less time, the statement stands. "I don't don't want to try to do it that way" is not a substitute for "better".



bcwaller said:


> It's fine to reply that you don't think the idea is needed because there are other ways to do it,


It's not that there are just other ways to do it. It's that the guide method is inherently limited. And as far as watching TV live, is there anyone out there who actually claims they like commercials? That they prefer missing the first ten minutes of a program?



bcwaller said:


> but stop telling other people they are doing it wrong unless you want others to tell you that you are wrong and have a pissing contest.


So you can tell me I'm posting wrong but I can't tell them they are watching wrong?

I never used the word "wrong". The simple fact is anyone who uses a guide and watches live TV is spending years of their lives messing with the guide and watching things they don't want to watch. Why do it when it's unnecessary?



bcwaller said:


> For example, you are wrong about the guide. I guess since you never use it you don't know that some people filter the channels to the ones they watch


I am perfectly aware of it. It merely means they will miss being able to see any shows on a channel they don't usually watch. It also means they have to waste enough time finding out what is on those channels to know they don't want to watch them. In that same amount of time they could easily have the TiVo set up to get a much greater percentage of what they want in less time moving forward. There are dozens of channels from which my TiVos rarely record anything, but if a show I happen to like does come on one of those channels, I won't miss it.



bcwaller said:


> which might drop it to less than a hundred.


That's still more than 8400 programs a week to sift through.



bcwaller said:


> Then, they might only be checking the HD channels, which means to look at an entire night's schedule takes about a minute.


Only if they have a rather limited number of HD channels available. The CATV system here has 36 HD channels, excluding VOD and PPV HD channels. More to the point, however, you have just demonstrated my point very eloquently. Why limit one's self to "that night"? Answer: "Because the guide pretty much forces one so to do." I scan the filtered contents of 14 days of programming on hundreds of channels in less than 10 minutes, I don't have to do it again for another 14 days, and I will catch a program I like even if it is on a channel I have never watched before and will never watch again. Indeed, as I already said more than once, I couldn't tell you what channels 95% of the programs I watch are on, and there is no reason I should care.



bcwaller said:


> Remember, there are lots of people who buy these boxes and want to record shows. How can a month old box be able to know someone wants to watch one episode of the Dog Whisperer that was shot a block from his house, let alone a new series that starts up.


Suggestions and wishlists. It took the TiVo I purchased in January last year less than 2 weeks to get a very good handle on what I like. More to the point, what the TiVo does in the first month isn't really very relevant. I am talking about the amount of time a person can save over the next 40 or 50 years (of course they will no doubt go through a number of DVRs or whatever the next generations of recorders are called). If he has to spend an extra 8 or 10 hours in the first month or two of owning the boxes to save more than 3 years of wasted time, you're claiming it's not worth it?



bcwaller said:


> Not everyone has had the box for so many years that it can read their minds


It takes about two weeks for the TiVo to get good at figuring out what a person likes, and about a month to get really good. The TiVo I purchased in January of last year suggests about 70% of the same shows as the one I've had for two years, and it suggests better than 90% of the same shows the one I have had 8 years. I have entirely different schedules on the 3 (of course) and I have rarely watched the same show on more than 2 of them. I did not consciously try to make their suggestion lists anything remotely similar, yet all three have a good idea of the things I like.



bcwaller said:


> and record what is needed based on dozens of season passes


A season pass takes a few seconds to set up if one accepts the defaults, and a minute or two to set up if one wants to change the defaults. It then records the program for however many decades it may be on - or until the TiVo goes croak. I have over 3 dozen season passes set up, which took me a total of less than an hour, and they will record literally tens of thousands of programs - every one of which I like - over the next several years. What's the down side? They also record the news and save 1 only copy, so I always have access to the most recent news.



bcwaller said:


> thumbs ups


Requires a fraction of a second while watching a program, person, director or genre you like (or dislike). The result can be years of a huge variety of programs one loves being recorded or automatically presented to the user. What's the down side, especially when one can do it while watching the shows without interrupting the show?



bcwaller said:


> wish lists


Will record movies, documentaries, sporting events, soap operas, favorite actors, favorite directors, or interesting topics selected years before they even are scheduled. Whenever Clint Eastwood makes another movie and it is released on cable, it will be recorded. Whenever a Bogart film comes on at 2 AM (or 10AM, or 2 PM, or ...), it will get recorded. Whenever Planet Earth is broadcast in HD (rather than SD) again, it will be recorded. Whenever they release the third Pirates of the Caribbean on cable, it will be recorded. If they ever play Scaveneger Hunt on any channel again, it will be recorded. All of that and dozens more took less than 3 hours total to enter in. What's the down side?



bcwaller said:


> name searches, or title searches.


Are the same thing, and it is generally inefficient, so I rarely use it except to do one thing: browse every HD movie displayed time-independently which will be on in the next two weeks by selecting "1" as the name. 'Try it some time. Select

Search by Name or Title => HD => Movies => No Sub Category => 1 =>​
I just timed it and it took me 15 seconds to bring up the list of all 288 different HD moves playing in the next two weeks. This represents probably more than 3000 listings on more than 12 different channels (I don't get all the HD channels, and it's unlikely any of the movies are on ESPNHD, CNNHD, etc.) over the next 14 days. It took me 2 minutes 54 seconds from the time I selected Search by Name or Title until I had reviewed the entire list. I read each and every title on the list, and made a mock decision whether to record it or not.

Then I went to the Channel Settings, removed all non-HD favorites, and selected every HD channel I receive as a favorite. This took 2 minutes. Next I went to live TV and pulled up the guide settings. I selected the grid guide, only favorites, and filtered by movies. I then began skimming through the guide at top speed without taking any time at all to read the titles or make any decision whether any of the titles should be recorded or not. It took 11 minutes, 39 seconds. Realistically, if I had actually been looking to record some shows, it would have taken me more than 30 minutes, and maybe more than an hour, and I would never have been able to remember whether I had already selected a program to record or not without writing it down. If I had limited myself to one day, it would still have taken more than 2 minutes, and I would have to do the same every day to employ the same level of scrutiny.

Explain to me again how 30 - 60 minutes is faster and easier than 3? How keeping track of which one of 3000 showings I have already selected to record is easier than simply moving in one direction in a time-independent list?



bcwaller said:


> I'm happy that after all these years of setting up your TiVo that *you* never need the guide to find a show


Excepting the occasional new series and new movies release, it takes less than a single evening to set up a TiVo so that within a month or two it will be recording vastly more prime quality content than a person could ever watch and be able to present the individual with several dozen or several hundred programs ready to start, stop, and switch the moment one wishes every time they sit down. You and the others talking about using the guide are the ones who do something every night to record something. That "one minute" every night adds up to the better part of a year at the end of a lifetime. For the "joy" of watching live TV and slogging through commercials, the casual TV watcher wastes over a year of their lives. The avid TV watcher can spend better than the equivalent of 10 years of their leisure time watching commercials. *TEN YEARS*.



bcwaller said:


> I like to watch sports recorded instead of live, but I still like to use the guide to choose which football game I want to watch on any given Sunday.


I just ran another test. It took me precisely 24 seconds to create a wishlist with a category of HD : Sports : Football. Try it. 24 seconds and you will never have to do it again. Of course it's not the season, now, so that wishlist only brings up 5 entires. I did the same with Basketball and it brought up 77 entries. That could easily be cut by more than 2/3 by excluding the terms "college" and "pregame", and maybe "women" - unless of course you want to record college games, women's leagues, and pre-game shows. Right then and there you can schedule every game you want to watch in the next two weeks manually in only a little more time than it takes you to schedule 1 game using the guide.



bcwaller said:


> If someone else wants to watch them live, so what? It is their time they spend, and it is not wasted if they are watching something else in the dead times.


I find it seriously difficult to believe anyone actually WANTS to spend several years of their lives doing that. It's up to them, but don't expect me to respect their choice. I am compelled to respect their right to make the choice, but not to respect the choice itself. That said, I really suspect most people don't bother to even think about how much time they waste doing things they don't want to do yet don't have to do. I'm willing to bet if prior to this conversation you had asked most of the participants in this thread how much time they spend throughout their entire life watching commercials if they limit themselves to live programs they would have answered, "Oh, a few days". How many people have really bothered to do the math and realize they may spend ten years' worth of their leisure time watching nothing but commercials?



bcwaller said:


> Maybe they want to know the winner in real time


And yet again the time-bound thinking. "Real time" only has meaning when the viewer does not have control of when the program starts and stops. When the viewer has full control of the event, "real time" is whenever he decides to press <Play>.



bcwaller said:


> and don't want to have it spoiled for them?


Spoiled how? How does taking a 3 hour football broadcast, removing the bulk of the commercials, time-outs, and halftime show in which the viewer is not interested, and presenting them with a 100 minute program filled with noting but football spoil it? Let me put it this way, how many people if given the ability to magically prevent the teams and broadcasters from taking time-outs, broadcasting commercials, and doing a half-time show would not exercise that magical power?



bcwaller said:


> I'll tell them I like to watch a game in 90 minutes by skipping between plays as well as commercials and half time, but if they don't agree I'm not going to tell them they are doing it wrong.


So you tell them they are doing it wrong without using the word "wrong". I didn't use the word, either.



bcwaller said:


> I don't have one team I like to watch, so I pick and choose the games.


Use the guide and after forty years or so of choosing the games you will have spent maybe a week or more just in choosing the games. Use the wishlist, and you will cut that down to a few hours, maybe a day. Be a little clever in creating the wishlist, and you can cut it down to a few minutes. It's also much, MUCH easier to utilize the wishlist.



bcwaller said:


> I don't have terabytes of space to record every game (and I only watch sports in HD)


1TB hard drives can be had for $270, and a good enclosure is $59. No matter what, I suggest you get one, but since you watch mostly SD, your 1TB is as "big" as my 7TB. 1.2TB of storage will get you just under 200 hours of HD recording, and something like 1000 hours of SD. I have a total of 10TB because I have over 500 HD movies on tap, including some monsters like Exodus, Judgment at Nuremberg, and The Sound of Music, and I'll have over a thousand before it's all said and done. I also have several hundred SD episodes of TV series like Star Trek, Star Trek the Next Generation, Frasier, and Wings.



bcwaller said:


> and then delete the ones I don't want. Since I could not tell you which teams I want to watch in any order (it is the teams and the match-ups, compared to the other games), I have no idea how the TiVo could figure this out.


Even if your selection criteria is completely random, and not susceptible to any logic, it's still far faster and easier to take that 24 seconds to set up the wishlist and select the 5 or 6 (or 10 or 20) games you want to watch over the next 2 weeks from the list of nothing but HD football shows.


----------



## lrhorer

Devx said:


> And since we're talking about alternate scheduling, does anyone use online scheduling for any of their stuff?


No, I've tried it, but it's too slow and cumbersome. It can't filter by HD content and it requires the user to know for what he is searching. If one knows for what one is searching, a wishlist is just as fast to set up and much more flexible. I sometimes use TiVoWebPlus, but usually only to do bulk deletes after shows have been transferred to the server.


----------



## Adam1115

lrhorer said:


> I am merely pointing out to you that you are wasting a great deal of time which could better be spent elsewhere. That you choose to waste it does not change the fact.


Boy are you the king of assumptions.

I guess this weekend I'll have to postpone my playoff party because we're wasting SO much of my life watching it live. 

Oh wait, a playoff party is not a waste of time to me, only to you. To ME it ISN'T a waste of time.



lrhorer said:


> If you use the guide to schedule shows every night, you will be wasting between 2 and 10 minutes every night of your life for perhaps another 40 years, because you could achieve the same or better results using up only 10 minutes or less every two weeks.


ROUND 2 of ridiculous assumptions. Of course I don't schedule my shows every night. Once in awhile, usually when new season premiers are coming out I go to my favorites (which are only locals) and see what's coming on. That's twice a YEAR. Apparently I don't waste as much time watching TV as you. 10 minutes? More like 10 seconds, it's all on one screen.

Mostly on Sunday I want to see what football games are on and on what channels.



lrhorer said:


> If you told me I would do better to lose some weight and get back into shape, you would be right, and I would neither argue nor take offense. It's just a fact.


You might if I had no clue what I was talking about and just assumed you were overweight and out of shape...



lrhorer said:


> I am frequently confronted with people who do not wish to change their way of doing things, no matter how inefficient or ineffective their old processes may have been.


I can see how that's challenging for you, if you assume the people are just doing it wrong and talk down to them without trying to understand WHY they do it the way they do.

I, on the other hand am in a similar situation, but I understand that there is more than one way to do something and that everyone works a little bit differently. Making everyone do everything the same way I do just because I think it's right and talking to them like they're stupid if they don't listen is just going to make people think I'm an a-hole.



lrhorer said:


> *He'll have to change, or it's out the door.*


Yes, I'm clear on how you think. Your posts in this thread make much more sense in this contact.

That kind of attitude will weed out productive and creative people, you'll be left with people that mindlessly follow your 'process' without any common sense.

Ever heard of the expression ''There's more than one way to skin a cat'.'?



lrhorer said:


> You are not faced with any such a serious dilemma, only the choice of embracing a new and more effective technology or continuing to do what you have done for years at a cost of losing several years out of your life.


WOW, this made me laugh out loud. I really didn't think watching the game with my buddies was such a serious life dilemma. Are you kidding me?



lrhorer said:


> I keep forgetting when I am not posting on one of the Series III conferences. If you don't have a Series III, then you're right, it doesn't. If you have cable service on a Series III, then any emergency alert warning will force your TiVo to switch to the Emergency Alert. It's actually a rather annoying feature, until it saves someone's life. I do wish it didn't do it just for the tests, however.


Do you see your pattern of assumptions? I do have a series3. You assumed I use my series 3 like you do, but I don't have cablecards.



lrhorer said:


> A Terrabyte of storage costs less than a TiVo. Indeed, one can easily purchase 1TB TiVos.


You can get a Series 2 TiVo for free.

Oh wait, did you *assume* everyone has the same TiVo you do?


----------



## lrhorer

Adam1115 said:


> Boy are you the king of assumptions.


Not at all. One must however sometimes make assumptions, but I refrain from doing so as much as possible without at least qualifying the statements as assumptive.



Adam1115 said:


> I guess this weekend I'll have to postpone my playoff party because we're wasting SO much of my life watching it live.


No, but you have a choice. You can start the party when the network tells you to and spend 3 hours wathcing a 100 minute football game, or you and your friends can eat, drink, and be merry until 80 minutes after the game has started at the stadium and spend 105 minutes watching the 100 minute game without interruptions by timeouts, commercials and half time shows, winding up watching the final huddle at almost exactly the same moment as you would otherwise have done. 'Same game, same outcome, same ending time (give or take a few minutes), but an hour and a half more party in the same amount of time, and a much more intense football experience. It's up to you which you choose, but you have yet to explain how the 3 hour game is better.



Adam1115 said:


> Oh wait, a playoff party is not a waste of time to me, only to you. To ME it ISN'T a waste of time.


I never said it was. In fact, I specifcally said on several ocasions it was up to you to decide what you want to do with your time. In fact, my specific original statement was:


> Actually, personally I consider watching sports at all a complete waste of time, but you are free to watch whatever you like and it's not up to me to judge its worth to you. (Emphasis added)


Which means I am pointedly not offended by your considering watching sports not to be a waste of your time. Why are you offended that I would consider it a waste of my time? I specifically refused to judge you, so quit judging me.

If you *LIKE* watching commercials, then by all means do so, but can you honestly sit there and tell me you like watching commercials and in fact prefer watching them? How often do you switch away from a program in progress just so you can find a comercial to watch?



Adam1115 said:


> ROUND 2 of ridiculous assumptions. Of course I don't schedule my shows every night.


It's not an assumption, at all. There are three logical possibilities:

1. The user shedules his programs in greater than 24 hour increments, possibly up to 14 days using the schedule (guide or otherwise), or an unlimited amount of time for selection criteria which are not bound to the schedule. This requires the user to either enter his input every N days or else risk failing to record programs he may wish to watch. N cannot be greater than 14 for schedule bound events.

2. The user schedules his programs in one day increments. Actually bcwaller said "That night", which limits it to something like 8 or 10 hours, not one day, so even if I were prone to making assumptions, this statement clearly limits the scope of his guide bound searching to less than one day, no assumptions involved. Nonetheless, this specifically requires the user either scan the schedule every day or else risk failing to record programs he may wish to watch.

3. The user fails to cover the entire spectrum of available programs and runs the risk of missing a show he might like to watch.

Using the guide, options 1 and 2 will take effectively the same amount of time. Option 3 will take less time, but results in a lower quality and lower volume of recorded material. Using the other means of selecting recordings, the viewer needn't overly concern himself with option 3, as it is a moot point unless the viewer forgets to do anything for more than 2 weeks. Option 2 will take considerably less time than using the guide, but option 1 takes vastly less still, so there is no reason to really even consider option 2.

WRT your assertion that I assumed anything, I have been very careful to qualify every conclusion concerning the recordings with statements including both the amount of time spent obtaining them, the volume of shows recorded, and the quality of those shows. Every recording option is a compromise between those three parameters. 'No assumptions.

And yes, I do judge a method of recording which simultaneously increasess the quality and quantity of shows recorded while reducing the time and effort required tro record them to be superior. I don't judge the person who fails to choose the method one way or another. Just for the record, however, what other criteria do you apply to the decision which is more important than increasing the quality and quantity of shows recorded while minimizing the amount of time and effort to do it?



Adam1115 said:


> Once in awhile, usually when new season premiers are coming out I go to my favorites (which are only locals) and see what's coming on. That's twice a YEAR. Apparently I don't waste as much time watching TV as you. 10 minutes? More like 10 seconds, it's all on one screen.


If you mean filtering by favorites in the guide, then I call "Bull shyte!" It takes more than 5 minutes just to skim over a week's worth of the guide without trying to read all the programs. Actually reading to see what's on takes much more time than that. If you mean something else, then I need to ask you to elucidate.



Adam1115 said:


> You might if I had no clue what I was talking about and just assumed you were overweight and out of shape...


Anyone who does have a clue should know that the vast majority of Americans are overweight and out of shape. Of course, I might not be an American, but the fact I have TiVos makes it extremely likely. Either way, the fact it is clear from my posts I watch a significant amount of TV makes the assumption an exceedingly safe one.



Adam1115 said:


> I can see how that's challenging for you, if you assume the people are just doing it wrong and talk down to them without trying to understand WHY they do it the way they do.


Why would I do such a thing? It's none of my business, just as it's none of your business why I do what I do. Prying into your reasons for doing what you do is nothing short of rude. It's certainly inappropriate. What's more, it's irrelevant. Just because someone has a reason, obscure or otherwise and justified or otherwise, for taking the long route doesn't make the long route any shorter. More to the point, you have yet to demonstrate in what way your long route is better. I never used the word "wrong", but why one does something has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is more or less effective or efficient than an alternate method.



Adam1115 said:


> I, on the other hand am in a similar situation, but I understand that there is more than one way to do something and that everyone works a little bit differently.


Again, that's irrelevant. The fact someone wants to, needs to, has to, is unable otherwise, can't afford otherwise, or just plain can't understand otherwise in no way makes the result any different. If the result is acceptable to you, then fine, but don't try to argue measuring the result has anything to do with personal preferences.



Adam1115 said:


> Making everyone do everything the same way I do just because I think it's right and talking to them like they're stupid if they don't listen is just going to make people think I'm an a-hole.


John Henry may have been something of a hero figure, but the fact is his stubbornness to accept there could be a better way lost him the race and cost him his life. Was he stupid? I think probably not. Was he foolish? I would say so, but maybe not. Perhaps the issue was more important than his own life, or perhaps he just underestimated his opponent. Was his way less eficient and effective? Without question. You have yet to show how your methods are more effective or more efficient.



Adam1115 said:


> That kind of attitude will weed out productive and creative people, you'll be left with people that mindlessly follow your 'process' without any common sense.


Failure to think about what one is doing, carefully and objectively weigh the consequences of one's actions, and abandon any artifact without regard to what one "likes" is the epitome of mindlessness and a lack of common sense. The bottom line, which you fail to address agan and again is that a the end of your life, you will have spent more than 3 years watching commercials. If that's *really* how you want to spend 5% of youir life, then go for it. If not, then all your arguments about why you do it and how you want to do it differently are nothing but hot air.



Adam1115 said:


> Ever heard of the expression ''There's more than one way to skin a cat'.'?


Generally, the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way. Cliches prove nothing. If one way takes twice as long and results in a poorly skinned cat, don't expect me to applaud the method. The fact there may be more than one way to do something in no way suggests there isn't a single most efficient and effective way. That someone might have strong personal reasons for electing a different way in no way makes it more effective or efficient.

Oh, and just for the record, I have never once said anyone woud be advised to do it my way. I have at most only advised they do it the most effective and efficient way, producing a superior result for less expenditure of time and effort. Provide even the tiniest proof there's a better way and I will abandon the methods I use in a heartbeat. Indeed, I have done so many times. Do you think I developed the methods I suggest the second I opened the TiVo? Do you think I developed every one of the methods myself? I put together these methods over a period of 8 years and modified them instantly whenever I discovered a better way myself, was given a tip on a better way, or the TiVo software was upgraded with a new feature.

Oh, one other thing. Before passing judgement on a method, I actually bothered to try it out, and not for just 30 seconds, either. I gave each new idea a fair trial over a reasonable period of time (usually a few weeks) before assessing it as objectively as I could and deciding to adopt, modify, or abandon the method. How much time have you given to trying even one of my suggestions?



Adam1115 said:


> WOW, this made me laugh out loud. I really didn't think watching the game with my buddies was such a serious life dilemma. Are you kidding me?


No but I'll insist you take the time to actually read what I write. To wit, my statement was the exact opposite of the statement you rebutted:


> You are *not* faced with any such a serious dilemma... (Emphasis added)





Adam1115 said:


> Do you see your pattern of assumptions? I do have a series3. You assumed I use my series 3 like you do, but I don't have cablecards.


Well, I must admit I do tend to assume when someone pays between $400 and $900 (if your Tivo is stock) plus activation fees for a box that they actually do want to use it. It seems to me you didn't want a TiVo, though, and certainly not a Series III. You want to watch things live instead of recorded, you dont want to watch anything but local channels, and you don't watch much TV. With the exception of the Ethernet port and OTA HD capability, you've gutted all the important features of your Tivo. You would have saved a lot of money going with something else like Myth TV.

More importantly, since all Tivos use basically the same UI, what does the type of Tivo you own have to do with the most efficient and effective way to implement recording schedules on a Tivo?



Adam1115 said:


> You can get a Series 2 TiVo for free.


I can get a 1TB hard drive for free, too, with the appropriate package deal, just as one must arrange a package deal to get the free TiVo, but even if that were not the case, my statement is still accuate. I said:


> A Terrabyte of storage costs less than a TiVo.


I didn't say it cost less than ANY Tivo, or less than ALL TiVos, or less than a TiVo included in a package deal. Indeed, the ordinary retail cost of a TiVo HD - *which I have* - is less than the ordinary retail cost of a 1TB hard drive.

Is your intent to actually debate the issue or just to try to make me look foolish? You really aren't doing either one, and I fail to see what this nit has to do with the most efficient and effective way to implement recording schedules on a Tivo



Adam1115 said:


> Oh wait, did you *assume* everyone has the same TiVo you do?


I already admitted that I forgot I wasn't in one of the Series III conferences. Why are you assuming I only have one Tivo? I have 1 Series I, 2 Series III, and 1 TiVo HD. What among all my statements makes you think I am assuming everyone has 4 different TiVos of three different types?

More importantly, what does any of this have to do with the most efficient and effective way to implement recording schedules on a Tivo?


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## megazone

Man, lrhorer, you came across as utterly crazy in this thread. I hardly ever use the guide myself, in fact my TiVo usage style is close to yours, but I still think your statements sound crazy. You sound completely OCD about optimizing every nanosecond of your life.

And you know, sometimes the guide IS the best way to check on things. An example of when I use it - SciFi has 'AniMonday', where they show anime on Monday nights. I like anime and record a lot of it. I but SciFi regularly does not tag the shows with Movies/Anime or Interests/Anime, so it doesn't match those ARWLs. And they mix in series, movies, etc, so the titles change. And some of what they show I've seen, and some of it just sucks and I have no need for it. So the fastest way for me to find what is on is to open the guide and go to Monday night on SciFi. None of the other systems on the TiVo will find that for me - except perhaps going into the manual recording by time and channel as that brings up a list of programs. But the guide is fewer clicks and faster. If it is a series I want to record then I'll setup an SP and forget about it until the series is over. And they even play with the times now and then, so a manual SP for time and channel isn't a good option either - let alone all the **** it would record, especially as they bump AniMonday often enough for some other special, miniseries, etc.

I also use the guide as a fast way to scan for new shows now and then. I know for example that I like a lot of the content on The Science Channel and Discovery. Opening the guide (TiVo Style) and scrolling page by page through the coming weeks takes a few seconds, and I can stop and check out any show with a title that grabs me. It is an efficient way to find new content.

The way you use your TiVo is NOT the right way for everyone, and it sounds a little obsessive and crazy, actually.


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## EvilMidniteBombr

lrhorer, for someone that is so damned concerned about wasting time, you sure did waste a lot of it with your posts. Why are you so concerned about someones suggestion about a feature that you have publicly stated that you never use? To me, that is a perfect example of wasted time.

I wish someone would figure out how much time I wasted reading your isanely long posts and give me that time back so I can look mindlessly through my TiVo guide. 

As for the original post, I would love to be able to look at the guide without having to switch to live tv.


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## Mr. E

What's funny about this is I knew it would devolve into a flame war, but as a new TiVo HD owner (longtime ReplayTV and SA8300HD user), lrhorer's suggestions were actually quite good for getting me to think more "TiVo-like", for lack of a better word. I found a lot of value in that.

I wonder if lrhorer has ever considered setting up a "n00b" guide to TiVo-think? That would be very useful to people who are interested in maximizing their TiVo's potential.


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## poppagene

you can see the guide while watching a recorded show on the hr20


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## tluxon

Not only the guide, but any TiVo menu as well.

I love virtually all sports, but I only have a couple hours a night to watch anywhere up to 8-10 hours of programming I might record each day, so I spend a lot of time fast-forwarding and browsing the other events in the NPL. It really is a huge hassle to be popped out of the show I have playing everytime I want to look at the guide or the NPL or set up recordings for the next day. I haven't found any combination of search filters to automatically prioritize what I want to see on a day-to-day basis, so using the guide and setting up manual recordings has been my best option (any idea how many hours of Sportscenter are on each day???).

One thing I definitely agree with Irhorer on is that using the guide on a TiVo is very cumbersome. I can see why many would find it *so *cumbersome that they find every workaround possible to not have to use it.

That being said, I haven't been able to find any other means with which to locate all the sports and other programming I try to keep up with that works better than the guide. My priorities shift on a day-to-day and case-by-case basis. The TDL can't easily show me all the programs that Wishlists and Season Passes with variable priority settings would result in, and making changes to any of those priorities requires a time-consuming regeneration of the TDL. In practice, I have found that manipulating Wishlists, Season Passes, and the TDL is most often even more cumbersome for me than using the guide!

Of course, if I had 6 or 8 TiVoHD's it would be a mute point, but then I'd be complaining about how much it cost to set up and how much time I'm spending trying to the shows I want to scan through.

But back on the original topic, please TiVo, let me continue watching my recorded show in a corner of the screen when I hit the guide button. I can always hit pause before doing so if I care that much about missing something.


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## bgtees

Is lrhorer back on his medication? Fingers worn out from all that typing? What's up with the lack of crazy-ass responses?


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## DJHall

I'd like to see this feature implemented as well. Not because I am too stupid or archaic to use my TiVo properly, but because I am too cheap to buy a TiVo for the kids room and I like to keep an eye on what they might be watching in their room. A quick check of the guide now and then tells me what programs are on that they really like but aren't allowed to watch and then I know if I should make an unanounced visit to their room to check.


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## EvilMidniteBombr

As of the 9.4 update on the Series 3 & TiVoHD units, you can view the guide while watching recorded video.


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