# Win 10 Pro to include WMC



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Just saw this article linked over at the AVS Forums:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Wind...veral-New-Versions-Leak-Suggests-475967.shtml

It's hard to see, but if you click on the magnifying glass to see the complete image you'll notice the ProfessionalWMC version listed at the bottom of the screen.

I'm not sure if WMC is only available in a specific edition of Win 10 Pro or whether it will be available as an add-on like Windows 8/8.1. In any case, this is the first definitive news about WMC being available in Windows 10. However, it will likely be unchanged from any previous version available in either Win 7 or 8/8.1 Pro.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

I'm running Win 10 Pro Technical Preview and... yup, Windows Media Player is here and running. I installed and use VLC, but WMP is here too.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

justen_m said:


> I'm running Win 10 Pro Technical Preview and... yup, Windows Media Player is here and running. I installed and use VLC, but WMP is here too.


Windows Media CENTER is what the OP was referring to, not Windows Media Player.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Yes - in Win 8.1 Pro you have to pay $9.95 to get WMC


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Be nice because win10 is free. But I wouldn't have wanted to update my WMC box when I had it and risk having new problems


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

stevel said:


> Yes - in Win 8.1 Pro you have to pay $9.95 to get WMC


In the beginning of the release of Windows 8 WMC was a free upgrade, for about 6 months or so, I know because I got it free.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I'm building a new Win8.1 Pro system (Intel NUC) for my mother (who uses an HD Homerun Prime) and last night tried to buy the WMC add-on. I say tried because twice it told me the payment didn't go through even though my credit card was charged both times. I will try a different way tonight....


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

stevel said:


> Yes - in Win 8.1 Pro you have to pay $9.95 to get WMC


Not if you were able to get the free keys offered by Microsoft. I've still got at least one that I can use if I ever feel the need. Since I'm still using WMC with Windows 7 it's a moot point.

The main reason I posted the link is because this means that all legacy WMC users will still be able to get guide data for as long as Microsoft continues to make WMC available for any future OS releases. I'm still using it with Windows 7 and see no reason to change to either Windows 8/8.1 or 10 just to keep using the same application. Windows 8 actually broke several features that are now only available in Windows 7 or Vista with WMC.



stevel said:


> I'm building a new Win8.1 Pro system (Intel NUC) for my mother (who uses an HD Homerun Prime) and last night tried to buy the WMC add-on. I say tried because twice it told me the payment didn't go through even though my credit card was charged both times. I will try a different way tonight....


I'm running three NUCs with Windows 7 and a HDHR Prime and they all work great. I opted for the NUCs for the greater flexibility since I can also use them with XBMC/Kodi for streaming movies and videos from my media server.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Not if you were able to get the free keys offered by Microsoft. I've still got at least one that I can use if I ever feel the need. Since I'm still using WMC with Windows 7 it's a moot point.


If you ever decide you don't need the extra key, feel free to let me know.  Missed out on that . . . .


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

I think those keys were supposed to expire. I don't know as I have a key but the only Windows 8 thing I have is a HP stream tablet,

Anyhow, it's great news - the AVS Forums were abuzz on what to replace WMC with come Windows 10 - rumors were that WMC was discontinued and people were wondering what the future of their Windows 7 WMC HTPCs were. They were hunting of various replacements.

As much as I would kill to use my TiVo, I have to use WMC because TiVo doesn't work with my cable system anymore (we have to use their crappy Motorola boxes). WMC allows me to "use" their box but at least have something that works.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Worf said:


> I think those keys were supposed to expire. I don't know as I have a key but the only Windows 8 thing I have is a HP stream tablet,


I bought a copy of Windows 8 Pro for $40 the day it was released. I got a bunch of keys for WMC using various e-mail addresses. All you had to do was send an e-mail requesting a key and they'd send it to you, but they would only send one key per e-mail address. I think I ended up with about five keys, but I currently can only find one of them.

I installed Windows 8 on a PC a few months ago and used one of the free keys I acquired back in November of 2012 and it worked just fine.


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## Keen (Aug 3, 2009)

Worf said:


> I think those keys were supposed to expire. I don't know as I have a key but the only Windows 8 thing I have is a HP stream tablet,


Yeah, they had an expiration date on them, but it turns out they didn't actually expire. Kind of a pain in my butt, since I upgraded to use the key before it expired.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Keen said:


> Yeah, they had an expiration date on them, but it turns out they didn't actually expire. Kind of a pain in my butt, since I upgraded to use the key before it expired.


If you have to re-install say Windows 8 retail on the same computer the original Windows key will still work so I expect the original WMC key would also work.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

lessd said:


> If you have to re-install say Windows 8 retail on the same computer the original Windows key will still work so I expect the original WMC key would also work.


It will require a call to MS to get a new confirm key, I just went through this last month, there's apparently no longer a "time out" where the keys are available to just reinstall with like there used to be, I was 18 months in from my last install and I lost my system, rebuilt on the same hardware and had to call MS to let me use those 2 keys (Win8.x and WMC)

I'd also not make the assumption that WMC will be in Win10 just because it's in the previews, as others have said it was in the Win8 previews also and then didn't make it into the release without you needing to purchase it (or get a free pre-purchase copy)


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I never understood Microsoft's approach to somewhat abandoning WMC--it seemed like a good selling point to me (the all-in-one PC).


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dianebrat said:


> It will require a call to MS to get a new confirm key, I just went through this last month, there's apparently no longer a "time out" where the keys are available to just reinstall with like there used to be, I was 18 months in from my last install and I lost my system, rebuilt on the same hardware and had to call MS to let me use those 2 keys (Win8.x and WMC)


About two weeks ago I had to rebuild my Windows 7 system, no problem using both the original key for Windows 7 and the original key for MS office, on the exact same hardware. I guess Win 8 could be different as I have not had to rebuild my windows 8 system.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> If you have to re-install say Windows 8 retail on the same computer the original Windows key will still work so I expect the original WMC key would also work.


I installed it on a different computer and had no problems. Microsoft tends to put a limit on the number of times you can activate Windows before you have to use the dial-in activation. Even that has a limit and will no longer work after a while. I had to resort to using bootleg copies of Windows 7 on several PCs because I could no longer get my legitimate copies to activate after reinstalling them multiple times.

I've never had any issues activating Microsoft Office on multiple PCs or multiple installations on the same PC. The activation process for MS Office doesn't appear to be as anal as it is with the OS.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

one time I upgraded my bios and my windows got deactivated. I had to call Microsoft on the phone to fix it. they said I had it running on 6 computers. since my computer was my dvr and cable box if I didn't fix it fast I would have no cable tv. I have a TiVo now so I can play games faster on my pc



mr.unnatural said:


> I installed it on a different computer and had no problems. Microsoft tends to put a limit on the number of times you can activate Windows before you have to use the dial-in activation. Even that has a limit and will no longer work after a while. I had to resort to using bootleg copies of Windows 7 on several PCs because I could no longer get my legitimate copies to activate after reinstalling them multiple times.
> 
> I've never had any issues activating Microsoft Office on multiple PCs or multiple installations on the same PC. The activation process for MS Office doesn't appear to be as anal as it is with the OS.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

That must have been a pretty severe upgrade to cause problems like that with your Windows installation. If Windows detects any major hardware changes it may or may not require you to reactivate Windows based on the priority of the change. Motherboards and CPUs are the No. 1 hardware change that can cause this to occur. Here's an interesting article that explains how Windows makes this determination:

http://searchitchannel.techtarget.com/feature/How-Windows-7-hardware-upgrades-affect-licensing

One thing the article points out is that you should always use hardware on the Windows Hardware Compatibility List (HCL). I always suspected that people reporting problems using WMC were using hardware and/or software that had compatibility issues, but I had totally forgotten about the HCL. That would certainly explain why some people have issues with WMC while others, like myself, never seem to have any problems.

In my case I probably just got lucky with my hardware choices since I never checked the HCL to see if my component selections would work. OTOH, I think that most current hardware is less likely to have issues than hardware that came out when Vista and Windows 7 were released.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Just saw this article linked over at the AVS Forums:
> 
> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Wind...veral-New-Versions-Leak-Suggests-475967.shtml
> 
> ...


They kind of had to, since they want to upgrade as many users from Windows 7 and 8 as possible. That being said, it will be unchanged, so it's still going to be kind of a mess.


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## WPe (May 5, 2007)

Mikeguy said:


> I never understood Microsoft's approach to somewhat abandoning WMC--it seemed like a good selling point to me (the all-in-one PC).


Reason is that Microsoft has to pay licensing fees on every copy of Windows when only a tiny percentage of people actually use that program. Supposedly, the development team has long been disbanded. So, the chances of WMC ever improving is almost nil. Those in-the-know do not believe WMC will even be part of any final version of Windows 10. I guess I am in the camp of hopeful but expecting the worse.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

WPe said:


> Reason is that Microsoft has to pay licensing fees on every copy of Windows when only a tiny percentage of people actually use that program.


And so, as a good, cost-effective marketing option, Microsoft could make it available for separate download, figuring that only that smaller percentage that really wants it will in fact download it. It just always seemed to me that it is a good marketing and feature option.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

WPe said:


> Reason is that Microsoft has to pay licensing fees on every copy of Windows when only a tiny percentage of people actually use that program. Supposedly, the development team has long been disbanded. So, the chances of WMC ever improving is almost nil. Those in-the-know do not believe WMC will even be part of any final version of Windows 10. I guess I am in the camp of hopeful but expecting the worse.


I don't think they will add support for CableCard's successor, so post-CableCard, it will very likely be left for OTA-only.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> I don't think they will add support for CableCard's successor, so post-CableCard, it will very likely be left for OTA-only.


This shouldn't be an issue unless your provider changes their delivery system to something that renders your cablecards useless. Cable providers aren't in the habit of wholesale replacements of existing hardware unless there's an overall change in the industry. In other words, if you currently use a cablecard tuner with WMC then chances are you're going to be fine over the long haul.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> This shouldn't be an issue unless your provider changes their delivery system to something that renders your cablecards useless. Cable providers aren't in the habit of wholesale replacements of existing hardware unless there's an overall change in the industry. In other words, if you currently use a cablecard tuner with WMC then chances are you're going to be fine over the long haul.


CableCard is eventually going away, for consumer devices way before for their own hardware. I am not 100% sure, but devices like X1 may be able to be used by the MSOs without CableCards post separable-security mandate. I believe it's already dead for MSO-owned hardware.


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## WPe (May 5, 2007)

Mikeguy said:


> And so, as a good, cost-effective marketing option, Microsoft could make it available for separate download, figuring that only that smaller percentage that really wants it will in fact download it. It just always seemed to me that it is a good marketing and feature option.


That is what they did in Windows 8: make it an option.

For Windows 10, we shall see. However in a recent build of 10: if you tried to upgrade from a system that already had WMC, the setup would display a warning message saying WMC would no longer work if you performed the upgrade.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

WPe said:


> That is what they did in Windows 8: make it an option.
> 
> For Windows 10, we shall see. However in a recent build of 10: if you tried to upgrade from a system that already had WMC, the setup would display a warning message saying WMC would no longer work if you performed the upgrade.


That was only true for the evaluation version (or whatever they call it) of W10. According to the link I posted, WMC will be available with the released version of Windows 10. It is not unusual for features to be left out of beta or pre-release versions of Windows. According to the article, it looks like WMC will be embedded in a specific version of W10, but that doesn't necessarily mean it won't be available for download as an add-on.



Bigg said:


> CableCard is eventually going away, for consumer devices way before for their own hardware. I am not 100% sure, but devices like X1 may be able to be used by the MSOs without CableCards post separable-security mandate. I believe it's already dead for MSO-owned hardware.


This true, but unless they make cablecards incompatible with the existing infrastructure or delivery method, any cablecards in the wild will likely still be in use for quite some time. I can see them phasing out cablecards over time, but providers are very hesitant about doing a wholesale swapout of existing hardware if they don't have to. The cost would be astronomical and doing anything of that magnitude would create a huge hit on their bottom line. The worst part is that the end user will end up taking the brunt of the cost.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

WPe said:


> That is what they did in Windows 8: make it an option.


But only for the Pro version, right?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> But only for the Pro version, right?


and only for some versions, I have access to a variety of install media, (yes all legal) and I found out the hard way you can't do a Win8.1 Pro VLK install and add WMC to it, it has to be one of the single key "consumer" versions.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I've always thought the Pro/standard distinction curious with respect to the possibility of adding WMC--I would have thought that Microsoft would think/see that the large consumer base with the standard Windows 8.1 version would be the group more (or at least significantly) wishing to add WMC.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> But only for the Pro version, right?


That is correct. It's just another reason why I will probably never use Windows 8/8.1 in a HTPC. I bought a copy of Win 8 Pro the day it was released for $40 and got a free key for WMC when they were being offered. I installed Win 8 on a spare PC, took one look at it and said "WTF?" I've barely used it since.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> This true, but unless they make cablecards incompatible with the existing infrastructure or delivery method, any cablecards in the wild will likely still be in use for quite some time. I can see them phasing out cablecards over time, but providers are very hesitant about doing a wholesale swapout of existing hardware if they don't have to. The cost would be astronomical and doing anything of that magnitude would create a huge hit on their bottom line. The worst part is that the end user will end up taking the brunt of the cost.


Anything a large MSO does takes years. However, I am envisioning them abandoning CableCards in place if their boxes can support integrated security too, and then offering third party access via the new standards, and thus abandoning CableCard. But maybe that will take a decade or more...

Also, they may just cut off retail CableCards when the new standard is in place, and they are allowed to by law, but continue supporting them on their own hardware...


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> That is correct. It's just another reason why I will probably never use Windows 8/8.1 in a HTPC. I bought a copy of Win 8 Pro the day it was released for $40 and got a free key for WMC when they were being offered. I installed Win 8 on a spare PC, took one look at it and said "WTF?" I've barely used it since.


That's too bad, you're missing a fantastically improved operating system, it's Win7 on steroids, all you need to do is spend $5 on Start8 and it's the best of both worlds, I've never looked back and prefer it to my work Win7 laptop.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I set up my mom with a Win8.1 system and WMC (replacing a Win7/WMC system from 2009). (I also installed Start8 which I adore.) The major pain was that since she had, unintentionally, wiped her old system, I had to reconstruct a lot of her programs. (Luckily all her personal files were backed up with Carbonite. The new system (an Intel NUC) has a second disk doing a full system backup weekly plus Carbonite.)

Win10 I really like - I have it running on my own NUC. WMC is pretty good, though I admit I don't have a lot of experience with it or other similar HTPC software. My mom likes it (she uses it with a HDHomerun Prime)


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dianebrat said:


> That's too bad, you're missing a fantastically improved operating system, it's Win7 on steroids, all you need to do is spend $5 on Start8 and it's the best of both worlds, I've never looked back and prefer it to my work Win7 laptop.


I have used that for my wife and other friends Windows 8 computers, *Start8 *works great for $5 and you can (if you want) keep people like my wife from getting into the right hand Win 8 menu system.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

And if you want to save the $5, freeware Classic Start Menu is well-behaved, flexible and works very well.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> And if you want to save the $5, freeware Classic Start Menu is well-behaved, flexible and works very well.


*shrug* for a heavy use system I far prefer Start8 to any of the alternatives, Classic Shell is fine for an occasional use but if you're trying to sway a Win7 diehard I wouldn't recommend a mediocre replacement, I'd recommend the best option.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> That's too bad, you're missing a fantastically improved operating system, it's Win7 on steroids, all you need to do is spend $5 on Start8 and it's the best of both worlds, I've never looked back and prefer it to my work Win7 laptop.


With respect to using WMC, Windows 8 actually broke a few features, like incompatibility with existing media extenders.. As for desktop use, it is completely unintuitive for long time Windows users. A new Windows OS shouldn't require this much of a learning curve before you feel comfortable using it. Whatever improvements Microsoft may have made are irrelevant if you can't figure out how to find or use them. The Windows 8 UI is completely alien to me.

As for desktop use, I don't do a lot of heavy duty processing and basically use it for occasional video editing, web surfing, and checking my e-mail. I won't see any benefit from an improved operating system for the things I do, which is why I'm perfectly fine with Windows 7 for the long haul. Heck, I'd probably still be using XP if it wasn't for the release of the Ceton cablecard tuners and WMC.

Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with respect to business customers. No large company can afford the time to retrain their employees on the use of Windows 8 if they currently use an older version. My company finally made the transition to Windows 7 in the past 12 months and I can't see them embracing Windows 8 any time soon, if ever. Our IT department has been overwhelmed with questions and issues with Windows 7 as it is. Windows 8 would be a total nightmare.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> With respect to using WMC, Windows 8 actually broke a few features, like incompatibility with existing media extenders.. As for desktop use, it is completely unintuitive for long time Windows users. A new Windows OS shouldn't require this much of a learning curve before you feel comfortable using it. Whatever improvements Microsoft may have made are irrelevant if you can't figure out how to find or use them. The Windows 8 UI is completely alien to me.
> 
> As for desktop use, I don't do a lot of heavy duty processing and basically use it for occasional video editing, web surfing, and checking my e-mail. I won't see any benefit from an improved operating system for the things I do, which is why I'm perfectly fine with Windows 7 for the long haul. Heck, I'd probably still be using XP if it wasn't for the release of the Ceton cablecard tuners and WMC.
> 
> Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with respect to business customers. No large company can afford the time to retrain their employees on the use of Windows 8 if they currently use an older version. My company finally made the transition to Windows 7 in the past 12 months and I can't see them embracing Windows 8 any time soon, if ever. Our IT department has been overwhelmed with questions and issues with Windows 7 as it is. Windows 8 would be a total nightmare.


:up:


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> With respect to using WMC, Windows 8 actually broke a few features, like incompatibility with existing media extenders.. As for desktop use, it is completely unintuitive for long time Windows users. A new Windows OS shouldn't require this much of a learning curve before you feel comfortable using it. Whatever improvements Microsoft may have made are irrelevant if you can't figure out how to find or use them. The Windows 8 UI is completely alien to me.


The default interface is completely nonsensical, but it's easy to put ClassicShell on it. I did that for my dad, who is terrible with computers, and he uses it just fine.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I think I had heard about ClassicShell, but I'm not sure about Start8 so I googled them both and ran across this article:

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/stardock_start8_vs_classic_shell2013#null

Looking at the two I'd probably want to give Start8 a try. At $5 it would be worth it to actually make Windows 8 more user friendly and familiar. You'd think Microsoft would have enough sense to offer something like this rather than throw a completely new layout in our faces and expect everyone to love it. That's the problem with the computer nerds in Redmond. They design software the way they'd like to see it rather than what the public actually wants.

I put together a PC for my Mom to replace her aging PC with XP a few years back using parts I had laying around. I actually kept XP on it since that's what she was familiar with. My sister decided, in her ultimate wisdom, that Mom needed a new PC so she went out and bought her one with Windows 8 without consulting me first. As you would expect, my Mom stopped using the PC because she had no clue what she was looking at. I was having enough trouble getting her used to XP and I knew that Win 8 would turn her completely off.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

dianebrat said:


> *shrug* for a heavy use system I far prefer Start8 to any of the alternatives, Classic Shell is fine for an occasional use but if you're trying to sway a Win7 diehard I wouldn't recommend a mediocre replacement, I'd recommend the best option.


Different options for different people, although most very similar. When I originally was looking for a Start Menu option (as, indeed, a heavy user), I compared the various programs and liked the great customizability possible with Classic Start Menu, often not present in the others, to that degree. And it is extremely well-behaved, and far from mediocre (unless one considers all of these programs as mediocre), in my experience--it's the "old" Start Menu back, what one wants. In point of fact, I find most of the Start Menu alternatives to be more similar than not (which, in fact, the review linked to above itself notes).


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Start8 is free for a 30 day trial.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I think I had heard about ClassicShell, but I'm not sure about Start8 so I googled them both and ran across this article:
> 
> http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/stardock_start8_vs_classic_shell2013#null
> 
> Looking at the two I'd probably want to give Start8 a try. At $5 it would be worth it to actually make Windows 8 more user friendly and familiar.


I'm sure Start8 is fine too, in my case, I was looking for something free, and ClassicShell did the trick for nothing. He was used to XP, so ClassicShell on 8 make it close enough that he can figure out how to use it to go online, which basically the only thing he does on his personal computer.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Right now I own/support 4 personal/family computers. One XP, One Win 7, One Win 8.1, & One Win 10. I used classic shell when I first installed Win 8 (upgraded a Win XP computer) but have since installed an SSD and moved to Win 8.1 on that machine without classic shell. 

I used to work in computer administration and from my admin point of view I didn't like, Win 8 to much of a learning curve on how to do administrative tasks. Win 8.1 is not much different but I have learned stuff so it feels easier. At this point Win 10 seems better but it maybe because I have been using Win 8/8.1 for so long now. 

Also from an admin point of view if a non admin user can not figure out how to open a program and tweak a limited set of user settings in Win 8.1 (which is all they should be doing) their company should take the computer away from them. 

If a company hasn't moved to Win 8.1 there is no reason to ever do so. At this point Win 7 is excellent for business use and the next move should be to Win 10.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> Right now I own/support 4 personal/family computers. One XP, One Win 7, One Win 8.1, & One Win 10. I used classic shell when I first installed Win 8 (upgraded a Win XP computer) but have since installed an SSD and moved to Win 8.1 on that machine without classic shell.
> 
> I used to work in computer administration and from my admin point of view I didn't like, Win 8 to much of a learning curve on how to do administrative tasks. Win 8.1 is not much different but I have learned stuff so it feels easier. At this point Win 10 seems better but it maybe because I have been using Win 8/8.1 for so long now.
> 
> ...


Looking at Win 8/8.1 with no prior knowledge of how to use it creates mass confusion to a user familiar with previous Windows versions. There is nothing intuitive about using it whatsoever. It takes a considerable amount of time and training to get used to where everything is and how to access it and many of us simply don't have the time or inclination to do so. I keep telling myself that I should take some time and learn it, but I just can't get myself motivated, especially when I'm perfectly content using Windows 7. I don't like being forced into using something that just puts me off.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Win 8/8.1 is a much improved OS vs. previous versions. It's just that the user shouldn't have to learn how to use it from scratch. It's enough to make you want to switch to using a Mac.  Windows users have always been able to transition from previous versions and hit the ground running as soon as they boot up because everything is, for the most part, where you expect it to be. There are always new things to learn, but the learning curve has always been a gentle slope rather than a steep one. Win 8/8.1 is such a radical departure from previous versions that it can actually be intimidating and frustrating if you don't know how it's structured. That's just poor marketing strategy. IMHO. Your customers should feel comfortable with your product right out of the box, not frustrated or angry.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The biggest problem with Win 8 (a bit less with 8.1) is its unfriendliness to non-touchscreen users. Start8 (I have not used Classic Shell but I assume it is similar) allows the user to avoid the "Windows Store" interface that takes over the entire screen and leaves no visible clues as to how to get out of it. Win 10 is much better in that it lets non-touchscreen users pretty much stay out of the touch-oriented environment unless they explicitly go there.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Looking at Win 8/8.1 with no prior knowledge of how to use it creates mass confusion to a user familiar with previous Windows versions. There is nothing intuitive about using it whatsoever. It takes a considerable amount of time and training to get used to where everything is and how to access it and many of us simply don't have the time or inclination to do so. I keep telling myself that I should take some time and learn it, but I just can't get myself motivated, especially when I'm perfectly content using Windows 7. I don't like being forced into using something that just puts me off.
> 
> I have no doubt whatsoever that Win 8/8.1 is a much improved OS vs. previous versions. It's just that the user shouldn't have to learn how to use it from scratch. It's enough to make you want to switch to using a Mac.  Windows users have always been able to transition from previous versions and hit the ground running as soon as they boot up because everything is, for the most part, where you expect it to be. There are always new things to learn, but the learning curve has always been a gentle slope rather than a steep one. Win 8/8.1 is such a radical departure from previous versions that it can actually be intimidating and frustrating if you don't know how it's structured. That's just poor marketing strategy. IMHO. Your customers should feel comfortable with your product right out of the box, not frustrated or angry.


I tend to agree with you. However in a business setting, proper setup of Win 8.1 by admin removes many issues (booting to desktop unless they are using a touch screen laptop, core work programs setup properly, etc.) - still some explanation required but not much and certainly not as bad as Win 8 for non touch screen users.

In my family my sister who is smart but not a computer person in anyway liked Win 8 on her personal laptop from the start (Win 7 at work) but of course I added printers, installed some programs, setup wifi, etc. and showed her the basics.


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## Keen (Aug 3, 2009)

Man, I know it's popular to bash Windows 8, but I was totally fine with it after a couple of hours. The new Start screen behaves just like my most common interactions with the old Start menu, so I just had to get used to the new layout.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Keen said:


> Man, I know it's popular to bash Windows 8, but I was totally fine with it after a couple of hours. The new Start screen behaves just like my most common interactions with the old Start menu, so I just had to get used to the new layout.


OK your one of many who likes Windows 8, my wife is one of many who hated Windows 8, so I solved the problem with Start 8 for $5, this is the lowest cost I have ever paid to keep the wife happy.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

And coulda done it for free with Classic Start Menu.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

lessd said:


> OK your one of many who likes Windows 8, my wife is one of many who hated Windows 8, so I solved the problem with Start 8 for $5, this is the lowest cost I have ever paid to keep the wife happy.


Start8 made me a happy enough camper that I'm more than willing to recommend Win8 after using it, Classic Shell was not as impressive.

I'm a power desktop user and the strength of Win8 with Start8 makes it one of the best OS's I've used, even stronger than Win7, but the Start menu is one of those power user things that casual users don't seem to understand. I've used the official Win8 Start Screen and for MY usage style it's worthless, it takes up a ton of real estate with no benefits and is not easier to use, a Start menu works perfectly for me.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> And coulda done it for free with Classic Start Menu.


I think for most people there is little difference between free and $5, one cup of coffee , and Start 8 has been upgraded (for free) a few times after my $5 purchase. How much would you donate for free software.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> I think for most people there is little difference between free and $5, one cup of coffee , and Start 8 has been upgraded (for free) a few times after my $5 purchase. How much would you donate for free software.


Absolutely. When the cost of any software is in the single digits I have no problems paying for it. I've spent far more for software I hardly use.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

lessd said:


> I think for most people there is little difference between free and $5, one cup of coffee , and Start 8 has been upgraded (for free) a few times after my $5 purchase. How much would you donate for free software.


And at $5 per computer and laptop in a many-machine household, it's a nice dinner out; and some might even prefer the enhanced customizability of the freeware.

There's also a spirit and history involved for software like Classic Shell, for some. Kinda like coming to a place like TiVo Community as vs. a paysite.

But, to each their own. And with many options, something which the freeware/shareware/appware revolution often brings.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> And at $5 per computer and laptop in a many-machine household, it's a nice dinner out; and some might even prefer the enhanced customizability of the freeware.
> 
> There's also a spirit and history involved for software like Classic Shell, for some. Kinda like coming to a place like TiVo Community as vs. a paysite.
> 
> But, to each their own. And with many options, something which the freeware/shareware/appware revolution often brings.


If I had 10 Windows 8 PCs I had to do this on I may look a the free software and see if it would do the job form some of the computers.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

In the end, most of these products are more similar to each other than not, as far as I've seen (and absent some more radical forms).


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## WPe (May 5, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> That was only true for the evaluation version (or whatever they call it) of W10. According to the link I posted, WMC will be available with the released version of Windows 10. It is not unusual for features to be left out of beta or pre-release versions of Windows. According to the article, it looks like WMC will be embedded in a specific version of W10, but that doesn't necessarily mean it won't be available for download as an add-on.


Gabe Aul (Windows 10 Insiders Program Chief) was asked about WMC by Paul Thurrott on Windows Weekly 408. Aul said there was nothing to announce at this time. That frankly is how you act when it is not yet time to give out bad news.

Aul could have thrown a bone to at least give some reason for optimism but chose not to do that at all. Right now, I am leaning toward WMC only appearing as a part of XBOX Live Subscription + tuner on the XBOX One.


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## WPe (May 5, 2007)

Today, Ed Bott is reporting that WMC will not be a part of 10. Not only will WMC not be included, upgrades to 10 will break the application. Hopefully, Bott is wrong, but I doubt it.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

WPe said:


> Today, Ed Bott is reporting that WMC will not be a part of 10. Not only will WMC not be included, upgrades to 10 will break the application. Hopefully, Bott is wrong, but I doubt it.


I am fairly sure that is correct. There is a reason Silicon Dust is releasing a Software DVR solution now.

Edit: No Media Center in Win 10: http://www.engadget.com/2015/05/02/windows-media-center-is-dead/


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

atmuscarella said:


> Edit: No Media Center in Win 10: http://www.engadget.com/2015/05/02/windows-media-center-is-dead/


To be clear, their source is the same as the earlier report, Ed Bott.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

It does appear that WMC is dead and will not be part of Windows 10 as I indicated in my initial post. Here's the article:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/rip-windows-media-center/

The SiliconDust HDHR DVR software is looking more appealing than ever with this announcement. If it's as good as WMC for recording then I'll definitely be making the switch. If they get it working with Kodi I'll probably dump Windows altogether and switch to Linux for HTPC use.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

dianebrat said:


> Start8 made me a happy enough camper that I'm more than willing to recommend Win8 after using it, Classic Shell was not as impressive.
> 
> I'm a power desktop user and the strength of Win8 with Start8 makes it one of the best OS's I've used, even stronger than Win7, but the Start menu is one of those power user things that casual users don't seem to understand. I've used the official Win8 Start Screen and for MY usage style it's worthless, it takes up a ton of real estate with no benefits and is not easier to use, a Start menu works perfectly for me.


I use start 8 on my laptop as well... It really saved the OS for me - with Start8 I love the improvements.

I am testing Windows 10 and omg, you will love this new operating system!


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Yes, Windows 10 is very nice indeed. I use Start8 on my Win8 systems.


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## JBDragon (Jan 4, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> It does appear that WMC is dead and will not be part of Windows 10 as I indicated in my initial post. Here's the article:
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/article/rip-windows-media-center/
> 
> The SiliconDust HDHR DVR software is looking more appealing than ever with this announcement. If it's as good as WMC for recording then I'll definitely be making the switch. If they get it working with Kodi I'll probably dump Windows altogether and switch to Linux for HTPC use.


The problem with this software? it won't work with either my my Duel HD Homerun tuners!!! That means hardware replacement!!! There's also some limitations, like no ROKU support. It's limited how to can watch the content. You'll have to wait for however long for maybe support n ROKU and iOS, etc.
There's some promising things, but I'm not rushing that direction right now.
It is a way for them to sell more of their hardware. Without WMC, it puts a big dent in their sales.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

JBDragon said:


> The problem with this software? it won't work with either my my Duel HD Homerun tuners!!! That means hardware replacement!!! There's also some limitations, like no ROKU support. It's limited how to can watch the content. You'll have to wait for however long for maybe support n ROKU and iOS, etc.
> There's some promising things, but I'm not rushing that direction right now.
> It is a way for them to sell more of their hardware. Without WMC, it puts a big dent in their sales.


If you look at the goals for the HDHR DVR software, they intend to provide Roku support if they hit the $250k stretch goal. Even if they don't make the goal that doesn't mean they won't add it at some later date.

The HDHR hardware had to be upgraded in order to have the functionality incorporated to use the new software. It wasn't something they could have implemented with a firmware update. Tivo's been doing the same thing with their hardware for at least 15 years so I don't see what the argument is. You can find HDHR Connects for as little as $50 on sale so it's not going to break the bank to upgrade them.

FYI, the HDHR tuners will work with just about any other DVR platform besides WMC. With WMC likely to disappear altogether it's in SD's interest to develop a platform that allows people to continue using their hardware.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

There's always Tivo.


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## Jepato (Mar 22, 2015)

trip1eX said:


> There's always Tivo.


The reason why so many have htpcs is it's close to an all in one solution. The missing link for Tivo right now is the ability to play locally stored media files, which is why so many are excited about Plex.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Jepato said:


> The reason why so many have htpcs is it's close to an all in one solution. The missing link for Tivo right now is the ability to play locally stored media files, which is why so many are excited about Plex.


I guess my humor was lost on you.


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## usc-fan (Feb 4, 2015)

So guide I switched to tivo this year!!!!

It only a matter of time before the guide data stops working.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

usc-fan said:


> So guide I switched to tivo this year!!!!
> 
> It only a matter of time before the guide data stops working.


I assume you're referring to guide data in WMC. There have been alternative methods for importing guide data from third party providers, such as Schedules Direct, into WMC for quite some time. I suspect Microsoft will continue to provide guide data for at least a few years, but that's just hopeful speculation. They could pull the plug any time they want with no prior warning.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

usc-fan said:


> So guide I switched to tivo this year!!!!
> 
> It only a matter of time before the guide data stops working.


I switched to tivo this year from Windows Media Center but I still have 1 computer running Windows Media Center with a cable card


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

stevel said:


> Yes, Windows 10 is very nice indeed. I use Start8 on my Win8 systems.


I do the same on my wife's Windows 8.11.
I do have the newest Windows 10 on another drive on my main PC and it takes 3 or more time to boot than my Windows 8, and both are on a SSD, a lot of my programs don't work yet on Windows 10 so I assume there will be Windows 10 upgrades for those programs (Like Fidelity *active trader*)


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## JBDragon (Jan 4, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> If you look at the goals for the HDHR DVR software, they intend to provide Roku support if they hit the $250k stretch goal. Even if they don't make the goal that doesn't mean they won't add it at some later date.
> 
> The HDHR hardware had to be upgraded in order to have the functionality incorporated to use the new software. It wasn't something they could have implemented with a firmware update. Tivo's been doing the same thing with their hardware for at least 15 years so I don't see what the argument is. You can find HDHR Connects for as little as $50 on sale so it's not going to break the bank to upgrade them.
> 
> FYI, the HDHR tuners will work with just about any other DVR platform besides WMC. With WMC likely to disappear altogether it's in SD's interest to develop a platform that allows people to continue using their hardware.


I just don't see Kickstarter being the way to go about Developing Software. I just think it's dumb. If they don't get the ROKU goal, it's a maybe? Having to upgrade tuners, well that's another hardware upgrade cost. Since I have to Upgrade the hardware, well there's a lot of options today. From going TIVO, which I', doing, to maybe a Tablo 2 or 4 tuners Box which already works with a ROKU and can be streamed on mobile devices NOW. Not some future Kickstarter Project which from my past experience so far has been disappointing. #1 being Delay, after Delay, after Delay.


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## JBDragon (Jan 4, 2004)

lessd said:


> I do the same on my wife's Windows 8.11.
> I do have the newest Windows 10 on another drive on my main PC and it takes 3 or more time to boot than my Windows 8, and both are on a SSD, a lot of my programs don't work yet on Windows 10 so I assume there will be Windows 10 upgrades for those programs (Like Fidelity *active trader*)


Well Windows 10 is in Beta, and form what I hear, Windows 10 on your computer may be different from Windows 10 on someone else's as MS is trying a few different versions to see what works best for people. As beta, you don't want to run it on your Primary Computer, let alone a computer with any valuable Data on it or you want to do real work on. You're pretty much just asking for it. As it's Beta, no one else is really supporting it yet. They're working on their own software getting it ready for when Windows 10 is released.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

JBDragon said:


> Well Windows 10 is in Beta, and form what I hear, Windows 10 on your computer may be different from Windows 10 on someone else's as MS is trying a few different versions to see what works best for people. As beta, you don't want to run it on your Primary Computer, let alone a computer with any valuable Data on it or you want to do real work on. You're pretty much just asking for it. As it's Beta, no one else is really supporting it yet. They're working on their own software getting it ready for when Windows 10 is released.


Your correct, I don't use Windows 10 to do anything except see what programs run and does not run, I don't do any real work on that Win 10 drive.


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## ucliker (Sep 25, 2007)

I believe that WMC will be replaced with DVR functionality on the Xbox One. Right now, it is all just rumors. Microsoft released a tv tuner in the UK and Europe already. They plan on releasing one the US shortly.

http://www.xbox.com/en-gb/xbox-one/accessories/digital-tv-tuner#fbid=LtnL1fDlyy8

Even if this all comes true I doubt it will have more than one tuner.

I had an HDHomeRun prime for over a year with WMC running as my DVR. I enjoyed it a lot, but It did miss a few recordings here and there. I used a Xbox 360 as a WMC extender and had to transfer shows (Non-copyrighted) to be converted manually to my NAS for out of the house streaming. I wanted to simplify the process and have access to Netflix and Amazon on one device. I went back to Tivo and couldn't be happier. My only issue is not being able to watch movies from my NAS on the Tivo. I've tried pyTivo and it makes my tivo reboot constantly. Hopefully plex will come soon.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

JBDragon said:


> I just don't see Kickstarter being the way to go about Developing Software. I just think it's dumb. If they don't get the ROKU goal, it's a maybe? Having to upgrade tuners, well that's another hardware upgrade cost. Since I have to Upgrade the hardware, well there's a lot of options today. From going TIVO, which I', doing, to maybe a Tablo 2 or 4 tuners Box which already works with a ROKU and can be streamed on mobile devices NOW. Not some future Kickstarter Project which from my past experience so far has been disappointing. #1 being Delay, after Delay, after Delay.


Kickstarter is nothing more than a method to gather funding and make people aware of the project. The goals are clearly stated if and when that particular financial goal is reached. The basic goal of $100k to develop the DVR software has already been reached so it's definitely happening. The $150k stretch goal has also been reached so development for Kodi is also going to happen.

Hardware upgrades to expand capability are a way of life. Tivo's been doing it from day one and no one's griping so I don't see how this is any different. I already owned a HDHR Prime and I picked up three HDHR Connects prior to the Kickstarter campaign being announced so I'm all set. Now I just need them to come out with a six tuner Prime.

If they don't hit the stretch goal for Roku that means there's no guarantee that it will ever be developed. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it won't happen at some point. If they hit the goal then they're making a promise that it will happen.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> Kickstarter is nothing more than a method to gather funding and make people aware of the project. The goals are clearly stated if and when that particular financial goal is reached. The basic goal of $100k to develop the DVR software has already been reached so it's definitely happening. The $150k stretch goal has also been reached so development for Kodi is also going to happen. Hardware upgrades to expand capability are a way of life. Tivo's been doing it from day one and no one's griping so I don't see how this is any different. I already owned a HDHR Prime and I picked up three HDHR Connects prior to the Kickstarter campaign being announced so I'm all set. Now I just need them to come out with a six tuner Prime. If they don't hit the stretch goal for Roku that means there's no guarantee that it will ever be developed. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it won't happen at some point. If they hit the goal then they're making a promise that it will happen.


Hopefully their promise means more than Ceton's was with the "Android on Echo"!


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

HarperVision said:


> Hopefully their promise means more than Ceton's was with the "Android on Echo"!


The problem with the Echo and Android was that they promised something that they couldn't implement on existing units. Android worked fine on the Echo. The problem was getting older units updated in the field. The method they used ended up bricking a lot of units. Rather than risk damaging units they decided to drop it altogether. I just don't understand why they didn't offer units with Android pre-installed when they discovered the glitch with updating older units.

SiliconDust already has a working product, but it's not completely finished yet. They're mostly fine tuning the functions to flesh it out. There are no problems associated with getting the software distributed as it's just a matter of installing it on the client device. It's really apples and oranges.

For those that have donated, SD is supposed to start beta testing in June with the final release projected to be in September.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> The problem with the Echo and Android was that they promised something that they couldn't implement on existing units. Android worked fine on the Echo. The problem was getting older units updated in the field. The method they used ended up bricking a lot of units. Rather than risk damaging units they decided to drop it altogether. I just don't understand why they didn't offer units with Android pre-installed when they discovered the glitch with updating older units. SiliconDust already has a working product, but it's not completely finished yet. They're mostly fine tuning the functions to flesh it out. There are no problems associated with getting the software distributed as it's just a matter of installing it on the client device. It's really apples and oranges. For those that have donated, SD is supposed to start beta testing in June with the final release projected to be in September.


Yeah, that was kind of tongue in cheek. I understand how it all played out. It's 90% of why I'm back all the way with TiVo. Along with the Roamio release.


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## Jepato (Mar 22, 2015)

The problem with android as far as consumer devices is if you hook them up to large screens, many of the apps don't work well both as far as playback quality and working with typical remote controls. You can see what I mean if you try to use netflix and other apps on many of the cheap standalone android media boxes out there. It's basically like hooking up a tablet or phone to a tv. 

Android can work, but you need to do a lot of work like Amazon has developing an interface and modifying some of the apps to work more smoothly on large tvs. Otherwise, Opera is a better platform for tvs.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Just saw this:

http://www.ismediacenterdeadyet.com/


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Jepato said:


> The problem with android as far as consumer devices is if you hook them up to large screens, many of the apps don't work well both as far as playback quality and working with typical remote controls. You can see what I mean if you try to use netflix and other apps on many of the cheap standalone android media boxes out there. It's basically like hooking up a tablet or phone to a tv.
> 
> Android can work, but you need to do a lot of work like Amazon has developing an interface and modifying some of the apps to work more smoothly on large tvs. Otherwise, Opera is a better platform for tvs.


The unapproved Android mini PCs, Minix, Tronsmart, etc. aren't approved for Netflix, so it will be SD only and the other mainstream streaming services mostly are limited to SD or don't work period. The approved Android smart TV devices, like Amazon Fire TV, Google TV, and Android TV are approved and most of the mainstream streaming services, including Netflix, work at 1080p and work very well.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Kickstarter is nothing more than a method to gather funding and make people aware of the project. The goals are clearly stated if and when that particular financial goal is reached. The basic goal of $100k to develop the DVR software has already been reached so it's definitely happening. The $150k stretch goal has also been reached so development for Kodi is also going to happen.


Your confidence in Kickstarter funded software is a lot higher than mine. I've seen too many funded projects fail to have this level of confidence....


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## Jepato (Mar 22, 2015)

This is a company well established in the area the software is targeting. A company with physical and software products that work very well. That's not the case with most failed kickstarter products. 

I was surprised somewhat they went the route of kickstarter at all, but that seems to be all the rage these days even with established profitable companies.


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## Jepato (Mar 22, 2015)

Chris Gerhard said:


> The unapproved Android mini PCs, Minix, Tronsmart, etc. aren't approved for Netflix, so it will be SD only and the other mainstream streaming services mostly are limited to SD or don't work period. The approved Android smart TV devices, like Amazon Fire TV, Google TV, and Android TV are approved and most of the mainstream streaming services, including Netflix, work at 1080p and work very well.


That's true but my point is you can't just use the default android interfaces like you see on a phone and tablet and expect a smooth user experience when it comes to large screen tvs and remote controls. There is no android standard or ecosystem when it comes to this sort of functionality that we have seen used on multiple devices, you are own your own as a company to make something more usable like Amazon did with the fire tv. You can't just use the fire tv or google tv interface on a tivo. Opera apps were designed for this, so it's much easier to implement them on smart tvs and dvrs.

When your device is mainly for streaming, it makes more sense to put in the development to create a smooth android based interface. In Tivo's case, their backbone remains with recording and watching live tv, so it makes sense for them right now to go with an existing platform like Opera TV.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> Your confidence in Kickstarter funded software is a lot higher than mine. I've seen too many funded projects fail to have this level of confidence....


My confidence level has nothing to do with Kickstarter. I had never even heard of Kickstarter prior to the HDHR DVR campaign. My faith is in a company that pioneered a product that blossomed into what it is today. I've already seen what they can do with the HDHR Live TV app in Kodi. The DVR software is the next logical step in it's evolution. SD already has a working DVR app, but it's still a work in progress.

I've been around long enough to realize that promises to deliver products are made all the time that end up being nothing more than vaporware. The thing is, projects like this will never even get off the ground without the proper funding. With the possibility of WMC losing guide data at a moment's notice, many of us are looking for an alternative solution for our HTPCs. The notion that it requires little to no setup or configuration is intriguing at the very least. The idea that I may be able to run it in Kodi is what got me hooked. I already use Kodi for watching movies and videos streamed from my server. The possibility of integrating everything under one front end has me salivating.


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