# No S3 QAM Manual Remap?



## mattn2 (Mar 23, 2001)

I was just poking around on the TiVo.com site and found this in the FAQ: (emphasis added)

*Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?*
The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, *you will require * (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels.

This is from the page http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr.asp
and clicking on "For more information on CableCARD, please click here."

So I am "required" to pay for a CableCARD even for the (by law) free QAM channels. That just does not seem right to me.

# Matt


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

There's been quite a bit of discussion on this topic.

Short answer - we don't know for sure.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

mattn2 said:


> I So I am "required" to pay for a CableCARD even for the (by law) free QAM channels. That just does not seem right to me.
> 
> # Matt


No such law exists. The cable company does not have to give you any channels via QAM "for free".


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## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Is there any standard commercial device with a built in QAM board?

Emphasis on "standard" because I know there are some weird PCI cards for computers out there, but from I gather those things are flaky and hard to work with. I didn't think any TV/VCR/DVD-Burner/OEM DVR/ETC on the market was able to tune QAM natively?

I was under the impression that digital stations (even free ones) == digital cable box / cable card to watch... on almost anything?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

eisenb11 said:


> Is there any standard commercial device with a built in QAM board?


Lots of HDTV's have ATSC/QAM tuners built-in to them...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Any TV with a CableCARD slot has a built in QAM tuner. Also a lot of the newere ATSC boxes also do QAM.

Dan


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## MsRoboto (Oct 12, 2003)

To answer eisenb11. 

I was under the impression that digital stations (even free ones) == digital cable box / cable card to watch... on almost anything? 

I have a friend that got a new HD television. She only has basic comcast without a digital box. After doing a search for all channels she got all locals in HD. They were way up high in the numbers and may have been funky numbers like 739.1 or something like that. It was hard to find any information or guide information on this. Apparently, this is QAM and is part of standard cable. No extra cost to her.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

eisenb11 said:


> Is there any standard commercial device with a built in QAM board?
> 
> Emphasis on "standard" because I know there are some weird PCI cards for computers out there, but from I gather those things are flaky and hard to work with. I didn't think any TV/VCR/DVD-Burner/OEM DVR/ETC on the market was able to tune QAM natively?
> 
> I was under the impression that digital stations (even free ones) == digital cable box / cable card to watch... on almost anything?


 As mentioned many HDTV models include unencrypted QAM tuners. There are also several set top ATSC tuners such as the Samsung SIR-T451 and several LG models that can tune unencrypted QAM not to mention the various PCI and USB tuners out there.

As my sig below implies I am hoping against hope that unencrypted QAM will be properly supported by the S3.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Any TV with a CableCARD slot has a built in QAM tuner. Also a lot of the newere ATSC boxes also do QAM.
> 
> Dan


My Sony has a CC slot, but I've never really associated that with why it had the QAM tuner. Obviously the QAM tuner works w/o the requirement of having a CC installed in the slot. Are there no HDTV's w/o CC that DO have QAM tuners?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

MsRoboto said:


> They were way up high in the numbers and may have been funky numbers like 739.1 or something like that. It was hard to find any information or guide information on this. Apparently, this is QAM and is part of standard cable. No extra cost to her.


And those numbers sometimes can be changed w/o notice. Hence the need for the manual remap. (I guess). Why can't the guide data just have this info and be updated when it changes?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Possibly. These days a lot of the ATSC tuners have built in QAM support, and most TV manufacturers use standard parts. So if it has a newer ATSC tuner then it might also do QAM even if it doesn't have a CableCARD slot. However the CableCARD slot guarantees that there is a QAM tuner, since there is no way for the CableCARD to work without a QAM tuner.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

greg_burns said:


> Why can't the guide data just have this info and be updated when it changes?


It could. However, from what I hear, in some areas these channels change daily. In those cases it would be impossible for TiVo to keep the guide data up to date. (there is about a 3 day lag for any guide data changes made in the TiVo system)

Dan


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> It could. However, from what I hear, in some areas these channels change daily. In those cases it would be impossible for TiVo to keep the guide data up to date. (there is about a 3 day lag for any guide data changes made in the TiVo system)
> 
> Dan


Daily?!? Holy cow. Mine hasn't changed since I got my TV earlier this year.

Edit: Scratch that, I'm thinking of my OTA HD channels having not changed (well, duh  ). I guess I haven't paid much attention to the QAM ones. I was waiting for the S3 to bother watching them with any regularity.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

eric_mcgovern said:


> There is a "law" regarding the broadcast networks, which is what I assume the OP is speaking of.
> 
> Its part of the must carry ruling, i.e. if NBC is broadcasting in digital, in market, and is carried by the cable company (in analog form), the cable company must carry it, and treat it just like NBC analog. Now sure the cable company could encrypt NBC analog, but then every single subscriber would require a set top box, and they can't force users to use a set top box (they could, they just couldn't charge for them). This would be the only way they could "legally" encrypt the digital channel they are carrying. So the FCC sort of forced cable operators to carry the digital signal at no additional charge, which is why just about every cable co has them in the clear. Of course the digital channels almost always broadcast in HD as well.


He mentions QAM, so it's clear he doesn't mean OTA. Also "free and clear" does not mean "no charge". He was talking about paying money for CableCARD, hence why I assumed his use of the word "free" meant "no charge".


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I don't know about daily changes, but the QAM locations of channels here on Comcast change every week or two. If Tivo only had to deal with a few cable systems, I'm sure they could do it. But I don't see how Tivo could possibly keep up with the changes made by dozens of cable systems every month.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

For many cable system headends the RF channel assignments don't change that often, however the sub-channel assignments can change very often due to how the multiplexing is handled. It also depends on how the specific QAM tuner assigns sub-channels. But it is a moving target for sure.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

eric_mcgovern said:


> There is a "law" regarding the broadcast networks, which is what I assume the OP is speaking of.
> 
> Its part of the must carry ruling, i.e. if NBC is broadcasting in digital, in market, and is carried by the cable company (in analog form), the cable company must carry it, and treat it just like NBC analog. Now sure the cable company could encrypt NBC analog, but then every single subscriber would require a set top box, and they can't force users to use a set top box (they could, they just couldn't charge for them). This would be the only way they could "legally" encrypt the digital channel they are carrying. So the FCC sort of forced cable operators to carry the digital signal at no additional charge, which is why just about every cable co has them in the clear. Of course the digital channels almost always broadcast in HD as well.
> 
> ...


Um, no. There is no digital "must carry" provision. The FCC only mandates (currently) an analog must carry. Trust me. We went over a year without "digital" (digital or HD) of our local CBS station because they wanted our local TW office to pay them for that signal. Even though TW carried the analog station.

If there is an FCC requirement that says cable can't "force" someone to rent an STB, then it would seem that cable using SDV would be in violation of this, because currently the ONLY way to watch an SDV channel is to use an STB from the cable company. And both our local TW Albany and TW South Carolina offices have stated that they are NOT required to give the STB for free.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

m_jonis said:


> Um, no. There is no digital "must carry" provision. The FCC only mandates (currently) an analog must carry. Trust me. We went over a year without "digital" (digital or HD) of our local CBS station because they wanted our local TW office to pay them for that signal. Even though TW carried the analog station.


I'm not sure if the "must carry" rules cover the digital broadcasts, but what you are describing is consistent with those rules (unless anything has changed since the last time I checked).

The rules say that each station can decide for itself to either charge the cable company for the right to carry it, or to invoke "must carry," which means that the cable company _must_ carry the station but does not have to pay for the right to do so. The station can only change its selection at certain intervals (I think every three years?).

So, it's like a game of chicken - if you think the cable company can't stand to be without your station, you choose to charge for it. This means they don't have to carry it, though, so if you're wrong, they won't. On the other hand, if you thought from the start that they wouldn't carry you (or just wouldn't pay), then you would choose the "must carry" option.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> However the CableCARD slot guarantees that there is a QAM tuner, since there is no way for the CableCARD to work without a QAM tuner.


So even if you can't remap the channels you would still be able to tune the QAM stations manually, right? You just wouldn't be able to schedule recordings via season passes or wishlists which both depend on the associated guide data?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That is correct. If there is no guide data then the best you'd be able to do is manual recordings of the QAM channels which would then be listed as "Manual: _date time_".

Dan


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

Either that FAQ is very poorly worded or I'm NOT buying an S3.

Comcast here has local HD in clear QAM. The channels don't change. Comcast also has SD clear QAM simulcast of local analog. Either I can record both of those w/o cablecard or I don't buy an S3.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Then you're probably not going to be buying a S3. While you will technically be able to record any channel the S3 can tune (which should include all QAM channels) the most likely approach to handeling the mapping of those channels to their respective guide data is via the CableCARD. It's possible they might add an interface for manually mapping the channels yourself, however unlikely given the wording of this FAQ.

Dan


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Maybe this has been asked before...

Can you rent a CC w/o subscribing to digital cable from Comcast? The obvious answer seems to be no, but these are new waters were entering.

Edit: Let me ask that another way. Is it possible to get the HD package w/o subscribing to the digital package. There was a post here not long ago were somebody said a co-worker claimed to be doing just that.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Can you rent a CC w/o subscribing to digital cable from Comcast? The obvious answer seems to be no, but these are new waters were entering.


The HDTV locals are part of Comcast limited basic ($14/mo service). You do need digital service to get most of their other HD channels, like ESPN-HD and Discovery, which are encrypted. In some markets, you may get one or two other HD channels with limited basic, such as the InHD channels.

As far as CableCards without digital service --- yes, it can be done. However, for them to process the order, you typically have to order digital service at the same time. Once the CableCard is installed and activated, call to unsubscribe from the digital package. That way, you are paying the ~$2/mo for the CableCard and get the unencrypted digital channels mapped correctly, but can stick to analog basic service without the extended or digital packages.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> The HDTV locals are part of Comcast limited basic ($14/mo service). You do need digital service to get most of their other HD channels, like ESPN-HD and Discovery, which are encrypted. In some markets, you may get one or two other HD channels with limited basic, such as the InHD channels.
> 
> As far as CableCards without digital service --- yes, it can be done. However, for them to process the order, you typically have to order digital service at the same time. Once the CableCard is installed and activated, call to unsubscribe from the digital package. That way, you are paying the ~$2/mo for the CableCard and get the unencrypted digital channels mapped correctly, but can stick to analog basic service without the extended or digital packages.


Great news! :up: I am currently a digital subscriber until this special I'm on runs out. I'll get the CC prior to downgrading and see how it goes.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

mattn2 said:


> I was just poking around on the TiVo.com site and found this in the FAQ: (emphasis added)
> 
> *Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?*
> The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, *you will require * (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels.
> ...


Back to the subject at hand. While the FAQ does not say specifically say that you cannot manual map digital channels.

What it does say is what's pretty much guaranteed. You will need a CableCARD to guarantee that you get the Digital Channels (because most of the things are encyrpted) and you can still receive SD Analog Channels (as they are not encrypted.)

That in no way shape or form implies that you can or cannot manually map channels.

That said, if you're willing to pay $800 for a box, pay for subscription fees (if you bought lifetime subscription you still paid for subscription fees), and are crying about having to pay $2/mo for a CableCARD, then you got a problem IMHO.

Unfortunately all we really know about the S3 is what we were told on that CES video from earlier this year. And that's not even 100% certain, just what was planned at that time.

The FAQ is lame and limited.

CCourtney


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

CCourtney said:


> That said, if you're willing to pay $800 for a box, pay for subscription fees (if you bought lifetime subscription you still paid for subscription fees), and are crying about having to pay $2/mo for a CableCARD, then you got a problem IMHO.


It is not just $2 more. It is $2 more + digital cable package. I just want locals in HD. I cannot get them all via OTA. Hopefully what bkdtv suggested couple posts back will work.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> It is not just $2 more. It is $2 more + digital cable package. I just want locals in HD. I cannot get them all via OTA. Hopefully what bkdtv suggested couple posts back will work.


but you may have to get the digital cable package to get the local HD channels via cable TV. You're probably gonna wind up paying a lot more to the cable company than you are now.


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## mattn2 (Mar 23, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> It is not just $2 more. It is $2 more + digital cable package. I just want locals in HD. I cannot get them all via OTA. Hopefully what bkdtv suggested couple posts back will work.


OP here ... Greg hit the nail on the head. It is not just $5 more (per card) for $10, but it is also the $50 per month more for the digital package. NOTHING exists on my digital package in HD except the locals (Stoopid cable co did an "upgrade" over the last 2 years and didn't up the bandwidth). This is a total of $60 a month to the cable co just to receive what I can't OTA (alphabet networks) due to the Denver DMA NIMBY problem.

In order to get any other HD besides FOX and CW (which I can get OTA), I am trapped into D* or E* for the forseeable future, or QAM for the other "free" networks.

# Matt


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

jsmeeker said:


> but you may have to get the digital cable package to get the local HD channels via cable TV. You're probably gonna wind up paying a lot more to the cable company than you are now.


 No, at least for my headend all the major network HD channels are unencrypted and available to a clear QAM tuner with just subscription to basic cable. Not having to subscribe to digital cable saves a lot of money/month in my case:
$10 HD DVR box rental
$5 DVR fee
$12.95 digital cable

If I want CableCard then I am required to subscribe to digital cable so that's $13/month + $2/month for each CableCard more (plus an additional outlet fee if I want 2nd cablecard).

So with proper unencrypted QAM support with the S3 I could potentially shave off $28/month from cable bill which I would then apply towards S3 box + subscription fees.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> but you may have to get the digital cable package to get the local HD channels via cable TV. You're probably gonna wind up paying a lot more to the cable company than you are now.


Maybe, maybe not.

See this thread a couple back.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4345227&&#post4345227

I should be able to get the local HD channels w/o the digital package. But I need the Cable Card to tune them correctly. There's the rub. I have the digital package now. The plan is to get a CC now, then downgrade back to basic cable but hold onto the cable card. Will it work? Who knows?


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

mattn2 said:


> OP here ... Greg hit the nail on the head. It is not just $5 more (per card) for $10, but it is also the $50 per month more for the digital package. NOTHING exists on my digital package in HD except the locals (Stoopid cable co did an "upgrade" over the last 2 years and didn't up the bandwidth). This is a total of $60 a month to the cable co just to receive what I can't OTA (alphabet networks) due to the Denver DMA NIMBY problem.
> 
> In order to get any other HD besides FOX and CW (which I can get OTA), I am trapped into D* or E* for the forseeable future, or QAM for the other "free" networks.
> 
> # Matt


Try getting a good VHF antenna. According to antenna web from Longmont, the ABC, CBS and NBC antenna's in Denver are along the same trajectory and about the same distance as the Fox - not sure what CW is - (i.e. all located near each other) But ABC, CBS and NBC are all VHF while Fox is UHF.

If you have good enough line of site to get UHF you should be able to pick up the VHF w/ a decent antenna. You indicate you're in longmont, you should be able to use an decent Attic Antenna. If you can't then you can fight an HOA playing NIMBY games.

CCourtney

PS: It's not $60 more per month for you. It's a total of $54/mo for the digital cable (assuming that you actually have to get it.) and there is not charge for CableCARDs from Comcast in your area. Go check their website. Take off the Basic Cable charges from this and you're down lower.

But once again, you should be able to get it OTA, and I'd bet even money that the S3 will be able to do QAM mapping manually.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

moyekj said:


> No, at least for my headend all the major network HD channels are unencrypted and available to a clear QAM tuner with just subscription to basic cable. Not having to subscribe to digital cable saves a lot of money/month in my case:
> .


Damn. Your lucky. I wish it was that way for me. I could buy an HDTV right now (one with a QAM tuner) and I would at least be able to get some stuff in HiDef the day I got the TV.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

CCourtney said:


> Try getting a good VHF antenna. According to antenna web from Longmont, the ABC, CBS and NBC antenna's in Denver are along the same trajectory and about the same distance as the Fox - not sure what CW is - (i.e. all located near each other) But ABC, CBS and NBC are all VHF while Fox is UHF.
> 
> If you have good enough line of site to get UHF you should be able to pick up the VHF w/ a decent antenna. You indicate you're in longmont, you should be able to use an decent Attic Antenna. If you can't then you can fight an HOA playing NIMBY games.
> 
> CCourtney


I have good signal strength with an internal Silver Sensor antenna. I have signals to the left of me, signals to the right, signals on top of me. Signals, signals, signals.

Which means I have *MULTIPATH*. I'm paying Comcast $10/mo to solve that problem. That's much easier than buying an external antenna and hoping I can tweak it enough to get rid of multipath. I am NOT willing to sign up for one of Comcast's overpriced packages just so I can get Cablecard. I have DirecTV for everything but OTA HD.

Multipath problems are far from uncommon. I bet that in the "near suburbs" where I am, there are 10x as many people with multipath as with marginal signals.

I need good QAM capability from the S3 TiVo. If I don't get it I will be forced to build my own "freeware" PVR. That's just absurd. I have more money than time. I'm willing to buy a commercial product. But nobody will sell me that product?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

moyekj said:


> ...at least for my headend all the major network HD channels are unencrypted and available to a clear QAM tuner with just subscription to basic cable. Not having to subscribe to digital cable saves a lot of money/month...


Same with me when I had the DHG....hoping the S3 does the same.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I think the worst case, even if the Series3 doesn't QAM remap w/o CableCard, is that you order one CableCard and then cancel digital service.

You follow the same approach you would use if you wanted the HDTV set-top box for locals without digital service. [Often] Customer service won't send someone out to install the cable company's HDTV STB unless you also order digital service. So what you do is order digital service, get the HDTV box installed, and then cancel digital service. You get to keep the HDTV STB for your locals at the standard lease fee. CableCards and non-DVR HDTV boxes are not dependent on the digital service tier -- at least, shouldn't be in any market served by Comcast, Cox, Fios, or TWC.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> I think the worst case, even if the Series3 doesn't QAM remap w/o CableCard, is that you order one CableCard and then cancel digital service.


...or simply tune them OTA. My problem there is the CBS affil is a different direction from all my other affils, and I'd have to swing my antenna...not good when you're recording two sources from two different directions.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> You do exactly the same thing as you'd do if you wanted the HDTV set-top box for locals. The CSRs won't lease you the cable company HDTV box for $5-10/mo unless you buy digital service too.


They do in this area. The simple HD box rents for about $7/mo. However, they won't let you rent an HD DVR without digital service.


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## mattn2 (Mar 23, 2001)

CCourtney said:


> Try getting a good VHF antenna. According to antenna web from Longmont, the ABC, CBS and NBC antenna's in Denver are along the same trajectory and about the same distance as the Fox - not sure what CW is - (i.e. all located near each other) But ABC, CBS and NBC are all VHF while Fox is UHF.
> 
> If you have good enough line of site to get UHF you should be able to pick up the VHF w/ a decent antenna. You indicate you're in longmont, you should be able to use an decent Attic Antenna. If you can't then you can fight an HOA playing NIMBY games.
> 
> ...


CCourtney ... Sorry that you are mis-informed about Denver. See: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=28456 for the whole NIMBY problem. 
Also: http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/

Denver is the ONLY DMA in the top 25 that is not broadcasting ANY Digital at full power.

I have a CM4228 on a mast at 12 feet above my roof.

NBC,CBS,ABC, oldUPN, & PBS are "broadcasting" from the tallest building in downtown Denver (at less than 1/10 the power). I am blocked from downtown Denver by a substantial hill. The NIMBY problem is with the new consolidated tower on Lookout Mountain (where analog is and FOX/CW digital are). All existing analog towers are legal-nonconforming (were there before zoning). The NIMBY are fighting a new consolidated tower that when built would remove the 4 old analog towers.

I bet that we will not have OTA at full power until analog cut-off.

And for the Cable Card, I called up the local office, and the $5 per card is what I was quoted. Add the Digital tier for another 54.94. The price for the Analog basic is included w/ my Internet Access.

# Matt


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## TiVoMonkey (Jan 12, 2002)

greg_burns said:


> And those numbers sometimes can be changed w/o notice. Hence the need for the manual remap. (I guess). Why can't the guide data just have this info and be updated when it changes?


Because the cable companies have no real reason to give out a lineup for their unmapped QAM channels, and channels are moved around in QAMs from time to time, without notice. And people with digital cable boxes see no difference.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

mattn2 said:


> CCourtney ... Sorry that you are mis-informed about Denver. See: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=28456 for the whole NIMBY problem.
> Also: http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/
> 
> Denver is the ONLY DMA in the top 25 that is not broadcasting ANY Digital at full power.
> ...


Ok, I missunderstood the NIMBY reference. It's usually in reference to HOA's or neighborhood associations trying to prevent you from putting up an Antenna. Not the scenario described here.

That said, according to Comcast's website http://www.comcast.com/customers/faq/FaqDetails.ashx?Id=2651 (you need to put in your area code to get the right details) There's no charge for CC (except for installation.) And this has been reported by a number of Comcast customers as well.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

TiVoMonkey said:


> Because the cable companies have no real reason to give out a lineup for their unmapped QAM channels, and channels are moved around in QAMs from time to time, without notice. And people with digital cable boxes see no difference.


All true. But Tivo has an incentive to get Tribune to get this data if it will help them sell more service. But maybe they don't have any leverage there or the data is simply not available to be gotten.


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## TiVoMonkey (Jan 12, 2002)

greg_burns said:


> All true. But Tivo has an incentive to get Tribune to get this data if it will help them sell more service. But maybe they don't have any leverage there or the data is simply not available to be gotten.


Tribune can't get the data if cable companies don't publish it. If cable companies wish to move channels around in QAM's any time they need to, because of bandwidth issues or other issues, I don't imagine they'd want to tell Tribune everytime. Cable lineups don't change as often as they probably move channels around to different frequencies.

And no one wants their TiVo missing a recording if the cable company decided to move a channel in the middle of the day.

I can't really even find anywhere that a cable company advertises that you can get digital and HD channels without a cablecard in a cablecard enabled TV.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I realize this is a generic FAQ, but I searched for cablecard at comcast.com:
What is the cost for CableCARD service?
There is no additional charge for CableCARD service above what you currently pay for Digital Cable service...

So that sort of implies that you need digital cable to get a cable card.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mattack said:


> I realize this is a generic FAQ, but I searched for cablecard at comcast.com:
> What is the cost for CableCARD service?
> There is no additional charge for CableCARD service above what you currently pay for Digital Cable service...
> 
> So that sort of implies that you need digital cable to get a cable card.


In the Hartford CT area the 2nd CC will add (with all fees) $3.25 to your bill. If you take Digital service without a cable box you get the first CC free. If you have a cable box you must pay $3.25 for each Cable card. Will Comcast take TiVo as a single outlet ?? in that case you could get two cable cards for the price on one. I don't think Comcast has looked at that yet.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Will Comcast take TiVo as a single outlet ?? in that case you could get two cable cards for the price on one.


This probably depends on your Comcast division and/or the person you get in the billing department. On Comcast here in VA, it's an outlet fee, so you get two CableCards for the price of one.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> This probably depends on your Comcast division and/or the person you get in the billing department. On Comcast here in VA, it's an outlet fee, so you get two CableCards for the price of one.


Also true here, and the price of one CC is $0. The install is $15.99. An additional digital outlet is $5 monthly. Digital Service comes with one free STB. CC's can be substituted for the STB without an additional outlet charge.


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## sonicboom (Sep 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Possibly. These days a lot of the ATSC tuners have built in QAM support, and most TV manufacturers use standard parts. So if it has a newer ATSC tuner then it might also do QAM even if it doesn't have a CableCARD slot. However the CableCARD slot guarantees that there is a QAM tuner, since there is no way for the CableCARD to work without a QAM tuner.
> 
> Dan


HDTVs without Cablecard slots but with QAM tuners do exist.

Goggle "Vizio" for examples.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Is one CableCard sufficient to record two clear QAM channels at the same time?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Is one CableCard sufficient to record two clear QAM channels at the same time?


We'll find out soon enough.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

c3 said:


> Is one CableCard sufficient to record two clear QAM channels at the same time?


On the TiVo spec its not, one Cable Card one QAM channel. This unit will not be a universal QAM tuner. It will be set up by TiVo to your cable system at you ZIP. It will set up digital channels only if a Cable Card is in the unit or it will just set up the analog cable channels (2-99). The user will have no control of this despite many peoples hope of a manual QAM setup option.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

We won't know for sure until the S3 is released. There's also a possibility PSIP information can be used to map to OTA channel for which there is a TMS guide lineup - so for some clear QAM HD channels I still have some hope it may work.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

I get OTA quite well with a small powered Terk Antenna. If Comcast tries to milk me for a second outlet fee for the 2nd cablecard, I'll just get ONE CC and will map all my broadcast network season passes to the OTA signals. 99.9% of the scheduling conflicts my life are between ABC, CBS, Fox, and NBC. Pretty much all of the cable shows repeat withing 24 hours.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

lessd said:


> On the TiVo spec its not, one Cable Card one QAM channel. This unit will not be a universal QAM tuner. It will be set up by TiVo to your cable system at you ZIP. It will set up digital channels only if a Cable Card is in the unit or it will just set up the analog cable channels (2-99). The user will have no control of this despite many peoples hope of a manual QAM setup option.


Although the limited info currently on TiVo's website about CC's is more restrictive than what should be possible, I'm inclined to agree with your supposition. Such restrictions in the name of KISS are the TiVo way, as far as the TV side of its technology. On the digital/internet side TiVo gets deeper into complexity in developing and promoting its capabilities.

If true Series 3's need for a CC to receive any digital cable channels is a disappointment and an unneccesary shortcoming and furthers my opinion that TiVo needs something other than Series 3 to receive both digital and analog cable along with NTSC/ATSC OTA via STB's. I'm glad I bought Sony's HD DVR for its ability to manually map channel line-ups w/o a CC and to integrate limited basic cable line-ups with OTA channels.

KISS=Keep It Simple Stupid


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

lessd said:


> On the TiVo spec its not, one Cable Card one QAM channel. This unit will not be a universal QAM tuner. It will be set up by TiVo to your cable system at you ZIP. It will set up digital channels only if a Cable Card is in the unit or it will just set up the analog cable channels (2-99). The user will have no control of this despite many peoples hope of a manual QAM setup option.


Only programming information on the STB Channel numbers will be setup by TiVo based on your zip. The mapping of the QAM channels would still need to be done by the CableCo or manually (if option is provided.) That is to say that mapping of a physical channel that's tuned to when you enter into a channel number in STB is NOT done by TiVo but is done by the CableCo automatically when you setup the CableCARD and hook it up to their system, they also automatically remap upon changing allocation (which has happened to several stations w/ my CableCo on my Sony DHG-HDD500 w/ CC installed.)

Unless you're privy to a Spec that none of the rest of us are, then you do not know for sure if we'll be able to manually map the channels or not. Are you privy to such a spec? If you are did you sign an NDA?

I agree w/ the Troll's general comment on KISS, but I think you can still KISS and allow for a bit more flexibility.

CCourtney


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

CCourtney said:


> Only programming information on the STB Channel numbers will be setup by TiVo based on your zip. The mapping of the QAM channels would still need to be done by the CableCo or manually (if option is provided.) That is to say that mapping of a physical channel that's tuned to when you enter into a channel number in STB is NOT done by TiVo but is done by the CableCo automatically when you setup the CableCARD and hook it up to their system, they also automatically remap upon changing allocation (which has happened to several stations w/ my CableCo on my Sony DHG-HDD500 w/ CC installed.)
> 
> Unless you're privy to a Spec that none of the rest of us are, then you do not know for sure if we'll be able to manually map the channels or not. Are you privy to such a spec? If you are did you sign an NDA?
> 
> ...


This is a quote from a tIvo pop up on their series 3 sign up page.

*Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?
The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, you will require (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels.*

As you see they use the word require, if they had provided for manual mapping I would guess they would have used different wording. Could I be wrong ? small chance of that as TiVo has never allowed manual channel mapping as TiVo is user friendly and as automatic as they can make it. TiVo takes data from what you are recording and watching (they say they leave out any personal ID of that data). With manual mapping they would have change their data collection at their head end. People would be missing programs as Cable Co change the QAM channels at will and do not have to tell anybody as long as the CC maps to the same channel.

We will all find out on 9/17/06.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

lessd said:


> This is a quote from a tIvo pop up on their series 3 sign up page.
> 
> *Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?
> The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, you will require (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels.*
> ...


IMHO that's too open of a statement. In the general case, yes in order to receive HD Digital Channels you will be required to have a CableCARD, that's because the majority of Digital HD Channels are encrypted. This FAQ is about a simple as you can make it.

It does not explicitly say that you cannot directly to the physical channel number, or perform manual mapping of the channel number. Both of which I am able to do with my Sony DHG-HDD500 which had a similar statement regarding Digital Cable Channel when it came out.

CCourtney

PS: In the words of Yoda: An FAQ, does not a Spec make


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

CCourtney said:


> IMHO that's too open of a statement. In the general case, yes in order to receive HD Digital Channels you will be required to have a CableCARD, that's because the majority of Digital HD Channels are encrypted. This FAQ is about a simple as you can make it.
> 
> It does not explicitly say that you cannot directly to the physical channel number, or perform manual mapping of the channel number. Both of which I am able to do with my Sony DHG-HDD500 which had a similar statement regarding Digital Cable Channel when it was came out.
> 
> CCourtney


I was able to do that with my Sony HD-TV also but the TiVo has never had an open chennel scan for all chenneles that you COULD recieve with the TiVo itself and you would need that to find all the open QAM chennels, then assign them. Oh well you can all hope I guess.


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## musicforme (Nov 19, 2003)

I bought a Samsung DLP HL-S5088w back in June. This tv has a CableCard slot and a QAM tuner. 

When I went through the setup process, I plugged in my zip code and cable company info on the screen. My TV is able to get the Guide data over the line and display the local HDTV signals. I do not subscribe to any digital service and do not have any type of cable box. My cable company is Time Warner (formally Comcast).

I would think the Series3 would be able to grab the same data and signal off the same line. This will be a moot point for me since I plan on moving to Verzon's Fios TV with CableCard once I buy a S3.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

What some are forgetting is that manual mapping would be an advanced option, not expected to be used by the masses. But the same target market that Tivo is pitching to are going to be the very people that would understand how to do the mapping.

The vast majority of S3 users will use cablecards. QAM mapping is either or. You can't use a cable card AND allow manual mapping (without a lot of additional code, which certainly isn't worth the effort).

For those that don't want digital tiers and/or cablecards, QAM mapping is a valuable option.

There will be some that would only use the Series 3 if QAM mapping is available.

Again, the Sony DHG box is the model here - there's no reason that QAM mapping can't be implemented in a traditional KISS method (I see it as an option off the channels I receive menu).

Will it be in the initial release? Who knows? But if there are no plans for it, it would be an alarming and very short-sighted ommission.


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> But the same target market that Tivo is pitching to are going to be the very people that would understand how to do the mapping.


Or more specifically, TiVo's target market would be the very people that would pay someone to do the mapping.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

lessd said:


> I was able to do that with my Sony HD-TV also but the TiVo has never had an open channel scan for all chenneles that you COULD recieve with the TiVo itself and you would need that to find all the open QAM chennels, then assign them. Oh well you can all hope I guess.


No one has suggested that Tivo implement a channel scan function. That's unnecessary, since anyone that would understand what QAM mapping is almost certainly has a TV that can do the scan.

All we need is a simple mapping feature, which is an extension of what Tivo already implements.

Don't need a full-featured scanner and editor to go with it. THAT would be a violation of the TIVO KISS principle.


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## theone (Nov 11, 2002)

Not sure how pressing one button to scan for all available channels is a complicated process. My TV has it now and finds my QAM channels. Why would I pay $800+ to have access to less channels than I have right now? The whole reason for purchasing an S3 tivo is to do without the cable co's hd dvr that mind you is ridiculously cheap. I dont want to have to pay for digital cable just to record broadcast HD channels.


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## AVSman (Mar 17, 2006)

theone said:


> ...[snip]... I dont want to have to pay for digital cable just to record broadcast HD channels.


Here, here! I believe that there is more than just a small minority in this same boat.

(Or maybe because I'm in this boat it seems bigger.  )


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

lessd said:


> I was able to do that with my Sony HD-TV also but the TiVo has never had an open chennel scan for all chenneles that you COULD recieve with the TiVo itself and you would need that to find all the open QAM chennels, then assign them. Oh well you can all hope I guess.


And that makes sense too, considering that there's never been a TiVo built that would require you to scan for channels as the only thing it can tune to is Analog Cable or NTSC signals. The only reason cable ready TVs had you scan to find channels was to locate which channels are active and which are not. It was not for mapping of channels which the corresponding channel numbers to the physical channels has been consistant. That is not the case for Digital Cable Channels.

For anything else you've had to go through a STB, and the STB tunes to the physical channel. Analog Cable Channels already have predefined channels, doesn't require a mapping. Digital Cable doesn't have predefined channels, and they're also subchanneled to be more specific. This doesn't even need to be scanned, you just need to be able to map the digital cable channel to the physcial cable channel.subchannel.

CCourtney


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

AVSman said:


> Here, here! I believe that there is more than just a small minority in this same boat.
> 
> (Or maybe because I'm in this boat it seems bigger.  )


That's I'd be surprised at. The TiVo community as a whole is a small minority w/ only 4.4M subscribers (That's 4% of the 110M US households.) And 9% of US households have a DVR of some sort according to thisiscable.com. How many CableCo's let you rent a DVR w/o having digital cable?

Then take into consideration if you're only desire is to DVR local HD, what percentage of the country get OTA w/o an issue. Much higher than some people like to post. A few area's like around Denver have issues with power level. Some people have issues with multipathing. But I submit that this is a small percentage of the US and it's this combined with the 'Only want to pay for Analog Cable - but I'm willing to spend $800 on a TiVo box plus Subscription fees (lifetime subscription is still paying for subcription fees IMHO.)' group that falls into this category.

If you are more than a small minority than band together and get an electronic petition going to make CC's available to analog cable subscribers. I wish you luck.

CCourtney


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

theone said:


> Not sure how pressing one button to scan for all available channels is a complicated process. My TV has it now and finds my QAM channels.


Pushing a button to scan for all available isn't a complicated conceptual process. But your TV already has the logic and the one-button built in. Why does Tivo need to write code to do the same thing?

I can certainly envision a Tivo based process that would do the scan and throw up a nice GUI to map/match the channels found, but that's unnecessary work.

Use the TV to scan.

Use the Tivo to map (hopefully).


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

theone said:


> I dont want to have to pay for digital cable just to record broadcast HD channels.


I don't want to eiter, but I have no choice. Getting all OTA just won't work for me. Cable is the only route, and the only route to getting HD locals is with an upgrade to digital cable.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> I don't want to eiter, but I have no choice. Getting all OTA just won't work for me. Cable is the only route, and the only route to getting HD locals is with an upgrade to digital cable.


Are you sure? Are your QAM HD locals encrypted? S3 aside, you should be able to tune those HD locals via a HDTV with QAM tuner if they are not encrypted...


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## musicforme (Nov 19, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> I don't want to eiter, but I have no choice. Getting all OTA just won't work for me. Cable is the only route, and the only route to getting HD locals is with an upgrade to digital cable.


Who is your cable company? I have Time Warner and get HD locals just fine with Extended Basic. I even get TNT-HD plus all those lame music channels.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> Are you sure? Are your QAM HD locals encrypted? S3 aside, you should be able to tune those HD locals via a HDTV with QAM tuner if they are not encrypted...


Positive. It's not that they are encypted. It's that they simply do not exist on my current cable package (ANALOG extended basic). QAM is DIGITAL and to get DIGITAL channels I need to upgrade to a DIGITAL cable package.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> Positive. It's not that they are encypted. It's that they simply do not exist on my current cable package (ANALOG extended basic). QAM is DIGITAL and to get DIGITAL channels I need to upgrade to a DIGITAL cable package.


You may be right. I've just been spouting what I've read. I do have those HD channels, but currently am also a digital subscriber.

I just assumed they would still be there when I downgrade back to "basic" cable. Hopefully different providers do this differently.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> You may be right. I've just been spouting what I've read. I do have those HD channels, but currently am also a digital subscriber.
> 
> I just assumed they would still be there when I downgrade back to "basic" cable. Hopefully different providers do this differently.


I'm pretty sure different providers do it differently, and that it can vary within a company depending on location. My current provider (Time Warner) requires DIGITAL cable. So did my previous provider (Comcast)


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

jsmeeker said:


> Positive. It's not that they are encypted. It's that they simply do not exist on my current cable package (ANALOG extended basic). QAM is DIGITAL and to get DIGITAL channels I need to upgrade to a DIGITAL cable package.


 It's certainly possible (though unlikely) that all the HD channels of interest are grouped together in a frequency band that is currently being filtered out at your local drop to your house and therefore a scan would not pick them up. The more likely scenario is the HD channel frequencies are all over the map and at least a few of them cannot be filtered out. Bottom line is you should head over to AVS Forums and look for a thread based on your local cable headend to see if someone has mapped out the frequencies, or if you have a QAM tuner scan them for yourself. I have the tools to do this for my local headend and have a spreadsheet which is fairly up to date. In my case the unencrypted HD channels are indeed all over the frequency map and by simply subscribing to limited basic I would have access to several of them. I have a friend at work that actually takes advantage of this - receives and records the unencrypted HD channels using a PCI HD tuner with subscription only to limited basic. I also have a friend in a different state and with a different cable company that does the same.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

moyekj said:


> It's certainly possible (though unlikely) that all the HD channels of interest are grouped together in a frequency band that is currently being filtered out at your local drop to your house and therefore a scan would not pick them up. The more likely scenario is the HD channel frequencies are all over the map and at least a few of them cannot be filtered out. Bottom line is you should head over to AVS Forums and look for a thread based on your local cable headend to see if someone has mapped out the frequencies, or if you have a QAM tuner scan them for yourself. I have the tools to do this for my local headend and have a spreadsheet which is fairly up to date. In my case the unencrypted HD channels are indeed all over the frequency map and by simply subscribing to limited basic I would have access to several of them. I have a friend at work that actually takes advantage of this - receives and records the unencrypted HD channels with subscription only to limited basic.


I don't have anyway to check. Is there any way to get a QAM tuner other than in an an actual HDTV or the soon to be released Series 3 TiVo?

When I read the FAQ at the Time-Warner site, one of the questions is "What do I need to get HD Channels from Time-Warner". The answer is "Digital Cable".

It may be moot anyway. If they are there for some reason, but there is no way to re-map the QAM stuff in the TiVo, then a CableCARD is the only answer, and the CableCARD means digital cable anyway.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

jsmeeker said:


> I don't have anyway to check. Is there any way to get a QAM tuner other than in an an actual HDTV or the soon to be released Series 3 TiVo?
> 
> When I read the FAQ at the Time-Warner site, one of the questions is "What do I need to get HD Channels from Time-Warner". The answer is "Digital Cable".
> 
> It may be moot anyway. If they are there for some reason, but there is no way to re-map the QAM stuff in the TiVo, then a CableCARD is the only answer, and the CableCARD means digital cable anyway.


 Yes, there are several HD capable unencrypted QAM tuners for PCs on the market. For example I have the Fusion 5 USB HD tuner that can handle unencrypted QAM and OTA ATSC tuning. Also, my cable company Motorola DCT6416 DVR has diagnostics where it reports the frequencies the 2 tuners are currently tuned to, so that's another tool in my arsenal I use to even map out all the encrypted channels. The tools are out there and it's likely someone in your cable market has the information you are looking for and has shared it on a forum somewhere.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

moyekj said:


> Yes, there are several HD capable unencrypted QAM tuners for PCs on the market. For example I have the Fusion 5 USB HD tuner that can handle unencrypted QAM and OTA ATSC tuning. Also, my cable company Motorola DCT6416 DVR has diagnostics where it reports the frequencies the 2 tuners are currently tuned to, so that's another tool in my arsenal I use to even map out all the encrypted channels. The tools are out there and it's likely someone in your cable market has the information you are looking for and has shared it on a forum somewhere.


I don't have a PC to plug it into and even if I did, I wouldn't want to drop the cash on it. It would be cool to be able to borrow some device from someone to see what I have (if anything)


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> I don't have anyway to check. Is there any way to get a QAM tuner other than in an an actual HDTV or the soon to be released Series 3 TiVo?


You might try your local reception forum on avs to see if anyone else has tried tuning in unencrypted QAM channels on TWC. I understand your confusion on the subject. TWC doesn't exactly advertise the ability to receive some of their digital programing for free with a simple QAM capabile tuner. The only TWC supported method is subbing to digital cable while a tuner can get any "unfiltered", non-encrypted channels they send down the pipe.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

terryfoster said:


> You might try your local reception form on avs to see if anyone else has tried tuning in unencrypted QAM channels on TWC. I understand your confusion on the subject. TWC doesn't exactly advertise the ability to receive some of their digital programing for free with a simple QAM capabile tuner. The only TWC supported method is subbing to digital cable while a tuner can get any "unfiltered", non-encrypted channels they send down the pipe.


yeah.. I hear yeah.. it's just that it makes sense to me that ANALOG cable service has NO digital anything.

All along, I had been assuming I would have to go to digital cable anyway, so I've sort of "planned" for it. Right now, I have a normal NTSC TV (over 10 years old) and analog cable with no box. What I really WANT to do is get a nice new HDTV. I want to be able to starting watching Hi Def programming right away. Within minutes of setting up the TV. So, do I upgrade to digital cable, then go get the TV or do I get the TV and cross my fingers and hope that there IS QAM stuff there.

again, it may all be moot if TiVo won't do QAM stuff properly without a CableCARD


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## musicforme (Nov 19, 2003)

terryfoster said:


> You might try your local reception forum on avs to see if anyone else has tried tuning in unencrypted QAM channels on TWC. I understand your confusion on the subject. TWC doesn't exactly advertise the ability to receive some of their digital programing for free with a simple QAM capabile tuner. The only TWC supported method is subbing to digital cable while a tuner can get any "unfiltered", non-encrypted channels they send down the pipe.


I posted earlier in this thread that I get my locals in HD just fine without subscribing to digital cable. My TV has a QAM tuner in it and it picks up the local HDs plus the music channels as well.

I'm with Time Warner (formally Comcast). I live in the same area as Smeek.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

musicforme said:


> I posted earlier in this thread that I get my locals in HD just fine without subscribing to digital cable. My TV has a QAM tuner in it and it picks up the local HDs plus the music channels as well.
> 
> I'm with Time Warner (formally Comcast). I live in the same area as Smeek.


You live in Grapevine. I live in Dallas in an MDU.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

One thing all you people expecting to get the QAM locals for free have to realize is that even if TiVo does offer a way to manually map channels, if your cable company changes them around a lot, then you're not going to get the true TiVo experience. Because every time they move the channels you're going to have to catch it and change the manual mapping otherwise the TiVo will record the wrong channel and you'll miss recordings.

With a CableCARD you're guaranteed to always have the write mappings, so you'll never have to worry about missing things if the channels move around. It seems that for $3-$6/mo it's worth the peace of mind to just get the CableCARDs.

Dan


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> One thing all you people expecting to get the QAM locals for free have to realize is that even if TiVo does offer a way to manually map channels, if your cable company changes them around a lot, then you're not going to get the true TiVo experience. Because every time they move the channels you're going to have to catch it and change the manual mapping otherwise the TiVo will record the wrong channel and you'll miss recordings.


Assuming your Cable Co doesn't pass on the PSIP data from the broadcaster this is true.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> It seems that for $3-$6/mo it's worth the peace of mind to just get the CableCARDs.


But then your back to the arguement that it isn't just the price of the CC rental. You need a digital package too. (Or maybe you don't)


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

terryfoster said:


> Assuming your Cable Co doesn't pass on the PSIP data from the broadcaster this is true.


If the cableco is passing PSIP, wouldn't that make the need to map QAM channels moot?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> If the cableco is passing PSIP, wouldn't that make the need to map QAM channels moot?


 Hopefully yes, but other problem is there are many unencrypted digital channels without PSIP as well. For example, my cable company is digital simulcasting the whole analog lineup of channels and several of those are unencrypted but have no PSIP information. Also, not all QAM tuners are designed to read the PSIP information in the 1st place and it's unknown if the S3 tuners can.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> With a CableCARD you're guaranteed to always have the write mappings, so you'll never have to worry about missing things if the channels move around. It seems that for $3-$6/mo it's worth the peace of mind to just get the CableCARDs.


 I doubt cable companies make it easy for you to rent CableCards without paying for digital service as well and the digital service fee is the bulk of the cost - the CC cost is negligible in comparison.

From Tivo's perspective I can see the S3 is targetting the high end customers who wouldn't really try and save every penny as we are basically trying to do here - so my expectations are not too high but I would love to be pleasantly surprised.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

musicforme said:


> I posted earlier in this thread that I get my locals in HD just fine without subscribing to digital cable. My TV has a QAM tuner in it and it picks up the local HDs plus the music channels as well.
> 
> I'm with Time Warner (formally Comcast). I live in the same area as Smeek.


I'm with Comcast in Jersey City, and my HDTV without cablebox or cablecard gets the same analog channels I was getting with "basic enhanced," along with all of those same channels in 480i Digital, a few bonus channels (i, and movieplex for example), and all the OTA HD channels along with most of their SD subchannels. And as an added bonus, all the music channels. I made NO changes to my cable subscription. I did however have to manually label all those channels. and my TV has NO convenient way to rescan for more channel without blowing out all that work.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Some people have mentioned signinig up for digital service to get the CableCard, and then cancel the digital service. Can't they disable the CableCard, making it useless?


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

Instead of signing up for a digital package, I think you can order a premium channel on top of basic cable and get a cablecard that way.

For me that might be the way to go. I get the $10 basic cable from Comcast (for HD locals) and everything else from DirecTV. I should be able to drop HBO from DirectTV and get it thru Comcast instead.

Of course I can't confirm any of this any more. Comcast has taken everything useful off its basic web site. There may be more information in Flash pages but I refuse to load that Macromedia crap on my machine.


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## Jazhuis (Aug 30, 2006)

jsmeeker said:


> yeah.. I hear yeah.. it's just that it makes sense to me that ANALOG cable service has NO digital anything.


Well, there's only one physical cable coming to your house, and the digital signals have to get there somehow.

Current cable implementation trends more towards blasting every channel to everybody all the time, and then filtering out the individual customers' restrictions...this is why ye olde analog cable has the in-line notch filters to block out HBO, for example, but if you remove the physical filter, you get HBO.

They're using the same idea for digital cable, except that instead of filtering in the physical cable itself, the digital cable tuner has a decryption key (or keys) for the channels you're supposed to be getting. The difference is that some of those channels don't have encryption on them from the head end, so any QAM tuner can decode those streams to your TV. This may vary somewhat depending on the town and cable provider, but that's generally how it works.

For example, I only have the $9 "local channels only" analog cable package. When I got my new TV, I hooked it up and told it to scan for channels. It picked up some 300+ digital channels, the majority of which give me a "signal weak or encrypted" message when I tune to them. However, some channels DO come through unencrypted, and so I can watch them (generally the digital locals, both SD and HD). A funny side effect is that there are certain digital channels that I can tune to that Comcast has set aside for VOD. When someone is watching something via On Demand, I've been able to tune to that stream and watch it too. Pretty funny when they pause and rewind it for me.

Now the arbitrary sending of video to individuals is closer to SDV. Which we all hate. Right?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Jazhuis said:


> Well, there's only one physical cable coming to your house, and the digital signals have to get there somehow.
> 
> Current cable implementation trends more towards blasting every channel to everybody all the time, and then filtering out the individual customers' restrictions...this is why ye olde analog cable has the in-line notch filters to block out HBO, for example, but if you remove the physical filter, you get HBO.


I was thinking there was a clear distincition between analog cable and digital cable and that the digital stuff is being "filtered" or kept from me some way. If I subscribed to digital, I thought someone from the cable company would have to either do some work in some box in the apartment complex so I got the DIGITAL stuff.

Anyway, maybe you are right. But understand that I think cable companies SUCK ASS and want to do everything and anything possible to "force" you to give them more money. Forcing you to go digitial would be one of those things. This means they can "force" you into a cable box which means you may be more likely to spend money on VOD and PPV stuff that you didn't have access to previously.


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## Jazhuis (Aug 30, 2006)

jsmeeker said:


> I was thinking there was a clear distincition between analog cable and digital cable and that the digital stuff is being "filtered" or kept from me some way. If I subscribed to digital, I thought someone from the cable company would have to either do some work in some box in the apartment complex so I got the DIGITAL stuff.


While plausible, I don't think it's too likely. It's hard enough for the cable companies to get their contractors to actually disconnect your cable after you cancel, much less add that much of a barrier to keep digital from coming to you. 

(That, and the digital frequencies can be interspersed with the analog ones...i.e. channels 80 and 82 are analog, but 81 has digital subchannels on it, so making notch filters for all that might be a hassle)


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Some people have mentioned signinig up for digital service to get the CableCard, and then cancel the digital service. Can't they disable the CableCard, making it useless?


They'll disable the channels you don't pay for, but the remapping will still work.

_Going by my experience with Comcast here..._


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

FYI



engadget said:


> And while we were pleasantly surprised that the Series3 allows you to scan and tune unencrypted QAM programming, we were disappointed in the inability to manually map those channels to their respective networks. TiVo tells us this functionality is being evaluated for a future software update.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

engadget said:


> TiVo tells us this functionality is being evaluated for a future software update.


That is a scary statement. If they said they plan on adding this in a future release, I would of been pleased. This statement seems to say it might be added someday but its not a feature they plan on adding anytime soon.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Man, rainwater, when did you become such a pessimist? It seems like your glass isn't just half-empty, it fell on the floor and shattered. ;-)


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

megazone said:


> Man, rainwater, when did you become such a pessimist? It seems like your glass isn't just half-empty, it fell on the floor and shattered. ;-)


Nope, I plan on getting a S3. But I am realistic about the initial release not being a perfect solution just yet. Thats why I plan on waiting a few months. Don't worry, I am not going to be complaining about what type of chip it has on the inside


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

c3 said:


> Some people have mentioned signinig up for digital service to get the CableCard, and then cancel the digital service. Can't they disable the CableCard, making it useless?


Yep. Depends how lazy your cable company is. Most are pretty lazy and/or incompetent. It doesn't hurt to try. You could always just sign up for one premium channel (HBO), which may be offered a la carte for less money than the digital tier subscription.

Also, people are talking about just getting one CableCard. You need TWO if you want ANY dual-tuner functionality, or you need a single multi-stream CableCard. In other threads, it has been stated that the S3 will *completely disable the second tuner * if only one single-stream CableCard is inserted. Some cable companies may charge an additional outlet fee for this. Others may charge for two truck rolls, especially if you just get one card the first time. Some will give you a hard time about installing two cards in one device.

Having previously worked in consumer electronics, the behavior observed in this thread is typicial. People would buy the highest-priced cell phone out there, then call to complain that it doesn't work well with the cheapest pre-pay phone service. Or people would buy a $50,000 car and complain that it can't use 87 octane gas.

This is the exact expression the engineers used to give each other when talking about these customers:


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Jazhuis said:


> While plausible, I don't think it's too likely. It's hard enough for the cable companies to get their contractors to actually disconnect your cable after you cancel, much less add that much of a barrier to keep digital from coming to you.
> 
> (That, and the digital frequencies can be interspersed with the analog ones...i.e. channels 80 and 82 are analog, but 81 has digital subchannels on it, so making notch filters for all that might be a hassle)


Around here Comcast comes out within a couple of days and puts a filter on the line so you can't get the higher frequencies where the digital channels are(when you drop the digital tier). When I completely dropped cable/internet last year, it was disconnected within a day so I couldn't receive any signal.


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