# Massive phone access number reduction



## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

In my area (area code 570), they just shut off at least 12 phone numbers out of only 19. I know you can connect via network, but that is not an option for everyone. I am OK (due to network connection) but I know 3 people in my area who all have lifetime subscriptions (2 of the 3 just signed up about 1 year ago) and they are now stuck with a toll call to update the tivo. The toll free numbers that were available are also not working anymore.
Does anyone else think this is completely unacceptable? I am surprised I didn't see any other postings about this. Maybe I don't know where to look.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bbonacci said:


> but I know 3 people in my area who all have lifetime subscriptions (2 of the 3 just signed up about 1 year ago) and they are now stuck with a toll call to update the tivo. The toll free numbers that were available are also not working anymore.


This is the first report I have seen of this. It may not be massive across the whole country  TiVo probably looks at useage patterns and makes decisions about this all the time. I do not think toll free numbers have been used for a long time except for the first setup call.

Have your friends called in to TiVo CSR to let them know?


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> This is the first report I have seen of this. It may not be massive across the whole country  TiVo probably looks at useage patterns and makes decisions about this all the time. I do not think toll free numbers have been used for a long time except for the first setup call.
> 
> Have your friends called in to TiVo CSR to let them know?


 We have called several times. When our local number was first disconnected, we were able to switch to a toll free number (that worked for about a month Apr/07 to May/07). TiVO CSR is just saying to use a network connection OR unplug the phone line and plug it in peridoically so that their aren't so many toll calls made (nice suggestion huh?).
Thay are saying they have no control over the numbers????!?!?!?!


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## lcann44 (Apr 15, 2007)

Hello, this is the 21st Century calling. Wireless network. Come join the rest of the world.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

Wireless/Broadband doesn't help Series 1 users on unmodded machines. Perhaps a prelude to TiVo completely abandoning Series 1 users? I think Tivo really needs to step up and allow free transfer of Series 1 lifetimes to newer units -- it just makes sense.


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## Popasmurf (Jun 10, 2002)

Also, please don't forget those of us that live in rural areas with no hope of broadband...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bbonacci said:


> Thay are saying they have no control over the numbers????!?!?!?!


Oh, it may be then that TiVo just buys time on some other service's dial in numbers. It makes sense to have that just be a monthly bill vs maintaining something yourself.
Unfortunately with the prevalance of broadband services today those dial up services are probably loosing custtomers and cutting lightly used numbers. Sympathy for your situation.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

This issue really is from the POP suppliers that TiVo contracts. With more and more people going broadband, dial-up is less profitable, and these POPs have been eliminating less profitable numbers. 

Yes, TiVo could do the proactive thing and have alternative POPs lined up as their primary POPs drop numbers, but that might not be worth it to the bottom line, or it might take some time to get things worked out.

FWIW, if you have dial-up or wireless internet yourself, there are way to connect your TiVo through that, even unhacked.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

classicsat said:


> This issue really is from the POP suppliers that TiVo contracts. With more and more people going broadband, dial-up is less profitable, and these POPs have been eliminating less profitable numbers.





ZeoTiVo said:


> Oh, it may be then that TiVo just buys time on some other service's dial in numbers. It makes sense to have that just be a monthly bill vs maintaining something yourself.
> Unfortunately with the prevalance of broadband services today those dial up services are probably loosing custtomers and cutting lightly used numbers. Sympathy for your situation.






classicsat said:


> Yes, TiVo could do the proactive thing and have alternative POPs lined up as their primary POPs drop numbers, but that might not be worth it to the bottom line, or it might take some time to get things worked out.
> 
> FWIW, if you have dial-up or wireless internet yourself, there are way to connect your TiVo through that, even unhacked.


yes, that might work but TiVo might have to just fall back to a toll free number and perhaps limit it only to certain areasadn or series 1 that really have no other options


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## fergie8 (Oct 26, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> This is the first report I have seen of this. It may not be massive across the whole country  ...


Hrm ...
I live in Chicago. I do recall seeing advance notice about this _somewhere_. I thought it was tucked away in a recent Messages and Settings / Message that was sent down to one of my TiVos, but I just went back and reviewed all the ones I still have and I couldn't find it. (Perhaps it was on the TiVo website ??) Anyway, since I have a broadband connection to my TiVos and it didn't affect me directly, I paid it little mind at the time.

-- 
Michael


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

how expensive is long distance these days? Pick an out of state number (because it seems that out of state calls are somehow cheaper than in-state toll calls) and call there. maybe Tivo could give a dollar or two credit for the LD charges.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

lcann44 said:


> Hello, this is the 21st Century calling. Wireless network. Come join the rest of the world.


Sure! No problem. What is your home address so I can send a bill for the Router, USB wireless module and the monthly broadband services for the users that do not have broadband now. Oh yeah, the ones that can't get broadband, will be billing you for $60 a month for satellite internet.

That is so generous of you! Someone who thinks that everyone should do what they do because everyone MUST be in the same set of circumstances and then they offer to pay for it!!!!!

THANKS!


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

This issue has come up before. When TiVo disabled 800 number years ago it was a big uproar about it and some users were grandfathered to use 800 number. The present status is that if you don't have a local number - tough luck. If you have to use LD - some pointers:
1. You can save some money by letting TiVo make one long call once a week instead of shorter calls daily. This way you will be only uploading your viewing habits data once a week and with some LD services you don't have to pay minimum connect charge daily.
2. Make sure that you disconnect the line after successful call. Some people reported in a past that during version update calls or even data download calls bad connection can make TiVo re-try for hours. I remember a post from a guy who was stuck with LD bill for over $100.
3. Use interstate LD instead of local LD, it will be cheaper.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

samo said:


> This issue has come up before. When TiVo disabled 800 number years ago it was a big uproar about it and some users were grandfathered to use 800 number. The present status is that if you don't have a local number - tough luck. If you have to use LD - some pointers:
> 1. You can save some money by letting TiVo make one long call once a week instead of shorter calls daily. This way you will be only uploading your viewing habits data once a week and with some LD services you don't have to pay minimum connect charge daily.
> 2. Make sure that you disconnect the line after successful call. Some people reported in a past that during version update calls or even data download calls bad connection can make TiVo re-try for hours. I remember a post from a guy who was stuck with LD bill for over $100.
> 3. Use interstate LD instead of local LD, it will be cheaper.


Thanks for the suggestions! I didn't know about the out of state thing. The TiVo CSR actually suggested number 1.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Oh, it may be then that TiVo just buys time on some other service's dial in numbers. It makes sense to have that just be a monthly bill vs maintaining something yourself.
> Unfortunately with the prevalance of broadband services today those dial up services are probably loosing custtomers and cutting lightly used numbers. Sympathy for your situation.


Yes, that makes sense, but no matter how you slice it, the numbers that TiVo has set up as a service to their customers ARE something they have control over. If they are a customer of the "other service" and the other service cuts off some numbers, then TiVo has to be aware of it and do (or not do) something about it, but it is their responsibilty. They may (and obviously did) decide to let it go, but they can not claim freedom from responsibility. If your mother was in a nursing home and the catering service that the nursing home pays stopped serving lunches, would you accept an excuse from the nursing home that you pay, that the catering service is to blame and they (the nursing home) do not have any control over it?


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## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

I live in an area with no broadband and no Tivo number.  

The solution that's worked for me, is to hook my Tivo to my home network, like you would broadband. Share my dialup line to the network, Microsoft XP Internet connection Sharing. Just make sure the dialup is connected and manually run the guide update. 

What I want to know is why Tivo just doesn't allow me to use my ISP's dialup info directly? Tivo is a computer, with a modem, calling an established ISP. Let me choose the provider. 

This would save a lot of hassle and expense for a lot of people.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bbonacci said:


> . They may (and obviously did) decide to let it go, but they can not claim freedom from responsibility. If your mother was in a nursing home and the catering service that the nursing home pays stopped serving lunches, would you accept an excuse from the nursing home that you pay, that the catering service is to blame and they (the nursing home) do not have any control over it?


responsibility lies in whatever the Terms Of Service says. I have used broadband from the start so I never really looked at what the TOS has to say on this. Then there is the whole advertised as such but I am not a Lawyer so I just don't know. Obviosuly TiVo is cutting back phone access and probably has had lawyers advise them on this.

Now does it mean they should stop supporting customers? Well that is _kind of_ like the relative in a nursing home and the obvious answer is "no, of course not" again sympathy for your situation and TiVo employees do read this forum so they will see this but I am not sure what remedy they will have.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

bbonacci said:


> If your mother was in a nursing home and the catering service that the nursing home pays stopped serving lunches, would you accept an excuse from the nursing home that you pay, that the catering service is to blame and they (the nursing home) do not have any control over it?


Good example and solution for your example is a same as for the TiVo service.If nursing home to save money is using catering that doesn't serve lunch anymore, your choice is to move your mother to another nursing home or to pay for lunches out of pocket in addition to what you pay to the nursing home. Same with TiVo service. Either find another provider of DVR service that doesn't require you to use LD, or pay for LD.
As for TiVo responsibility, terms of service were re-written many years ago when issue first came up. Unfortunately, you agreed to pay for LD if local number is not available. You can't even get out of the commitment in case you want to switch due to loss of local numbers.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

[Broken Record]

Being that any TiVo using a telephone line is connecting to a number shared by ISP's such as iQuest, NetZero, etc.
*Why doesn't TiVo update their software to allow the user to connect their DVR to their own ISP by the input of three simple pieces of information: Dial in Number, User Name & password.*

With that, TiVo could drop dial in access in favor of the user supplying their own. After all, how many people how have bought TiVo units that don't have internet access of some sort?

[/broken record]


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

bryan314 said:


> I live in an area with no broadband and no Tivo number.
> 
> The solution that's worked for me, is to hook my Tivo to my home network, like you would broadband. Share my dialup line to the network, Microsoft XP Internet connection Sharing. Just make sure the dialup is connected and manually run the guide update.
> 
> ...


There was a thread on here recently about a fellow that had a similar solution, except he used a router that also had a phone port on it that dialed out on demand instead of dedicating a computer to the function and having to leave it on to provide network access on demand.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> There was a thread on here recently about a fellow that had a similar solution, except he used a router that also had a phone port on it that dialed out on demand instead of dedicating a computer to the function and having to leave it on to provide network access on demand.


yah I lookedbriefly and did not see a model of that. You find them with road warrior type gear. The idea was to use dial up but still easily hook up 3 or 4 laptops to it. Works for home users as well though who have dial up and don't feel like messing with windows settings.


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

GoHokies! said:


> There was a thread on here recently about a fellow that had a similar solution, except he used a router that also had a phone port on it that dialed out on demand instead of dedicating a computer to the function and having to leave it on to provide network access on demand.


I got one of those - a SMC7004ABR. It is now almost 10 years old and I still use it with my broadband (I don't use the modem port anymore, but I do have a printer hooked to the parallel port).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

bryan314 said:


> What I want to know is why Tivo just doesn't allow me to use my ISP's dialup info directly? Tivo is a computer, with a modem, calling an established ISP. Let me choose the provider.


I could swear in the 'underground' section people have talked about getting their Tivos to connect through a computer over SLIP.. (though computers nowadays don't have serial ports either!)

BTW, I was doing a bit of searching for Turbonet cards on eBay (since I have 2 series 1s and I have a phone line ONLY for the Tivos).. Finally one of the 'clone' auctions I see every once in a while actually mentioned the name of another one: TurboNZet. Looks a bit cheaper, if I trust a currency conversion on the web.

Still will be pretty expensive since I'll also need a 'wireless game adapter' or two HomePlug adapters or something. (I want to get my S3 on the network too.)


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

samo said:


> Good example and solution for your example is a same as for the TiVo service.If nursing home to save money is using catering that doesn't serve lunch anymore, your choice is to move your mother to another nursing home or to pay for lunches out of pocket in addition to what you pay to the nursing home. Same with TiVo service. Either find another provider of DVR service that doesn't require you to use LD, or pay for LD.
> As for TiVo responsibility, terms of service were re-written many years ago when issue first came up. Unfortunately, you agreed to pay for LD if local number is not available. You can't even get out of the commitment in case you want to switch due to loss of local numbers.


Thanks for the compliment on the analogy!
There may be a slight misinterpretation of what I am saying here as far as the "responsibility" goes. I never looked at the TOS and I would have guessed that they never guarenteed a local access number. I am not expecting TiVo to do anything to fix this. The only thing I am really looking for from TiVo is to admit that THEY are responsible for deciding that some people will no longer have a local number instead of saying that they have "no control" over the situation.
Just tell me "Yes, you are correct, we HAVE let this happen to you"


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

jblake said:


> how expensive is long distance these days? Pick an out of state number (because it seems that out of state calls are somehow cheaper than in-state toll calls) and call there. maybe Tivo could give a dollar or two credit for the LD charges.


First of all, using this option in a viable way requires unpluging the phone line and only connecting it periodically unless you want a "cheap" long distance call EVERY DAY. More importantly, you may have missed the fact that some people have lifetime subscriptions so that is a double whammy:
1. When they paid the LS, they thought they were done paying for ANYTHING from that point on.
2. How will TiVo give a dollar or two credit to these people. Reducing a monthly bill is one thing, but I doubt they will send a check for 1 or 2 dollars back every month.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bbonacci said:


> Just tell me "Yes, you are correct, we HAVE let this happen to you"


 well TiVo as much as said that when they said they had no contorl over the numbers and your only option was a toll based number. 

but the main reason I post is to give an option if the phone line is not in an easy to reach place. You can go into settings, then Phone and network and use the menus to switch between phone connection and network connection. While it is set to network connection it will not use the phone for anything, then you will get the nag screen on guide data being low to remind you to make a call and you can go right from that nag screen to the menus and switch the settings to phone line and complete a call. once the call finishses sucessfully then you can switch back to network until the next time.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

What do you pay for long distance now? Have you looked into unlimited long distance plans?


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well TiVo as much as said that when they said they had no contorl over the numbers and your only option was a toll based number.
> 
> but the main reason I post is to give an option if the phone line is not in an easy to reach place. You can go into settings, then Phone and network and use the menus to switch between phone connection and network connection. While it is set to network connection it will not use the phone for anything, then you will get the nag screen on guide data being low to remind you to make a call and you can go right from that nag screen to the menus and switch the settings to phone line and complete a call. once the call finishses sucessfully then you can switch back to network until the next time.


Thank You for that suggestion! That would make that option much less cumbersome!

I MUST disagree 100% with you though on saying that TiVo is saying the same thing as telling me they let this happen. It is very frustrating when you are treated like an idiot just because the vendor will not just come out and say, "Sir, your local number is no longer available. We are aware of this and it is a decision that WE made. We know you are going to be inconvenienced, and we are sorry, but that's the way it is". No one will say that. They keep saying things that they are HOPING I will believe that all sum up to it being something they can not do anything about. By saying they have no control, they are saying it is not their fault. IT IS their fault. It may be an extremely prudent decision on their part (and probably is), but they still have to face up to the decision that they made and simply tell the affected CUSTOMERS what it will mean to them.


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

There are actually only so many dial-up providers, so unless TiVo wants to run their own dial-up network (no), they may not be able to offer phone numbers in the areas previously covered.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

Martin Tupper said:


> What do you pay for long distance now? Have you looked into unlimited long distance plans?


Thanks for the suggestion!
I personally do not have the problem as I do have broadband. I am helping other users, one who has his land line ONLY for TiVo in the first place, and it does not even have long distance, so the answer to your question is $0.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

alansh said:


> There are actually only so many dial-up providers, so unless TiVo wants to run their own dial-up network (no), they may not be able to offer phone numbers in the areas previously covered.


Once again, I understand the situation, but it is still a change in the level of service and it IS TiVo's responsibility. I certainly agree that it would probably not be cost effective for TiVo to do something about it (but they can always use a toll free number....that option was just working for us until 2 weeks ago). The only thing I am saying here is that they need to step up and admit what they did (or in this case - didn't do). What they didn't do is come up with a way to continue to provide the level of service that many customers previously experienced. Maybe this will help people understand the severity of what happened. In my area code here is what just happened:

*Still Active:*
Brookside
Lords Valley
Loyalsock
Middleburg
Scranton
Trout Run
Wilkes-Barre

*Disconnected:*
Danville
Elysburg
Hazleton
Lock Haven
Milton
Mount Pleasant Mills
Nesquehoning
Pottsville
Selinsgrove
Shenendoah
Stroudsburg
Williamsport

I personally know 4 other people that were affected and they are all in one city, but with all of those numbers eliminated, they had to affect at least 100's of customers.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bbonacci said:


> Thank You for that suggestion! That would make that option much less cumbersome!
> 
> I MUST disagree 100% with you though on saying that TiVo is saying the same thing as telling me they let this happen. .


Thats cool. I had my say on it and you responded quite rationally with your thoughts. Diversity is what makes this forum so useful. BTW - welcome to the forum and again my sympathies for the hassles your friends are being made to deal with


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

bbonacci said:


> Thanks for the suggestion!
> I personally do not have the problem as I do have broadband. I am helping other users, one who has his land line ONLY for TiVo in the first place, and it does not even have long distance, so the answer to your question is $0.


Is satellite an option for your friend? By the time he pays for the land line he doesn't need, long distance access fees and long distance charges, he could have satellite programming and DVR fees included. Satellite companies DVRs are very good. Some users (like myself) prefer them to TiVo. If his TiVo is lifetime, he can sell it on ebay or if it is monthly then saving is even greater.


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## [NG]Owner (Dec 19, 2006)

Or, check into this:

WRT54G3G-ST

And Sprint EVDO coverage!

[NG]Owner


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

I feel the pain. Right now I'm in school and we have broadband but back at home we're on dialup. We still live close to the metro area so there are plenty of local numbers, but I know what it's like to have dialup only.

For those who have no other option than dialup and don't want to resort to disconnecting the phone every day, have you looked into alternative long distance and local telephone plans? At home we have Bellsouth unlimited everything. Basically unlimited calls anywhere in the US and Canada and it's $80 a month. There are competing plans that have the same thing for $40, which we're about to switch to. Something like that might be something to look into. Long distance is so dirt cheap these days I'm sure you can find a plan that would save you money.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

bbonacci said:


> Thanks for the suggestion!
> I personally do not have the problem as I do have broadband. I am helping other users, one who has his land line ONLY for TiVo in the first place, and it does not even have long distance, so the answer to your question is $0.


How about extended local calling plans??


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## rambler (Dec 3, 2005)

bbonacci said:


> Scranton


Do you know the Shrutes? Beet farmers near you.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

parzec said:


> Wireless/Broadband doesn't help Series 1 users on unmodded machines. Perhaps a prelude to TiVo completely abandoning Series 1 users? I think Tivo really needs to step up and allow free transfer of Series 1 lifetimes to newer units -- it just makes sense.


Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it my understanding that if you own an Series 1 with lifetime service you are "grandfather" and can still transfer to a new TiVo box. Check your account and see.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Johncv said:


> Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it my understanding that if you own an Series 1 with lifetime service you are "grandfather" and can still transfer to a new TiVo box. Check your account and see.


This applies only if you purchased lifetime before January 20, 2000.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

samo said:


> Is satellite an option for your friend? By the time he pays for the land line he doesn't need, long distance access fees and long distance charges, he could have satellite programming and DVR fees included. Satellite companies DVRs are very good. Some users (like myself) prefer them to TiVo. If his TiVo is lifetime, he can sell it on ebay or if it is monthly then saving is even greater.


Great Suggestion! I myself have satellite which is why I am not in much of a bind. I have 3 DVRs. One is an R15 which needs no phone call, one is a DirecTivo which does want to call, but it does not need to call for program guide info, so I will probably do the periodic long distance call with that one, and one is a Series 2 which is not connected to my satellite, but I have that one updating thru my network. I am not paying for the Series 2, I am using free TiVo basic.

I am going to have to suggest this to my buddy, BUT he has a lifetime subscription on a Series 2 so he will have to try and sell it with the LS hoping to get most of his money back. It is only 1.5 years old, so he didn't make much of his money back on the LS.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

jblake said:


> I feel the pain. Right now I'm in school and we have broadband but back at home we're on dialup. We still live close to the metro area so there are plenty of local numbers, but I know what it's like to have dialup only.
> 
> For those who have no other option than dialup and don't want to resort to disconnecting the phone every day, have you looked into alternative long distance and local telephone plans? At home we have Bellsouth unlimited everything. Basically unlimited calls anywhere in the US and Canada and it's $80 a month. There are competing plans that have the same thing for $40, which we're about to switch to. Something like that might be something to look into. Long distance is so dirt cheap these days I'm sure you can find a plan that would save you money.


I already responded to a simular suggestion about this. This person is probably paying under $20 now for a land line with no long distance. He only has it for TiVo. He uses a cell for everything else. Even the $40 unlimited plan you speak of would still be an unworkable option. He would still be better off controling the LD calls (maybe 4 a month).


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

[NG]Owner said:


> Or, check into this:
> 
> WRT54G3G-ST
> 
> ...


Interesting suggestion, but the user does not have sprint cell service, so he would have to:
1. Wait for his current cell contract to run out.
2. Switch to Sprint and probably get a new phone (usually free or close to it, I know)
3. Buy that router and that wireless card.
4. Possibly pay additional fees for the cell plan to get the internet access.

Probably not workable, but thanks anyway.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

rambler said:


> Do you know the Shrutes? Beet farmers near you.


Thank You for the excellent comic relief. Yes, I do watch The Office and Scranton is about 1 hour from here.
ALSO, I love your avatar. It is THAT GUY, from 9/11 picture right before the plane crash fame!

THANKS!


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

Martin Tupper said:


> How about extended local calling plans??


I guess I do not get what you are saying. This guy is spending probably $20 on a local no long distance phone line. He has not need for LD on this line. I am guessing there is something he can do where his local calling area is extended to where one of the numbers is local to him. How much do these plans usually cost?

Thanks for your consideration in this matter!!!!!


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

Johncv said:


> Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it my understanding that if you own an Series 1 with lifetime service you are "grandfather" and can still transfer to a new TiVo box. Check your account and see.


No, it is not a Series 1. Two people I know have Series 2's Less than two years old with LS.

Thanks for the suggestion!


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Thats cool. I had my say on it and you responded quite rationally with your thoughts. Diversity is what makes this forum so useful. BTW - welcome to the forum and again my sympathies for the hassles your friends are being made to deal with


You have been very helpful and I appreciate your paying attention to this issue!!!!


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

bbonacci said:


> I guess I do not get what you are saying. This guy is spending probably $20 on a local no long distance phone line. He has not need for LD on this line. I am guessing there is something he can do where his local calling area is extended to where one of the numbers is local to him. How much do these plans usually cost?
> 
> Thanks for your consideration in this matter!!!!!


Exactly. You pay a little extra to have a larger local calling area. So hopefully, at least one of the remaining 570 dial-in numbers would be a local call.

How much $$ depends on the provider. From whom does he get his phone service?


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I got a box that connects to my cellphone by bluetooth and provides a regular phone jack. You could get one of these (a little pricey) and hook the TiVo to it. You could also connect some cordless phones and do what I do -- use my cell phone as my main phone line, while still having several handsets aroud the house.

Here's a link to the unit I bought. They have less expensive models for other phones (that don't require bluetooth to connect, just a cable.)


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Cellphone connections do not work for modems such as the TiVo uses. There are too many delays, phase shifts and narrow frequency response.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I tested it. It works. It also works with my fax machine.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> There was a thread on here recently about a fellow that had a similar solution, except he used a router that also had a phone port on it that dialed out on demand instead of dedicating a computer to the function and having to leave it on to provide network access on demand.


old smc barricade routers had that ability.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

stevel said:


> Cellphone connections do not work for modems such as the TiVo uses. There are too many delays, phase shifts and narrow frequency response.


I've done it in the past on other modem devices.

but you are severaly limited to speed. It was many years ago and actually it was new at the time (the phone I had was a brick of a qualcomm and I actually had a qualcomm engineer work with me for days to get it to work on sprint.

If I recall we finally figuired out you have to get down to 14.4 (or maybe it was 9600 since faxe's work?). Not just on the tivo end but the POP's modem has to like that too.

It's been years but if I recall there are some POP numbers that dont even go that low- (that's why I had problems and qualcom and sprint were involved) when I used it i found a couple that worked like 90 minutes away from home and since you get free LD on cell phones I just used the same numbers no matter where I was in the country.

(I'd guess that they figure a 14.4 connection must just be a bad connection so they dump you assuming you will call right back and hook in at 28,33, or more and then vacate the line twice as fast)


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## Joe Smith (Aug 1, 2003)

bbonacci said:


> Thay are saying they have no control over the numbers????!?!?!?!


That is correct. TiVo does not own any dial-up numbers, none at all. The phone numbers belonged to MCI before Verizon took them over.

If the numbers you have been using are on their list (http://www.verizonbusiness.com/about/network/pops/index.xml?popsCtry=USA) then you can complain to Verizon about the reduced coverage.


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## [NG]Owner (Dec 19, 2006)

bbonacci said:


> Interesting suggestion, but the user does not have sprint cell service, so he would have to:
> 1. Wait for his current cell contract to run out.
> 2. Switch to Sprint and probably get a new phone (usually free or close to it, I know)
> 3. Buy that router and that wireless card.
> ...


The EVDO service is not dependent on a cell phone. It's stand alone. For the cost of the router (~$220) and the cost of the service itself (~$80 per month) and the cost of the card ($50 with a term commitment), not only do you have a solution to the TiVo calling in, but also house-wide internet for all your computers/devices.

http://www.sprint.com/business/products/offers/offerHighSpeed_byProduct.html

The key is to be in an EVDO enabled area. And this will help you determine whether you are: http://www.sprint.com/business/products/products/coverageInformation.jsp

[NG]Owner


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

A quick google found this appliance that will support a wireless home network with dial up internet access.









http://www.wiflyer.com/StoreFront.bok


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

Joe Smith said:


> That is correct. TiVo does not own any dial-up numbers, none at all. The phone numbers belonged to MCI before Verizon took them over.
> 
> If the numbers you have been using are on their list (http://www.verizonbusiness.com/about/network/pops/index.xml?popsCtry=USA) then you can complain to Verizon about the reduced coverage.


It would have been nice if you read the whole discussion. You are 100% WRONG. If Verizon reduced their coverage, it IS NOT my place to call them! TiVo is paying for the service that Verizon reduced. TiVo has that service to service THEIR customers. When Verizon reduces the value of the service to TiVo it is TiVo's problem to resolve. In the mean time, it is TiVo's responsibility to explain to the customers that are being denied a local number that they are being affected and then to either do something about it or NOT do something about it, but it is their responsibility!

If you go to a restaurant and get a horrible steak and complain about it, would you accept the chef telling you that the steak being bad is the fault of the distributor they buy from and that you should complain to them???????


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

[NG]Owner said:


> The EVDO service is not dependent on a cell phone. It's stand alone. For the cost of the router (~$220) and the cost of the service itself (~$80 per month) and the cost of the card ($50 with a term commitment), not only do you have a solution to the TiVo calling in, but also house-wide internet for all your computers/devices.
> 
> http://www.sprint.com/business/products/offers/offerHighSpeed_byProduct.html
> 
> ...


I appreciate that you are trying to help. You are off topic. The user does not have high speed internet and does not want it. Yes, I have, and many other people have Broadband, but you are solving a problem for yourself, not this user. TiVo's are for watching TV which does not require an internet connection, nor should it. So what you are saying is "Hey, this guy can solve his problem AND get Broadband for $80/month".

He can get long distance on his phone line and let the toll calls happen and still spend less than THAT.

Thanks, but no thanks.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> A quick google found this appliance that will support a wireless home network with dial up internet access.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great little device. That is definitely a possible solution.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

BTW, I have alerted TiVo staffers to this problem. I have not heard any news about it.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

stevel said:


> BTW, I have alerted TiVo staffers to this problem. I have not heard any news about it.


And there, my good friends, is the REAL issue. Stevel posted this over a week ago.
Stevel - Thank You for alerting the TiVo staffers.
Unless TiVo is working on a solution and is not ready to make any statements yet, the least they could do is say "Yes, all of those numbers were disconnected, we are aware of it, and here are your choices to resolve the issue.........." (all of which by the way will cost money for some of us)

Instead, we are getting silence.
I guess they are counting on the new consumer mindset which is mostly born out of not understanding techology, and accepting anything that inconviences them because they don't know enough to do anything but buy something new, or change what they have, or start doing something differently because "they" said you have to.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

By the way, I have been remiss in telling everyone what TiVo's official statement is on this. This is from their website:
********************************************************
On March 1st, providers of some of our local dial-in numbers reduced the list of available local numbers. 

If you get a notice that you are running out of guide data on your TiVo DVR or notice that your daily calls are failing, you can ensure uninterrupted service by doing one of the following: 

- Choose a new dial-in number. Press the TiVo button on your remote control, from the TiVo Central menu select Messages & Settings, Settings, Phone & Network, Change phone or network settings, then Phone Settings. If after selecting a new dial-in number you are still unable to make successful calls, please visit customersupport.tivo.com for further phone access troubleshooting tips. 

OR 

- Connect your TiVo(R) Series2(tm) or Series3(tm) box to your wired or wireless home network. (It's easy!) You'll find the step-by-step instructions at TiVo.com/getready. 

Don't forget: Connecting through broadband means you'll be able to enjoy even more cool TiVo features, including video downloads, Internet radio, podcasts, local weather & traffic and more, all included as part of the standard TiVo service fee. 
**************************************
While this seems to be a nice comprehensive statement, there are many things missing.
1. A list of numbers that have been disconnected. See earlier in this thread to see how many numbers were cancelled in just one area code. This would eliminate the need to keep doing trial and error to see which numbers are working. A side note to this is that when you enter the area code and have TiVo go out to get the "available" numbers, it still comes back with ALL the numbers including the disconnected ones. That should be something easily fixed.
2. This statement does not address the severity of this issue by any means. It does not offer any apology or acknowledgement of how drastically this can affect some customers.
a. long distance charges DAILY (unless you play games to limit the calls)
OR
b. Installing and paying monthly fees for broadband internet and buying a wireless router and USB module (and purchasing one that works with the TiVo as only certain ones do).

I am always inclined to come up with analogies, probably to the point of being obnoxious, but here goes.

You go out to your car in the morning and there is a note on the windshield saying "In order to continue to use your car in the manner you are accustomed, you will have to start depositing a quarter in a slot on the dash every day or subscribe to a service for around $30-$40 a month and purchase some additional equipment. AND, If you subscribe to that service, you will get some "cool new features""


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bbonacci said:


> You go out to your car in the morning and there is a note on the windshield saying "In order to continue to use your car in the manner you are accustomed, you will have to start depositing a quarter in a slot on the dash every day or subscribe to a service for around $30-$40 a month and purchase some additional equipment. AND, If you subscribe to that service, you will get some "cool new features""


would it not be more like - Gas resellers have decided to shut down the gas statiojns in your area. Please refer to map for the current nearest gas station or see these directions on how to switch to ethanol


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## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> would it not be more like - Gas resellers have decided to shut down the gas statiojns in your area. Please refer to map for the current nearest gas station or see these directions on how to switch to ethanol


How about: Gas resellers has decided to stop providing gas to you local _Mobil _station and only _Mobil _has the key to your tank. Please refer to map for the current nearest _Mobil _station or see these directions on how to switch to ethanol.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

That's ETHERnol.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

serious question- not trying to be a jerk- but how much did you friend pay for the box? If he's like the average person it's probably not all that much. 

Actually I guess individual amounts dont really matter- the big picture is that most people didn't pay all that much compared to the costs that tivo has.

I am not one to know much about the financials really- but I'm under the impression that tivo would probably be better off to let such customers rot (for lack of better terms) then to some how pay for more dial up numbers or an 800 number. I really don't know at all how to figure what the "cost" of service is to them compared to the monthly fee or how much extra it costs them to set up an alternate dial up provider or 800 service. But I'm just under the impression from the threads here that the extra it would cost for that would keep them from ever breaking even on the box.

their new mentality certainly seems to be that subsidizing individual boxes in order to build critical mass is no longer necessary.

If that's the case- I honestly don't know that they have a good answer. What would they say? "we know we are screwing some of our customers by choosing not to spend extra per month on them so that we don't incur any more red ink- we're sorry that is our decision- but screw off." LOL

I guess they could state that anyone negatively effected can be let out of any commitment they have. But I suppose they don't want to hang that out there in the hopes many just stay as you described above. But I'd still hope that anyone that called who had their number removed would be allowed to leave)

Doesn't make it right but i think that's pretty much the reality.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> would it not be more like - Gas resellers have decided to shut down the gas statiojns in your area. Please refer to map for the current nearest gas station or see these directions on how to switch to ethanol


NICE!!!!

Thank you! I love a good analogy. This one is great because you can still get gas, you just have to travel to get it (which costs you in more gas), or a more expensive retro fitting of the ethanol (which was never explained to you as a possiblity you may need in the future, when you bought your car.)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bbonacci said:


> NICE!!!!
> 
> Thank you! I love a good analogy. This one is great because you can still get gas, you just have to travel to get it (which costs you in more gas), or a more expensive retro fitting of the ethanol (which was never explained to you as a possiblity you may need in the future, when you bought your car.)


and unfortunately it would cost the car maker a lot of moeny to build some gas stations nearby and if they were not reselling the gas but just including it in the original cost then it would put them out of business


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> serious question- not trying to be a jerk- but how much did you friend pay for the box? If he's like the average person it's probably not all that much.
> 
> Actually I guess individual amounts dont really matter- the big picture is that most people didn't pay all that much compared to the costs that tivo has.
> 
> ...


I am not trying to be a jerk either, but you probably should have read thru more of this discussion. 
You missed two important points.
One point is that it may very well be financially prudent for TiVo to let some numbers die considering the subscription fee. This was already said (I know because I said it), but they have to properly explain to those people that they have done this and not say things like "We do not have ANY control over this".
The second and much more important point that you missed is that these people have paid for a lifetime subscription. So there will be no "letting them out of their commitment". Well, I guess I am wrong on that. TiVo would be MORE THAN GLAD to let these customers out of their lifetime subscription commitment. The only commitment that can be terminated in this situation, is the commitment that TiVo has to the customer who paid all at once, in good faith, for what they thought was a subscription that covers the life of the unit.
Teminate those subscriptions and now TiVo collected $600 total from 2 of my friends less than 1 and 1/2 years ago, so in a sense TiVo got over $16 per month per person. Some discount!

Thanks for stopping by and commenting anyway.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Get rid of Dial up connection and go Broadband and Network setup.

You will see a Big difference


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## rich (Mar 18, 2002)

bbonacci said:


> 1. A list of numbers that have been disconnected. See earlier in this thread to see how many numbers were cancelled in just one area code. This would eliminate the need to keep doing trial and error to see which numbers are working. A side note to this is that when you enter the area code and have TiVo go out to get the "available" numbers, it still comes back with ALL the numbers including the disconnected ones. That should be something easily fixed.


The following site shows which numbers are currently active:

List of Verizon Business PoPs


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and unfortunately it would cost the car maker a lot of moeny to build some gas stations nearby and if they were not reselling the gas but just including it in the original cost then it would put them out of business


Whoops! I thought I agreed with you on this. I didn't realize you were defending TiVo's actions here. I didn't realize you were going so far with the analogy that that the car maker is the one that is telling you the gas stations shut down and that they can not afford to build thier own stations.
In order to make this analogy more accurate, when the people purchased the car, they would have had to pay one fee up front for all the gas they can ever need as long as the car is still working, and there would have had to be many gas stations to choose from when the purchase was made that all went away, AND within less than two years. Also, one thing we are all (myself including) forgetting about this analogy is that the car manufacturer would not have to build a gas station in the area if they were able to provide a "toll free number" (can't think of anything for that to keep the analogy going). So TiVo does not have to set up a local dial up facility (as has been suggested back in the thread).

Please understand that if these people had purchased lifetimes 6 years ago, I would not be spending my time ranting about this. Six years ($249 which was the old lifetime rate if I remember correctly) means they would end up having paid $3.50 a month. That IS a deal. 
By the way, I do realize that a lifetime sub (as in with satellite radio) IS a gamble, but the gamble is that the company may go out of business, NOT that they may decide to let a select few "rot" and you may be one of those few.

The very least TiVo can do here is provide the toll free number to the units that are registered in areas where a local number was disconnected until their subscription costs even out to $12.95 month. In this case, it would only take until about the end of '07. Hardly a bankrupting proposition...........


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

bbonacci said:


> Whoops! I thought I agreed with you on this. I didn't realize you were defending TiVo's actions here. I didn't realize you were going so far with the analogy that that the car maker is the one that is telling you the gas stations shut down and that they can not afford to build thier own stations.
> In order to make this analogy more accurate, when the people purchased the car, they would have had to pay one fee up front for all the gas they can ever need as long as the car is still working, and there would have had to be many gas stations to choose from when the purchase was made that all went away, AND within less than two years.


We're mixing up our analogies here. The "gas" in this isn't the TiVo service. It's the phone service. TiVo never promised lifetime "gas". They promised free maintenance to keep your car running. Your local service station closed. Now it will cost more for "gas" to get to the service station in the next town over.



bbonacci said:


> Also, one thing we are all (myself including) forgetting about this analogy is that the car manufacturer would not have to build a gas station in the area if they were able to provide a "toll free number" (can't think of anything for that to keep the analogy going). So TiVo does not have to set up a local dial up facility (as has been suggested back in the thread).


But the manufacturer doesn't have to give you a gas card ("toll free number"). They never promised to pay the costs to get you to the service station, that has always been your responsibility (it just used to be cheaper).



bbonacci said:


> Please understand that if these people had purchased lifetimes 6 years ago, I would not be spending my time ranting about this. Six years ($249 which was the old lifetime rate if I remember correctly) means they would end up having paid $3.50 a month. That IS a deal.
> By the way, I do realize that a lifetime sub (as in with satellite radio) IS a gamble, but the gamble is that the company may go out of business, NOT that they may decide to let a select few "rot" and you may be one of those few.


It's not that TiVo let you "rot". It is that Verizon decided that nineteen PoP's in your region didn't make business sense, and not enough of TiVo's customers are in the same boat that your friends are.



bbonacci said:


> The very least TiVo can do here is provide the toll free number to the units that are registered in areas where a local number was disconnected until their subscription costs even out to $12.95 month. In this case, it would only take until about the end of '07. Hardly a bankrupting proposition...........


Why? TiVo doesn't guarantee a local number for their monthly, yearly, or prepaid customers either. Or should TiVo subsidize the cost of everyone's phones?

I do sympathize with your predicament, but the truth is that you & your friends may have to rethink their phone/internet services. TiVo/Verizon allowed you to get by "on the cheap" when they paid to maintain a local PoP number. Now that there isn't a local PoP number, the cheapest phone service might not be the best value for you. A regional calling plan, broadband, or even dialup with this gadget might make more sense now.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bbonacci said:


> Whoops! I thought I agreed with you on this. I didn't realize you were defending TiVo's actions here. I didn't realize you were going so far with the analogy that that the car maker is the one that is telling you the gas stations shut down and that they can not afford to build thier own stations....


well I was just taking it out a bit further. Yes, the car maker had agreed on gas for the lifetime of the car and gave you a special card to present at major gas stations. Then all the major gas stations closed down near you for lack of business. Was local access in the terms? I actually do not know. Again, I do sympathize and I would not be happy to be in that spot either. I have given any helpful advice I could and would also be asking why could TiVo not give access to the toll free number in such cases. Maybe my last advice is to contact TiVo more directly and further up the chain than a CSR


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bbonacci said:


> I am not trying to be a jerk either, but you probably should have read thru more of this discussion.
> You missed two important points.
> One point is that it may very well be financially prudent for TiVo to let some numbers die considering the subscription fee. This was already said (I know because I said it), but they have to properly explain to those people that they have done this and not say things like "We do not have ANY control over this".
> The second and much more important point that you missed is that these people have paid for a lifetime subscription. So there will be no "letting them out of their commitment". Well, I guess I am wrong on that. TiVo would be MORE THAN GLAD to let these customers out of their lifetime subscription commitment. The only commitment that can be terminated in this situation, is the commitment that TiVo has to the customer who paid all at once, in good faith, for what they thought was a subscription that covers the life of the unit.
> ...


I missed the second point about lifetime- they should give those guys 800 access or refund the lifetime or something. That's just not right. There's an implication when you buy lifetime that they will support you to that level (maybe not better but no worse) for as long as they are in business.

But I totally got your first point that you think they should explain themselves. And myt point was I think they might have made a conscious decision not too. (and agian not that it's right- but i think they KNOW exactly what they are doing)


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

wolflord11 said:


> Get rid of Dial up connection and go Broadband and Network setup.
> 
> You will see a Big difference


REALLY??

No comment except - Please read the discussion (or at least SOME of it) before commenting.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> I missed the second point about lifetime- they should give those guys 800 access or refund the lifetime or something. That's just not right. There's an implication when you buy lifetime that they will support you to that level (maybe not better but no worse) for as long as they are in business.
> 
> But I totally got your first point that you think they should explain themselves. And myt point was I think they might have made a conscious decision not too. (and agian not that it's right- but i think they KNOW exactly what they are doing)


Glad you are on the same page.
Thanks again for contributing!!!!


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

rich said:


> The following site shows which numbers are currently active:
> 
> List of Verizon Business PoPs


I have already listed in this thread the numbers that are still working and the ones that are not working for my area code.

I am nost sure what you were responding to here, but don't you think that users should be able to find out right on their TiVo which numbers work?

Thanks for the info!


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## rich (Mar 18, 2002)

bbonacci said:


> I have already listed in this thread the numbers that are still working and the ones that are not working for my area code.
> 
> I am nost sure what you were responding to here, but don't you think that users should be able to find out right on their TiVo which numbers work?
> 
> Thanks for the info!


Yes, it would be better if TiVo would only show the active numbers. I just didn't know how you arrived at your list of active numbers. Did you use the Verizon Business site or another method?


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

I agree that they should update their lists to show only the current active numbers. But I don't see any options that wouldn't break TiVo's bank.

They could run their own dial-in network, pay Verizon or Qwest to run the old numbers, or allow use of an 800 number. Any of those options would cost them a ton of money. Dial-up is dying, and if the numbers were disconnected you may have been the only user. I suppose they could bill you the monthly cost of operating the POP.

With the exception of some very early subscribers that could use an 800 number, TiVo has been very explicit that any long distance charges are your responsibility and have not promised a local number will be available in any particular area.

When TiVo says it's out of their control, I assume they mean beyond a reasonable remedy. They could pay $20 a month to keep your service going, but they (obviously) aren't going to do it.

Because of the costs of the alternatives, these numbers aren't coming back. You can either use one of the workarounds (cheap phone card or long distance, connect via Turbonet or Series 2/3 ethernet), or give up.

If you have a practical (i.e., no more cost to TiVo than what they were paying) I'm sure they'd be willing to consider it.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

You can try these guys. http://www.pioneertelephone.net
2.7 cents a minute, no monthly minimum. Figure 5-10 minutes a day, about 200 minutes a month tops. Will add $5-6 to your monthly bill, if that much.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

alansh said:


> They could run their own dial-in network, pay Verizon or Qwest to run the old numbers, or allow use of an 800 number. ...
> 
> ...With the exception of some very early subscribers that could use an 800 number ...


Last time I checked, (2 years ago), my Humax DRT 800 still had a couple of free dial in numbers in it's database.


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## grieny (Jul 10, 2007)

It is sad. This country was made on providing products and now services in a reliable, honestly represented manner. Today, it is cut costs and services where you can. Screw the customer (especially if he is long term committed). So long as the bottom line looks good for the short term. 

Call TiVo sales department, pretend you are going to buy a unit. They will tell you that the entire country has local phone service. I called on four occassions and was told the same thing each time. 

When you represent a product to have a certain level of service; then you cut that service because you can, you lose favor as a reputable business. TiVo is not providing the service they represented to me when I purchased three different units (all still working with long distance phone connections). Oh, It is probably in the fine print on the contract; but, the salesman didn't mention that the local numbers may be eliminated based on TiVo's wish to save money in lieu of providing the contracted service. Shame on you TiVo.

People think that I am some hillbilly, remotely located and probably the only TiVo user on those local numbers. The local number they cancelled could service about 40,000 potential customers???


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

The problem is that most of those 40,000 also have access to some sort of fast internet too, so they don't need to use dialup.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

grieny said:


> It is sad. This country was made on providing products and now services in a reliable, honestly represented manner. Today, it is cut costs and services where you can. Screw the customer (especially if he is long term committed). So long as the bottom line looks good for the short term.


so say there are 10 subscribers using the number. say it costs Tivo 120 a month to keep the number working. (just making up numbers here) should TiVo keep that number going for some long term benefit?

actually back further in this thread it is discussed that TiVo contracts for the local number with some dial up provider. Bottom line, dial up is disappearing and there is no way for TiVo to afford building out its own phone service.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

alansh said:


> The problem is that most of those 40,000 also have access to some sort of fast internet too, so they don't need to use dialup.


I started this thread and haven't visited it for while. I came back to update everyone on the situation, but first, I want to comment on this post.

I am glad the person who posted this lives in one of those areas where fast internet is free!!! It hasn't reached our area yet. C'mon people we are talking about a TV viewing/recording service here. I know that this person surely has fast internet and is glad they do, but there is no connection between wanting a TV recording service and having or wanting fast internet. If you do not have it for some other reason, getting broadband just to take care of this issue is not very cost effective.

A lot has been said, but let me remind everyone of this. It is not about how to solve the local number removal issue. It is not about how to find some crafty way around it. There are plenty of good (and bad) suggestions here.
It is simply about ONE THING. TiVo not owning up to the responsiblity of this reduced service. Before you try to defend TiVo on this issue, know this.

All of this happened in May of 07. Just TODAY (8/28/2007), I let my TiVo go out to the service to check for available numbers in my area code. It dialed out and came back with ALL of the numbers that used to work. A recap on that, there were 27 local numbers in my area code representing 19 cities. Of those 19 cities only 7 remain.
OK let's forget about TiVo owning up to their responsiblity!! HOW MUCH TROUBLE COULD IT POSSIBLY BE TO UPDATE THIS LIST TO ONLY RETURN THE ACTIVE NUMBERS??????? (and yes, I was yelling).


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

bbonacci said:


> I started this thread and haven't visited it for while. I came back to update everyone on the situation, but first, I want to comment on this post.
> 
> I am glad the person who posted this lives in one of those areas where fast internet is free!!! It hasn't reached our area yet.


Phone service isn't free either. You have to pay for phone service. Paying for the absolute cheapest phone service that you can find may mean that calls made to outside of your immediate locality are billed as long distance calls. This is called being penny wise and pound foolish.



bbonacci said:


> C'mon people we are talking about a here. I know that this person surely has fast internet and is glad they do, but there is no connection between wanting a TV recording service and having or wanting fast internet. If you do not have it for some other reason, getting broadband just to take care of this issue is not very cost effective.


Nor is there a connection between a TV viewing/recording service and a local phone number.



bbonacci said:


> A lot has been said, but let me remind everyone of this. It is not about how to solve the local number removal issue. It is not about how to find some crafty way around it. There are plenty of good (and bad) suggestions here.
> It is simply about ONE THING. TiVo not owning up to the responsiblity of this reduced service. Before you try to defend TiVo on this issue, know this.


But it is a level of service TiVo never promised. TiVo never guaranteed local calling numbers. They have always maintained that tolls may apply and are the responsibility of the subscriber.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Martin Tupper said:


> But it is a level of service TiVo never promised. TiVo never guaranteed local calling numbers. They have *always* maintained that tolls may apply and are the responsibility of the subscriber.


Not always. In good old times if local number was not available, TiVo was providing 800 number. Then this got changed to what it is now (people using 800 numbers were grandfathered).
I wonder if it is legal for TiVo to disconnect local phone numbers but enforce commitment terms and penalties. One would think that commitment goes both ways and if original level of service is not provided, customer should be able to cancel the service without the penalty.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

samo said:


> Not always. In good old times if local number was not available, TiVo was providing 800 number. Then this got changed to what it is now (people using 800 numbers were grandfathered).
> I wonder if it is legal for TiVo to disconnect local phone numbers but enforce commitment terms and penalties. One would think that commitment goes both ways and if original level of service is not provided, customer should be able to cancel the service without the penalty.


As long as they don't guarantee a local or toll free number, it's legal.

Under the current Service Agreement it appears they don't:


[URL=https://www3.tivo.com/abouttivo/policies/tivoserviceagreement.html]TiVo[/URL] said:


> 10. Telephone Access and Possible Charges. The TiVo service is accessed through a standard telephone line and is available as a local call in most areas. *In some areas, local and long- distance toll charges may apply.* The TiVo service may also be available through the Internet with a broadband connection. However, TiVo does not make any assurances about the availability or functionality of the TiVo service over a broadband connection. Firewall protection is strongly advised for any broadband Internet connections to protect your TiVo DVR from viruses and other harmful things. *You are responsible for any telephone or broadband service charges incurred as a result of using or accessing the TiVo service and acknowledge and agree that you will be solely responsible for all disputes with any telephone company or Internet service provider related to the same.*


But even if they did allow people to drop their service penalty free, that wouldn't help the OP who has lifetime service. Sure he could drop his service, but he wouldn't get any money back.

The reality is that dial-up access is becoming less and less popular every day. That means it is becoming less and less profitable every day. Service providers (Verizon) must evaluate which numbers are profitable and which ones aren't. The unprofitable one's get dumped.

Ideally, TiVo should allow customers to use their own dial-up ISP's to access the TiVo service. Realistically, the number of customers affected by this phenomenon is relatively small, and as such, does not garner a great deal of attention.


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## bbonacci (Nov 30, 2006)

Hello Martin!!

Your comments and attention to this issue are appreciated. 
First I will address to the free internet vs. phone service thing. People already have phone lines. Some day, everyone will have high speed internet, but that is not the case yet. Since people already have phone service, you can not compare ADDING internet service to already existing phone service.

And YES, I know TiVo can do this and that they are not doing anything illegal. I never said that they were doing anything actionable. You are beating a dead horse and it seems you do not get the point of my posts. I already said all I was looking for was for TiVo to admit that THEY (NOT NEGOTIABLE) are responsible for this change which has affected customers. Maybe you thought when I was saying they need to admit responsibility, that I was implying they had to do something about it. I am not looking for TiVo to spend any money to set up their own dial up network (as some have suggested) or do anything for that matter, except admit what they LET happen. I realize they are in business and have said several times in this thread that what happened makes PERFECT SENSE and I would probably do the same thing, BUT I would tell my customers what I was letting happen and what if anything (or nothing) I was going to do about it. I would not try to act like I have no control over this change in service. I would tell them that I decided not to continue to provide it (800 number for instance), but I would not try to pretend that it is someone else's fault (Verizon) and that there is nothing I could do about it.
You keep acting like I am saying TiVo has to fix this and then explaining why it is not prudent for them to fix it. If you can find any of my posts that say that TiVo has to FIX this, please show me and I will admit that I am being inconsistant.

Finally, I think it is interesting that you spent so much time trying to debate my other points and COMPLETELY ignored the main one which was that you can still go out and have the service poll for available numbers and return a list that has been 75% incorrect for over three months now.

Any thoughts on that????


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

bbonacci said:


> OK let's forget about TiVo owning up to their responsiblity!! HOW MUCH TROUBLE COULD IT POSSIBLY BE TO UPDATE THIS LIST TO ONLY RETURN THE ACTIVE NUMBERS??????? (and yes, I was yelling).


That's actually a violation of their service agreement. So sue them.

Incidentally, the agreement says they can cut off broadband access to their service at any time. You think people would get angry if they did that instead?


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

bbonacci said:


> Hello Martin!!
> 
> Your comments and attention to this issue are appreciated.
> First I will address to the free internet vs. phone service thing. People already have phone lines. Some day, everyone will have high speed internet, but that is not the case yet. Since *people already have phone service*, you can not compare ADDING internet service to already existing phone service.


That's a mighty big assumption there. With the advent of cell phones (and VOIP), there is an ever-increasing number of people who do not have traditional land-line telephones in their homes.

Just like internet service, traditional phone service is something that the home owner must make the decision whether (and how much) to pay for. Just like internet service, paying for the absolute cheapest phone service means that your service (eg your toll-free calling area) is somewhat limited. But, you get what you pay for.



bbonacci said:


> And YES, I know TiVo can do this and that they are not doing anything illegal. I never said that they were doing anything actionable. You are beating a dead horse and it seems you do not get the point of my posts. I already said all I was looking for was for TiVo to admit that THEY (NOT NEGOTIABLE) are responsible for this change which has affected customers.


How so? They don't maintain the dial-up numbers. They contract with other companies to do that. I believe they use Verizon. If Verizon decides to stop servicing those numbers, how is that TiVo's fault? Honest question: What other companies offer that service nationwide that TiVo can use?



bbonacci said:


> Maybe you thought when I was saying they need to admit responsibility, that I was implying they had to do something about it. I am not looking for TiVo to spend any money to set up their own dial up network (as some have suggested) or do anything for that matter, except admit what they LET happen.


The list of parties that weren't responsible for the change and let it happen is pretty large ,don't you think? But if it makes you feel any better, yes, TiVo is on that list.



bbonacci said:


> I realize they are in business and have said several times in this thread that what happened makes PERFECT SENSE and I would probably do the same thing, BUT I would tell my customers what I was letting happen and what if anything (or nothing) I was going to do about it. I would not try to act like I have no control over this change in service. I would tell them that I decided not to continue to provide it (800 number for instance), but I would not try to pretend that it is someone else's fault (Verizon) and that there is nothing I could do about it.


We're talking about two separate issues; the discontinuation of your local numbers and the discontinuation of the 800 numbers. While the latter was clearly TiVo's decision, the former wasn't.



bbonacci said:


> You keep acting like I am saying TiVo has to fix this and then explaining why it is not prudent for them to fix it. If you can find any of my posts that say that TiVo has to FIX this, please show me and I will admit that I am being inconsistant.


The apparent inconsistency that I notice is that before you wanted TiVo to admit that they decided to cut the local numbers, and now you want them to admit that they decided to cut the 800 numbers. Of course the decision to cut the 800 numbers was TiVo's.



bbonacci said:


> Finally, I think it is interesting that you spent so much time trying to debate my other points and COMPLETELY ignored the main one which was that you can still go out and have the service poll for available numbers and return a list that has been 75% incorrect for over three months now.
> 
> Any thoughts on that????


I didn't comment on it, because I have little knowledge about the numbers that you are seeing. Off the top of my head, I would assume that the numbers get updated each time the TiVo software gets an update. But that's just a guess.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

The reality is that the dialup modem business is shrinking rapidly. I'm in the central office telephone switching business and a couple of our customers are network operators that sell dialup termination service to many companies. They tell me their customers are going away or significantly reducing their modem pool requirements. Good, bad, or indifferent, it is simply true.


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## OldTownTreadles (Mar 15, 2006)

rich said:


> The following site shows which numbers are currently active:
> 
> List of Verizon Business PoPs


Thanks for that. I see my bro is still covered by two numbers in his area (San Francisco Bay Area.)


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## studman5 (Nov 4, 2007)

bbonacci said:


> In my area (area code 570), they just shut off at least 12 phone numbers out of only 19. I know you can connect via network, but that is not an option for everyone. I am OK (due to network connection) but I know 3 people in my area who all have lifetime subscriptions (2 of the 3 just signed up about 1 year ago) and they are now stuck with a toll call to update the tivo. The toll free numbers that were available are also not working anymore.
> Does anyone else think this is completely unacceptable? I am surprised I didn't see any other postings about this. Maybe I don't know where to look.


what is network connection??


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

studman5 said:


> what is network connection??


These are not directtv tivos they were talking about over here. Regular S2s/S3s have a broadband connectivity option.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5664325#post5664325


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