# Battlestar Galactica S03E01



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Not much to say beside holy FRACK!
It's back. and I am so glad! Too much to digest for now. Gonna watch again.


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

Lee sure did porked up!! The Col's wife, the whore, needs to die........


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## UnionBuster (Jun 7, 2002)

Absolutely amazing....


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## mrpope (Jan 13, 2006)

great drama. glad it's back, but very depressing. it seems as if they are going to do another major shake up by killing most of the main characters.


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## mgk (Oct 23, 2003)

wow really good start to a new season imo


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

mrpope said:


> great drama. glad it's back, but very depressing. it seems as if they are going to do another major shake up by killing most of the main characters.


Looks are deceiving.


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## A.C. (Sep 16, 2002)

If this isn't one of the 5 best shows on TV then I don't know what is.... You know a show is good when after two hours of it straight, you want more, more right away. It's kinda sad that the "TV Experts" at Universal can't see what a great show they have and put it into their NBC lineup. It's that good. They really missed the boat there.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

A.C. said:


> It's kinda sad that the "TV Experts" at Universal can't see what a great show they have and put it into their NBC lineup. It's that good. They really missed the boat there.


I don't want it on NBC. It's perfect right where it is. Being on SciFi allows it to be edgier. Move it to one of the major networks and it's going to lose it's edge. It's going to get tamed in order not to offend.

I prefer it right where it is, thanks.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

The big question is Kara playing along or sucked in?


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Gunnyman said:


> The big question is Kara playing along or sucked in?


I would hope she's playing along, but who knows?

I liked how they integrated the webisode characters into the show without making it so you HAD to have seen them.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

and Jammer a member of the Police? WTF?


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## purwater (Aug 25, 2005)

I thought Jammer told the Chief he was joining the police force (in the webisodes) so he could fight from the inside. I was unsure if the Chief knew Jammer was a cop tonight or if he knew and wanted to know if Jammer knew any of the cops responsible for taking all those humans into custody. I'll be the first to say it. Sharon.....Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

purwater said:


> I thought Jammer told the Chief he was joining the police force (in the webisodes) so he could fight from the inside. I was unsure if the Chief knew Jammer was a cop tonight or if he knew and wanted to know if Jammer knew any of the cops responsible for taking all those humans into custody. I'll be the first to say it. Sharon.....Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.


Nope that was Duck.

I am so glad it looks like the show is on track. The webisodes had me worried because they sucked pretty hardcore.

Mrs. Tigh really needs to die in a fire. Starbuck needs to wake up and get a haircut. Apollo needs to do some laps! His fat make-up is pretty damn bad. His cheek was about 3 different sizes in one scene.

I didn't know it was going to be two hours. That was awesome except for the fact that I could use about another 3 hours of it!


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## Domandred (Sep 8, 2006)

All I can say is reiterate what others said....

Fraking amazing


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

Figaro said:


> Nope that was Duck.
> 
> I am so glad it looks like the show is on track. The webisodes had me worried because they sucked pretty hardcore.
> 
> ...


Actually, if you look at the guide data, it was 2 shows.

I noticed the face makeup changing sizes as well. Could be they felt it was overdone, pulled it back a bit, and ended up using a different take because one didn't go as well, emotionally. I was suprised to see Apollo's belly, though. I was a bit sad, as well. I was looking forward to the man candy.


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## potters2643 (Feb 17, 2006)

My folks always fight me, I talked them into Firefly and Farscape after a TON of pushing, now they own both on dvd. I finally get them to watch BSG, watch it with them, and they both say the same thing...

"Is it always so damn depressing?"

but they already want more, I win again.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

So it gets better after the first 50 minutes?

I turned it off and watched something (anything) else at that point. It was so bad I couldn't take any more in one sitting.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

dswallow said:


> So it gets better after the first 50 minutes?
> 
> I turned it off and watched something (anything) else at that point. It was so bad I couldn't take any more in one sitting.


Wow I guess your the guy keeping Nanny 911 on the air lol.


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

generalpatton71 said:


> Wow I guess your the guy keeping Nanny 911 on the air lol.


LMAO :up:


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## ewolfr (Feb 12, 2001)

A.C. said:


> If this isn't one of the 5 best shows on TV then I don't know what is.... You know a show is good when after two hours of it straight, you want more, more right away. It's kinda sad that the "TV Experts" at Universal can't see what a great show they have and put it into their NBC lineup. It's that good. They really missed the boat there.


Not only "no," but "hell no." With the itchy trigger fingers that the networks have right now BG would have to pull 10m viewers an ep to stay on the air. I prefer that it stay on SciFi where they are satisfied to get a couple million instead and still keep the show on the air.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Two expectations fulfilled tonight.

I expected it to be intense.

I expected Doug to tell us how bad it was, and that either he turned it off, or is giving it one more episode before he gives it up.



It was indeed two episodes...called "The Occupation" and "Precipice."

What's up with Osama Bin Tigh?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

BTW, checking the podcast feed, looks like the commentary is out there to be downloaded.


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## pestilence (Jul 22, 2006)

col tigh got out too easy the preacher is too sneaky to be trusted anybody really trust that eye patch?


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Awesome premiere! :up:

RDM really came out swinging with some controversial terrorism themes. The sex scene, the firing squad, they were really pushing the limits.

Adama with a mustache reminds me of Captain Gloval from Robotech.










Chief looks cool with the beard.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

DLL66 said:


> The Col's wife, the whore, needs to die........


Not before she teaches my girlfriend "the swirl"! 

BTW, color me confused... why is suicide bombing any more or less abhorrent than regular bombing?


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

busyba said:


> Not before she teaches my girlfriend "the swirl"!


LOL!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

busyba said:


> Not before she teaches my girlfriend "the swirl"!
> 
> BTW, color me confused... why is suicide bombing any more or less abhorrent than regular bombing?


I don't think it came across well, but I assumed it was the nature of the targets with all the civilian casualties.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

hefe said:


> What's up with Osama Bin Tigh?


I'm shocked that it took so many posts until this was mentioned...the parallels to current event was quite jarring and very cleverly done...

this was simply brilliant...

the firing squad sequence was very much like "The Great Escape"...anyone else notice that?


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Absolutely brilliant. Only The Wire is comaprable in terms of quality.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

You all apparently were watching a completely different show than what DirecTV aired in the SciFi channel's position. Or else the final 60-70 minutes was about 6,000% better than the first 50.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dswallow said:


> You all apparently were watching a completely different show than what DirecTV aired in the SciFi channel's position. Or else the final 60-70 minutes was about 6,000% better than the first 50.


...or, we have much better taste than you do!


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## Michelle5150 (Nov 16, 2004)

DLiquid said:


> Adama with a mustache reminds me of Captain Gloval from Robotech.


That's hilarious. I was watching the episode thinking that Tigh looked like Captain Avatar from Star Blazers, then I come here and see someone else posting a pic from Robotech. Funny that both of us compared characters to similar anime shows.










Anyway, i've been renting the BG DVD's over the summer to catch up, and just watched the last one a couple days ago, so I didn't have the several months in-between episodes that most of you did. I enjoyed the premiere, but look forward to them getting back up and fighting the Cylons again.

My biggest complaint is the terrible makeup job they did on Apollo. Sheesh. I noticed his cheek changing sizes too in that one scene. It was horrible. :down:


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

dswallow said:


> You all apparently were watching a completely different show than what DirecTV aired in the SciFi channel's position. Or else the final 60-70 minutes was about 6,000% better than the first 50.


Yes, yes, we'll give you attention. We are all wrong and you are right. Taste is not subjective. We will only watch what you like. Doug Swallow is a cool name.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> Yes, yes, we'll give you attention. We are all wrong and you are right. Taste is not subjective. We will only watch what you like. Doug Swallow is a cool name.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

So I assume everyone will tell Adama he shouldn't have trusted Boomer.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

I know I'd volunteer to father Boomers baby! I just love the way there back bones glow.


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## gpejsa (Jan 27, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I'm shocked that it took so many posts until this was mentioned...the parallels to current event was quite jarring and very cleverly done...
> 
> this was simply brilliant...
> 
> the firing squad sequence was very much like "The Great Escape"...anyone else notice that?


Ah....I missed that while watching but you are right on....very reminiscent of the Great Escape...one of my fave movies.

XBLive Huskerfan


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

hefe said:


> What's up with Osama Bin Tigh?


I thought that he was more al Zarqawi, than Bin Laden.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

hefe said:


> busyba said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, color me confused... why is suicide bombing any more or less abhorrent than regular bombing?
> ...


Except that people were saying how bad it was even after the first bombing, which was all Cylons or collaborators...


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> Except that people were saying how bad it was even after the first bombing, which was all Cylons or collaborators...


I think it's because it devalues human life - the life of the one making the sacrifice. I'm not expressing a personal opinion. Given their circumstances, it's an effective strategy.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I thought this episode was great and it left me eager for next week. It did start out a bit slow, but they needed to set the stage for what's coming next.

I absolutely think Starbuck is faking. Her reaction to the girl opening her eyes was too much to be natural, and then putting her hand on the Cylon was completely overboard. My prediction is that she's going to be a major player in the rescue, maybe even being the one to get the flight keys they were discussing on Galactica.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

jehma said:


> maybe even being the one to get the flight keys they were discussing on Galactica.


How could she get the flight keys?!? She's locked away.

Gaeta, Lt. Sharon or Jammer are a lot more likely to be able to get the keys...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vman41 said:


> So I assume everyone will tell Adama he shouldn't have trusted Boomer.


why? has she done anything to betray them?

what I really don't understand is the Chief's reaction to Gaeta...having a spy infiltrate the enemy, gain a position of power, and moving critical information vital to the resistance is something they should give him a medal for, not hang him...

Gaeta is an absolute hero (although I still think he's a cylon!)...that entire part was a total mystery to me...


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Anubys said:


> what I really don't understand is the Chief's reaction to Gaeta...having a spy infiltrate the enemy, gain a position of power, and moving critical information vital to the resistance is something they should give him a medal for, not hang him...


First of all, the Chief doesn't know that Gaeta is the one giving the resistance information.

Secondly, I think you have the steps out of order. Gaeta left the Fleet to become Baltar's chief of staff. The Cylons didn't come for a year. It's not like Gaeta "infiltrated the enemy"---he was already part of the reviled civilian leadership before the Cylons came.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Anubys said:


> what I really don't understand is the Chief's reaction to Gaeta...having a spy infiltrate the enemy, gain a position of power, and moving critical information vital to the resistance is something they should give him a medal for, not hang him...
> 
> Gaeta is an absolute hero (although I still think he's a cylon!)...that entire part was a total mystery to me...


Yeah, but Chief doesn't know that. He doesn't know Gaeta is the one who has been passing him secrets.



Amnesia said:


> How could she get the flight keys?!? She's locked away.


If she makes out like she is with them, maybe the Cylons will let her out for good behavior.

Surprised no one has mentioned the different opening. It didn't mention anything about them trying to "find a place called Earth", but rather mentioned they were trying "to survive". Makes me think it might be a while before they're back in fleet formation.

And why did they take the collaborators to a secluded area to execute them? If I was trying to make a statement, I would have put them all in front of a firing squad in the middle of town. How will the rest of the humans know if they're dead or just in detention?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> First of all, the Chief doesn't know that Gaeta is the one giving the resistance information.
> 
> Secondly, I think you have the steps out of order. Gaeta left the Fleet to become Baltar's chief of staff. The Cylons didn't come for a year. It's not like Gaeta "infiltrated the enemy"---he was already part of the reviled civilian leadership before the Cylons came.


hmmm...ok about not knowing that Gaeta is the informer...I thought from their conversation that the secret was out...if that's the case, then, yeah, I see why he would think he's a traitor...

Gaeta leaving the fleet is not a problem...almost everyone had left the fleet and moved to new caprica (including Chief, Kara, Tie...etc.)...so that's certainly not enough to hang him for...


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

jking said:


> And why did they take the collaborators to a secluded area to execute them? If I was trying to make a statement, I would have put them all in front of a firing squad in the middle of town. How will the rest of the humans know if they're dead or just in detention?


Dictator 101: The unknown creates more fear than the reality.

Killing them in front of everyone causes anger. Which gives people more motivation to resist. This way there is more fear which is more difficult to overcome.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jking said:


> And why did they take the collaborators to a secluded area to execute them? If I was trying to make a statement, I would have put them all in front of a firing squad in the middle of town. How will the rest of the humans know if they're dead or just in detention?


Yeah, that's a strange one, especially since the Spylons who were arguing for the executions made a point of saying they should be very public.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Gaeta leaving the fleet is not a problem _(...)_ so that's certainly not enough to hang him for...


I'm not saying that he's a traitor for leaving the fleet, just that it's not like he joined Baltar government in order to be the "inside man" for the resistance...The resistance didn't even exist when he gained his "position of power"...


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Anubys said:


> why? has she done anything to betray them?


Doesn't matter, some will make the conclusion that she led the Cylons to the ambush simply because she was there.


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## kenr (Dec 26, 1999)

The link to the Ron Moore podcast for 301-302 is bad both on itunes and the scifi web page. Did anyone successfully download this podcast. The link that doesn't work is http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/301-302/bsg_ep301-302_FULL.mp3


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Speaking on Tigh's wife, I do agree that she's a whore and needs to be killed and all, yada, yada, yada, but at the same time I'm a bit surprised that she's still with Tigh at all. I always thought she was only with him so that she could be around all the power. He's obviously not in that position anymore, so I would have assumed she would have dumped him long ago and would be with the Cylons full time. I think it shows she does have at least some feelings for him.


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## M82A1A (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm new to Battlestar. I downloaded "The Story So Far" yesterday and watched it before watching the season premier. It was perfect. I knew enough of what was going on to enjoy the show. Can't wait until next Friday and until I have time to watch seasons 1 and 2!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

kenr said:


> The link to the Ron Moore podcast for 301-302 is bad both on itunes and the scifi web page. Did anyone successfully download this podcast. The link that doesn't work is http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/301-302/bsg_ep301-302_FULL.mp3


Mine is failing too.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vman41 said:


> Doesn't matter, some will make the conclusion that she led the Cylons to the ambush simply because she was there.


I think the real conflict with Galactica-Boomer will arise when she discovers that they stole her baby...


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I think the real conflict with Galactica-Boomer will arise when she discovers that they stole her baby...


But talking about the baby, I thought that the baby was supposed to be something special. If Kaycee (sp?) really is the child of Kara and her captor, that would suggest that there's nothing unique about the first hybrid baby.

And will Jo stick around as the hybrid's foster mother?


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> But talking about the baby, I thought that the baby was supposed to be something special. If Kaycee (sp?) really is the child of Kara and her captor, that would suggest that there's nothing unique about the first hybrid baby.
> 
> And will Jo stick around as the hybrid's foster mother?


Except that Sharon carried it pretty much to term.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> How could she get the flight keys?!? She's locked away.
> 
> Gaeta, Lt. Sharon or Jammer are a lot more likely to be able to get the keys...


It's all part of her plan


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Why are all the female Cylons stunning but the males are average looking at best?


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Gunnyman said:


> Except that Sharon carried it pretty much to term.


Why would that make a difference?

Amnesia makes a good point. They treated the little girl pretty casually compared to how important a hybrid baby is supposed to be.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jehma said:


> Why are all the female Cylons stunning but the males are average looking at best?


Because men are more likely to watch this show?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Anubys said:


> the firing squad sequence was very much like "The Great Escape"...anyone else notice that?


I was thinking the same thing while I was watching it. I thought for sure the exchange between Rosyln and Richard Hatch was going to include a line from that scene.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

jking said:


> And why did they take the collaborators to a secluded area to execute them? If I was trying to make a statement, I would have put them all in front of a firing squad in the middle of town.


Yeah, but you aren't as big a fan of The Great Escape as the director is. 

Seriously, that scene was practically a shot-by-shot remake.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ok...how about switching gears to something that has been bothering me since last night: 

what would you do if you were in Baltar's shoes? 

would you take the bullet or sign the order? his logic is kind of self-centered yet true...they were going to kill them anyway, so what is the purpose of taking the bullet? 

I'm really torn...I think I would take the bullet, but then again, I have the luxury of sitting in an ivory tower being philosophical about it...it's entirely different with a gun to your head and someone already shot right next to you by the same gun...


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I was hoping he'd take a bullet and wake up in a resurrection tank.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Anubys said:


> ok...how about switching gears to something that has been bothering me since last night:
> 
> what would you do if you were in Baltar's shoes?
> 
> ...


Well, the question is flawed because the personal qualities that would influence the decision would also influence whether or not one would be in Baltar's shoes in the first place.

I lack the pathology necessary to even want to be in a position of power like that, but I suppose if I were there I'd sign the order simply out of a survival instinct and the knowledge that my death wouldn't change anything. If I'm going to die, I'd like it to be for more than symbolism.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

but that's the thing, isn't it? if you live, you aided in the killing of 200 people...at least if you die, there's no blood on your hands...

It is such an impossible choice...yet people have had to make it so many times throughout history...


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Anubys said:


> but that's the thing, isn't it? if you live, you aided in the killing of 200 people...at least if you die, there's no blood on your hands...
> 
> It is such an impossible choice...yet people have had to make it so many times throughout history...


In that particular case, I'd have little problem rationalizing the fact that my involvement in the 200 deaths was an infinitesmally small token.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Anubys said:


> what would you do if you were in Baltar's shoes?


I think I would have argued with them a little more.

They said that they wanted him to sign the order to that the blood wasn't on their hands---that their god disapproved of murder. If so, would they really have killed Baltar?


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## painkiller (Jun 23, 2005)

Killing Baltar?

I think the Cylons are definitely playing psychological games up and down the pike.

They need Baltar alive (with his signatuire on that paper) so he becomes a target from his own kind. (Kinda sorta takes the edge off them.)

I noticed the similarity to "Great Escape" too - but didn't President whats-her-name say (earlier) some folks were known to have been killed, and some just disappeared?

As for Kara, I see the similarity to the Stockholm Syndrome sprouting.

A lot of human history is playing out in this episode. The suicide bomber references seemed to me to be making a statement of our current times in the Middle East on this show. Not that this is a political statement - but maybe the writers put it in just for making us see the similarity itself.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

painkiller said:


> A lot of human history is playing out in this episode. The suicide bomber references seemed to me to be making a statement of our current times in the Middle East on this show. Not that this is a political statement - but maybe the writers put it in just for making us see the similarity itself.


After listening to Moore's podcasts last year, I don't doubt there's a political statement in there.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Baltar was willing to take the bullet. However, the Caprica Six in his mind told him to sign it and live to fight another day. He trusted her truely.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

kenr said:


> The link to the Ron Moore podcast for 301-302 is bad both on itunes and the scifi web page. Did anyone successfully download this podcast


I, too, had iTunes telling this morning that the url was bad. But I was just able to successfully download it now. Off to listen/watch...


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## yaddayaddayadda (Apr 8, 2003)

jking said:


> Speaking on Tigh's wife, I do agree that she's a whore and needs to be killed and all, yada, yada, yada, but at the same time I'm a bit surprised that she's still with Tigh at all.


I don't recall saying she was in the first place 

Wasn't the swirl and the twist from Seinfeld?

Here's one thing that I found annoying (preview spoiler)


Spoiler



They show Rosalyn in the previews, which makes her not dead or a hallucination :down:


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jking said:


> Because men are more likely to watch this show?


More to the point, the Spylons were all designed by men!


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## GregA (Sep 1, 2002)

dswallow said:


> So it gets better after the first 50 minutes?
> 
> I turned it off and watched something (anything) else at that point. It was so bad I couldn't take any more in one sitting.


Ditto. They've gone and totally screwed up a great show.

It started out wierd, moved to really strange, and then took a major left turn into just plain bad.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but it's obviously a hacked-up, Anti-American, political moral relativistic protest of the war in Iraq. They've got the humans as "insurgents" against the oppressive invading machines, "turncoat" humans volunteering as a police force in conjunction with the Cylons, humans "with nothing left to live for" volunteering to strap on explosives and becoming hero suicide bombers, "insurgents" creating improvised explosive devices and setting them off, constant reminders that "God" sent the Cylons to convert the heathen humans, and Madame President declaring that anyoen cooperating with the invaders is a traitor and the only way to get the Cylons is to hit a "high profile target".

I'm done. I watched the first hour and simply couldn't take any more; when the guy strapped on the bomb I hit "delete". The moral relativism made me ill, and I will not use my precious time to give it audience.

If by some miracle it goes back to the great show it was in the first season - and was almost that way in the second - feel free to send me an ping inviting a second look. Otherwise, screw 'em into non-existence.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

GregA said:


> Ditto. They've gone and totally screwed up a great show.
> 
> It started out wierd, moved to really strange, and then took a major left turn into just plain bad.
> 
> ...


Have fun watching Two and a Half Men!!


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## harvscar (Dec 7, 2001)

Every time they showed Apollo, especially when they profiled his gut all I could think of was the old SNL Bill Murray as fat Hercules skits. 

I enjoyed the episode and thought it was strong throughout.


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

GregA said:


> Ditto. They've gone and totally screwed up a great show.
> 
> It started out wierd, moved to really strange, and then took a major left turn into just plain bad.
> 
> ...


So.........what is your point?? You didn't like it??? Nick at Nite has something to your speed.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

hefe said:


> What's up with Osama Bin Tigh?


I don't know if the link will work, so I will spoilerize the article in The Star Ledger from Friday (because there are some spoilers in it). http://www.nj.com/search/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1160151303160440.xml?starledger?colsep&coll=1



Spoiler



What the frak? 
More than sci-fi: 'Galactica' revival parallels 9/11 and Iraq war 
Friday, October 06, 2006
The bad guys are an occupying force among a hostile population, accused of torture and worse even as they say they're there to build an infrastructure. The good guys are using improvised explosive devices, hiding guns inside of places of worship -- even, on occasion, strapping explosives to their chests for a suicide bombing run.

In the parlance of "Battlestar Galactica," what the frak is going on here? 
Since its revival in 2003, "Galactica" has been one of the most overtly political shows on television, albeit one with spaceships and robots. The human heroes were set up as America; the robotic Cylons, who were created and trained by the humans only to rebel and become religious fanatic mass murderers, were stand-ins for Al Qaeda. 9/11 imagery abounded, characters debated the merits of security versus civil liberties and leaders on all sides invoked their respective deities as justification for their actions.

At the end of season two, producer Ronald D. Moore and his writers ripped up the series' status quo. The human fleet settled on an obscure planet they dubbed New Caprica, lived there for a year in relative peace, then faced an invasion by the Cylons.

The new season picks up four months into the occupation, and despite the Cylons' claims of benevolence, the largest structure visible anywhere is the new jail. Humans are routinely rounded up without cause, others are branded as traitors for joining a Cylon-organized police force, and the resistance, led by former prisoner and torture victim Colonel Tigh (Michael Hogan), is trying out suicide bombings.

If the humans were originally us and the Cylons were Al Qaeda, how did the Cylons become America while we became the Iraqis?

"That's only one of the parallels that we played," insists Moore. "Certainly, that parallel is there, but there's also elements of Vichy France and the West Bank. Clearly, the war in Iraq plays into what we're doing. We didn't really design it as a polemic about Iraq, but it is informed by Iraq."

Within the narrow slice of the population willing to look past the show's title and realize it's one of the best pure dramas on television, debate rages over what the show's politics are, or what they should be.

"There's a healthy strain of the fanbase online that's interested in the politics and argues vociferously," says Moore. "There's definitely some who think I'm part of the 'blame America' crowd, and those who think it's a military recruiting poster."

That confusion tells Moore that he's doing his job, that he's making a character drama with a political bent instead of a political screed with interesting characters attached, and that he's succeeding in dramatizing and humanizing the different points of view on the show. (He can even justify the Cylons genocide of most of the human race if you want.)
"I try to look at all of the characters of the show, and try to write from their perspective," he says.

Through much of the first two seasons, Moore dramatized the security vs. freedom debate through Bill Adama (Edward James Olmos), leader of the post-Cylon human military, and Laura Roslin, the education secretary who fell into the job of president. Once the hawk vs. dove lines were clear, Moore began crossing them
"During the first and second seasons, you saw Laura grow more authoritarian, you saw her chuck people out of airlocks just in case they were a threat. She would clamp down on dissent, and Adama was progressively more unhappy with that. There was the point where Laura begins to believe her faith and religion guide her presidency, and the show validated that -- we suggested that her spiritual visions were real."

Moore, whose father served in Vietnam and who was himself in the Navy ROTC for most of college, tries his best to let the story dictate what the characters say and do, instead of what he personally believes.

"I don't look at the show as an opportunity to platform my political beliefs, but I'm not naive enough to think my political outlook doesn't influence the show. It's mostly about trying to be true to what the characters are about. The politics of it should only relate to how it works in the story. I had Laura ban abortion at one point, which doesn't line up with my politics at all."

Spending so much time inside the head of a wartime president had an unexpected side effect: "Writing the character and the situation, I have more sympathy for George W. Bush. I don't hate the man. I disagree violently with many of his decisions, but I can kind of go to a place where I understand where he's working from, the pressure of that office, the security of millions riding on your every decision."

After two years of fleet on the run stories and space battles, Moore changed things up to keep himself and viewers from getting bored. The show will eventually return to its basic structure, but in the meantime, the story of a military occupation gave him fodder for his favored pastime of forcing viewers to question their own beliefs and loyalties.

With the suicide bombings, "we wanted to not have a real simple answer about it, wanted you to be horrified, but at the same time see that it worked." He's especially fond of a scene where Laura debates the practice with her successor -- and Cylon collaborator -- Gaius Baltar (James Callis) because "the lines are blurred. Whose side are you on in that room?"

And where ABC's "Path to 9/11" miniseries got bogged down in controversies over how much blame was being assigned to Clinton vs. Bush, who did what, etc., Moore can cherry pick from current events without fear of being attacked by Bill O'Reilly or Keith Olbermann.

"The fact that we're not saying, 'These are the Republicans and these are the Democrats and this is Al Qaeda' means we can get to the heart of the drama, and examine it from many angles, make the audience question whose side they're on, in a way you can't in a docudrama.

"I think the show is relevant and is trying to do what science fiction is supposed to do, which is to examine society through a different prism. I like the show to raise questions, to provoke people and get them to question their beliefs -- and if they come out the other side of that with their beliefs affirmed, that's fine. The show raises questions. It doesn't try to answer them. We don't try to say in 90 minutes, 'Here's what the solution to Iraq is.' I think the show tries to get you to examine these issues and decide for yourself."


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## GregA (Sep 1, 2002)

spikedavis said:


> Have fun watching Two and a Half Men!!


Oops! My mistake! I thought this was an open forum for thoughtful exchanges of ideas and opinions, not childish and immature name calling.

My bad! I'll be on my way...


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> More to the point, the Spylons were all designed by men!


Cylons were designed by men. Spylons were designed by Cylons. Central casting knows their audience.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dswallow said:


> So it gets better after the first 50 minutes?
> 
> I turned it off and watched something (anything) else at that point. It was so bad I couldn't take any more in one sitting.


I'm with Doug on this but also not.

The beginning of the show was a muddled mess. So muddled, I thought my TiVo had missed the beginning of the show.

But it did get better and it started to make sense and got good. Overall, a solid season opener but they did take too much of a leap between the skip forward last year and the muddle that was the first half hour or so. I am not one that takes notes while watching a show and don't appreciate that everyone's appearance changed with beards, mud, etc., and have the creators of the show expect me to understand it all without crib notes.

But the story telling became cleaner as it went on.

Anyway, I can see why Doug gave up. I just don't give up that easily and the patience was rewarded in the long run.

Anyone who doesn't admit the beginning of the show was a muddled mess either pays far more attention to TV than I do or is just in denial (or a fanboy).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

hefe said:


> After listening to Moore's podcasts last year, I don't doubt there's a political statement in there.


and if he'd said otherwise, I would have called him a liar...training the police, the insurgents killing the police, the insurgents using suicide bombers, killing civilians in the market, cylons trying to make people "believe" in their God...etc.

there is just no way this was a coincidence...after using the 9/11 wall of pictures earlier, there was no doubt in my mind...

what I find amazing is how he makes Baltar almost a sympathetic figure...things simply spin out of his control...almost every decision he has made -- while deplorable -- can be explained logically with him not having any other option...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And I think they also use the (imperfect) parallels to make us very uneasy with the heroes' behavior. You would expect the humans to be the good guys and the Cylons to be the bad guys, but lining them up the way they do blurs the lines.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tigh's speech to Roslyn about sending a man to die was really well done as well... 

but the whole time I was thinking that they are going to alienate some people (witness the rant a few posts above)... 

when TV is just fluff, people complain about fluff...when a brilliant show that provides social commentary and asks you to THINK, people rant about not wanting that as well...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

GregA said:


> Oops! My mistake! I thought this was an open forum for thoughtful exchanges of ideas and opinions, not childish and immature name calling.
> 
> My bad! I'll be on my way...


you were not exchanging thoughtful ideas and opinions, you were complaining that the show dared to question your beliefs or to present a point of view different than yours...

instead of considering the point that the show was making (which is where the expression "thought exchange" would come in, by the way) you dismissed it and deleted it...


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## painkiller (Jun 23, 2005)

Speaking for myself (of course), I will be "hanging in there" to see what the rest of this season brings us.

I couldn't help but notice all these parallels myself, and trying to keep my political feelings to a low rumble is difficult, but not impossible.

So I'll keep an open mind (for now) and watch and wait to see if BSG gets better.


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## Domandred (Sep 8, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Tigh's speech to Roslyn about sending a man to die was really well done as well...
> 
> but the whole time I was thinking that they are going to alienate some people (witness the rant a few posts above)...
> 
> when TV is just fluff, people complain about fluff...when a brilliant show that provides social commentary and asks you to THINK, people rant about not wanting that as well...


I would have let it slide if it wasn't for the speech actually. The problem is that there is a difference between sending soldiers (pilots) off on a one-way "suicide" mission and sending someone in as a suicide bomber with bombs strapped to their body.

The difference is probably lost on many moonbats and anti-war people but there IS a difference, and also one that Tigh should/would have known being a military officer.

That's where the problem lies.

Not that there was a suicide bomber, but the fact that the political message from RDM and Tigh's speech was that suicide bomber = one way pilot mission and they most definitly do not.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Domandred said:


> Not that there was a suicide bomber, but the fact that the political message from RDM and Tigh's speech was that suicide bomber = one way pilot mission and they most definitly do not.


But I factored in the fact that Tigh looked bordeline (?) insane when he was making that comparison...

I think the presentation was a lot more complicated and nuanced than you're giving it credit for.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

So what was the significance of the exchange and the hand signal between Roslyn and the VP (can't remember his name). They say how Gaius was pissed at them, and they show her hands in a strange position. But if there is something meaningful there, I totally missed it.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Handcuffs.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Domandred said:


> The difference is probably lost on many moonbats and anti-war people but there IS a difference, and also one that Tigh should/would have known being a military officer.
> 
> That's where the problem lies.


"dead is dead" is what I believe he said...I'm not a moonbat and I fail to see the difference...sending a soldier to die while taking as many of the enemy with him as he can is different how?

what's the nuance that I am failing to see?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Anubys said:


> "dead is dead" is what I believe he said...I'm not a moonbat and I fail to see the difference...sending a soldier to die while taking as many of the enemy with him as he can is different how?
> 
> what's the nuance that I am failing to see?


It's not different from the perspective the attacker...but it depends what you are attacking. A military target, for example, or a something like a marketplace, as was discussed in the show and objected to by everyone but Tigh.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hefe said:


> It's not different from the perspective [of] the attacker...but it depends [on] what you are attacking. A military target, for example, or something like a marketplace, as was discussed in the show and objected to by everyone but Tigh.


And I think we have to consider the source--Tigh has ALWAYS been portrayed as somebody who is utterly incapable of making a sound or even moral decision on his own. When he doesn't have Adama to overrule him, he's a walking disaster area. And as you pointed out, he is the only one on the show who thinks suicide bombing is a good idea. I suspect the writers are doing that on purpose, and not portraying suicide bombing as noble or justified.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Heh. I'm usually much gramatically better.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

and I agree about the marketplace...that is what makes the show so brilliant...tigh will do whatever it takes to WIN...the rest would rather decrease their chances of winning (or rather, don't see how this helps them win) in favor of maintaining their moral center...and that is why Tigh was shown as brooding and almost demented...it showed why people like that do what they do and how far away from humanity that makes them... 

I keep saying "brilliant" a lot...it was just so well done...Tigh is wrong, of course, but you can see why he THINKS he's right...and you can see why so many might agree with him... 

but...wasn't Rosalyn objecting to suicide bombing of any kind?


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Um- I thought New Caprica was a barely habitable planet, with a narrow band of latitude that could support human life. The city is located in the most sorry looking cold, muddy field this side of an outdoor rock concert in England- in November.

But the rendezvous point and the massacre location are lush, verdant spots of sylvan perfection. 
Yeah, good thing they didn't try to live there!!


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> and if he'd said otherwise, I would have called him a liar...training the police, the insurgents killing the police, the insurgents using suicide bombers, killing civilians in the market, cylons trying to make people "believe" in their God...etc.


Other than the fact that US troops (a) aren't trying to convert Iraqis to Christianity, (b) don't have masked squads round up people in the middle of the night, (c) don't control Iraq's food supply and use it as a tool of terror and intimidation, and (d) aren't making people disappear without a trace, it's a perfect allegory of the Iraq war. If Moore really believes these things are being done he's a moonbat lunatic of the highest order, otherwise his attempts to link the events on BSG to the Iraq war are simply barely-disguised slander.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Well, I discovered the answer I'd asked for twice here. No, it doesn't get any better.

That's a shame. Thanks Ron Moore for ruining a remake that had so much promise up until now.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I'm shocked that it took so many posts until this was mentioned...the parallels to current event was quite jarring and very cleverly done...
> 
> this was simply brilliant...
> 
> the firing squad sequence was very much like "The Great Escape"...anyone else notice that?


You say brilliant, I'd say more of a complete lack of imagination. Gee, it's sure tough to draw similarities between our current events/leaders/terrorists and the events on a tv show. I've seen that show, it was called Star Trek. Don't get me wrong, I like BSG A LOT, but if they start turning it into a warped representation of our current political events, I'm deleting the SP. The show is SO much better than that, and I know the writers are too. That being said, I'm disappointed with the season premiere and I hope the show returns to it's former glory.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Well, I discovered the answer I'd asked for twice here. No, it doesn't get any better.
> 
> That's a shame. Thanks Ron Moore for ruining a remake that had so much promise up until now.


Hyperbole much?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

kbohip said:


> You say brilliant, I'd say more of a complete lack of imagination. Gee, it's sure tough to draw similarities between our current events/leaders/terrorists and the events on a tv show. I've seen that show, it was called Star Trek. Don't get me wrong, I like BSG A LOT, but if they start turning it into a warped representation of our current political events, I'm deleting the SP. The show is SO much better than that, and I know the writers are too. That being said, I'm disappointed with the season premiere and I hope the show returns to it's former glory.


I don't think this link to current events will continue...just like he used the wall of pictures (like the pictures all over NY post 9/11), and then moved on to the rest of the story, I think he will move on again...where necessary, he will remind us that history repeats itself in many forms...that's the point, I think...

so no, I don't expect this to continue...heck, I expect it to end within the first 5 minutes of the next show!



tivogurl said:


> Other than the fact that US troops (a) aren't trying to convert Iraqis to Christianity, (b) don't have masked squads round up people in the middle of the night, (c) don't control Iraq's food supply and use it as a tool of terror and intimidation, and (d) aren't making people disappear without a trace, it's a perfect allegory of the Iraq war. If Moore really believes these things are being done he's a moonbat lunatic of the highest order, otherwise his attempts to link the events on BSG to the Iraq war are simply barely-disguised slander.


wow...talk about missing the point completely...this was not an anti-Bush rant...he simply used current events and switched things around to make us consider morality in times of war...the limits to which humans will go...nothing is black and white and everything has its context...heros and villains are simply a matter of perspective...an allegory does not mean that there should be perfect one-to-one match...the fact that we understood the metaphors is all that was needed...


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> wow...talk about missing the point completely...this was not an anti-Bush rant...he simply used current events and switched things around to make us consider morality in times of war...the limits to which humans will go...nothing is black and white and everything has its context...heros and villains are simply a matter of perspective...an allegory does not mean that there should be perfect one-to-one match...the fact that we understood the metaphors is all that was needed...


Now see - there you go adding shades of gray where they need not be.

Whichever side We take is the correct side.

You must be a moonbat. Or a traitor. I bet you have Michael Moore's cell number on speed dial.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mostman said:


> You must be a moonbat. Or a traitor.


why can't I be both?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Anubys said:


> wow...talk about missing the point completely...this was not an anti-Bush rant...he simply used current events and switched things around to make us consider morality in times of war...the limits to which humans will go...nothing is black and white and everything has its context...heros and villains are simply a matter of perspective...an allegory does not mean that there should be perfect one-to-one match...the fact that we understood the metaphors is all that was needed...


Well said. That's pretty much how I was thinking about it. It's not necessarily a comment on what is right and wrong in the real world and current events. It's showing how your perspective matters in your judgment.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

I knew the terrorism parallels would piss some people off. Frankly, even though I appreciated the irony of making the good guys the terrorists, I did think it was a little _too_ similar to the Iraq occupation. You can do social commentary without blatantly mirroring current events. I remember some bad episode of Star Trek where it was obviously about people's paranoia about AIDS. It was just too obvious though. RDM didn't write that one, did he? 

I still thought it was a great premiere, but I wouldn't want every week to be this CNN.


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

As I was watching, I kept thinking about a Nazi Germany occupation.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Or even the american revolution. Or the Crusades. "Insurgents" is not a word invented since the war in Iraq started.


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

I don't see how people thought it was muddled - "in medias res" - starting the story in the middle. Its a well known story telling technique, and we leaped four months from the finale to the premiere, so of course there is catching up to be done. You don't have to understand every moment of what you're seeing in the beginning. You don't have to. You're not meant to.

The terrorist stuff certainly isn't safe TV. But I would be disappointed if Galactica went soft - the fact that some of it is difficult to watch and that the show presses on with it because it rings true to the situation and the character and not the audience expectations is a testiment to how brilliant the writing is on this show.

Absolutely, if you're uncomfortable with it, you shouldn't watch it. We'll miss you and believe me, you're missing some excellent TV over here.

And in terms of how people seem to believe that its all changed, nothing in this show has ever been black and white. Roslin is Clinton and Bush. Humans are America and Iraq. Cyclons are Muslim and Christian. This is continuing down the same path that we originally started on. The departure is being stuck on New Caprica, but you're fooling yourself if you think that this rescue won't succeed and our heroes (?) are back in the black.

Just remember, on this show, as in life, there is no such thing as a "good" guy or a "bad" guy. Everyone has their reasons for everything and everyone's reasons seem valid to themselves. Roslin has done "good" and "bad" things, as have Adama, and Baltar, and Sharon, and Six, and etc. That's why mankind fights and until different sides can see another side, we'll keep fighting.

This show, like all good drama, is an examination of the human condition. If you simply want escapist entertainment, that's fine... but its not here. And it hasn't been here all along, whether you noticed or not. 

And on a side note, its funny to me that the previous poster took being called a Two and Half Men viewer as a serious insult.


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

mostman said:


> Now see - there you go adding shades of gray where they need not be.
> 
> Whichever side We take is the correct side.
> 
> You must be a moonbat. Or a traitor. I bet you have Michael Moore's cell number on speed dial.


Man, I hope all that was said in jest.


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## quango (Sep 25, 2005)

As "tivogurl" notes, if you're trying to see this episode as RDM's allegory for Iraq, it really doesn't work. The motivations for the Cylons on New Caprica (which in and of themselves make no sense, as presented to date) have zero in common with the US mission in Iraq; the Cylon occupation force behaves more like the Nazis or Soviets than any US occupation government in history; Americans aren't stealing the ovaries of Iraqi women to create Iraqi-American hybrids; etc ad nauseum. If you're reading it as an allegory for current events, you probably have an incredibly limited knowledge of human history, although I suppose you could take one or two snippets and say they have something in common with current events.

If anything, I read the episode as "RDM finally gets to tell the story of the Cardassian occupation of Bajor."

As for Baltar... it's a pretty established point that if someone holds a gun to your head and you do something to avoid imminent death, you aren't legally or morally culpable for it. If the Cylons had said "if you refuse to sign, we'll toss you in detention" and Baltar had signed, that would have demonstrated real weakness of character, but the imminent threat of a bullet to the brain basically absolves him (and legally would render his signature void).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Vito the TiVo said:


> Man, I hope all that was said in jest.


The fact that we live in a climate where there's any room for doubt is a sad commentary on our society...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

quango said:


> As for Baltar... it's a pretty established point that if someone holds a gun to your head and you do something to avoid imminent death, you aren't legally or morally culpable for it. If the Cylons had said "if you refuse to sign, we'll toss you in detention" and Baltar had signed, that would have demonstrated real weakness of character, but the imminent threat of a bullet to the brain basically absolves him (and legally would render his signature void).


I think a lot of French people who died rather than submit to the Nazis in WWII would disagree with that...

(Oh, wait, I forgot, the French are cheese-eating surrender monkeys.)


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## f0gax (Aug 8, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> (Oh, wait, I forgot, the French are cheese-eating surrender monkeys.)


I LOL'd.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Anubys said:


> wow...talk about missing the point completely...this was not an anti-Bush rant...he simply used current events and switched things around to make us consider morality in times of war...the limits to which humans will go...nothing is black and white and everything has its context...heros and villains are simply a matter of perspective...an allegory does not mean that there should be perfect one-to-one match...the fact that we understood the metaphors is all that was needed...


 :up: :up: :up:


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

5thcrewman said:


> Um- I thought New Caprica was a barely habitable planet, with a narrow band of latitude that could support human life. The city is located in the most sorry looking cold, muddy field this side of an outdoor rock concert in England- in November.
> 
> But the rendezvous point and the massacre location are lush, verdant spots of sylvan perfection.
> Yeah, good thing they didn't try to live there!!


But then everyone would have complained about how New Caprica looked too much like all the places the SG-1/SGA teams visit


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## painkiller (Jun 23, 2005)

I agree with Anubys.

Time will tell, of course.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think a lot of French people who died rather than submit to the Nazis in WWII would disagree with that...
> 
> (Oh, wait, I forgot, the French are cheese-eating surrender monkeys.)


Doctor Baltar isn't French? But he talks just like Pip on South Park?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

For my part, I'd prefer it if they didn't use imagery and language from current events or history. It pulls me out of the story--especially if the parallels are, um, not parallel. Social commentary is a bad substitute for drama (IMHO of course.).



balboa dave said:


> Cylons were designed by men. Spylons were designed by Cylons. Central casting knows their audience.


Nerds?



Anubys said:


> nothing is black and white and everything has its context...heros and villains are simply a matter of perspective...


Maybe. But, when the Cylons tried to exterminate humanity, that had to be pretty close to black... A dark gray? Charcoal?



Vito the TiVo said:


> Just remember, on this show, as in life, there is no such thing as a "good" guy or a "bad" guy.


Not perfectly, of course. But, the writers do seem to think that some characters are more good than others, and that some ideas are good while others are not... (I won't spoil it for you. )



> Cyclons are Muslim and Christian.


And atheist. But, not pagan. At their creepiest, though, they take on the speech and mannerisms of fundamentalist Christians--apparently the scariest inference the writers could make.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Anubys has made the critical point here.

Don't let the show offend your political sensibilities. If it does, you probably shouldn't be watching it for your own sanity.

The colonials are not the Iraqi insurgency. The cylons are not America. The ideas leading to the show sprung from current world events, but are altered to fit the show's situations and individual characters. It's a story that causes you to stop and think.

That being said, this was easily the best BSG has ever been. I've never felt so caught up in the moral dilemmas raised by the show. Look at Laura's scenes - refusing to admit to Baltar that the bombings were wrong, but knowing it in her heart they were not the right choice. Adama's frustration and anger, Baltar's desperation, the Chief's caution and worry over Kaylee.....it goes on and on. It's easy to forget these aren't real people, they are so complex and deeply flawed, just like all of us.

Assuming the occupation ends in the next several episodes, it'll be interesting to see how the "collaborators" are treated.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Big_Daddy said:


> Assuming the occupation ends in the next several episodes, it'll be interesting to see how the "collaborators" are treated.


...assuming they don't cop out, like they did after the human civil war, which was forgotten within minutes...


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Totally rocked. I was riveted. Me wants more now! Hulk smash!


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...assuming they don't cop out, like they did after the human civil war, which was forgotten within minutes...


True. I really hope we don't return to Rosalyn floating in Colonial One and everything is "back to normal" after this. I don't see how it could, and have the series remain faithful to itself.

Regardless, this should have some pretty strong consequences for Baltar, Gaeta, and even Ellen Tigh.

It was very interesting to see Tom Zarick at the end, his response to the Cylons, and how he now has a lot in common with Rosalyn...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Big_Daddy said:


> It was very interesting to see Tom Zarick at the end, his response to the Cylons, and how he now has a lot in common with Rosalyn...


And amusing that Zarick is now more youthful and vigorous than Apollo...


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And amusing that Zarick is now more youthful and vigorous than Apollo...


Poor fat Apollo. For two seasons we were hit over the head with the fact that he works out. Now the poor guy just eats and stuffs his cheeks with cotton.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Big_Daddy said:


> Regardless, this should have some pretty strong consequences for Baltar, Gaeta, and even Ellen Tigh.


Baltar, definitely.

Gaeta, well, if he discloses that he was the inside man for the resistance, he will probably come out OK.

And as for Ellen: I bet that no one will discover what she did...


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Anyone who doesn't admit the beginning of the show was a muddled mess either pays far more attention to TV than I do or is just in denial (or a fanboy).


Or, and this a huge stretch, maybe they disagree with you.

I got no impression the show was muddled and had an easy time following it. That was one of the most riveting and well-made episodes of the entire series.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

The only way this show is going to survive is for them to get back in Space, no one wants to see this junk, This is a Sci Fi show not a soap opera. imho


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> The only way this show is going to survive is for them to get back in Space, no one wants to see this junk, This is a Sci Fi show not a soap opera. imho


Hi, there. My name is No One.

(I thought it was Rob, but I guess you set me straight!)


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Hi, there. My name is No One.
> 
> (I thought it was Rob, but I guess you set me straight!)


And I'm No Two.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

Regarding Tigh's speech about suicide bombings, the big difference to me has always been the difference between very slim chances of coming back alive and a clear intention of not. 

A very risky, daring, and almost certain to fail mission like Doolittle's raid over Tokyo in WWII is vastly different than loading up a Japanese Zero with as much explosives as it can hold and sending the boys off to blow themselves up. 

I understand that the difference is fine, and some people might view it as splitting hairs, but the contrast is clear to me. If the soldier miraculously beats the odds and returns from his mission everyone is happy, if the suicide bomber inflicts major damage but fails to take his own life (as does occasionally happen here in the real world) he is met with shame and disgrace.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Crrink said:


> _(...)_ if the suicide bomber inflicts major damage but fails to take his own life _(...)_ he is met with shame and disgrace.


Are you suggesting that if the suicide-bomber-cop had not died he would have been disgraced?


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## Domandred (Sep 8, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But I factored in the fact that Tigh looked bordeline (?) insane when he was making that comparison...
> 
> I think the presentation was a lot more complicated and nuanced than you're giving it credit for.


Two more pages of posts that I haven't read. Yea I'll give you that Tigh is partially insane. And he did say abort if Baltar wasn't there, and the message that he wasn't going to be was missed.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

tivogurl said:


> Other than the fact that US troops (a) aren't trying to convert Iraqis to Christianity, (b) don't have masked squads round up people in the middle of the night, (c) don't control Iraq's food supply and use it as a tool of terror and intimidation, and (d) aren't making people disappear without a trace, it's a perfect allegory of the Iraq war. If Moore really believes these things are being done he's a moonbat lunatic of the highest order, otherwise his attempts to link the events on BSG to the Iraq war are simply barely-disguised slander.


I think the idea is to look at it from the locals' perspective. Of course we aren't really that bad, but it may look that way to the locals. For one thing, I think that if you replace "Christianity" with "secular western Democracy" you'll find that there's more of a parallel there. And we do conduct raids, round up prisoners for interrogation, etc.; we just don't bother with the masks. The food scarcity issue isn't deliberate on our part, but it would be easy for suspicious locals to jump to that conclusion. The last one is a bit tricky; AFAIK we don't "disappear" people, but if someone gets arrested it may not be immediately obvious to family members where they were taken, etc.

In any case, the point is to posit the extreme case where resistance is clearly justified, and then explore whether specific insurgent tactics would ever be justified in such a scenario. Basically cutting up the moral argument into separate pieces to be examined individually.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Vito the TiVo said:


> I don't see how people thought it was muddled - "in medias res" - starting the story in the middle. Its a well known story telling technique, and we leaped four months from the finale to the premiere, so of course there is catching up to be done. You don't have to understand every moment of what you're seeing in the beginning. You don't have to. You're not meant to.


Um, when you have the alternative of changing the channel that is a bad story telling technique. Also bad when you are getting new viewers from a media blitz from TV Guide to Sunday supplements.

Also, they never really filled in the pieces. Usually when you do a jump in the middle of the story, you do exposition in conversation or flashbacks to fill in the gaps. They didn't do that.

The show only got better because it settled into telling a story. It never filled in the gaps and the story it told was good enough to forgive the early muddled mess.

Oh, and a four month jump from the season ender to the season opener ON TOP OF a one year jump in the last 20 minutes of the season ender? Come on. That is taking liberty with your audience and if this show hadn't had such a strong background and strong following, it would have lost big time.

I seem to remember a lot of debate at the end of last season about if the jump forward was real or not. Hardly the stuff of great story telling when your loyal audience isn't sure what it just saw.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> Or, and this a huge stretch, maybe they disagree with you.
> 
> I got no impression the show was muddled and had an easy time following it. That was one of the most riveting and well-made episodes of the entire series.


Well, whoopee for you.

The first half hour was BAD story telling. Believe me, when *I* am having trouble following who is who, it is bad story telling. I don't get confused easily.

And, another criticism. I had to laugh out loud at the scenes with the multiple Spylons. That was just silly. I think limiting the number of Spylon models is a mistake as well. It is laughable watching the same face Spylon's arguing with each other then talking in the plural "together."


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

When will Xena be nekkers?


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## Domandred (Sep 8, 2006)

Crrink said:


> Regarding Tigh's speech about suicide bombings, the big difference to me has always been the difference between very slim chances of coming back alive and a clear intention of not.
> 
> A very risky, daring, and almost certain to fail mission like Doolittle's raid over Tokyo in WWII is vastly different than loading up a Japanese Zero with as much explosives as it can hold and sending the boys off to blow themselves up.


I'm glad somone mentioned this as this is exactly what I was talking about.

I had less of a problem with the Academy because it was a military target, the primary stated objective was Baltar and from the looks of it that was the only way they were getting a chance at him, they said abort if Baltar wasn't there, and finally it is entirely possible Duck was going to/did go through with it reguardless of being told not to or not.

Marketplaces on the other hand does nothing for the colonials. It's a civilan target, with no military besides the random centurion patrol or skinjob stopping by to get a bite to eat. Mostly it would be civilians, the very people Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders are trying to get together and help save. The only thing it accomplishes is greater blowback from the cylons.

That is the difference, besides the one-way "suicide" mission having a very very slight chance of coming home in one piece.

No matter my feelings on the matter one way or another I do believe that the story worked. Yes RDM has his own politics (we've seen that with the abortion issue) however RDM is smart enough to present both sides of the issue instead of just saying his and expecting people to swallow it.

In abortion we see an ex-President that is most definitely pro-choice for most of the same pro-choice talking points but outlaws abortion because the human race must survive and at the rate they are going it will be exinct in 17(?) years just because of the birth to death rate. Suddenly there was a greater issue then the basic "right to choose" arguements.

In the suicide bombings issue we see the same type of thing. Arguements presented on both sides instead of just the one side saying to the viewing audience "this is how it is", and presenting the issues in an intelligent fashion.

Because RDM has been good at presenting both sides and his characters have occasionally made different decisions then he would have made politically then I do not fault him for it and definitely doesn't cause me to not watch the show.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I had no trouble following any of it. Seemed clear to me.

/shrug


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

quango said:


> If you're reading it as an allegory for current events, you probably have an incredibly limited knowledge of human history, although I suppose you could take one or two snippets and say they have something in common with current events.


Right, although there are more than one or two snippets. If every element of the show had a parallel with current events, this episode would have been really bad. Instead, there seem to be parallels with modern as well as past (e.g., WWII) events, as well as elements unique to the show.



Big_Daddy said:


> The colonials are not the Iraqi insurgency. The cylons are not America.


There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that Moore at least wanted the viewers to consider this. IMO, the point was a little too deliberate.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> I had no trouble following any of it. Seemed clear to me.
> 
> /shrug


I agree.


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

DLiquid said:


> I agree.


Same here........didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going on!


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

At least now that the season has started we don't have to watch any more Battlestar Nickleback ads.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

hefe said:


> And I'm No Two.


I agree as well. BSG has always been a drama first, sci-fi second to me. As long as they continue to make good tv, I don't think they should feel any obligation to define it as any genre. Matter of fact, I would be disappointed to know that they were writing scenes with the thought of "is this sci-fi enough, is this too drama-ish?" Just write good tv and it is what it is, which is what it seems they are doing so far.


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## myriadian (Sep 20, 2002)

i read all 5 or 6 pages of comments before posting. i'm a little surprised by some of the comments. the show has always been about the internal politics of the colonies and since the cylon attack, the balance between the military and the colonial government. the choice of how to survive, under military rule or try to continue with the normal civilian government. 

sure, the show seems to mirror, distortedly, some current events in our world, but i think more than anything else it's just showing a route that BSG's history has taken. i do think that there is some unvoiced stress amongst everyone though. rossalyn's objection to tigh should have been about the killing of humans, because there are so few of them now. this was a large point made in season 1 and 2, i think. i would think that it would come up when 200 humans were going to be killed, i think the count should now be under 38,000.

what does puzzle me about the scenes we saw were the lack of fields with crops or even personal gardens. where is the food coming from for the last 16 months to feed the humans? just from stores? that would be a bad use of precious resources.

i wonder, do spylons need to eat? hmmm.

i also was dismayed to see apolla all porky! oh to mourn the pecs and abs from seasons past!!

i do think kara is totally playing along. there's no way she would have just reversed her thinking and feelings about her situation.

about tigh, he isn't insane, he's just himself. he always makes poor decisions in a desperate attempt to be 'the big man' in any situation. he's calculating in his little brain how to play his role and elicit an emotional response to follow him.

tighs wife may not be so bad. she's doing what she's always done and using her only skill to get what she wants. having no power herself, she bonks those with power, for fun, sport, or with a purpose in mind. her tool isn't her mind. 

i was grousing last year about the 1yr jump ahead in time but i guess i either don't care now or i've dealt with it. (LOTS of therapy  ) so another 4 months didn't bother me. i do like the style of storytelling where you start in the middle. that's how i like to do alot of things anyway. i don't necessarily like being led along and handheld. but that's a purely personal preference.

i think a big question is how might sharon react when she discovers that her baby didnt' die and she was lied to. 

so, all in all, still a good show. but i would prefer they get back to blowing up cylon battlestars. they go boom so nice 

M.


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Um, when you have the alternative of changing the channel that is a bad story telling technique. Also bad when you are getting new viewers from a media blitz from TV Guide to Sunday supplements.


Television would be a wasteland if writers only worried about channels changing. And the media blitz is Sci-Fi's idea, not RDM. If they had recapped everything and brought brand new people up to speed, it would have alienated the core audience. For a bad example of doing this, see the "Alias" superbowl episode.



> Also, they never really filled in the pieces. Usually when you do a jump in the middle of the story, you do exposition in conversation or flashbacks to fill in the gaps. They didn't do that.


Flashbacks would have been pandering on the worst possible level. And believe me, you're going to continue to have a lot of exposition on what has happened throughout the season. They just didn't front load an hour telling backstory.



> I seem to remember a lot of debate at the end of last season about if the jump forward was real or not. Hardly the stuff of great story telling when your loyal audience isn't sure what it just saw.


And that was 100% deliberate. RDM put the leap ahead not between seasons or episodes or even acts. He put it in the middle of the act. Its a bold move that storytellers don't usually attempt because it goes against what viewers expect. But that's what this show does deliberately all the time. People don't know how to see it at first because they are not used it. But the safe beats of an SG1 episode isn't enough for this series.

:up: for no more Nickelback ads. "Smith" indirectly mocked it in the second episode, when a character stole a hummer, heard that song on the stereo, grimaced and threw the CD out the window. And that show was so good. 

Bottom line, and its passe to say it now, but if you don't like it, seriously go enjoy something else. Life is too short. I love this show, number on my season pass, others do too, and Sci-Fi clearly believes that this season will be even better with the confidence that they've show with their ad buy and pulling off all other original programming for BG's run.

I would just love to come here and discuss the actual content of the episodes, rather than simply read some of the same people restating over and over and over again about how it confused them or they were offended by the plotlines. If you think this is or is going to be a simple action show with good guys versus bad guys, then you haven't been watching the same show I have and you're going to be disappointed.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

What part of the first half is confusing? It flowed very smoothly to me. Oh well.


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## rmracing (Mar 4, 2002)

mjh said:


> I don't want it on NBC. It's perfect right where it is. Being on SciFi allows it to be edgier. Move it to one of the major networks and it's going to lose it's edge. It's going to get tamed in order not to offend.
> 
> I prefer it right where it is, thanks.


NBC would probably mean high def... that would be very nice.

The whole parallel to Iraq is a bit disturbing to me. On Battlestar, the insurgency is the good guys... I didn't know NBC and Sci Fi were affiliated, but if you look at the political parallels, it all makes sense.

Either way, the show kicks ass.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

myriadian said:


> about tigh, he isn't insane, he's just himself. he always makes poor decisions in a desperate attempt to be 'the big man' in any situation. he's calculating in his little brain how to play his role and elicit an emotional response to follow him.


He is still Tigh. A Tigh that's been tortured and lost an eye for his trouble. A Tigh that's convinced that the Man In Charge (Adama) is coming back, and it's up to Tigh to make sure Adama can do it. It's a Tigh who views any means is acceptable towards his ends.

This is the most compelling - and disturbing - Tigh has ever been. I love it.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by quango
> If you're reading it as an allegory for current events, you probably have an incredibly limited knowledge of human history, although I suppose you could take one or two snippets and say they have something in common with current events.
> Quote:
> ...


Here are some quotes from Moore in an interview:

At the end of season two, producer Ronald D. Moore and his writers ripped up the series' status quo. The human fleet settled on an obscure planet they dubbed New Caprica, lived there for a year in relative peace, then faced an invasion by the Cylons.

The new season picks up four months into the occupation, and despite the Cylons' claims of benevolence, the largest structure visible anywhere is the new jail. Humans are routinely rounded up without cause, others are branded as traitors for joining a Cylon-organized police force, and the resistance, led by former prisoner and torture victim Colonel Tigh (Michael Hogan), is trying out suicide bombings.

If the humans were originally us and the Cylons were Al Qaeda, how did the Cylons become America while we became the Iraqis?

"That's only one of the parallels that we played," insists Moore. "Certainly, that parallel is there, but there's also elements of Vichy France and the West Bank. Clearly, the war in Iraq plays into what we're doing. We didn't really design it as a polemic about Iraq, but it is informed by Iraq."

Within the narrow slice of the population willing to look past the show's title and realize it's one of the best pure dramas on television, debate rages over what the show's politics are, or what they should be.

"There's a healthy strain of the fanbase online that's interested in the politics and argues vociferously," says Moore. "There's definitely some who think I'm part of the 'blame America' crowd, and those who think it's a military recruiting poster."

That confusion tells Moore that he's doing his job, that he's making a character drama with a political bent instead of a political screed with interesting characters attached, and that he's succeeding in dramatizing and humanizing the different points of view on the show. (He can even justify the Cylons genocide of most of the human race if you want.)
"I try to look at all of the characters of the show, and try to write from their perspective," he says.

Through much of the first two seasons, Moore dramatized the security vs. freedom debate through Bill Adama (Edward James Olmos), leader of the post-Cylon human military, and Laura Roslin, the education secretary who fell into the job of president. Once the hawk vs. dove lines were clear, Moore began crossing them
"During the first and second seasons, you saw Laura grow more authoritarian, you saw her chuck people out of airlocks just in case they were a threat. She would clamp down on dissent, and Adama was progressively more unhappy with that. There was the point where Laura begins to believe her faith and religion guide her presidency, and the show validated that -- we suggested that her spiritual visions were real."

Moore, whose father served in Vietnam and who was himself in the Navy ROTC for most of college, tries his best to let the story dictate what the characters say and do, instead of what he personally believes.

"I don't look at the show as an opportunity to platform my political beliefs, but I'm not naive enough to think my political outlook doesn't influence the show. It's mostly about trying to be true to what the characters are about. The politics of it should only relate to how it works in the story. I had Laura ban abortion at one point, which doesn't line up with my politics at all."

Spending so much time inside the head of a wartime president had an unexpected side effect: "Writing the character and the situation, I have more sympathy for George W. Bush. I don't hate the man. I disagree violently with many of his decisions, but I can kind of go to a place where I understand where he's working from, the pressure of that office, the security of millions riding on your every decision."

After two years of fleet on the run stories and space battles, Moore changed things up to keep himself and viewers from getting bored. The show will eventually return to its basic structure, but in the meantime, the story of a military occupation gave him fodder for his favored pastime of forcing viewers to question their own beliefs and loyalties.

With the suicide bombings, "we wanted to not have a real simple answer about it, wanted you to be horrified, but at the same time see that it worked." He's especially fond of a scene where Laura debates the practice with her successor -- and Cylon collaborator -- Gaius Baltar (James Callis) because "the lines are blurred. Whose side are you on in that room?"


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

I loved it when Tigh found out Sharon was leading the mission and he concluded that the old man had gone crazy.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

It still bothers me that Sharon is still alive. Shoulda killed her. And Kara should kill the cylon-human kid too (Although I wonder if it's really part Cylon, or just a human kid that he's using to manipulate Kara. And if it's only part Cylon, can it be resurrected?).



Big_Daddy said:


> It was very interesting to see Tom Zarick at the end, his response to the Cylons, and how he now has a lot in common with Rosalyn...


I really loved that part. I guess because he seems like a guy that can get things done. He's a conniving bastard. But, he's a Cylon-hating conniving bastard. And a good man to have in a resistance. Unless he's dead. (Maybe the gunfire was from the human police, turning against the Cylons? Were they even carrying weapons? Do the Cylon guns have their own sound effects?)


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Leaving sharon alive and contained is safer than killing her, because Cylon's don't die.

I don't agree with trusting her though, unless Adama has something up his sleeve and doesn't really trust her.


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## pestilence (Jul 22, 2006)

boomers baby wasnt stolen by adama it was stolen by the president and according to the promos for the future episodes they (the cylons) find out the baby is still alive. What will be interesting is what sharon does when SHE finds out. Will she rejects humans for decieving her or will she forgive them.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

pestilence said:


> boomers baby wasnt stolen by adama it was stolen by the president and according to the promos for the future episodes [snip]


 I stopped reading right there because I don't want to know about promos for future episodes. I'd appreciate it if discussion of promos were spoilerized. I think a few other people feel the same way. Thanks.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

myriadian said:


> what does puzzle me about the scenes we saw were the lack of fields with crops or even personal gardens. where is the food coming from for the last 16 months to feed the humans?


In one of the webEpisdoes, one of the cylons told Jammer that there are farms on the planet worked together by both humans and cylons.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

pestilence said:


> ...according to the promos for the future episodes they (the cylons) find out the...


Dang it!!!  Please put this in spoiler tags!!!!


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Anubys said:


> the firing squad sequence was very much like "The Great Escape"...anyone else notice that?


Due to Friday night conflicts, this wasn't recorded until this morning, so I may be smeeking.

As soon as Al told them they could get out to stretch their legs I thought "DON'T THEY HAVE THE GREAT ESCAPE ON CAPRICA????"


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> Are you suggesting that if the suicide-bomber-cop had not died he would have been disgraced?


I was more talking about the expectations suicide bombers here in the real world have historically faced.

Since the BSG universe mysteriously seems to have many of the life lessons our own does (), I thought this might explain some of the shock that people like Roslyn express when listening to Tigh's plans.

As for the BSG universe, my guess is that everyone would have been glad if Duck had found a way to kill a whole bunch of collaborators and skin jobs and still make it back alive, but until we see more of the new Tigh I can't say for sure. 
I don't *think* he's gone that far off the deep end, but who knows what the writers have planned?


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

If they really wanted to parallel Iraq, there'd be like 200 - 300 Cylons total trying to police the entire population.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vman41 said:


> If they really wanted to parallel Iraq, there'd be like 200 - 300 Cylons total trying to police the entire population.


LOL 

I do disagree with people who say Tigh is crazy...he has a tortured soul because of the strain of the horrible decisions he has to make...he's a pure military man and he is making life and death decisions with the only goal being a WIN...I thought it was very well done and the actor carried it off brilliantly...

Earlier in season 1 & 2, we saw that he is a fantastic war-time officer but a disaster during "peace"...right now, he's perfectly in his element doing what has to be done...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Earlier in season 1 & 2, we saw that he is a fantastic war-time officer but a disaster during "peace"...right now, he's perfectly in his element doing what has to be done...


No, I'd say we saw he was a fantastic second-in-command, but a disaster when he was in charge himself. And now he's in charge himself...

His problem seems to be that when he is making his own decisions, he has no sense of morality whatsoever. He and Adama make a good team because he can give advice, but Adama serves as their conscience.

He is not in his element at all right now, because he is doing what he does best when he's in charge--becoming a war criminal. Adama forgave his excesses last time. I wonder if he will this time, when Tigh has gone so far over the line?


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## RichardHead (Nov 17, 2003)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> The only way this show is going to survive is for them to get back in Space, no one wants to see this junk, This is a Sci Fi show not a soap opera. imho


It's not a soap opera but it is a space opera. They've only been on the ground for what ... three episodes? They'll be off planet soon enough.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I would really like to hear from the whiners what they would like to see. The original star trek was best when it paralled the issues of our world. IE Romulans = Chinese, Klingons = Russians, and the federation = Nato Alliance. Subsequent versions branched out on this. Twilight zone and the rest did the same thing.

Of course any show with political overtones is going to annoy you if you dont agee. I also dont think they are saying anythng is right or wrong. Is it even clear yet whether the cylons or the humans are the good guys. We have pretty much only seen one point of view so far.


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## Hersheytx (Feb 15, 2003)

hefe said:


> I don't think it came across well, but I assumed it was the nature of the targets with all the civilian casualties.


I am thinking that they are also trying to SAVE the human race. Having them commit suicide and take some toasters with them is hitting them from both sides of the equation.

Sure puts terrorism in a different light when you see it in this show.

Gosh I hope they keep this show for at least 5 years. PLEASE!


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## Hersheytx (Feb 15, 2003)

dswallow said:


> You all apparently were watching a completely different show than what DirecTV aired in the SciFi channel's position. Or else the final 60-70 minutes was about 6,000% better than the first 50.


I would really have to see a list of shows you have hated and loved over the last 15 + years. That would be the only way I could judge your statement about BSG premeire episode.
I have friends that would not even watch BSG after the first hour of the miniseries.
I then bought all the DVDs and set them on there doorstep. After a week I call them and ask if the package was received. Not one has ever returned the package.
I sure hope you will continue watching. Lets Keep BSG alive!


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Figaro said:


> Poor fat Apollo.


ROFLMAO


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Not really understanding all uproar about the political nature of the show. It has always been like this. Whether dealing with military coups, religion, or abortion. The writers don't seem to be picking any sides, they are just putting the ideas out there to get people thinking about them. TV writers do this all the time. 

If you don't believe me, go back and watch Deep Space Nine. Particularly the episodes when the Dominion threat is really beginning to grow. You know the episodes with the random blood screenings and Starfleet martial law on Earth. Though written many years ago those episodes bring up some very current subjects of debate.


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

I wish they would stop saying the FRAK word. Yeah, I know, its slightly better than using the other F word. But they could do every set of dialog without it and still get the impact they want. Its time for the writers to grow up a little bit.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Hersheytx said:


> I then bought all the DVDs and set them on there doorstep.


I still find it hard to believe that people really do this. What do you have to gain by spending your own money to get someone else interested in a TV show? Are you on NBC's payroll?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

DouglasPHill said:


> I wish they would stop saying the FRAK word. Yeah, I know, its slightly better than using the other F word. But they could do every set of dialog without it and still get the impact they want. Its time for the writers to grow up a little bit.


Not to mention the fact that because it is cable, they just go ahead and use the _real_ f word. In the first two seasons it had impact but now everyone is using it every other sentence, it gets annoying.

For the record, I prefer "frell" (from Farscape) - it sounds more cute and flowery.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Hersheytx said:


> I would really have to see a list of shows you have hated and loved over the last 15 + years. That would be the only way I could judge your statement about BSG premeire episode.
> I have friends that would not even watch BSG after the first hour of the miniseries.
> I then bought all the DVDs and set them on there doorstep. After a week I call them and ask if the package was received. Not one has ever returned the package.
> I sure hope you will continue watching. Lets Keep BSG alive!


I hated the first hour of BSG! I hated the first hour of all incarnations of Star Trek. I couldn't get past the first hour of the original Star Wars Trilogy. Please convince me to like them in the same manner that you convinced your friends.


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## LordFett (May 6, 2005)

eddyj said:


> So what was the significance of the exchange and the hand signal between Roslyn and the VP (can't remember his name). They say how Gaius was pissed at them, and they show her hands in a strange position. But if there is something meaningful there, I totally missed it.


If you're talking about the exchange in the back of the execution truck she showed him that her ring finger was missing. I had to back it up twice and see before I totally got it.

How did KC hurt her head? I kind of zoned and when I snapped back to reality Kara was looking for her and then the puddle of blood. By the time I thought to rewind I was too far past and didn't want to. I'll rewatch tonight with the podcast I hope to figure it out then.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

LordFett said:


> How did KC hurt her head? I kind of zoned and when I snapped back to reality Kara was looking for her and then the puddle of blood. By the time I thought to rewind I was too far past and didn't want to. I'll rewatch tonight with the podcast I hope to figure it out then.


She fell down the stairs when Kara was hiding in the bathroom.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> She fell down the stairs when Kara was hiding in the bathroom.


No way. "Daddy" pushed her in order to break Starbuck.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

LordFett said:


> If you're talking about the exchange in the back of the execution truck she showed him that her ring finger was missing. I had to back it up twice and see before I totally got it.


I didn't pick up on that. I just thought that they were showing eachother the cuffs. So from now on they are going to have to digitally remove her digit?


----------



## rich (Mar 18, 2002)

After seeing this episode I am wondering how Baltar will ever be able to return to the Colonial Fleet. I mean, he led them into this mess, he signed the death order for lots of people, and Tigh has sworn revenge on him.

In TOS Baltar lived with the Cylons, so maybe this is a way of making that happen.


----------



## LordFett (May 6, 2005)

Figaro said:


> So from now on they are going to have to digitally remove her digit?


If she survived the firing squad. Also remember she has cylon blood, maybe there are nanomachines to fix it. I was surprised it wasn't bandaged like Tigh's eye. I'll try and get a screenie tonight.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

rich said:


> In TOS Baltar lived with the Cylons, so maybe this is a way of making that happen.


I've gotten the impression almost from the beginning that Baltar's arc is to get him to where the Baltar of the original series was in a psychologically plausible fashion...


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Wait, Roslyn is missing a finger?


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

LordFett said:


> If she survived the firing squad. Also remember she has cylon blood, maybe there are nanomachines to fix it. I was surprised it wasn't bandaged like Tigh's eye. I'll try and get a screenie tonight.


You really think that she doesn't? I bet ol' Tom redeemed himself and took one for her.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

No, Tom and Roslyn will escape. Interesting how his protector instinct came out.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Mixed feelings. Some people in this thread are sadly misinformed about current events, though. We don't put on masks and raid homes in the middle of the night? Uh, yes we do. Try watching just about any documentary about the war in iraq. That's not really a fascist tactic if you have a legitimate reason for doing the raid (not saying the cylons did). And gee, is it really hard to see parallels with gitmo when they repeatedly mention detaining people for questioning for an unlimited amount of time?

Anyway, I didn't mind that stuff. I felt it was done well enough, and relatively double-edged, unlike something like V for Vendetta which was absolute tripe.

The most jarring thing to me is the prison and the negative turn of the cylons. Even though the reboot finale was jarring, at that point I still felt that the cylons seemed to have become relatively benevolent. Now we fast forward to months later and everything they told us from the finale is apparently false. So that makes almost a second reboot.

That's the annoying thing to me. I feel like they kind of cheated a little there.

Still, I enjoyed a large chunk of the episodes despite feeling like Ronny boy will just change things around on a whim.

What would I have done as Baltar? Tough question... I probably would have signed it, knowing that I can probably do more to disrupt the cylons alive than dead. But maybe I'm a little gritty-minded having seen The Departed. 

It seemed like he is finally "over" the loss of the baby and ready to start questioning the cylons. That was quite a long binge there.

Looks like cylon security is pretty pathetic. They don't even pat people down.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

rich said:


> After seeing this episode I am wondering how Baltar will ever be able to return to the Colonial Fleet. I mean, he led them into this mess, he signed the death order for lots of people, and Tigh has sworn revenge on him.
> 
> In TOS Baltar lived with the Cylons, so maybe this is a way of making that happen.


Maybe Baltar is the one that is giving the info to Gaita(? not sure of his name) to give to the resistance. This is the only way I see that Baltar could survive.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Or baltar could do some "good guy" stuff between now and when someone would have a chance to kill him.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> The most jarring thing to me is the prison and the negative turn of the cylons. Even though the reboot finale was jarring, at that point I still felt that the cylons seemed to have become relatively benevolent. Now we fast forward to months later and everything they told us from the finale is apparently false. So that makes almost a second reboot.


Some cylons want to be benevolent and learn to live with the humans, but it looks like they are outvoted by the other faction that believes the only way to coexist with the humans is to grind them under their heel, until they have no will to fight, and accept the cylon religion.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

hefe said:


> It's not different from the perspective the attacker...but it depends what you are attacking. A military target, for example, or a something like a marketplace, as was discussed in the show and objected to by everyone but Tigh.





Crrink said:


> Regarding Tigh's speech about suicide bombings, the big difference to me has always been the difference between very slim chances of coming back alive and a clear intention of not.
> 
> A very risky, daring, and almost certain to fail mission like Doolittle's raid over Tokyo in WWII is vastly different than loading up a Japanese Zero with as much explosives as it can hold and sending the boys off to blow themselves up.
> 
> I understand that the difference is fine, and some people might view it as splitting hairs, but the contrast is clear to me. If the soldier miraculously beats the odds and returns from his mission everyone is happy, if the suicide bomber inflicts major damage but fails to take his own life (as does occasionally happen here in the real world) he is met with shame and disgrace.


I would point out a probably more significant difference. Virtually all military "suicide" missions that are ordered are defensive in nature (At least in Western style militaries; clearly the Japanese and Russians have historically approached this differently). And the ones without orders are done to save your buddies.

The defensive ones would be: "We are about to be cut off an overrun. I need you two to take these machine guns and hold this position for 30 minute or until overrun so that we can fall back".
"That basestar is going to slaughter us; I need you to take your Vipers to disable it any way you can so the fleet can survive and escape."

Dolittle's raid was originally going to be less risky, they had escape fields and plans to get back. They weren't landing on the carriers, but they had a good hope the crew getting home eventually. They gave up some of that certainty when they launched early. 
A fishing vessel spotted the carriers, and they feared that if the carriers kept coming they would be found and sunk. Launching the bombers early allowed the carriers to turn back, and cleared the deck to allow other flight operations (like fighters)

The without orders "suicide" attack would be like Rodger Young who ignored orders to carry out a one man attack on several Japanese machine guns nests to keep them from killing the rest of his squad.

In either case, while the odds say you are almost certain not to come back, you are risking your life to save the lives of your buddies, or crew, or unit. And you aren't killing yourself, the enemy kills you. Yes, dead is dead, but there is a difference.

With suicide bombing you aren't saving your unit, or buddies. You are making an offensive attack; trying to kill as many people (or Cylons) as possible. You are deliberately killing yourself to attack others.


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

Figaro said:


> No way. "Daddy" pushed her in order to break Starbuck.


You hit the nail on the head. No pun intended,lol.

Also I'm surprised no one brought these few interesting things up. Six in Baltars mind only appeared after Cap Six got shot. Also no one has mentioned Apollo is suppose to take the Pegasus & the remaining civilian fleet in search of Earth. I just hope he checks in to weight watchers when he get there,lol


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I wasnt riveted by the show. To me it was kinda meh after the webisodes. We watched all the webisodes just before the show. I kinda expected a little more continuity between them and the first episode, buy we didnt see Jammer joining the Cylons or using that little chip he had. We also dont really know what side he is on. 

For me politics in shows stay compartmentalized. I watch the show placing myself in the action and drama as an observer reveling in the fantasy of the experience. I dont analyze whether current events has a bearing on the plot unless its a complete slap in the face obvious attempt outside of the logical progression of events in the show.

In this season Tigh is behaving like he knows what he is doing. His decisions arent being influenced by his wife and he seems to be making the right decisions. Let us remember that Duck wanted that assignment because of his depression. Tigh capitalized on that and let him do it rather than coddle him and talk him out of it and from what I have seen it didnt look like anyone was being ordered to go on a suicide mission. 

Spylon women are hot so that human males will try to jump them. Part of the cylon need to please god involves procreation. If I had to guess Id say that the female Spylons are all later models designed after they discovered procreation within the species wasnt happening. Theres Six and Sharon is what? 9 or 10? Of course in Sixs case shes clearly designed as an infiltration bot. &#61514;

I also see the collaborators forming up along four different lines. Those that like the occupation and refuse to leave, those that are actively using their positions to fight back, those that just joined because life would be easier for them, and those that want to aid the cylons and have bought into the line of humans policing themselves. That last group should be the ones that get the axe, so to speak.

Ellen Tigh is actually doing what she did all along. When the Col. is out of favor/not a mover and shaker, she goes elsewhere and has fun catting around. Theres no question that she isnt committed to Tigh, I think she is. She is also an opportunist and if she can get special treatment by doing the swirl she will, she will also sell out anyone as long as Tigh isnt affected. For the most part Ellen Tigh serves herself and no one else, outside of her attachment to the Col.

One thing that disturbed me about the show was the number of people that were imprisoned that seemed to instantly become unbalanced. Rosalyn, The chiefs wife, Starbuck, and even Tigh to a certain extent. All we saw was a single scene with them in a prison cell falling apart without any explanation as to why. The one that deserved to be unbalanced because he was obviously tortured was Tigh and he seemed to do the best of all of them. I guess I dont have a firm grasp of where RDM is going with these peoples stability.

I also liked it that unlike every other show where the season premiere wraps up the previous show in an hour, we actually are going to get some more of the occupation. RDM isnt using a reset button at the end to get them into space. 

Im also in the camp that the Daddy or some other cylon pushed the little girl down the steps to get to Starbuck. 

RDM is obviously setting the stage for Baltar to be the man from the original series. Hes widely reviled by the population and will be left behind when the revolution comes. At that point hell be relegated to Sixs pet human (much as he is now) that tags along with the cylon fleet. As for controlling a basestar and going after the humans, hell have to make a big switch in thinking. If it happens though itll be because they left him and in his delusional emotional state he wants them all dead for it, rather than the power motive of the original Baltar.

The one thing this plot line will fix is the refugees desire to stop on another planet. Once back in space no one will want to stop until they get to earth.


----------



## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

jehma said:


> I thought this episode was great and it left me eager for next week. It did start out a bit slow, but they needed to set the stage for what's coming next.
> 
> I absolutely think Starbuck is faking. Her reaction to the girl opening her eyes was too much to be natural, and then putting her hand on the Cylon was completely overboard. My prediction is that she's going to be a major player in the rescue, maybe even being the one to get the flight keys they were discussing on Galactica.


I was thinking about this constantly yesterday and after re-watching the scene thought that she really believes this daughter is hers, and cares about her.

I think it plays into her favor. She does not want the cylon but has to get him to trust her, so she can eventually escape with her new daughter.

If you saw her face when she found the child on the ground with blood, it was obvious she never wanted her hurt and she was deeply worried.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

GregA said:


> Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but it's obviously a hacked-up, Anti-American, political moral relativistic protest of the war in Iraq.


If you're going to casually juxtapose "anti-american" with "protest of the war in Iraq" as if one equates with the other, you're not going to do much for the credibility of your opinions....



> They've got the humans as "insurgents" against the oppressive invading machines, "turncoat" humans volunteering as a police force in conjunction with the Cylons, humans "with nothing left to live for" volunteering to strap on explosives and becoming hero suicide bombers, "insurgents" creating improvised explosive devices and setting them off, constant reminders that "God" sent the Cylons to convert the heathen humans, and Madame President declaring that anyoen cooperating with the invaders is a traitor and the only way to get the Cylons is to hit a "high profile target".


Thanks, we all "missed" that "watching" it the "first" time.



GregA said:


> Oops! My mistake! I thought this was an open forum for thoughtful exchanges of ideas and opinions,


It is, and we eagerly await your first thoughtful contribution.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Wait, Roslyn is missing a finger?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Vito the TiVo said:


> I don't see how people thought it was muddled - "in medias res" - starting the story in the middle. Its a well known story telling technique, and we leaped four months from the finale to the premiere, so of course there is catching up to be done. You don't have to understand every moment of what you're seeing in the beginning. You don't have to. You're not meant to.


That what the webisodes are for!


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

quango said:


> ....The motivations for the Cylons on New Caprica (which in and of themselves make no sense, as presented to date)......


THANK YOU! I was wondering if I was the only one who couldn't figure out why the Cylon's were doing any of this.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Okay, moving past the episode's supposed or real political agenda...

What's going on with Kacey? I thought cylons and humans couldn't breed - hence the importance of Boomer and Helo's baby. But here's one that's allegedly a union between Starbuck and Leobon.

Is it really a cylon/human hybrid? Or pure human, only used as a tool to twist Starbuck?

And who expected her to wake up in a resurrection chamber after Starbuck found her on the stairs?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> At their creepiest, though, they take on the speech and mannerisms of fundamentalist Christians--apparently the scariest inference the writers could make.


Uh oh..... any minute now dbett's going to remind you that the islamic fundies are worse than the xtian fundies.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> And as for Ellen: I bet that no one will discover what she did...


Are you kidding? There's going to be videos of it on YouTube!


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> Leaving sharon alive and contained is safer than killing her, because Cylon's don't die.


In theory, if they wanted her permanently dead they could have killed her after they destroyed the resurection ship.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> With suicide bombing you aren't saving your unit, or buddies. You are making an offensive attack; trying to kill as many people (or Cylons) as possible. You are deliberately killing yourself to attack others.


I'm still not clear on how that's any worse than trying to kill other as many people as possible _without_ killing yourself.

Once you accept the premise that a certain target is a valid target for killing or destruction in the context of the war that is being fought, what's the difference if you bomb it with artillery or a person with a C4 vest?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I didn't interpet the episode to be that people object to suicide bombs, I interpreted it to be people objecting to killing their own kind.

Unamerican and anti-american aren't necessarily the same thing.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> The without orders "suicide" attack would be like Rodger Young who ignored orders to carry out a one man attack on several Japanese machine guns nests to keep them from killing the rest of his squad.


_
Lyrics to "The Ballad of Rodger Young,"

o, they've got no time for glory in the Infantry.
No, they've got no use for praises loudly sung,
But in every soldier's heart in all the Infantry
Shines the name, shines the name of Rodger Young.

Shines the name--Rodger Young!
Fought and died for the men he marched among.
To the everlasting glory of the Infantry
Lives the story of Private Rodger Young.

Caught in ambush lay a company of riflemen--
Just grenades against machine guns in the gloom--
Caught in ambush till this one of twenty riflemen
Volunteered, volunteered to meet his doom.

Volunteered, Rodger Young!
Fought and died for the men he marched among.
In the everlasting annals of the Infantry
Glows the last deed of Private Rodger Young.

It was he who drew the fire of the enemy
That a company of men might live to fight;
And before the deadly fire of the enemy
Stood the man, stood the man we hail tonight.

On the island of New Georgia in the Solomons,
Stands a simple wooden cross alone to tell
That beneath the silent coral of the Solomons,
Sleeps a man, sleeps a man remembered well.

Sleeps a man, Rodger Young,
Fought and died for the men he marched among.
In the everlasting spirit of the Infantry
Breathes the spirit of Private Rodger Young.

No, they've got no time for glory in the Infantry,
No, they've got no use for praises loudly sung,
But in every soldier's heart in all the Infantry
Shines the name, shines the name of Rodger Young.

Shines the name--Rodger Young!
Fought and died for the men he marched among.
To the everlasting glory of the Infantry
Lives the story of Private Rodger Young.

Frank Loesser 
_


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## ShinKen (Jul 6, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Wait, Roslyn is missing a finger?


It does not look like she is missing a finger. I looked at a screen capture of that scene and it looks like she has all of her fingers. You can see a portion of one thumb but not the other due to the angle.


----------



## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

This may be a smeek. I apologize if it is.

RIP BG



> Word has begun to circulate that NBC's acquisition of 'Battlestar Galactica' is in the "waiting for the ink to dry" phase at this moment, and an official announcement could be days away. The program, which returned for its third season last friday, continues to delight fans and critics alike. With Universal's involvement in the big reimagining, it was always a possibility that the program could be pulled to the network if it proved successful enough, and with the lashing NBC is taking over its fall line-up so far an ace-in-the-hole couldn't come at a better time.
> 
> The show will make the move to NBC as a mid-season replacement, possibly taking the slot currently occupied by "Studio 60" which would make sense given the genre-centric lead-in of heroes.
> 
> The question is: will NBC be tolerant of the quasi-political themes that BSG seems to take from the most controversial page of world events? In recent episodes, BSG has examined the flip side of insurgency, terrorists as freedom-fighters, and any number of edgy themes. In the small arena of cable, it is easy to get away with forays into these troubled waters; cable shows are expected to push the envelope to maintain any kind of viewership. On the big network, however, it may be seen as a statement of NBC's political alignment and in polarizing times such as these the concern may be that these themes could bring about the kind of controversy that drives viewers away. Of course, it could do just the opposite.


http://www.battlestargalacticasite.com/2006/10/bsg_to_nbc_can_it_survive.php


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> The only way this show is going to survive is for them to get back in Space, no one wants to see this junk, This is a Sci Fi show not a soap opera. imho


I finally got around to watching the episode last night. I'm losing interest, though I managed to sit through the whole episode - unlike my fiance who was bored and wandered off to catch Sunday night football. Previous episodes and plotlines was dramatic and suspenseful and frequently in Space, riveting stuff. Now it's kinda dull and hokey and I don't care for the direction the story is going. Maybe I'll watch Firefly (which I've never seen) on DVD instead.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

busyba said:


> I'm still not clear on how that's any worse than trying to kill other as many people as possible _without_ killing yourself.
> 
> Once you accept the premise that a certain target is a valid target for killing or destruction in the context of the war that is being fought, what's the difference if you bomb it with artillery or a person with a C4 vest?


Well, the main difference being the survival of the attacker, but aside from that, the philosophical difference is quite significant.
It's the same reason suicide is a different crime than murder.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

KungFuCow said:


> This may be a smeek. I apologize if it is.
> 
> RIP BG
> 
> http://www.battlestargalacticasite.com/2006/10/bsg_to_nbc_can_it_survive.php


Oh crap.

But wouldn't it be awkward to "start" a show on network prime time half way thru it's 3rd season? No one who isn't a sci-fi junkie will know what the hell is going on.


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## treyj (May 13, 2002)

I have to spoilerize my question because I guess it gives away stuff I saw on a preview:



Spoiler



I saw a preview where Xena was say "I'm losing my faith", and I read somewhere that they were going to permanently deactivate one of the models, and I'm assuming it will be the Xena model. I thought this was going to be in the season premier, but I guess it will be in a future episode?


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

I have a question about this show, tell me to hush and go away if needed.

I saw this episode and I was slightly interested, but think I was loosing a ton in not seeing previously shows or seasons. I take it this is one of those shows I need to go back to the beginning and watch the mini-series and the season episodes to get the full story?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Sadara said:


> I have a question about this show, tell me to hush and go away if needed.
> 
> I saw this episode and I was slightly interested, but think I was loosing a ton in not seeing previously shows or seasons. I take it this is one of those shows I need to go back to the beginning and watch the mini-series and the season episodes to get the full story?


Most definitely. It's too intricate to jump right in. Use some mental floss, forget everything you saw, and Netflix the mini, then seasons 1 and 2, all the while stockpiling new episodes on your TiVo. You'll thank us later.


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## Dweller (Aug 29, 2001)

Sadara said:


> I have a question about this show, tell me to hush and go away if needed.
> 
> I saw this episode and I was slightly interested, but think I was loosing a ton in not seeing previously shows or seasons. I take it this is one of those shows I need to go back to the beginning and watch the mini-series and the season episodes to get the full story?


There is a "story so far" recap episode on scifi.com that you may want to watch, but I would really suggest seeing the entire thing up to this point if you can. I would find it hard to jump in to BSG right now.


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## Royster (May 24, 2002)

Wow. I wait until Sunday to watch this and there's a huge thread. Of course I had to read it all. this was two hours of very compelling storytelling.

1. I was struck by the similarities of the human insurgency to the Iraqi insurgency. Tigh looks like a crazed religious fanatic. We want to think he's still the incompetent second-in-command who drniks too much. But he's been changed by his 4 months in prison. He smokes now and isn't himself anymore. The Chief with his full beard looks like someone you would want the TSA to give a full body search to. But they are set up to be sympathetic. The midnight roundups by hooded police forces reminds me of stories from Chile and Agentina of people disappearing in the middle of the night. We can understand any sympathize with a desire to strike back even if it involves a suicide attack.

Suicide attacks certainly have their place in Western military history. Most of warfare from the Civil War -- the first example of a modern, mechanized war -- to WWI involved people charging fortified positions with the desperate hope that perhaps 1 in 10 will survive to breech the defense. Wnyone going over the top in WWI knew that their chances of surviving were slim.

The spylons are upset by the suicide killings because they can't die. They resurrect themselves and probably get used to having died after a time or two. Someone deliberately choosing death without the sure knowledge of resurrection is beyond their grasp to understand.

The spylons were designed the way they were to avoid drawing undue attention to themselves. Yes Six and Boomer are stunning, but a male seeing them for the first time is not likely to remember their face.

The dirt and mud of the camp versus the apparent pristing nature of the valley are not unexpected. Anytime you get a large number of people in one place for a period of time, the place turns into a mudhole. The valley would too after just a week. The point is that the settlers aren't free to go where they wish. They are captive in the settlement.

In summary, compelling television tht makes is rethink the things we think we knew.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

How can you have a "1." and not a "2."?


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Royster said:


> Suicide attacks certainly have their place in Western military history. Most of warfare from the Civil War -- the first example of a modern, mechanized war -- to WWI involved people charging fortified positions with the desperate hope that perhaps 1 in 10 will survive to breech the defense. Anyone going over the top in WWI knew that their chances of surviving were slim.


This is probably the best example of what Tigh was talking about when he referred to sending men off to die in war.


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Most definitely. It's too intricate to jump right in. Use some mental floss, forget everything you saw, and Netflix the mini, then seasons 1 and 2, all the while stockpiling new episodes on your TiVo. You'll thank us later.


Good to know, I can see why it's a popular series based on that one episode, but there were some things I was confused about through part of the show. Took me half the show just to realize they were saying "frack", then was like is that the same as the other F word, finally figured it was. I think I wasted too much mental energy on that one word!


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

BTW, just noticed the thread title and was realizing that the episode(s) this past week were just that -- episodes. Multiple. Two. The premiere was actually a two parter, so we've seen S03E01 and S03E02 both already.

Not trying to nit pick but the next episode will be S03E03. Hopefully that'll be covered when the thread is opened for the next show. :up:


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

bdowell said:


> BTW, just noticed the thread title and was realizing that the episode(s) this past week were just that -- episodes. Multiple. Two. The premiere was actually a two parter, so we've seen S03E01 and S03E02 both already.
> 
> Not trying to nit pick but the next episode will be S03E03. Hopefully that'll be covered when the thread is opened for the next show. :up:


Yeah, shows with a 2-hour opener always do that. Besides, they ran the "adult content" slate at the top of the hour. Gee, wonder why? 

That's why I always go with show titles/dates and not season/episode numbers for thread titles.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

bdowell said:


> BTW, just noticed the thread title and was realizing that the episode(s) this past week were just that -- episodes. Multiple. Two. The premiere was actually a two parter, so we've seen S03E01 and S03E02 both already.
> 
> Not trying to nit pick but the next episode will be S03E03. Hopefully that'll be covered when the thread is opened for the next show. :up:


My TiVo picked it up as one contiguous 2 hr block, not two separate eps. That's prolly part of the confusion there.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

They package it like that so it's easier for reruns.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I was gonna just do the date and show name. No Idea why I didn't


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Gunnyman said:


> I was gonna just do the date and show name. No Idea why I didn't


No worries. Hopefully whoever starts the thread for the next show gets the reminder and catches the numbering. (Which does help keep you straight if you hit epguides.com or somewhere similar to catch up some.)


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## MassD (Sep 19, 2002)

Royster said:


> I was struck by the similarities of the human insurgency to the Iraqi insurgency.


Looking past the political rhetoric, we are witness to conditions that can push civilized people to commit uncivilized acts. Sure, it's easy for us to sit back and condemn anyone willing to strap on some plastic explosive and blow themselves up... but are we condeming the act because it's wrong, or are we condemning the act because it's against us?

I think this episode did a good job of showing both sides, from the perspective of the people forced to consider such things. It in no way, shape, or form should be construed as the writers on the show inserting a justification of terrorist attacks in Tel Aviv, or Baghdad... it only aims to ask the question "Why?".


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

MassD said:


> I think this episode did a good job of showing both sides, from the perspective of the people forced to consider such things. It in no way, shape, or form should be construed as the writers on the show inserting a justification of terrorist attacks in Tel Aviv, or Baghdad... it only aims to ask the question "Why?".


Furthermore, if you listen to the podcast, you can hear Moore himself describe the thinking behind the plot elements and discuss the similarities to currect events. I think after people heard him talk about it they'd be less apt to equate the situation and moral perspectives with current events.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

myriadian said:


> do think that there is some unvoiced stress amongst everyone though. rossalyn's objection to tigh should have been about the killing of humans, because there are so few of them now. this was a large point made in season 1 and 2, i think. i would think that it would come up when 200 humans were going to be killed, i think the count should now be under 38,000.


Could not agree more.

The real subtext to the suicide bomber objections was that each human life - when the entirety of the human race was now less than 40,000 and the vast majority of that now under armed occupation - was far too precious to be intentionally and voluntarily pissed away on a mission of questionable importance.


----------



## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

im a big bsg fan but to be in honest, i didn't like the premiere too much.. it just felt off .. could the episode scream "iraq" any louder... i think these two episodes suffered from bsg's own success and the mess they dug themselves in by settling on new caprica .. maybe in my head i expected more but i dunno.. i hope next week will be better


----------



## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

I'm beginning to think that the show is soon to be renamed "Battlestar Iraqtica" if this theme carries on any longer.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Big_Daddy said:


> What's going on with Kacey? I thought cylons and humans couldn't breed - hence the importance of Boomer and Helo's baby. But here's one that's allegedly a union between Starbuck and Leobon.


They cylons can't seem to get pregnant and they have a belief that the missing element may be a lack of love. Sending Boomer to be with Helo was an 'experiment' of their's where they felt if Boomer could get Helo to fall in love with her, then maybe she could then get pregnant. i.e., they believed the father can't impregnate if he doesn't love the mother.

The Starbuck baby, if really a hybrid, is a test tube baby made from embryos recovered from the breeding 'farm' that Starbuck was held captive at for a while. He specifially explained, just prior to introducing Kacey, about how they supposedly recovered Starbuck's embryos from wreckage of the 'farm'. Perhaps (emphasize "perhaps"), they don't have a problem making test tube babies, but only have a problem getting pregant through the natural act.


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

I was hoping that Kara would be strong enough to pick up that hybrid/chimera/abomination- whatever you want to call it -and swing it against the wall!

Starbuck- don't eat that steak. It's Canadian!!


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

5thcrewman said:


> I was hoping that Kara would be strong enough to pick up that hybrid/chimera/abomination- whatever you want to call it -and swing it against the wall!




But she's so CUTE!!!!



Actually, there was recently a scientific paper that discussed how the "cuteness" of babies in many species is actually a biological survival trait. Making babies cute helps trigger the instinct in adults to take care of the children.

This could also easily explain why Starbuck appears to be succumbing to this tactic.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Sherminator said:


> I'm beginning to think that the show is soon to be renamed "Battlestar Iraqtica" if this theme carries on any longer.


The theme is war and specifically occupation. Examples of which litter human history. There are aspects of other conflicts, other eras, other places and times reflected in the story. Not _just _modern day Iraq, but being a current event, it's easy to relate to.

But rest assured,


Spoiler



they will be ending this part of the story and returning to Galactica within another 4 or 5 episodes.


----------



## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

starbuck's story was actually pretty interesting to me ... and boy with the nice long blond hair .. starbuck looks hot!! i love it how the hairs of #6, lucy lawless, and starbuck look amazing in each and every scene haha..


----------



## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Figaro said:


> Not really understanding all uproar about the political nature of the show. It has always been like this. Whether dealing with military coups, religion, or abortion. The writers don't seem to be picking any sides, they are just putting the ideas out there to get people thinking about them. TV writers do this all the time.
> 
> If you don't believe me, go back and watch Deep Space Nine. Particularly the episodes when the Dominion threat is really beginning to grow. You know the episodes with the random blood screenings and Starfleet martial law on Earth. Though written many years ago those episodes bring up some very current subjects of debate.


You mean when they ripped off babylon 5?


----------



## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

terrible terrible just like the last 7-8 episodes. It is a shame the show was so great during season 2.0. I will continue to watch till the end with hopes of the show returning to what it was. From the cheesy starbuck jr. to the whole capiraqa stuff. To bad RM read to many of his own press clippings and tried to get to cute in an attempt to prove how great he is.


----------



## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

hefe said:


> The theme is war and specifically occupation. Examples of which litter human history. There are aspects of other conflicts, other eras, other places and times reflected in the story. Not _just _modern day Iraq, but being a current event, it's easy to relate to.
> 
> But rest assured
> 
> ...


Finally somebody who can see the "Big", "Total", and the "Complete Picture" !!!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Sherminator said:


> I'm beginning to think that the show is soon to be renamed "Battlestar Iraqtica" if this theme carries on any longer.


I can't wait for "Battlestar Erotica"


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

vikingguy said:


> You mean when they ripped off babylon 5?


Sorry but I never watched that show. How could a series starring The Love Boat's "handsome Bruce Boxleitner" ever be taken seriously?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Figaro said:


> Sorry but I never watched that show. How could a series starring The Love Boat's "handsome Bruce Boxleitner" ever be taken seriously?


Huh? Was Bruce on the Love Boat?


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Huh? Was Bruce on the Love Boat?


I think he was a rather frequent guest star, but then again I was 5 at the time so my memory could be off.


----------



## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

cyke93 said:


> im a big bsg fan but to be in honest, i didn't like the premiere too much.. it just felt off .. could the episode scream "iraq" any louder... i think these two episodes suffered from bsg's own success and the mess they dug themselves in by settling on new caprica ..
> 
> maybe in my head i expected more but i dunno.. i hope next week will be better


Maybe in your head you use capital letters.......
I hope your next post will be better


----------



## treyj (May 13, 2002)

No one answered my spoilerized question earlier, so I guess people are afraid of what they might learn. So then, a different question, that doesn't need spoiler tags:

Why did the Lucy Lawless "come out"? Last I recall, she was a news reporter and they had no idea she was a Cylon. It seems like it would've been smarter to let her stay "underground" to try to find out things.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

treyj said:


> No one answered my spoilerized question earlier, so I guess people are afraid of what they might learn. So then, a different question, that doesn't need spoiler tags:
> 
> Why did the Lucy Lawless "come out"? Last I recall, she was a news reporter and they had no idea she was a Cylon. It seems like it would've been smarter to let her stay "underground" to try to find out things.


That's a good question. Only the audience knew she was a Cylon.


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

treyj said:


> Why did the Lucy Lawless "come out"? Last I recall, she was a news reporter and they had no idea she was a Cylon. It seems like it would've been smarter to let her stay "underground" to try to find out things.


"There are many copies." Do we know that the reporter was the same one in the ruling council?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

They probably would have suspected something when they saw 15 xenas.

It was ovaries, not "embryos".

Maybe the boomer baby is significant not because of superhuman traits, but because of what it represents... a love bond between human and spylon. Which it seems they still haven't duplicated yet. 

Bruce boxleitner was Tron. Not that hard to see him in a good sci fi show. And B5 is exactly that. Although awfully cheesy at times too.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Bruce boxleitner was Tron. Not that hard to see him in a good sci fi show. And B5 is exactly that. Although awfully cheesy at times too.


Don't forget Scarecrow and Mrs. King as well as Bring'em Back Alive.

I couldn't take B5 seriously. Aside from the aforementioned Mr. Boxleitner, they costumes and characters looked as if they had come from a Dune yard sale.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Figaro said:


> Don't forget Scarecrow and Mrs. King as well as Bring'em Back Alive.
> 
> I couldn't take B5 seriously. Aside from the aforementioned Mr. Boxleitner, they costumes and characters looked as if they had come from a Dune yard sale.


It was pretty cheesy and stupid for a while there, until they got the "main plot" going. Some of us are able to overlook the cheese and camp because of the fact that the show was a pioneer in the way the whole "main plot" was written in advance, contrast it with star trek where they write a cliffhanger and then hope they can write themselves out of it for next season's premiere.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

also not mentioned so far: 

the cylon that is in love with Kara was interrogated by Kara on Galactica...during the interrogation, he told her that this has happened before, only he was interrogating her... 

he also told her it will happen again... 

he was right, of course. Now we know that. 

Now, he tells her that she will love him back and will embrace him...wouldn't that be something if it became true as well?


----------



## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

5thcrewman said:


> When will Xena be nekkers?


FINALLY someone brings up the most important question that we should all be talking about!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I loved the premiere. I have no problem with the parallels to current events and to human history. That's what nearly all good storytelling draws on. It's what we know and what we are interested in.

I also like the fact that they're on the planet and dealing with those issues. I'm not normally a sci-fi fan and I'm much more interested in the drama of the show than the setting. The fact that they're on a planet and under Cylon occupation introduces many more interesting dramatic elements into the story, as opposed to just the standard "space" issues that have dominated the first two seasons. I hope it takes quite a while for them to get back to space.

I think the whole thing with Adama trusting Boomer is very interesting. I think it's showing that the Cylons don't necessarily all think the same way and that they are evolving to develop true human emotions. Boomer has obviously married Helo at this point, as evidenced by Adama calling her "Sharon Agathon" and it didn't appear that most of the people on Galactica had a problem with her becoming an officer. It also illustrates the human ability to forgive, considering that Sharon (albeit a different one) tried to kill Adama.

Basically, I love the issues that they're exploring with the storyline and am excited to see where it goes.


----------



## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

I suspect that to avoid having Baltar be executed (which he would if they were all rescued and he tagged along) it will be him that recovers the flight keys to redeem himself. I agree with the previous posts that not only is Kara's supposed child _not_ really hers, or at least not her's and Leoben's, but that it was pushed down the stairs to play on Kara's sympathy. Some wild speculation: The gunfire Callie heard as she was running away was the group of centurions that had been attacking Sharon's landing party now attacking the firing squad centurions. They did make a point to say that centurions can't tell one version of a humanoid cylon from another, it could be fairly easy for Sharon to walk out and give them new orders...


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Tangent said:


> They did make a point to say that centurions can't tell one version of a humanoid cylon from another, it could be fairly easy for Sharon to walk out and give them new orders...


Huh? Wouldn't the fact that the Centurions can't tell the difference between humans and skin jobs mean that Sharon would *not* be able to give them new orders?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Oh wait, you mean one skin job from another.

Duh. I guess I thought they meant skin jobs from humans. Nevermind.


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Tangent said:


> Some wild speculation: The gunfire Callie heard as she was running away was the group of centurions that had been attacking Sharon's landing party now attacking the firing squad centurions. They did make a point to say that centurions can't tell one version of a humanoid cylon from another, it could be fairly easy for Sharon to walk out and give them new orders...


Interesting idea. Assuming the gunfire wasn't aimed at Kaylee (Callie? I never can get BSG spelling) the way it was set up to look in the episode.

My wild speculation is that the cylons ambushing the rescue party actually succeed. They kill Anders and Sharon. Then Sharon wakes up in a vat with a new body...and the other Sharons realize just who she is.

Then she REALLY has to decide which side she's on.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Big_Daddy said:


> Assuming the gunfire wasn't aimed at Kaylee (Callie? I never can get BSG spelling) the way it was set up to look in the episode.


Oh, it wasn't aimed at her. It was aimed at the group to be executed, including Roslyn and Zareck.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I found it interesting that the toasters have really bad aim...when they started shooting at sharon and the insurgents, the shots were 20 feet away and too low...


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I found it interesting that the toasters have really bad aim...when they started shooting at sharon and the insurgents, the shots were 20 feet away and too low...


They only have one eye. No depth perception.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Figaro said:


> They only have one eye. No depth perception.


Plus, it's always moving. Every shot for them is like trying to kick a field goal in _Madden_.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Huh? Wouldn't the fact that the Centurions can't tell the difference between humans and skin jobs mean that Sharon would *not* be able to give them new orders?


What he said (and what you quoted) was: "Centurions can't tell one version of a humanoid cylon from another." Which means they can't distinguish OUR Sharon from one of theirs.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Oh, it wasn't aimed at her. It was aimed at the group to be executed, including Roslyn and Zareck.


Agreed. Callie (sp?) definitely got away. I don't thing the gunfire we heard was from the centurians. Sounded like small arms fire of too small a caliber. I'm betting that we find out next week that the gunfire is from the rescue team who stumbled upon what was just about to happen.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Spoiler



Can't remember where I saw it, likely this thread. But soemone said that one of the cylon models would be retired. If they can't identify which Sharon is the traitor, they'd have to eliminate them all so the one remaining would be the one they wanted. THEN the cylons could tell.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

vman41 said:


> "There are many copies." Do we know that the reporter was the same one in the ruling council?


We don't. The reporter face spylon on the council might or might not be the same copy that recorded the video as a reporter on Galactica.

But that doesn't chance the fact that because there is a reporter face spylon on the ruling council that humans now know one more of the 12 spylon faces than they did before the copy sat on the council.

The humans goal has to be to collect all 12, because at that point they should be able to weed out all spylon infiltrators and have a better chance to really break contact with the cylon fleet.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Jonathan_S said:


> We don't. The reporter face spylon on the council might or might not be the same copy that recorded the video as a reporter on Galactica.


Actually, I doubt it. Council-Xena mentioned that she was the one who got whacked by Six on Caprica. AFAIK Galactica-Xena was still in the fleet at that time. And the one that got whacked was convinced that "field operatives" were inherently damaged and untrustworthy, so I doubt that she was one herself.



> The humans goal has to be to collect all 12, because at that point they should be able to weed out all spylon infiltrators and have a better chance to really break contact with the cylon fleet.


That is, if you really believe there are only 12...


----------



## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

Jericho Dog said:


> Maybe in your head you use capital letters.......
> I hope your next post will be better


I HOPE YOU ENJOY THIS THEN


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dcheesi said:


> That is, if you really believe there are only 12...


That's what Moore says.

And whenever Moore and Six agree on anything, I take it as gospel.


----------



## Uncle Briggs (Sep 11, 2004)

Figaro said:


> Starbuck needs to wake up and get a haircut.


I love the long locks. Don't change a thing.


----------



## quango (Sep 25, 2005)

treyj said:


> Why did the Lucy Lawless "come out"? Last I recall, she was a news reporter and they had no idea she was a Cylon. It seems like it would've been smarter to let her stay "underground" to try to find out things.


Anders saw her on Caprica, so she would have been "outed" as a Cylon as soon as he joined the fleet. Presumably they either spaced the reporter version sometime in the intervening year, or she was killed when Pegasus Six blew up Cloud Nine.


----------



## Raimi (Mar 17, 2005)

hefe said:


> After listening to Moore's podcasts last year, I don't doubt there's a political statement in there.


I enjoyed the show but if the writers are trying to make a political statement as to the plight of insurgents in Iraq then its a flawed and inaccurate comparison. I'd appreciate not having to have *every* show on tv try to force feed the same political propaganda down my throat. This is a great show, and the sooner the writers get away from trying to inject their misguided political notions into the episodes the better. 

The first two seasons were great. Here's hoping the show moves in a better direction in the next couple episodes.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Raimi said:


> I enjoyed the show but if the writers are trying to make a political statement as to the plight of insurgents in Iraq then its a flawed and inaccurate comparison. I'd appreciate not having to have *every* show on tv try to force feed the same political propaganda down my throat. This is a great show, and the sooner the writers get away from trying to inject their misguided political notions into the episodes the better.
> 
> The first two seasons were great. Here's hoping the show moves in a better direction in the next couple episodes.


It's actually not forcing a political agenda. I realize what Moore's political leanings are, but after listening to him speak on this week's commentary, and thinking about the situations on the show, the whole point is to make you think. None of the roles on the show are _directly _analogous to real life. Just because one side is occupying, and the other is resisting, that doesn't make them = America and Iraq, or Britain and the American colonies, or any specific situation. Think about it before going knee-jerk. Even the insurgents have a moral dilemma within their ranks that they're grappling with. There is no monolithic thinking here. It's not black and white. We are presented with a situation that has appropriate complexity that perhaps some people don't want to be confronted with. But the point is to make you think. What would you do if you were desperate enough? Well, these people are, and are faced with making some tough choices, and they don't all agree on what to do. And they don't necessarily always do the "right" thing. It would be awfully easy to make it a simple shootout or military action that saves the day, but that's not what they're going for here. It's more complicated, and more interesting.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Hefe speaks truth. Read his post again.

In other news, I vote Dee takes the bowl of snacks away from Apollo. Agreed?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Big_Daddy said:


> Hefe speaks truth. Read his post again.
> 
> In other news, I vote Dee takes the bowl of snacks away from Apollo. Agreed?


everyone please lay off Apollo...he's doing his best to expand the human race!


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Poor fat Apollo...He should talk to Leah Remini!


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

It's good he's in charge of the Pegasus now - I don't see how he could squeeze into a viper to save his life!


----------



## treyj (May 13, 2002)

treyj said:


> Why did the Lucy Lawless spylon "come out"?





quango said:


> Anders saw her on Caprica, so she would have been "outed" as a Cylon as soon as he joined the fleet.


Good call, quango! That is exactly right. They could've kept her "hidden" by not having any other of her model on New Caprica (as they are apparently doing with the other 5 models), but not once Anders et. al. were rescued.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Lots of political whining in this thread. It's just story telling. I check my politics at the remote.


Roslyn lost a finger? When did George Hearst join the Cylons?


----------



## kenr (Dec 26, 1999)

cheesesteak said:


> When did George Hearst join the Cylons?


Actually he didn't. He's now the mayor of Jericho Kansas. http://www.cbs.com/primetime/jericho/bio.php?actor=gerald


----------



## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Lots of political whining in this thread. It's just story telling. I check my politics at the remote.
> 
> Roslyn lost a finger? When did George Hearst join the Cylons?


As do I but when a show does such a job of blatent 1 sided and over the top political grand standing it is hard to over look. The political grand standing was in the viewers face for all most the full 2 hours of the show. It is a shame the show has declined so much in quality. It is not just me the show has lost a lot of viewers recently.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vikingguy said:


> As do I but when a show does such a job of blatent 1 sided and over the top political grand standing it is hard to over look. The political grand standing was in the viewers face for all most the full 2 hours of the show. It is a shame the show has declined so much in quality. It is not just me the show has lost a lot of viewers recently.


it didn't, and it wasn't...there are a few posts in this thread that make a convincing case that this is not what the show was about...


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

vikingguy said:


> ...such a job of blatent 1 sided and over the top political grand standing it is hard to over look.....


Really? So Tigh was presented as a good guy? Caprica 6 and Sharon were presented as totally evil? Which side is the 1 side, because it's not that clear to me. U.S. troops have been accused of popping out the eyes of insurgents? Executing them in mass to instill fear? Or chasing a people off their planet and pursuing them until we catch them and oppress them? These are some of the things that the humans on the show are dealing with. Really, the analogy is very poor. People need to get over it. It's not the same. It depicts war and oppression and occupation. The situations that arise from that are reasonable considering human history as a guide. These kinds of things have happened throughout history. America is no more equivalent to the Cylons because of this plot any more than because they speak English...like we do here in America...wait, OMG, you're right! We're the Cylons!!!


----------



## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> it didn't, and it wasn't...there are a few posts in this thread that make a convincing case that this is not what the show was about...


In your opinion it didn't. There are enough people who think it did to justify it did wether or not you think it did. Go check out the official boards at scifi there are a lot people people who thought the show was a 2 hour political grand stand. I don't mind politics in a show if they present both sides fairly or it subtle. I never thought anyone could top DEK for over top political grand standing but ron moore did. I love boston legal dispite DEK and pushing his polital views. I still have love for battle star I just hope the show gets back to on track. The show has been off since resurection ship part 2.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vikingguy said:


> In your opinion it didn't. There are enough people who think it did to justify it did wether or not you think it did.


evil is bad.
good is gud.

got it.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vikingguy said:


> I just hope the show gets back to on track. The show has been off since resurection ship part 2.


I agree with the second statement. I'm just glad it now HAS gotten back on track.


----------



## Eskimo Pie (May 17, 2002)

I want to clarify that Roslyn did NOT loose a finger... I still have the episode and I specifically went back to look at that scene... she has ALL of her fingers. She is simply raising her hands up to show that she's handcuffed also when she says that they cylons aren't happy with her either.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Eskimo Pie said:


> I want to clarify that Roslyn did NOT loose a finger... I still have the episode and I specifically went back to look at that scene... she has ALL of her fingers. She is simply raising her hands up to show that she's handcuffed also when she says that they cylons aren't happy with her either.


Thanks for checking... I was starting to think I am senile for not noticing something so "obvious".

And back to political posturing... I'm curious whether those of you who are really annoyed by it in this show have seen V for Vendetta. Because after that steaming pile of political vitriol, I tend to be very tolerant of political allegories.


----------



## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

I looked at the show for entertainment only. I did not read any politics into it at all. But, I did not like how dark everything is and hope the show becomes fun again.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's what Moore says.
> 
> And whenever Moore and Six agree on anything, I take it as gospel.


Oh I agree, but I guess the point I was making was that the Colonials have no real reason to believe it. Heck, how many of them even know about "12 models" memo? And who would trust an anonymous tip like that?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DouglasPHill said:


> I looked at the show for entertainment only. I did not read any politics into it at all. But, I did not like how dark everything is and hope the show becomes fun again.


but the show has been consistently dark...when was it "fun"? the main criticism of the show has always been how dark it is...am I misunderstanding your comment?


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> Oh I agree, but I guess the point I was making was that the Colonials have no real reason to believe it. Heck, how many of them even know about "12 models" memo? And who would trust an anonymous tip like that?


And what's stopping them from creating additional models whenever they want?


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

DouglasPHill said:


> I looked at the show for entertainment only. I did not read any politics into it at all. But, I did not like how dark everything is and hope the show becomes fun again.


Yeah that whole nuclear apocalypse and the near extinction of the human race made the show an uplifting toe tapper. It was better than Cats!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dcheesi said:


> Oh I agree, but I guess the point I was making was that the Colonials have no real reason to believe it. Heck, how many of them even know about "12 models" memo? And who would trust an anonymous tip like that?


they went public with the information when the spylon terrorist detonated a suicide vest (huh? WAIT A MINUTE...I thought the cylons were America! how did THAT happen?!) on Galactica...they flashed the pictures of the known spylon models and told everyone to look for someone that looks like that...

I believe they also mentioned to the fleet that there are 12 models at the time...so this should be common knowledge to everyone since that was their most immediate threat...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

busyba said:


> And what's stopping them from creating additional models whenever they want?


we don't know...yet 

the only thread is that there are 12 colonies...so maybe it's a religious reason, not a technical one...


----------



## Raimi (Mar 17, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Lots of political whining in this thread. It's just story telling. I check my politics at the remote.


You can remain oblivious to what the writers are attempting to convey to the audience if you like, but that's not as easy for all of us. 



hefe said:


> It's actually not forcing a political agenda. I realize what Moore's political leanings are, but after listening to him speak on this week's commentary, and thinking about the situations on the show, the whole point is to make you think. None of the roles on the show are directly analogous to real life. Just because one side is occupying, and the other is resisting, that doesn't make them = America and Iraq, or Britain and the American colonies, or any specific situation. Think about it before going knee-jerk.


I'll admit to a slightly knee-jerk response. I do think, however, that its much easier to ignore political overtones when they validate your personal opinions. I enjoy the show, and as I said before, am very hopefull that it will get back on track very soon.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

It seems to me that the Spylons are biological/mechanical hybrids and perhaps they are hard to engineer with different traits, hence the limit of 12 of them as well as their desire to learn how to procreate with humans.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> It seems to me that the Spylons are biological/mechanical hybrids and perhaps they are hard to engineer with different traits, hence the limit of 12 of them as well as their desire to learn how to procreate with humans.


There's nothing mechanical about the Spylons, despite all the talk of "They're machines!". No medical test can distinguish them from natural-born humans.


----------



## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

jehma said:


> Why are all the female Cylons stunning but the males are average looking at best?


_Seriously!!_ All the female Cylons are hot 20 and 30-somethings and the male Cylons are, um, not. (Okay, Leoben could be okay if he cleaned up but he's always so sweaty and dirty. And a sadistic frakking jerk.)

And why oh why in the name of the Gods of Kobol is the main "hot guy" being put in a fat suit? The guys get to watch Six prancing around in her hoochie outfits and constantly shoving her boobs at Baltar and we get . . . what? I realize that BSG has a largely male fanbase, but it would be nice if they realized that the female fans like their eye candy too.

Please give us hot Apollo back soon, at the very least. And the next Cylon reveal better be a hot young dude. With all their talk about enticing humans into love and sex and breeding and whatnot, it makes no sense they didn't make hot male Cylons too.

But other than my issues with Fat Apollo (*sob*), I enjoyed this episode a lot. I wasn't really lost or confused, although it was a bit disorienting at first. And I'd like to see some flashbacks at some point to clarify a few things, but I guess I could live without them. I'm definitely interested in where the story is going.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Raimi said:


> You can remain oblivious to what the writers are attempting to convey to the audience if you like, but that's not as easy for all of us.


Then perhaps you can tell me, because it's not obvious at all, what exactly is the message? What exactly are they conveying?

I'm asking in all seriousness, because I have yet to pick up on the moral conclusion that is supposed to be so blatant.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There's nothing mechanical about the Spylons, despite all the talk of "They're machines!". No medical test can distinguish them from natural-born humans.


Well, except for the orgasmic glowing spine test, of course!


----------



## Raimi (Mar 17, 2005)

hefe said:


> Then perhaps you can tell me, because it's not obvious at all, what exactly is the message? What exactly are they conveying?
> 
> I'm asking in all seriousness, because I have yet to pick up on the moral conclusion that is supposed to be so blatant.


I was responding to cheesesteak with the portion you quoted but I'd be happy to answer your question anyway. To me it was quite clear that there was an effort to draw a direct parallel to the situation in Iraq; using fictional situations and characters to create sympathy for insurgents. I think the writers were attempting to get us to identify with the insurgents in the show and the situation they face in order to try and get people to at least consider that the actions by insurgents in Iraq are justified to some degree. However, the comparison is extremely flawed.

I'll back off the politics because I know it can bring a thread down pretty easily and I certainly don't want to ruin it for everyone (if its too late I apologize). If you wish to discuss this further I'd be more than happy to do so via pm.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There's nothing mechanical about the Spylons, despite all the talk of "They're machines!". No medical test can distinguish them from natural-born humans.


They can communite with computers via optical cables and "transmit" their consciousness into new bodies when they die. There's something mechanical about them, even if it's at the molecular level.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Raimi said:


> To me it was quite clear that there was an effort to draw a direct parallel to the situation in Iraq


There are parallels between the show and many different conflicts throughout history. If you choose to only recognize the Iraq similarities, that's on you, not the producers.

I suppose the show is a bit of a Rorschach test, isn't it?


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

hefe said:


> Then perhaps you can tell me, because it's not obvious at all, what exactly is the message? What exactly are they conveying?


I'm just going to speculate on this for a moment.

In past seasons, our "bad guys" the Cylons have sent spies to infiltrate human society and have used tactics such as suicide bombing and nuking civilians. This has cast them in a terrorist light, although obviously they are the stronger power so the comparison is only one of tactics.

Then we have this season's premiere. The Cylons are now an occupying force, detaining and torturing the insurgent humans. The humans have resorted to tactics such as suicide bombing. It's not difficult to relate this to current events.

To me this role reversal was a shock. The good guys are the suicide bombers? I think this was done primarily to be "edgy." It has obviously created heated conversations here. I think it was also done so that open minded viewers might question whether certain desperation military tactics are inherently evil. A message could be that even "the good guys" can be pushed to the point where they employ terrorist like tactics. It's easy to sit on a high moral horse when your world is peaceful, but look what happens to these fictional humans when their world is destroyed.

Overall I thought it was a nice shock tactic, but maybe a little too heavy handed. And I agree there is no obvious message. Different people will see different messages, which I think is a good thing.

I think this show will continue to be controversial. Religion, military, politics, abortion, racism, with subjects like these how could the show not be controversial?


----------



## Raimi (Mar 17, 2005)

busyba said:


> There are parallels between the show and many different conflicts throughout history. If you choose to only recognize the Iraq similarities, that's on you, not the producers.
> 
> I suppose the show is a bit of a Rorschach test, isn't it?


All conflicts have similarities, but why don't you fill me in on one that concerned suicide bombers and a civilian police force trained by the "occupiers" as presented in the episode. The intention is clear even if you choose to ignore it. 

Arg...back into politics again. I'll just avoid the thread because I obviously can't keep my mouth shut.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

But it isn't necessarily a depiction of the writers' politcal leanings than an artistic flip of a moral dilemma and saying, "What if it was this way?" Then you are to think about it. And it seems we all have and come to different conclusions and are discussing it here which would be the intention of art.

kel


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Raimi said:


> I was responding to cheesesteak with the portion you quoted but I'd be happy to answer your question anyway. To me it was quite clear that there was an effort to draw a direct parallel to the situation in Iraq; using fictional situations and characters to create sympathy for insurgents. I think the writers were attempting to get us to identify with the insurgents in the show and the situation they face in order to try and get people to at least consider that the actions by insurgents in Iraq are justified to some degree. However, the comparison is extremely flawed.
> 
> I'll back off the politics because I know it can bring a thread down pretty easily and I certainly don't want to ruin it for everyone (if its too late I apologize). If you wish to discuss this further I'd be more than happy to do so via pm.


I think most of the discussion has been nicely civil, I'm not sweating the topic, I think it's interesting.

The fact that the comparison is extremely flawed means you can't make judgments about the real world based on the fictional situations. There are elements in common, but the situations are not the same. You have to decide if what is being done is right or wrong in the context of the situation. This show is all about the moral shades of gray. If the real life Iraqi insurgents were in the same situation as the Colonial insurgents, and the Cylons purpose and tactics were equivalent to what the U.S. is doing, well, that would be a whole different discussion then...


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Raimi said:


> I do think, however, that its much easier to ignore political overtones when they validate your personal opinions.


For me the exact opposite is true. I really have no desire to watch a show or movie where my viewpoint on politics is dumbed down, oversimplified, then shoved in my face. It annoyes me much, much more than if they do the same with an opinion I disagree with. That is why I hated V for Vendetta so much.

Also worth mentioning... I don't know about the rest of you, but when I think of suicide bombers I think of the gaza strip and west bank, not iraq.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Raimi said:


> All conflicts have similarities, but why don't you fill me in on one that concerned suicide bombers and a civilian police force trained by the "occupiers" as presented in the episode. The intention is clear even if you choose to ignore it.


Who said both elements have to be informed by the same conflict? Sure, you have both elements in Iraq, but there are numerous historical references for both suicide bombers (manned torpedos and kamikaze pilots in WWII, Vietnam) and for forces of "collaborators" (Vichy France).

I don't see any clear moral statement in the actions taken by either (all?) sides in this ep, other than a clear intent by the writers to stimulate discussions just like this one.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There's nothing mechanical about the Spylons, despite all the talk of "They're machines!". No medical test can distinguish them from natural-born humans.


That's only because their super-duper, optical-cable-interfacing, glowy-spine-inducing nanites are smart enough to temporarily leave the part of the body being scanned or sampled ("or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Plot-Hole"  )


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I've never heard of it referred to as a "plot hole" before.


----------



## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

It's interesting that some people consider the political "message" of this show (and this episode in particular) to be so "obvious" and "heavy-handed" (pick your adjective) because imho, BSG goes almost out of its way NOT to "pick a side" and force it down our throats.

BSG seems especially ambiguous about its "message" when compared to a show like _Studio 60_, which (like _The West Wing_ before it) presents a very blatant "right way" and "wrong way" of looking at certain issues. And hits the viewer over the head until you "get it." BSG is pretty morally grey most of the time and shows reasonable people disagreeing. If I'm being hit over the head, I don't feel it, at least most of the time. And I didn't in this episode, despite the obvious similarities to current events.

So yeah, there was a lot of talk about insurgents in this episode but the point wasn't "insurgents good" or "insurgents bad." The point is that the "insurgents" are only called insurgents by the occupiers. When Americans were occupied by the British and started an insurgency, we called ourselves revolutionaries. It all depends on which side you're on. For the life of me, I can't understand how that could be considered an "anti-American" point of view. It says nothing about the wisdom of the decision to occupy in the first place and whether that decision might be justified under certain circumstances.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> They can communite with computers via optical cables and "transmit" their consciousness into new bodies when they die. There's something mechanical about them, even if it's at the molecular level.


No, there's just no science knowledge amongst the writers.

A fact which, once I accepted it, greatly enhanced my enjoyment of the show.


----------



## Raimi (Mar 17, 2005)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Who said both elements have to be informed by the same conflict? Sure, you have both elements in Iraq, but there are numerous historical references for both suicide bombers (manned torpedos and kamikaze pilots in WWII, Vietnam) and for forces of "collaborators" (Vichy France).
> 
> I don't see any clear moral statement in the actions taken by either (all?) sides in this ep, other than a clear intent by the writers to stimulate discussions just like this one.


I'll allow for the possibility that I'm being overly sensitive regarding the episode. It comes from being inundated by political statements in television that trumpet the same political sentiments. I can't honestly think of one positive conservative character or one "conservative political statement" being expressed on television today. Nonetheless I think some good points have been made by many of you. I'll work on resisting the knee-jerk reactions as best I can.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Magnolia88 said:


> It's interesting that some people consider the political "message" of this show (and this episode in particular) to be so "obvious" and "heavy-handed" (pick your adjective) because imho, BSG goes almost out of its way NOT to "pick a side" and force it down our throats.


I'm not sure why you would pick on my use of the term "heavy handed." I was not at all referring to an obvious political message, I was referring to the "shock tactic" of making the good guys into suicide bomber insurgents who are detained, prisoned, and/or tortured at the hands of their highly religious occupiers, and where collaborators are looked down upon as traitors. I realized the similarities to Iraq (and other current and historical conflicts) pretty early in the episode, by midway I was thinking, "Okay, I get it already," and by the end I felt like I'd been beaten over the head with it. I just think it was heavy handed, like the AIDS episode of Star Trek that I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Because Tigh has done morally questionable things in the past, I don't think there is any obvious political message in what I'm calling a heavy handed shock tactic.


----------



## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

Ok, let's leave the socio-political talk behind and focus on other events within the show.

Is this the first time that Galactica has jumped into atmosphere? And so close to the ground also?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Sherminator said:


> Is this the first time that Galactica has jumped into atmosphere? And so close to the ground also?


I think that was a Raptor, not Galactica.

That _would_ be cool though.....


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Sherminator said:


> Is this the first time that Galactica has jumped into atmosphere? And so close to the ground also?


??

The show I saw, it was 2 Raptors that jumped into atmosphere, not a Battlestar.

phox


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

hefe said:


> It's actually not forcing a political agenda. I realize what Moore's political leanings are, but after listening to him speak on this week's commentary, and thinking about the situations on the show, the whole point is to make you think. None of the roles on the show are _directly _analogous to real life. Just because one side is occupying, and the other is resisting, that doesn't make them = America and Iraq, or Britain and the American colonies, or any specific situation. Think about it before going knee-jerk. Even the insurgents have a moral dilemma within their ranks that they're grappling with. There is no monolithic thinking here. It's not black and white. We are presented with a situation that has appropriate complexity that perhaps some people don't want to be confronted with. But the point is to make you think. What would you do if you were desperate enough? Well, these people are, and are faced with making some tough choices, and they don't all agree on what to do. And they don't necessarily always do the "right" thing. It would be awfully easy to make it a simple shootout or military action that saves the day, but that's not what they're going for here. It's more complicated, and more interesting.


Exactly what I'm thinking!!! It is a TV show! People are trying too hard to compare
BSG with current events and it is apples and oranges.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There's nothing mechanical about the Spylons, despite all the talk of "They're machines!". No medical test can distinguish them from natural-born humans.


Except for the one that Baltar developed using the nuke. It worked when he first tried it on Boomer, but he lied to her and told her she was human, and then (for some reason I can't remember) he claimed the test didn't work and stopped doing it.


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## quango (Sep 25, 2005)

devdogaz said:


> Except for the one that Baltar developed using the nuke. It worked when he first tried it on Boomer, but he lied to her and told her she was human, and then (for some reason I can't remember) he claimed the test didn't work and stopped doing it.


Well, after G-Boomer shot the old man, he had a perfect excuse for retiring the test - everyone else thinks it failed to detect her.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Magnolia88 said:


> _Seriously!!_ All the female Cylons are hot 20 and 30-somethings and the male Cylons are, um, not. (Okay, Leoben could be okay if he cleaned up but he's always so sweaty and dirty. And a sadistic frakking jerk.)
> 
> And why oh why in the name of the Gods of Kobol is the main "hot guy" being put in a fat suit?


what about the black doctor? he's a good looking spylon...

and, you know, you did get to see Apollo in nothing but a towel


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## LordFett (May 6, 2005)

Eskimo Pie said:


> I want to clarify that Roslyn did NOT loose a finger... I still have the episode and I specifically went back to look at that scene... she has ALL of her fingers. She is simply raising her hands up to show that she's handcuffed also when she says that they cylons aren't happy with her either.


I went back and checked too. The way her fingers were it looked like she was down one digit. Sorry for the misslead!


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## TreborPugly (May 2, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, there's just no science knowledge amongst the writers.
> 
> A fact which, once I accepted it, greatly enhanced my enjoyment of the show.


um.. what? Accept the fact that the writers of Science Fiction have no knowledge of science. Not for me thanks. There are plenty of writers of science fiction books that have very little scientific background, but they still do the research and learn what they need to make their stories work. The only reason we get this crap from our Science fiction TV shows is because TV markets to a bigger crowd, and there are many people who will watch without being Science fiction fans. But as a SF fan, I continue to hope for more.

On the occupation/Iraq theme, I don't see how anyone can pin down this show as having a particular political agenda. It's obvious that they are trying to set up parallels, but they continually change which side of the parallel our heros are on, and continually change, within the show, who the heros are. Every major character has been on the good-guy side, and the bad-guy side. For me, that is getting irritating. I understand their point, but the flips come too frequently, and arbitrarily.


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

if you have Comcast... The next day it is on "VideoOnDemand, Cutting Edge, SciFi, (and finally) Battlestar Galactica". (whew) 
No SciFi "logo" and no commercials!  
(at least for the two hour season opener, which was listed at 94 minutes).


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

busyba said:


> Well, except for the orgasmic glowing spine test, of course!


Too bad Baltar didn't know about that, would have made a much easier test!

Next!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't think I'm smeeking...but apologies just in case...I seem to recall reading in the Washington Post that BSG did worse this ep than they did for the first ep of the season...IIRC, 2.2 million viewers versus 3.1 or something like that... 

the Post did mention that 2.2 number is better than the average for the previous season, so it wasn't all bad news as long as the average is maintained from the opening (given all the talk of "I'm-not-watching-this-anymore-because-it's-Bush-bashing", I'm not sure they will keep that average!)... 

on the other hand, it's good news if you're worried that NBC will pick up the show on the network


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jericho Dog said:


> Too bad Baltar didn't know about that, would have made a much easier test!
> 
> Next!


...and in walks Simon.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...and in walks Simon.


first people to test are the commanders...Adama, followed by Tigh...


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Anubys said:


> first people to test are the commanders...Adama, followed by Tigh...


Ew, I wouldn't have sex with them just to see if their spines glowed.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Ew, I wouldn't have sex with them just to see if their spines glowed.


Dude! If their spines glowed during sex, I might just _have_ to have sex with them, just on principle.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

phox_mulder said:


> ??
> 
> The show I saw, it was 2 Raptors that jumped into atmosphere, not a Battlestar.
> 
> phox


Did I say a Battlestar? I meant has *the show* ever jumped any craft directly jumped into extremely low orbit within the atmosphere?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Sherminator said:


> Did I say a Battlestar? I meant has *the show* ever jumped any craft directly jumped into extremely low orbit within the atmosphere?


Yes. The squadron of rescue raptors that retrieved the Capricans jumped into low orbit. So low that one raptor was embedded inside of a mountain.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Sherminator said:


> Did I say a Battlestar? I meant has *the show* ever jumped any craft directly jumped into extremely low orbit within the atmosphere?


You said "Galactica". That's _at best_ ambiguious, but far more likely to be seen as referring to the ship rather than the show.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Yes. The squadron of rescue raptors that retrieved the Capricans jumped into low orbit. So low that one raptor was embedded inside of a mountain.


I understand Cory Lidle was piloting that raptor.

Too soon?


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

When I say to my co-workers "did you see Galactica last Friday", I'm sure that they aren't thinking that I'm asking them if they caught a glimpse of the starring craft whilst they were channel surfing.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Yes. The squadron of rescue raptors that retrieved the Capricans jumped into low orbit. So low that one raptor was embedded inside of a mountain.


Was that the one carrying Stevie Ray Vaughan?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Sherminator said:


> When I say to my co-workers "did you see Galactica last Friday", I'm sure that they aren't thinking that I'm asking them if they caught a glimpse of the starring craft whilst they were channel surfing.


Now you're just being obtuse for the hell of it.

Here's a hint: context matters.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

busyba said:


> I understand Cory Lidle was piloting that raptor.
> 
> Too soon?


Yeah.


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## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

DLiquid said:


> I'm not sure why you would pick on my use of the term "heavy handed." I was not at all referring to an obvious political message,


That was't my intent to single anyone out. I've also called BSG "heavy-handed" on occasion, but my point is that I don't think the writers are trying to push some political message down our throats, which I think is your point also.

BSG is sometimes heavy-handed with its storytelling technique and sometimes the parallels to current events are a little TOO heavy-handed (we're talking about torture! get it? TORTURE!), but just because there are parallels that may inspire debate and discussion doesn't mean they are pushing one political point of view. Which appears to be the majority opinion here.

Anyway . . .



devdogaz said:


> Except for the one that Baltar developed using the nuke. It worked when he first tried it on Boomer, but he lied to her and told her she was human, and then (for some reason I can't remember) he claimed the test didn't work and stopped doing it.


This has confused me also. The Cylon detector totally worked on Sharon! So what happened to it?

I can't remember why Baltar didn't tell anybody about Sharon but I thought he had his own (crazy) reasons. But what I don't understand is what happened to the Cylon dectector after that. Did Baltar just destroy it? I would think by now he might actually think it would come in handy at some point. Although I never know what is going on with him.



> Well, after G-Boomer shot the old man, he had a perfect excuse for retiring the test - everyone else thinks it failed to detect her.


But that doesn't make sense to me. Baltar has no problem lying so he could just say that it wasn't working then but he's "perfected" it now or something. Anything. But *he* knows the test works, so what did he do with it and why hasn't he ever thought to bring it out again or tell anyone about it?


----------



## Bai Shen (Dec 17, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> At least now that the season has started we don't have to watch any more Battlestar Nickleback ads.


Huh??


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Sherminator said:


> When I say to my co-workers "did you see Galactica last Friday", I'm sure that they aren't thinking that I'm asking them if they caught a glimpse of the starring craft whilst they were channel surfing.


True. On the other hand, you weren't in the middle of a discussion about a specific episode when asking your co-workers.

Context does change meaning.

Now if you'd said "Is this the first time that someone on Galactica has jumped into atmosphere? And so close to the ground also?" then it would have been clearer that you meant the show rather than the ship. (Underlined words inserted)


----------



## Bai Shen (Dec 17, 2004)

LordFett said:


> If you're talking about the exchange in the back of the execution truck she showed him that her ring finger was missing. I had to back it up twice and see before I totally got it.


Are you sure? I thought they were just showing her hands being tied with zip strips.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Bai Shen said:


> Huh??


They used that crappy Nickleback song on the BSG ads for months before the premier. I was sick of it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Bai Shen said:


> Are you sure? I thought they were just showing her hands being tied with zip strips.


Read the rest of the thread before replying.


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## Bai Shen (Dec 17, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> They used that crappy Nickleback song on the BSG ads for months before the premier. I was sick of it.


Ah, okay. Didn't realize it was a Nickelback song.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Magnolia88 said:


> This has confused me also. The Cylon detector totally worked on Sharon! So what happened to it?
> 
> I can't remember why Baltar didn't tell anybody about Sharon but I thought he had his own (crazy) reasons. But what I don't understand is what happened to the Cylon dectector after that. Did Baltar just destroy it? I would think by now he might actually think it would come in handy at some point. Although I never know what is going on with him.


It took a very long time to run the test (10 hours? Something like that), he could only run one test at a time, apparently only he could run the test, and apparently he had to be there the whole time. And then when Sharon turned out to be a Cylon, they would have suspended whatever testing they were managing to get done.


----------



## Bai Shen (Dec 17, 2004)

devdogaz said:


> Read the rest of the thread before replying.


I saw the replies and was gonna delete the post, but then you replied to it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Magnolia88 said:


> just because there are parallels that may inspire debate and discussion doesn't mean they are pushing one political point of view. Which appears to be the majority opinion here.
> ...
> 
> This has confused me also. The Cylon detector totally worked on Sharon! So what happened to it?
> ...


first point: actually, if you read the posts, the *minority* opinion is that they are pushing a political point of view...

second point: Rob is right about the time it took and all that...but when the test showed Sharon as a spylon, Six (in Baltar's head) asked him what he thought Sharon's programming would do to him if he "outed" her as a cylon...probably go into self-preservation mode and kill him...that was all the convincing Baltar needed to declare her human and to resolve to pass everyone that takes the test (God, I LOVE Baltar!)...why he didn't tell people LATER? again, if there's a hint of retribution or danger to him, Baltar will always think of himself first...


----------



## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

Anubys said:


> first point: actually, if you read the posts, the *minority* opinion is that they are pushing a political point of view...


Uh, _actually_, if you read _my_ post, isn't that what I said? Isn't minority the opposite of majority, or am I missing something?

Anyway . . . I think some people are going to read things into the political allegories no matter what anyone else says, but I enjoy the story on its own merit and I never get the impression that I'm being told what to think about certain issues.

And speaking of enjoying the story, the more I ponder the ins and outs of the human Cylons, the less they make sense to me. How they can mate with humans to produce a baby, how they can mimic humans so closely without being detected (since the Cylon detector is MIA), how their "essence" (memory?) can be resurrected and "downloaded" to another body that is on another planet, etc. (Which is probably why I don't enjoy sci-fi in general because I have such a hard time grappling with the fi in the sci.) So I stop the pondering and enjoy the story and there is much to enjoy in BSG, even for a non-sci fi fan.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Magnolia88 said:


> Uh, _actually_, if you read _my_ post, isn't that what I said? Isn't minority the opposite of majority, or am I missing something?


What you wrote was ambiguious.

"just because there are parallels that may inspire debate and discussion doesn't mean they are pushing one political point of view. Which appears to be the majority opinion here."

It's not immediately obvious if "which appears to be the majority opinion" is describing "they are pushing one political point of view" or if it is describing "it doesn't mean they are pushing one political point of view".

Just because you knew what you meant when you wrote it doesn't mean everyone else will.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

busyba said:


> What you wrote was ambiguious.
> 
> "just because there are parallels that may inspire debate and discussion doesn't mean they are pushing one political point of view. Which appears to be the majority opinion here."
> 
> ...


um...what he said!


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## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

busyba said:


> I understand Cory Lidle was piloting that raptor.
> 
> Too soon?


I live 3 miles from lower manhatten.. i cant believe you just said that


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

cyke93 said:


> I live 3 miles from lower manhatten.. i cant believe you just said that


You really don't want to play the geography card with me. I live 4 blocks from yesterday's crash site.


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## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

busyba said:


> You really don't want to play the geography card with me. I live 4 blocks from yesterday's crash site.


so being that close gives you the right to make light of the situation.. you said it best.. "too soon" ..

going back to BSG, i find it hard to believe that kara would do an about face just cuz casie got hurt.. like the way she grabbed his hand .. she's just playing him .. and speaking of being played, adama and sharon.. i just cant wait to find out that he's known that her kid was alive all this time ..


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

cyke93 said:


> so being that close gives you the right to make light of the situation..


No... actually distance is irrelevant. You're the one who brought it up as if it matters.

I was merely letting you know that your boast of being "3 miles from lower manhatten [sic]" was not only irrelevant, but also comical considering that I actually live _in_ Manhattan.

As for what does or does not give me the right to make light of any particular situation: I'm not exaclty sure what it is that qualifies you to be the arbiter of my rights, but I'm fairly certain that it's not your living within 3 miles of lower manhatten [sic]. So if you would care to enlighten us with your curriculum vitae in this regard, I'm sure we all will find it facinating.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

If this political debate keeps up with tonight's episode, may I propose separate "BSG political episode discussion" and a "BSG non-political episode discussion" threads? I'd like to discuss the plot elements within the show without wading through debates about how the show may or may not be promoting one particular point of view.

Noted, that it's interesting a show can provoke such strong responses. And those discussions should go on, it's just it would be nice to have threads focusing on one or the other.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Big_Daddy said:


> If this political debate keeps up with tonight's episode, may I propose separate "BSG political episode discussion" and a "BSG non-political episode discussion" threads? I'd like to discuss the plot elements within the show without wading through debates about how the show may or may not be promoting one particular point of view.
> 
> Noted, that it's interesting a show can provoke such strong responses. And those discussions should go on, it's just it would be nice to have threads focusing on one or the other.


I'm willing to bet good money that the political stuff will be gone as early as tonight's ep...

note: I don't know any spoilers and I don't listen to the podcast...this is just my opinion...


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

Anubys said:


> busyba said:
> 
> 
> > What you wrote was ambiguious.
> ...


I agree.
...generally speaking......


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I'm willing to bet good money that the political stuff will be gone as early as tonight's ep...
> 
> note: I don't know any spoilers and I don't listen to the podcast...this is just my opinion...


Not knowing any spoilers myself, I'm not so positive. We're still in the occupied/occupier storyline, so it could continue, although they may not be focusing on the more obvious bits like suicide bombing and such... We'll just have to see.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to it! Go, go, Fat Apollo!


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## Raimi (Mar 17, 2005)

Big_Daddy said:


> I'd like to discuss the plot elements within the show without wading through debates about how the show may or may not be promoting one particular point of view...


That seems a little unnecessary in my opinion. Out of a thread with 300+ responses theres maybe 20 posts dealing with the political aspect. Do we really need to start creating multiple threads about an episode to discuss every different aspect of the show?

For my part, I'll leave the politics out of it in the future. There's plenty of other places on the interweb for me to vent my frustrations.


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## Charlutz (Apr 7, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It took a very long time to run the test (10 hours? Something like that), he could only run one test at a time, apparently only he could run the test, and apparently he had to be there the whole time. And then when Sharon turned out to be a Cylon, they would have suspended whatever testing they were managing to get done.


I wasn't following the BSG threads from previous seasons on this forum. On another forum, I posited that there was a writing flaw in the time that the test took. Maybe you guys sorted through it here?

This is what we know -- the test on Boomer took minutes. You can tell by when she gives blood, rolls up her sleeve and what happens in the cut scene between her giving blood and when Baltar gives her the results. We also know that it's in Baltar's interests (with Six in his head) to not test everybody quickly. When he later proclaims that the Cylon detector works, but it takes 12 hours to run a single test, we are unsure of whether he is telling the truth or a lie.

Some people from the other forum speculated that the Boomer test was either a preliminary test and not fully reliable (though it worked on her) and that the 12 hour test was a full blown test. I think that Baltar just lied and said the test took 12 hours to deflect identifying all the Cylons in the fleet. However, the flaw in my reasoning is that later in that episode (sorry, forgot the title) or maybe it was another episode, the show ends with Baltar moping in front of racks and racks of test tubes waiting to be tested and lamenting that it will take him 20 years to test them all, apparently believing that it would in fact take that long.

I think that was a writing flaw, but we never got a full answer on it. I have the dvds now and can go listen to the commentary, but if someone already has this figured out, I'd love to hear it.

One other thing, the nuke was never used in the test. Six had Baltar ask for it and he got it. Then he later gave it to Gina, apparently still intact.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

The Cylon test was based on the observation that when exposed to some "type" of radiation, Cylon tissue breaks down in a manner different from human tissue, hence the human's placement of the weapons depot in that radiation field. The nuclear warhead was necessary to get the radiation, to expose the blood sample, so the sensor can read the results of the exposed tissue and detect the presence of Cylon "bits" in the remains. Sharon's test came back quickly, but Baltar estimated that to completely "be sure" of not missing a Cylon, the samples had to be exposed for a longer time. They could yield a result quickly, but there was no guarantee of a correct result unless the sample was exposed for twelve hours.

The warhead was not exploded for the tests, so it could still be used by Six. He was only using the emitted radiation for his test.

The real issue I had was, why did he have to process each sample serially? He could have exposed, well theoretically, all the samples at once and examined them for Cylon "bits" at his leisure later. It would have taken time, but it would in no way have taken the sixty-five or so years (slightly less than 50,000 people times twelve hours per test) he claimed. There was only one machine to expose the samples, but the analysis part of the machine could have been duplicated easily I think.

Since they were running from the Cylons after taking only the essentials, where did they get 50,000 sterile test tubes for blood samples--and needles?

I really hope a genetic mutation happens and Baltar grows a backbone sometime soon. Static characters are uninteresting. It would be a really good twist if he became the rebel leader some time in the future.

After the sympathetic number Six was shot, imaginary number Six reappeared almost immediately. I wonder where they are going with this, if anywhere?

I am afraid to find out what will happen when Sharon discovers that her baby is still alive?

If anyone actually believes that Casey is really the product of Kara and that Cylon, then they are too gullible. He said it, but I really don't believe it for a second. A hybrid was too important to the Cylons for Casey to be treated to lightly. They would ALL be talking about the success of the process if it were real.

How many of the twelve human-form Cylons have we seen now? I count seven or eight. Have we seen more than that?

With less than 50,000 humans left, is there enough biodiversity to insure the long-term survival of the species? They had better stop killing each other, and start having babies pronto. Humans could soon become a mere footnote, and Cylons their only offspring.

They need to strike the resurrection facility so killing a Cylon really means killing one. That might give the machines some level of caution.


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## Charlutz (Apr 7, 2005)

Church AV Guy said:


> How many of the twelve human-form Cylons have we seen now? I count seven or eight. Have we seen more than that?


Great points on the Cylon test and completely consistent with what we were shown. Did you surmise what happened, or did it come from another source as they didn't give that detail in the show?

7 cylon models so far:

Sharon
Six/Gina
Brother Kavil
Black doctor
Leoben
D'Anna Beers (Lucy Lawless)
Tour guide man (forget his name, but he teamed with the Six on caprica that followed Helo and Sharon); he was the Cylon from the miniseries that Baltar convinced Adama to leave at the Ragnar depot and was only accidentally right that he was a cylon


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Some more names:



Charlutz said:


> Sharon
> Six/Gina
> Brother Kavil
> Black doctor *(Simon)*
> ...


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

The making of fat Apollo


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> True. On the other hand, you weren't in the middle of a discussion about a specific episode when asking your co-workers.
> 
> Context does change meaning.
> 
> Now if you'd said "Is this the first time that someone on Galactica has jumped into atmosphere? And so close to the ground also?" then it would have been clearer that you meant the show rather than the ship. (Underlined words inserted)


Also true is the fact that this thread concerns the series with last Friday's double episode in particular. In those episodes, the only craft seen jumping were the raptors, so there was no need to pinpoint the type of craft jumping. My question was open as to the type of craft jumping into lower atmosphere because there is more than one type of craft capable of interstellar (or system) transport which can also operate in lower atmosphere, *which excludes a Battlestar or Cylon base ship.*.


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

Figaro said:


> The making of fat Apollo


Very cool video!

thanks!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I am skeptical that Leoben provided the sperm...I'm willing to believe that Kara provided the egg... 

so I think the girl is Kara's but the father remains in doubt... 

I just don't see a reason for the cylons to waste one of the twelve models on a child (with the obvious limitations as a spylon)...


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Up until now, I sort of worked it out in my head that the reason they were having a male human impregnate a Spylon female was because they had the technology to incubate a hybrid, but not the DNA to get the process going.

But if now they're saying the Leoben is the sperm donor, then I have no clue why they don't just boink each other and start making a Spylon army.

I just thought of a reason why there are only 12 models - the 12 want to keep it that way! Otherwise, they loose their uniqueness.


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## maximumtwo (Oct 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> I'm shocked that it took so many posts until this was mentioned...the parallels to current event was quite jarring and very cleverly done...
> 
> this was simply brilliant...
> 
> the firing squad sequence was very much like "The Great Escape"...anyone else notice that?


I have LOVED BSG from the very beginning. Maybe I am a wuss but I didn't like last weeks episode. I did think "The Great Escape" ending was a little much. But I thought the whole thing was a little to Hitlerish.

For all of those asking about Starbuck, just remember what she says "We fight until we can't"

The good news is the teacher (EX-Pres) preformed the great escape because she was in the previews for this week and Commander "FATSO" loses some weight.

We will see what happens.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Didn't the Spylons once say that the reason they were trying to knock up humans (or get knocked up by them) was because they couldn't knock each other up, and their theory was that it was because Splyon-Spylon lovin' lacked love?


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Charlutz said:


> Great points on the Cylon test and completely consistent with what we were shown. Did you surmise what happened, or did it come from another source as they didn't give that detail in the show?


Thanks. I guess you could call it supposition based on what was said about Cylon physiology and the radiation cloud where the humans had stored their weapons depot, and what Six told Baltar. Maybe I would have called it a deduction. I had no other source of information other then the actual shows as they have been broadcast.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Otherwise, they loose their uniqueness.


And nobody wants loose uniqueness!


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Didn't the Spylons once say that the reason they were trying to knock up humans (or get knocked up by them) was because they couldn't knock each other up, and their theory was that it was because Splyon-Spylon lovin' lacked love?


Sorta, I think. I don't think it's a lack of Cylon love but a lack of love in general. The reason they had Sharon get together with Helo on Caprica was for her to get Helo to fall in love with her. They believed that if Helo loved her then he could impregnate her.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Figaro said:


> The making of fat Apollo


His voice is freaking me out man!!!


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> And nobody wants loose uniqueness!


Dammit!


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

busyba said:


> His voice is freaking me out man!!!


He does come off as a prissy brit doesn't he? Wait that is redundant...


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

maximumtwo said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The good news is the teacher (EX-Pres) preformed the great escape because she was in the previews for this week and Commander "FATSO" loses some weight.


  Spoiler tag any discussion of previews as per forums rules!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Didn't the Spylons once say that the reason they were trying to knock up humans (or get knocked up by them) was because they couldn't knock each other up, and their theory was that it was because Splyon-Spylon lovin' lacked love?


well...

if all it took was doing it with humans, they could have done that a million times (dibs on Boomer!)...they didn't need to do all those tests and go to all those lengths to mate Sharon with Helo...they said that they tried and failed...

this is why I think Leoben is lying (or they FINALLY succeeded) and the sperm belongs to a human...

on the other hand, Sharon and Helo did succeed...and love was in the air...and Leoben loves Kara...

hmmm...


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Sherminator said:


> Did I say a Battlestar? I meant has *the show* ever jumped any craft directly jumped into extremely low orbit within the atmosphere?


Misread on my part.

Yes, they have.

phox


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

phox_mulder said:


> Misread on my part.
> 
> Yes, they have.
> 
> phox


No worries, I guess you've seen my battle with the ambiguity police 

I also concede, that I should have placed a smiley on the post that you quoted.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Sherminator said:


> No worries, I guess you've seen my battle with the ambiguity police
> 
> I also concede, that I should have placed a smiley on the post that you quoted.


Ya, I saw that after I responded.

It would be a cool shot though, the actual Battlestar, Galactica (or Pegasus even), jumping in right over the detention prison and letting loose with the rail guns.

phox


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## GregA (Sep 1, 2002)

busyba said:


> His voice is freaking me out man!!!


But, but, this ones goes to ELEVEN !


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## Bribo (Feb 17, 2003)

I kept wainting for David St. Hubbins to walk out...


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## Bribo (Feb 17, 2003)

I just thought of something, and forgive me if i missed it. Why did the humans put the weapons depot in the radiation cloud, and how did Adama know that it would make the Cylons sick/die. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they _not_ know that Cylons had been able to take human form? Would the radiation cloud have affected the Centurions? I guess I just don't remember from the beginning what the case was.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

They put Ragnar Anchorage (the ammo depo) in the radiation cloud knowing it was toxic to Cylons. Adama had his suspicions about Leoben and made the leap of logic that he was a human form Cylon when he started showing signs of silica poisoning.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> They put Ragnar Anchorage (the ammo depo) in the radiation cloud knowing it was toxic to Cylons. Adama had his suspicions about Leoben and made the leap of logic that he was a human form Cylon when he started showing signs of silica poisoning.


I thought they put the ammo depo there just because it was "hidden", not because it harmed cylons...you don't want to put your stash somewhere easy to spot from a passing ship, so they hid their weapons in places that are hard to check...the fact that the radiation hurt the spylons was an added bonus, but I thought it was an unexpected one...


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I thought they put the ammo depo there just because it was "hidden", not because it harmed cylons...you don't want to put your stash somewhere easy to spot from a passing ship, so they hid their weapons in places that are hard to check...the fact that the radiation hurt the spylons was an added bonus, but I thought it was an unexpected one...


That's definitely how I remember it too; they didn't have any idea that it would hurt cylons (of course they didn't even know spylons existed at all so they couldn't have put it there because of them).


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

madscientist said:


> That's definitely how I remember it too; they didn't have any idea that it would hurt cylons (of course they didn't even know spylons existed at all so they couldn't have put it there because of them).


Au contrair (sp?). Adama mentioned to Leoben that the reason they hid the depo there was due to the radiation.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Au contrair (sp?). Adama mentioned to Leoben that the reason they hid the depo there was due to the radiation.


Mais non  ...the radiation was a good cover (you had to know how to navigate through it)...

don't know why I'm arguing, since I'm not sure!


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I can check my DVD tonight. I could be remembering it wrong.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> They put Ragnar Anchorage (the ammo depo) in the radiation cloud knowing it was toxic to Cylons. Adama had his suspicions about Leoben and made the leap of logic that he was a human form Cylon when he started showing signs of silica poisoning.


I agree. Adama had knowledge no one else in the "landing party" had. That would suggest that either only high level officers would have the information or it was knowledge gained during the first cylon war. Adama definately knew Leoben was a skinjob due to the poisoning since humans are unaffected by it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> I agree. Adama had knowledge no one else in the "landing party" had. That would suggest that either only high level officers would have the information or it was knowledge gained during the first cylon war. Adama definately knew Leoben was a skinjob due to the poisoning since humans are unaffected by it.


no...that much I am sure of...Adama had no idea the guy was a cylon but deduced that while on their walk through the station looking for an exit...Adama made it clear that he figured it out just then, not that he had any prior information...

the only question is if they thought the radiation also hurts the toasters (the only models they were aware of) and thus hid the ammo there for that reason...


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Anubys said:


> no...that much I am sure of...Adama had no idea the guy was a cylon but deduced that while on their walk through the station looking for an exit...Adama made it clear that he figured it out just then, not that he had any prior information...
> 
> the only question is if they thought the radiation also hurts the toasters (the only models they were aware of) and thus hid the ammo there for that reason...


I think you misunderstood, or I didn't communicate effectively.  Adama did figure it out during the walk, but I think that it was based on knowledge gained from either of the two areas I mentioned. Prior knowledge about the radiation poisoning from the first war, or inside information circulating among high level officers during or after the war.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Anubys said:


> the only question is if they thought the radiation also hurts the toasters (the only models they were aware of) and thus hid the ammo there for that reason...


Uh, yeah. Think about it, why would Adama mention the silica poisoning to Leoben if he didn't know the radiation cloud hurt the toasters?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Uh, yeah. Think about it, why would Adama mention the silica poisoning to Leoben if he didn't know the radiation cloud hurt the toasters?


because he said as much...I'm paraphrasing here, but something along the lines "something about this place messes up with your circuits or something"...he was just guessing...


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Anubys said:


> because he said as much...I'm paraphrasing here, but something along the lines "something about this place messes up with your circuits or something"...he was just guessing...


Like I said, I may be misremembering, so I'll check the DVD tonight. Now I'm very curious about it.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

The only thing I really get about this whole line of reasoning is that for whatever reason medical technology among the colonists really sucks. Even before the attack they hadn't been able to cure cancer in el presidente. Combine that sorry state of things with Cottle just being a hack military surgeon and you have the reason that a microscope can't give you the information you need to determine the differences between them. 

That whole line of reasoning stinks in it's explaination and reveal and the issue about silica poisoning is just another example of the poorly thought out nature of the cylons. 

Writers: They should be indistinguishable from humans.
Producer: They have to do stuff normal humans can't though, like sticking fiber optic in their veins, glowing spines so people will be reminded of the glowing eyes from the first show, and be able to communicate over several lightyears to download into another body. 
Wirters: This stuff has to be invisible too.

us: uggghh!


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## Bribo (Feb 17, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> They put Ragnar Anchorage (the ammo depo) in the radiation cloud knowing it was toxic to Cylons. Adama had his suspicions about Leoben and made the leap of logic that he was a human form Cylon when he started showing signs of silica poisoning.


I think that makes the most sense, the cloud must have been toxic to Centurions, and Adama knew there were human form Cylons, so he deduced that Leoben was a Cylon because he also got sick. He didn't know prior, just figured it out. I'll just go with that.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Bribo said:


> I think that makes the most sense, the cloud must have been toxic to Centurions, and Adama knew there were human form Cylons, so he deduced that Leoben was a Cylon because he also got sick. He didn't know prior, just figured it out. I'll just go with that.


I don't know, didn't a couple Centurions enter the depo with the skinjobs at the end of the Mini?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> I don't know, didn't a couple Centurions enter the depo with the skinjobs at the end of the Mini?


Yes, but (like the skinjobs they were with) they weren't there long enough to get sick.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Okay, straight from the miniseries DVD:

Adama first appears to be catching on when he begins questioning Leoben about being an arms smuggler. He purposefully shines his flashlight at Leoben's face and says "you don't look so good." Leoben shrugs it off as "allergies" triggered by something in Ragnar. Then they're throw into the passageway and sealed off when a warhead accidentally explodes.

Adama follows Leoben thru the passage as they converse. His condition is deteriorating and he mentions that his allergies have been acting up ever since he got here. Adama is more suspicious. Leoben trips up even more when he says "what if god (singular) decided he made a mistake? And he decided to give souls to another creature? Like the Cylons." Adama is now certain about his Cylon-ness, IMO.

A little while later, Leoben can barely walk and Adama finally confronts him knowingly. Leoben says "what is it about this place? What's it doing to me?"

Adama slyly says "it must be your allergies."

Leoben knows the jig is up. He says "I don't have allergies."

"I didn't think so," Adama intones. "But you've got silica pathways to the brain or whatever it is you call that thing you pretend to think with. It's decomposing as we speak."

"It's the storm, isn't it?" Leoben asks without needing an answer. "It puts out something. Something you discovered has an effect on Cylon technology. That's it, isn't it. And this is a refuge. That's why you put the fleet out here. A last ditch effort to hide from the Cylon attack, right?"

He goes on about how the other Cylons are coming and will have enough time to attack and slaughter the humans, blah blah.

The point is: yes - the humans knew of the radioactive cloud and that's why they put Ragnar Anchorage there.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Small but critical addition:


IndyJones1023 said:


> The point is: yes - the humans knew of the radioactive cloud *and its affect on Cylons,* and that's why they put Ragnar Anchorage there.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Small but critical addition:


Sorry, that should have been implied from my position all along in this thread.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Sorry, that should have been implied from my position all along in this thread.


Yes, but in your grand and excellent summary, the point should perhaps have been made explicit.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Then thank you for the assist, Rob!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I won't allow something as insignificant as hard cold facts to change my mind now...

stay the course, I say! I hereby state it emphatically that the humans had no idea about the effects of the radiation...


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