# What do you think Premiere Elite should have?



## callejon (Jan 3, 2009)

Don't get me wrong, I have 3 TiVo HDs and I am a fan. But this Premiere Elite is too little, too late for the costs. After you buy the box and lifetime service it's $1000. Couldn't they have added something else to set it apart?

Why no Sirius Radio streaming? Itunes integration? What about some kind of Android OS so you could download stuff from the market or Amazon Appstore?


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## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

4 tuners and 300+ hours of HD was enough for me.


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## callejon (Jan 3, 2009)

I was hoping that the Premiere Elite could be the total "box" that I could attach to my TV. Right now I have PS3, and apple Tv hoolked up. Then I use my computer to stream Sirius radio to crappy computer speakers. I also have an Android tablet I use for comixology. I was hoping to listen to Howard Stern on my surround sound and read comics on my 47" TV.


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## uw69 (Jan 25, 2001)

Functionality of a Roku type box, OTA tuners would have been what I needed to fork over $1K.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

callejon said:


> I was hoping that the Premiere Elite could be the total "box" that I could attach to my TV. Right now I have PS3, and apple Tv hoolked up. Then I use my computer to stream Sirius radio to crappy computer speakers. I also have an Android tablet I use for comixology. I was hoping to listen to Howard Stern on my surround sound and read comics on my 47" TV.


I've setup a pretty good system using an Airport Express connected to my sound system and a Airfoil + XMicroplayer running on WinXPSP2 virtual machine to get the sirius to the airport express. For a while I tried using the iPad, but the sirius iPad app is crap, disconnecting frequently. My current system is described here: http://www.smbaker.com/scotts-ipad-digital-audio-optical-receiver-amplifier

Also, I did at one time work on a PyTivo plugin to pipe Sirius onto the Tivo. It worked kinda so-so. The big issue was that it wasn't all that convenient to power on the TV, navigate into PyTivo, find the Sirius app, turn the TV back off, etc., whenever I wanted to run the radio.

I also tried to use the Sirius client in my Onkyo receiver, which also turned out to be junk.

Sirius online radio seems to suffer from a lack of decent reliable client devices.


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## callejon (Jan 3, 2009)

That is awesome! Nice work!


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

I would have liked the Elite to come with a 3GB user replaceable hard drive. Having only 2GB for a 4 tuner box when I already have that amount for my 2 tuner Premiere makes me sad.

Also, there should have been a $50 rebate for people who already own a Premiere.


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

Another vote for OTA tuners.


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## jfalkingham (Jul 23, 2002)

mrsean said:


> I would have liked the Elite to come with a 3GB user replaceable hard drive. Having only 2GB for a 4 tuner box when I already have that amount for my 2 tuner Premiere makes me sad.
> 
> Also, there should have been a $50 rebate for people who already own a Premiere.


If your Best Buy has one, use this coupon for 10% off:
http://m.bestbuy.com/mobile/coupons...525062-HOME3.html&ref=39&CJPID=2026489&loc=01

I picked one up today for $449.


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## callejon (Jan 3, 2009)

Was I the only guy hoping for more? My rooted nook color runs the android market. Don't tell me TiVo couldn't have added that. Isn't the Android OS free? I would like the ability to store more than 2 tb of programs too


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

jay_man2 said:


> 4 tuners and 300+ hours of HD was enough for me.


Not for $900.

Give it OTA and the Slide Remote then maybe.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

HomieG said:


> Another vote for OTA tuners.


Same here. Thats why I wont buy one. Still waiting for a reason to break away from the Series 3 and havent found one yet.


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## bearcat2000 (Aug 13, 2005)

as a loyal TiVo customer, I asked them if they would throw in a slider remote in addition to my order of Elite with lifetime...they didn't blink and said they would. Happy here.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bearcat2000 said:


> as a loyal TiVo customer, I asked them if they would throw in a slider remote in addition to my order of Elite with lifetime...they didn't blink and said they would. Happy here.


Sweet deal. I would love to have received a free BT remote.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

MeInDallas said:


> Same here. Thats why I wont buy one. Still waiting for a reason to break away from the Series 3 and havent found one yet.


So far TiVo has proven that combination devices are not the way to go. It seems like combination DVR and connected streaming device would be a great product but TiVo has not been able or willing to deliver it.

The Series 3 HD, TiVo HD/XL, & TiVo Premiere/XL are all excellent DVRs. When it comes to using them as a DVR there is very little reason to pick one over the other unless you just want a busy graphical UI.

If someone really wants a connect streaming device they really should just buy a stand alone one, Roku, Apple TV, Boxee Box, Google TV, WD TV Live, etc., they are all superior to a Premiere at streaming media.

It is a shame TiVo missed a golden opportunity but they have missed it. Even if tomorrow they release software that Turned Premieres into a better or at least as good a media streaming device as the stand alone ones I am not sure it would matter.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Resist said:


> Not for $900.
> 
> Give it OTA and the Slide Remote then maybe.


To add 4 OTA tuners, it will be well over $1000. My guess is TiVo knows how often OTA users have conflicts and it wasn't worth the price to add them. More people have bought it at the current price point ($500) than they would at $700 even if it had OTA tuners.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> Sweet deal. I would love to have received a free BT remote.


Technically you did if you paid $449 for the Elite and bought the Slide for $40 .

I am happy with the Elite at the current price. Would I love it to be lower or come with more? Sure. I didn't think twice about picking one up at launch. I keep meaning to try listing my HD with lifetime to see what I can get, but BB is still sold out locally on the Elite so it doesn't matter right now.


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## uw69 (Jan 25, 2001)

MeInDallas said:


> Same here. Thats why I wont buy one. Still waiting for a reason to break away from the Series 3 and havent found one yet.


+1


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think the Elite needs better software, plain and simple. The HD UI is still only half finished and most of the external apps, like Netflix, are severely outdated. TiVo needs to invest the effort into finishing the HD UI and speeding it up as much as possible. Then they need to work on bringing their external apps up to date. They've been resting on their laurels for too long.

4 tuners is great, TiVo to TiVo streaming is great, but the basic user experience is still broken. :down:

Dan


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

rainwater said:


> To add 4 OTA tuners, it will be well over $1000. My guess is TiVo knows how often OTA users have conflicts and it wasn't worth the price to add them. More people have bought it at the current price point ($500) than they would at $700 even if it had OTA tuners.


Or Tivo left out the OTA tuners so they could make a deal with the Cable companies. Because once a customer invests this much money into an Elite they then won't drop their cable TV. So it makes me wonder if this was something big cable worked out as a condition in the deal with Tivo.

I'm not pointing fingers and understand Tivo needs to make a profit to survive. Business is business after all.

But wouldn't it be great if someone made a stand alone tuner box that could be connected to the Elite for OTA use?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Resist said:


> But wouldn't it be great if someone made a stand alone tuner box that could be connected to the Elite for OTA use?


They might be able to do it via USB or network interface like HDHomeRun. Although I doubt there is enough demand for the R&D needed to develop something like that.

Dan


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

Resist said:


> But wouldn't it be great if someone made a stand alone tuner box that could be connected to the Elite for OTA use?


I was thinking this same exact thing! Hopefully someone will be working on something like this, maybe even if TiVo gets enough calls from people wanting to purchase one they might do it. Remember how all the digital boxes popped up when we were making the digital switch, now is time for the same concept. I dont want to invest this kind of money in something and then it be tied forever to a cable company.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> 4 tuners is great, TiVo to TiVo streaming is great, but the basic user experience is still broken. :down:


Tivo to Tivo streaming doesn't work, at least for more than a few. Yet.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jfh3 said:


> Tivo to Tivo streaming doesn't work, at least for more than a few. Yet.


It works if you have two Elites.

Dan


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> It works if you have two Elites.
> 
> Dan


Not for me. According to @tivodesign, the MRS function is not supported now.
It is left as an exercise to the user as to why it works for the two that have rooted it.

Do you have 2 elites? Do you have MRS working?


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Funny complaints, the Elite is too expensive and doesn't include OTA tuners. Of course a huge majority of the market for the product will use the product with cable exclusively and adding OTA tuners will unnecessarily add cost to the product for the majority of its market. If there really is any market for an Elite with 4 OTA tuners at the price necessary to offer the product, contact TiVo and let them know. I think TiVo got this correct, there is no market willing to pay the price necessary for a DVR like the Elite for OTA. The market for a 4 cable tuner DVR with 2TB at $500 plus subscription isn't big but the market willing to pay whatever would be necessary to also have 4 OTA tuners is so tiny that it can't be bothered with. For my needs as an OTA user after cutting the cord, a 2-tuner DVR at a low cost is exactly what I want. TiVo has the best product on the market and compared with what competition there is, it is a great value and the only product that suits my needs.


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## uw69 (Jan 25, 2001)

The whole dvr segment is small, why exclude anyone? Two/four OTA tuners couldn't be very expensive. TiVo has had them on most models that I can recall.


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## Len McRiddles (Dec 21, 2002)

MeInDallas said:


> Same here. Thats why I wont buy one. Still waiting for a reason to break away from the Series 3 and havent found one yet.


No OTA was the deal breaker.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

uw69 said:


> The whole dvr segment is small, why exclude anyone? Two/four OTA tuners couldn't be very expensive. TiVo has had them on most models that I can recall.


Go ahead and provide some evidence it couldn't be very expensive to add 4 OTA tuners. My opinion based on the fact the Elite doesn't include 4 OTA tuners and the fact no other DVR includes 4 OTA tuners and it is expensive to built an HTPC with 4 OTA tuners capable of handling everything necessary is that it would be expensive but if you evidence that is false, let's see it. I don't think the current box has adequate processing power and it would be prohibitively expensive when you consider the market is whining about the $500 price for the DVR with 4 cable tuners only.

Complaints like it is too expensive but it should do more which would cost more or TiVo should just eat the cost so the product can be inexpensive and suit everbody is what I see here commonly. If a box with all internet functionality and 4 cable and 4 OTA tuners was easy to do at a price the market would bear, it would be for sale from someboody, it doesn't exist and there is no market willing to pay the necessary price is the real world explanation but nobody wants common sense to get in the way of a good whining rant.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

uw69 said:


> Two/four OTA tuners couldn't be very expensive.


Really? Just exactly what chips/components would you have added to the Elite?

Why is it that so many people seem to think that adding the OTA support to the Elite would have been so trivial and/or inexpensive?

The wholesale cost is around $350, so I would guess Tivo cost is around $300 (I'm assuming there is no hardware subsidy on an Elite like there is on the other boxes). Can't add too much more to the box without significantly increasing the retail cost to a point the market won't bare.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

Len McRiddles said:


> No OTA was the deal breaker.


Exactly! I was excited about the thing until I saw in big red letters "Please note: This product requires digital cable" and that was the end of that.

I spoke to a TiVo salesman yesterday (about the $99 deal from Solid Signal) and he told me that most cities dont have enough over the air channels to benefit having 4 tuners, and I told him back that we definately do in Dallas. Most cities have ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS so thats 5 main ones plus all your local channels so I dont know where he got that at. He still tried to sell me one and said they could ship it out the same day and I told him it would be worthless to me. Get in touch with me when they get OTA tuners in it.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Sadly as much as everyone would love a 1 box solution. That isn't going to happen for a very long time.

I haven't installed or started to use my Elite unit yet. But I got it simply becauase it has bulit in MoCa, 4 tuners and the 2tb hard drive, as well as being a premiere unit.

As far as games go. I use an XBox 360. The big game boxes aren't abotu to let anyone else "run" or play their games. So if you want gameing, your pretty much stuck buying a game box from one of the big 3. (Xbox, Wii, or PS3). If you don't care about gaming. Then You won't need a game box.

I also have a networked Blu-ray player. It does basicaly everything a Roku, or Xbox, or PS3 does as far as playing media content from my NAS (Networked Attached Storage) or off the internet. (netflix, Vudu, Amazon, Blockbuster, Pandora, Rhapsoday) etc...

The TiVo Premiers pretty much do the almost as much different media content. What the TiVo lacks in one area, my Blu-ray/internet box make up for it, The XBox basically overlaps both the Bluray/internet box as well as the TiVo.

My new bedroom Samsung TV has built in Internet/network connection as well. While I don't have a blu-ray player for my bedroom, with the TiVo Premiere and a the Samsung Internet connected TV. I don't really need it.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

MeInDallas said:


> I spoke to a TiVo salesman yesterday (about the $99 deal from Solid Signal) and he told me that most cities dont have enough over the air channels to benefit having 4 tuners, and I told him back that we definately do in Dallas. Most cities have ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS so thats 5 main ones plus all your local channels so I dont know where he got that at.


TiVo knows exactly how many conflicts OTA users have. They have had this data for years. If there was a market for a 4 tuner OTA market they would create one. But sadly, there isn't. And the Elite box was designed for cable MSOs and high end users. Again, these are not OTA users. So it made since to not add hundreds of dollars to a box that few would use.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

MeInDallas said:


> I spoke to a TiVo salesman yesterday (about the $99 deal from Solid Signal) and he told me that most cities don't have enough over the air channels to benefit having 4 tuners, and I told him back that we definately do in Dallas. Most cities have ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS so thats 5 main ones plus all your local channels so I dont know where he got that at.


No OTA option is a killer for me. Of course they are gonna tell people this and try to downplay the whole thing as described above, but I personally think the reason this new TiVo Elite has no OTA tuners is cause TiVo is in bed with the cable companies. Pure & simple. Cable companies realize there is a growing market/threat out there where people are going with numerous cheaper alternatives like NETFLIX, Hulu and OTA service instead of going with Cable companies. No need for them. Granted, its a small threat right now, but its slowly growing and I think it could pick up a LOT of steam here soon.

They downplay it all the time & will NEVER admit it, but I think its a quiet threat they see on the horizon & are closely keeping an eye on. Therefore, cable companies have politely told TiVo to dump the OTA option or we will make our cable system wind up not working with your DVR (via the cable cards). Essentially, this move is an EASY way to get rid of one of the competitors in a sneaky back door kind of way. Almost a form a extortion if you ask me. I know what your are saying....why don't they then just do the same with NETFLIX and HULU too. Cause THAT would be a killer and too much. This is a SMALL victory they can claim for now.

Again, they would NEVER admit this publicly as it would most likely get another visit from the FCC, but I definitely think its a game that is going on.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Does the shinny side go in or out on a tinfoil hat?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

buscuitboy said:


> No OTA option is a killer for me. Of course they are gonna tell people this and try to downplay the whole thing as described above, but I personally think the reason this new TiVo Elite has no OTA tuners is cause TiVo is in bed with the cable companies.


So you think they should of included OTA tuners, charged $800 for the Elite, then sold it to cable MSOs who will have no need for the tuners? I fail to see how that would be a very attractable device.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

buscuitboy said:


> No OTA option is a killer for me. Of course they are gonna tell people this and try to downplay the whole thing as described above, but I personally think the reason this new TiVo Elite has no OTA tuners is cause TiVo is in bed with the cable companies. Pure & simple. Cable companies realize there is a growing market/threat out there where people are going with numerous cheaper alternatives like NETFLIX, Hulu and OTA service instead of going with Cable companies. No need for them. Granted, its a small threat right now, but its slowly growing and I think it could pick up a LOT of steam here soon.
> 
> They downplay it all the time & will NEVER admit it, but I think its a quiet threat they see on the horizon & are closely keeping an eye on. Therefore, cable companies have politely told TiVo to dump the OTA option or we will make our cable system wind up not working with your DVR (via the cable cards). Essentially, this move is an EASY way to get rid of one of the competitors in a sneaky back door kind of way. Almost a form a extortion if you ask me. I know what your are saying....why don't they then just do the same with NETFLIX and HULU too. Cause THAT would be a killer and too much. This is a SMALL victory they can claim for now.
> 
> Again, they would NEVER admit this publicly as it would most likely get another visit from the FCC, but I definitely think its a game that is going on.


I gotta agree with you on that. I cant wait until some stats come out on how well (or not so well) this new Elite is selling. Of course the people that use it and have cable are gonna be pro for it, and the the OTA people are going to hate it. I'm still on Series 3 and as many deals as I keep finding on buying the Premiere, I just cant see spending the money on taking the plunge for pretty much what I already have now.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

rainwater said:


> TiVo knows exactly how many conflicts OTA users have. *They have had this data for years*.


Any data they have from the analog era is outdated. Back then stations just had the one channel and conflicts were rare.
Now that OTA has gone digital, this allowed stations to add sub-channels. Most stations now have at least one sub channel. Here in Dallas, I think I counted >60 channels in the full line-up. This increases the chances for conflicts. 


> If there was a market for a 4 tuner OTA market they would create one. But sadly, there isn't.


I think there will be. There's recently been an upswing in posts here from people "cutting the cord" and this forum only represents a fraction of the population. Think of how many "cord cutters" are out there that don't bother posting on internet forums.
___________________________

I wonder what the cost difference is between an OTA tuner module and a cable tuner module.
If TiVo could make an OTA only Elite by just switching tuners (e.g. no other hardware modifications), and keep the same price point, it would sell.
TiVo just won't do it because they're brown nosing the cable companies.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

SullyND said:


> Does the shinny side go in or out on a tinfoil hat?


Shiny side out. More chance the ray beams are reflected away.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

steve614 said:


> I think there will be. There's recently been an upswing in posts here from people "cutting the cord" and this forum only represents a fraction of the population. Think of how many "cord cutters" are out there that don't bother posting on internet forums.


I don't think many cord cutters are willing to pay $800 for a box plus pay for service. TiVo already has a OTA box that is dual tuner. My guess is it will be 2-3 years before TiVo could develop an affordable 4 tuner OTA + cable box that would be cost effective. Doing this now would cost TiVo millions of dollars in lost revenue since the Elite was designed mainly for cable MSOs (so they would be losing a lot of money per box for tuners that will never be used).


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I think I will comment I the lack of OTA tuners in the Elite and the potential demand for a 4 tuner OTA DVR. 

First I will say I am OTA only and second I currently have 3 HD TiVos with 6 tuners and 5.25 TB of storage used for OTA only.

As for the Elite being digital cable only, it makes complete sense as TiVo developed it for cable companies and that is the only reason it is available to the Stand Alone market. To keep costs down it was built on the Premiere (Series 4) platform and first announced as the Premiere Q and was to only be available from cable companies. At that time there was some discussion about what it would have taken to put 8 tuners in it (4 cable & 4 OTA) those in the know (not me) seemed to indicate there would be significant cost issues. 

Now onto if OTA user would like or could use a 4 tuner DVR. Well from my point of view YES. I often have 3-4 things recording at the same time, however it is very rare to have more than 4. 

If TiVo thought there was a significant enough of a market for an OTA 4 tuner DVR the way to deliver it would be to take the Elite replace the 4 cable tuners with 4 OTA tuners, remove the cable card, Not THX certify it and sell it for $199 plus service. 

But my honest opinion is the Premiere is the best option for OTA users. If they want more than 2 tuners or have multiple TVs, multiple DVRs make more sense to me than one 4 tuner DVR. 

Thanks,

Thanks,


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

steve614 said:


> Any data they have from the analog era is outdated. Back then stations just had the one channel and conflicts were rare.


I agree with you that conflicts are MORE likely due to more sub-channels, but I completely disagree that they are rare.

Even though I am a cable subscriber, the VAST majority of what I actually watch is broadcast channels, which I happen to receive via my cable. (Yes, even though I also have other channels, I actually got cable originally to get better overall reception of my OTA channels, especially since receiving some of my channels via antenna would require turning the antenna 180 degrees in the other direction.)

MANY days of the week, I have several shows opposite each other in prime time that I want to record.. and with the timeslot games, I need padding. Even ignoring padding, 4 tuners would "suffice". (PBS shows re-air, so being able to record Fox, NBC, CBS, ABC in some situations would be great..) But since padding _is_ needed, 4 tuners actually isn't quite enough.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

callejon said:


> Was I the only guy hoping for more?


Probably. The rest of us know what to expect from TiVo. 



> _My rooted nook color runs the android market. Don't tell me TiVo couldn't have added that._


TiVo couldn't have added that. Apart from the fact that they both run on a Linux kernel, the TiVo platform is very unlike typical Android devices.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

steve614 said:


> Any data they have from the analog era is outdated. Back then stations just had the one channel and conflicts were rare.
> ............


I would have had conflicts all the time in the late 80s and 90s. I had several VCRs set to record my programs. Some I would let record for 30 minutes then I would switch tapes and start watching the shows on another VCR. At one point I had six or seven VCRs setup for all my recordings. And back then it was needed. Since if you missed a show you weren't going to be getting it anywhere else until they possibly showed a rerun of it later in the year.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

rainwater said:


> TiVo knows exactly how many conflicts OTA users have. They have had this data for years. If there was a market for a 4 tuner OTA market they would create one. But sadly, there isn't. And the Elite box was designed for cable MSOs and high end users. Again, these are not OTA users. So it made since to not add hundreds of dollars to a box that few would use.


Shows on cable are aired multiple times, sometimes on multiple channels, over at least a week.

OTA shows are generally broadcast once, sometimes twice. Three OTA shows air at the same time. People might just watch the third show live and not even bother setting up a SP. Tivo might not know about conflicts.

I don't think conflicts have anything to do with the decision. I think the issue is price and availability of components.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

lew said:


> I don't think conflicts have anything to do with the decision. I think the issue is price and availability of components.


I'm sure price is the biggest factor. But also, their are some hardcore ota users here. But in general, TiVo knows how small of a market their is for 4 tuners. Compared to cable, there just isn't as big desire for 4 tuners for the majority of people. I'm sure someone here is going to to say how much they need 4 tuners but that is not a reality for most OTA users.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lew said:


> Shows on cable are aired multiple times, sometimes on multiple channels, over at least a week.
> 
> OTA shows are generally broadcast once, sometimes twice. Three OTA shows air at the same time. People might just watch the third show live and not even bother setting up a SP. Tivo might not know about conflicts.
> 
> I don't think conflicts have anything to do with the decision. I think the issue is price and availability of components.


good points.

I'd agree with the bottom line, its-

price/availability of components vs size of the market/price consumers willing to pay.

First people need to understand that it's apparently impractical with currently existing chip sets to do anything more than 4 tuners. You can do 4 of cable OR 4 of the OTA, 2+2, or 3+1, but inside the box it's just 4 total. So tivo can't just toss in 4 OTA tuners to an elite giving it 8 tuners. They need to decide on selling 4+0, 0+4, or some combo of 3 and 1.

Second,m this isn't the first thread at all with the arguments from the OTA people. The bottom line is the size of the market is multiple times larger for cable households than OTA only households. Beyond that the size segments of each willing to pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for for such a box is bigger in the cable domain. Google the numbers yourselves-I posted a couple links in earlier threads- there's statistics on the web about the %'s of households. And with those statistics there are some demographic numbers. While many OTA only might be the well off (like those of us in these forums likely are) and made a choice , there are plenty who are OTA only because they can't afford a cable bill not because they choose not to. There's no segment at all of the cable market that has pays a monthly cable tv bill because they can't afford to have FREE OTA.

So if you have to choose which 4+0 to try first then cable wins. AND that's IGNORING that RCN, Suddenling, ETC are going to be jump starting the whole product line- further increasing the economies of scale or flat out subsidizing TiVo's R&D, manufacturing, stock keeping, etc, etc

With the above facts it's just silly to think that Tivo would try a 4 tuner OTA box FIRST before trying a 4 tuner cable box.

The OTA people rooting for the box to fail so tivo on cable have it all wrong. They should hope it's a giant success so that tivo thinks it's worth a shot at selling a follow up 4 tuner OTA only box.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

best comment in the thread.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

MichaelK - terrific post!


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

For the next generation TiVo DVR and in the future, I wonder if they could simply sell a 4 tuner box that has the OPTION of how you want those tuners to be distributed; either OTA or digital cable. The antenna hookup could be there, but when subscribing, you simply have to state whether your setup will be OTA or cable customer. Then TiVo can push the approriate software/firmware update to your box via an internet connect. 

If its digital cable based software/firmware, then the ANTENNA hookup is simply fully disabled. If OTA software, then the cable card slot is disabled instead. This way, also satisfy a much wider audience without having to have two totally different designed DVRs. One box covers all options. Just a thought & theory.


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## RickL66 (May 13, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> It works if you have two Elites.
> 
> Dan


You saying that if I had two elites, I can transfer copy protected shows unrestricted between the two? If that was the case, it would be a very expensive upgrade to get two elites with a total of 8 tuners and lifetime at the tune of $2000. My biggest pisser is that I can't even transfer shows I recorded in the family room and watch in the bedroom with my current S3s, unless it was from a local network channel (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX).


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

buscuitboy said:


> For the next generation TiVo DVR and in the future, I wonder if they could simply sell a 4 tuner box that has the OPTION of how you want those tuners to be distributed; either OTA or digital cable. The antenna hookup could be there, but when subscribing, you simply have to state whether your setup will be OTA or cable customer.


No, that isn't possible. The tuners are specific to what they can tune. You can't control that with software.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

RickL66 said:


> You saying that if I had two elites, I can transfer copy protected shows unrestricted between the two? If that was the case, it would be a very expensive upgrade to get two elites with a total of 8 tuners and lifetime at the tune of $2000. My biggest pisser is that I can't even transfer shows I recorded in the family room and watch in the bedroom with my current S3s, unless it was from a local network channel (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX).


When MRS is enabled (it isn't yet), yes. You will be able to do that between Premieres (Elite or not), but almost certainly not to/from the S3.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

MeInDallas said:


> I spoke to a TiVo salesman yesterday (about the $99 deal from Solid Signal) and he told me that most cities dont have enough over the air channels to benefit having 4 tuners


Figures Tivo would say something like that. You only need to get more than two channels to see that a Tivo with more than two tuners is a huge benefit. And very few people receive two or less air channels.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Resist said:


> Figures Tivo would say something like that. You only need to get more than two channels to see that a Tivo with more than two tuners is a huge benefit. And very few people receive two or less air channels.


What TiVo said is true though. There was never much of a demand for more than 2 tuners on TiVo's analog TiVos. And OTA will usually have less channels than a analog cable lineup. Like I have said before, this forum does not represent the customer base.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

rainwater said:


> There was never much of a demand for more than 2 tuners on TiVo's analog TiVos.


That's because they were analog. Things are different now.



rainwater said:


> OTA will usually have less channels than a analog cable lineup.


And as I said, most people have more than two air channels. So a DVR with a recording capability of more than two tuners is something most people would want. Maybe we need a poll for OTA users to confirm this.

All I know is that I like the ability of my Tivo to have the ability of OTA, it gives me an option should I drop my Cable service in the future. Does Tivo assume most people get two or less air channels? If Tivo never did OTA then this would not be a topic for discussion.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Resist said:


> And as I said, most people have more than two air channels. So a DVR with a recording capability of more than two tuners is something most people would want. Maybe we need a poll for OTA users to confirm this.


So if there are more than 2 channels, a 4 tuner DVR is needed? I don't follow that logic. I'm sure a poll will tell you that every user wants a 20 tuner DVR. But that doesn't mean that is needed. Fact is, most OTA users aren't even using DVRs. The one's that do aren't likely to spend a lot of money on a DVR. So it isn't in TiVo's best interest to focus on a market that doesn't even show up on the radar compared to cable companies. They already have provided a suitable dvr that works with both (the premiere). I don't see them changing that configuration to focus on OTA users.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

rainwater said:


> So if there are more than 2 channels, a 4 tuner DVR is needed? I don't follow that logic.


I only said 2 channels in response to your statement where Tivo said there wasn't much demand for more than 2 tuners. Do you follow the logic now? I could have just as easily said 4 channels instead of 2, if that helps you.



rainwater said:


> Fact is, most OTA users aren't even using DVRs.


True, but we're talking about OTA Tivo users. It's pointless to post facts about non Tivo households.

Look, the fact is simple, Tivo released the Elite as a Cable only device to solidify their business with big Cable. This is good for them but bad for the consumer in an economy where people are cutting back on their Cable services. Yes this doesn't effect all consumers as many will stick with Cable TV no matter how much it cost them each month.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Resist said:


> True, but we're talking about OTA Tivo users. It's pointless to post facts about non Tivo households.


It's not pointless if we are discussing TiVo creating a 4 tuner OTA TiVo. As I said, there's no market for it. TiVo is spending their time where there is a market.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Resist said:


> ...
> Look, the fact is simple, Tivo released the Elite as a Cable only device to solidify their business with big Cable . This is good for them but bad for the consumer in an economy where people are cutting back on their Cable services. Yes this doesn't effect all consumers as many will stick with Cable TV no matter how much it cost them each month.


(emphasis added by me) that's not a fact at all. that's your opinion laced with conspiracy theory.

Fact is cable is subsidizing the device for tivo and tivo is taking advantage of their cable partners to give them the ability to develop the the elite for retail sale.

Th "fact" I see is that it would be patently stupid for tivo to build a 4 tuner OTA only box first.

And are you seriously going to argue that a large group of people are going to spend 500 on an elite and perhaps another 500 on lifetime service to "cut back"? Fact is, people willing to spend $1,000 to watch TV in this economy aren't people who need to cut back, they might feel like cutting back but they probably aren't exactly the poor folks going to the local welfare office to inquire about food stamps. The people that really NEED to cut back don't have a grand to toss around for fun at the moment. Tivo's market isn't people who need to cut back (very few niche businesses aim for the low margin end of things)- tivo is looking for the people willing to toss around fat cash for a luxury, people with a lot of money to watch tv, you know like people that shop at Magnolia and the like . (oh wait I think i just realized why they sell the elite there and not the walmart  )

Any Tivo is bad for any budget conscious consumer. Complaining about the lack of an OTA elite is bad for budget conscious people is like arguing that the a new German SUV is bad for the consumer because it needed premium gasoline instead of regular.

Bottom line- tivo decided they couldn't build 2 different 4 tuner models to start. They picked the one that they thought makes the most sense and sadly for OTA folks it is most logical to start off with a cable only model.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

rainwater said:


> There was never much of a demand for more than 2 tuners on TiVo's analog TiVos.


I don't think that makes sense. I had/have as much demand for tuners on analog as digital, since even with cable, most of what I record is "broadcast" TV, and since the broadcast channels are the ones that don't rerun their shows multiple times throughout the week, I need more tuners to be able to record prime time.

(semi-ironically, I'm currently rerunning guided setup on my TivoHD to make it analog only since I seem to be having cablecard issues.)


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mattack said:


> I don't think that makes sense. I had/have as much demand for tuners on analog as digital, since even with cable, most of what I record is "broadcast" TV, and since the broadcast channels are the ones that don't rerun their shows multiple times throughout the week, I need more tuners to be able to record prime time.
> 
> (semi-ironically, I'm currently rerunning guided setup on my TivoHD to make it analog only since I seem to be having cablecard issues.)


I know when I first got my DirecTiVos around ten years ago, it wasn't analog but SD, but I needed to get three of them to make sure I would not miss shows plus have backups to the HD recordings I made from OTA with my HTPCs.

If it had been analog from a cable company I still would have needed four to six tuners. (I had two DirecTiVos in my main room with the HDTV and one in the bedroom with an SD set back then)

Looking back things are so much easier now than back then. Transfers to other TiVos, one box with four HD tuners, plus 120+ HD channels to watch compared to just a handful back then between DirecTV and OTA. Plus back then any HD from DirecTV I had to watch Live from their HD STB. It wasn't until 2004 with the HD DIrecTiVo that I could record HD from DirecTV.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

mattack said:


> I don't think that makes sense. I had/have as much demand for tuners on analog as digital, since even with cable, most of what I record is "broadcast" TV, and since the broadcast channels are the ones that don't rerun their shows multiple times throughout the week, I need more tuners to be able to record prime time.


Like I said, this forum is not a good representation of TiVo's user base. We are hardcore users. I'm not saying there aren't cases where people wished they had more than 2 tuners with analog cable. But the public wasn't clamoring for 4 tuners.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

rainwater said:


> Like I said, this forum is not a good representation of TiVo's user base. We are hardcore users. I'm not saying there aren't cases where people wished they had more than 2 tuners with analog cable. But the public wasn't clamoring for 4 tuners.


I agree that most of us posting on these forums would be considered "power users" and are not typical of the public at large.

I personally could not stand watching TV without a good DVR and find I need at least 4 tuners and many TBs of storage just for OTA. My brother and sister are also OTA only households and neither will consider paying for a DVR. Heck I haven't even been able to get by sister to buy a HD TV yet. And no neither has money problems, both households have significantly more income than I do, they just don't care much about TV.

Thanks,


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## ertyu (Nov 4, 2003)

I need OTA support and cable box support (not cable card) for it to even work for me.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ertyu said:


> I need OTA support and cable box support (not cable card) for it to even work for me.


Cable box support? That will never happen again.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

rainwater said:


> Like I said, this forum is not a good representation of TiVo's user base. We are hardcore users. I'm not saying there aren't cases where people wished they had more than 2 tuners with analog cable. But the public wasn't clamoring for 4 tuners.


They weren't clamoring, but I think people didn't KNOW what they want, because they didn't know that multiple tuners even existed.

(Heck, I used two VCRs for most of the time that I used VCRs so I could record 2 things at once, but more importantly, watch something else recorded WHILE recording something..)


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mattack said:


> (Heck, I used two VCRs for most of the time that I used VCRs so I could record 2 things at once, but more importantly, watch something else recorded WHILE recording something..)


Yeb welcome to the power user club.

I think you will find that many (most?) people in the VCR era didn't use them to record much of anything and very few people had multiple VCRs so you could actually use them effectively for time shifting.

I was busy doing other thinks back then and could go weeks without using my VCR.


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