# non-FiOS users, can you record a few shows and tell me if they're protected?



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Can anyone on a cable provider other than FiOS and on one that isn't known to throw on copy protection on most or all channels try recordings a few shows for me? See list at bottom that I'm suddenly seeing protected after 6/8.

It looks like Verizon FiOS screwed up and started putting copy protection on most/all (?) of their shows that aren't below channel 100. The result is that channels that I know have never had protection on their shows now sudddenly have them such as HDNet, CNN, CNN Headline News (HLN), CNBC (even standard def), Discovery (DSCP).

I just want to confirm that it's Verizon doing this and not a more global thing.

Please try recording these shows and user either kmttg (Tivo desktop should work) to look for the "no symbol" (leftmost column) or press Info and look for "Restrictions: Due to policy set by the copyright holder, this recording: Cannot be transferred to VCR, DVD or any other media device..." I've attached a picture of what I'm talking about from kmttg.

Shows to try:
- any ep of Star Trek: Enterprise on HDNet
- Larry King Live (CNN or CNNI)
- any ep of Mythbusters (DSCP)
- any ep of Attack of the Show (G4)
- Mad Money (CNBC)

Perhaps other FiOS users can add to this list if they're seeing stuff that suddenly got "protection" added.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

You can add HBOHD to the list!


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

I think Frontier is setting this, and VZ is simply following their orders.


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

Here in New York on FiOS i believe all are CCI 0x00 (Copy Freely) except PPV and premium channels like HBO, Cinemax, etc... i've had no trouble transferring any regular package channels via iTivo (TivoToGo)


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

csm10495 said:


> Here in New York on FiOS i believe all are CCI 0x00 (Copy Freely) except PPV and premium channels like HBO, Cinemax, etc... i've had no trouble transferring any regular package channels via iTivo (TivoToGo)


I understand... everything was not protected in any way (I had no premium channels) for me on FiOS in WA state. Then, after that damned outage on 6/7, that's when the protection seemed to start showing up. See http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=450307.

I'm still at work and won't be able to check if things are back to normal (no protection) until much later tonight.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

I'll add Mad Money on CNBC (standard def) that was recorded 6/10/10 3 pm and 8 pm Pacific. It got copy protection.

It looks like Ultimate Factories on SPEEDHD recorded 6/10/10 10 pm Pacific *didn't *get copy protection though.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

rifleman69 said:


> I think Frontier is setting this, and VZ is simply following their orders.


I thought so too at first, but after talking to VZ and reading various posts here and on other forums I don't think so anymore, for several reasons (and at the risk of repeating myself from another post).

- Too random. Hundreds of channels that could/would be copy protected aren't, including premium channels (all of Showtime's channels for instance). 
- Channels like CNN that have never had copy protection by any provider are now copy protected?
- No copy protection at all in states where Frontier is also taking over
- Coincidence? The channels that are now copy protected just so happen to be the same channels that were lost in a multi-state outage that VZ suffered a few days ago.

Even if the other things made sense some how, that last one is _way_ to coincidental in my book.

To me it appears to be collateral damage (read: huge blunder) by VZ's network folks that tried to fix the recent outage. I just hope they get it resolved before Frontier takes the reins.


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## [NG]Owner (Dec 19, 2006)

Welcome to our world ... the world of Time Warner Cable.

Everything except broadcast local is copy protected.

[NG]Owner


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

FiOS (NY area) no issues.

I'm not going to take the time to search. The consensus is FiOS doen't typically "pair" cable cards to the equipment. My memory is at least one credible poster said a cable cards can't handle CCI flagged shows unless the card is paired.

I guess the issues could be linked. FiOS may have tried to pair cards (future Frontier customers) and had issues.Maybe people in the Frontier area should see if there cards are now paired.


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## DennisTCook (Dec 11, 2008)

I noticed that some programs (e.g. Larry King Live) are now copy protected. Not sure when this started - it was sometime in the last week or two. So it's not Verizon doing this, unless Comcast and Verizon both happened to start doing this at the same time.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

Id have a hard time justifying staying with TivoHD if Fios started using CP.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

DennisTCook said:


> I noticed that some programs (e.g. Larry King Live) are now copy protected. Not sure when this started - it was sometime in the last week or two. So it's not Verizon doing this, unless Comcast and Verizon both happened to start doing this at the same time.


So you're on Comcast?


lew said:


> FiOS (NY area) no issues.
> 
> I'm not going to take the time to search. The consensus is FiOS doen't typically "pair" cable cards to the equipment. My memory is at least one credible poster said a cable cards can't handle CCI flagged shows unless the card is paired.
> 
> I guess the issues could be linked. FiOS may have tried to pair cards (future Frontier customers) and had issues.Maybe people in the Frontier area should see if there cards are now paired.


How can I tell if my card is paired? So, when you state "no issues", have you tried recording the shows I listed? The channels CP is applied to doesn't seem uniform. Some channels are getting it and some aren't.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

DennisTCook said:


> I noticed that some programs (e.g. Larry King Live) are now copy protected.


In our case all of the programs are copy protected on the various channels that suddenly changed. In other words everything on CNN has CP, not just Larry King, etc. Are you saying that some programs are CP and some aren't on the same channel (CNN for instance)?


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

In my case, I know for a fact that ESPNU still came in normally with the cablecard outage...I'll try to record something from that tonight and see if I can transfer that. My guess is yes.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

lew said:


> FiOS (NY area) no issues.
> 
> I'm not going to take the time to search. The consensus is FiOS doen't typically "pair" cable cards to the equipment. My memory is at least one credible poster said a cable cards can't handle CCI flagged shows unless the card is paired.
> 
> I guess the issues could be linked. FiOS may have tried to pair cards (future Frontier customers) and had issues.Maybe people in the Frontier area should see if there cards are now paired.


Brilliant Lew! I don't know why I didn't think of that. I almost incurred a serious injury when I slapped myself in the forehead! Since VZ has never paired cable cards I hadn't thought about that, but that's a good point.

At the risk of making matters worse I decided to experiment. Previously with VZ FIOS you could move cable cards between equipment (TiVo, TV, etc.) w/o any issues since they weren't paired. So I pulled one of the two Moto M cards out of my Series3 and slipped it into our Premiere XL to see what will happen. I'll report back as soon as I have some results.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

That could be it...but the reason may be that they are NOT paired YET but they added a flag. If they are NOT paired, then all you can view is a flag of 000.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

Keep us in the loop Rich.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Turns out that was it...our cable cards are now paired. Ugh. I completed my S3 to Premiere cable card swap experiment and Guess what? No go! TiVo was tuned to 600 (CNN HD) and there was the black screen and the "This channel is not authorized. Contact your cable provider for more information" message. That was the case with every channel that is copy protected. (Other channels worked fine.) BTW I did make matters worse because of course when I put the cards back in their respective places they no longer worked (lost their pairing) so I had to call VZ to reinitialize all of our CC's. Ugh. I took one for the team. You can thank me later. 

BTW, the VZ CSR I spoke with was very knowledgeable about TiVo, copy flags, etc. He didn't know the back story but said he'd gotten more calls from TiVo owners the past two days than in the previous four years! When I explained what happened...at least my take on it he got it right away. He said he understood the copy protection but that we should certainly be able to use MRV. That wasn't his area and he really didn't know who to talk to about something like that, so we're still in the dark in that respect.

Now I'm pretty certain that the outage and new copy protection isn't a coincidence. I can now see a scenario where Frontier wanted it that way prior to their takeover and VZ tried to put it into place...and it blew up in their face...temporarily knocking out hundreds of channels in the process. Since VZ has never dealt with CP (remember they've only been in the video delivery biz a couple of years) I'm betting they know very little about CCI, copy once, none, etc. My understanding is that Frontier is a novice in this area as well...the blind leading the blind.

So that still leaves some programming that would normally use CP like Showtime in the clear, while others like CNN that would not normally have CP flagged. But if as csm10495 noted, CNN on Comcast now has CP so maybe it's not a VZ mistake, but a change in the paradigm. If so that likely means that this is not over and that VZ and/or Frontier will add CP to everything else that was missed this first time around. What a potential nightmare!

So if nothing changes and we can no longer MRV between TiVo's or transfer programs to our computers in the future I am absolutely done with FIOS.  Hopefully someone will get it right because I do like the PQ as well as their broadband speed, etc.

Now I'm off to call TiVo. I think we all have better things to do than clean up this mess...but somebody's gotta do it right? As MPSAN suggested, I think we all need to call TiVo and complain...squeaky wheel and all.

*TiVo Customer Support: 877-367-8486*

*EDIT*: The TiVo CSR (very nice gentleman BTW) immediately understood what I told him about the CC pairing and the zero copy flags preventing MRV. He gave me a reference number and said he would escalate it to tech support. I've no idea how long it will take them to contact VZ and see what's going on but I'd guess that if they get a lot of calls about the same thing it will move to an upper portion of their to-do list.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

Well, what would Comcast do? We CAN keep FIOS phone and Internet and just get Comcast cableTV, but do they have flags on everything? We could resolve this by upgrading all our units to 1-2TB and recording everything on every unit, but who wants to do that?


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

MPSAN said:


> Well, what would Comcast do? We CAN keep FIOS phone and Internet and just get Comcast cableTV, but do they have flags on everything? We could resolve this by upgrading all our units to 1-2TB and recording everything on every unit, but who wants to do that?


When I had it about a year or so ago Comcast had 1x copy flags on all of the premium content like HBO, Showtime, etc. But not on anything else. That meant I could record HBO on one TiVo and transfer it to the other one...which is how it s/b. But with this zero copy nonsense (no MRV) from VZ, that's a game changer. I have to believe it's a mistake, but who knows?

The other big downside (and growing) is that Comcast is compressing their HD signals more and more to squeeze more HD content into a finite pipe. It's the same thing the satellite providers were doing (only satellite is even worse). The result is crappy HD PQ. The difference between Comcast and FIOS PQ on some channels was stunning. That huge pipe was one of the key reasons I jumped ship to FIOS. I do NOT want to go back to Comcast. I'd rather go OTA (as close to perfect HD PQ as possible) than go backwards. It would be a PIA but worth it IMHO.

I'd just as soon not have to duplicate recordings...that basically defeats one of the prime features of having multiple TiVo's (and MRV).

Well...TiVo has my complaint and so does VZ. This will be an interesting ride...buckle up!


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

I'll just sell my TiVo's and head back to DirecTV if this is how it's going to be...I'm not going to Comcast period.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

Well, when I did have Comcast, and their DVR, I decided that when I went to FIOS I would buy the TIVOHD's. MRV was a big plus, but to be sure the way the TIVO worked sure was better than the Comcast stuff. Also, with TIVO you could increase the Recording time to 157+ hours of HD. The Cable Co boxes could not do MRV either (at the time) so I still like the TIVO and FIOS PQ, but I am still not sure that this is what Verizon wanted to do!


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

Or you could go for a Moxi and not have to worry about the CCI flag when streaming between DVRS. No copy down to PC however.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

killzone said:


> Or you could go for a Moxi and not have to worry about the CCI flag when streaming between DVRS. No copy down to PC however.


No thank you!


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

rifleman69 said:


> No thank you!


You really think satellite is a better option? In addition to being more expensive than FIOS the picture quality is nowhere near as good.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

killzone said:


> You really think satellite is a better option? In addition to being more expensive than FIOS the picture quality is nowhere near as good.


Satellite will be a better option if Frontier or Verizon don't remove these copy protections...first step before degradation of service. Considering Frontier has a different agenda than Verizon, AND this is their first major entry into running a tv serice, you bet satellite would be better. But my no thank you was aimed at the Moxi.

And no, DirecTV is not more expensive, especially if you have boxes already just waiting to be reactivated.


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## sdpinpdx (Jun 13, 2010)

[NG]Owner;7984281 said:


> Welcome to our world ... the world of Time Warner Cable.
> 
> Everything except broadcast local is copy protected.
> 
> [NG]Owner


There are exceptions. I have a recording from VH1 this morning and some things from SCIHD and WGNHD that are not protected.


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## Snapperou812 (Sep 11, 2010)

Anything I record using the cisco cable card in my TIVO HD (everything) I cannot touch due to Copyright restrictions.

This is on Cox's FAQ page:
_I was unable to create a DVD copy of a program that I watched on my Digital Cable Ready TV. What happened?
As a part of the regulations for CableCARD technology, the FCC has mandated Copy Protection of digital content. This Copy Protection mandate allows programmers to determine which programming can be copied digitally by the end consumer. If you are unable to make a digital copy of a program that you watched on your Digital Cable Ready TV, the programmer has applied a copy protection directive to that particular content. Copy protection directives may be copy never, copy once, no more copies, or copy freely._

So this means for us is the content guys turned on the copy protection flag for everything if it's not broadcasted.

This just stopped me even further from wanting to go to HD!!
I'm going to pull the cable card out of my TIVO and run analog until they shut it off.


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