# Ya know what bothers me?



## 230 (Nov 3, 1999)

I have 2 HR 10-250's and will hang on to them as long as possible.

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but it bothers me when you have 1 scheduled recording and it is recording a suggestion on the other tuner, it will not change channels. You have to manually stop the suggested recording. I would think it would change the channel and cancel the suggestion.

Just a thought.

EJ


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## thumperxr69 (Mar 22, 2004)

EJ said:


> I have 2 HR 10-250's and will hang on to them as long as possible.
> 
> I'm sure this has been brought up before, but it bothers me when you have 1 scheduled recording and it is recording a suggestion on the other tuner, it will not change channels. You have to manually stop the suggested recording. I would think it would change the channel and cancel the suggestion.
> 
> ...


Turn off suggestions...I have had mine off since day one.

T


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## Cajunclicker (Dec 31, 2003)

+1


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

+2


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

EJ said:


> I have 2 HR 10-250's and will hang on to them as long as possible...


Ditto. (and 3 here, actually)



EJ said:


> ...it bothers me when you have 1 scheduled recording and it is recording a suggestion on the other tuner, it will not change channels. You have to manually stop the suggested recording. I would think it would change the channel and cancel the suggestion.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> EJ


And a good thought worthy of discussion. I think Tivo gives you the option to cancel or not to cancel, as a courtesy. A simple channel change might not be recommended if Tivo has indeed chosen a program (suggestion) that fits your profile.

If Tivo is anything, it is not arrogant. Unlike other PVRs, it does not assume that certain hard-wired choices should not have such options. It lets you decide for yourself. I consider that a good thing.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> And a good thought worthy of discussion. I think Tivo gives you the option to cancel or not to cancel, as a courtesy. A simple channel change might not be recommended if Tivo has indeed chosen a program (suggestion) that fits your profile.


No, no...

1. If you happen to be on a tuner that's recording a suggestion when you attempt to change the channel, it changes, with no prompt. There's never a prompt to not cancel a suggestion.

2. If you happen to be on a tuner with a scheduled recording, with a suggestion recording on the other, it prompts you to cancel _the scheduled_ recording.

3. But, if you have one scheduled recording, and one tuner with no recording, then regardless of which tuner you're on, it switches to the tuner with no recording and changes the channel.

So, for consistency, this is also what it should do in situation 2.


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## Scarlett128 (Jan 30, 2005)

thumperxr69 said:


> Turn off suggestions...I have had mine off since day one.
> 
> T


How do you turn them off? I can't find that information anywhere in the manual.

Many thanks!

Scarlett

Never mind! I figured it out. But thanks anyway. 

Scarlett


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> No, no...
> 
> 1. If you happen to be on a tuner that's recording a suggestion when you attempt to change the channel, it changes, with no prompt. There's never a prompt to not cancel a suggestion.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes.

Much of what you say is true, but the scenario in question is scenario 2, which is what the discussion had been limited to. If you are on the channel recording the suggestion and attempt to change channels, it always asks you, at least it always does on my 3 HR10s running 3.1.

Whether it should prompt you or not is up to opinion, but the opinion of the Tivo programming team is obviously to prompt when no tuner is open, and not prompt when one is open.

Now, if you are on the channel with the scheduled recording, a case can be made that it should not prompt with an option to cancel the scheduled recording, but should instead prompt with an option to cancel the suggestion, which is currently hidden. In a perfect world I would agree with that concept. But while Tivo is close to perfect, most Tivo users are far from it.

People typically don't pay much attention to detail, and casual users might be thrown by this and think they are aborting the visible recording when they are actually aborting the hidden one. Understanding the limitations of users who are tired, drunk, sleepy, distracted, mildly "challenged", or otherwise not paying strict attention, if I had a vote as a member of the software design team, I would opt to only allow aborting of the visible recording, too. While the minority of braniacs on this forum might be able to cope easily with the complexity of aborting a recording hidden on the other tuner, we are our brothers' keepers, after all, and Tivo has an ergonomic responsibility to make their lives easier, too.

Tivo was always meant primarily as a smart assistant for the casual user, even if power users have a love affair with it. To cater only to the power user would be arrogantly elitist. My mother's Toyota is arrogantly elitist (won't let me open a door until I shut off the engine, for instance), but thankfully, Tivo isn't.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> If you are on the channel recording the suggestion and attempt to change channels, it always asks you, at least it always does on my 3 HR10s running 3.1.


No, it doesn't. Pay closer attention the next time it comes up.



> _Whether it should prompt you or not is up to opinion, but the opinion of the Tivo programming team is obviously to prompt when no tuner is open, and not prompt when one is open._


No, that's not how it works. Again: It never prompts when changing away from a suggestion.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> My mother's Toyota is arrogantly elitist (won't let me open a door until I shut off the engine, for instance), but thankfully, Tivo isn't.


What!

Wow! That is dangerous. You may need to get out quickly in an accident. Who thought up that stupidity?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> People typically don't pay much attention to detail, and casual users might be thrown by this and think they are aborting the visible recording when they are actually aborting the hidden one. Understanding the limitations of users who are tired, drunk, sleepy, distracted, mildly "challenged", or otherwise not paying strict attention, if I had a vote as a member of the software design team, I would opt to only allow aborting of the visible recording, too.


I always love it when poor software implementation is blamed on the user.

I suppose 'user stupidity' is also the reason why Tivo will not give you the option of deciding which program you want to cancel when 2 shows are scheduled and there is a conflict with a third. And don't give me the 'That is what Season Pass priority is for' excuse. Because *my* priority may have changed since the SP was made. And it also happens if you just select programs from the guide and thus are not on the priority list, so that excuse is null and void.


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

If everything ALWAYS made sense I would never come here


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

Mark Lopez said:


> I always love it when poor software implementation is blamed on the user.
> 
> I suppose 'user stupidity' is also the reason why Tivo will not give you the option of deciding which program you want to cancel when 2 shows are scheduled and there is a conflict with a third. And don't give me the 'That is what Season Pass priority is for' excuse. Because *my* priority may have changed since the SP was made. And it also happens if you just select programs from the guide and thus are not on the priority list, so that excuse is null and void.


Yep. A major flaw with most software now-a-days is that they try to be simple and code in default behaviors as opposed to giving users the choice as to what they want to do. Some guys in marketing (and, worse, guys on the software team) sit around and come up with ideas on how they THINK you SHOULD use the software and then implement this mandatory behavior.

Good software design should give users choices. I understand the need to keep things simple to sell lots of units to Jack and Jill Sixpack, but there is any easy way around the need to provide both ease of use and choice. Make the "ease of use" the default and then give the choice to the user to enter an "advanced mode" that gives a person choice. Of course, this is more coding on the front end and harder to support from a call center with $8.50 / hr CSRs. Still, no piece of software can be called "good" unless it beahves the way the maximum number of people would like it to behave.

The worst offender of this type of software is Apple, and when the rumors of Apple and Tivo joining forces were circulating I had such mixed feelings. Yes, Apple could make Tivo survive long term and would certainly bring some advancements to the platform, but at the same time Apple would stupify the UI so much that unless you used your Tivo exactly the way Steve Jobs felt you should use your Tivo then you would be screwed. And the worst is when you get an a discussion with an AppleTard about how there are shortcomings in Apple products and they just scream at you that it is your fault because you aren't using the software the way Apple intended for you to use it. Grrrrr.

The smugness of software developers and marketing folks who think they know best about how a person should use software drives me crazy.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

SpankyInChicago said:


> ...The smugness of software developers and marketing folks who think they know best about how a person should use software drives me crazy.


Me too, but ultimately they each still have to make a decision that affects all users. Some (Tivo) employ a significantly greater level of talent, care, and understanding than others (HR20), though.

I was not blaming Tivo or excusing them, just merely trying to explain their rationale and how it fits into the basic ergonomic concept of Tivo as a smart-assistant device, regardless of whether my explanation might have been solicited  . But IMHO, I think the rabid acceptance and fierce loyalty of Tivo owners completely validates that approach. IOW, they got it right, and that's undeniably why people love their products at a level significantly beyond the norm, and why over 85% of us are willing to pay them more than we would for the HR20 (according to the current poll).

That would also tend to explain iPod and the Mac OS, BTW. It's patently obvious from this thread that trying to please everybody all at once is not possible, but back to your point, Tivo and Apple are far less arrogant in their approach to software design than any pretenders you might care to name. And probably comparitively more talented and successful if stability and UI are the goals.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> I always love it when poor software implementation is blamed on the user...


"It's not a bug, it's a feature!" 

Sorry, that is not what I was saying. Sometimes you have to burn the village to win the war. Tradeoffs are a fact of life. Designing a product to be all-encompassing and to not leave the casual user in the dust sometimes is at the expense of the power user, especially if overall good ergonomics is the goal. That is actually GOOD software design, and in no way is that blaming it on the user. On the contrary, that is giving the user, all users, due consideration, which is something all software designers need to learn how to do better. IMHO, Tivo almost always makes the right decision in software design when there are tradeoffs to be made. Almost everyone else seems to almost always get it wrong.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> "It's not a bug, it's a feature!"
> 
> Sorry, that is not what I was saying. Sometimes you have to burn the village to win the war. Tradeoffs are a fact of life. Designing a product to be all-encompassing and to not leave the casual user in the dust sometimes is at the expense of the power user, especially if overall good ergonomics is the goal. That is actually GOOD software design, and in no way is that blaming it on the user. On the contrary, that is giving the user, all users, due consideration, which is something all software designers need to learn how to do better. IMHO, Tivo almost always makes the right decision in software design when there are tradeoffs to be made. Almost everyone else seems to almost always get it wrong.


The problem is you are trying to make a basic option that a 2 year old could understand (i.e. which recording do you want to stop?) sound like it would be too complex for the average user to comprehend. That's not a tradeoff, that's poor design, plain and simple.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> Me too, but ultimately they each still have to make a decision that affects all users. Some (Tivo) employ a significantly greater level of talent, care, and understanding than others (HR20), though.
> 
> I was not blaming Tivo or excusing them, just merely trying to explain their rationale and how it fits into the basic ergonomic concept of Tivo as a smart-assistant device, regardless of whether my explanation might have been solicited  . But IMHO, I think the rabid acceptance and fierce loyalty of Tivo owners completely validates that approach. IOW, they got it right, and that's undeniably why people love their products at a level significantly beyond the norm, and why over 85% of us are willing to pay them more than we would for the HR20 (according to the current poll).
> 
> That would also tend to explain iPod and the Mac OS, BTW. It's patently obvious from this thread that trying to please everybody all at once is not possible, but back to your point, Tivo and Apple are far less arrogant in their approach to software design than any pretenders you might care to name. And probably comparitively more talented and successful if stability and UI are the goals.


Well, we'll have to disagree. And I hate to do that with you, Mr. Shoes, because I always like what you have to say.

I think the Tivo interface is pretty decent, but it could certainly use improvement. Mark's example above is a good one. Overall, I think Tivo does a good job from a UI standpoint, but there software engineering from a systems standpoint sucks.

As far as Apple is concerned. I've been impressed by exactly one Apple device and that is my iPod. It is cleverly elegant.

But most of my experience with Apple products are like the one that I have had with iTunes. iTunes is a pile of garbage. Yes, if you want to do EXACTLY what Mr. Jobs intended you to do with iTunes, it is passable. If you want to do anything that isn't exactly the way Mr. Jobs intended for you to do it, well then you are just out of luck. Raise the point with anyone on this and they response that it is my fault for wanting to use iTunes in a manner inconsistent with how Mr. Jobs intended.

I laugh at the Mac vs. PC commercials like anyone else (assuming I ever see them), but the sad truth of the matter is that the one on the Vista UAC asking you to confirm everything you do is actually something I like about Vista vs. a Max. A Mac has similar dialog boxes that require you to enter a password or do additional authorization prior to performing certain functions, so not sure why they are complaining about Vista doing it. This is good design and I am glad to see it now being included in Vista (MSFT catching up with Apple). But the major shortcoming in the Mac is that there is no way to turn that crap off if you are a power user. In Windows, of course, you can turn it off.

The point is to design software that makes it simple for the simple folks and gives the option of expanding choice for power users. This is what MSFT has always been good at. Any retard can open up Word and make a pretty resume, but an advanced user has as much control over Word as they are able to program using VBA.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> The problem is you are trying to make a basic option that a 2 year old could understand (i.e. which recording do you want to stop?) sound like it would be too complex for the average user to comprehend. That's not a tradeoff, that's poor design, plain and simple.


That's an opinion, plain and simple.

Never underestimate the inability of those who only went to community college. You seem like a smart guy, so you should be able to comprehend that not all users have the ability to immediately grasp what might seem to you to be a simple concept. It's not simple if you can't understand it. My opinion, and apparently Tivo's, is that it's important to cater to those folks. Thankfully, if enough of your opinions run counter to the thinking of the Tivo design team, boy does DTV have a DVR for you.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

SpankyInChicago said:


> ...if you want to do EXACTLY what Mr. Jobs intended you to do with iTunes, it is passable. If you want to do anything that isn't exactly the way Mr. Jobs intended for you to do it, well then you are just out of luck. Raise the point with anyone on this and they response that it is my fault for wanting to use iTunes in a manner inconsistent with how Mr. Jobs intended...


I can get behind much of what you say, Spank.

But this point I find very puzzling and ironic. The Mac OS was what introduced the entire concept of providing choice directly within the programming loop. Before that, command-line thinking allowed exactly no choice. And that has always seemed to be their winning approach, to allow user flexibility in everything. iTunes, while not the simplest program to ever exit Cupertino, seems like a breeze compared to any of the WMP interfaces out there.

I will admit that iTunes is much more frustrating to use on a Windoze PC (my mother's) than on a Mac (such as my 3), but again that can be ironically attributed to the limitations of Windoze, and not to any shortcomings of iTunes. There are also obvious limitations due to DRM that Apple has no control over which complicate iTunes, and Jobs is leading the charge to eliminate DRM.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> That's an opinion, plain and simple.
> 
> Never underestimate the inability of those who only went to community college. You seem like a smart guy, so you should be able to comprehend that not all users have the ability to immediately grasp what might seem to you to be a simple concept. It's not simple if you can't understand it. My opinion, and apparently Tivo's, is that it's important to cater to those folks. Thankfully, if enough of your opinions run counter to the thinking of the Tivo design team, boy does DTV have a DVR for you.


So you actually think that asking the user which recording to stop/cancel is harder to comprehend then just having it choose one without telling you what the other one is and then having the user wonder what happend to their recording?  The Tivo lemming army marches on.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> I can get behind much of what you say, Spank.
> 
> But this point I find very puzzling and ironic. The Mac OS was what introduced the entire concept of providing choice directly within the programming loop. Before that, command-line thinking allowed exactly no choice. And that has always seemed to be their winning approach, to allow user flexibility in everything. iTunes, while not the simplest program to ever exit Cupertino, seems like a breeze compared to any of the WMP interfaces out there.
> 
> I will admit that iTunes is much more frustrating to use on a Windoze PC (my mother's) than on a Mac (such as my 3), but again that can be ironically attributed to the limitations of Windoze, and not to any shortcomings of iTunes. There are also obvious limitations due to DRM that Apple has no control over which complicate iTunes, and Jobs is leading the charge to eliminate DRM.


This is an incredibly broad generalization about the limitations of Windows hampering iTunes. What limitations are in Windows that make iTunes function poorly on Windows? There is no limit on Windows supplying file system event sinks, yet iTunes can't tell when you added new music to your music folder unless you added it through iTunes or unless you tell iTunes to "add directory." There is no limitation in Windows that tells iTunes that when I tell it to "add directory" or "add file" that if I have "copy music to my music folder when adding to the library" on that iTunes should create a duplicate of the file if the file (or directory) being added is already in the music folder. And when I do do an "add directory" to catch new additions to my music folder added outside of iTunes there is no limitation in Windows that forces iTunes to rescan every single song in the directory as opposed to just the newly added music. The fact is that Apple decided you should only get music into your music folder by using iTunes. If you want to use it any other way, well you are just out of luck and must work around various shortcomings in iTunes.

What limitations, exactly, in Windows put these limits on iTunes?

iTunes is not a complicated program. It is the exact opposite. It is overly simplistic and that is the exact problem with it.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

SpankyInChicago said:


> ...What limitations, exactly, in Windows put these limits on iTunes?
> 
> iTunes is not a complicated program. It is the exact opposite. It is overly simplistic and that is the exact problem with it.


Compared to other Apple software programs, iTunes and iPhoto are exceptionally complicated IMHO, but still not as frustrating to use as Windows counterparts, which are not simple to use, but simple in design, and typically much less powerful. Much of the complexity involves the narrow approach to moving files from place to place, which as you say is frustrating. In the case of iTunes this comes from Apple's attempt to create a platform that can't be easily circumvented by the majority of users, in a nod to DRM. For instance, there is no technical reason why it should be difficult to move files from your iPod to your computer, but there are plenty of reasons why from the standpoint of content access control that iTunes is built that way.

"Oversimplistic", I heartilly disagree with. Once you have really delved deep into smart playlisting, you will find not only how complicated it can be, but how powerful and sophisticated. For example, using smart playlisting I can plug my iPod in at night and have it automatically remove from the iPod segments of the Howard Stern show that I already listened to that day (while leaving those I didn't quite get to untouched), and simultaneously add to the iPod all of the new segments of that next morning's show, conveniently labeled and sectioned into 15-minute seamless chunks, at the bottom of the list. All I have to do is plug it in at night, unplug it the next morning, and press play. The smart playlisting manages everything else automatically, once set up properly. This is everything my woefully-inadequate and comparitively-bulky $450 Sirius S-50 promised, yet never delivered.

But we are getting seriously OT here. Rather than discuss the intricacies of iTunes and Windows, let me just say that from my experience a lot of what is easy on iTunes/Mac is difficult in iTunes/Windows, and leave it at that.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> I can get behind much of what you say, Spank.


I actually agree too, to a certain extent. And I'm loathe to disagree with you, TyroneShoes, because so often I find you a voice of reason in the midst of chaos. Still...


> But this point I find very puzzling and ironic. The Mac OS was what introduced the entire concept of providing choice directly within the programming loop. Before that, command-line thinking allowed exactly no choice. And that has always seemed to be their winning approach, to allow user flexibility in everything. iTunes, while not the simplest program to ever exit Cupertino, seems like a breeze compared to any of the WMP interfaces out there.


I disagree. I think what makes Apple interfaces so popular is simplicity and an intuitive metaphor. I don't see how command-line thinking eliminates flexibility -- in fact, some of the most powerful/flexible video tools I use are command-line-based tools. They're cumbersome to use, and I wouldn't let a novice get anywhere near them, but they're very flexible indeed.

iTunes is indeed simple, but I wouldn't call it flexible. Though I own an iPod and use iTunes regularly, there are a few things I wish I had the option of doing. More below.


> I will admit that iTunes is much more frustrating to use on a Windoze PC (my mother's) than on a Mac (such as my 3), but again that can be ironically attributed to the limitations of Windoze, and not to any shortcomings of iTunes. There are also obvious limitations due to DRM that Apple has no control over which complicate iTunes, and Jobs is leading the charge to eliminate DRM.


Not sure what limitations you're referring to, but my two biggest complaints about iTunes would be (in no particular order):
It won't automatically add music files added to directories that I've previously added to iTunes, so if I add new files, I have to manually add them (or re-add the directory, I suppose). Since I have multiple people getting music from a centralized source, I have to keep a "music log" file updated so people know what has been added, and everyone has to remember the last time they updated their libraries so they know what to add.
It really isn't set up to handle media that exists someplace besides the local PC. I have all of our media on a centralized server. The default behavior of iTunes means that if I connect my iPod to my laptop when not at home, everything gets wiped off of my iPod (as the files are no longer available to iTunes). The only alternative seems to be totally disabling automatic sync'ing of media files to my iPod. Ick.
On the other hand, the iPod/iTunes combo is still light years better than anything else I've ever used, and I've used a lot.

And here's something to consider. Most of us technical enthusiasts tend to think that many/most people are like us. They're not. Most people -- even young people -- are not that technical. iTunes is utterly perfect for them, as is the iPod's interface. It's why people keep paying a high premium to get iPods. Having seen alternatives from outfits like Archos, I start to wonder if they've ever let regular people try their products before dumping them on the markets.

Back to Tivo...I think the appeal of the Tivo is, in part, the very intuitive interface. But there are areas that could stand improvement, and this topic (what to do when a scheduled recording is going on one tuner and a suggestion is going on another and the user tries to change channel) is one.

I do agree with Spanky in that in an ideal world most interfaces ought to have an "advanced user" option for those of us who prefer to have all of the options/choices/fiddly bits exposed. But that's rarely done well, I'm sure we can agree.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> So you actually think that asking the user which recording to stop/cancel is harder to comprehend then just having it choose one without telling you what the other one is and then having the user wonder what happend to their recording?  The Tivo lemming army marches on.


Well, no I don't, so I'll appreciate it in the future when you DON'T tell me what I "actually think", if you please. I'll tell YOU what I think instead, since that is a singular privilege.

Your description of the process is also not accurate. Tivo asks you if you want to cancel the recording on the visible tuner or not, period. Yes, or No. Deal, or No Deal. Even the slow adults among us can understand that without ever wondering what happened to the non-visible recording on the other tuner, because that goes on untouched, unless you are smart enough to not cancel the recording, flip to the other tuner, and stop or don't stop that one in lieu of a new channel choice instead. Pretty simple option for a smart guy like you, right? You have to make one extra step so that the guy who rode the short bus doesn't get confused and F up his Jerry Springer ep. Big deal.

But present everyone with three alternatives instead of two, and at least 65% of Tivo owner's butt holes start to pucker, sad as that may seem. And that is completely antithetical to the Tivo philosophy of being a smart assistant to the casual viewer.

Let me give you an example:

In the 80's I was a headend tech and design guy for cable TV. But occasionally, when short-handed, I would have to pitch in and do service calls. Many of those involved interconnection issues between TV/STB/VCR. 95% of the time if it was just two of those three items, such as TV and STB, or TV and VCR, people understood things fairly quickly once you pointed out how things work to them. But the minute they had to contend with all three, TV, STB AND VCR, 95% of them gave me that glassy, 1000-yard stare.

Sadly, the threshold for decision-making for most people is two choices, not three. Tivo understands that, and based their design on that. Kudos to them for having the foresight, and giving both the dumb guy as well as the smart guy an option that doesn't confuse them.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

cheer said:


> ...Still...
> I disagree. I think what makes Apple interfaces so popular is simplicity and an intuitive metaphor. I don't see how command-line thinking eliminates flexibility -- in fact, some of the most powerful/flexible video tools I use are command-line-based tools. They're cumbersome to use, and I wouldn't let a novice get anywhere near them, but they're very flexible indeed.
> 
> iTunes is indeed simple, but I wouldn't call it flexible. Though I own an iPod and use iTunes regularly, there are a few things I wish I had the option of doing.
> ...


My comment about command-line vs. loop programming might have been a mixed metaphor, in that I still think the basic philosophy of each is directly central to Windows thinking vs. Apple thinking, respectively. CL stuff is indeed flexible for those who use it in a professional capacity, but that was exactly why the Mac OS has always been so appealing, is that you don't have to be a professional to use it yet it can still quite often run rings around "professional" Windows-type applications. It is not dumbed-down, it's dumbed-up, by which I mean it gives the best experience no matter what your experience or intelligence level. And that is precisely due to proper ergonomic design, which is rare outside of Apple and Tivo, not that either is perfect.

iTunes becomes significantly more complex with multiple users and multiple libraries, but that's kind of opposite of the theory of "personal" computers. For a single user, most of the problems you face are fixed by preference settings "Keep iTunes Music Folder Organized" and "Copy Files to iTunes Folder when adding songs to library". "Consolidate Library" fixes even more of that, and manual syncing is an option, at least. Plus, there is networked library sharing which precludes the need for all songs to be resident in all libraries. iTunes, like all Apple software, does not limit choices through ergonomic arrogance, but just like Tivo, complexity and power sometimes means inevitable tradeoffs, which is why NO computer or PVR is perfect.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> Your description of the process is also not accurate. Tivo asks you if you want to cancel the recording on the visible tuner or not, period.


I suggest you go back and re-read my posts. I was talking about the conflict when two shows are already scheduled and the only option given is to cancel one and not even list the other one.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> Rather than discuss the intricacies of iTunes and Windows


That is fine, but I think you haven't given a single reason or example as to how iTunes is hampered by Windows, nor did you address my compliants about the management of the music folder. Furthermore I find your "oh, if you only knew the power of smart playlists" stuff a bit condescending. I use smart playlists all the time, but, again, the features of smart playlists are limited. Set me up a smart playlist to break out which account was used to purchase which iTMS song. You can't do it. Why not? The data is right there. As you said, we are way OT here, but I can list many more shortcomings in iTunes. I think your "Windows hampers iTunes" statement is unfounded and simplistic.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

cheer said:


> It won't automatically add music files added to directories that I've previously added to iTunes, so if I add new files, I have to manually add them (or re-add the directory, I suppose). Since I have multiple people getting music from a centralized source, I have to keep a "music log" file updated so people know what has been added, and everyone has to remember the last time they updated their libraries so they know what to add


Ha. Exactly what I was saying. Glad I am not the only one.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> My comment about command-line vs. loop programming might have been a mixed metaphor, in that I still think the basic philosophy of each is directly central to Windows thinking vs. Apple thinking, respectively. CL stuff is indeed flexible for those who use it in a professional capacity, but that was exactly why the Mac OS has always been so appealing, is that you don't have to be a professional to use it yet it can still quite often run rings around "professional" Windows-type applications. It is not dumbed-down, it's dumbed-up, by which I mean it gives the best experience no matter what your experience or intelligence level. And that is precisely due to proper ergonomic design, which is rare outside of Apple and Tivo, not that either is perfect.


I agree that Apple, like Tivo, has done amazing things with intuitive, ergonomic design, but it is axiomatic that if there are fewer choices available, then there is less flexibility.

You can argue that making some choices available to most folk causes more harm than good. You can argue that it's possible to make more sensible choices for the end user via well-crafted algorithms and UI design. But you cannot argue that removing choices adds overall flexibility.

Thing is, that's fine for most people. Most people really don't want all of the knobs. Way back in the day, only enthusiasts had graphic equalizers and reel-to-reel decks on their stereo racks, because most people were fine with just treble/bass and normal 120μs bias cassette. 

For items about which I am an enthusiast, I want all the knobs. This is a combination of my understanding of all of the underlying aspects of whatever we're talking about and a touch of hubris (I can adjust this better than any preset).

For anyone who isn't an enthusiast, the knobs are a waste and are more likely to hose things up. If smart developers can craft algorithms that make the best choices in most cases, so much the better.


> iTunes becomes significantly more complex with multiple users and multiple libraries, but that's kind of opposite of the theory of "personal" computers. For a single user, most of the problems you face are fixed by preference settings "Keep iTunes Music Folder Organized" and "Copy Files to iTunes Folder when adding songs to library". "Consolidate Library" fixes even more of that,


No, that doesn't fix anything of the sort. I have all my music on a central network share. That's where I want it to stay. Copying all of the music to my laptop's iTunes folder is exactly what I don't want. Having iTunes re-organize my music files is also what I don't want. Non-iTunes-enabled devices access this music (Tivos, hacked Xboxen, etc.) and I have it organized to make this easy.

iTunes simply won't do what I want it to do. There's no real option, aside from...


> and manual syncing is an option, at least.


Right, but it's an all-or-nothing proposition. Now I have to manually sync over every new file, which I don't want either. What I actually want is for iTunes to autosync ADDS but not deletes. Seems simple, but isn't doable so far as I can tell.


> Plus, there is networked library sharing which precludes the need for all songs to be resident in all libraries. iTunes, like all Apple software, does not limit choices through ergonomic arrogance, but just like Tivo, complexity and power sometimes means inevitable tradeoffs, which is why NO computer or PVR is perfect.


Well I think you could ask twenty people what ergonomic arrogance is and get twenty different answers. To a power user, anything that eliminates choice could be construed as ergonomically arrogant, even if realistically the choice was worthless. I do agree about your last statement though, and it reminds me of something a really smart Tivo enthusiast (not me, obviously) said: "All PVRs are half-assed; Tivos are just less half-assed than most."


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

No direct access to CC on/off. I'm not hearing-impaired, but sometimes someone says something unitelligible that I'd like to understand. For those that are hearing-impaired, like a friend of mine, I find it unconscionable that there is no simple way to just press a button, or combination of buttons, on the remote to turn them on and off to a preset CC preference that could logically be buried under the video menu.

The other thing I'd like to see is an option to delete a recording you've just canceled, at the same time you cancel it. A "cancel only", or "cancel and delete" option. I sometimes like to cancel a standing TNT L&O rerun we've got scheduled on one tuner to enable live TV, and it's a pain to have to go to the Now Playing list afterwards to cancel the partial recording that remains.

/steve


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

sluciani said:


> No direct access to CC on/off. I'm not hearing-impaired, but sometimes someone says something unitelligible that I'd like to understand. For those that are hearing-impaired, like a friend of mine, I find it unconscionable that there is no simple way to just press a button, or combination of buttons, on the remote to turn them on and off to a preset CC preference that could logically be buried under the video menu.


Agreed -- and more products have missed this boat too. Turning it on from my TV is an arduous process as well. Absolutely should be one button toggle, and for that matter, you ought to be able to tie it to mute as well (so that mute can automatically enable CC). For that matter, the devices should also automatically figure out whether analog or digital CC is required, based on whatever you're tuned to.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

cheer said:


> sluciani said:
> 
> 
> > No direct access to CC on/off. I'm not hearing-impaired, but sometimes someone says something unitelligible that I'd like to understand. For those that are hearing-impaired, like a friend of mine, I find it unconscionable that there is no simple way to just press a button, or combination of buttons, on the remote to turn them on and off to a preset CC preference that could logically be buried under the video menu.
> ...


Take heart, for TiVo has addressed this** in the S3 interface, and if we're extremely lucky, maybe we'll get a patch to the 6.x versions that will add this functionality for us. (We'd have to be really, really, really lucky!)

**In the S3, a CC indicator now appears as one of the icons in the INFO bar and can be used to quickly jump to the CC menu. It's not perfect, but it's easier than what we have now!


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

cheer said:


> I agree that Apple, like Tivo, has done amazing things with intuitive, ergonomic design, but it is axiomatic that if there are fewer choices available, then there is less flexibility.
> 
> You can argue that making some choices available to most folk causes more harm than good. You can argue that it's possible to make more sensible choices for the end user via well-crafted algorithms and UI design. But you cannot argue that removing choices adds overall flexibility...


I agree, and that was not my argument. I did say that Tivo was in general, more flexible than the wanna-bes. I did say that Tivo limits choices to two, in situations that could use three by some fraction of opinions. Both are true statements, and neither invalidates the other.

The argument I was making is that Tivo overall does a better job of making such decisions, and the end result is a better UI that also just happens to be more flexible than most.

While nothing exists in a vacuum, as an avowed power user let me give you the other side of the coin. The DISH 721, bless its little unstable file-wiping heart, had just such a plan. When both tuners were busy, it presented you with all three choices, just like some here on this thread wish that Tivo would do. I loved it, and I am a little irked that Tivo doesn't do that for me the same way that the 721 did. For my individual situation, for that single aspect, the DISH 721 was then a better choice for me, and it did that singular little job better than Tivo does. But it you look at the big picture and adhere to the Tivo philosophy, Tivo's way of limiting the choices to two makes more sense for the majority of users. I can live with that, even if some can't.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> I suggest you go back and re-read my posts...


Why don't you put every post you ever made on a CD and FedEx it to me? Or maybe you can start a blog on your own website with links, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who's just itching to re-read them. Then you can simply do nothing but wait until you hear back from me. I have no life, so I've got plenty of time pencilled in for reading your posts.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> Why don't you put every post you ever made on a CD and FedEx it to me? Or maybe you can start a blog on your own website with links, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who's just itching to re-read them. Then you can simply do nothing but wait until you hear back from me. I have no life, so I've got plenty of time pencilled in for reading your posts.


Or, you could just follow the advice Mark offers up right underneath his name there, in his user title...


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Fofer said:


> Or, you could just follow the advice Mark offers up right underneath his name there, in his user title...


That's what it's there for. 



TyroneShoes said:


> Why don't you put every post you ever made on a CD and FedEx it to me? Or maybe you can start a blog on your own website with links, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who's just itching to re-read them. Then you can simply do nothing but wait until you hear back from me.


Sorry, I didn't know it would be so difficult to actually re-read the post where I was talking about a different issue than the one you seem to be fixated on. Oh well...



TyroneShoes said:


> I have no life,.....


Well, since you want to live in a two choice world, I can see why.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Take heart, for TiVo has addressed this** in the S3 interface, and if we're extremely lucky, maybe we'll get a patch to the 6.x versions that will add this functionality for us. (We'd have to be really, really, really lucky!)
> 
> **In the S3, a CC indicator now appears as one of the icons in the INFO bar and can be used to quickly jump to the CC menu. It's not perfect, but it's easier than what we have now!


Better, but still kludgy, if that's a word  CC's should be even more easily accesible, especially to older people who are more likely to be hearing-impaired and potentially technically challenged. TIvo should have had a CC button on the HD Tivo remote from day one, IMHO. I understand why it wasn't on the SD Tivo remote... it was the TV manufacturs job to take care of CCs with SD technology. But I'm kind of surprised that such a user-friendly company missed this option when designing the HD model. Apparently D* missed it too, on the HR-20 remote, if I'm not mistaken. What are these guys thinking? Did they ever hear of user focus groups, as a part of the user interface design process? Or even bother to read these forums? The subject has been discussed ad nauseum. /steve


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Another UI improvement that I am amazed hasn't been done yet...

Conflicts should be far less passive. If a conflict comes up, I shouldn't have to go looking to find out. I should be alerted. The Tivo message system is perfect for this -- I should get alerts both (A) when a conflict comes up but is successfully managed by rescheduling, and (B) when a conflict comes up that cannot be autofixed. (B) in particular should be in big, bold, red, flashing letters. Or something. The core function of a Tivo is that it needs to record my stuff, and if for some reason it's not going to record something, I want to know about it right away.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

cheer said:


> Another UI improvement that I am amazed hasn't been done yet...
> 
> Conflicts should be far less passive. If a conflict comes up, I shouldn't have to go looking to find out. I should be alerted. The Tivo message system is perfect for this -- I should get alerts both (A) when a conflict comes up but is successfully managed by rescheduling, and (B) when a conflict comes up that cannot be autofixed. (B) in particular should be in big, bold, red, flashing letters. Or something. The core function of a Tivo is that it needs to record my stuff, and if for some reason it's not going to record something, I want to know about it right away.


I agree. A message on TiVo, with an option on TiVo.com to get an email about it too, would be very much appreciated. As it stands now you only know about these conflicts on SP creation. But what about when a show moves around? I'd like TiVo (both the box and the service) to give me options for more communication, so I know it always has my back. Report in like an assistant would. Yeah, it's nice to see "WHY" a recording didn't happen last night (in the recording histtory) but it'd have been better to be alerted/consulted ahead of time so I could potentially make the decision that would prevent it from being missed in the first place.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Exactly. Mind you, some of this can be done more or less with hacks, but IMO it's the sort of thing that naturally ought to occur to the UI folks.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

cheer said:


> Mind you, some of this can be done more or less with hacks


More or less, sure, but I've got an S3 now and the hack scene isn't nearly as active. (Yet?)


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Fofer said:


> More or less, sure, but I've got an S3 now and the hack scene isn't nearly as active. (Yet?)


Many/most current hacks will work on the S3, but of course like newer S2 units you need a PROM mod.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

cheer said:


> Many/most current hacks will work on the S3, but of course like newer S2 units you need a PROM mod.


yeah, I get that, and after dropping serious coin on this unit *and* sticking a 750 gigger in here, I'm not too keen on the PROM mod just yet. TiVoWeb (and endpadplus) are the two things I miss most... but they're not enough for me to roll up my sleeves and rock the boat over here. I'm gonna sit tight and see what TiVo gives us "officially."


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