# OTA not working out - best option for local channels?



## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

I recently purchased a premiere and installed an antenna on my roof. I spent lots of time aiming and tweaking the antenna, and actually tried 3 different models. My OTA signal has been reasonably solid (a few dropouts here and there) until a few days ago, when the typical Puget Sound rainy season began, and then the signal went to pot.

So I disconnected the antenna and connected my Premiere to my Comcast cable. I was surprised to see all the channels, but then disappointed to learn that Tivo can't map them without a cablecard (which would mean more $$ to Comcast, and more $$ to Tivo also - since I won't qualify for the $9.99 antenna promotion).

Anyway, I only need local channels (ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox). What's the cheapest way for me to get a cablecard to do that? I've read that the card doesn't need to be paired to receive unencrypted content, so maybe I don't need to go through Comcast to get one? Any other way to tell Tivo where these four channels are?

Other suggestions?


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

Maybe you got water in one of your connections to your outside antenna? I have heard of water (rain or snow) affecting satellite. Or snow on a roof affecting a antenna in an attic, but haven't heard of rain or snow affecting digital antenna TV signals from an outside antenna. Mine isn't affected.


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## 9300170 (Feb 21, 2003)

so, you're asking about the best way to commit a crime?


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

9300170 said:


> so, you're asking about the best way to commit a crime?


I reread my post several times, and could find those words in there anywhere. So I'm not sure what you're talking about.


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

replaytv said:


> Maybe you got water in one of your connections to your outside antenna?


That's a good point. I did notice that one of my other TV's was working great, while the Tivo was full of dropouts. I just figured the tuner in the Tivo was more sensitive to multipath (caused by rain), but maybe there was water in the splitter.

Now that I know all the channels I want are on cable anyway, I think I'll run a new straight shot (no splitters) from the antenna to the Tivo, and let all the other TV's get their signal from cable.

Good suggestion.


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

RDK said:


> I think I'll run a new straight shot (no splitters) from the antenna to the Tivo, and let all the other TV's get their signal from cable.


Well, we had a break in the rain this morning, so I ran a new cable. Rain started up soon after (if you're not familiar with Pacific Northwest rain, it often rains constantly for days on end - not the gully washer rainstorms that occur elsewhere in the country, but constant water in the air (and on the trees, etc.).

Anyway, no luck in improving the reception. Plus, some channels are better than others, which makes me think the rain in the air (or on the trees) is the culprit.

I think I'll play around with the antenna some more this weekend (maybe tilt it upwards), but if that doesn't work, I'll be looking for a cablecard.

I've read in some threads that Comcast will give/rent you a cablecard just to decode local channels (which is all I need), without requiring you to sign up for a cable TV package. Anyone have experience with that, and is there any magic words I need to tell the service agent?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

They're not going to give you a card without paying for limited basic, man.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

RDK said:


> Well, we had a break in the rain this morning, so I ran a new cable. Rain started up soon after (if you're not familiar with Pacific Northwest rain, it often rains constantly for days on end - not the gully washer rainstorms that occur elsewhere in the country, but constant water in the air (and on the trees, etc.).
> 
> Anyway, no luck in improving the reception. Plus, some channels are better than others, which makes me think the rain in the air (or on the trees) is the culprit.
> 
> ...


So it sounds like you are saying you aren't currently subscribing to any cable service from Comcast right now. Is that correct? If so, they're not going to give/rent you a cable card since you aren't using their service. Comcast has no obligation to provide even the local channels to you without a subscription.

Have you checked your address at TV Fool.com ? That's the best way to determine what's going on with your antenna setup and recommend how best to proceed. Due to all our hills and trees, reception in the Puget Sound area can be tricky.

This isn't meant to scare you, but I thought I read in the fine print somewhere that the $10/month Off-The-Air Tivo plan is forfeit as soon as you connect anything to the cable TV input on the Tivo. Hopefully that wouldn't turn out to be the case for you, but only Tivo will know for sure. If you were planning to get basic cable (local channels for $15 a month or whatever), be aware that you might be getting hit doubly since your Tivo rate would go up to $20/month. Of course if you bought a lifetime plan this is all a moot point. In any case, it really would benefit you to get the antenna figured out. There are numerous sub channels available in this area that you wouldn't get through cable, and we've found them very worthwhile.


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

I've used TV Fool and other sites extensively to check for best aiming directions, and have spent several hours tweaking the antenna (as well as trying other brands and models of antennas). I get a few channels really strong (like 13/FOX, which is rebroadcast locally), but the stations from Queen Anne in Seattle are marginal at best, and unviewable at worst.

I think you're right about my Tivo rate going up to $20 when I install the cable card - I've read that elsewhere. But here's the thing -- I found out today that I can get TV+internet for the same price as internet only. So I went ahead and switched. In fact, for the next 6 months, I got a promotional price for $20 less than I'm paying now.

I plan to leave the antenna installed - you're right, there are some other channels that I might as well take advantage of.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

RDK said:


> I've used TV Fool and other sites extensively to check for best aiming directions, and have spent several hours tweaking the antenna (as well as trying other brands and models of antennas). I get a few channels really strong (like 13/FOX, which is rebroadcast locally), but the stations from Queen Anne in Seattle are marginal at best, and unviewable at worst.
> 
> I think you're right about my Tivo rate going up to $20 when I install the cable card - I've read that elsewhere. But here's the thing -- I found out today that I can get TV+internet for the same price as internet only. So I went ahead and switched. In fact, for the next 6 months, I got a promotional price for $20 less than I'm paying now.
> 
> I plan to leave the antenna installed - you're right, there are some other channels that I might as well take advantage of.


Sounds like a pretty good deal then. Comcast in our neighborhood could only give us a deal that's about $5 more expensive than we pay right now - and that's for TV and internet only (no phone) and no DVR. We pay $54 a month for phone and internet and have lifetime on our Tivo.

You must be on the wrong side of a hill to pick up the Queen Anne towers, bummer. FOX is the only one we don't get because for one, there's a hill directly in the line of sight between us and the tower (within a few hundred feet of us), and secondly, it's about 90 degrees off the aim for Seattle at our location. Assuming the hill wasn't there we could get it with a rotator, but that's not really an option with a DVR. So we're happy that FOX is rebroadcast on a subchannel of 25 (22 virtual). Even though it's 480P (so they say), it is 16:9 format and the picture quality is very good.


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

aaroncgi said:


> Sounds like a pretty good deal then. Comcast in our neighborhood could only give us a deal that's about $5 more expensive than we pay right now - and that's for TV and internet only (no phone) and no DVR. We pay $54 a month for phone and internet and have lifetime on our Tivo.


I don't use Comcast for phone anymore -- we just use our cell phones.

The plan I just went to is called "Blast Extra". Includes basic cable (with local HD channels) and internet. $40 for first six months (although I had to press for that, since I'm not a new customer) and then price will go up to $55 (I pay $58 now for internet only). Advertised price for this package (for existing customers) is $70.


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

RDK said:


> I don't use Comcast for phone anymore -- we just use our cell phones.
> 
> The plan I just went to is called "Blast Extra". Includes basic cable (with local HD channels) and internet. $40 for first six months (although I had to press for that, since I'm not a new customer) and then price will go up to $55 (I pay $58 now for internet only). Advertised price for this package (for existing customers) is $70.


So - rather than "commit the crime" and you made the call and saved money to boot! Amazing!!!


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

WVZR1 said:


> So - rather than "commit the crime" and you made the call and saved money to boot! Amazing!!!


I guess, but I'm still not sure what "crime" some referred to. I just wanted to know the cheapest way to get a Cablecard -- I wasn't planning to steal one.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

9300170 said:


> so, you're asking about the best way to commit a crime?


To what crime do you refer?

Have you confused cable cards with the credit card-like devices needed for satellite receivers?


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

aaroncgi said:


> There are numerous sub channels available in this area that you wouldn't get through cable, and we've found them very worthwhile.


After playing around with it, as best I can tell, I'm getting all the Seattle OTA subchannels on cable also. Except for the OTA station that carries all the religious subchannels. But I don't watch those anyway.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

What OTA antenna are you using and are your using good quality cable?

The best antennas are still the "old fashioned" yagis, and pointing them is something of an art, but if your cable is poor quality, it won't make a difference. Also, the location of the antenna makes all the differnce in the world. You may also need a pre-amp to bring in the OTA channels.

My point is don't give up. I have seen people use those awful new-fangled square or other gimmick antennas or bad cable and bad connections and without needed amplification, although if you have a big enough antenna and are relatively close (15-30 miles) you shouldn't need amplification. Tell me it is NOT a small antenna. Really double-check you are doing this RIGHT, as in good QUALITY antenna, cable, connectors and, if needed, pre-amp. Then throw in the towel, but if you are in the Seattle city limits, I don't think you should have a problem. If you need a 2nd antenna, you can hook that up as well.

It is true that weather will mess with our stupid ATSC. I have the same problem here in the Los Angeles area, except AFTER finding the best LOCATION for my small antenna on the roof (not where I originally wanted it, but almost at the other end of the house) and using GOOD quality RG6 with compression connection NO AMP necessary to feed ONE TV. However, I am DA to feed ELEVEN devices in various rooms with NINE of those devices having internal splitters and I am getting 90's to 100 on some channels with the worst being 72, but never lost, but lower readings in the rain, but never a loss. That's about 120 channels of OTA (most multiplexed, of course).

Try everything before feeding the cable pig.


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

Series3Sub said:


> What OTA antenna are you using and are your using good quality cable?
> ***********
> Try everything before feeding the cable pig.


For reference, I'm using a DB4 antenna, mounted on the roof with a 10 foot mast. I also tried a Clearstream 2 and a DB8, and a preamp, but this one gave me the best results. RG6 quad shielded cable with compression connections. Good quality stuff.

I was more than willing to continue experimenting with OTA, until I realized that my Comcast bill with basic cable (which gives me more channels than I need) is virtually the same price as internet only. That pretty much took the wind out of my OTA sails.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

RDK said:


> After playing around with it, as best I can tell, I'm getting all the Seattle OTA subchannels on cable also. Except for the OTA station that carries all the religious subchannels. But I don't watch those anyway.


Well that's cool, and news to me. I thought the cable 'local channels' only gave you the primary network feed, ie 4-1, 5-1, 7-1, 9-1, 11-1, etc.

$55/month is certainly a lot more palatable than $70. Hard to argue with a lower price for more services!


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

Series3Sub said:


> What OTA antenna are you using and are your using good quality cable?
> 
> The best antennas are still the "old fashioned" yagis, and pointing them is something of an art, but if your cable is poor quality, it won't make a difference. Also, the location of the antenna makes all the differnce in the world. You may also need a pre-amp to bring in the OTA channels.
> 
> ...


How do you use 2 (Or more) antennas without them interfering with each other? What if the 2nd one if picking up stray signals of the stations the first is picking up and vice verse?


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

RDK said:


> For reference, I'm using a DB4 antenna, mounted on the roof with a 10 foot mast. I also tried a Clearstream 2 and a DB8, and a preamp, but this one gave me the best results. RG6 quad shielded cable with compression connections. Good quality stuff.
> 
> I was more than willing to continue experimenting with OTA, until I realized that my Comcast bill with basic cable (which gives me more channels than I need) is virtually the same price as internet only. That pretty much took the wind out of my OTA sails.


Check and make sure that they're in HD (If that's what you're interested in), and that they'll work with a Tivo and a cable card. Here Time Warner has a basic package for like $15 a month, but it's encrypted so it would require a cable card to use, but they REFUSE to offer a cable card for JUST that package.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

RDK said:


> For reference, I'm using a DB4 antenna, mounted on the roof with a 10 foot mast. I also tried a Clearstream 2 and a DB8, and a preamp, but this one gave me the best results. RG6 quad shielded cable with compression connections. Good quality stuff.
> 
> I was more than willing to continue experimenting with OTA, until I realized that my Comcast bill with basic cable (which gives me more channels than I need) is virtually the same price as internet only. That pretty much took the wind out of my OTA sails.


So, all the Seattle digital locals are UHF, non at VHF High-band. Well, if you feel you've done your best, then go with what you think will work. I just didn't want you to have to pay a dime extra for cable.

I can tell you that it is very difficult to find anyone who is either willing or capable (not that difficult a task) to install an OTA well. That means we don't have many people who do this often who know all the tricks and how to deal with common problems.

Best of luck to you.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

kturcotte said:


> How do you use 2 (Or more) antennas without them interfering with each other? What if the 2nd one if picking up stray signals of the stations the first is picking up and vice verse?


If the transmitters are in different locations as opposed to using a motor to turn a single antenna. I wasn't certain it could be done with good results, but I came across a tech sheet explaining it and some people on a different forum have done this with good results. I'm sure someone on this forum smarter than I can explain it in more detail.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

aaroncgi said:


> Well that's cool, and news to me. I thought the cable 'local channels' only gave you the primary network feed, ie 4-1, 5-1, 7-1, 9-1, 11-1, etc...


That's true of analog cable local channels, likely, since they have to all be shoehorned into channels 2-13.

Digital? YMMV.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

Series3Sub said:


> If the transmitters are in different locations as opposed to using a motor to turn a single antenna. I wasn't certain it could be done with good results, but I came across a tech sheet explaining it and some people on a different forum have done this with good results.


Instead of combining the output of two antennas using an ordinary splitter/combiner, you can avoid interference by using a frequency-selective combiner to take only certain frequencies from each antenna. A VHF/UHF band combiner combines signals from a VHF antenna and a UHF antenna, and a Channel Master "Join-Tenna" (or equivalent) combines a single channel from one antenna with all others from a second antenna.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

Series3Sub said:


> So, all the Seattle digital locals are UHF, non at VHF High-band. Well, if you feel you've done your best, then go with what you think will work. I just didn't want you to have to pay a dime extra for cable.
> ...


Almost all the Seattle digital locals are UHF, but not all. Channels 9 (PBS), 11 (CW), and 13 (FOX) are still VHF. Those are the real channel numbers. FOX is rebroadcast in 16:9 480P on real channel 25 (22-2 virtual), which is nice, because it's transmitter isn't in Seattle. So while there aren't any VHF low stations, it's still useful to have VHF high reception.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

L David Matheny said:


> Instead of combining the output of two antennas using an ordinary splitter/combiner, you can avoid interference by using a frequency-selective combiner to take only certain frequencies from each antenna. A VHF/UHF band combiner combines signals from a VHF antenna and a UHF antenna, and a Channel Master "Join-Tenna" (or equivalent) combines a single channel from one antenna with all others from a second antenna.


In addition to what David mentions, if you're combining a UHF antenna with a VHF antenna and have need for a preamp, you can use a preamp designed for this specific purpose. For example, the Winegard AP-2870:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...ries-Pre-Amplifier-(AP-2870)&sku=615798100100

Or, the ChannelMaster CM7777:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=ANC7777

If our CM4228 antenna wasn't so decent on high VHF, I'd probably be using one of these myself.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

aaroncgi said:


> In addition to what David mentions, if you're combining a UHF antenna with a VHF antenna and have need for a preamp, you can use a preamp designed for this specific purpose. For example, the Winegard AP-2870:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...ries-Pre-Amplifier-(AP-2870)&sku=615798100100
> 
> ...


Good points. I actually use a CM7777 preamp, and I still forgot about that option of connecting two antennas (one UHF and one VHF) to it.


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

unitron said:


> That's true of analog cable local channels, likely, since they have to all be shoehorned into channels 2-13.
> 
> Digital? YMMV.





kturcotte said:


> Check and make sure that they're in HD (If that's what you're interested in), and that they'll work with a Tivo and a cable card. Here Time Warner has a basic package for like $15 a month, but it's encrypted so it would require a cable card to use, but they REFUSE to offer a cable card for JUST that package.


There are about 50 clear channels (approximately 10 of which are HD) carried on the same cable that provides my internet (even with internet only service). That includes 4-2, 7-2, 13-2, etc.. All the TV's in my house can see them clearly, as can the Tivo. However, the Tivo guide doesn't map the channels correctly without a cablecard, which requires cable service. But as mentioned previously, my cost for internet+basic cable is essentially the same as internet only (less than $5 different).

The monthly Tivo service fee for cable is $20 (vice $10 for OTA), but I'm lifetime, so that's a moot point.

I haven't done a channel-by-channel comparison, but I appear to have all the OTA channels (that I could receive) on cable, plus several that I couldn't receive (like CW, PBS, CBUT, Joe, etc.).

My OTA setup does work (I get about 25 channels), but the reception on some channels is marginal, and drops to less than marginal when it rains hard (there is a hill between me and the transmitter, and everything is covered by thick trees in this region).

If basic cable didn't include HD, or if subscribing to it caused me a significant net cost increase, I'd probably keep working the OTA angle. But since it does, and doesn't, cable seems like the best option for me. But my circumstances probably differ significantly from others.


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## RDK (Oct 9, 2011)

aaroncgi said:


> Almost all the Seattle digital locals are UHF, but not all. Channels 9 (PBS), 11 (CW), and 13 (FOX) are still VHF. Those are the real channel numbers. FOX is rebroadcast in 16:9 480P on real channel 25 (22-2 virtual), which is nice, because it's transmitter isn't in Seattle. So while there aren't any VHF low stations, it's still useful to have VHF high reception.


Perhaps that explains why I couldn't get 9 and 11. I do get 13, but that might be because the transmitter is in my backyard (I'm in Bremerton).


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