# Pioneer Elite 82TXS & S3? HDCP sucks!



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I just bought and hooked up a brand new Pioneer Elite 82TXS switching amp to go with a new Sony 50" SXRD TV.

The F*#$ing HDCP is driving me nuts.

The S3 shows "*HDCP not enabled*" whenever the TV is ON. and "*HDCP enabled*" when the TV is OFF. Isn't the irony just perfect? So the Sony/Elite/Tivo work all just fine as long as I have the TV OFF. Who the F%$% designed this crap?

Anyone else get any of these components to work? And no, using component is not an option for my particular needs.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

I don't have that exact setup, but just for reference, I have the Series 3 going through an 84TXI to a Samsung and it works well. No problems with HDCP.

Al


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

So I'm going through the papers in the Pioneer box and there is a yellow warning page saying: "The unit might not work using HDMI switching for some devices. Try using component or bypass the receiver for that HDMI device." WTF? I just spent a bucket of cash on a receiver specifically because of its feature set and all they can say is 'try component or bypass'? 

I'll call Pioneer tomorrow and see if they have any know issues with the Sony SXRD or the TiVo.

Can you imagine the number of returns TiVo is getting because of all of these HDMI issues?


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## phototrek (Mar 20, 2005)

I got a receiver *after* checking if it's compatible with the TiVo. There's only one S3, but many capable receivers, so that felt to be the right order. YMMV.


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## JoN8282 (Feb 27, 2005)

you may need to exchange for a new reciever  unfortunately DRM sucks and ruins the party...


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## fredtwd (Sep 19, 2006)

How does one check S3 compatibility?

phototrek, it would be useful to know how you did this prior to your purchase.

Thanks.



phototrek said:


> I got a receiver *after* checking if it's compatible with the TiVo. There's only one S3, but many capable receivers, so that felt to be the right order. YMMV.


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

ah30k said:


> I just bought and hooked up a brand new Pioneer Elite 82TXS switching amp to go with a new Sony 50" SXRD TV.
> 
> The F*#$ing HDCP is driving me nuts.
> 
> ...


I had that same issue with a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR connected to a Yamaha RX-V2600 (that has 2 HDMI inputs and 1 out) connected to my 60" Sony SXRD (R60XBR1). I believe the issue is that the SA8300HD doesn't know how to deal with a HDMI repeater (which is what the Yahama was doing from what I understand). I had to connect the SA8300HD directly to the SXRD. I had other weird issues with HDMI with that cable box and so I ended up going to component. For my TiVo Series 3 I decided not to mess with the Yamaha and just connect it directly to the SXRD via HDMI for the time being. When I need a 3rd HDMI input I guess I will have to revisit that.

UPDATE: Speak of the devil. Right after I typed this I went downstairs and turned on my Sony SXRD and the message on the TiVo was that HDMI message "Viewing isn't permitted using the HDMI input try using another input (or something to that effect). I NEVER saw that before (I just installed the 8.1.1 update about 36 hours ago). I was able to fix it by switching to another input on my HDTV and then switching back to the input the TIVO uses. The S3 is connected directly to my Sony SXRD HDTV via HDMI.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

I have the Pioneer Elite 84. It works fine with my TiVo (and everything else). My TV is a Pioneer 5060HD. I have read messages somewhere stating HDMI problems between TiVo and Sony. I don't remember the exact nature of the problem.

Jim H.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

The difficulty is there are three components in the loop. I'm not sure if it is the Sony TV, the Receiver or the TiVo? I think it is really strange that the Pioneer Receiver sends a '*HDCP enabled*' status when the Sony TV is turned off but a '*HDCP not enabled*' when the TV is on. Something is really screwing up. I think I'm about to strain the return policies of BestBuy. Also, the receiver took forever to setup and I'm not looking forward to that.

p.s. Phototrek, I'm also curious how you confirmed compatibility prior to your purchase. I'd love to see this list.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

ah30k said:


> The difficulty is there are three components in the loop.


No, I don't think that's the issue.

I have my S3 connected to a 84TXSi, which is in turn connected to a Mitsubishi DLP. All three use HDCP and there are no problems. The S3 handshakes with the receiver---it doesn't care if the TV is or isn't on.


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

Denon 2307ci and no problems with series 3 or any other of the HDMI components.

No problem with series 3 HDMI on the Key Digital switch box either.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

My S3 and an SA 8300HD go through a Denon receiver to my Panny plasma TV with DVI input. The S3 works fine. The 8300HD usually takes while to cycle through a few sync cycles (30 seconds in one case), but eventually works.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Amnesia said:


> The S3 handshakes with the receiver---it doesn't care if the TV is or isn't on.


In my case I can watch the S3 HDCP status change when I turn the TV on/off. It is clear as day that the Pioneer is attempting to pass some sort of copy status back to the S3 based upon the current state of the TV. I believe the concept is the receiver is acting in "repeater" mode.

Either way, I'll bet that TiVo will tell me the problem is with either the Pioneer Receiver or the Sony TV, Pioneer will tell me the problem is with the S3 or the Sony TV and Sony will tell me the problem is with the Pioneer Receiver or the TiVo. So I'll contend the difficulty in finding a solution really IS there are three components in the loop.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Either way, I'll bet that TiVo will tell me the problem is with either the Pioneer Receiver or the Sony TV, Pioneer will tell me the problem is with the S3 or the Sony TV and Sony will tell me the problem is with the Pioneer Receiver or the TiVo.


Well, since I have an S3 and a receiver very similar to yours and everything is working fine, I would suggest that the issue is the TV...


ah30k said:


> So I'll contend the difficulty in finding a solution really IS there are three components in the loop.


It's not that there are three components, it's just a matter of what the components are...


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

You might want to take a look at www.avsforum.com about the Sony TVs. I have a vague memory, and it could be very wrong, about this issue with the Sonys. IF so, there could be suggestions or maybe a pointer to a firmware update there.

Al


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I got off the phone with Pioneer regarding the Receiver. She explained why the HDCP state is 'enabled' when the TV is off and 'not enabled' when the TV is on and she made some sense. Of course she blamed the S3 and the TV.

She said that the Pioneer Elite Receiver supports HDMI 1.1 repeater technology and that when a TV Monitor is detected to be "ON" the receiver passes the HDCP protocol through to the S3. If this passthrough is bungled by either the TV or the S3, it will show 'not enabled'. When the TV is turned off, the receiver generates its own copy protection protocol and enables the HDCP itself.

Her claim is that the S3 is not properly recognizing the HDCP repeater functionality of the receiver.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Her claim is that the S3 is not properly recognizing the HDCP repeater functionality of the receiver.


Well, if the 82 and the 84 use the same technology (and they almost certainly do), then it's not the S3---it's the TV.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Update after Sony call: 
After getting my call escalated to a product specialist, I had a nice discussion with a Sony engineer. Once I explained my problem of trying to switch all HDMI sources through a Pioneer receiver, he groaned and said I know exactly the problem. He claimed that the industry as a whole is having a lot of trouble with HDMI and in particular Surround Receivers (which have taken on the new role of being HDMI switchers). He claims there are many parts of the HDMI/HDCP protocol which leave some room for interpretation. For example, he said the link can run at three frequencies. I assume he means the message frequency rather than the modulation frequency, but Im not sure. Sony runs at 60 (not sure of the units). There is an LG BlueRay player out on the market that runs at 24 and will not negotiate with the Sony TV. The LG player is sending out an update to users, I assume via a disk that can be put in the player which will update the firmware. He said it is a bit of a crap shoot and success depends on the particular combination of components/vendors.

At this point I need to change either my Pioneer Elite Receiver or my Sony SXRD Television. Im torn. I really like both, they just wont work together. I can be pretty much assured that the Sony TV will work with a Sony Receiver but while the Sony TV is best in class I am less impressed with the performance qualities of the Sony Receiver. I could try other receivers such as the Yamaha but it would just be rolling the dice again and I have been spoiled by some of the features of the Pioneer & Sony such as renaming the inputs to more friendly things such as Video1 -> Xbox360 and TV -> TiVo S3.

Arghhhh such woes. I guess I shouldnt complain that my worries are which surround to match with my big-screen TV 

Anyway, this is getting a little off topic from TiVo, but it might exonerate the S3.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

ah30k said:


> At this point I need to change either my Pioneer Elite Receiver or my Sony SXRD Television. Im torn. I really like both, they just wont work together.


 Sorry if I'm out of line on this one, maybe not understanding the issue fully, but can't you just eliminate the video going through your receiver altogether? Doesn't your TV have a digital output? If so, then you could simply connect the digital output from your TV to your receiver. That's how I do it. This allows me to have as many inputs as I want in to the TV and one output to my surround sound.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

pl1 said:


> Sorry if I'm out of line on this one, maybe not understanding the issue fully, but can't you just eliminate the video going through your receiver altogether? Doesn't your TV have a digital output? If so, then you could simply connect the digital output from your TV to your receiver. That's how I do it. This allows me to have as many inputs as I want in to the TV and one output to my surround sound.


So you use your TV as the 'switcher' rather than the surround receiver as the master switcher. I suppose this could work as my TV has about nine inputs and at least two component and two HDMI. I just started down the path of using the receiver because it does superior upconversion from SD sources to 1080i and it is convenient for my family to use the input dial on the receiver to select which source they want to watch.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

ah30k said:


> So you use your TV as the 'switcher' rather than the surround receiver as the master switcher. I suppose this could work as my TV has about nine inputs and at least two component and two HDMI. I just started down the path of using the receiver because it does superior upconversion from SD sources to 1080i and it is convenient for my family to use the input dial on the receiver to select which source they want to watch.


Exactly. Since I have three TiVo's and a DVd connected, the TV is the input switcher. I set my remote to automatically change inputs on the TV when I select a different TiVo.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

ah30k said:


> So you use your TV as the 'switcher' rather than the surround receiver as the master switcher. I suppose this could work as my TV has about nine inputs and at least two component and two HDMI. I just started down the path of using the receiver because it does superior upconversion from SD sources to 1080i and it is convenient for my family to use the input dial on the receiver to select which source they want to watch.


Oh, and you could still have an input to your TV for the times you want DVD I would think.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

That's OK, but it is a shame not to use the 82. 

I let my 84 do all the video conversion to 720P. This lets me set the Tivo to pass through native resolution. Since the reciever is always outputting 720P there is no sync issue with switching resolution to the TV. After trying several setup options, I believe this produces the best picture, by a small margin, in my setup.

Al


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

acvthree said:


> I let my 84 do all the video conversion to 720P. This lets me set the Tivo to pass through native resolution.


Personally, for both my Panasonic plasma and my Polaroid LCD, I find that the fixed 1080i output from the TiVo looks beautiful, even when the station is providing an SD version in digital. I'm very impressed with the picture quality from both the cable stations and from the OTA stations I receive, using the TiVo's output.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Good!

As always, you should try several setups and see what works best for you.

I think mine is the best in my setup, but that is to the eyes of a hobbyist and the difference was small. Others might not see, or care about, the difference.

Have fun. This is great stuff. 

Al


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## mattn2 (Mar 23, 2001)

acvthree said:


> That's OK, but it is a shame not to use the 82.
> 
> I let my 84 do all the video conversion to 720P. This lets me set the Tivo to pass through native resolution. Since the reciever is always outputting 720P there is no sync issue with switching resolution to the TV. After trying several setup options, I believe this produces the best picture, by a small margin, in my setup.
> 
> Al


Al,

Can you point me to where you set the 84 to do the conversion? I am a proud new owner of the device and the manual seems to be not organized well or complete in some areas.

One example is the "companion" remote. There are no instructions as to how to program it to operate the component selected (play, pause, etc), but there is a reference that this is what the buttons are for.

# Matt


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Look on page 66-67 of the manual for how to set the 84's output resolution.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

ah30k said:


> I just started down the path of using the receiver because it does superior upconversion from SD sources to 1080i and it is convenient for my family to use the input dial on the receiver to select which source they want to watch.


Now that I Googled that receiver, I can see why you might want to take advantage of it's capabilities. I had no idea it was something that expensive. And I agree with you that it should do what was represented to you.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> Look on page 66-67 of the manual for how to set the 84's output resolution.


The manual is very deceptive here.

The little note on page 66 that states "if a setting doesn't appear in the AV Parameter menu it is unavailable due to the current source".

I had downloaded the manual, asked questions in the AVSforum, and done what I thought was good research. While I think the receiver is by far the best I have ever owned, I was very dissapointed at how many of the video features are not available for HDMI or Component inputs.

The resolution selection does, however, work with HDMI and from what I can see, the scaling is very good. To my eyes, it is better than my Samsung and the Tivo. It is at least as good as the DV-59AVI.

I was extremely dissapointed with the aspect support. This does not function with HDMI and with componeny only has a stretch up/down and stretch right/left. It says it does ZOOM, but that is the stretch right/left function. This left me with issues with non-anamophic letter boxed DVDs and the DirectTV Tivo 10-250 that did not have a zoom function for shows like Stargate SG1.

Again, my memory is that other people have reported problems with the Sony TVs with this, and other, HDMI switches and scalers.

Al


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Problem solved. After putting quite a load on the BestBuy return policy I found the problem. The voodoo nature of HDCP/HDMI only made the diagnosing worse.

Scenarios:
*S3* <-----75ft HDMI -----> *Pioneer Elite Receiver* <----- 6ft HDMI -----> *Sony SXRD LCoS*
S3 does not negotiate HDCP and fails to transmit anything.

*S3* <-----75ft HDMI -----> *Sony SXRD* <-----digital optical -----> *Pioneer Receiver*
S3 transmits audio/video to the Sony, but the Sony fails to forward digital audio on to the receiver.

I assume the TV which I bought open-box must be screwed up and exchange it for the JVC HD-ILA LCoS set (very nice, but rated slightly lower than the Sony)

*S3* <-----75ft HDMI -----> *Pioneer Elite Receiver* <----- 6ft HDMI -----> *JVC 56 HD-ILA*
S3 does not negotiate HDCP and fails to transmit anything.

*S3* <-----75ft HDMI -----> *JVC 56 HD-ILA* <-----digital optical -----> *Pioneer Receiver*
S3 transmits audio/video to the JVC, but the JVC fails to forward digital audio on to the receiver.

WTF??? It is very unlikely that the TV is at fault. I really dont want to pack up the receiver.

I haul the S3 down to the basement and hook it up local via a 6ft HDMI rather than the 75ft one.

IT ALL WORKS! It looks like the solution for me is to move the S3 local to my HDMI system and drive the remote system via a 75 ft component/optical cable run. (BTW, monoprice has kickass prices on cables. I spent $38 at BestBuy for their cheapass component cable and I can get a 75ft one for the same price at monoprice).

Extra sweet is that the Pioneer Receiver changes the HDCP state to not-connected when the receiver is currently selecting a source other than the S3 so as to avoid the dreaded TiVo cannot use this component output error during simultaneous operations.


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## snathanb (Sep 13, 2006)

You should have mentioned the HDMI cable length up front. 75ft is well beyond the recommended max for HDMI cables, unless you are running some very, very heavy gauge ones with amplification. 

Typical HDMI cables are 28AWG and aren't recommended for over 5 meters
Heavy duty ones (24AWG)) aren't recommended for over 15 meters.

You may get some degraded video (if that, since it digital) to pass over a run that long, but I can see why the HDCP handshaking wasn't working.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

snathanb said:


> You may get some degraded video (if that, since it digital) to pass over a run that long, but I can see why the HDCP handshaking wasn't working.


I ran across the degraded picture problem running a 6 foot HDMI cable to a wall plate and from the wall plate another 10 Foot HDMI cable. I couldn't quite figure out what it was at the time. The picture was just a little degraded compared to another TV closer to the TiVo. And, my 1080i fixed setting kept reverting to 720p.

So, I swapped all of the HDMI over to component and the picture looks fine. I'm running 6 foot HDMI for one output and 16 a foot component cable for the other output and that seems to be a good solution for me, without adding any amplifiers or splitters. How far (if you know) can you run component cable out of curiosity?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

snathanb said:


> You should have mentioned the HDMI cable length up front. 75ft is well beyond the recommended max for HDMI cables, unless you are running some very, very heavy gauge ones with amplification.


The cable was advertised to include a built in equalizer (the remote connector is much thicker and contains the equalization circuitry) which was to have cleaned up the signals.

BTW, while the handshaking was not working, the picture quality when connected directly to the TV was great.


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## bk406 (Feb 22, 2007)

pl1 said:


> Doesn't your TV have a digital output? If so, then you could simply connect the digital output from your TV to your receiver. That's how I do it. This allows me to have as many inputs as I want in to the TV and one output to my surround sound.


You would THINK this would work. I tried it and it didn't. I have a 
46" BRAVIA LCD Flat Panel HDTV KDL-46V2500 and a Sony Elite AVR. I have an optical cable from the TV to the A/VR. Get great digital sound from the RF side of the TV. However, no sound from any other compnents i have hooked up to the TV. All my video goes thru the TV. All sound goes thru the reciever except the RF. I called Sony and they said that the TV didnt put any sound out of the optical port except from the RF cable input. Call me crazy, but this seems like poor engineering. Otherwise, i would run all video and audio into the TV and have ONE optical cable out to the reciever. 
This doesnt make sense on another level since HDMI carries both the audio and video. But, sony says you cant get the audio out of the TV except with the RF. Still doesnt sound right to me.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

bk406 said:


> You would THINK this would work. I tried it and it didn't. I have a
> 46" BRAVIA LCD Flat Panel HDTV KDL-46V2500 and a Sony Elite AVR. I have an optical cable from the TV to the A/VR. Get great digital sound from the RF side of the TV. However, no sound from any other compnents i have hooked up to the TV. All my video goes thru the TV. All sound goes thru the reciever except the RF. I called Sony and they said that the TV didnt put any sound out of the optical port except from the RF cable input. Call me crazy, but this seems like poor engineering. Otherwise, i would run all video and audio into the TV and have ONE optical cable out to the reciever.
> This doesnt make sense on another level since HDMI carries both the audio and video. But, sony says you cant get the audio out of the TV except with the RF. Still doesnt sound right to me.


I found out the same thing (googled my TV model) actually with my Panasonic plasma. And like you, I was kind of surprised. It will only provide dolby digital when using OTA broadcasts. It will not pass-through the dolby digital from the TiVo.

When I first wrote this, I ass-u-med I was getting dolby digital, but since the light did not light up on my receiver, I looked further into it.

So, what I'm doing, is running two optical outputs from two TiVos to my surround sound receiver (which has two optical inputs). My remote control has a macro to switch inputs when I change TiVo sources. (Not that I can hear a whole lot of difference, mind you. I'm not using the most expensive surround sound at <$200)


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## bk406 (Feb 22, 2007)

Well, at least i'm not alone. The only time i see a problem with the set up is the Series 3 SOMETIMES gets the video out of synch with the audio (no more than 500ms i dont think). I think the problem is not running the video and audio thru the same component. Unfortunately, i cant really do that since my A/VR is 4 years old and has no HDMI inputs or outputs. The plus side is i have only found this problem with the local FOX affiliate on their live news broadcasts and my local FSN network. All the other channels, both analog, digital, and digital HD sync up ok.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bk406 said:


> You would THINK this would work. I tried it and it didn't. I have a
> 46" BRAVIA LCD Flat Panel HDTV KDL-46V2500 and a Sony Elite AVR. I have an optical cable from the TV to the A/VR. Get great digital sound from the RF side of the TV. However, no sound from any other compnents i have hooked up to the TV. All my video goes thru the TV. All sound goes thru the reciever except the RF. I called Sony and they said that the TV didnt put any sound out of the optical port except from the RF cable input. Call me crazy, but this seems like poor engineering. Otherwise, i would run all video and audio into the TV and have ONE optical cable out to the reciever.
> This doesnt make sense on another level since HDMI carries both the audio and video. But, sony says you cant get the audio out of the TV except with the RF. Still doesnt sound right to me.


This is normal. Most if not all HDTVs do this.


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## bk406 (Feb 22, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> This is normal. Most if not all HDTVs do this.


Might be normal, but i still say its bad engineering.


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## erikrh (Mar 7, 2007)

ah30k,

I realize this is well after the fact, and it appears you have already fixed your issue, but I wanted to pass on my experience. I recently purchased the Sony 52" LCD TV and Pioneer Elite 84tsi. I had planned on purchasing the 82tsi, but the sales guy convinced me to spend the extra $200 and move up to the 84, because he had seen several returns of the 82 do to switching issues. So far, like the other 84 owners in this thread, I have had no problems with the 84.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

HFC

How did I miss this. I just ordered mine (82) last week. I thought I checked over here.

Hopefully with some new firmware the problem will be rectified. 

Crap, Crap, Crap!!


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

bk406 said:


> Might be normal, but i still say its bad engineering.


I would think that the legal department probably had more to do with restricting the output of digital audio, then the engineering team did...


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

tase2 said:


> HFC
> 
> How did I miss this. I just ordered mine (82) last week. I thought I checked over here.
> 
> ...


Rereading the entire thread, it looks like I may end up OK.

Of course I would have to have a Sony TV too.  (Sony KDF-E42A10)


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## bk406 (Feb 22, 2007)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I would think that the legal department probably had more to do with restricting the output of digital audio, then the engineering team did...


Why on earth would it be a legal issue? It;s just a switching problem.


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## Razorbak (Aug 21, 2005)

FYI, there are known HDMI (handshake, dark picture) and sound (soft LFE) issues on the Pioneer Elite VSX-8#TXs receivers. Several firmware updates have been developed, but they must be installed by a Pioneer service center, and only about 20 of them across the country have the gear to do the installations. There are a few threads about this on AVSforum.com. If you are having problems with your Elite receiver, start by visiting the following thread...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=787551


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

bk406 said:


> Why on earth would it be a legal issue? It;s just a switching problem.


It's not a _switching problem_. For this to be considered a _switching problem_, you are assuming that the engineers designed the TV to _repeat_ a digital audio signal from a third party input. It wasn't designed to do it, so that's why it doesn't work. If it was designed to do it, but wasn't working, than it would be a switching problem. Understand?

As far as legal goes, I was just throwing out the thought that _maybe_ the CE companies don't want to take responsibility for repeating a digital audio signal in digital format. That's the way it was, and probably still is, with *home audio* CD burners, mini disks, etc. Whenever a digital copy was made, it was flagged as a copy. Any other device that could record digital signals honored this flag, and would only play back the content. It wouldn't output the digital signal, or record it to any media. That's where in the world I got my thought from. It may be wrong, but it does offer an explanation.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

Anyone have an 82 with Series 3 that has not had any problems?

Mine is coming Monday.

I am worried the S3, Sony, and 82 won't play nice.

The only other component currently is a Sony DVPNS50 DVD player.

I'm hoping it will all work together.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

My 82 is working fine now. I had a lot of HDMI problems but I think the root cause was bad cables. I really like the receiver.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

ah30k said:


> My 82 is working fine now. I had a lot of HDMI problems but I think the root cause was bad cables. I really like the receiver.


Cool

I was trying to figure out all your problems. All my components are within 5 feet of each other, so I have my fingers crossed


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## bk406 (Feb 22, 2007)

DCIFRTHS said:


> If it was designed to do it, but wasn't working, than it would be a switching problem. Understand?
> 
> .


You dont have to get nasty about it! Jeez. Some of you peole take this stuff WWAAYYYY to serious. I UNDERSTAND IT WASNT DESIGNED TO DO IT. YOU THINK IM A MORON!!

In writing the word PROBLEM, i meant problem in terms of it not being able to do it.
BTW,
You have 1300 posts. Do you work for a living!? Post on this board?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

bk406 said:


> You dont have to get nasty about it! Jeez. Some of you peole take this stuff WWAAYYYY to serious. I UNDERSTAND IT WASNT DESIGNED TO DO IT. YOU THINK IM A MORON!!
> 
> In writing the word PROBLEM, i meant problem in terms of it not being able to do it.
> BTW,
> You have 1300 posts. Do you work for a living!? Post on this board?


I wasn't trying to be nasty. Sorry if you were offended.

Total Posts: 1,304 = (0.50 posts per day) I've been a member since Jan 2000. Is that a lot of posts?


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## bk406 (Feb 22, 2007)

My apologies as well. I took the "understand" the wrong way i suppose. Hard to impart tone, etc, by writing on a message board.


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## buddhawood (Oct 9, 2000)

fredtwd said:


> How does one check S3 compatibility?
> 
> phototrek, it would be useful to know how you did this prior to your purchase.
> 
> Thanks.


I've read all the post's in this thread and haven't seen ananswer for this. Anyone have one? Thanks!


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

The short answer is that you can't check compatibility prior to a purchase despite what that one poster said. Everyone claims full compliance and would never admit to their equip not working. No one has put together a comprehensive real world compliance table.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

I received my 82 on Mon. It has a build date of 08/06 which means it definitely requires the firmware upgrade. I am currently trying to find a service center with the up to date firmware. There are none in CT. I will try to keep you posted.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

tase2,
Do you have any info on this firmware fix? How do you know if you need it? What does it fix?


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

ah30k said:


> tase2,
> Do you have any info on this firmware fix? How do you know if you need it? What does it fix?


Sorry I took so long to reply-I will give you all the info very shortly.

In the meantime, did you receive an email from Pioneer regarding the firmware upgrade?


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

This is all the latest info I got, some may be repeats and please check the links at the bottom for the verry latest.

Here is a copy of the email sent

(mine is not registered yet as I have not even plugged it in yet)

Dear Valued Customer:

Re: Free Firmware Upgrade for Certain 2005 and 2006 Pioneer Home A/V Receivers

We would like to inform you of the availability of a free firmware upgrade to address a potential service issue with the following Pioneer home A/V receivers:

VSX-72TXV VSX-74TXVi 
VSX-81TXV VSX-82TXS 
VSX-84TXSi VSX-9110TXV-K

Pioneer has become aware that in some circumstances the above-listed receivers may experience certain audio and/or video symptoms related to the use of an HDMI port on the receiver. The symptoms include (1) picture quality issues (dark screen image, no video image, white screen and/or intermittent picture) when the input signal to the receiver is connected through an analog port (component, S-Video, composite) and the output signal from the receiver is connected though an HDMI port, or (2) low subwoofer speaker sound level when the input signal to the receiver is connected through an HDMI port. Importantly, this potential service issue does not pose any health or safety risk.

If you have an affected home A/V receiver and you are experiencing a service issue as described above, please contact Pioneer Customer Service toll free at 800-421-1404 to arrange for a free firmware upgrade. Pioneer service representatives are available Monday through Friday, 9:00 a.m. to 7:30 p.m. (Eastern Time).

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this potential service issue may cause you, and we thank you for your cooperation and continued support of Pioneer.

Sincerely,

Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. 
---------------------------------------------

This is the latest firmware #'s

Here's the firmware version on my new unit.
M1.002 F0.503
D1.003 H1.005
Host 28
f1.004 s1.001

(That is for the "84, but 95% sure it is the same for the "82")

This is how you check to see which firmware #'s you currently have.

Start with the receiver off/stand by. Then hold down the Standard Surround button ON THE RECEIVER. While holding down the STD Surround button, press and hold the power button ON THE RECEIVER. Do this for like 3 or 4 secs. The unit will then turn on and begin displaying the information. Be quick about it as the information rotates automatically. The HDMI firmware version is on the second display of information.

The other method mentioned (and possibly the better of the two)On the receiver itself
*hold down* the Normal Surround button and then press *and hold* the power button until the display starts (a couple of seconds, I found)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
There is also something you need to do to activate the LFE +10db boost (whatever that is)

Inside the recievers front flip down door. Press and Hold the Video Select button, keep holding It, then turn on your reciever untill you see LFE +10 In the display.

That should be it.

there is tons of info at
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=722859

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=787551

good luck and we should all keep each other posted


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

Tase, that is an excellent summery of the situation. Thanks for providing that here for everyone.

My Elite 84 is currently in a Pioneer service center for the firmware upgrades you are referring to. Can't wait to get it back. The receiver is really excellent in my opinion. You are only affected by the "low LFE" if you send a pre-decoded multi-channel PCM stream to the receiver - like that coming from an HD-DVD player or a PS3 along with advanced codecs. Regular 5.1 from HDMI, when the receiver is doing the decoding, is not affected and that is what most people are using right now. I don't have and HD-DVD player or a PS3, but I am upgrading my Pioneer because I know I will eventually.

The other HDMI issues that are addressed is icing on the cake with the firmware updates, because even without the updates I am finding my 84 to be the most compliant HDMI device that I have used yet. It pretty much works with everything I have tried - even components that gave me HDMI problems in the past. I DO know that some people with sony displays have run into problems, and I hope those problems get worked out somehow between Pioneer and Sony.

I just wanted to clarify because some people might be trying to find the low LFE problem when they don't even have a source for a decoded multi-channel PCM stream through HDMI.

Jim H.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

jhimmel said:


> Tase, that is an excellent summery of the situation. Thanks for providing that here for everyone.
> 
> My Elite 84 is currently in a Pioneer service center for the firmware upgrades you are referring to. Can't wait to get it back. The receiver is really excellent in my opinion. You are only affected by the "low LFE" if you send a pre-decoded multi-channel PCM stream to the receiver - like that coming from an HD-DVD player or a PS3 along with advanced codecs. Regular 5.1 from HDMI, when the receiver is doing the decoding, is not affected and that is what most people are using right now. I don't have and HD-DVD player or a PS3, but I am upgrading my Pioneer because I know I will eventually.
> 
> ...


Your welcome and thank you.

I am not effected by the LFE problem either, but it is a major issue, so I threw it out there.

I am 5.1

I can't wait to get it back and plug it in for the first time, get it set up and sit back and enjoy.

I have a bunch of movies waiting, none seriously loaded with special effects, but still should be awesome on the 82.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Thanks tase2. I've been seeing the dark video on analog to HDMI upscaling (ie XBox360 component --> HDMI) and didn't even know it was a known problem! The help desk pointed me to a service center in Media, PA wihch is only about 1/2 hour away from me. I'll drop it off and let Pioneer pay to ship it back to me.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

ah30k said:


> Thanks tase2. I've been seeing the dark video on analog to HDMI upscaling (ie XBox360 component --> HDMI) and didn't even know it was a known problem! The help desk pointed me to a service center in Media, PA wihch is only about 1/2 hour away from me. I'll drop it off and let Pioneer pay to ship it back to me.


First - just tase is fine 

Next, make sure you check with the place in Media that they are totally aware of the problem, have all the latest disks and whatnot from Pioneer, and best of all, check to see if they have performed the upgrade before.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

tase2 said:


> First - just tase is fine
> 
> Next, make sure you check with the place in Media that they are totally aware of the problem, have all the latest disks and whatnot from Pioneer, and best of all, check to see if they have performed the upgrade before.


That is good advice. There is a piece of equipment Pioneer refers to as a "jig" that is needed to perform the upgrade (at least on the 84 - not sure about the others). This device is rare, not made any more (it was used about 5-7 years ago on Pioneer DVD players and hasn't really been used since), and only 20 or so Pioneer service centers actually have one. It consists of a pc board with some cables coming out of it that connect to the receiver and a PC. Not all Pioneer service centers can perform this upgrade - as Tase says, you should check.

Jim H.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

jhimmel said:


> That is good advice. There is a piece of equipment Pioneer refers to as a "jig" that is needed to perform the upgrade (at least on the 84 - not sure about the others). This device is rare, not made any more (it was used about 5-7 years ago on Pioneer DVD players and hasn't really been used since), and only 20 or so Pioneer service centers actually have one. It consists of a pc board with some cables coming out of it that connect to the receiver and a PC. Not all Pioneer service centers can perform this upgrade - as Tase says, you should check.
> 
> Jim H.


I made sure the place I sent mine had the "jig", and they did. I agree, there are very few of these "jigs" in exisitance. I am not too sure how important it is to the process or what it is used for, but if I'm sending it out, I want them to have the "jig". 

I sent mine to 
Sound Surgeon Long Island 
1041 West Jericho Tpke
Smithtown, NY 11787
631-864-2450

I will report back with the findings hopefully by next wekend.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

tase2 said:


> I sent mine to Sound Surgeon Long Island


Funny, Tase - that's who has mine.
I dropped it off on Thursday (in person). I will be away until next Friday which is when I hope to pick it up again. Good luck to you (and me).

Jim H.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

jhimmel said:


> Funny, Tase - that's who has mine.
> I dropped it off on Thursday (in person). I will be away until next Friday which is when I hope to pick it up again. Good luck to you (and me).
> 
> Jim H.


As I have seen written all over this forum
GMTA
(Great Minds Think Alike) 

Good luck with yours, we should compare notes when we are both back in possession of our babies.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

I have plenty of time, but I figured I'd ask what remote(s) 82/84 & S3 users are using?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Harmony 880. 
Controls:
my 84 (except for iPod mode)
S3
Comcast 3412
XM Inno
HD-DVD player
DVD player
CD player
HDTV


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> Harmony 880.
> Controls:
> my 84 (except for iPod mode)
> S3
> ...


And shall I assume you are quite satisfied with it?

No major flaws or problem areas?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Very happy. There's an issue with the 880 that sometimes it takes a bit of effort to get the remote to sit properly in its charging cradle, but it's not that big of a deal.

The remote certainly controls the receiver/TV/S3 with no problems.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> Very happy. There's an issue with the 880 that sometimes it takes a bit of effort to get the remote to sit properly in its charging cradle, but it's not that big of a deal.
> 
> The remote certainly controls the receiver/TV/S3 with no problems.


The truth is (now that I think about it, Doh) is I had an 880, and traded it for an old Sony.

I didn't like the displays. It did not pass the WAF ease of use test.

I did have D* w/ HR10-250 back then, maybe I should give it another look.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

tase2 said:


> Good luck with yours, we should compare notes when we are both back in possession of our babies.


Got it back - all is well.

Jim H.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

I got mine back on Weds.

I have been feeling under the weather all week, and it is still in the box.

I am still not feeling great, so I might just transfer all the comp. and optical connections and connect the speakers just to give it a test run.

Are you thrilled?

Any probelms with the S3?

Any tips?


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

How do you have your S3 and 82/84 and other sources connected?

As I mentioned or not all I have currently is:
S3
82
and Sony DVPNS50 DVD player.

I'm just interested in different options and hearing about how you are connected.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

I have a Pioneer Elite DVD player with HDMI out that I use for DVD's and CD's
I have an S3 with HDMI out, of course.
I have a PC with an ATI HDMI card.
I have a Pioneer 5060HD plasma with HDMI in.

So, for my '84, 3 HDMI in, 1 HDMI out - that's it - all HDMI.

Jim H.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Basement Entertainment Center - Pioneer Surround Receiver (2 HDMI, 3 component, a lot of composite)
*Innies:*
XBox --> HD brick adapter --> component/optical
XBox 360 --> component/optical
S3 --> HDMI 
Karioke (sp?) box --> composite (r/w/y)
IPod --> IPod adapter
*
Outies:*
HDMI from receiver to JVC TV

S3 also runs via 75 ft component/optical to living room entertainment center

Living Room Entertainment Center - Denon Receiver (2 component, a lot of composite)
*Innies:*
S3 long-line --> Component/Optical
S2-DT --> S-Video (I think)
VCR --> composite (r/w/y) (kids still bring public speaking home on tapes)
DVD --> component/optical

*Outies:*
Component to Sony CRT


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Pioneer Elite DVD HDMI out (480i) to Pioneer Receiver in.
Tivo Series 3 HDMI out (native) to Pioneer Receiver HDMI in.

Pioneer Receiver HDMI out (720p) to Samsung DVI in.

There might have been some advantages to using Component out on the Pioneer Elite DVD since I can't figure out how to do letterboxed non-anamorphic DVDs correctly to the Samsung without borders on all four sides. With HDMI input I lose most of the video correction functions on the Receiver, but with Component I get a dark image. I don't have a good way to update the firmware on the Receiver.

Al


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

acvthree said:


> Pioneer Elite DVD HDMI out (480i) to Pioneer Receiver in.
> Tivo Series 3 HDMI out (native) to Pioneer Receiver HDMI in.
> 
> Pioneer Receiver HDMI out (720p) to Samsung DVI in.
> ...


Why do you say that?


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

tase2 said:


> Why do you say that?


My understanding is that updating the firmware can only be done at a few certified locations. I've checked around Dallas and was told that they won't order the equipment until after I bring in the receiver. My research on the web lends me to believe that there is some sort of older, out of production, jig is required and there are only a few left in the US. This all sounds to me like it could take weeks. I don't want to have my system down for that long.

The picture quality for the HDMI is great. My only problem is with non-anamorphic wide screen DVDs. My Samsung TV doesn't zoom on HDMI input so I wish there were some "magic code" I could use with the DV-59AVi to zoom the picture, but I haven't been able to find it.

The VSX-84TXSi has a number of zoom options, but those are dissabled with HDMI inputs. Note that the manual doesn't say this, I down loaded a copy before I purchased, those options just don't appear on the menu for HDMI.

Al


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

acvthree said:


> My understanding is that updating the firmware can only be done at a few certified locations. I've checked around Dallas and was told that they won't order the equipment until after I bring in the receiver. My research on the web lends me to believe that there is some sort of older, out of production, jig is required and there are only a few left in the US. This all sounds to me like it could take weeks. I don't want to have my system down for that long.
> 
> The picture quality for the HDMI is great. My only problem is with non-anamorphic wide screen DVDs. My Samsung TV doesn't zoom on HDMI input so I wish there were some "magic code" I could use with the DV-59AVi to zoom the picture, but I haven't been able to find it.
> 
> ...


Ya I hear you - it would probably at least a week if there is no local service center.

I thought that Pioneer or the dealer might be giving you a problem.


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## simonsaid (Apr 3, 2007)

I am using a tx84, s3 and a sony xbr2 hdmi throughout and it works no problem... on the other hand I had to run cable all the way to the tv to get the DVI-HDMI to work on an older DVI cable box


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

Question

Do any of you still have the ability to use your TV speakers?

If my wife wants to watch the news, say, can she just turn the TV on and watch or do you all need to have your 82/84 on?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

I have my TV speakers off because I use my 84 for sound. I suppose that you could program a Harmony or similar to dynamically switch them on and off...

But why would you want to? A programmable remote can turn everything on at the touch of a button (OK, two buttons)...


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> I have my TV speakers off because I use my 84 for sound. I suppose that you could program a Harmony or similar to dynamically switch them on and off...
> 
> But why would you want to? A programmable remote can turn everything on at the touch of a button (OK, two buttons)...


What I am trying to figure out is how I can do this using HDMI, but not having to turn the receiver on to get video if I wanted to say just watch the news using TV speakers.

Brain Dead so please bear with me. 

So I should run HDMI from Tivo to 82, and 82 to TV (Sony KDF-E42A10 )?

RCA cables from Tivo to TV?

I would need to change Input settings on the TV? HDMI is input setting 6 on my TV (Sony KDF-E42A10 )

I just found a pdf of the manual and it looks like there is Audio L & R associated with input 6, so maybe I don't/won't have to change it 

If I could HDMI from Tivo to 82 and 82 to TV, but still be able to use TV speakers via RCA from Tivo to TV staying on input 6, (without having to power on the 82) my life would suddenly become a lot easier, and happier.
Does this seem like it has a chance to work?

EDIT:That won't work will it? If the 82 were powered off, there would be no video signal coming to the TV. Right?

So I guess I will have to figure out which input # on the TV will accept component video from the Tivo and probably do the audio to that same input #.

I have now totally confused myself.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

That's still not going to work. The Tivo does not output through the component and HDMI at the same time.

The advice from Amnesia is really going to be the easiest, by far, to accomplish. With the programmable remote it would be one button to turn everything on and one button to turn everything off.

Al


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

acvthree said:


> That's still not going to work. The Tivo does not output through the component and HDMI at the same time.
> 
> The advice from Amnesia is really going to be the easiest, by far, to accomplish. With the programmable remote it would be one button to turn everything on and one button to turn everything off.
> 
> Al


That's kinda what I figured, but that way I will need to have the receiver powered on. 

Oh well.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Yea, but even the news will sound better. 

Al


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

You could also get a cheap manual HDMI switch. Whne you want to use componet, switch the HDMI input to the one not in use. You'll have component inputs to the tV and also use the analog TiVo audio outputs to the TV. When you use your receiver, hit the otehr button on the switch. Monoprice has the manual 2x1 switches for under $30.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

acvthree said:


> That's still not going to work. The Tivo does not output through the component and HDMI *at the same time*.
> 
> The advice from Amnesia is really going to be the easiest, by far, to accomplish. With the programmable remote it would be one button to turn everything on and one button to turn everything off.
> 
> Al


I have a Harmony 550 on order.

I have a question about the "at the same time" thing.

Does that mean that if I have HDMI out to receiver that the Tivo will not work at all with components out to TV with the receiver off?

My TV had HDMI as input 6, and Component as input 5.

So if I have the S3 Component out to TV and the TV set to input 5, while at the same time having HDMI out from S3 to receiver and receiver HDMI to TV input 6, would I get full function from the S3 with the receiver off with the TV set to input 5?

If yes, then I can just set up the 550 to change the TV inputs between 5 and 6 depending on whether I want surround or TV speakers.

If no, back to the drawing board.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

I have not run this test, but my understand from reading other entries here is that when the HDMI output on the Series 3 is used then the component output is turned off. You will need to run this test, but I don't believe it would work.

I do believe that S-video does output if the HDMI is connected. Again, you need to test this for yourself.

You would also have to run audio from the S3 to the TV.

I still think you should at least try using the receiver for all your audio. You might just like it if you tried it. If you do like it then you could just use your HDMI all the time.

Al


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

acvthree said:


> I have not run this test, but my understand from reading other entries here is that when the HDMI output on the Series 3 is used then the component output is turned off. You will need to run this test, but I don't believe it would work.


To be clear, the component output will not work if 1) the content is protected AND 2) the HDMI is connected without negotiating 'HDCP Enabled'. Note that this is an *AND* not and *OR*.

Folks have successfully used TVs that are HDMI/HDCP friendly when not in use and have successfully used intermediary devices such as HDMI switches and surround receivers to fake out the HDMI/HDCP protocol.

I'm using a surround receiver that makes dual output very usable. When my basement entertainment center (S3 and Pioneeer surround reciever) is in standby and not being watched, I can get component output. I also get component output when the basement is in use while selecting another surround input such as the XBox. I also get component when the basement is actually being watched on the S3 surround input. Not many use-cases where I have difficulty.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

acvthree said:


> I have not run this test, but my understand from reading other entries here is that when the HDMI output on the Series 3 is used then the component output is turned off. You will need to run this test, but I don't believe it would work.


There have been lots of reports from folks that all outputs operate simultaneously (which I would think includes HDMI and component), and there's been one person without relating any personal experience who said that HDMI and component do not work at the same time.

While I haven't run any tests myself, I know what I believe.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

Excellent. Thanks Guys.

I am waiting for my Oppo 970 & x-series sub to arrive-hopefully this week.

Once everything is in place, I will run all the tests and report my findings.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> There have been lots of reports from folks that all outputs operate simultaneously (which I would think includes HDMI and component), and there's been one person without relating any personal experience who said that HDMI and component do not work at the same time.
> 
> While I haven't run any tests myself, I know what I believe.


I want to say in fact that *YES*, you can have *HDMI and COMPONENT * connected at the same time and they both *WORK* perfectly. :up:


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