# Time Warner won't issue cablecard



## rcraig (Jul 11, 2006)

Hey All,
I only subscribe to Broadcast (local) channels with Time Warner. They refer this as analog cable. Six months ago I upgraded my S2 TIVO to a Premier and when I did the channel scan I found out I also get the digital and HD versions of local channels. I talked to a TW technician and he said that is correct, but they don't advertise it because most people don't have digital tuners. My problem was the channels didn't match the cable guide and Tivo told me I needed a cablecard to map these properly. Well TW said to get a cablecard I needed to subscribe to their digital tier, not broadcast or basic tiers. So, I let it slide and could only manually recorded shows on the HD channels once a show had started.

Two weeks ago I rechecked the channel lineup on TW and they now advertise that the digital and HD versions of local channels are included in the broadcast tier. So I called and they still won't give me a cablecard, but they have changed and will now send cablecards to basic tier subscribers as well as digital tier subscribers, just not broadcast tier subscribers.

Since the advertised package includes digital and HD channels, isn't TW required by FCC regulation to supply a cablecard on request for a nominal fee? They still claim it's analog only stations, and deny I should be getting what is advertised on their site as being included in my package. I have spent hours on the phone with TW to no avail. Tivo CS isn't much help and said "Oh well, if TW won't issue a card, there is nothing we can do to help. There will be a survey at the end of this call..."

So do I have any recourse or is there anything else I can do besides cancelling TW and going OTA? (I am in a deep fringe area with channels in a 34 degree spread, so I'm not sure how well that will work.)

Thanks for any advice!

RCraig


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

You could always try filing a complaint to the FCC. I don't know the rules though when it comes to where and when they must provide a CableCARD or if they are allowed to limit it.

This should be the link.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Since the package includes some digital channels, I am pretty sure they need to provide one. TWC has been a pain about this to many people. The work around (used by some in the past) is to upgrade to a higher package and get the cablecard. Then downgrade the service and keep the cablecard (and the monthly charges of course). I don't know that I would go that route, but it is worth mentioning. Good luck.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

TW tried this tactic with me last year until I called Tivo an we did a thhree way conversation with TW... Somehow the cablecards suddenly "were" available...
It's been a long standing battle with the cable companies. They don't want the end user to have a Tivo. They would prefer you use their tuners which are 20 year outdated devices...

Only a few tchs that have come to my residence even knew what a Tivo is or how to set one up


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## 1999cobra (Nov 10, 2005)

See here about what just happened to me this is an industry tactic - you need to threaten to cancel all services and then see what happens...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=462572


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## jayn_j (Oct 29, 2010)

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.

1999Cobra, I have similar stories. 9 service calls and 5 truck rolls to get cablecard/TA installed properly. At one point the installer is ripping everything out and installing a DVR over my very loud protests.

The main truth is that they are not trained on TIVOs, barely trained on cablecards, and most have never seen a tuning adapter before.


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## 1999cobra (Nov 10, 2005)

jayn_j said:


> Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.
> 
> 1999Cobra, I have similar stories. 9 service calls and 5 truck rolls to get cablecard/TA installed properly. At one point the installer is ripping everything out and installing a DVR over my very loud protests.
> 
> The main truth is that they are not trained on TIVOs, barely trained on cablecards, and most have never seen a tuning adapter before.


Respectfully - I disagree I believe it is intentional, to disrupt, manipulate and wear you down into throwing up your arms and surrendering to their equipment.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

1999cobra said:


> Respectfully - I disagree I believe it is intentional, to disrupt, manipulate and wear you down into throwing up your arms and surrendering to their equipment.


I think it's both. They don't properly teach their techs how to install cable cards, and when they do run into the situation, they try and talk you into their DVR. That's been my personal experience anyway. I was actually offered an entire year free of DVR fees and the box rental if I went with theirs.


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## rcraig (Jul 11, 2006)

I have tried two three way calls with TW and TIVO. The first the TIVO rep never said anything and the TW rep said I had to upgrade. I tried again a few days later and had a TIVO rep who understood the whole problem. This time the TW rep said he could do it so the TIVO rep hung up. Then the TW rep "discovered" the system wouldn't let him and he needed an override code but couldn't get one right then. He said he would email me when it was taken care of which would be within two days. Three days later, surprise! No email. I called again and spent almost two hours talking to three TW reps and got the same story. They claim my package is analog only and doesn't include HD or digital versions of the local channels, so I direct them to their website that shows my package includes HD and digital local channels. I even threatened to cancel, but I don't think they care. So I filed a complaint through the FCC website, but don't really expect to hear anything from that.

My last call was to TIVO and they said, "Oh well, sounds like you have done all you or we can do. There will be a survey..." I did ask for this to be escalated within TIVO, and if I don't here from them I am supposed to call them on Friday.

If this doesn't get me anywhere, I have researched an antenna that should work and will purchase that, install it, then cancel my cable. My stations are in two clusters that are 30 and 60 miles away, but within 34 degrees. The antenna I am looking at is the Winegard HD7698P that is supposed to have a 40 degree path out to 70 miles. Anyone have any suggestions, cautions, or advice on this route?

Thanks,
RCraig


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

At that point, I'd say just upgrade for a month, get the cablecard all set up, then call downgrade as soon as you're sure everything's set up.

It will work where nothing else will - sadly you'll be out the cost of the month (or less, with prorating) upgrade fees - but that's probably less than the cost of a deep fringe antenna and mounting outside.


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## BigDawgy07 (Dec 20, 2005)

I am already on my second truck roll out and I even have the digital tier of service! Good luck with it. TWC does not appear to want you to use a TIVO and cable card. The last guy spent the entire visit telling me how much easier it was to setup their DVR, but then I told him how crappy the performance is with their DVR and he shut up finally.


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## JavaJoe_2 (Jan 1, 2011)

On my truck roll (01/22/11) the tech spent about 8 hours trying to get the CC and the TA "married" and still no luck....what a joke! I also have the full digital tier. The tech only has the hardware, it's the one's that send the signal to the box that don't seem to know what's up. IMO 
I guess they will be back on Wednesday to "try" again......
BTW: this is TWC in Milwaukee, WI.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

The new cableCard rules make it clear that customers with third party equipment must receive the same scheduled programming as customers with cable company equipment. So if broadcast tier customers are provided with cable boxes that receive these digital and HD channels then TW will be required to provide a cableCard. That was unclear before and I'm not sure when that new rule takes effect.

In any case, you should file a complaint with the FCC. They _claim_ that they're going to strictly enforce these new rules.

http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm?sid=&id=d1e650


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Here is the link to the FCC ruling on CableCards, the FCC gave them 9mos to comply:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-10-181A1.pdf

I thought it would be of interest to post TWCs comments to the FCC prior to the new ruling. Which clearly states their blatant arrogance.

*TWC Tells FCC "no legal obligation" to provide SDV to UDCPs*

TWC's comments were a response to the FCC request for comments regarding:

Switched Digital Video (SDV) and it's compatibility with Retail CableCARD HD DVRs and Tuners,
The Tivo proposal for an IP based solution for SDV requests from retail devices, and
The proposal that "if" the FCC determines that cable provider supplied Tuning Adapters are still to be the only and/or preferred method to access SDV programming, That the Tuning Adapter requirements must be mandated to specify that they support the same number of Tuners that the Multi-Stream CableCARDs (M-Cards) are capable of supporting.
Currently the Cisco STA1520 Tuning Adapter is only capable of supporting 2 simultaneous streams, (or Tuners)
In a filling to the FCC, TWC basically states you don't have any legal right to view or record Switched Digital Video content unless you lease their STB/DVR, even though you are already paying for that content. Try calling TWC and asking to not be charged for any SDV channels.

Filing by Time Warner Cable Inc. in 00-67 on 10/07/2010
»http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6016057908


> At these meetings, TWC reiterated its view that there is no sound legal or policy-based reason to impose a "tuner parity" mandate or related requirement, the sole purpose of which would be to expand the specific number of streams of switched digital video ("SDV") programming that UDCPs (ex. TiVo, Moxi, Ceton Infinity4) can record simultaneously.
> .........................
> " cable operators have no legal obligation to ensure that their subscribers can use UDCPs " (ex. TiVo, Moxi, Ceton Infinity4 CableCARD Tuner) " to access SDV programming at all, much less to record multiple simultaneous streams "
> .........................
> ...


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## 1999cobra (Nov 10, 2005)

rcraig said:


> I have tried two three way calls with TW and TIVO. The first the TIVO rep never said anything and the TW rep said I had to upgrade. I tried again a few days later and had a TIVO rep who understood the whole problem. This time the TW rep said he could do it so the TIVO rep hung up. Then the TW rep "discovered" the system wouldn't let him and he needed an override code but couldn't get one right then. He said he would email me when it was taken care of which would be within two days. Three days later, surprise! No email. I called again and spent almost two hours talking to three TW reps and got the same story. They claim my package is analog only and doesn't include HD or digital versions of the local channels, so I direct them to their website that shows my package includes HD and digital local channels. I even threatened to cancel, but I don't think they care. So I filed a complaint through the FCC website, but don't really expect to hear anything from that.
> 
> My last call was to TIVO and they said, "Oh well, sounds like you have done all you or we can do. There will be a survey..." I did ask for this to be escalated within TIVO, and if I don't here from them I am supposed to call them on Friday.
> 
> ...


I had the same problem with my local cable provider (which is very, very, good however they are a co-op, so small scale) in any case I believe they would not set - up my card properly *on purpose*. When I finally came to that conclusion after reading through all the complaints from people here and on other forums. I called them and flat out told them *(and I meant it) *that if they couldn't program my card properly that I was going to cancel their service which includes broadband, telephone and the absolute best programming package they offer. I told them I was going back to DTV and Charter for broadband and upgrading my cell phone to use as a house phone as well.

Well interestingly enough, when they came for the third time after my pronouncement as such ... cable card worked perfectly, plugged it in and whamo everything as it should be, now believe what you want but as far as I'm concerned this was intentional to keep me renting their crappy boxes. We are talking about them loosing over $200 a month in service fees, cable, phone and broadband that's incentive enough don't ya' think


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## rcraig (Jul 11, 2006)

I don't really think they care about my bill - it's only $16.64 a month for local channels. I think that may be why they don't seem to care - for my account it's probably more problems than it's worth for TW to issue a cable card. They probably only offer my package due to local or FCC regulations requiring the local only package in exchange for being the only cable company. I never heard back from TIVO, so I'll call them on Monday and then order my antenna. 

I do wish I could get a cable card. It will take more than a year to recoup the cost of the antenna, mount, booster, and cables, and TW does include a few channels that are out of range of an antenna, so the $16.64 + $2.50 rental for a cable card is worth it to me.


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## arentol (Jan 24, 2011)

Just do as theWGP suggests and upgrade for a month or two, get the card installed, and downgrade. It may be unfair to have to do this, but it will probably be worth it.


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## rcraig (Jul 11, 2006)

Well, I installed an antenna and I now get more channels and a better picture that TW was sending, so I called and fired TW. Within a year the savings from firing TW will pay for the antenna and after that I will be saving money. So I'm happy!

Thanks for your suggestions.
RCraig


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## 1999cobra (Nov 10, 2005)

rcraig said:


> Well, I installed an antenna and I now get more channels and a better picture that TW was sending, so I called and fired TW. Within a year the savings from firing TW will pay for the antenna and after that I will be saving money. So I'm happy!
> 
> Thanks for your suggestions.
> RCraig


Good for you - hooray -

I hate TW (Tight Wads) and Comcrap as well as price goes Directly UpTV after install ...:up:


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## hotscotch (Oct 18, 2005)

I would advise driving to the local TW office and just asking them for one over the counter. Talking to the cue-card driven support staff on the phone is useless. 

I called to order a Cable Card and they wanted to charge me an installation fee of $30 to have a tech come out and read numbers off a screen to the dispatch. It's completely unnecessary. However, they will be adding a $3.00 charge to my monthly bill, which is still cheaper since the monthly box rental was $8.00.

I drove to the local office, asked for a card and they gave it to me over the counter. I went home, plugged it in and called the office to activate it. It works fine. No fuss. No muss.


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## Tivo II Jack (Aug 10, 2003)

I have been a Tivo subscriber for over 10 years now and currently have 5 units with only two in use. I recently bought two Tivo HD units that require cable cards which I can get from Time Warner. I am somewhat proficient with this equipment but find one thing puzzling to say the least.

Let me start with the coaxial cable that brings the TW feed into my home. When I hook it up to my cable box, it delivers a scrambled signal which the box unscrambles and delivers all programming to my Tivo to be recorded or watched live on my TV.

When I ordered the Tivo HD, I was not aware they required cable cards; I thought it was a choice to keep the cable box or install the cards and dump the cable box. Not so and therein lies the puzzle.

All any Tivo can do is record or pass through whatever input it is receiving at the time. If the Tivo thinks it is recording Bluebloods on CBS but while in progress I am switching channels with my Cable remote, the now playing list will show Bluebloods but it will be a mixed recording of what was on each of the channels I had switched to.

If instead of connecting the TW cable directly into the Tivo HD, I leave it connected to the cable box and then connect the HD cable box output to the Tivo HD input, why doesnt the Tivo HD either show or record the already unscrambled input from the cable box?

I am not asking about the pros and cons of using such a setup, there are no pros and dozens of cons, I just can't figure out why it will not produce a viable audio/video output to record or watch.


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## Joey P (Oct 20, 2002)

hotscotch said:


> I would advise driving to the local TW office and just asking them for one over the counter. Talking to the cue-card driven support staff on the phone is useless.
> 
> I called to order a Cable Card and they wanted to charge me an installation fee of $30 to have a tech come out and read numbers off a screen to the dispatch. It's completely unnecessary. However, they will be adding a $3.00 charge to my monthly bill, which is still cheaper since the monthly box rental was $8.00.
> 
> I drove to the local office, asked for a card and they gave it to me over the counter. I went home, plugged it in and called the office to activate it. It works fine. No fuss. No muss.


TW requires a truck roll to install a cable card. You're right, all they have to do is plug it in, make a call and read off the numbers, but they won't let the end user do it. 
Here's something odd about my story though. A few weeks ago, I ordered one. I called on Monday, told them I needed an M-card and a tuning adapter and scheduled the appt for that Friday. On Thursday the the CC and TA showed up via UPS. I hooked up the TA left the CC alone. About a half hour before my appt on Friday the tech called to make sure everything was working okay. I was confused and told him that he was supposed to come and install it. He seemed confused and said that all I had to do was plug it in. This was Friday at 5:15 and not wanting to lose the weekend I asked him to just come down and hook it up. 
30 minutes later he showed up. Made a quick call to his supervisor that sounded like he was double checking what exactly he needed to do (So I just plug it in and then call dispatch etc....he then went on to say "no, customer service told him not to install it himself"**). Hooked it up and everything was good to go. Then he mentioned that while he was out in his truck he checked my signal and noticed it was low and wanted to see where the cable came in. I brought him down to the basement, he replaced a splitter, but that didn't do it so he added a powered signal booster which brought the level up to where he felt it should be. He also noticed the ground loop on my TV and said the new splitter should take care of that. It didn't, but i was impressed that he noticed it.
So, just goes to show, they're not all bad. You always have to remember, it's only a very small percentage of people that have problems. It's just that the people that have no problems don't go singing the praises on message boards, they just move on with life without giving it a second thought.

**When you plug in the CC the TiVo pops up the the CC screen which gives the CC number and a phone number for TWC. Between that and the way the tech called to make sure everything was working, I almost wonder if they expect the more tech savvy customers to attempt installation by themselves and save the tech from having to come out.


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## Tivo II Jack (Aug 10, 2003)

Joey P said:


> A few weeks ago, I ordered one. I called on Monday, told them I needed an M-card and a tuning adapter and scheduled the appt for that Friday. On Thursday the the CC and TA showed up via UPS. I hooked up the TA left the CC alone.


I posted the note just prior to yours and came back when I was notified of a new reply. I am in NYC and TW charges $60 to install CC's and $30 for any additional units. I called TW about this and complained it was highway robbery because I could install the cards myself. Doing so is easier than connecting the cable box to your TV.

Surprisingly I was told they would waive the fee for my two Tivo HD's but they still required they be installed by their people. I believe here the installer brings the cards and tuning adapters with them. Now I have to find out if they might also send them prior to the install date. If so, I can install them myself and then cancel the install appointment.


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## PedjaR (Jan 4, 2010)

Tivo II Jack said:


> I have been a Tivo subscriber for over 10 years now and currently have 5 units with only two in use. I recently bought two Tivo HD units that require cable cards which I can get from Time Warner. I am somewhat proficient with this equipment but find one thing puzzling to say the least.
> 
> Let me start with the coaxial cable that brings the TW feed into my home. When I hook it up to my cable box, it delivers a scrambled signal which the box unscrambles and delivers all programming to my Tivo to be recorded or watched live on my TV.
> 
> ...


The cable straight from the wall outputs all channels, so Tivo can pick the right one to record. The output of the cable box is not all channels, it is just one channel, the one it is currently tuned to; that channel is typically mapped to #3 (that's why you leave TV tuned to channel 3 when feeding it the output of the cable box).


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## Tivo II Jack (Aug 10, 2003)

PedjaR said:


> The cable straight from the wall outputs all channels, so Tivo can pick the right one to record. The output of the cable box is not all channels, it is just one channel, the one it is currently tuned to; that channel is typically mapped to #3 (that's why you leave TV tuned to channel 3 when feeding it the output of the cable box).


Keeping the TV tuned to channel 3 to watch recordings has been the standard since the advent of VCRs in the 70s. I fully understand that and addressed that when I wrote this in my original question:



Tivo II Jack said:


> All any Tivo can do is record or pass through whatever input it is receiving at the time. If the Tivo thinks it is recording Bluebloods on CBS but while in progress I am switching channels with my Cable remote, the now playing list will show Bluebloods but it will be a mixed recording of what was on each of the channels I had switched to.


Everything that follows is based upon the output from the cable box being connected to the input on the Tivo HD unit.

With that in mind, if my cable box is tuned to CBS at 10PM EST on a Friday, it is outputting the show Bluebloods. If the cable box is connected directly to my TV, I will be watching Bluebloods. If it is connected to the Tivo HD unit that is recording, that Tivo should be recording Bluebloods.

I repeat that I know this is not an efficient method of recording with a Tivo; I am just trying to learn why it doesnt even work.

The Tivo HD is set to receive on channel 3, the cable box output is always channel 3. If I dont use the cable that lets the Tivo change the channel on the cable box it should always be recording whatever is showing on the cable box.

If I program the HD DVR cable box with a fairly limited capacity to record Bluebloods at 10PM every Friday and also program the Tivo HD to manually record any channel from 10PM to 11PM every Friday, it should be recording Bluebloods each week. It does not.

If the cable box is set to CBS at 10PM on a Friday and I go into Tivo Central and click on Watch Live TV, I should be watching Bluebloods. That does not happen either.

On another note, I see you are from Cary, NC. I never heard of that place until yesterday, less than 12 hours before you posted this. I am in NYC and many parts of this nation are popular with NYers looking to move away from NYC.

Apparently Cary, NC is one of them. A former fellow worker posted this on a site we use to keep in touch: If you're looking to be near other New York transplants, you might want to consider Cary, North Carolina which is not far from the Raleigh/Durham area. So many New Yorkers have relocated there, they've made the acronym CARY

Are you familiar with that acronym and what it stands for?


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

Tivo II Jack said:


> So many New Yorkers have relocated there, they've made the acronym CARY
> 
> Are you familiar with that acronym and what it stands for?


CARY = Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.

Cary, NC is an affluent, highly educated suburb in the Raleigh-Durham metro area. The tooth-to-head ratio is higher than rural North Carolina and most of the people in Cary aren't screwing their own sisters, so many native North Carolinians get jealous.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

Tivo II Jack said:


> Everything that follows is based upon the output from the cable box being connected to the input on the Tivo HD unit.
> 
> With that in mind, if my cable box is tuned to CBS at 10PM EST on a Friday, it is outputting the show Bluebloods. If the cable box is connected directly to my TV, I will be watching Bluebloods. If it is connected to the Tivo HD unit that is recording, that Tivo should be recording Bluebloods.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you mean by "program the Tivo HD to manually record any channel". It would have to be programmed to manually record NTSC (analog) channel 3 in your scenario.

As I understand it, your cable box should be outputting whatever it's tuned to (assuming it's turned on) onto NTSC (analog) channel 3. If the TiVo is programmed to record whatever is on NTSC channel 3, then you should see it. Are you sure the TiVo isn't looking for ATSC (digital) channel 3?


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

JimboG said:


> CARY = Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.
> 
> Cary, NC is an affluent, highly educated suburb in the Raleigh-Durham metro area. The tooth-to-head ratio is higher than rural North Carolina and most of the people in Cary aren't screwing their own sisters, so many native North Carolinians get jealous.


Thats really funny. Cary will soon have a new nickname, Little Tijuana. The new "up and coming" towns are Apex and Holly Springs. Cary's time has passed and its slowly being overrun with the bad element.

FYI, I find it pretty offensive that you come in here and make a general remark about NC natives. I was born here and Ive lived here most of my life, have all my teeth, an education and a decent job.


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## jayn_j (Oct 29, 2010)

Tivo II Jack said:


> Keeping the TV tuned to channel 3 to watch recordings has been the standard since the advent of VCRs in the 70s. I fully understand that and addressed that when I wrote this in my original question:
> 
> Everything that follows is based upon the output from the cable box being connected to the input on the Tivo HD unit.
> 
> ...


OK, let's try this. The TV has a tuner. The TIVO Has a tuner. The cable box has a tuner. They all will individually tune in the multiple channels coming over the cable. However, those signals are mostly scrambled.

The cable box has a built in decoder to unscramble the signals. A cablecard is in effect the same sort of descrambler. That's all it does, except that it also handles the authorization on which channels to unscramble.

Any one of these tuners (TV, cable, TIVO) will decode the cable signal. However, if you place them in SERIES, then the second one will only receive a signal on channel 3. That is because the first box in line is inputting and decoding the channels and outputting the processed info on channel 3.

Why doesn't this work with TIVO? Because TIVO needs to be able to change the channel on the device that is actually receiving the signal. The way you have it hooked up, that is the cable box. Earlier TIVO units had an IR dongle that could be used to change the channel on an external box, but the modern ones like the premiere have eliminated it. So when you try to program in a channel directly on the TIVO, you are changing the channel to where TIVO thinks the cable signal should be. However since you have the cable box inline, the signal isn't there and it doesn't work.

So, bottom line. Have TWC do a truck roll and install a cablecard. Get rid of the cable box. It will work the way you want it to, and the rest of us won't have to provide explanations that are likely confusing to you. This stuff actually is complicated, and yes, I am sort of a rocket scientist. I design avionics for airplanes.

Best of luck,
Jay


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## Tivo II Jack (Aug 10, 2003)

L David Matheny said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "program the Tivo HD to manually record any channel". It would have to be programmed to manually record NTSC (analog) channel 3 in your scenario.


Where did analog enter the case? The Tivo and cable box are both digital and both HD. In this case, disregarding all the wonderful bells and whistles provided by Tivo, the Tivo unit is simply a recorder and nothing more. It will record whatever input it is receiving.

By any channel I mean if the Tivo is set to record ANY channel at a specific time it will record whatever the cable box is playing at that time. If I set the Tivo to record Deal or No Deal at 10PM on Friday on the Game Show Network but have Bluebloods on CBS playing on the cable box, Tivo should be recording Bluebloods.



L David Matheny said:


> As I understand it, your cable box should be outputting whatever it's tuned to (assuming it's turned on) onto NTSC (analog) channel 3. If the TiVo is programmed to record whatever is on NTSC channel 3, then you should see it. Are you sure the TiVo isn't looking for ATSC (digital) channel 3?


Again, since all units are HD digital, how does analog enter the picture?


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## Tivo II Jack (Aug 10, 2003)

jayn_j said:


> OK, let's try this. The TV has a tuner. The TIVO Has a tuner. The cable box has a tuner. They all will individually tune in the multiple channels coming over the cable. However, those signals are mostly scrambled.
> 
> The cable box has a built in decoder to unscramble the signals. A cablecard is in effect the same sort of descrambler. That's all it does, except that it also handles the authorization on which channels to unscramble.


That is not true; the descrambling is done by the Tivo Unit, not the cable card. The Cable Card identifies your provider and carries the programming information from that provider.

With no cable card and the Tivo connected directly to the incoming cable, it is descrambling the input because I can still record or watch anything on CBS, NBC and ABC, but that is only because scanning through the channels I saw what was where. CBS channel 2 is on channel 2, but ABC and NBC are on channels 772 and 775 here.

I can also record or watch several syndicated channels on other than their designated channels. Of course this leaves the info in the Now Playing and To Do lists totally useless.



jayn_j said:


> Any one of these tuners (TV, cable, TIVO) will decode the cable signal. However, if you place them in SERIES, then the second one will only receive a signal on channel 3. That is because the first box in line is inputting and decoding the channels and outputting the processed info on channel 3.


Fine, then shouldnt the Tivo be recording or playing whatever the cable box is outputting at any given time?



jayn_j said:


> Why doesn't this work with TIVO? Because TIVO needs to be able to change the channel on the device that is actually receiving the signal. The way you have it hooked up, that is the cable box. Earlier TIVO units had an IR dongle that could be used to change the channel on an external box, but the modern ones like the premiere have eliminated it.


OK, that may be part of the answer I am looking for. I have been using Tivo for over 10 years and currently own my original series 1, two series 2 and two Tivo HD units. With the series 2 with the dongle even if the dongle was just dangling, Tivo thought it was changing the channel. With the cable card missing, Tivo knows it isnt changing the channel and also doesnt even know who your provider is.

I dont remember if I ever just manually tuned to a channel with the Tivo remote when I tried connecting the cable output to the Tivo input, but thats not important anyway.

The only thing missing is why there is not a simple throughput that allows us to either watch or record whatever input it is receiving, such as the unscrambled output from the cable box.

Now that I have pleasantly responded to your pleasant suggestions, lets move on to the Condescending is as condescending does section.



jayn_j said:


> So, bottom line. Have TWC do a truck roll and install a cablecard. Get rid of the cable box.


Apparently you missed the following:



Tivo II Jack said:


> I am not asking about the pros and cons of using such a setup, there are no pros and dozens of cons, I just can't figure out why it will not produce a viable audio/video output to record or watch.





Tivo II Jack said:


> I repeat that I know this is not an efficient method of recording with a Tivo; I am just trying to learn why it doesnt even work.


And finally:



jayn_j said:


> It will work the way you want it to, and the rest of us won't have to provide explanations that are likely confusing to you.


You didnt HAVE TO do anything, you CHOSE to. You CHOSE to as many of the faux high and mighty do when they see an opportunity to blow their own horn. You know nothing about me or what I do or what I know, but you believe this is rocket science that only the rest of us understand and is surely too confusing for me. [/QUOTE]



jayn_j said:


> This stuff actually is complicated, and yes, I am sort of a rocket scientist. I design avionics for airplanes.


And I am certain that all such designers are also Tivo experts. I have a friend who works in the computer industry and is an absolute WIZARD with computers but doesnt know SQUAT about Tivo. I am also awestricken by your 5 months experience here in Tivo Community.

And now Mr. rocket scientist, tell me again how my Tivo HD cannot descramble a signal without a cable card as I sit back and watch NCIS in glorious HD on my cable cardless Tivo HD unit.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

Tivo II Jack said:


> Where did analog enter the case? The Tivo and cable box are both digital and both HD. In this case, disregarding all the wonderful bells and whistles provided by Tivo, the Tivo unit is simply a recorder and nothing more. It will record whatever input it is receiving.
> 
> By "any channel" I mean if the Tivo is set to record ANY channel at a specific time it will record whatever the cable box is playing at that time. If I set the Tivo to record Deal or No Deal at 10PM on Friday on the Game Show Network but have Bluebloods on CBS playing on the cable box, Tivo should be recording Bluebloods.


If you could tell your TiVo Premiere that you want it to use a dongle to record from a cable box (set to a fixed channel or maybe using red/white/yellow A/V inputs), then you could connect the cable box to it that way, and it should work as you suggest. But TiVo HD and TiVo Premiere have only RF inputs for antenna and cable, and they don't do dongles. The only way the cable box can send anything to a Premiere is by modulating it as an NTSC (analog) signal or encoding it as an ATSC (digital) signal. I'm not familiar with your cable box, but it is unlikely to have an ATSC encoder since that would probably cost several times the price of a TiVo. So the cable box will be sending out whatever channel (analog or digital) it's tuned to as an NTSC (analog) signal on (usually) channel 3, just like VCRs do. If the TiVo is to see that generated signal, it must be tuned to analog channel 3 (usually). Having no dongle, the TiVo assumes that it needs to set its tuner to the channel it sees in the program guide, not the (fixed) channel being output by the cable box.



Tivo II Jack said:


> I have been using Tivo for over 10 years and currently own my original series 1, two series 2 and two Tivo HD units. With the series 2 with the "dongle' even if the dongle was just dangling, Tivo 'thought' it was changing the channel. With the cable card missing, Tivo knows it isn't changing the channel and also doesn't even know who your provider is.


I'm not familiar with Series 1 or Series 2, but if they had a dongle there must have been some way to tell them that a cable box was being used and therefore they should always record a certain fixed channel (or A/V input?) since the real tuning was being done by the cable box being controlled by the dongle. Right? TiVo HD and TiVo Premiere can't do that. They don't do dongles. They always tune to the channel found in the program guide.



Tivo II Jack said:


> I don't remember if I ever just manually tuned to a channel with the Tivo remote when I tried connecting the cable output to the Tivo input, but that's not important anyway.


It's only important if you want to see the signal being generated by the NTSC modulator in the cable box. Just for the heck of it, please try tuning the TiVo manually to NTSC (analog) channel 3 (or whatever channel your TV is tuned to when you can see the output of the cable box on it for a scrambled channel like HBO).



Tivo II Jack said:


> And now Mr. rocket scientist, tell me again how my Tivo HD cannot descramble a signal without a cable card as I sit back and watch NCIS in glorious HD on my cable cardless Tivo HD unit.


I'm not the rocket scientist, but presumably NCIS is on an HD channel that is unscrambled because over-the-air channels must be made available free of charge. Channels like HBO are probably scrambled and would thus require use of a cablecard.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

The RF output of your cable box on 'channel 3' is an NTSC analog, standard definition signal much degraded from the digital signal the box recieved. There are NO cable boxes that output a digital ATSC signal. Would be very convienient if they did, Tivo too as it would make whole house distribution of HD video much easier. The components to do this exist but are still very expensive.

Series 3 and newer boxes do not control external tuners or cable boxes, it was a paradigm shift from the series 2 and before. The newer boxes only record from thier internal tuners, both analog and digital.

Hope this helps shed some light on the subject.


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## jayn_j (Oct 29, 2010)

Hey Jack,

If you know all the answers, why bother to ask the questions? TROLL!

No intention to be condescending. Your questions seemed to indicate a basic misunderstanding of how it worked. As for details of decrypting, your understanding is also wrong. The cablecard also downloads and stores the individual keys to decrypt the encoded datastream. Without those keys, a decoder is useless. The whole point is a public and private key system which are delivered by seperate delivery mechanisms. That provides the security. If it were a simple switch to authorize channels, it would be very easy to create a hack to open a box to pirating.

However, if a 5 year old asks me why the sky is blue, I don't go into a long discussion of refractive indices. Your question seemed to show some basic misunderstanding of how digital cable works, so I tried to simplify.

As for the rest, you were already being argumentative with people who were trying to help. I probably should have just stayed away.

The 5 month thing was uncalled for. Yep, only had a TIVO a short time, but have been playing on other cable and satellite forums since '97.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Tivo II Jack said:


> And now Mr. rocket scientist, tell me again how my Tivo HD cannot descramble a signal without a cable card as I sit back and watch NCIS in glorious HD on my cable cardless Tivo HD unit.


Because none of the channels are scrambled. They are encrypted. By law, none of the local channels can be encrypted. That is why you can watch NCIS on CBS. But the cable company reserves the right to encrypt all the others channels. Depending on your cable system, some, most, or all of the other channels will be encrypted.

As a previous poster said, cable boxes don't work with an S3 Tivo or newer (including the Tivo HD). There has been a major change in how the Tivos work. They can no longer control separate cable boxes. If you want to get the other cable channels, you'll most likely need a CableCard to decrypt the other channels. Your cable company (TWC) will charge you a monthly fee for it, and they will insist on installing it themselves.

You may also need a Tuning Adapter to receive some of the channels, which should be provided free of charge.


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## christlab (Jun 15, 2006)

i just got off the phone with time warner cabel (southern cali) and they are bringing me a card tomorrow =)


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