# Heroes 5-7-07 "The Hard Part" *Spoilers*



## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

Here we go....


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

I'm starting to think that Sylar has split personality disorder! The whole scene with Sylar, his mom dead on the floor, Hiro and Ando was just really psycho. He was able to just, WAY too easily, flip his emotions around!


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## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm going to feel a little ripped off if this entire season comes down to some cute little girl introduced in the third-to-last episode...


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

This was definitely a setup episode, not much actually happened. I am fairly sure that the reason that Linderman needs Mica is to rig the electronic voting machines to make sure that Nathan wins the election.


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## emandbri (Jul 5, 2004)

lambertman said:


> I'm going to feel a little ripped off if this entire season comes down to some cute little girl introduced in the third-to-last episode...


but she wasn't introduced in the third to last episode, Matt saved her in the second episode.


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

Ok, did Sylar break Hiro's time freeze or did Hiro loose his nerve and unfreeze time himself?


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## naiLS1 (Aug 19, 2005)

Does anybody have a good explanation as to how Sylar wasn't affected by Hiro stopping time?

Maybe I'll have to watch it again---did Sylar's mom finish falling before or after Sylar caught Hiro's sword? Did Hiro accidentally unfreeze time before his sword hit Sylar?


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

I thought Sylar was really never frozen and just pretending.


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## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

I wonder if Sylar became unfrozen the moment Hiro's sword touched him.


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## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

Emily - Didn't think about that until just now...

Don't think that the little girl is the key to all of this. Remember, Bennett mentioned that there was a better tracking system that the isotopes. I think that the quote was "They know where you are at all times." Molly's ability was that she can make anyone appear at any time just by thinking about them...

I think that Sylar was frozen and that Hiro lost his concentration.

All in all - very good episode... 2 more to go this season.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

cheerdude said:


> Emily - Didn't think about that until just now...
> 
> Don't think that the little girl is the key to all of this. Remember, Bennett mentioned that there was a better tracking system that the isotopes. I think that the quote was "They know where you are at all times." Molly's ability was that she can make anyone appear at any time just by thinking about them...
> 
> ...


was it make anyone appear or she can find where they are? I thought it was the latter


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

cheerdude said:


> Emily - Didn't think about that until just now...
> 
> Don't think that the little girl is the key to all of this. Remember, Bennett mentioned that there was a better tracking system that the isotopes. I think that the quote was "They know where you are at all times." Molly's ability was that she can make anyone appear at any time just by thinking about them...
> 
> ...


I thought that Sylar was frozen by Hiro but once the sword touched him he absorbed Hiro's ability and started time again.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

serumgard said:


> I thought that Sylar was frozen by Hiro but once the sword touched him he absorbed Hiro's ability and started time again.


If all Sylar needed to do was touch the people, he could have saved himself a lot of skull-cutting...


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

pdhenry said:


> If all Sylar needed to do was touch the people, he could have saved himself a lot of skull-cutting...


Oh...riiiiiiiiight. This is why I try to avoid these threads.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Molly said she could tell where people are.

I think Sylar was frozen until the sword touched him, then the freeze ended. Either because the sword was touching him, or because Hiro lost his concentration or whatever he does to freeze time.

I have to agree this was more of a setup for what's to come and in itself this episode was comparatively boring.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Did I catch the statement right that there are 2 episodes left, but both are next Monday?

The announcement at the end of the show made it sound that way.

Regardless, I enjoyed the episode. It put people into the places that they need to be for the big finish, and it answered just a few more questions along the way. Not the best, but still quite good.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bdowell said:


> Did I catch the statement right that there are 2 episodes left, but both are next Monday?
> 
> The announcement at the end of the show made it sound that way.
> 
> Regardless, I enjoyed the episode. It put people into the places that they need to be for the big finish, and it answered just a few more questions along the way. Not the best, but still quite good.


Yeah, that announcement was confusing. My TiVo for next week shows only one episode at 9 PM Eastern, so I think they meant to say two hours left STARTING next week.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Ma Petrelli is HEAVILY involved with Linderman and Primatech, so obviously she knows that Peter has to be sacrificed for half the city to blow up. Makes one wonder: Is she sacrificing Peter or is Peter not even her son?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

bdowell said:


> Did I catch the statement right that there are 2 episodes left, but both are next Monday?
> 
> The announcement at the end of the show made it sound that way.


There are two episodes left. Next week is a one-hour episode; the following week is the 2-hour season finale.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

cheerdude said:


> Don't think that the little girl is the key to all of this. Remember, Bennett mentioned that there was a better tracking system that the isotopes. I think that the quote was "They know where you are at all times." Molly's ability was that she can make anyone appear at any time just by thinking about them...


More specifically, HRG called this system "The Walker System." Molly's last name is Walker. That was a big OMG moment for me when I put those 2 together.

HRG's plan is to destroy a little girl, whether he realizes it or not.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

I'm pretty sure that Sylar and his mom both unfroze just as Hiro raised the sword to strike. You could see Sylar look toward him and then the mom started to fall.

I just took it that Hiro lost his concentration when he worked up the nerve to swing the sword.


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

serumgard said:


> I thought that Sylar was frozen by Hiro but once the sword touched him he absorbed Hiro's ability and started time again.


Good point! If that's true, he really doesn't need to cut open people's heads! He may be more like Peter than we previously thought, he's just psycho and likes killing people!


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

Ok. lemme get this right...the company want's to blow up 1/2 of NYC to help Nathan have a better shot at being pres? I'm thinking Micah's got that covered with the whole manipulating machine's thing. And please don't tell me that a man as powerful and connected as Linderman is doesn't know about the company and that those two haven't gotten together yet and somewhat compared note's in some way. Maybe Linderman's just CYA'ing everything with both Micah and the big bang. If Molly can tell where people are, and she's obsessed with 'the boogeyman' (which she seem's to be), won't she still know that Sylar's really Nathan in the future? This is of course assuming that she doesn't get whacked. Ok, I guess I'm just kinda tired and have all these question's left..I need resolution MAN!!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Sylar was not frozen even before the sword touched him--or at least, the actor was not in freeze-frame, which I assume is significant. Otherwise, they would have used freeze-frame (as they always have in the past when Hiro freezes time) instead of just having him stand stock-still.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Billyh1026 said:


> Ok. lemme get this right...the company want's to blow up 1/2 of NYC to help Nathan have a better shot at being pres?


No, the point of nuking NYC is that it's a significant enough event to get the world off its destructive track and make some real progress towards everyone coming together in peace; and it'll only take the sacrifice of 0.7% of the world population to make it come to fruition. Having Nathan be President will place him in a position to help that process along; the nuke event being a tool for him to bring the world powers together.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sylar was not frozen even before the sword touched him--or at least, the actor was not in freeze-frame, which I assume is significant. Otherwise, they would have used freeze-frame (as they always have in the past when Hiro freezes time) instead of just having him stand stock-still.


Maybe they just found the shot easier to do with sylar not in freeze frame.

the shot went - mom freezes a nd so does sylar, Hiro walks in and walks up to sylar. we hear the heartbeat which is more the cue that sylar picked up on, then sword touches sylar; sylars's eye moves then Mom drops, sylar grabs sword and says "that Heartbeat, you were the person in the studio"

so either it is concentration or else sylar broke it. Hiro sure looked scared and got out right away with no more effort to freeze time, that is for sure

PS - the end promo began - "over the next two Mondays"


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Sadara said:


> Ok, did Sylar break Hiro's time freeze or did Hiro loose his nerve and unfreeze time himself?





naiLS1 said:


> Does anybody have a good explanation as to how Sylar wasn't affected by Hiro stopping time?
> 
> Maybe I'll have to watch it again---did Sylar's mom finish falling before or after Sylar caught Hiro's sword? Did Hiro accidentally unfreeze time before his sword hit Sylar?





MikeMar said:


> I thought Sylar was really never frozen and just pretending.





WinBear said:


> I wonder if Sylar became unfrozen the moment Hiro's sword touched him.





serumgard said:


> I thought that Sylar was frozen by Hiro but once the sword touched him he absorbed Hiro's ability and started time again.






dswallow said:


> I think Sylar was frozen until the sword touched him, then the freeze ended. Either because the sword was touching him, or because Hiro lost his concentration or whatever he does to freeze time.


Come on guys, use that TiVo remote to back up a few seconds and watch again. 



cheerdude said:


> I think that Sylar was frozen and that Hiro lost his concentration.





stalemate said:


> I'm pretty sure that Sylar and his mom both unfroze just as Hiro raised the sword to strike. You could see Sylar look toward him and then the mom started to fall.
> 
> I just took it that Hiro lost his concentration when he worked up the nerve to swing the sword.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sylar was not frozen even before the sword touched him--or at least, the actor was not in freeze-frame, which I assume is significant. Otherwise, they would have used freeze-frame (as they always have in the past when Hiro freezes time) instead of just having him stand stock-still.


And we have our winners! A big :up: for clearing it up. Thanks guys.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Overally a pretty uneventful episode, but it really sets the stage for some great action. I'm in the camp that says Hiro lost his concentration. Had nothing to do with Sylar's powers. Also, Sylar doesn't absorb powers just by proximity or touch. 

So now that Peter absorbing Ted's power, he is going to want Claire to shoot him. It'll be interesting to see what happens there.

What was the point of DL and Niki/Jessica snooping around Linderman's art studio? Did we ever see them again?

I guess the question about Candace is cleared up. Not only can she appear to be whoever she wants, but she can manipulate what others see all around her. Considering that Micah kept going into different doors and they all appeared to be the same apartment, Candace's powers seem to be a little more extensive than just what's directly around her. She wasn't even in the room when he was doing that.


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## jpwoof (May 19, 2004)

where did Sylar get his freezing power?


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

jpwoof said:


> where did Sylar get his freezing power?


I was under that assuption that Sylar has been running around cutting off heads for a while, and we have only seen some of them.

Z


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Man I love this show. I loved seeing a different side of Sylar. I loved seeing Hiro's moral "hero" dilemna-a true comic book hero would have it. I loved seeing how Ted and Peter came together. Next weeks should be great!


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## lodica1967 (Aug 5, 2003)

emandbri said:


> but she wasn't introduced in the third to last episode, Matt saved her in the second episode.


Thank you! I told my daughter the same thing. She didn't think it looked like the same girl.

I had to explain to her the odds of Silar killing two sets of families with little girls escaping... I eventually won.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

jpwoof said:


> where did Sylar get his freezing power?


He's had it since almost the beginning. In the same episode (#2) when Molly Walker was fouind hiding in the wall, her father was frozen and his skull was open. Sylar either got the power from him and decided to test it, or already had it.


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## bpurcell (Mar 16, 2005)

Excellent setup episode for the finale! I liked seeing a bit of what Sylar's childhood was probably like. His mother was definitely out there enough to mess her kid up. It was also good to add another dimension to Sylar's personality and give him a little humanity. I can definitely see his motivation to blow up New York now.

Peter absorbing the nuclear ability was a great dramatic moment. It's a great way to show the audience that the end is close.

The next two weeks are going to be great. And did everyone see the return of an important character in the preview?



Spoiler



Does Hiro's father have a new sword or is it the broken one fixed? And does he have a power as well?


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## Uncle Briggs (Sep 11, 2004)

emandbri said:


> but she wasn't introduced in the third to last episode, Matt saved her in the second episode.


Nice catch


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Do we know that Hiro can affect objects other than moving them around when time is stopped? It might be that he needs to let time resume in order to actually pierce Sylar with his sword.

Of course, this time he let time resume way too early because of nervousness and lack of skill, but given what the comic shows, either Sylar gains Hiro's power or Hiro can't kill him when time is stopped. I'm thinking it's the latter.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

dswallow said:


> No, the point of nuking NYC is that it's a significant enough event to get the world off its destructive track and make some real progress towards everyone coming together in peace;


...which, of course, is complete lunacy. But hey, that's why they're the bad guys.

Anyway, great ep.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

It was only slow by the standard of recent episodes, but a great setup for the finale.
But Hiro's sword is broken now.


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## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

Changing the subject rather drastically... Is Nathan really so self-absorbed/selfish/focussed that it hasn't occurred to him that Linderman might be able to heal his wife, Heidi? I would have thought that was a great bargaining chip. Through the election, it is helpful that he has a beautiful wife who is paralyzed from the waist down. At what point in his career is it safe for his wife to be miraculously healed and for his bastard daughter to be claimed?


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

devdogaz said:


> OWhat was the point of DL and Niki/Jessica snooping around Linderman's art studio? Did we ever see them again?


They're on their way to New York. This ain't 24 ya know! 

Put me in the "Hiro lost focus" camp, definitely.

I too really wonder what the big plan with blowing up New York is. I guess I just don't see the upside. I mean obviously they don't know what we know about the 5 year future, but how else do they think people will react when one of the "heroes" blows up the city? Of course they won't trust any of them again--surely they're not going to make Lindermann so stupid about human nature that he doesn't realize that. The only thing I can figure is that no one is supposed to know that it was a nuclear man, and they'll blame someone else (with a conventional bomb), and then the heroes will come out of hiding to fight the terrorists... that don't really exist.


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## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

Did anyone else catch the _Little Shop of Horrors_ reference when Sylar's mother wished she could go to Oregon because everything's green?


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

One thing I would bet the farm on right now. NYC will NOT blow up!

This is not a comment on the events in the show so far, but more a reflection on the objectives of the writers. If the city did blow, it would almost be saying that 9/11 was a good thing and of course we all know that it wasn't. So, this means that somehow, Hiro and the other heroes will succeed.

I also think that as the comic book has Hiro killing Sylar two days later, there are bound to be a couple of failed attempts in the process.

Molly Walker stated that she could tell the location of anyone in the world, not move them anywhere. As stated previously, she is an "echo-locator" and (as far as we know) can't bring them in.


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

I know this, when it comes out on DVD, I gotta rewatch it. I swear I cannot keep up with all the detail this show gives out each episode!!


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## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

Jagman_sl said:


> Did anyone else catch the _Little Shop of Horrors_ reference when Sylar's mother wished she could go to Oregon because everything's green?


Seen the movie ... but didn't catch the reference.

Who played Sylar's mom?


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

cheerdude said:


> Seen the movie ... but didn't catch the reference.
> 
> Who played Sylar's mom?


Audrey.... And Audrey II was the plant.


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## Mikkel_Knight (Aug 6, 2002)

Sadara said:


> I know this, when it comes out on DVD, I gotta rewatch it. I swear I cannot keep up with all the detail this show gives out each episode!!


Allegedly August 28th baby!!! Marathon on Labor Day weekend!! Woo Hoo!!


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Jagman_sl said:


> Did anyone else catch the _Little Shop of Horrors_ reference when Sylar's mother wished she could go to Oregon because everything's green?


I missed that one, but caught Peter's mention of "Kirby Plaza" (or was it "Kirby Square"?) in NY - a nod to Jack Kirby, no doubt.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I thought it was pretty obvious that Molly Walker was the girl Matt saved in the beginning. Especially when HRG's (ex)boss was telling Mohinder about the girls parents being murdered by Sylar and showed him the pics. But when they said she had an amazing ability and she could possibly stop Sylar, I thought her ability would be to disable to powers of others. I guess kinda like the Hatian, but I was thinking more like that kid from X-Men 3. That somehow they would use her to permenately disable the Heroes. How is she suppose to stop Sylar just by finding him. We've already got a couple of people (Hiro and Ando) that don't seem to have any problem finding Sylar.


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## SleepyBob (Sep 28, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> I thought it was pretty obvious that Molly Walker was the girl Matt saved in the beginning. Especially when HRG's (ex)boss was telling Mohinder about the girls parents being murdered by Sylar and showed him the pics. But when they said she had an amazing ability and she could possibly stop Sylar, I thought her ability would be to disable to powers of others. I guess kinda like the Hatian, but I was thinking more like that kid from X-Men 3. That somehow they would use her to permenately disable the Heroes. How is she suppose to stop Sylar just by finding him. We've already got a couple of people (Hiro and Ando) that don't seem to have any problem finding Sylar.


She isn't supposed to stop Sylar. That's just a red herring to get Suresh to heal her so they can have their Walker system running for their own purposes after the NY explosion.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

SleepyBob said:


> She isn't supposed to stop Sylar. That's just a red herring to get Suresh to heal her so they can have their Walker system running for their own purposes after the NY explosion.


Hmmm, I think you're exactly right. I somehow missed that too.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

So Candace really has been underutilizing her powers after all until this episode. Glad that was cleared up.

How did sylar hear the heart beat if he was frozen? It would have sounded like about 30 instant thumps.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> So Candace really has been underutilizing her powers after all until this episode.


I wouldn't call it 'underutilizing' -- she just does what she has to do to fool whoever she needs to fool. I'd say she has utilized them just the right amount.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> How did sylar hear the heart beat if he was frozen? It would have sounded like about 30 instant thumps.


Just rewatched it online (pretty easy--they've divided the episode into parts--probably at commercial breaks--and their player allows you to skip without waiting to buffer).

He didn't hear it until after time had unfrozen. I now agree that Hiro lost concentration. It wasn't when he touched Sylar with the sword. It was after that, when he drew all the way back for the final swing. At the same time you see his mother (and her blood) fall and hear the heartbeat.


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## RickStrobel (Jan 19, 2000)

SleepyBob said:


> She isn't supposed to stop Sylar. That's just a red herring to get Suresh to heal her so they can have their Walker system running for their own purposes after the NY explosion.


Did Suresh really fall for it? Isn't he smart enough to figure out that just being able to locate Skylar isn't enough to kill him? Or, did they not tell him her abilities -- she told him herself, so the big bosses don't know that he knows?

Maybe Suresh is just playing them - and instead gave the girl some kind of placebo. Although, judging by how gleeful he was as he was administering the treatment I'm not so sure.


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## dimented (May 21, 2003)

I wish Hiro would update his blog. Guess he hasn't been able to get to a computer lately.


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## Deffdino (Sep 21, 2005)

madscientist said:


> I too really wonder what the big plan with blowing up New York is. I guess I just don't see the upside. I mean obviously they don't know what we know about the 5 year future, but how else do they think people will react when one of the "heroes" blows up the city? Of course they won't trust any of them again--surely they're not going to make Lindermann so stupid about human nature that he doesn't realize that. The only thing I can figure is that no one is supposed to know that it was a nuclear man, and they'll blame someone else (with a conventional bomb), and then the heroes will come out of hiding to fight the terrorists... that don't really exist.


- If the master plan was to just get Nathan in the Oval Office, they would have him run for president and rig _that_ election. Linderman's scheme is to ostracize all 'heroes' with the nuclear blast. (Probably for his own benefit)

1 observation and 1 question...

I half-expected Ted Sprague to tell Peter 'to relax', once his hands were burnin' up.

My question - Did we ever learn what the relationship was between the eclipse and most of the heroes discovering their powers at approximately the same time?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

I didn't remember that it was the same girl from eight months ago. Good memory. I was under the impression that they were going to use her blood disorder to permanently disable Sylar. 

I don't think I understand how the destruction of millions of people will lead to greater peace throughout the world. We've not seen Heroes in Europe. Hiro/Ando are from Japan but they haven't been back there since the first or second episode. What makes Linderman Inc think that Europe/Asia will care one way or the other if millions of Americans get killed in an explosion.


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## MFruchey (May 25, 2006)

BitbyBlit said:


> Do we know that Hiro can affect objects other than moving them around when time is stopped? It might be that he needs to let time resume in order to actually pierce Sylar with his sword.


He can definitely affect objects while time is stopped. Remember him cheating at poker in Vegas?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

MFruchey said:


> He can definitely affect objects while time is stopped. Remember him cheating at poker in Vegas?


Yeah, but that was just moving things around. The question is, can he damage anything when time is stopped, or are objects effectively indestructible?


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> Yeah, but that was just moving things around. The question is, can he damage anything when time is stopped, or are objects effectively indestructible?


how would it make any sense that he can move stuff but CAN'T put a sword in the gut of someone?

That doesn't make any sense to me.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

Jagman_sl said:


> Did anyone else catch the _Little Shop of Horrors_ reference when Sylar's mother wished she could go to Oregon because everything's green?


Anyone catch the Clark Kent/Superman reference with Sylar in studio listening to Hiro's and Ando's hearts?

With his slicked back hair and glasses looked like Kent then took off the glasses to focus on the heartbeats......

reminded me of CK/Big Blue Boy scout.

Craig


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## MFruchey (May 25, 2006)

BitbyBlit said:


> Yeah, but that was just moving things around. The question is, can he damage anything when time is stopped, or are objects effectively indestructible?


Sorry. I completely misread your post.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> how would it make any sense that he can move stuff but CAN'T put a sword in the gut of someone?
> 
> That doesn't make any sense to me.


I agree. Stabbing someone is just a specific instance of 'moving stuff around'


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## DeludedBuzz (Dec 6, 2001)

Billyh1026 said:


> Ok. lemme get this right...the company want's to blow up 1/2 of NYC to help Nathan have a better shot at being pres? I'm thinking Micah's got that covered with the whole manipulating machine's thing. And please don't tell me that a man as powerful and connected as Linderman is doesn't know about the company and that those two haven't gotten together yet and somewhat compared note's in some way. Maybe Linderman's just CYA'ing everything with both Micah and the big bang.


Linderman is the Company. That's why after Nathan called Linderman, HRG's former boss shows up in his office.


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

So I was under the impression before this episode that Petrilli mom was a good guy...but it now seems she is in with "The Company"


Do you think the "virus" that Suresh was working on in the future came from the little girls illness?


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

What virus? I got the impression the syringe contained nothing but some sort of poison.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

MasterCephus said:


> So I was under the impression before this episode that Petrilli mom was a good guy...but it now seems she is in with "The Company"
> 
> Do you think the "virus" that Suresh was working on in the future came from the little girls illness?


Why is there a distinction between good guy and "The Company" that makes them polar opposites? Sacrificing a few for the greater good doesn't make them bad. Wouldn't you kill 10 people for the chance to save 1000? They might be wrong and making a mistake, but that doesn't mean they're not trying to do good.


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## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

Clearly Mama Petrelli is in cahoots with Linderman and so is "The Company." Immediately after Nathan called Linderman, Eric Roberts shows up.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

ping said:


> What virus? I got the impression the syringe contained nothing but some sort of poison.


He was working on an "antidote" that would stop the powers of the Heros. It makes sense that he used her "virus" as a base for his "antidote."

The syringe with poison in it was to kill Peter/The Haitian. Different than the "antidote" he was talking to Nathan/Sylar about.


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## Falke (Nov 12, 2003)

WinBear said:


> Clearly Mama Petrelli is in cahoots with Linderman and so is "The Company." Immediately after Nathan called Linderman, Eric Roberts shows up.


Or that wasn't Mama Petrelli at all, Candance is in New York with Micha, one call from Linderman and Candance could have gone to see Nathan and make sure he stays with the program.

Jason


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

I'm pretty sure it wasn't Cand*ice*.

There's obviously a seniior thing going on here with Linderman, Eric Roberts, Hiro Senior and Mama Petrelli.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

MikeMar said:


> how would it make any sense that he can move stuff but CAN'T put a sword in the gut of someone?
> 
> That doesn't make any sense to me.


It doesn't make any less sense than the fact that Hiro can breathe when time is stopped. Air movement is apparently a special case with Hiro's (and most time-stopping) powers.

However, we have seen liquids and gasses frozen in place when Hiro stopped time. What would happen if Hiro took his sword and sliced through a blob of time-frozen coffee that was in midair? It wouldn't react like a liquid because if the coffee did react like a liquid when time was stopped, it wouldn't be frozen in midair.

But if the coffee reacted like a solid, how solid would it be? Would it be like cutting through butter or cutting through diamond? To me, anything less than indestructible is just arbitrary.

What if Hiro threw his sword at a glass window? How would the window shatter? Shattering requires the movement of time. Plus, from the window's frame of reference, it would either get hit with an infinite force or feel nothing at all. I'm leaning towards the "nothing at all" side, and thinking that objects don't "feel" anything that Hiro does to them when time is stopped, thus making them effectively indestructible to Hiro when he stops time.

Now, I'm not saying that the writers need to make Hiro's powers scientifically accurate. After all, we are talking about a show about people with superpowers. My point is only that not allowing Sylar to be killed when Hiro stops time does not make any less sense than allowing him to be. And, forcing Hiro to resume time gives Sylar and any other enemy that Hiro faces a fighting chance without having to give them Hiro's powers.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> I don't think I understand how the destruction of millions of people will lead to greater peace throughout the world. We've not seen Heroes in Europe. Hiro/Ando are from Japan but they haven't been back there since the first or second episode. What makes Linderman Inc think that Europe/Asia will care one way or the other if millions of Americans get killed in an explosion.


Linderman explained it a couple of eps ago. When millions of people in NYC die, it will cause the people of the world to realize that they need to put aside their differences and unite against terror and violence. As the junior congressman from NYC, Nathan Petrelli will be the great leader and great uniter. The universal love and respect he will gain due to his actions after the bomb will get him appointed VP, and then he'll become president.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

johnperkins21 said:


> Why is there a distinction between good guy and "The Company" that makes them polar opposites? Sacrificing a few for the greater good doesn't make them bad. Wouldn't you kill 10 people for the chance to save 1000? They might be wrong and making a mistake, but that doesn't mean they're not trying to do good.


Well, they need to stop swiping plans from The Outer Limits


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> I didn't remember that it was the same girl from eight months ago. Good memory. I was under the impression that they were going to use her blood disorder to permanently disable Sylar.
> 
> I don't think I understand how the destruction of millions of people will lead to greater peace throughout the world. We've not seen Heroes in Europe. Hiro/Ando are from Japan but they haven't been back there since the first or second episode. What makes Linderman Inc think that Europe/Asia will care one way or the other if millions of Americans get killed in an explosion.


People around the world cared about the destruction of New Orleans and islands of Thailand and India. I am sure that a nuclear bomb in NYC would give people around the world pause and garner sympathy. They may wonder if they are next for rational or irrational reasons. Plus, it is "written" in the drawings isn't it?


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

> Why is there a distinction between good guy and "The Company" that makes them polar opposites? Sacrificing a few for the greater good doesn't make them bad. Wouldn't you kill 10 people for the chance to save 1000? They might be wrong and making a mistake, but that doesn't mean they're not trying to do good.


I think we as a society would have to agree that killing 1 million+ people to save the rest of the world is bad. They are clearly doing things in a "bad guy" way as far as TV shows go.

Just because you are trying to do good doesn't make you not a bad guy...


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## Kevdog (Apr 18, 2001)

Probably a dumb question, but if Peter can absorb the powers of someone just by standing near them, why hasn't he absorbed Hiro's ability to teleport and stop time?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Kevdog said:


> Probably a dumb question, but if Peter can absorb the powers of someone just by standing near them, why hasn't he absorbed Hiro's ability to teleport and stop time?


Has he ever been near Hiro? Last night he came into contact with Claire, Ted, and Matt (and HRG) but I don't remember a scene with Hiro and Peter. Eight months worth of episodes is clouding my memory.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Sirius Black said:


> Has he ever been near Hiro? Last night he came into contact with Claire, Ted, and Matt (and HRG) but I don't remember a scene with Hiro and Peter. Eight months worth of episodes is clouding my memory.


Future Hiro did come back and talk to him on the Subway but that was before Peter really felt confident about his powers. I don't know if they've been together any other time.

Also, I believe Future Peter had Hiro's power but I don't remember specifically when he used it.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

Theres a bit of controversy about whether his stoping the taser dart (in Unexpected) was time stop or telekinesis. Officially at heroeswiki they are considering it time stop.

Future Peter definitely stopped time (during an attack at Primatech).


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Hiro's ability comes with great exertion and concentration on his part. It's easy for him to be distracted and lose the ability. Ted's ability is sort of the opposite - Ted almost has to concentrate NOT to blow up.

As hard as it is from Hiro to break space-time I'd be willing to conclude that Peter just hasn't tried hard enough. Didn't future Peter show some of Hiro's powers in the 5 years ahead episode?


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> It doesn't make any less sense than the fact that Hiro can breathe when time is stopped. Air movement is apparently a special case with Hiro's (and most time-stopping) powers. <snip>


Ok so if he stabs Sylar, Sylar won't die then, but when time unfreezes he will have a massive sword wound in him!

You are reading WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much into the freezing thing.

Hiro freezes time, he can move stuff around, we have no reason to think he couldn't have killed Sylar right then, but he either lost concentration or Sylar snapped out of it somehow and restarted time.

that's it.


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

ping said:


> Theres a bit of controversy about whether his stoping the taser dart (in Unexpected) was time stop or telekinesis. Officially at heroeswiki they are considering it time stop.
> 
> Future Peter definitely stopped time (during an attack at Primatech).


I would say that it was TK, because if I remember correctly, they were coming at him, stopped, then fell to the ground. If it was time stop, they shouldn't have just fallen to the ground.


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

I gotta say, I'm with bitby on thing being indestructible while time frozen. 

Isn't the density of an object/substance determined by the relative motion of the atoms that comprise it? If the atomic motion stopped, then the density would theoretically become infinitely dense, which would in turn imply indestructibility.

However, what if Hiro went into "bullet time" like he did when he stole the fake sword from the museum?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

I'm glad to hear that you guys are experts in the physics of objects while they have been time-stopped by a super hero


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## FuzzyDolly (Dec 29, 2002)

Sadara said:


> I'm starting to think that Sylar has split personality disorder! The whole scene with Sylar, his mom dead on the floor, Hiro and Ando was just really psycho. He was able to just, WAY too easily, flip his emotions around!


Maybe he acquired Jessica/Nikki's power?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

stalemate said:


> Future Hiro did come back and talk to him on the Subway but that was before Peter really felt confident about his powers. I don't know if they've been together any other time.
> 
> Also, I believe Future Peter had Hiro's power but I don't remember specifically when he used it.


oh, that's right... I'd say he'll have the power when he needs it. Creative license.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

MasterCephus said:


> I think we as a society would have to agree that killing 1 million+ people to save the rest of the world is bad. They are clearly doing things in a "bad guy" way as far as TV shows go.
> 
> Just because you are trying to do good doesn't make you not a bad guy...


What? Why? What logical excuse can you have that says killing 1 million people to save 6 billion is bad?

What about Peter? Is he bad too because he wants to kill one person to save 1 million? Motive is definitely the determining factor as to whether or not your are good or bad.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

johnperkins21 said:


> What? Why? What logical excuse can you have that says killing 1 million people to save 6 billion is bad?
> 
> What about Peter? Is he bad too because he wants to kill one person to save 1 million? Motive is definitely the determining factor as to whether or not your are good or bad.


yeah, if you could guarantee that the world would be at peace if you killed a million people, I would do it in a heartbeat! it's the IF that's the problem though, of course


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> yeah, if you could guarantee that the world would be at peace if you killed a million people, I would do it in a heartbeat!


Your opinion might change if you are some of the people you care about were part of the million.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

johnperkins21 said:


> What? Why? What logical excuse can you have that says killing 1 million people to save 6 billion is bad?
> 
> What about Peter? Is he bad too because he wants to kill one person to save 1 million? Motive is definitely the determining factor as to whether or not your are good or bad.


But are they really doing it to save 6 billion people, guaranteed? Or are they just looking to shape the future into one they want, which they _think_ will save people?


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

RickStrobel said:


> Maybe Suresh is just playing them - and instead gave the girl some kind of placebo. Although, judging by how gleeful he was as he was administering the treatment I'm not so sure.


I don't see why Suresh shouldn't want to heal the girl: he wants to find Sylar as much as anyone. In fact, if you recall, his whole deal with the Company is that he'll help them as long as they destroy Sylar. Plus, of course, the girl reminds him of his sister (that he never knew) etc.


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## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

i have a question, how could that little girl stop sylar? (esp if her powers are to locate people). but i forgot that she was the same little girl from the beg. of the season, good observation

the question that needs answering is this, what action will lead to saving the world?

the most logical choice is save the world = saving nyc

but 

from last weeks episode, it seems that nathan/sylar becoming president is the end of the world, with his policies against those with "special abilities"

so if the bomb does go off, i wouldn't be surprised.. either way this show is great and the best writing ive seen since Alias season 1


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

stalemate said:


> Your opinion might change if you are some of the people you care about were part of the million.


if you could guarantee that the world would basically be saved! I would do it, but obviously there is no way to guarantee that.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> if you could guarantee that the world would basically be saved! I would do it, but obviously there is no way to guarantee that.


I mean though, if someone said to you "I can save the world, but I need to blow up a whole bunch of your family members to do it" you would probably think he was a "bad guy."


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

stalemate said:


> I mean though, if someone said to you "I can save the world, but I need to blow up a whole bunch of your family members to do it" you would probably think he was a "bad guy."


yeah, like i said, since there is no possible way to guarantee it, i would think he was a whack job!


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

MikeMar said:


> if you could guarantee that the world would basically be saved! I would do it, but obviously there is no way to guarantee that.


There are many forms of "saved". "Saved" is sometimes very subjective. A member of the Nationalsozialist Party during the 1930s might have said that Hitler was trying to "save" Germany by implementing his "reforms".

I'd say the world is better off with those 1 million people than without them.

Edit: Spelling correction


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

MikeMar said:


> You are reading WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much into the freezing thing.


I'm not reading into Hiro's time-stopping power at all. The only point of my explanation was to illustrate that having objects be indestructible doesn't make any less sense than letting Hiro have a free-for-all. I wasn't saying that that was how Hiro's powers had to work because it was the most "scientifically accurate". Given what we already know of Hiro's powers, there is no point in trying to be scientifically accurate. Hiro's abilities will be based on what the writers feel makes sense for the story.

From a story perspective, making time-stopped objects indestructible forces Hiro to resume time at least some of the time while attacking his enemies. The writers could have other ways of handling that, though, such as giving Hiro a code of honor such that he never kills anybody when time is stopped.

However, future Peter walked through the wall to save Hiro and Ando before stopping time rather than stopping time, then coming in. Perhaps that was just for dramatic effect, or perhaps the writers have already decided that objects are very solid when time is stopped.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Have we heard the name Gabriel Grey before?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> I'm not reading into Hiro's time-stopping power at all.


is time stopped or is Hiro just stepping out of time? The rabbit hole can go pretty deep with such analysis.

BTW - with more thought on it I agree that Hiro lost his concentration and was back in "normal" time with Sylar again


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> Have we heard the name Gabriel Grey before?


Those of us who saw "Six Months Ago" have


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

MasterCephus said:


> So I was under the impression before this episode that Petrilli mom was a good guy...but it now seems she is in with "The Company"
> 
> Do you think the "virus" that Suresh was working on in the future came from the little girls illness?


There's got to be some sort of division between Linderman, Mama Petrilli, and "The Company" (Eric Roberts.) Otherwise, Mama P would have turned Claire over to "The Company" several episodes ago.


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## RickStrobel (Jan 19, 2000)

If Mama Petrelli really is in on the plan (and it wasn't Candice) will she be able to follow through? She may have been willing to let Peter be sacrificed before. Now that she's already experienced his "death" once she may get cold feet.


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

stalemate said:


> I'm glad to hear that you guys are experts in the physics of objects while they have been time-stopped by a super hero


Once in college, I was having a relatively serious discussion about physics and things related to that, when he said, "now, most of my knowledge comes from comic books, but...."


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## cyke93 (Jan 29, 2004)

Hiro stopped time, but when he went to attack sylar, his heart rate rose and he lost concentration, thus unfreezing time.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

stalemate said:


> I'm glad to hear that you guys are experts in the physics of objects while they have been time-stopped by a super hero


 What, you aren't??????


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

> What? Why? What logical excuse can you have that says killing 1 million people to save 6 billion is bad?


It's not a logical excuse. In this show, there is no reason to believe that killing all of those people changes the future for the good. In fact, the viewers have seen the future and it's not better...in fact it leads to more deaths.

It seems that Linderman wants all the people with abilities to be removed from the world...probably except for himself.

I would classify by what we have seen as "The Company" as being bad.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

NJChris said:


> What, you aren't??????


Actually, I'm going to go with "yes I am"


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## Mr. Belboz (Dec 3, 1999)

drew2k said:


> Ma Petrelli is HEAVILY involved with Linderman and Primatech, so obviously she knows that Peter has to be sacrificed for half the city to blow up. Makes one wonder: Is she sacrificing Peter or is Peter not even her son?


Why does Peter have to die in order to cause the nuclear explosion?

The nuke guy can generate large amounts of radiation and such and have no ill effects from it on himself. Why could he not generate a nuclear level explosion and survive this? It would just destroy everything around him (albeit quite a bit of stuff!).


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

MasterCephus said:


> I think we as a society would have to agree that killing 1 million+ people to save the rest of the world is bad. They are clearly doing things in a "bad guy" way as far as TV shows go.
> 
> Just because you are trying to do good doesn't make you not a bad guy...


What if it could be guaranteed 100% for sure that killing 4 million people would definitely bring an end to terrorists, fighting, wars, hunger, et. al., amongst everyone remaining. Would you sacrifice those 4 million people then?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

dswallow said:


> What if it could be guaranteed 100% for sure that killing 4 million people would definitely bring an end to terrorists, fighting, wars, hunger, et. al., amongst everyone remaining. Would you sacrifice those 4 million people then?


Only if I got to pick which 4 million.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

MasterCephus said:


> It's not a logical excuse. In this show, there is no reason to believe that killing all of those people changes the future for the good. In fact, the viewers have seen the future and it's not better...in fact it leads to more deaths.
> 
> It seems that Linderman wants all the people with abilities to be removed from the world...probably except for himself.
> 
> I would classify by what we have seen as "The Company" as being bad.


You're assuming that it's worse. The future we have been shown is after the bomb. What of the future before these events were set in motion? Is it possible that that future is even more heinous? Their motives are good. You seem to be thinking that life is important and failing to see how incredibly inconsequential human life actually is.

I believe the creators have explicitly said that there is not necessarily good or bad in this show, only shades of gray that change based on perspective.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

busyba said:


> Only if I got to pick which 4 million.


That would be a big bonus, wouldn't it?


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## RickStrobel (Jan 19, 2000)

MasterCephus said:


> It seems that Linderman wants all the people with abilities to be removed from the world...probably except for himself.


Linderman's plan included Petrelli being president, not Sylar. In the future it was Sylar as president that wanted to eliminate all the Heroes. Just a continuation of what he's been doing all along.

It was interesting in how they made Sylar just a tiny bit likable. He was really upset about killing innocents. He didn't mind killing "specials" because in his sick way he though he was doing good by eliminating them. But you can throw all that out the window now that he's killed his mom - the ***** has hit the fan.


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## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> Have we heard the name Gabriel Grey before?


I'm pretty sure that is Sylar's real name which we learned in the episode where Dr. Chandra Suresh visited him in his watch repair shop.

Sylar was the brand of watch he was working on.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I still say Sylar wasn't ever frozen.

This would be a VERY odd time for them to experiment with using a method other than freeze-frame to show frozen people.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I still say Sylar wasn't ever frozen.
> 
> This would be a VERY odd time for them to experiment with using a method other than freeze-frame to show frozen people.


When Hiro enters the room, I can tell no difference between the way Sylar is shown vs the way Sylar's mom is shown. They both look frozen in the same way.

In fact, I just now rewatched the scene and I can detect no motion from Sylar before his eye moves to look at Hiro. This moment coincides with when Sylar's mom finishes her fall to the floor.

I still think he was frozen.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I still say Sylar wasn't ever frozen.
> 
> This would be a VERY odd time for them to experiment with using a method other than freeze-frame to show frozen people.


I'm just happy we have something easier to pick apart than time travel.


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## Deffdino (Sep 21, 2005)

Deffdino said:


> Did we ever learn what the relationship was between the eclipse and most of the heroes discovering their powers at approximately the same time?


I'm gonna pose this one more time..


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

> I still say Sylar wasn't ever frozen.


How would sylar know to look frozen and replicate Hiro's powers?


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Sylar WAS frozen in time. He had to be. It was the break in Hiro's concentration that freed him. How else were Hiro & Ando able to "disappear" without Sylar detecting them?


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Deffdino said:


> I'm gonna pose this one more time..


I think it's going unanswered because it's never been addressed. It seemed like they were trying to make a connection between the release of powers and the eclipse at the beginning of the season, but more and more it seems like it may have been more of a metaphor. It's clear that many had powers before the eclipse, but some of the language used by "The Company," Linderman, and mama Petrilli make it seem as if there could be some sort of generational gap in humans showing powers that preceded all of our current heroes. That's more of a guess than anything, though.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Matter can't be indestructible when hiro freezes time. Otherwise he'd be unable to move because the air around him would be "indestructible".


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

WinBear said:


> I'm pretty sure that is Sylar's real name which we learned in the episode where Dr. Chandra Suresh visited him in his watch repair shop.
> 
> Sylar was the brand of watch he was working on.


Yes. Gabriel is Sylar's real name. He grabbed the name Sylar from one of the watches he was repairing.

As far as the whole kill a million to save six billion thing. I would NEVER agree to it even if it was a 100% sure thing. Why? Because who would get to pick those million? If any group of people think their badass enough to be the ones to pick that New York has to go in order for their to be world peace, they sure aren't the kind of people I would trust...and in the end, it's just not goign to work out. You're going to have people that resent that it was their families that were picked to be sacrificed, and when you have resentment and hate that's sure to eventually lead to a revolution of sorts. It sure doesn't sound very peaceful to me. I mean, if having a city go nuclear is all it takes for world peace, why didn't we have world peace after WWII.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

unicorn, your logic doesn't make sense to me. If it's a 100% sure thing then all of your trust issues and why didn't it work after fat man and little boy stuff don't apply. Unless you operate on a scale from 1 to 110%.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Ma Petrelli is HEAVILY involved with Linderman and Primatech, so obviously she knows that Peter has to be sacrificed for half the city to blow up. Makes one wonder: Is she sacrificing Peter or is Peter not even her son?





RickStrobel said:


> If Mama Petrelli really is in on the plan (and it wasn't Candice) will she be able to follow through? She may have been willing to let Peter be sacrificed before. Now that she's already experienced his "death" once she may get cold feet.





Mr. Belboz said:


> Why does Peter have to die in order to cause the nuclear explosion?
> 
> The nuke guy can generate large amounts of radiation and such and have no ill effects from it on himself. Why could he not generate a nuclear level explosion and survive this? It would just destroy everything around him (albeit quite a bit of stuff!).


Well it took from Post # 18 to Post #103 before someone finally picked up on my question about "sacrifice"... 

Linderman told Nathan that Peter must be sacrificed in the explosion. Since Mama P. seems to be buddies with Linderman, and Mama P. is telling Nathan that the explosion has to happen, I'm going out on a limb with the transitive property that Mama P. knows Peter is being sacrificed.

Some have speculated that it wasn't Mama P. speaking to Nathan, but it was Candace, but I don't believe so. I think Mama P. really thinks Peter needs to be sacrificed to explode NY so that Nathan can "save NY" and be "a guiding light", which leads to "saving the world" through the changes the world undergoes after the explosion. I can only think that Mama P. loves the rest of the wold more than she loves her son Peter ...


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> is time stopped or is Hiro just stepping out of time? The rabbit hole can go pretty deep with such analysis.


I'm gong to regret asking this, BUT, if he were completely outside of time, wouldn't the world turn completely black, as the light waves/photons would stop too? If they didn't stop, how are they being generated and bouncing off the objects for Hero to see those objects?

You have to love the limitations of this stuff!


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## Granny (Mar 29, 2005)

And what are Mama P's special powers? She told Nathan there is plenty about her he doesn't know. And both of her sons have powers. Stands to reason she would too. ??


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

If it were a 100% sure thing and I had to pick, I would pick the 4 million oldest people in the world. Yes, that would be upsetting to many families, including mine (since my grandmother is over 100 and so very likely would be included, and another grandmother is 92--don't know if she would be included or not). But it's the fairest thing that you could do, I expect.



RickStrobel said:


> Linderman's plan included Petrelli being president, not Sylar.


Exactly! And this just goes back to my question I posed much earlier in this thread: what exactly is Linderman's plan? I just don't understand how he expects to go from blowing up New York to doing away with terrorism/violence/etc. It doesn't work that way and surely Linderman is enough of a student of human nature to understand that! The only thing blowing up the city will do is unite people _against_ their foe... who are the heroes since they blew up the city! It will lead to MORE violence, at least against the common enemy. Maybe that's his plan: to get rid of the heroes. Or maybe he is totally naive (lame!). Or maybe he doesn't anticipate that people will find out the bomb was actually a person.

Maybe a lot of things, all of which are lame to greater or lesser extents... but you'd think by now the show would have given us some hints on this.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

madscientist said:


> If it were a 100% sure thing and I had to pick, I would pick the 4 million oldest people in the world. Yes, that would be upsetting to many families, including mine (since my grandmother is over 100 and so very likely would be included, and another grandmother is 92--don't know if she would be included or not). But it's the fairest thing that you could do, I expect.


My grandmother will be 102 next week.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

madscientist said:


> If it were a 100% sure thing and I had to pick, I would pick the 4 million oldest people in the world. Yes, that would be upsetting to many families, including mine (since my grandmother is over 100 and so very likely would be included, and another grandmother is 92--don't know if she would be included or not). But it's the fairest thing that you could do, I expect.


Personally, I'd say take the 4 million youngest people before the 4 million oldest. Then again, I'm rational.

In any case, they don't get to choose who they take other than whomever is in the general vicinity when the bomb goes off. The fact that "The Company" believes this will help humanity puts them in the gray area between good and evil where over 99.7% of the population live (the other .3% being evil).


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

You could kill 4 million to save 1 billion, but maybe one of those 4 million will eventually be the person who saves 5 billion!?

It's all a crapshoot.

How does Linderman/The Company know that a nuclear bomb will explode in NY? They haven't "contracted" anybody out to do it. We pretty much think it's Peter/Sylar/Ted. How do they know? Isaac's paintings that Linderman was collecting?

I still think that the bomb going off in NY has nothing to do with saving the world. In fact, without Peter saving Claire, there is no bomb in NYC. How could there be? Ted going to NY is a direct result of Mr Bennett helping Ted & Parkman find the little girl, but I don't think he has any reason to help them if Sylar kills Claire.

Without Ted in NYC, Sylar or Peter or Ted himself can't blow up NYC.

I think not letting Sylar get Claire's healing abilities, and Hiro killing Sylar is what saves the world, by not allowing Sylar to become Nathan Petrelli.

I don't necessarily think that there needs to be an explosion in NYC to make Nathan President, we all know how that can happen. Anywhere down the line, Sylar as Nathan can fake some disaster and save people's lives in order for the country to get enamored of him. It could be 50 people, he would be a folk hero.

-smak-


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

smak said:


> You could kill 4 million to save 1 billion, but maybe one of those 4 million will eventually be the person who saves 5 billion!?


What if one of those 4 million is Hitler? Huh? HUH?!?!?


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## catfan64 (Mar 7, 2002)

devdogaz said:


> So now that Peter absorbing Ted's power, he is going to want Claire to shoot him. It'll be interesting to see what happens there.


They immediately realized that this was what was happening to Peter. They said "absorbing", not absorbed, as in it was still occurring as they spoke.

How much intelligence does it take, to tell Ted to get away from Peter??????
I realize there are a billion and one possibilities that this might not have an effect, but it sure would have been worth a chance. I was yelling this at the TV almost immediately!


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

catfan64 said:


> They immediately realized that this was what was happening to Peter. They said "absorbing", not absorbed, as in it was still occurring as they spoke.
> 
> How much intelligence does it take, to tell Ted to get away from Peter??????
> I realize there are a billion and one possibilities that this might not have an effect, but it sure would have been worth a chance. I was yelling this at the TV almost immediately!


Yeah, that was a little frustrating. All I really needed was one of them to say, "Ted, get away from him!" Just some sort of acknowledgement, even if somewhat shocked at the time, that it might not be such a good thing.


----------



## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sylar was not frozen even before the sword touched him--or at least, the actor was not in freeze-frame, which I assume is significant. Otherwise, they would have used freeze-frame (as they always have in the past when Hiro freezes time) instead of just having him stand stock-still.


I don't believe you're correct about their never having used actors stand stock still before. I'm not one to examine such scenes very carefully myself, but I do recall reading an interview somewhere in which the producers explicitly stated that they've used the actors-standing-still method to save on production costs. (This was months ago, before half the episodes had aired.) They've clearly used photos and greenscreens in some scenes (like Hiro and the exploding car that they've shown repeatedly in promos and intros), but sometimes that's just too expensive, particularly if they want to have the camera track Hiro or something.



jpwoof said:


> where did Sylar get his freezing power?


AFAIK this has never been revealed, but we have seen the effects at least once before: One of Molly Walker's parents was frozen in an early episode. There was speculation at the time that this might have been a specialized application of Sylar's telekinetic ability, but a distinct power is certainly plausible, too.



bpurcell said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Does Hiro's father have a new sword or is it the broken one fixed? And does he have a power as well?





Spoiler



He has the ability to mend broken swords. 





WinBear said:


> Is Nathan really so self-absorbed/selfish/focussed that it hasn't occurred to him that Linderman might be able to heal his wife, Heidi?


Nathan's motivations and true loyalties still seem foggy to me. He could have been convinced by Linderman or seduced by the promise of becoming President; he might be playing along with Linderman, waiting for an opportunity to do the right thing; or something else. One "something else" that's occurred to me is that Linderman might have promised Nathan that he'd heal Heidi, which is why Nathan is going along with Linderman.

re: Peter stopping the taser darts on the rooftop...



sean67854 said:


> I would say that it was TK, because if I remember correctly, they were coming at him, stopped, then fell to the ground. If it was time stop, they shouldn't have just fallen to the ground.


I seem to recall that the wires attached to the taser darts froze, too. If Peter had just used TK, the wires would probably have drooped. I interpreted it as being a time-freeze followed by TK to stop the darts and a time-unfreeze.



unicorngoddess said:


> As far as the whole kill a million to save six billion thing. I would NEVER agree to it even if it was a 100% sure thing. Why? Because who would get to pick those million?


Part of the problem with this discussion, and with the presentation of this moral dilemma in the show, is that we don't really know the alternatives. We've got a pretty good idea of one: NYC goes boom, resulting in the world uniting to round up people with powers and either lock them up or have them serve the state. Linderman focused on the "world uniting" bit in his pitch to Nathan, and seems to think this is worth a 0.07% loss (=4 million dead). We don't know, with certainty, what the alternative world is, though, and as far as we know, neither does Linderman. It's conceivable that it would be better or worse; in all probability it could be either, depending on your measures of "better" and "worse." For instance, the alternative might involve fewer deaths over a 5-year period but more deaths over a 10-year period (because of another superpower gone wrong or even an unrelated event, such as a new plague or warfare).



madscientist said:


> what exactly is Linderman's plan? I just don't understand how he expects to go from blowing up New York to doing away with terrorism/violence/etc. It doesn't work that way and surely Linderman is enough of a student of human nature to understand that! The only thing blowing up the city will do is unite people against their foe... who are the heroes since they blew up the city! It will lead to MORE violence, at least against the common enemy.


People really need to go back and review Linderman's speech to Nathan a couple of episodes ago. His plan is to do just as you suggest: Unite the world against those with special powers. Not only are the 0.07% expendable in Linderman's view, but so are those who'll be hunted down afterwards. (Presumably he expects to elude capture, expects to sacrifice himself, or knows that he's about to die of some other cause and so isn't troubled by the personal implications of such a hunt.)

FWIW, I interpret Linderman's plan as not so much a master plan to engineer an explosion, etc., but as a plan to latch onto fated events. That is, I can imagine Linderman receiving Isaac's mushroom cloud painting, and presumably other clairvoyant information about the explosion, and deciding that he can use this fated event to rally the world. AFAIK, there's no evidence that Linderman set things up initially to create the explosion, although he may be working to see that it happens. What we have seen is evidence that he wants to recruit people who he believes will be important in the future, such as Nathan, so that they'll do what he wants them to do, filling in the gaps in his knowledge of the future in ways he finds agreeable.

Incidentally, I strongly suspect that Isaac's paintings aren't Linderman's only source of information on the future. He's just got too detailed an understanding of future causes and effects to have gotten it all from a few dozen paintings. I don't think it's critical that the show reveal any additional sources Linderman might have, although it's possible they will.


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

catfan64 said:


> They immediately realized that this was what was happening to Peter. They said "absorbing", not absorbed, as in it was still occurring as they spoke.
> 
> How much intelligence does it take, to tell Ted to get away from Peter??????
> I realize there are a billion and one possibilities that this might not have an effect, but it sure would have been worth a chance. I was yelling this at the TV almost immediately!


Haven't you learned that every episode with a final cliffhanger scene will be revisited in the next episode, and then be put in perspective.


----------



## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Is D.L. the brother of Hawkins on Jericho? On the file in Linderman's vault, it said "D.L. Hawkins". So maybe D.L. is another Super-Hawkins and saves the world. LOL


----------



## Mr. Belboz (Dec 3, 1999)

drew2k said:


> Well it took from Post # 18 to Post #103 before someone finally picked up on my question about "sacrifice"...
> 
> Linderman told Nathan that Peter must be sacrificed in the explosion. Since Mama P. seems to be buddies with Linderman, and Mama P. is telling Nathan that the explosion has to happen, I'm going out on a limb with the transitive property that Mama P. knows Peter is being sacrificed.
> 
> Some have speculated that it wasn't Mama P. speaking to Nathan, but it was Candace, but I don't believe so. I think Mama P. really thinks Peter needs to be sacrificed to explode NY so that Nathan can "save NY" and be "a guiding light", which leads to "saving the world" through the changes the world undergoes after the explosion. I can only think that Mama P. loves the rest of the wold more than she loves her son Peter ...


Doesn't really answer my question though. Why do we have to assume that going nuclear kills Peter or nuclear guy (Ted?). We saw him almost go boom at Claires house and he is fine.

Why can't the nuclear explosion blast out from his body, but do no harm to him?

Seems unlikely Claire's ability absorbed into Peter or Sylar would help someone who goes poof into a nuclear explosion. Shouldn't be anything left to regenerate.


----------



## RickStrobel (Jan 19, 2000)

Mr. Belboz said:


> Why do we have to assume that going nuclear kills Peter or nuclear guy (Ted?).


I thought that Peter can go nuclear without dying. Remember in the "future" episode where he tells Nikki that he killed all those people. Later on when he confronts Sylar, Sylar is pissed that Sylar was blamed for the explosion when it was actually Peter.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Has anyone considered that Linderman maybe wasn't so truthful about his actual plan? Maybe the only way he could convince Nathan and others (even within the Company) to go along was to _claim_ he was doing it all to unite humanity? There's no real reason to believe such an event would unite humanity, but there _is_ reason to believe a explosion that kills a million people could bring about a climate where it's easier to enact laws to exert more control than in an entirely free society. We've seen it happen just the other week.

I don't think we've seen any attempt by the show so far to establish that they're living in such dangerous times that such drastic means have to be taken. Sure, the viewers of the show may think of global terrorism, hunger and wars, but none of that was significantly pointed out during previous episodes.

The only problem is that Nathan would be harder to control after it becomes apparent that Linderman's so called plan didn't actually work. Unless the future Nathan in the Oval Office we've seen in drawings was actually Candice in disguise.

Speaking of which, I never had any doubt that Ma Petrelli in that last scene was actually another case Candice impersonation.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Here's an interesting suggestion: When Ted & Peter meet at Kirby Square, why don't both of them leave New York that very instance? They have to assume that Sylar doesn't have his nuke fingers yet and they could at least avoid either of them going up in the middle of NYC.

Of course, they know about the Walker system and probably think running is pointless.


----------



## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

jschuur said:


> Speaking of which, I never had any doubt that Ma Petrelli in that last scene was actually another case Candice impersonation.


It's definitely an interesting thought. If not, then the plot seems to be going a similar way to "The Manchurian Candidate." "The Mutant Candidate" perhaps?


----------



## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

im surprised no one has mentioned why sylar didn't cut his hand by grabbing the sword. 

that sword is probably razor sharp.

any ideas besides bad writing?

so now that we know the extent of candace's powers, does that explain why we could see sylar impersonating nathan on tv in the future? i don't think it does.

well we did learn something new. peter doesn't need to touch anyone to absorb their powers.

i agree that mama p's actions don't jive with the companys. we know lienderman is involved in running the company since one episode eric receives a phone call from lienderman at the company. we also know that hiro's father is part of the company.

but why would mama p hide claire and have the hatian working on the inside? 

and why and why in the world would she be shoplifting and get caught? that is just slopping writing. it is either a pitiful attempt to distract us from her being a central character, or the writers decided at a later point to make her more important.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

johnperkins21 said:


> I believe the creators have explicitly said that there is not necessarily good or bad in this show, only shades of gray that change based on perspective.


Yes, and isn't it ironic that Syalr's real name is "Grey"?


----------



## Royster (May 24, 2002)

I think we have to take a much longer view about "saving the world". If these people with abilities are popping up all over the world, there must be other governments out there collecting and planning on using their own "heroes" for their own purposes. Sylar is a huge threat to Linderman's long term plan because he's culling the herd and collecting the powers for himself. Sylar either needs to come under Linderman's control or be killed.

Ultimately, "saving the world" needs to involve dealing with the rest of the world's "heroes". I see a whole bunch of future seasons just out of that.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

wprager said:


> Yes, and isn't it ironic that Syalr's real name is "Grey"?


I don't think there is even a hint of "grey" in the actions of Sylar. He's a murderer. He didn't kill in self-defense or in a time of war. He killed for personal gain. That's "murder" in my book and he cannot be redeemed no matter what he does. He is the Voldemort of the Hero world. There is no redemption for one so evil as him.


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## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

RickStrobel said:


> Later on when he confronts Skylar, Skylar is pissed that Skylar was blamed for the explosion when it was actually Peter.


It's Sylar, not Skylar. Sorry, that one just grates worse than most character name misspellings.



jschuur said:


> Unless the future Nathan in the Oval Office we've seen in drawings was actually Candice in disguise.


The two paintings we saw of Nathan in the Oval Office (one by Isaac, one by Sylar, both apparently the same scene) both turned out to be Sylar in disguise. As I noted in my earlier post, though, I believe Linderman has other clairvoyant sources, and so he's got a good idea of how to manipulate Nathan (and others) to get what he wants.


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## MFruchey (May 25, 2006)

johnperkins21 said:


> Personally, I'd say take the 4 million youngest people before the 4 million oldest. Then again, I'm rational.


Great. Now we're killing infants. _That's_ going to be popular!


----------



## RickStrobel (Jan 19, 2000)

srs5694 said:


> It's Sylar, not Skylar. Sorry, that one just grates worse than most character name misspellings.


Do'h! I was thinking Sylar the whole time I wrote that. (Interesting that the spellchecker underlines Sylar in red, but thinks that Skylar is OK).

Yeah, I can see that it's annoying. I do know the right spelling as evidenced here:


RickStrobel said:


> Linderman's plan included Petrelli being president, not Sylar. In the future it was Sylar as president that wanted to eliminate all the Heroes. Just a continuation of what he's been doing all along.
> 
> It was interesting in how they made Sylar just a tiny bit likable. He was really upset about killing innocents. He didn't mind killing "specials" because in his sick way he though he was doing good by eliminating them. But you can throw all that out the window now that he's killed his mom - the ***** has hit the fan.


Now, if I could just spend one day on the Internet and not see "loose" in place of "lose" I'd be happy


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## MassD (Sep 19, 2002)

Sylar was frozen


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Sirius Black said:


> I don't think there is even a hint of "grey" in the actions of Sylar. He's a murderer. He didn't kill in self-defense or in a time of war. He killed for personal gain. That's "murder" in my book and he cannot be redeemed no matter what he does. He is the Voldemort of the Hero world. There is no redemption for one so evil as him.


I have to disagree with you here. He said that he did not want to kill "innocent" people, and the mutants he did kill he thought did not deserve their power. It seems to me that you are confusing psychosis with being evil. He believes he is doing the right thing, the fact that you disagree with him does not make him evil.



MFruchey said:


> Great. Now we're killing infants. That's going to be popular!


Probably not, but I'm tired of the mentality that a child's life is more valuable than that of an adult. I believe that your life becomes more valuable with the number of people that affected by your death. A person who has lived to be 100 has certainly touched more lives than a 2 year old.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

johnperkins21 said:


> I have to disagree with you here. He said that he did not want to kill "innocent" people, and the mutants he did kill he thought did not deserve their power. It seems to me that you are confusing psychosis with being evil. He believes he is doing the right thing, the fact that you disagree with him does not make him evil.


Hmmm, I seem to recall a pretty good poster child for the exact type of person you just described. He's got a funny little mustache. The verdict's in: He was evil.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but it does not change the fact that what he believes to be the right thing is inherently evil.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

jradford said:


> Hmmm, I seem to recall a pretty good poster child for the exact type of person you just described. He's got a funny little mustache. The verdict's in: He was evil.
> 
> I understand what you're trying to get at, but it does not change the fact that what he believes to be the right thing is inherently evil.


Hitler was not evil. He was a psychopath. Sylar has psychosis. He has lost touch with reality and has delusions of grandeur. How can you say someone is evil when their intentions are good, just misguided? I think your definition of evil is much too broad.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

johnperkins21 said:


> Hitler was not evil. He was a psychopath. Sylar has psychosis. He has lost touch with reality and has delusions of grandeur. How can you say someone is evil when their intentions are good, just misguided? I think your definition of evil is much too broad.


  

Hitler not evil?!?!?!?!

Either you are trolling, or have a seriously out of touch view of what evil is. A psychopath is, by most people's definitions, evil. A psychopath is one who feels no remorse for his or her actions, and acts in way that benefit themselves, with only personal consequences considered. BTW, the correct term is anti-social personality disorder these days.

This is very different from psychosis. Psychosis involves altered reality (i.e. hallucinations, paranoia) resulting from chemical foul-ups in the brain. Not at all the same thing as psychopathy.

So to sum up, Hitler=evil.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law. This thread is done.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Sorry if a smeek....

I think Hiro is going to have to pull a T2 to kill Sylar. Maybe he will have to teleport back in time to before Sylar was born and kill his Mom....a la Sarah/John Conner in T2.......


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

JETarpon said:


> I hereby invoke Godwin's Law. This thread is done.


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## MFruchey (May 25, 2006)

johnperkins21 said:


> Probably not, but I'm tired of the mentality that a child's life is more valuable than that of an adult. I believe that your life becomes more valuable with the number of people that affected by your death. A person who has lived to be 100 has certainly touched more lives than a 2 year old.


I'm not for this sacrificing of 4 million people, or whatever, but come on, someone who has lived for 100 years has had a pretty good chance at life. You'd really only be bumping the natural process up a bit.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

BrandonRe said:


> Hitler not evil?!?!?!?!
> 
> Either you are trolling, or have a seriously out of touch view of what evil is. A psychopath is, by most people's definitions, evil. A psychopath is one who feels no remorse for his or her actions, and acts in way that benefit themselves, with only personal consequences considered. BTW, the correct term is anti-social personality disorder these days.
> 
> ...


Not trolling. He thought he was helping humanity. My unpopular view of Hitler doesn't relate to the show though.

However, it's the same way with Sylar and "The Company." They believe their intentions are good, which puts them in a gray area between good and evil. From this episode we see Sylar has remorse for people he feels are innocent. The guy is nuts, but I don't think he's evil.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

I think he feels this way because...
*
(Contains serious spoilers - may ruin your enjoyment of the rest of the season - do not read without knowing this)*


Spoiler



His contract has been picked up for next season and the writers need a way to keep him around


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## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

Magister said:


> Audrey.... And Audrey II was the plant.


Specifically, Ellen Greene played Sylar's mom who also played Audrey on both Broadway and in the movie for Little Shop of Horrors.

KD


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Sylar does not believe his own intentions are "good" as much as "natural" or "logical" with perhaps a splash of destiny. His intentions are stricly based on self interests. In this episode his objection to the nuclear explosion was that it couldn't possibly be motivated by self interest, and therefore was needless. Thus began his moral quandary where he sees himself turning down a path that no longer involves self-interest and turns towards outright sadism or anarchy.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Sylar does not believe his own intentions are "good" as much as "natural" or "logical" with perhaps a splash of destiny. His intentions are stricly based on self interests. In this episode his objection to the nuclear explosion was that it couldn't possibly be motivated by self interest, and therefore was needless. Thus began his moral quandary where he sees himself turning down a path that no longer involves self-interest and turns towards outright sadism or anarchy.


I thought his reasoning was that innocent people would be hurt instead of others with powers "they didn't deserve."


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

dswallow said:


> I thought his reasoning was that innocent people would be hurt instead of others with powers "they didn't deserve."


I believe he literally said, "what could I possibly have to gain?" and so forth.


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## MFruchey (May 25, 2006)

johnperkins21 said:


> {Hitler} thought he was helping humanity.


I don't believe for a minute that Hitler thought he was helping humanity. That was just the rationale he supplied so as to gain followers. He was following his own agenda, as is Sylar.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

kdelande said:


> Specifically, Ellen Greene played Sylar's mom who also played Audrey on both Broadway and in the movie for Little Shop of Horrors.


Minor nit.... Ellen Greene originated the role of Audrey in the original _Off_-Broadway production of Little Shop (at the Orpheum Theater in New York).

Little Shop was never on Broadway until the recent "revival" about 4 years ago. IIRC, Ellen Greene was not in that production.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

srs5694 said:


> People really need to go back and review Linderman's speech to Nathan a couple of episodes ago. His plan is to do just as you suggest: Unite the world against those with special powers. Not only are the 0.07% expendable in Linderman's view, but so are those who'll be hunted down afterwards.


I guess I do need to go back and review it, because I don't remember him saying anything like that.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

johnperkins21 said:


> but I'm tired of the mentality that a child's life is more valuable than that of an adult. I believe that your life becomes more valuable with the number of people that affected by your death.


That's a nice thought, but it's not a logical way to compute the value to the world of the remainder of your life (i.e., what the world would be losing by having you die now instead of whenever you would have died otherwise). Obviously 4 million people whose lives would be over relatively soon (on average) anyway would have less value to the world (on average) than 4 million who still had many decades (on average) to contribute.

It seems to me that, contrary to your original statement, your method is wholly sentimental and not at all rational.

PS. Obviously this has nothing to do with Heroes because obviously you can't pick the 4 million to die if you're going to blow up a city. This discussion has morphed far away from the show... but it wasn't me that morphed it


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## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

RickStrobel said:


> Now, if I could just spend one day on the Internet and not see "loose" in place of "lose" I'd be happy


Add "viola" instead of "voila;" the former is a stringed musical instrument similar to a violin, the latter calls attention to a successful act or demonstration.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Your absolutely right!


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

And not to mention "your" when "you're" is meant.


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## FilmCritic3000 (Oct 29, 2004)

JimSpence said:


> And not to mention "your" when "you're" is meant.


Grammatically speaking, that's my biggest pet peeve! I just want to scream at people when I see them use your when they mean you're.


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## Grumpy Pants (Jul 1, 2002)

FilmCritic3000 said:


> Grammatically speaking, that's my biggest pet peeve! I just want to scream at people when I see them use your when they mean you're.


I think your being obtuse!!


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

I think the big question (at least to me) is when and how did Hiro's sword break? It didn't looks like it broke when Sylar was hanging onto it. So did they just make crappy sword's back in the 16th & 17th century that can't handle being teleported when frozen? If so, Kensei should've gotten Hattori Hanzo to hook him up with a sweeter blade back in the day, since they were around at the same time and in the same hood in Japan. When they landed Hiro seemed to already have the broken tip in his hand with zero blood flow. He didn't reach down to pick it off the floor. So, is it a dull blade (not much of a Sylar slaying weapon if so) that just snapped and he caught it when they touched down on terra firma? Or, did he touch it after they hit the earth and snap it? 
Did anyone else notice that when Hiro and Ando poofed out, they were standing side-by-side and Hiro had his left hand on Ando's right shoulder, and when they poofed into the painter's pad they had their back's to each other? Annnnd, if Sylar was holding onto the sword why didn't he get to go with'em? I suppose that's the part where Hiro can control what gets beamed out and what doesn't?

A few thought's...Since Peter can fly wouldn't it reason that he can be faster than anyone of the people around him. So, does he Superman into the clouds to keep from going BIG boom at the beginning of the next ep? It'd also be a nifty way for him to not become a few billions bit's when/if he torches the city if he goes up, up, and away into the wild blue yonder trying, but not being able to avoid shuttle rocket blasting NYC into a burning heap of a hole beneath him.
Linderman said that there were some people who had powers in the past and did good until some broke away and used their powers for personal gain. So far, there's three rich folks we know about: 
1) Linderman 
2) The Petrelli's 
3) Hiro's pop
Which group do they fall into? Me thinks the answer may be that all three belong(ed) to the dark side and now they wanna make good since they're older and wealthier. I suppose Linderman fancies himself as some sort of Pseudo-Professor X.

Linderman never say's anything about, nor did he infer that he wanted to unite the world against those with special powers. When he was talking to Nathan he says "...people needed hope. They trust fear. This tragedy will be a catalyst for good...for change. Out of the ashes, humanity will find a common goal, a united sense of hope, couched in a united sense of fear." He doesn't say fear of people with powers. Obviously, it's a fear of someone(s). But, it's never made clear who. Maybe his thinking is that he can somehow unite people with powers for a greater good. This, more than likely will manifest itself into some good power guys vs. bad power guys endgame. Then soon there is a yellow one that won't accept the black one, that won't accept the red one, that won't accept the white one. Different strokes for different folks. And so on and so on and scooby dooby dooby ooh sha sha....I am everyday people...

--edit note-- My apostrophe affliction hath presented itself.  The second step in my three and a third step recovery program is to try and correct them. If I fall off the wagon please point me in the direction of my sponsor....

Man did I ever loathe English class in school...


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Billyh1026 said:


> I think the big question (at least to me) is when and how did Hiro's sword break? It didn't looks like it broke when Sylar was hanging onto it.


Sylar was freezing the sword, then Hiro and Ando disappear. We don't see them when time is stopped, so we can only assume the Hiro broke the sword trying to get it out of Sylar's frozen grip. I guess ancient swords weren't made to withstand hero freeze powers.

PS. Billy, dude, seriously: you need to get a grip on your apostrophes!! They're running amok!


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Audrey:
A matchbox of our own
A fence of real chain link,
A grill out on the patio
Disposal in the sink
A washer and a dryer and an ironing machine
In a tract house that we share
Somewhere that's green.

He rakes and trims the grass
He loves to mow and weed
I cook like Betty Crocker
And I look like Donna Reed
There's plastic on the furniture
To keep it neat and clean
In the Pine-Sol scented air
Somewhere that's green


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

madscientist said:


> we can only assume the Hiro broke the sword trying to get it out of Sylar's frozen grip.
> 
> PS. Billy, dude, seriously: you need to get a grip on your apostrophes!! They're running amok!


Thing is that if it broke before they poofed out then it shouldn't have gone with'em since it was no longer a part of anything Hiro was touching right? If it broke in mid-poof then how did Hiro snag it without getting a boo-boo on his palm?

p.s. You've been appointed as my apostrophe affliction sponsor. If you get a call at odd hours of the night or morning I'ma need your help!!! Don't leave me hanging man....


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## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

Billyh1026 said:


> Linderman never say's anything about, nor did he infer that he wanted to unite the world against those with special powers. When he was talking to Nathan he says "...people needed hope. They trust fear. This tragedy will be a catalyst for good...for change. Out of the ashes, humanity will find a common goal, a united sense of hope, couched in a united sense of fear." He doesn't say fear of people with powers. Obviously, it's a fear of someone(s). But, it's never made clear who.


Linderman may not have inferred that he wanted to unite the world against those with powers, but he certainly implied it. It was a big blinking neon sign of an implication, as far as I'm concerned.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

srs5694 said:


> Linderman may not have inferred that he wanted to unite the world against those with powers, but he certainly implied it. It was a big blinking neon sign of an implication, as far as I'm concerned.


I disagree. He made a big point about healing one person at a time not saving the whole world, and that something major was going to have to change to bring people together and heal the world as a whole.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

srs5694 said:


> Linderman may not have inferred that he wanted to unite the world against those with powers, but he certainly implied it. It was a big blinking neon sign of an implication, as far as I'm concerned.


Do we have a Weird Al fan in our midst?


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> I hereby invoke Godwin's Law. This thread is done.


That's not how it works!


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> I disagree. He made a big point about healing one person at a time not saving the whole world, and that something major was going to have to change to bring people together and heal the world as a whole.


You inferred that this meant that he wanted to unite the world against supers. I do not think that is what he implied.


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

srs5694 said:


> Linderman may not have inferred that he wanted to unite the world against those with powers, but he certainly implied it. It was a big blinking neon sign of an implication, as far as I'm concerned.


I think you're wrongly inferring what he implied. Are you saying he want's to nuke part of NYC. Then, tell the entire world there are people out there with super powers and you should whack'em with a stick? They'll think he's nut's unless he start's parading super freak's around for demonstration's. There's no way he'll sacrifice all those super's on the off-hand chance that the world become's a utopia. IMO he's just banking on people feeling sorry for the folk's of NYC. Then that goodness pouring into other area's of the world. And soon everyone's standing around with a Coke singing I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony...blah, blah, blah...or something like that. But, he's surely not going to tell the world they're surrounded by...'people'....

Hey, anyone know when Linderman's going to fess up that he's Nathan and Peter's (and lord knows who else's) daddy?
Oh yeah...how much of Molly's blood do ya think they've got stored and synthesized? And, when are they gonna start using it on bad power people?


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

How is it that this thread had 6 pages when I started to reply then 4 when I was done? Am I the only one that see's page counts changing on this board??? I may have a power!! Or a delusion...


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## EvilMidniteBombr (May 25, 2006)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but so far all of Isaac's paintings have been correct. 

Therefore, I don't think anyone is going to be able to stop the explosion. The key may be to stop Linderman's plan for what happens after the nuke.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong, but so far all of Isaac's paintings have been correct.


Here's the way I see it: all of Isaac's paintings have come true _for someone_. Hiro has already been to the future and seen the destruction of New York, so that really happened -- even if, in our new timeline, the explosion doesn't occur.


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## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> I disagree. He made a big point about healing one person at a time not saving the whole world, and that something major was going to have to change to bring people together and heal the world as a whole.


As noted above, Linderman said that "humanity will find a common goal... couched in a united sense of fear." If the explosion is to unite humanity in a sense of fear, what are they to fear? The obvious answer is that they'll fear whatever they're told caused the explosion. If they're told anything near the truth, they'll fear those with special powers. That gives them a common goal: To control, and possibly to eliminate, such people. This was obvious to me as Linderman was giving his speech, and it's clearly where the show's producers went in the next episode.

As to Linderman's comments about healing, remember that he said in the same sequence that he expects to be remembered as a great humanitarian. He's clearly got a warped sense of humanitarianism (unless, perhaps, it's later revealed that he knows the alternative to NYC going boom is worse in some significant way). Even Nathan commented on this, but _appears_ to have been seduced by the promise of becoming President (although Nathan's true motives might yet be revealed to be something else).


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## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

Billyh1026 said:


> Are you saying he want's to nuke part of NYC. Then, tell the entire world there are people out there with super powers and you should whack'em with a stick?


Yup, except that _he's_ not nuking NYC; he's just going to take advantage of the aftermath. Always remember that; Linderman didn't (as far as we know) orchestrate the bombing; he's just going to take advantage of it, using his knowledge of the future to help guide his own actions to ensure that he (and his world view) comes out on top.



> They'll think he's nut's unless he start's parading super freak's around for demonstration's.


Or unless they become obvious anyhow -- say, some of the characters we've seen get caught on tape using their powers by reputable news organizations as they try to stop whoever it is going off. The explosion itself could get broadcast live -- until the camera is vaporized. Certainly the existence of these people is a recognized and accepted fact in the next episode (5 years in the future), and given Linderman's wealth of knowledge about the future, he probably knows that they will be recognized as real by the world at large, so Linderman doesn't really need to _do_ anything to shape this part of it; he's just got to move his pieces into place to be sure he's on the winning side.



> There's no way he'll sacrifice all those super's on the off-hand chance that the world become's a utopia.


Why not? He's a _gangster._ He's been shown to have no scruples about killing people if it serves his interests to do so. (Think of the people he hired Jessica to do away with.) Besides which, he's not really sacrificing anybody (or so he probably tells himself); he's just taking advantage of destined events.



> IMO he's just banking on people feeling sorry for the folk's of NYC. Then that goodness pouring into other area's of the world.


You're forgetting the _fear_ part -- _"people trust fear."_ The explosion will promote fear, not sympathy. Fear is the catalyst for the changes Linderman wants to implement. His "better world" substitutes a single worldwide hunt for people with abilities for hundreds of ethnic, religious, national, and other squabbles. Linderman thinks this single fear-driven hunt is preferable to what we've got now, and that change is worth doing nothing and letting 0.07% of the population die.


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## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

EvilMidniteBombr said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong, but so far all of Isaac's paintings have been correct.


I thought there was one showing Isaac and Simone on a rooftop overlooking the devastated NYC. That obviously won't happen now.

Also, given Candice's power, it's entirely plausible that she'll _fake_ the explosion for some reason -- say, to draw Linderman into a vulnerable position if she realizes what he's up to and decides she wants to oppose him. (Or Peter or even Sylar could do the same, if either absorbs Candice's power.)


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

There's a complete gallery of Isaac's paintings here, and some painting vs. reality comparisons here. The painting of Peter and Simone on the roof of the Deveaux building has a normal skyline; a different one shows the ruined city.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Billyh1026 said:


> Thing is that if it broke before they poofed out then it shouldn't have gone with'em since it was no longer a part of anything Hiro was touching right? If it broke in mid-poof then how did Hiro snag it without getting a boo-boo on his palm?


If it broke why couldn't he walk over and pick it up before he and Ando left (while time was still stopped)?



Billyh1026 said:


> p.s. You've been appointed as my apostrophe affliction sponsor. If you get a call at odd hours of the night or morning I'ma need your help!!! Don't leave me hanging man....


I dunno, man, I think it might be a job for more than one person


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## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

Billyh1026 said:


> I think the big question (at least to me) is when and how did Hiro's sword break?


IMHO, this is an extremely minor issue; however, I recently re-watched the episode, and there's a metallic "ping" sound at the exact moment when Hiro and Ando teleport out. It sounds to me as if the sword broke at the moment of teleportation, perhaps as a result of being teleported without the person who was holding it (namely, Sylar).


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned, but what if Linderman's stated plan (bringing peace) would actually work, but in the future we saw it didn't because Nathan wasn't really president? Perhaps Linderman didn't count on Sylar killing Nathan and replacing him, and that was what "threw off" the plan. So the outcome we saw in the future may not have been what Linderman wanted.


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## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Sylar WAS frozen in time. He had to be. It was the break in Hiro's concentration that freed him. How else were Hiro & Ando able to "disappear" without Sylar detecting them?


I don't think so.
After watching the episode again, it seemed obvious that the instant the sword touched Sylar's neck, he absorbed Hiro's power. They went to great effort to show a closeup of the sword touching him. That's when he gained time control and broke out.

So Sylar doesn't HAVE to kill people to take their power, he just wants to. And he doesn't want to share the power with someone who, in his words, "doesn't deserve it."

And what does he do with the brains, anyway?

Where did he get the freeze power? My wife reminded me of the mechanic with the super hearing, but I don't remember anyone who could freeze stuff.


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## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

mitchb2 said:


> I don't think so.
> After watching the episode again, it seemed obvious that the instant the sword touched Sylar's neck, he absorbed Hiro's power. They went to great effort to show a closeup of the sword touching him. That's when he gained time control and broke out.
> 
> So Sylar doesn't HAVE to kill people to take their power, he just wants to. And he doesn't want to share the power with someone who, in his words, "doesn't deserve it."
> ...


Isn't it the guy that could change the molecular make up of stuff, e.g. melt toasters? The guy that Suresh was coming to meet just after Sylar got to him first?


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## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

So how creepy is that that murderers kill their mothers and paint visions of doom with her blood?


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## srs5694 (Oct 14, 2001)

mitchb2 said:


> I don't think so.
> After watching the episode again, it seemed obvious that the instant the sword touched Sylar's neck, he absorbed Hiro's power. They went to great effort to show a closeup of the sword touching him. That's when he gained time control and broke out.


OTOH, Sylar's mother unfroze at the same moment he did (or as near to it as we could tell given the editing). If Sylar had simply absorbed Hiro's power, I'd think he'd have "stepped out of time," leaving everybody but Hiro and Sylar frozen, much like Future Hiro and Peter on the subway several episodes back. The timing of the time freeze breaking could easily be coincidence, and I wouldn't read too much into the closeup. The director might just have wanted a closeup for dramatic purposes; in fact, the director might not even know whether Sylar absorbed Hiro's power.



> So Sylar doesn't HAVE to kill people to take their power, he just wants to.


Personally, I like the hypothesis that Peter's power and Sylar's power are identical but that Sylar just _thinks_ he needs to kill people and cut open their skulls to use their powers -- it makes for a smaller set of known powers, which is a good thing when there are only four genes controlling it all. I just don't think this scene really provides any evidence to support this hypothesis.



> Where did he get the freeze power? My wife reminded me of the mechanic with the super hearing, but I don't remember anyone who could freeze stuff.


AFAIK, we've never seen who originally possessed that power, unless it's a special application of telekinesis (slowing down individual molecules rather than whole objects). He has had it for quite a while, though; at least one of Molly Walker's parents was frozen in place in the episode in which Parkman found Molly.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Since when does Sylar "absorb power"? That would make the whole eating brains thing a bit redundant, wouldn't it? Or maybe he just enjoys brains??


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pdhenry said:


> Since when does Sylar "absorb power"? That would make the whole eating brains thing a bit redundant, wouldn't it? Or maybe he just enjoys brains??


Well, that's what I've always said. He eats the brains because he likes it. He has convinced himself that that's how he gets the powers. But he could probably do it in a less invasive manner, if he had the imagination or inclination.


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

Ok, so I suppose Linderman's plan is to alert the world that there are people out there with powers. Then he'll act as some sort of Professor-X/Jordan Collier and get the word out that he can 'help' you out if you want it. Then he'll weed out the good from the bad. Or, he probably won't even need to weed them out since only the good will really seek out some protection from him. 

I looked at the ep again and heard the ping of the sword. Still doesn't explain how it teleported if it wasn't physically connected to Hiro. Which, from everything I've seen, is the way that things go with him get there IMO that's a pretty big faux pas. Probably not to most people, but it just doesn't make any sense to me. (saying it was big issue to me was meant to be a bit facetious...now the tip of the sword is..hmmm....how's that happen?)

I think Sylar's being able to figure out how thing's work is kind of an evolving thing. At first he has to take it apart, study it, figure it out, then apply it. After a while he just becomes better/faster at understanding how it works and, for lack of a better word, absorbs the powers much like Peter does. It becomes second nature so-to-speak. He just doesn't know that yet.

Anyone else notice how future Hiro speaks basically accent free English? And, in only 5 years!! Amazing eh?!?!


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Billyh1026 said:


> I looked at the ep again and heard the ping of the sword. Still doesn't explain how it teleported if it wasn't physically connected to Hiro. Which, from everything I've seen, is the way that things go with him get there IMO that's a pretty big faux pas.


Hiro doesn't teleport things. He stops time, then moves himself (and other things), then when time is restarted he and those things seem to have been "teleported". But they weren't: Hiro moved them.

I don't understand the problem you're having. It's never been suggested that when time is stopped, Hiro can only move things that he was touching when he stopped it. In fact we've seen tons of evidence to contradict that assertion. So, Hiro breaks the sword. He stops time (or vice versa, either way). He walks over and picks up the tip of the sword that broke off. He and Ando walk out. He restarts time.

It may be true that things he's touching while he stops time don't have time stopped for them: that's why he touches Ando, so Ando can walk himself away when time is stopped rather than Hiro having to carry him. But for inanimate objects like a sword it can't make any discernible difference whether time is stopped for that object, or not.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

madscientist said:


> Hiro doesn't teleport things. He stops time, then moves himself (and other things), then when time is restarted he and those things seem to have been "teleported". But they weren't: Hiro moved them.


Hmm. So you're saying that Hiro stopped time, then WALKED to New York, stood in Times Square, started time, and screamed, "Hello New York"?

Oh wait, I forgot. He followed Google Maps directions and SWAM there.

Greg


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gchance said:


> Hmm. So you're saying that Hiro stopped time, then WALKED to New York, stood in Times Square, started time, and screamed, "Hello New York"?


Not to mention, he stopped time then WALKED five years into the future...


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not to mention, he stopped time then WALKED five years into the future...


and back. Uphill, both ways.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

balboa dave said:


> and back. Uphill, both ways.


In a snowstorm.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

in a *time * storm (apologies to Gordon R. Dickson).


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

balboa dave said:


> in a *time * storm (apologies to Gordon R. Dickson).


Aside: I'm a big fan of Dickson's Childe Cycle series, which I haven't read in over five years ... Is 'time storm" part of that series? I'm not familiar with it!


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

drew2k said:


> Aside: I'm a big fan of Dickson's Childe Cycle series, which I haven't read in over five years ... Is 'time storm" part of that series? I'm not familiar with it!


No, it's a stand alone novel, and a must read if you're a Dickson fan. But nothing to do with Heroes, I just stealing the title to make a very inside joke.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Yeah, well, OK... he can teleport. My bad. But we've also seen him walk around and move things while time is stopped. However, I don't consider the 5 years in the future thing teleporting. As I recall they didn't move anywhere that time, they only moved any_when_.

The whole going to New York to see the bomb go off, then back, is just too weird for me. It doesn't make any sense given what we know about his power, so I just kind of ignore it completely.

At any rate, I still don't see what's so hard to believe about Hiro having both ends of the sword even though it broke in half.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

madscientist said:


> Yeah, well, OK... he can teleport. My bad. But we've also seen him walk around and move things while time is stopped. However, I don't consider the 5 years in the future thing teleporting. As I recall they didn't move anywhere that time, they only moved any_when_.


Well then, that's a problem with terminology. Whatever you call it, he uses his power to move through space and/or time...or (in the case of time-freezes) to _not_ move. I really don't think moving through space and moving through time are two separate powers.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well then, that's a problem with terminology. Whatever you call it, he uses his power to move through space and/or time...or (in the case of time-freezes) to _not_ move. I really don't think moving through space and moving through time are two separate powers.


As we know from the TARDIS:


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

OK, let's make it official. What Hiro does is TARDISing.

He TARDISes through space. He TARDISes through time. He TARDIS-freezes the world.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

madscientist said:


> Yeah, well, OK... he can teleport. My bad. But we've also seen him walk around and move things while time is stopped. However, I don't consider the 5 years in the future thing teleporting. As I recall they didn't move anywhere that time, they only moved any_when_.


But when him and Ando teleported to the future, they were teleporting from Las Vegas. Remember, they were in Linderman's vault and Hiro had just stolen the sword. Security was closing in on them and Hiro tried teleporting them out...he teleported from Vegas to New York but he went five years into the future during that trip.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, let's make it official. What Hiro does is TARDISing.
> 
> He TARDISes through space. He TARDISes through time. He TARDIS-freezes the world.


To be semi-serious, the one thing all time travel stories ignore (besides reality, logic, and physics, of course) is the earth's motion in space. We're talking about rotation on its axis, orbiting the sun, the solar system's orbit around the galaxy, etc. Stay in one spot and move through time, and the earth won't be there any more! Until the TARDIS, which for those who don't know (and what's wrong with you if you don't  ), means time and relative dimension in space. A machine, or person in this case, that can move through both space and time can, from a non-time-shifted viewpoint, stay in place on the planet while they shift forward or back in time.

Since this is what Hiro is doing, I agree, let's call it tardising, but we can use lower case, since it's now a verb, right? It's no fun unless it's obscure and confusing to people who never heard of Doctor Who. (oops, I gave it away.  )


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