# Game of Thrones S8E2 "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" 4/21/2019



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I'll have a mod update the thread title when HBO releases the episode title.

ETA: The title is "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms "


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Calm before the storm...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

People often ask me if I ever get tired of being right...and I don't!

So the big battle is in episode 3, just as I predicted! 

genius, I (and Rob) say 

Brienne is awesome. Loved the scene of her becoming a knight. Loved the story about the Giant. Loved that Arya and the Hound made peace. Sansa and Dany almost making peace. 

Anyone else get an Airplane! vibe with Arya wanting to know what sex is like since they're about to die?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

markp99 said:


> Calm before the storm...


But a very entertaining calm! Last week was moving the pieces into place; this week was reunions. Lots of really nice character work. I especially liked the fireplace chat, but really, the whole episode was excellent.

None of the drama that was set up really ended up happening. Jaime was accepted (more or less) pretty quickly, and the Mormonts got along just fine. Bran messed with Jaime a little, but I'm pretty sure he was just messing with him. It seems like everybody who is there is there to fight on the side of the living against the dead, and is willing to put their differences behind them.

The only outstanding business (aside from the army of the dead getting ready to launch their great assault) is how Dany will react to Jon's little bombshell...I still say the best option in just about every way is for them to marry and rule together. If Jon isn't too weirded out about sleeping with his Auntie.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I can't believe how happy this show makes me sometimes. Theon and Sansa's hug I teared up. I'm so happy he's back where he belongs! Dany about to accuse Jon and his friends of lying to take her throne. She needs checked. I'm tired. I wish he'd had just said "I don't want the throne" unless he's suddenly changed his mind on that? I mean it's rightfully his but only a few people know this so they could all just shut up and let her have it. 

Brienne and Jaime made me happy too. Him knighting her was about as awesome as it gets. It's everything she deserves and I'm sure she's going to promptly die next week now. This show barely gives you anything good. I suspect Theon will die defending Bran as well. 

Arya and Gendry wow. He's a goner too I guess. 

More later, I'm still processing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

By the way, am I the only one who is a little creeped out by how insistent everybody is about sending the women and children to hide from the dead in...the crypt?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

When Bran said that the Night King had marked him and always knew where he was, I was surprised that everybody else in the room didn't do a spit take and go "What? Huh? Wait. Wha?"

It was nice to see Brienne smile.

I guess Jon had to tell Dany at that point since he doesn't know if he, Sam, Bran or Dany will survive to corroborate the story but still... It'll definitely complicate things and potentially drive a wedge between them during the war with the dead and afterwards against Cercei.

A whole lotta sh*t has to happen in the final four episodes. I'm hoping for a Dany v. Sansa catfight to be squeezed in.

This was a very talky episode. I'm guessing there will be a lot of action going forth.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Is Bran able to show Dany what really happened? Like taking her to the wedding ceremony or Lyanna handing to baby over to Ned? How else can she be convinced? My wife said Jon needs to survive a fire and walk away unscathed.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> Is Bran able to show Dany what really happened? Like taking her to the wedding ceremony or Lyanna handing to baby over to Ned? How else can she be convinced? My wife said Jon needs to survive a fire and walk away unscathed.


Or ride a dragon... 

But yes, I've long wondered if Bran could take somebody back the same way the previous Three-Eyed Raven took Bran back. That would certainly simplify things...


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

gossamer88 said:


> Is Bran able to show Dany what really happened? Like taking her to the wedding ceremony or Lyanna handing to baby over to Ned? How else can she be convinced? My wife said Jon needs to survive a fire and walk away unscathed.


Is he able to do that like the other TER did to him in the cave? Or was that only because he was about to become the next one?

Also good point about the fire, now I'm curious.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Dany about to accuse Jon and his friends of lying to take her throne. She needs checked. I'm tired. I wish he'd had just said "I don't want the throne" unless he's suddenly changed his mind on that? I mean it's rightfully his but only a few people know this so they could all just shut up and let her have it.


I'd be suspicious too if I were Dany. She has no idea who Bran is or what a three eyed raven is. Sam saying he found a passage negating her claim to the iron throne right after he learned that she killed his father and brother seems shady Jon should have said "Hey, your dragon knows!" He also probably should have promised to decline his claim if they both survived everything.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Just came to say "I love Tormund."

That is all.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> I'd be suspicious too if I were Dany. She has no idea who Bran is or what a three eyed raven is. Sam saying he found a passage negating her claim to the iron throne right after he learned that she killed his father and brother. Jon should have said "Hey, your dragon knows!" He also probably should have promised to decline his claim if they both survived everything.


He definitely should have said that. He's been crying to the heavens since day one about how he doesn't want to be a king and now he shuts up? pffffft.

However if I'm honest I think they can both rule. What's a little incest anyhow? It's almost a right of passage in the Targaryen family!


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

So Jamie tells Tyrion Cersi is not lying about the pregnancy. How does he know for sure. Why would you believe her?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> Is Bran able to show Dany what really happened? Like taking her to the wedding ceremony or Lyanna handing to baby over to Ned? How else can she be convinced? My wife said Jon needs to survive a fire and walk away unscathed.


Dany's brother didn't survive and died from burns from the golden crown.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> So Jamie tells Tyrion Cersi is not lying about the pregnancy. How does he know for sure. Why would you believe her?


He at least could confirm they had sex. Thats what he really did.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Dany's brother didn't survive and died from burns from the golden crown.


And she said I guess he wasn't a dragon after all.

Not all Targaryens are created equal.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Dany's brother didn't survive and died from burns from the golden crown.


That really wasn't fire though. 


TonyD79 said:


> He at least could confirm they had sex. Thats what he really did.


Sex does not equal pregnancy.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Brienne is awesome. Loved the scene of her becoming a knight.


She was SO proud! I love Jaime for doing that.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> That really wasn't fire though.
> .


No, but it burned him. His sister does not seem to feel heat at all. The too hot bath, the metal things full of fire she dumped over to kill the Khals, etc. It doesn't affect her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ct1 said:


> Just came to say "I love Tormund."


IIRC, his attraction to Brienne was something that initially he improvised, and the writers liked it so much they took it and ran with it. And ran with it. And RAN with it!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

What an amazing episode. One last hour to spend with many of them, before the Battle of the Dead. Their last hour with each other.

It really is incredible what a web GRRM has created. It seems everyone is intertwined with everyone else. Ser Jorah seeing his cousin, Bran & Jaime, Brienne and everyone, Arya and Gendry from back in S1/S2. Beric and the Hound, Podrick, who used to be with Tyrion, and now Brienne. And on and on. (Did we see Bronn?). Ten years we've spent watching their lives twist around each other, and here we have them, all together, drinking wine and singing songs, sitting on the wall, saying the farewells. And many won't last beyond next week. 

And that final scene with Jon and Dany. Standing in front of his Aunt Lyanna mother.

I can't recall another show that has created such a rich fabric of characters.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I keep saying I'm prepared for them to all die because it's GOT but deep down I'm going to be crushed at any of them we saw tonight dying, even if heroically. 

Also did we mention GHOST!!! That's the first we've seen of him since Jon's resurrection right? DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT SHOW. I don't want to watch another dire die a horrible death.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> By the way, am I the only one who is a little creeped out by how insistent everybody is about sending the women and children to hide from the dead in...the crypt?





Spoiler



"The dead are already here."


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Finally seeing the episode name on HBONow. 

"A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms "


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I enjoyed this better than E1, so little time left!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Jstkiddn said:


> Finally seeing the episode name on HBONow.
> "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms "


A worthy title!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> A worthy title!


But a little odd that they wouldn't release it in advance. Out of context, it's very generic, but once you see the episode it takes on meaning...

For that matter, last week's title didn't exactly reveal anything. Maybe they're just getting into the habit because of what's coming..?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Also about them sending all the women and children to the crypts. Is it not dawning on any of them that all those dead Starks are down there just waiting on the Night King to make them part of his army the minute he touches Winterfell???


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Finally seeing the episode name on HBONow.
> 
> "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms "


Thanks, I've requested an update to the thread title.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

gossamer88 said:


> My wife said Jon needs to survive a fire and walk away unscathed.


Jon burned his hand on a lantern defending Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. So, not immune to heat/fire.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

astrohip said:


> (Did we see Bron?)


 No Bronn yet. I have been watching very closely all the scenes in the courtyard etc. expecting him to show up skulking around. In fact when Jaime arrived in Winterfell last episode before he removed his hood, I half thought he was Bronn.

However, I guess if I were Bronn I would wait down around Riverrun or similar until after the battle for Winterfell was complete... if Jaime or Tyrion survive that they will come south and that will be time enough for treachery (or not). He sure doesn't want to be stuck in Winterfell with the NK bearing down on it. And if the NK wins, he may just want to keep running south to Dorne.



photoshopgrl said:


> Also did we mention GHOST!!! That's the first we've seen of him since Jon's resurrection right? DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT SHOW. I don't want to watch another dire die a horrible death.


 Ghost? I didn't see Ghost. Where did I miss him?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

madscientist said:


> Ghost? I didn't see Ghost. Where did I miss him?


When Jon, Sam and Edd are on the roof talking, Ghost is standing there. 


Spoiler


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Another great episode.

It seems odd to credit GRRM for bringing this resolution when it's all a TV show storyline.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Was this the first episode of GOT ever where no one died?


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But a little odd that they wouldn't release it in advance. Out of context, it's very generic, but once you see the episode it takes on meaning...
> 
> For that matter, last week's title didn't exactly reveal anything. Maybe they're just getting into the habit because of what's coming..?


They're probably just being extra paranoid about avoiding any potential spoilers.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also about them sending all the women and children to the crypts. Is it not dawning on any of them that all those dead Starks are down there just waiting on the Night King to make them part of his army the minute he touches Winterfell???


It might have occurred to somebody... 


Rob Helmerichs said:


> By the way, am I the only one who is a little creeped out by how insistent everybody is about sending the women and children to hide from the dead in...the crypt?





Shakhari said:


> They're probably just being extra paranoid about avoiding any potential spoilers.


But again, what spoilers? Neither title spoils anything whatsoever...


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I think they delayed the release of episode 1's title which is the most innocuous possible. I just think it's what they're doing. Nothing about not spoiling.

-smak-


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

The Mountain and the Viper as well as Battle of the Bastards were titles released way in advance before they aired and they got a lot of crap for it. So I don't mind them holding the title 'til after it airs.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I was half-expecting to see Bronn show up with the dragon-killer machine...he may still show up mid-battle...Since it was used in a battle a long time ago, and they know the NK now has a dragon, I'm surprised they didn't try to make one at Winterfell.

I'm a guy and I love female nudity as much as anyone, but did anyone else feel creepy during the Arya scene? I literally averted my eyes so I don't know how much nudity there was. It totally freaked me out. She has stayed kind-of small so I still think of her as a 10-year-old.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I'm a guy and I love female nudity as much as anyone, but did anyone else feel creepy during the Arya scene?


Yes, definitely. That was weird.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> When Jon, Sam and Edd are on the roof talking, Ghost is standing there.
> 
> 
> Spoiler


This actually confused me. Wasn't Ghost killed?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I've said before that I believe that the primary reason for nude/sex scenes is simply because the director wants to check out the actress' boobs, for artistic reasons, of course. I was surprised that the Arya/Gendry scene went on as long as it did. They could have shown them kissing and going after each other's clothes and then switched to another scene. I assume Maisie Williams signed off on it willingly so I'm cool with it.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

madscientist said:


> No Bronn yet. I have been watching very closely all the scenes in the courtyard etc. expecting him to show up skulking around. In fact when Jaime arrived in Winterfell last episode before he removed his hood, I half thought he was Bronn.


My first thought was Melisandre. Still wondering how she will fit into the battle against the NK.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Contains extensive book facts but no spoilers:

How "Jenny's Song" Could Foreshadow Jon and Daenerys's Future on 'Game of Thrones'


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I assume Maisie Williams signed off on it willingly so I'm cool with it.


Knowing her, she requested it. In interviews, Maisie comes across as a very out-there, live in the moment kind of person. Reminds me of the way a couple of the Modern Family kids became slightly rebellious as they reached young adulthood.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Did Gilly seem pregnant to everyone?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Interview with Maisie on her scene...

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/21/game-of-thrones-maisie-williams-gendry



Anubys said:


> Did Gilly seem pregnant to everyone?


My wife blurted out "she's gained some weight" when we first saw her, so it was definitely noticeable (whatever it may be).


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I guess Jon had to tell Dany at that point since he doesn't know if he, Sam, Bran or Dany will survive to corroborate the story but still... It'll definitely complicate things and potentially drive a wedge between them during the war with the dead and afterwards against Cercei.


I don't think he saw it as a complication. He doesn't want to be king, he's never wanted to be king. I think he thought she'd realize that and was caught off guard by her reaction.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> But a little odd that they wouldn't release it in advance. Out of context, it's very generic, but once you see the episode it takes on meaning...
> 
> For that matter, last week's title didn't exactly reveal anything. Maybe they're just getting into the habit because of what's coming..?


It looks like they've decided just not to release any titles in advance. Smart.



Anubys said:


> Did Gilly seem pregnant to everyone?


The actress did. TV pregnancies rarely come with weight gain anywhere but the abdomen so I bet either Gilly & the actress are pregnant or just the actress is.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I'm a guy and I love female nudity as much as anyone, but did anyone else feel creepy during the Arya scene? I literally averted my eyes so I don't know how much nudity there was. It totally freaked me out. She has stayed kind-of small so I still think of her as a 10-year-old.


Definitely! It's hard not to think of her as a kid. Plus she's always wearing battle gear with no visible breasts so it was quite disconcerting to see she actually has them!


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

astrohip said:


> Interview with Maisie on her scene...
> 
> https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/21/game-of-thrones-maisie-williams-gendry


This made me laugh:

"I'm reading the scene and thought, 'Oh, we're actually going to do this. When do I shoot this? I need to go to the gym.' "


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It might have occurred to somebody...


Oh I saw your reply I just didn't realize you were saying the same thing I was. I just thought you were creeped out they were hiding down there. Be more specific Rob! 



morac said:


> This actually confused me. Wasn't Ghost killed?


No. Ghost and Nymeria are the only remaining ones.



cheesesteak said:


> I've said before that I believe that the primary reason for nude/sex scenes is simply because the director wants to check out the actress' boobs, for artistic reasons, of course. I was surprised that the Arya/Gendry scene went on as long as it did. They could have shown them kissing and going after each other's clothes and then switched to another scene. I assume Maisie Williams signed off on it willingly so I'm cool with it.


I don't think you're alone. I saw a lot of people talking about it. That's why HBO went out of their way to say the character is 18 now. lol



Anubys said:


> Did Gilly seem pregnant to everyone?


Yes, the actress definitely is!



Robin said:


> This made me laugh:
> "I'm reading the scene and thought, 'Oh, we're actually going to do this. When do I shoot this? I need to go to the gym.' "


That's what I was going to quote as well. I feel that because I'm pretty sure that would have been my exact reaction as well!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Did Gilly seem pregnant to everyone?


I noticed the weight gain in her face, and then an obvious baby bump was visible when she moved. It is conceivable (  ) that Gilly could be pregnant.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

heySkippy said:


> Yes, definitely. That was weird.


I felt the same way watching Bree and Roger in Outlander, and we never even saw the actress as a child in the show.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

I enjoyed the first Arya/Gendry scene a lot more.
As she throws the three dragon-glass blades..."I know Death. He's got many faces. I look forward to seeing this one."
Gendry stands with mouth agape and then smiles.
Arya: "My weapon."
Gendry: "I'll get right on it."


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I love how people keep making cracks about how short Jon Snow is.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> I love how people keep making cracks about how short Jon Snow is.


"He was...taller." Um, Dany, that really doesn't narrow it down.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Am I the only who is disappointed that the spent another episode setting things up? The only new development is Jaime's acceptance and Jon telling Dany about his heritage.

The thing that really shocked me is that the cause of Bran's fall is a mystery. Do people even know that he was pushed, or do they think it was just an accident?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dtle said:


> Am I the only who is disappointed that the spent another episode setting things up? The only new development is Jaime's acceptance and Jon telling Dany about his heritage.


I thought this episode had an enormous amount of character payoff, things that have been developing for almost the entire series.

I thought it was one of the best episodes of the series, which is doubly impressive because there was no action whatsoever. And by getting all that character work off the table, they can now settle down to four extra-length episodes of epic warfare (and its aftermath)!


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

I have a question about the upcoming battle with the army of the dead. I'll limit it to what's been depicted on the show.

When Jon gives his product demo for Cersei in last season's finale, he said they (wights) can be killed by fire or dragon-glass. He doesn't mention Valyrian steel (though we know it works on White Walkers).
We've had three major battles with the dead: Fist of the First Men, Hardhome, and Beyond the Wall. While the living lost all three battles they managed to "put down" many dead soldiers with traditional weapons. How? Do those fallen dead soldiers get resurrected _again_ by the NK or a WW?


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Robin said:


> Definitely! It's hard not to think of her as a kid. Plus she's always wearing battle gear with no visible breasts so it was quite disconcerting to see she actually has them!


Plus, we skew pretty old around here, so 22 is still a kid


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Arya / Gendry - I thought it was actually done very tastefully. Only a quick shot of Maise's sideboobs and her butt, and they didn't linger on it. I think they wanted to show that she's fully matured, and no longer just a kid put in an untenable situation and survived it to someone with some actual feelings, and not just a cold blooded killer.

As for the episode in general. I've learned quite a bit about what it was like the day(s) before D-Day. How anxious the soldiers were, knowing they could very possibly die, but also, wanting to get into it after all that training. This episode gave me the same vibe. A bunch of people thrown together for one cause, knowing that their days are possibly numbered, yet, as ready as they can be for action. This episode was as good as it can be from a character standpoint and definitely Emmy worthy. First time I did a time check on the episode was with 10 minutes to go. That's how I knew how engrossed I was. With Jon revealing who he is, I think both he and Dany are going to survive. I think in the end either Dany will be Queen and Jon will tell her he doesn't want to be King (and the secret will never be reveled to anyone outside of who already know, or, Dany will, because she loves him, wind up telling Jon he's the rightful King, and they end up ruling together (how's that for a hedge?). 

I'll be in Vegas next week and my son asked me if I will take an hour out from the fun to watch. I told him..it's Vegas!! But, I do see watching it on the flight home, and then, rewatching on the big screen again.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

dtle said:


> Am I the only who is disappointed that the spent another episode setting things up? The only new development is Jaime's acceptance and Jon telling Dany about his heritage.
> 
> The thing that really shocked me is that the cause of Bran's fall is a mystery. Do people even know that he was pushed, or do they think it was just an accident?


One of the best episodes of the series, not for the shocking surprises but for just giving us one last chance to be with each character before some of them die. Just so well written, fun and interesting.

As for Bran's fall, if you remember the setup during S1, Bran was always doing things like climbing and being a curious boy, so him falling from the window would not be out of character for him. So I think that's how that was kept a secret. Bran's "The things we do for love" line to Jamie was his way of telling Jamie that he knows what happened to him, and that he wasn't going to tell anyone about it. In fact he spun it that, if it weren't for the push, he wouldn't have become the 3-eyed raven, so that needed to happen.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Arya / Gendry - I thought it was actually done very tastefully. Only a quick shot of Maise's sideboobs and her butt, and they didn't linger on it. I think they wanted to show that she's fully matured, and no longer just a kid put in an untenable situation and survived it to someone with some actual feelings, and not just a cold blooded killer.


Although it could be argued she was pretty cold-blooded in how she went about it (find a hunky guy who has a crush on you, jump his bones)...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MacThor said:


> I have a question about the upcoming battle with the army of the dead. I'll limit it to what's been depicted on the show.
> 
> When Jon gives his product demo for Cersei in last season's finale, he said they (wights) can be killed by fire or dragon-glass. He doesn't mention Valyrian steel (though we know it works on White Walkers).
> We've had three major battles with the dead: Fist of the First Men, Hardhome, and Beyond the Wall. While the living lost all three battles they managed to "put down" many dead soldiers with traditional weapons. How? Do those fallen dead soldiers get resurrected _again_ by the NK or a WW?


I've often wondered about that. My guess is that the wights can be killed the same way you kill a living person. That makes the mostly dead. Mostly dead means slightly...er...wrong thread...I'm assuming they can be resurrected by the NK.

I'm also assuming that if you kill them with dragon glass, dragon fire, or valerian steel, they are completely dead.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Steveknj said:


> As for the episode in general. I've learned quite a bit about what it was like the day(s) before D-Day. How anxious the soldiers were, knowing they could very possibly die, but also, wanting to get into it after all that training. This episode gave me the same vibe. A bunch of people thrown together for one cause, knowing that their days are possibly numbered, yet, as ready as they can be for action. This episode was as good as it can be from a character standpoint and definitely Emmy worthy. First time I did a time check on the episode was with 10 minutes to go. That's how I knew how engrossed I was. With Jon revealing who he is, I think both he and Dany are going to survive. I think in the end either Dany will be Queen and Jon will tell her he doesn't want to be King (and the secret will never be reveled to anyone outside of who already know, or, Dany will, because she loves him, wind up telling Jon he's the rightful King, and they end up ruling together (how's that for a hedge?).
> 
> I'll be in Vegas next week and my son asked me if I will take an hour out from the fun to watch. I told him..it's Vegas!! But, I do see watching it on the flight home, and then, rewatching on the big screen again.


I agree with everything you said about the feel of the episode. I loved it so much. I've already rewatched it twice. Also don't forget the episode next week is not just an hour. The run time is 82 minutes!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although it could be argued she was pretty cold-blooded in how she went about it (find a hunky guy who has a crush on you, jump his bones)...


the hunky guy working metal by the fire and steam all around him...the only thing missing was a stripper pole!


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

dtle said:


> Am I the only who is disappointed that the spent another episode setting things up? The only new development is Jaime's acceptance and Jon telling Dany about his heritage.


No, I've heard quite a bit of that this morning. I thought this episode was better than Episode 8-1, but it sure seems they've written themselves into having to cram too much resolution into 4 episodes.

I remember one of the more prominent critics penning a column a while back that when the show got down to just living vs. dead, it's going to get a lot less interesting. At least there's still Cersei/Euron/Golden Company and a potential intra-Targaryen feud.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I will also mention that the Lannisters were accused of trying to kill Bran...Kat found blonde hair where Jaime and Cersei were doing it...she also kidnapped Tyrion and accused him of the crime and the assassin that tried to kill Bran had a dagger belonging to Tyrion (although we found out later it belonged to Baelish). So the link between Bran and the Lannisters is well-established for people in Winterfell.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Reminded me of this:


Spoiler: "Drink with Me" from Les Mis


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm voting on the side that thinks the last two episodes were fantastic and that this episode is more fantastic than the first one. Every second of this episode was brilliant and my only regret is that it wasn't longer.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

dtle said:


> The thing that really shocked me is that the cause of Bran's fall is a mystery. Do people even know that he was pushed, or do they think it was just an accident?


No one knows. Jamie told Catelyn, but she's not talking.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Arya's nudity looked weird to me. Like she was wearing a flesh color body suit or it was heavily blurred...which I was OK with...


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

MacThor said:


> No, I've heard quite a bit of that this morning. I thought this episode was better than Episode 8-1, but it sure seems they've written themselves into having to cram too much resolution into 4 episodes.


I mean, everyone is welcome to be wrong about this episode  but also remember the remaining are all extended episodes. They have plenty of time. I was thinking honestly that if the NK battle is next week then that still leaves 3 feature length episodes to deal with the throne battle. That's a lot for me! I have always loved the character driven episodes more than the battle ones anyhow but that's just me.

Remaining episodes run time in case anyone has forgotten:

Episode three - 82 minutes
Episode four - 78 minutes
Episode five - 79 minutes
Episode six - 79 minutes


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I agree with everything you said about the feel of the episode. I loved it so much. I've already rewatched it twice. Also don't forget the episode next week is not just an hour. The run time is 82 minutes!


I also remember the Soprano threads and people complaining about the episodes where there wasn't a whacking, yet they were so engrossing because of the characters and the vibe and feel of the episode. This reminded me of the very best of the non-action Sopranos episodes.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Sansa very publicly laid the entire Lannister-Stark feud (and, indirectly, the War of the Five Kings) on Baelish.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I will also mention that the Lannisters were accused of trying to kill Bran...Kat found blonde hair where Jaime and Cersei were doing it...she also kidnapped Tyrion and accused him of the crime and the assassin that tried to kill Bran had a dagger belonging to Tyrion (although we found out later it belonged to Baelish). So the link between Bran and the Lannisters is well-established for people in Winterfell.


You are correct. Completely forgot about that.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)




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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> No, I've heard quite a bit of that this morning. I thought this episode was better than Episode 8-1, but it sure seems they've written themselves into having to cram too much resolution into 4 episodes.





photoshopgrl said:


> I mean, everyone is welcome to be wrong about this episode  but also remember the remaining are all extended episodes. They have plenty of time. I was thinking honestly that if the NK battle is next week then that still leaves 3 feature length episodes to deal with the throne battle. That's a lot for me! I have always loved the character driven episodes more than the battle ones anyhow but that's just me.


I'm with you...there's really not much outstanding. The only major things are the Night King (which has already been set up as an "easy" win...kill the NK, kill his army); Cersei; and determining the final occupant(s) of the throne. Four extra-length episodes should be plenty, especially since this episode cleared so much of the emotional baggage from the table (I feared, but did not believe, that Jaime's issues would drag on).


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm with you...there's really not much outstanding. The only major things are the Night King (which has already been set up as an "easy" win...kill the NK, kill his army); Cersei; and determining the final occupant(s) of the throne. Four extra-length episodes should be plenty, especially since this episode cleared so much of the emotional baggage from the table (I feared, but did not believe, that Jaime's issues would drag on).


Here's where I wonder if the writers of the TV series and GRRM will differ if he ever gets around to finishing the books. My feeling, is that GRRM always intended the end to the series to be the final battle between "ice" and "fire", meaning the battle between the living and dead, but it appears THAT battle will take place in E3 (maybe into E4) and the final battle will be between Cersie and Dany, at least in the TV series. The "Game of Thrones" was really a book in the series "A Song of Ice and Fire" wasn't it? The producers decided to make THAT the central theme, rather than the series title. I guess we'll find out.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

It would be really weird to end a multi-novel series with a battle and then have no aftermath.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I've often wondered about that. My guess is that the wights can be killed the same way you kill a living person. That makes the mostly dead. Mostly dead means slightly...er...wrong thread...I'm assuming they can be resurrected by the NK.
> 
> I'm also assuming that if you kill them with dragon glass, dragon fire, or valerian steel, they are completely dead.


At one battle "Hardhome?" that is exactly what happened. The Wights that were defeated were *raised* again by the NK.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> It would be really weird to end a multi-novel series with a battle and then have no aftermath.


The aftermath could be a chapter or two talking about what happened after, but not necessarily a big battle for the Throne. After all, even in the TV Series the "Throne" has been somewhat marginalized because of the battle with TNK.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

vertigo235 said:


> At one battle "Hardhome?" that is exactly what happened. The Wights that were defeated were *raised* again by the NK.


Was it the wights or just the humans that had died during the battle that he resurrected and Jon and co were rowing away from the land??


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Was it the wights or just the humans that had died during the battle that he resurrected and Jon and co were rowing away from the land??


I thought it was both? but I have not re watched recently so I'm not certain. I'll pay attention on my second viewing (which will happen if I'm satisfied with the ending)


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

vertigo235 said:


> I thought it was both? but I have not re watched recently so I'm not certain. I'll pay attention on my second viewing (which will happen if I'm satisfied with the ending)


I haven't watched it recently either so now I'm curious if you're right. Anyone know for sure??


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Was it the wights or just the humans that had died during the battle that he resurrected and Jon and co were rowing away from the land??


I only remember the fallen Wildlings and Night's Watch being raised by the NK. Also, during the battles it sure seemed like the living were "killing" wights with traditional weapons.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> <snip>
> 
> Brienne and Jaime made me happy too. Him knighting her was about as awesome as it gets. It's everything she deserves and I'm sure she's going to promptly die next week now. This show barely gives you anything good. I suspect Theon will die defending Bran as well.


I do believe this is the first time that Brienne smiled in the entire series. Fantastic attention to detail.

If I had to choose someone to defend the most important person, at least in the supposition of this episode, Theon wouldn't be the one! He very recently ditched his sister instead of trying to save him, and the Iron Born aren't the best natural swords. He did get training being raised at Winterfell, but wouldn't you want a better swordsman? Brienne? Mormont? Anyone?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> The aftermath could be a chapter or two talking about what happened after, but not necessarily a big battle for the Throne. After all, even in the TV Series the "Throne" has been somewhat marginalized because of the battle with TNK.


I'm not even sure how big a battle it will be. Cersei is depending on the living and the dead beating to crap out of each other, leaving the survivor weak enough for her to take on. But although no doubt the battle between the living and the dead will be a spectacular piece of television, one swing of the sword could (I think will) end it when somebody (Jon?) kills the Night King. Which could leave their army largely intact, and lead to a brutal surprise for Cersei. That battle could start with most of her followers abandoning her when they see who's going to win, and then go downhill for Cersei from there...


tivotvaddict said:


> If I had to choose someone to defend the most important person, at least in the supposition of this episode, Theon wouldn't be the one! He very recently ditched his sister instead of trying to save him, and the Iron Born aren't the best natural swords. He did get training being raised at Winterfell, but wouldn't you want a better swordsman? Brienne? Mormont? Anyone?


Don't forget the little girl. The crypt seems to be where they're sending people who are basically useless, but insist on being useful. And I stress again, isn't it weird that they're blithely sending their defenseless people to hide from the dead in...a crypt? (For photoshopgrl's sake: ) Where lots and lots of DEAD PEOPLE ARE BURIED?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Well, I would assume that most of the dead people buried in the crypt have long decomposed and turned into dust. But I do agree that a couple/a few of them could rise and cause a problem.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I<snip>
> 
> Don't forget the little girl. The crypt seems to be where they're sending people who are basically useless, but insist on being useful. And I stress again, isn't it weird that they're blithely sending their defenseless people to hide from the dead in...a crypt? (For photoshopgrl's sake: ) Where lots and lots of DEAD PEOPLE ARE BURIED?


Oh yes, the little girl! Who, very tellingly, had an actual name in the closed captioning for the show.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Contains extensive book facts but no spoilers:
> 
> How "Jenny's Song" Could Foreshadow Jon and Daenerys's Future on 'Game of Thrones'


And of course, Podrick can sing.  
Thank you for this link. I quite enjoyed the song in the show, and as the end credits. One of the few times i listened throughout the entire credits. Enjoyed learning the GOT history attached to it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I haven't watched it recently either so now I'm curious if you're right. Anyone know for sure??


I just watched it last night and the place was full of people standing up...they concentrated on the recently dead for closeups (such as the mother who had sent her 2 kids on the boat) but it sure seemed like everyone got up, including wights.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tivotvaddict said:


> Oh yes, the little girl! Who, very tellingly, had an actual name in the closed captioning for the show.


Well, the little girl was disfigured and reminded the Onion Knight of Stannis' daughter...But I agree that they made too big a deal out of all the women and children going into the crypt for it to be a nothing-burger...


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## Hercules67 (Dec 8, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Here's where I wonder if the writers of the TV series and GRRM will differ if he ever gets around to finishing the books. My feeling, is that GRRM always intended the end to the series to be the final battle between "ice" and "fire", meaning the battle between the living and dead, but it appears THAT battle will take place in E3 (maybe into E4) and the final battle will be between Cersie and Dany, at least in the TV series. The "Game of Thrones" was really a book in the series "A Song of Ice and Fire" wasn't it? The producers decided to make THAT the central theme, rather than the series title. I guess we'll find out.


I think that's an awesome point.

In a way, the previous season showed that Cersei and Danny would fight it out for the Iron Throne and Danny "could win", but they now established (on the TV show) that their fight won't happen until after the NK is defeated.

I seriously suspect, that Danny, with 3 Dragons instead of 2 will take the Iron Throne in the books, THEN take on the NK, and then the Danny and Jon "conflict" will be the last one to be resolved.

But I am guessing as to the differences.

Who knows, we might be surprised enough to have the NK play a role in the final resolution.....


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I love Podrick.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Many of the weights are walking skeletons. The NK can resurrect then but he cannot regenerate their muscles and tendons, or reattach severed limbs and heads.

I, too, think the battle could (should?) be short. But I seriously doubt it will be.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Hercules67 said:


> I think that's an awesome point.
> 
> In a way, the previous season showed that Cersei and Danny would fight it out for the Iron Throne and Danny "could win", but they now established (on the TV show) that their fight won't happen until after the NK is defeated.
> 
> ...


I have a feeling that the books - if ever finished - will have a much more complex ending than the show.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Here's where I wonder if the writers of the TV series and GRRM will differ if he ever gets around to finishing the books. My feeling, is that GRRM always intended the end to the series to be the final battle between "ice" and "fire", meaning the battle between the living and dead, but it appears THAT battle will take place in E3 (maybe into E4) and the final battle will be between Cersie and Dany, at least in the TV series. The "Game of Thrones" was really a book in the series "A Song of Ice and Fire" wasn't it? The producers decided to make THAT the central theme, rather than the series title. I guess we'll find out.


Who says that dany isn't fire and Jon Snow isn't ice?


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

I feel like knowing the battle against the white walkers being next week SPOILS that the living will win this battle because they can't have 3 more weeks of shows with the dead traveling to Cersai and finishing off the whole realm.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Dany's brother didn't survive and died from burns from the golden crown.


That could have been death by suffocation.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But a little odd that they wouldn't release it in advance. Out of context, it's very generic, but once you see the episode it takes on meaning...
> 
> For that matter, last week's title didn't exactly reveal anything. Maybe they're just getting into the habit because of what's coming..?


I heard the title of the next episode is "Winterfell Fell" -- but they don't want to let people know.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Interview with Maisie on her scene...
> 
> https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/21/game-of-thrones-maisie-williams-gendry
> 
> My wife blurted out "she's gained some weight" when we first saw her, so it was definitely noticeable (whatever it may be).


Food's a lot better and more plentiful at the Citadel than at Kratcher's Mountain Lodge and Recreation Center.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

dtle said:


> Am I the only who is disappointed that the spent another episode setting things up? The only new development is Jaime's acceptance and Jon telling Dany about his heritage.
> 
> The thing that really shocked me is that the cause of Bran's fall is a mystery. Do people even know that he was pushed, or do they think it was just an accident?


I love "night before the big battle" scenes and stories. I really loved last night's episode.

I do, however, wish we got more from the Bran/Tyrion conversation. Tyrion gives the "we're holed up in Winterfell with nothing to do" so might as well tell me and then the next scene he's with Jaime.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Who says that dany isn't fire and Jon Snow isn't ice?


That's what I've assumed pretty much all along...

And it's Fire AND Ice, not Fire VERSUS Ice! 


NatasNJ said:


> I feel like knowing the battle against the white walkers being next week SPOILS that the living will win this battle because they can't have 3 more weeks of shows with the dead traveling to Cersai and finishing off the whole realm.


What if the battle between the living and the dead lasts three episodes? 


uncdrew said:


> I do, however, wish we got more from the Bran/Tyrion conversation. Tyrion gives the "we're holed up in Winterfell with nothing to do" so might as well tell me and then the next scene he's with Jaime.


I assume there will be consequences from that conversation which they didn't want to spoil...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

tivotvaddict said:


> I do believe this is the first time that Brienne smiled in the entire series. Fantastic attention to detail.
> 
> If I had to choose someone to defend the most important person, at least in the supposition of this episode, Theon wouldn't be the one! He very recently ditched his sister instead of trying to save him, and the Iron Born aren't the best natural swords. He did get training being raised at Winterfell, but wouldn't you want a better swordsman? Brienne? Mormont? Anyone?


Yeah, that struck me as odd.

I get that Theon wants to repay countless debts, and sees himself as a hero (or someday hero) but I thought the adults at the table would be like "Hey good idea. Ok, Theon and Mormont, you guard Bran."

I know they couched it by flat out saying "if we protect him too much the Night King will never come" and "We'll be close by so we can come" but still. Theon?

I also didn't really get Sansa's hug for him. I get they bonded some as kids and there was the jumping into the snow scene, but Sansa is so cold to others who betray Starks that her actions to Theon didn't ring true to me.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not even sure how big a battle it will be. Cersei is depending on the living and the dead beating to crap out of each other, leaving the survivor weak enough for her to take on. But although no doubt the battle between the living and the dead will be a spectacular piece of television, one swing of the sword could (I think will) end it when somebody (Jon?) kills the Night King. Which could leave their army largely intact, and lead to a brutal surprise for Cersei. That battle could start with most of her followers abandoning her when they see who's going to win, and then go downhill for Cersei from there...


Dany survives with just 1 dragon and Cersei is done for. I mean she didn't even get her dragon-fighting elephants.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> I also didn't really get Sansa's hug for him. I get they bonded some as kids and there was the jumping into the snow scene, but Sansa is so cold to others who betray Starks that her actions to Theon didn't ring true to me.


They both survived Ramsay. That's gotta be a bond.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Interview with Bryan Cogman, who wrote this episode... some really interesting tidbits (no spoilers) ...

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/21/game-of-thrones-bryan-cogman-knight-seven-kingdoms-interview

_Game of Thrones_ co-executive producer Bryan Cogman penned the second episode of the final season, "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms," which devoted an hour to quietly spending time with fan-favorite characters before their apocalyptic battle against the Army of the Dead. While fans expected the six-episode final season to be action-packed (and it will be), the producers also felt it was important to slow down and savor the show's ensemble lineup of characters now that they're together in one place and facing what is almost certainly their last night all together.

"This episode is really a love letter to the characters," Cogman says. "With most of our battles you get about 15 minutes of calm-before-the-storm with the characters participating in that battle taking stock of where they are in their lives before the dam breaks. This is an entire episode of that so that episode 3 can hit the ground running."


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Robin said:


> They both survived Ramsay. That's gotta be a bond.


And more to the point, he saved her from Ramsay.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Robin said:


> They both survived Ramsay. That's gotta be a bond.


Fine point. But still...

He took their home.
He watched as she was raped and did nothing.

I dunno. For me, didn't work. I get that it does for others.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> Who says that dany isn't fire and Jon Snow isn't ice?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's what I've assumed pretty much all along...


I've always assumed (or at least since I first learned of the Jon parentage theory) that Jon alone is the embodiment of both ice and fire and, as the love child of a Stark and a Targaryen, is the song of ice and fire. However, I don't think that necessarily means he will wind up on the Iron Throne.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> Dany survives with just 1 dragon and Cersei is done for. I mean she didn't even get her dragon-fighting elephants.


dragon-fighting elephants...aka a feast for dragons 

As for Theon, he also betrayed Robb...but she had forgiven him by the time he left and she did try to get him to stay with her...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

NatasNJ said:


> I feel like knowing the battle against the white walkers being next week SPOILS that the living will win this battle because they can't have 3 more weeks of shows with the dead traveling to Cersai and finishing off the whole realm.


I'm not sure anyone thinks the NK is going to win; so I don't see the spoiler angle...


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## xuxa (Oct 8, 2001)

cbrrider said:


> Jon burned his hand on a lantern defending Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. So, not immune to heat/fire.


 but he might be after his resurrection


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> the hunky guy working metal by the fire and steam all around him...the only thing missing was a stripper pole!


I'm trying to think of an appropriate Forged In Fire joke.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Loved that Arya and the Hound made peace. Sansa and Dany almost making peace.


So do we think the Hound is now officially off her list?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeekiM said:


> So do we think the Hound is now officially off her list?


I think her list has become irrelevant. She has more important things on her mind.

Family. Survival of the human race. Blacksmith nookie.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

dtle said:


> Am I the only who is disappointed that the spent another episode setting things up? The only new development is Jaime's acceptance and Jon telling Dany about his heritage.
> 
> The thing that really shocked me is that the cause of Bran's fall is a mystery. Do people even know that he was pushed, or do they think it was just an accident?


My son shares your disappointment. He felt like it was yet another episode with a whole lot of nothing.

My personal believe is that it was too soon to go into battle... The magic of this series is that they know just how long they need to "bake" the story before taking it out of the oven... And I think the story needed to be baked another episode before serving up the big battle...

Now that the stage has been set, next week should be epic...

This is more like Rocky 1 and 2, and less like Rocky 3 and 4. The first two Rockys were great dramatic works of art. The 3rd and 4th were still good and entertaining to me...but they were more like rollercoaster rides...


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> I also didn't really get Sansa's hug for him. I get they bonded some as kids and there was the jumping into the snow scene, but Sansa is so cold to others who betray Starks that her actions to Theon didn't ring true to me.


And generally speaking, Theon laid waste to Winterfell, killing and beheading their people, and taking over... He seems to have given a "pass" way to easy here...


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

As for Theon. They both not only survived Ramsay but Sansa saw first hand just how entirely BROKEN Theon was by Ramsay. She heard Ramsay taunting him about the flaying and probably could only imagine part of the horror he endured. Yet when it came to her he found it somehow in himself to save her and was going to die to get her to the wall to Jon. He more than redeemed himself to her I feel. I thought the hug was amazing and it made me very happy because I have a soft spot for Theon now. IMO he's the most tragic character in this entire series and I'm pretty sure he's going to die next week.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

I loved Brienne being knighted, especially by Jaime. And his saying he wanted to serve under her. There's a part of me that hopes they both survive and end up together. Although, Brienne ending up with Tormund would be pretty epic, too.

The whole scene around the fireplace was awesome.

Am I the only one that felt that Arya and Gendry getting together felt forced rather than a natural coming together? That whole scene really felt off to me.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

They have shown us that Arya and Gendry really liked each other, but I do agree the sex wasn't a continuation of that. Also, the look on her face as they lay in bed after (where did they get the bed?) was strange...

Maybe Gendry just isn't very good at that...


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)




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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Maybe Gendry just isn't very good at that...


Just like his father (according to Cersei), perhaps.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

The more I ruminate on this episode, the higher it goes on my list of all time great episodes.

The Arya/Gendry hookup scene is great *because* it's uncomfortable. There is a strong history of not just a friendship, but a flirtation. In an ideal world, we'd have more time for that flirtation to build and develop until sex seems like a natural outcome. Instead, they're facing the end of the world and the very high likelihood of death. If you were told the world was ending tomorrow, how would you spend your remaining hours? It is entirely natural to want to connect with someone, to experience all that life has to offer, before you die the next day.

A review I read (will have to figure out which one) mentioned that the scene is so uncomfortable because we have a hard time reconciling that people we have come to know as children do indeed grow up into adults that, _as is quite normal and indeed expected biological development_ are sexual beings.


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## HIHZia (Nov 3, 2004)

PJO1966 said:


>


Is it bad that I immediately knew what movie that grab is from?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I loved this episode so much. I was so glad they took the time to pay off all the character moments and allow everyone one final chance to feel good. This was basically an entire episode written as a love letter to the fans, allowing all the characters to have those final interactions that we weren't sure would ever come.

Think about all the amazing things we saw in this episode:
-Brienne publicly vouching for Jaime
-Bran subtly letting Jaime know that he knows Jaime pushed him
-Sansa publicly acknowledging her deep respect for Brienne
-Tyrion acknowledging he hasn't been very effective as Hand of the Queen
-Arya showing her formidable skills to Gendry, so he wouldn't think of her as a helpless little girl
-Jaime apologizing to Bran and Bran saying Jaime wouldn't be able to help in the coming fight if Bran allowed everyone to murder Jaime first
-A great conversation between Jaime and Tyrion about how they've both been duped and manipulated by Cersei
-Jaime telling Brienne he'd be honored to serve under her command
-Jorah talking to Dany and pointing out that Tyrion learns from his mistakes and that she should continue to trust him
-The fabulous scene between Dany and Sansa, where they seemed to be genuinely starting to like each other, before Sansa asked a very difficult question and they were rudely interrupted
-Sansa embracing Theon
-Davos getting a chance to show his affection for the little girl that clearly reminded him of Shireen
-The reunion of the Night's Watch brothers when Edd, Sam, and John meet up, along with Tormund and Beric
-The strategy session where Bran reveals the fact that the Night King will be gunning for him, and Dany professes her faith in Tyrion
-Tyrion and Bran getting a chance to talk (I'm sure there will be more to this revealed later)
-Missandei and Grey Worm having their touching (final?) moment together
-John and Sam talking about whether John has discussed his parentage with Dany, and then Edd joins them to reminisce about the Night's Watch
-The incredible scene around the fire in the Great Hall where Tormund reveals the source of his strength, Jaime bestows knighthood on Brienne, and Podrick shows off his pipes
-Arya having some final words with The Hound
-Arya seeking out Gendry and being firmly in control of their "encounter"
-The payoff of the Mormont issue between Jorah and Lyanna
-The very touching scene where Samwell gives Heartsbane to Jorah because Samwell learned how to be a man from Jeor
-John finally revealing the truth of his parentage to Dany and her being justifiably skeptical
-The arrival of the Army of the Dead

It's almost as if the writers all sat in a room and said, "What issues are out there between any of these characters?" and then proceeded to write an episode paying off every possible thing before most of these characters will die in the Battle.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

My Monday morning thoughts. I enjoyed the episode but now I've decided it was a repeat of last week with some parts removed and some expanded. They could have done all this last week and done more to move the story along. There were some great moments, mostly done better than last week and I am not a fan of big battles so I still prefer this kind of episode.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

MikeekiM said:


> So do we think the Hound is now officially off her list?


The Hound has been off her list for a couple seasons now. Remember when the waif was teaching her to lie? One of her lies was that Sandor was still on her list and she got smacked for saying it. The waif knew, even if Arya wasn't admitting it to herself.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> As for Theon. They both not only survived Ramsay but Sansa saw first hand just how entirely BROKEN Theon was by Ramsay. She heard Ramsay taunting him about the flaying and probably could only imagine part of the horror he endured. Yet when it came to her he found it somehow in himself to save her and was going to die to get her to the wall to Jon. He more than redeemed himself to her I feel. I thought the hug was amazing and it made me very happy because I have a soft spot for Theon now. IMO he's the most tragic character in this entire series and I'm pretty sure he's going to die next week.


Yeah, I get what the writers want us to think/feel about the relationship. Perhaps I'm less forgiving than others. I wouldn't be hugging the person who did all those things to me. He wouldn't be forgiven, he wouldn't be trusted, he wouldn't be a friend. Perhaps the good things he did make it so I wouldn't kill him, but not much more.

He dies, I don't care much. He should have been killed several times over by now. Heck, didn't he burn two little boys?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Yeah, I get what the writers want us to think/feel about the relationship. Perhaps I'm less forgiving than others. I wouldn't be hugging the person who did all those things to me. He wouldn't be forgiven, he wouldn't be trusted, he wouldn't be a friend. Perhaps the good things he did make it so I wouldn't kill him, but not much more.
> 
> He dies, I don't care much. He should have been killed several times over by now. Heck, didn't he burn two little boys?


But that was (as Jaime said this week) a different person.

And I think Sansa gets that more than anybody, being her own kind of different person these days.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Few questions:

Did Sam give or loan his sword to Jorah? Though perhaps when you think you're dying the finer details don't really matter.

Did y'all take Tormund's story about being suckled by a giant for 3 months to be truth? I thought it was a tall tale.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But that was (as Jaime said this week) a different person.
> 
> And I think Sansa gets that more than anybody, being her own kind of different person these days.


Yes, I get they want us to think that - it's not that deep a concept. Some of us just aren't buying it. I'm sure you've watched shows and movies and read books where the writers just don't convince you of something. This was one of those moments for me.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> Yes, I get they want us to think that - it's not that deep a concept. Some of us just aren't buying it. I'm sure you've watched shows and movies and read books where the writers just don't convince you of something. This was one of those moments for me.


I don't really get where you're coming from here but I respect your right to have that opinion on it. Either way I think he's dead after next week anyhow.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Few questions:
> 
> Did Sam give or loan his sword to Jorah? Though perhaps when you think you're dying the finer details don't really matter.
> 
> Did y'all take Tormund's story about being suckled by a giant for 3 months to be truth? I thought it was a tall tale.


Is there much of House Tarly left to return it to? Sam already said he can't wield it, so even if he's restored to his titles, the sword won't do him much good. Besides, the Watch owes the Mormonts a sword


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

wprager said:


> Many of the weights are walking skeletons. The NK can resurrect then but he cannot regenerate their muscles and tendons, or reattach severed limbs and heads.
> 
> I, too, think the battle could (should?) be short. But I seriously doubt it will be.


That's one of the reasons they shouldn't be making swords and sharp weapons and should be making maces and blunt force weapons. The later are designed to break bones. That way even if the NK resurrected the wights, they wouldn't be able to move.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I assume there will be consequences from that conversation which they didn't want to spoil...


I figured they didn't show the Bran/Tyrion conversation since Tyrion asked how Bran got to be the way he is which would basically be the retelling of seasons 2 and 6.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

morac said:


> I figured they didn't show the Bran/Tyrion conversation since Tyrion asked how Bran got to be the way he is which would basically be the retelling of seasons 2 and 6.


And even retelling the entire story wouldn't really answer the question of how he got that way. It amounts to "I met a dude in a tree in the snow".


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Do you think Bran told Tyrion about Jon's parentage? They sat together immediately after meeting where Dany vouched for Tyrion's mind. An advisor close to Dany should know the "secret."
Also, Tyrion has expressed his concerns about succession planning; AFAAK Dany can't have children.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Arya and Gendry make perfect sense.

She wants to have sex below she dies. Who else would she choose? She doesn't love him, she trusts him. And she checked that he was suitably experienced.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or ride a dragon...


While it is believed that only Targaryens can ride dragons, it's not true. Many besides Targaryens rode dragons in old Valyria. And even if it were true, then anybody with Targaryen blood should be able to ride a dragon, such as Gendry, since the Baratheon line has Targaryen blood.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> Arya's nudity looked weird to me. Like she was wearing a flesh color body suit or it was heavily blurred...which I was OK with...


I thought she had a body double with her face CGI'ed on


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> That could have been death by suffocation.


He screamed in pain from the heat of the molten gold and the comment was made during it that he was no dragon.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's what I've assumed pretty much all along...
> 
> And it's Fire AND Ice, not Fire VERSUS Ice!


Exactly. A love song.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think her list has become irrelevant. She has more important things on her mind.


Hormones will do that to a girl.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I thought she had a body double with her face CGI'ed on


That's what I thought as well. The scene was shot in the typical fashion when a body double is used.

I enjoyed the Cogman interview. I will definitely rewatch the episode. Especially after his take on the scene at Lyanna's tomb.
Jon: "Your brother is my father."
Subconscious Jon: _"I'm in love with my Aunt."_
Dany: "You have a claim to the Iron Throne."
Subconscious Dany: _"You're trying to take my throne."_
Subconscious Jon: _"*That's* the first thing you think of?"_


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MikeekiM said:


> My son shares your disappointment. He felt like it was yet another episode with a whole lot of nothing.
> 
> My personal believe is that it was too soon to go into battle... The magic of this series is that they know just how long they need to "bake" the story before taking it out of the oven... And I think the story needed to be baked another episode before serving up the big battle...
> 
> ...


I think that because of that episode, it's going to hurt us viewers a WHOLE LOT when some of them are killed. At least for me, I have some very intimate feelings for some of the characters. We got the final look at each in a way that will make it THAT much more painful.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

The only problem I had with this episode is that once it was over, I couldn't watch the next one.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I thought she had a body double with her face CGI'ed on


I don't think so. The EW interview with Masie Williams posted above said they told her she had full control over what was shown. Plus, there wouldn't have been a scene where they would CGI on her face, since the scenes with her face were close-ups that didn't show anything, while the shot with sideboob and butt didn't have her face.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> The only problem I had with this episode is that once it was over, I couldn't watch the next one.


Yup. Especially after binging the entire series immediately before last week's episode. This last week was torture, as will the next week.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Another re-watch nit:

Jon and Dany sure seem to be alone down in the crypt when the AOTD arrives. Shouldn't all the people who are supposed to be sheltering in the crypt _already be there by then?_


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> Another re-watch nit:
> 
> Jon and Dany sure seem to be alone down in the crypt when the AOTD arrives. Shouldn't all the people who are supposed to be sheltering in the crypt _already be there by then?_


I'm guessing the crypt is much bigger than we thought (it must be, to hold all those people), and maybe J&D are in the private Stark wing of it..?

Could be the crypt is where everybody at Winterfell is interred, and not just the Starks.


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

Now that I think about it, part of me is wondering why once they new about the army of the dead, why they didn't dig up as many of the dead at Winterfell as they could and burn them.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I never considered that anyone who ever died could become a walker. I thought one of the creatures--not necessarily the King himself, but someone had to be there in the general time frame of the death. And most of the bodies in the crypt are probably as much ashes as if they had been burned.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I never considered that anyone who ever died could become a walker. I thought one of the creatures--not necessarily the King himself, but someone had to be there in the general time frame of the death. And most of the bodies in the crypt are probably as much ashes as if they had been burned.


Considering how some of the Army of the Dead are virtually skeletons, I'd say they were brought back a long, long time after death!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Considering how some of the Army of the Dead are virtually skeletons, I'd say they were brought back a long, long time after death!


Or they continued to decompose after being reanimated. That gets my vote. The dragon didn't look to be in great shape and it was reanimated almost immediately after dying.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tivotvaddict said:


> If you were told the world was ending tomorrow, how would you spend your remaining hours?


I would spend it exactly as I do now...unsuccessfully begging women to have sex with me! 



heySkippy said:


> The Hound has been off her list for a couple seasons now. Remember when the waif was teaching her to lie? One of her lies was that Sandor was still on her list and she got smacked for saying it. The waif knew, even if Arya wasn't admitting it to herself.


In fairness to Arya, she thought the Hound was dead.



uncdrew said:


> Yes, I get they want us to think that - it's not that deep a concept. Some of us just aren't buying it. I'm sure you've watched shows and movies and read books where the writers just don't convince you of something. This was one of those moments for me.


I find this comment very strange. Jaime is one of the better developed and changed characters on GOT. He is so complex that you can even make a case that he hardly changed at all!

We have seen that he is a decent person and we have seen how his love for his sister had twisted him. He has his own code of ethics and morality and he never deviated from those. We have seen the inner struggle and the growth. So I completely disagree with you!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Question: the episode starts with Dany telling Jaime that as a little girl, her father had told her about Jaime and how he killed the mad king and sat on the throne to gloat. That they spent her childhood day-dreaming about ways to get revenge.

Wasn't Dany born on the day the Targarians fell? wasn't the mad king her father and therefore unable to tell her stories as a little girl? I'm sure I'm missing something and would love for someone to explain it to me...


Edit...oops...she said my brother, not my father...nevermind!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

not only are the dead in the crypt decomposed, but they would have to dig up from 6 feet under to come out.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> Few questions:
> 
> Did y'all take Tormund's story about being suckled by a giant for 3 months to be truth? I thought it was a tall tale.


Of course it's true. A year later, he had sex with a bear!

But don't tell Ygritte about it


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

They have the 3-eyed raven and wargs, yet they needed Tormund and the Night's Watch to tell them where the NK and his army were? The army was less than a day away and they were going to be surprised by them? the concept of scouts is foreign to them?

sorry...comments from me as I watch the episode and nit-pick 

I still laugh out loud at every comment Tormund makes, then looks to see Brienne's reaction, and then we all see Brienne's reaction


----------



## jeetkunedo (Jul 24, 2006)

After reading all the theories here, I can't help but think about some of the things the cast, producers, and GMMR said about how the show ends. They're not really spoilers, but since they are statements made by people who know how the show ends, I'm going to spoilerize them.



Spoiler



Emilia Clarke (Dany) said she wandered around the city in a daze after reading the script for the final season.
The producers said none of the cast corrected guessed the ending.
GMMR said only a couple fans correctly guessed the ending. And that the ending was bittersweet.

Assuming they're not intentionally trying to misdirect us on the ending, I think that means the most popular theories are incorrect. So I doubt Jon and/or Dany will end up on the Iron Throne. I doubt anyone will. I think the ending won't be that simple.

In fact, I think that 99% of the theories out there are wrong. And that's fine by me. I like surprise endings, as long as they're done right.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> I find this comment very strange. Jaime is one of the better developed and changed characters on GOT. He is so complex that you can even make a case that he hardly changed at all!
> 
> We have seen that he is a decent person and we have seen how his love for his sister had twisted him. He has his own code of ethics and morality and he never deviated from those. We have seen the inner struggle and the growth. So I completely disagree with you!


He was talking about Theon not Jaime


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> He was talking about Theon not Jaime


Oops...I'm doing too many rosanne rosanna danna impressions today 

Loved watching Podrick teaching people how to fight!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Oops...I'm doing too many rosanne rosanna danna impressions today
> 
> Loved watching Podrick teaching people how to fight!


It's okay much of what you said in defense of Jaime can go for Theon too. Both have done horrible things and both suffered and bled for others and redeemed themselves. I love me some true character development!


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I was watching an episode of Graham Norton with Kit Harrington. He said something off the cuff that when I thought about it was a pretty major spoiler, and now I'm pissed.

It's speculation on my part, but I'll spoilerize because I wish I hadn't heard it.



Spoiler



Graham asked him if he took anything from the set. He said he has a statue of Jon Snow that's actually taller than he is. Why would there be a statue of Jon Snow? The only reason I can think of is that he dies and ends up in the Stark crypt. I can't come up with any other reason.


----------



## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> I was watching an episode of Graham Norton with Kit Harrington. He said something off the cuff that when I thought about it was a pretty major spoiler, and now I'm pissed.
> 
> It's speculation on my part, but I'll spoilerize because I wish I hadn't heard it.
> 
> ...


Not sure teaser trailers are spoilers, but it explains what you saw.



Spoiler








I'll just say the statue of Jon looks way older than that of Arya and Sansa.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

NatasNJ said:


> I feel like knowing the battle against the white walkers being next week SPOILS that the living will win this battle because they can't have 3 more weeks of shows with the dead traveling to Cersai and finishing off the whole realm.


One possibility that doesn't result in the living winning is that they are able to destroy most of the White Walkers and the wights using dragon glass and fire, but the Night King is able to escape. Due to the dragon glass and fire, the Night King is not able to raise anyone at Winterfell, and so needs to rebuild his army. Meanwhile, the relatively few remaining living escape to the Iron Islands where they debate what to do next. Do they let the Night King destroy Cersei and her armies thereby making him harder to kill or do they stand with Cersei knowing that she will have the throne if they win? Perhaps this will result in an opportunity for Arya to cross the final name off her list.

I wonder if the show will end with the Night King on the throne, alone, and with nobody to raise from the dead because they were all burned. King of the ashes indeed. Won't Petyr Baelish be jealous.



uncdrew said:


> I heard the title of the next episode is "Winterfell Fell" -- but they don't want to let people know.


I'm thinking it's "The Broken Army". They've been hinting at that title for the past two episodes!



uncdrew said:


> I know they couched it by flat out saying "if we protect him too much the Night King will never come" and "We'll be close by so we can come" but still. Theon?


They need their best fighters fighting the White Walkers and/or trying to take out the Night King from hiding. Theon is a good enough fighter to hold off the Night King long enough for Jon, Arya, or whoever is supposed to be taking him out to get there, perhaps at the cost of his own life. If they can't get there in time or the Night King sees the trap, having a better fighter wouldn't help much. And those better fighters are needed actively fighting the dead rather than standing around as meat shields.



astrohip said:


> Interview with Bryan Cogman, who wrote this episode... some really interesting tidbits (no spoilers) ...
> 
> 'Game of Thrones' writer breaks down 'play-like' season 8, episode 2's big scenes
> 
> ...


After how rushed last season felt to me, I was glad to have these two episodes of character development.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> And more to the point, he saved her from Ramsay.


And not just by helping her escape, but when they were about to be captured, he tried leading the pursuers away knowing that he was most likely to end up once again in Ramsay's torturous hands. And if Ramsay treated him poorly before, imagine how poorly he would have been treated having been the one who not only helped Sansa escape, but also killed Myranda.

Even though Theon ultimately ended up failing and his sacrifice turned out not to have been necessary (except perhaps for delaying the hunters long enough for Brienne to get there), Sansa saw what he was willing to do for her.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Even the 3-eyed raven doesn't know what dragon fire can do to the WWs or the Night King (we know it kills wights).

I like the theory of the NK losing most of his army and escaping back to the north. They rebuild the wall and the cycle repeats a thousand years later...

Isn't Bran the Builder the one who built the wall? and wasn't he also paralyzed? I seem to recall someone saying that and even a drawing showing Bran the Builder on what looked like a wheelchair...or did I imagine all that?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> not only are the dead in the crypt decomposed, but they would have to dig up from 6 feet under to come out.


That's not how crypts work...


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Isn't Bran the Builder the one who built the wall? and wasn't he also paralyzed? I seem to recall someone saying that and even a drawing showing Bran the Builder on what looked like a wheelchair...or did I imagine all that?


The Blu-Ray releases of each season contains a "Histories & Lore" special feature that provides extra backstory that isn't covered in the show itself.

The season 1 discs include this piece with Bran narrating the story of the Age of Heroes (around the time that The Wall was built -- 8000 years before the current story is taking place):





About 30 seconds in, he talks about Bran the Builder. In the artwork depicting Bran the Builder, he is shown sitting in some sort of large chair. The chair appears to be on a platform that can be carried around. Some have interpreted that as showing Bran the Builder was also unable to walk.


----------



## The Spud (Aug 28, 2002)

Speaking of all of the dead Starks, does anyone think that


Spoiler



Lady Stoneheart might make an appearance?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's not how crypts work...


I'm not being argumentative, I honestly do not know. How do crypts work? I don't see any above-ground coffins, only statues (with no names!).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The Spud said:


> Speaking of all of the dead Starks, does anyone think that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I think not. They've done absolutely nothing to set that up...


Anubys said:


> I'm not being argumentative, I honestly do not know. How do crypts work? I don't see any above-ground coffins, only statues (with no names!).


In a crypt, the bodies are in some kind of container above the floor...in this case, probably behind the statues. There were a lot of crypts in the cemetery in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

In more extreme examples (such as the Catacombs of Paris), there will be mass interments in niches in the walls. Crypts are usually above ground; Winterfell seems to be a combo catacomb/crypt. If it's just the Starks, then there will probably only be hundreds of dead down there (they've been there for thousands of years). If all the Winterfell dead are interred there...hoo boy!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

PJO1966 said:


> I was watching an episode of Graham Norton with Kit Harrington. He said something off the cuff that when I thought about it was a pretty major spoiler, and now I'm pissed.
> 
> It's speculation on my part, but I'll spoilerize because I wish I hadn't heard it.
> 
> ...


I can, so rest easy 



Spoiler: Spoiler only if you read PJO's spoiler



The last episode contains scenes from thousands of years later and the crypt would obviously have a statue of him at Winterfell


----------



## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

The Spud said:


> Speaking of all of the dead Starks, does anyone think that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


That is one story arc I wish they included in the TV series.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't really get where you're coming from here but I respect your right to have that opinion on it. Either way I think he's dead after next week anyhow.


Thank you.

Yes, I'm being stubborn. I think you/anyone can understand not forgiving someone who did a lot of bad things to you. That's where I'm coming from. Yes, he's trying to make up for all that bad, but the count is still against him. He certainly hasn't earned full trust and hugs and tears.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> Is there much of House Tarly left to return it to? Sam already said he can't wield it, so even if he's restored to his titles, the sword won't do him much good. Besides, the Watch owes the Mormonts a sword


Well he's got kids (and more coming). I do think he gave it to him for keepsies, but something about the initial exchange left me with a "You can use this, I'll be in the basement" vibe.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

nirisahn said:


> Now that I think about it, part of me is wondering why once they new about the army of the dead, why they didn't dig up as many of the dead at Winterfell as they could and burn them.


Fine point.

Either they're pre-occupied or just dense, which is unlikely. They've said the word "crypt" 100 times and there are some sharp minds in the bunch. Someone would have said "aren't there dead peeps up under here"?

More likely is they know why the dead in the crypt aren't an issue.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> I was watching an episode of Graham Norton with Kit Harrington. He said something off the cuff that when I thought about it was a pretty major spoiler, and now I'm pissed.
> 
> It's speculation on my part, but I'll spoilerize because I wish I hadn't heard it.
> 
> ...





Spoiler



It could be that they end the entire series with a shot of Bran Stark VIII, viewing the crypt 600 years from now. That would be corny, but possible.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Yes, I'm being stubborn. I think you/anyone can understand not forgiving someone who did a lot of bad things to you. That's where I'm coming from. Yes, he's trying to make up for all that bad, but the count is still against him. He certainly hasn't earned full trust and hugs and tears.


I agree with you, but Jon has also forgiven Theon (I think - I can't remember how that scene resolved last season). She was in Kings Landing getting snubbed by Joffrey and then Loras when Theon took Winterfell. Most of her direct experience with him was while they were growing up (he was Ned's ward) and then as he rescued her from the Boltons. So, I guess I'm kind of ambivalent on the embrace.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Well he's got kids (and more coming). I do think he gave it to him for keepsies, but something about the initial exchange left me with a "You can use this, I'll be in the basement" vibe.


Wasn't one of the main reasons he took the sword in the first place because he knew they'd need all the Valyrian steel they could get? He knew he'd never wield it himself.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Don't sleep on Varys. It's been his "play" all along to get the Dothraki to Westeros while the realm was at war, and reinstate a Targaryen as ruler. Dany upped the ante by bringing an army of Unsullied as well.

Whatever happened to Illyrio, anyway?

I always considered Varys and Baelish the main opponents in the "Game," and Petr's been removed from the competition.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> I always considered Varys and Baelish the main opponents in the "Game," and Petr's been removed from the competition.


I think that's what THEY thought, but events have passed them by...they overestimated themselves (Baelish more than Varys).


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think not. They've done absolutely nothing to set that up...
> 
> In a crypt, the bodies are in some kind of container above the floor...in this case, probably behind the statues. There were a lot of crypts in the cemetery in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
> 
> In more extreme examples (such as the Catacombs of Paris), there will be mass interments in niches in the walls. Crypts are usually above ground; Winterfell seems to be a combo catacomb/crypt. If it's just the Starks, then there will probably only be hundreds of dead down there (they've been there for thousands of years). If all the Winterfell dead are interred there...hoo boy!


Hmm. I always associated crypts with below ground. Mausoleums are above. I guess a mausoleum is a subset of crypts.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

MacThor said:


> I agree with you, but Jon has also forgiven Theon (I think - I can't remember how that scene resolved last season). She was in Kings Landing getting snubbed by Joffrey and then Loras when Theon took Winterfell. Most of her direct experience with him was while they were growing up (he was Ned's ward) and then as he rescued her from the Boltons. So, I guess I'm kind of ambivalent on the embrace.


It was on the beach at Dragonstone, after the IronBorn had rescued him from jumping in the sea (and not saving Yara). Jon approached Theon and basically said they only reason I'm not killing you right now is because of what you did for Sansa.

(My GOT marathon binge in last few weeks makes it easier to remember these things )


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tivotvaddict said:


> It was on the beach at Dragonstone, after the IronBorn had rescued him from jumping in the sea (and not saving Yara). Jon approached Theon and basically said they only reason I'm not killing you right now is because of what you did for Sansa.
> 
> (My GOT marathon binge in last few weeks makes it easier to remember these things )


But later on, when Theon was leaving, he told him for that which he could forgive, he does.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MacThor said:


> I agree with you, but Jon has also forgiven Theon (I think - I can't remember how that scene resolved last season). She was in Kings Landing getting snubbed by Joffrey and then Loras when Theon took Winterfell. Most of her direct experience with him was while they were growing up (he was Ned's ward) and then as he rescued her from the Boltons. So, I guess I'm kind of ambivalent on the embrace.


Forgiving him I can almost get my head around. Running to him and hugging him and crying (especially when you didn't do that for your own blood and family) was my nit.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MacThor said:


> Wasn't one of the main reasons he took the sword in the first place because he knew they'd need all the Valyrian steel they could get? He knew he'd never wield it himself.


I don't know. Makes sense but I might have missed when that was discussed.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> Forgiving him I can almost get my head around. Running to him and hugging him and crying (especially when you didn't do that for your own blood and family) was my nit.


But she's hugged all her returning family too!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> But she's hugged all her returning family too!


Wasn't at all the same though. Not sure I have the energy to find all the footage, but I'd be curious to watch all the reunion scenes for Sansa.


----------



## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Forgiving him I can almost get my head around. Running to him and hugging him and crying (especially when you didn't do that for your own blood and family) was my nit.


Yeah... I am with you on this one... I am not even sure I can get around forgiving him... Even with all the good that he has tried to do after all of his betrayal... I don't believe the scale is even close to be in-balance.

That said, I will run with it... I am willing to accept this from the writers and won't let it ruin my viewing experience...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> Wasn't at all the same though. Not sure I have the energy to find all the footage, but I'd be curious to watch all the reunion scenes for Sansa.


Bran: 



Jon: 



Arya: 




I'd say her reaction was the same definitely for Bran and Jon and her and Arya weren't exactly the closest before so their little back and forth before the hug made perfect sense for them both.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think not. They've done absolutely nothing to set that up...
> 
> In a crypt, the bodies are in some kind of container above the floor...in this case, probably behind the statues. There were a lot of crypts in the cemetery in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
> 
> In more extreme examples (such as the Catacombs of Paris), there will be mass interments in niches in the walls. Crypts are usually above ground; Winterfell seems to be a combo catacomb/crypt. If it's just the Starks, then there will probably only be hundreds of dead down there (they've been there for thousands of years). If all the Winterfell dead are interred there...hoo boy!


Although the Night King trying to raise the dead of Paris would be a real mess since the bones in the catacombs are mostly sorted by bone type rather than keeping an individual's bones all together! (Also there seem to be a relative shortage of skulls; so you'd have headless Wights!)


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

uncdrew said:


> Fine point.
> 
> Either they're pre-occupied or just dense, which is unlikely. They've said the word "crypt" 100 times and there are some sharp minds in the bunch. Someone would have said "aren't there dead peeps up under here"?
> 
> More likely is they know why the dead in the crypt aren't an issue.


Has it ever been shown of people that died NOT at the hands of the white walkers turn into white walkers? Or is it like zombies were you have to be turned by the zombies while alive (is that actually a thing with zombies?? Now I'm not sure.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Forgiving him I can almost get my head around. Running to him and hugging him and crying (especially when you didn't do that for your own blood and family) was my nit.


He was "family." He was given to the Starks as a son.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> He was "family." He was given to the Starks as a son.


Makes all the betrayals even harder to forgive.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Makes all the betrayals even harder to forgive.


Not for me. I agreed with Sansa. He is a different person. But it was a greeting for a family member you forgave.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

From a deleted scene, Sansa says to Theon: "just when I think you couldn't possibly be any more of a traitor, you go and do something like this. AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!".


----------



## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Well, I would assume that most of the dead people buried in the crypt have long decomposed and turned into dust. But I do agree that a couple/a few of them could rise and cause a problem.


I've always thought you have to be turned at the moment of death to become a wight. Then again, my word, would that be incredible if the crypt turns into another squadron of dead!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Odds Bodkins said:


> I've always thought you have to be turned at the moment of death to become a wight.


That's pretty clearly not the case, given the state of decomposition of a lot of the wights...

And we've seen some wights "awaken" well after their deaths (although hours or days rather than years or centuries).


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's pretty clearly not the case, given the state of decomposition of a lot of the wights...
> 
> And we've seen some wights "awaken" well after their deaths (although hours or days rather than years or centuries).


First point not so much. The wight dragon is pretty decomposed and he was made a wight pretty quickly.

Second point more accurate but still doesn't mean "right away."


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Not sure if that's decomposition or just the natural effects of being shot down and then dredged out of a lake...

And not sure what you mean by "still doesn't mean 'right away'"; that was my point...


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Didn't some skeletal wights pop up out of the snow near the tree-cave of the Three-Eyed Raven?


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not sure if that's decomposition or just the natural effects of being shot down and then dredged out of a lake...
> 
> And not sure what you mean by "still doesn't mean 'right away'"; that was my point...


There should have been very little decomposition while at the bottom of the frozen lake since that's basically like being in a freezer. As such all the decomposition would had to have come after it was raised.

Speaking of which, it makes sense for the NK to bring winter with him wherever he goes as his army wouldn't last long in warm weather.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MacThor said:


> Didn't some skeletal wights pop up out of the snow near the tree-cave of the Three-Eyed Raven?


Some skeletal wights did pop up when Jojen, Meera, Bran, and Hodor were approaching the TER's tree. But I don't think those were dead that were just suddenly reanimated. It felt to me a lot more like those wights had been specifically placed there to attack anyone that might try to reach the TER's tree, and so they had already been reanimated and were simply lying in wait.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Some skeletal wights did pop up when Jojen, Meera, Bran, and Hodor were approaching the TER's tree. But I don't think those were dead that were just suddenly reanimated. It felt to me a lot more like those wights had been specifically placed there to attack anyone that might try to reach the TER's tree, and so they had already been reanimated and were simply lying in wait.


That was my assumption as well.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> There should have been very little decomposition while at the bottom of the frozen lake since that's basically like being in a freezer. As such all the decomposition would had to have come after it was raised.


Not sure if that's decomposition or just the natural effects of being shot down and then dredged out of a lake...


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

morac said:


> Speaking of which, it makes sense for the NK to bring winter with him wherever he goes as his army wouldn't last long in warm weather.


We've heard that winter comes to Westeros in odd times--sometimes long and sometimes short. But does it go all the way to Dorne or whatever else is in the south? What about across the Narrow Sea? I would assume that would be winter too. What if the Narrow Sea would freeze? Then no one would be safe.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

morac said:


> Speaking of which, it makes sense for the NK to bring winter with him wherever he goes as his army wouldn't last long in warm weather.


That was my thought as well. The Night King's magic simply animates the bodies. It doesn't give them life. So they are still decaying.

Even if that's not the case, and all wights stay preserved in whatever state they were in when they were animated, it's also possible that the Night King's magic needs to be "in effect" when a person dies in order for their body to be animated even if they aren't animated right away.

So anyone who died south of the Wall before it was breached cannot be animated by the Night King or a White Walker.

Regardless of what the explanation is, I really hope Team Targaryen either burned all the bodies or knew that they wouldn't be a threat. I would find it really hard to believe that everyone was doing all this preparation, and nobody even considered that possibility.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

I am more and more attached to the theory that the Night King is not at Winterfell.

1. Remember Daenerys's vision from season 2? A ruined Kings Landing, a snowy Red Keep with a hole in the roof over the Iron Throne? Stuff gets put in the show for a reason. That vision needs to be fulfilled *somehow.*
EDIT: as internet peeps point out, Bran "saw" it too.

2. The leadership team thinks they know how to win the war: kill the Night King and voila. What if the Night King doesn't show up?

3. We didn't see the NK at the end of ep2. We only saw a couple? of white walkers.

4. Kings Landing has no anti-aircraft  weapons. Kings Landing has no dragonglass. A single Night King on zombie Viserion could lay waste to the whole place and its one million future wights.

5. It seems to me if the dead fight at Winterfell, *and* Dany's vision comes true by them marching to Kings Landing after that, that means that the living are done for and the dead win forever. I don't believe that the show will end that way.

6. I have a suspicion that Bronn's new crossbow may play a part in this plot development, as well.

Game of Thrones' new theory says Night King is on his way to King's Landing. Here's all the proof - 24x7Times

There's A REALLY Good Theory About The Night King Going Around And It Will Wreck You


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

An alternate (and, I dare say, more plausible theory) is that the Wall's magic limited the power of the NK (I say limited because a couple were animated at Castle Black) to at or near the wall and could not reach the dead far beyond that.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Marco said:


> I am more and more attached to the theory that the Night King is not at Winterfell.
> 
> 1. Remember Daenerys's vision from season 2? A ruined Kings Landing, a snowy Red Keep with a hole in the roof over the Iron Throne? Stuff gets put in the show for a reason. That vision needs to be fulfilled *somehow.*
> 
> ...


I clicked "like" but that's not enough for me. I agree with everything you say, especially about Bronn and the DragonBow (Trademark pending!).


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Marco said:


> I am more and more attached to the theory that the Night King is not at Winterfell.
> 
> 1. Remember Daenerys's vision from season 2? A ruined Kings Landing, a snowy Red Keep with a hole in the roof over the Iron Throne? Stuff gets put in the show for a reason. That vision needs to be fulfilled *somehow.*
> EDIT: as internet peeps point out, Bran "saw" it too.
> ...


The entire post is a lot. My brain is still processing it.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> From a deleted scene, Sansa says to Theon: "just when I think you couldn't possibly be any more of a traitor, you go and do something like this. AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!".


Good point. Even when they hit you over the head with it it's still not believable.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not sure if that's decomposition or just the natural effects of being shot down and then dredged out of a lake...
> 
> And not sure what you mean by "still doesn't mean 'right away'"; that was my point...


Good point.

Getting hit by a magical ice spear may certainly do incredible damage.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I'm starting to root for a Night King victory, with a very small handful of people living. 

At this point having the good guys win is just going to be a bit "1 in a million" type of thing and I'm not sure they can pull that off. Assuming Night King has some of a functioning brain left... the guy's been waiting a long time I think he can play the long game here and not expose himself. Let the dead win the battles, get more dead. Rinse, repeat.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Marco said:


> I am more and more attached to the theory that the Night King is not at Winterfell.
> 
> 1. Remember Daenerys's vision from season 2? A ruined Kings Landing, a snowy Red Keep with a hole in the roof over the Iron Throne? Stuff gets put in the show for a reason. That vision needs to be fulfilled *somehow.*
> EDIT: as internet peeps point out, Bran "saw" it too.
> ...


Haven't read your links yet but #1 / #5 I don't understand. Say Dany wins at Winterfell. She already intends to go storm King's Landing. Maybe the dragon lays waste to it. Maybe tyrion blows it up.

Why would the Night King care that much about King's Landing?


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Why would the Night King care that much about King's Landing?


1. Because it's a source of about one million future wights

2. Because it's Tokyo to his Godzilla


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

The thing about the Night King winning is that we basically know nothing about him, maybe we will learn more about him in the next episode or 2, but without knowing any of his backstory it will be pretty unfulfilling for him to win.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Marco said:


> 1. Because it's a source of about one million future wights
> 
> 2. Because it's Tokyo to his Godzilla


#1 makes sense. Seems like a big risk considering they already developed anti-dragon weapons, but perhaps he has spies who can tell him that they were destroyed and no more exist.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> #1 makes sense. Seems like a big risk considering they already developed anti-dragon weapons, but perhaps he has spies who can tell him that they were destroyed and no more exist.


Kings Landing developed anti-dragon weapons?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Marco said:


> Kings Landing developed anti-dragon weapons?


You don't recall the big ass crossbow that almost took down Drogon?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Everything you missed in the epic 'Game of Thrones' dragon battle


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

Thank you for the reminder about the scorpion ...

... and for the reminder that the scorpion was then burnt to a crisp.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Haven't read your links yet but #1 / #5 I don't understand. Say Dany wins at Winterfell. She already intends to go storm King's Landing. Maybe the dragon lays waste to it. Maybe tyrion blows it up.
> 
> Why would the Night King care that much about King's Landing?


Well, it would be hard to conquer the world without conquering King's Landing!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Marco said:


> Thank you for the reminder about the scorpion ...
> 
> ... and for the reminder that the scorpion was then burnt to a crisp.


If only they could create like 10 more of them.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

So at the end of this episode, we see a lot of WWs about a mile or so away from a city/castle. We assume it's Winterfell.

Can anyone confirm that based on the silhoutte? I assume it is... 

I get that the Night King wasn't shown with them, and I kind of see a reason he'd go take Kings Landing real quick. But something about that doesn't feel quite right to me.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Marco said:


> Thank you for the reminder about the scorpion ...
> 
> ... and for the reminder that the scorpion was then burnt to a crisp.


Though there is a scorpion in the new intro - it's inside Kings Landing and pointed at a dragon skull. So who knows what that means, but it seems they don't want us to forget about it.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> If only they could create like 10 more of them.


Cersei's not really that farsighted.

But I admit this is a potential problem for the NK.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Marco said:


> I am more and more attached to the theory that the Night King is not at Winterfell.
> 
> 1. Remember Daenerys's vision from season 2? A ruined Kings Landing, a snowy Red Keep with a hole in the roof over the Iron Throne? Stuff gets put in the show for a reason. That vision needs to be fulfilled *somehow.*


If for no other reason, that vision gives this theory some credence. And it does put all the right pieces in the right places for the final few episodes.

The writers have done a good job of not falling into trope traps and cliche come-ons. Everyone has been assuming the Battle of Winterfell first, then the Battle for Westeros/Iron Throne next. This would really turn that on its head. And in a way that makes sense.

Sunday should be... interesting.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

astrohip said:


> If for no other reason, that vision gives this theory some credence. And it does put all the right pieces in the right places for the final few episodes.
> 
> The writers have done a good job of not falling into trope traps and cliche come-ons. Everyone has been assuming the Battle of Winterfell first, then the Battle for Westeros/Iron Throne next. This would really turn that on its head. And in a way that makes sense.
> 
> Sunday should be... interesting.


So the main army is at Winterfell and ready to fight. Battle could start any second.

Night King on Dragon could obviously be at Kings Landing by now, but not with any army on foot. So he lays waste to King's Landing solo (with the Dragon). But to think he does it before the army attacks Winterfell doesn't make sense. I don't think the plan is to lay siege to Winterfell -- it's to overrun it.

So perhaps the two battles happen simultaneously.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

As long as he doesn’t burn them up, the NK could turn all of the villagers surrounding King’s Landing into an army. And maybe the dragon can dial down the heat of his fire. A bunch of burning skeleton zombies would be kind of fun to see.

I kind of like the theory that King’s Landing will be attacked simultaneously with Winterfell. Story-wise, it’s much more exciting than Winterfell first.


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

They have made a big deal of Sam taking books from the Citadel about fighting (not remembering what...NK, WW's, the dead?). Since they haven't shown him sharing that knowledge I have to believe it will come up sometime after the Winterfell battle next week. So maybe that supports the idea that the NK does not die next week.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Marco said:


> I am more and more attached to the theory that the Night King is not at Winterfell.
> 
> 1. Remember Daenerys's vision from season 2? A ruined Kings Landing, a snowy Red Keep with a hole in the roof over the Iron Throne? Stuff gets put in the show for a reason. That vision needs to be fulfilled *somehow.*
> EDIT: as internet peeps point out, Bran "saw" it too.
> ...


I don't know that I agree with point 5 while the rest makes sense. It could be that Cersei is taken by the NK and that the huge battle is "won" at winter fell by the living and the NK has Cersei but is otherwise weakened without his army and is taken care of nearer the end of the season.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Marco said:


> Cersei's not really that farsighted.
> 
> But I admit this is a potential problem for the NK.


Why? she knew she was facing 3 dragons and ordered the weapon made. Why would she not order more?


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

I find myself more and more attached to the theory that the Night King is going to win. (Whatever "win" means in that scenario.)


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Why? she knew she was facing 3 dragons and ordered the weapon made. Why would she not order more?


I'm hoping that's why we haven't seen Bronn yet. He's slowly making his way north with the Scorpion.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I forgot to mention earlier, I love the look of dread on Jamie's face whenever Bran opens his mouth: "The things we do for love"


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I clicked "like" but that's not enough for me. I agree with everything you say, especially about Bronn and the DragonBow (Trademark pending!).


Except that Bronn doesn't have The Scorpion. He has the smaller crossbow that Tyrion used to kill Tywin.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Especially like the simultaneous attack/battle theory. That may explain why it's being called "the battle episode to end all battle episodes".

One thing, where is Bran and his TER all-seeing eye in all this? Shouldn't he have _some _idea what's going down?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Especially like the simultaneous attack/battle theory. That may explain why it's being called "the battle episode to end all battle episodes".
> 
> One thing, where is Bran and his TER all-seeing eye in all this? Shouldn't he have _some _idea what's going down?


Ah but an all-seer also sees if he should say if he sees or not. In most fiction, characters like Bran are above the fray.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

If the NK is coming for the TER, a responsible TER evacuates to Bear Island or Dragonstone or some other island where the NK would have to attack alone.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that Bronn doesn't have The Scorpion. He has the smaller crossbow that Tyrion used to kill Tywin.


That's a strange stance to take!

The guy went to Bronn's bedroom, gave him the crossbow and told him to go kill the brothers. We have no idea what Bronn took with him. Bronn was naked at the time, do you think he's going there naked because we didn't see him get dressed?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

While I have no doubt the living will win, I am open to the idea that the NK will not die but flee back north of the wall and the cycle continues thousands of years later...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> That's a strange stance to take!
> 
> The guy went to Bronn's bedroom, gave him the crossbow and told him to go kill the brothers. We have no idea what Bronn took with him. Bronn was naked at the time, do you think he's going there naked because we didn't see him get dressed?












So you're saying that because he was hired to kill Jaime and Tyrion, and given a very specific weapon with which to do so (a weapon which can easily be carried by a single man), we should infer that he went into the crypt of the Red Keep and also decided to bring along an additional gigantic weapon that has to be towed by horses, even though that would have nothing to do with the contract he was given?


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> So you're saying that because he was hired to kill Jaime and Tyrion, and given a very specific weapon with which to do so (a weapon which can easily be carried by a single man), we should infer that he went into the crypt of the Red Keep and also decided to bring along an additional gigantic weapon that has to be towed by horses, even though that would have nothing to do with the contract he was given?


You're forgetting that he also apparently contracted to have another one built because as far as we know, the only one every shown/talked about was destroyed.


----------



## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

Anubys said:


> That's a strange stance to take!
> 
> The guy went to Bronn's bedroom, gave him the crossbow and told him to go kill the brothers. We have no idea what Bronn took with him. Bronn was naked at the time, do you think he's going there naked because we didn't see him get dressed?


He wasn't naked, he had pants on.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Forgiving him I can almost get my head around. Running to him and hugging him and crying (especially when you didn't do that for your own blood and family) was my nit.


When Theon rescues Sansa from Ramsay, he says "I have to make amends to your family for the things I have done... I would taken you all the way to the wall. I would have died to get you there." She hugs him crying. This reunion was very similar to that.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

ct1 said:


> When Theon rescues Sansa from Ramsay, he says "I have to make amends to your family for the things I have done... I would taken you all the way to the wall. I would have died to get you there." She hugs him crying. This reunion was very similar to that.


Yes. Ramsey was beating and cutting her on a regular basis. Theon saved her from that, risking his life to do so. He made deadly stupid mistakes in the past. He knows that, and is trying to make amends.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MacThor said:


> If the NK is coming for the TER, a responsible TER evacuates to Bear Island or Dragonstone or some other island where the NK would have to attack alone.


Good point. I suppose no one thinks the NK is going anywhere but Winterfell. They certainly haven't discussed that possibility.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Off topic, but my daughter found these in Kroger today. My friend theorized they will be useful to ease the pain of this upcoming weekend's episode.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> You're forgetting that he also apparently contracted to have another one built because as far as we know, the only one every shown/talked about was destroyed.


No, I'm not forgetting that, because my point is that Bronn DIDN'T bring the Scorpion with him. Apparently Anubys forgot that, although it was already discussed upthread that the original was burnt to a crisp by Drogon, but Cersei may have had additional versions built.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

morac said:


> Speaking of which, it makes sense for the NK to bring winter with him wherever he goes as his army wouldn't last long in warm weather.


NK doesn't bring winter. Winter brings the NK. The NK can only go south during a true winter, because his army does need the cold to march. But that's why winter coming is so scary and why the Starks motto is Winter is Coming. They guard the north from the White Walkers and know that a bad winter allows them to come south. (Although the creation of The Wall and a very long episode of mild winters means that's now been so long since that last happened that no one remembers it anymore. They just remember to fear a harsh winter).


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> No, I'm not forgetting that, because my point is that Bronn DIDN'T bring the Scorpion with him. Apparently Anubys forgot that, although it was already discussed upthread that the original was burnt to a crisp by Drogon, but Cersei may have had additional versions built.


Apparently my "apparently" didn't trip your sarcasm meter.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

We don't really know much about the Three-Eyed Raven. He seems to be against the Night King, but is that because he wants to defend the realm?

What if the Night King wants to destroy him not because he holds the world's history as he claimed, but because they are both fighting over control of the realm?

Did the Children of the Forest create the Three-Eyed Raven to defeat the Night King or replace him?

The Night King can control the dead, but the Three-Eyed Raven can control the living, albeit to a limited degree. Perhaps defeating the Night King is needed in order for the Three-Eyed Raven to expand his power.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> NK doesn't bring winter. Winter brings the NK. The NK can only go south during a true winter, because his army does need the cold to march. But that's why winter coming is so scary and why the Starks motto is Winter is Coming. They guard the north from the White Walkers and know that a bad winter allows them to come south. (Although the creation of The Wall and a very long episode of mild winters means that's now been so long since that last happened that no one remembers it anymore. They just remember to fear a harsh winter).


But we have seen the storm follow the NK and his army. It's always shown as if the storm is part of the army, marching with them south.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> But we have seen the storm follow the NK and his army. It's always shown as if the storm is part of the army, marching with them south.


Or that the army is part of the storm, marching with it south.

Winter Is Coming. Not The Night King Is Coming.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

And when Jaimie left Kings Landing, didn't it start to snow there?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> NK doesn't bring winter. Winter brings the NK. The NK can only go south during a true winter, because his army does need the cold to march. But that's why winter coming is so scary and why the Starks motto is Winter is Coming. They guard the north from the White Walkers and know that a bad winter allows them to come south. (Although the creation of The Wall and a very long episode of mild winters means that's now been so long since that last happened that no one remembers it anymore. They just remember to fear a harsh winter).


If that is the case then the "it's snowing in King's Landing" theory seems suspect, unless in the 2 hours since we last saw sunny and warm King's Landing there's suddenly a blizzard. I always assumed it was that the NK and his army cause the cold as they assemble in larger masses and move about.

Edit: Never mind. I forgot it was already snowing there as Jaime left.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or that the army is part of the storm, marching with it south.
> 
> Winter Is Coming. Not The Night King Is Coming.


And IIRC there have been long (multi-year) winters in the South within living memory. It's just that, thanks to the Wall, the Night King and the walkers didn't also attack.

There may be some feedback process where the Army of the Dead marching south intensifies the winter that was already on the way - but winter does seem to come first -- and can come fiercely even with the dead don't follow.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Anubys said:


> But we have seen the storm follow the NK and his army. It's always shown as if the storm is part of the army, marching with them south.


We have seen them amplify and manipulate the cold, but I think they still need it to be there first.

I don't know if winter in Westeros (that sounds like the title of a GoT holiday album) is a true season like our world, or if it is caused by magic such that it is considered always winter beyond the Wall.

But if it is a season, then that means the Night King's army doesn't need winter to survive; they just need the cold. The effects of winter might extend the Night King's reach, but winter itself might not have any direct connection to the Night King's power.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> <snip>
> 
> Did the Children of the Forest create the Three-Eyed Raven to defeat the Night King or replace him?
> 
> The Night King can control the dead, but the Three-Eyed Raven can control the living, albeit to a limited degree. Perhaps defeating the Night King is needed in order for the Three-Eyed Raven to expand his power.


Can you refresh my memory of the Children of the Forest creating the Three-Eyed Raven? I don't recall that even though I just finished a re-watch.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

tivotvaddict said:


> Can you refresh my memory of the Children of the Forest creating the Three-Eyed Raven? I don't recall that even though I just finished a re-watch.







EDIT: Sorry, I misread your question. That's the scene of the Children creating the Night King.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

getbak said:


> EDIT: Sorry, I misread your question. That's the scene of the Children creating the Night King.


Heh...I made the same mistake, but as I was re-reading my answer and the question I realized they did not match.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

getbak said:


> EDIT: Sorry, I misread your question. That's the scene of the Children creating the Night King.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Heh...I made the same mistake, but as I was re-reading my answer and the question I realized they did not match.


Perhaps it was just something that BitbyBlit read in the books?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Read something funny online. That they should cut off Bran’s arm and FedEx it to Cersei.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

tivotvaddict said:


> Can you refresh my memory of the Children of the Forest creating the Three-Eyed Raven? I don't recall that even though I just finished a re-watch.


Oh, I don't know that they did. "Did they create him?" was as much a part of my question as, "For what purpose did they create him?"

The conversation about what Bran knows about the Night King's true location got me thinking along those lines. Bran's family trust him because they still see him as Bran. But Bran has made it clear that he's not really Bran anymore. Even if he isn't up to anything nefarious, his plan might involve sacrificing all or most people at Winterfell to fit the greater goal of defeating the Night King. Does he feel any familial connection at all to Arya, Jon, and Sansa? Or are they just other generic people to him now to be used as pawns in his game?

Since the Three-Eyed Raven is human, my guess is that the Children used their magic to allow a human to be connected to their "Weirwood Information Network", and give him some of their power. But it's also possible the Three-Eyed Raven used to be a Child, and the final Child passed the torch to a human knowing that the Children were going extinct.

In any case, if the Children created the Three-Eyed Raven, I do think it's unlikely that they did so with malicious intent. But that was just one wild possibility that I thought of.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> In any case, if the Children created the Three-Eyed Raven, I do think it's unlikely that they did so with malicious intent. But that was just one wild possibility that I thought of.


I suspect they created the Three-Eyed Raven as atonement for creating the Night King...


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect they created the Three-Eyed Raven as atonement for creating the Night King...


I agree. The humans had the numbers and they had the information. Both were needed to stop the Night King, and the Three-Eyed Raven provided that bridge.

Had they been successful during the original battle, the Three-Eyed Raven might also have be a useful ambassador between the two groups. But at this point, there don't appear to be any Children left.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

If both Jon and Daenerys die in the battle, who can keep the North/Vale, Free Folk, Unsullied, and Dothraki united? Who can even keep the Dothraki united amongst themselves?

All it would take is two dragon-killing spears or arrows hitting just right while Jon and Daenerys are riding, and we could have the battle of 5+ armies within the realm again. Ironically, winning the battle against the Night King would make this a more likely result. While the different groups would all share the camaraderie of having fought on the same side, there is likely to be disagreement of who ought to be in charge even if they still have Cersei as a common enemy.

Melisandre said she would meet Arya again, and that she would come back to Westeros to die. So presumably Arya will survive the battle (unless this battle is when Melisandre comes back to die). But will Arya have to become no one, and go into hiding again because of the aftermath?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

BitbyBlit said:


> If both Jon and Daenerys die in the battle, who can keep the North/Vale, Free Folk, Unsullied, and Dothraki united? Who can even keep the Dothraki united amongst themselves?


Jon and Dany both dying this episode? Never gonna happen.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Jon and Dany both dying this episode? Never gonna happen.


I would be flabbergasted if even one of them died.

Before the end of the series, maybe. But not yet...they've got WAY too much to work out before one or both of them can die!


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Re-watched this episode this morning. One curious remark Tyrion said to Jaimie when they were discussing Cersi's pregnancy. That if he dies and comes back a wight, he would go after Cersi and kill her...hmmm...


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I would be flabbergasted if even one of them died.


Not at all beyond the realm of possibility to me. Care to make it interesting?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Marco said:


> Not at all beyond the realm of possibility to me. Care to make it interesting?


I just don't see it happening tonight. There are too many unresolved issues between them. You don't set all that up, and then just not resolve it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Marco said:


> Not at all beyond the realm of possibility to me. Care to make it interesting?


If one (or both) of them were to die in the Battle for Winterfell, what would have been the point of the whole series pointing us to the potential conflict between Dany and Jon when she learned his claim is superior to hers? Can you imagine how ridiculous it would be, from a storytelling perspective, to have 8 seasons of the show build up to that, and then for their final exchange to be "If that's true, it would mean you are the rightful heir to the Iron Throne." And then they die? Completely implausible.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> If one (or both) of them were to die in the Battle for Winterfell, what would have been the point of the whole series pointing us to the potential conflict between Dany and Jon when she learned his claim is superior to hers? Can you imagine how ridiculous it would be, from a storytelling perspective, to have 8 seasons of the show build up to that, and then for their final exchange to be "If that's true, it would mean you are the rightful heir to the Iron Throne." And then they die? Completely implausible.


I agree except it is nowhere near the whole series pointing to him vs her. Last several seasons yes, but for a while he wasn't really in the picture.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> I agree except it is nowhere near the whole series pointing to him vs her. Last several seasons yes, but for a while he wasn't really in the picture.


Seriously?!? Jon has been one of the major characters since S01E01. It may not have become clear to viewers how or why he was so important until later seasons, but book readers always knew. Any anyone who heard anything about how the series came to be produced knew that the identity of Jon's mother was a major factor in why GRRM allowed Weiss and Benioff to be the showrunners.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Seriously?!? Jon has been one of the major characters since S01E01. It may not have become clear to viewers how or why he was so important until later seasons, but book readers always knew. Any anyone who heard anything about how the series came to be produced knew that the identity of Jon's mother was a major factor in why GRRM allowed Weiss and Benioff to be the showrunners.


Rather you should say, book readers had guessed by the time the show started. It wasn't immediately obvious even in the books why Jon was important...and in fact it has yet to be explicitly revealed in the books.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

It may not have been him versus her from the beginning but Jon was an extremely important character from the start.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It wasn't immediately obvious even in the books why Jon was important...and in fact it has yet to be explicitly revealed in the books.


Dying and coming back might be a signal of some importance..


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> Seriously?!? Jon has been one of the major characters since S01E01. It may not have become clear to viewers how or why he was so important until later seasons, but book readers always knew. Any anyone who heard anything about how the series came to be produced knew that the identity of Jon's mother was a major factor in why GRRM allowed Weiss and Benioff to be the showrunners.


Yes seriously, and I doubt the majority of the viewers read the books first or knew how it came to be produced.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

TonyD79 said:


> It may not have been him versus her from the beginning but Jon was an extremely important character from the start.


I never said he wasn't an important character, only it wasn't Jon vs Dany for the whole series. And when I said in the picture, I meant in the running for the throne.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

ct1 said:


> Dying and coming back might be a signal of some importance..


Yes, that was season 6. Not the whole series, which is all I was opposing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ct1 said:


> Dying and coming back might be a signal of some importance..


But it's not a signal of JON'S importance (which is that he's the legitimate Targaryan heir to the throne).


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Guys WRONG thread


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

realityboy said:


> Without spoiling what happens in future episodes, I'm just saying Beric is not a main character on the same level as Jon Snow.


Absolutely agreed but I think yours is borderline and ct1s post is definitely over the line.


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