# Hr20 Upgrade



## BillsIn05 (Aug 14, 2006)

Anyone get an update last night?? That changed the color of the banner and menus?

Orig Software was Oxac
Past Upgrade Ox168 Today ay 4:48 AM


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

BillsIn05 said:


> Anyone get an update last night?? That changed the color of the banner and menus?
> 
> Orig Software was Oxac
> Past Upgrade Ox168 Today ay 4:48 AM


Wrong forum - try DBSTALK.COM and all your questions will be answered.

(not being mean - trying to be helpful - I also have a couple HR20s).



ETA: It seems that there IS a staggered rollout of a new software update. there's bundles of info on the other site.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Here's the link to the HR20 forum.
http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112


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## Swirl_Junkie (Mar 11, 2001)

But yes, the 700's got the new white GUI. 100's still waiting.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Isn't "HR20 upgrade" sort of an oxymoron? Like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"?


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## Bitz69 (Jul 29, 2000)

Swirl_Junkie said:


> But yes, the 700's got the new white GUI. 100's still waiting.


Actually there was a Opportunity to get x168 on the 100's if you forced the download at the right time. but that window has passed now.


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> Isn't "HR20 upgrade" sort of an oxymoron? Like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"?


In another thread you jumped all over me for suggesting someone swap a bad HR10 for an HR20.

We get it Tyrone - You don't care much for the HR20.

Can we move on now without you jumping into every thread that mentions the HR20 and thread crapping all over it ?


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

TyroneShoes said:


> Isn't "HR20 upgrade" sort of an oxymoron? Like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"?


After 1 year with the HR10-250 and now over a month on the HR20-700, I would say yes!

The HR20-700 is overall a better DVR IMO than the HR10 for a few features. 
Do I think the GUI is better on TiVo? Probably, but I was never a huge TiVo nerd. No married to the brand, just the DVR. The the GUI on the HR20 is fine and it's improving fast.

It's kinda like Apple Macs are for dummies and PCs were for computer guys.

The GUI on the TiVo is much more user friendly for someone that never used a DVR. 
The wife misses the "wish list" and I prefer the TiVo "SPM"
Also DLB is the one thing really that I miss and wish I had and the ability to scan for OTA channels. Then again, any of those I want the HR20 picks up.

The Picture quality is better on the HR20 for HD and SD IMO and the networking feature is also nice. Once those new birds go up and more HD channels come on line, the HR10 will be more and more obsolete. Unless you don't want/care for the new MPEG4 channels.

Also the 6.3d update was the death of the HR10 for me. It never worked properly again. My HR20 so far has been flawless.

I guess I am from indifferent as I only paid $49 to own my HR10 and got the HR20, the dish and MS for free!

If I paid $600+ for the HR10 I would be bitter as well.

In the best of worlds, the HR20 would have a TiVo GUI with HR20 features.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Stanley Rohner said:


> In another thread you jumped all over me for suggesting someone swap a bad HR10 for an HR20.
> 
> We get it Tyrone - You don't care much for the HR20.
> 
> Can we move on now without you jumping into every thread that mentions the HR20 and thread crapping all over it ?


+1

I prefer my HR20. Maybe he paid a $1000+ for his. I would be bitter as well.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

gio1269 said:


> The GUI on the TiVo is much more user friendly for someone that never used a DVR.


Actually I recall quite a few people posting here after getting their first D-TiVo and being a bit disoriented because they were more used to regular DIRECTV receivers and struggled a bit getting used to the more TiVo-centric interface. I already had a standalone TiVo so I was familiar, but using the HR20 was a refresher course on DIRECTV receivers for me and I like it.

Funny how I don't see the complaints on more neutral sites that I visit on the HR20, and I'm not talking about DBSTalk. Even Scott G. @ SatGuys was complimentary, rated the PQ of MPEG-4 channels 9.5 on a scale of 10 and praised the progress on the HR20. I don't really see anyone raving about progress made on the HR10.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Yea, Scott G over at SatGuys put his money where his foot was and finally signed up with DirecTV after years of bashing it. His review was eye opening as he admitted that DirecTV ain't all that bad and he likes the HR20 as a whole. Amazing what happens to your opinion if you aren't married to it.

As for the original poster, yes, go to DBSTalk for HR20 info as the people around here don't want to talk about it, scares them I guess.  The white GUI has been out for a while now in testing and is the new GUI that is planned to go on all the modern receivers (HR20, H20, R15, D12, D11, etc.). DBSTalk members have been critical in testing this new GUI and DirecTV has made weekly updates and changes to it based on feedback given by members. It's now going national for the past week or so.

Last night I just loaded up the new CE (beta) which includes FFW autocorrection, a Tivo patent no less. They've been tweaking the autocorrection based on feedback as well. So come on over to DBSTalk and help make the HR20 better. VOD and online scheduling should be coming very soon.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=271336


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> Isn't "HR20 upgrade" sort of an oxymoron? Like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"?


LOL


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> As for the original poster, yes, go to DBSTalk for HR20 info as the people around here don't want to talk about it, scares them I guess.


No, I don't think it "scares them."

It was decided (after much debate) by "those that rule" that HR10 would be discussed here, and HR20 would be discussed at dbs ...what's so difficult to comprehend?


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> ...
> It was decided (after much debate) by "those that rule" that HR10 would be discussed here, and HR20 would be discussed at dbs ...what's so difficult to comprehend?


Right! See my post above!


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## CessnaDriver (Oct 25, 2003)

JimSpence said:


> See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=271336


I think it's ironic that this site is chasing away their users. It won't be long before Directv makes the H10-250 obsolete. Basically anyone that's a Directv/Tivo user is being (or will be in the near future) shunned from this site.

Why not add a new forum here for the H20's? It's not Tivo, but it's still very similar.

Oh well. See ya'll on DBSTalk I guess.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

The ultimate bait and switch continues...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

CessnaDriver said:


> Why not add a new forum here for the H20's? It's not Tivo, but it's still very similar.


This is very easy to answer: This site is all about TiVo, and the HR20 is direct competition to TiVo. I use the HR20 and I like it, but just as I don't expect TCF to have a forum for Cablevision SA8300HD receivers, I don't expect there to be a forum for DirecTV HR20 receivers.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> No, I don't think it "scares them."
> 
> It was decided (after much debate) by "those that rule" that HR10 would be discussed here, and HR20 would be discussed at dbs ...what's so difficult to comprehend?


Actually recently the mods said it was ok to talk about the HR20, at least to direct them to the correct spot. Not everyone knows what's going on.

As time moves forward questions will get asked more and more and eventually this and the DirecTivo forum will die out. It's just the nature of the beast. Unfortunately not everyone seems to be able to accept it. And that's ok. But why shun people seeking honest information? Just doesn't make sense...


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

"Yep. And leave those that are wondering what's going on in the cold. Not everyone knows what's up with the new receivers after all. But that's the right thing to do after all, shun people and make them feel unwanted. That'll keep a forum going.

__________________
Scott"

This is a Tivo forum. What is wrong with those of us who like the Tivo products from discussing them without guys like you putting your 2 cents in to every thread spouting off this crap about how great D* is doing with it's other boxes. If we want to know about the other box, we'll find out about it.

I've seen enough discussion on the Internet to know that Tivo is a product that I like a great deal. At this stage, is still appears to me that nothing comes close to the UI that makes it a great box to run.

I'm sick and tired of guys like you telling us how great that box is when clearly there are people who don't like it for all kinds of reasons.

It's clear you are only on this forum to create FUD about the Tivo products. Most people come here for other reasons.

Maybe the D* product will be what I want when it comes time for me to switch. I doubt it, so I'll look for another alternative. That's one reason I like this forum - to discuss the alternatives beyond D* and there line of products. 

I want something that I feel compares to Tivo, and clearly many of us here don't believe there is anything up to that level. I also don't like the way D* forces people into a 2-year contract.

If you have something positive to offer this forum, fine. But you're just full of doom and gloom about Tivo. Spout that stuff off on other forums.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

RS4 said:


> It's clear you are only on this forum to create FUD about the Tivo products. Most people come here for other reasons.


Ummm... Who are you talking to?



> Maybe the D* product will be what I want when it comes time for me to switch. I doubt it, so I'll look for another alternative. That's one reason I like this forum - to discuss the alternatives beyond D* and there line of products.


So you're OK with other alternatives being discussed as long as they're alternatives TO DirecTV? Hmm. I thought this was a TiVo forum? Shouldn't discussion on all alternatives be banned? Or if you allow other alternatives, shouldn't you allow DirecTV?



> I want something that I feel compares to Tivo, and clearly many of us here don't believe there is anything up to that level. I also don't like the way D* forces people into a 2-year contract.


There are lots of companies forcing contracts. Based on the pricing plan you choose, TiVo in fact also forces contracts. It's the nature of the service industry today: Get a customer and lock them into a contract.



> If you have something positive to offer this forum, fine. But you're just full of doom and gloom about Tivo. Spout that stuff off on other forums.


Again, who are you talking to? The most recent discussions of the HR20 have not put down TiVo, but have pointed out that there's an upcoming date when TiVo HR10 units will lose MPEG2 HD. Not FUD. Fact.

As you pointed out earlier, this is a great forum for discussing alternatives to TiVo, and to educate potential customers of strengths and weaknesses of both TiVo and the alternatives. I welcome such discussion.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*"Ummm... Who are you talking to?"*

If you notice the quotation marks around the first paragraph, then you'll realize that I was referring to Scott. He's even got the advertising for the HR20 in his sig line.

*"So you're OK with other alternatives being discussed as long as they're alternatives TO DirecTV? Hmm. I thought this was a TiVo forum? Shouldn't discussion on all alternatives be banned? Or if you allow other alternatives, shouldn't you allow DirecTV?"*

Yes, I'm more interested in finding alternatives to D*. Yeah, this is a Tivo forum, so I want to know where I can use a Tivo product. I realize that I will have to change Tivo boxes, but I prefer Tivo over the content provider. If the content provider shuns Tivo products, then I'll look for another provider first, before switching boxes.

*"There are lots of companies forcing contracts. Based on the pricing plan you choose, TiVo in fact also forces contracts. It's the nature of the service industry today: Get a customer and lock them into a contract."*

Tivo is not forcing customers into a long-term contract. So, this is another reason why D* has been put at the bottom of my list. I specifically asked D* if I was not happy with HR20, was there something like a 30-day try-it program? I was told I'm stuck with the 2-year lease regardless. I left my cell-phone provider and I'll do the same with D* because of that attitude, if I can find an alternative.

I've been on the other forum and I've seen wish lists that are a mile and a half long and all kinds of other things to tell me that I am not currently interested in the HR20 at this point in time. Clearly there are many people who have one and feel it is inferior. I want a Tivo alternative, not an alternative to Tivo.

I don't understand why people have to come on this forum and try to belittle those of us who don't like what Direct is doing and offering as an alternative. Their 'take it or leave it' attitude has me wanting to 'leave it', and if I can find an alternative source for a Tivo product, that's where I'll head.


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

gio1269 said:


> It's kinda like Apple Macs are for dummies and PCs were for computer guys.


<RANT MODE ON>
*sigh* here we go again ....

I've got a degree in computer science. I architect multi-million dollar symmetric multiprocessing servers all day. I manage over 350 TB of high-end enterprise storage.

And what do I use at home? A Macintosh.

I'm no dummy. I can take a PC apart and put it back together again blindfolded. I prefer having something at home that just works.

Next up, I suppose you'll tell me that Macs are too expensive (they aren't - do a feature-for-feature comparison.) Or that there's no software. (There might be 500 spreadsheets for PCs, but only 50 for the Mac. You only need one!) Or that it can't play games.

I don't know why I try to refute all the arguments - I guess it's just trying to explain to folks that the FUD (fear, uncertainty & doubt) is wrong.

<RANT MODE OFF>

Anywho ... back to topic ... sorry for the digression.

As for the HR20, I really think it's a fine receiver. With all of the tweaking, tuneups and development going on, it's getting better by the day.

When it was released, it stunk. It didn't work.

Now it works. And thus, it no longer stinks.

I'm very happy with my HR20 - much happier than I was with the HR10, in fact. The HR10 was slow. Very, very, very slow. And let's face it, since the 6.x upgrade, it's been a bit unstable too.

I love the TiVo interface, but it's time to move on. The HR20 records my programs, performs trick play (and with the new autocorrect, it's just as good as the TiVo at it), and well, it gets a whole lot more HD channels. Already. I get the YES Network in HD; you can't do that with an HR10. And come September, there'll be a pile more ...

Seriously - I understand wanting to hang onto something that's served you so well. It's the devil-you-know vs. the devil-you-don't. For me, the devil I didn't hasn't done me wrong.

I was a DirecTV subscriber before the TiVo units came around, and I'll be there after they're all retired. The HR20 gives me hope for the future... now if they can just sort out that R15 ............


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I have no problem with generic discussions of the HR20, but it better serves those who post questions about it to go to the other forum. 

I don't yet own an HR20, so will not comment one way or the other about its usefullness. And when I do get one, I'll do it on the appropriate DBSTalk forum.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

RS4 said:


> *"Ummm... Who are you talking to?"*
> 
> If you notice the quotation marks around the first paragraph, then you'll realize that I was referring to Scott. He's even got the advertising for the HR20 in his sig line.


Ah. Using onorthodox forum quoting styles, I had no idea what you were doing. It seems that the post you "quoted" was also very quickly edited, so the original post no longer exists, which made it harder for me to figure out what you were doing.



> I've been on the other forum and I've seen wish lists that are a mile and a half long and all kinds of other things to tell me that I am not currently interested in the HR20 at this point in time. Clearly there are many people who have one and feel it is inferior. I want a Tivo alternative, not an alternative to Tivo.


Wishlists are just that: wishes/feature enhancements customers want to see implemented. People have been requesting features from TiVo for years - the number of requests doesn't mean the box is one to be shied away from. In fact, if you paid enough attention at the other site, you'd know that some of the wishes are actually being implemented. In other words, DirecTV is listening to its customers. That's a good thing for everyone.



> I don't understand why people have to come on this forum and try to belittle those of us who don't like what Direct is doing and offering as an alternative. Their 'take it or leave it' attitude has me wanting to 'leave it', and if I can find an alternative source for a Tivo product, that's where I'll head.


I just haven't seen this "take it or leave it" attitude, or the belittling you think is so prevalent here. One or two posts are heated, but on balance, I think the discourse is generally reasoned and not intended to be provocative.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*"In fact, if you paid enough attention at the other site, you'd know that some of the wishes are actually being implemented. In other words, DirecTV is listening to its customers. That's a good thing for everyone.*

I always laugh at this argument. How long have dvr's been around now - by some other thread, at least since 1999. How long has Direct been in the DVR business? I don't know, all I know is that I've owned 3 for several years.

And you're saying that Direct is listening to it's customers? What a novel idea. Where were they when we were asking them to turn on the features that Tivo had, but would let us have? Ummm, maybe they never heard us ?

And then of course, the obvious question - why not at least put in your box what is currently available in the market place? Duh!!! Yeah, this is really a well-thought-out box . No wonder they need a 2-year lease. They need you guys to pay for the development.

My whole point is that you can't tell me that a box that has undergone the development like HR20 is ready for prime time. Yeah, you can tell me that Tivo went through groing stages, but Tivo (and Replay) were first to the market years ago.

Direct tried with NDS to get something together and that apparently failed and since, has thrown something together and maybe in time in will settle down to be a decent product, but it appears to me to be a hastily put together POS that is no match for the Tivo in it's current stage. So, I'll stick with the Tivo if at all possible.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

dmurphy said:


> <RANT MODE ON>
> *sigh* here we go again ....
> 
> I've got a degree in computer science. I architect multi-million dollar symmetric multiprocessing servers all day. I manage over 350 TB of high-end enterprise storage.
> ...


Lighten up Nancy. Man, you Apple guys are so sensitive. I started out with using a Mac when I fist owned a computer. The OS was much, much more easier to use than Windows 3.1

That's where it came from. Back then all the computers guys would say Mac is for people who don't know how to operate a computer. Hence the computer for dummies.

Now overall, I think they are better machines than PC for graphics, games, etc.
But there are FAR to many programs and stuff for PC and this is why when I bought my first computer I switched over from a MAC to a PC. Also if all the programs you want to borrow for friends are PC then your screwed. Macs cost more but are worth it in some aspects.

PC dominate the market so that's why I stuck with them as well.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> Actually recently the mods said it was ok to talk about the HR20, at least to direct them to the correct spot. Not everyone knows what's going on.
> 
> As time moves forward questions will get asked more and more and eventually this and the DirecTivo forum will die out. It's just the nature of the beast. Unfortunately not everyone seems to be able to accept it. And that's ok. But why shun people seeking honest information? Just doesn't make sense...


I don't have a problem with that at all ...in fact, I think it's a great idea. But the discussions quite often go much farther than simply directing people to the other forum.

Nobody's shunning anyone seeking information ...I just don't understand _what's so confusing_?? For HR10 information/discussion, _I come here._ For HR20 information/discussion, _I go to DBS._

_It can't get any simpler for people to get information than that_ ...what's confusing to me is why some folks find this such a difficult concept to comprehend.

The fact that there are seperate forums makes it _easier_ to get information IMO.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> I don't have a problem with that at all ...in fact, I think it's a great idea. But the discussions quite often go much farther than simply directing people to the other forum.
> 
> Nobody's shunning anyone seeking information ...I just don't understand _what's so confusing_?? For HR10 information/discussion, _I come here._ For HR20 information/discussion, _I go to DBS._
> 
> ...


Geez Louise, how many times do we have to say it anyway?
This forum has "TiVo" in its name. Non-TiVo discussion should be on the other forum. End of discussion.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

JimSpence said:


> Geez Louise, how many times do we have to say it anyway?
> This forum has "TiVo" in its name. Non-TiVo discussion should be on the other forum. End of discussion.


Amen.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

RS4 said:


> *"In fact, if you paid enough attention at the other site, you'd know that some of the wishes are actually being implemented. In other words, DirecTV is listening to its customers. That's a good thing for everyone.*
> 
> I always laugh at this argument. How long have dvr's been around now - by some other thread, at least since 1999. How long has Direct been in the DVR business? I don't know, all I know is that I've owned 3 for several years.


DirecTV has been writing DVR software for about two years now. Previously DVR software development was contracted out, with NDS and TiVo being the two most recent companies supplying the software. DirecTV writes the software for the HR20.



> And you're saying that Direct is listening to it's customers?


Yes. It's what I wrote.



> What a novel idea. Where were they when we were asking them to turn on the features that Tivo had, but would let us have? Ummm, maybe they never heard us ?


I can't speak to why DirecTV didn't allow TiVo to supply features, but ...

Now I'll tell you what makes me laugh: arguments made with blinders firmly in place.  We can go back and forth pointing out things TiVo and DirecTV did and didn't do. For example, how long have people been asking for Free Space Indicators in TiVo?



> And then of course, the obvious question - why not at least put in your box what is currently available in the market place? Duh!!!


You're right. Duh! Like Free Space Indicators! Caller ID! Picture-in-Picture! Media Sharing! (By the way, the HR20 has all of these - out of the box - no hacking needed. TiVo has what? 1 of those 4? All features that are "generally available in the marketplace.")



> Yeah, this is really a well-thought-out box .


Thank you, yes, it is. 



> My whole point is that you can't tell me that a box that has undergone the development like HR20 is ready for prime time. Yeah, you can tell me that Tivo went through groing stages, but Tivo (and Replay) were first to the market years ago.


Absolutely TiVo had it's problems when it first rolled out. So did the HR20. TiVo corrected those problems. So did DirecTV.



> Direct tried with NDS to get something together and that apparently failed and since, has thrown something together and maybe in time in will settle down to be a decent product, but it appears to me to be a hastily put together POS that is no match for the Tivo in it's current stage. So, I'll stick with the Tivo if at all possible.


And that's fine. Enjoy your TiVo. I enjoy my TiVos, too. I also enjoy my HR20. Both platforms are equally reliable. Both are equally usable. Both are enjoyable. I guess I get the best of both worlds.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> What is wrong with those of us who like the Tivo products from discussing them without guys like you putting your 2 cents in to every thread spouting off this crap about how great D* is doing with it's other boxes. If we want to know about the other box, we'll find out about it.
> 
> .


Might want to get your facts straight. The *only* threads I ever post in are ones where someone asks about an HR20 or the HR20 is discussed. I don't even open any others. Talk about Tivo all you want, I'll never know it.

You keep thinking I hate Tivo. I have no idea why. I have 2 DirecTivo's in my house and they aren't going anywhere. I only post to keep away the FUD about the HR20, that is all. And again, only in posts of people asking about the HR20 or where it gets brought up. If you don't want to see discussion on the HR20, why do you even open such threads? Then *you'd* never have to see a post on it again. Sounds like a winner to me.

As for your other comment about "advertising" in my sig. To the contrary. I put a link in my sig to direct people (hopefully) to the forum that the HR20 is to be discussed in. I would have thought that would make you happy, directing people away from this forum for HR20 discussion. Or am I missing something?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> The fact that there are seperate forums makes it _easier_ to get information IMO.


I agree. I totally agree.

But people that don't know will post here because it's the only forum they know. If there is to be no discussion at all on non-Tivo products then the mods better get to work and lock every single thread that ever comes up on the HR20 with a simple "go to DBSTalk". But that isn't very friendly I'd say and may drive people away looking for options such as the Series 3. If you can't have a frank discussion about all the options out there it sure sounds like a dictatorship to me.

If people talk about Tivo on DBSTalk they don't get slammed and told they can't talk about Tivo. Different communities I guess...

And nothing is stopping Tivo discussion here at all. If someone brings up something about the HR20 then just ignore it and report to a moderator. Done deal.


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

gio1269 said:


> Lighten up Nancy. Man, you Apple guys are so sensitive.


I appreciate the name-calling. Great way to make your point.

Sensitive? No. I just want to stop the spread of misinformation.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

(By the way, in case this isn't well-known, TCF and DBSTalk are sister-communities in the AVS Forum family.)


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## CessnaDriver (Oct 25, 2003)

RS4 said:


> I don't understand why people have to come on this forum and try to belittle those of us who don't like what Direct is doing and offering as an alternative. Their 'take it or leave it' attitude has me wanting to 'leave it', and if I can find an alternative source for a Tivo product, that's where I'll head.


I am the one that got us off topic, and I never belittled anyone, I just asked why this site is chasing away users. I haven't noticed any personal attacks in this thread until your post.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

dmurphy said:


> I appreciate the name-calling. Great way to make your point.
> 
> Sensitive? No. I just want to stop the spread of misinformation.


Just a joke man, sorry If you got upset.

I think 99.9% got the joke when I said "Mac was for dummies."

Again on any forum, water cooler conversation if ANYONE says anything remotely, possibly negative or their opinion on Macs, Mac geeks go nuts!!!!    
Kinda like the TiVo crowd now. BTW, I own 3 TiVo's!

Again, it was a joke and don't be so sensitive. If I was going to name call (why would I? ) it would be worse.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

RS4 said:


> Tivo is not forcing customers into a long-term contract.




For a standalone TiVo, the base price for a subscription is $16.95/mo. for one year. If you want $12.95/mo. rate, you must commit to 3 years. You can get it to average out to a little over $8.00/mo. _if_ you prepay $299 @ activation. How is that _not_ a commitment?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bidger said:


> For a standalone TiVo, the base price for a subscription is $16.95/mo. for one year. If you want $12.95/mo. rate, you must commit to 3 years. You can get it to average out to a little over $8.00/mo. _if_ you prepay $299 @ activation. How is that _not_ a commitment?


I'm sure RS4 will respond that with TiVo you're not forced to commit if you pay for the higher priced package. However, I think there's still a one year commitment, even for that higher price.

Unless the argument is about "long-term" ... 1 year TiVo, versus 3 year TiVo, versus 2 year DirecTV? Hmm. Confusing indeed.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

First of all, if I offended anyone, I apologize. My purpose in these recent discussions has been to point out that I think Direct made a rush to market with a product because of their desire to get rid of Tivo. I love reading about new technologies, but I feel this is not any new steps forward and in fact feel it could be taking backward steps from all I have read here and on other forums. In any regard, that is no reason to not have a civil discussion.

I also believe that many people are looking at the new product with blinders. I believe the HR20 is a mediocre product at this point and that there are many apologists for it. Yes, there are features that the new box may have that Tivo doesn't, but it seems that reliability and usefulness of the interface leave much to be desired.

We all know that Direct used NDS to build a box for them and that didn't work out, then they turn to in-house folks. But, I'm appalled when I read that it's good enough. Why not better? I'm glad that Direct seems to be finally listening to it's customers, but I wonder why they didn't have the foresight to come up with a superior product from the beginning? 

In fact, it seems like they are now coming out with a new UI - after being on the market just a few months? Tell me again how well thought out this box is. Instead, I believe it's an okay box in its early infancy and I'll wait as long as possible until I'm forced to use it, in the hopes it does settle down. Actually, I hope that a new partnership is formed and I'll be able to get a new Tivo, and yes I'll wait for it.

I don't see what all the fuss is about Direct's HD lite is anyway. I had HD for a while and didn't like anything they had except one or two channels. Once again, it seems Direct is after quantity, not quality - so why bother? I'll probably wait and see what the market is like in a year.

But to me, a suggestion to a feature that doesn't work is not to use that feature means that there is no 'feature'. I've seen all kinds of excuses for why things don't work on the new box. I think I'll wait until they do work before I make the plunge.

As for the question about the commitments, I was under the impression that I could sign up for Tivo service for say 30 days and if I didn't like the box, return it. Maybe that's not correct. I know when I asked the lady at Direct, she told me flat out that I was on for the full 2 years - TS. And that is the main reason I don't won't a new box. I don't like the attitude of people like that. I believe I could even return my cell phone in the first 30 days if I didn't like it, but not so with Direct.

I'm sure that many folks like their new box, but I'd also believe many have settled for something less than what they had because they have no choice, but that doesn't mean that I have to. But don't come on this forum and tell me how the new box is so great when I can see otherwise.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

RS4 said:


> I believe the HR20 is a mediocre product at this point and that there are many apologists for it.


Gee, ya think?


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## tfederov (Jul 6, 2003)

I'm not an apologist, I'm a realist. I moved to the HR20 because it's the direction D* is going and for me and my family, it works fine. I still tell my friends to go with TiVos with cable (I even gave my inlaws one to try to see if they like it). I wouldn't have shelved all four of my HR10s if I thought the HR20 was garbage. I got one, tested it for a couple months (and liked the results), and then gradually replaced my HR10s. Not trolling by a long shot. I was one of the first to think that I'd be switching to Comcast when their box got the TiVo software. After trying the HR20 though, my family decided to stick it out.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

RS4 said:


> First of all, if I offended anyone, I apologize. My purpose in these recent discussions has been to point out that I think Direct made a rush to market with a product because of their desire to get rid of Tivo.


You wouldn't be the first to make that point. Many people who love the HR20s now have also made that point. The fact is, though, that the HR20 in use today is leap years beyond the HR20 at its introduction. People today do love the HR20, but some early users who abandoned the HR20 will just never accept that.



> I love reading about new technologies, but I feel this is not any new steps forward and in fact feel it could be taking backward steps from all I have read here and on other forums.


I'm not sure where you're reading, but you really can't expect to read unbiased and glowing reviews of the HR20 (or a cable-co DVR for that matter) on a forum devoted to TiVo. For unbiased and unabashed reviews of the HR20, DBSTalk can set you straight.



> I also believe that many people are looking at the new product with blinders. I believe the HR20 is a mediocre product at this point and that there are many apologists for it. Yes, there are features that the new box may have that Tivo doesn't, but it seems that reliability and usefulness of the interface leave much to be desired.


That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but I think it's unfounded based on the latest upgrades to the software. The HR20 can certainly compete with TiVo in terms of reliability and features.



> We all know that Direct used NDS to build a box for them and that didn't work out, then they turn to in-house folks. But, I'm appalled when I read that it's good enough. Why not better? I'm glad that Direct seems to be finally listening to it's customers, but I wonder why they didn't have the foresight to come up with a superior product from the beginning?


My cable box isn't good enough. My HR20 is as good as the TiVo, and here's a shocker, the TiVo is as good as the HR20. Wrap your head around that! 



> In fact, it seems like they are now coming out with a new UI - after being on the market just a few months?


It's been out since last August/September, not "a few months." The GUI was refreshed (new color palettes, minor modifications to onscreen text, etc.), but it's not a new UI as if users need to relearn where HR20 features are located.



> Tell me again how well thought out this box is. Instead, I believe it's an okay box in its early infancy and I'll wait as long as possible until I'm forced to use it, in the hopes it does settle down. Actually, I hope that a new partnership is formed and I'll be able to get a new Tivo, and yes I'll wait for it.


Your call. I will continue to enjoy the benefits of my TiVo and at the same time enjoy the new HD channels I'll be recording in a few months on my HR10.



> But to me, a suggestion to a feature that doesn't work is not to use that feature means that there is no 'feature'. I've seen all kinds of excuses for why things don't work on the new box. I think I'll wait until they do work before I make the plunge.


No idea what you're talking about here.



> I'm sure that many folks like their new box, but I'd also believe many have settled for something less than what they had because they have no choice, but that doesn't mean that I have to. But don't come on this forum and tell me how the new box is so great when I can see otherwise.


In your opinion the new box is not great, but I'm still unclear if you have actually used it? In my opinion the new box is great. And I've used it.


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## rjnerd (May 28, 2007)

There is a truisim in the programming community, that just barely good enough is the enemy of great. I see very advanced systems replaced with ones that are less capable. Things that I used (even took for granted) on computers 20 years ago, have not re-appeared on their successors.

I see some of this with the DTV boxes. Lots of little useful things that they either couldn't move due to patent issues, or just didn't understand the utility. And some things that make me go "huh" - they knew about the new satellites likely from the start of the boxes development, satellites take even more planning than a consumer product. Yet they need the add-on adapters to get the new birds, they didn't build tuners capable of the new frequencies...

But the big problem I have with the DTV box, is that it was built closed. No opening it up and upgrading the disk drives (if for no other reason than you don't own it). (yes, I know about the SATA connector, but swapping in a bigger main drive (which I have done to some of the machines I have, and will do to the rest at some point) isn't on the table)

-dp-
http://www.the-nerds.org/


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

It's a shame there's so much misinformation out there ...



rjnerd said:


> And some things that make me go "huh" - they knew about the new satellites likely from the start of the boxes development, satellites take even more planning than a consumer product. Yet they need the add-on adapters to get the new birds, they didn't build tuners capable of the new frequencies...


The HR20 was designed with flexibility in mind: when using legacy WB68 multiswitches, the "add-on adapters", aka "BBCs", shift the signal from the new sats so that the HR20 tuners can process those signals. However, if using the new SWM (single-wire-module) multiswitches, the BBCs are not needed.



> But the big problem I have with the DTV box, is that it was built closed. No opening it up and upgrading the disk drives (if for no other reason than you don't own it). (yes, I know about the SATA connector, but swapping in a bigger main drive (which I have done to some of the machines I have, and will do to the rest at some point) isn't on the table)


Incorrect. People have swapped hard-drives inside the box. Pull the old, plug in the new. No software even needed on the new drive - the HR20 takes care of it when it reboots. The only issues is that most people have leased HR20s, so technically opening the box violates terms of the lease agreement. However, people have still done it. It's just far easier to plug in an eSATA drive and stay on the safe side of lease issues.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

A box that doesn't even have an OTA when released is not well thought out. Nor is it well thought out when you can't get it to scan for OTA channels you receive. Then the UI not being intuitive is a whole different issue.

Sure, I would have probably liked to try it out, but not when I'm being forced into a 2-year lease if I don't like it. I just finished my commitment. I'm not signing up for anything else unless the alternatives are not there.

I'll wait until the end, to see what the quality of the HD Lite is good enough or maybe wait for the cable switched HD. I prefer to vote with my dollars and let Direct know that I'm not buying mediocre products at the moment. I think if more people with HR10-250's had done that, Direct might be considering alternatives and that would have been better for all of us.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> A box that doesn't even have an OTA when released is not well thought out. Nor is it well thought out when you can't get it to scan for OTA channels you receive. Then the UI not being intuitive is a whole different issue.
> 
> Sure, I would have probably liked to try it out, but not when I'm being forced into a 2-year lease if I don't like it. I just finished my commitment. I'm not signing up for anything else unless the alternatives are not there.


So if you don't have an HR20, how can you call the UI not intuitive? So what is not intuitive about it? Examples please.
UI is all in the eye of the beholder but please, enlighten us on what is not intuitive. My wife picked up the UI in about 15 minutes.

Why harp on OTA not being activated on release. Hmmmm, the original DirecTivo's didn't have the 2nd *sat* tuner activated on release. Oh wait, we can't talk about that, it's talking bad about Tivo isn't it.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> Hmmmm, the original DirecTivo's didn't have the 2nd *sat* tuner activated on release.


Oh man, I remember the razzing us D-TiVo users took from the UltimateTV users over that fact. I really didn't care as long as they activated it before the start of the 2001 NFL Season since I picked mine up in March of that year. For those who bought in the Fall of 2000 it must have seemed like an eternity.

MPEG-4 channels and the ability to record them was the focus for the HR20 when it was released. Matter of fact, it was only available in the markets that had MPEG-4 HD locals. ATSC OTA was activated in, what, February? I don't see the big deal.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

bidger said:


> Oh man, I remember the razzing us D-TiVo users took from the UltimateTV users over that fact. I really didn't care as long as they activated it before the start of the 2001 NFL Season since I picked mine up in March of that year. For those who bought in the Fall of 2000 it must have seemed like an eternity.
> 
> MPEG-4 channels and the ability to record them was the focus for the HR20 when it was released. Matter of fact, it was only available in the markets that had MPEG-4 HD locals. ATSC OTA was activated in, what, February? I don't see the big deal.


Yep, I think it was at least 9 months (year?) before the 2nd tuner was activated. I had it in the beta program that summer but I don't think it was until September/October when it rolled out to everyone.

FYI that OTA has been activated on the HR20 since November, released nationaly in September so that's 2 months (3 months if you count August where it was in LA only).


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

I think RS4 is suffering from something I suffered from for a while - letting other people make his mind up for him. He hears that something is bad, but doesn't actually try it out for himself and then claims that his opinion is that it is bad.

I did the same thing for a while with the HR20. I kept letting other's opinions tell me how I should think about it. I also had the Tivo arrogance problem, thinking that it was the end all of DVRs. (By the way, do you drive an Audi RS4 and hang out at vwvortex.com - cause that same sort of attitude is pervasive over there when it comes to European cars and VW/Audi in particular. I used to drive a Passat and had that same arrogance - then I finally got a clue and got of my high horse and came back down to reality.) Then I finally realized what I was doing and decided to try an HR20 for MYSELF and see how it worked. Guess what - I actually like the thing. I like it A LOT! It has been 100% reliable for us, extremely fast and I like the UI. So does my wife and kids. Is it different from Tivo? Of course, but different doesn't always mean inferior - it just means different.

Anway - RS4 - you are entitled to your opinion, but it really isn't a fully informed opinion if you are basing it solely off of others opinions and not actually based on your own experience. I missed out on a lot of good stuff because I followed the pack instead of stepping out on my own and trying things out before I formed MY OWN opinion of them.

Bryan


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

RS4 said:


> A box that doesn't even have an OTA when released is not well thought out. Nor is it well thought out when you can't get it to scan for OTA channels you receive. Then the UI not being intuitive is a whole different issue.


DirecTV took a big hit when they introduced the HR20 before it was really ready but there were market issues coming up. They were starting to roll out HD locals on the satellites and the HR10 could not see them as they were MPEG4. They had to get a DVR out that could handle those stations. So they released the HR20 a bit early.

What would you have them do, push out the HD local delivery? Either way, they were between a rock and a hard place.

To catch up, they have been truly open and innovative. Wide open beta tests to anyone who wants to get them has allowed them to jump very far very fast. (I have to bash TiVo for its very slow, closed development cycle. They should take a cue from DirecTV and open up testing and make improvements quicker.)

As it stands right now, my HR20 is *more reliable than my HR10* which has been giving me black screens on and off for weeks now.

Sure, there are things the HR20 doesn't do that I would like (like dual live buffers) but I have found the unit responsive, to have a better quality picture and to record the things I want it to record reliably. And, with the upcoming single wire module (SWM, which I am testing), the wiring is simpler and very convenient.

In short, the HR20 is not perfect as it does not have every feature I would like (but no product ever will) but it is highly reliable and is advancing the technology of satellite delivery with new wiring schemes, new delivery standards (MPEG4), new interactivity features, new networking schemes (connection to media servers) and new delivery mechanisms (upcoming video on demand).

Running an HR20 side by side with an HR10 for six months has found me more and more using my HR20 and less and less using the HR10. And that is coming from a HUGE TiVo advocate.

So, how about taking your anger and your single minded thought ("the box sucks!") and realize that others that are using it do not share your opinion.

If you visit dbstalk more, you will find a lot of previous and current TiVo users who are pretty happy with the HR20 these days. Most of the "issues" have to do with tweaking the GUI or with advanced features like media sharing. You will find few posts about missing programs. You will find some bugs left (as you will in any forum, including TiVo) but you will find mostly solid performance.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Nice post Tony.



TonyD79 said:


> To catch up, they have been truly open and innovative. Wide open beta tests to anyone who wants to get them has allowed them to jump very far very fast.


A great example is the autocorrection coming out of FFW by hitting play (yes the one Tivo has a patent on). Just added 2 weeks ago and they have already released another beta based on user feedback at DBSTalk about how to improve it. It really is becoming a near weekly beta tweak based on feedback with a national release every month or two. DirecTV is really working on making this the best DVR they can possibly make.

They are now doing these open beta tests on the H20 and even got NDS into the act and the R15 is getting some love again (and hopefully can be improved).

By the way, SWM rocks. Love having just one cable for 2 tuners.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Somehow a weekly update doesn't give me the feeling that this box is as up to par as you guys would like us to think.

Sure, I would have like to have tried the box, but not when it's going to lock me in on another two years. If the box is as good as you guys claim, then why doesn't Direct have a 30-day try-it program?

I've been using this forum for several years and have always been happy with the advice and information that I've gotten here, so I'll trust people when they say the UI is not as easy to use as Tivo. And while I'd like to see the box, I don't need to in order to know that I don't like what I'm reading. 

It's just like the E* dvr's. Some time ago there was a huge discussion on here about the quality and functionality of their boxes. But you guys weren't belittling people who had never tried one. Instead you took the word of those users that had tried both. It's the same case here, there is still plenty of discontent with the new Direct box from Tivo users to let me know it's not the quality I want to fool with, especially for 2 years.

There is nothing wrong with being a Tivo snob. It happens to be a great box that is easy to use. I'm able to run all 3 of my boxes in the living room along with the other equipment from one cheap easy to use remote. 

People have put up with the lousy Microsoft software because they don't know any better. And that's what's happening here. If there is no competition, then innovation suffers. When Direct only offers one product, then we as consumers suffer. I just don't see any innovation in what I read about in their box. In fact, it's just the opposite. Everything I read says they left things out, but are slowly getting around to having things that Tivo has had for a long time. 

When I upgrade, I look for something better then what I've got. I don't see that in what Direct is offering. Plus, everyone is talking about HD lite, so here again I'd like to see how the cable is going to do with the switched video before I commit for two years.

I'm a discerning customer that doesn't need to jump into something when there may be something else better. I can get HD locals OTA and don't see any other HD channels that I'm really interested in at the moment. (Direct priced themselves out of my market with NFLST. And I can get some of the games locally w/o compression.) 

I'm at a junction where Direct is no longer the company I thought it once was. I brought customers to Direct because of Tivo and now I'm glad to say that I just convinced someone to not sign up with them because of Tivo. So, I'm going to wait and see - hopefully there will be a new Tivo HD that I can use in the near future. In the mean time, I'll stick with my current Tivos and see how the market develops.


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## rjnerd (May 28, 2007)

drew2k said:


> It's a shame there's so much misinformation out there ...
> 
> The HR20 was designed with flexibility in mind: when using legacy WB68 multiswitches, the "add-on adapters", aka "BBCs", shift the signal from the new sats so that the HR20 tuners can process those signals. However, if using the new SWM (single-wire-module) multiswitches, the BBCs are not needed.


They knew what frequencies the new sats were going to use well in advance. Building things into the box is always cheaper than adding another (two!) boxes. The most expensive part of most consumer electronics is the box itself. If you can eliminate two of them, you do. It just speaks to me of a design that is confused at best.



drew2k said:


> Incorrect. People have swapped hard-drives inside the box. Pull the old, plug in the new. No software even needed on the new drive - the HR20 takes care of it when it reboots. The only issues is that most people have leased HR20s, so technically opening the box violates terms of the lease agreement. However, people have still done it. It's just far easier to plug in an eSATA drive and stay on the safe side of lease issues.


One drive is more reliable than two. (and the drives, containing actual moving parts are usually the least reliable part of the machine.) If you really want the capacity, not being able to touch the internal drive, is a limit. (with current drives, you can get 120hd hours/box, if you could swap the internal, you could get 180) Even if it is easy, since the box is leased, you can't touch the internal drive.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bonscott87 said:


> Might want to get your facts straight. The *only* threads I ever post in are ones where someone asks about an HR20 or the HR20 is discussed. I don't even open any others. Talk about Tivo all you want, I'll never know it.


So what you're saying is that everything you post here is something the forum owner has specifically asked to have discussed elsewhere.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

nrc said:


> So what you're saying is that everything you post here is something the forum owner has specifically asked to have discussed elsewhere.


Do I start such threads? No.
Do I actually try to help people? Yes.
Do I try to direct people to DBSTalk instead? Yes.

So if such threads are offensive, then why does anybody reply to them? Why not just let them die on the vine?

If the forum owner wishes there be no discussion then please, report every single thread about non-Tivo receivers and have them all closed as soon as they appear. That would take care of the problem, would it not?

If the mods aren't doing that then follow their wishes. DBSTalk is after all owned by the same people that own this very forum.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

rjnerd said:


> One drive is more reliable than two. (and the drives, containing actual moving parts are usually the least reliable part of the machine.) If you really want the capacity, not being able to touch the internal drive, is a limit. (with current drives, you can get 120hd hours/box, if you could swap the internal, you could get 180) Even if it is easy, since the box is leased, you can't touch the internal drive.


Plug in a 1 TB external eSata drive and that's all you need to do. Heck, some people have put 3 of them in a raid array and have 3 TB of space for recording. Can't get any easier then that.


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## rjnerd (May 28, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Plug in a 1 TB external eSata drive and that's all you need to do. Heck, some people have put 3 of them in a raid array and have 3 TB of space for recording. Can't get any easier then that.


Still leaves you with two (or more) motorized devices, a second power supply, and fan. If the box wasn't leased, I would stick the 1tb inside, more reliable, and quieter. Disk drives die, its their nature. The fewer involved, the better.

-dp-
http://www.the-nerds.org


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> Somehow a weekly update doesn't give me the feeling that this box is as up to par as you guys would like us to think.


The updates for the past few months haven't been directed at fixing bugs so much(although there are always stability updates and squash a bug here and there) but have been more about new features and functionality (a lot has gone on in the Media Bridge world which I've not been a part of). Soon it will all be about VOD testing. I'd much rather have DirecTV be active with the user community and listen to suggestions then to be quiet and closed and not do anything to improve the box.
There are some outstanding issues such as CIR which we keep hammering them on, but they have knocked out many of the wishlist items posed by the community. See, we are actually part of the process to make the box the best it can be. Instead of just complaining about it. There are things I complain about loudly about the HR20, but I also participate in the testing and offer my honest feedback to help make it better.

If that gives you a bad feeling then by all means, that is your right. DirecTV is my provider no matter what the DVR is, so my choice is to help.



RS4 said:


> My purpose in these recent discussions has been to point out that I think Direct made a rush to market with a product because of their desire to get rid of Tivo.


I don't think there is anybody that denies it was rushed a bit to market. It was rough last fall (although mine was stable). It was rushed not because of anything to do with Tivo, it was rushed because 1) Lots of pressure from the users/forums and media and 2) MPEG4 locals and RSNs were rolling out all over the place but they had no DVR to record them.

Sure, they could have waited until 1st quarter this year. But then I wouldn't have been recording HD for the 6 months before that. My choice.



RS4 said:


> I also believe that many people are looking at the new product with blinders. I believe the HR20 is a mediocre product at this point and that there are many apologists for it. Yes, there are features that the new box may have that Tivo doesn't, but it seems that reliability and usefulness of the interface leave much to be desired.


I think this is what you aren't getting. There are many, many people that are happy and having no troubles with their HR20s. Again you have no personal experience with it. I have had mine since Sept and have never lost a recording. So have many others. But you keep ignoring this fact as if it's some lie to make Tivo look bad. It's just not the case. Go over to DBSTalk or SatGuys and see the hundreds of people that have no problems.

I believe you that you have had no trouble with your HR10. But do you deny the many posts right in this very forum of people with tons of problems? I don't have *my* blinders on in thinking the HR10 is a pile of poo. It certainly is not. Just like *you* should not have your blinders on thinking the HR20 is nothing but crap.

Open your mind. You seem to think any positive post about the HR20 is an attack on Tivo. No idea why you think that, it's just not the case.



RS4 said:


> I've been using this forum for several years and have always been happy with the advice and information that I've gotten here, so I'll trust people when they say the UI is not as easy to use as Tivo. And while I'd like to see the box, I don't need to in order to know that I don't like what I'm reading.


So all of your rage against the HR20 is not based on any personal experience and all should ignore any post you have saying it sucks. Because you really don't know, do you? You could go to DBSTalk and get a different story. Heck, go to a neutral or Dish centric site like SatGuys and you'll get a different story, even DirecTV hater Scott G likes it. The only place where it's panned as total suckage is in this forum. Hmmmmmm. Just like Replay and UTV back in the day.

I'd still like examples that the UI is hard to use in your opinion. You can't say that if you don't have examples.

I'll give you a couple good things about the UI:
* Pull up the guide, find your show, click the record button twice. I just created a season pass. Can't get any easier then that.
* Pull up the guide, go to channel, left to channel number and hit info. One touch record a dozen movies for the next week in just a minute or so.
* Hit menu, select My Playlist (which is default selected), select your program and it plays. That's it, easy as pie, quick as all get out and you never leave the program you were watching or have to bring up the full menu interface.
* I choose to record something. It tells me I already have 2 things set to record during that time. It actually gives me the ability to choose either of the 2 to cancel.

That's not to say that some things could be better (such as the prioritizer buried in the Help and settings menu). But to pan the whole UI *which you've never even seen or used* just seems not right, don't you think?

See, I *knew* the UI was different when I got the HR20. I went in with an open mind knowing it's not a Tivo. I was excited to learn a new interface (as I always am). What I didn't do is go in with a *closed* mind with the attitude that "man this thing isn't a Tivo and is just going to suck". With that kind of attitude it's going to be kinda hard to accept it.

And guess what? The UI doesn't suck, it's just different. I've heard it's very much like the old Ultimate TV UI (which was panned to death here on these boards half a decade ago, imagine that).

------------------------

All I can post on is my personal experience. And that has been great (so far). Why you think it's all lies when you have never even used the box yourself is beyond me.

So please, I suggest you turn down your venom just a bit on a product you know nothing about personally. Ignore such threads in the future if you must.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

rjnerd said:


> Still leaves you with two (or more) motorized devices, a second power supply, and fan. If the box wasn't leased, I would stick the 1tb inside, more reliable, and quieter. Disk drives die, its their nature. The fewer involved, the better.
> 
> -dp-
> http://www.the-nerds.org


I guess who cares?  
Internal drive isn't even used when you plug in an external drive.

Oh well, not every solution is a fav.

Remember that 99% of the public with these DVRs will never open them up to replace a drive. An external solution is perfect. User calls up and orders the drive, they are shipped on, they plug it in and are done. Easy support. You can't be having users open up boxes and keep support costs down.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I guess who cares?
> Internal drive isn't even used when you plug in an external drive.
> 
> Oh well, not every solution is a fav.
> ...


Also with an external drive, if you ever have to send the DVR back you won't lose your shows! Right there is the #1 reason!


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

gio1269 said:


> Also with an external drive, if you ever have to send the DVR back you won't lose your shows! Right there is the #1 reason!


Unfourntently that is not the case.
Just like the internal drives... the recordings are tied to that EXACT unit.

So if the unit is replaced, the recordings on the external are not accessible by another system.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> Unfourntently that is not the case.
> Just like the internal drives... the recordings are tied to that EXACT unit.
> 
> So if the unit is replaced, the recordings on the external are not accessible by another system.


Damn! That's the stupid thing yet! I thought this would be an awesome feature! That's SUCKS!!!! that needs to be fixed somehow!


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

gio1269 said:


> Damn! That's the stupid thing yet! I thought this would be an awesome feature! That's SUCKS!!!! that needs to be fixed somehow!


What then stops you from taking that hard drive, with PPV or other content on it..
Taking it over to a buddies house and watching it there...

It's all about the DRM..

However, there should be a mechanism where they can remarry (due to a replacement) the external with the new system....

And probably in time there will be... right now eSATA is unofficially supported on the system


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bonscott87 said:


> If the forum owner wishes there be no discussion then please, report every single thread about non-Tivo receivers and have them all closed as soon as they appear. That would take care of the problem, would it not?


That's absurd. So instead of you simply following the request of the forum owner and mods to keep HR20 discussions on an appropriate forum you suggest that we should harrass the mods to make them enforce the policy.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

nrc said:


> That's absurd. So instead of you simply following the request of the forum owner and mods to keep HR20 discussions on an appropriate forum you suggest that we should harrass the mods to make them enforce the policy.


As a mod in the "other forum".... we rely on the user base to report threads that are against the rules....

As we simply can't read every thread, every post in those thread (as much we like to).... and the report the thread/post tool... goes to all the mods/admins of the board, so if anyone of them are around...

They can evaluate the thread/post and make the necessary adjustments...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

rjnerd said:


> They knew what frequencies the new sats were going to use well in advance. Building things into the box is always cheaper than adding another (two!) boxes. The most expensive part of most consumer electronics is the box itself. If you can eliminate two of them, you do. It just speaks to me of a design that is confused at best.


Not at all. In fact, it speaks to me of a well thought out strategy to minimize costs as DirecTV moves forward with the MPEG4 rollout. Part of this rollout will eventually include replacing multiswitches with new SWM (single-wire-module) multiswitches. With SWM, only one RG6 line is required from the switch to the receiver to enable dual-tuner recording, so two lines aren't needed. This new SWM switch also decodes the new KA signals, so the BBC is not needed. As more users upgrade and as SWMs are rolled-out, there will be less and less of a need for BBCs. However, those not using the new SWM switch will need the BBCs. The bottom line is since not all users need to use BBCs, the cost of the BBCs was saved by not including hardware within the DVR that later on will serve no purpose to those using SWM switches.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> As a mod in the "other forum".... we rely on the user base to report threads that are against the rules....


I'm not suggesting that the mods should be expected to find every problem thread on their own. I'm saying that forum participants have a responsibility to follow the rules of the forum. If you can flatly state that you only ever post about the HR20 on this forum then you're willfully ignoring the rules of the forum.

The excuses for this amount to "he started it" and "make me".


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Maybe if Notorious TFB TyroneShoes hadn't made his snide comment this thread might have died out since several posters made an attempt to redirect the OP's query.

I know that I made the first response to a thread started by someone looking for info on a R-15 redirecting the poster to that forum on DBSTalk, but folks wouldn't let it die, they had to chime in, which kept bumping the thread.

Here's the thing- if you're going to restrict talk about competing platforms, restrict *all* talk. Don't just restrict the positive comments while letting detractors have free range.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

nrc said:


> That's absurd. So instead of you simply following the request of the forum owner and mods to keep HR20 discussions on an appropriate forum you suggest that we should harrass the mods to make them enforce the policy.


So what exactly do you suggest I do?

All I simply do is answer the question, short and sweet, and direct the poster to a better place to discuss further. The thread should then just die out.

And then I and others get attacked for that by people like you who then bump the thread up and create a big deal over nothing.

So instead it sounds like you'd rather that the poor poster who doesn't know what's going on get no help whatsover. How about actually being a helpful nice human being to these people? Answer the question and direct them to a better place to discuss further. Wow, that is just so wrong isn't it?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

RS4 said:


> Somehow a weekly update doesn't give me the feeling that this box is as up to par as you guys would like us to think.


There is no "weekly update." The weekly downloads are TEST code not releases. The national releases are every couple of months. Somehow I prefer that to the long drawn out fixes and upgrades of the Tivo box. Sorry, buddy, DirecTV is being proactive and doing things (mostly adding functionality to the box) while Tivo sits back and doesn't even let the user base know what it is working on.



RS4 said:


> Sure, I would have like to have tried the box, but not when it's going to lock me in on another two years. If the box is as good as you guys claim, then why doesn't Direct have a 30-day try-it program?


I don't know. Why does AT&T not have a trial period on cell phones? Since DirecTV locked you into a commitment even when you ordered a Tivo from them, does that mean the Tivo box is crap? They lock you in for everything you do, including ordering an upgraded dish. The commitement isn't about the HR20, it is about the service and keeping customers overall.



RS4 said:


> I've been using this forum for several years and have always been happy with the advice and information that I've gotten here, so I'll trust people when they say the UI is not as easy to use as Tivo. And while I'd like to see the box, I don't need to in order to know that I don't like what I'm reading.


Yet you don't believe the SAME PEOPLE when they tell you the HR20 is a good box? You do realize that most of the HR20 users are ex- or current- Tivo users? They are the same folks you "trust" but you only trust them when they tell you the HR20 is bad but not when they tell you it is good? Did you ignore the fact that I have both running and I find myself using the HR20 more and more every day even though at one point I thought Tivo was the be-all end-all?



RS4 said:


> It's just like the E* dvr's. Some time ago there was a huge discussion on here about the quality and functionality of their boxes. But you guys weren't belittling people who had never tried one. Instead you took the word of those users that had tried both.


Try doing that yourself. The guys you are arguing with are long time Tivo fans. Like me.



RS4 said:


> It's the same case here, there is still plenty of discontent with the new Direct box from Tivo users to let me know it's not the quality I want to fool with, especially for 2 years.


How many times do we have to tell you you are wrong? Go hang out on dbstalk and find out. See how many of the same names that were here consistently are now pretty happy HR20 users. Look at the report cards on the software releases and then judge. You have made up your mind and won't listen to we who have actually done the work and are using the boxes.



RS4 said:


> There is nothing wrong with being a Tivo snob. It happens to be a great box that is easy to use. I'm able to run all 3 of my boxes in the living room along with the other equipment from one cheap easy to use remote.


There is nothing wrong with liking tivo. But being a snob is always wrong.



RS4 said:


> People have put up with the lousy Microsoft software because they don't know any better. And that's what's happening here. If there is no competition, then innovation suffers.


Really? Gee, I sure wonder how DVDs ever happened. There was no competition. They and CDs were just invented to sell more product. There was no real competition.



RS4 said:


> When Direct only offers one product, then we as consumers suffer. I just don't see any innovation in what I read about in their box. In fact, it's just the opposite. Everything I read says they left things out, but are slowly getting around to having things that Tivo has had for a long time.


Yeah. Sure. MPEG4 is not innovation. Good one. The single wire module is not a step forward. Seamless internet integration is not keeping up with technology. The interactive stuff (including getting stats about a game you are watching) and Game Lounge are all old news. Right. I wonder why they are putting all this stuff into the HR20 since they have no competition. If your statement were right, they wouldn't do anything at all.




RS4 said:


> I'm a discerning customer that doesn't need to jump into something when there may be something else better. I can get HD locals OTA and don't see any other HD channels that I'm really interested in at the moment. (Direct priced themselves out of my market with NFLST. And I can get some of the games locally w/o compression.)


The quality of the NFL HD games matches OTA. But you wouldn't know that. You are just assuming now.



RS4 said:


> I'm at a junction where Direct is no longer the company I thought it once was. I brought customers to Direct because of Tivo and now I'm glad to say that I just convinced someone to not sign up with them because of Tivo. So, I'm going to wait and see - hopefully there will be a new Tivo HD that I can use in the near future. In the mean time, I'll stick with my current Tivos and see how the market develops.


No, that iust spite. You felt jilted. Well you are wrong. DirecTV is pretty much the company I bought from in the 1990s. More programming for better prices. Adding programming without raising the prices thru the roof (Comcast upped the price 2 bucks around here BECAUSE they added ONE channel...D* added it without a price increase). They bring more sports to the table than anyone else. Just as they did in the 1990s.

You are looking only at one thing. Your blind love of Tivo. A software that is not keeping up with the times. I can tell because of all the complaints about the S3. (Not really, just using your measuring stick.)


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bonscott87 said:


> So what exactly do you suggest I do?
> 
> All I simply do is answer the question, short and sweet, and direct the poster to a better place to discuss further. The thread should then just die out.


Of course that's not strictly true, is it? You take every opportunity to advocate for DirecTV and turn threads in that direction when you can. In fact, in most cases the question has already been answered before you post.

This is a TiVo forum. Many TiVo users are unhappy that they currently have no future with DirecTV. That's a perfectly natural and appropriate sentiment to express in a TiVo forum. The notion that every user expressing that sentiment invites or requires a rebuttal is the result of a failure to understand that this is not a DirecTV forum. If anyone should just be letting these threads die out it's the DirecTV apologists.



> So instead it sounds like you'd rather that the poor poster who doesn't know what's going on get no help whatsover. How about actually being a helpful nice human being to these people? Answer the question and direct them to a better place to discuss further. Wow, that is just so wrong isn't it?


Nonsense. There are plenty of other people here who can answer peoples' questions. People who are HR10 users who are actually here to talk about TiVo. Questions won't go unanswered without your spin on things.

My suggestion? Follow ebonovich's lead and save your DirecTV evangelism for a DirecTV forum.


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## rjnerd (May 28, 2007)

drew2k said:


> Not at all. In fact, it speaks to me of a well thought out strategy to minimize costs as DirecTV moves forward with the MPEG4 rollout. Part of this rollout will eventually include replacing multiswitches with new SWM (single-wire-module) multiswitches. With SWM, only one RG6 line is required from the switch to the receiver to enable dual-tuner recording, so two lines aren't needed. This new SWM switch also decodes the new KA signals, so the BBC is not needed. As more users upgrade and as SWMs are rolled-out, there will be less and less of a need for BBCs. However, those not using the new SWM switch will need the BBCs. The bottom line is since not all users need to use BBCs, the cost of the BBCs was saved by not including hardware within the DVR that later on will serve no purpose to those using SWM switches.


So you suggest that they are anticipating few installs into old setups, thus the two add-on kludge is cheaper than building the tuner to have a bit more bandwith.

But then you say they have a single cable solution. If this is the case, it would likely be cheaper to replace the switch boxes, and eliminate an additional connector on the back of the unit. If they actually make a couple of million of the things, eliminating $0.50 of connectors and the extra cabling at install, will add up to significant amounts of change.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

nrc said:


> Of course that's not strictly true, is it? You take every opportunity to advocate for DirecTV and turn threads in that direction when you can. In fact, in most cases the question has already been answered before you post.
> 
> This is a TiVo forum. Many TiVo users are unhappy that they currently have no future with DirecTV. That's a perfectly natural and appropriate sentiment to express in a TiVo forum. The notion that every user expressing that sentiment invites or requires a rebuttal is the result of a failure to understand that this is not a DirecTV forum. If anyone should just be letting these threads die out it's the DirecTV apologists.
> 
> ...


Oh well, you just don't get it. Nobody is stopping people from talking about Tivo. If someone asks a question about the HR20 I answer. Someone posts an incorrect statement about an HR20 feature, I'll correct it. That's it and it's that simple. If you can't see that then you are blind. Please put me on your ignore list then.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

nrc said:


> My suggestion? Follow ebonovich's lead and save your DirecTV evangelism for a DirecTV forum.


Now that is a humorus comment....

#1: For the first half of the 2000's... TiVoCommunityForum *WAS* the defacto DirecTV discussion forum.... It was the one of the top forums to discuss anything about DirecTV... even if it didn't have to specifically to do with DirecTiVo

#2: "Evangelism"... In the past I classified myself as a TiVovanglist when we had threads on that topic... I brought a lot of people into the TiVo fold over the years, and in turn to DirecTV because it just made $$$ sense......

BUT.... While I will talk about, and to a degree "defend" the HR20... it is far from evangelism.... as to those considering a change, I will just provide them with the details.... and let them decided about which way to go.... I am not out there saying... SWITCH SWITCH SWITCH!!!!! change providers...

I learned a long time ago, that is not something that should be done... everyone has their own free will and should be allowed to make up their own opinion when provided with the information on the topics.

#3: Why did I leave? This thread is almost the definition of why I have stayed away (I still do come back here daily to read what is going on so I don't fall out of the loop, and yes as of late I have posted to corrected incorrect statements... like this one).

TCF once was a fantastic USER community of people who really only wanted the best out of their experience... but evern since the announcement that the DTiVo series was to end, and that the DVR+ series was comming out.... the attitude switched.... Instead of constructive discussion... it turned into more of a fight, in almost every thread....

Placing blame everywhere... and slowly became TiVo can do no wrong, and DirecTV can do no right.... which I guess ultimately is what you expect out of a forum that carries the name of that product.

Yesterday I was about to post and comment that you must be a relative nuebie... but looking at your join date, you have been here longer then I have been...

So you obviously should be aware of what TCF (especially the DirecTV sub-forums) where like, not just 2 years ago.

A LOT of us... have been here for the better part of a decade now..

But please.... If the questions are asked about the HR20, or the R15.... in this forum... then it is obvious that someone hasn't gotten the message, that the discussion for those boxes are else where...

So typically the attempt is to answer the question, then direct them to DBSTalk...
But at times, like this thread.... it continues... and continues... and continues.

Search engines still report TCF as a place to discuss DirecTV... not just the DTivo.
So until no one comes to this forum looking for anything but TiVo answers... there is going to be some overlap.

Maybe it is just an opinion of mine, as a moderator... 
At DBSTalk, I won't allow incorrect statements to be made about either product... DVR+ or DTiVo... why shouldn't this be the same here? 
Why can't incorrect statements be corrected, and information shared?

Or should we (those who know the system, work with the system) just to let it slide, as no one really wants the real answers?

It isn't evangelism, or apologizing.... we are not making this stuff up... it is what it is.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

The fact remains that many Tivo users do not like the HR20 and you guys are misleading people here when you tout the opposite. I saw yet again today where a Tivo user said he saw an HR20 at his brothers house and he wanted nothing to do with it. I've seen that kind of remark time and time again - "it's fine for people who don't have a Tivo, because they won't know any better"

I've looked at the other forums and I've seen the issues with the HR20 - simple ones still not resolved such as the OTA not being able to scan for local channels - if it isn't in the Direct database, you can't watch the channel. If this box has been undergoing development for 2 years and that's what you've got today, that is not my idea of a well though out box.

I've seen other items such as features not working *"More than even the loss of the dual buffers, the main problem I have is the Channels I Receive bug that all the DirectDVR's have, which is that you cannot define the channels you actually get. This has caused the machine to not record shows I have asked to have recorded, because it goes to channels I don't have! Very frustrating."* and the answer from apologist Scott was *"Don't use autorecord searches and you won't encounter this bug."* That sounds well thought out to me - not!

Despite what you all may try to let on, many many Tivo users do simply not like the box when it is compared to the Tivo. Therefore, we will wait and see what happens.

There was also a remark about the NFLST HD being as good as OTA. That simply is not the fact, because Direct is compressing the signal. Any time you're getting less then the original, you're not going to get the same quality as the original. I want a quality signal that I will be happy with - not something that is so compressed that it ruins the quality.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

"We" are misleading people, and the segments you quoted are misleading either... in the context they are presented.

So I ask you: what is misleading about the statements:

There are people like the HR20... Is that a false statement?
There are people that don't like the HR20... is that a false statement?
There are people that once had TiVo that like the HR20... is that a false statement?
There are people that once had TiVo that still don't like the HR20... is that a false statmenet?
There are people that never touched an HR20... who don't like the HR20... is that a false statement?
There are people that have used an HR20 for a day, that don't like the HR20... is that a false statment?

There are people that it took them a little while to get used to the SIGNIFICANTLY different GUI on the HR20... and at first disliked it, but now like it..... is that a false statement?

-------------

There are no absolutes here....

Just because there was one poster that went to his brothers house, and tried it for a day... he doesn't like it... thus it is a horrible DVR...

There are plenty of remarks like that "it's fine for people who don't have a Tivo, because they won't know any better"... Because guess what... it could be true... for some users...
Heck... what if the DVR+ series came out first, and everyone learned THAT GUI first...

Going to the TiVo is a PITA, as you are used to something difference....
After now using the interface for nearly 2 years... I have a very difficult time navigating the TiVo box... not because it is not a good GUI... is that I am so used to something else...

Don't you think that plays a part into the initial dislike for the product....
-----

OTA doesn't scan... Yep... it doesn't scan... done... TiVo is a better box with regards to that feature. It is a choice in feature they made... has nothing to do with a "well thought out" box.

DLB's..... I love that topic... DLB hasn't been around for 2 years in the DVR+ series... and yet... all the people that said they will leave if it doesn't come... haven't seen that mass exit yet. DLB's is what it is.... It was a mechanism to watch two live programs... There are ways to watch two live programs on the HR20... or god forbid... you record the other one... and watch one live, and watch the other one later....

DLB's are a nice little feature... and one that pretty anyone would be glad to have... 
So another plus to the TiVo series for the DLBs.

-------------
Channels I Recieve.
Well TiVo's implementation is not perfect either... if DirecTV adds a channel (or drop/ads) they get back in there and your auto-search records are affected.

The only recordings that are affected by the deactivation of the Channels I Receive bug, is auto-search records... it does not affected Series Links or Individual records... unless the user doesn't understand what channels they have, and sets the recording up on the wrong channel.

Well... if you would take the extra 30 minutes of research to find out WHY CIR was deactivated, you woudl understand that when it was first activated, there where cases when it would say you didn't have a channel ... and then couldn't record at all on that channel.

Sadly... the PROPER fix for it, was something very significant to do... and took a long time to complete... but for that particular one... We shouldn't be talking about CIR anymore, very soon.
---------------------

So let's talk about a bit about the things TiVo doesn't have:
-) Space Indicator... isn't that one of the top requested features?
-) Group Play... isn't that another popular requested feature?
-) Caller-ID... built in, no need to hack and add a third party solution
-) Easy Drive replacement... The T3 has it, but unless you are a PC person and like to tinker, you are not adding any space to your DTiVos very easily
-) Single Tuner Overlap... (aka where you can overlap programs on the same channel, and not use your 2nd tuner)... wow... hows that for "not thinking about the box"... 
-) Quick Single Button record, series settings
-) Bulk Delete, including an entire folder
-) Quick Delete (double dash)
-) Even if you have 1 SAT signal, and OTA... you can record one of each... Not like the TiVo where if you only have 1 SAT, you are stuck... and can't even record an OTA when it is in use.

We could do that all day, comparing what one has... and the other doesn't....
*They are not the same product, nor was there an intent to make it the same*

---------------------------------------------------------
Last time I checked: NFLST isn't available via OTA.... so maybe the comparison to ones local network... sure... there maybe a visual difference, because of the MPEG-2 compression...

And based on all indications, this will be the last season for NFLST in MPEG2-HD... so while it still maybe the case this season... next year, it may no longer be a factor.

But with regards to MPEG-4 (which I think is where that discussion was leading)

Ummm... there is no arguing the mathematics behind compression... that affectes the zero's and ones.... but your eyes don't see the 0's and 1's.

So untill you have sat in front of the MPEG-4 signal, coming from my Fox affiliate... and can tell me that the MPEG-4 version and the OTA have any noticeable differences, both audio and visual.... cry me a mathematical river.

And besides... that glorious OTA signal... it is compressed too... so it is not as good as it can be. Guess that makes it flawed too.

A true CD will always be better then a MP3... but there is a point that you can not hear a difference between the two... same happens with the quality of the MPEG-4..

I would bet you that if you ran a side by side comprasion of the OTA signal and the MPEG-4 signal in some markes (like Chicago)... You would get inconclusive results of which one is better... aka meaning that there is no definitive better one over the other.

Why I say some markets, as DirecTV is updating all their MPEG-4 encoding centers, some have been compeleted... some are still under the upgrade process.

------------------

Again... there is no absolutes here....
You as an individual can only make up your own mind... that is all I ask.

And god forbid that people out there want to make their opinion known, and let other know their opinion... oh wait, isn't that basis for a discussion forum?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> and the answer from apologist Scott was *"Don't use autorecord searches and you won't encounter this bug."* That sounds well thought out to me - not!


So it's being apologist to state that a feature isn't working and offering a workaround until it's fixed? Amazing....just amazing...


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Yes, you folks are misleading. You come onto a Tivo forum and imply that the HR20 has the same quality and usefulness as the Tivos, when many current and former Tivo users still disagree with that. You give the impression that everything is fine with the new box, when in fact people are still having reliability problems. Most of you ignore the fact that a lot of Tivo users don't like the box, so yes, you are misleading Tivo forum users.

It appears to me that Direct via Murdoch and others decided to scrap Tivo. During that process, they came out with a box with NDS that came no where close to Tivo. Then they decided that they had to develop the HD box on their own. So, that tells me they were not happy with NDS either.

So, they've spent the last year or two coming out with their own version of HD DVR. Most people compare that to a cable company dvr - yeah it works, but it ain't a Tivo. But this box is clearly in its infancy. And so, it takes one step forward and two steps back. It's clear in my mind that this product was rushed to market and now they're trying to see if they can get it up to speed so that it actually does something and can keep doing it on a steady basis. You guys keep beta testing and maybe it will amount to something in another year or two. But, it still hasn't matured to the stage of a Tivo.

I'm on a Tivo forum. I want a Tivo replacement because I feel that is superior to what I've seen and read about it the market today. There is nothing wrong with those of us wanting to wait to see what develops with SDV or perhaps a Tivo / Direct new product. In the mean time, we'll hold on to what we've got.

As for innovation, I believe I would rather look at the independent Tivo. It's obvious that Direct purposely held back features that they are still doing today. Direct could have used the Tivo features and I believe that both companies would have benefited greatly. I for instance would like to get the Amazon movies. I haven't seen anything about the other box that I haven't read about Tivo looking at or already doing it.

As for the Series 3, Cablelabs has held up many of the features that were in the S2.

So, I and many others will stick with Tivo and see what develops over time. Of course, many of us hope to have a Tivo mpeg4, hopefully with Direct. If not, we'll consider the alternatives.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> Yes, you folks are misleading. You come onto a Tivo forum and imply that the HR20 has the same quality and usefulness as the Tivos, when many current and former Tivo users still disagree with that. You give the impression that everything is fine with the new box, when in fact people are still having reliability problems. Most of you ignore the fact that a lot of Tivo users don't like the box, so yes, you are misleading Tivo forum users.


Sorry, but nobody is saying or said the HR20 is perfect and nobody has stated that nobody has problems with the HR20. Exactly the opposite in fact. You need to learn to read better or get your emotion out of your reading.



> But, it still hasn't matured to the stage of a Tivo.


It records what I tell it too. What more do I need? Just because some people have problems it's not matured? You still won't answer the question that since people have problems with the HR10, does that mean it's not matured also? Come on now.



> There is nothing wrong with those of us wanting to wait to see what develops with SDV or perhaps a Tivo / Direct new product. In the mean time, we'll hold on to what we've got.


No there is nothing wrong with that. But other people posting want the reality of the situation and to know their options.

The reality is that there is no MPEG4 Tivo for DirecTV and there isn't one planned. That is the fact.

They want to know what their options are.

Options are simply this:
1) Move to another provider. Dish (no Tivo). or Cable (possible S3 Tivo use until Switched Video rolls out, perhaps a Comcast or Cox Tivo if they get it out the door)
2) Stick with DirecTV and get an HR20 so they can get all the new HD
3) Stick with DirecTV and not get an HR20, hope Tivo will come back, watch all the HD light up that they can't get. Also will lose the HD they do get over time. Then have to make a choice again of moving to another provider or get an HR20 (or keep waiting for Tivo).

Hey, you can do whatever you want, but people want to know the options.



> As for the Series 3, Cablelabs has held up many of the features that were in the S2.


So who's making excuses now.



> So, I and many others will stick with Tivo and see what develops over time. Of course, many of us hope to have a Tivo mpeg4, hopefully with Direct. If not, we'll consider the alternatives.


And good luck.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Where are we ignoring that a lot of TiVo users don't like the box? Where... seriously... where are we ignoring the fact that there are users of TiVo, other DVRs, no DVRs... that don't like the HR20?

How about the fact that some people don't like the TiVo?

"We come here"... We've been here... from basically the start.... At least for my self, and bonscott and drew, and a few other others.... this is no march on to "holy" ground, claiming it.

Heck... my R15 review was posted here original (and is still available in the archives)....
---------------

Here is the part... you have your opinion of the DVR+ boxes, that it is no where touching the TiVo... where here is a news flash for yah... your opinion is not the opinion of every user out there... You are well capable of making up your own opinion... but don't make it up for everyone else out there.

Last time I check... not one of us... not a single one of us, were in any of the boardroom meetings between TiVo and DirecTV...

None of know the EXACT reasons why certain features where not available on the platform.
Did TiVo want more money for them? Was their security concerns? Or just DirecTV just want to stick it to their customers?

We don't know... we will probably never know...

---------
So you say it is in it's infancy... based on what your personal experience?
The two HR20's I have in my living room, have far exceeded the HR10-250 I had there (and I had one on the first day)... neither have been replaced (nor has the third that I deactivated). I had to replace the HR10-250 three times.

I can do everything I did before with my HR10-250... reliable on the HR20...
I wish everyone could say the same thing.... but I acknowledged the fact that some have not had the same fate as me.
Just like the people that have posted here with their problems of the HR10-250... what... are they lying? Or do they have the not-so mature version of the product?

Great... happy that you are here on the TiVo forum... but you are also in a sub-forum for DirecTV... and no matter how you want to slice it... the other DVR platform from DirecTV has a bearing on the discussion here.

Why? September 2007... the start of the new HD networks, and the start line for the transition of the old ones. That has a MAJOR MAJOR Impact on the HR10-250... and DirecTV.

Why does ever "new' product have to be ground braking an innovative? I am sorry that a lot of people viewed the HR20 as the next "upgrade" from the TiVo... but it was never billed as that.....

As for the Amazon Movies... well, great... TiVo is keeping their independences and trying to reach out for more programming.... but let's see if that feature is going to be availble on the Comcast or Cox integrated units.....

So... guess what... it is now someone else to blame for the lack of features on the T3...
CableLabs has their reasons... and if TiVo doesn't want to meet CableLabs restrictions, so they can offer those features.... who is too blame.... poor oh TiVo... No one wants us let us do what we want to do....

--------
Why wait.... start to consider your alternatives now..

You can have all the high hopes in the world about Liberty, and what it may bring.

So long as TiVo, Inc stays an indpendent company, and is not purchase by DirecTV Group, or it's parent company.... There will *never* be a DirecTV MPEG-4 TiVo powered unit.

That is my opinion... based on the 7 years I have been around seeing this relationship, and seeing what have seen.... there will never be a MPEG-4 DTiVo...

Even if today, they decided to bring one to market.... you would be looking at almost 2+ years to get it done.

It has taken almost 3 years for them to stuff TiVo software into the Comcast box...
There is not even a hint yet of the COX version...
How long do you think it would take to stuff it into the HR20 hardware?
How long do you think it would take to build a new one, that addresses any and all issues that made it not the choice 3 years ago...

---------------

So you want to call all that misleading? Great... your opinion.
But to not acknowlege that there are people happy with the HR20... that are not having issues... that it is not the status quo for every HR20 user out there.... is equally misleading.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

RS4, I really can't add much more to what Earl has said, but I do want to throw this out:

I am one of those people who have used (and continue to use) and loved (and continue to love) my HR10 - DirecTiVo. Had is since March 2003.

Based on your comments, if I tried the HR20 and hated it, you would take my word for it that it was a horrible POS because, after all, I use and love TiVo so I must be telling the truth.

Let me tell the truth now: I use and love TiVo, and I use and *love my HR20*. For some reason, though, when I include those last three words, my opinion becomes invalid. Why? Simply because the HR20 is not a TiVo.

You admit you have not used the HR20 but cite the many threads you have seen (titles only? Or have you actually read them?) about problems with the HR20. Put the shoe on the other foot and consider someone looking at TiVo for the first time. How many threads here at TCF are there talking about problems and missing/delayed features? There's a lot, so that potential new user could be scared away, thinking TiVo must be a POS. However, there are many more users who have no problems with TiVo, so the voice of reason prevails and visitors can get informed decisions.

The same is true of the HR20. There are just about the same number of "problem" threads at DBSTalk about the HR20 as there are here about TiVo. And there are way more threads with people happy with their HR20, also balancing it out, so the voice of reason prevails and visitors can get informed decisions.

Does TiVo have problems? Yes. Does HR20 have problems? Yes. Does TiVo have users who never had problems? Yes. Does HR20 have users who never had problems? Yes.

Bottom line: Neither TiVo nor HR20 is the POS DVR that casual uninformed observers think they may be.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

RS4 said:


> The fact remains that many Tivo users do not like the HR20 and you guys are misleading people here when you tout the opposite. I saw yet again today where a Tivo user said he saw an HR20 at his brothers house and he wanted nothing to do with it. I've seen that kind of remark time and time again - "it's fine for people who don't have a Tivo, because they won't know any better"
> 
> I've looked at the other forums and I've seen the issues with the HR20 - simple ones still not resolved such as the OTA not being able to scan for local channels - if it isn't in the Direct database, you can't watch the channel. If this box has been undergoing development for 2 years and that's what you've got today, that is not my idea of a well though out box.
> 
> ...


Well I am a HR10-250 Tivo user and I love the HR20! I have had a Hughes D* TiVo for almost 3 years and a HR10-250 for a year now.

Ever since the 6.* updates on the HR10, I have had nothing but problems. I have had 3 HR10 replaced for various reason but I still loved it.

After the 6.3d update the HR10 became to unreliable to count on everyday. It would lock-up, and the FF X1 speed would not work.

I got fed up and tired to get another HR10 replacement and was informed they are GONE for good finally. I was pissed and did NOT look forward to the prospect of getting a perceived piece of crap in the HR20. BUT I did not feel like getting a new HDD fro the HR10 and start over.

So after looking around @ DBS talk and wanting the new HD channels coming I ordered a FREE HR20-700.

After almost 2 months I am VERY pleasently surprised by it! It's been very reliable, better SD picture quality over the HR10 and the M4 HD looks as good as the OTA picture I get. I also love the network ability and the overall speed.

Now I do wish it had DLB, but this is not biggie. A wish list feature and a SPM more similar to TiVo's would be the icing on the cake for me.

Would I go back to me HR10 full-time if it was perfect, NO! I am very happy with the HR20. Would a HR20 with TiVo GUI be better? Nice but not really better. It's different but not bad in any way.

I think you need to get your head out of your backside and try the HR20 before criticizing it so much. They are PLENTY of people that complain about their TiVos as well. Hell, this happens with ANY type of equipment.

I am in the cycling industry and you should hear the complaints and arguing on which $6,000 frame and $4000+ wheels ride better....


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

This has been one hellofa campaign. Make it stop.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

JimSpence said:


> Here's the link to the HR20 forum.
> http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112





JimSpence said:


> See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=271336


.....


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

True. 

But with all due respect, this thread could have died a nice quiet death at post #4 if the dogs wouldn't have been called out and started in with their attacks again (which we've talked about already in this thread).

Instead we had to have attacks on the HR20 immediately and thus the thread is what it is today, a 5 page thing that should have ended in 4 posts with the simple direction you gave to DBSTalk. But nope, the thread had to be attacked immediately.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (and this isn't directed toward you Jim): If you don't want to see HR20 posts, then don't respond to them. Let someone answer the question and direct them to the proper forum for a deeper discussion on the topic if needed (ask a mod to close if you want). Then the post should die and roll off the front page with just a few posts. If you attack it then you are only creating a discussion you obviously don't want.

And with that, let's let this thread die, shall we?


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

fasTLane said:


> This has been one hellofa campaign. Make it stop.


It certainly is puzzling. Maybe advocating the DirecTV DVRs should be declared political commentary?

I heard a rumor that all these supposed DirecTV shills are really Liberals in disguise; once they get this beachead established they are going to flood TCF with quotes from Marx and Engels.

They must be stopped now, before it is too late. Our honor, our way of life, our very lives themselves are at stake.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Redux said:


> It certainly is puzzling. Maybe advocating the DirecTV DVRs should be declared political commentary?
> 
> I heard a rumor that all these supposed DirecTV shills are really Liberals in disguise; once they get this beachead established they are going to flood TCF with quotes from Marx and Engels.
> 
> They must be stopped now, before it is too late. Our honor, our way of life, our very lives themselves are at stake.


Spoken like a true NEO-CON RIGHT-WING NUT!


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> All I simply do is answer the question, short and sweet, and direct the poster to a better place to discuss further. The thread should then just die out.


"Short and sweet?"

You're kidding, right?  LOL....



bonscott87 said:


> The updates for the past few months haven't been directed at fixing bugs so much(although there are always stability updates and squash a bug here and there) but have been more about new features and functionality (a lot has gone on in the Media Bridge world which I've not been a part of). Soon it will all be about VOD testing. I'd much rather have DirecTV be active with the user community and listen to suggestions then to be quiet and closed and not do anything to improve the box.
> There are some outstanding issues such as CIR which we keep hammering them on, but they have knocked out many of the wishlist items posed by the community. See, we are actually part of the process to make the box the best it can be. Instead of just complaining about it. There are things I complain about loudly about the HR20, but I also participate in the testing and offer my honest feedback to help make it better.
> 
> If that gives you a bad feeling then by all means, that is your right. DirecTV is my provider no matter what the DVR is, so my choice is to help.
> ...


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> "Short and sweet?"
> 
> You're kidding, right?  LOL....


Well, my initial post is short and sweet. Then the dogs come out and rip the thread up thus causing non work related typing when bored.


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