# Premier vs Moxi



## csallen (Sep 26, 2002)

I've had TiVo since series 2. I still have one in use with a lifetime subscription. I've migrated to dual tuner series 2 then to two TiVo HD and now to premiere.

I've been patient waiting for improvements to the latest box but continue to use it in SDUI. So I've paid $200 buck to upgrade to what I already own. The iPad app is somewhat impressive for the box I bought but does not interact with the RCN box I rent. 

Of late TiVo has truly failed to impress or simply deliver which has me thinking about a move to Moxi. 

Thought?


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## tombonneau (Mar 26, 2009)

Do a quick search and I think you'll find lots of good info on the topic of Moxi vs Tivo. Also, check out avsforums.com. There is a rather large thread there devoted to Moxi.

From my understanding, you'll have a much prettier UI, but their future seems up in the air, so don't expect any active development or improvement in Moxi. It's basically WSYWIG at this point, whereas Tivo should (hopefully) continue to improve/update.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

I have both. Anything in specific you want to know?


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

I did a lot of research into Moxi about 2 years ago before I bought my HD XL. I've read or seen nothing to regret it yet. 

Of course, that was nearly 2 years ago and not much has changed over at Moxi. It looked good for a while, especially with the 3 tuner model and Moxi Mate.

Then they got bought out and Moxi makes TiVo look like a "trailblazer" in comparison, the last year or so.


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## Stevesreed (Jun 24, 2002)

tombonneau said:


> whereas Tivo should (hopefully) continue to improve/update.


I really wish that was true, but the Premier has been out for over a year and they still have not converted many of the menus to use the same high def UI look and feel, or updated the NetFlix app so it does not reset the screen when launched. Not to mention enabling the second core to improve performance.

At this point, I would consider the Tivo Premier as a WYSIWYG device. I've lost all faith that Tivo will ever finish the UI. They will introduce the Series 5 or something and move on, leaving us with a half done system forever...


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

deandashl said:


> I did a lot of research into Moxi about 2 years ago before I bought my HD XL. I've read or seen nothing to regret it yet.
> 
> Of course, that was nearly 2 years ago and not much has changed over at Moxi. It looked good for a while, especially with the 3 tuner model and Moxi Mate.
> 
> Then they got bought out and Moxi makes TiVo look like a "trailblazer" in comparison, the last year or so.


Say what you will about the Moxi but its a solid performer. Ive never had a random reboot like I have with my Premiere. Its a good unit.. it has some quirks tho which make me prefer the Tivo over it. Most of it has to do with streaming and remote response which I feel are both a little weak.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

csallen said:


> Of late TiVo has truly failed to impress or simply deliver which has me thinking about a move to Moxi.


Moxi has its positives, but is also unfinished in some ways. As in it can be rough around the edges. Unfortunately, I have no reason to believe their new owners (Arris) will do anything more with the platform in retail. I haven't heard a peep from them in a year, and their video on demand offering never materialized. Not sure when the last software update went out. Rumor had it many of the original engineers were details to other projects after the acquisition. Basically, despite how good the platform may be, I'd be reluctant to buy in at this point.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

Stevesreed said:


> I really wish that was true, but the Premier has been out for over a year and they still have not converted many of the menus to use the same high def UI look and feel


Actually that is wrong. They have not converted *any* of the SD menus to HD.



> or updated the NetFlix app so it does not reset the screen when launched.


It is not that they haven't updated NetFlix to fix a particular issue- it has never been updated *at all*. It is even the same exact UI and experience as the 3 year old TiVo HD.



> Not to mention enabling the second core to improve performance.


As has been discussed over and over, there is no guarantee that enabling the second core would result in any significant/noticeable improvement in UI speed unless the UI is threaded, which it is most likely not. Throwing more hardware at poor software design is not really the best solution, anyway. One must note that there have been some significant (but not big) performance improvements since the Premiere release.... causing the HD interface to go from "so slow as to be almost unusable", to "just annoyingly slow" now. I am confident that proper design changes and optimization could make that go to "acceptably fast"... although it probably will never be "wow fast" or "kewl fast" without threading it and using more cores (possible with updates), or having a faster processor (not possible with this box).



> At this point, I would consider the Tivo Premier as a WYSIWYG device.


Agreed. Buy it for what it is and what it does now, without any further expectations. Otherwise, you are probably in for a disappointment. Some of the stuff it does quite fine, other stuff is just "OK", other stuff is moldy/oldy but works, other stuff is buggy/unreliable/annoying/slow.



> I've lost all faith that Tivo will ever finish the UI. They will introduce the Series 5 or something and move on, leaving us with a half done system forever...


I am fairly certain if TiVo comes out with new hardware that has newer/better software features than the Premiere and they don't fix the Premiere or offer a nearly free "upgrade" (including transferring LifeTime status), I will never upgrade to another TiVo product and seek out any possible alternative. Many Premiere customers would feel exactly that way, as they should... betrayed.

Still, let's not completely write off TiVo. They could still surprise us. Just don't COUNT on it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

And also the Premiere has not been out a year yet

Just over eleven months.

It came out at the end of March 2010.

Maybe in another year they will have converted one SD menu to HD.

At least one can hope.


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## tombonneau (Mar 26, 2009)

I'd also say, csallen, that if you are looking to go OTA, I'm testing out a box called Sezmi which has nice HD UI and has a really nice user experience. They just nail all the little things. And while they are a bit of a roll of the dice as to whether they make it, they are actively developing the software and based on old review/criticisms they seem to have fixed lots of issues. 

I'm real close to dumping cable and using Sezmi over TiVo. Of course if you are looking at Moxi you're probably looking to keep cable.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

crxssi said:


> I am fairly certain if TiVo comes out with new hardware that has newer/better software features than the Premiere and they don't fix the Premiere or offer a nearly free "upgrade" (including transferring LifeTime status), I will never upgrade to another TiVo product and seek out any possible alternative. Many Premiere customers would feel exactly that way, as they should... betrayed.
> 
> Still, let's not completely write off TiVo. They could still surprise us. Just don't COUNT on it.


Properly implementing asynchronous multithreading is a software issue, apparently made difficult by Flash's inability to handle multithreading. Unless newer hardware is needed so that TiVo can abandon Flash, it probably wouldn't make much difference. If they can fix the software for a new box, they can fix it for the Premiere. And it would be very much in their interest to do so, unless they plan to cultivate a whole new customer base.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

L David Matheny said:


> Properly implementing asynchronous multithreading is a software issue, apparently made difficult by Flash's inability to handle multithreading.


I completely agree. And I believe that is exactly the issue with making use of dual core.



> Unless newer hardware is needed so that TiVo can abandon Flash, it probably wouldn't make much difference. If they can fix the software for a new box, they can fix it for the Premiere.


I was only speculating that if something happened that would shift them to a new hardware platform (different chipset, different architecture) and then abandon the Premiere (no more significant updates). HIGHLY unlikely, though. I probably shouldn't have even posted that.



> And it would be very much in their interest to do so, unless they plan to cultivate a whole new customer base.


Again, totally agreed. Makes zero sense to destroy their and alienate existing users at a time when their user base is shrinking and their competition is heating up. I think their priorities should be (in order):

* Address and fix any and all stability issues
* Address performance and usability issues with proper reprogramming/design of the HDUI
* Add a method to backup (and restore) all settings to removable media and/or the "cloud"
* Update sub-components like Netflix
* Thread the sucker and use the other core
* Convert more (many) SD menus to HD
* Add new features, such as streaming to and from DLNA

That is a really long list. Unfortunately, not much has be addressed from MY list over the last year. Adding an "ipad app", in my view, was a slap in the face.


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## OCSMITH (Mar 16, 2006)

KungFuCow said:


> I have both. Anything in specific you want to know?


If you had to give up one, on cable not OTA, Tivo or Moxi? Been eyeing one on ebay. How does the DLNA work? ( I have a Popcorn Hour C-200) How about the mate? Thanks


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

OCSMITH said:


> If you had to give up one, on cable not OTA, Tivo or Moxi? Been eyeing one on ebay. How does the DLNA work? ( I have a Popcorn Hour C-200) How about the mate? Thanks


Thats a tough decision. MAYBE the Moxi but only because I do a TON of streaming and the Tivo is better at it. By better I mean it will stream faster.

That being said, the Moxi has a lot of upsides. With PlayOn, which you get a license of with the unit, you have Hulu, and a bunch of other stuff you can stream to it as well. So I guess it all depends if you want to stream your own stuff or stream off the internet.

I will say this. Moxi's tech support kicks the sh*t out of Tivo. You can chat with them online (And yea, I know Tivo does that too) but you're chatting with guys that REALLY know the ins and outs of the unit. Ive never had an issue they couldnt resolve, they usually follow up and they freely give you all their contact info to get in touch with them if you have any issues.

I was having a guide issue earlier this week. Got a tech online, told him what was up, he pushed me guide data, we checked again and it was the same. So the guy pulls up the channel lineup for the area I live in, googles the town's zip codes and tries various zip codes until he found one that pulled the right lineup (Mine did not). I called Tivo with this same problem (The Moxi case actually transpired over two different chats, the Tivo call was in the middle) and I couldnt even get them to understand what I was trying to say. "So youre saying the channel says FOX but its really ESPN? Well whats on ESPN? Is it the video feed or the guide data?" and no matter what I did, they didnt get it. After the Moxi guy found a zip code that worked, I reran guided setup and changed the zipcode.


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## Claire199 (Dec 3, 2010)

I bought a premiere xl but also rent two moxis from my cable company. Since it is impractical to use the HDUI on Tivo (so, so slow) I use the SD, so I prefer the Moxi interface. Tivo's SD interface doesn't shrink the t.v. screen when you go into menus so you must leave what you are watching to do so, and it is a pain. Also, the Tivo screen (HDUI) is substantially smaller than on Moxi.

I can barely live stream on Tivo and have given up on it. (I can use the on-demand on Moxi. I bought a Tivo because my cable company is phasing Moxi out, and the old ones they are renting have 12 HD hours storage. Unfortunately, we have the Tivo in our Family Room because of the storage.) If I had it to do over, I would buy a Moxi instead of a Tivo. I joined Netflix, and even though I can't stream, I like it and think it's worth the money.

My cable company will begin renting Tivos w/45 hrs. storage, which is adequate storage, this year sometime, so that will suit me. Using on-demand is fine with me. Of course, if Tivo fixes the Premiere, I'd stick w/it, and buy two more.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

I love the idea of TiVo. I know TiVo is in a tough market. I wanted TiVo to succeed. But TiVo doesn't seem very interested. 

I'll NEVER understand things TiVo has done; and ESPECIALLY things TiVo has NOT done.


Deal with Comcast (what was the point? Was TiVo a sucker? Did it save Comcast license fees?)

Deal with DirecTV (what the heck is taking so long? Was TiVo a sucker?)

Not updating the S3 UI to a real (as least, basic) HDUI. Could've been an opening platform for S4 development, too.

Why did the HD's have the same basic HW as the S3? (why not update AT LEAST network speed for streaming on HD)

Not creating a third tuner Premiere XL.

No streaming TiVo extenders (usable alone, like Roku, AND/OR with S4's)

Why will they NOT finish the S4 UI?
Why flash anyway?
Had there been ANY serious UI work before the relative S4 release?
Where did the "TiVo Search" on the S3 come from? Was it a rough S4 UI or abandoned S3 UI?

Before the Premiere came out, I thought TiVo had the future figured out. A deal with Comcast, Cox, RCN would help. Some advertising would help. Ratings data would help. DirecTV would REALLY help. Virgin. Lawsuits would help with $$$ for short term. New S4 box would be BIG UI upgrade and stimulate sales, after all, they had done LITTLE with the UI for years.

In the end, the CUSTOMERS just lost interest. Because NOTHING, ever gets FINISHED.


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## indychris (Jan 15, 2011)

Some good thoughts and questions there, dean. Kind of makes you wonder if TiVo isn't seeing dollar signs in working things out with these other corporations and have forgotten who got them this far. Maybe this whole DTV relationship has sidetracked things?

http://support.directv.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/77/~/directv-relationship-with-tivo---new-hd-dvr


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

deandashl said:


> Deal with Comcast (what was the point? Was TiVo a sucker? Did it save Comcast license fees?)
> 
> Deal with DirecTV (what the heck is taking so long? Was TiVo a sucker?)
> 
> ...


Comcast - TiVo got a tens of millions from comcast deal in regular installments. In fact I suspect if they had not made that Comcast deal that TiVo was at that point close to the edge of throwing in the towel. TiVo knew it needed more than standalone market.
as for the DVR - comcast insisted on stupid things on stupid hardware. That box never had a chance

DirectTV - there has been a lot of features added to DirectTV, the project changed significantly after the timeline was made.

When the S3 was designed the chips available could never support a real UI.
The TiVo HD was an update of those chips and thus works internally better than the S3. The same network chips used on THD to keep costs down, likely.

to go to 3 tuners the chips in the TiVo would be changed out - it is the tradeoff Moxi made -- no OTA and no analog capable when going to 3 tuners. TiVo has a good niche in OTA - it would have been foolish to drop OTA

TiVo does need streaming, a client would help sell boxes as well but not sure it can be made cheap enough

TiVo search was the first look at how to do the HD UI and get the all in one concept down. So yes UI work done long before premiere hardware. Flash was supposed to allow for easy component plugin and app store - not a word on those since.

finishing the HD UI would be nice, but it seems TiVo hit some serious problem on the dual core and is likely sorting that out first. The stuff still in SD really does not matter to me though - I am unconvinced more HD UI would sell more boxes


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo does need streaming, a client would help sell boxes as well but not sure it can be made cheap enough


I believe TiVo will not probably not support compatible streaming to/from foreign devices (like DLNA/Rokku/game consoles/etc) because they would prefer to lock customers into purchasing additional TiVos and service contracts. I think this could be their undoing, but we will see.



> The stuff still in SD really does not matter to me though - I am unconvinced more HD UI would sell more boxes


Agreed. That is why I pushed it down on my priority list. Reliability and performance really needs to be their #1 goal if they want to stay alive. Features galore mean nothing if negative word-of-mouth from customers destroys your future sales. Would you buy a car that your friends say is slow, stutters, and occasionally dies for no reason? I wouldn't!


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

When TiVo is gone or bought out in the next couple years, there is a GREAT book ready to go. Lots of lessons for other businesses.

1. When you have the best product, put effort into staying there.

2. You can make the best "TV search" engine in the world, but if the rest of your UI looks like Windows 3.3 it doesn't matter.

3. Don't stop developing your UI. It will help with current product sales (S3's) and means you are better prepared for future products (S4's)

4. Never negotiate with cable/satellite companies from a position of weakness. If you have a product that hasn't been worked on for 5 years there is NOT much reason for cable/satellite to do much for you, except drag their feet until you are out of business.

5. No matter how much someone loves your OLD product, if the new product looks exactly the same, your subscription totals are going to drop from 4.5 million to 2 million in 4 years. Um, I mean, they are NOT going to pay for the "new?" product.

6. Cable DVR's are nothing up front and a outrageous monthly fees. So don't charge for the DVR AND charge monthly fees. Wrap it all in at once. Dump the monthly fee concept altogether.

7. If the WHOLE ELECTRONICS WORLD is streaming..........DUH!!!!!

8. Don't tell everyone your "new" product is going to change everything and only complete 1/2 the product.

9. If your company is in trouble and slowly dying, make SURE your new product is a killer product and you finished it, and it works.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

crxssi said:


> I believe TiVo will not probably not support compatible streaming to/from foreign devices (like DLNA/Rokku/game consoles/etc) because they would prefer to lock customers into purchasing additional TiVos and service contracts. I think this could be their undoing, but we will see.


The concept is not really about streaming to "other" devices.

I and I think he meant a client like my "MiniTiVo" concept. A box that is similar to a Roku. It can do all the independent streaming like a Roku (Netflix, Hulu, etc.) but it can ALSO stream from a TiVo DVR like a MoxiMate.

TiVo could sell it individually like a Roku, AND sell it as an extender for a TiVo DVR...

ONE DVR
ONE cable card
ONE cable card fee
ONE cable access point
TV ANYWHERE around your networked house!!!


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## Claire199 (Dec 3, 2010)

As I posted earlier, I'm still using moxi and tivo. As I've gone from my bedroom (moxi) to family room (tivo) today thinking of this thread, based solely on user interface, Moxi is better. That's my opinion. Whether it is Tivo's SD or HD interface, compared to Moxi, I can't think of one thing I think is better on Tivo. I'm saying that even discounting the speed of the HDUI of Tivo, I like Moxi better. As I said earlier, a big plus with Moxi (to me) is that one never has to leave programming to do anything from checking on recordings, looking at other programming info to scheduling shows, etc. Another plus is that the minimized or smaller screen is bigger on Moxi as I said before, which is better. Plus even though I rent the moxi, I still receive all the updates so it is always improving in small ways. But of course, because the moxis are rentals, I can't add storage and that is a deal breaker. Obviously, if one purchases Moxi, storage isn't an issue.

We bought the Tivo Premiere XL with Lifetime Service and N Adapter. I wish I'd bought a Moxi instead of Tivo. The deciding factors at the time were the internet stuff like streaming Netflix which doesn't work on our Tivo, sometimes shutting down when we attempt to use it and our previous experience w/Tivo. In the end, one can't discount the slowness of Tivo HDUI when making a purchase. I think most people would or do switch to the SD because of it. There is no competition between Tivo's SDUI and Moxi's HDUI, imo.

Sadly, we spent too much to just toss the Tivo and switch. If I'd spent half as much, I'd consider it. Well, not toss it, but let our kids have it.


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