# TiVo posts $10.2m loss, remains on deathwatch



## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/08/tivo-posts-10-2m-loss-remains-on-deathwatch/

http://gizmodo.com/5488679/tivo-posts-102-million-loss-we-contemplate-dusting-off-our-funeral-garb

Tom Rogers was named President and Chief Executive Officer of TiVo, effective July 1, 2005. Where in about 12 month TiVo stared to lose growth in customers.....There is a correlation here.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

The only correlation that exists is the end of the DirecTV contract. That plus these guys have no idea what is going on behind Tivo, and their clear lack of looking into it means their posts border on the unlawful. Yes, Tivo had a loss. They also have a ton of money in the bank and a giant new revenue stream coming (licensing deals to pretty much all DVRs), plus the return of DirecTV (eventually), plus the deal with RCN. Those really aren't even controversial income streams in their future (at this point). So how are they dying? Now do I think Tivo will be around forever, probably not, but for the next 10 years, definitely. Also, I do recognize that there could be a time when Tivo stops selling standalone boxes, which if they got other's offerings to contain many of the features of theirs by then, I wouldn't care about.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)




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## bciocco (Mar 28, 2009)

Will we see an increase in TiVo users over the next couple of years as more people figure out that digital OTA is as good or better than Cable or Satellite and decide to make the switch?

I did this a year ago and have seen several others do the same. I do realize that die-hard sports fans will not give up their Sunday Ticket, ESPN or Fox Sports. For the rest of us, $1000 per year is a lot of money for something we can get for $129 per year or a $400 one time charge.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

yeah, i think Tivo should really try harder for the OTA market


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

I haven't been able to talk anyone into buying one since the ads started. Heck, I even failed to talk my brother into a series 4 just 2 days ago. No ads and I would of sold a hundred in the last 2 years on word of mouth alone. Sadly, I understand, nobody wants to pay monthly for a box containing more ads.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

While there are many products that contain ads as part of a subscription (eg. Magazines) Tivo needs to realize that consumers are averse to purchasing their particular product with ads while having to pay a monthly subscription fee (or a hefty lifetime fee). It may not be logical, it may not make sense on paper, but Tivo needs to understand that it is thier reality and make decisions based on this reality not the fantasy land in which they would prefer to exist. Good luck Tivo, I am pulling for you to come out on top in the end.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

I've never seen any ads on my TiVos that I didn't want to see.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

parzec said:


> While there are many products that contain ads as part of a subscription (eg. Magazines) Tivo needs to realize that consumers are averse to purchasing their particular product with ads while having to pay a monthly subscription fee (or a hefty lifetime fee). It may not be logical, it may not make sense on paper, but Tivo needs to understand that it is thier reality and make decisions based on this reality not the fantasy land in which they would prefer to exist. Good luck Tivo, I am pulling for you to come out on top in the end.


No TiVo box ad has interfered with the way I have been using my TiVo(s) in the last 5 years, it does not hold me up from doing what i want, none of the people that I know that have TiVos (about 40) have ever talked about the ads. How would TiVo make up the money from the ads, an even higher sub fee ? Or not make as much profit. Oh! that right, TiVo is not making any profit.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

Mike-Mike said:


> yeah, i think Tivo should really try harder for the OTA market


As if they aren't already? All TiVo Series 3 and above DVRs work with OTA.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Raj said:


> As if they aren't already? All TiVo Series 3 and above DVRs work with OTA.


And THAT is what really sets it apart from the Moxi box.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> I haven't been able to talk anyone into buying one since the ads started.


But your are so fair and balanced when talking about ads


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Kablemodem said:


> I've never seen any ads on my TiVos that I didn't want to see.


This isn't about you. It's about the perception the rest of america has. I can see additional ads as a reason people might not buy the TiVo. It's marketed as a premium product, typically those aren't subsidized by advertising.


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## TiVo Fool (Dec 17, 2001)

bschuler2007 said:


> I haven't been able to talk anyone into buying one since the ads started. Heck, I even failed to talk my brother into a series 4 just 2 days ago. No ads and I would of sold a hundred in the last 2 years on word of mouth alone. Sadly, I understand, nobody wants to pay monthly for a box containing more ads.


I really don't get all the whining about ads. TiVo has the most unobtrusive add placement I've seen. Ive just learned to ignore them and I really dont even see them anymore. The fact is TiVo helps me avoid more ads than any other media device I own!


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

bschuler2007 said:


> I haven't been able to talk anyone into buying one since the ads started. Heck, I even failed to talk my brother into a series 4 just 2 days ago. No ads and I would of sold a hundred in the last 2 years on word of mouth alone. Sadly, I understand, nobody wants to pay monthly for a box containing more ads.


Sorry, but I have to call BS on this post. Really...100, sure you would have. I am convinced the ads did these sales in....


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> This isn't about you. It's about the perception the rest of america has. I can see additional ads as a reason people might not buy the TiVo. It's marketed as a premium product, typically those aren't subsidized by advertising.


You've got to be kidding me. I've never seen a single ad on the Tivo HD that has bothered me at all. It's a complete and total nonissue. Why would anyone care if on the bottom of the Tivo menu there's an ad for Pizza Hut. Seriously, if this really bothers you, then you're just looking for something to complain about.


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## JTalbert (Jan 1, 2001)

Tivo continually disappoints me with their business model of coming out with a new device, forget about real updates to the older device. I am disappointed that the UI update will not work on the Series 3. But I have been a Tivo customer for 10 years now and I know from past experience. Once a new Series comes out, the older one becomes a two headed step child thats locked up and forgotten. Series 2 Tivos are still sold yet no real SW update for them adding new features since the Series 3 came out. If there was a viable alternative to Tivo, I would get rid of Tivo. I am tired of the push to force us to buy new all the time. They dont make money on HW anyways, its the monthly fee's. Tivo use to be a great company but not anymore. If they continued to improve and re-invent the SW and push the limits with SW I think Tivo would be in a much better position.

I for one at this point do not plan on getting a Series4. I have a Tivo HD which I have enough problems with Thank you very much, and two Series 2 tivos. My original Tivo, a Sony Tivo, even though I dont own it anymore its STILL Working.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

I was 100% serious about the 100 lost sales. I'm in a position that I am considered by many ahead of the pack in electronics and thus get consulted by friends, friends of friends, coworkers, etc. And like I said, just 3 days ago, I was consulted and my Tivo suggestion was shot down once again just because of the ads. You can ignore the ads if you want.. but the average consumer sees 1 ad and they say no. Thus lost sales. And yes, I still recommend Tivo over non-ad HTPC or Moxi.

As far as being fair and balanced.. Here I am not fair and certainly not balanced. I am 100% on one side, the same side as the majority of people who find ads intrusive and got DO NOT CALL lists created, unrequested faxes illegal, and door to door salesmen requireing permits. You can thank us later.

Sure but you guys are right, Tivo is different.. and history won't be the same in this one instance. LOL But to be honest. I don't own Tivo, or it's stock.. so I don't care.. Take the risk that people LOVE ads and run Tivo into the ground for all I care. I just think to survive they need to let the 3rd party (RCN Tivo)boxes have the ads and Tivo should offer the premium non-ad box as a reason to pay more and to compete with all the non-ad alternatives out there. Mark my words, ads are gonna sink this boat.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

bschuler2007 said:


> I just think to survive they need to let the 3rd party (RCN Tivo)boxes have the ads and Tivo should offer the premium non-ad box as a reason to pay more and to compete with all the non-ad alternatives out there. Mark my words, ads are gonna sink this boat.


Sorry, not a chance in the world that you are right. Ads are the only reason TiVo is alive and relatively prospering today, in an indirect sense. TiVo lived off their stock price for many years, and that stock price has always been heavily based on future revenue of ads. (TiVo has basically never made a profit in 12 years of existence, except for some tiny profits in a couple of quarters just to prove they could if they dropped all advertising and reduced development)

I agree that once the ad revenue from ads on the cable company TiVos comes in, it may be possible then to have a premium non-ad box, but the market won't support the entire company product being non-ad.


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## techmonkey (Jan 13, 2009)

Stormspace said:


> This isn't about you. It's about the perception the rest of america has. I can see additional ads as a reason people might not buy the TiVo. It's marketed as a premium product, typically those aren't subsidized by advertising.


But it of COURSE MUST be ALL about you, LOL. If you don't want to see ANY ads then you might as well never go outside, never turn on the TV, never go on the internet, and ya sure as the hell cannot answer the phone!!! LOL!!, people like this crack me up,


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

TiVo could not support itself when it was ad free, and witha one line ad per screen now - they still cannot.

I pay more monthly for the ability to use the internet and I am bombarded with a large number of ads. On most pages and in most email boxes I see some sort of ad (even on this site). Until ads are removed from the internet, that most people pay in some way to use, I do not see the internet ever becoming used by the mass market. I cannot see people paying $20+ dollars every month to get access to the internet only to see ads on nearly every page they visit. 

People will never put up with that, the internet will never be successful as long as people have to subscribe and pay money to a provider - only to see advertising on their computer. Imagine paying $1000 to $2000 for a good hardware (like a laptop) and nearly $100 a month for your connection and access to the internet, only to have to see advertising. That is almost criminal.

Next thing you know, people will pay over $100 a month for TV services (not to mention what they paid for their TV setup) like cable and stuff and see ads on nearly every channel. Imagine paying for a service and getting bombarded by ads through the very box the cable co gives you. People will never put up with that. I do not see pay TV service being successful either.

How many people do you really think would be willing to pay for the true costs of their electronic entertainment?


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

Just Fix it.






The real problem is TiVo has been losing customers.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> And like I said, just 3 days ago, I was consulted and my Tivo suggestion was shot down once again just because of the ads..


I must not have friends with OCDs.  I also am asked frequently about DVRs and it is usually the monthly sub or outlay of 800$ up front that has the person decide on a cable company DVR.
Others just simply don't get the idea of having a DVR when they watch their shows live anyway.

Some mention the ads as a minus, and I of course speak of them if they want that level of detail but none have said ads was anywhere near a deciding factor. It is always not seeing either a large onetime expense or a monthly expense as worth it for TV.

I see the major stumbling block to growth of DVR sales as people just still not getting why use a DVR.



bschuler2007 said:


> As far as being fair and balanced.. Here I am not fair and certainly not balanced. I am 100% on one side, the same side as the majority of people who find ads intrusive and got DO NOT CALL lists created, unrequested faxes illegal, and door to door salesmen requireing permits. You can thank us later.


I ran a large network for a company including PBX back in the day. I handed the AG of the state a boatload of data on a regular basis on who was calling our fax machines with ads. I also handed him spam sites that hit our company and made sure they ended up on the black lists of the day. You can thank me now for helping out. I am not blind to when ads are intrusive and beyond normal bounds. That type of junk has nothing to do with an image on my TV screen I can easily ignore. Thanks for proving again how unbalanced you are on this topic.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I see the major stumbling block to growth of DVR sales as people just still not getting why use a DVR.


My personal observation - no attempt to generalise.
Most of my friends are well to do, but eleven years ago when I got my first $500 14hr TiVo all of them without exception thought that I was crazy. Eleven years later most of them have DVRs but none has TiVo. I'm positive that it is not a money issue, they just happy with what they got from cable or satellite providers and see no reason to change. I don't blame them, myself I don't see a reason to buy another TiVo in observable future. New DirecTivo will have to have a wow factor for me to consider it. Something like Premiere will not cut it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> Ads are the only reason TiVo is alive and relatively prospering today, in an indirect sense.


eh - TiVo stock went up when it won a lot of cash.
ads are not even broken out as a line item they earn so little money. So I do not even think indirectly they contribute to SA profits.

What ads do is demonstrate the interactive nature of advertising in a noninvasive way on the TiVo box to someone like RCN or Comcast who then make deals like we see happening.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

NYHeel said:


> You've got to be kidding me. I've never seen a single ad on the Tivo HD that has bothered me at all. It's a complete and total nonissue. Why would anyone care if on the bottom of the Tivo menu there's an ad for Pizza Hut. Seriously, if this really bothers you, then you're just looking for something to complain about.


I didn't say it bothered me, but it's a perception issue people that don't already own TiVo's may have. I was just saying I could believe bschuler2007 comment about ads.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> My personal observation - no attempt to generalise.
> Most of my friends are well to do, but eleven years ago when I got my first $500 14hr TiVo all of them without exception thought that I was crazy. Eleven years later most of them have DVRs but none has TiVo. I'm positive that it is not a money issue, they just happy with what they got from cable or satellite providers and see no reason to change. I don't blame them, myself I don't see a reason to buy another TiVo in observable future. New DirecTivo will have to have a wow factor for me to consider it. Something like Premiere will not cut it.


well since you are a big DBS proponent it would be strange if you really wanted the Stand alone cable only DVR 
But yes - I did not put the 'no hassle' factor in there and that could even be bigger than any money issue overall.

I started early after the premiere launch in also noting that people like us who visit a DVR forum and are up on the technology are NOT the target audience. I a mnow thinking that folks browsing in a Best Buy are just an ancillary target audience to TiVo so they can give retail another shot. Read the earnings call - the target audience is clearly the MSOs, both locally and abroad and the fact of how the premiere puts all the content into one shiny package for such MSOs with a much faster time to market than in prior tries with Comcast and DirectTV.

how RCN goes for TiVo will be the big litmus test for TiVo this year.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

The only problem with us not being the target market, it still seems like they expect the target market to have us as friends. Most DVRs don't need an ethernet jack or if they do since they are installed by the cable company, the cable company also runs the line. How many average joes do you know with ethernet jacks next to their TV?

As it is now you either have to already have your home wired, find someone who will do it cheaper than the cable company which is usually $80 a jack, or invest in the wireless adapter which also assumes you know how to setup your router if you even have one which most likely the internet provider setup for you during the install. 

If they had included MoCA, I could see the point of this argument since at least the device would be a little more plug and play. You would still need a MoCa bridge to connect to the internet to download guide data, but at least you would be able to see other TiVos.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> eh - TiVo stock went up when it won a lot of cash.
> ads are not even broken out as a line item they earn so little money. So I do not even think indirectly they contribute to SA profits.


I'm mostly talking about before the court cases were a factor.

Where do you think all the money came from to keep TiVo running all these years of non-profitability? It didn't come from the initial investors or savings - TiVo went very close to being bankrupt getting the Series 2 out. It didn't come from debt - TiVo has none.

The money that kept TiVo alive and able to do research and development has always come from floating more stock, a hundred million dollars worth here, a hundred million dollars worth there. Institutional investors have been willing to keep on investing in TiVo because of the long-term potential in getting in on the ground floor of the TiVo targetted ads. Nobody has believed that simply subs will make TiVo profitable for a long time - not since the first couple of years (and even then, TiVo was pushing the ad potential). But TiVo offers one of the few ways of investing in the changed world which gets away from the pure network ads, but still offers the advertising capability which underwrites all the shows out there.

The ad revenue so far is negligible - it's the potential for the future that has kept investors keeping on coming back to TiVo, and supporting them all these years. And it's the ad potential that keeps the MSO's interested in considering TiVo as a partner.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

TiVo Fool said:


> I really don't get all the whining about ads. TiVo has the most unobtrusive add placement I've seen. Ive just learned to ignore them and I really dont even see them anymore. The fact is TiVo helps me avoid more ads than any other media device I own!


I agree. If someone held a gun to my head and asked me what ads are showing on Tivo, I would not be able to tell them. 
I think the ads _could_ be useful. When Tivo learns how target them to my interests, I might even look at some.


bschuler2007 said:


> Mark my words, ads are gonna sink this boat.


I don't think so. When Tivo first put ads on their DVRs, this forum was peppered with WTF posts, people claiming it's a slippery slope and threatening to ditch Tivo, etc. It hasn't happened, yet. 
I used to be one of the slippery slope believers, but so far, Tivo has kept things to a minimum.
You say you advocate Tivo, but are you sure you're not one of those guys who whisper "but you're not gonna like the ads, wink, wink, nudge, nudge" or do you try to explain how the ads are not intrusive?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the target audience is clearly the MSOs, both locally and abroad and the fact of how the premiere puts all the content into one shiny package for such MSOs with a much faster time to market than in prior tries with Comcast and DirectTV.
> 
> how RCN goes for TiVo will be the big litmus test for TiVo this year.


Well, TiVo has been trying to get in bed with cable companies ever since AT&T labeled S1 was offered for $20 a month with no upfront fee 10 years ago. The only successful MSO venture so far was DirecTV. IMHO Comcast is a failure and RCN has a chance if it is offered at the right price.
The problem I see with Premiere from MSO standpoint is what is advertised to be it's greatest strength - access to alternative content. But we will see.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> As it is now you either have to already have your home wired, find someone who will do it cheaper than the cable company which is usually $80 a jack, or invest in the wireless adapter which also assumes you know how to setup your router if you even have one which most likely the internet provider setup for you during the install.


Or find creative ways to run ethernet cable exposed.
I've got mine run up in the corner then across where the wall meets the ceiling. I don't even notice it most of the time.
Another run I was able to snake a fishtape underneath the carpet.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

samo said:


> Well, TiVo has been trying to get in bed with cable companies ever since AT&T labeled S1 was offered for $20 a month with no upfront fee 10 years ago. The only successful MSO venture so far was DirecTV. IMHO Comcast is a failure and RCN has a chance if it is offered at the right price.
> The problem I see with Premiere from MSO standpoint is what is advertised to be it's greatest strength - access to alternative content. But we will see.


If the Premieres are offered as part of a double/triple play deal, where internet access is included, the alt content might be, if not monetize-able, at least factorable. A TiVo might download large amounts of video data, but it's not (currently) torrenting or uploading(cable modem technology prefers downloads to uploads) very much. So, they *could* find an average amount for what a typical TiVo user is downloading and set the package price accordingly.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

steve614 said:


> Or find creative ways to run ethernet cable exposed.
> I've got mine run up in the corner then across where the wall meets the ceiling. I don't even notice it most of the time.
> Another run I was able to snake a fishtape underneath the carpet.


Most of the people I know aren't going to put in this effort though when the cable company DVR doesn't require it or like I said they do it as part of the install.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> Well, TiVo has been trying to get in bed with cable companies ever since AT&T labeled S1 was offered for $20 a month with no upfront fee 10 years ago. The only successful MSO venture so far was DirecTV. IMHO Comcast is a failure and RCN has a chance if it is offered at the right price.
> The problem I see with Premiere from MSO standpoint is what is advertised to be it's greatest strength - access to alternative content. But we will see.


 The CEO of RCN sees the broadband content delivery as a distinct asset. I bolded for emphasis.


you really should read the earnings report said:


> RCN's CEO, Peter Aquino, who has also joined us at our launch event last week, expressed his excitement for the new solution saying, quote, "We are proud to be leading the cable industry in the adoption of this groundbreaking approach to advanced television. TiVo will bring a whole new way for *our subs to experience television with TiVo's DVR and broadband television offerings.* I'm very pleased to report that based on our field test results, we will begin to roll out TiVo as our primary advanced box in all of our markets, one by one, in the second quarter of this year." Playing off of another operators tag lined, Peter said, quote, "This is big, this is even bigger."


and we all know that the Comcast box suffers from real hardware issues - in that the hardware chosen can not run much of anything. Thus being able to use the TiVo hardware designed to work with the tivoapp from the ground up will significantly change the ability to deliver to customers. This was also remarked on by TiVo in the earnings call. I am interested to see what the 'no hassle' and 'part of the cable bill' effect is on this offering.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

RCN and DirecTV TiVo will be a real test for the "forward looking statements".
Somehow I have a hard time to believe that cable or satellite providers will be willing to lose PPV revenues to Netflix or Amazon. They wouldn't care about YouTube or podcasts, but PPV is a biggest profit maker. I guess time will tell.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> how RCN goes for TiVo will be the big litmus test for TiVo this year.





samo said:


> RCN and DirecTV TiVo will be a real test for the "forward looking statements".


well that was only 4 or 5 posts for you to finally get to what I said from the get go


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> If they had included MoCA, I could see the point of this argument since at least the device would be a little more plug and play. You would still need a MoCa bridge to connect to the internet to download guide data, but at least you would be able to see other TiVos.


I agree. I think TiVo must include MoCA if they want to sell to the MSOs (and longer term I think that's their strategy). E.g. FiOS uses MoCA; they don't run an Ethernet drop to their STBs.

But that's a separate product. I'm not sure if it makes sense for TiVo to have included MoCA in the TiVo Premiere. You're not saying they should have included it instead of Ethernet, are you? You wanted both?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> The only problem with us not being the target market, it still seems like they expect the target market to have us as friends. Most DVRs don't need an ethernet jack or if they do since they are installed by the cable company, the cable company also runs the line. How many average joes do you know with ethernet jacks next to their TV?
> 
> As it is now you either have to already have your home wired, find someone who will do it cheaper than the cable company which is usually $80 a jack, or invest in the wireless adapter which also assumes you know how to setup your router if you even have one which most likely the internet provider setup for you during the install.
> 
> If they had included MoCA, I could see the point of this argument since at least the device would be a little more plug and play. You would still need a MoCa bridge to connect to the internet to download guide data, but at least you would be able to see other TiVos.


TiVo branded MoCA dongle with built in cable modem! :up:

Edit: whoops - got here late and didn't see the other responses.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I agree. I think TiVo must include MoCA if they want to sell to the MSOs (and longer term I think that's their strategy). E.g. FiOS uses MoCA; they don't run an Ethernet drop to their STBs.
> 
> But that's a separate product. I'm not sure if it makes sense for TiVo to have included MoCA in the TiVo Premiere. You're not saying they should have included it instead of Ethernet, are you? You wanted both?


Yeah both. The newer broadcom chips support MoCA on the chip from what I have read. Now whether the chip in the Premiere is one of them I don't know.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Kablemodem said:


> I've never seen any ads on my TiVos that I didn't want to see.


Heh.. There's a current ad showing up for uhh, a feminine product, that I almost signed up for due to mixed up remote clicks (I forget if I was trying to type ahead of it, or a button press was missed or what)..

I certainly didn't want to sign up for that! (and in general I am somewhat of a defender of the Tivo ads -- basically they're less evil than they could be)


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## Mikeyis4dcats (Oct 2, 2003)

I'd like to know how all bschuylers friends know about the ads before they buy a Tivo, unless he's moaning about how bad the ads are in his "sales pitch"

I hate ads, never watch commercials, block ads in my browser, etc. and I can't say I have EVER noticed or been bothered by ads on my Tivos.


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## mikebaratta (Feb 26, 2010)

I hate ads too. But I do agree that the tivo ads are unobtrusive and the only real thing I have against them is that they are ugly and clutter up the interface.

Funny thing is, on at least five occasions I've clicked on an ad and said "Hey, what the heck, send me some information" - And I have never received an email, phone call or snail mail.

Maybe that's why they're losing money?


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

I would assume it is because most of my friends know of my Facebook group, "Tivo - Enough with the ads." and have seen screenshots. But it could also just be a normal question they ask. Anyway, I don't see why I should HIDE the ads from my friends when it is a valid issue. An educated consumer is a good consumer, no? Or should I just let them call me up after getting one to yell at me, "WTF!, why didn't you mention THAT!". 

I dunno about you, but I like my friends and would like to keep them, so I don't keep dirty little secrets from them. For the record, I also mention the awesome PYTIVO, programmer support, Tivo2go, etc.. I also tell them the ads are mostly unobtrusive.. but hey.. it is their decision, not mine. And they all say no to Tivo. Like I said earlier.. I DO RECOMMEND TIVO and I am actually trying to convince them to get one, but I can never seal the deal just because of these ^*$ ads.

Also, a little off topic, you should check out this week's HDNation. They talk about the Premiere and even talk a little about their dealings with the company itself. None of it is flattering.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> The only problem with us not being the target market, it still seems like they expect the target market to have us as friends. Most DVRs don't need an ethernet jack or if they do since they are installed by the cable company, the cable company also runs the line. How many average joes do you know with ethernet jacks next to their TV?


That's why the TiVos should have wifi built in instead of making you buy a separate wifi adapter. Built in wifi will make it "plug and play".


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

bschuler2007 said:


> I haven't been able to talk anyone into buying one since the ads started. Heck, I even failed to talk my brother into a series 4 just 2 days ago. No ads and I would of sold a hundred in the last 2 years on word of mouth alone. Sadly, I understand, nobody wants to pay monthly for a box containing more ads.


I'll call BS on this too. I know six people who actually have a TiVo. Six people who I know well, and see with some regularity. They all know I'm a big TV watcher, and know that I love my TiVo. Whenever there is a question/problem relating to TVs or TiVos, they ask me. I've taught them basic tricks, like TiVo/TiVo for the NP List, and simple things like that. My point is, if there is a conversation to be had related to TiVo, they will have it with me.

Not a one has ever said anything about ads. Never. Not the star ads, not the grouped show ads, not the pause ads. I'm guessing they are all smart enough to figure out what they are, and ignore them.

Why can't you?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Raj said:


> That's why the TiVos should have wifi built in instead of making you buy a separate wifi adapter. Built in wifi will make it "plug and play".


It might make it more than it is now, but of all my friends and family I only know one person with a wireless network. They also are on FiOS which includes a wireless router. I have a wireless router also for the same reason, but mine is turned off. I can't get a wireless signal to reach from room to room so I had my friend wire my entire house.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> It might make it more than it is now, but of all my friends and family I only know one person with a wireless network. They also are on FiOS which includes a wireless router. I have a wireless router also for the same reason, but mine is turned off. I can't get a wireless signal to reach from room to room so I had my friend wire my entire house.


I do my own wiring for ethernet in my house. I have some wireless for kids laptops and Wii that works ok but anything stationary I like to wire up. 
Of course I used to admin a large enough network and had the duty of overseeing contractors who came in to run wiring for it. Learned a lot from those guys. 
Other folks may not have had quite as much training


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

Raj said:


> That's why the TiVos should have wifi built in instead of making you buy a separate wifi adapter. Built in wifi will make it "plug and play".


:up:

Speaking of ads, I don't think I've ever seen an ad for an actual TiVo product either on television or in print. Maybe they should advertise what they have to offer. You can't sail by on brand recognition when "TiVo" is used as a generic term for recording a show regardless of what DVR you use.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Yeah both. The newer broadcom chips support MoCA on the chip from what I have read. Now whether the chip in the Premiere is one of them I don't know.


The dynamics of the hardware business have changed since I "came of age".

It used to be that each and every function added to a product had a clear and definite cost. But now many products like TiVos are built with SOCs (systems on a chip). The SOC has a collection of functions built in, and they are there whether you use them or not.

Usually in a case like this, all that's missing is a simple PHY chip to do the actual connection between the SOC and the cable. That PHY is a small percentage of the total cost of MoCA. The gates are already there on the SOC, they have been paid for; the SOC vendor has already written a driver.

Too bad TiVo is fighting with Verizon. If they ever did a DVR specifically for FiOS, it might be cheap and easy to add MoCA.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> What ads do is demonstrate the interactive nature of advertising in a noninvasive way on the TiVo box to someone like RCN or Comcast who then make deals like we see happening.


In other words, TiVo has used their devoted SA market as guinea pigs. Shame on you TiVo. :down:

Oh, BTW, to the shills and apologists that still compare TiVo to magazine/newspaper ads, you still don't have a clue as to how the printed media business model works. TiVo is marketed as a PREMIUM CE product, like cell phones and iPods. Do Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, Apple, etc., push *unsolicited, provider supported, third party ads* to your phone or music player? I've read articles where cell providers have been thinking about it, but only with super-cheap service deals. I still haven't seen it on any of my AT&T provided devices, for which I get a hefty service bill every month. 



astrohip said:


> Not a one has ever said anything about ads. Never. Not the star ads, not the grouped show ads, not the pause ads. I'm guessing they are all smart enough to figure out what they are, and ignore them.
> 
> Why can't you?


It's called principle. Something that sock puppets and fanboys/girls lack. 

I like my TiVo for what it was originally designed to do, which is record a video signal on an automated schedule. I paid a premium price ($600) for this device+service. It is not a leased product. The hard drive space to store video is mine, not theirs. The advertisers should be paying *ME* to have their crap on it. 

Oh, and I'm "smart enough" to ignore the ads, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that they're there in the first place. :down:



Mikeyis4dcats said:


> I'd like to know how all bschuylers friends know about the ads before they buy a Tivo, unless he's moaning about how bad the ads are in his "sales pitch"


Moaning? Hardly. I see it as keeping his friends fully informed. None of the sales literature you see for TiVo ever mention that it is an ad supported box. You don't find that out until you buy it, get it home, break the seal on the box, dig out the user manual, then actually sit down and read the *ENTIRE* service agreement buried in the back of the manual.

Also, I've read some posts from way back that say that the ads don't show up until 30 days has passed on a new account. At that time, you're stuck in TiVo's stupid "lock in" period, à la cell phone contract. This may very well be an urban legend, but I thought it was worth mentioning nonetheless. 

___


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## oosik77 (Nov 22, 1999)

bschuler2007 said:


> I would assume it is because most of my friends know of my Facebook group, "Tivo - Enough with the ads." and have seen screenshots. But it could also just be a normal question they ask. Anyway, I don't see why I should HIDE the ads from my friends when it is a valid issue. An educated consumer is a good consumer, no? Or should I just let them call me up after getting one to yell at me, "WTF!, why didn't you mention THAT!".
> 
> I dunno about you, but I like my friends and would like to keep them, so I don't keep dirty little secrets from them. For the record, I also mention the awesome PYTIVO, programmer support, Tivo2go, etc.. I also tell them the ads are mostly unobtrusive.. but hey.. it is their decision, not mine. And they all say no to Tivo. Like I said earlier.. I DO RECOMMEND TIVO and I am actually trying to convince them to get one, but I can never seal the deal just because of these ^*$ ads.
> 
> Also, a little off topic, you should check out this week's HDNation. They talk about the Premiere and even talk a little about their dealings with the company itself. None of it is flattering.


Okay I just don't get it. What ads? I mean really you even notice them? They are at the bottom of any screen they show up on. I don't even see them. I guess my ability to tune out what I don't like exceeds that of you and your friends. Your loss, my gain.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

oosik77 said:


> ...Your loss, my gain.


I'm curious, what exactly did he "lose" and what did you "gain"? 

___


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Fixer said:


> In other words, TiVo has used their devoted SA market as guinea pigs.


 pretty much and I expect that trend will uptick as their ARPU upticks. I have a different opinion on the suck factor - since it also includes things like TiVoToGo, HME, Netflix and now flash widgets. 


> TiVo is marketed as a PREMIUM CE product, like cell phones and iPods. Do Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, Apple, etc., push *unsolicited, provider supported, third party ads* to your phone or music player? I've read articles where cell providers have been thinking about it, but only with super-cheap service deals. I still haven't seen it on any of my AT&T provided devices, for which I get a hefty service bill every month.


 TiVo is in a unique place compared to the others. Phone service, music and so forth are traditionally not ad supported to provide the content to you for free. You pay specifically to get cell reception and you pay for the music. TiVo is working in a business where the content is very heavily ad supported - to the point that a lot of the content would go away or get very costly if there was no way to make ads work. Now as you point out - these companies are also looking for ways to provide ad supported service. Seems unlikely to be significant though unless the ads can be on the devices screen - like many iPhone apps do as the apps advertise upgrades or other apps and services. There are ads on the iPhone - just not from AT&T or Apple directly.



> It's called principle. Something that sock puppets and fanboys/girls lack.
> 
> I like my TiVo for what it was originally designed to do, which is record a video signal on an automated schedule. I paid a premium price ($600) for this device+service. It is not a leased product. The hard drive space to store video is mine, not theirs. The advertisers should be paying *ME* to have their crap on it.


 sorry the TOS for a TiVo DVR specifically notes a partition of the hard drive will be reserved for TiVo software and other things they decide to put there, as long as the TiVo is under subscription service. They own the space by TOS as they are very much aware you own the physical hard drive.


> Moaning? Hardly. I see it as keeping his friends fully informed. None of the sales literature you see for TiVo ever mention that it is an ad supported box.


umm, maybe because it is not? You yourself point out it is a premium product and you pay good money to support the device. the TOS is clear that ads can be part of the service. Does directTV make a big deal that it reserves the right to place ads in its guide screen? Trying to put just TiVo in a bad light for something any business will do is not fully informing but more a display of bias against something a person dislikes more than usual.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

oosik77 said:


> Okay I just don't get it. What ads? I mean really you even notice them? They are at the bottom of any screen they show up on. I don't even see them. I guess my ability to tune out what I don't like exceeds that of you and your friends. Your loss, my gain.


I have a feeling that in the Premiere, these ads will be more prevalent and more difficult to avoid. You've seen what Flash has done to Web browsing -- why won't it do the same on a Tivo?

Most of us have ad-blockers and pop-up blocking on our Web browsers, yet we claim that ads don't bother us. Of course they do! We've just learned to turn them off or live with them.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

BobCamp1 said:


> I have a feeling that in the Premiere, these ads will be more prevalent and more difficult to avoid. You've seen what Flash has done to Web browsing -- why won't it do the same on a Tivo?
> 
> Most of us have ad-blockers and pop-up blocking on our Web browsers, yet we claim that ads don't bother us. Of course they do! We've just learned to turn them off or live with them.


I call BS to your post. I NEVER notice the ads on my two TiVos....and I watch a LOT of TV (probably too much  ).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> I call BS to your post. I NEVER notice the ads on my two TiVos....and I watch a LOT of TV (probably too much  ).


well there is your problem, duh.

you need to watch less shows and either pause them more or else spend more time looking at the menus.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I do my own wiring for ethernet in my house. I have some wireless for kids laptops and Wii that works ok but anything stationary I like to wire up.
> Of course I used to admin a large enough network and had the duty of overseeing contractors who came in to run wiring for it. Learned a lot from those guys.
> Other folks may not have had quite as much training


speaking of wiring, how would you do that in a condo? knock a couple holes in the wall and fish it through?


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

BobCamp1 said:


> I have a feeling that in the Premiere, these ads will be more prevalent and more difficult to avoid. You've seen what Flash has done to Web browsing -- why won't it do the same on a Tivo?
> 
> Most of us have ad-blockers and pop-up blocking on our Web browsers, yet we claim that ads don't bother us. Of course they do! We've just learned to turn them off or live with them.


Most of the 'annoying' things that can be done to a user with a flash based interface, whether web or tivo, could have been done with TiVo's existing interface. For examples: pop-ups, auto-playing videos (anyone remember the interstitial tests?), and 'forced pauses', to name a few off the top of my head.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

b_scott said:


> speaking of wiring, how would you do that in a condo? knock a couple holes in the wall and fish it through?


baseboards - first use a razor knife cut on the line where baseboard meets sheetrock. Make sure the razor knife is angled so it does NOT cut the sheet rock. You might use a little caulk when done to clean up the line.
get a prybar that works on baseboards and be very careful about the sheetrock - maybe get a piece of plywood to put behind the bar so the force on the sheetrock is spread out. Once you have the baseboards loose then you can run wire behind them or drill the hole down low so the baseboard will cover the hole back up again.

be sure to get a nailsetter so you can get the baseboard back in place again. Of course if you have thick carpet and the baseboard is up high enough then you can sometimes work everthing under the baseboard without removing it first.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

hmmm... stuff to think about. we'll have wood floors though. the only issue I see is it has to go past a ton of doors and I just don't know if it'll be worth it in the long run.


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## oosik77 (Nov 22, 1999)

Fixer said:


> I'm curious, what exactly did he "lose" and what did you "gain"?
> 
> ___


He said in an earlier post he didn't own Tivo or Tivo stock. I gain the use of Tivo and all the positives and he does not.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

Fixer said:


> Oh, BTW, to the shills and apologists ...


You want shills and apologists, check out Apple. TiVo fanboys are bush league compared to that cult. (BTW I own several Macs).



> I still haven't seen it on any of my AT&T provided devices, for which I get a hefty service bill every month.


Ironically, AT&T used to be my cable provider (for which I paid a hefty service bill) before they sold out to Comcast. And it was *ads* on their STB that were the primary reason I got a TiVo. Yes I wanted the time shifting etc, but I didn't really realize how much I'd like that until after I got the product. But I immediately knew that I hated the fuqqqing ads infesting my cable box.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

Who is feeding the company cash, who want to feed a losing company for 10 years?


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## jeffw_00 (Sep 19, 2000)

TiVo has ads? I never noticed...

TiVo could buy an 802.11 b/g OEM module for a few bucks/unit and put it in premiere - cheap alternative to MoCA


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> You want shills and apologists, check out Apple. TiVo fanboys are bush league compared to that cult. (BTW I own several Macs).


Yeah but PC users have been responsible for that defensiveness since day one (a bunch of narrow minded pin-heads that disparaged both the computer and its users because of the lack of a command line interface). 

I think the TiVo fan base is pretty well split between the folks that appreciate what TiVo does well and those that feel frustration over the almost non-existant level of innovation since the core product debuted. Note that I am not saying it hasn't evolved, but what has evolved over the last 10+ years is mind-numbingly little for a microprocessor based consumer electronics device.


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## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

I'm not a troll, but I had pre ordered a Premiere XL. Then I looked into Moxi and sadly I canceled my tivo ordered and ordered a moxi with the mate.

I don't understand why tivo cannot have a 3-tuner option with a remote access box (like the moxi mate). 

I have to agree with the original poster, when this Premiere fails with a thud. It looks like from my internet searching it will, I hope someone buys there database and continues to supply the guide data. When that day happens it will be sad indeed.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ciucca said:


> when this Premiere fails I hope someone buys there database and continues to supply the guide data.


I am pretty sure that is a given, so long as there are subscribers. ReplayTV still supplies guide data and they were dead years ago. It is an automatic revenue stream, even without the ads (ReplayTV had no ads), for any company with the skills to manage it for profit.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ciucca said:


> I have to agree with the original poster, when this Premiere fails with a thud. It looks like from my internet searching it will, I hope someone buys there database and continues to supply the guide data. When that day happens it will be sad indeed.


Thanks for your concern.  People have been predicting/worrying about the end of guide data for a decade now, but it's nice to see that you too care.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

MickeS said:


> Thanks for your concern.  People have been predicting/worrying about the end of guide data for a decade now, but it's nice to see that you too care.


Too bad for Moxi users if they ever go under. With no recurring sub revenue, why would anybody bother to offer this service for Moxi users? One easy to see flaw with the Moxi box.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

daveak said:


> One easy to see flaw with the Moxi box.


That is the same old tired argument about TiVo as well. I think the chances of Moxi going completely away within the expected service life of a DVR is practically zero. Buy the one that fits you're needs the best now. It is not an investment class purchase.


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## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

daveak said:


> Too bad for Moxi users if they ever go under. With no recurring sub revenue, why would anybody bother to offer this service for Moxi users? One easy to see flaw with the Moxi box.


Dave you have posted the same paragraph about Moxi going under too numerous to count. Perhaps you work for Tivo?


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

oosik77 said:


> He said in an earlier post he didn't own Tivo or Tivo stock. I gain the use of Tivo and all the positives and he does not.


I said I did not own Tivo, as in the company. The only thing you may have gained over me is the ability to mentally block 1/4 of your TV screen from your eye sight. I am more than willing to not gain that handicapped ability thank you.

As for owning a Tivo. Yes.. I currently own 2 ad sprewing Tivos. Thus I decided to try to make the product better by voicing my opinion on ads and to educate consumers on their existance on Tivo's products. Even with all the Tampax and beer ads, I still recommend buying Tivo to friends... but I do alert them to the ads as I can attest, they can get VERY annoying VERY quickly.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

"VERY annoying VERY quickly"? I'm with the ones here that literally do not notice the ads. I have no idea how you can find them "VERY annoying", when I barely register them at all. Weird.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I must say I don't notice them. I rarely pause TV and if I do it is because I am doing something that took my focus off the TV. Off the top of my head that is the one most people complain about that I can remember.

Oh I remembered they sometimes have something at the bottom of a folder but I couldn't tell you what.

I am the same type of user though who doesn't use 30 second skip and never have. I just fast forward through everything because occasionally I do see something like a commercial for a new show that www.thefutoncritic.com didn't have on the calender.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Who is feeding the company cash, who want to feed a losing company for 10 years?


DirecTV, Comcast, Cox, RCN, Seven Networks, Cablevision, and me.

Oh, and of course our favorite, Dish Network.


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## miller890 (Feb 15, 2002)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Who is feeding the company cash, who want to feed a losing company for 10 years?


I am guessing not these guys.

TiVo big-wigs selling on the decline after the $300M annoucement. Thomas S. Rogers, chief executive of TiVo, sold 300,000 shares for $4.8 million, an average price of $16.10 each on March 11. Still holding 627,825 shares. $2.8 million sale by director Randy Komisar on March 11 and 12. Komisar sold 174,863 shares at an average price of $16.20 each.


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## rockislandmike (Sep 20, 2005)

samo said:


> My personal observation - no attempt to generalise.
> Most of my friends are well to do, but eleven years ago when I got my first $500 14hr TiVo all of them without exception thought that I was crazy. Eleven years later most of them have DVRs but none has TiVo. I'm positive that it is not a money issue, they just happy with what they got from cable or satellite providers and see no reason to change.


People as a whole are lazy. If the cable/satellite companies can provide them with what they want (if they do want a dvr), it's just a lot easier to get from them, than get a tivo, connect it, and figure out how to use it. The cable companies just make it far easier to use their hardware, and that's far too steep an uphill climb to fight.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

rockislandmike said:


> People as a whole are lazy. If the cable/satellite companies can provide them with what they want (if they do want a dvr), it's just a lot easier to get from them, than get a tivo, connect it, and figure out how to use it. The cable companies just make it far easier to use their hardware, and that's far too steep an uphill climb to fight.


true.

I'll be over at my best friend's place and try to do something on his comcast DVR that my Tivo does, only to realize "oh, it doesn't do that." I am loyal to the interface and usability of Tivo for as long as they're around.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

MickeS said:


> "VERY annoying VERY quickly"? I'm with the ones here that literally do not notice the ads. I have no idea how you can find them "VERY annoying", *when I barely register them at all*. Weird.





innocentfreak said:


> *I must say I don't notice them. *I rarely pause TV and if I do it is because I am doing something that took my focus off the TV. Off the top of my head that is the one most people complain about that I can remember.
> 
> Oh I remembered they sometimes have something at the bottom of a folder but I couldn't tell you what.
> 
> I am the same type of user though who doesn't use 30 second skip and never have. I just fast forward through everything because occasionally I do see something like a commercial for a new show that www.thefutoncritic.com didn't have on the calender.


Add me to this list. I've never understood the uproar about ads. *They don't interfere with the TV watching experience* (isn't that what a TiVo is for?), and they don't require any workaround to avoid, and who really cares what's listed at the bottom of a folder?



b_scott said:


> I am loyal to the interface and usability of Tivo for as long as they're around.


+infinity.

I love TV, and watch waaay too much of it. TiVo is the drug... er, I mean tool that enables me to feed the habit. That's all it is. A tool.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

miller890 said:


> I am guessing not these guys.
> 
> TiVo big-wigs selling on the decline after the $300M annoucement. Thomas S. Rogers, chief executive of TiVo, sold 300,000 shares for $4.8 million, an average price of $16.10 each on March 11. Still holding 627,825 shares. $2.8 million sale by director Randy Komisar on March 11 and 12. Komisar sold 174,863 shares at an average price of $16.20 each.


Buy low, sell high. Makes sense.


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## wdwms (Jan 10, 2003)

bschuler2007 said:


> As for owning a Tivo. Yes.. I currently own 2 ad sprewing Tivos. Even with all the Tampax and beer ads, I still recommend buying Tivo to friends... but I do alert them to the ads as I can attest, they can get VERY annoying VERY quickly.


No offense, but I had to laugh.. If you want to see a true ad-spewing DVR take a look at the Comcast DVRs.. the Motorola DVR UI was changed about 2 years ago; they actually took out 3 lines of program guide data to fit more ads in, you can only see info for about 4-5 channels at a time, its horrendous. Not to mention if you use the down arrows you have to arrow through the ads to get to the next page.

Seriously the Tivo ads are nothing to whats out there...


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## Polekat (Jul 26, 2002)

So, what happens to our TiVo's *if* TiVo dies?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Polekat said:


> So, what happens to our TiVo's *if* TiVo dies?


We use Moxis


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## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

Polekat said:


> So, what happens to our TiVo's *if* TiVo dies?


If history repeats itself, the "servicing" of these boxes is sold to a third party company who continue to provide guide data until the boxes all die.

Replay TV, which stopped selling hardware in 2005 and sold all patents to DirectTV in 2007 still provides guide data to all units to this very day, 5 years after the last box was ever made.


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## Polekat (Jul 26, 2002)

Just curious since since I had just got back into the TiVo scene a few months ago after a 6 year absence. Went for the lifetime service and was wondering if that was the wrong move.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Polekat said:


> Just curious since since I had just got back into the TiVo scene a few months ago after a 6 year absence. Went for the lifetime service and was wondering if that was the wrong move.


It was with 99.9% certainty the right move.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I would definitely say based off TiVo history lifetime is the right move with the Premiere. With it being a brand new model they probably wont release another new version series until they have to. This doesnt mean we may not see some new versions similar to the series 2 dt but at TiVos pace it wouldnt be until at least 16 months to two years.


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