# [rant] I messed up and now Tivo is ripping me off



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

I'm so mad. A rant might make me feel better.

I messed up and haven't been paying complete attention to my credit card bill (it's huge... a zillion pages of lunches, gas, groceries, utilities, recurring charges... everything I do goes on it). Turns out Tivo has been billing me a monthly charge for the last 11 months.

This is bad, because I deactivated the unit over a year ago when I got my Series3 with lifetime. I told them to forget my free year and to cancel the unit early because I didn't want to risk forgetting about it and getting charged a year later (which is what just happenned).

So, I called Tivo today and they were able to confirm that I called in and asked to have my unit deactivated and that they made a mistake and didn't deactivate the unit like requested.

Now the fun part... they're saying that since it took me so long to catch the problem that they're not responsible. They offered to refund me for 3 months if I closed the case and said that if I escellate I risk losing their "generous" 3 month offer.

I told them to forget it, we're going all or nothing, so it's escallated.

Regardless of my sloppiness/laziness/inattentiveness to keep track of my credit card bill, the plain and simple matter is that they received a cancellation request, they can confirm the request, yet they billed me anyways.

I'm pretty sure this isn't legal and they're giving me the run around.

What can I do about this?

Here's what I've done so far.

1. I contacted Tivo CS (see above). They're supposed to get back to me in a few days when this is escallated.

2. I've contacted my credit card. They said I can submit a list of the 11 charges and they can start a dispute against Tivo.

3. I hear small claims is a good idea if things go south.

4. There's also the BBB.

Any suggestions?

PS. I know I should be paying closer attention to my credit card, but I should be able to count on a company discontinuing services when they say that's what they're going to do.

The unit they're billing me for hasn't even been powered on in at least 2 years. It was used by me only for the lifetime transfer. I don't even have the remote and power cord for the thing.


----------



## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

#1 - good luck with that, don't hold your breath. You have a better chance of one of the Tivo folks here helping you out directly.

#2 - my choice. I'd call the CC company and dispute the payment. 

#3 - only if #1 and #2 don't work

#4 - waste of time


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

jkalnin said:


> #1 - good luck with that, don't hold your breath. You have a better chance of one of the Tivo folks here helping you out directly.
> 
> #2 - my choice. I'd call the CC company and dispute the payment.
> 
> ...


I'm really hoping for #1. I've sent Pony a PM, but I don't know if he's willing to get involved in stuff like this. Save me Pony! You're my best hope! 

#2 is the second best way. CitiBank has a lot of pull and I've found them to be pretty protective of their card members.

Agree on 3, 4.


----------



## telcoman (Dec 27, 2007)

eisenb11 said:


> I'm so mad. A rant might make me feel better.
> 
> I messed up and haven't been paying complete attention to my credit card bill (it's huge... a zillion pages of lunches, gas, groceries, utilities, recurring charges... everything I do goes on it). Turns out Tivo has been billing me a monthly charge for the last 11 months.
> 
> ...


I'm fairly confident that you will prevail with Tivo and your credit card?
Be nice, pleasant but firm.

I too pay everything with a credit card. I have a large envelope where I place charge receipts every evening when getting ready for bed.
Every month when the statement arrives, I match all the receipts with what is on the statement and pay the statement in full.
Get in the habit of checking your statement every month so things like this will no longer occur.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Aye, I should have been more careful.

Hopefully Tivo gets this sorted out, because they wouldn't close the account while this issue is being escallated. They said if the unit were shut off they won't be able to refund anything... so I'm still getting charged for the unit that has no remote or power cord...


----------



## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

What I'd like to know is how did they do this?

They were supposed to give you a year of FREE service. When you say you don't want it, how does that translate into "continue billing"?

*Absolutely* go to the end of the road with this.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

gastrof said:


> They were supposed to give you a year of FREE service. When you say you don't want it, how does that translate into "continue billing"?


He must have gotten his Series 3 with lifetime 23 months ago (1 year + 11 months of billing). After the free year, the service is billed monthly until manually cancelled.
(I have to cancel my remaining enabled S1 in November, after the free year from my TivoHD lifetime transfer runs out.)


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

eisenb11 said:


> They said if the unit were shut off they won't be able to refund anything... so I'm still getting charged for the unit that has no remote or power cord...


Baloney. They can refund you any amount if they want regardless of status of your unit. Here is semi-pro advise for you on how to get your money back.
1. While on phone with TiVo record the conversation and make them say on the phone that they have received the cancellation notice. Not as good as to have it in writing, but I'm willing to bet they would not send you written statement admitting that you asked for the cancellation.
2. Call your credit card and contest the charges. Explain what happened and tell them that you have a recording of TiVo admitting that you cancelled the service.
3. (Optional). You may want to follow up with the letter to your bank, re-stating what you told them on the phone.
4. Seat back and relax. Your credit card company will take care of everything.
They will issue the chargeback and TiVo will have to prove that charges are legit.
Going to small claims is overkill because it will be bumped to regular court and you will have lose too much time for an amount in dispute.
BBB is a joke. All they care is a payment from businesses for the badge. They have no power nor are they going to do anything besides sending the letter to TiVo and you asking politely to settle your dispute.


----------



## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

samo said:


> Baloney. They can refund you any amount if they want regardless of status of your unit. Here is semi-pro advise for you on how to get your money back.
> 1. While on phone with TiVo record the conversation and make them say on the phone that they have received the cancellation notice. Not as good as to have it in writing, but I'm willing to bet they would not send you written statement admitting that you asked for the cancellation.
> 2. Call your credit card and contest the charges. Explain what happened and tell them that you have a recording of TiVo admitting that you cancelled the service.
> 3. (Optional). You may want to follow up with the letter to your bank, re-stating what you told them on the phone.
> ...


Win!!! May I also suggest http://www.daveramsey.com/


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

gastrof said:


> What I'd like to know is how did they do this?
> 
> They were supposed to give you a year of FREE service. When you say you don't want it, how does that translate into "continue billing"?
> 
> *Absolutely* go to the end of the road with this.


Mattack's explaination of what happened is very close.

I got my S3 the week it came out, 1 year and 11 months ago.

In order to transfer my lifetime from the S1, Tivo required that I put 1 FREE year on the S3. During the first 3 months of ownership, Tivo would switch the lifetime and free year so that I would end up with a S3 with lifetime and a S1 with free year. They required that I put a credit card on file for when the free year ran out.

I waited for about 3 months for the lifetime/free year transfer to take place. Once the transfer had occurred I called Tivo and told them to cancel the remaining of my free year on the S1. They gave me some grief about wasting my free year but I told them I wasn't using the S1 anyways and wanted it cancelled so I wouldn't forget about in 9 months and have my credit card charged.

There is a note in their CS system that I asked for my S1 to be cancelled.

9 months later, my free year ran out and they started charging my credit card.

I do everything on my credit card (the statement's are many pages long) which makes it hard to notice something small like Tivo's $13 charge. I do scan my statements every month, so I must have had a dyslexic moment of something and mentally replaced "Tivo" with "AIT" or "SOE" or "ADT" or something, I didn't notice it until this month.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

samo said:


> Baloney. They can refund you any amount if they want regardless of status of your unit. Here is semi-pro advise for you on how to get your money back.
> 1. While on phone with TiVo record the conversation and make them say on the phone that they have received the cancellation notice. Not as good as to have it in writing, but I'm willing to bet they would not send you written statement admitting that you asked for the cancellation.
> 2. Call your credit card and contest the charges. Explain what happened and tell them that you have a recording of TiVo admitting that you cancelled the service.
> 3. (Optional). You may want to follow up with the letter to your bank, re-stating what you told them on the phone.
> ...


Thanks for the pointers.

Wonder how I can make the recording... can an iPhone record convos?

I did call my CC, and they said to try to work it out with Tivo first, but that if Tivo didn't want to play nice that they could try disputing the thing.

What a mess... I was so mad when they essentially said "Oops we messed up and should have stopped billing you, but you didn't notice until now so we'll only credit you back for 3 months of being overcharged".

Ack!


----------



## treaty (Mar 1, 2006)

samo said:


> BBB is a joke. All they care is a payment from businesses for the badge. They have no power nor are they going to do anything besides sending the letter to TiVo and you asking politely to settle your dispute.


BBB is not a joke. I'd hope that Tivo Customer service was able to work this out with you on their own... give them a chance, but if they won't accommodate you, definitely contact the BBB AND write a letter to the attorney general for your state as well. I've done this in the past in a similar circumstance with Sprint wireless - and I can say for sure that Sprint NEVER would have refunded me if they hadn't gotten threatening letters on my behalf from both the BBB and the attorney general for the state of WA.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Aye, either way, it'll only take me 10-15 minutes to throw together something for the BBB. It can't hurt. Might as well send a copy to the attorney general and chamber of commerce as well.

Hopefully, CS will be able to work this out. First rung CS didn't work so it's being elevated. Hopefully level 2 will get things done. No idea when they'll call so I'll give them until next Friday before going on the war path.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

TiVo is not the only co playing this game, talk to people who tried to cancel their AOL service..that went to court by some state Att. general. For TiVo its a % game giving out the year free service (that turns out many people don't cancel) unfortunately you did agree to this in the T&C of your Lifetime Xfer. I know when you paid your layer $500 to read over the TiVo T&C he must of missed that part.


----------



## StanSimmons (Jun 10, 2000)

treaty said:


> BBB is not a joke. I'd hope that Tivo Customer service was able to work this out with you on their own... give them a chance, but if they won't accommodate you, definitely contact the BBB AND write a letter to the attorney general for your state as well. I've done this in the past in a similar circumstance with Sprint wireless - and I can say for sure that Sprint NEVER would have refunded me if they hadn't gotten threatening letters on my behalf from both the BBB and the attorney general for the state of WA.


BBB is a joke, the letter from the Attorney General is what got Sprints attention.


----------



## saramj (Feb 3, 2005)

samo said:


> While on phone with TiVo record the conversation . . .


Is it not illegal if you record a phone conversation and not tell the person they are being recorded without a court order? I would seek legal advice before you record anything that you would want to use as evidence.


----------



## jjberger2134 (Nov 20, 2002)

I may be wrong here (for your particular case), but most credit card companies allow you to dispute a charge for some fixed period of time after you receive your statement, usually 60 or 90 days. Therefore, any charges beyond 4 months may be a non-starter from the Credit Card companies point of view.

I am looking at the back of my Citibank Credit card statement, and the section titled Billing Rights Summary, In Case of Errors or Questions about your bill, it says:
_"We must hear from you no later than 60 days after we send you the first bill on which the error or problem appeared"._

What is the total amount of charges in dispute? I am guess around $142 ($12.95 *11). You will most likely get about $40 back (what TiVo already offered), so for $100 it is an inexpensive lesson learned - to check your credit card statement.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

lessd said:


> TiVo is not the only co playing this game, talk to people who tried to cancel their AOL service..that went to court by some state Att. general. For TiVo its a % game giving out the year free service (that turns out many people don't cancel) unfortunately you did agree to this in the T&C of your Lifetime Xfer. I know when you paid your layer $500 to read over the TiVo T&C he must of missed that part.


The problem is that I didn't get the free service and forget about it. I got the free service, told them to cancel it, they said they would, then forgot about it.


----------



## Grey Griffin (May 24, 2007)

It's not illegal to record a conversation without telling the other person. A recorded conversation may give you some leverage when you are trying to work things out directly between you and a company. However, most legal proceedings won't allow recorded conversations as evidence unless both parties gave consent or there was a court order involved.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

jjberger2134 said:


> What is the total amount of charges in dispute? I am guess around $142 ($12.95 *11). You will most likely get about $40 back (what TiVo already offered), so for $100 it is an inexpensive lesson learned - to check your credit card statement.


While this may be the case, if Tivo were resonable they would refund the whole charge.

They've been charging me for 11 months for nothing. I don't use the service they're charging me for - in fact, I can't because my S1 lacks the equipment to power up and be controlled.

They should, in good faith, return my money. Not because they have to, but because it's right.

Ripping off your customers is no way to run a business. Tivo is about selling access to the best DVR out there, not getting a few bucks by scamming their customers.

I love Tivo's products, but if this is how they treat customers, then the company has truly fallen.

What gets me is that they have acknowledged their mistake... they have a record in the CS system of my call to terminate service. They're just playing games and I'm not going to get them get away with it.


----------



## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> TiVo is not the only co playing this game, talk to people who tried to cancel their AOL service..that went to court by some state Att. general. For TiVo its a % game giving out the year free service (that turns out many people don't cancel) unfortunately you did agree to this in the T&C of your Lifetime Xfer. I know when you paid your layer $500 to read over the TiVo T&C he must of missed that part.


Don't know if you're saying this to the OP or someone else, but the facts are the OP was in the middle of a FREE YEAR and told them to cut off service to that machine.

TiVo lost NOTHING, and agreed to shut off service.

They didn't do it.

Several months later, when the free year was up, they began billing for service on a machine they'd agreed to "disconnect"...

A machine they'd been told to DISCONNECT several months earlier and had agreed to.

It's fraud. Makes no difference if some CSR just plain goofed. Charging something to someone's credit card for a service they've said they don't want any more is FRAUD.

Worse, since they'd been told to stop the service months earlier and there hadn't BEEN any billing for a year, this means TiVo actually BEGAN charging the card for the service...

Service they'd already been told "I don't want".


----------



## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Grey Griffin said:


> It's not illegal to record a conversation without telling the other person...


Might want to double check that. In the past, that's not always been the case, and in some places you HAD to tell the other party. The law would vary from one state to another.

Has that changed nation-wide?


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

gastrof said:


> Don't know if you're saying this to the OP or someone else, but the facts are the OP was in the middle of a FREE YEAR and told them to cut off service to that machine.
> 
> TiVo lost NOTHING, and agreed to shut off service.
> 
> ...


Well said, this is exactly what happenned. It's pretty crazy! lol


----------



## Grey Griffin (May 24, 2007)

I'm very sure that it is not illegal to record the conversation. I worked in insurance claims for over 10 years, we had to advise a customer if we (the company) were making recordings. Customers also would record conversations and never tell us. The legal department researched it and there is no law against a private citizen recording a phone conversation.

What could be illegal is what you try to use that recording for later but not making the recording itself. Again, the courts usually won't allow recordings except under certain conditions, but there is a difference between something being inadmissable and being illegal.


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

eisenb11 said:


> Thanks for the pointers.
> 
> Wonder how I can make the recording... can an iPhone record convos?
> 
> (


I use this device http://www.diguniverse.com/TELECOM/TELEPHONE-SYSTEM-ADD-ONS/TR-70.html
As for legality of recording conversation, I don't know laws of other states, but in Colorado only one party in conversation has to know that recording takes place (you can not record somebody else's conversation if you are not part of it)


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

I would think a nice, friendly "this call may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance" when the rep comes on the line next time ought to suffice for notification.


----------



## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

samo said:


> As for legality of recording conversation, I don't know laws of other states, but in Colorado only one party in conversation has to know that recording takes place (you can not record somebody else's conversation if you are not part of it)


That is exactly what I was told here in NY. At least one party must be aware. You can record your own conversations (you are the aware party), but you can NOT use recording devices to monitor conversations you are not part of without notification (or a warrant).

Interestingly enough, video surveillance is much less restrictive. I have video surveillance camera's all around my property. They can record to my hearts content. Technically, I'm not allowed to mic 'em and record the audio.


----------



## jjberger2134 (Nov 20, 2002)

eisenb11 said:


> While this may be the case, if Tivo were resonable they would refund the whole charge.





> They should, in good faith, return my money. Not because they have to, but because it's right.


I agree with you, you are getting screwed by TiVo. However, I was just trying to point out that Citibank will most likely not help you to the extent that you need help based on the Terms and Conditions of their credit cards.

As far as TiVo goes, yes they should recognize their error (which they have done) and fix the error (which they have not done, yet). However, I was also trying to point out that you have some responsibility here too, since it took you almost a year to recognize the error. What if it took you 2, 3, or 4 years to realize the charges on the card? At what point does the responsibility of charges on your card become your fault for not realizing what happened.

Again, in this case, my opinion is TiVo should help you here.


----------



## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

Okay, here is the info -

Federal law allows recording of phone calls and other electronic communications with the consent of at least one party to the call. A majority of the states and territories have adopted wiretapping statutes based on the federal law, although most also have extended the law to cover in-person conversations. Thirty-eight states and the District of Columbia permit individuals to record conversations to which they are a party without informing the other parties that they are doing so. These laws are referred to as "one-party consent" statutes, and as long as you are a party to the conversation, it is legal for you to record it. (Nevada also has a one-party consent statute, but the state Supreme Court has interpreted it as an all-party rule.)

Twelve states require, under most circumstances, the consent of all parties to a conversation. Those jurisdictions are California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington. Be aware that you will sometimes hear these referred to inaccurately as "two-party consent" laws. If there are more than two people involved in the conversation, all must consent to the taping.

Regardless of the state, it is almost always illegal to record a conversation to which you are not a party, do not have consent to tape, and could not naturally overhear.

This, and more state by state info, available here -
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/

Hope that helps.

Jim H.


----------



## jim_h (May 6, 2008)

I don't understand this "work it out with Tivo" stuff. They billed you in error and they owe you that money. The only point of negotiation might be whether they owe you interest on it, and at what rate.

I don't agree that you had any responsibility to catch this error. It would have been nice if you had, but that's it. Tivo is trying to play this like an auto accident where both parties accept some degree of fault and settle, even if the truth is that one driver simply ran a red light.

They probably made this mistake on a whole bunch of accounts and are hoping to minimize their losses by pressuring these (former) customers to settle for a reduced amount to avoid a hassle.


----------



## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

jjberger2134 said:


> ...What if it took you 2, 3, or 4 years to realize the charges on the card? At what point does the responsibility of charges on your card become your fault for not realizing what happened...


Never.

TiVo had no authority to bill ANYTHING to that card. They did so nonetheless.

That's ILLEGAL.

Don't try to blame the victim.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

I suggest you send TiVo a letter (certified mail) explaining the situation, what you were told, when, and by whom and demanding a refund of your payments (with interest). Then, if the situation isn't promptly resolved, file a small claims suit.

This is a civil matter unless you can prove intentional fraud which I don't believe you can.


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

RoyK said:


> I suggest you send TiVo a letter (certified mail) explaining the situation, what you were told, when, and by whom and demanding a refund of your payments (with interest). Then, if the situation isn't promptly resolved, file a small claims suit.
> 
> This is a civil matter unless you can prove intentional fraud which I don't believe you can.


I would reserve small claims for the last resort. Credit Card company will issue chargeback just based on your claim. TiVo will have to explain to the bank (in writing) why they charged the credit card in a first place. Consumer will receive this reply to comment on and to provide more information if needed. Unless Tivo are plane crooks, they would not make a false statements that customer never cancelled the service. But if they do, tape of the conversation will become handy. It may be not admissible in a court, but will be sufficient for the bank.


----------



## seanembry (Aug 3, 2008)

eisenb11 said:


> I'm so mad. A rant might make me feel better.
> 
> I messed up and haven't been paying complete attention to my credit card bill (it's huge... a zillion pages of lunches, gas, groceries, utilities, recurring charges... everything I do goes on it). Turns out Tivo has been billing me a monthly charge for the last 11 months.
> 
> ...


The key here is that Tivo admitted to accepting the cancel, then not honoring it. In law enforcement circles, this is called "Wire Fraud".

Check with your state Attorny General's consumer protection unit. In general, when things like this happen, it's an indication that two people crusked up at the same time. You, for not policing your credit card bills better, and Tivo for not doing as they said they would.

Were I you, I'd simply drop the matter past reporting it to the BBB and the State AG. And I'd make time to review the charges on my credit card every month.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I have a pile of comments-

fraud on tivo's part- I think not- a stupid error from incompetence- yes. 

Illegal- don't think so- immoral- probably. But there's plenty of immoral things people and businesses do that aren't illegal.

Legally the OP probably only has rights to dispute the 3-4 last charges with the card company per the terms- which might be enforced by visa and mastercard not the member banks. The merchant has to have some reasonable assurance that they aren't going to get harassed with charge-backs years down the road. I assume the MC and Visa rules stipulate the 3 month thing for all parties. (could be wrong but that's what i suspect). For those that aren't vendors- chargebacks can play major havoc on a business- so i seem to recall there is a timeframe that is written in stone.

I wouldn't bash the OP or blame the victim- but even they achowledge they should have paid more attention to the bills. The front line CSR probably only has the abiluty to refund 3 months and I'm not sure i would give front line outsourced CSR's the abiliuty to do any more than that myself. So now since it went on so long some other system needs to be used to correct it. So if it takes more then one phone call to fix I dont blame tivo. 

All that said- i think it's very likely that when someone with a brain and authority at tivo catches this- they will fix it right up and there will be no need to go to the credit card, small claims court, or the BBB.

Also- not sure why so many dissing the BBB. For some mom and pop I think it could be a waste but for a large company it can frequently get results. I had problems with IBM/Lenovo once- it wasn't even a loss of money sort of thing- just they were treating a group of customers like crap. I complained through the bbb website and a day or 2 later some vp of sucking up called me and offered me some significantly valued accessories to go along with an apology and a fix to the poor treatment to resolve the situation. Can't say if tivo would act the same, but i do think larger public company's do care about what bbb says.

So if it got that far- the BBB is a simpler way I think than credit card or court- at worst it only takes a few days to see if that ges things fixed. In fact- quick search at bbb site shows 130+ complaints about tivo in the past year and quick glance looks like only 2 unresolved- all the rest were resolved or the bbb decided that tivo made a reasonable effort to resolve the complaint.- so *****ing to the bbb would appear to be a much cheaper and simpler way to resolve things.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Thanks for the updates.

I sent an email to their PR department this morning. I'm going to give them a little bit (till Friday) before I start pursuing outside influences.

As for taping of the call, it appears that I'm in one of the states listed where all parties must have consent - California. I'm pretty sure CS is trained to hang up they're being told a call will be taped, but I could be wrong on that matter.

I also sent a PM to Pony on Friday, but I haven't heard back from him yet. Too bad there's no way to get ahold of Tivo Shannon!


----------



## ThreeSoFar'sBro (Oct 10, 2004)

People should be careful telling others on this board that things are or are not illegal. IANAL, but I did find the following:

_Cal. Penal Code §§ 631, 632: It is a crime in California to intercept or eavesdrop upon any confidential communication, including a telephone call or wire communication, without the consent of all parties.

It is also a crime to disclose information obtained from such an interception. A first offense is punishable by a fine of up to $2,500 and imprisonment for no more than one year. Subsequent offenses carry a maximum fine of $10,000 and jail sentence of up to one year._

I have also heard on this board, a way of saying you're recording is to joke about "this call may be recorded." Search on this board to find the link on how to do this.

I, too, am a victim of this EXACT scenario. I was told by a CSR that they'd delete the charges, and stop charging. They still are. I feel I'm in for a long fight on this one.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

IANL either-

but I'm not so sure that billing errors count as wire fraud either.


----------



## jim_h (May 6, 2008)

If merchants weren't liable for the full amount of erroneous charges like this, an unethical merchant could simply never honor the first request to cancel a monthly charge. He'd know that if the customer didn't catch the error, and a year went by, he could keep 2/3 of the money.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ThreeSoFar'sBro said:


> ...
> 
> I, too, am a victim of this EXACT scenario. I was told by a CSR that they'd delete the charges, and stop charging. They still are. I feel I'm in for a long fight on this one.


I believe if you let your credit card company know that a particular monthly charge is no longer authorized they will deny it when tivo tries again.

Also- per above- maybe the BBB is a good idea of how to escalate with minimal effort. Seems tivo responds to the BBB almost all the time- and I think the bbb rules require a response pretty soon- like a couple days. You can complain right on their website.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

ThreeSoFar'sBro said:


> I, too, am a victim of this EXACT scenario. I was told by a CSR that they'd delete the charges, and stop charging. They still are. I feel I'm in for a long fight on this one.


Oh boy, that's not was I was hoping to hear. I was really hoping to avoid a battle.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> I believe if you let your credit card company know that a particular monthly charge is no longer authorized they will deny it when tivo tries again.


I asked my CC about that and they said it can't be done. They said a charge can be contested once it's on there, but there's no way to block a charge that may happen in the future.

My credit card that is on file with Tivo expired in march yet they've been able to keep charging it.

The CC said that even if I were to cancel my card and get a new one with a new number reissued that, companies like Tivo subscribe to some kind of update service where they'll be provided my new credit card number!

Apparently companies that do recurring charges have a pretty good system set up for them.

It's amazing how hard it is to get out of this mess.


----------



## Lajonesin (Oct 6, 2003)

I had the same experience with an internet provider refusing to refund months of charges for service I had cancelled. They initially told me the same thing about not letting them know in time to receive a refund, etc. They count on people giving up or blaming themselves when it's actually flat out stealing! I went online to the BBB, typed out a quick complaint and waited. I was sent a letter from the provider saying it wasn't their fault but they would go ahead and give me back MY money anyway in response to my BBB complaint. At the very least it's proof to your CC that you tried to get relief on your own. Shame on TIVO! I thought better of them.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

eisenb11 said:


> The CC said that even if I were to cancel my card and get a new one with a new number reissued that, companies like Tivo subscribe to some kind of update service where they'll be provided my new credit card number!
> 
> Apparently companies that do recurring charges have a pretty good system set up for them.


That's crazy.
I wonder if cancelling that card altogether and then getting another from a different issuer (e.g. cancel the Mastercard and get a Visa) would break that cycle.

Sure, it would be a hassle to move your automatic billing stuff from the old card to the new card, but at least Tivo could be kept out of the loop.


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

If a Forum TiVo rep. posted here and then resolved this case expeditiously after verifying the facts it would be a perfect example, worth far more than the dollar value involved, of how TiVo cares about rectifying slip-ups.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

fallingwater said:


> If a Forum TiVo rep. posted here and then resolved this case expeditiously after verifying the facts it would be a perfect example, worth far more than the dollar value involved, of how TiVo cares about rectifying slip-ups.


Granted the TiVo reps have done well in resolving these kinds of issues. Both from a sense of fairness on the part of the rep and as a form of damage control.

However it TiVo really cared about rectifying slip-ups they would have a reasonable mechanism for doing so aside from responding to rants on a non TiVo sponsored internet forum. And they would have another mechanism in place to prevent such things in the first place.

For example recently I canceled one insurance policy after getting another with a different company. No fuss, no muss. I called in, got the billing people, they did the cancellation, stopped the automatic billing from my checking account and confirmed the transaction all in about 5 minutes. Two days later I got a letter confirming the cancellation in writing.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

People need to be careful with terms "illegal" and "fraud" when they don't know what they are talking about.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

steve614 said:


> That's crazy.
> I wonder if cancelling that card altogether and then getting another from a different issuer (e.g. cancel the Mastercard and get a Visa) would break that cycle.
> 
> Sure, it would be a hassle to move your automatic billing stuff from the old card to the new card, but at least Tivo could be kept out of the loop.


That would likely work. From what I understand the subscription updates were meant to take care of change of addresses, renewed expirations, lost cards that were replaced, etc. Basically, changes within the context of the original CC company.

That's a lot of trouble though. My CC historically has done a good job protecting me from potentially fraudulent activity, so I don't want to let them go. I've also been using them for a long time so having this card is good for my credit history


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> People need to be careful with terms "illegal" and "fraud" when they don't know what they are talking about.


I'm not sure if this is fraudulent, since they didn't intentionally go out to deceive (I'm sure the original CSR who was supposed to cancel messed up)... and until Friday I wouldn't even consider it illegal since it was probably an honest mistake.

As of Friday, however, I would consider this illegal as their mistake has been made known to them and yet refused to continue to fully fix it.

IANAL, but the term "unjust enrichment" comes to mind...

EDIT: It's too early in the morning and I'm not thinking clearly... I take the above back... how can someone accidentlaly not-cancel an account? If they truly did ignore my cancellation request then this is both illegal and fraud. If it was an accident, then what I wrote above applies.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

eisenb11 said:


> I'm not sure if this is fraudulent, since they didn't intentionally go out to deceive (I'm sure the original CSR who was supposed to cancel messed up)... and until Friday I wouldn't even consider it illegal since it was probably an honest mistake.
> 
> As of Friday, however, I would consider this illegal as their mistake has been made known to them and yet refused to continue to fully fix it.
> 
> ...


Human error. A mistake.

"How can someone not see a charge on their credit card for a year?"

Again human error. A mistake.

Tivo made a mistake. So did you.

Good customer service may dictate that they reverse all of the charges, but I believe there is a statute of limitations issue with regard to the charges on your credit card.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> Human error. A mistake.
> 
> "How can someone not see a charge on their credit card for a year?"
> 
> ...


That would be a statement of limitations, which is a credit card policy for getting the CC to fight battles on your behalf. My CC said this may not be an issue.

Even if it were applied, the statement is only between me and the CC. Tivo is still liable for what they did. There probably is a statute of limitations for what Tivo did, but I'm sure that it'll be at least 1 year.

Either way, this all should be a non-issue. Tivo should just fess up to the mistake and refund the money - no fighting needed.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

eisenb11 said:


> That would likely work. From what I understand the subscription updates were meant to take care of change of addresses, renewed expirations, lost cards that were replaced, etc. Basically, changes within the context of the original CC company.
> 
> That's a lot of trouble though. My CC historically has done a good job protecting me from potentially fraudulent activity, so I don't want to let them go. I've also been using them for a long time so having this card is good for my credit history


my one Visa card expired and I got a new one from same place but different number. TiVo had no idea and I had to tell them. I highly doubt they would follow a change in your card number.

first line CSr is outsourced so you did the right thing in escalating it so an actual TiVo employee can look at it - thing is, that group is smaller and may take two weeks until your case is read by them due to simple backlog.

I read plenty of other threads of people upset bcasue the CSRs told them they could not cancel the free year upfront and they had to call back at the year mark to cancel. Sounds like your kind of case is not new to TiVo. I do not think this is fraud or an oversight of the cancellation. I think it is simply a really bad billing system that is severly limited and poor process management in the CSR group being used. I think Tivo has since moved on from using that group/


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I read plenty of other threads of people upset bcasue the CSRs told them they could not cancel the free year upfront and they had to call back at the year mark to cancel.


Aye, from what I understand you couldn't cancel immediately, but actually had to wait a few months.

From what I understand, the free year part of the lifetime transfer package was partly needed in order to do the transfer. Apparently, it takes Tivo up to 3 months to transfer service from the old unit to the new unit. In that sense, the 1 year policity got the new unit up and running while awaiting the lifetime transfer.

It did take quite a while for my lifetime to transfer, I checked for the first few weeks, saw nothing, then checked again about 3 months in.

The reason they were supposed to cancel my service was because I had waited until after the transfer ocurred before requesting deactivation. At that point, my Series 3 was registered as a "lifetime" unit so I had no more use for a second policy.


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I read plenty of other threads of people upset bcasue the CSRs told them they could not cancel the free year upfront and they had to call back at the year mark to cancel.


It would take approx. 60 days for Lifetime Service to be transferred to the hi-def DVR, probably because a customer could cancel the whole deal within the first 30 days. As soon as Lifetime transferred the 1 year free service on the old TiVo could be cancelled.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

fallingwater said:


> It would take approx. 60 days for Lifetime Service to be transferred to the hi-def DVR, probably because a customer could cancel the whole deal within the first 30 days. As soon as Lifetime transferred the 1 year free service on the old TiVo could be cancelled.


TiVo told me the same thing and that if i called after the first bill the 30 days applies and i could than cancel and receive my payment back, I did call within that 30 day period and they did cancel and refund the one payment. I admit that at the time I thought many people would caught up in this thing that why i don't generally take free offers with auto charges at the end IF you don't cancel, as i think its a low end type of marketing ploy. TiVo should have E-Mailed each person with an op in if you wanted to continue the service.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

eisenb11 said:


> I asked my CC about that and they said it can't be done. They said a charge can be contested once it's on there, but there's no way to block a charge that may happen in the future.
> 
> My credit card that is on file with Tivo expired in march yet they've been able to keep charging it.
> 
> ...


What a pain-

I have a business card from advanta. The morons let some thief use my account to make 36 identical 100 dollar charges in Houston while I was sitting in my office in NJ. After they eventually figured out to lock down my account they let none of my recurring charges (cell phone, toll pass, cable broadband, hosted exchange, etc.) go through and I was forced to call everyone and update to my new card number.

I wish they would have just auto updated all that .

I guess it depends on the card provider?


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

eisenb11 said:


> That would be a statement of limitations, which is a credit card policy for getting the CC to fight battles on your behalf. My CC said this may not be an issue.
> 
> Even if it were applied, the statement is only between me and the CC. Tivo is still liable for what they did. There probably is a statute of limitations for what Tivo did, but I'm sure that it'll be at least 1 year.
> 
> Either way, this all should be a non-issue. Tivo should just fess up to the mistake and refund the money - no fighting needed.


actually I think the 90 day think comes from the federal trade commision-

while trying to search for some help for you I noticed they have a website that talks about it. But it didn't really have info about what happens if you notice that a year went on so I'm not sure how it would apply.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

RoyK said:


> Granted the TiVo reps have done well in resolving these kinds of issues. Both from a sense of fairness on the part of the rep and as a form of damage control.
> 
> However it TiVo really cared about rectifying slip-ups they would have a reasonable mechanism for doing so aside from responding to rants on a non TiVo sponsored internet forum. ....


for all we know the outsourced CSR escalating it to a tivo employee who is supposed to call back is just that reasonable mechanism. I dont think it's unreasonable to limit what the outsourced CSR's are permitted to do- and then having them excalate things outside whatever that limit is to a tivo employee. Personally I'd rather (and I think many would agree) there was no such thing as outsourced CSR's but that doesn't seem to be the real world for most enterprises in this day and age....

We'll have to see if they actually follow through. But at this point it's tough to tell if that's the normal way things work (the csr escalating) or if the internet rant or the call to the credit card, etc, etc was the real reason it gets resolved.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Aye, we'll have to wait a bit and see how this'll turn out.

It'll probably be a few business days before I get a call-back.

Right now, I'm unhappy, but it's true that the first level CSR can only do so much. It's the next level of CSR, when they return my call, who will determine my opinion of Tivo (or a Tivo online rep if they get to this first).


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Update: I just received a call from someone at advanced customer service.

He said he got my email, so I'm assuming they either got my PMs sent here or the email I sent to their PR department.

Sounds like they're going to resolve my billing issue. Should hear back from them in 1-3 days he said.

I'll keep you all posted as I learn more.

My confidence (and satisfaction) with Tivo is rising again!

Will keep you all posted...


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Bah, got another update.

Talked to the highest level of Tivo CSR again and they made their final offer. Apparently policy is to do up to 3 months, but they'll do 5.

Might as well do it, but Tivo basically just ripped me out of 6 x 13 = $78.00.

So, my conclusion: unhappy with Tivo again.

Let that be a lessoned learned people, pay attention to your credit card bill because you're responsible for everything - even if the other party messes up.

Guess this will be a case of "Love the product, hate the company".


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

eisenb11 said:


> Bah, got another update.
> 
> Talked to the highest level of Tivo CSR again and they made their final offer. Apparently policy is to do up to 3 months, but they'll do 5.
> 
> ...


I think that is fair. After all, you should have some personal responsibility to monitor your credit card statements. They should be responsible to make sure it was adequately cancelled.

It was human error all around, and 5 months is probably a fair compromise (while six would be better).


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Sometimes I wonder if this stuff is intentional.

Imagine this:

1) start a subscription service
2) don't cancel when asked and hope the person doesn't notice
3) eventually when they do refund up to 3 months only
4) profit

Hmmm, I think I'm onto something... brb I need to start a company real fast...


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

eisenb11 said:


> Sometimes I wonder if this stuff is intentional.
> 
> Imagine this:
> 
> ...


my opinion (so take it for what it's worth)-

most of the evil people in the world are really too stupid to think that far in advance. I think much of the world is just stocked by incompetent people and you unfortunately stumbled on one. (the person who didn't press the correct buttons to cancel you or the boob that set the system up so it doesnt work).

it's the peter principle in action.

politics aside- look at the people that we have as elected officials- in theory these are the best and brightest we have- yet plenty are still overtly stupid or at least make many bad choices in governing our country and the crook ones of them are thankfully so stupid they get caught doing stupid things.


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

eisenb11 said:


> Bah, got another update.
> 
> Talked to the highest level of Tivo CSR again and they made their final offer. Apparently policy is to do up to 3 months, but they'll do 5.
> 
> ...


You got them! Assuming that they didn't lie, if they refund you 5 months of service you have their admission that they charged you after sub was cancelled. All you have to do is call your credit card company to get the rest.


----------



## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

eisenb11 said:


> Sometimes I wonder if this stuff is intentional.
> 
> Imagine this:
> 
> ...


There are companies like that. My ex wife accidentally signed up for one several years ago (a vacation discount thing) when she bought something online. On month 2 of the odd charge on my credit card I called the credit card company to find out what the charge was. The credit card company gave me the number to call and cancel the service and told me to call them back after I had canceled the service so they could put a note on the account saying it had been canceled. Apparently this company very frequently lost all record of cancellation requests. Nothing went on my bill after that so I have no idea if the company kept trying to charge me, but the phone rep at the credit card company sure sounded like he expected them too.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

samo said:


> You got them! Assuming that they didn't lie, if they refund you 5 months of service you have their admission that they charged you after sub was cancelled. All you have to do is call your credit card company to get the rest.


Unfortuantely, I talked with my CC a bit more and it sounds like things may get really complicated to go beyond 4 months.

Tivo's got me trapped in a corner at the moment.

I want to see what happens with the supposed 5 month refund before I decide what my next move will be.

Should see the conclusion of that part within a week or two.

I still want my remaining 6 months, will need to evaluate options.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

segaily said:


> There are companies like that.


From what I understand, AOL was pretty well known for this kind of thing, no?


----------



## jjberger2134 (Nov 20, 2002)

eisenb11 said:


> Unfortuantely, I talked with my CC a bit more and it sounds like things may get really complicated to go beyond 4 months.
> 
> Tivo's got me trapped in a corner at the moment.
> 
> ...


If you talk to the higher level customer service rep again, see if they can "date" the months that you are receiving a refund. I would suggest seeing if they can refund you the oldest 5 months, that way you can try with your credit card company for the newest 2-3 months, making your refund 7-8 months. Then you only lose a few months overall.


----------



## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

eisenb11 said:


> From what I understand, AOL was pretty well known for this kind of thing, no?


I had an AOL cancellation letter in hand and it still took 3 reps to credit it off my credit card and to stop the billings.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

jjberger2134 said:


> If you talk to the higher level customer service rep again, see if they can "date" the months that you are receiving a refund. I would suggest seeing if they can refund you the oldest 5 months, that way you can try with your credit card company for the newest 2-3 months, making your refund 7-8 months. Then you only lose a few months overall.


Hmm, not a bad idea


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jjberger2134 said:


> If you talk to the higher level customer service rep again, see if they can "date" the months that you are receiving a refund. I would suggest seeing if they can refund you the oldest 5 months, that way you can try with your credit card company for the newest 2-3 months, making your refund 7-8 months. Then you only lose a few months overall.


I think the problem is exactly the age of the older transactions and how they are probably already rolled up into financial reporting ala Sarbanes-Oxley. If it was easy to give you credit on the older months TiVo would probably give you a fuller credit.


----------



## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think the problem is exactly the age of the older transactions and how they are probably already rolled up into financial reporting ala Sarbanes-Oxley. If it was easy to give you credit on the older months TiVo would probably give you a fuller credit.


nah. All corps have "cushion" in their balance sheets to take care of items like this where they have to reverse some prior quarter/year items. But in this case, the dollar amounts are immaterial to warrant a balance sheet transaction.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i do think that's part of it honestly-

I'm sure tivo has a budget line item something like "refunds to make people happy" and it comes out of there instead of them going back and changing revenue numbers for previous finiancial periods.

But there does need to be some point where everyone involved in a credit card transaction things there is no longer any potential for change and I think that's were the 3-4 months thing comes from in the visa/mastercard rules and the FTC regulations/laws.


If 11 months is OK to go back. Is 2 years? Is 3 years? At some point a line needs to get drawn. It's obviously been drawn at 3 (or 4) months. But tivo took money from another account to make the sub happy.

I think if the OP had said "no 5 months is not enough' then they might have been able to get more. At this point it's like a defacto agreement has been reached it's not likely that the parties involved are going to think it's reasonable to reopen the issue to give him/her even more. I dont think the Credit card, tivo, the BBB, or even a court is going to think at this point that asking for more is 'reasonable'.


----------



## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think the problem is exactly the age of the older transactions and how they are probably already rolled up into financial reporting ala Sarbanes-Oxley. If it was easy to give you credit on the older months TiVo would probably give you a fuller credit.


I used to work in the credit dept of a major retail chain. My take on this is that the normal system procedures and security protocols intended to thwart abuse accounts for a lot of the reasons why certain things that seem obvious to the customer for all intensive purposes could not be done. For example I was only authorized to credit 2 late charges but could have my supervisor remove up to 4 in accordance with certain account rehabilitation program guidelines. I'm not even sure a department manager had authority to remove more than 4. And if memory serves I don't believe even the manager could re-age the accounts beyond 6 months.

That said, there was 1 guy in the whole place who had override authority and could pretty much do anything he wanted. This single last ditch option was for that "just in case" situation, like being ordered by a court to clean up an account such as in identity fraud. I think he handled the not much talked about celebrity accounts as well.  Only a handful of workers, including supervisors, even knew this guy existed on site.

I came across these types of billing issues because for example some customers were being billed for insurance they never ordered and had been out of the country (we had a lot of active duty servicemen as customers) ever since they paid their account off in full. There are other variations, such as $2 in finance charges compounding to several $hundred and sometimes over $1,000. I made it a point to clean up these accounts as I came across them (my above and beyond effort, as other workers would just ignore these accounts) and regain customer trust. Upper management wasn't too pleased because it looked on paper like we were giving away the store one credited fee at a time.

After I left for a better job elsewhere my former coworkers said they too were ready to jump ship as management was going nuts trying to figure out why they were now losing more money and now more customers as well and were blaming about everybody for the poor results.

In the end rather than address the problems directly they found it easier to buy another company and basically let it try to collect every dollar billed. If I heard right that resulted in a little more of the money collected but even less return customers. As a result they started selling off some of their accounts receivables.

So having thoroughly clouded my point I'm sure, there are legitimate security reasons to limit what workers can generally credit off of accounts and have reaged. OTOH there is a cost to a generally inflexible account resolution mentality that companies weigh to protect the best bang for the buck for them with the least amount of fallout. Providing good customer service DOES cost money, but so does poor customer service.


----------



## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

segaily said:


> There are companies like that.


Chemlawn, from what I have read.


----------



## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> I think if the OP had said "no 5 months is not enough' then they might have been able to get more. At this point it's like a defacto agreement has been reached it's not likely that the parties involved are going to think it's reasonable to reopen the issue to give him/her even more. I dont think the Credit card, tivo, the BBB, or even a court is going to think at this point that asking for more is 'reasonable'.


Actually, he said that the 5 month offer was the best he would do and that if I didn't like it, he was the highest level for approving this kind of stuff and that there was no one higher that would deal with this issue.

That's why I mentioned earlier that I was pretty much "trapped in a corner".


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

eisenb11 said:


> Actually, he said that the 5 month offer was the best he would do and that if I didn't like it, he was the highest level for approving this kind of stuff and that there was no one higher that would deal with this issue.
> 
> That's why I mentioned earlier that I was pretty much "trapped in a corner".


I hear ya, but a complaint to the BBB or a letter to the president at tivo MIGHT have gotten you a little higher up the food chain. Maybe not. But I think now you are stuck with the 5 months.

good luck though if you try something else.


----------



## dad2n2 (Jul 9, 2003)

call (408) 519-9100 ask for Cal Hoagland, Tivo interim CFO.


----------



## ThreeSoFar'sBro (Oct 10, 2004)

Spoke with CSR again today. They promised a credit, term'd my Series 1, and gave me confirmation numbers. CSR today said she didn't know what the first CSR did. I told her, I did: she did nothing. We'll see in 21 days if it worked!


----------



## chedlin (Apr 13, 2003)

5 months seems a bit cold and I am sure accounting and recognition of revenue comes into play, but I think I understand the initial 3 moth provision.

After 120 days a credit card transaction is pretty much final. It won't be charged back, and it can't be refunded by the merchant. I work with customer accounts in my company, and I can pretty much do anything within our systems, but our merchant account won't let us arbitrarily credit accounts. I can only post refunds against previous transactions that are less than 120 days old, and the total of the refunds can not exceed the original transaction (even by a penny, and requiring code to carefully detect and correct rounding issues).

We have issued refunds going further back in cases just like what the poster described, but it dealt with more money, and we had to issue a check.

At this point your only recourse to go over the 5 months you have been offered would be small claims court. You could get the filing fees and all, but TiVo is gambling it isn't worth your time to sue them over the $60 difference.


----------



## DJHall (Nov 20, 2003)

Sorry to hear this happened to you.

I have had some experience with this both ways. The credit card company doesn't want to be responsible for refunding a year's worth of mistakes to you becasue you didn't keep track of your bill and let them know about it at the beginning. I've been around that track a few times with customers and old internet services or webhosting services that never stopped billing. I've never seen a company go back more than 4 months or so when the only factors were a merchant's mistake and the customer's failure to catch it. It makes it hard for both the merchant and the CC issuer if their isn't a clear cut off date where they only fix serious frauds or breaches of contract and not just run of the mill screwups.

On the other hand, American Express retroactively went back 2 years and refunded every single charge a wireless internet service company charged my father even though we told them the service was fine for the first 6 months to a year and we had signed a two year contract. We had called wireless company and reported regular service outages for 6 months, then requested cancellation for 6 months, and finally turned to American Express for assistance. The WISP didn't answer any telephone calls, return any voice mails, or respond to any letters from Amex for over 4 months, so they nailed them with a chargeback of all charges for the entire contract and terminated their merchant account.

It can happen, but I doubt your CC company will see the 5 month compromise offer from TiVo as unreasonable.


----------



## DJHall (Nov 20, 2003)

IANAL, but for all the people who are saying that charging the card after the cancellation request or after the expiration of their authority to do so equals fraud... IIRC establishing fraud requires also establishing an element of intent. Establishing inent would require you to provide evidence that TiVo either intentionally failed to process cancellation requests or that they knew, or should have known, their cancellation process would fail to process cancellation requests and they did not make reasonable efforts to fix it.

I would think it would be dificult to establish intent in these cases. Lacking intent, and therfore fraud, you would have to fall back on the agreement, or terms of service, between you and TiVo, which usually contains a clause limiting their liability for such events to a reasonable period of time for you to discover the mistake and report it to them.

I'm not saying I agree with that or I think it is the "right" or "ethical" thing to do, but I am fairly confident it is legal. You could try a small claims court judge. Many of them are willing to set aside the legal disclaimers contained in service agreements that no one but the company lawyers have ever read and rule on the basis of fairness, but I wonder if it is worth the time and further aggrivation you will put yourself through to pursue it.


----------



## ThreeSoFar'sBro (Oct 10, 2004)

Here's an update on my case:

I was told 8/11/08 that I'd be receiving a $336 credit as I was continually billed for the old Series 1 that had died. Today I was told that my credit was denied.

Today I spoke to "Tom R." at the Colorado call center. He identified himself as a supervisor, after I asked to speak to the original operator's supervisor. I asked Tom if it was SOP to NOT inform a customer that their promised credit was denied. Tom R. told me that is their normal procedure. After 35 minutes on hold, and then after speaking to two individuals that didn't seem to care, I cannot explain just how upset I am. I've spent thousands on TiVo hardware, $600 on lifetime memberships, and recommended them to numerous people (including one today!). That stops now. 

I believe in the product. The customer service is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous.

If anyone here can help my cause, I'd appreciate it. It's not the money at this point, it's that I hate to be lied to--something my parents instilled in me. UGH!

EDIT: BBB complaint #294740 filed tonight.


----------



## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

The BBB is powerless to help consumers, in my experience. The FTC and your state's Attorney General are much more likely to help you resolve this issue. You can file an FTC complaint online in minutes, and you can do the same with CA's AG - your state may be similar.

If you're willing to take the time to file, a small claims suit would likely result in the fastest remedy - a friend of mine did this when The Good Guys refused to honor an extended warranty claim. He received a phone call to settle the issue within a few days of filing in Small Claims Court.


----------



## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

This thread disappoints me in TiVo customer service.

My experience has been opposite. They've generously given me more more than they were required to give me*, so I've always had a high opinion of them. This thread is disillusioning.


* they once allowed me to transfer my life time sub from my broken S1 to a brand new TiVoHD I bought, even though they didn't have to.


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ThreeSoFar'sBro said:


> Here's an update on my case:
> 
> I was told 8/11/08 that I'd be receiving a $336 credit as I was continually billed for the old Series 1 that had died. Today I was told that my credit was denied.
> 
> ...


BBB is not going to do you any good. All they can do is to ask the company to negotiate with you. And all company has to do is to write letter to you and BBB stating the policy on the subject to have a claim marked as resolved.
Your best choice is small claims court. Tivo will bump it regular court to scare you off, but do not worry - you do not have to have an attorney even in regular court. If they don't settle before trial date, just have all the documentation ready and there is 99% chance that you will win.


----------



## ClubrhythmEnt (Apr 2, 2003)

Grey Griffin said:


> It's not illegal to record a conversation without telling the other person. A recorded conversation may give you some leverage when you are trying to work things out directly between you and a company. However, most legal proceedings won't allow recorded conversations as evidence unless both parties gave consent or there was a court order involved.


Regardless of what your previous employers may have told you it is illegal in certain states for any party, commercial or private, to record telephone conversations without two-party notification. I'm not an attorney but I do work full time in law enforcement in California and have personally testified against people who have done this. Federal law requires only one-party notification but 9 states require two-party notification. Since people on this Forum hail from all over the country I think its prudent that I clear this issue up.

The federal Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510 et seq., prohibits the willful interception of telephone communication by means of any electronic, mechanical, or other device without an applicable exemption. There are two principal exceptions:

Consent: In the absence of more restrictive state law, it is permissible to intercept and record a telephone conversation if one or both of the parties to the call consents. Consent means authorization by only one participant in the call; single-party consent is provided for by specific statutory exemption under federal law. 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2511(2)(d).

"Business telephone" exception
The "business telephone" exception, which generally allows monitoring of calls and taping over an extension phone which is both provided to a subscriber in the ordinary course of a telephone company's business and is being used by that subscriber in the ordinary course of its business. This provision generally permits businesses to monitor the conversations of their employees, including personal conversations.

Penalties: The federal statutes provide criminal penalties for unlawful interception of telephone conversations, including up to five years' imprisonment or a maximum of $10,000 in fines. They also allow for civil remedies, by which private parties are entitled to recover actual and punitive damages, together with fees and costs.

While the U.S. federal law only requires one-party consent, many states have accepted different laws. In some states all parties must give their consent or at least be notified that the call is about to be recorded (with necessary opt-out option: if you dont like them to record the call, you can ask them to stop recording). There also was a case law decision from many years ago (the 1950's) that went to the Supreme Court and affirmed that the federal law does not supersede state authority/statutes unless the call or the tap crosses state lines  that is why each state went ahead and established their own guideline/statute.

States Requiring One Party Notification :

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado
District Of Columbia
Georgia
Hawaii 
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky Louisiana
Maine
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Nebraska
Nevada
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
North Carolina
North Dakota
Oklahoma Oregon
Ohio
Rhode Island
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming

States Requiring Two Party Notification:

California
Connecticut 
Delaware
Florida Massachusetts
Maryland
Michigan
Montana New Hampshire
Pennsylvania
Washington


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> There also was a case law decision from many years ago (the 1950's) that went to the Supreme Court and affirmed that the federal law does not supersede state authority/statutes unless the call or the tap crosses state lines  that is why each state went ahead and established their own guideline/statute.


Interesting. So what happens if I call TiVo support in California from Colorado?
Does Colorado law (one party consent) or California Law (both parties consent) apply? Or does Federal Law apply since call crosses state lines?


----------



## ThreeSoFar'sBro (Oct 10, 2004)

Another Update:

A member of TiVo's executive response team called me yesterday. He apologized, and offered me the correct credit right off the bat. I told him that is what should have been done back in the summer, when this first came up. He agreed. I told him that my fear is that TiVo's poor customer service will be the death of TiVo. He explained that there are two new call centers, and training is slow to get to everyone. I don't get it--even McDonald's won't open a store until all are trained. Hopefully this will be fixed soon. I also hope that the credit actually appears--I've been promised by TiVo before, to no avail.

SPECIAL NOTE TO TIVOJERRY: thanks for your offer of assistance. If the credit doesn't appear, I may be calling on you in the future!


----------

