# Series 3 Questions



## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> What do you mean? It will record from both ATSC and digital cable (via CableCARD) in their original digital format and output digital audio, via optical, for if available. However it will not have any sort of input for an external box or DSS receiver.
> 
> Dan


Perhaps I'm confused on the Series 3 concept. What would the differences be between a standalone Series 3 TiVo and a Cable Company dual tuner hi-def cable box equipped with TiVo software?

Would both boxes only record in hi-def but then output a standard definition analog signal on RF and/or baseband in addition to an analog hi-def output, thus requiring relatively large and expensive hard drives for the amount of 480i content which could be recorded?

Would a Standalone Series 3 dual tuner hi-def Tivo be capable of recording OTA hi-def at the same time as digital cable hi-def signals. Will a dual tuner hi-def Series 3 TiVo be incapable of being used with a digital satellite box?

As you see I'm both ignorant and skeptical at this point!


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Would both boxes only record in hi-def but then output a standard definition analog signal on RF and/or baseband in addition to an analog hi-def output, thus requiring relatively large and expensive hard drives for the amount of 480i content which could be recorded?


What makes you think either box would only output standard def?



> Would a Standalone Series 3 dual tuner hi-def Tivo be capable of recording OTA hi-def at the same time as digital cable hi-def signals.


Yes.



> Will a dual tuner hi-def Series 3 TiVo be incapable of being used with a digital satellite box?


Yes. Series 3 will be be cable and OTA only.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Originally Posted by TiVo Troll
"Would both boxes only record in hi-def but then output a standard definition analog signal on RF and/or baseband in addition to an analog hi-def output, thus requiring relatively large and expensive hard drives for the amount of 480i content which could be recorded?"



jfh3 said:


> What makes you think either box would only output standard def?


I don't.

I think that both boxes would record in whatever quality was received from a source. A hi-def recording takes up a relatively large amount of disc space; standard-def, much less. So if a sub. used a Series 3 merely to access digital content from both cable and OTA at the same time but wasn't able to use the hi-def output its going to cost a great deal for the amount of storage available.

We currently have a "Comcast Motorola DCT 6412 digital cable and high-definition receiver with a built-in DVR. This DVR-enabled box has two tuners so you can record a show while watching another live TV show or you can record two shows at once. It has a 120 GB hard drive, which enables you to record up to 60 hours of standard definition programming or up to 15 hours of high-definition programming."*

*quote is from Comcast's *website*.

As you see while the DCT 6412 records an advertised fairly decent 60 hours at standard-def it only manages 15 hi-def hours. That's fine when renting a DT hi-def box from Comcast because it costs only $10. monthly without any contract or obligation and Comcast will replace it at no charge if it fails. If a Series 3 TiVo costs around $500. plus the required $13. monthly service commitment for at least a year AND a buyer is also responsible for fixing it after the 90 days labor warranty expires that's not so fine!

Comcast's box with *MS Foundation Edition software* works well even without a hi-def TV. But if a user needed to receive digital OTA without hi-def capabilities it would make more sense to use two single tuner Series 2's, one with a set-top ATSC tuner and the other with a cable box, instead of a a Series 3 for that purpose.

It's too bad that dual tuner Series 2's are so limited in what they can receive that they will be completely obsolete once analog programming is no longer available. Why can't dual tuner Series 2's receive analog programming from any two outboard tuner boxes, including cable boxes, satellite boxes, and ATSC tuners?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The Series 3 will also have an analog encoder just like current S2 units. So if you wanted to avoid taking up space with HD recording you can't actually watch in HD then you could simply record your programs from the analog version of the channel instead. The only restriction is that digital cable channels will always be recorded in their original digital format, so you'll have no say of the quality of those. The cable company DVR works exactly the same way. In fact the only difference between a cable company DVR running TiVo software and a S3 is...

1) The cable company DVR will be able to access 2 way services like VOD and PPV
2) The cable company DVR will NOT tune ATSC channels
3) The S3 will come standard with a 250GB hard drive and have an eSATA expansion slot for adding more space via an external hard drive. (most cable DVRs only have 120GB drives)

It's also up in the air as to whether or not the cable company DVRs with TiVo will allow access to network features like TTG and MRV. We'll just have to wait and see on that one.

Dan


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> The Series 3 will also have an analog encoder just like current S2 units. So if you wanted to avoid taking up space with HD recording you can't actually watch in HD then you could simply record your programs from the analog version of the channel instead. The only restriction is that digital cable channels will always be recorded in their original digital format, so you'll have no say of the quality of those. The cable company DVR works exactly the same way. In fact the only difference between a cable company DVR running TiVo software and a S3 is...
> 
> 1) The cable company DVR will be able to access 2 way services like VOD and PPV
> 2) The cable company DVR will NOT tune ATSC channels
> ...


OK. Interesting!

If TiVo's Series 3's will have a (one only?) analog encoder that will be a powerful difference between Series 3 standalones and cable company DVR's using TiVo software.

A DVR with the ability to record digital programming directly AND also record programming from an analog source; that will be a first! So; that leads to other questions:

Having an A/D encoder means that Series 3 TiVo's will be able to record from a line input. Why won't Series 3's be capable of accepting inputs from satellite boxes as well as cable boxes and ATSC tuners?

Why are dual tuner Series 2's limited to recording from only one outboard source? Basically that's what turned me off regarding dual tuner Series 2's. Their hardware could potentially record from three unique outboard sources; channel 3 on tuner 1; channel 3 on tuner 2; plus the line input. They will only work as single source DVR's once analog programming ends and as such are even more limited than single tuner Series 2's are.

Why wouldn't a cable company box with TiVo not access VOD & PPV (assuming of course that the cable service offered them)? I'd think that a regular Series 3 wouldn't be able to, but a cable company box, regardless of the software running on it, would.

Glad to learn about *eSATA*. I'd not known about that option. I hope eSATA hardware will be as easy to use and as available as USB 2 formatted external harddrives. I wonder how prices will compare? External plug-and-play HD's are the perfect complement to a DVR.

TiVo has occasionally overshot the mark when adding features to their DVR's because they value theoretical advances over operational practicalities. Case in point; providing only USB ports for connectivity instead of ethernet until the DT Series 2. I hope the same won't be true of eSATA vs. USB 2.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I split this out of the other thread because it was off topic and was hijacking the thread.

Dan


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> OK. Interesting!
> 
> If TiVo's Series 3's will have a (one only?) analog encoder that will be a powerful difference between Series 3 standalones and cable company DVR's using TiVo software.


Two analog tuners, two atsc tuners, two cable (authorized by CableCards) tuners. The S3 will be able to record from any two of those sources at any given time.


> A DVR with the ability to record digital programming directly AND also record programming from an analog source; that will be a first! So; that leads to other questions:
> 
> Having an A/D encoder means that Series 3 TiVo's will be able to record from a line input. Why won't Series 3's be capable of accepting inputs from satellite boxes as well as cable boxes and ATSC tuners?


It will record the stream of bits direct from the cable company thanks to the cablecard spec. There is no similar standard available from the sat. industry. The DirecTiVo does this because of the partnership DTV and TiVo had.


> Why are dual tuner Series 2's limited to recording from only one outboard source? Basically that's what turned me off regarding dual tuner Series 2's. Their hardware could potentially record from three unique outboard sources; channel 3 on tuner 1; channel 3 on tuner 2; plus the line input. They will only work as single source DVR's once analog programming ends and as such are even more limited than single tuner Series 2's are.


I know of no plans in my area to discontinue analog cable transmissions. There are millions of analog-only components installed in millions homes nationwide. I fully expect to get, at the absolute least, 4 to 5 years of happy analog use from my DT. Are you sure that comcast will send absolutely NO analog signal over it's wire? What will lifeline subscribers do?


> Why wouldn't a cable company box with TiVo not access VOD & PPV (assuming of course that the cable service offered them)? I'd think that a regular Series 3 wouldn't be able to, but a cable company box, regardless of the software running on it, would.


I think you read that wrong: an S3 wouldn't access VOD and PPV (due to the lack of a two-way CC device). A ComcasTiVo would have access to those features.


> Glad to learn about *eSATA*. I'd not known about that option. I hope eSATA hardware will be as easy to use and as available as USB 2 formatted external harddrives. I wonder how prices will compare? External plug-and-play HD's are the perfect complement to a DVR.


When the device was shown at CES, I think megazone or another CES attendee discussed this with TiVoPony and he explained that the expansion drive would be a specially formatted drive available only from TiVo(although I assume it would probably be sold at B&M stores in the same vein as the TiVo brand USB wireless adapter). I would also imagine that some enterprising individuals will figure out how to image that drive onto other after-market eSATA drives and that the DIYers among us will not necessarily have to buy the TiVo brand drives to expand their systems


> TiVo has occasionally overshot the mark when adding features to their DVR's because they value theoretical advances over operational practicalities. Case in point; providing only USB ports for connectivity instead of ethernet until the DT Series 2. I hope the same won't be true of eSATA vs. USB 2.


 When TiVo was designing the S2, broadband penetration in American homes hadn't yet reached the critical mass it is at today, USB ports allowed for more potential flexibility for future developments than a dedicated networking port and the cost of adding both was obviously greater than it is today(evidenced by the fact the DTs still have USB, in addition to the new ethernet prots).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo Troll said:


> If TiVo's Series 3's will have a (one only?) analog encoder that will be a powerful difference between Series 3 standalones and cable company DVR's using TiVo software.


It'll have a single encoder chip capable of encoding two streams. Just like the new S2DT units.



TiVo Troll said:


> A DVR with the ability to record digital programming directly AND also record programming from an analog source; that will be a first! So; that leads to other questions:


Cable DVRs also have the ability to record analog channels, so this is not a unique feature.



TiVo Troll said:


> Having an A/D encoder means that Series 3 TiVo's will be able to record from a line input. Why won't Series 3's be capable of accepting inputs from satellite boxes as well as cable boxes and ATSC tuners?


Because it would only be able to record SD via the line input, not HD, and it would create consumer confusion if it support DSS but only in SD.



TiVo Troll said:


> Why are dual tuner Series 2's limited to recording from only one outboard source? Basically that's what turned me off regarding dual tuner Series 2's. Their hardware could potentially record from three unique outboard sources; channel 3 on tuner 1; channel 3 on tuner 2; plus the line input. They will only work as single source DVR's once analog programming ends and as such are even more limited than single tuner Series 2's are.


Because, as I said before, controlling two external boxes via IR is problamatic. TiVo is all about ease of use, and this decision was probably made for ease of use then technical possibilities.

Also the encoder chip can only handle two streams at once, so even though it technally has 3 "tuners" it could still only record from two at a time.



TiVo Troll said:


> Why wouldn't a cable company box with TiVo not access VOD & PPV (assuming of course that the cable service offered them)? I'd think that a regular Series 3 wouldn't be able to, but a cable company box, regardless of the software running on it, would.


That is exactly what I said. The cable DVR WILL be able to access VOD and PPV, the Series 3 units WILL NOT.



TiVo Troll said:


> Glad to learn about *eSATA*. I'd not known about that option. I hope eSATA hardware will be as easy to use and as available as USB 2 formatted external harddrives. I wonder how prices will compare? External plug-and-play HD's are the perfect complement to a DVR.


Not a whole lot is known. But I believe TiVo is planning on selling their own preformatted eSATA drive for expansion. You'll probably also be able to buy your own eSATA drive and "bless" it using tools from the underground forum. eSATA enclosures are easy to find, and a lot cheaper then USB because they don't require any sort of protocol conversion circuitry.



TiVo Troll said:


> TiVo has occasionally overshot the mark when adding features to their DVR's because they value theoretical advances over operational practicalities. Case in point; providing only USB ports for connectivity instead of ethernet until the DT Series 2. I hope the same won't be true of eSATA vs. USB 2.


The S3 will have Ethernet, USB and eSATA. However you will only be able to add an expansion drive to the eSATA port. It will not work with a USB drive.

And just for the record the reason the original S2 TiVos only had USB was due to a limitation of the platform, not because TiVo was short sighted. At the time they had to choose one or the other and they chose USB due to it's greater flexibility.

Dan


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

gonzotek said:


> Two analog tuners, two atsc tuners, two cable (authorized by CableCards) tuners.


Uhmm.. wha'ts the difference between an analog cable tuner and a digital cable tuner?? Aren't they the same thing? Isn't the only difference decryption?

I find it hard to believe that there has to be 2 tuners for analog cable AND 2 tuners for digital cable when you could just have a single tuner capable of tuning both sets of frequencies...


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> Uhmm.. wha'ts the difference between an analog cable tuner and a digital cable tuner?? Aren't they the same thing? Isn't the only difference decryption?


No, decoding would be one of the major differences. Sure both analog and digital cable tuners tune to a particular frequency, but what they do with the signal on that frequency is vastly different.



Adam1115 said:


> I find it hard to believe that there has to be 2 tuners for analog cable AND 2 tuners for digital cable when you could just have a single tuner capable of tuning both sets of frequencies...


You're probably right that it will be a set of combo tuners, they just mention it all verbosely so that it is clear what you can do with the S3 TiVo.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I split this out of the other thread because it was off topic and was hijacking the thread.
> 
> Dan


Glad to see it!

In an earlier draft of post #5 I actually proposed a separate thread but then just posted #5 as it is to keep it simple.

Gotta' go right now. Will check in later to read and post. Thanks!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Adam1115 said:


> Uhmm.. wha'ts the difference between an analog cable tuner and a digital cable tuner?? Aren't they the same thing? Isn't the only difference decryption?


Analog OTA, analog cable, digital OTA and digital cable all use different tuning technologies. Analog OTA and analog cable both uses NTSC video, but OTA uses VHF and UHF while cable uses "cable ready" frequencies for channels over 13. Digital OTA uses ATSC, which uses sub channels of regular VHF and UHF channels to transmit digital signals. And digital cable uses QAM, which uses sub channels of "cable ready" channels to transmit digital signals.

That being said there are tuners available that support all of those different technologies in a single part. So the S3 will probably only have 2 physical tuners both of which are capable of tuning anything it needs.

Dan


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> OK. Interesting!
> 
> If TiVo's Series 3's will have a (one only?) analog encoder that will be a powerful difference between Series 3 standalones and cable company DVR's using TiVo software.


It has two analog tuners


> A DVR with the ability to record digital programming directly AND also record programming from an analog source; that will be a first! So; that leads to other questions:
> 
> Having an A/D encoder means that Series 3 TiVo's will be able to record from a line input. Why won't Series 3's be capable of accepting inputs from satellite boxes as well as cable boxes and ATSC tuners?


No it doesn't. It just means it can encode an analog video signal.

The S3 does not accept the signal from cable or ATSC boxes, it is designed to tune those sources directly from the wall, so therefore has no need for A/V inputs form an STB. If you want to tune from a satellite or other STB, you need a Series 2.


> Why are dual tuner Series 2's limited to recording from only one outboard source? Basically that's what turned me off regarding dual tuner Series 2's. Their hardware could potentially record from three unique outboard sources; channel 3 on tuner 1; channel 3 on tuner 2; plus the line input. They will only work as single source DVR's once analog programming ends and as such are even more limited than single tuner Series 2's are.


Logistics in the IR control mostly.
Also, the series 2 DT only has two encoders, one fixed to one tuner, the other selectable between the tuner and the A/V input. And still, there is only one RF input. They will be good for a few years yet.
Who knows, they could send an update allowing dual STB, with a second IR blaster controller (plugged into USB).



> Why wouldn't a cable company box with TiVo not access VOD & PPV (assuming of course that the cable service offered them)? I'd think that a regular Series 3 wouldn't be able to, but a cable company box, regardless of the software running on it, would.


A cable company box will have acces to two-way services, as it is their colosed system. The Series 3 won't (at least yet), as the standards don't exist yet.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Uhmm.. wha'ts the difference between an analog cable tuner and a digital cable tuner?? Aren't they the same thing? Isn't the only difference decryption?


In the context of a DVR, where the encoding is done.

An anlog tuner just has to tune the analog channel and present the analog video to a video encoder, which presents its output to the system chip.

A digital tuner has to tune the digital carrier, tune in the proper streams, possibly decrypt (with Cablecard), and pass that to the system chip.



> I find it hard to believe that there has to be 2 tuners for analog cable AND 2 tuners for digital cable when you could just have a single tuner capable of tuning both sets of frequencies...


Nobody knows for sure, but it very well could be one chip, but both very different signals.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

gonzotek said:


> When the device was shown at CES, I think megazone or another CES attendee discussed this with TiVoPony and he explained that the expansion drive would be a specially formatted drive available only from TiVo(although I assume it would probably be sold at B&M stores in the same vein as the TiVo brand USB wireless adapter). I would also imagine that some enterprising individuals will figure out how to image that drive onto other after-market eSATA drives and that the DIYers among us will not necessarily have to buy the TiVo brand drives to expand their systems


Can you provide a citation for this?

I thought it was the opposite -- that it wasn't a special (read expensive) SATA drive.. that it would be able to format any drive (that met the performance requirements if any).. I do remember megazone saying that it would 'marry' the drives like dual-drive expansions do nowadays -- and that recordings that span drives would disappear if you unplugged the SATA drive.. (and he later realized he didn't ask if they'd come back if you hook the drive back up..)


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

In reply to gonzotech's post #7:

First , I did "get it wrong" about a cable box w/TiVo software accessing 2 way services.

gonzotech (Re: Series 3 inputs): "Two analog tuners, two atsc tuners, two cable (authorized by CableCards) tuners. The S3 will be able to record from any two of those sources at any given time."

What channels would the analog tuners receive; cable only or cable plus OTA UHF? Since there is no analog line input, will a Series 3 be able to control a cable box outputing a 480i signal on channel 3 on one or both of its analog tuners. If so why not enable the same capability for satellite receivers so that a user can receive satellite programming at 480i? Adding such capability is more a matter of adapting existing software than developing anything new; it wouldn't increase production costs significantly. 

Regarding Comcast and "all digital programming"; a letter was recently sent "to give you a quick update on improvements we've made to our fiber-optic network in your neighborhood. For the first time we are delivering all of our channels to you in 100% crystal-clear digital format." 

Perhaps Comcast is providing Basic Cable channels in both digital and analog formats. Although Comcast is currently promoting basic Enhanced Cable which includes a (non-DVR) cable box with a MS Foundation Edition EPG and VOD service, there is no need for a cable box to receive basic cable channels on any cable outlet. Comcast's analog picture quality is excellent in my area; indistinguishable from digital.

Regarding eSATA, it appears that TiVo's eSATA formatted drives are designed to deliver the highest theoretical transfer speeds and offer an advanced feature and added profit for TiVo. I hope eSATA doesn't result in problems similiar to those caused by TiVo's USB ports. I would have chosen USB 2 external HD's available everywhere at competitive prices. But, hey, I'm just a mass market consumer, not a product development specialist! 

gonzotech, thanks for your explanation of Series 3 features and capabilities.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

In reply to classicsat's post #13: 

If Series 3 has two analog tuners then either tuner can accept analog channel 3 RF normally sent by most but not all cable, satellite, DVR and other outboard tuner boxes via RG-6 coax to analog TV sets. Why not allow each analog tuner input to control these program sources to provide maximum flexibility during the current changeover period in TV technology. 

In fact why not allow use of the analog tuners in both Series 2 and Series 3 as inputs which can control other program sources. It's not a matter of developing something new; just applying long existing capabilities in newly released products during a transitional period of technology. 

For all practical purposes dual tuner Series 2's have 2 RF inputs and a line input; three in all, and can record from any two at the same time. Unfortunately dual tuner Tivo's are uneccessarily crippled in their potential capabilities They would be much more useful during this transition period of TV technology if upgraded in a relatively low tech way.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

There is no IR controller jack or serial port on the Series 3. So there is no way to control any external STB.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> What channels would the analog tuners receive; cable only or cable plus OTA UHF? Since there is no analog line input, will a Series 3 be able to control a cable box outputing a 480i signal on channel 3 on one or both of its analog tuners. If so why not enable the same capability for satellite receivers so that a user can receive satellite programming at 480i? Adding such capability is more a matter of adapting existing software than developing anything new; it wouldn't increase production costs significantly.


If the chipset Tivo chose supports OTA UHF then I'm sure it will be available but for a medium with a 2-3 year life I'm sure Tivo are not going to go to any effort to include it. Though since cable Channel 3 and VHF channel 3 are the same frequency the question is irrelevant to the rest of your argument. But think about it a Series 3 with 480i input from an STB is a Series 2! Series 3 is an HD recorder for Cable, it complements the DirecTivo not replaces it. The fact thet DirecTV have chosen to ditch Tivo is a completely seperate issue.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm not sure I've seen this point addressed.


TiVo Troll said:


> Would both boxes only record in hi-def but then output a standard definition analog signal on RF and/or baseband in addition to an analog hi-def output, thus requiring relatively large and expensive hard drives for the amount of 480i content which could be recorded?


Both boxes would record whatevers sent to them. If its a digital SD 480i signal it'll record it and it'll take up much less space than an HD signal, less space than a SA TiVo for equivalent video quality (the cable company has more expensive encoders).

Like the current HD TiVo, it'll be able to record a fair amount of HD, and humongous amounts of SD. (For an example, see my sig.)


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

mattack said:


> Can you provide a citation for this?
> 
> I thought it was the opposite -- that it wasn't a special (read expensive) SATA drive.. that it would be able to format any drive (that met the performance requirements if any).. I do remember megazone saying that it would 'marry' the drives like dual-drive expansions do nowadays -- and that recordings that span drives would disappear if you unplugged the SATA drive.. (and he later realized he didn't ask if they'd come back if you hook the drive back up..)


I think you remembered this correctly, and I was wrong. I couldn't find the quote yesterday, but here are the relevent bits from tivolovers.com:
http://www.tivolovers.com/252572.html
http://community.livejournal.com/tivolovers/252572.html?thread=981148#t981148
The exact quote from megazone was that TiVo was "hoping" to allow any eSATA meeting some minimum spec.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> What channels would the analog tuners receive; cable only or cable plus OTA UHF?


The latter.


> Since there is no analog line input, will a Series 3 be able to control a cable box outputing a 480i signal on channel 3 on one or both of its analog tuners.


No, as the Series 3 has no IR control, and is intended to replace any cable STB tuner, except satellite, plus tune analog and digital OTA.



> If so why not enable the same capability for satellite receivers so that a user can receive satellite programming at 480i? Adding such capability is more a matter of adapting existing software than developing anything new; it wouldn't increase production costs significantly.


A: The hardware does not have IR control. B: it could be confusing for consumers. C: The Series 2 is enough for customers that need to use an STB.



> Regarding Comcast and "all digital programming"; a letter was recently sent "to give you a quick update on improvements we've made to our fiber-optic network in your neighborhood. For the first time we are delivering all of our channels to you in 100% crystal-clear digital format."
> 
> Perhaps Comcast is providing Basic Cable channels in both digital and analog formats.


That would be it, they are sending their basic channels twice, once in analog, onece in digital.


> Regarding eSATA, it appears that TiVo's eSATA formatted drives are designed to deliver the highest theoretical transfer speeds and offer an advanced feature and added profit for TiVo. I hope eSATA doesn't result in problems similiar to those caused by TiVo's USB ports. I would have chosen USB 2 external HD's available everywhere at competitive prices. But, hey, I'm just a mass market consumer, not a product development specialist!


Likely the eSATA controller connects directly to the system processor, or is integrated into it.

They likely want to control the drives somehow, to maintain security of recordings.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> In reply to classicsat's post #13:
> 
> If Series 3 has two analog tuners then either tuner can accept analog channel 3 RF normally sent by most but not all cable, satellite, DVR and other outboard tuner boxes via RG-6 coax to analog TV sets. Why not allow each analog tuner input to control these program sources to provide maximum flexibility during the current changeover period in TV technology.


Becasue the Series 3 isn't for that. The Series 3 is to be itself the cable box, hence no need for STB inputs or control. I cannot say this enough, If you want a TiVo to work with an external STB, you need a Series 2, simple as that.


> In fact why not allow use of the analog tuners in both Series 2 and Series 3 as inputs which can control other program sources. It's not a matter of developing something new; just applying long existing capabilities in newly released products during a transitional period of technology.


But the Series 3 does not have the capablility to control any STBs.


> For all practical purposes dual tuner Series 2's have 2 RF inputs and a line input; three in all, and can record from any two at the same time. Unfortunately dual tuner Tivo's are uneccessarily crippled in their potential capabilities They would be much more useful during this transition period of TV technology if upgraded in a relatively low tech way.


How?. The only way I could thing of is to manufacture a USB IR controller, which would take months of development, or hope the various cable/satellite STBs can be addressed.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Arcady said:


> There is no IR controller jack or serial port on the Series 3. So there is no way to control any external STB.


Then why would most people in the mass market decide to buy a standalone Series 3 instead of a much cheaper cable company or satellite dual tuner hi-def DVR (which in some cases would be a TiVo) unless such a user only receives hi-def OTA? A standalone Series 3 TiVo apparently will cost a great deal more than a cable or satellite dual tuner hi-def DVR and although TiVo offers advanced capabilities for scheduling recordings, such TiVo features are beyond what the mass market has indicated are of primary importance to most viewers.

That's a shame actually; TiVo could have offered a universal dual tuner hi-def/standard-def TiVo that would have offered features far beyond what even a cable box with TiVo software can offer! There's no technical reason potentially keeping a dual tuner high-def enabled TiVo from having the same accessibility to standard-def programming from satellite, cable, and OTA as single tuner Series 2's currently have PLUS offering two sources of high-def OTA and cable from its tuners.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Why? Because you can't input HD signals into a TiVo from a STB. Why is this concept so hard to grasp? The TiVo has to tune HD natively (via ATSC, QAM, CableCard, etc.) in order to record it. You can't just plug some component cables or HDMI into a DVR and expect it to deal with the huge bandwidth of that signal. (Well, maybe if the DVR were to cost $3000.) 

Also, who cares if the box can control some SD STB? The whole point is to move away from SD. If you want to control some crappy analog garbage, get a Series 2. If you want to move over to HDTV, then deal with the reality of HD equipment. The whole idea of controlling an external box is such a huge kludge anyway. An integrated unit is light years ahead of that nonsense.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

TiVo Troll said:


> Then why would most people in the mass market decide to buy a standalone Series 3 instead of a much cheaper cable company .... dual tuner hi-def DVR...


Seems to me this part is answered by the new "bundling" service options Tivo has. Presumably the series 3 will at least *eventually* have this available.

i.e. pay $whatever/month and it includes the hardware and the service.

Also, I was intrigued by the series 3 even though I don't have an HDTV (and probably won't get one for quite a while unless my TV dies) nor do I get digital cable -- to be able to get OTA digital and free-on-cable HD/digital channels.. (e.g. the multi-cast channels, like what some of my local PBS stations do). (no lifetime has made me much less intrigued, at least near launch time... unless I manage to get one of the lifetime cards off ebay for non-stratospheric prices)

So you have to also include the requirement for digital cable in the price comparison, since Tivo obviously doesn't require digital cable.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

petew said:


> If the chipset Tivo chose supports OTA UHF then I'm sure it will be available but for a medium with a 2-3 year life I'm sure Tivo are not going to go to any effort to include it. Though since cable Channel 3 and VHF channel 3 are the same frequency the question is irrelevant to the rest of your argument. But think about it a Series 3 with 480i input from an STB is a Series 2! Series 3 is an HD recorder for Cable, it complements the DirecTivo not replaces it. The fact thet DirecTV have chosen to ditch Tivo is a completely seperate issue.


Tivo's Series 3 apparently will be able to receive standard-def signals including "down-rezzed" hi-def signals from an outboard tuner from any source with a channel 3 RF output but won't be able to control such a source thus making its advanced capabilities useless for recording standard-def signals except OTA. Too bad!

The Series 3 could easily have continued the unique capabilities that all standalone TiVo's have had up to now of being capable of accesing and controlling all potential sources of available programming. Unless a knowledgeable poster specifically contradicts me, I expect Series 3 to have the capability to receive both NTSC and ATSC UHF because most ATSC programming is offered on UHF frequencies.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

classicsat said:


> A: The hardware does not have IR control. B: it could be confusing for consumers. C: The Series 2 is enough for customers that need to use an STB.


Re: A: Unfortunately.

Re: B. For SOME consumers undoubtedly but that has never been used as an excuse until now.

Re: C: I disagree completely. These Forum threads have succeeded in persuading me that the dual tuner Series 2 is OK for some applications although I chose to buy two single tuner Series 2's w/Lifetime just before Lifetime ended.

IMHO, Series 3 appears to have unnecessary and arbitrary limits on its capabilities. As described it isn't the best overall DVR (which it should be!) for the period of technical transition which will exist over the next few years.



> That would be it, they are sending their basic channels twice, once in analog, onece in digital.


I called Comcast this morning and a cable tech rep. confirmed that their Basic channels are available in both analog and digital formats and will remain available that way until analog is mandated to be turned off. (I'm unsure about that being a government mandated requirement for cable signals though. Does anyone know?)



> Likely the eSATA controller connects directly to the system processor, or is integrated into it.
> 
> They likely want to control the drives somehow, to maintain security of recordings.


I'm ignorant and would have appreciated standard USB 2 availability. Time will tell about eSATA drives, I guess.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

From post#17 "Why not allow each analog tuner input to control...program sources to provide maximum flexibility during the current changeover period in TV technology."



classicsat said:


> Becasue the Series 3 isn't for that. The Series 3 is to be itself the cable box, hence no need for STB inputs or control. I cannot say this enough, If you want a TiVo to work with an external STB, you need a Series 2, simple as that.
> 
> But the Series 3 does not have the capablility to control any STBs.


You keep saying it and I keep hearing it.

I say, "That's really too bad!" IMHO, TiVo's Series 3 as configured isn't a good deal when compared to cable company dual tuner hi-def DVR's. It's a niche category expensive (but not truly high end) specialty item which could have had a much wider appeal to potential buyers.The $1000. hi-def TV set with an internal tuner is already here. A $500-$750 plus service multisource TiVo would be the perfect complement if it wasn't limited to just CableCard hi-def and OTA standard and hi-def.

Re: Series 2 IR control, in post#17 


> The only way I could thing of is to manufacture a USB IR controller, which would take months of development, or hope the various cable/satellite STBs can be addressed.


The comment to which you're replying concerned Series 2 which already has a jack for an IR blaster. Dual Series 2's could get a software upgrade enabling IR control of two devices, one of which would be received on one tuner's channel 3.

Series 3 would apparently need considerable redesign to be capable of IR control of analog standard def sources. If implemented in the design stage it would have been relatively simple to offer. Not now!

It was a logical enough marketing decision which I just don't like. Hey, I'm just a mass-market consumer, not a product design specialist!


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

> IMHO, Series 3 appears to have unnecessary and arbitrary limits on its capabilities. As described it isn't the best overall DVR (which it should be!) for the period of technical transition which will exist over the next few years.


Please remember, we don't actually have a shipping S3 unit to be able to say it CAN do this or CAN'T do that. There has been a lot of discussion and interpretation of the limited details we have. I myself got the reported drive info wrong and I try hard to stick within the 'known' variables in these kinds of discussions.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Arcady said:


> Why? Because you can't input HD signals into a TiVo from a STB. Why is this concept so hard to grasp? The TiVo has to tune HD natively (via ATSC, QAM, CableCard, etc.) in order to record it. You can't just plug some component cables or HDMI into a DVR and expect it to deal with the huge bandwidth of that signal. (Well, maybe if the DVR were to cost $3000.)
> 
> Also, who cares if the box can control some SD STB? The whole point is to move away from SD. If you want to control some crappy analog garbage, get a Series 2. If you want to move over to HDTV, then deal with the reality of HD equipment. The whole idea of controlling an external box is such a huge kludge anyway. An integrated unit is light years ahead of that nonsense.


You're absolutely right (in a theoretically perfect world inhabited by affluent technophiles)!

In the real world now undergoing major technical transitions there will be a market for combo standard/hi-def TV devices for a yet unknown number of years to come. I don't dispute that external boxes are kludgy but a hi-end user wouldn't have to use one if TiVo had decided to market a true hi-def transition product.

The difference between what I want and what you like is that you'll buy what you like and I definitely won't. But you'd buy what I want (because its accessibility to kludgy compromises wouldn't affect you) and I'd at least seriously consider buying it too!

Although I only have standard-def CRT TV's I have two Comcast cable boxes with MS Foundation Edition software, one of which is a dual tuner hi-def DVR while the other is just a digital cable box. Both access VOD. My total equipment costs related to cable are $10. monthly for the DVR. There's no contract or term obligation for the DVR and Comcast would replace it at no charge if it fails. There's no other cable charge except for the programming. The standard digital cable box is included with the service at no additional charge. There are two other cable outlets for which there is no charge which just provide analog basic cable. I have two single tuner Series 2 TiVo's w/Lifetime service.

In time I'll undoubtedly buy a HD set. In time! I used to own a rear projection ED (480p) 16x9 42" LCD TV set which I ended up giving away when the projection lamp blew. A 16x9 34" TV set provides approximately the same size (of course wider) images as a 4x3 27" set. For screens of that size I find hi-def's appeal marginal and not worth it now. Of course YMMV!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo Troll said:


> Then why would most people in the mass market decide to buy a standalone Series 3 instead of a much cheaper cable company or satellite dual tuner hi-def DVR


Because cable company DVRs suck! Their interfaces are terrible, their features are lacking and they're completely unreliable. Someone who didn't know any better may not care, but anyone who has ever actually used a TiVo would probably rather pay a few extra bucks a month for a S3 then suffer with a cable company DVR.

That being said TiVo is also working with Comcast to port TiVos software to their DVR. When this is released people in the markets able to get it will probably be better off with the cable DVR running TiVo software unless they're the types that just really like to own all their equipment. For everyone else the S3 is their only option.

Dan


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Even if you only have SD CRT sets, HD looks about 900 times better than analog stuff. I watch programs off a 20 year old Sony CRT, fed by my HD TiVo, and they make the TV look like a marvel of technology. Maybe it is because DirecTV's SD stuff is so over-compressed, or maybe it is because.. (hmm never-mind.. it is because DTV is junk.) It is not that HD is so much better, it is because the current SD offerings are compressed to hell, or staticy analog. Once you have HD material available, even you are viewing on an SD set, you can't go back to the old stuff. It's like the transition from cassette to CD, but about 10 times more impressive.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Because cable company DVRs suck! Their interfaces are terrible, their features are lacking and they're completely unreliable. Someone who didn't know any better may not care, but anyone who has ever actually used a TiVo would probably rather pay a few extra bucks a month for a S3 then suffer with a cable company DVR.


Sorry Dan, that's just not true for everybody and all circumstances. My *Comcast dual tuner hi-def Motorola DCT 6412 DVR* *w/VOD and MS Foundation Edition software* actually works quite well, and for $10. monthly with no service contract or maintenance concerns, is a great deal!



> That being said TiVo is also working with Comcast to port TiVos software to their DVR. When this is released people in the markets able to get it will probably be better off with the cable DVR running TiVo software unless they're the types that just really like to own all their equipment. For everyone else the S3 is their only option.
> 
> Dan


I'm looking forward to the availability of Comcast's TiVo box to compare it with Comcast's MS offering.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

TiVo Troll said:


> I say, "That's really too bad!" IMHO, TiVo's Series 3 as configured isn't a good deal when compared to cable company dual tuner hi-def DVR's. It's a niche category expensive (but not truly high end) specialty item which could have had a much wider appeal to potential buyers.The $1000. hi-def TV set with an internal tuner is already here. A $500-$750 plus service multisource TiVo would be the perfect complement if it wasn't limited to just CableCard hi-def and OTA standard and hi-def.


Aren't the only other sources that you haven't mentioned:
Analog cable (which the S3 can tune and record natively, no STB needed)
SD satellite. (Yep, the S3 can't handle satellite; although you are also correct with software changes the hardware could in theory handle it via chan 3 input from a STB[low quality])
HD satellite (No possible way to handle the HD signal, as the encoder chips required to do real time encoding of HD cost upwards of $10,000.*

Switched video cable (requires two way communication, and no standard for that has been approved, leaving each cable companies to roll out their own proprietary system. Fortunately this has very low deployment)
Cable systems that have not rolled out Cable Cards. (It is an FCC requirement that they have them available, so except for some very very small markets all cable companies should have cable cards available)
SD Video over phone, video over fiber. (These are not yet required to provide cable cards, although Verizon FIOS apparently does provide cable cards in at least some of its deployment areas)
HD Video over phone, video over fiber. Same problems as recording HD satellite. Although, again if the company make cable cards available the S3 can handle this as well
Big Dish satellite. Even the existing TiVos don't support this.

So did I overlook a market? Or which of these do you think has a great demand for a dual tuner S3 that would at best only be able to record SD signals through a STB?

Satellite would seem to be the largest, but given the pricing structures for satellite DVRs from DirecTV (many of which are TiVo based) and Dish, it is unlikely that all that many people would rather pay for a pair of standard receivers to record SD only on a dual tuner TiVo, rather than paying for the dual tuner integrated (and thus higher quality and potentially HD capable) DVR from the satellite company.

* Even if we assume Moore's law means the price dropped 50% every 18 months, it would still take 13 1/2 years to get below $40, which is probably the most expensive that would be practical for an encoding chip (and you'd need two of them) in a consumer electronics device.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Arcady said:


> Even if you only have SD CRT sets, HD looks about 900 times better than analog stuff. I watch programs off a 20 year old Sony CRT, fed by my HD TiVo, and they make the TV look like a marvel of technology. Maybe it is because DirecTV's SD stuff is so over-compressed, or maybe it is because.. (hmm never-mind.. it is because DTV is junk.) It is not that HD is so much better, it is because the current SD offerings are compressed to hell, or staticy analog. Once you have HD material available, even you are viewing on an SD set, you can't go back to the old stuff. It's like the transition from cassette to CD, but about 10 times more impressive.


I can't deny that HDTV looks spectacular under the right circumstances.

My program source is Comcast cable which provides Basic cable in both analog and digital and Premium in digital with a fair number of hi-def channels. Picture quality in all formats is surprisingly good. The current differences in detail displayed on a 27" SD 4x3 CRT display vs. a 16x9 34" (actually 32" appears to be more common) LCD or 42" plasma HD display are still marginal for me at normal viewing distances. The widescreen aspect ratio which HD offers is of course more suitable for movies but isn't necessarily better with other material. Once HD displays of 32"-42" size are routinely priced under $1000. it will be time to look again!

Who am I going to believe, you or my lying eyes?


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## puckettcg (Feb 10, 2006)

The Comcast DVR is certainly a better deal than Tivo - and since the S3 is still not out, nor any word on when other than last six months of this year, Tivo is losing marketshare by the day as more and more people choose the cable company DVR. Unless they've tried Tivo, they don't know what they are missing. When I talk to people about their Comcast DVR, they have no complaints, they love it. Its still better than klugy VCR, or DVD Recorders for the few that have those. If the S3 launches at anything near the prices being tossed around on these boards, the battle will be over, and the cable companies will be the victors. 

Having said that, Tivo is clearly superior on so many levels. I am now at 1 week with the Comcast DVR - and it is extremely unreliable. The biggest nuisance is its propensity to shut itself off - daily. You also forget how convenient it is to get 2 weeks of guide data and search for shows when you don't know what time/channel it might be on. It chopped up my recording of American Idol into a 45 minute, 5 minute, 4 minute, 12 minute, and 54 minute segment. And, while it was doing that it dumped me out of viewing a CSI recording everytime it restarted the recording of American Idol. I also dislike that I have really no good way of extracting the information off the Comcast DVR. 

I'm willing to pay a premium (and anything above $0 is a premium compared to the Comcast DVR) for the hardware, to a point. The monthly subscription for Tivo is comparable - slightly higher for one box, slightly less for multiple boxes.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

puckettcg said:


> The Comcast DVR is certainly a better deal than Tivo - and since the S3 is still not out, nor any word on when other than last six months of this year, Tivo is losing marketshare by the day as more and more people choose the cable company DVR. Unless they've tried Tivo, they don't know what they are missing. When I talk to people about their Comcast DVR, they have no complaints, they love it. Its still better than klugy VCR, or DVD Recorders for the few that have those. If the S3 launches at anything near the prices being tossed around on these boards, the battle will be over, and the cable companies will be the victors.
> 
> Having said that, Tivo is clearly superior on so many levels. I am now at 1 week with the Comcast DVR - and it is extremely unreliable. The biggest nuisance is its propensity to shut itself off - daily. You also forget how convenient it is to get 2 weeks of guide data and search for shows when you don't know what time/channel it might be on. It chopped up my recording of American Idol into a 45 minute, 5 minute, 4 minute, 12 minute, and 54 minute segment. And, while it was doing that it dumped me out of viewing a CSI recording everytime it restarted the recording of American Idol. I also dislike that I have really no good way of extracting the information off the Comcast DVR.
> 
> I'm willing to pay a premium (and anything above $0 is a premium compared to the Comcast DVR) for the hardware, to a point. The monthly subscription for Tivo is comparable - slightly higher for one box, slightly less for multiple boxes.


Until the S 3 comes out have Comcast give you the new Moto box 3412, which is much more reliable. Which brings up another factor, are HD recorders less reliable because of the HD transmission of HD on the cable system itself, I know that I have sound loss many times and so do my friends on Comcast, the problem is not the DVR but the station or Comcast head end. The other factor is that with Comcast you have an unlimited warranty on the equipment with free hardware upgrades (I on my 4th DVR Comcast box) on sight if you want. How can TiVo match that.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Jonathan_S said:


> Aren't the only other sources that you haven't mentioned:
> Analog cable (which the S3 can tune and record natively, no STB needed)
> SD satellite. (Yep, the S3 can't handle satellite; although you are also correct with software changes the hardware could in theory handle it via chan 3 input from a STB[low quality])
> HD satellite (No possible way to handle the HD signal, as the encoder chips required to do real time encoding of HD cost upwards of $10,000.*
> ...


Competition is tough. TiVo has given up on its Series 3 offering anything from satellite sources, probably as you point out because of both price and convenience factors. TiVo is also restricting Series 3 cable inputs to digital cable w/o a box. The DVR will receive OTA standard-def as well as hi-def channels.

It's not my product of choice for this period of changing TV technical standards, but TiVo must know their market and competitive position much better than I do.

The only thing which I really would like TiVo to offer is a software upgrade to the dual tuner standard-def Series 2 models expanding their capabilities to include controlling two outboard signal sources at the same time, including OTA ATSC tuners. The second outboard source would be received on channel 3 on one of the two cable tuners.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

puckettcg said:


> The Comcast DVR is certainly a better deal than Tivo - and since the S3 is still not out, nor any word on when other than last six months of this year, Tivo is losing marketshare by the day as more and more people choose the cable company DVR. Unless they've tried Tivo, they don't know what they are missing. When I talk to people about their Comcast DVR, they have no complaints, they love it. Its still better than klugy VCR, or DVD Recorders for the few that have those. If the S3 launches at anything near the prices being tossed around on these boards, the battle will be over, and the cable companies will be the victors.
> 
> Having said that, Tivo is clearly superior on so many levels. I am now at 1 week with the Comcast DVR - and it is extremely unreliable. The biggest nuisance is its propensity to shut itself off - daily. You also forget how convenient it is to get 2 weeks of guide data and search for shows when you don't know what time/channel it might be on. It chopped up my recording of American Idol into a 45 minute, 5 minute, 4 minute, 12 minute, and 54 minute segment. And, while it was doing that it dumped me out of viewing a CSI recording everytime it restarted the recording of American Idol. I also dislike that I have really no good way of extracting the information off the Comcast DVR.
> 
> I'm willing to pay a premium (and anything above $0 is a premium compared to the Comcast DVR) for the hardware, to a point. The monthly subscription for Tivo is comparable - slightly higher for one box, slightly less for multiple boxes.


What software is your Comcast DVR running?


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> I can't deny that HDTV looks spectacular under the right circumstances.
> 
> My program source is Comcast cable which provides Basic cable in both analog and digital and Premium in digital with a fair number of hi-def channels. Picture quality in all formats is surprisingly good. The current differences in detail displayed on a 27" SD 4x3 CRT display vs. a 16x9 34" (actually 32" appears to be more common) LCD or 42" plasma HD display are still marginal for me at normal viewing distances. *The widescreen aspect ratio which HD offers is of course more suitable for movies but isn't necessarily better with other material.* Once HD displays of 32"-42" size are routinely priced under $1000. it will be time to look again!
> 
> Who am I going to believe, you or my lying eyes?


Lost, Earl, and many nature and sport programs are, for myself at least, massively better in HD, even when viewed through a TiVo on an inexpensive 27" CRT. Not trying to convince you to change your mind about anything, just pointing out that different people will prioritize things differently. For instance, we tried to use a Comcast HD DVR and despite the PQ, couldn't stand the unreliability and lack of functionality over our S2 TiVo. We also tried using a HD STB from Comcast w/o DVR, using a TiVo with IR blasters to control it. This also proved to be unreliable in it's recordings. While we loved the picture, we would much rather watch Earl or Lost in SD than not at all so we are now using a serial-controlled STB from Comcast with a DT from TiVo, and can record from all the non-HD digital channels and regularly record two things at once from the analog channels. I've been checking and I have yet to have a digital/digital conflict requiring me to choose between recording one thing or the other(although we had a three-way conflict last week with Lost, American Idol, and another show whose name is escaping me now).


> TiVo is also restricting Series 3 cable inputs to digital cable w/o a box.


???
My understanding is that it can also record analog cable


> The only thing which I really would like TiVo to offer is a software upgrade to the dual tuner standard-def Series 2 models expanding their capabilities to include controlling two outboard signal sources at the same time, including OTA ATSC tuners. The second outboard source would be received on channel 3 on one of the two cable tuners.


How would that work with _just_ a software upgrade? You get a serial control cable and IR blasters in the box with a DT....Unless the two external source devices you happen to need to connect to a DT are exactly ONE controlled by IR and ONE controlled by serial you end up back down to a single source, even if the software was there to do it.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> TiVo is also restricting Series 3 cable inputs to digital cable w/o a box.


There was no such restriction in the information provided at CES. The information was that the Series 3 would record anything from cable, analog NTSC, digital QAM, and encrypted digital as well as anything from an off-air antenna (NTSC or ATSC).


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

TiVo Troll said:


> TiVo is also restricting Series 3 cable inputs to digital cable w/o a box.


It will also do analog cable w/o a box. Although if you are just using it for that a S2 DT would be a better deal.

And using the S3 with a cable box would be a poor idea, because the picture quality (not even counting HD), convience, channel changing speed and accuracy, will be better with S3 directly connected to cable than with a TiVo controling a cable STB. Why add inputs and programing to let the TiVo be used is a worse situation that directly connected cable?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

gonzotek said:


> Lost, Earl, and many nature and sport programs are, for myself at least, massively better in HD, even when viewed through a TiVo on an inexpensive 27" CRT. Not trying to convince you to change your mind about anything, just pointing out that different people will prioritize things differently. For instance, we tried to use a Comcast HD DVR and despite the PQ, couldn't stand the unreliability and lack of functionality over our S2 TiVo. We also tried using a HD STB from Comcast w/o DVR, using a TiVo with IR blasters to control it. This also proved to be unreliable in it's recordings. While we loved the picture, we would much rather watch Earl or Lost in SD than not at all so we are now using a serial-controlled STB from Comcast with a DT from TiVo, and can record from all the non-HD digital channels and regularly record two things at once from the analog channels. I've been checking and I have yet to have a digital/digital conflict requiring me to choose between recording one thing or the other(although we had a three-way conflict last week with Lost, American Idol, and another show whose name is escaping me now).


What software are your Comcast boxes running? What model of Comcast box are you controlling with serial-control? My Comcast non-DVR cable box is a Motorola DCT 2000 running MS Foundation Edition software which, although it has a serial port, can't be controlled through it. I'm really no fan of IR control, but will do whatever is necessary to make something work better than half fast! 



> My understanding is that (Series 3 TiVo's) can also record analog cable


Good! I misinterpreted what you wrote about Series 3 inputs in post #7.

From post #39:
"The only thing which I really would like TiVo to offer is a software upgrade to the dual tuner standard-def Series 2 models expanding their capabilities to include controlling two outboard signal sources at the same time, including OTA ATSC tuners. The second outboard source would be received on channel 3 on one of the two cable tuners."



> How would that work with _just_ a software upgrade? You get a serial control cable and IR blasters in the box with a DT....Unless the two external source devices you happen to need to connect to a DT are exactly ONE controlled by IR and ONE controlled by serial you end up back down to a single source, even if the software was there to do it.


Am I making an error? Here's what I'm thinking: IR blasters come with two emitters connected to one plug. Therefore there's an emitter for each of two sources. Place one emitter in front of each source's IR window and select both devices from the Series 2 TiVo's control database (after Series 2's software is upgraded). When a "wrong" IR code is blasted to one of the outboard sources that device won't erroneously change channels. Voila! You'll have control of two outboard tuner sources, one configured to input through the line inputs and the other through one of the tuners via channel 3.


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## puckettcg (Feb 10, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> What software is your Comcast DVR running?


I don't know - and I don't know how to check


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

TiVo Troll said:


> Am I making an error? Here's what I'm thinking:
> IR blasters come with two emitters connected to one plug.
> Therefore there's an emitter for each of two sources.
> 
> ...


The problem is that if you have two STBs from your satellite company they most likely have identical remote control settings.

And since the two emitters from the IR blaster port send out an identical signal (they aren't, even in theory independently controllable), you are likely to get many incorrect channel changes.

For that to work, you would be restricted to STBs that have (or can be configured to have) different, non-overlapping, IR codes. 
I think that would be an even more confusing (and difficult to explain and verify) restriction than requiring IR "forts" around separate IR blasters. (Which would be required to block interference if you wanted to support two identical STBs with 1 DT TiVo)


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> And using the S3 with a cable box would be a poor idea, because the picture quality (not even counting HD), convience, channel changing speed and accuracy, will be better with S3 directly connected to cable than with a TiVo controling a cable STB. Why add inputs and programing to let the TiVo be used is a worse situation that directly connected cable?


Because there are cases where without the box it just won't work.

For example, *all* Canadian HD users *must* use a box, either cable or satellite.

No STB control, no S3 tivo sales in Canada. A potential market of 30 million people, just blown away with a "we don't care".

It's really that simple.


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Because there are cases where without the box it just won't work.
> 
> For example, *all* Canadian HD users *must* use a box, either cable or satellite.
> 
> ...


Since I don't know much about Canadian laws or cable systems i'll ask the obvious question. Canadian cable systems don't offer cable cards?

This has been covered in this thread already, but...
It just isn't practical/possible to record an HD signal from component/DVI/HDMI. I can't think of a single consumer electronic device that does this. Big red flags that come to mind are copy protection (HDCP) and cost.

It seems to me this isn't a matter of "we don't care," but a matter of "we can't do it for several reasons."

UPDATE:
Did some additional searching and dug up this thread on PVRblog that might shed some additional light on the subject. Lots of good information on the subject.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Because there are cases where without the box it just won't work.
> 
> For example, *all* Canadian HD users *must* use a box, either cable or satellite.
> 
> ...


But an S3 can't record HD from a STB, so while I suppose it could get you dual tuner downconverted SD that would be an awfully expensive way to do that. (What with paying for those unused HD tuners)


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

puckettcg said:


> I don't know - and I don't know how to check


Yeah, it's confusing. Do any of these links help?

#1

#2

#3

#4


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Jonathan_S said:


> The problem is that if you have two STBs from your satellite company they most likely have identical remote control settings.
> 
> And since the two emitters from the IR blaster port send out an identical signal (they aren't, even in theory independently controllable), you are likely to get many incorrect channel changes.
> 
> ...


Why do you believe that utilizing two blasters would present any more problems than when two blasters are used to control two devices now?

Although you're correct that in most instances a user couldn't independently control two tuner boxes from one cable, satellite, or ATSC OTA source, it still would be easy to control one tuner from any two of the three types of sources at one time. Of course there's also the second Series 2 internal basic cable tuner, so the resulting options would:

1. add the ability to control a cable box and a satellite box at the same time;

2. control a cable box and an OTA digital or analog tuner at the same time;

3. control a satellite box and an OTA digital or analog tuner at the same time;

to the existing capabilities of;

4. simultaneously tuning two basic cable channels;

5. controlling a digital cable box at the same time as tuning a basic cable channel;

6. controlling a satellite box at the same time as tuning a basic cable channel.

Every possible combination still wouldn't be available, but the potential capabilities would be more than doubled!


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

This thread is really getting pointless. The S3 replaces traditionaly cable boxes. That's that, that's what the design is, end of story. I'm unsubsribing, TiVo Troll is living up to his name.


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## popechild (May 17, 2002)

Re: inability in CE devices to record HD signals from Component/DVI/HDMI/etc.

I realize at this point that this is either A) impossible: if you're talking about specific devices (like tivo S3) or B) really expensive: in those rare high end products (not typically consumer) that will do it.

My question is - can someone help me understand why this is so difficult? And before you jump into a description of the massive bandwidth and storage requirements of uncompressed hd, I'll point out that it's the same signal that's coming in and being decoded by the cable box/satellite/cable card/whatever.

For instance, hd signal of Lost is coming in over coax to my comcast cable box. This obviously needs to be decoded, but it's apparently not a big deal to record it at that stage, since that's what all these hd dvrs (including tivo s3) do. So now the box/card/s3 decodes the signal and sends it on its merry way via component/dvi/hdmi. WHY is the signal now a gazillion times bigger now to the point that it's so difficult to capture and record it? What does the decoding device do to the signal to make it such a massively larger signal? I've never been able to understand this in a practical way.

Is it completely a matter of compression? For example, the full uncompressed signal is 10000 units large (as an example), and it's compressed down to 100 units large when it's sent out by sat/cable/ota. So it comes in to cable box/sat/cable card, and it's decrypted as well as uncompressed. Now the 10000 unit signal gets sent out to the tv, which is too large for a recording device to handle. Does that sound right?

If so, how is it that d-vhs recorders work? Or how will hd-dvd recorders work?


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

popechild said:


> Is it completely a matter of compression? For example, the full uncompressed signal is 10000 units large (as an example), and it's compressed down to 100 units large when it's sent out by sat/cable/ota. So it comes in to cable box/sat/cable card, and it's decrypted as well as uncompressed. Now the 10000 unit signal gets sent out to the tv, which is too large for a recording device to handle. Does that sound right?
> 
> If so, how is it that d-vhs recorders work? Or how will hd-dvd recorders work?


Full bandwidth ATSC (compressed over the air HD) is 19.4 mbps, or about 8.5 gigabytes per hour.
HDMI (uncompressed HD from your STB to your TV) is around 2.5 gbps, or about 1,125 gigabytes per hour

Or 145 times larger.

For reference D-VHS has a max rate of about 28 mbps, which means it only works with compressed HD video.

The problem with handling uncompressed HD is both the quite large compression ratio, and the sheer volume of data. While a chip that can manage 145 to 1 compression in real time might not be too expensive, one that can handle data faster than the PCI-X bus of a new top of the line computer can even move the data is a significant challenge.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

btwyx said:


> This thread is really getting pointless. The S3 replaces traditionaly cable boxes. That's that, that's what the design is, end of story. I'm unsubsribing, TiVo Troll is living up to his name.


Exactly! The Series 3 is a _Cable_CARD product. The whole point of CableCARD is that you don't need an external STB for recording digital _cable_. They actually went above and beyond with the Series 3 by adding the ability to record ATSC as well. (cable DVRs don't do that)

If you want a device to record HDTV from DSS, or some other external source, then look elsewhere. The Series 3 is a _Cable_CARD device and as such is designed for use with cable. It's not a generic standalone product designed for all sources like the Series 2.

Dan


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Exactly! The Series 3 is a _Cable_CARD product. The whole point of CableCARD is that you don't need an external STB for recording digital _cable_. They actually went above and beyond with the Series 3 by adding the ability to record ATSC as well. (cable DVRs don't do that)
> 
> If you want a device to record HDTV from DSS, or some other external source, then look elsewhere. The Series 3 is a _Cable_CARD device and as such is designed for use with cable. It's not a generic standalone product designed for all sources like the Series 2.
> 
> Dan


...and unless the ever-present predictions of TiVo's imminent doom turn out to be true this year, it isn't as though the S3, as shown at CES, is the LAST product TiVo will ever release.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

gonzotek said:


> ...and unless the ever-present predictions of TiVo's imminent doom turn out to be true this year, it isn't as though the S3, as shown at CES, is the LAST product TiVo will ever release.


The dual tuner series 2 could be the last product they ever release. Still waiting on an official announcment of the series 3 product, let alone actual availability for purchase.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The official announcement for the Series 3 came at CES. They didn't give a firm release date, only second half of 2006, but it was an official announcement.

Dan


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## popechild (May 17, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Full bandwidth ATSC (compressed over the air HD) is 19.4 mbps, or about 8.5 gigabytes per hour.
> HDMI (uncompressed HD from your STB to your TV) is around 2.5 gbps, or about 1,125 gigabytes per hour
> 
> Or 145 times larger.
> ...


Thanks. Can you explain *why* the data coming in (say to a cable box for example) is only 19.4, but the signal going from the box to the tv is so much larger (145x)? It would seem that there should be a way to take the same signal that comes into the box at 19.4 and pass it straight through at that same size so that the recording device can handle it. Is this so that the display device (tv) doesn't have to do the decompression itself?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> I say, "That's really too bad!" IMHO, TiVo's Series 3 as configured isn't a good deal when compared to cable company dual tuner hi-def DVR's.


How so? With cable DVRs, you can't even record form OTA, nor transfer recordings to your PC and typically to another DVR.
I admit the Series 3 cannot do two-way cable features.



> It's a niche category expensive (but not truly high end) specialty item which could have had a much wider appeal to potential buyers.The $1000. hi-def TV set with an internal tuner is already here. A $500-$750 plus service multisource TiVo would be the perfect complement if it wasn't limited to just CableCard hi-def and OTA standard and hi-def.


Exactly, the Series 3 is a niche product for the high end enthusiasts, not for the mass market. The Series 2 is the Mass Market TiVo DVR.



> Re: Series 2 IR control, in post#17
> 
> The comment to which you're replying concerned Series 2 which already has a jack for an IR blaster. Dual Series 2's could get a software upgrade enabling IR control of two devices, one of which would be received on one tuner's channel 3.


That is supposing the STBs use addressable IR protocols. Most cable boxes do not. Otherwist a wholly second IR blaster controller is needed.



> It was a logical enough marketing decision which I just don't like. Hey, I'm just a mass-market consumer, not a product design specialist!


Then look into the Series 2.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

terryfoster said:


> Since I don't know much about Canadian laws or cable systems i'll ask the obvious question. Canadian cable systems don't offer cable cards?


Not at this time, and AFAIK, they don't plan to. They aren't obligated to by the CRTC. I did hear they were considering the next think after Cablecard though.(I don't know what its exact name is, but it uses fixed field programmable security).


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Why do you believe that utilizing two blasters would present any more problems than when two blasters are used to control two devices now?


That's fine when the two devices are dissimilar.

90% of the time a person would wont to use two STBs, they would be the same service, satellite+satellite, or cable+cable, hence the problem of using one IR controller for two like STBs..


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

popechild said:


> Thanks. Can you explain *why* the data coming in (say to a cable box for example) is only 19.4, but the signal going from the box to the tv is so much larger (145x)? It would seem that there should be a way to take the same signal that comes into the box at 19.4 and pass it straight through at that same size so that the recording device can handle it. Is this so that the display device (tv) doesn't have to do the decompression itself?


Yes, itis so the TV doesn't have to decompress, plus the high bandwidth itself is to some degree secure.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

btwyx said:


> This thread is really getting pointless. The S3 replaces traditionaly cable boxes. That's that, that's what the design is, end of story. I'm unsubsribing, TiVo Troll is living up to his name.


That's exactly why I chose the nic TiVo Troll. I'll stop replying to this thread when there's nothing of interest to reply to. Right now my interest isn't Series 3, but rather Series 2.

You're right; Series 3 is a new category of TiVo; a very specialized and somewhat expensive TiVo with a focus unlike any previous TiVo. Its success or failure depends on how its costs and features compare with DVR's from cable and satellite providers. End of story!


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Re: Series 2 IR control, in post#17

"Dual Series 2's could get a software upgrade enabling IR control of two devices, one of which would be received on one tuner's channel 3."



classicsat said:


> That is supposing the STBs use addressable IR protocols. Most cable boxes do not. Otherwist a wholly second IR blaster controller is needed.


*Huh?*


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

classicsat said:


> That's fine when the two devices are dissimilar.
> 
> 90% of the time a person would want to use two STBs, they would be the same service, satellite+satellite, or cable+cable, hence the problem of using one IR controller for two like STBs..


True enough unfortunately and a limitation which can't easily be overcome. But digital or analog OTA reception along with either cable or satellite would be relatively easy to enable.


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

terryfoster said:


> Since I don't know much about Canadian laws or cable systems i'll ask the obvious question. Canadian cable systems don't offer cable cards?


Nope. And no plans to do so, as far as I know.



> It just isn't practical/possible to record an HD signal from component/DVI/HDMI. I can't think of a single consumer electronic device that does this. Big red flags that come to mind are copy protection (HDCP) and cost.
> 
> It seems to me this isn't a matter of "we don't care," but a matter of "we can't do it for several reasons."
> 
> ...


Thanks, that does make it more understandable. So the cablecard lets you access the original stream, while it's still small enough to work with.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Re: Series 2 IR control, in post#17
> 
> "Dual Series 2's could get a software upgrade enabling IR control of two devices, one of which would be received on one tuner's channel 3."
> 
> *Huh?*


With most, if not all, of the devices in that list, generally you can't change the code to something other than the way it is set by the factory. Therefore its 'address' is always the same. To compare, the TiVo can use up to nine(I think) discrete codes and you could have 9 TiVos stacked up on one another and, using a universal remote with nine device functions, control each one independently and the rest will ignore button presses not sent to their address.

My suspicion is that most households would be using STBs that are all the same model, or very similar in models and identical codes(for instance the remote comcast hands out in my area is the same dvr remote no matter which STB you get).

Do you really think the market for a device that records video from multiple cable and satellite STBs, simultaneously, is large enough to justify the development, distribution, marketing and support(a biggie) costs? If so, I'd like to see some survey or other research data supporting that conclusion.


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## puckettcg (Feb 10, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> Yeah, it's confusing. Do any of these links help?
> 
> #1
> 
> ...


Yep - I have #1


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

gonzotek said:


> With most, if not all, of the devices in that list, generally you can't change the code to something other than the way it is set by the factory. Therefore its 'address' is always the same. To compare, the TiVo can use up to nine(I think) discrete codes and you could have 9 TiVos stacked up on one another and, using a universal remote with nine device functions, control each one independently and the rest will ignore button presses not sent to their address.
> 
> My suspicion is that most households would be using STBs that are all the same model, or very similar in models and identical codes(for instance the remote comcast hands out in my area is the same dvr remote no matter which STB you get).
> 
> Do you really think the market for a device that records video from multiple cable and satellite STBs, simultaneously, is large enough to justify the development, distribution, marketing and support(a biggie) costs? If so, I'd like to see some survey or other research data supporting that conclusion.


Perhaps not. But the inability to record OTA UHF is a major limitation for the dual tuner Series 2 version of TiVo. All previous standalone TiVo's have been able to record from all program sources even if they used kludgy IR emitters to do so.

Actually there's a hardware limitation in the new dual tuner Series 2 which causes additional problems when attempting to use an external OTA digital or analog tuner inputted on channel 3. A dual tuner Ser. 2 TiVo only has a single coax input which it then splits internally to send signals to its two tuners. Therefore if a signal from an external device was introduced via coax it would require a diplexer type device to block channel 3 cable signals and insert the channel 3 signal from the external tuner. I have such an input inserter from Radio Shack, designed for gaming consoles I believe, but it presents another level of complexity which isn't suitable for the mass market.

Therefore for practical marketing reasons the dual tuner Series 2 will have to remain capable of receiving only two analog basic cable channels or one analog cable channel and one analog output from one digital cable or satellite box. However it would still be easy for IR codes for ouboard ATSC or NTSC OTA boxes to be added to the dual Ser. 2 database for users who don't have digital cable or satellite but do receive OTA broadcasts. But, hey, good things in life often require making compromises!

TiVo's developers undoubtedly considered the options and selected the compromise solution which they believe will produce the greatest revenue in relation to their production and support costs.

I like TiVo but am not a "Tivolutionary". For me TiVo's DVR product is a very reliable and sophisticated one which although very useful doesn't do everything. There are certain functions which other recorders do better. I doubt any current DVR is as flexible in input options as ReplayTV was. However ReplayTV didn't make it and in any case had too many undotted 'i's" and uncrossed "t's". It would be exciting if MS or TiVo or another enterprising digital entity would buy ReplayTV's software and develop it as it should have been.

There is no DVR or DVD/HD recorder which doesn't require making some compromises. If posters, such as "btwyx" in post #52, don't appreciate my comments, so be it. They don't have to read or reply to them. But I'll post whenever something TiVo related appears interesting.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

puckettcg said:


> Yep - I have #1


That probably explains it. The *PVR Comparison website* really rakes the Comcast DVR (Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000) with SARA software over the coals!

Here are two additional negative reviews of the SAE 8000 to which the PVR Comparison site provides links :

_Random Recorder_ by *Dave Hitt*

*Phillip Dampier* on Google Groups.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

popechild said:


> Thanks. Can you explain *why* the data coming in (say to a cable box for example) is only 19.4, but the signal going from the box to the tv is so much larger (145x)?


The cable company (and DBS company and OTA stations) use compressed MPEG2 transport streams. The content is ... compressed.

DVI (and HDMI) are uncomrpessed digital video signals. Component is analog ('uncompressed') ... feed it through an analog to digital converter and ... you get the same uncomressed digital signal as DVI (or HDMI).


popechild said:


> It would seem that there should be a way to take the same signal that comes into the box at 19.4 and pass it straight through at that same size so that the recording device can handle it.


Yes, there is. In fact, all cable companies are suppsed to support it (FCC regulation) ...

Firewire

Firewire provides the compressed MPEG2 transport stream. And there are consumer recording devices that record HD from cable STB Firewire outputs. DVHS recorders use Firewire. People record to HTPCs by Firewire.


popechild said:


> Is this so that the display device (tv) doesn't have to do the decompression itself?


There are advantages / disadvantages to an uncompressed interface (like DVI or HDMI). Yes, difficulty recording ($$$) is certainly one of those disadvantages. There are advantages / disadvantages to a compressed interface (like Firewire). Yes, requiring decoders downstream is certainly on of those disadvantages.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Perhaps not. But the inability to record OTA UHF is a major limitation for the dual tuner Series 2 version of TiVo. All previous standalone TiVo's have been able to record from all program sources even if they used kludgy IR emitters to do so.


The DT could tune from OTA analog if they it wanted to, but to be compliant with the Digital TV rules, they cannot have it directly capable of analog OTA tuning (well, they could now, but it is just easier and less confusing to get it out the door meeting the digital OTA requirements it not tune anaog OTA, or have a digital OTA tuner).



> Actually there's a hardware limitation in the new dual tuner Series 2 which causes additional problems when attempting to use an external OTA digital or analog tuner inputted on channel 3. A dual tuner Ser. 2 TiVo only has a single coax input which it then splits internally to send signals to its two tuners.


That is the way it was intentionally designed.
Outside of that, I think you are confusing the actual design of the box with your concept.

It is not

Tuner 1> Encoder 1
Tuner 2> Encoder 2
A/V ins > Encoder 3

Rather, it is:

Tuner 1> Encoder 1
Tuner 2> Switch>Encoder 2
A/V ins -----|

In the event that a situation were to arise where one could use the fixed tuner to work as a CH 3 input from an external tuner, and the other encoder on its A/V in, no special hardware need be used to feed the CH3 output from the tuner to the DT RF in.



> Therefore for practical marketing reasons the dual tuner Series 2 will have to remain capable of receiving only two analog basic cable channels or one analog cable channel and one analog output from one digital cable or satellite box.


Exactly, the way TiVo wants it.


> However it would still be easy for IR codes for ouboard ATSC or NTSC OTA boxes to be added to the dual Ser. 2 database for users who don't have digital cable or satellite but do receive OTA broadcasts. But, hey, good things in life often require making compromises!


They could develop support for digital OTA tuners for all Series 2s.

If a person only has OTA, then they need a ST TiVo, whose tuner can tune analog OTA. In the future OTA analog won't be around anymore.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

_"Actually there's a hardware limitation in the new dual tuner Series 2 which causes additional problems when attempting to use an external OTA digital or analog tuner inputted on channel 3. A dual tuner Ser. 2 TiVo only has a single coax input which it then splits internally to send signals to its two tuners."_



classicsat said:


> That is the way it was intentionally designed.
> Outside of that, I think you are confusing the actual design of the box with your concept.
> 
> It is not
> ...


It's a given that there are two, not 3, A/D encoders, and that channel 3 can be used as an input in a dual tuner Series 2. BUT, without a software update there is currently no way to control an outboard tuner which sends its output via channel 3. Unless I'm mistaken, DT Series 2 IR blaster is only associated with the line input. Further, if channel 3 is used as an input in a dual tuner Series 2 as currently configured it will disable both tuners' ability to tune anything else unless the Ch. 3 RF is introduced via a diplexing arrangement.

_"However it would still be easy for IR codes for ouboard ATSC or NTSC OTA boxes to be added to the dual Ser. 2 database for users who don't have digital cable or satellite but do receive OTA broadcasts."_



> (TiVo) could develop support for digital OTA tuners for all Series 2s.
> 
> If a person only has OTA, then they need a ST TiVo, whose tuner can tune analog OTA. In the future OTA analog won't be around anymore.


Not just "only" OTA but OTA along with satellite and/or cable. I just "sniped" a "NEW LG LST-3510A HDTV RECEIVER TUNER DVD Player SEALED" (copy & paste on eBay Search) which are not only ATSC capable but can receive unscrambled digital cable channels (QAM) and also play DVD's!

TiVo divorced hi-def from analog capabilities (except for analog OTA in Series 3) when developing their parallel lines of SA dual tuner TiVos for reasons undoubtedly having to do with price point considerations.

But what's really happening is digital technology is being phased in to replace analog regardless of resolution. IOW, a fair amount of standard-def programming will remain, considering that broadcasters can choose to send up to six SD digital programs in place of one hi-def program.

But why not a hi-def TiVo capable of receiving all analog signals which will still be around for several years; especially if the cost of TiVo service for additional hi-def TiVo's remains at $7. monthly? Apparently TiVo doesn't believe that enabling such capability would be cost effective.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> But why not a hi-def TiVo capable of receiving all analog signals which will still be around for several years; especially if the cost of TiVo service for additional hi-def TiVo's remains at $7. monthly? Apparently TiVo doesn't believe that enabling such capability would be cost effective.


Um, the Series 3. It can tune any direct analog source, cable or OTA.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

classicsat said:


> Um, the Series 3. It can tune any direct analog source, cable or OTA.


Yeah; vat da heck? Ve dun't need no stinkin' satellite!

*Actually the Series 3 looks pretty damned good!*


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## jsteres (Sep 11, 2002)

Does anyone know if I record an HD program on a Series 3 if I can still transfer it to a Series 2 and watch on my other TV (obviously the quality would be downgraded)? How about use of TiVo to Go?

Thanks, Jeff


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## popechild (May 17, 2002)

jsteres said:


> Does anyone know if I record an HD program on a Series 3 if I can still transfer it to a Series 2 and watch on my other TV (obviously the quality would be downgraded)? How about use of TiVo to Go?
> 
> Thanks, Jeff


No, and No.

Because, you know... the S3 is a high end, cutting edge product, aimed at the elite tech-savvy user. That's why they can charge $800 for it. [/sarcasm]


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## jsteres (Sep 11, 2002)

That sucks! 

So, does the entire transfer feature go away, or just for HD programs? What about from a Series 3 to a Series 3? (Not that I plan to spend >$1,500 for 2...but some day!)

Thanks!


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

popechild said:


> No, and No.
> 
> Because, you know... the S3 is a high end, cutting edge product, aimed at the elite tech-savvy user. That's why they can charge $800 for it. [/sarcasm]


How do you know that MRV won't work between the series3 and series2??


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

jsteres said:


> Does anyone know if I record an HD program on a Series 3 if I can still transfer it to a Series 2 and watch on my other TV (obviously the quality would be downgraded)? How about use of TiVo to Go?


My first guess would be you can't do that because the mpeg decoder on the Series 2 would choke on a stream with HD resolution. Before you can downgrade the output, you still have to recover the full HD frames from the 2 mbyte/second mpeg stream.


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

The correct answer is we dont know if you can transfer and wont till Tivo either tells us or releases the product anything else is speculation


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Actually the answer is definitely no. As vman41 said the MPEG-2 decoder chip in the S2 units is not capable of decoding HDTV streams. Which means it's impossible for them to play back an HD recording. Now some may suggest that it's possible for the S3 to down sample the video before sending it to the S2, but the hardware is not setup that way and it's really not something they can do.

Basically if you want MRV for HD then you're going to have to get multiple S3 units.

Dan


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Actually the answer is definitely no.


I wouldn't go that far.

I agree that you're not going to be able to transfer HD stuff from a S3 to a S2, but what about SD recordings?


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## cmaasfamily (Jan 26, 2006)

What about the other way around - MRV from S2 to S3?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> I wouldn't go that far.
> 
> I agree that you're not going to be able to transfer HD stuff from a S3 to a S2, but what about SD recordings?


I was only talking about HD. It should work just fine for SD recoridngs.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cmaasfamily said:


> What about the other way around - MRV from S2 to S3?


That should work just fine.

Dan


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