# Sales Tax on Lifetime (Calif) ?



## LBCABob (Apr 21, 2001)

Just put my Premiere under Product Lifetime ($299 w/multi-unit discount). They have charged $29.25 in sales tax which surprised me. They do not charge sales tax on the $9.95 monthly fee on my other unit. They DID include $29.25 as tax on the first $9.95 monthly fee about which I complained and TiVo subsequently credited under the guise of "Customer Satisfaction" rather than an actual correction. Perhaps their system "thinks" I owe Calif sales tax on the hardware itself even though I bought it "used" on eBay from a Texas TiVo customer.

Since they billed me for a 2nd monthly $9.95 AND the Lifetime $299 (+tax), I am going to have to call TiVo to get a credit for that (and, per their policy, the 1st month's $9.95, too, since I called to switch to Lifetime within 30 days), will try to get the $29.25 reversed AGAIN.

Have other *California* customers been charged $29.25 (or similar) sales tax on their Product Lifetime purchase?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I recently got a Lifetime Premiere via the $470 S3 upgrade offer. They did charge me CA tax for the $199 lifetime service portion, but not the hardware portion of the total. Kind of makes sense in my case though since hardware was shipped from Texas while the service fee is technically from Alviso, CA.


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

I have not been charged tax on either of my Tivo Services, not even the lifetime. They might be charging sales tax now because of the CA state deficit. 

It also seems to be over charging tax on $299 @ 9.75% = $29.15


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

They charged me texas sales tax on the premier and the lifetime service when I bought mine last year too.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

I live in CT and the sales tax is 6% but TiVo charges me 1% on PLS, in all my years in CT I never heard of anything that was charges a 1% sales tax before, but for 1% I not going to try to figure that out.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

ThAbtO said:


> I have not been charged tax on either of my Tivo Services, not even the lifetime. They might be charging sales tax now because of the CA state deficit.
> 
> It also seems to be over charging tax on $299 @ 9.75% = $29.15


Sales tax in Alviso is 9.25% accoding to the State board of equalization web site. So $29.25 would be sales tax on $316.22! or 8.25% base CA sales tax rate on $354.55


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I live in NY and TiVo charges 8% on service and hardware. 

Thanks,


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I live in NH.


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## jmill (Feb 22, 2010)

LBCABob said:


> Just put my Premiere under Product Lifetime ($299 w/multi-unit discount). They have charged $29.25 in sales tax which surprised me. They do not charge sales tax on the $9.95 monthly fee on my other unit. They DID include $29.25 as tax on the first $9.95 monthly fee about which I complained and TiVo subsequently credited under the guise of "Customer Satisfaction" rather than an actual correction. Perhaps their system "thinks" I owe Calif sales tax on the hardware itself even though I bought it "used" on eBay from a Texas TiVo customer.
> 
> Since they billed me for a 2nd monthly $9.95 AND the Lifetime $299 (+tax), I am going to have to call TiVo to get a credit for that (and, per their policy, the 1st month's $9.95, too, since I called to switch to Lifetime within 30 days), will try to get the $29.25 reversed AGAIN.
> 
> Have other *California* customers been charged $29.25 (or similar) sales tax on their Product Lifetime purchase?


You shouldn't be charged tax on *service* in California, only on the hardware bought.

For others, here a very clear table on who's paying tax and on what:

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/31


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## LBCABob (Apr 21, 2001)

jmill said:


> You shouldn't be charged tax on *service* in California, only on the hardware bought.
> 
> For others, here a very clear table on who's paying tax and on what:
> 
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/31


Thank you so very much for this link. Confirms what I thought applied in California.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

jakerock said:


> I live in NH.


LOL....very consistent with your signature! 
Be sure to get today's Deep Thought from Jack Handey!


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## mrwendle (Mar 10, 2011)

I can actually help answer this one, since I work for a small reseller in CA.
The rules (most likely due to the deficit) have changed. How did we find out? We just went thru a state audit, and got hit with penalties. Even requested a ruling from the state tax board.

The new rule is:

If the a company has sold in the past/or is selling now the hardware that the non-tangible (software) item is to be installed on, they must charge you tax on the non-tangible (software) item. 

Example: You've bought a server from me. You buy a copy of Windows later on. I have to tax you for the copy of Windows, even if it's just a license key, because it might be installed on that server. 

Welcome to the crazy state that is California.


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

So... that means that if the Tivo box was not taxed on, then the tax is applied to the service?


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

Example: You've bought a server from me. You buy a copy of Windows later on. I have to tax you for the copy of Windows, even if it's just a license key, because it might be installed on that server. 

That is the most insane tax scheme I've heard of in a while. It presumes you don't already own a copy of software or won't choose a freeware product like Linux. What's next? Taxing people for even looking at buying gas guzzling vehicles because they might buy one?


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

dlfl said:


> LOL....very consistent with your signature!
> Be sure to get today's Deep Thought from Jack Handey!


Living in NH greatly simplifies the issues related to tax. There isn't any sales or income tax. But I've lived in states where depending on which online company you're buying from you might have to pay sales tax and it is a pita. It was always very annoying to research a product find the best price and then when all was said and done have all the effort go out the window when they revealed that they were going to charge sales tax since they had some physical presence in the state.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

restart88 said:


> Example: You've bought a server from me. You buy a copy of Windows later on. I have to tax you for the copy of Windows, even if it's just a license key, because it might be installed on that server.
> 
> That is the most insane tax scheme I've heard of in a while. It presumes you don't already own a copy of software or won't choose a freeware product like Linux. What's next? Taxing people for even looking at buying gas guzzling vehicles because they might buy one?


That example didn't say the tax for windows was charged up-front when you buy the server. It is charged when you buy Windows. If you never buy Windows, you don't pay the tax on it.

I have no idea how any of it works or is supposed to work, but when I last bought lifetime when the Premiere came out, I was not charged sales tax in California.


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## TooMuchTime (Jun 29, 2008)

> Welcome to the crazy state that is California.


Yeah. I also live in The People's Socialist Quagmire of California. Those scum running the place in Sacramento would tax you for thinking, if they could figure out how.

Now you know why California is considered the worst state for retirees.


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## LBCABob (Apr 21, 2001)

I called TiVo requesting 3 credits: $9.95 2nd month charge (duplication with Lifetime in effect); $9.95 original charge (since changed to upgraded plan within 30 days); and $29.25 sales tax included in Lifetime charge.

As is their custom, the CSR had to "escalate" the matter to another department. "Jeff" agreed I was due a credit for the $9.95 dup charge; did not think I am owed a refund on the first month's $9.95 under their 30-day change plan policy; and was clueless about the tax problem even after I referred him to their own FAQ showing they do not charge tax on the service.

So far, only the duplicate $9.95 has been refunded. My plan is to wait another few days and call again.

If *mrwendle*'s new rule applies now then why isn't TiVo charging sales tax on the monthly (and annual) fee?

*ThAbto* and *petew* are correct that the $29.25 is calculated wrong no matter what. I'm pretty sure the merchant is supposed to use the customer's local sales tax rate (9.75% in Long Beach) rather than seller's. Since TiVo transferred the original owner's complete history into my account (!), I see the equipment purchase in 2010 was $299.99 +$24.75 in Texas sales tax. Note that $299.99 x 9.75% = $29.25. Seems clear their system "sees" a hardware purchase in the billing history but no California Sales tax and is trying to "correct" the situation. So many things wrong with TiVo's billing system, hard to know where to start.

I need to research more regarding getting the original month's $9.95 refunded but am willing to concede that to TiVo if they get the tax credit issued.

In TiVo stands their ground and will not credit back the $29.25, I will dispute the credit card charge and file a complaint with the State Tax Board Consumer Advocate (all in writing).


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## SmartiePants (Jun 17, 2015)

I was charged $49.50 sales tax on purchase of $99 lifetime service. That's not right, even if they do apply 9% sales tax in my area to the $499.99 MSRP of lifetime service. According to California BOE, a third party can charge sales tax on full price of software/service, if that software/service is required to use the hardware. All around, this tax situation seems bogus.

latest sales tax FAQ is at support.tivo.com/SupportPortalArticleViewPage?artURL=/articles/FAQ/Sales-Tax-FAQ

Why does TiVo charge sales tax?

Taxes and surcharges are applied to your TiVo bill based upon rates determined by state and local laws. Prices on our website do not include sales tax. If you are purchasing from an area that charges sales tax for hardware, service, or both, you will be charged the applicable rate.

TiVo charges sales tax in the following states for hardware and/or service:

NOTE: If there is a YES in either column, Sales Tax is charged for online purchases. If a state is not listed below, this indicates it currently does not charge Sales Tax for either the hardware or service.

AGENT INSTRUCTIONS

Customer was charged monthly sales tax in a state that does not tax service

A portion of the payment for $0 down TiVo packages goes toward the hardware; therefore, in states that charge tax on hardware, the tax will show in a customer's billing history. Once the customer has fulfilled their commitment, the tax for the hardware will discontinue.

TiVo Service Gift Cards are not subject to tax. However, tax may be charged on the service plan that is activated using a gift card.

Any Special Taxing Rules are noted where applicable.

<see table on support.tivo.com/SupportPortalArticleViewPage?artURL=/articles/FAQ/Sales-Tax-FAQ

NOTE: Actual charges will vary, depending upon the particular tax, taxing authority, and the state, city, or county where you reside. The monthly charge for a $0 down promotional package is taxed as hardware for the duration of the associated commitment period.

Why is my monthly TiVo bill different than last month?

There are several possible explanations for the change in your bill:

TiVo may have been required to charge sales tax by your state, county or municipality since your last billing cycle.
The sales tax rate for your area may have increased or decreased.
For a detailed view of all charges, check your billing history from My Account. For information about logging into My Account, visit What is My Account?

Why was I charged for tax in one month, but not another?

Sales Tax charges are implemented when required by your state, county, or municipality. Tax rates may change periodically based on a business presence in your state, or because of tax laws pertaining to your area. If TiVo is required to charge sales tax in your area, you will be notified through a message on your TiVo box.​


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## Bootcamp99 (Feb 6, 2016)

Here's my letter to devote CEO Tom Rogers[email protected])

Hi Tom,

I have owned a TiVo since the very first year the company was in business. Today and over the past two months I've had some of the worst customer service experiences of any company I've done business with.

You may be able to look up my information: 

We were convinced by one of your sales people, that rather than just throw out our TiVo Premiere that we should consider buying a $99 lifetime subscription and selling it bundled with the TiVo box on eBay. I did so. 

For number of reasons it was a very poor experience and I've probably spent 3 hours on the phone with TiVo, in addition my eBay buyer is also spent considerable time on the phone with TiVo billing department.

We were not told when we purchased the $99 lifetime subscription that would actually be $126. This showed up on our credit card bill in January, and I called TiVo and asked what this additional $27 was, no one could answer the question, after about an hour I was talking to a supervisor, Jack, who was one of the rudest, most argumentative, and worst customer service people I've ever encountered on the phone. 

This flies in contrast to the really great telephone customer service that I've gotten from many Tivo customer service people over the many years I've been a customer.

Your people have now spent over an hour on the phone with me, and Jack is apparently going to pull the recordings of a few of our my telephone calls with your team, all over $18. This is called negative branding. 

I will never again recommend Tivo to anybody, as I have over the past 15 years or so, because this customer service experience was so rude and so off putting. My wife even said that she doesn't want to have anything to do with TiVo in the future. 

From a strategic standpoint, other solutions are available and becoming more available, as a company you can't afford to piss off long-standing, otherwise happy customers over $18.

I'm sending this to you, as a long-time loyal customer, so that you guys will put in the training and fix your broken obviously broken process, and address the very, very poor social skills that Jack exhibited, all so the TiVo can remain a robust company and I can continue to enjoy your services.

Please research, credit our account for $18, and send me an apology letter.

Not particularly warm regards,


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

TooMuchTime said:


> Yeah. I also live in The People's Socialist Quagmire of California. Those scum running the place in Sacramento would tax you for thinking, if they could figure out how.
> 
> Now you know why California is considered the worst state for retirees.


 Still better off then the failed Republican states of Michigan, and soon to be Wisconsin.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

LBCABob said:


> Perhaps their system "thinks" I owe Calif sales tax on the hardware itself even though I bought it "used" on eBay from a Texas TiVo customer.


Doesn't matter. If you bought it, and it's being shipped to California, you owe the Sales and Use Tax.
https://www.boe.ca.gov/sutax/usetax.htm#Personal



> Generally, if the item would have been taxable if purchased from a California retailer, it is subject to use tax.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

California taxes every breath you take so why wouldn't they tax an eBay purchase?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

They should have been told about the total of the lifetime service sale upfront and if Jack was that rude, those would be the only 2 things in TiVo's control. Having to charge CA tax on the full value of the All-in/Lifetime service versus the discounted cost would be something you should take up with your CA representative.

Scott


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Just like when you use a coupon on something, you pay sales tax on the orig price.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Even at the CA counties with the highest tax rates, that would still be fractionally _BELOW_ a full 10%. So let's presume a full 10% tax just for this exercise. Still, 10% of $99.00 is close to $10, and no where near the $26 being cited. Where is TiVo getting these numbers (?), and if one is paying a monthly rate, TiVo can only charge tax for that month.

Private phone companies in CA had been found to lable many charges at "taxes" that were, in fact, NOT TAXES. In other words they were and had set out to essentially cheat the consumer by billing for more money, but labeling some itemized charges as "taxes" so the consumer would not question the charges. Is TiVo doing the same? Is the formula incorrect in the pricing system? Incompetence?


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

While I have been charged tax on the TiVo hardware, I have never been charged any tax ever for the cost of the TiVo Service, not the two I had on monthlies, nor any of my Lifetimes, and not when I upgraded my two monthlies to Lifetime for $99 or full or multiple discount pricing. My last purchase was just months ago for the TiVo Roamio box and Lifetime service at the one-time price for $300, was it? I suppose TiVo considered the service to be FREE because they did tax me the value of $300, presumably, the retail price of the box, and was the case economically when all Mini's came with Lifetime. For financial reasons, TiVo considered the retail price for the Mini to be for the box, and they were providing Lifetime at no charge.

Such inconsistencies in taxing purchases is not uncommon, unfortunately.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

mattack said:


> Just like when you use a coupon on something, you pay sales tax on the orig price.


It's not that simple, at least in California. Manufacturer coupons are considered to lower the price of the item, so you pay sales tax on the after-coupon price. OTOH, store coupons are treated as partial payment of the full price + sales tax on the full price.

This is from the same creative folks who figured out that they could collect sales tax on the full retail price of cell phones purchased on contract, by interpreting the transaction as really a purchase at the full retail prices, with some paid at purchase time, and the rest paid as part of the monthly bill over the term of the contract.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Series3Sub said:


> While I have been charged tax on the TiVo hardware, I have never been charged any tax ever for the cost of the TiVo Service, not the two I had on monthlies, nor any of my Lifetimes, and not when I upgraded my two monthlies to Lifetime for $99 or full or multiple discount pricing. My last purchase was just months ago for the TiVo Roamio box and Lifetime service at the one-time price for $300, was it? I suppose TiVo considered the service to be FREE because they did tax me the value of $300, presumably, the retail price of the box, and was the case economically when all Mini's came with Lifetime. For financial reasons, TiVo considered the retail price for the Mini to be for the box, and they were providing Lifetime at no charge.
> 
> Such inconsistencies in taxing purchases is not uncommon, unfortunately.


Look closely at your bill. On those "Black Friday" specials the units were priced at $99 less than full amount and tax was collected on that price for the hardware (depending on location and if you have a sales tax) and lifetime is priced at $99 and only collected depending on state and local rules on services.

I find it strange that I am taxed on hardware AND extended warranty, but not lifetime service, (but guess that's why the tax code is so screwed up), and do not understand why TiVo is doing it considering they do not have any physical locations in most states, which takes away the regulation that they have to collect it. The end user is the one on the hook for it if no physical location in the state.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Sales tax is always a mess because there are so many different rates and rules. In NY you have State Sales tax (4%) and County Sales tax (variable around 4%) and what you pay each tax on is slightly different. The one that pisses me off the most is when you buy a new car and have to pay sales tax on the manufacture's rebate . I guess I am lucky and they don't make you pay sales tax on the list price.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Yeah, using my $200 best buy to purchase an item, the transaction was charging tax on the retail price, then applying the $200 discount. I didn't want to create a scene, but I was about to. Then I remembered PATIENCE, and this is how they all "stick it to you!"


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