# Best Buy to offer TVs with TiVo interface starting 7/31



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

It looks like the Best Buy TVs, Insigna brand, with the TiVo interface will be coming out the end of the month.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-07/best-buys-tivo-powered-hdtvs-launch-731/


----------



## modnar (Oct 15, 2000)

And with "no DVR capabilities" according to the article. Cool, nonetheless.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Yeah which we knew from the original announcement.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-05/best-buy-tivo-developing-non-dvr-hdtvs/

It is nice to see there will be no subscription fee though you can't assume the same would be for the Preview since in this case Best Buy is licensing the UI.


----------



## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm curious to see price points and if it interacts at all with existing Tivo units - my money is on no, because Best Buy doesn't make any money if it allows that. (that is, make any money from that one feature - certainly they'll make money off the product as a whole.) Plus, I could see Tivo not wanting it to happen because that would cannibalize sales of "bedroom units" and Tivo MAY have the Preview coming out, which would be a pretty direct competitor if streaming were enabled - we'll see on that one.

The impression I'm getting from that press release is that Best Buy viewed Tivo as nothing more than a UI design - I doubt they let Tivo touch anything "serious" about the unit.

Does anyone else think it's ironic that this is the first Tivo-involved product to be released with built-in wifi?


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Interesting. I wonder if it will be possible to stream content from a premiere box?


----------



## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

Maybe Dave should make friends with someone at Best Buy PR, since he's pretty well-known in the "Tivo press" such as it is. Sounds like he needs a new TV anyway!


----------



## MrJedi (Apr 13, 2011)

If this ends up being able to stream from a Premiere then I will get one as a 2nd TV for our basement. We have toyed with the idea of watching TV down there in the Summer, and the living room in the Winter for a few years now. This would make it easier to do so without having to buy a second TiVo.


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

MrJedi said:


> If this ends up being able to stream from a Premiere then I will get one as a 2nd TV for our basement. We have toyed with the idea of watching TV down there in the Summer, and the living room in the Winter for a few years now. This would make it easier to do so without having to buy a second TiVo.


I think it will be Video On Demand (OTT) only based on this blog post from Insignia last year.

http://community.insigniaproducts.com/t5/Make-Your-Mark-The-Insignia-Blog/LOOK-MA-NO-BOX-Insignia-TiVo-tag-team/ba-p/10436



> Basically, youll be able to access a ton of online content, like on-demand streaming movies from sites like Netflix, CinemaNow, Amazon on Demand or Blockbuster on Demand, music from sites like Pandora or Rhapsody and photos from sites like Photobucket and Picasa. All in the Hi-definition quality of an Insignia Advanced Series television! All without hooking up an extra box or messing with more than one remote! And while it doesn't have the DVR recording capabilities of the TiVo box, it gives you direct access to all of your video-on-demand offerings so you can easily watch what you want when you want it.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TheWGP said:


> Maybe Dave should make friends with someone at Best Buy PR


I wonder if they'll forgive me after raking their Twelpforce Twitter initiative over the coals? 

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-07/has-best-buys-twelpforce-already-failed/


----------



## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

davezatz said:


> I wonder if they'll forgive me after raking their Twelpforce Twitter initiative over the coals?
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-07/has-best-buys-twelpforce-already-failed/


Maybe you should tactfully offer to "reevaluate your experience" once you have the test TV... and then don't change a dang word.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> It looks like the Best Buy TVs, Insigna brand, with the TiVo interface will be coming out the end of the month.
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-07/best-buys-tivo-powered-hdtvs-launch-731/


Just two days before the collapse of the US economy, of course the stock market crash before that. No one will have jobs or money. We will all be killing each other over food and water. I think Insigna TV will be the last thing on anyone mind.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

I'm not sure what the point of having a TiVo "interface" is if there's no DVR involved, but the marketingspeak for it talks about combining the power of the internet with the something-or-the-other of the TiVo interface, so I guess that means it's going to be like the Premiere and if your internet connection is temporarily down it'll take the afternoon off.


----------



## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Well, HDTV's feel the need some type of EPG for those who are watching directly from an OTA antenna, as PSIP is still spotty in some cities and TV Guide looks like crap and Insignia (BB house brand) can get a nice looking interface to make their cheap products more desirable. Insignia needs something to compete with the likes of Sumsung, et al. who have those tons of on-line options built in the HDTV, and TiVo was probably an affordable option to access on-line content.

It is a good way to expose people to the TiVo interface and get TiVo into homes to create awareness and most likely a positive experience using TiVo as an EPG and on line content access device built in to the HDTV. This awareness and experience with the HDTV interface could very well have those consumers far more open to selecting TiVo as their DVR and on line streamer for their home even with the monthly charge, as they are likely to really like the Insignia HDTV experience. It is a smart move for both Insignia and TiVo, and TiVo needs to get into those homes to show its stuff somehow.


----------



## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

Is there a cablecard slot?


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

SugarBowl said:


> Is there a cablecard slot?


Based on that flyer/magazine thing I ran, there's no mention. I assume it'd drive up the cost and confusion. Then again a TiVo product without DVR capabilities could be confusing. But I've been hoping they'd expand for some time. A TiVo Blu-ray player would have been a safer bet, tho.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I would actually be interested in a TiVo Blu-Ray player. I don't know how well it would translate though. One of the things I have always liked about the TiVo is how well the controls feel while playing back content. I don't know if that would feel the same when playing back a disc.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> I would actually be interested in a TiVo Blu-Ray player. I don't know how well it would translate though. One of the things I have always liked about the TiVo is how well the controls feel while playing back content. I don't know if that would feel the same when playing back a disc.


It'd be nice. I owned two Toshiba TiVo/DVD combos - a consistant UI between TV and disc that was understandable, with super smooth ffw, rw, and trick play. It was so unlike the typical DVD player, loved it.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

davezatz said:


> It'd be nice. I owned two Toshiba TiVo/DVD combos - a consistant UI between TV and disc that was understandable, with super smooth ffw, rw, and trick play. It was so unlike the typical DVD player, loved it.


Even better would be a seamless ecosystem where you could add a TiVo Blu-ray player that could be streamed and played back via A Premiere. I don't know if that would be possible though, but it would eliminate the need to swap inputs and would allow you to use the player in multiple rooms. Of course you would have to remember to put the disc in first.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Interesting. I wonder if it will be possible to stream content from a premiere box?


You can already stream from a Premiere.

The more I think about it the more I think Tivo will charge for the ability to stream to subscriptionless devices.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aadam101 said:


> You can already stream from a Premiere.
> 
> The more I think about it the more I think Tivo will charge for the ability to stream to subscriptionless devices.


He is talking about using the TV to stream from the Premiere.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

davezatz said:


> It'd be nice. I owned two Toshiba TiVo/DVD combos - a consistant UI between TV and disc that was understandable, with super smooth ffw, rw, and trick play. It was so unlike the typical DVD player, loved it.


If only. Last night I was watching a Netflix Blu-ray and wanted to back up and wound it restarting the movie. Blu-ray has all those restrictions where they force you to watch promos and other stuff.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> He is talking about using the TV to stream from the Premiere.


I can't imagine why else they would want Tivo software built into a TV without a DVR.

If it doesn't allow streaming then this device will probably be their biggest failure yet.

If it does allow streaming, this could be the turnaround from Tivo that I've been waiting for.....if implemented correctly and bugs addressed in a timely manner.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

aadam101 said:


> ...if implemented correctly and bugs addressed in a timely manner.


But I thought we were talking about TiVo?


----------



## jwagner010 (Dec 8, 2007)

I would rather have a TV that is DLNA compatible which TiVo is not. They all have Netflix, Pandora,etc so I would rather go with something like a Sony with these streaming services and DLNA compability.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aadam101 said:


> I can't imagine why else they would want Tivo software built into a TV without a DVR.
> 
> If it doesn't allow streaming then this device will probably be their biggest failure yet.
> 
> If it does allow streaming, this could be the turnaround from Tivo that I've been waiting for.....if implemented correctly and bugs addressed in a timely manner.


It isn't a TiVo device.

It is an Insignia TV by Best Buy that is using the app portion of TiVo along with the integrated search to offer something similar to what every other manufacturer offers on their TV.

Best Buy probably doesn't have an in house development team to develop apps or the software base to allow apps for their TV so this allows them to offer what every other TV on the market now offers such as Netflix, Pandora, Hulu, and Cinema Now while also offering the TiVo integrated search so you don't have to go from app to app.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> It isn't a TiVo device.
> 
> It is an Insignia TV by Best Buy that is using the app portion of TiVo along with the integrated search to offer something similar to what every other manufacturer offers on their TV.
> 
> Best Buy probably doesn't have an in house development team to develop apps or the software base to allow apps for their TV so this allows them to offer what every other TV on the market now offers such as Netflix, Pandora, Hulu, and Cinema Now while also offering the TiVo integrated search so you don't have to go from app to app.


So you don't believe streaming will be offered to these TV's?

If so, I think Tivo is going to suffer an identity crisis. People with these TV's are going to go around telling people they "have a Tivo" when they don't. One of Tivo's biggest problems from day one is that most people have no idea what it is. A DVR-less Tivo will only add to that problem.

I honestly think this TV is a good idea. I really hope it works out.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aadam101 said:


> So you don't believe streaming will be offered to these TV's?
> 
> If so, I think Tivo is going to suffer an identity crisis. People with these TV's are going to go around telling people they "have a Tivo" when they don't. One of Tivo's biggest problems from day one is that most people have no idea what it is. A DVR-less Tivo will only add to that problem.
> 
> I honestly think this TV is a good idea. I really hope it works out.


They could, but it is tough to say. It might be something they could add later possibly once streaming is officially out. Also we don't know which built in WiFi it has. If it isn't fast enough it may not be able to stream HD from the Premiere.

The problem with this TV will be the same problem with every smart TV. You won't use the smart portion of it. People will buy it thinking cool I can watch Netflix from my TV but rarely use it because they end up using their cable box remote to control the TV.

My Panasonic can do all sorts of things, but I never use it this way because I use the Slide Remote to control the TV.


----------



## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

If this thing has guide data I am going to be very upset.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> They could, but it is tough to say. It might be something they could add later possibly once streaming is officially out. Also we don't know which built in WiFi it has. If it isn't fast enough it may not be able to stream HD from the Premiere.
> 
> The problem with this TV will be the same problem with every smart TV. You won't use the smart portion of it. People will buy it thinking cool I can watch Netflix from my TV but rarely use it because they end up using their cable box remote to control the TV.
> 
> My Panasonic can do all sorts of things, but I never use it this way because I use the Slide Remote to control the TV.


I hear you. We have a Smart TV too. It's only compatible with a small handful of wifi adapters and I never bothered to buy it. I have several incompatible ones just sitting around the house. The TV just doesn't do anything that my other devices don't do.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> I can't imagine why else they would want Tivo software built into a TV without a DVR.


Why? 
because what's the one thing Tivo has done for 10+ years better than any other company with a DVR? A: their UI, Tivo has always been a shining star with their UI design, face it, 90% of a Tivo is the same as a cable company DVR, what's the biggest difference? the UI and UI logic.
I think this is a great idea, replace a crappy TV UI with a well designed Tivo UI.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Well designed 10 years ago for SD yes - for HD now, not so much.

If this thing can't stream from other Tivos, I don't see the point other than marketing.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

seattlewendell said:


> If this thing has guide data I am going to be very upset.


Why? Because those of us with DVRs have to pay? 
Assuming this TV will have guide data, it won't need 14 days worth. It only needs one days worth. 
And don't worry. I'm sure the cost of having TiVo features on this TV is rolled into the MSRP.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Have there been any specs released yet? I'd be curious if there's an eSATA port.
This TV would stand out if you could connect a WD Expander drive, subscribe to the TiVo Service (of course), and instantly have a DVR.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> If this thing can't stream from other Tivos, I don't see the point other than marketing.


Partial marketing and the fact that currently iirc none of the Insignias have any apps on them. As mentioned this would allow them to add that check mark when comparing the TV against similar priced sets.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> Why?
> because what's the one thing Tivo has done for 10+ years better than any other company with a DVR? A: their UI, Tivo has always been a shining star with their UI design, face it, 90% of a Tivo is the same as a cable company DVR, what's the biggest difference? the UI and UI logic.
> I think this is a great idea, replace a crappy TV UI with a well designed Tivo UI.


It could also lead to a subtle shift in the language. "TiVo" was well on its way to being a verb meaning "to record via means of a DVR", but then there was the constant bombardment of cable and satellite ads pushing "DVR"s, with nary a whisper of the "T" word.

This could lead to "I've got TiVo" meaning "I, in some fashion, with the assistance of some piece of consumer electronics gear, have the TiVo service", leaving those of us here to say "I have _*a*_ TiVo".


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

unitron said:


> It could also lead to a subtle shift in the language. "TiVo" was well on its way to being a verb meaning "to record via means of a DVR", but then there was the constant bombardment of cable and satellite ads pushing "DVR"s, with nary a whisper of the "T" word.
> 
> This could lead to "I've got TiVo" meaning "I, in some fashion, with the assistance of some piece of consumer electronics gear, have the TiVo service", leaving those of us here to say "I have _*a*_ TiVo".


Exactly. If Tivo doesn't give this TV some kind of DVR capability then the entire name Tivo now means something else. Is this really what Tivo wants? They went from being a premium product to junk software on low end TV's? Seems like a strange move but I guess that's what we have grown to expect from this management team.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I predict many customers will buy the TV thinking it contains a DVR and when they find out it doesn't have a DVR they will angrily return the TV claiming Best Buy is ripping them off. I wonder how many support calls Tivo will get because the TV isn't recording a show. I can't wait to read the threads from angry customers who will post in this forum to complain.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> I predict many customers will buy the TV thinking it contains a DVR and when they find out it doesn't have a DVR they will angrily return the TV claiming Best Buy is ripping them off. I wonder how many support calls Tivo will get because the TV isn't recording a show. I can't wait to read the threads from angry customers who will post in this forum to complain.


I wonder how many people have learned just enough about TiVo to decide they don't want to buy a TV that won't work unless they make a monthly subscription payment?


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

shwru980r said:


> I predict many customers will buy the TV thinking it contains a DVR and when they find out it doesn't have a DVR they will angrily return the TV claiming Best Buy is ripping them off. I wonder how many support calls Tivo will get because the TV isn't recording a show. I can't wait to read the threads from angry customers who will post in this forum to complain.


It will all depend on how Best Buy advertises it. I don't see Best Buy advertising their own product in a way that will mislead customers so that they have to deal with returns.

If they call TiVo, I am pretty sure TiVo will tell them to call Best Buy/Insignia since once again it isn't a TiVo product. I would guess the Best Buy advertising will be clear on this and not say TiVo inside, but something more along the lines of featuring Netflix and Cinema Now powered by TiVo Search/Design.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> I predict many customers will buy the TV thinking it contains a DVR and when they find out it doesn't have a DVR they will angrily return the TV claiming Best Buy is ripping them off. I wonder how many support calls Tivo will get because the TV isn't recording a show. I can't wait to read the threads from angry customers who will post in this forum to complain.


I agree. This will be a disaster unless it has a built-in DVR, or TiVo is planing a TiVocloud DVR. Let say one TB of lifetime cloud service for $399.00. Each recorded show is kept for 30 days. After 30 days the show is remove from the cloud. You can also view your TiVocloud recorded show on your iPad from anywhere there is a WiFi connection.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> It will all depend on how Best Buy advertises it. I don't see Best Buy advertising their own product in a way that will mislead customers so that they have to deal with returns.
> 
> If they call TiVo, I am pretty sure TiVo will tell them to call Best Buy/Insignia since once again it isn't a TiVo product. I would guess the Best Buy advertising will be clear on this and not say TiVo inside, but something more along the lines of featuring Netflix and Cinema Now powered by TiVo Search/Design.


Which of course will have a bunch of people wanting to know "What in the bleeping #&*%@! does 'powered by TiVo Search' mean?".

At the moment "TiVo" has *a* meaning. Give it another or three and it won't have any.


----------



## jwagner010 (Dec 8, 2007)

If Best Buy is using this just to get the limited number of Apps TiVo offers on their TV they need their heads examined. An intern could develop these limited number of TiVo Apps. Every other notable TV brand out there today has more Apps than TiVo already and have open standards like DLNA compatability. There must be more than Apps like streaming otherwise the management team at Best Buy make the management team at TiVo look like geniuses and that's saying something.


----------



## atomicbottom (Jun 17, 2006)

davezatz said:


> Based on that flyer/magazine thing I ran, there's no mention. I assume it'd drive up the cost and confusion. Then again a TiVo product without DVR capabilities could be confusing. But I've been hoping they'd expand for some time. A TiVo Blu-ray player would have been a safer bet, tho.


I am a bit confused (or maybe just ignorant of how the non-Tivo world lives). For people that receive their TV input from cable, what good would a Tivo interface be without a cable card to allow you to actually tune the station? TV with an IR blaster input to the set top box??


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

atomicbottom said:


> I am a bit confused (or maybe just ignorant of how the non-Tivo world lives). For people that receive their TV input from cable, what good would a Tivo interface be without a cable card to allow you to actually tune the station? TV with an IR blaster input to the set top box??


It's independent of the TV service. It's basically just like any other "smart TV" with built-in applications nowadays. TVs and other devices are starting to have built-in apps to stream Netflix, Hulu, etc. Best Buy is opting for as stripped down version of the Tivo interface rather than make their own.

It's a viable option if the user doesn't have a better way to access these services. Cable companies don't offer things like Netflix or Hulu from their boxes because they compete with their own VOD service. So TV and blu-ray manufacturers are building them in.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> It's independent of the TV service. It's basically just like any other "smart TV" with built-in applications nowadays. TVs and other devices are starting to have built-in apps to stream Netflix, Hulu, etc. Best Buy is opting for as stripped down version of the Tivo interface rather than make their own.
> 
> It's a viable option if the user doesn't have a better way to access these services. Cable companies don't offer things like Netflix or Hulu from their boxes because they compete with their own VOD service. So TV and blu-ray manufacturers are building them in.


So Tivo has gone out of their way to brand themselves as a "one box" solution and then they license their software in a way that couldn't possibly work with only "one box" since people will still have to use their cable box?

The only thing Tivo has been consistently good at it marketing. I think we have a problem.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

steve614 said:


> Have there been any specs released yet? I'd be curious if there's an eSATA port.


No public details other than what I've turned up so far. Given it's WiFi capabilities, we could learn more from the FCC database... BUT it wasn't filed by "tivo" "best buy" or "insignia" and we don't know who they outsourced manufacturing to. Regardless, we'll obviously learn more within the next couple weeks.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

aadam101 said:


> So Tivo has gone out of their way to brand themselves as a "one box" solution and then they license their software in a way that couldn't possibly work with only "one box" since people will still have to use their cable box?
> 
> The only thing Tivo has been consistently good at it marketing. I think we have a problem.


Yep, basically. But I don't know... If their marketing initiatives had been effective, they wouldn't have lost 25% of their (tivo-owned) subs in the last 3 years. There's definitely a problem, but I don't think this is it. I think they need to rebrand themselves as a modern and relevant company... Don't know if this will help, but whatever they were doing before wasn't really working.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aadam101 said:


> So Tivo has gone out of their way to brand themselves as a "one box" solution and then they license their software in a way that couldn't possibly work with only "one box" since people will still have to use their cable box?
> 
> The only thing Tivo has been consistently good at it marketing. I think we have a problem.


My guess is TiVo is doing this as a way to get their UI in the face of customers who may not have considered a TiVo. They not only get licensing fees from Insignia/Best Buy, they get additional marketing whenever Best Buy pushes the TV since they will more than likely mention TiVo, and they potentially get more eyeballs on what TiVo can do.

One of the points people have always said on here is TiVo is easier to sell to someone when they get a hands on. This is a way to introduce potential new customers to the UI, the TiVo search, and also possibly getting them to consider TiVo over their cable DVR after seeing some of what TiVo can do. It is pretty much free marketing for TiVo and they are more than likely being paid to do it. Consider now when you go in Best Buy any of these TVs will more than likely have the TiVo interface up and running for people to try. You will see the TiVo logo in more places.

Also consider the other TV manufacturers who don't do in house app development who may see what TiVo has done and could license the TiVo software for their TVs.

The TiVo Premiere was advertised as One Box, not TiVo the company.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yep, basically. But I don't know... If their marketing initiatives had been effective, they wouldn't have lost 25% of their (tivo-owned) subs in the last 3 years.


They didn't _lose_ subs because of marketing. They lost subs because the product has not lived up to it's potential and Tivo can't find a pricing structure that works which is why its completely overhauled over and over again.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> You will see the TiVo logo in more places.


What does that mean? People are going to think they have a Tivo when they don't. Since it's inception Tivo has always been a DVR (that did other things). Now they are turning it into a product that "does other things" without a DVR.

This seems like yet another way of Tivo getting a logo put on a box. That's all they have cared about for years.

I look forward to seeing this product in action. It might even get me to step foot inside a Best Buy.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

I think it's a very smart idea for them to expand their branding, especially since they're not exactly burning down the house with their current retail DVR market penetration and subscriber loss.
I really see "with GUI powered by Tivo" or a similar phrase being very helpful to help get people aware of how good the Tivo GUI is and potentially get those new users in Tivo DVRs.

If you add in the possibility of this being the baby steps in getting the ability to stream from a Premiere to a Tivo powered TV, heck, that's a spectacular secondary market.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

aadam101 said:


> They didn't _lose_ subs because of marketing. They lost subs because the product has not lived up to it's potential and Tivo can't find a pricing structure that works which is why its completely overhauled over and over again.


Point being, they don't market. Practically at all. Virtually nobody knows they even exist anymore and that most definitely kills subs. The things you mention impact subs too, yes.


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> My guess is TiVo is doing this as a way to get their UI in the face of customers who may not have considered a TiVo. They not only get licensing fees from Insignia/Best Buy, they get additional marketing whenever Best Buy pushes the TV since they will more than likely mention TiVo, and they potentially get more eyeballs on what TiVo can do.
> 
> One of the points people have always said on here is TiVo is easier to sell to someone when they get a hands on. This is a way to introduce potential new customers to the UI, the TiVo search, and also possibly getting them to consider TiVo over their cable DVR after seeing some of what TiVo can do. It is pretty much free marketing for TiVo and they are more than likely being paid to do it. Consider now when you go in Best Buy any of these TVs will more than likely have the TiVo interface up and running for people to try. You will see the TiVo logo in more places.
> 
> ...


InnocentFreak, I think you've made the best argument for the Best Buy TiVo. The device is obviously not targeted at people who read TCF. Its targeted at people who may have considered a Roku or ATV to provide OTT services. A buyer essentially gets the TiVo interface with support for these video-on-demand streaming services without the need for an additional box. It appears the targeted customers would have a traditional cable STB connected to this TV that does not support OTT or no cable box at all.


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> I think it's a very smart idea for them to expand their branding, especially since they're not exactly burning down the house with their current retail DVR market penetration and subscriber loss.
> I really see "with GUI powered by Tivo" or a similar phrase being very helpful to help get people aware of how good the Tivo GUI is and potentially get those new users in Tivo DVRs.
> 
> If you add in the possibility of this being the baby steps in getting the ability to stream from a Premiere to a Tivo powered TV, heck, that's a spectacular secondary market.


Agree completely. The TiVo User Experience is still one of the best available on the market. It does not currently compare to the ATV for OTT servcies but ATV is not available integrated inside a TV at this point and only support Netflix.


----------



## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

Johncv said:


> Just two days before the collapse of the US economy, of course the stock market crash before that. No one will have jobs or money. We will all be killing each other over food and water. I think Insigna TV will be the last thing on anyone mind.


And besides that, everyone will have cancelled their Netflix because of the recent price increase!


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> I think it's a very smart idea for them to expand their branding, especially since they're not exactly burning down the house with their current retail DVR market penetration and subscriber loss.
> I really see "with GUI powered by Tivo" or a similar phrase being very helpful to help get people aware of how good the Tivo GUI is and potentially get those new users in Tivo DVRs.
> 
> If you add in the possibility of this being the baby steps in getting the ability to stream from a Premiere to a Tivo powered TV, heck, that's a spectacular secondary market.


if it has the current Netflix interface found on the premiere then it will not go well. TiVo puts a lot of stock in this integrated search as if people are always searching for specific things to watch. Many times in my house the Netflix interface is brought up simply to look around for something to watch we had not really thought of yet. Graphical is how a TV is used and going to a command line type of integrated search is going backwards


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

The Worst of Tivo. Now on your TV!

That's how I perceive it. 

Maybe internet streaming on other TVs isn't too good though. And Tivo on the TV will look good in comparison. And there is always the chance they improve what is found on the Premiere.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> The Worst of Tivo. Now on your TV!


I think you just described it very well. I often see the argument being made that TiVo does very well as a DVR and very poorly at most other things. Why they would think it's a good idea to separate the worst part from the core product baffles me.

Can you imagine the first time people see the TiVo Netflix app? How embarrassing for both TiVo and Best Buy.


----------



## yoheidiho (Mar 31, 2011)

trip1eX said:


> The Worst of Tivo. Now on your TV!


X2


----------



## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

aadam101 said:


> I think you just described it very well. I often see the argument being made that TiVo does very well as a DVR and very poorly at most other things. Why they would think it's a good idea to separate the worst part from the core product baffles me.
> 
> Can you imagine the first time people see the TiVo Netflix app? How embarrassing for both TiVo and Best Buy.


Netflix too....


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> I think you just described it very well. I often see the argument being made that TiVo does very well as a DVR and very poorly at most other things. Why they would think it's a good idea to separate the worst part from the core product baffles me.
> 
> Can you imagine the first time people see the TiVo Netflix app? How embarrassing for both TiVo and Best Buy.


Not if it was last night. Netflix on TiVo was one of the few deivices working with Netflix last night. It wasn't working on Xbox 360's, PS3s, Boxee Boxes, and other device. But it was still working perfectly on TiVos.

Even though the TiVo Netflix app is old, it has been the most reliable recently. the last few time netflxi went down on other devices, it was still working on TiVo.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

I imagine Netflix downtime is somewhere in the vicinity of .0001%. I don't know how that will help Tivo.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> I imagine Netflix downtime is somewhere in the vicinity of .0001%. I don't know how that will help Tivo.


I don't know what their downtime is but it's been down alot over the last few months. Certainly much higher than what you listed .


----------



## HarryD (Jan 10, 2002)

Anyone know who makes the Insigna TV's for BB??


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

HarryD said:


> Anyone know who makes the Insigna TV's for BB??


Google seems to suggest multiple manufacturers and/or distributors. I'm still digging for more details...


----------



## MrJedi (Apr 13, 2011)

HarryD said:


> Anyone know who makes the Insigna TV's for BB??


From what I have found in the past there are multiple and it depends on each model. Some will have a Panasonic panel and a Sony board and vice versa. The same is true for Dynex, Westinghouse, Emerson, and any other discount brand. There are only a few manufacturers of LCD/LED/Plasma panels. If I understand correctly the board manufacturer can be determined by the remote codes it uses (I had a Dynex that used Samsung codes).

So for this particular tv it will be a wait and see kind of thing. Sometimes reviewers will post what panels and board is being used, but most of the discount brands rarely get a full review. I think most sites will do a write-up of this TV simply because of it's unique feature set.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

MrJedi said:


> Some will have a Panasonic panel and a Sony board and vice versa.


As far as getting a jump on the official announcement and release, a possible FCC filing would be based on the manufacturer of the set itself, versus the manufacturer of component parts. As a consumer, I'd hope the panel is top notch or at least decent. As a blogger, I'm more interested in who assembled the kit.


----------



## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

I certainly would hope that it boots quicker than a Tivo


----------



## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

So now Insignia will have a crappy Netflix interface too.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

KungFuCow said:


> So now Insignia will have a crappy Netflix interface too.


Because there is no DVR in the TV the Netflix interface may be much better, not that i have had any problems with that interface on my TPs. The TV could use faster chips, some memory for cache, who knows, but without the concern of all the DVR functions we all may be surprised on how fast the interface works. Boot up time should no slower than any LCD TV.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

The TV may not even have the Netflix app as an option and titles may only be available through searching.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

lessd said:


> Because there is no DVR in the TV the Netflix interface may be much better,


They are gonna build a whole new interface for the TV and not the Tivo? That's very doubtful.


----------



## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

lessd said:


> Because there is no DVR in the TV the Netflix interface may be much better, not that i have had any problems with that interface on my TPs. The TV could use faster chips, some memory for cache, who knows, but without the concern of all the DVR functions we all may be surprised on how fast the interface works. Boot up time should no slower than any LCD TV.


This could be true but every device I own has a way better Netflix interface than Tivo. WD Live Plus, Roku and Boxee all own Tivo in the Netflix department.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aadam101 said:


> They are gonna build a whole new interface for the TV and not the Tivo? That's very doubtful.


It might. Until someone can track down the details we don't know what type of chipset the TV has. It might not be running a flashbased version of the UI.

It could also be a new Netflix UI that we eventually will see like the HD Guide in the Virgin TiVo.


----------



## mktc1985 (Sep 16, 2010)

This is exciting to me because I have Directv and would love to have the premiere interface but I was wondering if they may eventually make a standalone box with premiere without the dvr of course so you don't have to get a Insignia tv. I know LG does this, they have a smart tv box that can be used on any tv but its the UI that's on there smart tv LG tv's.


----------



## jctivo (Jan 17, 2005)

I'm looking to buy a new tv and of course the Costco sale runs out this week on a Sharp tv. Are we sure this won't stream tivo from another tivo? That would make this insignia tv much more appealing.


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

jctivo said:


> I'm looking to buy a new tv and of course the Costco sale runs out this week on a Sharp tv. Are we sure this won't stream tivo from another tivo? That would make this insignia tv much more appealing.


We have no idea at this point whether it will stream from TiVo Premieres. My guess is that it will not. Further we know TiVo has not made any official announcements at this point with respect to streaming on the TiVo Premiere retail platform. More details should emerge in the next few weeks.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

jctivo said:


> I'm looking to buy a new tv and of course the Costco sale runs out this week on a Sharp tv. Are we sure this won't stream tivo from another tivo? That would make this insignia tv much more appealing.


This will most likely get released without streaming. Then Tivo will announce that streaming is "coming soon". A year after that Tivo will ask customers if they still want streaming.........and customers will continue to wait.

I am pretty sure this is written into their business plan.


----------



## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

aadam101 said:


> This will most likely get released without streaming.


I think you guys are hitting on something. We've already had confirmation that streaming from a Premiere is already happening. We know the Premiere Q and the other non-dvr based box is coming. Now with the Tivo interface in the TV, there is no connection between the DVR and the TV. You simply stream from the Tivo to the TV. Voila! That's how Tivo gets in a lot more people's faces and probably how they may end up selling more DVR's.


----------



## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

jtreid said:


> I think you guys are hitting on something. We've already had confirmation that streaming from a Premiere is already happening. We know the Premiere Q and the other non-dvr based box is coming. Now with the Tivo interface in the TV, there is no connection between the DVR and the TV. You simply stream from the Tivo to the TV. Voila! That's how Tivo gets in a lot more people's faces and probably how they may end up selling more DVR's.


Agreed -- I think it has to be able to stream from other Tivo's for this to be a viable product. It would certainly boost sales of the Premiere, and give Best Buy a real reason to push Tivo in their stores in order to demonstrate the TV's features. (I am assuming it would stream for free.... so if Tivo decides to charge subscription fees on the Tivo/Insignia side for receiving streaming -- then the whole concept is dead in the water) Of course this is just my conjecture and not based on any source information --we'll know for sure on or around July 31.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

sbiller said:


> We have no idea at this point whether it will stream from TiVo Premieres. My guess is that it will not.


My guess is that it will -- I think it's fairly worthless if it doesn't. But yeah, we don't know yet.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> My guess is that it will -- I think it's fairly worthless if it doesn't. But yeah, we don't know yet.


You are making that guess because it's a logical one. Nobody can accuse Tivo of being logical.

Plus I would be pretty upset if I bought a TV and then found out it was merely am accessory to a TiVo. I might go out and buy a new TiVo anyway and then unless I have another HDTV in the house I still wasted money.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

unitron said:


> I'm not sure what the point of having a TiVo "interface" is if there's no DVR involved


:up::up:

Bleaych, if you ask me. One of the top 3 best things about the TiVo is the fact one almost never needs to use the interface - any interface - at all. Building a device that has the UI but no DVR functions is like throwing out the baby and keeping the bath water.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

SugarBowl said:


> Is there a cablecard slot?


I can hardly imagine there wouldn't be.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

If the TV can stream from a Premiere, then I think that will require the TV be registered on an active Tivo account and restricted to the Premieres on that account. I don't think Tivo will provide this service for free. I think most people buying an Insignia TV are looking for the lowest price point and are less likely to want an extra monthly fee.

Tivo is perceived as a high end consumer electronics product while Insignia is perceived as a budget product. I question how many Tivo users would stoop to owning an Insignia TV, even if it does stream from a Premiere. Maybe they would pick up an insignia TV as a second TV for the bedroom.

If the TV is completely divorced from any DVR functionality, then the Tivo interface is just a gimmick and will confuse and frustrate customers who associate Tivo with a DVR.

If the TV can stream from a Premiere, then there likely will be an extra monthly fee for the service. Insignia is a budget priced product with customers who are less likely to want an additional monthly fee. High end consumers may not even consider an Insignia TV because of the perceived budget status.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Maybe just maybe......they are just looking to show off some sales numbers. By selling these low end TV's, Tivo can turn around and say we sold "X" amount of TV's with Tivo software and then it might look more attractive to other higher end TV manufacturers. Out of all of the "Smart TV's" I have seen none of them had interfaces that impressed me much.


----------



## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

maybe the iphone/ipad apps will be able to control the TV power and volume on these TV's ?


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> I question how many Tivo users would stoop to owning an Insignia TV, even if it does stream from a Premiere. Maybe they would pick up an insignia TV as a second TV for the bedroom.
> 
> If the TV can stream from a Premiere, then there likely will be an extra monthly fee for the service. Insignia is a budget priced product with customers who are less likely to want an additional monthly fee. High end consumers may not even consider an Insignia TV because of the perceived budget status.


These Insignia tvs with Tivo built in are exactly the type of tv a tivo user would want for secondary rooms. Bedroom, kitchen, workout room. ESPECIALLY if they can natively stream from a Premiere without additional hardware. I would even consider replacing 3 of our current tvs in the house if this is what they have in mind. Essentially a tv with the upcomming tivo extender box built in. For live tv it can use a cable box or stream from the Premiere. A household should only need one Premiere box, and several clients.

If one does not have a Tivo in the house, the tv will do mostly what all other internet connectable TVs on the market do now. Live tv and stream from various internet sources set up for that. Tivo has the inroads here to make the integrated tivo interface a notch up from the competitors and a REASON to add a tivo to households that don't currently have one.

As for subscription costs for tivo extenders...I think there likely will be one, but it better be small. Say an additional $2 a month or $50 lifetime. Would be better if the licence costs were just included in the price of the devices.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

jcthorne said:


> ... Tivo has the inroads here to make the integrated tivo interface a notch up from the competitors and a REASON to add a tivo to households that don't currently have one...


That would be smart and make sense.

I don't hold out any hope for them choosing that particular path.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Well I see problems with increasing the cost of the TV to include streaming from a TiVo: makes the TV cost to much for people who don't want or don't know they want streaming from a TiVo so it reduces sales. 

I also see problems with subscription fees: they would have to be fairly low and most would bit** like he** about them. 

I could see a one time "activation" fee but it would have to be low, something less than $50. 

Thanks,


----------



## jtso (Oct 2, 2009)

I was in a Best Buy yesterday just looking and comparing the different brands of flat-screen TVs, thinking about how I could use a 32" or 42" TiVo Insignia TV in my home. I have a Premiere that is connected to our large Samsung TV/entertainment center in the living room, and an HDXL connected to a smaller TV in my home office. They are all connected via my home WiFi network. Where I could use the TiVo Insiginia might be in the kitchen or bedroom. 

Firstly, I wonder if a lot of people have a set-up similar to mine, where in TiVo households, the largest TVs already have a TiVo attached to them. So, for me, the 42" size makes no sense, and even the 32" size would possibly make sense only in the bedroom. A 24" size would be much more useful in the kitchen. Sigh...

Secondly, I'm not particularly impressed with Insignia as a brand. I owned a small Insignia several years ago for the bedroom, and got rid of it after a year because it sounded bad and I couldn't get the picture quality as sharp as I wanted. I replaced it with a Samsung and couldn't be happier. What I saw yesterday is that Insignias look to be better made these days, but if it wasn't for the TiVo aspect, I would rather buy a different brand. If I just wanted internet connectivity with Netflix and the like, there are certainly many choices.

Thirdly, I store some of my TiVo shows on an external hard drive attached to my computer, using pyTiVoX and kmttg to move shows around. If the Insignias can't join the party via streaming from the Premiere or Streambaby or something like that, then they are of no use to me.

So after being initially excited about the Tivo - Best Buy partnership, what I've heard so far about what is coming is a let-down. However, the new Insignias are not actually out yet, it's still early in the game, and maybe the pyTiVo and kmttg people can figure something out. The TiVo Preview, if they make a retail version, might be what I need.


----------



## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

I wish they had these out a few months ago. I just helped my mother, who's in her 80's, buy a second TV for her bedroom. She doesn't really need a Tivo in that room because she watches live TV, but having the guide data would be nice.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

javabird said:


> I wish they had these out a few months ago. I just helped my mother, who's in her 80's, buy a second TV for her bedroom. She doesn't really need a Tivo in that room because she watches live TV, but having the guide data would be nice.


Do we know guide data is included? I pay for my guide data. They are just gonna give it away on these low end TV's? That's not going to sit well.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

aadam101 said:


> Do we know guide data is included? I pay for my guide data. They are just gonna give it away on these low end TV's? That's not going to sit well.


If they give away the guide data, then I suspect that it would be limited no more than 3 days like the Basic Tivo service.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

aadam101 said:


> Maybe just maybe......they are just looking to show off some sales numbers. By selling these low end TV's, Tivo can turn around and say we sold "X" amount of TV's with Tivo software and then it might look more attractive to other higher end TV manufacturers. Out of all of the "Smart TV's" I have seen none of them had interfaces that impressed me much.


Or maybe just maybe......Insignia is looking to boost sales of their TVs and are willing to pay TiVo enough to convince them to allow Insignia to use their software.

And maybe just maybe.....TiVo thinks it would be good advertising.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> If they give away the guide data, then I suspect that it would be limited no more than 3 days like the Basic Tivo service.


What good would more than a few hours do on a TV with no DVR?


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> What good would more than a few hours do on a TV with no DVR?


I guess the same as it does on any TV without a DVR that has guide data. It lets you setup reminders to watch your shows and view what's coming on later in the week.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> And maybe just maybe.....TiVo thinks it would be good advertising.


What are they advertising though. This TV is not a "Tivo".

If Microsoft developed software for a microwave and called it "Windows" would that mean it's a PC? How would that help Microsoft? It would just confuse people.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

aadam101 said:


> I pay for my guide data.


No you don't. You pay for the TiVo service, which includes guide data.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> What are they advertising though. This TV is not a "Tivo".
> 
> *If Microsoft developed software for a microwave and called it "Windows" would that mean it's a PC?* How would that help Microsoft? It would just confuse people.


Like "Windows 7 phone"? or Embedded Windows? or Windows CE?
They are quite guilty of exactly this over in Redmond in the past 10 years.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> Like "Windows 7 phone"? or Embedded Windows? or Windows CE?
> They are quite guilty of exactly this over in Redmond in the past 10 years.


I agree. Look at what a huge failure Microsoft has been in the smart phone market. I think they are just finally getting a bit of traction but they are still WAY behind the competition.

At least Microsoft didn't just call it "Windows". They gave each product a specific name so that a person wouldn't think they were getting the same Windows that they had at home on their PC. I have yet to see any evidence that Tivo has done this. If they are just going to call it a TV with Tivo they are going to cause a lot of confusion.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

aadam101 said:


> What are they advertising though. This TV is not a "Tivo".
> 
> If Microsoft developed software for a microwave and called it "Windows" would that mean it's a PC? How would that help Microsoft?


If at any point during normal operation the word "TiVo" is clearly displayed on the screen, it constitutes advertising. It will put the word "TiVo" into the user's mind, giving them an emotional response to the term. Such messages are very powerful. They don't even have to be displayed in a way the user can see for this to work. Messages can be implanted subliminally by flashing them on the screen too quickly for the conscious mind to intercept. Doing so is illegal, however. To work around this, many advertisers deliberately make commercials essentially unwatchable. They want the consumer to not pay any attention to the commercial, so that the product name is embedded in the subconscious, where the familiarity with the name acts at an emotional level, rather than a rational one.

BTW, all recognition is an emotional response, contrary to what one might think. The ability to recognize and manipulate symbols such as mathematical symbols requires, oddly enough, an emotional response. If a person's brain is damaged in certain specific ways that preclude emotional responses, it can prevent the person from being able to recognize friends, family, and close acquaintances. It can also prevent them from doing math.



aadam101 said:


> It would just confuse people.


Confusing people is what most advertising is supposed to do. The less people think and the more they buy on impulse, the better the people who advertise like it. No one would ever buy a Rolex, for example, if doing so were based upon a rational decision.


----------



## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> Well I see problems with increasing the cost of the TV to include streaming from a TiVo: makes the TV cost to much for people who don't want or don't know they want streaming from a TiVo so it reduces sales.
> 
> I also see problems with subscription fees: they would have to be fairly low and most would bit** like he** about them.
> 
> ...


Maybe...just maybe...tivo factored this "free streaming" via insignia sets into the latest tivo service price restructuring (ie. Price Increase). I could see best buy pushing bundled package deals of insignia tivo sets and tivo premiers...then tivo gets the revenue stream from the premier without worrying about charging on the tv side.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> If at any point during normal operation the word "TiVo" is clearly displayed on the screen, it constitutes advertising.


It's not helpful unless a person knows what a Tivo is. If Kleenex decided to slap their name on a bottle of Windex would that be considered advertising? I guess so. How effective would it be?


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> What good would more than a few hours do on a TV with no DVR?


I think it would be a good idea to have extra guide data in case the TV can't connect periodically to retrieve new guide data.

I think there would be many support calls and returned TVs, if only a few hours of guide data are downloaded at one time and the TV has to connect for new data every few hours.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> Confusing people is what most advertising is supposed to do. The less people think and the more they buy on impulse, the better the people who advertise like it. No one would ever buy a Rolex, for example, if doing so were based upon a rational decision.


I think this will go beyond confusion and the customer will feel deceived when they buy a Tivo TV and it doesn't record shows. I think there might be a high return rate on these TVs.


----------



## sirfergy (May 18, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> Like "Windows 7 phone"? or Embedded Windows? or Windows CE?
> They are quite guilty of exactly this over in Redmond in the past 10 years.


Slight correction, it's Windows Phone 7.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

sirfergy said:


> Slight correction, it's Windows Phone 7.


Now that's really stupid. Windows 7 phone sounds like a phone that runs a version of Windows 7.

Windows Phone 7? Where there 6 previous versions of Windows phones already?


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

unitron said:


> Where there 6 previous versions of Windows phones already?


Where? Here.

Windows Mobile


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

SullyND said:


> Where? Here.
> 
> Windows Mobile


And of course that should have been "Were there..."

That's what I get for not using "preview".


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> I think this will go beyond confusion and the customer will feel deceived when they buy a Tivo TV and it doesn't record shows. I think there might be a high return rate on these TVs.


I think you might have a point, there.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

SullyND said:


> Where? Here.
> 
> Windows Mobile


I had a Windows 5 and several version of Windows 6.x. Lots of people never knew these phones existed. Microsoft just couldn't get their act together.

This phone always has been and always will be my favorite Windows phone despite the crappy software.










I think they finally have a good product with Windows Phone 7 (which is a confusing name) but they have done some heavy marketing so people can understand what the phone is. I doubt this will happen with Tivo.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-07/best-buy-insignia-tivo-hdtv/


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-07/best-buy-insignia-tivo-hdtv/


We should at least tempt folks with some packaging...


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I don't see people getting confused by TiVo design on the packaging as some in this thread thought might happen.


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Thinking out loud I see two options for my new bedroom TV going forward. I don't really need a DVR in my bedroom especially if I can stream from my living room TiVo.

Option 1 is to buy this Insignia TV and connect it to an HD STB from my Cable Provider. That would give me the option of receiving all of my Cable Provider's VOD + OTT from TiVo + Chumby Apps without changing inputs on the TV.

Pros: 
Chumby Apps; 
Access to Cable Company's VOD services
Cons: 
Lack of integrated search across linear and OTT programming; 
No Amazon Instant Video Support?; 
No Hulu Plus?
; ...
Option 2 is to buy a different TV and connect a Preview box + CableCard + external Tuning Adapter. If the Insignia TiVo streamed from the Premiere or Premiere Elite I would be very tempted to go the first route.

Pros: 

Integrated TiVo experience across Linear and OTT programming; 
Streaming from the TiVo Premiere; 
Possibly better software upgrade support?; 
Support for TiVo Slide Remote
Cons: 
Additional external box (Tuning Adapter); 
No Chumby Apps?;
Higher initial cost outlay (depends on a number of factors);
Monthly subscription fee (depends on a number of factors);

Looking through this list of Pros & Cons I think I will be moving towards the latter option but Option 1 isn't a horrible option for someone who wants the cable companies programming and doesn't want another external box (Roku, ATV, etc. )


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/07/28/tivo-and-best-buy-get-chumby-over-insignia/


> Could TiVo jump-start their app library, as well as their developer base, by adopting Chumbys app environment for their platforms outside of the Insignia TVs? It would certainly give them a shot in the arm. Theyd benefit from the established library of apps, and the combined platform would provide a larger user base, which is more appealing to developers.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

davezatz said:


>


Oh no! The TiVo man has lost his antennae and legs!

Perhaps it's a metaphor.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Oh no! The TiVo man has lost his antennae and legs!
> 
> Perhaps it's a metaphor.


Why would they take the cute Tivo guy away? To me, it made Tivo more appealing.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

aadam101 said:


> Why would they take the cute Tivo guy away? To me, it made Tivo more appealing.


They didn't take away all of him, just the parts that allowed him to function?

Metaphor? Omen?


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Notice nowhere in any of the pictures of the interface does it say "TiVo" or have a picture of the TiVo guy. It always says "Insignia". I'm guessing they took away the TiVo guy and put in this logo to differentiate a box like this from a TiVo DVR.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

unitron said:


> They didn't take away all of him, just the parts that allowed him to function?
> 
> Metaphor? Omen?


'More like the parts that would allow him to get up and get away from this mess... which is no doubt why they were removed.


----------



## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

They were obviously removed because the antennae and legs represented DVR functionality, which the TiVofied TV is lacking. The TiVo insignia does not need antennae when it does not record and it does not need the legs if there is no time shifting. So I wonder if the lack of legs signifies no streaming from the DVRs?


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

This TV seems to be targeted at customers who want to cut the cable TV cord, but at the same time are willing to pay a premium for a LED-LCD screen. I think many of these customers would rather save money on a cheaper LCD screen. It will be interesting to see how many customers think this TV has a DVR built in given the higher price, budget Insignia brand and not understanding the premium LED-LCD display.


----------



## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I don't understand this TV. Who uses the interface in the TV? People use the interface of the box connected to the TV. What is the point?


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Arcady said:


> I don't understand this TV. Who uses the interface in the TV? People use the interface of the box connected to the TV. What is the point?


But that is the trend. They are coming out with TVs that have all these Internet applications in them. Here on our government contract they have been buying these types of TVs left and right with all the Net apps. But they have no internet access for them. Which is typical of the government to spend more.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Arcady said:


> I don't understand this TV. Who uses the interface in the TV? People use the interface of the box connected to the TV. What is the point?


It's for someone who wants OTA TV and OTT content and and a premium LED-LCD display. I would think this type of customer would want to save money with a cheaper LCD display.


----------



## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

So who is going to buy one of these?


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Mike-Mike said:


> So who is going to buy one of these?


Someone who lives in a large metropolitan area where there are many OTA channels with good reception and high speed internet is available.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Mike-Mike said:


> So who is going to buy one of these?


Not plasma and under 50" so no go here


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

The 32" was in stock at a local Best Buy tonight. I added three new pics to my post... and here's the remote:


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

davezatz said:


> ... and here's the remote:


So, any idea what "Z-wave technology" is when it's at home?


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

davezatz said:


> The 32" was in stock at a local Best Buy tonight. I added three new pics to my post... and here's the remote:


What's the purpose of the Thumbs Up/Down buttons? Is the software going to suggest shows for you and then recommend you get a VCR to record them?


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aadam101 said:


> What's the purpose of the Thumbs Up/Down buttons? Is the software going to suggest shows for you and then recommend you get a VCR to record them?


No it will probably recommend netflix, amazon, and cinema now titles.

Not a huge fan of the remote design, but at least the box makes it perfectly clear their is no dvr so people won't be confused.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> No it will probably recommend netflix, amazon, and cinema now titles.
> 
> Not a huge fan of the remote design, but at least the box makes it perfectly clear their is no dvr so people won't be confused.


The Tivo boxes don't do this. They will upset people if they start to implement features on this TV that are not available on Tivo.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

I'd definitely consider a TV that had an embedded TiVo DVR. Otherwise, I fail to see the point.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aadam101 said:


> The Tivo boxes don't do this. They will upset people if they start to implement features on this TV that are not available on Tivo.


Who says this update won't roll out to the TiVo? It seems like a fairly simple tweak. Just modify suggestions to include anything available via search. Since the tv won't record, suggestions will just list content available via the ott providers. Of course thumbs ratings are also used for the discovery bar so it might not even have a suggestions option.


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

It's a universal remote. Perhaps the thumbs-up and thumbs-down buttons are working properly if you ... have a TiVo!


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Who says this update won't roll out to the TiVo? It seems like a fairly simple tweak.


Seriously? We haven't seen any evidence from Tivo that they give a damn about "simple tweaks" in years. Just look at the Netflix app. It can't even display an entire series if the series is more than 100 episodes. I can't even fathom the idea that they would roll anything like this out to Tivo boxes anytime soon. I doubt it will even be be a feature on the TV. I suppose we will find out tomorrow.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

The question should be who going to buy anything after the United States default.


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

unitron said:


> So, any idea what "Z-wave technology" is when it's at home?


Z-wave is a home automation protocol. The insinuation is that the remote can issue Z-wave commands to control lights and switches if you have Z-wave system installed in your home. Its not mainstream, a pretty minimal market. There are other protocols that would have garnered a larger audiance. Insteon for instance.

So they go on sale today. Who is going to buy one and do a review?


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

jcthorne said:


> Who is going to buy one and do a review?


I want to go check it out. I doubt I will do an impulse buy. I'd rather someone else be the ginea pig.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

jcthorne said:


> So they go on sale today. Who is going to buy one and do a review?


I had a con call with Best Buy on Friday and they intend to get me a review unit in the near future. I was kinda tempted last night when I saw it in the store, but my mission was a TV stand.


----------



## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

davezatz said:


> The 32" was in stock at a local Best Buy tonight. I added three new pics to my post... and here's the remote:


Why the play/pause/FF/RW on a supposedly non-DVR TV?

Does it magically become a DVR if you stick a SD card in for storage?


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

ncbill said:


> Why the play/pause/FF/RW on a supposedly non-DVR TV?
> 
> Does it magically become a DVR if you stick a SD card in for storage?


You still need those buttons to control Netflix.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ncbill said:


> Why the play/pause/FF/RW on a supposedly non-DVR TV?


It's a universal remote



ncbill said:


> Does it magically become a DVR if you stick a SD card in for storage?


no


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

ncbill said:


> Why the play/pause/FF/RW on a supposedly non-DVR TV?
> 
> Does it magically become a DVR if you stick a SD card in for storage?


It's a universal remote. It can control DVD players, etc.

I'm a bit picky with the panels I buy (plasma, calibration accuracy, etc) but overall this doesn't sound bad for a house-brand TV.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

If this remote will control your TiVo (including the more than one TiVo in the same room trick! Otherwise, no deal.)and the TV and your A/V receiver and the odd DVD player and VCR, it might be worth getting the TV to get the remote, especially if someone in your household really, really doesn't care for the Peanut/Harmony shape remotes.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Anyone go to their local Best Buy today? 
I went by one near me around 1 pm and didn't see anything on the new TV.
No TVs, no displays being prepped. 
Sorry, I didn't feel like talking to the BB drones, so I have no further info.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

steve614 said:


> Anyone go to their local Best Buy today?
> I went by one near me around 1 pm and didn't see anything on the new TV.
> No TVs, no displays being prepped.
> Sorry, I didn't feel like talking to the BB drones, so I have no further info.


I checked the circular in today's Sunday paper, and no mention of it whatsoever.

(also, no 2TB WD green drives on sale either, darn it. )


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

steve614 said:


> Anyone go to their local Best Buy today?


It's there if you know where to look...










Actually, that may not be entirely true. Select stores seem to be getting them first... presumably as inventory builds up. For example, in my region, I believe only some stores have them this weekend. (This photo was shot at Fairlakes, Fairfax, VA.) Expect a marketing push soon.

(I bought a new TV at Best Buy today... but this wasn't it. After my horrible experience with a "smart" Vizio TV, I want the dumbest set I can find.)


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

The prices certainly seem like a Premium. I see They have a 55" 120Hz LED LCD Insignia on sale for $1100 now. That sounds like a better deal. You get that and a Roku 2 for $100 and you have more apps than what the TiVo powered one has and a larger screen for not much more.


----------



## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

how well is insignia known and what quality are their tvs. Would they be considered dependable, few issues and great picture? 

Although I'm not looking to upgrade my tv any time soon, I would like to when I have the money. My generic sharp 32" lcd loves to have the picture fall behind the picture by a second or two after it's been on for a couple hours. Oh how that annoys me.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> The prices certainly seem like a Premium.


I believe the prices I originally ran with are incorrect...



LoREvanescence said:


> how well is insignia known and what quality are their tvs. Would they be considered dependable, few issues and great picture?


Insignia is one of Best Buy's house brands. I can't vouch for how these sets perform, but they come with a two year warranty,


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> I'd definitely consider a TV that had an embedded TiVo DVR. Otherwise, I fail to see the point.


I remember way back when I first joined the forum, some people wanted a TV with TiVo functionality but not the DVR. They had stuff they wanted to watch, but they didn't necessarily need it to be recorded.

The idea was, you would have Season Passes and Wishlists and so on, so whenever you turned on the TV screen, it would already be tuned to the channel you wanted to watch. E.g. the morning news on the channel you wanted to see.

The work-around that someone suggested, and that I used for a while, was to set a short manual recording at the start of the timeslot for the news program I wanted. Whenever we got up, there would be some portion of the morning news in the buffer.

For this market, I could see the usefulness of having a TV that had a 30-minute buffer and trick play plus something like TiVo Basic.

Whether that market would be big enough to be sustainable, or useful as an entry-level product that would get people hooked on the TiVo UI, is another matter.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Looks like the embargo is up. Best Buy just tweeted this.

http://www.huginonline.com/hol/releaseDetails.faces?rId=1535142

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/01/best-buy-launches-insignia-connected-tvs-with-dvr-less-tivo/


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Looks like the embargo is up. Best Buy just tweeted this.
> 
> http://www.huginonline.com/hol/releaseDetails.faces?rId=1535142


Interesting there is no Amazon or Blockbuster included. I wouldn't mind seeing Blockbuster go away.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

It looks like they get a different Pandora app or maybe our future version?
From Engadget
http://www.engadget.com/photos/insignia-tvs-with-tivos-ui/#4332599

Looks like according to the Best Buy release,



> The new Insignia Connected TV will be available in 32- and 42-inch models for $499 and $699 respectively, on BestBuy.com and at Best Buy stores nationwide.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> It looks like they get a different Pandora app or maybe our future version?


They also have an updated Netflix app... I have pics and will be posting today. I rarely to never do the midnight embargo thing.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Until I get around to posting... Best Buy is researching bringing multi-room viewing to this set (not available now) and DirecTV RVU (which would be insane).


----------



## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

davezatz said:


> Until I get around to posting... Best Buy is researching bringing multi-room viewing to this set (not available now) and DirecTV RVU (which would be insane).


hmm, never heard of RVU before that looks crazy.

Imagine if a tivo series 5 had that built in and could go between satellite and cable?


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

davezatz said:


> They also have an updated Netflix app... I have pics and will be posting today. I rarely to never do the midnight embargo thing.


Cool. Yeah I know you stopped doing the midnight embargo. So I guess I will ask now, any word from TiVo that these are new versions we might see on the Premiere or are they specific to the TV? The Pandora one doesn't look like it adds anything and is just a different layout which doesn't make sense unless it is just a Best Buy preference.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Looks like the embargo is up. Best Buy just tweeted this.
> 
> http://www.huginonline.com/hol/releaseDetails.faces?rId=1535142
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/01/best-buy-launches-insignia-connected-tvs-with-dvr-less-tivo/


Now those prices are much better. $699 for the 42" is better but after looking at the other 42" sets is still a little higher. Wow! I didn't know prices had come down so much. Three years ago I got a Samsung 40" set for a little over $1k and that was an excellent price at the time. At that was for a basic 60Hz fluorescent lit set.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

davezatz said:


> They also have an updated Netflix app... I have pics and will be posting today. I rarely to never do the midnight embargo thing.


Maybe this will bode well for the Premieres Netflix App?


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> So I guess I will ask now, any word from TiVo that these are new versions we might see on the Premiere or are they specific to the TV?


I'm seeking clarification and approval to cover...



aaronwt said:


> Now those prices are much better. $699 for the 42" is better but after looking at the other 42" sets is still a little higher. Wow! I didn't know prices had come down so much.Three years ago I got a Samsung 40" set for a little over $1k and that was an excellent price at the time. At that was for a basic 60Hz fluorescent lit set.


Yeah, I found out the correct prices Thursday but at that point lost my ability to communicate freely until the embargo lifted. The 42" is very competitive I think for what it offers (including three speakers). But do people actively seek out "smart" TVs?


----------



## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

Personally I don't. I just want my TV to be a dumb monitor and speakers to whatever boxes I plug into it. 
The box I plug into it, eg a $60 to $100 Roku, Apple TV, etc, will bring better smartness and will have a longer support life then the smartness that typically get put in TV and abandoned long before the TV is put out to pasture.


----------



## jamericatv (Dec 2, 2009)

Will this be able to stream recorded shows from my Premiere? This is a major over site if that feature is not included or not planned in an update. I assume it doesn't come with it since I haven't seen it promoted as such anywhere but does anyone know if this would be possible via an update in the future?


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

P42 said:


> Personally I don't. I just want my TV to be a dumb monitor and speakers to whatever boxes I plug into it.
> The box I plug into it, eg a $60 to $100 Roku, Apple TV, etc, will bring better smartness and will have a longer support life then the smartness that typically get put in TV and abandoned long before the TV is put out to pasture.


Smart TVs, blu-ray players, etc are a fairly new thing. How much future support they will receive is yet to be seen.

To assume a Roku box will automatically be or stay "better" is also yet to be seen.

Many of these new "smart" devices (including these Insignia TVs) provide future revenue sources which changes how connected a company will stay with a product after it has been sold. I have no reason to believe that these TVs will not receive future software updates - that is half of the reason to have contracted the "smart" part of them to TiVo.

I know most people don't think much of TiVo's current streaming abilities but just because one player or another is better at streaming stuff now doesn't mean it will stay that way. Just ask Hyundai and Honda how that works - for the first time for as long as I can remember the Honda Civic sedan is no longer on Consumer Reports recommended small sedan list and the former Piece of Sh** Hyundai Elantra sedan is ranked number 1 (as of the 9/2011 issue).


----------



## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

davezatz said:


> The 32" was in stock at a local Best Buy tonight. I added three new pics to my post... and here's the remote:


I took a quick look around the BB near my job and didn't see any of these TV's yet. I didn't have time or desire to talk to their TV sales guys though so maybe I missed it.


----------



## Iluvatar (Jul 22, 2006)

davezatz said:


> They also have an updated Netflix app... I have pics and will be posting today. I rarely to never do the midnight embargo thing.


It seems from the engadget pics that it also has a more complete HDUI. Looks like the settings menus are in HD and are displayed simultaneously with the Live TV preview box.

http://www.engadget.com/photos/insignia-tvs-with-tivos-ui/#4332594


----------



## Johnwashere (Sep 17, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> It looks like they get a different Pandora app or maybe our future version?
> From Engadget
> http://www.engadget.com/photos/insignia-tvs-with-tivos-ui/#4332599
> 
> Looks like according to the Best Buy release,


I dont think that pandora app looks as good as ours. It dosent even take up the whole screen. Seems like they are just using the design/search part of the tivo. The pandora and netflix apps are both different from tivos.


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Johnwashere said:


> I dont think that pandora app looks as good as ours. It dosent even take up the whole screen. Seems like they are just using the design/search part of the tivo. The pandora and netflix apps are both different from tivos.


I see the Pandora App but where is a picture of the netflix app? I don't see it in the 9 images posted on engadget.


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

sbiller said:


> I see the Pandora App but where is a picture of the netflix app? I don't see it in the 9 images posted on engadget.


Found the picture linked in Dave Zatz's blog post.


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

And another view...


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Could these Pandora and Netflix apps be Chumby versions?


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

wmcbrine said:


> Could these Pandora and Netflix apps be Chumby versions?


The Pandora one is, I'm pretty sure. While not identical in appearance to the one in the demo video provided by Chumby at CES, the Pandora logo and station ID are in the identical locations, and the thumbs up and thumbs down icons on the buttons are the same.








Pandora on Chumby from CES








Pandora on Insignia TV


----------



## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

It also says it has "Insignia On Demand" - I wonder what that is?


----------



## Iluvatar (Jul 22, 2006)

javabird said:


> It also says it has "Insignia On Demand" - I wonder what that is?


Well BestBuy owns CinemaNow on demand services so it may be related to that.


----------



## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

Anyone think these things will trickle down to the Premiere? and is the UI fast?


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

jamericatv said:


> Will this be able to stream recorded shows from my Premiere? This is a major over site if that feature is not included or not planned in an update.


(Oversight is one word and spelled the way I spelled it.)

Read several posts above yours. Your answer was at least *hinted* at.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

So it seems the Tivo software on this TV is really just Chumby? Wow....Tivo...wow


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

aadam101 said:


> So it seems the Tivo software on this TV is really just Chumby?


Um.

No.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

sbiller said:


> Found the picture linked in Dave Zatz's blog post.
> 
> ....


Exactly the same as Netflix on my Vizio, which also has Amazon, Fandango, Facebook, Flickr, Blockbuster, Twitter, Vudu+, Rhapsody, and about 20 other apps/widgets avaliable.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

sbiller said:


> And another view...


That looks like the Netflix version that is on my Boxee Boxes. But it's also a different one than what my Roku2 has.


----------



## Johnwashere (Sep 17, 2005)

Tivo has confirmed on their facebook page that these TVs will NOT be able to stream from other premiers. I wont be buying this TV now...


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Johnwashere said:


> Tivo has confirmed on their facebook page that these TVs will NOT be able to stream from other premiers. I wont be buying this TV now...


TiVo has not even announced that streaming is supported on the Premiere platform at this time. Dave Zatz has a "soft" confirmation that they are considering supporting streaming. It appears that these TVs have the horsepower to support it so I would expect that it will ultimately be supported on these TVs.


----------



## sirfergy (May 18, 2002)

sbiller said:


> TiVo has not even announced that streaming is supported on the Premiere platform at this time. Dave Zatz has a "soft" confirmation that they are considering supporting streaming. It appears that these TVs have the horsepower to support it so I would expect that it will ultimately be supported on these TVs.


I'm not sure TiVo has the track record to back that statement up.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Does anyone know if any of the main TV reviewing organizations/web sites (Consumer Reports, CNET, etc.) are going to review these TVs?

I would actually be interested in seeing how they stack up in general and against other similarly priced TVs. I know the "Smart" part is the new thing but if they don't perform very well when it comes to the actual picture who really cares about the "Smart" part?


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Oh no! The TiVo man has lost his antennae and legs!
> 
> Perhaps it's a metaphor.


"Daddy, why does the man have that funny, eggy shape? Shouldn't he be shaped rectangular like a TV?"


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> Um.
> 
> No.


Well Chumby existing on these TV's makes it better than my Tivo that I pay a subscription for in many ways.

The fact that this TV has a better Netflix app than the app that I PAY TO USE is another _slap_ in the face to Tivo subscribers.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> Interesting there is no Amazon or Blockbuster included. I wouldn't mind seeing Blockbuster go away.


You think Amazon would sell a TV with Best Buy on it? Same thing.

What I can't grok is Dave Zatz buying TVs at Best Buy.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

What's wrong with BestBuy? You can typically get a price similar to amazon, plus Best Buy has a 45 day return policy with silver Reward zone, and it's local so less of a hassle if there is an issue. From 2001 to 2006 I bought all my HDTVs online. But starting in 2007 I started getting them locally since I could get a similar price with extended warranty as I could get online. Only it was less of a hassle for delivery or if there were issues. Plus it would also add to my reward zone dollars from best Buy,


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> What's wrong with BestBuy? You can typically get a price similar to amazon, plus Best Buy has a 45 day return policy with silver Reward zone, and it's local so less of a hassle if there is an issue. From 2001 to 2006 I bought all my HDTVs online. But starting in 2007 I started getting them locally since I could get a similar price with extended warranty as I could get online. Only it was less of a hassle for delivery or if there were issues. Plus it would also add to my reward zone dollars from best Buy,


Well there's taxes (Amazon doesn't collect any), plus on Amazon I get $1 for every $33 I spend there with Amazon's credit card. So things tend to be cheaper on Amazon, plus Amazon has a post sale price matching policy on TV's. They also have a 30 day return policy with free return shipping.

When I bought a TV a few years back, they wanted to charge me $50 to ship a TV 8 miles to me (because they ship out of state to a warehouse and then back). Amazon has free shipping.


----------



## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Best Buy is not for everyone, but neither is it as bad as many on this forum tend to believe. They do have price matching. The price matching extends to 30 days after purchase. With the Reward Zone Card you get 2% back in certificates. If you use the BB Credit Card that amount is doubled to 4%.

Delivery is free on TVs $999 and more and $69 on cheaper models. The delivery includes taking it out of the box, attaching the pedestal base, placing it on the stand and connecting to the cable box. That's something that many of you don't care about, but is of value to a large percentage of buyers.


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 3, 2009)

javabird said:


> It also says it has "Insignia On Demand" - I wonder what that is?





> Insignia On Demand (a Flingo-powered video service).


From

Best Buy tests the connected TV market  By Ryan Lawler  Reuters  8/1/11


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

netringer said:


> You think Amazon would sell a TV with Best Buy on it? Same thing.
> 
> What I can't grok is Dave Zatz buying TVs at Best Buy.


For me, I'd rather buy bulky or delicate items locally to avoid the potential hassle of dealing with shipping a return.

Of course it's also important to see, touch, or hear some things before you buy them. For those items I'm willing to pay a small premium to a local B&M store for their cost to provide me that opportunity. Yeah, I know, some folks check it out at Best Buy and then buy on Amazon. Long term that strategy is going to diminish the opportunity to try before buying.


----------



## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

no cable card? How can you get HD on these Tv's? Do you still have to rent a cable box and control it with IR blasters?


----------



## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Cablebox - yes. IR Blaster - no.

The Insignia remote can be programmed to control the cablebox.


----------



## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

Anyone buy one of these yet? I'm looking for a couple of simple questions about the Netflix app *based solely on looking at it* - and Dave for whatever reason can't answer:

1) is the Netflix app just Chumby?

2) does the Netflix app allow browsing / subtitles?

Thanks!


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

netringer said:


> What I can't grok is Dave Zatz buying TVs at Best Buy.





nrc said:


> For me, I'd rather buy bulky or delicate items locally to avoid the potential hassle of dealing with shipping a return.





aaronwt said:


> You can typically get a price similar to amazon, plus Best Buy has a 45 day return policy with silver Reward zone, and it's local so less of a hassle if there is an issue.


Yeah, that's pretty much the long and short of it. I identified the set I wanted and Best Buy happened to have it, and on sale - it was still a bit more than Amazon, but I'd rather deal with a retail outpost 4 miles away should we run into any issues. My wife is uncomfortable having a television shipped and I share some of that concern. And a return shipment, if needed, would be tedious.



TheWGP said:


> 1) is the Netflix app just Chumby?


I believe it to be a TiVo app.



atmuscarella said:


> Does anyone know if any of the main TV reviewing organizations/web sites (Consumer Reports, CNET, etc.) are going to review these TVs?


CNET mentioned in their coverage they intended to get a loaner. They're much better equipped to do a general television comparison. If/when I get a unit, I'd most likely just do a casual comparison to sets I have and look at those "smart" features. But we'll see...


----------



## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

morac said:


> Well there's taxes (Amazon doesn't collect any).


They do collect taxes in my state (Washington).


----------



## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

davezatz said:


> I'm seeking clarification and approval to cover...
> 
> Yeah, I found out the correct prices Thursday but at that point lost my ability to communicate freely until the embargo lifted. The 42" is very competitive I think for what it offers (including three speakers). But do people actively seek out "smart" TVs?


I actually think most people don't want to buy an extra box or pay a subscription. Most of my friends just want to buy a TV and hook it up. Having the Netflix streaming and the guide are just a plus.


----------



## Len McRiddles (Dec 21, 2002)

javabird said:


> They do collect taxes in my state (Washington).


And in New York.


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

davezatz said:


> I(I bought a new TV at Best Buy today... but this wasn't it. After my horrible experience with a "smart" Vizio TV, I want the dumbest set I can find.)


Can you tell us more about this "horrible experience?" Was this covered in a previous post here, or a blog post? I ask because I saw a friend's Vizio set this weekend, it had a bunch of Internet apps and connectivity, and I thought it was pretty cool. Didn't really dive in too much to explore the details, though.


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Johnwashere said:


> Tivo has confirmed on their facebook page that these TVs will NOT be able to stream from other premiers. I wont be buying this TV now...


Margret Schmidt, Vice President of User Experience at TiVo (@tivodesign on Twitter) also answered the question about whether or not these TV's will be able to stream from TiVo:

"It does not."

I suppose since streaming (from Premiere to Premiere) isn't an official feature yet (but we know it's coming) there's the *possibility* that it may arrive for these sets too... but I certainly wouldn't gamble on that if it's a deciding feature for you. We're talking about TiVo here (and they've pretty much lost any street cred when it comes to backwards compatibility and polishing features.) Throw Best Buy into the mix and things just get confusing. I would only buy this set based on what it offers _today_, not based on any promise (or even "soft confirmation" that they are "working towards" anything.)


----------



## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

Agreed Fofer. 
Future features are always subject to change, and removal, for any one of a number of a reasons, and even if it has been officially announced. Until a feature ships, don't buy it for that feature.


----------



## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

P42 said:


> Agreed Fofer.
> Future features are always subject to change, and removal, for any one of a number of a reasons, and even if it has been officially announced. Until a feature ships, don't buy it for that feature.


I was kind of hoping this thread would die, as this is really not a Tivo since it lacks Tivo specific features (ie. MRV) and is completely branded Insignia without any Tivo logos, as far as I can tell. But I have to agree with your point -- Tivo's time frame for delivering on "future" features is somewhere between forever and infinity. Talk to anyone that bought a Premiere with the promise of a working HD interface. Call me unimpressed and underwhelmed (again) with another one of Tivo's half-baked products.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Well the HD interface works. That's what all my Premieres are set to use. The problem is that all the screens aren't using an HD interface.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Nobody has one of these yet?


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Nobody has one of these yet?


Sounds like an epic fail when even the most dedicated Tivo users won't bite the bullet.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

aadam101 said:


> Sounds like an epic fail when even the most dedicated Tivo users won't bite the bullet.


I don't know about you but I don't just buy TVs because some new model has been released.

I only buy one when I need a new one which in the last 28 years since I purchased my first one has only happened 3 times (which includes the my first TV) and hopefully another decade will go by before I have to buy another one.

The fact that no one on this board has purchased one of these less than a week after they were released tells me nothing about how good or bad these smart TVs are.

Thanks,


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> Well the HD interface works. That's what all my Premieres are set to use. The problem is that all the screens aren't using an HD interface.


Well, it "works" but it's slow, is completely dependent on an internet connection, and in fact can freeze if/when that connection gets flakey. The inconsistency of the graphic elements, not all in HD... is just a kick in the side.

I stick with the SDUI, and the iPad app. Keeps me saner and happier.


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

aadam101 said:


> Sounds like an epic fail when even the most dedicated Tivo users won't bite the bullet.


Please, let's not go off the rails. "Epic fail?" According to the thread title these just started to be offered 3 days ago. We're still learning what they can and cannot do. I'm not saying they will be a slam dunk, but to throw around words like "epic fail" this quickly just devolves the entire discussion to silliness.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Fofer said:


> Can you tell us more about this "horrible experience?" Was this covered in a previous post here, or a blog post? I ask because I saw a friend's Vizio set this weekend, it had a bunch of Internet apps and connectivity, and I thought it was pretty cool.


I've touched on it in a few posts (like this one) and with comments here and there. The Vizio set I have runs Yahoo widgets. In theory, they offer a nice selection. But in daily usage, they're too slow and crashy to bother with. Worse, the TV will spontaneously reboot even without any app interaction while just watching TV. That's my main gripe (and GigaOm/NewTeeVee experienced similar with a different model). But I also dislike the remote and speakers. It's a smaller set, like 23" - was our temporary bedroom TV and will now live in the guest bedroom or basement (as my lab TV).


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Fofer said:


> Please, let's not go off the rails. "Epic fail?" According to the thread title these just started to be offered 3 days ago. We're still learning what they can and cannot do. I'm not saying they will be a slam dunk, but to throw around words like "epic fail" this quickly just devolves the entire discussion to silliness.


For every new Tivo unit that has been released somebody on this forum went out and bought it the very first day (or before). The fact that it hasn't happened yet doesn't sit well with me. If the Premiere had been a better product I bet someone (or several) would have bought one by now.

Is there a display in the store? You would think at the very least someone would have played with one.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

If you've already got a Tivo, the TV interface and the apps are redundant.


----------



## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

aadam101 said:


> Is there a display in the store? You would think at the very least someone would have played with one.


Yeah, i thought i'd go down to my local Best Buy (Valley Stream NY) to play with one. I couldn't find it so I asked a sales person, who showed me a half working Premiere and said that's all he could think of, even when I said it was Insignia made, with a TiVo interface.


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

aadam101 said:


> For every new Tivo unit that has been released somebody on this forum went out and bought it the very first day (or before). The fact that it hasn't happened yet doesn't sit well with me.


Well, it's a TV. Folks don't buy TV's as often as they do set-top boxes. It may very well be a disappointing product in the long run but to call it an "epic fail" three days after it's out, simply because no one here has reported that they purchased one, is kinda silly, that's all.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

It's a TV and it's really not aimed at "dedicated TiVo users". It's just a way for Best Buy's Insignia brand to get competitive Smart TV features that are easy to use without having to build it themselves.


----------



## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Once the TV can interact with a TiVo, say by streaming from a Premier, I suspect a number of people on this board would purchase one.

At this point it is just a TV. If inhere in the market for a tv, I would consider it - but I am not going to run out and buy one.


----------



## jtso (Oct 2, 2009)

aadam101 said:


> For every new Tivo unit that has been released somebody on this forum went out and bought it the very first day (or before). The fact that it hasn't happened yet doesn't sit well with me. If the Premiere had been a better product I bet someone (or several) would have bought one by now.
> 
> Is there a display in the store? You would think at the very least someone would have played with one.


I was in my local Best Buy yesterday. They had the 32" all in boxes (4 or 5 of them) but they didn't have one on display. They hadn't gotten any of the 42" sets yet. The salesman I spoke with (nice fellow) didn't know much about them and said he had to do more research on them.


----------



## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

I checked at two local Best Buy stores yesterday. The first store knew nothing about these TVs until I had them look on their intranet. They had none in the store. The second store salesman also knew nothing, found on the intranet, and found one 32" in stock, in the box on an overhead shelf with overstock items. He was not interested in putting it on display so I could have a look.

I wonder why they don't sell any?


----------



## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

These TVs are still not available in large quantities. In the Pittsburgh region (17 BB stores) there are only 7 stores that have 1-2 of them. The local warehouse has 30 of them. No one has them on display.

They will probably increase and be featured in the next few weeks.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

jrm01 said:


> These TVs are still not available in large quantities. In the Pittsburgh region (17 BB stores) there are only 7 stores that have 1-2 of them. The local warehouse has 30 of them. No one has them on display. They will probably increase and be featured in the next few weeks.


Yeah, that's how Insignia's product management described it to me -- they'd take some time to get inventory out and then make a push.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

maybe they will be on sale for Labor day.


----------



## Shanezam203 (Jul 28, 2007)

shwru980r said:


> I've you've already got a Tivo, the TV interface and the apps are redundant.


Right the value here is putting it in a kitchen or somewhere without a Tivo unit right?


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

...if it included streaming from another TiVo in the house, sure. Without it, no thanks. Sounds like it just has some internet apps and a menu system that's styled by TiVo. I'd want access to my DVR'ed shows.


----------



## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

Shanezam203 said:


> Right the value here is putting it in a kitchen or somewhere without a Tivo unit right?


At 32" or 42" I would think that these televisions are way too large for a kitchen...unless your surname happens to be Carrington.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mrsean said:


> At 32" or 42" I would think that these televisions are way too large for a kitchen...unless your surname happens to be Carrington.


and they are way to small for the living room. Guess they are only targeting the bedroom


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

mrsean said:


> At 32" or 42" I would think that these televisions are way too large for a kitchen


Only if you're thinking of putting it on a counter like an old-style TV set.

If I were to put a TV in my kitchen the most likely place would be on the blank piece of end wall. That's five or six feet away from the most-used piece of work surface (which faces that end wall), and about ten feet away from the furthest spot you can stand in the kitchen.

Either of those sizes should work OK, although I'd probably go for the 32"


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

This is from the Motley Fool: http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/08/05/this-weeks-5-dumbest-stock-moves.aspx

Guess which one is number one on the list and you only need one guess. I agree with the writer this TV set(s) should have included a DVR and cable card slot. TiVo and Best Buy should have agree on lifetime DVR service to be included with the price of the set(s) even it made them cost more. Once people understood what they were buying it would sell real well. As it stands now I think people who buy this set will end returning it once they find out there no DVR in it.


----------



## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

Fofer said:


> ...if it included streaming from another TiVo in the house, sure. Without it, no thanks. Sounds like it just has some internet apps and a menu system that's styled by TiVo. I'd want access to my DVR'ed shows.


This. If it can't stream from my Tivo I have NO interest at all.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Johncv said:


> This is from the Motley Fool: http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/08/05/this-weeks-5-dumbest-stock-moves.aspx
> 
> Guess which one is number one on the list and you only need one guess. I agree with the writer this TV set(s) should have included a DVR and cable card slot. TiVo and Best Buy should have agree on lifetime DVR service to be included with the price of the set(s) even it made them cost more. Once people understood what they were buying it would sell real well. As it stands now I think people who buy this set will end returning it once they find out there no DVR in it.


Don't agree at all, a DVR should not be integrated into a TV set. Streaming from other Tivos yes, a DVR which has a drive that could fail and crash your TV, no.

Cablecard slots are dead in TVs, and have been for years. Nobody wanted to pay extra for them, and the cableCos screwed everyone over with CCs anyway.

Agree on the main premise, which is that there's little point to Tivo-branding the set if it doesn't remotely resemble a Tivo (and it doesn't). Having the UI is pointless when every other set has internet apps now, and Tivo's UI has never been its strong suit anyway (especially with HD).


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

If this TV streamed from a Tivo, would they just allow it to stream from any Tivo without regard to the account? If the TV is not limited to a specific Tivo account, then you could access any Tivo as long as you could connect the TV to the corresponding network. One person could effectively broadcast video to other homes or apartments. I don't think this would be legal.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

It would probably have the same limitations of having to be on the same network.


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

innocentfreak said:


> It would probably have the same limitations of having to be on the same network.


And having it's Media Access Key linked to your TiVo.com account.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Fofer said:


> And having it's Media Access Key linked to your TiVo.com account.


You might just be able to do it like the iPad where you enter your MAK.


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Or that, sure. I'm sure TiVo would get it worked out that you can't just stream to anyone.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Fofer said:


> And having it's Media Access Key linked to your TiVo.com account.


Would Tivo be willing to do that for free? There is no subscription fee for the TV. This would allow a customer to buy the TV instead of a second Tivo.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Does any of this matter? The TVs are not going to stream from other Tivos, so it's pointless to speculate how it would work.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Does any of this matter? *The TVs are not going to stream from other Tivos*, so it's pointless to speculate how it would work.


And you know this how??


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

SullyND said:


> And you know this how??


Well, there's this:



Johnwashere said:


> Tivo has confirmed on their facebook page that these TVs will NOT be able to stream from other premiers. I wont be buying this TV now...


Also, as I posted above, and will reiterate:

Margret Schmidt, Vice President of User Experience at TiVo (@tivodesign on Twitter) also answered the question about whether or not these TV's will be able to stream from TiVo:

*"It does not."*

(That's pretty clear.)

I suppose since streaming (from Premiere to Premiere) isn't an official feature yet (but we know it's coming) there's the *possibility* that it may arrive for these sets too... but I certainly wouldn't gamble on that if it's a deciding feature for you. We're talking about TiVo here (and they've pretty much lost any street cred when it comes to backwards compatibility and polishing features.) Throw Best Buy into the mix and things just get confusing. I would only buy this set based on what it offers _today_, not based on any promise (or even "soft confirmation" that they are "working towards" anything.)


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Fofer said:


> Well, there's this:


Did you read my post? You seem to be responding to someone who suggested people buy this TV. I made no such suggestion.

slowbiscuit indicated that the TVs are not going to stream from other Tivos. Do they currently? No. Will they eventually? The (unfortunate) fact is, no one knows.

According to Zatz, BB would like to get the TVs to support streaming from TiVos, as well as RVU from DirecTV.

Maybe they never will (given, as you say, TiVo's track record), but to state that they won't categorically is not accurate, assuming slowbiscuit does not work for TiVo or Insignia.


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Yes, I read your post. And I stand by my answer.

shwru980r was wondering about the nuances of how TiVo would restrict the streaming between Premiere and Insignia TV, so it couldn't be used to "broadcast video to other homes or apartments." The conversation here then went off on a (further) tangent about how it would (hypothetically) be handled.

It'd be handled the same way TiVo handles MRV or (eventual) streaming to other Premieres, I'd imagine.

And yet, I was agreeing with slowbiscuit. These TV's do NOT include streaming, might not, probably won't, we don't know... but for the time being, we know _for sure_ this isn't a feature.
You asked "And you know this how?"

So I responded how we know this. TiVo employees, one who administrates their Facebook page, and one whose title is "Vice President of User Experience" have told us so, pretty much categorically.

So hypothethizing and speculating how streaming might work, hypothetically, one day, in the future, in is very much an exercise in pointless frustration. And really, all it ends up doing at this time is confuse this conversation, as if it's actually a feature. When it's not. And very well might not ever be, at least with these particular TV sets. Wishing and hypothesizing doesn't make it so.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Fofer said:


> And yet, I was agreeing with slowbiscuit. These TV's do NOT include streaming, might not, probably won't, we don't know... but for the time being, we know _for sure_ this isn't a feature.
> You asked "And you know this how?"


That is not what slowbuscuit said. He said "will not" not "does not". Clearly, it isn't currently a feature. None of us know that it will not be a feature in the future. TiVoDesign did not say "will not", she said "does not".


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Okay, but shwru980r asked, _"If this TV streamed from a Tivo, would they just allow it to stream from any Tivo without regard to the account? If the TV is not limited to a specific Tivo account, then you could access any Tivo as long as you could connect the TV to the corresponding network. One person could effectively broadcast video to other homes or apartments. I don't think this would be legal."
_
...which got a few responses.

And then shwru980r followed up with, _"Would Tivo be willing to do that for free? There is no subscription fee for the TV. This would allow a customer to buy the TV instead of a second Tivo."
_
To that, slowbiscuit asked _"Does any of this matter?"
_

To that, I'll reiterate the same answer I'd said from the beginning: _ *"No."*_

We might as well be discussing how the TiVo Premieres (but not S3's or TiVoHD's) "will" handle the griddling of my pancakes.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

So any tested one of these TVs yet? 

Anyone seen a hands on review anywhere? 

Thanks,


----------



## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Our local BB has it set up on display including a network connection. I played with it for a few minutes, just looking at the menus and trying out Pandora. Seems to be a good inteface, but need to use it quite a bit more to say.

Did not like the remote at all. It is backlit, but the markings on the keys are poor, and the buttons too small for my fat fingers.


----------



## bsmith1051 (Nov 15, 2009)

these are on-sale now at Best Buy. I'm guessing that means they're not selling well? For the 42" model it now seems like a good price (regardless of the Tivo/not-Tivo support) for an LED-backlit 120Hz unit.


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 3, 2009)

been looking at the sunday best buy ads and havent seen them advertise/push them yet


----------



## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

davezatz said:


> I've touched on it in a few posts (like this one) and with comments here and there. The Vizio set I have runs Yahoo widgets. In theory, they offer a nice selection. But in daily usage, they're too slow and crashy to bother with. Worse, the TV will spontaneously reboot even without any app interaction while just watching TV.


Reports of Vizio "smart" televisions having reboot issues are widespread enough that I ended up not buying one when we decided to purchase a new TV - I went with an LG instead. Vizios are supposed to have superb picture quality and offer full LED backlighting at a price point where most others offer only side-lighting - but, in the end, a TV that turns itself off for 30 seconds at a time fails as a TV.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

westside_guy said:


> Reports of Vizio "smart" televisions having reboot issues are widespread enough that I ended up not buying one when we decided to purchase a new TV - I went with an LG instead. Vizios are supposed to have superb picture quality and offer full LED backlighting at a price point where most others offer only side-lighting - but, in the end, a TV that turns itself off for 30 seconds at a time fails as a TV.


There was a firmware update for the Vizio TVs. A coworker has a couple of them and Vizio sent him a USB stick to upgrade the firmware. Since the upgrade he has not been having issues.


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Yeah, I couldn't imagine that the "reboot issues" would last forever. That sounds like something that would be fixed pretty quickly by firmware, and if not, every unit would be returned.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Fofer said:


> Yeah, I couldn't imagine that the "reboot issues" would last forever. That sounds like something that would be fixed pretty quickly by firmware, and if not, every unit would be returned.


They lasted for many months for me. I just plugged the set back in after a few month hiatus and it received two updates. In limited usage, it hasn't rebooted. But the apps are still tedious and I don't like the remote.


----------

