# Online Video is a Disaster



## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

Sent to customer support. I really want TiVo to succeed, but enough is enough. Drank the Kool-Aid during their overhyped One Box press conference, and sunk way too much money into a TiVo Premiere based on a promise that TiVo looks set to never fulfill. 

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For the 3rd time in a month, I've had to painstakingly re-enter my Amazon account info. Email address, username & passwords. Total disaster, takes 10 minutes each time. Ditto YouTube. Not to mention the quality on YouTube is beyond horrendous, playlists are non functional and features are arbitrary. The way video podcasts are handled makes them all but useless, since I need to actively delete older entries to actually see new stuff. There is no real ability to browse Netflix titles.

I've been a TiVo user for 10 years. But I really don't know why at this point. The much touted "One Box" turned out to be just so much marketing nonsense, and nearly every aspect of internet video on the TiVo is terrible in some way. It's neither simple nor powerful. I just don't get it. 

I used to encourage my friends to buy TiVos, and some did. Now, I regret that decision and in the future I will steer them to other solutions as the platform is stale. No new feature rolled out in the last 10 years has been fully baked, and obvious candidates for integration such as Flickr are ignored. I'm a lifetime sub on 2 devices, but I'm almost ready to sell 'em both and find a better solution.

Fix your online video functions. Video podcasts, Netflix, YouTube & Amazon are all riddled with obvious flaws that should have been fixed before launch, not still causing issues years later. I give up. As one of my friends just tweeted, "@jakerome wow, @TiVo really had to work hard to lose you. You used to love it. That's not the kind of hard work that's good for biz."


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## shadowplay (Mar 12, 2003)

I've had to re-enter my Netflix info 3 times in the last 3 weeks on my PS3 so its not just a Tivo issue.

(of course only using the PS3 for Netflix because its so much better than Tivo's interface)


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jakerome said:


> I've been a TiVo user for 10 years. But I really don't know why at this point. ...


I will guess because you wanted a DVR and because TiVo was and still is an excellent DVR.



jakerome said:


> I used to encourage my friends to buy TiVos, and some did. Now, I regret that decision and in the future I will steer them to other solutions as the platform is stale. No new feature rolled out in the last 10 years has been fully baked, and obvious candidates for integration such as Flickr are ignored. I'm a lifetime sub on 2 devices, but I'm almost ready to sell 'em both and find a better solution.


TiVo's primary function is still to be a DVR - what DVR are you going to recommend that does all that other stuff? - oh wait there isn't one except for a custom built HTPC which will make the cost of a TiVo with lifetime look cheap.

I understand the rant - but regardless of the hype TiVo is still a DVR and one of the best that you can buy. The fact it doesn't do the streaming stuff better is not good but no reason not to own a TIVo.

Thanks,


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> I will guess because you wanted a DVR and because TiVo was and still is an excellent DVR.
> 
> *TiVo's primary function is still to be a DVR *- what DVR are you going to recommend that does all that other stuff? - oh wait there isn't one except for a custom built HTPC which will make the cost of a TiVo with lifetime look cheap.
> 
> ...


I've argued this point over and over again on TCF to no avail it seems....


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

The DVR functions are the primary reason. But stupid me, I bought a Premiere when I had a perfectly well functioning S3 because of the One Box promise. And the thing is, if online video worked worth a damn, it might be 80&#37; of my viewing. Instead it's 80% OTA (no cable) with occasional NetFlix. Doing it all over again, I would've held onto the S3 and bought an Apple TV upon release.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jakerome said:


> The DVR functions are the primary reason. But stupid me, I bought a Premiere when I had a perfectly well functioning S3 because of the One Box promise. And the thing is, if online video worked worth a damn, it might be 80% of my viewing. Instead it's 80% OTA (no cable) with occasional NetFlix. Doing it all over again, I would've held onto the S3 and bought an Apple TV upon release.


Yep I agree that there is very little (none for me as I am also OTA only) reason to replace a working Series 3 or TiVo HD with a Premiere. And I own one of each and I have compared them extensively.

The Premiere has the potential to be more - but it isn't there yet and may never be.

Thanks,


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## RangerOne (Dec 30, 2006)

There are two separate problems occurring here:

TiVo's streaming video software needs to be brought up to date. It would be nice if they upgraded the NetFlix and Amazon clients.

Second thing is the back end services need improving. I've had some performance and reliability issues with the Amazon VOD service. I experience the issue in different ways on both the TiVo and Roku boxes. I've started using TiVo more for Amazon since it's more immune from intermittent network issues. Even then, I've downloaded shows with some audio dropouts or dropped video in them. Yep, this is a work in progress.

..And I be remiss if I didn't say, the Series3 is an awesome DVR.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Obligatory "works for me". Forget about the individual apps and just use TiVo search.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> I've argued this point over and over again on TCF to no avail it seems....


But they keep adding other "services" as selling points. They try really hard to make themselves more than "just a DVR" but the fail miserably at it. Since it's inception, they have always tried to sell Tivo based on it's advantages over other DVR's. They love that they can slap a Netflix logo on every piece of marketing......it's too bad it works so poorly compared to other devices.


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## RockyW3syt (Jan 12, 2011)

I am sorry I read this thread. I have a new premier coming tomorrow. I guess I didn't do my research did I?

The Sony bluray succeeds as a single box concept.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

RockyW3syt said:


> The Sony bluray succeeds as a single box concept.


You can't very well use your Sony Blu-ray player as a DVR, can you?

Other than that, I think that many of the newer Blu-ray players and Internet connected HDTVs do an excellent job of adding Netflix, Pandora, Amazon on Demand, VUDU, etc. to the basic HDTV.


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

Taking step back, this is another reason why folks aren't replacing cable boxes with TiVo. They tout all these above & beyond features but they don't measure up. If TiVo made their stuff work better than Apple, Google, Roku, Vizio, Sony, and others, then plenty of folks would recommend that instead of buying an Apple TV, ditch your cable box, buy a TiVo & you'll have the best of both in One Box.

But the launch was underwhelming if promising. 10 months later, none of that promise has been realized. I know TiVo showed off new features to Zatz & others at CES, but considering the complete lack of buzz about anything TiVo I'm not confident that they'll deliver a better experience any time this year.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

It's incomprehensible to me that the Premiere can still be such a work in progress nearly one year after it came out. Tom Rogers should hang his head in shame, but it's obvious that he doesn't understand the concept of shame. Yes, the CEO isn't writing the code, but ultimately the buck needs to stop somewhere. Why does the BOD of AMD have more spine than Tivo's board?

Also the programmers and managers responsible for this software should also be fired. Surely it is still possible to hire competent programmers in Silicon Valley? I'd like to blame all of TiVo's problems on outsourced engineering in third world countries, but employees of TiVo have posted that TiVo does the majority of its software development in the USA.

So why aren't there any consequences for failure?


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> It's incomprehensible to me that the Premiere can still be such a work in progress nearly one year after it came out. Tom Rogers should hang his head in shame, but it's obvious that he doesn't understand the concept of shame. Yes, the CEO isn't writing the code, but ultimately the buck needs to stop somewhere. Why does the BOD of AMD have more spine than Tivo's board?
> 
> Also the programmers and managers responsible for this software should also be fired. Surely it is still possible to hire competent programmers in Silicon Valley? I'd like to blame all of TiVo's problems on outsourced engineering in third world countries, but employees of TiVo have posted that TiVo does the majority of its software development in the USA.
> 
> So why aren't there any consequences for failure?


Tivo can't go on like this forever. I don't know much about business but how many companies exist for 12 years without making a profit?


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

Honestly, Tom Rogers primary job isn't delivering a product, it's managing several billion dollar lawsuits-- that's the core business. This DVR thing? It's a nice sidelight



Phantom Gremlin said:


> It's incomprehensible to me that the Premiere can still be such a work in progress nearly one year after it came out. Tom Rogers should hang his head in shame, but it's obvious that he doesn't understand the concept of shame. Yes, the CEO isn't writing the code, but ultimately the buck needs to stop somewhere. Why does the BOD of AMD have more spine than Tivo's board?
> 
> Also the programmers and managers responsible for this software should also be fired. Surely it is still possible to hire competent programmers in Silicon Valley? I'd like to blame all of TiVo's problems on outsourced engineering in third world countries, but employees of TiVo have posted that TiVo does the majority of its software development in the USA.
> 
> So why aren't there any consequences for failure?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jakerome said:


> Honestly, Tom Rogers primary job isn't delivering a product, it's managing several billion dollar lawsuits-- that's the core business. This DVR thing? It's a nice sidelight


So it should just be ok for another company to come in and steal one's intellectual property (and profit from it) without consequence? Of course TiVo is going to protect what it created. Would it be alright if I or someone else came and just took your stuff?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Doesn't change his point, which is that the company has lost focus on the software that makes the box better than the others.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Doesn't change his point, which is that the company has lost focus on the software that makes the box better than the others.


I don't agree with that. The Premiere software is a HUGE change from what they had before. If they had lost focus on the software, the Premiere would have the same old SDUI found in the previous Series'. I'm definitely not saying the Flash implementation (HDUI) is flawless; far from it. But it does show that TiVo is trying new approaches.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> But it does show that TiVo is trying new approaches.


To quote a wise one who lived to be almost 900 years old: "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."

At some point in time a company needs to be judged on results, and not just on how hard they are trying. TiVo under Rogers has been an abject failure, other than in litigation.

This thread should not be necessary. More importantly, this thread should not be necessary such a long time after the Premiere was introduced with so much hype!


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Doesn't change his point, which is that the company has lost focus on the software that makes the box better than the others.


Bingo. Point is, the company's DVR revenue is anemic, $230 million the last 12 months. Compare that to the several billion they hope to win in the Echostar case alone. And face it, TiVo has been unprofitable selling DVRs & associated services. TiVo's core business is, for better or worse, lawsuits & licensing. Making DVRs is a nice ancillary business & that's how they treat it.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jakerome said:


> Bingo. Point is, the company's DVR revenue is anemic, $230 million the last 12 months. Compare that to the several billion they hope to win in the Echostar case alone. And face it, TiVo has been unprofitable selling DVRs & associated services. TiVo's core business is, for better or worse, lawsuits & licensing. Making DVRs is a nice ancillary business & that's how they treat it.


Um, isn't it just possible that TiVo could have been profitable if Dish had licensed the software to begin with, instead of just stealing it?


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## jakerome (Nov 29, 2002)

They would have minted some coin licensing patents, but that's still not the same thing as selling their actual end consumer product. Besides, we all see how much revenue the deals with Comcast, Cox & DirecTV have brought in over the years. My guess is add that up for the last 5 and it doesn't even cover what TiVo has paid the lawyers.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

I really believe tivo only builds and sells hardware because no one else will.

If dish, comcast and directv all had boxes running licenced tivo software 10 yrs ago, tivo would be a very different company today. They did not licence the software because they believed they did not have to.

Dish was the most blatent and got the lawsuit. Tivo still hopes that if that is ever resolved in thier favor, that it will not only bring the billions in lost revenue but the licencing agreements and product rollouts USING tivo software from the various providors. So far, that has not been a good business strategy but who knows.....

Perhaps the reason the Premiere is so poorly executed is that Tivo is spending more on lawyers than programmers.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> I really believe tivo only builds and sells hardware because no one else will.


Yes TiVo tried to be the Microsoft of DVR software. Over time many companies have built DVRs with TiVo software inside including Philips, Sony, Toshiba, Pioneer, & Humax. I am guessing the volume was never enough to keep them Interested so it just became cheaper for TiVo to build the hardware.

Volume has and likely will continue to be TiVo's problem. With over 100 million homes with TVs in the US they only needed to get into 10% of them to be very successful, however they seem to be stuck at nothing more than 2-3% (at the most), which means they are a niche product instead of a main stream product.

If the FCC ever gets on the ball and replaces cable cards with something that covers satellite and works without any added cost or hardware maybe TiVo could become more main stream. Only time will tell.

Thanks,


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## videogeek (Jan 18, 2011)

No actually I think it is coming to the point that it makes no sense. I just got my Tivo in December and it is rare that I am so unhappy with my tech buys. Things they could do to keep it interesting are done badly. Once my contract is up, here is the list of things I will do

- Buy PS3 (or 4 or 5 or what ever will be then) to do Netflix and video games
- Just get a comcast cable box and use their video on demand. Has all the shows as far as I can see. DVR in the cloud.
- Take a screwdriver to the Tivo and see what I can make out of it.


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## sbono13 (Sep 5, 2001)

jakerome said:


> Doing it all over again, I would've held onto the S3 and bought an Apple TV upon release.


Hate to be a TiVO apologist, but remember at the time, AppleTV1 didn't have Netflix. Even now, is the interface using an AppleTV or a Roku so much better that you would give up the playback experience of TiVo (instant replay, 30s skip, smooth pause/ff/rewind)? Not being able to browse Netflix is a negative, no doubt, but there are a lot of Netflix clients that can only access your queue. Roku doesn't even have Youtube, AppleTV doesn't have Amazon, their remotes stink compared to TiVo's (esp for entering text), etc. Point is, no one else has gotten streaming video all right, either, and I'm sure you'll agree that TiVo does some things better than the others. Are you sure this isn't a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jcthorne said:


> ...Perhaps the reason the Premiere is so poorly executed is that Tivo is spending more on lawyers than programmers.


I don't know if that's by choice though. There's 73 openings listed in IT & Engineering on the TiVo site. That's *millions* of dollars in salary that TiVo is willing to part with annually. I think paying the lawyers isn't something that TiVo necessarily _wants_ to do, but has been given little choice in the matter...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Order your stuff on Amazon.com on your computer and download it to your Tivo.

Then you don't have to deal with the Tivo interface to Amazon VOD. 

Works for me.

I do wish the Premiere had the equivalent of the ATV2 interface inside for its non-DVR functionality. I'd own another 1 or 2 Premieres then.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RockyW3syt said:


> I am sorry I read this thread. I have a new premier coming tomorrow. I guess I didn't do my research did I?
> 
> The Sony bluray succeeds as a single box concept.


your Sony Blu-Ray records broadcast TV


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> I don't know if that's by choice though. There's 73 openings listed in IT & Engineering on the TiVo site. That's *millions* of dollars in salary that TiVo is willing to part with annually. I think paying the lawyers isn't something that TiVo necessarily _wants_ to do, but has been given little choice in the matter...


I really wish they would let folks telecommute


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> I don't know if that's by choice though. There's 73 openings listed in IT & Engineering on the TiVo site.


Sigh. I just don't get it. Are software engineers in the Bay Area that hard to find? I'm too lazy to search for this info on TiVo's website, but hopefully the openings aren't in Taiwan, India, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Mexico, and Elbonia*, which are the countries TiVo outsources engineering to.

Let's look at one of the extant bugs. Allegedly the Premiere freezes for 10 minutes or more after being left idle for a while. *Just how f***ing hard can it be to find a problem like that???* Give me the source code and a build environment and I guarantee I can find that problem in a week, tops. And that's if I do something else for the first six days. I mean, really, this is the best that TiVo can do, nearly a year after they release a product???

Although I don't own a Premiere, this particular bug annoys me because one of my TiVo HDs has been freezing up. Perhaps in shared code? But maybe my TiVo is on the fritz.

Based on the general flakiness of TiVo's software, I bet that any 21st century version of the old Unix lint program could find scores of bugs by running one simple command. Heck, I bet scores of bugs could be fixed just by getting rid of compiler warnings, no static code analysis tools needed.

*sadly, Elbonia is the only fictional country on that list


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Sigh. I just don't get it. Are software engineers in the Bay Area that hard to find? I'm too lazy to search for this info on TiVo's website, but hopefully the openings aren't in Taiwan, India, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Mexico, and Elbonia*, which are the countries TiVo outsources engineering to.


do you have a source for that statement. I recall TiVoStephen telling you before that the statement was incorrect and that TiVo did not outsource such positions. I know I asked about staying on the east Coast where I live and working for TiVo and being told that TiVo wanted software engineers to work in office versus telecommute.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I recall TiVoStephen telling you before that the statement was incorrect and that TiVo did not outsource such positions.


Maybe that is the problem......


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## rrwcm (Dec 5, 2006)

RockyW3syt said:


> I am sorry I read this thread. I have a new premier coming tomorrow. I guess I didn't do my research did I?
> 
> The Sony bluray succeeds as a single box concept.


I have had 2 Premiers since they first came out. I love them. I use them as DVR's and for Netflix and also have subscriptions for some internet shows from Revision3. I guess my mind is too simple to realize what I'm missing!


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## belunos (Sep 19, 2002)

rrwcm said:


> I have had 2 Premiers since they first came out. I love them. I use them as DVR's and for Netflix and also have subscriptions for some internet shows from Revision3. I guess my mind is too simple to realize what I'm missing!


It's just that you haven't tried anything better. It's definitely not the 1 box solution I was hoping for. The netlfix integration is atrocious, and the lack of dlna support is.. well it's not astounding, but it is disappointing.

Honestly, I don't even feel it does DVR better than anyone else at this point. Surely better than moto cable boxes, but I feel like Direct HD DVR boxes did the core dvr stuff better. And I haven't used a Dish box, but I've always been impressed when I saw them.

I'm really not trying to bash Tivo, I'm actually happy with my premiere, but it's definitely not as whiz-bang as the evangelists are making it out to be.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> do you have a source for that statement. I recall TiVoStephen telling you before that the statement was incorrect and that TiVo did not outsource such positions.


I'm too lazy to search for TiVoStephen's exact comment, but IIRC it was that, more or less, TiVo does the majority of its engineering work in the USA. He did not contradict TiVo's statements to the SEC. But you asked for "a source" for my statements, and I will gladly provide those links for you.

There's absolutely no question that TiVo outsources engineering. They have made that perfectly clear in their reports to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. Here's what TiVo had to say about it in their last 10-K (roughly equivalent to an annual report) to the SEC:

_We have from time-to-time *outsourced engineering* work related to the design, development, and manufacturing of our products. We have and expect to in the future work with companies located in jurisdictions outside of the United States, including, but not limited to, *Taiwan, India, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and Mexico.*_​
bolded emphasis mine

So, who do I believe? A random TiVo employee posting on a random web site, or the statements of TiVo's CEO and their CFO in their annual report? Before answering, remember that under Sarbanes-Oxley, CEOs can go to jail for lying. Here's what Tommy boy had to say:

_Certification of Chief Executive Officer

Pursuant to Section 302 of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002

I, Thomas Rogers, certify that:

1. I have reviewed this annual report on Form 10-K of TiVo Inc.;

2. Based on my knowledge, *this report does not contain any untrue statement of a material fact or omit to state a material fact* necessary to make the statements made, in light of the circumstances under which such statements were made, not misleading with respect to the period covered by this report;_​
bolded emphasis mine

Hey, I'm just trying to understand why TiVo's software sucks. I'd like to believe that a large part of the problem is outsourcing, but sadly it's likely that the majority of the problem is in Alviso.


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## Schmye Bubbula (Oct 14, 2004)

"*Why TiVo sucks (but is still better than all the other alternatives)*"

(57 minutes audio)


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Schmye Bubbula said:


> "*Why TiVo sucks (but is still better than all the other alternatives)*"
> 
> (57 minutes audio)


 Nothing happens when I hit play. No error messages and no help on the page. Using IE8.

BTW, I agree with the statement. Most of the "sucking" I experience is related to Tuning Adapter's so there's no way to be sure whether it's TiVo or the Cable Co that sucks. The entire CableCARD/Tuning Adapter architecture sucks from an implementation/reliability standpoint. Pick any other DVR and do some forum reading about it and there is lots of smoke indicating they suck too. The only way you find out for sure is to try one and that gets kind of tiresome.


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## Schmye Bubbula (Oct 14, 2004)

dlfl said:


> Nothing happens when I hit play. No error messages and no help on the page. Using IE8.


Alternatively, there's a direct download link for the .mp3 (27 MB) right under the Play button for those whose choice of web browsers can't handle the audio player. (It's the Open Source JW Player 5.4, a Flash & HTML5 Video Player for FLV, H.264, MP3 and YouTube Videos.)

There's nothing in this presentation that everyone here doesn't already know, but it's a *very *lively & interesting discussion of the overall mess that TV has become in spite of the promises of the Digital Revolution, and not just about TiVo. I strongly recommend listening; I promise you won't feel your time has been wasted.


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## DFergATL (May 31, 2005)

I have to agree. They really are really trying to sell themselves as a "one box" solution, but the parts that are not DVR, are in bad need of updating and fixing. Have been waiting at least two years for them to fix the bugs in the Youtube app. Now, suddenly, it can take 7 hours to download an amazon VOD. have had my dsl checked and everything, just Amaon on Tivo is the problem. Amazon says it's a Tivo issue, Tivo says it is an Amazon issue. Neither will fix it. I still have a Tivo but have not recommended to anyone for the last few years. Just too may unfixed bugs.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> _We have from time-to-time *outsourced engineering* work related to the design, development, and manufacturing of our products. We have and expect to in the future work with companies located in jurisdictions outside of the United States, including, but not limited to, *Taiwan, India, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and Mexico.*_​


my guess would be these are the companies that manufacture the boxes for them.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

HiDefGator said:


> my guess would be these are the companies that manufacture the boxes for them.


No, I could see Taiwan or Mexico for manufacturing. Heck, I think they do much of their manufacturing in Mexico.

But Ukraine? They aren't building the boxes in the Ukraine, they are paying for software development in the former USSR. Similarly, it seems more likely that Tivo has software development in the UK and India rather than manufacturing lines for consumer electronics.


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