# Game of Thrones s06e03 - "Oathbreaker"



## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Tower of Joy up in this piece! And the Sword of the Morning is everything I hoped for and more.


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## mrpope (Jan 13, 2006)

Since Jon died, his watch is over.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

I'm wondering how he can be legitimized as a Stark, within the laws of the realm. I thought it's only by royal decree but I could be wrong.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

RegBarc said:


> I'm wondering how he can be legitimized as a Stark, within the laws of the realm. I thought it's only by royal decree but I could be wrong.


He doesn't have to be, if Lyanna and Rhaegar eloped. It looks like Bran's next trip back will be the origin of Jon?


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

I'd think Robert's rebellion removes any legal claim to the throne by a Targareyn child. That includes Dany and Jon. Since the children born to Cersei are all bastards born to incest and Stannis is dead, wouldn't that leave just Gendry? I know he's also a bastard but his back muscles have got to be jacked after all that rowing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

RegBarc said:


> I'd think Robert's rebellion removes any legal claim to the throne by a Targareyn child.


Not really, as long as there are any Targaryens. The only reason he went unchallenged as long as he did was that the only two (known) Targaryens were overseas and out of reach. Well, OK, the one at the Wall, but he didn't count, and everybody had forgotten about him anyway.

A Targaryen has a better claim to the throne than a Baratheon.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I don't blame Jon for leaving. And hopefully he's headed to Winterfell.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> I don't blame Jon for leaving. And hopefully he's headed to Winterfell.


Although hopefully, he'll bring some friends...


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

I was so disappointed that they left us hanging with Bran's flashback. Grrrrr. What better time to tell us who Jon's mother was than on Mother's Day?  

Still a good episode, but I was so expecting some L+R=J satisfaction.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

pendragn said:


> I was so disappointed that they left us hanging with Bran's flashback. Grrrrr. What better time to tell us who Jon's mother was than on Mother's Day?
> 
> Still a good episode, but I was so expecting some L+R=J satisfaction.


I don't need any confirmation. It's already a foregone conclusion. They're just stringing along the book readers because they know you guys have been dying to find this out for years.

I'm glad Jon is leaving the Watch, but I'm. It sure where he'll go. He knows better than anyone the threat that's approaching the Wall. I don't think he'll leave the Night's Watch to deal with that by themselves. And clearly he can't go take Winterfell by himself.

Speaking of Winterfell, I would not want to be in Rickon or Osha's shoes right about now. Also, Dany doesn't seem to be in a very good situation. It will be interesting to see how she gets free from the Dosh Khaleen.

This was the first time they've shown us that Varys's "little birds" were children. Was that known in the books, or is that new info for everyone?

Tommen is so weak, just letting himself be manipulated by the High Sparrow. If Tommen doesn't get free from that guy's grasp, pretty soon he'll have Tommen voluntarily testifying against Cercei.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Flashback dude gets an A+ for getting his Sean Bean studies down pat.

--Carlos V.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Do we know who the inhuman woman hanging out with Max Von Tree-dow is?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Also, Dany doesn't seem to be in a very good situation. It will be interesting to see how she gets free from the Dosh Khaleen.


I suspect it involves a dragon.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't need any confirmation. It's already a foregone conclusion.


I totally agree. It's as obvious as Jon Snow coming back from the dead.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

How did the Boars head demonstrate that this was Rickon?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Wasn't it his wolf?


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> How did the Boars head demonstrate that this was Rickon?


I didn't think that was a Boar's head - I thought that was his wolf.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I didn't even remember who Rickon was but I was ready to throw my shoe at the tv when he and the woman I don't remember either showed up as the next potential Ramsay torture victims.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

SullyND said:


> Wasn't it his wolf?


That was his Direwolf, Shaggy Dog.

Apparently Direwolfs have about same life span as a Stark. At this point, there are only one known to be alive: Ghost, Jon's Direwolf. Two others are probably still alive, but we have not seen them in a while: Summer (Bran) & Nymeria (Arya)


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I didn't even remember who Rickon was but I was ready to throw my shoe at the tv when he and the woman I don't remember either showed up as the next potential Ramsay torture victims.


 yeah no kidding. More FF coming up.

Thanks for clearing up my confusion over boars head versus dire wolf. I thought I saw a tusk, but that must have been the convenient carrying hook.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Does Davos know what's happened to Stannis? Does he know what Stannis and Melisandra did to Shireen?


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Did we see how the older Lord Umber died? I don't remember that.

Man, these lords must have been terrible parents to raise such horrible kids...


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

One thing confused me. Who was it that helped Ned Stark in Bran's vision? The one who stabbed the back. Was that supposed to be Robert or is it too early in the story for Robert?


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> One thing confused me. Who was it that helped Ned Stark in Bran's vision? The one who stabbed the back. Was that supposed to be Robert or is it too early in the story for Robert?


That was Lord Howland Reed, who was Jojen and Meera's father (they were helping Bran get north of the wall and Jojen was killed in the season finale; Meera was the one moping around in the snow last week). Howland was one of Ned's best friends and they fought together during the war that put Robert on the throne.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> This was the first time they've shown us that Varys's "little birds" were children. Was that known in the books, or is that new info for everyone?


That was Qyburn's way of gathering intel. Did he say that's the same way Varys does it? I didn't think so.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

NoThru22 said:


> That was Qyburn's way of gathering intel. Did he say that's the same way Varys does it? I didn't think so.


Absolutely. Varys talked of his little birds then we cut to Qyburn talking to the children. He/they said that they got sweets for the information they gave Varys. Qyburn responded by giving them sweets and telling them to bring him information.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Dear God:

Please. I beg you. Let's not spend the rest of this season with Jon Snow trying to find himself and wandering the North unsure of what to do. Please don't make me see know-nothing small-penis Jon moping around, frowning, and feeling sorry for himself.

That alone would make me look forward to the Ramsey torture scenes with Rickon and Asha.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> That was Qyburn's way of gathering intel. Did he say that's the same way Varys does it? I didn't think so.


Yes, according to Qyburn those were the kids Varys used. Qyburn was "taking them over" in this episode.

But I'm not sure all the little birds were kids...didn't Varys use prostitutes once? (As little bird, that is, not, well, you know, obviously!)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yes, according to Oyburn those were the kids Varys used. Oyburn was "taking them over" in this episode.
> 
> But I'm not sure all the little birds were kids...didn't Varys use prostitutes once? (As little bird, that is, not, well, you know, obviously!)


Absolutely. Rose paid for the betrayal with her life, for example.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> That was Qyburn's way of gathering intel. Did he say that's the same way Varys does it? I didn't think so.


In the conversation with the kid, the kid talks about Varys and how he gave them candy when they had information. (He doesn't mention Varys by name as I recall. As I remember it, he referenced the bald guy but that's probably just how I stored it in memory.)


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Girl - "Will Lord Varys ever come back?"

Boy - "He called us his little birds."


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

So that's at least twice referencing this world is using English as the common tongue (graffiti at Mereen, Gilly's "see" and "sea"). Do the book ever mention the actual language used?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

How much time has passed in the last few seasons? I thought the last we saw Rickon he was young...7 or 8 years old at most. This episode he looked like a teenager to me.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

RegBarc said:


> And the Sword of the Morning is everything I hoped for and more.


What/who is Sword of the Morning? Was that the badass 2-sworded knight that almost killed all 5 of them?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Apparently, about five years have passed since the series began.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> What/who is Sword of the Morning? Was that the badass 2-sworded knight that almost killed all 5 of them?


If someone would be so kind, I could use an explanation of who Stark was fighting in the flashback scene.

I know it was something to do with the rebellion, so presumably someone loyal to the mad king. What tower was this, and where? I assume the speculation is that Jon Snow's mother is in that tower.

I thought I recalled Stark asking badass knight about his (Stark's) sister. Wasn't Stark's sister killed by the mad king, at king's landing? Wasn't that what started the whole rebellion?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

pendragn said:


> I was so disappointed that they left us hanging with Bran's flashback. Grrrrr. What better time to tell us who Jon's mother was than on Mother's Day?
> 
> Still a good episode, but I was so expecting some L+R=J satisfaction.





Spoiler



I think this episode pretty much sealed it for book readers. There are still show only fans who have no clue yet why that tower is important, who it impacts, and what it means for everyone in Westoros. A part of me wishes I could have avoided the books until now, because from the perspective of the uninitiated there is a big question that will be answered later, and it will be very suspenseful getting there. For the rest of us, last night was all we needed to know. Something important happened in that tower, the clues have been there all along, and with Jon back there is no doubt he is a Targayan/Stark love child.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't need any confirmation. It's already a foregone conclusion. They're just stringing along the book readers because they know you guys have been dying to find this out for years.


I disagree. From the perspective of people totally in the dark, last night was somewhat of a mystery. Book readers got all the confirmation they need.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> This was the first time they've shown us that Varys's "little birds" were children. Was that known in the books, or is that new info for everyone?





Spoiler



That is revealed as are a couple of other tricks Varys used.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Do we know who the inhuman woman hanging out with Max Von Tree-dow is?


Her name is Leaf, and she is one of the children of the forest. They are kind of like elves in Westoros.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> How did the Boars head demonstrate that this was Rickon?


That was a direwolf's head, Shaggydog (Rickon's Direwolf).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smbaker said:


> I thought I recalled Stark asking badass knight about his (Stark's) sister. Wasn't Stark's sister killed by the mad king, at king's landing? Wasn't that what started the whole rebellion?


No, according to Ned she was kidnapped and raped by Prince Rhaegar, the Mad King's son and heir. The rebellion was started when Ned's family and friends went to the Mad King demanding satisfaction, and he had them murdered. What we saw this week was the beginning of Ned's rescue of his sister after the war had ended.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Apparently, about five years have passed since the series began. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline


So, winter hasn't come for 5 years.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> What/who is Sword of the Morning? Was that the badass 2-sworded knight that almost killed all 5 of them?


Yes. Ser Arthur Dane was titled "The Sword of the Morning" because of his sword, named "Dawn", which was forged from a fallen star. He was a member of the Kingsguard for the last Targaryen. He was considered the greatest swordsman alive at the time. The fight between him and Ned Stark is famous... but of course it was told by those who survived 



smbaker said:


> If someone would be so kind, I could use an explanation of who Stark was fighting in the flashback scene.
> 
> I know it was something to do with the rebellion, so presumably someone loyal to the mad king. What tower was this, and where? I assume the speculation is that Jon Snow's mother is in that tower.
> 
> I thought I recalled Stark asking badass knight about his (Stark's) sister. Wasn't Stark's sister killed by the mad king, at king's landing? Wasn't that what started the whole rebellion?


That scene was at the end of the rebellion after the mad king had been defeated. The Red Tower is in Dorne (where the Sand Snakes etc live). Ned and his bannermen found out that Dane was there and believed they might have Lyanna, Ned's sister with them.

And what Rob said


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

smbaker said:


> If someone would be so kind, I could use an explanation of who Stark was fighting in the flashback scene.
> 
> I know it was something to do with the rebellion, so presumably someone loyal to the mad king. What tower was this, and where? I assume the speculation is that Jon Snow's mother is in that tower.
> 
> I thought I recalled Stark asking badass knight about his (Stark's) sister. Wasn't Stark's sister killed by the mad king, at king's landing? Wasn't that what started the whole rebellion?


Ned was fighting two members of the old Kingsguard (before Robert formed his new Kingsguard). Their duty was to protect the Targaryan's just like the current Kingsguard does.

After the death of Rhaegar Targaryan and his father the mad King, Ned Stark rode south to Dorne to a place calle dthe Tower of Joy (where this scene took place). There he meets two members of the Kingsguard who for whatever reason Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna, Ned's sister, from harm. Ned is asking the one, Arthur Dayne, known as the sword of the morning, where she is.

Ned is very nearly killed by Arthur, and is only saved by his good friend, Howland Reed (Jojen and Meera's father).


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> So, winter hasn't come for 5 years.


Longer than that. Bran was born in summer and has never seen a winter.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Unbeliever said:


> Flashback dude gets an A+ for getting his Sean Bean studies down pat.
> 
> --Carlos V.


I thought the exact thing. Of course it was telegraphed a lot, but as soon as that scene started I mentioned to my wife, "Well there's Ned." It might have been the hair that was the most obvious clue.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

RegBarc said:


> Tower of Joy up in this piece! And the Sword of the Morning is everything I hoped for and more.


I don't know what either of those mean? Seriously.

Is this from the Ned Stark retrospective?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

pendragn said:


> I was so disappointed that they left us hanging with Bran's flashback. Grrrrr. What better time to tell us who Jon's mother was than on Mother's Day?


Daenerys wasn't rescued by her dragons either, so perhaps Mother's Day in Westeros and Essos is a week or two after ours. 

But the fact that what they showed was even important enough to be shown can really only mean one thing unless they were only showing us what they did solely to mislead viewers. Since they have never done that with any other scene, I would say that what they showed in this episode was confirmation enough, even if they didn't actually show us anything. In fact, Tree Dude specifically not wanting Bran to see any more actually says quite a lot.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anyone hear Pycelle fart as the Mountain, Cersei entered the room. LOL!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Absolutely. Varys talked of his little birds then we cut to Qyburn talking to the children. He/they said that they got sweets for the information they gave Varys. Qyburn responded by giving them sweets and telling them to bring him information.


So Varys and Qyburn work together on intel, and always have?

Or did Qyburn start his own side-business?

And Cersei sure seems to know all about it? Did she know all about Varys' operation? He seems to pride himself on being the only one who knows how it all works.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> I don't know what either of those mean? Seriously.
> 
> Is this from the Ned Stark retrospective?


Yep. The Tower of Joy is where Lyanna is being held; the Sword of Morning is the guy with two swords.


uncdrew said:


> So Varys and Qyburn work together on intel, and always have?
> 
> Or did Qyburn start his own side-business?


My assumption is that Qyburn is now taking over for Varys, including what he can find of Varys's intelligence network. Qyburn is Cersei's creature, so I guess what he knows, she knows. The same was almost certainly not true of Varys.


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## 6079 Smith W (Oct 2, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> Anyone hear Pycelle fart as the Mountain, Cersei entered the room. LOL!


[Fart noise] (or something similar) was actually in the closed captions in that scene.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm glad Jon is leaving the Watch, but I'm. It sure where he'll go. He knows better than anyone the threat that's approaching the Wall. I don't think he'll leave the Night's Watch to deal with that by themselves. And clearly he can't go take Winterfell by himself.


I think Jon is going to leave the Night's Watch specifically because he does not want them to deal with the White Walkers by themselves. He was bound by his oath to stay with them before, but now he is free to work in uniting all the people of Westeros against what is coming.

Of course, the only help he has is a limited number of the Free Folk, and I'm not sure how gung ho they would be about helping him take over the North. Perhaps they would be more willing to follow him now that they have seen him rise from the dead. But even with the help of every one of them who could fight, Jon is going to have a tough time defeating the Boltons and their allies. He only brought 5000 of them through the wall, and that included women and children.

However, unlike the Free Folk trying to take over places on their own, Jon could help them organize and perhaps bring in houses that had not allied themselves with the Boltons, or that had only reluctantly done so under threat. It would be interesting to see what kind of deal Jon makes between the Free Folk and the houses regarding who gets what land when this is all over.

Another option is potentially bringing Daenerys in with her army and dragons. I'm not sure who now controls Stannis' ships: the Night's Watch, the Iron Bank, or the sellswords who fled Stannis' army. But if Jon somehow is able to use them, he could provide the ships that Daenerys now needs. Hopefully once Daenerys is rescued, Varys can finally tell her how Ned Stark stood up to the King when he ordered the murder of her and her unborn child.

I was hoping that Barristan Selmy had known that, and would have told her when she was discussing it with him. But apparently word of that did not spread very far. At the very least, he was there when Ned walked out of the room where Robert was lying on his deathbed, and told Varys to cancel the order to kill her. But apparently he didn't read anything into that other than Robert changing his mind on his own.

On the other hand, Daenerys might not get over to Westeros until winter has completely taken over. King Aerys II might have been mad, but perhaps not completely wrong. I wonder if he saw what the people of King's Landing would become, and that is why he wanted to "burn them all". I'm also curious as to what happens in Essos when winter comes.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

They even talk about the battle (Trident) where Prince Rhaegar was killed by Robert Baratheon. The kings guard said if they were there he would still be alive and the traitors would have been killed.

As for the story, it is told by the winners. Lyanna Stark most likely loved Prince Rhaegar, and was not kidnapped or raped. She loved him and left willingly as was hinted earlier by Petyr Baelish in the crypts of Winterfell to Lady Sansa.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> Anyone hear Pycelle fart as the Mountain, Cersei entered the room. LOL!


I did!

I thought it was me. I wasn't quite sure.

Dolby 5.1 and all.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

dtle said:


> So that's at least twice referencing this world is using English as the common tongue (graffiti at Mereen, Gilly's "see" and "sea").


It was also referenced back in Season 3 when Davos pronounced knight "kah-nigit" while learning how to read. That implied that not only was the speech the same, but also the spelling. It could mean English is officially their tongue or that the story is "translating" ideas in addition to words.

I don't know if the book mentions anything specific, but as far as the show is concerned, I think it is just done that way for convenience, much like having completely alien species in sci-fi shows speak English. In many cases, we are not even told what their "real language" is.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yep. The Tower of Joy is where Lyanna is being held; the Sword of Morning is the guy with two swords.
> 
> My assumption is that Qyburn is now taking over for Varys, including what he can find of Varys's intelligence network. Qyburn is Cersei's creature, so I guess what he knows, she knows. The same was almost certainly not true of Varys.


Thanks. 

So Ned has sex with his sister? Gross. I used to like this show.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> Anyone hear Pycelle fart as the Mountain, Cersei entered the room. LOL!


Damn, I thought that was thunder from the T-storm I got last night!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Pycelle must have terrible hearing and vision. How did he keep talking while it was clear people were entering the room and all the other members of the Small Council were turning to look?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> So Ned has sex with his sister? Gross. I used to like this show.


Prince Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna and then went off to fight in the war. He left two of the Kingsguard there to guard the tower because Lyanna was carrying a royal heir.

I suspect in an upcoming episode we'll see another flashback where Lyanna makes Ned promise that he'll never reveal the child's true parentage before she dies. That's why Ned tells everyone the child is his bastard, even though everyone says it goes against everything he stood for to cheat on Catelyn.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Pycelle must have terrible *hearing and vision*. How did he keep talking while it was clear people were entering the room and all the other members of the Small Council were turning to look?


He's pretty old and those are the first things to go.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> So Ned has sex with his sister? Gross. I used to like this show.


I doubt that Noble Ned would do something like that. We don't know that she was the only one in the tower. In fact, hearing her screaming, at the very least there were probably people either helping her or hurting her.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I take the screaming as labor pains.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Prince Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna and then went off to fight in the war. He left two of the Kingsguard there to guard the tower because Lyanna was carrying a royal heir.
> 
> I suspect in an upcoming episode we'll see another flashback where Lyanna makes Ned promise that he'll never reveal the child's true parentage before she dies. That's why Ned tells everyone the child is his bastard, even though everyone says it goes against everything he stood for to cheat on Catelyn.


Ah, thank you. He probably told his wife though, right? And she probably told a little bird...



BitbyBlit said:


> I doubt that Noble Ned would do something like that. We don't know that she was the only one in the tower. In fact, hearing her screaming, at the very least there were probably people either helping her or hurting her.


Phew.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Prince Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna and then went off to fight in the war.


My question is whether they ran off together (in which case Jon is simply a Targaryen bastard instead of a Stark bastard), or eloped (in which case Jon is the legitimate Targaryen claimant to the throne).

Rhaegar was married at the time, but have we ever heard that bigamy is illegal in Westeros?


uncdrew said:


> Ah, thank you. He probably told his wife though, right? And she probably told a little bird...


I doubt it...she really, really hated Jon. And if she knew the truth, she would have had no reason to.

Somebody must have known, though. If they eloped, perhaps the person who married them..?


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> I doubt that Noble Ned would do something like that. We don't know that she was the only one in the tower. In fact, hearing her screaming, at the very least there were probably people either helping her or hurting her.


Yeah, Ned is ridiculously noble, to an (arguable) fault. An example of that was in the fight he got in with Jaime Lannister in the first season (taking responsibility for his wife's arrest of Tyrion Lannister). Also, in the fight in this episode, he took credit for the death of the Sword of the Morning. If he had told the truth the Howlen Reed stabbed him in the back, it would have ruined Reed forever. Stabbing someone in the back, in that universe at least, is pretty much the lowest thing you can do as a highborn.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

For those that want videos about GoT that explain each episode, predict what will happen, compare what happened on TV vs the books, and explain fan theories, check out this youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/emergencyawesome It is full of spoilers, so enter at your own risk.

And we got to see Daenerys sideboob!


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

nickels said:


> They even talk about the battle (Trident) where Prince Rhaegar was killed by Robert Baratheon. The kings guard said if they were there he would still be alive and the traitors would have been killed.
> 
> As for the story, it is told by the winners. Lyanna Stark most likely loved Prince Rhaegar, and was not kidnapped or raped. She loved him and left willingly as was hinted earlier by Petyr Baelish in the crypts of Winterfell to Lady Sansa.


It's a common theme of the books, that's been often repeated in the show, that each off-screen story is told by perspective of an unreliable narrator. If you listen to Barriston Selmy tell stories of Rhaegar, he has only glowing things to say about him. Ned, on the other hands, was more than happy to see him dispatched to oblivion.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> My question is whether they ran off together (in which case Jon is simply a Targaryen bastard instead of a Stark bastard), or eloped (in which case Jon is the legitimate Targaryen claimant to the throne).
> 
> Rhaegar was married at the time, but have we ever heard that bigamy is illegal in Westeros?
> 
> ...


Or a friend who happened to be there that day, who just so happened to save Ned's life.

Who also happens to be the father of the girl Bran i straveling with...


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

RegBarc said:


> It's a common theme of the books, that's been often repeated in the show, that each off-screen story is told by perspective of an unreliable narrator. If you listen to Barriston Selmy tell stories of Rhaegar, he has only glowing things to say about him. Ned, on the other hands, was more than happy to see him dispatched to oblivion.


If we're going to do this, Ned actually had a respectable opinion of Rhaegar, also.

He never voiced it, because his good friend Robert Baratheon absolutely hated the guy.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> If we're going to do this, Ned actually had a respectable opinion of Rhaegar, also.
> 
> He never voiced it, because his good friend Robert Baratheon absolutely hated the guy.


My bad, I actually meant King Robert when he was thinking back in Season 1 to what Rhaegar did to Lyanna. Ned never really addressed his opinion of him in the show. I don't think at least.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Neil Patrick Harris as young Ned?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

RegBarc said:


> Yeah, Ned is ridiculously noble, to an (arguable) fault. An example of that was in the fight he got in with Jaime Lannister in the first season (taking responsibility for his wife's arrest of Tyrion Lannister). Also, in the fight in this episode, he took credit for the death of the Sword of the Morning. If he had told the truth the Howlen Reed stabbed him in the back, it would have ruined Reed forever. Stabbing someone in the back, in that universe at least, is pretty much the lowest thing you can do as a highborn.


Interesting. So win/win for Ned. He doesn't get killed AND he can take credit for the kill knowing Reed would never tell the truth.

I'm pretty noble and I take my sword-fighting seriously. But you kill the dude who is going to kill your mate, no matter how. I think Reed is the hero, and I will now be on his side.

But I did wonder where he came from. I thought Ned was the last standing. Did Reed hide or was knocked out, conveniently recovering just in time?


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Plus, double sword dude took on 5 at once. But like a bad karate movie, they attacked him in series. If he could be stabbed in the back so easily, you'd think one of the dudes with a sword might have taken a whack at him while he was otherwise engaged.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Also in regards to the possibility of Ned keeping Jon's true lineage a secret, remember that Robert wanted every Targaryen killed. So there absolutely could not be any chance that info would slip out. Also, at the time this would have happened, how long had Ned at Catelyn been married? My recollection was that they weren't together very long before Ned went off to help Robert. So at that point, yes she's his wife, but how much can he really trust her?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> knocked out, conveniently recovering just in time?


That's how I took it.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Also in regards to the possibility of Ned keeping Jon's true lineage a secret, remember that Robert wanted every Targaryen killed. So there absolutely could not be any chance that info would slip out. Also, at the time this would have happened, how long had Ned at Catelyn been married? My recollection was that they weren't together very long before Ned went off to help Robert. So at that point, yes she's his wife, but how much can he really trust her?


Makes sense. Ned would keep a secret to just himself.

I have lots of secrets, problem is lots of people know about them.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> Interesting. So win/win for Ned. He doesn't get killed AND he can take credit for the kill knowing Reed would never tell the truth.
> 
> I'm pretty noble and I take my sword-fighting seriously. But you kill the dude who is going to kill your mate, no matter how. I think Reed is the hero, and I will now be on his side.
> 
> But I did wonder where he came from. I thought Ned was the last standing. Did Reed hide or was knocked out, conveniently recovering just in time?


He was the first guy struck down, just not mortally wounded like the rest.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> I disagree. From the perspective of people totally in the dark, last night was somewhat of a mystery. Book readers got all the confirmation they need.


I disagree with your disagreement. The show left plenty of clues as to the identity of Jon Snow. If people have not figured it out and are still in the dark, they're not paying attention.

I'm not a book reader and I figured it out back in season 1 or 2...


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Also in regards to the possibility of Ned keeping Jon's true lineage a secret, remember that Robert wanted every Targaryen killed. So there absolutely could not be any chance that info would slip out. Also, at the time this would have happened, how long had Ned at Catelyn been married? My recollection was that they weren't together very long before Ned went off to help Robert. So at that point, yes she's his wife, but how much can he really trust her?


They had been married for a year anmd she was pregnant with Robb at the time of war. And they were not well known to each other at that time.

So, arranged marriage
Knock boots
off to war
Come home with bastard baby

All within 18-24 months.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I disagree with your disagreement. The show left plenty of clues as to the identity of Jon Snow. If people have not figured it out and are still in the dark, they're not paying attention.
> 
> I'm not a book reader and I figured it out back in season 1 or 2...


I still don't know. Until reading this thread, I thought it was Sansa.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I disagree with your disagreement. The show left plenty of clues as to the identity of Jon Snow. If people have not figured it out and are still in the dark, they're not paying attention.
> 
> I'm not a book reader and I figured it out back in season 1 or 2...


Which is cool and all, but not everyone is as observant as you, brah. Nor is everyone plugged into a forum like this were the theory has been out there _for years._

The showrunners still have a story to tell. Drawing this out and getting the viewer interested in Bran's visions makes sense from that perspective.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of Winterfell, I would not want to be in Rickon or Osha's shoes right about now.


 At this point, Rickon may just be a red shirt -- Ramsey's last bit of ugliness before he's crushed by Jon. Because Ramsey'll be too impatient and short-sighted to save Rickon as a bargaining chip.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I hope that Umber has a plan, and Osha and Rickon are in on it. But I don't really think it is likely, because even with a plan, putting Osha and Rickon into the Bastard's hands, even temporarily, would be crazy.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> I hope that Umber has a plan, *and Osha and Rickon are in on it*. But I don't really think it is likely, because even with a plan, putting Osha and Rickon into the Bastard's hands, even temporarily, would be crazy.


With Shaggydog dead I seriously doubt that.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I hope that Umber has a plan, and Osha and Rickon are in on it. But I don't really think it is likely, because even with a plan, putting Osha and Rickon into the Bastard's hands, even temporarily, would be crazy.


Yeah, I've heard of some speculation that it wasn't really ShaggyDog's head and that Umber is pulling a con on Ramsey, but I don't think there's any way he pulls a con but puts the real Rickon in harm's way.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> With Shaggydog dead I seriously doubt that.


Also, from the look on Rikkon's face, he was scared ****less, and I've never seen any sign that the character was good enough to fake a look like that.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I suppose the only way it could work is if that was not really Rickon, and not really Shaggy Dog's head. But even then, it would be a crazy plan, putting Osha into the Bastard's hands. And it would be a dirty trick of the showrunners if that were not really Rickon, even though it is the same actor.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Where has Master Rickon been the last few years?


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Where has Master Rickon been the last few years?


Hanging out with Osha.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Interesting. So win/win for Ned. He doesn't get killed AND he can take credit for the kill knowing Reed would never tell the truth.
> 
> I'm pretty noble and I take my sword-fighting seriously. But you kill the dude who is going to kill your mate, no matter how. I think Reed is the hero, and I will now be on his side.
> 
> But I did wonder where he came from. I thought Ned was the last standing. Did Reed hide or was knocked out, conveniently recovering just in time?


I'll have to re-watch the fight, but I thought he sustained some sort of wound to his abdomen towards the beginning. Could be wrong.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

RegBarc said:


> I'll have to re-watch the fight, but I thought he sustained some sort of wound to his abdomen towards the beginning. Could be wrong.


Slash across the upper chest, like a missed neck slash.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I was disappointed with the portrayal of Dayne's fighting.

It should have been a man who was a master of fighting with his (single) longsword, not some guy flailing around with two longswords, which is just absurd. 

Fighting with two short swords was rarely the most effective way to duel (you would do better with a longsword or a dueling sword in your dominant hand, and a buckler or dagger in your other hand), but it would at least have been plausible. Two longswords is just silly.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

ct1 said:


> uncdrew said:
> 
> 
> > Where has Master Rickon been the last few years?
> ...


Just before Bran went under The Wall, he convinced Osha to take Rickon to the hall of their loyal and strongest bannerman, House Umber... and the son of that lord is who showed up with them in tow in this episode.

Don't know why they didn't get sent to Howland's. Maybe they didn't think they could get there without Jojen or Meera to help.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Slash across the upper chest, like a missed neck slash.


He sure recovered well.

I expected him to fall down dead after delivering the blow that saved Ned. Instead, he rushed off to check on his other men. Like he wasn't hurt at all.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

madscientist said:


> Just before Bran went under The Wall, he convinced Osha to take Rickon to the hall of their loyal and strongest bannerman, House Umber... and the son of that lord is who showed up with them in tow in this episode.
> 
> Don't know why they didn't get sent to Howland's. Maybe they didn't think they could get there without Jojen or Meera to help.


Thank you. I don't remember that at all. I suck at remembering things that... what was I saying?

Anyway, Bran thought they'd be safe at House Umber, but that house (or at least one person living there) felt turning them over to Bolton was the right play. Probably right (for them).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> I was disappointed with the portrayal of Dayne's fighting.
> 
> It should have been a man who was a master of fighting with his (single) longsword, not some guy flailing around with two longswords, which is just absurd.
> 
> Fighting with two short swords was rarely the most effective way to duel (you would do better with a longsword or a dueling sword in your dominant hand, and a buckler or dagger in your other hand), but it would at least have been plausible. Two longswords is just silly.


Spoken like someone who will never be the best swordsman ever!


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Thank you. I don't remember that at all. I suck at remembering things that... what was I saying?
> 
> Anyway, Bran thought they'd be safe at House Umber, but that house (or at least one person living there) felt turning them over to Bolton was the right play. Probably right (for them).


I think there's a shot this is all some sort of ruse (Roose, ha) to somehow get Winterfell back. I don't know, but I am holding out some hope.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Neil Patrick Harris as young Ned?


Glad I'm not the only one!


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## mbhuff (Jan 25, 2004)

If you are wondering what "R+L=J" is about, or what everyone else is talking about on this thread, or already know, but want to know more:






Really good summary including diagrams


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

One thing I noticed right away was that Arthur Dayne actually successfully maneuvered the fighters so that they were all in front of him. They moved again, but he wasn't just doing the "bad karate movie fight one at a time" bit, he was actually controlling the fight intelligently.

I thought it was choreographed well. By moving the opponents around, he negates their numerical advantage and has them blocked by one another. 

He was clearly better than Ned. It'd be interesting to know if he was better than Jamie Lannister, back when he had both hands.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> One thing I noticed right away was that Arthur Dayne actually successfully maneuvered the fighters so that they were all in front of him. They moved again, but he wasn't just doing the "bad karate movie fight one at a time" bit, he was actually controlling the fight intelligently.


Not really. It was more like most of his opponents did not want to stab him in the back, even though they had the opportunity.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Not really. It was more like most of his opponents did not want to stab him in the back, even though they had the opportunity.


Because that's not honorable. Howland Reed only did it as a last resort, and notice how neither he nor Eddard ever told anyone about it, because he would have been thought of as a coward if people knew what he did.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Because that's not honorable. Howland Reed only did it as a last resort, and notice how neither he nor Eddard ever told anyone about it, because he would have been thought of as a coward if people knew what he did.


Yes, as usual for GoT, an over-developed sense of honor got a lot of men killed there.

That odd notion of honor certainly benefited Dayne, who did let people get behind him (actually, he had a huge blindspot given that helmet he was wearing -- I'd guess his field of view couldn't have been more than 120 degrees, and maybe less). And if having two longswords was really an advantage (which it should not be, but in the GoT world we are supposed to think that it was), then Dayne was not very honorable to fight with two swords when he was down to one opponent with one sword.

Too bad Ned's party did not have any pole arms. Or better yet, longbows.

I also don't understand why Ned did not have a shield, or even a buckler or dagger for his off hand.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Ereth said:


> He was clearly better than Ned. It'd be interesting to know if he was better than Jamie Lannister, back when he had both hands.


Probably.
I got the impression when watching the Jamie/Ned match that Jamie was starting to think that Ned was better than he when his man intervened.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I also don't understand why no one in Ned's party had shields, or even bucklers or daggers. If they all had shields, they should have been able to fight Dayne much more effectively. The men who attacked Brienne in the first episode had shields on their backs as they rode in. So certainly riding with a shield is not unknown to these people.


Watch it again. At least three of the men in Ned's party had shields and used them during the fight.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

john4200 said:


> Not really. It was more like most of his opponents did not want to stab him in the back, even though they had the opportunity.


No. He was spinning and dodging/blocking blows from all sides at the same time until he maneuvered out from in between all of them. As Ereth said I immediately noticed that there was actual strategy/footwork in the choreography vs the movie trope of only having the front guys attack.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Probably.
> I got the impression when watching the Jamie/Ned match that Jamie was starting to think that Ned was better than he when his man intervened.


Yeah, the fight that Jaime will always be known for consisted of him stabbing somebody in the back...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ned's sword seemed to be normal-sized (get your dirty minds off my post, you perverts!).

Did he not have Ice back then?

as for the fight between Ned and Jamie, they seemed evenly matched to me.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Ned's sword seemed to be normal-sized (get your dirty minds off my post, you perverts!).
> 
> Did he not have Ice back then?


I don't think Ice was ever a sword that he carried around and fought with. Too big.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Ned's sword seemed to be normal-sized (get your dirty minds off my post, you perverts!).
> 
> Did he not have Ice back then?
> 
> as for the fight between Ned and Jamie, they seemed evenly matched to me.


If you carefully look at first season, you can see him carrying around this same sword from the fight while in King's Landing. It's what he fought Jaime Lannister with. Ice is really a ceremonial sword.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> No. He was spinning and dodging/blocking blows from all sides at the same time until he maneuvered out from in between all of them. As Ereth said I immediately noticed that there was actual strategy/footwork in the choreography vs the movie trope of only having the front guys attack.


Yeah, that's the impression I got as well. Whoever choreographed that fight scene did a fantastic job.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

ahhh I'm so glad I came to read this thread, I was so confused during that entire flashback. I knew it was Ned and I knew who he was referring to by "my sister" but I was clueless who he was fighting and why. 

I was angry to see another direwolf be slaughtered. I was so nervous episode 1 for Ghost too. 

Also are we to believe by Arya getting her sight back that she really has become no-one or is this the "something else" he referred to before? 

"Good. Now go and fail again." I love Davos.


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## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

For those interested in more background on Robert's (Baratheon) Rebellion and how we got here the following depiction will clear things out. If you want to keep your knowledge strictly show based, don't click on the link.



http://imgur.com/jfhjD


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

ozzman73 said:


> For those interested in more background on Robert's (Baratheon) Rebellion and how we got here the following depiction will clear things out. If you want to keep your knowledge strictly show based, don't click on the link.
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/jfhjD


Bringing it back to the Tower of Joy fight in the show (compared to book stuff):



Spoiler



Where was the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard during that fight? Is he just being left out, or is he somewhere up the staircase?


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## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

RegBarc said:


> Bringing it back to the Tower of Joy fight in the show (compared to book stuff):
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I think, your guess is correct, most likely up the staircase


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

RegBarc said:


> Bringing it back to the Tower of Joy fight in the show (compared to book stuff):
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



My guess is he was simply cut from the show. While Gerold Hightower had some importance in the books with relation to Jaime Lannister and a few others, the battle at the Tower of Joy came down to Ned's relationship to the Dayne family (which I doubt the show will get into since it has no bearing on the ultimate events) and more importantly the fact that Dayne nearly killed him, and would have had it now been for Howland Reed.

I don't even think they named the other kingsguard member on the show, so it could have been Hightower or Whent.

As to Reed, I think his role in the books and in the show is more important, so it is important for people to understand now what relationship he and Ned had (close friends with Reed having saved Ned from certain death) so that any fan theories out there will make sense if Reed ends up in fact having secret knowledge about anyone.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Absolutely. Rose paid for the betrayal with her life, for example.


I thought it was Roz but I suppose she could have spelled it like you did.

This is my obligatory nitpick Anubys post so I can be subscribed to the thread.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Watch it again. At least three of the men in Ned's party had shields and used them during the fight.


You're right. I guess I was focusing on Ned. It is odd that Ned did not have a shield or something else for his off hand.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

ozzman73 said:


> For those interested in more background on Robert's (Baratheon) Rebellion and how we got here the following depiction will clear things out. If you want to keep your knowledge strictly show based, don't click on the link.
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/jfhjD


LOL - I've read the books 4 times and it's not until I follow this link that things are finally cleared up for me. Thanks much.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

When I'm a medieval swordsman of fine repute I will always have a few archers in my company, advised to stay back a bit and shoot people who are trying to kill me.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> When I'm a medieval swordsman of fine repute I will always have a few archers in my company, advised to stay back a bit and shoot people who are trying to kill me.


That's a good point. Ned and crew didn't seem to be particularly well armored, though Arthur Dayne clearly was.

Have we seen a bow that would penetrate the armor Dayne was wearing? A crossbow could, but I'm not sure the normal bows we've seen could, barring a fortunate shot in a weak spot.

Archers in the tower could have slaughtered Ned and his crew. Archers with Ned probably wouldn't have been very effective at all.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> That's a good point. Ned and crew didn't seem to be particularly well armored, though Arthur Dayne clearly was.


Dayne was only wearing a breast plate, back plate, and helmet. An archer could have shot him in the leg or the ass without needing the arrow to penetrate plate armor.

And we have seen crossbows multiple times on the show. Also, a longbow can penetrate plate armor as long as it is within 20 meters or so.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> I thought it was Roz but I suppose she could have spelled it like you did.
> 
> This is my obligatory nitpick Anubys post so I can be subscribed to the thread.


Isn't it sad when a nit-pick correction is wrong?

how embarrassing for you!

Her name is actually Ros. Not Roz. I used Rose; which is the way it's spelled in her native tongue; which I'm fluent in, of course. Certainly, no Westorosian would ever spell it as you suggest. That would be just silly!


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Isn't it sad when a nit-pick correction is wrong?
> 
> how embarrassing for you!
> 
> Her name is actually Ros. Not Roz. I used Rose; which is the way it's spelled in her native tongue; which I'm fluent in, of course. Certainly, no Westorosian would ever spell it as you suggest. That would be just silly!


_You're _just being silly now. I even admitted that she may spell it the way you did.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

goblue97 said:


> _You're _just being silly now. I even admitted that she may spell it the way you did.


What a silly genius.


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

PSA:


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Yes, as usual for GoT, an over-developed sense of honor got a lot of men killed there.
> 
> That odd notion of honor certainly benefited Dayne, who did let people get behind him (actually, he had a huge blindspot given that helmet he was wearing -- I'd guess his field of view couldn't have been more than 120 degrees, and maybe less). *And if having two longswords was really an advantage (which it should not be, but in the GoT world we are supposed to think that it was), then Dayne was not very honorable to fight with two swords when he was down to one opponent with one sword.*
> 
> ...


[emphasis mine]

It's not dishonorable to use your unique skills in combat. Most men don't fight with two swords because most men _can't_. There were plenty of swords lying about if Ned had felt inclined to even things up. But that's not his fighting style; he'd just wind up tangling his own blades on each other and getting killed.

I think that's supposed to be part of Dayne's fame, that he can effectively and advantageously wield two full long-swords in the first place. (Whether anyone could ever do that IRL is another question, but for the purposes of a fantasy show...)

What does bother me a bit is that Dayne is the Sword of the Morning because he carries a unique, irreplaceable sword of great renown --yet here he's wielding two swords that look practically identical.


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## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

TampaThunder said:


> LOL - I've read the books 4 times and it's not until I follow this link that things are finally cleared up for me. Thanks much.


You are welcome. It's amazing the world building that went into this show and books.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

dcheesi said:


> It's not dishonorable to use your unique skills in combat.
> 
> ....
> 
> What does bother me a bit is that Dayne is the Sword of the Morning because he carries a unique, irreplaceable sword of great renown --yet here he's wielding two swords that look practically identical.


It is not dishonorable to use your skills (unless your "unique skill" is lightning-fast backstabbing), but it *is* dishonorable to be better armed than your opponent. True, Ned could have picked up another sword (or better yet, a shield), but Dayne did not stop and give him that opportunity, nor did he offer to throw down one of his swords. Not very honorable.

As for Dayne's longswords, they did look to be the same length and size. But the sword that Dayne stuck in the dirt has a sun with rays emblem on the pommel. It is hard to see, but I do not think his other sword had that. Still, Dawn is supposed to be forged from star metal (i.e., heart of a fallen star, aka meteorite) and is supposed to look pale or white, but neither of Dayne's swords appeared to have an unusual color.

The sword Dayne stuck in the dirt. Note the sun and rays emblem on the pommel, which is distinct from the sun and spear emblem of house Martell.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

ozzman73 said:


> You are welcome. It's amazing the world building that went into this show and books.


That's for the links--although all the info on Robert's rebellion was in the books, it was carefully spread out one little tidbit at a time so no normal human could read the books and pick it all up. So we read again and again....


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Anubys said:


> as for the fight between Ned and Jamie, they seemed evenly matched to me.


I saw it this way:

During the first season, Jamie challenged Ned once or twice "just to see who's better" and Ned would decline saying that he didn't fight for sport, which Jamie takes as Ned not willing to back up his reputation as a swordsman.

So when they finally do fight, Jamie goes into it very confident that he can beat Ned.
But as the fight goes on, you can see the expression on Jamie's face change as he starts to realize that Ned is good swordsman.

A very good swordsman.

A very good swordsman whom he's not sure he can beat.

Which is very sobering for "The Best Swordsman in all of Westeros".

Which was part of the reason Jamie was upset at the man who intervened.
Because now he'll never know if he could have beaten Ned.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Yeah, I saw it the same way.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JYoung said:


> I saw it this way:
> 
> During the first season, Jamie challenged Ned once or twice "just to see who's better" and Ned would decline saying that he didn't fight for sport, which Jamie takes as Ned not willing to back up his reputation as a swordsman.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. That's exactly how I saw it as well. I don't think my post and yours are at odds (not implying that you thought they were at odds).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> _You're _just being silly now. I even admitted that she may spell it the way you did.


I'm glad you admit that you're wrong! I accept your backhanded apology. You need to now think thrice before trying to contradict me*



Rob Helmerichs said:


> What a silly genius.


You get me.

* inside joke


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Brieanne also seemed to hold her own with Jamie as well. 

Maybe Jamie just wasn't all that good at all.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

"Game of Thrones: The Musical," by Coldplay and the cast of GOT -






(Done for Red Nose Day)


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vertigo235 said:


> Brieanne also seemed to hold her own with Jamie as well.
> 
> Maybe Jamie just wasn't all that good at all.


She didn't hold her own, she beat the crap out of him.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

And didn't the hound handle her pretty well too? Or was that because he cheated?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> She didn't hold her own, she beat the crap out of him.


In is defense, he was not well fed, rested, and had not had a sword in hand for months.

Plus Brienne is built like a linebacker.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

danterner said:


> "Game of Thrones: The Musical," by Coldplay and the cast of GOT -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting, I somehow missed this last year. A little long but some really funny parts, especially in the last four or five minutes.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> In is defense, he was not well fed, rested, and had not had a sword in hand for months.
> 
> Plus Brienne is built like a linebacker.


And, if I remember correctly, his hands were shackled.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> In is defense, he was not well fed, rested, and had not had a sword in hand for months.





TampaThunder said:


> And, if I remember correctly, his hands were shackled.


Welcome to the Jaime Lannister excuse making society!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Welcome to the Jaime Lannister excuse making society!


I'm just saying, if he still had his good hand High Sparrow would be dead by now.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> I'm just saying, if he still had his good hand High Sparrow would be dead by now.


well, I don't know about the books...but for show-watchers only, it sure seems that Ned's opinion of Jaime was right on the money. Jaime was famous for his skills in the "entertainment" fights. That's is very different fighting than in real life/death fight or in war.

Ned was at least as good. Brienne beat him handily, excuses or not. The Hound fought Brienne almost to a draw; which means he, too, was better than Jaime. I doubt Jaime would've beaten Bronn, and he was just another hired gun in the right place at the right time. We know the Mountain is better than them all. Surely, the guy that almost killed the Mountain in that duel (I forget his name) was better than Jaime if he could beat the Mountain.

No doubt that Jaime could fight, but all indications on the show is that he was not half as good as his reputation made him out to be.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Surely, the guy that almost killed the Mountain in that duel (I forget his name) was better than Jaime if he could beat the Mountain.


Oberyn Martell.

But "could beat" is not transitive. If style A beats style B and style B beats style C, it doesn't imply that style A beats style C.

(And yes, Oberyn beat the Mountain. If his goal had been only to kill him, he would have been dead.)


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Anubys said:


> well, I don't know about the books...but for show-watchers only, it sure seems that Ned's opinion of Jaime was right on the money. Jaime was famous for his skills in the "entertainment" fights. That's is very different fighting than in real life/death fight or in war.
> 
> Ned was at least as good. Brienne beat him handily, excuses or not. The Hound fought Brienne almost to a draw; which means he, too, was better than Jaime. I doubt Jaime would've beaten Bronn, and he was just another hired gun in the right place at the right time. We know the Mountain is better than them all. Surely, the guy that almost killed the Mountain in that duel (I forget his name) was better than Jaime if he could beat the Mountain.
> 
> No doubt that Jaime could fight, but all indications on the show is that he was not half as good as his reputation made him out to be.


This logic is highly flawed.

It isn't excuses but real circumstances, that Jaime was considerably handicapped during his fight with Brienne. No matter how good you are at something, there are circumstances under which a "lesser" person could beat you that don't actually reflect on your skill.

We don't know that the mountain is better as we haven't see him in a true sword fight and the same goes for Oberyn as he wasn't using a sword.

Remember, Jaime's claim isn't the best fighter, most deadly, etc, he is supposed to be one of the best sword fighters. Those aren't the same thing.

All that said, Jaime's actual skill level was most likely overblown.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

ct1 said:


> (And yes, Oberyn beat the Mountain. If his goal had been only to kill him, he would have been dead.)


That ending just killed me.


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## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

gossamer88 said:


> That ending just killed me.


and Oberyn and nearly Tyrion.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Welcome to the Jaime Lannister excuse making society!


Wait....Does Jaime play for the Washington Capitals????


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Anubys said:


> well, I don't know about the books...but for show-watchers only, it sure seems that Ned's opinion of Jaime was right on the money. Jaime was famous for his skills in the "entertainment" fights. That's is very different fighting than in real life/death fight or in war.
> 
> Ned was at least as good. Brienne beat him handily, excuses or not. The Hound fought Brienne almost to a draw; which means he, too, was better than Jaime. I doubt Jaime would've beaten Bronn, and he was just another hired gun in the right place at the right time. We know the Mountain is better than them all. Surely, the guy that almost killed the Mountain in that duel (I forget his name) was better than Jaime if he could beat the Mountain.
> 
> No doubt that Jaime could fight, but all indications on the show is that he was not half as good as his reputation made him out to be.


Was Jamie's reputation overblown?
Most likely.
He was the golden boy of one of the most prominent families in Westeros and there's that whole "Kingslayer" business.

But he also probably had the finest swordmanship instructors that Tywin could buy and I think he had a lot of raw talent too.
(Didn't Dayne recruit him into the King's Guard because he saw Jaime's talent?)

Jaime probably was one of the best swordsmans in Westeros before he lost his hand.
Don't forget that his hands were shackled when he fought Brienne and the Hound was already rather ill he and Brienne fought (and Brienne had to do the Tyson to beat the Hound).

But Ned may have been better Jaime in Season 1 due to the fact that Jaime fought mostly in tournaments and had never really fought in battle while Ned fought in numerous battles.

Certainly Ned was more battle cunning as I believe that one reason he didn't fight until he had to was to keep his opponents guessing as to what his skill level really was and how he actually fought.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Certainly Ned was more battle cunning as I believe that one reason he didn't fight until he had to was to keep his opponents guessing as to what his skill level really was and how he actually fought.


I think Ned said as much to Jaime!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

ct1 said:


> Oberyn Martell.


Why couldn't he be the one that got reincarnated. Instead they revive Jon Snow. 

I loved the Red Viper.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

The Hound vs The Mountain is what the entire GOT world is hoping for as the outcome of Cersei's inevitable Trial by Combat. Cleganebowl! If the fans get this right I really can't wait. We already know the Mountain is in one corner, so who will fight for the High Sparrow?


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

nickels said:


> The Hound vs The Mountain is what the entire GOT world is hoping for as the outcome of Cersei's inevitable Trial by Combat. Cleganebowl! If the fans get this right I really can't wait. We already know the Mountain is in one corner, so who will fight for the High Sparrow?


Brienne? That would be fun...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

nickels said:


> The Hound vs The Mountain is what the entire GOT world is hoping for as the outcome of Cersei's inevitable Trial by Combat. Cleganebowl! If the fans get this right I really can't wait. We already know the Mountain is in one corner, so who will fight for the High Sparrow?


Last we saw the Hound he'd been gravely injured and was begging Arya to just kill him rather than leave him there to suffer. If he's still alive (or was resurrected), they're going to have some major backstory to fill in to explain what happened to him.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Last we saw the Hound he'd been gravely injured and was begging Arya to just kill him rather than leave him there to suffer. If he's still alive (or was resurrected), they're going to have some major backstory to fill in to explain what happened to him.


The theory floating around is...



Spoiler



...that the sparrows found him and nursed him back to health and have been hiding him somewhere.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

nickels said:


> The Hound vs The Mountain is what the entire GOT world is hoping for as the outcome of Cersei's inevitable Trial by Combat. Cleganebowl! If the fans get this right I really can't wait. We already know the Mountain is in one corner, so who will fight for the High Sparrow?


1. Isn't The Hound dead?
2. Aren't they brothers? Or buddies?
3. Does uncdrew pay attention?


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> 1. Isn't The Hound dead?
> 2. Aren't they brothers? Or buddies?
> 3. Does uncdrew pay attention?


Brothers, but not buddies. The hound played with one of the mountain's toys when they were children, so the mountain held his face over the fire until he was disfigured.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

ct1 said:


> Brothers, but not buddies. The hound played with one of the mountain's toys when they were children, so the mountain held his face over the fire until he was disfigured.


Yeah. Also, they had a fight before in the series, during the Tournament of the Hand where the Mountain (played by a different actor) lost a joust with Loras Tyrell and beheaded his own horse, then went berserk. The Hound then defended Loras Tyrell from the Mountain going crazy and a small sword fight ensued that was only stopped by King Robert ordering them to stop. The hound immediately obeyed and bent the knee, while the Mountain sort of calmed down and just walked away.


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

nickels said:


> The Hound vs The Mountain is what the entire GOT world is hoping for as the outcome of Cersei's inevitable Trial by Combat. Cleganebowl! If the fans get this right I really can't wait. We already know the Mountain is in one corner, so who will fight for the High Sparrow?


The Warrior of course.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

The Mountain is still on Arya's list, right?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

ct1 said:


> The Mountain is still on Arya's list, right?


What list?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> What list?


A girl doesn't have a list.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

A girl hath no lithp.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> A girl doesn't have a list.


Right, and a girl doesn't still have a sword, either.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

ct1 said:


> Right, and a girl doesn't still have a sword, either.


A girl may learn that she doesn't need a sword.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

She buried the sword, didn't she? It's not necessarily out of play.

Isn't it dragon glass?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Robin said:


> Isn't it dragon glass?


No, ordinary steel.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> She buried the sword, didn't she? It's not necessarily out of play.
> 
> Isn't it dragon glass?


Just to expand on this with a statement looking for confirmation:

Two things that we know of that can kill those things (I forget what they are called, the masters, not the regular zombies): dragon glass and Valeryan Steel.

As far I know, you can't make a sword out of dragon glass but you can make those makeshift daggers out of them. Also, dragon glass is found in abundance on Dragon Stone; probably made from dragon fire when they destroyed the castle.

Anything wrong with the above statements?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Just to expand on this with a statement looking for confirmation:
> 
> Two things that we know of that can kill those things (I forget what they are called, the masters, not the regular zombies): dragon glass and Valeryan Steel.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong other than Dragonstone was not destroyed. It's where the Targaryens lived, with dragons, when they first came to Westeros. More recently it's where Stannis was based before he went to The Wall.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Two things that we know of that can kill those things (I forget what they are called, the masters, not the regular zombies): dragon glass and Valeryan Steel.


White Walkers


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Ah, right. I was thinking it was something that could off white walkers and got confused.

So needle was just ordinary steel?

I wish I had time to rewatch from the beginning.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> Ah, right. I was thinking it was something that could off white walkers and got confused.
> 
> So needle was just ordinary steel?
> 
> I wish I had time to rewatch from the beginning.


No doubt about that. Ned had a sword maker at Winterfell make it for her. There is no valeryan steel anywhere and Ned would not have wasted it on a gift to a girl if he had it. He also would have mentioned it when he made the gift.

The only way to get valeryan steel is to kill someone who has a sword already or to melt one as Tywin did and make new sword(s) out of them.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> to melt one as Tywin did and make new sword(s) out of them.


I think that's what led me astray. I remembered someone melting one down and making two out if it, I thought needle was part of that.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Robin said:


> Ah, right. I was thinking it was something that could off white walkers and got confused.
> 
> So needle was just ordinary steel?


Yeah, it's not Valyrian steel, but it is castle-forged steel. It's pretty high quality at even a brief glance and I think that's been pointed out a couple of times so far in the series when they discuss Needle. So it's not the kind that can kill white walkers, but it's really good compared to normal swords.

There's only a few Valyrian steel swords shown or mentioned in the series. Ice (Ned Stark's sword) was broken down into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail; the former went to Brianne of Tarth and the latter is now with Tommen after Joffrey choked. There's also Longclaw, from House Mormont (think former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and father of Ser Jorah Mormont) but now owned by Jon Snow. There's the dagger that was used in the second episode to (try to) kill Brandon Stark when he was in a coma.

There's also one more, mentioned in the first book:



Spoiler



Heartsbane, owned by Randyll Tarley, Samwell's father. No one knows if this will be brought up in future episodes, but he has one.



As for other Valerian steel swords, mentioned in the books:



Spoiler



There's also a bunch of Valyrian steel swords that were lost over the years and no one knows what happened to them.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Ned had a sword maker at Winterfell make it for her.


Just a minor quibble - Jon Snow had Needle made for Arya.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> I think that's what led me astray. I remembered someone melting one down and making two out if it, I thought needle was part of that.


I see now what you meant...Ice (Ned's sword) was so big that they were able to make 2 swords out of it (Tywin even said something about how big the sword was).

Needle is resting quietly where Arya hid it close to where she is doing her assassin internship.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Why was this episode title "Oathbreaker"? It's clearly meant to refer to Jon leaving the Watch, but he very correctly states that *his* watch is over so he is not breaking his oath.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

wprager said:


> Why was this episode title "Oathbreaker"? It's clearly meant to refer to Jon leaving the Watch, but he very correctly states that *his* watch is over so he is not breaking his oath.


True. Not breaking his oath IMO. Although House Umber did break their oath to the Starks.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

wprager said:


> Why was this episode title "Oathbreaker"? It's clearly meant to refer to Jon leaving the Watch, but he very correctly states that *his* watch is over so he is not breaking his oath.


This video explains the theme. The first part is a review of the episode and the second part is analysis. Warning NSFW due to language.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Kablemodem said:


> This video explains the theme. The first part is a review of the episode and the second part is analysis. Warning NSFW due to language.


Any spoilers?


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Only if you haven't watched Game of Thrones.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I'm up to date, thanks!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> No doubt about that. Ned had a sword maker at Winterfell make it for her. There is no valeryan steel anywhere and Ned would not have wasted it on a gift to a girl if he had it. He also would have mentioned it when he made the gift.
> 
> The only way to get valeryan steel is to kill someone who has a sword already or to melt one as Tywin did and make new sword(s) out of them.


Not Ned, Jon had it made for Arya by the Winterfell blacksmith.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Tommen is so weak, just letting himself be manipulated by the High Sparrow. If Tommen doesn't get free from that guy's grasp, pretty soon he'll have Tommen voluntarily testifying against Cercei.


I don't think the High Sparrow is manipulating Tommen, at least not in the way Cersei manipulated him by convincing him to arm the Sparrows in the first place, which was in response to Margaery manipulating him to push Cersei out of King's Landing.

It could be that the High Sparrow doesn't really believe that the crown and the faith are the twin pillars of the world, and is ultimately planning on trying to overthrow the crown. But so far we have seen no evidence of that yet.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

A quick question (prompted by something that was said in the youtube video): what is the purpose of the wall? I thought it was there to keep out the white walkers, not the wildlings. The wildlings just choose -- for whatever reason -- to live in the far north on the other side of the wall. But the purpose of the wall is not to keep them out.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> A quick question (prompted by something that was said in the youtube video): what is the purpose of the wall? I thought it was there to keep out the white walkers, not the wildlings. The wildlings just choose -- for whatever reason -- to live in the far north on the other side of the wall. But the purpose of the wall is not to keep them out.


That's its original purpose. But it's been so long since anybody has seen the White Walkers (when the series begins) that most people don't even believe in them any more. They think the Wall is there to keep the Wildlings out.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's its original purpose. But it's been so long since anybody has seen the White Walkers (when the series begins) that most people don't even believe in them any more. They think the Wall is there to keep the Wildlings out.


Rapists, murderers and thieves. Isn't that what every wall is about?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Rapists, murderers and thieves. Isn't that what every wall is about?


Except our walls are to keep them out. Their Wall is to keep them employed.

Kind of like a welfare program for the scum of the Earth Westeros.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Has anyone ever thought of using a giant in a Trial by Combat? As big as The Mountain is, he's just a molehill, really.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

wprager said:


> Has anyone ever thought of using a giant in a Trial by Combat? As big as The Mountain is, he's just a molehill, really.


You'd first have to get a giant, and they live north of the Wall and are unlikely to cooperate. Plus if attacking from the rear isn't an honorable tactic in open combat, neither would calling on a giant for a duel. At least on Earth, the _Code Duello_ prohibits choosing weapons that give one an unfair advantage.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> You'd first have to get a giant, and they live north of the Wall and are unlikely to cooperate. Plus if attacking from the rear isn't an honorable tactic in open combat, neither would calling on a giant for a duel. At least on Earth, the _Code Duello_ prohibits choosing weapons that give one an unfair advantage.


That doesn't seem to be an issue in Westeros. The Mad King chose fire as his champion in the trial of Ned's father.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

getbak said:


> That doesn't seem to be an issue in Westeros. The Mad King chose fire as his champion in the trial of Ned's father.


Of course he was mad. And king. So he got to do whatever he wanted, no matter how crazy.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Rapists, murderers and thieves. Isn't that what every wall is about?


And some, I assume, are good people.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ct1 said:


> And some, I assume, are good people.


:up:


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

getbak said:


> That doesn't seem to be an issue in Westeros. The Mad King chose fire as his champion in the trial of Ned's father.


Yes, but he was, after all, _mad_.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course he was mad. And king. So he got to do whatever he wanted, no matter how crazy.


It's good to be the king.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> It's good to be the king.


Until somebody stabs you in the back.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Anubys said:


> It's good to be the king.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Until somebody stabs you in the back.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Until somebody stabs you in the back.


Given that the reference was Mel Brooks' A History of the World (Part 1) that should have been "Until they chop off your head."

EDIT: Is it Brooks' or Brooks's?


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

wprager said:


> EDIT: Is it Brooks' or Brooks's?


The former.

--Carlos V.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Unbeliever said:


> The former.


It can be either. It's a matter of preference.


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