# Epic Fail!



## Marconi (Sep 8, 2001)

My Roamio came with a document "Installing a CableCARD". I've installed many, had a card ready to go and was going to install it before first powering up the new Roamio. BUT the Instructions say: "Before installing the CableCARD decoder...


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Installing the cablecard first wouldn't give you guide data for missing channels. It sounds like you selected the wrong lineup during setup.

I believe the reason they tell you to setup the box first is because initial setup usually downloads a software update and having a cablecard installed could cause issues. Personally, I don't think it really matters but I think they are trying to just be on the safe side. Also, they may be encouraging you to do it so you will set it up before an installer comes. Because if you don't, most will just leave before it is working if they have to wait and hour or two.


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## Marconi (Sep 8, 2001)

rainwater said:


> Installing the cablecard first wouldn't give you guide data for missing channels.


You can't get a channel list until the card IS installed. Install, pair, activate, get channel list. Then do Guided Setup. The first guide data connection will then load data for all channels. And you only need run Guided Setup once. The instructions are flawed.



rainwater said:


> It sounds like you selected the wrong lineup during setup.


It sounds like you think I've never run guided setup before. Besides, there is just one lineup with the option for premium channels. There is no wrong lineup to select. 


rainwater said:


> I believe the reason they tell you to setup...


set up http://www.otfb.com/blog/?p=907


rainwater said:


> ...the box first is because initial setup usually downloads a software update and having a cablecard installed could cause issues. Personally, I don't think it really matters but I think they are trying to just be on the safe side. Also, they may be encouraging you to do it so you will set it up before an installer comes. Because if you don't, most will just leave before it is working if they have to wait and hour or two.


I really don't think the manual writers at TiVo are worrying over some cable guy's time (at my expense). Besides, I'm the installer. I just put it in, emailed the pairing data to the office and they activated it.

Once activated, however, it only "knew" about the channels active before the pairing when Guided Setup was run. It REQUIRED running Guided Setup again. That seems stupid when I could have run it just once and had it work right off. At the very least, the instructions should note that if you run Guided Setup before installing/pairing the card, you'll need to run it again afterward.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

You should select the option that you'll install the CableCARD later. It will download the proper guide data, and you do *NOT* need to re-run the setup after the CableCARD is installed. That's how I set up my Roamio, and that's how I set up a TiVo HD for my relative a week ago.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

c3 said:


> You should select the option that you'll install the CableCARD later. It will download the proper guide data, and you do *NOT* need to re-run the setup after the CableCARD is installed. That's how I set up my Roamio, and that's how I set up a TiVo HD for my relative a week ago.


That's how I've setup every single CableCARD TiVo since my first S3. (10 in total) Back in the old days it could take days to get an appointment scheduled to have a tech come install the card. These days I always do it that way because it's easier to verify the card is working when you have full access to the TiVo.


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## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

I followed the TiVo instructions for both my Premiere and Roamio and did the setup first and then installed the cable card. I didn't have to rerun guided setup or anything. As soon as I installed the cable card both times it had all my channels and worked fine.


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## Marconi (Sep 8, 2001)

jrock said:


> I followed the TiVo instructions for both my Premiere and Roamio and did the setup first and then installed the cable card. I didn't have to rerun guided setup or anything. As soon as I installed the cable card both times it had all my channels and worked fine.


And you're not alone. It sounds to me like rainwater may have nailed it with the "wrong lineup" diagnosis. My apology to rainwater.

I'm going to remove the paired card and repeat Guided Setup just to see if more than one lineup is available. (There has only been one in the past.)

When my 3TB drive gets here I'll be repeating the whole process anyway.

One thing that remains is this: When all those channels didn't show up, I went into the Channel List and checked/updated the "Channels I receive" but it made no difference. Further evidence, I suppose, that I had some minimalist lineup selected. This is so embarrassing...


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## ScaryMike (Aug 23, 2002)

Marconi said:


> And you're not alone. It sounds to me like rainwater may have nailed it with the "wrong lineup" diagnosis. My apology to rainwater.
> 
> I'm going to remove the paired card and repeat Guided Setup just to see if more than one lineup is available. (There has only been one in the past.)
> 
> ...


Don't be embarrassed. I'm impressed anytime someone has the guts to admit a mistake. Seems so rare these days.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Thanks for all the comments on this thread. I was an early adopter with the Premiere. Learned my lesson; will be a late adopter of the Roamio. The above helps a lot.


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## Marconi (Sep 8, 2001)

ScaryMike said:


> Don't be embarrassed. I'm impressed anytime someone has the guts to admit a mistake. Seems so rare these days.


I so seldom make mistakes, when someone catches me in one, I consider it a good day, as I've learned something, improved myself (he says, humbly).


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

Marconi said:


> You can't get a channel list until the card IS installed. Install, pair, activate, get channel list. Then do Guided Setup. The first guide data connection will then load data for all channels. And you only need run Guided Setup once.


I'm not sure that's possible. In order to pair the cable card, you typically need the Host ID. Is there a way to get the Host ID before starting the first Guided Setup?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Marconi said:


> You can't get a channel list until the card IS installed. Install, pair, activate, get channel list.


Not true. You don't need the channel list from the cablecard to get the correct channel lineup and guide data. The channel list provided from the cablecard does not affect which guide data is loaded. When you run guided setup it should ask you if you are going to install a cablecard later and you say yes. Then it will give you the digital lineup by default.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

There was definitely and EPIC FAIL here, but it wasn't by Tivo.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Marconi said:


> One thing that remains is this: When all those channels didn't show up, I went into the Channel List and checked/updated the "Channels I receive" but it made no difference. Further evidence, I suppose, that I had some minimalist lineup selected.


I consider that behavior to be a bug. If TiVo allows a user to select a channel, then it should be able to download the guide data for that channel. I have Limited Basic with Comcast, and Discovery HD is included. If I choose the Limited Basic lineup, then I don't get the guide data for Discovery HD. I have to choose the full lineup instead.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

c3 said:


> I consider that behavior to be a bug. If TiVo allows a user to select a channel, then it should be able to download the guide data for that channel. I have Limited Basic with Comcast, and Discovery HD is included. If I choose the Limited Basic lineup, then I don't get the guide data for Discovery HD. I have to choose the full lineup instead.


That's a Comcast bug, not a TiVo bug. The easiest way to fix it, though, is to report it to TiVo (who will report it to Tribune who will verify with Comcast.): http://www.tivo.com/lineup


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## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

WhiskeyTango said:


> There was definitely and EPIC FAIL here, but it wasn't by Tivo.


Hey, he manned up. Let him off the hook.


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## Marconi (Sep 8, 2001)

My original premise when starting this thread was that TiVo's instructions to do Guided Setup (GS) before installing my CableCARD are flawed, that it resulted in missing channels, lack of program guide info for those channels and so on. The only way to get the missing channels was to run GS again once the card was installed. It would therefore have been better, I opined, to simply install the card, then run GS. 

Several people disagreed with this premise, each saying the card is not necessary to get all channel data. One suggested a plausible explanation for my problem: that I had chosen the wrong lineup. With everyone in agreement against my premise and an alternate, plausible explanation proffered, I'd have to be an idiot not to re-examine my original premise. I became convinced I had screwed up. I no longer believe this.

As it happens, I'd intended from the start to put a larger drive into my Roamio and did so this morning. In so doing, all settings were, of course, lost, including the CableCARD pairing data. This time, however, I left the CableCARD in the Roamio while doing GS.

At the point in GS where previously it asked me if I had a card and I selected NO, choosing to follow the instructions, this time it recognized that a card was present and displayed pairing data, which I dutifully noted and emailed to my cable provider. (On Monday morning, they will doubtless activate the card.) The screen also noted: "Getting channel list". 

At the point in GS where the lineup is chosen, I was asked two questions: 1) What programming do I received on channel 7; 2) Do I receive any premium channels? As before I answered: TVGN and, no, I do not receive any premium channels. Based on my answers, a lineup was chosen for me. I never had a chance to select a lineup. This is as it was the first time I ran GS on the Roamio. I could not have selected the wrong lineup because I made no such selection. As I contended earlier, there is just the one lineup. 

This time through GS, all channels showed up in the list of Channels I Receive. In fact, owing to the presence of the card, even though it is yet unpaired, all the channels I should receive are being received. None are copy protected. The mere presence of the unpaired card is sufficient to deliver all channels I will get. Pairing of the card will add nothing, or so it appears.

So, I am back where I began. GS without a card installed resulted in missing channels and the need to run GS again. GS with a card made all channels available straight-away with no second GS required. I suspect that, without the card's channel list, the list is limited to those channels that do not require authorization -- a subset of the complete lineup. 

For the fact that others' experiences may be different, I have no explanation. 

But following TiVo's instruction to complete GS before installing the card resulted in missing channels. Ignoring TiVo's instructions and running GS with the CableCARD present made everything work fine first time.

I have confirmed my original premise.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Marconi said:


> At the point in GS where the lineup is chosen, I was asked two questions: 1) What programming do I received on channel 7; 2) Do I receive any premium channels? As before I answered: TVGN and, no, I do not receive any premium channels. Based on my answers, a lineup was chosen for me. I never had a chance to select a lineup. This is as it was the first time I ran GS on the Roamio. I could not have selected the wrong lineup because I made no such selection. As I contended earlier, there is just the one lineup.


If you tell TiVo that you do NOT receive TVGN, then you will get only a subset of the guide data.


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## Marconi (Sep 8, 2001)

c3 said:


> If you tell TiVo that you do NOT receive TVGN, then you will get only a subset of the guide data.


The question asked is do I get TVGN on channel 7? If I say I do not get TVGN on 7, the next question will likely be: What DO you get on channel 7?

Thing is, there's only one lineup here locally and it gets TVGN on 7.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Marconi said:


> The question asked is do I get TVGN on channel 7? If I say I do not get TVGN on 7, the next question will likely be: What DO you get on channel 7?


Most likely it will let you select which lineup you want if you say no. In most areas there is a digital basic and digital extended lineup.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

Marconi said:


> I have confirmed my original premise.


Not really..

It still sounds like you selected the wrong lineup when you ran through Guided Setup without the CableCard installed.

The process of GS, without a cablecard, is that it first asks if you have a cablecard. You say no, then it asks for a zip code and then you select your lineup. Once you select your lineup, it asks you what channel you get on channel number X. I know this because I have three CableCard capable TiVos, have used them in two different cable systems, and have run Guided Setup on them every time without a CableCard at the outset.

The channel list from the CableCard doesn't actually affect the contents of the lineup or channels you receive. Quite the contrary, many people still bemoan the fact that TiVo requires you to manually check or uncheck channels that you do or do not subscribe to.

What it sounds like happened, and I would be willing to bet a month's salary on this, is that IF you have a CableCard installed when you start Guided Setup, it uses the channel map from the CableCard to figure out the lineup automatically. Then, it dumps you back into the standard Guided Setup, including asking you to verify a channel. All a CableCard in the box prior to GS does is skip the zip code + pick a lineup process. It still picks a lineup provided by Tribune, there is no way that it picked a lineup that isn't visible when you run GS w/o a card.

The reason TiVo suggests running GS first, before putting in the card, is that it is infinitely easier to troubleshoot the cablecards AFTER you have unfettered access to the menus, the ability to change channels, etc.


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## Marconi (Sep 8, 2001)

JosephB said:


> Not really..
> 
> It still sounds like you selected the wrong lineup when you ran through Guided Setup without the CableCard installed.


Except that the lineup selection process was the same both times. It asked me what I received on channel 7 and offered the suggestion of TVGN, which is correct, so I selected that. Both times.



JosephB said:


> The process of GS, without a cablecard, is that it first asks if you have a cablecard. You say no, then it asks for a zip code and then you select your lineup.


I recall being asked for my zip code both with and without the card installed. (How would the presence of a card let it know my zip code?) In fact, it asked for my zip code at the outset, before asking about a CableCARD.



JosephB said:


> Once you select your lineup, it asks you what channel you get on channel number X.


You've got it backwards. It uses your answer to the question to determin which lineup to use. There's no point in asking what programming is on channel x if it already knows your lineup! 


JosephB said:


> I know this because I have three CableCard capable TiVos, have used them in two different cable systems, and have run Guided Setup on them every time without a CableCard at the outset.


And I currently have five TiVo DVRs with CableCARDS, and there have been others that also had cards and were replaced. I've run GS a lot too. And I've always done it with the card installed.



JosephB said:


> The channel list from the CableCard doesn't actually affect the contents of the lineup or channels you receive.


Ack! The channel list from the CableCard most certainly _does_ affect which channels you receive. The channel list contains info on whether your account is authorized to receive each of the channels!


JosephB said:


> ...
> 
> What it sounds like happened, and I would be willing to bet a month's salary on this, ...


How much is a month's pay? I'm trying to decide if it's worth running GS yet again, without the card.



JosephB said:


> ...is that IF you have a CableCard installed when you start Guided Setup, it uses the channel map from the CableCard to figure out the lineup automatically.


Nope.


JosephB said:


> Then, it dumps you back into the standard Guided Setup, including asking you to verify a channel. All a CableCard in the box prior to GS does is skip the zip code + pick a lineup process.


Nope. Doesn't do that either. The process always starts with a zip code to determine which cable providers are in the area. Then you select your provider, then you select your lineup.


JosephB said:


> It still picks a lineup provided by Tribune, there is no way that it picked a lineup that isn't visible when you run GS w/o a card.


I think you're confusing the channel list used by the card (which it gets from the headend, over the cable) with the lineup info downloaded from TiVo.com. 


JosephB said:


> The reason TiVo suggests running GS first, before putting in the card, is that it is infinitely easier to troubleshoot the cablecards AFTER you have unfettered access to the menus, the ability to change channels, etc.


That may well be.

Just for fun, I decided to run GS three more times. Well, not _just_ for fun. There's that month's salary too.

Here are the steps for the three scenarios.

[Scenario one, Saying No to "Do you have a card?"]
Asks for Zip Code
Do you have a CableCARD (no)
Network setup...
Using you new network settings
The DVR will now connect to TiVo...
Select your cable provider from the list...
Set up cable channels - you'll be asked one or more questions...
Yes, I get TVGN on channel 7
"Your cable channels are now set up"
TiVo DVR will now connect to the service...
This resulted in knowing about channels 2-56. NO digital channels were in my channel list.

[Saying Yes to "Do you have a card?"]
Asks for Zip Code
Do you have a CableCARD (yes, inserted it)
Network setup
Using you new network settings
The DVR will now connect to TiVo...
Select your cable provider from the list...
Set up cable channels - you'll be asked one or more questions...
Yes, I get TVGN on channel 7
Do you receive any premium channels (no)
"Your cable channels are now set up"
TiVo DVR will now connect to the service...
This resulted in having every channel I receive listed in the channel list.

[Card inserted before beginning GS]
Asks for Zip Code
Automatically goes to CableCARD screen, showing M-Card inserted, I continue.
Network setup
Using you new network settings
The DVR will now connect to TiVo...
Select your cable provider from the list...
Set up cable channels - you'll be asked one or more questions...
Yes, I get TVGN on channel 7
Do you receive any premium channels (no)
"Your cable channels are now set up"
TiVo DVR will now connect to the service...
This too, of course, resulted in having every channel I receive listed in the channel list.

Without the card during GS, missing channels. With the card, all channels.

PM me for the address to which you can mail that month's salary. I prefer a cashier's check.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Your tests are flawed because you answered "Yes, I get TVGN on channel 7" in all cases.

In my area, TiVo asks if I receive Food Network on channel 34. If I select no, then my guide data contains only the Limited Basic channels. I had to re-run the guided setup and select yes to that question even though I don't receive channel 34, in order to get guide data for channel 750 Discovery HD which is actually part of Limited Basic (but TiVo does not know).

Your original problem was still caused by the incorrect lineup selection, not the absence of CableCARD.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

Wait, when you did GS without the cablecard, what answer did you give. Did you say "no, I don't have a CableCard" or did you say "I'll get one later"?


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## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

Good catch


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