# Vudu & Amazon Prime for Premiere in 2015



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TiVo has posted a new Vudu support note and updated their Amazon Instant note, indicating no Premiere support at this time:

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/259/
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2951

However, TiVo's Twitter support account indicates Premiere will be serviced in 2015:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/527575124904796161


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

> What is the difference between Amazon Instant Video on Roamio and other TiVo devices?
> 
> Depending on the TiVo platform you are using, your Amazon Instant Video application has different capabilities and features. With software version 20.4.5, *Roamio Series DVRs and TiVo Mini feature an improved Amazon Instant Video experience that not only lets you stream content to your device with up to 1080p video quality, but also offers access to your Amazon Prime videos!*
> 
> Legacy (previous) versions of Amazon Instant Video are not compatible with streaming or Amazon Prime. If you have a Premiere Series or earlier DVR, the TiVo Amazon Instant Video experience gives you access to the complete Amazon Instant Video library. Your selections will be downloaded to My Shows for viewing.


Yep, Premiere excluded


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## spaldingclan (Aug 22, 2012)

kind of expected this...too bad too. I guess I'll be selling my lifetimed premiere on ebay


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I don't know if the Premiere would be capable or not but from a business standpoint, it probably wouldn't make any sense to add these services.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

spaldingclan said:


> kind of expected this...too bad too. I guess I'll be selling my lifetimed premiere on ebay


Yep, I think I will sell my Premiere and get a second Mini. It makes sense, I can save the $5 a month cable card fee...


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

There had to be a cut-off at some point, I was just hoping Amazon would be on the other side of that cut-off.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

jrtroo said:


> There had to be a cut-off at some point, I was just hoping Amazon would be on the other side of that cut-off.


Guess they drew the line since RCN, with a whole lotta Premieres, probably wouldn't deploy these apps anyway.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Still not very clear to me, on my Roamio:


Will I be able to download my UV movies from Vudu?
Will I be able to download rented movies from Vudu? 
Will I still be able to download rented or owned movies from Amazon?
Will I be able to download Prime movies?

I know most people can stream but with my Frontier DSL it is impossible to stream in the afternoon/evening (drops to below 1Mbps every night) so if I can not download stuff, it is worthless to me.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> Still not very clear to me, on my Roamio:
> 
> 
> Will I be able to download my UV movies from Vudu?
> ...


You cannot download from Netflix and as far as I know you cannot download using any of these apps on Roku or the Amazon Fire boxes. Since this is the same application deployed in those environments - I suspect the answer is no.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Prime is stream only (there is no download option for Prime on any device). Regular Amazon Instant Video *MAY* still support download, but until they activate the new app we won't know for sure (I'll bet that you will still be able to initiate a download from Your Video Library on Amazon).

Does Vudu support download on any platform? I've only used it on Roku, which obviously wouldn't support downloads.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> Still not very clear to me, on my Roamio:
> 
> 
> Will I be able to download my UV movies from Vudu?
> ...


The amazon part is very clear, clearly stated in the table they put up. For the Roamio, prime stuff, rented or purchased videos will be stream only.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

bradleys said:


> You cannot download from Netflix and as far as I know you cannot download using any of these apps on Roku or the Amazon Fire boxes. Since this is the same application deployed in those environments - I suspect the answer is no.


I kind of assumed that for Prime Videos but hoped I could still download instant videos.



Diana Collins said:


> Prime is stream only (there is no download option for Prime on any device). Regular Amazon Instant Video *MAY* still support download, but until they activate the new app we won't know for sure (I'll bet that you will still be able to initiate a download from Your Video Library on Amazon).
> 
> Does Vudu support download on any platform? I've only used it on Roku, which obviously wouldn't support downloads.


You can download owned Vudu/UV video on a computer and some other devices with hard drives. I have also been told you can download Vudu rented videos on a PS3.



Aero 1 said:


> The amazon part is very clear, clearly stated in the table they put up. For the Roamio, prime stuff, rented or purchased videos will be stream only.


Ya I see that now sucks for me - guess I need to keep one of my other TiVos around for awhile.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Have they said the instant video app is going away? I would makes sense to replace one with the other, but I am not sure we have conformation on that.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Diana Collins said:


> Does Vudu support download on any platform? I've only used it on Roku, which obviously wouldn't support downloads.


Vudu on iOS allows downloads of purchased content (not sure about rentals, but I'd assume so). They even give you a choice of three settings for downloads (Best quality, Best download speed, and Good quality and speed).


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

gonzotek said:


> Vudu on iOS allows downloads of purchased content (not sure about rentals, but I'd assume so). They even give you a choice of three settings for downloads (Best quality, Best download speed, and Good quality and speed).


The point of the TiVo app architecture was to allow app providers to integrate existing applications with little modifications. Under the old architecture a dedicated TiVo app had to be written and we see what that got us!

As far as I know, none of the apps built for streaming boxes includes download as an option - for obvious reasons. Since we are getting apps designed around that model, it also makes sense that all these new apps would also exclude downloading. A more apples to apples comparison would be for you to say the Vudu app on the XBox allows for downloads - but it doesn't.

Mobile apps, by design need download as connectivity may be unavailable or expensive.

Home based apps do not need downloading as they are driven by a broadband connection by design.


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## AdamNJ (Aug 22, 2013)

Amazon Instant Video
(*Premiere* Series and earlier DVRs)
Account Registration: Register at http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv/tivo
Device Registration: No device registration
Purchase Type: Own and/or rent
How content is delivered: Download only

Amazon Instant Video with Prime
*Roamio* Series DVRs/TiVo *Mini* with software version 20.4.5 or higher
Account Registration: No account-level registration
Device Registration: Register at*ttp://www.amazon.com/mytv
Purchase Type: Subscription through Amazon Prime, own and/or rent
How content is delivered: Stream only


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Well, this should juice Roamio and Mini sales a little, as Premiere owners have another good excuse to upgrade.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

I was responding to Diana's post asking if Vudu allowed downloads on any other platform. But anyway...


bradleys said:


> Home based apps do not as they are driven by a broadband connection by design.


Except that falls down for folks like atmuscarella, where 'broadband' still isn't good enough to do the job. And there are still a LOT of areas of the country where folk are stuck with DSL, satellite, or cell.

Plus..it's a TiVo..not a little streamer with little-to-no memory. Roamios all have anywhere from 1/2 TB to 3 TB standard...why not allow the flexibility the platform inherently allows, so streams and downloads would both be possible.


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## AdamNJ (Aug 22, 2013)

jrtroo said:


> There had to be a cut-off at some point, I was just hoping Amazon would be on the other side of that cut-off.





davezatz said:


> Guess they drew the line since RCN, with a whole lotta Premieres, probably wouldn't deploy these apps anyway.


It's also a year since the Roamio was released and after the haxe UI supposedly speeding up the Premier interface, I guess they want to force a reason to upgrade. But Amazon Prime in itself likely won't force peopel to upgrade considering there are many streaming options, like the new FireTV Stick.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

gonzotek said:


> I was responding to Diana's post asking if Vudu allowed downloads on any other platform. But anyway...
> Except that falls down for folks like atmuscarella, where 'broadband' still isn't good enough to do the job. And there are still a LOT of areas of the country where folk are stuck with DSL, satellite, or cell.
> 
> Plus..it's a TiVo..not a little streamer with little-to-no memory. Roamios all have anywhere from 1/2 TB to 3 TB standard...why not allow the flexibility the platform inherently allows, so streams and downloads would both be possible.


I understand...

Like I mentioned, I compare the TiVo to the XBox more than a Roku streaming box. And even with those subscription numbers, downloading isn't included for these new apps.

The app providers are definitely looking at the 95 / 5 percent rule on this one.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

gonzotek said:


> Plus..it's a TiVo..not a little streamer with little-to-no memory. Roamios all have anywhere from 1/2 TB to 3 TB standard...why not allow the flexibility the platform inherently allows, so streams and downloads would both be possible.


This really comes down to how much extra programming Amazon and Vudu want to do for TiVo. TiVo is a relatively small player with under 1m subscribers so these services may not want to add a feature like this simply because it's not going to generate a ROI. They're more likely to just port an existing app from an existing streaming platform and call it good. I guess it's possible that they ported the PS3 app, which does support downloading. But more likely they ported a simpler one pulled from a device with simpler hardware that only supports streaming.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Grrrrr.


Yet again, TiVo excites me with a tease for months, and lets me down spectacularly with a last-minute surprising disappointment.

I'm not sure I can take it anymore. I constantly feel like I'm being punked.


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

My iOS TiVo app was just updated to include "watch now" content from third party providers...Amazon prime, xfinitiy and HBO go. 

HBO go will be an app now? Guessing not on premiere?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Fofer said:


> Grrrrr.
> 
> Yet again, TiVo excites me with a tease for months, and lets me down spectacularly with a last-minute surprising disappointment.
> 
> I'm not sure I can take it anymore. I constantly feel like I'm being punked.


You have a Premiere Fofer?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

bradleys said:


> You have a Premiere Fofer?


Yes, I do. And it's hooked up via HDMI to my living room TV, and Component to my bedroom. It's worked fine for years and I haven't felt the need to pay so much more to upgrade to a Roamio, especially when it can't even directly connect to two TV's in the same way. I'd need a TiVo Mini, too. I would have gotten a TiVo Mini earlier, but noooo, that only works on a 4-tuner Premiere, not the 2-Tuner one I have. All I ever do is watch from Now Playing, never live TV. I have meager needs. TiVo keeps outpacing me in frustrating ways. All this upgrading (for features I'd likely end up not even using) is just too pricey for me to fathom right now.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Test said:


> My iOS TiVo app was just updated to include "watch now" content from third party providers...Amazon prime, xfinitiy and HBO go.
> 
> HBO go will be an app now? Guessing not on premiere?


Xfinity? Maybe the HBO GO content is for Comcast customers?

If the Roamio now has direct access to Netflix, Amazon, VUDU, and also HBO GO (for Time Warner customers too) then maybe I'd upgrade after all.

Even still, the TiVo can't receive screencasted content like a cheap Chromecast or Roku can... and I use that feature all the time.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I don't know if the Premiere would be capable or not but from a business standpoint, it probably wouldn't make any sense to add these services.


for premiere it does if they didn't want to allow streaming of Prime on premiere why not take away netflix hulu and youtube since they are stearming some sort aren't they?


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Well, they haven't killed download from Amazon yet...we got 20.4.5 this morning and I just downloaded a TV episode from Amazon to our Roamio. I'll bet the code for download will stick around (if for no other reason than to avoid having Premiere and Roamio versions of each build).


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Tivo was one of the first set top boxes to stream netflix and they still lost millions of subscriptions. The streaming apps will generate revenue from existing customers, but they don't seem to generate new customers or even retain existing customers. I also think a certain percentage of tivo customers realize they can get by with streaming alone and cancel tivo in favor of a streaming only set top box.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> especially when it can't even directly connect to two TV's in the same way.


You could with a Roamio Plus/Pro. They both have HDMI and component just like the Premiere. The Basic is the only one that lacks component outputs. Although with the price changes on the Mini it might be cheaper to just get a Basic + Mini.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

shwru980r said:


> Tivo was one of the first set top boxes to stream netflix and they still lost millions of subscriptions. The streaming apps will generate revenue from existing customers, but they don't seem to generate new customers or even retain existing customers. I also think a certain percentage of tivo customers realize they can get by with streaming alone and cancel tivo in favor of a streaming only set top box.


The main reasons TiVo loses subscribers are...

1) They're expensive! Even the cheapest one costs is $200 + $15/mo. That kinda puts off those who don't really understand, or care about, the differences between TiVo and a cable DVR that's just tacked on to their bill for "free".

2) The hassle with CableCARD installs and tuning adapters. If your cable provided box doesn't work the cable company is all about helping you get it fixed or replaced. If your TiVo doesn't work they're quick to blame the TiVo and reluctant to help resolve the issue. Not to mention the techs rarely know what they're doing when they come out to install the card in the first place.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> Tivo was one of the first set top boxes to stream netflix and they still lost millions of subscriptions. The streaming apps will generate revenue from existing customers, but they don't seem to generate new customers or even retain existing customers. I also think a certain percentage of tivo customers realize they can get by with streaming alone and cancel tivo in favor of a streaming only set top box.


Tivo was never that huge in the first place. They had a high of 4.4 million subs in 2006 and half were DTV subscribers....until this year when they surpassed that.

This time more than half their subs come from Virgin Media in the UK.

http://zatznotfunny.com/2014-04/tivo-surpasses-2006-subscriber-count/

Really DTV was responsible for Tivo losing quite a few customers because they essentially dumped Tivo. And cable companies have always had the power to throw a monkey wrench into Tivo's plans.

Also Tivo has never led the way in services not directly related to recording cabletv. I always felt they left something to be desired.

The Netflix app on the Premiere was pretty bad. It crashed so much on me that is was unusable. They might have been the first cable set top box with Netflix, but not the first box. Consoles and BR players were the places to go for Netflix. And because most households had at least one of those, Netflix alone wasn't a selling pt.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> The Netflix app on the Premiere was pretty bad. It crashed so much on me that is was unusable. They might have been the first cable set top box with Netflix, but not the first box. Consoles and BR players were the places to go for Netflix. And because most households had at least one of those, Netflix alone wasn't a selling pt.


IIRC TiVo struck a deal to offer Netflix streaming on TiVo before any other standalone device on the market had it. (it was PC only at the time) This was back in like 2007 in the S3 days and TiVo's CEO at the time was also on the board for Netflix, so he had an inside track. The app was horrible. It was one of the old style HME apps with a TiVo (SD) like UI but in red/black instead of blue/yellow. It was even worse then the Premiere app you're referring to.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

...and it crashed like 3 times per movie. A big disastrous ball of suck. Another historical data point of TiVo promising magic... and failing in a spectacularly disappointing way.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Diana Collins said:


> Prime is stream only (there is no download option for Prime on any device). Regular Amazon Instant Video *MAY* still support download, but until they activate the new app we won't know for sure (I'll bet that you will still be able to initiate a download from Your Video Library on Amazon).
> 
> Does Vudu support download on any platform? I've only used it on Roku, which obviously wouldn't support downloads.


My WDTV Live Hubs with 1TB internal hard drives have always allowed downloads, where downloads were available.

There's nothing, that I'm aware of, that guarantees downloading will always be an option. That's kind of a scary thought. If I pay to "own" something, I expect to be able to hold a copy in my possession, which does not require internet access (or working internet, plus working OTT service servers, plus working real-time TiVo Service & servers) in order to simply view. Everybody seems to forget all the dependencies, so long as they are not denied access, due to any one of them.

The question of "Will downloads be turned off, as each OTT app begins providing streaming and/or cloud storage?", is one that I don't see a clear answer for. There will be a lot of opinions. But, I'm not aware of any contractual obligations that bind the OTT providers from changing, as long as you have "access" to the content you paid for. I imagine the term "access" will become subject to many court hearings, and legal battles, once complacent folk realize, through some form of denial of "access", to their content, just how much they lose, by not fighting for the ability to keep a local "copy".


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

gonzotek said:


> Plus..it's a TiVo..not a little streamer with little-to-no memory. Roamios all have anywhere from 1/2 TB to 3 TB standard...why not allow the flexibility the platform inherently allows, so streams and downloads would both be possible.


Where are the downloads you're hypothesizing going to come from? The various other ways of getting content are by definition streaming, not download.

Are you proposing adding a new special download process for tivos?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Both Amazon and VUDU offer video downloads on other platforms. I download VUDU to my Mac and tablet all the time.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Fofer said:


> Both Amazon and VUDU offer video downloads on other platforms. I download VUDU to my Mac and tablet all the time.


Both by definition mobile platforms.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> Tivo was one of the first set top boxes to stream netflix and they still lost millions of subscriptions.


Have you *seen *the original Netflix implementation for TiVo?



tarheelblue32 said:


> Well, this should juice Roamio and Mini sales a little, as Premiere owners have another good excuse to upgrade.


A Roku is a heck of a lot cheaper.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

bradleys said:


> Both by definition mobile platforms.


Huh? Amazon Instant and VUDU are channels on settop boxes attached to my TV. Nothing "mobile" about that.

"By definition?" I disagree. They can be accessed by mobile devices but they are *also* designed to work on desktop PCs and in the living room, too.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> The main reasons TiVo loses subscribers are...
> 
> 1) They're expensive! Even the cheapest one costs is $200 + $15/mo. That kinda puts off those who don't really understand, or care about, the differences between TiVo and a cable DVR that's just tacked on to their bill for "free".
> 
> 2) The hassle with CableCARD installs and tuning adapters. If your cable provided box doesn't work the cable company is all about helping you get it fixed or replaced. If your TiVo doesn't work they're quick to blame the TiVo and reluctant to help resolve the issue. Not to mention the techs rarely know what they're doing when they come out to install the card in the first place.


I agree with the reasons why Tivo lost customers, but my point is that being one of the first set top boxes with netflix didn't seem to help mitigate the staggering losses.

I also agree Tivo is expensive and their streaming apps are inferior to other set top boxes. This combination had to have cost Tivo significant goodwill with their customer base.

To me Tivo is somewhat analogous to the old fashioned ice box where you had to have a block of ice delivered for it to work, while streaming is analogous to the electric ice box. With streaming you just plug the box in and it works. With Tivo you have to go through the setup, cable card and schedule shows in advance.

I'm not sure it's a good idea for Tivo to let customers know how much more convenient it is to stream shows than it is to record them on a DVR, and add to this the fact that other set top boxes have better streaming apps and the set top box is much cheaper than Tivo.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

bradleys said:


> Yep, Premiere excluded


So what does the winter update get me on my Premiere?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

pfiagra said:


> So what does the winter update get me on my Premiere?


A lukewarm mug of cynicism and disappointment


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

pfiagra said:


> So what does the winter update get me on my Premiere?


We are still waiting on an update from Margret. We know that the tivo stream received an update and rumor that you can schedule for shows not currently in the guide.

We should know more in the next day or two.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

bradleys said:


> We are still waiting on an update from Margret. We know that the tivo stream received an update and rumor that you can schedule for shows not currently in the guide.
> 
> We should know more in the next day or two.


 the ability to schedule shows not in the guide was part of the fall not winter update.

Premieres most likely ended up with bug updates


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

ajwees41 said:


> the ability to schedule shows not in the guide was part of the fall not winter update.
> 
> Premieres most likely ended up with bug updates


Correct, on the first part.

Bug "updates" versus "fixes"... I always prefer my bugs be fully updated, in hopes of them becoming the best bugs they can be. It's not a bug, it's a feature! 

I tend to usually find that for each bug "fixed", at least one new one takes its place. So, if updating bugs works better, I'm down with that approach.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

pdhenry said:


> Have you *seen *the original Netflix implementation for TiVo?
> .


Hey some of us still use it on our S3's (4 times or so a week)! 

It's like the original menus on our S3's. It gets the job done without any problems so we haven't felt the need to move to a newer TiVo or another streaming device with a better client. We use the client for series and the integrated TiVo Search for movies etc.

Scott


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HerronScott said:


> Hey some of us still use it on our S3's (4 times or so a week)!
> 
> It's like the original menus on our S3's. It gets the job done without any problems so we haven't felt the need to move to a newer TiVo or another streaming device with a better client. We use the client for series and the integrated TiVo Search for movies etc.
> 
> Scott


Scott, don't you think it might be time to upgrade?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> IIRC TiVo struck a deal to offer Netflix streaming on TiVo before any other standalone device on the market had it. (it was PC only at the time) This was back in like 2007 in the S3 days and TiVo's CEO at the time was also on the board for Netflix, so he had an inside track. The app was horrible. It was one of the old style HME apps with a TiVo (SD) like UI but in red/black instead of blue/yellow. It was even worse then the Premiere app you're referring to.


The consoles got Netflix in 2008-2009. And by that time they already had install bases in the US of 10 million for the 360, more for the Wii and less for the PS3.

BR players had Netflix in 2008.

edit: actually Netflix didn't come to Tivo until later 2008 according to multiple google results on the internets. Around the same time as the 360 and BR players.

S3 was way too expensive to do much in the market or benefit from having netflix. $800 before lifetime or monthly fees. I knew there was a reason I stuck it out with my Series 2.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well, this should juice Roamio and Mini sales a little, as Premiere owners have another good excuse to upgrade.


I think it will go the other way. Sales will drop given the number of other streaming options available such as Roku. With its one-time cost, not only is Roku much cheaper than TiVo, it's also tenfold more efficient in its streaming capabilities. Plus, I have to believe there will be other Premier owners like myself who feel they've been duped, again, by all the hype from TiVo about what additions the Winter update will bring. Let's just say, I'm not a real happy TiVo owner/subscriber right now.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

ajwees41 said:


> for premiere it does if they didn't want to allow streaming of Prime on premiere why not take away netflix hulu and youtube since they are stearming some sort aren't they?


Not adding a new service is not the same as removing an existing service. TiVo needs to maintain the same level of Premiere service for the life of the product if possible but when new products are available, those must get the focus and premium features to make upgrading attractive. It is a for profit business and the expense necessary to add services like this to the Premiere would not be justified by increased revenue from the Premieres in service.

I have no complaint with TiVo's business practices in this regard, if it was my business, I wouldn't add these services to the Premiere. I own the Premiere with no plans of buying a Roamio, regardless so I am negatively impacted by the decision but that is just the way these things go.


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

MichaelAinNB said:


> I think it will go the other way. Sales will drop given the number of other streaming options available such as Roku. With its one-time cost, not only is Roku much cheaper than TiVo, it's also tenfold more efficient in its streaming capabilities.


True, it always amazed me that my first edition roku box from 2008 could stream Amazon prime, but my high end "all-in-one" box couldn't. Sure, it was all put on Amazon and the fact that they didn't want to do a new app on TiVo, but now this TiVo box really isn't as good as the 6 year old $100 streamer? Ok.

I get that they have to distinguish the different lines, but come on. Just call it an end of life, there will be no more enhancements. No, they say it can't do it? Ha


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I just find it sadly ironic that the one service I've been haranguing TiVo to properly support (and not in some sad, redheaded stepchild way, but a real way) for over 3 years now and the other service that I began to embrace this year and now have a big library in (VUDU) are *finally* arriving for TiVo... but only for the absolute latest generation of box and not the one that otherwise has suited me personally just fine. I don't care about any of the other apps. Rhapsody, Spotify, even YouTube and Netflix... I'd rather access on other boxes. VUDU would have been nice though. But no, TiVo teased me with the promise, and then surprised me with disappointment when it finally was introduced.

I felt the same way about the TiVo Mini, when it finally came out and seemed like a dream setup... only for them to later explain with a small asterisk that "sorry, this won't work on a 2-Tuner Premiere, you need a 4-Tuner Premiere to play ball with it." I never watch live TV, only recorded shows, and I never have a recording conflict either, so this lazy restriction is just annoying to me.

I realize TiVo has a bottom line and needs to have incentives for folks to upgrade their hardware, but the point for me (and maybe for them too) is that I'm just not DVR'ing a lot these days and can't justify the expense and hassle to do that whole upgrade.

And I know, deep down inside, the overall UX and speed of their Amazon Instant and VUDU apps will SUCK compared to the ultra-inexpensive Roku, anyway.

I'm at the point where I just need to bite the bullet and upgrade, or just shake my head and walk away already. TiVo has disappointed me too many times. This relationship isn't healthy.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> I just find it sadly ironic that the one service I've been haranguing TiVo to properly support (and not in some sad, redheaded stepchild way, but a real way) for over 3 years now and the other service that I began to embrace this year and now have a big library in (VUDU) are *finally* arriving for TiVo... but only for the absolute latest generation of box and not the one that otherwise has suited me personally just fine. I don't care about any of the other apps. Rhapsody, Spotify, even YouTube and Netflix... I'd rather access on other boxes. VUDU would have been nice though. But no, TiVo teased me with the promise, and then surprised me with disappointment when it finally was introduced.
> 
> I felt the same way about the TiVo Mini, when it finally came out and seemed like a dream setup... only for them to later explain with a small asterisk that "sorry, this won't work on a 2-Tuner Premiere, you need a 4-Tuner Premiere to play ball with it." I never watch live TV, only recorded shows, and I never have a recording conflict either, so this lazy restriction is just annoying to me.
> 
> ...


The apps on a Roamio/Mini are quite good. Way snappier then a Premiere. I don't have VUDU or Amazon yet but, Netflix is faster and nicer then my Samsung smart TV. If they actually add HBOGo then I'll never use my smart TV again.

Does your Premiere have lifetime? If so you can probably sell it for $300 and help mitigate the cost of the new Roamio.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

Test said:


> HBO go will be an app now? Guessing not on premiere?


Seeing as us Premier owners were "left out in the cold" with the Winter update (pun intended), more than likely not. But HBO GO IS available on Roku, along with Amazon Instant Video, Amazon Prime, Vudu, and NHL Game Center.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

MichaelAinNB said:


> HBO GO IS available on Roku...


Unless you have Comcast. Comcast does allow HBO GO on a Chromecast, for some reason.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I would concur that the Roamio hardware performance is significantly better than any other earlier hardware version and there's nothing about the Netflix implementation on a Roamio that makes me in any way concerned about performance of a VuDu or Amazon Prime Instant Video app on the Roamio.

The net positive benefits are integration of available content with searching mechanisms and the references that would be shown to available sources when browsing or searching through program data on the TiVo. Having to do separate searches from within each different app to determine the availability of something is not particularly helpful. Having use of a keyboard-based remote to do those searches is certainly a benefit too, even if not implemented as seamlessly as it could be -- i.e., no keyboard "enter" to start the search.

What I keep hoping for is another level of integration, like having some sort of "My Shows/Now Playing" integration with content from Netflix, VuDu or Amazon Prime based on wishlist items in each app, or paused content you started watching, or TV series you're currently progressing through. But I'm confident that I should not hold my breath for TiVo to implement such things. 

I have a Roamio Pro, Premiere XL4 and standard Premiere on my account. I only really keep the XL4 active as it's been my reliable backup to the unreliable Roamio Pro. Not that the CableCARD-related issues with the Roamio Pro have become relatively minimal (though not disappeared), that's less important to me. Though the XL4 is lifetime, and may at least can provide the live tuners to the Minis, so no particular need to get rid of it. The Premiere is on my bedroom TV, so it not having VuDu or Amazon Prime may mean I'd move to a mini on that TV. If I ever feel the need for OTA I still have the Premiere around as a worst-case backup device, though might consider replacing it with a Roamio Basic model. But since I have the Premier around anyway I don't really see a rush to worry about it; maybe they'll have a new model for OTA by the time I really have a need. And I do currently have something of a glut of TiVo Minis having acquired a few more than I reasonably need during the recent lifetime policy change. And I have a projection TV room coming online in the near future to consider how my viewing habits will change throughout the house. 

I recently upgraded my parents to a Roamio Pro and a couple Minis and a Slide Pro for each from a TiVo HD unit in anticipation of integration of VuDu and Amazon Prime Instant Video (which they currently access via a horrible -- absolutely horrible -- UI and remote control and S L O W -- Samsung Blu-ray app). It's been a smooth transition for them, fortunately. Total cost to me was under $1,000 for all the hardware including lifetime.

Nothing remains the same for long.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

pdhenry said:


> Unless you have Comcast. Comcast does allow HBO GO on a Chromecast, for some reason.


Comcast doesn't "allow" that, because it is an integrated feature of HBOGO.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

The links in the first post of this thread appear to be dead now. I wonder if TiVo is back peddling as I emailed them a few hours ago asking where the new apps are on my two Premiere 4s. I also told them I would be highly insulted if it is suggested I have to buy 2 new TiVos since I paid a little over $1300 for the two Premiere 4s I bought last summer.

If I do not get the Amazon Prime App on these Premieres I am done with TiVo since I can not find any reason why they can not make these available to Premiere owners.
If you look carefully at the sub numbers that was posted recently you will see that the consumer owned units are counted by the unit and not by the customer where as the cable company TiVo customers are counted by the household.
This means that there maybe as little as 200,000 actual retail subscribers since I figure that each customer owns at least two TiVo devices. Some on this forum own four or more. On the retail side TiVo has very little wiggle room to be pissing off or isolating customers. Also they have a very large series 4 base on the cable ops side so they will need a decent amount of series 4 retail owners to beta test on.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Comcast doesn't "allow" that, because it is an integrated feature of HBOGO.


I don't understand what you mean. pdhenry obviously meant to tyope "Comcast *doesn't* allow HBO GO..."

So what are you trying to add? "Comcast doesn't allow HBO GO access on a Chromecast, because it is an integrated feature of HBO GO?"

Huh?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Jed1 said:


> The links in the first post of this thread appear to be dead now. I wonder if TiVo is back peddling as I emailed them a few hours ago asking...


I seriously doubt it, but if you're correct, I may just upgrade to a Roamio after all to thank them


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Jed1 said:


> The links in the first post of this thread appear to be dead now.


They worked for me just now.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

dswallow said:


> They worked for me just now.


They do not work for me. I even went onto TiVos website and went to support and I could not get the links to Amazon and Vudu to work there. Everything else works fine on their website.
Make sure your browser is not loading an old page.

They were working before I emailed them about not having the two new Apps show up on my Premeire 4s.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Jed1 said:


> They do not work for me. I even went onto TiVos website and went to support and I could not get the links to Amazon and Vudu to work there. Everything else works fine on their website.
> Make sure your browser is not loading an old page.
> 
> They were working before I emailed them about not having the two new Apps show up on my Premeire 4s.


They are working fine for me and I never visited the links before now so it is not showing from my cache.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

Jed1 said:


> They do not work for me. I even went onto TiVos website and went to support and I could not get the links to Amazon and Vudu to work there. Everything else works fine on their website.
> Make sure your browser is not loading an old page.
> 
> They were working before I emailed them about not having the two new Apps show up on my Premeire 4s.


The links work for me same info as before. Don't know why it's not working for you.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

don't now what to think some one asked tivo Supprt via twitter if it was time to retire the premieres and they replied the updates where coming for the Premieres in 2015 not sure what though or how reliable.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Looks like Premiere boxes will get Vudu and Amazon Prime sometime in 2015.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/527575124904796161


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

My bad guys I had to go as far as resetting my browser back to its factory defaults. The links now work again. It is strange as every thing else worked except those links relating to Amazon and Vudu.
They stopped working after I logged into my account to contact TiVo to inquire about the Apps not being available on Premieres.
I do use tracking protection on IE11 and I have been starting to have some trouble lately viewing some websites like Twitter.

I am really pissed about this as I want to take these TiVos out and shoot them full of holes and then dump them in the garbage. I did this to a $1800 Pioneer receiver a number of years ago over a dispute about DTS Master Audio. They updated the receiver to handle Master Audio and it blew out my two front speakers. Pioneer blamed LG, which was the Blu ray player, and of course LG blamed Pioneer. I bought a Onkyo HTB and hooked up the LG Super Blu player and Master Audio worked fine. So the Pioneer went to the trash and I never bought their product again. 

I am really getting tired of this constant need to keep replacing devices because of supposed incompatibility issues. I am not made of money and money is getting very difficult to come by so I am making some decisions to do away with this type of nonsense in my life. I have been contemplating eliminating TV from my life completely and just watch movies on Blu ray.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

bradleys said:


> Looks like Premiere boxes will get Vudu and Amazon Prime sometime in 2015.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/527575124904796161


Excellent news - I'm somewhat surprised, but we'll take it! I still have that moth balled 2-tuner Premiere waiting for a $99 Lifetime sub... hm.

Will message moderator to see if we can change the thread title and I edited my opening post.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

bradleys said:


> Looks like Premiere boxes will get Vudu and Amazon Prime sometime in 2015.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/527575124904796161












This rollercoaster hasn't been good on my heart.  Happy to wait for 2015 though. TiVo redeemed themselves a bit in my eyes, in one single tweet. :up:

History has prepared me though, to expect the unexpected. A few months from now I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they disavow any knowledge of this tweet, and say that new apps aren't coming to Premieres at all. I guess we'll see.


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## Mike Lang (Nov 17, 1999)

davezatz said:


> Will message moderator to see if we can change the thread title and I edited my opening post.


Done.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Jed1 said:


> I am really pissed about this as I want to take these TiVos out and shoot them full of holes and then dump them in the garbage. I did this to a $1800 Pioneer receiver a number of years ago over a dispute about DTS Master Audio. They updated the receiver to handle Master Audio and it blew out my two front speakers. Pioneer blamed LG, which was the Blu ray player, and of course LG blamed Pioneer. I bought a Onkyo HTB and hooked up the LG Super Blu player and Master Audio worked fine. So the Pioneer went to the trash and I never bought their product again.
> 
> I am really getting tired of this constant need to keep replacing devices because of supposed incompatibility issues.


And how do you feel... now


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Fofer said:


> And how do you feel... now


I really do not see why Premiere owners have to wait. It makes no sense.

As for how I feel, I still do not trust them if they are going to pull nonsense like this.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I'm racking my brain to think and prepare myself for the inevitable surprise disappointment that will follow.

Hmm.

Will that "later update (2015)" not be released until Christmas 2015?
Will they only work in 4-tuner Premieres? (Mine's a 2-tuner.)
Will they be "buy only, watching not allowed?"

There's gotta be a catch.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

This was probably a recent decision. They were probably going to make them Roamio exclusive to drive sales, but very recently changed their minds to prevent the bad will. But they didn't test them on Premieres so they have to wait for the next release so that they can test the apps on the Premiere units during the beta cycle.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

On the bright side, the order of this news coming out has made me happy. If the feature came out and they said "sorry, it's not coming to Premieres until some time until 2015" I would have been sad for many months. 

But since the notes leaked first, and led us to believe it would be for Roamio only... I was initially gutted... and now that we learn it is actually, eventually coming to Premieres too, I feel delighted and relieved.  

If they planned it this way, I say, "well played, TiVo... well played."  :up:


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The 'ol... make them think it's not coming out at all so they'll be relieved instead of upset when they find out it's just delayed... trick.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

Fofer said:


> On then bright side, the order of this news coming out has made me happy. If the feature came out and they said "sorry, it's not coming to Premieres until some time until 2015" I would have been sad for many months.
> 
> But since the notes leaked first, and led us to believe it would be for Roamio only... I was initially gutted... and now that we learn it is actually, eventually coming to Premieres too, I feel delighted and relieved.
> 
> If they planned it this way, I say, "well played, TiVo... well played."  :up:


how reliable is Tivosupport on twitter vs TivoMargret on twitter? any guesses on why the delay? I say Amazon issues


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

ajwees41 said:


> how reliable is Tivosupport on twitter vs TivoMargret on twitter? any guesses on why the delay? I say Amazon issues


Very reliable - tivo guards information very closely... Most of the issues we deal with are rumors and expectations. But if Margret commits - you can take it to the bank.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Fofer said:


> I don't understand what you mean. pdhenry obviously meant to tyope "Comcast *doesn't* allow HBO GO..."
> 
> So what are you trying to add? "Comcast doesn't allow HBO GO access on a Chromecast, because it is an integrated feature of HBO GO?"
> 
> Huh?


No, Comcast *doesn't *allow HBO GO on a *Roku*, but they either explicitly _do _allow it on a Chromecast or don't have a say in the matter.

While Roku has an HBO GO app, in order to use it you have to log in with your provider account credentials to validate that you're an approved HBO subscriber. With a Comcast account you get a message that it's not authorized on that device.

I guess the subtle difference might be that HBO GO on a Chromecast is being initiated from a computer or mobile device that has been authorized separately by Comcast to display HBO content. There isn't a separate authorization login on the Chromecast.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

pdhenry said:


> I guess the subtle difference might be that HBO GO on a Chromecast is being initiated from a computer or mobile device that has been authorized separately by Comcast to display HBO content. There isn't a separate authorization login on the Chromecast.


Exactly. That's why Comcast can't stop you from using a Chromecast with HBOGO unless it completely banned people from using HBOGO on computers and mobile devices. Sadly, they can prevent you from authorizing the Roku app. I wonder if Comcast will allow the HBO app on the Amazon Fire TV box when it finally gets the HBO app.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

bradleys said:


> Scott, don't you think it might be time to upgrade?


Nope eeking every last cent of use out of these that we can. 

We bought them in December/January 2006/2007 when they were $600 each due to the $199 lifetime transfer from our S1's (TiVo was no longer offering lifetime at that time with no signs that it was coming back).

Since they are still performing fine and doing what we need, I'm guessing Comcast switching to mpeg4 at some point in the future is probably what will drive us to upgrade. Hoping to hit at least 10 years though!

Scott


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Well Scott... You are n for a treat when you finally upgrade!


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

bradleys said:


> Very reliable - tivo guards information very closely... Most of the issues we deal with are rumors and expectations. But if Margret commits - you can take it to the bank.


does Margret post under tivo support, or just her twitter handle though? if it does come most likely will be December 31, 2014


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

As I stated earlier I do not understand the need to delay the 2 apps to some other time for Premiere owners. I looked at the Amazon Instant Video devices listed on their site and it appears that there really has be no device after about 2010 that has the Amazon Instant Video App. They all have Amazon Prime Instant Video. So how many customers are actually using the older app.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv/devices?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0 
Also I do not see my Premiere 4 model listed on the devices page. This is making me think that there could have been some hardware changes to the Premiere line for later models.
When I was looking for the build date on my TiVo I noticed that the 10m and 100m lights on the port of my switch that the TiVo is plug into are both lit and flashing at the same time which indicates 1 gigabit speed. The ports my Onkyo and OPPO are hooked into only have the 100m port lit and blinking.
My TiVo was built in Mexico in December of 2012.

Amazon has a list of the device features for each manufacturer.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201460880

Also it appears that Amazon changes the requirements for their service which also can render a compatible device incompatible at any time.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201422760

I would much prefer that they release the apps now as I do not trust them to follow through down the road. I can hear the excuses now as the reason the apps will be delayed. Like there was sunspots or some other really stupid reason.
The saying "A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush". applies here.

Also Amazon will gain more money from the Prime Video than the old Instant Video as I will sign up for Amazon Prime as soon as the App is available.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

ajwees41 said:


> does Margret post under tivo support, or just her twitter handle though? if it does come most likely will be December 31, 2014


The tweet said "2015" so...


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

Fofer said:


> The tweet said "2015" so...


typo thanks for catching it.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Seeing as how you can get $99 lifetime service on a Premiere, I'm amazed they would provide anymore updates at all. I would just get a Chromecast or a Roku if I wanted additional streaming services. It's not worth the cost of a Roamio if you're happy with the Premiere or older model Tivo, just to add more streaming services.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Jed1 said:


> As I stated earlier I do not understand the need to delay the 2 apps to some other time for Premiere owners.


Two theories...

1) They want these apps to be exclusive to the Roamio for a while to try and boost upgrade sales.

2) They just changed their mind on supporting these on the Premiere units and now have to run a special beta to ensure they work properly before releasing them to the public.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Two theories...
> 
> 1) They want these apps to be exclusive to the Roamio for a while to try and boost upgrade sales.
> 
> 2) They just changed their mind on supporting these on the Premiere units and now have to run a special beta to ensure they work properly before releasing them to the public.


I think #2 is closer to the truth. I would guess that they had to prioritize the development and test effort to focus on the Roamio and Mini hardware platforms to have the new apps released before the holiday shopping season. I suspect the effort to port the new apps to the almost identical Premiere Haxe code base is relatively straight forward.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

Was formally announced this morning on TiVo.com. No mention of anything but Roamio and TiVo Mini.

http://blog.tivo.com/2014/10/vudu-launches-on-tivo/


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Jed1 said:


> As I stated earlier I do not understand the need to delay the 2 apps to some other time for Premiere owners.


I've only skimmed the thread, but I didn't see anybody mention performance reasons.

AFAIK, Roamios are FAR faster and beefier in other ways (RAM?) than Premieres.. Just like Premieres were dirt slow with the HD UI, maybe it's taking them a lot longer to get it acceptable performance with Amazon Prime, etc., on Premieres.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

With the last update, the HDUI was rewritten from Flash into Haxe, and it's much, much faster. The difference is very noticeable on my Premiere.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

sbiller said:


> I think #2 is closer to the truth. I would guess that they had to prioritize the development and test effort to focus on the Roamio and Mini hardware platforms to have the new apps released before the holiday shopping season. I suspect the effort to port the new apps to the almost identical Premiere Haxe code base is relatively straight forward.


how much different are they if they both run the same UI now? Is there that big of a difference in hardware between the Premerie and Roamio?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

ajwees41 said:


> how much different are they if they both run the same UI now? Is there that big of a difference in hardware between the Premerie and Roamio?


Yes, there is. Huge difference. As evidenced by how much faster the Roamio was when running the older opsys.

The fact the Premiere is so much better now is not related to its hardware, but how much better the Haxe system is.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> Two theories...
> 
> 1) They want these apps to be exclusive to the Roamio for a while to try and boost upgrade sales.
> 
> 2) They just changed their mind on supporting these on the Premiere units and now have to run a special beta to ensure they work properly before releasing them to the public.





sbiller said:


> I think #2 is closer to the truth. I would guess that they had to prioritize the development and test effort to focus on the Roamio and Mini hardware platforms to have the new apps released before the holiday shopping season. I suspect the effort to port the new apps to the almost identical Premiere Haxe code base is relatively straight forward.


This is why TiVo has been losing subs for years as they needlessly abuse the owners of past platforms. Buying a TiVo is no cheap thing as I have put out a little over $1300 last summer for these two Premiere 4s.
I am not amused one bit that TiVo would ever think that I will drop what I have and go and spend over a thousand dollars just to get two apps when there is no reason that they didn't offer them to us now.

The reason why the two series have the same software is because most of the cable TV boxes are series 4s. They count the cable subs by household and not by device so it is possible that there are close to 10 million series 4 units in use. Also it is not known how many other series 4 units that the cable ops have yet to issue.
My cable company was testing the series 4 TiVo just this spring for use in my system but TiVo wanted to much money for the set up. They opted for the rebadged Moxi that Arris is offering. They did not even bother inquiring how much they wanted for the T6 which is the Roamio.
When it comes to cable operators when they put devices in their system they maybe in use for years until they take them out. The average break even point for getting back the cost of purchasing a HD DVR STB is about 5 years. So I know for a fact that the series 4 boxes will be around for a long time. My system still has the Motorola DCT 1700 in use, which is now 13 years old. They still have some new ones yet. If TiVo thinks that these operators are going to keep buying the latest and greatest TiVo will not be in that business for long.

As it stands right now I do not trust TiVo will do the right thing and add these apps to the Premieres. If they don't I will never buy one of their products again. I will not reward companies with my money for ignorant behavior. I am tired of people acting like TiVo is doing them some type of favor. I paid TiVo money not the other way around. Also I am not amused that I have to beta test a product so I can use it or put up with events like the boxes rebooting themselves over and over again like what happened the other week. If TiVo thinks that cable ops will put up with this nonsense they got another thing coming.
Also I do not give a rats ass what hardware is used in any box as this is just another convenient excuse for TiVo being ignorant and stupid to paying customers. As the old saying goes excuses are like *******s everybody has one. Stop accepting TiVos excuses when you paid for their product.
TiVo better start taking care of the customers they have and not the ones they hope to have. They could have given Premiere owners the two apps as this would not have any negative effect on potential new TiVo owners as the Premiere line is no longer available for sale. They can not expect that a diminishing group of people will buy their product over and over again. This is a stupid business plan and it is apparent that it is not working as their sub numbers show this every quarter.

I am not yelling at you two guys as I hope you will understand what I am trying to say here. I agree that TiVo originally up to very recently had no intention of thinking of putting these two apps on the Premiere line. Also if you carefully read what Margaret posted she said its possible they will be released to the Premiere in a future update. So by her own words and also even more questionable words I got in a reply from TiVo about this, I would say that it is less likely to happen. This may be an attempt to appease some new and recent Premiere owners as TiVo was still selling Premiere units up until late spring of this year. I bought my two a month before the Roamio was released and I did not get any deal on them.

If it wasn't for the large amount of series 4 units in use by the cable ops TiVo would have not included the Haxe rewrite for the Premiere units. They would have kicked the Premiere owners to the curb last year when the Roamio line was released. TiVo figured that the apps would not be released for use by cable systems so they ignorantly excluded them from the Premiere units even knowing that the Premiere owners were expecting at least the Amazon Prime app. This is the reason why I signed up for the first time for the priority update. My plan was to immediately sign up for a Prime account as soon as the app was available so I also can also take advantage of the free two day shipping for Christmas. Well it is obvious that is not going to happen this year or maybe never with Premieres.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

After trying the Amazon Prime app on my Romaios and Minis, I couldn't imagine trying to use it on my Premiere. Navigation is sluggish on the Romaios and Minis. While the Vudu app navigation is quick.

Maybe they need to optimize it better? But with the UI sluggishness on the Romaios and Minis it was probably a good idea not to release it on the Premiere yet.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

aaronwt said:


> After trying the Amazon Prime app on my Romaios and Minis, I couldn't imagine trying to use it on my Premiere. Navigation is sluggish on the Romaios and Minis. While the Vudu app navigation is quick.
> 
> Maybe they need to optimize it better? But with the UI sluggishness on the Romaios and Minis it was probably a good idea not to release it on the Premiere yet.


If you look at the devices listed on Amazon's site that have prime embedded in it some of those devices have older and slower hardware in them.

Also you better read more closely what Margaret posted about the Premiere getting the apps,


> *At this time*, I *expect* both VUDU and the new Amazon Instant Video app to be available on TiVo Premiere in the first half of 2015


.

Also here is the reply I finally got from Tivo this evening after two days of waiting about the apps,


> *We plan to release* these applications to the TiVo Premiere boxes in a later software update but do not currently have an estimation as to when this will become available.


As you can see there is no certainty that this will happen.

I believe TiVo did this on purpose in order to cajole Premiere owners to junk their boxes and buy Roamios as to increase their retail sales of Roamios. In my case I just plopped down over $1300 for my two Premiere 4s late last summer. I am also quite certain that there is other people who dropped some hard earned cash in the past year for their Premieres also.
Another thing it will in no way hurt future sales of Roamios either as the Premiere is no longer for retail sale so it would be really dumb for TiVo to stick it to Premiere owners.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

Jed1 said:


> As it stands right now I do not trust TiVo will do the right thing and add these apps to the Premieres. If they don't I will never buy one of their products again. I will not reward companies with my money for ignorant behavior. I am tired of people acting like TiVo is doing them some type of favor. I paid TiVo money not the other way around. I do not give a rats ass what hardware is used in any box as this is just another convenient excuse for TiVo being ignorant and stupid to paying customers. As the old saying goes excuses are like *******s everybody has one. Stop accepting TiVos excuses when you paid for their product.
> TiVo better start taking care of the customers they have and not the ones they hope to have.


Yikes. And I thought *I* was pissed off about TiVo totally snubbing Premier owners with the Winter Update. I found your statement that you're tired of people acting like TiVo is doing them some type of favor particularly ironic. In a post in another thread, a TiVo Design VP outlined what the recent Winter Update will bring. As a 13-year TiVo customer and an owner of three Premier boxes (and one S3), I responded with, admittedly some rather harsh words thanking her for "nothing" because that is exactly what the update brings me. Several people responded to my post, all of them chastising me for my comments. One person actually said I should be thankful TiVo is "being so kind" to Premier owners. So yeah, I guess we should be singing TiVo praises for allowing us Premier owning peons the pleasure of being allowed to continue to give TiVo our hard earned money every month.

My only words of advice are, do what I did earlier today and reinforce your displeasure with action. I canceled one of my Premier subscriptions (the most costly of the three I have) which puts $20 a month in my pocket and takes $20 a month out of theirs.

Couldn't agree more with your post. :up:


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Jed1 said:


> Also if you carefully read what Margaret posted she said its possible they will be released to the Premiere in a future update. So by her own words and also even more questionable words I got in a reply from TiVo about this, I would say that it is less likely to happen. .


This tweet seems rather certain about it:










And there is no phrase "its possible" in Margret's post here:



TiVoMargret said:


> At this time, I expect both VUDU and the new Amazon Instant Video app to be available on TiVo Premiere in the first half of 2015.


I believe her, and I will remain patient. I'm relieved and grateful TiVo's done the right thing.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

MichaelAinNB said:


> Yikes. And I thought *I* was pissed off about TiVo totally snubbing Premier owners with the Winter Update. I found your statement that you're tired of people acting like TiVo is doing them some type of favor particularly ironic. In a post in another thread, a TiVo Design VP outlined what the recent Winter Update will bring. As a 13-year TiVo customer and an owner of three Premier boxes (and one S3), I responded with, admittedly some rather harsh words thanking her for "nothing" because that is exactly what the update brings me. Several people responded to my post, all of them chastising me for my comments. One person actually said I should be thankful TiVo is "being so kind" to Premier owners. So yeah, I guess we should be singing TiVo praises for allowing us Premier owning peons the pleasure of being allowed to continue to give TiVo our hard earned money every month.
> 
> My only words of advice are, do what I did earlier today and reinforce your displeasure with action. I canceled one of my Premier subscriptions (the most costly of the three I have) which puts $20 a month in my pocket and takes $20 a month out of theirs.
> 
> Couldn't agree more with your post. :up:


Thanks. I work hard for my money and it is not getting any easier to earn either. My two units are lifetime but I will remove these two units and smash them and dump them in the garbage and never give TiVo any more of my money. Then TiVo management can explain to the shareholders why they keep losing consumer subs and see if BS works on them.

LG tried this same type of nonsense with us LG BH 200 Super Blu owners as they kept claiming that the hardware in the unit could not support Blu ray Profile 2. It took the threat of a lawsuit by a number of us owners and walla 18 hours later there was an update available for the unit to make it profile 2. That was in 2008 and I still use the player today as it still plays the most current Blu ray discs yet. Most of us bought the player in late 2007 and January 2008 for $1000 dollars. Of course the format war ended in February of 2008. By June of 2008 LG was already abandoning the player. This is when the excuses started and they kept saying we should buy the new BH 300 to get Profile 2. I also never bought another LG product since then.

As you can see TiVo is pulling the same crap. I don't buy that the hardware doesn't support these apps.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Fofer said:


> This tweet seems rather certain about it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read her words carefully. At this time I expect this to happen. It is those first five words that put doubt in the outcome. In fact it already could be changed to not to happen as this will not be left up to her but upper management. She worded it in a way that she would not have to back peddle on a promise.
Also TiVo support just replied to me at 9:04 PM on the 30th of October which says they have no real ETA about this happening. As you can see in a days time between the reply to Dave and then to me how the message has changed.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

Fofer said:


> I believe her, and I will remain patient. I'm relieved and grateful TiVo's done the right thing.


Your loyalty and faith in TiVo are commendable. However, the words "At this time" and "I expect" do leave some wiggle room for a change in plans at some point in the future. Also, I haven't seen anything indicating ALL Premier boxes will have access to Prime and Vudu which makes me a little suspicious. I wouldn't put it past TiVo to release an update for only the XL4 and say something like, "Hey, we never said all versions of the Premier would receive the update".
If I were a "cheese" at TiVo, and if the company truly plans on providing the Prime and Vudu app to all Premier boxes in an upcoming update, I'd immediately release a statement apologizing for any misunderstanding the Winter Update caused subscribers who own a Premier box and were expecting access to Prime and Vudu. I would also identify the date, or at the very least, the _season_ the update will be issued, that Premier owners can expect to receive the Prime and Vudu app. Words like "At this time", "I expect" and "In the first half of 2015" are a world apart from "All Premier owners will receive an update including the Amazon Prime and Vudu applications in a future update which will be....".

I don't know how long you've been a TiVo customer but this carrot-dangling with Prime and Vudu sure sounds a lot like what they did when they kept promising a Netflix app was imminent. Finally, after what I believe was close to three years, TiVo finally came through on their promise and provided a Netflix app.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Jed1 said:


> Read her words carefully. At this time I expect this to happen. It is those first five words that put doubt in the outcome. In fact it already could be changed to not to happen as this will not be left up to her but upper management. She worded it in a way that she would not have to back peddle on a promise.


Nah, I think it'll come out in 2015 as promised, and Margret's post narrowed down that promise to the first six months of 2015.



MichaelAinNB said:


> I don't know how long you've been a TiVo customer


I have been a TiVo customer since 1999, when the first TiVo was offered for sale.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Jed1 said:


> Read her words carefully.<snip>


Geez Louise, is there some part of "will be available in a later update (2015)" that's not as clear as the space between your ears?

Will. Be. Available.



Jed1 said:


> Also TiVo support just replied to me at 9:04 PM on the 30th of October which says they have no real ETA about this happening.


Of course they won't give an ETA. They've said 2015, they've publicly committed, it will happen. But they're not going to say "April 20 at 6:30am".

You whiners are killing me. Don't like it? Go find something you like more. (Oh wait, there isn't anything remotely close to these products on the market today. )


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> Thanks. I work hard for my money and it is not getting any easier to earn either. My two units are lifetime but I will remove these two units and smash them and dump them in the garbage and never give TiVo any more of my money. Then TiVo management can explain to the shareholders why they keep losing consumer subs and see if BS works on them.
> 
> LG tried this same type of nonsense with us LG BH 200 Super Blu owners as they kept claiming that the hardware in the unit could not support Blu ray Profile 2. It took the threat of a lawsuit by a number of us owners and walla 18 hours later there was an update available for the unit to make it profile 2. That was in 2008 and I still use the player today as it still plays the most current Blu ray discs yet. Most of us bought the player in late 2007 and January 2008 for $1000 dollars. Of course the format war ended in February of 2008. By June of 2008 LG was already abandoning the player. This is when the excuses started and they kept saying we should buy the new BH 300 to get Profile 2. I also never bought another LG product since then.
> 
> As you can see TiVo is pulling the same crap. I don't buy that the hardware doesn't support these apps.


Don't forget the $75 that LG gave use for each player too. As part of the deal of not upgrading them. I got $225 from LG and then they upgraded the boxes anyway.

I had three of the BH200 players. I traded two of them in to Amazon for $400 each earlier this year. I would have done the third one but Amazon changed the listing after I collected the $800 in Amazon credit. I only paid around $200 for each my my three BH200 players since they were open box. So I actually made money on them. I had stopped using them since they are too slow anyway.

I don't expect TiVo to do anything like that on a mass scale. But I did get a free Mini from them earlier this year which appeased me with the issue that occurred back then.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

Fofer said:


> I have been a TiVo customer since 1999, when the first TiVo was offered for sale.


 A couple years longer than me. 
Then you'll remember how long TiVo strung us along with promises of a Netflix app.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I thought TiVo was one of the first devices to get Netflix streaming?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

To my recollection it was, but it was so tragically bad if was unusable. Literally would reboot once or twice through every movie.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

MichaelAinNB said:


> A couple years longer than me.
> Then you'll remember how long TiVo strung us along with promises of a Netflix app.


Multistream CableCARD on S3?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Fofer said:


> To my recollection it was, but it was so tragically bad if was unusable. Literally would reboot once or twice through every movie.


Do you remember all the angry posts when the Series 3 got Netflix and the Series 2 didn't? I remember it quite well!!!

I have always tried to be smart in my TiVo upgrades and have really never been disappointed in those decisions. I don't believe I remember TiVo supporting two product lines at the same time, so this ongoing Premiere support is rather refreshing.

I do think it may be about time to sell my Premiere and recoup the lifetime service fee value from it. It can easily be replaced by a second Mini and I can save the cable card fee.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

aaronwt said:


> Don't forget the $75 that LG gave use for each player too. As part of the deal of not upgrading them. I got $225 from LG and then they upgraded the boxes anyway.
> 
> I had three of the BH200 players. I traded two of them in to Amazon for $400 each earlier this year. I would have done the third one but Amazon changed the listing after I collected the $800 in Amazon credit. I only paid around $200 for each my my three BH200 players since they were open box. So I actually made money on them. I had stopped using them since they are too slow anyway.
> 
> I don't expect TiVo to do anything like that on a mass scale. But I did get a free Mini from them earlier this year which appeased me with the issue that occurred back then.


I actually did not get the $75 deal which ticked me off even more. I wish I would have known about the $400 trade in as I would have jumped on that.

Around the same time as the LG debacle I had a Pioneer Elite receiver that had a problem with Master Audio and when I tried my first movie with Master audio, it blew out my two front speakers. Pioneer blamed LG and LG blamed Pioneer.
I bought a Onkyo HTIB and tried the same movie using the BH 200 and it worked fine. Pioneer still refused to do anything about it so I ended up throwing the Pioneer receiver, which I paid $1800 for, in the garbage. What was even more frustrating I bought two 8G kuros when I bought the receiver. I never bought another product from Pioneer again.

If I have to I will destroy these two TiVos and never buy them again. I only have TiVo for one year now and up until that point I got by just fine in my life with out TiVo. With the cost of TV programming constantly going up and the quality constantly going down I can logically see and end to watching TV in the future. I will adapt and find something better to do with the time I have left on this earth.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

Jed1 said:


> If you look at the devices listed on Amazon's site that have prime embedded in it some of those devices have older and slower hardware in them.
> 
> Also you better read more closely what Margaret posted about the Premiere getting the apps,
> .
> ...


If Tivo wanted more Roamio users why say it's coming in 2015?


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

ajwees41 said:


> If Tivo wanted more Roamio users why say it's coming in 2015?


Again read her first five words in her statement,


> At this time, I expect...apps....in 2015.


The time frame she quoted is irrelevant as she gave absolutely no certainty that it will happen.

I am a engineer/technical person and have been to seminars that train CSRs and upper management for the cable/sat industry. They are trained to use certain language which does not confirm or deny anything in order to keep the customer happy. This also deflects the possibility of any legal ramifications to the company.

Margaret is using such language and it is working on you. This is stopping you from complaining and you will now sit and wait until at least next June for something that may or may not happen. You will then get disgusted and you will either go away quietly and stay a TiVo customer or upgrade to the Roamio to get the feature if you want it badly enough.

This is the reply I got from TiVo last night:

Response (*****) 10/30/2014 06:04 PM 
Hello,

Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support. I apologize for the troubles you've had with Vudu and Amazon Prime. I would be more than happy to help you with this!

Vudu and Amazon Prime are currently only available on the TiVo Roamio models. We plan to release these applications to the TiVo Premiere boxes in a later software update but do not currently have an estimation as to when this will become available. We apologize for any inconvenience and thank you for your continued patience with this matter.

Please contact us again if you have any questions or concerns and we would be happy to help you. Thank you for choosing TiVo and have a great day!

********-*******is the reference number for this inquiry. Please refer to this number if you choose to contact us again regarding this request. In order to respond to this email, please log into your account at www.tivo.com/mysupport. Replies directly to this email will not be received.

Sincerely,
*****

TiVo Customer Support Representative
www.tivo.com/support

Notice that they say they PLAN to release and then give no certain time frame.
Then notice the next sentence as this is used heavily by CSRs:


> We apologize for any inconvenience and thank you for your continued patience with this matter.


They want me to be patience with the idea I will stay their customer and then eventually give up and let it go.
If I had a dollar for each time that statement is used I would be a billionaire today.

Remember you paid TiVo and TiVo is not paying you.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Software and firmware have blurred the line considerably between what you really buy when you buy a product, and what is "owed" to you in the future, after you have bought the product.

I just don't really see how a feature that didn't exist when you bought a piece of hardware and wasn't promised to you when you bought that piece of hardware should even possibly be held against anyone if never provided for that piece of hardware.

Great, if they ultimately do provide it. But if they don't, and it is something available only on hardware you didn't buy, there's just no point of argument here.

You didn't buy it. You're not owed it. That's not how it works.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dswallow said:


> Software and firmware have blurred the line considerably between what you really buy when you buy a product, and what is "owed" to you in the future, after you have bought the product.
> 
> I just don't really see how a feature that didn't exist when you bought a piece of hardware and wasn't promised to you when you bought that piece of hardware should even possibly be held against anyone if never provided for that piece of hardware.
> 
> ...


Well, I certainly don't agree with this.

There is a middle ground between "I want all updates forever" and "you aren't entitled to any updates, ever."

You certainly expect to get updates on new hardware, and you expect those updates to continue until the next hardware version comes out. And even then you expect to get SOME of the updates.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Grakthis said:


> Well, I certainly don't agree with this.
> 
> There is a middle ground between "I want all updates forever" and "you aren't entitled to any updates, ever."
> 
> You certainly expect to get updates on new hardware, and you expect those updates to continue until the next hardware version comes out. And even then you expect to get SOME of the updates.


I expect updates to preserve functionality and to correct bugs and other problems that are discovered.

It's like operating systems and software -- you buy a particular release; you get numerous updates/service packs for years, fixing vulnerabilities and bugs that are discovered. You rarely get new features. Those come with your upgrade to the next version/release of the OS.

What does your Premier NOT do today that it did when you bought it?


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## jakep_82 (Oct 28, 2014)

I don't see any difference between my Tivo and the laptop I bought a few months ago with Windows 8. I expect Microsoft to continue fixing bugs for the next few years, but I am in no way entitled to Windows 10 when it's released. I bought a computer with a certain set of features, and if I decide I want more features down the road it's on me to pay for the upgrade.

All that said I think examining the language used is silly. It would be a very bad PR move to say they're releasing the apps only to rescind it later. Tivo is smarter than that. And if you need further proof, they said "To clarify, the Amazon Prime and VUDU apps will be available for Premiere boxes in a later update (2015)." on their official TiVo Support Twitter account. That wording leaves no doubt in my mind that these apps are coming to the Premiere next year.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

I should have the Amazon and Vudu apps on my Roamio later today to test for myself, but I've noticed several mentions of sluggishness in the Amazon app even on the much more powerful Roamio software. I'm thinking the Amazon app does not use HTML5, but is a custom implementation specifically for Tivo.

If the Roamio has some trouble running the new Amazon app, I can only imagine what it would be like on a Premiere if it was available today. Furthermore, it sounds like only the Roamio and Mini will be able to do 1080p; the Premiere will only be able to handle lesser quality. In all honesty, it truly sounds like the Amazon app on the Premiere is gonna require some additional optimization and different integration based on the lower powered hardware.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> Again read her first five words in her statement,
> 
> The time frame she quoted is irrelevant as she gave absolutely no certainty that it will happen.
> 
> ...


If you are in the industry then you should understand that this is the ONLY honest response than can be given. At this time it is their intention to deliver the apps on Premieres in an update next year. However, things happen. No one with any sort of management responsibility in any organization is going to give a hard and fast promise. There are liability issues attached if they do. I am a computer software product manager and I never promise a feature will be in any given release because I can't. If I did, I would be lying. The best ANYONE can do regarding future deliverables is tell you what is on their roadmap, which is exactly what Margret did.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

tatergator1 said:


> I should have the Amazon and Vudu apps on my Roamio later today to test for myself, but I've noticed several mentions of sluggishness in the Amazon app even on the much more powerful Roamio software. I'm thinking the Amazon app does not use HTML5, but is a custom implementation specifically for Tivo.
> 
> If the Roamio has some trouble running the new Amazon app, I can only imagine what it would be like on a Premiere if it was available today. Furthermore, it sounds like only the Roamio and Mini will be able to do 1080p; the Premiere will only be able to handle lesser quality. In all honesty, it truly sounds like the Amazon app on the Premiere is gonna require some additional optimization and different integration based on the lower powered hardware.


Yeah I'm wondering about that too. The app is pretty slow on the Roamio so it could be unusable on the Premiere. Maybe the delay is due to them redoing the app in a format that is optimized for the TiVo platform so that it has snappier response even on the Premiere hardware.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

This is boring. Like I need yet another device to support these apps LOL. And what's with the love of downloading? Streaming makes so much more sense...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Bigg said:


> This is boring. Like I need yet another device to support these apps LOL. And what's with the love of downloading? Streaming makes so much more sense...


There are some people without sufficiently fast internet connections who cannot stream successfully.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> This is boring. Like I need yet another device to support these apps LOL. And what's with the love of downloading? Streaming makes so much more sense...


Yeah I don't use Vudu. Neither Prime. The bug fixes didn't do anything for me.

Personally speaking, post-update is just status quo.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

astrohip said:


> You whiners are killing me. Don't like it? Go find something you like more. (Oh wait, there isn't anything remotely close to these products on the market today. )


And yet another apparent dropout of "Business 101" is heard from. Do you really expect a business model of, "Buy our product because we're currently the only quality product on the market" to continue to be successful? Or maybe TiVo should go with, "Buy us! We're currently the best of the worst!" And what happens the second Google or Apple or ACME Electronics developes a product that parallels TiVo? You don't think we're going to remember how TiVo treated us when they were the "only game in town"? I know I will. Which is why none of the four devices we currently own have a lifetime subscritpion. Thankfully, I saw what TiVo was doing and didn't give them my money up front. The second something comparable comes along, and it will, I won't be able to dial up TiVo fast enough to cancel their service. And yes, I will be sure to let everyone know so they can buy my TiVo devices and continue to drink the TiVo koolaid.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I'm really glad I paid for lifetime on every TiVo I have owned since 1999... It was a wise move and ended up saving me a lot of money over the monthly fee.

I have been annoyed by many of their decisions but in this case, they say VUDU and Amazon are coming eventually to my Premiere and I believe them. If I had the level of anger and distrust towards them like you do, I would have dropped them long ago. Life's too short to live with that level of negativity.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

MichaelAinNB said:


> And yet another apparent dropout of "Business 101" is heard from. Do you really expect a business model of, "Buy our product because we're currently the only quality product on the market" to continue to be successful? Or maybe TiVo should go with, "Buy us! We're currently the best of the worst!" And what happens the second Google or Apple or ACME Electronics developes a product that parallels TiVo? You don't think we're going to remember how TiVo treated us when they were the "only game in town"? I know I will. Which is why none of the four devices we currently own have a lifetime subscritpion. Thankfully, I saw what TiVo was doing and didn't give them my money up front. The second something comparable comes along, and it will, I won't be able to dial up TiVo fast enough to cancel their service. And yes, I will be sure to let everyone know so they can buy my TiVo devices and continue to drink the TiVo koolaid.


It's hilarious how someone who owns 4 Tivos hates them so much. And hilarious how the same person pays monthly and thinks that's putting one over on Tivo.

What's really going on in your life? I just don't believe your anger is just cause you didn't get Prime yesterday when no one said it was coming nevermind that no one said it was coming the day you bought your boxes either.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

trip1eX said:


> It's hilarious how someone who owns 4 Tivos hates them so much. And hilarious how the same person pays monthly and thinks that's putting one over on Tivo.
> 
> What's really going on in your life? I just don't believe your anger is just cause you didn't get Prime yesterday when no one said it was coming nevermind that no one said it was coming the day you bought your boxes either.


I've been told via PM's that you're just an agitator and I should ignore you but please don't put words in my mouth. I have never said anything about "hating" TiVo. I am quite content with their product. How I feel about their business practices is a different story but I feel their product is OK. Matter of fact, I have agreed they are currently the best thing going. The best of the worst, if you will. And hey, if TiVo is OK with a customer feeling that way, all I can say is, they had better make their money while they can. What I don't care for (notice I didn't use the word "hate") is how they have little if any regard for owners of _slightly_ older platforms. Is it really too much to ask that a product I purchased less than three measly years ago and spent hundreds of dollars on, continues to receive updates? And don't confuse "updates" with "bug fixes". I don't think that's too much to ask. I own an iPad2 which is, I think at least two versions behind Apple's current iPad release yet I still get the same updates owners of the iPad4 do. Gee, ya think that may have something to do with Apple's success? The Premier is what, one version behind the latest TiVo release yet it appears we're being snubbed. And yeah, I saw the releases from TiVo saying they "expect to" and they "plan to" make Prime and Vudu available to Premier boxes "sometime" in the first six months of 2015. Sorry, but that doesn't sound very promising to me. And, according to several posts from other Premier owners, they're not holding their breath either.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Bigg said:


> This is boring. Like I need yet another device to support these apps LOL. And what's with the love of downloading? Streaming makes so much more sense...


For quite some time downloading Amazon Instant Videos on the Tivo was the only way to get 1080 24p. Also the video is there in case something happens to your internet.

But I agree with you on yet another device. It seems that this is "too little, too late", especially if Amazon Prime runs slow on a Roamio. My Sony BD player runs all of it's apps (including Amazon Prime and Vudu) very quickly and is also a DLNA device which allows me to play Tivo recordings off my server that have been converted via KMTTG.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

It's all about the power and simplicity of staying on Input 1.

Yes, I have a universal remote control.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Fofer said:


> To my recollection it was, but it was so tragically bad if was unusable. Literally would reboot once or twice through every movie.


I wouldn't call it unusable on the S3 OLED as we use it all the time. Definitely not pretty and missing features people wanted like being able to manage the queue, but we haven't had any issues with it and the integration with TiVo Search works well for us. Never had a reboot either with our S3.

Scott


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Sure, now. But when it first came out, and for quite a long while after that, it was reboot city.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

dswallow said:


> There are some people without sufficiently fast internet connections who cannot stream successfully.


That's a very, very, TINY minority, given that the vast majority of Americans can get cable internet, and most of them that can't have restrictive transfer limits, like 3G/4G and satellite connections. So that leaves a tiny group in the middle who are not passed by a cable plant, have an OTA signal to use a TiVo with, and thus don't have satellite TV, or have TiVo with OTA in addition to satellite TV, and have DSL service that's too far from the CO or RDSLAM to get enough speed to stream, but close enough that they can get DSL, and also are willing to wait basically overnight for a download.

That's a TEENY, TINY, number of TiVo users.



trip1eX said:


> Yeah I don't use Vudu. Neither Prime. The bug fixes didn't do anything for me.
> 
> Personally speaking, post-update is just status quo.


I used to use VUDU, as their video quality used to be top notch. They've now Wal-Mart-ized it, and a lot of the encodes suck compared to iTunes and especially Amazon's new 1080p, and I've had some buffering issues that I never have with Amazon Prime.

Amazon is awesome, but I don't need a 5th device that can stream Amazon Instant or Amazon Prime. Plus Prime Video is free anyways with regular Prime, so why not?



moedaman said:


> For quite some time downloading Amazon Instant Videos on the Tivo was the only way to get 1080 24p. Also the video is there in case something happens to your internet.


Yeah, they've been doing streaming 1080p for a while now, and it looks really, really good. The current generation of devices have a few gigs of flash, and they can buffer a decent amount in case there is some weird internet slowdown.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Bigg said:


> That's a very, very, TINY minority, given that the vast majority of Americans can get cable internet, and most of them that can't have restrictive transfer limits, like 3G/4G and satellite connections. So that leaves a tiny group in the middle who are not passed by a cable plant, have an OTA signal to use a TiVo with, and thus don't have satellite TV, or have TiVo with OTA in addition to satellite TV, and have DSL service that's too far from the CO or RDSLAM to get enough speed to stream, but close enough that they can get DSL, and also are willing to wait basically overnight for a download.
> 
> That's a TEENY, TINY, number of TiVo users.


You asked why. I answered why some people are interested in it. There's still plenty of people with "broadband" connections that couldn't sustain required speeds for the higher resolution formats; and that will only increase if/when UHD/4K or higher content is more pervasive.

I'm pretty sure this is solely caused by perceived "copy protection" of not caching anything locally. Which frankly is one of the more stupid effects of the idiocy behind the various content protection schemes. It should be allowed for a device to buffer content locally when streaming; I'm sure they could easily have worked out a system that would continue protecting the cached content to prevent unauthorized copying that would've allowed even fully caching the video data so that users with slower internet connections could still benefit from the streaming capabilities. They probably could even have provided for a completely disconnected viewing option where the content becomes invalid after some period after it was cached. It probably would also simplify more advanced trick-play features like are offered on a typical TiVo -- as noted current streaming implementations aren't usually showing video as you FF/REW over content.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Jed1 said:


> Again read her first five words in her statement,
> 
> The time frame she quoted is irrelevant as she gave absolutely no certainty that it will happen.
> 
> ...


As you admit the language works and when the language works the customer is less likely to upgrade to the Roamio, not more likely.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Diana Collins said:


> If you are in the industry then you should understand that this is the ONLY honest response than can be given. At this time it is their intention to deliver the apps on Premieres in an update next year. However, things happen. No one with any sort of management responsibility in any organization is going to give a hard and fast promise. There are liability issues attached if they do. I am a computer software product manager and I never promise a feature will be in any given release because I can't. If I did, I would be lying. The best ANYONE can do regarding future deliverables is tell you what is on their roadmap, which is exactly what Margret did.


Unfortunately her response is not really honest as it is just simple double speak. She says something may or may not happen and then in the second half gives a time frame for it to happen. If you are not even certain that an event is going to happen in the first place then mentioning a time frame is completely irrelevant.

I have almost a lifetime of technical training, as even my father and grandfather was technically inclined, and I never heard that type of language being used. In my world it is either yes or no, do or don't. There is really no grey area in established math and science.

This type of language is something that started about a decade or so ago. This was the end result of the manufacturing base being exported to foreign countries. The American businesses let go a lot of talented technical people as they were no longer needed, and now really have no way of actually fixing technical issues. So they adopted the premise of either using legal BS or, if necessary, give monetary rebates to keep beleaguered customers happy.
And since this type of behavior has been used over and over again, it has now become normal accepted behavior to the consumers in this country.

I think in this case it came widely expected that both the Premiere and Roamio owners would receive the apps together. I was under that belief myself that I was getting them in the Winter Update.
I made plans to sign up for Amazon Prime as soon as I got the update so I can get the free two day shipping on the Blu ray lightning deals for the holidays. It is obvious that this is not going to happen.
If the data that was being provided here and other places was not true then Margret should have advised those people that this was not true and corrected the statement.
Now that it did not happen and the language that TiVo officials are using leaves some severe doubt in my mind that TiVo will support us Premiere owners going forward.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> Well, I certainly don't agree with this.
> 
> There is a middle ground between "I want all updates forever" and "you aren't entitled to any updates, ever."
> 
> You certainly expect to get updates on new hardware, and you expect those updates to continue until the next hardware version comes out. And even then you expect to get SOME of the updates.


There is no middle ground. When you buy a piece of hardware you aren't promised any future updates.

IF you disagree then please show us where Tivo says otherwise.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

shwru980r said:


> As you admit the language works and when the language works the customer is less likely to upgrade to the Roamio, not more likely.


This is the actual portion of a reply by me that you quoted:



> The time frame she quoted is irrelevant as she gave absolutely no certainty that it will happen.
> 
> I am a engineer/technical person and have been to seminars that train CSRs and upper management for the cable/sat industry. They are trained to use certain language which does not confirm or deny anything in order to keep the customer happy. This also deflects the possibility of any legal ramifications to the company.
> 
> Margaret is using such language and it is working on you. This is stopping you from complaining and you will now sit and wait until at least next June for something that may or may not happen. You will then get disgusted and you will either go away quietly and stay a TiVo customer or upgrade to the Roamio to get the feature if you want it badly enough.


This is the portion of that reply that you quoted:



> Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post
> 
> Again read her first five words in her statement,
> 
> ...


You conveniently left off the rest of the paragraph and then inserted your own meaning. I am not running a political campaign here. If you are going to quote somebody then quote them fully and not partially.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah I'm wondering about that too. The app is pretty slow on the Roamio so it could be unusable on the Premiere. Maybe the delay is due to them redoing the app in a format that is optimized for the TiVo platform so that it has snappier response even on the Premiere hardware.


Assuming that this is the issue and TiVo really wants to put the two apps on the Premiere, wouldn't it have been better to start with the Premiere and then just port it over to the Roamio. This would have been the most cost effective way and also would eliminate the animosity they created to the Premiere owners. It makes Premiere owners, who also paid big money, look like second class customers.

I think it was just speculation from non TiVo personnel that stated the Premiere line would get this and TiVo did nothing to quash the rumor when it started.
The answer I got from TiVo support is much different than what TiVo support has posted on their Twitter page. I was told that they have no ETA at all for the apps on the Premiere line.

Basically what ever the issue is I think that TiVo should just come clean and give the real reason why this was done this way. As a new customer, one year now, I am now pretty pissed and at this moment I have no intentions of buying anything from them ever again.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

MichaelAinNB said:


> The second something comparable comes along, and it will, I won't be able to dial up TiVo fast enough to cancel their service.


Ok, you let us know. 



Jed1 said:


> In my world it is either yes or no, do or don't. There is really no grey area in established math and science.



But this isn't math or science. This is business. She made a statement as firm as she could. "We plan to" and "We expect" are very common business phrases. She's telling us her confidence is high, probably because she's behind the plan to get it done. But is anything 100% in this game? Never.

Y'all really need to get over it. When it comes, it comes, And if it doesn't, it doesn't. I wouldn't bet the farm on it, or plan a wedding date around it.

Find something to be happy about, instead of whining whining whining. It makes life more enjoyable.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> Unfortunately her response is not really honest as it is just simple double speak...


No, you just don't want to accept that you can't have what you want *right now*!!!

I had a customer ask me yesterday when a new feature would be in the product I manage. I told him: "We currently expect that the feature will be available in a release towards the middle of next year." Sound familiar? It is exactly the truth. We plan on a release in mid year, and hope to have this feature in that release. Does that mean it WILL be? No, it means it might be. It means we will do our best.

Software development is not a science. There is always more than one way to do anything. Some solutions work better than others in one circumstance but not another. Selecting the the best approach is what separates a great programmer from a merely good one. But that makes it an art.

TiVo, through their representative, has stated that they plan to have these new apps ready for the Premiere platform next year. Might that not happen? Sure. The code may not run fast enough, no matter what they do. They might run out of memory. They might decide that getting a h.265 capable model out is more important. But as of today, barring unforeseen events, Vudu and Amazon Prime apps will appear on the Premiere in 2015.

If you expect a stronger commitment than that from ANY development organization, I think you will be waiting a long time before you get it.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Jed1 said:


> Unfortunately her response is not really honest as it is just simple double speak. She says something may or may not happen and then in the second half gives a time frame for it to happen. If you are not even certain that an event is going to happen in the first place then mentioning a time frame is completely irrelevant.
> 
> I have almost a lifetime of technical training, as even my father and grandfather was technically inclined, and I never heard that type of language being used. In my world it is either yes or no, do or don't. There is really no grey area in established math and science.
> 
> ...


Your technical training didn't seem to get as far as quantum mechanics or statistical analysis. Not to speak of Gödel's incompleteness theorems. There are plenty of grey areas in math and science. And you clearly never had anything to do with software development or you'd know why corporate types like TiVoMargret are careful not to count their chickens before they hatch. But as a person with common sense you should realize that TiVoMargret doesn't police the TiVo Community threads and is only responsible for the things she actually writes. It is childish to believe rumors and speculation as fact and then blame the messenger when those flights of fancy turn out to be unfounded.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Jed1 said:


> Assuming that this is the issue and TiVo really wants to put the two apps on the Premiere, wouldn't it have been better to start with the Premiere and then just port it over to the Roamio. This would have been the most cost effective way and also would eliminate the animosity they created to the Premiere owners. It makes Premiere owners, who also paid big money, look like second class customers.


As owners of previous generation hardware we *are *second class customers, but anyway... 

I think what's likely is that both the Premiere and Roamio were scheduled to get the streaming updates in this release and late in the game they realized that performance was marginal on Roamio and just wasn't cutting it on Premiere. They ran out of time to get the performance improvements needed and they made the decision to pull it from the Premieres and keep it in the Roamio. If they can get the performance improvements needed for it to be hosted on the Premiere perhaps they'll fold that code back into the Roamio as well.

Again, just conjecture.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

astrohip said:


> Ok, you let us know.


I never intended to get into a pissing contest with all you TiVo fanboys here. The bottom line is, I, along with a host of other Premier owners feel we were misled by TiVo, we are being treated unfairly, and we're unhappy customers. To date, I haven't seen anything from TiVo addressing that unhappiness by apologizing for the misunderstanding and that is not good customer service. I don't know what your employment history is but I hold an upper management position and there have been times when I have had to apologize to a customer, the one who pays my salary, by the way, for something I had absolutely no control over. It comes with the territory. TiVo has failed to do that. Lame statements via chat boards and Twitter using phrases like "We plan to" and "We expect to" and "Sometime in..." are exactly that- lame and meaningless. Over the past 30 years, every time I bought a lottery ticket, I "expected to" and I "planned to" win. To date, that expectation hasn't seen fruition.

Your cocky comment, "Ok, you let us know" is literally an attitude that kills companies so I have to assume you're not affiliated with TiVo and, therefore, will disregard your sophomoric response. But the more devices like Roku that provide efficient streaming capabilities for Prime, Netflix, HBOGO (which TiVo doesn't provide) and the like, and the more the need for just a basic Digital Video Recording device increase, I'd say TiVo's days are limited.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

MichaelAinNB said:


> The bottom line is, I, along with a host of other Premier owners feel we were misled by TiVo, we are being treated unfairly, and we're unhappy customers. To date, I haven't seen anything from TiVo addressing that unhappiness by apologizing for the misunderstanding and that is not good customer service.


As a current Premiere owner, I don't feel misled at all. Nothing in this last release was ever promised to me. I would guess it's not a "host" of owners, just a few. And why on earth would TiVo address this? There's nothing to address!

If they had promised you "X", and failed to deliver "X", I would expect an explanation. But they haven't failed to deliver anything. So what are they going to address? Plus, they even told you approx when you can expect something you never knew you were going to get.

The only problem is you are in the win column, but for some reason think you're in the loss column.



MichaelAinNB said:


> Over the past 30 years, every time I bought a lottery ticket, I "expected to" and I "planned to" win. To date, that expectation hasn't seen fruition.


Let me buy you a beer sometime and explain how lotto tickets work.



MichaelAinNB said:


> Your cocky comment, "Ok, you let us know" is literally an attitude that kills companies so I have to assume you're not affiliated with TiVo <snip>


You are absolutely correct. It was cocky, and would never be made by any sane representative of a normal company. Of which I'm not. It was made as a forum member amazed at your petulance.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

MichaelAinNB said:


> The bottom line is, I, along with a host of other Premier owners


A "host"? As in 2 or 3?



MichaelAinNB said:


> feel we were misled by TiVo,


Only in your own mind.



MichaelAinNB said:


> we are being treated unfairly,


Again, only in your own mind.



MichaelAinNB said:


> and we're unhappy customers.


Agreed. You definitely seem very unhappy.



MichaelAinNB said:


> To date, I haven't seen anything from TiVo addressing that unhappiness by apologizing for the misunderstanding and that is not good customer service.


You want an apology? Okay. I'm sorry that you expected something based entirely on internet rumor and speculation.



MichaelAinNB said:


> I don't know what your employment history is but I hold an upper management position


Good for you!



MichaelAinNB said:


> Lame statements via chat boards and Twitter using phrases like "We plan to" and "We expect to" and "Sometime in..." are exactly that- lame and meaningless. Over the past 30 years, every time I bought a lottery ticket, I "expected to" and I "planned to" win. To date, that expectation hasn't seen fruition.


If TiVo had made some kind of official statement that mislead people into expecting what you did, then I would agree with you. But since internet rumors and speculation on chat boards were the source of your misunderstanding, I think a response via chat boards addressing your concerns was perfectly reasonable and appropriate.



MichaelAinNB said:


> But the more devices like Roku that provide efficient streaming capabilities for Prime, Netflix, HBOGO (which TiVo doesn't provide) and the like, and the more the need for just a basic Digital Video Recording device increase, I'd say TiVo's days are limited.


Roku is a great streaming device, far better than a TiVo probably ever will be. I have one myself. But TiVo, at its core, is a DVR. The best DVR, by far, that exists. Having streaming apps built in is just an added bonus, which few (if any) other DVRs have. If you just want to get by with a mediocre DVR and a Roku, great. But I'd much rather have a great DVR and a Roku.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Roku is a great streaming device, far better than a TiVo probably ever will be. I have one myself. But TiVo, at its core, is a DVR. The best DVR, by far, that exists. Having streaming apps built in is just an added bonus, which few (if any) other DVRs have. If you just want to get by with a mediocre DVR and a Roku, great. But I'd much rather have a great DVR and a Roku.


TiVo is a great DVR; I've never disputed that. The target of my unhappiness is TiVo the company not TiVo the product. With specific regard to a DVR, TiVo makes a very good one but the company has a history of snubbing long time customers in an attempt to force us to upgrade to their newest product and I'm simply fed up with that practice. You and others here make it sound like I'm taking out hate ads in all the major newspapers bashing TiVo when all I've done is voice my displeasure with a TiVo business practice on a TiVo chat board. My subsequent 30 some odd posts were in response to people like yourself bashing me for making a decision you don't agree with.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

As a Premiere owner, I'm happy for the recent speed BOOST we got with the Flash->Haxe rewrite. And I'll feel grateful still when we (eventually) get the Amazon and VUDU apps. Many other companies would just drop support for the older hardware platform entirely.

I'm disappointed in TiVo for other reasons, but not this one.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

MichaelAinNB said:


> TiVo is a great DVR; I've never disputed that. The target of my unhappiness is TiVo the company not TiVo the product. With specific regard to a DVR, TiVo makes a very good one but the company has a history of snubbing long time customers in an attempt to force us to upgrade to their newest product and I'm simply fed up with that practice. You and others here make it sound like I'm taking out hate ads in all the major newspapers bashing TiVo when all I've done is voice my displeasure with a TiVo business practice on a TiVo chat board. My subsequent 30 some odd posts were in response to people like yourself bashing me for making a decision you don't agree with.


Nobody disagrees with your decision to get rid of your machines. We just think its silly to expect features on previous generation machines.

They are not a large company like Apple who has plenty of cash. Apple has done plenty of things to force upgrades like when they stopped including floppy drives, and DVD drives. They refused to support flash on their mobile devices.
They stopped support of OS9 emulation in OSX. They force their 3rd party developers to use new APIs all the time.

Microsoft on the other hand tried to support everything from day 1 and got dragged behind in their innovation as a result.

I have been a Tivo customer since the Series 1 but I could see the writing on the wall and knew when it was time to upgrade. I knew that lifetime did not mean new software features. I also knew that even with lifetime my unit may become obsolete such as when the analog to digital conversion happened.

I have to say that the Roamio/Mini arrangement is the best setup I have ever had.

I fully expect the competition and VOD delivery mechanisms may put the nail in Tivo eventually and that there is a possibility that one of my upgrade purchases will become a bad investment. Its not a big deal I move with the times.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

dswallow said:


> You asked why. I answered why some people are interested in it. There's still plenty of people with "broadband" connections that couldn't sustain required speeds for the higher resolution formats; and that will only increase if/when UHD/4K or higher content is more pervasive.


For TiVo specifically, the number of TiVos that are running off of OTA and have DSL that's too slow for HD streaming but doesn't have a cap is just going to be so tiny. I'm sure someone, somewhere, is in that situation, but they don't develop features for a teeny, tiny minority, especially a company that primarily develops cable DVRs, where cable internet will be available, and thus the speeds required to support HD/4K are available.

Also, of those people, most aren't going to want to set up a download hours before they can watch something- a big part of the draw of streaming is that you can stream nearly instantly without planning what to download or what Blu-ray to get from the Redbox.

There are very few connections between the current streaming requirements, which are typically around 7mbps (Netflix SuperHD) and 4K (15.9mbps), once you account for 15mbps cable connections that are getting rapidly upgraded, or have faster packages available already for an addition $10/mo or so. AT&T probably has by far the most on U-Verse, but those folks who are using U-Verse for internet and cable for TV could just get cable internet to stream 4K.



zalusky said:


> Microsoft on the other hand tried to support everything from day 1 and got dragged behind in their innovation as a result.


Quite true. They have had a lot of problems over the years with stuff that's backwards compatible for years or decades.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

MichaelAinNB said:


> TiVo is a great DVR; I've never disputed that. The target of my unhappiness is TiVo the company not TiVo the product. With specific regard to a DVR, TiVo makes a very good one but the company has a history of snubbing long time customers in an attempt to force us to upgrade to their newest product and I'm simply fed up with that practice. You and others here make it sound like I'm taking out hate ads in all the major newspapers bashing TiVo when all I've done is voice my displeasure with a TiVo business practice on a TiVo chat board. My subsequent 30 some odd posts were in response to people like yourself bashing me for making a decision you don't agree with.


But the Tivo business practice you have a displeasure with only exists in your own mind.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> But the Tivo business practice you have a displeasure with only exists in your own mind.


I don't agree with a lot of what he's saying, but he does have a valid point in regards to the Series 3's with TiVo's refusal to push the MPEG-4 update to support FIOS, and soon Comcast, subs. IIRC (although I might be wrong) it still wouldn't work with Cox's H.264 Spectrum channels, since it doesn't have 1 ghz tuners like the Premiere and Roamio.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> I don't agree with a lot of what he's saying, but he does have a valid point in regards to the Series 3's with TiVo's refusal to push the MPEG-4 update to support FIOS, and soon Comcast, subs. IIRC (although I might be wrong) it still wouldn't work with Cox's H.264 Spectrum channels, since it doesn't have 1 ghz tuners like the Premiere and Roamio.


So we agree then. I wasn't saying Tivo was Mother Theresa.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> So we agree then. I wasn't saying Tivo was Mother Theresa.


Sort of. TiVo is usually pretty good. The S3 thing is an exception to the rule. I don't really count software features as an issue, as long as the box still works. The issue is that the S3 boxes don't work on some cable providers now.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Diana Collins said:


> No, you just don't want to accept that you can't have what you want *right now*!!!
> 
> I had a customer ask me yesterday when a new feature would be in the product I manage. I told him: "We currently expect that the feature will be available in a release towards the middle of next year." Sound familiar? It is exactly the truth. We plan on a release in mid year, and hope to have this feature in that release. Does that mean it WILL be? No, it means it might be. It means we will do our best.
> 
> ...


I highlighted a portion of your post as I believe that you are wrong. My sister has a masters degree in Computer Science and Software Engineering. She also has a masters in Business and Accounting.

She has been has been doing main frame and coding since the 1970's. She was educated and trained using the IBM standard. This method was simply code a program and beta test it to various scenarios and then release it to the public. The sign of good programmers was there was no customer complaints.
As she and I have talked about for many years is the industry standard was broken by Microsoft as they preferred to write code quickly and beta test in the field. This way they can get new product into the hands of the public very fast. The problem is the software designers got lazy and wrote very sloppy code. This now has become the industry standard. 
She can obviously see that TiVo suffers from this because of all the freezes and reboots. These are caused by the machine running out of logic. Once there is no logic to follow it either gets caught in a loop or if instructed to do so it will automatically reboot.
Also the constant patching of the original code causes breaks to the code. The more it is patched the more potential for breaks. This is why there is a constant need for bug fixes.

As for the rest of your post, I have dealt with customers for years and I have always worked to the customers needs and wants and not my own. I always tried to meet and exceed the customers expectations no matter how big or complex the job or task was.
Also I never used double speak to any customer. All communications were clear and concise. Nobody had any doubt at any time as to what was happening. In this way nobody had to make any assumptions based on a lack of information.
In your example, what if the customer wanted that done by Friday as he/she could not wait any longer than that? Would you tell him no? It seems to me that you never did any work that was time critical.

It is apparent that your expectations are a lot lower than mine. The reasons you listed about why the apps are or are not going to happen, is based on pure speculation. It maybe as simple TiVo does not want to put the apps on the Premiere line so they can sell more Roamios. What would you think of TiVo then?
And if there is a legitimate reason why not say it? Why leave things to speculation? 
I actually do not know why a lot of TiVo customers are constantly making excuses for what TiVo does. You all are just customers like myself, and I am only demanding that they elevate their customer standards.
Don't you want TiVo to be better? Maybe they will get more customers and have a better financial health. Right?

It is apparent that the VP of Engineering was not amused that RCN customer TiVo boxes were spontaneously rebooting.
This is his October 8th 2014 reply on another forum:


> Yup you caught it, I wasn't happy.. There was a issue that got pushed out that caused some boxes to become unstable on monday night.. I was at the game working the issue with TiVo until resolution around 11PM. We are having meetings and discussions with them daily to ensure that what happened DOESN"T happen again.. Skins game didn't help things either


.
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r29569877-TiVo-RCN-TiVo-Fall-Update-Rolling-out-DC-is-complete
Notice that he capitalized the word DOESN'T.
The cable ops are not going to put up with TiVos nonsense and they also do not want their customers being used as beta testers.
I bet you TiVo did not give him any double speak and gave him a time line as to when things were going to happen.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

ej42137 said:


> Your technical training didn't seem to get as far as quantum mechanics or statistical analysis. Not to speak of Gödel's incompleteness theorems. There are plenty of grey areas in math and science. And you clearly never had anything to do with software development or you'd know why corporate types like TiVoMargret are careful not to count their chickens before they hatch. But as a person with common sense you should realize that TiVoMargret doesn't police the TiVo Community threads and is only responsible for the things she actually writes. It is childish to believe rumors and speculation as fact and then blame the messenger when those flights of fancy turn out to be unfounded.


This is what I stated in a sentence that you quoted:


> I have almost a lifetime of technical training, as even my father and grandfather was technically inclined, and I never heard that type of language being used. In my world it is either yes or no, do or don't. *There is really no grey area in established math and science.*


Notice what the bold print says. I do not have training in theoretical science as I am trained in *ESTABLISHED* math and sciences.

As I just told Diana, my sister has a master degree in the field of software and has been doing that type of work since the 1970s.

It is a quote directly from Margret that I have been referring to and not some speculation from forum members.
*At this time, I expect both VUDU and the new Amazon Instant Video app to be available on TiVo Premiere in the first half of 2015.*

Most likely the rumor got started because TiVo uses the public to beta test their software and of course you will get leaks. So in any case it is TiVos fault that this happened. If they do not want anybody to know what is happening then they should do all beta testing in house.
In this case the moment that any rumors had started that were not true it would be the obligation of TiVo to correct the rumors with facts and not leave them fester which in this case they did.
Then they try to walk back the rumors with questionable statements which just leads people to make more speculative rumors. Then on top of this, you have different answers coming form TiVo which leads to more speculation.
Wouldn't it be easy if TiVo just came out and give a straight forward reason as to why the apps did not get released to the Premiere line? .
They are not guarding top secret nuclear launch codes as they are just two apps. Remember we all are paying customers.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

pdhenry said:


> As owners of previous generation hardware we *are *second class customers, but anyway...
> 
> I think what's likely is that both the Premiere and Roamio were scheduled to get the streaming updates in this release and late in the game they realized that performance was marginal on Roamio and just wasn't cutting it on Premiere. They ran out of time to get the performance improvements needed and they made the decision to pull it from the Premieres and keep it in the Roamio. If they can get the performance improvements needed for it to be hosted on the Premiere perhaps they'll fold that code back into the Roamio as well.
> 
> Again, just conjecture.


What I do not understand is why all the clock and dagger routine? We are just talking about two apps and not top secret operations.
If there is issues with the apps then just say so. Their current routine is leading to speculation and this leads to anger to some of us Premiere owners who want these apps. This is what makes us feel like second class customers.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Jed1 said:


> I highlighted a portion of your post as I believe that you are wrong. My sister has a masters degree in Computer Science and Software Engineering. She also has a masters in Business and Accounting.
> 
> She has been has been doing main frame and coding since the 1970's. She was educated and trained using the IBM standard. This method was simply code a program and beta test it to various scenarios and then release it to the public. The sign of good programmers was there was no customer complaints.
> As she and I have talked about for many years is the industry standard was broken by Microsoft as they preferred to write code quickly and beta test in the field. This way they can get new product into the hands of the public very fast. The problem is the software designers got lazy and wrote very sloppy code. This now has become the industry standard.
> ...


Tivo isn't Mother Theresa.

But if they say they are going to deliver Prime in 2015 then they probably will .....no later than 2016. They have a history of delivering albeit not always on time.

And to keep this in context, Tivo Premieres came out 4 years ago when Prime Video didn't exist. Any extra features you get on your box years later is icing on the cake.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Jed1 said:


> What I do not understand is why all the clock and dagger routine? We are just talking about two apps and not top secret operations.
> If there is issues with the apps then just say so. Their current routine is leading to speculation and this leads to anger to some of us Premiere owners who want these apps. This is what makes us feel like second class customers.


well start looking at the glass as half full and you won't be so angry.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

trip1eX said:


> Tivo isn't Mother Theresa.
> 
> But if they say they are going to deliver Prime in 2015 then they probably will .....no later than 2016. They have a history of delivering albeit not always on time.
> 
> And to keep this in context, Tivo Premieres came out 4 years ago when Prime Video didn't exist. Any extra features you get on your box years later is icing on the cake.


The problem I have is I did not buy my Premieres 4 years ago, I got them 1 year 2 months ago. I paid over $1300 for the two of them. 
If I had bought them 4 years ago I wouldn't even been having this conversation as I would have gotten my money out of them. I most likely would have upgraded to the Raomio and would have both apps now.
TiVo sold a lot of series 4 units in the past year so there is a lot of new series 4 owners they will have to deal with. There is also some retailers still sitting on new series 4 stock that has yet to be sold.



trip1eX said:


> well start looking at the glass as half full and you won't be so angry.


I was just at a meeting in my small town where the topic is how to stop the decline of the population. Of course a person who has a family business in town used that statement in a presentation of hers in which she had high hopes for the future of the town. 
I then made the statement that the population was 9300 at its peak which means the half full/empty point would be 4650. The current population is now 3600 which the half full/empty point is 1800. Since I would consider the glass full at 9300 then we are now below the half empty point by a 1050.
From that point on the optimism of the room disappeared as the reality of the situation settled in.
I am not an optimistic/pessimistic person. I just deal with the facts at hand and as you noted TiVo doesn't really have a good track record on delivering on things. 
in the case of TiVo if you are a customer "A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush". It would be nicer if the apps were on my TiVo than expecting them on my TiVo.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> ...It is apparent that your expectations are a lot lower than mine. The reasons you listed about why the apps are or are not going to happen, is based on pure speculation. It maybe as simple TiVo does not want to put the apps on the Premiere line so they can sell more Roamios. What would you think of TiVo then?
> And if there is a legitimate reason why not say it? Why leave things to speculation?
> I actually do not know why a lot of TiVo customers are constantly making excuses for what TiVo does. You all are just customers like myself, and I am only demanding that they elevate their customer standards...


Yes, we are speculating about why the apps were not enabled on Premieres...just like we all speculated about their appearance on ANY TiVo up until last week. The key issue that has been pointed out to you, but which you continue to ignore, is that no one from TiVo EVER promised these two apps to anyone. The first official recognition of thieir existence came when the FAQ pages were updated. Even the one and only hint from an official was a reference to Roamios only.

My background is very similar to your sister's. I worked for a mainframe software company in the late 70's and early 80's. I actually agree with your sister's assessment of development practices today (although I would hardly hold IBM up as a model - while their approach did promote quality, it stifled innovation, which is why we are not sitting in front of terminals attached to a central processing unit as we type these messages). However, there is no going back. Attempting to cure software quality problems by returning to the "IBM model" is like saying "let's solve air pollution by going back to horse drawn carriages." The fact of the matter is that the trend is towards SCRUM and other Agile Development methodologies to further accelerate the delivery of new features. The market cares more about features than quality. Indeed, your complaints about TiVo are evidence of exactly that.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Bigg said:


> For TiVo specifically, the number of TiVos that are running off of OTA and have DSL that's too slow for HD streaming but doesn't have a cap is just going to be so tiny. I'm sure someone, somewhere, is in that situation, but they don't develop features for a teeny, tiny minority, especially a company that primarily develops cable DVRs, where cable internet will be available, and thus the speeds required to support HD/4K are available.
> 
> Also, of those people, most aren't going to want to set up a download hours before they can watch something- a big part of the draw of streaming is that you can stream nearly instantly without planning what to download or what Blu-ray to get from the Redbox.
> 
> There are very few connections between the current streaming requirements, which are typically around 7mbps (Netflix SuperHD) and 4K (15.9mbps), once you account for 15mbps cable connections that are getting rapidly upgraded, or have faster packages available already for an addition $10/mo or so. AT&T probably has by far the most on U-Verse, but those folks who are using U-Verse for internet and cable for TV could just get cable internet to stream 4K...


I think you underestimate the number of slow internet links in the country. The *AVERAGE* internet connection in the US just reached 10Mbps this year. Given the extremely high bandwidth offered by fiber and some cable systems, you need a LOT of very slow connections to drop the average to 10Mbps. In fact, according to the latest Akamai report, 66% of US users have an Internet connection of 10Mbps or less.

See http://www.akamai.com/dl/akamai/akamai-soti-q413.pdf?WT.mc_id=soti_Q413 for all the details.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Jed1 said:


> What I do not understand is why all the clock and dagger routine? We are just talking about two apps and not top secret operations.
> If there is issues with the apps then just say so. Their current routine is leading to speculation and this leads to anger to some of us Premiere owners who want these apps. This is what makes us feel like second class customers.


[I thought I had dropped out of this scrum, but you keep pulling me back in...]

Cloak and dagger? You have an amazing ability to take silence and fill it with paranoia. Other than this thread, there is likely no discussion of this "problem". The average Premiere user doesn't know they don't have something they never expected (or were ever promised), and the average Roamio user hasn't even received the update yet. Most companies don't address rumor as it only lends credence to it. Especially when the only place it's to be found is... here!

So what 99.999% of the world sees as, well, nothingness, you see as some great conspiracy with corporate stonewalling and fuming customers lining up with pitchforks.

The only tempest is in your mind.

[ok, promise to myself, unsubscribe and leave this madness behind]


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Most companies don't address rumor as it only lends credence to it.


And when companies do willingly admit to specific problems and say they're working on them, they'll often *still* get blow back by people. "Why are you fixing THAT problem for those users? You should be fixing THIS other problem for ME?".

That's why it's standard PR for so many companies to keep quiet about what problems anymore.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

I think maybe the logic of "if TiVo beta tests a feature, TiVo must release that feature, or they are intentionally deceiving their users" is maybe the funniest thing to come out of this thread.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Jed1 said:


> The problem I have is I did not buy my Premieres 4 years ago, I got them 1 year 2 months ago. I paid over $1300 for the two of them.
> If I had bought them 4 years ago I wouldn't even been having this conversation as I would have gotten my money out of them. I most likely would have upgraded to the Raomio and would have both apps now.
> TiVo sold a lot of series 4 units in the past year so there is a lot of new series 4 owners they will have to deal with. There is also some retailers still sitting on new series 4 stock that has yet to be sold.


Ok that's what your really angry about. Buying just before an upgrade cycle. Caveat Emptor.

#1 rule in electronics is know your upgrade cycles. Ok not sure it's #1 but it's definitely up there.



Jed1 said:


> T
> I was just at a meeting in my small town where the topic is how to stop the decline of the population. Of course a person who has a family business in town used that statement in a presentation of hers in which she had high hopes for the future of the town.
> I then made the statement that the population was 9300 at its peak which means the half full/empty point would be 4650. The current population is now 3600 which the half full/empty point is 1800. Since I would consider the glass full at 9300 then we are now below the half empty point by a 1050.
> From that point on the optimism of the room disappeared as the reality of the situation settled in.
> ...


That's some f'd up logic and rationalization. IT basically gives you carte blanche to continue to look at everything as half empty. And there's a difference between half full and pollyannaish. And seeing these things as half-full doesn't mean ignoring facts. It just means making the best of things.

You want facts at hand? I'll give you facts at hand.

Fact is you bought your Tivo 15 months ago with no Amazon Prime streaming. It wasn't on the back of the box. It wasn't promised. IT wasn't expected.

The fact is your Premiere has received a handful of updates since you bought it. Adding new features and improving the snappiness of your machine even.

And, btw, I think you're misapplying the Bird in the hand moral. 

The bird in the hand moral was you could have bought a Tivo 15 months ago aka had a bird in the hand or waited for the 2 in the bush aka the next new Tivo.  (although in the case of electronics this moral has a much shakier record.)

Anyway now you've had the bird in the hand for 15 months and it only has gotten more plump and tasty since you snared it. That's a fact.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

That we've learned that VUDU and Amazon Prime are *not* being precluded from the Premiere line after all, and are, in fact, set to arrive in the first half of 2015, pretty much makes this whole sidetrack moot. Why are there any complaints? There should be celebration.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> I think you underestimate the number of slow internet links in the country. The *AVERAGE* internet connection in the US just reached 10Mbps this year. Given the extremely high bandwidth offered by fiber and some cable systems, you need a LOT of very slow connections to drop the average to 10Mbps. In fact, according to the latest Akamai report, 66% of US users have an Internet connection of 10Mbps or less.
> 
> See http://www.akamai.com/dl/akamai/akamai-soti-q413.pdf?WT.mc_id=soti_Q413 for all the details.


I'm skeptical of that data. I think there's more to it because...

66% of users having less than a 10 mbps internet connection is not

the same as saying 66% of users only have access to 10 mbps or less internet connections.

I'm pretty sure cable broadband covers far more than 33% of users and that the speeds of a $40-$50 cable broadband package is on average at least 30-40 mbps.

Then how are they measuring this speed? I'm not sure yet. But considering streaming video is a big bandwidth hog and yet most of it doesn't need more than 10 mbps I would think there might be a correlation there between that and the average reported internet speed.

I do see they have 2 different measurements. One measures average speed and one measures average peak speed. The average peak speed is 43mbps in the US which, according to the Akamai report is a measure of internet capacity.

To me this seems to mean that, on average, we have connections capable of 43 mbps but are really only using 10 mbps of that (on average.)


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> I'm pretty sure cable broadband covers far more than 33% of users and that the speeds of a $40-$50 cable broadband package is on average at least 30-40 mbps.


Time Warner charges me $58/month for 15Mbps/1Mbps.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Time Warner charges me $58/month for 15Mbps/1Mbps.


??? Really in Raleigh? I find that hard to believe. You must be in an exception then!??!


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> ??? Really in Raleigh? I find that hard to believe. You must be in an exception then.
> 
> Wouldn't you say that at least 90% TW subscribers in Raleigh can get much faster internet than that for less money?


No, $57.99 is the standard price and 15/1 is the standard internet speed. If you are a new customer, they will give you a better price for 12 months. If/when their "Maxx" service comes to Raleigh (supposedly sometime next year) the standard speed is supposed to go up to 50/5.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> No, that's the standard price and the standard internet speed. If you are a new customer, they will give you a better price for 12 months. Once their Maxx service comes to Raleigh, supposedly sometime next year, the standard speed is supposed to go up to 50/5.


IF it makes you feel better I live in North Dakota, one of the least populated states, and get 60/6 for $46 regular price.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> IF it makes you feel better I live in North Dakota, one of the least populated states, and get 60/6 for $46 regular price.


Yeah, that didn't make me feel any better. Made me feel worse actually. The only hope for TWC to provide decent speeds at a reasonable price is if Google Fiber decides to expand into the Raleigh market. I have my fingers crossed, but it's a longshot. The only downside to Google Fiber coming to town would be that I could no longer use TiVo.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yeah, that didn't make me feel any better. Made me feel worse actually. The only hope for TWC to provide decent speeds at a reasonable price is if Google Fiber decides to expand into the Raleigh market. I have my fingers crossed, but it's a longshot.


Well I had 15 mbps before. It was in Denver 6 years ago ...back when I had DSL.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> Well I had 15 mbps before. It was in Denver 6 years ago ...back when I had DSL.


Well, like I said the "Maxx" upgrades should hit sometime in the next 6 months or so. I noticed just last week that TWC finally started bonding upstream channels on my cable modem, so I know they are getting ready for the speed boost.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

tarheelblue32 said:


> If/when their "Maxx" service comes to Raleigh (supposedly sometime next year) the standard speed is supposed to go up to 50/5.


TWC where I live is doing the Maxx upgrade soon, my 100/5 speed is being upgraded to 300/20 at the same price. I've already prepared for that by installing a compatible modem. Although, I may instead choose to lower my bill instead... 200/20 or even 100/10 might be "good enough" and still an upgrade from what I had before.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

DOCSIS 2.0 maxes out at 40 down/30 up (increasing max upstream from 10 to 30Mbps was the major difference between DOCSIS 1.1 and 2.0). DOCSIS 3.0 supports bonding multiple QAMs together to get multiples of the 2.0 speeds, and 3.1 adds support to get up to 10Gbps down and 1Gbps up, but at the cost of an entirely new transmission scheme (3.1 was just ratified, so no one is using it yet).

MANY cable plants are still on DOCSIS 1.x and 2.0, severely limiting how much capacity they can get away with selling to customers. Until a lot more systems are on DOCSIS 3.0 (and have their customers' cable modems upgraded to DOCSIS 3.0 models) 10 to 15 Mbps download maximums are going to remain the norm.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well, like I said the "Maxx" upgrades should hit sometime in the next 6 months or so. I noticed just last week that TWC finally started bonding upstream channels on my cable modem, so I know they are getting ready for the speed boost.


You should call them now and ask for a better deal. I am on a permanent discount for Extreme at 30/5 for $54.99/month.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

FWIW: I've been using the new Amazon App a lot on my Mini (before it died, replacement arrives on Thursday) and my Roamio OTA, and I can say it is much faster than the very similar apps on my Panasonic BD player and my Samsung 2012-era Smart TV. It is on par, performance wise, with the app on my Sony BD player which is what I preferred using before the app for Tivo came out. I see no reason to complain about it at all.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

ncted said:


> FWIW: I've been using the new Amazon App a lot on my Mini (before it died, replacement arrives on Thursday) and my Roamio OTA, and I can say it is much faster than the very similar apps on my Panasonic BD player and my Samsung 2012-era Smart TV. It is on par, performance wise, with the app on my Sony BD player which is what I preferred using before the app for Tivo came out. I see no reason to complain about it at all.


I'd agree with you. I've used the new Amazon app for a few days and the only "lag" appears to be with rapid text entry with an auxiliary qwerty keypad (Slide Remote or mobile app). General navigation via arrows and keys is more than acceptable, even quick, IMHO.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ncted said:


> FWIW: I've been using the new Amazon App a lot on my Mini (before it died, replacement arrives on Thursday) and my Roamio OTA, and I can say it is much faster than the very similar apps on my Panasonic BD player and my Samsung 2012-era Smart TV. It is on par, performance wise, with the app on my Sony BD player which is what I preferred using before the app for Tivo came out. I see no reason to complain about it at all.


On my Sony S6200 BD players they are faster with the Amazon app than my Roamios or Minis. I haven't checked with my Sony S5200 BD players because those use an older version of the Amazon app which was very slow. But the S6200's also use a dual core processor. While the lower x200 models use a single core(as well as the S5200)

EDIT: My old Sony players are S5100 models.. not S5200.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

The apps on my Roamio work fine but I think the Roku does a better job with both. 

I'm glad to see that TiVo is attempting to keep up and fulfilling commitments. :up:


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> I think you underestimate the number of slow internet links in the country. The *AVERAGE* internet connection in the US just reached 10Mbps this year. Given the extremely high bandwidth offered by fiber and some cable systems, you need a LOT of very slow connections to drop the average to 10Mbps. In fact, according to the latest Akamai report, 66% of US users have an Internet connection of 10Mbps or less.
> 
> See http://www.akamai.com/dl/akamai/akamai-soti-q413.pdf?WT.mc_id=soti_Q413 for all the details.


And most of those are people who are technologically inept and have crappy old DSL connections even though they are passed by an HFC plant capable of 50 or 100mbps.

Tying back to TiVo, most TiVos are used with cable, so by definition, if you use a TiVo with cable, you have internet available that's more than fast enough for 1080p streaming, and have no need for downloading. Supposing that you're an OTA user with a TiVo, most of those users are going to have cable available, or something else capable of streaming 1080p at least. So only a tiny proportion of TiVo users have OTA but only have DSL available that's not capable of streaming HD. If they have satellite or 4G, then downloading isn't going to fix the bandwidth consumption issue, and either satellite or 4G has enough speed to stream HD anyways.

Sure, there might be some cable TV subscribers with slow DSL who have TiVos, but that's self selecting. If they cared about doing much of anything on the internet, including streaming/downloading video, they would have already switched to cable internet.

Also, if these updates roll out to GCI, Suddenlink, and RCN users, they all have very fast connections available.

So basically, TiVo has absolutely no reason to support a teeny, tiny number of users.



trip1eX said:


> I'm skeptical of that data. I think there's more to it because...
> 
> 66% of users having less than a 10 mbps internet connection is not
> 
> the same as saying 66% of users only have access to 10 mbps or less internet connections.


This is exactly it. Incredibly, there are people in CT who have 3mbps DSL. The entire state has access to cable, and I think the slowest ISP is at 50mbps, even other one is at 60-100mbps, with two <100mbps providers in the southwestern (FIOS) and southeastern corners of the state (cable overbuilder).



> I'm pretty sure cable broadband covers far more than 33% of users and that the speeds of a $40-$50 cable broadband package is on average at least 30-40 mbps.


There's no question about that. Comcast alone passes about 40% of US households, and AFAIK, their entire system is capable of 105 or 150mbps. When you add together the rest of the large providers, I think you get well over 80% of US households passed, and virtually all of them have speeds capable of streaming 1080p, even those old creaky 15mbps TWC systems that haven't been MAXXed yet. And if those old systems offer a 20mbps package, that's enough for a single 4K stream.



> Then how are they measuring this speed? I'm not sure yet. ...


Yeah, there's a lot of questions surrounding this data.



Diana Collins said:


> MANY cable plants are still on DOCSIS 1.x and 2.0, severely limiting how much capacity they can get away with selling to customers. Until a lot more systems are on DOCSIS 3.0 (and have their customers' cable modems upgraded to DOCSIS 3.0 models) 10 to 15 Mbps download maximums are going to remain the norm.


Where? Comcast has been running D3 for years. They are now upgrading their standard tier from 25mbps to 50mbps, and recommending D3 modem upgrades for those users so that they can get beyond 25mbps. Charter and Cox have been running D3 for a while. Even smaller cable providers like Metrocast have had D3 for a while. CableVision has had it for a while. That leaves TWC. Are they really still running D2 on non MAXX systems? Even if they are, those are rapidly disappearing. BHN has been running D3 for a while.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

My GF lives in Maryland. She has 1.2Mb/s DSL. Even though she could get FiOS or Comcast at her house. Unfortunately she just won't get anything faster. Although she does have two Series 3 TiVos that gave her.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> My GF lives in Maryland. She has 1.2Mb/s DSL. Even though she could get FiOS or Comcast at her house. Unfortunately she just won't get anything faster. Although she does have two Series 3 TiVos that gave her.


Jesus. That's awful. I hope it isn't too serious. She doesn't sound like marriage material to me. Just kidding.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Jesus. That's awful. I hope it isn't too serious. She doesn't sound like marriage material to me. Just kidding.


Ha! +1

Seriously, I am surprised at just how usable DSL still is. My parents have 6/1 service from Frontier and it never feels slow.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ncted said:


> Ha! +1
> 
> Seriously, I am surprised at just how usable DSL still is. My parents have 6/1 service from Frontier and it never feels slow.


I also have Frontier DSL at 6 Mbps which is fine for normal web surfing and single user (1 stream) streaming. The issue I have is that my 6 Mbps starts dropping in the afternoon and by evening is down to 1Mbps or less which is useless for streaming and even makes web surfing slow. The issue is a capacity problem upstream from my switching station. If you lived someplace where there was enough capacity to maintain 6 Mbps it would suite many small households (when it is at 6 Mbps I can maintain HDX streaming from Vudu with 1 or 2 bars if nothing else is using bandwidth). The reality is if Frontier was willing to invest in their infrastructure they could get allot more out of DSL than they are now and actually be competitive (I have no choice as I live in a cable free area). It would be interesting to know what their (Frontier) long term plans are right now it looks like it is to milk the existing infrastructure as long as they can and then go out of business.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Jed1 said:


> This is the actual portion of a reply by me that you quoted:
> 
> This is the portion of that reply that you quoted:
> 
> You conveniently left off the rest of the paragraph and then inserted your own meaning. I am not running a political campaign here. If you are going to quote somebody then quote them fully and not partially.


The rest of the quote was irrelevant. Stringing the customer along will make the customer less likely to upgrade to the Roamio, not more likely as you assert.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> I also have Frontier DSL at 6 Mbps which is fine for normal web surfing and single user (1 stream) streaming. The issue I have is that my 6 Mbps starts dropping in the afternoon and by evening is down to 1Mbps or less which is useless for streaming and even makes web surfing slow. The issue is a capacity problem upstream from my switching station. If you lived someplace where there was enough capacity to maintain 6 Mbps it would suite many small households (when it is at 6 Mbps I can maintain HDX streaming from Vudu with 1 or 2 bars if nothing else is using bandwidth). The reality is if Frontier was willing to invest in their infrastructure they could get allot more out of DSL than they are now and actually be competitive (I have no choice as I live in a cable free area). It would be interesting to know what their (Frontier) long term plans are right now it looks like it is to milk the existing infrastructure as long as they can and then go out of business.


Right now they are still expanding, buying up other telco's territories. Where I live and in Oregon, they just rolled out 1Gbps service in limited areas. I can get up to 24/2 channel bonded VDSL from them. Depending on what happens with TWC, I would consider switching to them. 300/20 is nice, but really unnecessary any time soon.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ncted said:


> Right now they are still expanding, buying up other telco's territories. Where I live and in Oregon, they just rolled out 1Gbps service in limited areas. I can get up to 24/2 channel bonded VDSL from them. Depending on what happens with TWC, I would consider switching to them. 300/20 is nice, but really unnecessary any time soon.


Good to hear that Frontier is making improvements somewhere. I really don't understand why they are so lax here, they advertise allot but their Internet service sucks and they are not improving anything. They own the whole Rochester NY MSA (about 1.2 million people formerly Rochester Telephone) and really don't have anything to offer people who have cable available to them (TWC). The telephone service is fine but more and more people are dropping home phones. I have the setup I have now because 6-7 years back I got the opportunity to work from home some of the time and needed reliable nationwide calling, a fax, & reasonable fast Internet access which I got/get during the day.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> My GF lives in Maryland. She has 1.2Mb/s DSL. Even though she could get FiOS or Comcast at her house. Unfortunately she just won't get anything faster. Although she does have two Series 3 TiVos that gave her.


Jesus, that's awful. Those are the sorts of folks who are dragging the averages down, especially when she could have 80/90 FIOS.



ncted said:


> Seriously, I am surprised at just how usable DSL still is. My parents have 6/1 service from Frontier and it never feels slow.


Last time I was on a connection that slow with a computer, I was surprised how bad a 6/1 Comcast (economy) package was. My friend was streaming and I was online, and we couldn't manage both at one time without everything melting down. He agreed it was horrible, but he was moving in like a month, so he didn't bother fixing it.



ncted said:


> Right now they are still expanding, buying up other telco's territories. Where I live and in Oregon, they just rolled out 1Gbps service in limited areas. I can get up to 24/2 channel bonded VDSL from them. Depending on what happens with TWC, I would consider switching to them. 300/20 is nice, but really unnecessary any time soon.


I hope they roll out more U-Verse here in CT, if only to light more of a fire under the butts of the cable companies. We're just under 50% U-Verse coverage, so if they could crank that up, it would be great, even if it's crappy U-Verse. There are a ton of locations I know of with crossboxes or RT/RDSLAMs that are a drop-in for a VRAD, and several others where a VRAD would make perfect sense to serve several hundred households really easily.

What is amazing is that here in CT, we still have DSLAMs that get overloaded. It's amazing that the users who do anything more than email and read the news haven't self-selected off to cable (CT is 100% cable franchised).


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Diana Collins said:


> Yes, we are speculating about why the apps were not enabled on Premieres...just like we all speculated about their appearance on ANY TiVo up until last week. The key issue that has been pointed out to you, but which you continue to ignore, is that no one from TiVo EVER promised these two apps to anyone. The first official recognition of thieir existence came when the FAQ pages were updated. Even the one and only hint from an official was a reference to Roamios only.
> 
> My background is very similar to your sister's. I worked for a mainframe software company in the late 70's and early 80's. I actually agree with your sister's assessment of development practices today (although I would hardly hold IBM up as a model - while their approach did promote quality, it stifled innovation, which is why we are not sitting in front of terminals attached to a central processing unit as we type these messages). However, there is no going back. Attempting to cure software quality problems by returning to the "IBM model" is like saying "let's solve air pollution by going back to horse drawn carriages." The fact of the matter is that the trend is towards SCRUM and other Agile Development methodologies to further accelerate the delivery of new features. The market cares more about features than quality. Indeed, your complaints about TiVo are evidence of exactly that.


Yes my sister agrees with you. She mentions IBM strictly for their quality control standards. She was fortunate to work with some really good managers early in her career. They strictly adhered to protocol. 
She did get some younger ones later in her career who really did not know what they were doing, which made programming work really miserable. She spent a lot of time cleaning up mistakes, especially by programmers from India. 
She finished her career with her original boss as he was brought back to finish a really critical job that contractors could never get right.

She did tell me that she doesn't understand why TiVo never finished their menu system especially if they rewrote the program with the change in machine language. This would have been the perfect time to do this.
She also mentioned if the two platforms do use the same programming, it would be a mistake to leave out features on one platform, as it may create different bugs on each platform. She also would program all the features to the series 4 first as this has the weaker hardware. It would be cheaper and easier in the long run.
She does share my suspicions about the apps being left out of the Premiere line. Management never listens to the engineering/technical people. Hurry up and get it done so we can then spend twice the time and three times the money to do it all over again.
She really avoids these devices at home as she is sick of being around this for 37 years. Especially when they constantly need patching because of simple programming mistakes.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Unfortunately for IBM, their rigor resulted in almost going out of business in the 90s. The sad reality is iterative software development is the rule of the road today if you want to compete. Put out what you can get done in a short amount of time and add features and fixes next time around. Waterfall is dead. Long live agile!

As an IBM x86 server customer from 1997-2011, I can confirm that quality suffered when they moved away from their traditional methods and adopted what the rest of the industry was doing. Perhaps Lenovo will be better at it than IBM was. They certainly have been with the PC division.

I assume from looking at job descriptions at Tivo that they are an agile development shop, so I expect each release to be an iteration, not a big, new product, but I also expect frequent releases, which seems to match reality.

The other thing I see with agile shops is that older products tend to get abandoned sooner, or at least get less attention once the new, hot thing is out.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Well, programming to optimize the Premiere makes little sense as it needs to be cut off at some point and does not increase revenue for Tivo. Your sister is probably taking about how to optimize code for their own system and use, and not a retail appliance. 

I'm not sure why Tivo is actually making these apps available for the Premiere boxes- perhaps they feel guilty by the early problems or something. But, financially, it is really close to time to cut enhancements for that box. Remember the gripes about Pandora and Spotify for Premiers vs. S3s?

Case in point: I have premieres, and the increase in speed from the move to HAXE has caused me to delay any Roamio purchases. In fact, I just got a stand-alone stream for $25, so I have even less need to upgrade.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jrtroo said:


> Well, programming to optimize the Premiere makes little sense as it needs to be cut off at some point and does not increase revenue for Tivo.


The Premiere is different because of the cable companies that are using it. They have clout and demand the product be supported throughout their normal replacement cycle which is fairly long. Plus TiVo is maintaining the same software version on the Premiere (again likely because of the cable companies) so major coding isn't the issue - just hardware restrictions of the Premiere.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Good point, I was looking retail and not at the partnerships with cablecos. I guess I'll take my updates if I have to!


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

jrtroo said:


> In fact, I just got a stand-alone stream for $25, so I have even less need to upgrade.


From where? That's a great deal.

Now if only it would work with my rooted Android tablet...


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> The Premiere is different because of the cable companies that are using it. They have clout and demand the product be supported throughout their normal replacement cycle which is fairly long. Plus TiVo is maintaining the same software version on the Premiere (again likely because of the cable companies) so major coding isn't the issue - just hardware restrictions of the Premiere.


Exactly. We can thank RCN and Suddenlink for the update that sped up the Premieres.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

jrtroo said:


> Well, programming to optimize the Premiere makes little sense as it needs to be cut off at some point and does not increase revenue for Tivo. Your sister is probably taking about how to optimize code for their own system and use, and not a retail appliance.
> 
> I'm not sure why Tivo is actually making these apps available for the Premiere boxes- perhaps they feel guilty by the early problems or something. But, financially, it is really close to time to cut enhancements for that box. Remember the gripes about Pandora and Spotify for Premiers vs. S3s?
> 
> Case in point: I have premieres, and the increase in speed from the move to HAXE has caused me to delay any Roamio purchases. In fact, I just got a stand-alone stream for $25, so I have even less need to upgrade.


The problem is they really can not cut and run on the series 4 units because of the large install base the cable operators have.
I mention the reasons why in a previous post I made in this thread but it seems to get over looked as people keep focusing on other issues.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10296094#post10296094

TiVo is not going to be able to abandon a platform like they used to anymore as they bit the poison fruit of selling to the cable TV industry. They now have to go down the same road as Arris (Motorola) and Cisco (Scientific Atlantic) does. They must be willing to support hardware for many years.

I estimate that they will have to support series 4 units well passed the end of this decade as there is millions of these units either installed or waiting to be installed in cable customers homes.

TiVo figured if they use the same software logic on both platforms they will still be able to troubleshoot the series 4 units using the series 5 units. TiVo figures that customer owned series 4 will dwindle away a lot sooner than their cable TV operator counterparts. 
Also if the cable ops want to offer one of these two new apps on their system then they better have them functional in the consumer line ahead of time. I do believe RCN has the Netflix app available on their system.

RCN is now rolling out the Fall update which is actually the Summer update for us. RCN will probably roll out the current updates we have sometime next year.

It is now a whole new ball game for TiVo and they will have to change their ways if they are going to survive going forward.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Jed1 said:


> The problem is they really can not cut and run on the series 4 units because of the large install base the cable operators have.
> I mention the reasons why in a previous post I made in this thread but it seems to get over looked as people keep focusing on other issues.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10296094#post10296094
> 
> ...


Wait. Let me check. ARe you the same person who berated Tivo for 30 posts about Amazon Prime not being on your PRemiere the same time as the Roamio?


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

trip1eX said:


> Wait. Let me check. ARe you the same person who berated Tivo for 30 posts about Amazon Prime not being on your PRemiere the same time as the Roamio?


Yes, but the anger I have is the language that is used to promise the apps to Premiere owners at some other time.
Margret says one thing, TiVo support states another thing, and then after both of those statements I get a really gloomy reply from TiVo support that there is no ETA at all for the apps.
If a valid reason exists that the apps were not added to the Premiere line, then state the reason and move on. If there is issues with Vudu or Amazon not willing to add them to this line then say so.
If no valid reason exists....Well then TiVo can add the apps now but chose not to.
There was little doubt that these apps were going to be added to the Premiere line with the winter update. Nothing was said by TiVo that the rumor was untrue. Now that the apps did not appear, some individuals are now convincing themselves that they are going to happen in 2015.
But the language states something different. So now if the apps do not appear in 2015, then what do you think those owners attitude towards TiVo will be then?

Then there is people who are stating that I should not expect TiVo to support the Premiere line since it is 4 years old. Well this is not possible since there is a large number of series 4 units in use by cable operators, and those cable operators will be using them units for a long time.

Now we know that TiVo can not drop support for the Premieres. No valid reason was given as to why the apps were not added. Then a time table was given for the apps but the language used is suspect. And if the apps do not appear then what happens to the title of this thread? Do we just add the word NOT to the end of the title? Why keep adding insult to injury?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

No valid reason? Just the fact that the Premiere hardware is much, much slower should be reason enough. There is no way I would want to try to use the Amazon app on my Premiere the way it currently is. It's already slow on the Roamio. It would be unbearable to use on my Premiere.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> No valid reason? Just the fact that the Premiere hardware is much, much slower should be reason enough. There is no way I would want to try to use the Amazon app on my Premiere the way it currently is. It's already slow on the Roamio. It would be unbearable to use on my Premiere.


I don't doubt your slow Amazon app performance on your Roamio and I believe a few others have also made the same comment. On my Roamio Pro, the new Amazon app performance seems quite reasonable. I have one Mini connected to my Pro via Moca. My HDD is ~22% full. My ISP (not Comcast HSI) provides ~96Mbps down/up measured using speedtest.net. Just wondering what may be the differentiator? BTW, I am not the most patient person so if the Amazon app was slow for me, I wouldn't hesitate to say so.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

aaronwt said:


> No valid reason? Just the fact that the Premiere hardware is much, much slower should be reason enough. There is no way I would want to try to use the Amazon app on my Premiere the way it currently is. It's already slow on the Roamio. It would be unbearable to use on my Premiere.


But you really do not know if the app on the Premiere would be slower. It can be they way the TiVo is interfacing with Amazon and it would behave the same way on the Premiere.
Again if this is the reason why not just say so? Why lead people on and then let them down at a later date?
If it is a matter of CPU performance, what will change between now and later?

Right now both my 6 core PC and dual core PC are having the same slowness accessing the internet, as my ISP is to congested. My speeds are about a third of what I am supposed to be getting. My 6 core PC doesn't download any faster than my dual core PC.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Streaming from Amazon isn't the issue. That is superfast. It reaches the 1080P stream within a few seconds. The fastesd of any Amazon streaming device I have. It's the navigation of the UI that is a little slow. It's a lot slow if you compare it to navigating the VUDU UI on the Roamios and Minis. That is quick and snappy in comparison.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> Streaming from Amazon isn't the issue. That is superfast. It reaches the 1080P stream within a few seconds. The fastesd of any Amazon streaming device I have. It's the navigation of the UI that is a little slow. It's a lot slow if you compare it to navigating the VUDU UI on the Roamios and Minis. That is quick and snappy in comparison.


Understood. Amazon UI navigation performance on my Pro is responsive to button presses using my slide remote; not much different than navigating Tivo Central menus. There is a momentary pause when it is downloading info to the UI indicated by an orange swirly which typically does a single 360 before the next screen appears. I have not tried Vudu yet so cannot compare.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

-BUMP-



Jed1 said:


> I am not an optimistic/pessimistic person. I just deal with the facts at hand and as you noted TiVo doesn't really have a good track record on delivering on things.
> in the case of TiVo if you are a customer "A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush". It would be nicer if the apps were on my TiVo than expecting them on my TiVo.


And according to this tweet, Premieres will get both Amazon Instant, as well as support for the new OnePass, in the same February 2015 update:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/552532561063575555
That said, even though I just recently got a Roamio to supplant my 2-Tuner Premiere, I am relieved to see TiVo's continued support of the Premiere line.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

It really seems that a lot of recent delays were all based upon the move to Haxe. We have seen more important updates in the last three months than I ever would have ever expected for the Premiere.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think their MSO partners are putting pressure on them to continue supporting the Premiere longer then they would have had it only been a retail product. If it weren't for them TiVo may have ditched the Premiere line shortly after the Roamio launched, just like they've done with all other old models in the past.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I think their MSO partners are putting pressure on them to continue supporting the Premiere longer then they would have had it only been a retail product. If it weren't for them TiVo may have ditched the Premiere line shortly after the Roamio launched, just like they've done with all other old models in the past.


This is quite true. Are all of the affected apps on the MSO boxes though? Apps not on the MSO boxes won't get MSO pressure for updates...


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Maybe, but there is a difference from the past. The S2 boxes could not support the software loaded onto the S3 boxes - they were required to fork the codeset.

The S3 boxes could not support the software loaded onto the Premiere platform, they were forced to fork the code.

The Premiere hardware CAN support the Roamio software and as long as that remains true it seems to be in TiVo's best interest to continue to update the older line. Some of that is definitely about maintaining a refreshed platform for the MSOs, but also that for the first time it is POSSIBLE.

(I don't remember what happend between the S1 and S2 models)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> This is quite true. Are all of the affected apps on the MSO boxes though? Apps not on the MSO boxes won't get MSO pressure for updates...


They're options. RCN allows Netflix, they might also allow Amazon. Could be why there has been no mention of Vudu coming to Premiere units. Perhaps there is no interest in that service from their MSO partners.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> The Premiere hardware CAN support the Roamio software


The reason this is true could also be due to pressure from their MSO partners. They may have specifically chosen a compatible chipset for the Roamio because they knew they were going to have to maintain the Premiere for a few more years.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> The reason this is true could also be due to pressure from their MSO partners. They may have specifically chosen a compatible chipset for the Roamio because they knew they were going to have to maintain the Premiere for a few more years.


Very possible that the Roamio design strategy was to extend the life of the Premiere. I think it is safe to say the real answer is a combination of those things.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Could be why there has been no mention of Vudu coming to Premiere units.


Wait, what? When Amazon Instant and VUDU arrived for Roamio units, we were specifically told (by TiVo Margaret tweets, IIRC) that both would arrive on Premiere units, too. I think both will be there in the February update.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Fofer said:


> Wait, what? When Amazon Instant and VUDU arrived for Roamio units, we were specifically told (by TiVo Margaret tweets, IIRC) that both would arrive on Premiere units, too. I think both will be there in the February update.


I don't remember seeing it, but I expect you are correct.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I thought the tweets from Margret only mentioned Amazon. I didn't think she'd ever said Vudu was coming.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

She was asked about Amazon and confirmed it, she was never asked about vudu.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

The TiVo Support Twitter account confirmed it:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=522393


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/527575124904796161

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/527939815908851714


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

That's cool. I just wish I could have more of my purchased DVD and Blu-Ray content in VUDU. Out of 200 BD titles, only about 40 came with UV/VUDU codes.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Arcady said:


> That's cool. I just wish I could have more of my purchased DVD and Blu-Ray content in VUDU. Out of 200 BD titles, only about 40 came with UV/VUDU codes.


You can sync disney as well..


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

OK, I think I answered this in the negative (can't do it).. but just to be sure..

Just because I have VUDU, doesn't mean I have access to M-GO content, right? (I used Viggle points to get The Interview on M-Go, thinking I'd have to watch it on my iPad...)


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I think M-Go competes with Vudu - does it put content into Ultraviolet or another locker or just keep it in its own locker?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

They're both Ultraviolet.. but based upon my reading, ultraviolet is sort of a one-way thing.. right? Basically, other services can put their codes into UV, but you still end up watching the movies on the same service you bought them on?

e.g. company A and company B are both Ultraviolet "users".

I can't buy a movie that company A sells _that company B doesn't_, and play it in company B's product, even if they both use Ultraviolet as the _rights storage_.

Ultraviolet isn't the video storage itself.. just the rights...

So I think I've got it correct.

In short, yes, M Go is ultraviolet compatible.
https://help.mgo.com/hc/en-us/sections/200130553-UltraViolet


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

Arcady said:


> That's cool. I just wish I could have more of my purchased DVD and Blu-Ray content in VUDU. Out of 200 BD titles, only about 40 came with UV/VUDU codes.


For $2.00 at Walmart, you can take in your Blu-Ray and purchase the HD digital copy for your VUDU account. DVDs to HD digital are $5.00. Only applies to certain movie studios though.

Here's more info: http://www.vudu.com/disc_to_digital.html

Alternately, if you have a DVD or Blu-Ray player on your PC, you can do the process at home: http://www.vudu.com/in_home_disc_to_digital.html


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

mattack said:


> They're both Ultraviolet.. but based upon my reading, ultraviolet is sort of a one-way thing.. right? Basically, other services can put their codes into UV, but you still end up watching the movies on the same service you bought them on?


I've added movies on VUDU and watched them on Flixster.

And vice-versa.

UltraViolet is a two-way conduit. Assuming both providers offer the title, of course.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

mattack said:


> Just because I have VUDU, doesn't mean I have access to M-GO content, right? (I used Viggle points to get The Interview on M-Go, thinking I'd have to watch it on my iPad...)


The Interview isn't UltraViolet compatible. If it was, you'd see the logo on VUDU's page for it: http://www.vudu.com/movies/#!content/620354/The-Interview


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

pfiagra said:


> Alternately, if you have a DVD or Blu-Ray player on your PC, you can do the process at home: http://www.vudu.com/in_home_disc_to_digital.html


The home transfer process has an ongoing promo: 50% off when you do 10 or more.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

pfiagra said:


> Alternately, if you have a DVD or Blu-Ray player on your PC, you can do the process at home: http://www.vudu.com/in_home_disc_to_digital.html





Fofer said:


> The home transfer process has an ongoing promo: 50% off when you do 10 or more.


Thanks for the tip!

I didn't know this was an option until now. I just inserted 32 Blu-Ray discs that I would like to have in VUDU. Only 7 of them were accepted. The funny part is that I put in three DVDs that I don't have on Blu-Ray (because they aren't out on Blu-Ray) and they were all accepted, with HDX available.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I've done wuite a few disc to digital batches, and purchased a few movies directly as well. Now that Vudu is on TiVo I use it WAY more then I did on my smart TV.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> They're options. RCN allows Netflix, they might also allow Amazon. Could be why there has been no mention of Vudu coming to Premiere units. Perhaps there is no interest in that service from their MSO partners.


Yeah, that could be slowing it down. I used to rent from VUDU, until their quality became inconsistent and Amazon got better. I have some UV movies in VUDU, but I don't get the point, unless they are ones where someone gave me the UV code that they didn't want. Otherwise, I have the disc.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Yeah, that could be slowing it down. I used to rent from VUDU, until their quality became inconsistent and Amazon got better. I have some UV movies in VUDU, but I don't get the point, unless they are ones where someone gave me the UV code that they didn't want. Otherwise, I have the disc.


Where Ultra Violet makes sense is when you share your UV account with other family/friends. If you are the only person on the account and primarily get UV from codes coming with disks you are buying it does really do much other than for perhaps down the road to give you easier streaming options. If you are person who buys digital instead of disks then UV may make more sense as it does give you 5-6 services to buy/view from instead of just one. But like I said where it really shines is when you share the account with family/friends out of your home and you are all buying different movies that the others can then access. But honestly I am beginning to wonder if buying over renting makes much sense anymore. If someone can actually use streaming service allot of movies end up available via one or more of the subscription services down the road so owning doesn't get you much.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> I don't get the point, unless they are ones where someone gave me the UV code that they didn't want. Otherwise, I have the disc.


Convenience. I rarely ever watch discs, but picking a movie from an app and pressing play is so much easier that I've been watching way more movies.


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## swerver (May 18, 2012)

pfiagra said:


> For $2.00 at Walmart, you can take in your Blu-Ray and purchase the HD digital copy for your VUDU account. DVDs to HD digital are $5.00. Only applies to certain movie studios though.
> 
> Here's more info: http://www.vudu.com/disc_to_digital.html
> 
> Alternately, if you have a DVD or Blu-Ray player on your PC, you can do the process at home: http://www.vudu.com/in_home_disc_to_digital.html


If you go to wall Mart will they accept any movie, particularly ones that were rejected by the at home method? Or is it the same criteria. I have a bunch of discs that didn't work from home too. Big names, not oddball stuff. Any star wars, terminator 1 and 2, etc. Does it matter which particular version of a movie you have? Also do you still get half price for doing over 10 at once?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Convenience. I rarely ever watch discs, but picking a movie from an app and pressing play is so much easier that I've been watching way more movies.


Same here. The sheer convenience of being able to browse/select/stream from a big online locker is a huge step forward that I'm really enjoying. I'm watching way more movies now than I ever did with physical discs. That I get to share this big collection with my family, all around the country, is a nice benefit too.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

swerver said:


> If you go to wall Mart will they accept any movie, particularly ones that were rejected by the at home method? Or is it the same criteria. I have a bunch of discs that didn't work from home too. Big names, not oddball stuff. Any star wars, terminator 1 and 2, etc. Does it matter which particular version of a movie you have? Also do you still get half price for doing over 10 at once?


You can go to the Vudu disc to digital website to see which movies are available for this service.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

swerver said:


> If you go to wall Mart will they accept any movie, particularly ones that were rejected by the at home method? Or is it the same criteria. I have a bunch of discs that didn't work from home too. Big names, not oddball stuff. Any star wars, terminator 1 and 2, etc. Does it matter which particular version of a movie you have? Also do you still get half price for doing over 10 at once?


It's the same database, you can check what titles are eligible here:
http://www.vudu.com/disc_to_digital.html

Sometimes the software at home fails to recognize a disk, though. And that's when you can bring it to a WalMart, keep your fingers crossed you get to work with an employee who has a clue, and that their D2D system is operational, so you can have the title added to your VUDU library manually.

Yes, the software looks for particular version of a movie (it must be a commercially released title, in their eligible database) and then it automatically matches it up. Sometimes the matches aren't perfect. It might ofter a theatrical version when you have a Director's cut, for example. In WalMart they'd just type in the name and click the matching title. So long as they know what they're doing... which isn't always a guarantee.

The 50% off sale is only for the at-home D2D conversions. Not for in-store at Walmart.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Why go to the store and pay double?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

If you don't have a Blu Ray drive on your computer, or you do, and the titles you're trying to convert aren't being recognized by the software, or you're not doing 10 or more titles, and/or you just like the adventure of dealing with a Walmart employee, or you want to try and convert VHS tapes like I did... 

...well then, going into the store is your only choice.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> Why go to the store and pay double?


Because the disc is unrecognized, yet it's a title they'll let you buy via D2D.

Your choice is report it and be ignored for years, or just go pay double (aka normal D2D price) at a store.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Most of the discs I tried could recognize the disc, but the movie wasn't available. Only one or two discs were not recognized, and those too were not available anyway when I looked them up.

It seems like every one that had old-school Digital Copy would not allow me to use D2D. It must be a licensing thing on those. Lots of my older movies were not available either.

One title bugs me. I had a "Despicable Me" Blu-Ray/DVD/Digital Copy/UV disc that is several years old. It was probably one of the first UV titles. The UV code is recognized, but it is expired. The thing that bugs me is that I can't pay the $2 to convert it. It says this version is not accepted. The funniest part is that iTunes took the same code and let me download to iTunes. Of course, there's no way to transfer from iTunes to VUDU.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I usually check title eligibility via the website before trying the VUDU To Go software's D2D function.



Arcady said:


> Of course, there's no way to transfer from iTunes to VUDU.


There is if it's a Disney (DMA) title...


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> Where Ultra Violet makes sense is when you share your UV account with other family/friends.


Yeah, this is the only area I plan on using it, and even then, my collection is small, since not all movies are UV anyway. Disney has their own system, but most of those codes are not from discs that are mine anyway, so I get streaming access to them.



> But honestly I am beginning to wonder if buying over renting makes much sense anymore. If someone can actually use streaming service allot of movies end up available via one or more of the subscription services down the road so owning doesn't get you much.


Renting makes sense most of the time for most movies. I only buy for stuff that I think I really want in my collection, that other people will likely be interested in, and that I will want to watch again. I also buy some used, as it's like $8-$10 for a lot of movies on Amazon, vs. $6 to rent, or if a movie is in 3D (I have a grand total of 3 of those, you can probably guess which 3).



Dan203 said:


> Convenience. I rarely ever watch discs, but picking a movie from an app and pressing play is so much easier that I've been watching way more movies.


But if you own the Blu-ray, you may as well use it... It's not like walking to the shelf and then over to the blu-ray player is _that_ hard...


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Fofer said:


> -BUMP-
> 
> And according to this tweet, Premieres will get both Amazon Instant, as well as support for the new OnePass, in the same February 2015 update:
> 
> ...


Yes. I have been aware of this news for a few weeks now. There is other things I know about the Premieres but I am not at the liberty to say anything. No I am not beta testing.

I have been watching as a number of you Premiere owners jumped ship. This is exactly the thing I figured will happen. TiVo went out of their way to get as many people to move up to the Roamio as possible.
I have seen this tactic used numerous times before, get as many owners to upgrade as possible then leave the late adopters to suffer with equipment that will go unsupported. OPPO is good at doing this.
I suspect there will not be many posts if and when Margret posts the release notes for the Premieres.

Right now it is Broadcom that is keeping the Premiere line alive as they are still working with TiVo to keep improving the performance of the Premiere's chipset.
There seems to have been a performance upgrade that came with the Winter Update. I am constantly finding myself making double clicks with the remote. If I hit the guide button the guide pops up and then goes away. Also very difficult when manually entering channel numbers. You have to quickly tap each button or you will get double of each number you hit.
I haven't seen a spinning blue circle for quite a while now. I only see that if there is a problem on TiVo's side.


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## celtic pride (Nov 8, 2005)

you cant be serious about oppo? they are one of if not the best company i've ever dealt with! they recently gave us the new software update for the new x-man movie, sent me 2 free belts to fix a dvd player i had and even fixed my bluray players disc tray for free on my older bdp-83 blu ray player ,and i had it sent back to me in 2 days!


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Jed1 said:


> I have been watching as a number of you Premiere owners jumped ship.


I didn't jump ship, I got a new Roamio and a TiVo Mini companion to add to my home network. My Premiere was 2-tuner only but will remain in good use.

Technology marches on. I choose appreciation over misguided bitterness. Life is good. Enjoy it sometime...


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Fofer said:


> I didn't jump ship, I got a new Roamio and a TiVo Min companion to add to my home network. My Premiere was 2-tuner only but will remain in good use.


Ya.

I have three - Roamio Plus, 2-Tuner Premiere and HDLX. All have lifetime and in use. I plan to hang on to the Premiere because of the cable and antenna connections. I'm glad to hear that TiVo hasn't completely abandoned the old technology.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Jed1 said:


> I have been watching as a number of you Premiere owners jumped ship.


Totally anecdotal comment. Without data, you can say (and believe) anything you want.

Jump ship? How do you know these Premiere owners didn't want another TiVo? A six-tuner TiVo? A faster TiVo? You don't, of course.

I recently bought my second Roamio. Did I jump ship? Well, I still have my Elite running, and of course my first Roamio is still zooming along. Jump ship? Nah, I just like the newest and fastest technology. The update schedule for my Elite is the farthest thing from my mind. Whether it was the same as my Roamio, later than my Roamio, or never than my Roamio, it wouldn't matter to my Roamio Purchase(s).

You're not just reading between the lines, you're inventing entire stories there.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

celtic pride said:


> you cant be serious about oppo? they are one of if not the best company i've ever dealt with! they recently gave us the new software update for the new x-man movie, sent me 2 free belts to fix a dvd player i had and even fixed my bluray players disc tray for free on my older bdp-83 blu ray player ,and i had it sent back to me in 2 days!


I also own the BDP 83. I bought it in July of 2010, 2 months before the BDP 93 was released. OPPO was not going to do the last update but a number of us complained and when they looked into the problem it was an easy fix. The last update was in 2012 and I believe there was two in 2011.
By the way OPPO said this is the last update for the BDP 83.
The problem is OPPO will not fix the audio drop out problem, which by the way is plaguing the BDP 93. 
The significance of this is Dolby Atmos will only work with bitstream so the LPCM work around is no good. So going forward as the number of discs are released with Dolby Atmos and you want to use Atmos then the BDP 83 is useless.

So in reality if there is going to be an increasing number of Blu ray discs the OPPO will not play then it is pointless to fix the loader in the player if it goes bad. Now I must point out that my Pioneer BDP 320 is as old as the OPPO BDP 83 and it received more updates and will bitstream Dolby Atmos. 
From other reports there is even older Blu ray players that are still receiving updates and can play titles that the OPPO has trouble with. Also these players did not cost $500 new.

It was agreeable during the format war that firmware updates were going to be needed to keep the players usable. I purchased the OPPO under the idea that they would go above and beyond and keep the player updated, especially that the player costs $500. So the fact that they are failing at this key point then their service reputation is not that great. 
I can not afford to be dropping at least $500 every two years on a new OPPO because they either don't have the time or the man power to keep the older platforms updated.
I suspect that OPPO will abandon the 103 series when they release the next gen player.

I am not anti OPPO or angry at OPPO but I have to go with what facts exist at this moment. If they fix the audio drop out issue then I will change my opinion on how good their service is.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Fofer said:


> I didn't jump ship, I got a new Roamio and a TiVo Mini companion to add to my home network. My Premiere was 2-tuner only but will remain in good use.
> 
> Technology marches on. I choose appreciation over misguided bitterness. Life is good. Enjoy it sometime...





Beryl said:


> Ya.
> 
> I have three - Roamio Plus, 2-Tuner Premiere and HDLX. All have lifetime and in use. I plan to hang on to the Premiere because of the cable and antenna connections. I'm glad to hear that TiVo hasn't completely abandoned the old technology.





astrohip said:


> Totally anecdotal comment. Without data, you can say (and believe) anything you want.
> 
> Jump ship? How do you know these Premiere owners didn't want another TiVo? A six-tuner TiVo? A faster TiVo? You don't, of course.
> 
> ...


I am not blaming you guys for buying new Tivos as some of you were offered some good deals to make the upgrade. I am concerned as to why TiVo is doing these deals. It seems to me that they want to get as many customers on the new platform as possible.
Yes I have confirmation that the Premiere will get an update next month and probably one after that but beyond that, it is anybody's guess. 
If I was offered a sweet heart deal right now I would bail also but I do not have enough time in and my units are only one and half years old. The warranty's on these two units will not run out until the summer of 2016. So I am currently stuck. If I would have not opted for lifetime service and only had monthly I would have taken one of the holiday deals.
If I would have bought these units a few years earlier I would not even be complaining.

I am by no means being bitter about this but the crap I have been through in the past ten years has me on edge. These type of actions by a company has me concerned that I will be screwed as I got in to late on this platform. I have been in this position before.

Just today I packed up my Onkyo receiver to be returned to them for repairs. This is not the first time I had to pull a receiver out of my rack as I have done this about four times now in ten years. One of those receivers ended up in a landfill as Pioneer would not stand behind it. That unit was $1800. My other Onkyo receiver has a HDMI board issue as well but they will only put the same flawed board back in it at a cost of $200. So you know what this means, in the garbage it goes. 
Sony pulled the same crap with the optical block issues with their rear projection TVs. Put the same flawed part in it and it fails again.

On top of this my cable company raised my internet speeds to 30 meg but incorporated fulltime caps and then raised my rates my $11.54/month. But since they did this I can not get decent download speeds in the evenings. Normally I end up with a quarter to a third of what I am paying for.
At 6:28 PM this evening I clocked a record low speed of 967kbps down and had a quality of service rating of ZERO%. 
This crap has been going on now since August 2nd. I was recently told by a manager of my cable company if I do not like the service I can take my business elsewhere. The only problem there is no other place to take my business to as they are the only game left in town. Verizon has abandoned the old telephone system here so DSL is no longer an option.

Right now I am not even certain I will subscribe to cable TV anymore as the cost is getting out of control. I was having hopes for some streaming options but the way my internet service is going that is now getting to be doubtful. My neighbor told me this morning that Netflix actually stops working at times during the evening. So my hopes of using Amazon Prime is very low right now.

I will let it ride for a while and see how things turn out this summer.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Jed1 said:


> ......... Sony pulled the same crap with the optical block issues with their rear projection TVs. Put the same flawed part in it and it fails again. .......


This is completely false! I have had it done to mine and my cousin's Sony RPTVs years ago and I have performed the upgrades myself as a service tech. My cousin still has theirs and it looks amazing still! Stop spreading lies to support your bad attitude. (if you're speaking of the SXRD RPTVs that is)


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

Jed1 said:


> Yes. I have been aware of this news for a few weeks now. There is other things I know about the Premieres but I am not at the liberty to say anything. No I am not beta testing.
> 
> I have been watching as a number of you Premiere owners jumped ship. This is exactly the thing I figured will happen. TiVo went out of their way to get as many people to move up to the Roamio as possible.
> I have seen this tactic used numerous times before, get as many owners to upgrade as possible then leave the late adopters to suffer with equipment that will go unsupported. OPPO is good at doing this.
> ...


reboot Tivo new batteries in remote our premiers aren't slow/ don't have the symptoms yon mention.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Jed1 said:


> I have been watching as a number of you Premiere owners jumped ship. This is exactly the thing I figured will happen. TiVo went out of their way to get as many people to move up to the Roamio as possible.
> I have seen this tactic used numerous times before, get as many owners to upgrade as possible then leave the late adopters to suffer with equipment that will go unsupported. OPPO is good at doing this.
> I suspect there will not be many posts if and when Margret posts the release notes for the Premieres.


When you say they jumped ship, you mean they probably bought a Roamio and sold the Premiere to someone else.

It's foolish of you to assume other's will employ your well researched accounting practice of destroying their old Premiere to deny Tivo a subscription, out of spite.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

shwru980r said:


> When you say they jumped ship, you mean they probably bought a Roamio and sold the Premiere to someone else.


Wait, I'm not allowed to keep using my Premiere along with my new Roamio? Says who?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Jed1 said:


> I am not blaming you guys for buying new Tivos as some of you were offered some good deals to make the upgrade. I am concerned as to why TiVo is doing these deals. It seems to me that they want to get as many customers on the new platform as possible.
> Yes I have confirmation that the Premiere will get an update next month and probably one after that but beyond that, it is anybody's guess.


If TiVo never updated my XL4 again, I'd be pretty darn happy. It's far faster and has more features than when I bought it. My TiVo is probably the only device I've ever seen that got faster over time with software updates (excluding Apple updates that partially un-do a slowdown caused by new software). Most devices, like my iPhone, have gotten slower and slower as new, heavier, bloatier software is put on them.



> At 6:28 PM this evening I clocked a record low speed of 967kbps down and had a quality of service rating of ZERO%.


Holy crap, they need to split your node a couple of times, or add way more DOCSIS QAMs. Who's your cable company? Cable should be rock solid speed wise. My Comcast never seems to get up to it's advertised speed, but it's still pulling 55mbps+ on a really bad day.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

HarperVision said:


> This is completely false! I have had it done to mine and my cousin's Sony RPTVs years ago and I have performed the upgrades myself as a service tech. My cousin still has theirs and it looks amazing still! Stop spreading lies to support your bad attitude. (if you're speaking of the SXRD RPTVs that is)


I am not going debate this saga again. I am glad that this worked out well for you or someone you know but it did not go that way for most people.

The guy that tried to fix my RCA DLP and Sony was also a dealer and service center for RCA and Sony for many years. He eventually got sued by some customers and lost his business that he had since the 1970's.
About two years ago I called him to see if he could get some parts for my old RCA DLP I still had, so since he would be going by my house the next morning he said he would stop by. He looked the set and started telling me the debacle he got in with Sony and how he got sued and lost his business. After that he told me to throw the RCA in the garbage and then handed me a bill for $60 for that advice. I paid him and I never seen him again.
So now you all know where I get the "throw it in the garbage" saying from. Oh yea I did try to get parts but I can not find the right light engine for the unit and I have resigned to junk it when the next electronic recycling comes this year. I never even got to use the spare bulb I bought years ago for it. The Sony XBR 2, I bought from the guy I just talked about, so I got most of my money back when the blob issue appeared.

Here is a comprehensive detail of the Sony RPTV issues.
https://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/
Here is the settlement for the SXRD Sonys.
https://sites.google.com/site/sonyl...suits#TOC-Cardenas-SXRD2-Q006-XBR2-A2000-A202


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Bigg said:


> Holy crap, they need to split your node a couple of times, or add way more DOCSIS QAMs. Who's your cable company? Cable should be rock solid speed wise. My Comcast never seems to get up to it's advertised speed, but it's still pulling 55mbps+ on a really bad day.


The sad thing is it actually has nothing to do about the distribution system because all was well until they started to implement the full time caps. They started to use priority service for the data on the network so the data pipe for residential data is pretty small. You can thank Verizon for the end of net neutrality. 
Their response to the speed complaints is to tell the customers to downgrade to their 5 meg service so the speed drop does not look that bad.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

When do you think the priority page will be up for this or will it just happen during nightly call?


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Some clarity regarding Vudu and Amazon Prime. Looks like Amazon Prime comes to the Premiere with OnePass in February/March, Vudu to follow with the next software release after that.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/554781484616142848


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Jed1 said:


> The sad thing is it actually has nothing to do about the distribution system because all was well until they started to implement the full time caps. They started to use priority service for the data on the network so the data pipe for residential data is pretty small. You can thank Verizon for the end of net neutrality.
> Their response to the speed complaints is to tell the customers to downgrade to their 5 meg service so the speed drop does not look that bad.


HUH? Priority for who or what? If everything can't get through at a decent speed, there's not enough bandwidth.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Bigg said:


> HUH? Priority for who or what? If everything can't get through at a decent speed, there's not enough bandwidth.


My cable company does not own their own ISP. They are partnered with another small cable operator and they own the ISP.
My internet speeds were rock solid right up until the end of July. On August 2nd I noticed my internet was really slow and speed test showed that. Ironically August 1st, the full time caps kicked in.
Also if you want commercial internet you no longer call my cable company you have to call the ISP. If you get commercial internet you will lose any bundle pricing you have and then you pay the ISP for internet service. Of course the commercial internet is very expensive. I would pay well over $100/month for the current speed I have now. The caveat is I will not face the reduced speeds like I have been since August. 
The company that owns the ISP also owns the phone system.

The residential speed issue is just not in my neighborhood, it is affecting the whole company. Complaints are coming in from all divisions. All this started in August with the beginning of the full time caps.
I have just talked to a person who belongs to the other cable company and they do not have the full time caps or reduced speed issues.

What the ISP is doing is giving priority to commercial data over residential data. It also appears that they are not doing this to their own residential customers, who use the same ISP. This is the effect caused by the end of net neutrality.
On top of this my cable company just negotiated a new retransmission agreement with Disney Corp which also includes TV Everywhere for ESPN.
I really do not know how many people actually use this service but it does not help with the congestion that all the residential customers suffer from.

Oh yea there is no other options for internet as this is mostly a rural area so it is use them or have nothing at all.
Verizon abandoned the POTS system here. You can get DSL if it works in your neighborhood. If it does not then Verizon will not fix it. Most of the people in my neighborhood put up with sporadic service and pay a high monthly cost for it.

At lunch time I was already at 10 meg down. By 5:00 PM I am down to 5 meg. I am supposed to get 30 meg. I know tomorrow will be worse as this is the day when the internet gets the heaviest use. 
If tomorrow is as bad as last week then Monday morning I will look into getting a commercial internet account. I will see what the actual cost will be.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Jed1 said:


> This is the effect caused by the end of net neutrality.


Unless you're posting from a very bleak future (and it sounds like you are) we still have net neutrality.

If you are paying for 30Mbps internet, they need to deliver it.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Arcady said:


> Unless you're posting from a very bleak future (and it sounds like you are) we still have net neutrality.
> 
> If you are paying for 30Mbps internet, they need to deliver it.


If your ISP delivers any where near the speed you are paying for in the evening lucky you. My ISP (Frontier DSL) sells 6Mbps service that daily drops from 6 Mbps in the morning to 1+/- Mbps in the evening. My friends with TWC also see evening slow downs loosing about 2/3 of their speed.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Arcady said:


> Unless you're posting from a very bleak future (and it sounds like you are) we still have net neutrality.
> 
> If you are paying for 30Mbps internet, they need to deliver it.


Or what?

There is no competition, there is no enforcement. Residential internet is provided as a 'best effort' which translates to you get what we give you. Or you can leave and get nothing at all.

No, net neutrality is gone, or at least not enforced whatsoever. He is telling you that commercial data has been given priority over residential data on his system for monetary reasons. This is the definition of what net neutrality is supposed to prevent, yet its currently prevalent across the US. If you want your data to get through on a priority basis, pay more to transmit it. Not neutral, monetary.

Why do you think the FCC decision around Net Neutrality and Title II status is such a big deal?

If your residential internet provider gives you the bandwidth you contracted for during the high use evening hours and does not impose any caps on usage, consider your self very lucky. That simply is not the case for most locations. Even for business class service, while better, its not perfect and is MUCH higher priced.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> He is telling you that commercial data has been given priority over residential data on his system for monetary reasons. This is the definition of what net neutrality is supposed to prevent, yet its currently prevalent across the US. If you want your data to get through on a priority basis, pay more to transmit it. Not neutral, monetary.


Seems anecdotal and not based on evidence other than not getting the speed he used to get. Maybe the wires got wet.

I thought net neutrality says *your *traffic isn't prioritized based on its type. It doesn't say that someone can't get more bandwidth by paying more, which appears to be the complaint.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> If your ISP delivers any where near the speed you are paying for in the evening lucky you. My ISP (Frontier DSL) sells 6Mbps service that daily drops from 6 Mbps in the morning to 1+/- Mbps in the evening. My friends with TWC also see evening slow downs loosing about 2/3 of their speed.


Yeah, my internet speed drops to under 80 Mbps sometimes. It's awful.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Arcady said:


> Yeah, my internet speed drops to under 80 Mbps sometimes. It's awful.


Ya sure sounds like you live in a good place for Internet access. I just finished this months TiVo survey and told them the first question they need to ask is if the person has Internet Access available where streaming is even viable. I would likely sub to Netflix, Amazon, & Hulu+ if I could actually use the services in the evening.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Speaking of speed. I just ran speed tests on my Roamio and Premiere with the Opera app. On the Premiere I received 5500 kb/s, and the Roamio gets 9600 kb/s. I also have the same app on my Sony Blu-ray and TV. The TV gets 16000 kb/s and the Blu-ray get 17500 kb/s. I have also Googled for speed tests and they are pretty consistent across the country at 4Mbs when using the Ookla test. I pay for 5Mbs, but have the same problems as Jed1. My interest is mainly because I find with a speed of 4.5Mbs I can get reliable Amazon performance, including 1080p/5.1 for trailers. Until my ISP gets their stuff fixed I'm not going to get a sub to Amazon but their trailers are free. Netflix should do that.

But why is there such a big difference between TiVo and Sony? The slowest, the Premiere, is wired. All other devices are wireless. The transfer speed from Premiere to Roamio is just over 80Mbs all the time since I record movies on one and watch on the other. Any speculation or information is welcome.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Speaking of speed. I just ran speed tests on my Roamio and Premiere with the Opera app. On the Premiere I received 5500 kb/s, and the Roamio gets 9600 kb/s. I also have the same app on my Sony Blu-ray and TV. The TV gets 16000 kb/s and the Blu-ray get 17500 kb/s. I have also Googled for speed tests and they are pretty consistent across the country at 4Mbs when using the Ookla test. I pay for 5Mbs, but have the same problems as Jed1. My interest is mainly because I find with a speed of 4.5Mbs I can get reliable Amazon performance, including 1080p/5.1 for trailers. Until my ISP gets their stuff fixed I'm not going to get a sub to Amazon but their trailers are free. Netflix should do that.
> 
> But why is there such a big difference between TiVo and Sony? The slowest, the Premiere, is wired. All other devices are wireless. The transfer speed from Premiere to Roamio is just over 80Mbs all the time since I record movies on one and watch on the other. Any speculation or information is welcome.


I'm confused...

Premiere - 5500 Kbps = 5.5 Mbps
Roamio - 9600 Kbps = 9.6 Mbps
Sony TV - 16000 Kbps = 16 Mbps
Sony BluRay - 17500 Kbps = 17.5 Mbps

Yet you say your internet connection is advertised as 5 Mbps and you usually get 4.5 Mbps, so something doesn't add up here.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Diana Collins said:


> I'm confused...
> 
> Premiere - 5500 Kbps = 5.5 Mbps
> Roamio - 9600 Kbps = 9.6 Mbps
> ...


I agree 100%. Do I trust any numbers? I've run the tests from a Google search and it's closer to 4Mbs today. Have you checked your TiVo or other Opera app device? I don't trust my router since it always reports over 5 and I have others people using my ISP with speed problems. The ISP support page even has this documented. What can I say? I do find the relative inaccuracy strange.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> But if you own the Blu-ray, you may as well use it... It's not like walking to the shelf and then over to the blu-ray player is _that_ hard...


No it's not, but the whole experience including switching inputs, turning on the BD player and waiting for it to boot up, loading the disc, navigating the menus, skipping trailers, etc... adds up to a poor user experience that causes me to avoid watching BDs. I actually own more movies on Vudu now then I own on disc. And pretty much every important DVD/BD I own has been converted. I could actually get rid of most/all of my disc collection at this point.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I have about 400 blu-ray discs, but just reached 60 movies on VUDU. I don't see ever getting all of the disc content available on VUDU either due to not being available or costing too much. (Some titles that didn't come with a code cost more on VUDU than the actual blu-ray disc, and many won't allow the disc-to-digital thing.)


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> No it's not, but the whole experience including switching inputs, turning on the BD player and waiting for it to boot up, loading the disc, navigating the menus, skipping trailers, etc... adds up to a poor user experience that causes me to avoid watching BDs. I actually own more movies on Vudu now then I own on disc.


+100

*Especially* since I like to bounce around in movies and only watch some favorite scenes, or watch 20 minutes of this one, and then switch to another one for 15 minutes...

That's a PITA with discs. With online streaming, it's all a breeze.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Jed1 said:


> What the ISP is doing is giving priority to commercial data over residential data. It also appears that they are not doing this to their own residential customers, who use the same ISP. This is the effect caused by the end of net neutrality.


Basically, they are totally incompetent and don't have enough bandwidth to service their customers. That sounds like a core network issue, not even a last mile issue. I'm not sure that's a net neutrality issue, per se, as they aren't prioritizing one website or service over another. It still sounds like a bad mixtures of extreme incompetence and very shady business practices. Also, WatchESPN shouldn't cause congestion on a properly managed network, although they obviously don't have one.



atmuscarella said:


> If your ISP delivers any where near the speed you are paying for in the evening lucky you. My ISP (Frontier DSL) sells 6Mbps service that daily drops from 6 Mbps in the morning to 1+/- Mbps in the evening. My friends with TWC also see evening slow downs loosing about 2/3 of their speed.


That's awful. My Comcast is about 40% slower than it should be, but it still pulls 60mbps pretty reliably. My parents also just got Blast! as part of a Triple Play package, and their 105/10 internet tests at 123/12.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> No it's not, but the whole experience including switching inputs, turning on the BD player and waiting for it to boot up, loading the disc, navigating the menus, skipping trailers, etc... adds up to a poor user experience that causes me to avoid watching BDs. I actually own more movies on Vudu now then I own on disc. And pretty much every important DVD/BD I own has been converted. I could actually get rid of most/all of my disc collection at this point.


'MURICA!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> 'MURICA!


I shoulda put #FirstWorldProblems at the end of my post.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I shoulda put #FirstWorldProblems at the end of my post.


Yup! Ranks up there my "my house so big my wifi don't work!"


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> No it's not, but the whole experience including switching inputs, turning on the BD player and waiting for it to boot up, loading the disc, navigating the menus, skipping trailers, etc... adds up to a poor user experience that causes me to avoid watching BDs. I actually own more movies on Vudu now then I own on disc. And pretty much every important DVD/BD I own has been converted. I could actually get rid of most/all of my disc collection at this point.


This is why I like my Xbox One so much. Not for the video games... which are nice. It's because of how trivially fast media consumption is on it.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Anyone having issues with Amazon Prime? It's not loading for me on one of my Minis (even after reboot). Haven't rebooted the Roamio yet. VUDU and other apps load fine (which is why I wonder if it's an issue server side vs local hardware)

Edit to add: I haven't tried to load it on the roamio or on my second mini, just the one box


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Amazon Prime is working on the Roamio here..


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Beryl said:


> Amazon Prime is working on the Roamio here..


Thanks. Will have to reboot the roamio...


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

If anybody is interested, Amazon is offering Amazon Prime for $72 today only (1/24/2015).
This would be for new members only. If you already have a Prime membership the discount rate will not apply.
Follow this link.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/prime/pipeline/prime_gifting_landing?ie=UTF8&ref=Transparentprime
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DBYBNEE?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=footer_prime


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Says $99 for me


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> Says $99 for me


There is a banner at the top of the page linked to by Jed1 that takes you to the $72 deal.

Here's a direct link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/prime/pipeline/prime_gifting_landing?ie=UTF8&ref=Transparentprime


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> Says $99 for me


This would be for new members only. If you already have a Prime membership the discount rate will not apply.
I will edit my original post to mention this.
I just signed up. I paid $66 and some change as I had a $10 Gift card plus I got hit with PA sales tax.
Now all I need is TiVo to follow through on the Amazon Prime app on the Premieres.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Apparently existing customers (like myself) can also buy a "gift subscription" for $79 ... for themselves ... and just redeem that gift code after their subscription's ended. Just make sure your existing subscription doesn't auto-renew.


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