# Game of Thrones "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" S05E06 OAD: 5/17/15



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Ramsay shoulda found a knife on his back courtesy of Theon...umm...Reek!! What a waste he is!!

And that trial would have never taken place if Joffrey and/or Tywin were around!

The Sand Snakes were pretty bad ass but I was hoping Bronn was going to at least hurt one of them.


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

That ending was unnecessary.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I was speechless during that last scene, praying to all the gods (old and new) that Theon would kill him. I can't believe he's so brainwashed he just watched his "sister" get raped by that psychopath.

Also I'm surprised they let him identify himself as Theon Greyjoy.

Was this Littlefinger's plan? He couldn't have actually believed Ramsey wouldn't hurt her?

Why didn't they just kill Tyrion so they could cut off his **** in front of the merchant? Why does keeping him alive matter? Just so they don't have to lug his corpse around?

I thought Mormont (?) was going to be challenged to prove his fighting prowess on the spot.

Arya's not going to become a faceless man but she is going to get that girl's face.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

So is Cersei really trying to start a war with Highgarden, or is she

Just.

That.

Stupid?


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So is Cersei really trying to start a war with Highgarden, or is she
> 
> Just.
> 
> ...


There is no that this ends well for her or for the Kingdom. She is just that petty and hurt.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I kept thinking that just before Ramsay started, a war horn would blow, and Stannis would lead his attack. But that only happens in fairy tales, and well, this ain't no fairy tale.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Wow brutal ending - guess that is what they were referring to earlier in the interviews I watched. Hoping it doesn't get much darker than that but it very well could.

Sand snakes were cool - still love Bronn though


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Robin said:


> Also I'm surprised they let him identify himself as Theon Greyjoy.


 I think they needed someone of some rank to give away Sansa in the ceremony: having your sniveling tortured insane servant give away your bride to you can't be good for your stature.



Robin said:


> Why didn't they just kill Tyrion so they could cut off his **** in front of the merchant? Why does keeping him alive matter? Just so they don't have to lug his corpse around?


 There's no real refrigeration available. Who knows how long they'd need to keep his corpse around... easier to keep him alive I'd think.



Robin said:


> I thought Mormont (?) was going to be challenged to prove his fighting prowess on the spot.


 After all that I doubt they wanted to risk giving him a weapon.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> So is Cersei really trying to start a war with Highgarden, or is she
> 
> Just.
> 
> ...


 Well, she's given herself deniability: she spoke out for the Queen at the hearing after all. I mean, it's obvious to everyone exactly what happened but she doesn't appear to be involved if you look at it from the outside.

I'm not sure how much that matters to Highgarden though.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Robin said:


> Also I'm surprised they let him identify himself as Theon Greyjoy.


Ramsay has allowed Reek to "pretend" he's Theon before when the Boltons first captured Moat Caillin. So it's not that surprising that Ramsay would allow it again in this situation.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

That was brutal


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I think we're getting set up for Theon to kill Ramsay. I wanted to myself for sure.


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## jasrub (May 9, 2008)

When Sansa started to undo her sleeves, I expected (wanted) her to pull out a dagger and kill him.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Lady Olenna is smart. I'm surprised she didn't see through it. I knew what was going to happen to Loras...I just didn't know they were going to be able to snag Margaery in it as well. But as soon as she was called to testify, I knew they were just baiting her to incriminate herself, too.

Cercei's risk here (and this is what Lady Olenna should have told Margaery to discuss with Tommen) is that if they are arresting Loras over these mere rumors of him being gay, how long before they come after Cercei and Jamie over those rumors, too (though they'll probably have to get creative due to the lack of a witness)?

And WOW, if Tommen won't even raise a hand for his wife, I can totally see how this all plays out.

Uncle Stannis is at the gate? He says King Robert isn't really my dad? [...later, back at castely rock...] There was no way to stop Uncle Stannis without violence...we'll find another way.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Lady Olenna is smart. I'm surprised she didn't see through it.


She's probably just TOO smart. Sometimes, smart people just can't comprehend how stupid stupid people can be. From her perspective, why would Cersei do something that will probably result in the final destruction of her entire family? It would be incomprehensible, if you didn't realize just how stupid (and delusional) Cersei really is.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So is Cersei really trying to start a war with Highgarden, or is she
> 
> Just.
> 
> ...


She is like my 9-year-old. A clever bit of deception/lie/plot for instant gratification without any thought whatsoever to the eventual terrible consequences.

Even more childlike is how she pretended to be like her father and kept writing. What an idiot.



pjenkins said:


> Sand snakes were cool - still love Bronn though


Cool? for all their tough talk, they couldn't beat 1.5 men in 5 minutes of fighting!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Why can't a knight's squire know about a birthmark on his knight without having sex with him?

That was pretty silly.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Why can't a knight's squire know about a birthmark on his knight without having sex with him?
> 
> That was pretty silly.


Yeah, considering part of his job is to dress the boss for combat...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, considering part of his job is to dress the boss for combat...


There have been a couple of spots where I thought "this can't be in the books"...I mentioned them as they happened in these threads so I won't mention them again (since some might consider them a spoiler). But I'd be surprised if the case against Loras and the Queen was this slimsy in the book.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Why can't a knight's squire know about a birthmark on his knight without having sex with him?
> 
> That was pretty silly.


I thought the same at first. But then remember, this is just a pre-trial hearing to decide if there's even sufficient evidence to at least bother with an actual trial. The birthmark evidence might be flimsy, but taken with the testimony, it's enough for them to go through with the trial.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So is Cersei really trying to start a war with Highgarden, or is she
> 
> Just.
> 
> ...


YES! Too mean-spirited to be smart, actually


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> I thought the same at first. But then remember, this is just a pre-trial hearing to decide if there's even sufficient evidence to at least bother with an actual trial. The birthmark evidence might be flimsy, but taken with the testimony, it's enough for them to go through with the trial.


No doubt it was a Kangaroo court. Still, I expected something more. A calm "so? he has seen me naked a thousand times as he bathed and dressed me" would have been an easy rebuttal.

I won't harp on it. It is what it is. I didn't like it but I can live with it. When I eventually read the books, I certainly hope this part was better written (or maybe I'll be surprised and find out this whole story arc is not in the books!).


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I hope Diana Rigg can go Emma Peel on Ceisei's behind.

I'm a little over Arya's storyline. I hope it has a good pay off.

The guy who took Tyrion prisoner looked a little like the actor who played Arrabice on Oz. I wondered.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Cainebj said:


> The guy who took Tyrion prisoner looked a little like the actor who played Arrabice on Oz. I wondered.


Yep, it's him.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Cainebj said:


> I'm a little over Arya's storyline. I hope it has a good pay off.


Same here. I'm not sure if I'm more disinterested in Arya or Bran. Arya's seemed to have some promise, but the rug has almost completely been pulled out from under her, as almost everyone on her list is already dead. Once she has the skills, I'm not exactly sure where she's going to aim them.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Cainebj said:


> The guy who took Tyrion prisoner looked a little like the actor who played Arrabice on Oz. I wondered.


Speaking of Oz, did anyone else heard Oh-Wee-Oh when Jaime and Bronn entered the Garden? 

Speaking of Dorn, don't remember who got sliced by one of the Sand Snakes, but I was thinking, was there poison involved? Yikes!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Speaking of Dorn, don't remember who got sliced by one of the Sand Snakes, but I was thinking, was there poison involved? Yikes!


I thought it was Bronn, but it was so fast, and it would probably make more sense/be more likely if it was Jamie. That said, I'm not sure why they'd bother with poison. That's not fast acting enough to help them in battle, and if they managed to get close enough to Myrcella to wound her, I'm sure they'd have no problem making it fatal. Oberyn used the poison simply because he wanted revenge on the mountain, and even if Oberyn died, he at least wanted the satisfaction of knowing he got a fatal blow in on him.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

gossamer88 said:


> Speaking of Oz, did anyone else heard Oh-Wee-Oh when Jaime and Bronn entered the Garden?
> 
> Speaking of Dorn, don't remember who got sliced by one of the Sand Snakes, but I was thinking, was there poison involved? Yikes!


That was Bronn.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Bronx got a small cut just before the of the fight, I expected him to die in short order from poison.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I thought it was Bronn, but it was so fast, and it would probably make more sense/be more likely if it was Jamie. That said, I'm not sure why they'd bother with poison. That's not fast acting enough to help them in battle, and if they managed to get close enough to Myrcella to wound her, I'm sure they'd have no problem making it fatal. Oberyn used the poison simply because he wanted revenge on the mountain, and even if Oberyn died, he at least wanted the satisfaction of knowing he got a fatal blow in on him.


He was known as the Red Viper. He used poison in all his battles.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

A lot of similarities between Sansa and Dany's wedding nights. Of course, Dany's husband just didn't know any better and turned out to be a decent guy. I have no such hope for Ramsay.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> He was known as the Red Viper. He used poison in all his battles.


You would expect him to have taught his kids that trick.


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

That was the most half assed poorly filmed/written battle between the powder puff girls and 1.5 men. The whole plot for Dorne is bringing this season to it's knees.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Barmat said:


> That was the most half assed poorly filmed/written battle between the powder puff girls and 1.5 men. The whole plot for Dorne is bringing this season to it's knees.


its.

what?

nothing.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Barmat said:


> That was the most half assed poorly filmed/written battle between the powder puff girls and 1.5 men. The whole plot for Dorne is bringing this season to it's knees.


It did seem a little cheesy, contrived, and so unoriginal that both groups were sneaking in at the exact same time, only to both find Myrcella within 30 seconds of each other.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Could have done without the horrible rape ending. So, did Littlefinger do everything up to this point in order to be ruler of Winterfell? What the hell was up with all of those heads in the tower? Is that some sort of mysterious "faceless" face bank?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

nickels said:


> Could have done without the horrible rape ending. So, did Littlefinger do everything up to this point in order to be ruler of Winterfell? What the hell was up with all of those heads in the tower? Is that some sort of mysterious "faceless" face bank?


As Littlefinger said (may not get all the words right) "the last time the Lords of Winterfell and the Eyrie fought together, they brought down the biggest dynasty this world has ever known".

I think he figures he has Sansa wrapped around his finger and that once Stannis clears the Boltons out of the way, he will get Winterfell through her.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

nickels said:


> Could have done without the horrible rape ending. So, did Littlefinger do everything up to this point in order to be ruler of Winterfell? What the hell was up with all of those heads in the tower? Is that some sort of mysterious "faceless" face bank?


Not sure why so many people have an issue with the ending. We really need it to establish the sort of husband ramsay is going to be. Honestly, he was sick and twisted, but I wasn't really sure he'd be the same way with his wife. Until this episode, did we know that girl he was hunting down back in early season 4 was his girlfriend? I just thought it was sick and twisted ramsay, toying with some poor peasant girl for his amusement...threaten to kill her, let her "escape" and then toyingly hunt her down.

Edit:
about the faces, perhaps it's the obvious, but just it case, it seems those would be all of the people that died drinking that water, and they get stored there to become alternate identities for the faceless men


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I think he figures he has Sansa wrapped around his finger and that once Stannis clears the Boltons out of the way, he will get Winterfell through her.


It was all a Very Cunning Plan. After spending some wifely time with Ramsey, Littlefinger will look awfully good by comparison!


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Nice to see Eko/Adebisi (Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje) join the cast, I was wondering how they would use him in the storyline.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

LordKronos said:


> Not sure why so many people have an issue with the ending. We really need it to establish the sort of husband ramsay is going to be.


And, as mentioned it wasn't any different from Dany's wedding night, in fact it was much less um, detailed...


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Lady Olenna is smart. I'm surprised she didn't see through it. I knew what was going to happen to Loras...I just didn't know they were going to be able to snag Margaery in it as well. But as soon as she was called to testify, I knew they were just baiting her to incriminate herself, too.


So did she.



> And WOW, if Tommen won't even raise a hand for his wife, I can totally see how this all plays out.


He hasn't "raised a hand" for anything. He's just been his mom's puppet and he's trusted her to lead him in everything. He looked to Ceresi for what to do as they led Marjorie away but OOPS.



LordKronos said:


> Not sure why so many people have an issue with the ending.


I don't have an issue with it. It was horrible and it made all my lady bits climb up into my throat but I didn't expect anything else. I HOPED Theon would snap out of it and kill the bastard but, as someone else said, this ain't no fairy tale.



Anubys said:


> I think he figures he has Sansa wrapped around his finger and that once Stannis clears the Boltons out of the way, he will get Winterfell through her.


He's going to be in for a big surprise if he thinks he's still in Sansa's good graces. She's going to take back Winterfell, for sure, but there'll be no partnering with him. Or if she does it will be a temporary and calculated move.



Anubys said:


> A lot of similarities between Sansa and Dany's wedding nights. Of course, Dany's husband just didn't know any better and turned out to be a decent guy. I have no such hope for Ramsay.


I'm curious how many think so. To me it was completely different.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Robin said:


> I'm curious how many think so. To me it was completely different.


What happened was pretty much exactly the same (new husband having sex with an unwilling bride). What was going on in the husband's head was completely different.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Robin said:


> I'm curious how many think so. To me it was completely different.


Can you clarify, both what you think was different, and what you are curious about other's throughts?

I think it was very clearly similar in that a timid girl is handed over by someone with power over her and using her as a pawn in his conquest to forge an alliance with a temporarily needed ally. After being handed over, she's married and raped on her wedding night. And not just raped, but in one of the most inhuman manners possible...bent over an object and taken like a dog.

It was different in that Drogo doesn't exactly know better. For him it was a cultural issue. He was at least gentle with her taking off her clothes, but still...she was his, and he was going to have it. With Ramsay...he knows better, but he just doesn't care.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Can you clarify, both what you think was different, and what you are curious about other's throughts?
> 
> I think it was very clearly similar in that a timid girl is handed over by someone with power over her and using her as a pawn in his conquest to forge an alliance with a temporarily needed ally. After being handed over, she's married and raped on her wedding night. And not just raped, but in one of the most inhuman manners possible...bent over an object and taken like a dog.
> 
> It was different in that Drogo doesn't exactly know better. For him it was a cultural issue. He was at least gentle with her taking off her clothes, but still...he was hers, and he was going to have it. With Ramsay...he knows better, but he just doesn't care.


You pretty much summed it up as I would have...except for the last part...

I disagree that Ramsay didn't care, this is how he gets pleasure...he cared very much about hurting her!


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Sansa has been a pretty miserable figure since day one. That wedding day sex is about the best thing to happen to her so far in the series. I keep waiting for Theon to tell her that her brothers aren't dead, or for him to snap and kill Ramsay. I feel about Ramsay how I felt about Joffrey, I'll patiently wait for his character to get killed off because it has to happen. Hopefully it will be slow and painful.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

nickels said:


> FYP: Sansa has been a pretty miserable figure since day one. That wedding day *rape* is about the best thing to happen to her so far in the series.


She was a spoiled brat, sure, but no virgin deserves that on her wedding night. She has matured and even redeemed herself in my eyes.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

In the old days, 16-18th century they preserved bodies by sealing them in barrels of booze (brandy? rum?) so Tyrion could have been preserved. By now a "cut his throat" order should be carried out before the victim can say, "WAIT!" unless that said as he gargles his own blood.

Once again duh diminutive Dinklage declares dat Dinklage's dangling dongle is not diminished, "THINK AGAIN!" _zzzzziiiiiiip_

Didn't we see that slave trader captain in Bravos when Ser. Davos went to get funding for Stannis?

Obvious: King Tommen could just order that all of the fundie army be killed, the seven gods be damned. He shouldn't tolerate The Queen being imprisoned.

Again, Cersei has no muscle. House Tyrell could crush her.

That Ramsey kid is not a nice man.

I thought that Reek was supposed to be programmed that he isn't Theon of House Greyjoy, but he can pretend.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

gossamer88 said:


> she was a spoiled brat, sure, but no virgin one deserves that on her wedding night. She has matured and even redeemed herself in my eyes.


fyp


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> fyp


Of course. No need to point that out. I was talking about what happened _specifically_ in this episode.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What happened was pretty much exactly the same (new husband having sex with an unwilling bride). What was going on in the husband's head was completely different.


That's pretty much it. To me "new husband having sex with an unwilling bride" is about 2% of it. I didn't feel like Dany's situation was much different from any arranged marriage. Sansa's situation with Tyrion was highly unusual.

Drogo was doing he thought was right. Ramsey knew he was torturing both Sansa and Theon and that's why he did it.

Mostly I'm just curious whether I'm the only one who read the comparison and thought "are you KIDDING?! They're nothing alike! *thinks a little* Ok, I guess I see where you got that but I never would have thought to compare them on my own."



LordKronos said:


> After being handed over, she's married and raped on her wedding night. And not just raped, but in one of the most inhuman manners possible...bent over an object and taken like a dog.


With Drogo/Dany there was a cultural disconnect. For whatever reason I expect rear entry is SOP for his people. Sansa and Ramsey have basically the same cultural upbringing. He was being degrading on purpose. Dany & Sansa both knew the score.

Outlander spoiler for s01e07:



Spoiler



Like Jamie not knowing how sex works between humans, thinking it'll be like horses.

I'm only up to e09 in Outlander so if you follow up on this please keep that in mind!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> Didn't we see that slave trader captain in Bravos when Ser. Davos went to get funding for Stannis?


Different actor. I do find it a little interesting that the 2 pirate captains we have seen were both black.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> That's pretty much it. To me "new husband having sex with an unwilling bride" is about 2% of it. I didn't feel like Dany's situation was much different from any arranged marriage. Sansa's situation with Tyrion was highly unusual.
> 
> Drogo was doing he thought was right. Ramsey knew he was torturing both Sansa and Theon and that's why he did it.
> 
> ...


Since I'm the one who brought it up...I think we're on the same page...when I mentioned the similarities, I didn't go deeper than the ones that were obvious...unwilling bride, rough sex from behind...pain...virgin...etc.

So when I mentioned that there were similarities, I did not mean to imply that there weren't things that were completely different. I even mentioned something along those lines in my post, IIRC...

IOW, I was pointing out some parallels but wasn't trying to diminish the differences.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What happened was pretty much exactly the same (new husband having sex with an unwilling bride). What was going on in the husband's head was completely different.





Robin said:


> That's pretty much it. To me "new husband having sex with an unwilling bride" is about 2% of it. I didn't feel like Dany's situation was much different from any arranged marriage. Sansa's situation with Tyrion was highly unusual.


Robin made the point I was waiting to make. Arranged marriages must be mostly between a man and an unwilling bride. That wedding ceremony was the gloomiest spectacle I've seen for what I associate with an otherwise happy occasion!

I really liked the arabian costumes Jamie and Bronn were wearing ... as well as everybody in their whole fight scene. I don't pay attention to that sorta' thing, but those outfits really stood out. How the girl recognized her Uncle Jamie so quickly, I don't know.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

getreal said:


> Robin made the point I was waiting to make. Arranged marriages must be mostly between a man and an unwilling bride.


I hate being put in that position...the man from the middle east defending bad practices...but that is actually not a true statement. I'm not going to quible over the definition of "mostly"...in many places, arranged marriages are how people get married and both parties have control over it (veto power, if you will).


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Oh no, I didn't mean current. I meant it a more primitive society. My impression is that today's arranged marriages tend to work better than their counterparts.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Will somebody please kill Ramsay? Frankly, I'm still surprised Reek/Theon hasn't stabbed, bludgeoned or thrown him out a window yet.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> frankly, i'm still surprised reek/theon hasn't *flayed, then stabbed, then bludgeoned, then thrown him out a window.*


fyp


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Please please please let that be a spoiler for the season finale. 

Or next week, even better.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I kept waiting....expecting.....Theon to breakdown and save Sansa. I do wonder if Sansa now has a better idea of just how beaten down and mentally broken Theon really is, now that she's had an unfortunate glimpse into her new husband's penchant for torture? Will she try to become his ally? Help him?


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> I do wonder if Sansa now has a better idea of just how beaten down and mentally broken Theon really is, now that she's had an unfortunate glimpse into her new husband's penchant for torture?


It could just as easily reinforce her hatred for Theon. She didn't see (as far as we know) Theon's face during the rape, and thus does not know his reaction.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Maybe if Sansa can't beat 'em, she'll join 'em and torture the crap out of Myranda. That girl could use some comeuppance.

Tyrion is like bacon. He makes everything better.


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## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> Maybe if Sansa can't beat 'em, she'll join 'em and torture the crap out of Myranda. That girl could use some comeuppance.
> 
> Tyrion is like bacon. He makes everything better.


Maybe Myranda isn't bad, maybe she is just hungry


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Will somebody please kill Ramsay? Frankly, I'm still surprised Reek/Theon hasn't stabbed, bludgeoned or thrown him out a window yet.





Robin said:


> Please please please let that be a spoiler for the season finale.
> 
> Or next week, even better.


On any other show, his behavior would be a spoiler that such an end is coming.

But Martin seems to hate us all so much, I wouldn't be surprised if Ramsay ends up the hero of the story...


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Ramsay can't make it much longer - he has Stannis coming to take over Winterfell, and Littlefinger waiting to conquer the winner of that battle if Ramsay happens to get lucky and survive it. I am hoping that during the battle that he gets offed by Sansa, Theon, or maybe even Brienne comes in to save the day. Either way, much like the death of Joffrey I can't wait to celebrate it!!!


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Dawghows said:


> It could just as easily reinforce her hatred for Theon. She didn't see (as far as we know) Theon's face during the rape, and thus does not know his reaction.


Yep. I think it will have driven an even greater wedge between them.

Wouldn't have thought that possible.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Robin said:


> Arya's not going to become a faceless man but she is going to get that girl's face.


I hope we don't lose Maisey if she gets a new face. 



Anubys said:


> I think he figures he has Sansa wrapped around his finger and that once Stannis clears the Boltons out of the way, he will get Winterfell through her.


I don't think Littlefinger really cares who ends up in charge--he's set to take Winterfel either way, and probably has plans in motion to take the rest of Westeros after that. Didn't he say something once about the game of thrones being played with brains and political maneuvering rather than with armies?



nickels said:


> Ramsay can't make it much longer - he has Stannis coming to take over Winterfell, and Littlefinger waiting to conquer the winner of that battle if Ramsay happens to get lucky and survive it. I am hoping that during the battle that he gets offed by Sansa, Theon, or maybe even Brienne comes in to save the day. Either way, much like the death of Joffrey I can't wait to celebrate it!!!


Actually Ramsey makes Joffrey look almost human. Sansa ain't seen nothing yet--she still has all her skin. :up:

"It will be a dwarf sized ****." 
"Guess again." LOL


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Littlefinger promised the knights of The Vale, but it doesn't seem like a lock that he can deliver on that.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Anubys said:


> its.
> 
> what?
> 
> nothing.






cheesesteak said:


> Will somebody please kill Ramsay? Frankly, I'm still surprised Reek/Theon hasn't stabbed, bludgeoned or thrown him out a window yet.


I think Sansa is more likely to kill him than Reek. And hopefully, she's smart enough to wait for the right time.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> On any other show, his behavior would be a spoiler that such an end is coming.
> 
> But Martin seems to hate us all so much, I wouldn't be surprised if Ramsay ends up the hero of the story...


----------



## Arcy (Apr 28, 2003)

tlc said:


> I think Sansa is more likely to kill him than Reek.


I hope so. I wouldn't object to Reek being her tool.

Is it overwhelming optimism that I'm also looking forward to Sansa taking down Littlefinger?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Robin said:


> He's going to be in for a big surprise if he thinks he's still in Sansa's good graces. She's going to take back Winterfell, for sure, but there'll be no partnering with him. Or if she does it will be a temporary and calculated move.


I'm leaning toward thinking that Baelish honestly doesn't know how bad Ramsay really is.
They did make a point of having him say that he didn't know much about Ramsay.

Poor Sansa. She's been betrothed to three men. Two of them were absolute monsters and the one who looked like a monster was the kindest one of all to her.



getreal said:


> I really liked the arabian costumes Jamie and Bronn were wearing ... as well as everybody in their whole fight scene. I don't pay attention to that sorta' thing, but those outfits really stood out. How the girl recognized her Uncle Jamie so quickly, I don't know.


Because he's her father.



heySkippy said:


> Littlefinger promised the knights of The Vale, but it doesn't seem like a lock that he can deliver on that.


Since Baelish is step-father to the underage and weak willed Robin, I'd think he can deliver.

I'm not sure who's the bigger idiot, Loras for not using the "of course my Squire has seen me bathe" line or Cersei for thinking none of this will end badly.

Is it me or is the Sand sisters motivation for revenge on the weak side?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JYoung said:


> Poor Sansa. She's been betrothed to three men. Two of them were absolute monsters and the one who looked like a monster was the kindest one of all to her.


Sansa chose Joffrey, so she is at least partly to blame there. She did not choose Tyrion, but he was the kindest, as you said. Sansa also did not tell Littlefinger no when he suggested she marry Ramsay. Maybe she thought she had no choice, but she could have at least tried to object.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Sansa had plenty of choices, but she is a weak / meek person so far in the series with few redeeming qualities but for her name. I'm hoping she finds her backbone soon...


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Because King Robert's decision had nothing to do with it?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JYoung said:


> Because King Robert's decision had nothing to do with it?


Sansa was happy to marry Joffrey when the opportunity was first presented to her, and even once she got to know him somewhat. It was only later -- when his true character became so obvious that even Sansa could not fail to notice his cruelty -- that she no longer wished to marry him.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

getreal said:


> I really liked the arabian costumes Jamie and Bronn were wearing ... as well as everybody in their whole fight scene. I don't pay attention to that sorta' thing, but those outfits really stood out. How the girl recognized her Uncle Jamie so quickly, I don't know.


Because he removed his mask and she saw his face. I'm not sure why she wouldn't recognize him.



heySkippy said:


> Littlefinger promised the knights of The Vale, but it doesn't seem like a lock that he can deliver on that.


I wonder if that was just what he was telling Cersei because his plan requires her to think he's leading an army to take Winterfell. For all we know, he only needed the royal decree that Cersei promised to provide, and he won't be leading anyone from The Vale.

I also liked his response to Brother Lancel: "We both peddle fantasies, Brother Lancel. Mine just happen to be entertaining."


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Well, I was hoping the title might be referring to Reek/Theon. Oh well. What with Outlander, I've seen way too much rape on TV. I've hated the Bolton character for a long time. I sure wish someone would kill him already. 

I wonder how Jamie's capture will play out.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

JYoung said:


> I'm leaning toward thinking that Baelish honestly doesn't know how bad Ramsay really is.
> They did make a point of having him say that he didn't know much about Ramsay.
> ...
> Because he's her father.


A) when he delivered that line I thought he did know plenty about Ramsay but knew that would make it suspect that he wanted Sansa to marry him. But maybe you're right.

B) but she doesn't know that, right? He's her "uncle Jamie".


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm surprised Ramsay did have sex with Myranda and make Sansa watch. Maybe that's next episode.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Well, I was hoping the title might be referring to Reek/Theon.


FYI: "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" is the motto of House Martell


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> I don't think Littlefinger really cares who ends up in charge--he's set to take Winterfel either way, and probably has plans in motion to take the rest of Westeros after that. Didn't he say something once about the game of thrones being played with brains and political maneuvering rather than with armies?


But, as the Boltons will atest, it's much easier to get the Lords of the North to back you if you are married to a Stark. This is why Sansa is valuable.

"uh...you can smell the S*** from 5 miles away". I love Lady Olena!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm surprised Ramsay did have sex with Myranda and make Sansa watch. Maybe that's next episode.


Watch. or Join.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> "It will be a dwarf sized ****."
> "Guess again." LOL


That was great! :up:

I'd like to see Reek snap and stab Ramsey, and then Sansa to stab him again while he's dying.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Robin said:


> B) but she doesn't know that, right? He's her "uncle Jamie".


I think she had already been shipped off to Dorne before the incest allegations became well known in King's Landing. I agree that to her, he is no more than her Uncle Jamie.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm surprised Ramsay did have sex with Myranda and make Sansa watch. Maybe that's next episode.


I don't think she would have minded that nearly as much as she minded having to be a participant. Having Theon watch just added to her humiliation and also served to remind "Reek" (gawd, I hate that name!) who was in control. It was a win/win in Ramsay's mind.

I cannot remember now...does Sansa think Arya is dead?


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I think the show is doing a great job contrasting the different ruling styles.

Joffery - Crazy. But Strong. He'd have had Margery's brother out at the expense of the Sparrow's head even if it took the entire guard to do it. Makes you wish he was back a little. 

Tommen - He's the epitome of a weak king. He's paralyzed by indecision to the point that he isn't getting anything done. 

Dany - She's making all sorts of bad choices, even in the previous episode promising to marry a local lord. That's stupid and very short sighted considering she wants to rule Westeros. I suspect he'll be killed soon. Otherwise Dany seems like a good and just ruler. She wants to do the right thing and isn't afraid to make the hard choices. She's just making the wrong ones. She needs Tyrion badly. 

Stannis - He's blinded by the red woman and is her puppet. Given that the blacksmith is unknown and the incest of Cersi and Jaime is known he does have the best claim to the throne, I just wonder what he will do if the blacksmith is revealed to him. If Dany returns he's certainly going to ally with whoever is around. 

That Dornish Ruler, what's his name - This guy seems to rule well and his people respect him. A guy that can rule from a wheel chair has got to be loved by his people and those around him. 

Lot of bit rulers as well. Balish, Highgarden, Ramsey, etc. Balish is still the slimy dude he was in season 1, the Highgarden Queen is the wildcard I think. Ramsey is just bat **** nuts.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Robin said:


> A) when he delivered that line I thought he did know plenty about Ramsay but knew that would make it suspect that he wanted Sansa to marry him. But maybe you're right.
> 
> B) but she doesn't know that, right? He's her "uncle Jamie".


And what did Bronn say when he was asking why Jaime went to Dorne? "You have the most famous face in all of Westeros" or something like that?

Even though he's Uncle Jaime, he's the best fighter in all the realm, he's the Kingslayer, he's been around pretty much every day of her life (prior to the War of the Five Kings anyway) and she knows him well.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> Even though he's Uncle Jaime, he's the best fighter in all the realm, he's the Kingslayer, he's been around pretty much every day of her life (prior to the War of the Five Kings anyway) and she knows him well.


Plus, until fairly recently he and Mommy Dearest were inseparable.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> Stannis - He's blinded by the red woman and is her puppet. Given that the blacksmith is unknown and the incest of Cersi and Jaime is known he does have the best claim to the throne, I just wonder what he will do if the blacksmith is revealed to him.


Stannis knows about Gendry. He even tried to get his blood by killing him but Davos stopped him (and they used the leeches instead).


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Stannis knows about Gendry. He even tried to get his blood by killing him but Davos stopped him (and they used the leeches instead).


That's right. He put the red woman on him. I had forgotten. What became of him?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> I don't think she would have minded that nearly as much as she minded having to be a participant. Having Theon watch just added to her humiliation and also served to remind "Reek" (gawd, I hate that name!) who was in control. It was a win/win in Ramsay's mind.


Absolutely. (And that's why I'll only call him Theon.)

She wouldn't have cared about watching him with Myranda.

I'd like to say that raping her in front of someone she grew up with as a brother is the worst thing he could do to her but that would show a lack of imagination.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> That's right. He put the red woman on him. I had forgotten. What became of him?


He got on a boat, had some bread and water and a 3-day row to King's Landing. He doesn't know how to swim and had never been on a boat. We have no idea what happened to him after that.



Robin said:


> I'd like to say that raping her in front of someone she grew up with as a brother is the worst thing he could do to her but that would show a lack of imagination.


let's not tempt fate and call for more imaginative ways for Ramsay to rape and humiliate Sansa further!


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> let's not tempt fate and call for more imaginative ways for Ramsay to rape and humiliate Sansa further!


We've already seen him flay Theon and cut off various body parts, as well as treating him like a dog (literally). What he did to Sansa so far is mild by comparison.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

I will not say what, but in the wiki it states that in the book


Spoiler



(I know I know) that the acts Ramsay does on his wedding night would be impossible to show on TV. So, let's just say we the viewers got off easy that they went with just the rape scene.



Hidden due to mentioning the books, but I don't spoil anything.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Stannis - He's blinded by the red woman and is her puppet. Given that the blacksmith is unknown and the incest of Cersi and Jaime is known he does have the best claim to the throne, I just wonder what he will do if the blacksmith is revealed to him.


The blacksmith is a bastard. He has no claim on the throne. Zero.

In Westeros, bastards are often acknowledged, such as Ramsay or Jon, but not always (such as Gendry). But they are never given any of the rights of a true-born descendant. They have to be made "legit" by decree of a king before they can move up the social ladder. Such as Ramsay.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

astrohip said:


> The blacksmith is a bastard. He has no claim on the throne. Zero.
> 
> In Westeros, bastards are often acknowledged, such as Ramsay or Jon, but not always (such as Gendry). But they are never given any of the rights of a true-born descendant. They have to be made "legit" by decree of a king before they can move up the social ladder. Such as Ramsay.


I was also going to post that but then thought better of it. Joffrey certainly had an issue with Robert's bastards as he ordered all of them killed. If not to challenge his legitimacy, why then?

ok...other than he's just a dick and was pissed at the rumors about himself being a product of incest and not really the son of Robert.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I was also going to post that but then thought better of it. Joffrey certainly had an issue with Robert's bastards as he ordered all of them killed. If not to challenge his legitimacy, why then?
> 
> ok...other than he's just a dick and was pissed at the rumors about himself being a product of incest and not really the son of Robert.


I truely think Joffrey believed the "rumors". He was pretty smart. Robert's bastards could help prove that Joffrey was not born of Robert's linage. (Ned found a reference to all Baratheon children having dark hair.)


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

astrohip said:


> The blacksmith is a bastard. He has no claim on the throne. Zero.
> 
> In Westeros, bastards are often acknowledged, such as Ramsay or Jon, but not always (such as Gendry). But they are never given any of the rights of a true-born descendant. They have to be made "legit" by decree of a king before they can move up the social ladder. Such as Ramsay.


I don't think that's accurate. Succession in Westeros appears to be:

Children
Bastard Children
Grandchildren*
Siblings
Nieces and Nephews

or whoever has the most dragons...

*Not certain about that, just extrapolating from being a direct descendent.

The biggest issue I think is that Baratheon was a one off and hadn't fully established his line, thus the chaos after his death.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

It's been made pretty clear that bastard children have no claim at all.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> I don't think that's accurate. Succession in Westeros appears to be:
> 
> Children
> Bastard Children
> ...


No.


heySkippy said:


> It's been made pretty clear that bastard children have no claim at all.


Yes.

The succession is male line primogeniture. So the eldest son comes first, then his sons, his sons' sons, etc. When you run out, then it's the old king's younger brother, then his sons, etc. If you run out of male descendents altogether, you go back up the family tree until you hit boy, then back down that line. Repeat as necessary.

But bastards need not apply.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> ...


So that whole Bastard hunt was a red herring?

It looks like it isn't so clear cut.



Spoiler



The role of legitimised bastards throughout the Seven Kingdoms is also unclear i.e. whether they follow trueborn children, or join the line of succession in order of birth as if they had been trueborn all along.[7] Unlegitimised bastards have no legal claim.

In this case the legitimization of Gendry may have been part of someones plan at some point, thus the hunt.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> So that whole Bastard hunt was a red herring?


I think that was just Cersei being either vindictive (she hated Robert, and wanted to wipe his progeny from the face of the Earth) or stupid (she honestly believed they could be what Ned meant by "heirs" instead of Stannis and Renly).


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think that was just Cersei being either vindictive (she hated Robert, and wanted to wipe his progeny from the face of the Earth) or stupid (she honestly believed they could be what Ned meant by "heirs" instead of Stannis and Renly).


Cersei admited that even she was surprised at how big a monster Joffrey was when she found out about the killings.

Now, Cersei could very well be a liar (I know...everyone is shocked by this), but she would not make her own son look bad like that to cover up something she would probably have done anyway.

long story short, I think it was Joffrey who ordered the killings, not Cersei.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I just want to add that maybe in the books it's clear that Cersei did it (I would not know) but, as far as the show is concerned, it's more likely than not that it was Joffrey, not Cersei that did it.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> So that whole Bastard hunt was a red herring?


My take was it was purely to destroy evidence of what Robert's true-born children look like.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> So that whole Bastard hunt was a red herring?





Spoiler



One of the few poor choices the show has made was to have Joffrey be behind the bastard hunt, instead of Cersei, as it was in the books.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Come on, man...you know the rules...


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Fair enough. I didn't really consider something that took place 3 seasons ago on the show worthy of a spoiler tag, but you're probably right.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Fair enough. I didn't really consider something that took place 3 seasons ago on the show worthy of a spoiler tag, but you're probably right.


Someone might complain or stop coming to the thread.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Fair enough. I didn't really consider something that took place 3 seasons ago on the show worthy of a spoiler tag, but you're probably right.




I actually consider it a book spoiler...I'm looking forward to reading the books when the show is over (and the final 2 books are written) and discovering all the differences between the show and the books!


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I actually consider it a book spoiler...I'm looking forward to reading the books when the show is over (and the final 2 books are written) and discovering all the differences between the show and the books!


Not a spoiler, but I wasn't able to make it past the second book. I found the pacing too tedious as the books tend to focus on uninteresting characters too often. One thing about the show I like is that the timeline has been straightened out so you don't have to jump to the 4th book to find out out what happened to someone in the 2nd books timeline. (Just an example)

I did however enjoy the first two.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> ...


For the most part, yes, but females work in there somehow, too. That's why Sansa is considered the heir to winterfell, rather than one of her cousins. Benjen is the only one of Ned's siblings that might possibly still be alive (we never did get any closure on his disappearance, did we?). On the assumption he's dead, I'm not sure how far back the family tree we'd need to trace to find a branch with a living male heir (if we believed that Bran and Rikkon are dead, of course).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> For the most part, yes, but females work in there somehow, too. That's why Sansa is considered the heir to winterfell, rather than one of her cousins. Benjen is the only one of Ned's siblings that might possibly still be alive (we never did get any closure on his disappearance, did we?). On the assumption he's dead, I'm not sure how far back the family tree we'd need to trace to find a branch with a living male heir (if we believed that Bran and Rikkon are dead, of course).


She's the heir to a lordship, not a kingdom (Robb notwithstanding). Rules tend to be laxer, allowing succession through (but not by) women. So Sansa's husband could be Lord of the North, as could her sons, but she will never be.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Benjen is currently North of the wall and missing. His horse came back alone, and his men were found dead. They turned into wights at Castle Black. Hey, maybe we'll see Benjen next week! I doubt that we are done with his character just yet.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> For the most part, yes, but females work in there somehow, too. That's why Sansa is considered the heir to winterfell, rather than one of her cousins. Benjen is the only one of Ned's siblings that might possibly still be alive (we never did get any closure on his disappearance, did we?). On the assumption he's dead, I'm not sure how far back the family tree we'd need to trace to find a branch with a living male heir (if we believed that Bran and Rikkon are dead, of course).


Sansa is in there insofar as she would be the mother of the next boy who would be the Lord when he comes of age.

IOW, one of her eggs is the next Lord of Winterfell.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

nickels said:


> Benjen is currently North of the wall and missing. His horse came back alone, and his men were found dead. They turned into wights at Castle Black. Hey, maybe we'll see Benjen next week! I doubt that we are done with his character just yet.


And that was my point...his fate is a mystery. I was just "assuming" he was dead for the sake of figuring bloodlines. But now that I think of it, we don't even need to assume. Even if he's alive, he's taken The Black and thus given up any claim he would have, and as far as I recall he has no children.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Seems we are down one viewer / Senator


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/600636817239605249
Apparently the prior rape scenes were ok, castration fine, incest okeedokee, head crushing squishyness not a problem, but this last episode where nothing graphic was even shown is what did it for her. Perhaps she was on the fence and this was the final straw, but I have to wonder why she didn't protest with the plethora of other scenes (plus many I likely didn't even mention!)


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> ..I'm looking forward to reading the books when the show is over (and the final 2 books are written) !


I hope men in your family live long and keep their eyesight.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Interesting.

Due to the Sansa/Ramsey scene, the blog "The Mary Sue" has announced they will no longer report on "Game of Thrones" or support it in any way, and Senator Claire McCaskill reports she will no longer watch the show.

People aren't going to get Disney in a George R R Martin book, but I wonder how effective this backlash will be? Or will it invoke the Streisand Effect and simply make the shore more notable?


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Well, at least the actress playing Sansa said she loved filming it...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Well, at least the actress playing Sansa said she loved filming it...


Why not? She was off-camera.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> For the most part, yes, but females work in there somehow, too. That's why Sansa is considered the heir to winterfell, rather than one of her cousins. Benjen is the only one of Ned's siblings that might possibly still be alive (we never did get any closure on his disappearance, did we?). On the assumption he's dead, I'm not sure how far back the family tree we'd need to trace to find a branch with a living male heir (if we believed that Bran and Rikkon are dead, of course).


I posted this upstream but it seemed to get lost since it was in an edit.



Spoiler



The role of legitimised bastards throughout the Seven Kingdoms is also unclear i.e. whether they follow trueborn children, or join the line of succession in order of birth as if they had been trueborn all along.[7] Unlegitimised bastards have no legal claim.

In this case the legitimization of Gendry may have been part of someones plan at some point, thus the hunt.

I think Ned was going to legitimize him.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

pjenkins said:


> Seems we are down one viewer / Senator
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/600636817239605249
> Apparently the prior rape scenes were ok, castration fine, incest okeedokee, head crushing squishyness not a problem, but this last episode where nothing graphic was even shown is what did it for her. Perhaps she was on the fence and this was the final straw, but I have to wonder why she didn't protest with the plethora of other scenes (plus many I likely didn't even mention!)


She needs a dictionary to look up "gratuitous".

It nauseated me but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have been there.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Due to the Sansa/Ramsey scene, the blog "The Mary Sue" has announced they will no longer report on "Game of Thrones" or support it in any way, and Senator Claire McCaskill reports she will no longer watch the show.
> 
> People aren't going to get Disney in a George R R Martin book, but I wonder how effective this backlash will be? Or will it invoke the Streisand Effect and simply make the shore more notable?


I can't say I was thrilled with the scene, but for this show, it's not a big surprise. Much as I like GoT, it's not for everyone.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> the role of legitimised bastards throughout the Seven Kingdoms is also unclear i.e. whether they follow trueborn children, or join the line of succession in order of birth as if they had been trueborn all along.[7] Unlegitimised bastards have no legal claim.
> 
> In this case the legitimization of Gendry may have been part of someones plan at some point, thus the hunt.
> 
> I think Ned was going to legitimize him.


[I'm going to unspoiler to discuss, I can't see anything remotely spoiler-ish.]

While I think the general gist is correct (we've already said legitimized bastards are legit heirs), I think the idea someone was going to "legitimize" Gendry is not accurate. We never got a hint of it, and I'm not sure that would have served anyone's game. Ned only wanted to find him to see for himself the "Baratheon look", and then only wanted to save him once he realized someone was killing off all of the King's bastards.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, Ned was very clear that in his mind Stannis was Robert's heir, not Joffrey. Gendry would never have entered into it.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, Ned was very clear that in his mind Stannis was Robert's heir, not Joffrey. Gendry would never have entered into it.


Yep, that's why Ned made those "subtle" changes when Robert was dictating his "will".


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Robin said:


> She needs a dictionary to look up "gratuitous".
> 
> It nauseated me but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have been there.


The Mary Sue's complaint seems to be that the scene isn't there for Sansas character development, but rather for Theons. Degrading a woman to advance a male plot line seems to be what crossed the line for them. Given that's their specific wheel house, at least it's consistent.

Given what we know of Ramsey, I wouldn't have expected anything less of him. He's a malicious human being who delights in the torture and humiliation of others. He's shown no evidence of any bit of kindness, though he has been shown to use kindness only to set up an even crueler fall.

If the complaint is that we don't need to see this because we know what kind of a man Ramsey is, I can almost sympathize with that point, but it does serve to cement that in the viewers mind, that he has not one redeemable quality, and given we were all leading to hate Theon just a few seasons ago, the idea that Theon might have a redeeming quality is now in sharp contrast to Ramsey.

I certainly don't think it was gratuitous. Unpleasant, yes, absolutely.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And of course before we make that determination, we have to see where it takes Sansa...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> We've already seen him flay Theon and cut off various body parts, as well as treating him like a dog (literally). What he did to Sansa so far is mild by comparison.


When did Ramsay flay Theon? Last we saw, Theon still had all his skin.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And of course before we make that determination, we have to see where it takes Sansa...


That was a lot more succinct than the reply I was composing.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> When did Ramsay flay Theon? Last we saw, Theon still had all his skin.


Except for that bunch of skin that was sent to his father.

Then again, considering the Bolton sigil, Ramsay flaying anyone shouldn't be a surprise.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm curious though.

Given what they've already shown us about Ramsay, was there anyone who thought that:

A). Ramsay wouldn't have touched Sansa on their wedding night.
B). Ramsay would have had sex with her tenderly, lovingly, and respectfully?

And did they have the same concerns/outrage when it was Daenerys and Drogo's wedding night?
(I don't know, I started watching a couple of seasons later.)


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Ereth said:


> The Mary Sue's complaint seems to be that the scene isn't there for Sansas character development, but rather for Theons. Degrading a woman to advance a male plot line seems to be what crossed the line for them. Given that's their specific wheel house, at least it's consistent.
> 
> Given what we know of Ramsey, I wouldn't have expected anything less of him. He's a malicious human being who delights in the torture and humiliation of others. He's shown no evidence of any bit of kindness, though he has been shown to use kindness only to set up an even crueler fall.
> 
> ...





Rob Helmerichs said:


> And of course before we make that determination, we have to see where it takes Sansa...


You guys have hit on my 2 main problems with the criticism I've seen over the past day or so (not here, but the comments section on Sepinwall's review and others are pretty harsh).

1) Ramsay is a monster. Full stop. For the wedding night to have gone basically any other way would go against everything we've come to know about that character. I knew it had to be coming. I was dreading it. I was hoping against hope that when Sansa was messing with her sleeve that she had a dagger sheathed there that she was going to jab into his eyeball. And yes, that scene made me entirely uncomfortable. The show has never shied away from showing atrocities before, and again, while it was certainly unpleasant, it doesn't even crack the top 10 worst things that have been depicted/alluded to.

2) As Rob said, we don't know where this is going yet, so calling it gratuitous now is entirely premature. We don't know if this is going to be the catalyst for Sansa becoming an entirely different person, or for Theon to find himself and throw off the shackles of being tortured by Ramsay and striking back.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> When did Ramsay flay Theon? Last we saw, Theon still had all his skin.


It was back when he tied him up and tortured him. And Theon does not have all his skin. He is obviously missing the skin from the cut-off body parts. Some of his fingers and toes were flayed before being cut off.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I'm curious though.
> 
> Given what they've already shown us about Ramsay, was there anyone who thought that:
> 
> ...


But, but but, Ramsey _promised_ Littlefinger that he wouldn't hurt Sansa.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> It was back when he tied him up and tortured him. And Theon does not have all his skin. He is obviously missing the skin from the cut-off body parts. Some of his fingers and toes were flayed before being cut off.


We know that Ramsay cut off Theon's penis. Do we know about any other body parts that were removed or any skin that was peeled off?


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> We know that Ramsay cut off Theon's penis. Do we know about any other body parts that were removed or any skin that was peeled off?


Yes they showed / mentioned that often in past episodes


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I'm pretty sure he started with a finger. I remember that scene, but maybe I'm imagining it. That was well before the removal of Theons favorite toy.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

JYoung said:


> I'm curious though.
> 
> Given what they've already shown us about Ramsay, was there anyone who thought that:
> 
> ...


No, no, and no.

Drogo was ignorant. Ramsey set out to torture her.

Not that I enjoyed the scene with Dany's wedding night. Just that I didn't have the same visceral reaction.

Plus it went down about as you'd expect. With Sansa it was an edge of the seat "what has he come up with?"


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

In that final scene, I said to Mrs. S. "Which of the two is going to kill him?". 

So .


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Upon the second watching, I have 2 observations: 

1. The Sand Snakes were even more pathetic than I remembered.

2. The rape scene could have been a lot worse. It's all pretty much left to the imagination. Even the sounds made as the camera panned on Theon were pretty tame (and if you didn't know it was rape, could be taken as normal sex sounds). So I think they did a good job of moving the story along that path with a minimum of "gore".

And, even watching a second time, I still hoped Sansa was taking a dagger out of her sleeve!


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I think Sansa has to wait at least until Roose leaves before making any sort of stand. Killing Ramsay while Roose and his knights are still there is asking for a slow and painful death. And, Roose is not leaving until after Stannis is dealt with I would imagine.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

madscientist said:


> And, Roose is not leaving until after Stannis is dealt with I would imagine.


Assuming, of course, that it is Stannis and not Roose who is dealt with...


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Robin said:


> Plus it went down about as you'd expect. With Sansa it was an edge of the seat "what has he come up with?"


Pun intended?


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Robin said:


> Drogo was ignorant. Ramsey set out to torture her.
> 
> Not that I enjoyed the scene with Dany's wedding night. Just that I didn't have the same visceral reaction.


Not arguing, just curious. Did you know Drogo was ignorant at the time of the scene? Could the facts that he's a masculine hunk or turned out to be a good guy _later_ be making the scene less offensive in hindsight? What if he was weasel-y looking and discarded Dany in the desert the next episode?


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## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

Robin said:


> Drogo was ignorant. Ramsey set out to torture her.


In hindsight, I agree.

From the viewpoint of the women at the time the events happened, I see them as almost identical (as we were shown them on TV - Ramsey could have done far worse that we weren't shown). Both married off and "taken" in almost identical fashion.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Robin said:


> Drogo was ignorant. Ramsey set out to torture her.
> 
> Not that I enjoyed the scene with Dany's wedding night. Just that I didn't have the same visceral reaction.


So the intent of the rapist factors into your reaction? I find that kind of shocking, from the women's standpoint it was the exact same thing.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> So the intent of the rapist factors into your reaction? I find that kind of shocking, from the women's standpoint it was the exact same thing.


Drogo wasn't a rapist. He was having sex with his wife. He didn't know how to have sex except that way. He wasn't trying to hurt her...he had sex with her the way a horse has sex.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Anubys said:


> Drogo wasn't a rapist. He was having sex with his wife. He didn't know how to have sex except that way. He wasn't trying to hurt her...he had sex with her the way a horse has sex.


Of course he was, he took her against her will.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> Of course he was, he took her against her will.


he did? I recall the sex being rough but not against her will.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Drogo wasn't a rapist. He was having sex with his wife. He didn't know how to have sex except that way. He wasn't trying to hurt her...he had sex with her the way a horse has sex.





pjenkins said:


> Of course he was, he took her against her will.


He didn't realize that "neigh" means "neigh".


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

allan said:


> He didn't realize that "neigh" means "neigh".


LOL! :up:

All I remember was not being disturbed by their first night as opposed to Ramsay/Sansa's first night.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

tlc said:


> Not arguing, just curious. Did you know Drogo was ignorant at the time of the scene? Could the facts that he's a masculine hunk or turned out to be a good guy later be making the scene less offensive in hindsight? What if he was weasel-y looking and discarded Dany in the desert the next episode?


I honestly don't remember. I just know that I wasn't horrified by the scene in the way I was in this episode.

How much did we know about Drogo at that point? ISTR he was something if a blank slate to the viewer whereas we know more than we want to about Ramsey.



pjenkins said:


> So the intent of the rapist factors into your reaction? I find that kind of shocking, from the women's standpoint it was the exact same thing.


Was Dany's brother there watching?

And yes, intent does matter. That's why we have multiple degrees of murder, rape, etc. Both are bad. One is worse.



pjenkins said:


> Of course he was, he took her against her will.


Did he know that? I'm honestly asking, I don't remember the details of the scene (and rewatching it right now with my kids seems unwise.)

She was his wife, it was their wedding night. They didn't share a language. Did she say "no" in a way he heard and would understand?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I just don't think it was rape.

She married "kind-of" against her will, in the sense that she did it because her brother ordered her to. But it was an arranged marriage and she agreed to it because it was good for the family.

Was she scared? she was a teen...virgin...about to have sex with Drogo...who wouldn't be scared? even if she was looking forward to having sex, she should've still been scared! 

As for him? I think we've discussed his state of mind. His wife. Wedding night. She's hot. He went for it. he didn't know any better.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Anubys said:


> I just don't think it was rape.
> 
> She married "kind-of" against her will, in the sense that she did it because her brother ordered her to. But it was an arranged marriage and she agreed to it because it was good for the family.
> 
> ...


All those things apply to Sansa. She was not forced to marry Ramsey.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> All those things apply to Sansa. She was not forced to marry Ramsey.


Sure. But Ramsay raped Sansa. I don't know how to convince you. :shrug:


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Sure. But Ramsay raped Sansa. I don't know how to convince you. :shrug:


but I'll try! 

Ramsay knew better. We know he knew better. He did it this way because he wanted to hurt her.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> but I'll try!
> 
> Ramsay knew better. We know he knew better. He did it this way because he wanted to hurt her.


Exactly.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Anubys said:


> Sure. But Ramsay raped Sansa. I don't know how to convince you. :shrug:


As did Drago. I don't know how to convince you. :shrug:


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

The two scenes are less ambiguous in the books. Drogos wedding night was more gentle, while Ramsay's was even more cruel. (I think I can say that without spoilers, if you disagree, say so and I'll edit the post). I believe that the debate over Drogos wedding night was due to how they had to cut it to fit television (and for time), and was not intended to be as similar to Ramsays as it may have turned out on casual viewing. 

Sometimes things don't come across exactly as the creators intended. I think Drogos wedding night is one of those.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I can appreciate that, but only to a certain extent. Much like the Jaime/Cersei rape scene that the producers didn't think was a rape, we can/should only go by what we see on the show.

In my view, the show did a good job of showing us Drogo/Dany as a terrible wedding night for Dany but gave us enough nuance there to make a significant distinction between it and Ramsay/Sansa's wedding night (despite the similarities).


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Ereth said:


> The two scenes are less ambiguous in the books.


Here we go again........


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I can appreciate that, but only to a certain extent. Much like the Jaime/Cersei rape scene that the producers didn't think was a rape, we can/should only go by what we see on the show.
> 
> In my view, the show did a good job of showing us Drogo/Dany as a terrible wedding night for Dany but gave us enough nuance there to make a significant distinction between it and Ramsay/Sansa's wedding night (despite the similarities).


Yep. I can see how they could look similar "on paper".

I don't see how anyone could watch the show and think they were similar.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

but in the books



Spoiler



Ramsey/Sansa doesn't happen at all


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

In Westeros, I don't believe Ramsey raped Sansa. I don't think that concept is even possible between a man and a wife in their world. She is his property and he can treat her as he wishes. Terrible yes, rape... to us "HELL YEAH" but not to them.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I can appreciate that, but only to a certain extent. Much like the Jaime/Cersei rape scene that the producers didn't think was a rape, we can/should only go by what we see on the show.
> 
> In my view, the show did a good job of showing us Drogo/Dany as a terrible wedding night for Dany but gave us enough nuance there to make a significant distinction between it and Ramsay/Sansa's wedding night (despite the similarities).


To me, the main difference wasn't the scenes, but the whole picture. Drogo never seemed cruel, and other than the scene, treated Dany well. Ramsay has shown extreme cruelty, and though what was shown wasn't that bad (relative to Drogo), I was imagining worse, based on Ramsay's known cruelty.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> but I'll try!
> 
> *Ramsay knew better. We know he knew better.* He did it this way because he wanted to hurt her.


^^This. The fact that he added Theon watching into the mix was further proof that his intent was to humiliate and hurt Sansa. Very much different than with Drogo and Dany.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I would argue that Ramsay DOESN'T know better.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

nickels said:


> In Westeros, I don't believe Ramsey raped Sansa. I don't think that concept is even possible between a man and a wife in their world. She is his property and he can treat her as he wishes. Terrible yes, rape... to us "HELL YEAH" but not to them.


I agree. I actually hesitated over calling it "rape" but decided that since in our world it is it was sufficiently descriptive.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

As was mentioned she was now his wife and as such, in that world, was considered to be his property. I'm sure some small part of her hoped that he would be as much of a gentleman as Tyrion was and that he would let her be, but she realized fairly early on that was not to be. 

I think Sansa had resigned herself to her fate and just endured it the best she could, much like Dany. 
The difference is that her new husband went out of his way to assure that it was a horrible and terrorizing experience.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> As was mentioned she was now his wife and as such, in that world, was considered to be his property. I'm sure some small part of her hoped that he would be as much of a gentleman as Tyrion was and that he would let her be, but she realized fairly early on that was not to be.
> 
> I think Sansa had resigned herself to her fate and just endured it the best she could, much like Dany.
> The difference is that her new husband went out of his way to assure that it was a horrible and terrorizing experience.


Exactly this. She knew the score when she told Baelish she expects she would be married upon his return. The way she said that implied she knew what was in the near future.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Curious what some think of this take on the scene.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...ecessary_and_sansa_deserves.html?wpsrc=fol_tw


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

cherry ghost said:


> Curious what some think of this take on the scene.
> 
> http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...ecessary_and_sansa_deserves.html?wpsrc=fol_tw


I disagree with their belief that Sansa was somehow starting to become a "strong female character" in Kings Landing through "the art of making astute political decisions and valuable connections." She had little to zero influence as to what happened to her in Kings Landing.

We can *hope* that Sansa has learned and is going to start being a strong female character, but she's not even close to that just yet, she is still doing what others want her to do and rarely has a thought of her own from what I see on handling situations.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> I disagree with their belief that Sansa was somehow starting to become a "strong female character" in Kings Landing through "the art of making astute political decisions and valuable connections." She had little to zero influence as to what happened to her in Kings Landing.
> 
> We can *hope* that Sansa has learned and is going to start being a strong female character, but she's not even close to that just yet, she is still doing what others want her to do and rarely has a thought of her own from what I see on handling situations.


I agree. Once we see her take control of a situation and drive the dialog then we'll know she's developed into a strong character. Currently she's just surviving until she can get the upper hand.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> I disagree with their belief that Sansa was somehow starting to become a "strong female character" in Kings Landing through "the art of making astute political decisions and valuable connections." She had little to zero influence as to what happened to her in Kings Landing.
> 
> We can *hope* that Sansa has learned and is going to start being a strong female character, but she's not even close to that just yet, she is still doing what others want her to do and rarely has a thought of her own from what I see on handling situations.


I predict that is coming and probably quite soon.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> Exactly this. She knew the score when she told Baelish she expects she would be married upon his return. The way she said that implied she knew what was in the near future.


Yep. She knew it would be bad, she just didn't know the full extent.



pjenkins said:


> I disagree with their belief that Sansa was somehow starting to become a "strong female character" in Kings Landing through "the art of making astute political decisions and valuable connections." She had little to zero influence as to what happened to her in Kings Landing.


The article said she was learning the art, not practicing it. I think that's accurate.

Also that she's on the part to becoming a strong female character and it's a different path than Arya's. I'd say that's accurate.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I watched the pilot while my kids were napping.

My opinion is unchanged. Dany's wedding night was bad, no doubt. But Sansa's was horrible.

Interesting that a couple of people have mentioned "from behind" as a degrading way to have sex. Ceresi didn't seem to think so.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Robin said:


> I honestly don't remember. I just know that I wasn't horrified by the scene in the way I was in this episode.
> 
> How much did we know about Drogo at that point? ISTR he was something if a blank slate to the viewer whereas we know more than we want to about Ramsey.


That's a fair point.
Buuuutttt....... we did see how Daenerys was treated like property and essentially sold off by her own brother who seemed to get a sick pleasure out of it.

You're correct in that we didn't know as much about Drogo as we did about Ramsay but what we did know didn't look great at first.

Drogo seemed to be an utter brute at first with little to no regard to Daenerys as a person.
And it's really hard to say that Daenerys wanted to have sex with him.
She knew she had to but if she had a choice, do you think she really would have said "Yes" that first night?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Of course not.

You reminded me of another point I wanted to make: her brother is such a monster that Drogo looks like a prize in comparison.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

But did Ramsey rape her? I don't recall her saying No, how did she not expect him to Consummate the marriage?

Heck even in some states in the US, Marital Rape wasn't even a crime until 1993
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_(United_States_law)

Anyhow that doesn't make Ramsey any less of a horrible person, or the whole thing any less apprpriate.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> But did Ramsey rape her? I don't recall her saying No, how did she not expect him to Consummate the marriage?
> 
> Heck even in some states in the US, Marital Rape wasn't even a crime until 1993
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_(United_States_law)
> ...


That's sort of what I was hinting at upthread. You're right...she didn't tell him no, nor did she attempt to fight him off. She knew it was expected. She was NOT looking forward to it, but she "did her duty".


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Robin said:


> Of course not.
> 
> You reminded me of another point I wanted to make: her brother is such a monster that Drogo looks like a prize in comparison.


Yes, there's no love lost for Viserys. But could you have said that in the first episode, with what you knew about Drogo then?
(Assuming you haven't the books yet.)

Yes, Sansa's situation is more degrading and anyone who had been paying attention should have realized that it was coming.
But the scene itself was far less explicit.

When Daenerys' scene first aired, it was very explicit and our impression of Drogo up to that point fell far short of positive.

I'm curious to know, where were all those people protesting Sansa's scene then?


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

Even more to the point, she was already beginning to undress, Ramsey just accelerated the process, in a brutally sadistic way.



Jstkiddn said:


> That's sort of what I was hinting at upthread. You're right...she didn't tell him no, nor did she attempt to fight him off. She knew it was expected. She was NOT looking forward to it, but she "did her duty".


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

The only good news as I see it, unless they stop focusing on Winterfell for the rest of the season, we are almost done with the Bolton family as a whole. Their comeuppance is a coming. There is no (predictable) way they can hold off Stannis and Littlefinger's attacks. I have a not so bold prediction - whatever happens in Winterfell, Sansa will find herself on the victim end of the stick in the aftermath.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

nickels said:


> The only good news as I see it, unless they stop focusing on Winterfell for the rest of the season, we are almost done with the Bolton family as a whole. Their comeuppance is a coming. There is no (predictable) way they can hold off Stannis and Littlefinger's attacks. I have a not so bold prediction - whatever happens in Winterfell, Sansa will find herself on the victim end of the stick in the aftermath.


Not if she rallies a rebellion inside the walls and invites them in as the Heir to Winterfell.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I'm curious to know, where were all those people protesting Sansa's scene then?


There were quite a few. I don't think we had any senators complaining at that point, but a lot of people were upset with Drogos wedding night.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

nickels said:


> The only good news as I see it, unless they stop focusing on Winterfell for the rest of the season, we are almost done with the Bolton family as a whole. Their comeuppance is a coming. There is no (predictable) way they can hold off Stannis and Littlefinger's attacks. I have a not so bold prediction - whatever happens in Winterfell, Sansa will find herself on the victim end of the stick in the aftermath.


Wasn't it mentioned in the show that 100 men could hold Winterfell against an entire army for a long time? Even Theon only lost because his men betrayed him.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> Interesting that a couple of people have mentioned "from behind" as a degrading way to have sex. Ceresi didn't seem to think so.


Really? I don't recall anyone saying that. I did list is as one of the similarities but not as a per se degrading act.

If someone said that, I would consider it a strange comment.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

LordKronos said:


> And not just raped, but in one of the most inhuman manners possible...bent over an object and taken like a dog.


Kronos seems to think so.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Put me down for what happened wasn't rape, but was certainly disgusting and uncomfortable.

I'm actually surprised at the reaction. There have been much worse scenes in this series. This one only hurt because we "sorta" like Sansa and hoped things would get better for her, not worse.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

brianp6621 said:


> Kronos seems to think so.


huh...I missed that...I stand corrected.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Yes, there's no love lost for Viserys. But could you have said that in the first episode, with what you knew about Drogo then?
> (Assuming you haven't the books yet.)
> ...
> 
> I'm curious to know, where were all those people protesting Sansa's scene then?


Yes. I just rewatched the first episode. Viserys was awful.

" I'd let his whole khalasar **** you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army&#8230;"

And evaluating her like she was a brood made?

Second: so you mean the people like me saying this scene was worse or the people like the senator who think this scene was gratuitous?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Ereth said:


> There were quite a few. I don't think we had any senators complaining at that point, but a lot of people were upset with Drogos wedding night.


I honestly didn't know because I didn't start watching Game of Thrones until after HBO aired the second season.



Robin said:


> Yes. I just rewatched the first episode. Viserys was awful.
> 
> " I'd let his whole khalasar **** you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army&#8230;"
> 
> ...


People like the senator and the Mary Sue Project.
If the Sansa scene is what caused them to stop watching the show, I think that they should have stopped after Drogo raped Daenerys, based on their reasoning.

IMO, this is less gratuitous to me than Prince Oberyn lounging on a bed with a couple of naked women while delivering a soliloquy.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Sorry, can't begin to tell you what they're thinking!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

In some cases, it's probably more of a "Straw that broke the camels back" than an isolated "That one scene made me give up". I've seen people say that they were bothered by the earlier scenes but hoped it wouldn't recur, and now that it has, they feel they just can't keep going.

I am not their spokesperson and I don't claim to speak for them. I don't even necessarily agree with them. But I can understand that viewpoint even if I don't necessarily agree with it.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Robin said:


> Interesting that a couple of people have mentioned "from behind" as a degrading way to have sex.





Anubys said:


> Really? I don't recall anyone saying that. I did list is as one of the similarities but not as a per se degrading act.





brianp6621 said:


> Kronos seems to think so.





Anubys said:


> huh...I missed that...I stand corrected.


Actually, Anubys, you were right the first time. I didn't say it was a degrading way to have sex. I said it was the most inhuman (note...the 'e' was left off on purpose) way to rape. This even sort of comes from the show itself. Season 1, Episode 2



> And the Dothraki take slaves like a hound takes a b***h.
> Are you a slave,Khaleesi?
> Then don't make love like a slave.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> But did Ramsey rape her? I don't recall her saying No, how did she not expect him to Consummate the marriage?
> 
> Heck even in some states in the US, Marital Rape wasn't even a crime until 1993
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_(United_States_law)
> ...


I have not read any post past this point. So let me pop some corn and settle in.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Less fireworky than I thought it would be.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> I have not read any post past this point. So let me pop some corn and settle in.


Too late. We've discussed it to death already. Not only that, but everyone was respectful and cordial.

I know. I think TCF is broken.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

He should pop over into the various spoiler debate discussions. There's also a potentially good one in HH over the statistics of the number of men vs women child molesters he may want to check out.

I hate to see a good bowl of popcorn go to waste.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

LordKronos said:


> Actually, Anubys, you were right the first time. I didn't say it was a degrading way to have sex. I said it was the most inhuman (note...the 'e' was left off on purpose) way to rape. This even sort of comes from the show itself. Season 1, Episode 2


Actually the quote you provided goes against your point. It says that they can't make love like that or that making love like that is equivalent to being a slave. It says nothing about rape.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> Actually the quote you provided goes against your point. It says that they can't make love like that or that making love like that is equivalent to being a slave. It says nothing about rape.


Uhhhh....did you watch season 1, episode 8? I think we saw pretty well what them "making love" to a slave is. They ransack a town, kill the men, rape the women, and then claim the raped women for their wives. I'm fairly certain none of that was voluntary. The reason it says nothing about "rape" is because the Dothraki have no concept of rape, and thus probably no word for "rape" in their vocabulary (just like they have no word for "thank you")


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Roose Bolton just told Ramsay just how he was conceived in a rape of a conquest's wife under the tree the guy was hanging from.

Didn't he say he (almost?) had the woman killed when she showed up and told him she had a boy?


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

LordKronos said:


> Uhhhh....did you watch season 1, episode 8? I think we saw pretty well what them "making love" to a slave is. They ransack a town, kill the men, rape the women, and then claim the raped women for their wives. I'm fairly certain none of that was voluntary. The reason it says nothing about "rape" is because the Dothraki have no concept of rape, and thus probably no word for "rape" in their vocabulary (just like they have no word for "thank you")


But that quote also goes to say that she shouldn't "make love" (in the real sense because that's what she wanted/was trying to do) to Drogo in that way because it was equivalent to rape/a Dothraki taking a slave. That is why I was saying the quote doesn't support your assertion that you weren't saying that people couldn't have sex that way without it being degrading. That quote says exactly what we were talking about, that some people thing that sex from behind is inherently degrading.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> He should pop over into the various spoiler debate discussions. There's also a potentially good one in HH over the statistics of the number of men vs women child molesters he may want to check out.
> 
> I hate to see a good bowl of popcorn go to waste.


The spoiler one gets my blood boiling when it really shouldn't. I have engaged in a small skirmish here and there, but I have avoided the big thread so far. I intend to keep it that way for the time being.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Sophie Turner's thoughts on the scene in question.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> I have not read any post past this point. So let me pop some corn and settle in.


Lol

I think at this point most of the people who would argue the post don't watch the show anymore anyhow.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Or, you know, it's just not a controversial statement.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> I think at this point most of the people who would argue the post don't watch the show anymore anyhow.


and I'd disagree 

I have big issues with the way they did it but more so the art of not listening and taking into consideration the statements about the previous scenario with Drogo. It was rape, just because it was culturally acceptable at the time and Sansa didn't say no (I can't BELIEVE I have to say that) that doesn't mitigate it.

Yes I have an issue with it and I'll continue to watch it, but I'm disappointed with the producers and the way they handled it.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Now I think we're arguing semantics.

I consider this like whether or not marital rape is a crime. It hasn't always been. So the dictionary and legal definitions diverge.

Yes, he raped her, but he didn't do anything illegal by doing so.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> and I'd disagree
> 
> I have big issues with the way they did it but more so the art of not listening and taking into consideration the statements about the previous scenario with Drogo. It was rape, just because it was culturally acceptable at the time and Sansa didn't say no (I can't BELIEVE I have to say that) that doesn't mitigate it.
> 
> Yes I have an issue with it and I'll continue to watch it, but I'm disappointed with the producers and the way they handled it.


She knew what she had to do and she did it. Obviously she didn't like what she was doing, but she wasn't unwilling.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> She knew what she had to do and she did it. Obviously she didn't like what she was doing, but she wasn't unwilling.


Are we talking Dany or Sansa? Because Sansa didn't have a clue what she was "consenting" to...i.e., she was consenting to sex, not being humiliated in front of her foster brother who betrayed her family.

(Notwithstanding the issue of what consent means when she effectively has no choice in the marriage...)


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Are we talking Dany or Sansa? Because Sansa didn't have a clue what she was "consenting" to...i.e., she was consenting to sex, not being humiliated in front of her foster brother who betrayed her family.


Either way, she had a duty to perform and she did it. I saw the whole scene as the ultimate sacrifice for her. In order to further her goals she had to do it and she did, even under (to her) dire circumstances. The whole scene raised my respect for that character. She is not the simpering flower from season 2 anymore.

I think Ramsey's goal was to make her feel like it was rape in order to degrade and control her. He failed in that respect and Sansa is stronger for it. That scene IMO is the turning point for that character.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I was thinking about this. It may be that Sansas plan is to return despicable behavior with pleasant. 

How do you annoy a sadist? You enjoy what he's doing. It takes the pleasure out of it.

If she were someone else, he could "get bored with her" and then he could kill her, but she's not. She's Sansa Stark, she's the key to holding the North. Ramsay is actually limited in what he can do to her without bringing the wrath of not just his father, but the entire north down upon himself. 

Ramsay hasn't realized it yet, but Sansa actually holds the power here. She can deprive him of his pleasure, by refusing to accept that it is degrading, and he can't actually hurt her. Unlike Joffrey, Ramsay is not the King. He has people he has to answer to.

In that regard, Joffrey was good training for her. She knows now what she can survive.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

Robin said:


> Yes, he raped her, but he didn't do anything illegal by doing so.


If the concept of "illegal" even has any meaning when applied to the scion of a "great" house. Who would arrest him, for any crime?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Marco said:


> If the concept of "illegal" even has any meaning when applied to the scion of a "great" house. Who would arrest him, for any crime?


Uh, have you been watching the show? Consider Margaery's situation in King's Landing for an example of a sovereign being subject to the law.

On the other hand, I certainly agree that this is not a legal question. In Daenery's situation which we are comparing with this, there was certainly no legal system in force. The question is what we, as viewers, morally consider to be rape. And whether we willing to view said acts to further the plot.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I imagine if they tried to make King Robert subject to the law of the seven, there would be a lot of new holy heads on pikes on churches.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeAndrews said:


> I imagine if they tried to make King Robert subject to the law of the seven, there would be a lot of new holy heads on pikes on churches.


That's the difference between a strong king (Robert) and a stupid weak one (Cersei Tommen).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Must watch - Coldplay and the cast of GoT unite for "Game of Thrones: The Musical"






If you're not sure whether to watch, just imagine Liam Neeson saying, "It was the first romantic song about incest in Coldplay's career."


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> If you're not sure whether to watch, just imagine Liam Neeson saying, "It was the first romantic song about incest in Coldplay's career."


Don't forget Rastafarian Targaryen!

They cut out several of her lines in the overview video (afraid of offending Rastafarians?). Here is her song by itself:


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks for the link. That was awesome.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm really not getting this faceless people thing--are the people they kill all either bad guys (not sure who's capable of deciding that) or mercy killings? And why did Arya lie to the girl and tell her she would be cured? Did her father know they were killing her? When the man offered to kill people for Arya in the beginning, he didn't require that they be bad guys, although they were.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> And why did Arya lie to the girl and tell her she would be cured? Did her father know they were killing her?


I'm sure the father knew what was in the fountain. He brought his daughter to die and Arya spared him the agony of doing it himself. The lie was a double-faceted thing. First, it eased the girl's mind but more importantly it was Arya practicing lies as had been demonstrated earlier when the faceless man was hitting her with the stick when she lied, and even when she didn't admit to herself she was lying.

Why she needs to be able to lie like that? I guess we'll find out.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> I'm really not getting this faceless people thing--are the people they kill all either bad guys (not sure who's capable of deciding that) or mercy killings? And why did Arya lie to the girl and tell her she would be cured? Did her father know they were killing her? When the man offered to kill people for Arya in the beginning, he didn't require that they be bad guys, although they were.


My guess: the Faceless God is basically Death. They worship death and offer people to him in his service. They are killers. It seems like they have the ability to use the faces of the people they kill to disguise themselves.

They don't kill indiscriminately, but they do kill for a reason. Money, mercy, whatever. Dying people come to them for their Kervorkian help.

As killers, they are experts at it. Therefore, they are feared and respected as masters of their craft. They need to be able to blend in perfectly and lie perfectly. But that is part of the resume of being the kind of expert killers that they are.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

We rewatched the episode today and my wife noticed a tree with red leaves at the wedding and commented, "I wonder if Bran is watching?".


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> We rewatched the episode today and my wife noticed a tree with red leaves at the wedding and commented, "I wonder if Bran is watching?".


Uhhhhh.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> My guess: the Faceless God is basically Death. They worship death and offer people to him in his service. They are killers. It seems like they have the ability to use the faces of the people they kill to disguise themselves.
> 
> They don't kill indiscriminately, but they do kill for a reason. Money, mercy, whatever. Dying people come to them for their Kervorkian help.
> 
> As killers, they are experts at it. Therefore, they are feared and respected as masters of their craft. They need to be able to blend in perfectly and lie perfectly. But that is part of the resume of being the kind of expert killers that they are.


Grim reapers motivated by various means.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Grim reapers motivated by various means.


They also seem to be motivated by balance. You saved three lives, so I give you three in return. Isn't that basically what the faceless one told Ara?

So, for the dude that was obviously frightened as he drank from the pool was that a test, or was he being sentenced to death, or what? From his reactions it seems he knew he was going to die.

So far, the pool is two for two on killing it's imbibers.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> They also seem to be motivated by balance. You saved three lives, so I give you three in return. Isn't that basically what the faceless one told Ara?
> 
> So, for the dude that was obviously frightened as he drank from the pool was that a test, or was he being sentenced to death, or what? From his reactions it seems he knew he was going to die.
> 
> So far, the pool is two for two on killing it's imbibers.


I know, fantasy, but you'd think the health department would have something to say about having a huge pool of poisoned water in the foyer.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> So, for the dude that was obviously frightened as he drank from the pool was that a test, or was he being sentenced to death, or what? From his reactions it seems he knew he was going to die.


I would think even if a person made the conscious decision to kill him/herself, s/he may still be frightened.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

What was Jorah Mormont sentenced to death for? Slave trading.
Then he got to be one.
"Slavers!"


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> What was Jorah Mormont sentenced to death for? Slave trading.
> Then he got to be one.
> "Slavers!"


Sort of. In season 1 he says he tells Viserys he caught some poachers on his land, and as punishment he sold them to a slaver. Ned didn't like that and sentenced him to death, so he fled from Westeros.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Sort of. In season 1 he says he tells Viserys he caught some poachers on his land, and as punishment he sold them to a slaver. Ned didn't like that and sentenced him to death, so he fled from Westeros.


Didn't he also need to make money because of his wife's expensive taste? I seem to recall that also playing into it.

It wasn't just a punishment, he needed the money.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Didn't he also need to make money because of his wife's expensive taste? I seem to recall that also playing into it.
> 
> It wasn't just a punishment, he needed the money.


Yes, I remember that as well.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Didn't he also need to make money because of his wife's expensive taste? I seem to recall that also playing into it.
> 
> It wasn't just a punishment, he needed the money.


Yes, told Viserys he sold them because they were poachers. He told Dany he sold slaves because he needed the money for his wife but didn't mention the poaching to her. I assume both stories are true (they aren't inherently contradictory), but it's possible they aren't

Assuming its all true, then yes that's certainly one reason WHY he chose that particular punishment, but it's not as if he went selling off random people into slavery for money. So I'd say it was just punishment.


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