# Increase in Recording Quality/Size in mid-December - across channels and Tivo's



## lynnalexandra (Apr 27, 2009)

I've talked to Tivo twice - and poured over threads about recording quality. I see people saying that digital channels (including sd channels) will just record at the quality and file size they are transmitted - that there is no such thing as the ability to select basic, medium, high or best quality. I see that people have said that if you're using a cable card and getting digital channels, that you simply get the file size that is transmitted.

However - my experience is different than these claims. And the impact on me is huge. I have bought two Tivo Elites (now called XL4). I like to keep a lot of recordings - and would not have the space to store all of it if it were in high/best quality sd or hd. For a couple of years (after Comcast became all digital - and with cable cards the whole time), I have been recording series that I'd like to keep in sd (on basic or medium quality). Each 1/2 hour sitcom (for example) would be about 350-550 MB. This quality and file size would allow me to get the 2774 hours of sd recordings that Tivo claims you can get with a 2TB drive. And I wanted that many hours of recordings.

Last month, everything changed. At some point in December (between the 4th and 11th) - I think after the fall update, I noticed that my sitcoms were now 2100MB in size. When I first went to Tivo Desktop plus to pull it to my PC (for commercial cutting with VideoRedo) and eventual storage, I noticed that some of these 1/2 hour sitcoms were over 2GB in size. At first I thought that the fall update might have reset my season passes to record from the HD channels. So once the holiday busy-ness was over, I re-did some of my season passes. Then discovered that they were definitely recording on the sd channel (ABC, NBC, FOX,, Nick, TBS, BBC, G4 - as far as I have noticed, this is occurring on all channels) - but were recording as highest quality and largest file size. Then I thought that perhaps the fall update changed the recording quality to a default of highest quality.

I have a Tivo premier and went in and made sure to set the recording quality on basic. I went to change the recording quality on the two Tivo Elites (Tivo 4's) - and saw there was no option to choose recording quality on these. I called Tivo twice - both people were surprised at this and unaware of it - but both checked. One said what I've read here - that digital channels will record at whatever quality/size they are broadcast. Tivo has nothing to do with that size. But - again - until mid-December, I was able to record sd channels at different qualities and file sizes across all my Tivos (Tivo 4, premier and HD). The other Tivo rep said there should be some software change they can make and he'll escalate my issue bc. I would not have bought the last Tivo XL4 if I'd only be able to record about 500 sd hours. 

It seems that none of what I've read or heard reconciles with my experience. I have a Tivo Elite I got in April, 2012. It is filled with sd recordings I've made. I have one hour dramas (like Parenthood) with a file size of 990MB up until Dec, 4, 2012. After that, an hour episode (same channel) is 2100MB large. It's also striking to me that both 1/2 hour sitcomes and full hour shows in sd are both 2100MB. Same with Dr. Who (BBC) - one hour episode was 990MB until Dec. 6, and 2100MB starting on Dec. 7. December 7 is the date that I got the fall update rolled out to my Tivo's. Various sitcoms were 350- 650MB range before mid-December. Now all my 1/2 hour shows are 2100MB. This is not a big space saving above HD, where a 1/2 hour show in high definition is in the 2600-2900MB range. Since this change has occurred across all networks, I do not think it's a matter of the networks changing the quality/file size of the shows they transmit. And I definitely was getting SD shows recorded in much less space before December.

So I think I am asking for a few things:

1- a way to understand why this change occurred. These channels have been digital all along and I've used cable cards all along

2 - is it possible that Tivo software could reverse this change?

3 - managing my recordings is already taking too much of my time. I have been learning to use VideoRedo more efficiently and do batch managing to remove commercials. I like to save my videos as Tivo files - so that the meta-data is kept - and when I transfer the edited shows back to my Tivo, they group together in the same folder. For those reasons, I want to keep saving my edited files as Tivo files. If I do that, is there an easy way to reduce the file size? I know if I create a DVD (which I haven't done in a couple of years and don't quite remember), I can reduce file quality/size. If there is no way to still record shows with a smaller file size, is there an easy way to change the size later?

I hope my questions are clear. I know there are many on these forums that would not want to record in reduced quality/file size. But I've also seen some who share my concern for conserving space. 

Thank you for any input, similar experiences, suggestions, etc.

Lynn.

PS - ultimately, I want to store my videos on a NAS (but still don't want 2GB sitcoms) - that could group series of shows, and show playlists to pull to Tivo. Right now I just got the NAS - don't know how to use it, haven't had time to post here about how to get Tivo recordings on it, etc. But after my next period of work crunch, I may devote more time to this. And that solution might incorporate my desire to keep smaller-sized recordings.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

I would imagine it is not the networks but your cable company. They control how much they compress all channels on there system I have always averaged about 5GB for a 1 hour show. My cable company compresses video very little


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## lynnalexandra (Apr 27, 2009)

Hi, Compnurd,
That makes sense (it's not what I was hoping to hear, but at least it seems like a plausible explanation for all recording sizes changing). But before hitting "post" I thought I'd check on another experiment I'm running this weekend.

I'm recording some of the same shows - but on different Tivos to see what file sizes I get. Just this weekend, I recorded some episodes of Friends on an older Tivo HD (which uses a cable card - and it's a cable card that was newly activated when I re-activated this Tivo in the past week). It gave me 1/2 hour episodes that are 990MB in size. So it seems as though the cable company's compression is not the only factor at play here. I recorded those same episodes/channels of Friends on the Tivo 4 and they are 2100MB. The Tivo Premier seems to have changed like the Tivo 4's - and is recording at larger sizes. 

This leaves me still confused as to what's going on......and a bit more hopeful that if the Tivo HD can still record in a smaller file size, that the size is being determined by the Tivo and not Comcast or the cable card.

Did anybody else see a change in file size for sd recordings some time in December? if so, are differences on some Tivo's but not others? Are some people still getting sd recordings in smaller sizes (closer to 1GB for an hour).
Thanks.
Lynn.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

Cablecard would have nothing to do with it. you can rule that out now


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Sounds like you were previously recording analog cable channels and either your cable company has discontined the analog versions of those channels and the TiVo is now tuning the digital versions in order to get those shows, or for some other reason the TiVo has switched over to tuning the digital versions of the channels instead of the analog versions.

Only on the analog versions do you get a choice of recording "quality" (which is how high a bitrate the TiVo uses to digitize the incoming analog signal).

If it's digital coming in, it just gets "Xeroxed".


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

Yes. That and the Elite Only records Digital Cable


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Observation from using Desktop. Premiere set to 1080i only. Record a 1080i show and it will use around 7.5GB per hour. A 720P show needs about 3GB - 3.5GB.

I enabled 480i and selected an SD channel. The size, while still recording a 30 minute show on NBC, was your 2,100MB from the start. The Duration was incrementing. My AVR shows 480i and screen looks like it also. Half way through recording I set the output back to 1080i. After the recording finished I began a transfer to my laptop. During the transfer the Duration started at 30 minutes and the size displayed an increasing amount. The size after the transfer finished was 509MB.

I don't understand the results so I can't make a conclusion. I never record SD with the TiVo. Is it possible that you are looking at the size on the TiVo and not the size after the transfer? It's probable the size displayed on the TiVo is incorrect.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

You mentioned that a half hour show and a one hour show are both the same size now, 2100mb.It sounds like what another poster said, that the TiVo is showing the wrong file size. I think the size after it has been transferred to the computer might give you different sizes for half hour and one hour recordings.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I've had hour long HD shows vary anywhere between 1GB and 8GB. And had SD shows be up to several GBs. The sizes have always been all over the place over the last twelve years that I've been recording HD content.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

There's another thread floating around that after the fall update all shows were showing at 2.5GB or something similar, I have to wonder if this is the same issue.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

The output setting controls what is sent to the TV. It has zero effect on what is recorded or transferred.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

dianebrat said:


> There's another thread floating around that after the fall update all shows were showing at 2.5GB or something similar, I have to wonder if this is the same issue.


The Fall Update did change the filesize that TiVo reports to approx 2.05 GB/0.5Hr block for SD. The file size reported for HD programming did not appear to change.

When I download the actual file it is approx 900MB. @ a quality/bitrate of 3,500Kbps




















```
General
[B]Complete name                            : R:\That Girl - Counter-Proposal 113 (11_05_2012).mpg[/B]
Format                                   : MPEG-PS
[B]File size                                : 804 MiB
Duration                                 : 30mn 0s[/B]
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
[B]Overall bit rate                         : 3 746 Kbps[/B]

Video
ID                                       : 224 (0xE0)
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
Format profile                           : [email protected]
Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
Format settings, Matrix                  : Custom
Format settings, GOP                     : Variable
Duration                                 : 30mn 0s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
[B]Bit rate                                 : 3 479 Kbps[/B]
Maximum bit rate                         : 15.0 Mbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Top Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.336
Stream size                              : 747 MiB (93%)
```










```
[B]Complete name                            : R:\Americas Test Kitchen From Cooks Illustrated - Bistro-Style Steak and Potatoes 1226 (02_04_2013).mpg[/B]
Format                                   : MPEG-PS
[B]File size                                : 630 MiB
Duration                                 : 29mn 53s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 2 948 Kbps[/B]

Video
ID                                       : 224 (0xE0)
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
Format profile                           : [email protected]
Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
Format settings, Matrix                  : Custom
Format settings, GOP                     : Variable
Duration                                 : 29mn 53s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 2 698 Kbps
Maximum bit rate                         : 15.0 Mbps
Width                                    : 704 pixels
Height                                   : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Top Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.266
Stream size                              : 577 MiB (91%)
```


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

CoxInPHX said:


> The Fall Update did change the filesize that TiVo reports to approx 2.05 GB/0.5Hr block for SD. *The file size reported for HD programming did not appear to change.*


That's not correct. It doesn't matter if the program is SD or HD. There is now a minimum reported size for all shows of around 2 GB. Also the reported recording size of some shows I record in HD increased by about 25% despite being over 2 GB in length, while other shows did not increase. I think 720p recordings increased while 1080i one did not. It's possible that the TiVo is reporting the size that it thinks the recording would be if it was 1080i. In any case it's wrong.

See my post in the original thread for more details.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Is this strictly an S4 scewup?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

unitron said:


> Is this strictly an S4 scewup?


Probably. But remember it's *reported* size, not real size. 480i 30 minutes is 2.1Gb, 720p is 4.2Gb. These are sizes as viewed by TiVo Desktop of the titles still on the TiVo. After transfer to the PC the real size is shown. It might get fixed, but I don't give it a high priority since the issue is now understood and not a fatal flaw.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

To be clear to the OP, TiVos have no control over file size when recording from a digital channel. No TiVos have the ability to transcode digital channels real-time to a lower quality. You could easily check to see if your SD channels are digital by going to DVR Diagnostics. What you have experienced is most likely the result of your cable company switching 2-99 to be digital since you are using a cablecard.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> Probably. But remember it's *reported* size, not real size. 480i 30 minutes is 2.1Gb, 720p is 4.2Gb. These are sizes as viewed by TiVo Desktop of the titles still on the TiVo. After transfer to the PC the real size is shown. It might get fixed, but I don't give it a high priority since the issue is now understood and not a fatal flaw.


Yes the actual recorded sizes haven't changed, but if the TiVo thinks a 400 MB file is 2.1 GB, it's free space indicator is likely wrong and it might incorrectly delete existing recordings to make room when there is plenty of space left on the drive. Effectively artificially turning a 2 GB Premiere XL into a 500 MB Premiere.

I haven't actually taken the time to add up all the reported recording sizes to see if the reported free space matches the disk size, so I don't know if that's actually happening or not.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

morac said:


> Yes the actual recorded sizes haven't changed, but if the TiVo thinks a 400 MB file is 2.1 GB, it's free space indicator is likely wrong and it might incorrectly delete existing recordings to make room when there is plenty of space left on the drive. Effectively artificially turning a 2 GB Premiere XL into a 500 MB Premiere.
> 
> I haven't actually taken the time to add up all the reported recording sizes to see if the reported free space matches the disk size, so I don't know if that's actually happening or not.


Funny you brought that up. I have the 1/27 _The Mentalist_ with a yellow dot. My Shows indicates 25% used and the Deleted Items is empty. I have already offloaded the title and want to see if and why it gets deleted tonight. I do wonder (I'm new to TiVo) if the box looks at the "To Do List" to warn of low space. My list has about 50 hours of titles now on my 45 hour box. I saw posted that might be a issue. I guess I'll keep playing.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> Funny you brought that up. I have the 1/27 The Mentalist with a yellow dot. My Shows indicates 25% used and the Deleted Items is empty. I have already offloaded the title and want to see if and why it gets deleted tonight. I do wonder (I'm new to TiVo) if the box looks at the "To Do List" to warn of low space. My list has about 50 hours of titles now on my 45 hour box. I saw posted that might be a issue. I guess I'll keep playing.


The Premiere does take scheduled recordings into account when deciding when it will need to delete existing recordings, but the recordings should only be deleted at the time the space is actually needed.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Funny you brought that up. I have the 1/27 _The Mentalist_ with a yellow dot. My Shows indicates 25% used and the Deleted Items is empty. I have already offloaded the title and want to see if and why it gets deleted tonight. I do wonder (I'm new to TiVo) if the box looks at the "To Do List" to warn of low space. My list has about 50 hours of titles now on my 45 hour box. I saw posted that might be a issue. I guess I'll keep playing.


A yellow dot simply means that it's available for deletion, not that it it will actually do so, I have yellow dots that are years old.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> A yellow dot simply means that it's available for deletion, not that it it will actually do so, I have yellow dots that are years old.


That's what it used to mean in the old SD UI, but on the Premiere HD My Shows a yellow dot is supposed to mean the show will be deleted within 3 days. The description even says so.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

morac said:


> That's what it used to mean in the old SD UI, but on the Premiere HD My Shows a yellow dot is supposed to mean the show will be deleted within 3 days. The description even says so.


I don't think the dots change back though once it goes yellow which means it could stay on there for years as yellow if you never get close to 100%.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

morac said:


> That's what it used to mean in the old SD UI, but on the Premiere HD My Shows a yellow dot is supposed to mean the show will be deleted within 3 days. The description even says so.





innocentfreak said:


> I don't think the dots change back though once it goes yellow which means it could stay on there for years as yellow if you never get close to 100%.


Should I ignore the delete date shown with the HDUI or can we all agree this area needs some work? If my yellow dot is gone tomorrow I'll let you know. Funny, but this show and two others are displayed by the Desktop program as having yellow dots with the exclamation point. After transfer they go to keep forever. Maybe I'll move something back and see if I can get a red dot.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> I don't think the dots change back though once it goes yellow which means it could stay on there for years as yellow if you never get close to 100%.


I've had yellow dots change back to green after doing a reboot. Then again they weren't supposed to be yellow in the first place.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

morac said:


> That's what it used to mean in the old SD UI, but on the Premiere HD My Shows a yellow dot is supposed to mean the show will be deleted within 3 days. The description even says so.


Even though it SAYS that, it doesn't seem to me it really means that. Unless it really does mean "if I record everything in the To Do list and you don't delete ANYTHING in the meantime(*), this will be deleted in 3 days". But that seems to be a fairly confusing thing in a "simple" UI, IMHO.

Though the other day, I was in the high 70s or low 80s of percentage, and lost recordings on my Premiere 4 for the first time in a VERY long time. I saw them there one minute, then a few minutes later there were some recordings gone.. Then the next day (actually the same day, since IIRC it was the middle of the night that I saw the issue), WITHOUT me deleting a whole bunch of shows, I saw it recording more suggestions..

Basically, the free space calculation seemed to go "wacky" for a while, but it's been more sane the past few days.. I *have* gone back to more KUID recordings out of paranoia though. One show I have on my iPad mini, and the only other that I *know* I lost was the failed Munsters reboot.

(*) which absolutely is the kind of "figuring" they do when determining if there is enough space if you have KUID recordings for example..


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I haven't noticed any odd deletions on my Premiere and none of my recording show as yellow (including ones from over a year ago), but then I don't have any season passes set as KUID. They are all keep at most 5 or 10 episodes and keep until space needed. I also rarely mark shows in My Shows as KUID. I only have 2 marked as such now. The only time I saw shows turn yellow is when I had a week where I recorded a lot and didn't watch anything, I got up to 90% full and a number of items turned yellow. I then went on a watching bin and got the space down to 50% and eventually the yellow dots disappeared. 

The only reason the Premiere has to delete shows without running low on space is if the keep at most feature is used. I use that to keep the last 3 episodes of The Daily Show. Setting a season pass as KUID and keep at most "all episodes" is a good way to cause the Premiere to freak out trying to make room.

To bring this back to the topic at hand. Another side effect of the Premiere over reporting recording size, is that when transferring shows to another TiVo, extra recordings may be deleted to "fit" the transferred show.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

More data. Yesterday the yellow dot shown was to be deleted on 2/5. This morning the yellow dot has an exclamation point on it and it now is scheduled to be deleted 2/8. I guess it received a stay of execution. My usage has never exceeded 50% but my To Do List contains about 120% of my total storage.


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## lynnalexandra (Apr 27, 2009)

Wow. I am so glad to get so many responses. These are so helpful.

First - I am definitely recording digital sd channels. They have been all digital for a long time. The change to digital did not occur in December. This is definitely a Tivo software issues.

Thankfully, your posts got me to double check those file sizes upon transfer. It was Tivo Desktop that was reading the files as 2100MB. and it reads it that way from the Tivo Elite, Tivo xl4 and Tivo premier (it is not reading those sizes from my Tivo HD).

There had been a couple of files I transferred and edited - and somehow they were truly larger - so I hadn't thought to check further. But overnight I transferred 1/2 hour sitcomes from all three tivo's - where Tivo desktop read them as 2100MB. And I'm glad to report that all of them were more in the range of 500-600MB.

I am tremendously relieved - bc. there are things we want to store - but don't have space to store them all in HD - and for sitcoms my daughter is watching for the fourth and fifth time, sd is just fine. 

My Tivo elite and xl4 have been in the 90-96% full range for a while now. In fact, I have wondered how it's not getting more full since I've recorded additional shows. I have also transferred and deleted some - but perhaps it's part of the size meter being wonky. I will keep a closer eye on it to make sure my shows don't get deleted (although I don't think they have yet).

This brings up one further thing to research. After I edit out commercials - but continue to save as a .tivo file, when I transfer the show back to my Tivo, I wonder what size the Tivo will think it is. If it's registering the size correctly, that would be great. It would avoid my getting perilously close to full - and it means I can transfer back the edited shows so they are on my Tivo (we do want immediate Tivo access to some of these shows - others can be archived off the Tivo).

It is not encouraging that the folks at Tivo seemed unaware of this problem, gave me two different answers (neither of which were correct) and have failed to follow up with me as promised. 

Thanks for everyone here.
Lynn.


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## dapoppa (Dec 31, 2006)

Tivo is aware of the problem since I called on the morning of 12/6/12. Here is my experience and what I have discovered over the past 3 months of dealing with this crap:

Any size program under 2.0gb will be sized at 2.05gb, larger files/programs and of course the hd and digital stuff is larger as expected. On 12/6 I was using a 3 and a premiere. The premiere started sometime between 0000 and 0300 using 2.05gb for any file recorded. A 5 minute wx report, 30 min news/comedy, 60 min drama/show, 90 min, 120 min, all showed 2.05gb on the tivo and 2100mb on the tivo desktop.

BEFORE the fall upgrade, a 30 min was about .39gb or so, 60 min was .78gb, 2 hrs was about 160mb, etc. All sizes proportional to the # of minutes recorded. Again, on the desktop it NOW shows 2100mb or larger depending on the size of the program before xferring to the computer. But always at least 2100mb, and of course this cuts by a factor of 5 the number of 30 min programs I can record. 

NOW here's the rub, when I xfer the files to my computer using the tivo desktop, they are reduced in size to the normal size it did before 12/6. All of them are reduced. The hd channels and some others do make bigger files but up to a 2 hr program is 2.05gb. Up to 5x larger than they should be on the tivo. 

INTERESTINGLY, when I xfer between the two tivos, the size is also reduced to the regular size, SO what I have to do now is xfer files from the living room to the family room, and xfer the same files from the fam rm to the liv rm so I have enough room to store all the programs w/o them being deleted by the tivo. So that starts my day, every day, xfer from liv to fam and a few hours later xfer the same ones from fam to liv. AND xfer from fam to liv and back liv to fam of the file recorded in the family room. 

Tivo knows about it and has told me they have no idea when this issue will be fixed, and after 7 inquiries by me, have basically said they know it is happening but don't seem to be too worried about it. By the way, my 3 burned out the hard drive in January, so I replaced it with a premiere and during installation, it installed the fall update, so both are doing the same thing. I had no way to stop the install of fall 12, so it made the liv and fam room ones the same, 2.05gb per prog or larger. 

I have tivo progs on 2 premieres, and 3 diff computers and 3 external hard drives and they are filling up and running out of space. Also, the fam and liv tivos do "see" each other 98% of the time, but it is a rare day when the computers can be "seen" by either tivo. Again, they are premiere series 4. So while I have all the shows on hard drives in my desk, they are there to stay since the tivos won't d/l them back to be view on the good tvs. I can watch them on the laptops and desktops, but my wife does not see the humor in that situation AT ALL. 

:down: 

I watch the d/l's to the computer and it goes 1%, 2%, 3% etc etc, but when it his 17% give or take on a half hour show, it jumps to done, and starts the next file d/l. On an hour show, it goes up to about 34% and jumps to done and starts the next file d/l, and on and on like that. The files so d/l'ed are perfect in every way, no loss of content. So somehow the xfer strips the files of the extraneous mbs and stores only the normal about 400mb, 800mb, 1200mb, 1600mb like it used to do. So go figure that out. I cannot obviously. 

I have been using tivo for ten years and this is an outrage. I have charter cable and can get free dvr's from them, free or $5 a month, cheaper than the tivos and if they burn out, they give me another. Room to room is there and there is little diff between and among the tivos and charter's dvr's. I have to waste an hour a day or more xfering files back and forth. I think, why not just move all the programming from liv to fam and only xfer them one time, one way, but that's a real pain also, and when they fix it, I would have to change them all back. Plus the 3 burned out, it was older, yes, but I am sure all the xferring was in part reason for its demise. 

I hope they fix this soon, att and charter both are vying for my business and it is becoming more and more tempting by the week. If I did not have lifetime on one of the premieres, I would have changed over already. 

I cannot believe more people have not complained about this, but maybe they just don't watch the file sizes nor do they use the tivo desktop, which is where I saw it at 0600 on 12/6 using 2100mb per program. C'mon tivo, you can do better...

PS: There was ONE tech at tivo that knew about and heard about this issue and he was very helpful, and passed the issue higher up. I think he was the only one who believed me, the others, I had to explain it all to them and they were not aware of such a problem. I did get a final note from them that they do blame the 12/6 fall update, but had no idea when it would be fixed. 

Tivo 1 retired but still works 40hr
Tivo 3 hard drive down retired 80hr
2 Tivo premieres, series 4, 414hrs each, connected wirelessly to each other and to various computers. I do not use anything but basic quality, still have tube tvs in liv and fam rm.


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## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

JoeKustra said:


> Probably. But remember it's *reported* size, not real size. 480i 30 minutes is 2.1Gb, 720p is 4.2Gb. These are sizes as viewed by TiVo Desktop of the titles still on the TiVo. After transfer to the PC the real size is shown. It might get fixed, but I don't give it a high priority since the issue is now understood and not a fatal flaw.


Just a thought. Perhaps what is being reported is the space it takes up in the MFS media partitions. I know the drive itself is 512 byte blocks but the MFS system is different. This is speculation but perhaps it is akin to the cluster size we see in our computers. If the cluster size is 4k then any file size under 4k still takes up 4k of disk space but our computers report the actual size of the file. Maybe the tivo is reporting the cluster size that is being used by the video file and not the actual file size. When you transfer a file to a computer, the file size will be reported as the actual size but the free space removed from the drive will be a multiple of a cluster.

Jim

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

jmbach said:


> Just a thought. Perhaps what is being reported is the space it takes up in the MFS media partitions. I know the drive itself is 512 byte blocks but the MFS system is different. This is speculation but perhaps it is akin to the cluster size we see in our computers. If the cluster size is 4k then any file size under 4k still takes up 4k of disk space but our computers report the actual size of the file. Maybe the tivo is reporting the cluster size that is being used by the video file and not the actual file size. When you transfer a file to a computer, the file size will be reported as the actual size but the free space removed from the drive will be a multiple of a cluster.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


I think we can agree it's a reporting (display) issue. The effort to make the TiVo or the Desktop report the actual number of bytes is not so important. I agree, two different files should not share the same physical sector. The block or cluster size isn't an issue when the first size reported is 2.1GB and the last size reported is much smaller.


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## lynnalexandra (Apr 27, 2009)

I am really disappointed in Tivo. This is the type of ineptitutde - and waste of our time - that is more typical of Comcast. The fact that Dapoppa reported this to Tivo on Dec. 6 - and repeatedly after that - and only one tech person was familiar with the issue... that's really inexcusable. Once a bug has been found, it should be documented - and documented well enough that Tivo rep's can find this information when other customers call in with the same issue.

I spoke with two tech's the first weekend in Feb. Neither had heard of this. The first did not bother to document my call. The second did - and gave me an incident number - and promised I'd get a follow up call. Of course I got no follow-up - except for their automated customer satisfaction survey - which I did fill out- expressing my discontent and again asking for follow up. Nothing.

Having to transfer recordings to desktop, other tivo's - or anywhere - just to transfer back to get accurate file size readings is ridiculous. This is especially an issue if Tivo thinks the drive is full and starts to delete shows. For some reason, though, Tivo has not deleted my shows. My two Tivo elites (with 2tb drives) have been reading at about 92-94% full for a couple of weeks. I am continuing to record more shows than I am deleting - and the meter isn't increasing. I don't know why that is - but I'm glad I"m not losing shows - yet.

I thought Tivo was now monitoring this forum. Be nice to hear from one of them on this thread.
Lynn.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Tivo is officially monitoring THIER forum. Some individuals come here from time to time, but this is not the place to get a response.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lynnalexandra said:


> I am really disappointed in Tivo. This is the type of ineptitutde - and waste of our time - that is more typical of Comcast. The fact that Dapoppa reported this to Tivo on Dec. 6 - and repeatedly after that - and only one tech person was familiar with the issue... that's really inexcusable. Once a bug has been found, it should be documented - and documented well enough that Tivo rep's can find this information when other customers call in with the same issue.
> 
> I thought Tivo was now monitoring this forum. Be nice to hear from one of them on this thread.
> Lynn.


Yes, it would be nice. I gave up on nice a while ago from any CE manufacturer. The deletion issue is strange too. I left a recording sit for two weeks. The "delete on" date would change on the deletion day. I got the Tivo (not Desktop) to finally show a yellow dot with the exclamation point. And then the date moved again. It's not a To Do List problem from what I can tell since I always have 120% of capacity on my list. Bugs are a way to keep programmers employed. At least that helps the economy. If it was perfect there wouldn't be a seasonal update. As you can tell, my expectations are low.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

dapoppa said:


> NOW here's the rub, when I xfer the files to my computer using the tivo desktop, they are reduced in size to the normal size it did before 12/6. All of them are reduced. The hd channels and some others do make bigger files but up to a 2 hr program is 2.05gb. Up to 5x larger than they should be on the tivo.


NOTHING is being reduced in size. It's simply a reporting issue.

Tivo "says" the file is 2.05 GB. So when you download it, your downloading program of choice is showing you percentage AS IF THE FILE WERE 2.05 GB in size.

But it ends when it really should end.. That's why the % download is wrong.

I'm not saying this is good.. this is a fairly basic thing I'm surprised they got wrong, and I also wonder if this bad value is being used internally in the Tivo.. it *seems* to be since I've noted before that my Premiere 4 seems to "pre-delete" things for recordings a LOT more easily than my S3 or TivoHD has done.


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## dapoppa (Dec 31, 2006)

Well, I understand your reasoning, but before fall update, actual kb, mb, gb were reported. Why on earth would they change the way actual usage is reported? And the tivo feels the extraneous bytes are used because instead of 414 hrs sd, I can barely get 200 hrs on each tivo. That's why I xfer them back and forth, to have room. Especially when I can seldom get the tivos to recognize the computers and allow d/l's from computer to tivo. The comps always see the tivos, but seldom the opposite is true since the update. 

Is anyone else have the same problem with the tivo not showing the comps on the my list page? I know the network is good and supports 2 smartphones, 2 tivos, a wireless printer, 2 laptops, 2 desktops in one direction only and a tablet. 

This update is the worst clusterbang they have ever come up with in my tivo history. I don't know if the 80 hour's demise cause a prob now leaving me all new technology when the old 40 and 80 hour tivos worked just fine. Now that the 80 hour is out of the loop, the two premieres do not seem to find the computers, none of the 4 in use. I dunno.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

It's some kind of bug, I don't think there's any way this is intentional. I wonder if it's some kind of rounding issue. (something akin to rounding, at least)


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## lynnalexandra (Apr 27, 2009)

I've also had the issue of my Tivo not seeing my computer. When I called Tivo about it, they suggested switching to Beacon (and not bonjour). I don't remember the exact steps they walked me through - but basically there are options for Tivo Desktop to access the network with Bonjour or Beacon. (A while ago, I remember hearing that Bonjour was preferable if it works. And for a couple of years it worked fine. I don't recall why Bonjour was considered better).

Once I changed to Beacon - and restarted Tivo Desktop, my Tivos do find my computer. A couple of times, either I reset it to Bonjour - or it just went back to Bonjour as a default. And for a while my tivos would see the pc - but at some point they stop - and I have to reset it to Beacon.

I don't know if that will be helpful. And I don't know if that happened with the Fall update - but it was certainly around that time.

Wildly inaccurate file size readings seems like a significant problem. I'll probably call them again at some point - but it's a pretty frustrating use of time.

Lynn.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lynnalexandra said:


> Wildly inaccurate file size readings seems like a significant problem. I'll probably call them again at some point - but it's a pretty frustrating use of time.
> Lynn.


I agree Lynn. Yet the only time I can see a bloated file size is when selecting which file to transfer with the Desktop. Are there other places file sizes are reported wrong?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> I agree Lynn. Yet the only time I can see a bloated file size is when selecting which file to transfer with the Desktop. Are there other places file sizes are reported wrong?


Select a show and press the info button. The wrong reported size is listed there.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

morac said:


> Select a show and press the info button. The wrong reported size is listed there.


Interesting. I never saw that before. This is my first TiVo and I never record SD channels. There doesn't seem to be a problem with HD, only 480i. And the percentage seems right: 30 minutes displays as <1% and 2.05Gb. It can't be both on my little 320Gb/"45" hour unit. The Desktop program shows 834Mb. Perhaps TiVo never tested that item with 480i content?


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## andrew1883 (Apr 26, 2008)

> And the percentage seems right: 30 minutes displays as <1% and 2.05Gb. It can't be both on my little 320Gb/"45" hour unit.


I think it's right (well, consistent), 1% would be 3.2Gb so it's <1% whether it's 2.05Gb or 400Mb. I just tried downloading to PC and then deleting from TiVo and downloading from PC. Now the size is reporting correctly, and I'm not totally sure from the discussion in this thread if this bug is having an impact on TiVo's willingness to save recordings.

I'm willing to copy back and forth (as long as I don't lose sight of the PC) if it will increase the number of recordings locally on the TiVo, but I don't want to do it if internally the TiVo is counting that 30min of SD as ~400Mb.

Thanks!
=aw


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

morac said:


> That's not correct. It doesn't matter if the program is SD or HD. There is now a minimum reported size for all shows of around 2 GB. Also the reported recording size of some shows I record in HD increased by about 25% despite being over 2 GB in length, while other shows did not increase. I think 720p recordings increased while 1080i one did not. It's possible that the TiVo is reporting the size that it thinks the recording would be if it was 1080i. In any case it's wrong.
> 
> See my post in the original thread for more details.


Yes, I see this now. All 1/2HR HD recordings from 720p sources and some from 1080i are now 4.1GB, when actual file sizes are approx 3GB


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

TiVo support responded that they were aware of the issue:

"Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support and letting us know about your affected units. Our engineering team was alerted to this issue in early December. Currently, they are working on resolving the various bug issues in 20.2.2. We do not have an ETA at this time on when the next SW update will be released. We do apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you and will continue to track these issues with the ultimate goal to resolve them with another update."​


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## 1209tm (Jul 13, 2012)

I initially thought my unit was defective when I noticed the identical file sizes (2.05GB) for different show lengths, still really not sure if so. From what I so far found on the matter, the Fall Update started this issue...DO all Premiers including 4 and xl4 have this problem? And will we have to wait for Tivo software update and hope for a fix?


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## Mike-Wolf (Feb 25, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> Observation from using Desktop. Premiere set to 1080i only. Record a 1080i show and it will use around 7.5GB per hour. A 720P show needs about 3GB - 3.5GB.
> 
> I enabled 480i and selected an SD channel. The size, while still recording a 30 minute show on NBC, was your 2,100MB from the start. The Duration was incrementing. My AVR shows 480i and screen looks like it also. Half way through recording I set the output back to 1080i. After the recording finished I began a transfer to my laptop. During the transfer the Duration started at 30 minutes and the size displayed an increasing amount. The size after the transfer finished was 509MB.
> 
> I don't understand the results so I can't make a conclusion. I never record SD with the TiVo. Is it possible that you are looking at the size on the TiVo and not the size after the transfer? It's probable the size displayed on the TiVo is incorrect.


But setting the display resolution to 1080i only shouldn't have anything to do with anything because if you are recording a show that is broadcast in 1080i/p it would be a bigger file size then a show of the same length on a channel broadcast in 720p.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Mike-Wolf said:


> But setting the display resolution to 1080i only shouldn't have anything to do with anything because if you are recording a show that is broadcast in 1080i/p it would be a bigger file size then a show of the same length on a channel broadcast in 720p.


Is that what kmttg shows you? The issue is only with small SD shows and only with the TiVo display of the size. The file size is a function of bit rate and time, not the resolution of the broadcast. TiVo and most other DVRs all work that way. You like 1080i. If you record Touch on Fox/720p and an old Gunsmoke on NBC/1080i, Touch will be larger. It's a big world. Some people only get SD digital cable or want to record small SD shows to keep the aspect ratio.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Changing the _*display*_ resolution has absolutely no effect on recording. As the name implies, all it changes is what the TiVo puts out. Digital sources are recorded as is.


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## Mike-Wolf (Feb 25, 2013)

lpwcomp said:


> Changing the _*display*_ resolution has absolutely no effect on recording. As the name implies, all it changes is what the TiVo puts out. Digital sources are recorded as is.


That's what I was saying.


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## Mike-Wolf (Feb 25, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> Is that what kmttg shows you? The issue is only with small SD shows and only with the TiVo display of the size. The file size is a function of bit rate and time, not the resolution of the broadcast. TiVo and most other DVRs all work that way. You like 1080i. If you record Touch on Fox/720p and an old Gunsmoke on NBC/1080i, Touch will be larger. It's a big world. Some people only get SD digital cable or want to record small SD shows to keep the aspect ratio.


I agree that bitrate does make a big difference in file size, by which I mean space taken by the recording on the TiVo hard drive. I assume that the bitrate would be different based on the resolution of the program because there is more visual data in a 1080i/p video then 720p I'm guessing?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Mike-Wolf said:


> I agree that bitrate does make a big difference in file size, by which I mean space taken by the recording on the TiVo hard drive. I assume that the bitrate would be different based on the resolution of the program because there is more visual data in a 1080i/p video then 720p I'm guessing?


I can't seem to find where the files size, when dealing with a 480i 30min show, ISN'T bad. View the file residing on the TiVo with TiVo, Desktop, or kmttg and it displays that 2.05 or 2.10 GB. Move the file to a PC and it is now 780MB.

I made 10 30min recordings on my 320GB Premiere. Each was 2.05GB and said <1% used. All 10 added up to just over 20GB and under My Shows to disk use went from 21% to 29%. That's wrong also. I'm not in the mood to fill up my drive to see if the capacity displayed can exceed 100% but you are welcome to try. Floating point math can be hard to program.

I did find one disturbing factor. The bit rate for CW 480i is 9.8MBs. If that is correct my ABC station at 720p has a problem. Also, if the 1080i/p and 720p shows of 1hour were a fixed size why bother to show it. Every show is different, even a repeat, since commercials will change the size slightly.

It seems you are speculating based on the display from the TiVo. I am observing the results of testing with several tools.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I suspect most premiere customers record in HD. HD makes sense even if you plan on using TTG to transfer the show to an iPad. Probably the reason why there isn't much talk about the issue and why it seems to be a low priority.

Cable systems are starting to encrypt all stations, including OTA. There isn't any reason why a cable system has to even carry SD channels. A HD box will output lower resolutions for customers using non-HD TV sets. I don't know of any cable systems which are currently doing it.

Tivo needs to "make up" a size for deciding how much room might be needed to record a show and if any existing shows have to be deleted. Is it possible the 2Gig minimum size evidently being used for estimating SD program size is never updated with the actual size after the recording is completed?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lew said:


> Cable systems are starting to encrypt all stations, including OTA. There isn't any reason why a cable system has to even carry SD channels. A HD box will output lower resolutions for customers using non-HD TV sets. I don't know of any cable systems which are currently doing it.


There are still a lot of SD only boxes out there, including all of those DTA's. If you get an HD box from Comcast, not only is the monthly cost more than a DTA, a $10/mo "HD Technology fee" will be added to your account.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lew said:


> I suspect most premiere customers record in HD. HD makes sense even if you plan on using TTG to transfer the show to an iPad. Probably the reason why there isn't much talk about the issue and why it seems to be a low priority.
> 
> Cable systems are starting to encrypt all stations, including OTA. There isn't any reason why a cable system has to even carry SD channels. A HD box will output lower resolutions for customers using non-HD TV sets. I don't know of any cable systems which are currently doing it.
> 
> Tivo needs to "make up" a size for deciding how much room might be needed to record a show and if any existing shows have to be deleted. Is it possible the 2Gig minimum size evidently being used for estimating SD program size is never updated with the actual size after the recording is completed?


*Is it possible the 2Gig minimum size evidently being used for estimating SD program size is never updated with the actual size after the recording is completed?*

It is updated. On the PC, not the Tivo.

I can record a 30min HD program and get about 3-4Mb, not the constant 2.05 displayed for SD and, perhaps, used internally. As for "make up", I never saw software that made a good guess.

Simple test. Find some SD content and keep recording until your drive gets full. Then see if the storage used equals the storage displayed. BTW, recording 1hr SD shows will get you 4.10Gb. That's a fixed number too. Also, content counts. Like many others I get 1080i on all channels. The SD mirror channels, which may go to heaven soon (but not tomorrow) are a good source of SD content.

There isn't any reason a cable company has to carry analog. But they do. Maybe the AARP has a lobby for cable? All cable is local.

At least we can agree that this is a low priority problem but fun for speculation.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> There isn't any reason a cable company has to carry analog. But they do. Maybe the AARP has a lobby for cable? All cable is local.


_*Some*_ still do. But a lot, including the local Comcast, have converted to all digital. And more will follow.


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## lynnalexandra (Apr 27, 2009)

Hi,

I'm checking back on this thread because it's now June - and no software update to fix this issue. I have three tivo premiers (2TB each). And I absolutely record in SD for programs I want to save so I can save 2700 hours of programming and not 300+ hours. But with the wrong file size being interpreted by Tivo, my Tivo's are showing 95-99% full when, in fact, there's less than 1TB of programming on them. All three of my Tivo's are over 95% now. Transferring them back and forth is a ridiculous waste of time.

When I had called Tivo in February, they told me it would be fixed in the spring update. Has there been a spring update? or is it yet to come? Have there been any developments on this issue that just weren't posted back here in the past couple of months?

Thanks.
Lynn.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lynnalexandra said:


> When I had called Tivo in February, they told me it would be fixed in the spring update. Has there been a spring update? or is it yet to come? Have there been any developments on this issue that just weren't posted back here in the past couple of months?
> 
> Thanks.
> Lynn.


There's an entire thread about the spring update. This particular problem does seem to have been fixed but others have not and there are some new issues.


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## lynnalexandra (Apr 27, 2009)

Thanks so much for your response. This issue wasn't fixed on my Tivo's. They still report 2.1 GB for a 1/2 hour sd sitcom.

I'll check out the other thread now.

Thank you.
Lynn.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

lynnalexandra said:


> Thanks so much for your response. This issue wasn't fixed on my Tivo's. They still report 2.1 GB for a 1/2 hour sd sitcom.
> 
> I'll check out the other thread now.
> 
> ...


Then you dont have the update yet


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

lynnalexandra said:


> Thanks so much for your response. This issue wasn't fixed on my Tivo's. They still report 2.1 GB for a 1/2 hour sd sitcom.
> 
> I'll check out the other thread now.
> 
> ...


The fix isn't retroactive. Only new recordings made after the update will have the correct size.


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## tyrocker (May 14, 2002)

Tivo FINALLY fixed the problem of everything recording at 2.05 GB and now in their miraculous wisdom, they have made things WORSE!!! Now there is plenty of free space on the "premiere" (AKA the biggest waste of space on earth) and many shows are being mysteriously deleted because of "not enough space".
This is THE WORST RESOLUTION to a problem I have ever in my life seen.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

tyrocker said:


> Tivo FINALLY fixed the problem of everything recording at 2.05 GB and now in their miraculous wisdom, they have made things WORSE!!! Now there is plenty of free space on the "premiere" (AKA the biggest waste of space on earth) and many shows are being mysteriously deleted because of "not enough space".
> This is THE WORST RESOLUTION to a problem I have ever in my life seen.


I am not seeing this on 20.3.1

EDIT: I do see some yellow dots every now and again on the oldest recordings and I usually just reboot when I see these and they return to green.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

compnurd said:


> I would imagine it is not the networks but your cable company. They control how much they compress all channels on there system I have always averaged about 5GB for a 1 hour show. My cable company compresses video very little


This is only partly true because it is also up to the source broadcaster as well. Sometimes the service provider just passing it along unaltered.


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