# Tivo is blaming V53 error on SNR ratio?



## barrett14

I have been reading that there isn't such a thing as too high a SNR... 

I am getting V53 errors on random channels at random times. My signal strength is in the low 90's and my SNR is between 37-40. Tivo is telling me that the SNR is too high, and that I need to have Charter come out and fix it. 

They have come out several times because of intermittent internet (I think caused by the same problem) and they never fix it. 

I am not sure what to do here if Charter won't/can't fix it. Tivo will not accept my Roamio as a return since its been more than 30 days. 

Also - I have tried using various attenuators and they will not bring the SNR down. 

Please help!


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## CrispyCritter

A couple of thoughts:

1. SNR numbers aren't standard; they mean different things to different companies and nobody is sure exactly what the TiVo numbers mean. 

2. If your attenuators haven't brought the SNR down, and you still have reasonable signals, then you haven't tried powerful enough attenuators.

3. I suspect the problem is not the attenuators, but some other problem with the signal, given you internet problems. Have you noticed more problems after rainy weather, for instance? (A bad outside coaxial cable could cause your issues.) It all comes down to Charter having to fix your signal.


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## barrett14

The charter tech that came out last week said there was a signal problem that was affecting the entire building! He said that he would have to get a line tech to fix it but nothing has been done and the most frustrating part is, there is NO RECORD of what this guy told me last week. He told me that he would make notes on my account and escalate the issue but I guess he didn't do either. 

I am really worried that whoever comes out tomorrow is going to tell me that nothing is wrong since its difficult for me to "prove" that there is a problem. 

The reason that it is difficult to prove there is a problem is because the problems are all intermittent. It may be that when he comes out tomorrow, everything is working fine at that moment.


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## hornmustang

I have similar issues from time to time. Every now and then I get a Channel Not Available error. Flipping channels or changing tuners usually gets this message to go away. Although sometimes it takes a few minutes for it to clear. I have Comcast with 98-100% signal and 39-41 db SNR. Using multiple splitters I was able to get my signal down to 90-94% and SNR of 35-37 dB, and I still had the problem. So I went back to my original configuration. I think there must be a software issue or issue with TIVO's tuner design.


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## barrett14

hornmustang said:


> I have similar issues from time to time. Every now and then I get a Channel Not Available error. Flipping channels or changing tuners usually gets this message to go away. Although sometimes it takes a few minutes for it to clear. I have Comcast with 98-100% signal and 39-41 db SNR. Using multiple splitters I was able to get my signal down to 90-94% and SNR of 35-37 dB, and I still had the problem. So I went back to my original configuration. I think there must be a software issue or issue with TIVO's tuner design.


My SNR is 37 and they say that is too high and is causing the problem... They're saying its a cable company issue. Sometimes resetting the Tivo box will fix it, and other times it won't.


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## kbmb

hornmustang said:


> I have similar issues from time to time. Every now and then I get a Channel Not Available error. Flipping channels or changing tuners usually gets this message to go away. Although sometimes it takes a few minutes for it to clear. I have Comcast with 98-100% signal and 39-41 db SNR. Using multiple splitters I was able to get my signal down to 90-94% and SNR of 35-37 dB, and I still had the problem. So I went back to my original configuration. I think there must be a software issue or issue with TIVO's tuner design.





barrett14 said:


> My SNR is 37 and they say that is too high and is causing the problem... They're saying its a cable company issue. Sometimes resetting the Tivo box will fix it, and other times it won't.


I have Comcast and my signals are all 100 and the SNR is 41-43dB....I have not yet had any of these Channel Not Available errors or V53 errors.

-Kevin


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## barrett14

kbmb said:


> I have Comcast and my signals are all 100 and the SNR is 41-43dB....I have not yet had any of these Channel Not Available errors or V53 errors.
> 
> -Kevin


I have had signal issues with Charter that has been affecting my internet. I wonder if these same issues are causing the Tivo problems... and Tivo is mis diagnosing the problem with the SNR level...


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## kbmb

barrett14 said:


> I have had signal issues with Charter that has been affecting my internet. I wonder if these same issues are causing the Tivo problems... and Tivo is mis diagnosing the problem with the SNR level...


My (un)professional opinion.....yeah, it's probably whatever issue you are having with your connection in general. Tivo I think tends to blame that SNR first (like they are reading from a troubleshooting script).

I don't think you'll have a chance to solve anything until you fix the underlying issue with your connection.

-Kevin


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## barrett14

I would like to say that my series 3 tivo was working fine through all of this. I told the Tivo tech that yesterday and he dismissed it saying that the Roamio has a different processor in it.... Apparently a processor that isn't working.


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## kbmb

barrett14 said:


> I would like to say that my series 3 tivo was working fine through all of this. I told the Tivo tech that yesterday and he dismissed it saying that the Roamio has a different processor in it.... Apparently a processor that isn't working.


Same here....TivoHD for 8 years with signals pegged at 100 and never had any issues. Yes, the Roamio is all new inside, but still.....something seems off.

I also have a Comcast DVR, and I took and plugged it into the same outlet as the Roamio. Where the Roamio reported 41-43dB for SNR, the Comcast box reported 37.5dB. Now I understand different boxes report things differently, but from that standpoint it's hard to tell the cable company that anything is wrong with the line when their box works fine.

Is Charter working to fix what issues you DO know you have on the line?

-Kevin


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## barrett14

Complicated answer: 

They shoed up last Thursday and he said there was a line issue affecting the whole building (I live in a residential tower). He said that he would escalate the issue and a line tech would be out 24-48 hours to fix it. I continued to have problems so I called Charter back and they looked up the notes from my service call.... Surprise! No notes indicating the problem and nothing was escalated. Another Charter tech is supposed to be here in 20 minutes to go through all of this again... 

My worst nightmare is if this particular tech determines that there isn't anything wrong..


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## kbmb

barrett14 said:


> Complicated answer:
> 
> They shoed up last Thursday and he said there was a line issue affecting the whole building (I live in a residential tower). He said that he would escalate the issue and a line tech would be out 24-48 hours to fix it. I continued to have problems so I called Charter back and they looked up the notes from my service call.... Surprise! No notes indicating the problem and nothing was escalated. Another Charter tech is supposed to be here in 20 minutes to go through all of this again...
> 
> My worst nightmare is if this particular tech determines that there isn't anything wrong..


Good luck.....fingers crossed here!

-Kevin


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## barrett14

Thanks! I'll let you know what he says.


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## barrett14

He just left. 

Like the previous tech, he said that he can see there is a problem based on my modem history. He said he isn't sure what is causing the V53 error with the Tivo, but said that Tivo is flat out wrong by saying that 37-40 SNR is too high... he said that the higher it is, the better. He said 35 would be on the low end, as Tivo suggests that its optimal. 

He said he's going to have a line tech come out within 48 hours and check the line... A line tech has been out before but nothing improved. I really hope they fix this.


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## lessd

barrett14 said:


> Complicated answer:
> 
> They shoed up last Thursday and he said there was a line issue affecting the whole building (I live in a residential tower). He said that he would escalate the issue and a line tech would be out 24-48 hours to fix it. I continued to have problems so I called Charter back and they looked up the notes from my service call.... Surprise! No notes indicating the problem and nothing was escalated. Another Charter tech is supposed to be here in 20 minutes to go through all of this again...
> 
> My worst nightmare is if this particular tech determines that there isn't anything wrong..


With digital one can't see if the cable signal has any AC component on it, I had this problem once in old days and it showed up as a line going through my TV picture, the cable people installed a ground isolator at my home cable input and that fixed the problem.


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## kbmb

barrett14 said:


> He just left.
> 
> Like the previous tech, he said that he can see there is a problem based on my modem history. He said he isn't sure what is causing the V53 error with the Tivo, but said that Tivo is flat out wrong by saying that 37-40 SNR is too high... he said that the higher it is, the better. He said 35 would be on the low end, as Tivo suggests that its optimal.
> 
> He said he's going to have a line tech come out within 48 hours and check the line... A line tech has been out before but nothing improved. I really hope they fix this.


Well hopefully that's some progress in that at least he saw something.

I think Tivo uses the SNR value in relation to overall signal level since they don't give users the ability to see the actual level.

-Kevin


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## MrPlastic

I have a HD XL, a Premiere XL and a Roamio Pro. I have noticed V53 errors on the Roamio when I reboot or get an update and all tuners are on the same channel. It is easily remedied by changing the channel(s). 
The Premiere is nearest the drop and gets Mid 70s channel strength with about 33 SNR, the HD XL is next closest and gets high eighties with 34 SNR. The Roamio is at the end of a 25 foot cable and get 95 signal strength and 36-40 SNR. 
My provider is a smaller firm Grande in Texas. 
I have some times gotten the V53 error on the other units but it has never been a major problem. 
I used to have Time Warner and a tuning adapter. I went through 4-5 technicians telling me I had a strong signal which I did. But I had channel unavailable messages all the time. I was lucky Grande was available and they use Tivos as their DVR. They also don't use tuning adapters. 
I would suspect your Provider rather than the Tivo. I agree with the Tech saying that 37 SNR is not too high.


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## barrett14

MrPlastic - What do I do when Tivo is telling me anything over 35 is too high and the culprit, and then I have Charter saying that 37+ is great?


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## CrispyCritter

barrett14 said:


> MrPlastic - What do I do when Tivo is telling me anything over 35 is too high and the culprit, and then I have Charter saying that 37+ is great?


You ignore the disagreement until you have evidence. The Charter tech has no idea what 37 means for TiVo - it does not mean the same thing as it does on Charter equipment (this has been mentioned to you before).

Until you show that attenuation works, the Charter tech will be unconvinced by the TiVo tech. So far, you haven't experimented enough to say anything about attenuation.

As I've said, I suspect your problem is unrelated to attenuation and is related to your internet problems. Just have your Charter techs concentrate on that. But it wouldn't hurt for you to pursue attenuation tests on the side.


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## danthefan

I'm having similar issues with TWC in Raleigh. Some channels periodically won't tune including ABC, NBC, HGTV, etc. If I change the channel and change it back it will usually tune the channel in.

TWC asked me to plug the cable directly into the TiVo and bypass the tuning adapter to see if the channel worked, but it didn't. The channel wouldn't come in until I changed the channel away and back. Of course the channel tunes in just fine on my TWC cable box.

TiVo also told me my signal strength was too high and that it would damage my TiVo. TWC is saying my signal strength is too low based on the numbers on the tuning adapter diagnostics. I'm not sure TiVo knows what they are talking about here.

I have a service call scheduled for this Saturday for TWC, not sure what they will do. Of course my TiVo Premiere XL worked just fine with the same tuning adapter, cable card and signal strength.

Daniel


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## djjuice

I'm using frontier fios in WA. I had a constant 41dB on my SNR range (solid 100% signal). I put in the POE Filter for MoCA along with a 20dB attenuator which dropped my levels to 90% signal and 35dB for SNR, so far I havent seen any Macro noise on my tv, i'd used to see them every so often even after getting the updated cable card. Hope this helps


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## MrPlastic

Hi barrett14 I agree with CrispyCritter and just wanted to share my experience to give you a perspective. My experience shows me that SNR 37 is not too high but I may be wrong. The Roamio tuner is definitely different and that is why I shared about having one on a long run that is still getting a strong signal. 
When I had troubles with my former provider the only solution I had was to switch providers. If I lived 2 blocks north of where I live I wouldn't be able to do that because my present provider doesn't offer service that far north. So I got lucky. But I think you would waste your time with complaining to Tivo. 
Sorry not to have a solution just wanted to say that I am finding SNR 37+ doesn't give me the same problems you are experiencing.


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## hershey4

If I am getting error V53 on my Premiere-4, but not on my Mini (same channel, same moment in time), does that suggest anything? 

It made me wonder about my whole-house Moca adapter, but not exactly sure how/why/if that plays into anything. I know that Moca runs at 1.15ghz and I only have a 1ghz splitter. I was told by Tivo tech support that is okay, but maybe not.

I'll go check out my SNRs. Is that by tuner? 

I don't get the V53 often, but boy is it annoying. I have become so dependent on that live buffer, I can hardly watch tv without it.


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## CrispyCritter

hershey4 said:


> If I am getting error V53 on my Premiere-4, but not on my Mini (same channel, same moment in time), does that suggest anything?
> 
> It made me wonder about my whole-house Moca adapter, but not exactly sure how/why/if that plays into anything. I know that Moca runs at 1.15ghz and I only have a 1ghz splitter. I was told by Tivo tech support that is okay, but maybe not.
> 
> I'll go check out my SNRs. Is that by tuner?


Moca should be independent of an overpowered SNR causing V53, so that doesn't need to be worried about here. SNR would cause problems only within the tuners on your Premiere.

If you have overpowered signal problems, then having two tuners on the Premiere tuned to the same channel (one being sent to your Mini, one for viewing on the Premiere) could very easily cause more problems. Those problems could show up as V53 errors on either or both tuners.

SNR is by tuner within the DVR Diagnostics menu (found by a couple of paths; I tend to use the one System Information.)


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## hershey4

CrispyCritter said:


> ...[]... having two tuners on the Premiere tuned to the same channel ...[]... could very easily cause more problems. Those problems could show up as V53 errors on either or both tuners. ...


That is interesting... its very possible - my viewing habits are strongly biased to ABC. I will check that out.

All my SNRs between 35-37. All my signal strengths were 88-91. Both stats are mostly fluctuating all the time... that was surprising (to me).

V53 channel and non-v53 channels seemed nearly identical. I would prefer all those screens in a nice spreadsheet side by side . Hard to compare in scroll-down fashion to state that precisely.


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## palover

I'm having 'channel not available' issues and it has nothing to do with Tivo since I'm getting it in the bedroom where we still have a Time Warner DVR. They sent a contractor tech out and he said he had plenty of previous work experience with cable and TW. He said that cable and other hardware behind boxes can go bad after just a few years, or that a lightning strike can affect the whole block. Groups of channels can drop out at random times, showing 'not available', and that's what we've experienced in the bedroom on multiple TW DRV's, while we've had no issues in the den, where the cabling has been updated and 'balanced'. Our cable run from the den to the bedroom likely needs to be replaced.

The tech said we need a TW tech and their fancy, expensive meter (which his co. doesn't have) to check our system. From what he said, they have the ability to find problems even if you're not getting any 'channel not available' issues at the time. 

I know when we had the den area upgraded that there was no problem needed to spot the outdated cabling and splitters, since the problem I called them in for turned out to be my wireless router.


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## duncan7

I have Charter in Northeast Georgia and my dual-tuner Premiere started throwing V53 errors about two weeks ago. My new Roamio plus arrived yesterday; I'll set it up tonight and report if the problems get better or worse.

Surprisingly enough, I griped on twitter about the error coming up during MNF and posted a picture of a frozen Aaron Rodgers, then got an @mention from the @Charter account a day or so later. Could it be that that account is being resurrected?


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## patrickthickey

New(ish) Roamio, Comcast is the service provider.

I reported an evening of Error 53 activity to the forums.tivo.com. Two weeks later, I received a reply which struck me as being a bit of a wild guess. 

That is, as I reported my S/N as being 39-40 as part of the "this is what was happening when" description. The first thing I was told was that "that's too high a S/N, it should be 36 and error 53 is related to the cable card".

I replied and explained the six tuners are all over the map with S/N and with a 6db attenuator slapped onto the line, a couple of the tuners dropped, and a couple stayed the same. I asked him how to specifically reduced S/N and received nothing in reply. 

Comcast brought a new X1 DVR when they set up my service, not knowing I was a Tivo user. So he set things up and used the diagnostics on the X1 - which was fine as it's their damn network and if it works for their box, it should work on the Tivo. He tweaked my feed to be 37db, which he said was optimum for their X1, and it was reflected on the unit's diagnostic screen.

My Roamio, as I said, showed 39-40 on the same feed.

I think the disparity is causing some confusion and thrashing about.

I reseated my cable card, rebooted and haven't seen the issue again. I have left the 6db attenuator in place and will not remove it until I start seeing issues. 

I would really like a formal statement from Tivo on this. I speculate the reported S/N is like an idiot light on the dash of your car....it indicates a pulse but little else.


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## mburnno

kbmb said:


> My (un)professional opinion.....yeah, it's probably whatever issue you are having with your connection in general. Tivo I think tends to blame that SNR first (like they are reading from a troubleshooting script).
> 
> I don't think you'll have a chance to solve anything until you fix the underlying issue with your connection.
> 
> -Kevin


I been looking at these forums for a while now and I can honestly say that Tivo has dropped the ball on there newest DVR. I have been super critical about Tivo given this is their 5th generation box and should know by now everybody who calls up is not wrong or be to quick to dismiss something because it does not fit in to the steps for what could be wrong according to their troubleshooting script.

I spent over two weeks trying to convince their own Tech support that the problem resided on their end and not mine. It was only after I jumped through all of their hoops did they agree that Yes indeed it was on their side and I was missing part of the Tivo software. The thing that pissed me off was the fact I told them I have miss-matching settings on both of the Roamio's I owned and I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. So stick with your fight until you get your problem fixed.


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## moyekj

I call BS on the SNR threshold the CSRs so quickly jump on. My SNR readings are 42 or higher on all 6 tuners with signal strengths pegged at 100 most of the time and I haven't had tuning issues with my Roamio Pro.


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## HarperVision

moyekj said:


> I call BS on the SNR threshold the CSRs so quickly jump on. My SNR readings are 42 or higher on all 6 tuners with signal strengths pegged at 100 most of the time and I haven't had tuning issues with my Roamio Pro.


I second your BS, and raise you a horse-patty. Having more actual signal than noise (SNR) "should" always be a good thing. In tivo's case, who the hell knows?


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## 1283

I can reproduce V53 by doing this:

1. Set up 6 recordings on different channels at the same time.
2. In the middle of the 6 recordings, reset the TiVo.
3. When the TiVo comes back and continues the recordings, I get V53 on one of the channels.

Same result if the CableCard is reset (by the cable company?). I have not encountered V53 other than these two cases. My SNRs are 39-41. I just bought an attenuator and will repeat the test when I get the chance.


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## sheshechic

I have charter and get the channels not available too. In my area it's Charter's fault. They're trying to move channels up to achieve all digital and 150 HD channels in all areas. I suspect that and occasional odd problems with the head end. One time the low end channel was available while the HD wasn't. PIA trying to get someone to talk to my head end through the call center. 

Do you have a signal booster? If not see if you can get the tech to install one for you, it may help and then again, it may not, but at least you'll rule out other problems. It helped with picture quality when they did our new install after coming back from Directv.


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## NYRCN

mburnno said:


> I been looking at these forums for a while now and I can honestly say that Tivo has dropped the ball on there newest DVR. I have been super critical about Tivo given this is their 5th generation box and should know by now everybody who calls up is not wrong or be to quick to dismiss something because it does not fit in to the steps for what could be wrong according to their troubleshooting script.
> 
> I spent over two weeks trying to convince their own Tech support that the problem resided on their end and not mine. It was only after I jumped through all of their hoops did they agree that Yes indeed it was on their side and I was missing part of the Tivo software. The thing that pissed me off was the fact I told them I have miss-matching settings on both of the Roamio's I owned and I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. So stick with your fight until you get your problem fixed.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am having the same issue with Roamio who freezes. The signal attenuation seems to work. But then no more internet on the box when having an attenuator on the line. I would like try your "mburnno " solution of having TiVo installed the missing software on my Roamio.

Please provide us with the steps on how to have TiVo add that software. And what software should we ask for.

Thanks


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## ahwman

Folks this has NOTHING to do with high SNR levels, period. TiVo is well aware of the V53 errors and last I heard they are suggesting it is a problem with Tuning Adapters and are working with both Motorola and Cisco to get it corrected. I only experience these errors on SDV channels. I have to reset my TA at least once/week to correct this issue and it's VERY frustrating. TiVo assures me that this will get fixed, whether or not is does - only time will tell...


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## hershey4

ahwman said:


> Folks this has NOTHING to do with high SNR levels, period. TiVo is well aware of the V53 errors and last I heard they are suggesting it is a problem with Tuning Adapters and are working with both Motorola and Cisco to get it corrected. I only experience these errors on SDV channels. I have to reset my TA at least once/week to correct this issue and it's VERY frustrating. TiVo assures me that this will get fixed, whether or not is does - only time will tell...


I don't have a TA and I get V53s


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## kbmb

HarperVision said:


> I second your BS, and raise you a horse-patty. Having more actual signal than noise (SNR) "should" always be a good thing. In tivo's case, who the hell knows?


Right huh?! Who designs any electronic device where something "better" is actually worse?!

If they are trying to justify having too hot of a signal....then just put in an actual signal level, not this percentage crap.

And really....when you can plug in your cable companies box into the line your Tivo is on...and the cable guy tells you everything is perfect, how can Tivo then blame your setup?!?

What I find interesting is that so far no one has been able to narrow down why some people are having these issues....where others (like me with high signals and SNRs) aren't.

-Kevin


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## hershey4

It could very well be that error V53 is generated by many causes. IF anyone knows anything about programming, this basic error handling algorithm may explain V53 with a diversity of root causes:

IF problem-a
........generate V1 error
ELSE if problem-b
........generate V2 error
ELSE if problem-c
........generate V3 error
ELSE if problem-d
........generate V4 error
ELSE
........generate V53 error // the catchall error!!!


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## hornmustang

I don't have a tuning adapter, and I also get the V53 error.

Any chance this error is related to the cablecard firmware? I have a SA/Cisco card running a firmware version from 2007 which doesn't work with 6 tuners. So I am dialed down to 4 tuners for now.


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## JohnParks

I too an having V-58 errors. I am on Charter Cable in East Tennessee. I spent at least six or seven hours with various tech personnel trying to resolve this problem. Tivo tech support thinks it's a tuning adaptor firmware problem.


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## 1283

JohnParks said:


> I too an having V-58 errors.


This thread is about V53, not V58.


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## andyf

JohnParks said:


> I too an having V-58 errors. I am on Charter Cable in East Tennessee. I spent at least six or seven hours with various tech personnel trying to resolve this problem. Tivo tech support thinks it's a tuning adaptor firmware problem.


This thread is regarding "V53" errors. There is another thread "Tuners 5 & 6 Not Authorized" which you can follow regarding "V58" errors.


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## hershey4

I've noticed an interesting behavior that seems to be consistent when I get V53's. First of all, I only get it when viewing high-def. I switch the channel to the same channel in Standard-Def then switch back to the channel in high-def. And the V53's are gone and I can start a new live buffer. Of course, its a bummer that I didn't have an original live buffer when the V53 kicked in, but at least I can start a new buffer. 

(Maybe I could have switched to any channel, but I haven't tried that) 

p.s. apologies if this workaround has already been mentioned. I read this thread awhile ago.


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## ltxi

I find most all of this discussion very strange. I can understand the possibility of too high signal strength hurting a/the tuners head, but a too high SNR?


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## moyekj

ltxi said:


> I find most all of this discussion very strange. I can understand the possibility of too high signal strength hurting a/the tuners head, but a too high SNR?


 The problem is TiVo doesn't supply a proper signal level number. Especially on the Roamio my signal levels all max out at 100, so no indication of relative strength. A high SNR could indicate a high Signal level and normal Noise level such that the Signal level is higher than the maximum signal level supported. Of course a high SNR could also come from a normal signal level and a below average noise level in which case you are fine.
It looks like support reps are told to go on the assumption that high SNR means too high of a signal level which may be a valid assumption in some cases, but not in others. Put another way, TiVo is assuming some baseline noise level and then extrapolating what maximum SNR ratio keeps the S below their maximum threshold. If diagnostics provided the S & N numbers instead of just the ratio that would be more useful information.


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## ltxi

Ok...I'm good with that. Thanks.


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## hershey4

I am not convinced that SNR or S or N is involved as others have theorized. How would that explain my workaround scenario a few back? Surely my signal did not change in the 2-3 seconds it took me to switch channels and switch back.


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## moyekj

hershey4 said:


> I am not convinced that SNR or S or N is involved as others have theorized. How would that explain my workaround scenario a few back? Surely my signal did not change in the 2-3 seconds it took me to switch channels and switch back.


 My post was speculating on how TiVo justifies a high SNR as a possibly too strong signal strength, not that a high SNR is indeed the source problem for every V53 error.


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## NorthAlabama

i began receiving the v53 errors following a software update from tivo - same signal strength, snr, cc firmware, cabling. i'm not saying the error isn't snr related, but for me it was the software update that triggered the error, and a subsequent software update improved the issue to where it hasn't happened in a long time.


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## HarperVision

NorthAlabama said:


> i began receiving the v53 errors following a software update from tivo - same signal strength, snr, cc firmware, cabling. i'm not saying the error isn't snr related, but for me it was the software update that triggered the error, and a subsequent software update improved the issue to where it hasn't happened in a long time.


Exactly! I've been saying that from the beginning because I initially experienced the same tuning issues with a new Ceton InfiniTV6 PCie tuner and I had their support engineers give me a new firmware and it was fixed within a matter of hours! They stated it was the way the tuner was messaging the cablecard and TA.

Hello...McTiVo?!?!?!


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## tim316

has anyone ever fixed this issue yet??please reply


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## tim316

so far i replaced 2 cable cards and 4 tuning adaptors.tivo told me i might have a signal problem.my signal str is 85-87% and snr is 35db.i rewired my rg6 to quad shielded rg6 and new 2ghz splitters.i even tried a home depot RCA brand 10db signal amp(this didnt make any difference at all and didnt up the signal or snr)i am waiting for time warner to send a tech out to check signal for the past 2 weeks and they are scheduled for next week.3 week wait,ridiculous!


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## barrett14

After not getting any V53 errors for about a month, all of a sudden every channel has it. My SNR is 38-39 and Tivo was saying it needs to be 36. Charter has disagreed with this, saying that 40 is optimal. 

Tim316 - if they are blaming 35db SNR then Tivo is just blaming everything! I am so sick of this but I don't know what to do??? Tivo won't step up and fix the problem. Everything worked just fine with my Tivo series 3 so I don't think its a signal issue from Charter, OR if it is, Tivo should still be able to handle it since the series 3 worked just fine before. 

I AM SO FRUSTRATED WITH THIS!!!!!!!


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## patrickthickey

I put a 6db attenuator onto the line feeding the Roamio.

For the sake of argument, I was one of those 40db S/N and 100% signal folks who was seeing random, short duration Error 53 instances.

Regardless of what the Tivo diagnostics screens report, or what Comcast says is optimal, I have not see an Error 53 since I installed this barrel connector.

It has been around six weeks. FYI

patrick


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## barrett14

Patrick - I have also tried various attenuators but nothing has solved the problem. 

I just got off the phone with Tivo though and they are going to send me a new box. I was attempting to troubleshoot with him and my tivo kept locking up and not responding to the remote's commands (or would do so after a 20 second lag). 

I really hope the replacement box helps....


----------



## jrock

I also had a 100 signal with 42 SNR and was having lockups and occasional V53 errors. I have comcast with Scientific Atlanta cable cards. I have 2 Premieres and the signal is fine on those. TiVo suggested an attenuator so I ordered a combo pack of 3,6,10, and 20 online for $6 since i couldn't find any local. I put a 10 on and it was still 100 / 40. I put a 20 on and it was 83 / 33 and since then I haven't seen a V53 error. It didn't stop the lockups but the software update that just came out may have fixed that. Smarthome has the attenuator pad mix bag online if anyone wants to try it and can't find any local.

-Joe


----------



## crxssi

I just got some V53 errors for the first time (I am fairly sure it was V53) and rebooting the tuning adapter fixed it. Had some other error a few weeks ago (can't remember the number) and same thing- rebooting the TA fixed it.

Very irritating. It is like I have to reboot the TA every few weeks. Makes me want to just slap a timed power adapter on it and have it reboot the TA every Sun night or something.


----------



## sheisler28

barrett14 said:


> Patrick - I have also tried various attenuators but nothing has solved the problem.
> 
> I just got off the phone with Tivo though and they are going to send me a new box. I was attempting to troubleshoot with him and my tivo kept locking up and not responding to the remote's commands (or would do so after a 20 second lag).
> 
> I really hope the replacement box helps....


Did you get your replacement box? Did it work? I have been having similar issues and we've done the line checks, gone through several cable cards and tuning adaptors. Tivo is now sending a new box and I am so praying that will work since the current box is virtually inoperable at this point!


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## simon7

Have had Tivo for nearly a decade. Recenty got a new Roamio and two Minis. For the first week, everything worked perfectly. I recorded tons of shows without issue and no errors. 

Now, in the last several days, I've I"m getting v53 errors. Maybe worse, I've just noticed several shows were partially recorded (like 2/3 or less) with no conflicts or reason at all. The shows are just missing big chucks, like 20 or 30 minutes. 

I just dropped close to a grand for these boxes, and I'm considering simply returning before I get locked into this mess.


----------



## jrock

simon7 said:


> Have had Tivo for nearly a decade. Recenty got a new Roamio and two Minis. For the first week, everything worked perfectly. I recorded tons of shows without issue and no errors.
> 
> Now, in the last several days, I've I"m getting v53 errors. Maybe worse, I've just noticed several shows were partially recorded (like 2/3 or less) with no conflicts or reason at all. The shows are just missing big chucks, like 20 or 30 minutes.
> 
> I just dropped close to a grand for these boxes, and I'm considering simply returning before I get locked into this mess.


I had almost the same problem. Worked fine for a week then constant lockups and reboots at least once a day or more for the next few weeks.

While working with TiVo Tech support I found my SNR and Signal was way to high. So I got some attenuators to fix that. Ended up getting it down to the correct signals using a 20db attenuator. That still didn't fix it so I ended up getting the TiVo replaced and at the same time I got a new cable card. That was the Monday before thanksgiving I got the new one all setup and it hasn't had a problem since.

So I'm not sure if there's just a batch of bad TiVo's out there or if its something else. Maybe the signal boosters in the TiVo causes some kind of over load and burns something out and now the new one with the attenuator isn't overloading something after a week of a hot signal? Not sure but knock on wood, its been perfect ever since doing all 3 of those things.

-Joe


----------



## DigitalDawn

My guess is that it was the cable card and not the TiVo.

Glad the new hardware is working now.


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## Keddie

Just got a new Pro as I'm switching back to TiVo and the box gives me V53 errors all over the place. Signal Strenght is 93% with SNR around 36-39 and TiVo CS is also blaming the provider. Interesting note I did not get the same errors with Frontier FIOS as the provider but now have issues with Comcast. We are in the process of moving to Comcast due to the lack of On Demand with FIOS but now I must reconsider. 

FIOS signal was 98% with SNR of 40-42 and didn't appear to have the problem. I'll put it back onto the Frontier signal tonight to see if the errors come back.


----------



## ahwman

Keddie said:


> Just got a new Pro as I'm switching back to TiVo and the box gives me V53 errors all over the place. Signal Strenght is 93% with SNR around 36-39 and TiVo CS is also blaming the provider. Interesting note I did not get the same errors with Frontier FIOS as the provider but now have issues with Comcast. We are in the process of moving to Comcast due to the lack of On Demand with FIOS but now I must reconsider.
> 
> FIOS signal was 98% with SNR of 40-42 and didn't appear to have the problem. I'll put it back onto the Frontier signal tonight to see if the errors come back.


Are you using a tuning adapter? If so, Motorola or Cisco?


----------



## Cap'n Preshoot

I don't have a T/A. However I have the V53 errors frequently. My signal strength was 90% and SNR was 36. Today I put a 10db pad inline which dropped the signal strength to 82% and 33db SNR. I'll run like this for a while & report back.


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## shrike4242

I had this come up when troubleshooting a Tivo Premiere whose tuners had gone belly up (numerous V58 errors with a paired CC + TA, channels that should have been SD were being tuned as their HD versions and other oddities) and Tivo suggested that having a 36-38db SNR was an issue and that it was running too hot. They suggested putting a 2-way splitter in-line to the Tivo to cut down the SNR as they wanted 32-35db.

What's a good source people have found for in-line attenuators instead of using a splitter?

One option I've found by random Google search:
http://www.markertek.com/CATV-Headend-Interface/RF-Attenuators/Pico-Digital/PPFAM-3.xhtml


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## 1283

shrike4242 said:


> What's a good source people have found for in-line attenuators instead of using a splitter?


eBay, for <$4 shipped.


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## Keddie

So line tech came out again and found the signal to my Tivo was too weak. After adding an amplifier to the line the V53 errors are gone but now I still have pixelation all over the place. WTF is going on here?


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## simon7

So... replaced the Roamio, 4 sets of cable cards, and a tech visit, yet I'm still having the same problems. I really messed up not dumping the whole Roamio concept within the first 30 days. And, previously, I had three working Premieres/HDs on the same lines for years. WTF?


----------



## ahwman

simon7 said:


> So... replaced the Roamio, 4 sets of cable cards, and a tech visit, yet I'm still having the same problems. I really messed up not dumping the whole Roamio concept within the first 30 days. And, previously, I had three working Premieres/HDs on the same lines for years. WTF?


I completely understand your frustration as I've been dealing with a very similar issue among others since I purchased my Roamio Pro. There are many people having these types of issues and TiVo is going to have to find a fix as this is simply unacceptable to deliver a product to the masses that doesn't function correctly. At this time, TiVo is working with my cable company to resolve my tuning adapter issues which forces me to power-cycle my TA every few days as I keep losing all of my SDV channels. My cable company has been able to review the log files from my TA and can prove this is a TiVo issue - so perhaps this will prompt TiVo to FINALY accept responsibility for the problem and take the necessary steps to resolve it. Think back to the days of suggestions not recording with a TA attached and TiVo blamed the cable companies for blocking tuning requests (too funny). Low and behold they finally pushed out a patch to fix the problem. Hopefully this will play out the same way...


----------



## rogmatic

There is no question that the additional tuners cause issues with the signal. The HD is rock solid. The Premiere is pretty good. The Premiere 4 tuner has major issues. I am curious whether the 6 tuner Roamio is an improvement on the 4 tuner Premiere or it if it is just worse. Any thoughts?


----------



## shrike4242

So, just to make sure I'm not over-thinking the issue on my end, if I'm getting 37-39db SNR on all of my Tivos, would I just need to add a -6db attenuator to each of them so I can drop the SNR down into the "preferred" 32-35db range?

Options I've found so far:
http://www.markertek.com/CATV-Headend-Interface/RF-Attenuators/Pico-Digital/PPFAM-3.xhtml
http://www.parts-express.com/in-line-coax-cable-tv-signal-attenuator-6-db--180-390
http://www.smarthome.com/7802/Signal-Strength-Attenuator-Pads-6-dB/p.aspx
http://www.3starinc.com/drop_in-line_attenuator.html



rogmatic said:


> There is no question that the additional tuners cause issues with the signal. The HD is rock solid. The Premiere is pretty good. The Premiere 4 tuner has major issues. I am curious whether the 6 tuner Roamio is an improvement on the 4 tuner Premiere or it if it is just worse. Any thoughts?


My Premiere XL4 has been a little odd and very seldom gets random V53 errors, though I've not had enough time with my Roamio Pro to see any evidence of it yet.

I've seen posts by others on here that they think there's an internal amplifier inside of the Roamio Plus / Pro with the six tuners to help with signal issues.


----------



## 1283

shrike4242 said:


> So, just to make sure I'm not over-thinking the issue on my end, if I'm getting 37-39db SNR on all of my Tivos, would I just need to add a -5db attenuator to each of them so I can drop the SNR down into the "preferred" 32-35db range?


No, an attenuator reduces both signal and noise levels, not the SNR directly. If the "strength" is at 100%, that may be too high. I dropped mine to around 95%. IMO, high SNR should not be an issue.


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## shrike4242

c3 said:


> No, an attenuator reduces both signal and noise levels, not the SNR directly. If the "strength" is at 100%, that may be too high. I dropped mine to around 95%. IMO, high SNR should not be an issue.


I think the strength for mine has been in the high 90% range (95-97%) when I checked on the Premiere XL I had that its tuner failed (wouldn't tune any channels correctly) and I know the Tivo rep I spoke with was fixated on the SNR being from 32-35db and that since it was 37-39db on that Tivo (and all of my other ones, as I checked later), it could have caused the issues with the tuner.

How important is it to get the SNR down into the "preferred" range of 32-35db and what's the best way to do that if the signal strength is in the middle 90% range?


----------



## 1283

You can try dropping it to 35dB, but there is no formula to tell you the attenuator you need for it. I'm using a -16dB attenuator, and my SNR is around 34-39dB.


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## shrike4242

c3 said:


> You can try dropping it to 35dB, but there is no formula to tell you the attenuator you need for it. I'm using a -16dB attenuator, and my SNR is around 34-39dB.


So, best thing to do would be to get a range of attenuators (a -8 db, -10db, -12db, -16db and -20db) and see which one gets it in the right range? Once that gets figured out, order more of the one that works best?


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## Mark Rubin

Hi

new Roamio owner here:

I used to have Tivo service 8 years ago but gave up due to Cable card issues: I am seeing the same error: and I recall these cards are easily overloaded

I am at 13 db value for attenuators now: most channels show 93-99 signal strength: if you see 100% you could be sending way too hot a signal to the box: they really should rescale the signal strength meter to be give more signal strength info

I love the new box and hope I can get this resolved...


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## Hyrax

I've been fighting this problem ever since I got my Roamio. I thought my TivoHD & original Premiere were the best things I ever put in my TV room, and just had faith that the Roamio problems were being caused by Comcast providing a bad signal. 6 visits by some very good Comcast tech, several cable cards, and one replacement Roamio later - I am now convinced otherwise. There is something wrong with the Roamio. It may be hardware, but I suspect it is in their error correction code. 

Watching the DVR diagnostics I'll see that it is possible for me to get tens of thousands of uncorrected errors in a few seconds. I believe these error bursts are the issue for me.

Comcast admits their signal quality can fluctuate at times - which is kind of like saying the sky is blue. However, my old Tivos seemed to had no problem with those fluctuations. It seems to me that the Roamio just decides to take its bat and ball and go home whenever it doesn't like the signal. In its defense, the Roamio has 3 times the number of tuners it needs to deal with, so it is three times more likely to be blasted with bad data.

I have watched live a TV signal severely breakup, go black, and a few moments later the 'Not Authorized' screen appears. 

I've tried the attenuator 'fix' and got my signal to the levels Tivo techs seem to want. With my signal at 88% and a S/N of 34 dB I get a lot more uncorrected errors, signal breakup, and eventually more V53 errors. In my experience, I get more problems if I lower the signal strength and S/N number using attenuation.


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## Hyrax

I forgot to mention that I have been keeping track of the channels that tend to get the V53 errors first. I am trying to see if taking them off my channel list makes the problem go away. I noticed that some of these channels were still close to 100% signal even with an attenuation of 12 db. I removed a specific channel and the V53s have apparently disappeared - but it has only been a week. 

My thinking is that we need a way to attenuate specific frequencies...


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## L David Matheny

Hyrax said:


> I've been fighting this problem ever since I got my Roamio. I thought my TivoHD & original Premiere were the best things I ever put in my TV room, and just had faith that the Roamio problems were being caused by Comcast providing a bad signal. 6 visits by some very good Comcast tech, several cable cards, and one replacement Roamio later - I am now convinced otherwise. There is something wrong with the Roamio. It may be hardware, but I suspect it is in their error correction code.
> 
> Watching the DVR diagnostics I'll see that it is possible for me to get tens of thousands of uncorrected errors in a few seconds. I believe these error bursts are the issue for me.
> 
> Comcast admits their signal quality can fluctuate at times - which is kind of like saying the sky is blue. However, my old Tivos seemed to had no problem with those fluctuations. It seems to me that the Roamio just decides to take its bat and ball and go home whenever it doesn't like the signal. In its defense, the Roamio has 3 times the number of tuners it needs to deal with, so it is three times more likely to be blasted with bad data.
> 
> I have watched live a TV signal severely breakup, go black, and a few moments later the 'Not Authorized' screen appears.
> 
> I've tried the attenuator 'fix' and got my signal to the levels Tivo techs seem to want. With my signal at 88% and a S/N of 34 dB I get a lot more uncorrected errors, signal breakup, and eventually more V53 errors. In my experience, I get more problems if I lower the signal strength and S/N number using attenuation.


I'm OTA only, but I've seen the same error-burst problem with my new Roamio. I think it may be due to poor allocation of priorities in the Roamio's software, with housekeeping tasks being performed in high-level code that takes too long and causes some hardware (like the tuner or demodulator chips) to not be serviced in a timely manner. It could even be as simple as inadequate disk buffering, although that seems less likely. Do your error bursts occur when you change channels or when a recording starts, with few errors occurring during the bulk of the recording? I've also had problems with a couple of strong local stations, but I haven't tried an attenuator yet.


----------



## tatergator1

Hyrax said:


> I forgot to mention that I have been keeping track of the channels that tend to get the V53 errors first. I am trying to see if taking them off my channel list makes the problem go away. I noticed that some of these channels were still close to 100% signal even with an attenuation of 12 db. I removed a specific channel and the V53s have apparently disappeared - but it has only been a week.
> 
> My thinking is that we need a way to attenuate specific frequencies...


Since you're on Comcast, what's your CableCard firmware version? Easiest way to get to it is by going to Seittings & Messages ->Account and System Info ->DVR Diagnostics and scroll towards the bottom of that page.

Many Comcast regions are running very outdated CableCard firmware which leads to V53 errors and the like. This may be the root of your particular problems.


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## Hyrax

tatergator1 said:


> Many Comcast regions are running very outdated CableCard firmware which leads to V53 errors and the like. This may be the root of your particular problems.


I forget the firmware number, but it is the one before the current version. I was told by someone in the AVS forums that the version supports 6 tuners. I'm going to try to get Comcast to update it to the latest, just to be thorough.


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## Hyrax

L David Matheny said:


> ... Do your error bursts occur when you change channels or when a recording starts, with few errors occurring during the bulk of the recording? I've also had problems with a couple of strong local stations, but I haven't tried an attenuator yet.


The data bursts seem to occur mostly when changing channels, but I have noticed at least once getting one during a recording and the recording stopped.


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## ELPHILLIPS

Reviewed all the comments here regarding signal interruption. Been a TiVo user since March 2009. Currently have a Premiere XL4 with a Roamio Plus on the way. If I experience the problem with the Roamio, it's going back. I'm in Arizona and on Cox cable with a TA. I started experiencing signal interruptions about a month ago. I haven't seen this problem on any recorded programs. Also, the signal loss seems to happen after I've been watching TV for two to three hours. Probably not heat build-up as the unit is on all the time. I have asked frinds, who do not have TiVo, if they have experienced this problem and none have had the problem. From what I see this is strictly a TiVo problem.


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## Mark Rubin

I continue to get the error: and now the CC CP screen, on several channels

I have Comcast coming tomorrow with a new card...and an X1


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## Hyrax

Mark-
The CC CP screen always means (for me, at least) that the cable card is not paired correctly with the Tivo. Based on that, I'm assuming getting a new CC should fix the problem. Everyone tells me that it sometimes takes many efforts to get a good cablecard.


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## ELPHILLIPS

Strange thing is I have been using TiVo for five years and this problem has only started in the past two months.


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## HarperVision

Hyrax said:


> Mark-
> The CC CP screen always means (for me, at least) that the cable card is not paired correctly with the Tivo. Based on that, I'm assuming getting a new CC should fix the problem. Everyone tells me that it sometimes takes many efforts to get a good cablecard.


Just because the card isn't paired correctly doesn't mean it's a bad card. It means they don't know how to pair them correctly! I had the same thing with them telling me over and over that it was a bad card, including TiVo, and I insisted that I knew it was a symptom of it not being provisioned, activated and/or paired properly on their end. In the end I was correct, they finally set it up right and I'm still using the exact same card that they said was "bad" without issue.


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## Hyrax

HarperVision is right. Pairing your existing card may also fix the problem. I figured getting a new card and having the tech talk to the office to pair it for you would be easier for you since he was already scheduled.


----------



## Jed1

Mark Rubin said:


> I continue to get the error: and now the CC CP screen, on several channels
> 
> I have Comcast coming tomorrow with a new card...and an X1


Mark,

Check your MMI screens for your CableCard as it may not be paired properly.

Cisco/SA Cards:
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2571

Motorola Cards:
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2569

NDS Cards:
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2573

Conax Cards:
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2575

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2567


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## Mark Rubin

problem resolved

Comcast resolved this for me by fixing some CC permissions

Thanks to all: I now love my Roamio


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## HarperVision

Mark Rubin said:


> problem resolved Comcast resolved this for me by fixing some CC permissions Thanks to all: I now love my Roamio


Gee what a shock, a Cablecard pairing/activation/provisioning issue after all! 

I'm happy you're all set now!


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## Hyrax

I've been plagued by station not authorized errors. I seem to have gotten rid of them by setting the Roamio to only allow 4 tuners to be used. Does this mean that a firmware update of my Cisco Cable card should be done? My current cable card is version 1.5.2_F 3001, and I've been told 1.5.3 1101 is the most recent.


----------



## IceBlue

I ordered the attenuator pack from SmartHome (http://www.smarthome.com/7800/Signal-Strength-Attenuator-Pads-Mix-Bag/p.aspx) and lowered my signal to 37dB. The signal strength bounces between 95-100% after using the 10dB attenuator, the signal was coming in at 42dB prior to adding it. It has only been a couple of days, but i haven't had any v53 errors since. MoCA speeds do not seem dramatically impacted, PHY rates are nearly the same after adding at 245/250ish.

The kit was $13 shipped, and *I'm willing to sell my unused 1/2 of the kit for $6 paypal shipped. You will get one each 3/6/10/20 dB attenuators.*
PM me if interested.


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## rjbell4

IceBlue said:


> The kit was $13 shipped, and *I'm willing to sell my unused 1/2 of the kit for $6 paypal shipped. You will get one each 3/6/10/20 dB attenuators.*
> PM me if interested.


I'm interested, but need a few more posts until I can PM you. This is post #7 ...


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## IceBlue

rjbell4 said:


> I'm interested, but need a few more posts until I can PM you. This is post #7 ...


I still have them. PM me your paypal email address and I will send you an invoice.


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## simon7

simon7 said:


> So... replaced the Roamio, 4 sets of cable cards, and a tech visit, yet I'm still having the same problems. I really messed up not dumping the whole Roamio concept within the first 30 days. And, previously, I had three working Premieres/HDs on the same lines for years. WTF?





ahwman said:


> I completely understand your frustration as I've been dealing with a very similar issue among others since I purchased my Roamio Pro. There are many people having these types of issues and TiVo is going to have to find a fix as this is simply unacceptable to deliver a product to the masses that doesn't function correctly. At this time, TiVo is working with my cable company to resolve my tuning adapter issues which forces me to power-cycle my TA every few days as I keep losing all of my SDV channels. My cable company has been able to review the log files from my TA and can prove this is a TiVo issue - so perhaps this will prompt TiVo to FINALY accept responsibility for the problem and take the necessary steps to resolve it. Think back to the days of suggestions not recording with a TA attached and TiVo blamed the cable companies for blocking tuning requests (too funny). Low and behold they finally pushed out a patch to fix the problem. Hopefully this will play out the same way...


Well, add an attenuation kit to my list of attempted fixes... Three months and numerous labor hours later and I still don't have a consistently working Roamio.


----------



## ahwman

simon7 said:


> Well, add an attenuation kit to my list of attempted fixes... Three months and numerous labor hours later and I still don't have a consistently working Roamio.


This is plain and simply a TiVo issue with the Roamio line and I now have unequivocal proof after ruling EVERY single component out with the exception of the Roamio itself. I have been working directly with the head engineer of my cable company on this issue for months now. They have even loaned me their personal Roamio for testing purposes. Every square inch of my service has been checked multiple times from the pole right to my TiVo. That said, here is my proof it is a TiVo issue.

Set up: Two TiVo Premiere's running side by side using two brand new Motorola tuning adapters with latest firmware as well as Motorola CC's also with the latest firmware. SDV channels working on both units for 3-7 days and bam, one will lose all it's SDV channels returning a V53 error. Second unit will exhibit identical behavior within a few days. Restarting/power cycling the TiVo's has no effect. The only way to restore SDV channels is to power-cycle the TA's. Now, before to say to yourself, it's the TA's failing - keep reading. If I swap the TiVo's out with the TA's without power-cycling either TA, when the TiVo's reboot - all SDV channels return until the next failure again usually 3-7 days. Keep in mind that during this time the TA's never lose sync. The head engineer believes this is either a latency issue with the TiVo's which eventually breaks the handshake between the two devices or the TiVo stops reading the carousel file on the TA itself. Power-cycling the TA or swapping the TiVo out with the other TA forces a new handshake to occur which rebuilds the connection and restores SDV channels. TiVo needs to fix this plain and simple as like many I have grown tired of the constant baby sitting my TiVo ever since my purchase...


----------



## Floridaman

According to a very reliable source at TIVO you know longer have to attenuate the signal on the new Roamios. This came directly from TIVO M. The people in support have no clue when it comes to SNR.


----------



## HarperVision

Floridaman said:


> According to a very reliable source at TIVO you know longer have to attenuate the signal on the new Roamios. This came directly from TIVO M. The people in support have no clue when it comes to SNR.


So how did they fix that without new hardware?


----------



## Floridaman

HarperVision said:


> So how did they fix that without new hardware?


I am only passing on information that was sent to me in an email.


----------



## L David Matheny

hornmustang said:


> I have similar issues from time to time. Every now and then I get a Channel Not Available error. Flipping channels or changing tuners usually gets this message to go away. Although sometimes it takes a few minutes for it to clear. I have Comcast with 98-100% signal and 39-41 db SNR. Using multiple splitters I was able to get my signal down to 90-94% and SNR of 35-37 dB, and I still had the problem. So I went back to my original configuration. I think there must be a software issue or issue with TIVO's tuner design.


My 4-tuner Roamio (OTA only) had an interesting event last night, which I might blame on a tuning adapter if I had such a thing. I noticed that the main HD channel of a local station with serious multipath problems was showing an error (V53, I think), as it does sometimes, but oddly the .2 subchannel was being received just fine on a different tuner. So I checked my 2-tuner Premiere, and it was receiving the main channel just fine. After checking back and forth a couple of times, I used channel-down to retune the Roamio's tuner lower, then channel-up to retune the problem channel, and it was immediately received perfectly. I realized afterward that I should have checked the Diagnostics screen to see if this looked similar to the odd error-counting situation I saw on March 1st, but in that case I think the signal was actually glitchy when the strangeness occurred.

I'm thinking that under some circumstances the Roamio tuner can see a glitch that it treats like an infinite loop in the data stream, causing it to seize up and stop accepting data. And I wonder if a signal strong enough to overdrive something could cause such a problem. If that sort of lockup isn't impossible by definition in the design of the modulation method, then the chipset should immediately detect when it is being overrun by data and clear its buffer. And if the chipset doesn't do that, then some task in the supporting software needs to monitor the chipset closely to detect the seized-up data-overrun condition promptly and tell the chipset to clear or retune or reset or something to clear the lockup. TiVo's programmers need to review the functional characteristics manual for the chipset and consult with the chipset engineers as necessary to get this fixed.


----------



## nooneuknow

L David Matheny said:


> My 4-tuner Roamio (OTA only) had an interesting event last night, which I might blame on a tuning adapter if I had such a thing. I noticed that the main HD channel of a local station with serious multipath problems was showing an error (V53, I think), as it does sometimes, but oddly the .2 subchannel was being received just fine on a different tuner. So I checked my 2-tuner Premiere, and it was receiving the main channel just fine. After checking back and forth a couple of times, I used channel-down to retune the Roamio's tuner lower, then channel-up to retune the problem channel, and it was immediately received perfectly. I realized afterward that I should have checked the Diagnostics screen to see if this looked similar to the odd error-counting situation I saw on March 1st, but in that case I think the signal was actually glitchy when the strangeness occurred.
> 
> I'm thinking that under some circumstances the Roamio tuner can see a glitch that it treats like an infinite loop in the data stream, causing it to seize up and stop accepting data. And I wonder if a signal strong enough to overdrive something could cause such a problem. If that sort of lockup isn't impossible by definition in the design of the modulation method, then the chipset should immediately detect when it is being overrun by data and clear its buffer. And if the chipset doesn't do that, then some task in the supporting software needs to monitor the chipset closely to detect the seized-up data-overrun condition promptly and tell the chipset to clear or retune or reset or something to clear the lockup. TiVo's programmers need to review the functional characteristics manual for the chipset and consult with the chipset engineers as necessary to get this fixed.


I've experienced issues like this as well. I have no idea what a "multipath problems" are. I posted a longer reply in the thread you referenced.


----------



## Cap'n Preshoot

I'm sorry to see that this thread has more or less died, although the problem continues.

The 10db pad I added a few months ago actually seemed to cure the V53 error problem, but at the expense of adding a new problem: severe pixellation, primarily on Comcast channel 621 (USA Network). In the TIVO DVR diagnostic screen I found that the signal level for ch. 621 was *rapidly *fluctuating all over the place from 80% down to 50% and constantly changing by dramatic value differences with each successive sample. Oddly enough other channels were solid (no fluctuation in levels) WTF/

I changed the pad to 3db which mostly cured the pixellation on 621, but levels (only on 621) continue to jump around a bit, but not as severely. USA network is again watchable, but on rare occasions will still take spells of pixellating, but only on this one ROAMIO. Our 2nd Roamio and our Premier have never had this problem with pixellation, tho the 2nd Roamio will on occasion throw a V53 error and appear to lose the channel for some period of time.

Has there been anything official from TIVO on this? I would sooner take a whipping than have to go through dealing with Comcast support again. Thanks!


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## Hyrax

I don't know if this helps or adds to the general confusion, but I got so sick of tuner errors that I decided to see if lowering the number of tuners would solve my problems. Amazingly enough it worked! I've got a Roamio Pro and for several months I was getting channels that would lose their authorization almost every day. My soluition was to reboot the Tivo every evening. Tivo support told me that the signal was too strong, but when I added attenuators half my stations were plagued with pixelation, so that wasn't a solution. Comcast support came over 5 times and said everything was well within spec.

3 months ago I lowered the number of tuners from 6 to 4 and I've yet to loose a channels authorization. I tried 5 tuners, but it still had the problem. So I'm wondering if having hot signals on too many tuners overloads something in the cable card and channels just get blocked. 

I'm not thrilled to have lost 2 tuners, but am otherwise fairly happy to have found a solution. I use a 2-tuner premiere for OTA channels and the Roamio for cable channels, and so far have had no need for 6 tuners on the Roamio.


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## Cap'n Preshoot

Thanks Hyrax.

My Roamio is only a 'basic' but (conceptually at least), what you may have accomplished by dropping the tuner count from 6 to 4 has (again conceptually) resulted in a 3db increase (doubling) of the signal strength available to the remaining 4 tuners.

To explain - - 

I have no idea how they're accomplishing the internal signal splitting in the Roamio, but at the risk of showing my ignorance about this, RF signal splitting normally requires ganging multiple 2-way splitters together to achieve the desired number of output ports. (even though it may be done inside a common housing) For example, a 4-way split requires (electronically) 3 two-way spliters, with 1 driving two to give you 4 outputs, with a net signal loss of typically 6.5 db per port. Even a 3-way splitter consists (electrically) of 3 two-ways wired in tandem with one port terminated (internally) so as to give you only 3 output ports, but with one of those ports at -3 db and the other two ports each at -6.5 db each. (buy one and look at how the ports are marked)

If such a thing as a 6-way splitter existed, it would (electrically) consist of 6 two-way splitters wired in tandem, thusly:
1 driving 2 
each of those 2 driving 3, with the 2nd port of the 2nd tandem 2-way terminated
net result: 6 output ports, total
The (approximate) output levels at each of the 6 ports would be the sum of the losses of each splitter in tandem (3db each, cumulative) plus a slight additional fractional loss. say an additional ½ db overall at each transition. In other words, roughly -10db per output port as compared to the signal level entering the input.

By reducing the signal split from 6 to 4, you've effectively doubled your signal level (increased it by 3 db) at the 4 remaining tuners (here again, conceptually at least)

the beatings may now begin...

HTH


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## nooneuknow

I can't speak for the Roamio (yet), but I did pull the tuner shields on a 2-tuner Premiere, and found the "splitting" to be nothing more than a PCB trace being sent to two different chips. I found the same with the TiVo HDs.

What stood-out, to me (on those platforms), was:

1. Why not use shielded coax inside and use true splitting w/isolation?

2. How is it acceptable to split this way inside the TiVo, when splitting this way outside it is completely unacceptable (I know why, outside)?

3. One PCB trace always had a shorter run, and 90-degree angles (also a no-no) were in the PCB traces. This seemed to be reflected in the signal strength and SNR being different, when the TiVo had both tuners set to the same channel.

As somebody who used to repair TVs for a living, I don't recall any CRTs ever using anything other than shielded coax between the RF processing components. 

It would be nice if somebody could pull the tuner shield covers on the Roamios and verify the path of the RF, and how it gets divided-up. I would think that in this day/age of technology, there should/could be a single, shielded, path to a chip, and that chip could do the splitting (and, if needed, amplify/attenuate on-the-fly), and should be fully RF shielded, both top & bottom sides of the PCB.

If I ever have to pull a Roamio out of service again (base-models), I'll be sure to check if TiVo has improved their designs, and try to spec-out any chips involved. When that time comes, I'll share what I find (unless somebody beats me to it).


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## Cap'n Preshoot

Frankly I would be shocked (horrified might be a better term) to find only a PCB trace tying all the tuner inputs together. Whatever happened to the concept of impedance matching and the myriad perils of not doing so, especially where multiple tuners are concerned? (although this would possibly explain the rapid level fluctations on ch. 621... it's called intermodulation distortion, aka "interference") But what do I know, I'm a lowly peon from the vacuum tube era.

What I was sorry to see in the Roamio design was the disappearance of the separate OTA signal input and the ability to leverage both CATV and OTA at the same time. Here in Comcast hell (Houston western suburbs) CATV signal interruptions are almost more frequent (and certainly much longer duration) than satellite rain fade. With our Premier we would routinely schedule recordings from ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC to utilize the OTA tuner rather than risk losing an episode of something because Comcast dropped out right in the middle of a "who dunnit scene". Alas, I digress.

I see nothing in any of the firmware release notes suggesting anything has been done to address the V53 error problem, yet the discussion thread seems to have died. What have I missed?


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## HarperVision

The question is, is the RF (radio frequency) being down-converted to IF (intermediate frequency) in the demodulation process before or after this pcb board split? If it's IF and then split, depending on the IF frequency, it may not matter as much. (Similar to what DirecTV does with its sat signal on your coax after the LNB)


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## Cap'n Preshoot

HarperVision said:


> The question is, is the RF (radio frequency) being down-converted to IF (intermediate frequency) in the demodulation process before or after this pcb board split? If it's IF and then split, depending on the IF frequency, it may not matter as much. (Similar to what DirecTV does with its sat signal on your coax after the LNB)


With Satellite, the LNB (as its name implies) performs a block conversion of an entire band of frequencies, converting them from either Ku or Ka band down to L band (2 Ghz) primarily to make it economically possible to send the signals down a reasonable length of inexpensive consumer-grade coaxial cable as opposed to extremely expensive, semi-rigid pressurized waveguide (or heliax). Downstairs the set top box still has to "tune" among the individual transponder frequencies within the L band, as well as select right-hand or left-hand circular polarity. Ergo there is still an LO involved here, at least on "Charlie" systems. I've been away from sat for 15 years & haven't had time (nor desire) to study how "Dave" systems accomplish single wire multiplex (SWM) while tracking up to 5 birds with a single dish.


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## nooneuknow

HarperVision said:


> The question is, is the RF (radio frequency) being down-converted to IF (intermediate frequency) in the demodulation process before or after this pcb board split? If it's IF and then split, depending on the IF frequency, it may not matter as much. (Similar to what DirecTV does with its sat signal on your coax after the LNB)


The trace going it's separate ways (making a "split") on the HD and Premiere 2-tuner models happens with an unshielded trace leading from the coax-in, up to the shielded parts, without any component along the way to do anything to the signal.

*While in another realm*, I've noted that even some of the cheapest wireless (WiFi) devices, use shielded mini-coax, instead of PCB traces, in the path to their antennas, while some of the big brands use unshielded traces for the same thing, or use ordinary unshielded wires from the wireless module connections, to the antennas (just soldered right to the center pin of the connections designed for shielded wires).

I really gotta get around to taking a look at what the Roamios do. However, if I recall correctly, the only reason I never did, was due to my base-Roamios having shields w/out removable tops (one-piece shields, soldered to the board on all sides). It might require one of those optical probes to see what is inside, without a soldering iron (or hot-air soldering/de-soldering equipment). I'm also seeming to recall that there was no exposed PCB, or PCB traces, to view, as the coax-in went straight into the shielding (that's an improvement over the older models).

I had a base-roamio that worked fine, except it couldn't tune channels >900MHz. I did some inspection, which is what I am now recalling. It was impossible for me to see anything that I was looking for at the time, except noting that the soldering on the shielding on that one, hadn't solder-flowed anything except a minute bit of one corner. Comparisons to one that could tune the >900MHz channels, revealed the fully-working one to have solder-flow all the way around the shield.

I think I was hoping to find a bad solder-joint on the inside (to quickly repair), and found that unless I wanted to unsolder the shield, there was nothing I could see, or re-solder, due to the new one-piece shielding design, without a removable lid, like the older models had.

That doesn't bode well for trying to figure out how the Roamios "split", route, and process the signal, unless somebody is willing to risk killing a Roamio in the process.


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## deac33

barrett14 said:


> MrPlastic - What do I do when Tivo is telling me anything over 35 is too high and the culprit, and then I have Charter saying that 37+ is great?


Tivo support told me the same, to get SNR under 35 dB. For about $15 I bought attenuators at 3, 6, 10, and 12 dB and got it down. I'm having different problems now, but not that one.

But I did that just to appease Tivo support. As a former working communication engineer there is no such thing as too high SNR - it's Signal to Noise Ratio, are you telling me I have too little Noise? Really? Infinite SNR is perfect! If I'm wrong I'd love to hear a knowledgeable explanation.

I think CrispyCritter may be close when he said that Tivo has a different meaning for what they call SNR. It is true the signal can be too hot if they don't have limiting circuitry, and reducing overall signal level is exactly what the attenuators do, so signal level is really their issue and they've mislabeled it as SNR.

Anyway, for barrett14 I'd suggest going ahead and buy another attenuator or two and perhaps put them in series until the Tivo box measures under 35. And hope that really does solve it. Good luck on that. 

Tivo just 2 days ago did agree to replace my 5 month old Roamio Plus because it keeps deleting recordings with under 63% disk usage. But not really related to SNR, so irrelevant to your problem.

I also struggled as apparently many did during March with the Roamio rebooting at random times and for no visible reason. I see that Tivo accepts that was a problem in their servers and they fixed it by early April, 2014. I've not had that problem since. But with 3 or 4 different concurrent problems, diagnosis was impossible. Now I'm down to just the one problem of premature deletions and they're going to fix that. I hope. Good luck to barrett14 and to all. It's a great system when it's working right.


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## HarperVision

Cap'n Preshoot said:


> With Satellite, the LNB (as its name implies) performs a block conversion of an entire band of frequencies, converting them from either Ku or Ka band down to L band (2 Ghz) primarily to make it economically possible to send the signals down a reasonable length of inexpensive consumer-grade coaxial cable as opposed to extremely expensive, semi-rigid pressurized waveguide (or heliax). Downstairs the set top box still has to "tune" among the individual transponder frequencies within the L band, as well as select right-hand or left-hand circular polarity. Ergo there is still an LO involved here, at least on "Charlie" systems. I've been away from sat for 15 years & haven't had time (nor desire) to study how "Dave" systems accomplish single wire multiplex (SWM) while tracking up to 5 birds with a single dish.


 Yes I know all that. I was making an analogy, not a comparison. Just pointing out how a signal can be down converted to lower freqs as an "intermediate" step, as in "intermediate" frequency, i.e. - IF.

PS - I just knew someone was going to comment like that and should've deleted to save confusion.


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