# What update is TiVo installing and why did it do it without asking?



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

NYC - Saturday August 1st - my Tivo just re-booted itself without asking and has now been installing an "update" for the last 20 minutes.

How rude.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Update on the update - it "may take up to an hour"

even ruder.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

well - Tivo lied it only took 10 minutes
apparently some Beta release updating ONEPASS to include a record everything option and some other stuff


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Cainebj said:


> well - Tivo lied it only took 10 minutes
> apparently some Beta release updating ONEPASS to include a record everything option and some other stuff


Is it 20.5.2? If so, that's not beta, here are the release notes:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=530236

Not sure why it restarted when it did...maybe the box downloaded the update (it is rolling out currently), and it just randomly happened to crash after..usually it tries to install in the middle of the night when it's unused.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

gonzotek said:


> Is it 20.5.2? If so, that's not beta, here are the release notes:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=530236
> 
> Not sure why it restarted when it did...maybe the box downloaded the update (it is rolling out currently), and it just randomly happened to crash after..usually it tries to install in the middle of the night when it's unused.


The Premiere SD Menus has Beta Software Release written across the top of TiVo Central??? Most likely an oversight. Who tests the SD menus anyway?
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10583587#post10583587


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

CoxInPHX said:


> The Premiere SD Menus has Beta Software Release written across the top of TiVo Central??? Most likely an oversight. Who tests the SD menus anyway?
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10583587#post10583587


Oh, that's wacky. Thanks


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Updates are never optional. And they will install automatically after 2am as long as there are no scheduled recordings. I've had the TiVo reboot and install an update when I was in the middle of watching something.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Maybe the SD menus really are in beta- since no one wanted to bother testing them.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Welcome to the wonderful world of Tivo. Mine used to reboot whenever it felt like it and install updates with no prompting from me. It was just one of those little things that pushed me even closer to using a PC with Windows Media Center. At least I can pick and choose which updates to install and when to install them with Windows Update.

Just as an FYI for those that still think WMC is dead. Microsoft switched guide data providers from Zap2It to Rovi, which happens to be the provider they use for the Xbox. Clearly, Xbox isn't going away and Microsoft has taken steps to ensure current WMC users aren't left out in the cold. There have been some growing pains with the transition, but at least WMC users will still have guide data available for some time down the road.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

mr.unnatural said:


> Just as an FYI for those that still think WMC is dead. Microsoft switched guide data providers from Zap2It to Rovi, which happens to be the provider they use for the Xbox. Clearly, Xbox isn't going away and Microsoft has taken steps to ensure current WMC users aren't left out in the cold. There have been some growing pains with the transition, but at least WMC users will still have guide data available for some time down the road.


MS should have had Zap2It do the schedule for the Xbox One instead of having Rovi take over WMC. The Rovi guide is missing information on several channels in the Detroit OTA schedule (and from what I've read, plenty of other areas, OTA and cable) that Zap2It had. But I bet that Rovi is a less expensive service.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I hope that road is longer than the one used by LG and Sony for their DVRs.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

JoeKustra said:


> I hope that road is longer than the one used by LG and Sony for their DVRs.


My Haupauge 950 usb stick can still schedule recordings via the Titan TV app. And there is Kodi with Schedules Direct. But WMC has become inferior thanks to the move to Rovi. Maybe this is MS's way of getting people frustrated enough to find an alternative service and then quietly cancel WMC? I'm sure the predicted dvr service for the Xbox One will be heavily drm-laden.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Could be MS is really wanting to kill WMC? I forgot to mention Rovi also stopped supporting my Sony TV also.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

I thought I read lots of reviews of Windows 10 saying WMC was gone in 10, and now MS wants everything to upgrade to 10 .


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

tomhorsley said:


> I thought I read lots of reviews of Windows 10 saying WMC was gone in 10, and now MS wants everything to upgrade to 10 .


It is and they do. WMC is no longer being offered with Windows 10. The upgrade to Windows 10 is free for now, but if you're using WMC you won't be upgrading.



JoeKustra said:


> Could be MS is really wanting to kill WMC? I forgot to mention Rovi also stopped supporting my Sony TV also.


I think the idea is to migrate WMC capabilities over to the Xbox One at some point, and I believe they have already done so for live TV. I'm not sure if they have plans to add DVR capabilities to the Xbox or not.



moedaman said:


> MS should have had Zap2It do the schedule for the Xbox One instead of having Rovi take over WMC. The Rovi guide is missing information on several channels in the Detroit OTA schedule (and from what I've read, plenty of other areas, OTA and cable) that Zap2It had. But I bet that Rovi is a less expensive service.


These are the growing pains I was referring to. I had more than a few channels missing when my guide data switched to Rovi. I had to rerun guided setup a couple of times before they showed back up, and even then the guide data was listed as "To be announced." What was really odd is that I had several season passes set up that were showing no upcoming recordings. I checked the guide and there were definitely new episodes listed. I had to recreate season passes for those shows to get them to record. The odd thing is that the settings and channel info were exactly the same for both season passes.

I'm sure there was a monetary issue that drove their decision. That or just that Rovi was a better fit for the Xbox. Using Rovi for both systems was a logical move on the part of Microsoft so they wouldn't have to pay for two different services. I believe they already had Rovi as the Xbox supplier so it just makes sense that they'd consolidate the two systems under a single provider. I think they were just throwing WMC users a bone by showing that they will provide guide data for as long as necessary. It could be that they saw what SiliconDust is doing with their HDHomeRun DVR app and just decided to put the screws to the competition in the manner that Microsoft does.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Could be MS is really wanting to kill WMC? I forgot to mention Rovi also stopped supporting my Sony TV also.


It's dead, there's no debate, they flat out said so, they're not "wanting" to kill it, it's already dead.



tomhorsley said:


> I thought I read lots of reviews of Windows 10 saying WMC was gone in 10, and now MS wants everything to upgrade to 10 .


 Or if you're a light user of WMC you can bail and move on to a very nice alternative and use a workaround.



mr.unnatural said:


> It is and they do. WMC is no longer being offered with Windows 10. The upgrade to Windows 10 is free for now, but if you're using WMC you won't be upgrading.


Some won't, some will, I'm sure MS had the numbers at hand and knew exactly how few WMC users there were out there, it's too bad since it was one of the only 3rd party apps that could play protected content via CableCARD.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

It's not surprising they killed MCE. They never bothered to finish it, the interface is a mess, setup is a mess, and it had a tiny user interface. Better to let other companies build a PC-DVR system than have MCE there as a horrible default option.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

If CableLabs would loosen their hold a bit then some of the 3rd party companies might be able to build DVR software for PC. I'm not sure how Silicone Dust's system works, but based on my understanding of the rules they wont actually be able to play protected content on a PC unless they can some how get direct access to the video card. Which I don't think is possible for anyone except MS. So you'll likely be able to use a PC to record your shows, but you'll have to use another device like a Roku or game system to actually watch them.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Bigg said:


> It's not surprising they killed MCE. They never bothered to finish it, the interface is a mess, setup is a mess, and it had a tiny user interface. Better to let other companies build a PC-DVR system than have MCE there as a horrible default option.


The sad part is, MS never really advertised this feature. Tens of millions of Windows PC's with WMC installed on them, and MS never even tried to get people to know how it worked, much less help to make it popular. 

Unlike Tivo, MS actually has the money and power to shake up the set top market.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

dianebrat said:


> Or if you're a light user of WMC you can bail and move on to a very nice alternative and use a workaround.


The vast majority of non-WMC light users would be satisfied with a properly configured version of Ubuntu and Open Office. They have no need for the advanced features that Windows 10 has.

MS is giving away Windows 10 because Windows 7, like Windows XP, is good enough for a lot of users and they don't want it lingering around like XP did.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Cainebj said:


> NYC - Saturday August 1st - my Tivo just re-booted itself without asking and has now been installing an "update" for the last 20 minutes.
> 
> How rude.


What time? Was something recording/were you using it at the time? They used to reboot at 2AM regardless, but nowadays they apparently don't if something is recording or it's being used.

Tivos are consumer level devices, and are even more so "all in one" than e.g. an iPhone (but even there, you can nowadays turn on automatic app upgrading, etc.. Which *I* have turned off, but most people were clamoring for).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> It's dead, there's no debate, they flat out said so, they're not "wanting" to kill it, it's already dead.


Oh, I beg to differ. While it's true that Microsoft has halted all development of WMC and essentially abandoned the project such that there will be no further development, the fact that they still provide guide data indicates that it is far from dead. How can something be dead if you're still pumping blood into it to keep it alive? If Microsoft truly wanted to kill it they would simply stop providing guide data. The fine print in their EULA indicates that they can do this at any time. It is currently alive and well, despite what the naysayers tell you.

FYI - anyone that buys a license for Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8/8.1 can still install and use WMC. AFAIK, the WMC add-on for Windows 8/8.1 can still be purchased and downloaded from the Microsoft Store. That hardly qualifies it as a "dead" product. The rumor's of WMC's demise are greatly exaggerated.

FYFI - no software product is ever dead as long as you have the hardware to run it on.

And the debate rages on. 



dianebrat said:


> Some won't, some will, I'm sure MS had the numbers at hand and knew exactly how few WMC users there were out there, it's too bad since it was one of the only 3rd party apps that could play protected content via CableCARD.


Actually, WMC was the only product certified by CableLabs to record and play protected content. There are other options for using cablecard tuners, but none of them work with protected content. If none of your channels are flagged then there are a lot of other options for using a PC as a DVR with a cablecard tuner.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Just as an FYI for those that still think WMC is dead. Microsoft switched guide data providers from Zap2It to Rovi, which happens to be the provider they use for the Xbox. Clearly, Xbox isn't going away and Microsoft has taken steps to ensure current WMC users aren't left out in the cold. There have been some growing pains with the transition, but at least WMC users will still have guide data available for some time down the road.


WMC is dead because it's no longer included with Windows, regardless of how long guide data will be around. Hopefully SiliconDust's new DVR will fill the gap when it comes out, because there's nothing left for DRM-enabled stuff.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> If CableLabs would loosen their hold a bit then some of the 3rd party companies might be able to build DVR software for PC. I'm not sure how Silicone Dust's system works, but based on my understanding of the rules they wont actually be able to play protected content on a PC unless they can some how get direct access to the video card. Which I don't think is possible for anyone except MS. So you'll likely be able to use a PC to record your shows, but you'll have to use another device like a Roku or game system to actually watch them.


Plenty of other apps have HDCP access to the display. Netflix content is HDCP protected and it plays in a web browser.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> WMC is dead because it's no longer included with Windows, regardless of how long guide data will be around. Hopefully SiliconDust's new DVR will fill the gap when it comes out, because there's nothing left for DRM-enabled stuff.


At the risk of splitting hairs, it's only dead if you upgrade to Windows 10. I know lots of people that still won't give up XP and a few more that still use Windows 98 because they have apps that aren't supported in later versions of Windows. The only reason to ever upgrade to a newer Windows version is if your hardware goes kaput and you can't find replacements with drivers that support your current OS or you need newer software that your old OS can't handle. Then there's the purchase of a new turnkey PC which will always have the Windows flavor of the week regardless of which OS you actually want installed.

All of my HTPCs run Windows 7 and the likelihood of them being "upgraded" to a newer version of Windows is slim to none, at least not as long as MS continues to provide guide data. I may switch over to the HDHR DVR software at some point running Kodi, but on a Windows 7 platform. IIRC, the DVR software still uses WMC as a backend so clearly it will have an extended lifespan while being utilized by another DVR app.

From a developmental standpoint, WMC is dead and buried. There is no argument there. From a user's perspective it is still thriving and it appears it will do so for at least the immediate future.



JosephB said:


> Plenty of other apps have HDCP access to the display. Netflix content is HDCP protected and it plays in a web browser.


I'm guessing you need a HDCP-compliant graphics card in your PC for this to work. Not a big issue since most of them are HDCP compliant these days.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm guessing you need a HDCP-compliant graphics card in your PC for this to work. Not a big issue since most of them are HDCP compliant these days.


You only need one that is HDCP-compliant if you're using a digital output (DVI, HDMI, or DisplayPort), but yeah, your graphics card and monitor would have to be HDCP compliant. VGA doesn't have to be (it can't be) and I'm sure it's just for the highest resolutions. Given that Netflix "just works" it probably downgrades to lower res streams if it can't verify HDCP protection.

I know it is protected, though, because sometimes the drivers from my video card will go nuts and the screen will turn to snow when I try to watch Netflix in Chrome.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> If CableLabs would loosen their hold a bit then some of the 3rd party companies might be able to build DVR software for PC. I'm not sure how Silicone Dust's system works, but based on my understanding of the rules they wont actually be able to play protected content on a PC unless they can some how get direct access to the video card. Which I don't think is possible for anyone except MS. So you'll likely be able to use a PC to record your shows, but you'll have to use another device like a Roku or game system to actually watch them.


Or if they would just kill the whole copy flag BS- but that's never going to happen because it would actually make sense.



moedaman said:


> The sad part is, MS never really advertised this feature. Tens of millions of Windows PC's with WMC installed on them, and MS never even tried to get people to know how it worked, much less help to make it popular.
> 
> Unlike Tivo, MS actually has the money and power to shake up the set top market.


Maybe. People are too attracted to the default of using whatever crap their cable company gives them. And let's face it, 99% of people couldn't set up an MCE machine either. MCE is hard to set up, and is a mess.



JosephB said:


> You only need one that is HDCP-compliant if you're using a digital output (DVI, HDMI, or DisplayPort), but yeah, your graphics card and monitor would have to be HDCP compliant. VGA doesn't have to be (it can't be) and I'm sure it's just for the highest resolutions. Given that Netflix "just works" it probably downgrades to lower res streams if it can't verify HDCP protection.


I'm not sure about Netflix or others, but Apple blocked HD content over VGA, which pissed me off to no end, as VGA was not EVER supposed to be part of ANY HDCP system, since it's analog.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> At the risk of splitting hairs, it's [Windows Media Center] only dead if you ...


I know the feeling. I know the feeling.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Updates are never optional. And they will install automatically after 2am as long as there are no scheduled recordings. I've had the TiVo reboot and install an update when I was in the middle of watching something.


Just for the record it was 5:30 on a Saturday afternoon and I was on the Onepass HD screen and about to watch a recording.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

WMC not included and never will be in Windows 10.

Just because MS is paying for the guide data today for WMC users does not mean that all those previous Windows version users (I use WMC for OTA and I am ticked that MS won't at least allow legacy users to have it in Win 10) of WMC won't find the notice of MS no longer provided guide data or, even worse, just shut down WMC. MS in under no obligation to keep WMC alive in any form. I do beleive WMC will join the old Sony DVR, SezMi DVR, and any other CE device that a company just feels is no longer worth supporting nor providing in any form. I think the irony will be MS shutting down WMC jsut AFTER the free upgrade to Win 10 expires. I can't see MS paying for, even the few users it may have, the fees for the guide data for what MS considers a "dead" product (it saves MS money), and MS may do so to push people over to Xbox, and yes, Xbox will have DVR features, but I don't think anything like the robust power of WMC.

WMC will not be the first product to completely get the ax (sooner they we may think). Others have preceeded it. There is plenty of precedent. It's time to let WMC go. The times have changed. and FWIW, WMC was NOT at all easy for Joe Blow and Suzi Que to set-up and work will with CATV, and it never worked with satellite. WMC is for hobbiests and tech folk, not at all for Aunt Kizzie and the kids. Too bad becasue a really well configured WMC (the common folk would have to pay a techie to set it all up with all those parts and arcane knowledge of what workded with what, etc.) was a really great and powerful DVR, but the rabble don't want a PC on all the time on the living room or whatever room. It was an alien concept to them. Like it or not, the masses still want a "box" they can connect and is already built and ready to go. Anything else is an abstraction they can't heads around.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The switch to Rovi as a guide data provider pretty much ensures that WMC will be around for as long as MS supports live TV on the Xbox. It was a smart move by MS to keep from alienating a fairly large group of customers, even though WMC users are in the vast minority of Windows users. When you think about it, MS is already paying for Rovi to support Xbox users. Allowing WMC users to tap into the same source basically costs them next to nothing.

When I heard that MS was dropping Media Center from Windows 10 I started to get worried that they'd end guide data support for WMC. I joined the Kickstarter campaign for the SiliconDust HDHR DVR app, but so far I'm not all that impressed with the development. I was planning to supplant WMC with the HDHR DVR software on all of my HTPCs, but the WAF simply isn't there in it's current state. I'm really hoping they revamp the UI and make it more user friendly because right now it kinda sucks. Unless they make some drastic changes between now and the final release I'll have pissed away $160 for five years worth of guide data plus my Kickstarter support. At least now I still have WMC to fall back on if it doesn't work out.


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