# Tivo Petition



## parkerc (May 30, 2002)

Dear fellow Tivo lovers.

Forgive me as I'm sure this has probabaly come up once or twice before but i was just wondering how many people from the UK do you think would need to commit to buying a new S2 - S3 box from the US for Tivo to consider supplying us with a 'modifying' box to work in the UK.

I'm not suggesting they support them or anything like that, hell we've got by this long with no hardware support coverage but does anyone think they could be tempted ?

I also notided that Tivo were offereing transfer of lifetime subscription to their US upgraders so maybe they could do that for us too.

Anyway, who knows but maybe all our dedication and admiration for their baby over the years might hopefully mean something. E.g.

1,000 people agreeing to pay 500 quid for a new box ? = Half a Million quid (almost a million $)

Maybe that'll be enough for Tivo to pay one of their techie to do a few minor modifications ? Now I'm not a techie so i'm not sure how difficult the mod would be, but it's worrying to think if my Tivo dies i'll proabably have to go over to Sky :-(

Has a proper petition ever been done?


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## Mike B (Sep 16, 2003)

I'm fairly sure this has been suggested before, but I'd certainly be tempted, so long as it had twin freeview tuners. The ability to record from an external source isn't a priority for me, but I guess it still would be for those Sky and NT(elewest)L customers.


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## Nebulous (Nov 28, 2005)

Well if they do, I would certainly consider getting one. :up:  

However I don't think it would be quite as simple as you might think.  

You are probably correct about the relative ease by which the software could be modified for the UK. However I think the hardware is more likely to be the problem. 

Firstly the tuners would need to be UK freeview compatible, which I assume they are not, and sky cannot be decoded internally anyway. 
Therefore it would be necessary to use external freeview / satellite decoders. Nothing wrong with that I here you cry, but US boxes don't have scart connectors, so there's no RGB, select line or auto aspect ratio select. You would probably have to use low quality composite video.
This would just be too inconvenient for most people. Some of us lucky ones have TV's with component inputs, but that still doesn't help get the sources into the Tivo.

Oh and the PSU may not be rated for UK 240v input.

So really, it would need to be a physically different unit, which brings us back to the same old stumbling block. Unless a manufacturer wants to take on the UK, Tivo aren't going to be interested.


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## parkerc (May 30, 2002)

Thanks Mike, I'm guessing that the internal tuners would be where the problems would be for any US to the UK conversion (unless any cool PAL to NTSC/ATSC conversion exists)

Anyway I'd like to think that for those of us OK with just using the extenal tuners/sources (SVHS, componant etc.) it could just work much like our current S1, only with the benefits of the new Hardware (HD rec, SATA etc.)

As you can guess i'm thinking out loud


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

parkerc said:


> Now I'm not a techie so i'm not sure how difficult the mod would be, but it's worrying to think if my Tivo dies i'll proabably have to go over to Sky


I would imagine that if your Tivo does actually dies and its not the hard drives or the power supply or the modem (which are the only things that normally fail and for which in every case there is a replacement solution for that component easily available) and is instead the Motherboard in some aspect then you would simply buy another one secondhand on Ebay or even from one of the two guys who refurb and refit them professionally for a living.

Unfortunately I just can't see a UK Tivo S2 happening unless Tivo decide to fully re-enter the market with a UK Freeview PVR box solution. Although people think customers won't pay for that I don't really buy that argument when you see how many very pricey combined Freeview and hard drive recorder boxes are now out there and the fact that people are actually buying them in some quantity ignorant of their very limited functionality.

The solution lies in including the first year's Tivo sub free with the box or at least built into the purchase price and then when it comes up for renewal at the end of the first year (and would otherwise turn into a miserable manual recording PVR if not renewed) customers are hooked and agree to pay the £5 a month or whatever to carry on.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

The results of this poll from last year indicate that TiVo could easily sell upwards of 50,000 Series 2 boxes in the UK *without doing any advertising at all* if all current owners were to alert their friends to the availability of a new model.

Clearly, a Series 3 box is a technically much more complex (and more expensive) beast, so it would probably be a safer move to release a twin tuner Freeview S2 first to test the market, but I would expect the initial takeup of a UK S3 to be very good, especially if it could record from a SkyHD box via HDMI/Dvi  

As for suporting a plug-in Sky CAM via CableCard, the fact that you can receive Sky on a Dreambox using a plug-in CAM (as long as you have a valid Sky subscription) shows that it would not be technically impossible. All TiVo have to do is accidentally leave a door open and people will find a way...


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

I would only buy a new TiVo if it did Freeview AND allowed recording from Sky via the SCART (or better).

Sky is the only viable option where I live in Wales if you want more than Freeview offers - there used to be a cable system of sorts - this was laid in the 1950s before the main TV mast at Carmel was built. Up until about 10 years ago. It was only ever designed to carry 4 channels originally but I think they managed to squeze 9 down it (including the mandetory BBC1, 2 ITV & S4C/Channel4 which I believe all cable TV channels have to carry for some obscure reason buried in the past to do with the licence fee), with some of the channels appearing really noisy and having some really strange sharing with other channels on the same slot, but when that ceased, no replacement was provided. Even that was only available in populated areas.

I'm currently hoping to buy a house in a semi-rural Welsh village where I think it's safe to say cable will never arrive and from what I can see, Freeview may be a bit of a problem too as, although it's 7 miles from the main TX, it's in a slight dip.

Estimated 6MB broadband though as it's not too far from an exchange - that's a MUST and a higher priority than central heating or furnature


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

aerialplug said:


> Freeview may be a bit of a problem too as, although it's 7 miles from the main TX, it's in a slight dip.


You lucky Welsh people should have analogue switched off and a new powerful full strength Freeview service replacing it in only 3 or 4 years or so if the government's current plans continue to proceed. We South East types have to wait until 2012.

As to the new Tivo box I suppose Murdoch may refuse to play ball in giving it any access to his encrypted HD pay tv channels (unless Tivo are going to take him to court over it) but you might find there was a Tivo S3 box offered here by Tivo that had an onboard Freeview tuner (or probably two) as well as either a Freesat tuner that could do FTA HD satellite channels or alternatively could take BBC/ITV's new proposed external Freesat box as a plug in external box of some kind. I know that won't satisfy those of you who feel that your life is not complete without contributing £500 a year to Uncle Rupey's empire but it may well be adequate for the rest of us.

If Tivo is going to come back to the UK market then doing so when Freesat from BBC/ITV is also out and supporting that properly too would probably be a particularly good option as clearly potential Freesat HD'ers are likely to be willing to pay rather more for their PVR box than Freeviewers content only with SD. Actually if you think about it could well be that Tivo is holding back on a UK launch precisely so that it can support HD Freesat too and perhaps even be the leading brand in that quality led area of the marketplace.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

If you've got £500 to spend, as suggested above, you can build a Media Center TiVo alternative which works just fine and requires no monthly sub. There's not enough space between that and the £150 of the Freeview PVRs to support a subs based machine.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sanderton said:


> If you've got £500 to spend, as suggested above, you can build a Media Center TiVo alternative which works just fine and requires no monthly sub.


I thought Season Passes weren't as reliable and no equivalent of Suggestions either? Not sure whether Media Centre system offers its own Wishlists equivalent?


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

The real way to break Sky's stranglehold is probably if enough people were to record programmes from digiboxes and distribute them as on-demand programming via (illegal) file-sharing. With the continual increase in bandwidth, this could become a reality. Although the recordings would have to be made from legal accounts, the files could be distributed through anonymous proxies hosted in other parts of the world.

Although you would only get the analogue conversions, a rapidly-growing and difficult-to-stop market in free-access to Sky might soon change their attitude towards supporting third-party integration of digital recording, if that were thought to make their legal product more attractive. If nothing else, they might spend more money on improving their inadequate apology for a PVR.

Although I'm unlikely to ever use file-sharing as a way of avoiding a Sky subscription, I would certainly be happy to take advantage of any relaxation in their resistance to third-party hardware integration.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> Although I'm unlikely to ever use file-sharing as a way of avoiding a Sky subscription, I would certainly be happy to take advantage of any relaxation in their resistance to third-party hardware integration.


I should think the EU Commission are about the only people likely to be able to stop Sky's insistence that you must use their hardware if you want access to certain kinds of their latest program content.

I would have thought that like Microsoft they will be made to split their program production arm off from their program broadcasting arm or vica versa if they insist on continuin to try to use Digital Rights Management software etc to keep competitor PVRs etc out of the marketplace.

As long as Murdoch has a stranglehold on the mains sporting events then he will continue to dominate the marketplace.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I thought Season Passes weren't as reliable and no equivalent of Suggestions either? Not sure whether Media Centre system offers its own Wishlists equivalent?


Season Passes are perfectly reliable. No suggestions (at least not without a hack) but that's no loss in my book. Yes, it has wishlists (more powerful than tiVos as you can select by channel).


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

iankb said:


> The real way to break Sky's stranglehold is probably if enough people were to record programmes from digiboxes and distribute them as on-demand programming via (illegal) file-sharing. With the continual increase in bandwidth, this could become a reality. .


Bittorrent is near enough on demand now - you can have your favourite shows within a day or so of them being shown in the US, never mind on Sky. In HD too! UK shows are often on BT within a couple of hours of broadcast.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sanderton said:


> Season Passes are perfectly reliable. No suggestions (at least not without a hack) but that's no loss in my book.


Do Season Passes even carry on to the next series after a long gap of several months though?

As to Suggestions what it records for you and is in any case constantly replaced unless the Tivo has a lot of empty space on it is not so useful (especially when you are generally unaware of them even being there unless you use Tivoweb as they are always at the bottom of the list on the Tivo) but I find the manual Suggestions list in "Pick Programs to Record" is often helpful in identifying some new program or series that you might otherwise never have previously come across.


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## TiVo_Lad (Oct 25, 2002)

sanderton said:


> UK shows are often on BT within a couple of hours of broadcast.


Allegedly...


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## CeeBeeUK (Mar 18, 2005)

sanderton said:


> you can have your favourite shows within a day or so of them being shown in the US, never mind on Sky


Some of them, Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip is one, are available before the US. CTV (Canadian TV channel) shows it on the night before and _some _people in the UK _may _ have seen it before American viewers


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## NoS34me (Sep 22, 2006)

I don't think a Series3 TiVo would require TOO much heavy work to be able to work in Europe. I figure it amounts to:

1) tuner... ATSC and QAM/Cablecard tuners are useless in this territory, but Freeview tuners should be off-the-shelf for a far-east manufacturer. The way I understand it, both ATSC/QAM/Cablecard and Freeview are just carrying MPEG2 transport streams and it's just the carrier frequency and tuner specifics that differ. Shouldn't be hard for TiVo engineers to work it out.
2) other input... erm... there isn't one on a US-spec Series3, it's digital only, and so also no PAL/NTSC garbage to worry about
3) software... this is territory specific for sure, but TiVo already have guide data setup in the UK already.

I'd happily pay for it as Sky+/HD is complete garbage but I'm not holding my breath for TiVo to cosy up to Sky. Modding a Series3 for the UK market is probably not going to happen and we're just going to have to deal.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Do Season Passes even carry on to the next series after a long gap of several months though?


Yes. You're thinking of Sky+.



> As to Suggestions what it records for you and is in any case constantly replaced unless the Tivo has a lot of empty space on it is not so useful (especially when you are generally unaware of them even being there unless you use Tivoweb as they are always at the bottom of the list on the Tivo) but I find the manual Suggestions list in "Pick Programs to Record" is often helpful in identifying some new program or series that you might otherwise never have previously come across.


Sure, but it's not a killer feature for me. MCE lets you browse by category, which i find is pretty much the same thing given the unsophistication of TiVo suggestions, which for the most part just show you things with the same category tags as stuff you've alredy recorded..


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

sanderton said:


> If you've got £500 to spend, as suggested above, you can build a Media Center TiVo alternative which works just fine and requires no monthly sub. There's not enough space between that and the £150 of the Freeview PVRs to support a subs based machine.


Actually, I would prefer a Freeview TiVo to a Media PC (reliability, smaller footprint), so would probably pay £700 (£500 + £200 sub if available) for a dual tuner series 2 and around £3000 for a High Definition series 3.

However, I guess not too many other people know the extra value a dedicated TiVo offers.


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## algordon (Apr 1, 2004)

sanderton said:


> If you've got £500 to spend, as suggested above, you can build a Media Center TiVo alternative which works just fine and requires no monthly sub. There's not enough space between that and the £150 of the Freeview PVRs to support a subs based machine.


Huh? How many of us have the technical knowledge to just build a "Media Centre Tivo alternative"? Or even have the time or desire to? The beauty of Tivo at least when it works is that it's more or less set-and-forget.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

algordon said:


> Huh? How many of us have the technical knowledge to just build a "Media Centre Tivo alternative"? Or even have the time or desire to?


So just buy one pre-built  Please note that that wasn't a recommendation, just the first one I found.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

algordon said:


> Huh? How many of us have the technical knowledge to just build a "Media Centre Tivo alternative"? Or even have the time or desire to? The beauty of Tivo at least when it works is that it's more or less set-and-forget.


Knowledge/time fine, but "desire" is the point of the thread isn't it? You want TiVo 2/3 like features but with extra power then at the moment you can only get it with MCE. If you don't want to build, buy a pre-built one then! I'll grant you MCE is not as much a consumer product as TiVo, but the WAF is surprisingly high.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

cyril said:


> Actually, I would prefer a Freeview TiVo to a Media PC (reliability, smaller footprint), so would probably pay £700 (£500 + £200 sub if available) for a dual tuner series 2 and around £3000 for a High Definition series 3.
> 
> However, I guess not too many other people know the extra value a dedicated TiVo offers.


Re: footprint, that's what your Xbox 360's for - and next year there will be TVs with ethernet ports than connect to a MCE PC elsewhere in the house where noise/footprint aren't an issue.

Re: HD. Well, MCE does that too, for downloaded content. Hopefully an MCE compatible DVB-S S2 tuner card will soon be available!

It's not perfect, but there's only so long you can wait for TiVo, who have bigger problems than international expansion. Hey, here comes Godot!


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

sanderton said:


> ... but the WAF is surprisingly high.


I have to ask  WAF? Hang on.... [something] awareness factor? First word wouldn't be "wife" would it?


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

sanderton said:


> Bittorrent is near enough on demand now - you can have your favourite shows within a day or so of them being shown in the US, never mind on Sky. In HD too! UK shows are often on BT within a couple of hours of broadcast.


So, has anyone created a PC front-end that allows one to create season passes and wishlists that use BT to find and download recordings on an overnight basis? Or does this suffer from the usual EPG problems of not having a universal coding for series and episodes, and a purpose-designed database to find the links?


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

iankb said:


> So, has anyone created a PC front-end that allows one to create season passes and wishlists that use BT to find and download recordings on an overnight basis? Or does this suffer from the usual EPG problems of not having a universal coding for series and episodes, and a purpose-designed database to find the links?


Hit it on the nose. Azureus etc have built in search engines and can take customised RSS feeds - but 
a) there's no standard for coding episode file names
b) there's usually no meta-data.

I either grab a whole season at the end (I prefer to watch something like Scrubs over the course of a week) or every so often will go "Hmmm... I wonder if there's a new series of House".

Not ideal.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Hmmm. All this discussion about front-ends and stuff is fine, but all the more disturbing when discussed in the context of what is, by any defenition, an illegal activity


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Only illegal to use, not to discuss. And many illegal concepts have turned into commercial products (e.g. Napster).

Using open systems to retrieve data from multiple sources doesn't necessarily mean that the data has to be stolen. It just means that the broadcasters would need to support a common format for data provision. I can imagine an EPG-based service that can retrieve subscription-based data from multiple broadband sources, including broadcasters, DVD rental companies, film distributors, archives, etc. Information for film archives could come from companies such as IMDB.com.

The real problem is stopping the data providers from tying people into closed systems. If they see open systems as being the way of reducing the threat of illegal activity, then they may well change their ways.

If it is possible for each of the terrestrial channel providers to make money out people downloading any programme from their historic archives, then I can see them all agreeing to fit into a standard front-end that could provide that access. A company that provided that front-end would take a small cut of any download, and would take a bigger cut if they maintained the download mechanism on behalf of the broadcaster. When broadband speeds have increased enough, then I can see most programmes being viewed via the internet. The advantage to broadcasters such as Hallmark, etc, is that they will no longer need to be tied into satellite and cable providers. Once Sky, etc, no longer control access to the majority of channel providers, they will have to open up their systems as well.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

There's a pretty standard filenaming convention on most BT tracker sites, along the lines of Lost.S03.E01.720p.ts for Lost series 3 episode 1 in HD 720p resolution formatted as an MPEG2 transport stream (the last two only really apply for HD torrents). There are usually links to the episode data from the show's website.

It's a manual process, of course, but as Terry says, you often get whole season's packaged up in one, which is convenient.

Calrl: Wife Acceptance Factor


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