# TiVo Staffing Changes



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

I'm hearing both Ira Bahr and Magret Schmidt will be leaving TiVo. Doesn't necessarily mean something... or it might. Roadmap and staffing changes, at their level, after a merger are pretty common and Margret has been there 100 years - so could just be time for change. Or maybe not. In any event, I'm hopeful retail carries on and that their project teams figure out how to multitask and iterate faster. I should add I haven't confirmed Margret's departure yet...


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

davezatz said:


> I'm hearing both Ira Bahr and Magret Schmidt will be leaving TiVo. Doesn't necessarily mean something... or it might. Roadmap and staffing changes, at their level, after a merger are pretty common and Margret has been there 100 years - so could just be time for change. Or maybe not. In any event, I'm hopeful retail carries on and that their project teams figure out how to multitask and iterate faster.


Margret will be missed.


----------



## Kash76 (Jul 29, 2001)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

davezatz said:


> I should add I haven't confirmed Margret's departure yet...


Have kinda, sorta confirmed from a trusted source who has heard similar.


----------



## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)




----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Some people actually retire. It won't be the same without Margret.


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Aero 1 said:


>


 This drawing goes with The simple TV thread.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

That's too bad. I know a lot of us appreciated the outreach that both Ira and Margret made to TiVo users here. As Dave says, this could just be about the new owners making management changes. But combined with the fact that TiVo has apparently scrapped the Mavrik and, before that, opted to roll out the Bolt+ rather than the more ambitious pro model they had previously contemplated, I can't help but feel that these personnel changes likely amount to further steps away from the retail business.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> That's too bad. I know a lot of us appreciated the outreach that both Ira and Margret made to TiVo users here. As Dave says, this could just be about the new owners making management changes. But combined with the fact that TiVo has apparently scrapped the Mavrik and, before that, opted to roll out the Bolt+ rather than the more ambitious pro model they had previously contemplated, I can't help but feel that these personnel changes likely amount to further steps away from the retail business.


Except for OTA customers I think that 80% of TiVos retail business is from current TiVo owners upgrading, in the old days I had over 15 homes with TiVo because of me, now it down to only three as most people have gone to the cable system DVR or are looking to get out of cable altogether. I provide on-sight service for two homes (of friends) that have cable card TiVos, so I don't try to convince anybody new to go with a cable card TiVo anymore.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

For the good and the bad of it, life evolves. They and their work and efforts, including Margret's magnificent and freely-offered problem-solving and Ira's information-sharing and pro-TiVo owner efforts (including the recent Series 2 lifetime upgrade offer), will be missed.


----------



## henrys1 (Aug 31, 2007)

lessd said:


> Except for OTA customers I think that 80% of TiVos retail business is from current TiVo owners upgrading, in the old days I had over 15 homes with TiVo because of me, now it down to only three as most people have gone to the cable system DVR or are looking to get out of cable altogether. I provide on-sight service for two homes (of friends) that have cable card TiVos, so I don't try to convince anybody new to go with a cable card TiVo anymore.


The cable card/tuning adapter hassle really killed Tivo. I guess it all depends what the next Tivo CEO wants to do with whats left of the retail world.


----------



## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

I had a feeling this thread would be bad news once I read the title and saw the original poster.


----------



## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

JoeKustra said:


> Margret will be missed.


Thus ends our only (AFAIK; I viewed it as 'Emergency Use Only' - never needed to use it, but nice to know that it was there in case) direct line for Tech Support leaving us with just 'Telephone Roulette'...


----------



## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

ClearToLand said:


> Thus ends our only (AFAIK; I viewed it as 'Emergency Use Only' - never needed to use it, but nice to know that it was there in case) direct line for Tech Support leaving us with just 'Telephone Roulette'...


Yep on the "emergency use only" stuff. I emailed her directly a couple times over the past ~10 years for stuff that was going nowhere in the proper channels.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

ClearToLand said:


> Thus ends our only (AFAIK; I viewed it as 'Emergency Use Only' - never needed to use it, but nice to know that it was there in case) direct line for Tech Support leaving us with just 'Telephone Roulette'...


I felt that way too. I must have referred dozens of desperate people to her to help with impossible problems.

But I feel she will survive, and excel in what ever new environment she finds herself. She has a pretty good resume, and a lot of character references.


----------



## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

So who is the new person handling the bat line, robin?


----------



## Blakeintosh (Sep 8, 2014)

That is really disappointing news. If this is indeed true, I wish them both the very best and thank them for their dedication to TiVo and it's very vocal fanbase. 

It makes me wonder if Hydra will ever see the light of day for retail customers.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

henrys1 said:


> The cable card/tuning adapter hassle really killed Tivo. I guess it all depends what the next Tivo CEO wants to do with whats left of the retail world.


Cable card is the least of the TiVo problems. When their core product turned to abhorrently poor quality (guide) the entire value prop evaporated.

Look back. I predicted this several years ago on this forum.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Blakeintosh said:


> That is really disappointing news. If this is indeed true, I wish them both the very best and thank them for their dedication to TiVo and it's very vocal fanbase.
> 
> It makes me wonder if Hydra will ever see the light of day for retail customers.


Yeah. That thought crossed my mind when I read the news earlier too. Hydra was originally slated to hit retail boxes, when, last year? Zatz now says it's slated for "late 2017". But given the direction that TiVo is heading, and the fact that they're now updating all retail series 4, 5 and 6 boxes with a refreshed (and finally, fully HD) traditional TiVo UI, plus the fact that lots of folks on this forum seem to hate Hydra, I'll frankly be a little surprised if we ever get it.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

wmhjr said:


> Cable card is the least of the TiVo problems. When their core product turned to abhorrently poor quality (guide) the entire value prop evaporated.
> 
> Look back. I predicted this several years ago on this forum.


The faulty guide data isn't the reason people aren't buying enough retail TiVos to make it a good business model. People weren't buying enough TiVos to financially sustain the company back when they were still using the old Gracenote data.


----------



## Blakeintosh (Sep 8, 2014)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. That thought crossed my mind when I read the news earlier too. Hydra was originally slated to hit retail boxes, when, last year? Zatz now says it's slated for "late 2017". But given the direction that TiVo is heading, and the fact that they're now updating all retail series 4, 5 and 6 boxes with a refreshed (and finally, fully HD) traditional TiVo UI, plus the fact that lots of folks on this forum seem to hate Hydra, I'll frankly be a little surprised if we ever get it.


I'm guessing that Hydra will probably still hit the OEM market for the cable companies. The UI needs a significant rebuild when you look at other offerings such Comcast's X1. Especially now that Comcast is going to start selling the X1 platform to other cable companies.

On the Retail side, with the market dwindling they may not want to make the investment in rolling Hydra out, with all of the development/support needs that come with a major software upgrade. Time will tell.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The faulty guide data isn't the reason people aren't buying enough retail TiVos to make it a good business model. People weren't buying enough TiVos to financially sustain the company back when they were still using the old Gracenote data.


I agree. Forecasted their decline and likely end of retail relevance several years ago. However the quality issues rapidly accelerate the problems. It's not a cablecard issue.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Blakeintosh said:


> I'm guessing that Hydra will probably still hit the OEM market for the cable companies. The UI needs a significant rebuild when you look at other offerings such Comcast's X1. Especially now that Comcast is going to start selling the X1 platform to other cable companies.
> 
> On the Retail side, with the market dwindling they may not want to make the investment in rolling Hydra out, with all of the development/support needs that come with a major software upgrade. Time will tell.


They usually use us retail DVR customers as the unofficial beta testers before rolling out updates to the MSO units. I'm guessing they will eventually do what they said and make Hydra an optional upgrade for retail DVRs that can handle it, probably Roamios and Bolts.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Blakeintosh said:


> I'm guessing that Hydra will probably still hit the OEM market for the cable companies. The UI needs a significant rebuild when you look at other offerings such Comcast's X1. Especially now that Comcast is going to start selling the X1 platform to other cable companies.
> 
> On the Retail side, with the market dwindling they may not want to make the investment in rolling Hydra out, with all of the development/support needs that come with a major software upgrade. Time will tell.


Right. I have no doubt that Hydra will roll out to the MSOs who use TiVo-powered boxes. (In fact, it's already in use by one MSO in Spain, I believe.) At this point, it seems to me the only reason why TiVo would bother with the hassle of rolling it out to retail boxes is if they felt that it would support the rollout for MSOs, by getting early adopter feedback, working out bugs, etc.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

wmhjr said:


> I agree. Forecasted their decline and likely end of retail relevance several years ago. However the quality issues rapidly accelerate the problems. It's not a cablecard issue.


There are multiple issues. CableCARD/tuning adapter hassles are part of it. Faulty guide data could be an issue for some, but much less than the technical challenges. Most consumers are just not technically savvy enough to deal with the technical challenge of getting a TiVo system set up. I know it seems like a piece of cake to most of us on this forum, but we are not the average American consumer.

Price is another major issue. TiVo has tried every pricing scheme under the sun, but they can't seem to find one that will lead to the scale they need for it to be a profitable venture. The retail DVR market just isn't large enough, and TiVo hasn't managed to increase the size of the market enough through their marketing efforts.


----------



## Blakeintosh (Sep 8, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> There are multiple issues. CableCARD/tuning adapter hassles are part of it. Faulty guide data could be an issue for some, but much less than the technical challenges. Most consumers are just not technically savvy enough to deal with the technical challenge of getting a TiVo system set up. I know it seems like a piece of cake to most of us on this forum, but we are not the average American consumer.


And with the advent of streaming services, cord-cutting, al-a-carte services, the traditional cable plan/DVR is becoming a thing of the past.

The truly sad thing is that as the market goes to online, streaming-only services, people are giving away their right to "record" and keep a copy of the content that they can watch at anytime in the future. Streaming services keeps the content under the control of the content provider, who can remove access to it at anytime.


----------



## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

I've always felt that Tivo's retail failure was relying so much on word of mouth advertising instead of using TV commercials and infomercials as well as print ads. People need to told why they should spend more up front for a DVR rather than pay more over time for a cable-owned box. I don't believe that Tivo as a company has ever made this case to the masses.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Blakeintosh said:


> I'm guessing that Hydra will probably still hit the OEM market for the cable companies. The UI needs a significant rebuild when you look at other offerings such Comcast's X1.


Can you give SPECIFIC examples of why?

If you mean "it looks snazzier", as long as it's not useful, I don't care much (some would say at all).

Don't get me wrong, I can name plenty of things wrong.. get rid of the stupid top bar thing -- I have a Tivo, I don't need to know what else is on..
Actually make show downloads WORK (you don't know how many times I have to retry downloads to actually get shows to watch at the gym.. and even then, they have glitches and sometimes spots where the playback JUST HANGS).
Make the UI consistent, like it used to be.. (if I go into view upcoming, then enter an episode, and then go left, I am NOT at the list of View Upcoming anymore.)

...but still, it's BY FAR the "least bad" I've seen... and now it's been many years that I've done this (I still have my Toshiba XS32 but mostly use it as a 'video switcher'), but just the ability to download shows to a computer for more show hoarding is useful..

good things:
skip mode
quick mode (though I would add 50%, 75%, 100% faster -- I use all of those sometimes when downloading shows then watching on iPad or AirPlaying back to AppleTV.. yes it's a lot of work, but for the time-saving it can be useful).
mostly "just works", as far as TV recording.


----------



## Blakeintosh (Sep 8, 2014)

mattack said:


> Can you give SPECIFIC examples of why?
> 
> If you mean "it looks snazzier", as long as it's not useful, I don't care much (some would say at all).


MSO's are panicking as more people drop their cable package and go Internet-only with online-streaming. They are anxious to get that "snazzy", more integrated experience in their DVR's, as well as a modern interface that people see on their Android/iOS devices. I love TiVo's current interface too, but it looks dated when you look at almost any other consumer electronics platform...Android, iOS, Roku, Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, Windows 10, Amazon Video, etc.

Here's a screenshot of Comcast's X1. Hydra was developed to try and keep the TiVo platform relevant to MSO's as the competitor's offerings continue to advance.


----------



## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

Not to drift off-topic from staffing to interface (or maybe it is on-topic since it appears to be Margret's last project with TiVo), but Hydra's appeal is in discovery. The current Discovery Bar is limited in usefulness - and with only 4 tiles probably shouldn't even be there. Nearly all of Hydra's focus in the MSO video was on bringing the discovery functionality a little closer on par to what is out there already from other systems. The slide-out tile-based left|right|up|down tuner functionality is an improvement to me also. The quick toss-off mention at the very end of the demo about the ol' grid-guide was interesting in it's placement. Almost as a quick reassurance for the buggy-whip crowd that it could still be used.

With Ira and Margret gone, it will be interesting what the corporate decision actually is regarding that project, though. Why let her go if you're going to move forward with her project? I'm actually less hopeful that it sees the light of day, now.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Sorry to hear Margret leaving given her part participation here and assistance with issues in the past. Ira as well with the several open question sessions he participated in.

We had started to get a little more visibility here from TiVo support people for a while in addition to Margret but that seems to have disappeared since Rovi purchased them so I'm not hopeful that we'll have any kind of corporate presence here moving forward.

Scott


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Blakeintosh said:


> And with the advent of streaming services, cord-cutting, al-a-carte services, the traditional cable plan/DVR is becoming a thing of the past.


Except that, with cord-cutting, I would think that OTA DVR use would be even more relevant, especially as more OTA channels are available than ever before (at least in my area).


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

eherberg said:


> With Ira and Margret gone, it will be interesting what the corporate decision actually is regarding that project, though. Why let her go if you're going to move forward with her project? I'm actually less hopeful that it sees the light of day, now.


Who's to say what the circumstances of Margret's presumed departure are, and whether _she_ decided to move forward?


----------



## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

tarheelblue32 said:


> There are multiple issues. CableCARD/tuning adapter hassles are part of it. Faulty guide data could be an issue for some, but much less than the technical challenges. Most consumers are just not technically savvy enough to deal with the technical challenge of getting a TiVo system set up. I know it seems like a piece of cake to most of us on this forum, but we are not the average American consumer.
> 
> Price is another major issue. TiVo has tried every pricing scheme under the sun, but they can't seem to find one that will lead to the scale they need for it to be a profitable venture. The retail DVR market just isn't large enough, and TiVo hasn't managed to increase the size of the market enough through their marketing efforts.


 Completely agree. Probably less than 10% of households could handle the challenges of dealing with a TiVo. Cable card pairing, putting a timer on a tuning adapter to prevent it from regularly crashing. Setting up a Moca system. Paying hundreds of dollars upfront?

As an engineer, I find having TiVos a fun challenge, but If I died tomorrow, the wife would have to trash the TiVos and have Spectrum deliver STBs.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

UCLABB said:


> Completely agree. Probably less than 10% of households could handle the challenges of dealing with a TiVo. Cable card pairing, putting a timer on a tuning adapter to prevent it from regularly crashing. Setting up a Moca system. Paying hundreds of dollars upfront?
> 
> As an engineer, I find having TiVos a fun challenge, but If I died tomorrow, the wife would have to trash the TiVos and have Spectrum deliver STBs.


But do keep in mind, that's cable and network. OTA set-up is pretty easy, and even MoCA if the wiring is all in place.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

There has never been a time I can recall when the independent viability of the hardware business was not in question. TiVo has always survived on the power of its intellectual property. The hardware has always been to a great extent a hobbyists' product and a means to case the intellectual property. It doesn't surprise me that larger companies are able to sell hardware into the mass market more effectively.

This message may have been entered via voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.


----------



## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

They will be missed in this forum.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Sparky1234 said:


> They will be missed in this forum.


Agreed!



Mikeguy said:


> Who's to say what the circumstances of Margret's presumed departure are, and whether _she_ decided to move forward?


Yep, I'd say that's just as likely as anything else. People make career changes for all sorts of reasons ... although there is often more churn after an acquisition - both as the company realigns *and *as the employees similarly realign. After Echostar bought Sling, for example, it was no longer a good fit for me and a stellar opportunity presented itself just as I started plotting my exit.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I've always felt that the reason I thought Tivo would be just a memory in terms of retail service in the near future were related a lot more to the following....

- Nobody, and I mean nobody, (speaking of the average consumer) wants to pay a bunch of money up front for equipment, have a questionable warranty, and then still have to pay even more for "lifetime" (not the old lifetime) or more monthly fees. With so many services having started moving to the cloud years ago, it was a 1970s/1980s solution to a current market need. The same old argument that "over time you can get your money back" is tired and meaningless. And it fundamentally depended on you somehow convincing yourself that the technology would remain relevant, and the equipment wouldn't fail, and the service would remain relevant. All bad bets in todays technology world. It's not bad advertising that hurt them. It wasn't word of mouth. It was that their fundamental understanding of the retail market changes coming (back 15 years ago) was flawed at the core. They were too in love with their past to effectively comprehend future challenges. Bottom line is that they confused their "hard core supporters" with the "average retail customer". They listened too much to people on this site that were heavily bought into Tivo and didn't listen enough to the average Joe. And they didn't understand the vast difference between the two. 

- Performance. Tivo more and more got away from high quality in their core services. The current dependency on Tivo hosted services has created an architecture that provides the worst of both worlds (in home and cloud). You have the cost and reliability issues of in home equipment combined with the dependency on hosted services (which are poorly designed and managed). And on top of that, Tivo seemed to be completely incompetent in designing architecture that relied on internet connectivity - as well as designing equipment and software that were even remotely capable in terms of network reliability and performance. My Tivos have always been the most poorly performing "network devices" of any devices I've ever worked with. 

- Cord cutting. It's funny that so many people here on this forum laughed at the idea that cord cutting would gain much traction within 15 years. Now look where we are. You have brand new and popular series that are ONLY offered on streaming services and you can't get through a Tivo. Stuff like the new CBS All Access stuff. And it's only gaining in momentum.

- Service. Back to the subject of this thread. IMHO, Margret was the single, solitary, and only available service for Tivo. Regular support is worse than worthless. And it has been for a while.

Now, with the Rovi acquisition of Tivo and the shift from Gracenote/Nielsen, the basic data that everything relies on is absolute crap. Updates are unreliable. Equipment is expensive and has a questionable lifespan. If I were the new Tivo, to be honest I don't know if I'd be doing anything different, because they've already lost and are already dead in terms of retail. There is no way they can come back. So investing in really "improving" is just throwing good money after bad. My guess is that at this point there is a much higher percentage of Tivo users that are legacy "lifetime" subs as a percentage of total retail users than ever in the past - which is a very very bad thing from a financial perspective. So, Tivo is trying to shed cost - and Margret and Ira are part of those costs.


----------



## Blakeintosh (Sep 8, 2014)

Mikeguy said:


> Except that, with cord-cutting, I would think that OTA DVR use would be even more relevant, especially as more OTA channels are available than ever before (at least in my area).


I agree with you, however it makes you wonder why they canceled the Mavrik project, which could have been a cord cutters dream. My guess is TiVo knows that even OTA's future may be limited.

The OTA broadcasting industry has some massive challenges coming at it on the horizon. First off, ATSC 3.0. All existing consumer electronics equipment will not work with ATSC 3.0, if/when the industry decides to go with it. It will be another generation of adapters/convertor boxes, just like the Analog-to-digital transition 10 years ago.

Additionally, the FCC is having high-level conversations with broadcasters and wireless industry executives about possibly abandoning ALL broadcast television frequencies for additional LTE bandwidth, in exchange for broadcasters being permitted a free ride to broadcast digital streams of their feeds over LTE networks. It's a Win-Win for all parties. Broadcasters don't have to build/operate expensive transmitter facilities. Wireless providers get access to additional frequencies for more bandwidth. And consumers no longer have to utilize OTA antenna's to capture signals, if they can utilize a standard LTE chip to receive channels. This could be years down the road, but when you factor in the time and expense of yet another Broadcast conversion with ATSC 3.0, it might be better to just get it over with sooner rather than later.


----------



## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Look back. I predicted this several years ago on this forum.


dont pat your back too much Kreskin, 65,987 people on this forum and 38 publications have predicted this since 2000 when MSO's started offering DVRs.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Aero 1 said:


> dont pat your back too much Kreskin, 65,987 people on this forum and 38 publications have predicted this since 2000 when MSO's started offering DVRs.


Yeah, well, I took huge attacks by folks that said I was nuts when I said it. I sure don't agree with you that 65,987 people on this forum have predicted it. To the contrary, it was the minority position, with so many people denying it and attacking anybody suggesting it.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

And, BTW - that was as recently as 12 months ago....


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Blakeintosh said:


> I agree with you, however it makes you wonder why they canceled the Mavrik project, which could have been a cord cutters dream. My guess is TiVo knows that even OTA's future may be limited.


I guess I never really understood the great idea and draw of cloud storage with Mavrik. Why not just use out-of-home access for shows on one's (non-Mavrik) TiVo box? (Am still waiting for browser access for that, which TiVo was testing late last year.)


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Obviously, one very major advantage of cloud storage over local "in home" storage is actually two fold. First, in theory it as massively more reliable, as Enterprise class storage such as EMC, etc SAN technology is so much more reliable than individual consumer grade hard drives that it isn't even worth comparison. Second, it potentially solves the perpetual issue where for those of us with large Tivo local storage (for example, my 2 Roamio Pros), the failure of a unit results in the loss of any recorded data due to the binding of the unit to our content. Of course, this all depends on having reliable and high performance hosted cloud environment - which Tivo certainly has never demonstrated the capability to execute - compared to other providers.

The other issue is that frankly, "out of home access" is a loser proposition. From a technology perspective, it adds layers of complexity due to the "last mile" that are simply not a good architecture. Cloud is SO much better than "out of home" that it also isn't even worth comparison. 

OTA will probably always be around. The problem is that it just isn't a market proposition that can sustain retail success - period. Your best case scenario is that you can get "some" OTA content - but it will always be but a fraction of what you can get via either streaming, or cable/fiber. Always. OTA solutions can only be profitable if they complement non-OTA solutions - not as a standalone.


----------



## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> And, BTW - that was as recently as 12 months ago....


The guide problems is not what is causing tivo's sinking like you state, that is a recent issue. The sinking has been happening for years.

There downfall was relying on patents only for the past 15+ years, while trying to break into the MSO market (which they sued and won) and trying to force retail consumers to adopt to the high cost of the MSO's (cable card rental, high tivo upfront cost and its monthly bill). There was/is no incentive to spend more money on a dvr where its cheaper, easier to acquire, better warranty, and more importantly, tighter integration (VOD, Caller ID, etc).

Here is the truth that some of you never consider - all the above was geared for OLD PEOPLE! Aside from the few of us on the forum who are tivo die hards, Tivos main consumer reach (MSO users) are old and simply watch tv and will never change. they were offered a "good enough, less hassle" way to watch their TV. Nothing more, nothing less.

in 2010, they should of started catering more to the upcoming fad of cord cutting and streaming. Their retail business model should have pivoted to streaming, much cheaper DVR for OTA or both. Create an open platform that companies can put their apps on, combine them, leverage their unified Onepass and increase their data collection for their analytics unit.

Ive had tivo since i was 20, im 38 now with two kids under 6. i have a 6tb tivo, 3 minis that are only used for morning news. We moved on from tivo. My kids watch netflix, amazon, and multiple TV Anywhere apps on the apple tv that gets nicely aggregated by what they like on one interface on the TV app. Along with Plex, they are pros at figuring it out themselves. Along with streaming services, my wife and I use plex. If we need to record something, we use the plex dvr, nicely integrated with the rest of our library.

Tivo can not and will not compete with that in retail as the current crop of consumers start coming up and settling down and those consumers are ditching their physical tv and using devices: Americans are throwing out their TVs-and we might know why

Remember, those watcing tv on an iphone are much younger than the "collective you" on this forum and they vastly outnumber you. Watching tv on a tv is old news.

The simple fact is that everyone outside this forum simply wants to sit and turn on Flip or Flop, not go through hoops and complain like most people here do because they take TV watching too seriously or because they freak out when their SNR level dips a point.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Aero 1, you've contradicted yourself. BTW, I agree with a great deal of your last post. And I said pretty much everything you've stated - more than 5 years ago. 

You've contradicted yourself in first saying that 65k people on this forum have recognized this 17 years ago (they didn't) and now saying it's what everybody outside of this forum said. This forum has largely been filled with people who aren't just way too invested in TV viewing. They are way too invested in TIVO based TV viewing. 

Another point of contention in your post compared to what the majority on this forum have continuously stated - cost. People here will try to make the argument that "over the life of the product", Tivo is "cheaper". But they make the mistake of believing the average consumer wants to go through the hassle of purchasing, having responsibility for paying for hardware failures, and attempting to resell old product with lifetime - all tied to the (flawed) expectation that lifetime units will always hold value. They don't. 

I also agree that the data issues haven't caused the likely outcome. They have simply hastened it. You're absolutely not reading what I wrote, as I've never ever said that the guide data was the root cause of the Tivo demise. To the contrary, I have always believed there have been ever increasing chasms between Tivos kind of "inbred" internal thinking and product roadmap, and what I believed the general public really wanted. The Rovi issue simply accelerated the timeline of their retail demise.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

And back to the point of the thread, the departure of Margret and Ira, and the potential killing of Mavrik, are only a couple actions that I'm expecting to happen as the next 12-18 months roll on. The retail side of Tivo is probably going to continue seeing cost getting taken out without any significant investment right up until they finally put the last nail in the coffin. Anybody buying a new unit and paying for lifetime is IMHO completely throwing their money away.


----------



## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Aero 1, you've contradicted yourself. BTW, I agree with a great deal of your last post. And I said pretty much everything you've stated - more than 5 years ago.
> 
> You've contradicted yourself in first saying that 65k people on this forum have recognized this 17 years ago (they didn't) and now saying it's what everybody outside of this forum said. This forum has largely been filled with people who aren't just way too invested in TV viewing. They are way too invested in TIVO based TV viewing.


i wasnt being serious about 65k people. i was just pointing out that you arent the sole prognosticator of the demise of tivo.

i added to my post the fact that people dont use a TV anymore to watch TV, they use phones and tablets.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Aero 1 said:


> i wasnt being serious about 65k people. i was just pointing out that you arent the sole prognosticator of the demise of tivo.
> 
> i added to my post the fact that people dont use a TV anymore to watch TV, they use phones and tablets.


I understand. But if you're going to point that out, you should also point out that overwhelmingly, the members of this forum disagreed about Tivo becoming irrelevant, and that they had fundamental issues. Those of us that pointed it out were soundly attacked. Frankly, I could be wrong but I don't remember your handle being the author of any of those posts back in '2000 or even in 2010. By massive margins, the most active member on this forum were still bought into Tivo as a viable venture as recently as 12-18 months ago.

And I would correct your second statement a bit. People don't *ONLY* use a TV anymore to watch TV. They use phones, tablets, *computers and TVs*.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> I've always felt that the reason I thought Tivo would be just a memory in terms of retail service in the near future were related a lot more to the following....


I'm not sure that this really is the place/thread for it, but your experience seems to have been very different from mine, in many respects.


> - Nobody, and I mean nobody, (speaking of the average consumer) wants to pay a bunch of money up front for equipment, have a questionable warranty, and then still have to pay even more for "lifetime" (not the old lifetime) or more monthly fees. With so many services having started moving to the cloud years ago, it was a 1970s/1980s solution to a current market need.


I guess I'm not sure what's questionable about the TiVo warranty--the 3-month period for parts and labor, with 1 year only for parts (my Sony products have that as well, unfortunately)? Apart from that, I had thought that TiVo often has been generous, making special deals for out-of-warranty equipment with issues.

I guess that TiVo tried to address the separate subscription fee issue (which applies to cable as well) with the current Roamio OTA, coming with lifetime, and at a nice price-point. And although it's not for me, many people indeed do seem to want to pay a monthly fee rather than a larger up-front.

For OTA use and users, it seems to me that TiVo still is relevant, cloudy days regardless. 


> And on top of that, Tivo seemed to be completely incompetent in designing architecture that relied on internet connectivity - as well as designing equipment and software that were even remotely capable in terms of network reliability and performance. My Tivos have always been the most poorly performing "network devices" of any devices I've ever worked with.


I guess I haven't experienced an internet connectivity issue, as a general matter, and so I'm not quite sure what that might be and why TiVo has been "completely incompetent" there. I have had a network connection glitch (known to TiVo) with a Roamio box and a particular router model, but no issue with a Bolt. 


> - Service. Back to the subject of this thread. IMHO, Margret was the single, solitary, and only available service for Tivo. Regular support is worse than worthless. And it has been for a while.


Fortunately, I've never had to rely on Margret for service, although I have communicated with her. Regular TiVo tech. support has been able to address my few issues over the years and, in fact, has sometimes gone out of its way and been kindly generous.


> Now, with the Rovi acquisition of Tivo and the shift from Gracenote/Nielsen, the basic data that everything relies on is absolute crap. Updates are unreliable. Equipment is expensive and has a questionable lifespan.


Perhaps because I'm OTA, but fortunately, I haven't experienced the data that way--it's down a level, but still generally serves (and seems to have improved some). There have been some issues caused by updates--fortunately, those have been fixed by TiVo (in my case), and the advantages have been way nice.

And the equipment I've purchased, with lifetime, now has been less expensive than ever before--the current Roamio OTA, with its price-point and lifetime, is something TiVo never had before. Also fortunately for me, the equipment has functioned well--I'm not sure about any "questionable lifetime" (at least in relation to any electronics product).

But, back to the topic at hand.


----------



## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> I understand. But if you're going to point that out, you should also point out that overwhelmingly, the members of this forum disagreed about Tivo becoming irrelevant, and that they had fundamental issues. Those of us that pointed it out were soundly attacked. Frankly, I could be wrong but I don't remember your handle being the author of any of those posts back in '2000 or even in 2010. By massive margins, the most active member on this forum were still bought into Tivo as a viable venture as recently as 12-18 months ago.
> 
> And I would correct your second statement a bit. People don't *ONLY* use a TV anymore to watch TV. They use phones, tablets, *computers and TVs*.


Who knew you were keeping such a close eye on the thousands of members in this forum for so many years. You just proved my point, you dont have a clue of the actual market outside this place. You have no idea whats happening or what people are saying outside these walls. You are silo'd.

I have problems with my rokus looking like crap on my tv's because of their colorspace output. I know im in a small demographic but i am not pompous enough to declare their demise if they dont adapt to the market they helped create. Just how like Tivo is in trouble for not adapting to the market.

And you are still wrong, no one that matters (demographics) is buying a tv, no one. No one under 35 is moving into an expensive apartment or house and buying a TV, especially a DVR. They are watching "TV" on something that is a dumb monitor and if its a TV, there definitely is no DVR attached to it.

That is the simple truth that you fail to see and the simple truth that this industry is moving to. It is not sustainable to sell a DVR for the very few (and dropping) that want one.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Aero 1 said:


> i added to my post the fact that people dont use a TV anymore to watch TV, they use phones and tablets.


My hunch is, the LED TV industry, etc. would beg to differ.  But yes, phones and tablets have entered the picture, dramatically.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Well, Mike, you're just way way way way way way way way off base. 

1) The Tivo warranty is a joke, when you compare it to the competition. That is, other DVRs. Since you're renting, you have zero "warranty" issues. If it breaks 2 years later, you just get a new one. Free. Or better said, you just don't even have to worry about parts or labor - or special deals - PERIOD - with the competition. Tivo is NOT competing with your Sony TV warranty. They're competing with devices that in general duplicate what they offer. I'm not blaming Tivo for their warranty. It's the nature of forcing customers to purchase hardware/software as opposed to renting. Can you somehow make an argument that renting is more "expensive"? Sure. See my previous post about why that goes wrong.

2) You (probably because you're OTA) keep harping on OTA as a "solution". It's not. Stop it. It's a completely different market. It's a "niche" market - of a "niche market". It does absolutely nothing whatsoever in any possible definition to change the comparison between Tivo products and their actual competition. Nothing. Period. You represent a minority of a minority in your OTA experience. It is frankly irrelevant when talking about the future of Tivo, because there is zero possibility that Tivo can support itself with OTA as their primary revenue stream. Zero. 

3) Network. Where do I start? How about the BSCs? How about tying too much functionality of an "inhome" product to a poorly designed and executed hosted platform? How about the meager and ridiculously poor performance (from a pure factual data perspective) of the Tivo hardware network adapters? How about the inability to use WiFi? How about the continuous insistence of Tivo in saying they "don't support switches" in troubleshooting? How about the myriad of 133, etc errors? How about the ongoing out of home streaming issues? Wow. 

4) Questionable lifetime? I'm explicitly saying that the core premise of Tivo is not long lived, and for those that are paying for lifetime up front, it is more likely than ever that they wil never hit the break even point.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> And back to the point of the thread, the departure of Margret and Ira, and the potential killing of Mavrik, are only a couple actions that I'm expecting to happen as the next 12-18 months roll on. The retail side of Tivo is probably going to continue seeing cost getting taken out without any significant investment right up until they finally put the last nail in the coffin. Anybody buying a new unit and paying for lifetime is IMHO completely throwing their money away.


And that's what I feared and thought as a possibility when I purchased my first TiVo box, a single-tuner Series 2, 12 years ago.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Blakeintosh said:


> Additionally, the FCC is having high-level conversations with broadcasters and wireless industry executives about possibly abandoning ALL broadcast television frequencies for additional LTE bandwidth, in exchange for broadcasters being permitted a free ride to broadcast digital streams of their feeds over LTE networks. It's a Win-Win for all parties. Broadcasters don't have to build/operate expensive transmitter facilities. Wireless providers get access to additional frequencies for more bandwidth. And consumers no longer have to utilize OTA antenna's to capture signals, if they can utilize a standard LTE chip to receive channels. This could be years down the road, but when you factor in the time and expense of yet another Broadcast conversion with ATSC 3.0, it might be better to just get it over with sooner rather than later.


Hmm, interesting. I follow what's going on with OTA and ATSC 3.0 closely and this is the first I've read anywhere about a serious proposal to broadcast local TV over LTE (i.e. the internet) rather than a dedicated OTA system (i.e. ATSC 1.0 or 3.0). Are you saying that the live broadcast signals of local stations would be transmitted exclusively via LTE (likely via MBSFN) rather than generally over the internet, so that all receivers (e.g. the TV in your living room) would need an LTE chip and antenna? Given stations' and networks' reliance on retrans fees from cable and satellite (which make reception of stations much easier than the need to rely on an OTA antenna), I don't think they want to make it TOO easy to get free locals, so I can't see locals broadcasting as live streams over the open internet (which would make the most sense from a consumer perspective). But perhaps using MBSFN over LTE would be as much of a hassle for consumers as either ATSC 1.0 or 3.0, and therefore not spur more cord-cutting and further erode retrans fees.

Anyhow, any link you might have discussing this concept would be appreciated. Thx.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Aero 1 said:


> Who knew you were keeping such a close eye on the thousands of members in this forum for so many years. You just proved my point, you dont have a clue of the actual market outside this place. You have no idea whats happening or what people are saying outside these walls. You are silo'd.
> 
> And you are still wrong, no one that matters (demographics) is buying a tv, no one. No one under 35 is moving into an expensive apartment or house and buying a TV, especially a DVR. They are watching "TV" on something that is a dumb monitor and if its a TV, there definitely is no DVR attached to it.
> 
> That is the simple truth that you fail to see and the simple truth that this industry is moving to. It is not sustainable to sell a DVR for the very few (and dropping) that want one.


Do you like to argue for just the sake of argument? I'm thinking yes. You continue to misrepresent stuff and contradict yourself. You yourself said that here ON THIS FORUM "65K" were already saying that Tivo was on the wrong side of the future back in 2000 and 2010. Now you're saying that I'm missing the point because people here are "siloed" and didn't get it. Which is it? Did a lot of people here see what was going to happen? Or were they "siloed"?

You also continue to screw up in your assertion that I don't understand what's going on outside of here. Remember, I AM the outsider that disagreed with the common view here. Do you comprehend logic?

You continue to make the dumb mistake of asserting that I'm endorsing DVRs at all. I've been saying for years that it's going to move to IP. That end devices will simply be cloud attached. So thanks for making the point I already made.

As for TVs, I believe it's you that is a bit off. TVs are no longer the sole medium for consuming content. But tables, phones and laptops don't do well for groups watching a game or concert - or movie. Sorry.


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Aero 1 said:


> i added to my post the fact that people dont use a TV anymore to watch TV, they use phones and tablets.


The vast majority still watch TV on a TV. You have a serious case of tunnel vision.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> The other issue is that frankly, "out of home access" is a loser proposition. From a technology perspective, it adds layers of complexity due to the "last mile" that are simply not a good architecture. Cloud is SO much better than "out of home" that it also isn't even worth comparison.


But cloud has the same last mile issue, as well as its own.


> OTA will probably always be around. The problem is that it just isn't a market proposition that can sustain retail success - period. Your best case scenario is that you can get "some" OTA content - but it will always be but a fraction of what you can get via either streaming, or cable/fiber. Always. OTA solutions can only be profitable if they complement non-OTA solutions - not as a standalone.


The content sources have been changing so dramatically--if one wants "it all," I'm not sure there is a single solution right now. Certainly, cable isn't providing it, I don't think (but I'm not a cable guy). Will be interesting to see the landscape 20 years from now.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Mikeguy said:


> And that's what I feared and thought as a possibility when I purchased my first TiVo box, a single-tuner Series 2, 12 years ago.


Basing your current analysis on what you thought 12 years ago makes perfect sense.

To Tivo.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Mikeguy said:


> But cloud has the same last mile issue, as well as its own.
> 
> The content sources have been changing so dramatically--if one wants "it all," I'm not sure there is a single solution right now. Certainly, cable isn't providing it, I don't think (but I'm not a cable guy). Will be interesting to see the landscape 20 years from now.


Cloud does not have the same last mile issue.

If you're watching "recorded content" from your Roamio or Bolt from out of home, you're getting that content through two "last miles". Meaning, the last mile or connection of your viewing device, and the last mile that you're both sending and receiving data from your home.

If you're watching "cloud" recorded content, the connection to the "cloud repository" is at least in theory, Enterprise Class infrastructure and connectivity, with redundant pipes, capacity, etc.

Very very very very very big difference.


----------



## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

IMO the downfall of TiVo is rooted in "good enough" DVR from the MSOs and more recently availability of economical streaming services.

In the past I used TiVo (and ReplayTV) as a massive video archive. I figured I was paying for all this content but never had time to watch it. Today I can have a massive video archive using streaming services.

The main reason I stick with TiVo today is I want to
1) avoid the Comcast $7.45 "per outlet fees" by using single CableCARD and Minis
2) have more control over my content being stored local and streamed over slingbox


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Aero 1 said:


> Who knew you were keeping such a close eye on the thousands of members in this forum for so many years. You just proved my point, you dont have a clue of the actual market outside this place. You have no idea whats happening or what people are saying outside these walls. You are silo'd.
> 
> I have problems with my rokus looking like crap on my tv's because of their colorspace output. I know im in a small demographic but i am not pompous enough to declare their demise if they dont adapt to the market they helped create. Just how like Tivo is in trouble for not adapting to the market.
> 
> ...


What's wrong with the Roku colorspace output? I've had no issues on the nine or ten TVs that I have used ROkus with.

A roku combined with a TiVo is an excellent combo.


----------



## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Do you like to argue for just the sake of argument? I'm thinking yes. You continue to misrepresent stuff and contradict yourself. You yourself said that here ON THIS FORUM "65K" were already saying that Tivo was on the wrong side of the future back in 2000 and 2010. Now you're saying that I'm missing the point because people here are "siloed" and didn't get it. Which is it? Did a lot of people here see what was going to happen? Or were they "siloed"?
> 
> You also continue to screw up in your assertion that I don't understand what's going on outside of here. Remember, I AM the outsider that disagreed with the common view here. Do you comprehend logic?
> 
> ...


Sarcasm man! sarcasm! the 65k was sarcasm! i even lightly pointed it out to you!

the first thing you said in this thread was:



wmhjr said:


> *Cable card is the least of the TiVo problems*. When their core product turned to abhorrently poor quality (guide) the entire value prop evaporated.
> 
> Look back. I predicted this several years ago on this forum.


Cable cards and the problems that it causes for the consumer and its higher costs is more of a problem than the guide data that you stated. You are wrong, completely wrong. the recent problems with guide data did not cause the many head aches that consumers encountered over 10 years ago. The head aches that caused many, many people to give up on tivo and go with an MSO solution. Cable Cards are more of a problem, not the least.

i dont care what you said in the past about Ip, or what you think you predicted, or how right you think you've been. You are not special enough for me to spend time and look at your post history. Our back and forth conversation is about your erroneous first post.

As for TV's, you seem not to comprehend the part were i said the people that matters, the demographics that matter, 35 and under and those growing up now are not and will not be buying TV's! (do i really need to add that its obvious that TV's will still be sold in the future but in a much lower quantity that will and is shifting the market?)

Us "old" people still watch movies, sports, etc on a TV, but we dont matter any more! Tivo is catering only to us, not anyone else. thats how tivo dies, hence the sinking ships with jumping rats.


----------



## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> What's wrong with the Roku colorspace output? I've had no issues on the nine or ten TVs that I have used ROkus with.


We know you never have problems with anything you own, Aaron 

i only have Roku 3's and their RGB colorspace does not look good in my chain of onkyo reciever and samsung tv from 2010. Im sure you remember the Onkyo threads on the roku forum where both roku and onkyo pointed fingers at each other and a few members proved that it was Roku's fault. Roku blamed the HDMI spec and how others dont follow it, bla bla bla and never allowed us to pick a colorspace.



aaronwt said:


> A roku combined with a TiVo is an excellent combo.


Exactly. Thats what i pointed out, thats something Tivo should of done when they and everyone (except a few people here apparently) saw the writing on the wall.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Aero 1 said:


> Sarcasm man! sarcasm! the 65k was sarcasm! i even lightly pointed it out to you!
> 
> the first thing you said in this thread was:
> 
> ...


So, you're saying you're too lazy to look back about what was said, but are OK about making conclusions based on lack of knowledge? And it's OK to use sarcasm to insinuate tons of people on this forum recognized the likely demise of the Tivo proposition by saying "65K", but then effectively say the people on the forum were "siloed" and didn't see it coming? I'm still scratching my head over your logic.

My first post was not erroneous. It was contradicting that an earlier post stating that cablecard and associated "technical difficulties" were the root cause of Tivo falling behind. And that the guide issues are simply the straw that broke the camels back. BTW, since you keep contradicting yourself with every post, where exactly do you think the core problem was? Was it cablecard? Setup? Cost? Quality? Guide issues? Streaming content? Displays? Service? Subscription fees? You change your position with every post.

You seem to want to disagree even with people that agree with you. Have fun with that. You also stated that "no one who matters is still buying a TV". You are flat wrong. Last year, TVs still saw a 2% growth in annual unit sales in North America. If you're suggesting that nobody in your precious demographic was part of those sales, you're just plain nuts.


----------



## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

Aero 1 said:


> The guide problems is not what is causing tivo's sinking like you state, that is a recent issue. The sinking has been happening for years.
> 
> There downfall was relying on patents only for the past 15+ years, while trying to break into the MSO market (which they sued and won) and trying to force retail consumers to adopt to the high cost of the MSO's (cable card rental, high tivo upfront cost and its monthly bill). There was/is no incentive to spend more money on a dvr where its cheaper, easier to acquire, better warranty, and more importantly, tighter integration (VOD, Caller ID, etc).
> 
> ...


This is a close parallel to what moved me on to other options. Whole-home, device, and flexibility of network options made me finally look at alternatives. When introducing Plex into our house - it wasn't too long before _every person_ naturally moved to Plex when given the choice of using one or the other. The interface was natural and easy ... and people found content easier (and had more options while using it). In looking at the HDHomerun, the side-load guide has a nice look to it and I suspect that given the choice, people will naturally move to that. Time will tell, I suppose, at our house.

It was one of the things that intrigued me about Hydra. I thought improving on the side-load concept and adding top/bottom sliding data views was an innovation (similar to how TiVo innovated back-in-the-day with their interface). In fact, I thought it didn't go far enough. I would have blown up the interface completely and started with something new along the lines of pure discovery-based interface. Perhaps the relationship to MSO tie their hands to what they can really do. Or perhaps some allegiance to the old guard hard-core TiVo enthusiasts. I know if I were them and looked at the retail losses the last few quarters ... and then looked at the MSO gains in those same quarters ... I suppose I would decide to forge ahead with Pay-TV relationships also.

People here often forget how silly the sometimes over-the-top rants would appear to somebody who isn't so obsessed about DVR forums that they spend their morning break (like I am) typing responses to threads complaining about other complaints.  Often, the 'enthusiasts' wishes and expectations are just not really feasible in implementation (or general desirability). Make no mistake -- if you want to hasten your product's move to a deep-fringe category ... then guide your roadmap by what the hardcore enthusiasts want. You'll turn your business into a niche business in no-time-flat.

The assertion about the general age of users is probably accurate. Not everybody, of course, but I would bet a majority. People who are pretty locked into how things are because ... that's the way they've always used them. Discussions about the UI are a great place to see examples of that. I bet a look into the archives would find the same arguments made when changes were first made to the old SD UI.

I've listed my last TiVo on various local Facebook 'For Sale' sites in my area. I thought I would give that a try as it would be easier to transfer locally than through an internet sale. But I'm not hopeful of much of a response. I'm advertising a product that is going to have the most appeal to a group that doesn't use social media for that purpose. I don't think I did targeted advertising as well as I could have.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Aero 1 said:


> We know you never have problems with anything you own, Aaron
> 
> i only have Roku 3's and their RGB colorspace does not look good in my chain of onkyo reciever and samsung tv from 2010. Im sure you remember the Onkyo threads on the roku forum where both roku and onkyo pointed fingers at each other and a few members proved that it was Roku's fault. Roku blamed the HDMI spec and how others dont follow it, bla bla bla and never allowed us to pick a colorspace.
> 
> Exactly. Thats what i pointed out, thats something Tivo should of done when they and everyone (except a few people here apparently) saw the writing on the wall.


Currently I have a Roku 3 connected to a Mitsubishi and a ROku 2 connected to an LG. And a ROku Ultra going through an Onkyo before going to a Sony UHD TV.

I did remember some color space issues a long time ago, but they had been fixed I thought.


----------



## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> So, you're saying you're too lazy to look back about what was said, but are OK about making conclusions based on lack of knowledge? And it's OK to use sarcasm to insinuate tons of people on this forum recognized the likely demise of the Tivo proposition by saying "65K", but then effectively say the people on the forum were "siloed" and didn't see it coming? I'm still scratching my head over your logic.
> 
> My first post was not erroneous. It was contradicting that an earlier post stating that cablecard and associated "technical difficulties" were the root cause of Tivo falling behind. And that the guide issues are simply the straw that broke the camels back. BTW, since you keep contradicting yourself with every post, where exactly do you think the core problem was? Was it cablecard? Setup? Cost? Quality? Guide issues? Streaming content? Displays? Service? Subscription fees? You change your position with every post.
> 
> You seem to want to disagree even with people that agree with you. Have fun with that. You also stated that "no one who matters is still buying a TV". You are flat wrong. Last year, TVs still saw a 2% growth in annual unit sales in North America. If you're suggesting that nobody in your precious demographic was part of those sales, you're just plain nuts.


Its apparently very difficult for you to follow a few paths correlating to one area.

Ill try to make this easy for you to understand again. just like in my first post, the reason TIVO suffers is because they are more expensive, cumbersome to install by a normal user, offer no added value (actually reduces value on MSO side) and more importantly, they did not adapt to the market.

The TV side argument, etc was not about why Tivo is sinking. Its about the current demographics that MATTER. The less TV's that are purchased by the demographics that matter, the less TV's that Tivo can attach a DVR to.

and ill add this, Tivo should have released the Maverik instead of the Stream in 2015 or whenever that POS was released and made apps for the Roku, etc.

would you like me spell it out for you some more?


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

eherberg said:


> This is a close parallel to what moved me on to other options. Whole-home, device, and flexibility of network options made me finally look at alternatives. When introducing Plex into our house - it wasn't too long before _every person_ naturally moved to Plex when given the choice of using one or the other. The interface was natural and easy ... and people found content easier (and had more options while using it). In looking at the HDHomerun, the side-load guide has a nice look to it and I suspect that given the choice, people will naturally move to that. Time will tell, I suppose, at our house.


But you're OTA only right? If you want a good whole-home solution on cable Tivo is it.

The HD Homerun (and WMC) are nowhere as good as a Tivo setup on cable (for a variety of reasons including cost of cable cards, crappy WMC extenders etc.), and your only other option is to pay way too much to rent the provider's boxes.

Plex doesn't solve any of the cable restrictions unless you're bootlegging a bunch of content. Don't get me wrong, I use it and am glad to have it as an adjunct to Tivo but it in no way replaces a Tivo + Minis on cable.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Aero 1 said:


> Its apparently very difficult for you to follow a few paths correlating to one area.
> 
> Ill try to make this easy for you to understand again. just like in my first post, the reason TIVO suffers is because they are more expensive, cumbersome to install by a normal user, offer no added value (actually reduces value on MSO side) and more importantly, they did not adapt to the market.
> 
> ...


No, I'm no longer interested in whatever you have to say.


----------



## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> No, I'm no longer interested in whatever you have to say.


so then stop asking questions.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Aero 1 said:


> As for TV's, you seem not to comprehend the part were i said the people that matters, the demographics that matter, 35 and under and those growing up now are not and will not be buying TV's! (do i really need to add that its obvious that TV's will still be sold in the future but in a much lower quantity that will and is shifting the market?)


I guess my 23-year old son and his girlfriend are outliers since they watch TV shows and movies on the TV and not on tablets or phones or even their computers. YouTube short videos sure and my son streams gaming to his phone or tablet but that's it.

Scott


----------



## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

Yes -- OTA for me. 8 years ago now (long before it was 'cool'), cable was losing value for us.

But even for those with cable, a cable-card HDHomeRun and DVR software is a viable solution now.


slowbiscuit said:


> But you're OTA only right? If you want a good whole-home solution on cable Tivo is it.
> 
> The HD Homerun (and WMC) are nowhere as good as a Tivo setup on cable (for a variety of reasons including cost of cable cards, crappy WMC extenders etc.), and your only other option is to pay way too much to rent the provider's boxes.
> 
> Plex doesn't solve any of the cable restrictions unless you're bootlegging a bunch of content. Don't get me wrong, I use it and am glad to have it as an adjunct to Tivo but it in no way replaces a Tivo + Minis on cable.


Yeah -- OTA for me. About 8 years ago cable lost it's value for me. I cord-cut before it was 'cool' like it is now. 

For our use, if we ever went down that route, I would probably use the cable companies streaming application. I assume most have them now. Hell, even my out-in-the-boonies small-town cable provider has a Roku app to stream their channels on. If I really needed to record something, I would probably just use Playon for that. Not a solution for most folks, though, I'm sure.

But all hypothetical for me ... cause there ain't no way I'm going back to cable.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> I guess my 23-year old son and his girlfriend are outliers since they watch TV shows and movies on the TV and not on tablets or phones or even their computers. YouTube short videos sure and my son streams gaming to his phone or tablet but that's it.
> 
> Scott


 Not outliers at all. The "no tv for millennials" is overstated.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> Cloud does not have the same last mile issue.
> 
> If you're watching "recorded content" from your Roamio or Bolt from out of home, you're getting that content through two "last miles". Meaning, the last mile or connection of your viewing device, and the last mile that you're both sending and receiving data from your home.
> 
> ...


Ah, so when you're saying "last mile," then, you're also including the first mile. Depending on the architecture, that may be something of an issue as well, with a cloud device. Just sayin'--the tech. is not necessarily there, for total comfort. Spoken by one who was using a cloud DVR.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> Basing your current analysis on what you thought 12 years ago makes perfect sense.
> 
> To Tivo.


Hey, nice snipe (although an inaccurate characterization, of course).  My point was, people always have been saying that TiVo could be going away/die out. I guess, who knows (apart from your opinion).


wmhjr said:


> Well, Mike, you're just way way way way way way way way off base.
> 
> 1) The Tivo warranty is a joke, when you compare it to the competition. That is, other DVRs. Since you're renting, you have zero "warranty" issues. If it breaks 2 years later, you just get a new one. Free. Or better said, you just don't even have to worry about parts or labor - or special deals - PERIOD - with the competition. Tivo is NOT competing with your Sony TV warranty. They're competing with devices that in general duplicate what they offer. I'm not blaming Tivo for their warranty. It's the nature of forcing customers to purchase hardware/software as opposed to renting. Can you somehow make an argument that renting is more "expensive"? Sure. See my previous post about why that goes wrong.


Ah, you're jumping from one field to another--from the warranty on a purchased device to a warranty on a rented one. In that case, perhaps it would be more apt/comparable to look at TiVo's monthly subscription service, which carries TiVo's "continual care," for which there is a $49 box replacement charge after the first 90 days. Not free, of course, but far from "a joke," it seems to me. If you want to look at true comparables (rather than jumping fields) and outright purchases (the point of my mentioning Sony's current warranty practice), you could look at one of the other current DVR options.


> 2) You (probably because you're OTA) keep harping on OTA as a "solution". It's not. Stop it. It's a completely different market. It's a "niche" market - of a "niche market". It does absolutely nothing whatsoever in any possible definition to change the comparison between Tivo products and their actual competition. Nothing. Period. You represent a minority of a minority in your OTA experience. It is frankly irrelevant when talking about the future of Tivo, because there is zero possibility that Tivo can support itself with OTA as their primary revenue stream. Zero.


Aw, of course it's a solution--for those in the OTA area. The fact that a particular user (such as yourself) isn't in that arena doesn't somehow make that irrelevant. And apparently, TiVo thought enough of this "niche of a niche" and "minority of a minority" to have a product for it, the Roamio OTA--reflecting changing user preferences with the cutting of cords. But perhaps I don't have access to the inside information that you do.


> 3) Network. Where do I start? How about the BSCs? How about tying too much functionality of an "inhome" product to a poorly designed and executed hosted platform? How about the meager and ridiculously poor performance (from a pure factual data perspective) of the Tivo hardware network adapters? How about the inability to use WiFi? How about the continuous insistence of Tivo in saying they "don't support switches" in troubleshooting? How about the myriad of 133, etc errors? How about the ongoing out of home streaming issues? Wow.


Wow. I guess you're having lots of problems there. Fortunately, that's not been my experience. But, of course, would be nice if anything and everything was handled/improved--no denying that. (Btw, I'm not sure what you mean by an "inability to use WiFi"--my TiVo boxes do.)


> 4) Questionable lifetime? I'm explicitly saying that the core premise of Tivo is not long lived, and for those that are paying for lifetime up front, it is more likely than ever that they wil never hit the break even point.


Ah--well, with only a few-year break-even point (can be 3 years or less, depending on the offer purchased under), hopefully people will. We're already at the 1-year anniversary of Rivo. But of course, that's always a concern--as it was when I first purchased 12 years ago.

And, again, yes, sad to see Margret and Ira go, to the extent the case.  Hopefully, they have seen this thread, to see how much many have appreciated them.


----------



## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

I sure am gonna miss havin' Margret around... 

What's the title of this thread again?  :sleeping:


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Always nice to have a face for a name--Ira and Margret (Ira's the one on top  ). Credentials at LinkedIn.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Blakeintosh said:


> Here's a screenshot of Comcast's X1.


OK, that's all fluff if you ask me. (Ironically, many people would (wrongly) say that my employer's products are often fluff..)

I just want something that will reliably record TV.. things like being able to keep track of episodes for streaming too (e.g. a OP for streaming + recording) are great too.. But I don't need weather, etc., on my TV. I just want to watch TV shows (without commercials).


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Not outliers at all. The "no tv for millennials" is overstated.


Obviously we were bad parents and raised him wrong. Probably due to having a TiVo since he was 5. 

We also sit near the front in a theater as it's all about being immersed otherwise I might as well watch all movies at home (or on your phone/tablet).

Scott


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

With cable cards and tuning adapters, there never was a level playing field. The cable company DVR always had the cable card installed and paired and was essentially plug and play. Tivo will never be plug and play with cable cards.


----------



## delgadobb (Mar 6, 2004)

wmhjr said:


> _(In response to Aero 1)_Do you like to argue for just the sake of argument? I'm thinking yes. You continue to misrepresent stuff and contradict yourself.


Three words.

Pot. Kettle. Black.


----------



## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

I really feel my Premieres will be my last Tivos (at least that I buy outright, hardware-wise). Nothing they've done since then has wow'd me. And these days everything is going IPTV with apps and cloud DVRs, so no need for $1100 lifetime boxes. Just got a Prime TV and stick it to your TV.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

well, there goes the last bit of real tivo customer service, rovi has effectively leveled it so there's nothing left but the rubble. 

will i keep using tivo? we'll see, but i can guarantee this - it won't be for the reasons of guide accuracy and reliability, or for their good customer service.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> well, there goes the last bit of real tivo customer service, rovi has effectively leveled it so there's nothing left but the rubble.


Certainly a sad event, if Margret and Ira are moving on.

At the same time, I don't know what will happen in the future (or even the events here), but, boy, I sure don't see and am not experiencing your Armageddon.*

*Written as I'm nicely watching a recorded show on my TiVo box.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Mikeguy said:


> Certainly a sad event, if Margret and Ira are moving on.
> 
> At the same time, I don't know what will happen in the future (or even the events here), but, boy, I sure don't see and am not experiencing your Armageddon.*
> 
> *Written as I'm nicely watching a recorded show on my TiVo box.


 i was referring to the level of customer service - have you called tivo tech support lately? without margret, we're practically on our own now it's been wholly outsourced, based on my recent experiences interacting with the international call center.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> i was referring to the level of customer service - have you called tivo tech support lately? without margret, we're practically on our own now it's been wholly outsourced, based on my recent experiences interacting with the international call center.


Ah, got it--I didn't realize that you only were talking about customer service.

I've dealt with customer service recently, and it was fine (albeit with a rushed, off-shore feel to it--not my fave). But no experience with tech. support itself recently (fortunately  )--I have no idea where it's being done and if it's able to match (and better, as it should) prior support. Sad to hear if it's sliding, of course.

Would be ideal (if Margret indeed is leaving) if TiVo would see the value of this forum and appoint a Margret successor and liaison. In fact, I've thought that Ira's and Margret's participation here itself was not enough and that TiVo should devote more to TCF--heck, make it a (knowledgeable) intern position.


----------



## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> Would be ideal (if Margret indeed is leaving) if TiVo would see the value of this forum and appoint a Margret successor and liaison. In fact, I've thought that Ira's and Margret's participation here itself was not enough and that TiVo should devote more to TCF--heck, make it a (knowledgeable) intern position.


Agree. Dish has an internet and social media presence on satelliteguys that has become indispensable.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Many years ago, there were TiVo employees here, such as Richard Bullwinkle and "TiVoPony". As someone with decades of experience doing customer-facing support, I wholeheartedly agree that an official presence in support forums is valuable. I suppose, though, that TiVo prefers to focus on their own hosted forums (which I have not looked at for years.)


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

stevel said:


> Many years ago, there were TiVo employees here, such as Richard Bullwinkle and "TiVoPony". As someone with decades of experience doing customer-facing support, I wholeheartedly agree that an official presence in support forums is valuable. I suppose, though, that TiVo prefers to focus on their own hosted forums (which I have not looked at for years.)


The last time I went there, significantly lesser traffic/volume, from what I could tell.


----------



## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

Mikeguy said:


> The last time I went there, significantly lesser traffic/volume, from what I could tell.


And the official responses from Rivo support reps there could be characterized as useless at best, and asinine at worst.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NorthAlabama said:


> i was referring to the level of customer service - *have you called tivo tech support lately?* without margret, we're practically on our own now it's been wholly outsourced, based on my recent experiences interacting with the international call center.


I know: the sky is falling, the sky is falling! 

HOWEVER, last week I did in fact have occasion to call TiVo support regarding a very obscure, hard-to-diagnose issue relating to the Xfinity on Demand app on my Mini. I won't go into the details here except to say that I had spent two weeks troubleshooting and talking to several Comcast tier 2 support techs and had exchanged dozens of PMs with a guru at the Comcast Help and Support Forums, all to no avail.

The TiVo tech I wound up talking to was probably located offshore (Philippines?), but her English was very good. She was extremely thorough and I talked her through a check of all relevant settings in my TiVo account. She then suggested that she conference in Comcast support and we proceeded to engage in an extended conversation with that CSR, who ran through the usual diagnostics and troubleshooting steps, again to no avail. The TiVo rep said that she was a former tier 3 Comcast tech herself and kept hammering away at the Comcast CSR when the latter wanted to write off Comcast as the culprit for my issue. The total time on the phone had to have been well over an hour, and, although my problem remains unresolved for the present, I could not have asked for a better support experience from TiVo given the unusual nature of my particular issue.

HST, CSR roulette will always apply so that, as always, YMMV.

And lastly: Farewell, Margaret and Ira! You will be sorely missed.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Mikeguy said:


> I guess I never really understood the great idea and draw of cloud storage with Mavrik. Why not just use out-of-home access for shows on one's (non-Mavrik) TiVo box?


I have no idea what Mavrik is, but it sounds like this is some kind of cloud storage solution that _works_.

At least for me, show downloading (& streaming) is very very very broken. I would stream everything (so as to not take up space on my iPad), but since streaming stops an average of every few minutes (with at least many minutes of wait before a successful attempt again), I instead download, which, based on channel (must have something to do with the specific file data), takes many tries, or many many many many many tries, to get a single hour long show downloaded... and even then, it will usually be glitchy (at the times when downloading stopped and I had to restart many minutes later), and once in a while, either fail to play after a certain point or have a spot that completely freezes (but in this case I can usually skip forward and miss only a small chunk).

Yes, I've tried to report this, but nothing has come of it.

BTW, it actually works _better_ for me nowadays than it did a couple of years ago... as bad as that is.


----------



## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

stevel said:


> Many years ago, there were TiVo employees here, such as Richard Bullwinkle and "TiVoPony". As someone with decades of experience doing customer-facing support, I wholeheartedly agree that an official presence in support forums is valuable. I suppose, though, that TiVo prefers to focus on their own hosted forums (which I have not looked at for years.)


they have forums? that's news to me.


----------



## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

b_scott said:


> they have forums? that's news to me.


TiVo - Customer Help Forums


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

b_scott said:


> they have forums? that's news to me.





osu1991 said:


> TiVo - Customer Help Forums


For the most part, their "support" forums suck.


----------



## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

It has the feeling of being monitored by the same off-shore people doing phone support. Level-1 answers for everything. Nearly all problems have a solution provided of 'repeat guided setup'.


----------



## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Hard to point a finger at the poor customer support of any one or a few companies when the reality is that many businesses of all sizes adopted the business model that_ the customer exists for the convenience of the company instead of the other way around_ years ago and they continue to embrace it.

For DBS, cable, and TiVo companies their #1 threat is customer churn yet they think up new ways to drive their customers away. In the cellular industry customers jump around even before their contract commitment expires and other cell companies will buy you out of your commitment to acquire a new customer.

Think TiVo has gone downhill since ROVI bought it? DirecTV has completely changed its personality and approach to customer service since AT&T bought them. DirecTV is now every bit as bad as being an AT&T cellular customer and they led the DBS industry in customer satisfaction and retention before the sell out.

Dish Network... Charlie Ergen runs it like a third world dictatorship and enthusiastically embraced substandard (less costly) offshore support and customer service early on while continuing over the years to lower the bar in that regard.

For many, right now TiVo is the best choice for OTA with DVR features. Think the cloud is the answer? Wait till their network or your ISP is down or your stored recordings vaporize.

The Roamio OTA is a competent box for cord cutters except when ROVI screws up the guide info and I favor having control over my recordings in a box on my shelf rather than having to rely on my ISP to watch TV.

JMO


----------



## mahermusic (Mar 12, 2003)

stevel said:


> Many years ago, there were TiVo employees here, such as Richard Bullwinkle and "TiVoPony". As someone with decades of experience doing customer-facing support, I wholeheartedly agree that an official presence in support forums is valuable. I suppose, though, that TiVo prefers to focus on their own hosted forums (which I have not looked at for years.)


This. Actually, the CEO of T-Mobile, John Legere, regularly (and I mean DAILY) interacts with his customers. He's emailed and tweeted me back on questions multiple times, and routinely listens to his customers, and has made "command decisions" that affect huge portions of T-Mobile from listening to customer feedback. They're the only major US cell company that has seen, I think it is now, 16 straight quarters of growth. TiVo could do the same thing.... if they wanted to.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

chiguy50 said:


> I know: the sky is falling, the sky is falling!


have you ever found customer service repeatedly unresponsive, and needed to interact with margret as a last chance for help?

have you experienced the change in customer service levels with comcast once they outsourced internationally, with nowhere else to turn for help?

has the customer service bar been lowered to a point where bragging about how well customer service speaks the english language is considered a positive?

my concerns aren't irrational, they're based in experience. will the sky fall? no, of course not. will tivo users lose an important communication channel to help resolve real issues after exhausting all other resources for help? you bet.

i may never need the help of margret again, and i'm not saying she was perfect, but she was a point of contact with the power to affect change who truly cared (which is uncommon), and her professionalism and attention to customers will be sorely missed - a true gem, and very rare.


----------



## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

lpwcomp said:


> osu1991 said:
> 
> 
> > b_scott said:
> ...


I glanced at the first two pages of 'TiVo Help Forums -> TiVo Troubleshooting' - pretty much "The Blind Leading the Blind" (except for the yet unanswered post from one user on page 2 who lost it over a TBS Wrecked Program Guide problem  - maybe that's why I found one episode recorded on a SAT instead of the usual TUE).

I figure that if I'm going to take the time to read about OTHER folks TiVo problems (to be familiar with them in case I happen to experience one), I might as well read from a forum where there are also CORRECT answers.


----------



## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

just4tivo said:


> *Hard to point a finger at the poor customer support of any one or a few companies* when the reality is that many businesses of all sizes adopted the business model that_ the customer exists for the convenience of the company instead of the other way around_ years ago and they continue to embrace it...
> ---SNIP---


Just about every major US company that I find the need to contact Customer Service has switched / out-sourced to either India or the Philippines, reading from scripts, with a cacophony / party usually going on in the background in the Philippines. After they politely read me their script (which you understand they are MANDATED to do as terms of their employment), I politely ask them, if they cannot solve my problem (and MANY have no idea of / have never seen the technology we deal with on a daily basis; it's a different culture - pre-teens here probably have a better technical understanding than these poor CSRs), to please connect me to their supervisor. They usually initially balk, since it probably reflects back on their performance, but *I* paid for the product and *I* expect the proper, competent support. Don't lose your temper, don't shout. If necessary, hang up and call back. Not fun, but that's the way the world works today...

*OT:*


just4tivo said:


> ...For many, right now TiVo is the best choice for OTA with DVR features. *Think the cloud is the answer? Wait till their network or your ISP is down or your stored recordings vaporize*.
> 
> The Roamio OTA is a competent box for cord cutters except when ROVI screws up the guide info and *I favor having control over my recordings in a box on my shelf rather than having to rely on my ISP to watch TV*...


Until you have a product that you paid for 'in your hand', you're just 'renting it', IMO. Keep that in mind when you bypass the policy statement when installing software apps, or even the Windows OS itself.

RE: TV shows - while most (weekly Prime Time) shows are 'Watch & Delete', the few movies that I enjoy (that aren't restricted from transferring) are saved on HDDs. I just bought a few *NOONTEC-TerraMaster F4-220 NAS Server 4-Bay Intel Dual Core 2.41GHz 2GB RAM Network RAID Storage for $219 + Free Shipping at NeweggFlash* (plus $25 OFF w/ MasterPass) yesterday (2x F4-220, 1x F2-220; Intel Celeron w/2GB RAM, expandable to 4GB w/laptop RAM) to house my WD Red 3TB and 4TB HDDs that I've been collecting. I debated (with myself) back and forth on a dedicated PC vs a NAS and after six hours of researching a brand of NAS that I never heard of before yesterday's Newegg E-Mail, 20-35 watts power consumption in a box slightly larger than the bare HDDs that can run Plex *AND* transcode up to 720p won out. [Another benefit is that the OS is located on a plug-in flash drive. A fellow on YouTube has loaded Xpenology and Windows Server 2012 (on two different flash drives of course) and run both. There's a VGA OUT on the motherboard and 2 USB ports on the back (for a keyboard and mouse). Quite a different NAS from QNAP or Synology.]


----------



## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

ClearToLand said:


> Just about every major US company that I find the need to contact Customer Service has switched / out-sourced to either India or the Philippines, reading from scripts, with a cacophony / party usually going on in the background in the Philippines. After they politely read me their script (which you understand they are MANDATED to do as terms of their employment), I politely ask them, if they cannot solve my problem (and MANY have no idea of / have never seen the technology we deal with on a daily basis; it's a different culture - pre-teens here probably have a better technical understanding than these poor CSRs), to please connect me to their supervisor. They usually initially balk, since it probably reflects back on their performance, but *I* paid for the product and *I* expect the proper, competent support. Don't lose your temper, don't shout. If necessary, hang up and call back. Not fun, but that's the way the world works today...


Agreed and that will continue until those who won't tolerate it start to vote with their wallets.
When revenue drops businesses are more receptive to what the customers expect (and used to get)... sometimes



ClearToLand said:


> *OT:* Until you have a product that you paid for 'in your hand', you're just 'renting it', IMO. Keep that in mind when you bypass the policy statement when installing software apps, or even the Windows OS itself.
> 
> RE: TV shows - while most (weekly Prime Time) shows are 'Watch & Delete', the few movies that I enjoy (that aren't restricted from transferring) are saved on HDDs. I just bought a few *NOONTEC-TerraMaster F4-220 NAS Server 4-Bay Intel Dual Core 2.41GHz 2GB RAM Network RAID Storage for $219 + Free Shipping at NeweggFlash* (plus $25 OFF w/ MasterPass) yesterday (2x F4-220, 1x F2-220; Intel Celeron w/2GB RAM, expandable to 4GB w/laptop RAM) to house my WD Red 3TB and 4TB HDDs that I've been collecting. I debated (with myself) back and forth on a dedicated PC vs a NAS and after six hours of researching a brand of NAS that I never heard of before yesterday's Newegg E-Mail, 20-35 watts power consumption in a box slightly larger than the bare HDDs that can run Plex *AND* transcode up to 720p won out. [Another benefit is that the OS is located on a plug-in flash drive. A fellow on YouTube has loaded Xpenology and Windows Server 2012 (on two different flash drives of course) and run both. There's a VGA OUT on the motherboard and 2 USB ports on the back (for a keyboard and mouse). Quite a different NAS from QNAP or Synology.]


While I am capable of doing it do not believe it is the responsibility of a customer to create an IT department and/or buy additional hardware (and maintain it) in their home to watch, record, and play back TV programs and movies.

That you choose to do so achieves your goal and that is your choice.


----------



## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

TiVo M was one hot Tivo Babe, they need to keep her!


----------



## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

I didn't realize Margret had a title change in early 2016.

_VP Product Development & Chief Design Officer (March 2016 - present)
VP Design & Engineering, Chief Design Officer (February 2013 - February 2016)_

Does Eric Dorsey handle overseeing engineering now?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/margretschmidt
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericdorsey


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> Agreed and that will continue until those who won't tolerate it start to vote with their wallets. When revenue drops businesses are more receptive to what the customers expect (and used to get)... sometimes


 Emphasis on the "sometimes". In some cases the business offering is simply a strategic offering. Once the costs of maintaining the strategic offering exceed the benefits the best option for the business is to simply discontinue the strategic offering, it having perhaps already served enough of its purpose.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

bicker said:


> Emphasis on the "sometimes". In some cases the business offering is simply a strategic offering. Once the costs of maintaining the strategic offering exceed the benefits the best option for the business is to simply discontinue the strategic offering, it having perhaps already served enough of its purpose.


And sometimes, businesses are just stupid.


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bicker said:


> Emphasis on the "sometimes". In some cases the business offering is simply a strategic offering. Once the costs of maintaining the strategic offering exceed the benefits the best option for the business is to simply discontinue the strategic offering, it having perhaps already served enough of its purpose.


Err.. Yeah, I think, although I'm not at all sure I understood this.

My take is that TiVo's analysis may be that the additional cost of providing better support would require raising the product prices to a point where sales would fall to an unacceptable level. Training CSR's for good support of TiVo's is no simple matter given the complex array of issues that can arise. And typical buyers base their purchase decisions mainly on features and price rather than quality of customer support. I think the consensus is that TiVo products already are somewhat pricey.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The only reason I've ever called Tivo is to add a used Tivo to my account or ask for reduced price lifetime service.


----------



## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

dlfl said:


> Err.. Yeah, I think, although I'm not at all sure I understood this.
> 
> My take is that TiVo's analysis may be that the additional cost of providing better support would require raising the product prices to a point where sales would fall to an unacceptable level. Training CSR's for good support of TiVo's is no simple matter given the complex array of issues that can arise. And typical buyers base their purchase decisions mainly on features and price rather than quality of customer support. I think the consensus is that TiVo products already are somewhat pricey.


Or TiVo can make their hardware work, thoroughly debug their software, and stop screwing up the guide so there would be less calls to support and they could manage with less personnel right here at home.

TiVo seems to be ignoring the fact that there's a rush of people who don't want to be paying DirecTV, Dish, and for sure Comcrap who would embrace the Roamio OTA. If only there was a way for TiVo to get the word out about this magic box they offer that works on FREE TV?


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> And sometimes, businesses are just stupid.


Far less often than consumers like to think.

This message may have been entered via voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.


----------



## waterchange (Jun 29, 2010)

TiVo Margaret just tweeted about next gen UI field trials so it doesn't appear that she's imminently on her way out.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

waterchange said:


> TiVo Margaret just tweeted about next gen UI field trials so it doesn't appear that she's imminently on her way out.


Yep, I found that real curious - not sure what to make of it. Perhaps the parties have reconsidered and worked it out? Perhaps my intel is wrong? Perhaps she's just remaining fully engaged until her departure, whenever that is?


----------



## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

In case some of you weren't aware, Margret has quite a resume:

Margret Schmidt Chief Design Officer


----------



## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

davezatz said:


> Yep, I found that real curious - not sure what to make of it. Perhaps the parties have reconsidered and worked it out? Perhaps my intel is wrong? Perhaps she's just remaining fully engaged until her departure, whenever that is?


she could also have scheduled tweets.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

davezatz said:


> Yep, I found that real curious - not sure what to make of it. Perhaps the parties have reconsidered and worked it out? Perhaps my intel is wrong? Perhaps she's just remaining fully engaged until her departure, whenever that is?


It may be that she agreed to stick around until a certain point (e.g. end of the year), by which time TiVo expects to have finalized and deployed the new Hydra UI on a large scale (i.e. to retail Bolts, Roamios and Minis). Maybe getting Hydra out the door is Margret's swan song.


----------



## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

Assuming the rumor is true, Margret seems like the type of person that would want to see the Hydra rollout to completion.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

mrizzo80 said:


> Assuming the rumor is true, Margret seems like the type of person that would want to see the Hydra rollout to completion.


And put in a trap door that initiates 3 days after her leaving. Kidding!!!


----------



## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

I'd rather TiVo get the guide right than jam Hydra down my throat.

Maybe getting Hydra out the door is MY swan song with TiVo.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> I'd rather TiVo get the guide right than jam Hydra down my throat.


That's like telling a marketing manager to fix a bug in the software. Excellent products and services have come about because people have come together to apply disparate expertise to an enterprise. People working within today's modern enterprises aren't interchangeable one for another without limit.


----------



## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

b_scott said:


> she could also have scheduled tweets.


I highly doubt she'd schedule a tweet to solicit beta testers, particularly since the need for them is not date certain.


----------



## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Yep, I found that real curious - not sure what to make of it. Perhaps the parties have reconsidered and worked it out? Perhaps my intel is wrong? Perhaps she's just remaining fully engaged until her departure, whenever that is?


Usually when one company takes over another, they keep the upper-level managers for a year or so to help with the transition and then gently push them out the airplane door with golden parachutes.

Of course she's remaining fully engaged until her departure -- that's her job. She's not going to sit at her PC all day playing solitaire. That's not what Tivo is paying her for.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

just4tivo said:


> I'd rather TiVo get the guide right than jam Hydra down my throat.
> 
> Maybe getting Hydra out the door is MY swan song with TiVo.


I thought Hydra was supposed to be optional?


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> I thought Hydra was supposed to be optional?


That's what Margret had said earlier.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

davezatz said:


> Yeah, supposedly optional for existing users/boxes... however, maybe one-way -- *didn't sound like you could revert once updated*?


What I recall reading was, the box would have to be returned back to TiVo for that to be done.

Hey: at $100 a pop, a new profit center!


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Mikeguy said:


> What I recall reading was, the box would have to be returned back to TiVo for that to be done.
> 
> Hey: at $100 a pop, a new profit center!


I would think Tivo would just return a refurbished Tivo with the old UI and all your recordings would be lost.


----------



## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

davezatz said:


> I'm hearing both Ira Bahr and Magret Schmidt will be leaving TiVo. Doesn't necessarily mean something... or it might. Roadmap and staffing changes, at their level, after a merger are pretty common and Margret has been there 100 years - so could just be time for change. Or maybe not. In any event, I'm hopeful retail carries on and that their project teams figure out how to multitask and iterate faster. I should add I haven't confirmed Margret's departure yet...


Well its official now as this is Margret's last day at TiVo. This is most likely the end of the consumer TiVo also.
Farewell from TiVoMargret


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> Well its official now as this is Margret's last day at TiVo. This is most likely the end of the consumer TiVo also.
> Farewell from TiVoMargret


While I'm sad to see her go, you've made a completely illogical leap to it being the "end of the consumer Tivo" unless you and she have been privately discussing that scenario over drinks.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Disagree. Her departure, no real visibility of a "similar role" being filled by somebody else, and Rovi/Tivo public statements about the future of the retail - it's not at all an "illogical leap". It's an opinion based on data - not a fact, but not in any possible definition an "illogical leap".


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

We were screwed when the Rovi purchase/merger was approved.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

How long ago did Pony leave? We felt the same way then. I think this is a bigger blow, but there's a new falling sky post every six months since the beginning.


----------



## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> Disagree. Her departure, no real visibility of a "similar role" being filled by somebody else, and Rovi/Tivo public statements about the future of the retail - it's not at all an "illogical leap". It's an opinion based on data - not a fact, but not in any possible definition an "illogical leap".


But there's a huge difference between not creating new retail products and not selling/supporting existing ones. I see absolutely nothing that hints that TiVo would stop supporting existing newer products any time soon. Obviously you still need a cable card and a QAM based cable system but TiVo support doesn't seem to be going anywhere.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

NYHeel said:


> But there's a huge difference between not creating new retail products and not selling/supporting existing ones. I see absolutely nothing that hints that TiVo would stop supporting existing newer products any time soon. Obviously you still need a cable card and a QAM based cable system but TiVo support doesn't seem to be going anywhere.


And? He didn't say that support would end today. Though clearly it is diminished. I also don't see anything official that Tivo is going to stop support. He didn't even insinuate that. However, I do see a logical conclusion that there won't be new products, and that we're approaching end of life for the retail market. After all, they won't support even existing products forever.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> Disagree. Her departure, no real visibility of a "similar role" being filled by somebody else, and Rovi/Tivo public statements about the future of the retail - it's not at all an "illogical leap". It's an opinion based on data - not a fact, but not in any possible definition an "illogical leap".


Unfortunately I have to agree with you. There is no way to look at her departure as a positive for TiVo consumer products and it certainly is easy, even from my limited knowledge of TiVo's internal workings, to see it as a negative. How big a negative depends on if someone else ends up filling a similar role or not. When I first started with this forum there were several other very active TiVo employees who posted regular here that when they left people were also fairly upset. The bigger problem in my mind is that at this point we still appear to need a direct contact with someone as high up as she was to get some(many?) individual issues addressed.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Some of the comments made were over the top over-emotionalized. Our TiVos still work and will work for a while. The TiVos we have now are perhaps our last TiVos, true, but it is nice while it lasts. TiVo never struck me as a viable consumer product.

This message may have been entered via voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

bicker said:


> Some of the comments made were over the top over-emotionalized. Our TiVos still work and will work for a while. The TiVos we have now are perhaps our last TiVos, true, but it is nice while it lasts. TiVo never struck me as a viable consumer product.
> 
> This message may have been entered via voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.


Completely agree, except I'm not sure what was over the top over-emotionalized. I thought Jeds comment was rational. I didn't read into it that he thought it getting turned off today.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Jed1 said:


> Well its official now as this is Margret's last day at TiVo. This is most likely the end of the consumer TiVo also.
> Farewell from TiVoMargret


Part of me is in denial. When I see 20.7.2 Release Notes here or on the web site I may regain some faith. Plus there is the pending beta.

With all the recent hype of a TiVo-based MSO STB, I'm not ready to give up. Yet.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

It seems to me that the merger with Rovi was both a good and bad thing for retail TiVo owners. It's probably a good thing in that the new company is bigger, more diversified and, IMO, far more likely to survive and succeed into the next decade than was pre-merger TiVo. So I'd say that the merger increased the chances that current retail TiVos will continue to receive service for many years (right alongside all those MSO-deployed TiVos like the new Arris MG2 and Evolution Digital eBox), at least in the form of ongoing guide data and bug fixes (and possibly new features, like the Hydra UI, to the extent that development and deployment of those features dovetail with the company's B2B efforts).

On the other hand, it seems pretty obvious now -- based on Rovi's B2B-only history, based on current management's direct comments about future retail endeavors, based on the axing of the planned TiVo Mavrik product and the downscaling of plans for a high-end Bolt to the Bolt+ that was actually released, and finally, based on Margret's departure today -- that the merger with Rovi is also precipitating a retreat from retail efforts to some extent. (Perhaps that would have happened anyway, even without the merger, given the sunsetting of CableCARD and the lack of a replacement standard.)

Given the imminent release of the new retail Mini 4K as well as the new retail voice-enabled remote, I doubt we'll see TiVo stop selling their existing line-up of retail devices any time soon, although I also don't expect them to roll out any new model retail DVRs in the future either. Perhaps we'll see them partner with another CE company to bring one or more future OTA DVRs (e.g. "Philips DVR powered by TiVo") to market, particularly once ATSC 3.0 stations begin broadcasting in some major markets in the next year or two. How good those products might be and how well they'd be supported are, of course, unknown. Eventually, as the existing Bolt, Bolt+ and Roamio OTA retail models become outdated, we'll probably see TiVo completely exit from direct participation in the retail market, other than ongoing support for existing previously-sold units.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

speculation, even when information based, is still speculation, and a waste of time and energy until an official announcement is made (or leaked) - who knows what new options will be available for consumers by then, when or if it even impacts tivo retail...


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I am not going to repost NashGuy's post but I agree and would like to add that things change and we don't know what a future FCC or Congress will do. While it seems very unlikely today that satellite companies, cable companies using IPTV tech, or OTT cable replacement services using IPTV will be required to support third party STBs/DVRs like QAM cable providers have to today (meaning not just provide an app for platforms they want to, but follow a standard and allow any hardware company to access and control the service) it is not an impossibility. 

Also if TiVo builds the hardware or supports third party hardware like Roku is doing with some TV manufactures it really is of no concern or difference to me, it will still be a TiVo powered DVR and in my mind likely be what I use to record whatever is being broadcast via OTA (which I hope is via ATSC 3.0 and UHD sometime soon)


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

NorthAlabama said:


> speculation, even when information based, is still speculation, and a waste of time and energy until an official announcement is made (or leaked) - who knows what new options will be available for consumers by then, when or if it even impacts tivo retail...


I would not agree with this in any way. Speculation is necessary when you're talking about substantial costs to purchase and adopt new technology - or choose between existing capabilities. Those who "Speculated" that Beta wasn't going to be able to compete with VHS were rewarded with recordings that could be played for years without going through hoops. Those who "Speculated" that OS/2 2.1 wasn't getting enough support and looked like it was going to be of questionable future were rewarded by not having to migrate Operating systems or dealing with difficulty in getting drivers and supported software. Those who "Speculated" that WordPerfect just wasn't getting enough traction and migrated to MS Word were rewarded with documents that are still viewable today.

The point that it's all speculation is valid. The point that speculation is a waste of time is not.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

wmhjr said:


> I would not agree with this in any way. Speculation is necessary when you're talking about substantial costs to purchase and adopt new technology - or choose between existing capabilities. Those who "Speculated" that Beta wasn't going to be able to compete with VHS were rewarded with recordings that could be played for years without going through hoops. Those who "Speculated" that OS/2 2.1 wasn't getting enough support and looked like it was going to be of questionable future were rewarded by not having to migrate Operating systems or dealing with difficulty in getting drivers and supported software. Those who "Speculated" that WordPerfect just wasn't getting enough traction and migrated to MS Word were rewarded with documents that are still viewable today.
> 
> The point that it's all speculation is valid. The point that speculation is a waste of time is not.


it's tv. unlike the software examples you referenced, this is hardware, and there are multiple replacement options across many platforms. you can cut the cord, or can rent while you save money and decide what to purchase. it's your time and energy, please feel free to waste it - i stand by my comment.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

It's TV. With an up front cost of at a minimum $750 (for a bolt + and lifetime). Since I have two Roamio Pros, and HD, and 4 minis, it's a lot more than that. So, I guess we're different. I don't consider speculation "wasted" given the overall price, which in my case would be well over $2000 to replace everything.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

wmhjr said:


> It's TV. With an up front cost of at a minimum $750 (for a bolt + and lifetime). Since I have two Roamio Pros, and HD, and 4 minis, it's a lot more than that. So, I guess we're different. I don't consider speculation "wasted" given the overall price, which in my case would be well over $2000 to replace everything.


your scenario involves immediate replacement costs at current rates, and does not take into account the service life of existing products, emerging technologies, the evolving retail market, and rental options currently available should the worst happen sooner than later. yes, unnecessary, and uninformed speculation.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Eventually, as the existing Bolt, Bolt+ and Roamio OTA retail models become outdated, we'll probably see TiVo completely exit from direct participation in the retail market, other than ongoing support for existing previously-sold units.


This is an interesting point for me as the Roamio line was effectively EOL and there was to be an OTA-only Bolt. Do they have a warehouse with thousands of these? Will there be additional production runs? At some point the guts may be harder to acquire or too costly to acquire...


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

NorthAlabama said:


> your scenario involves immediate replacement costs at current rates, and does not take into account the service life of existing products, emerging technologies, the evolving retail market, and rental options currently available should the worst happen sooner than later. yes, unnecessary, and uninformed speculation.


No, my scenario involves having discussions with people that are either considering purchase, or who have hardware that is end of life requiring new purchase. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree. IMHO I'm an informed consumer staying abreast of what's going on and thinking about trends, as opposed to just waiting until the last minute in the event of an issue, or not being able to compare new products coming to market.

So, again - in YOUR opinion, unnecessary. As to uninformed, well that's just plain BS.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> I am not going to repost NashGuy's post but I agree and would like to add that things change and we don't know what a future FCC or Congress will do. While it seems very unlikely today that satellite companies, cable companies using IPTV tech, or OTT cable replacement services using IPTV will be required to support third party STBs/DVRs like QAM cable providers have to today (meaning not just provide an app for platforms they want to, but follow a standard and allow any hardware company to access and control the service) it is not an impossibility.


Yes, that's true. Things change and who knows what will unfold. That said, I think it's unlikely that we'll see a government-mandated CableCARD successor standard for traditional MVPDs in the next few years. For one thing, I just don't think many consumers care. Sure, there's a dwindling band of TiVo die-hards who do, but I really don't think that many pay TV subscribers care about using a retail DVR they own. The other reason I'm doubtful is simply because the TV industry seems to be changing so quickly as video delivery shifts to online and on-demand. The whole industry really seems like a moving target right now. Disney, with ESPN and their Disney-branded content, was arguably the biggest lynchpin holding the traditional MVPD bundle together and now they've announced that they're embracing direct-to-consumer OTT. Here's an interesting article about where things are going, and how quickly:
TV is moving to the internet faster than you probably think

Perhaps, once things shake out, we'll see some new standard that forces online video distributors/apps (and OTA TV too, if it survives) to interoperate with various hardware platforms that integrate them into coherent UIs for consumers. I suspect that TiVo could play a behind-the-scenes role there, in terms of IP and metadata, but that the platforms themselves would likely be designed and powered by the tech giants that already have major footholds: Google, Amazon, Apple and Roku. (Hey, maybe we'll eventually see Roku and TiVo merge? RoVo? That could make sense.)



atmuscarella said:


> Also if TiVo builds the hardware or supports third party hardware like Roku is doing with some TV manufactures it really is of no concern or difference to me, it will still be a TiVo powered DVR and in my mind likely be what I use to record whatever is being broadcast via OTA (which I hope is via ATSC 3.0 and UHD sometime soon)


I agree, assuming that the hardware fully uses the regular TiVo UI (not some bastardized version of it) and that the hardware itself isn't underpowered. Did you happen to see this article back in Feb. from Zatz about the possible Philips DVR?
TiVo Heads Back To The Future (with new hardware partners)


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

davezatz said:


> This is an interesting point for me as the Roamio line was effectively EOL and there was to be an OTA-only Bolt. Do they have a warehouse with thousands of these? Will there be additional production runs? At some point the guts may be harder to acquire or too costly to acquire...


One has to wonder as the guts of a Roamio OTA are 2013 or earlier hardware, will there come a time when just leaving the cable card reader out of the Bolt will be cheaper to make. Then of course the guts of the Bolt are from 2015 or earlier so how long before those parts are to costly to make? When it comes to ATSC 3.0 there is no reason the Bolt couldn't work with a network attached ATSC 3.0 tuner with just a software update. But I see little reason for TiVo to provide that solution. If they are still in the consumer business at time a ATSC 3.0 DVR is needed it would be more profitable to force us to buy new DVRs and would be a good time for a new OTA only DVR.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Really, this gets to a comment I made on the other thread earlier. Given the financials of the retail business to the larger Tivo at present, and the future focus of the new company which has clearly stated a lack of interest in retail, there are a couple things to consider. Were I Tivo, I just might begin to halt production right now, and scale back deployment of any new hardware. Consider that once you purchase an OTA with lifetime, Tivo gets an upfront payment of $400 to cover hardware, licensing, and future service costs. No future revenue. They might want to create a sunset date and begin incrementally shutting down services to reduce cost. People don't understand the extent of those service costs. I sure don't know what they are specifically for Tivo, but I sure do know what managing and maintaining global technology service delivery costs. It ain't cheap.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The lack of a CableCARD successor is what's going to kill the retail TiVo, not Margret leaving. We were screwed as soon as the last FCC chairman folded and accepted "apps" as a viable replacement. And after the election and subsequent regime change that was cemented in stone. 

In the next 5-10 years cable companies will migrate to IPTV, CableCARDs will go away and we'll be left with no option but to use the MSO supplied DVR or switch to an alternative OTT service like PSVue, etc... TiVo's retail fate is sealed. They may find a footing in the MSO DVR space, but probably not with the big 3 MSOs, so most of us will not be using TiVo when this transition finally happens.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

davezatz said:


> This is an interesting point for me as the Roamio line was effectively EOL and there was to be an OTA-only Bolt. Do they have a warehouse with thousands of these? Will there be additional production runs? At some point the guts may be harder to acquire or too costly to acquire...


Yeah, I was wondering that same thing after I posted that. My guess: they'll sell through whatever existing inventory has been manufactured. At that point, _maybe_ TiVo decides to do another production run, assuming there's still sufficient demand for the product and the cost to manufacture those additional units is low enough to allow a satisfactory profit margin. Same suppliers, same parts, same factory, same marketing materials and channels, easy-peasy. If that's the case, then maybe.

What I don't see happening is TiVo deciding to design and manufacture a new or updated model. If the time comes for that, that's when TiVo tries to get one or more outside partners to build their own box and install TiVo OS on it.


----------



## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

wmhjr said:


> Really, this gets to a comment I made on the other thread earlier. Given the financials of the retail business to the larger Tivo at present, and the future focus of the new company which has clearly stated a lack of interest in retail, there are a couple things to consider. Were I Tivo, I just might begin to halt production right now, and scale back deployment of any new hardware. Consider that once you purchase an OTA with lifetime, Tivo gets an upfront payment of $400 to cover hardware, licensing, and future service costs. No future revenue. They might want to create a sunset date and begin incrementally shutting down services to reduce cost. People don't understand the extent of those service costs. I sure don't know what they are specifically for Tivo, but I sure do know what managing and maintaining global technology service delivery costs. It ain't cheap.


Well, thank god you are not TiVo.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

The point is that rational, business-focused people are likely thinking the same way, and so it would be foolish for anyone here to be surprised if TiVo does make a decision along those lines.

This message may have been entered via voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

UCLABB said:


> Well, thank god you are not TiVo.


I know - but those are the cards on the table right now. It's impossible to say for sure, but I'm not sure the situation would be identical had I or many others had influence when decisions being made years ago were effected that have great impact on the current situation. Dan203 is also correct in that even though I strongly believe Tivo went hard down the wrong path five or so years ago (when there was still an opportunity to adapt to what was coming) the very likely loss of CableCard or any reasonable replacement seals the deal - just being a matter of time.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

wmhjr said:


> So, again - in YOUR opinion, unnecessary. As to uninformed, well that's just plain BS.


as is this _your_ opinion, which means less and less with each of your subsequent replies - your agreeing to disagree certainly involves new levels.

your fear is your equipment will cease to function in the near future? your friends with eol equipment will pay current retail prices, and not receive a full return on their investment? how, please explain, will needless speculation into the unknown help either of these scenarios?


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Yes, that's true. Things change and who knows what will unfold. That said, I think it's unlikely that we'll see a government-mandated CableCARD successor standard for traditional MVPDs in the next few years.


I agree not very likely, but then I would have said a US President talking about nuking NK was not even a possibility - so now I have to concluded all most anything is possible.



NashGuy said:


> For one thing, I just don't think many consumers care. Sure, there's a dwindling band of TiVo die-hards who do, but I really don't think that many pay TV subscribers care about using a retail DVR they own. The other reason I'm doubtful is simply because the TV industry seems to be changing so quickly as video delivery shifts to online and on-demand. The whole industry really seems like a moving target right now. Disney, with ESPN and their Disney-branded content, was arguably the biggest lynchpin holding the traditional MVPD bundle together and now they've announced that they're embracing direct-to-consumer OTT. Here's an interesting article about where things are going, and how quickly:
> TV is moving to the internet faster than you probably think


Ya things are changing fast, but when you live in a cable free zone with only DSL Internet you tend to not look at streaming as a whole home/family solution. Maybe 5G will change that.



NashGuy said:


> Perhaps, once things shake out, we'll see some new standard that forces online video distributors/apps (and OTA TV too, if it survives) to interoperate with various hardware platforms that integrate them into coherent UIs for consumers. I suspect that TiVo could play a behind-the-scenes role there, in terms of IP and metadata, but that the platforms themselves would likely be designed and powered by the tech giants that already have major footholds: Google, Amazon, Apple and Roku. (Hey, maybe we'll eventually see Roku and TiVo merge? RoVo? That could make sense.)


Ya I think it is going to get messy. I do see issues for Roku, I think they are the most vulnerable (and I have a Roku Premiere+) all the other platforms, all the others tie back to huge companies and wireless platforms. If TiVo were going to stay in the hardware business merging with Roku would be a very good move if they could find away to merge the platforms without loosing any streaming services that currently build apps for the Roku platform.



NashGuy said:


> I agree, assuming that the hardware fully uses the regular TiVo UI (not some bastardized version of it) and that the hardware itself isn't underpowered. Did you happen to see this article back in Feb. from Zatz about the possible Philips DVR?
> TiVo Heads Back To The Future (with new hardware partners)


Yes thought it was a little short on details but did not surprise me or worry me. Even if it ends up being a dual tuner, if the price comes in below a Roamio OTA I think it will be a good add on for the market.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

NorthAlabama said:


> as is this _your_ opinion, which means less and less with each of your subsequent replies) - your agreeing to disagree certainly involves new levels.
> 
> your fear is your equipment will cease to function in the near future? your friends with eol equipment will pay current retail prices, and not receive a full return on their investment? how, please explain, will needless speculation into the unknown help either of these scenarios?


Um, nope. You're wrong there. To me, not thinking about the landscape is the definition of stupid. I'm not "afraid" my equipment will cease to function in the near future (for other than hardware failure or the intermittent Tivo service outages). I don't have confidence that Tivo retail systems will still be operating in 2 years though. And I do, however, talk with and spend time with other people, and since I've had DVRs in some form or another for about 20 years now, including a long time with Tivo, I get asked questions all the time. But since you think any such speculation is worthless, I don't know why you're even commenting here.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> Yes thought it was a little short on details but did not surprise me or worry me. Even if it ends up being a dual tuner, if the price comes in below a Roamio OTA I think it will be a good add on for the market.


Dual-tuner in an OTA DVR is fine by me. The part of the article that I found surprising and slightly worrisome is this:

_The interface, as pictured in the booth, looks nothing like the current or upcoming TiVo UI. It's not clear to me if the Roku-esque presentation is merely a placeholder, if TiVo is creating something new for partners, or if Philips is merely relying on TiVo-tech underpinnings and the Rovi guide._


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

wmhjr said:


> Um, nope. You're wrong there. To me, not thinking about the landscape is the definition of stupid. I'm not "afraid" my equipment will cease to function in the near future (for other than hardware failure or the intermittent Tivo service outages). I don't have confidence that Tivo retail systems will still be operating in 2 years though. And I do, however, talk with and spend time with other people, and since I've had DVRs in some form or another for about 20 years now, including a long time with Tivo, I get asked questions all the time. But since you think any such speculation is worthless, I don't know why you're even commenting here.


again, in _your_ opinion. (did i just slip into an episode of the good wife?)

you've yet to explain how your speculation will work to resolve any of your fears, or answer anyone else's questions (since it won't?). as long as you keep informed of the current technology options that are available, you and you're friends are good to go when the time for change is here. speculation on the future is sometimes fun and interesting, but doesn't merit one's head being on fire, or address your concerns.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

NorthAlabama said:


> again, in _your_ opinion. (did i just slip into an episode of the good wife?)
> 
> you've yet to explain how your speculation will work to resolve any of your fears, or answer anyone else's questions (since it won't?). as long as you keep informed of the current technology options that are available, you and you're friends are good to go when the time for change is here. speculation on the future is sometimes fun and interesting, but doesn't merit one's head being on fire, or address your concerns.


So again - you're pretty firmly incorrect on all counts. My head is certainly not on fire. The staffing changes are certainly not what generated my outlook - they simply reinforced it. And as opposed to some others, I'm kind of in favor of not being an A-hole to my friends or relatives, and failing to acknowledge to them that there just might be a pretty limited lifespan of a product. Maybe I'm just more engaged than you are. Maybe I'm just more inquisitive than you are. It's all based on opinions - TV show not withstanding. I'm sure there are a lot of things I prefer that you don't - and most certainly the opposite holds true.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

wmhjr said:


> So again - you're pretty firmly incorrect on all counts. My head is certainly not on fire. The staffing changes are certainly not what generated my outlook - they simply reinforced it. And as opposed to some others, I'm kind of in favor of not being an A-hole to my friends or relatives, and failing to acknowledge to them that there just might be a pretty limited lifespan of a product. Maybe I'm just more engaged than you are. Maybe I'm just more inquisitive than you are. It's all based on opinions - TV show not withstanding. I'm sure there are a lot of things I prefer that you don't - and most certainly the opposite holds true.


maybe you're just being a...


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

NorthAlabama said:


> maybe your just being a...


You do have a mirror, right...


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

wmhjr said:


> You do have a mirror, right...


yes, i do, and it says my tivo, and the rest of existing tivo retail equipment, will be operational for years to come. and if it's wrong? if the time arrives, i'll say good-bye to tivo, then switch to the best value option that has the features i'm looking for. i can almost guarantee i'll still be able to watch tv, regardless (and so will everyone else).


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

NorthAlabama said:


> yes, i do, and it says my tivo, and the rest of existing tivo retail equipment, will be operational for years to come. and if it's wrong? if the time arrives, i'll say good-bye to tivo, then switch to the best value option that has the features i'm looking for. i can almost guarantee i'll still be able to watch tv, regardless (and so will everyone else).


Good for you. I'm glad that you'll sleep well tonight. Have fun.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The chance of TiVo just cutting off existing units is slim to none. Especially now that they are owned by the same company that provides the data. Their biggest expense is now in house. It's much more likely that your TiVo will quit working because your cable company drops support for CableCARD. And if you have one of the units that supports OTA it will still function.


----------



## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> The chance of TiVo just cutting off existing units is slim to none. Especially now that they are owned by the same company that provides the data. Their biggest expense is now in house. It's much more likely that your TiVo will quit working because your cable company drops support for CableCARD. And if you have one of the units that supports OTA it will still function.


Doesn't TiVo have a ton of units that smaller MSOs use? Assuming those relationships continue, providing service to retail units would seem a relatively small marginal cost.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

UCLABB said:


> Doesn't TiVo have a ton of units that smaller MSOs use? Assuming those relationships continue, providing service to retail units would seem a relatively small marginal cost.


Hell, last time I checked, ReplayTV units still get data and that company went bankrupt like 15 years ago. Same with Windows Media Center. MS still provides data for them even though MCE isn't even in Windows 10.

Look at how much pushback TiVo got for discontinuing data to lifetime S1 units that haven't been sold in what 16 years. No way they're just going to suddenly cut off all existing retail units. At the very least we're a test bed they can use to beta software before they push it out to the more important MSO boxes.


----------



## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Hell, last time I checked, ReplayTV units still get data


I don't think they get data any more. At least mine don't.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

From what I gather over at AVS Forum, it appears that, at least as of last month, Arris was still supplying guide data to Moxie HD DVRs still in use. Arris stopped selling that product back in Feb. 2012. Apparently all retail Moxies came with lifetime guide data service rolled into the up-front purchase price.

Doesn't mean TiVo would do the same thing necessarily, should they discontinue selling retail units, but I'd definitely bet they would at least so long as they continue to own the guide data and are streaming it out to MSO partner units (and quite possibly even if that weren't the case, as in Arris's situation).


----------



## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

dianebrat said:


> While I'm sad to see her go, you've made a completely illogical leap to it being the "end of the consumer Tivo" unless you and she have been privately discussing that scenario over drinks.


Not illogical as Rovi did not have any type of retail consumer product anymore. The one they had which was TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen) was shutdown in March of 2013 and all the retail devices that used that UI and guide data stopped functioning. This is how I and some other TVGOS users ended up with TiVo as it was the last retail device that used a CableCard and could record cable TV.
Rovi was actually made up of two companies, Gemstar TV Guide International and Macrovision. Gemstar developed UI's with one for retail, TVGOS and the others for MSOs, I Guide and Passport Echo and then they supplied those guides with their own massive TV Guide data base. Macrovision basically did copy protection for VHS tapes. When Macrovision bought Gemstar they changed the name to Rovi and they mainly focused on what Gemstar was doing as most of Macrovision's business dried up. Two of the current TiVo (Rovi) board members were from Gemstar TV Guide.
With Rovi buying TiVo they basically wanted the UI and then license the rights to use the TiVo UI to MSOs and any retail device manufacturer just like Gemstar did. So in order for any consumer to get a TiVo powered UI on a device, then some type of consumer electronics company will have to build a device and license to use the TiVo UI. An example would be Sony since they did have a consumer DVR device back in 2005 called the Sony DHG which used the TVGOS UI and TV Guide data.

There will come a point in the not to distant future when Rovi will stop updating the direct to retail TiVo's and when those devices fail that will be the end of the line for us retail users unless some other company has retail offering the runs the TiVo UI. If not then the only way will be through an MSO if you are fortunate that the system in your area is using the TiVo UI.
Right now TiVo support has been off shored and is not very helpful. They mainly suggest the basic like rebooting or rerunning guided setup. If that did work a lot of users here were increasingly relying on Margret for support but with her leaving that does not bode well for those with major issues. Eventually Rovi will end support for the retail units as the number of units drop off and then once the number of units connecting to the service gets low enough then the plug will be pulled on those devices.
This is basically what happened to the TVGOS retail devices. Rovi pulled the plug as most of the units that had the UI embedded were CableCard devices and those numbers were really low.

If TiVo (Rovi) wanted to continue with the direct to consumer business then Margret would have stayed since she was mainly involved with designing these devices. Since Rovi has made statements that they really are not interested in that business they have no need for Margret or other people involved with those activities.
One thing that must be mentioned for those that only have experience with TiVo is if a retail company does develop a DVR type box you will call their support for any problem with the box including the TiVo UI. This is how Gemstar Rovi did it. If you had a problem with TVGOS and you owned the Sony DHG you will call Sony and Sony will contact Rovi. The consumer never had any direct contact with Rovi at all.
I suspect that this is the way TiVo (Rovi) will do this if there is any retail device manufacturers that decided to enter this business and use the TiVo UI and guide data. And if there is none at all then the only way to get a TiVo powered device will be through an MSO who also will have to license the TiVo UI.


----------



## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

NashGuy said:


> From what I gather over at AVS Forum, it appears that, at least as of last month, Arris was still supplying guide data to Moxie HD DVRs still in use. Arris stopped selling that product back in Feb. 2012. Apparently all retail Moxies came with lifetime guide data service rolled into the up-front purchase price.
> 
> Doesn't mean TiVo would do the same thing necessarily, should they discontinue selling retail units, but I'd definitely bet they would at least so long as they continue to own the guide data and are streaming it out to MSO partner units (and quite possibly even if that weren't the case, as in Arris's situation).


This is no longer correct as Arris sold the Moxi UI to Espial in June of 2016. Right now Espial is in financial trouble so don't expect this to last much longer if they fail. Espial bought way to many assets that have little to no income, including Moxi UI, so they are drowning in debt with very little income.
Espial Announces Agreement to Acquire Whole Home Solution Platform from ARRIS - Espial
Espial : Concerned Shareholder of Espial Group Inc. Urges Shareholders to Vote FOR a Refreshed Board of Directors to Improve Performance | 4-Traders


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Jed1 said:


> This is no longer correct as Arris sold the Moxi UI to Espial in June of 2016. Right now Espial is in financial trouble so don't expect this to last much longer if they fail. Espial bought way to many assets that have little to no income, including Moxi UI, so they are drowning in debt with very little income.
> Espial Announces Agreement to Acquire Whole Home Solution Platform from ARRIS - Espial
> Espial : Concerned Shareholder of Espial Group Inc. Urges Shareholders to Vote FOR a Refreshed Board of Directors to Improve Performance | 4-Traders


Ah. I stand corrected in the identity of the current owner/supplier of the Moxi DVR service, but not in the fact that said service is continuing to be delivered to the few Moxie DVRs still in use, over five years after the prior owner (Arris) ceased selling them.

My point of bringing up that example is that there's no reason to necessarily think that TiVo would immediately cease supporting "lifetime" service to retail DVRs in the field at the point in time when they stop selling new ones. In fact, given that the same online service (guide data/search) is necessary to support a whole bunch of TiVo DVRs owned by MSO partners which TiVo is contractually bound to continue servicing, I'd say the outlook for retail TiVo owners is WAY better than it was for Moxie DVR owners. The incremental costs of continuing to provide service to retail owners (especially if they degrade technical support to low-cost offshore call centers) is pretty low.

I'm not saying that our retail Bolts, Roamios, Premieres, etc. will still be functional in 2029. I'm just saying that, IMO, the odds are very good that a TiVo purchased with lifetime service today will still be functional five years from now (assuming that you're not trying to use it with a cable provider that has dropped CableCARD support, which almost assuredly will happen to some TiVo owners in the next few years).


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Given the financials of the retail business to the larger Tivo at present, and the future focus of the new company which has clearly stated a lack of interest in retail,


The "stated" lack of interest was retail hardware which really was TiVo's original plan (and why our first TiVo in 2000 was a Sony).

The Rovi/TiVo CFO's (Peter Halt) statement last year was to not look for them to exit the consumer space.

"There are several box providers out there who have direct-to-retail. We'll be looking at the possibilities of working with them, having them control the box. And while that would be a partnership and we wouldn't get all the sales as a result, we think that's probably a better way to approach the consumer space. *But don't look for us to exit the consumer space."*

Scott


----------



## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

This was a picture that Margret posted to her Twitter page when they launched the Bolt in October of 2015. A lot has changed in that two year period.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQqftO4UcAA3sX2.jpg:thumb


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> The lack of a CableCARD successor is what's going to kill the retail TiVo, not Margret leaving. We were screwed as soon as the last FCC chairman folded and accepted "apps" as a viable replacement. And after the election and subsequent regime change that was cemented in stone.
> 
> In the next 5-10 years cable companies will migrate to IPTV, CableCARDs will go away and we'll be left with no option but to use the MSO supplied DVR or switch to an alternative OTT service like PSVue, etc... TiVo's retail fate is sealed. They may find a footing in the MSO DVR space, but probably not with the big 3 MSOs, so most of us will not be using TiVo when this transition finally happens.


I wouldn't argue with a bit of what you say here, except to add that, 10 years from now the term "DVR" may seem a bit anachronistic. It's certainly possible, maybe even likely, that some pay TV providers (especially Dish and DirecTV satellite) will still offer DVR boxes that viewers use to "harvest" and store recordings gleaned from linear channels. But my guess is that a big majority of the American public who pays for video entertainment in 2027 won't be setting up recordings and perhaps won't even have all that many linear channels. We'll just watch stuff on-demand, unless it's happening live. (Perhaps the debut of new episodes of popular series will still be "broadcast" live too since a multicast stream is more network-efficient than a whole bunch of unicast on-demand streams. Local network affiliates -- if they still exist -- will also continue to air as live linear channels because, well, they sort of have to.)

Imagine how the new Hulu with Live TV service works. Except there's no need for cloud DVR because everything you might want to record is already available on-demand (with forced ads, unless you pay extra to avoid them, but at least they're targeted ads and there are fewer of them than on traditional linear TV). And there are a lot fewer choices for "live TV" at any given moment because, well, that category is pretty much made up of stuff that's actually happening live right then -- sports, news, etc.


----------



## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

HerronScott said:


> The "stated" lack of interest was retail hardware which really was TiVo's original plan (and why our first TiVo in 2000 was a Sony).
> 
> The Rovi/TiVo CFO's (Peter Halt) statement last year was to not look for them to exit the consumer space.
> 
> ...


This is how Gemstar (Rovi) ran their business when it came to retail but unfortunately the products that they embedded their UI in did not sell very well and Rovi had to pull the plug on the whole operation in March of 2013. This is how I ended up with TiVo which is now been bought by Rovi. So if there is a retail device that will use the UI but they will also have the same problem TiVo now has, who can afford such a device. The Sony DHG sold for around a $1000 in 2005. It did not sell and had to be sold at a steep discount so Sony only made it one year and gave up.

Right now I have two Kuros that have TVGOS UI embedded in them and it still works but they have no way to get data as that part of the chain was shutdown. Same goes for the Sony DHG DVR, still works but no guide data. And with out the data you can not even get a clock set and there is no way to set it manually so it is even difficult to use it to do a basic recording. TiVos also need the data to get a clock set.
That data base is the same one that feeds the MSO I Guides and PassPort Echo guides and also our TiVo's. So the premise that is floating around here that as long as they provide the data to MSOs does not mean they have to provide it to us.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> From what I gather over at AVS Forum, it appears that, at least as of last month, Arris was still supplying guide data to Moxie HD DVRs still in use. Arris stopped selling that product back in Feb. 2012. Apparently all retail Moxies came with lifetime guide data service rolled into the up-front purchase price.
> 
> Doesn't mean TiVo would do the same thing necessarily, should they discontinue selling retail units, but I'd definitely bet they would at least so long as they continue to own the guide data and are streaming it out to MSO partner units (and quite possibly even if that weren't the case, as in Arris's situation).


I can confirm retail Moxi's were still working with guide data as of last week when I pulled one from my moms house because Comcast moved to mpeg4 which Moxi does not support.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

dianebrat said:


> While I'm sad to see her go, you've made a completely illogical leap to it being the "end of the consumer Tivo" unless you and she have been privately discussing that scenario over drinks.


^ +1 (for the most part, apart from wondering what, if anything, will happen in the future and what this development means).


wmhjr said:


> Disagree. Her departure, no real visibility of a "similar role" being filled by somebody else, and Rovi/Tivo public statements about the future of the retail - it's not at all an "illogical leap". It's an opinion based on data - not a fact, but not in any possible definition an "illogical leap".


Absent having an inside track, a great deal of rank (although not pure or illogical, as you note) speculation on what this means. And for all we know, a replacement starts on Monday. (LOL, now _that's_ pure speculation.  )


atmuscarella said:


> Unfortunately I have to agree with you. There is no way to look at her departure as a positive for TiVo consumer products and it certainly is easy, even from my limited knowledge of TiVo's internal workings, to see it as a negative. How big a negative depends on if someone else ends up filling a similar role or not. When I first started with this forum there were several other very active TiVo employees who posted regular here that when they left people were also fairly upset. The bigger problem in my mind is that at this point we still appear to need a direct contact with someone as high up as she was to get some(many?) individual issues addressed.


Yes, it's sad, and we all can speculate on what it means. A negative for right now, in many regards (as often will be the case with a staffing departure), and we'll have to see what the future brings and if this is a portent.


NorthAlabama said:


> speculation, even when information based, is still speculation, and a waste of time and energy until an official announcement is made (or leaked) - who knows what new options will be available for consumers by then, when or if it even impacts tivo retail...


Some people simply enjoy speculation as a sport.  And sometimes assuming and/or pretending that it is much more.


wmhjr said:


> I would not agree with this in any way. Speculation is necessary when you're talking about substantial costs to purchase and adopt new technology - or choose between existing capabilities. Those who "Speculated" that Beta wasn't going to be able to compete with VHS were rewarded with recordings that could be played for years without going through hoops. Those who "Speculated" that OS/2 2.1 wasn't getting enough support and looked like it was going to be of questionable future were rewarded by not having to migrate Operating systems or dealing with difficulty in getting drivers and supported software. Those who "Speculated" that WordPerfect just wasn't getting enough traction and migrated to MS Word were rewarded with documents that are still viewable today.
> 
> The point that it's all speculation is valid. The point that speculation is a waste of time is not.


It all depends on the individual. And some find it just to be too much of a time-suck, especially when an inordinate amount of time and energy is placed on it.


Dan203 said:


> The lack of a CableCARD successor is what's going to kill the retail TiVo, not Margret leaving.


^ +1. With the caveat that, one just never knows what the future will bring. For example, I hear that there's this new dude in Washington D.C. right now . . . .


Jed1 said:


> If TiVo (Rovi) wanted to continue with the direct to consumer business then Margret would have stayed since she was mainly involved with designing these devices.


Valid speculation (and as to the results of it, all with some logic). As speculation.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> That data base is the same one that feeds the MSO I Guides and PassPort Echo guides and also our TiVo's. So the premise that is floating around here that as long as they provide the data to MSOs does not mean they have to provide it to us.


Actually the premise is that as long as they provide guide data to the over 5 million MSO TiVos that are using the same infrastructure that they'll continue to provide to the much smaller retail TiVo's. And that 5 million number was from the last time that they actually reported the number back in July 2015.

Scott


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> .....
> Some people simply enjoy speculation as a sport.  And sometimes assuming and/or pretending that it is much more.
> ..........


And they call it network "news" -- and it sells -- sad.


----------



## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Well Margret updated her web page and her tenor at TiVo is now past history. She must have changed it this evening as it was still showing her working for TiVo earlier in the day. Truly an end of an era and a real sad day for TiVo owners.
Margret Schmidt Chief Design Officer


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> I wouldn't argue with a bit of what you say here, except to add that, 10 years from now the term "DVR" may seem a bit anachronistic. It's certainly possible, maybe even likely, that some pay TV providers (especially Dish and DirecTV satellite) will still offer DVR boxes that viewers use to "harvest" and store recordings gleaned from linear channels. But my guess is that a big majority of the American public who pays for video entertainment in 2027 won't be setting up recordings and perhaps won't even have all that many linear channels. We'll just watch stuff on-demand, unless it's happening live. (Perhaps the debut of new episodes of popular series will still be "broadcast" live too since a multicast stream is more network-efficient than a whole bunch of unicast on-demand streams. Local network affiliates -- if they still exist -- will also continue to air as live linear channels because, well, they sort of have to.)
> 
> Imagine how the new Hulu with Live TV service works. Except there's no need for cloud DVR because everything you might want to record is already available on-demand (with forced ads, unless you pay extra to avoid them, but at least they're targeted ads and there are fewer of them than on traditional linear TV). And there are a lot fewer choices for "live TV" at any given moment because, well, that category is pretty much made up of stuff that's actually happening live right then -- sports, news, etc.


While this could be the case it may not be quite as utopian as you make it sound. The current tread is for every content provider to have their own app, showing only their own content, and costing $6/mo with forced commercials. That's hardly an ideal replacement for DVRs.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> The chance of TiVo just cutting off existing units is slim to none. Especially now that they are owned by the same company that provides the data. Their biggest expense is now in house. It's much more likely that your TiVo will quit working because your cable company drops support for CableCARD. And if you have one of the units that supports OTA it will still function.


This is simply not true.

First of all, I'm not at all suggesting that they'll just cut off service to existing units right now. Never did suggest that. Not once. As I said, what is more likely is that they'll choose a sunset date - maybe they already have. We don't know.

Beyond that, people just comparing the Tivo service to other stuff like Moxi, etc are ignoring some basic facts. We're not just talking about guide data. It's not just "internal cost". That is purely a false statement beyond any possible debate. The Tivo UI depends on real-time integration with Tivo hosted services for actual function - not just guide data. Remember the BSCs folks? I know somebody on this site in the past week or so tried to deny such integration but that attempt was ridiculous. Fact is, the UI DOES in fact have real-time integration - to exactly what extent, we truly don't know. This is a fundamental flaw in their architecture that was implemented a couple years ago. Whether the primary reason was to gain click data or something else, it created a dependency on Tivo hosted systems which is so different from just "getting internal guide data" that it's ridiculous to even try and compare it.

If, and that word is pretty meaningless because the ship has already sailed, Tivo had NOT done this, and ONLY needed to update guide data, then sure - there would be little external cost (though there absolutely would be some) in continuing service. But that is not the case. Period. In order to sustain support of Roamios, Bolts and Minis in any sort of reliable manner, Tivo must support redundant externally facing datacenters (whether their own or a managed service), manage and maintain all the "hosted services", including an Operations Development and QA function to deal with all the required patching, etc (including testing their own proprietary systems for those necessary updates), manage all the ITIL based functions, support redundant and fast pipes, etc. None of this is required to any even remotely similar extent if it were just guide data.

This is why the comparison of Tivo continuing to provide Guide data because Moxi or WM did are baseless.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> This is why the comparison of Tivo continuing to provide Guide data because Moxi or WM did are baseless.


The question is under what circumstances can a business which sold lifetime service terminate service. The moxi example suggests wanting to exit the market segment isn't sufficient. The fact that it might take more resources for rovi to continue supporting tivo customers then it cost moxi is irrelevant.

I subscribe to FiOS. I suspect the change to IPTV will cause me to abandon TiVo before rovi attempted to abandon TiVo.
TiVo is still selling LS. It would be hard to justify terminating service for at least 5 years


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Tivo has always had a statement in their terms of service indicating the right to change, modify, and withdraw features and service at any time without notice.

However, remember that even under the most stringent definition, the courts have never ever forced a company to retain service in perpetuity - "Lifetime" is not a legal definition, and typically the courts defer to "End of useful life" or similar definitions. 

That being said, as I mentioned I don't see Tivo just immediately doing this. My belief is that it's very likely they've already put a stake in the ground in terms of a future sunset date. Not that it would disappear overnight.

Keep in mind another possibility, however. That is, that Tivo/Rovi spin off their retail business as a completely separate company, along with the corresponding liability. At that point, they are further protected by bankruptcy law in terms of ceasing retail service.

Clearly we don't know. The moxi example is no more relevant than Garmin eliminating support of standalone GPS models that had "lifetime map updates" - which in fact has happened a number of times. My caution is simply that comparing Tivo to Moxi is a very very bad comparison. Tivo has to provide real time integration in order for the units to function correctly in addition to getting guide data. Moxi only needs batch processing of guide data. They are more different than the comparison of a aircraft to a bicycle.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> First of all, I'm not at all suggesting that they'll just cut off service to existing units right now. Never did suggest that. Not once. As I said, what is more likely is that they'll choose a sunset date - maybe they already have. We don't know.





wmhjr said:


> In order to sustain support of Roamios, Bolts and Minis in any sort of reliable manner, Tivo must support redundant externally facing datacenters (whether their own or a managed service), manage and maintain all the "hosted services", including an Operations Development and QA function to deal with all the required patching, etc (including testing their own proprietary systems for those necessary updates), manage all the ITIL based functions, support redundant and fast pipes, etc. None of this is required to any even remotely similar extent if it were just guide data


And what about the 5 million+ MSO TiVo's that also depend on this infrastructure for their operation? There is little incremental cost required to also support the retail TiVo's.

Scott


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

HerronScott said:


> And what about the 5 million+ MSO TiVo's that also depend on this infrastructure for their operation? There is little incremental cost required to also support the retail TiVo's.
> 
> Scott


Scott, I've been thinking about that, and am not convinced it's the same architecture/infrastructure for a variety of reasons. As a matter of fact, I've gotten to the point that it seems to me that it is not the same.

It is a very good point - and a very big question. There were enough reasons for me to believe it wasn't the same though.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> This is simply not true.
> 
> First of all, I'm not at all suggesting that they'll just cut off service to existing units right now. Never did suggest that. Not once. As I said, what is more likely is that they'll choose a sunset date - maybe they already have. We don't know.
> 
> ...


The real time integration with there servers is also true of their MSO boxes. So unless they completely go out of business those servers will still be active. So I'm not sure why you'd think they would decide to sunset retail boxes.

If they really want to get rid of retail boxes a better strategy for them would be to simply stop selling new hardware and stop accepting new monthly subscriptions. That would basically purge all but lifetime units from the system. Those boxes wont last forever so at that point it's just a matter of waiting for them to die off.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> The real time integration with there servers is also true of their MSO boxes. So unless they completely go out of business those servers will still be active. So I'm not sure why you'd think they would decide to sunset retail boxes.
> 
> If they really want to get rid of retail boxes a better strategy for them would be to simply stop selling new hardware and stop accepting new monthly subscriptions. That would basically purge all but lifetime units from the system. Those boxes wont last forever so at that point it's just a matter of waiting for them to die off.


Dan, two things. Your second point first - which I agree with. I earlier stated that one likely scenario would be to stop selling new units FAST - and the only difference between your thought and mine would be that I'd establish a sunset date where service would be terminated.

For the first point, there are a number of reasons why I believe that the same hosted services are NOT used by both MSO and retail systems. Without question, versioning and software versions are different. So there are without a doubt a whole ton of reasons why they would want to streamline. There is significant cost for every single code branch that exists. Anybody who has spent serious time in the hosted software development and delivery business understands many of the myriad of costs.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan, one other point. And it's where we kind of throw a wrench into the logic. The "new Tivo" has shown (at least to many of us) a desire to gain max revenue with minimal investment (i.e., crappy quality of guide data in perpetuity, etc, and poor service). So one problem with stopping selling monthly subs and retaining only lifetime is that they lose the only actual revenue stream they have to try and offset costs. All the lifetime (or All-In) units are now a cost center with zero revenue. The only revenue whatsoever in the retail space is the sale of new units (with or without lifetime) and monthly. Unless they spin off retail, then it's likely share value takes a hit if they do this and I'm uncertain that they have the stomach for taking that hit. But I also don't think they have the stomach to keep funding retail. So, here we are.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Scott, I've been thinking about that, and am not convinced it's the same architecture/infrastructure for a variety of reasons. As a matter of fact, I've gotten to the point that it seems to me that it is not the same.
> 
> It is a very good point - and a very big question. There were enough reasons for me to believe it wasn't the same though.


Based on the posts here from users who have MSO units as well as the fact that you can set up an account with TiVo for those units, I'm pretty confident that they do use the same infrastructure. Also, the manuals for the MSO versions show the same service connection model. There really was no reason for them to reinvent the wheel to support MSO's in this area (and the whole point for small MSO's was that they didn't have to provide any infrastructure).

You mentioned code branches in your post to Dan but other than disabling some options and providing on-demand for some MSO's (which they do with Comcast on the retail side) I doubt there is a lot of difference in the code and it may actually be the same code base with the feature set dependent on the specific model that it's deployed on.

Scott


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Changing retail units, software update if necessary, so retail units use the same servers as mso units makes sense. Probably clutter up ui with more ads at the same time.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

HerronScott said:


> Based on the posts here from users who have MSO units as well as the fact that you can set up an account with TiVo for those units, I'm pretty confident that they do use the same infrastructure. Also, the manuals for the MSO versions show the same service connection model. There really was no reason for them to reinvent the wheel to support MSO's in this area (and the whole point for small MSO's was that they didn't have to provide any infrastructure).
> 
> You mentioned code branches in your post to Dan but other than disabling some options and providing on-demand for some MSO's (which they do with Comcast on the retail side) I doubt there is a lot of difference in the code and it may actually be the same code base with the feature set dependent on the specific model that it's deployed on.
> 
> Scott


We will have to agree to disagree about both of those statements. I would guess that the architecture is very similar, but that has zero relevance as to the code branches and versions. Based on the fact that I don't recall hearing MSO units having BSCs at the same time/frequency as retail, my guess is that they are in fact different. They may be hosted in the same datacenters but are different physical/logical instances at a minimum.

It takes very very little difference in code versions for their to be significant cost in overhead. Particularly when you think about full integration and regression testing. Anybody in the industry will tell you that it gets messy fast. I've been down this road a number of times and am very familiar with the impacts. That's why as an example, pure hosted services such as ServiceNow and SalesForce.com (just using them as examples) as a core principal attempt to minimize such impact.

But I do acknowledge that we really don't know - and frankly, this is the biggest question in my mind about what happens to retail going forward.


----------



## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> The Tivo UI depends on real-time integration with Tivo hosted services for actual function - not just guide data. Remember the BSCs folks? I know somebody on this site in the past week or so tried to deny such integration but that attempt was ridiculous. Fact is, the UI DOES in fact have real-time integration


The integration is not critical to basic function. The reason for getting the blue spinning circle is a design choice to not to check for dead network path. If you instead pull the network cord (ie NIC is disabled), the unit will function without the BSC. I just tested this and the unit functions quite well. Even commercial skip works. If they had to, it would be relatively little effort to disable the network port by software and only enable it for network connects to get data. This would be a brute force way to do it with little change to existing code. They could have a more elegant way of doing it.

This is on 20.7.1 on Roamio. Can't speak for other versions, but I doubt the other Roamios would be different.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

sfhub said:


> The integration is not critical to basic function. The reason for getting the blue spinning circle is a design choice to not to check for dead network path. If you instead pull the network cord (ie NIC is disabled), the unit will function without the BSC. I just tested this and the unit functions quite well. Even commercial skip works. If they had to, it would be relatively little effort to disable the network port by software and only enable it for network connects to get data. This would be a brute force way to do it with little change to existing code. They could have a more elegant way to do it.


Um, your test is actually a bit flawed.

During the BSCs, many of us (including me) did in fact pull our ethernet. Yet, I do not believe I was alone in the loss of some function. I know for an absolute fact that pulling the plug did not correct all the BSC issues for me.

I'm not certain either that we truly know any actual design reason (i.e., MRD) for why or why not the device is checking for a dead path. Unless that is, you have access to the MRD?


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> While this could be the case it may not be quite as utopian as you make it sound. The current tread is for every content provider to have their own app, showing only their own content, and costing $6/mo with forced commercials. That's hardly an ideal replacement for DVRs.


Was that a response to the post you actually quoted there or did you mean to quote a different post of mine?

At any rate, yes, there is a trend in the OTT space toward each content provider going direct-to-consumer with their own apps. Disney and ESPN are the latest to join that trend, or rather will join that trend, in the next couple of years. And, yes, if ads partially subsidize the cost, then they're forced, although one can typically pay extra to cut out the ads.

But that's the OTT space. There's always going to be a need for some kind of intermediary to package content from various providers into a convenient experience for the consumer. Right now, that intermediary is the MVPD, e.g. Comcast, AT&T, and the vMVPD, e.g. PS Vue, Sling TV. The continued migration of content owners toward individual OTT apps (e.g. Netflix, HBO Now, CBS All Access, Boomerang, etc.) will continue to disrupt the traditional MVPD business model. At the least, they'll respond by offering skinnier bundles, something that's already happening. But I can't see MVPDs going away because LOTS of people have no interest at all in juggling several different OTT apps, with separate UIs and separate billings, in order to get the content they want. And at a certain point, you'll end up paying more for all those apps combined than you would via a traditional MVPD bundle.

So, at least in the interim, what I see is the MVPD continuing to offer cable packages like they've always done, but with more flexible/skinnier bundles. And they'll continue working to integrate key OTT apps with exclusive/original content that can't be found on cable (e.g. Netflix) into the UI on the boxes they provide subs. Meanwhile, MVPDs will continue to shift emphasis from live and recorded (DVR'd) content to on-demand and will increasingly embrace targeted ads. In other words, MVPDs will generally look at least somewhat more like Hulu with Live TV does today.

But if one day OTT is truly going to sweep away the MVPD model and become the way we all watch pay TV, it will be because the various content app owners decide it's in their collective best interest to work with third parties to play the intermediary role so that OTT is as convenient an experience for consumers as MVPDs are now. Those intermediaries would be the owners of the various streaming platforms -- Apple, Amazon, Google, Roku. If all the major OTT apps will work with them to let their content and metadata flow out of their individual apps and into a well-designed unified UI, then perhaps the OTT model will ultimately replace the MVPD model. But only because, at that point, the streaming platform owners are essentially playing the role that MVPDs do now: bundling content from various sources into a convenient unified UX, with aggregated billing.


----------



## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Um, your test is actually a bit flawed.
> 
> During the BSCs, many of us (including me) did in fact pull our ethernet. Yet, I do not believe I was alone in the loss of some function. I know for an absolute fact that pulling the plug did not correct all the BSC issues for me.


Tell me what failed and I will test it using current software vs what you tested before.

It is unfair to say the test is flawed and not point out what is deficient, then continue using that to support your point.

You should at least point out what is flawed so it can be tested.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I think pretty spot on. (Meaning NashGuys comment in post 197)


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

sfhub said:


> Tell me what failed and I will test it using current software vs what you tested before.
> 
> It is unfair to say the test is flawed and not point out what is deficient, then continue using that to support your point.
> 
> You should at least point out what is flawed so it can be tested.


Well, as I recall there were a number of things. One was playing back recorded content simply by going to "My Shows" (or back then, "Now Playing") selection content, and then hitting play. There was also difficulty in editing a OnePass. Obviously, there was the fact that the minis became bricks.

I'm not comfortable with a test that just unplugs the ethernet as we don't know what logic exists to change behavior if zero network connection exists - which is a completely different use case than having a valid network connection, but no connection to Tivo services. That's the problem.

In my mind in order to actually execute the test, you'd have to port capture for a LONG time, and then somehow block traffic at your gateway for the ports only being used by Tivo services (and hope none of them were being hosted by somebody like Akamai), as well as hoping that none of it was on common ports/DNS based). I'd really have to think through what would make sense in order to fully test.

At the moment, lacking any comprehensive data to the contrary, I have no choice but to believe that there is in fact still integration. Obviously, no matter what the explanation, it was - and is - unacceptable and illustrates a design defect. Let's just say that actually running an accurate test would require a lot more than simply pulling an ethernet cable.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> If they really want to get rid of retail boxes a better strategy for them would be to simply stop selling new hardware and stop accepting new monthly subscriptions. That would basically purge all but lifetime units from the system. Those boxes wont last forever so at that point it's just a matter of waiting for them to die off.


The "safer" way to proceed, it seems to me; albeit, at a cost until the dying-off completes.


wmhjr said:


> Tivo has always had a statement in their terms of service indicating the right to change, modify, and withdraw features and service at any time without notice.
> 
> However, remember that even under the most stringent definition, the courts have never ever forced a company to retain service in perpetuity - "Lifetime" is not a legal definition, and typically the courts defer to "End of useful life" or similar definitions.
> 
> ...


And certainly, the "more dangerous" means by which to proceed, it seems to me, likely resulting in consumer lawsuits, variously asserting breach of contract (based on TiVo's own express definition and explanation of "lifetime") and/or unconscionability, fraud and otherwise, as repeatedly has been discussed elsewhere and any of which could be successful (or not--but all at a cost to TiVo regardless).


----------



## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Well, as I recall there were a number of things. One was playing back recorded content simply by going to "My Shows" (or back then, "Now Playing") selection content, and then hitting play.


That definitely works fine, as well as commercial skip, even after reboot.



wmhjr said:


> There was also difficulty in editing a OnePass. Obviously, there was the fact that the minis became bricks.


The OnePass would need to change back to Season Pass if TiVo wanted to go back to "Lite" mode. Minis wouldn't be bricks because presumably if TiVo wanted to go "Lite" mode, they have access to source and can be more surgical in disabling the real-time connections.



wmhjr said:


> I'm not comfortable with a test that just unplugs the ethernet as we don't know what logic exists to change behavior if zero network connection exists - which is a completely different use case than having a valid network connection, but no connection to Tivo services. That's the problem.


It is a quick a dirty way to figure out how integral the online connection is to functionality. If it functions without BSC, you know it can't be THAT tied to the real-time connections. If it doesn't function at all, then it doesn't really tell you if they could or couldn't untie it, but you have some idea it would be at a minimum more involved to make the change.

The question we should ask is NOT if there are real time connections CURRENTLY but how critical they are to functionality. Are they basically marketing/click tracking connections that are not critical, in the way that ads are not critical to your website viewing, where if you change the DNS to 127.0.0.1 for those servers, things continue to work or can the system just not work without the real-time connections without major redesign.

I think this would actually be a good test. Capture the network data for the real time connections and change your DNS server to map these to 127.0.0.1 and see how the system works. If it mostly works ok, then TiVo doesn't really require keeping a real-time server infrastructure around. They'll need to balance defending many complaints and bad press and possibly government fines for deceptive practices vs spending the money for an engineer to untie things. If the same servers do the guide data and the real-time connections then the test wouldn't be useful.

This would (if you find the system works mostly fine) give you an idea how much work it would be for TiVo to go Lite/minimum. Presumably TiVo has access to the source code and could just change the functions doing the real-time connection to return a failed error code same as a NIC down, but more surgical in nature. Given how much lawyers and PR damage control costs, the engineer would probably be cheaper.

We used to do this analysis for ReplayTV when we were worried about the systems getting shutdown. We were able to even duplicate many of the services ReplayTV was running for show sharing and provide our own servers. The guy who ran Poopli actually made show sharing way better than Replay's implementation.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Was that a response to the post you actually quoted there or did you mean to quote a different post of mine?


I quoted the wrong one


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> I quoted the wrong one


Ha, OK! I'm pretty sure I know which one you meant.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Well I thought I would do some testing so I pulled my LAN off the Internet (disconnected DLS line) and then did some testing with my Bolt:

No problem playing back some of a record show.
No problem streaming some of a show from my Roamio
No problem doing a manual recording and then deleting the partial record.
No problem creating, editing, & deleting various one passes
No problem pulling a show back off my computer via TiVo Desktop and then playing some of it it and deleting it.
Basically I had my LAN off line for about 20 minutes and did not see any issues. The Bolt has the 20.7.1 software and the Roamio has the 20.7.2 software.

I would also like to point out that there is a reason that TiVo does monitor these system like it does. The data has value add to that what ever revenue they generate via advertising and from the apps it becomes clear that saying modern TiVo's (series 4-6) with lifetime don't generate revenue is incorrect.

Also saying that TiVo's DVR business costs them money isn't exactly correct either, they have quarters where the DVR business was profitable. Also if they were to get out of the DVR sales business, it is an unknown if the existing user base would cost money or generate profit without any marketing or development costs (and minimum support, if any) - my pure 100% guess is it would be profitable for several years at least.

In the end worrying about TiVo pulling the plug on our DVRs and making them non-functional at this point in time is just a waist of time. We can make up all the sh** we want about that possibility - but it is still just making sh** up.

If someone really needs to stress themselves out about things they have ZERO control over - I can give you a long list of things that are much bigger deals than this and allot more likely to negatively impact people.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Well I thought I would do some testing so I pulled my LAN off the Internet (disconnected DLS line) and then did some testing with my Bolt:
> 
> No problem playing back some of a record show.
> No problem streaming some of a show from my Roamio
> ...


And so, the core TiVo functionality is there. Of course, at the same time, some things also are affected. For example, the TiVo Central top banner of suggestions depends on the Internet connection; mine will grey-out without a connection. Also, due to a programming glitch, it can be impossible to delete a show under one of the normal, main methods without a connection (been there and spoke to TiVo about it--apparently, this particular delete function code unnecessarily ties into the TiVo network connection code). And SkipMode disappears for me when my network/Internet connection is lost--you then realize how much you really like SkipMode!


> I would also like to point out that there is a reason that TiVo does monitor these system like it does. The data has value add to that what ever revenue they generate via advertising and from the apps it becomes clear that saying modern TiVo's (series 4-6) with lifetime don't generate revenue is incorrect.


Good revenue point.


> Also saying that TiVo's DVR business costs them money isn't exactly correct either, they have quarters where the DVR business was profitable. Also if they were to get out of the DVR sales business, it is an unknown if the existing user base would cost money or generate profit without any marketing or development costs (and minimum support, if any) - my pure 100% guess is it would be profitable for several years at least.


Related to this, I know that people have said that TiVo only has been profitable due to its lawsuits on its patents, as opposed to its "DVR business." But TiVo's lawsuits, and the resulting damages/payments, are to compensate TiVo for others' unlawful use of its "DVR business"--arguably, but for that unlawful use, TiVo would have had more "DVR business." And so, in that sense, it seems that those damages/payments indeed should be considered in considering whether TiVo's "DVR business" has been profitable. (I'm probably not explaining this well and the thought is a bit cloudy in my mind and perhaps not yet fully formed, but I think that this is a point of consideration.)


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I'm sorry, but you can't just drop the ethernet connection to test this accurately. I'm not aware that we truly have confidence in knowing whether the Tivo SW even attempts to negotiate interaction with hosted services if it detects zero connectivity. One would have to actually maintain an ethernet connection but prohibit connectivity to Tivo hosted solutions for the test to be viable. As to what features/functions are affected by the loss of Tivo hosted services - the jury is still out. That's the only fact at this point. 

In terms of all the debate about whether in some theoretical world, the "data they're collecting is valuable" - who cares? And it's not only highly debatable - but frankly outright ridiculous - to believe that the patent defenses are because had they not existed, the consumers would be using a Tivo branded box. That's preposterous. 

Furthermore, "some" people still seem to have a difficult time comprehending the difference between generating "revenue" and generating "profit". And remember, as a publicly held company, profits need to exceed the cost of cash, and at a minimum meet or exceed the profits that could be made were that money invested elsewhere. You can have billions of dollars in revenue - but lose money hand over fist. You can have only a million in revenue, but be very profitable. According to both annual and quarterly reports, the retail segment of Tivo has not been profitable on an annual basis. I'm more than willing to reassess that opinion if somebody can show actual numbers as depicted by public financial documents - as those reports currently show nothing of the kind. Nobody has ever said that current Tivos don't generate revenue. However, current Tivos with lifetime DO NOT generate revenue. At least not in any meaningful way. If somebody has direct facts to the contrary, please publish them. Please publish what kind of revenue, and from whom, Tivo gets. If it were there, it would be in their quarterly reports. Have you seen it? I have not seen evidence of such revenue.

Finally, as to the "minimal cost" associated with just support - this is a statement coming from people having no experience whatsoever in this market. Even maintenance support costs a lot of money. A lot. There is not a week that goes by that there are not patches and updates that have to be applied to both core, and supporting systems to start with. And, anybody who has been in this business (which is about as different as maintaining your PC as you could possibly imagine) knows that in particular externally facing proprietary software has to have integration and regression testing run - and that such testing often reveals that changes need to be made to your own software. Given the increasing pace at which vulnerabilities are discovered and addressed even with stuff as intrusive is the IP stack itself, encryption, authentication, this is a very common problem. It is why most hosted services prefer to run only one official "SW Version" (reduced cost and complexity). Also remember, that Tivo is a networked device on your network, capable of running apps on it. This should not be taken lightly.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> In terms of all the debate about whether in some theoretical world, the "data they're collecting is valuable" - who cares? And it's not only highly debatable - but frankly outright ridiculous - to believe that the patent defenses are because had they not existed, the consumers would be using a Tivo branded box. That's preposterous.


Of course it's relevant to revenue and the DVR line (and not just in some theoretical world). But, that's you opinion.


----------



## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Mikeguy said:


> And SkipMode disappears for me when my network/Internet connection is lost--you then realize how much you really like SkipMode!


Skipmode worked for me after reboot with no network cable connected.

Discovery bar was not populated as your previous experience.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

sfhub said:


> Skipmode worked for me after reboot with no network cable connected.
> 
> Discovery bar was not populated as your previous experience.


Thanks. That's way interesting as to SkipMode--perhaps it's been totally coincidental for me that the only time I've noticed that it hasn't worked for me has been when my network connection has been down. And this has been with multiple shows.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> Thanks. That's way interesting as to SkipMode--perhaps it's been totally coincidental for me that the only time I've noticed that it hasn't worked for me has been when my network connection has been down. And this has been with multiple shows.


It needs network connection initially to download the skip data, but once the green SKIP icon shows up next to the show it means the skip data has been downloaded locally so no need for network connection to use it.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> Furthermore, "some" people still seem to have a difficult time comprehending the difference between generating "revenue" and generating "profit". And remember, as a publicly held company, profits need to exceed the cost of cash, and at a minimum meet or exceed the profits that could be made were that money invested elsewhere. You can have billions of dollars in revenue - but lose money hand over fist. You can have only a million in revenue, but be very profitable. According to both annual and quarterly reports, the retail segment of Tivo has not been profitable on an annual basis. I'm more than willing to reassess that opinion if somebody can show actual numbers as depicted by public financial documents - as those reports currently show nothing of the kind. Nobody has ever said that current Tivos don't generate revenue. However, current Tivos with lifetime DO NOT generate revenue. At least not in any meaningful way. If somebody has direct facts to the contrary, please publish them. Please publish what kind of revenue, and from whom, Tivo gets. If it were there, it would be in their quarterly reports. Have you seen it? I have not seen evidence of such revenue.


Everything any of us are posting on what TiVo might do if x happens or what TiVo's revenue might be if X happens is just pure speculation. Or more simple put just Bull sh**.

I will take just one simple topic: "However, current Tivos with lifetime DO NOT generate revenue." Now prove what you said is correct - don't bother really - because all you can do is ramble on without proving anything. Same for me, I can not prove your statement is wrong either. All either of us can do is ramble on with half facts we have seen someplace. So in the end I think lifetime TiVos do generate revenue and you don't - so what?


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> Everything any of us are posting on what TiVo might do if x happens or what TiVo's revenue might be if X happens is just pure speculation. Or more simple put just Bull sh**.
> 
> I will take just one simple topic: "However, current Tivos with lifetime DO NOT generate revenue." Now prove what you said is correct - don't bother really - because all you can do is ramble on without proving anything. Same for me, I can not prove your statement is wrong either. All either of us can do is ramble on with half facts we have seen someplace. So in the end I think lifetime TiVos do generate revenue and you don't - so what?


So unfortunately, the Tivo quarterly reports do not support your opinion. Lifetime units only generate revenue at the time of purchase of the unit and lifetime. Period. There is absolutely no data, no facts, no information of any possible type that suggests otherwise.

Of course, you could also claim that Tivo Lifetime units extend the typical persons lifespan. Or that Lifetime units will increase the fuel economy of your vehicle. Each of those statements have the same amount of information supporting such a premise.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Mikeguy said:


> Of course it's relevant to revenue and the DVR line (and not just in some theoretical world). But, that's you opinion.


Please explain how. Exactly how is it relevant in terms of revenue?


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

wmhjr said:


> So unfortunately, the Tivo quarterly reports do not support your opinion. Lifetime units only generate revenue at the time of purchase of the unit and lifetime. Period. There is absolutely no data, no facts, no information of any possible type that suggests otherwise.


The numbers in the quarterly reports simply reflect the way that TiVo's accountants are choosing to categorize that specific revenue (the up-front price paid for hardware and lifetime service). But TiVo definitely has ongoing B2B revenue from their analytics and advertising services, which are based on data gleaned from all those TiVo boxes in use across the country, including retail boxes with lifetime service. See here:

Analytics & Advertising | TiVo


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> So unfortunately, the Tivo quarterly reports do not support your opinion. Lifetime units only generate revenue at the time of purchase of the unit and lifetime. Period. There is absolutely no data, no facts, no information of any possible type that suggests otherwise.
> 
> Of course, you could also claim that Tivo Lifetime units extend the typical persons lifespan. Or that Lifetime units will increase the fuel economy of your vehicle. Each of those statements have the same amount of information supporting such a premise.


Sorry there is no data to support your positon either. There is no way to tell from a quarterly report:

What add revenue TiVo gets from the adds on a lifetime unit and yes there are adds and always have been and no TiVo does not put them there for free.
What value the data TiVo collects is to TiVo and how that translates into revenue.
If/how TiVo monetizes the apps in some way - which is what Roku does.
Plus there is likely indirect revenue via people with lifetime units being more locked in thus continuing to buy more stuff form TiVo especially like the recent deal TiVo gave people to allow them to pay to transfer the lifetime service to a new unit all revenue not likely to have been generated if not for those lifetime units.

You have an opinion, that is all it is get over it.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

another explanation that supports the deduction tivo is ending retail support from conclusions based on staffing changes following a merger:


----------



## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

maybe thereis someone at Rovi/New Tivo that will do these jobs cheaper


----------



## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

ajwees41 said:


> maybe thereis someone at Rovi/New Tivo that will do these jobs cheaper


Sure, the next Margret will be based in Namibia.


----------



## dsga1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Margret likely getting out at good time...

Of my three Tivo Roamios, one has received new 20.7.2 (.RC24.xxx) as of today (Aug13). It's not Earth shattering but does include significant rearrangement of sub-menu options (example: system information now under HELP). Overall a more "refined" look /feel with various grayscale shading (primary colors removed from UI). streaming providers rearranged. I like it...

Was disturbed to recently read that changes to FCC (as part of new presidential appointees) could lead to easing the CARDcard requirement for 3rd support currently enforced on Comcast/Xfiniit, etc.
I suggest if this requirement disappears, then Tivo DVR's will soon follow. roku has a nice patent portfolio and can milk current/future cable/etc content providers across the nation. that's not a bad gig for basically doing nothing...


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

dsga1 said:


> Of my three Tivo Roamios, one has received new HYDRA interface as of today (Aug13). It's not Earth shattering but it does seem more "refined".


What you received isn't the new Hydra UI but just the completion of the HD interface which brings it inline with the Bolt (It sounds like you can sign up for Fieldtrials for Hydra though if interested). This is assuming that one now has 20.7.2 on it.

Scott


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

dsga1 said:


> Of my three Tivo Roamios, one has received new HYDRA interface as of today (Aug13). It's not Earth shattering but it does seem more "refined".


I doubt that, the discussion is on people getting the Bolt interface on the Roamio's that's 20.7.2 NOT Hydra, I believe the only people with Hydra are beta testers and they're not allowed to talk about it in public.


----------



## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Ann Wilson and Nell Carter are getting closer to the stage...


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

foghorn2 said:


> Ann Wilson and Nell Carter are getting closer to the stage...


Oh, please, you _have_ to explain that one, for the uninitiated . . . .


----------



## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

Mikeguy said:


> Oh, please, you _have_ to explain that one, for the uninitiated . . . .


It's not over until...


----------



## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

I came across this post about 2017 layoffs at TiVo from 4 month ago. It states that there was 3 rounds of layoffs already this year and Consumer Marketing has new leadership and people in that area are really nervous about their future.
Also the one comment states that the market keeps shrinking and they can't stop it, it is over.
2017 Layoffs? - post regarding TiVo Inc. layoffs
One thing that has not been considered is maybe more than just Margret was let go on Friday. I could have been numerous people in her department. Also it does not mean she was replaced either as the title of this thread maybe a little misleading. I think the state of CA releases the WARN notices twice a month on the 10th and 25th. Will have to wait to see if there is a listing for TiVo on the 25th and how many were let go.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Jed1 said:


> I came across this post about 2017 layoffs at TiVo from 4 month ago. It states that there was 3 rounds of layoffs already this year and Consumer Marketing has new leadership and people in that area are really nervous about their future.
> Also the one comment states that the market keeps shrinking and they can't stop it, it is over.
> 2017 Layoffs? - post regarding TiVo Inc. layoffs
> One thing that has not been considered is maybe more than just Margret was let go on Friday. I could have been numerous people in her department. Also it does not mean she was replaced either as the title of this thread maybe a little misleading. I think the state of CA releases the WARN notices twice a month on the 10th and 25th. Will have to wait to see if there is a listing for TiVo on the 25th and how many were let go.


Interesting but anyone could write that. Even relying on word of mouth from sources here is iffy let alone an anonymous internet post.


----------



## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

I joined this forum in 2003 when I bought my first TiVo (Series 2). From day one there have been posts speculating about or even warning of TiVo's imminent demise. Let's face it - there is no insider information to be found on this forum


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ADG said:


> I joined this forum in 2003 when I bought my first TiVo (Series 2). From day one there have been posts speculating about or even warning of TiVo's imminent demise. Let's face it - there is no insider information to be found on this forum


Yeb I came along 2 years later and the noticed same thing. All I can say is yes each day we are 1 day closer to TiVo not making/supporting DVRs and to the world ending. No benefit in worrying about either.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Since there are other retail DVRs, Tivo could sell their retail DVR business to one of those companies. The original Tivo was already bought out by Rovi.


----------



## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

I want a pony


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

SnakeEyes said:


> I want a pony


Pony left years ago.


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> Since there are other retail DVRs, Tivo could sell their retail DVR business to one of those companies. The original Tivo was already bought out by Rovi.


 Not that many companies left that don't mainly make there money selling to cable systems, They may not be convinced there is money in the retail side. most of Tivo's retail competition are OTA Dvr's and even those are starting to fail. Simple Tv is the most recent casualty.


----------



## b55er (Oct 9, 2006)

Read the reviews of TiVo on Glassdoor. Very telling!


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

SullyND said:


> Pony left years ago.


Wow...haven't thought about him in awhile...


----------



## Krandor (Jun 10, 2004)

SullyND said:


> Pony left years ago.


I miss him. He provided really good support on here.


----------



## Krandor (Jun 10, 2004)

tenthplanet said:


> Not that many companies left that don't mainly make there money selling to cable systems, They may not be convinced there is money in the retail side. most of Tivo's retail competition are OTA Dvr's and even those are starting to fail. Simple Tv is the most recent casualty.


and then with changes in the marketplace, people are going to be leaving. In fact I may be looking at the end of the road for me and tivo and not because I don't like tivo. When I moved recently, I got psvue for most of my TV watching but since I still had cable for internet I kept a minimal package on cable since it wasn't that much and used tivo with that. Gigabt fiber just because available in my area and I'm switching and once I turn of internet from comcast It probably won't make sense to keep even the basic TV package anymore and I'll probably just move over to ust vue (and plet, netflix, amazon, cbsaa, etc). Kinda sad to be looking at since I've had tivo since series 1 however the market is changing and of course tivo isn't the same company anymore.

It really is a shame tivo never tried to make a pure (or mostly) streaming box like a roku. That I could still use because if i go this route I'll bya fire stick or a roku to put on my other TVs (my main entertainment room is covered).


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Sigh, Ira has left. He'll be missed and I'll always thank him for killing the Mini service fees.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

davezatz said:


> Sigh, Ira has left. He'll be missed and I'll always thank him for killing the Mini service fees.


Thanks, Dave, for the update.

A big sigh--and so our other friend has moved on.  I wish him well and thank him for all his courtesies, thinking of us here and of the consumer.

I wonder, will Rovi/TiVo consider having other liaisons join us here?


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

davezatz said:


> Sigh, Ira has left. He'll be missed and I'll always thank him for killing the Mini service fees.


Both Margret and Ira leaving at essentially the same time is a pretty big deal (although maybe just coincidental). Any inside info -- or even hunches -- as to what's going on at TiVo that precipitated those moves? Was it just a case of two of the "old guard" leaders leaving voluntarily after the merger? Were they dismissed because TiVo is totally reorganizing parts of the company? Is it the beginning of the end for retail?


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Any inside info -- or even hunches -- as to what's going on at TiVo that precipitated those moves?


Take it with a grain of salt, but this is what I'm hearing...

Ira's departure was planned as part of the post-Rovi transition while Margret's departure was in relation to a civil war of sorts around the Hydra experience - which is much more than a user interface, but a far more substantial rewrite from the ground up vs the Haxe stuff a few years back.

Retail has been up in the air awhile and remains in the air is my take. The current approach is whatever they can get to retail cheaply - limited development, limited marketing, manage expenses. Like stuff they're also doing for MSO -- the upcoming retail TiVo 4K Mini is Arris hardware that MSOs will also get. When the new President or CEO comes in, the strategy could shift. Market forces and responses could also change things, etc.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

davezatz said:


> Margret's departure was in relation to a civil war of sorts around the Hydra experience - which is much more than a user interface, but a far more substantial rewrite from the ground up vs the Haxe stuff a few years back.


Hmm, so Hydra amounts to an all-new (or significantly changed) TiVo OS codebase rather than just a new top-layer UI? (More analogous, perhaps, to the radical jump from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X as opposed to, say, the move from Windows 7 to Windows 8?) I guess that would help explain why, if a unit is upgraded to Hydra, it can't revert back.

Any word on what the nature of the conflict was surrounding Hydra and what Margret's departure portends (if anything) for its future rollout?


----------



## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Both Margret and Ira leaving at essentially the same time is a pretty big deal (although maybe just coincidental). Any inside info -- or even hunches -- as to what's going on at TiVo that precipitated those moves? Was it just a case of two of the "old guard" leaders leaving voluntarily after the merger? Were they dismissed because TiVo is totally reorganizing parts of the company? Is it the beginning of the end for retail?


 probably Rovi already had people in the same jobs that they did, so they were let go.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ajwees41 said:


> probably Rovi already had people in the same jobs that they did, so they were let go.


Best case scenario. Although, there's something to be said for one with expertise and history. Less-pleasant scenario: this means something as to Rovi's plans and interest level.


----------



## Davisadm (Jan 19, 2008)

Also, TiVo will not be exhibiting at CEDIA. That is a bad sign! CEDIA used to be where TiVo announced new products and software. First, they dropped out of CES, then lost their 2 most significant people, and now, no CEDIA. The writing does not look good!


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Davisadm said:


> Also, TiVo will not be exhibiting at CEDIA. That is a bad sign! CEDIA used to be where TiVo announced new products and software. First, they dropped out of CES, then lost their 2 most significant people, and now, no CEDIA. The writing does not look good!


Well, I guess, what really is there to show? (Although there can be an advantage simply to have a presence.)

The 4K Mini, or voice remote? But, are they in a position to be shown? And, even if yes, really, is there much there?


----------



## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

They might have an offsite suite somewhere. They are listed as an exhibitor, but no booth number. Perhaps they will be at a distributor booth?


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

DigitalDawn said:


> They might have an offsite suite somewhere. They are listed as an exhibitor, but no booth number. Perhaps they will be at a distributor booth?


What do they really have to display/talk about? Maybe they're going to have a Jenga display using Bolts. 

edit: Reading this later, and apart from the Bolt inside joke (I _like_ my Bolt, even in white!), I didn't mean to come off as snarky. It's just that, really, what does a company like TiVo have to show at a trade show, especially when it does not have a new model out? Even if the Mini 4K was out, very little to see there; although, I guess with a voice remote, people could play with that some.


----------



## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

TiVo was going after the custom install channel. Since the acquisition, I'm not sure that's a priority any longer. Also, IMO, because cable operators have been forbidden to use SkipMode by their content providers, I can't see that feature sticking around too much longer.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

DigitalDawn said:


> Also, IMO, because cable operators have been forbidden to use SkipMode by their content providers, I can't see that feature sticking around too much longer.


I hadn't thought about that before. But your hunch seems at least somewhat plausible, assuming that TiVo's next CEO decides to stick with the apparent current strategy of "let's minimize costs on retail efforts by only offering them whatever is also of use for the main MSO partnership business," which is the upshot of what Zatz said above:



davezatz said:


> Retail has been up in the air awhile and remains in the air is my take. The current approach is whatever they can get to retail cheaply - limited development, limited marketing, manage expenses. Like stuff they're also doing for MSO -- the upcoming retail TiVo 4K Mini is Arris hardware that MSOs will also get. When the new President or CEO comes in, the strategy could shift. Market forces and responses could also change things, etc.


Of course, the development costs to create SkipMode in the first place are already sunk but there's the ongoing costs of paying humans to manually tag ad breaks for a lot of shows every day. Assuming those labor costs aren't useful to the MSO business because MSOs can't offer SkipMode per their carriage agreements with networks, then I could imagine the TiVo bean-counters wanting to get rid of the feature to make their shrinking retail business more profitable.

But here's the thing: would TiVo really do that? It would obviously prompt a huge outcry from angry TiVo retail customers. It's hard to take away a feature after giving it to consumers, especially when that feature was one of the main selling points TiVo advertised for the new Bolt when it was introduced. Aside from any considerations of a potential class action lawsuit such a move might trigger, I think it would be widely viewed by the public as the "beginning of the end" for TiVo retail service, despite whatever assurances TiVo's PR team might offer.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Of course, the development costs to create SkipMode in the first place are already sunk but there's the ongoing costs of paying humans to manually tag ad breaks for a lot of shows every day. Assuming those labor costs aren't useful to the MSO business because MSOs can't offer SkipMode per their carriage agreements with networks, then I could imagine the TiVo bean-counters wanting to get rid of the feature to make their shrinking retail business more profitable.


Have all MSOs worldwide rejected SkipMode? Was it ever offered there? I haven't been paying attention. For the US, I assume TiVo went with humans to lessen the possibility of legal action. Given the small and maybe dwindling retail footprint, if they'd already built programmatic scanning (done using meta data), they could reduce the human costs. Assuming they haven't already done that.

Skipping CEDIA is a red flag I'm not pleased about... :/


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

davezatz said:


> Have all MSOs worldwide rejected SkipMode? Was it ever offered there? I haven't been paying attention. For the US, I assume TiVo went with humans to lessen the possibility of legal action. Given the small and maybe dwindling retail footprint, if they'd already built programmatic scanning (done using meta data), they could reduce the human costs. Assuming they haven't already done that.
> 
> Skipping CEDIA is a red flag I'm not pleased about... :/


I have no idea about SkipMode's availability by non-US MSOs, although given that other countries have (somewhat) different shows with different ad breaks, it seems to me that TiVo would have to employ additional sets of people to offer that feature in those other countries.

And honestly, I don't know whether all of TiVo's MSO partners refuse to use SkipMode. That's what DigitalDawn says and, given the realities of the US TV industry (e.g. the reaction of networks to Dish's AutoHop), I assume she's correct.

I don't know if TiVo uses humans to enable SkipMode for legal reasons or because humans are more accurate at recognizing ad breaks or both. My guess is that TiVo uses programmatic scanning to initially tag the jump points at the beginnings and ends of ad breaks and then humans verify those tags and adjust them if needed. Assuming that TiVo could dump the humans and get "good enough" results with automation, that would seem like a more likely outcome for SkipMode than dropping the feature completely.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

It seems like skip mode isn't part of the software release since Tivo deployed skip mode to the Roamio's outside of a release. Skip mode seems like a premium feature that Tivo could use to lure cable customers using an MSO tivo to buy a retail Tivo.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> It seems like skip mode isn't part of the software release since Tivo deployed skip mode to the Roamio's outside of a release.


The software upgrade was required for skip mode to work on the Roamio but they also had the ability to have the functionality disabled or enabled on a per TSN basis.

Scott


----------



## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

Skip Mode is not available on *any* non-retail MSO in this country. And it is a feature that uses both technology and humans to implement. It's the "human" component that's costing TiVo money.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> This is no longer correct as Arris sold the Moxi UI to Espial in June of 2016. Right now Espial is in financial trouble so don't expect this to last much longer if they fail. Espial bought way to many assets that have little to no income, including Moxi UI, so they are drowning in debt with very little income.
> Espial Announces Agreement to Acquire Whole Home Solution Platform from ARRIS - Espial
> Espial : Concerned Shareholder of Espial Group Inc. Urges Shareholders to Vote FOR a Refreshed Board of Directors to Improve Performance | 4-Traders


More patent for new-TiVo.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TiVo has just hired a new head of their consumer business, Ted Malone.
TiVo Taps Ted Malone to Lead Consumer Business | Multichannel


----------



## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> TiVo has just hired a new head of their consumer business, Ted Malone.
> TiVo Taps Ted Malone to Lead Consumer Business | Multichannel


Does this help allay fears that they may abandon retail?


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

mrizzo80 said:


> Does this help allay fears that they may abandon retail?


Also, is this guy good or bad for TiVo? Anyone know anything about him?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Interesting choice.

Apparently he actually worked for Tivo previously, between 1998 to 2004, and was part of getting the UK business up and running. Tivo was hiring a lot of SGI folks in the early days, and he was one of 'em. Bit of a homecoming for him.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Johncv said:


> Also, is this guy good or bad for TiVo? Anyone know anything about him?


Ted worked at TiVo in the old, old days and is actually the guy who named the "Series 2". I worked with him while at Sling for a couple of years before he jumped to Microsoft Mediaroom, which was Microsoft's MSO DVR experience (think AT&T UVerse) and later acquired by Ericsson. He's a real good dude. We didn't always see eye to eye on approach at Sling and he's been out of consumer a awhile, but I'd say he's a great hire.

Hopefully he remembers that time I saved his life at CES and won't take it personally when I blog unreleased items.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

davezatz said:


> Ted worked at TiVo in the old, old days and is actually the guy who named the "Series 2".


Yep, that's a clever naming.


----------



## adessmith (Oct 5, 2007)

But if TiVo drops retail they will no longer have beta testing as a source of income. Why would they drop such a genius business model?
Think about it, we are happy to pony up the money to use hardware and software that hasn't made it to the MSO market (TiVo's core market going forward), they push updates and new features out to us, and collect data about what works and what doesn't. They charge us for that privilege, and then license it to Cable Companies...
Haha!


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Another one bites the dust...

TiVo COO Pete Thompson Resigns | Multichannel

He was brought on board just over a year ago to oversee product integration between TiVo and Rovi. Maybe that project is all wrapped up now? He's moving on to Amazon, where he'll work on Alexa stuff. I guess he got his feet wet with the upcoming TiVo Vox voice remote and wanted to continue working on voice tech...


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Another one bites the dust...
> 
> TiVo COO Pete Thompson Resigns | Multichannel
> 
> He was brought on board just over a year ago to oversee product integration between TiVo and Rovi. Maybe that project is all wrapped up now? He's moving on to Amazon, where he'll work on Alexa stuff. I guess he got his feet wet with the upcoming TiVo Vox voice remote and wanted to continue working on voice tech...


Well, given that the TiVo-Rovi integration is now complete and works so well, there probably wasn't anything further for him to do at the New TiVo.

And Amazon, no doubt seeing how good a job PT did in integrating TiVo and Rovi and being impressed by the job, will be paying him substantial $$.


----------



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

adessmith said:


> But if TiVo drops retail they will no longer have beta testing as a source of income. Why would they drop such a genius business model?
> Think about it, we are happy to pony up the money to use hardware and software that hasn't made it to the MSO market (TiVo's core market going forward), they push updates and new features out to us, and collect data about what works and what doesn't. They charge us for that privilege, and then license it to Cable Companies...
> Haha!


No, we're not happy as evidenced but relatively meager retail subs. And according to their financial statements, neither are they.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Happy to see that, just a bit over 2-1/2 years after Rovi Corp.'s acquisition of the old TiVo, Inc., the TiVo division and TiVo boxes still are very much here, despite some predictions above.  And those who bought Lifetime around that time are near to their break-even point, to come out ahead (again despite some predictions).


----------

