# S3 for $399 very soon?



## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

according to this story , it might happen in the not-so-distant future..

I wonder if that article will have an effect on this poll ...either way, I'm sure the price will be under $400 by next spring/early summer...

Poll: 46 Percent Would Buy $399 TiVo HD DVR
The DVR service is considering dropping the price on the high-def recorder.
By Phillip Swann

Washington, D.C. (March 10, 2007) -- TiVo CEO Tom Rogers said this week his company needs to drop the price on its $799 Series 3 HD DVR, adding that sales have been disappointing....


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## Kipp Jones (Nov 12, 2006)

I would buy two/three more if they did and get rid of my 3 Comcast DVRs. I already have 2 Series 3 DVRs.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

peitsche said:


> TiVo CEO Tom Rogers said this week his company needs to drop the price on its $799 Series 3 HD DVR, adding that sales have been disappointing....


Well, I haven't seen much discounting from Best Buy or Circuit City, which can't exactly help matters. These two big box stores don't seem to carry if the Series 3 sit on their shelves forever. But they've got televisions for sale every week. But they are both for-profit companies (well, at least BB is profitable), so they will probably only advertise (and mark down) what they think/know can sell.

Judging by the speed at which Dell sold out of theirs when they were about $500, the $400 price point should be where Tivo wants to be to get more consumer interest (other than devoted Tivo followers). To put everything in perspective, though, the Humax DVD Burner Units were selling for $500 two years ago, I believe.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

I wonder if $399 is the 'consumer' version spoken about earlier this week?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

They need to drop the price, and they need to incorporate an answer for SDV. I took the gamble and bought one, but wouldn't do it again until I heard something definitive... (I'm with TimeWarner.)


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

Good point. I wonder if the new unit will address SDV?


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## chipvideo (Sep 25, 2006)

I would buy 3 or 4 more at that price if it could handle SDTV and if the montly fees were discounted bigtime since I would have 4 or 5 tivo's. Also would be nice to be able to stream one to the other.


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

He says "a mass market HD receiver later this year." That sounds exactly like what we heard previously. It won't be the S3.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Fofer said:


> They need to drop the price, and they need to incorporate an answer for SDV. I took the gamble and bought one, but wouldn't do it again until I heard something definitive... (I'm with TimeWarner.)


As someone who's also in a TWC market, though currently a D* sub, I don't fault you one bit for adopting that stance.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

hornblowercat said:


> He says "a mass market HD receiver later this year."


He said:
"We will be highly focused this year on moving forward with a lower-priced, mass appeal High-Def unit".

They will be _focused_ this year on delivering the mass market HD receiver ... nothing about it actually being _delivered_ this year. In the conference call he also said they'd be ready to talk about details "later in the year".

I personally haven't seen / heard Tivo actually commit to delivering the mass market HD receiver this year anywhere.


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

dt_dc said:


> He said:
> "We will be highly focused this year on moving forward with a lower-priced, mass appeal High-Def unit".
> 
> They will be _focused_ this year on delivering the mass market HD receiver ... nothing about it actually being _delivered_ this year. In the conference call he also said they'd be ready to talk about details "later in the year".
> ...


I assume you highlighted this as I said something that was misinformative. I don't see anything different from what I said then what you said. I didn't say there would be a mass market HD unit developed, just that they were moving forward on the idea.


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

I might even bite if it gets to that price point...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

All they need to do is lower the S3. I'd pick up a fourth unit for $400.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Note that Swann has proven he knows much less than the folks here on numerous occasions over the years. He's wrong again here. Rogers very strongly said that TiVo will be coming out with a new HD model, not reducing the price on the S3 to make it their low-cost HD model. They are not interested in subsidizing HD models (and will be dropping their subsidies of the DT in the future).


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## Thursday (Nov 6, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> All they need to do is lower the S3. I'd pick up a fourth unit for $400.


I wonder if they can. If you look at a company like Microsoft and the Xbox 360, they are loosing money in upwards of 150 per console. I imagine that it all has to do with how much the S3 costs to make. If it is in the neighborhood of 400-500 dollars, then I don't see how Tivo could possibly make the S3 for sale at that price. Unlike Microsoft, Tivo doesn't have the option of eating 150 per S3 because there is no secondary income as with the games and accessories with the xbox. While there is the monthly subscription fee, 13$ a month per tivo is hardly adequate enough to take that kind of a hit per box.


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

I still don't understand why so many people are assuming it will be the S3 with the lower price. I say it will be another model and I doubt very much that it will deal with SDV. 

SDV is not anything new just because it's been a hot topic for a month or so around here. Matter of fact there is a poll (you do the search) that shows the majority of S3 buyers knew in advance of SDV.

So I suspect it will not have most of the features of the S3, may not even have the possibility of TTG or MRV. It will definitely be better then anything the cable company offers, but that's about it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Thursday said:


> I wonder if they can. If you look at a company like Microsoft and the Xbox 360, they are loosing money in upwards of 150 per console. I imagine that it all has to do with how much the S3 costs to make. If it is in the neighborhood of 400-500 dollars, then I don't see how Tivo could possibly make the S3 for sale at that price. Unlike Microsoft, Tivo doesn't have the option of eating 150 per S3 because there is no secondary income as with the games and accessories with the xbox. While there is the monthly subscription fee, 13$ a month per tivo is hardly adequate enough to take that kind of a hit per box.


Microsoft actually makes money on each console now.They don't lose any money on console sales anymore since sometime late last year.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

hornblowercat said:


> I assume you highlighted this as I said something that was misinformative. I don't see anything different from what I said then what you said. I didn't say there would be a mass market HD unit developed, just that they were moving forward on the idea.


Sorry ... wasn't aimed at you personally. Several people seem to be jumping from Rogers' comments to 'something actually coming _out_ and on the shelves this year' in a telephone / down the alley kindof way.

For example, from engadget:
TiVo CEO promises lower-priced HD TiVo this year

Of course, he didn't say it _wouldn't_ be on the shelves this year either. Then again, he didn't say it would either.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Thursday said:


> Unlike Microsoft, Tivo doesn't have the option of eating 150 per S3 because there is no secondary income as with the games and accessories with the xbox. While there is the monthly subscription fee, 13$ a month per tivo is hardly adequate enough to take that kind of a hit per box.


Why not... they'd make it back in a year! Don't they have confidence we'd still be using the S3 and subscribing, in a year?


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

hornblowercat said:


> I still don't understand why so many people are assuming it will be the S3 with the lower price. I say it will be another model...


I get your point but are we sure that Rogers is actually talking about anything other than the TiVo-for-Comcast product (the download-the-TiVo-software-to-your-existing-Motorola-box kind)? If so, could you provide a quote for that?


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

after reading the transcript of the recent earnings call , I now see that it does make sense to interpret his comments to mean that the lower-priced HD unit will indeed be a new and different hardware product. sorry for not paying attention to that earlier. here's the relevant part for people like me who missed it: 

Now, before I turn the call over to Steve for a detailed discussion on the financials and guidance, I want to walk through five key engines that did not exist last year, and that we now have in place that we believe will significantly help drive the company's momentum in fiscal 2008.

First, delivering broadband content directly to the television goes from concept to marketplace reality this year through our launch with Amazon and our broadband features like TiVoCast, Home Movies on TiVo and autotranscode. We'll continue to innovate and we have many great initiatives and ideas for this year.

Second, our mass distribution strategy becomes a reality later this year, as the TiVo service on Comcast is scheduled to launch in the relatively near future and Cox is targeted for initial market availability later this year.

Third, we came out of the holiday season with the full attention of our retail partners focused on the important role that TiVo can play in their goal to offer bundles of High-Definition products and services to consumers.

*The TiVo Series3 High-Def Digital Media Recorder is the first standalone TiVo product that is HD compatible. And as I said, we received greatest reviews for its functionality. It is also considered by many retailers to be the first successfully launched CableCARD consumer electronics product.

We will be highly focused this year on moving forward with a lower-priced, mass appeal High-Def unit, which will allow us to much better participate in the HD television trend. On top of that, again, I would like to say that, minimizing subsidies will be a key goal for us with this product line as well.*

Fourth, for the first time, TiVo plans to meaningfully advertise its products throughout year with a far more extensive effort to educate the market on TiVo's superior brand and its highly differentiated features.

Moreover, key cable operators will become marketing components of TiVo, as they offer to their subscribers the TiVo service, thus helping consumers understand the differences between TiVo and generic alternatives in contrast to current practices, which often creates confusion.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

peitsche said:


> S3 for $399 very soon? according to this story , it might happen in the not-so-distant future.


What are you talking about! That not what the story said at all! What a misleading topic title!


peitsche said:


> ...either way, I'm sure the price will be under $400 by next spring/early summer...


Oh, you're *sure*?!?

The TiVo CEO said that they are going to start looking at making a cheaper HD TiVo. We've already seen that news. However, the $399 number just came from a poll where people said that they'd buy one at that price. Fine. I bet that people will also be willing to buy one at $99. Doesn't that mean that TiVo will have a HD TiVo for $99? No, of course not.


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## Cormode (Feb 27, 2003)

peitsche said:


> after reading the transcript of the recent earnings call , I now see that it does make sense to interpret his comments to mean that the lower-priced HD unit will indeed be a new and different hardware product.


What will the new mass market appeal HD tivo look like. My conjecture is that the new device will essentially be a stripped down S3.

- Identical PCB (motherboard) design to the S3, but missing various components. A new MB design will no sense if trying to hit a price point, so I suspect the missing parts will include:

- a single tuner design (one tuner for cable and one for ASTC but repsented in the GUI as a single tuner) The other tuners will simply be vacant on the PCB

- similarly, there will be a single cable card slot

- a simpler outer shell with no OLED display or front buttons

- will not bother with THX certification (although it would perform identically to the S3)

- no esta connector

- still no analog RCA inputs (component or composite)

- Free Tivo basic via the usb or ethernet (but not via telephone line)

- standard S2 style remote

- 200GB or smaller hard drive

This could be ready in a few months. Mainly the only cost savings on a per unit basis would come from two less tuners (parts + license fees) , a cheaper case and smaller drive. These are the changes I would make to hit a $400 price that would still justify keeping the MSRP on the S3 at $600+


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## IHDB (Mar 9, 2007)

peitsche said:


> Washington, D.C. (March 10, 2007) -- TiVo CEO Tom Rogers said this week his company needs to drop the price on its $799 Series 3 HD DVR, adding that sales have been disappointing....


This is why I hate the media - from the quotes above, Tom Rogers said nothing of the sort. He said sales "met expectations", which is hardly dissapointing, and that they would have to create a new, cheaper product - not lower the price on the S3.

It's a sad state of affairs when people who can't get their facts straight are misleading millions of Americans on issues great and small...


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## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

Cormode said:


> What will the new mass market appeal HD tivo look like. My conjecture is that the new device will essentially be a stripped down S3.
> 
> - Identical PCB (motherboard) design to the S3, but missing various components. A new MB design will no sense if trying to hit a price point, so I suspect the missing parts will include:
> 
> ...


1 tuner means no sales in my book. I see Tivo going the way of Betamax unless they find a way to eat the up front cost. The only way this business model works is if there is no alternative. Ask Directv how many customers they are losing as a result of FIOS and cable competition, when they ask their customer to pay up front for rental equipment to get HD.

Sorry but the market is for the average user not the early adapter or audiophile. It will be just a matter of time before the S3 is selling for $199


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## DangerSpoon (Mar 11, 2007)

Perhaps a sin to utter this out loud, but I don't understand why a mass market user (i.e., not a TiVo fanatic) would pay *anything* for an HD TiVo, when you get one for free from Comcast/TimeWarner/CableVision etc.


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## Cormode (Feb 27, 2003)

DangerSpoon said:


> Perhaps a sin to utter this out loud, but I don't understand why a mass market user (i.e., not a TiVo fanatic) would pay *anything* for an HD TiVo, when you get one for free from Comcast/TimeWarner/CableVision etc.


Anyone who has lived in a household with a tivo for few months IS a tivo fanatic, even if they don't realize it. Anyone who says differently needs to either unplug their tivo for two weeks or try any of the very sad cable co DVRs for three weeks. At the end of either experiment most people already used to a tivo'ed lifestyle with confess to being a fanatic.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Cormode said:


> Anyone who has lived in a household with a tivo for few months IS a tivo fanatic, even if they don't realize it. Anyone who says differently needs to either unplug their tivo for two weeks or try any of the very sad cable co DVRs for three weeks. At the end of either experiment most people already used to a tivo'ed lifestyle with confess to being a fanatic.


I'm not so sure about that anymore. My wife and I are living on opposite coasts right now. I have a S3 with Cox cable and she has the TWC DVR (running Passport). Once she got over the "it doesn't work like a TiVo" she has found the 8300HD running Passport to be a very capable device. We will be merging the households back together, and I'm looking at the S3 and asking myself if it's really work the extra money (which includes the $800 aquisition cost plus the $10 or so a month more the TiVo costs when you include the TiVo fee and the cablecards). The only reason we might keep the TiVo is that most of the HD we watch is OTA and we have a good antenna. That and the unknown of the new Navigator software.

This from someone who has had a S2, the DirecTV HDTiVo, and an S3.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

I agree that Swann's story is directly contrary to Tom Rogers' public statements. He either had a separate interview with Rogers or he made a faulty assumption (that the Series 3 was not a mass-market product and thus had disappointing sales). Transcripts from Tivo's last two conference calls don't agree with what

"While still in the early days, we have received positive consumer feedback on the product, with Series 3 sales meeting our expectations."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/21451

"It is also considered by many retailers to be the first successfully launched CableCARD consumer electronics product."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/28959



IHDB said:


> This is why I hate the media - from the quotes above, Tom Rogers said nothing of the sort. He said sales "met expectations", which is hardly dissapointing, and that they would have to create a new, cheaper product - not lower the price on the S3.
> 
> It's a sad state of affairs when people who can't get their facts straight are misleading millions of Americans on issues great and small...


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

Bold added. This is where Tivo needs to go. They need to have an agreement with a television manufacturer or electronics retailers to bundle their products. Since Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players are still expensive, and I haven't seen burners of either sort, I believe the time is now rather than later to get a product to the consumers that they want.

Samsung's Blu-Ray player was marked down by about $300 (to a $500 selling price) when purchased with a 1080p television by retailers like Best Buy and Vanns. Best Buy had the further stipulation that it had to be a Samsung television. It would make perfect sense to me that a buyer of a HDTV might be willing to pay an additional $500 for a Tivo Series 3. A "dumbed-down" version for under $400 with the purchase of a HDTV would be equally attractive to buyers.



peitsche said:


> after reading the transcript of the recent earnings call , I now see that it does make sense to interpret his comments to mean that the lower-priced HD unit will indeed be a new and different hardware product. sorry for not paying attention to that earlier. here's the relevant part for people like me who missed it:
> 
> *Third, we came out of the holiday season with the full attention of our retail partners focused on the important role that TiVo can play in their goal to offer bundles of High-Definition products and services to consumers.*


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> He said:
> "We will be highly focused this year on moving forward with a lower-priced, mass appeal High-Def unit".
> 
> They will be _focused_ this year on delivering the mass market HD receiver ... nothing about it actually being _delivered_ this year. In the conference call he also said they'd be ready to talk about details "later in the year".
> ...


You are absolutely right in your interpretation. We have no idea how far they are in creating this.

They do have an urgent need for it, that much is clear.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Cormode said:


> Anyone who has lived in a household with a tivo for few months IS a tivo fanatic, even if they don't realize it.





pkscout said:


> I'm not so sure about that anymore. My wife and I are living on opposite coasts right now. I have a S3 with Cox cable and she has the TWC DVR (running Passport). Once she got over the "it doesn't work like a TiVo" she has found the 8300HD running Passport to be a very capable device. We will be merging the households back together, and I'm looking at the S3 and asking myself if it's really work the extra money (which includes the $800 aquisition cost plus the $10 or so a month more the TiVo costs when you include the TiVo fee and the cablecards). The only reason we might keep the TiVo is that most of the HD we watch is OTA and we have a good antenna. That and the unknown of the new Navigator software.
> 
> This from someone who has had a S2, the DirecTV HDTiVo, and an S3.


+1

I've used all flavors of TiVo, both S1 and S2 standalone and DirecTV-integrated, since 2000 and auditioned other DVR platforms and found them not to be the kryptonite that hardcore TiVotees proclaim them to be. There are actually features I prefer on the other platforms.

I gave a Lifetime S1 to a couple and they were thrilled at first. "I finally see some value to paying a cable subscription", the husband told me after a weeks use. They had Lifeline cable at the time and every time they changed service, from Lifeline to Digital Cable, then adding digital phone service, I'd get called out to troubleshoot the TiVo. They were under the impression the TWC guy would handle the TiVo as well. How innocent! 

I stumbled a bit setting up PPP through serial port for them. I'm sure I would have sorted it out eventually, but they called a halt and said they'd be looking at the TWC DVR. That was nearly 2 years ago and I've heard very little from them since then, mostly about the vid quality of recordings transfered to their DVD recorder, but I think that's a signal quality issue I've advised them to have TWC do a test on, but I don't know if they have.

They moved to HD last Summer and swapped out their SD DVR for a HD DVR from TWC. I mentioned the S3 and it's particulars when it was launched to them, but they just shook their heads. So the idea of the blanket statement, "Once you go TiVo, you never go elsewhere" isn't true in all cases.

As far as the S3 never going below a certain price point, how many electronic devices stay near their original MSRP the longer they stay on the market? When I got my first TiVo in the Fall of 2000, it was nowhere near the price quoted for a 14 hour Philips on the infomercial I saw on D*. People like to say that the S3 isn't intended for the mass market, to which I'd counter that when the S1s first hit the market they weren't priced for the mass market, but they came down because the subscription cost is what generates continued revenue. I have no guarantee that will happen to the S3, but it it's a situation where if they're just sitting in boxes, TiVo will have to move on the issue.


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## davidahn (Jun 6, 2005)

I agree 100% with Cormode. Well, 99%. I totally agree with everything except the 200GB HD size. I think they MAY get 250GB in there to differentiate themselves from the 120-160GB cable company DVRs, and move the S3 up to 400 or 500GB (they're probably about $60 wholesale). They could use a weaker CPU, weaker decoder chip, and less RAM (though 128MB of RAM is probably $2 anyway). 

They could even improve their revenue stream by adding 750GB and 1000GB options (only on the high-end S3), though that may be a bit tricky in terms of inventory management, but other companies have multiple configurations and make them work.

David



Cormode said:


> What will the new mass market appeal HD tivo look like. My conjecture is that the new device will essentially be a stripped down S3.
> 
> - Identical PCB (motherboard) design to the S3, but missing various components. A new MB design will no sense if trying to hit a price point, so I suspect the missing parts will include:
> 
> ...


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

davidahn said:


> They could even improve their revenue stream by adding 750GB and 1000GB options (only on the high-end S3), though that may be a bit tricky in terms of inventory management, but other companies have multiple configurations and make them work.David


Seems to me that, that's why they have an eSATA port, for increasing hdd space. It's just not activated yet.


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## kucharsk (Feb 2, 2007)

DangerSpoon said:


> Perhaps a sin to utter this out loud, but I don't understand why a mass market user (i.e., not a TiVo fanatic) would pay *anything* for an HD TiVo, when you get one for free from Comcast/TimeWarner/CableVision etc.


Because perhaps you don't pay confiscatory rates to a cable company each month?

I've got an S3 because I'm OTA only, and found the S3 to be an *inexpensive* solution compared to the around $900 I paid for an LG LST-3410a around two years ago with its much smaller capacity hard drive.


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## djones18 (Jan 6, 2006)

I hope the speculation is true. In my opinion, TIVO should market a $399.00 unit to survive the new HD era and they should do it soon. At least two reasons come to mind:

1. Subscriptions (not sales) sustain TIVO's revenue stream. Series 3s are clearly superior to competitors. However, $600.00+ machines do not draw enough customers to sustain growth, especially if it is true that sales are not meeting expectations (making CEOs and stockholders jittery).

2. Many Cablecos will, by year-end, offer a TIVO user interface to their HD/DVRs at a slightly increased price. This will likely siphon off many potential TIVO customers who hate their Cableco's HD/DVR user interface and reliability but can't stomach TIVO's current price.

I currently own a Series 2 and rent two SA 8300HD DVRs from Cox. At $399.00, I would immediately purchase one TIVO HD/DVR, then wait to see how the Cablecos introduce the TIVO interface to their units. At that time, I'd either rent or purchase a second TIVO.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

pkscout said:


> I'm not so sure about that anymore. My wife and I are living on opposite coasts right now. I have a S3 with Cox cable and she has the TWC DVR (running Passport). Once she got over the "it doesn't work like a TiVo" she has found the 8300HD running Passport to be a very capable device. We will be merging the households back together, and I'm looking at the S3 and asking myself if it's really work the extra money (which includes the $800 aquisition cost plus the $10 or so a month more the TiVo costs when you include the TiVo fee and the cablecards). The only reason we might keep the TiVo is that most of the HD we watch is OTA and we have a good antenna. That and the unknown of the new Navigator software.
> 
> This from someone who has had a S2, the DirecTV HDTiVo, and an S3.


If the costs were equal, would you chose TiVo or the cable DVR?

To me, the cable DVR feels like a pile of steaming junk compared to the TiVo, and the only reason I keep the cable DVR for now is that there is no upfront cost for it. If I had the money for a Series 3 right now the cable DVR would be gone before I finished typing this sentence.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

As a S3 owner I (selfishly) don't like this idea at all... it just distracts the limited resources at Tivo away from more software updates for the S3, including MRV/TTG. If they added MRV/TTG to the S3 (even just for unencrypted channels) that would be a tremendous boost to the S3 sales IMO. I for one would buy another unit and many bystanders would probably jump in as well.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

DangerSpoon said:


> Perhaps a sin to utter this out loud, but I don't understand why a mass market user (i.e., not a TiVo fanatic) would pay *anything* for an HD TiVo, when you get one for free from Comcast/TimeWarner/CableVision etc.


It's not a sin to utter that out loud, but it's the same as why any driver (i.e., not a automobile fanatic) would pay *anything* for a Lexus, when you get one for 10's of thousands less from Honda/Hundi/Chevy etc.

A Lexus is just a car, right? A CIVIC will get you from point A to point B just as well. Are all the Lexus drivers out there just fanatics?

My wife has CIVIC. Once she got over the fact that "it doesn't drive like a Lexus", she has found the CIVIC to be a very capable automobile. (She likes here CIVIC, but she's never even sat in a Lexus)

As she's never driven one, she can't understand why anyone would pay so much for a car.

Those who drive 'em won't pay *anything* for 'em, but they will pay a lot more.

But each to his own, eh?


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

MickeS said:


> If the costs were equal, would you chose TiVo or the cable DVR?
> 
> To me, the cable DVR feels like a pile of steaming junk compared to the TiVo, and the only reason I keep the cable DVR for now is that there is no upfront cost for it. If I had the money for a Series 3 right now the cable DVR would be gone before I finished typing this sentence.


Honestly, I don't know. I'm used to the TiVo interface, but the Passport software really isn't that bad. Once price is eliminated then I think right now I'd probably hedge my bets and go with the TWC DVR. The primary reason for that is that I can get all channels in digital with the TWC DVR, but in NC they don't provide the below 100 channels in digital to CableCard users (they are preparing to do those channels via SDV).

Now, if the price were the same *and* I could get all the same channels in the same formats (leaving out Video on Demand and PPV) I would use the TiVo. So if TiVo can figure out how to give me a S3 at no charge and then get the monthly fee down to $10 a month and then get an agreement on a standard for SDV so they can deliver all the channels to me in digital, then I think we're good to go.

It just seems like a big uphill battle to me. I'm not saying it's fair, I'm just saying it's uphill.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

pkscout said:


> ... I can get all channels in digital with the TWC DVR, but in NC they don't provide the below 100 channels in digital to CableCard users ...


In a post a while back by bkdtv (I think) (_edit:_ I was wrong, it was btwyx!!!), he had a story about the same problem. For the love of Pete, he could not get them to authorize his s3 for the digital feeds of his local channels.

But that cat would not take no for an answer.

He got a regular digital cable box (no dvr), took it home and authorized the box via the local "call in and get a hit" 800 number. When it loaded the channel map and authorization for that box it also loaded the correct map for his s3 (it "hits" all of a customer's boxes on their account doing it that way).

TaDa! He had his s3 locals on the digital tier, even though they said it could not be done.

YMMV, but there ya go.

Good Luck!

_edit_
It was btwyx, not bkdtv!!!!
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4396294#post4398171


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

kucharsk said:


> I've got an S3 because I'm OTA only


Well, that's the perfect situation for a S3. To be able to pay TiVo and record all the major networks and substation ATSC feeds.

A lot of us aren't that lucky. There's only one ATSC brdcst. in my area, AFAIK. I heard PBS was, but they don't respond to my e-mail inquiries and they have yet to provide info to antennaweb.org. Other than that, everything else is too distant, too low power, or too cheap to pony up for HD right now. So, I rely on D* for CBS and FOX-HD.

A lot of people rely on multichannel for similar reasons, or to get their RSNs, or ESPN or any of the other cable-only channels they enjoy, or because they've got their phone or broadband bundled with the TV service. People like the convenience of one bill, having someone else install/troubleshoot their equipment, and not have to cough up a substantial upfront fee coupled with service charge.

Yeah, a DVR connoisseur might be willing to pony up for S3, but I can see why Rogers made his comments about a "mass market HD" product.


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## booboy97 (Sep 20, 2000)

Costco is already half way there with its current $599 price. Wasn't the original price $799?


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## bcooper367 (Jun 30, 2003)

I have avoided taking the HD plunge because I really only watch TV through Tivo. Although I believe the S3 is pricey, price isn't the only reason I've been waiting.

I'm a big Tivo Desktop user. I archive a lot of shows for my personal collection. I also watch Tivo shows on my Portable Media Player (Creative Zen:W) during the many hours I spend on an airplane.

I don't know that I'll every move to High Def without the ability to archive and copy to a portable media player. I really want HD, but I lose other important functionality to get it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

booboy97 said:


> ... Wasn't the original price $799?


Yes...


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

A lower-end HD DVR would for sure compete with cable co's DVR. I don't see it getting approved by cable labs in a hurry.

There are a few other things in play here, Echo suit would determine how much of a stick Tivo has over cable co and DVR manufacturers, and the results of Comcast Tivo deployment would determine how much motivation cable co may have in joining this lower price HD DVR move. Echo case is in appeal and won't be done with briefings until July, and then we have to wait for judgment, Comcast deployment is on same time frame. Both of these would have huge impact on how Tivo approaches this, so I can understand why they say they will discuss details later in the year.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Cormode said:


> What will the new mass market appeal HD tivo look like. My conjecture is that the new device will essentially be a stripped down S3.
> 
> - Identical PCB (motherboard) design to the S3, but missing various components. A new MB design will no sense if trying to hit a price point, so I suspect the missing parts will include:
> 
> ...


Since theoretically, the S3 can use multistream cablecards, I theorize that they will go with a single cablecard unit, but keep two tuners.

They could have a cable only version, although ATSC may be on the same chip, so you'd only save a connector.

Additionally, they could also easily have available a version that does NO analog. This would be a perfect companion to those who already have a S1 or S2 Tivo and would also be a good choice for those whose cable system simulcasts analog and digital channels and those going full digital in 2008.

The display is too small to read, so losing the display isn't a big deal.

Losing the phone line (and modem) makes sense.

Losing the eSATA may only save a connector.

Free basic service would help amortize their design costs over a larger population while they design the S4.

S4 could be S3 with full DOCSIS modem supporting two way comms, which may or may not make sense with SDV on the horizon.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

yunlin12 said:


> Echo case is in appeal and won't be done with briefings until July, and then we have to wait for judgment,


Roger's comments yesterday mentioned oral argument after briefs taking another couple months. Sounds like ballpark Oct/Nov time frame for decision.


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## Umbrous (Jan 12, 2007)

A mindless post to allow me to use an url....


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## Umbrous (Jan 12, 2007)

A mindless post so I can use a url...


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## Umbrous (Jan 12, 2007)

Oh the price is gonna drop.... look here:

http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/03/12/hdtivo_price_drop/

Amazing how long it has taken, it has been over priced for far too long. I'll give them 200 bucks so long as it has a 1 year warranty, any more and it just doesn't add up compared to cable dvr's rental costs. I've been bitten by an HD Directv receiver before, I paid 450 dollars and the thing died after a year and a half. Never again!


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

the article in the URL you pasted is simply covering the same remarks that were referred to earlier in this thread. they don't substantiate anything.


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## Umbrous (Jan 12, 2007)

bizzy said:


> the article in the URL you pasted is simply covering the same remarks that were referred to earlier in this thread. they don't substantiate anything.


_"We will be highly focused this year on moving forward with a lower-priced, mass appeal High-Def unit, which will allow us to much better participate in the HD television trend," said Rogers in his company's Q4 2006 earnings report._

From what he says, what makes you think that they aren't going to lower the price then?


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

because he didn't say that, especially in the part you quoted?


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## Umbrous (Jan 12, 2007)

bizzy said:


> because he didn't say that, especially in the part you quoted?


Ok you telll me what it means...They going to build a new box? He didn't say that either, but which is more likely?


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

your guess is as good as mine.

my point is that nothing in Roger's statements even imply that they are planning to drop the msrp on the series 3. while he was intentionally vague, its much more likely he was referring to a new product.

he did say "lower-priced, mass appeal High-Def unit". lower priced than what? my only logical guess would be the series 3.


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## Umbrous (Jan 12, 2007)

bizzy said:


> your guess is as good as mine.
> 
> my point is that nothing in Roger's statements even imply that they are planning to drop the msrp on the series 3. while he was intentionally vague, its much more likely he was referring to a new product.
> 
> he did say "lower-priced, mass appeal High-Def unit". lower priced than what? my only logical guess would be the series 3.


Well I disagree on the new product. They could do it, but I don't see how anything less than a series 3 is going to be competitive against what cable companies already have for dvr's. Their only hope is to flood the market with cheap S3's and hope that they pull cable dvr users into long term subscriber fees.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Here's a thread talking about a new box

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=343539


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Umbrous said:


> Oh the price is gonna drop.... look here:
> 
> http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/03/12/hdtivo_price_drop/
> 
> Amazing how long it has taken, it has been over priced for far too long. I'll give them 200 bucks so long as it has a 1 year warranty, any more and it just doesn't add up compared to cable dvr's rental costs. I've been bitten by an HD Directv receiver before, I paid 450 dollars and the thing died after a year and a half. Never again!


$200? Other HD DVRs are the same cost as the S3 but not as good. I have 3 DirecTV HR10-250 units and they work fine. They will be 3 years old soon. if Comcast or DirecTV paid me to use their DVR I wouldn't use it.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Phil Swann is a dope, and is often very anti-Tivo for the sake of being anti-Tivo and nothing else.

He's wrong about the earning call, and dropping the price significantly on the S3. It will drop like all CE devices drop, but not that much that soon.

And where did the Tivo CEO say he was disappointed with S3 sales? I didn't see that or hear that on the earnings call (although I could have missed it).


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## Umbrous (Jan 12, 2007)

AbMagFab said:


> He's wrong about the earning call, and dropping the price significantly on the S3. It will drop like all CE devices drop, but not that much that soon.
> 
> And where did the Tivo CEO say he was disappointed with S3 sales? I didn't see that or hear that on the earnings call (although I could have missed it).


I think the price will drop more than you think. I personally won't pay $399 for a HD Tivo box any more than I'll buy an $800 one. I think they will drop to like $299 for existing customers and probably like $199 for new customers.

I've probably been to Best Buy once or twice a month for the last 3 months and they always have the same opened and returned S3 boxes in there. Dropping the price a 100 bucks isn't going to make the difference.

They missed the boat already in my opinion, HD tv's starting around Xmas were really cheap and have only gotten cheaper. You can buy a 32 inch HDTV for like 600 to 800 bucks on the low end, and there is no way a DVR should cost as much or more than your HDTV. Tivo should have been selling S3's around Xmas for about 300 bucks with a 3 year committment, I think they would have sold alot of them.

Oh and who cares about the earnings call. Tivo is a bad stock. I own a Tivo and think it's a great product but I wouldn't buy their stock. Not yet at least.


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## ScubaCat3 (May 19, 2005)

I don't get why people seem to think the retail stores can just arbitrarily drop the price. They have a certain cost for the item too. The only way they can drop the price by much more than a few bucks would be for Tivo to drop the retail price (and then the retailers would get the difference refunded under their price protection agreement).

I'd probably pull the trigger around $399 though. I have DirecTV, but I'm happy with SDTV. I'd just like to be able to record the HD OTA channels (and no I'm not getting an HR10 for many reasons). I still have 4 prepaid lifetime cards I haven't decided what to do with yet, and this may be a great option for me..


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## IHDB (Mar 9, 2007)

AbMagFab said:


> And where did the Tivo CEO say he was disappointed with S3 sales? I didn't see that or hear that on the earnings call (although I could have missed it).


He didn't (unless I missed something, too) - he said that the S3 sales "met expectations" and that they were looking to have a lower cost product to expand further into the HD market. Combined with Tivo's statements all along that the current version of the S3 was intended for the high end market, it's pretty clear that they'll be releasing a new box at a lower price point to capitalize on people like Umbrous that aren't willing to pay a lot of money for an HD Tivo (and who will get a product that isn't as nice as the high end current S3).

You people that are clamoring for lower prices need to realize that these boxes cost a fair ***** of change to make, and Tivo isn't going to be subsidizing these boxes to get them out the door.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Umbrous said:


> I think the price will drop more than you think. I personally won't pay $399 for a HD Tivo box any more than I'll buy an $800 one. I think they will drop to like $299 for existing customers and probably like $199 for new customers.
> 
> I've probably been to Best Buy once or twice a month for the last 3 months and they always have the same opened and returned S3 boxes in there. Dropping the price a 100 bucks isn't going to make the difference.
> 
> ...


Even The cable company DVR boxes are more expensive. $199 is a little low for an HD DVR. I can't say I've spent more for an HD TiVo than a TV except for the little 26" HD set I have in my closet. Even the little 37" 1080P Westinghouse I just purcashed was $1060.


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## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

Tivo is a badly run business. Look at there business model, they act like thier product is the only alternative. That was true like 5 years ago before cable had their own SD and HD DVR. If they say that the S3 meets there expectations, then their expectations must be very low!


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> Phil Swann is a dope, and is often very anti-Tivo for the sake of being anti-Tivo and nothing else.
> 
> He's wrong about the earning call, and dropping the price significantly on the S3. It will drop like all CE devices drop, but not that much that soon.
> 
> And where did the Tivo CEO say he was disappointed with S3 sales? I didn't see that or hear that on the earnings call (although I could have missed it).


I don't read Swann.

Rogers used the word *disappointed * in the 3/12 JPM presentation when introducing the S3 discussion, as in...

_we were happy and disappointed...that we shipped the S3...but didn't fully participate in the hot HDTV market..._

Not exact quote, but essentially what he said.

http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/questions-for-tivo/#comment-31
http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/rogers-on-march-12/

Audio replay of Rogers' presentation.

CFO Sordello presents today at 4:45 eastern.
http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/tivo-financial-events/


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> _we were happy and disappointed...that we shipped the S3...but didn't fully participate in the hot HDTV market..._


This doesn't contradict what has been said here. The S3 met sales expectations for its target: the high end HD market. But the low end HD market really took off this year and TiVo was disappointed that they hadn't gambled on a low end HD player as well, a mistake they intend to correct.

I haven't seen any statement that TiVo is disappointed in S3 sales.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> *Note that Swann has proven he knows much less than the folks here on numerous occasions over the years. He's wrong again here. *


I was starting to wonder whether I was the only one who noticed this!

His reports & articles are merely transcripts of already reported stories, usually reworder inaccurately, with no acknowledgement of the source and no link whatsoever! What a pointless blog.

Swanni Says ... & Nobody Cares. It ended up being one of the few sites/RSS feeds I actually deleted from my massive list of sites I deem worth following


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Seriously, this Swann fellow has never impressed me... who died and deemed him some sort of "expert?"


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## usnret (Nov 25, 2003)

What do you think the difference would be between the "high end" present S3 and a low cost S3. What could they (Tivo) "take out" or change in the present S3 to reduce the cost from $699 to, say, $299 or $399??


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Fofer said:


> Seriously, this Swann fellow has never impressed me... who died and deemed him some sort of "expert?"


$6.95 for a domain name makes everybody an expert.

-smak-


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

smak said:


> $6.95 for a domain name makes everybody an expert.
> 
> -smak-


... but but but ... he's been quoted SO MANY TIMES in so many great publications!!

He must be GOD!

What's even more embarrassing, judging from his phone number/contact info, is he's local to the DC Metro Area. *sigh*


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## Cormode (Feb 27, 2003)

usnret said:


> What do you think the difference would be between the "high end" present S3 and a low cost S3. What could they (Tivo) "take out" or change in the present S3 to reduce the cost from $699 to, say, $299 or $399??


did you read the thread from the beginning or just in and read the last six posts.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ashu said:


> ... but but but ... he's been quoted SO MANY TIMES in so many great publications!!
> 
> He must be GOD!
> 
> What's even more embarrassing, judging from his phone number/contact info, is he's local to the DC Metro Area. *sigh*


You could be buddies....hang out.....all that kinda stuff.....


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

usnret said:


> What do you think the difference would be between the "high end" present S3 and a low cost S3. What could they (Tivo) "take out" or change in the present S3 to reduce the cost from $699 to, say, $299 or $399??


Seems like they could make an "entry" cable HD box by removing both over-the -air tuners and one of the cable digital tuners, eliminate the display on the front and put in lights like the Series2s, use only a 120GB disk and only component output for HD. This would be a box which could record two SD analog channels or one analog and one digital, either SD or HD channel. It would have one cable card slot and no SATA expansion. It might be called the Series3 Cable DT-1

For an intermediate price, they could keep two cable digital tuners, the front displays and the HDMI interface and ship with a 160GB disk. Basically, it would be a crippled version of the present box. It would have two cable card slots. It might be called the Series3 Cable DT-2. With a disk upgrade, it'd be close to the present Series3, but lack the over-the-air capabilities. I'd like to buy a box like this myself and upgrade the disk.

Note that I've kept two analog tuners in both boxes on the assumption that analog channels are going to be around a long time, one way or another, for most cable customers.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> You could be buddies....hang out.....all that kinda stuff.....


Why bother. Dave Zatz has already promised me some of his CES schwag  Not that I've received any yet ...

Maybe I'll call Swanni!


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Cormode said:


> did you read the thread from the beginning or just in and read the last six posts.


Heh, yeah, I was just gonna say, Cormode's post here is a good start:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4952979&&#post4952979


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## Cormode (Feb 27, 2003)

usnret said:


> What do you think the difference would be between the "high end" present S3 and a low cost S3. What could they (Tivo) "take out" or change in the present S3 to reduce the cost from $699 to, say, $299 or $399??


I think I may rethink my earlier post about what a low priced S3 looks like.
This thread, will chasing a different topic, has some insights

I assume that any new HD device will be a cable card. How could it not be? I do not know cable labs rules for certifying new equipment, but if new HD device must be separately certified updating the motherboard components with newer less expensive parts may make sense.

In that case an entirely new motherboard may be designed.


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

Umbrous said:


> They missed the boat already in my opinion, HD tv's starting around Xmas were really cheap and have only gotten cheaper. You can buy a 32 inch HDTV for like 600 to 800 bucks on the low end, and there is no way a DVR should cost as much or more than your HDTV. Tivo should have been selling S3's around Xmas for about 300 bucks with a 3 year committment, I think they would have sold alot of them.


Like you said - I can get a _cheap_ 32" HDTV for abound that price...I got my Westy for $500...but if I want at least a Samsung, it's more like $800 - $1300, closer to $900+

It's like saying, would you rather get a lowend Moxi/SA box for cheap or spend more for a TiVo...I used my brother's 6412. With the Passport software, it works better than before, but it still isn't TiVo.

The strategy your talking about is - sell it at a loss to gain marketshare, you can make it back with subs (like MS/Sony selling XBOX360/PS3 at a loss to make up for it selling games)...

For me, the S3 was more important for me to get than a more costlier TV...plus the limited time LT transfer helped sway my purchase.

Actually, if I knew I was going to purchase an S3, I might have purchased the 42" Westy monitor for $1000, since it seems I rarely use the tuner in the 3213.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

ciucca said:


> Tivo is a badly run business. Look at there business model, they act like thier product is the only alternative. That was true like 5 years ago before cable had their own SD and HD DVR.


It wasn't true then either. There was ReplayTV.

(I say this as somehow who has never used a ReplayTV, and DID buy the S3 even though I have no HDTV, because of the lifetime transfer offer.)


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

vstone said:


> Since theoretically, the S3 can use multistream cablecards, I theorize that they will go with a single cablecard unit, but keep two tuners.
> 
> They could have a cable only version, although ATSC may be on the same chip, so you'd only save a connector.
> 
> ...


The only additional thing I would expect as a feature to give the new unit "broad HD appeal" would be the ability to work with unscrambled QAM without cable cards installed. This eliminate the cable card hassle for most people - allows the unit to work out of the box without a service call to the cable co - and sticks it to CableLabs for stone walling Tivo for so long.


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## RealityCheck (Feb 15, 2007)

Considering most MSOs don't post their "Clear QAM" frequencies TMK, it would be difficult for TiVo (or Tribune and TitanTV) to post appropriate guide data for them. I don't know of any MSO that transmits "Clear QAM" channels outside the OTA stations. At best, you'll encounter stations bundled in a MSO's "broadcast basic" tier because the FCC mandates them to be unencrypted. TiVo could provide a method to manually map these stations, but who knows what that will entail engineering wise. We'd all be better off contacting the FCC or local congressman. Ask them to mandate "Clear QAM" "extended basic" transmission and appropriate PSIP data support. That's our best bet to avoiding the need for CableCARDs.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DeathRider said:


> Like you said - I can get a _cheap_ 32" HDTV for abound that price...I got my Westy for $500...but if I want at least a Samsung, it's more like $800 - $1300, closer to $900+
> 
> It's like saying, would you rather get a lowend Moxi/SA box for cheap or spend more for a TiVo...I used my brother's 6412. With the Passport software, it works better than before, but it still isn't TiVo.
> 
> ...


The Westy seems Pretty good for the price. I just got a 37" 1080P Westy for $1000. Now I can move my 32" HP 768P set to my bedroom and dump my 16 year old 32" Toshiba. That sucker is heavy, over 150lbs. The Westy is working great with the S3.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

RealityCheck said:


> Considering most MSOs don't post their "Clear QAM" frequencies TMK, it would be difficult for TiVo (or Tribune and TitanTV) to post appropriate guide data for them. I don't know of any MSO that transmits "Clear QAM" channels outside the OTA stations. At best, you'll encounter stations bundled in a MSO's "broadcast basic" tier because the FCC mandates them to be unencrypted. TiVo could provide a method to manually map these stations, but who knows what that will entail engineering wise. We'd all be better off contacting the FCC or local congressman. Ask them to mandate "Clear QAM" "extended basic" transmission and appropriate PSIP data support. That's our best bet to avoiding the need for CableCARDs.


Tivo could always create its own database of various cable company mappings. I mean we are really only talking about local chanel unscrambled QAM so it is not that many channels, as you correctly pointed out. Then when the Tivo dials in to configure, it pulls the mapping off of the Tivo server for the appropriate cable system. For $14.95/month/Tivo I think Tivo can afford the manual labor this would require.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

DeathRider said:


> Like you said - I can get a _cheap_ 32" HDTV for abound that price...I got my Westy for $500...but if I want at least a Samsung, it's more like $800 - $1300, closer to $900+


Well if you are going to buy the cheap TV you need the $800 S3 to do a good job scaling your SD up to 1080i for you.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

i would definitely buy one for $399


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

How about $99?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I'd buy that for a dollar!


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Buy that DVR!


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Umbrous said:


> They missed the boat already in my opinion, HD tv's starting around Xmas were really cheap and have only gotten cheaper. You can buy a 32 inch HDTV for like 600 to 800 bucks on the low end, and there is no way a DVR should cost as much or more than your HDTV.


Why? You can buy a receiver that costs a lot less or a lot more than an HDTV. The same is true of amps, speakers, media cabinets, remote controls, lighting controls, speaker cables, etc. Not everyone has your particular set of values. Some people pay $1000 for a power cord for their amp.

TiVo wanted to make a premium product, and that's what they did.



> Tivo should have been selling S3's around Xmas for about 300 bucks with a 3 year committment, I think they would have sold alot of them.


Yes, they would have sold a lot of them. And they would have lost money on every single one -- money they would never recover. It would be simpler to just set fire to a big pile of hundred dollar bills.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

parzec said:


> Tivo could always create its own database of various cable company mappings. I mean we are really only talking about local chanel unscrambled QAM so it is not that many channels, as you correctly pointed out. Then when the Tivo dials in to configure, it pulls the mapping off of the Tivo server for the appropriate cable system. For $14.95/month/Tivo I think Tivo can afford the manual labor this would require.


The mappings can sometimes change daily. Also they are head-end based, which are not necessarily zip-code based.

I think you would get farther arguing that FCC should force MSOs to use PSIP to properly map all their channels so clear-QAM equipment with reasonable use experience.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Not surprising to hear that sales are slow at $600+.

Now, if TiVo would offer Series 3 @ $400, and Lifetime Service at an exhorbitant price just to make it available again even if not a popular option, they'd have all their sales bases covered.

I use my second Series 3 ($610 + $499 for Lifetime) w/o cable cards just for OTA and unencrypted digital cable. Works great!


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Why was lifetime $499?


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

300 for a used unit or Lifetime off someone's dead unit, and 199 for the transfer (just guessing)


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

sfhub said:


> I think you would get farther arguing that FCC should force MSOs to use PSIP to properly map all their channels so clear-QAM equipment with reasonable use experience.


The FCC already requires cable companies to pass through and generate PSIP properly in a way that would allow clear-QAM equipment to properly map channels with a reasonable user experience.


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## Daven (Jun 8, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Note that Swann has proven he knows much less than the folks here on numerous occasions over the years. He's wrong again here.


I remember an article Swann wrote a couple of years ago where he spoke of the on off switch on a Tivo. This guy shoots from the hip, and knows absolutely nothing about what he is talking about.

DaveN


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Daven said:


> I remember an article Swann wrote a couple of years ago where he spoke of the on off switch on a Tivo. This guy shoots from the hip, and knows absolutely nothing about what he is talking about.
> 
> DaveN


We may have to report him - I thought DC had stricted gun laws? Although they are about to be repealed, IIRC.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

dt_dc said:


> The FCC already requires cable companies to pass through and generate PSIP properly in a way that would allow clear-QAM equipment to properly map channels with a reasonable user experience.


It can be greatly improved.

First, many MSOs do not properly have this setup for all the channels. There are numerous reports of some channels being mapped while others are not, despite the OTA channels having the PSIP info.

Second, the same mechanism can be used for the digital simulcast channels so limited basic digital simulcast channels can be selected in a consistent manner.

Does the FCC require PSIP to be generated for the cable digital simulcast channels? I was under the impression they were only required to pass through the OTA PSIP. Maybe you are saying "generate" in the sense that the OTA PSIP is generated using the cable equivalent?

If it really was the case that whatever the FCC requires *actually led to consistent mapping* of clear-QAM channels then the requirement for CableCARD for even limited basic S3 installs could have a chance of being eliminated. That's not what I see today.

Maybe the problem is not FCC rules but the enforcement of FCC rules?


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## cdp1276 (Mar 25, 2003)

Fofer said:


> They need to drop the price, and they need to incorporate an answer for SDV. I took the gamble and bought one, but wouldn't do it again until I heard something definitive... (I'm with TimeWarner.)


I'm with you on that one as well, in addition it seems unfair to market a product with all kinds of features (eSata port, MRV, TivoToGo, etc...) and not have them enabled. I could see it if you were buying a car and didn't select those options. But marketing a product with features that could or might be enabled later but no idea when is not a great approach to building loyality.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

dt_dc said:


> The FCC already requires cable companies to pass through and generate PSIP properly in a way that would allow clear-QAM equipment to properly map channels with a reasonable user experience.


 Well they are doing a very lousy job of enforcing this regulation then... I have yet to see any PSIP information on any clear QAM channel in my cable company lineup, even for the re-transmitted terrestrial broadcast channels and not to mention all the digital simulcast channels in the clear. I inquired once about why at minimum the HD local re-transmissions don't have PSIP. The answer was that they are setup to pass through PSIP but the source of those channels they receive are not the OTA transmissions and don't contain PSIP information to begin with.
One side effect of missing PSIP information is my Fusion HD tuner card (and S3 before I had cablecards) does not have "friendly" channel names and are displayed as RF-subchannel format. I do have a spreadsheet mapping out all the RF subchannels to the real channel names but would be much nicer to not have to do that, not to mention that when things move around I have to update the spreadsheet.


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

Costco.com has the S3 for $599 shipped with $150 off coupon. No rebates required.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Nowhere in their (online) advertising or website descriptions do they claim all those features DO work on an S3.

They ARE guilty of occasional omission on radio ads flaunting those features by not clarifying the S3 (currently) lacks the features.


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## RealityCheck (Feb 15, 2007)

The FCC only mandates passing PSIP data unaltered for OTA stations. There are no requirements to distribute PSIP for other digital simulcasts offered in "Clear QAM". 

Are MSOs actually passing OTA PSIP data? If so, why can't the S3 properly utilize the PSIP data without CableCARDs?


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Very few MSOs intentionally 'strip' PSIP data - their equipment sometimes passes it, and at other times it strips it.

And if the QAM assignments change frequently/occasionally, you'd have to tune & search for channels evertime they vanished!


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

ashu said:


> Very few MSOs intentionally 'strip' PSIP data - their equipment sometimes passes it, and at other times it strips it.
> 
> And if the QAM assignments change frequently/occasionally, you'd have to tune & search for channels evertime they vanished!


I don't think my head-end is intentionally stripping PSIP data, but other head-ends around me pass the OTA PSIP for all OTA (rebroadcast) channels, while mine only has PSIP for half of them. Most likely it is incompetence and/or configuration error but the net effect is the same. I've tried complaining but it is a full time job to find the right person in the bureaucracy to first understand what you are talking about and then schedule the right person to fix it. The few times I called they wanted to schedule a truck roll.

*If* we could reliably get PSIP data, then they could be some convention that these changes happen within some window let's say 2-4am and TiVo can do a rescan at 5am every night.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Fofer said:


> Why was lifetime $499?


$199 for the VIP transfer plus $299 for the original Lifetime Service which enabled the transfer. (I was off a buck!)

TiVo doesn't make long term profits from Lifetime Service but Lifetime still would bring in decent revenue from the few people who'd opt for it at a high price.

I wouldn't own TiVo if it wasn't for Lifetime Service. Because of Lifetime Service I own 5 (2 Series 3's, one with CableCARDS) from which TiVo got Lifetime Service Fees of $1893. Plus, I've got a Lifetime Service Gift Card which sold for double TiVo's $299 price that expires this time next year.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

TiVo Troll said:


> TiVo doesn't make long term profits from Lifetime Service but Lifetime still would bring in decent revenue from the few people who'd opt for it at a high price.


That assumes you know the long-term business model doesn't it?

As an advertising unit, the more active users, the more value.

As a consumer base for services like Amazon unbox the more active users, the more value especially if they are in the demographic that can afford S3 lifetime.

I think some of these notions that lifetime is a lose proposition for TiVo over time, which may have been valid for modem-based S1s, are not necessarily valid for broadband-based S2 and S3s regardless of subscription.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

TiVo Troll said:


> $199 for the VIP transfer plus $299 for the original Lifetime Service which enabled the transfer. (I was off a buck!)


Ah. I hadn't considered the cost of lifetime service on the previous box when looking at the total cost of my current S3. Because I used it on the previous box, and got my money's worth out of it on the previous box.


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## Jeff Lam (Sep 5, 2003)

The only reason I haven't jumped in with both feet is because of the high price.


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

RealityCheck said:


> I don't know of any MSO that transmits "Clear QAM" channels outside the OTA stations.


Well, just so you know, RCN does (at least in Ma) 

They just added National Geographic HD in clear QAM :up: (I'll have t go home and double check on this one)

I also get ESPN HD, FSN HD, NESN HD...I also get 2 Cinemax channels, as well as 2 Encore channels 

I'm guessing the digital music stations don't count


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Know then that they do it out of extreme ignorance. The louder you publicize it, the sooner it'll be taken away  Shhh & enjoy it!


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## Ariela (Dec 14, 2005)

TiVo Troll said:


> $199 for the VIP transfer plus $299 for the original Lifetime Service which enabled the transfer. (I was off a buck!)
> 
> TiVo doesn't make long term profits from Lifetime Service but Lifetime still would bring in decent revenue from the few people who'd opt for it at a high price.
> 
> I wouldn't own TiVo if it wasn't for Lifetime Service. Because of Lifetime Service I own 5 (2 Series 3's, one with CableCARDS) from which TiVo got Lifetime Service Fees of $1893. Plus, I've got a Lifetime Service Gift Card which sold for double TiVo's $299 price that expires this time next year.


I have lifetime programming (LP) on both my S1 and S2. Do you know if I can carry over my LP to a new unit? I also wonder what happens to the LP if either unit gives out.

Thanks for your help!


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

TWC in Myrtle Beach broadcasts TNTHD and Discovery HD in the clear. They also broadcast A&E HD, MHD, and (Ta-Ta) GEM TV (jewelry shopping channel) but they're via SDV and they're frequencies jump around.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Ariela said:


> I have lifetime programming (LP) on both my S1 and S2. Do you know if I can carry over my LP to a new unit? I also wonder what happens to the LP if either unit gives out.
> 
> Thanks for your help!


Lifetime is only associated with the unit. Dead unit = Expired Lifetime!

Every now & then TiVo offers a way to carry Lifetime forward onto a new device (they did it for the last 4 months to a Series 3, for $199) - but the most recent offer just expired.


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## fujishig (Jan 29, 2004)

gamo62 said:


> Costco.com has the S3 for $599 shipped with $150 off coupon. No rebates required.


Interestingly enough, I just got a RewardZone coupon with my latest Best Buy Reward Zone cert for 200 off a Series 3, also making it 599 at Best Buy.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

Jeff Lam said:


> The only reason I haven't jumped in with both feet is because of the high price.


That's the same reason I don't drive a Porsche. That doesn't mean that Porsche has to sell one for $10K.

.../Ed


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

...or $399. I saw a recent poll that a lot of people would buy a Porsche if it were offered for $399...

...that means that it'll be available for that price soon, right?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I saw a recent poll that said pretty much anyone on the planet would agree to drive a Porsche if they were paid to do so.

Can't wait for the car maker to roll out _that_ plan!


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## raghu1111 (Nov 16, 2005)

Please cool down you wise guys. I would be nice not to have useless posts. excuse me for this one. Thanks.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

They're "useless posts" because we disagree? Because the analogy succinctly demonstrates how silly (or "useless") we find much of this discussion to be?

Welcome to TCF.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

As for requesting to be excused - you can already do that. You choose what threads you read, not us


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## avpman (Dec 28, 2005)

gamo62 said:


> Costco.com has the S3 for $599 shipped with $150 off coupon. No rebates required.


$599 is the net price AFTER the $150 coupon. It's not $599 less $150.


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## Ariela (Dec 14, 2005)

ashu said:


> Lifetime is only associated with the unit. Dead unit = Expired Lifetime!
> 
> Every now & then TiVo offers a way to carry Lifetime forward onto a new device (they did it for the last 4 months to a Series 3, for $199) - but the most recent offer just expired.


 Thanks for the reply!

I will watch for the next offer that allows me to transfer my lifetime programming to a new unit.


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