# Currently watching the FCC Meeting Regarding CableCards



## Airhead315 (Jun 11, 2009)

Everyone knows that the FCC broadband plan contains elements regarding CableCard rule changes. I am in the process of watching the open commision meeting right now, and they have just approved the order. Here are some bullet points.

Things they ARE changing:
1. Forces Cable Companies to allow self-install of CableCards
2. Cable Companies will be required to provide, clearly, the cost of cablecards
3. FCC will launch a website to allow cable subscribers to submit complaints regarding non-compliance by Cable Companies
4. Rules regarding Cable Companies requirement to provide the same level of service to CableCard subscribers as to those with leased set-top boxes.

Things they have removed from the order:
1. No longer contains requirements for IP based SDV solution


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

interesting. so what else about SDV is in there? any standards or rules on tuning adapters and such?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Airhead315 said:


> Everyone knows that the FCC broadband plan contains elements regarding CableCard rule changes. I am in the process of watching the open commision meeting right now, and they have just approved the order. Here are some bullet points.
> 
> Things they ARE changing:
> 1. Forces Cable Companies to allow self-install of CableCards
> ...


All good things. Sorry to hear about the IP based SDV. Anything on the CCI Byte?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

It definitely looks good, but we will have to wait to see the wording. I don't know how long that takes.


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## pL86 (Oct 11, 2009)

I fail to see why this is a victory for consumers in general or Tivo users specifically. The most significant item - IP tuning - was removed. The approved changes are well and good but they're minor and none have any potential to break the cable companies stranglehold on equipment. I'm sure the cable companies are very pleased with this result. Whoopee - we can self-install our Cablecards now and get an itemized breakdown of the Cablecard cost on our bill (which incidentally, already appears on my TWC NYC bill anyway).

It appears the FCC rolled over as usual and approved relatively trivial regulations while passing up the opportunity for genuine reform.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

So what does:

"Rules regarding Cable Companies requirement to provide the same level of service to CableCard subscribers as to those with leased set-top boxes."​Mean? To me it would mean that if the cable company's leased set-top box received 125 channels then someone using a cable card in a non-cable company STB would also have to get the same 125 channels. Isn't that what a IP based SDV solution was supposed to get consumers?

Thanks,


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## ghuido (May 9, 2007)

Rule 4 looks interesting does it require some methods for us to get VOD ?


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

Airhead315 said:


> Everyone knows that the FCC broadband plan contains elements regarding CableCard rule changes. I am in the process of watching the open commision meeting right now, and they have just approved the order. Here are some bullet points.
> 
> Things they ARE changing:
> 1. Forces Cable Companies to allow self-install of CableCards
> ...


Where are you watching this? Is it streaming or on C-SPAN?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Until we see the final wording I don't think there is any way to know. It could be the issue where people with cablecards in some cases pay more due to bundling when they return STBs. It could just be a general overall requirement with no real specifics. The brief statement leaves a lot to be desired since does that refer to SDV, VOD, PPV or other things?

I think they are also supposed to set up a consumer site which allows you to complain.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

The self-install thing is a big deal. Charter just came out to put a CC in my new Premiere box and they charged me $30 for the privelege of popping a card into the box and calling in a few numbers. They also just notified us that they are increasing install fees to $50. So if I ever want to upgrade my S3 box to a premiere, it'd cost me $50 on top of the box's cost. Outrageous.

I'm glad to hear that cable companies will be forced to let users just pop these things in and manage them themselves.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Raj said:


> Where are you watching this? Is it streaming or on C-SPAN?


It is already over. It was on http://reboot.fcc.gov/live. I don't know if they will post the video later or not.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Airhead315 said:


> 4. Rules regarding Cable Companies requirement to provide the same level of service to CableCard subscribers as to those with leased set-top boxes.


My understanding is that, back in the NPRM, they were considering a rule whereby leased boxes were to be issued without cablecards installed or paired, and that had to be done in the customer's premesis, like any other Cable Card device.

My mind also sees that as the Cablecard box must also have access to just all the linear programmed channels a leased box can access, including SDV (possibly with a tuning adapter).


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Doesn't sound too bad although FCC needs to get ahead of the ball not react 3 years later to where the ball was.

Wish they'd address the copy byte. No reason you shouldn't be able to copy shows from Tivo to Tivo. 

Pirates are just going to hack this anyway so that copy byte is not stopping them. Just us folks that want a no hassle solution to watching a show in another room.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

DancnDude said:


> The self-install thing is a big deal. Charter just came out to put a CC in my new Premiere box and they charged me $30 for the privelege of popping a card into the box and calling in a few numbers. They also just notified us that they are increasing install fees to $50. So if I ever want to upgrade my S3 box to a premiere, it'd cost me $50 on top of the box's cost. Outrageous.
> 
> I'm glad to hear that cable companies will be forced to let users just pop these things in and manage them themselves.


I agree that this is a big deal, however it doesn't prevent them from having a self install fee to cover increased support costs...(i.e. The phone call.) unless the language states that they can't charge more to install a cable card than one of their own devices. We should be so lucky.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

The other catch is if the kept in the portion about if they allow self installs of STBs. If cable companies don't they probably won't be required to do it for CableCARDs. At the same thing this may leave loopholes where the companies might be able to say they only allow STBs to be installed as replacements so new installs may still require truck rolls. We really have to wait and see what the final wording looks like along with when it goes into effect.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I don't understand what IP based SDV is. Is that different than what I have now?

The " same level of service to CableCard subscribers as to those with leased set-top boxes" is interesting. I wonder if it means you could use your TiVo to access on-demand stuff, purchase PPV stuff directly, etc.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> I agree that this is a big deal, however it doesn't prevent them from having a self install fee to cover increased support costs...(i.e. The phone call.) unless the language states that they can't charge more to install a cable card than one of their own devices. We should be so lucky.


You mean like how the cable companies will probably add the CableCARD fee without decreasing the cost to lease hardware and then blame it on the FCC?


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> I don't understand what IP based SDV is. Is that different than what I have now?
> 
> The " same level of service to CableCard subscribers as to those with leased set-top boxes" is interesting. I wonder if it means you could use your TiVo to access on-demand stuff, purchase PPV stuff directly, etc.


Basically instead of using the tuning adapter to talk back to the headend, it will be over the TiVo's ethernet port either over the internet or through a cable modem.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> I agree that this is a big deal, however it doesn't prevent them from having a self install fee to cover increased support costs...(i.e. The phone call.)


I'd be glad if they billed me the 10 cents it cost them for a CSR to enter a few numbers in a computer instead of the $28 install charge for a truck roll.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Airhead315 said:


> Everyone knows that the FCC broadband plan contains elements regarding CableCard rule changes. I am in the process of watching the open commision meeting right now, and they have just approved the order. Here are some bullet points.
> 
> Things they ARE changing:
> 1. Forces Cable Companies to allow self-install of CableCards
> ...


Those are all good things! (except the removal)

Yay! FCC!


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## ghuido (May 9, 2007)

How long do you think before Large MSO (Comcast, TW, Cox) start allowing the self-install of the Cable Cards?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I havent seen anything with the date this goes into effect.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

To quote davis freeberg on twitter.

CableCARDs are a free install and can be ordered at 1900CABLECARD $75 per call.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Raj said:


> I'd be glad if they billed me the 10 cents it cost them for a CSR to enter a few numbers in a computer instead of the $28 install charge for a truck roll.


You know it won't be like that. They can claim increased costs by saying that a self install requires more follow up and ties up a person that would otherwise be working on sales. Basically they can claim *anything* to justify a charge and the FCC can't do anything unless there is language preventing it.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> To quote davis freeberg on twitter.
> 
> CableCARDs are a free install and can be ordered at 1900CABLECARD $75 per call.


Is that a one time fee, with no monthly cost? If so I'm more ok with it than if it's a 75.00 up front with monthly charges.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> You know it won't be like that. They can claim increased costs by saying that a self install requires more follow up and ties up a person that would otherwise be working on sales. Basically they can claim *anything* to justify a charge and the FCC can't do anything unless there is language preventing it.


No doubt. I'm just saying that the "support costs" argument from cable companies is largely bogus.

Maybe if they just made everything work properly then there wouldn't be any issues with support costs.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> Is that a one time fee, with no monthly cost? If so I'm more ok with it than if it's a 75.00 up front with monthly charges.


Of course not. I know some people commented they should be able to buy equipment, but it looks like the FCC ignored that part. I would buy CableCARDs if I could if they were reasonable.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> Of course not. I know some people commented they should be able to buy equipment, but it looks like the FCC ignored that part. I would buy CableCARDs if I could if they were reasonable.


:down::down::down:


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## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

I listed to most of the meeting today and noticed that AllVid received quite a few mentions. Removal of the IP backchannel requirement would indicate that the FCC isn't going to mandate any major infrastructure changes on the video providers until AllVid comes around in two years (if the schedule holds). The rule changes passed today are all procedural and won't require any hardware changes by the operators.

Hopefully this is a sign that the FCC will push hard on AllVid and we'll see some more information on where they are going with it in the next couple of months. One of the commissioners mentioned that AllVid will be the topic of discussion at meetings in the not too distant future.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

One thing I am also curious about is the new DTA's they will be allowed to roll out. If these support VOD/PPV, it might be worth complaining to see if we can get free ones to access VOD similar to how they offered DTAs free during the digital transition.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

"One way HD boxes without CableCARDs are no longer forbidden and they don't require IP interfaces." 

Odd because this sounds good for MRV DVR setups like the one FIOS offers, but is something Tivo wouldn't be able to offer afaik. 

Therefore wouldn't this conflict the "same level of service" requirement?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Tivo could do it if they streamed but I dont think this is that. I think this is about the new DTAs. engadgethd has their review up also.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

One new good thing about SDV, despite people having to suffer the boxes, is that 4 streams/tuners is apparently a new requirement, though I think moto already covered that.

CableCard self-installation is a good thing. Doesn't seem to be too many other significant changes until AllVid is figured out.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Hats off to everyone who took the time to file comments. We may not have gotten everything that we wanted, but we were at least heard. 

"SDV is an innovative technology with a number of benefits, and we do not wish to discourage its deployment. The record is replete, however, with comments from consumers who have had negative experiences using tuning
adapters to access switched digital channels on their retail CableCARD devices."


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Unfortunately it looks like 9 months before self-installs are mandatory if they already allow self installs of some type, and 12 months if they don't per the engadgethd post.

My other big problem still is they did nothing to address the disparity of VOD. Retail devices still don't have access which for many people is a huge issue.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

innocentfreak said:


> Unfortunately it looks like 9 months before self-installs are mandatory if they already allow self installs of some type, and 12 months if they don't per the engadgethd post


It ought to be the other way around. Reward good behavior and punish bad behavior.

Besides, this would give the FCC feedback sooner if cablecos such as Comcast and Time Warner intend to continue to drag their feet and deter consumers from installing their own CableCards. Let the FCC smack 'em upside the head sooner if they continue to screw around with consumers.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

JimboG said:


> It ought to be the other way around. Reward good behavior and punish bad behavior.
> 
> Besides, this would give the FCC feedback sooner if cablecos such as Comcast and Time Warner intend to continue to drag their feet and deter consumers from installing their own CableCards. Let the FCC smack 'em upside the head sooner if they continue to screw around with consumers.


I somewhat agree but it makes sense why they have to do it this way as far as who has the shorter timeframe. The companies who already allow a form of self-install have a system in place for quicker roll-out, personally I think 6 months would be more appropriate if not less. The other companies have no option for self-install so they don't have a method currently setup to order and ship equipment to customers which would obviously require more work. This one should me 9 minimum.

Here is the FCC argument


> We conclude that the best means of assuring the development of a retail market for
> navigation devices is to require cable operators to allow subscribers to self-install CableCARDs. We
> believe cable operators should have time to train staff and develop more robust customer support
> infrastructures and procedures, and provide nine months to comply for any operators that allow
> ...


Also it looks like the companies have 9 months to get SDV up to 4 tuners and working appropriately.
From the FCC PDF



> To address the problems with tuning adapters identified by commenters, the satisfactory
> access standard will require cable operators to ensure that retail devices are able to tune at least as many
> switched digital channels as that operator's most sophisticated operator-supplied set-top box or four
> simultaneous channels, whichever is greater.51.Further, the satisfactory access standard will require the
> ...


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Seems like those times could have been cut in half, but anything is better than what we've had.

Here's another important change:



> In addition to empowering cable subscribers to install CableCARDs, we will also make it easier for consumers to file complaints relating to cable customer premises equipment (including CableCARDs, tuning adapters, and set-top boxes) with the Commission by adding a specific reference to CableCARDs and other customer premises equipment to the process for filing complaints on our website.100 If a cable operator chooses to provide satisfactory access to SDV channels for retail devices by means of customer-premises equipment such as a tuning adapter, this process will encompass complaints relating to such equipment as well as complaints relating to CableCARDs. We will strictly enforce our navigation device rules in order to ensure proper support for CableCARD devices.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Just added it to my signature lol

http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm?sid=&id=d1e650


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Also it looks like the companies have 9 months to get SDV up to 4 tuners and working appropriately.
> From the FCC PDF


Who proposed the 4 tuner requirement? TiVo or Ceton corp?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I believe TiVo was the one behind the 4 tuner TA support. For Ceton it isn't as big of a deal since PCs have so many extra USB ports.

http://www.missingremote.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5207&Itemid=1

http://www.cablelabs.com/specifications/ecns/opencablehw/TRIF-N-10.1574-3.doc


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> Further, the satisfactory access standard will require the ability to tune and maintain the desired channel as long as it is being watched or recorded, and to do so reliably.


Wonder if that will cover disabling of suggestions on TiVos using a TA?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> Wonder if that will cover disabling of suggestions on TiVos using a TA?


I am not that familiar with TAs since I don't use them. I know they have problems with suggestions, but don't know exactly what that is. How do they disable suggestions?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> I am not that familiar with TAs since I don't use them. I know they have problems with suggestions, but don't know exactly what that is. How do they disable suggestions?


On TWC at least, my THD would not record suggestions when connected to the TA. I believe that behavior is still happening and has not been corrected, but I'm not certain since I ditched digital cable in favor of MRV.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

So did you just find suggestions not recording or your units locked? I am just wondering if it will be something difficult to complain about being that suggestions don't show in the to do list. Since they aren't in the to do list, you can't point to it as something that should have recorded and didn't because the TA locked up. 

My guess is by the wording it would be covered. The issue will be proving something didn't record unless you have bad recordings or something to show it tried to record and failed.


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## PoobBubes (Jun 30, 2010)

Here is a Washington Post article on the subject:

FCC fixes CableCard rules; CableCard market likely to stay broken


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I think 9 months or more to be able to handle something the cable company has had for quite some time is just laughable.

this was supposed to be the FCC coming down on cable companies for their poor performance with cable cards as they went on to fix the real issue that the FCC had been tasked with last century

"At this point, you don't need the fingers of one hand to count your CableCard options: There are TiVo's DVRs, Moxi's lesser-known recorders, Ceton's computer add-on ... and then nothing, as far as I can tell."

PS - the Washington Post article POed me on talking about monthly fee but never mentioning lifetime service option. You can pay the cable company 20$ a month or buy a TiVo for 500$ and knock the cable charge down to 2$ a month. Yes - I know the cable monthly fee will vary - this is just an example that is close to what I would pay


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> So did you just find suggestions not recording or your units locked? I am just wondering if it will be something difficult to complain about being that suggestions don't show in the to do list. Since they aren't in the to do list, you can't point to it as something that should have recorded and didn't because the TA locked up.
> 
> My guess is by the wording it would be covered. The issue will be proving something didn't record unless you have bad recordings or something to show it tried to record and failed.


I noticed it because I had deleted all my suggestions on a lark. Don't know why I did it, maybe eveything in the suggestion list offended me.  For whatever reason, two weeks passed without recording any suggestions. Normally I wouldn't have noticed, but we had forgotten to schedule a show and was checking the suggestion list on all our TiVos. When I saw that one didn't have any I became suspicious and started looking into it. Turned out the TWC/THD/TA combo was preventing them from recording.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

PoobBubes said:


> Here is a Washington Post article on the subject:
> 
> FCC fixes CableCard rules; CableCard market likely to stay broken


The dudes comment at the end about wanting to record and watch on other devices is telling. He either doesn't know about or isn't affected by the CCI byte. Also no mention of that in the article. Seems like the cable companies are flying under the radar on that one for now.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> The dudes comment at the end about wanting to record and watch on other devices is telling. He either doesn't know about or isn't affected by the CCI byte. Also no mention of that in the article. Seems like the cable companies are flying under the radar on that one for now.


I can't read the article at work for some reason, but everyone but TiVo streams so unless he had used a TiVo he like most people would be ignorant of it being an issue. Even Media Center which can copy and move shows, is able to move the recordings from the main PC to a server. Of course only the main PC can still watch the recording.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> I can't read the article at work for some reason, but everyone but TiVo streams so unless he had used a TiVo he like most people would be ignorant of it being an issue. Even Media Center which can copy and move shows, is able to move the recordings from the main PC to a server. Of course only the main PC can still watch the recording.


he used a TiVo 
here was his lament
"I think what people want is to be able to record content from cable, the internet or their computers and then convert them for other devices like iPods, iPads or DVDs. We want to watch our shows anywhere and how we want."

no real thought given to the fact someone has to pay to create the stuff in the first place. I might bicker it is typical consumerists perspective that does not take the content owner into account at all. Most telling was the use of "our shows" as if we actually own them.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> he used a TiVo
> here was his lament
> "I think what people want is to be able to record content from cable, the internet or their computers and then convert them for other devices like iPods, iPads or DVDs. We want to watch our shows anywhere and how we want."
> 
> no real thought given to the fact someone has to pay to create the stuff in the first place. I might bicker it is typical consumerists perspective that does not take the content owner into account at all. Most telling was the use of "our shows" as if we actually own them.


LOL! I would argue that you pay for the right to view the performance by subscribing to cable or satellite and where you view the performance is irrelevant. We've already been given the right to time and place shift content with the AHRA and the betamax decision. It's just that content providers are using the DMCA to deny us those rights, not because it's illegal to do what we want to do, but because it's illegal to circumvent the CP.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Given the fact that a digital channel uses only 10% of the bandwidth of an analog channel, why would the FCC allow SDV in the first place? It seems like the cable companies are recovering massive amounts of bandwidth with the removal of most of the analog channels.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> LOL! I would argue that you pay for the right to view the performance by subscribing to cable or satellite and where you view the performance is irrelevant. We've already been given the right to time and place shift content with the AHRA and the betamax decision. It's just that content providers are using the DMCA to deny us those rights, not because it's illegal to do what we want to do, but because it's illegal to circumvent the CP.


I am with you that the content owner should get to set the copy protection.
I do think cable companies have a legit business need to keep a lid on how easy it would be to pull shows off and then hand them off to other folks who may not get that tier of service.
Obviously allowing MRV between same account DVRs would not let that happen


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> Given the fact that a digital channel uses only 10% of the bandwidth of an analog channel, why would the FCC allow SDV in the first place? It seems like the cable companies are recovering massive amounts of bandwidth with the removal of most of the analog channels.


increased broadband pipes for more internet innovation is also something the FCC wants to promote.
efficient use of the pipe to my house is a good thing, the cable companies have just put in play some really crappy technology to do that is the actual problem. The FCC should take allvid out of their hands and let a standards body get the right technical people together to create the standard just like they did for most everything else broadcast related. This whole letting the cable companies keep screwing it up is simple unacceptable


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> he used a TiVo
> here was his lament
> "I think what people want is to be able to record content from cable, the internet or their computers and then convert them for other devices like iPods, iPads or DVDs. We want to watch our shows anywhere and how we want."
> 
> no real thought given to the fact someone has to pay to create the stuff in the first place. I might bicker it is typical consumerists perspective that does not take the content owner into account at all. Most telling was the use of "our shows" as if we actually own them.


If he only had one, he might not have tried to transfer a show since he probably didn't try TiVo Desktop much less KMTTG.

I agree with his lament and I agree with Stormspace. It is also difficult when you used to be able to do this somewhat with VHS tapes and only the digital switch disallowed this for many people. Also as services like Netflix and Hulu expand and allow people more and more access to what they want when they want it where they want it, it makes you question cable and the content providers choices.

For example, I was having a debate with the FiOS rep where I said if they went copy once and I was no longer able to watch what I want where I want as long as I recorded a show I would probably drop FiOS immediately and switch to Hulu+Netflix. His response to me was do you know how to save Hulu content? I of course told him I wouldn't need to since I would already be able to access it from all my devices which is something FiOS would now be blocking. I think he then repiled with something like oh and that was the end of it.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I am with you that the content owner should get to set the copy protection.
> I do think cable companies have a legit business need to keep a lid on how easy it would be to pull shows off and then hand them off to other folks who may not get that tier of service.
> Obviously allowing MRV between same account DVRs would not let that happen


If you follow my Verizon link for voting for self install, there is an idea on there that the Verizon rep said he is looking into. This would be the ability to send recordings to other people on their network. Someone pointed out how the content providers would never allow it. He had a couple solutions on how they would be able to get permission.

Of course if TiVo tried this, it would never be allowed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> Also as services like Netflix and Hulu expand and allow people more and more access to what they want when they want it where they want it, it makes you question cable and the content providers choices.


good point and I am all for legit business providing this instant access from a variety of devices. I hope they eat the cable companies lunch and move their cheese.

The cable companies should indeed be working out how I can watch broadcast TV on my iPod or smartphone or laptop or whatever versus limiting my experience. I stay on extended basic service specifically because the service is simply not worth the extra money. I just balance that against the idea of Joe neighbor being able to record say Tru Blood and hand that out versus his neighbors signing up for HBO as well.
But I use Netflix instead to get Tru Blood and the netflix model is indeed the model to copy right now if you want to be ready for the next decade


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## wisny (Sep 6, 2010)

Stormspace said:


> I noticed it because I had deleted all my suggestions on a lark. Don't know why I did it, maybe eveything in the suggestion list offended me.  For whatever reason, two weeks passed without recording any suggestions. Normally I wouldn't have noticed, but we had forgotten to schedule a show and was checking the suggestion list on all our TiVos. When I saw that one didn't have any I became suspicious and started looking into it. Turned out the TWC/THD/TA combo was preventing them from recording.


How did you get them to start recording again? We ran out of space on our drive, so all the suggestions got deleted. We've since added an Expander, so not there's space, but there have been no suggestions recorded. They are turned on in the recording options.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

wisny said:


> How did you get them to start recording again? We ran out of space on our drive, so all the suggestions got deleted. We've since added an Expander, so not there's space, but there have been no suggestions recorded. They are turned on in the recording options.


Sounds like you may want to use my sig link


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## wisny (Sep 6, 2010)

innocentfreak said:


> Sounds like you may want to use my sig link


Yea? Okay, I will. :up: But, can you tell me how to make them record again, so I can articulate what the problem with the TA was?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

wisny said:


> Yea? Okay, I will. :up: But, can you tell me how to make them record again, so I can articulate what the problem with the TA was?


I would file it and just say they still don't work. I don't know honestly, could always send a message to one of the TiVo reps on twitter or on here to see if they have a clue. I hate to keep referring people to Margret, but she seems to go out of her way to help so you may want to drop her a line, tivodesign. I don't know if Tivopony still checks his PMs here.


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

They can get out of self installs of cable cards if they do not allow self install of broadband. It reads that companies has to allow self install if they allow self install of broadband.
Before every one starts jumping on me I will say this, you should be allowed to install cable cards. I am upset that Comcast wants to charge me $50.00 to change a cable modem but it free to a new customer.


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

Getting cable cards from my cable company is like pulling teeth. We are in a very poorly served area of the country.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

caddyroger said:


> They can get out of self installs of cable cards if they do not allow self install of broadband. It reads that companies has to allow self install if they allow self install of broadband.
> Before every one starts jumping on me I will say this, you should be allowed to install cable cards. I am upset that Comcast wants to charge me $50.00 to change a cable modem but it free to a new customer.


12 months is the deadline for companies that don't allow self-installs so if they don't know they will have to in 1 year.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> So what does:
> 
> "Rules regarding Cable Companies requirement to provide the same level of service to CableCard subscribers as to those with leased set-top boxes."​Mean? To me it would mean that if the cable company's leased set-top box received 125 channels then someone using a cable card in a non-cable company STB would also have to get the same 125 channels. Isn't that what a IP based SDV solution was supposed to get consumers?
> 
> Thanks,


Would it means that CableCARD uses have to get all of the VOD that STBs get?

You _just know_ that the cablecos will ignore or weasel out of that.


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## wisny (Sep 6, 2010)

innocentfreak said:


> I would file it and just say they still don't work. I don't know honestly, could always send a message to one of the TiVo reps on twitter or on here to see if they have a clue. I hate to keep referring people to Margret, but she seems to go out of her way to help so you may want to drop her a line, tivodesign. I don't know if Tivopony still checks his PMs here.


ty, innocentfreak


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

netringer said:


> Would it means that CableCARD uses have to get all of the VOD that STBs get?
> 
> You _just know_ that the cablecos will ignore or weasel out of that.


No. It is specific and excludes on demand programming. It only applies to linear scheduled programming.

Another amendment is providers were given permission to apply copy once to reruns and on demand content originally aired on a local broadcast chanel iirc and read it correctly.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It seems odd that the cable cos have a year to implement these changes to CableCARD when AllVid is suppose to replace it in just two years. Why would they make cable cos invest money into infrastructure to support self-install CableCARDs if it's going to become obsolete a year latter? I'm betting the cable cos use this same argument and get AllVid pushed back at least a few more years, or maybe even canceled outright. 

Dan


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

If they follow TiVo's advice and other advice, CableCARDs will be around for much longer. Most consumer electronic companies that commented said that CableCARDs shouldn't be replaced until after the new solution is found to be successful. Then the transitional period would begin. 

It makes sense and I agree with it. What if Allvid rolls out the way cable companies want? If you get that say goodbye to TiVo as you know it. The cable companies think you should have to do everything in their UI. So VOD would be presented with their UI for example unlike how TiVo currently does it where it presents Netflix content alongside linear programming. 

The NCTA, I believe, compared it to a shopping mall. Every store should look different based on who owns/controls it. This way the subscriber wouldn't be confused on where the content originated from.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

innocentfreak said:


> The NCTA, I believe, compared it to a shopping mall. Every store should look different based on who owns/controls it. This way the subscriber wouldn't be confused on where the content originated from.


I don't see a problem with that. Netflix has it's own UI on the TiVo but it still works just fine. Linear video should still be output in a format that any device can record/display via their own UI, but I see no problem with them using some sort of external UI for accessing interactive features.

The big draw of AllVid, to me, is the ability to use the same device to access any programming source (i.e. cable, DSS, IPTV, etc..) by simply swapping out a leased tuner box which uses a standard interface. That would be the holy grail of consumer choice. For example if your cable company starts putting a CCI bit on every channel just to disable MRV you could just switch to one of the DSS providers which didn't have such restrictive tactics.

It's almost like the old days when TiVo could record from any provider as long as they had a box and the right IR codes. Except this time it would all be digital HD and support multiple "tuners".

Dan


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I don't see a problem with that. Netflix has it's own UI on the TiVo but it still works just fine. Linear video should still be output in a format that any device can record/display via their own UI, but I see no problem with them using some sort of external UI for accessing interactive features.
> 
> The big draw of AllVid, to me, is the ability to use the same device to access any programming source (i.e. cable, DSS, IPTV, etc..) by simply swapping out a leased tuner box which uses a standard interface. That would be the holy grail of consumer choice. For example if your cable company starts putting a CCI bit on every channel just to disable MRV you could just switch to one of the DSS providers which didn't have such restrictive tactics.
> 
> ...


The problem is this would probably also mean the cable stuff would be presented with the cable companies GUI and not TiVos if I read it correctly. You would probably also be prohibited from displaying Netflix content next to the cable companies. This would mean you would need to go into a different UI for everything rather than using something like the new search.

The cable companies want you to know the content comes from them and not anyone else. They don't believe TiVo's current version makes it clear whose content belongs to who.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

netringer said:


> Would it means that CableCARD uses have to get all of the VOD that STBs get?
> 
> You _just know_ that the cablecos will ignore or weasel out of that.


Last I read TiVo and Cox sign an agreement to provide VOD for the Premiere box starting next year.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> It seems odd that the cable cos have a year to implement these changes to CableCARD when AllVid is suppose to replace it in just two years.


It was an idea, not a FCC "order." So the product and timeline do not exist and, frankly, I have my doubts the FCC has the power to force such a technical solution upon the industry. Even if the concept takes hold and/or the FCC can require a gateway of some sort, it'll take years to engineer and implement across the board. What we're more likely to see in 2012 is the son-of-tru2way.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

wisny said:


> How did you get them to start recording again? We ran out of space on our drive, so all the suggestions got deleted. We've since added an Expander, so not there's space, but there have been no suggestions recorded. They are turned on in the recording options.


I pulled the cable cards and returned the TA.


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## RealityCheck (Feb 15, 2007)

Skimming through the 59 page FCC document; I conclude the CableCARD reforms largely amount to window dressing. The FCC has not implemented any programs that would foster parity with retail CableCARD devices and MVPD leased set top boxes. The only major change provided is the self installation of PoDs; which the NCTA didn't object to. This document reads as if it were written by the NCTA.

The FCC has done absolutely nothing to establish a retail option to buy PoDs, find the actual build of materials cost, address the outrageous rates some MVPDs are charging monthly for them (e.g. Verizon's $3.99 per card fee), removing the need for tuning adapters (although the FCC didn't foreclose on the idea of mandating an "IP Backchannel" if TAs continue to prove unreliable, or if MVPDs choose to charge for them). Removing the entire need of CableLabs certification for UDCP or PoD devices provided they conform to an established specification (like your landline phone). We didn't even discuss any bi-directional communication, outside briefly mentioning "tru2way" (a stillborn technology on both the CEA and NCTA fronts) and "AllVid" (a specification at least a decade away, and already renders the current electronics cycle useless. Most people just upgraded to DTV, and are not going to replace them for "AllVid" capable devices.). Had CableLabs established a single bi-directional protocol, or would certify non "tru2way" devices with embedded DOCSIS modems; we wouldn't need "AllVid" or TAs. Heck, if MVPDs would relent on "binding" PoDs with UDCP devices; cards could be provisioned prior to installation and be installed in a "plug & play" fashion (while leaving it up to the UDCP OEM to provide any tech support needed for insertion schema).

The consumer has gained nothing. The NCTA has won big time. 

While it wasn't mentioned, it appears the notion of "Clear QAM Expanded Basic" is off the table. Instead of writing the FCC (an exercise in futility), we need to start peppering members of Congress. Granted, this issue is hardly as sexy (or dangerous) as healthcare, but someone needs to look out for the consumer. Alas, nobody does.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> The problem is this would probably also mean the cable stuff would be presented with the cable companies GUI and not TiVos if I read it correctly.


Not for linear programming, as it is now for a Cablecard device.

Yes, you could get a basic STB or TV set which uses nothing but the UI supplied by the gateway box for all services/features, but there will likely not be a requirement to use the cable UI for linear channels, and in fact a strong probability that 3rd party boxes be allowed to present their UI for linear channel navigation.



> You would probably also be prohibited from displaying Netflix content next to the cable companies. This would mean you would need to go into a different UI for everything rather than using something like the new search.


Possible, for the cable VOD interface. For linear cable and outside sources, cable has no business knowing or caring they are in the same UI. The channels have been paid for. They should want their VOD content included in a cross platform search.


> The cable companies want you to know the content comes from them and not anyone else. They don't believe TiVo's current version makes it clear whose content belongs to who.


For linear channels at least, it shouldn't matter. The cable provider is just a conduit. The "owner" of the content the I should be reminded of is the channel.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Johncv said:


> Last I read TiVo and Cox sign an agreement to provide VOD for the Premiere box starting next year.


That is a voluntary agreement between the two though, not a requirement imposed by a government regulator.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

RealityCheck said:


> Skimming through the 59 page FCC document; I conclude the CableCARD reforms largely amount to window dressing. The FCC has not implemented any programs that would foster parity with retail CableCARD devices and MVPD leased set top boxes. The only major change provided is the self installation of PoDs; which the NCTA didn't object to. This document reads as if it were written by the NCTA.


The NCTA conceded some battles that they knew they were going to lose anyway. That doesn't mean that they'd have written it that way if they had their choice.

There are some clear wins here for consumers. I don't think it's going to have the affect that Congress originally intended, but it should make it practical for almost anyone who wants a third party device to have one without a huge hassle.



> The FCC has done absolutely nothing to establish a retail option to buy PoDs, find the actual build of materials cost, address the outrageous rates some MVPDs are charging monthly for them (e.g. Verizon's $3.99 per card fee), removing the need for tuning adapters (although the FCC didn't foreclose on the idea of mandating an "IP Backchannel" if TAs continue to prove unreliable, or if MVPDs choose to charge for them).


If I read the rules on pricing transparency correctly, I think we'll see some improvement in CableCard fees. Cable operators can now screw everyone equally or stop screwing third party device owners specifically.

Also, tuning adapters exist today only because cable operators had hoped to avoid exactly this kind of regulation. Now SVD access has gone from something that cable operators might provide out of the goodness of their heart to something that they are required to provide and make work. There's now a defined process for complaining about cable card and tuning adapters and a pointed threat from the FCC to strictly enforce the requirement.  If they follow through, that's a major improvement.

Two-way access is rapidly becoming moot. Many people are finding online services to be a better option. The cable industry's slice of that pie is going to start dwindling if they don't find a way to provide access to CE devices.


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## BruceShultes (Oct 2, 2006)

I got mad enough at TW for turning on the cciByte on all channels except the OTA ones that I dropped TW and am now just using my Tivos to record OTA shows.

There is no reason for the cable companies to be preventing transfers between boxes on the same account.

I also have DirecTV and they have now implemented their version of MRV. At this point I am able to watch a show recorded on any of DirecTV's DVR's on any other DVR's or set top box in my house.

You can do this either through your own ethernet network or with DirecTV's SWM, where the network is created over the same cables that bring the satellite signal to the boxes.

This shows to me that the content providers have no objection to this. It is only the cable companies that are trying to make us use their equipment so they can gouge more money out of us every month.


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## DrSnoCaps (Dec 30, 2007)

Airhead315 said:


> Everyone knows that the FCC broadband plan contains elements regarding CableCard rule changes. I am in the process of watching the open commision meeting right now, and they have just approved the order. Here are some bullet points.
> 
> Things they ARE changing:
> 1. Forces Cable Companies to allow self-install of CableCards
> ...


Here's an email exchange I had with the Time Warner folks regarding self-install. It should be read from the bottom up.



> Dear Mr. Hyatt,
> 
> Thank you for the reply. At this time, there is still a charge for CableCARD installations. Once this changes, we will be happy to ensure that this information is changed on our website and that any customers that do wish to have a cableCARD installed will not be charged.
> 
> ...


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Unfortunately the FCC gave them plenty of time to drag their feet over self-installs. They're not going to be in any big hurry to comply before the deadline.


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