# Still no series 3 news?



## getgray (Mar 2, 2006)

Sorry guys, I expct this is beat to death, btu I didn't see it in any recent discussions and I spend most of my "forum time" on AVS.

Still no news or updates on S3 release? Still pre-Jan2007 the best that is out?

I'm itching to activate a lidetime card...

Thanks, Scott


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

No recent news. Still scheduled for "second half" of 2006. I sure hope it comes sooner rather than later... and at $400 rather than $800.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

davezatz said:


> No recent news. Still scheduled for "second half" of 2006. I sure hope it comes sooner rather than later... and at $400 rather than $800.


Dave, I'm banking on closer to $800 and saving accordingly. Then, anything less is gravy. It's tough being patient...


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

My unofficial rule has always been an accessory can't cost more than the device it's intended to supplement. If it comes in at $800 or more I'll only buy one for whatever my main tv/projector at the time. I'm hoping they price it agressively to get it out there and also they will be competing with themselves in some respects when the (probably hobbled) Comcast TiVo launches. I assume the price it's released at will also not be the final/only price... especially if they beat the Comcast TiVo to market by a few months.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TiVo's problems, in the past, have been related to lack of revenue. There are two ways to end up with lack of revenue. First, the most obvious, is not selling enough, and that could very-well be caused by charging more than the market is willing to bear. Second, the less obvious, is selling at too low of a price to make substantial profit. What happens in many cases, not just with regard to TiVo, but really with regard to all consumer products AND services, is that there simply isn't a price-point at which the product can be profitable. I wouldn't be surprised that the TiVo Serie 3 is riding the edge of that range.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

davezatz said:


> No recent news. Still scheduled for "second half" of 2006. I sure hope it comes sooner rather than later... and at $400 rather than $800.


When was it "Scheduled"??? Do you have a link announcing a release date?


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## elrcastor (Mar 7, 2004)

TivoPony/TivoJerry/TivoOPSMgr have said second half/2006 when they have been asked


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

It's "scheduled" to be released the 2nd half of 2006.

They don't have a date and exact time set yet.

I'm guessing about December they'll be available.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

And they are quite insistent that no other words would be used to indicate the release schedule.

On the other hand, I guess you missed the announcement that every attendee of the upcoming TC-Con in Vegas will get one free...


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## DTSDude (May 24, 2006)

I would expect we won't hear anything till around 2 months before the release date. Just long enough to get the pre-orders in and then get the thing out the door. I'm starting to wonder if it's being held back in fear of what CC 2.0 specs are going to look like.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

DTSDude said:


> I would expect we won't hear anything till around 2 months before the release date. Just long enough to get the pre-orders in and then get the thing out the door. I'm starting to wonder if it's being held back in fear of what CC 2.0 specs are going to look like.


Since it doesn't support CC 2.0, I'm not sure why that would even be a concern.


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

bicker said:


> TiVo's problems, in the past, have been related to lack of revenue. There are two ways to end up with lack of revenue. First, the most obvious, is not selling enough, and that could very-well be caused by charging more than the market is willing to bear. Second, the less obvious, is selling at too low of a price to make substantial profit. What happens in many cases, not just with regard to TiVo, but really with regard to all consumer products AND services, is that there simply isn't a price-point at which the product can be profitable. I wouldn't be surprised that the TiVo Serie 3 is riding the edge of that range.


It's also tough for some people to buy something to record tv shows and have to pay a company $12.95/month to do it. I know, I know it does more than just record tv shows, but some people just don't feel like paying extra money each month.

A lot of people are told - The TiVo recorder also lets you transfer TV shows to your PC, view pictures from your PC on your TV, play music from your PC thru the TiVo and they say - Who cares !, I just wanna record TV shows and watch them on the TV the recorder is connected to.

Maybe if the TiVo cost more to buy but $0.00 monthly fee more people would get one.

I'm sure somebody will jump in and say - If you buy a computer you have to buy and license the software ! None of the PC consumer user software manufactuers charges $12.95 a month user fee.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Stanley Rohner said:


> It's also tough for some people to buy something to record tv shows and have to pay a company $12.95/month to do it. I know, I know it does more than just record tv shows, but some people just don't feel like paying extra money each month...


 Then why make that type of ridiculous, inflammatory statement? Most certainly no one is paying $12.95/mo. for "recording". My $$ is going for the excellent UI, program guide, TiVo features, CS and reliability.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

stevel said:


> And they are quite insistent that no other words would be used to indicate the release schedule.
> 
> On the other hand, I guess you missed the announcement that every attendee of the upcoming TC-Con in Vegas will get one free...


what, they will get a free release schedule


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stanley Rohner said:


> Maybe if the TiVo cost more to buy but $0.00 monthly fee more people would get one.
> 
> I'm sure somebody will jump in and say - If you buy a computer you have to buy and license the software ! None of the PC consumer user software manufactuers charges $12.95 a month user fee.


TiVo did some test marketing and found more people liked the no money down and pay monthly structure. This board is not exactly a good random mix of the total market. Not many people in the total market use a PC to record TV so the analogy does not hold up.

Lifetime is gone and that is what you will have to deal with in some form when buying a series 3


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Stanley Rohner said:


> None of the PC consumer user software manufactuers charges $12.95 a month user fee.


But they do charge over $1000 for the hardware necessary to do all you're suggesting. Most people rationalize that because they can get more utility out of their computers than just home entertainment.


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

Stanley Rohner said:


> It's also tough for some people to buy something to record tv shows and have to pay a company $12.95/month to do it. I know, I know it does more than just record tv shows, but some people just don't feel like paying extra money each month.
> 
> A lot of people are told - The TiVo recorder also lets you transfer TV shows to your PC, view pictures from your PC on your TV, play music from your PC thru the TiVo and they say - Who cares !, I just wanna record TV shows and watch them on the TV the recorder is connected to.
> 
> ...


How do you record shows, off the internet?? dont you pay a monthly fee for this that is more than $12.95?? I am not saying that people would or shoud abandon the internet but for your argument that they just want to record this is actually a much cheaper way


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## jmrife (Jan 12, 2004)

getgray said:


> Sorry guys, I expct this is beat to death, btu I didn't see it in any recent discussions and I spend most of my "forum time" on AVS.
> 
> Still no news or updates on S3 release? Still pre-Jan2007 the best that is out?
> 
> ...


I guess you guys don't remember, or weren't around, when we went through this release date business craziness with the HR-10-250. People got really testy. Conspiracy theories ruled.

So expect your electroanxiety to get worse before it gets better.

Oh, and despite the fact that I own two of the 10-250s, I am also interested in this unit. Hurry hurry.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah, but this time it's up to TiVo and not DirecTV to get it out. Plus technically the S3 was announced at CES 2 years ago. So we're pretty much right on track with the HD-DirecTiVo release schedule. I just hope they don't have the same supply problem. After the HD-DirecTiVos were "released" it took a few more months before you could actually buy one without having already been on some sort of pre-order list. Personally I'm looking forward to a release similar to the S2DT. They announce them and have them available immediately via the web site.

Dan


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Second half.

Oh, we have a date internally.

But this isn't internal, is it? 

Second half.

Pony


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

TiVoPony said:


> Second half.
> 
> Oh, we have a date internally.
> 
> ...


Starts to build the "Drinks for Pony in Las Vegas" fund.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

My guess is still August 28th. It's the last Monday of the 3rd quarter and my birthday, so it seems like a perfect day! Plus they announced the S2DT on the last Monday of 1st quarter, so it would fit the pattern. 

Dan


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> Second half.
> 
> Oh, we have a date internally.
> 
> ...


Rub it in our collective faces will you!

BTW, got any intern positions open for the summer?


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

aztivo said:


> How do you record shows, off the internet?? dont you pay a monthly fee for this that is more than $12.95?? I am not saying that people would or shoud abandon the internet but for your argument that they just want to record this is actually a much cheaper way


Who said anything about record shows off the internet ?
 

I've got a DIRECTV/TiVo and pay a $4.99/month fee. They call it a DVR fee. I don't have any need to play music from my PC thru my the TiVo, look at pictures from my PC on my TV via the TiVo, or transfer shows from my recorder to the PC. I could if I wanted to hack the box.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> ...Oh, we have a date internally.
> 
> But this isn't internal, is it?
> 
> ...


*Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!*
   

Pony, you stinking tease!


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> Second half.
> 
> Oh, we have a date internally.
> 
> ...


 Of 2006, right?



I'm going with November 13th and will throw my $1.00 in the virtual pot.

Pony, you ain't allowed in the pool... Unless of course you want to make a few bucks and throw out your "guess"


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## bap (Dec 7, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> Second half.
> 
> Oh, we have a date internally.
> 
> ...


So do you get a kick out of driving your customers nuts?


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> Second half.
> 
> Oh, we have a date internally.
> 
> ...


PM me the date ... I promise I won't tell.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> Starts to build the "Drinks for Pony in Las Vegas" fund.


I'll contribute if you can get Pony to define "second half" a bit more precisely than Dan did ...


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bap said:


> So do you get a kick out of driving your customers nuts?


In marketing terms, it's called building anticipation.

Makes you wonder though how many sales of the DT units are being held up pending the announcement/pricing of the Series 3.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> Second half.
> 
> Oh, we have a date internally.
> 
> ...


That's taunting, isn't it?

Is he taunting us?

I think that he is.

I'm visualizing Pony as the Frenchman in Python's Holy Grail.
"Your mother was a ReplayTV and your father smelled of Tivoberries."


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

jmrife said:


> I guess you guys don't remember, or weren't around, when we went through this release date business craziness with the HR-10-250. People got really testy. Conspiracy theories ruled.


Who told you to say that? How much did they pay you?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> Oh, we have a date internally.


I've got a date internally, too. It's with Scarlett Johansson.


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## mahk (Mar 1, 2005)

Sourcing folks at Best Buy Corporate in MN are saying October ...


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

mahk said:


> Sourcing folks at Best Buy Corporate in MN are saying October ...


I don't want to believe the TiVo marketing guys would miss the start of the fall season. I'm sure I'm not alone in planning to have my new HD TV and HD PVR all set up and running before September.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

mahk said:


> Sourcing folks at Best Buy Corporate in MN are saying October ...


If true, very disappointing that it won't be available before the Fall TV season.

But slightly encouraging in that means the Series 3 should be available at retail for Black Friday.

However, October is indeed "second half"


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

Well D* is just giving away the 250 if your a ST subscriber. I just called and have my second unit set to be installed on monday! I figure it will hold me over until the series 3 hits lol.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

mahk said:


> Sourcing folks at Best Buy Corporate in MN are saying October ...


In the name of all that is holy....*WHO* in the world would believe *ANYTHING ANYONE* at Best Buy would say   ?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> Second half.
> 
> Oh, we have a date internally.
> 
> ...


but it is indeed infernal


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Stanley Rohner said:


> It's "scheduled" to be released the 2nd half of 2006.
> 
> They don't have a date and exact time set yet.
> 
> I'm guessing about December they'll be available.


Scheduled means HALF A YEAAAR? Thats NOT scheduled!

Scheduled means a DATE announced publicly, not a bunch of hearsay on a internet forum...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Scheduled means HALF A YEAAAR? Thats NOT scheduled!
> 
> Scheduled means a DATE announced publicly, not a bunch of hearsay on a internet forum...


the hearsay is direct posting by TiVo employees. some of those postings are in this very thread.
You are nitpicking on a word but even with that you are not really making any real point.


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## DTSDude (May 24, 2006)

rainwater said:


> Since it doesn't support CC 2.0, I'm not sure why that would even be a concern.


Did I miss something? I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the CES articles stated TiVo said the unit would support CC 2.0?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Nope! They will support a multi-stream CableCARD. However that is NOT CableCARD 2.0! Multi-stream cards are a suplimentry specification that added multi-stream support to the unidirectional CableCARD 1.0 spec. CableCARD 2.0's main purpose is bidirectional support, and the spec has not even finalized yet, so there is no way they could support it in a product being released this year.

Dan


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Nope! They will support a multi-stream CableCARD. However that is NOT CableCARD 2.0! Multi-stream cards are a suplimentry specification that added multi-stream support to the unidirectional CableCARD 1.0 spec. CableCARD 2.0's main purpose is bidirectional support, and the spec has not even finalized yet, so there is no way they could support it in a product being released this year.
> 
> Dan


Okay, so maybe I'm being dumb here, but according to what i read the Cable Card 2.0 spec has been issued (just that nobody actually is shipping anything yet), although not Closed. (Does Closed=Finalized?)

http://www.opencable.com/downloads/specs/OC-SP-CCIF2.0-I04-060126.pdf

Although, IMO, if there is no CC 2.0 "upgrade" for the S3, it's pretty much gonna kill the S3 sales (although not for everyone).

I mean, I wouldn't want to spend $800-1000 on a Series 3, only to have it basically "useless" a year or so later when TW switches to SDV. (I think I saw something where TW said they were going to switch all sites over to SDV within 3 years).

I mean I'd REALLY love to have one, mind you, but not willing to risk that price on the "hope" that TW will convert me 3 years from now instead of a few months to a year later (or whatever).

I guess that's the "beauty" (if you can call it that) of renting a DVR from your cable company--never have to pay outright for the upgrade (although their rate increases are terrible--but even if you had a Series 3 you're still gonna pay the same cable rates regardless).


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

m_jonis said:


> ..... it's pretty much gonna kill the S3 sales ....


Clearly TiVo and pretty well every TV manufacturer do not see it that way, after all there are no shortage of cablecard 1.0 devices out or in production.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

nhaigh said:


> Clearly TiVo and pretty well every TV manufacturer do not see it that way, after all there are no shortage of cablecard 1.0 devices out or in production.


From what I've read, many of the next-gen TV sets will not include CC slots.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

jfh3 said:


> From what I've read, many of the next-gen TV sets will not include CC slots.


Well all the ones I'm looking at seem to included them. I have noticed a trend to bring a cheaper model out without them as well. It seems to take $300-$500 off the price. That said its only 10% of the TV's value and I think even a cable 1.0 slot is worth having given I almost never use cable interactive features. I have a TiVo after all - what use is VOD with a bunch of old films I don't want to watch and five episodes of a series that I watched when it was first shown.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

nhaigh said:


> Clearly TiVo and pretty well every TV manufacturer do not see it that way, after all there are no shortage of cablecard 1.0 devices out or in production.


So would YOU spend $800-1000 on a series 3 if there was a strong chance in a year or so that you couldn't watch or record the HD channels because they're switched?


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

m_jonis said:


> So would YOU spend $800-1000 on a series 3 if there was a strong chance in a year or so that you couldn't watch or record the HD channels because they're switched?


What has cablecard 1.0 or 2.0 got to do with switched digital cable? Neither spec accomodates it.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

As I understand it, there's 3 ways to do SDV, all of which require 2-way communication. Does not CC 2.0 address 2-way communication?

Besides, you never answered my question:

Would you buy a series 3 for $800-1000 knowing you had a good chance you couldn't use it to watch/record HD material in a year or so?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

m_jonis said:


> So would YOU spend $800-1000 on a series 3 if there was a strong chance in a year or so that you couldn't watch or record the HD channels because they're switched?





m_jonis said:


> ...Would you buy a series 3 for $800-1000 knowing you had a good chance you couldn't use it to watch/record HD material in a year or so?


What's stopping me from watching/recording HD OTA for the foreseeable future with the Series 3 (with the excellent TiVo UI and guide)?


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> What's stopping me from watching/recording HD OTA with the Series 3 (with the excellent TiVo UI and guide)?


Terrible OTA reception


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## bap (Dec 7, 2003)

m_jonis said:


> Would you buy a series 3 for $800-1000 knowing you had a good chance you couldn't use it to watch/record HD material in a year or so?


Theoretically you only wouldn't be able to use it to watch/record scrambled channels. If I recall correctly, the cable companies still need to provide broadcast stations (ABC, CBS, NBC, etc) unscrambled. You'd also be able to watch/record HD OTA channels.

Right now my only alternative would be to spend over $800 to try to build a HD MythTV box, which would also be limited to unscrambled HD content. I'd consider $800 for a S3 TiVo to be a worthwhile alternative. If it supports scrambled HD channels via CC then I'd consider it a bonus.

-Bruce


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

tase2 said:


> Terrible OTA reception


 Not in my market....CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox, PBS (and soon CW)...all within 20 miles.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bap said:


> ...I'd consider $800 for a S3 TiVo to be a worthwhile alternative. If it supports scrambled HD channels via CC then I'd consider it a bonus.
> 
> -Bruce


EXACTLY how I feel.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

m_jonis said:


> Would you buy a series 3 for $800-1000 knowing you had a good chance you couldn't use it to watch/record HD material in a year or so?


If that was a real risk I think maybe not. However as today the FCC mandates that cable companies provide cablecard support I cannot see how they can get out of it.

Cablecard 2.0 does support two way communication but I don't believe it supports switched digital which is a whole change in implementation.


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## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> My guess is still August 28th. It's the last Monday of the 3rd quarter and my birthday, so it seems like a perfect day! Plus they announced the S2DT on the last Monday of 1st quarter, so it would fit the pattern.
> 
> Dan


The last Monday of TiVo's 3rd quarter is Oct. 30.
The last Monday of the 3rd calendar quarter is Sept. 25.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Don't expect two-way cable card to solve any of Tivo's problems. From what I understand, the way the regulations are written if you support two-way communications you must be fully compliant with OCAP which means that you must allow the cable operator to overlay the user interface application via download.

This means that if you want two-way communication, you can kiss the Tivo user interface goodbye as the cable operators download their POS guides.

Take one guess which industry group got that little nugget written into the regs?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ah30k said:


> Don't expect two-way cable card to solve any of Tivo's problems. From what I understand, the way the regulations are written if you support two-way communications you must be fully compliant with OCAP which means that you must allow the cable operator to overlay the user interface application via download.
> 
> This means that if you want two-way communication, you can kiss the Tivo user interface goodbye as the cable operators download their POS guides.
> 
> Take one guess which industry group got that little nugget written into the regs?


and that is precisely why the standard for Cc 2.0 has not been ratified yet. The cable operators are clinging to contorlling everything themsleves - right down to the interface on 3rd pary hardware. Not exactly embracing the idea of an open standard to allow 3rd parties to compete, of course the Electronic manaufacturer's are fighting to make it a simple standard of how to send a set of commands back and forth and the electronic make gets to decide the interface.

a "bit" of a gulf between the two that just might take a "wee bit" longer to work out.


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## mbhuff (Jan 25, 2004)

Cable companies are going to fight for OCAP for all end-user boxes for the same reason they are opposing "Net Neutrality" because signing up users for cable isn't a growth industry. The cable market is mature, their is no significant growth. What both cable companies and the telcos want is a return to the 1980s, ala the original AOL, Compuserve, etc. They want to lock in users to their set of "services" such as auto, travel, real estate, etc... They want to replace Amazon, Google, Ebay etc... That's where the money is. Most of these companies are publicly traded, and their executives get compenstated by providing steady growth each quarter. At this point, the only way to do that is to change the game. 

Their goal is to control the set-top box and provide services. Anyone in the NY area that has cablevision is familar with all the ads for cablevisions auto and real estate services. They made the user-interface even more arcane by requiring you to go their their service menu before getting to the guide.

They will find anyway, fair or unfair, to undermind Tivo or any other third-party box. The FCC is feckless and will do nothing to stop them. I'm a Tivo addict and hope the S3 will be successfull, but it's going to be a fight every step of the way.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Some clarification... 

Multistream support is the part of the CC 2.0 spec that has been agreed upon and should begin showing up in CableCARDs. Multistream lets you tune multiple channels through one line. 

Bidirectional support is the part that hasn't been agreed upon and won't be around for awhile. Bidirectional supports two way communication for things like PPV/VOD.

So in reality, we're going to end up with some sort of CC 1.5 card... The TiVo S3 has support for Multistream. Meaning if you plug one coax cable in you can dual tune by way of the updated CableCARD. Until the updated card is released or until you get one, TiVo will support two individual CableCARDs to provide dual tuning.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

ah30k said:


> Don't expect two-way cable card to solve any of Tivo's problems. From what I understand, the way the regulations are written if you support two-way communications you must be fully compliant with OCAP which means that you must allow the cable operator to overlay the user interface application via download.
> 
> This means that if you want two-way communication, you can kiss the Tivo user interface goodbye as the cable operators download their POS guides.


Yes. Tivo (and other CE companies) could provide their own software. But it would be limited. For example, a cable-provided guide and DVR software could access and record SDV channels ... but all Tivo-provided software could do would be to let the user access SDV channels through cable-provided software, but not record it unless they were also using cable-provided DVR software ...


ZeoTiVo said:


> and that is precisely why the standard for Cc 2.0 has not been ratified yet.


Yup.

However, apparantly the negotiations are making a bit of headway.

CableLabs is (reportedly) working on an "OCAP 1.1" spec which addresses alot of the CE concerns. I haven't seen it, but it does sound like cable and the CE companies have made some compromises.

For example, see the following article
OCAP: The next generation

Of course ... it's going to be a while ...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Curtis said:



> The last Monday of TiVo's 3rd quarter is Oct. 30.
> The last Monday of the 3rd calendar quarter is Sept. 25.


You're right, I was totaly off on that! I don't know what I was thinking. 

I stand by my prediction though, even if the logic was flawed. 

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

m_jonis said:


> Okay, so maybe I'm being dumb here, but according to what i read the Cable Card 2.0 spec has been issued (just that nobody actually is shipping anything yet), although not Closed. (Does Closed=Finalized?)


Yes "Closed" is finalized. "Issued" just means that it's finished enough from a hardware standpoint that manufacturers can start developing 2.0 capable hardware. However this only happened in April, way to late for the S3 unit to be 2.0 compatible.



m_jonis said:


> So would YOU spend $800-1000 on a series 3 if there was a strong chance in a year or so that you couldn't watch or record the HD channels because they're switched?


I would! I believe that even TWC is not using SDV on local HD channels, just the extra HD channels like HBO, ESPN, TNT, etc... So even after the switch you should still be able to record local HD content. (which is 90% of what I watch anyway) And if they do move locals to SDV then the S3 will still have some resale value on eBay, so you wont be out the full $800-$1000.

Dan


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

The whole thing is a bit depressing. So the cable industry basically wants to screw any CC customers, force everyone to rent a STB (I'm sure at the "regular" price of $7.95 or higher /month) and the FCC seems to just sit by and let them do whatever they want.

About the only thing I could find is this from USA Today article (yes, I'm only posting a SMALL bit so I don't get like whacked): 

Cable operators find it tough to swallow HDTV

June 5, 2006

By David Lieberman, USA TODAY

"...The good news for operators and investors is bad news for subscribers who bought TVs and digital video recorders that unscramble digital signals with a CableCard  effectively, a set-top box on a card.

The Federal Communications Commission prodded the cable industry to support the cards as a first step to fulfill a 1996 congressional mandate to free consumers from having to get a box to watch or record TV shows. But the cards now in use in about 400 products introduced since July 2004  including lots of HDTVs  only receive signals and can't send a message to a switched system telling it to pass through a particular channel to the neighborhood.

CableCard users in San Diego found out what that meant last year when Time Warner deployed a switched-digital system. They lost East Coast versions of several premium channels. A company letter also warned owners of HD sets that they might not be able to get HD channels being added. As compensation, the company said it would give them a digital set-top box free for a year. Instead, CableCard customers decided to drop cable for satellite HDTV service.

That's a step backward, TV and DVR makers say.

"We see switched digital as another way cable is trying to undermine the CableCard and discourage its use," says Consumer Electronics Association spokesman Jeffrey Joseph. Although more than a million CableCard-ready digital TVs have been sold, he says, operators' half-hearted support has meant that only about 150,000 CableCards are in use.

An FCC spokeswoman declined to comment on the matter, citing the current government mandate for CableCard and proceedings in progress on new CableCard standards that would support interactive TV and switched digital. "


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## wingerzzz (Jul 19, 2005)

bicker said:


> TiVo's problems, in the past, have been related to lack of revenue. There are two ways to end up with lack of revenue. First, the most obvious, is not selling enough, and that could very-well be caused by charging more than the market is willing to bear. Second, the less obvious, is selling at too low of a price to make substantial profit. What happens in many cases, not just with regard to TiVo, but really with regard to all consumer products AND services, is that there simply isn't a price-point at which the product can be profitable. I wouldn't be surprised that the TiVo Serie 3 is riding the edge of that range.


I think you have hit the nail on the head. Sure for people like us the prices have been well worth it and even with some complaining we shell out the money. But for mass marketing TIVO stumbled out of the block by trying to instantly get revenue instead of market share. This caused the competitors to eventually come in and compete too easily with inferior products.

Yes, people like us are willing to pay the high price of a new gadget and a monthly fee, but mainstream public obviously has not responded at TIVO trying to get it at both ends. Initial price and monthly fee. I think we have all told people or have been asked about TIVO from friends and coworkers. I know for me when I mention the monthly fee that becomes a big issue. That is just a fact. Does not make it wrong but if TIVO wants to compete in the mass market area they need to keep the fee in line with other competitors and price the boxes to sell and this does not mean out of date ones. Nobody wants to buy things that they no are not current.

Having us hooked is easy we are already on the line. Getting others is the trick.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

wingerzzz said:


> I think you have hit the nail on the head. Sure for people like us the prices have been well worth it and even with some complaining we shell out the money. But for mass marketing TIVO stumbled out of the block by trying to instantly get revenue instead of market share. This caused the competitors to eventually come in and compete too easily with inferior products.
> 
> Yes, people like us are willing to pay the high price of a new gadget and a monthly fee, but mainstream public obviously has not responded at TIVO trying to get it at both ends. Initial price and monthly fee. I think we have all told people or have been asked about TIVO from friends and coworkers. I know for me when I mention the monthly fee that becomes a big issue. That is just a fact. Does not make it wrong but if TIVO wants to compete in the mass market area they need to keep the fee in line with other competitors and price the boxes to sell and this does not mean out of date ones. Nobody wants to buy things that they no are not current.
> 
> Having us hooked is easy we are already on the line. Getting others is the trick.


There's 2 differnt "costs" here- the hardare cost and the montly service cost.

I could be wrong but I think Bicker was implying that they could make more money by jackign the hardware cost?

Tivo has said they try to break even on hardware as they are a service business. So dont look to them to price boxes so high as to make a profit. Unless thier stategy changes I'd expect them to continue to sell hardware below cost chalkign up the loss as a "marketing" cost like they have typically done with subsidies and rebates.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> ...Unless thier stategy changes I'd expect them to continue to sell hardware below cost chalkign up the loss as a "marketing" cost like they have typically done with subsidies and rebates.


Even with my limited knowledge of technology, I can't IMAGINE that selling the S3 at around $800 WON'T be giving TiVo some profit. I doubt it'll be sold at below cost.


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## puckettcg (Feb 10, 2006)

I hate my cable DVR - and everyday I discover something more I hate about my cable DVR. But, I know no one who will pay $800 for a DVR that has only marginally more space than the Cable DVR (mine is 180GB), when a cable DVR cost nothing upfront and has a lower monthly cost. Tivo is going to have to find a way to make money either partnering with the cable companies or generating ad/download revenue through the other features. And, they'll have to eat some of the hardware cost. $800 seems pretty high for the hardware.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

> I could be wrong but I think Bicker was implying that they could make more money by jackign the hardware cost?


No. I was implying that there may not be a price-point that is amenable to both customers and suppliers. Not everything that can be sold should be sold, and sometimes doing something _really well_ isn't sufficiently rewarded by marketplace. Sometimes, in the long-run, we (the big WE -- the general public) gets what it deserves, i.e., cable company DVRs instead of TiVos.


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## dr_mal (Mar 21, 2001)

puckettcg said:


> But, I know no one who will pay $800 for a DVR that has only marginally more space than the Cable DVR (mine is 180GB)


Hi, my name is Dave. Pleased to meet you.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

puckettcg said:


> I hate my cable DVR - and everyday I discover something more I hate about my cable DVR. But, I know no one who will pay $800 for a DVR that has only marginally more space than the Cable DVR (mine is 180GB), when a cable DVR cost nothing upfront and has a lower monthly cost. Tivo is going to have to find a way to make money either partnering with the cable companies or generating ad/download revenue through the other features. And, they'll have to eat some of the hardware cost. $800 seems pretty high for the hardware.


If they sell for $800 I'll likely pass on it. I may even go the HD route with my cable co, but I'll just get the tuner, not the DVR and settle on SD TiVo output. I can upgrade both TiVo's to compensate for having to record at best quality to get a good picture on my sets for far less money than $800 and it'll be sufficient.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

puckettcg said:


> But, I know no one who will pay $800 for a DVR that has only marginally more space than the Cable DVR (mine is 180GB), when a cable DVR cost nothing upfront and has a lower monthly cost.


Hello, my name is Kyle. Now you know *two* people who will.


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## hongcho (Nov 26, 2003)

puckettcg said:


> But, I know no one who will pay $800 for a DVR that has only marginally more space than the Cable DVR (mine is 180GB), when a cable DVR cost nothing upfront and has a lower monthly cost.


Hi, my name is Hong.

250/180 ~= 1.389. 300/180 ~= 1.667. I guess I now know someone who thinks that is marginal. 

Hong.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

puckettcg said:


> But, I know no one who will pay $800 for a DVR that has only marginally more space than the Cable DVR (mine is 180GB), when a cable DVR cost nothing upfront and has a lower monthly cost.


I have every intention of buying two of these even if they do cost $800. In fact if they come in at any less then that I might even get three.  And when I do my cable DVR is going right back to Charter.

Dan


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

...please allow me to introduce myself....I'm a man of....oh, wait, that's a Stones song...


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

puckettcg said:


> I hate my cable DVR - and everyday I discover something more I hate about my cable DVR. But, I know no one who will pay $800 for a DVR that has only marginally more space than the Cable DVR (mine is 180GB), when a cable DVR cost nothing upfront and has a lower monthly cost. Tivo is going to have to find a way to make money either partnering with the cable companies or generating ad/download revenue through the other features. And, they'll have to eat some of the hardware cost. $800 seems pretty high for the hardware.


Hi, my name is Mark. I plan on buying one of these for the family for Christmas. Tivo, don't let me down.


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## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

Hi, my name is Dave, and I'm a TiVoholic.......


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I am buying Series 2 Dual Tuners - you all can deal with the digital dance for me. I'll show up in a year once the band settles in  

Enjoy the HD, I hear it is really nice.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I am buying Series 2 Dual Tuners - you all can deal with the digital dance for me. I'll show up in a year once the band settles in
> 
> Enjoy the HD, I hear it is really nice.


I'll gladly cut a rug for you


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## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I am buying Series 2 Dual Tuners - you all can deal with the digital dance for me. I'll show up in a year once the band settles in
> 
> Enjoy the HD, I hear it is really nice.


TiVo is the best thing since sliced bread.

HDTV is the best thing since TiVo.


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## gthassell (Apr 22, 2003)

And My Name is Todd.

I'll gladly pay $$$ PLUS trade two unopened Series Twos... and still keep my upgraded Humax DVD....


Gotta LOVE TiVo.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Hello, I'm Jeff and I'll be buying an S3 AND an HDTV (1920 x 1080 natch) at the same time. 

My wallet is crying in advance.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Hi, 

I'm Nick and I have my eyes on an S3 and an HDTV as soon as it comes out.

I need the S3 to complete the set


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

puckettcg said:


> But, I know no one who will pay $800 for a DVR that has only marginally more space than the Cable DVR (mine is 180GB), when a cable DVR cost nothing upfront and has a lower monthly cost. Tivo is going to have to find a way to make money either partnering with the cable companies or generating ad/download revenue through the other features. And, they'll have to eat some of the hardware cost. $800 seems pretty high for the hardware.


Hi! I'd buy one at $799, especially since, unlike a cable DVR, I should be able to easily add storage capacity.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> Even with my limited knowledge of technology, I can't IMAGINE that selling the S3 at around $800 WON'T be giving TiVo some profit. I doubt it'll be sold at below cost.


I believe that $799 was the original MSPR of the Sony DHG-250 unit, which is essentially a single tuner version of what the Series 3 is expected to be, so you would think that $799 for the S3 wouldn't be selling at a loss.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I'll be buying the S3 as quickly as I can; even if they charge me $100,000 and $1000/month for it.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

BillyT2002 said:


> I'll be buying the S3 as quickly as I can; even if they charge me $100,000 and $1000/month for it.


Hey, I'll be glad to save you some big money - for $50K, I'll sell you a Series 3 with a lifetime subscription card ...


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## MEngland (Sep 9, 2002)

BillyT2002 said:


> I'll be buying the S3 as quickly as I can; even if they charge me $100,000 and $1000/month for it.


I'll sell you a S3 with lifetime for the bargain price of $24,000 (a 76% discount from your $100K quote). Plus, with Lifetime, you'll save enough in just two years (@$1k/mo) to pay for the box.

Special deal - If you want TWO S3 boxes, the price will be $40K and I will personally deliver them to your house.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Whoever can get it to me tomorrow 06/13/2006 has my business at any price they want. Otherwise, if I have to wait like the rest of the rabble, I'll pay whatever TIVO charges me for it. (That is if I can't find it for sale on e-Bay before TIVO starts selling it).


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

m_jonis said:


> The whole thing is a bit depressing. So the cable industry basically wants to screw any CC customers, force everyone to rent a STB (I'm sure at the "regular" price of $7.95 or higher /month) and the FCC seems to just sit by and let them do whatever they want.


I'm sure they would love to stop having to manage boxes. The thing is, they want to control the middleware, so if the CE companies don't want to play their game, then they have to continue to issue their STBs.


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## MEngland (Sep 9, 2002)

Please, please, please TiVo announce S3 available tomorrow for immediately delivery. I'll pick one up in person and then fly it to BillyT2002's place. Did you want just one or the special 2fer $40K pricing?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

> *Still no series 3 news?*


Ok, I've got some great news for some of you. TiVo said today (6/13) words to the effect that they don't intend to sell the S3 hardware at a loss.

So you lucky $799 and up people will be satisfied.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

puckettcg said:


> But, I know no one who will pay $800 for a DVR that has only marginally more space than the Cable DVR (mine is 180GB), when a cable DVR cost nothing upfront and has a lower monthly cost.


I already have done, and I intend to do so again when the S3 is available. Then I do (and will) upgrade it with more storage.

How many is that now, I've lost count.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Ok, I've got some great news for some of you. TiVo said today (6/13) words to the effect that they don't intend to sell the S3 hardware at a loss.


Where?


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

My guess is they'll go the cellphone-model route and subsidize the box cost with the subscription (like they're doing now on their website).

I CAN'T WAIT for that thing to come out, though.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> Where?


At a conference. But what they really said is they won't subsidize it at the same levels as the other products, and it will be expensive.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

megazone said:


> At a conference. But what they really said is they won't subsidize it at the same levels as the other products, and it will be expensive.


Mega - I think it's worth quoting the paragraph for us who are anxiously (and, in some cases, INSANELY) waiting for any bit of "official" TiVo info on the S3...


> ...Stuart West, acting CFO for TiVo -- "One extreme is the very high end of the market. I had up there on the slide a Series3 HD product which we're rolling out later this year. That is a dual tuner, actually it has more that two tuners, high definition, broadband connected, it works with all of the Internet video formats, it is a very compelling high end product. But, like a lot of high definition products, it will not be inexpensive. And for us it is an opportunity to really give consumers the best of the best. But that, for example, is not a product we will subsidize at anywhere near the level we have some of our other products. So while it is a very expensive hardware cost, that is something we will be able to manage down in terms of the actual subsidy investment we make."


ALL credit to MegaZone for this information...coming from his posting on TiVolovers.com.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

megazone said:


> At a conference. But what they really said is they won't subsidize it at the same levels as the other products, and it will be expensive.


So it won't be cheap. That's not really a surprise. But might it also be delayed because of CC 2.0 and/or SDV issues?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo Troll said:


> But might it also be delayed because of CC 2.0 and/or SDV issues?


TiVo has been working on the S3 for at least a year and a half. It's highly unlikely they're going to delay it and redesign it just because a new technology that threatens to make it less useful for a small percentage of their target demographic. (as of right now TWC is the only cable company using SDV)

The S3 is going to be released as a CableCARD 1.0 product within the next 6 months. Maybe after it's out the door then TiVo might start thinking about CableCARD 2.0.

Dan


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

If the up front cost is $800 - $1000 dollars plus a hefty monthly fee (Tivo + CC lease) then they won't be selling like hotcakes. Add to that they don't work at all with DirecTV or Echostar and you have to start to wondering why they even bothered. 

The next choice down is a leased unit from the cable company for a few dollars a month. Only the existing Tivo addicts will be lining up to buy a new s3.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> If the up front cost is $800 - $1000 dollars plus a hefty monthly fee (Tivo + CC lease) then they won't be selling like hotcakes. Add to that they don't work at all with DirecTV or Echostar and you have to start to wondering why they even bothered.
> 
> The next choice down is a leased unit from the cable company for a few dollars a month. Only the existing Tivo addicts will be lining up to buy a new s3.


Yeah, at that price I'd be expecting lifetime built into the sale. If not, it's likely me nor anyone I know would be buying one. Most of the ppl I've spoken to about TiVo in the past balked at the 200.00 up front cost and the sub. Most common comment was we don't need any more monthly charges. At 800+ and monthly charges an S3 wouldn't be a good value and like you said only enthusiasts would be on board and that is a small group of people and not exactly a good way to increase market share.

PS: What a run-on sentence. I should be flogged.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> The S3 is going to be released as a CableCARD 1.0 product within the next 6 months. Maybe after it's out the door then TiVo might start thinking about CableCARD 2.0.


I thought the whole reason the Series 3 had been delayed _this_ long was that they were waiting for the CableCard 2 spec to be done. Otherwise, why didn't they have it out last year?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

In my neck of the woods HD is 8.00/month ( 1 channel currently), 10.00 for digital, and 10.00 for the cable DVR. Comes to 28.00/month per room for the cable DVR.

My current set up is one digital box and two TiVo's is 29.90 per month. If I were to add the cable DVR that would increase to 39.90/month or 23.00 in the one room before adding HD. With HD it'd be 31.00 in the one room.

I don't know but I would think the cable card would be rented in place of the HD box for a savings of 5.00/month, so the S3 if it was 26.00/month after everything I could live with it, but not if it was 800.00 upfront.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo has been working on the S3 for at least a year and a half. It's highly unlikely they're going to delay it and redesign it just because a new technology that threatens to make it less useful for a small percentage of their target demographic. (as of right now TWC is the only cable company using SDV)
> 
> The S3 is going to be released as a CableCARD 1.0 product within the next 6 months. Maybe after it's out the door then TiVo might start thinking about CableCARD 2.0.
> 
> Dan


I hope your *speculation* is as accurate as it's speculative.

What is your understanding of TiVo's requirements for having the receipt for a Gift Card when using it to activate Lifetime? (as I asked in post #5 of the thread linked to above.)

I just bought a LG LST-3510A HDTV Receiver with an ATSC/QAM tuner and it appears to receive all the digital cable channels on my Comcast system except for scrambled premium channels. What is especially interesting is that apparently Comcast carries at least one PBS digital channel that isn't supposed to be available at my location and their cable box doesn't access.

It appears that Comcast's system carries channels in a kind of random pattern. Since so many services are carried it's difficult to make a complete channel map of what's available from the LST-3510A, and the tuner also has a few quirks of its own to further complicate the issue. Needless to say Comcast is of no help, and their cable box channel line-up doesn't correspond to the LST-3510A's channel order in any way.

It appears that at least one of the channels displayed by the LST-3510A is a free VOD offering. I wonder what the LST-3510A would display if it was connected to a cable outlet which supposedly was restricted to supplying analog limited basic?

TiVo should do fine with its QAM tuner w/CC 1.X.


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## puckettcg (Feb 10, 2006)

btwyx said:


> I already have done, and I intend to do so again when the S3 is available. Then I do (and will) upgrade it with more storage.
> 
> How many is that now, I've lost count.


But, as previously stated, this board is no where near representative of the population at large. And, when you paid that much previously (and I'm not counting upgrades) the cable companies weren't offering cheap alternatives.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> It appears that at least one of the channels displayed by the LST-3510A is a free VOD offering.


The way VOD currently works is that a set top box requests a VOD stream which then gets placed "un-encrypted" onto a currently unused channel. Only the STB that ordered the channel has any knowledge of the channel mapping so other STBs do not see it.

If you have another QAM tuner that does a channel scan, you will see the channel activated and be able to watch it. If the original purchaser pauses or stops the video stream, your bootleg version will also be paused.

What is really interesting is when someone orders a VOD porn show.

Needless to say, the MSOs after getting some complaints about unwanted porn in peoples homes is actively trying to roll out encryption on the VOD streams. The reason it is not currently encrypted lies in the details of how the headend plants are architected. VOD should be encrypted soon.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> Most of the ppl I've spoken to about TiVo in the past balked at the 200.00 up front cost and the sub.


You obviously don't hang out with HT enthusist. The S3 is a high end box being aimed at the HT crowd. These are the kind of people who spend thousands upon thousands on their HT setup. An $800 TiVo will seem like a bargain to them. Heck Sony had a single tuner CableCARD DVR out last year that cost $1,000 and there are quite a few people over on the AVS Forum who bought one. The point is pricing is relative to your target demographic. The S3 does NOT have the same target demographic as the S2, and that's why they're going to be able to get away with selling it for more.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmcbrine said:


> I thought the whole reason the Series 3 had been delayed _this_ long was that they were waiting for the CableCard 2 spec to be done. Otherwise, why didn't they have it out last year?


In the beginning they were trying to lobby for forced multi-stream support so that they could release a unit with just a single CableCARD slot and not have to deal with the complexity of two slots. When it was clear that wasn't going to happen they pushed on and it's taken this long to get the R&D done.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

davezatz said:


> I live in a Comcast jurisdiction... it definitely makes the decision more difficult. Trade home networking, external hard drive, and probably a few other enhancements to possibly save big bucks.


There has been no announcement saying that the Comcast unit will not support networking. The only thing they've openly denounced is the content delivery via broadband like Product Watch, TiVoCast, etc... In fact based on their early press releases things like TTG and MRV sounded like part of what they planned to offer to draw consumers to the "premium" TiVo DVR service.

Also some MSOs offer external hard drive upgrades on current Motorola hardware, so it's possible that feature could make it as well.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo Troll said:


> What is your understanding of TiVo's requirements for having the receipt for a Gift Card when using it to activate Lifetime? (as I asked in post #5 of the thread linked to above.)


You don't need a receipt. All you need is the number on the card and the number hidden under the scratch off pannel. Now the card does need to be activated by BestBuy's computer before those numbers are valid. So the reason most of the ones on eBay come with a receipt is because it proves the card was purchased and activated as opposed to being stolen. Since a stolen card would never have been activated, and as such would be invalid.

Dan


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## cbordman (May 14, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> You obviously don't hang out with HT enthusist. The S3 is a high end box being aimed at the HT crowd. These are the kind of people who spend thousands upon thousands on their HT setup. An $800 TiVo will seem like a bargain to them.
> 
> Dan


sure, but what about $1,800? If blu ray players can sell well at $1000, Tivo could easily set a price point above that.

Is there any chance that the series 3 will ONLY be available as a bundle deal through tivo.com ?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

puckettcg said:


> But, as previously stated, this board is no where near representative of the population at large. And, when you paid that much previously (and I'm not counting upgrades) the cable companies weren't offering cheap alternatives.


It's disappointing to hear that the S3 will be that expensive, but you are correct that with cable companies offering cheap alternatives it's not likely that S3 sales at the speculated prices will do very well. I hope they do well though because eventually the prices will go down as the initial inventory is depleted and the R&D costs are recouped.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> I just bought a LG LST-3510A HDTV Receiver with an ATSC/QAM tuner and it appears to receive all the digital cable channels on my Comcast system except for scrambled premium channels. What is especially interesting is that apparently Comcast carries at least one PBS digital channel that isn't supposed to be available at my location and their cable box doesn't access.It appears that Comcast's system carries channels in a kind of random pattern. Since so many services are carried it's difficult to make a complete channel map of what's available from the LST-3510A, and the tuner also has a few quirks of its own to further complicate the issue. Needless to say Comcast is of no help, and their cable box channel line-up doesn't correspond to the LST-3510A's channel order in any way. It appears that at least one of the channels displayed by the LST-3510A is a free VOD offering. I wonder what the LST-3510A would display if it was connected to a cable outlet which supposedly was restricted to supplying analog limited basic?


Any chance you live in Montgomery County, MD? I get all kinds of random things via Comcast QAM, including PPV and music channels. Comcast support is of no help and channel lineups change periodically with no rhyme, reason, or announcement. But HD without the antenna is nice.  I have a LG 3410 (upscaling DVD player + HD tuner) which is quirky (channel logos for example) as well.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cbordman said:


> sure, but what about $1,800? If blu ray players can sell well at $1000, Tivo could easily set a price point above that.
> 
> Is there any chance that the series 3 will ONLY be available as a bundle deal through tivo.com ?


Someone reported from CES that TiVo said the target price for the S3 was $500-$800. So it's unlikely it'll be that high.

As for the bundle... Unlikely. TiVo has distribution deals with BestBuy and Circuit City, so at the very least you should be able to get them there. In fact it's likely to be just like the S2DT units. i.e. you can buy it from TiVo via a bundle at a discounted price, or from a retailer at full price and have to send away for a mail in rebate.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

davezatz said:


> Any chance you live in Montgomery County, MD? I get all kinds of random things via Comcast QAM, including PPV and music channels. Comcast support is of no help and channel lineups change periodically with no rhyme, reason, or announcement. But HD without the antenna is nice.  I have a LG 3410 (upscaling DVD player + HD tuner) which is quirky (channel logos for example) as well.


I also have a QAM tuner, and in my area I only get a few channels. I get all the music stations, all the local HD channels and Sci-Fi. (the only regular digital channel broadcast in the clear)

Dan


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Sci-Fi. (the only regular digital channel broadcast in the clear)


 Awesome! I will need to rescan and see if I can get that in my area. The PPV ones have been strange - I don't think they're true HD, but I probably shouldn't be getting movies. Even if I wanted to inform Comcast, they'd have no idea what I was talking about anyway.  (I can't tell you the headaches I had trying to activate the serial port on my former 6412 with their customer service.) If more channels (other than broadcast) like SciFi, TBS, etc start showing up via QAM a $800 fee for the S3 doesn't seem as painful.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

davezatz said:


> Any chance you live in Montgomery County, MD?


Nope! I live in Washington State next to the Canadian border. That's the reason I'm especially interested in the ability to receive OTA ATSC. I bought the LG receiver thinking that I'd use it to receive digital OTA broadcasts from Vancouver, BC.

Comcast only provides two Vancouver, BC channels (which is still two more than satellite!) but I receive nine Vancouver, BC analog channels with a fancy version of rabbit ears. However OTA reception quality is only excellent on two of the nine channels (one of which Comcast carries). The other seven range from good to poor. Only two US analog channels are available OTA.

It turns out that Canada is behind the US in deploying ATSC OTA. Their *analog cut-off date* hasn't yet been set. I only receive one ATSC channel OTA and it is American. However *within a few years* it's probable that there will be a half dozen or so ATSC OTA Vancouver, BC stations available.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> Nope! I live in Washington State next to the Canadian border. That's the reason I'm especially interested in the ability to receive OTA ATSC. I bought the LG receiver thinking that I'd use it to receive digital OTA broadcasts from Vancouver, BC.


Interesting... I hadn't heard of anyone else getting PPV via unencrypted QAM before. There's also been channels/content I get that don't seem to match up to ANY listings. And now that Dan says he's getting SciFi I want to hurry home and study my channels again.

I probably drove right by your neck of the woods when I went road tripped from Seattle to Vancouver a few years ago. Of all the places of I've visited Vancouver may be my favorite city. Metropolitan and outdoorsy. It didn't hurt that the exchange rate was extremely favorable at the time.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

davezatz said:


> I have a LG 3410 (upscaling DVD player + HD tuner) which is quirky (channel logos for example) as well.


Hey; *that's neat!* I'm glad I didn't know about it before getting the LST-3510A; otherwise I'd probably have bought it. I imagine that the ATSC/QAM tuners are similiar in both models. The 3510A has a digital tuner only, coupled with a DVD player. I especially appreciate its ability to display 16 x 9 images from DVD's (and QAM) in "cropped" mode on a 4 x 3 CRT screen instead of the standard letterboxing. (It'll also squeeze the whole damned picture to make 16 x 9 fully visible on a 4 x 3 screen, but that's not for me!)

Right now, for the next 5 hours, 25 refurbed LG-3510A's w/90 day warranties are available on eBay for $135. each from one seller, and a three year extended warranty is available from SquareTrade for $16.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> Hey; *that's neat!* I'm glad I didn't know about it before getting the LST-3510A; otherwise I'd probably have bought it.


Now I'm confused and think I have the same model as you. Why can't companies use simple and sensible names like Series3 instead of LST-3x10A?  It is quirky... when watching DVDs via DVI->HDMI I have to change the resolution on the box itself (not with remote). I don't recall exactly what I paid - probably in the $250 range 2 years ago, probably refurb off ebay. It replaced a HTPC to power my projector and now powers my 30" den HD CRT.


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

davezatz said:


> Awesome! I will need to rescan and see if I can get that in my area. The PPV ones have been strange - I don't think they're true HD, but I probably shouldn't be getting movies. Even if I wanted to inform Comcast, they'd have no idea what I was talking about anyway.  (I can't tell you the headaches I had trying to activate the serial port on my former 6412 with their customer service.) If more channels (other than broadcast) like SciFi, TBS, etc start showing up via QAM a $800 fee for the S3 doesn't seem as painful.


The point of getting the Tivo S3 with cable card is so that you can receive all of the encrypted digital cable channels and not just the ones that are in the clears. So you should be able to get everything that you get now with a cable box. The only down side is that you can't order PPV or watch on demand programs, which require two-way communication.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

PhillyGuy said:


> The point of getting the Tivo S3 with cable card is so that you can receive all of the encrypted digital cable channels and not just the ones that are in the clears. So you should be able to get everything that you get now with a cable box. The only down side is that you can't order PPV or watch on demand programs, which require two-way communication.


That might be your point, but it might not be mine... OTA and unencrypted QAM are options we're willing to conisder. I may not upgrade to digital cable and rent a CableCARD if enough interesting channels are present in the clear. Until Comcast finishes converting everyone to digital anyway - at that point I'll have one less option.

FYI I don't currently use a cable box, order PPV, or watch onDemand. Though my new MovieBeam is kinda cool and I'd rather give them money than Comcast... I'm still bitter from when the installer drilled through our dresser last summer. The LG tuner we've been talking about pulls the unencrypted mostly-HD QAM channels off coax. Every now and then ESPN-HD would be welcome, but otherwise we're satisfied. Once next gen DVD players drop a bit in price maybe by the holidays, we'll replace our upscaled movies/shows with HD ones... again without Comcast's help.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Even with my limited knowledge of technology, I can't IMAGINE that selling the S3 at around $800 WON'T be giving TiVo some profit. I doubt it'll be sold at below cost.


Directv did an invester summit or somesuch at the beginning of the year. THe PPT file is floating around the net- check DBS forums and avs for the link.

Anyway- they showed their COST for HD DVR's (AKA Tivo's)- and it cost them around $600 a box. Toss in the QAM tuners, cablecard hardware and license, the SATA interface, MPEG4 chipset, and the fact that TiVo will could be producing a much smaller volume and I'd say $800 might just about cover it.

Let's say that they figured out how to make them cheaper than the years old HD tivo so they save a few bucks and by selling at $800 they actually get $50 or $100 more for the box then the cost per unit- it's still not makign up for all the development costs. So teh Series 3 wont make them any kind of "hardware" profit of substance.

_edit:_ found the link:
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/12/127160/FINALSlidesInvestorDay2-22-06.pdf
slide #27. Looks like my memory was a bit off. Currently it looks like it's around $550 per box. Started out at $700 per box in 2004. So maybe they can squeeze their cost down something below $800 even with all the new bits.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bicker said:


> No. I was implying that there may not be a price-point that is amenable to both customers and suppliers. Not everything that can be sold should be sold, and sometimes doing something _really well_ isn't sufficiently rewarded by marketplace. Sometimes, in the long-run, we (the big WE -- the general public) gets what it deserves, i.e., cable company DVRs instead of TiVos.


very good point


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

PhillyGuy said:


> The point of getting the Tivo S3 with cable card is so that you can receive all of the encrypted digital cable channels and not just the ones that are in the clears. So you should be able to get everything that you get now with a cable box. The only down side is that you can't order PPV or watch on demand programs, which require two-way communication.


Comcast provides one non-DVR digital cable box which accesses VOD with any level of digital service, so that box and a Series 3 TiVo will cover all the bases. Comcast offers a *huge selection* of VOD programs and many of them are free. The page linked to is just the "A" page of the 27 page alphanumeric list!


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## thechiz (Oct 3, 2005)

How much less is the Comcast non-DVR digital cable box with HD service compared to a HD DVR box rental with DVR and HD service ?

If its not much you might as well go all the way and get the HD DVR,
in addition to the Series 3 TiVo.
Then you'll probably have like 50-60 hours of HD recording space instead of 
about say 25-30 with TiVo Series 3. And you'll be able to record 4 HD
stations simultaneously ! Maybe one night your family wants to see
ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX ....

And if thats overkill, and you want a cheaper alternative with no
user-friendly TiVo bells and whistles just don't get the Series 3.
And you can still pause/FF/Rewind on-demand and PPV with your Cable HD DVR.

He says quickly ducking.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

davezatz said:


> That might be your point, but it might not be mine... OTA and unencrypted QAM are options we're willing to conisder. I may not upgrade to digital cable and rent a CableCARD if enough interesting channels are present in the clear. Until Comcast finishes converting everyone to digital anyway - at that point I'll have one less option.
> 
> FYI I don't currently use a cable box, order PPV, or watch onDemand. Though my new MovieBeam is kinda cool and I'd rather give them money than Comcast... I'm still bitter from when the installer drilled through our dresser last summer. The LG tuner we've been talking about pulls the unencrypted mostly-HD QAM channels off coax. Every now and then ESPN-HD would be welcome, but otherwise we're satisfied. Once next gen DVD players drop a bit in price maybe by the holidays, we'll replace our upscaled movies/shows with HD ones... again without Comcast's help.


I just got a 2nd HDTV with a QUM tuner (my first HDTV uses the Moto 3412 DVR backed up by a TiVo) and you could get all the HD stations on my Comcast cable, I got the cable card for the TV because for $3/month I did not have to deal with ABC being 88-9 CBS 82-4 etc. I don't know if S 3 will use that type of data for HD recording so then if you did not want the CC you could record the non encrypted HD stations for a lot less money (expanded basic would be all you needed and that would save about $30/month)


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

thechiz said:


> How much less is the Comcast non-DVR digital cable box with HD service compared to a HD DVR box rental with DVR and HD service ?
> 
> If its not much you might as well go all the way and get the HD DVR,
> in addition to the Series 3 TiVo.
> ...


Short answer, in my area; $10. monthly for dual tuner hi-def DVR with (small for hi-def) 120GB HD.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

ah30k said:


> The way VOD currently works is that a set top box requests a VOD stream which then gets placed "un-encrypted" onto a currently unused channel. Only the STB that ordered the channel has any knowledge of the channel mapping so other STBs do not see it.
> 
> If you have another QAM tuner that does a channel scan, you will see the channel activated and be able to watch it. If the original purchaser pauses or stops the video stream, your bootleg version will also be paused.
> 
> ...


I hope so. I've recently compiled a manual channel map of Comcast channels that can be received with a non-Comcast QAM tuner. Several non-scrambled channels carry VOD content. But watching VOD this way is like being in the Twilight Zone.

First of all, any given VOD channel appears to time-out after 10 minutes or so and the VOD program on it switches arbitrarily. There doesn't appear to be any continuity between themes so I assume that programs being ordered by different customers are being randomly rotated through Comcast's VOD channels! But while a given VOD segment is on, the VOD channel presents the program as ah30k describes it. Non-scrambled VOD appears to run the gamut between free re-runs of current programs, through porn, to the latest PPV movies.

Porn shouldn't be available this way, even inadvertantly. It's porn with voyeurism thrown in and cable customers can apparently be figuratively spied on at any time and never know it!


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Technology for encrypting VOD is available - it's just not widely in use right now.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

davezatz said:


> Now I'm confused and think I have the same model as you. Why can't companies use simple and sensible names like Series3 instead of LST-3x10A?  It is quirky... when watching DVDs via DVI->HDMI I have to change the resolution on the box itself (not with remote). I don't recall exactly what I paid - probably in the $250 range 2 years ago, probably refurb off ebay. It replaced a HTPC to power my projector and now powers my 30" den HD CRT.


I just bought an *LG LST3410* on eBay at a fairly good price. It's presently en route via FedEx. It'll be interesting to see how well or poorly this recorder works, even though it's limited by a relatively small HD. I'll post comments after awhile.


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## Rolander (Nov 13, 2005)

I'm sorry, for VOD wouldnt' it be easier for TiVO to develop some sort of API style ability to request VOD from cable company XXX for Tivo Box XXX using the internet connection? 

That way there's no waiting around for CC 2.0?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Rolander said:


> I'm sorry, for VOD wouldnt' it be easier for TiVO to develop some sort of API style ability to request VOD from cable company XXX for Tivo Box XXX using the internet connection?
> 
> That way there's no waiting around for CC 2.0?


This would require TiVo to either develop a "standard" protocol for all MSOs to follow, or TiVo would have to negotiate with each MSO as to how this will be implemented. Neither option appears simple.


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## Troy J B (Sep 27, 2003)

drew2k said:


> This would require TiVo to either develop a "standard" protocol for all MSOs to follow, or TiVo would have to negotiate with each MSO as to how this will be implemented. Neither option appears simple.


Also the MSO's have no incentive to help a competitor, they would much rather you continue to use their cable boxes.

Troy


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## Rolander (Nov 13, 2005)

drew2k said:


> This would require TiVo to either develop a "standard" protocol for all MSOs to follow, or TiVo would have to negotiate with each MSO as to how this will be implemented. Neither option appears simple.


So the technology is easy, just needs the right hype.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

No what it needs is for the CableCARD 2.0 spec to get finished. Not MSO is going to help develope a proprietary communication protocol with a competitor if they don't have to. Especially when they know that once CableCARD 2.0 is finished they're going to be required to support it anyway.

In a couple years there should be standard which allows VOD and PPV, until then you'll either have to live without it or use your cable companies DVR.

Dan


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

I always figured it'd be years before I would own an S3 because I don't feel like spending $thousands on an HD TV and then another $500 or $1000 (whatever the price is going to be) on an S3.

But I just heard a financial talk show where they predicted that by this Xmas, stores will be selling 42" flat panel HD TVs for $500. Wow!, if that's true. It makes me think an HD TV is not in my far-off future after all. But then, I still might want to wait until the S3 price drops, if it's going to start out expensive, so if the S3 is destined for future large price droppage, I doubt I'll be wanting to get one this year. But my point is that maybe it won't be so far off in the future as I've been thinking.

Now, I'm starting to care more about the lack of lifetime on S3's.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I hope that's true. I'd love to upgrade the smaller TVs around the house to HDTV.

Dan


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## guerro (Dec 20, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> Then why make that type of ridiculous, inflammatory statement? Most certainly no one is paying $12.95/mo. for "recording". My $$ is going for the excellent UI, program guide, TiVo features, CS and reliability.


I don't know where all these things are that your $$ is going for. Personally, my tivo has turned into a heap of steaming horse feces since the last software update. Some people don't really want to have all the offered features on their tivos. They just want them to work quickly and correctly. Why should I have to pay $13 per month to be mentally tortured by my now crippled tivo recording unit?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

guerro said:


> Why should I have to pay $13 per month to be mentally tortured by my now crippled tivo recording unit?


Because other forms of mental torture are much more expensive?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

timckelley said:


> I just heard a financial talk show where they predicted that by this Xmas, stores will be selling 42" flat panel HD TVs for $500. Wow!, if that's true.


Well, at least we'll know for sure within 6 months. But I bet $50. that you won't see new (not refurbed) 42" flat panel HDTV's (not EDTV) for that price this year.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> I hope that's true. I'd love to upgrade the smaller TVs around the house to HDTV.
> 
> Dan


Me too! However, many of us will be waiting until March of next year to do that because none of the flat panel TVs below 26" have the ATSC tuners right now. I won't ever buy a CRT TV again and I won't buy any flat panel TV at this point that doesn't have an ATSC tuner. After March (as has been discussed on TCF many times) the FCC rules mandate that all TVs (and other devices) have the ATSC tuner.

I suppose smaller flat panel TVs with ATSC tuners will show up before March, but I won't hold my breath.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Welshdog said:


> I won't ever buy a CRT TV again


I'm quite happy with mine.

See sig.

phox


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

guerro said:


> I don't know where all these things are that your $$ is going for. Personally, my tivo has turned into a heap of steaming horse feces since the last software update. Some people don't really want to have all the offered features on their tivos. They just want them to work quickly and correctly. Why should I have to pay $13 per month to be mentally tortured by my now crippled tivo recording unit?


Sorry you're having a bad time with your TiVo. Mine's worked flawlessly the past 2-1/2 years. And I'm on the most current software.


phox_mulder said:


> I'm quite happy with mine.
> 
> See sig.
> 
> phox


Me, too. CRTs render the truest colors. As any professional graphic designer.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> I just bought an *LG LST3410* on eBay at a fairly good price. It's presently en route via FedEx. It'll be interesting to see how well or poorly this recorder works, even though it's limited by a relatively small HD. I'll post comments after awhile.


As I already posted on another thread the DVR has a b.o. HD.

One notable thing that I don't like about it (everything works except for DVR functions) is that although the LST3410A has separate coax inputs for cable and OTA a user has to choose one or the other before running TV Guide OS set-up. So it appears that TV Guide OS won't present an integrated EPG with both cable and OTA listings. More on TV Guide OS capabilities for mixed digital and analog sources after it populates overnight.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> CRTs render the truest colors. As any professional graphic designer.


I was a graphics designer in broadcast TV for 12 years and since then have been a professional video editor for 12 years as well so I'm wit' ya on the accuracy of CRTs. At work they aren't a problem, but at home I can't stand the bulk of the things. I like the smaller footprint and low impact on our interior design. Plus CRTs are environmental trouble makers, mostly due to the lead content of the glass. I know, I know LCDs are not truly "green" but they are better than CRTs when you look at the whole picture (pun). In the broadcast world Sony is going to (or already has) ceased to manufacture CRT tubes for the above mentioned enviro reasons.

So for me the LCDs seem the best choice. And down the road the Toshiba/Canon SED displays hold much promise for carrying the SMPTE torch when it comes to color accuracy and contrast.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

phox_mulder said:


> I'm quite happy with mine.
> 
> See sig.
> 
> phox


Me too! In a couple of places where I've got 20" CRT's anything wider just wouldn't fit. And where else can you get reliable picture quality that lasts for years for under $100.?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Welshdog said:


> ...In the broadcast world Sony is going to (or already has) ceased to manufacture CRT tubes for the above mentioned enviro reasons.
> 
> So for me the LCDs seem the best choice. And down the road the Toshiba/Canon SED displays hold much promise for carrying the SMPTE torch when it comes to color accuracy and contrast.


Welsh, that it truly sad that CRTs are becoming a thing of the past. I understand the size and environmental issues, but I've had a Hitachi 51UWX20B for four years now, and it's been magnificent. Of course, it was a bear to get into my basement family room! So you're saying these SED displays are the future, eh? I'm not familiar with them.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> Welsh, ...you're saying these SED displays are the future, eh? I'm not familiar with them.


Me neither, but Google can turn anyone into a *smarty*!


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

They have been talking about SEDs for several years, but they are building the plant and expect to have them for sale in the Fall of 2007. We are very interested in them at the post house where I work. Since they use phosphors and electrons just like a CRT their chromaticity performance should be identical to CRTs. And maybe even better. They most definitely will have superior resolution.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679235p1.html

http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/sed/eng/index.htm

http://www.canon.com/technology/canon_tech/explanation/sed.html

Can't wait!


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## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

For General Info on SED see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display

Tim S


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Welshdog said:


> I won't ever buy a CRT TV again and I won't buy any flat panel TV at this point that doesn't have an ATSC tuner.


Se I'm on the other end of the scale. I NEVER watch live TV so an ATSC tuner is just a waste to me. I would rather pay less for a TV without ATSC and spend the savings on a system to distribute my S3 TiVo's signal through the house. (HDMI blauns seem like they'll be my best bet)

Dan


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Sorry you're having a bad time with your TiVo. Mine's worked flawlessly the past 2-1/2 years. And I'm on the most current software.


My three have worked great for the past 5, 3 and 2 years.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Me, too. CRTs render the truest colors.


I'm a CRT fan as well... best viewing angle and performs well regardless of ambient light. I love my 30" Panny, which will move to the bedroom once I accidentally break our 32" SD JVC. The only problem is I can't move either of them by myself.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

davezatz said:


> I'm a CRT fan as well... best viewing angle and performs well regardless of ambient light. I love my 30" Panny, which will move to the bedroom once I accidentally break our 32" SD JVC. The only problem is I can't move either of them by myself.


Yep; I maxed out on a 27" CRT because it's the largest size that I can move all-by-self!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

davezatz said:


> I'm a CRT fan as well... best viewing angle and performs well regardless of ambient light. I love my 30" Panny, which will move to the bedroom once I accidentally break our 32" SD JVC. The only problem is I can't move either of them by myself.


Dave - I'd love to help you....but I'm a little busy right now in the midwest. Actually, my son gets married this Saturday at Turkey Run State Park in Indiana, so we're in Indianapolis right now for the preps (getting tuxes, etc.). Just hoping the heat breaks and there's no rain Saturday...it's an outside wedding!

But, I digress  my Hitachi will probably have to be dismantled to be moved! It checks in at about 250 pounds. You should have seen us the day we brought it into the basement family room. Two delivery guys and me....what a scene!


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Welshdog said:


> They have been talking about SEDs for several years, but they are building the plant and expect to have them for sale in the Fall of 2007. We are very interested in them at the post house where I work. Since they use phosphors and electrons just like a CRT their chromaticity performance should be identical to CRTs. And maybe even better. They most definitely will have superior resolution.
> 
> http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679235p1.html
> 
> ...


SED sets will be expensive, partially because it's new but also because it apparently will be the technology of choice for larger top-of-the-line sets. I sense a bit of *advertising hype* behind the descriptions of the technology.


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

The big S3 news is... There is none!!!


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> Yep; I maxed out on a 27" CRT because it's the largest size that I can move all-by-self!


I've had to move my 36" Mitsubishi CRT by myself on three occasions. It is NOT fun, but it can be done, though I just moved it about 15 feet into and out of an armoire.

I just moved and it took two movers and a lot of huffing and puffing to get it up the stairs.

In contrast, I was able to move my 50" plasma up two flights of stairs (still in the box) by myself, and the movers had no problem with it. I don't think I'll ever buy a CRT again, my old 19" CRT computer monitor weighed in at 90 pounds!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Welshdog said:


> Me too! However, many of us will be waiting until March of next year to do that because none of the flat panel TVs below 26" have the ATSC tuners right now. I won't ever buy a CRT TV again and I won't buy any flat panel TV at this point that doesn't have an ATSC tuner. After March (as has been discussed on TCF many times) the FCC rules mandate that all TVs (and other devices) have the ATSC tuner.
> 
> I suppose smaller flat panel TVs with ATSC tuners will show up before March, but I won't hold my breath.


actually many of the smaller LCD's DO come with an ATSC tuner.

smaller CRT's seem to be devoid of them, but many of the sub 25inch LCD's have 'em.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

My 50" DLP only weighs about 70lbs. But it's too big for one person to move by theirself.

We also have a 27" Sony WEGA and that thing weighs at least 150lbs. The few times I've moved that by myself it left me huffing and puffing big time.

Dan


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> actually many of the smaller LCD's DO come with an ATSC tuner.
> smaller CRT's seem to be devoid of them, but many of the sub 25inch LCD's have 'em.


Really? 16:9 HD LCD flat panel sets? I haven't seen any. I just checked Samsung's site for LCD flat panels under 26" and none of them are ATSC. Same with Sharp and Toshiba.

What am I missing?


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

TiVo Troll said:


> SED sets will be expensive, partially because it's new but also because it apparently will be the technology of choice for larger top-of-the-line sets. I sense a bit of *advertising hype* behind the descriptions of the technology.


Yes the hype is always there, but they have spent $1.7 Billion on a new plant in Japan so they are serious. They want to start with big screens because of their higher profit margins and high current demand in the US for bigger and bigger screens.

In my industry (video post production) the hope is that these new displays will step in to replace the CRTs. At NAB this year there was a lot of talk about SED being the answer. It's a gamble for Toshiba and Canon, but if gives us better images then I'm all for it.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

I think it seems too good to be true, but I really REALLY hope it won't have a fatal flaw.

*CRT* - best brightness and contrast, truest colour. Cons: Size, weight, resolution.
*LCD* - flat form factor, high resolution, no burn-in. Cons: Contrast, brightness, price is high for larger screen sizes.
*Plasma* - flat form factor, high resolution, richer colour than LCD, lower price at large screen sizes. Cons: Burn in! Still much more expensive than a CRT.

If SED sets will take the best parts of all of these technologies (CRT picture, LCD form factor, plasma's resolution) and have no downside then it will truly be the TV of the future.

I'm still waiting at least 2 years before buying one; let the early adopters iron out the problems and drop the price, and I'm there.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

classicX said:


> *Plasma* - flat form factor, high resolution, richer colour than LCD, lower price at large screen sizes. Cons: Burn in! Still much more expensive than a CRT.


To be fair Plasmas don't have much of a burn in problem thesee days. However they are engergy hogs - worst of all the displays. And I'm not sure on this, are there any native 1080 screen resolution Plasmas? When I finally buy my main display for the home theater system I won't get anything that isn't 1080 native.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Also aside from being energy hogs and burn in problems from what I hear the bulb life of Plasmas is short relative to LCDs as well.


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## dr_mal (Mar 21, 2001)

I don't recall seeing any 1080 plasmas, so I certainly wouldn't consider "resolution" to be a plus for that format.


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## RF_Eng (Dec 21, 2001)

moyekj said:


> Also aside from being energy hogs and burn in problems from what I hear the bulb life of Plasmas is short relative to LCDs as well.


There are no bulbs in Plasma TVs. the light is created by phosphors excited by a plasma discharge between two flat panels of glass so no bulbs. Real life measurements of plasma power consumption find it to be much less than that normally quoted by manufacturers. Nominal measurements indicate 150 Watts for a 50" screen.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

classicX said:


> I think it seems too good to be true, but I really REALLY hope it won't have a fatal flaw.
> 
> *CRT* - best brightness and contrast, truest colour. Cons: Size, weight, resolution.
> *LCD* - flat form factor, high resolution, no burn-in. Cons: Contrast, brightness, price is high for larger screen sizes.
> ...


You forgot that with CRT and Plasma the viewing angle is better. LCD, DLP, and other projection types have fade out when viewed at an angle.


----------



## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

RF_Eng said:


> Real life measurements of plasma power consumption find it to be much less than that normally quoted by manufacturers. Nominal measurements indicate 150 Watts for a 50" screen.


Did someone do a study on that or did you just put an ammeter on your display?
Either way that's good to know.

What about LCDs? Do they have the same disparity between specs and real world?

What area of RF is your specialty?


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Welshdog said:


> Did someone do a study on that or did you just put an ammeter on your display?
> Either way that's good to know.
> 
> What about LCDs? Do they have the same disparity between specs and real world?
> ...


On my 32" LCD panel, power consumption varies between 110 and 170 watts, depending upon the backlight setting. Usually it is in the 130 watt range.


----------



## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

vman41 said:


> On my 32" LCD panel, power consumption varies between 110 and 170 watts, depending upon the backlight setting. Usually it is in the 130 watt range.


My 37" Plasma consumes about 210W on average, that's the equivalent of 157 W for a 32". (I run it bright, and its 4 years old, new ones are supposed to be more efficient.) I've never seen any figures which show Plasma displays are particularly power hungry anymore. That's if you calculate it on a per screen area basis. Plasma displays tend to be larger and brighter than a lot of the competition. If they use more power, its becuase they're delivering more light.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Just wanted to mention that, yes, I have not heard any S3 news.


----------



## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Welshdog said:


> Yes the hype is always there, but they have spent $1.7 Billion on a new plant in Japan so they are serious. They want to start with big screens because of their higher profit margins and high current demand in the US for bigger and bigger screens.
> 
> In my industry (video post production) the hope is that these new displays will step in to replace the CRTs. At NAB this year there was a lot of talk about SED being the answer. It's a gamble for Toshiba and Canon, but if gives us better images then I'm all for it.


I agree, and the potential is there, but not this year, and not for under $1000. for a few years more.

Right now, 20" to 27" standard-def CRT TV's provide the most bang for the buck that TV has ever offered!


----------



## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> actually many of the smaller LCD's DO come with an ATSC tuner.
> 
> smaller CRT's seem to be devoid of them, but many of the sub 25inch LCD's have 'em.


I'd rather have an ATSC/QAM STB than an ATSC/QAM internal tuner on all sizes of TV's precisely because the STB can output the signal to a DVR and DVD recorder while integrated tuners usually can't. Even when a DVR can't control a STB it can still record from it. But the control issue is a weakness of all current DVR's.

It appears that that the LG TV Guide OS used on its *discontinued hi-def DVR* can be manually re-mapped for any channel it lists. IOW, it can assign all analog listings from a cable service to their associated digital channels and display the digital channels in both standard or hi-def.

If LG's offering, which doesn't provide many of TiVo's capabilities, can do that, Series 3 hopefully will too! (IMHO, Series 2's should be upgraded to do the same for standard-def.)


----------



## johnner1999 (Oct 26, 2002)

while we are talking about power useage -- how much power does a 50" lcd projection set use?


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Welshdog said:


> Really? 16:9 HD LCD flat panel sets? I haven't seen any. I just checked Samsung's site for LCD flat panels under 26" and none of them are ATSC. Same with Sharp and Toshiba.
> 
> What am I missing?


I thought I saw some at circuit city but when I look at their website they all look to be HD ready- sorry


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> You forgot that with CRT and Plasma the viewing angle is better. LCD, DLP, and other projection types have fade out when viewed at an angle.


Directv View LCD's dont have the viewing angle issues of projection TV's.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

johnner1999 said:


> while we are talking about power useage -- how much power does a 50" lcd projection set use?


I dont know about larger sizes, but I do know that for computer monitors in the 19 or less range that energy consumption makes total cost of ownership cheaper than CRTs I work for a large pharmaceutical and they have studied it plan to stop buying crts for PCs because of it.

here's an article about cnet that gives watts per inch for differnt technologies and specifics for 20 sets

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-6400401-2.html

says panasonic 52 inch uses 172 watts, 7 watts during standby


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Welshdog said:


> And I'm not sure on this, are there any native 1080 screen resolution Plasmas?





dr_mal said:


> I don't recall seeing any 1080 plasmas, so I certainly wouldn't consider "resolution" to be a plus for that format.


The Pioneer PRO-FHD1 is a 50" 1080p plasma monitor (_ie_ no tuner). Of course, it also costs $10K...


----------



## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> Just wanted to mention that, yes, I have not heard any S3 news.


Any speculation on when we will hear more news?


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> Any speculation on when we will hear more news?


I speculate we will hear more news when it is released or at the next earnings call, whichever comes first


----------



## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I speculate we will hear more news when it isreleased of at the next eranings call, whichever comes first


eranings call???


----------



## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I speculate we will hear more news when it is released or at the next earnings call, whichever comes first


If I were a complete prick, I would point out that since not a single non-prototype S3 has appeared anywhere, and since TiVo doesn't have any "earnings," we could be waiting a long time for that news.

Good thing I'm a nice, sweet guy.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Until the S3 is released all the S3 units in existance are prototypes! So what's your point?

And FYI TiVoPony showed off a S3 at TC Con in Vegas this June, and it had the same model number as the one approved by CableLabs, so that's pretty solid evidence that they're beyond the actual prototyping phase.

Dan


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> If I were a complete prick, I would point out that since not a single non-prototype S3 has appeared anywhere, and since TiVo doesn't have any "earnings," we could be waiting a long time for that news.
> 
> Good thing I'm a nice, sweet guy.


well no humor in that post since the "non-prototypes" are most likely being beta tested and thus will not be visible. Has always been that way for TiVo inc.

plus you always have earnings calls - just may not be reporting profits from that revenue is all.

bbzzzttt - try again later.


----------



## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Until the S3 is released all the S3 units in existance are prototypes!


Yes, I suppose if you define 'prototype' as 'any unit in existence before general release,' then you'd reach that conclusion.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I guess we could call them "pre-production" instead, but that's just symantics. And if we did that then your original statement would be completely wrong, since TiVoPony showed a "pre-production" unit off at TC Con in Vegas. 

Dan


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> Yes, I suppose if you define 'prototype' as 'any unit in existence before general release,' then you'd reach that conclusion.


Based on your definition then, no beta test S3s have appeared anywhere, ie. out in the field somewhere. So, no leaks so far, but I bet they are out there.



ChuckyBox said:


> If I were a complete prick, I would point out that since not a single non-prototype S3 has appeared anywhere, and since TiVo doesn't have any "earnings," we could be waiting a long time for that news.
> 
> Good thing I'm a nice, sweet guy.


OK, I'll be the prick. They might have earnings if they weren't following the marketing plan you like so much. But maybe they'll say something about S3 at the Losings Conference Call in September...

or Maybe it'll ship before the call.


----------



## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

So since we have been discussing displays and S3s, here's I what I hope will happen. Flat panel displays are still expected to drop in price a lot more this year. The holidays should bring some pretty good deals on the LCDs I'm interested in. By then the S3 should be out and folks will have torn it to shreds - err I mean given it a fair review here on TCF. My hope is that it will meet my needs and then my wife and I can engage in our silly Xmas ritual of giving each other big electronic gifts that the other one often covets. She'll give me an S3 and I'll give her a 40" 1080p LCD display. The last time we did this I got a Denon 3805 and she got a Toshivo RS-TX60.

Ahh the holidays! Best way to keep my fat wallet slim.


----------



## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the "non-prototypes" are most likely being beta tested and thus will not be visible.


So you believe that invisiblity is stronger proof of existence than of non-existence?



> plus you always have earnings calls - just may not be reporting profits from that revenue is all.


The terms "earnings" and "profits" are synonyms. You would have made a better argument by pointing out that TiVo does have earnings, they just happen to be negative.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Or maybe it will ship before the call and they'll say something about it on the call too.

Or maybe it'll ship after the call, but they'll say something before the call and/maybe also at the call.

Or maybe it'll ship and they'll forget to say anything until someone notices it shipped and nothing was said.

Or maybe it will be offered for sale before it ships and someone will say nothing about that but someone else will post about it in the Forum.

Or maybe someone will trip over an invisible beta-test unit and TiVo will be forced to decloak the rest of them by its insurance company, at which point someone may say, 'look! there's a visible beta unit.'


----------



## classicX (May 10, 2006)

or maybe we can stop speculating about a call that may or may not take place and get back to speculating on the S3!


----------



## getgray (Mar 2, 2006)

I only come back once in a while to check. For some reson this thread dosent' mail me although I'm subscribed. Apparantly mostly chatter anyway.

STILL NO NEWS? WTF.

tick tock. pfft.


----------



## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> I guess we could call them "pre-production" instead, but that's just symantics. And if we did that then your original statement would be completely wrong, since TiVoPony showed a "pre-production" unit off at TC Con in Vegas.


Which was reported to be the same box that was shown at CES in January. It was probably just an S2DT stuffed into a funky case with some blinking lights. You guys were all too drunk to notice that it wasn't HD.

I want to see a box that came off the assembly line, all gleaming bright and wrapped in far too much environmentally destructive packaging. Then I'll believe.


----------



## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> They might have earnings if they weren't following the marketing plan you like so much.


It's not clear to me how a pricing plan that's been in place for four or five of what are historically TiVo's slowest sales months, and has yet to be aggressively promoted, could be responsible for TiVo's expected net loss this quarter.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jeffrypennock said:


> Any speculation on when we will hear more news?


I think we can expect more speculation, at least, next week.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> I want to see a box that came off the assembly line, all gleaming bright


I'm expecting more of a matte finish.


----------



## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

davezatz said:


> I'm expecting more of a matte finish.


But there will be scads of styrofoam, right? And lots of useless extra pieces needlessy wrapped in plastic, right? And needless bits of paper and card stock wrapped in plastic bags and held closed with tape and stickers? And the twist ties! There must be at least ten!

I can't feel good about a CE purchase unless the offal is responsible for annihilating at least one waterfowl rookery.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> So you believe that invisiblity is stronger proof of existence than of non-existence?


 No I take the fact that TiVo never shows the Beta units as proof that any Beta units will not be visible. The DT was not known about until very shortly before it released. The S3 is somewhat different in that it is an entirely different part of the product line from an S3 so we saw the prototypes at CES.



> The terms "earnings" and "profits" are synonyms. You would have made a better argument by pointing out that TiVo does have earnings, they just happen to be negative.


 if I apply for a Job with Delloite and Touche (sp?) I will try to treat earnings and profits as a similar unit of measure that needs to be signed properly.


----------



## carrybagman (Feb 9, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> But there will be scads of styrofoam, right? And lots of useless extra pieces needlessy wrapped in plastic, right? And needless bits of paper and card stock wrapped in plastic bags and held closed with tape and stickers? And the twist ties! There must be at least ten!
> 
> I can't feel good about a CE purchase unless the offal is responsible for annihilating at least one waterfowl rookery.


Just make sure there's a Tivo window sticker in there!!!


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

ChuckyBox said:


> But there will be scads of styrofoam, right? And lots of useless extra pieces needlessy wrapped in plastic, right? And needless bits of paper and card stock wrapped in plastic bags and held closed with tape and stickers? And the twist ties! There must be at least ten!
> 
> I can't feel good about a CE purchase unless the offal is responsible for annihilating at least one waterfowl rookery.


And a product registration card that signs you up for junk mail. Can't be a real consumer product without one of those.


----------



## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Kablemodem said:


> And a product registration card that signs you up for junk mail. Can't be a real consumer product without one of those.


Goes without saying. Though I prefer to register online so I can get both junk mail _and_ spam. I know spam doesn't waste a lot of energy, but as I see it, each wasted electron brings mankind that much closer to the total domination of the planet.

Speaking of which, TiVo hooked me up with BMW, and I just got the glossy brochure for the M5 and M6. I'm pretty sure I need (not "want," "need") a 500hp V-10 now. Sure, a V-8 may be good enough for Michael Schumacher, but he doesn't have air conditioning and an eleven-speaker sound system.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Prolly just a rumor, but a good friend of mine was recently in the market for a flat screen HDTV and some one told him the S3 was out there, I know I know, couldn't be. He was also told the price was 900.00. Think some of the B&M stores are getting early release models to test with and use?


----------



## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> Prolly just a rumor, but a good friend of mine was recently in the market for a flat screen HDTV and some one told him the S3 was out there, I know I know, couldn't be. He was also told the price was 900.00. Think some of the B&M stores are getting early release models to test with and use?


Well that, and do we anticipate the B&M stores getting it before online vendors?


----------



## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> Prolly just a rumor, but a good friend of mine was recently in the market for a flat screen HDTV and some one told him the S3 was out there, I know I know, couldn't be. He was also told the price was 900.00. Think some of the B&M stores are getting early release models to test with and use?


I don't think there is any way the S3 will be sold openly without a Press Release of some kind from TiVo. I expect we will see E-mail invites from TiVo to buy from them slightly ahead of the release date in the same way they did with the S2DT.


----------



## TravisKU (Nov 26, 2001)

I'm hoping the Series 3 comes out soon. The new fall season is right around the corner and I like to save shows for watching the following winter/summer re-run season. 

Come on TiVo, we've waited long enough 

Travis


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

How 'bout they throw us the email and let us buy early with the Beta software?

I'd likely fork over the cash now. Hardware design must be frozen by now- so what is it for pony to duplicate a couple hard drives with the beta software and put em together in his cube?

LOL


----------



## DTSDude (May 24, 2006)

nhaigh said:


> I don't think there is any way the S3 will be sold openly without a Press Release of some kind from TiVo. I expect we will see E-mail invites from TiVo to buy from them slightly ahead of the release date in the same way they did with the S2DT.


You mean you didn't get your copy of the email?


----------



## msu2k (Jan 4, 2001)

tstowell said:


> I'm hoping the Series 3 comes out soon. The new fall season is right around the corner and I like to save shows for watching the following winter/summer re-run season.
> 
> Come on TiVo, we've waited long enough
> 
> Travis


Having a Series 3 by the time the fall season starts would be oh so nice. Honestly though, I'm just hoping to have it by the time for when Miracle on 34th Street and It's a Wonderful Life come on.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm still holding to my original prediction of August 28th. Although as it draws near I'm getting less and less confident of that date.

In any case I really hope it comes out in time for the Fall season. I don't want to have to deal with my MOXI again. 

Dan


----------



## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> In any case I really hope it comes out in time for the Fall season.


I concur.

I want to be able to see all the new shows in HD from the start,
not have to pick and choose two a night to get with the HR10-250.

(well, not all the new shows, there are a few I'll never watch)

phox


----------



## ReikiBoy (Mar 23, 2006)

I have a Toshiba digital TV with a cable card. I've been having a fair bit of trouble with it. Certain channels pixelate/tile quite often without affecting other channels (41-45 CNNs, 63 Animal Planet). When all the digital and HD's start pixelating then I need to unplug it from the wall to do a cold boot which happens every few days. The problem varies with the Toshiba software updates. It can happen at any time and has caused me to miss programs that I wanted to record. 

Someone in another forum had a theory that it has to do with how the cable company encodes the signal. That the decryption key is changed every so often and it requires rebooting the TV in order for the TV to download the new one. 

My guess is that Tivo has to work out these problems. If they know how to get around them then I wish their software developers would call Toshiba and let them know how to do it.


----------



## dylanursula (Jan 5, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> I'm still holding to my original prediction of August 28th. Although as it draws near I'm getting less and less confident of that date.
> 
> In any case I really hope it comes out in time for the Fall season. I don't want to have to deal with my MOXI again.
> 
> Dan


Dan,

Is that date a guess or is it being driven by anything; you are getting me all kinds of excited lol 

Cheers
D


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Actually it's wishful thinking because the 28th is my birthday.

The only thing we really have to go on is the Idol Speculation contest rules, which promised the delivery of the grand prize (a S3) with in 4 months. The 4 month mark is actually sometime in mid September, and there was some wording that let them get out of that deadline if need be. So really it could be any time. I just thought it would be a good gift if they released them on my birthday. 

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

ReikiBoy said:


> My guess is that Tivo has to work out these problems. If they know how to get around them then I wish their software developers would call Toshiba and let them know how to do it.


You're right on traget with that. For the Toshiba TV CableCARD is kind of a suplimentry after thought. For the S3 TiVo the entire functionality of the device will depend on the CableCARDs working properly, and I'm willing to bet that TiVo has put a lot of time and effort into making 100% sure they can get them to work reliably.

Then again we wont really know until the S3s are out there and we start getting reports as to how well they work.

Dan


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## Leo Valiant (Apr 19, 2000)

TiVoPony hasn't been posting much lately. He tends to do that when something is getting close. 

Whatcha so busy on Pony?


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Leo Valiant said:


> ...Whatcha so busy on Pony?


I think he's checking out my signature


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Actually it's wishful thinking because the 28th is my birthday.
> 
> The only thing we really have to go on is the Idol Speculation contest rules, which promised the delivery of the grand prize (a S3) with in 4 months. The 4 month mark is actually sometime in mid September, and there was some wording that let them get out of that deadline if need be. So really it could be any time. I just thought it would be a good gift if they released them on my birthday.
> 
> Dan


Hey Dan was there a page on Tivo's site to check for Idol Speculation winners? I'm sure there was, but i can't find it.

<Edit>
Duh-oh! Here it is, winner already announced.  
http://blog.tivo.com/tivo_blog/2006/06/introducing_cli.html


----------



## dylanursula (Jan 5, 2005)

When do Tivo Inc make their quarterly results statements? May be some news then???


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I don't think that happens until the end of September.

Dan


----------



## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

dylanursula said:


> When do Tivo Inc make their quarterly results statements? May be some news then???


Probably 8-25.

Previous Q2 reports were in the last week of August.


----------



## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I don't think that happens until the end of September.
> 
> Dan


Aren't you the guy that thought Aug 28th is the last Monday of the 3rd quarter?


----------



## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

Leo Valiant said:


> TiVoPony hasn't been posting much lately. He tends to do that when something is getting close.
> 
> Whatcha so busy on Pony?


You mean he gets quiet beofre something big approaches or his postings ramp up as something big approaches?


----------



## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

Wikipedia says that the s3 will be out very soon, possibly before the end of this month. But I see no indication that this is based on anything other than the "soon" letter FCC, which certainly doesn't indicate a timeline as specific before the end of August...however, since we know that everything in Wikipedia is true, it must be so!
(sarcastic)
(Wikipedia is notorious for it's false info)


----------



## Leo Valiant (Apr 19, 2000)

jeffrypennock said:


> You mean he gets quiet beofre something big approaches or his postings ramp up as something big approaches?


He gets quiet because he's so busy getting things ready for the launch. Seems to happen when there's a new software release or important show coming up. Or maybe he's just on vacation.

It's been nearly 3 weeks since he's posted here.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> Wikipedia says that the s3 will be out very soon, possibly before the end of this month. But I see no indication that this is based on anything other than the "soon" letter FCC, which certainly doesn't indicate a timeline as specific before the end of August...however, since we know that everything in Wikipedia is true, it must be so!
> (sarcastic)
> (Wikipedia is notorious for it's false info)


Wikipedia thinks Jeff Colbert turned into an Elephant and it seems Wikipedia also thinks Elephants should not have user accounts


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Curtis said:


> Aren't you the guy that thought Aug 28th is the last Monday of the 3rd quarter?


Yeah  And I thought someone corrected me and said it was actually in September, but I just looked it up and it's actually in October, so I was wrong again. 

So if Q2 ended in July then why do they wait until late August to have the call? Does it take them a month to put everything together? If it really does happen on the 25th then my prediction of launch on the 28th might actually be true. 

Dan


----------



## cotton168 (Aug 8, 2006)

Hey Everyone!

Newbie here and thought I needed to share some interesting news about the S3 that is coming out. I was at Best Buy yesterday because of the new Toshiba HD DVD player and was talking to the guys about when TIVO was ever coming out with an HD box. Well, one of the guys said that a TIVO rep told them that the box is coming out in October. Yes, October. I asked about the price of the S3, but they said that the TIVO rep would not comment on that.

Hope it helps and I will be in line for one of those.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

cotton168 said:


> Hey Everyone!
> 
> Newbie here and thought I needed to share some interesting news about the S3 that is coming out. I was at Best Buy yesterday because of the new Toshiba HD DVD player and was talking to the guys about when TIVO was ever coming out with an HD box. Well, one of the guys said that a TIVO rep told them that the box is coming out in October. Yes, October. I asked about the price of the S3, but they said that the TIVO rep would not comment on that.
> 
> Hope it helps and I will be in line for one of those.


 I've confirmed several times personally (playing dumb on something I actually knew a lot about) that most of these Best Buy reps don't know what they're talking about so I wouldn't take this guy's word for it.


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## cotton168 (Aug 8, 2006)

Really?! Very saddened then, but still keeping up hopes that it will come out by that time. The August 28th date of course sounds fine and dandy to me.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I've been told by TivoOpsMgr that TiVo reps do not get any information about pre-release hardware, so if this BB guy did hear something it was probably just a rumor.

I think at the very least we'll hear something about the S3 during the next conference call. Whenever that might be. 

Dan


----------



## classicX (May 10, 2006)

moyekj said:


> I've confirmed several times personally (playing dumb on something I actually knew a lot about) that most of these Best Buy reps don't know what they're talking about so I wouldn't take this guy's word for it.


You too?!


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> I've been told by TivoOpsMgr that TiVo reps do not get any information about pre-release hardware, so if this BB guy did hear something it was probably just a rumor.
> 
> I think at the very least we'll hear something about the S3 during the next conference call. Whenever that might be.
> 
> Dan


so full circle back to my post  


ZeoTiVo said:


> I speculate we will hear more news when it is released or at the next earnings call, whichever comes first


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

OK....here's the deal.....I am now a TCF Coffee House celibate until the S3 comes out....I refuse to post anything until it has been released....












































....or not.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> ....or not.


All I can think of is the Seinfeld competition on who could hold out the longest. Kramer came back within the day claiming 'I'm out'.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Leo Valiant said:


> He gets quiet because he's so busy getting things ready for the launch. Seems to happen when there's a new software release or important show coming up. Or maybe he's just on vacation.
> 
> It's been nearly 3 weeks since he's posted here.


ding ding ding! We have a winner.

I was on a biz trip, and then on vacation.

Second half. 

Pony


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> Second half.
> 
> Pony


teaser....another 23 days, and you can say it'll be here in the third third.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

What he didn't say is the biz trip was to take a look at the S3 production line that's getting rolling and the vacation time was for beta testing the S3 at home.... one can always hope.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> I was on a biz trip, and then on vacation.


Aren't those practically the same thing for the fat cats at TiVo? Where'd you go? Monte Carlo? The Hotel de Paris? Take your meals at Louis XV? Nice choice.



> Second half.


Um, it _is_ the second half. Where's my Series 3?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Actually it's wishful thinking because the 28th is my birthday.
> 
> The only thing we really have to go on is the Idol Speculation contest rules, which promised the delivery of the grand prize (a S3) with in 4 months. The 4 month mark is actually sometime in mid September, and there was some wording that let them get out of that deadline if need be. So really it could be any time. I just thought it would be a good gift if they released them on my birthday.
> 
> Dan


I'll vote for a release on your birthday


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> . . . Then again we wont really know until the S3s are out there and we start getting reports as to how well they work.
> 
> Dan


Unless we can break a beta tester. Any S3 testers looking for a five spot under the table?


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## getgray (Mar 2, 2006)

Still no news??


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

getgray said:


> Still no news??


Nothing - except the other threads currently active with things like the beta leak, the pre-order gaff, etc.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

megazone said:


> Nothing - except the other threads currently active with things like the beta leak, the pre-order gaff, etc.


Don't forget the TiVo.com web page with mailing list registration and CableCARD FAQ.


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## getgray (Mar 2, 2006)

davezatz said:


> Don't forget the TiVo.com web page with mailing list registration and CableCARD FAQ.


Thanks. Saw that. Pretty worthless page. But alas, I poked in my address just in case. Thanks guys. l8r


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

megazone said:


> the pre-order gaff, etc.


What pre-order gaff??

Edit: Oh...


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