# Now Im PISSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!



## hoopsrgreat (Jan 2, 2005)

So I call to inquire about the RSN, specifically FSBA to see if I can get the Giants and A's games in HD. I live in the 95361 zipcode, about 90 miles from SF, but I am in the DMA for the A's and Giants. After getting off the phone with D* they inform me I am not able to receive the spot beam as I am not in the local DMA. How is this possible? Can someone explain this to me.

I get the SD feed from direct tv, but not the HD feed. 

I throw some zipcodes out at her and Livermore gets the games, but Tracy doesnt, and obviously further inland from Tracy would not as well.

I am pissed, as this was the one thing I was waiting for, ad after being originally told I could get these games, now I am told I can not.

I may call back and tell them thye can take the H20 and shove it. I dont need the damn thing if it doesnt give me more access to HD channels.   


Can someone point me in the right direction on D* website that shows what the "local DMA" is? I was told I could find the info on the website, but cant find it.


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## jbradway (Sep 30, 2001)

Your probably in the Sacramento-Stockton market like me. I think the home RSN is Comcast Sports Net West. Even so I haven't heard anyone say we can get that RSN. So we get nothing for now.


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## hoopsrgreat (Jan 2, 2005)

Do you get channel 654?? FSBA? I do, get all of the A's and Giants games in SD. What is the difference?

I actually care more about the Kings games in HD, so if you are saying we are in the Comcast Sports net WEst, We should get those.


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## jbradway (Sep 30, 2001)

Yes I get FSBA and Comcast West in SD. I hope we'll get the "game only" channel at some point. Other Comcast channels have come to agreement with D*. Perhaps they are waiting until the NBA season starts to offer the Kings games? I would hope we can get the A's, Giants and Kings. But only D* knows what they are going to give and when.
BTW, I refuse to change over to the H20 and HR20 (when it comes along) and stick with my HR10-250 until they do give me some RSN love.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

The RSN's in HD are included on the spotbeam with the locals for that market. So in San Fran it's included on the San Fran spotbeam which may not be big enough to reach out to where you are. In any case it's just like NESN in CT. NESN is on the Boston spot only, thus those in CT are not getting it (technicaly there they can because the spot is big enough but NESN would need to be included in the Hartford spotbeam for them to get it).

So FSBA would need to be put on the Sacramento spotbeam for you to get it.

Next year with the next two sats they should be able to put the RSN's on national CONUS beams which will make this issue go away. In the meantime they are providing the RSN's in HD where they can so some people get a bonus which we didn't expect was coming.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> The RSN's in HD are included on the spotbeam with the locals for that market. So in San Fran it's included on the San Fran spotbeam which may not be big enough to reach out to where you are.


Can they make the spot-beams that small? San Francisco and Sacramento are only about 75 miles or so apart as the crow flies. I know the SD locals from S.F. can be received in Sacramento -- the TV station I work for used to have a receiver than was authorized for the S.F. stations.

A few months ago, my brother, who lives in L.A., came to Sacramento visit and brought his D* receiver with him -- he wanted to see if the L.A. spotbeam reached this far. Indeed it does -- we connected his receiver to my dish, and easily picked up all the L.A. locals that are on a spot-beam (KTLA, KCAL, KCOP, etc.) though the signal level was down in the 40s.


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## Lije Baley (May 12, 2004)

I take my SD tivo in my trailer. The Sacramento DMA spot beam covers way north into Oregon, east across Nevada, and pretty far south in California. I've not gone to the limits of the beam, but there are maps of it out there.

The problem is that different transponders are active for Sacramento customers than are active for SF customers. An SF customer could bring his receiver to Sacramento/Tracy (as did videojanitor's brother) and receive his SF local stations. We can take our Sacramento receivers to the Bay Area and watch our locals. While the spot beams overlap, the local stations are on different transponders. Those transponders are active only for people in the proper DMA within the spot beam. If you scroll through your transponders you'll see several with no signal. If you were a resident of a neighboring DMA those transponders would be active, while the Sacramento transponders (4, 12, and 20 on 101) would seem to have no signal.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

Lije Baley said:


> If you scroll through your transponders you'll see several with no signal. If you were a resident of a neighboring DMA those transponders would be active, while the Sacramento transponders (4, 12, and 20 on 101) would seem to have no signal.


Ah, so you're saying the receiver would show no signal on those transponders, even though it is RECEIVING a signal, simply because it is not authorized to view them?


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## Lije Baley (May 12, 2004)

Yes.


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## rlj5242 (Dec 20, 2000)

videojanitor said:


> A few months ago, my brother, who lives in L.A., came to Sacramento visit and brought his D* receiver with him -- he wanted to see if the L.A. spotbeam reached this far. Indeed it does


 Because there is no L.A. spotbeam. The LA stations are broadcast on a CONUS beam.



Lije Baley said:


> If you scroll through your transponders you'll see several with no signal. If you were a resident of a neighboring DMA those transponders would be active, while the Sacramento transponders (4, 12, and 20 on 101) would seem to have no signal.


 That is not correct. The signal strength test doesn't care if you are authorized to receive a channel or not. It's just checking the signal. For example, the Memphis spot beam goes all the way to south Arkansas. My in-laws are not authorized for any Memphis stations but they get a great signal on TP 4. And it's not some other TP 4 spot beam either because Memphis locals come in great down there. I've tested them.

-Robert


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

What happened to the pat on the back?


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## hoopsrgreat (Jan 2, 2005)

The pat on the back is still there, Im more pissed at the lack of correct information. If this stuff goes out on another feed within the next 6 months, where I will be able to get the RSN in HD for next year, GREAT! I am pissed that when I originally called, I was told I would receive the signal. Then when I called last night, was told I wouldnt be able to get the signal.


I still dont understand what the "local DMA" is. I just assumed that If I received the FSBA in SD, that I was in the local DMA. Apparently not. I also have yet to see where I can find what the actual local DMA is. I know it goes out to at least Livermore. I know I am in the Giants and A's home market, so I guess that Iis where MY CONFUSION comes from.


D* just needs to do a better job of keeping the lunatics like us informed. Had I been aware of the situation as it stands in advance, I would have not gotten so upset. But when I got the new dish and H20 I was all excited at getting my A's games in all of my 61" HD glory. Now I get 61" SD, which is hardly glorious.


Kind of like expecting some awesome gift for your birthday, and getting some crappy sweater.


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## Lije Baley (May 12, 2004)

rlj5242 said:


> That is not correct. The signal strength test doesn't care if you are authorized to receive a channel or not.


Oh well, I thought I understood it.

Here's a chart of the transponder assignments for the SD locals: http://www.tivofan.com/directv/channels.html#900


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

hoopsrgreat said:


> After getting off the phone with D* they inform me I am not able to receive the spot beam as I am not in the local DMA. How is this possible?


How is it possible they informed you _after_ getting off the phone with D* ?

Did they immediately call you back ?


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## Lije Baley (May 12, 2004)

Stanley Rohner said:


> How is it possible they informed you _after_ getting off the phone with D* ??


By spot beam?


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

rlj5242 said:


> Because there is no L.A. spotbeam. The LA stations are broadcast on a CONUS beam.


Actually, only KCBS, KNBC, KABC, and KTTV are on the CONUS beam. All the others are on a spot beam, since they are not available as DNS stations, and it would be a waste to put them on CONUS.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

hoopsrgreat said:


> ...I still dont understand what the "local DMA" is. I just assumed that If I received the FSBA in SD, that I was in the local DMA. Apparently not. I also have yet to see where I can find what the actual local DMA is...


DMA is such a common term in broadcasting that I have actually forgotten what the letters stand for. Direct Market Area, I think. It is a way of drawing a line in the sand between adjacent coverage areas for the purposes of marketing, collecting ratings info, determining eligibility for sports and other programming, counting viewers, and setting ad rates.

The problem was that Grade B coverage is actually not well-defined, and overlaps in certain situations, which is a nightmare for pencil-pushers. It is difficult to do any of the above when nobody really knows where to draw the line, so they just drew arbitrary lines hoping to replicate Grade B. Sometimes it is accurate, sometimes it isn't. If a viewer lives on the boundary, he may get his primary DMA coverage reception, or the secondary coverage instead, or both, or neither. So there are instances of gross unfairness in folks being disenfranchised for DNS, sports blackouts, and the like.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

videojanitor said:


> Actually, only KCBS, KNBC, KABC, and KTTV are on the CONUS beam. All the others are on a spot beam, since they are not available as DNS stations, and it would be a waste to put them on CONUS.


there's other channels in HD in LA besides the big 4?

ALso I'm under the impression that in the NY DMA at least they have duplicates of the big 4 in MPEG4 HD on the KA NY spot. Considering they seem intent on killing off the LA big four first, I'd assume LA would be the same now?


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## mikeny (Dec 22, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> DMA is such a common term in broadcasting that I have actually forgotten what the letters stand for. Direct Market Area, I think.


Designated Market Area


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Which makes about as much practical sense as the "designated hitter".


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

hoopsrgreat said:


> I still dont understand what the "local DMA" is. I just assumed that If I received the FSBA in SD, that I was in the local DMA. Apparently not. I also have yet to see where I can find what the actual local DMA is. I know it goes out to at least Livermore. I know I am in the Giants and A's home market, so I guess that Iis where MY CONFUSION comes from.


http://www.truckads.com/licensed_affiliates1.asp#usamap

I'm sure the San Fran spot beam covers most if not all of Sacramento. The issue is that the RSN's are being packaged together for authorization with your HD locals. The authorization is by zip code. So it's obvious that FSBA in HD is not being sent on the Sacramento spot beam and thus not available with the HD locals for Sacramento.

I'll give an example of my own market. My market is Grand Rapids-Kalamazoo Michigan, #39. Our RSN is Fox Sport Detroit which is now in HD. I cannot get FSD in HD at the current time becuase it's only on the Detroit HD locals spotbeam. Once my HD locals go up this fall, they will have to include FSD on that spotbeam for me to get it. By then I hope they have this all straightened out and have the RSNs in HD on all the spots for markets that have HD locals and have that RSN as part of their package.

And for those looking at SD spots and stuff, it has nothing to do with these spots. These are on the new Spaceway sats which are all different then the ones at 101 and 119 that deliver SD locals.

And I'll just mention for those that miss this (and there have been a lot on various forums): You need the new AT9/5 LNB dish and an H20 to receive these RSNs in HD because they are MPEG4.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> http://www.truckads.com/licensed_affiliates1.asp#usamap
> 
> ... The issue is that the RSN's are being packaged together for authorization with your HD locals. ....


anyone quess why they are doing that?

Why not authorize them by the same as the SD RSN areas? Iis it that some of the HD LIL spots are not covering the whole RSN footprint so they might give people authorization who are outside the spot so they would constanltl get error messages implying they could get the channel when they physically counldn't? (EDIT: just reread your whole post- looks like that is the case)

WHy not just make a seperate 'tier' or whatever you call the go signal? Are they somehow limited in how many of those they can create? I'd think with LIL (SD or HD) plus everythign else there must be thousands of those already so what's another 20-50?


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> there's other channels in HD in LA besides the big 4?


Oh, oops, sorry for the confusion. My earlier posts were referring to the SD signals, not HD. I was using that as a reference, wondering exactly how small those beams can be, noting that the L.A. *SD* spotbeam reaches at least 400 miles north.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

videojanitor said:


> Oh, oops, sorry for the confusion. My earlier posts were referring to the SD signals, not HD. I was using that as a reference, wondering exactly how small those beams can be, noting that the L.A. *SD* spotbeam reaches at least 400 miles north.


I wonder if anyone is trying to make a map yet?

I am under the impression that with the phased arrays they can be pretty small and irregular shapped too so in theory they could make a beam that closely matches the DMA. But real world I've seen at least one post that someone well out of a DMA could get locals ffrom the "foreign" DMA.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> I wonder if anyone is trying to make a map yet?


This site has been around for some time:

http://www.scottandmichelle.net/scott/dtv.html

Not sure if anyone outside of D* can say if it's accurate, but it's about the only thing I've seen that attempted to map it.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

videojanitor said:


> This site has been around for some time:
> 
> http://www.scottandmichelle.net/scott/dtv.html
> 
> Not sure if anyone outside of D* can say if it's accurate, but it's about the only thing I've seen that attempted to map it.


That is quite old (as you stated) and is the SD spotbeams. I haven't seen anyone try to do the same for the HD spotbeams yet.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

and just to clarify the HD beams can be much much different than the SD beams. 

In fact the HD beams can be dynamic with the phased array whereas the SD beams were pretty much decided upon on the ground before they launched the bird. The non phased array antennas required that. Once it's built they cant change it. (some rumors that more recent SD spot beam sats might have had differnt antenna arrays so they could reset the spot beams to work at 101 or 110/119.


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