# Update given to me from Dave Shull, CEO of TiVo



## rjcrum (Jun 28, 2002)

Having been one of the people complaining about the vaporous RokuFireTV/Apple apps from TiVo, I decided to make a direct appeal to Dave Shull, the current CEO of TiVo. Surprisingly, I got a response back from him regarding several issues I raised. Those issues were basically related to pre-roll ads, TiVo+, the Roku/AppleTV/FireTV apps, viewing the installed base as a distraction, and the TiVO Stream 4K not being able to access our TiVo content.

I asked him permission to post his replies here, and in the TiVo.Innovate Facebook group. He agreed.
Here's what Dave wrote back to me:

Dear Mr. Crum -

First of all, thank you for reaching out to me directly. I appreciate your loyalty to TiVo. I respect your feedback. You will not like all of the answers below, but I do want to provide direct responses to a couple of your questions:

TiVo+ should continue to improve considerably. At CES we announced an expansion from 26 to 49 channels. We are in active discussions to continue to expand that base of channels.
TiVo Stream 4K is targeted to the cord cutters and those using streaming OTT services. I understand that that strategy may frustrate some of our existing customers who are using TiVo with either a cable card or over the air antenna.
I would like to see more integration between our existing TiVo platform and TiVo Stream 4k, but at least initially it will be separate. It's a separate code base built on top of Android TV since that is more consistent with the scaled down hardware platform (i.e., a dongle instead of a full set top box).
So, I cannot promise you any specific date when we will connect the product lines. (We will hit the April 2020 deployment date that we promised for TiVo Stream 4K.)


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Not surprising was silence on the topic of pre-roll ads, IMO the worst offense against the spirt of TiVo. What could he say that wouldn't sound absurd?


----------



## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

Also, nothing indicating they won’t be abandoning the DVR hardware.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

mntvjunkie said:


> Also, nothing indicating they won't be abandoning the DVR hardware.


Well, except for the fact that they just ported two major revenue sources (TiVo+ and pre-roll) into their family of DVRs and engineered a brand new model.


----------



## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

I get the arrow screen but no pressure roll commercial.


----------



## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

So, where is the reporter getting his information from in the article below?

Watch Out Roku, TiVo is Bringing Some Serious Competition

The reporter states in the article, "TiVo should be able to pivot its customers to the new device thanks to its better interface, live TV options and integrated DVR capabilities."

The reporters article makes sense for a chance for a successful business strategy if it is true, but Shull responds doesn't make sense and is full of holes that the article above has no problem filling in.


----------



## bbrown9 (Mar 12, 2011)

So no direct responses about the pre-roll ads, the Roku/AppleTV/FireTV apps, or viewing the installed base as a distraction.


----------



## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

I would have also asked about the next Roamio, Bolt, and Edge updates and when they're getting Disney+, Apple+, and live streaming apps, Hulu live, Youtube TV, etc.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Narkul said:


> I would have also asked about the next Roamio, Bolt, and Edge updates and when they're getting Disney+, Apple+, and live streaming apps, Hulu live, Youtube TV, etc.


None of those things are coming to existing hardware.

If that's what you want, buy something else.


----------



## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

cwoody222 said:


> None of those things are coming to existing hardware.
> 
> If that's what you want, buy something else.


Perhaps not, but I think everyone should keep pressing it and calling them out on it, even if it hurts them long term. The Edge is a brand new box and should have had this and more. I have zero plans to buy this streamer, and since my friends and family know I own TiVos, I will warn them away from this thing until I see better support for my multi-thousand dollar investment.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Narkul said:


> Perhaps not, but I think everyone should keep pressing it and calling them out on it, even if it hurts them long term. The Edge is a brand new box and should have had this and more. I have zero plans to buy this streamer, and since my friends and family know I own TiVos, I will warn them away from this thing until I see better support for my multi-thousand dollar investment.


Calling them out on what?

Not giving you what you want in the products they choose to sell?


----------



## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

I have had a TiVo for most of my adult life. I have done laptops, a few TiVo and 2 smart TVs. I do not own a streaming box. I am sure there a lot like myself as well as early adopters whose streamers are not 4k and are ready for new ones. I will buy a TiVo stream 4k. As will others. I probably would have gotten a Roku. Niwbi have another option.


----------



## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

cwoody222 said:


> Calling them out on what?
> 
> Not giving you what you want in the products they choose to sell?


"*Apps. Live TV. DVR. One seamless way to find, watch and enjoy it all." *

Unless it's Disney+, Apple+ or even the latest version of any current app.

*Recommendations that work. (No, this isn't the end times.)*

LOL.

*Take Outlander on the airplane. Watch The Good Place, anyplace. Your favorite shows, wherever you go.*

If you can get a TV and your Tivo in a suitcase maybe. At least none of that has ever worked reliably enough for me.

And then there are all the bug posts in the Edge forum alone, let alone the bugs that are still reported on the Roamio and Bolt. It's not about giving us what we want so much as what we were promised.


----------



## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

cwoody222 said:


> Well, except for the fact that they just ported two major revenue sources (TiVo+ and pre-roll) into their family of DVRs and engineered a brand new model.


A brand new model that they didn't really announce and didn't talk about at CES. And one that is, at best, a small update over the bolt.

But they launched a new product that doesn't work with their existing products. Let that sink in. And they abandoned a product they announced last year, while stating they wanted to abandon hardware.

What am I left to do but interpret that as "TiVo DVRs are now an afterthought?" I'm sure existing hardware will continue to work, but I feel like updates will be minimal, and the focus will be on the new stick.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Narkul said:


> "*Apps. Live TV. DVR. One seamless way to find, watch and enjoy it all." *
> 
> Unless it's Disney+, Apple+ or even the latest version of any current app.
> 
> ...


It is not up to TiVo to offer apps such as Disney+ or Apple+. It is up to the app manufacturers.

TiVo never promised every app. They provide the major apps that the vast majority of streaming users would ever need.

Not sure what your problems are with streaming but I download on my phone weekly and stream to my iPad all the time as well and never have a problem. I've taken my shows on a plane and vacation lots of times and it works exactly as advertised.

I still don't see anything that warrants constantly "calling them out" on stuff.

You want a few more apps and you have some bugs that other people don't seem to have. And they changed a feature (Recommendations).


----------



## dadrepus (Jan 4, 2012)

So, it seems they partnered with Sling for this new product then why not partner with Silicondust and give us the compact dvr we have all wanted. Put their own software in it and new case, bingo. Everything else is just software additions.


----------



## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

Tivo has all the apps that I need. The fact that I won't sign up for a service if there is not a Tivo app probably has something to do with it.


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

tl;dr. He confirmed all your worst fears.  That could be a form letter automatically sent to anyone who contacts him with such questions —— with some customization depending on what topics were involved.


----------



## Triride44 (Jan 11, 2020)

The Sling app is missing from my Romeo. Now that TiVo has partnered with Sling, maybe it will be aviable.


----------



## stuart628 (Jul 5, 2006)

Man I was pretty high on tivo and even semi excited for the product after ces..but reading this puts me into a negative feel on tivo again and makes me think if I should go ahead and jump ship now. What caught my eye in what he said is I want to connect the product lines, not we are going to...I...Also he didnt even say if they were working on it at all just that its all new code...I know it would be easy to connect them in the future as they already had a app written, but that is not promising at all, time to look at HD homerun or similiar.


----------



## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

cwoody222 said:


> It is not up to TiVo to offer apps such as Disney+ or Apple+. It is up to the app manufacturers.


It is Tivos responsibility to provide a platform that app manufacturers are interested in developing for. Using Samsung's dead HTML5 platform is not it and the apps written for it are likely to stop working soon. It might be a lot of work to switch over to Android, but they've already done it for their cable customers, but choose to leave us, who kept them in business all these years, hanging.



cwoody222 said:


> TiVo never promised every app.


That doesn't exactly fall in line with their tag line which says "watch and enjoy it all". I'm quite sure "all" would encompass Disney and Apple. A year and a half ago, I paid $600 for a state of the art "enjoy it all" box that I assumed would stay up to date and even ahead of the $30 streaming sticks.



cwoody222 said:


> Not sure what your problems are with streaming but I download on my phone weekly and stream to my iPad all the time as well and never have a problem. I've taken my shows on a plane and vacation lots of times and it works exactly as advertised.


Great that it works for you, I, like many others, find it unusable.



cwoody222 said:


> I still don't see anything that warrants constantly "calling them out" on stuff.
> You want a few more apps and you have some bugs that other people don't seem to have. And they changed a feature (Recommendations).


Lots of people here are experiencing bugs, pre-roll freezing, Tivo+ reboots, Moca failures, the list goes on and on.
Some will defend Tivo's actions till the servers shut down. Not me.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Shull said:


> TiVo Stream 4K is targeted to the cord cutters and those using streaming OTT services. I understand that that strategy may frustrate some of our existing customers who are using TiVo with either a cable card or over the air antenna.


And here's a fundamental fault with this: why does Shull seemingly insist that the OTA and cable worlds are diametrically opposed to the streaming world? Wasn't the answer more accurately proposed by TiVo earlier, before Mr. Shull ever appeared on the scene with his plan to dismantle TiVo, with the OnePass--have your OTA and cable selections merged with your streaming content? The TiVo "answer" now, as being advocated by Shull, simply seems to be to do what TiVo put in place years ago, but abandoning half of the answer (while stating, ~"we'll look at it later").


----------



## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

If I was an investor, I'd say Shull needs to go. Anything he says now I would take it as a grain of sand. Salt is much more valuable.


----------



## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

Mikeguy said:


> And here's a fundamental fault with this: why does Shull seemingly insist that the OTA and cable worlds are diametrically opposed to the streaming world? Wasn't the answer more accurately proposed by TiVo earlier, before Mr. Shull ever appeared on the scene with his plan to dismantle TiVo, with the OnePass--have your OTA and cable selections merged with your streaming content? The TiVo "answer" now, as being advocated by Shull, simply seems to be to do what TiVo put in place years ago, but abandoning half of the answer (while stating, ~"we'll look at it later").


Shull knows his customer base. TiVo sells more hardware to cable companies than OTA users, and access to streaming services, especially OTT services with Live Television, is not desired by those cable companies. TiVo has to walk a fine line in those relationships, thus the bifurcation in product services. IMHO that is why TiVo Edge, Bolt, etc users will never see OTT live streaming apps made available from TiVo (yes, app functionality and development rests with the App developer, but TiVo ultimately controls the distribution of those apps).


----------



## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

*TiVo 'Needs to Get Over' Its DVR Past and Focus on Streaming, CEO Says*

https://www.multichannel.com/news/ceo-shull-says-tivo-needs-to-get-over-the-dvr


----------



## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

tapokata said:


> Shull knows his customer base. TiVo sells more hardware to cable companies than OTA users, and access to streaming services, especially OTT services with Live Television, is not desired by those cable companies.


Well, Verizon just announced it is no longer bundling. Everything will be sold separate. Also, because of their success with offering Disney+ free to it's customers Verizon wants to do free OTT offers. So, no. OTT services with Live Television not being desired by cable companies can no longer be a generalization and a universal fact.


----------



## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

> Shull: "Because of *our history with guides, and search and recommendation*, we have the ability to put everything under one place."


Wow, 0 for 3.


----------



## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

*Companies That Offer TiVo*

Charter.
Comcast.
Comporium.
Grande Communications.
Northland Communications.
RCN.
Suddenlink.

From a Livewire.com post updated last month. These are the customers Tivo is serving. Verizon's actions are not representative of what is going on in the Cable industry- and with those customers in particular.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> And here's a fundamental fault with this: why does Shull seemingly insist that the OTA and cable worlds are diametrically opposed to the streaming world? Wasn't the answer more accurately proposed by TiVo earlier, before Mr. Shull ever appeared on the scene with his plan to dismantle TiVo, with the OnePass--have your OTA and cable selections merged with your streaming content? The TiVo "answer" now, as being advocated by Shull, simply seems to be to do what TiVo put in place years ago, but abandoning half of the answer (while stating, ~"we'll look at it later").


If they could snap their fingers and immediately make the new TiVo Stream 4K work as extenders (i.e. Minis) for existing TiVo DVRs, I think they would. It would obviously only help sales of the new product. But obviously, it would take time and resources to make the Stream 4K work that way and it's just not a priority for them. I think the CEO realizes that this is a product that they should have brought to market years ago. This is basically a fire drill for them now. If they can successfully launch the Stream 4K, then hopefully they'll expend the resources to make it work as a Mini replacement later this year. But I honestly don't think that adding that feature would make a big enough difference in the overall sales of the product. The Stream 4K will succeed or fail as a standalone streaming device. Period.

I get the anger that longtime TiVo users feel when they hear the CEO saying things like "get over" the DVR, and that they're all in on streaming now. But IMO, this is simply TiVo finally publicly coming to terms with where the market is going. Cable TV is in gradual decline but the bigger problem for TiVo is that it's all shifting to IPTV and/or OTT, transmission methods that are incompatible with CableCARD. If TiVo is going to continue on as a viable consumer brand, it has to be as a brand tied to streaming (and/or OTA DVRs, although that's a pretty niche product segment).


----------



## JLV03 (Feb 12, 2018)

tapokata said:


> *Companies That Offer TiVo*
> 
> Charter.
> Comcast.
> ...


Mediacom as well.

I have an eBox provided by them that has just the TiVo software - no recording. As I already have a house full of TiVos, I put it in my garage. With the exception of recording and seeing my retail TiVos, using the box is no different than running a regular TiVo Bolt.

Truth be told had Mediacom provided an eBox 5-6 years ago, I probably would have never purchased a single TiVo on my own. The cheap and terrible Motorola cable boxes pushed me first to Windows MCE and then to TiVo.

If the cable companies want to move to providing OTT services in place of linear cable, the TiVo experience on cable company supplied equipment is a good way to still provide support without driving customers to source their own equipment.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Triride44 said:


> The Sling app is missing from my Romeo. Now that TiVo has partnered with Sling, maybe it will be aviable.


No it won't.

it doesn't run on their architecture.

Also, doesn't make sense to put a live streamer on a DVR.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HEre's the rest of that article (interview with Tivo CEO) above that continued on a sister site:

_"
On the Xperi merger

TiVo surprised the investor community late last year, when it pivoted on plans to split its products and IP business units and instead entered into a merger with another technology company, Xperi.
_
*The merger makes sense on a product level, Shull said, with Xperi being "very good at making the embedded technology found inside TVs." This will come in handy as TiVo looks to embed its streaming ecosystem inside smart TVs the way Roku and Amazon do. *
_
In terms of the IP side of the business, he described patent litigation as a "shared know-how," noting that the combining the two strong patent portfolios strengthens both operations.

T*hird, Shull said Xperi gets TiVo further into new businesses like automotive. TiVo, which supplies music metadata to Pandora and Spotify, among other online music supplies, has already entered into a deal to supply a UI into the interface of an unnamed electronic auto manufacturer's in-vehicle entertainment system. *

TiVo, Shull said, sold its business to Xperi at a 21% premium. "_

*****
The 2 (bolded) parts stand out for me. I didn't think Tivo's product business fit in with Xperia, but as embedded tech in tvs it does.

And Tivo leveraging this into a new business like automotive makes sense too.

Even though, in both cases, they are late to the game.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> If they could snap their fingers and immediately make the new TiVo Stream 4K work as extenders (i.e. Minis) for existing TiVo DVRs, I think they would


They already have mobile apps that act as extenders and they had a beta app on the Fire TV that they removed. Seems like they aren't starting from ground zero for this effort.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

tapokata said:


> *Companies That Offer TiVo*
> 
> Charter.
> Comcast.
> ...


You can add Service Electric Cablevision. www.secv.com/tivo


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> You can add Service Electric Cablevision. www.secv.com/tivo


Midco offers Tivo too.


----------



## JSearfoss (Nov 17, 2008)

trip1eX said:


> Midco offers Tivo too.


So does Blue Ridge Communications.


----------



## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

Vyve Broadband also use Tivo for their XStream tv services too.

All-Digital HD TV | Vyve TV Services

https://www.vyvebroadband.com/downloads/TiVo-Vyve-HD-Experience-Guide.pdf

I came close to trying it out last week, when Vyve installed cable internet at my lake cabin and I was finally able to get rid of the flaky DSL.


----------



## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Joe3 said:


> So, where is the reporter getting his information from in the article below?
> 
> Watch Out Roku, TiVo is Bringing Some Serious Competition
> 
> ...


That's an extremely rosy report that makes a lot of unfounded and misleading statements. Also the reporter is very biased, hoping that his glowing report will affect Tivo's stock price and his pocketbook. Nobody else in the press has painted anywhere near as rosy a picture.

I'm sure the "integrated DVR" means Sling TV's cloud DVR, nothing more. I've already got that on all my other streaming devices since they can all run Sling TV as well as the far superior Youtube TV.

I'll remain skeptical until I see the actual features for myself. Tivo doesn't have a great track record of delivering on promises.


----------



## Doubledown00 (Jan 16, 2020)

AT&T lost more than 1.3 million TV customers in Q3 2019 alone. Other cable companies are reporting losses as well. I have cable and I like my Tivo Bolt. But folks, read the writing on the wall and understand what Shull and Tivo are trying to tell you: The Tivo DVR hardware is dead because the long term future is streaming services, not hardware and not cable.

The hardware DVR business is a dead end. It is an increasing share of a decreasing market. It is a digital buggywhip. And Tivo is not going to put R&D into developing and updating a dying platform. Which sucks because the Tivo hardware, at least for me, runs relatively well. 

With no Disney+ or Apple TV apps on the horizon I have been testing alternatives. 
Amazon Fire TV with a dedicated Plex server for live TV isn't bad. The UI is not refined like Tivo though and there are issues that folks have been complaining about for years and have never been fixed. 
Android TV, like all Google products these days it seems, is a buggy product.
The virtual DVR services (Direct TV now, Hulu TV, and Youtube) aren't ready for prime time and the content packages are a patchwork of tiers and outright missing channels.

Start planning your exit strategy now, folks. Either accept that eventually you will be a subscriber to the Tivo streaming service or start looking for a hardware DVR with your "must have" features and flaws that you can live with.


----------



## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

Doubledown00 said:


> ..........With no Disney+ or Apple TV apps on the horizon I have been testing alternatives.
> 
> Amazon Fire TV with a dedicated Plex server for live TV isn't bad. The UI is not refined like Tivo though and there are issues that folks have been complaining about for years and have never been fixed.
> .............


I highly recommend you check out Channels DVR. It works on your FireTV and many others like AppleTV and Shield. It is much more refined and closer to TiVo than what I've seen and heard from Plex's live TV/DVR, plus the Channels DVR Developers are super actively involved and literally answer your questions on their support forum within hours, not weeks!


----------



## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

cwoody222 said:


> It is not up to TiVo to offer apps such as Disney+ or Apple+. It is up to the app manufacturers...I still don't see anything that warrants constantly "calling them out" on stuff.


I agree. If TiVo doesn't provide the service one is seeking, there are plenty of alternatives. It's not up to TiVo to get apps on their platform, but, if TiVo wants to *sell* that platform, it behooves them to get as many popular apps on that platform as possible.


----------



## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

wizwor said:


> I agree. If TiVo doesn't provide the service one is seeking, there are plenty of alternatives. It's not up to TiVo to get apps on their platform, but, if TiVo wants to *sell* that platform, it behooves them to get as many popular apps on that platform as possible.


That's great if you only wanted or expected a dvr, but not so much if you bought because of Tivo's advertised claim that it was "all in one" and the best media solution. Not only will there not be new apps, but the current apps can no longer be updated. The Hulu app already looks weird with big empty spaces between the rows of shows.

It was never a question about Tivo's ability to offer these apps, but for them to provide meaningful updates to their platform. They've failed to deliver for several years now.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

dishrich said:


> *TiVo 'Needs to Get Over' Its DVR Past and Focus on Streaming, CEO Says*
> 
> https://www.multichannel.com/news/ceo-shull-says-tivo-needs-to-get-over-the-dvr


Well for me a Tivo is a DVR. To survive they may need to focus on streaming but if I lose DVR functionality they will become near worthless, to me. Hopefully they can get to the point where they make enough money off streaming to stay in business. And by staying in business they will continue to support the DVR function of existing models. However that is probably not all in their hands, the phasing out of cable cards for one, ATSC 3 another. We shall see, if the future is all streaming and "cloud" type DVRs where you can save a few shows and have to pay extra to save more, well sad for me........................


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

A couple of hard truths that have been said in bits and pieces up thread, but which I think need to be stated together...

1) "Cable TV" providers no longer exist. They have become broadband providers that also offer some linear programming for legacy customers. The money is in internet, not TV.
2) It is not just cable TV that is in decline, the whole concept of linear broadcasting is declining. We are moving towards a world where EVERYTHING is on demand. The only "live TV" will be sports, and news in a limited fashion.
3) When content is no longer broadcast in a specific time slot, and can be retrieved anytime and anywhere desired, what is the point of a DVR? More to the point, how much VALUE can it bring, and can it be economically built?
4) While those of us that use and love TiVO DVRs may be upset, if TiVo has ANY retail future the Stream 4K is it, not DVRs.

The world is moving beyond broadcasting and DVRs, and is moving to on-demand and streaming. I have a 24TB Plex server full of movies and TV shows...many (most?) of which can be streamed. I care enough about audio and video quality to do BluRay rips and set up a dedicated Plex server. Most people don't care that streamed 4K only resembles good quality 1080p (until you see a 4K HDR BluRay you have no idea what 4K can look like). IMHO, Schull is just recognizing the world TiVo is in today, instead of trying to continue beating the dead horse of DVRs.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Narkul said:


> It is Tivos responsibility to provide a platform that app manufacturers are interested in developing for. Using Samsung's dead HTML5 platform is not it and the apps written for it are likely to stop working soon. It might be a lot of work to switch over to Android, but they've already done it for their cable customers, but choose to leave us, who kept them in business all these years, hanging.


To be clear, their cable Android solution is only for IPTV, not for CableCard solutions. which is what is sold to consumers.

There are questions whether it's even possible to include CC support in an AndroidTV box.

I want to believe it they could have done it, they would have by now.


----------



## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> A couple of hard truths that have been said in bits and pieces up thread, but which I think need to be stated together...
> 
> 1) "Cable TV" providers no longer exist. They have become broadband providers that also offer some linear programming for legacy customers. The money is in internet, not TV.
> 2) It is not just cable TV that is in decline, the whole concept of linear broadcasting is declining. We are moving towards a world where EVERYTHING is on demand. The only "live TV" will be sports, and news in a limited fashion.
> ...


I agree with everything you've said. Setting aside having to deal with things like forced commercials, etc., for our particular situation, the main issue with streaming everything is broadband data caps. Especially with 4k content becoming increasing available. Comcast is our only viable broadband provider, and has a 1TB/mo data cap. Without getting into the details of our data usage, being able to record cable/OTA to a DVR saves us from going over our data cap (most of the time). Yes, we could pay the extra $50/mo for unlimited data and not have to worry about it. But, the amount we would be over our data cap would vary enough that it doesn't justify the extra cost.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Diana Collins said:


> A couple of hard truths that have been said in bits and pieces up thread, but which I think need to be stated together...
> 
> 1) "Cable TV" providers no longer exist. They have become broadband providers that also offer some linear programming for legacy customers. The money is in internet, not TV.
> 2) It is not just cable TV that is in decline, the whole concept of linear broadcasting is declining. We are moving towards a world where EVERYTHING is on demand. The only "live TV" will be sports, and news in a limited fashion.
> ...


The point of a DVR is that most Streaming services force the user to watch commercials and have degraded trick play ability. The ability to time shift the programming was already part of the DVR functionality. I'm not willing to give up commercial skipping and trick play.


----------



## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Diana Collins said:


> 1) "Cable TV" providers no longer exist. They have become broadband providers that also offer some linear programming for legacy customers. The money is in internet, not TV.


This is not true. About 80% still rely on cable for television. Cable has been adding 'value' to their products for decades. High Speed Internet and VOIP have been around forever. Security systems smart home are recent adds.


Diana Collins said:


> 2) It is not just cable TV that is in decline, the whole concept of linear broadcasting is declining. We are moving towards a world where EVERYTHING is on demand. The only "live TV" will be sports, and news in a limited fashion.


Again, not true. The State of Traditional TV: Updated With Q3 2018 Data - Marketing Charts


Diana Collins said:


> 3) When content is no longer broadcast in a specific time slot, and can be retrieved anytime and anywhere desired, what is the point of a DVR? More to the point, how much VALUE can it bring, and can it be economically built?


Oh, I don't know. When the internet is slow. When there is no internet. When you do not have internet. Cord cutting has grown by 50 percent in the last eight years


Diana Collins said:


> The world is moving beyond broadcasting and DVRs, and is moving to on-demand and streaming. I have a 24TB Plex server full of movies and TV shows...many (most?) of which can be streamed. I care enough about audio and video quality to do BluRay rips and set up a dedicated Plex server. Most people don't care that streamed 4K only resembles good quality 1080p (until you see a 4K HDR BluRay you have no idea what 4K can look like). IMHO, Schull is just recognizing the world TiVo is in today, instead of trying to continue beating the dead horse of DVRs.


I spend a lot of time recommending antennas. Most of the people asking about antennas are not even interested in having a DVR. Those people are watching linear (TV by appointment). I own more DVRs than anyone I know and when I turn on the television, I surf for something interesting, check my DVR, then, as a last resort, search on demand sources.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

wizwor said:


> Security systems smart home are recent adds.


Also recent subtractions; Charter is abandoning TWC's home security systems, leaving customers with unusable hardware the have purchased.



wizwor said:


> Oh, I don't know. When the internet is slow. When there is no internet. When you do not have internet.


Most of the major streaming services now allow downloading for times of Internet drought, if you care to plan ahead.


----------



## Doubledown00 (Jan 16, 2020)

wizwor said:


> 2) It is not just cable TV that is in decline, the whole concept of linear broadcasting is declining. We are moving towards a world where EVERYTHING is on demand. The only "live TV" will be sports, and news in a limited fashion.
> 
> Again, not true. The State of Traditional TV: Updated With Q3 2018 Data - Marketing Charts


I don't know why you said that is not true. The graphs contained within your very link affirm it. Looking at the demographic trends, it is hugely clear that younger populations are not watching cable or linear tv at all. Yet they are still spending a lot of time watching videos (much like every other demographic). The report doesn't go into what exactly they are spending their time watching, but after spending time with that age demographic I'd wager a princely sum it's things like Youtube and Netflix.

And when these younger folks start getting their own places to live, the chances are good they won't be calling a pay tv provider for service. That is, in a nutshell, a "decline". And if I were a pay tv executive that would be keeping me up at night.


----------



## Doubledown00 (Jan 16, 2020)

BillyClyde said:


> I highly recommend you check out Channels DVR. It works on your FireTV and many others like AppleTV and Shield. It is much more refined and closer to TiVo than what I've seen and heard from Plex's live TV/DVR, plus the Channels DVR Developers are super actively involved and literally answer your questions on their support forum within hours, not weeks!


I will check that out. Thanks!


----------



## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Turns out seniors have always watched more television than college kids and newlyweds. It's that whole not having school or a job or sex to distract you from TV. Two hours a day for college kids is a LOT of traditional TV.


Doubledown00 said:


> I don't know why you said that is not true. The graphs contained within your very link affirm it. Looking at the demographic trends, it is hugely clear that younger populations are not watching cable or linear tv at all. Yet they are still spending a lot of time watching videos (much like every other demographic). The report doesn't go into what exactly they are spending their time watching, but after spending time with that age demographic I'd wager a princely sum it's things like Youtube and Netflix.
> 
> And when these younger folks start getting their own places to live, the chances are good they won't be calling a pay tv provider for service. That is, in a nutshell, a "decline". And if I were a pay tv executive that would be keeping me up at night.


----------



## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

wizwor said:


> Turns out seniors have always watched more television than college kids and newlyweds. *It's that whole not having school or a job or sex to distract you from TV.* Two hours a day for college kids is a LOT of traditional TV.


I'm pretty much a senior and I certainly make sure that the latter reason distracts me from TV......a LOT!!!


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Doubledown00 said:


> I don't know why you said that is not true. The graphs contained within your very link affirm it. Looking at the demographic trends, it is hugely clear that younger populations are not watching cable or linear tv at all. Yet they are still spending a lot of time watching videos (much like every other demographic). The report doesn't go into what exactly they are spending their time watching, but after spending time with that age demographic I'd wager a princely sum it's things like Youtube and Netflix.
> 
> And when these younger folks start getting their own places to live, the chances are good they won't be calling a pay tv provider for service. That is, in a nutshell, a "decline". And if I were a pay tv executive that would be keeping me up at night.


Not really, the same companies that own networks, own studios, own streaming services and sometimes cable companies and internet providers. Pay TV is evolving, PAYING FOR TV IS NOT. The man has many hands.. The future will be expensive and the happy train has left the station and is never coming back.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Diana Collins said:


> The world is moving beyond broadcasting and DVRs


I'm not sure I would agree with the "beyond" part of your statement. To me that implies it is better. As long as shows are being broadcast I will be using hard drive type DVRs for the majority of my viewing. Cable/cable cards will probably "go" first but OTA should be around for at least another 5 years or more even if it does eventually go to ATSC 3.


----------



## jaselzer (Sep 10, 2018)

wizwor said:


> Turns out seniors have always watched more television than college kids and newlyweds. It's that whole not having school or a job or sex to distract you from TV. Two hours a day for college kids is a LOT of traditional TV.


Wtf....I am definitely a senior and I can assure you that watching TV does NOT take precedence over other "social" activities. And btw, my wife and I barely ever watch linear tv.

But onto a real point: one of the benefits of the TiVo 4K streaming stick will be, hopefully, the easy ability to find the streaming shows that you like to watch rather than having to record them onto a DVR.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

jaselzer said:


> having to record them onto a DVR.


Well personally setting up season passes and wishlists is about as easy as it gets, for me. Then I just go watch what has recorded, don't have to search for anything.


----------



## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

wizwor said:


> Turns out seniors have always watched more television than college kids and newlyweds. It's that whole not having school or a job or sex to distract you from TV. Two hours a day for college kids is a LOT of traditional TV.


But your missing half of the very article that you posted. While what you say is ABSOLUTELY true, even within the age groups viewing is DOWN for traditional TV. In older groups, it is down less (likely because streaming confuses them) but the younger you go, it is down more, year over year. And all of these numbers were in 2018, before Disney+ launched, before HBO Max Launches, and before Peacock launches. Furthermore, this is a trend that TV has noticed for YEARS now, with the top rated shows now pulling in what the lowest rated shows pulled in 20 years ago. And it is further being noticed by the executives who are replacing more and more scripted programming and syndicated reruns with News, sports, and other programming that lends itself to live viewing (at least on the broadcast side).

I didn't want to admit it at first, but this is the only play Tivo has left. Between cordcutting growing every year (due to streaming services having more content for less money and the rise of traditional cable TV prices and fees), and the decline of CableCard support on the horizon (because in order for Cable to keep up, they HAVE to move to an IPTV model to be able to not only offer more programming on demand, but to provide more internet speed over the same wires as used to occupy linear TV) Tivo's cable TV days are numbered. Comcast hasn't launched a non-IPTV channel in over 2 years in my market, and they are phasing out non-IPTV on-demand service. They are even starting to phase out "Hard Drive" DVR's for cloud DVR's on their managed network, and from what I have seen, it makes no difference whether the content is local or cloud. They can continue to provide OTA DVR's, but face downward pressure on pricing there due to Amazon and others entering the race.

Streaming is here, and the large content providers have so much faith in the future being a streaming/on-demand future that they are starting to pull their content from other channels to go exclusive to streaming (CBS started it with Star Trek, HBO Max has pulled Sesame Street from HBO, FX has shows launching exclusively on Hulu, etc).


----------



## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

mntvjunkie said:


> But your missing half of the very article that you posted. While what you say is ABSOLUTELY true, even within the age groups viewing is DOWN for traditional TV. In older groups, it is down less (likely because streaming confuses them) but the younger you go, it is down more, year over year. And all of these numbers were in 2018, before Disney+ launched, before HBO Max Launches, and before Peacock launches. Furthermore, this is a trend that TV has noticed for YEARS now, with the top rated shows now pulling in what the lowest rated shows pulled in 20 years ago. And it is further being noticed by the executives who are replacing more and more scripted programming and syndicated reruns with News, sports, and other programming that lends itself to live viewing (at least on the broadcast side).
> 
> I didn't want to admit it at first, but this is the only play Tivo has left. Between cordcutting growing every year (due to streaming services having more content for less money and the rise of traditional cable TV prices and fees), and the decline of CableCard support on the horizon (because in order for Cable to keep up, they HAVE to move to an IPTV model to be able to not only offer more programming on demand, but to provide more internet speed over the same wires as used to occupy linear TV) Tivo's cable TV days are numbered. Comcast hasn't launched a non-IPTV channel in over 2 years in my market, and they are phasing out non-IPTV on-demand service. They are even starting to phase out "Hard Drive" DVR's for cloud DVR's on their managed network, and from what I have seen, it makes no difference whether the content is local or cloud. They can continue to provide OTA DVR's, but face downward pressure on pricing there due to Amazon and others entering the race.
> 
> Streaming is here, and the large content providers have so much faith in the future being a streaming/on-demand future that they are starting to pull their content from other channels to go exclusive to streaming (CBS started it with Star Trek, HBO Max has pulled Sesame Street from HBO, FX has shows launching exclusively on Hulu, etc).


I was looking at Disney+ too and it's amazing how much stuff they have on there. Something for everyone really. Pixar, Marvel, Star Wars, Nat Geo and so many of their oldest animation. I was surprised. If HBO Max puts up all their old stuff from over the years it will be pretty big too.


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

wizwor said:


> This is not true. About 80% still rely on cable for television. Cable has been adding 'value' to their products for decades. High Speed Internet and VOIP have been around forever. Security systems smart home are recent adds.
> 
> Again, not true. The State of Traditional TV: Updated With Q3 2018 Data - Marketing Charts
> 
> ...


IMHO, this is whistling past the graveyard. Comcast, Verizon, and any other "cable provider" you can name is making WAY more money per subscriber on broadband service than cable TV. The margins on broadcast/linear cable channels are pitiful. With 5G being deployed there will be high speed internet access available literally everywhere within 10 years. While 80% of households may still have some form of cable, how much of their viewing is of linear channels versus on-demand? The article you linked to actually supports my argument - the younger the viewer the less linear content and the more on-demand content they consume. That is a trend that spells doom for networks as we know them. My children are 29 and 34 and neither of them have cable TV subscriptions. They are both customers of the "cable company" but for broadband, not TV. They watch Netflix, Amazon Prime and Hulu (and my Plex server). This is the future. With a viewing device (phone, tablet, smart TV, TV with streaming device, etc.) and an internet connection you'll have access to anything you could want - at a price.

And let's put to rest this "When the internet is slow/there is no internet" argument. If you don't have internet you probably don't have cable TV either, so unless you planned ahead and recorded something, your DVR isn't going to help you. So downloading a few shows in advance is really no different than scheduling them to record from a linear broadcast.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Two points. First, I don't have on demand. So if I want to watch something I need to search for it and 90% of the time I fail. Second, I record late night and watch it the next day, starting about 9am. Until streaming gets me that functionality I will be stuck with cable. I also can't use TVE on all programs. I'm sure my current situation will not last forever, but neither will I. I've been watching CNBC/MSNBC all morning and the main topic: Peacock. It's the wild west out there when it comes to streaming. But the west was settled.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> Two points. First, I don't have on demand. So if I want to watch something I need to search for it and 90% of the time I fail. Second, I record late night and watch it the next day, starting about 9am. Until streaming gets me that functionality I will be stuck with cable. I also can't use TVE on all programs. I'm sure my current situation will not last forever, but neither will I. I've been watching CNBC/MSNBC all morning and the main topic: Peacock. It's the wild west out there when it comes to streaming. But the west was settled.


I don't follow. Streaming lets you watch what you want when you want without having to record it even.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

trip1eX said:


> I don't follow. Streaming lets you watch what you want when you want without having to record it even.


I have a Roku Ultra. Say I want to watch Tuesday's NCIS (it was new). What would that require?


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> I have a Roku Ultra. Say I want to watch Tuesday's NCIS (it was new). What would that require?


a service that carries that show.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

trip1eX said:


> a service that carries that show.


Thanks. I'm starting to understand. Watching CNBC, it seems that half the discussions are on streaming. One conclusion from most: too many services with too few viewers at a price that some feel is too high. Result will be fewer services with more content. Expect merger mania later this year.


----------



## Fugacity (Oct 1, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> a service that carries that show.


Also much better guide data since CBS All Access has Tuesday's show as S17 E12 (With of course the episode description) Whereas Tivo thinks episode 11 never existed and has Flight Plan as episode 13.

But yes in Tivo's mind it basically has better metadata then justwatch.com (Which doesn't have episdoe 12's info at at all) and then you would click on NCIS and it would open CBS all access and you would watch the show. This assumes the CBS all access app has an API that allows this.


----------



## Fugacity (Oct 1, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> First, I don't have on demand. So if I want to watch something I need to search for it and 90% of the time I fail.


I don't know of other providers but anyone with Spectrum that has a roku(might need to be a certain version) or an apple tv can install the Spectrum app and get On Demand through spectrum. Also many cable networks have their own app regardless, which if Tivo would want to succeed with this concept would have to know what was offered where. The other caveat for the spectrum app itself would probably be Spectrum Internet because it uses the cable modem to authenticate.

I imagine Tivo wants to get in on the Spectrum Roku, AppleTV bandwagon with Spectrum and other providers.


----------



## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> Thanks. I'm starting to understand. Watching CNBC, it seems that half the discussions are on streaming. One conclusion from most: too many services with too few viewers at a price that some feel is too high. Result will be fewer services with more content. Expect merger mania later this year.


I could see shuttering of services, but mergers seem unlikely as most of the streaming services are part of much bigger companies. Google, Comcast, Disney, Apple, AT&T, etc.

I would guess Quibi and Netflix could be bought up.


----------



## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

wizwor said:


> This is not true. About 80% still rely on cable for television. Cable has been adding 'value' to their products for decades. High Speed Internet and VOIP have been around forever. Security systems smart home are recent adds.


This is also wrong. The last time over 80% relied on pay-tv services (traditional, not streaming) was 2017. That number has since dropped to just over 70%, an almost 5% decline from just 2018, and around an 18% decline since 2013.

Breaking it down further, around 51% of those who pay for TV do so through Cable TV. That's significantly lower than 80%, rather it's closer to 35%, and dropping. And the last quarter I could find numbers for (Q2 of last year) states that 1.2 million people "cut the cord" in that 3 month period alone. They cite streaming as the major reason for the cordcutting (as most research does).

Sources:

U.S. Pay-TV Subscriber Losses More Than Triple To 1.5M In Q2 - Report - Deadline

US Pay TV - nScreenMedia


----------



## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

mntvjunkie said:


> This is also wrong. The last time over 80% relied on pay-tv services (traditional, not streaming) was 2017. That number has since dropped to just over 70%, an almost 5% decline from just 2018, and around an 18% decline since 2013.
> 
> Breaking it down further, around 51% of those who pay for TV do so through Cable TV. That's significantly lower than 80%, rather it's closer to 35%, and dropping. And the last quarter I could find numbers for (Q2 of last year) states that 1.2 million people "cut the cord" in that 3 month period alone. They cite streaming as the major reason for the cordcutting (as most research does).


What the stats won't tell you is that people are running away from traditional services because they want choice, quality, control at reasonable price without unreasonable State taxes and hidden fees. Without being robbed by content owners.

The jury is still out on whether or not they are running from or running to eventually the same. Long before the last shovel is thrown on the grave of traditional entertainment delivery services the public will know. If they are in the same situation they were with traditional entertainment delivery services with streaming they may look back at cable to see if anything has changed and see if they have adapted instead of dying

Hey, just a thought...


----------



## mde8965 (Dec 8, 2019)

I am in the “long live cable TV” and the “Long live TiVo cable DVR” camps.

Perhaps I am just having trouble wrapping my head around how streaming and cord cutting saves me money and doesn’t add complexity to my video entertainment consumption habits.

For example. I have triple play with Spectrum. I have select +tier 1 tv. So my monthly bill is about $190/month.
This does not include HBO or other premier channels.

I watch or OnePass several current network prime time shows. I OnePass General Hospital. I live view college football games (networks as well as SEC and ACC channels), NFL games (networks), and MLB games (Florida Sports network 1 and 2 carry all of my Tampa Bay Rays games). When flipping through for other live TV I often end up on Discovery Life, Animal Planet, HGTV, A&E, food channel etc.

Now if I were to cut the cord, I would need all my locals, ESPN and other sports networks, Discovery Life, A&E, HGTV , etc and a way to DVR OR On Demand view all of the above to avoid commercials.

So I would either need SlingTV, YTTV, or similar and an HD antenna, I would need Hulu (with ad skip), Netflix, some sort of sports streaming package, etc.

At last check just for the YTTV, Hulu Netflix that would cost about $80/month. My spectrum bill, because of the bundle discounts would drop to about $95/month without TV.

So I’m at $175/month plus cost of antenna and Streaming devices. And now my “what do I want to watch” routine involves likely more than one device and several streaming apps and OTA.

All this because I don’t like the cable company fees, oh and because I save $5 /month ignoring device costs? 

Give me my cable, my TiVo DVR setup, and my one box pretty much does all. 
I know, I can’t really stream well using TiVo DVR, but that’s the point...why do I want to stream?

The above is sort of my argument, but embellished (including the misconceptions) to show what some of those “just over 70% of households” still think and maybe why they are not yet cord cutters.


----------



## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

I like TIVO it make watching TV easy. I set season passes and when I want to watch TV I see what is on. If there is nothing I check Netflix and Amazon. Cutting the cord and going with streaming services and OTA is making it work to watch TV. And the best part is everyone is finding out you will pay separately for what used to be bundled with your cable bill and this is going to end up costing you more.
And for those who complain they have to pay for channels they don't watch remember the people watching those channels are paying for channels you watch that they don't.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mde8965 said:


> I am in the "long live cable TV" and the "Long live TiVo cable DVR" camps.
> 
> Perhaps I am just having trouble wrapping my head around how streaming and cord cutting saves me money and doesn't add complexity to my video entertainment consumption habits.
> 
> ...


2 points

1) YTTV completely replaces cable and Tivo for $50/mo. So you would only need YTTV and not Hulu nor Netflix nor an HD antenna nor a Sports streaming service. YTTV is essentially no different than switching cable companies in that regard. You would have to check the channel lineup etc to see if you could make the switch. YTTV is considered an OTT (over the top) cable service.

2) the notion that one needs everything you have now in order to switch to something else is something one has to often get over in order to move completely to something else even if that something else is ultimately better overall. In YTTV's case, it's not much of a stretch because it's basically cabletv as you always knew it. But there's still some of that.

And with on-demand streaming services like NEtflix or Amazon etc you're basically looking at choosing an alternative world of programming if you wanted to completely switch over from cabletv. It's not sub-standard programming though. If anything it might be the place today to find the higher quality programming. But you wouldn't switch from cable to streaming services like Netflix to more conveniently watch the shows cabletv airs. You would switch because it has great content you can't find elsewhere that also happens to be more convenient way to watch tv.

Addtional commentary all in all, we're in a transition period. A lot of great content is now only on streaming, but a lot of good content remains on cable still. Sports rights are tied up in cable contracts for another 3-4 years in many cases particularly the rights to watch your local team or watch the playoffs so it is difficult to watch that stuff without cable. CNBC, for example, isn't on on-demand streaming either afaik. Maybe with Peacock that would change. Although you can watch a lot of CNBC segments on Youtube. I mean there are about 30 video segments CNBC put out on Youtube in the past ~8 hrs alone ranging from a handful of 30-45 minute segments to otherwise mostly ~5-7 minute segments. But it feels it feels like content is slowly moving to streaming.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> Thanks. I'm starting to understand. Watching CNBC, it seems that half the discussions are on streaming. One conclusion from most: too many services with too few viewers at a price that some feel is too high. Result will be fewer services with more content. Expect merger mania later this year.


 I don't think any of the major streaming services will be merging anytime soon. Someone already pointed out that big companies are behind many of them. Amazon, Netflix, Apple, Disney, ...and for some of these guys, they are just getting started.

The real battle now is some content is only on cable and some only on streaming. And I don't think that is something that can continue long term. And I would think the cable side will fall before the streaming side. I think the streaming side is what wins out because of convenience and low cost of equipment.

It will be interesting though because the content on each isn't a perfect substitute for the other. Comcast with Peacock and the way it is devised, still seems aimed to be an add-on to cable tv. cable customers get it for free at least the ad version. There's also a limited free version for all I think. And then a paid no commercial version. But they are still trying to position cable as the "premium" choice by only offering day after access to cable tv shows on Peacock along with only showing the Premiere League games, for example, that don't air on cable. And yet they confuse it all by also putting unique shows only on Peacock.

I just see the artificial barriers falling there where eventually they just put the stuff on cable on their service same day.


----------



## dougtv (May 20, 2015)

Are pre rolled ads an issue for everyone? Ever since I upgraded to Hydra, other than a little bit of a laggy peformance on my Roamio Pro, I haven’t noticed any terrible issues. 

I was wondering if these new prerolled ads people keep mentioning are only on cable company provided Tivos or if it only related to certain content i.e. only Viacom recorded shows (CBS, etc) - of all the random primetime shows we record, we have yet to get any annoying commercial. The only thing that really annoys me are the ads in the Live Guide listings.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

dougtv said:


> The only thing that really annoys me are the ads in the Live Guide listings.


I think you mean the "grid guide". They were gone for a few days last week, but are back again. No, they don't bother me.


----------



## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

I will stay with linear cable Tv and TiVo DVR until they die or until I die. Whichever comes first .

And I also have Antenna (also with TiVo), Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu, ESPN+, Disney+.


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

thyname said:


> I will stay with linear cable Tv and TiVo DVR until they die or until I die. Whichever comes first .
> 
> And I also have Antenna (also with TiVo), Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu, ESPN+, Disney+.


I say that's sound thinking, and you also embrace technology.  All you need now is more time to watch what's available. (First world problem I know).


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

dougtv said:


> Are pre rolled ads an issue for everyone? Ever since I upgraded to Hydra, other than a little bit of a laggy peformance on my Roamio Pro, I haven't noticed any terrible issues.
> 
> I was wondering if these new prerolled ads people keep mentioning are only on cable company provided Tivos or if it only related to certain content i.e. only Viacom recorded shows (CBS, etc) - of all the random primetime shows we record, we have yet to get any annoying commercial. The only thing that really annoys me are the ads in the Live Guide listings.


I'm using a Bolt on OTA and a few, make it that two ads in a week is what I've seen. I think the whole system is an ongoing beta test even if they say it's not. I think Tivo's servers have been a bit slow the past couple days I'm seeing some lag with a couple of blue circles, it usually goes away and then the lags are gone for months.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Access to my account has been very slow for the last week or longer. It can take two minutes to get from TiVo.com to device preferences. Yet the other items, like lineup or SM pages don't seem to be affected.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> I don't follow. Streaming lets you watch what you want when you want without having to record it even.


Until those shows go away, which happens ALL the time.


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Thanks. I'm starting to understand. Watching CNBC, it seems that half the discussions are on streaming. One conclusion from most: too many services with too few viewers at a price that some feel is too high. Result will be fewer services with more content. Expect merger mania later this year.


Could be. But for services offered by the content owners, another possible outcome. Since the real expense is the cost of content, not the streaming service itself, perhaps pricing models will change based on quantity of content offered or more a la carte offerings.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> Until those shows go away, which happens ALL the time.


If you didn't watch it then what does that say about your interest in the show?

Nevermind nothing really goes away. Much of the same stuff that goes away ALL the time also comes back ALL the time.

Plus the original point remains: being able to watch old shows via other streaming services makes a 9 month storage limit even more doable not less doable.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

trip1eX said:


> 2 points
> 
> 1) YTTV completely replaces cable and Tivo for $50/mo. So you would only need YTTV and not Hulu nor Netflix nor an HD antenna nor a Sports streaming service. YTTV is essentially no different than switching cable companies in that regard. You would have to check the channel lineup etc to see if you could make the switch. YTTV is considered an OTT (over the top) cable service.
> 
> ...


Most cable TV packages are bundled with internet and sometimes phone service. Youtube TV still requires broad band internet at an additional cost. Your cost comparison is not comping apples to apples.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

trip1eX said:


> I just see the artificial barriers falling there where eventually they just put the stuff on cable on their service same day.


This is what Disney will start doing in March when they launch their "FX on Hulu" initiative. New episodes of FX shows will be immediately available to stream on-demand on Hulu just after airing on FX (based on what I've read, anyhow). No need to wait until the next day as is the case with shows from ABC, NBC, and Fox that stream on Hulu. As I see it, they are using FX as their prestige content brand and want it to play pretty much the same role for Hulu that HBO will play for HBO Max.

I expect that, in time, ABC and Freeform shows will also immediately show up on Hulu just after airing. Heck, maybe we'll see them take a page from the Peacock playbook and start offering Jimmy Kimmel Live on Hulu a couple hours before it actually airs on ABC.


----------



## dougtv (May 20, 2015)

I gotta say...these streaming wars are exhausting. Somehow these companies are going to kill themselves (not completely) like they did with cable and satellite tv packaging. 

1) Cloud DVRs will never be as good as a hardware based DVR. EVER Change my mind lol

2) Oh I get channel X Y and Z...oh but no Comedy central. oh here I get Comedy Central, but now I can't get X or Z. Hey these guys have all my locals...except ABC because I am in Dallas and we have one of few non-disney owned ABC affiliates...oh Hulu they have it? oh but they don't have Nick or Comedy Central. This example turns people away from streaming all together...maybe that's their point in one regard though..

3) Shows do disappear. Sometimes shows come back...then you find out the music licensing wasn't renewed so the entire director/creator perspective for every episode in a series is missing from its initial "broadcast" 

4) Channel surfing. You can't compare it to traditional TV ever. Pluto TV actually at least tries to do a good job with actual channel up/down abilities for their service. I wish paid-streaming services (Sling, Hulu, YTTV, etc) tried this.

5) Oh but it's only $40 vs $120....wait now it's only $60 vs $120...wait now for everything it's $85 vs new cable deal for $80...etc ...the pricing will always go back/forth and sometimes Cable TV (if you want every channel and premium) will sometimes actually be the better value, especially with your own equipment.

6) Local Government and school district channels. I still have yet to see a streaming provider offer ALL local channels.... lol jk nobody really cares about these i know.


----------



## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

dougtv said:


> I gotta say...these streaming wars are exhausting. Somehow these companies are going to kill themselves (not completely) like they did with cable and satellite tv packaging.
> 
> 1) Cloud DVRs will never be as good as a hardware based DVR. EVER Change my mind lol
> 
> ...


I like the service Comcast provides and the price. I always have had luck with their Double Play and Triple Play promos.

For me it would be a lot more expensive to have only gigabit Comast internet, and then subscribe to the streaming services that have the channels I want.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Friday Night's Tonight Show:

What do you call Peacock, Hulu, Netflix, Prime, Disney+, Apple TV+ and Quibi?



Spoiler



Cable


----------



## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Besides having someone telling us when and how we should watch our shows.

Things have changed rapidly in the last few months. For example TiVo's new partnership with Sling, brought in by the former employee and now, TiVo CEO. In late December, Sling TV started raising the prices of its two main plans. The cost of the Sling Orange and Sling Blue plans each are rising from $20 to $30 per month. The cost of subscribing to both plans is rising from $35 to $45 per month. Hmm, imagine.

Consumer Reports (CR). Some services are cutting their offerings - and at least one is shutting down altogether. They include:
*
Sony PlayStation Vue:* Ceasing operations on Jan. 30. Sony says it's shuttering PlayStation Vue because of the rising cost of licensing content and growing competition among streaming services, CR report
*
FuboTV:* Dropped several channels on Jan. 1, including FX, National Geographic and Fox regional sports networks.
*
AT&T TV Now:* Dropping NFL Network. New plans also drop A&E, AMC and Discovery. CR also reports that rumors suggest this service could shut down soon.

Welcome to the "brave new world" same as the old world. ???
Looks like we can run, but cannot hide from getting robbed, again.


----------



## lparsons21 (Feb 17, 2015)

Slight correction, each of Sling’s products went up from $25 to $30 and the combo went up $10


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> Most cable TV packages are bundled with internet and sometimes phone service. Youtube TV still requires broad band internet at an additional cost. Your cost comparison is not comping apples to apples.


I didn't do a cost comparison. All I said was YTTV is$50/mo and it replaces cable and tivo. I didn't say it replaced internet nor phone.

I did say you certainly don't need YTTV plus netflix plus antenna plus sports streaming etc to replace cable like you stated.


----------



## mde8965 (Dec 8, 2019)

trip1eX said:


> I didn't do a cost comparison. All I said was YTTV is$50/mo and it replaces cable and tivo. I didn't say it replaced internet nor phone.
> 
> I did say you certainly don't need YTTV plus netflix plus antenna plus sports streaming etc to replace cable like you stated.


And I said that depending on what types of programming you watch and what channels you need (or want) you might very well need all of the above or you will be giving up something.

Or you can stay with cable and the cost difference is likely negligible.

Or, as you said, you can change your viewing habits, giving up certain things and getting access to other things you didn't have before.

The point of my post was to say that those of us still firmly in the cable tv camp like what we have, don't want to give up things to get other things we don't know if we will like, and don't want to make our video content viewing such a chore (as it would be with multiple streaming services to replace all the channels that we like in cable.

I understand some are happy to be cord cutters and others enjoy cable tv (with TiVo). Nobody is wrong here. But to say that the market will all gravitate to streaming services (non cable provider) does not make sense. If the world eventually goes all IPTV then the same companies that are our ISPs will continue to offer bundles (without the coax). And maybe the future TiVo stream will work with our ISPs/cable companies (maybe they would be called ISTVP companies) to provide the live tv component along with the big three or four streaming services. Sounds very similar to the edge, minus the coax connection. (Disclaimer this paragraph is me wishing and prophecizing like everyone depicting the end of cable companies)...


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mde8965 said:


> And I said that depending on what types of programming you watch and what channels you need (or want) you might very well need all of the above or you will be giving up something.


 Does anyone say if you switch to DirectTV from Comcast that you would need an HD antenna, Hulu (with ad skip), Netflix, some sort of sports streaming package, etc ?

No. Because it's nonsense. Same thing here. It doesn't feel like you understand what YTTV is.


----------



## mde8965 (Dec 8, 2019)

trip1eX said:


> Does anyone say if you switch to DirectTV from Comcast that you would need an HD antenna, Hulu (with ad skip), Netflix, some sort of sports streaming package, etc ?
> 
> No. Because it's nonsense. Same thing here. It doesn't feel like you understand what YTTV is.


Actually yeah I do understand YTTV. In my household we regularly watch and enjoy the following stations not included on YTTV (Lifetime,Discovery Life, A&E, Game Show Network, History, TV Land, Hallmark). Now in order to get those stations live, Philo TV has all of them, but wait they don't have locals or sports. Damn. How about Fubo TV. They have some but not History or TV land. But wait they don't have ESPN(s) and my Florida Sports. Hulu + Live. Well they have all but two of the above but are missing several others not mentioned that YTTV has and they cost $75/month ++.

So I sign up for YTTV, I will need Philo in addition in the very least. But now I am at $80/month+. And I still have to pay spectrum $95 or $100 per month for internet/phone. That's a savings of $10/month from my current cable bill. For what? I want to watch the game. That's on YTTV. During the time out, what's on A&E. Oh wait need to switch apps to Philo. No thank you! There is a value for convenience. And for my family, until an IPTV provider develops a package that has all my channels with a way to DVR, cable is where I will be.


----------



## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

dougtv said:


> I gotta say...these streaming wars are exhausting. Somehow these companies are going to kill themselves (not completely) like they did with cable and satellite tv packaging.
> 
> 1) Cloud DVRs will never be as good as a hardware based DVR. EVER Change my mind lol
> 
> ...


You forgot a few things:

Oh, now I don't have a 2 year lock in on my cable contract

Oh, now I don't have to take their phone service to get the best price.

Oh, now I don't have to pay for their crappy cable box when they move all the good channels to IPTV

Oh, now I don't have to take their other services just to get a decent price on internet with a contract. (5G is here and it's pretty nice.)


----------



## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

mde8965 said:


> And I said that depending on what types of programming you watch and what channels you need (or want) you might very well need all of the above or you will be giving up something.
> 
> Or you can stay with cable and the cost difference is likely negligible.
> 
> ...


There is certainly nothing wrong with liking cable. Just keep in mind that they are moving to IPTV and it will be a little more like streaming with it's cloud DVR at that time. Some of the cable companies are actually looking into switching to just internet and offering one of the streaming services for their TV service. Comcast may be one of those looking.


----------



## Adam C. (Jul 24, 2017)

TV viewing habits, for the most part, can be broken out by age group.

Age 50+: You are fully committed to traditional cable TV. You have had the same "Triple Play" package for at least a decade. You know exactly what channel number corresponds to each network. You have heard of Netflix and Hulu but only subscribe to one of them (probably Netflix). You have a Roku or Fire Stick connected to your TV (but only because your kid helped you set it up). Since you have been a cable TV subscriber for 30+ years you are not giving up now. You'll complain to your friends about the price increases, but since you can't give up watching your favorite team you'll continue with cable for the long haul.

Age 35-49: You have 2 or more streaming services and have at least experimented with OTA. You're somewhat familiar with OTA TV and antennas because you remember your parents had one when you were little. You watch a lot of Netflix, but you subscribe to YTTV or Hulu live because you need ESPN and can't miss the big game (and your wife needs it for Lifetime and HGTV). There is also at least 1 broadcast network that doesn't have good OTA reception at your home, thus the need for a live TV streaming service. There are some holdouts in this group that are still grasping onto traditional cable. You're still talking to your friends about the best streaming packages before you take the plunge.

Age 25-34: You are fully committed to streaming. You subscribe to 3 or more streaming services to get the right combination of channels and programming that you want (this may even add up to more than the cost of cable when all is said and done). You have heard people talking about OTA TV and antennas but you're not going to bother with that as you don't have any interest in the programming on broadcast TV.

Age 24 and under: You watch Youtube on your phone or tablet. You also watch Netflix because your friend or parent shared his/her password with you. You don't even own or use a TV. You're not familiar with the term "network" and acronyms like CBS and NBC are not part of your vocabulary.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mde8965 said:


> Actually yeah I do understand YTTV. In my household we regularly watch and enjoy the following stations not included on YTTV (Lifetime,Discovery Life, A&E, Game Show Network, History, TV Land, Hallmark). Now in order to get those stations live, Philo TV has all of them, but wait they don't have locals or sports. Damn. How about Fubo TV. They have some but not History or TV land. But wait they don't have ESPN(s) and my Florida Sports. Hulu + Live. Well they have all but two of the above but are missing several others not mentioned that YTTV has and they cost $75/month ++.
> 
> So I sign up for YTTV, I will need Philo in addition in the very least. But now I am at $80/month+. And I still have to pay spectrum $95 or $100 per month for internet/phone. That's a savings of $10/month from my current cable bill. For what? I want to watch the game. That's on YTTV. During the time out, what's on A&E. Oh wait need to switch apps to Philo. No thank you! There is a value for convenience. And for my family, until an IPTV provider develops a package that has all my channels with a way to DVR, cable is where I will be.


No one is arguing that switching to YTTV makes sense for you if you desire 7 channels it doesn't carry.

As I said originally:

" YTTV completely replaces cable and Tivo for $50/mo. So you would only need YTTV and not Hulu nor Netflix nor an HD antenna nor a Sports streaming service. YTTV is essentially no different than switching cable companies in that regard. You would have to _*check the channel lineup** etc to see if you could make the switch.*_ YTTV is considered an OTT (over the top) cable service."


----------



## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Adam C. said:


> TV viewing habits, for the most part, can be broken out by age group...


Pretty good generalization over all.

But I think you're underestimating the price aspect that's driving cord cutting. I'm old, well into your 50+ bracket. I make a good living, but I'm also a cheapskate who couldn't care less about sports. With YTTV, I get essentially the same channel lineup and DVR capability on a couple of TVs for $50 that would cost me well over $100 with cable.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> As I said originally:
> 
> " *YTTV completely replaces cable and Tivo for $50/mo.* So you would only need YTTV and not Hulu nor Netflix nor an HD antenna nor a Sports streaming service. YTTV is essentially no different than switching cable companies in that regard. You would have to _*check the channel lineup** etc to see if you could make the switch.*_ YTTV is considered an OTT (over the top) cable service."


Yeah, and those two statements contradict each other. YTTV does not completely replace common cable packages for $50/mo., so avoid making blanket statements that it does.

Nor does their DVR service completely replace the Tivo DVR experience.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yeah, and those two statements contradict each other. YTTV does not completely replace common cable packages for $50/mo., so avoid making blanket statements that it does.
> 
> Nor does their DVR service completely replace the Tivo DVR experience.


It completely replaces cable and Tivo. Do you think it only partially replaces it so anyone getting YTTV is keeping their Tivo and cable service? Sounds like nonsense.

Saying "check the channel lineup" is recognizing everyone has the exact channels they want. And it may be missing a few that someone desires. Doesn't change that it completely replaces cable. And it makes it not a blanket statement.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Gotta love TCF: this thread has gone way OT, but we're all fully engaged in the conversation. Just for the record, this has all been discussed in the "TiVo Alternatives" thread and numerous others with words like "Cord Cutting" in the title. But now _once more unto the breach, dear friends..._

@Adam C.'s age groups are generally valid, though I'm well into the 50+ range but behave a little more like 35-49, and our kids are under 24 but do a few things like the 25-34 group. One missing piece is that many of us have Amazon Prime. And for my wife and I there is an overemphasis on sports in that analysis: the biggest barrier to cord cutting here is cable news and talk.

I've worked out our cord-cutting options on a spreadsheet, including cable vs. OTA plus various combinations of TVE, OTT, and streaming services. Channels DVR can record much of TVE and OTT, so replaces TiVo where necessary, but that cost is small. The big variable is the cost of internet, which goes up if I cancel cable. The result is I can't save more than $20 a month, and even that may be temporary. As long as we still want live access to certain cable news and talk shows, it's not worth the trouble.


----------



## Adam C. (Jul 24, 2017)

trip1eX said:


> Nonsense. It completely replaces cable and Tivo. Do you think it only partially replaces it so anyone getting YTTV is keeping their Tivo and cable service? Nonsense.
> 
> .


I agree. If someone already has cable what would be the point of subscribing to YTTV or a similar service.


----------



## Adam C. (Jul 24, 2017)

mdavej said:


> Pretty good generalization over all.
> 
> But I think you're underestimating the price aspect that's driving cord cutting. I'm old, well into your 50+ bracket. I make a good living, but I'm also a cheapskate who couldn't care less about sports. With YTTV, I get essentially the same channel lineup and DVR capability on a couple of TVs for $50 that would cost me well over $100 with cable.


I hear you. Another thing to consider is that the older a person gets the less receptive they are to change, regardless of any cost savings. My father is 74 years old. He told me his cable rates went up again recently but he has to pay it "because they know I can't switch to anything else". Cable TV has been so ingrained in his life for so long that he truly believes there is no alternative. I have had conversations with him (and other people in this age bracket) and they won't even let me finish the conversation about alternative streaming services. They hear Roku and Fire Stick and it's like a foreign language. They have no interest in learning something new or changing their habits, regardless of how much money could be saved.


----------



## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Adam C. said:


> I hear you. Another thing to consider is that the older a person gets the less receptive they are to change, regardless of any cost savings. My father is 74 years old. He told me his cable rates went up again recently but he has to pay it "because they know I can't switch to anything else". Cable TV has been so ingrained in his life for so long that he truly believes there is no alternative. I have had conversations with him (and other people in this age bracket) and they won't even let me finish the conversation about alternative streaming services. They hear Roku and Fire Stick and it's like a foreign language. They have no interest in learning something new or changing their habits, regardless of how much money could be saved.


I like to call it "tough love", but with my 85 y/o Mom, and me having been paying her cable and/or satellite bill for years, I just did it and dealt with the fallout later. Between mine and hers, I'm saving nearly $200/month by sharing a single YTTV subscription.

Whenever something goes wrong with her streaming (router locks up, internet goes out, etc.), she still blames "DirecTV". She thinks YTTV IS DirecTV, but they "changed it". In any case, as most people do when they have no other choice, she adapted and now manages just fine. She had been using Netflix and Prime on a Fire Stick for years before, so that probably softened the blow a little.

One thing that really helped was to get her a Fire TV edition TV. So there's no external stick or input switching or juggling remotes. And she only really watches 3 channels, which I've put at the very top of her channel list, making navigation as simple as possible. It's actually simpler for her than when she had cable and the Tivo system that I'd set her up with as well as the DirecTV system she had before that.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Sports fans thinking of relying on OTT (like YouTube TV) or TVE (like Xfinity Stream) need to know one important thing: everything is delayed by up to a minute. If you don't mind seeing a whole bunch of tweets and hearing your neighbors scream and cheer before you've even seen a critical play begin, go ahead.

When recording shows via TVE with Channels DVR I just need to add a minute or two of padding at the end, and the cloud DVRs included with many of those services probably adjust automatically. But watching live sports via TVE or OTT would drive me nuts.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Adam C. said:


> I agree. If someone already has cable what would be the point of subscribing to YTTV or a similar service.


To replace it.


----------



## dougtv (May 20, 2015)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Sports fans thinking of relying on OTT (like YouTube TV) or TVE (like Xfinity Stream) need to know one important thing: everything is delayed by up to a minute. If you don't mind seeing a whole bunch of tweets and hearing your neighbors scream and cheer before you've even seen a critical play begin, go ahead.
> 
> When recording shows via TVE with Channels DVR I just need to add a minute or two of padding at the end, and the cloud DVRs included with many of those services probably adjust automatically. But watching live sports via TVE or OTT would drive me nuts.


I remember when Vue first came out and I had a new years eve party...let's just everyone was confused why the ball was dropping 2-3 minutes after everybody's phone said 12:00AM for awhile...


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Sports fans thinking of relying on OTT (like YouTube TV) or TVE (like Xfinity Stream) need to know one important thing: everything is delayed by up to a minute. If you don't mind seeing a whole bunch of tweets and hearing your neighbors scream and cheer before you've even seen a critical play begin, go ahead.
> 
> When recording shows via TVE with Channels DVR I just need to add a minute or two of padding at the end, and the cloud DVRs included with many of those services probably adjust automatically. But watching live sports via TVE or OTT would drive me nuts.


Interesting. It is a good con for the YTTV thread. I guess I watch everything tape delayed and did so on TiVo as well so I never thought about it and I was already used to ignoring texts. Lol. Also not on social media.

I am going to test out the delay in live sports on Comcast compared to YTTV tonight just to see how delayed it is. Will be out of town and have access to both.

Good article on the subject:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si...ernet-tv-lagging-delay-explanation-fix-future


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

trip1eX said:


> Interesting. It is a good con for the YTTV thread. I guess I watch everything tape delayed and did so on TiVo as well so I never thought about it and I was already used to ignoring texts. Lol. Also not on social media.
> 
> I am going to test out the delay in live sports on Comcast compared to YTTV tonight just to see how delayed it is. Will be out of town and have access to both.
> 
> ...


Looking forward to your results. On YTTV sometimes it may be just 30 seconds, but I wouldn't put up with that especially if I had money on the game. On TVE recordings I've had to pad at least 1 minute at the end, but since they often overlap news and talk into the next show for a smooth handoff, I added 3 minutes because that's the next increment offered by Channels. Again, cloud DVRs probably adjust for this automatically, but I haven't tried one and anyway that doesn't help with live sports.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Looking forward to your results. On YTTV sometimes it may be just 30 seconds, but I wouldn't put up with that especially if I had money on the game. On TVE recordings I've had to pad at least 1 minute at the end, but since they often overlap news and talk into the next show for a smooth handoff, I added 3 minutes because that's the next increment offered by Channels. Again, cloud DVRs probably adjust for this automatically, but I haven't tried one and anyway that doesn't help with live sports.


Yeah if you read that article it gets pretty in depth into the topic of delay in live sports streaming.

One source later in the article says the delay should eventually catch up to cable and surpass it. The tech is getting better. Connections are getting better. Also was interesting that the delay will vary device to device and service to service.

Also in the beginning live sports streaming was treated as a 2nd class citizen. It is now getting 1st class treatment.

A lot of the sports betting services want to offer streaming right in the app and so there is big interest in improving live sports streaming lag.


----------



## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Sports fans thinking of relying on OTT (like YouTube TV) or TVE (like Xfinity Stream) need to know one important thing: everything is delayed by up to a minute.





trip1eX said:


> I am going to test out the delay in live sports on Comcast compared to YTTV tonight just to see how delayed it is.


I just compared YTTV to OTA, and my delay was exactly 38 seconds.

If I develop a sudden interest in sports, I'll either keep my phone in my pocket or just block everybody who doesn't also have YTTV ;-)

When you do your tests, trip1eX, realize that you have to change the channel on YTTV before you exit. Otherwise, when you switch back, it will resume where you left off, making the delay appear to be minutes rather than seconds.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mdavej said:


> I just compared YTTV to OTA, and my delay was exactly 38 seconds.
> 
> If I develop a sudden interest in sports, I'll either keep my phone in my pocket or just block everybody who doesn't also have YTTV ;-)
> 
> When you do your tests, trip1eX, realize that you have to change the channel on YTTV before you exit. Otherwise, when you switch back, it will resume where you left off, making the delay appear to be minutes rather than seconds.


I did a road test. Lol. I got a text saying TD. Then ran the app on my phone. Then hit Live. Took a few seconds to do that and then a few more seconds to load live footage. Then about 10 seconds later. Touchdown! 

I imagine the delay compared to cable will be a little better than compared to OTA.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

trip1eX said:


> I did a road test. Lol. I got a text saying TD. Then ran the app on my phone. Then hit Live. Took a few seconds to do that and then a few more seconds to load live footage. Then about 10 seconds later. Touchdown!
> 
> I imagine the delay compared to cable will be a little better than compared to OTA.


Instant replay! Oh, wait...


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Got in late. 10 second delay on live Aussie Open tennis tournament on ESPN2. Probably helped by the fact it is in Australia. Only live event on now.

The feed of NBAtv is 20 seconds behind. Not a live event. Just a show.

YTTV compared to Comcast. YTTV is on iPad.


----------



## mde8965 (Dec 8, 2019)

Question related to the original topic of this thread.

Let’s assume that I cut the cord to the cable company and decide that the YTTV and Philo combo is my choice. 

will the TiVo stream eventually be able to accommodate both apps and allow both to be open at one time? For instance I’m watching ESPN on YTTV in one room and someone else is watching a show on Philo in another room? Guessing that’s not an issue. 

More complicated, will TiVo stream let me watch ESPN on YTTV and hit the proverbial “back” button to go back and forth with a show on A&E on Philo? All the while recoding a different show from Lifetime on Philo?

If this is the end game on TiVo Stream or Apple TV or Roku or some device, then for my family this would become a very viable option to the cable company. 

If nothing does this now, do you think it is possible in the future? And how about the “guide” including both my YTTV and Philo channels in one guide and when I hit “ok” on the guide it opens to appropriate app?


----------



## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

mdavej said:


> Pretty good generalization over all.
> 
> But I think you're underestimating the price aspect that's driving cord cutting. I'm old, well into your 50+ bracket. I make a good living, but I'm also a cheapskate who couldn't care less about sports. With YTTV, I get essentially the same channel lineup and DVR capability on a couple of TVs for $50 that would cost me well over $100 with cable.


Very true. Folks who are looking to replace every single station of cable or are not willing to lose even one of their "favorite" channels should stay with cable. I got tired of the 2 year lock in and now with T-Moblie Home I have normally 70Mbps internet with NO data caps for a flat $50. I use YTTV but switch on and off other services like HBONow or CBSAA whenever there is a good series I want to binge. Being able to switch on and off the single stuff with a click is perfect for me.


----------



## dougtv (May 20, 2015)

If Tivo stream is based on android, it already ended. Yes, there are other Android based streaming devices including FireTV that have had their fair share of lag and hiccups. Android rules but depending on who creates their software on top of it, there is going to be so many issues during its launch and early days.

Tivo used to innovate, now they are copying and pasting products like everyone else in that market. If they even try to compare something like Apple TV to Tivo stream, they better only try to prove their remote control is better than Apple’s siri remote, because that is all Tivo has going from them.

To compete with FireTV, you know Tivo will have annoying ads too just like Amazon pushes their ecosystem. FireTV also has Alexa...what can Tivo Stream bring to the party?

Roku has a ton of apps. Cool remote controls. Is Tivo just bringing their sound effects to the party?

And those who are more technical and enjoy ShieldTV stuff, they wont even care to look at a tivo streaming device.

For Tivo to try and knock on the doors with their android based software and trying to compete with AppleTV, FireTV, and Roku is going to be a rather nasty fall for Tivo. I try to be optimistic in life, but this is a losing battle if there is nothing new to the table. If they think Sling will help draw new audiences...Sling has a lot of work to do compared to other streaming providers that have better quality than Sling.


----------



## saeba (Oct 12, 2004)

mschnebly said:


> Very true. Folks who are looking to replace every single station of cable or are not willing to lose even one of their "favorite" channels should stay with cable.


LOL. The idea of "stability" with cable is not always the case. For example, Comcast recently dropped a couple of channels from their base HD package in my area. They also dropped support of their OnDemand functionality with TiVo. All of the services (cable, streaming) are evolving (adding/deleting functionality) and people should really keep checking to determine if they are utilizing the "best" solution for their needs.

And in near future, there will be many more options for Internet access beyond cable - 5G, low-latency satellite, etc. Thus further reducing dependency on cable providers.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mde8965 said:


> Question related to the original topic of this thread.
> 
> Let's assume that I cut the cord to the cable company and decide that the YTTV and Philo combo is my choice.
> 
> ...


I forgot what the original topic of this thread even is, lol. Here's what I know. You're asking good questions, but I think you're assuming that the Stream 4K can be a server for more than one TV. That is not the intent, at least initially.

It's more like one dongle per TV, like a TiVo Mini, like the AirTV Mini it seems to share hardware with, and like all those Fire TV, Roku, Apple, etc. boxes and sticks that work on one TV at a time. As with all of those, you completely exit one streaming app to watch something in another, but most apps at least remember where you were when you return.

It will be nice if the Stream 4K interface and remote will allow easy one-button switching between all apps, but at least initially development efforts seem focused on ease of access to Sling and TiVo+, so we'll have to wait and see. The launch is scheduled for April. Meanwhile you'll find more info in this thread: TiVo Launches $50 Streaming Video Player to Take On Apple TV, Roku, Amazon Fire TV


----------



## mde8965 (Dec 8, 2019)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> but I think you're assuming that the Stream 4K can be a server for more than one TV. That is not the intent, at least initially.


OK that's not a problem. I assume one can have more than one TiVo stream attached to the same account? So that something I recorded from the device in the living room will be available for play in another room as long as there is a TiVo stream there. And I do realize this would be based on the DVR restrictions/rules of the YTTV and Philo services.

But until I can seamlessly go between apps from a guide that has both services I likely would not switch from cable unless the cost differential were worth it (like $50+ per month) which it isn't currently.

I travel a good bit for work and my 84yo dad comes to stay at the house and watches my pets when I'm away. He's great with tech for his age. (He runs IOS devices better than me for sure). But he's fearful of screwing up my tech. So if he were here and wanted to say go from YTTV channel to a channel on Philo and something happened he did not expect he would likely turn off the tv entirely and stream his spectrum to his iPad. I would feel terrible if he was doing that for days until I got home.

Me, I'm in my 50s and very good with tech. I worked in IT for a few years and am just a tech junkie. But I'm lazy too. So if I had to close YTTV and switch apps just to see what was on lifetime (Philo) for instance I'd probably end up rarely ever doing that. And so my meager cost savings with cord cutting would end up costing me several channels. LOL. One day there will be streaming services that don't require compromise (ie missing stations). YTTV has made strides in this regard and they will likely continue.

I think I actually look forward to the day when cable companies go IPTV. I just hope there is a viable DVR solution, either cloud based, or hardware (like TiVo). Oh and lots of competition. Meaning more ISPs offering IPTV crop up all over to keep the costs down and the service levels up. The cable co. Oligopoly is a big part of the reason cable companies suck so bad and people are desperate for alternatives.


----------



## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

You can already do that. Recast plus Philo is one example of combined OTA and streaming in one app/guide. And it runs on a $20 Fire stick.


----------



## mde8965 (Dec 8, 2019)

mdavej said:


> You can already do that. Recast plus Philo is one example of combined OTA and streaming in one app/guide. And it runs on a $20 Fire stick.


Forgive if I'm wrong, but that solution would not include sports (ESPN, SEC, ACCN, FS1 and 2, etc.). Which is a big deal for me for college football and my Tampa Bay Rays.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mde8965 said:


> OK that's not a problem. I assume one can have more than one TiVo stream attached to the same account? So that something I recorded from the device in the living room will be available for play in another room as long as there is a TiVo stream there. And I do realize this would be based on the DVR restrictions/rules of the YTTV and Philo services.
> 
> But until I can seamlessly go between apps from a guide that has both services I likely would not switch from cable unless the cost differential were worth it (like $50+ per month) which it isn't currently.
> 
> ...


You can certainly view the same cloud DVR recordings on different Stream 4K dongles, sure. But as @mdavej says, you can get a polished functional interface for doing just that right now, by buying a Fire TV Stick 4K for less the discounted and untested TiVo Stream 4K.

Since you're technical, often travel, and are hoping for an integrated DVR solution, I suggest you also check out Channels DVR, which can record most content from YTTV, Philo, and other TVE providers including cable companies' IPTV/OTT type streaming, as well as HD HomeRun OTA and CableCARD boxes. Channels DVR stores it all on your own local server, and plays it through one simple interface for local or remote viewing. I have it on a Synology NAS here. The non-technical members of my family only interact with it via simple and friendly apps for Fire TV, iOS, Android, and Apple TV.

Our Roamio Pro's hard disk is starting to go, we've transitioned much of our DVR time to Channels, and we're very close to going all Channels all the time. Other streaming is all on Fire TV already. The Stream 4K is about five years too late for us, but if TiVo is still around in five years maybe we'll be back.


----------



## mde8965 (Dec 8, 2019)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> You can certainly view the same cloud DVR recordings on different Stream 4K dongles, sure. But as @mdavej says, you can get a polished functional interface for doing just that right now, by buying a Fire TV Stick 4K for less the discounted and untested TiVo Stream 4K.
> 
> Since you're technical, often travel, and are hoping for an integrated DVR solution, I suggest you also check out Channels DVR, which can record most content from YTTV, Philo, and other TVE providers including cable companies' IPTV/OTT type streaming, as well as HD HomeRun OTA and CableCARD boxes. Channels DVR stores it all on your own local server, and plays it through one simple interface for local or remote viewing. I have it on a Synology NAS here. The non-technical members of my family only interact with it via simple and friendly apps for Fire TV, iOS, Android, and Apple TV.
> 
> Our Roamio Pro's hard disk is starting to go, we've transitioned much of our DVR time to Channels, and we're very close to going all Channels all the time. Other streaming is all on Fire TV already. The Stream 4K is about five years too late for us, but if TiVo is still around in five years maybe we'll be back.


Thanks for this. I definitely will check out Channels. I have 2 Synology NAS with over 30TB.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mde8965 said:


> Thanks for this. I definitely will check out Channels. I have 2 Synology NAS with over 30TB.


I think you'll like it. But note that I said "most" content. Some standard cable channels like A&E and Comedy central do not allow the web streams Channels DVR requires. That's one reason I still have an HDHR Prime CableCARD box serving Channels DVR. And neither will get you Premium channels like HBO.


----------



## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mde8965 said:


> Forgive if I'm wrong, but that solution would not include sports (ESPN, SEC, ACCN, FS1 and 2, etc.). Which is a big deal for me for college football and my Tampa Bay Rays.


Correct. But if you use YTTV instead, you probably don't need OTA at all, hence would only have a single guide just like you do on your Tivo today.

As I said in another post, my 85 y/o mother handles YTTV and Recast OTA just fine. Now that YTTV carries PBS, there's really just one channel she watches on OTA that's not on YTTV. It really just comes down to how much the savings is worth to you. Making no change at all is usually the easier path.

While Channels is great with its ability to record streams, the infrastructure has more complexity and moving parts than I want to deal with, not to mention a monthly cost that I don't want to pay. If you already have a NAS and don't mind managing seperate storage, tuners and servers, then I guess it's not a big deal. But the reason I got Tivo in the first place was to get away from all that complexity. Recast replaces Tivo with a single box. With YTTV, you may not even need Recast at all.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Well to me the appeal of YTTV is it replaces cable. If I had to also get another 2nd cable tv replacement service in order to replace cable then the attraction would probably go away. And getting something like Channels in addition to YTTV is not attractive either to me. 9 months (unlimited storage) is plenty. and like was said above, paying ~$8/mo for guide data and fiddling with a 2nd UI...and needing other equipment...ruins what is great about YTTV.


On the other hand, Philo isn't that far away from being basically being an optional YTTV channel package. lol. Just has a different UI and is a bit pricey because of some redundancies and the fact it's a different service. lol.

I mean a recent YTTV survey proposed adding a bunch of channels for $10/mo more. Basically a lot of missing channels that PLuto carries. So getting (Philo) in addition to YTTV is not terrible in that regard everything else considered. (Philo) would only be $10/mo more than what YTTV could end up costing if it adds extra channels.


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

wizwor said:


> This is not true. About 80% still rely on cable for television. Cable has been adding 'value' to their products for decades. High Speed Internet and VOIP have been around forever. Security systems smart home are recent adds.
> 
> Again, not true. The State of Traditional TV: Updated With Q3 2018 Data - Marketing Charts
> 
> ...


All I can say is: how many people voice the above thoughts OUTSIDE of this forum? I was also talking about the current trends. Cable TV is in decline - the market is shrinking, quality is declining and content costs are rising. Content owners are bypassing the cable companies (Disney Plus, HBO Max, etc.) making cable less and less valuable. More and more people are relying on OTT services (some forecasts say half the households in the US will not have a cable TV subscription in the next 5 years). There is no profit in cable TV, the money is in broadband and that is where the providers are investing.


----------

