# How to lose a long term customer in one easy lesson



## RVH (Dec 19, 2006)

I hope someone from Tivo management is paying attention...

I have been a Tivo customer for more than ten years and have purchased four Tivo boxes all with lifetime subscriptions. I was an early adopter of Tivo and have been an advocate and probably recommended at least a dozen people to buy. I've been a loyal customer and seemingly the type of customer any company would want.

But, no longer. Read on...

I bought a new Tivo Premier that I put in service in December 2010 and that failed over the weekend (continuous Starting Up loop); and after a conversation with a support rep yesterday he tells me that the box is bad and they will replace it... *FOR a $50 charge*! It turns out that the Tivo box itself has but a 90-day warranty and my six months was way past that.

So, of course I bit the bullet and paid for the exchange, but, am I PISSED! This unit has less than six months of service and it's bad??? And, they want me to pay for the exchange???

In this day and age of trying to earn long term customer loyalty, Tivo really blew it. The rep was totally unsympathetic and could do nothing. Given my status as a long term, loyal customer, he should have the authority to waive the fee.

So, instead, here I am on this forum bad-mouthing Tivo and telling the world to not trust them. Frankly, the Tivo Premier box wasn't nearly as good as I'd hoped and for a company who pioneered user interface design for DVRs has totally failed on this one.

I'm not buying any more Tivo stuff and I urge every one else to think twice. I will go out of my way to tell everyone I know the story.

Thanks for listening to me vent,

Bob


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

Can you add the $40 three-year extended warranty to your replacement box?

I did that with my new Premiere, considering all the 'issues' with the Premiere I've read about on this forum.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RVH said:


> So, instead, here I am on this forum bad-mouthing Tivo and telling the world to not trust them.


not trust them on what? At what point did TiVo tell you something they did not do?
it turns out I know the warranty period on something when I buy it and it is not hard to find out the 90 day period for a TiVo. So TiVo acted in accordance with the sales terms.

Now you can not like that all you want and you can certainly post you do not like it, but there was no broken agreement on TiVo incs. part, just simply no effort to go beyond the agreement for you.


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## PaperFriend (May 31, 2011)

When you don't purchase the extended warranty then the cost falls on you. Your story gives a good reason why to purchase their extended warranty. It is inexpensive and you found out the hard way. TIVO did nothing wrong. 

I know the warranty period for every piece of electronics I buy. If I chose not to get an extended warranty then I take that risk for myself and only hold myself accountable.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

So there's no warranty and they only are going to charge you $50 to exchange it? That seems like a good deal to me. Try getting that deal with other electronics manufacturers.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

I don't think the word "loyal" is being used correctly.


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## RVH (Dec 19, 2006)

Wow, just like in a number of other posts, you guys sure like to pounce, don't you!



> not trust them on what?


Trust them to do the right thing for a long term, loyal customer. That's what I meant. Yes, I understand they did everything according to the letter of their contract. So, kudos for them.

I am in business for myself and I pride myself for having long term, loyal customers. That means sometimes I have to go above and beyond for them. Sounds like you guys are not in that camp.



> So there's no warranty and they only are going to charge you $50 to exchange it? That seems like a good deal to me. Try getting that deal with other electronics manufacturers.


 If this failed eighteen months after, I wouldn't have a problem, but after less than six months, I consider that extenuating circumstances. In that situation, then $50 would be extremely generous.

Orangeboy - "loyal" is being used correctly. If ten years and four lifetime purchases doesn't count as loyal, then we are speaking a different language.

I've been in high tech for twenty five years and have been buying PCs, printers, routers, etc for at least that long. The number of devices that actually fail is very small; and if they do fail they do so quite quickly. That's why I routinely don't buy extended warranties.

90-day warranty is extremely short. Western Digital disk drives have between a 2 and 5-yr warranty - isn't a Tivo box mostly just a disk drive with some software? The disk drive is the thing most likely to die. iPad has a one year warranty.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

RVH said:


> .........In this day and age of trying to earn long term customer loyalty........


Really? Can anyone supply examples of businesses that are doing that? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I can't think of any obvious examples just off hand.

The kind of loyalty you envision is very unlikely for the impersonal transactions that are typical when dealing with corporations of any size. The concept might apply for a local mom-and-pop retailer you deal with on a face-to-face basis but if TiVo's were sold that way they would cost several times what they do.

I also don't understand the concept that buying something over a ten year period constitutes loyalty on your part. Didn't you buy it because it was the best value for the money you could get? Loyalty would be if you bought it in spite of being able to get a better value elsewhere.

I think "loyalty" is almost always just a buzz word that both sellers and buyers use when the facts aren't deemed to be sufficiently convincing!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RVH said:


> Wow, just like in a number of other posts, you guys sure like to pounce, don't you!


nope. The *full* context of my post notes that TiVo did not go beyond the terms for you, as you expected, and you can expect whatever you want.
but when you say a company is not to be trusted, that implies they do not live up to the terms they set forth.

How that message is pouncing on you, I do not see.


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## RVH (Dec 19, 2006)

> Really? Can anyone supply examples of businesses that are doing that? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I can't think of any obvious examples just off hand.


Interesting you should ask. I just got off the phone with Staples customer service about something I bought six months ago (not warranty related) and they corrected something they didn't have to. They are an example of a company who values loyalty as I've been doing business with them for 20-yrs.

We just have to agree to disagree. I gave you my definition of "loyalty" and you are free to disagree.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

There are plenty of companies that will eat the cost of something to make customers happy. Tivo isn't one of them. Take your business elsewhere. Tivo has dug their own grave.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RVH said:


> Orangeboy - "loyal" is being used correctly. If ten years and four lifetime purchases doesn't count as loyal, then we are speaking a different language.


I speak English. Webster's defines loyal as "unswerving in allegiance". With statements like "I'm not buying any more Tivo stuff and I urge every one else to think twice. I will go out of my way to tell everyone I know the story.", it sounds like your allegiance to the TiVo products is hardly unswerving. You are a _long time_ customer, but your post is contrary to any form of loyalty.

A better example of loyalty would be Chicago Cubs fans, where despite the Cubs' epic losing streak, the fans continue to show up to support the team; not just show up if the team is in the playoffs.


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

Just for reference, at Verizon when you have a phone go bad out of warranty, and are not eligible for replacement due to time in contract, they will replace the phone for $49.

Considering the cost of a new unit, offering a token $50 replacement doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

However, at only 6 months I would have put my reasonable but firm hat on and tried calling a few times hoping for a little discretion...


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

RVH said:


> Wow, just like in a number of other posts, you guys sure like to pounce, don't you!


Pounce, no but i'll call B/S when i see it



RVH said:


> I have been a Tivo customer for more than ten years and have purchased four Tivo boxes all with lifetime subscriptions.


So you have a lot of experience with TiVo, apparently all good.



RVH said:


> It turns out that the Tivo box itself has but a 90-day warranty and my six months was way


All that experience and is not until you have a box go bad you notice a 90 day warranty, B/S



RVH said:


> I've been in high tech for twenty five years and have been buying PCs, printers, routers, etc for at least that long. The number of devices that actually fail is very small; and if they do fail they do so quite quickly. That's why I routinely don't buy extended warranties.


But you do know defects happen and with todays tech becoming more and more complicated and extended warranties being relatively cheap as to the cost of replacement or repair. Shame on you for not having one.



RVH said:


> So, instead, here I am on this forum bad-mouthing Tivo and telling the world to not trust them..


Frankly, its you I dont trust. I read the paper work i get, know what my warranties are and TiVo hasnt lied to me about anything and i suspect they havnt lied to you either. After ten years of reliable service and having one problem your ready to bad mouth TiVo and kick them to the curb, its them who should cancel you. But they wont, they value you as a customer and will surely take all the money your foolish enough to waste.

Had you read this forum you could have looked to the experience it offers and learned of tests to run to see if your TiVo's hard drive was bad, sounds like it. You also could have learned that you could buy an already formatted replacement online for about a hundred bucks probably better than what it came with and certainly larger and put it in yourself since your already out of warranty. Defects happen, get over it and move on or move out. To me, whole thing sounds like B/S


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

RVH said:


> Wow, just like in a number of other posts, you guys sure like to pounce, don't you!
> 
> Trust them to do the right thing for a long term, loyal customer. That's what I meant. Yes, I understand they did everything according to the letter of their contract. So, kudos for them.
> 
> ...


It sounds like $50 did go above and beyond. If all my out of warranty electronics could be replaced for only a $50 fee, I would be ecstatic.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DeWitt said:


> Just for reference, at Verizon when you have a phone go bad out of warranty, and are not eligible for replacement due to time in contract, they will replace the phone for $49.
> 
> Considering the cost of a new unit, offering a token $50 replacement doesn't sound unreasonable to me.
> 
> However, at only 6 months I would have put my reasonable but firm hat on and tried calling a few times hoping for a little discretion...


It doesn't work that way with Verizon here. If you have an extended warranty, then you only pay a $50 fee for a replacement phone. With no warranty they might give you a break but the cost will still be over $200. At least that has been my experience with them as well as a couple of friends that went through the same thing..


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Just another post by a disgruntled customer that failed to read the fine print. I know it sucks that your Tivo failed after only six months, but it only came with a 90-day warranty. That should have raised a red flag before you bought it. At least they offered you an exchange for only $50. I had to get an exchange unit when mine failed after exactly 91 days! It was a DirecTV HD model so I don't think I had to pay an exchange fee. I believe it had a 1-year parts warranty and only 90 days on the labor.

From the description of your problem, it sounds like either your hard drive failed or the software got corrupted when it took an update. Both scenarios could have easily been corrected had you simply created a backup image when you first got your Tivo. All you would have had to do was restore the image to a replacement drive and you'd have been up and running in no time without ever having to speak to a Tivo drone.

Everyone complains about Tivo's customer service. My solution is to never get into a situation that requires me to contact them. In the past 11 years of owning Tivos, I've only had to contact (DirecTV's) customer service twice regarding a Tivo problem, and both times it was for units that were installed by DirecTV technicians (so much for expert installation ). I have never had to deal with Tivo's customer service at all, and I've owned numerous standalone and HD Tivo models.


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## TroyM (Mar 11, 2003)

Yeah, it sucks that the warranty is only 90 days. It would be nice if Tivo rewarded loyalty (defined as long time subscriber) with some flexibility. 

Tivo did follow the letter of the agreement though. So, it's hard to fault them there even though I agree that 90 days is subpar. You might have some luck with your credit card company though. Most CCs, assuming you paid with a CC, will double the manufacturers warranty. You might be able to have the $50 refunded to your card. 

It's worth a try. Good luck!


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

Joe01880 said:


> ...TiVo hasnt lied to me about anything and i suspect they havnt lied to you either.


Actually, TiVo has lied to everyone with the Premiere, advertising it as a HD box with a HD interface, when it's only partially completed.

They also strongly misled customers by hiding the fact that if you wanted to continue to use Parental Controls available on the prior units, you had to DISABLE all the new features in the HD interface. So you bought a new box, but are forced to use the old interface or no parental controls for you.

TiVo has done outright lying and plenty of misleading on the Premiere.

That said, I would have just bought a new, larger drive off ebay instead of flushing $50 down the toilet for the same size unit. Most-likely the drive just failed.


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> It doesn't work that way with Verizon here. If you have an extended warranty, then you only pay a $50 fee for a replacement phone. With no warranty they might give you a break but the cost will still be over $200. At least that has been my experience with them as well as a couple of friends that went through the same thing..


I have no extended warranty. They said it was standard policy now, but you get just the guts of the phone (Probably a refurb). No new battery, accessories etc. (One button on mine was not working)

Have talked to three or 4 people since who where happily surprised by my experience and got the same deal.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

RVH said:


> Trust them to do the right thing for a long term, loyal customer. That's what I meant. Yes, I understand they did everything according to the letter of their contract. So, kudos for them.


Looks like somebody feels entitled for no good reason.
I.e. Different day, same ****.


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## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

RVH said:


> I hope someone from Tivo management is paying attention...
> 
> I have been a Tivo customer for more than ten years and have purchased four Tivo boxes all with lifetime subscriptions. I was an early adopter of Tivo and have been an advocate and probably recommended at least a dozen people to buy. I've been a loyal customer and seemingly the type of customer any company would want.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. Regardless of the 90 day warranty period expiring, regardless of whether you read the warranty, regardless of whether you should have read the warranty, regardless of other posters stating you want something for nothing that you are not entitled to, TIVO should have made an accomadation on their own that they did not have to.

I used to be a long term DirecTV subscriber. On the few occassions I have had problem with hardware, D* waived the fee they normally charged specifically telling me they were doing so because I had been with them for so long. They were within their right to collect the charge, but decided on their own not to. That attitude won my loyalty for years.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

curiousgeorge said:


> Actually, TiVo has lied to everyone with the Premiere, advertising it as a HD box with a HD interface, when it's only partially completed.
> 
> They also strongly misled customers by hiding the fact that if you wanted to continue to use Parental Controls available on the prior units, you had to DISABLE all the new features in the HD interface. So you bought a new box, but are forced to use the old interface or no parental controls for you.
> 
> ...


They didnt lie to me. Dont use the parental controls, never have, never will and the HDUI works fine to me. The only lie i could possibly see is saying its a better box then the HD. Other than the HDUI features IMO i do not think it is better, nor worse.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

You're only out $50? I actually would consider that a godsend. ARe you a monthly or lifetime customer on the Premiere?

LIfetime doesn't transfer in the user agreements so $50 ....well it could be alot worse. 

I would count your blessings. I'm not saying the warranty doesn't suck. 90 days is pretty horrible. But ...$50? 

Shipping a Tivo halfway across the country is a good $25 by itself. 

I hope this is their standard price for fixing problems with Premieres going forward no matter length of ownership.

btw, do you have to ship your old Tivo back at your expense besides the $50 charge?


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

RVH said:


> Interesting you should ask. I just got off the phone with Staples customer service about something I bought six months ago (not warranty related) and they corrected something they didn't have to.


And when TiVo let you do an exchange for a box for just $50 that was completely out of warranty, they also did something they didn't have to.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

rayik said:


> ...TIVO should have made an accomadation on their own that they did not have to.
> 
> I used to be a long term DirecTV subscriber. On the few occassions I have had problem with hardware, D* waived the fee they normally charged specifically telling me they were doing so because I had been with them for so long. They were within their right to collect the charge, but decided on their own not to.


TiVo DID make an accomodation on their own that they didn't have to, and they also waived the fee they 'normally charged' when they let the box be exchanged for a mere $50. The normal charge would be to pay for a whole new box.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

IIRC, exchange is free for first 90 days. From 90 days to 1 year, exchange is $50 for the box. 
After 1 year, TiVo will exchange the box (full price ?) and charge you a fee to transfer the lifetime service (if applicable).


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

steve614 said:


> IIRC, exchange is free for first 90 days. From 90 days to 1 year, exchange is $50 for the box.
> After 1 year, TiVo will exchange the box (full price ?) and charge you a fee to transfer the lifetime service (if applicable).


Well there goes my love affair. That was quick.

Lukewarm now.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I could be wrong (hence the IIRC), but that's what _used_ to happen. I haven't kept up with the TOS lately.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

dlfl said:


> Really? Can anyone supply examples of businesses that are doing that? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I can't think of any obvious examples just off hand.


My Kingston trackball had a knick in the plastic ball because someone dropped it on a concrete floor (an accident spelled out as specifically not covered by the warranty). I called to see if I could buy just the plastic ball rather than a whole new trackball unit, and they said they'd send me a whole new trackball for free (and they did too). I now have Kingston trackballs on all my computers .


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## rahnbo (Sep 12, 2010)

Without taking sides (rare for me, I know) I don't think Tivo is trying to do anything to retain customers.


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## vio2112 (Apr 18, 2011)

RVH said:


> I bought a new Tivo Premier that I put in service in December 2010 and that failed over the weekend (continuous Starting Up loop); and after a conversation with a support rep yesterday he tells me that the box is bad and they will replace it... *FOR a $50 charge*! It turns out that the Tivo box itself has but a 90-day warranty and my six months was way past that.


You're kidding right? You do realize this is the standard warranty for most electronics products these days right? I'm sure Sony has loyal users who've been using their Playstation products even longer than you've been with Tivo, but that doesn't mean Sony is going to replace their PS3 free of charge just because that person has been with them since the PS1 days. Why would Tivo be any different? They're a business and can't afford to replace every box that dies at no cost. No company can, even companies that are far more profitable than Tivo. 90 days for labor and 1 year for parts is totally reasonable. And you always had the option to purchase a 2 year or 3 year extended warranty, but you chose not to. That's your screw up, not Tivo's. Suck it up and move on.


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## Stoystown (Jun 13, 2002)

_Without taking sides (rare for me, I know) I don't think Tivo is trying to do anything to retain customers._

I agree. I have to say I did not know that the boxes had a 3-month (90 days) warranty. .

Tivo, truly, is a luxury for everyone that buys one. It's more expensive than ANY cable company DVR. It does more, and it holds more, and it's better than most cable company DVRs, but it also costs more. So it's not a "value proposition" any way you look at it. It is a luxury. And I will tell you that if I buy a luxury item, I expect a higher level of service.

Now I know (again, I did not know before) that Tivos have only a 90 day hardware warranty. To me, that is not compatible with a luxury item (especially one on which you have bought a "lifetime" service contract).

Wow - that's really short. Tivo is not making it easy to like them as a company. They charge more, I have been waiting to get HD on my Directv until their Directivo HD comes out (and "Duke Nukem Forever" is going to come out first, and now I see this example of their warrantee.

I'm not thinking highly of this.

I know it's a contract, but it's also an image the company is projecting. It's not a good image.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Stoystown said:


> _Without taking sides (rare for me, I know) I don't think Tivo is trying to do anything to retain customers._
> 
> I agree. I have to say I did not know that the boxes had a 3-month (90 days) warranty. .
> 
> ...


Yes 90 days is short BUT with the 2 or 3 year extended warranty at a low cost, if you don't ever want to replace your TiVo drive, that the way to go. I also believe loyalty is being misused as that would mean you are purchasing TiVo when better options existed for a DVR out of only loyalty, I get my scrips from a local drug store, I may pay about $1 more than going to a CVS, but they have given me great service when I needed it and I (and others ) want to keep them in business. I will admit that if my scrips cost me $1000 more a year (than a CVS) I would most likely let the store go.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

It's pretty clear stories like this one should be setting off alarm bells for Tivo. I don't know about you guys, but to me, cutting the warranty to just 90 days pretty much says "yes, we expect our products to fail VERY FAST and they are of LOW quality!"

That said, yeah, there's a technical reason why Tivo didn't do anything wrong - and sure, I'll freely admit, by the rules Tivo is fine. It's *customer goodwill *they're hemorrhaging over issues like this, though.

Defending Tivo on this is just fine - but defending Tivo's callous disregard for customer goodwill is less okay, in my opinion.

It's popular, trendy even, to see how hard forumites can bash someone for complaining about Tivo's customer service or something to do with a Tivo box. We can continue to say things like "good riddance!" and "don't let the door hit ya on the way out!" and so on and so forth - but each one of those is a customer LOST that will likely never return - especially given the reaction they get on the fora.

Tivo may not care, though - I think Rahnbo's comments are accurate. Tivo doesn't have much use for "customers" that aren't MSO's anymore.

To the OP: I'm sorry this happened to you - at least $50 is better than a whole new unit. Seriously, despite the attitudes in this thread, if you have a genuine issue with a box, there are folks on here who will not hesitate to help you out in whatever way they can.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

tomhorsley said:


> My Kingston trackball had a knick in the plastic ball because someone dropped it on a concrete floor (an accident spelled out as specifically not covered by the warranty). I called to see if I could buy just the plastic ball rather than a whole new trackball unit, and they said they'd send me a whole new trackball for free (and they did too). I now have Kingston trackballs on all my computers .


Now you need to talk them in to buying TiVo


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

TheWGP said:


> It's pretty clear stories like this one should be setting off alarm bells for Tivo. I don't know about you guys, but to me, cutting the warranty to just 90 days pretty much says "yes, we expect our products to fail VERY FAST and they are of LOW quality!"
> 
> That said, yeah, there's a technical reason why Tivo didn't do anything wrong - and sure, I'll freely admit, by the rules Tivo is fine. It's *customer goodwill *they're hemorrhaging over issues like this, though.
> 
> ...


I would agree with you but if TiVo made exceptions with the 90 days say to 6 months or a year, than why not give all its customers a 6 month or a one year warranty. If TiVo gave the people that complain a 6 month warranty (or one year warranty) and only 90 days to the people that don't complain, that would NG IMHO.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

I can certainly understand the frustration of this issue. In this day and age, a 90 day warranty for electronics is ridiculous. And a company like tivo should correct this, but sadly they won't. Pretty sad that my kitchen juicer has a 10 year warranty and it has more moving parts than a Tivo.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

RVH said:


> I have been a Tivo customer for more than ten years and have purchased four Tivo boxes all with lifetime subscriptions.


Tivo amortizes the payment for lifetime service as revenue spread across four years. After that four year point, TiVo can't claim to be generating revenue from that unit.

Any of your lifetime Tivos that are over four years old don't count. How many lifetime Tivo's have you purchased in the last four years?


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## vio2112 (Apr 18, 2011)

TheWGP said:


> It's pretty clear stories like this one should be setting off alarm bells for Tivo. I don't know about you guys, but to me, cutting the warranty to just 90 days pretty much says "yes, we expect our products to fail VERY FAST and they are of LOW quality!"


 You conveniently missed the part about this being the standard warranty for the majority of electronics products these days. From video game consoles to high def tv's, to blu-ray players to computers. You name it... So if Tivo is saying their product is "low quality" with this warranty policy, then so are countless other electronics companies. Why are you targeting Tivo? Because they're an easier target than gigantic billion dollar companies like Microsoft, Apple and Sony who have similar warranty policies? Just curious...

And please get it right, it's 90 days for LABOR, 1 YEAR FOR PARTS. If he had been outside the warranty for parts, his exchange fee would have been 150 dollars, NOT 50 dollars. All he paid for was labor, so if anything, Tivo is guaranteeing the drives and other components in their DVRs for a full year. I don't think that exactly screams "this is so low quality it will break within the first few months!"

If you wanna complain about the broken HDUI, the overpriced wireless adapters, the clunky, outdated Netflix interface, etc. that's one thing, but this warranty stuff is just absurd. Let's move on guys.


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## wp746911 (Feb 19, 2005)

vio2112 said:


> You conveniently missed the part about this being the standard warranty for the majority of electronics products these days. From video game consoles to high def tv's, to blu-ray players to computers. You name it... So if Tivo is saying their product is "low quality" with this warranty policy, then so are countless other electronics companies. Why are you targeting Tivo? Because they're an easier target than gigantic billion dollar companies like Microsoft, Apple and Sony who have similar warranty policies? Just curious...
> 
> And please get it right, it's 90 days for LABOR, 1 YEAR FOR PARTS. If he had been outside the warranty for parts, his exchange fee would have been 150 dollars, NOT 50 dollars. All he paid for was labor, so if anything, Tivo is guaranteeing the drives and other components in their DVRs for a full year. I don't think that exactly screams "this is so low quality it will break within the first few months!"
> 
> If you wanna complain about the broken HDUI, the overpriced wireless adapters, the clunky, outdated Netflix interface, etc. that's one thing, but this warranty stuff is just absurd. Let's move on guys.


How are you figuring 90 days is the standard warranty for electronics? I just checked and samsung tvs and sony ps3 and htc phone warranty is 1 year. 90 days is rather short in the electronics field. Sure we know tivo has a short warranty period (actually I'd bet most people assume its 1 year) but when it breaks after 6 months and you have to pay 50 to get it fixed its just another x-mark against tivo.

Well corrrection I just found some with 90 days labor. I still think it sucks though and i still think its a mark against tivo.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

wp746911 said:


> How are you figuring 90 days is the standard warranty for electronics? I just checked and samsung tvs and sony ps3 and htc phone warranty is 1 year. 90 days is rather short in the electronics field. Sure we know tivo has a short warranty period (actually I'd bet most people assume its 1 year) but when it breaks after 6 months and you have to pay 50 to get it fixed its just another x-mark against tivo.
> 
> Well corrrection I just found some with 90 days labor. I still think it sucks though and i still think its a mark against tivo.


Regardless, if you havnt researched it before hand when one buys a TiVo you can clearly see the warranty is 90 days. If you dont like that return it. Had the OP never had a problem he would have never complained about the warranty period. He/she is pissed because they didnt get their way or what they wanted. My guess is they were not very pleasant on the phone either and were lucky to get what they got!


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

wp746911 said:


> How are you figuring 90 days is the standard warranty for electronics? I just checked and samsung tvs and sony ps3 and htc phone warranty is 1 year. 90 days is rather short in the electronics field. Sure we know tivo has a short warranty period (actually I'd bet most people assume its 1 year) but when it breaks after 6 months and you have to pay 50 to get it fixed its just another x-mark against tivo.
> 
> Well corrrection I just found some with 90 days labor. I still think it sucks though and i still think its a mark against tivo.


Spot on - the '90 days labor' is just a money-grubbing scheme on the part of manufacturers to bill inflated labor/shipping charges. I've seen this happening on the business end of things and had to draft boilerplate to protect a company that pretty much said flat out "we want to screw the customer over - they'll probably never buy from us again anyway, so just make sure we can't get sued over it." Yeah, that was a weiiiiird situation... and I made a note never to purchase from that company if I ever needed their niche product.

The point really isn't how long your warranty is - it's how you stand behind it and how customers see it, whether that's by the letter of the warranty language or not. There are some TV companies that allow you to return for a warranty claim - but they make you pack and ship your TV at your expense, take months to fix it, and then charge you for return shipping. That's all fine and dandy - but review websites consistently mention "lackluster warranty support" and customers say things like "hope you never have to use the warranty because it's a PAIN!"

Penny-pinching people who you want repeat or word-of-mouth business/sales from is never a good idea, no matter what your business and no matter what the "legal facts" are. That's all. It's less a "Tivo should do x, y, or z" and more "Tivo is making business decisions that are shooting itself in the foot."

Of course, as has been noted, Tivo does not CARE if it shoots itself in the foot.... if it's already paralyzed in a wheelchair pushed by MSO's!


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

RVH said:


> I hope someone from Tivo management is paying attention...


Doubtful.

Were you paying monthly on this box or did you have Lifetime. True the warranty period is ridiculously short, as if TiVo doesn't trust their own hardware, but a $50 replacement sounds reasonable.


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

Stoystown said:


> Now I know (again, I did not know before) that Tivos have only a 90 day hardware warranty. To me, that is not compatible with a luxury item (especially one on which you have bought a "lifetime" service contract).


Stop expecting things based on price and perform a proper due diligence before you make *any* purchase. If you don't know that it comes with a 90 day warranty that's a failure on your part. Don't shift the blame. 

If the 90 day warranty isn't sufficient get an extended warranty or don't make the purchase. If it's a luxury then you don't have to have it, right? Your impulsive decision making isn't Tivo's fault either.



RVH said:


> I hope someone from Tivo management is paying attention...


...and if you're not happy with the company then write the company directly. Don't assume that they read forums no matter which company it is.



scandia101 said:


> Looks like somebody feels entitled for no good reason.


Earlier in the thread was a discussion regarding the definition of "loyal". This is really what people mean when they start off by saying how loyal they are. It's that they feel entitled. Loyalty to any corporation is misplaced in my book. I guess YMMV but don't expect a reciprocal relationship unless you've had such prior experience with the company.

That is, unless you're into disappointment like this.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DeWitt said:


> I have no extended warranty. They said it was standard policy now, but you get just the guts of the phone (Probably a refurb). No new battery, accessories etc. (One button on mine was not working)
> 
> Have talked to three or 4 people since who where happily surprised by my experience and got the same deal.


If that is their policy now, then it makes no sense to have an extended warranty. Since with the extended warranty you still have to pay $50 and you get a refurbished unit. The extended warranties bring in an extra $3 to $8 a month for them.
I'll have to check into it to see if this has changed in my area. If it has I will be dropping my extended warranty.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Stoystown said:


> _Without taking sides (rare for me, I know) I don't think Tivo is trying to do anything to retain customers._
> 
> I agree. I have to say I did not know that the boxes had a 3-month (90 days) warranty. .
> 
> ...


But that's just it. It isn't more expensive than a cable company DVR. It's cheaper. And the longer you keep the TiVo the cheaper it gets. The break even point is only 2.5 to 3.5 years. While with the cable comapnay DVRs you will pay monthly fees for them indefinitely.
I've been with FiOS close to four years now. If I had DVRs from them, I would have paid more to FiOS by now than I've paid to TiVo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TheWGP said:


> It's pretty clear stories like this one should be setting off alarm bells for Tivo. I don't know about you guys, but to me, cutting the warranty to just 90 days pretty much says "yes, we expect our products to fail VERY FAST and they are of LOW quality!"
> 
> To the OP: I'm sorry this happened to you - at least $50 is better than a whole new unit. Seriously, despite the attitudes in this thread, if you have a genuine issue with a box, there are folks on here who will not hesitate to help you out in whatever way they can.


umm, the warranty has not been changed in years. This 90 days free and up to 1 year 50$ replacement has been around a while. You next make a leap of short warranty means low quality. Hardware issues on TiVo DVRs is extremely low and are usually traced to bad runs of hard drives or the like.

Also, yes, the very folks who are telling the OP he really does not have much of rant would have happily helped him if he had come here first and pointed him in the right direction. Frankly with all those years of running his own tech company i am surprised he did not already swap the drive for a larger one,


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

TiVo's warranty is somewhat of an interesting topic. 

First I will agree with those who are basically saying it is what it is don't expect anything else, if the 90 day full and 1 year partial warranty is unacceptable don't buy a TiVo or add the cost of an extended warranty into your decision to buy or not buy a TiVo. 

From a marketing point of view I would think having the full warranty be the same as the commitment period would make it easier to sell to new costumers. On the other hand the $50 we have to pay from 90 days to 1 year really is just a shipping and handling charge. 

What happens after 1 year (at least what has happened in the past) is where TiVo has in my mind stepped up. Their unofficial policy after 1 year has been to offer replacement units for $150 including moving lifetime to the replacement unit at no cost. If they continue this policy I would say I think their over all warranty/replacement policy is very pro-consumer. 

Thanks,


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

curiousgeorge said:


> Actually, TiVo has lied to everyone with the Premiere, advertising it as a HD box with a HD interface, when it's only partially completed.
> 
> They also strongly misled customers by hiding the fact that if you wanted to continue to use Parental Controls available on the prior units, you had to DISABLE all the new features in the HD interface. So you bought a new box, but are forced to use the old interface or no parental controls for you.
> 
> ...


You make good points but the Tivo fanbois here just dont see it. Tivo can do no wrong here. I dont know why the Tivo people left. This is the biggest love-fest for a company with piss poor service theyre going to find.


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## RVH (Dec 19, 2006)

It irks me to no end to see (most of) you having fun at my expense. I think they should rename this forum TDF - Tivo Defense Forum as you guys act more like paid Tivo hacks than sympathetic users. The purpose of this forum is for us to exchange facts, stories and experiences. That's all I did. I didn't ask any of you to flame me. I'm entitled to my opinion and you are free to disagree - but, please do so with respect. (Joe from Wakefield, you, especially need to get some sensitivity training.)

I stick by my guns that 90-days is way too short given that the main component has at least a 2-yr warranty, and that 10-yrs and $2,000 spent demonstrates loyalty.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

KungFuCow said:


> You make good points but the Tivo fanbois here just dont see it. Tivo can do no wrong here. I dont know why the Tivo people left. This is the biggest love-fest for a company with piss poor service theyre going to find.





RVH said:


> It irks me to no end to see (most of) you having fun at my expense. I think they should rename this forum TDF - Tivo Defense Forum as you guys act more like paid Tivo hacks than sympathetic users.


Wait - are we talking about the same forum? TCF, right? The number of posts *****ing about TiVo far outnumber the posts praising them.



RVH said:


> I stick by my guns that 90-days is way too short given that the main component has at least a 2-yr warranty, and that 10-yrs and $2,000 spent demonstrates loyalty.


And unless you plan on continuing purchasing TiVo hardware/services, you'll continue to use the word loyal(ty) incorrectly.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

RVH said:


> It irks me to no end to see (most of) you having fun at my expense. I think they should rename this forum TDF - Tivo Defense Forum as you guys act more like paid Tivo hacks than sympathetic users. The purpose of this forum is for us to exchange facts, stories and experiences. That's all I did. I didn't ask any of you to flame me. I'm entitled to my opinion and you are free to disagree - but, please do so with respect. (Joe from Wakefield, you, especially need to get some sensitivity training.)
> 
> I stick by my guns that 90-days is way too short given that the main component has at least a 2-yr warranty, and that 10-yrs and $2,000 spent demonstrates loyalty.


I assume the main component you're referring to is the hard drive (in reality it's the mainboard). Fact is, when a hard drive is used in a DVR or other device built by an OEM manufacturer, said manufacturer assumes the warranty on the drive and can make the warranty period whatever they choose. It's the main reasoin why I always replace the original drive with an upgrade as soon as I get the Tivo. That way I get the full warranty on the drive I install instead of the meager guarantee that Tivo offers. I think we can all agree that the Tivo warranty is a joke, which is why I have absolutely no problem voiding it.

You got flamed because you started off by dousing yourself in gasoline. Tivo's warranty is clear and concise so *****ing about Tivo not covering your box out of warranty is completely ludicrous. The fact is, a $50 exchange for an out of warranty item is generally above and beyond what most manufacturers of consumer electronic devices would offer. Try taking a broken camcorder back to Sony after the warranty is over and see what they'll do for you. They'll charge you over $100 just to look at it and then charge you for parts and labor to fix it. You're usually better off buying a new unit.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

RVH said:


> It irks me to no end to see (most of) you having fun at my expense. I think they should rename this forum TDF - Tivo Defense Forum as you guys act more like paid Tivo hacks than sympathetic users. The purpose of this forum is for us to exchange facts, stories and experiences. That's all I did. I didn't ask any of you to flame me. I'm entitled to my opinion and you are free to disagree - but, please do so with respect. (Joe from Wakefield, you, especially need to get some sensitivity training.)
> 
> I stick by my guns that 90-days is way too short given that the main component has at least a 2-yr warranty, and that 10-yrs and $2,000 spent demonstrates loyalty.


First, it stinks when anything fails. It means extra work and extra costs, whether DVR, your car, an appliance, anything. So, having experienced failure of any number of things, I feel your pain.

However, you have been a member since 2006. You can cry foul all you want, but I would assume that you would have seen a post or two here and would have expected this response.

If you felt at risk for 90 days, it was up to you to do something before you had a problem (and I expect you understand a higher unit price would accompany a longer warranty). Next- did you use a credit card- they often include extended warranty protection? In addition, you failed to come here sooner where advice could have been provided (you have been a member for ~5 years). Finally, many of us who have dealt with CSRs, not just TiVo CSRs, know that the first answer is not always the best. It appears that you failed to use reasonable negotiating skills to either try another CSR or to attempt to escalate to a supervisor to shop for a better answer.


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

I'd agree with the OP - 90 days is far to short of a time period. That being said, it's pretty detailed on their screen what the terms and conditions are:


> 90 days free labor | Free parts for the length of your initial commitment
> 
> Offers 90-day coverage of labor starting from the box purchase date
> Offers free parts for the length of your initial commitment starting from the date of purchase
> ...


You didn't say, so I'm assuming that you also had to pay for shipping at least one way as well; and that it wasn't covered in the $50.

Extended warranties are like an optional insurance for your hardware... If you want you can purchase it and it may be for nothing.. Otherwise you can take the chance and see if you make out on the deal. (ie. no problems)

You were twice the length of time out of their 90 days free labor period, no where in the above does it state anything about free shipping for early failed units. If it made any difference to the costs to you, I would have asked if you could have perhaps get one of the extended warranties at that time, if the initial rep says no, ask to speak to their manager and plead your case.

I've had some positive examples of good support lately - which makes me want to use these companies in the future.
1 - Purchased Sears Washer and Drier. about 14 months after the initial purchase date the drier fails. I look in the back and realize that they did not install the vent properly and for the past year it has been partially blowing lint inside of the drier's cavity. I was out of my 1 year warranty, but the service tech who came out to review it, identified the issue and did write it up as service that was going to be done at their cost; because it was their mistake. (they could have said.. well I'm sorry sir, you're just out of luck - and I would have been out $129 or so)

Result... Sears will take care of their customers; I'll most likely look to go to them for future large purchases.

2 - Newegg - Accidentally purchased the wrong external hard drive enclosure. (2.5" instead of a 3.5") I called up and talked with a CS rep there, and explained my issue, and asked if I could do a return, and perhaps get a mailing label to send it back the purchase the correct one. I could have easily been out shipping costs, as well as a restocking fee. Instead the rep told me to just keep the accidental purchased drive, he will give me a store credit for the value.

Result... will continue to use Newegg for future purchases. Sure it was only$15 or so, but purchasing from them for over 10 years and having them just give me that unit, felt as if they cared.

Now... I don't see any posts here... but what were the alternatives to the $50. All in all, that may not be a bad deal. I had an issue with my PS3 and I had to send it in to get worked on, and it cost me like $75... pissed me off totally, but the alternative -- getting a new one, sucked a hell of a lot more!!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Tivo isn't going to just replace the defective part. Tivo is going to send an entirely different refurbished tivo. It seems easier to just keep a second tivo in the attic for parts. At a minimum you know you're going to have to replace the hard drive eventually. Even if Tivo waived the $50, it's still a pain to return the broken dvr and and wait for the refurbished unit to arrive. Might as well just have the parts on hand and swap them out yourself.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

RVH said:


> It irks me to no end to see (most of) you having fun at my expense. I think they should rename this forum TDF - Tivo Defense Forum as you guys act more like paid Tivo hacks than sympathetic users. The purpose of this forum is for us to exchange facts, stories and experiences. That's all I did. I didn't ask any of you to flame me. I'm entitled to my opinion and you are free to disagree - but, please do so with respect. (Joe from Wakefield, you, especially need to get some sensitivity training.)
> 
> I stick by my guns that 90-days is way too short given that the main component has at least a 2-yr warranty, and that 10-yrs and $2,000 spent demonstrates loyalty.


Joe from wakefield told you the way it is, i didnt flame you at all. If the 90 day warranty was to short why wernt you on here years ago complaining about it. Because it didnt effect you is why. You think because you have been a long time customer your entitiled to something others are not. Your wrong, you dont have to like it, I'm sure you cant except it but it doesnt change anything, your still wrong. 
When you bought your Premiere you saw it had a 90 day warranty and what those conditions were. *YOU* then made the choice to keep it. *YOU* claim to be in the tech business, _if thats true_ you know electonics fail and defects happen, your just pissed off because it happened to you and you think your special and TiVo owes you something. They owe you nothing, you knew what the deal was going in and if you didnt it it because you were negligent in reading or comprehending the warranty terms of what you purchased. By keeping the TiVo after the intital purchase you are acknowledging your underatand the policies. My advice would be next time get the extended warranty if that $50 bucks hurts so bad but it would have cost you more than the 50 bucks so get over yourself. Go pat yourself on the back telling yourself you got over on TiVo by them giving you a replacment for $50, I'm sure you will feel better.
Yes, i understand, thats not your point. You have been with TiVo a long long time (so have a lot of others) and they owe you something. Let me know how that works out for ya


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## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

I have to side with BVH the OP. I agree a lot of companies do not stand by their loyal customers, but based on the circumstances, 6 month old box they should have given him the replacement for free.

One example i can use, is Weber , the grill company. On numerous occasions they have sent me replacement parts for my grills even though they were out of warranty. I don't think they treat me any different than any other customer. Because of this customer service I will only and have only bought Weber grill products. I have examples of other companies that have done similar things. Now if Tivo was a little less rigid, I would have bought a premiere instead of a Moxi when I needed a DVR for the den.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

ciucca said:


> I have to side with BVH the OP. I agree a lot of companies do not stand by their loyal customers, but based on the circumstances, 6 month old box they should have given him the replacement for free.


I would agree with that if it were in writing from TiVo that if you have been a customer for XX long you will get this and if you have been a customer for XXX long you will get that. But no such contracts are in place that i know of, so to be fair TiVo should hold true to its written word. It looks as if TiVo went above what was needed for the OP by giving him a replacement for $50. I hope thats in writing someplace where they will do that. If my Premiere craps the bed almost 9 months out I want the same deal!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

KungFuCow said:


> You make good points but the Tivo fanbois here just dont see it. Tivo can do no wrong here. I dont know why the Tivo people left. This is the biggest love-fest for a company with piss poor service theyre going to find.


orange boys comments that echoed the OP about the software quality of the TiVo premiere is actually a separate issue from the actual complaint. Since I dd not in large part disagree with those complaints I chose to focus on the warranty aspect in which the OP was simply expecting more than the terms state and seemed upset about the terms anyhow since he did not really know the terms when he purchased.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RVH said:


> It irks me to no end to see (most of) you having fun at my expense. I think they should rename this forum TDF - Tivo Defense Forum as you guys act more like paid Tivo hacks than sympathetic users. The purpose of this forum is for us to exchange facts, stories and experiences. That's all I did. I didn't ask any of you to flame me. I'm entitled to my opinion and you are free to disagree - but, please do so with respect. (Joe from Wakefield, you, especially need to get some sensitivity training.)
> 
> I stick by my guns that 90-days is way too short given that the main component has at least a 2-yr warranty, and that 10-yrs and $2,000 spent demonstrates loyalty.


ok, 90 days is too short. So TiVo could extend the warranty to 1 year. Guess what? TiVo will sell very few more units due to that. TiVo inc. made the decision to change things and charge the 50$ after 90 days to cover the warranty processing work. You are entitled to not like it and indeed to not buy TiVo anymore.

however, the fact is that TiVo clearly states the terms and at 6 months the terms state you pay 50$, thus your claim that at 6 months they should waive the fee can only be made on the basis you are special because you have spent 2,000$ over 10 years. OK, sorry if others on the forum do not agree that you are special.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

TiVo earned my loyalty when they transferred my lifetime sub from an ineligible S1 to a TiVoHD for free as a "one-time favor" when they didn't have to.

True I was polite during the whole phone call and showed extra gratitude after they made this offer to me. So I still like them.


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

delete


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

timckelley said:


> TiVo earned my loyalty


I am a TiVo customer! I hold no loyalty to TiVo what so ever. TiVo has done nothing, ZERO for me to be loyal to them. They are not giving me anything for free here. They are not doing me any favors, we are not buddies, we dont hang out, TiVo hasnt had me over for dinner. *I pay *TiVo for the service and i expect them to deliver it. I expect them to hold true to their word that they will proved it and to date they have. I also paid for the harware and I expect them to honor any warranties that came with the hardware i bought for the time periods stated. I am a TiVo customer because i like the product they offer and the service they provide and that is where my relationship with TiVo ends. If they want to give me FREE service for life because I'm special I'll take it but IF someone, in my eyes, comes up with something way better then TiVo I will quietly cancel my services and move on. TiVo owes me nothing and i pay them (yearly) so i own them nothing until service renewal time rolls around.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

I as a customer am loyal to State Farm, because I've had the same agent for 27 years, and my parents before me were also customer of State Farm. It's quite possible I could get a better deal elsewhere, yet I continue to remain a State Farm customer.


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## rgbrooks (Jun 2, 2011)

Joe01880 said:


> They didnt lie to me. Dont use the parental controls, never have, never will and the HDUI works fine to me. The only lie i could possibly see is saying its a better box then the HD. Other than the HDUI features IMO i do not think it is better, nor worse.


You must not be OTA.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

sac84371 said:


> And it always seems to be the same 15 or 20 folks that can't wait to attack you personally.


Most of the people are not attacking you or anyone else. They are merely pointing out the reality of the situation.
And it always seems to be those "same 15 or 20 folks" because it is. They'll correct anyone and everyone who is flat out wrong, not just you so don't take it personally.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

timckelley said:


> I as a customer am loyal to State Farm, because I've had the same agent for 27 years, and my parents before me were also customer of State Farm. It's quite possible I could get a better deal elsewhere, yet I continue to remain a State Farm customer.


And that is an example of using the term loyal(ty) correctly. :up:


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

timckelley said:


> I as a customer am loyal to State Farm, because I've had the same agent for 27 years, and my parents before me were also customer of State Farm. It's quite possible I could get a better deal elsewhere, yet I continue to remain a State Farm customer.





orangeboy said:


> And that is an example of using the term loyal(ty) correctly. :up:


Yes! I'm also a long term customer of State Farm. I assume I will get service on claims that will be superior to other possibly cheaper companies but in fact I don't know that and part of the reason I don't shop around is I just don't want to bother doing that -- i.e., laziness. If I was assured I could get the same service, equivalent policy, and a lower price, I would switch -- so I don't consider myself loyal to State Farm (just lazy ).


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

steve614 said:


> Most of the people are not attacking you or anyone else. They are merely pointing out the reality of the situation.
> And it always seems to be those "same 15 or 20 folks" because it is. They'll correct anyone and everyone who is flat out wrong, not just you so don't take it personally.


Yes, and in addition to the "flat out wrong" (i.e., wrong on facts and/or logic) issue, people respond negatively to the "whining" attitude, i.e., the "It didn't go my way so someone else must be evil" posts. That response to disappointment is characteristic of children.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

RVH said:


> Trust them to do the right thing for a long term, loyal customer.


They did the right thing. They clearly spelled out the terms of the agrement and their obligations as well as yours under that agreement. The agreement is reasonable, even generous compared with other industry players.



RVH said:


> That's what I meant. Yes, I understand they did everything according to the letter of their contract. So, kudos for them.


And it is a reasonable and supportive contract.



RVH said:


> I am in business for myself and I pride myself for having long term, loyal customers. That means sometimes I have to go above and beyond for them. Sounds like you guys are not in that camp.


They did go above and beyond, and they do it for every single customer. So you think some of your custromers deserve poor treatment, despite their paying precisely the same for their service? That's not ethical. Or are you claiming to have paid additional monies for upgraded service? Being an early adopter implies paying a premium, but does not imply entitlement to better service. It only entitles one to being an early adopter.



RVH said:


> If this failed eighteen months after, I wouldn't have a problem, but after less than six months, I consider that extenuating circumstances. In that situation, then $50 would be extremely generous.


That's just nonsense. Things fail. Some things fail after 6 weeks, others after 6 months, others 6 years, and some last more than 6 decades. After estimating the failure rate, any company must balance how much they charge up-front for a device with how long they will cover it under warranty. Having weighed these factors, they must set their pricing structure and their warranty plans. Once done, and once communicted to the customer in a reasonable fashion, the customer has no call to complain if they happen to be one of the unlucky ones. There is absolutely no reason TiVo should charge $50 to every other customer whose device fails after 91 days, but waive that fee just for you. If you considered the 90 day warranty to be ridiculous, then you should never have purchased the device.



RVH said:


> Orangeboy - "loyal" is being used correctly. If ten years and four lifetime purchases doesn't count as loyal, then we are speaking a different language.


No, it isn't. "Loyal" implies either purchasing from the business in spite of lower prices ro be had from the competition or else a conntinuous extended outlay. If you had an extended monthly contract with TiVo or an agreement to buy x DVRs over the next ten years, then the term "loyal" might apply. As it is, you purchased lifetime service in the expectation it would be less expensive over the life of the product. That's the opposite of loyalty. It's not evil or unethical, but it's not loyalty.



RVH said:


> I've been in high tech for twenty five years and have been buying PCs, printers, routers, etc for at least that long. The number of devices that actually fail is very small; and if they do fail they do so quite quickly.


First of all, how quicly something fails on average depends on a number of factors, many of them environmental. A laptop is a lot more likely to fail than a desktop. Secondly, failures will occur throughout the life of any product line. It's true that unless agressive QC and burn-in procedures are implemented, infant failure rates are higher than medium term failures, but medium term failures do happen. One happened to you. That's tough, but it happens. It's not the manufactuer's fault, unless they have an unreasonable number of such failures.



RVH said:


> That's why I routinely don't buy extended warranties.


That's a specious reason not to purchase extended warranties. Specious or not, however, you decided to take a chance, and lost.

Actually, you didn't lose. Your savings for not buying all those warranties I'm sure far exceeds the $50 you had to spend for this one item. You have no cause to complain. Or are you going to now go back and pay all the manufactueres the money you saved, just because this one item didn't pan out?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dlfl said:


> Yes, and in addition to the "flat out wrong" (i.e., wrong on facts and/or logic) issue, people respond negatively to the "whining" attitude, i.e., the "It didn't go my way so someone else must be evil" posts. That response to disappointment is characteristic of children.


No, actually, it is characteristic of spoiled brats. Well behaved and well mannered children do not act that way.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

PaperFriend said:


> When you don't purchase the extended warranty then the cost falls on you. Your story gives a good reason why to purchase their extended warranty.


No, it isn't. Companies offer extended warranties for one and only one reason: they make money on them. How can they do this? The answer is, "Averaged over a large number of units, it costs them less to pay off on claims than they receive from the extended warranties." By exactly the same token, many large companies (like the one for which I work) do not purchase any insurance. They self insure. Averaged over the cost of many claims, it is cheaper not to have insurance. Where insurance pays off for the insured is when the customer makes too few investments, and the cost of a single failed investment may be too high to average out over the total of purchases.

Thus, a person who buys very small amounts of electronics may be well served to purchase extended warranties on the handful of items he purchases. The cumultive cost for all the extended warranties is not that high, and the loss of even a single piece of equipment can exceed the investment in warranties. For a person like me, however, purchasing extended warranties would mean buying many dozens of them, and the loss of one or two items prematurely is more than offset by the savings of not buying all the warranties. In short, if one buys a significant amount of electronics, one will occasionally incur the cost of a failed unit here and there, but in the long run, it's cheaper not to buy the warranties.

Having saved all that money by not buying extended warranties, I would have to be arrogant indeed to whine about one or two units for which the odds beat me. It would be doubly arrogant to try to blame the company who manutfactured the failed unit for spoiling my average a bit.



PaperFriend said:


> It is inexpensive and you found out the hard way.


It's ony inexpensive if one does not buy much in the way of electronics.



PaperFriend said:


> TIVO did nothing wrong.


Indeed they did not. 'Not wrong, not unethical, not sleazy, and not poorly considered.



PaperFriend said:


> I know the warranty period for every piece of electronics I buy. If I chose not to get an extended warranty then I take that risk for myself and only hold myself accountable.


Correct. Bad luck is not someone else's fault, ever.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Joe01880 said:


> I am a TiVo customer! I hold no loyalty to TiVo what so ever. TiVo has done nothing, ZERO for me to be loyal to them. They are not giving me anything for free here. They are not doing my any favors, we are not buddies, we dont hang out, TiVo hasnt had me over for dinner or anything.


More to the point, the length of time you have been a customer of TiVo implies very little about any level of loyalty to them. It merely implies the customer is satisfied with the value of the products they have purchased realtive to the purchase price. Someone could be a TiVo owner for 50 years (once they have been in business that long), and purchased several dozen of their products, yet the moment some other manufactuer produces a better or equivalent product for the same cost or less, the buyer may switch in a figurative heartbeat. It doesn't mean they didn't remain customers for 50 years.


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## vio2112 (Apr 18, 2011)

takeshi said:


> Earlier in the thread was a discussion regarding the definition of "loyal". This is really what people mean when they start off by saying how loyal they are. It's that they feel entitled. Loyalty to any corporation is misplaced in my book. I guess YMMV but don't expect a reciprocal relationship unless you've had such prior experience with the company.
> 
> That is, unless you're into disappointment like this.


:up: Well said. This "loyalty" argument roughly translates to "I'm entitled to policy breaking deals and concessions because I've been using Tivo's for years." while apparently people who purchased their first Tivo this year are apparently entitled to nothing. The OP constantly refers to his lifetime service contracts as a reason for his entitlement. Hate to break it to ya RVH, but your lifetime service is a privilege, not a right. How many other companies offer one time lifetime service fees for their products and services? I can't get lifetime service for my cable service, my internet service or my Netflix subscription(among other things). And fact is, Tivo LOSES money on most lifetime subs. As another poster already mentioned, after roughly 4 years, Tivo is no longer generating any sort of profit for your "loyal service." You're the one banking it at that point. True LOYAL customers are those who have paid monthly fees for years and years. They're the ones who should have their broken DVRs replaced free of charge.

And finally, this expecting special treatment from a corporation line of thinking just boggles my mind. This isn't the mom and pop shop down the street. In fact, the CS reps you have spoken to on your phone aren't even Tivo employees. They merely 'represent' the company. You'll never ever have any contact with the real Tivo employees in Alviso, California(where tivo's corporate headquarters are). Need I say more?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

vio2112 said:


> You'll never ever have any contact with the real Tivo employees in Alviso, California(where tivo's corporate headquarters are). Need I say more?


Well, that's not true. Indeed, some of them participate in this very forum.


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## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

What I've learned from the majority of the posts in this thread is that TIVO need not do anything beyond the written letter of their warranty. Further, one should not expect anything beyond that written letter if one is a long time customer. If one expects a "loyalty reward" then that individual is someone who wants something for nothing when they are not entitled to it.

As a practical matter, companies make accommodations to official policies when they believe it will help support their business (such as in obtaining future business). The OP was disappointed TIVO did not make such an accommodation. The OP does not need to be told TIVO did not have to make any accomodations. He already knows that. 

None of the responses address whether it makes good business sense for TIVO to have any kind of "unofficial policy" to accommodate long term users. I know DirecTV does have such an "unofficial policy." They have a star rating for their customers based upon years of service, amount of service paid for. Customers with higher star ratings obtain more accomodations as a reward for their business. TIVO should probably have some kind of system like that if it would help in retaining and attracting more customers.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

rayik said:


> None of the responses address whether it makes good business sense for TIVO to have any kind of "unofficial policy" to accommodate long term users. I know DirecTV does have such an "unofficial policy." They have a star rating for their customers based upon years of service, amount of service paid for. Customers with higher star ratings obtain more accomodations as a reward for their business. TIVO should probably have some kind of system like that if it would help in retaining and attracting more customers.


The main point here, though, is those long term customers of DirecTV have been paying DirecTV, every month, year after year after year, in order to obtain their service, and presumably will continue to do so as long as they are happy (enough) with DirecTV. The OP, on the other hand, is paying TiVo nothing whatsoever. He bought each of his TiVos, paid for lifetime service, and TiVo may never get another dime from him, evenif he continues to use his TiVos into the next century. Yet he somehow expects this to mean TiVo owes him special treatment, over and above that of individuals who continue to pay $12.95 or even $19.95 a month. The only advantage for TiVo here is a chance that maybe, if they make him happy by making an exception for him, he might possibly at some future date buy another TiVo. Why they should do this just for him, rather than changing their policy for everyone in his shoes is beyond me. As to changing their policy for everyone, that only makes sense if it will produce more customers for them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

rayik said:


> I know DirecTV does have such an "unofficial policy." They have a star rating for their customers based upon years of service, amount of service paid for. Customers with higher star ratings obtain more accomodations


TiVo still could have this unofficial policy and likely someone on monthly sub might have gotten more accommodation then the lifetime sub the OP had


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

rayik said:


> What I've learned from the majority of the posts in this thread is that TIVO need not do anything beyond the written letter of their warranty. Further, one should not expect anything beyond that written letter if one is a long time customer. If one expects a "loyalty reward" then that individual is someone who wants something for nothing when they are not entitled to it.
> 
> As a practical matter, companies make accommodations to official policies when they believe it will help support their business (such as in obtaining future business). The OP was disappointed TIVO did not make such an accommodation. The OP does not need to be told TIVO did not have to make any accomodations. He already knows that.
> 
> None of the responses address whether it makes good business sense for TIVO to have any kind of "unofficial policy" to accommodate long term users. I know DirecTV does have such an "unofficial policy." They have a star rating for their customers based upon years of service, amount of service paid for. Customers with higher star ratings obtain more accomodations as a reward for their business. TIVO should probably have some kind of system like that if it would help in retaining and attracting more customers.


I find little to quibble about in this moderate reasonable summary, recognizing that the final sentence is your opinion and others may differ (including TiVo who have to make the actual decision and are in the best position to know all the factors involved). However it seems like you have toned down your position from your earlier post:


rayik said:


> I agree with you. Regardless of the 90 day warranty period expiring, regardless of whether you read the warranty, regardless of whether you should have read the warranty, regardless of other posters stating you want something for nothing that you are not entitled to, TIVO should have made an accomadation on their own that they did not have to.


Now you're saying "probably" and "if" instead of "should have". Which is your true opinion?


rayik said:


> I used to be a long term DirecTV subscriber. On the few occassions I have had problem with hardware, D* waived the fee they normally charged specifically telling me they were doing so because I had been with them for so long. They were within their right to collect the charge, but decided on their own not to. That attitude won my loyalty for years.


They "won my loyalty for years" but "I used to be a long term DirecTV subscriber"  This just seems to illustrate how "loyalty" is misused. If you were really loyal you would still be a DirecTV subscriber, woudn't you?


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ok, 90 days is too short. So TiVo could extend the warranty to 1 year. Guess what? TiVo will sell very few more units due to that.


I disagree. This thread is a good example of why. In reading this I'm discouraged from buying a new Tivo. The OP will probably never buy another Tivo again. A 1 year warranty means customers will tend to be more loyal. The length of the warranty may not affect sales to virgin customers who are completely new to the product. However, the shorter warranty means those customers will feel ripped off when the unit fails after a few months and will not be repeat customers and will discourage others from buying it.

A 90 day warranty tells me that Tivo does not think their unit will last. Ninety days is nothing. Most electronics come with a year or at least 6 month warranty. The only time I see 90 day warranties is on refurbished stuff where the price is reduced to reflect that.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

warrenn said:


> I disagree. This thread is a good example of why. In reading this I'm discouraged from buying a new Tivo. The OP will probably never buy another Tivo again. A 1 year warranty means customers will tend to be more loyal. The length of the warranty may not affect sales to virgin customers who are completely new to the product. However, the shorter warranty means those customers will feel ripped off when the unit fails after a few months and will not be repeat customers and will discourage others from buying it.
> 
> A 90 day warranty tells me that Tivo does not think their unit will last. Ninety days is nothing. Most electronics come with a year or at least 6 month warranty. The only time I see 90 day warranties is on refurbished stuff where the price is reduced to reflect that.


As has already been pointed out, a 1 year warranty would require an increase in the unit price. I assume TiVo has done the market analysis and concluded they would sell fewer units and this would reduce their overall profit. Such analyses should take into account customer retention factors, of course. They are certainly in a better position to do this analysis than you are, I would think. And they could be wrong -- happens all the time.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

dlfl said:


> As has already been pointed out, a 1 year warranty would require an increase in the unit price. I assume TiVo has done the market analysis and concluded they would sell fewer units and this would reduce their overall profit. Such analyses should take into account customer retention factors, of course. They are certainly in a better position to do this analysis than you are, I would think. And they could be wrong -- happens all the time.


You are exactly right. Tivo has determined that it is too costly to have a 1 year warranty. That tells me their unit is crap. That means they expect to have so many failures in the first year that it would be too costly to cover them. That type of thinking is short-sighted.

Generally, electronics have a long lifespan. I have many electronics which work for 5 years or longer without a single hiccup. So if I see an electronic device with a very short warranty, it implies that the company believes the device will probably fail quickly and they don't want to cover the cost of replacement.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

warrenn said:


> That means they expect to have so many failures in the first year that it would be too costly to cover them.


Ironic for a device that typically works for 5 years or more when polls are done


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I think there is a reason completely unrelated to quality or failure rate that explains TiVo's warranty policy. If you read this forum much you see it is replete with war stories where people have problems caused by CableCARD(s) and Tuning Adapters not functioning properly, frequently because the cable co isn't sending the proper signals to them. A typical pattern is the cable co makes some attempts (frequently pathetic) to make things work and then the user calls TiVo. TiVo support has little leverage with cable cos and has a hard time diagnosing the problems themselves. So about all they can do in many cases is offer a replacment TiVo (or stiff the customer, which they don't do). In some cases users have replaced TiVos more than once without resolving the problem. This comprises a huge expense for TiVo that really shouldn't be their problem. The $50 charge after 90 days gives customers an incentive to stick it out working with their cable co to get the problem resolved rather than just swapping TiVo's. I don't blame TiVo for doing this.

When I first got my TiVo HD, I was using it on analog cable channels because my digital cable service had not yet been turned on. I noticed audio noise on old TCM movies that was much worse than it had been when tuned with my previous S2DT TiVo. So I returned the box immediately for a replacement -- which exhibited the exact same behavior! It apparently was some kind of interaction between the cable signal and the HD's analog tuner, and it isn't present on digital versions of TCM. I give this an an example of how the complexities of cable TV interacting with a DVR (not to mention CableCARD(s) and tuning adapters) can result in situations that are practically impossible to diagnose, and TiVo ends up eating the cost of a replacement box because there isn't anything else to try.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

warrenn said:


> A 90 day warranty tells me that Tivo does not think their unit will last. Ninety days is nothing. Most electronics come with a year or at least 6 month warranty. The only time I see 90 day warranties is on refurbished stuff where the price is reduced to reflect that.


The No. 1 high failure item in a Tivo is the hard drive. As I stated in an earlier post, any OEM manufacturer that uses a hard drive in their product assumes all responsibility and warranty coverage for the drive. Try and contact the manufacturer of the drive in your Tivo and look up the serial number on their website and chances are it will state that it's not covered by them but rather the OEM that installed it.

Hard drives can last more than five years or less than five minutes. Your hard drive is dying from the minute you first spin it up. Some just take longer to die than others. You can't blame Tivo for not wanting to provide warranty coverage for something they don't build themselves.

If you don't like Tivo's warranty, don't buy a Tivo. If you bought the Tivo then you've got no room to complain about their warranty coverage. Caveat emptor!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

warrenn said:


> You are exactly right. Tivo has determined that it is too costly to have a 1 year warranty. That tells me their unit is crap. That means they expect to have so many failures in the first year that it would be too costly to cover them. That type of thinking is short-sighted.
> 
> Generally, electronics have a long lifespan. I have many electronics which work for 5 years or longer without a single hiccup. So if I see an electronic device with a very short warranty, it implies that the company believes the device will probably fail quickly and they don't want to cover the cost of replacement.


I have five launch Premieres and my hardware is still fine. Out of the 24+ TiVos I've owned over almost ten years the only issue I've ever had with the hardware was a couple of fans that started making some noise. So I replaced the fans which only cost a few dollars..
The current TiVo Premieres I own so far seem just as reliable as any TiVo I've owned. Now if I start having issue then I will deal with it then. And if something better comes along I will think about switching to that device. But so far TiVo is still getting my money since They are the best DVR for my use.

Now one reason I've never had issues with my TiVos might be from the use of a UPS. I've always used a UPS with them so perhaps that has helped with their longevity.

I did buy the exended warranty on all my Premieres since the cost was minimal, but I've also upgraded the hard drive in two of them so the extended warranty is probably no good for those any more.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

The problem with short warranties is that it goes against Tivo's marketing message.

*Q: Why should I pay a premium for Tivo?* A: Because it's a quality product which gives much more value than the Cable DVR.

*Q: Why does Tivo have such a short warranty?* A: Because the box fails so often that Tivo would go out of business if they had a longer warranty.

I have trouble understanding why the 1-year warranty would cost so much more for Tivo. All of my Tivo boxes have been rock solid. I even have a Series 1 from 2000 which is still working with the original drive. Obviously the boxes are well made. So why project a different image to the customer with a 90-day warranty?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

warrenn said:


> .......I have trouble understanding why the 1-year warranty would cost so much more for Tivo.


See post #85.


warrenn said:


> ....... All of my Tivo boxes have been rock solid. I even have a Series 1 from 2000 which is still working with the original drive. Obviously the boxes are well made......


Yet just a few posts back you said "That tells me their unit is crap".


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## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

dlfl said:


> I find little to quibble about in this moderate reasonable summary, recognizing that the final sentence is your opinion and others may differ (including TiVo who have to make the actual decision and are in the best position to know all the factors involved). However it seems like you have toned down your position from your earlier post:
> 
> Now you're saying "probably" and "if" instead of "should have". Which is your true opinion?


My opinion is the same as the 1st post - TIVO should have. The 2nd post simply states TIVO should, if they deem it appropriate, have some kind of "unofficial" accomodation program.



dlfl said:


> They "won my loyalty for years" but "I used to be a long term DirecTV subscriber"  This just seems to illustrate how "loyalty" is misused. If you were really loyal you would still be a DirecTV subscriber, woudn't you?


Not at all misued by either party. I did have D* for a number of years before finally "cutting the cord." The accomodations D* gave us defininetly kept us from considering cable. (I am in the Philly area which meant no local sports as Comcast Philly is not on D* and only available on cable). I do not speak for D*, but I assume they must must have had a business purpose in making those accomodations. Only D* can decide if it was worth it to them (and I would not be surprised if they considered many, many factors in making that decision).

I do not disagree overall that the TIVO warranty is what it says it is. The only thing that surprises me in this thread is that most posters do not acknowlege the conceptual idea that TIVO have some kind of accomodation program. (whether by "loyalty" or some other criteria that TIVO deems appropriate).


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

dlfl said:


> See post #85.
> 
> Yet just a few posts back you said "That tells me their unit is crap".


I don't have a Premier. The 90-day warranty makes me think way less of the Premier units. Did the older Tivo's have a 90-day warranty? I never checked. I assume that higher end products have a year warranty. I'd expect a 90-day warranty on a piece of crap mp3 player or something. In any case, when I as a consumer see a 90-day warranty I'm not expecting that unit to last a year.

I've never had to make a hardware service call so I really don't have a problem with Tivo's reliability. But a 90-day warranty is not a good thing when you're trying to attract new customers.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

warrenn said:


> So why project a different image to the customer with a 90-day warranty?


Because they want you to think the 90 warranty isnt enough and buy the extended warranty. Over all TiVo's have a low failure rate so they make money on the extended warranty because in most cases is does not get used.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

warrenn said:


> A 90 day warranty tells me that Tivo does not think their unit will last. Ninety days is nothing. Most electronics come with a year or at least 6 month warranty. The only time I see 90 day warranties is on refurbished stuff where the price is reduced to reflect that.


Moxi's parts and labor warranty is also 90 days. After the 90 days, the user will be charged labor: http://www.moxi.com/us/support/MC4R/Limited_Warranty_website.pdf

I don't know for a fact, but I suspect the average charge is more than $50. What other DVR manufacturer do you know that has a better waranty?


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

RVH said:


> I hope someone from Tivo management is paying attention...
> 
> I have been a Tivo customer for more than ten years and have purchased four Tivo boxes all with lifetime subscriptions. I was an early adopter of Tivo and have been an advocate and probably recommended at least a dozen people to buy. I've been a loyal customer and seemingly the type of customer any company would want.
> 
> ...


90 days? Good heavens. Even Dish network has a 1 year warranty on all their boxes and equipment.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

sac84371 said:


> RVH, I feel your pain. I got flamed beyond repair on my forum thread post. A few members came to my rescue but many kicked me while I was down. This forum is NOT what is use to be but the sad reason for this is a result of a few. And it always seems to be the same 15 or 20 folks that can't wait to attack you personally.


You must be thinking of a different forum. Folks here have always been willing to tell someone when their expectations are unrealistic, impractical, or just plain narcissistic. Search "I want a pony".

That said, it's true that TiVo is more frequently failing to meet people's expectations, whether those are realistic or not. That's why they're losing customers. TiVo has moved toward supporting standalone customers at a level that they can afford and they appear willing to let subscriptions seek their own level based on that.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Series3Sub said:


> 90 days? Good heavens. Even Dish network has a 1 year warranty on all their boxes and equipment.


When you get a DVR from Dish they are guaranteed 24 months of revenue from you at a substantially higher rate than TiVo's $20. So an average subscription probably assures them of over $1200 during that commitment. The average TiVo sale assures TiVo of only $340. Dish, DTV, and cable companies can afford to be more generous with their "free" DVRs because they can offset those costs with subscriber fees.


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## LarryAtHome (Feb 18, 2008)

RVH said:


> given that the main component has at least a 2-yr warranty


Why do you think that the hard disk has a two year warranty? The hard disk in the TiVo is an OEM hard disk and not a boxed version. When TiVo buys the hard disks they buy them with the warranty they choose from the manufacturer or even with no warranty and their price for the part reflects that. If one was in the computer industry, one should realize this. Warranty adds cost to the part. TiVo is doing the same thing in reducing the price by reducing the warranty, as do many other manufacturers. However, you did have the option to purchase a longer warranty but opted not to.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

This is tangentially a great reason to replace your drives with a separately available one - the warranty from a drive manufacturer will generally be much easier to deal with, in my experience, than whatever Tivo puts you through. YMMV, and I haven't had to warranty replace a hard drive in awhile, but at least if the replaced drive has a warranty failure you've got your original drive to restore from and aren't out of pocket for anything except MAYBE the shipping for sending the drive in. 

Plus, hard drive warranties vary - but you can get something for your tivo with a long one (like 5 years).

Just have to be careful what packaging you get and know your warranty length up front - and then check it on their website once you get the drive unpackaged. Why? Well, I once had an OEM-packaged drive that came up as having a retail-length warranty (which was SHORTER). Took a good long time on the phone with the company (I THINK it was WD, but I've drive-swapped with pretty much every company so I can't be sure) to sort that one out, but they made it good eventually by manually changing the warranty length in their database. If I had waited till it failed, I bet I would have been SOL.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

RVH, with a loyal friend like you, who needs enemies!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

nrc said:


> When you get a DVR from Dish they are guaranteed 24 months of revenue from you at a substantially higher rate than TiVo's $20. So an average subscription probably assures them of over $1200 during that commitment. The average TiVo sale assures TiVo of only $340. Dish, DTV, and cable companies can afford to be more generous with their "free" DVRs because they can offset those costs with subscriber fees.


In case you all forgot TiVo has a full warranty as long as you want to pay $20/month. It's Lifetime TiVos that have the 90 days.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

lessd said:


> In case you all forgot TiVo has a full warranty as long as you want to pay $20/month. It's Lifetime TiVos that have the 90 days.


Are you sure that's correct? TiVo's web site says:



> The TiVo DVR limited warranty comes free of charge along with the purchase of your DVR and offers 90 days of coverage for parts & labor and coverage for parts only for the length of your initial TiVo service commitment, starting from the DVR purchase date.


http://www.tivo.com/buytivo/faqs/about_warranties/index.html

So only "parts" are covered beyond 90 days and only for the duration of your commitment.

Seems like TiVo could benefit from playing the same game that DTV plays. Free replacement DVR whenever you need it but it pushes your commitment out another year from the replacement date.


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## belunos (Sep 19, 2002)

90 day warranty? I gotta say, that's.. pretty terrible in the industry. A tivo is essentially a computer, and I wouldn't buy a computer that had less than 1 year. Well, I guess that's not true, I bought a tivo :/


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I build my own Desktop PCs, but if I buy a laptop or netbook I get an extended warranty, just like I got one on my Premieres. Of course I probably won't need it since I've never had any Hardware issues with any TiVos before other then replacing a noisy fan.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

lrhorer said:


> More to the point, the length of time you have been a customer of TiVo implies very little about any level of loyalty to them. It merely implies the customer is satisfied with the value of the products they have purchased relative to the purchase price. Someone could be a TiVo owner for 50 years (once they have been in business that long), and purchased several dozen of their products, yet the moment some other manufacturer produces a better or equivalent product for the same cost or less, the buyer may switch in a figurative heartbeat. It doesn't mean they didn't remain customers for 50 years.


There are quite a few arguments here that try to define "loyalty", but the above quote nails it. Lot of people do not understand the difference between loyal customer and satisfied customer. Partially, the companies themselves are at fault. How many of you receives a letter or e-mail from the company you are doing business with stating "Thank you for being loyal customer"? Or "attached is your loyalty (bonus, check, discount - whatever)"
Length of the time you have been using the service or product is the simplest metric to trace and that is what companies are using to put you in a category of the "loyal" customer. There is a big difference between a satisfied customer and a loyal customer. Satisfied customer is likely to continue doing business with you as long as price for your service is justified by the service value and is relatively competitive with the rest of the market offerings. It is relatively easy to get satisfied customers, but it also very easy to lose them if you screw up even once.
Loyal customers are very rare and it is extremely hard to win customer loyalty. You have to do something so much beyond any call of duty, that customer will remember it every time they are exposed to advertisement for the similar product or service. You have to be so perfect in what you do that your loyal customer wouldn't even think of trying somebody else's service.
Loyal customer will use your service or product regardless of what competition has to offer just because he likes you.
Loyalty does exist for mom-and-pop businesses and personal service providers (such as barbers or dentists), but loyalty to the corporate product does not exist. Saying that you are loyal to the electronics box with some software or to the corporation that makes it is a joke.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

But the opposite of loyalty can certainly exist. I have my own list of 4 companies that provided such dreadful experiences that no power on earth could ever make me buy one of their products again even if it is a good product (which I would always doubt). [Don't worry, TiVo hasn't done anything nearly dreadful enough to get on the list :-].


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## pbcanney (Mar 31, 2011)

I'm still trying to figure out why cars break down right after the last payment


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

samo said:


> There are quite a few arguments here that try to define "loyalty", but the above quote nails it. Lot of people do not understand the difference between loyal customer and satisfied customer. Partially, the companies themselves are at fault. How many of you receives a letter or e-mail from the company you are doing business with stating "Thank you for being loyal customer"? Or "attached is your loyalty (bonus, check, discount - whatever)"
> Length of the time you have been using the service or product is the simplest metric to trace and that is what companies are using to put you in a category of the "loyal" customer. There is a big difference between a satisfied customer and a loyal customer. Satisfied customer is likely to continue doing business with you as long as price for your service is justified by the service value and is relatively competitive with the rest of the market offerings. It is relatively easy to get satisfied customers, but it also very easy to lose them if you screw up even once.
> Loyal customers are very rare and it is extremely hard to win customer loyalty. You have to do something so much beyond any call of duty, that customer will remember it every time they are exposed to advertisement for the similar product or service. You have to be so perfect in what you do that your loyal customer wouldn't even think of trying somebody else's service.
> Loyal customer will use your service or product regardless of what competition has to offer just because he likes you.
> Loyalty does exist for mom-and-pop businesses and personal service providers (such as barbers or dentists), but loyalty to the corporate product does not exist. Saying that you are loyal to the electronics box with some software or to the corporation that makes it is a joke.


:up::up::up:


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tomhorsley said:


> But the opposite of loyalty can certainly exist. I have my own list of 4 companies that provided such dreadful experiences that no power on earth could ever make me buy one of their products again even if it is a good product (which I would always doubt). [Don't worry, TiVo hasn't done anything nearly dreadful enough to get on the list :-].


That would be the opposite of satisfied customer  EG you were so DISsatisfied with some customer experience that it will keep you from using the company or product again.

This also keys into why a good many of these threads get a poor response from the OPs perspective. In this one TiVo exactly honored the terms and conditions set out at POS. The OP posted that he was dissatisfied with only getting the spelled out terms and conditions and wanted TiVo to forgo the 50$ charge because of his using the product in general for so long and that the one that went down was only 6 months in use. many stated that this was simply not enough in itself for TiVo to be "loyal" to the customer. I agreed.

Samo points out that expecting a corporation to show such "loyalty" as to forgo its normal charges is also a naive expectation. I also agree with that.


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## tsrich (Dec 1, 2006)

One of my older Tivo's died recently and I was looking to replace it. 

I think you guys on this thread have convinced me not to replace it with a Tivo.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

tsrich said:


> One of my older Tivo's died recently and I was looking to replace it.
> 
> I think you guys on this thread have convinced me not to replace it with a Tivo.


I can give you lots of reasons to buy a TiVo and lots of reasons not to. Ultimately it comes down to your own personal circumstances. That said I wouldn't worry much about the warranty one way or the other. If the risk bothers you TiVo's extended warranties are cheap enough just factor the extended warranties extra costs into your over all costs and make a decision based on that. I was much more concerned about paying $2200 for a TV 3 years ago that only came with a 1 year warranty than I am about paying $500 now for a Premiere with lifetime and I still didn't get the extended warranty for the TV.

Good Luck,


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tsrich said:


> One of my older Tivo's died recently and I was looking to replace it.
> 
> I think you guys on this thread have convinced me not to replace it with a Tivo.


I have 7 TiVo DVRs I know of still in operation. the oldest is coming up on year 5 and all are way over 90 days. I have had 1 hard drive fail and 1 power supply fail out of all that. The power supply failed after 4 years - the hard drive was one i swapped in for a larger size.

bottom line - the warranty being only 90 days and then 50$ for 9 months is actually fairly standard for 3rd party DVRs and has presented no issues for most folks

details--
I was lucky on the power supply since I had some Tivo parts lying around from some 'experiments'. In both cases I had the DVR back up in operation the same day. For the hard drive I simply put the original drive, I kept in a plastic ziplock on a shelf, back in. A week later my replacement 700 meg drive (best value at the time) came in and I simply did an upgrade with full disc copy and that was done in 4 hours. If I did not have a power supply handy they can be bought online pretty cheaply or you cna have a 3rd party put in a new power supply for you or you can go the 50$ to TiVo route to have them send you a working model


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## vio2112 (Apr 18, 2011)

Ok, I've been reading through the other posts and I continue to see people implying the warranty is only 90 days. I made it quite clear in a previous post that the 90 day warranty is ONLY FOR LABOR. YET AGAIN, if you were outside the full warranty, the exchange would cost you 150 bucks, NOT 50 bucks!

This is directly from Tivo's site:

"What is the hardware warranty?"

All Premiere, Premiere XL, TiVo HD, TiVo HD XL, Series3, and Series2 DT DVRs have a 90-day warranty on parts and labor.

*The parts warranty continues for the length of the commitment of the original service plan used to activate the box.* (<---DID YOU GUYS READ THAT???)

This warranty covers all new and factory-renewed boxes whether purchased from TiVo Direct or a third-party retailer.

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/32/kw/warranty

This is a fair and standard warranty policy for a modern consumer electronics product. I hope everyone is clear on this now. This is not complex stuff.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

vio2112 said:


> Ok, I've been reading through the other posts and I continue to see people implying the warranty is only 90 days. I made it quite clear in a previous post that the 90 day warranty is ONLY FOR LABOR. YET AGAIN, if you were outside the full warranty, the exchange would cost you 150 bucks, NOT 50 bucks!
> 
> This is directly from Tivo's site:
> 
> ...


Apparently this is *"complex stuff*" for some on this form because youre not factoring in the Loyalty point, the *unwritten* rules about how any co. should treat a long time customer.


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## jag128 (Jul 6, 2003)

I purchased an iPhone 3GS about 2+ years ago. I've had about 9 replacement phones from Apple, all for free. Every time I notice an issue (poor battery life, poor reception, worn out headphone jack, even a cracked screen that happened when the phone fell onto cement) I bring the phone back to the Genius bar, and they give me a new phone.. no questions asked, no hassle. THAT is what it means to go above and beyond for customer service. While I dont expect every company to go that far, for a HD to fail on a Tivo and have the customer be required to pay $50 after only 6 months is rediculous. I agree, FAIL for Tivo. And in this day and age when people are cutting the cord left and right, or switching to Cable Co DVR, Tivo needs to have stellar customer service, which it obviously doesnt. So why get a Tivo anymore? I have no idea.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jag128 said:


> I purchased an iPhone 3GS about 2+ years ago. I've had about 9 replacement phones from Apple, all for free. Every time I notice an issue (poor battery life, poor reception, worn out headphone jack, even a cracked screen that happened when the phone fell onto cement) I bring the phone back to the Genius bar, and they give me a new phone.. no questions asked, no hassle. THAT is what it means to go above and beyond for customer service. While I dont expect every company to go that far, for a HD to fail on a Tivo and have the customer be required to pay $50 after only 6 months is rediculous. I agree, FAIL for Tivo. And in this day and age when people are cutting the cord left and right, or switching to Cable Co DVR, Tivo needs to have stellar customer service, which it obviously doesnt. So why get a Tivo anymore? I have no idea.


iPhone has one of the highest margins in business. You pay the 50$ and an extended warranty when you first purchase the device. Especially if you go up in flash memory size. 12$ more for extra memory and 100$ more for the total hardware. TiVo has no such margin.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I agree- Apple is rolling in cash. No doubt they can afford to buy off a complaining customer. What were their policies back in the 90s when they were marginalized to a nitch player? I'm sure they didn't replace their materials like this back then.

In addition, you can go search plenty of customers who did not get the treatment jag128 got. I searched "apple will not replace my broken phone" and got 46 million results. Here is one such link: http://www.appleiphonereview.com/news-opinion/iphone-glass-repair/


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## wtkflhn (May 12, 2006)

Well. Before you blow off TIVO, let me tell you my story. My first TIVO was an S2 single tuner unit. Later I added an S3, with Lifetime svc. The digital transition was taking place, my S2 unit died. Since it was analog only, I didn't see any reason to fix it. I went out and bought a new HD TIVO. When I called in to register it and get lifetime svc for it, I told the cs rep I had the dead S2 to cancel it's service. TIVO came back and said, "Oh no, don't do that! Let us send you another S2 at no cost". They emailed me the return auth. and I sent it back. The new unit (refurbished) that came back was a dual tuner unit. It is still running today. I was really surprised that they would do this because I wasn't expecting it.

Thanks TIVO.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

They probably did it because they're not selling too many analog Tivos these days following the transition to digital broadcasting. An analog Tivo is only of any use if you can still get analog channels on your cable system. Many providers have already gone all digital, rendering your DT Tivo completely useless.

I don't buy into anything that has the letter "i" preceding the name. Everything Apple sells is proprietary so you're stuck with whatever technology they see fit to give you. I don't like products that force you to buy from only a single source. 

Competition is good for the marketplace and especially the consumer. Apple can afford to replace your iPhone because they charge you through the nose for something that costs them very little to produce in mass quantities. They also don't want the bad publicity if people ever found out that their products don't match up to the hype. It's cheaper to buy off a few customers than deal with lawsuits. The auto manufacturers do it all the time.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

wtkflhn said:


> Well. Before you blow off TIVO, let me tell you my story. My first TIVO was an S2 single tuner unit. Later I added an S3, with Lifetime svc. The digital transition was taking place, my S2 unit died. Since it was analog only, I didn't see any reason to fix it. I went out and bought a new HD TIVO. When I called in to register it and get lifetime svc for it, I told the cs rep I had the dead S2 to cancel it's service. TIVO came back and said, "Oh no, don't do that! Let us send you another S2 at no cost". They emailed me the return auth. and I sent it back. The new unit (refurbished) that came back was a dual tuner unit. It is still running today. I was really surprised that they would do this because I wasn't expecting it.
> 
> Thanks TIVO.


You were paying a monthly subscription on the S2 and Tivo wanted to keep your revenue stream. It doesn't make sense to pay a monthly subscription on an S2 because you can buy a used S2 with lifetime service for ~$150. The dual tuner S2 is reduced to a single tuner if you have to use a cable box and it doesn't work at all with over the air tv.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

rainwater said:


> So there's no warranty and they only are going to charge you $50 to exchange it? That seems like a good deal to me. Try getting that deal with other electronics manufacturers.


I agree completely, I know the warranty terms and I take the chance anyway, don't purchase an extended warranty and accept the risks. I consider this offer generous and would be very happy. It isn't as if TiVo made any money on the hardware, in fact, TiVo rarely (never?) shows a profit from operations and as far as I know, always shows a loss from hardware sales. This doesn't leave room to do anything beyond the warranty terms but TiVo did anyway in this case so I see nothing to whine about and would tell the customer service representative thank you, take the offer and move on.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

jag128 said:


> I purchased an iPhone 3GS about 2+ years ago. I've had about 9 replacement phones from Apple, all for free. .


You must be kidding! You had to replace your iPhone 9 times in 2 years and you still didn't switch to Droid? That is real loyalty


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

samo said:


> You must be kidding! You had to replace your iPhone 9 times in 2 years and you still didn't switch to Droid? That is real loyalty


or just stubborn stupidity


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Nine times is extremely bad. I'm glad I got an android. I've had it around a year now, and no issues with it. I've never had any cell phone over the last seventeen years that needed to be replaced multiple times.


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