# Game of Thrones 5/11/2014 "The Laws of Gods and Men" S04E06



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Whether or not Tywin was involved in Joffrey's murder, he clearly took advantage of it to arrange Tyrion's departure from the family. And as icing on the cake, Jaime begged him to do something he was most likely already going to do anyway. And thus he was able to maneuver him into continuing the family line.

Very clever Tywin. But not clever enough.

For all the uncensored language on the show, Tyrion ended the episode with the biggest FU yet.

Not only did he admit to wanting Joffrey dead, while still denying killing him (and therefore raising questions as to why he would do that unless he really was innocent), but he requested trial by combat knowing that Jaime would step in for him.

So now, Tywin, either your precious boy dies or your other one walks.

In other news, it was good getting an update on Theon, although I'm confused as to where they were. Did Yara find out they were heading for Moat Cailin instead of The Dreadfort or had Ramsey not left for that yet?

It seems like Ramsey should have left for that by now, but if he was going to use Theon to help him take back Moat Cailin, then that means he hadn't yet taken it back. But if so, where was he? Some random fort controlled by a lesser lord of the North that was one of Bolton's bannermen? Some other random fort that Ramsey and his men took over by force?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

That lying whore!

As far as I'm concerned, Ramsay and Theon can disappear from the story and I won't care. Maybe they're important to the overall story but they're just a waste of tv time so far.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

This episode shoulda been titled "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" 



Spoiler



Episode 8 is titled "The Mountain and the Viper". Something tells me Tyrion chooses Oberyn and not Jaimie.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I don't know if Jaime COULD be chosen...he's basically a party in the trial, being a representative of the Crown...


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't know if Jaime COULD be chosen...he's basically a party in the trial, being a representative of the Crown...


Not to mention not having a sword hand he can rely on.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't know if Jaime COULD be chosen...he's basically a party in the trial, being a representative of the Crown...


That was my worry as well. I would really look forward to a battle between Jaime and that other King's guard (the one with the beard, who testified against Tyrion and who wants Jaime out of the way so he can become the leader of the King's guard).

That bearded guy has shown a lot of disdain for Jaime. Faced with the prospect of having Jaime die, I'm sure Tywin would rig the fight and the bearded guy would die (that would make me happy since I hate him!).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

And I was shocked....SHOCKED...that Tywin figured out a way to get Jaime to do what he wanted Jaime to do (leave the King's guard) 

Tywin is just fantastic.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> This episode shoulda been titled "Hell hath has no fury like a woman scorned"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I recommend you put that in spoiler tags before the fury of TCF descends upon you.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> That lying whore!
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, Ramsay and Theon can disappear from the story and I won't care. Maybe they're important to the overall story but they're just a waste of tv time so far.


Absolutely this! That storyline really reeks!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Something tells me Tyrion chooses <snip>


I cut out the spoilerish part. But nonetheless, in Trial by Combat, does the accused choose his defender, or does someone have to step forward for him?



Anubys said:


> And I was shocked....SHOCKED...that Tywin figured out a way to get Jaime to do what he wanted Jaime to do (leave the King's guard)
> 
> Tywin is just fantastic.


Yeah, when we realized the endgame of Tywin's maneuvers, my wife & I looked at each with one of those "ain't he a smart SOB" look. And when Tyrion trumped his father's moves with a FU of his own, one couldn't help but smile.

I can do without Reek too.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> This episode shoulda been titled "Hell hath has no fury like a woman scorned"
> 
> Episode 8 is titled "The Mountain and the Viper". Something tells me Tyrion chooses Oberyn and not Jaimie.





Spoiler



Or it could be The Mountain vs Jaime. Let's see Tywin rig that one.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Bob Coxner said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Or it could be The Mountain vs Jaime. Let's see Tywin rig that one.


I spoilerized my prediction.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

My prediction is that Dinklage gets an emmy for that performance.

As I was watching the trial, I told my fiance, "Tyrion isn't going to go along with this castle black nonsense". Then Shae testified and I figured he would in order to protect her (my assumption is she was coerced, either to protect herself or to protect Tyrion).

Then I see him absolutely explode and unload on the crowd, and I know there's no way he's asking for mercy! The scene unfolded perfectly. 

Now, who we he choose for his trial by combat? I'm assuming that Jaime is unavailable. Otherwise he would be the perfect choice, as Tywin would not risk the loss of both of his male heirs (Jaime would lose because of his disability, Tyrion would then be executed). 

Then my mind goes through the remaining candidates, from 'good swordsmen' that we know. The Hound is a wanted man, so it's not going to be him. I don't even know where The Mountain is, but he would certainly be a formidable (though not necessarily willing) champion. I don't know the skill of the Prince from Dorne, but I don't see him sticking his neck out for a Lannister.

That leaves my prediction... Jon Snow. He would certainly kill a Lannister champion given the choice. He and Tyrion seemed to get along well at the wall ("All dwarves are bastards in their father's eye"). He has the skill. Requesting him could lead to a delaying action, allowing Tyrion to pursue some other crafty means of resolving the situation. 

The other alternatives I see are Brienne and Loras, but neither seems like a fit to the situation.


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

Is the fighter for the crown by default the captain of the king's guard? or will it be whoever Tywin appoints?

likewise can Tyrion (attempt) to select his champion? Or is it only those that volunteer for him? (I'm, go back to that time that Tyrion invoked at The Vale, where he had no one really to stand for him, so he did accept any volunteer)


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

smbaker said:


> The other alternatives I see are Brienne and Loras, but neither seems like a fit to the situation.


Why not Bronn? He fought for Tyrion in a trial by combat once before and he's certainly a better fighter than Jamie at this point.


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

You wouldn't put Bron in his selection pool as well?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> Why not Bronn? He fought for Tyrion in a trial by combat once before and he's certainly a better fighter than Jamie at this point.


Bronn fights dirty, he fights to win, and he fights when he has something to gain. He might be able to take some random dude in The Vale by surprise, but I don't see him besting whomever Tywin puts up as champion. Even if he won, what would the Lannisters do to him afterward?

Also, Tywin can pay more than Tyrion can. Bronn is a sellsword. While I think he does have a bit of a soft spot and some loyalty to Tyrion, that loyalty has its limits.

I see too much downside and too little upside for Bronn.

Finally, Bronn as a champion has been done before in the series, and I don't see them repeating it verbatim.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Cersei has accused Tyrion of murder, so she gets to choose a champion. Tyrion can ask someone to fight for him, but someone has to be willing to do it. If no one stands as Tyrion's champion, Tyrion fights for himself.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I think too much screen time was dedicated to Bronn training Jaime for at least one of them not to be involved.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

For fairness, Tyrion should get to fight one of the midgets from the wedding.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

cheesesteak said:


> For fairness, Tyrion should get to fight one of the midgets from the wedding.


Because fairness is what this trial is all about!


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> For fairness, Tyrion should get to fight one of the midgets from the wedding.


Agreed. That's the only fair way to do this.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

smbaker said:


> As I was watching the trial, I told my fiance, "Tyrion isn't going to go along with this castle black nonsense". Then Shae testified and I figured he would in order to protect her (my assumption is she was coerced, either to protect herself or to protect Tyrion).


I don't think she was coerced. She is a spurned lover that he treated like a whore (give her money and send her away, doesn't help that she WAS a whore)


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

zordude said:


> She is a spurned lover that he treated like a whore (give her money and send her away, doesn't help that she WAS a whore)


Tyrion actually treated Shae pretty well. If Tywin or Cersei found her, it was likely that they would torture or kill her. So Tyrion sent her away for her own safety.

Shae probably did not understand that, though.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Tyrion actually treated Shae pretty well. If Tywin or Cersei found her, it was likely that they would torture or kill her. So Tyrion sent her away for her own safety.
> 
> Shae probably did not understand that, though.


Yeah, definitely. He did what was best for her, and she was too clueless to realize it.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

zordude said:


> She is a spurned lover that he treated like a whore (give her money and send her away, doesn't help that she WAS a whore)


But he made it clear on many occasions that he needed to send her away for her own safety. Shae was willing to roll the dice with her own life, but Tyrion was not. I never got the impression that the character of Shae was intended to be _stupid_. To value love over safety perhaps, and to disobey Tyrion and try to stay with him rather than leaving, certainly.

For her to not only betray him, but even lie about him and Sansa (whom she also seemed to care for), says to me that she has been manipulated and coerced.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't know if Jaime COULD be chosen...he's basically a party in the trial, being a representative of the Crown...


Which leads to while Tommen recused himself from the trial but Tywin, as Tyrion's _father_, had no conflict of interest? Cause everybody knows he hates his dwarf kid?


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

smbaker said:


> ...For her to not only betray him, but even lie about him and Sansa (whom she also seemed to care for), says to me that she has been manipulated and coerced.


I agree. She was also scentencing Sansa to death as well.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm trying to figure out what they offered to Shae to get her to turn on Tyrion, IIRC he set her up somewhere across the sea (Pentos?) so she was pretty much beyond the reach of the Iron Throne. Is she upset at him for his "kiss off" speech? Is she too stupid to realize what would have happened had she stayed? Maybe they told her Tyrion would be exiled if found guilty and she thought she could sneak him of to Pentos.

I think Jamie will end up being Tyrion's champion, or at least will volunteer to do so.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I think too much screen time was dedicated to Bronn training Jaime for at least one of them not to be involved.


Where is Bronn anyway? Are we to think that he had a hand in keeping Shae around?

Two clues in the trial: Varys said he does remember his pledge which could man he has something planned. Remember how Varys could sneak into the dungeons to talk to Ned.

Appointing the Prince of Dorian to the panel might have been a mistake for Tywin. He could vote against him at trial or make the trial plan messy.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

tiassa said:


> I'm trying to figure out what they offered to Shae to get her to turn on Tyrion, IIRC he set her up somewhere across the sea (Pentos?) so she was pretty much beyond the reach of the Iron Throne...


I'm assuming she never made it.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Doran wants the Mountain dead, so there's an extra incentive to pick him for the fight (and make him lose?)


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

tiassa said:


> I'm trying to figure out what they offered to Shae to get her to turn on Tyrion, IIRC he set her up somewhere across the sea (Pentos?) so she was pretty much beyond the reach of the Iron Throne.


You are assuming they persuaded her rather than threatened her. We do not know that Shae was actually outside of Westeros, and even if she were, if Cersei wanted she could probably send a spy to find out where Shae went and get her. Or, if Cersei offered Bronn enough money, he would likely betray Tyrion and Shae. Then Cersei would be able to threaten Shae to get her to say whatever she wanted.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Did Vary's "little birds" intelligence tell the small council that Arya Strak is alive and with The Hound?

Does Jon Snow know that Bran is alive because Sam met him?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeAndrews said:


> Which leads to while Tommen recused himself from the trial but Tywin, as Tyrion's _father_, had no conflict of interest? Cause everybody knows he hates his dwarf kid?


Maybe Tommen's conflict of interest was that he might have a soft spot for his funny uncle?


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Which leads to while Tommen recused himself from the trial but Tywin, as Tyrion's _father_, had no conflict of interest?


Did Tommen recuse himself due to a conflict of interest or because his grandpa told him to?


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> Did Vary's "little birds" intelligence tell the small council that Arya Strak is alive and with The Hound?
> 
> Does Jon Snow know that Bran is alive because Sam met him?


I _think_ Bran (or maybe Jojen) made Sam swear not to tell Jon Snow that they had met. I'm less sure about the Arya/Hound situation.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

smbaker said:


> My prediction is that Dinklage gets an emmy for that performance.


Absolutely! He was PERFECT! I loved that hint of a smile that crossed his lips when he looked at his father after making his speech and asking for the trial by battle.



Shaunnick said:


> Cersei has accused Tyrion of murder, so she gets to choose a champion.


Well this is bad news for Tyrion, because she truly wants him dead.



zordude said:


> I don't think she was coerced. She is a spurned lover that he treated like a whore (give her money and send her away, doesn't help that she WAS a whore)





john4200 said:


> Tyrion actually treated Shae pretty well. If Tywin or Cersei found her, it was likely that they would torture or kill her. So Tyrion sent her away for her own safety.
> 
> Shae probably did not understand that, though.


Shae was pissed! A woman scorned and all that jazz. Although it about killed Tyrion to say all those horrible things to her, he knew that was the only way he would ever get her to leave and in order to keep her safe, he had to make her believe it. He did a good job.



tiassa said:


> IIRC he set her up somewhere across the sea (Pentos?) so she was pretty much beyond the reach of the Iron Throne.





pmyers said:


> I'm assuming she never made it.


I also assume she never made it onto the ship. I sensed a bit of foreshadowing when they had the scene with Tyrion questioning Bronn if he was *positive* that she was on the ship.

I'm not too sure Bronn wasn't involved in her *not* getting on the ship. He's been loyal to Tyrion so far and they have a great camaraderie, but I don't trust him for a second.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> Does Jon Snow know that Bran is alive because Sam met him?


Yes. I believe there was a scene about this two episodes ago.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

tivoboyjr said:


> Did Tommen recuse himself due to a conflict of interest or because his grandpa told him to?


Maybe his grandfather told him he had a conflict of interest.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

allan said:


> Maybe his grandfather told him he had a conflict of interest.


I think his grandpa told him "Trials are big boy stuff. Go play with your Legos."


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smbaker said:


> For her to not only betray him, but even lie about him and Sansa (whom she also seemed to care for), says to me that she has been manipulated and coerced.


I don't think she was manipulated or coerced. I think she felt betrayed by Tyrion so she's paying him back for the way he spurned her.



Jstkiddn said:


> I also assume she never made it onto the ship. I sensed a bit of foreshadowing when they had the scene with Tyrion questioning Bronn if he was *positive* that she was on the ship.


And don't forget the scene where Cersei's spy overhears Tyrion and Shae talking and then goes and tells Cersei what's going on. They wouldn't show that if Shae simply got on a ship and went away. That scene was there to let us know that Shae was never getting away from Kings Landing and that Cersei would get to her.



MikeAndrews said:


> Does Jon Snow know that Bran is alive because Sam met him?


Yes, Sam told Jon, which is half the reason Jon wanted to go to Craster's Keep and kill the mutineers, because he also thought that was the most likely place Bran would be as well.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Dawghows said:


> I _think_ Bran (or maybe Jojen) made Sam swear not to tell Jon Snow that they had met. I'm less sure about the Arya/Hound situation.





DevdogAZ said:


> ...Yes, Sam told Jon, which is half the reason Jon wanted to go to Craster's Keep and kill the mutineers, because he also thought that was the most likely place Bran would be as well.


OK, well. Shows what I know.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

tivoboyjr said:


> I think his grandpa told him "Trials are big boy stuff. Go play with your Legos."


And in Game of Thrones world, "Legos" are actual legs lost in combat or torture!


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> Yes. I believe there was a scene about this two episodes ago.


No, Jon does not know this. I don't recall where, but I believe that Bran swore Sam to secrecy.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Being a bookreader, I can say without a doubt and without spoiling anything, that you all are in for a fun few episodes. 

They have deviated from the books significantly this season, but the overall story is still there.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think she was manipulated or coerced. I think she felt betrayed by Tyrion so she's paying him back for the way he spurned her...


I just don't agree with this. Shae seemed to really like Sansa and I just don't think she would do this to Sansa.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Being a bookreader, I can say without a doubt and without spoiling anything, that you all are in for a fun few episodes.  They have deviated from the books significantly this season, but the overall story is still there.


Without spoiling much, are some of the guesses in this thread correct? PM me so nobody freaks out.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

First of all, I don't think there is any way Shae would so viciously turn on Tyrion and Sansa unless she was flat out threatened. The other possibility is that she was tricked into giving the false testimony, and she actually thought she was somehow helping Tyrion or Sansa's cause. I realize she was angry and hurt when Tyrion sent her away, but I can't imagine that she felt so betrayed by him that she would actually want him dead. If this turns out to be the case, the show certainly didn't give us any reason to believe this.

Secondly, I simply don't understand the whole "trial by combat" thing. The entire concept seems flawed to me. Murdering the king has to be, without a doubt, the most serious crime a person can be accused of. So this basically means that anyone who is accused of anything can invoke trial by combat. Therefore, it's logical to conclude that as long as someone has an ally that is an incredibly good swordsman and willing to fight for them, they can basically get away with anything. This doesn't seem particularly just, does it?


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> Does Jon Snow know that Bran is alive because Sam met him?





Dawghows said:


> I _think_ Bran (or maybe Jojen) made Sam swear not to tell Jon Snow that they had met....





kaszeta said:


> Yes. I believe there was a scene about this two episodes ago.





DevdogAZ said:


> .Yes, Sam told Jon, which is half the reason Jon wanted to go to Craster's Keep and kill the mutineers, because he also thought that was the most likely place Bran would be as well.





Dawghows said:


> OK, well. Shows what I know.





DavidTigerFan said:


> No, Jon does not know this. I don't recall where, but I believe that Bran swore Sam to secrecy.


OK, then maybe I remember better than I thought.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

pmyers said:


> I just don't agree with this. Shae seemed to really like Sansa and I just don't think she would do this to Sansa.


She was jealous of Sansa once she married Tyrion and Shae realized they would have to sleep together. The seed of jealousy was already there and then Tryion's horrible words to her caused it to sprout.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think she was manipulated or coerced. I think she felt betrayed by Tyrion so she's paying him back for the way he spurned her.


That was my impression too. Hell hath no fury.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> No, Jon does not know this. I don't recall where, but I believe that Bran swore Sam to secrecy.


Go watch "Oathkeeper" again. Jon definitely knows.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

gweempose said:


> Secondly, I simply don't understand the whole "trial by combat" thing. The entire concept seems flawed to me. Murdering the king has to be, without a doubt, the most serious crime a person can be accused of. So this basically means that anyone who is accused of anything can invoke trial by combat. Therefore, it's logical to conclude that as long as someone has an ally that is an incredibly good swordsman and willing to fight for them, they can basically get away with anything. This doesn't seem particularly just, does it?


"Just" doesn't seem to be part of GoT in any case, but it does seem like if you can get a good enough swordsman (or are one, like Jamie with both hands), you could get away with anything.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

smbaker said:


> My prediction is that Dinklage gets an emmy for that performance.


I had the same reaction - that was some incredible acting.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

allan said:


> "Just" doesn't seem to be part of GoT in any case, but it does seem like if you can get a good enough swordsman (or are one, like Jamie with both hands), you could get away with anything.


I suspect that anyone who is that good in a fight has already been recruited by the King or the Kingsguard. Offered a lot of money, if necessary. Or assassinated if they are not loyal.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

kaszeta said:


> Go watch "Oathkeeper" again. Jon definitely knows.


Correct


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

pmyers said:


> I just don't agree with this. Shae seemed to really like Sansa and I just don't think she would do this to Sansa.


If Shay feels like Tyrion is pushing her away because he does not desire her anymore, but that he in fact desires Sansa, well, it maybe cliche, but she could be jealous of Sansa now and wants to screw her over.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

gweempose said:


> ...Secondly, I simply don't understand the whole "trial by combat" thing. The entire concept seems flawed to me. Murdering the king has to be, without a doubt, the most serious crime a person can be accused of. So this basically means that anyone who is accused of anything can invoke trial by combat. Therefore, it's logical to conclude that as long as someone has an ally that is an incredibly good swordsman and willing to fight for them, they can basically get away with anything. This doesn't seem particularly just, does it?


The justice comes from The Gods. The Gods determine that justice is served.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combat

Similar premise: Trial by Ordeal although I don't see that anyone would request that.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

kaszeta said:


> Go watch "Oathkeeper" again. Jon definitely knows.


Yep. There is a scene between Sam and Jon where Sam apologized to Jon for not successfully convincing Bran to come with him to Castle Black.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> Go watch "Oathkeeper" again. Jon definitely knows.


I'm sorry....doesn't spoil anything, but Jon never knows about Bran in the books. Not sure why they changed it. Also...



Spoiler



The whole Craster's keep assault by Jon isn't in the books.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> As far as I'm concerned, Ramsay and Theon can disappear from the story and I won't care.


I agree that their story isn't that interesting at the moment, and if both had died in this episode, I would have been fine with that. But at the same time, I at least want some resolution to the loose threads, so I'm glad the writers gave us an update. I had been wondering for the past couple of episodes what was up with them, and when Yara was going to make her move.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't know if Jaime COULD be chosen...he's basically a party in the trial, being a representative of the Crown...


Good point. I hadn't thought about that. Although perhaps Tyrion knows that Jaime, being a representative of the Crown, would be forced to fight on the other side, and thus be involved anyway. If that's the case, then that means Tyrion thinks Jaime is involved in the conspiracy against him, which is ironic, considering what Jaime just gave up for him. Leave it to this show to make you feel sorry for a guy who pushed a young boy out of a window because he was caught having intimate relations with his married sister.

On the other hand, given that we know Jaime was willing to give up his position for Tyrion, maybe he will end up doing that anyway. (If necessary. IANAGOTL.)



smbaker said:


> For her to not only betray him, but even lie about him and Sansa (whom she also seemed to care for), says to me that she has been manipulated and coerced.


I agree. They have always shown Shae to be an intelligent and capable woman. I'm fairly certain she saw right through Tyrion's words to send her away, and was upset not at what he said, but why he said it. The fact that he was willing to say those things made her realize how serious he was about getting her away from King's Landing. And even though she didn't agree with him, she loved him enough to give in to his wishes, and leave.

My guess is that Varys got to her on the ship, and either threatened her or convinced her that she needed to play the frightened whore in order to be in a position to help Tyrion later on. Which depends on whose side Varys is on, and I'm not sure about that right now.

I'd like to think he has some plan to help Tyrion. But as he himself has said, he's no hero. On the other hand, depending on how much he is aware of Petyr Baelish's involvement in this whole affair, he might be working at some means of undermining his plan.

Varys might not be a hero, but given the effort that he put into finding the wizard who abused him, we definitely know he is capable of vengeance.



DavidTigerFan said:


> I'm sorry....doesn't spoil anything, but Jon never knows about Bran in the books. Not sure why they changed it.


I suppose since Bran ended up leaving before Jon had a chance to see him, they ended up in the same place, but might have done so to get a TV "close call" moment.

Regarding your spoiler about the Craster's keep assault in the books,



Spoiler



...does that mean Locke never met up with Bran? Or did he even go after them in the books?


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...does that mean Locke never met up with Bran? Or did he even go after them in the books?





Spoiler



Locke doesn't exist in the books. He's a somewhat changed version of Vargho Hoat


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Locke doesn't exist in the books. He's a somewhat changed version of Vargho Hoat





Spoiler



Ah, okay. Given the character's name, and the fact that Jon and Sam ended up talking to each other instead of keeping secrets, my guess is that this was done because Martin heard the criticism of Lost, and decided to introduce a character to help avoid that.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I believe that Shae is somehow being coerced by someone. Littlefinger?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> And I was shocked....SHOCKED...that Tywin figured out a way to get Jaime to do what he wanted Jaime to do (leave the King's guard)
> 
> Tywin is just fantastic.


And from the look on Jamie's face when Tywin jumped at his offer, he knew he had played right into his hands. Too late. 



MikeAndrews said:


> Did Vary's "little birds" intelligence tell the small council that Arya Strak is alive and with The Hound?


I don't think anyone knows Arya is alive or cares where the Hound is.

No one has mentioned Dany's wild dragons or the fact that Varys does know about them. Somebody needs to look up some books on dragon taming. 



gweempose said:


> First of all, I don't think there is any way Shae would so viciously turn on Tyrion and Sansa unless she was flat out threatened. The other possibility is that she was tricked into giving the false testimony, and she actually thought she was somehow helping Tyrion or Sansa's cause. I realize she was angry and hurt when Tyrion sent her away, but I can't imagine that she felt so betrayed by him that she would actually want him dead. If this turns out to be the case, the show certainly didn't give us any reason to believe this.
> 
> Secondly, I simply don't understand the whole "trial by combat" thing.


I thought the longer Shae talked, the more it sounded like it was scripted by Cercei. If Cercei promised her a life in Bravos or something, I hope she got it in writing. 

Yeah, the trial by combat is kind of a religious thing which is weird since almost no one we've met so far seems to have any faith in any of the 7 gods. I'm sure anyone Tyrion asks to fight for him can refuse, and it wouldn't be good for your future health to agree to it and win. He'll have trouble finding a champion.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> I had been wondering for the past couple of episodes what was up with them, and when Yara was going to make her move.


The whole Yara storming the castle sequence was rather anti-climactic, especially after the impassioned speech she gave to her men on the ship. All this build up, and then she takes one look at Theon and turns around and heads home. Kind of lame, in my opinion.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I don't think anyone knows Arya is alive or cares where the Hound is.


I thought Tywin raised the bounty on the Hound after hearing that he had killed several of the King's men.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I'm at a loss to imagine how anyone thinks Jamie could possibly fight for either side. He's lost the sword hand he spend 30+ years learning how to use. Any competent knight would hand him his ass in short order.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Locke doesn't exist in the books. He's a somewhat changed version of Vargho Hoat





Spoiler



Not only that, but the character itself has alot more in the series than book. Hoat never goes to the wall to find Bran and Rickon.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

gweempose said:


> The whole Yara storming the castle sequence was rather anti-climactic, especially after the impassioned speech she gave to her men on the ship. All this build up, and then she takes one look at Theon and turns around and heads home. Kind of lame, in my opinion.


I thought the same. It seems the Iron Born are not so bad-ass after all, if they can be beaten into retreat, wearing armor mind you, by a shirtless scrawny boy. And even once he released the hounds, they were right there, so it is not like the hounds would come as a pack. One or two dogs at a time are not such a problem for someone in armor with a sword or axe who knows how to use it.

Either the Iron Born are actually wimps, or the show writers really botched that scene (since it is not in the books).


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> No one has mentioned Dany's wild dragons or the fact that Varys does know about them. Somebody needs to look up some books on dragon taming.





Spoiler



I think that one interesting diversion from the book is that in the books, i believe the goatherder's child is killed by the dragon. Guess they didn't want to go that far on the series. I could be mis-remembering though


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You also could be spoilering a potential plot development in the next couple of episodes.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

BitbyBlit said:


> It seems like Ramsey should have left for that by now, but if he was going to use Theon to help him take back Moat Cailin, then that means he hadn't yet taken it back. But if so, where was he? Some random fort controlled by a lesser lord of the North that was one of Bolton's bannermen? Some other random fort that Ramsey and his men took over by force?


I thought Ramsey was either at Winterfell or the Dreadfort. Where were they last time when Tywin asked him to go take Moat Cailin? Hadn't they gone to take over what's left of Winterfell?



gweempose said:


> The whole Yara storming the castle sequence was rather anti-climactic, especially after the impassioned speech she gave to her men on the ship. All this build up, and then she takes one look at Theon and turns around and heads home. Kind of lame, in my opinion.


Well, to cut her some slack, it's almost impossible to rescue someone who doesn't want rescued. And she isn't really sure why he wouldn't go. And he's basically just another one of the dogs, so what good would he be as the Greyjoy heir. And she's not all that fond of him anyway.....



heySkippy said:


> I'm at a loss to imagine how anyone thinks Jamie could possibly fight for either side. He's lost the sword hand he spend 30+ years learning how to use. Any competent knight would hand him his ass in short order.


All Jaime has going for him is that neither Tywin or Cercei (maybe) want him dead. If Cercei gets to choose the other knight, she could pick a really old, small crippled one. Or they could fix it. He would basically be saying, "Tyrion and I are a package deal--kill one, kill us both." Not that I think he would do it, but you never know.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> ...No one has mentioned Dany's wild dragons or the fact that Varys does know about them. Somebody needs to look up some books on dragon taming.
> ...


Varys gave them the scoop ont he dragons. Tywin: "No army has fallen to dragons in hundreds of years." Concidently there haven't been any living dragons for hundreds of years.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gweempose said:


> The whole Yara storming the castle sequence was rather anti-climactic, especially after the impassioned speech she gave to her men on the ship. All this build up, and then she takes one look at Theon and turns around and heads home. Kind of lame, in my opinion.


Although from the dialogue, before Ramsay showed up he & his cronies had already slaughtered most of Yara's men (hence the blood all over him). She probably figured, with some justice, that facing a combination of Iron Born-slaughtering men and large nasty dogs in hope of rescuing somebody who had already physically fought back against being rescued was maybe a losing cause...

Plus after being bit, it's urgent that she get checked for rabies. 


MikeAndrews said:


> Varys gave them the scoop ont he dragons. Tywin: "No army has fallen to dragons in hundreds of years." Concidently there haven't been any living dragons for hundreds of years.


There have, actually...I think the last ones died out about a century ago, but they were increasingly stunted and ultimately pathetic.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...There have, actually...I think the last ones died out about a century ago, but they were increasingly stunted and ultimately pathetic.


Oh. They must have been Lannisters or Starks marrying their siblings and cousins.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

May I suggest we not post about differences between the books and the series. Even when it appears it's not a spoiler, we don't know that the scene in question won't come up again in a future episode, and then in hindsight be a spoiler.

There is an entire thread devoted to discussing the difference between the books & the TV series, created for the specific purpose of moving that type of conversation away from the episodic threads.

It serves no purpose in these threads.

Thanks for your consideration.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> She probably figured, with some justice, that facing a combination of Iron Born-slaughtering men and large nasty dogs in hope of rescuing somebody who had already physically fought back against being rescued was maybe a losing cause...


Sounds like cowardly talk to me. That is not how we were led to believe an Iron Born would behave.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Sounds like cowardly talk to me. That is not how we were led to believe an Iron Born would behave.


Yeah, it seemed odd. I fully expected her to knock him unconscious and drag him out.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Sounds like cowardly talk to me. That is not how we were led to believe an Iron Born would behave.


I'm not sure avoiding suicide is cowardly...

One might say throwing away the lives of the rest of the attacking Iron-Born, including the last remaining member of the "royal" offspring, in what had become obviously a fruitless cause, would be the only possible reaction that didn't involve stupidity to the point of mental retardation.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure avoiding suicide is cowardly...


That is cowardly talk. Bold fighters would have won, not died. Only a retard or coward would think they could not win a fight against a shirtless scrawny boy when they are a bad-ass fighter in armor with sword or axe.

"Oh no! It is a scrawny, shirtless boy armed with a key! Run, men, run for your lives!" 

A real Iron Born would have cut off his arm before he even managed to turn the key in the lock. Then killed all the other people, and the dogs, too, for good measure.

Then killed Theon, too, since it is the honorable thing to do for that wretch.



> Everything they've done to him, they've also done to you. As long as they can hurt our Prince with impunity, the word[sic] "Iron Born" means nothing.


So it looks like, thanks to Yara and her band of cowards, the words "Iron Born" now mean nothing.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The last 15 seconds, with a closeup on the reactions of each person as Tyrion asks for trial by combat, and as the Rains of Castamere plays slowly; was absolutely masterfully done.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

astrohip said:


> It serves no purpose in these threads.


Amen to that. This thread has too much <spoiler> <spoiler> <spoiler> in it.



SullyND said:


> I fully expected her to knock him unconscious and drag him out.


If she had expected him to resist and was prepared to deal with him, then I'm sure she would have. She was taken by surprise. My impression was that Yara intended this to be a quick and precise in and out with a minimum of combat. They go in, murder the guards, and liberate Theon without waking up the entire castle, and get out with minimal loss of life.

Instead, Theon resists, the whole damn place is woken up, and many of her men were killed. To continue would have been both suicidal and pointless. The Yara we've been presented with is a smart and capable warrior. She's not going to throw away the lives of herself and her men for no reason. Sometimes a withdrawal is the only viable course of action.

"_Even the best plan rarely survives contact with the enemy_"
- no idea who said this



Cheesesteak said:


> As far as I'm concerned, Ramsay and Theon can disappear from the story and I won't care.


The red witch cursed one more usurper, and my assumption is this whole Theon business is about to finally come around to having a purpose, and that purpose is going to be to eliminate house Greyjoy from the game.

Now if you'd said that the Ironborne, including Yara and Balon could all have been left out of the story, I'd have to agreed. It feels like we were introduced a bunch of characters who served no real purpose. Some other nameless characters could have sacked Winterfell, and the Theon/Ramsey/Yara/Balon screen time could have been used for something more interesting.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> My impression was that Yara intended this to be a quick and precise in and out with a minimum of combat. They go in, murder the guards, and liberate Theon without waking up the entire castle, and get out with minimal loss of life.


More cowardly talk. That is not how Iron Born are supposed to think.

Real Iron Born would have gone in and killed everyone in the castle, most especially Ramsay Snow. No one skins 20 Iron Born, mutilates their Prince, insults them in writing, and then is allowed to live "with minimal loss of life".


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

pmyers said:


> I just don't agree with this. Shae seemed to really like Sansa and I just don't think she would do this to Sansa.


I agree with you. Although Shae is undoubtedly mad at Tyrion I can't believe she would be that mad! So I have to believe she has been coerced to say what she said. Also, as she was saying some of the worst stuff she would glance at Tyrion and her expression seemed to show that she was sorry for what she was saying rather than being glad to say it to get back to him. At least that's what it looked like to me.

Gerry


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> Why not Bronn? He fought for Tyrion in a trial by combat once before and he's certainly a better fighter than Jamie at this point.





ducker said:


> You wouldn't put Bron in his selection pool as well?


Bronn did it the first time because he saw an opportunity for himself to move up in society. Now, he's semi-honorable (what with his knighthood and all), and has a lot more to lose. As someone whose self-interest is always first priority, I don't think he'd be interested.

Plus, there's the chance that Bronn has been bought off. He did, after all, tell Tyrion that Shae was safely aboard the ship to Pentos. Now, he may have made sure that she was, and they got to her afterwards, but it's also very possible that he assisted in getting Shae into Cersei's hands.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Appointing the Prince of Dorian to the panel might have been a mistake for Tywin. He could vote against him at trial or make the trial plan messy.





DUDE_NJX said:


> Doran wants the Mountain dead, so there's an extra incentive to pick him for the fight (and make him lose?)


For the sake of clarity:

Oberyn Martell is a Prince of Dorne. He is the younger brother of Doran Martell, who is the head of House Martell and the ruler of Dorne (although his title is also Prince). Doran Martell has only been mentioned in the show, but never seen. Oberyn Martell is the one who is sitting on the panel.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I don't know how 'iron born are supposed to think'. I do know how the character of Yara was presented to us, that she was a successful leader and capable of strategic thinking rather than a mindless barbarian. That's one of the reasons why she has been running around free, while Theon has been locked in a dungeon for the last season and a half. It's not cowardly to retreat in the face of overwhelming odds, when it's clear that the key objective can no longer be obtained.

It's also clear that she does consider her brother, at least metaphorically, dead. She said as much in the dialog. The creature that remains is now 'Reek'. It's no longer 'Theon'.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> More cowardly talk. That is not how Iron Born are supposed to think.
> 
> Real Iron Born would have gone in and killed everyone in the castle, most especially Ramsay Snow. No one skins 20 Iron Born, mutilates their Prince, insults them in writing, and then is allowed to live "with minimal loss of life".


Just from watching the show (and not reading the books), I didn't know Iron Born were such bad-asses. Theon certainly wasn't a bad ass. Theon was a dumb ass.



smbaker said:


> I don't know how 'iron born are supposed to think'. I do know how the character of Yara was presented to us, that she was a successful leader and capable of strategic thinking rather than a mindless barbarian. That's one of the reasons why she has been running around free, while Theon has been locked in a dungeon for the last season and a half. It's not cowardly to retreat in the face of overwhelming odds, when it's clear that the key objective can no longer be obtained.
> 
> It's also clear that she does consider her brother, at least metaphorically, dead. She said as much in the dialog. The creature that remains is now 'Reek'. It's no longer 'Theon'.


The way it was presented, it seemed like there was time for Yara or one of her men to run a sword through Ramsay before he unlocked the cages. Or after he unlocked the cages they could have killed the dogs one by one. That seems less risky than turning and running from a pack of dogs. (Maybe Yara runs fast and knew the dogs would get one of the big, slow knight-type dudes instead of her.)

But assuming that escape was an option, I can see why she would leave. As has been said, Theon was basically another dog at that point. Though I wish Yara had taken out both Theon and Ramsay to end this storyline.

On another note, so we're heading for a zombies vs dragons showdown, right? Won't they eventually be the only ones left? I'm not sure if I'm looking forward to that or dreading it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although from the dialogue, before Ramsay showed up he & his cronies had already slaughtered most of Yara's men (hence the blood all over him). She probably figured, with some justice, that facing a combination of Iron Born-slaughtering men and large nasty dogs in hope of rescuing somebody who had already physically fought back against being rescued was maybe a losing cause...


Ah, is that what the blood all over his torso was supposed to indicate? I figured that his sex simply got a little rough because that seems the way he would prefer it, being the sadist that he is.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Interesting that nobody has yet mentioned the scene with Stannis and Davos at the Iron Bank in Braavos. Davos did a pretty good job of convincing the bank that Stannis is a good investment so now it looks like Stannis will have more backing against the Lannisters. Will be interesting to see if that ever gets to play out before the other threats materialize (White Walkers/Dany).


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

tivoboyjr said:


> Just from watching the show (and not reading the books), I didn't know Iron Born were such bad-asses. Theon certainly wasn't a bad ass. Theon was a dumb ass.


Theon was raised by the Starks as a hostage, that's why he is such a disappointment.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

tivoboyjr said:


> On another note, so we're heading for a zombies vs dragons showdown, right?


Yeah, but how many years will it take us to get there?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> I don't know how 'iron born are supposed to think'.


You seem to have missed a lot. Not the least of which was Yara's speech this episode.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

zordude said:


> Theon was raised by the Starks as a hostage, that's why he is such a disappointment.


Right. Theon was a big disappointment to his father precisely because Theon was not a bad-ass.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Interesting that nobody has yet mentioned the scene with Stannis and Davos at the Iron Bank in Braavos. Davos did a pretty good job of convincing the bank that Stannis is a good investment so now it looks like Stannis will have more backing against the Lannisters. Will be interesting to see if that ever gets to play out before the other threats materialize (White Walkers/Dany).


I love the Iron Bank stuff. Most stories/shows of this type gloss over (or ignore) financial matters. How do you feed your army? (I've been wondering how Dany does that.)


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

tivoboyjr said:


> Though I wish Yara had taken out both Theon and Ramsay to end this storyline.


That is the least she should have done. Not to end the storyline, I mean for her honor and reputation.

Now she will be known as the coward who ran away from a scrawny shirtless boy armed with a key. After giving a big speech about everything done to Theon was done to them, and if they let Ramsay get away with it then "Iron Born" means nothing.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> Go watch "Oathkeeper" again. Jon definitely knows.


And just to clarify this in case there's still any doubt, the scene is at about the 35 minute mark. It's Jon and Sam in some kind of archive/map room at Castle Black and here's the relevant dialogue:



> Jon: I know how hard it is, Sam, believe me. When you told me about Bran gone beyond the wall, all I could think about was getting my strength back so I could go and find him.
> 
> Sam: I wish I could have convinced him to come back with me. I tried, really I did.
> 
> ...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Appointing the Prince of Dorian to the panel might have been a mistake for Tywin. He could vote against him at trial or make the trial plan messy.


That was true in the past, but you say it as if it's still a possibility. To be clear, there will no longer be any vote. Only a trial by combat.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

john4200 said:


> More cowardly talk. That is not how Iron Born are supposed to think.


True that the Iron Born will want to get their revenge, but they don't necessarily take the direct, straightforward route--they sneak around and attack from the shore and then leave again. Their words are "we do not sow." They don't earn what they have--they don't even fight battles, I'm sure they'll be back, but I didn't think this was out of line for them. And they don't go after worthless things like Reek--just my opinion.



tivoboyjr said:


> On another note, so we're heading for a zombies vs dragons showdown, right? Won't they eventually be the only ones left? I'm not sure if I'm looking forward to that or dreading it.


Better than having the Zombies and the Dragons on the same team.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I thought Ramsey was either at Winterfell or the Dreadfort. Where were they last time when Tywin asked him to go take Moat Cailin? Hadn't they gone to take over what's left of Winterfell?


Tywin? I think you mean Roose Bolton. And I assume they had already gone to Moat Cailin and then back to the Dreadfort. Yara would have had to sail all the way south around dorne and then back north. That's a bit of a trip. It would have taken quite some time, and I got the impression Roose wanted Ramsey to leave for Moat Cailin immediately. I'm just assuming nothing of particular interest actually happened there (though I was expecting it to, since I believe Moat Cailin was, at least at that time, held by the Iron Born)


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## nlsinger (Feb 8, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> I thought the longer Shae talked, the more it sounded like it was scripted by Cercei. If Cercei promised her a life in Bravos or something, I hope she got it in writing.
> 
> .


She was paid. She makes that pretty clear when she responds to Tyrion. Reminded him that she was a whore.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> You seem to have missed a lot.


That seems to happen to me a lot.



john4200 said:


> Not the least of which was Yara's speech this episode.


I thought it was just a pep talk from a shrewd commander, rather than a barbarian drinking her own kool-aid, about to embark on a suicidal slaughtering rampage.



stellie93 said:


> I'm sure they'll be back


I'm not so sure. I'm expecting Reek is about to deal a lethal blow, and they'll wind up about as effective as Rob Stark's decapitated army is.

I'm a little disappointed. I really liked Yara when she was first introduced, but she has received so little screen time that her contribution to the story has seemed marginal. Hopefully her part will grow (Maybe GRRM will kill off more people, making room for her)


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Ah, is that what the blood all over his torso was supposed to indicate? I figured that his sex simply got a little rough because that seems the way he would prefer it, being the sadist that he is.


Thats exactly what I thought. My wife thought it was from him killing people, but to me there were no splatters...just straight lines like cuts or scratches. I suppose they could be swords from kinves or swords, but for him to get hit that many times and none of them to be serious injuries would be the most incredible luck.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

john4200 said:


> More cowardly talk. That is not how Iron Born are supposed to think.


So what was Balon Greyjoy thinking when he surrendered to Robert Baratheon and gave up his only living son to be a ward of Eddard Stark at Winterfell?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Tywin? I think you mean Roose Bolton. And I assume they had already gone to Moat Cailin and then back to the Dreadfort. Yara would have had to sail all the way south around dorne and then back north. That's a bit of a trip. It would have taken quite some time, and I got the impression Roose wanted Ramsey to leave for Moat Cailin immediately. I'm just assuming nothing of particular interest actually happened there (though I was expecting it to, since I believe Moat Cailin was, at least at that time, held by the Iron Born)


Ramsay hasn't gone to Moat Cailin yet. Yara started her trip to The Dreadfort last season.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> So what was Balon Greyjoy thinking when he surrendered to Robert Baratheon and gave up his only living son to be a ward of Eddard Stark at Winterfell?


I assume your question is mostly rhetorical, but to flesh out some additional context...

Pragmatism. He figured he'd wait until the time was right to strike. Pick a time when the Starks are distracted by something else and hit them when their defenses are down. In other words, exactly what he did. These Greyjoys aren't stupid. If they went around throwing away their lives in hopeless situations, there wouldn't be many iron born left.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although from the dialogue, before Ramsay showed up he & his cronies had already slaughtered most of Yara's men (hence the blood all over him)...





DevdogAZ said:


> Ah, is that what the blood all over his torso was supposed to indicate? I figured that his sex simply got a little rough because that seems the way he would prefer it, being the sadist that he is.





LordKronos said:


> Thats exactly what I thought. My wife thought it was from him killing people, but to me there were no splatters...just straight lines like cuts or scratches...


I'm with you guys. Ramsay is a despicable sadist and delights in torture, so I also thought that his blood splattered torso was from the whore.



tivoboyjr said:


> ... it seemed like there was time for Yara or one of her men to run a sword through Ramsay before he unlocked the cages. Or after he unlocked the cages they could have killed the dogs one by one ...


I expected that after Yara slit the boy's throat after being guided to the dungeons, that they would throw his corpse in with the dogs to preoccupy them while she saved her brother.

Clearly, Reek (as Theon) will return to Yara as part of Ramsay's nefarious plans.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

getreal said:


> I'm with you guys. Ramsay is a despicable sadist and delights in torture, so I also thought that his blood splattered torso was from the whore.


To be clear, I wasn't thinking that the blood on Ramsay's torso was the whore's blood. I figured it was his own blood, caused by cuts she made to him while they were having sex, at his direction, because that's what it takes for him to get off.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Ramsay hasn't gone to Moat Cailin yet. Yara started her trip to The Dreadfort last season.


But Locke and Ramsey were sent off at the same time. Locke has made it to the wall, befriended Jon, became a man of the nights watch (though on an accelerated schedule), marched all the way to crasters keep, and gotten himself killed. And you are telling me in all that time, Ramsey hasn't even bothered to make it out of the gate of the Dreadfort?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> I thought it was just a pep talk from a shrewd commander, rather than a barbarian drinking her own kool-aid, about to embark on a suicidal slaughtering rampage.


So you thought she was a liar and a hypocrite, as well as a coward? Since there was no suicide necessary. All she had to do was kill Ramsay, instead of turning tail and running from a scrawny shirtless boy armed with a key.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> So you thought she was a liar and a hypocrite, as well as a coward?


That must be exactly what I thought! What would we do without you?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> But Locke and Ramsey were sent off at the same time. Locke has made it to the wall, befriended Jon, became a man of the nights watch (though on an accelerated schedule), marched all the way to crasters keep, and gotten himself killed. And you are telling me in all that time, Ramsey hasn't even bothered to make it out of the gate of the Dreadfort?


I'm assuming the castle Ramsay wants to take with Reek posing as Theon is Moat Cailin. Maybe all of this should have been seen two episodes ago but there wasn't room until now. This was a pretty short episode compared to the first five.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

So, wait, where's Rob?

His favorite concern was addressed specifically this week...

Brienne is riding from Kings Landing to the wall. She tells Pod, whose a poor rider, that it will take "weeks" to get there.

Rob has been telling us since Season One that at those distances, it should take months to get from Kings Landing to the Wall. (I don't disagree with him, he's just been that voice consistently), and here they tell us it only takes weeks and he's not in here ranting about it?

Rob, man, we miss you!

(Or was that last week and I'm confused? I had friends over and we watched last weeks and then this weeks back to back).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Ereth said:


> So, wait, where's Rob?
> 
> His favorite concern was addressed specifically this week...
> 
> ...


Yes, the scene with Brienne and Pod was in last week's episode.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

SullyND said:


> Yeah, it seemed odd. I fully expected her to knock him unconscious and drag him out.


Me too.



getreal said:


> Clearly, Reek (as Theon) will return to Yara as part of Ramsay's nefarious plans.


Sure looks that way but Yara is an idiot if she falls for it after seeing him in his cage.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> Rob has been telling us since Season One that at those distances, it should take months to get from Kings Landing to the Wall. (I don't disagree with him, he's just been that voice consistently), and here they tell us it only takes weeks and he's not in here ranting about it?


Two people on horseback would get there a lot faster than a caravan of wagons with people walking alongside. Weeks is probably right for Brienne and Pod; months more like it for King Robert's entourage.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Bravvos seemed to be a hop skip and a jump away from Mereen. If Dany could conquer that city, she would have all the money in the world to take over the whole planet, right?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Bravvos seemed to be a hop skip and a jump away from Mereen. If Dany could conquer that city, she would have all the money in the world to take over the whole planet, right?


No, they are far, far away...thousands of miles, I believe. She has a LONG way to go before she's ready to cross over to Westeros.

[edit] Eyeballing a map, it's about the same distance as from the south coast of Westeros to the Wall.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, they are far, far away...thousands of miles, I believe. She has a LONG way to go before she's ready to cross over to Westeros.


I thought Bravoos was on Dany's side of the ocean...

fwiw, I thought the blood on Ramsey was splattered on him and not from wounds. From the earlier sex scene, it seems that he likes to be choked, though!


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I thought Bravoos was on Dany's side of the ocean...


It is, but Essos is way bigger than Westeros. I assume that holds even with the substantially smaller reality in the TV show vs the book.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)




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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Last season when Yara said, "I'm going to get our fastest ship and rescue Theon", I said to the Mrs "This will not end well". Actually it ended better than I thought it would.

BTW I loved what the opening credit designers did with Bravos -- One of those windup mechanical banks, complete with coin spiraling into a hole. Really cute.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought the blood on Ramsay was from killing Yara's men, not from his sex partner or from masochism. This made me wonder how he was so badass when he certainly didn't look badass with his shirt off. 

Ragnar Lothbrok and his Vikings would have made mincemeat out of Ramsay's men, Yara's men and the dogs in about 38 seconds.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Funny how we had the discussion about the Bank in last week's thread, and there was the Bank, front and center. I'm still trying to figure out how the Bank thinks that Stannis is their best bet to pay them back. The Lannisters must be in worse shape than even Tywin is letting on.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Funny how we had the discussion about the Bank in last week's thread, and there was the Bank, front and center. I'm still trying to figure out how the Bank thinks that Stannis is their best bet to pay them back. The Lannisters must be in worse shape than even Tywin is letting on.


I think they are spreading the risk. Pay both sides and you don't care which one wins. It costs a little more but you're more certain of getting paid in the end.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Ereth said:


> So, wait, where's Rob?
> 
> His favorite concern was addressed specifically this week...
> 
> ...


Easy. It takes months for the King to make the trip with his entourage of 225 people and 35 wagons, stopping after 5 hours to build a new Kingly camp and prepare dinner.
A single knight with a clumsy squire can do it faster.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

tiassa said:


> Last season when Yara said, "I'm going to get our fastest ship and rescue Theon", I said to the Mrs "This will not end well". Actually it ended better than I thought it would.


Given how the show the hounds killing that girl in an earlier episode, I was quite surprised to see that Yara made it back to the boat in one piece.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Funny how we had the discussion about the Bank in last week's thread, and there was the Bank, front and center. I'm still trying to figure out how the Bank thinks that Stannis is their best bet to pay them back. The Lannisters must be in worse shape than even Tywin is letting on.


Thanks to this discussion, I got to be a genius because once I saw that they were in Bravos I said that they must be going to the Iron Bank.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> I'm assuming the castle Ramsay wants to take with Reek posing as Theon is Moat Cailin. Maybe all of this should have been seen two episodes ago but there wasn't room until now. This was a pretty short episode compared to the first five.


Oh, ok. That would actually make sense. I was thinking they were talking this episode about sending him back to Pike, but I was wondering how they were planning to get Theon back there without suspicion now that Yara knows all about the fact he's been broken.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> So, wait, where's Rob?


And here I was wondering how in the world you could possibly NOT know that both Robb and Robert were dead. Then I read the rest of your post....


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> And here I was wondering how in the world you could possibly NOT know that both Robb and Robert were dead. Then I read the rest of your post....


Heh! I had the same thought until I realized that it only had one "b".


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I thought the blood on Ramsay was from killing Yara's men, not from his sex partner or from masochism...


I agree. I never thought about them being from anything else other than battle wounds.

I also think that they should have instantly killed those dogs.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Like I said before, the whole Yara scene was just handled badly. It sucks, because I had been looking forward to it for a long time.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I think they are spreading the risk. Pay both sides and you don't care which one wins. It costs a little more but you're more certain of getting paid in the end.


Yeahbut, if the Iron Bank has been lending to The Crown, then any King inherits the debt, Jeffy and Tommen still owe Daddy Robert's debt, and Robert said, "I owe the Lannisters half of a kingdom."


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


>


Funny. Loved the credits.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I predict that the Crown side champion in Tyrion's trial by combat will be Ser Meryn Trant. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion fights himself, with no champion, but maybe Vareys has one up his sleeve.


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Perhaps I misread the meeting, but my take was that the Iron Bank WASN'T giving Stannis the money, even after Davos' speech.

I've gotta say the Ramsay/Yarra thing really irritated me. A battle-tested group of Iron Born soldiers against a shirtless dude? It seems to me that he should have been an easy target, and they could have bound Theon/Reek or knocked him out after dispatching the bastard.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JoeyJoJo said:


> Perhaps I misread the meeting, but my take was that the Iron Bank WASN'T giving Stannis the money, even after Davos' speech.


They must have changed their minds, because later he definitely had the money!


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

JoeyJoJo said:


> I've gotta say the Ramsay/Yarra thing really irritated me. A battle-tested group of Iron Born soldiers against a shirtless dude? It seems to me that he should have been an easy target, and they could have bound Theon/Reek or knocked him out after dispatching the bastard.


And then they were all just going to stand around while he unlocked the dog cages?? Irritating indeed.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I think the reason why the Yara/Ramsay scene stood out so much is because it was a rare miss for the show. The writing is almost always stellar, and this was sloppy at best.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

JoeyJoJo said:


> Perhaps I misread the meeting, but my take was that the Iron Bank WASN'T giving Stannis the money, even after Davos' speech.


Well, I think Davos made a pretty good speech, and then the next thing we see, Davos is giving Salladhor a little case of gold (at least I think it was gold), and tells him there's a chest full more waiting for him back in his house. Presumably that was payment for the gold that was promised to him for helping out in the battle of blackwater, to gain back his support for future battles.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Oh, ok. That would actually make sense. I was thinking they were talking this episode about sending him back to Pike, but I was wondering how they were planning to get Theon back there without suspicion now that Yara knows all about the fact he's been broken.


Moat Cailin is currently held by Ironborn(Ep 2, The Lion and the Rose). Having _Theon_ with him could help Ramsay catch them off guard.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> maybe Vareys has one up his sleeve.


Well, he doesn't have one down his pants!


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Well, I think Davos made a pretty good speech, and then the next thing we see, Davos is giving Salladhor a little case of gold (at least I think it was gold), and tells him there's a chest full more waiting for him back in his house. Presumably that was payment for the gold that was promised to him for helping out in the battle of blackwater, to gain back his support for future battles.


Funny, I remember that scene and never made the connection. I feel stupid.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Two people on horseback would get there a lot faster than a caravan of wagons with people walking alongside. Weeks is probably right for Brienne and Pod; months more like it for King Robert's entourage.


Even if one of them rides as poorly as Podrick?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> Even if one of them rides as poorly as Podrick?


They are not galloping (which is not an efficient way to cover long distances on a horse). Just walking or trotting the horses. The scene with Podrick having problems was exaggerated. If Podrick just let his horse walk, it would be no problem for it to follow the road behind or along side Brienne's horse.

You can bet Podrick will be very sore for a while, but it would not slow them down as long as he does not insist on stopping.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> You can bet Podrick will be very sore for a while, but it would not slow them down as long as he does not insist on stopping.


Which, of course, is the exact opposite of what Pod would do! (Insisting on stopping, that is.)


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

astrohip said:


> There is an entire thread devoted to discussing the difference between the books & the TV series, created for the specific purpose of moving that type of conversation away from the episodic threads.
> 
> It serves no purpose in these threads.


It was my understanding that the other thread was for people who had read all the books, and all events, present and future (relative to the TV show), were open for discussion. If so, then the discussion of deviations from the plot does serve a purpose in these threads for people who don't want spoilers of future events, but don't mind book spoilers.

I don't want to have to dodge discussion of future book events simply to have a question answered about a deviation from the book plot, particularly when it was a discussion in this thread that led to it in the first place.

I guarantee everyone that the spoilers that I discussed will not spoil any future TV show event. It might spoil book events for someone who wants to read the books behind series, but relative to everything else that has been spoiled simply by having watched the show, those spoilers are extremely minor, and I doubt they would affect anyone's enjoyment of the books.



JoeyJoJo said:


> I've gotta say the Ramsay/Yarra thing really irritated me. A battle-tested group of Iron Born soldiers against a shirtless dude? It seems to me that he should have been an easy target, and they could have bound Theon/Reek or knocked him out after dispatching the bastard.


Being shirtless only matters if you get hit. By that point, it was down to Yara and two of her men. If they had stayed and fought, Ramsay could have sent his guards after them to keep them busy while unlocking the dog cages. They might have been able to take out the guards and then the dogs, but some of them could have been injured or killed. By that point, Yara realized it wasn't worth the risk, not just of her or her men dying, but also potentially of Ramsay. After seeing Theon, I think Yara no longer wanted Ramsay dead, but captured so she could do to him what he did to Theon, and more.

She infiltrated the base with a small number of men to be able to extract Theon with as much stealth as possible. But I'm fairly certain she will be back with a larger group for a full on attack with the goal of capturing Ramsay alive. (I suppose since this is Game of Thrones, I should say "plans on being back". )

All that being said, I do think it would have been better if it had been written so that Yara did get away with Theon. He would seem to be recovering back to his normal self, but then it would turn out he was simply "pretending" to be Theon, and he would end up betraying them to Ramsay. That would have been a nice surprise rather than having Ramsay tell us his plan.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Two people on horseback would get there a lot faster than a caravan of wagons with people walking alongside. Weeks is probably right for Brienne and Pod; months more like it for King Robert's entourage.


Did his entourage not take enough time to get to Winterfell? I thought that the growth of the dire wolves indicated that months had passed since they had gotten notice about King Robert's journey.



Anubys said:


> Bravvos seemed to be a hop skip and a jump away from Mereen. If Dany could conquer that city, she would have all the money in the world to take over the whole planet, right?


Braavos is as far northwest in Essos as you can get, while Meereen is southeast. Someone posted a link to a map in another thread that I've found handy. It doesn't contain any spoilers as long as you don't slide the spoiler slider.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> ...All that being said, I do think it would have been better if it had been written so that Yara did get away with Theon. He would seem to be recovering back to his normal self, but then it would turn out he was simply "pretending" to be Theon, and he would end up betraying them to Ramsay. That would have been a nice surprise rather than having Ramsay tell us his plan....


What I dread is having Reek suddenly snap out of it and become Theon again, ala Indy Jones.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Thanks to this discussion, I got to be a genius because once I saw that they were in Bravos I said that they must be going to the Iron Bank.


I thought the same thing and I started to chuckle. Still really didn't clear up who's running the bank, but I'm guessing that they have no real connection to any of the Westeros clans.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> Did his entourage not take enough time to get to Winterfell? I thought that the growth of the dire wolves indicated that months had passed since they had gotten notice about King Robert's journey.


My point has always been that more time passes in this show than many viewers give credit for. Especially in the context of (young) characters aging. I would guess that the show is more or less in real time overall, and maybe even a longer span than that (in which case, the kid actors aren't aging IRL fast enough!). But since they don't spend hours showing the characters trudging from one place to another (and since we don't have the change of seasons to act as a passage-of-time cue), we tend to lose sight of that.

So my "issue" has never been with the speed at which times pass on the show; it's been with the way viewers perceive the passage of time (which of course can be blamed either on the viewers for not noticing or on the writers for not making it more clear).


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Yeahbut, if the Iron Bank has been lending to The Crown, then any King inherits the debt, Jeffy and Tommen still owe Daddy Robert's debt, and Robert said, "I owe the Lannisters half of a kingdom."


Maybe the Iron Bank is going to repo the Kingdom.  Or will there be a bailout. Where's Ser Timothy Geitner when you need him?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I wonder if there's any currency in Westeros? If they just use gold, you can't print more of it when you run low. There's the answer--print up some Westeros Bucks and start paying everyone with them.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder if there's any currency in Westeros? If they just use gold, you can't print more of it when you run low. There's the answer--print up some Westeros Bucks and start paying everyone with them.


Again, where does Tyrion get his allowance so he had the bag of gold when he being held at The Eyrie, if Daddy's gold had run out?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> It was my understanding that the other thread was for people who had read all the books, and all events, present and future (relative to the TV show), were open for discussion. If so, then the discussion of deviations from the plot does serve a purpose in these threads for people who don't want spoilers of future events, but don't mind book spoilers.
> 
> I don't want to have to dodge discussion of future book events simply to have a question answered about a deviation from the book plot, particularly when it was a discussion in this thread that led to it in the first place.
> 
> I guarantee everyone that the spoilers that I discussed will not spoil any future TV show event. It might spoil book events for someone who wants to read the books behind series, but relative to everything else that has been spoiled simply by having watched the show, those spoilers are extremely minor, and I doubt they would affect anyone's enjoyment of the books.


We've had this discussion many times, and it's also happened in many other venues, but what it comes down to is that GoT SHOW threads really need to be kept as show threads without book knowledge entering in to them, just because one person thinks it's not a spoiler, another may disagree, and things that seem obvious to readers are not always obvious to viewers due to the different way they're being handled in the show.

This degenerates into a "but this should be ok, but that isn't ok" arguments and next thing we know posters have lost a limb in trial by combat..

Pretty much the going rule is "no book talk in the show thread" and that's supported by most of the show only folks.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

"The Lannisters always pay their debts." Therein lies their power. What happens when word gets around that they're broke? The Starks were the main characters when the show started. Now the Lannisters, but as Davos pointed out, their future isn't looking too rosy. Tywin's good, but he may not be good enough to pull this off.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Funny how we had the discussion about the Bank in last week's thread, and there was the Bank, front and center. I'm still trying to figure out how the Bank thinks that Stannis is their best bet to pay them back. The Lannisters must be in worse shape than even Tywin is letting on.


I thought Davos spelled it out pretty clearly. Tywin is the only Lannister that really has any power, and he's old. What happens to the Lannister's power when Tywin dies and there's a teenage boy with no experience on the Iron Throne? That's when Davos pointed out the history of the Iron Throne and how it's always changing hands due to wars and coups and usurpers. And there's the ever-present rumor about Tommen's parentage, which would mean he doesn't have the right to the throne in the first place. So if the Iron Bank puts all their trust behind the Lannisters, and then Tywin dies and the Lannisters lose the throne, then the debt will never get repaid.

Meanwhile, as Davos pointed out, Stannis is much younger than Tywin and in the prime of his life. And he has a legitimate blood claim to the crown. If the bank backs Stannis, they can expect Stannis to take the throne, unite the seven kingdoms under his unchallenged claim and then have many years as the ruler to be able to pay them back.

Essentially, the Bank decided to diversify and not to bet on only one horse.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> If so, then the* discussion of deviations from the plot does serve a purpose in these threads* for people who don't want spoilers of future events, but don't mind book spoilers.
> 
> I guarantee everyone that the spoilers that I discussed will not spoil any future TV show event.


What purpose? The TV series is what it is. Whether you've read the books or not, discussing how the series differs from the books serves no purpose. In this thread.

And how can you make that guarantee? Unless you know what the showrunners have planned for us, there is NO WAY you can know what's a spoiler and what's not.

We went thru this last year, and the consensus was no book talk in the TV threads. So we created another thread just for book talk. It worked. No more fights. So again, I respectfully ask you to not discuss book stuff in the TV threads.


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

So the people that are attempting to watch the show and read the matching book after the season ends need their own thread. If there had been such a thread I might not have ended up spoiling a bunch of this season's GoT by reading what I thought was the matching book to the prior season (I now know more than I should for this season's plot lines). I much prefer watching the TV show before reading the book but alas, the seasons don't align with the books the way I had hoped.

This also makes it very hard for me to comment on the TV show since I know more than I should from reading book 3. I suspect some of the stuff in the TV show is coming from book 4 or perhaps is not in any book (but that is just a guess). Is there a web site or thread that documents how the TV show and books overlap without being too spoileriffic?

Edit: never mind. I just read the first page of the other thread that discusses the TV show and the books. Guess I'll just have to wing it and hope I don't ruin my viewing and reading experiences.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

markbox said:


> So the people that are attempting to watch the show and read the matching book after the season ends need their own thread.


Yes!! As long as they leave this thread alone!

No offense to BitByBlit and others, but I haven't read the book yet. I don't really want book details infiltrating the TV threads. They're not of value to people who are only watching the TV series, and there is the potential for revealing spoilers.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

The thing is, as a book reader sometimes you're confused between a scene you read and a scene that has been on the show. The "big spoiler" that brought this all up, number one didn't give anything away really, and number 2 was probably an accident because the poster thought it had been in the show when it hadn't. Give us credit for doing a pretty good job of not spoiling and please forgive us when we make a mistake. Thanks.


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## nlsinger (Feb 8, 2006)

I've read the books but it's been so long I don't remember details. Next book reader who says anything along the lines of "you ain't seen nothing yet" and thinks that isn't a spoiler is getting a visit from Whitewalker quintuplets. Pissed off, sexually frustrated Whitewalker quintuplets.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

nlsinger said:


> I've read the books but it's been so long I don't remember details. Next book reader who says anything along the lines of "you ain't seen nothing yet" and thinks that isn't a spoiler is getting a visit from Whitewalker quintuplets. Pissed off, sexually frustrated Whitewalker quintuplets.


+1. TV show threads are to discuss the TV show, and only the TV show. Keep any mention of the books out of the TV show thread. Why is this so difficult to understand?


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

nlsinger said:


> Pissed off, sexually frustrated Whitewalker quintuplets.


I don't remember that from the book.


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## nlsinger (Feb 8, 2006)

I have connections.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

It's not clear to me if the lannisters or broke, or if they are refering to the crown being broke (like the government being broke or in debt). Maybe the Lannister family still has money but not the kingdom.

Hopefully that makes sense. Kind of like this, Obama can be filthy rich, but the US can be broke or in heavy debt.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

3D said:


> Funny. Loved the credits.


:up:


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> It's not clear to me if the lannisters or broke, or if they are refering to the crown being broke (like the government being broke or in debt). Maybe the Lannister family still has money but not the kingdom.
> 
> Hopefully that makes sense. Kind of like this, Obama can be filthy rich, but the US can be broke or in heavy debt.


In the TV show, there is no doubt whatsoever...the source of the Lannisters' wealth (their gold mines) has run dry. They are left with cash on hand, which they seem to have spent on their political machinations.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

To some extent, it doesn't matter. Much of the Lannister wealth was lent to the Crown. Who is both (a) near bankrupt as well and (b) mostly made of Lannisters. Lending yourself money does little good.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

astrohip said:


> What purpose?


The purpose of being able to discuss the current events of the TV show as they happened in the book without being spoiled by discussion of future events. Currently we have threads for people who have seen all released episodes of the TV show and threads for people who have read all released books. I am not participating in the book threads because I don't want to know about future events that might happen in the TV show, so this was the natural place for me to ask my question about the book.

Next time I will create a new thread, but I didn't realize that most people wanted that.



astrohip said:


> And how can you make that guarantee? Unless you know what the showrunners have planned for us, there is NO WAY you can know what's a spoiler and what's not.


I can't address this specifically without giving something away about the spoilers in question, but since we all know about the Jon knowing about Bran spoiler, I'll try explaining in terms of that.

Knowing that Jon didn't know about Sam meeting Bran in the books doesn't spoil anything because in the TV show something different happened. Either Sam told Jon about Bran or he didn't. Now that the paths have diverged, knowing what happened in the books can't spoil anything on the TV show.

And the spoilers in question are even less of spoilers than that because...



Spoiler



...they are about things that didn't happen and people who didn't exist in the books. So there isn't even a different path from which to compare the books.


(I spoiled the above because technically it is a book spoiler. But there are no details about any events. All I did was talk in general terms about the nature of the spoilers. And again, I guarantee nothing is revealed about future TV show events.)



hummingbird_206 said:


> Keep any mention of the books out of the TV show thread. Why is this so difficult to understand?


It's not difficult to understand; it's just not the convention in most threads. The reason we have both spoiler tags and spoiler threads is so that we can have longer discussions without needing spoiler tags, but can still interject spoilers for shorter side notes that don't warrant their own thread.

I wasn't aware that there was a big argument regarding the discussion of book knowledge in the TV threads, and so assumed that the book thread was created for the benefit of book readers not having to have long discussions in spoiler tags rather than to get all book discussion of any nature out of the TV threads.

I personally have found it useful to be able to ask book readers pointed questions about supplementary information that will most likely only be found in the books, such as the history of how Dorne defended against Aegon the Conqueror, which so far has only be referenced by a one-liner from Tywin in the TV show. While I could Google those answers myself, doing so runs the risk of me running across other answers that I am trying to avoid.

And again, I don't mind creating a new thread for the book discussion related to a particular episode so that we can have these sorts of conversations. I just didn't realize such discussions, even in spoiler tags, were not wanted in the main TV threads.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> It's not difficult to understand; *it's just not the convention in most threads. The reason we have both spoiler tags and spoiler threads is so that we can have longer discussions without needing spoiler tags,* but can still interject spoilers for shorter side notes that don't warrant their own thread.
> 
> I wasn't aware that there was a big argument regarding the discussion of book knowledge in the TV threads, and so assumed that the book thread was created for the benefit of book readers not having to have long discussions in spoiler tags rather than to get all book discussion of any nature out of the TV threads.


Normally that's the case, but in GoT threads both here, and comment threads in many many blogs have proven it's unsustainable, thus GoT pretty much web-wide has now made a "no book talk" in TV show threads mandatory.

GoT is treated very differently in discussions because of this anomalous problem.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> I guarantee everyone that the spoilers that I discussed will not spoil any future TV show event.


I'm not being a jerk, I'm simply pointing out where I disagree with you:

1. This is a work of fiction. The writers can do anything they please within the frame of the story. You cannot make that guarantee. You may be 99% sure, but there is usually a way around what you are guaranteeing. Yes. I do agree that it is impossible for the writers to get around the particular thing you discussed. But that's not the point (see point 2 )

2. To put it simply: we don't want you (or anybody) to make that call for us. Regardless of how sure you are, we (as a group) have decided and asked everyone to abide by the simple rule of no book discussion is any way, shape, or form in these threads. We beg everyone here to respect that decision.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> Normally that's the case, but in GoT threads both here, and comment threads in many many blogs have proven it's unsustainable, thus GoT pretty much web-wide has now made a "no book talk" in TV show threads mandatory.
> 
> GoT is treated very differently in discussions because of this anomalous problem.


Part of the problem is due to the way the producers have been mixing up story lines from multiple books. In previous seasons, the Book/TV Show allowed for talk only through the corresponding book. But since late last season, the TV show has added elements from later books and the Book/Show thread now encompasses all books. I, personally, have only read through Book 3 (which I think is actually very common.)

I tend to stay out of the Show threads as I know what is likely to happen. However, I am now staying out the Book/TV Show thread because I don't want to accidently be spoiled from the later books.

That being said, I think your explanation is correct and the way it should be.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I'm not being a jerk, I'm simply pointing out where I disagree with you:
> 
> 1. This is a work of fiction. The writers can do anything they please within the frame of the story. You cannot make that guarantee. You may be 99% sure, but there is usually a way around what you are guaranteeing. Yes. I do agree that it is impossible for the writers to get around the particular thing you discussed. But that's not the point (see point 2 )
> 
> 2. To put it simply: we don't want you (or anybody) to make that call for us. Regardless of how sure you are, we (as a group) have decided and asked everyone to abide by the simple rule of no book discussion is any way, shape, or form in these threads. We beg everyone here to respect that decision.


Honestly, just like the guy above posted, it's NOT a judgement call. The fact that Jon never knows Bran is alive in the books cannot possibly in any way spoil anything in the future. Things that happen in the series, but not the books typically are just flair that the writers put in. Book readers are not so stupid as to put something like "Wait till you see the next wedding!!!!" (in reference to Joffery's wedding after the red wedding). I wouldn't tease or spoil anything like that for you. In fact, even my discussions of diversions from the books are in spoilers.

The spoiler tag is there for a reason. If you don't want to see the discussion about diversions, then don't click it. If you get mailed updates that don't include the spoiler tag, then don't get mailed updates. Just because I read the book and know some plot points shouldn't limit my discussion of an episode as long as what is posted doesn't spoil anything in the future.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Honestly, just like the guy above posted, it's NOT a judgement call. The fact that Jon never knows Bran is alive in the books cannot possibly in any way spoil anything in the future. Things that happen in the series, but not the books typically are just flair that the writers put in. Book readers are not so stupid as to put something like "Wait till you see the next wedding!!!!" (in reference to Joffery's wedding after the red wedding). I wouldn't tease or spoil anything like that for you. In fact, even my discussions of diversions from the books are in spoilers.
> 
> The spoiler tag is there for a reason. If you don't want to see the discussion about diversions, then don't click it. If you get mailed updates that don't include the spoiler tag, then don't get mailed updates. Just because I read the book and know some plot points shouldn't limit my discussion of an episode as long as what is posted doesn't spoil anything in the future.


I don't think you read my post (which you quote) . You have no idea what the writers will do in the future. I don't want you to decide for me. Since there is another thread to discuss these things, why do it here where it is not welcome?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

If Game of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook - Season 4, Episode 6

http://happyplace.someecards.com/20...lace-entirely-on-facebook-season-4-episode-6/


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

can we start a new thread to talk about book spoilers vs tv thread?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I would like to point out that the Ironborn are not only tough but also very polite. Witness Yara thanking her hostage just before she cut his throat!


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Along the same lines as the Law & Order Game of Thrones from above, here's Super Mario Game of Thrones (gets old after a few minutes, but definitely worth a quick look).

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFSiiiFkvhM[/media]


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## spear (Oct 11, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Honestly, just like the guy above posted, it's NOT a judgement call. The fact that Jon never knows Bran is alive in the books cannot possibly in any way spoil anything in the future. [...]


I'm sorry, but how is that *not* a spoiler? With the way you've phrased it, haven't you just implied that Bran and Jon *will never* meet again?


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## nlsinger (Feb 8, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Being a bookreader, I can say without a doubt and without spoiling anything, that you all are in for a fun few episodes.
> 
> They have deviated from the books significantly this season, but the overall story is still there.


This is an example what I am talking about. Just don't say anything at all. Pretend you have never read the books when you comment in this thread. Please.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

spear said:


> I'm sorry, but how is that *not* a spoiler? With the way you've phrased it, haven't you just implied that Bran and Jon *will never* meet again?


quit trying to read things into what I said. It's clear that it was in reference to the show where Jon learns of bran from Sam. The point was that Sam doesn't tell him in the book.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

nlsinger said:


> This is an example what I am talking about. Just don't say anything at all. Pretend you have never read the books when you comment in this thread. Please.


i won't do it again because evidently I'm an ass that's gloating over all of you. It was meant as a talking point with no malice. I'm tired of people deciding how others should post even when they aren't breaking any rules. Ignore me if you want.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I think some people just don't care what happens in the books and don't want to know.
They want to just enjoy the show for the show. I can understand that.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

DavidTigerFan said:


> i won't do it again because evidently I'm an ass that's gloating over all of you. It was meant as a talking point with no malice. I'm tired of people deciding how others should post even when they aren't breaking any rules. Ignore me if you want.


Actually, yes, you are breaking the rules. This is the TV Show Talk forum. Threads are supposed to be about the TV show and posts limited to only the specific subject of the thread. All info from outside the TV show itself is considered a spoiler and should be, at the least, placed in spoiler tags. And while it is not a forum rule, the majority of the group has asked that anything pertaining to the books be kept out of the TV show threads entirely for GoT. If you want to talk the books, in any way, then just create a thread for it.

ETA: And it's not just you DTF, though I'm sure you're feeling very much the brunt of it right now. There were clear book spoilers in this thread that have since been removed.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

hummingbird_206 said:


> Actually, yes, you are breaking the rules. This is the TV Show Talk forum. Threads are supposed to be about the TV show and posts limited to only the specific subject of the thread. All info from outside the TV show itself is considered a spoiler and should be, at the least, placed in spoiler tags. And while it is not a forum rule, the majority of the group has asked that anything pertaining to the books be kept out of the TV show threads entirely for GoT. If you want to talk the books, in any way, then just create a thread for it.


feel free to report me


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

DavidTigerFan said:


> feel free to report me


I don't want to have to report you. I don't enjoy reporting anyone. Especially after I've already seen the spoiler it doesn't do 'me' any good. I would just like you and others to respect that these are threads to discuss the TV show and any book discussion is out of place and, yes, against the rules.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I completely understand not wanting any book talk in the open, but if a non-book reader asks a book question, what's wrong with answering in spoiler tags? It happens in Walking Dead threads and it's not against the rules.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> I completely understand not wanting any book talk in the open, but if a non-book reader asks a book question, what's wrong with answering in spoiler tags? It happens in Walking Dead threads and it's not against the rules.


I see no problem with book questions in spoiler tags, but it gets annoying when there's a long back-and-forth with spoiler tags.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Is it me, but it seems we have these book vs. TV arguments at least 3 to 4 times each season 

Can we get back to discussing the TV show?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

allan said:


> I see no problem with book questions in spoiler tags, but it gets annoying when there's a long back-and-forth with spoiler tags.


you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence.


Not really. There's a difference between asking a quick question and getting an answer in a spoiler tag, and having a whole page of book talk in spoiler tags.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Is it me, but it seems we have these book vs. TV arguments at least 3 to 4 times each season
> 
> Can we get back to discussing the TV show?


Well, you know how it is when somebody on the internet is wrong...

So, back to the TV show. I found it interesting that after Tommen recused himself that Tywin sat on the throne. Tywin so obviously sees himself as King.

And up thread someone mentioned how the opening sequence showed the bank with a coin rolling. I've pretty much been ignoring the opening sequence for a long time now. Does it change based on what location is in each episode?


----------



## nlsinger (Feb 8, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> feel free to report me


The Whitewalkers have been dispatched but they are refusing to leave the compound because it's too damn hot.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

hummingbird_206 said:


> So, back to the TV show. I found it interesting that after Tommen recused himself that Tywin sat on the throne. Tywin so obviously sees himself as King.


I think Tywin has thought this for a LONG time, maybe even during Robert Barathian's reign. Definitely during Joffrey's. Maybe since the King is too young, the Hand gets to sit on the throne? I can't recall for sure, but during S1 didn't Ned Stark sit on the throne while doing the King's business?



> And up thread someone mentioned how the opening sequence showed the bank with a coin rolling. I've pretty much been ignoring the opening sequence for a long time now. Does it change based on what location is in each episode?


Yes. The opening sequence changes every week, usually in conjunction to the location that will be shown that week.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I think Tywin has thought this for a LONG time, maybe even during Robert Barathian's reign. Definitely during Joffrey's. Maybe since the King is too young, the Hand gets to sit on the throne? I can't recall for sure, but during S1 didn't Ned Stark sit on the throne while doing the King's business?


I don't remember Ned sitting on the throne, but entirely possible he did. I just noticed it now because Tywin is so obviously acting as the king behind the scenes as well as out in public.



Steveknj said:


> Yes. The opening sequence changes every week, usually in conjunction to the location that will be shown that week.


I've totally missed that. Guess I'll have to start paying closer attention to the opening sequence!


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

hummingbird_206 said:


> I don't remember Ned sitting on the throne, but entirely possible he did. I just noticed it now because Tywin is so obviously acting as the king behind the scenes as well as out in public.


I think he did, but I wouldn't swear to it. But I'm sure he never enjoyed it, as Tywin obviously does.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Uhmmm....


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Yes. The opening sequence changes every week, usually in conjunction to the location that will be shown that week.


I would amend that to say it used to do that for the first 3 seasons but it did not change this season until this last episode.

We always got king's Landing, Winterfell, and the Wall. The other places changed depending on where we were going in the episode. This was not true in episodes 1-5 of season 4.

No matter what, you should always watch the opening! the music is outstanding and the graphics are excellent. I never get tired of it


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

allan said:


> I think he did, but I wouldn't swear to it. But I'm sure he never enjoyed it, as Tywin obviously does.


I think he did as well. There was a scene in the throne room when he ordered the Mountain to be hunted down and sent people to go get him. I believe he sat on the throne then.


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## 6079 Smith W (Oct 2, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I think he did as well. There was a scene in the throne room when he ordered the Mountain to be hunted down and sent people to go get him. I believe he sat on the throne then.


This is correct. He sent Lord Beric Dondarrion to hunt down the Mountain. Dondarrion is the guy that has been killed several times, including one time that we saw at the hands of the Hound, and brought back to life by Thoros of Myr.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

nlsinger said:


> The Whitewalkers have been dispatched but they are refusing to leave the compound because it's too damn hot.


lol. That's funny.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Funny since it's not the way it's in the books?


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

ducker said:


> Is the fighter for the crown by default the captain of the king's guard? or will it be whoever Tywin appoints?
> 
> likewise can Tyrion (attempt) to select his champion? Or is it only those that volunteer for him? (I'm, go back to that time that Tyrion invoked at The Vale, where he had no one really to stand for him, so he did accept any volunteer)


Cersei is the accuser .. she chooses her champion. Her choice a year ago would have been Jamie, but now that she despises him, that's unlikely.

Other choices are someone else of the Kingsguard, although the impression one gets is that they all suck.

The logical choice is the Mountain. he's a loyal Lannister man, apparently without any morals, and of course is a fearsome warrior.

Tyrion chooses his champion, although they can I would think they can decline.

His logical choice is Bronn, but I am not sure Bronn would accept in this case, and I'm not sure I like his odds against the Mountain. The Mountain probably knows all the tricks Bronn knows and then some.

Jamie is out for physical reasons. He can barely swing a sword so far.

Tyrion doesn't have many other friends at court ... probably none at all at this point.

If nobody wishes to stand for Tyrion, I guess the trial reverts back to judgment by the three judges.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

MarkL said:


> Cersei is the accuser .. she chooses her champion. Her choice a year ago would have been Jamie, but now that she despises him, that's unlikely.
> 
> Other choices are someone else of the Kingsguard, although the impression one gets is that they all suck.
> 
> ...


I saw what you did there and approve of your edit.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Why can't a man fight for himself?


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Kablemodem said:


> Why can't a man fight for himself?


He can. But what's your point? You think Tyrion would want to fight for himself?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Kablemodem said:


> Why can't a man fight for himself?


One can, but it's not the best idea to fight someone twice your size (literally, in Tyrion's case). Or, if Cersi chooses the Mountain as her champion, 4-5 times his size!


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

MarkL said:


> If nobody wishes to stand for Tyrion, I guess the trial reverts back to judgment by the three judges.


I would think that if one chooses trial by combat and they can't get anyone to fight for them, they are stuck fighting for themselves. It's a shame Brienne isn't still around. Jaime probably could have convinced her to fight for his brother.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Since this isn't real life, I think by the time Tyrion needs a champion that Jamie will be quite proficient with his left hand and able to fight for Tyrion. After all, Jamie has been practicing with Bronn. Shouldn't take him too long to get back to being the best swordsman in the realm.

eta: Jaime, not Jamie!


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

gossamer88 said:


> This episode shoulda been titled "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps the title indicates a love interest.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

I am a little confused about the trial scene. At what point in this video did he request trial by combat?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

:up:


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

allan said:


> One can, but it's not the best idea to fight someone twice your size (literally, in Tyrion's case). Or, if Cersi chooses the Mountain as her champion, 4-5 times his size!


You didn't see Yoda in Attack of the Clones? 

-smak-


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MarkL said:


> Cersei is the accuser .. she chooses her champion. Her choice a year ago would have been Jamie, but now that she despises him, that's unlikely.
> 
> Other choices are someone else of the Kingsguard, although the impression one gets is that they all suck.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why you think the King's guards are not good. I assume they are picked especially for how good they are! Jaime was certainly acclaimed to be the best in all the lands...

Man...I like what you're saying about Cersei choosing the Mountain. If she does, I bet Oberyn jumps at the chance to be Tyrion's champion!

That would be perfect. perfect perfect perfect.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I'm not sure why you think the King's guards are not good. I assume they are picked especially for how good they are! Jaime was certainly acclaimed to be the best in all the lands...


Well, the only one I know beside Jamie is Meryn Trant, and the Hound doesn't seem to think too highly of him (recall his conversation with Arya about him killing Syrio Forel).



> Man...I like what you're saying about Cersei choosing the Mountain. If she does, I bet Oberyn jumps at the chance to be Tyrion's champion!
> 
> That would be perfect. perfect perfect perfect.


And remember, not only does Oberyn really want to get at him, but Tywin promised him the opportunity if he sat as a judge. I'm thinking there's going to be some objection to a judge being a champion but Tywin will allow it in the end anyway because of that promise.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

To be fair, does The Hound think much of ANYONE's fighting abilities?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MarkL said:


> Cersei is the accuser .. she chooses her champion. Her choice a year ago would have been Jamie, but now that she despises him, that's unlikely.
> 
> Other choices are someone else of the Kingsguard, although the impression one gets is that they all suck.
> 
> ...


Here's a thought on who Cersei picks. How about Loras? Isn't he a knight as well? (I'm trying to recall, I think he is). If he wins, then he gets rid of Tyrion who she despises. If he LOSES, then he's dead and she gets out of marrying him, which she doesn't want to do.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Here's a thought on who Cersei picks. How about Loras? Isn't he a knight as well? (I'm trying to recall, I think he is). If he wins, then he gets rid of Tyrion who she despises. If he LOSES, then he's dead and she gets out of marrying him, which she doesn't want to do.


Why would Loras agree? he is rich and a Lord. Why would he take a chance to die for no reward?


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Why would Loras agree? he is rich and a Lord. Why would he take a chance to die for no reward?


Less chance of Cersei killing him in his bed while he slept, perhaps?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ClutchBrake said:


> Less chance of Cersei killing him in his bed while he slept, perhaps?


What are the odds that either of them would ever let Cersei in Loras's bed in the first place?


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What are the odds that either of them would ever let Cersei in Loras's bed in the first place?


That's why I said HIS bed and not THEIR bed!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Why would Loras agree? he is rich and a Lord. Why would he take a chance to die for no reward?


Chivalry? This IS pseudo medieval times. His intended was done wrong, so it's his duty to defend her honor.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Chivalry? This IS pseudo medieval times. His intended was done wrong, so it's his duty to defend her honor.


George Martin read this post and just killed himself.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> George Martin read this post and just killed himself.


LOL. Well didn't Loras (I think it was Loras) give Sansa (maybe not Sansa) a rose when they had the "games" during season one? It would fit in with this, wouldn't it?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> LOL. Well didn't Loras (I think it was Loras) give Sansa (maybe not Sansa) a rose when they had the "games" during season one? It would fit in with this, wouldn't it?


Until you realized later on that he did this after every duel and had zero recollection of Sansa later on when she mentioned it to him. It was part of the show for him.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Until you realized later on that he did this after every duel and had zero recollection of Sansa later on when she mentioned it to him. It was part of the show for him.


Well part of that is the "team" Loras plays for.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Why would Loras agree? he is rich and a Lord. Why would he take a chance to die for no reward?


He's not a lord until his daddy dies. I think his daddy is Mace Tyrell, the 3rd member of the jury.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I think Shae was forced into testifying against Tyrion and if you stripped her down, she would have the bruises to show for it. Maybe now she understands why Tyrion is scared of his father. At least I hope that's how it went down. Shae has been shown to be pretty smart up until now. She outright lied in her testimony and she should know that the penalty for a guilty verdict would be death. If she's doing it on her own, it's really petty considering all Tyrion has done for her.

Tywin thought he had everything under control. The discussion with Jaime is exactly what he wanted. To get Tyrion out of the way (but not dead) and get his true heir back. I'm sure he would have suggested it to Jaime if Jaime hadn't brought it up first. The entire trial was specifically to create that scenario. Otherwise, he would have just pardoned Tyrion. He never intended to kill him just as he never intended Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock. Tyrion realized it, too, and just gave the finger to dear old dad. He's finally fed up with being pushed around. 

Based on the scene at the Eerie, I would expect that Tywin gets to pick the champion for the crown and Tyrion picks his own. If you recall, Tyrion picked Jaime as his champion at the Eerie but they refused to send for him and wait. That's why he wound up asking for volunteers. This ought to be interesting!

I thought the entire Dreadfort scene was crappy. The Iron Men are scared of a shirtless kid? Yes, he's crazy but still. And them just standing there watching while he unlocks the dog cage? Poor writing in that scene.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I thought the entire Dreadfort scene was crappy. The Iron Men are scared of a shirtless kid? Yes, he's crazy but still. And them just standing there watching while he unlocks the dog cage? Poor writing in that scene.


I suspect it's less poor writing than a disconnect between the writing and the staging...


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

Fellas, take this from a woman. Shae testified against Tyrion because she hated him for sending her away and seemingly picking Sansa over her! By trying to keep her safe, Tyrion inadvertantly created another enemy and Shae was perfectly willing to be a patsy for Cersei/Tywin. 

Shae has time and again asked Tyrion if he didn't secretly prefer Sansa because of her youth and beauty. Even though Tyrion categorically denied it(and meant it), deep down Shae could not convince herself that he would love a "whore" over a lady. Sending her away was(to her mind) proof of that.

When Tyrion started turning Shae's "favors" down, Shae thought it was because he didn't love her anymore, not because Tyrion feared for Shae's safety. Tywin had told Tyrion that he would kill her and Tywin had a track record for not making idle threats. Varys reminded Tyrion as much earlier in the season.

I think Bron did see Shae safely on the ship just as he said he did. I don't know when she got off the boat. I suspect the ship was intercepted after Joffrey's death and Shae brought back, but that's just my guess. Varys knew she was on the ship


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

grey ghost said:


> Fellas, take this from a woman. Shae testified against Tyrion because she hated him for sending her away and seemingly picking Sansa over her! By trying to keep her safe, Tyrion inadvertantly created another enemy and Shae was perfectly willing to be a patsy for Cersei/Tywin.
> 
> Shae has time and again asked Tyrion if he didn't secretly prefer Sansa because of her youth and beauty. Even though Tyrion categorically denied it(and meant it), deep down Shae could not convince herself that he would love a "whore" over a lady. Sending her away was(to her mind) proof of that.
> 
> ...


Maybe this is true, I don't know. But _IF_ it's true, then Shea is a much bigger idiot than we've been led to believe. Perhaps while everything seemed to her to be all hunky-dory, she could not completely believe she and Tyrion were as deeply in danger as he claimed they were. But as soon as his predicament was made known to her and she was either asked or forced to testify against him, she should have realized it was all true. I personally believe she was coerced, but I guess only time will tell.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dawghows said:


> Maybe this is true, I don't know. But _IF_ it's true, then Shea is a much bigger idiot than we've been led to believe. Perhaps while everything seemed to her to be all hunky-dory, she could not completely believe she and Tyrion were as deeply in danger as he claimed they were. But as soon as his predicament was made known to her and she was either asked or forced to testify against him, she should have realized it was all true. I personally believe she was coerced, but I guess only time will tell.


I'm with Grey. She's exactly as big an idiot as she's always seemed. She is put out because Tyrion hasn't lived up to her (absurd) standards of what a noble boyfriend should be like; she has been utterly clueless to the danger she and Tyrion have been in because of his feelings for her; and she's out for revenge for his supposed slights against her (by not treating her exactly as she wishes to be treated, regardless of the consequences to herself and to Tyrion).

He was trying to protect her. But she didn't want to be protected; she wanted to be pampered. And his failure to do so is in her eyes an unforgivable insult.

So...idiot. Much very big idiot.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Drogon has gotten really big and Varys indicated that it had been years since the dragons were born.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

BTW I heard that Ramsay Snow is going to write a memoir, it will be called "50 Shades of Greyjoy"


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tiassa said:


> BTW I heard that Ramsay Snow is going to write a memoir, it will be called "50 Shades of Greyjoy"


Shouldn't that be "50 Shaves by Greyjoy?"


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> Tywin thought he had everything under control. The discussion with Jaime is exactly what he wanted. To get Tyrion out of the way (but not dead) and get his true heir back.


No doubt this is what Tywin wanted, but I think you give him too much credit if you think he would have pardoned him without Jaime's deal. He's been embarrassed and ashamed of Tyrion since the day he was born, and he'd love to be rid of him, IMO. Very few people see Tyrion as we do--Varys, Bronn, Jaime, Jon Snow....that's about it.

It's funny that the lie Shae told about he and Sansa planning the murder is really the only thing I can think of that was a lie in all that testimony. And it's the only thing that sets him apart from all the other people who hated and feared Joffrey.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> No doubt this is what Tywin wanted, but I think you give him too much credit if you think he would have pardoned him without Jaime's deal. He's been embarrassed and ashamed of Tyrion since the day he was born, and he'd love to be rid of him, IMO. Very few people see Tyrion as we do--Varys, Bronn, Jaime, Jon Snow....that's about it.
> 
> It's funny that the lie Shae told about he and Sansa planning the murder is really the only thing I can think of that was a lie in all that testimony. And it's the only thing that sets him apart from all the other people who hated and feared Joffrey.


I think you're forgetting one of the earlier conversations between Tyrion and Tywin where Tywin recounted how his instinct was to kill Tyrion the moment he was born but he could not kill one of his own, regardless of how he was.

So I don't think Tywin was going to execute Tyrion. I think the Black was always the plan for him.

as for Shae. She was always an idiot. I'm not surprised at all by her idiocy.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

But does Tywin consider him being found guilty in a "court of law" and sentenced and then that sentence carried out by the Crown as him killing his son?


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

stellie93 said:


> But does Tywin consider him being found guilty in a "court of law" and sentenced and then that sentence carried out by the Crown as him killing his son?


Yes, if he believes that Tirion is innocent and that the trial is a sham.

In that vein, I'm still not convinced that Tywin had no part in Goffery's murder. If he wasn't an active conspirator in the plot, I think he had some foreknowledge of it and did nothing to stop it.


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

I've not read the books, but from her reactions, I think that Lady Olenna was in the middle of the plot to poison Joffrey.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

grey ghost said:


> I've not read the books, but from her reactions, I think that Lady Olenna was in the middle of the plot to poison Joffrey.


I think so too, because she said so


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

zordude said:


> I think so too, because she said so


Olenna waltzed all around it and said Margery was well rid of him, but I don't recall she actually stated it as fact. Perhaps I missed it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

grey ghost said:


> Olenna waltzed all around it and said Margery was well rid of him, but I don't recall she actually stated it as fact. Perhaps I missed it.


This show is better written than to have her explicitly say she did it. Olenna definitely told Margaery that she did it, just without actually saying so.

And her "admission" to Margaery was intercut with Baelish saying that he had conspired with his new friends. So we basically know that Baelish and Olenna, and probably others, conspired together to kill Joffrey.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Earlier today I watched Game of Thrones Season 4: Anatomy of a Scene - Tyrion's Trial (HBO). At the 3:52 mark the actress who portrays Shae has a reveal that was not in the episode. Maybe the reveal is in a future episode. Could be a spoiler...who knows.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

gossamer88 said:


> Earlier today I watched Game of Thrones Season 4: Anatomy of a Scene - Tyrion's Trial (HBO). At the 3:52 mark the actress who portrays Shae has a reveal that was not in the episode. Maybe the reveal is in a future episode. Could be a spoiler...who knows.


Not a spoiler. The way she says it is that she, as the actress, interprets the situation that way.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

That was an interesting clip. It's funny--it seemed like Shae had more accent as herself than in the show. 

Tywin's interpretation of his character was interesting too.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

john4200 said:


> I thought the same. It seems the Iron Born are not so bad-ass after all, if they can be beaten into retreat, wearing armor mind you, by a shirtless scrawny boy. And even once he released the hounds, they were right there, so it is not like the hounds would come as a pack. One or two dogs at a time are not such a problem for someone in armor with a sword or axe who knows how to use it.
> 
> Either the Iron Born are actually wimps, or the show writers really botched that scene (since it is not in the books).


Yeah, that scene bothered me. Yes the Iron Born are trapped. But they're in a relatively narrow space with enough people to form a shield wall across it.

Excellent, a Roman Legion or Greek Phalanx who's flanks can't be turned against a bunch of unarmored fighters. Form shield wall, advance, and begin stabbing. But whatever you do _don't_, as they did in the show, devolve into an unordered melee which largely negates the benefits of the confined quarters and of the shields you're each carrying.

(Oh, and the shield wall would have been fairly effective against the dogs as well. They can't get around you and the shields arrayed next to each other keep the dogs off long enough to stab any who try to jump at the Iron Born. Now in an open courtyard without enough men to form a square the dogs could have been a more dangerous threat)

Now I get that the writers didn't want that result, but they should have altered the scenario (surroundings, equipment, numbers) so that it didn't take blatant tactical stupidity to achieve the desired result.

Or let the Iron Born beat the first few guards who showed up (Ramsay escaping) and then let Theon's sister announced that despite winning that first fight they're still horribly outnumbered and she order them to retreat before the rest of the castle can get enough people and equipment organized to overwhelm them)


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> Here's a thought on who Cersei picks. How about Loras? Isn't he a knight as well? (I'm trying to recall, I think he is). If he wins, then he gets rid of Tyrion who she despises. If he LOSES, then he's dead and she gets out of marrying him, which she doesn't want to do.


She's not going to take the chance of Tyrion (or his champion) winning somehow. The surest bet is the Mountain. She'll marry Loras if she has to, but most likely is thinking of a dozen other ways to get out of that. Killing Tyrion is priority #1 ... all other priorities rescinded. (Bonus points if you can name that reference!)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MarkL said:


> She's not going to take the chance of Tyrion (or his champion) winning somehow. The surest bet is the Mountain. She'll marry Loras if she has to, but most likely is thinking of a dozen other ways to get out of that. Killing Tyrion is priority #1 ... all other priorities rescinded. (Bonus points if you can name that reference!)


Ah, just nuke him from space.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Ah, just nuke him from space.


Can't. He stands under the radar.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Ah, just nuke him from space.


It's the only way to be sure.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Ah, just nuke him from space orbit.


FYP


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