# Free trial of HR20?



## DAVIDGR (Oct 26, 2002)

I'm a long time DTV subscriber (Premier Package), now using an HR10-250 HDDVR. I know that I need a newer DVR/dish to receive all HD channels. My wife wants to switch to FIOS since we can still use a Tivo while I'd like to stay with DTV. Has anyone been able to get a free trial of the HR20/21 without extending their commitment?

If I can convince my wife that the HR20 or 21 is okay, I'd be happy to extend my commitment for the normal 2 years. I don't want to pay for the DVR and new dish, be stuck with a contract extension and then hate it (especially when my neighbors are happy using FIOS with an HD Tivo!)

Thanks.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

No free trial, sorry.

And even if you had it for a few days that's probably not enough time to figure out if you like it (or if it's good enough). Took me about a month to get used to it after 6 years of Tivo.

My wife doesn't really care, so long as it records CSI for her she's happy.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

Not gonna happen. A big bone of contention round these parts as a matter of fact. Bottom line, if you are set on TiVo best bet is to go Fios. For every person you find that likes it, there is one who hates it because it isnt TiVo or because they have an issue with it. Personally I have two of them and I am very happy with the units.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

DAVIDGR said:


> I'm a long time DTV subscriber (Premier Package), now using an HR10-250 HDDVR. I know that I need a newer DVR/dish to receive all HD channels. My wife wants to switch to FIOS since we can still use a Tivo while I'd like to stay with DTV. Has anyone been able to get a free trial of the HR20/21 without extending their commitment?
> 
> If I can convince my wife that the HR20 or 21 is okay, I'd be happy to extend my commitment for the normal 2 years. I don't want to pay for the DVR and new dish, be stuck with a contract extension and then hate it (especially when my neighbors are happy using FIOS with an HD Tivo!)
> 
> Thanks.


I too had been a long-time customer ('94) asked 4 different times to try it. So, I tried the Tivo HD and Comcast, before dropping D*. At least that way I had up to 30 days of testing. If I didn't like it, I could send it back, and stay with Direct.

It turns out according to their long-range plan, I was in their top-tier of customers. Even still, the lady who closed my account said their was no way to try it at home. Shows you how much they value their 'top - tier' customers.:down:


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

I think there may be a way to "try" it. It depends on whether they extend your contract (which they did not do in my case) or whether you even care if they extend your contract (again a non-issue in my case).

If your HR10 is still working, get the HR2x and activate it, and deactivate (or don't) the HR10. After a fair trial period, say a month, deactivate it and send it back, and activate (or keep active) the HR10. As long as you have no lease contract on it (just an agreement to keep service for the pre-existing equipment) they would pretty-much have to take it back and refund all but shipping.

I know, I know, a lot of "ifs". Still a possible option if you make the leap and are that disappointed.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I too had been a long-time customer ('94) asked 4 different times to try it. So, I tried the Tivo HD and Comcast, before dropping D*. At least that way I had up to 30 days of testing. If I didn't like it, I could send it back, and stay with Direct.
> 
> It turns out according to their long-range plan, I was in their top-tier of customers. Even still, the lady who closed my account said their was no way to try it at home. Shows you how much they value their 'top - tier' customers.:down:


Top tier or not a "free trial" of a HR20 would cost them money. A installation location that only has a HR10 would require a visit by an installer for upgrading of the dish that is located on the premises. To properly evaluate the new equipment it needs to be able to recieve all the new HD channels that are being broadcast. If you just want to see the picture quality and play with the remote and menu's - go to Best Buy for the free evaluation.

Since the new sat feeds require a 5 LNB dish and 99.9 percent of the HR10 installations do not have the required dish on theor location. Got an idea, maybe a free trial with the installation of the dish, if you decide that you don't like it you pay the total cost of service call and the cost of the dish? That way Directv is not out of pocket for the "free evaluation" or trial perios.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> Top tier or not a "free trial" of a HR20 would cost them money. A installation location that only has a HR10 would require a visit by an installer for upgrading of the dish that is located on the premises. To properly evaluate the new equipment it needs to be able to recieve all the new HD channels that are being broadcast. If you just want to see the picture quality and play with the remote and menu's - go to Best Buy for the free evaluation.
> 
> Since the new sat feeds require a 5 LNB dish and 99.9 percent of the HR10 installations do not have the required dish on theor location. Got an idea, maybe a free trial with the installation of the dish, if you decide that you don't like it you pay the total cost of service call and the cost of the dish? That way Directv is not out of pocket for the "free evaluation" or trial perios.


Well, that's just a total misconception and displays short-sighted thinking. The two biggest issues with the HR2x are reliability and ease of operation. D* could have shipped the HR2x to me - no installation required. I was willing to plug it in and test it with the existing equipment. At the time I first inquired, it would have been an HR20, so I would have been able to test the OTA HD signal along with the all of the other considerations. So, how much would that have cost? I think they typically charge $19.95 shipping so it would have been a whopping $40.00.

So, instead D* decides to throw out a customer paying more than $1000 a year who is defined as the 'top tier' they are going after. This has got to be one of the more stupid things that anyone has done and shows you how poorly thought out this whole transition thing has been

Direct could have easily set up a 'Limited function' trial program for the existing HR10-250 owners. Ship out the box - and give an option for those that can't figure out the cabling to pay - say $50 - to have an install person come by an hook it up. Remember - in the early months, there was no national HD programming.

What an incredible concept - 'hey we're coming out with new technology that will eventually mean your HR10-250 won't get as much as it does today. Try our new box and we'll set up an installation for complete reception if you like it' Instead, they chose the route - 'we know you are going to hate our poor excuse for a replacement, so you have to sign up for 2 years without trying it out at home'


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I don't know that I would even be bothered with D*. Go over to your neighbors and check out their setup. If you like it then get a Tivo HD and lifetime service.

I hear really good things about FIOS.... just wish it was in my area. I'd really consider paying again for premium service, if it were.



DAVIDGR said:


> I'm a long time DTV subscriber (Premier Package), now using an HR10-250 HDDVR. I know that I need a newer DVR/dish to receive all HD channels. My wife wants to switch to FIOS since we can still use a Tivo while I'd like to stay with DTV. Has anyone been able to get a free trial of the HR20/21 without extending their commitment?
> 
> If I can convince my wife that the HR20 or 21 is okay, I'd be happy to extend my commitment for the normal 2 years. I don't want to pay for the DVR and new dish, be stuck with a contract extension and then hate it (especially when my neighbors are happy using FIOS with an HD Tivo!)
> 
> Thanks.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

magnus said:


> I don't know that I would even be bothered with D*. Go over to your neighbors and check out their setup. If you like it then get a Tivo HD and lifetime service.
> 
> I hear really good things about FIOS.... just wish it was in my area. I'd really consider paying again for premium service, if it were.


The Verizon FiOS supplied DVRs suck. The number of channels offered may be ok (it is certainly no where near the number of channels in HD that DirecTV offers, with each movie package only getting one HD channel and the vast majority of HD channels that DirecTV offers not even available), the picture quality is nice, and the introductory prices are not bad during your intro period.

If you don't mind adding the additional cost of TiVo box to the FiOS subscription and getting the cable cards you need from Verizon for those TiVo boxes you may enjoy FiOS. Then again, they have introductory billing issues that may freak some customers out (you'll get a huge bill from them in your second/third bill while the installation charges all catch up and get billed to you).

I have the FiOS triple player offer running in my house now and wouldn't suggest/recommend it to anyone given how unreliable their DVR box is. The only reason I have the triple play offering is that I could get *one* HD DVR with their TV service for a relatively modest upgrade fee over the cost of the triple play offering which was also a relatively modest upgrade fee over what a double play package would have cost me. I was somewhat pushed into a double play offering when it looked increasingly likely that Vonage was going to be pushed out of business, so after running the numbers I opted for Phone+Internet+TV instead of just Phone+Internet.

I'd much rather have DirecTV. The HR20/HR21 is much better than the Motorola DVR that Verizon supplies.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bdowell said:


> The Verizon FiOS supplied DVRs suck. The number of channels offered may be ok (it is certainly no where near the number of channels in HD that DirecTV offers, with each movie package only getting one HD channel and the vast majority of HD channels that DirecTV offers not even available), the picture quality is nice, and the introductory prices are not bad during your intro period.
> 
> If you don't mind adding the additional cost of TiVo box to the FiOS subscription and getting the cable cards you need from Verizon for those TiVo boxes you may enjoy FiOS. Then again, they have introductory billing issues that may freak some customers out (you'll get a huge bill from them in your second/third bill while the installation charges all catch up and get billed to you).
> 
> ...


But the big advantage that FIOS offers when it comes to dvrs over Direct is choice - either their dvr or the Tivo dvr. I think there are many folks who are enjoying the Tivos with FIOS. From all I've read, I would love to try their service.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

zactly, my point. their dvr aside.... i would say that i'd take my Tivos to their service... no problem.



RS4 said:


> But the big advantage that FIOS offers when it comes to dvrs over Direct is choice - either their dvr or the Tivo dvr. I think there are many folks who are enjoying the Tivos with FIOS. From all I've read, I would love to try their service.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Well, that's just a total misconception and displays short-sighted thinking. The two biggest issues with the HR2x are reliability and ease of operation. D* could have shipped the HR2x to me - no installation required. I was willing to plug it in and test it with the existing equipment. At the time I first inquired, it would have been an HR20, so I would have been able to test the OTA HD signal along with the all of the other considerations. So, how much would that have cost? I think they typically charge $19.95 shipping so it would have been a whopping $40.00.
> 
> So, instead D* decides to throw out a customer paying more than $1000 a year who is defined as the 'top tier' they are going after. This has got to be one of the more stupid things that anyone has done and shows you how poorly thought out this whole transition thing has been
> 
> ...


/rofl - short sighted. what ever - TANSTAAFL.

Why ship out a box that has very limited functionality in the channels it can recieve? That is not a valid test drive, period, but then again it just depends on how important the additional channels are to the edn user. You want that go to best buy and play with the unit, you will get the same idea how it works as if you where sitting at home, at least there you can actually see the new channels that are only available in MPEG4. At least you can make an accurate assesment of the unit is.

Still costs money to ship it out no matter what. Why give a discount for hook up? Full cost for installation with maybe a 15 day trial, if not happy, ship it back for no commitment, all you lose is the installation costs.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

RS4 said:


> But the big advantage that FIOS offers when it comes to dvrs over Direct is choice - either their dvr or the Tivo dvr. I think there are many folks who are enjoying the Tivos with FIOS. From all I've read, I would love to try their service.


Some choice. Pay two providers to get one working DVR. Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Two contracts, two monthly payments, and higher prices than what I get out of DirecTV.

Yeah, I'll have some of what you've been smokin' (NOT!)


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

bdowell said:


> Some choice. Pay two providers to get one working DVR. Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Two contracts, two monthly payments, and higher prices than what I get out of DirecTV.
> 
> Yeah, I'll have some of what you've been smokin' (NOT!)


If you can't get CNBC in HD it's not much of a provider in the first place.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> If you can't get CNBC in HD it's not much of a provider in the first place.


There are far too many channels that Verizon isn't offering for me to consider them a viable alternative here. Listing them all would take more time than the conversation is worth, especially given the fact it won't change the minds of the people that keep insisting on using the 'no trial period' argument.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Well, you still have to wonder why D* can't do it if Tivo can.



bdowell said:


> Listing them all would take more time than the conversation is worth, especially given the fact it won't change the minds of the people that keep insisting on using the 'no trial period' argument.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

magnus said:


> Well, you still have to wonder why D* can't do it if Tivo can.


Would guess 2 different senarios -

Inf the case of TIVO with cable/OTA, all Tivo has to do is supply the box for the end users can fully and honestly trial it. No additional costs for any specialized installation requirement, just plug it in and it recieves all the types of programming that is available off the provider.

In the case of Directv, Directv would have to upgrade the dish to a 5 lnb which would require a tech to come out and install it, a new multiswitch if the user has one in place for other units(the current installed one would not pass the new signals). All this would have to be done before a full and honest evaluation of the unit could occur. With a 3 LNB dish none of the new MPEG 4 channels could be watched or evaluated, so the end user cannot honestly evaluate the unit nor it's abilities. Someone has to pick up the cost of all this work.

Any other attempted evaluation of the unit without it's full capablities present would be determental and unfair. If you just want to see the menu's and the such then a trip to your local brick and morter store would supply you with that.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

RS4 said:


> Well, that's just a total misconception and displays short-sighted thinking. The two biggest issues with the HR2x are reliability and ease of operation. D* could have shipped the HR2x to me - no installation required. I was willing to plug it in and test it with the existing equipment. At the time I first inquired, it would have been an HR20, so I would have been able to test the OTA HD signal along with the all of the other considerations. So, how much would that have cost? I think they typically charge $19.95 shipping so it would have been a whopping $40.00.
> 
> So, instead D* decides to throw out a customer paying more than $1000 a year who is defined as the 'top tier' they are going after. This has got to be one of the more stupid things that anyone has done and shows you how poorly thought out this whole transition thing has been
> 
> ...


You know I am gonna KINDA agree with you here. Not that I think D* should have a trial, but I could have been done on the easy if done right. Like MOST Corps now, D* seems arrogant about there service and not wanting to offer a trial.

When the HR20 first came out and I heard about all the new programming coming, I was VERY hesitant to switch. I was very happy with the HR10 and I only had it for a year so we switch when the HR20 was having a fair amount of issues.

IMO here is want they could have done:


*Who are the ones really leaving Tivo and D*? die hard tivo people and Techies. Most people don't have a DVR and they ONLY way to recored before this was a VCR. Regardless on how many people where lost and gained with the switch is moot. D* could have held off or put a more reliable DVR out before they did.
* So gain, who are more likely to switch? Tech guys. So You would be able to offer most people who might leave a chance of a trial.
Don't ship boxes or add new dishes. if the consumer will pay for shipping or pick-up the new DVR with a deposit and a store, they could do the swap themselves. They don't need new channels to test drive a box, OTA or a dish.
Most would be able to unplug on box and then install the new one. Now they could test drive it to recored THEIR shows and use it how they would in a normal TV viewing pattern.

* if they like the box, they can pay the going rate for the HR2* box and up-graded installation. If not, they ship the box back or return it to the store within 30 days before their account or CC is charged the full $700+.

* Now who many of these trial people would send them back? Who knows. Let's say 60% keep them (fair), D* has now increased their business with Tivo fans who can live with the HR2* DVR's because they like D*. They gain business for those who could care less and those who come for the best HD line-up. Those who hate it, well they can move on.

Now I can see why D* does not want boxes going in and out because of returns and what not with current DVR's as this will lead to more of a mess. Installing dishes and other crap will cost them top much if you decided not to stay. Most who really DON"T want to part with Tivo, could give a fair test run with the current dishes.

Yes, on the first intro of the HR* this would have been horrible for them. They were not reliable and would have lost a ton of users. But now that the HR* series is pretty darn reliable they could still do it.

With more HD programming than anyone, competitive pricing, DVR equal to Tivo in general and all their sports exclusives this could have been an easy sell.
All in all, IMO D* could have converted bay % of the last of the HR10 hold outs and made even more money.

I was lucky in a way. My HR10 was replaced under the protection plan and I did NOT have to extend my current agreement. And you know what? They covered the HR10 again a second time after I was told I could keep it for SD stuff. This time did have to extend my commitment, but I am happy with D*. So in the end for $119 I received 2 HR2* series DVRs!

But D* is so confident/arrogant they choose not to. Also they know the REAL numbers that we don't on how much they really WILL lose and figured its just not worth it in all long run.

NO COMPANY will EVER keep 100% of their customers happy. In the end D* found the cost of business worth it to them.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

sjberra said:


> Any other attempted evaluation of the unit without it's full capablities present would be determental and unfair. If you just want to see the menu's and the such then a trip to your local brick and morter store would supply you with that.


Why more HD channels and HD locals would help that much? No.Current HR10 users are happy with what they have now. So let them test it with the same programming they have now and they COULD make a fair evaluation. Really, who are the last Tivo HR10 holdouts? I would say 95% of HT techies, etc.
They would understand this and could see if it's right for them.

Now should D* have to? No, as the HR20 is on par with Tivo. In general they all do the same main function. Pause, RW, FF and recored TV to a HD. Probably the 90%+ of people with DVR this is their only concerns. Not the whole media sharing, MRV, etc. Tos are nice, but I can live without all that. Just recored my shows, let me pause, RW and FF mu crap.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

magnus said:


> Well, you still have to wonder why D* can't do it if Tivo can.


Maybe because Tivo is desperate for subs and getting market share and DirecTV isn't. Thus Tivo will do anything to get your business while DirecTV is growing at a rate they feel is good for them (they add more subs in a month then Tivo wishes they would add all year). If DirecTV starts losing subs perhaps they will consider it but guess what...as others have pointed out it will cost them a good bit of coin to give a free trial and the bean counters have made an evaluation that doing that will cost them more money then just letting the few (very few) leave. If and when that dynamic changes then perhaps things may change.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

How much would D* need to charge for this "free trial" to keep every cable company employee from requesting one just so they could then cancel it after the dish is installed, etc.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

gio1269 said:


> Why more HD channels and HD locals would help that much? No.Current HR10 users are happy with what they have now. So let them test it with the same programming they have now and they COULD make a fair evaluation. Really, who are the last Tivo HR10 holdouts? I would say 95% of HT techies, etc.
> They would understand this and could see if it's right for them.
> 
> Now should D* have to? No, as the HR20 is on par with Tivo. In general they all do the same main function. Pause, RW, FF and recored TV to a HD. Probably the 90%+ of people with DVR this is their only concerns. Not the whole media sharing, MRV, etc. Tos are nice, but I can live without all that. Just recored my shows, let me pause, RW and FF mu crap.


Guess we have different priorties in watching shows, don't give care if it is tivo, drirectv, a drunk monkey (which in my case was more reliable then the HR10) recording the show. It is the content that is available. Yes I still have a HR10 running and on the account although it's usage if minimal since it does not recieve the majority of HD programming I and my family watch. Right now with the current software release my HR2X's are far more reliable then the previous HR10's I had

Guess it is just a different set of priorites when something is tried for evaluation.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

sjberra said:


> Guess we have different priorties in watching shows, don't give care if it is tivo, drirectv, a drunk monkey (which in my case was more reliable then the HR10) recording the show.


I agree with you and that's why I am still with D* and the HR20.

But you mean to tell me you can't "trial"a HR20 without all those MPEG-4 channels?

Then you need REALLY need to get priorities straight. YES, sticking with D* and the HR2x DVR give you the greatest choice and content in HD programming. But you can "trial or evaluate"a HR20X without those new channels.

I want my DVR to Record, Save, FF, RW, pause the most HD stuff possible. Is that better??


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

I'm gonna wade back into this conversation and ask the stupid question...

How many of the people that have complained so much here (and other places) about the lack of a trial period for the HR20/HR21 boxes have taken the few minutes that it would require to write down those complaints and send them to DirecTV?

Seriously, I doubt many have. It's easy to come here on these forums and complain, but taking the time to actually put pen to paper (or press keys on the keyboard, print out the results and send the printed copy to DirecTV) and mail it in is something that most people probably haven't done.

If you want change, lobby for it. Just do it in the right places. Complaining here, where it's fairly obvious that DirecTV doesn't pay any real attention, is not going to get any results.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

bdowell said:


> I'm gonna wade back into this conversation and ask the stupid question...
> 
> How many of the people that have complained so much here (and other places) about the lack of a trial period for the HR20/HR21 boxes have taken the few minutes that it would require to write down those complaints and send them to DirecTV?
> 
> ...


we spent *hours* on the phone with dtv, went through several hr20's before we just gave up and went with the flow. they wore us down, lol and we just put up with the problems now (missed/shortened reccordings, lockups, etc).

it gets old spending so much of your time on hold, and complaining....and not really getting anywhere.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

rickmeoff said:


> we spent *hours* on the phone with dtv, went through several hr20's before we just gave up and went with the flow. they wore us down, lol and we just put up with the problems now (missed/shortened reccordings, lockups, etc).
> 
> it gets old spending so much of your time on hold, and complaining....and not really getting anywhere.


Sounds like the last months of my HR10-250!


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Yes, the classic case of what I must do and what is the right thing to do.

There's no point to being ugly about it. Tivo does this because it's their policy .... Directv just does not care.



shibby191 said:


> Maybe because Tivo is desperate for subs and getting market share and DirecTV isn't. Thus Tivo will do anything to get your business while DirecTV is growing at a rate they feel is good for them (they add more subs in a month then Tivo wishes they would add all year). If DirecTV starts losing subs perhaps they will consider it but guess what...as others have pointed out it will cost them a good bit of coin to give a free trial and the bean counters have made an evaluation that doing that will cost them more money then just letting the few (very few) leave. If and when that dynamic changes then perhaps things may change.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I gave them my reasons for leaving.... they just did not care. And to be honest.... D* just ain't worth it anyway.



bdowell said:


> I'm gonna wade back into this conversation and ask the stupid question...
> 
> How many of the people that have complained so much here (and other places) about the lack of a trial period for the HR20/HR21 boxes have taken the few minutes that it would require to write down those complaints and send them to DirecTV?
> 
> ...


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bdowell said:


> Some choice. Pay two providers to get one working DVR. Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Two contracts, two monthly payments, and higher prices than what I get out of DirecTV.
> 
> Yeah, I'll have some of what you've been smokin' (NOT!)


Well, my combination of Comcast and Tivo are cheaper then D*, so I'm not sure what you're talking about Plus, I get to use the Tivo I love, including all of the features that D* never allowed us to have:up:


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Hey, in like 6 months to a year.... they'll have those features. 



RS4 said:


> Well, my combination of Comcast and Tivo are cheaper then D*, so I'm not sure what you're talking about Plus, I get to use the Tivo I love, including all of the features that D* never allowed us to have:up:


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

RS4 said:


> Well, my combination of Comcast and Tivo are cheaper then D*, so I'm not sure what you're talking about Plus, I get to use the Tivo I love, including all of the features that D* never allowed us to have:up:


With fewer HD channels available to you. Enjoy your limited selection.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bdowell said:


> I'm gonna wade back into this conversation and ask the stupid question...
> 
> How many of the people that have complained so much here (and other places) about the lack of a trial period for the HR20/HR21 boxes have taken the few minutes that it would require to write down those complaints and send them to DirecTV?
> 
> ...


Actually, I did exactly that and several other folks have told me the same thing. I called them 4 times, sent emails 3 times, and spoke at length with them when I left. Of course, the CSR told me her hands were tied. She even agreed with me that I was making a simple request and that others had done the same thing.

I believe the real reason that D* never offered a trial program to the DTivo users is because they knew they had an inferior box, and were afraid to be pro-active. Tivo users are used to an excellent easy-to-use non-pc-oriented dvr. You guys don't want to admit it, but the results show that a huge number of DTivo users prefer the Tivo. So, when it comes to the HR10-250 crowd, I believe D* decided to play a stall tactic and take whatever losses came along.

You guys can rant and rave all you want, but good business sense says you hang on to your best customers if you can. Sure, you're going to lose some in a product transition stage, but D* bent over backwards with their stupidity.

D* spent hundreds of millions of dollars implementing a new technology and obsoleting many of their best customers equipment that had just been bought at premium amounts in many cases. The program I described would have cost them a minuscule amount when you consider the total cost, and think about the positive reaction they would have gotten from the HR10-250 customers when they found they were being shipped the box for a trial period. Goodwill is a tangible, but still worth a lot of money. You guys (and D*) are willing to just write that off.

I don't like the HR2x from what I've seen of it and didn't think I would like it at home - especially for 2 years, but I was willing to try it at home. There are just too many things I wanted to check out that I couldn't possible do in a store.

The funny thing is that probably one of the big reasons for Murdoch doing this stuff in house was so that he could squeeze the almighty dollar a little more his way. While at the same time, he's losing some of his biggest clients.

D* reminds me of Microsoft - they are growing in spite of themselves. But, you just wonder how much more they would grow if they thought about the customer once in a while.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bdowell said:


> With fewer HD channels available to you. Enjoy your limited selection.


It's not the number of HD channels available, it's how many HD channels do I watch? As I've said many times before, on any given day I have between 20 and 25 programs in my HD folder, so I'm not sure how I could watch any more.

My philosophy on television is that I hate watching live TV. I can't stand the commercials, especially the programs that keep repeating the same commercial over and over. And while I like some sports, there are always dead times in the game because of one thing or another. So, as long there are plenty of shows on the dvr, I'm a happy camper. In fact, when we first got our new Tivos, my wife said to me 'we'll never be able to watch all of that stuff' and I reminded her that that is exactly the reason why we have a dvr - there is always variety, and way more then we'll ever watch. So, what would I do with more stations when I can't even get through all of the other stuff


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> /rofl - short sighted. what ever - TANSTAAFL.
> 
> Why ship out a box that has very limited functionality in the channels it can recieve? That is not a valid test drive, period, but then again it just depends on how important the additional channels are to the edn user. You want that go to best buy and play with the unit, you will get the same idea how it works as if you where sitting at home, at least there you can actually see the new channels that are only available in MPEG4. At least you can make an accurate assesment of the unit is.
> 
> Still costs money to ship it out no matter what. Why give a discount for hook up? Full cost for installation with maybe a 15 day trial, if not happy, ship it back for no commitment, all you lose is the installation costs.


Like I said - short-sighted. Are you sure you don't work for D*? In case you aren't aware, the locals from D* are broadcast in MPEG4, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Instead of D* reaching out to their best customers during this transition, they've buried their heads, and only contacted them when something was going away.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> Would guess 2 different senarios -
> 
> Inf the case of TIVO with cable/OTA, all Tivo has to do is supply the box for the end users can fully and honestly trial it. No additional costs for any specialized installation requirement, just plug it in and it recieves all the types of programming that is available off the provider.
> 
> ...


That of course is just total BS. The only thing that cannot be evaluated by an existing HR10-250 customer is the some of the new MPEG4 channels, but there are still local MPEG4 channels available, so the client will be able to see the 'new' technology. You guys rant and rave about 'give it time - it takes some people a while to get used to it' - so does that mean I need to make 30 trips over to the Best Buy to see if I feel any better about it. Sheez - give me a break with these lame excuses


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## LostCluster (Feb 11, 2002)

DirecTV's HD lead is temporary. Cable and DBS providers are both at their bandwidth signal limits, but cable co's can put up one HD digital channel for every analog channel they shut down, and right now they're holding 50 to 70 of them. DirecTV just got their big bandwidth gain with a satellite that they redirected from going to what would have been called DirecWay (now HughesNet) and that's what allowed them to get so many HD networks so fast, but require a new sat position be found to get them.

Some of DirecTV's new HD networks are just plain silly. Do we really need to see the talking heads of Fox Business Network or CNBC in HD? Are there enough HD programs not already on Discovery HD Theater for there to be a seperate HD channel for each Discovery Networks channel?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

magnus said:


> I gave them my reasons for leaving.... they just did not care. And to be honest.... D* just ain't worth it anyway.


Yes - that's the real reason right there. As I have said many times, it seems quite obvious that Direct lost site of the customer about the time that Murdoch showed up... they are growing in spite of themselves...poor planning, poor customer relationships, and second-rate products. They're just another video supplier - as bad as most of the others:down:


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

My thoughts exactly.... if people stopped trying to tell themselves that D* has the most HD or the most SD... then they would realize that they're paying $100+ for channels that they don't even watch. Wow, I get 100 channels of HD but only watch 5 of them.

Yep, you're gonna miss all that bloated content. 



RS4 said:


> It's not the number of HD channels available, it's how many HD channels do I watch? As I've said many times before, on any given day I have between 20 and 25 programs in my HD folder, so I'm not sure how I could watch any more.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

magnus said:


> My thoughts exactly.... if people stopped trying to tell themselves that D* has the most HD or the most SD... then they would realize that they're paying $100+ for channels that they don't even watch. Wow, I get 100 channels of HD but only watch 5 of them.
> 
> Yep, you're gonna miss all that bloated content.


Just keep tellin' yourselfs you aren't missing the channels that DirecTV is carrying. If you don't know what is there it must not be important and doesn't matter.

I don't even see the need to debunk the comments above DirecTV's 'temporary' lead, but there are so many misconceptions and wrong impressions there that the comment was laughable. DirecTV has plenty of capacity now, not from using tricks, but because they planned for that capacity and are making use of it (via new receivers). Dish Network was going to follow a similar plan but unfortunately fell victim, at least temporarily, to a failed satellite launch.

Eventually cable and FiOS will catch up, but first they have to solve their own technical issues without chasing away customers that get tired of paying for channels that their DVRs won't get (because of SDV as an example).

That there are customers out there that don't want to pay for the abundance of programming that is available is accepted. I understand the thought of not spending money on marginally desired programming, but there is a lot of value out there to be found for those that investigate the programming schedules of some of the channels they are so quick to dismiss. Eventually that programming will turn up on over-the-air stations, or perhaps PBS or some of the channels that are available on the most basic packages. The question is do you want to wait for the content to come to you or do you go out of your way to watch it now.

I've cut back on some programming myself -- prime example HBO -- but still pay for other 'extras' that are available because there is plenty of value in those channels for myself or my family.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Looks like you missed the point entirely. 



bdowell said:


> Just keep tellin' yourselfs you aren't missing the channels that DirecTV is carrying. If you don't know what is there it must not be important and doesn't matter.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

magnus said:


> Looks like you missed the point entirely.


And you continue to miss all of those channels you are telling yourself aren't worth the money. 

I didn't miss your point. If you are really happy that you aren't paying for channels you don't think you'll watch that is fine. Why bother to keep coming back here and take every opportunity to claim that DirecTV is ignoring it's customers and their desires though? Oh, yeah, because they don't offer free trials to see those channels or use the DVRs that they are 'pushing' on customers right? But what do all of your words (and those of RS4 and others) really do? Not a darned thing.

Customers that want DirecTV will continue to stay with DirecTV. People can bad mouth DirecTV all they want but it barely blips the radar, if even does. DirecTV is still signing up customers at a nice pace to get those channels and pay that $100 that you and others keep tossing around (except they don't pay that much because new customers pay less, and even seasoned vets like myself don't pay that much unless they have a home full of DVRs and have opened up multiple channels from DirecTV anyway...)

I pay a fair price for the programming I get and I watch a great bit of what is available to me. There is a helluva lot of value in many of those HD channels RS4 and others pooh-pooh. I know darned well that the same people saying they don't need those channels now will be the same ones celebrating when those channels are lit up on their provider, assuming they can actually get those channels (because they may need some adapter to deal with the SDV that their cable/FiOS provider is using....)


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

LostCluster said:


> DirecTV just got their big bandwidth gain with a satellite that they redirected from going to what would have been called DirecWay (now HughesNet) and that's what allowed them to get so many HD networks so fast, but require a new sat position be found to get them.


Man are you out of touch. Spaceway 1 and 2, launched a few years ago, is what you are talking about and they are used for HD locals only.

D10 sat was launched last year *specifically* for the national HD expansion.
Same with D11 sat they just launched and should be online in a month or so.
And D12 sat is scheduled to launch next year to once again expand the HD lineup.
And they could do yet another say later on if they so chose.





> Some of DirecTV's new HD networks are just plain silly. Do we really need to see the talking heads of Fox Business Network or CNBC in HD? Are there enough HD programs not already on Discovery HD Theater for there to be a seperate HD channel for each Discovery Networks channel?


Ummmm, why are they "DirecTV's HD networks?" They are the same networks that Dish, cable and Fios carry or will carry. An HD station is available and DirecTV carry's it. Isn't that what we all want? And if you don't know the difference between HD Theater and the separate Discovery networks then you really don't know what you're talking about.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

*bdowell*

Ok, ... maybe another time. It's okay if you don't get it.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

gio1269 said:


> I agree with you and that's why I am still with D* and the HR20.
> 
> But you mean to tell me you can't "trial"a HR20 without all those MPEG-4 channels?
> 
> ...


Plain and simple if I go to test drive something, it is with ALL the options that I am looking for, not just some of them.

Kind of like going out to shop for a Mercedes and test driving a Yugo instead to see how it runs. Functionality is exactly the same, they both have 4 wheels, a steering wheel,an engine and they do the same exact thing basicly - get you from point A to point b. So there should be no difference in the test drive.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

RS4 said:


> That of course is just total BS. The only thing that cannot be evaluated by an existing HR10-250 customer is the some of the new MPEG4 channels, but there are still local MPEG4 channels available, so the client will be able to see the 'new' technology. You guys rant and rave about 'give it time - it takes some people a while to get used to it' - so does that mean I need to make 30 trips over to the Best Buy to see if I feel any better about it. Sheez - give me a break with these lame excuses


Well I generally understand your position on this issue, I dont agree with it, but thats irrelevant, I do respect the thought process. However, what sense would it make for a company to send out an item for a customer to "test", if it wouldnt have all of its features working, names the ability to view the new channels. In my opinion, my new channels are markedly clearer than the older MPEG2 ones. I can understand why they did not want to invest a ton of money in dishes and labor, etc to try and win over what would most likely be a small number of people. As has been stated, those people who want the service are going to go with it. Those that want TiVo have had to make a decision like you did. I would think that in the grand scheme of things, you are just getting washed out in the numbers.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

LostCluster said:


> Some of DirecTV's new HD networks are just plain silly. Do we really need to see the talking heads of Fox Business Network or CNBC in HD? Are there enough HD programs not already on Discovery HD Theater for there to be a seperate HD channel for each Discovery Networks channel?


Those of us that spend much of our day trading stocks think CNBC in HD is priceless.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

As I posted in another thread it really is simple: Does the cost of free trials outweigh losing a few customers. Right now it costs too much to do a free trial vs what they might gain from doing it. Wow, math. Now should the day come where free trials are needed to keep customers or it becomes worth it economically then they may do it.

Plus the fact that the vast majority of people out there just don't care what receiver or DVR they get. They really don't despite what some here believe. Sure the few hundred/thousand on this forum may care. But what is that compared to 110 *million* possible households and 17 *million* current DriecTV subs. Small potatoes and as someone said above, just gets flushed out in the churn numbers. 

The love for Tivo over anything else is real. But it's a very, very small &#37; of people, barely a blip on the radar, despite what the emotional response is to it by a few on this forum.

There will be 40 million DVR households by year's end. Less then 4 million are Tivo and 2.5 million of those are with DirecTV and shrinking fast. Tivo is a very small bit player in the DVR universe. People need to start to realize that. Doesn't mean that Tivo is bad or that it's a slam on Tivo. Days are much different then 6-7 years ago when Tivo had 80% of the DVR market. Now it's less then 10%. It's just the reality which some here seem to be missing.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

sjberra said:


> Plain and simple if I go to test drive something, it is with ALL the options that I am looking for, not just some of them.
> 
> Kind of like going out to shop for a Mercedes and test driving a Yugo instead to see how it runs. Functionality is exactly the same, they both have 4 wheels, a steering wheel,an engine and they do the same exact thing basically - get you from point A to point b. So there should be no difference in the test drive.


Sorry but no. If you are a HR10-250 user, you don't have those channels available. So you cans till evaluate the HR20X without seeing them. A channel is a channel!!

A HR10-250 user only needs to evaluate on the functions of the DVR, not content they are not already seeing. The GUI is the part they want to test drive, not more HD channels .

You analogy was useless.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

gio1269 said:


> Sorry but no. If you are a HR10-250 user, you don't have those channels available. So you cans till evaluate the HR20X without seeing them. A channel is a channel!!
> 
> A HR10-250 user only needs to evaluate on the functions of the DVR, not content they are not already seeing. The GUI is the part they want to test drive, not more HD channels .
> 
> You analogy was useless.


Different strokes for different folks - I require a test drive or a demo with all the same abilities that I will have with the purchased/leased item. have walked away from many a car dealership that did not have the car I was interested in with the options I wanted on it that could be evaluted

The content is the primary reason for me and my family, all units record, fast forward, reverse, if you want to just evaluate the unit on one small portion of the total package or just look at the GUI and various other functions the local brick and mortar store is available for that.

For me the analog is on the money, give it to me all or don't bother offering it.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

jimb726 said:


> Well I generally understand your position on this issue, I dont agree with it, but thats irrelevant, I do respect the thought process. However, what sense would it make for a company to send out an item for a customer to "test", if it wouldnt have all of its features working, names the ability to view the new channels. In my opinion, my new channels are markedly clearer than the older MPEG2 ones. I can understand why they did not want to invest a ton of money in dishes and labor, etc to try and win over what would most likely be a small number of people. As has been stated, those people who want the service are going to go with it. Those that want TiVo have had to make a decision like you did. I would think that in the grand scheme of things, you are just getting washed out in the numbers.


Just look at what you're saying - 'oh you can't test the HR2x because you don't have access to all of the channels' What about all of those folks that got the HR20 for the year before the latest satellite was available - are you saying they made up their minds too early, because the channels weren't available? Your argument is just totally baseless for an HR10-250 owner.

The locals should be in the same quality as the nationals. Therefore, a 'full' test should be achievable. You seem to be so busy protecting Direct that you lose sight of the real business issue - preserving the high-paying (i.e. HR10-250) clients.

How many disgruntled customers have they lost by burying their head in the sand? Even if some of us moved on, we would think much higher of D* having been allowed to test the darn thing. And think how many more folks they would have probably hung on to if they were allowed enough time to get used to the new box?

You guys (and Direct) wrote us off without even giving us a chance to see if we liked the box. It's just totally senseless. I can't think of any other situation where a company is shooing away their most prized customers with such arrogance.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

gio1269 said:


> Sorry but no. If you are a HR10-250 user, you don't have those channels available. So you cans till evaluate the HR20X without seeing them. A channel is a channel!!
> 
> A HR10-250 user only needs to evaluate on the functions of the DVR, not content they are not already seeing. The GUI is the part they want to test drive, not more HD channels .
> 
> You analogy was useless.


I can't believe I actually agree with you, but this is precisely the argument. I was concerned about the 'look and feel' - how it operated, was it stable, could I get used to the changes I knew were there, etc. The MPEG 4 channels were way way down on my list of priorities. I wanted to see if I could live with the box, but I wasn't about to plop down $480, just to live with it for a month.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> Different strokes for different folks - I require a test drive or a demo with all the same abilities that I will have with the purchased/leased item. have walked away from many a car dealership that did not have the car I was interested in with the options I wanted on it that could be evaluted
> 
> The content is the primary reason for me and my family, all units record, fast forward, reverse, if you want to just evaluate the unit on one small portion of the total package or just look at the GUI and various other functions the local brick and mortar store is available for that.
> 
> For me the analog is on the money, give it to me all or don't bother offering it.


Oh - so I guess you must have waited until just a month or so ago to get your HR2x, because that's the only time you could have done a 'full' test? Gosh, it seems to me you've been chatting about the HR2x for months now, but I must surely have that wrong, because we all know you wait until you can look at all the content


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## doncoolio (Jul 9, 2006)

Not that I wan't to get into this pissing match, but bdowell's statement about FIOS using SDV is incorrect.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

RS4 said:


> I can't believe I actually agree with you, but this is precisely the argument. I was concerned about the 'look and feel' - how it operated, was it stable, could I get used to the changes I knew were there, etc. The MPEG 4 channels were way way down on my list of priorities. I wanted to see if I could live with the box, but I wasn't about to plop down $480, just to live with it for a month.


Funny huh? But you are right in a sense. The MPEG-4 locals are the same as nationals. What that guys does not get as a HR10 user, you don't get all the HD channels anyways. So comparing the HR10 and HR2X is fair. Now the extra HD channels is a BONUS if you like their content.

Personally, I would have left Tivo for the HR2X regardless due to all those HD channels. I really watch closer to nothing now in SD. Yes, I love my CNN HD! 

No whether D* SHOULD offer a trial is were we disagree. I guess I am more and more on the fence now that I gave an esay plan for them.

But the bottom line is they are growing and don't care about losing HR10 crowd. Many times a business has to do this to move on. Good customers or not.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Oh - so I guess you must have waited until just a month or so ago to get your HR2x, because that's the only time you could have done a 'full' test? Gosh, it seems to me you've been chatting about the HR2x for months now, but I must surely have that wrong, because we all know you wait until you can look at all the content


Got my first HR2X series back in June of 07, my second in November of 07, the third HR10 will probably be released form service via a meeting with Mr Remington with in the next couple of months, but it is sitting in the garage hooked up to a set there, so it is not very high on the priority list. So you are pretty much wrong on your statements, unless you consider almost 11 months ago - "just a month or so ago". Bottom line is content for me, but as you have stated before in responses to me that content is not a high priority on your list of things, the infamous TIVO interface is where your priorities are, at least I still use a HR10 for Directv


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

gio1269 said:


> Funny huh? But you are right in a sense. The MPEG-4 locals are the same as nationals. What that guys does not get as a HR10 user, you don't get all the HD channels anyways. So comparing the HR10 and HR2X is fair. Now the extra HD channels is a BONUS if you like their content.
> 
> Personally, I would have left Tivo for the HR2X regardless due to all those HD channels. I really watch closer to nothing now in SD. Yes, I love my CNN HD!
> 
> ...


"getting it" is not the issue here the issue here is the content, the GUI is functionality, they all record, fast forward, reverse, etc - that can be "test driven" at the local brick and mortar store. The *MAIN point* of using a HR2X series IS getting ALL of the HD channels not just a FEW as with the HR10. Why would anyone what to trial something that does not have ALL of the abilities active - that is just a waste of the companies money, being able to demo ALL the functions of a unit is the main idea behind a trial period. If the case of the HR2X the main function is MPEG4 channels, which you cannot trial if you do not have the outside equipment that isa required.

It just boils down to a priorities issue here - the unit in itself is a low priority, it functions the similiar to ALL DVR's on the market, the backbopne priority here is reviewing the content. Maybe your's and RS4's priority is the GUI, but mine is the content

In any respect, according to the published 1st quarter financials they must be doing something right even with no "trial"

17 Percent revenue increase, 10 percdnt net
47 percent subscriber increase

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/080507/20080507005615.html?.v=1


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Yea, was just about to post that about the 1st quarter results.

US revenue's increase 14&#37; to 4 *billion*
ARPU (Average monthly subscriber spend) up 8.6%
Net Sub additions of 275,000
Churn at 10 year low of 1.36% (pretty much anybody in the industry would kill to get churn that low)

And they are now over 17 million total subs

Yea, they need a free trial. It doesn't matter if you think it's wrong or "arrogant" or whatever you want to spew, the facts and the numbers really speak for themselves. I can find a lot of people that think any company is arrogant so it's not surprising that some people feel the same about DirecTV. So for heaven's sake move on then and quit giving yourself an ulser over DirecTV.  Again, the fact and numbers speak for themselves. At least at this time they don't need a free trial and they haven't had one for years. Just accept it and move on.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

shibby191 said:


> Yea, they need a free trial. It doesn't matter if you think it's wrong or "arrogant" or whatever you want to spew, the facts and the numbers really speak for themselves.


nobody was arguing/discussing the fact that their numbers were good or not. nobody here was saying 'theyre losing subs.....they need to do a 30 day free trial.'

based on this statement.......youve completely missed the point.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

sjberra said:


> "getting it" is not the issue here the issue here is the content, the GUI is functionality, they all record, fast forward, reverse, etc - that can be "test driven" at the local brick and mortar store. The *MAIN point* of using a HR2X series IS getting ALL of the HD channels not just a FEW as with the HR10. Why would anyone what to trial something that does not have ALL of the abilities active - that is just a waste of the companies money, being able to demo ALL the functions of a unit is the main idea behind a trial period.


NO IT'S NOT! The MAIN POINT of the HR20X is it's DTV ONLY DVR. If you prefer Tivo GUI, this CAN make a big difference on whether you stick around. Yes, the HR2X was designed to get MPEG-4 streams, but you STILL don't get the point!! HR10 user CAN and FAIRLY demo a HR2x series DVR without every channel. How does getting every HD channel or MPEG-4 feeds make a difference? You ca go to a store and see MPEG-4 picture quality. Now you also can go and see how the GUI works and the remote. But a true feel on the overall feel of a DVR is using it day after day for a short period.

But yes, ALL DVR's do basically the sam e main things. It's *"feel"* and overall use of the GUI and the DVR capabilities can make a difference. But Tivo die hards make a bit too much of a deal of this anyways.

But having a HR10 user demo one in house for 30 days without MPEG-4 feeds can easliy be done. They are only getting M2 channels anyways.

You just hung up on the whole M4 thing.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

rickmeoff said:


> nobody was arguing/discussing the fact that their numbers were good or not. nobody here was saying 'theyre losing subs.....they need to do a 30 day free trial.'
> 
> based on this statement.......youve completely missed the point.


No, I do get the point. RS4 and others have been saying that DirecTV has made a bad decision to not offer a free trial and keep on hammering it like they are going down because of it. But the facts are completely opposite of that. So now that they may realize that they aren't all that important to DirecTV the attacks have gone the way of "well yea they are still growing but it's arrogant and they are a terrible company to not value me more". Yeah, whatever.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

RS4 said:


> Just look at what you're saying - 'oh you can't test the HR2x because you don't have access to all of the channels' What about all of those folks that got the HR20 for the year before the latest satellite was available - are you saying they made up their minds too early, because the channels weren't available? Your argument is just totally baseless for an HR10-250 owner.
> 
> The locals should be in the same quality as the nationals. Therefore, a 'full' test should be achievable. You seem to be so busy protecting Direct that you lose sight of the real business issue - preserving the high-paying (i.e. HR10-250) clients.
> 
> ...


Wait a minute, I am not backing them or writing you off. I even made a point to say that I generally agree with you. Jeez. All I said was I can understand why they dont give out units as a trial before they were fully functional. As for the folks who got it early, that was the reciever that was being used, it wasnt given to them as a test drive. That is a big difference. You are asking to be able to use something to presumably test it out and make a educated decision. If the feeling on their part is that the unit cannot be fully tested out than it would be foolish to do so. As I have said before I agree with the test drive program, so drop that as well. As much as everyone like to continue to spout off about lost customers and opportunities, the truth is and always has been, nobody knows how many people have left because of this. Outside of people on this forum I have not heard of anyone leaving because they dont have TiVo or the opportunity to test the unit out. Time will tell whether it was a good decision or not but that isnt going to be decided in the near future either.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

RS4 said:


> Just look at what you're saying - 'oh you can't test the HR2x because you don't have access to all of the channels' What about all of those folks that got the HR20 for the year before the latest satellite was available - are you saying they made up their minds too early, because the channels weren't available? Your argument is just totally baseless for an HR10-250 owner.
> 
> The locals should be in the same quality as the nationals. Therefore, a 'full' test should be achievable. You seem to be so busy protecting Direct that you lose sight of the real business issue - preserving the high-paying (i.e. HR10-250) clients.
> 
> ...


Wait a minute, I am not backing them or writing you off. I even made a point to say that I generally agree with you. Jeez. All I said was I can understand why they dont give out units as a trial before they were fully functional. As for the folks who got it early, that was the reciever that was being used, it wasnt given to them as a test drive. That is a big difference. You are asking to be able to use something to presumably test it out and make a educated decision. If the feeling on their part is that the unit cannot be fully tested out than it would be foolish to do so. As I have said before I agree with the test drive program, so drop that as well. As much as everyone like to continue to spout off about lost customers and opportunities, the truth is and always has been, nobody knows how many people have left because of this. Outside of people on this forum I have not heard of anyone leaving because they dont have TiVo or the opportunity to test the unit out. Time will tell whether it was a good decision or not but that isnt going to be decided in the near future either.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

shibby191 said:


> No, I do get the point. RS4 and others have been saying that DirecTV has made a bad decision to not offer a free trial and keep on hammering it like they are going down because of it.


i dunno if i agree that theyve been 'hammering it like they are going down,' but their point that dtv isnt offering a free trial being a bag of suck for us.....the paying customers.......is a valid one.

the fact that dtv doesnt give a sh*t about the percentage of customers they may lose because of their policies, and is still fattening their wallets up...... is a whole 'nother argument.

i guess you could argue that theyre either content with the customers theyre getting and dont care about those they turn away because of their 'no return' policy.........or that theyre afraid if they give somebody 30 days with the hr2x, theyll end up with less customers once they see how inconsistant the unit is (unless theyre lucky enough to get a good one the first shot).


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

It's not a big deal for many companies. Forget all of these stupid terms, test drive, in home trial.

Simple. 30 day return policy.

Customer pays install charge, equipment is refunded. Contract is set aside.

It's not that big of a deal....

Well, unless you know the equipment sucks and you'll have massive returns....


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

shibby191 said:


> No, I do get the point. RS4 and others have been saying that DirecTV has made a bad decision to not offer a free trial and keep on hammering it like they are going down because of it. But the facts are completely opposite of that. So now that they may realize that they aren't all that important to DirecTV the attacks have gone the way of "well yea they are still growing but it's arrogant and they are a terrible company to not value me more". Yeah, whatever.


Who, you are clueless. I NEVER said D* should have to give trial. I said it might not have/or be a bad idea for the last few holdouts! RS4 is adamant about trials. I could careless and really don't think they NEED to. Should they? I said maybe.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

gio1269 said:


> Who, you are clueless. I NEVER said D* should have to give trial. I said it might not have/or be a bad idea for the last few holdouts! RS4 is adamant about trials. I could careless and really don't think they NEED to. Should they? I said maybe.


Ummmm, I wasn't responding to you.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

shibby191 said:


> Ummmm, I wasn't responding to you.


Derek Zoolander.........


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## DAVIDGR (Oct 26, 2002)

gio1269 said:


> Sorry but no. If you are a HR10-250 user, you don't have those channels available. So you cans till evaluate the HR20X without seeing them. A channel is a channel!!
> 
> A HR10-250 user only needs to evaluate on the functions of the DVR, not content they are not already seeing. The GUI is the part they want to test drive, not more HD channels .
> 
> You analogy was useless.


As the originator of this thread, I have to agree with this comment by gio1269. I'm more interested in the GUI of the DVR... how it compares to Tivo, and how difficult/easy it is to schedule programs and season passes, compare the program guide, etc. I already know that I'd get more channels in HD and know that the picture quality would be much better than SD.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

DAVIDGR said:


> 'm more interested in the GUI of the DVR... how it compares to Tivo, and how difficult/easy it is to schedule programs and season passes, compare the program guide, etc.


As for season passes and stuff, it's a lot easier on the HR21 in most cases. Pull up the guide, highlight your program, hit record twice and you're done. Really is that simple.

Tivo has a more robust search/wishlist function although the search on the HR21 is certainly fine for most people and has been enhanced greatly lately (it can even do some things Tivo can't like limiting an autorecord to a channel range or just a certain channel). But if you rely on a lot of advanced wishlists on the Tivo you will probably find the HR21 lacking in that.

Program guide is your typical grid guide you find on pretty much any satellite or cable receiver. The "tivo style" guide is only found on Tivo's.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

gio1269 said:


> NO IT'S NOT! The MAIN POINT of the HR20X is it's DTV ONLY DVR. If you prefer Tivo GUI, this CAN make a big difference on whether you stick around. Yes, the HR2X was designed to get MPEG-4 streams, but you STILL don't get the point!! HR10 user CAN and FAIRLY demo a HR2x series DVR without every channel. How does getting every HD channel or MPEG-4 feeds make a difference? You ca go to a store and see MPEG-4 picture quality. Now you also can go and see how the GUI works and the remote. But a true feel on the overall feel of a DVR is using it day after day for a short period.
> 
> But yes, ALL DVR's do basically the sam e main things. It's *"feel"* and overall use of the GUI and the DVR capabilities can make a difference. But Tivo die hards make a bit too much of a deal of this anyways.
> 
> ...


Don't need a nuetered free trial for that, you can get the same results by going to your local brick and mortar store and click through the menu's to your hearts content, only difference with a free trial is you can sit on the couch in your underwear and click the remote.

I am out of this, I live in the content world, not the interface world. Yup I am hung up on the MPEG 4 thing as you so apptly put it, content is is the main reason any provider should be chosen. You and others believe it should be the interface and not the content. At the end of the day, with the 1st quarter returns that have been published it appears a large number of people feel the same way.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

DAVIDGR said:


> As the originator of this thread, I have to agree with this comment by gio1269. I'm more interested in the GUI of the DVR... how it compares to Tivo, and how difficult/easy it is to schedule programs and season passes, compare the program guide, etc. I already know that I'd get more channels in HD and know that the picture quality would be much better than SD.


we hated the gui on the hr20 (my wife and kids dislike it) when we first got it. it was very non intuitive, but that was probably due to the fact that we had used nothng but tivo for years.

its more computer-like imo, but like anything else you get used to it after a while.

my mom has had tivos for years, and just recently upgraded to a tivohd and has had no problem with using it (the familiarity of the gui). there is no way in hell i wouldve gotten an hr2x for her.........she wouldnt have been able to figure it out, lol.

tivo gui is extremely simplistic........many here have commented that its too 'child-like and cartooney........' but to the rest of *my* family, thats what they found appealing about it.

to each hi (or her) own, i guess.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

shibby191 said:


> Yea, was just about to post that about the 1st quarter results.
> 
> US revenue's increase 14% to 4 *billion*
> ARPU (Average monthly subscriber spend) up 8.6%
> ...


Here's the fact you all miss - how many of the nearly 700,000 that left Direct in the last quarter might have stayed if they had been allowed to test the machine for any amount of time?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> Got my first HR2X series back in June of 07, my second in November of 07, the third HR10 will probably be released form service via a meeting with Mr Remington with in the next couple of months, but it is sitting in the garage hooked up to a set there, so it is not very high on the priority list. So you are pretty much wrong on your statements, unless you consider almost 11 months ago - "just a month or so ago". Bottom line is content for me, but as you have stated before in responses to me that content is not a high priority on your list of things, the infamous TIVO interface is where your priorities are, at least I still use a HR10 for Directv


Gee, now I'm really confused - you claim that content is king, but yet you got your first unit before all of the content was available So, essentially you bought the box without even looking at the most important thing - that's like buying a car where the cruise control is the most important thing, but the cruise control won't be available for 3 months, so you buy it anyway

On the other hand, most of us Tivo users are saying we wanted to compare the HR2x to our experience with the Tivo - frankly we could care less about the content. We want to see if the box has the reliability problems that many many people talk about. The UI is a big deal to us, so we want to spend time with that. So, because of arrogance (in reality Direct knew we wouldn't like it - they read the polls too), we were run off!!


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

RS4 said:


> Here's the fact you all miss - how many of the nearly 700,000 that left Direct in the last quarter might have stayed if they had been allowed to test the machine for any amount of time?


Wow, maybe 100. 500? 1000 if I'm real generous. Come on now...and you know that 700,000 leaving is quite normal for the industry and is a low number actually. As based on the net adds and the low churn %.

You just don't get that you are few and just get caught up in the wash. Oh well, keep on spouting that DirecTV is evil. It's a laugh every time. You are my entertainment at work. It's awesome! :up:


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Gee, now I'm really confused - you claim that content is king, but yet you got your first unit before all of the content was available So, essentially you bought the box without even looking at the most important thing - that's like buying a car where the cruise control is the most important thing, but the cruise control won't be available for 3 months, so you buy it anyway
> 
> On the other hand, most of us Tivo users are saying we wanted to compare the HR2x to our experience with the Tivo - frankly we could care less about the content. We want to see if the box has the reliability problems that many many people talk about. The UI is a big deal to us, so we want to spend time with that. So, because of arrogance (in reality Direct knew we wouldn't like it - they read the polls too), we were run off!!


Guess you never do any forecast planning in your life and just do it on the fly. The new content was already scheduled to come out, the birds where in the air, the statement was made that it is REQUIRED to have the HR20. 
Did not need a "free test drive" to know that it was in the books.

How are you doing with your cable company content and your Tivo by the way? Lets not go into the slanted polls that you like to quote, for every poll you like to qoute there are others that show the exact opposite that you claim are slanted against the truth. Bottom line the only thing you want to test is the interface, but then you can do that in a brick amd mortar retail outlet with just a little effort.

Bottom line - the UI is a minor part of the unit, ALL dvr's have it, it is just that a UI, all of them have the the same basic functionality, all of them do the same basic job which is program the unit to do something. Sometimes the learning curve requires more then what some people want to spend on it, but then that is life. Deal with it or leave. A "test drive" will not change anyone's mind that is already bias against the new device simple because it is not written by their preferred vendor, so it is throwing good money after bad. Run into this all the time in the technical support world, sometimes as a company youi just have to cut your loses and let those customers walk away, which is what is occuring here. ROI is just not there.

I still get a kick out the fact that you always point out the relibility problems with the new HR2X's but conviently gloss over and ignore the ones that are being posted about the HR10's series, granted there are less of the HR10 being posted lately, but that is simply becasue there are fewer HR10's left in service then are HR20's. I have one left and it is going to go to the junk pile within the next few months also.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

sjberra said:


> The new content was already scheduled to come out, the birds wher *ein the air*.


ya? eez zis true? zey vhas ein ze air?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> Guess you never do any forecast planning in your life and just do it on the fly. The new content was already scheduled to come out, the birds wher ein the air, the statement was made that it is REQUIRED to have the HR20.
> Did not need a "free test drive" to know that it was in the books.
> 
> How are you doing with your cable company content and your Tivo by the way? Lets not go into the slanted polls that you like to quote, for every poll you like to qoute there are others that show the exact opposite that you claim are slanted against the truth. Bottom line the only thing you want to test is the interface, but then you can do that in a brick amd mortar retail outlet with just a little effort.
> ...


Guess you guys don't like someone pointing out that Direct has dropped in its distinction by many people. It used to be a company that was admired for it's creativeness and technology. Now it's just become a second-rated company like all of the other sat/cable companies - someone that you have to do business with.

Guess you guys don't like to read the bad press that Direct has gotten on their dvr. It's funny how you try to ignore the polls, etc., but the fact remains, you are using a second-rated box now in the opinion of others (and me). So, you go ahead and poo-poo the UI. The fact remains that most of the Tivo users prefer the Tivo's UI.

You can try to drag the Tivo units into the reliability issue. However, we have no idea how many of those problems have been related to Direct. On the other hand, we continue to see thread after thread after thread of problems with the reliability of the HR2x.

We read about Direct sending the same unit out 7 times to unsuspecting customers and we get the impression that Direct is not solving problems... just moving them around to someone else and hope they won't say anything for a while.

We also read about the weekly 'stability' fix still going on. And then we look at the features on the HR2x box and discover that they've been on the Tivos for a long time, it's just that Direct never gave them to us. So we come to the conclusion that Direct is good at copying ideas that work, but haven't really come out with anything new - and at the same time have made people get along with limited functionally for months - oh this feature is 'almost' ready, that feature is 'getting close' to working.

So, yep you're right the numbers are on Direct's side - and no one is arguing that. As has been pointed out many times, most people don't do the research or really care about the dvr or the company they are dealing with. My guess is if more people read this forum and others they would look for another video supplier. In fact, I have had several people tell me they were glad they ran across this forum and they went in a different direction as I did.

And of course the funny thing to a lot of us Tivo users is how you folks defend a company that has turned it's nose on the customer. Instead, you seem to bend over a little further and get ready for the next onslaught.

BTW, did you read how their profits are at an all-time high? They seemed to attribute that to the latest price increase I know that will really 'benefit' you folks like all of their other policies - because they 'really care' about ya


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

RS4 said:


> Guess you guys don't like someone pointing out that Direct has dropped in its distinction by many people. It used to be a company that was admired for it's creativeness and technology. Now it's just become a second-rated company like all of the other sat/cable companies - someone that you have to do business with.


Hmmmm, I never viewed DirecTV that way. Just an alternative to cable and nothing more. Why anyone would "admire" a company that is just out to make a buck is beyond me. I don't admire *any* company. There isn't a single one that cares about me, just the bottom line. Everything in life is choosing the lesser of evils. If cable around here can ever compete on price and programming then I will consider them. If Uverse can ever get their heads out of the sand and provide more then one HD stream (even two isn't enough) then I will consider them.



> The fact remains that most of the Tivo users prefer the Tivo's UI.


Well duh. Of course since Tivo has less then 10% of the DVR market it really doesn't matter if Tivo users prefer the Tivo UI now does it. That other 90% have probably never even seen a real Tivo. All DVRs are "Tivo" afterall.



> You can try to drag the Tivo units into the reliability issue. However, we have no idea how many of those problems have been related to Direct. On the other hand, we continue to see thread after thread after thread of problems with the reliability of the HR2x.


Read the Series 3 Tivo forum much? I just dropped in there to check on switched video progress and man there are a lot of threads in there about reliability problems including missed recordings and lockups. Hmmmmmm. Interesting.



> And of course the funny thing to a lot of us Tivo users is how you folks defend a company that has turned it's nose on the customer. Instead, you seem to bend over a little further and get ready for the next onslaught.


Here is the thing you just don't get. Perhaps they turned their nose up to *you*. But how can you say they turned their nose up to me or anyone else? I get the programming I want at a better price then anyone else and I have a DVR that works. Thus, I am happy.

Great, you think they are bending over everyone. But that is not the case. If I went to cable, with my cable choice, then I'd be bending over (paying way more for less programming). But I certainly don't claim that cable is bending you over. So get off your high horse and simply realize that while DirecTV isn't for you, DirecTV *is* a great provider for others (17 million others).

But hey, I know I'm typing this to a brick wall because you've been told this for over a year and you never listen. Only RS4 can be right and anyone that chooses something other then him is getting the shaft. Again, it's a riot, thank you for todays entertainment.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

shibby191 said:


> Hmmmm, I never viewed DirecTV that way. Just an alternative to cable and nothing more. Why anyone would "admire" a company that is just out to make a buck is beyond me. I don't admire *any* company. There isn't a single one that cares about me, just the bottom line. Everything in life is choosing the lesser of evils. If cable around here can ever compete on price and programming then I will consider them. If Uverse can ever get their heads out of the sand and provide more then one HD stream (even two isn't enough) then I will consider them.
> 
> Well duh. Of course since Tivo has less then 10% of the DVR market it really doesn't matter if Tivo users prefer the Tivo UI now does it. That other 90% have probably never even seen a real Tivo. All DVRs are "Tivo" afterall.
> 
> ...


Boy for someone who doesn't 'admire' any company and who says that Direct is 'the lesser of 2 evils', you sure spend a lot of time defending them. Hmm, maybe it's the extra cash coming your way these days... seems to me you guys must be on some kind of rotation to 'look after things' over here


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

RS4 said:


> Boy for someone who doesn't 'admire' any company and who says that Direct is 'the lesser of 2 evils', you sure spend a lot of time defending them. Hmm, maybe it's the extra cash coming your way these days... seems to me you guys must be on some kind of rotation to 'look after things' over here


And how much is the cable company shaving off your bill every month?

How much does TiVo pay you to AstroTurf for them?

How much does the stock value have to go up or avoid going down in a day for you to keep your positiion as their mouthpiece here?

(e.g., try looking in the mirror there....)


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Boy for someone who doesn't 'admire' any company and who says that Direct is 'the lesser of 2 evils', you sure spend a lot of time defending them. Hmm, maybe it's the extra cash coming your way these days... seems to me you guys must be on some kind of rotation to 'look after things' over here


And is TIVO is paying you how much to tot their products?

FYI - unlike you, I do not "admire" any company, not worth the effort nor is there any ROI in it. As long as the company in general delievers what I want and at a price point that seems reasonable it has my business. My admiration quotent is reserved for people that deserve it, not companies.

In my case also, Directv is the "lesser of 2 evils" the local cable company is junk, their content is junk and missing about 40 percent of the delievered channels that I and my family require, but then again that is the content thing that is not important to you.

The only dealing that I have with them is for internet connection, not becuase I want to but because they are the only broadband provider in the area that can deliever the minimum connection speed and low latency I feel is required for my internet connection. It irks me that they are the only provider available that can deliever what I need but that is how the wolrd crumbles. If ATT ever decides to unbundle their UVerse Fiber from the junk TV offerings, the cable company will be out of the picture in a New York Minute. BTW before you comment, Uverse TV is lacking in content that I require also, so they are not a player at all until they do.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bdowell said:


> And how much is the cable company shaving off your bill every month?
> 
> How much does TiVo pay you to AstroTurf for them?
> 
> ...


Hey, that's a good idea - I wish someone would have mentioned that sooner I think I get a $15.00 discount on my broadband bill because of cable, so I get TV cheaper than with Direct

I guess folks don't like someone pointing out the company they are doing business with is going downhill


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Hey, that's a good idea - I wish someone would have mentioned that sooner I think I get a $15.00 discount on my broadband bill because of cable, so I get TV cheaper than with Direct
> 
> I guess folks don't like someone pointing out the company they are doing business with is going downhill


Do not think you are speaking of directv, if you look at their 1st quarter returns and the call they had on the 7th. Seems like the only companies having issues here are the cable companies. Directv's customerbase and profits have increased dramaticly. Higher profits for shareholders, more HD content, huge increase in subscriber's, lower turn over rate, yup looks like they are having serious prblems


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

why do you guys move from thread to thread arguing about the same thing? does any one really care that RS4 hates Directv anymore? I have no doubt they rue the day they didn't offer him a free trial of the famed HR20 so he could send it back three days later and tell them it was junk.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> why do you guys move from thread to thread arguing about the same thing? does any one really care that RS4 hates Directv anymore?...


Then why do you keep bumping the thread? (oh $#!+, now I bumped it ).

Actually, I love these threads (even though I don't really read them or post very often) because it keeps them out of the real threads on the real forums


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