# HD for DirecTiVo Viewers?



## Fleemo17 (Feb 9, 2006)

If I understand correctly, there's currently no HD DirecTiVo available. If I want to stay loyal to both TiVo and DirecTV, will I be unable to view DirecTV's HD programming on my new HD television? Will my current DirecTiVo only display a SD signal?


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## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

Fleemo17 said:


> If I understand correctly, there's currently no HD DirecTiVo available. If I want to stay loyal to both TiVo and DirecTV, will I be unable to view DirecTV's HD programming on my new HD television? Will my current DirecTiVo only display a SD signal?


All new DTV HD content is MPEG4. The older Directivo HD box reocrds over the air (OTA) and MPEG2 signals. DTV has moved it satellite HD content to MPEG4.

There is strong rumor/confirmation of a new box under development far summer/fall 2009.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Fleemo17 said:


> If I understand correctly, there's currently no HD DirecTiVo available. If I want to stay loyal to both TiVo and DirecTV, will I be unable to view DirecTV's HD programming on my new HD television? Will my current DirecTiVo only display a SD signal?


Directv input = SD only
OTA antenna hookup = Local HD stations if they are broadcasting in HD

Correct, no Directivo unit till at least 4th quarter 2009, giving the mandatory project delay's best guestimate is sometime in 2010 and according to to the only offical press release it will be offered as a optional premium service with the Directv HR2X's being the normal unit


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

sjberra said:


> Correct, no Directivo unit till at least 4th quarter 2009, giving the mandatory project delay's best guestimate is sometime in 2010 and according to to the only offical press release it will be offered as a optional premium service with the Directv HR2X's being the normal unit


What?

These press releases say the second half of 2009:

http://dtv.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=331835

http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/pressroom/pressreleases/2008/pr2008-09-03.html

And further, TiVo CEO Tom Rogers talks about it being an entirely new box here: (it focuses on business and investment, but he's asked about it and he says that both DirecTV and TiVo decided *against* a port/download - like the Comcast deal)

http://www.wsw.com/webcast/nblr2/tivo/

So my point is that if an HD DirecTV/TiVo is what I want, I'd wait until either this thing lands, or more PR is available. Assuming that this product/service will be delayed into 2010, or getting an HR2X now and banking on the solution as being a TiVo port/download, well.... that's like proclaiming that DirecTV and TiVo would never partner again. You just can't assume anything with these two.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

20TIL6 said:


> What?
> 
> These press releases say the second half of 2009:
> 
> ...


What sjberra said was this, I'll translate: The press release said 2nd half 2009. But when has either Tivo or DirecTV actually delivered something on time? 1st half 2010 is more realistic knowing the long history of both companies. If it actually comes out on time then bonus, but it would be nearly a first for both. 

And yes, it will be a premium product. The HR2x will be the "base" DVR you get, no extra fee other then the standard DVR fee. The new HD DirecTivo will be a "premium" product which will cost an extra fee (no matter if it's a separate box or a software upgrade) should you want it.

So he didn't really go against much of what you just said.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

shibby191 said:


> But when has either Tivo or DirecTV actually delivered something on time? 1st half 2010 is more realistic knowing the long history of both companies. If it actually comes out on time then bonus, but it would be nearly a first for both.


Actually, the TiVo HD was surprisingly released pretty quickly after its PR. I want to say it was within maybe 6 months. I know I was surprised at how timely it was.

And DTV has been pretty quick with the HR2X line. 20, then 21, 22, now the 23?

All that said, I think the technical issues are very small, if there are any at all. Back when DTV went with NDS for the R15, didn't TiVo have a new, lower cost, MPEG4 DVR on deck for DirecTV? And DirecTV (Murdoch) went with NDS? I remember reading that.

Anyway, I think a new box would be faster to market than a port/download to the HR2X. Just based upon what is already in place. That's just my opinion, and Rogers mentioned the new box/software port issue during that speaking engagement.

Another clue is in the filed TiVo filed 8K (excerpt):

DIRECTV is also obligated to annual marketing commitments, including significant cross-channel promotion of the high definition DIRECTV DVR with TiVo service to be developed by TiVo. *Further, the new agreement extends each partys covenant not to assert its patents against the other party with respect to each companys products and services deployed prior to the expiration of the agreement, subject to limited exceptions.* In addition, going forward, DIRECTV is entitled to most favored customer terms as compared with other multi-channel video distributors in the United States to whom TiVo grants a license to distribute certain TiVo technology in the future. DIRECTV has the right to terminate the agreement in the event we are the subject of certain change of control transactions involving certain companies. *We also have the right to terminate the agreement, including the patent covenant, if we are unable to deliver the product within a specified time period due to non-TiVo issues.*


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

20TIL6 said:


> Actually, the TiVo HD was surprisingly released pretty quickly after its PR. I want to say it was within maybe 6 months. I know I was surprised at how timely it was.


So if this new product is as timely as the HR10 it would be released in the first half of 2010, which is what sjberra said.



> And DTV has been pretty quick with the HR2X line. 20, then 21, 22, now the 23?


And as much as I like my HR20 that I got almost as soon as they came out they had more than a few glitches. Perhaps it shouldn't have been rushed to market.



> All that said, I think the technical issues are very small, if there are any at all. Back when DTV went with NDS for the R15, didn't TiVo have a new, lower cost, MPEG4 DVR on deck for DirecTV? And DirecTV (Murdoch) went with NDS? I remember reading that.
> 
> Anyway, I think a new box would be faster to market than a port/download to the HR2X. Just based upon what is already in place. That's just my opinion, and Rogers mentioned the new box/software port issue during that speaking engagement.


I hope you are right in your predictions but I have my doubts. I would guess 1st half of 2010 as well. Only time will tell. 

ETA: I would be surprised if this new HD Tivo came out in 2009 but then again I was very surprised to see DirecTV go back to TiVo at all so it could very well happen.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

20TIL6 said:


> Actually, the TiVo HD was surprisingly released pretty quickly after its PR. I want to say it was within maybe 6 months. I know I was surprised at how timely it was.
> 
> And DTV has been pretty quick with the HR2X line. 20, then 21, 22, now the 23?
> 
> ...


Comcast Tivo box....


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

sjberra said:


> Comcast Tivo box....


No doubt lessons have been learned over that deal.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I suspect those that think it will be delayed until 2010 are the same people who thought Directv would never reach a new agreement with Tivo.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

20TIL6 said:


> No doubt lessons have been learned over that deal.


learned - probably not. we are talking abot corporate world, look at AIG

Still doubt it will hit "second half of 2009" the design and rollout HR10 is a great example of this thought and implementation process also.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Cudahy said:


> I suspect those that think it will be delayed until 2010 are the same people who thought Directv would never reach a new agreement with Tivo.


Maybe, maybie not, but in the long run it does not really matter. Does not matter if they get it out on time or 10 years late, they are all still way begind on the technology curve as far as home theatre equipment go.

would prefer that they s-can all the dedicate DVR development and concentrate on distributed video through a media center device. Neither the HR10's nor the HR2X's that I own/lease can hold a candle to my media center setup, 14 TB of raid 5 movie and video storage serving up video and audio to a couple of HD tv's and a few SD TV's.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Cudahy said:


> I suspect those that think it will be delayed until 2010 are the same people who thought Directv would never reach a new agreement with Tivo.


Actually no. It's people who have looked at the history of both companies and see that they never release anything on time. Besides, isn't the key thing that it's being done at all? If it's "late" then so be it. More should be known at CES.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

20TIL6 said:


> And DTV has been pretty quick with the HR2X line. 20, then 21, 22, now the 23?


Actually, DirecTV was more then 6 months behind on the HR20 release. They were rolling out HD locals and people had no way to record them. They released it late and it still wasn't ready.

Tivo was late on the HR10 and was late on the Comcast box and other releases as well.

Again, there is no "hate" here, just a statement of fact that both DirecTV and Tivo are almost always late when releasing a product so if that extra 6 months or so actually means something to you in your decision you should keep that history in mind. That's all. Funny how people get all cranky when the history of both companies are brought up.


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## Fleemo17 (Feb 9, 2006)

Thanks for the input here, folks. I'll post a follow-up question in a new thread.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

sjberra said:


> ...they are all still way begind on the technology curve as far as home theatre equipment go.
> 
> would prefer that they s-can all the dedicate DVR development and concentrate on distributed video through a media center device...


Was this just an opportunity for you to brag about how your's is bigger? 

As far as a business plan that targets casual-to-avid viewers and affluent subs, they are right on target with the technology curve and are probably leading in a number of areas. Setups like you have are rare, and therefore not a real profit center for them to develop towards. The HR2x is one-size-fits-all for a very good reason. And BTW, it will have your scary distributed video option very soon.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> Was this just an opportunity for you to brag about how your's is bigger?
> 
> As far as a business plan that targets casual-to-avid viewers and affluent subs, they are right on target with the technology curve and are probably leading in a number of areas. Setups like you have are rare, and therefore not a real profit center for them to develop towards. The HR2x is one-size-fits-all for a very good reason. And BTW, it will have your scary distributed video option very soon.


Actually no it won;t not looking for MRV, it is still to limited and outdated. the usb pc vaporware that directv has shows will probably never hit the streets, and it is limited by the small bandwidth capabilities of usb 2.0 to pass video. Only point that gives any hope is Windows 7 has drivers, but so did the upgrade ti Vista Media center for a long period of it's development and testing until they where pulled at the last minute,

/rofl you should see the distribution box I take care of at my place of employement, the one I have setup was the proof of concept for the project.

My point is tivo/directv, they are still the same just different front ends and are way behind the curve on development, both companies have the ability to do things up better for the same development cost, they just limit things on purpose.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

sjberra said:


> Actually no it won;t not looking for MRV, it is still to limited and outdated. the usb pc vaporware that directv has shows will probably never hit the streets, and it is limited by the small bandwidth capabilities of usb 2.0 to pass video. Only point that gives any hope is Windows 7 has drivers, but so did the upgrade ti Vista Media center for a long period of it's development and testing until they where pulled at the last minute,
> 
> /rofl you should see the distribution box I take care of at my place of employement, the one I have setup was the proof of concept for the project.
> 
> My point is tivo/directv, they are still the same just different front ends and are way behind the curve on development, both companies have the ability to do things up better for the same development cost, they just limit things on purpose.


One thing DirecTV is doing is going with common standards like DLNA compliance. So they are building up the base and many 3rd party developers can come on in and capitalize on it. So right now with DirecTV your HR receiver is a server which can stream it's recorded shows to a PC or via MRV to another DirecTV receiver (just one in testing right now, see DBSTalk CE for details) which will then soon go to all receivers. On top of this being DLNA compliant you can actually see your playlist on a PS3 for example, just can't play it because of DRM. But it also allows the other way using something like PlayOn to stream Hulu and Netflix to your DVR. I think it's a much better way to go then the closed Tivo system, although it's certainly taken them a while to even get to this point. It will be interesting to see which way it goes on this new HD DirecTivo but from the press release it appears that that the new Tivo will need to work on the DirecTV network infrastructure thus would be DirecTV's way. So this new Tivo will need quite a bit of internal rework on the software side which Tivo hasn't done before. It's not this quick "plug and play" as some people think it will be.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Even if it is released on time in late 2009, has anyone ever released a new DVR that you would have wanted to own in the first year it was out? Certainly not the HR10, HR20, S3, ...


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I bought a HDTivo 10-250 the month it came out and have been very, very happy with it. I kept it active when I got a free upgrade of the DirectvHD a year ago. I hope to merge the best qualities of both of them by the end of next year.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

shibby191 said:


> One thing DirecTV is doing is going with common standards like DLNA compliance. So they are building up the base and many 3rd party developers can come on in and capitalize on it. So right now with DirecTV your HR receiver is a server which can stream it's recorded shows to a PC or via MRV to another DirecTV receiver (just one in testing right now, see DBSTalk CE for details) which will then soon go to all receivers. On top of this being DLNA compliant you can actually see your playlist on a PS3 for example, just can't play it because of DRM. But it also allows the other way using something like PlayOn to stream Hulu and Netflix to your DVR. I think it's a much better way to go then the closed Tivo system, although it's certainly taken them a while to even get to this point. It will be interesting to see which way it goes on this new HD DirecTivo but from the press release it appears that that the new Tivo will need to work on the DirecTV network infrastructure thus would be DirecTV's way. So this new Tivo will need quite a bit of internal rework on the software side which Tivo hasn't done before. It's not this quick "plug and play" as some people think it will be.


Small step in the right direction, problem still is that you are dependant upon the limited technology of the DVR in it's current form. streaming to a pc is a nice toy and a good first step but it has a long way to go still. I already stream Netflix to the PS3 in the system, but again fairly limited.

The HD set I have already has a DLNA based system installed on it, it recognizes my media center setup and allows me to grab what I have on the SAN and play it, the other sets utilie other type of media extenders, from xbox 360, a ps3 and Linksys's DMA2200's.

The only thing I can't push through this setup is the Directv, at least not true HD @ 1080P/24 or at the moment 1080I. I already have 3 tuner cards in the main box and there are 3 standard recievers attached pushing SD video to other sets. It allows me to record the shows on the SAN for later playback

I already realize what I am doing is way ahead of the curve for Directv, but I have the advantage of using my setup as a pilot program and a development sandbox for the system I take care of at work. I also know that the end system I would love to see Directv work on is a pipe dream and will probably never see the light of day to the general public or probably even the development labs.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Even if it is released on time in late 2009, has anyone ever released a new DVR that you would have wanted to own in the first year it was out? Certainly not the HR10, HR20, S3, ...


I think it is always prudent to wait until things settle. I won't try a new restaurant for 6 weeks until they get their bearings, for instance. Once the new Tivo appears I would want to wait at least a couple of months to see how others are doing with it, as well.

But I'm not sure I get your point. The HR10 was solid as a rock right out of the box. About the only problem was a few had physical HDMI issues. The S3, also pretty solid from the first. It's problems were mainly problems that CC had complying with CC standards. The HR20 is a good example of a DVR that took time to mature, and most cable and FIOS DVRs fall into that category, as well as DISH who had some real P's OS up until the VIP-622, which is still not really much of a DVR, IMHO.

But Tivo is a mature platform, to say the least. A new Tivo that is also a DirecTivo builds on that huge asset of their preeminent and unmatched experience making the best DVRs anyone has ever made, as well as on a significant history of partnership with DTV. They are not reinventing the wheel, here. DVRs are modular, and most of what will become the new Tivo has existed for some time. The OS will be the hardest, and even most of that is already written. What is not will be an addition to the existing bedrock Tivo OS technology.

I think there will be few if any problems with the new Tivo, but I will wait a time to be sure. After all, pioneers get the arrows, but settlers end up with the land.

I think if Tivo has any problem, it will be that the speed with which the HR2x has improved may make it hard to beat by then, especially since DTV has the Replay folks in house. It might be difficult for Tivo to stand on anything other than the Tivo name and reputation. A "premium" DVR has to be not only be perceived to be significantly better, it has to actually deliver. Even if it came out right now, it would have to be one hell of a DVR to compete with today's HR2x. It will have to be a lot more than a HR10 with MPEG-4 capability, especially with another 6-9 months of seasoning in store for the HR2x, which is the fastest-improving platform, bar none, in DVR history.

What we have is the win-win situation of DTV having set up terrific competition between arguably the best DVR crew in the world (Tivo), and their in-house crew (which is probably a close second to the Tivo crew) who has their current DVR hotly competing with Tivo. Once both have MPEG-4 capability it will be interesting to see who has the better DVR when the Tivo appears in 2009, and the good news is DTV customers will have a choice between what will probably be the two best platforms out there, with next best (from other vendors) being a distant third.


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## tucsonbill (Aug 11, 2004)

sjberra said:


> Directv input = SD only


Odd. I guess mine is broken. I still get some HD. (Yeah, I know it's going away -- maybe a better statement woudl be DirecTV input = SD only going forward.) (Yeah, I know it's HD Lite)
(Yeah I know that I'm an ******* for being so picky -- I just believe that truth is truth and almost truth is false.)


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

tucsonbill said:


> Odd. I guess mine is broken. I still get some HD. (Yeah, I know it's going away -- maybe a better statement woudl be DirecTV input = SD only going forward.) (Yeah, I know it's HD Lite)
> (Yeah I know that I'm an ******* for being so picky -- I just believe that truth is truth and almost truth is false.)


Temporarily - HD for the HR10 MPEG2 is going away RSN

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=404012

The question that was placed was

"If I want to stay loyal to both TiVo and DirecTV, will I be unable to view DirecTV's HD programming on my new HD television?"

as in the future of the device, at least that is the way the statement can be interpted. Currently you can get a few MPEG2 HD channel on the HR10 as compared to the HR2X series box.


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## tucsonbill (Aug 11, 2004)

sjberra said:


> The question that was placed was
> 
> "If I want to stay loyal to both TiVo and DirecTV, will I be unable to view DirecTV's HD programming on my new HD television?"


Okay. You can focus on the part of the original post you want to -- the part that I focused on (and you clearly didn't) was

"If I understand correctly, there's currently no HD DirecTiVo available."


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

tucsonbill said:


> Okay. You can focus on the part of the original post you want to -- the part that I focused on (and you clearly didn't) was
> 
> "If I understand correctly, there's currently no HD DirecTiVo available."


whatever - bottom line is if you want to stay with Tivo - then your choices are

1. go to a cable company and get a standalone
2. use Directv's current offering of a DVR and wait until the proposed unit hits the streets and pay what ever costs are associated with it
3. do nothing, watch OTA HD with the the HR10, watch SD through Directv and wait for option 2 to become available.

Personally I have no preference, both the Tivo unit and the Directv unit is so far behind the technology curve that they are just semi-intelligent boxes that do one thing, and struggle at that. the interface's and capablities on both boxes is archaic. Would prefer them to develop a set 3rd option that lets the end user plug into the technology that is available with media HTPC's and junk the stand alone boxes for those that want it.


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## tucsonbill (Aug 11, 2004)

sjberra said:


> whatever - bottom line is if you want to stay with Tivo - then your choices are
> 
> 1. go to a cable company and get a standalone
> 2. use Directv's current offering of a DVR and wait until the proposed unit hits the streets and pay what ever costs are associated with it
> ...


Okay, let me see if I've got it right:

First, after I post saying that "...I know it's going away." You respond "Temporarily - HD for the HR10 MPEG2 is going away..."

Then, when I respond to clarify my post, you decide that I must be a TIVO supporter.

You said "whatever.."

You seem to think that my basic issue is that I love TIVO. Actually my basic issue, as I clearly stated is truth. TIVO is not the end all and be all. Neither is the D* HDDVR. (although both are pretty darn good machines.) I have both, and an HTPC. If I thought one was the end of the story then I wouldn't have the others. Basically, the HTPC is the best answer for a very small segment of the TV viewing public. I'm glad that you think it's the best answer -- but for most it's not even a blip on the radar.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

tucsonbill said:


> Okay, let me see if I've got it right:
> 
> First, after I post saying that "...I know it's going away." You respond "Temporarily - HD for the HR10 MPEG2 is going away..."
> 
> ...


Guess I misundersttod you statement in the first post

"If I want to stay loyal to both TiVo and DirecTV"

You would be surprised just how large that "very small segment of the TV viewing public" is, do a little research on the various companies that build specialty PC's just for the HTPC market and doing very well in this economicly poor market.

Have a good day today and a better day tomorrow


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## wpshell (Aug 19, 2008)

Since you guys seem to have generated a fairly interesting discussion on the merits of dedicated boxes (e.g. Tivo) versus an HTPC platform, maybe you can help me out here.
I currently have four zippered SD DTivo's. I love em and can't imagine living without MRV.
I have put off buying an HDTV because of the high cost and DTV/Tivo situation. The high cost issue has pretty much gone away now and it appears that DTV and Tivo are getting together again, so that issue is going away. So I'm planning to get a nice TV RSN.
To bridge the HD gap between now and whenever the new HD DTivo appears I have started looking at various options. One thing I considered was throwing together a HTPC with a couple of tuners to get OTA HD. When I started doing research I was surprised to learn a few things, as follows: (If I'm wrong on any of these, please correct me.)
1. I can't use Cable Cards with HTPC. 
2. Because of 1. I can't record HD cable programming on a HTPC, right?
3. I can't record HD DTV programming.
4. Due to DRM I can't legally record DVD's on an HTPC.

So, basically, I can only record OTA HD programming (plus home videos) on a HTPC, right? If that is true, then I don't think that a HTPC gets you very far. You still need a dedicated box to record HD material that you can't get OTA, like ESPN. 
The current stand alone Tivo's offer a lot of nice features such as Tivo to go, and content from the web. If the new DTivo unit provides all of those features, then I'll sign on for the long haul. If that is the case, then what would I be missing by not having a HTPC?


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## BajaBoy (Dec 9, 2008)

IMO the best thing to do is just take the HD DVR from DirecTV and deal with it and it's crappy operation until the new Tivo unit comes out late next year or early 2010.


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## tucsonbill (Aug 11, 2004)

sjberra said:


> Guess I misundersttod you statement in the first post
> 
> "If I want to stay loyal to both TiVo and DirecTV"


You may or may not have misunderstood -- but it wasn't my statement.


> You would be surprised just how large that "very small segment of the TV viewing public" is....


 No, not really. You would be surprised to know what my definition of "very small" is. (Hint -- it could be those of us who are early adopters and techno geeks.) HTPCs may be mainsteam one day, but they're not now.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

tucsonbill said:


> You may or may not have misunderstood -- but it wasn't my statement. No, not really. You would be surprised to know what my definition of "very small" is. (Hint -- it could be those of us who are early adopters and techno geeks.) HTPCs may be mainsteam one day, but they're not now.


The HTPC interface is a dead issue now since the officially canned the project, sad guess they want to stay behind the technology curve forever.

Wonder what other projects are going to be canned due to cutbacks.

I guess we have a different view of what small actually is - deal with 4 different home theatre vendors here for personal and work - all of them have a 4 to 5 week lead time for the installation of HTPC based theatres.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

sjberra said:


> I guess we have a different view of what small actually is - deal with 4 different home theatre vendors here for personal and work - all of them have a 4 to 5 week lead time for the installation of HTPC based theatres.


Interesting. I don't know a single person that has an HTPC in their home theater and most are like me, techy geeks. Oh well.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

shibby191 said:


> Interesting. I don't know a single person that has an HTPC in their home theater and most are like me, techy geeks. Oh well.


Know a number of people that have them, and most of them fall into teh Joe Sixpack realm when it comes to PC's, there are numerous forums and sites that are dedicated to them with a huge number of viewers, read the green button website to see just how wide spread they are.


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