# What exactly are the Tivo service fees for?



## barrett14 (Aug 21, 2013)

One thing I never understood about Tivo - what service are they providing that demands these high fees? 

The only thing I see them doing is providing a TV Guide to the box. The new Tivo Stream also requires a monthly fee when it does the exact same thing as Slingbox, which requires no monthly fees. 

I honestly don't have any problem paying a monthly fee as long as I feel like the service I am getting justifies it - but I just don't see it in this situation.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

There are a million threads on this. But it has been a while, so a good time for some arguing.

Its my understanding that four main things are in the fees: Guide data, subsidy for cost of the box, software, and revenue.

Lifetime is worth it. Just do it.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

TiVo provides the guide data which is an ongoing cost for them (I assume). TiVo also provides SW updates for some amount of time.

Other than that it is just how their business works. If you don't want to pay the monthly fee then buy lifetime and assume the cost of the product plus lifetime is simply the final cost of the unit. If that is too expensive then don't buy it. I personally enjoy the TiVo enough that I own three units with lifetime and have been very happy with the situation (though I'd be even happier if it were cheaper but that goes for anything I'm buying).


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## barrett14 (Aug 21, 2013)

Ya I bought the lifetime with the new Roamio because to me it was still worth it, even though I feel like it is very over priced. 

I understand that software updates etc... cost money, but plenty of companies provide software updates on products that don't require fees. 

I wish that Tivo had a decent competitor... That, more than anything, would drive costs down.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

barrett14 said:


> One thing I never understood about Tivo - what service are they providing that demands these high fees?
> 
> The only thing I see them doing is providing a TV Guide to the box. The new Tivo Stream also requires a monthly fee when it does the exact same thing as Slingbox, which requires no monthly fees.
> 
> I honestly don't have any problem paying a monthly fee as long as I feel like the service I am getting justifies it - but I just don't see it in this situation.


The Stream does not require a service fee.

The bottom line is TiVo uses service fees to make money. They have chosen a model where they don't sell the boxes for enough money to be profitable and use the service fee to compensate for that.

If you don't like paying a monthly service fee they do allow you to pay the fee in full upfront, it is called lifetime (of the box it is bought for) service.

When I evaluate how much a TiVo DVR cost I just use the lifetime fee to come up with a number to evaluate.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

barrett14 said:


> Ya I bought the lifetime with the new Roamio because to me it was still worth it, even though I feel like it is very over priced.
> 
> I understand that software updates etc... cost money, but plenty of companies provide software updates on products that don't require fees.
> 
> I wish that Tivo had a decent competitor... That, more than anything, would drive costs down.


DVRs in general cost allot of money. If you would like to see a comparison of the 3 year costs of a 3 TV whole home system using a TiVo Roamio DVR & Mini's versus TWC in my area look here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9775339#post9775339​


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Consider it a licensing fee. You are essentially leasing their software.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Guide data is free to the end user. You can download it and access it without paying for the Tivo service. Tivo does have to pay for guide data, but they recover the cost in the Tivo fee they charge to licensed subscribers. Tivo primarily charges you for licensing their software. When you activate your Tivo, you essentially turn on the software so that it allows you to use the various DVR features (i.e., the ability to record, set up season passes, use the search function, etc.). 

IIRC, most Tivos will allow you to use the tuners at no charge for viewing live TV. You should be able to activate a cablecard and use the Tivo as a HD tuner without paying for the Tivo service. You just can't record anything without paying the fee. Think of the Tivo software as freeware without all of the features available until you purchase the license key. You can use some of the features, but it's basically crippled until you pay the full fee.

Newer Tivos are heavily subsidized by Tivo. They sell them to you cheap because they know that they will be able to recover the cost of the box by locking you into a contract, much the same way that DirecTV does it, except that DirecTV leases the hardware and doesn't sell it outright anymore (although I believe you do have the option to purchase it).


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

barrett14 said:


> The only thing I see them doing is providing a TV Guide to the box.


I won't address the other issues like the subsidy of the hardware, because people have already done that.

You're paying for a service. Just like the water company, the electric company, the gas company, phone companies.

Just because other people provide guide data that you can download for free somewhere else doesn't mean the guide data is "free". Someone, somewhere, has to pay for it. Servers cost money to build and run.

Personally? I'm an old fart, and I used to record stuff with a VCR. I used to go through TV Guide or online listings and set up all my recordings by hand. You know when the timeslot changes for a show, because the network decided to move it that week? I had to keep track of all that stuff and change the recording, by hand.

Now that I have TiVo, I'm essentially paying for an assistant to do all that work for me. I think I'm getting good value for what I pay, considering that the TiVo can find shows for me that I don't know about. That's not possible when you are setting up your recordings by hand.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

barrett14 said:


> One thing I never understood about Tivo - what service are they providing that demands these high fees?
> 
> The only thing I see them doing is providing a TV Guide to the box. The new Tivo Stream also requires a monthly fee when it does the exact same thing as Slingbox, which requires no monthly fees.
> 
> I honestly don't have any problem paying a monthly fee as long as I feel like the service I am getting justifies it - but I just don't see it in this situation.


An analogy would be getting an iPhone for $199. It costs your phone company a lot more than that, but they make up for the difference through their monthly fees.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Another point worth making is that it's a sliding subsidy... when you buy a Roamio Pro, TiVo is making more off of recurring or Lifetime fees than when buying the Plus or Base model. I'd say the Plus is the sweet spot in terms of cost/benefit with the option of later updating the drive. My Mini, at $250 ($100 hardware + $150 Lifetime), is indeed overpriced. But I paid it anyway.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

murgatroyd said:


> Personally? I'm an old fart, and I used to record stuff with a VCR.


Hey, I represent that remark.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

barrett14 said:


> One thing I never understood about Tivo - what service are they providing that demands these high fees?
> 
> The only thing I see them doing is providing a TV Guide to the box. The new Tivo Stream also requires a monthly fee when it does the exact same thing as Slingbox, which requires no monthly fees.
> 
> I honestly don't have any problem paying a monthly fee as long as I feel like the service I am getting justifies it - but I just don't see it in this situation.


The thing that makes a TiVo a TiVo is the TiVo software, and the subscription is the price to use the software.

The hardware is the loss leader to get you to pay them to use the software.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

unitron said:


> The thing that makes a TiVo a TiVo is the TiVo software, and the subscription is the price to use the software.
> 
> The hardware is the loss leader to get you to pay them to use the software.


TiVo could have just done a single price model, like when you get lifetime service, but they broke up the pricing for, IMHO, for two reasons #1 let the customer choose monthly or Lifetime and #2 it cuts down on the retail markup, if Best buy say sold a Mini for $99 they would pay TiVo about $70 for the Mini, if Best Buy had to sell the Mini for $250 they would pay TiVo about $180 for the Mini, so in one case TiVo get a gross income from a Mini of $220 in the other case TiVo only gets $180. Also tax is different in some states, in CT the tax on TiVo type of service is only 1% and 6.35% on the hardware, so if I purchase a Mini from TiVo directly with lifetime my cost with tax is only $258.85. I think it also helps us with resale as lifetime service never goes bad so one can sell your used TiVo for close to the Lifetime cost (if you have Lifetime on it).


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I think the price for the fees or lifetime is too much, that is why I always buy used lifetime or evaluation models for cheap. Or I buy used Series 1 Tivos with lifetime activated before January 20th 2000 and transfer the lifetime to Premiere, or now to a Romeo (where forth are thee ) But I also use non lifetimed TiVos as 1/2 hour time shift machines that I leave on the two channels I usually watch for news. Then I can fast forward through the commercials and drivel about the Queen or some bus that fell off a roadway in India.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

barrett14 said:


> I wish that Tivo had a decent competitor... That, more than anything, would drive costs down.


TiVo has competition. It's called the cablebox DVR which can be had for a few bucks a month. And TiVo has been hurt heavily by it - though less so since TiVo owns a number of core DVR patents.

OTOH, given how crappy cablebox DVRs are, that tells you what you get "for free" - basically they ship something that sorta-kinda works, because the cable companies don't want to spend a penny on the software, so anyone that can provide them with the necessary customizations the cheapest get it. If it records, it's a miracle.

But effectively, the cable companies killed 3rd party DVRs - see what happened to the ReplayTV - it didn't keep up with CableCARD and rapidly got out of date.

And no, guide data is NOT free. If you look at third party guide data sellers (for old ReplayTV units, Windows Media Center, etc), they're charging $10+/month for the data per device. The reason is the source of the guide data does a lot of work to keep the data organized (the data often comes to the source companies (like Tribune/Zap2it or TV Guide) like the grid you see in the papers - they have to digitize the grid, cross-reference the episodes and descriptions and add in other identifiers), so they allow people to subscribe to it for a fee. It's just our existing cable fees, etc. pay for that information.

Of course, TiVo pays a lot less because they're not doing subscriptions for a few thousand users - they're doing bulk licensing.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

barrett14 said:


> I wish that Tivo had a decent competitor... That, more than anything, would drive costs down.


Tivo has lots of competitors. Every cable and satellite provider has their own DVRs. This is extremely attractive to some people because they don't have to deal with a box they own. If it breaks they just exchange it for a new one. No upfront costs to buy the hardware and the monthly fees are on a par with what Tivo charges, and sometimes slightly less. Of course, they don't have the same features as a Tivo, but these devices are aimed at customers that either don't care about the extra bells and whistles a Tivo provides or they just don't know enough about them to make an informed decision.

Another chief competitor is the HTPC. This is geared more towards the enthusiast, but it's not the daunting device that many make it out to be. Most Tivo owners just want a device that acts as an appliance. The argument can easily be made that a well configured HTPC is exactly that. The only maintenance I perform on mine is dealing with the monthly Windows updates that Microsoft sends out as well as an occasional driver update. Other than that, there's really nothing else that I need to do to keep it running except maybe an occasional reboot, which I seldom have to do. It's every bit as reliable as the few dozen Tivos I've owned over the years.

The best part is that a HTPC is configurable to be just about anything you want whereas a Tivo just comes with whatever it comes with. There are no monthly fees associated with a HTPC over and above what you pay for your TV service plus the cost of a cablecard rental. Guide data doesn't cost you anything and a Windows 7 or 8 license is far less expensive than Tivo's lifetime service. FWIW, Tivo is still playing catchup with features HTPC owners have enjoyed for years.

Unfortunately, neither of the above has driven Tivo's costs down for the consumer. If anything, the lifetime fee is 4 or 5 times what it was originally and the monthly fees have gone up considerably. The hardware may be subsidized, but you're just paying for it in longer installments.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

jrtroo said:


> Lifetime is worth it. Just do it.


We've had this conversation in about a million threads, but it just isn't. You have to keep the same box with no desire to upgrade for almost 3 years to make your money back and after that your profit is tiny, because it's a discounted 12.99 a month (how much is a payment of 12.99 worth 3 years from now?). No one in finance would advise you to take that bet. Which is why TiVo sets the price where they do.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> We've had this conversation in about a million threads, but it just isn't. You have to keep the same box with no desire to upgrade for almost 3 years to make your money back and after that your profit is tiny, because it's a discounted 12.99 a month (how much is a payment of 12.99 worth 3 years from now?). No one in finance would advise you to take that bet. Which is why TiVo sets the price where they do.


Worrying about the time value of money right now is a waist of time for most people and it is not 3 years before you are head with lifetime it is only 31 months for people getting MSD.

If you like paying monthly please do so, it helps TiVo be more profitable and helps assure they will be around a long time to keep providing me my lifetime service, which has long ago reduced the cost of service on all my units to significantly below the cost of having actually paid monthly on them.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> Worrying about the time value of money right now is a waist of time for most people and it is not 3 years before you are head with lifetime it is only 31 months for people getting MSD.
> 
> If you like paying monthly please do so, it helps TiVo be more profitable and helps assure they will be around a long time to keep providing me my lifetime service, which has long ago reduced the cost of service on all my units to significantly below the cost of having actually paid monthly on them.


In that case, give me 10G right now and I'll give it back to you in 3 years. Since TVM doesn't matter, right?

31 months is over 2.5 years and I said "almost 3 years." Don't be a pedant. No one likes a pedant.

edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> In that case, give me 10G right now and I'll give it back to you in 3 years. Since TVM doesn't matter, right?


I have lots of money sitting a zero interest bank account and some in accounts under .05% so no the TVM does not matter.



Grakthis said:


> 31 months is over 2.5 years and I said "almost 3 years." Don't be a pedant. No one likes a pedant.


 It is not a minor detail that you post incorrect information to try support an opinion as fact.



Grakthis said:


> edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.


Yes it is. You have no way of proving your statement (and I have no way of disproving it). It is your opinion and I do not agree with you.

The factual information I have is my own experience which is: 
Series 2 TiVo lifetime service cost now under $3.15/mo
TiVo HD lifetime service cost now under $4.70/mo plus unit is worth about $300 more because of lifetime
Series 3 lifetime service costs now under $4.30/mo and unit is worth about $300 because of lifetime service
Premiere lifetime service cost now under $5.90/mo and unit is worth about $350 more because of lifetime service
Like I said go ahead and pay more if you want too.


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## waterchange (Jun 29, 2010)

Tivo lifetime = smart buyer. But it's a huge expense that if you can't afford, you go monthly. If you really think paying monthly is the better decision, go for it.

Regarding an HTPC, I could build one. My wife wouldn't be able to do that but she can buy, setup, and operate a Tivo. My in-laws certainly wouldn't have a clue how to build/procure an HTPC (let alone know what a "reboot" is) but they can use a Tivo. I could set one up for these folks and friends but I wouldn't want to. Nor would I want the support headaches, minor or not, that these folks would encounter. It takes skill/expertise/knowledge to build these things. Once you have something working stably, I'm sure a non-techie can operate an HTPC. It's getting to that point is why they will always be a niche market.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

waterchange said:


> Tivo lifetime = smart buyer. But it's a huge expense that if you can't afford, you go monthly. If you really think paying monthly is the better decision, go for it.
> 
> Regarding an HTPC, I could build one. My wife wouldn't be able to do that but she can buy, setup, and operate a Tivo. My in-laws certainly wouldn't have a clue how to build/procure an HTPC (let alone know what a "reboot" is) but they can use a Tivo. I could set one up for these folks and friends but I wouldn't want to. Nor would I want the support headaches, minor or not, that these folks would encounter. It takes skill/expertise/knowledge to build these things. Once you have something working stably, I'm sure a non-techie can operate an HTPC. It's getting to that point is why they will always be a niche market.


No argument about the HTPC. It's definitely not for everyone and not something you'd necessarily want to give to your in-laws. Tivos are ideal for the non-technically inclined, but then so is the cableco's DVR. Tivo owners tend to fall somewhere in between. They like the convenience and features and don't mind paying a bit extra for them.

My wife is about as inept as they come when dealing with technology. If the TV's on the wrong input she goes ballistic because she can't figure out how to get it working. When I gave up using a Tivo in my home theater I put it in the family room for her to use. When I finally pulled the plug and cancelled the Tivo service I replaced the Tivo with a small form factor HTPC. So far she's been using it with no problems going on almost two years now. Believe me when I tell you, if my wife can use a WMC PC, then anyone can.

OTOH, it's still a PC and issues may crop up on occasion. I've found that as long as you don't use it for surfing the web or for other day-to-day PC functions it keeps humming along without a hitch. A lot of people cringe at the thought of using a PC dedicated for watching TV and movies or listening to music. They think it's either overkill, too expensive, or too complicated when it's actually none of the above. When you consider how many separate components it can replace, it's actually quite inexpensive.

There is a huge misconception about the level of skill required to build a HTPC. If you can replace a hard drive then you can easily build a HTPC. It's no different than putting together a standard desktop PC except that you may add a tuner card or some additional software. Media Center is built into every version of Windows 7, except Home Basic, and is available as an add-on for Windows 8 for about $10. Now, if you really want to add some advanced features, like upconverting standard DVDs for the best picture quality or setting up an alternative media center front end, then things start getting a bit more complex. Sticking with Windows Media Center will keep it simple and easy to set up and use. The great thing about it is that you have lots of choices and can experiment to your heart's content as well as maximize your skillset.

I won't get into the area of sharing TV and movies with other rooms because that's a topic that can create a whole new discussion and is outside the realm of this thread.

In case anyone's interested, Assassin has just made his blog free to the public whereas it used to cost $25 to join. It's got the most detailed tutorials and guides available for building and configuring a HTPC for anything from using it as a DVR to an audiophile quality PC. Here's the link:

http://assassinhtpcblog.com/

For those of you that may be a bit more adventurous, he also has a website dedicated to building media servers. Here's that link:

http://www.assassinserver.com


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> In that case, give me 10G right now and I'll give it back to you in 3 years. Since TVM doesn't matter, right?
> 
> 31 months is over 2.5 years and I said "almost 3 years." Don't be a pedant. No one likes a pedant.
> 
> edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.


If you can sell on E-Bay or such you are dead wrong!! (Except for people that would have to pay a credit card interest of over 20%), I have a Series 2 connected to a cable box (that come with my cable service package) for over 8 years now, no fees. (used in one of my guest bedrooms) The new S5 TiVos should last for the next 10 years or more for DVRing cable TV, there will not be any more advances in the TiVo line of products that will make the S5 obsolete for DVR use. 4K is 10 to 20 years away, if ever, for the retail customer and not needed for the average size HDTV most people are getting. With the S5 dropping in a new hard drive will be less complicated than changing a computer hard drive.
And we are only talking about $400 per TiVo, ($500 for the first TiVo on a new account) not much of a gamble in todays world.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.


It definitely is a debate since you're the one debating it. Just saying it's factual doesn't make it so. I'm pretty sure the average Tivo user on this forum most certainly keeps their Tivos long enough to benefit from the cost of purchasing lifetime service.

Fact: Tivos with lifetime are worth more than Tivos without lifetime. Resale value of non-lifetime Tivos is almost nil unless the Tivo has been upgraded.

Fact: Most Tivo users that purchase lifetime are more likely to keep their Tivos in service long enough to recoup their cost of lifetime service. If they do not keep them then they can easily recover the difference by selling a lifetime unit on ebay.

Fact: Vendors like Weaknees couldn't stay in business if there weren't enough Tivo owners interested in keeping their Tivos alive long enough to benefit from a lifetime plan. That doesn't even take into account the number of Tivo owners that upgrade drives themselves.

Fact: If you keep a Tivo on a month-to-month plan for the life of the Tivo, chances are you'll end up spending more than if you purchased the lifetime service. The only caveat is if it's a 2nd Tivo with MSD, in which case it would take a bit longer to make up the difference (although I believe lifetime is less expensive for the 2nd or 3rd Tivo, etc.).


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## Kolenka (Jan 2, 2013)

lessd said:


> *4K is 10 to 20 years away, if ever,* for the retail customer and not needed for the average size HDTV most people are getting. With the S5 dropping in a new hard drive will be less complicated than changing a computer hard drive.


That's a pretty bold statement to make (emphasis mine). Usually tech that far out isn't purchasable yet. Yet I can go buy a 4K TV if I was really wanting one today. Stuff that upscales or passes through 4K over HDMI is on the market already. What is missing is the content, which is not terribly far behind, maybe a couple years before we start seeing mainstream access to movies. They've already got a mechanism for simulcasting 1080p and 4K that can be used for OTA and Terrestrial broadcast fleshed out.

Now, will it be a TV seller? Ha, no. But over the next 5 years or so, the tech will get cheap enough that you'll probably see 1080p/4K sets for cheap/midrange models like we've seen 720p/1080p for the last few years as 1080p displays have pushed out the older tech from the cheap models.

Personally, I'm not expecting much benefit from 4K in the home except for those doing projectors and the larger 70-80" behemoths. But I am waiting for OLED to come down in price right now, and I wouldn't be surprised that when it enters my price range, they might be 4K as well.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Kolenka said:


> That's a pretty bold statement to make (emphasis mine). Usually tech that far out isn't purchasable yet. Yet I can go buy a 4K TV if I was really wanting one today. Stuff that upscales or passes through 4K over HDMI is on the market already. What is missing is the content, which is not terribly far behind, maybe a couple years before we start seeing mainstream access to movies. They've already got a mechanism for simulcasting 1080p and 4K that can be used for OTA and Terrestrial broadcast fleshed out.
> 
> Now, will it be a TV seller? Ha, no. But over the next 5 years or so, the tech will get cheap enough that you'll probably see 1080p/4K sets for cheap/midrange models like we've seen 720p/1080p for the last few years as 1080p displays have pushed out the older tech from the cheap models.
> 
> Personally, I'm not expecting much benefit from 4K in the home except for those doing projectors and the larger 70-80" behemoths. But I am waiting for OLED to come down in price right now, and I wouldn't be surprised that when it enters my price range, they might be 4K as well.


Will 4K be available, yes, will some people get 4K in the next 5 years, yes, but will it become main stream, IMHO no, just as DVD audio is available, but I don't know anybody that is using it, but everybody I know has a DVR, Cable co or TiVo, everybody I know has a HDTV, and has a DVD player, 50% have a BD player. Will there be a big market for a 4K DVR in the next 10 years, again I don't think so. I have a 80" HDTV and a normal DVD looks very good, yes BD is better but not enough better that I will order BDs from Netflix, just DVDs (much easier to copy if I need to). I have a surround sound digital THX preamp from Meridian that I got in 1997, still does a great job, Tower PC are dropping as the computer of choice by most people, but my tower PC with the I7 extreme that is now almost 4 years old still has a rank in the top 5% as tested by *PC PitStop *, the only upgrade I have done is a SSD drive, I think I will be able to keep using this computer for at least the next 5 years or more, in the past I could never say that about a PC. Most technology reaches a top when improvements become less and less needed for most people or get replaced by something better, like the VCR to the DVR, as vinyl records to CD and now for some people back to vinyl records, that why I think the Roamio will be the last DVR for most people, as I can't see any improvements TiVo could make to the DVR function that would cause me to upgrade again (yes they could make one that could hold say 1000 hours of HD but 300 hours of HD is all I need now and Roamio could go to 450 hours if needed). The first TV standard lasted 60 years, this one should last at least 30 more years.


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> No argument about the HTPC. It's definitely not for everyone and not something you'd necessarily want to give to your in-laws. Tivos are ideal for the non-technically inclined, but then so is the cableco's DVR. Tivo owners tend to fall somewhere in between. They like the convenience and features and don't mind paying a bit extra for them.
> 
> My wife is about as inept as they come when dealing with technology. If the TV's on the wrong input she goes ballistic because she can't figure out how to get it working. When I gave up using a Tivo in my home theater I put it in the family room for her to use. When I finally pulled the plug and cancelled the Tivo service I replaced the Tivo with a small form factor HTPC. So far she's been using it with no problems going on almost two years now. Believe me when I tell you, if my wife can use a WMC PC, then anyone can.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. Looks interesting. I'd like to upgrade my basic HTPC with different (better) software.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Worf said:


> But effectively, the cable companies killed 3rd party DVRs - see what happened to the ReplayTV - it didn't keep up with CableCARD and rapidly got out of date.


That's revisionist history.

ReplayTV was committing(/accomodating) blatant copyright infringement -- allowing people to send recordings to each other -- and being sued to death. They were also being sued for the automatic commercial skipping, which they removed in a later version.

I too wish there were other viable competitors to Tivo, and I say that as a huge Tivo fan. (Viable == as reliable as -- and I've had Tivos die.)


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

mattack said:


> ReplayTV was committing(/accomodating) blatant copyright infringement -- allowing people to send recordings to each other -- and being sued to death.


I can easily set my computer to pull a copy of a show to stream to others. But you are right, I recall the feature was built into the Replay.

While lower prices would always be nice, I'm curious what OP thinks the fair price is for a lifetime service machine.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Unfortunately, neither of the above has driven Tivo's costs down for the consumer. If anything, the lifetime fee is 4 or 5 times what it was originally and the monthly fees have gone up considerably. The hardware may be subsidized, but you're just paying for it in longer installments.


That's a pretty substantial exaggeration. Lifetime cost me $199 in June of 2000 and it's $499 now so that would be 2.5 times what it was originally. I paid $249 for lifetime on my second in May 2002 which would only be 2 times.

Scott


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.


I agree with atsmuscarella. You don't have enough information to back this up as a fact. My 2 Series 3 OLEDs are now 6 years and 9 months old so lifetime was well worth it to me as I still have no incentive to upgrade to newer hardware (and certainly worth even more to me since both were $199 lifetime transfers from my 2 Series 1's of which the oldest was 6 years and 6 months old before we retired it for the S3's).

Scott


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Tivo has lots of competitors.


Tivo has no retail competitors, and that's the root of all the half-assedness we've seen ever since the Premiere came out. Hopefully the Roamios will change that.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> We've had this conversation in about a million threads, but it just isn't. You have to keep the same box with no desire to upgrade for almost 3 years to make your money back and after that your profit is tiny, because it's a discounted 12.99 a month (how much is a payment of 12.99 worth 3 years from now?). No one in finance would advise you to take that bet. Which is why TiVo sets the price where they do.


If you totally ignore the resale value of a lifetime Tivo, sure. But smart people don't.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Tivo has no retail competitors, and that's the root of all the half-assedness we've seen ever since the Premiere came out. Hopefully the Roamios will change that.


Retail or not, the competition exists. It's just a matter of recognizing this to be true. Tivo pretty much has a solid grip on the retail market since all other competitors have fallen by the wayside, leaving Tivo pretty much all by themselves. You could make a point for HTPCs being part of the retail market, but most HTPCs are more likely to by DIY configurations rather than turnkey devices.

However, retail sales is not the No. 1 source for DVRs. Most people that sign up for cable or satellite will likely go with what the cableco offers unless they have prior knowledge of DVRs and Tivos. I don't know the numbers, but I'd hazard a guess that there are more Motorola and various other boxes from providers being used than Tivos.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

HerronScott said:


> That's a pretty substantial exaggeration. Lifetime cost me $199 in June of 2000 and it's $499 now so that would be 2.5 times what it was originally. I paid $249 for lifetime on my second in May 2002 which would only be 2 times.
> 
> Scott


I paid $99 for lifetime on my first Tivo. It is now $499, which is actually slighly more than five times as much than I originally paid.



mattack said:


> That's revisionist history.
> 
> ReplayTV was committing(/accomodating) blatant copyright infringement -- allowing people to send recordings to each other -- and being sued to death. They were also being sued for the automatic commercial skipping, which they removed in a later version.
> 
> I too wish there were other viable competitors to Tivo, and I say that as a huge Tivo fan. (Viable == as reliable as -- and I've had Tivos die.)


I added automatic commercial skipping to my HTPC and nobody's getting sued over it. 

I won't rekindle the debate about HTPC reliability except to say that mine's been rock solid and every bit as reliable as any Tivo I've owned over the past 14 years. Obviously, YMMV.


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

Grakthis said:


> jrtroo said:
> 
> 
> > Lifetime is worth it. Just do it.
> ...


It's a subjective matter just as worth is on any topic. If it was universally worth it then everyone would have a Tivo and none of the alternatives. If it was universally not worth it then no one would own a Tivo. Reality indicates that it's somewhere in between the two extremes.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

What I wish is that there was a "rent to own" option for lifetime where after enough time paying by the month it converted over to PLS.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

unitron said:


> What I wish is that there was a "rent to own" option for lifetime where after enough time paying by the month it converted over to PLS.


Why not just put the lifetime fee on your credit card and pay a little off each month? Aside from the interest rates it pretty much amounts to the same thing. It sounds like you simply want to buy lifetime on an installment plan.

FYI - if you've ever done business with one of the rent-to-own companies you'd know that they end up charging you way more than the retail cost of the unit.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> I paid $99 for lifetime on my first Tivo.


Was that the original price or not? Now I don't remember for sure.. I do remember that the warning about lifetime price *going up* is what pushed me to start seriously looking into getting a Tivo.. and I ended up missing the deadline (I also was looking for hardware deals at the time), and IIRC paid $199 for lifetime.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Why not just put the lifetime fee on your credit card and pay a little off each month? Aside from the interest rates it pretty much amounts to the same thing. It sounds like you simply want to buy lifetime on an installment plan.
> 
> FYI - if you've ever done business with one of the rent-to-own companies you'd know that they end up charging you way more than the retail cost of the unit.


I should have said a retroactive rent to own PLS option.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I paid $99 for lifetime on my first Tivo. It is now $499, which is actually slighly more than five times as much than I originally paid.


So was lifetime this low when TiVo was first released in 1999 (or early 2000 before I bought mine)??

Scott


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

HerronScott said:


> So was lifetime this low when TiVo was first released in 1999 (or early 2000 before I bought mine)??
> 
> Scott


I think it may have been $199 originally, but they offered it for $99 on numerous occasions as a special deal.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Lifetime fees have been all over the place, I have paid the following:

$299 on a Series 2 - 9/2005
$299 (MSD) on a TiVo HD - 5/2008
$199 (special promotion) on a Premiere - 11/2010
$99 (retention offer) on a Series 3 - 10/2011
$399 (MSD) on a Roamio - as soon as the unit shows up


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I always preferred ReplayTV DVRs because the lifetime service was factored into the cost of the DVR. I think they changed to a subscription-based service with the later models, which may have been part of the reason for their demise along with their legal issues.


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## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

Grakthis said:


> In that case, give me 10G right now and I'll give it back to you in 3 years. Since TVM doesn't matter, right?
> 
> 31 months is over 2.5 years and I said "almost 3 years." Don't be a pedant. No one likes a pedant.
> 
> edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.


You can't say this is factual, as it depends on the individual owner as to whether PLS will be cheaper. For me, the best example I can give goes back to Series 2. I purchased my Series 2 in 2004, and deactivated it in 2009, paying $10 per month for it. At the time, PLS was $299, and I ended up paying over $600 for service on this box (my last NON-Lifetime box). I purchased the Tivo HD in May of 2009, and will retire it when my Roamio arrives next month, for a total of 54 months of service. Current service for ONE box is $15 per month, so assuming I never plug in the Tivo again, service would have cost me $810, but instead I got PLS for $299. This also assumes that I don't sell it, and I have two people interested in buying it for $250.

If you upgrade your Tivo every time there is a new model, each Tivo would be in service for 2 years, but most people aren't going to do that, especially if they purchase Product Lifetime. But, even considering people will do that, you can still sell your Tivo (depending on model and other upgrades) for usually somewhere in the ballpark of between $200 and $500. So, assuming the lowest price after two years of service, and also assuming you are NOT getting an MSD, you would have paid $300 for PLS if you sold it for the absolute least you could, or $360 if you paid monthly.

I fail to see how this is "fact" as you state, especially today. I cannot see Tivo releasing a major upgrade before at least 36 months has passed (seeing has how the Series 4 was released 3/2010) and I really can't see a personal need for more than 6 tuners or 3TB of space, so any upgrade will have to be processor/performance based, or a major UI enhancement. But, I guess I'm "Old School" because even then the Tivo will still do what it does today, which is more than enough to keep me happy.

The only reason I upgraded from the HD to the S5 is because I wanted to get in early on this release cycle, and to finally be able to take advantage of the features introduced with the S4 line, like Xfinity on demand and mostly HD menus.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mntvjunkie said:


> ... I really can't see a personal need for more than 6 tuners ...


That need varies from person to person. It all depends on how you record your programs. I pad every recording and sometimes have six or more shows being recorded simultaneously due to overlap. I also record about 40-50% of my programs via OTA antenna and the rest from FIOS, requiring a mix of tuners. The number of tuners I have would be overkill for most people, but I have them for very specific reasons. Here's what I have and how they're used:

Two Ceton InfiniTV4 cablecard tuners located in my primary HTPC. These are dedicated to a single PC for recording FIOS programming and not shared. Four tuners was not enough and the 6-tuner InfiniTV6 was not available when I bought the 2nd InfiniTV4. Six cablecard tuners would be adequate for my needs. I hought about getting a 2nd HDHomeRun Prime, but I figured if I was going to pay for another cablecard I might as well get the max number of tuners for my money. I may eventually swap both InfiniTV4's for a single InfiniTV6.

Two Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 dual ATSC/QAM tuners. Also dedicated to my primary HTPC for OTA recording.

One 3-tuner SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime cablecard tuner. These are shared between three HTPCs, including the primary HTPC. They aren't really used by the main HTPC, but they get configured automatically during Media Center setup.

One SiliconDust HDHomeRun Dual ATSC tuner. Available to the three HTPCs, but also not used by the primary HTPC unless there's a rare occurrence that I need an extra OTA tuner. This tuner rarely gets used by any PC and could be eliminated from the mix with no impact. I have it so I figure, why not use it? It's more of a backup in case my FIOS ever goes out (which it hasn't in the 5 or 6 years I've had it except during a power outage, in which case I won't be watching TV anyway).

All in all, the main HTPC has access to 17 tuners, even though only a handful of them are in use at any given time. The other PCs share a mix of 5 tuners, mainly for live TV viewing, but there are enough tuners available for recording on any of the remote HTPCs if someone wishes to do so.

Six Tivo tuners simply would not work for me. Judging by some of the signatures I see containing long lists of Tivos I'd say six tuners wouldn't work for a lot of others as well.

As for storage, my primary HTPC has a single 1.5TB WD AV drive for recording as well as storage for miscellaneous files. I probably record an average of 50 hours of programs per week during the main TV seasons and the drive rarely ever gets more than half full, and that's with 20 minutes of additional padding for every show recorded (10 minutes before and after).

Using your DVR for long term storage isn't a smart thing to do as evidenced by the number of sob stories you hear about people losing hundreds of hours of recordings due to a drive failure. I have a server with parity protection for storing things I want to keep. Anything on my server can be accessed from any PC as well.


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

HerronScott said:


> So was lifetime this low when TiVo was first released in 1999 (or early 2000 before I bought mine)??
> 
> Scott





mr.unnatural said:


> I think it may have been $199 originally, but they offered it for $99 on numerous occasions as a special deal.





atmuscarella said:


> Lifetime fees have been all over the place, I have paid the following:
> 
> $299 on a Series 2 - 9/2005
> $299 (MSD) on a TiVo HD - 5/2008
> ...


I bought my first Tivo in Nov 2000 and they had a promotion for $99 lifetime, regular price $199. I liked it so much I bought a second Tivo a week or 2 later and also got the $99 lifetime. One of those is still in active service at my son's house, so I think I've gotten my moneys worth on lifetime.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> That need varies from person to person. It all depends on how you record your programs. I pad every recording and sometimes have six or more shows being recorded simultaneously due to overlap. I also record about 40-50% of my programs via OTA antenna and the rest from FIOS, requiring a mix of tuners. The number of tuners I have would be overkill for most people, but I have them for very specific reasons. Here's what I have and how they're used:


Yep, that's way overkill. Given that cable reruns almost every new show, all most people really need is enough to record new network shows (i.e. ABC, CBS etc.) with padding and 6 tuners is plenty for that. Everything else on cable can be picked up by one of the many reruns later that evening or next day. That's also why you order SPs with network shows at top, cable afterwards.


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## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

I guess I was using the number of tuners more as an argument towards lifetime. The argument could be made that while the S4 came out in 2010, there was an upgrade to 4 tuners in 2012 which would cause one to need to upgrade BEFORE they were fully vested in the current lifetime box they owned. As far as "mid life" upgrades, I just don't see anything that Tivo could do that would make me want to get another box in less than three years. 6 tuners is enough for me, so adding two more tuners wouldn't be anything that would interest me. And 3TB is actually more than enough, I doubt I'll ever exceed 2TB, and if I do, I should be pulling the shows off and archiving them somewhere else.

They could add a new processor, but DVR processors are not improving THAT fast, so in order to notice a difference, I'd think 3 years is the "sweet spot". Plus, if this box runs speedy like people are saying it does, I very much doubt it will slow down over the years, as that hasn't been my previous experience with Tivo hardware.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

While I believe buying lifetime service will end up costing less than paying monthly for most people, there certainly are situations where monthly makes more sense, especially when you factor in a persons individual situation. I have paid monthly and because I was locked in at $6.95 it was about the same as having bought lifetime, but for all the units I have purchased lifetime on I am way ahead of having paid monthly. 

That is why each person needs to evaluate it for themselves and not blindly go one way or the other. But for someone buying any of the new Roamio DVRs now I have a hard time believing they will not benefit from lifetime service.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, that's way overkill. Given that cable reruns almost every new show, all most people really need is enough to record new network shows (i.e. ABC, CBS etc.) with padding and 6 tuners is plenty for that. Everything else on cable can be picked up by one of the many reruns later that evening or next day. That's also why you order SPs with network shows at top, cable afterwards.


The only problem with that philosophy is that anything aired after the initial air date is technically a rerun and may not be picked up if you have the series recordings set to New only. I prefer to record shows the first time they air as I try to watch them within 48 hours after being recorded. Otherwise I get backlogged and it throws my whole schedule off.

Network shows are recorded via ATSC tuners whereas cable shows are recorded via the cablecard tuners so conflicts aren't an issue with my setup. I can record as many shows as I want from either source with no worries. Your Tivo is limited to whatever tuners you have and may not even be able to record OTA channels. That's one area where Tivo really screwed the pooch, IMHO.

While it is an extremely rare occurrence, sometimes there may be a glitch that prevents a show from recording properly. Missed recordings are usually the result of a signal glitch or loss at the source, which I have absolutely no control over. If I set it up to record a later showing and it glitches, I may not get another chance at it. Many cable shows only air a show on the initial date with a repeat scheduled just prior to the new episode the following week. They don't air them a dozen times a week like they used to.

Truth is, I rarely, if ever, miss a recording and I never have to worry about a recording conflict. That's more than ample justification enough in my book. Overkill or not, many people can't make the same claim with just a dual or quad tuner Tivo. I just set up a season pass and forget about it. I never have to worry about the networks rescheduling shows without my knowledge, resulting in a potential conflict with other shows. They just get recorded.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> The only problem with that philosophy is that anything aired after the initial air date is technically a rerun and may not be picked up if you have the series recordings set to New only. I prefer to record shows the first time they air as I try to watch them within 48 hours after being recorded. Otherwise I get backlogged and it throws my whole schedule off.


TiVo doesn't pay any antention to the 'new' flag; so assuming the guide data is good it'll happly grab a later airing up through 28 days after the original air date. (But not if it's already recorded or you manually canceled the scheduled recording)

Back when I only had 2 tuners I'd see that happen a few times a week. The only problem I had with it was for shows on SciFi, their guide data didn't correctly indicate that the late night airing was always 5 minutes later than listed. So I had to add padding to all SciFi season passes were potentially bumpable.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Grakthis said:


> In that case, give me 10G right now and I'll give it back to you in 3 years. Since TVM doesn't matter, right?


It matters, but it is not the only important aspect of the issue. No one said paying up front does not have any potential drawbacks.



Grakthis said:


> 31 months is over 2.5 years and I said "almost 3 years."


Depending on the situation, it may be closer to 18 months.



Grakthis said:


> Don't be a pedant. No one likes a pedant.


I do.



Grakthis said:


> edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box.


Exactly where do you obtain this so-called "fact"? In order to calculate the advantage, one must factor in the amount paid for PLS (which has been quite variable), the average length of time the average user keeps the TiVo under service, and the average amount a user gets for selling a lifetimed TiVo versus selling a TiVo without PLS. Unless you can provide some hard statistics on all three variables, your "fact" is nothing but a WAG.



Grakthis said:


> Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.


Here is one absolute fact for you: With two qualifying MSDs, my three active Tivos would have cost much, much more had I not gotten PLS since 09/2006, 06/2007, and 12/2007, and my now dead S1 TiVo from 12/2000 to 09/2007. This is especially true since I could still sell the three S3 class TiVos for between $200 and $300 on ebay. As always, the user's mileage will no doubt vary, and I have no real data on how my track record compares to the average, but as long as the TiVo does not turn belly up in 18 months, it is not at all difficult to windup in the black by purchasing PLS.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Grakthis said:


> edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.


That's simply not true. The resale value alone benefits users. At $15/mo it takes ~34 months to break even on full price lifetime. ($500) If at the end of 34 months you were to sell both TiVos the one with lifetime would typically be worth $300 more then the one without. Which means you're essentially saving $9/mo off the monthly fee. If you think you can put $500 in an account and earn $9/mo in interest then I'd love to know where you bank.


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## consumedsoul (Jan 13, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> That's simply not true. The resale value alone benefits users. At $15/mo it takes ~34 months to break even on full price lifetime. ($500) If at the end of 34 months you were to sell both TiVos the one with lifetime would typically be worth $300 more then the one without. Which means you're essentially saving $9/mo off the monthly fee. If you think you can put $500 in an account and earn $9/mo in interest then I'd love to know where you bank.


Out of curiosity, how frequently do new TiVo lines come out? Every year? Every couple years?

I'd upgrade every time a new line came out (yeah I'm a gadget junkie) so wondering if paying lifetime would be worth it for me (so I'd pay $200 for TiVo and $399 for lifetime for this unit?)...


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

consumedsoul said:


> Out of curiosity, how frequently do new TiVo lines come out? Every year? Every couple years?
> 
> I'd upgrade every time a new line came out (yeah I'm a gadget junkie) so wondering if paying lifetime would be worth it for me (so I'd pay $200 for TiVo and $399 for lifetime for this unit?)...


No idea when the next update will be but my guess is several years (3-4 maybe more). There really isn't much to upgrade especially with the 6 tuner units.

The reality is there is no way to know for sure which way will be better until time passes. The one thing many of us around here can tell you is that lifetime service has consistently ended up being much cheaper for us and I expect that to be true with the new Roamio DVRs. But again only after time passes will you know for sure.


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## consumedsoul (Jan 13, 2013)

atmuscarella said:


> No idea when the next update will be but my guess is several years (3-4 maybe more). There really isn't much to upgrade especially with the 6 tuner units.
> 
> The reality is there is no way to know for sure which way will be better until time passes. The one thing many of us around here can tell you is that lifetime service has consistently ended up being much cheaper for us and that I expect that to be true with the new Roamio DVRs. But again only after time passes will you know for sure.


Good to know - thanks. Knowing that about 2 yrs is about when I'd break even, I think I'll do the lifetime for my Roamio basic.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

consumedsoul said:


> Out of curiosity, how frequently do new TiVo lines come out? Every year? Every couple years?
> 
> I'd upgrade every time a new line came out (yeah I'm a gadget junkie) so wondering if paying lifetime would be worth it for me (so I'd pay $200 for TiVo and $399 for lifetime for this unit?)...


Historically about every 3-4 years. Although they sometimes do a small refresh in the middle. (S3 -> TiVo HD or Premiere -> Elite/XL4)


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## consumedsoul (Jan 13, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> Historically about every 3-4 years. Although they sometimes do a small refresh in the middle. (S3 -> TiVo HD or Premiere -> Elite/XL4)


Got it - thanks for the info, sounds like it's worth the investment if I'm planning on keeping it for at least a couple years minimum.


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## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

consumedsoul said:


> Got it - thanks for the info, sounds like it's worth the investment if I'm planning on keeping it for at least a couple years minimum.


Well, and even if you do plan to upgrade in 2 years, your Roamio Basic with Lifetime service would probably get you AT LEAST $200. Service over two years would cost $360, and as others stated, would break even at 31 months, assuming no resale.

I can't see, other than a minor refresh, a new box coming out in less than 3 years. And the past refreshes have been to add bigger drives, more tuners, etc. which doesn't seem like a good reason to upgrade (especially since you are going with a Basic).

But yes, each person has to make that evaluation for themselves to determine if it is worth it or not. My issue is when someone comes on here saying that it's never worth it for anyone, because that's not true. The fact is, I DID pay more, almost twice as much, paying monthly on my Series 1 and Series 2, than I would have paid for lifetime service. And on my Tivo HD, had I been paying monthly I would have paid $810 JUST for the service, whereas I paid $500 for the Box AND service, saving nearly $300. Granted, I skipped the S4, and I will probably skip the S6 when it comes out in 3 years.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

mntvjunkie said:


> And the past refreshes have been to add bigger drives, more tuners, etc. which doesn't seem like a good reason to upgrade (especially since you are going with a Basic)


I think the days of larger drives as an upgrade incentive are over. 3TB is more then enough space for usage by the general population... Add to that the eventual move to Mpeg4 by the cable companies - and the file size gets even smaller.

It has always been easy to see where TiVo needed to go with their next units - but I am not sure what the S6 units would look like.

I suppose the only thing that comes to mind is the move from cable cards to some future state authentication method.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Grakthis said:


> edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.


Roughly 40% of all currently active lifetime subs are more than 5 years old. That's a whole lot of people getting many more years than break-even requires. Granted, the 40% doesn't count all those folks who throw a $300 unit in the trash rather than make productive use out of it, but it also doesn't count all those new lifetime users who haven't had a chance to reach break-even yet. I would have to believe that well over half of all lifetime subs are still active at a 3 year break-even point.

Here's the data from the 2013 annual report for the 40% figure:
1,029,000 total tivo subscriptions
53% of tivo subs pay monthly (rest lifetime presumably)
194,000 lifetime subscriptions are currently active (called in within past 6 months), and have exceeded the amortization period of 5 years. (TiVo changed their amortization period recently, I remember figures of 174,000 active subs have exceeded 5 1/2 years)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> I think the days of larger drives as an upgrade incentive are over. 3TB is more then enough space for usage by the general population... Add to that the eventual move to Mpeg4 by the cable companies - and the file size gets even smaller.
> 
> It has always been easy to see where TiVo needed to go with their next units - but I am not sure what the S6 units would look like.
> 
> I suppose the only thing that comes to mind is the move from cable cards to some future state authentication method.


I agree.

6 tuners is the max for CableCARDs unless the FCC steps in and changes the rules again, so there is no where to go with tuners. And 3TB is plenty of storage for most people. And if it's not there is always the eSATA port. Add in the built in transcoding of the Stream and I can't see what hardware improvements they could make. The only improvements I can see are all software. (user profiles being at the top of my list)

Although I wouldn't mind seeing a TiVo with a built in BD drive. I always loved our Pioneer S2 and it's ability to play DVDs using the TiVo remote. If they made one with a BD drive built in that would be awesome, and would truly make it the "one box" for me.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

consumedsoul said:


> Got it - thanks for the info, sounds like it's worth the investment if I'm planning on keeping it for at least a couple years minimum.


And just because you decide to upgrade, keeping the older model on 2nd and 3rd TV's can extend their lives significantly. I purchase the S3 in late 2004, the HD in 2008, and the Premiere in 2010 all active and all heavily used by my family. I also had a S2 in service for years before that.

So, what have I saved with lifetime vs. monthly fees in all those years? A lot!

And I can still get up to $900 resale on these units. If they didn't have lifetime service - maybe $60 for the three of them.

Is it a fact that the average user doesn't benefit from lifetime? Far, far from it. I think the average user is likely to hold on to their TiVo rather then to upgrade as soon as a new model hits the market - (like the members on this forum)


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> I always preferred ReplayTV DVRs because the lifetime service was factored into the cost of the DVR. I think they changed to a subscription-based service with the later models, which may have been part of the reason for their demise along with their legal issues.


Seems similar to the 2005 TiVo pricing model - even a little higher:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReplayTV



> 2005 products with list prices (no longer available):
> ReplayTV RTV5504 40-Hour Digital Video Recorder ($149.99)
> ReplayTV RTV5508 80-Hour Digital Video Recorder ($299.99)
> ReplayTV RTV5516 160-Hour Digital Video Recorder ($449.99)
> ...


I know they started shipping in late '99, so maybe the early model was different - but not apparently successful.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

In the beginning ReplayTV only had one price with lifetime service included. A similar TiVo was cheaper up front, but slightly more expensive once you added lifetime service. I don't think ReplayTV added the monthly option until after they were sold the first time.

The reason for their demise was litigation. They were sued over two key features. One allowed the box to automatically skip commercials. Not 30 second skip, but some sort of commercial detection that just skipped the entire commercial block in one press of the button. The other was a sharing feature that allowed boxes to share shows via the internet. It was suppose to be limited to friends & family, but an aggregation service quickly popped up where you could find another ReplayTV that had the show you wanted and quickly link to it and grab the show. And this was before any DRM existed so people were using it to watch shows on premium channels that they themselves did not subscribe to.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I don't think ReplayTV added the monthly option until after they were sold the first time.


This is correct. ReplayTV went through several different models before going with a subscriber-based setup. I owned both the 3000 series ReplayTV and Panasonic Showstopper models, neither of which had any of the features that eventually resulted in litigation against the company. The network sharing and commercial skipping functions didn't appear until later models. The link previously posted to wikipedia can provide more detail than I can offer if anyone's interested in the history so I won't elaborate further.


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## StevesWeb (Dec 26, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> ReplayTV went through several different models before going with a subscriber-based setup.


We had one of the newer models that did skip commercials, it worked very well.

When we switched to a TiVo I thought it would be a downgrade but quickly realized the TiVo is far better as a DVR.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bradleys said:


> I think the days of larger drives as an upgrade incentive are over. 3TB is more then enough space for usage by the general population... Add to that the eventual move to Mpeg4 by the cable companies - and the file size gets even smaller.
> 
> It has always been easy to see where TiVo needed to go with their next units - but I am not sure what the S6 units would look like.
> 
> I suppose the only thing that comes to mind is the move from cable cards to some future state authentication method.


I don't think TiVo can come up with anything that would be a must have in any Series 6 unless cable cards went out as an option, then your old TiVos would have no value and lifetime would not be the correct option, I don't think that the FCC would let Cable Cards go away, not within the next 10 years or more, my guess is that a Series 6 may be less expensive to purchase, smaller, or other cosmetic changes that a new customer would like but people who already own a Series 4 or especially a Series 5 would be less likely to upgrade.
Someone should take a poll about their TiVo use, for me and my family we only record & watch TV shows, the only other option we ever use on the TiVo is OD that we are lucky to have. I would not upgrade for a built in BD player or coffee maker for that matter.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

How does power consumption fit in with an HTPC? A Premier pulls about 25W. No sarcasm intended, just wondering.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

CharlesH said:


> How does power consumption fit in with an HTPC? A Premier pulls about 25W. No sarcasm intended, just wondering.


That depends entirely on the architecture of the PC itself. You could use something like an Intel NUC with a HDHomeRun (Dual or Prime) and an external drive for storage, or you could go with a full desktop setup. Compared to a similarly outfitted Tivo, the Tivo would probably use less power.

Power consumption isn't really something that most people consider when going with a HTPC. It's more about what features you can incorporate into it. PC hardware manufacturers are always looking for new ways to get top performance while using less power so chances are pretty good you can build a HTPC that's also an energy saver.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

My Intel i5-3570K HTPC with an Asrock Z77Pro mobo, Antec Earthwatts 430 PS, 8GB RAM, 128GB SSD + 1TB HD, and nVidia GTX650 video card idles around 40 watts. I also use it for gaming and it's great for either task, maxes out at less than 70 watts I think.

Power consumption for a dedicated HTPC on a NUC or Shuttle would be way less, like 20 watts or so (Anandtech says the NUC is between 10-20 with last year's i3). It's not an issue on modern PCs anymore, and quite comparable to a Roamio even with 6 tuners especially when you factor in that a PC can sleep for much of the time.


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