# An alternative idea to a TiVO mini



## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

OK, I was waiting for this TiVO Mini to come to the market before I moved on some other possible choices for having multiple live TVs in my home. Now that it has arrived, I might go another route. 

Instead of getting a mini; $99 lifetime a Series 3 TiVo (since I have a Premiere 2-tuner) that I recently obtained from Craigslist for $40. Then simply throw a cable card in it for $1.50/month. Will not only essentially have a live cable box (with its own dedicated tuner), but also additional storage for recording programs (that can be transferred as needed), Netflix access and ability to have pyTivo. 

I'm sure everybody's needs are different and you would probably go with a mini if you don't have a cable outlet nearby the needed TV. I personally am gonna try the above method for a guest bedroom that isn't used frequently, but what true benefit would a tivo mini have over just getting a cheap series 3 TiVo instead? Is it really just the fact that you would have a central access point (4-tuner Premier) to control all network activity? I also realize you can watch premium channels on a TiVo mini as opposed to them being blocked with my Comcast system. 

Maybe there are some other factors? Just curious.


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

buscuitboy said:


> OK, I was waiting for this TiVO Mini to come to the market before I moved on some other possible choices for having multiple live TVs in my home. Now that it has arrived, I might go another route.
> 
> Instead of getting a mini; $99 lifetime a Series 3 TiVo (since I have a Premiere 2-tuner) that I recently obtained from Craigslist for $40. Then simply throw a cable card in it for $1.50/month. Will not only essentially have a live cable box (with its own dedicated tuner), but also additional storage for recording programs (that can be transferred as needed), Netflix access and ability to have pyTivo.
> 
> ...


As I understand it, you have to have a cable outlet (or Ethernet) for a mini to work.

The premiere you have is capable of outputting on HDMI and component at the same time. I bought a 50ft component cable and routed to a 2nd TV, and use the iphone remote to control the TiVo.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Well multiple DVRs has always been a solution. My thoughts are:

With multiple DVRs you have to manage 2 too do lists and deal with conflicts yourself
If any of the DVRs are Series 3 then you can not stream between DVRs and some transfers (MRV) maybe restricted by your cable company
With multiple DVRs you will have to pay for additional cable cards and perhaps other fees like an outlet fee
On the plus side with multiple DVRs if one breaks you still have assess to cable via the other one.
Also dual tuner Series 3 & Premiere DVRs will also do OTA which maybe import to some people. 
In the end what is the better solution is personal so just make the best decision for you.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

buscuitboy said:


> OK, I was waiting for this TiVO Mini to come to the market before I moved on some other possible choices for having multiple live TVs in my home. Now that it has arrived, I might go another route.
> 
> Instead of getting a mini; $99 lifetime a Series 3 TiVo (since I have a Premiere 2-tuner) that I recently obtained from Craigslist for $40. Then simply throw a cable card in it for $1.50/month. Will not only essentially have a live cable box (with its own dedicated tuner), but also additional storage for recording programs (that can be transferred as needed), Netflix access and ability to have pyTivo.
> 
> ...


1) Some people must pay $7 to $9 /month for the Cable card, a Mini does not need one
2) The Mini does need a cable outlet, or a direct connection to your router to work, most people have more cable outlets than RJ45 outlets, you can't use any wireless setup with a Mini
3) Both setups can watch premium channels if you are paying for them.
4) Some cable systems need a tuner adapter, a Mini does not
5) Your Series 3 uses more power, more noise, and because of the hard drive less long term reliability. 
6) Lifetime Series 3 (TiVo-HD) go for about $340 on E-Bay, so you could sell your Series 3 and sell your Series 4 for $540 for a total of about $800, Purchase a TP-4 + Mini for about $870. You would not need any Wireless adapter as both units can use the built in Moca.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Another consideration of picking up the Mini versus a Series 3 box is the inability to use MRS between a Premiere and a Series 3. For anyone on Time Warner and a few other Cable companies, we're crippled by copy protection on all but the local broadcast channels. We'd be fine with another premiere, but even another Lifetimed 2-tuner is going to run you $400 (Tivo had such a deal several months ago on the 75hr Premiere). You'd save $150 with the Mini and still be able to have a multi-room experience not crippled by the copy protection.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Well multiple DVRs has always been a solution. My thoughts are:
> 
> With multiple DVRs you will have to pay for additional cable cards and perhaps other fees like an outlet fee





Yea, I thought about the additional cable card fees, but at only a $1.50/month for mine, it would take a LOT of months to break even versus the cost of a Mini with lifetime ($250). Hell, even if I didn't do lifetime on a mini, its still $6/month Mini vs $1.50/month S3 cable card. Also, about the same outlay for the equipment; $150 for S3 with lifetime (if able) vs $150 for mini.



atmuscarella said:


> Well multiple DVRs has always been a solution. My thoughts are:
> 
> On the plus side with multiple DVRs if one breaks you still have assess to cable via the other one.
> Also dual tuner Series 3 & Premiere DVRs will also do OTA which maybe import to some people.


Yea, these are two additional advantages I didn't think of. Good points. Of course, I guess I would also ultimately lose some storage capacity, but you can't win them all 



lessd said:


> 6) Lifetime Series 3 (TiVo-HD) go for about $340 on E-Bay, so you could sell your Series 3 and sell your Series 4 for $540 for a total of about $800, Purchase a TP-4 + Mini for about $870. You would not need any Wireless adapter as both units can use the built in Moca.


This is another good option to possibly consider as well (since my Premiere is lifetimed).

And I forgot that some sort of connection (coaxial or Ethernet) is still needed with the mini.

As stated, I guess in the end what is the better solution is personal so just make the best decision for you (especially if you have to pay $7-9/month extra for each cable card).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The Mini is designed to be part of a whole home solution where you have one central TiVo that does all the recording and then spread these Mini thin clients around the house everywhere you want to watch that content. It's main advantages are that it's cheaper then buying a second TiVo and that it can borrow a tuner from the host TiVo for live TV so there is no need for an additional CableCARD or outlet fee.

If you don't see any advantage to those features, and can get a second TiVo cheap enough, then that is a viable option. However I would recommend sticking to Premiere units. The ability to stream recordings between TiVos is only supported by Premiere units. And the old MRV method of copying shows between units is slow and crippled by copy protection.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

buscuitboy said:


> Yea, I thought about the additional cable card fees, but at only a $1.50/month for mine, it would take a LOT of months to break even versus the cost of a Mini with lifetime ($250). Hell, even if I didn't do lifetime on a mini, its still $6/month Mini vs $1.50/month S3 cable card. Also, about the same outlay for the equipment; $150 for S3 with lifetime (if able) vs $150 for mini.


Are you sure about that cost of the additional CableCard? We're in the same market, and I was charged $9.95/month two years ago when I had a CableCard for another device. Of course you may not be a Comcast customer, but they have the majority of the market in Atlanta.

The Mini is a great device. Love the ability to pause TV in our living room and then go to the master bedroom and resume TV.

My coax outlet is on the other side of the room. I ran the cable underneath the baseboard so it's unnoticeable. I have a MoCA bridge in my office, but once I have ethernet wired to the living room, I plan to use the XL4 as a MoCA bridge. The MoCA is pretty fast. No lag times whatsoever in streaming live or recorded content to the Mini.

I'm planning on purchasing an additional Mini to go in my office, and if TiVo allows dynamic tuner support, I probably will buy another 4 (one for the home theater room to be built soon and 3 for the guest bedrooms).


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## swerver (May 18, 2012)

Here's my proposed workaround - I know people are doing this already but now that no 2 tuner support in the future is confirmed, and I already own a roku, I'm going to try kmttg auto-transfers using KUID flag. kmttg will copy to server when I flag a show as KUID, then roku can view these recordings via plex channel. This gets me pretty close to what the mini offers, with the exception of live tv, and it's free in my case since I already own roku and server. Any issues with my plan, please advise. 

I like the cheap tivo plan but my goal is to not give comcast any extra money and here they charge a lot for a 2nd cable card so that's out for me.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The biggest issues with your plan...

1) Copyright. Only shows that are not protected can be transferred to a PC. There is no obvious way to tell from the TiVo itself whether a show is protected or not. The Mini, or a second TiVo, can stream and show from another TiVo regardless of it's copyright setting.

2) Convenience. You can't transfer a show to a PC until it has finished recording. Streaming works even with in-process recordings. 

3) Speed. TiVo to PC transfers are slow, then even after it's done you have to wait for kmttg to decrypt the show before you can play via Plex.

With two Premiere units, or a Premiere/Mini combo, you simply pull up the other TiVo's My Shows list, highlight the show you want to watch and press play. It instantly starts playing the show with full FF/RW capabilities. It's virtually identical to the experience of sitting in front of that TiVo and using it directly.


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## swerver (May 18, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> The biggest issues with your plan...


Thanks for the feedback. While I am unlucky enough to have to pay a lot for additional cable cards, I am also lucky enough to have everything except premium channels unprotected. As for 2 and 3, I'd like to have those features but in exchange for no additional money from me to anyone? I can live with it.

Given my setup, (2 tvs, generally only one being used, one tivo) running a 2nd video line from my tivo to my other tv and using wifi remotes sounds pretty appealing. But that's gonna involve some holes in walls so will try the server/roku option first.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Can you always get the $99 Lifetime deal?


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## Finalrinse (Jan 13, 2005)

I ordered a TiVo Mini yesterday for the master bedroom. I currently have a Comcast DVR in there that I'm paying $9.95 per month for, plus I hate the user interface. The Comcast DVR is going back to save the $9.95 towards the Mini. I currently have two TiVo's with cable cards and the cards are free. This will be perfect for me


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I was interested in the mini but after talking to TiVo yesterday, it's a non starter. If you already have multiple tivos in the home, the mini unfortunately can only see content on the one host it is using for the tuner. If it weren't for that I'd be interested. However based on that, it's a non starter and i would never consider it. I'm not sure why TiVo chose to implement it that way but I can't imagine somebody with multiple tivos really being interested for any reason than just to jump on the bandwagon. I don't know why TiVo could not at least match the capabilities of the cable companies in this case.


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## jjd_87 (Jan 31, 2011)

wmhjr said:


> I was interested in the mini but after talking to TiVo yesterday, it's a non starter. If you already have multiple tivos in the home, the mini unfortunately can only see content on the one host it is using for the tuner. If it weren't for that I'd be interested. However based on that, it's a non starter and i would never consider it. I'm not sure why TiVo chose to implement it that way but I can't imagine somebody with multiple tivos really being interested for any reason than just to jump on the bandwagon. I don't know why TiVo could not at least match the capabilities of the cable companies in this case.


Not true. You can stream content from any Premier/S4 box on your network. You just need a P4/4XL to set up the Mini


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## news4me2 (Jul 10, 2010)

swerver said:


> Here's my proposed workaround - I know people are doing this already but now that no 2 tuner support in the future is confirmed, and I already own a roku, I'm going to try kmttg auto-transfers using KUID flag. kmttg will copy to server when I flag a show as KUID, then roku can view these recordings via plex channel. This gets me pretty close to what the mini offers, with the exception of live tv, and it's free in my case since I already own roku and server. Any issues with my plan, please advise.
> 
> I like the cheap tivo plan but my goal is to not give comcast any extra money and here they charge a lot for a 2nd cable card so that's out for me.


I think it would be great if TiVo sold subscriptions for the Mini software so it could just be run from the Roku box...


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

buscuitboy said:


> Instead of getting a mini; $99 lifetime a Series 3 TiVo (since I have a Premiere 2-tuner) that I recently obtained from Craigslist for $40. Then simply throw a cable card in it for $1.50/month.


$99? Congrats. Comcast charges me $7.45 for the 'outlet fee' and the card is free (wahoo). The $1.50 only applies if one appliance needs two cards. So for me, the first TiVo is part of the cable package, but each additional one is $7.45 (except for a series 2 that runs off a DTA, that's $1.99)

An uncarded 3 would let me move shows, but nothing 'live.' I'm considering this option for the basement, where I have a treadmill, and never channel surf. But, I digress.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

jjd_87 said:


> Not true. You can stream content from any Premier/S4 box on your network. You just need a P4/4XL to set up the Mini


I was very very explicit in my discussions with TiVo. They insisted, two days ago, with two different reps on two different calls, that your statement is incorrect. Specifically, they insisted that the mini could only see content on the xl4 that it was using as the tuner host. When asked independently, they said that if you had another premier on your network, you would need to stream from that premier to the host xl4 for you to view it through the mini.

I can provide date/time of each call. So, either TiVo sales is broken or their product is subject to this disadvantage. I'd like to know which. Obviously neither is good. Frankly, both reps said that they had worked with the technology in their demo lab but both seemed to have a flawed description of streaming to begin with.


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## jjd_87 (Jan 31, 2011)

wmhjr said:


> I was very very explicit in my discussions with TiVo. They insisted, two days ago, with two different reps on two different calls, that your statement is incorrect. Specifically, they insisted that the mini could only see content on the xl4 that it was using as the tuner host. When asked independently, they said that if you had another premier on your network, you would need to stream from that premier to the host xl4 for you to view it through the mini.
> 
> I can provide date/time of each call. So, either TiVo sales is broken or their product is subject to this disadvantage. I'd like to know which. Obviously neither is good. Frankly, both reps said that they had worked with the technology in their demo lab but both seemed to have a flawed description of streaming to begin with.


Read the boards. Its here, you can stream from any Premiere on your network. If it streams from Premiere to XL4/4 to Mini or Premiere directly to Mini, I dunno. But it works. There is so much false info about this product and so many pissy people about the price and what it does/doesn't do.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

jjd_87 said:


> Read the boards. Its here, you can stream from any Premiere on your network. If it streams from Premiere to XL4/4 to Mini or Premiere directly to Mini, I dunno. But it works. There is so much false info about this product and so many pissy people about the price and what it does/doesn't do.


I would prefer to get confirmation from TiVo rather than an unofficial board. Where is the clear TiVo documentation that shows this.

Let me be clear.

If you have an xl4 and 2 premiers, and then you add a mini, I assume the mini will consume one of 4 tuners on the xl4. Will the mini be able to natively see and play all recorded content on ALL of the tivos?

2 different TiVo sales people at TiVo said explicitly NO. They said that the TiVo mini will only see content that is on the "host" xl4.

This is not being pissy. It is called being thorough and pragmatic. I think asking a basic question like this of the people who design and sell the device is quite reasonable.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

And actually another question. Assuming the highly theoretical idea of one host xl4 and a bunch of minis, how do multiple minis consume the xl4 tuner? Can 5 minis use a single xl4 tuner -all on different channels at the same time, and still allow th other 3 tuners on the xl4 to operate independently?


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

wmhjr said:


> And actually another question. Assuming the highly theoretical idea of one host xl4 and a bunch of minis, how do multiple minis consume the xl4 tuner? Can 5 minis use a single xl4 tuner -all on different channels at the same time, and still allow th other 3 tuners on the xl4 to operate independently?


At this point, I believe a limit of 2 Minis per host. I can't find the definative language to that, but this has been the understanding since before the Mini was released. There is rumor of up to 9 Minis tied to one host when Dynamic Tuner Allocation is released, but that is in the future.

Currently, in the case of 1 tuner allocated on the host, 2 Minis would then share the tuner on a first-come, first-served basis. In that setup, only 1 Mini could watch Live TV at a time. There are certain timeout limits and such, but the basic answer is 1 tuner allocated, 1 Mini with Live TV.

I'm unclear whether the 2nd Mini could use MRS from host at the same time. Someone else with 2 Minis would have to clear this up.

With that said, I think some of those with Mini's should consider compiling a FAQ as a Sticky for this forum that covers everything and lays it out in black and white.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> And actually another question. Assuming the highly theoretical idea of one host xl4 and a bunch of minis, how do multiple minis consume the xl4 tuner? Can 5 minis use a single xl4 tuner -all on different channels at the same time, and still allow th other 3 tuners on the xl4 to operate independently?


Call TiVo


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

wmhjr said:


> And actually another question. Assuming the highly theoretical idea of one host xl4 and a bunch of minis, how do multiple minis consume the xl4 tuner? Can 5 minis use a single xl4 tuner -all on different channels at the same time, and still allow th other 3 tuners on the xl4 to operate independently?


How could it use one tuner to provide the work of five tuners? And why on earth would all of these folks be watching Live TV if you have a Tivo with lots of content to choose from?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> And actually another question. Assuming the highly theoretical idea of one host xl4 and a bunch of minis, how do multiple minis consume the xl4 tuner? Can 5 minis use a single xl4 tuner -all on different channels at the same time, and still allow th other 3 tuners on the xl4 to operate independently?


No. A tuner can only be tuned to 1 channel at a time.

And in any case only one Mini can requisition a tuner at a time. Even if they both want to watch the same thing it still requires 2 tuners. Assignment of the tuners is first come first serve. So if you have 3 Minis and only have 1 tuner assigned for network use then the first Mini to request it will get it. If you try to access live TV from one of the other TiVos you'll get an error saying there no network tuners available.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

cherry ghost said:


> Call TiVo


Ummm, please review post #18 in this thread.

I've called Tivo twice. According to others in this particular thread, the information provided by both of those TiVo representatives was not correct.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> No. A tuner can only be tuned to 1 channel at a time.
> 
> And in any case only one Mini can requisition a tuner at a time. Even if they both want to watch the same thing it still requires 2 tuners. Assignment of the tuners is first come first serve. So if you have 3 Minis and only have 1 tuner assigned for network use then the first Mini to request it will get it. If you try to access live TV from one of the other TiVos you'll get an error saying there no network tuners available.


That is the answer I expected. And given that, it seems to me that the idea of a single Tivo multi-tuner box hosting multiple mini's is not actually practical unless people are willing to essentially go back to the old days.

I'm not even sure how this would work out in practice. People in this forum have talked about 6 mini's connected to a single xl4. The Tivo rep two days ago mentioned NINE!!!

I think there is quite a bit of confusion as to the true capability and use case of the mini. Clearly, asking Tivo has resulted in answers different than people here are claiming. In either case, I still maintain that for me it's really not much of a bargain, and still a step back from what cable providers have been delivering for years.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

jrtroo said:


> How could it use one tuner to provide the work of five tuners? And why on earth would all of these folks be watching Live TV if you have a Tivo with lots of content to choose from?


Ah, but if it's multiple mini's per multi-tuner Tivo, it means that if/when tuners are consumed by season pass recordings, and for example somebody wants to just watch something else for a short while, they can't - or else they sacrifice the recordings.

And btw, I never said all would be watching live TV. But more than one could easily be (live sports, etc).


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

It appears you are confusing live tv with streams from the premiere. They are totally different.

Or- you wrote your initial question poorly, as you say


> Can 5 minis use a single xl4 tuner -all on different channels at the same time


 Using a tuner requires live TV.


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## Loach (Jan 11, 2013)

tatergator1 said:


> At this point, I believe a limit of 2 Minis per host. I can't find the definative language to that, but this has been the understanding since before the Mini was released. There is rumor of up to 9 Minis tied to one host when Dynamic Tuner Allocation is released, but that is in the future.
> 
> Currently, in the case of 1 tuner allocated on the host, 2 Minis would then share the tuner on a first-come, first-served basis. In that setup, only 1 Mini could watch Live TV at a time. There are certain timeout limits and such, but the basic answer is 1 tuner allocated, 1 Mini with Live TV.
> 
> ...


A member on another thread confirmed using 3 minis on a host earlier today without problems:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9573376#post9573376


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

jrtroo said:


> It appears you are confusing live tv with streams from the premiere. They are totally different.
> 
> Or- you wrote your initial question poorly, as you say Using a tuner requires live TV.


No, I am not confusing it. I'm just trying to get a straight answer about what the mini can and can not do. As stated (several times) I called Tivo twice and got very consistent answers from each representative. That is, that the mini can only see content on the 4 tuner Premier that it has selected as its tuner "host" and not the other premiers that may or may not be on the network. Second, that the Tivo reps referenced connecting up to 9 tuners to an XL4.

I assumed myself that live TV would be limited to available tuners but really had not thought through the details on that one. What I had not thought about specifically is whether multiple mini's on an XL4 for example would somehow be "allowed" to consume more tuners if they simultaneously wanted to get to live TV.

I'll say it again - Tivo has really done a very very poor job in adequately describing the characteristics of this product. Whether or not the product is great or terrible is a different discussion. For me, it's a non-starter assuming it cannot stream from multiple Premiers. Since people here are saying this is not true but Tivo has stated emphatically that the mini cannot, then I have to assume that it won't until Tivo states it clearly. Otherwise, it's a "feature" that might be a mistake that could disappear at any time.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> That is the answer I expected. And given that, it seems to me that the idea of a single Tivo multi-tuner box hosting multiple mini's is not actually practical unless people are willing to essentially go back to the old days.
> 
> I'm not even sure how this would work out in practice. People in this forum have talked about 6 mini's connected to a single xl4. The Tivo rep two days ago mentioned NINE!!!
> 
> I think there is quite a bit of confusion as to the true capability and use case of the mini. Clearly, asking Tivo has resulted in answers different than people here are claiming. In either case, I still maintain that for me it's really not much of a bargain, and still a step back from what cable providers have been delivering for years.


The Mini's don't work quite the same as regular TiVos. They don't default to live TV. They have a screen saver for their default. You have to specifically request live TV via the menu or by pressing the live TV button. At which point it checks with the host to see if there is a free tuner and if there is grabs it. If not you get an error.

If you go back into the TiVo menus it releases the tuner back to the host immediately. It also releases the tuner automatically if there has been no input from the remote for 1.5 hours.

So the only time it's really a problem is if you're actually using more then 2 Minis to watch live TV at the same time. If not then 2 tuners could easily be shared by 9 Minis.

There are other limitations imposed on streaming as well that would cause an issue. A single TiVo can never have more then 3 out going streams at a time. So if you had 9 Minis you'd still never be able to use more then 3 at any one moment even for regular streaming, not just live TV.

There is some evidence that suggests that TiVo is working on a new 6 tuner unit which will be available later this year. It will likely be able to dedicate more tuners to Minis and probably support more outgoing streams. Although I still expect the limit to be 4 or less.

If you really need 9 Minis then you'd need at least 3 host units for them to connect to.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan, thanks for this response. It answers at least part of the question for me. I will say that this part does not go toward my lack of interest - the biggest question I have remains the multi-premier streaming to a single mini question. I've seen some posts on this site that show that people have gotten it to work but Tivo always indicates that it is restricted to one. I'm very reluctant to assume things work that Tivo themselves deny or do not understand. Frankly, my experience is that the things they say SHOULD work can be problematic enough that I don't want to go outside of that scope.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That works fine. It can even stream from 2 tuner units.

When you're using the Mini it's basically a reflection of the host unit. It has a My Shows list which looks identical to the host TiVo. And at the bottom of that list you can select your other TiVos and pick shows from them as well. (premiere units only)


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Thank you. Seems as though Tivo needs to do a much better job training their own representatives. Maybe I need to reconsider whether a mini "might" help in my case. Right now, I'd still say probably no, but this is a much better situation than what the Tivo people said.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

What is your situation?


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

geekmedic said:


> Are you sure about that cost of the additional CableCard? We're in the same market, and I was charged $9.95/month two years ago when I had a CableCard for another device. Of course you may not be a Comcast customer, but they have the majority of the market in Atlanta.


Yea, I am with Comcast and I know what you are talking about at $9.95 though as this is what I used to get charged for some additional ones. And several threads on this board have talked about how AWFUL the Comcast billing is and how inconsistent it is.

The way it is SUPPOSE to work is the first device is free. Cable card or Comcast box. The 2nd cable card in the SAME DEVICE (i.e. Series 3 TiVo) is only a $1.50/month. Then, any additional cable card is an "outlet fee" at $9.95/month with a $2.50 "equipment credit". I have my first two cable cards in two totally different Premieres and they don't really have any way of knowing they are two different boxes. I told them they are both in the same box & they just took my word for it so they just kept charging me $1.50 for the extra one.

That is Comcast for you.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> What is your situation?


Large house. Fully CAT6 enabled (16 port gig switch). Very solid RG6 cable plant.

Very diverse viewing interests.

Want live capability where each display is.

Need a minimum of 6 tuners available plus live TV

Want to be able to watch recorded content on one device in a room, stop, and then resume from that stopped point in another room.

Must be able to see all recorded content on all devices.

Concerned about device failure (currently have XL4, Premier, and HD - and a retired HD. Every single device except the "newest" one (premier) has failed and required replacement. This includes retired devices, such as retired HD and boxes I no longer have. Not just hard drives, but....)

Existing Tivo performance is "so-so". XL4 is pretty lethargic to be honest. It's the slowest device in the house by far.

Given this, replacing the HD and premier with another XL4 and a mini "might" work.

Concerns:

Software. Every new Tivo I've gotten has had more defects for the first 6 months at least than I'm comfortable with.

Speed. Not sure in practice how fast the mini will really be. I've seen some strange things.

Support. When I'm getting what appears to be clearly incorrect info about the product directly from Tivo - twice - I'm less than enthused about taking a chance on the product.

Digital Rights Management: Will I be able to view Amazon instant downloads recorded on XL4 through mini? Important because I won't be able to get Amazon via Mini, right?

This is kind of it in a nutshell at the moment.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

news4me2 said:


> I think it would be great if TiVo sold subscriptions for the Mini software so it could just be run from the Roku box...


This the best response ever. Turn Tivo into true dlna. Then any internet connected tv could become tivo, including roku type boxes.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

jrtroo said:


> How could it use one tuner to provide the work of five tuners? And why on earth would all of these folks be watching Live TV if you have a Tivo with lots of content to choose from?


LOL. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to actually read that ridiculous post. Obviously it would be horribly impractical, but I wonder if it is possible to tune the 3 HD's that are in one QAM with one tuner if someone had the right software? Kind of like DISH is doing with PTAT, getting 4 channels off of one TP with one tuner.

If you only have 3-4 people, 9 minis and one Premiere XL4 might do the trick, just to move stuff to different locations.

What I do wonder, is can 3 Mini's all watch the same channel live off of one tuner? I'm thinking no, but I don't see what it's a technical impossibility. Or, could one start a recording, go to live, and then the others do the same?



buscuitboy said:


> That is Comcast for you.


Yeah, Comcast is insane. Their systems are all different, they have different capabilities, different lineups, different problems.

For the CableCards, where it's real murky is, would two Ceton cards on an MCE PC be one device? What about two HDHR's in a network closet somewhere feeding the same PC? But what if you have the 6-tuner version that has a single power supply with two units?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> Large house. Fully CAT6 enabled (16 port gig switch). Very solid RG6 cable plant.
> 
> Very diverse viewing interests.
> 
> ...


My recommendation... Wait for the 6 tuner unit to be released then put one of them in the main viewing area and Mini's everywhere else. The 6 tuner unit should have faster hardware and the Mini software should be fully realized by then.

Also invest in UPSes for every room. I've had dozens of TiVos over the last 13 years and only two failures. But all of my TiVos have always been connected to a UPS. Power fluctuation are the enemy of electronics.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

wmhjr said:


> Ummm, please review post #18 in this thread.
> 
> I've called Tivo twice. According to others in this particular thread, the information provided by both of those TiVo representatives was not correct.


He was being sarcastic since you're apparently being very dismissive of people giving you data based upon their own experiences with the hardware and/or their likely higher knowledge of the subject than random people on a phone help line.

Should one be skeptical of stuff they read on the Internet? Of course, but eventually you can figure out who's giving you good info and who isn't Especially, dismissing them AND THEN immediately asking for more information is what gets those sorts of responses.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> If you go back into the TiVo menus it releases the tuner back to the host immediately. It also releases the tuner automatically if there has been no input from the remote for 1.5 hours.


I wish there was a way to configure this. I would like to have the live tv option last for at least 2 hours, preferably 3.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> My recommendation... Wait for the 6 tuner unit to be released then put one of them in the main viewing area and Mini's everywhere else. The 6 tuner unit should have faster hardware and the Mini software should be fully realized by then.
> 
> Also invest in UPSes for every room. I've had dozens of TiVos over the last 13 years and only two failures. But all of my TiVos have always been connected to a UPS. Power fluctuation are the enemy of electronics.


Thank, appreciate the advice, however I don't think I'd ever be comfortable with a 6 tuner master. Too much risk of a single device (the 6 tuner) failing and then I have absolutely nothing. No content retained, no ability to use any TV whatsoever. I realize that YMMV, however as I've mentioned, every single Tivo I've ever owned with the exception of the most recent Premier, has failed within 12 months of purchase. Yes, Tivo has replaced them all, but that also means lost content and time. In that same period, the same exact Verizon DVR is still running without an error. The Tivos are a much better interface, but frankly they have been astoundingly unreliable in my experience. I will always have at least two "masters" in order to prevent a situation where the loss of a single device takes out my entire system.

Also, a single 6 tuner plus minis would not give me 6 available tuners PLUS Live TV. I'll still need at least two actual Tivo DVRs.

BTW, I already have good UPSs on every single Tivo. I've done that from the start. Interestingly, I've done that against the advice of Tivo, who with my HDs, said that the UPS could be causing some of the early software issues. Tivo support actually told me several times that I should not be using UPSs. Of course, that is advice I would not accept.

Not sure if I can wait until 6 tuners. I'm monthly (not lifetime) on 2 of my 3 devices, and the monthly fees are killing me. I need to move to lifetime or do something else. The mini has some potential but i'll still need at least two 4 tuners.

I do appreciate the response.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

mattack said:


> He was being sarcastic since you're apparently being very dismissive of people giving you data based upon their own experiences with the hardware and/or their likely higher knowledge of the subject than random people on a phone help line.
> 
> Should one be skeptical of stuff they read on the Internet? Of course, but eventually you can figure out who's giving you good info and who isn't&#8230; Especially, dismissing them AND THEN immediately asking for more information is what gets those sorts of responses.


No, I'm not being dismissive. What I am doing is not depending on feature/functions that Tivo themselves dismiss and say are not supported. Because if I do that, and then those features/functions are eliminated by Tivo, I have no recourse. That is a totally prudent and reasonable strategy.

Further, I expect Tivo to know the core and base capabilities of their own product. I don't think that's too much to expect. Perhaps my expectations are too high.

And, BTW, this was not a "random help line". This was Tivo sales. I expect them to know what their product is supposed to do. What it is marketed to do. What they are committing that it will do. And when two different calls, to two different reps, results in very consistent answers that are contrary to what people are saying here, then it's reasonable to be cautious.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

Finalrinse said:


> I ordered a TiVo Mini yesterday for the master bedroom. I currently have a Comcast DVR in there that I'm paying $9.95 per month for, plus I hate the user interface. The Comcast DVR is going back to save the $9.95 towards the Mini. I currently have two TiVo's with cable cards and the cards are free. This will be perfect for me


Be careful with this. I have seen SEVERAL people do something similar thinking they will come out ahead when in fact they wind up paying MORE cause they are basically breaking up some sort of Comcast bundled service that normally includes hardware too.

Take away the hardware (Comcast DVR), and they could wind up pricing EVERYTHING individually. Just a thought.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

buscuitboy said:


> Be careful with this. I have seen SEVERAL people do something similar thinking they will come out ahead when in fact they wind up paying MORE cause they are basically breaking up some sort of Comcast bundled service that normally includes hardware too.
> 
> Take away the hardware (Comcast DVR), and they could wind up pricing EVERYTHING individually. Just a thought.


This is usually not the case, only with specific triple-play packages.


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## dsnotgood (Aug 26, 2010)

The OP is annoying. I agree with the other guy..call tivo since you obviously don't trust the "Internet people" here who actually use the device. I mean after all... If they work for tivo they HAVE TO know absolutely everything about it right? RRRIIGGHHTTT??!


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

dsnotgood said:


> The OP is annoying. I agree with the other guy..call tivo since you obviously don't trust the "Internet people" here who actually use the device. I mean after all... If they work for tivo they HAVE TO know absolutely everything about it right? RRRIIGGHHTTT??!


Amazing. Whatever. So you don't find it disconcerting that two different sales reps would have totally incorrect descriptions of what the product could do? And that they would both emphatically state that the Mini could ONLY see the content on the "host" device? So that is your definition of "know(ing) absolutely everything about it"?

Sorry if I've been burned by trusting random people who have "made something work" on forums which is in conflict with what the manufacturer has endorsed before. Some of those handy little "features" often have a mysterious way of evaporating, since the product disclaimer up front was that it would not do "whatever" feature/function to begin with. I can see my expectation that a very simple and common feature explanation should be able to be described by the people designing, manufacturing, selling and supporting the product is too high a bar for you


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## dsnotgood (Aug 26, 2010)

wmhjr said:


> Amazing. Whatever. So you don't find it disconcerting that two different sales reps would have totally incorrect descriptions of what the product could do? And that they would both emphatically state that the Mini could ONLY see the content on the "host" device? So that is your definition of "know(ing) absolutely everything about it"?
> 
> Sorry if I've been burned by trusting random people who have "made something work" on forums which is in conflict with what the manufacturer has endorsed before. Some of those handy little "features" often have a mysterious way of evaporating, since the product disclaimer up front was that it would not do "whatever" feature/function to begin with. I can see my expectation that a very simple and common feature explanation should be able to be described by the people designing, manufacturing, selling and supporting the product is too high a bar for you


No I don't. Most phone reps don't really care about whatever product they are helping with. It's just a job and they do what is required to get by. The fact that you expect them all to be pros when I bet half of them don't even use tivos at home is ridiculous and shows total lack of critical thinking on your part. And to discount the people's opinions here who most of them OWN AND really care for their tivos so therefore will always be more knowledgeable than some phone reps again speaks volumes about you.

You must have a fun time at best buy whenever you go shopping for something. I mean...if they work at best buy they have to know everything about all tech right? Anyways I'm done with this thread. Good luck and have faith in people. We are not all out to get you. You seem like someone who watches cable tv news and believes everything they say without doing any thinking about it if its true or not...after all if its on TV it HAS to be true.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

So back to a more rational discussion, since (thankfully) dsnotgood is done with this thread.... (even though I think he has failed to read the thread and somehow thinks I'm the OP when I'm not....

Has anybody seen anything directly from Tivo that addresses specifically the access to now playing recordings from multiple Tivos on a network rather than from the single "host" 4 tuner premier? I spent a good deal of time looking around the Tivo product and support material on their site and found one relatively obscure reference that seemed to insinuate that they believe it works on multiples? Again - I am NOT dismissing any experiences of Tivo owners here. I am simply trying to determine if this is or is not a stated capability of the mini. Tivo is spending a great deal of time and effort marketing this device, and frankly it is so geared toward (IMHO) a single multi-tuner device with multiple mini devices attached that I remain very cautious. I don't want to spend money on a device that may or may not end up with limited capability.

BTW, I still maintain that it is absolutely NOT unreasonable to expect Tivo sales and support people to be able to accurately answer this question. Frankly, contrary to the previous poster, I find it ludicrous to compare wanting clarification and confirmation from the vendor in question to simply only "watching cable news". That post is not only offensive, but it is without any possible logic on this planet.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> So back to a more rational discussion, since (thankfully) dsnotgood is done with this thread.... (even though I think he has failed to read the thread and somehow thinks I'm the OP when I'm not....
> 
> Has anybody seen anything directly from Tivo that addresses specifically the access to now playing recordings from multiple Tivos on a network rather than from the single "host" 4 tuner premier? I spent a good deal of time looking around the Tivo product and support material on their site and found one relatively obscure reference that seemed to insinuate that they believe it works on multiples? Again - I am NOT dismissing any experiences of Tivo owners here. I am simply trying to determine if this is or is not a stated capability of the mini. Tivo is spending a great deal of time and effort marketing this device, and frankly it is so geared toward (IMHO) a single multi-tuner device with multiple mini devices attached that I remain very cautious. I don't want to spend money on a device that may or may not end up with limited capability.
> 
> BTW, I still maintain that it is absolutely NOT unreasonable to expect Tivo sales and support people to be able to accurately answer this question. Frankly, contrary to the previous poster, I find it ludicrous to compare wanting clarification and confirmation from the vendor in question to simply only "watching cable news". That post is not only offensive, but it is without any possible logic on this planet.


Read this section

*"How do I watch recorded content from the host DVR or other Premiere series DVRs on TiVo Mini"*

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2557/session/L2F2LzEvc2lkLzJaQ0didWxs


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## waterchange (Jun 29, 2010)

wmhjr said:


> Has anybody seen anything directly from Tivo that addresses specifically the access to now playing recordings from multiple Tivos on a network rather than from the single "host" 4 tuner premier? I spent a good deal of time looking around the Tivo product and support material on their site and found one relatively obscure reference that seemed to insinuate that they believe it works on multiples? Again - I am NOT dismissing any experiences of Tivo owners here. I am simply trying to determine if this is or is not a stated capability of the mini..


In their Tivo Mini Troubleshooting page there are sections for "I am experiencing playback issues while streaming content from my host DVR or another DVR on my network" and "I am unable to stream recordings from my host DVR or another DVR on my network". Directly from Tivo describing streaming content from the host DVR or another DVR on the network which is what you're asking proof for. Good enough?

Oops - Cherry Ghost has a much better reference and beat me by 4 minutes


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Yeah, that's what I found too, but remain worried that when explicitly asked, they deny support for viewing content on any box other than the "host" premier. I just tried for kicks calling weakknees and asked the same specific question. They said no, it is not intended to play or stream content from any premier other than the 4 tuner Premier that it is using as its host. That was less than 5 minutes ago.

Look guys, I know this sounds crazy. However like I said, I think lots of us have in the past been burned by a feature/function in different devices that is not explicitly advertised about a product, and then when there are issues, they have been denied support, etc. I am astounded that if they truly intended to support this functionality that they would not clearly indicate it. Their failure/reluctance to do so and the fact that it's not just me that they're telling "no" to makes me very cautious.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Yeah, that's what I found too, but remain worried that when explicitly asked, they deny support for viewing content on any box other than the "host" premier. I just tried for kicks calling weakknees and asked the same specific question. They said no, it is not intended to play or stream content from any premier other than the 4 tuner Premier that it is using as its host. That was less than 5 minutes ago.
> 
> Look guys, I know this sounds crazy. However like I said, I think lots of us have in the past been burned by a feature/function in different devices that is not explicitly advertised about a product, and then when there are issues, they have been denied support, etc. I am astounded that if they truly intended to support this functionality that they would not clearly indicate it. Their failure/reluctance to do so and the fact that it's not just me that they're telling "no" to makes me very cautious.


I'm definitely able to use both my TiVo Minis to watch recorded content from my now OTA only Premiere.(I turned my Cable Card in Saturday)


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> Yeah, that's what I found too, but remain worried that when explicitly asked, they deny support for viewing content on any box other than the "host" premier. I just tried for kicks calling weakknees and asked the same specific question. They said no, it is not intended to play or stream content from any premier other than the 4 tuner Premier that it is using as its host. That was less than 5 minutes ago.
> 
> Look guys, I know this sounds crazy. However like I said, I think lots of us have in the past been burned by a feature/function in different devices that is not explicitly advertised about a product, and then when there are issues, they have been denied support, etc. I am astounded that if they truly intended to support this functionality that they would not clearly indicate it. Their failure/reluctance to do so and the fact that it's not just me that they're telling "no" to makes me very cautious.


So that's what you were referring to earlier when you said you "found one relatively obscure reference that seemed to insinuate that they believe it works on multiples"? It says, "You can stream recorded content to TiVo Mini from not only your host DVR, but from any other Premiere series on the same account and network." I think that's pretty clear.

At this point, maybe it's time to call TiVo a third time and reference that support page.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

It's your right to be cautious. I think you're just giving Tivo's support staff too much credit. This product is brand new and they were just recently trained on this. As part of the training, you can be sure "you need a 4-tuner box" was drilled into their heads, perhaps to too great of a degree that they are now confusing the needs for a 4-tuner host with the ability to stream from 2-tuner boxes.

Hopefully Tivo support will gain some clarity on this particular issue. You could also post over on forums.tivo.com and see what sort of response you get from the support staff that monitors their forum. They seem to be more knowledgeable than the lower-level support.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

cherry ghost said:


> So that's what you were referring to earlier when you said you "found one relatively obscure reference that seemed to insinuate that they believe it works on multiples"? It says, "You can stream recorded content to TiVo Mini from not only your host DVR, but from any other Premiere series on the same account and network." I think that's pretty clear.
> 
> At this point, maybe it's time to call TiVo a third time and reference that support page.


Yes, I think that's obscure since you have to root around to find it rather than being shown as a capability. Coincidentally, I did just that. Interestingly, they replied with the same reply (at least to this point). They said that the mini is only supposed to be able to see recorded content on the 4 tuner premier that it is attached to, and to see content on other premiers, you would need to "transfer" the content from the non-4 tuner host to the 4 tuner host, and then view it on the mini. I pointed out this exact support page statement and got a scratched head confused response, and then a ticket number.

I find it very interesting that every single time that I ask this question of Tivo (and Weakknees) I get a very very specific answer in that streaming from the "non-host" is not supported. Every time I get an answer that you're supposed to "transfer" the content to the "host" unit. Clearly people here who actually have the device are experiencing something different. I get that. The question is whether or not that functionality will be supported moving forward or not. Is it "official"?

I think the fact that there is now even a reference number/ticket associate with this issue, and that not only have 4 different Tivo folks at this point responded that the ability to "stream" from other premiers on the network is not supported, and the fact that Weakknees reports being trained/familiarized with the product the same way, is reason enough to push this, no? Seriously - I just don't want to get "orphaned" by a questionable device with a non-advertised feature/function ending up being eliminated later (apparently much like some initial mini users started out with the ability to "manage" things that ended up going away).


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

tatergator1 said:


> It's your right to be cautious. I think you're just giving Tivo's support staff too much credit. This product is brand new and they were just recently trained on this. As part of the training, you can be sure "you need a 4-tuner box" was drilled into their heads, perhaps to too great of a degree that they are now confusing the needs for a 4-tuner host with the ability to stream from 2-tuner boxes.
> 
> Hopefully Tivo support will gain some clarity on this particular issue. You could also post over on forums.tivo.com and see what sort of response you get from the support staff that monitors their forum. They seem to be more knowledgeable than the lower-level support.


I agree with you. I am, however, very surprised if this was just a training issue, as every single rep I've talked to so far - as well as the techs that they put me on hold for to ask questions - have responded exactly the same.

You would think that were Tivo even remotely effective in releasing this product, a multi-DVR scenario would be part of the training. After all, the only two options are

1) Single 4 tuner Premier

2) Multiple Premiers including at least 1 4 tuner model.

Nothing else should work - or at least they should be clear about that.

Seems pretty simple to me.... That's why the caution. They have even repeated insisting that you can't even stream from multiple 4 tuner premiers. Crazy.

One question for those of you who have one. Anybody using one that would normally use optical out for sound? How do you deal with only HDMI if the sound in your flat panel is not sufficiently loud? I'm sure there's a solution - just not sure what it is yet.

If what you folks using them today turns out to be their "official" support and marketing posture, then the mini isn't a bad deal and has some value to me as well. If not, then it's a non-starter for me at least. I seriously hope it's just a training and marketing screw-up.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> Thank, appreciate the advice, however I don't think I'd ever be comfortable with a 6 tuner master. Too much risk of a single device (the 6 tuner) failing and then I have absolutely nothing. No content retained, no ability to use any TV whatsoever. I realize that YMMV, however as I've mentioned, every single Tivo I've ever owned with the exception of the most recent Premier, has failed within 12 months of purchase. Yes, Tivo has replaced them all, but that also means lost content and time. In that same period, the same exact Verizon DVR is still running without an error. The Tivos are a much better interface, but frankly they have been astoundingly unreliable in my experience. I will always have at least two "masters" in order to prevent a situation where the loss of a single device takes out my entire system.
> 
> Also, a single 6 tuner plus minis would not give me 6 available tuners PLUS Live TV. I'll still need at least two actual Tivo DVRs.
> 
> BTW, I already have good UPSs on every single Tivo. I've done that from the start. Interestingly, I've done that against the advice of Tivo, who with my HDs, said that the UPS could be causing some of the early software issues. Tivo support actually told me several times that I should not be using UPSs. Of course, that is advice I would not accept.


I have owned about 30 TiVos in the last 13 years, of various makes and models. I have had 3 failures ever...

I had a hard drive die in a S2, but it did so slowly so I was able to get the shows off before it failed completely.

I had an eSATA drive connected to a S3 die, but also slowly so I was able to get most of the stuff off that as well.

I had the power supply in a S3 go bad which causes a problem with one of the CableCARD slots but did not effect any of the recordings already on the box so I was able to get everything off of it as well.

Not once have I had one die and cause me to lose everything. If you have that problem as frequently as you say then you might want to test the wiring in your house because that is not normal.

And honestly, to me, TV shows are not that important. If my TiVo died and I lost everything I'd be slightly upset, but it's not the end of the world. These days pretty much every show could be gotten from an alternative source so it's not like I couldn't recover them anyway. The convenience of having everything stored on a single unit, with a single My Shows and single To Do List outweighs any risk of failure in my mind.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I have owned about 30 TiVos in the last 13 years, of various makes and models. I have had 3 failures ever...
> 
> I had a hard drive die in a S2, but it did so slowly so I was able to get the shows off before it failed completely.
> 
> ...


Dan, I come from an engineering perspective. To me, I also more or less agree that TV shows are not that important. However, the ONLY reason for me to have Tivo is to insure that what I DO want, is recorded, and retained. Without that, Tivo is absolutely worthless to me. I'm not being derogatory - that's just why I have it. Otherwise, Tivos would not be in my home That's why I paid the premium to have Tivo as opposed to other alternatives. My point is that Tivo is a "premium" even by their own description. These days a whole lot is NOT available from alternative locations yet. Frankly, when it is, then there's another challenge for Tivo, because once again, the value of the Tivo will (without other value additions which don't exist today) become further degraded.

My experience with Tivo failures includes a total of 3 HDs and 2 Elite/XL4s. None have been abused or mistreated. All are on UPS's. I also have multiple displays, audio systems, Xbox, PS3, etc etc etc. The Tivos do not get moved, they are in well ventilated and protected areas, and all on UPS. I have not had these issues with any other device, including the probably more than 20 PCs, etc that have been through here in that time (right now there are 7 machines in the house).

Most of my Tivo failures have not been hard drives. Matter of fact, I believe only one was. And I can't blame Tivo for that - they don't manufacture drives any more than anyone else. They're mechanical devices, and can sometimes fail. My device failures were when the Tivo behaved totally irrationally, and support would try for ages to fix the issues finally getting to the resolution of replacing the device. In "most" cases, replacing the device fixed - or at least improved - the problem. Problem is with Tivo (or Cableco DVR for that matter) when you lose one, you lose it all. And as opposed to current situation, if you go with a 6 tuner and a bunch of minis, if ANYTHING goes wrong with the 6 tuner, you have absolutely no TV capability in your home other than IP based.

It's all personal preference. No matter what however, reliability and predictability of recording is an absolute core function of the Tivo.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Also, I already mentioned in another post that Tivo should already be unifying the "now playing" list and "to do" list. With current technology using their own completely controlled APIs and web services, there is no reason whatsoever that this is not technical feasible. It's just a matter of priority. So, it's not an either or - unless Tivo chooses to make it so.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Actually we've discussed the possibility of multiple TiVos sharing a single To Do List before and I honestly don't think it's ever going to happen. While the protocols to make it happen mostly already exist, reliability is still a big concern. There are a ton of situations you'd have to account for if communication between TiVos was lost after something was scheduled but before it was recorded. Add to that the fact that TiVo's scheduling system isn't dynamic and wouldn't be able to react to a loss of communication that occurred "last minute" and I just don't see it as a viable option.

It's much easier, and more reliable, for TiVo to simply increase the number of tuners in a single box and try their best to make the hardware as reliable as possible. And I believe that's going to be their plan going forward.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Actually we've discussed the possibility of multiple TiVos sharing a single To Do List before and I honestly don't think it's ever going to happen. While the protocols to make it happen mostly already exist, reliability is still a big concern. There are a ton of situations you'd have to account for if communication between TiVos was lost after something was scheduled but before it was recorded. Add to that the fact that TiVo's scheduling system isn't dynamic and wouldn't be able to react to a loss of communication that occurred "last minute" and I just don't see it as a viable option.
> 
> It's much easier, and more reliable, for TiVo to simply increase the number of tuners in a single box and try their best to make the hardware as reliable as possible. And I believe that's going to be their plan going forward.


It would not be rocket science to implement. They just haven't bothered. It would be a great feature to have to be able to re-schedule tuners and then maintain a single NPL that's universal to all boxes in the house, and THEN add users to that so that each user has their own, sharing duplicate show files, all fully distributed.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

wmhjr said:


> Further, I expect Tivo to know the core and base capabilities of their own product.  I don't think that's too much to expect. Perhaps my expectations are too high.


Yes, with call help lines being low paid script monkeys, *unfortunately* your expectations are way too high.. (essentially the same as help in a store -- btw, I admit to WILLINGLY helping the latter go down in quality since I buy on price, not on salespeople knowledge quality, which means the products cost more.)


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

mattack said:


> Yes, with call help lines being low paid script monkeys, *unfortunately* your expectations are way too high.. (essentially the same as help in a store -- btw, I admit to WILLINGLY helping the latter go down in quality since I buy on price, not on salespeople knowledge quality, which means the products cost more.)


We'll have to agree to disagree - strongly. "help in a store" is entirely and totally different than a call center product focused sales force. Their singular and only purpose in life while at work is to sell a very small number of different devices and services, and they work directly for the company that designs, engineers, manufactures, sells, distributes and supports the products in question. When so many have such apparently incorrect - but also very consistent - explanations of the core functions of a product, it is not the sales force. It's the company, and extremely poor product training and an extremely poor knowledge base. On the tech support side of Tivo, we all have experienced that. How many times have people on this site called in to report an "issue" only to be told that "we've never heard of that before" - yet tons of people have already reported it and have reference numbers? Broken and/or ineffective KM.

There are only a very few uses cases for the use of a mini - period.

1) A mini connected to a single 4 tuner premier home.
2) A mini connected to a multiple premier home which has at least one 4 tuner.
3) A mini connected to a multiple Tivo home with at least one 4 tuner Premier.
4) A mini attempting to be connected to any home without either a 4 tuner or any premiers.

They all must be connected via either MoCa or Ethernet no matter what.

How hard is it for Tivo to describe each of these? Sure doesn't seem that tough to me......

BTW, I have been (and currently am) responsible for very large contact centers. I would never EVER endorse or accept that kind of performance.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Actually we've discussed the possibility of multiple TiVos sharing a single To Do List before and I honestly don't think it's ever going to happen. While the protocols to make it happen mostly already exist, reliability is still a big concern. There are a ton of situations you'd have to account for if communication between TiVos was lost after something was scheduled but before it was recorded. Add to that the fact that TiVo's scheduling system isn't dynamic and wouldn't be able to react to a loss of communication that occurred "last minute" and I just don't see it as a viable option.
> 
> It's much easier, and more reliable, for TiVo to simply increase the number of tuners in a single box and try their best to make the hardware as reliable as possible. And I believe that's going to be their plan going forward.


Dan, I was thinking of a more simple approach. I agree that the timing and characteristics of doing this all via a single "to do" on a Tivo UI would be more than I'm comfortable expecting Tivo to execute with reliability. But there's another approach.

I wasn't even worried about "realtime" ability. I'd be more than happy with a "unified" online GUI that is far more relevant than what currently exists in "My Tivo" on Tivo.com. Some examples:

1) A consolidated "To Do" list that spans devices. There is no reason why this could not be generated whatsoever.

2) A consolidated "scheduler" that spans devices.

3) A way to "bulk delete" or something similar. Going back and deleting item by item on the device GUI is frankly irritating and inefficient IMHO. As such larger capacities and higher density of tuners have been added, legacy ways of managing data on the devices has gotten to the point where the process no longer scales.

Since users would know that the "timeliness" of requests, etc are subject to the same restrictions that already exist within the Tivo.com experience, I simply don't understand the issue. Either Tivo should do this, or else it's a statement that the online experience (not using the device GUI) simply is not reliable.

I for one would be very very happy to just have these feature/functions. Because Tivo.com isn't necessarily the most snappy of sites (in particular the MyTivo portion) having to jump back and forth between devices is simply ineffective. I typically maintain an excel spreadsheet to overcome the lack of capability within Tivo. It would sure be nice to be able to deal with this in a way other than jumping from screen to screen or manually updating spreadsheets. I realize this would not be realtime, and "short term" requests would still need to come via the devices.

Does this make sense?


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Are you aware of the kmttg software developed by moyekj on this forum. Granted, it's not GUI consistent with the Tivo, but it is very powerful.

Should Tivo offer something like this, maybe. They probably feel that the expense of developing and maintaining advanced features like these aren't cost effective for the number of subscribers that would actually use them.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

tatergator1 said:


> Are you aware of the kmttg software developed by moyekj on this forum. Granted, it's not GUI consistent with the Tivo, but it is very powerful.
> 
> Should Tivo offer something like this, maybe. They probably feel that the expense of developing and maintaining advanced features like these aren't cost effective for the number of subscribers that would actually use them.


I am. I'm also saying that while I give huge kudos to moyekj, this is something that Tivo "Should" be doing. If Tivo is marketing a "Whole Home Solution" then it ought to be "whole home".

This is not something that I feel is either advanced nor difficult. Either Tivo should be de-emphasizing the use of MyTivo online or they should incorporate. One of the biggest pet peeves I have with newer capabilities such as what Tivo and others are endorsing is providing such massively larger tuner and storage capacity, but failing to adopt feature/function management to scale with these changes.

I'm not saying that Tivo does not share your perspective. I'm just saying that IMHO that perspective is flawed. Modern Tivo capabilities have outgrown "traditional" or "legacy" ways of managing them. Tivo has a real opportunity (since they totally own the UI, OS, etc) to very seamlessly combine the user experience. That IMHO could provide the single most compelling advantage for Tivo over competition moving forward - but only if Tivo acknowledges it and does something to enable it.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

With a 30 day money back that TiVo offers on the Mini just purchase one and see if it meets your needs or expectations, if it does who cares what any TiVo CSR told anybody, if not just send it back for a refund. I have more trust with people on this form than any TiVo CSR.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

lessd said:


> With a 30 day money back that TiVo offers on the Mini just purchase one and see if it meets your needs or expectations, if it does who cares what any TiVo CSR told anybody, if not just send it back for a refund. I have more trust with people on this form than any TiVo CSR.


 +1 :up:


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lessd said:


> With a 30 day money back that TiVo offers on the Mini just purchase one and see if it meets your needs or expectations, if it does who cares what any TiVo CSR told anybody, if not just send it back for a refund. I have more trust with people on this form than any TiVo CSR.


Very simple. And I've already said it before.

If it is a "unadvertised" and "unspecified" function that "just happens to work" right now, then even if people here have it working today, there is no obligation to either continue support of that feature/function - nor to support it if/when it has an issue. Let's say 60 days after you get it, the mini fails to do what we're talking about and Tivo has never acknowledged it as a "as designed" feature/function. It makes absolutely no difference just how many great people on this forum think it should work - Tivo is under no obligation to try and make it work.

There are all kinds of examples where this has happened (not just at Tivo). I doubt that I'm the only one who has experienced this. It is exactly the reason why hosting providers work via SLAs, why contracts exist, etc. If the feature/function is of critical importance to a prospective owner then acknowledgement of the feature/function being supported is critical.

That being said, I called back late last night and a Tivo CSR this time DID say that the mini was intended to support streaming from multiple Premiers within a home network. This was the follow up call to the ticket created yesterday afternoon.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

wmhjr said:


> I am. I'm also saying that while I give huge kudos to moyekj, this is something that Tivo "Should" be doing. If Tivo is marketing a "Whole Home Solution" then it ought to be "whole home".


TiVos idea of a whole home solution is one box with multiple extenders not multiple boxes working as one.

While many of us would love to see unification and that even includes Margret aka TiVoDesign on Twitter, there are multiple complex design decisions that would have to be addressed. TiVo's solutions may not be what people want either.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> Very simple. And I've already said it before.
> 
> If it is a "unadvertised" and "unspecified" function that "just happens to work" right now, then even if people here have it working today, there is no obligation to either continue support of that feature/function - nor to support it if/when it has an issue. Let's say 60 days after you get it, the mini fails to do what we're talking about and Tivo has never acknowledged it as a "as designed" feature/function. It makes absolutely no difference just how many great people on this forum think it should work - Tivo is under no obligation to try and make it work.
> 
> ...


The Mini is a $250 piece of consumer electronics if at some point it doesn't function the way you want you through it away. I am all for doing product research but honestly I do not spend hours or days of my time on such a low cost item. You got the answer that you can stream from a dual tuner Premiere now, sure there is some slight chance that function could go away, same with the world ending tomorrow. I recommend deciding if you want it or not and moving on.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That function isn't going to go away. It's designed into the product. Whoever told you it couldn't do it originally was an idiot. Just because they work for TiVo doesn't mean they know what they hell they're talking about. CSRs are a crap shoot. Sometimes you get one that actually knows the products and what they can do and sometimes you get an idiot talking out of his a$$.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> I am all for doing product research but honestly I do not spend hours or days of my time on such a low cost item.


The Mini pricing discussion has probably been beaten to death, but I can't let this one slide. Obviously, not everyone agrees with your assessment of "low cost" since the topic continually resurfaces.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

innocentfreak said:


> TiVos idea of a whole home solution is one box with multiple extenders not multiple boxes working as one.
> 
> While many of us would love to see unification and that even includes Margret aka TiVoDesign on Twitter, there are multiple complex design decisions that would have to be addressed. TiVo's solutions may not be what people want either.


I absolutely disagree that there are "multiple complex design decisions that would have to be addressed" in order to add this unification to the online "mytivo" experience. Bluntly, from a technology perspective, nothing is changed except for creating an "all" filter rather than by device to see a "to do" on Tivo.com. The "delete" capability, I agree, could have implications.

So, there is no more nor less "design complexity" than already exists for the unified "to do" list or the unified "scheduling" function.

Tivos idea seems quite short sighted, especially given the constraints of available tuners (even assuming a 6 tuner unit is to be released).

JMHO.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> That function isn't going to go away. It's designed into the product. Whoever told you it couldn't do it originally was an idiot. Just because they work for TiVo doesn't mean they know what they hell they're talking about. CSRs are a crap shoot. Sometimes you get one that actually knows the products and what they can do and sometimes you get an idiot talking out of his a$$.


Dan, the point here is that it was not just the "one person who told me you couldn't do it originally". It was that person, the next person, the person after that, and the person after that. All on separate calls - all saying the exact same thing. It was also Weakknees, who strongly indicated that this is exactly what Tivo had informed them as to product capability. It was additionally, the tech support people that the CSRs put me on hold each time to get the question answered, and where they yet again came back with the same, apparently incorrect, answer.

This was a clear miss by Tivo in effectively preparing for a product launch.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> Dan, the point here is that it was not just the "one person who told me you couldn't do it originally". It was that person, the next person, the person after that, and the person after that. All on separate calls - all saying the exact same thing. It was also Weakknees, who strongly indicated that this is exactly what Tivo had informed them as to product capability. It was additionally, the tech support people that the CSRs put me on hold each time to get the question answered, and where they yet again came back with the same, apparently incorrect, answer.
> 
> This was a clear miss by Tivo in effectively preparing for a product launch.


I think the initial confusion was caused by the fact that the Mini has two basic functions. One is streaming recorded programs and the other is streaming live TV. Live TV streaming only works with the 4 tuner host. However streaming recorded programs works with any Premiere unit on your network.

The UI of the Mini is identical to the UI of a Premiere unit. When you access My Shows and it shows you the My Shows list of the 4 tuner host unit. And at the bottom it shows all the other Premiere units on your network which you can select to see their My Shows list and stream programs from them. The experience is nearly identical to using the 4 tuner host directly.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

DaveDFW said:


> The Mini pricing discussion has probably been beaten to death, but I can't let this one slide. Obviously, not everyone agrees with your assessment of "low cost" since the topic continually resurfaces.


I am not talking about what the Mini may or may not be worth, I am saying any $250 item is a relatively low cost item even if someone doesn't have $250 it still isn't much money relative to what stuff costs today. Also what I am saying is if I am gong to buy something that costs me $30,000 (like a car) I am willing to spend more research hours than I would on something that costs me $250 (like a Mini) and at some point you have to stop the research and just make a buying decision.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

wmhjr - 

Have you never dealt with CSRs from the inside of a company? It is extremely difficult to get a large group (or even a medium sized group) to move to a new script. Not saying it should not have matched your expectations, but it is simply a fact for groups of people. It could simply be a minor administrative error that did not populate the new scripts timely, and not the fault of the CSR at all.

Anyhow, just let it be. You know the right answer now, not sure why you keep beating on this (though i think you'll tell me again anyhow).


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## swerver (May 18, 2012)

I don't know about you guys, but personally I'm more interested in alternative mini ideas than the fact that someone can't believe a csr didn't know what they were talking about.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

When it comes to TiVo there are really only 4 options for watching your recorded shows on another TV...

1) Use some sort of video distribution system or long cables to physically connect the TiVo to another TV. (this includes using network transcoders like Slingbox)

2) Use a second TiVo to stream shows.

3) Use a Mini to stream shows

4) Use a jailbroken iOS device and a TiVo Stream to either connect via HDMI or AirPlay to a second TV. (the TiVo app does not support HDMI or AirPlay by default, so the iOS device has to be jailbroken for it to work)

#2 & #3 are the only ways to get full resolution HD streams without tying up the host TiVo. And out of the two the Mini is cheaper both in initial costs and operational costs. (i.e. power consumption, CableCARD, outlet fees, etc...)


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

swerver said:


> I don't know about you guys, but personally I'm more interested in alternative mini ideas than the fact that someone can't believe a csr didn't know what they were talking about.


Well the original post was about using multiple TiVo DVRs instead of one DVR and a Mini so that idea has been around since MRV started. For people that MRV still works for they could also use a HTPC, but honestly if you are using a TiVo DVR that is about your only options for a whole home system.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> When it comes to TiVo there are really only 4 options for watching your recorded shows on another TV...
> 
> 1) Use some sort of video distribution system or long cables to physically connect the TiVo to another TV. (this includes using network transcoders like Slingbox)
> 
> ...


For completeness I'd have broken 2 up into
2) Use a second TiVo to:
a) Stream shows (requires both to be Premieres)
b) Copy shows (works with any mix of S3, HD, or Premieres; does not work for copy protected shows)

But that's kind of nitpicking (and admittedly 2b may be nearly useless; depending on your cable provider)


wmhjr said:


> Very simple. And I've already said it before.
> 
> If it is a "unadvertised" and "unspecified" function that "just happens to work" right now, then even if people here have it working today, there is no obligation to either continue support of that feature/function - nor to support it if/when it has an issue. Let's say 60 days after you get it, the mini fails to do what we're talking about and Tivo has never acknowledged it as a "as designed" feature/function. It makes absolutely no difference just how many great people on this forum think it should work - Tivo is under no obligation to try and make it work.


I see your point. On the other hand TiVo had abandoned documented and advertised functionality before -- Kidzone springs to mind. When they converted to the HD interface they dropped it and (IIRC) stated they had no plans to bring it back.

Simply because TiVo advertises a function isn't really a guarantee of it's long term support either. <shrug>


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm pretty sure their TOS says they're allowed to add/remove functionality at will, so they could technically change the feature set completely years down the road and there is nothing you could do. There isn't even a way to refuse updates.


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## swerver (May 18, 2012)

kmttg + plex + roku is working well for my needs. It does take a hit on speed and convenience as Dan noted, but is otherwise quite useful and workable, for me. No live tv, but the way people talk around here, most people wouldn't care. Who watches live tv, anyway?   My 2 TB in the tivo was almost full so I just dumped half of it to my server and can now watch from both tvs. In the future, I just KUID anything I want to watch upstairs and x minutes later (depending on how often you set kmttg to run) I can. 

Considering all the people that are vocally upset that the mini is so expensive for being basically a roku (whether you agree with that or not), I'd think this would be a logical option - and you could do it long before the mini came around. In fact, I think it pretty well illustrates what you are paying for with the mini - speed and convenience. Same with the stream. I'd pay for both but I'm a lowly 2 tuner android user.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

swerver said:


> kmttg + plex + roku is working well for my needs. It does take a hit on speed and convenience as Dan noted, but is otherwise quite useful and workable, for me. No live tv, but the way people talk around here, most people wouldn't care. Who watches live tv, anyway?   My 2 TB in the tivo was almost full so I just dumped half of it to my server and can now watch from both tvs. In the future, I just KUID anything I want to watch upstairs and x minutes later (depending on how often you set kmttg to run) I can.
> 
> Considering all the people that are vocally upset that the mini is so expensive for being basically a roku (whether you agree with that or not), I'd think this would be a logical option - and you could do it long before the mini came around.


Most people wont do this because setting it up is a bit complicated and it requires a PC to be running 24/7. Another advantage to the Mini is it only draw ~6W. I PC is going to draw close to 100W even when not doing anything.



swerver said:


> In fact, I think it pretty well illustrates what you are paying for with the mini - speed and convenience. Same with the stream. I'd pay for both but I'm a lowly 2 tuner android user.


Money could fix both of those problems for you. A little extra $$ and you could be a 4 tuner iOS user in no time.


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## swerver (May 18, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> When it comes to TiVo there are really only 4 options for watching your recorded shows on another TV...
> 
> 1) Use some sort of video distribution system or long cables to physically connect the TiVo to another TV. (this includes using network transcoders like Slingbox)
> 
> ...


It's possible with option 1 also. Videos can be streamed at full resolution in plex or other htpc options like xbmc etc. Unless your #1 does not include media servers, in which case you should add an option to the list. (maybe not for everyone depending on their cable provider, I'm guessing your cable provider locks everything down?)


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

swerver said:


> kmttg + plex + roku is working well for my needs.


Definitely a workable solution, unless your TTG capabilities are crippled by the copy protection flag, which is many of us.


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## swerver (May 18, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> Most people wont do this because setting it up is a bit complicated and it requires a PC to be running 24/7. Another advantage to the Mini is it only draw ~6W. I PC is going to draw close to 100W even when not doing anything.


True, but it's still an option. Lots of people have a pc anyway, and you can add 2TB for under $100. I don't plan to leave it on 24/7, (though I suppose I might end up doing so out of laziness) and I doubt it draws that much power in idle... I should find out. I have a relatively small house and family so for some families they may stress the system more.

Another pro for media server: stream to the roku, sure, but I can also stream to any phone or tablet.



Dan203 said:


> Money could fix both of those problems for you. A little extra $$ and you could be a 4 tuner iOS user in no time.


Yes, it's always just a little more, isn't it? I would probably buy the rumored 6 tuner, stream built in, better processor/more responsive, better apps tivo 5 that also handles hd audio playback along with the video and rich fanart interfaces (ok I threw those last couple parts in myself, I can dream) and at that point, grab a mini as well, but I don't see any apple devices in my future.  And I'm too late to the party to bother with the current 4 tuner tivos - I just got my first tivo last May.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

*Screw!!* I don't know who at TiVo been telling people that the Mini will not work with the 2 tuner TP but I just called TiVo tech support and talked to Dave and he said without question the Mini will stream from *ANY* series 4 TiVo, now and in the future, the only problem is many people are confusing the two tuner TiVo-HD with a 2 tuner TiVo, and the Mini will not work with the TiVo-HD model. The reference # for my call is *130319012995*.
I am also going to get a Mini and need it to work with the TPs with 2 tuners.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

And the Mini works great streaming content from a two tuner Premiere.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

wmhjr said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree - strongly. "help in a store" is entirely and totally different than a call center product focused sales force.


You're calling them a sales force. How are they not different from the people you call up at the cable company? Haven't you had trouble calling people at the cable company to get useful info? (BTW, I am NOT one of the people who "hates the cable company".)


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

mattack said:


> You're calling them a sales force. How are they not different from the people you call up at the cable company? Haven't you had trouble calling people at the cable company to get useful info? (BTW, I am NOT one of the people who "hates the cable company".)


Actually, though the conversation has moved past this-----

No - I've found serious issues with dealing with either VZ or Comcast on a number of fronts. However, the one area I have not had issue with is having them describe their products. Comcast was in my experience quite good at that, but less effective at delivering product. VZ is horrible at "customer service" but excellent at delivering product. By customer service, I meaning billing, account management, etc. VZ is such a siloed company that one group isn't integrated into another, resulting in a terribly fractured customer experience. The people at Tivo on the sales line are highly focused, product specific sales people. They have a VERY small number of devices and configurations to deal with. I don't blame the people on the phone. I blame Tivo for screwing up a product release. It's a management issue.

BTW, I called back (I also have a reference number, BTW. Mine is 130318-006069) and FINALLY got "Jeff", who was very clear about the product capabilities. He looked through all of my contact history, looked at the notes, and concurred that while he can't believe all those people screwed up, they were all consistently wrong.

UPDATE: Realized today that while "Jeff" got the streaming thing right, he was totally inaccurate about the "dedicated tuner" situation. And I mean REAL inaccurate. No possible way that his answers/explanations were anything even remotely close to correct. We're talking about being off by zip codes.


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## swarto112 (Sep 10, 2012)

Man, wmhjr. I think youre Tivos dies so much cuz you bored them to death by arguing every point. Holy crap. SImple solution to all your questions? Use an iPad. U can access both dvr right now. U can watch tv, right now. U can look at lists right now. The functionality you crave so much is available thru Tivo's iOS app, right now. I have an xl4 and Tivo HD, been using it simialr to the way you describe your wishes for a cpl years. I used FIOS for years on these and worked great. In a Time Warner market now...wouldve filled the house with Minis on Fios, TWC no way. Infrastructure is terrible. Waiting to hear from these forums how they handle the minis on TWC first



wmhjr said:


> Actually, though the conversation has moved past this-----
> 
> No - I've found serious issues with dealing with either VZ or Comcast on a number of fronts. However, the one area I have not had issue with is having them describe their products. Comcast was in my experience quite good at that, but less effective at delivering product. VZ is horrible at "customer service" but excellent at delivering product. By customer service, I meaning billing, account management, etc. VZ is such a siloed company that one group isn't integrated into another, resulting in a terribly fractured customer experience. The people at Tivo on the sales line are highly focused, product specific sales people. They have a VERY small number of devices and configurations to deal with. I don't blame the people on the phone. I blame Tivo for screwing up a product release. It's a management issue.
> 
> ...


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Most people wont do this because setting it up is a bit complicated and it requires a PC to be running 24/7. Another advantage to the Mini is it only draw ~6W. I PC is going to draw close to 100W even when not doing anything.


My Latitude with quad core i7 processor and 1T drive uses less than 90 watts at full load and about 12 at idle. PCs don't have to be so power hungry as they once were. Many companies, including my own, have been able to justify continued computer upgrades solely on power savings vs any performance improvement the last few years.

Sorry, back on subject now.

Multiple Premieres is not that much more expensive than a Premiere 4 and a mini. Granted, as you add more sets, it changes but few homes have more than 3 viewing locations. Lets look at the numbers.

3 Tivo Premieres with lifetime service = 450 x 3 = 1350
1 Tivo Premiere 4 with lifetime service and 2 minis = 650 + 250 + 250 = 1150

Plus the Premieres with lifetime have a long history of very high residual value when time to upgrade. No history with the mini but it likely will be better than most accessories but less than the DVR.

And those secondary Tivos do not HAVE to have cable cards. If you only watch live tv once in a while, its not hard to start a recording remotely and watch while its recording.

The multi Premiere arrangement gives you 2 more tuners, 150 hrs more recording space, netflix and amazon at all 3 locations and OTA tuning capability at all 3 locations. All for $200 more. For some, including me it's a worthy upgrade.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

swarto112 said:


> Man, wmhjr. I think youre Tivos dies so much cuz you bored them to death by arguing every point. Holy crap. SImple solution to all your questions? Use an iPad. U can access both dvr right now. U can watch tv, right now. U can look at lists right now. The functionality you crave so much is available thru Tivo's iOS app, right now. I have an xl4 and Tivo HD, been using it simialr to the way you describe your wishes for a cpl years. I used FIOS for years on these and worked great. In a Time Warner market now...wouldve filled the house with Minis on Fios, TWC no way. Infrastructure is terrible. Waiting to hear from these forums how they handle the minis on TWC first


Pal, if you have nothing constructive to add, don't bother. Simple solution? Learn English. And you need to do a little research to understand exactly what you're talking about. You are spamming incorrect and inaccurate information. Maybe it would help if you would stop opening your mouth long enough to understand what people are trying to accomplish. You either are deliberately misunderstanding what I' (and others) would like to do, or you're being dishonest. I use the iPad app. Been using it longer than you apparently. I'm thoroughly familiar with what it does - and what it does not do.

BTW, I could care less about TW. Never mentioned it. I've been a Tivo customer apparently far longer than you, with far more units, and have been here many many years longer. Maybe keep that in mind.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I have no patience for trolls who are either unwilling or incapable of having civil discussions.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Have to agree with jcrthorne on that one. I'm trying out a mini, but frankly, it's a tough argument. Seems like a very niche opportunity. When the all in price starts at $250, it kills a tuner, provides no recording capability, it's kind of tough. I can see a very appealing situation where you have Ethernet but no RG6 in a location, and the mini could provide an easy solution. But, it's really not cheap. Honestly the most compelling use for one in my case would be in my shop.

Seems like more and more, the "acceptable" price for Tivo keeps going up. If the mini required no service, it would be awesome even if it killed a tuner or two. And, it would likely have driven increased sales of Tivo DVRs. At either $6/month or a total cost of $250 plus the loss of a recording tuner, the math is a bit tougher. I know Tivo is in a tough place here, but nonetheless, it's a tough argument too. 

I'm trying a mini now. I have to say, it's a tough call right now to say whether or not I keep it I know life in general is a serious of guesses, but this one is harder than most to commit to .


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> Have to agree with jcrthorne on that one. I'm trying out a mini, but frankly, it's a tough argument. Seems like a very niche opportunity. When the all in price starts at $250, it kills a tuner, provides no recording capability, it's kind of tough. I can see a very appealing situation where you have Ethernet but no RG6 in a location, and the mini could provide an easy solution. But, it's really not cheap. Honestly the most compelling use for one in my case would be in my shop.
> 
> Seems like more and more, the "acceptable" price for Tivo keeps going up. If the mini required no service, it would be awesome even if it killed a tuner or two. And, it would likely have driven increased sales of Tivo DVRs. At either $6/month or a total cost of $250 plus the loss of a recording tuner, the math is a bit tougher. I know Tivo is in a tough place here, but nonetheless, it's a tough argument too.
> 
> I'm trying a mini now. I have to say, it's a tough call right now to say whether or not I keep it I know life in general is a serious of guesses, but this one is harder than most to commit to .


Even being overpriced, the math still works out very well for it.


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## drkside (Mar 23, 2013)

still overpriced


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Have to agree with jcrthorne on that one. I'm trying out a mini, but frankly, it's a tough argument. Seems like a very niche opportunity. When the all in price starts at $250, it kills a tuner, provides no recording capability, it's kind of tough. I can see a very appealing situation where you have Ethernet but no RG6 in a location, and the mini could provide an easy solution. But, it's really not cheap. Honestly the most compelling use for one in my case would be in my shop.
> 
> Seems like more and more, the "acceptable" price for Tivo keeps going up. If the mini required no service, it would be awesome even if it killed a tuner or two. And, it would likely have driven increased sales of Tivo DVRs. At either $6/month or a total cost of $250 plus the loss of a recording tuner, the math is a bit tougher. I know Tivo is in a tough place here, but nonetheless, it's a tough argument too.
> 
> I'm trying a mini now. I have to say, it's a tough call right now to say whether or not I keep it I know life in general is a serious of guesses, but this one is harder than most to commit to .


With every new HD TiVo the price has gone down and continues to go down. In 2004 my first HD TiVo was $1k plus I think a $5 a month fee.

Then in 2006 the S3 was $800 but lifetime wasn't offered so you had to get monthly service.

Then in 2007 the TiVoHD came out for even less and I think lifetime was back at $299 for the MSD price.

In 2010 the premiere came out and I was able to get them with lifetime service for a little over $500.

In 2011 a four tuner version came out, with MSD lifetime it was under $900, which again was cheaper than two of the two tuner Premieres with lifetime.

Now the Mini is out and the price is only $250 which gives you access to all the TiVo recordings from TiVos on the network.

So later this year when the six tuner box is released, I expect the box with lifetime will save even more money, when you price it per tuner.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

lessd said:


> *Screw!!* I don't know who at TiVo been telling people that the Mini will not work with the 2 tuner TP but I just called TiVo tech support and talked to Dave and he said without question the Mini will stream from *ANY* series 4 TiVo, now and in the future, the only problem is many people are confusing the two tuner TiVo-HD with a 2 tuner TiVo, and the Mini will not work with the TiVo-HD model. The reference # for my call is *130319012995*.
> I am also going to get a Mini and need it to work with the TPs with 2 tuners.


Wait!? Are you saying that you don't need a 4 tuner just to set the damn thing up? That's different than others have reported.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

magnus said:


> Wait!? Are you saying that you don't need a 4 tuner just to set the damn thing up? That's different than others have reported.


*No,* you need the TP-4 (or TPXL-4) to use and set up a Mini but after that the Mini will stream from any Series 4 TiVo 2 tuner, 4 tuner any Series 4 model. Another question people are asking is if you purchase a TP-4, set up your Mini than return your TP-4 will the Mini still work with the remaining TP-2 units, I don't know the answer to that, and until somebody tries that and it works for a month or so we will not know that answer.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

lessd said:


> *No,* you need the TP-4 (or TPXL-4) to use and set up a Mini but after that the Mini will stream from any Series 4 TiVo 2 tuner, 4 tuner any Series 4 model. Another question people are asking is if you purchase a TP-4, set up your Mini than return your TP-4 will the Mini still work with the remaining TP-2 units, I don't know the answer to that, and until somebody tries that and it works for a month or so we will not know that answer.


Ok, thanks. was thinking that Tivo had not gone as far off their rocker as I had thought when you posted that. But I guess they still want to alienate the folks that only have 2 tuner boxes.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

An alternative to a Mini that I have not seen mentioned - a Premiere w/o a CableCARD. If you want to watch something "live" that is not available OTA or via clear QAM, simply start recording it on a CableCARDed Premiere (kmttg or the TiVo app is good for this) and stream the recording. Makes it difficult to channel surf but you also don't have to dedicate a tuner.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> An alternative to a Mini that I have not seen mentioned - a Premiere w/o a CableCARD. If you want to watch something "live" that is not available OTA or via clear QAM, simply start recording it on a CableCARDed Premiere (kmttg or the TiVo app is good for this) and stream the recording. Makes it difficult to channel surf but you also don't have to dedicate a tuner.


That's more expensive then a Mini though. Even a clearence TiVo Premiere is $100 + $13/mo or $400/lifetime. A Mini is only $100 + $6/mo or $150/lifetime.

For most people with cable the Mini makes better economic sense. The only people who should be looking at multiple Premieres are those that need OTA or analog, or those that need more then 4 tuners.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> That's more expensive then a Mini though. Even a clearence TiVo Premiere is $100 + $13/mo or $400/lifetime. A Mini is only $100 + $6/mo or $150/lifetime.


+ the price of acquiring a 4-tuner TiVo. Directly comparing the cost of a Premiere to the Mini ignores all of the other factors.



Dan203 said:


> For most people with cable the Mini makes better economic sense. The only people who should be looking at multiple Premieres are those that need OTA or analog, or those that need more then 4 tuners.


Or someone who doesn't already have a TP 4 or XL4. Or wants the option of using it as full TiVo in the future.

BTW, I was mainly pointing that you do not have to install a CableCARD in a 2-tuner Premiere and thus incur the associated cost.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> An alternative to a Mini that I have not seen mentioned - a Premiere w/o a CableCARD. If you want to watch something "live" that is not available OTA or via clear QAM, simply start recording it on a CableCARDed Premiere (kmttg or the TiVo app is good for this) and stream the recording. Makes it difficult to channel surf but you also don't have to dedicate a tuner.


Or OTA, so you'd get some more tuners out of it. That actually is a good idea in addition to a 4 or XL4 and some Minis, so that you can set some of your network recording up on it to save tuners on the cable-connected TiVo, and with some cable companies that re-compress, better quality.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Or OTA, so you'd get some more tuners out of it. That actually is a good idea in addition to a 4 or XL4 and some Minis, so that you can set some of your network recording up on it to save tuners on the cable-connected TiVo, and with some cable companies that re-compress, better quality.


This may seem like a good idea but we have had that from TiVo when TiVo started MRS, at any time you could have purchased a 746 used TP for about $50, spent $400 for lifetime, not put a cable card in the unit and for $450 you have a somewhat Mini, it is bigger, used 20 watts more power, can't set up another TiVo for recording as the Mini can, and cost $200 more. OH and did I mention that you would have to hard wire Ethernet cable to each TP or purchase a MaCo unit for each TiVo, that would cost another $150 if you have two TPs already. 
If you want to add another TV viewing place in your home IMHO the Mini is the way to go* IF *you have one or more four tuner TiVos. (MoCa is built in)


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> This may seem like a good idea but we have had that from TiVo when TiVo started MRS, at any time you could have purchased a 746 used TP for about $50, spent $400 for lifetime, not put a cable card in the unit and for $450 you have a somewhat Mini, it is bigger, used 20 watts more power, can't set up another TiVo for recording as the Mini can, and cost $200 more. OH and did I mention that you would have to hard wire Ethernet cable to each TP or purchase a MaCo unit for each TiVo, that would cost another $150 if you have two TP already.
> If you want to add another TV viewing place in your home IMHO the Mini is the way to go* IF *you have one or more four tuner TiVos. (MoCa is built in)


I'm just saying it would be good to have one location with a full blown TP, as you have two more tuners and it could serve as a backup if the cable is not working.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> That's more expensive then a Mini though. Even a clearence TiVo Premiere is $100 + $13/mo or $400/lifetime. A Mini is only $100 + $6/mo or $150/lifetime.
> 
> For most people with cable the Mini makes better economic sense. The only people who should be looking at multiple Premieres are those that need OTA or analog, or those that need more then 4 tuners.


No Dan, those that need more than 3 tuners. An XL4 with a mini is a 3 tuner plus mini live TV solution.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lessd said:


> This may seem like a good idea but we have had that from TiVo when TiVo started MRS, at any time you could have purchased a 746 used TP for about $50, spent $400 for lifetime, not put a cable card in the unit and for $450 you have a somewhat Mini, it is bigger, used 20 watts more power, can't set up another TiVo for recording as the Mini can, and cost $200 more. OH and did I mention that you would have to hard wire Ethernet cable to each TP or purchase a MaCo unit for each TiVo, that would cost another $150 if you have two TPs already.
> If you want to add another TV viewing place in your home IMHO the Mini is the way to go* IF *you have one or more four tuner TiVos. (MoCa is built in)


AND if you can afford to turn that 4 tuner box to a 3 tuner box. As we've discussed to death, you either have to never have live TV at the mini location, or the 4 tuner box is permanently a 3 tuner box.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

jcthorne said:


> Lets look at the numbers.
> 
> 3 Tivo Premieres with lifetime service = 450 x 3 = 1350
> 1 Tivo Premiere 4 with lifetime service and 2 minis = 650 + 250 + 250 = 1150
> ...


3 Tivo Premieres with lifetime service = *550* x 3 = *1650*

$500 more.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

tlc said:


> 3 Tivo Premieres with lifetime service = *550* x 3 = *1650*
> 
> $500 more.


Only if you buy them _*new from TiVo*_.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> Only if you buy them _*new from TiVo*_.


So, now the argument is that Tivo is less expensive in the long run because you just don't buy new equipment? Really?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> So, now the argument is that Tivo is less expensive in the long run because you just don't buy new equipment? Really?


Unless you just want to pay $550 you can get a better deal by just waiting for a special offer or even by buying from a retailer that is running a special. $500 with lifetime is common and we have seen $450 now and then.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> So, now the argument is that Tivo is less expensive in the long run because you just don't buy new equipment? Really?




Why do some people insist on turning every thread like this one into an argument rather than a discussion of the various options - pros and cons of each one? Let people weigh the various options and make their own decision rather than trying to validate your decision by proselytizing.

Whatever the cost of each option is one factor in the decision. Have you never heard of a cost/benefit analysis?


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> Why do some people insist on turning every thread like this one into an argument rather than a discussion of the various options - pros and cons of each one? Let people weigh the various options and make their own decision rather than trying to validate your decision by proselytizing.
> 
> Whatever the cost of each option is one factor in the decision. Have you never heard of a cost/benefit analysis?


That makes me laugh a little. You actually just asked if I've heard of a cost benefit analysis while we're discussing which costs are accurate and which are not in - a cost benefit analysis. There is nobody here who has said cost is the only driver. There are people here who have insisted that Tivo is always cheaper.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> That makes me laugh a little. You actually just asked if I've heard of a cost benefit analysis while we're discussing which costs are accurate and which are not in - a cost benefit analysis. There is nobody here who has said cost is the only driver. There are people here who have insisted that Tivo is always cheaper.


I should have read the entire you responded to rather than just the part you quoted. Mea Culpa. However, I was just pointing out that you do not have to buy buy new nor do you have to buy from TiVo. And as atmuscarella pointed out, you can usually get a discount at some point even if you buy from TiVo, although that also applies to the TP4 or XL4.



wmhjr said:


> There is nobody here who has said cost is the only driver.


If this post doesn't qualify, it comes awfully close.



wmhjr said:


> There are people here who have insisted that Tivo is always cheaper.


I must've missed those posts.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> So, now the argument is that Tivo is less expensive in the long run because you just don't buy new equipment? Really?


No, its because you can purchase a 'new' tivo with lifetime and warranty from the Tivo clearance area for $450. Yes they are sold as refurb but every one I have gotten was new in plain brown box with a hard drive with less than 10 hrs on it.

They are also on sale for $49 pretty regularly on Amazon, Woot, Best Buy and others.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> I should have read the entire you responded to rather than just the part you quoted. Mea Culpa. However, I was just pointing out that you do not have to buy buy new nor do you have to buy from TiVo. And as atmuscarella pointed out, you can usually get a discount at some point even if you buy from TiVo, although that also applies to the TP4 or XL4.
> 
> If this post doesn't qualify, it comes awfully close.
> 
> I must've missed those posts.


My answers to those are that you need to compare apples to apples. Obviously the majority of buyers cannot buy "used" or refurbished. And the discounts are overwhelmingly small if the equipment is sold "as new" with a warranty. $50 off on a$900 investment for a single unit doesn't measurable impact the math. If you're talking about buying used, then the argument remains the same, as unless other people are buying new stuff, there is no used stuff - or there is no Tivo service.

Even the thread you pointed to doesn't IMHO point to cost being the only driver. I have no problem with Tivo being more expensive. The question is as you alluded to - what are the benefits of the product compared to alternatives, and what are the corresponding costs, limitations, and RISKS.

I honestly think a SWOT would be more appropriate for us to discuss in terms of Tivo value and cost. What are the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, etc. We all know TINSTAFL, right? There is no such thing as a free lunch.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

jcthorne said:


> No, its because you can purchase a 'new' tivo with lifetime and warranty from the Tivo clearance area for $450. Yes they are sold as refurb but every one I have gotten was new in plain brown box with a hard drive with less than 10 hrs on it.


No, because the majority of customers can not purchase from Tivo clearance. People have to buy new units in order to create opportunity in the clearance center. But anyway, it simply does not matter. The general cost remains the same. Today in the clearance center are standard 2 tuner low capacity Premiers for $50 off. Just does not change the math.



jcthorne said:


> They are also on sale for $49 pretty regularly on Amazon, Woot, Best Buy and others.


Not sure what you're saying here, but if you're talking about 2 tuner premiers, again - does not change anything. Especially if they are used.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> No, because the majority of customers can not purchase from Tivo clearance. People have to buy new units in order to create opportunity in the clearance center. But anyway, it simply does not matter. The general cost remains the same. Today in the clearance center are standard 2 tuner low capacity Premiers for $50 off. Just does not change the math.


What "a majority of customers" can or cannot do is irrelevant to this discussion. This thread started out as a discussion of various options to the Mini and should not be limited to what most people can do. Even if you have to pay "full" price, you absolutely cannot say it is never worth it under any circumstances. If you're going to look at it purely from a cost perspective, most people should probably just go with the cable providers whole home DVR solution.

In any event, if and when TiVo ever implements dynamic tuner allocation, more weight will go to the Mini side. Having to permanently remove 1 or 2 tuners from your pool of tuners available for recording is a terrible idea. Combined with the fact that you can't save what is in the live buffer makes for a device of limited utility.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> What "a majority of customers" can or cannot do is irrelevant to this discussion. This thread started out as a discussion of various options to the Mini and should not be limited to what most people can do. Even if you have to pay "full" price, you absolutely cannot say it is never worth it under any circumstances. If you're going to look at it purely from a cost perspective, most people should probably just go with the cable providers whole home DVR solution..


Sorry but the thread drifted, like it or not. And what customers "can" or "will" do is entirely relevant to this discussion. I've never ever said that overall the mini is "never worth it under any circumstances". I do maintain that Tivo is in a tough spot, and really needs to consider the market in a far more effective way. Playing catch-up stinks, but due to decaying innovation at Tivo, that is exactly what they now have to do. I am surprised that nobody has taken issue with your cost perspective. While I kind of agree, there are a bunch of people here who really truly believe that nothing is as inexpensive as Tivo. I'm not in that bunch.



lpwcomp said:


> In any event, if and when TiVo ever implements dynamic tuner allocation, more weight will go to the Mini side. Having to permanently remove 1 or 2 tuners from your pool of tuners available for recording is a terrible idea. Combined with the fact that you can't save what is in the live buffer makes for a device of limited utility.


I totally agree with that. I am very impressed with the general performance of the mini. That being said, choosing to retain it will require the addition of another XL4 in my home due to the reduction of recording tuners and the inability to integrate whatsoever with Series 3 devices. Actually, the release of the mini IMHO finally puts the nail in the Series 3/HD coffin. I am selling my HDs immediately (both with lifetime) because anyone with any intelligence at all should recognize that they will start declining in resale value REALL fast most likely.

The current Tivo solution is an idea born of frantic fear, having languished so long behind MSO products that they must have felt that anything would be better than nothing. In spite of the fact that many here think I hate Tivo for some reason (seems like transparency is a bad thing for some) I do like Tivo. I ordered another XL4 (I'll probably end up with 2 XL4s, already have 1, and a mini). I'll sell my HDs and just stick my "relatively new 6 month old" premier in a closet. It is the only one which does not have lifetime, so it has no value really. I'll try that for a couple weeks and if it works that'll be my solution. Problem is, how may people are willing to pay, let's see.... $1953.00...... up front. That gets me 7 tuners (really only would like to retain 6, but....) a bunch of recording capability in two spots, and able to watch TV in 3 rooms. With the MSO, 1st DVR free, no cablecards, and you could actually do 2 more DVRs for $40/month. I know they aren't as good but it would give recording capability in all 3, whole house and sufficient tuners. I'd be able to hang on to the $1953. The $40/mo has to be decreased by $7.90 because I still need to pay $7.90 for Tivo cablecards but not with VZ DVR. That makes it $32.10/mo if I were to switch. I'm sticking with Tivo but don't expect any kind of marketing campaign to overcome that. Some folks don't understand that many using these things just don't have an extra $2000 to blow all at once on DVRs.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> No, because the majority of customers can not purchase from Tivo clearance. People have to buy new units in order to create opportunity in the clearance center. But anyway, it simply does not matter. The general cost remains the same. Today in the clearance center are standard 2 tuner low capacity Premiers for $50 off. Just does not change the math.
> 
> Not sure what you're saying here, but if you're talking about 2 tuner premiers, again - does not change anything. Especially if they are used.


No they don't. Anyone can go to the tivo clearance area and see what they offer for sale. Right now its 500gb 2 tuner units at a not so special price but that is not always the case. And the $49 units at Amazon and Woot have been pretty regular over the last year. Its called smart shopping rather than walking into best buy and paying full retail. Regular consumers do it all the time. I am NOT talking about used units on craigslist. NEW, IN BOX with full warranty and available to anyone that cares to look.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

jcthorne said:


> No they don't. Anyone can go to the tivo clearance area and see what they offer for sale. Right now its 500gb 2 tuner units at a not so special price but that is not always the case. And the $49 units at Amazon and Woot have been pretty regular over the last year. Its called smart shopping rather than walking into best buy and paying full retail. Regular consumers do it all the time. I am NOT talking about used units on craigslist. NEW, IN BOX with full warranty and available to anyone that cares to look.


I'm sorry, you misunderstand what I'm saying Most customers can NOT by on clearance, because if "most customers" did, there would be no clearance. Tivo (or any direct business for that matter) simply cannot sell "all" or even "most" of their product as "clearance" or "refurbished". You can only have refurbished if another customer bought new, and returned it. You can only sell "clearance" if customers are buying new product and you're trying to get rid of overstock.

Anybody can log in. Frankly, NOBODY right now can buy a mini, or a mini host device in clearance. They just don't exist.

So the point is, "smart shopping" or otherwise, if you want whole home, you can't buy via clearance. Therefore, you can't use "clearance" as evidence as to how Tivo is cheaper. Them are apples and oranges.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Tivo Premiere 2 tuner units are available in clearance to anyone that wants to order them.

My whole point was that using 2 or 3 Premieres as a whole home solution can be done for not that much more money and may indeed have a better feature set for some users.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

jcthorne said:


> Tivo Premiere 2 tuner units are available in clearance to anyone that wants to order them.
> 
> My whole point was that using 2 or 3 Premieres as a whole home solution can be done for not that much more money and may indeed have a better feature set for some users.


I agree that they may have more use as a whole home solution, but that drives the price way up. The least even a used Premiere with lifetime (using multi discount) is at least $450 each, compared to $250 for the mini. You then also need cablecard fees per month for each. I still also say that it's not really appropriate to quote pricing just for clearance. If everybody did that, there would be no clearance because there would be no "new product sales" to drive returns/refurbs.

I certainly agree that it still might make more sense even though it's even more expensive. You really need to have the right "set of requirements" for the mini to make sense IMHO. I'm still trying one, but will have at least 2 XL4s in addition to the mini to make it work.

BTW, for all those saying the HDs with lifetime will easily sell for $300, mine has been on ebay. Listed at $250, buy it now at $300. No takers or bids as of yet. Maybe it will sell, but it is clear that people are certainly not breaking down the doors to get to it.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

You waited to long to part with the HD. I sold mine for $420 right after I bought my first Premiere. Net cost to upgrade was less than $100. Premiere has been out too long now and added too many features the HD does not support. It is reaching EOL and the values are dropping like the S2s did.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> You waited to long to part with the HD. I sold mine for $420 right after I bought my first Premiere. Net cost to upgrade was less than $100. Premiere has been out too long now and added too many features the HD does not support. It is reaching EOL and the values are dropping like the S2s did.


I tend to agree with this. The Premiere has now been out for 3 years some of the Original Series 3 units have been around for 6.5 years and some TiVo HDs almost 6 years.

The one place where the various Series 3 units might still offer pretty good value is for OTA users, but that is a pretty small subset of the stand alone DVR market and if TiVo releases a new DVR that supports OTA and has more than 2 tuners I think that will dry up too.

Personally if TiVo does release a new DVR with OTA support I plan on buying it and selling my Premiere and have assumed that by then it will not be worth trying to sell my Series 3 units, the same that happened with my Series 2 units.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

it's always going to be better to sell when a new model comes out than three years later. I sold(or gave away) my nine s3 boxes within a couple of months of the Premiere being released. And they covered most of the cost of my lifetime Premieres. And when/if a six tuner box comes out, I will sell my two lifetime Elites within a couple of months as well to cover at least 100% of the cost of one lifetime six tuner box. 

That way there is still more time left on the extended warranties(which help the sale) and there is still a larger market of people to sell to.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I would like to point you folks back to earlier posts, where TivoHD values kept getting tossed around. If you carefully read those posts (in this thread and others) you'll see that many people were making the claim that TivoHDs (right now, without any modifications) are still worth $300 or so. When I went on eBay, and came back saying that I wasn't necessarily seeing that, people told me that I just wasn't seeing it. Now that I have a device that I've put up for sale and am not getting bites, people are seeming to say "well, right NOW they're not worth that, but if you immediately upgrade when a new device comes out and THEN sell your existing device, it works out". 

I specifically called out that the release of the mini (not supporting HDs) probably would decrease the resale value of the HD/S3 as well as the HD having an inability to stream. People here contradicted me, but now seem to be agreeing with me when facts point to evidence? Keep in mind that this is all within the past 10 days......

So, do you guys now agree that the TivoHD is NOT going to continue bringing $300? I will take that unit that is now for sale, put it someplace else, take a bunch more pics, etc. I seriously do not think it will make a darned bit of difference. I could certainly be wrong. It would be nice to be wrong. I don't think I am. I think the TivoHD is probably worth less than $200 at best.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> I would like to point you folks back to earlier posts, where TivoHD values kept getting tossed around. If you carefully read those posts (in this thread and others) you'll see that many people were making the claim that TivoHDs (right now, without any modifications) are still worth $300 or so. When I went on eBay, and came back saying that I wasn't necessarily seeing that, people told me that I just wasn't seeing it. Now that I have a device that I've put up for sale and am not getting bites, people are seeming to say "well, right NOW they're not worth that, but if you immediately upgrade when a new device comes out and THEN sell your existing device, it works out".


Well the Series 3 units have been discontinued for 3 years if you had upgrade anytime in the last three years getting $300 or more would have been normal. At some point everything is just to old and it's value goes down.



wmhjr said:


> I specifically called out that the release of the mini (not supporting HDs) probably would decrease the resale value of the HD/S3 as well as the HD having an inability to stream. People here contradicted me, but now seem to be agreeing with me when facts point to evidence? Keep in mind that this is all within the past 10 days......


Nothing new, Streaming is a Premiere only feature. Series 3 units can not stream content to anything. The Mini is the third devices that streams content first came the actual Premiere DVRs and the Stream now the Mini.



wmhjr said:


> So, do you guys now agree that the TivoHD is NOT going to continue bringing $300? I will take that unit that is now for sale, put it someplace else, take a bunch more pics, etc. I seriously do not think it will make a darned bit of difference. I could certainly be wrong. It would be nice to be wrong. I don't think I am. I think the TivoHD is probably worth less than $200 at best.


Well the last one sold on ebay went for $345 and that was on 3/28/13, the one before that went for $272 on 3/27/13. Both had the original 160GB hard drives. So I am guessing it would be pretty easy to sell one for $200 

P.S. An original Series 3 that was listed as broken sold for $197 on 3/27/13 so if you can not sell your something is really wrong


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> Well the Series 3 units have been discontinued for 3 years if you had upgrade anytime in the last three years getting $300 or more would have been normal. At some point everything is just to old and it's value goes down.
> 
> Nothing new, Streaming is a Premiere only feature. Series 3 units can not stream content to anything. The Mini is the third devices that streams content first came the actual Premiere DVRs and the Stream now the Mini.
> 
> ...


My thoughts: I was skeptical about an HD being worth - today - $300 and said as much, but was repeatedly told that I was wrong. Now, you're saying that maybe it really isn't worth $300, but folks are conveniently ignoring where just a few days ago they insisted that it was worth that much.

I would argue that the Stream does not fit in this picture, as it isn't part of the whole home strategy IMHO, but that doesn't really matter.

What this means for me is that those who are comparing buying Tivo w/lifetime in terms of costs really need to adjust their math. It seems, based on your comments as well, that such a plan requires selling and repurchasing new equipment every 3-4 years. That seems to be the product release cadence that Tivo has.

Again, my belief here is several fold. First, that the financial model must include selling and then replacing (or perhaps replacing and then selling to be more accurate) within a year or so of when a "new" gen is released. If you have This will also add $100 every generation, as when you sell your "qualifying device" you need to add another "qualifying lifetime device" which is $499 vs $399. So, every 3 years for two Tivos, you have at least $900 in lifetime subs, plus the cost of equipment. Or, you need to keep a spare "qualifying device" even if you don't use it, because effectively it's worth at least $100 in sub discounts every generation. Second, that this means really that for a two DVR home, you have at LEAST a spend of (assuming you also want a mini for example) $1200 plus the mini cost, which I won't add in because I'm not yet sure how to calculate how that'll work out over the long haul. Plus cablecards. Subtract from that your resale value of original equipment, which I'll calculate at $600 just for kicks. So, it's $600 plus mini plus cablecards for 3 years plus the original purchase price of $1200. That's a lot of one time investments. The math, if nothing breaks, works out. If you do it at 3yr increments, you can minimize potential failure costs, as break-fix would be limited to $99 per unit for replacement by Tivo plus shipping. So, that's probably the most cost effective model, right? But, that's still far different from what folks were saying before I think.

Just my thoughts.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

wmhjr said:


> I would like to point you folks back to earlier posts, where TivoHD values kept getting tossed around. If you carefully read those posts (in this thread and others) you'll see that many people were making the claim that TivoHDs (right now, without any modifications) are still worth $300 or so. When I went on eBay, and came back saying that I wasn't necessarily seeing that, people told me that I just wasn't seeing it. Now that I have a device that I've put up for sale and am not getting bites, people are seeming to say "well, right NOW they're not worth that, but if you immediately upgrade when a new device comes out and THEN sell your existing device, it works out".
> 
> I specifically called out that the release of the mini (not supporting HDs) probably would decrease the resale value of the HD/S3 as well as the HD having an inability to stream. People here contradicted me, but now seem to be agreeing with me when facts point to evidence? Keep in mind that this is all within the past 10 days......
> 
> So, do you guys now agree that the TivoHD is NOT going to continue bringing $300? I will take that unit that is now for sale, put it someplace else, take a bunch more pics, etc. I seriously do not think it will make a darned bit of difference. I could certainly be wrong. It would be nice to be wrong. I don't think I am. I think the TivoHD is probably worth less than $200 at best.


Out of curiosity, I had a look. There are a lot of variables when looking at the recently sold list here, like hard drive upgrades, etc, but lamenting that your Tivo HD is worth $200 at best is being a bit dramatic, IMHO. Based on recent sales, it's worth at least $250, and could realistically still fetch $300+ depending on the bidders, which is true of any eBay auction.

I also note that you know have a starting bid of $250 on your sale now. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if you end up around $300 by the time the auction closes. eBay auctions are notorious for having the majority of the bidding happen in the last few hours, if not minutes. Patience is key.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I really hope I do. I have two of the HDs with lifetime. The second has an upgraded drive in it. I may hang onto it as it's my "qualifying" Tivo. Whatever I'd sell it for, the implication is that my next purchase will cost me $100 more if I don't have it. So, if it sells for $300, it's really $200, etc. Have to wait and see.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> I really hope I do. I have two of the HDs with lifetime. The second has an upgraded drive in it. I may hang onto it as it's my "qualifying" Tivo. Whatever I'd sell it for, the implication is that my next purchase will cost me $100 more if I don't have it. So, if it sells for $300, it's really $200, etc. Have to wait and see.


The last TiVo-HD one I sold on E-Bay at the end of Feb went for $359 (was a fixed price listing) with free shipping, no upgraded hard drive, stock E-Bay picture of the TiVo. Look at my listing, took about 3 days to sell.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230926334941?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1587.l2649


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> I really hope I do. I have two of the HDs with lifetime. The second has an upgraded drive in it. I may hang onto it as it's my "qualifying" Tivo. Whatever I'd sell it for, the implication is that my next purchase will cost me $100 more if I don't have it. So, if it sells for $300, it's really $200, etc. Have to wait and see.


You don't want to sell the qualifying TiVo before gettign the new one. although in my TiVo use I've always been able to pay the MSD price. Even though all my TiVos have MSD service on them. But I've also bought and sold around twenty of them since late 2006.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> You don't want to sell the qualifying TiVo before gettign the new one. although in my TiVo use I've always been able to pay the MSD price. Even though all my TiVos have MSD service on them. But I've also bought and sold around twenty of them since late 2006.


The point I was making is that you're right - until you then want to upgrade again. In that case, you'll pay the full price for the first upgrade. That's what I did as well. I now have two HDs with lifetime. One is my "qualifying box". I was able to then get the $399 vs $499 lifetime on both of my subsequent premieres. However, if I now sell both HDs, the next box I get will cost me $499 for lifetime. If I keep the qualifying HD, then the next upgrade will be $399 for lifetime. So the "value" of the HD is resale receipt minus $100. Make sense? Point is, when people here are talking about a "continuous upgrade" plan, they continue to use $399 as the "new" lifetime cost of their next box. This can only happen so long as they retain the original qualifying box and do not sell it. If they do, then at least one of the boxes for each generation will be $499 vs $399.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

The last time I checked you can get MSD pricing if you have any active TiVo on your account or if you use the prmo code *PLSR*, TiVo changes things all the time so I don't know today if any of that works.

Just checked the prmo code *PLSR*, works, dropped the Lifetime price from $499 to $399 when applied.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

lessd said:


> The last time I checked you can get MSD pricing if you have any active TiVo on your account or if you use the prmo code *PLSR*, TiVo changes things all the time so I don't know today if any of that works.
> 
> Just checked the prmo code *PLSR*, works, dropped the Lifetime price from $499 to $399 when applied.


YMMV. I just put a TP4 with lifetime into the cart without logging into my Tivo.com account, tried to apply PLSR and I'm told it's not a valid code.


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## Loach (Jan 11, 2013)

tatergator1 said:


> YMMV. I just put a TP4 with lifetime into the cart without logging into my Tivo.com account, tried to apply PLSR and I'm told it's not a valid code.


It doesn't work if you buy it on tivo.com. It works when you buy it from a third party seller like Best Buy or yogicomp. You put the code in when you go to activate service on tivo.com. It also won't do anything for you if you're already eligible for MSD, because lifetime is already $399 under MSD (it won't take your price from $399 to $299).


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lessd said:


> The last time I checked you can get MSD pricing if you have any active TiVo on your account or if you use the prmo code *PLSR*, TiVo changes things all the time so I don't know today if any of that works.
> 
> Just checked the prmo code *PLSR*, works, dropped the Lifetime price from $499 to $399 when applied.


I would also agree that YMMV. Technically, from Tivo what I described as accurate, and I sure would not be willing to bet that you will always be able to get around it.

The Tivo official policy as expressed to me several times by several different Tivo reps during the past few weeks is: You must have ONE qualifying device for which you paid/or are paying full price in order to qualify for MSD on any other device. Specifically I was told that my qualifying device was one of my HDs. If I purchased more equipment, I would receive MSD. If I then sold the HD, I would not be charged an additional $100. However, I would be charged the full $499 the next time I purchased lifetime on a new product. If I sold the HD before buying something now, then I'd pay $499 for lifetime.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> I would also agree that YMMV. Technically, from Tivo what I described as accurate, and I sure would not be willing to bet that you will always be able to get around it.
> 
> The Tivo official policy as expressed to me several times by several different Tivo reps during the past few weeks is: You must have ONE qualifying device for which you paid/or are paying full price in order to qualify for MSD on any other device. Specifically I was told that my qualifying device was one of my HDs. If I purchased more equipment, I would receive MSD. If I then sold the HD, I would not be charged an additional $100. However, I would be charged the full $499 the next time I purchased lifetime on a new product. If I sold the HD before buying something now, then I'd pay $499 for lifetime.


That is what I've always read, but the three times I've called and asked, they have told me that all my boxes were a qualifier for MSD pricing except for the Premiere I have on monthly($6.95 a month). Even though all my lifetime boxes I currently own and previously owned have MSD lifetime on them(or cost less than MSD lifetime pricing. Some boxes I paid $200 for lifetime, like my launch Premieres)


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

So, here is all I can say. This is my experience lately....

Had 2 HDs, 1 XL4, 1 Premiere. One of the HDs w/lifetime was my "qualifying" box. The 1 standard Premiere is not on lifetime (there's a reason - and it's only a few months old). Asked about picking up another XL4 and a mini. Said I was also thinking about selling the HDs, and dropping the Premiere off the account if I did this.

They described exactly what I said above. They dropped the termination fee for the Premiere if I want to drop it. They said if I sold the HDs first, then the XL4 would be $499 for lifetime. If I sold the HD later (at least the one with lifetime) then I'd pay $399 now, but the next box would have a $499 lifetime fee on it. I called 3 times to confirm the answer. All exactly the same.

So, I now have 2 XL4s with lifetime, 2 HDs with lifetime (of which I'm currently trying to sell 1) and a Premiere that I'll likely drop any day now and just throw the box in a closet or sell it cheap. I'm still deciding if I want to keep the other HD. I might just give it to somebody else to use for a while.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> I would also agree that YMMV. Technically, from Tivo what I described as accurate, and I sure would not be willing to bet that you will always be able to get around it.
> 
> The Tivo official policy as expressed to me several times by several different Tivo reps during the past few weeks is: You must have ONE qualifying device for which you paid/or are paying full price in order to qualify for MSD on any other device. Specifically I was told that my qualifying device was one of my HDs. If I purchased more equipment, I would receive MSD. If I then sold the HD, I would not be charged an additional $100. However, I would be charged the full $499 the next time I purchased lifetime on a new product. If I sold the HD before buying something now, then I'd pay $499 for lifetime.


I have a blank TiVo account, (has no TiVos in the account), I started to activate a TP (I have this TP as a tuner only for a guest bedroom, will get the four networks on my cable system) and got a price of $499, I clicked the *have prmo code* and entered the *PLSR* code and the price went down to $399, I did this about 2 hours ago.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lessd said:


> I have a blank TiVo account, (has no TiVos in the account), I started to activate a TP (I have this TP as a tuner only for a guest bedroom, will get the four networks on my cable system) and got a price of $499, I clicked the *have prmo code* and entered the *PLSR* code and the price went down to $399, I did this about 2 hours ago.


Like I said, YMMV.


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