# TiVo needs a new UI



## rjcrum (Jun 28, 2002)

I love my TiVos....all three of them. But I think the UI is beginning to get a little long in the tooth. Compared to the HP MediaSmart TVs, Vudu boxes, the AppleTV and other products, I think the TiVo UI is beginning to look very cluttered and confusing. In addition, I think it is getting increasingly non-intuitive to try to figure out where to go to do that "thing" that you want to do. 

I have loved the new features we have gotten over the past couple of years just as much as the other person. But "TiVo Central" just looks horrible now....and the "Find Programs and Downloads" (I think that's what it is now) is so cluttered and has so many options that it's just really hard to navigate.

TiVo....how about taking a brief step away from new features and give a serious look to a UI redesign? Why can't I have "Video", "Movies", "Music" and "Photos" right on the front page? Why can't things like "Messages & Settings" be hidden a little bit more, like a 'setup' icon in the lower right hand corner? Take a look at the most frequently done actions and make them falling-off-a-log simple.

Any other people have this feeling? Or is it just me?


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

rjcrum said:


> I love my TiVos....all three of them. But I think the UI is beginning to get a little long in the tooth. Compared to the HP MediaSmart TVs, Vudu boxes, the AppleTV and other products, I think the TiVo UI is beginning to look very cluttered and confusing. In addition, I think it is getting increasingly non-intuitive to try to figure out where to go to do that "thing" that you want to do.
> 
> I have loved the new features we have gotten over the past couple of years just as much as the other person. But "TiVo Central" just looks horrible now....and the "Find Programs and Downloads" (I think that's what it is now) is so cluttered and has so many options that it's just really hard to navigate.
> 
> ...


Agree. My guess is that they are working on a new UI to compete with Apple TV, etc.

No arguments from Dave Zatz who talks about a needed facelift on his blog...

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-05/tivo-to-add-disney-vod-via-cinemanow/


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

It may be just you.

TiVos continue to sell, including to existing customers who want to update/upgrade.

The interface has worked all along; users know what's where, and newbies learn quickly. Where's the problem? 

Usually it's cable/satellite DVRs that are accused of having unfriendly UIs.


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

I was starting to think the "Music, Photos, Products & More" section was getting cluttered. That should probably lead to another screen that is sorted better, folders labeled for what they contain...Music (from computers, rhapsody, etc) Yahoo!, Games, Photos, etc. So yea I guess I agree in part.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

gastrof said:


> TiVos continue to sell, including to existing customers who want to update/upgrade.


There are fewer active, deployed TiVo units (including DirecTV) this year than last... Cable and sat interfaces are improving. Rest on your laurels, you get lapped. We need fewer text lists, replaced with more graphical/iconic navigation, and a decent amount of consolidation - there's no need for two separate searches and a Wishlist, pull it all together. Stick the useless games in a folder. Jaman, Unbox, CinemaNow should have a unified front-end. Etc. While maybe not direct competitors, there are more modern, mature, interesting, interfaces (such as those Vudu and Vista MC references, VZ FiOS TV) out there and it's what people will expect from a premium product.

I assume TiVo knows (and I've been telling them for at least a year) and also assume they're actively researching it, if not actually ready to implement a major overhaul.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I couldn't agree more. I have a "top of the line" Series 3 TiVo on a beautiful 61" HDTV and a friend was over last night. Jumping around TiVo she said, "wow, check it out, a good old-fashioned original TiVo!"

She had no idea it was the "current" one. She was amazed at how crude and basic the whole menu system was... compared to her cable co's DVR.

And I agree with her. TiVo feels positively outdated now and could really use a smart, HD facelift.


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

I just wish I could choose what goes on the front page. like a MyTiVo page.

For example:

. Now Playing
. Rhapsody
. Amazon Unbox
. HD Photos

Pressing 1 or 2 or (Enter to get to the options page) would switch between MyTivo page and the Standard TiVo Page.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Some people are having an issue with what is on the menus. I have no issue with the way the menus work, although I do admit some menus (namely Find Progams) is too busy.

That is a far cry from the "look and feel", which I agree could use updated quite a bit, if it won't take away from the operation of the box.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/apples-and-oranges-hands+on-apple-tv-vs-tivo-series3-hdtop-247146.php



Gizomodo said:


> User Interface
> But when I looked at their attendant software and user interface, Apple sucks less. It has better-looking graphics and a pleasing subtlety that's missing on the TiVo user interface. For instance, when you push the Play button, Apple TV dissolves to the program, and then dissolves out the position indicator bar after a few seconds. Not so with the TiVo, which merely takes the shot from one source to the other, and pops out the superimposed titles. Advantage: Apple TV


Apple TV gives you a more modern feel when transitioning. Of course you pay a performance penalty with this kind of stuff.



Gizomodo said:


> Photo Display
> Displaying photos is a clear win for Apple TV. Where TiVo lets you team up with its TiVo desktop software and import pictures (and a beta version will soon let you import HDTV-rez pictures), Apple has this photo display thing down pat. TiVo's interface just feels downright clunky next to Apple's smooth and artful photo display routine. You can pick a music playlist as accompaniment, and then Apple TV will show you a beautiful Ken Burns effect with each of your photos in a slide show that's extensively configurable. Plus, your photos show up in a beautiful montage screensaver effect throughout the Apple TV interface. It's gorgeous, and slam-dunks TiVo. Advantage: Apple TV


I find the photo display on the TiVo almost unusable.



Gizomodo said:


> Playing Music
> Here's another win for Apple TV, where music is easier to get to with Apple's ergonomic sliding-style interface, with better graphics and easier classifications. Even when you don't have any album art, the Apple TV looks better than the bare-bones TiVo music interface, if you could even call it that. However, it's clumsy to get to large music libraries on either the TiVo or Apple TV, and add to that TiVo's disadvantage of not being able to play back any songs you bought on the iTunes music store. Advantage: Apple TV


Same thing on the music. The TiVo interface is just not very pretty.

XBOX 360 UI is not quite as good as the Apple TV but it still has a more modern look and feel over the TiVo.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

In some ways I agree- things area mess- 
why are diagnostics and troubleshooting on different levels for example?

but i think they are working on it- in my mind universal swivel search is a big part of the fix- but I guess they need to figure out how to make that also be local so it replaces the local search also. 

No programmer but i think people have said that the OCAP tivo software for comcast might help tivo get more modern. from the screen captures I've seen it certainly looks updated. And now know how to make a whole tivo ui with a java-like language and if i recall HMEapps like swivel search are also java? So you could put swivel search right in to a java based tivo ui without completely starting from scratch.

maybe it would be cool if they paid nintendo some scratch to by rights to pointing type remote like on the wii? a tivo remote that could also point would be cool. And the wii's remote is blue-tooth based so the basic functions like the remote has now could be rf instead of ir based.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

rjcrum said:


> I love my TiVos....all three of them. But I think the UI is beginning to get a little long in the tooth. Compared to the HP MediaSmart TVs, Vudu boxes, the AppleTV and other products, I think the TiVo UI is beginning to look very cluttered and confusing.


Cluttered? Not at all, unless you count the commercial banners. Confusing? Not in the least. I have never been even remotely confused by anything on the TiVo.



rjcrum said:


> In addition, I think it is getting increasingly non-intuitive to try to figure out where to go to do that "thing" that you want to do.


 With the one exception of the To Do List being under "Search for Programs...", I don't find anything on the TiVo to be non-intuitive. I was completely underwhelmed - even annoyed - by some of the changes they made when implementing Release 9, so if anything I would say they need to go back to the older version, not come up with some attempt to update the UI for no good reason. That said, although I dislike some of the changes they made, I am used to them, now.



rjcrum said:


> TiVo....how about taking a brief step away from new features and give a serious look to a UI redesign?


How about no way in hell? IF given a choice between futzing with the UI and delivering new features, I take the new features 100 times over. The UI is almost next to nothing in importance, unless it's a really bad one. The difference between "bad" and "good" is infinitely sharper than the difference between "very good" and "better". Features are nearly everything.



rjcrum said:


> Why can't I have "Video", "Movies", "Music" and "Photos" right on the front page?


You could, but how is that intrinsically much better than where they are now?



rjcrum said:


> Why can't things like "Messages & Settings" be hidden a little bit more, like a 'setup' icon in the lower right hand corner?


How is that superior?



rjcrum said:


> Take a look at the most frequently done actions and make them falling-off-a-log simple.


Other than the NPL, "Messages & Settings" is by far the menu I use most often. I can't think of anything on the TiVo which isn't falling-off-a-log simple.



rjcrum said:


> Any other people have this feeling? Or is it just me?


I can't speak for everyone else, but for me, not so much.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

davezatz said:


> There are fewer active, deployed TiVo units (including DirecTV) this year than last...


That's no big surprise. If you are suggesting it's because the competition has superior UIs, then I'll insist you back the statement up with hard data.



davezatz said:


> Cable and sat interfaces are improving.


The fact of which impacts my choice to stay with TiVo not in the very least.



davezatz said:


> Rest on your laurels, you get lapped.


True enough, but the UI is in large measure irrelevant. Obviously, it shouldn't be too difficult for the user to do something, but given a choice between a difficult to use feature and not having the feature, I'll take the difficulty. What's more, there is not a single feature on the TiVo which even remotely approaches being "difficult".



davezatz said:


> We need fewer text lists, replaced with more graphical/iconic navigation


I couldn't possibly disagree more vehemently. Indeed, if I were to suggest a change to the UI, it would be to provide *more* text in the menus, with smaller (possibly somewhat scalable) fonts and more lines on the screen. The same would especially be true of the program names in the NPL and the program descriptions in both the first and second level info screens.



davezatz said:


> and a decent amount of consolidation - there's no need for two separate searches and a Wishlist, pull it all together.


Although much less vehemently, I also strongly disagree. Indeed, if anything make the time and channel searches separate.



davezatz said:


> Stick the useless games in a folder.


OK, I'll buy off on that one.



davezatz said:


> Jaman, Unbox, CinemaNow should have a unified front-end.


I don't use any of these, and won't until they offer full 1080i HD video indistinguishable from broadcast 1080i video at far lower prices than they currently wish to charge for the lousy (even for 480i) content they have now. I also absolutely refuse to rent anything with a time limit, but these things admittedly have nothing to do with the UI.

That said, I agree with you here. Doing the same thing in two different areas should require the same steps and procedures.



davezatz said:


> While maybe not direct competitors, there are more modern, mature, interesting, interfaces


I could not possibly care less whether anything at all is more or less modern, especially not a UI. Over the years I have seen many, many products go from fabulous to [email protected]#$% up in an effort to be more modern.

The terms "modern" and "mature", while not mutually exclusive are nonetheless often incompatible. "Mature" is semi-synonymous with "old", and "Modern" usually connotes "new".

The last thing about which I care is if an interface is not interesting. On the other hand, interesting is not something I particularly want an interface to be. I don't necessarily want to put up with an interesting interface any more than I generally want to live in an interesting time.



davezatz said:


> such as those Vudu


I haven't seen Vudu, so I can't comment one way or the other.



davezatz said:


> and Vista MC references


You couldn't pay me enough to run Vista MC.



davezatz said:


> VZ FiOS TV


The thing that's great about FIOS is its features. If it were available here I would rush to it.



davezatz said:


> I assume TiVo knows (and I've been telling them for at least a year) and also assume they're actively researching it, if not actually ready to implement a major overhaul.


Since the form of the UI is not of great concern, I have no problem with changing it, but *ONLY* if the changes come with absolutely no penalty in performance, features, or cost (including hidden costs). Otherwise, it's not worth it. 'Not by a long shot.

The thing that gets me is that several of the suggestions here would make it worse, not better, in which case there is truly no point.


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## AZ_Tivo (Jan 17, 2005)

shady said:


> I just wish I could choose what goes on the front page. like a MyTiVo page.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


That would be awesome. But like I have said before, software (programming) does not seem to be Tivo's strength. I wish they hired couple of good progrmmers who could overhaul the UI.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

couple other examples of quirkiness (eg not falling off a log simple)-

as pointed out todo  (as in future) list is in the find programs area

compound that by putting the history (as in past) inside the todo list.

then compound that by being able to see FUTURE conflicts inside history

what is it- a list of things to come or a list of things that did come?

why is "configure cablecards" under "account & system information" instead of under "settings". Dont you usually configure settings? The word configure is kind of goofy in that instance- there's not even settings you can change on the cablecards- it's all for information (so it does make sens to be in the information menus but why call it configure?)

So i guess there's at least 3 issues-
1) the menus are not always logical- no programer here but dont think reorganizing and changing some wording is a major thing really that would take away from other places too much
2) make it look more modern- "look and feel" and i think the comcast experience is aiming that way
3) the 'streamline' or consolidation of some stuff - and I think they are trying to get there with the universal swivel search as an example.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

AZ_Tivo said:


> That would be awesome. But like I have said before, software (programming) does not seem to be Tivo's strength. I wish they hired couple of good progrmmers who could overhaul the UI.


thats in interesting comment.

not sure how to respond.

you own a tivo right? why? becasue you think it works better then other options? If so isn't it the tivo programmers that did that?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> as pointed out todo  (as in future) list is in the find programs area


You could call this rationalizing, but you are "finding" the programs that are going to be recorded in the future.

Now, having the recording history at the _top_ of the To Do list is *kind* of strange, but even that is sort of logical -- hidden for most users, but is in the To Do list because it's a "reverse" to do list.

my only big complaint (besides lack of FSI, etc., that we have wanted for years) is that the Find Programs menu is too cluttered, esp since I'm not on the network so never use most of the menu items. I essentially only ever use find by title and record by time or channel and submenus of those.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> and if i recall HMEapps like swivel search are also java?


HME is a protocol, really. An HME app could be written in any language. TiVo provides a Java SDK for it; I offer Python (see sig). Others have done C# and Perl.

Presumably TiVo's own apps are written in Java, yes.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

AZ_Tivo said:


> But like I have said before, software (programming) does not seem to be Tivo's strength. I wish they hired couple of good progrmmers who could overhaul the UI.


I would say that programming is TiVo's forte. The software is highly reliable--it does what its supposed to do, it does it correctly, and it does quite a few more things than the typical cable system IPG does.

In modern product development, very little of the actual look-and-feel is created by software engineers. Typically, there are people called "Human Factors Engineers" who do essentially no programming--they just produce documents which state, in minute detail, exactly what the product does, from the point of view of the user. What happens when you turn it on, and the structure and content of the menus and other displays. Various audible and graphical queues, etc, etc--all this is in the purview of Human Factors. Generally, they work with professional graphics designers, either in-house or externally, to create the visible elements.

The Software Engineers take those specifications--the "what" the product does--and determine "how" to make it do it. Without what they do, it's all just a bunch of words and diagrams on paper .


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> In some ways I agree- things area mess-
> why are diagnostics and troubleshooting on different levels for example?


I agree that puzzles me, but it most certainly does not qualify as a "mess". Certainly it is no more of a "mess" than putting the "Exit" routine under the "File" menu. (Admittedly that still annoys me.) I agree it could be a bit more methodically designed, but it is far, far from being confusing or difficult.



MichaelK said:


> but i think they are working on it- in my mind universal swivel search is a big part of the fix


I'm not sure what you mean. I'm all for more features, but while I never use swivel search - I don't find it useful at all - I can see how others woud find it a neat little bell. As bells and whistles go, however, I would rate Swivel Search way, way down near the bottom of the list in importance.



MichaelK said:


> but I guess they need to figure out how to make that also be local so it replaces the local search also.


Again, I'm not sure what you mean, but my knee jerk reaction is, "No". The mosty powerful and important searches are non-specific but filtered. For example, the search I employ much, much more than any other (about once every ten days) is Search by Title -> HD -> Movies -> Don't specify a subcategory -> 0. This brings up every HD movie scheduled to be broadcast within the next 2 weeks.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> HME is a protocol, really. An HME app could be written in any language. TiVo provides a Java SDK for it; I offer Python (see sig). Others have done C# and Perl.


Galleon is java based. Of course as you once pointed out to me, galleon is HMO, not HME.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> thats in interesting comment.
> 
> not sure how to respond.
> 
> you own a tivo right? why? becasue you think it works better then other options? If so isn't it the tivo programmers that did that?


Yeah, really. The hardware is certainly nothing phenomenally special. I mean, it's good for the price, but it's nothing no one else could put togther, or in large measure hasn't.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> thats in interesting comment.
> 
> not sure how to respond.
> 
> you own a tivo right? why? becasue you think it works better then other options? If so isn't it the tivo programmers that did that?


I think TiVo used to have good programmers, like 10 years ago. For the most part, their work was solid and that's the base we're still enjoying. But they left a few years ago.

So the code is now languishing and all TiVo has been doing is putting on little band-aid fixes.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> couple other examples of quirkiness (eg not falling off a log simple)


Quirky and complex are two very different things. So are understanding and memory. Sometimes it is a bit puzzling to try to understand why the developers at TiVo decided to name things a certain way or put certain things in a particular place, but none of them are difficult to find or to remember.



MichaelK said:


> as pointed out todo  (as in future) list is in the find programs area
> 
> compound that by putting the history (as in past) inside the todo list.
> 
> ...


<chuckle>

I certainly have no beef with TiVo re-arranging things a bit more methodically, but that's not what many of the people here are suggesting, unless I am much mistaken.



MichaelK said:


> 1) the menus are not always logical- no programer here but dont think reorganizing and changing some wording is a major thing really that would take away from other places too much


Although I no longer make a full time living of it, I've done some development in the past, and my current position requires a bit of simple coding from time to time, and no, this would be pretty trivial.



MichaelK said:


> 2) make it look more modern- "look and feel" and i think the comcast experience is aiming that way
> 3) the 'streamline' or consolidation of some stuff - and I think they are trying to get there with the universal swivel search as an example.


I think I already made my feelings clear on those matters.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

sbiller said:


> Apple TV gives you a more modern feel when transitioning.


I would have to rate that as one of the most useless wastes of coding time and CPU cycles I've ever seen. A modern feel is irrelevant. If anything I would prefer an antique feel. Perhaps something from the 1890s, Elizabethan England, or ancient Greece. It's not a matter for any great consideration, however.



sbiller said:


> Of course you pay a performance penalty with this kind of stuff.


It would be merely useless if there were no performance penalty. The fact there is makes it... I'm at a loss for words to describe what it makes it.



sbiller said:


> I find the photo display on the TiVo almost unusable.


That's not the TiVo. That's TiVo Desktop. It's a piece of garbage. I suggest you dump it. Use Galleon, pyTivo, or a combination of the two instead.

That said, I never use photos anyway. I do produce my own slideshows and write them to .mpg videos, and they play just fine on the TiVo.



sbiller said:


> Same thing on the music. The TiVo interface is just not very pretty.


I really like Galleon's music app. It beats TD out of the gate and all the way down the track. Its album art and lyrics display utilities are pretty cool, although honestly I usually start the music app and then turn off the TV when I want to listen to music.

Galleon's weather and traffic reports beat the pants off the embedded applications, too.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I think the existing text-based menus are very intuitive. I would not want to trade usability for glitz and glamour, as I feel Microsoft did with the Windows Media Center UI.

I think TiVo could give the existing interface a makeover with higher resolution menus and text, higher-resolution channel icons (instead of low-resolution GIFs), and a 16:9 color-coded guide with an inline picture window and three hours of program information. I also agree that certain menus like "Music, Photos, Products & More" are cluttered and the HME/Java UI is too slow.

I think TiVo is on the right track with the guide in the Comcast UI software, except it needs to be implemented in a 16:9 version. DirecTV is headed in that direction, and Dish Network already has a 16:9 guide. Dish recently announced a new and improved version of their 16:9 guide [for their next-generation box] which would incorporate more color and channel logos.


Click image for more Comcast TiVo screens taken by Steve Garfield.

Of course, if some improvements can't be made on the existing TivoHD and Series3 without a significant performance penalty, then TiVo should wait for next-generation units to implement those changes.


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

I don't like the grid guide.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

SnakeEyes said:


> I don't like the grid guide.


The primary benefit of the current TiVo-style guide is that it provides more program listings. The TiVo-style guide can show 8 program entries whereas the current 4:3 grid guide can only show 3; however, a 16:9 grid guide would show 6 program entries, eliminating much of that advantage.

TiVo could create a new version of the TiVo-style guide too. Unfortunately, the current TiVo style guide was engineered around 4:3 screens, which means you've got a lot of wasted real estate on a 16:9 screen.


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

I also like being able to see the next 8 programs of a channel in one window while also seeing 8 current channel shows. Something the grid guide cannot. Your numbers assume shows are only 30 minutes long and that a 16:9 menu would double. There isn't THAT much new real estate. TiVo's Live Guide is independent of show length. It shows the current and next 7 programs for each channel.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

SnakeEyes said:


> I also like being able to see the next 8 programs of a channel in one window while also seeing 8 current channel shows. Something the grid guide cannot. Your numbers assume shows are only 30 minutes


I'll give you that. Here's the current Dish Network guide:










As you can see, they can fit six half-hour shows on one screen.

That guide is fairly dull, but Dish has announced a graphically enhanced version for their next-generation DVR hardware.


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## KurtBJC (Jan 2, 2007)

Funny thing, this. I find the TiVo user interface superb, and timeless; I think that back in '99 the developers of the UI were light years ahead of anyone else, and I have never seen any DVR interface that compares well to it. I will be very disappointed if they "update" it in any way that disrupts its simple, intuitive, well-organized character. 

I have the misfortune to also have a DirecTV HR21 box. Now, there is a DVR that could use a user interface overhaul in a profound way; using it is like hitting oneself in the face with a hammer. 

Kurt


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

OK, so six half hours it is. Fair enough. However, the fact still remains that the TiVo Live Guide is time independent.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fofer said:


> TiVo feels positively outdated now and could really use a smart, HD facelift.


While I would like the menus to be corrected for 16:9, get HD etc, that should be way down on the list of priorities for TiVo IMO.

But they need to update the UI ASAP to accommodate the new services they are trying to push - Rhapsody, Unbox, home networking etc. As it is now, the still excellent-for-TV original UI is jury-rigged to the max to deal with these new delivery methods, and the result is a confusing mish-mash.

As others have mentioned, the whole "Find Programs" menu is unintuitive and really unpleasant to use. It needs to be as simple to go to Unbox or Rhapsody as it is to go to "Now Playing" if TiVo wants to compete.

Note that I'm not talking about "fade in/out" transitions and other such BS (I usually turn that crap off right away if possible). I am talking about keeping the basic UI intact, but giving it a serious structural overhaul. The suggestion above to make a customizable "MyTiVO screen" for example, like on an iPod, is a great example of this.

I hope they can get this taken care of, if they can't they will be in even more trouble.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

I think the TiVo remote could benefit from a selection wheel (like a mouse wheel) or something like the iPod nano touchpad. It sometimes takes way to long to scroll through a list of programs where a wheel with acceleration would be a really nice add-on. This would be another differentiator for TiVo over standard cable DVRs. The wheel could also be used to rapidly get to a precise location in a program similar to the way my non-linear editor (ULEAD VideoStudio) works for video editing.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

KurtBJC said:


> Funny thing, this. I find the TiVo user interface superb, and timeless; I think that back in '99 the developers of the UI were light years ahead of anyone else, and I have never seen any DVR interface that compares well to it. I will be very disappointed if they "update" it in any way that disrupts its simple, intuitive, well-organized character.


They could easily leave the majority of the UI very similar and still significantly improve the UI with:

1) better fade-ins/out like AppleTV. 
2) HD support (16:9) grid guide, additional info on the guide similar to Comcast UI upgrade
3) Revamped downloadable movie category with content aggregation from multiple providers, cover flow ability, movie ratings capabilities (thumbs up/down), ability to access movie reviews from imdb, yahoo, movie recommendations
4) Revamped photos category
5) Revamped music category
6) Revamped radio/podcast category


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I am also in favor of leaving the current UI alone. It is great, and I suspect many of the changes suggested I would consider to be degradations.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Galleon is java based. Of course as you once pointed out to me, galleon is HMO, not HME.


Galleon is an HM*E* app. JavaHMO, a prior project by the same developer, is an HMO app. The fact that both use Java as a programming language is irrelevent however, as they both run on a pc and communicate via documented protocols with the TiVo. As wmcbrine was saying, they could have been implemented in any number of other languages, as long as they communicate using one of the protocols TiVo supports: HMO & HME (and/or possibly the undocumented Creston remote and jabber protocols).


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I'm all for seeing the face of the UI being updated, but leave the function alone.
I've gotten used to where everything is now.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> I agree that puzzles me, but it most certainly does not qualify as a "mess". Certainly it is no more of a "mess" than putting the "Exit" routine under the "File" menu. (Admittedly that still annoys me.) I agree it could be a bit more methodically designed, but it is far, far from being confusing or difficult.
> 
> ....


tomatos , tomaatos.

disorganized, in need of better logic, whatever you want to call it there's some 'interesting' locations for things.



lrhorer said:


> ...
> I'm not sure what you mean. I'm all for more features, but while I never use swivel search - I don't find it useful at all - I can see how others woud find it a neat little bell. As bells and whistles go, however, I would rate Swivel Search way, way down near the bottom of the list in importance.
> ....


swiwel search combines the television guide data with unbox content. I assume it will be expended to contain the other 2 new download partners so there will be a single place to search for content. I dont see that as a bell and whistle. I dont want to have to search in 4 differnt places (1 tv listing and 3 downloads) to find something.



lrhorer said:


> ...
> Again, I'm not sure what you mean, but my knee jerk reaction is, "No". The mosty powerful and important searches are non-specific but filtered. For example, the search I employ much, much more than any other (about once every ten days) is Search by Title -> HD -> Movies -> Don't specify a subcategory -> 0. This brings up every HD movie scheduled to be broadcast within the next 2 weeks.


if I understand correctly the swivel search is only availible to broadband connected dvr's as it is an HME app that actually runs up on some tivo server. So you now have one search (the original) that runs on the box no matter if the unit is connected to broadband or not, and another search (universal swivel search) that comes up for broadband users only and creates a second search on those boxes.

I would guess the end game would to some how merge the 2 so that all users have the one single search that works no matter if the box is connected to the interent or not. (eg make a varient of universal swivel search work on the tivos even when not connected to broadband)

(actually thinking about it- I see your point that swivel search could use some filtering- but I guess the end game is to merge the best feautres of both of those- the filtering ability of the built in search with the getting all content of universal swivel- tell swivel you just want tv or just amazon or just hd- whatever)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

sbiller said:


> I think the TiVo remote could benefit from a selection wheel (like a mouse wheel) or something like the iPod nano touchpad. It sometimes takes way to long to scroll through a list of programs where a wheel with acceleration would be a really nice add-on. This would be another differentiator for TiVo over standard cable DVRs. The wheel could also be used to rapidly get to a precise location in a program similar to the way my non-linear editor (ULEAD VideoStudio) works for video editing.


I have suggested that in the forum before. A clickable scroll wheel placed where the "index finger" button is on the back of the Wii controller would be perfect.
The scrolling through the "Music" menu on the TiVo if you use TiVo Desktop is unbearably inconvenient if you have a lot of music... of course, that whole interface needs a severe overhaul anyway. Also, "T9 word" style predictive typing would be good for these things (I've suggested that before too ).


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I have suggested that in the forum before. A clickable scroll wheel placed where the "index finger" button is on the back of the Wii controller would be perfect.
> The scrolling through the "Music" menu on the TiVo if you use TiVo Desktop is unbearably inconvenient if you have a lot of music... of course, that whole interface needs a severe overhaul anyway. Also, "T9 word" style predictive typing would be good for these things (I've suggested that before too ).


scroll wheel is only really helpfull if tivo redid things so you could quickly scroll through lists. Since it pauses for a noticable time now between page loads I think that would be a major undertaking unfortunately


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

I've got mixed feelings on a scroll wheel. The Vudu one requires a certain amount of fine motor control, especially when it comes to rewind and fast forward functionality. I doubt my mom would enjoy it. On the other hand, it can be pretty speedy to navigate menus.

I'd prefer something like the Xbox Chatpad accessory to type in search terms, WPA keys, etc. I've only had the Wii a few days, but "typing" by pointing has been pretty efficient - moreso than I thought it would be. Again, I doubt my mom could handle or enjoy - so make it a toggle-able feature.

PS I agree completely that any visual overhaul shouldn't negatively impact performance and should enhance functionality. In fact, my major beef with some of the new area of the interface (HME: Rhapsody, Swivel Search) are slooow - some of it is pulling content off the network, which I can excuse - but the rendering is slow and some of that should be (is?) cached locally.


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## lundberry (Sep 10, 2007)

A few things. One they are constantly working to get things better organized and I think you might see them reorganizing various different aspect of the menu's over the next year very much akin to what they did with the downloads and programs menu when they put music choice, unbox, and the OTM content. I think your going to see more of this folder like organziation happening with Tivo. One thing I have always appreciated about tivo was the fact that they do a good product and they don't try to fix what isn't broken. They could easily make stuff more transparent or have it float over programming or do something just off the wall with their menu's but they don't. I like that if you learn how to work a tivo go into a coma for five years you don't come out and have to completely relearn it. KISS. That means pretty up the background a little streamline things that your adding on so that they make logical sense where they are and STOP. At least stop until you add more stuff then continue making sure that your menu's make sense. We enjoy our tivo's because they are nice to use. And they stay the same. I think that Tivo needs to get more of their boxes out there not a different UI. They don't need to get a different UI to get more boxes out there they need to get the fact that they are the Apple of the DVR world out there. Why settle for your crappy cable dvr when you can get the quality Tivo HD.


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## JohnnyO (Nov 3, 2002)

Nothing like a little User Interface discussion to liven up the forum!

I like the "look and feel" of the TiVo UI. The basic movement of the UI is very easy for non-technical folks to understand.

I do think that the menus need some restructuring. I've recently moved from a DirecTV TiVo DVR to a TiVoHD DVR, and while I really love the additional features, the navigation for some of the on-line content is not very intuitive. Hopefully the folks at TiVo can "fine tune" parts of the menu structure and layout without alienating the folks who understand how to operate the current systems.

John


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## benh57 (Nov 15, 2007)

KurtBJC said:


> Funny thing, this. I find the TiVo user interface superb, and timeless; I think that back in '99 the developers of the UI were light years ahead of anyone else, and I have never seen any DVR interface that compares well to it.


You must not have seen too many DVR interfaces.

It's funny to see the old guard defending what they love, in spite of the facts.
We all love our tivos. That doesn't mean they are perfect and should be left AS IS forever. I've used many a DVR, and Tivo has some serious flaws.

Especially funny are the people who say 'UI is next to nothing in importance'. LOL. With quality DVRs finally starting to come now from cable companies, UI is *everything*. Reasons for the average joe to go tivo over cable co are becoming less. Tivo needs to stand out.

As a Software Engineer, I know that UI is everything. Read some books on Software UI design. It's a fascinating field.

Often, with an interface you don't even realize how clunky something is and how much better something can be until you try it.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean that they're not doing so based on the facts.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> I think TiVo could give the existing interface a makeover with higher resolution menus and text, higher-resolution channel icons (instead of low-resolution GIFs), and a 16:9 color-coded guide with an inline picture window and three hours of program information. I also agree that certain menus like "Music, Photos, Products & More" are cluttered and the HME/Java UI is too slow.
> 
> I think TiVo is on the right track with the guide in the Comcast UI software, except it needs to be implemented in a 16:9 version.


TiVo has had too much on its plate to get the series 3 out the door and do the Comcast partnership to do any serious UI makeover on its legacy core. I do agree that the menus could have been far better arranged. A good starting point would be cleaning up the Music, Photos and More with some folders/sub menus.

However;
The series 4 will not be just another branch of the legacy code base though as TiVo enters into the world of supporting tru2way in as seamless a way as possible. I would expect the Comcast/TiVo interface to be their starting point on the series 4.

Given that, I would not expect to see much change on the current TiVo interface.

and yes - for the love of all that enter text - could they please support some USB keyboards. There are kick butt wireless USB keyboards that would take no special effort on TiVo's part other than the project to incorporate the support and logic into the text entering places in the UI.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I would prefer that, instead of supporting USB keyboards, that they support something like that telnet command tool that folks have been working on the last few weeks. That's really neat. Of course, it'll mostly benefit folks with laptops.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> I would prefer that, instead of supporting USB keyboards, that they support something like that telnet command tool that folks have been working on the last few weeks. That's really neat. Of course, it'll mostly benefit folks with laptops.


an interesting way to work remotes though - get the remote on your WiFi and control anything else on the network. Would seem to fit right into the Whole Home initiative TiVo execs discussed briefly recently.

And sure a nifty keyboard on the remote or a standalone keyboard that could hit the WiFi and control TiVos via telnet would suit my needs even better than "so last year's tech" USB.


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## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

The problem with Tivo's UI is common with the websites I have worked on for corporations. They begin organized and everything is where it makes sense. Then over time a piece is added here, and then something else there, and next thing you know the once clean menu system is now a cluttered mess. There always comes a point where things are no longer organized and navigation becomes confusing, and that is when an upgrade is in order. I think we have hit that point with Tivo, and it is time update the UI and menu system.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Yes, they could make that Telnet "backdoor" a bit more powerful, and add it to all the network enabled TiVos.

For the general public though, adding support for wired or wireless USB keyboards make more sense.


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## KurtBJC (Jan 2, 2007)

benh57 said:


> You must not have seen too many DVR interfaces.


Well, there's an interesting assumption. And an incorrect one, to boot. Take, for example, the HR21 interface on the DirecTV box. Every time I have to use that thing, I've got to ask myself, "gee, would it be more pleasant to use this DVR, or to stab myself in the eye with a fork?" It's a close call.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

I feel tivo could defiantly benefit from a new redesigned UI and feel it is very important for them to develop one. 

At the same time I also feel they shouldn't get rid of the old one either. 

In my opinion it would be best if TiVo had two UI's. A new and improved redesign, and the current one.

That way for those who like the classic feel, the classic menu would still be there and could can be reverted back to via the messages and settings area with a new section for UI. I don't know how complicated this would be, but I'm sure it can be done. I have seen dvr software before where the interface is interchangeable on the fly to a totally different design. The old comcast box my dad used to had years ago could pick between 2 UI's, then it had like 12 shades of colors tones you can pick for the UI. Now, we don't need the ability for multiple shades of the UI, but the option to change between the new and the classic would definitely be a plus=)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jkalnin said:


> The problem with Tivo's UI is common with the websites I have worked on for corporations. They begin organized and everything is where it makes sense. Then over time a piece is added here, and then something else there, and next thing you know the once clean menu system is now a cluttered mess. There always comes a point where things are no longer organized and navigation becomes confusing, and that is when an upgrade is in order. I think we have hit that point with Tivo, and it is time update the UI and menu system.


Well put, exactly what I think too.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

mikeyts said:


> ...
> In modern product development, very little of the actual look-and-feel is created by software engineers. Typically, there are people called "Human Factors Engineers" who do essentially no programming--they just produce documents which state, in minute detail, exactly what the product does, from the point of view of the user. What happens when you turn it on, and the structure and content of the menus and other displays. Various audible and graphical queues, etc, etc--all this is in the purview of Human Factors. Generally, they work with professional graphics designers, either in-house or externally, to create the visible elements.
> 
> The Software Engineers take those specifications--the "what" the product does--and determine "how" to make it do it. Without what they do, it's all just a bunch of words and diagrams on paper .


This is my brother-in-law's field. Too many companies don't understand how important the interface is to usability of a software. His specialty is to work with companies that write dedicated softwares for different companies and help them design the interface so that the end users can actually use the software. Most of the calls that CSR's get for software support is because the users can't figure out what things are and where they are. Or they know the software is supposed to do a certain thing, but they can't find the function. Most of the complaints I'm hearing about Office 2007 is that people can't find the commands anymore. User interface is crucial to the acceptance and functionality of a software.

I would love to see a 'My Tivo' front page type thing. Also, I don't understand why the To Do list is at the bottom of the list. That's probably the most used item on that screen so put it at the top. As for the guide, I hate the grid guide. I absolutely love that I can see what's on for the rest of the night (or day) on a specific channel and that I can see what's on right now on several channels. The only thing I would change on that screen is that it should show if I have something set up to record. The other thing I would change is the ability to have multiple favorites lists like Dish network has. That way multiple people in the house could have their own favorites list.

One of the things I love about Tivo is that the interface is so easy to use and gives you so much information at once. I get so tired of changing screens, changing screens, changing screens. They've added so many features that it needs some better reorganizing, but I don't want to see too many layers added. Slick doesn't impress me. Easy to find your way around and get to what you want - that impresses me. That should come first over making the interface fancy looking.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

LoREvanescence said:


> In my opinion it would be best if TiVo had two UI's. A new and improved redesign, and the current one.
> 
> That way for those who like the classic feel, the classic menu would still be there and could can be reverted back


TiVo would definitely have to deal with some backlash if they changed up the menus too much. At the same time they have a LOT of code tied around those menus and trying to maintain two sets of menus would make maintenance/new work costs SKYROCKET.

For these reasons as well I simply do not foresee any large menu changes on current models.

*maybe if people posted in this thread the specific things about menus they find wieldy/cumbersome it could help TiVo pinpoint some specific improvements that would not take a lot of resources to do.*


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

jkalnin said:


> The problem with Tivo's UI is common with the websites I have worked on for corporations. They begin organized and everything is where it makes sense. Then over time a piece is added here, and then something else there, and next thing you know the once clean menu system is now a cluttered mess. There always comes a point where things are no longer organized and navigation becomes confusing, and that is when an upgrade is in order. I think we have hit that point with Tivo, and it is time update the UI and menu system.


I agree completely. Even the way the TiVo Central menu draws... you can see how extra items pop on after the first batch. All the add-ons FEEL like add-ons, stuck together with tape and glue.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> *maybe if people posted in this thread the specific things about menus they find wieldy/cumbersome it could help TiVo pinpoint some specific improvements that would not take a lot of resources to do.*


I don't like how the new stuff (swivel search, music, etc.) looks so different fro m the original main menus. Different font, similar-but-different layout, etc.

I'm okay with the menu tree but I'd like to see the whole UI consistent and formatted nicely for a 16:9 HD TV. I have a Series 3 after all...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Fofer said:


> I agree completely. Even the way the TiVo Central menu draws... you can see how extra items pop on after the first batch.


That is the *new* standard for high-performing user-interfaces. Nothing has replaced that, and short of the invention of time-travel, it is likely that asynchronous population of user-interfaces will remain the state-of-the-art standard for years to come.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

classicsat said:


> For the general public though, adding support for wired or wireless USB keyboards make more sense.


I'd be happy with a Bluetooth keyboard too, even it meant buying an "approved" USB->Bluetooth dongle from TiVo.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

Fofer said:


> I'm okay with the menu tree but I'd like to see the whole UI consistent and formatted nicely for a 16:9 HD TV. I have a Series 3 after all...


I would like to see this as well along with slight improvements to the graphics. I would also like to see the menus that are cluttered reorganized.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

bicker said:


> That is the *new* standard for high-performing user-interfaces. Nothing has replaced that, and short of the invention of time-travel, it is likely that asynchronous population of user-interfaces will remain the state-of-the-art standard for years to come.




I use plenty of brand new set-top boxes and all sorts of "high performing UIs" and I rarely, if ever, interact with one that feels as tacked-on, cobbled together and sluggish as the Series 3 TiVo. You can FEEL it's age.

I still love it, because it's easy to use and reliable. But it's lacking the shine and finish that a top-tier device should have in 2008, that's all.


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## wblynch (Aug 13, 2003)

We stayed with Tivo rather than switch to DirecTV's HR21, because my technology challenged wife understands Tivo.

While we sit here in the internet's and talk about UI there are millions of people that just want to work their Tivo and record and watch TV.

The TivoHD is already getting too complicated for Wifey. Too much garbage on the screen and menus and they renamed things. She gets angry (and I want to avoid the old remote through the plasma trick)

I think they could easily offer a Classic/Advanced selection for the menu tree.


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## riddick21 (Dec 12, 2006)

No they don't need a new UI. Maybe they should do an apple tv type thing for music photos and unbox downloads but I think the NPL is a great implementation. They changed the look of their website and I think it looks horrible, I hope they don't do the same for the UI. If it aint broke don't fix it.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

The NPL is *not* great, especially with large storage and many pages of recordings. Especially when I have copied lots of content from my computer (via TiVo GoBack.)

I want to be able to create my own folders and group things together the way I see fit (like, say, Movies.) 

"TV, my way," right?

This is 2008, and that's not too much to ask.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

With the Series 3/THD TiVos they should have assumed, like Apple did with AppleTV, that people would use high-resolution 16:9 TVs and designed the menus accordingly.


TiVo Central for example could easily have had separate Swivel Search, Download and Music items on them, instead of burying those in submenus.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Do we have any reason to believe that TiVo designed the menus from scratch for the TiVo Series 3/TiVo HD? I tend to doubt it; they probably just used their existing code, while AppleTV's user-interface was designed and implement *MUCH* more recently. It makes a whole load of sense that the target display for the design of the two interfaces would be *different*.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bicker said:


> Do we have any reason to believe that TiVo designed the menus from scratch for the TiVo Series 3/TiVo HD?


I don't think anyone believes that. That's the whole problem.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

No, not a "problem" at all.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

What is this, some sort of Jedi mind trick you're trying to pull?

LOL


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## etz (Sep 8, 2006)

nirisahn said:


> I don't understand why the To Do list is at the bottom of the list. That's probably the most used item on that screen so put it at the top.


I've got no answer to that, but I'll add that I never use that menu item anyway so I didn't even realize that it's a problem. To get to the NP list, I just press TiVo-TiVo and I'm there. Why use the menus? Same with TiVo-2 for ToDo list, TiVo-3 for WishLists, and the others.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

etz said:


> I've got no answer to that, but I'll add that I never use that menu item anyway so I didn't even realize that it's a problem. To get to the NP list, I just press TiVo-TiVo and I'm there. Why use the menus? Same with TiVo-2 for ToDo list, TiVo-3 for WishLists, and the others.


I use menus because I can never remember the shortcuts.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

nirisahn said:


> I use menus because I can never remember the shortcuts.


I only know 2 short cuts: [TiVo],[TiVo] to get me to NPL and
[TiVo],[2] to go to the ToDo list.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

nirisahn said:


> I use menus because I can never remember the shortcuts.


Same here. About all I know is the Tivo Tivo. I can't remember the numbers and often if I try them I end up in the show cases or suggestions and not where I want to be, lol


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## dylanemcgregor (Jan 31, 2003)

vman41 said:


> I only know 2 short cuts: [TiVo],[TiVo] to get me to NPL and
> [TiVo],[2] to go to the ToDo list.


Don't forget Tivo, 0 to get to the opening animation. Hard to find that one in the menus.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

if you have a universal remote- you dont even need tivo,tivo- you can just progam a NPL button.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> if you have a universal remote- you dont even need tivo,tivo- you can just progam a NPL button.


Or if you have a direct tivo remote laying around like I do, you can just hit list on it to go to the NPL as well.


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## TerpBE (Jan 23, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> I think TiVo is on the right track with the guide in the Comcast UI software, except it needs to be implemented in a 16:9 version. DirecTV is headed in that direction, and Dish Network already has a 16:9 guide. Dish recently announced a new and improved version of their 16:9 guide [for their next-generation box] which would incorporate more color and channel logos.
> 
> 
> Click image for more Comcast TiVo screens taken by Steve Garfield.


I really like that they added the ability to see what shows are scheduled to be recorded. I'd like to look at the prime time grid layout each day and see at a glance which shows will and won't be recorded.

Now when can we finally get this in the S3?


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

TerpBE said:


> I really like that they added the ability to see what shows are scheduled to be recorded. I'd like to look at the prime time grid layout each day and see at a glance which shows will and won't be recorded.
> 
> Now when can we finally get this in the S3?


What would be even better, IMO, is to have a grid that shows only shows scheduled to record, and shows that can't record due to a conflict. That would make it very easy to make sure that you get the shows that are important to you - especially during the rare times that a show airs on a different night than usual, or if a show changes schedule at some point during the season.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Crrink said:


> What would be even better, IMO, is to have a grid that shows only shows scheduled to record, and shows that can't record due to a conflict. That would make it very easy to make sure that you get the shows that are important to you - especially during the rare times that a show airs on a different night than usual, or if a show changes schedule at some point during the season.


TiVo's software for Comcast ahas a new To Do List.


Click image for more Comcast TiVo screens taken by Steve Garfield.

Though I do agree that it would be nice if TiVo also had an icon in the guide for conflicts, such as a stop sign or yellow exclamation mark. Green checkmarks could be used for shows that will record.


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## Joey303 (May 1, 2001)

People who think the TiVo UI is "great" and doesn't need to be changed must still be typing on a Wang.


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## Robert2413 (Feb 1, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> Again, I'm not sure what you mean, but my knee jerk reaction is, "No". The mosty powerful and important searches are non-specific but filtered. For example, the search I employ much, much more than any other (about once every ten days) is Search by Title -> HD -> Movies -> Don't specify a subcategory -> 0. This brings up every HD movie scheduled to be broadcast within the next 2 weeks.


That is what I do too. And what I *really* want is more filtering criteria:

1) Sort by quality rating (put four-star movies at top, etc.)

2) Sort by quality of presentation (i.e., but HBO and other premium channels that don't interrupt and edit movies on top; put TNT and its ilk on the bottom 

Plus I would like to be able to see the movie descriptions pop up as I move down the sorted list. This is possible in guide view, so I don't know why they don't do it for search results too.

Also...it is absurd that TiVo does not queue remote control button pushes.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Fofer said:


> The NPL is *not* great, especially with large storage and many pages of recordings. Especially when I have copied lots of content from my computer (via TiVo GoBack.)


Use Galleon or pyTiVo.



Fofer said:


> I want to be able to create my own folders and group things together the way I see fit (like, say, Movies.)


Properly speaking, that is not really a UI issue. It is a feature. I agree I would like TiVo to fix their folder handling, but Galleon and pyTiVo handle off-line content and folders well enough.



Fofer said:


> "TV, my way," right?
> 
> This is 2008, and that's not too much to ask.


When it comes to additional features, I'm hard pressed to argue the point, but the statement for the most part doesn't speak to the UI.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Robert2413 said:


> Also...it is absurd that TiVo does not queue remote control button pushes.


Now that is a UI issue, and on this point I agree. It's one thing I would like to see fixed in the UI. Note the Tivo does do so for page up/down clicks in the main body of the NPL, butif one drops into an MRV / TTCB folder, it no longer does so. If one hits the page button a moment too fast in one of the MRV / TTCB folders, one gets "bonged".


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Joey303 said:


> People who think the TiVo UI is "great" and doesn't need to be changed must still be typing on a Wang.


What I do with my Wang is none of your business.

I take it, then you produced the sentence quoted above by pointing your mouse at 22 different icons in a pallette of a couple of thousand English word icons?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

riddick21 said:


> If it aint broke don't fix it.


:up: +1

Amen.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Fofer said:


> I use plenty of brand new set-top boxes and all sorts of "high performing UIs" and I rarely, if ever, interact with one that feels as tacked-on


You've clearly never used the SA 8300HD with Navigator software. The TiVo is also far from the top of the list when it comes to klunky, jerky, indecipherable software in general, even if we limit the field to software developed well after the instroduction of the TiVo (which includes Navigator, BTW). It's also apples and oranges to talk about developing STB software in comparison to developing DVR software.



Fofer said:


> cobbled together


Depending on the implementation, being cobbled together is not necessarily a bad thing.



Fofer said:


> and sluggish as the Series 3 TiVo.


So you want it make it even more sluggish by implementing nonsense like fading menus and icons?



Fofer said:


> You can FEEL it's age.


Which is more often than not a good thing. While it's not true that "new" = "junk", much or even most of what is new is junk, while most of what is old is valuable, because only that which is valuable hangs around long enough to become old. The junk usually gets discarded quickly. Certainly absolutely nothing is good merely because it is new. The Tivo qualifies on all counts.



Fofer said:


> I still love it, because it's easy to use and reliable.


Which, when added to the features, is all that is important.



Fofer said:


> But it's lacking the shine and finish


Shine and finish are largely irelevant. The TiVo is a tool, and almost none of my better tools are shiny. Their finish is worn, cracked, and flaking. They get used, not looked at. 'The same with the TiVo.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

nirisahn said:


> I use menus because I can never remember the shortcuts.


I use the menus because otherwise I have to look at the remote, which presents several problems.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> Use Galleon or pyTiVo.


I don't want to. These are basic features and UI improvements that TiVo should have built in, without any need for 3rd party software running on a networked PC.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

TerpBE said:


> Now when can we finally get this in the S3?


Never would be soon enough for me. Of course you weren't the one espousing "a new look and feel", but how does integrating a utility developed more than 50 years ago whose useability was confined by limitatons inherent in a device developed more than 500 years ago constitue something "new and improved"?

The grid-based TV guide was developed in the 1950s to allow it to be distributed using a movable type printing press, invented in the 15th century.

Others in the thread are espousing the use of more icons. Icons were developed more trhan 6000 years ago. Their use was displaced by the invention of an alphabet some 3000 years ago or so.

50 years
500 years
5000 years

What's next, a UI which requires us to rub two sticks together to make fire?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Fofer said:


> I don't want to. These are basic features and UI improvements that TiVo should have built in, without any need for 3rd party software running on a networked PC.


That's pretty rich. The message to which I replied said:



Fofer said:


> Especially when I have copied lots of content from my computer (via TiVo GoBack.)


TiVo GoBack is specifically a 3rd party application (even if TiVo itself does provide one version of it). So you want a feature which is made meaningful by the presence of a 3rd party software running on a networked PC to not require 3rd party software running on a networked PC? You don't mind running a thoroughly lousy piece of crap 3rd party software on a networked PC, but you don't want to run any decent 3rd party software in its place?

I don't mean to give offense, but your post is just whining.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wblynch said:


> We stayed with Tivo rather than switch to DirecTV's HR21, because my technology challenged wife understands Tivo.


There's that, too. There are plenty of people out there who simply do not want their lives perterbed by change, even or perhaps most especially in small matters. I am usually not one of those people, becauase I love trying out new things and learning new ways to do things. I only accept them willingly, however, if they are fundamentally better. Nonetheless, as an engineer who must absorb and implement new software and new methods and procedures on a daily basis, I can understand how the average user may sometimes feel overwhelmed by change, and especially technological change when technology is not their forte.



wblynch said:


> While we sit here in the internet's and talk about UI there are millions of people that just want to work their Tivo and record and watch TV.


Point well taken. Indeed, what I want most is for the TiVo to record the shows I want without my using any UI. While this ideal like absolute zero is unattainable, a well designed system like the TiVo can get me a long way towards that ideal.



wblynch said:


> and they renamed things.


That definitely annoyed me. Renamng something for no good reason is foolish. Renaming it to fall closer to other manufcturer's little cutsy names is just stupid.



wblynch said:


> I think they could easily offer a Classic/Advanced selection for the menu tree.


I some cases this could be practical and not impact performance, in which case it would be OK. Generally speaking, however I would much prefer they kept their code as simple, streamlined, and compact as possible.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

No offense lrhorer, but I'm happy you're not in a position to make UI decisions at TiVo.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> With the Series 3/THD TiVos they should have assumed, like Apple did with AppleTV, that people would use high-resolution 16:9 TVs and designed the menus accordingly.


Oh, they should, huh? That's rather dismissive of those on a budget, if you ask me. In any case, I'm quite glad they didn't. I've got two S3s and a TiVo HD. I also have an Optoma HD82 projector with a 10' screen, a Mitsubishi 62" DLP TV, and a 25 year old NEC standard NTSC monitor. The TiVo HD feeds the NTSC monitor, and I have no intention of ever replacing it unless it dies. If it does, I'll find the least expensive monitor or TV which will fit into its cabinet. It seems less than likely it would be a 16:9, at least not any time soon. Eventually manufacturers might stop producing 4:3 TVs altogether, of course, some point in time after which supporting 4:3 would become mostly moot.



MickeS said:


> TiVo Central for example could easily have had separate Swivel Search, Download and Music items on them, instead of burying those in submenus.


In which case for me those items would represent nothing but wasted space. Everyone has their own specific wants and desires. Indeed, if I were to have my "druthers", the UI in the livingroom would be significantly different than the UI in the theater and neither of them would be idential to the one in the guest room. My useage of all three TiVos is quite, quite different.

Except when I have company, the NPL on the THD in the guest room is very rarely used, but the Search By Title and Wishlist are perused at least once every two weeks. Otherwise, it does nothing but record shows and automatically transfer them to the network video server. Music, weather, games, record by time / channel, swivel search, and all the rest are dead weight.

The S3 in the theater doesn't usually record anything off its RF inputs, and the searches are virtually never used there. Once in a while it is used for music, but otherwise it is almost exclusively used to watch programs off the server or in some cases ones already on its hard drive (copy protected so they can't be moved to the server).

The S3 in the livingroom gets the most ecclectic use. Weather, traffic, music, searches of various types, internet downloads, You name it. Even the silly little games are sometimes played there. Almost everything but Swivel Search and Live TV gets a workout. I essentially never watch Live TV - ever, and I don't use Swivel Search. I can understand the appeal of Swivel Search for some poeple, but I don't find it useful for myself.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> No offense lrhorer, but I'm happy you're not in a position to make UI decisions at TiVo.


'None taken. We are, after all doing nothing more than expressing our preferences, which are sort of one step down from opinions.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bicker said:


> I am also in favor of leaving the current UI alone. It is great, and I suspect many of the changes suggested I would consider to be degradations.


That's what worries me the most. If the changes are neutral or positive and do not impact performance, then OK, but it's hard to know until after the changes are implemented, and then it's probably too late.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> I think the existing text-based menus are very intuitive. I would not want to trade usability for glitz and glamour, as I feel Microsoft did with the Windows Media Center UI.


Exactly! And for that matter, almost every subsequent "upgrade" since DOS 5. As we used to quip, the Microsoft motto is, "If you can't make it work good, make it look good."



bkdtv said:


> I think TiVo could give the existing interface a makeover with higher resolution menus and text


Make that OPTIONAL higher resolution and text. I see no reason to impact those of us with smaller displays or poorer eyesight. I'm extremely happy not to be burdened with either one, but make them scalable, at least partly, for those who are, or even just prefer larger fonts.



bkdtv said:


> higher-resolution channel icons (instead of low-resolution GIFs)


Not. If anything, drop the icons, but definitely don't waste even more resources on them. The channel icons are already pretty useless, but with more than 1000 channels soon to become the norm, icons are truly ludicrous. For that matter, I couldn't care less what channel anything is or was on in the first place. It's almost completely irrelevant.



bkdtv said:


> the HME/Java UI is too slow.


Definitely. The 9.3 release is better, and considerably so, but I believe there is great room for improvement. After all, the information is pretty much just text. Just transferring it over a 100M link takes bupkus for time or processing power. It's spending too much time thinking about something. What, I don't know.



bkdtv said:


> DirecTV is headed in that direction, and Dish Network already has a 16:9 guide.


Sheep and cattle follow each other too, you know.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> I'll give you that. Here's the current Dish Network guide:


I just don't understand it. It truly completely baffles me why anyone would consider using such a thing. Right now most CATV lineups consist of more than 100 channels. Soon, the average will be close to or well in excess of 1000.

The guide shown here covers 3 hours on 7 channels. To cover 2 weeks of shows in 700 channels would require pouring over some 11,000 plus screens. It's absurd! Whether broken up into viewing one day at a time or gulping down all 11,000 screens in one sitting, it still represents hours worth of time. What's more, better than 99.99% of what is on most of the screens represents a logical duplication of some sort.



bkdtv said:


> That guide is fairly dull, but Dish has announced a graphically enhanced version for their next-generation DVR hardware.


Which won't cut down the number of screens one tiny bit. Filtered searches do, by a vast amount. Cleverly crafted ones can drop the amount of detritus by almost another order of magnitude.

Oh, well, enough. I already vented in excess on this topic in another thread.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> TiVo GoBack is specifically a 3rd party application (even if TiVo itself does provide one version of it). So you want a feature which is made meaningful by the presence of a 3rd party software running on a networked PC to not require 3rd party software running on a networked PC? You don't mind running a thoroughly lousy piece of crap 3rd party software on a networked PC, but you don't want to run any decent 3rd party software in its place?
> 
> I don't mean to give offense, but your post is just whining.




TiVo GoBack works with software provided by TiVo on my Mac. It's not a core feature that I expect from TiVo. It's not something I use very often, but when I do, it works fine. There's absolutely no comparison to Galleon and pyTiVo. They are hack add-ons, and not in any way, shape or form, user-friendly and ready for mass consumer consumption. Please. I've used both. To suggest those as a "replacement" for TiVo's need to update their interface... is completely unrealistic.

I don't mean to give offense, but you strike me as a person who's lost touch with reality. You're not even making any sense. TiVo is in trouble and their UI is but one indicator. Rest assured, other players will eclipse TiVo very soon if TiVo doesn't get their act together and recognize that customers will be attracted to sexier solutions. It's that simple.



MickeS said:


> No offense lrhorer, but I'm happy you're not in a position to make UI decisions at TiVo.


+1


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

It all depends on where you're coming from. lrhorer apparently has no interest in using any of the new features that TiVo is hoping will generate revenue, like music and video downloads, and in that case the old text-based 8-line low-res interface might work. It will still look old compared to the competition, but it will probably work nicely.

But if TiVo wants to keep up the competition when it comes to Internet-based content, it will not cut it. They've cobbled together some poorly integrated solutions, but it's not nearly as slick as the more consumer-friendly interfaces from the competitors.

For example, movie downloads HAVE to have "cover images". Some might think it's unnecessary (I'm sure lrhorer does), but it's a fact. Same with music.

TiVo is in a similar position that Palm is on the cell phone side. Palm's interface is long in the tooth, but it works. But they're not really getting any new customers excited by it, most probably buy the product DESPITE the interface, not BECAUSE of it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> It all depends on where you're coming from. lrhorer apparently has no interest in using any of the new features that TiVo is hoping will generate revenue, like music and video downloads


Music downloads definitely not. The video server does a much better job of that and is far faster and more flexible. It also makes the music available to very computing device in the house, including the TiVos. Video downloads I'll say, "Provisionally. no". Until the quality of the content and its cost - neither of which has anything to do with TiVo - improve dramarically, I'm totally uninterested. I record a couple of dozen very high quality HD movies a month for $20 and store them on my video server for viewing whenever I like, plus the TiVos themselves store - however briefly - another 200 or so movies, specials, documentaries, and series episodes, most of them HD, for the price I am already paying for cable service. I truly fail to see why the very same content in a much lower quality for a much higher price would be of interest, especially when I could never even come close to watching what I already get in several lifetimes. Even in the event the prices come down and the quality goes up to the point where the service would be of interest to me, I would probably rather download the content to the video server than one or more of the TiVos.



MickeS said:


> and in that case the old text-based 8-line low-res interface might work.


Oh, not even. Text based? You had better believe it. Eight lines? Not nearly enough? Low res? I would definitely prefer not, although as I said, let's not leave those who require it out in the cold. Look, maybe I'm not getting my point across. (If I am and you still disagree, well that's fine.) See the next message



MickeS said:


> It will still look old compared to the competition, but it will probably work nicely.


How it looks is not relevant. How it works is.



MickeS said:


> For example, movie downloads HAVE to have "cover images". Some might think it's unnecessary (I'm sure lrhorer does), but it's a fact.


How is it a "fact"? Even when dealing with a few dozen videos, cover images do nothing but get in the way. When dealing with hundreds, thousands, or even tens of thousands, they are just ridiculous. Even when dealing with one, they add nothing.

The major problem right now with the TiVo's display is that it renders far, far too few lines of content. It should show 100 or so movies at once, at the very least.



MickeS said:


> Same with music.


Like most people (especially those of us with plasma or projection TVs), I turn off the TV when listening to music. A close friend of mine is adamant about not having to turn on the TV in order to start listening to music, which is why he refuses to consider using the TiVo to play music. I don't mind turning it on to start the process, however, but after that the TV gets shut off. How is album art relevant or other cover images relevant when the video is shut off? (Note: as I mentioned before, Galleon's album art utility is interesting, as is their lyrics utility, but I rarely ever use either.)


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

The screen captures below are more like what I would like to see on the TiVo, at least in terms of the number of characters and the info contained in the list, perhaps ignoring the icons. I'm satisfied with the UI, but I can easily and all but instantly instantly get these (the search did take six seconds) displays from my TiVos on my PC. I'd like to have something more like it on the TiVos themselves.

The NPL:









The To Do List:









A Search Result (Law and Order):


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

LOL!

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty comfortable ignoring any of lrhorer's "insight" on appropriate set-top box user interface. I'm all for more data, but c'mon now.

Lemme guess... lrhorer's a programmer? An engineer?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Even when dealing with a few dozen videos, cover images do nothing but get in the way. When dealing with hundreds, thousands, or even tens of thousands, they are just ridiculous. Even when dealing with one, they add nothing.
> 
> Like most people (especially those of us with plasma or projection TVs), I turn off the TV when listening to music. A close friend of mine is adamant about not having to turn on the TV in order to start listening to music, which is why he refuses to consider using the TiVo to play music. I don't mind turning it on to start the process, however, but after that the TV gets shut off. How is album art relevant or other cover images relevant when the video is shut off? (Note: as I mentioned before, Galleon's album art utility is interesting, as is their lyrics utility, but I rarely ever use either.)


You clearly do not have a place in the marketplace of today for digital delivery of video and music. You will simply not be able to sell a product that would work like you want it to a mainstream audience.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Fofer said:


> TiVo GoBack works with software provided by TiVo


Who provides it is irrelevant. Did Apple provide all the softwre you have on your Mac? (Obviously not, since by your own admission you have at least one piece of 3rd party software - TiVo Desktop - on your Mac.)



Fofer said:


> on my Mac.


The fact it is only written for the Mac and Windows is a huge negative. The fact it is extremely feature poor and doesn't work worth a flip - at least under Windows - is another. I can't speak to the Mac, but under Windows, it is slower than molasses in winter, locks up frequently, and has at least one or more large memory leaks. It is so feature poor under any platform as to be almost unworthy of being called an application. Maybe the term "works" was ill advised?



Fofer said:


> It's not a core feature that I expect from TiVo.


Neither are Amazon Unbox, Rhapsody, Swivel Search, downloads, photos, music, games, or most of the other features not directly related to recording and playing back TV programs off the air or from cable (or satellite), what you personally expect notwithstanding. Indeed, one could argue filtered searches and wishlists are not core features. Neither, by the way, is the UI. Nonethless, they are features TiVo has enabled and made available for the TiVo. Perhaps you hadn't noticed, but the 3rd party features interact directly with the TiVo UI, and neither Galleon, pyTivo, nor TiVo Desktop are designed to or do in fact work with any other platform. Core features or not, it is they which distinguish the Tivo from other platforms.



Fofer said:


> It's not something I use very often, but when I do, it works fine.


Well, that makes one user. Or does it? Wait, you were the one complaining about folder issues on the TiVo. So it does handle folders very well. No? Hmm. Well of course like almost every other application written in thelast ten years, and certainly every network application, it does work with your network shares. Oh, wait, it doesn't work with network shares? Hmm. OK, well it does run well as a service. Oh, wait, it won't run as a service (maybe it will on the Mac. It does more or less on WHS, but then most people don't have either WHS or a Mac)? Hmm. Ok, but it does run well under Linux. Oh, wait, it doesn't run under Linux? Hmm. OK, at least it is easy from one TiVo to select a program on another Tivo to be uploaded to TiVo Desktop. Oh, wait, it can't do that? Hmm. Well, it's music application is top notch. It can send Music files to the TiVo, right? Yeah, about like my butt chews gum. Trying to manage the files is an exercise in frustration, and keeping TDT's music server running properly is an even bigger frustration.

Shall I go on? The list is really, really long, with very little whatsoever to say in favor of TDT, I'm afraid.

Oh, and while I'm thinking of it, if you don't use it very often, and you don't use Galleon or pyTivo, then how did all those programs transferred back to your TiVo from your PC which make folders so desirable get there?



Fofer said:


> There's absolutely no comparison to Galleon and pyTiVo. They are hack add-ons, and not in any way, shape or form, user-friendly and ready for mass consumer consumption.


What a total crock. Both are significantly less painful to install than TiVo Desktop, whose installation can be problematical, especially if it is an upgrade installation. One of my machines never would run one of the versions at all, despite it's being a virgin install. Galleon can be a bit tricky to install on sone Linux distros. Version 2.4 went in like a fish down a pelican's gullet under Debian "Sarge", but I had to do some head scratching and ask a few questions to get 2.5 working fully under Debian "Etch". Still, it only took a couple of days to collect all the answers from various places, and only a few minutes to actually make the modifications necessary to get it to run.

Installing pyTivo only takes a few moments.

If any of the three is not ready for mass consumption, it's TiVo Desktop. It's not quite the worst piece of software I've seen in the last 10 years, but it surely tries to be. Just read through the number of posts in this forum where users are having trouble with TDT.



Fofer said:


> Please. I've used both. To suggest those as a "replacement" for TiVo's need to update their interface... is completely unrealistic.


If it isn't important enough to the user to take a little time to get an alternate solution working - especially when that solution provides them with much more more in the way of side benefits, then it isn't important enough to complain about, either.



Fofer said:


> I don't mean to give offense, but you strike me as a person who's lost touch with reality.


No, my systems do *EXACTLY* what I want, within the limits of their ability to perform to my desires. You are the one complaining about how your system fails to work. Who has the better grasp of reality, the individual who is both willing and able to modify reality to fit his needs, or the one who sits around and complains about his reality, expecting others to fix it for him? Within some limits, my system handles the folders I create on it very well. If you aren't willing to take the trouble to make yours do so, then either it must not be as important as you claim it to be, or your grasp of the reality is somewhat less than those of us who have made the effort and succeeded. Either way, it's your problem, not mine.



Fofer said:


> Rest assured, other players will eclipse TiVo very soon if TiVo doesn't get their act together and recognize that customers will be attracted to sexier solutions.


A number of people have been saying that very thing - in this very forum as a matter of fact - for ten years. Replay TV, MythTV, torrents, the split with D*, and the advent of CATV leased DVRs were all supposed to drive TiVo right out of business. Exactly when is this eclipse going to happen?

More to the point, what has your assertion to do with this discussion? This thread is supposed to be about what we as users and contributors to the thread want to see on our TiVos. Whether TiVo is going bankrupt or not is pretty much non sequitur.

Whatever. I have over 700 programs tucked away in a couple of dozen folders on my TiVos, and while I haven't yet had the time to cross-reference and file them all quite the way I want, it's getting there steadily and I'm happy with the results so far. Now if TiVo would modify HMO so the developers could implement streaming, I'd be a really happy camper.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> You clearly do not have a place in the marketplace of today for digital delivery of video and music. You will simply not be able to sell a product that would work like you want it to a mainstream audience.


You seem to be missing the point that my entire argument revolves around the fact the TiVo as it stands now does work the way I want (minus smaller and scalable fonts). I'm one of the ones who doesn't want it to change, remember? Are you claiming the TiVo does not sell to a mainstream audience?

That said, why on Earth would I care even if it were true? I couldn't possibly care less if the system I have was never purchased by any other human being. I purchase equipment because I want it to work the way I want to use it, not because anyone else, let alone everyone else wants it to work that way.

Oh, and by the way, TiVoWebPlus from which those screen shots were taken is an extremely popular application, and I am not trying to sell anything to anyone.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> tomatos , tomaatos.


Toemaytoes, if you please. 



MichaelK said:


> disorganized, in need of better logic, whatever you want to call it there's some 'interesting' locations for things.


Yea, verily, just not bad enough to call it a "mess". If you want a mess, go find someone whose financial software is provided by a company called PeopleSoft and have them try to show it to you. Now *THAT* is a mess. There is also a couple of old applications like Remedy and ACCU-Graph that are just plain obtuse and more spaghetti-like than anything an Italian chef could concoct. I swear the goofiest, however was some software written for dentists. My dentist used to use it. I don't recall its name, but oof, was it bad.

Or just go to a Time Warner Cable system which uses Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVRs with the Passport software, and check out the 8300HD. It aspires to be merely a mess.



MichaelK said:


> swiwel search combines the television guide data with unbox content. I assume it will be expended to contain the other 2 new download partners so there will be a single place to search for content. I dont see that as a bell and whistle. I dont want to have to search in 4 differnt places (1 tv listing and 3 downloads) to find something.


Taken strictly from a user's standpoint, I suppose I sort of see your point. From an engineering standpoint, however, searching a local database specifically designed for the TiVo's use and interfacing with a widely scattered bunch of databases designed in a completely different way for a different purpose probably requires very different engines. Any attempt to create a single interface to handle all four engines is liable to require significant compromises to both the engines and the interface, and given a choice between compromising the engines' performance and creating independent interfaces, I prefer the uncompromised engines.

More specifically for this case, however, I don't really care to handle my searches in the way Swivel Search handles them. First of all, it's manual and requires a great deal of user management and intervention. I want my searches to be automatic, building lists in one operation for browsing, or often to be recorded without my ever seeing them at all. Secondly, it takes what might be called a "Kevin Bacon Game" approach to searching for things. TiVo's newsletter even alluded to this. This is a sort of "sloppy" approach to searching. That sounds a little more disparaging than I intend, but I don't know how else to express it. It presumes that I may want to change the parameters of my search while I am in the middle of its being performed. As previously mentioned, it also presupposes that I want to interact in some way with the search. Very much to the contrary, I want my searches to be far less specific but much more well defined, and I want to limit my interaction with the TiVo as much as possible. Expressed more simply, I want the TiVo to do all the work. Any time I must interact with the unit to do anything other than watch (or pause, rewind, fast forward, etc.) an already recorded program I consider to be a failure on the part of the box. The more attention I must pay to the box to attain an objective, the worse the failure of the box. Swivel Search requires a fair amount of attention.



MichaelK said:


> if I understand correctly the swivel search is only availible to broadband connected dvr's as it is an HME app that actually runs up on some tivo server.


I don't know if it is HME or not, but yes, it employs remote servers. There's no way to avoid that, unless you don't search the internet. If it is HME, then it really illustrates my point. Sniff the network packets on HME transfers or read the HME SDK documentation and you will see what I mean. It would be positively goofy to employ HME protocols to search a local database. The local database contains information important to the TiVo's activities, such as date, time, and channel. Those are meaningless for an internet download. On the other hand, the size of the file is important to an internet download request but it isn't available for a scheduled recording until after it is recorded. The TiVo needs a network URL for a download, but that notion is meaningless for an RF input.



MichaelK said:


> So you now have one search (the original) that runs on the box no matter if the unit is connected to broadband or not, and another search (universal swivel search) that comes up for broadband users only and creates a second search on those boxes.


That was rather my point above. The user believes he is doing the same thing in both cases, but in fact he is doing two very, very different things. It's a little like trying to dig a hole in sandy soil versus mud. To the bystander who doesn't understand the fundamental difference between the two, it would seem to be the same, right? In both cases it's digging and they are both soft, right? Wrong. They require very different techniques and very different tools. They also present very different hazards to the workman.



MichaelK said:


> (eg make a varient of universal swivel search work on the tivos even when not connected to broadband)


The problem is making such an engine would likely be rather difficult and changing the local database to make it easier would likely cause it to be inefficient. The end result might well be a search engine which doesn't do either very well. I see such things all the time. The users often clamor for some utility or ability and then gripe when they get it and find they dislike its consequences. I'll give you an example. The users of one of our applications harped and harped to make a group of specific searches more general rather than having a number of separate, specific searches. Management put together the funding to implement the requested change (among others, of course) and got the developers to implement the changes. So now, instead of 4 or 5 searches, there's only 1. Wonderful. The only problem now is in some quite common cases a search which once took 4 or 5 seconds can now take more than 5 minutes.



MichaelK said:


> (actually thinking about it- I see your point that swivel search could use some filtering- but I guess the end game is to merge the best feautres of both of those- the filtering ability of the built in search with the getting all content of universal swivel- tell swivel you just want tv or just amazon or just hd- whatever)


Well, yes, everything would always be something nice to have, but in the real world some things are just not prudent to combine. Now of course I'm not the developer of TiVo's software and I don't know the code, so I can't really speak with much specific authority, but I have all too many times seen the horrible results produced by integration. A lot of people buy Swiss Army Knives, and indeed it is true with one tool and depending on the model you get a bottle opener, a saw, a pair of pliers, a pair of tweezers, a fork, a corkscrew, a couple of screwdrivers, and of course one or two knives, all in a very compact little package which fits in a pants pocket and can be literally a lifesaver in an emergency. It is also true, however, that what one gets is a rather poor bottle opener, a dinky saw, ineffective pliers, awkward tweezers, etc. If you have nothing else, then the SAK is the way to go, but no one who has a dedicated bottle opener, saw, pliers, etc ready to hand would prefer to use the SAK. It isn't even a very good knife.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Someone wake me when he's done.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

If you don't pay attention while he's providing useful information, you're not going to be any more well-informed afterwards.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I've read it all; I'm paying attention. I just disagree with his overriding thesis. Most of what he's arguing doesn't matter, to mainstream audiences in 2008 and beyond.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fofer said:


> I've read it all; I'm paying attention. I just disagree with his overriding thesis. Most of what he's arguing doesn't matter, to mainstream audiences in 2008 and beyond.


What, you don't think DOS 5 would be a Windows/Mac killer?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> YAre you claiming the TiVo does not sell to a mainstream audience?


I am claiming that they could sell more with a UI that wasn't 10 years old.


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## s2kdave (Jan 28, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> Galleon is java based. Of course as you once pointed out to me, galleon is HMO, not HME.


Actually, galleon is HMO *and* HME. Most of the apps are HME except some like the Togo app.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> What, you don't think DOS 5 would be a Windows/Mac killer?


I never said it would, but it was relatively bug free. Nothing MS has produced since then can make that claim. It was also fast and easy on resources, and it was well supported for small end users by MS. Using those words in the same breath with NT, 2000, XP, Word, Outlook, etc is ludicrous.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I am claiming that they could sell more with a UI that wasn't 10 years old.


Then you might have said so, rather than saying the UI I prefer couldn't sell to the masses. It isn't the topic of this thread, however. The topic of this thread is what do the members of this forum (who mostly already have Tivos and probably aren't going to buy one any time soon) want on their TiVos.

Per the last message, you also seem to be unaware that the UI used by Windows was developed in 1987, more than 20 years ago, and well before the release of DOS 5 or the TiVo. Both it and the Mac have UIs that are older than the TiVo.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

s2kdave said:


> Actually, galleon is HMO *and* HME. Most of the apps are HME except some like the Togo app.


Well, you would certainly know. 

I've briefly looked at the specs for HME, and I've sniffed the messages from both Galleon and pyTiVo, but I've never dived into the protocols for either.

Hey, if you don't mind, meet me on the galleon 2.5 thread for a second, will you?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Per the last message, you also seem to be unaware that the UI used by Windows was developed in 1987, more than 20 years ago, and well before the release of DOS 5 or the TiVo. Both it and the Mac have UIs that are older than the TiVo.


Both have undergone significant changes to their UI since then. TiVo is, save for added functionality, the same as it is since the first day it was released.

I hope they can tweak their current UI to accomodate their new services, that's pretty much the extent of it. If they had still only done TV recording, their old UI would work fine.

As far as I can tell, your idea for an improved user interface consists of endless lists of text. It's not gonna sell. Simple as that.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

funny how peoples opinions vary so much.

but one thing I have to say.

I completely disagree that the UI at this point on HD boxes should be 4:3 based and adapted to fit the 16:9 screens that the vast majority of HD boxes are connected to and the vast majority of new TV's be sold will have. The UI should be 16:9 based with the ability to get adapted down to 4:3.

I understand you like your 4:3 SD menus for your particular needs, but that really doesn't fit the marketplace well at this point. 

Irhorers point about budget is sort of odd to me- how many people can affort 200 bucks for a box and then 13 a month for the service and dont also have the throwing around money to get a 16:9 set of a larger size? I'm sure there are some that have a few hundred and decide an HD tivo is more important then a tv but is that the majority of tivo hd box customers at this point.


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## wblynch (Aug 13, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> Irhorers point about budget is sort of odd to me- how many people can affort 200 bucks for a box and then 13 a month for the service and dont also have the throwing around money to get a 16:9 set of a larger size? I'm sure there are some that have a few hundred and decide an HD tivo is more important then a tv but is that the majority of tivo hd box customers at this point.


Well, you're not considering the many people who are contemplating a TivoHD to use with a traditional TV because of the upcoming switch to digital broadcasts.

TivoHD is a very attractive solution to these people who understand their old, reliable Tivo will no longer work.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> funny how peoples opinions vary so much.
> 
> but one thing I have to say.
> 
> ...


Anecdotally, I bought the TiVo HD to go with a 4:3 set 6 months ago, and still haven't got a timeline for purchasing an HD set(maybe end-of-summer, if I spot a deal I like). Being able to dual-tune digital channels and some of the other "found only in S3 models" features attracted me enough to make the plunge. And, when comparing a digital program from the HD to a best-quality recording from my DT, the picture quality difference, even when shown on an SD set, is remarkably noticeable.

Also, even though 16:9 sets are now outselling 4:3s, the number of already-in-use 4:3 sets quite simply dwarfs the 16:9 sets. That'll eventually change, but it'll still be awhile.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> I completely disagree that the UI at this point on HD boxes should be 4:3 based and adapted to fit the 16:9 screens that the vast majority of HD boxes are connected to and the vast majority of new TV's be sold will have. The UI should be 16:9 based with the ability to get adapted down to 4:3.


They should just letterbox the 16:9 menus in the 4:3 set. It's ridiculous that they used the old 4:3 format for their new HD TiVos.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

MickeS said:


> It's ridiculous that they used the old 4:3 format for their new HD TiVos.


+1. It's also ridiculous that they used SD menus on their HD TiVos.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> I completely disagree that the UI at this point on HD boxes should be 4:3 based and adapted to fit the 16:9 screens that the vast majority of HD boxes are connected to and the vast majority of new TV's be sold will have. The UI should be 16:9 based with the ability to get adapted down to 4:3.


Well, OK. My point was the 4:3 user should not be left out in the cold. Scalable fonts eliminate the need for either design. Simply make them scalable to the user's desires, whatever they are and for whatever reason. Then the 6:9 / 4:3 debate becomes moot.



valderost said:


> I understand you like your 4:3 SD menus for your particular needs, but that really doesn't fit the marketplace well at this point.


I disagree. Many people in this very forum have stated they are using older sets with their S3 class TiVo.



valderost said:


> Irhorers point about budget is sort of odd to me- how many people can affort 200 bucks for a box and then 13 a month for the service and dont also have the throwing around money to get a 16:9 set of a larger size?


A lot, actually, including me, and my salary is six figures. Some are students or young people just starting out who can squeeze in 200 plus $13 a month, but not an additional $1500 or more at the moment. Some are people who purchased the S3 units as gifts, but there is no way they can afford to give an HDTV, as well. Others, like me, have multiple sets but have one or two on which upgrading to HD is just a waste of money, and a waste of money, no matter how free one's budget may be is just foolish. Don't forget about those who just want to buy a TiVo. Since the S2 is either now or soon will be manufacture discontinued, an S3 class machine will soon be the only option for a new TiVo. Finally, there are those who see the S3 as a way to hedge against the upcoming shut down of analog TV, but don't as yet want to foray into HD land.



valderost said:


> I'm sure there are some that have a few hundred and decide an HD tivo is more important then a tv but is that the majority of tivo hd box customers at this point.


A wise company meets the needs of both its majority and minority clients as long as servicing the needs of the minority clients does not seriously impact the needs of its majority clients. Profitability versus a lack thereof is often a matter of 1% or 2%, not 80%. There are few companies anywhere which can easily afford to keep 90% of their customers while losing 10%.

More importantly, as I have already pointed out, this thread was not about what will make TiVo, Inc more or less profitable, it is about what will make the Tivo unit itself better, in particular in the opinion of each individual in this forum.

Oh and just BTW, profitibility is not only about mass market appeal. General Motors sells a lot more cars, but this in no way implies Ferrari is going bankrupt.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Fofer said:


> +1. It's also ridiculous that they used SD menus on their HD TiVos.


No, it isn't. HD menus take up more space and require more time and CPU resources to render while delivering no benefit whatsoever.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Both have undergone significant changes to their UI since then.


'Mostly not significant, just silly and useless.



MickeS said:


> As far as I can tell, your idea for an improved user interface consists of endless lists of text. It's not gonna sell. Simple as that.


Not endless, just comprehensive. Tell me, if you can't effectively manage your recorded programs, why bother having an interface whose only purpose is to manage them? It is simply not possible to manage thousands of programs with a strictly icon based interface.

I am also at this point compelled to wonder just how much time you spend fiddling with the menus rather than using the TiVo for it's intended purpose. I don't play with menus. I hit <play>. If I can view the entire contents of the TiVo WRT the function I am using in a single screen, great. If not, far, far less great. If it requires screen after screen after screen, after screen to wade through a few hundred or so programs, then its a wate of my time, and frankly I don't appreciate it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

gonzotek said:


> Also, even though 16:9 sets are now outselling 4:3s, the number of already-in-use 4:3 sets quite simply dwarfs the 16:9 sets. That'll eventually change, but it'll still be awhile.


Yes, but evidently the needs and desires of the majority of consumers versus minorities is only of concern when it agrees with the preconceptions of certain members of the forum.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> 'Mostly not significant, just silly and useless.


I get it. Everything that actually improves the user experience is "silly and useless" to you, unless it adds some technical functionality. Well, your product would be dead out of the gates as a commercial alternative in today's world.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> I am also at this point compelled to wonder just how much time you spend fiddling with the menus rather than using the TiVo for it's intended purpose. I don't play with menus. I hit <play>. If I can view the entire contents of the TiVo WRT the function I am using in a single screen, great. If not, far, far less great. If it requires screen after screen after screen, after screen to wade through a few hundred or so programs, then its a wate of my time, and frankly I don't appreciate it.


I spend TOO MUCH time fiddling with menus when I want to listen to music or download content from my PC or Amazon Unbox. That's the entire point of this argument. You're not interested in anything besides recording TV, and I've already pointed out that their UI is fine for recording TV.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I spend TOO MUCH time fiddling with menus when I want to listen to music or download content from my PC or Amazon Unbox. That's the entire point of this argument. You're not interested in anything besides recording TV, and I've already pointed out that their UI is fine for recording TV.


yep, the menus actually serve to obfuscate the other newer features since the menus were initially designed around recording and the other stauff added on

TiVo will not sell that many more DVRs with a new menu ... BUT ... will get more people using features that are more prominently displayed and that can mean more revenue for TiVo and less churn once people get hooked on features that other DVRs do not have


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

MickeS said:


> Both have undergone significant changes to their UI since then. TiVo is, save for added functionality, the same as it is since the first day it was released.


They've added additional screens (some quite important like the Season Pass Manager; which wasn't present in the launch software on the original 14 hour TiVos).

And the Now Playing list has picked up options for grouping and sorting which weren't available prior to the Series 2 TiVo software. (well, there was a special code for enabling sorting in series 1 units, but not part of the visible UI)

Other TiVos on the local network appears in the Now Playing screen with the 7.1 software that enabled multi-room viewing.

Wishlists picked up a major overhaul with the 9.1 software

Ok, some of those can be waved away as "added functionality", but they're pretty significant modifications to pretty core functions (manage what gets recorded, how conflicts are resolved, what wishlist matches to not record, and where you can watch recorded programming). Not peripheral add-ons like adding the ability to play games, or see the weather forecast.

So, while the changes to the user interface are mild and gradual, I don't quite think its fair to call it "same as it is since the first day it was released, save for added functionality"


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo will not sell that many more DVRs with a new menu ... BUT ... will get more people using features that are more prominently displayed and that can mean more revenue for TiVo and less churn once people get hooked on features that other DVRs do not have


Exactly.


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## rjcrum (Jun 28, 2002)

I started the thread, but haven't been back for a few days. Thought I'd weigh in after having read *almost* all of the 5 pages of rather lively discussion! There were several good points made, and I would have to say that MickeS nicely summarized what I feel, too:



MickeS said:


> But they need to update the UI ASAP to accommodate the new services they are trying to push - Rhapsody, Unbox, home networking etc. As it is now, the still excellent-for-TV original UI is jury-rigged to the max to deal with these new delivery methods, and the result is a confusing mish-mash.


That was my original point--that the original UI for TiVo has been piecemeal added to over several years, each little addition seemingly "making sense" at the time it was added. But, after 10? 15? 20? 30? major feature releases, UI changes and new services being added.....it's just a mish-mash that is very confusing.

I believe there is value in taking a step back, and looking at what TiVo is *now*, not what it has evolved to be. Then design a UI based around that which will take you forward for another 5 years (or less). Then....do the same thing. Take advantage of new research in UI design, the market response to new UIs in technologies that didn't exists when TiVo was first introduced. What do I mean?

At the highest level, TiVo is now an "entertainment center" that can provide video, audio and photo entertainment.


The video can come from broadcast TV, cable/satellite TV, video podcasts, downloaded Unbox shows, (soon) YouTube video, (soon) streaming CinemaNow video, personal video (from your own camcorder, or other videos you have acquired).

The audio can come from your own music stored on your home's PCs, audio podcasts and streaming music services

The photos can come from your own pictures stored on your home's PCs and online services

(I probably missed something....sorry.)

Having looked at the UI for a number of other products, I believe there is a convergence of ideas that at the highest level in the UI it should reflect these concepts. In other words, you're asking the user at the outset "Do you want to play, find or record video-- play or find music--show pictures."

If we choose "Video" from the highest level, we can then have choices:


Play recorded video
Find new programs (which uses Swivel Search to integrate ALL sources: broadcast, cable, podcasts, Unbox downloads, video podcasts)
Manage my Season Passes
See my To Do list

(and maybe a few other things....sorry, thinking on the fly here.)

I think an approach to simplify, based on use cases of what users commonly do, would be of great benefit. You can bury all the little used stuff under a "Settings" icon in the lower right side of the screen. Where every you are, hitting the "Settings" icon brings up "configuration and settings" stuff for the context of that screen. It might be account management, connecting to Yahoo, adding an Unbox screen name, troubleshooting....whatever. I just think that a lot of the things on the various menus could be moved to a less prominent place, replacing them either with more used/more useful shortcuts or....gasp.....empty space, which visually opens, unclutters, and simplifies the UI.

I also realized that not everyone will have the same needs, so I think the idea of customizable menus is attractive...as long as the configuration to create them isn't too difficult! Perhaps on a given screen, there is an option in "Setting" to selectively include or exclude items on the menu.

As you can tell, I haven't done a complete workup of a new menu structure...and I probably won't. But I believe that an effort by TiVo to step back....take a deep breath....and put pencil to blank paper would be an extremely good idea.

I volunteer for the focus group on UI design!!!


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I have a Vudu set-top box (basically got it for free.) Compared to TiVo, Vudu's interface is very slick... it looks the way a modern set-top box UI _should_ look, IMHO.






I don't know how long Vudu will be around, due to competition in this space. But I have to say, they got the UI right...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fofer said:


> I have a Vudu set-top box (basically got it for free.) Compared to TiVo, Vudu's interface is very slick... it looks the way a modern set-top box UI _should_ look, IMHO.


Can't wait to hear lrhorer complain that there isn't enough spreadsheet style data on screen.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Fofer said:


> I have a Vudu set-top box (basically got it for free.) Compared to TiVo, Vudu's interface is very slick... it looks the way a modern set-top box UI _should_ look, IMHO.


I certainly appears snappy. It would seem half the work of catalog browsing is done by their web servers on the back end. Does it have a text-based search or are you expected to always poke around the 6,000 choices (an order of magnitude less than what's indexed in the program guide) with the GUI?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

vman41 said:


> Does it have a text-based search


Yes, it has text-based "Search by Title" as well as "Search by Cast & Crew." The "keyboard" grid is similar to TiVo's, and as you choose letters , the matching/filtered titles show up immediately on the left. It feels much more responsive and fluid than TiVo (and since the results show up as little title cards for each movie, it looks nicer and more dynamic too.) I'm sure the little title cards wouldn't lend themselves to TV guide data... but the rest of the UI could sure teach TiVo a thing or two.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

Fofer said:


> LOL!
> 
> Yeah, I'm feeling pretty comfortable ignoring any of lrhorer's "insight" on appropriate set-top box user interface. I'm all for more data, but c'mon now.
> 
> Lemme guess... lrhorer's a programmer? An engineer?


He _is_ an engineer and one thing I've learned is you do _not_ put an engineer in charge of human interface design. I have friends who are engineers and they have no interest at all in how an interfaces looks, feels or flows together. They have a kind of bare bones approach to doing things and any other way is just not logical to them. For example, while the rest of us may agree that a TiVo HD should display menus in HD (it is an HD device after all) his view would be that it's just information to be displayed and SD is good enough. We may want things to look nice in addition to being functional but to him the way it looks is irrelevant. This same view is shared by my engineer friends. He said it best himself:

"_The TiVo is a tool, and almost none of my better tools are shiny. Their finish is worn, cracked, and flaking. They get used, not looked at. 'The same with the TiVo._"

Of course I vehemently disagree with this view. You have to look at the TiVo interface in order to use it right? So why not make it look and feel intuitive? I have to say though that "worn, cracked and flaking" is a good description of the aging TiVo interface. 

Soon (relatively) all the major cable providers will start implementing the Tru2way interface and from what I have seen (LINK) TiVo will have to do something about their interface in order to compete. Tru2way is a huge leap past the current interfaces used by the cable providers. Many more people will be content renting a box from their cable provider with such an improved interface and user experience. There will also be Tru2way compatible televisions, TV/DVR combos and (hopefully) standalone DVRs available that will share this interface. TiVo itself is working on a Tru2way DVR so it will be interesting to see how they approach it given recent developments.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

bkdtv said:


> I think TiVo is on the right track with the guide in the Comcast UI software, except it needs to be implemented in a 16:9 version. DirecTV is headed in that direction, and Dish Network already has a 16:9 guide. Dish recently announced a new and improved version of their 16:9 guide [for their next-generation box] which would incorporate more color and channel logos.
> 
> 
> Click image for more Comcast TiVo screens taken by Steve Garfield.


This takes care of my two major interface complaints. 1). I can see what's playing via the small picture in the corner of the screen. 2). I can see what's scheduled to record at a glance as I browse the listings.



bkdtv said:


> I'll give you that. Here's the current Dish Network guide:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's nice about this is you can choose to have double-size grids if you prefer to have two line descriptions. Eliminates truncated titles.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Soon (relatively) all the major cable providers will start implementing the Tru2way interface and from what I have seen (LINK) TiVo will have to do something about their interface in order to compete.


That's a nice looking interface that takes advantage of the 16:9 format. It's what TiVo should have done. That interface looks a LOT better for a 16:9 screen than anything TiVo has on any screen.

If TiVo insists on making menus targeted at 24" 4:3 TVs, they might as well hang it up soon.


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

MickeS said:


> That's a nice looking interface that takes advantage of the 16:9 format. It's what TiVo should have done. That interface looks a LOT better for a 16:9 screen than anything TiVo has on any screen.
> 
> If TiVo insists on making menus targeted at 24" 4:3 TVs, they might as well hang it up soon.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Why the rolled eyes? He's completely correct.

Only I don't think it's that TiVo "insists" on them. It's rather, they don't think it's important enough to spend the time/money necessary to change it.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fofer said:


> Why the rolled eyes? He's completely correct.
> 
> Only I don't think it's that TiVo "insists" on them. It's rather, they don't think it's important enough to spend the time/money necessary to change it.


Which, until I'd say 1-2 years ago, it might have been the right call - there was nothing that the competitors had that was substantially better than TiVo for recording TV, that I know if, and most was substantially worse (my SA 8300HD with SARA software for example was just so awful that TiVo could have released a black and white 2:1 interface at 240x120 with a command prompt and I think I would have still picked them ).

But now their HD product has been out for 2 years, and they are trying to compete with download offerings and improved cable DVRs (who knows when the one linked to above will actually be released, but I'm gonna guess before TiVo has anything like it). If the competitor's reliability when it comes to recordings has been improved, and if they have a better UI, and if someone has an AppleTV or some other box... what reason would there possibly be to choose a TiVo? I can't think of a single reason.

Now, they'll still have me as a customer - I'm used to it, and despite the cumbersome interface for downloading and music, I still use it because it's there - plus I'm OTA only, which basically only leaves TiVo as a simple and inexpensive alternative.
A person who has cable and uses non-TiVo downloads already, what incentive would there be to get a TiVo?

But, I'm hoping that the cable DVRs will continue to be worse than TiVo.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I have my UserCP set to display 50 posts per page.

Does anyone else think it's beautifully apropos that the (oversized) screenshots that lrhorer shared (of TiVoWeb, his "ideal" DVR interface) have screwed up the formatting of this page? I'm having to scroll right and left to read the text on my 15" laptop screen, set to the highest resolution.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I spend TOO MUCH time fiddling with menus when I want to listen to music


Then you are doing something truly odd. I just did a trial run, and it took me 4 menu selections and 47 seconds to start my music, at which time the TV was shut off and I am now ready to listen to - should I so choose - better than a solid week of uninterrupted music without a single duplication the entire time. At that, it took me longer than usual, because it is very bright daylight at the moment, and I have a projection TV, so I had to wait quite a few seconds longer than usual for the TV screen to become legible when turning on the TV.



MickeS said:


> or download content from my PC


Once again, you must be doing something odd, because downloading from the PC only requires two menu selections plus navigation of the folders. The UI parameters you are proposing, however, will add literally hours to attempting to select a program to play. The link shown above sports a whole 6 programs at a time. My library of movies is already approaching 1000 movies and series episodes. By next year this time I expect it to exceed 3000 or perhaps 4000. Even if every screen can be selected and viewed in 1/2 second (unlikely), merely browsing through 3000 programs will require over half an hour. The number one complaint from my guests when they come over is it takes too long to scroll through all the movies, and that is with only 400 movies displayed 8 per screen. The number two complaint is that we must select the movie in order to see its synopsis.



MickeS said:


> or Amazon Unbox.


At this point Amazon Unbox is pretty much hopeless no matter how one slices or dices it. No amount of fiddling with a UI is going to make up for lousy, expensive, limited content.



MickeS said:


> That's the entire point of this argument. You're not interested in anything besides recording TV, and I've already pointed out that their UI is fine for recording TV.


Hmm. Using a Digital Video Recorder to record digital video. I'll admit that's a radical notion.

I am intersted in seeng to it that every tool I use is as effective to its task as cost will allow. In general this means the tool must be dedicated to only a single generalized function. The digital computer, however, is the ultimate in configurable tools, and the TiVo is of course based on a digital computer. Thus, it can very effectively be employed to handle a wide array of similar functions, so there is nothing at all wrong with expanding its functionality to include photos, music, etc. A poor UI can actually make it difficult to access functions on a machine, and believe me I have seen some poor ones. Adding lots of irrelevant bitmaps which eat up machine resources, waste screen real estate, and convey no information whatsoever to the user in no way adds to the value of the UI. "Slick" is meaningless and faddish. "Powerful" and "fast" are meaningful and timeless.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

And yet, a properly implemented UI can be powerful, fast, *and* slick. Elegant, integrated, and easy.

The current TiVo UI feels like it's tacked together with bubble gum and scotch tape.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Fofer said:


> I have my UserCP set to display 50 posts per page.


So what? I've left mine set to the forum default, which seems to be something like 44. The salient point is it is user configurable.



MickeS said:


> Does anyone else think it's beautifully apropos that the (oversized)


It is not over-sized. It was a screen shot, and on my 1920 x 1200 pixel PC screen, it takes up less than 2/3 of the screen. On my 1920 x 1080i HDTV screen, it would take up a similar amount, although there would be a few less lines per screen.



MickeS said:


> screenshots that lrhorer shared (of TiVoWeb, his "ideal" DVR interface)


No, not ideal, but closer to it. There is a modest amount of unnecessary junk on the TWP lists.



MickeS said:


> have screwed up the formatting of this page? I'm having to scroll right and left to read the text on my 15" laptop screen, set to the highest resolution.


So use a real computer, rather than a kludge like a laptop, or live with the consequences of using a kludge.

More to the point, ideally the user should be able to format the screens the way he wants, with either larger or smaller fonts. On my 144" 1900 x 1080 projection screen, the screen shots I posted would work very well. On my 25" 480 line 4:3 NTSC monitor they would not. On a 19" it would be even worse. Giving the user a screen with scalable fonts allows him to configure to meet his needs based upon his screen size, resolution, viewing distance, and visual acuity.

What's more, even set to ridiculously low resolutions, I still don't have to scroll my screen. The fact you do just illustrates my point even more succinctly: The screen parameters need to be in the hands of the user, not some idiot of a graphic designer.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> So what?


I pointed out that I've set my "posts per page" to 50 so that my next comment -- about the placement of your oversized images -- would make sense. Anyone else who'd set their UserCP to a different amount might not currently be experiencing the same layout problems, as a result of your inline image.



lrhorer said:


> The salient point is it is user configurable.


I'm aware that it's user configurable; that's precisely why I pointed out what I'd configured mine to be. 

No, the salient point is that you're unable to see a world where people have valid opinions that differ so drastically from your own.

It's clear that your view of "how things should work" is antiquated and no longer applicable in today's day and age. I'm sure it's frustrating for you to have to face this, but you should know, your long-winded posts are devolving into nonsense.



lrhorer said:


> So use a real computer, rather than a kludge like a laptop, or live with the consequences of using a kludge.


<chuckle>

So... a laptop isn't a "real" computer. It's a "kludge."

Okay, dude, whatever. You're quite a character. Keep the hits coming! The more you type, the easier it is to discount...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> What's more, even set to ridiculously low resolutions, I still don't have to scroll my screen. The fact you do just illustrates my point even more succinctly: The screen parameters need to be in the hands of the user, not some idiot of a graphic designer.


I have a 22 inch screen set to a good resolution - but then I also have widgets on the right and fit my browser in the rest of the screen to the left.
Your screenshot also gave that page a bit of scroll for me as well. 
Real world is the graphic designer has to allow for the real world.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Then you are doing something truly odd. I just did a trial run, and it took me 4 menu selections and 47 seconds to start my music


You probably don't have a lot of artists in your Music folder then. Good luck getting to ZZ Top in under 10 minutes on my computer.  I used a 3rd party app that made it slightly easier (J River Media Center) but it started crashing on me for some reason and I had to discontinue use of it. I guess if I re-arranged the music folders on my PC it might help, but it's ridiculous that the TiVo only uses the folder structure to display music in the first place.

And FOUR menu selections is way too much as it is. Would you accept that "Now Playing" was 4 levels deep? I wouldn't. And there's no reason to accept that Music is either.



lrhorer said:


> At this point Amazon Unbox is pretty much hopeless no matter how one slices or dices it. No amount of fiddling with a UI is going to make up for lousy, expensive, limited content.


They don't have limited content, comparatively (for example, compare them to Netflix's much touted new service and Amazon is looking pretty good...). Expensive? Not compared to PPV. Of course a new UI would help - once again, you wouldn't accept this for watching your recorded TV shows, no reason to accept it for Unbox.



lrhorer said:


> Hmm. Using a Digital Video Recorder to record digital video. I'll admit that's a radical notion.


You know what I meant. TiVo is clearly targeting more than just TV recording. You're just not in their target audience anymore.


lrhorer said:


> Adding lots of irrelevant bitmaps which eat up machine resources, waste screen real estate, and convey no information whatsoever to the user in no way adds to the value of the UI. "Slick" is meaningless and faddish. "Powerful" and "fast" are meaningful and timeless.


There's no reason a good UI can't be both (and don't pretend images are irrelevant - do you think DVDs should be sold without covers too)?

Did you even look at the Vudu example above? And you were the one who said it's OK to bury music 4 levels deep - how is THAT powerful and fast?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> More to the point, ideally the user should be able to format the screens the way he wants, with either larger or smaller fonts. On my 144" 1900 x 1080 projection screen, the screen shots I posted would work very well. On my 25" 480 line 4:3 NTSC monitor they would not. On a 19" it would be even worse. Giving the user a screen with scalable fonts allows him to configure to meet his needs based upon his screen size, resolution, viewing distance, and visual acuity.
> 
> What's more, even set to ridiculously low resolutions, I still don't have to scroll my screen. The fact you do just illustrates my point even more succinctly: The screen parameters need to be in the hands of the user, not some idiot of a graphic designer.


I agree. You're still talking about how the TiVo should work, right?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Ooh, nice catch, MickeS.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I get it. Everything that actually improves the user experience


No, anything which enhances or improves the user experience is quite valuable. Large amounts of wasted screen real estate does not in any way enhance or improve the user experience. It can and often does needlessly extend and interfere with it. This is an interface designed to tell a computer what to do, not a painting or a photograph to be gazed upon as an art object. The less time the user spends looking at it at all, the better.



MickeS said:


> is "silly and useless" to you, unless it adds some technical functionality.


I have no idea what "technical functionality" means. A very good definition of "use", however, is "to cause to function". A very good definition of "useless" is "without functionality".



MickeS said:


> Well, your product would be dead out of the gates as a commercial alternative in today's world.


Even if it were true, which I dispute, it's not relevant to the topic at hand, which I have repeatedly pointed out, but which you continually ignore. Just by way of rebuttal, however, the fact is a large percentage of users do prefer a web based tool to a proprietary UI, and TiVoWebPlus is a web based tool. Even presupposing my suggestions are anathema to anyone who is not an engineer, mathematician, or scientist, you totally overlook the fact that there are millions of engineers, mathematicians, and scientists out there, and that engineers and scientists in general have significant amounts of discretionary income. It's true Chevrolet sells a huge number of vehicles in spite of employing very pedestrian engineering, but that does not mean that BMW, Volvo, and Audi don't sell any cars based upon reliable reputations for superior engineering.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Fofer said:


> I have a Vudu set-top box (basically got it for free.) Compared to TiVo, Vudu's interface is very slick...


Let me see... things that are slick:
Owl feces
mucous
slime molds
rotting vegetation
hagfish
rancid bacon
crooked used car salesmen...

The list is lengthy as it is noisome, but I mostly prefer most of its members to much of what I saw in that demo. With an interface like that, it would take me hours to choose a movie to watch, and by the time I got to the end of the list, I would have long forgotten my first cuts unless I took the time to write down the candidates as I went.



Fofer said:


> it looks the way a modern set-top box UI _should_ look, IMHO.


Not on my TiVo, if I have anything whatsoever to say about it. I want to watch programs, not play endlessly with a silly UI. As far as the Vudu box itself is concerned, even before I knew it had a poor UI, I was fairly uninterested. Admittedly it sounds much better than Amazon Unbox, but the details are a bit vague on its performance, and it is expensive. Of course, a live demo might change my mind, but my first impression is definitely, "No thanks."


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

rjcrum said:


> it's just a mish-mash that is very confusing.


How is it confusing? Is English a foreign language for you? Directions written by an Indian or Korean whose command of English is poor are often confusing. Politician's speeches are often confusing. A well designed maze is very confusing. The TiVo interface, while indeed slightly less than completely logical, falls far, far away from being "very confusing". At worst it only takes a few moments to figure it out, and having done so it only requires a few iterations to internalize it.



rjcrum said:


> At the highest level, TiVo is now an "entertainment center" that can provide video, audio and photo entertainment.


At the highest, lowest and middle level, it is a DVR. All of those functions are within the scope of a DVR, but so what?



rjcrum said:


> In other words, you're asking the user at the outset "Do you want to play, find or record video-- play or find music--show pictures."


That's an overly simplistic approach which not only ignores many important functions of the TiVo, but also lumps together functionality under one umbrella which might not best be lumped together. As I already pointed out, on-demand content (such as internet content) is a fundamentally different thing from scheduled content on streaming RF feeds. The user might want tol think of them as being the same, but that doesn't mean he should, or that accommodating a poorly considered notion is a good idea.



rjcrum said:


> [*]Find new programs (which uses Swivel Search to integrate ALL sources: broadcast, cable, podcasts, Unbox downloads, video podcasts)


How will swivel Search automatically record all college football games over the next two weeks? How will Swivel Search show me in a single list all HD movies over the next two weeks?



rjcrum said:


> I think an approach to simplify, based on use cases of what users commonly do


Which users? The worst common denominator rarely if ever produces optimal solutions for anyone, and frequently leaves many individuals out in the cold.



rjcrum said:


> You can bury all the little used stuff under a "Settings" icon in the lower right side of the screen.


Little used by whom? Options in the Settings menu (most notably Channels I Receive) are used by me nearly an order of magnitude more often than any other menu except "Now Playing". On one of my TiVos, it is far and away the most commonly used menu, since I rearely use "Now Playing" on that TiVo.



rjcrum said:


> I also realized that not everyone will have the same needs, so I think the idea of customizable menus is attractive...as long as the configuration to create them isn't too difficult!


No offense intended, but if you find the TiVo UI confusing, I can't see how any reasonably effective configuration utility would not seem too difficult in your estimation.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> I want to watch programs, not play endlessly with a silly UI.


There we agree. Which is why TiVo's current interface for anything besides viewing recorded TV needs updating.

But you don't need to agree with that - it's abundantly clear that you are not interested in anything except watching recorded TV, so obviously the TiVo works fine for you. You are simply not in the target audience for any of these services, so obviously it doesn't matter to you that the music is buried 4 levels deep, or that the Unbox interface looks and works like crap compared to the competitors.


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## tfellad (Jul 7, 2006)

Change is good. I agree with a new UI. The exterior appearance of the unit looks sort of modern contemporary. But the UI is outdated and I know that the cartoon thingy is like a trademark. But that is too juvenile at this time. I realize that Tivo was in trouble awhile back with declining memberships. They have reinstated the lifetime service again. Also with gas prices on the rise. Having Tivo service is not a vital component of life. So a few updates here and there would definitely maintain its current customer base, while attracting potential customers. Tivo are indeed pioneers of the DVR industry. But the thought of shopping around is continuing to be a alternative.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tfellad said:


> Tivo are indeed pioneers of the DVR industry. But the thought of shopping around is continuing to be a alternative.


shopping around for ? ....

you have Apple TV and some other download type services - not DVRs though

you have Media Center or open source - expensive to have them plug into the digital and/or HD cable TV

You have cable company or DBS DVRs

so maybe OTA only is an alternative and yes alternatives there - but for those that want the channels and choices a cable company provides then the alternatives are not so many right now.

If I was TiVo I would not be fretting much about the menu on series 3 down save for ways to make revenue genrating features more promnent.

any real UI design workover I would be aiming at the Series 4 which is ground up different anyhow.


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## wblynch (Aug 13, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> If I was TiVo I would not be fretting much about the menu on series 3 down save for ways to make revenue genrating features more promnent.
> 
> any real UI design workover I would be aiming at the Series 4 which is ground up different anyhow.


Whatever happened to the old ideal of making things better? Or wanting to be the best? It used to be that manufacturers would do anything to be the best, and always the best, in their field.

Now it's relegated to profits and profits alone. In my mind this guarantees mediocrity.

TivoPony or TivoJerry or one of the Tivo....s recently said (paraphrased) that they only care about things that will help them sell one more box or generate one more dollar of revenue. (I think it was made in reference to the most often requested feature improvement)

I have been a Tivo user since late 2000 and a direcTV Tivo user since they first came out. Threatened by the loss of Tivo when DirecTV dropped our HD locals, I thought I would have to either leave DirecTV or leave Tivo.

I then purchased a TivoHD with the intention of cancelling DirecTV and going OTA only. Well, I realized that our DirecTV Tivo can also receive HD OTA and I put up the antenna and things are great.

NOW.... after all this consternation and reading these boards and learning more about Tivo's attitude (which I consider ..er.. poor) and the generic DVR improvements from both Cable and Satellite providers, I am no longer married to my Tivo or nothing perception.

I am now moving toward the camp that when my DirecTV Tivo quits working I will ~ most likely ~ drop Tivo for the latest and greatest DirecTV DVR offering.

At this point, I am no so certain I could invest further in TiVo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wblynch said:


> Whatever happened to the old ideal of making things better? Or wanting to be the best? It used to be that manufacturers would do anything to be the best, and always the best, in their field..


uummmm - that is exactly why they are making the series 4.

This argument is kind of like - why doesn't Microsoft improve the UI in XP. Or why doesn't Apple improve the UI on their older versions of the OS? Answer is the same as TiVo in general gave -- because they would make no money doing so and thus are more focused on improving by making the next generation of product.


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## wblynch (Aug 13, 2003)

So I guess my $400 I paid for lifetime service above the cost of the TivoHD doesn't go towards improvements?

They already have my money so the heck with me? Is that what you're saying?

The more I read, the less I like Tivo as a company. I'd better stay off the internet before I learn to hate Tivo.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> There we agree. Which is why TiVo's current interface for anything besides viewing recorded TV needs updating.


That's not what's being suggested here. What's being suggested by some of the participants is a complete reworking of the UI, including the recording utilities and the playback UI. Indeed, as I've said before I myself would like to see scalable fonts in the NPL with perhaps 50 or so programs displayed per screen to include the entire program name and at least a part of the synopsis of each program.



MickeS said:


> But you don't need to agree with that - it's abundantly clear that you are not interested in anything except watching recorded TV


Not true. As I have mentioned before, I use it for music all the time. Whenever I'm relaxing reading, at dinnertime, or when I have guests over I usually play music. Occasionally I just sit and listen to music.



MickeS said:


> so obviously the TiVo works fine for you. You are simply not in the target audience for any of these services, so obviously it doesn't matter to you that the music is buried 4 levels deep


It's buried deeper than that, for me, because I also navigate my playlist folders, but since the entire point of having the playlist folders is to force the decision points further down into the menu tree, I'm hardly likely to complain. If it took 60 seconds each to drill into each tree level, it would be one thing, but at only a second or so, it's not a major problem. Since the music apps are all 3rd party SDKs, I don't see much of an option, either. It's likely at most the menu tree could possibly be reduced by 1 layer at the expense of greatly increasing the number of items on the root menus.



MickeS said:


> or that the Unbox interface looks and works like crap compared to the competitors.


You'll get no argument from me that the Unbox interface looks and works like crap, but the crappy and expensive content is a much bigger problem, if you ask me. The pathetic selection is an even bigger problem. Giving TiVo grief may not be any sort of solution even for the UI, however. Looking at the packets, Amazon Unbox is an HME app, and there is a good to excellent chance Amazon developed and maintains the Unbox UI, not TiVo. In short, you may be barking up the wrong tree. The server address doesn't seem to belong to either TiVo or Amazon.com , so it's possible it is neither TiVo nor Amazon.com, but a 3rd party contractor.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wblynch said:


> So I guess my $400 I paid for lifetime service above the cost of the TivoHD doesn't go towards improvements?
> 
> They already have my money so the heck with me? Is that what you're saying?
> 
> The more I read, the less I like Tivo as a company. I'd better stay off the internet before I learn to hate Tivo.


I think your pain point, and I see it as valid as your own pain point, is that the money from subs used for R&D does not go solely to what you want to see improved.

No checkbox system to say "Please use any funds from my sub that go to R&D for 
_ improved UI
_ faster speed
_ this or that feature

etc..

barring such an agreed upon transaction, TiVo instead reports to its Stockholders and employees. Employees want to saty in business and Stockholders would like to someday see a profit.

So TiVo reporting 
We do not forecast any appreciable new revenue gained by updating the UI but darn it, we have needed to for a while and it will just look so cool. 
will most likely just get management in trouble or if allowed to sink the money move further from a profit and closer to employees no longer having a company to work at. I suspect Microsoft suddenly proposing an update to XP to give it the col Vista or MAc look and feel would lead to the same kind of issues.

so they do indeed improve things, it is just where they forecast a good return on the investment as opposed to other criteria. That is just free market business.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think your pain point, and I see it as valid as your own pain point, is that the money from subs used for R&D does not go *solely to what you want to see improved*.


This is a fundamental thing that seems to bewilder a lot of consumers. It is almost like some of them think that paying the price, a price set based on the value of what is provided *now*, that the consumer is also buying ownership interest in the enterprise, and should be kowtowed to by its operatives. That's simply not the case.



ZeoTiVo said:


> ... TiVo instead reports to its Stockholders and employees.


And after recent scandals, you'd think everyone would be a lot more conscious of the responsibility corporations are *supposed* to be fulfilling, i.e., to their owners.



ZeoTiVo said:


> so they do indeed improve things, it is just where they forecast a good return on the investment as opposed to other criteria. That is just free market business.


:up:


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## wblynch (Aug 13, 2003)

Perhaps this is even one more reason that makes leasing a Cable/Satellite DVR more appealing. As a customer, it's probably better to pay month-to-month and just get a new unit from time-to-time with all the improvements and bells and whistles.

The purchase price of my Tivo with lifetime service is probably economically equivalent to leasing the provider's DVR for 4 or 5 years. But after 4 or 5 years, when my TivoHD is fully amortized, I may have missed out on 3 generations of improvements. Improvements in UI, performance and storage.

Include in that equation the elimination of stress induced by trying to make Cable Cards, SDV dongles (or whatever comes along), work with the Tivo.

It seems barely 4 years ago when I paid $1000 for an HD Tivo from direcTV and $6/$7 a month for Tivo service and now it's nearly worthless since it won't work with DirecTV's HD anymore. Today, DirecTV will install their own HD DVR for free and all I continue to pay is the $6 a month DVR fee.

It isn't even like the improvements that people are asking for are expensive to implement. Tiny things that make the user experience more enjoyable and less stressful go a long, long way to maintain brand loyalty.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> uummmm - that is exactly why they are making the series 4.
> 
> This argument is kind of like - why doesn't Microsoft improve the UI in XP. Or why doesn't Apple improve the UI on their older versions of the OS? Answer is the same as TiVo in general gave -- because they would make no money doing so and thus are more focused on improving by making the next generation of product.


Not being argumentative but do we know that the S4 will have a new ui?

S1, S2, DVDS2, Directivo, Directivo S2, HDirectTIVO, S3, THD all have the same basic interface- why do you think the S4 is going to be different? Seems tivo thinks consistency is a godd idea for them so why would they change the S4?

beyond that- tivo isn't MS- they dont sell updates from windows 3.1 to 2000 to xp, etc. They update their software on the EXISTING boxes a couple times a year.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> Not being argumentative but do we know that the S4 will have a new ui?


No.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Do we know that TiVo will be around long enough for the S4 to see the light of day?

No.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

wblynch said:


> It isn't even like the improvements that people are asking for are expensive to implement. Tiny things that make the user experience more enjoyable and less stressful go a long, long way to maintain brand loyalty.


That's subjective, one users "improvement" is another users "why bother".

Do you have some inside knowledge of what is and isn't easy to implement into TiVo's current code structure?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wblynch said:


> Perhaps this is even one more reason that makes leasing a Cable/Satellite DVR more appealing. As a customer, it's probably better to pay month-to-month and just get a new unit from time-to-time with all the improvements and bells and whistles.
> 
> The purchase price of my Tivo with lifetime service is probably economically equivalent to leasing the provider's DVR for 4 or 5 years. But after 4 or 5 years, when my TivoHD is fully amortized, I may have missed out on 3 generations of improvements. Improvements in UI, performance and storage.


 Cable company DVRs have gotten better - they are now called 'as good as a TiVo" by some even.  Umm what are these improvements that cable companies have done in UI, performance and storage over the last 4 years? Has TiVo parralled them in most ways? I think so, myself. Also the TiVo with its outdated UI is far simpler to set up recordings on then others, etc..



> Include in that equation the elimination of stress induced by trying to make Cable Cards, SDV dongles (or whatever comes along), work with the Tivo.


 that is a pain spot for TiVo being the outsider -s till worth that bit of pain to get features you SIMPLY DO NOT FIND ON CABLE CO OR DBS DVRs.


> It seems barely 4 years ago when I paid $1000 for an HD Tivo from direcTV and $6/$7 a month for Tivo service and now it's nearly worthless since it won't work with DirecTV's HD anymore. Today, DirecTV will install their own HD DVR for free and all I continue to pay is the $6 a month DVR fee.


 That is not a function of TiVo not wanting to improve thing but of DirecTV not wanting to partner with TiVo anymore. Many have said you have to "lease" DVRs from direct. I have no idea myself.



> It isn't even like the improvements that people are asking for are expensive to implement. Tiny things that make the user experience more enjoyable and less stressful go a long, long way to maintain brand loyalty.


 I could come up with a list of things that seem simple to improve my house - but they end up costing moeny and my time when taken together and the simple, inexpensive is gone.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> Not being argumentative but do we know that the S4 will have a new ui?


 do not know for sure but I do know from the descriptions of its high level functionality we have that it is not a matter of take the legacy code base and branch it off to start on this. The other models have been like that. Series 4 will be a rewrite from the ground up.


> S1, S2, DVDS2, Directivo, Directivo S2, HDirectTIVO, S3, THD all have the same basic interface- why do you think the S4 is going to be different? Seems tivo thinks consistency is a godd idea for them so why would they change the S4?
> 
> beyond that- tivo isn't MS- they dont sell updates from windows 3.1 to 2000 to xp, etc. They update their software on the EXISTING boxes a couple times a year.


but I was talking about the upgrade of various models of TiVo DVR just like you did just above.


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## wblynch (Aug 13, 2003)

Langree said:


> Do you have some inside knowledge of what is and isn't easy to implement into TiVo's current code structure?


I do not. But as a software designer and developer for the last 28 years, if it is NOT easy to implement then the Tivo code base must be total crap.

Listening to all the defensive blather, Tivo must be the biggest CAN'T DO company I've ever heard of.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Because, of course, you're the only software developer, and your professional judgment about software development is incontrovertible, just because you're you! 

Sounds to me like you're just a frustrated customer, rather than a software developer.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

the "look" of it might be a federal project for sure.

but there are some simple sort of fixes that could be done, that they have done similarly in the past. Things like reorganizing the menus.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

wblynch said:


> I do not. But as a software designer and developer for the last 28 years, if it is NOT easy to implement then the Tivo code base must be total crap.
> 
> Listening to all the defensive blather, Tivo must be the biggest CAN'T DO company I've ever heard of.


None of us have any idea about TiVo's development plans and priorities or the size of their development staff. So, for you to assume that "Tivo must be the biggest CAN'T DO company I've ever heard of." is simply ignorant.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

Fofer said:


> The NPL is *not* great, especially with large storage and many pages of recordings. Especially when I have copied lots of content from my computer (via TiVo GoBack.)
> 
> I want to be able to create my own folders and group things together the way I see fit (like, say, Movies.)
> 
> ...


When bicker and I agree on something, and you disagree, you can pretty much be sure you're wrong in some way. In this case, I think your expectations are different from what the device you purchased is attempting to do.

As a TiVo, NPL is awesome. Until last year I was using a 250GB DirecTiVo still on version 3. That's right, no folders, nothing fancy. Just 40 pages of stuff on my NPL. Between sort options and the utter speediness of the unit, it was fine. Far better than my S3 was before the relatively recent speed updates.

Between folders and the fixed interface speed, I'm again happy with the NPL.

Of course, if I were trying to use my TiVo as a media player for arbitrary video content, I might not be too pleased, but that's not what TiVo is meant to do, so yes, it will seem sucky. Sadly, there just aren't yet any good HD media players, aside from an HTPC running XBMC, which still isn't quite done yet for non-Xbox platforms, but when it is, it'll beat the pants off everything else out there. Hell, it already does.

I do think that some reorganization of the "Music, Photos, Products & More" menu would be great. There's just too much crap on one menu as it stands. A small refactoring is needed, not a wholesale overhaul. I like TiVo how it is, it works great for TV, which is what it's meant to do.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

Fofer said:


> And yet, a properly implemented UI can be powerful, fast, *and* slick. Elegant, integrated, and easy.
> 
> The current TiVo UI feels like it's tacked together with bubble gum and scotch tape.


Slick is for impressing your friends. Not for using the damn thing. To expand upon my mentioning XBMC, it has many options to look very slick. Thankfully, it also has options that allow it to be useful for browsing large amounts of content.

The Vudu box? Not so much on the large amounts of content. Movie posters/box art/whatever is pretty useless, IMO, except of course, for impressing your friends.

And as an aside, the start menu is about the only real change that Microsoft has made to their UI since Windows 3.0. Well, aside from a real "desktop," but that was also nearly 15 years ago now.

As a not-an-engineer-but-sometimes-programmer, I know very well I don't know the first thing about designing a good UI from scratch. I also know that most UI design is dog **** and is more related to looking good than improving the user experience. Usually, "discoverable," and "user friendly," really means that the UI is very user unfriendly, in that it wastes your time for years, while saving you minutes the first time you see it.

Great for Surface, not so great for a tool you plan to use extensively.

Take 'vi,' (or even wordstar!) for example. It's about as undiscoverable as humanly possible. However, once you spend a few hours learning it, you can write and edit at blinding speed. Every possible function is only a few keystrokes away, and your hands never have to leave the keyboard.

Wordperfect is the same way, now that they've brought back the WP 5.1 mode, but it gives you the option of wasting time (or discovering how to use some esoteric feature) should you desire. Much like gVim, actually.

As someone who watches people flip back and forth between text mode 5250 emulation and Windows/Word/Excel, it amazes me how much faster people can navigate the text mode interface. But once again, it's not as discoverable. (although IBM has done a good job of making it as discoverable as possible through their comprehensive catalog of possible commands and help files)

It seems that certain posters on this thread would like to make the UI more slick, which sadly almost always equates to less efficient. I'd rather spend my TiVo time watching TV (or a movie, or whatever else) than flipping about through some dastardly icon-based menu. Give me text, please, not some logo for the TV show that I may or may not even know, thanks. I tend to know the names of the show I wish to select.

Edited to add: Please, for the love of everything good and right with the world, let's not have TiVo put that awful video window in the corner of the menus. If I wanted to watch live TV, I'd press live TV. If I wanted to watch a recorded program, I'd be watching it, not fiddling with the menus. The last thing I want is to have a show spoiled by the box of intrusion. Maybe I just have a one track mind, but I hate hate hate that thing.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

wierdo said:


> Edited to add: Please, for the love of everything good and right with the world, let's not have TiVo put that awful video window in the corner of the menus. If I wanted to watch live TV, I'd press live TV. If I wanted to watch a recorded program, I'd be watching it, not fiddling with the menus. The last thing I want is to have a show spoiled by the box of intrusion. Maybe I just have a one track mind, but I hate hate hate that thing.


I really don't see an issue with a video window _if implemented correctly_.

There should never be any scenario where a menu is up and the video window is showing liveTV on a program that is recording (i.e. giving away the score before I could select the recording). On programs that are being recorded, the video window should be black with text that says, "select this program from Now Playing or press LiveTV to watch this program live."


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

wierdo said:


> When bicker and I agree on something, and you disagree, you can pretty much be sure you're wrong in some way. In this case, I think your expectations are different from what the device you purchased is attempting to do.
> 
> As a TiVo, NPL is awesome. Until last year I was using a 250GB DirecTiVo still on version 3. That's right, no folders, nothing fancy. Just 40 pages of stuff on my NPL. Between sort options and the utter speediness of the unit, it was fine. Far better than my S3 was before the relatively recent speed updates.


So now, I have 20+ pages of stuff on my NPL. See, to me, that's just bad UI. I think the TiVo UI was designed with limited storage in mind, to present a "revolving door" that is current content. But once we started upgrading our units (my S3 has a 750 GB drive,) it became feasible to save movies and entire seasons of shows for archiving... so the TiVo is more like a Video on Demand jukebox and less of a VCR replacement. With that, I need more and better ways to organize and sort my NPL. It's a pain to browse through 20+ pages. I need to be able to create manual as well smart folders, and be able to sort and filter more easily.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

Fofer said:


> So now, I have 20+ pages of stuff on my NPL. See, to me, that's just bad UI. I think the TiVo UI was designed with limited storage in mind, to present a "revolving door" that is current content. But once we started upgrading our units (my S3 has a 750 GB drive,) it became feasible to save movies and entire seasons of shows for archiving... so the TiVo is more like a Video on Demand jukebox and less of a VCR replacement. With that, I need more and better ways to organize and sort my NPL. It's a pain to browse through 20+ pages. I need to be able to create manual as well smart folders, and be able to sort and filter more easily.


Luckily, organizing the folders by the name of the show (or the wishlist) solves the problem pretty well, even on my 1TB S3. If there were no sorting options (or there were no quick shortcuts to them), it might be a problem for me.

The last thing I want is some slick Vudu style interface. That would just make things worse, not better. (I have that interface on my Xbox running XBMC..it doesn't scale)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fofer said:


> So now, I have 20+ pages of stuff on my NPL. See, to me, that's just bad UI. I think the TiVo UI was designed with limited storage in mind, to present a "revolving door" that is current content. But once we started upgrading our units (my S3 has a 750 GB drive,) it became feasible to save movies and entire seasons of shows for archiving... so the TiVo is more like a Video on Demand jukebox and less of a VCR replacement. With that, I need more and better ways to organize and sort my NPL. It's a pain to browse through 20+ pages. I need to be able to create manual as well smart folders, and be able to sort and filter more easily.


I used to be a proponent of user created folders, but I'm pretty OK with the way it's done now.

But I wish TiVo would listen to me and make their interface work with T9 word style input from the remote control keypad.  It should be based on the content you have in the menu you are in. So if you have hundreds or thousands of recordings and want to watch "So you think you can dance" you shouldn't have to scroll down to it, you should just be able to press 7(s)6(o)9 and so on (in this case) on the remote, and it should jump to that recording...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i think the tivo npl is getting a bit long - you can buy a tivo S3 with 250gb drive and put an officially sanctioned 500gb drive on it.

Even with groups by series with most set at the defeult keep up to 5- there's pages and pages and pages to scroll through.

To me it's not so bad at allusing the skip button to jump to the top or bottom and then page up/down. But I can see the point it would be nicer to be "updated" although I'm not sure how the hec to update that bit. (i'm not a UI designer though so not my job...). 
One interesting idea there is my wife said it would be nice if like many computer based lists you could type the first letter somehow and it would go to that. Note really doable with the current remote (T9 is an interesting idea but without the letters already stenciled on the keys no idea how to implement that on current machines). But there's an interesting gizmodo article about an interview with the guy that runs the remote design department at tivo. He said they actually have thought about a treo/blackberry type keyboard on new remotes becasue of all the new features that would be helpd with test entry like that. (also mentioned possibility of a touchscreen....)

I guess maybe they could put a slider bar on the side with the letters a-z vertically and somehow you could move to the slider bar and go to the letter and it would narrow results (there's some windows mobile cell phones that do something like that with contacts). But you would need to add a step to "focus" on the slider bar and not sure haven to hit down or up 10-12 times is such a big improvement on page up / page down from the main list.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

also- for content that IS movable. Doesn't the newest desktop plus software (I know you have to pay...) allow nested browsable folders set up on the pc?

Not sure- not a big user of the tivo desktop really...


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## tluxon (Feb 28, 2002)

wierdo said:


> ...Please, for the love of everything good and right with the world, let's not have TiVo put that awful video window in the corner of the menus. If I wanted to watch live TV, I'd press live TV. If I wanted to watch a recorded program, I'd be watching it, not fiddling with the menus. The last thing I want is to have a show spoiled by the box of intrusion. Maybe I just have a one track mind, but I hate hate hate that thing.


Huh?? Isn't the "box of intrusion" what we have right now? I can't tell you how many times I was watching an NBA playoff game and decided to check the channel guide for other upcoming sporting events I might want to see. Guess what happened virtually every time? That's right - the tuner was tuned to the network the game was on and I was popped out to LIVE TV! (yes, it's live TV that's playing right behind the guide whenever I pop it open) - grrrrrr!

That "awful video window in the corner" would've kept the game playing at the point I was at in the recording (I can pause if I don't want to miss a play) instead of popping me out to the post-game show.

I think you have it backwards.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> i think the tivo npl is getting a bit long - you can buy a tivo S3 with 250gb drive and put an officially sanctioned 500gb drive on it.
> 
> Even with groups by series with most set at the defeult keep up to 5- there's pages and pages and pages to scroll through.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree the NPL is getting way to long. I have the S3 with the 500GB Expander. I do use groups. But even with groups, I counted it today. I have to hit channel down 17 times to reach the bottom of the NPL. Most all of the short videos I have transfered, such as music videos and short tv clips from bands I like are in folders as well made from tivo desktop plus, the only thing I don't like about the auto transfer to folder thing though, is for ever reason that video now becomes copy protected, and can't be transfered to another tivo or back to your pc.

For longer NPL's your suggestion makes a whole lot of since. I also wish there was a short cut to the "My Computer" transfer link at the bottom.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

LoREvanescence said:


> ...
> 
> For longer NPL's your suggestion makes a whole lot of since. I also wish there was a short cut to the "My Computer" transfer link at the bottom.


do you know that you can skip to the very end of the list with just one button press? just hit the skip forward button on the remote and the list goes to the very end- then you are just a few up/down presses from the computer link. (and also the suggestions folder, other tivo links, and on HD units the HD folder)


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> do you know that you can skip to the very end of the list with just one button press? just hit the skip forward button on the remote and the list goes to the very end- then you are just a few up/down presses from the computer link. (and also the suggestions folder, other tivo links, and on HD units the HD folder)


No, I did not know that, thaks:up:

And if you hit it again it brings you back to the top, even better:up::up:


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

yep-

that shortcut and page up/down make even a crazy large list not so bad to deal with. (I think it works anyplace there is a list like suggestions, season pass list, todo list, etc) 

you can get to most places on a big (I have stock 250 plus 750 external drives in my 2 series 3's) now playing list with like 10 button presses or less- not exactly direct access but it's not horrific.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

if I sort by date, then how would the text entry work?
need a date entry for those that sort that way.

I use to sort by date but then I had a stock drive only and wanted to make sure I watched things most in danger of being deleted for space.

Once I put in the large drive I sort by name and would make good use of a text entry that would jump to the letter(s) entered. It would have to be letters entered on remote though. I would decidedly not want another on screen text entry widget.


I would also like a remote that works like a Wii controller in that I could point on the screen and grab and do things. then an on screen slider would be cool or the on screen text entry widgets would not be so bad.


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## aus1ander (Sep 17, 2004)

I just found this thread and I'm glad others are also hoping TiVo comes up with a refreshed look for TiVo. I truly believe TiVo needs to spruce up their HD look to compete with Apple TV, PS3, Xbox 360, and cable company DVRs who are all venturing into that "all-in-one" set top box for high definition.

I believe the innards of TiVo are still truly great; season passes, wishlists, suggestions, transfering programs, etc. But in the end, its like us TiVo users are still running Windows 95 (or Mac OS 9.0) when the rest of the world is on XP (or Mac OS X). If Microsoft can totally reinvent the Xbox 360 interface for this fall, why can't TiVo aim at reinventing their own UI (which still looks the same as the original TiVos from the late 1990s) to appeal to a broader base?

I think TiVo needs to look at Apple as model, think of their design as more artistic and efficient than the "don't fix it if it aint broke" mentality, and be innovative in the experience than just the "tools". There is no reason a HD TiVo should have 4:3 low res menus running on separate software (its totally obvious that cool innovations like Swivel Search are totally hampered on the HD by its low-resolution implementation and forcing the user to wait while it loads Java).

Honestly, if Apple comes out with a standalone DVR on their Apple TV platform, I might just jump ship after being loyal to TiVo for over 8 years.

EDIT: I actually wonder if TiVo is so small that it couldn't even redesign the UI if it wanted to. Maybe they just don't have the manpower to do it...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

aus1ander said:


> EDIT: I actually wonder if TiVo is so small that it couldn't even redesign the UI if it wanted to. Maybe they just don't have the manpower to do it...


I definitely think that's one of the major reasons for the lack of UI development. They have limited resources, and they have to focus on what will give the best immediate return on their investments. That's why there is so much focus on advertising and purchases over the Internet right now.

They're not Apple or Microsoft, both of which probably have more people devoted just to the sound schemes of their OSs, than there are employees in the entire organization of TiVo.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

Well, just adding to this thread, already posted this in the 9.4 thread.

TiVo did make a slight UI Change, at least in appearance of a couple things. 

The banners that say searching for signal and please wait while a moment while the video loads have changed.

They are now 3D, Black and have glassy effect to them. They are also transparent do you and see the video through them, which looks kind of neat=) The TiVo guy also now glows on them.

Not much for changes, but they are good eye candy.

This new look is also used on playing groups, for example video 3 of 12 will show over the first few moments of video 3. Or the first video will tell you a group is playing. This look is also used on the message box that warns you that you are about to delete an entire group of videos as well I believe. 

Not much to report for UI, but it does show they are working on it a little.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

I basically don't like TiVo's GUI but TiVo is the only game in town for a DVR not supplied by a cable/satellite company.

I'll have to see how Echostar's announced OTA DVR works and how much it costs and also check out Comcast's newest DVR for $13.95 monthly with no commitment. I like Comcast's GUI and EPG better than TiVo's and don't need TiVo's 'more than DVR' features. 

It's unlikely that TiVo will change because a few Forum posters complain.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> I'll have to see how Echostar's announced OTA DVR works and how much it costs


The problem is that as time has gone on, they've said *less* about the TR-50, instead of *more* about it. On another forum, today, someone posted the following quote from an email from them: "Our apologies, but we do not know about when or where it will be available. Thank you for contacting EchoStar."


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## Brad Bishop (Sep 11, 2001)

Didn't read all the messages in the thread. My 2 cents:

I don't care if they gloss it up with new graphics once in a while.

I'd prefer that they make an update so that in widescreen mode the interface isn't stretched but the real estate actually used.

Biggest thing (bigger than updating it): Don't screw it up.

I'm not a fan of the endless little toys they toss in (like the Yahoo! stuff that's still there, never worked for me, and, last I checked, has been discontinued.) I don't want to play pirate-tic-tac-toe or anything else. I want the silly thing to act as a decent interface to my TV and recordings. That's primary.

I could easily see them making it newer and better and basically turning it into the cellphone market where you can get an phone that does everything you'd ever want except make a regular phone call or text (SMS) reliably. That's dumb. Drives me nuts.

I'd be happier if they removed some of the clutter.

Oh, I kind of agree on doing something about the NPL, though. it's not hard for it to get unmanageable. If you build up a huge list of something (TiVo Suggestions or maybe you're saving your favorite program) it can be a huge pain to delete. I think I'd like to delete a group, TiVo queue it up and take care of it without bothering me.

Real useful things are more important to me the glitzy graphics but I can definitely see where that would erode it's marketability over time.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Brad Bishop said:


> ...I think I'd like to delete a group, TiVo queue it up and take care of it without bothering me.
> ....


diodnt get 9.4 yet- eh?


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

From the current thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=406079



mr.unnatural said:


> ...I actually preferred the ReplayTV UI better than Tivo's...





scandia101 said:


> ...You and the 7 or 8 other RTV subscribers preferred the RTV UI. If it weren't so sad, I'd laugh.


ReplayTV's EPG accesses program searches more conveniently than TiVo's accessing a search only through TiVo Central.

ReplayTV's grid style EPG is prettier than TiVo's Live Guide and almost as comprehensive. Unfortunately TiVo's Grid style Guide is perhaps the least useful grid style display.

TiVo has been criticised for looking pretty and criticised for not looking pretty:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5615739#post5615739

Being pretty isn't really TiVo's thing; being TiVo-y is closer to being the DVR with more TV data search capabilities than any other. Still, unless TiVo is intentionally minimizing the EPG's usefulness, pretty or not, TiVo can improve it's EPG.


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## amoldd (Aug 9, 2008)

This thread is already too long, but i want to throw out this idea about using the number keys on remote for typing letters (just like on a cell phone) to avoid the laborious typing using the onscreen key display.
This may have been considered by Tivo before, but it will surely make it easy to create wishlists etc. faster.


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## rckstrang (Jul 8, 2008)

amoldd said:


> This thread is already too long, but i want to throw out this idea about using the number keys on remote for typing letters (just like on a cell phone) to avoid the laborious typing using the onscreen key display.
> This may have been considered by Tivo before, but it will surely make it easy to create wishlists etc. faster.


You must be a person that uses a phone for text messaging. That wouldn't work for me.

I was thinking that I use to be able to hook up a keyboard and type in the titles of shows, and I thought maybe that was Direct TV but my wife told me that was a DVD player I still have that holds 700 DVD's. It's sitting in my closet waiting for me to fix it or do something with it.

But that wouldn't be a bad idea. You could maybe have a wireless keyboard and have a USB connection on the front. Then just type in what you are looking for. Certainly easier then using the remote now.

FWIW that DVD player was a pain. If something got moved for whatever reason it could really mess things up. I spent 700.00 on that thing, I wouldn't do it again.


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## shamuslarue (Sep 1, 2006)

bluetooth usb adapter, bluetooth keyboard.. dump the weak letter select UI -come on M, wake up!


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## rckstrang (Jul 8, 2008)

shamuslarue said:


> bluetooth usb adapter, bluetooth keyboard.. dump the weak letter select UI -come on M, wake up!


Yeah, I can't see why they haven't done that since it's available on all other DVR's!

You make it sound like it's just so simple to do. And even though I agree that the UI should be updated by now it still beats the pants off anything else that's out there.

I wonder if it would be possible to have 2 M cards in a TiVo HD and record 4 channels?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

amoldd said:


> This thread is already too long, but i want to throw out this idea about using the number keys on remote for typing letters (just like on a cell phone) to avoid the laborious typing using the onscreen key display.
> This may have been considered by Tivo before, but it will surely make it easy to create wishlists etc. faster.


I suggested that in a separate thread, and earlier in this thread too. I agree, it's getting to be a must for TiVo to implement some way of doing better text input. External keyboard would be great, but cumbersome to use sitting on the TV couch.

Cell-phone type text input would require no new hardware and be a great complement to a real keyboard.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

rckstrang said:


> I used to be able to hook up a keyboard and type in the titles of shows, and I thought maybe that was Direct TV but my wife told me that was a DVD player I still have that holds 700 DVD's. It's sitting in my closet waiting for me to fix it or do something with it.
> 
> But that wouldn't be a bad idea. You could maybe have a wireless keyboard...


Chalk another one up to Dish/ReplayTV! Dish's original Dishplayer (the one everyone loved to hate) used a WEBTV wireless keyboard. That same keyboard, available on eBay cheap, can be used with no modifications to control a ReplayTV.

(It's too bad DirecTV bought ReplayTV's patents. If Dish/Echostar had them they could have given TiVo competition which would have provided incentives for TiVo to bring some of these bright ideas to reality.)


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## rckstrang (Jul 8, 2008)

fallingwater said:


> Chalk another one up to Dish/ReplayTV! Dish's original Dishplayer (the one everyone loved to hate) used a WEBTV wireless keyboard. That same keyboard, available on eBay cheap, can be used with no modifications to control a ReplayTV.
> 
> (It's too bad DirecTV bought ReplayTV's patents. If Dish/Echostar had them they could have given TiVo competition which would have provided incentives for TiVo to bring some of these bright ideas to reality.)


Last I heard TiVo was successfully suing Dish for stealing their copyrights.

Anyway shamuslarue had a good point. It would use a popular technology that really is not that expensive to implement.

I think.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

rckstrang said:


> You must be a person that uses a phone for text messaging. That wouldn't work for me.


+1. Only someone who was already highly acclimated to the text messaging interface would regard it as intuitive or fast.

In case I haven't mentioned it already, if you're looking for easier keyboard input, you might try the TiVo Remote program in my sig.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

rckstrang said:


> Last I heard TiVo was successfully suing Dish for stealing their copyrights.


True. Perhaps they shoulda' stole ReplayTV's patents instead? 

Seriously, why are Dish's patents (not copyrights, I think) in violation of TiVo's when nobody else's are? Why aren't ReplayTV's? Or is Dish (Echostar) the only one of several potential violators which was sued because it has deep pockets?

TiVo creates features which directly add to its bottom line one way or another but ignores others which wouldn't because while they'd improve TiVo's DVR they'd cost more to develop than the revenue they'd generate.

I doubt that Dish will ultimately be enjoined from deploying its version of DVRs. Hopefully a settlement will be reached which infuses TiVo with a financial windfall for licensing its patents while keeping Echostar as a competitor. A DVR like Dish's proposed OTA only TR-50 would provide useful competition.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

fallingwater said:


> A DVR like Dish's proposed OTA only TR-50 would provide useful competition.


I agree that it would be great for end users for TiVo to have real competition in the 3rd party DVR market.

A USB/bluetooth keyboard could be implemented and let us all use the search and you tube features of TiVo far more fully. heck make it a TiVo branded keyboard.
I have heard that TiVo was looking at a remote with text entry capability but have never heard any details about it.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have heard that TiVo was looking at a remote with text entry capability but have never heard any details about it.


Yeah, wasn't that in the article about the history of the TiVo Remote? I remember reading it somewhere. They asked TiVo about a possible Keyboard and TiVo admitted they were looking at the idea but no further information was given.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

LoREvanescence said:


> Yeah, wasn't that in the article about the history of the TiVo Remote? I remember reading it somewhere. They asked TiVo about a possible Keyboard and TiVo admitted they were looking at the idea but no further information was given.


that was it.  but nothing else sinc 
I would be happy to buy one at a store or online fromTiVo if they made it available.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

From my experience, about 90% of the people who say they don't like the TiVo interface are really talking about the program guide and the lack of a picture window in the menus. They don't care for the "Tivo-style" guide and they want a grid guide with picture window and record indicators like they had with cable or satelite. And they want a picture window in the menus, again like they had with cable or satellite.

If TiVo were to implement a highly-responsive version of the Comcast TiVo guide (shown below) -- using full 16:9 on the HD models -- I think you'd hear quite a different tune from many folks about the interface.









Note picture window, season pass indicators, and genre highlighting.









Updated ToDo list with clearer presentation of what will and won't record.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

true, and I do like the UI of the comcast box. I would like the record indicators and the Picture window I could care less about, but it does not bug me that it is there. 

But many people who said they like the TiVo UI also said they don't want to see or hear what they are watching while in the menu's. So it's a hard call to make. 

The new Nero TiVo thing seems to use a version of the Comcast Guide UI, so I don't think its that far out of the question that there might be a possibility tivo pushes it on to us.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> From my experience, about 90% of the people who say they don't like the TiVo interface are really talking about the program guide and the lack of a picture window in the menus. They don't care for the "Tivo-style" guide and they want a grid guide with picture window and record indicators like they had with cable or satelite. And they want a picture window in the menus, again like they had with cable or satellite.


True, the weakest link is the grid guide.

It's gotten MUCH better. Faster. A touch of a button now lets you skip ahead day by day (FINALLY!).


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> From my experience, about 90% of the people who say they don't like the TiVo interface are really talking about the program guide and the lack of a picture window in the menus. They don't care for the "Tivo-style" guide and they want a grid guide with picture window and record indicators like they had with cable or satelite. And they want a picture window in the menus, again like they had with cable or satellite.
> 
> If TiVo were to implement a highly-responsive version of the Comcast TiVo guide (shown below) -- using full 16:9 on the HD models -- I think you'd hear quite a different tune from many folks about the interface.
> 
> ...





LoREvanescence said:


> ...I do like the UI of the comcast box. I would like the record indicators and the Picture window I could care less about, but it does not bug me that it is there.
> 
> But many people who said they like the TiVo UI also said they don't want to see or hear what they are watching while in the menu's. So it's a hard call to make.


Comcast's TiVo based DVR is reported not to work nearly as well as it looks and doesn't have many TiVo capabilities but it costs more than Comcast's standard DVR! In selected locations Comcast's DVR offers the choice between iGuide and TiVo's GUI but isn't a real competitor to TiVo itself.

That's the problem. TiVo has little incentive to upgrade its GUI without real competition. A viewer has few other options short of a PC based DVR. TiVo would already offer an updated GUI with user selectable default for showing or pausing what's currently playing if doing so would result in more sales.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> Comcast's TiVo based DVR is reported not to work nearly as well


My understanding is that the Comcast TiVo software works much better now, i.e. most of the issues were eliminated in the past 4-6 weeks. Reviews still indicate that it is sluggish, which TiVo is supposedly working to address.

That said, obviously any new / improved UI must be stable and responsive.


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## rckstrang (Jul 8, 2008)

wmcbrine said:


> In case I haven't mentioned it already, if you're looking for easier keyboard input, *you might try the TiVo Remote program *in my sig.


I just saw your post and I've gotten a couple of good apps since I joined this forum so I did click on your signature.

Have you got one for PC?

If I had my way about it I'd love to get a Mac but from what I see TiVo builds almost everything for PC and I don't know how well Mac works with PC these days. My computer is getting old but as far as processors go it seems that there hasn't been a great deal of change in the last few years. I have a Pentium D, are Mac processors faster? I've always liked Macs but I was forced into PC's years ago.

But since I do use pyTiVo maybe that's the way for me to go. Something to think about.

I've got some time today. Maybe I'll research Mac's and networking PC's, etc. I've got 3 computers networked and my TiVo HD plus the wife has a lap top PC that uses the wireless network.

Sorry, getting way off topic.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

rckstrang said:


> I just saw your post and I've gotten a couple of good apps since I joined this forum so I did click on your signature.
> 
> Have you got one for PC?
> 
> ...


It's cross-platform: it'll run on the Mac, Windows, and Linux platforms (as well as other platforms that can run Python). The post wmcbrine's sig links to just happens to mention a mac-related update in the first sentence.

You will need to have Python installed. It's available at http://www.python.org/download/releases/


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