# Roamio Pro/Amazon Download issues (again)



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Over the past several years, Tivo performance in downloading Amazon Instant Video has been extremely variable. On both Roamio and Premier hardware, sometimes a normal HD movie would download quickly and without incident. Other times, the download would be totally unsuccessful in this way:

You use the Tivo app on the Premier/Roamio, search for and select the content on Amazon, select the HD variation, tell it you want to "purchase the rental", enter your pin, etc. You get an email from Amazon confirming and thanking you. After a bit, the blue light comes on, and the Tivo "seems" to be downloading. However, when it's still on hours later you check, and it says that (for example) after four hours, a total of 44 seconds of content has downloaded.

I've done every possible troubleshooting I can think of. I've completely shut down my entire network and all Tivos. Router/Switch, all Tivos unplugged, etc. Bring up the Router, then in order power up the other devices. I'm on FiOS, with a 50/50 connection. I have zero issues with any other device beyond the Tivos. My tested internet speed and latency are both extremely good - to the specific ports that the Tivos are plugged into. All Tivos connected via Ethernet. 

I'm getting more and more convinced that Tivo simply isn't up to the task of IP delivered content, as while some of their support staff as recently as this past Friday acknowledged known issues with this, there has been no improvement to speak of. It works sometimes and then it just doesn't work. 

I do not believe this is Amazon. If we all remember, when you "rent" or "buy" content from Amazon through your Tivo, it is my understanding that all content is effectively proxied through the Tivo system. Meaning that there is no direct connection (socket or other) between your Tivo and Amazon. Other devices - at the exact same time and the exact same location - have no issues with Amazon audio or video services. This includes both streaming (which of course, the Tivo cannot do) and download services. I'm personally of the opinion that the problem has to do with how Tivo is trying to proxy the content delivery, but have no real data to support this other than the use cases which eliminate either my network, my internet connection, or general Amazon audio video is the issue - pretty much leaving Tivo as the last edge on Occam's Razor.

Any comment or relevant information about this? In my area, Verizon is releasing new "home" equipment that compares better with Tivo than previous equipment (though my original Verizon DVR has never failed, and multiple Tivos have....). Since I can't currently use my Minis for Amazon content whatsoever, and since my Roamios are extremely unreliable in this regard, combined with some newer defects I'm dealing with (audio/video sync issues with mini, degraded playback performance on Roamios if they happen to be downloading IP delivered content) I'm starting to think about next steps. Having lifetime on all my equipment doesn't really give Tivo any reason to focus on fixing these issues, IMHO.


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## takeagabu (Oct 7, 2007)

I haven't used this app in years but I had some great and then some terrible experiences. At one point my premiere was unable to download anything and it took a conference call between tivo, amazon, and me to fix the issue.

Granted, it looks like we are in for a whole redesigned app any minute now (that may just rely on streaming) so this all may be moot very soon.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

We are getting a new amazon app (from amazon) soon. Not sure how much energy I would spend on the old app as it is throwaway at this point. Rumor is that it will include Prime streaming as well.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Thanks. I read on here that there was apparently something coming, but that it had been released too early and didn't work. Given the problems I've typically experienced in streaming Netflix through Tivo, I'm not too excited. I typically experience FAR FAR FAR better performance streaming Netflix through Roku. I'm convinced this is not an "app" issue, but is an issue where anything that is being proxied through Tivo is at risk for sub-standard performance. 

I have no idea of how they are architected, but even the TiVo.com site is pretty poor performing in terms of page load times, etc. They could be hosted on entirely different architectures, and different datacenters, etc - however the point is that if they're not effectively managing performance on Tivo.com, I'm not enthusiastic that the new app will be enabled to have reliable performance either.

Let's keep our fingers crossed. Who knows - maybe this time something will work....


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

Its so easy just to get a Roku. It works great and gives you a lot more sources of programming. I don't use either Amazon or Netflix on Tivo. I turn to Roku.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

jcaudle said:


> Its so easy just to get a Roku. It works great and gives you a lot more sources of programming. I don't use either Amazon or Netflix on Tivo. I turn to Roku.


The problem is multi-factored.

First of all, it's a function that Tivo advertises (even on their retail boxes) and it should work.

Second, there are limited connections for AV systems.

Third, the Roku does not have the audio out capability of the Tivo (or other devices)

Fourth, if Tivo can't get this straight and continues to have issues with pretty much anything other than straight cablecard delivered content, I am skeptical about their future.

I appreciate it, but don't expect to have to pay yet another $89 or so per viewing location to do something that the Roamio Pro is supposed to do.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

An update - not that it's worth anything....

Since I had been attempting to do this strictly through the Tivo UI, I decided just for kicks to try and rent the Amazon content from Amazon via my laptop, and have it "pushed" to the Roamio Pro. Completed the rental, got the same email from Amazon, a bit later the blue light came on, but after about 10 minutes a total of 44 seconds of content had downloaded (according to the Roamio). 

Went and ran another speed and latency test on my internet connection and looked at internal latency. Zero issues. Jumped on a Roku in a different room (connected via wireless and not even Ethernet) and no issues whatsoever streaming in HD. Went to a PC, and ran a test download of just over 800mb. Completely extremely quickly. Went back to the Tivo, and after I had done all of that, the total amount downloaded was 1 min 6 seconds of content. Used that Roamio (while downloading still in theory going on) and went to YouTube. No issues viewing whatever Youtube content I wanted. No buffering, nothing. Went back several minutes later and the Roamio showed a total of 1min 26 sec total downloaded. Went back to the Roku (different room, but WiFi, which is on the same connection, however) and went to Amazon. Streamed a bunch of different content - no issues, no buffering, no problems.

I think this pretty much establishes it is not the app, it is not my internal network, it is not my internet connection and it is extremely unlikely that it is Amazon. Anybody have a different perspective? I'm at wits end. It's bad enough that the Minis are currently incapable of any Amazon utilization whatsoever. But now, none of my Tivo centric rooms have any Amazon access whatsoever. I have two Rokus but they have a very different purpose. If I'm going to need to start depending on them as primary, it really changes the value proposition for me. Beyond even that - if the traffic performance from Amazon through Tivo to any Tivo device is going to be as lethargic and horribly performing as what I'm consistently seeing now, streaming will be absolutely worthless as it would do nothing but show a few seconds of content, followed by a long period of waiting while it buffers, followed by a few seconds of content, and repeat for several days until you were able to complete watching one title.


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## takeagabu (Oct 7, 2007)

Amazon customer service might be able to do things on the back end. (which is what ended up fixing my issue)

Did you try unlinking the box to your amazon account and then redoing it?


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

Anytime I buy a download movie from Amazon it starts within a few minutes and it plays fine.

So a blanket statement condemning Amazon or Tivo sounds like a local issue.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

donnoh said:


> Anytime I buy a download movie from Amazon it starts within a few minutes and it plays fine.
> 
> So a blanket statement condemning Amazon or Tivo sounds like a local issue.


Sorry, but I do not agree. I am not blaming Amazon. I am blaming Tivo. I seem to have eliminated all internal issues. No other services are affected. It happens on multiple Tivo Roamio Pros. All are configured exactly down to the letter exactly as they are supposed to be. It is a closed system.

In the past, sometimes it worked excellent (within its specifications - meaning the minis have always been excluded from any of this functionality). In the past at other times it failed miserably. At this point, for the past week it has been utterly broken. At this point, now fully 1 hour 35 minutes from when I received the email from Amazon that I had rented the content, I have downloaded 8 minutes of the actual content. At the current rate, it would take fully 36 hours to download that single movie.

I'm unsure as to exactly who you would blame? We have eliminated internal network, internet connection (unless there is something very proprietary going on specific to the connection only through the route to the hosting infrastructure used by Tivo to proxy the content) and the "individual" device, (unless we can somehow assume that all Tivo devices in this location have failed in the same exact fashion at the same exact time).

I'd love to hear some other ideas beyond just not blaming Tivo.....


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

takeagabu said:


> Amazon customer service might be able to do things on the back end. (which is what ended up fixing my issue)
> 
> Did you try unlinking the box to your amazon account and then redoing it?


I've called Amazon each and every time for a refund. They are getting tired of hearing from me. There was nothing they could do, as the billing, ordering, and download actually "start". I've had them stop and restart it, which resulted in the exact same thing.

I didn't try unlinking. Maybe I'll try that as a last ditch effort. Most of the issues I've read about related to relinking had to do with not even being able to order or the download not even started.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I tried delinking and relinking, and have been working with Amazon support for the last 40 minutes. No joy. We ran some tests, tried a few things, but the Amazon rep frankly recommended using a different device, as he indicated consistent performance issues with Amazon Download on Tivo devices. I realize that they are always going to look skeptically at Tivo, but in this case it sure seems as though where there is smoke.....


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## andrewket (Jan 27, 2002)

The FireTV is well worth $99. It does Amazon video as well as Netflix. Or a roku (I prefer the fire.) Tivo for whatever reason has a terrible customer experience with these services. 

Have you ever tried downloading a show from the TiVo to your iOS device? It's terribly slow as well.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

andrewket said:


> The FireTV is well worth $99. It does Amazon video as well as Netflix. Or a roku (I prefer the fire.) Tivo for whatever reason has a terrible customer experience with these services.
> 
> Have you ever tried downloading a show from the TiVo to your iOS device? It's terribly slow as well.


I have tried downloading shows to my iPad from a Tivo a number of times, but it's been a while for the exact reason you mention. Performance is awful - however even that slow performance it light years faster than what I'm experiencing between Tivo and Amazon. You could at least let it run overnight and it would usually download a couple hour long shows. Currently, it would take over 40 hours to download a single movie from Amazon. Pathetic is actually giving it a better review than it deserves.

I really don't want to have to get yet another device. I'm out of ports, and more importantly, I really want to be able to retain the surround sound, so that means the Amazon Fire is the only choice - however I would like HBO Go - which is the one thing the Fire cannot do. But beyond that, it really ticks me off that (again) I'm looking to find workarounds and spend more money to do something that the Tivo product is advertised to do out of the box.

My customer service experience on Friday was reasonably good, in that I got somebody who actually seemed to know what they were talking about and was honest. My experience Sunday was worthless - with the only thing it did was (in theory, as there is no way to validate) log the issue (again). My experience last night was worse than worthless - with a completely clueless CSR insisting that we disregard all notes for the existing ticket, and start from scratch. I'm guessing she knew what I thought of her "service" as that one was the only one that I did not get an email asking for my support satisfaction.

I am also wondering what software changes may have been made, as there is something else I was seeing. Before last week, on the odd occasion that I was able to download Amazon content successfully, I noticed recently that if I tried playback of previously recorded content at the same time that the Roamio was still downloading from Amazon, the Tivo performance was unacceptable. It was choppy and skippy. At the very moment that the Tivo stopped recording, the playback (of the exact same content) would go back to normal.


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## Ieolus (Oct 20, 2006)

For whatever it's worth I would try waiting until the new app before you do anything drastic.


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## JimPa (Oct 25, 2006)

wmhjr said:


> Sorry, but I do not agree. I am not blaming Amazon. I am blaming Tivo. I seem to have eliminated all internal issues. No other services are affected. It happens on multiple Tivo Roamio Pros. All are configured exactly down to the letter exactly as they are supposed to be. It is a closed system.
> 
> In the past, sometimes it worked excellent (within its specifications - meaning the minis have always been excluded from any of this functionality). In the past at other times it failed miserably. At this point, for the past week it has been utterly broken. At this point, now fully 1 hour 35 minutes from when I received the email from Amazon that I had rented the content, I have downloaded 8 minutes of the actual content. At the current rate, it would take fully 36 hours to download that single movie.
> 
> ...


After reading your post, I thought I'd check to see if my Roameo basic had any problems downloading and playing content from Amazon. It appears to be working fine. My network is that a modem is hooked up to a Linksys wireless router, then hard wired to a switch, then the Tivo.

After reading the thread about people having issues with the Tivo mini and seeing how some have some very crowded home networks, I can't help but think that your problems may be network related. A simple approach might be to hook up your Tivo directly to your modem, effectively bypassing any home network. If it works fine, then your problem would have to be home network related.

In any event, best of luck working this out.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

JimPa said:


> After reading your post, I thought I'd check to see if my Roameo basic had any problems downloading and playing content from Amazon. It appears to be working fine. My network is that a modem is hooked up to a Linksys wireless router, then hard wired to a switch, then the Tivo.
> 
> After reading the thread about people having issues with the Tivo mini and seeing how some have some very crowded home networks, I can't help but think that your problems may be network related. A simple approach might be to hook up your Tivo directly to your modem, effectively bypassing any home network. If it works fine, then your problem would have to be home network related.
> 
> In any event, best of luck working this out.


Appreciate the effort, but not a chance that it's due to "crowded home networks". And not a chance in any universe that it's due to issues with my network. That idea has been investigated thoroughly and totally disproven. Here are some factoids which prove that the issue cannot under any circumstances be due to internal (home) network issues.

1) Biggest reason that totally disproves home network issues is the fact that as the last ditch troubleshooting step (for network) I connected the Roamios each directly to the Verizon FiOS router. Both of the Roamios - using tested and perfectly good Ethernet patch cables - connected directly to different switch ports on that router. And in that configuration, the problem manifested itself in exactly the same way with the exact same symptoms. No other devices, BTW, connected to the Verizon FiOS router at that time, and prior to running the test (twice) the router was completely shut down, unplugged for 10 minutes, and then restarted.

2) There is no such thing as a "very crowded" network. There are IEEE standards for the protocols used on a network, and none of them are effected by "crowding". If your network is properly architected and implemented, it does not make any difference how many internal devices are on your home network. In fact, unless you're doing some thing really really really (multiply that about a thousand times) crazy, the bottleneck for internet connectivity will mathematically be the gateway - in this case, it will be your gateway to the net, routing performance limitations, and whatever QoS, metering, or capacity restrictions on the source. It will NOT be capacity in your internal home network for those devices connected via Ethernet.

3) Network performance can easily be measured in terms of things like latency, hops, packet loss, retries, throughput. In my case, during tests and troubleshooting, I'm not seeing either packet loss or retries (remember, this is not streaming, it's download, so....) nor am I seeing more than a few internal hops from the gateway to the Tivo, and I'm seeing very fast performance in terms of very low latency.

4) ALL - and I do mean ALL - other internet/network related services have zero issues. No other issues. Videoconferencing, other very large downloads, IP Telephony, Video streaming using Roku, even YouTube on the Roamios themselves.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

BTW, I have lost any remaining patience I had with Tivo and have ordered my first Amazon Fire TV. I'm going to give it a try, as it's the only option that has optical out for audio, which is necessary in at least one of my locations. Should it work, the Tivos will be relegated to FiOS only services, which to be honest is the second step closer to cutting the cord. I already have a Roku. I just don't see Tivo miraculously developing world class development capability around IP delivered services anytime soon - if ever.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Last night I tried downloading the free pilot of Madam Secretary from Amazon on my Roamio Pro and Roamio Basic. It started downloading within a couple of minutes. But when I looked again an hour later the light was still blue. After two hours it was still Blue so I canceled the download. It showed that it only had ten minutes of the show and I couldn't even watch any of it because the TiVo said it was too slow. The transfer history showed a download rate of .47Mb/s. But even that doesn't sound right. But for whatever reason I had issues.

So I just streamed it from Vudu in 3 Bar HDX from my Sony BD player and had zero issues. I had not tried downloading anything from Amazon in a while. I have typically been streaming content from Amazon which has been fine. I have no idea why I had an issue downloading. My download speed maxes out at 84Mb/s on FiOS with the 75/75 tier.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> BTW, I have lost any remaining patience I had with Tivo and have ordered my first Amazon Fire TV. I'm going to give it a try, as it's the only option that has optical out for audio, which is necessary in at least one of my locations. Should it work, the Tivos will be relegated to FiOS only services, which to be honest is the second step closer to cutting the cord. I already have a Roku. I just don't see Tivo miraculously developing world class development capability around IP delivered services anytime soon - if ever.


The FireTV works great for streaming Amazon content. It is currently the best device for streaming Amazon content.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

aaronwt, what you experienced is exactly the same kind of behavior I have been experiencing. To be clear, this is not a new issue. This issue occurred with Tivo HDs, with Tivo Premiers, and now with Tivo Roamios. It comes and goes. Sometimes months can go by and it seems to work OK - though honestly my frequency of using it isn't that often due to the random unreliability. But then there are stretches where it just craps out, as you experienced and as I have been experiencing. It is most certainly a Tivo issue - without exception. 

I appreciate you posting this. All too frequently, everyone wants to just give Tivo a pass and assume that it's the users fault. Tivo really needs to do something about their quality, as while I don't believe cutting the cord will really accelerate to the immediate future for most, there are more and more competitors to Tivo, and they all excel in the area that Tivo simply can't seem to figure out - which is exactly the area that is growing the fastest.


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## thewebgal (Aug 10, 2007)

Very weird - I have a base Roamio I bought Thanksgiving 2013.
I am not using Netflix streaming now, but we did last winter and it worked fine.
Got it tied with Streambaby and its working fine.
Just set up the Free 30 Day trial of Amazon Prime and when I went into the interface it looked like my old TivoHD - kinda poor quality and low res menus. I tried to look around and did not see any of the Amazon TV shows in the Amazon Instant Video app on my Roamio. Alpha House - can't find it! Pretty useless - I set the free demo to Auto Cancel at the end of the Free Trial. I already have an Oppo BluRay player, and the Tivo Roamio, I'm not going to buy another Content Box for my home theater!


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## tim1724 (Jul 3, 2007)

thewebgal said:


> Just set up the Free 30 Day trial of Amazon Prime and when I went into the interface it looked like my old TivoHD - kinda poor quality and low res menus. I tried to look around and did not see any of the Amazon TV shows in the Amazon Instant Video app on my Roamio. Alpha House - can't find it!


This is because it _IS_ the interface you had on the TiVo HD.

The new Amazon app (with streaming and Prime support) hasn't been released yet. But it does appear to be coming soon. (Probably quite soon.) TiVo accidentally enabled it on a bunch of Roamios a few weeks ago but then quickly disabled it.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I'm not waiting for the app. I personally believe that Tivo having content proxied through their systems is simply a fundamentally flawed architecture that will always result in questionable reliability and performance - not to mention completely incapable support. For those displays that audio is not important, I already have a couple Rokus, which have been (even on wireless) far more reliable and the new Amazon Fire TV was delivered today - though I won't have time to mess with it until Monday. Assuming that the Fire TV works well (which is certainly only an assumption at this point) my Roamio Pros, the Premier and my two minis will be relegated to only content delivered by Fios natively.

Tivo should refund part of the lifetime service fees for this fiasco.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

I don't know how the Amazon streaming will work, but Netflix streaming is not proxied through TiVo. When we are streaming Netflix on one of our TiVos I can look at the active connections via my router and there is a direct connection to the Netflix streaming servers listed.

We haven't had any issues with Amazon downloads...we've downloaded 15 or 20 movies or TV episodes in the past 4 months and all have completed in a reasonable amount of time. Many times, we have watched while downloading without issue (other than the problem in the Spring release that caused stuttering of the video while downloads were running in the background).


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

jcaudle said:


> Its so easy just to get a Roku. It works great and gives you a lot more sources of programming. I don't use either Amazon or Netflix on Tivo. I turn to Roku.


I have been using a Roku for 2 years and just recently got a Roamio Basic. I find the Roamio Netflix app to work much better than my Roku. I still like the Roku for the different channels I can get, but at night when I want to watch something on Netflix, I go to the Roamio Netflix app.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Captainbob said:


> I have been using a Roku for 2 years and just recently got a Roamio Basic. I find the Roamio Netflix app to work much better than my Roku. I still like the Roku for the different channels I can get, but at night when I want to watch something on Netflix, I go to the Roamio Netflix app.


I do the exact opposite. I've found buffering and quality issues too often on the Roamio, and I tend to use the Roku every time. The Roku also give me some additional flexibility, as it works extremely well with wifi, and the Roamio is not capable of doing this if you're also using a mini. But I don't watch stuff on Netflix that I care about surround sound, so....


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Diana Collins said:


> I don't know how the Amazon streaming will work, but Netflix streaming is not proxied through TiVo. When we are streaming Netflix on one of our TiVos I can look at the active connections via my router and there is a direct connection to the Netflix streaming servers listed.
> 
> We haven't had any issues with Amazon downloads...we've downloaded 15 or 20 movies or TV episodes in the past 4 months and all have completed in a reasonable amount of time. Many times, we have watched while downloading without issue (other than the problem in the Spring release that caused stuttering of the video while downloads were running in the background).


I've never really checked about Netflix, as I gave up on using Tivo for Netflix more than a year ago and default to Roku.

For Amazon, I have had similar experiences as you - when it works. I have also been able to watch while downloading. However on other times, I can't even get the download - period - with horrible (beyond words) performance that would take more than 40 hours to download a single title. For Amazon, I know for a fact that the content is proxied.

And as has been noted by others, this is not a unique experience to me. The additional fact that if the Roamio is downloading (when it's working) from Amazon, playing back "other" pre-recorded content is jumpy and of poor quality as of late. I'm leaving for the weekend shortly, and will install the Fire TV to see how it works. If it's as good as reported, I will have a solution - though I will continue to laugh every time I see the Tivo marketing about the "Roamio" that "can do everything".


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## thewebgal (Aug 10, 2007)

I went back to the Amazon Prime Interface and found the page to select your Amazon Instant Video Compatible Device - 
you'll notice there is not much offered for TIVOs - only very old ones!

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv/devices/ref=atv_pc_rd_register


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

This doesn't really matter, as Amazon really doesn't need to know anything about the Tivo model. All they're doing is linking to your Tivo.com account. Because they're just sending the content through Tivo - it's actually Tivo pushing the content to your unit - which IMHO is the big issue to begin with. 

More specifically, if you click on any of those "Register" icons - all it does is link to your Tivo account. If you go on Amazon to your "registered" devices and click to "remove" one of your Tivos, ALL of your Tivos get removed because all it usually does is kill your registration between Amazon and Tivo.com.

Again - more evidence that the Amazon download issues for Tivo are on the Tivo end - NOT the Amazon end.


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