# LifeTime Subscription VOID If You Open TiVo Box



## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

While recently posting here and asking TiVo related questions, I was shocked at how much mis-information users here are posting regarding TiVo's $299 LifeTime Subscription.

If you yourself open your TiVo box to say put in a larger disk drive, you will void the warranty on the unit *AND* you are now in breach of your TiVo LifeTime Subscription. TiVo policy clearly explains it:

_"Definition of Product *Lifetime Subscription*. A "Product Lifetime Subscription" to the TiVo service covers the life of the TiVo DVR you buy-not the life of the subscriber. The Product Lifetime Subscription accompanies the TiVo DVR in case of ownership transfer. The subscription remains in effect if the TiVo DVR needs to be repaired or replaced due to a malfunction (see manufacturer or retailer warranty details) or even if you upgrade your TiVo DVR to increase storage capacity (though such upgrades, if not performed by TiVo or a TiVo-authorized third party, *will void the warranty on your TiVo DVR AND constitute a breach of this Agreement*)."_

So please ignore those here who are lying to you stating otherwise. The policy is very clear on this.

If you decide to open your TiVo box anyways, that's great and more power to you as long as you understand that you are in breach of contract with TiVo.

You will also find some people here saying that many are doing it anyways so it must be ok. What you think and what TiVo states are two different things 

Again, if you want to open your TiVo box, then great. Just make sure you are well informed about your $299 LifeTime Subscription being breached.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

And...?


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## Stainless Steele (Feb 2, 2004)

This has been discussed before. Tivo basically turns a blind eye but always reserves the right to do something if they choose. I have had a SA series 1 since 98 i opened and upgraded it in like 2000..that's 6 years without issue....I think you'll find many others here with the same experience.
I'm not worried and neither should you be!

If you looked @ all the fine print in things you get you would find that most manufactures have all this stuff in there..does not stop people from doing it only from the manufacture warranting the item.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

People here, at least the ones who know better, have been consistent in saying that if you open the box, your warranty is void. However, unless you screw up in a way that brings TiVo's attention (such as the various "moron" categories, nothing happens to your subscription.

TiVo is attempting to cover the case of modifications that would constitute theft of service, such as changing serial numbers. I have never once seen a case where a properly upgraded TiVo lost its lifetime status.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

To all, Joe123j is now clearly showing he has no interest in anything other than to give TCF a hard time. I highly suggest he be ignored by all


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

joe123j,

Why do you care in this thread you decided to return your TiVo and go with Sage TV:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=283905

Or maybe you just like beating a dead horse as you covered this topic to death in this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=284343&page=1&pp=30

But be sure to post more info when you actually find someone who's lifetime subscription was revoked because they properly replaced/upgraded their own hard drive.

atmuscarella


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

stevel said:


> People here, at least the ones who know better, have been consistent in saying that if you open the box, your warranty is void. However, unless you screw up in a way that brings TiVo's attention (such as the various "moron" categories, nothing happens to your subscription..


*See, that is exactly the big mis-understanding I am talking about. It is not only the warranty that is void, but also your $299 LifeTime Subscription as well - you are in breach of contract with TiVo.

I too was very interested in upgrading my TiVo box like others are doing, but when I read TiVo's policy and then came here asking about it, I was first told to ignore (wink-wink  ) the policy. When I question that, I got very angry  (maybe employees ) users attacking me and name calling to try to divert the fact.

This is a very costly game to play since In my case, I was planning on buying 2-3 TiVo's.

I am not sure why some here attack or try to discredit someone for simply stating the facts which is this case, are very explicit TiVo policies.

*


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

joe123j said:


> *See, that is exactly the big mis-understanding I am talking about. It is not only the warranty that is void, but also your $299 LifeTime Subscription as well - you are in breach of contract with TiVo.
> 
> *


and, again, people on this forum are very careful to point this caveat out would- be hackers.

You state nothing new. Nothing pople here don't already know and don't already tell others. There are no misunderstandings.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

joe123j said:


> I too was very interested in upgrading my TiVo box like others are doing, but when I read TiVo's policy and then came here asking about it, I was first told to ignore (wink-wink  ) the policy. When I question that, I got very angry  (maybe employees ) users attacking me and name calling to try to divert the fact.
> 
> This is a very costly game to play since In my case, I was planning on buying 2-3 TiVo's.


Let's not forget the chronology of events. You had decided to cancel your TiVo, both here and on the SageTV forum before you ever asked about upgrading anything. You were not *truly* considering upgrading your TiVo box. This was understood and any advice in this area was given to general readers who did not have your SageTV agenda.

Let's also recall that you're the one you calls people liars simply for being able to figure out that the joe123j who posts here is the same person who posts as joe123 on the SageTV forum.

I do thank you for upgrading me from cult member to employee. I do expect you to send me a check for my back pay. As a cultist, I've been posting here for free for all these years.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

This policy might be part of the agreement, but in practice it does not actually get enforced. To my knowledge TiVo has never canceled anyones lifetime service simply because they opened the box to install a bigger hard drive. In fact while they've never officially endorsed adding bigger drives they have done many things to help facilitate it, including fixing "bugs" in software releases that broke upgraded TiVos. Now that's not to say they don't have the right to change their mind and suddenly start enforcing this policy, but that is highly unlikely given their history and the number of customers they would piss off in the process. 

Dan


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

jsmeeker said:


> Nothing pople here don't already know and don't already tell others. There are no misunderstandings.


*
Well, again, this is where we both disagree - fact vs fiction.

I had several users here who are long time posters arguing with me about their mis-understanding of TiVo's factual written policies. I was right, they were wrong regarding the LifeTime Subscription - you can read the posts.

There is a lot of mis-information being spread here.

*


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

joe123j said:


> *
> Well, again, this is where we both disagree - fact vs fiction.
> 
> I had several users here who are long time posters arguing with me about their mis-understanding of TiVo's factual written policies. I was right, they were wrong regarding the LifeTime Subscription - you can read the posts.
> ...


1) Please quote a TiVo employee harassing, attacking, or otherwise being impolite to you.

2) Please find evidence of a single case of a lifetime subscription being revoked as a result of a properly applied home upgrade.

Otherwise it is you who are spreading misinformation.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Everyone! Please STOP feeding the troll.


Please think of the children!


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

joe123j said:


> It is not only the warranty that is void, but also your $299 LifeTime Subscription as well - you are in breach of contract with TiVo.


Try to get this through your head: there is a *huge* difference between *breaching* a clause in the contract and *voiding* the subscription. They are legally distinct concepts. (This is doubly true because of the odd wording of that particular clause.)

There are thousands of upgraded units floating around, people on this board openly admit they do it, give advice on how to do it, and have sent these upgraded units back to TiVo for replacement and repair, and yet there is not a single reported case of a lifetime subscription being voided for reason of unauthorized drive upgrade. Nor have any of the several TiVo employees who post here ever warned people not to upgrade their drives or they will void their lifetime subscription.

The probability of having a lifetime subscription voided because you upgrade your hard drive is exactly zero.

Get over it.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

gonzotek said:


> 1) Please quote a TiVo employee harassing, attacking, or otherwise being impolite to you.


A common occurrence on the forum is that when new people come with complaints, and people defend Tivo, the complainers automatically think the defenders are employees.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> This policy might be part of the agreement, but in practice it does not actually get enforced. To my knowledge TiVo has never canceled anyones lifetime service simply because they opened the box to install a bigger hard drive.


*This is all fine and dandy. But again, you need to know that you are in breach of contract with TiVo for doing so. That is all. No more, no less.

Being in breach of contract can put you at a disavantage should TiVo get bought out by someone else, or if TiVo all of a suddend decides to make more money by demanding $x dollars from you to become 'legit' again or face cut-off. You think this wont happen because TiVo may loose a large portion of the user base? Think again when a company runs out of options to stay in business.

*


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

joe123j said:


> *
> Well, again, this is where we both disagree - fact vs fiction.
> 
> I had several users here who are long time posters arguing with me about their mis-understanding of TiVo's factual written policies. I was right, they were wrong regarding the LifeTime Subscription - you can read the posts.
> ...


No there isn't. There is no mis-information. If there is any misunderstanding going on, it's by you. You are to blame. That is the fact.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Now that's not to say they don't have the right to change their mind and suddenly start enforcing this policy, but that is highly unlikely given their history and the number of customers they would piss off in the process.


Actually, they may have given up that right for exactly the reasons you cite. They have established an operational pattern of not only allowing "unauthorized" drive upgrades, but of actually supporting them. And they have made no attempt to discourage the practice or the cottage industry that has sprung up to facilitate it. And they have made no attempt to enforce that clause of the contract, despite being fully aware of many cases in which it was breached. Given that pattern, it is hard to imagine a court that would side with TiVo against a customer who upgraded his drive.

(And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the odd wording of that particular clause is probably enough for a court to rule it unenforceable.)


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So Joe, this isn't an attack.

What do you mean when you say that if you open the box the lifetime subscription is VOID? To me, Void means it no longer works. Is that what you are saying?

I think there seems to be a misunderstanding here and arguing of semantics.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

joe123j said:


> *[boring stuff deleted]*


Why is all your text bold?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

joe123j said:


> *...[stupid stuff deleted] *


Maybe it's because you are *BOLDING* all your text.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> So Joe, this isn't an attack.
> 
> What do you mean when you say that if you open the box the lifetime subscription is VOID? To me, Void means it no longer works. Is that what you are saying?
> 
> I think there seems to be a misunderstanding here and arguing of semantics.


*You void your TiVo warranty and you are in breach of contract for your LifeTime Subscription (should you have a LifeTime sub).

Here is what I posted on my Original 1st post:

If you decide to open your TiVo box anyways, that's great and more power to you as long as you understand that you are in breach of contract with TiVo.

Again, if you want to open your TiVo box, then great. Just make sure you are well informed about your $299 LifeTime Subscription being breached.

Being in breach of contract can put you at a disavantage should TiVo get bought out by someone else, or if TiVo all of a suddend decides to make more money by demanding $x dollars from you to become 'legit' again or face cut-off. You think this wont happen because TiVo may loose a large portion of the user base? Think again when a company runs out of options to stay in business.

Also, watch how quickly others will jump in here trying to divert from the facts. In fact, I think I hear the tivozito pizza guy coming 

*


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I am telling you all - just read back through his other posts, he will tear down this line as long as people argue with him. We all know the reality and he wants to chnage what reality is so it is a point in Sage TV 's favor. Just ignore the *******

maybe the moderator from sage forum can reel him back in before he gives a furtehr black eye to Sage TV and that forum


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## mgoblue2215 (Oct 22, 2004)

If a tree crashes in the forest and no one hears it ...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> maybe the moderator from sage forum can reel him back in before he gives a furtehr black eye to Sage TV and that forum


Or we can just use joe's style of reasoning -- if he's like this, then all the people on the Sage forum must be like this. Wow, what a bunch of jerks they are. Maybe everybody who uses Sage is a jerk. Man, that Sage is bad news. I think I'll go on their board and tell them what a bunch of jerks they are. Surely they will see my superior logic and congratulate me for enlightening them.


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

joe123j said:


> such upgrades, if not performed by TiVo or a TiVo-authorized third party, *will void the warranty on your TiVo DVR AND constitute a breach of this Agreement*


*

Define "authorized"*


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## mportuesi (Nov 11, 2002)

I have opened and upgraded my Series 2 box, and my lifetime subscription has continued for three months since the upgrade. No hassles with TiVo at all.

Isn't joe123j just a shill for the SageTV platform, spreading FUD in the TiVo forum?


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

mportuesi said:


> Isn't joe123j just a shill for the SageTV platform, spreading FUD in the TiVo forum?


Yes


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mportuesi said:


> Isn't joe123j just a shill for the SageTV platform, spreading FUD in the TiVo forum?


except that I highly doubt sageTV would want any association with him.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

So, let's just ignore the troll and he'll go away...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

tewcewl said:


> So, let's just ignore the troll and he'll go away...


Or we could keep talking about him like he's not here, which is more fun.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

mportuesi said:


> I have opened and upgraded my Series 2 box, and my lifetime subscription has continued for three months since the upgrade. No hassles with TiVo at all.


*That does not change the fact that you have breached your $299 LifeTime Subscription contract with TiVo.

Wishing won't make the facts go away and TiVo is very clear about that.

So your point is?
*


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

joe123j said:


> *That does not change the fact that you have breached your $299 LifeTime Subscription contract with TiVo.
> 
> Wishing won't make the facts go away and TiVo is very clear about that.
> 
> ...


His point was that nothing happened except that a shill on the Internet got aggravated about it. Fortunately the shill is powerless to make anything more happen. Wishing won't make the facts go away but someone seems to believe that repeatedly posting the same thing in bold will.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

dgh said:


> ...but someone seems to believe that repeatedly posting the same thing in bold will.


Maybe joe has trouble reading the smaller print. You guys are so uncaring I bet you never even thought of that. I think we need to adopt a style guide for talking to joe.

*I think this might be appropriate.
*

*Or how about this?

*
*Is this too much?*


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Wow, I'm tempted to put this guy on ignore for the bolding of everything alone.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Joe, Hi Thank You For Bringing This Up I Did Not Know That I Have Had A Tivo For Over Two Years And Its Been Upgraded Thanks Now I Might Lose Subscription I Didn"t Know This I Wish You Had Been Here Before To Warn Me Like I Said Thanks Again I Will Try And Put My Old Hardrive Back In So Nothing Will Happen To My Subscription Maybe I Will Look Into Putting The Current Hardrive In My Throwaway Computer And Install Sagetv It Seems Like A Superier Solution Because I Have 5 Tvs


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## tomo_kun (Sep 8, 2003)

Joe, or whatever, Although legally TiVo says that, they honestly do not care. Others have said before that TiVo doesnt encourage nor discourage modification of their appliances (Short of the whole stealing of service and stuff along that line).

TiVo used to carry resources online for Series 1 (and I think series2, nevermind they carry 7.x even) TiVos for upgrading and replacing hard drives. Don't belive that? Go to www.TiVo.com/Linux . There is all the software you need for a TiVo.


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

It is becoming quite clear that Joe is not here to be part of the community, learn about TiVo, or do anything other than troll for a reaction. He is not listening to the statements of others, and his combative statements have escalated by his use of the bold code.

From our  rules:



> 9. Don't post "flame-bait" - That is a post just to irritate members or designed to get a reaction from people.


He is now getting a three-day timeout. I am being generous and not banning him outright, just in case I am wrong and he does want to learn about TiVo and how it will work with his system.

If he comes back and continues to troll, his ban will be permanent.

I will now close this thread.


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