# Series 3 cost - WOW!



## Jon1 (Aug 11, 2003)

I just bought a Toshiba 42HL196 HDTV and now I am kinda working backwards from there to figure out how this all ties in with my TiVo. I have owned a Series 2 box for the last 5 years. I have discovered that I need to have a Comcast CableCard installed in the TV, and now I find out I need a Series 3 box to record the HD. The TiVo websites says they cost $799. Yikes! That's ridiculous in my opinion. That's only $200 less than I paid for the TV. We watch everything on TiVo so now it seems HDTV is a waste of money unless I cough it up for a S3. Is this what everyone does? Is that a realistic price, or can I do better if I buy a S3 elsewhere?


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

Jon1 said:


> I just bought a Toshiba 42HL196 HDTV and now I am kinda working backwards from there to figure out how this all ties in with my TiVo. I have owned a Series 2 box for the last 5 years. I have discovered that I need to have a Comcast CableCard installed in the TV, and now I find out I need a Series 3 box to record the HD. The TiVo websites says they cost $799. Yikes! That's ridiculous in my opinion. That's only $200 less than I paid for the TV. We watch everything on TiVo so now it seems HDTV is a waste of money unless I cough it up for a S3. Is this what everyone does? Is that a realistic price, or can I do better if I buy a S3 elsewhere?


You could have done a LOT better if you did a little research a little earlier.

TiVo's offer to transfer lifetime to the S3 from your S2 for a fee of $199 just expired. (I assume here you have your S2 lifetimed.)

And I got one of my three S3's for just $565 or so, shipped.

TiVocommunity.com had one of the best prices (this site), at least while they had a 15% off coupon deal going.

Costco.com (if you're a member) had a good price there for a while.

To answer your question, yes, the S3 is worth it.

The alternative, getting your cable company's HD DVR, will likely be cheaper. But you're used to TiVo already, so good luck using it without throwing things at your brand new TV.


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## Jon1 (Aug 11, 2003)

ThreeSoFar said:


> You could have done a LOT better if you did a little research a little earlier.
> 
> TiVo's offer to transfer lifetime to the S3 from your S2 for a fee of $199 just expired. (I assume here you have your S2 lifetimed.)


I wonder if they will repeat the offer soon?


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Jon1 said:


> I wonder if they will repeat the offer soon?


All indications are that they require no proof of purchase. You have until the end of April( I think?) to transfer the lifetime. You most likely could still purchase and transfer, others have reported doing this very recently.

btw amazon has the s3 for $660.

I would research SDV on this forum before making any purchasing decisions.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

dig_duggler said:


> All indications are that they require no proof of purchase. You have until the end of April( I think?) to transfer the lifetime.


March 2 actually if you purchased by Jan 31, 07. That was extended from the 12/31/06 deadline.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

Jon1 said:


> The TiVo websites says they cost $799. Yikes! That's ridiculous in my opinion.


Like others have said, a lot of us have paid less. I paid $689 for my first one and $617 for my second one delivered. But, to put this all into perpective, if you shop for an HD DVD recorder, get ready to yell DOUBLE-YIKES! Because, you will pay all of that and more and NOT have a TiVo!


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## FlippedBit (Dec 25, 2001)

Before you get an S3, learn about SDV and make sure it is not going to be an issue for you.

Edit: I see dig_duggler already suggested this.


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## AtlantaMDX (Mar 19, 2003)

I live in a fairly new subdivision (my street was the last in the neighborhood - about 4.5 years old) and they never ran cable down my street. So everyone has Satellite. And the cable company isn't going to run cable now. 

Anyone heard anything on this?


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## starbar77 (Feb 10, 2007)

my company in the UK do a neat box of tricks to process ANY SD video source into HD, it obviously wont work in the US but you might fing something similar.
as well as up-scaling to match the resolution of your screen, it also takes care of de-interlacing and outputs the pictures progressively scanned. (cleans up image-ghosting, lip-sync error ...)

never really learned much about NTSC but as far as HD goes you guys are far ahead of us.


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## Jon1 (Aug 11, 2003)

starbar77 said:


> my company in the UK do a neat box of tricks to process ANY SD video source into HD, it obviously wont work in the US but you might fing something similar.
> as well as up-scaling to match the resolution of your screen, it also takes care of de-interlacing and outputs the pictures progressively scanned. (cleans up image-ghosting, lip-sync error ...)
> 
> never really learned much about NTSC but as far as HD goes you guys are far ahead of us.


I have no idea what you just said.......


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## Jon1 (Aug 11, 2003)

FlippedBit said:


> Before you get an S3, learn about SDV and make sure it is not going to be an issue for you.
> 
> Edit: I see dig_duggler already suggested this.


What is SDV? Something else I have to buy????


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

starbar77 said:


> my company in the UK do a neat box of tricks to process ANY SD video source into HD, it obviously wont work in the US but you might fing something similar.


The Series 3 upconverts to 1080i. It makes most SD look much better.


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## starbar77 (Feb 10, 2007)

well, to keep it short, 1080i= 1080 horizontal pixels scanned in an interlaced format, the lines 2,4,6,8 etc are scanned, then the 1,3,5,7 etc good picture but..
1080p = is progressive scan, scans each line in turn but in half the time = better picture.

i run my satellite box, tivo, dvd, games consoles through my box of tricks, one hdmi lead to the t.v and get HD quality an all, no need to buy a series 3


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

Jon1 said:


> What is SDV? Something else I have to buy????


Switched Digital Video, it works like Video On Demand. The Series 3 will not be able to receive those channels as it stands. So, research to see if that is an issue for you.


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## Jon1 (Aug 11, 2003)

pl1 said:


> The Series 3 upconverts to 1080i. It makes most SD look much better.


My new TV is 1080i.....


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

pl1 said:


> March 2 actually if you purchased by Jan 31, 07. That was extended from the 12/31/06 deadline.


I wasn't even asked about the purchase date from the CSR I spoke to so I asked. She indicated that is not something they will be pursuing until after the March date- then you are SOL. So RUN- DON'T WALK and get the best price you can on the S3 and transfer the lifetime immediatley and enjoy the Tivo and the S3. Take it from someone who has lived with the cable company's so-called DVR for almost three years (started with a Scientific Atlanta 8000 and then the 8300), which is really just a VCR in disguise- S3 is the best thing to do for your HDTV- even if it were EQUAL to the price of the TV.


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## Jon1 (Aug 11, 2003)

If I buy a S3 can I just hook it up and plug it in and I'm good to go?


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Jon1 said:


> My new TV is 1080i.....


I cannot stress enough you should read some of the SDV threads around here so you can go into it knowledgeable of the situation. Perhaps it won't affect you. All indications are that it is coming, but it may not be that big of a deal to you (depending on your market, your provider, and what channels are of importance to you). As long as you watch these forums you will be ahead of the curve and should be able to recoup your investment on ebay (if you have a lifetime box - non lifetime might have some issues if there are a price drop). Lifetime boxes will always be valuable (assuming the company doesn't go under  )

You should have no issue transferring a lifetime although the fine print says you have to have purchased the item by 1/31 to qualify. Several threads have people reporting that they transferred their lifetime to units purchased after the deadline and were not asked when they purchased or to provide any proof of purchase (as larrs has stated as well above). However, you could always be the first.

My advice: take the plunge, transfer the lifetime without opening it (in case you hit a snag you may want to return it) and use the heck out of it as long as you can. It's a beautiful machine. You won't have to pay $799 but expect to pay $600 or so unless a Dell type deal appears (search Dell in this forum to see what I'm referring to). You may have to sell it w/in the year if all the worst case SDV scenarios come true.

Edit: also you may have some trouble with the cablecard install. Be prepared to spend quite a few hours with your cable company. Some cable companies do not know what the hell they are doing. Many people here though have no issues and it goes super smoothly. Again, depends on your market and provider.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Jon1 said:


> If I buy a S3 can I just hook it up and plug it in and I'm good to go?


You can use it without cable cards and even without cable. It's OTA capable.

Now about SDV. It is advisable to find out what is happening in your area with that but even if it does come to your area it doesn't mean your S3 will be obsolete.

There are a couple of individuals running around this forum for the last week or so who just found out about SDV and are screaming all kinds of alarms about it. The truth is that SDV will probably be implimented everywhere eventually but this is going to take some time in many areas. Rochester NY and Austin TX seem to be pretty much on full board with this but it's a large country and it will take time. In this time a couple things could happen. TiVo may work something out with the cable companies or the FCC could force the cable companies to do something different. I personally feel that we have a better chance of fighting SDV with the current Congress but there are no guarantees.

Comcast has announced it will start roll out of SDV and I don't know when that will happen but usually an announcement makes everything at least a year away.

Just use common sense in your decision. The S3 is a great product and will be a great product even after SDV.


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## Jon1 (Aug 11, 2003)

I guess I don't grasp the concept of what "lifetime" means here. I pay 12 bucks a month for the service. That's it. It was 5 years ago when I first got TiVo so I don't remember if I bought the box outright, or part of my monthly fee is for box rental. Haven't really thought about it since then.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

ThreeSoFar said:


> TiVocommunity.com had one of the best prices (this site), at least while they had a 15% off coupon deal going.


It's $659.99 right now - I just received an email from them.

http://store.tivocommunity.com/merc...ode=EA&Product_Code=2777&Category_Code=S3TIVO

.../Ed


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## starbar77 (Feb 10, 2007)

for a lifetime subs? wow, its £199 pounds sterling here, 390 dollars?

sorry, got the wrong idea there


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

ewilts said:


> It's $659.99 right now - I just received an email from them.
> 
> http://store.tivocommunity.com/merc...ode=EA&Product_Code=2777&Category_Code=S3TIVO
> 
> .../Ed


Same as amazon. Amazon has no tax, no shipping.


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## craigo (Apr 6, 2004)

Jon1 said:


> I guess I don't grasp the concept of what "lifetime" means here. I pay 12 bucks a month for the service. That's it. It was 5 years ago when I first got TiVo so I don't remember if I bought the box outright, or part of my monthly fee is for box rental. Haven't really thought about it since then.


Lifetime service means you paid x amount of dollars and you will have service on that particular box for life. No monthly fees. It sounds like you don't have it on yours, so there is nothing to transfer over to a new S3. Look at tivo.com to see what the service plans are.


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## TivoInNY (Dec 19, 2002)

I just switched over to an S3 after using a cable DVR (SA 8300) for about a year. Before going HD, we were S1 users for several years. For us, the move was well worth it - the cable DVR was reliable about 90% of the time (that's not as good as it sounds...depends on what recordings it randomly misses), and was somewhat easy to use, but it just lacked the overall polish and, perhaps more importantly, reliability of the Tivo. We missed the Tivo experience a lot.

Since we had a lifetime subscription on the S1, I took the plunge and bought my Tivo for $617 shipped a week or two ago. Cablevision came, installed cable cards, and no problems since. For us, it was well worth it.

In your case, since it sounds like you don't have a lifetime subscription to transfer, I recommend trying the cable DVR box. If it suits your needs, great, and it will almost definitely be the more economical choice (even over a fairly long term). That'll also give you an opportunity to get acquainted with HD TV and all of the great and quirky things about it. For example, you mentioned that your TV is 1080i. Your TV is an LCD, I believe, which aren't interlaced (the "i" in 1080i). A quick search indicates it's actually 1080p (the "p" stands for progressive). The short explanation of the numbering is that the numeric part indicates resolution (technically, horizontal lines of resolution), and the letter indicates how the particular TV draws each frame ("i" stands for interlaced and "p" stands for progressive...Google it for more if you're interested). It took me a while to figure everything out and get it all set the way I liked.

Also, you asked if you could just plug the Tivo in and be ready to go like your S2. If you're planning to use digital cable, then the cable company will have to come out and visit (at your cost) to install two cablecards in the back. These allow the Tivo to unencrypt the cable signal. So, it isn't as simple as plug-and-play. Once the cards are in, it isn't much different than an S2 to hook up.

Anyway, in the end, since there isn't a time crunch, why not try the cable DVR for a month or two? If it works for you, great. If not, then you go for the S3 in a few months with peace of mind and when prices will have probably come down a bit.

Good luck with whatever you decide. HD is awesome. You'll never go back!


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

One other point to consider. The Series3 Tivo has a 250GB hard drive and holds approximately 32 hours of HD recordings. Comcast's website says that with their HD DVR "up to 10 hours of HDTV programming can be recorded." There is a possibility that Comcast will upgrade the boxes or hard drives in the future, but I wouldn't count on much (except for maybe an optional Tivo software update sometime in the future that Comcast will bill you an additional monthly fee should you want it). And with the S3, you always have the option of dumping Comcast altogether and either going strictly OTA (paying only Tivo fees) or going with Verizon FiOS if/when they offer their Digital Cable service in your area.



Jon1 said:


> I just bought a Toshiba 42HL196 HDTV and now I am kinda working backwards from there to figure out how this all ties in with my TiVo. I have owned a Series 2 box for the last 5 years. I have discovered that I need to have a Comcast CableCard installed in the TV, and now I find out I need a Series 3 box to record the HD. The TiVo websites says they cost $799. Yikes! That's ridiculous in my opinion. That's only $200 less than I paid for the TV. We watch everything on TiVo so now it seems HDTV is a waste of money unless I cough it up for a S3. Is this what everyone does? Is that a realistic price, or can I do better if I buy a S3 elsewhere?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bilbo said:


> ...The Series3 Tivo has a 250GB hard drive and holds approximately 32 hours of HD recordings. Comcast's website says that with their HD DVR "up to 10 hours of HDTV programming can be recorded."...


 Point of clarification: that's the stock TiVo Series 3. You *can* purchase an S3 with a larger HD. I cannot imagine how anyone can survive with only 10 hours of HD storage. That would be full in a heartbeat with as much HD content as there is now, even for OTA only. But, I guess I'm now spoiled with the 750GB I've got.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

Jon1 said:


> I just bought a Toshiba 42HL196 HDTV and now I am kinda working backwards from there to figure out how this all ties in with my TiVo. I have owned a Series 2 box for the last 5 years. I have discovered that I need to have a Comcast CableCard installed in the TV, and now I find out I need a Series 3 box to record the HD. The TiVo websites says they cost $799. Yikes! That's ridiculous in my opinion. That's only $200 less than I paid for the TV. We watch everything on TiVo so now it seems HDTV is a waste of money unless I cough it up for a S3. Is this what everyone does? Is that a realistic price, or can I do better if I buy a S3 elsewhere?


There is no way to justify an S3 economically. DVRs furnished by the cable companies do a reasonably good job of recording HD programs for about ten bucks a month, while a TiVo costs around $600, or more plus a subscription. Thus, on a strictly dollars and cents basis, TiVo cant compete with cable company boxes. Nevertheless, my S3 has represented some of the best money I have ever spent.

TiVos software is in a class by itself. I gradually accommodated to Coxs Scientific Atlanta boxes after having had an S1 until I nearly forgot how much more one can do with a TiVo than is possible with an SA box. In a phrase, You get what you pay for.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

gwsat said:


> There is no way to justify an S3 economically. DVRs furnished by the cable companies do a reasonably good job of recording HD programs for about ten bucks a month, while a TiVo costs around $600, or more plus a subscription. Thus, on a strictly dollars and cents basis, TiVo cant compete with cable company boxes. Nevertheless, my S3 has represented some of the best money I have ever spent.


Counselor, you and I have been around the yard a few times on this one, and once again I will point out to you that if the DVR does not work properly then the S3 does justify the cost.

Now I'm not the only one out there who will tell you that the SA 8300 is a real pos. I've seen many others post the same thing. I will also admit that I have seen a FEW post saying they had no problems with it but I think those who didn't have problems probably didn't do a great deal of recording. Trust me, when you have to look at the evening schedule daily to make sure your program "might" get recorded, it's well worth the money for the S3.


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

ThreeSoFar said:


> TiVocommunity.com had one of the best prices (this site), at least while they had a 15% off coupon deal going.


Actually, the price they have now ($659.99) is about $20 less then when it was 15% off (price drop since they removed the 15% off coupon.

And don't forget the TiVo Wireless G adapter is $10 off right now as well.



dig_duggler said:


> Same as amazon. Amazon has no tax, no shipping.


I don't remember paying tax/shipping when buying from here - I did use my Amazon Visa tough


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

hookbill said:


> Now I'm not the only one out there who will tell you that the SA 8300 is a real pos. I've seen many others post the same thing. I will also admit that I have seen a FEW post saying they had no problems with it but I think those who didn't have problems probably didn't do a great deal of recording. Trust me, when you have to look at the evening schedule daily to make sure your program "might" get recorded, it's well worth the money for the S3.


I used an _SA8000HD_ (predecessor of the SA8300HD) for over two years with very few problems. I averaged 3-5 hours of recording on every day of the week except Saturday, with at least 3 hours of playback or more. Of course, this was running Passport Echo. The only times I missed a recording (very infrequently) was due to bad guide information, and that's happened to me with TiVo (the guide indicates that a first-run episode is a re-run).

I recently moved from a TWC area to a Cox neighborhood (San Diego County is split between the two); Cox locally uses SARA on their boxes, which, though it works adequately well, sucks in terms of usability and features. As someone who has worked on UI firmware in consumer products for many years, I'd say that SARA was about the worst example that I've seen in any shipping product. I couldn't tolerate it. Going from Series 2 TiVo to Passport Echo was traumatic enough, and Passport is very TiVo like. I couldn't deal with sinking any lower if there were any reasonable alternative, and there was--buying an S3.

I paid $660 for the S3, $50 for the wireless adapter and $300 for a prepaid 3 year subscription. If I spread that over 3 years, it's $28 a month; my savings in trading the DVR for two CableCARDs is $18/month, so the TiVo is costing me $10 more if I consider myself to be paying for it for the next 3 years; after those 3 years are over, it will only cost the subscription price. In any case, it seemed like a reasonable trade-off.

The TiVo also offers potential new and interesting capabilities, like the Amazon Unbox download deal.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I paid full retail for my S3. I pay $12.95/month for TiVo service. Over a three year period, that's $35/month.

My current cable package is analog expanded basic. If I upgraded to the digital tier ----> HD tier ---> HD DVR (which has a much smaller HD and single tuner), my monthly increased cost would surpass $35. *AND* I wouldn't own the box or be able to upgrade it.

I think I made a wise decision.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

mikeyts said:


> I recently moved from a TWC area to a Cox neighborhood (San Diego County is split between the two);


Note that Cox has already done trials for SDV and is planning more.



> I paid $660 for the S3, $50 for the wireless adapter and $300 for a prepaid 3 year subscription. If I spread that over 3 years, it's $28 a month; my savings in trading the DVR for two CableCARDs is $18/month, so the TiVo is costing me $10 more if I consider myself to be paying for it for the next 3 years; after those 3 years are over, it will only cost the subscription price. In any case, it seemed like a reasonable trade-off.
> 
> The TiVo also offers potential new and interesting capabilities, like the Amazon Unbox download deal.


TiVo also doesn't support SDV. If Cox aggressively rolls out SDV in your area, your TiVO will have interesting capabilities - like not allowing you to watch channels that your neighbors get. On the other hand, you'll have the privilege of continuing to pay for your S3 subscription for the next 3 years.

.../Ed


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

hookbill said:


> Counselor, you and I have been around the yard a few times on this one, and once again I will point out to you that if the DVR does not work properly then the S3 does justify the cost.
> 
> Now I'm not the only one out there who will tell you that the SA 8300 is a real pos. I've seen many others post the same thing. I will also admit that I have seen a FEW post saying they had no problems with it but I think those who didn't have problems probably didn't do a great deal of recording. Trust me, when you have to look at the evening schedule daily to make sure your program "might" get recorded, it's well worth the money for the S3.


Hookbill, I'll both agree and disagree with you on this one. You have been running around here for a while saying the SA8300 is a POS. Actually, it does a fair to great job for what it is designed to do. I think that it is evident that it is really a VCR replacement and not a Tivo replacement. I think the main point you are trying to make is that it is not a Tivo and if one is trying to use it to replace a Tivo, then it IS a POS. I for one am keeping the cable co. box in my home theater to pick and record HD movies from the six HD movie channels I receive and then watch them when I want. For this purpose, the SA8300 is great. If you can pick it from the guide and select it, it is great. However, if you want to set up a season pass of any kind, this box is either fair (if you can keep up with it every day or two) or a disaster (if your season passes are spread out all over the channels). 
Those people out there that keep posting here that they would love a Tivo that would act as a VCR without having to susbscribe to service will love the 8300. However, anyone who has had Tivo would be hard pressed to settle for it. Ultimately, that is what made the justification for my family.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

larrs said:


> Hookbill, I'll both agree and disagree with you on this one. You have been running around here for a while saying the SA8300 is a POS. Actually, it does a fair to great job for what it is designed to do.


I'll say this much. It does seem apparent to me that people who had SARA software have more problems then people with Passport. At least that's what I'm getting from this board. I had SARA and I will be more then honest, in my local area over on the AVS boards I had more problems then most. That's one of the reasons I say if you record several shows a night I think there is more problem.

I really hate the SA 8300 because I went through actually 4 of them including the SA 8000 and they would mysteriously forget to record shows that went on hiatus (just drop off the record all list) couldn't resolve conflicts. As you say it was little better then a VCR, it could pause and rewind live tv. Also only 1 week worth of data guide and in my area, no way to tell if it was first run or repeat. Other areas I know do offer that option.

Thank you for allowing me to vent again.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

ewilts said:


> Note that Cox has already done trials for SDV and is planning more.TiVo also doesn't support SDV. If Cox aggressively rolls out SDV in your area, your TiVO will have interesting capabilities - like not allowing you to watch channels that your neighbors get. On the other hand, you'll have the privilege of continuing to pay for your S3 subscription for the next 3 years. .../Ed


Everybody's recording preferences are different, of course, but I'd say a good 70-80% of my current recordings are from OTA. The cable companies may ALSO be shooting THEMSELVES in the foot.


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## BoyScout (Aug 9, 2002)

Jon1 said:


> I just bought a Toshiba 42HL196 HDTV and now I am kinda working backwards from there to figure out how this all ties in with my TiVo. I have owned a Series 2 box for the last 5 years. I have discovered that I need to have a Comcast CableCard installed in the TV, and now I find out I need a Series 3 box to record the HD. The TiVo websites says they cost $799. Yikes! That's ridiculous in my opinion. That's only $200 less than I paid for the TV. We watch everything on TiVo so now it seems HDTV is a waste of money unless I cough it up for a S3. Is this what everyone does? Is that a realistic price, or can I do better if I buy a S3 elsewhere?


Jon,

Comcast will be putting TiVo software on their HD DVRs sometime in the near future. I've heard March.

With a Motorola DVR, you'd still get SDV, PPV, and VOD.

BoyScout


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

BoyScout said:


> Jon,Comcast will be putting TiVo software on their HD DVRs sometime in the near future. I've heard March. With a Motorola DVR, you'd still get SDV, PPV, and VOD. BoyScout


While true, you really don't expect TiVo will supply the equivalent software for free, do you? I told a couple of Comcast users that it would probably cost more and they said no way. So, we'll see how well that goes over. But the upgrade can be downloaded, which is good. They just ship the remote out to you.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16528341/


```
Soon, for an additional fee, 
Comcast subscribers will be able 
to add TiVo DVR features to their 
existing set-top boxes without a 
visit from a technician, Comcast 
said. The actual launch plans were 
unclear, but the companies said 
they have been testing the service 
since late 2006.
```


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

BoyScout said:


> Jon,
> 
> Comcast will be putting TiVo software on their HD DVRs sometime in the near future. I've heard March.
> 
> ...


That's true. It's suppose to be March. How much you want to bet that actually happens in March?

And with your Motorola DVR you get a full 10 hours of recording space.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

hookbill said:


> That's true. It's suppose to be March. How much you want to bet that actually happens in March?


No, that's not true. Why do you think it's supposed to be March?

For the past few months, the rumored target (from Comcast employees) has been Comcast will start deploying the Comcast TiVo in very limited areas in April. I would bet that most Comcast areas won't have the option before the end of the year.


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## RFEngineer (Oct 30, 2006)

hookbill said:


> And with your Motorola DVR you get a full 10 hours of recording space.


Thanks for the heads-up on this. I've got a call in to Comcast to report that my Motorola DVR is apparently broken.

I have 20 hours of HD on it right now and it claims to be 94% full.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

RFEngineer said:


> Thanks for the heads-up on this. I've got a call in to Comcast to report that my Motorola DVR is apparently broken.
> 
> I have 21 hours of HD on it right now and it claims to be 94% full.


Really. I've read many times that it was only 10 hours.

I have to take your word for it, I stand corrected.


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## RFEngineer (Oct 30, 2006)

hookbill said:


> Really. I've read many times that it was only 10 hours.
> 
> I have to take your word for it, I stand corrected.


Note I edited my post after you responded.

I miscounted.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

hookbill said:


> Really. I've read many times that it was only 10 hours.
> 
> I have to take your word for it, I stand corrected.


I think you're right on this one! I believe it's 10 hours worst case in the same sense that the S3 is 30 hours worst case. For both of them, with typical recordings you get much more.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

CrispyCritter said:


> No, that's not true. Why do you think it's supposed to be March?


That's what I had read. Somewhere. March, April, what's the difference? You know as well as I that it's not going to really roll out probably until next year.

I also have heard that 8.1 will be released in two-three weeks. I heard that in October, November, December, January, and February.


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

pl1 said:


> The Series 3 upconverts to 1080i. It makes most SD look much better.


usually strecthing/upconverting sd makes it look worse, but some think it looks better just because it fills their screen.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

Dssturbo1 said:


> usually strecthing/upconverting sd makes it look worse, but some think it looks better just because it fills their screen.


All I know is I set my TiVo for 1080i fixed and it all looks great. Plus, SD channels are coming in as digital instead of analog, so that may also explain the quality improvement all around.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Dssturbo1 said:


> usually strecthing/upconverting sd makes it look worse, but some think it looks better just because it fills their screen.


Stretching and upconverting are two different issues. I upconvert SD to 720p, because it definitely looks better on my set, but I keep the side panels on.

What looks best depends on your TV.


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

ThreeSoFar said:


> The alternative, getting your cable company's HD DVR, will likely be cheaper. But you're used to TiVo already, so good luck using it without throwing things at your brand new TV.


There is also this:

LG 42LB1DR

It has a builtin DVR - uses TV Guide, has a 160GB drive. PPl have had power problems early on, seems to be fixed.

This sitr gave a review of the TV, but not the DVR functionality/usage:
http://www.avrev.com/equip/lg_lcd_42lb1dr/

AVS Forums thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=667907

My S3 cost me $680+$199 = $879/36 = $24.42/month. Considering theRCN DVR would cost me $13/month, but the CCs cost me $3/month, I subtract $10/month from the $24.42/month =

$14.42/month more than getting the RCN DVR. Very much worth it. And since I get 12 mnths on my S2, technically, less.

For the people who have Moxi DVRs, are they pretty much the 6412 (120GB). Anyone have the 6416 (160GB)?


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

After all was said and done, I spent as much on the S3 + lifetime service as I did on the TV. Oh well, that's just what it costs for HD. It's not something you *have* to have, but it sure is nice. Once I get over the sticker shock, I think I'll be glad I forked over the granola. On the plus side, I am saving about $30 per month compared to my cable company's HD DVR and HD package. The TiVo will pay for itself in 3-1/2 years and then it's FREE!

I would expect the S3 to drop in price over the long term. If you can hold out, you might find it affordable down the road. In the meantime, you could go with your cable company's HD DVR.


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## copwriter (Aug 30, 2005)

I'm weighing my options here. I have an S1 with a lifetime subscription and an upgraded HD - I can't recall right now, but I think the added-in drive was 120 GB. IAE, it holds a lot of SD video, which until recently was all I could view, anyway. But I just splurged on a new home theater system with a 52" Sony Bravia 1080p TV (Sweet Factor = 100), Yamaha A/V receiver, yada yada. I don't even have the TiVo hooked up as yet, because I've become quickly addicted to the HDTV picture. I have Charter Cable's Motorola DVR box, which does not thrill me. The HD capacity is small, and the software is far too cumbersome after getting used to TiVo.

I'm thinking real hard about going to the S3 TiVo box. I don't think I can transfer my lifetime sub to the S3. The TiVo web site says this about lifetime transfers:

_You can transfer Product Lifetime Service to another DVR only if:

You activated the DVR with Product Lifetime Service less than 30 days ago.
The DVR was exchanged under warranty, either through the retailer or the manufacturer.
The DVR was activated under an incorrect service number.
_

I don't think any of that applies to me.

So, here are my questions for the group:

I'm real unclear about the limits that SDV rollout might cause. I don't use PPV or VOD, but I get the impression from reading posts here that SDV affects other programming and/or channels. 
Everybody seems to have Comcast (I had it in Maryland before I moved), but I have Charter. Anyone know what their SDV plans and implications are?
Will the S3 record and output 1080p when it starts being broadcast? I don't want to obsolete myself too soon. 

Thanks in advance for the advice.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

CraigHB said:


> After all was said and done, I spent as much on the S3 + lifetime service as I did on the TV. Oh well, that's just what it costs for HD. It's not something you *have* to have, but it sure is nice. Once I get over the sticker shock, I think I'll be glad I forked over the granola. On the plus side, I am saving about $30 per month compared to my cable company's HD DVR and HD package. The TiVo will pay for itself in 3-1/2 years and then it's FREE!
> 
> I would expect the S3 to drop in price over the long term. If you can hold out, you might find it affordable down the road. In the meantime, you could go with your cable company's HD DVR.


Agreed. We are a TV centric household and I have a 100" projection setup and a 50" plasma in my media room, but my S3 is connected to a $700 Vizio in the family room, which is actually where most TV is watched in my house. Other than when I watch sports, I would say my plasma gets little use. I think nothing of the fact that the Tivo is connected to a TV that cost me the same as it did- after all it is about content.


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## BoyScout (Aug 9, 2002)

I heard it was March, but I'm not holding my breath either. My son is paying for an HD DVR from Comcast because he can't afford a TiVo yet, so we'll see when he gets the software.

Just saying it's an alternative. However, he can go into the other room to use the S3 if he wants.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

copwriter said:


> I'm real unclear about the limits that SDV rollout might cause. I don't use PPV or VOD, but I get the impression from reading posts here that SDV affects other programming and/or channels.


From what I've read, portions of the channel line-up are moved to SDV to free up bandwidth. Definitely PPV and VoD, but also new HD additions. My feeling is the current line-up won't change a whole lot, but without access to SDV, new offerings would be unavailable. This is just a guess and there are lots of other opinions. Also, FiOS is moving into a lot of areas. I don't believe bandwidth is as much of an issue for them (Verizon?) and they are not planning to implement any kind of SDV.



copwriter said:


> Everybody seems to have Comcast (I had it in Maryland before I moved), but I have Charter. Anyone know what their SDV plans and implications are?


Charter has expressed interest in the technology but has not announced any plans to start using it. They may use it, they may not. Just have to wait and see.



copwriter said:


> Will the S3 record and output 1080p when it starts being broadcast? I don't want to obsolete myself too soon.


1080p will never be broadcast because it requires too much bandwidth and there's no provision for it in the specification. The only medium that supports 1080p is Blu-Ray or HD DVD. The Series 3 will never support it because it doesn't have the hardware. And even if it could, there wouldn't really be any reason to since broadcast TV will never be 1080p anyway. It's not a big deal. The difference in resolution can only be differentiated with the naked eye on larger screens at closer viewing distances. With a typical HD TV size and viewing distance, there's little benefit.


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## copwriter (Aug 30, 2005)

CraigHB said:


> From what I've read, portions of the channel line-up are moved to SDV to free up bandwidth. Definitely PPV and VoD, but also new HD additions. My feeling is the current line-up won't change a whole lot, but without access to SDV, new offerings would be unavailable. This is just a guess and there are lots of other opinions. Also, FiOS is moving into a lot of areas. I don't believe bandwidth is as much of an issue for them (Verizon?) and they are not planning to implement any kind of SDV.


There is Verizon phone service here, but doubt I will see any FiOS rollout in the foreseeable future where I live. I'm in a mid-size community, and outside the city limits. It was a pretty big deal when Charter put in fiber optic cable to the neighborhoods, as up until then they couldn't offer Internet or phone service, much less HDTV.



> Charter has expressed interest in the technology but has not announced any plans to start using it. They may use it, they may not. Just have to wait and see.


Seems that is the case with a lot of providers in regard to SDV. I wonder how they figure that keeping everyone guessing is good for business?



> 1080p will never be broadcast because it requires too much bandwidth and there's no provision for it in the specification. The only medium that supports 1080p is Blu-Ray or HD DVD. The Series 3 will never support it because it doesn't have the hardware. And even if it could, there wouldn't really be any reason to since broadcast TV will never be 1080p anyway. It's not a big deal. The difference in resolution can only be differentiated with the naked eye on larger screens at closer viewing distances. With a typical HD TV size and viewing distance, there's little benefit.


I didn't know that, so thanks for the clarification. The only 1080p demo I have seen was in a Circuit City around Christmas, and the image blew me away. I could certainly see a difference between that and 720p, and I wasn't especially close to the screen. But that's another topic.

I did have an online chat with Charter today, and on inquiring about installing a CableCARD in a Tivo, got the party line: "We do not support Tivo or any third-party boxes." When I pointed out that there were many Charter customers that had received this service, and that the FCC required Charter to do it, I was referred to Charter Customer Brush-Off at 888-438-2427. I haven't tried them yet, but I'm not expecting a warm and fuzzy response. I just got my service installed last week, and even though I specifically requested an HDMI-equipped box and the tech, seeing the work order, asked for an HDMI-equipped box, he was refused one. He was told that the HDMI boxes were only supplied when a customer complained. I took the box he brought to the Charter office the next day and got the HDMI box, but was told by the CSR, "Boy, did I get yelled at." I guess the HDMI boxes are for display only.

IAE, thanks much for the response and information.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

CraigHB said:


> 1080p will never be broadcast because it requires too much bandwidth and there's no provision for it in the specification. The only medium that supports 1080p is Blu-Ray or HD DVD.


Correction--people keep saying that with the assumption that 1080p would, like 720p, be broadcast at 60 frames/sec. While encoded 1080p60 would require too much bandwidth for an 8 VSB modulated MPEG-2 Transport Stream broadcast in a 6MHz band, 60 fps isn't the goal for video; 24 frames/sec, the rate of cinematic film, is the goal. I'm not sure about HD DVD, but the only 1920x1080 formats _allowed_ in a video stream by the Blu-ray specification are i50, i60 and p24 (I'm surprised, but they don't even allow p25 or p30). 1080p24, 1080p25 and 1080p30 are three of the 18 ATSC broadcast formats; most tuner chipsets on the market from the beginning have claimed to be able to decode all 18. TiVo might not currently output it, but the chipset they're using can certainly scale/interlace it to 1080i or 720p.

So there is a possibility that 1080p24 or 1080p30 might suddenly start to appear on broadcast television, since neither requires any more bandwidth than 1080i60 (p24 should require less). At this point I see little impetus for the broadcasters to bother with it.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

copwriter said:


> I'm real unclear about the limits that SDV rollout might cause. I don't use PPV or VOD, but I get the impression from reading posts here that SDV affects other programming and/or channels.
> Everybody seems to have Comcast (I had it in Maryland before I moved), but I have Charter. Anyone know what their SDV plans and implications are?


1. SDV is not related to PPV nor VOD. If your cable distributes a channel in SDV, your TiVo box will not be able to receive it.

2. http://dtv.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=98553


> At Charter Communications, switched digital's future is brightening, company CTO and executive vice president Marwan Farwaz said during his "tech talk" session held recently.
> 
> "We must mine the bandwidth we have today and we want to look at switched digital video and advanced codex. We have significant 860 [Megahertz] and 750 Mhz systems and want to look at SDV. It's more than just on the drawing board, and we're selecting markets that need it. It's a critical component for bandwidth management," he said.


 .../Ed


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

mikeyts said:


> So there is a possibility that 1080p24 or 1080p30 might suddenly start to appear on broadcast television, since neither requires any more bandwidth than 1080i60 (p24 should require less). At this point I see little impetus for the broadcasters to bother with it.


I think it is more likely they will continue to telecine 24p onto 60i and depend on your TV or video processor to perform inverse telecine to recover the original 24p.

BluRay and HD-DVD movies (film-based material) are encoded at 24p. If 1080i output is chosen the players will telecine 24p to 60i. Some but not all players can output 24p and 60p.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

CraigHB said:


> 1080p will never be broadcast because it requires too much bandwidth and there's no provision for it in the specification. The only medium that supports 1080p is Blu-Ray or HD DVD. The Series 3 will never support it because it doesn't have the hardware. And even if it could, there wouldn't really be any reason to since broadcast TV will never be 1080p anyway. It's not a big deal. The difference in resolution can only be differentiated with the naked eye on larger screens at closer viewing distances. With a typical HD TV size and viewing distance, there's little benefit.


I'll go one farther. On ANY screen up to 120" I can guarantee you will not see any difference between 1080i and 1080p except for things shot on HD Video. There are the same number of pixels in each. Interestingly, 1080p would be more beneficial for broadcast of sporting events than anything else, but it is only used for the Disc formats which rely mostly on content recorded on film. Even those movies recorded digitally are usually "enhanced" to look likr film...


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mikeyts said:


> Correction--people keep saying that with the assumption that 1080p would, like 720p, be broadcast at 60 frames/sec. While encoded 1080p60 would require too much bandwidth for an 8 VSB modulated MPEG-2 Transport Stream broadcast in a 6MHz band, 60 fps isn't the goal for video; 24 frames/sec, the rate of cinematic film, is the goal. I'm not sure about HD DVD, but the only 1920x1080 formats _allowed_ in a video stream by the Blu-ray specification are i50, i60 and p24 (I'm surprised, but they don't even allow p25 or p30). 1080p24, 1080p25 and 1080p30 are three of the 18 ATSC broadcast formats; most tuner chipsets on the market from the beginning have claimed to be able to decode all 18. TiVo might not currently output it, but the chipset they're using can certainly scale/interlace it to 1080i or 720p.
> 
> So there is a possibility that 1080p24 or 1080p30 might suddenly start to appear on broadcast television, since neither requires any more bandwidth than 1080i60 (p24 should require less). At this point I see little impetus for the broadcasters to bother with it.


Now, 1080p/24 WOULD be a great addition for film content.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> And with your Motorola DVR you get a full 10 hours of recording space.


its 20-25 hours of HD


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## mcukier (Mar 22, 2002)

I have it on good authority that the S3 will be dropping to $300 in August. They will be dropping the front OLED display, and then THX Cert/HW....

so, the cost will go down


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

mcukier said:


> I have it on good authority that the S3 will be dropping to $300 in August. They will be dropping the front OLED display, and then THX Cert/HW....
> 
> so, the cost will go down


This wouldn't surprise me in the least. I've always suspected that the S3 was a "glitz" release intended to drum up media and market interest -- and that the "first adopter crowd," with a reputation for a long temper on initial release products and their many foibles, was really something of an extended beta group for the total feature set that will be present on all "Series 3 models."

If Tivo had been aiming at broad distro on the initial release, then they would have offered configurations inferior to the "ultimate" package S3 we know and love - just like they did with the original S1 and S2 Tivos (variable drive space, with or without DVD/DVD-R, etc). For instance, a cable/OTA only box without THX certification (which I bet is in the pipeline), or a cable/OTA/DVD model.

If I'm right, then we all are the guinea pigs for the next subset S3 -- as well as the financiers.


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

Revolutionary said:


> This wouldn't surprise me in the least. I've always suspected that the S3 was a "glitz" release intended to drum up media and market interest -- and that the "first adopter crowd," with a reputation for a long temper on initial release products and their many foibles, was really something of an extended beta group for the total feature set that will be present on all "Series 3 models."
> 
> If Tivo had been aiming at broad distro on the initial release, then they would have offered configurations inferior to the "ultimate" package S3 we know and love - just like they did with the original S1 and S2 Tivos (variable drive space, with or without DVD/DVD-R, etc). For instance, a cable/OTA only box without THX certification (which I bet is in the pipeline), or a cable/OTA/DVD model.
> 
> If I'm right, then we all are the guinea pigs for the next subset S3 -- as well as the financiers.


Interesting--wonder if they'll offer lifetime transfers again?


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## mcukier (Mar 22, 2002)

Revolutionary said:


> This wouldn't surprise me in the least. I've always suspected that the S3 was a "glitz" release intended to drum up media and market interest -- and that the "first adopter crowd," with a reputation for a long temper on initial release products and their many foibles, was really something of an extended beta group for the total feature set that will be present on all "Series 3 models."
> 
> If Tivo had been aiming at broad distro on the initial release, then they would have offered configurations inferior to the "ultimate" package S3 we know and love - just like they did with the original S1 and S2 Tivos (variable drive space, with or without DVD/DVD-R, etc). For instance, a cable/OTA only box without THX certification (which I bet is in the pipeline), or a cable/OTA/DVD model.
> 
> If I'm right, then we all are the guinea pigs for the next subset S3 -- as well as the financiers.


I don't mind being the financier as much as the guinea pig . ESPECIALLY if the new unit has built in support for upstream communication (eg, potentially compatible with SDV/PPV/VoD)

mc


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Revolutionary said:


> This wouldn't surprise me in the least. I've always suspected that the S3 was a "glitz" release intended to drum up media and market interest -- and that the "first adopter crowd," with a reputation for a long temper on initial release products and their many foibles, was really something of an extended beta group for the total feature set that will be present on all "Series 3 models."


One design does not a "Series" make .


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mcukier said:


> I have it on good authority that the S3 will be dropping to $300 in August. They will be dropping the front OLED display, and then THX Cert/HW....
> 
> so, the cost will go down


that would be enough to hook me again.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

mcukier said:


> I have it on good authority that the S3 will be dropping to $300 in August. They will be dropping the front OLED display, and then THX Cert/HW....
> 
> so, the cost will go down


And they still won't support SDV so you may still not get everything you expect to get.

.../Ed


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## tedler (Jan 19, 2007)

mcukier said:


> I have it on good authority that the S3 will be dropping to $300 in August. They will be dropping the front OLED display, and then THX Cert/HW....
> 
> so, the cost will go down


Not calling you a liar, but I'll believe that when I see it.
That is quite a drastic drop, and I'm sure it would leave quite a bad taste in current S3 owners mouths.

If it is true, glad I went with Costco, because back to the store it will go in August, for a full refund.


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## davidahn (Jun 6, 2005)

Regarding the cost of the S3, yes, it's expensive. But to put it in perspective, look at any turnkey media center PC; $1000-5000!!! And they can't do Cablecard yet. Also, the components in the TiVo are not inexpensive, and don't forget the millions of dollars of development costs. Once that's recouped, prices should go down.

Even now, if you think long-term, it's not such a bad proposition; at $614, over 3 years, that's $17.06/mo, plus $8.31/mo for 3 yrs prepaid Tivo service, plus $6/mo for 2 Cablecard rentals, for $33.36/mo. Right now I'm paying $40/mo for two 160GB, SUPER-crappy Verizon FiOS TV Motorola QIP6416 boxes with about 20 hours capacity each. I'd gladly give both up for one TiVo S3! Plus, for $300 you can upgrade your S3 to 98 hours, and if/when they enable the eSATA port, you can upgrade that to 200-400 hours!!!

Or you could get the HD DirecTiVo for about $400, but DirecTV costs about $20-30/mo more than FiOS TV, at least (don't know about cable), and there go your hardware savings. (And it won't work with new HD DirecTV channels because they'll be in MP4.)

David


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## mcukier (Mar 22, 2002)

tedler said:


> Not calling you a liar, but I'll believe that when I see it.
> That is quite a drastic drop, and I'm sure it would leave quite a bad taste in current S3 owners mouths.
> 
> If it is true, glad I went with Costco, because back to the store it will go in August, for a full refund.


I'm simply passing along information I received from a trusted source -- so calling me a "liar" would be a bit out of place anyways. So I'm glad to hear you're not doing so. ;-)

No offense to you or anyone else, but SURELY you knew the price would plummet... I mean, $799 is clearly skimming the cream of the crop (myself included). I purchased one knowing (assuming) full well that the price would plummet within a year or so... but I could've cared less because I wanted my new toy! 

mc


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## tedler (Jan 19, 2007)

mcukier said:


> I mean, $799 is clearly skimming the cream of the crop (myself included). I purchased one knowing (assuming) full well that the price would plummet within a year or so... but I could've cared less because I wanted my new toy!
> 
> mc


Price drop, yes...plummet in one year to more than half the original price? NO.
But if it does, it does. But I find it hard to believe that the price of the OLED display and the THX thing cost $500 together. What does the THX cert really matter anyway, who cares? As long as it pushes through DD5.1 to my receiver I could care less about their "certification".

I DO like the OLED display though...makes the toy that much cooler.


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## mcukier (Mar 22, 2002)

tedler said:


> Price drop, yes...plummet in one year to more than half the original price? NO.
> But if it does, it does. But I find it hard to believe that the price of the OLED display and the THX thing cost $500 together. What does the THX cert really matter anyway, who cares? As long as it pushes through DD5.1 to my receiver I could care less about their "certification".
> 
> I DO like the OLED display though...makes the toy that much cooler.


I think the main reason they're removing the THX and the OLED is precisely so they can appease the early adopters. Sure, we got hosed on the price, but our version is SO MUCH COOLER! 

I have to say, even if the price drops to FREE I won't have any regrets about shelling out for one... 

mc


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

tedler said:


> Price drop, yes...plummet in one year to more than half the original price? NO.
> But if it does, it does. But I find it hard to believe that the price of the OLED display and the THX thing cost $500 together. What does the THX cert really matter anyway, who cares? As long as it pushes through DD5.1 to my receiver I could care less about their "certification".
> 
> I DO like the OLED display though...makes the toy that much cooler.


TiVo, Please come up with a Series 3 HD (LC) Low Cost version.

More like $299


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> Price drop, yes...plummet in one year to more than half the original price? NO.


why not, the hr10-250 went down 400 bucks in less than a year. Almost 50% of its price. Id imagine tivo will be trying to get rid of these s3's with them not being very compatible with the one thing they use, cable.


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## gbelous (Jan 10, 2007)

I think I'd rather have the people at Tivo find a way to get SDV rather than a lower cost S3. It's very frustrating not knowing what's going on.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> Correction--people keep saying that with the assumption that 1080p would, like 720p, be broadcast at 60 frames/sec...


There's really no reason for any broadcaster to invest in 1080p30. The 1080i60 format has already been widely accepted and there's zero quality difference between 1080p30 and 1080i60 on a 720p or 1080p TV. I think we can rest assured we'll never see it.

With respect to TV sets, there *is* reason to invest in a 1080p TV over a 720p TV. Pixelwise, 1080i scales one to one on a 1080p TV and that's a good thing. However, the increased resolution is not easily detectable with an average screen size at an average viewing distance. Paying $500 to $1000 more for a 42" 1080p TV may not be a good investement. For a very large screen, 1080p may be a primary requirement.

As far as the benefit of 1080i60 versus 1080p60, the number of pixels is the same, but the increased framerate can provide smoother video peformance. However, film operates at 24 or 30 fps because the human eye can not easily detect the difference when framerates are any faster. The framerate standard originated from a trade-off for cost of film versus quality of video. Even if there was a standard for 1080p60, there's just no compelling reason to broadcast it.


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

davidahn said:


> Regarding the cost of the S3, yes, it's expensive. But to put it in perspective, look at any turnkey media center PC; $1000-5000!!! And they can't do Cablecard yet. Also, the components in the TiVo are not inexpensive, and don't forget the millions of dollars of development costs. Once that's recouped, prices should go down.


If you are technical, which I tend to think early adopters of Tivo would fall into that category, you could build your own (with out cablecard) pretty simply with virtually unlimited storage space, for much less.

My problem has always been Tivo was 3-5 years behind the time for me. When I got the Series 1 (1999), it was cutting edge, but I quickly wanted dual tuners. Then in 2001/2002, I wanted to record HD. Got tired of waiting so made my own solution with a MyHD card and Fusion card with media center. Been using it for the last 3 years.

Now with things like the HDHomeRun, people have systems that have 4 to 6 HD Tuners to record unencrypted QAM channels to the NAS storage system with over 1TB of storage. Ability to view the recordings from any computer on the network. Easily move files around to laptops etc..

With all the problems people have with cablecard and their cable company, I'm okay with out a cablecard solution.

So there are other options out there. If you have to have cablecard or you don't want to get hands on, then Tivo is the way to go, but if you know computers, you might want to check out things like Sage, Media Center, Myth, etc...


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

As someone fairly well versed with various PC operating systems and hardware, I thought about building my own media system at one point. After reading about the problems people have getting things to work reliably, I abandonded the idea. The thing about TiVo is it may be relatively expensive, but it works reliably with little fuss. Sounds worth it to me. The last thing I want to do is pull my hair out for months and months over a home brewed media system. I already have too many other things to do that over and I don't have much hair left


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

CraigHB said:


> As someone fairly well versed with various PC operating systems and hardware, I thought about building my own media system at one point. After reading about the problems people have getting things to work reliably, I abandonded the idea. The thing about TiVo is it may be relatively expensive, but it works reliably with little fuss. Sounds worth it to me. The last thing I want to do is pull my hair out for months and months over a home brewed media system. I already have too many other things to do that over and I don't have much hair left


I would argue that your perception is misguided. I could also use your logic in regards to the S3 as it would seem it's expensive and seems to require a lot of hair pulling for a number of people (if they fixed the mapping of unecrypted QAM to eliminate the requirement for cablecard, that might help.) Anyways, one of my MCE computers, happens to also be my website AND my email server AND the computer in the kitchen, which is used by the whole family. Anyways, I have had no stability issues with it at all for 3 years. The only outage I had was self induced, when I wanted to upgrade the harddrive to 750 gigs.

Anyways, as someone who is well versed with PC's also and has 2 HTPC computers running for the last 3+ years, I'd say it's actually little fuss. Of course the beauty of it is that it can be as much fuss or as little fuss as you want, because of it's flexibility and upgradeability. For instance, replacing my DVD drive with the xbox360 HD-DVD drive so I can use it for HD-DVD movies. What an awesome deal and the drive only cost $199 ($150 if you got one of those circuit city coupons).

Just another perspective....


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

If Comcast paid me to use the 8300HD DVR I wouldn't use it. My brother is on his third one. He misses more recordings in one month than I have in 5 years of using TiVos.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> If Comcast paid me to use the 8300HD DVR I wouldn't use it. My brother in on his third one. He misses more recordings in one month than I have in 5 years of using TiVos.


Yes, I went through 3 of them and I got 2 partial recordings per week during the summer and when new shows started in the fall that went up to 3. Not to mention the shows that just plain didn't record for reasons unknown. Please see signature.


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## Jon1 (Aug 11, 2003)

Well, the Comcast technician came to install a CableCard in my HDTV and he talked me into installing the Comcast DVR instead, and I am glad he did. Now I can record in HD and watch two shows at the same time, use On Demand, all the while paying two bucks LESS per month than I pay for TiVo, and best of all, not have to spend at least $650 for a S3. Goodbye TiVo! I work in Marketing and it baffles me why TiVo would allow customers to slip away since their S boxes are so expensive. They need to offer S3's for free (and/or a slightly higher subscription fee per month) to keep customers like myself from jumping ship. No wonder TiVo isn't turning a profit!


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

russwong said:


> I would argue that your perception is misguided...


I don't have any first hand experience with PC based home media systems so I'm only repeating what I've read about them.

The S3 was little fuss for me. On the initial install, I did get one bad cable card, but the tech came the next day and had a new one working in less than an hour. With cablecards, I don't have to deal with any of that unmapped channel BS.

I'm confident my S3 was/will be a lot less trouble and more reliable than any other system I could employ. Besides, PC based systems aren't exactly cheap either. You need a big disk and a good tuner card to start with. Without cablecards, you can't get any encrypted channels and the ones in the clear are not mapped. Sounds like a PITA to me.


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

CraigHB said:


> I don't have any first hand experience with PC based home media systems so I'm only repeating what I've read about them.
> 
> The S3 was little fuss for me. On the initial install, I did get one bad cable card, but the tech came the next day and had a new one working in less than an hour. With cablecards, I don't have to deal with any of that unmapped channel BS.
> 
> I'm confident my S3 was/will be a lot less trouble and more reliable than any other system I could employ. Besides, PC based systems aren't exactly cheap either. You need a big disk and a good tuner card to start with. Without cablecards, you can't get any encrypted channels and the ones in the clear are not mapped. Sounds like a PITA to me.


Some true, some not. A homebrew does tend to be more expensive than a Tivo, especially for HD. A good tuner and a big drive set you back $200 alone. All told, its hard to do a dual-tuner HD box for under $800 (yes, even a MythTV box).

That said, my BeyondTV box is very reliable -- once I tamed Windows (ie, strip out the crap, turn off everything "automatic" that you can, etc). Its also dead-quiet, I might ad. 

Edit: I nevertheless agree that HTPC is NOT NEARLY as "fussless" as Tivo. Not by a LONG SHOT.

A note about QAM: there are no PVR applications that work with Windows XP (not sure about Vista yet) that will tune QAM -- EXCEPT for those that come with your tuner. For instance, neither BTV, SageTV, nor MCE do QAM at all -- but the PVR application that comes with DVico tuners (for example) does. This is due to driver support exclusively -- Microsoft makes the drivers available to manufacturers, but not to any third party.

But, you forget ATSC! Every HD tuner does ATSC.


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

Oh, and just to stir the debate about broadcast 1080p 

"Harris is showing off 1080p broadcast TV equipment at NAB2007"


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

Revolutionary said:


> ...All told, its hard to do a dual-tuner HD box for under $800 (yes, even a MythTV box)...


When it comes to SD, nothing could touch my DTiVos. Those things worked perfect, and fast. I paid all of $100 for the both of them. However, HD is a different story. The only way to get HD and TiVo is the S3. I have to be honest, the S3 is just not as fast and seamless as my DTiVos were. But, PQ with SD is a little better and the HD is, well, HD. Comparing expense, a PC based DT HD system might cost as much as a $1000 to build. I spent $1200 on my S3 with purchase/transfer of lifetime service. I think it's well worth it considering only what the cablecards and other TiVo features provide. Then there's the ease of setup, ease of use, and reliability. Speed may be another issue. The S3 is not as fast and smooth as the S2. That may change with future updates, but right now, the S3 is a bit slow and choppy.


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## TivoInNY (Dec 19, 2002)

Jon1 - thanks for reporting back on the outcome. Hopefully the Comcast DVR will work out for you! Like I said earlier, you should definitely try it as the first option. I tried the Cablevision SA8300HD for over a year. 

With that said, if it's anything like the SA 8300HD, it'll start randomly missing recordings in a few days. Then, if your experience is like mine, you'll try to search for an upcoming episode of a show to try to catch it in a rerun, and you'll find you can't do that. Then you'll try to record a season pass for first run and repeats at any time on a given channel (while skipping episodes you've seen before) and find that isn't possible and then, shortly after that, you'll start watching prices on the S3 and thinking about spending a ridiculous amount on it. 

But, of course, that was just my experience. Yours might be totally different (I hope it is!), in which case you will have made the right decision. That's why, in general, I recommend people try the cable DVR. Most importantly, enjoy the HD experience. It's worth the hassle!


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## Jon1 (Aug 11, 2003)

Now that I have the Comcast DVR, does anybody know if I have to mail back to TiVo my old Series 2 box? It's amost 5 years old. They have been charging me 12 bucks a month all this time.


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## mcukier (Mar 22, 2002)

Jon1 said:


> Now that I have the Comcast DVR, does anybody know if I have to mail back to TiVo my old Series 2 box? It's amost 5 years old. They have been charging me 12 bucks a month all this time.


Nope, just cancel your service (online or by phone). Good luck with the comcast DVR. I had one for the past 2 years and, well...

Let's just leave it at "Good Luck To You, Sir!"....

mc


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

TivoInNY said:


> Jon1 - thanks for reporting back on the outcome. Hopefully the Comcast DVR will work out for you! Like I said earlier, you should definitely try it as the first option. I tried the Cablevision SA8300HD for over a year.
> 
> With that said, if it's anything like the SA 8300HD, it'll start randomly missing recordings in a few days. Then, if your experience is like mine, you'll try to search for an upcoming episode of a show to try to catch it in a rerun, and you'll find you can't do that. Then you'll try to record a season pass for first run and repeats at any time on a given channel (while skipping episodes you've seen before) and find that isn't possible and then, shortly after that, you'll start watching prices on the S3 and thinking about spending a ridiculous amount on it.
> 
> But, of course, that was just my experience. Yours might be totally different (I hope it is!), in which case you will have made the right decision. That's why, in general, I recommend people try the cable DVR. Most importantly, enjoy the HD experience. It's worth the hassle!


Yep, make sure you check it daily. Also you will have to look out for conflicts because if a network decides to show the same show twice at the same hour and you have two other shows it won't record anything. And it won't tell you anything about it.

Good Luck. For me I gladly shelled out the 800 bucks to get rid of my SA 8300. One thing good about Comcast is someday you will get TiVo again so in that way you are lucky.


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## avpman (Dec 28, 2005)

mcukier said:


> I have it on good authority that the S3 will be dropping to $300 in August. They will be dropping the front OLED display, and then THX Cert/HW....
> 
> so, the cost will go down


Any idea if it will still be HD? How good is the info?


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> With that said, if it's anything like the SA 8300HD, it'll start randomly missing recordings in a few days.


the motorolas are alot better now. My initial 6412's werent all that great, but did the trick. But my 3416's i have zero issues with. theyve obviously improved in just the 1 year ive had them. Im leaping to dish network though. Nice dvr for free and best hd offerings right now.


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

That's not true either....

HDHomeRun by SiliconDust does unencrypted QAM in Sage, Myth, AND MCE. People have 3 of them and are running 6 HD tuner configurations in Sage and Myth. I currently have 1 and am using it as a dual HD tuner in my MCE.

As for cost, quick look at Fry's ad:

$179 - CPU and MB for Intel Core 2 Duo E6300
$80 - 1 Gig Memory
$200 - 2 x 400GB SATA drives - 800GB
$170 - HDHomeRun Dual HD Tuner
$40 - 7100GS Video Card
$50 - decent case
$15 - remote
+ software

Optional upgradeable items - HD-DVD player, Extra tuners, even more hard drives, etc..

Obviously you could easily save money, by going PIV, 512M memory, 1 hard drive, etc.. as that's what my computer is running on and it works fine. The list above is a damn good modern computer.

Anyways, lots of misinformation out there and I think both solutions are great solutions, for me the S3 is just too expensive right now with the lifetime transfer option. It would have cost me $800 just to do that, with no real upgradeability...

In my case the Comcast DVR box isn't an option, because I don't want to upgrade my cable plan the extra $50 to get the DVR.

So if you like computers, this is a very viable option, with a lot of upside and I would say it's not as much of a hassle as people make it out to be. (Yes it can be, if you want, but it doesn't have to be.)

Let's hope the S3 drops down to the $300 range!



Revolutionary said:


> Some true, some not. A homebrew does tend to be more expensive than a Tivo, especially for HD. A good tuner and a big drive set you back $200 alone. All told, its hard to do a dual-tuner HD box for under $800 (yes, even a MythTV box).
> 
> That said, my BeyondTV box is very reliable -- once I tamed Windows (ie, strip out the crap, turn off everything "automatic" that you can, etc). Its also dead-quiet, I might ad.
> 
> ...


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## avpman (Dec 28, 2005)

russwong said:


> That's not true either....
> 
> HDHomeRun by SiliconDust does enencrypted QAM in Sage, Myth, AND MCE. People have 3 of them and are running 6 HD tuner configurations in Sage and Myth. I currently have 1 and am using it as a dual HD tuner in my MCE.
> 
> ...


Now I'm really confused. If these products handle encrypted QAM do I no longer need a cable card if I choose to use them? Or is the cable card only required to map the premium channels?


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## weldon (Jun 17, 2001)

avpman said:


> Now I'm really confused. If these products handle encrypted QAM do I no longer need a cable card if I choose to use them? Or is the cable card only required to map the premium channels?


Read his post again, the HDHomeRun can stream UNencrypted QAM. If you want encrypted QAM, you have to wait for prebuilt OCUR HTPC's from Dell, HP, etc.


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## avpman (Dec 28, 2005)

weldon said:


> Read his post again, the HDHomeRun can stream UNencrypted QAM. If you want encrypted QAM, you have to wait for prebuilt OCUR HTPC's from Dell, HP, etc.


Got it - thanks for clarifying.


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## dstrat (Nov 8, 2004)

For the S3 is there still a option for "record to vcr" i want to see if i can hook up my panisonic dvd recorder and tranfer shows to its hard drive from the S3 and then burn to dvd disk. I am pretty sure that i couldnt transfer HD recordings but other setting should work right?


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

dstrat said:


> For the S3 is there still a option for "record to vcr" i want to see if i can hook up my panisonic dvd recorder and tranfer shows to its hard drive from the S3 and then burn to dvd disk. I am pretty sure that i couldnt transfer HD recordings but other setting should work right?


Yes there is. It's composite (rca, but I was able to copy a show from HBOHD to my LiteON DVD recorder...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I use the composite out on one S3 and the SVideo out on the other two to go to DVD recorders. So far I haven't noticed any problems. It seems to work the same way as it has since I've been doing it with my HR10-250 boxes in 2004.


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## fcorey (Feb 15, 2007)

russwong said:


> That's not true either....
> 
> HDHomeRun by SiliconDust does unencrypted QAM in Sage, Myth, AND MCE. People have 3 of them and are running 6 HD tuner configurations in Sage and Myth. I currently have 1 and am using it as a dual HD tuner in my MCE.
> 
> ...


while in theory I agree with you, if you are building a dedicated pc there are some other pieces you'll want. Also you have not listed the software costs, SageTV is about $80 plus a valid licensed copy of windows, XP home is $150+

I've built a MPC for a friend and it works fairly well, a co-worker has a monster system with 1TB disk, plus all his DVD online, its very impressive. But setting up the recording isnt as easy or intuitive as Tivo. Thats their strength.

I think its a mistake to make this new box so expensive and have a high monthly fee, I mean come on guys , one or the other but both? What won me over to Tivo was it was easy enough for my wife to use without getting frustrated, and it was relatively cheap. My first directivo was only $100 after rebates, and the Tivo fee was only $5 +/- Thats why we've had it and DirectTv for 6 years.

Now that we just got a HD LCD tv I wanted to upgrade. Comcast came and installed an SA8300HD, I know some people like it, personally I think its junk. The interface is at times painfull. If I dont get a series 3 from costco this weekend the SA8300HD is going back and cable tv will be cancelled after only a week. I hate it, the wife hates it. I will have to suffer along with the current satellite dvr with SD until I decide on what I want. But I have serious concerns on the viability of Tivo with this limited options and their reliance on cablecard. Its too bad, their systems have been great over the years I am just having a hard time swallowing the cost of this new box when DirectTV will set me up with an HR20 for $200.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

fcorey said:


> But I have serious concerns on the viability of Tivo with this limited options and their reliance on cablecard. Its too bad, their systems have been great over the years I am just having a


Before you decide, you should test out your local OTA HD signal with a cheap set of rabbit ears. I was pleasantly surprised to find that I get the 6 basic local stations I watch most often in perfect HD quality. Last night, I was doing a side by side comparison (I have two S3's) of OTA HD and cable HD, same digital hd cable channel, and I was amazed how perfectly matched they are. Once you know you CAN get OTA, I'd recommend getting a better antenna, if you intend on relying on it. Anyway, my point is, the S3 can do OTA HD along with (or without) cableCARDS. If you mainly watch your local channels, this is a very good alternative and you could eliminate cable altogether. You get all of the TiVo guide and all of the features, OTA. Maybe even in combination with your current satellite connection.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

fcorey said:


> I am just having a hard time swallowing the cost of this new box when DirectTV will set me up with an HR20 for $200.


+ box rental + subscription fee + HD programming package + 5 LNB dish install. I payed a big up-front cost for the S3 + lifetime, but with HD OTA only, my monthly bill is around $30 per month less than it would be for DirecTV HD with DVR. And, I don't have all that equipment to deal with, just one cable. Also, the PQ is better, especially on the digital channels. DirecTV uses a lot of compression. I had noticable compression artifacts on the big screen TV with my old DTiVos. Don't have that anymore. Granted, I don't have near as many HD channels, but I have my TiVo and don't have to deal with DirecTV's immature NDS product. I can put a bigger disk in the S3 if I want. NDS requires an external add-on and that's assuming its eSata port is enabled and working properly.

I could have went with the old HR10-250 DirecTiVo, but that product won't support any of the new HD offerings from D* since the new birds that support it are MPEG4 and the HR10 only supports the older MPEG2 birds. However, I could have still used OTA for HD without changing the D* subscription I had at the time. I'm still wondering if that would not have been a better way to go even though I would've had to find one and pay as much as $500 for it. But, I decided to go with S3/cable, despite the expense. I think the PQ is better to say the least. And, my bill is a little lower. DirecTiVos do lack some key TiVo features and they are a legacy product. DirecTV stopped doing software updates for them quite some time ago. Who knows how long they will continue to support operation of them.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

I have two TIVo S3 boxes and one Comcast DVR. Once I was able to implement 30 second skip on the comcast box it wasn't SO bad, but it's really hit and miss. Sometimes the IR works great, but much of the time it's really glitchy. You have to hit play two or three times and by then you have passed up the beginning of the show. It fills up quickly and it's pretty clunky to use overall. 

In a pinch the commie box is better than nothing, but TiVo is way better. Cost is subjective. I don't care what I spend on TV because it's one of the few things I pay for in this house that I actually use and enjoy! Most of my money goes out for the wife and kids. So I will continue to support TiVo products for as long as it's reliable and available. This latest S3 box while not as rock solid as my previous boxes with TiVo, it is still the best game in town. I have high hopes that 8.1 will fix some of the minor glitches in the S3.


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## Jon1 (Aug 11, 2003)

So far the DVR is working great. Not missing the TiVo at all except I do miss is the TiVo suggestions folder.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I find it interesting that so many people are complaining about the cost of the S3 Tivo. Nobody seemed to blink when the HDTivos were selling for $999 but the thought of spending $799 seems to be a bit much for them. When you consider that the price of the S3 has already dropped about 25% (I just got mine for $615, delivered) and the current cost of a 3-year sub is the same as the 2-year ($299 or about $8.31 monthly), it's really not such a bad deal. Two cablecards will set me back an additional $5.90 monthly for a total monthly cost of about $15. That's on a par with most cableco and FIOS DVRs, but with better software and higher capacity for only a dollar or two more per month.

All Tivos started out at a premium price but eventually the prices dropped to a reasonable level. This is just a fact of life with consumer electronics. Anyone that decides to be an early adopter of any new technology always pays a premium to be the first on the block with the latest toys.

I just sold my 500GB HDTivo for $575 for a net cost of $40 for a S3 Tivo plus the 3-year activation. I also have a HTPC that has set me back about $1500 so far. I'll be using that for the OTA HD locals (it has four USB ATSC tuners and 1TB of storage) with no monthly fees involved. After I sell my other two HDTivos my net cost for the HTPC will be less than $400.

I realize that many people don't have the HDTivos to sell to help offset the cost of the S3 so their startup costs will be much higher. I'm just trying to put things in their proper perspective.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> I find it interesting that so many people are complaining about the cost of the S3 Tivo. Nobody seemed to blink when the HDTivos were selling for $999 but the thought of spending $799 seems to be a bit much for them.
> 
> I'm just trying to put things in their proper perspective.


Well, the other perspective would be that when the HR10-250 came out it was the only way subscribers to that specific multichannel service could record HD programming. If TiVo had been able to come out with a similar product in that same time frame, the reaction might have been the same, but by then a lot of consumers had chosen the D-TiVo because of the $5/mo. DVR rate that covered all on the account.

Fact is TiVo S3 enters a market where you can get a HD-capable DVR from your provider without worrying about the future of CableCard, SDV, and avoid a substantial upfront cost for equipment and service. The devout TiVotee might have issues with that DVR, but there are plenty of other users who will accept that solution. I know a couple who had used TiVo, but went HD last Summer and picked up a HD DVR from their provider. When I mention the S3 and the cost, the only reaction was rolled eyes.

I can personally understand the price point for the S3, but the fact is there are options for those who want to avoid that cost.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

bidger said:


> Fact is TiVo S3 enters a market where you can get a HD-capable DVR from your provider without worrying about the future of CableCard, SDV, and avoid a substantial upfront cost for equipment and service. The devout TiVotee might have issues with that DVR, but there are plenty of other users who will accept that solution. I know a couple who had used TiVo, but went HD last Summer and picked up a HD DVR from their provider. When I mention the S3 and the cost, the only reaction was rolled eyes.


If I never owned a TiVo before I would not have thought much of my cable companies DVR. All it was is a glorified VCR, not much more.

I was more then happy to shell out the nearly 1000 bucks I spent on mine to get rid of the SA 8300 (included shipping, 3 year warranty and it was at top price).


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## BoyScout (Aug 9, 2002)

hookbill said:


> Yep, make sure you check it daily. Also you will have to look out for conflicts because if a network decides to show the same show twice at the same hour and you have two other shows it won't record anything. And it won't tell you anything about it.
> 
> Good Luck. For me I gladly shelled out the 800 bucks to get rid of my SA 8300. One thing good about Comcast is someday you will get TiVo again so in that way you are lucky.


I just hung up from Comcast on another issue, but I asked when they where going to dl the TiVo SW. He said that it was already on the boxes and they just had to flip a switch to activate. He seemed to think it would happen any day now. I asked him if it would be by the end of March and he said he would be surprised if it wasn't before the end of February.

No, I'm not holding my breath. But this is what the Comcast CSR told me.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

dstrat said:


> For the S3 is there still a option for "record to vcr"...


I'm actually kind of surprised that they didn't change the UI here in the S3.

Now, I admit I can't think of a perfect way to phrase it right now, but saying something along the lines of "Record to external recorder" might be better than saying VCR.

I mean, who still uses a VCR?

That's mostly a joke, but even on here, a self-selected mostly-technically sophisticated group, people have asked things like "Can I still use Save to VCR even if I'm recording to a DVD recorder?"

So getting rid of the use of VCR would make it seem more modern/cool, AND make it less confusing for the moro[^H^H^H^H] less-sophisticated people.


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## synch22 (Dec 30, 2003)

I just called and signed up for Digital Classic with comcast.... I must say I cringed when they said the HD DVR is 11.95 a month, I wonder what it will be with Tivo...$19.95 would not be suprising.

Anyway I cringed because I have had a lifetime series 2 for almost 4 years now and never made a single monthly payment for a DVR. I want the series 3 but agree with most its wise to wait and see just what happens. I can also wait for a pricedrop and pay the MSD 6.95 a month 3 year plan.

I see price dropping in the Summer...i say $450 may be possible maybe even lower.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

BoyScout said:


> I just hung up from Comcast on another issue, but I asked when they where going to dl the TiVo SW. He said that it was already on the boxes and they just had to flip a switch to activate. He seemed to think it would happen any day now. I asked him if it would be by the end of March and he said he would be surprised if it wasn't before the end of February.
> 
> No, I'm not holding my breath. But this is what the Comcast CSR told me.


I would tend to say that they may be planning on throwing the switch soon, but it's not already on the box. I'm not famiiar with Comcast boxes but if it has a diagnostic screen you should be able to figure it out there,


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

russwong said:


> That's not true either....
> 
> HDHomeRun by SiliconDust does unencrypted QAM in Sage, Myth, AND MCE. People have 3 of them and are running 6 HD tuner configurations in Sage and Myth. I currently have 1 and am using it as a dual HD tuner in my MCE.
> 
> ...


And how much more juice does this system use compared to a S3? Just curious, might want to build one myself.


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

DeathRider said:


> And how much more juice does this system use compared to a S3? Just curious, might want to build one myself.


I haven't measured, but it all depends on how efficient a powersupply you have and such. Keep in mind, the Tivo is a computer as well with a powersupply, cpu, hard drive, etc... So I won't say it's the same, but if it's more, it's not much more.

I use a Dell 400SC which I got for cheap and that seems to have a good power supply, because it runs 4 hard drives, 2 optical drives, as well as my video card and stuff and it only has a 250W power supply. (It's quieter then my Tivos too.)

I used to have 2 Tivo's running and 2 computers running all the time. Now I've decomissioned 1 Tivo and it looks like my second tivo is dieing too. So I'm pretty much down to 2 computers. I need the computer to be up because it's also my email server and website, plus Media center has a plugin so I can connect to it via the internet and schedule recordings from anywhere.

If you are looking for plug and play, Tivo is the better solution, but if you like computers, it's very possible to get a computer to do a lot and have greater expandability and features and still be stable.

I've always said, if it was for my parents, I'd buy a Tivo, but for myself and most of my friends, we've all gone the home built route now and are quite happy with them, especially at the price the S3 is going for.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

DeathRider said:


> And how much more juice does this system use compared to a S3?


For comparison, my S3 takes about 37W.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Revolutionary said:


> A note about QAM: there are no PVR applications that work with Windows XP (not sure about Vista yet) that will tune QAM -- EXCEPT for those that come with your tuner. For instance, neither BTV, SageTV, nor MCE do QAM at all -- but the PVR application that comes with DVico tuners (for example) does. This is due to driver support exclusively -- Microsoft makes the drivers available to manufacturers, but not to any third party.


 Actually there are a couple of 3rd party applications that work with both MyHD and Fusion cards. I use Record_This with my Fusion 5 tuner. Granted it's very primitive compared to BTV, Sage, MCE, etc. but you can use it for automating QAM scheduling and recording and it can be done with multiple tuners at once. Since there's no TTG on the S3 (yet) that's what I use for archiving HD copies of my favorite shows. Unfortunately the Dvico cards are far, far from being robust (mostly because of the crappy software) so that solution is not too reliable which is why I'm hoping we'll get TTG for OTA + unencrypted QAM for the S3 sometime this year (and Tivo has hinted at this already).


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## BoyScout (Aug 9, 2002)

hookbill said:


> I would tend to say that they may be planning on throwing the switch soon, but it's not already on the box. I'm not famiiar with Comcast boxes but if it has a diagnostic screen you should be able to figure it out there,


Ya, that sounded kinda far-fetched to me too, but that is what he said.

I'll play around with the menus a bit in the morning to see what I can see.


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## Packy (Nov 2, 2002)

BoyScout said:


> Ya, that sounded kinda far-fetched to me too, but that is what he said.
> 
> I'll play around with the menus a bit in the morning to see what I can see.


That would certainly be cool if it's already loaded, but I doubt it's something they'd be telling all the CSRs at Comcast.

Well, the sooner the better, because I don't want to pay a ton of $$ to lease an HR20 and be locked in for another year or two. My LCD is begging for HD!


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

My S3 consumes almost a quarter the power of my desktop computer. The energy cost of running an HTPC 24/7 can be an important consideration.


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## BoyScout (Aug 9, 2002)

Packy said:


> That would certainly be cool if it's already loaded, but I doubt it's something they'd be telling all the CSRs at Comcast.
> 
> Well, the sooner the better, because I don't want to pay a ton of $$ to lease an HR20 and be locked in for another year or two. My LCD is begging for HD!


I looked at the menus this morning on the comcast box and didn't see anything that stands out.

The CSR said they had an all-hands meeting where it was announced.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

CraigHB said:


> My S3 consumes almost a quarter the power of my desktop computer. The energy cost of running an HTPC 24/7 can be an important consideration.


Couldn't an HTPC hibernate when not in use? I used my laptop with BeyondTV for a little while and it could wake up from hibernation to make a recording.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Yes. In 2001 to 2004 when I used two HiPix cards for HD recording the pc would go into hibernation when not recording the HD programs. It shouldn't be any problem now if I was doing it back then.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

mikeyts said:


> Couldn't an HTPC hibernate when not in use?


I'm not _absolutely_ certain, but I think "Standby" would be the option you'd want because the PC would still be powered on, but using less resources. In "Hibernation" it shuts down and resumes from the Desktop when powered up.


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