# Photos from a Series 3 beta tester over at HDBeat



## msu2k (Jan 4, 2001)

http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/22/series-3-tivo-in-the-wild/

This Cablecard part is not so good but predictable...and the fact they haven't tested out eSATA drives shows how far along in the beta process they are.



> These pictures should help hold us over until the Series3 is released whenever that is. We have a few details as well, the Series 3 seems to be very speedy, but TiVoToGo is not on yet. It does have HME functionality including Yahoo Web Stuff, Live 365, TiVo games as well as others. They haven't started testing the eSATA drive yet and the biggest issue was the complexity of the CableCARD setup; big surprise. It took three visits from the local cable company and four cable cards before they were able to get all the premium channels working.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

Yeah...my cablecard in my TV doesn't get all the channels I receive on my Cablebox. Haven't called to complain though......since I exclusively watch the Tivo instead.

Hey Tivo...If ya need a series 3 beta tester, I'm in the area...and can keep a secret...unlike whoever leaked the pics.


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## mattpol (Jul 23, 2003)

::::drool:::::


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Why does TiVo pick such dumb beta testers? So we know the guy is a Cablevision sub, with an SA Explorer ???? box, who also has a Humax DVD unit. He's also got two cable cards, and required 3 visits and 4 cable cards to get the thing working. Of all the TiVo Series 3 beta testers out there, there must be, what?, one?, that fits that description? He even supplied a close up picture of the exact positioning of the warranty sticker on the back, just in case the TiVo folks weren't sure. What a schmuck.

If TiVo had picked me for the beta you can be damn sure I wouldn't be blabbing all over the internet about it.

I also wouldn't be writing about how the fat cats at TiVo can't pick good beta testers because they are too busy... oh, never mind.


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

If leaks are coming from beta testers, I think that's a clear sign that the real thing is coming out soon.


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## bedelman (Feb 26, 2001)

ChuckyBox said:


> Why does TiVo pick such dumb beta testers? So we know the guy is a Cablevision sub, with an SA Explorer ???? box, who also has a Humax DVD unit. He's also got two cable cards, and required 3 visits and 4 cable cards to get the thing working. Of all the TiVo Series 3 beta testers out there, there must be, what?, one?, that fits that description? He even supplied a close up picture of the exact positioning of the warranty sticker on the back, just in case the TiVo folks weren't sure. What a schmuck.


Whoever it was, was bright enough to strip the EXIF information from the JPG files as well as cover a rear portion of the box with black tape (I'm guessing that that's where the TSN is printed)

But like you said, the other unique aspects should be good enough to nail him or her (you left out the IR emitters being used by the Humax as well)


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Something to keep in mind...

The Series3 beta has been going on for some months now. It would be wrong to assume that the experience with CableVision was recent. He probably got his Series3 from Tivo last Spring and that's when he would have encountered these problems with Cablevision.

Many providers were working to address CableCard setup and authorization issues on their systems earlier this year.


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

Maybe Tivo sanctioned the "leak". Er, just hoping.


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## bpurcell (Mar 16, 2005)

peteypete said:


> Maybe Tivo sanctioned the "leak". Er, just hoping.


Uh, yeah, I doubt that. I assume this guy's not as smart as he thinks he is (Yeah, I'm assuming a guy, educated guess). The clues the other posters picked up on should give Tivo a good idea, especially the cablevision box and Humax unit. I just hope this doesn't cause problems for the rest of the beta, or worse cause a delay. I wonder how many beta boxes are out there?

Good hunting, Tivo!


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

In addition to the damage the leaker did by leaking, he may have compounded it by giving the info on the CableCard issues. We have no idea if the issues were S3 related, cable company related (the field technician or those authorizing the card), or cable card related (bad firmware), but the impression is that the problems were Tivo related.

Hope Tivo finds this guy and terminates his beta participation.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

One thing I've been wondering - how on earth do you keep a Series 3 Beta secret - *and* yet have ye old Cable Company guy in to install, and diagnose Cable-Card problems? The entire goal of testing the box's interoperability with a wide variaty of Cable-Card providers, in secret, would seem to be something of a logistical nightmare for the folks running the Beta.

Of course noone who actually knows the answer to that question can actually answer it - but the question has been nagging at me for months...

-Ken


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Even if they had 100 testers spread across the country, what is the statistical possibility that anyone of them would get an installer that even knew what a S3 TiVo was let alone cared enough about it to go bosting about it on the internet? I'd guess it's pretty small and they're just playing the odds. Plus even if someone did happen to get an installer like that it's not like the tester is going to let him/her take pictures so they can get in trouble for it.

Dan


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> So we know the guy is a Cablevision sub, with an SA Explorer ???? box, who also has a Humax DVD unit. He's also got two cable cards





bedelman said:


> IR emitters being used by the Humax as well


Yep... the dude probably outed himself (or at least shrank the pool) when he didn't stop to think TiVo collects that sort of connection data.



peteypete said:


> Maybe Tivo sanctioned the "leak". Er, just hoping.


Companies such as MS (Xbox 360) have been known to do that, but I doubt TiVo would present a "beta tester" with CableCARD _problems_.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

davezatz said:


> Companies such as MS (Xbox 360) have been known to do that, but I doubt TiVo would present a "beta tester" with CableCARD _problems_.


Don't be so quick to assume - perhaps Tivo knows that they won't make their "2nd half" deadline and authorized the leak to lead our speculation. Assuming they don't, after seeing this leak, wouldn't you begin to assume that it's a cablecard problem?


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

classicX said:


> Don't be so quick to assume - perhaps Tivo knows that they won't make their "2nd half" deadline and authorized the leak to lead our speculation. Assuming they don't, after seeing this leak, wouldn't you begin to assume that it's a cablecard problem?


Lets Hope not!


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## msu2k (Jan 4, 2001)

classicX said:


> Don't be so quick to assume - perhaps Tivo knows that they won't make their "2nd half" deadline and authorized the leak to lead our speculation. Assuming they don't, after seeing this leak, wouldn't you begin to assume that it's a cablecard problem?


I'm still in denial that the S3 won't be out in time for the new fall lineup. I mean, in my mind I knew it wouldn't be, but my heart was hoping otherwise.


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

bedelman said:


> Whoever it was, was bright enough to strip the EXIF information from the JPG files as well as cover a rear portion of the box with black tape (I'm guessing that that's where the TSN is printed)
> 
> But like you said, the other unique aspects should be good enough to nail him or her (you left out the IR emitters being used by the Humax as well)


Also that the Humax was recording at 6:50.

Even if TiVo has a "frigging huge" user base this should be enough to catch him or her.


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## cap (Jan 27, 2001)

I'm starting to develop Chucky's attitude the more I have to wait to hear anything about the Series 3.

Give us some indication on when these are coming.
Surely they have a pricing scheme worked out even if there are some testing issues to resolve, let's release the pricing so we can start to plan for the release.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

cap said:


> I'm starting to develop Chucky's attitude the more I have to wait to hear anything about the Series 3.
> 
> Give us some indication on when these are coming.
> Surely they have a pricing scheme worked out even if there are some testing issues to resolve, let's release the pricing so we can start to plan for the release.


As we saw with the Series 2DT I think they will probably go Apple and announce and release on the same day. At least that is what I am going with for now so I can expect to see it available any day!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

amjustice said:


> As we saw with the Series 2DT I think they will probably go Apple and announce and release on the same day. At least that is what I am going with for now so I can expect to see it available any day!


and I am happily sitting with my extended basic cable and DT unit setting up the fall season. I am really glad TiVo came up with an analog dual tuner DVR :up: :up: about all I am missing is Football in HD. Monk or Earl is just fine is SD even if I can not read all the notes Randy holds up.


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

I have three points/observations:

1) SHAME on those of you who are chastising this person for being a schmuck, moron, etc!!! We have all been DROOLING for more info, details, release dates, etc. This person chances it to throw us a bone and you guys want this person dropped from the beta program. I applaud this person for the tips they gave us and the photos they shared. I realize the may/may not violate your NDA w/ TiVo but we're desperate for whatever we can get on the this S3...thank you for your contribution. If anyone else would like to share info, status updates or photos, please feel free to share them with me and I'll shield you from the ungrateful jerks. Okay, I'm done ranting.

2) I have no idea what people are thinking when they infer that this leak (sanctioned or not) indicates that the public release is near. Am I the only one who read that they haven't even started testing the hard drive expansion port??? Don't we think that that will be a component of the beta test and they won't release this thing publicly until they've completed all components of the beta test??? On the other hand, maybe that's not significant because there is that window button on our remotes that still has no function. Maybe the same will be true with that port...maybe they put on their in case they want to activate it later but have not plan to do so at the time? Nonetheless, I think the data in this leak would indicate that the release is farther off than any of us had hoped. Your thoughts? (Please tell me I'm wrong...I want my S3 yesterday.)

3) Comment number 8 on http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/22/series-3-tivo-in-the-wild/ is quite bold. Obviously this could be totally baseless. On the contrary maybe they know something we don't. Anyone know who this CBell person is? Has anyone else heard that it will be announced 9/12 and released 9/13?? (Wouldn't that be wonderful?)


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Since its no secret that the S3 is being beta tested, all TiVo has to do is helicopter in its Black Ops team to make sure the Cable Guy doesn't do anything funky. Unfortunately, that limits the beta to folks with flat roofs or large lawns.

Its all just a fake out to turn attention away from 8/30.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> ...I also wouldn't be writing about how the fat cats at TiVo can't pick good beta testers because they are too busy... oh, never mind.


No, Chucky, PLEASE go on.....I'm your biggest fan! Seriously!


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Well, heck, those of us who attended TC Con 06 in Vegas saw all this and more. But I suppose that doesn't count as "in the wild". I predict someone banned from future TiVo betas.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> ...1) SHAME on those of you who are chastising this person for being a schmuck, moron, etc!!! We have all been DROOLING for more info, details, release dates, etc. This person chances it to throw us a bone and you guys want this person dropped from the beta program. I applaud this person for the tips they gave us and the photos they shared. I realize the may/may not violate your NDA w/ TiVo but we're desperate for whatever we can get on the this S3...thank you for your contribution. If anyone else would like to share info, status updates or photos, please feel free to share them with me and I'll shield you from the ungrateful jerks. Okay, I'm done ranting....


No....shame on YOU for encouraging this kind of crap. There is no may/may not about it --- it *IS INDEED* a violation of the NDA. This kind of complete lack of integrity seriously jeopardizes the TiVo beta program. And this information has nearly NOTHING that hasn't been publicly released -- even the photos are nothing new.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

jeffrypennock said:


> This person chances it to throw us a bone and you guys want this person dropped from the beta program. I applaud this person for the tips they gave us and the photos they shared. I realize the may/may not violate your NDA w/ TiVo but we're desperate for whatever we can get on the this S3...thank you for your contribution. If anyone else would like to share info, status updates or photos, please feel free to share them with me and I'll shield you from the ungrateful jerks.


Do we really want to be encouraging people to break their NDAs just so we can see some photos and screen caps? Personally, I don't ...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I noticed that the article mentions that TiVoToGo was not enabled on the S3, yet HME was. I had been wondering how TiVo would get away with TTG on a S3 since unlike the S2 boxes with TTG which records analog, the S3 is recording the direct digital stream from the cable company. I would think the MPAA would not want TTG enabled on the S3. I'm guessing it might never be enabled on the S3 and this leak seems to lead credence to that.


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> No....shame on YOU for encouraging this kind of crap. There is no may/may not about it --- it *IS INDEED* a violation of the NDA.


 You read the particular NDA that this person signed/agreed to? I've participated in various betas for various companies...the terms of NDA varied from test to test.


Bierboy said:


> This kind of complete lack of integrity seriously jeopardizes the TiVo beta program. And this information has nearly NOTHING that hasn't been publicly released -- even the photos are nothing new.


 You can't have it both ways...either there's nothing new here OR it jeopardizes something (certainly not the integrity of the beta program). It doesn't harm the product, the progress of the beta test or the bugs/fixes of particular focus tests. If you REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to stretch it, then MAYBE it harms TiVo by jeopardizing proprietary information/products BUT no such proprietary information was disclosed here. TiVo isn't taking notes here, no grades are being assigned...you don't have to kiss their ass...all they care about is whether or not you buy their product and they won't even sell it to you sooner because you raved against this beta tester or me.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

jeffrypennock said:


> 1) SHAME on those of you who are chastising this person...


My impression is that it's fairly easy to get into the TiVo beta program (just don't ask me how I get this impression), and some of the chastisers may be aware of the Terms of the program through experience, and appreciate being able to shake out new features before they hit the street via participation in the Beta program.

The tivocommunity's reaction to Beta leaks may be somewhat unique (I haven't seen it elsewhere, although I do participate in a couple other product-specific forums) so I think TiVo users identify more closely with TiVo Inc than most other product users.


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## jmatero (Apr 9, 2003)

So, is it fair to say that I would simply remove my cablevision cable card and insert it into the TiVo and "that's that"... just ditch the SA8300HD? And I just won't have access to Pay-Per-View and Cablevision on-demand content?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> You read the particular NDA that this person signed/agreed to? I've participated in various betas for various companies...the terms of NDA varied from test to test. You can't have it both ways...either there's nothing new here OR it jeopardizes something (certainly not the integrity of the beta program). It doesn't harm the product, the progress of the beta test or the bugs/fixes of particular focus tests. If you REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to stretch it, then MAYBE it harms TiVo by jeopardizing proprietary information/products BUT no such proprietary information was disclosed here. TiVo isn't taking notes here, no grades are being assigned...you don't have to kiss their ass...all they care about is whether or not you buy their product and they won't even sell it to you sooner because you raved against this beta tester or me.


NDA means just what the letters stand for -- NON DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT. What part of that don't you understand? YOU DO NOT DISCLOSE. And this joker did....period...


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

jmatero said:


> So, is it fair to say that I would simply remove my cablevision cable card and insert it into the TiVo and "that's that"


You can't just move a one-way CableCard from host to host (TV to Tivo) ... it won't work. CableVision needs the authorization information from the new host (Tivo). There's a screen (MMI) on the S3 to get this info once the CableCard is installed in it.

Hopefully they'll let you call it in yourself. Otherwise ... they'll insist on a tech visit (who will call the information in).


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## mearlus (Nov 1, 2004)

morac said:


> I noticed that the article mentions that TiVoToGo was not enabled on the S3, yet HME was. I had been wondering how TiVo would get away with TTG on a S3 since unlike the S2 boxes with TTG which records analog, the S3 is recording the direct digital stream from the cable company. I would think the MPAA would not want TTG enabled on the S3. I'm guessing it might never be enabled on the S3 and this leak seems to lead credence to that.


TTG follows the Broadcast flag 'rules' where it wont let you copy something over to your computer if the broadcast flag says not to. I would assume it's not enabled so they can only test what Tivo wants them to test.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> No, Chucky, PLEASE go on.....I'm your biggest fan! Seriously!


Here is the latest news about what the fat cats at TiVo are up to. As you can see, properly supervising a beta program would be difficult under the circumstances.


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

jeffrypennock said:


> I have three points/observations:
> 
> 1) SHAME on those of you who are chastising this person for being a schmuck, moron, etc!!! We have all been DROOLING for more info, details, release dates, etc. This person chances it to throw us a bone and you guys want this person dropped from the beta program. I applaud this person for the tips they gave us and the photos they shared. I realize the may/may not violate your NDA w/ TiVo but we're desperate for whatever we can get on the this S3...thank you for your contribution. If anyone else would like to share info, status updates or photos, please feel free to share them with me and I'll shield you from the ungrateful jerks. Okay, I'm done ranting.
> 
> ...


Instead of continuing to squabble with Bierboy about the 1st point I made above (which isn't the point of this thread or these boards nor is it very fun to read for everyone else I'm sure), I'd like to refocus our attention and solicit responses to the other two points I asked about: (2) what do infer by the disclosed information with respect to what it indicates about beta progress/release date AND (3) what's with this 9/13 date? Anybody else heard about this?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Wow....must be hard work to re-post your previous post. Trying to build up your count?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Wow....must be hard work to re-post your previous post. Trying to build up your count?


Hmm ... seems to be a pattern around here for a lot of members ...


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

drew2k said:


> Hmm ... seems to be a pattern around here for a lot of members ...


I just wanna catch up to you, drew.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

jeffrypennock said:


> Instead of continuing to squabble with Bierboy about the 1st point I made above (which isn't the point of this thread or these boards nor is it very fun to read for everyone else I'm sure), I'd like to refocus our attention and solicit responses to the other two points I asked about: (2) what do infer by the disclosed information with respect to what it indicates about beta progress/release date AND (3) what's with this 9/13 date? Anybody else heard about this?


I don't think a SATA drive really needs a beta test -- it is a pretty mature technology. It can be pretty thouroughly worked out in-house, and then tested in the field with a limited first distribution just to make sure there are no surprises.

The 9/13 date is a perfectly reasonable guess, and may even come from someone in the know. But we have no other information to go on, so it carries no more weight than anything else posted randomly and anonymously on a blog. That said, it'll probably turn out to be true.

BTW, the NDA-breaker is still a schmuck -- he gave his word and then stabbed TiVo in the back. He has no honor.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> I noticed that the article mentions that TiVoToGo was not enabled on the S3, yet HME was. I had been wondering how TiVo would get away with TTG on a S3 since unlike the S2 boxes with TTG which records analog, the S3 is recording the direct digital stream from the cable company. I would think the MPAA would not want TTG enabled on the S3. I'm guessing it might never be enabled on the S3 and this leak seems to lead credence to that.


There's no issue with implementing TTG on digital broadcasts from ABC, CBS, FOX, and NBC, where the FCC has said no limits can be placed on the number of personal copies, but there is an issue with TTG on digital cable channels marked as "copy once."

Will customers understand a TivoToGo implementation that only permits the digital content from the local networks and analog cable channels to be transferred to a computer or mobile device?

Tivo might be able to get around the limitation on digital channels marked "copy once" by re-encoding / transcoding them to MPEG-4 at SD resolution with Tivo Desktop.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> I just wanna catch up to you, drew.




Looks like you'll be there soon!

I probably would have posted many more times over the years if I didn't feel compelled to run the spell-check and correct my posts every time I was ready to hit "Submit"!


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> I don't think a SATA drive really needs a beta test -- it is a pretty mature technology. It can be pretty thouroughly worked out in-house, and then tested in the field with a limited first distribution just to make sure there are no surprises.


That makes sense, because all TiVo has to do is make sure the SATA port and other related hardware are working properly before releaseing the S3 to the public. Later on, they could tweak the software as needed to ensure the external drive is properly "married" to the TiVo, or however they plan to enable recording on the external drive.


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

peteypete said:


> If leaks are coming from beta testers, I think that's a clear sign that the real thing is coming out soon.


Why would you think that ?


It'll be out 2nd half of 2006, anytime between now and Dec. 31st, 2006, maybe longer if the beta testers find a bunch of problems.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> BTW, the NDA-breaker is still a schmuck -- he gave his word and then stabbed TiVo in the back. He has no honor.


He is without Honor. He has brought shame and dishonor upon his House.


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## msu2k (Jan 4, 2001)

jeffrypennock said:


> I have three points/observations:
> 
> 1) SHAME on those of you who are chastising this person for being a schmuck, moron, etc!!! We have all been DROOLING for more info, details, release dates, etc. This person chances it to throw us a bone and you guys want this person dropped from the beta program. I applaud this person for the tips they gave us and the photos they shared. I realize the may/may not violate your NDA w/ TiVo but we're desperate for whatever we can get on the this S3...thank you for your contribution. If anyone else would like to share info, status updates or photos, please feel free to share them with me and I'll shield you from the ungrateful jerks. Okay, I'm done ranting.


I agree. It's Tivo's job to worry about that, not ours. :up: Having said that, I'd never break an NDA if I signed one. I'm not going to get  at someone else for having done so though. It's not my place to, it's between them and Tivo.



> 2) I have no idea what people are thinking when they infer that this leak (sanctioned or not) indicates that the public release is near. Am I the only one who read that they haven't even started testing the hard drive expansion port??? Don't we think that that will be a component of the beta test and they won't release this thing publicly until they've completed all components of the beta test??? On the other hand, maybe that's not significant because there is that window button on our remotes that still has no function. Maybe the same will be true with that port...maybe they put on their in case they want to activate it later but have not plan to do so at the time? Nonetheless, I think the data in this leak would indicate that the release is farther off than any of us had hoped. Your thoughts? (Please tell me I'm wrong...I want my S3 yesterday.)


 That's exactly my take on it as well. If they truly haven't tested add-on external drives yet, I imagine we're not looking at a release until at least October. I'd love to be proved wrong on that though of course.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

drew2k said:


> Looks like you'll be there soon!
> 
> I probably would have posted many more times over the years if I didn't feel compelled to run the spell-check and correct my posts every time I was ready to hit "Submit"!


Yeah, that really slows us down! Once the S3 is out, and there's a forum just for it, you can bet our post counts will escalate.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

msu2k said:


> That's exactly my take on it as well. If they truly haven't tested add-on external drives yet, I imagine we're not looking at a release until at least October. I'd love to be proved wrong on that though of course.


Companies regularly release products with inactive ports labeled for "future expansion". The original S2 had USB ports which weren't actually used for over a year, and the original DirecTiVo shipped with only one of it's two tuners enabled. So I wouldn't take the "fact" that they haven't tested the eSATA port yet as a sign that the release is far away.

I've still holding out hope for for an August 28th release. 

Dan


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

kdmorse said:


> One thing I've been wondering - how on earth do you keep a Series 3 Beta secret - *and* yet have ye old Cable Company guy in to install, and diagnose Cable-Card problems? The entire goal of testing the box's interoperability with a wide variaty of Cable-Card providers, in secret, would seem to be something of a logistical nightmare for the folks running the Beta.
> 
> Of course noone who actually knows the answer to that question can actually answer it - but the question has been nagging at me for months...
> 
> -Ken


could be the installer is the RAT!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

has anyone seen if it does MRV? DOes lack of TTG mean no MRV? OR it does MRV sans TTG?

I could give a flying rat's rear about TTG, but MRV is a big deal to me personally...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Companies regularly release products with inactive ports labeled for "future expansion". The original S2 had USB ports which weren't actually used for over a year, and the original DirecTiVo shipped with only one of it's two tuners enabled. So I wouldn't take the "fact" that they haven't tested the eSATA port yet as a sign that the release is far away.
> 
> I've still holding out hope for for an August 28th release.
> 
> Dan


I'll buy one on AUgust 28th and I volunteer to beta test the Esata port


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> Instead of continuing to squabble with Bierboy about the 1st point I made above (which isn't the point of this thread or these boards nor is it very fun to read for everyone else I'm sure),


so do you concede that breaking an NDA is dishonorable and should not be done no matter what information those reading want to know. Or are you just as ready to ignore such things as the person who broke their word? Please reply so the people who go through beta applications will understand your position on this


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> The 9/13 date is a perfectly reasonable guess, and may even come from someone in the know.


If this guy is right, that could be why they picked the 9/13 date.


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## bedelman (Feb 26, 2001)

windracer said:


> If this guy is right, that could be why they picked the 9/13 date.


Maybe it was a digit transposition thing, and they really meant to show it as a date of 9/31


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so do you concede that breaking an NDA is dishonorable and should not be done no matter what information those reading want to know. Or are you just as ready to ignore such things as the person who broke their word? Please reply so the people who go through beta applications will understand your position on this


While I'm MUCH more interested in discussing the S3 than debating fine points of law or big concepts such as honor, I will respond to your question. An NDA is a legal contract, the terms of any legal contract can vary radically and despite the psychopathological tendencies of some people in this thread to engage in splitting (in which they see the world as black and white with no gray, all good or all bad, a binary 1 or 0, or where all NDAs are the same and are fully explained by simply spelling out the abbreviation), I don't know if the person broke their NDA or not; I can't possibly know this because I haven't read the NDA that they agreed to. It's certainly plausible that they did violate what we may hypothesize their NDA to have been, but it may be that the terms of the NDA that they entered into permitted that kind of disclosure. I certainly will NOT concede that NDA's should never be broken. I think that there is sometimes an ethical obligation to violate an NDA and then face the consequences (e.g., if I did R&D work for a pharmaceutical candidate drug which trials revealed to be dangerous, I would violate the NDA and disclose that if the pharmaceutical company tried to take the drug to market anyway by suppressing the unfavorable data). Did the tipster in this case have an equally compelling ethical obligation to violate the NDA? Obviously not. But they didn't do any sort of damage to the beta test or TiVo either. In general, it's usually a bad thing to not follow through on commitments (be they contractual or otherwise) BUT it's TOTALLY ABSURD to assert that this tipster "has no honor" as some have said. I don't know that we can extract much about the nature or content of his/her character based this ONE single act because it's just one data point and it totally lacks the magnitude necessary to arrive at such a scathing conclusion. No person is all good/bad; even honorable people sometimes do dishonorable things and dishonorable people sometimes do honorable things. 
I don't know if what they did was wrong (because I don't know what their NDA said) and so I won't take it upon myself to sit in judgement of them as I am armed with neither the specific facts of this case nor a larger context to view them in. I am just grateful that they shared what they did as I am eager to learn as much as I can about the product of this product. I will leave it up to them to be familiar with their contractual obligations and to TiVo to see that they are not violated.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so do you concede that breaking an NDA is dishonorable and should not be done no matter what information those reading want to know. Or are you just as ready to ignore such things as the person who broke their word? Please reply so the people who go through beta applications will understand your position on this


People here are assuming the leak came from someone that did sign an NDA. Maybe his kid did this or the cable guy, let TiVo find out if they think its a problem. On this form we just read what posted and post if we want to. It not up to this community to police TiVos NDAs.


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I've still holding out hope for for an August 28th release.
> 
> Dan


Hope? Sure, we all do. Do you still think an August 28th release is plausible, given our proximity to the 28th w/o any rumblings or indications that we're that kind of close?

(I'm sincerely asking, not challenging you. I don't have much of a frame of reference on this with TiVo. Other products that I've tracked in the pipeline...SK2, SK3, XM Inno...we saw coming a mile away and were even able to track in and out of the manufacturing process)


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## Squeege96 (May 1, 2006)

WindRacer,

Great Quote! That gave me a good laugh.



Oh, and I guarantee that the guy who broke his NDA was also the kid in class who told the other kids there was no Santa, too.


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## cmaasfamily (Jan 26, 2006)

I'll go with August 28.

I've thought about posting this before, but it's not based on any inside info or great insight into the technology and therefore is flimsy speculation at best. 

I do have about 20 years in high technology product management/marketing however, and it does give me some insight into timing of these things. I am missing the single most important data point - when is the product ready - but can look at many other factors (earnings call date, channel lead time, press/analyst deadlines and lead times and promotional opportunites, compelling events - like new TV season and football, even little stuff like Pony's business trip and vacation!). Doing so leads me to a sweet spot around the end of August. 

Tivo can't (or shouldn't) just announce S3 again. They have to annouce availability to get the coverage they want. I believe it will be 24 hours or less from press release to orderable from the Tivo website; with retail channel stock within two weeks.

If they don't hit Aug 28/29, I see another window around Sept 18/19. If they miss that I think it'll be an indication of product delays and they'll be shooting for a Dec 31 date to save face on publicized promises.

My less than 2 cents worth.


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## J4yDubs (Jul 3, 2002)

Hmmm. Looks like there's going to be an opening in the S3 beta. Pickme, pickme!


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## msu2k (Jan 4, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Companies regularly release products with inactive ports labeled for "future expansion". The original S2 had USB ports which weren't actually used for over a year, and the original DirecTiVo shipped with only one of it's two tuners enabled. So I wouldn't take the "fact" that they haven't tested the eSATA port yet as a sign that the release is far away.
> 
> I've still holding out hope for for an August 28th release.
> 
> Dan


I would be giddy if there's an August 28th release.







What's your reasoning for this prediction?


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

drew2k said:


> That makes sense, because all TiVo has to do is make sure the SATA port and other related hardware are working properly before releaseing the S3 to the public. Later on, they could tweak the software as needed to ensure the external drive is properly "married" to the TiVo, or however they plan to enable recording on the external drive.


Yes, that, and the fact that most of the testing you'd want to perform on the external drive support is likely to be "unwelcomed" aka "destructive" tests that beta testers really wouldn't like to perform. Such as:

- Pull power on the external drive while recording and see what happens
- Yank the signal cable while recording and see what happens
- Disconnect the drive and replace it with a different one, and see what happens

etc...

Yeah, doing a bunch of stuff likely to cause you to lose recordings is best done in the labs. It'll do the same thing in Alviso that it would in Kansas City (or Houston for that matter).

Jeff 
(wishing I had an NDA to violate...  )


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

msu2k said:


> What's your reasoning for this prediction?


It's a very scientific process that's fairly complex and hard to explain....

It's my birthday. 

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cmaasfamily said:


> I'll go with August 28.
> 
> I've thought about posting this before, but it's not based on any inside info or great insight into the technology and therefore is flimsy speculation at best.
> 
> ...


Wow that makes me even more hopeful. :up:

Dan


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

jeffrypennock said:


> [ ... ] despite the psychopathological tendencies of some people in this thread to engage in splitting [ ... ]


Don't forget the psychopathological tendency of other people to engage in rationalization (in which one constructs elaborately twisted arguments to justify unethical, immoral, or unacceptable behavior). For instance arguing that the language of an NDA _might_ allow one to post pictures of the DVR and its unique and new interface screens, and to discuss its operation, aspects of the testing, and problems encountered in setup, and since we don't know for a fact that it doesn't, we can draw not conclusions about the discloser or his actions.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jautor said:


> Yes, that, and the fact that most of the testing you'd want to perform on the external drive support is likely to be "unwelcomed" aka "destructive" tests that beta testers really wouldn't like to perform. Such as:
> 
> - Pull power on the external drive while recording and see what happens
> - Yank the signal cable while recording and see what happens
> ...


Also, just because this beta tester isn't testing the SATA expansion port doesn't mean nobody else is either.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MickeS said:


> Also, just because this beta tester isn't testing the SATA expansion port doesn't mean nobody else is either.


Good point! They could very well have a subset of testers working on that.

Dan


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

August 28th is my Birthday. What a nice present it would be if TiVo were to give me an S3, you listening TiVoguys?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

SullyND said:


> August 28th is my Birthday. What a nice present it would be if TiVo were to give me an S3, you listening TiVoguys?


Hey me too! I'll take mine complete with lifetime service please. 

Dan


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## msu2k (Jan 4, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> It's a very scientific process that's fairly complex and hard to explain....
> 
> It's my birthday.
> 
> Dan


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

msu2k said:


> the fact they haven't tested out eSATA drives shows how far along in the beta process they are.


How so? When the S2's shipped the USB ports did nothing at all. It wasn't until later software updates that they were enabled. There is no reason to believe that the eSATA port will be enabled on Day 1. Based on history I would not be surprised if it was not enabled, but was enabled in an update later. TiVo tends to phase things.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

classicX said:


> Don't be so quick to assume - perhaps Tivo knows that they won't make their "2nd half" deadline and authorized the leak to lead our speculation. Assuming they don't, after seeing this leak, wouldn't you begin to assume that it's a cablecard problem?


When leaks have happened in the past TiVo has stated that they *NEVER* use 'leaks' to get information out. They are never sanctioned by the company.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

morac said:


> I noticed that the article mentions that TiVoToGo was not enabled on the S3, yet HME was. I had been wondering how TiVo would get away with TTG on a S3 since unlike the S2 boxes with TTG which records analog, the S3 is recording the direct digital stream from the cable company. I would think the MPAA would not want TTG enabled on the S3. I'm guessing it might never be enabled on the S3 and this leak seems to lead credence to that.


Remember TiVo can control TTG/MRV on a recording by recording basis. They could do something like allow transfers of antenna based recordings and analog cable recordings, but not digital cable recordings, etc. And I don't think the MPAA is as much a factor as Cable Labs. Since this box has CableCARD it needs to comply with any restrictions required for CC certification.

TiVo has repeatedly stated that they want to support TTG/MRV on the S3 but that not all of the S2 features may be there at launch while details are being worked out.

We'll just have to wait and see what the answers are.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

jeffrypennock said:


> 1) SHAME on those of you who are chastising this person for being a schmuck, moron, etc!!! We have all been DROOLING for more info, details, release dates, etc.


Sure, we all want more data, but that doesn't mean we want someone to violate their NDA. That's just not cool. There is no good justification for it. Sure, it isn't like they've leaked something damaging to TiVo - the photos don't show anything new, my photos from CES show a lot more. But it is the principal of the thing. I have signed NDAs with TiVo in the past - I visited their offices and got a tour and had to sign an NDA to not disclose any non-public product info I learned. And TiVo has repeatedly stated that their beta testers all sign an NDA which restricts them from even saying they're a tester, let alone any actual data.

I'm a realist, and I've been on both sides of a beta program - run them and been a tester - and on both sides of an NDA agreement, so I know it is rare for someone to actually talk to *no one*. But there is a gulf between confiding in a good friend you trust and sending photos to a blog.



> Am I the only one who read that they haven't even started testing the hard drive expansion port???


No, I think we all read that.



> Don't we think that that will be a component of the beta test and they won't release this thing publicly until they've completed all components of the beta test???


There is no reason to believe the E-SATA port will be enabled when the box ships. There is also no reason to believe that because one person say's they aren't testing it that it isn't in test within TiVo, or with a smaller group. Maybe TiVo didn't want to send E-SATA drives out to every tester in the S3 beta, so they have a smaller team for that. We can't really draw any conclusions from one data point.

I don't think we really learn anything new at all from this leak. No major bugs were mentioned, so the beta could be about to wrap and the product could ship this month. Or maybe they *are* planning to ship with E-SATA, TTG, etc, and there are still phases left in the beta and it won't ship for a month or two.



> 3) Comment number 8 on http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/22/series-3-tivo-in-the-wild/ is quite bold. Obviously this could be totally baseless.


Like you say, it could be baseless. I'd expect anyone who actually knows the date would be under an NDA. So this is either someone willing to violate their word - in which case, do you trust their info? Or it could be a joker. Or just someone who heard a date from someone else and thinks it is accurate but who knows?

Again, we've really learned nothing - we knew the box was in beta, TiVo said so themselves, and it looks pretty much just like the box at CES and at TC Con in Vegas. So one tester is saying he doesn't have E-SATA or TTG - which could mean anything really.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

*This* is so not new!

In fact the *original photos* and info about the Series 3 at 2006's CES were mirrored from your (megazone's) *site* but were far more comprehensive.

Interestingly, the front view of TiVo's Series 3 has a definite superficial resemblance to Sony's single tuner CableCARD *HD DVR* and the input and output capabilities of each are quite similiar.


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

MickeS said:


> Also, just because this beta tester isn't testing the SATA expansion port doesn't mean nobody else is either.


I think this particular beta tester probably isn't testing, well, anything any more... 

(insert image of TiVo employee hitting the giant SMITE button on the server in the sky...)


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## Deacon West (Apr 16, 2006)

I've got the date: September 21!

Here's why


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

megazone said:


> Maybe TiVo didn't want to send E-SATA drives out to every tester in the S3 beta,


If they have any sense, they wouldn't send E-SATA drives to every tester. For a valid test you need to have all reasonable configurations under test. If everyone had an E-SATA drive you wouldn't find the bugs that only happen without it.


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

Since tivo posted this

http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr.asp

on their homepage, here's what I think happened.

Beta is nearing an end, so the Beta tester felt that he could post pictures and not be punished. Often a beta will wind down and there's not much left for beta testers to do, and the company begins to ramp up regular things.

So the beta person thinks "well i'm done, so I can post now"

Bottom line. Series 3 will come in September.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

peteypete said:


> So the beta person thinks "well i'm done, so I can post now"


TiVo's NDAs forbid mentioning any beta info even after a beta is closed and done with. Sure, they may not be able to do much to you (well, if you leaked important info they have legal recourse and can also turn all your TiVos into doorstops) but you're chances to be a beta tester again are shot.

So you burn bridges.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

jmatero said:


> So, is it fair to say that I would simply remove my cablevision cable card and insert it into the TiVo and "that's that"... just ditch the SA8300HD? And I just won't have access to Pay-Per-View and Cablevision on-demand content?


I am a Cablevision customer, and all of their STBs that I have used *do not* use a CableCard like the ones that the CableCard TVs (and I assume the S3) use. The Cablevision "cablecard" is literally a thin piece of plastic that is identical in size to a credit card, and has gold connectors in the center of the card (on the flat side).

The CableCards that I have seen for consumer electronics devives (like TVs) are similar, if not identical, in size to a PCMCIA card. In fact, they have the same type of female connectors as the PCMCIA cards have. Two totally different types of equipment.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> . . . BTW, the NDA-breaker is still a schmuck -- he gave his word and then stabbed TiVo in the back. He has no honor.


Well said


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> . . . I've still holding out hope for for an August 28th release.
> 
> Dan


I know there's some significance to that day. I just can't remember what it is 

EDIT: Too late! You already told.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

lessd said:


> People here are assuming the leak came from someone that did sign an NDA. Maybe his kid did this or the cable guy, let TiVo find out if they think its a problem. On this form we just read what posted and post if we want to. It not up to this community to police TiVos NDAs.


You may be right about the kid, but would you let an installer snap a picture of your electronics? I know I wouldn't.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> despite the psychopathological tendencies of some people in this thread to engage in splitting (in which they see the world as black and white with no gray, all good or all bad, a binary 1 or 0, or where all NDAs are the same and are fully explained by simply spelling out the abbreviation), I don't know if the person broke their NDA or not; I can't possibly know this because I haven't read the NDA that they agreed to. It's certainly plausible that they did violate what we may hypothesize their NDA to have been, but it may be that the terms of the NDA that they entered into permitted that kind of disclosure.


Sorry, it is known that TiVo Beta NDAs preclude any mention of what is seen in the BETA, even after a BETA is done. There is no hypothesizing here. The person who posted the info may well have hypothesized that the data they released did no damage to TiVo but that would be TiVo Inc.'s call. Certainly there was nothing in there that had some compelling override of the NDA we know said to not talk about the BETA.
So rationalize away but the message is still the same in the end, Breaking an NDA for a TiVo BETA just hurts the beta program and our chances for future BETA programs. It is dishonorable in a world that needs more honorable behavior.
And since this thread is about the posting of information someone obviously obtained from a BETA then this is very much a topic of this thread.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I am a Cablevision customer, and all of their STBs that I have used *do not* use a CableCard like the ones that the CableCard TVs (and I assume the S3) use. The Cablevision "cablecard" is literally a thin piece of plastic that is identical in size to a credit card, and has gold connectors in the center of the card (on the flat side).


In the satellite world, don't they call those smartcards? I assume Cablevision uses the same thing in their STBs.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Deacon West said:


> I've got the date: September 21!
> 
> Here's why


Great, now I'm going to have that song stuck in my head all day ...


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ...So rationalize away but the message is still the same in the end, Breaking an NDA for a TiVo BETA just hurts the beta program and our chances for future BETA programs. It is dishonorable in a world that needs more honorable behavior....


Well put, Zeo, and (obviously from my previous posts in this thread) I agree.


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## scottm5443 (Oct 22, 2002)

Lets just hope it was a person that didn't sign the NDA. It would be had to control some neighbor with a cell phone or something like that.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

btwyx said:


> If they have any sense, they wouldn't send E-SATA drives to every tester. For a valid test you need to have all reasonable configurations under test. If everyone had an E-SATA drive you wouldn't find the bugs that only happen without it.


Sure if money is no object....

Maybe they plan to just do an early beta on the released version for volunteers who buy their own drives? I'd volunteer for sure.


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## bedelman (Feb 26, 2001)

scottm5443 said:


> Lets just hope it was a person that didn't sign the NDA. It would be had to control some neighbor with a cell phone or something like that.


I would doubt that it would be "some neighbor with a cell phone or something like that". It clearly looks to be intentional and the person who took the pictures went to some lengths to both strip the EXIF information from the files as well as cover a portion of the backplane with black tape (it's probably where the TSN is printed)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

greg_burns said:


> In the satellite world, don't they call those smartcards? I assume Cablevision uses the same thing in their STBs.


yup and if i recall last time i pulled my in-laws out of their cablecard box to look it was also made by NDS- just like the Directv ones....

curiosityu and all...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bedelman said:


> I would doubt that it would be "some neighbor with a cell phone or something like that". It clearly looks to be intentional and the person who took the pictures went to some lengths to both strip the EXIF information from the files as well as cover a portion of the backplane with black tape (it's probably where the TSN is printed)


Exactly Bob, Lets hope this slows down the rationalizationj of all this.
Agree or don't agree that it was wrong but clearly this was someone who knew full well they were breaking an NDA and went to some lengths to not get caught at it. In my bokk it was wrong and hinders TiVo Inc's ability to fully test products before release as TiVo has to consider MUCH shorter beta cycles so competitive info is not released with time enough for competitors to act on it. That obviously hurts us all as attested to in the many 7.3.1 threads.


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> yup and if i recall last time i pulled my in-laws out of their cablecard box to look it was also made by NDS- just like the Directv ones....
> 
> curiosityu and all...


Let us not confuse Smart Cards and CableCards. Yes some Cable Cos use Smart Cards in their STBs, but those are completely different than CableCards.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

terryfoster said:


> Let us not confuse Smart Cards and CableCards. Yes some Cable Cos use Smart Cards in their STBs, but those are completely different than CableCards.


That was the point of my post


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> That was the point of my post


As well as mine.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> competitors


ROFL

What Tivo competitor exists right now that would act AT ALL on such information?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

classicX said:


> What Tivo competitor exists right now that would act AT ALL on such information?


You never know who's lerking out there waiting to jump in on the business. A few years ago there was a company called Rearden Steel which seemed unlikely to be involved in DVR development. They later changed their name to MOXI and became a major partner of Charter Communications.

Dan


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> You never know who's lerking out there waiting to jump in on the business. A few years ago there was a company called Rearden Steel which seemed unlikely to be involved in DVR development. They later changed their name to MOXI and became a major partner of Charter Communications.


Strangely enough it was a friend who worked at Rearden Steel/Moxi who got me into TiVo. When they first announced Moxi it looked exciting and he hinted that being a DirecTV customer might get you into a beta program for Moxi. That go me looking at D* and then into a DirecTiVo and now I'm salivating at the thought of an S3.

I could never work out what Reardon Steel was doing from his descriptions.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

_It's my birthday._

You realize that they're going to release it on *somebody*'s birthday just to mess with us. Then we'll never know. Was it always scheduled for the 28th? Or did they move the date around just a bit to land on some-one's birthday just for giggles?

Not my birthday though - unless you want to wait until next July.

And I forbid (sorry all), but I forbid them to release it between September 18th and October 2nd. Just not allowed.

-Ken


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

I like the August 28th idea, not just because it only a few days away, but it'd make a nice anniversary present for us. (Our anniversary is actualy the 27th, but I wouldn't mind waiting a day until the first day of our 13th year.)


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

kdmorse said:


> You realize that they're going to release it on *somebody*'s birthday just to mess with us. Then we'll never know. Was it always scheduled for the 28th? Or did they move the date around just a bit to land on some-one's birthday just for giggles?


Every day is someone's birthday.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

classicX said:


> Every day is someone's birthday.


Mine's in March...


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

So they'll release it Feb. 29?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Oct 19th - baby. I have a good shot


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

_Every day is someone's birthday._

I just looked at the calendar - every day is apparently a *lot* of peoples birthdays... There will be a dozen winners regardless of what day they pick....

-Ken


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

September 17th is my birthday. And since TiVo is of course run by patriots and it also happens to be Constitution Day and Citizenship Day, they will obviously release it that day.


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## mattman (Jun 25, 2002)

August 24th is mine, and I got no joy... At least that I'm allowed to tell you guys about... <g>

Matt


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> You never know who's lerking out there waiting to jump in on the business. A few years ago there was a company called Rearden Steel which seemed unlikely to be involved in DVR development. They later changed their name to MOXI and became a major partner of Charter Communications.


Yeah, a friend of mine works for Digeo/Moxi, he wrote the networking code I believe. He's kind of bitter about the way management handled things. They were going to bring a DVR to the general market, but then they decided to go strictly for partnerships - but that didn't work out well, and now they're stuck in a tiny niche. And now it looks like TiVo is having more success than Moxi at landing the big cable deals.

I used to say that TiVo's only real competition on a product basis was ReplayTV and Moxi. But ReplayTV is out of the picture, and Moxi kneecapped themselves.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

What would you guys of asked the beta tester if you were able to to?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bdraw said:


> What would you guys of asked the beta tester if you were able to to?


1. What current features on the DT (7.3.x) platform are missing from the S3?
2. Is there asymetric tuner support?
3. Can you edit channel mappings to specify QAM frequencies?
4. Are there any new features?
5. How responsive is the box?
6. Is the hard drive indeed 250GB?
7. How well is the CableCard support working?
8. What's the most surprising thing about the S3?
9. What's the most disappointing thing about the S3?
10.Why are you breaking the NDA by answering these questions?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> ...10.Why are you breaking the NDA by answering these questions?


EXACTLY.


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## Moebius (Nov 25, 2002)

I just can't understand why people can't respect the NDAs they sign. I mean, here I am, sitting at home testing the new Pentium 12 processor and you don't see me telling anyone about it. Oh wait....


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## AVSman (Mar 17, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> 3. Can you edit channel mappings to specify QAM frequencies?


Oh, please, please, please let the answer be Yes!

I have Limited Basic cable from Comcast for $14 a month, with the cable running from wall to TV, and the QAM tuner in my Panasonic plasma can tune seven HD channels. Of course, the channel numbers aren't the channel numbers that Comcast uses, since I don't have a STB or CableCard to map them. If the Series 3 can't do this, it may be a dealbreaker from me. Why? Because AFAIK you need to upgrade to a digital package to be able to get a CableCard, and the cheapest digital package here in Seattle is $58. That's over $500 a year more than what I'm paying now. Sure, I'd get more channels, but I wouldn't watch most of them. I'd rather save that $500/yr and get a fancy new TV every four years or so. (At least that is the argument I use on my wife to justify these purchases! )


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Series 3 channel mapping has been discussed in another thread, but for now, let's carry on with it here.

TiVo has a *link* on their website for people to sign up for email alerts regarding Series 3. The page also accesses a pop-up which answers questions about CableCARDS. TiVo states the following with regards to Series 3 functionality without a CableCARD:

*"Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?

The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, you will require (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels."*

TiVo's description of Series 3's capabilities with regards to using it without CableCARDS limits Series 3 to less than what it should be. QAM cable channels which mirror ATSC OTA channels should be delivered unscrambled and included in the lowest tier of basic cable. Series 3 shouldn't require a CableCARD to receive them. However TiVo is probably being intentionally oversimplistic by covering its "ask me no questions" about a somewhat complicated issue from a legal perspective.

TiVo is apparently concerned enough about users' experiences with CableCARDS to provide this *link* as well. From reading TiVo's description of Series 3 functionality it appears that Series 3 may be seriously handicapped without CableCARDS and may be more of a niche product than it should be. If Series 3 can't map digital OTA and cable channels automatically without using CableCARDS but won't allow users to manually map channel line-ups, it's a loser!

If TiVo is going to hold prospective Series 3 users hostage to CableCARDS I'll resell my TiVo Lifetime Gift Card at a loss and cut my losses right there! ($600. is expensive but less than I paid, and that price will include delivery by Registered Mail as well as the original receipt for the Gift Card.)


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## AVSman (Mar 17, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> [...snip...] If Series 3 can't map digital OTA and cable channels automatically without using CableCARDS but won't allow users to manually map channel line-ups, it's a loser! [...snip...]


I agree 100%. Hopefully someone at TiVo is listening.

If the Series 3 doesn't initially offer this capability, am I correct in assuming it theoretically could be added through a software update?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

What about the "supported" OTA HD lineup via antenna? This is new territory for Tivo. How long will it take them to get channels mappings for all areas of the country? Will this even be a problem, or am I stressing over nothing?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

AVSman said:


> I agree 100%. Hopefully someone at TiVo is listening.
> 
> If the Series 3 doesn't initially offer this capability, am I correct in assuming it theoretically could be added through a software update?


Do you believe the current hardware (series 2) has the capability now, It could be done in the TiVo hardware if TiVo wanted but I don't think it can be done with just a software upgrade. I don't think TiVo puts anything in the hardware they don't have to for cost reasons, the channel mapping is now done in their servers not in each TiVo itself. The channel information is held in the hard drive of the TiVo (downloaded from the TiVo servers) and called up as needed. (that why changing channels can be slow) The cable can change their lineup 3 times a month as long as the cable box and or CC re-map to the published lineup the customer would not know. The cable co may use this as a form of scrambling to get people to use cable boxes or CC. I can't even re-map the TV channels on my computers ATI TV, it comes in from an external source, I just have to give out my ZIP and cable service and the correct info comes into my computer


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

greg_burns said:


> What about the "supported" OTA HD lineup via antenna? This is new territory for Tivo.


Not exactly new territory. TiVos have been doing this for 2 years on the HD DTiVos. Though I think its D* who manages this, not TiVo.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

AVSman said:


> If the Series 3 can't do this, it may be a dealbreaker from me. Why? Because AFAIK you need to upgrade to a digital package to be able to get a CableCard


I've been trying to figure this out as well and am finding the Comcast package info less than helpful. It's very helpful in telling you how to buy the big, expensive packages but they sure do hide the information on the cheaper options.

I *THINK* that you can just add the HD package for $5/mo. That would give you the CableCARD and would map the unencrypted and HD channels.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Larry in TN said:


> I *THINK* that you can just add the HD package for $5/mo. That would give you the CableCARD and would map the unencrypted and HD channels.


Wouldn't that be sweet, but I am doubtful.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> If Series 3 can't map digital OTA and cable channels automatically without using CableCARDS but won't allow users to manually map channel line-ups, it's a loser!


CableCARDs shouldn't have anything to do with digital (ATSC) OTA channels. OTA is OTA, not cable. The OTA channels should map just like OTA channels map with a S2.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Larry in TN said:


> CableCARDs shouldn't have anything to do with digital (ATSC) OTA channels. OTA is OTA, not cable. The OTA channels should map just like OTA channels map with a S2.


True for OTA HD, but the HD "in the clear" over cable (QAM) is not normally even listed in cable channel guide info. Hence the need for manually mappings.

Take a look a zap2it's guide data for non-digital cable in your area. I don't see my HD QAM channels listed at all.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

(About Comcast - )


Larry in TN said:


> I *THINK* that you can just add the HD package for $5/mo. That would give you the CableCARD and would map the unencrypted and HD channels.


I know someone at work who has done exactly that (well, she doesn't use Cablecard as far as I know; I assume this is with a Comcast set top box). I questioned her extensively  and she said she is only paying the extra $5; she did not have to also sign up for digital cable (the SD digital channels).


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Larry in TN said:


> CableCARDs shouldn't have anything to do with digital (ATSC) OTA channels. OTA is OTA, not cable. The OTA channels should map just like OTA channels map with a S2.


Logic supports you. I expect that Series 3 will automatically map OTA ATSC from TiVo's database, and all current fears will be moot! But who knows at this point?

I still want the ability to manually map QAM line-ups without a CableCARD if necessary because all OTA ATSC is mirrored on QAM Limited Basic by Comcast in my area and Limited Basic even includes a couple of channels which aren't available from Comcast's digital STB. If the much maligned TVGOS can do it I expect no less from Series 3!


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

lessd said:


> Do you believe the current hardware (series 2) has the capability now, It could be done in the TiVo hardware if TiVo wanted but I don't think it can be done with just a software upgrade.


The function we are talking about is ABSOLUTELY a software function that would require no new hardware beyond what we know is going to be in the Series 3.

Just about anyone that has ever written any computer code could understand the logic required to write the code required.

I hope that the CableCARD FAQs are "dumbed down" and don't necessary reflect the absence of this feature. Granted, it's likely to be used by a subset of users, but what everyone is forgetting is this would be a feature that's NOT AVAILABLE ON ANY CABLE DVR.

Yes, it might be considered an advanced feature, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON for Tivo NOT to include this ability.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> I still want the ability to manually map QAM line-ups without a CableCARD ...
> 
> If the much maligned TVGOS can do it I expect no less from Series 3!


LOL! I agree 100%!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> ...If the much maligned TVGOS can do it I expect no less from Series 3!


But realize, here, that you are comparing a program guide (TVGOS) to hardware (Series 3). It's not the TVGOS that allows it, it's the Sony hardware (DHG unit). Either that or it IS TVGOS, but then you have to compare that to the Tribune Media Services which provides TiVo the guide.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bdraw said:


> What would you guys of asked the beta tester if you were able to to?


HAVE ASKED! HAVE ASKED! HAVE ASKED! ARRGH.... not "of asked"! Man, that drives me NUTS... if you couldn't tell.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

MickeS said:


> HAVE HASKED!


Typos in grammar nazi posts drive ME nuts!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Of course, that's not really a question of grammar. I don't even really know what it is. But it seems people think it makes sense.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

MickeS said:


> Of course, that's not really a question of grammar. I don't even really know what it is. But it seems people think it makes sense.


It's a misunderstanding of contractions like "could've" or "would've". They get erroneously expanded to "could of" or "would of" which leads to "what would you of asked"... but we're straying a bit from the topic of this thread.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> Yes, it might be considered an advanced feature, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON for Tivo NOT to include this ability.


Ouch, there ya go. Knowing Tivo's history on other such things, it now will never happen.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> The function we are talking about is ABSOLUTELY a software function that would require no new hardware beyond what we know is going to be in the Series 3.
> 
> Just about anyone that has ever written any computer code could understand the logic required to write the code required.
> 
> ...


It is a software function on their servers that provide data to each TiVo group. (by ZIP etc.) The special lineup you are talking about can't be translated by the TiVo hardware cause its too dumb, all the heavy lifting is done at the TiVo servers and then gos to the TiVo hard drive. I don't think they will let us mess with the channel lineup on the servers. (but I agree they could let us do it at their servers without any hardware changes) TiVos do not have channel translation hardware in them as their would no need (in the past) as the data on the hard drive does the translation. IE if TiVo thinks the data for say channel 321 is CBS-HD the hard drive would get the tuning code for channel 231 and the data to go with it. For the user to change it at the TiVo the hardware the TiVo would have to have a user changeable translation table in hardware (non volatile RAM) so you could set channel 231 from 231 (defult) to say 88.9. In my humble opinion it can't and will not happen.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

lessd said:


> It is a software function on their servers that provide data to each TiVo group. (by ZIP etc.) The special lineup you are talking about can't be translated by the TiVo hardware cause its too dumb, all the heavy lifting is done at the TiVo servers and then gos to the TiVo hard drive. I don't think they will let us mess with the channel lineup on the servers. (but I agree they could let us do it at their servers without any hardware changes) TiVos do not have channel translation hardware in them as their would no need (in the past) as the data on the hard drive does the translation. IE if TiVo thinks the data for say channel 321 is CBS-HD the hard drive would get the tuning code for channel 231 and the data to go with it. For the user to change it at the TiVo the hardware the TiVo would have to have a user changeable translation table in hardware (non volatile RAM) so you could set channel 231 from 231 (defult) to say 88.9. In my humble opinion it can't and will not happen.


Forget hardware (other than what's already done for storage and page management).

Forget the Tivo servers.

Neither would be involved in the function required.

Tivo ALREADY has a channel map that's presumably populated loaded during setup (and updated when there is a channel change). At worst, the programmers would have to add another column to an existing table. At best, they have to provide another function to allow the end user to edit a value in the existing table. In either case, the resulting map is stored wherever the current table is. Unless you have a cable system with thousands of channels, it's not going to impact anything.

"It can't happen" is flat out wrong. Take a look at the channel editor on a Sony DHG box - that box has a guided setup similar to Tivo's, loads a channel map similar to Tivo's. Although there's no reason to have such a channel map function on a Series 2, the only logical difference in the mapping is that you can edit the tuner value on the DHG. It's clear you have a problem understanding the concept here; it's really not that complicated or "expensive", programming wise.

As for will not happen ... we'll have to wait and see.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

lessd said:


> It is a software function on their servers that provide data to each TiVo group. (by ZIP etc.) The special lineup you are talking about can't be translated by the TiVo hardware cause its too dumb, all the heavy lifting is done at the TiVo servers and then gos to the TiVo hard drive. I don't think they will let us mess with the channel lineup on the servers. (but I agree they could let us do it at their servers without any hardware changes) TiVos do not have channel translation hardware in them as their would no need (in the past) as the data on the hard drive does the translation. IE if TiVo thinks the data for say channel 321 is CBS-HD the hard drive would get the tuning code for channel 231 and the data to go with it. For the user to change it at the TiVo the hardware the TiVo would have to have a user changeable translation table in hardware (non volatile RAM) so you could set channel 231 from 231 (defult) to say 88.9. In my humble opinion it can't and will not happen.


 Is it not possible to setup a proxy such that you can spoof the Tivo to obtain guide listings from somewhere other than the Tivo servers? For ReplayTV hackers did exactly this allowing guide data to be obtained from zap2it DataDirect instead of the RTV servers and also allowing one to re-map channels if desired. I'm not familiar with Tivo hacking as I have never owned one (but I am waiting for the S3).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

moyekj said:


> Is it not possible to setup a proxy such that you can spoof the Tivo to obtain guide listings from somewhere other than the Tivo servers? For ReplayTV hackers did exactly this allowing guide data to be obtained from zap2it DataDirect instead of the RTV servers and also allowing one to re-map channels if desired. I'm not familiar with Tivo hacking as I have never owned one (but I am waiting for the S3).


I realize you were thinking of a way to get functionality you might not have otherwise but it boils down to a discussion some would want to have to avoid paying the subscription fee so this would be theft of service which is not allowed for discussion here.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

lessd said:


> It is a software function on their servers that provide data to each TiVo group. (by ZIP etc.) The special lineup you are talking about can't be translated by the TiVo hardware cause its too dumb, all the heavy lifting is done at the TiVo servers and then gos to the TiVo hard drive. I don't think they will let us mess with the channel lineup on the servers. (but I agree they could let us do it at their servers without any hardware changes) . . .


I'm slightly confused. Why would one want to manually map channels?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I'm slightly confused. Why would one want to manually map channels?


Speaking for myself, I want to do it to be able to tune QAM "HD in the clear" channels (major networks only) via *basic cable*. So that I am not forced to upgrade to digital package + CC. I am concerned that Tivo will not include these channels in its guide data for analog cable.

I don't think it is a simple as manually remapping channels. If the guide data doesn't include these channels to begin with (zapit doesn't for analog cable) then there isn't any channel number to remap.

It was mentioned that it may be possible (with Comcast) to get these HD channels with CC but without the digital package for much less. I am skeptical though.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

I'm very confused about this discussion of QAM in the clear HD channels and the need to map them on the S3.

In the NY DMA, the SD network channels are 2 (CBS), 4 (NBC), 5 (FOX), and 7 (ABC) via antenna, cable signal without the box, and cable with the box - an SA-8300HD with Sara software.,

On the SA-8300HD, these same network channels are available in HD on 702, 704, 705, and 707.

I have an LG 42PX4D Plasma TV, which can handle ATSC/QAM, and I hooked the cable line up to the LG, ran a scan, and automatically saw these same HD network channels on 2-1, 4-1, 5-1, and 7-1.

The LG has the same TVGOS software discussed earlier, but I didn't have to do amy manual mapping to get 2-1, 4-1, etc. The scan was enough.

Does this mean that Cablevision is sending a signal on the frequency used for CBS-HD that says map it to 2-1, which would be the over-the-air channel? Cablevision maps this channel to 715 on the box, so why wouldn't it be 715 on the TV without the box?

If Cablevision didn't include some signal, how would the LG TV know to display CBS-HD on 2-1, versus some other random channel based on the frequency?

Why wouldn't the S3 TiVo work the same for me: do a scan, and see CBS-HD on 2-1 without the need for manual mapping without usinga cable card?

_Edited to add: "without using a cable card"_


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

drew2k said:


> . . . Does this mean that Cablevision is sending a signal on the frequency used for CBS-HD that says map it to 2-1, which would be the over-the-air channel? Cablevision maps this channel to 715 on the box, so why wouldn't it be 715 on the TV without the box?


What does DMA stand for?

My SA8300HD maps the HD version of CBS to 702. The SD version is on 2.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

drew2k said:


> I have an LG 42PX4D Plasma TV, which can handle ATSC/QAM, and I hooked the cable line up to the LG, ran a scan, and automatically saw these same HD network channels on 2-1, 4-1, 5-1, and 7-1.


Are you sure you tuned the cable QAM stations and not the OTA ATSC ones?

On my Sony I have to run a scan on each tuner and then can toggle between them via the ANT button on the remote.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> What does DMA stand for?


Designated Market Area. It's how the national television markets are ranked by Nielsen.



> My SA8300HD maps the HD version of CBS to 702. The SD version is on 2.


Exactly ... so why can my LG TV - NOT using hte calbe box, using only the cable - see the QAM HD CBS channel on 2-1 without having to manually map anything?

This sounds like the perfect situation for the S3, as 2-1 Cable QAM is the same as 2-1 OTA.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

greg_burns said:


> Are you sure you tuned the cable QAM stations and not the OTA ATSC ones?
> 
> On my Sony I have to run a scan on each tuner and then can toggle between them via the ANT button on the remote.


I have no external antennas hooked up to the TV, just the cable line, so I'm definitely seeing the QAM 2-1 channel. (And I don't have a cable card either.)

I'll try to capture some screen images later - have to run to a family breakfast now!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I'm slightly confused. Why would one want to manually map channels?


To save money!! On my Comcast cable system (for example) CBS-HD is on channel 89.2 in the clear which means with my Sony TV without a cable card I can watch CBS-HD (and all the other networks in HD) without paying for digital cable or a CC. I don't know if that would be considered thief of cable service or not. When I had the CC installed in my TV CBS-HD went to channel 233 which is what the line up card from Comcast gives for CBS-HD. In the early days of cable before cable ready TV were common some cable co.s put like HBO on cable channel 15 in the clear as people without a cable box or cable ready TV could not tune it in. As people got cable ready TVs the cable co.s had to go to a scrambling system to protect the pay content.


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## andyf (Feb 23, 2000)

drew2k said:


> I have no external antennas hooked up to the TV, just the cable line, so I'm definitely seeing the QAM 2-1 channel. (And I don't have a cable card either.)
> 
> I'll try to capture some screen images later - have to run to a family breakfast now!


You just happen to be lucky that Cablevision transmits the QAM channels on easy to remember channel numbers.

Our local networks are on the usual 2,4,5,9,13 etc with HD versions on 302,304,305,309,313. However without the box and the channel mappings the real channels are 88.1,88.2,88.3,88.4 etc.

That re-mapping is done by the box or the cablecard. The rest of the digital channels are all over the place.

WGN - 113.21
CSPAN - 110.52 etc.

Movies on Demand 82.x. These are fun, you can see what your neigbors are watching. I wonder who was watching TEN? Actually, you can see them choosing a movie to watch. I kept yelling for them to stop on the movie I wanted to see but I guess they didn't hear me.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> But realize, here, that you are comparing a program guide (TVGOS) to hardware (Series 3). It's not the TVGOS that allows it, it's the Sony hardware (DHG unit). Either that or it IS TVGOS, but then you have to compare that to the Tribune Media Services which provides TiVo the guide.


TVGOS presents a prepackaged very long line-up of program sources from both QAM and ATSC. Many but not all such sources are available with multiple listings, especially on the QAM side.

A QAM listing can't be used for ATSC, or vice-versa, as Sony's hardware has separate inputs for cable and antenna. (Series 3 is also going to also have separate inputs for cable and antenna.) However any listing can be assigned any channel number, to which Sony's DVR then tunes. If there's a signal on that channel there's a picture; if there's no signal then a "no signal" banner gets displayed. There is no required intrinsic relationship between program info for a listing and an entered channel number.

So even if TMS provides a less comprehensive line-up of program sources, all Series 3 really requires for manual channel mapping is the ability to enter a user assigned channel number for a listing. What's the theoretical problem?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Montgomery County, MD...

7 - OTA, SD ABC
7.1 OTA, HD ABC
27 - Comcast SD ABC
210 - Comcast with box HD ABC
108.11 - Comcast with unencrypted QAM ABC

QAM lineups change periodically - I rescan with my LG HD tuner and then manually walk through the stations to figure out what network is where. It's unfun, but as mentioned above it's economical. I'd forgo QAM and use OTA exclsuively, except my placement in this concrete highrise blocks signals from ABC... College football and Lost are the most important HD content I watch, so I went the QAM route to get ABC.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

lessd said:


> It is a software function on their servers that provide data to each TiVo group. (by ZIP etc.) The special lineup you are talking about can't be translated by the TiVo hardware cause its too dumb, all the heavy lifting is done at the TiVo servers and then gos to the TiVo hard drive. I don't think they will let us mess with the channel lineup on the servers. (but I agree they could let us do it at their servers without any hardware changes) TiVos do not have channel translation hardware in them as their would no need (in the past) as the data on the hard drive does the translation. IE if TiVo thinks the data for say channel 321 is CBS-HD the hard drive would get the tuning code for channel 231 and the data to go with it. For the user to change it at the TiVo the hardware the TiVo would have to have a user changeable translation table in hardware (non volatile RAM) so you could set channel 231 from 231 (defult) to say 88.9. In my humble opinion it can't and will not happen.


If Series 3 lets a user tune to a channel by inputting numbers (and the digital "dash") from its remote it shouldn't be a big deal to allow the very same input into the EPG database in a user's Series 3, NOT the source servers.

I understand that TiVo seems to think of its users as either complete idiots or hi-tech nerds and may not want to provide a user option for inputting channel numbers. If so, that's the way it's gonna be, of course!

(Megazone, you're (one of) the TiVo Community's resident hi-tech nerd(s) (and I mean that in a cool way!) and you've expressed interest in a TiVo Lifetime Gift Card for (over) $500. Right now your two eBay bids are still leading their respective packs.

If Series 3 doesn't allow manual channel mapping (it'll be obviously too perfect for my needs, and I won't measure up--sorry for the sarcasm but I'll be ticked!) and your bids don't win, I won't agree to a $500. price for a Gift Card but I'll meet you halfway at $550, just to keep it simple!)


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

drew2k said:


> The LG has the same TVGOS software discussed earlier, but I didn't have to do amy manual mapping to get 2-1, 4-1, etc. The scan was enough. [/i]


I can't answer all your questions about your particular reception circumstances, but the TVGOS software in LG's hi-def DVR isn't the same as the improved version in Sony's hi-def DVR.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I'm slightly confused. Why would one want to manually map channels?


To be able to use digital channels that are in the clear on the cable feed.

Most (all?) cable companies require a digital tier of programming to get a DVR or to tune the digital channels transmitted in the clear.

Let's say I have basic cable and I want ABC, which is on cable channel 7. The digital version of that channel is also transmitted in the clear and would be tuned in on cable channel 540 by a cable box. (Remember that 540 isn't what the tuner is going to actually tune - it will be mapped to the corresponding QAM frequency, say 89.1)

If you could tell Tivo "tune QAM 89.1 rather than cable 7" when you ask for ABC, you could get a better quality, usually HD, signal to use when you tune ABC, instead of the analog version without having to pay for a higher level digital package just to get the digital version of the local networks (which are required to be transmitted unencrypted in most cases anyway).


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

jfh3 said:


> Most (all?) cable companies require a digital tier of programming to get a DVR or to tune the digital channels transmitted in the clear.


Actually, ALL cable companies are required to transmit digital versions of any local analog stations they carry in the clear to anyone with any package that contains those local analog stations.

Basically, if your cable company has, say, your local ABC on their lineup, they are required to not encrypt the same stations' digital version (if they carry it).

But remember, digital does not equal HD. (however, usually in this case it does)

That said... it seems the S3 may not handle QAM in any usable fashion? If so, that's a MAJOR bummer that they need to get figured out!

My TV has a QAM tuner but for some reason won't tune in the QAM stations I know are broadcast in the clear in my neighborhood. It was a problem I was hoping to solve in order to use the S3. Maybe I won't have to solve it afterall. However, I really don't want to spent $$$ on an S3 if my only HD option is OTA (I don't pay for digital cable).


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> Actually, ALL cable companies are required to transmit digital versions of any local analog stations they carry in the clear to anyone with any package that contains those local analog stations.


I've kind of wondered if moving the stations around constantly to different QAM channels is the cable companies' way of getting around this. They transmit the channels in the clear, you just don't necessarily know how to find them...


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Brainiac 5 said:


> I've kind of wondered if moving the stations around constantly to different QAM channels is the cable companies' way of getting around this. They transmit the channels in the clear, you just don't necessarily know how to find them...


If one does not order or pay for digital cable but gets a QAM tuner and gets the HD channels that are in the clear..is that *theft of cable *  under the law ???


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

lessd said:


> ..is that *theft of cable *  under the law ???


Re-read the first paragraph of Post #151.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

terryfoster said:


> Let us not confuse Smart Cards and CableCards. Yes some Cable Cos use Smart Cards in their STBs, but those are completely different than CableCards.


whoops sorry- I know the difference- my fingers got ahead of my brain.

LOL


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## AVSman (Mar 17, 2006)

greg_burns said:


> Speaking for myself, I want to do it to be able to tune QAM "HD in the clear" channels (major networks only) via *basic cable*. So that I am not forced to upgrade to digital package + CC. I am concerned that Tivo will not include these channels in its guide data for analog cable.
> 
> I don't think it is a simple as manually remapping channels. If the guide data doesn't include these channels to begin with (zapit doesn't for analog cable) then there isn't any channel number to remap.
> 
> It was mentioned that it may be possible (with Comcast) to get these HD channels with CC but without the digital package for much less. I am skeptical though.


Regarding the guide data not including the HD channels in the analog cable lineup...could a workaround be telling your S3 you have digital cable (which includes the HD channels), and then deleting all the digital channels you don't really have?

If the S3 does allow manually mapping QAM channels, then this could be the other half of the equation to get this all to work (analog cable to S3 w/o CableCard).


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

AVSman said:


> Regarding the guide data not including the HD channels in the analog cable lineup...could a workaround be telling your S3 you have digital cable (which includes the HD channels), and then deleting all the digital channels you don't really have?
> 
> If the S3 does allow manually mapping QAM channels, then this could be the other half of the equation to get this all to work (analog cable to S3 w/o CableCard).


I was thinking along the same lines, but not sure it would work. I assume the S3 will think digital cable channels involve tuning via a CableCard only. But who knows?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

pdhenry said:


> Re-read the first paragraph of Post #151.


Is the term "required to carry in the clear", still mean that without paying for digital cable its not thief of cable to watch. Extended basic is in the clear (analog) but I know that if you don't pay for it but watch it, it is theft of cable. (if the cable co did not get around to blocking the signal of extended basic and you did not tamper with their blocking then I don't think they could or would charge you with thief of cable but I know in my gut it still is using a service that your not paying for) The cable co I use charges for all digital cable but the network HD is in the clear so I could buy a HD QAM tuner TV and not tell my cable co and watch HD digital for free, I don't think I would land in the clink if I did but I still think it's Thief of Cable, it just up to now most people could not tune it without a digital cable box. If the series 3 made it very easy to do that the cable co may start to do something to block digital signals that a customer was not paying for.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

The digital broadcast channels are availalble with limitted basic which is the lowest price tier you can get from a cable company. Therefore you are always paying for the digital broadcast channels. 

Any digital channels the cable company doesn't want you to receive will be scrambled or blocked.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

lessd said:


> Is the term "required to carry in the clear", still mean that without paying for digital cable its not thief of cable to watch.


Yes, it does mean that it's not theft of cable. The reason they are required to carry the local channels in the clear is so that anyone with cable service can receive them (in other words, they must be part of the "basic" tier). You being able to receive them without paying extra is the entire purpose of the requirement.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> If Series 3 doesn't allow manual channel mapping (it'll be obviously too perfect for my needs, and I won't measure up--sorry for the sarcasm but I'll be ticked!) and your bids don't win, I won't agree to a $500. price for a Gift Card but I'll meet you halfway at $550, just to keep it simple!)


Well, if I haven't won one of those two auctions (I'd be surprised), I'll take it. ;-) I don't think it'll have manual mapping, at least not to start.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Series 3 comming 9/17 at $799

See here


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

megazone said:


> Well, if I haven't won one of those two auctions (I'd be surprised), I'll take it. ;-) I don't think it'll have manual mapping, at least not to start.


I'll be surprised too if you win a Lifetime Gift Card for $505. But you never know! I'll be following the eBay listings.

As far as the Series 3, I too now suspect that it may not offer manual channel mapping.

I'll order a Series 3 to personally evaluate it if it can be returned within the first 30 days with no obligation. Perhaps using it with just one CableCARD will work for me.

I primarily want a DVR which integrates digital and analog OTA channel listings with digital and analog cable listings. I don't need to record two premium channels at the same time or hi-def nearly as much as just two standard-def digital channels. It will be interesting to see if CableCARD actually causes Series 3 to lose reception of several channels.

Now that I realize that *TiVo* acknowledges that my Lifetime Gift Card won't expire in two years because of state law, I don't know what makes the most sense to do if Series 3 doesn't cut it. Realistically it still might be best to just move on and sell the Gift Card. I dunno'!


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> Actually, ALL cable companies are required to transmit digital versions of any local analog stations they carry in the clear to anyone with any package that contains those local analog stations.
> 
> Basically, if your cable company has, say, your local ABC on their lineup, they are required to not encrypt the same stations' digital version (if they carry it).
> 
> But remember, digital does not equal HD. (however, usually in this case it does)


NO, sorry that is a vastly overstated intrepretation of the FCC rule. It's all up to interpretation and I haven't seen a single case of QAM encrypting getting turned over yet.


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Exactly ... so why can my LG TV - NOT using hte calbe box, using only the cable - see the QAM HD CBS channel on 2-1 without having to manually map anything?


Your cable company is passing the PSIP data which automatically maps the channels for you. My TWC division does the same thing.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

In my case, Comcast (Suscom PA for about the next week) shows the local HD channels on the lineup card as being part of Basic service, up in the ~250 range.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

terryfoster said:


> Your cable company is passing the PSIP data which automatically maps the channels for you. My TWC division does the same thing.


Thanks. Finally, a reason to like Cablevision!


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> ...I won't agree to a $500 price for a Gift Card but I'll meet you halfway at $550, just to keep it simple!)





megazone said:


> Well, if I haven't won one of those two auctions (I'd be surprised), I'll take it. ;-) I don't think it'll have manual mapping, at least not to start.


Hey guy, why don't you send me a PM?

Your contributions to these Forums are cool. I managed to get Lifetime Service relatively cheap from a Series 1 which was Lifetimed before January 20, 2000, so you can have the Gift Card for $550. Of course it's your choice.

You have several options. The first obviously is to decide whether or not you want a Gift Card for $550. (If not just reply to this post!)

I'm going to be out of town for two weeks starting the middle of next week. If you want the Card, do you want it quick or slow, before or after that two week period? Either PayPal or a check by snailmail will work.

Betcha' Series 3 will be available by Fall (Sept. 22)!


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

PM sent.


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