# Is Tivo actually trying to lose customers?



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

Is Tivo just _trying_ to piss off long time fans???

First we had the problem with playing MP3s. Originally they played fine. But then some update screwed it up and now the vast majority of users have problems with MP3s advancing from one song to the next. Tivo is aware of the problem and has never bothered to fix it, even though they still advertise Tivo's ability to play music--including MP3s. And of course, every time I call Tivo support they claim this is the first time Tivo support has ever heard about this--even though I myself have called about it many times as have many people I know.

Then we had the Stream and Android. Don't get me wrong, it was just good sense to do IOS first. (I'm an Android user...) But the Tivo CEO did an interview shortly after Stream came out and promised Stream for Android very shortly. That was a year and a half ago.

Now we have Pandora. A lot of us used and loved this app. Now, it's no longer available unless you use HD menus. For many Tivo users who are very happy with the SD menus--and despise the HD menus--this is just a slap in the face. And the new app is nowhere near as good as the old app.

If you like the HD menus, that's great. Tivo gives you the option to use either HD or SD menus. That's what Tivo should be about, giving the user the best experience possible. With the latest update though, you're stuck with HD menus if you want to use Pandora. For me, and many others, the HD menus are not intuitive and annoying. For everyone, they are a lot slower than SD menus. There is nothing about the HD menus I like, and a lot I don't like. Before, that was fine, I just used the SD menus. Tivo was fast, intuitive, friendly. I would never have bought three Tivos with lifetime service if I knew I would be stuck with these horrible HD menus.

I've had a Tivo from very near the beginning. I've been a huge fan and recommended Tivo to everyone I know. Now, I tell people to stay away from Tivo. Tivo has lied to me, Tivo has failed to even try to fix MP3 problems, Tivo has continually degraded my experience over the years. Yes, I have HD recording now. So does Comcast. Yes I have Pandora. So does many other devices. In the past Tivo just did everything better than everyone else. Now, they seem determined to do it worse.

I've been a huge fan for years. I put up with losing MP3 playback and seeing Tivo still advertise it. I was still a fan. I put up with the CEO lying about Android stream support. I was still a fan. Pandora is the last straw. I am no longer a fan. If I didn't have lifetime service, I'd dump Tivo today.

Tivo, if you want to get back a lot of fans you are losing, fix these problems. If you can't fix MP3 playback, just say so and stop advertising local music file playback. If you can't implement Stream for Android, just say so. Apologize for promising it "shortly" when clearly you could not deliver. And for God's sake, give us back the old Pandora app, or at least let us access Pandora via the SD menus.

Tivo, try being Tivo again.


----------



## lgnad (Feb 14, 2013)

Complain to Pandora, they made the app and shut down the old version, not TiVo. With The new way apps are created, hopefully they will continue to update it and add whatever features/functionality you feel the new version is lacking.

I thank Tivo for continuing to expand its capabilities so that we have more modern, current versions of apps and the infrastructure for more apps to be able to be hopefully quickly ported over, instead of dying/fading out on the niche/dead adobe flash platform, and rewarded them by purchasing a Roamio.

It could be argued that getting rid of SD IS giving people the best experience possible. Adding apps/features/functionality and ensuring that they run in both environments greatly increases cost, software overhead, time to build/test and odds of problems/bugs and put huge limits UI design.

Keeping the SD screens around makes it look not high-tech, up-to-date, sexy, whichever way you want to say it. Just look at the comments from folks about the few remaining SD screens.

I had forgotten you can play mp3's. I cant even remember how! lol Don't recall it being discussed on here, either. Ok, share it through TiVo desktop. Wow, looks like a dvd player from 10 years ago. I don't doubt its quirky, I only tested it for about 40 minutes. Hopefully they'll replace that with something more functional in HD soon, or maybe with a more functional full blown app at some point.

Compare TiVo's to say, phones. Premiere platform is almost four years old. A four year old phone is ancient. Full price of a new phone is 500-700 and you have to pay for service, so theres a lot of parallels. Most Android phones get a few (or only one or two) OS updates and then get abandoned. Tivo on the other hand, continues to update the Premiere's software with all of the latest features of the new line. 

Ive had a stream, Ipad and Android phone so I understand your frustration in that area. The android app has always been a step or two behind. Obviously, they bit off more than they can chew and there are tech issues with the protocol being supported by older versions of Android

The old Pandora should still be on series 3's? Maybe that's your solution. SD menus, old Pandora, no need to worry about anything changing.


----------



## PaJo (Dec 17, 2001)

We had Tivos from the old Dtivo series 1 days and mostly only used them for time shifting TV shows, I did use pytivo for playing local music & videos and still have Galleon running on a Raspberry pi feeding traffic cams to our Tivo that we some time use but for Pandora and all other streaming we now use the Roku, heck we now even have a Roku channel for the same traffic cams as on the Tivo. Tivo and Roku make a very good pair, but Roku keeps getting better for me, unfortunately, Roku can not time shift TV shows yet. With all the channels on Roku, having a dvr service is becoming less important for me, if Comcast would add a Roku channel for it's customers with all the latest shows on demand, I would not even need a dvr. In the early days Tivo was the only way to go, but times change. 

I do keep a set top HD media player and file server for my personal collection of Blu-Ray backups. I am pretty happy with our HD Tivo, but not sure if we will replace it when it dies, whereas every TV in the house has a Roku, and ability to stream our local content. I don't get angry with Tivo, it still does everything I purchased it to do, and having used Tivo for over a decade it may be hard to adjust to not hearing the beeps whenever selecting channels while watching regular tv.

On edit: I forgot, the Raspbberry Pi that runs galleon server for our Tivo is also a mp3 player that plays music 24/7 and I feed that to my A/V receiver along with the CCTV signal from our security cameras so when we are not watching TV the music plays 24/7 , and if we have the TV on we can see the various video cameras. It plays whatever mp3s are on the USB drive I insert. It's not a pretty setup programming wise but works 24/7 and doesn't crash.


----------



## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

Nak said:


> But then some update screwed it up and now the vast majority of users have problems with MP3s advancing from one song to the next.


Citation? I doubt the majority of Tivo users make use of this. Don't just assume that TCF (or any discussion forum on any topic) is a representative sample of the masses.


----------



## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

I use Pandora a lot, but since I skipped right over the Premiere and use it on my S3, iPad, and now Roamio, I had no idea ... So, there are workarounds. S3s are great!

I didn't know there was anyone else who doesn't like the current interface, but I'm someone who always prefers choices and simplicity. I hate the Discovery Bar because it takes up so much real estate and isn't something I use at all. If there was a choice to delete that, and have Tivo Central use the space, I'd be really happy. But, I have vision issues which complicate things. I'll be keeping my S3 to more easily see recordings on my Roamio - kludgy, but it's the best workaround for me. The highlight on a program makes the text not readable for me, so I have to scroll up or down away from it to read it. Yeah - I miss the old interface, but what can I do? It works for nearly everyone else.

Still love Tivo!


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

MP3 Playback. It really doesn't matter if you yourself use it or not. The fact is that Tivo is still advertising that the Tivo will stream the music on your PC. Tivo advertises their box as a home media system, and they specifically include your music collection on your PC. They advertise it, they sell you software they claim will stream music, but the Tivo has been incapable of streaming your own music collection for years. Yes, not many people use this feature anymore, because it is broken. It used to be the best way to play your music collection, now that feature doesn't work. So, why are they still advertising that feature? Hmmm? 


> Listen to the music library on your PC-on your TV's sound system.
> Your own music library. You no longer need headphones to enjoy your computer's personal music library. With TiVo Desktop software it's simple to stream the tunes you love the most on your TV or home entertainment system. Rock on.


 I just copied that quote five minutes ago from the Tivo website.

Back when Tivo actually streamed music properly, it was a major selling point. I recommended the Tivo with that feature being a major selling point. Lot's of folks bought a lifetime Tivo with personal music playback being a major factor in their decision. Many of those are no longer Tivo users, in large part due to Tivo's inability to stream local music properly. That's business that Tivo has lost for want of a simple fix.

Like I said, if you like the HD menus that's great. I, and everyone I know, despise them. If you prefer form over function--and there is nothing wrong with that--the HD menus are great. For those of us that just want to get to content simply and intuitively the HD menus are a significant downgrade. There's nothing wrong with the SD menus as far as resolution either. I have a 138" screen and the SD menus look just fine even on that screen size. Even if the HD menus were lightning fast, I still wouldn't like them. I don't need all the extra material on the screen. I much prefer to just get to the content I want with a minimum of fuss. Again, everybody I know prefers the SD menus. I'm not saying that Tivo shouldn't have HD menus, obviously lots of users like them. As long as I--and people like me--can use the SD menus then everyone is happy. What's wrong with that?

Yes, the Pandora app is written by Pandora. How it is accessed is all Tivo. To suggest that anyone other than Tivo took had a hand in the decision to remove it from the SD menus is ludicrous.

BTW, my statements are based on personal experience and the experience of dozens of friends and family that are now, or used to be--Tivo users. I may be an advanced user, but most I know aren't. I won't claim my feelings are the majority consensus. However, since dozens of people I know agree with my position--and no one I know doesn't--it's fairly likely that there are many others with similar viewpoints. Even if we are just a substantial minority, the impact on Tivo's bottom line will be significant. There's no reason to irritate any current users over these issues. Fixing the issues wouldn't hurt anyone.

1. The Stream: Apologize for the CEO's promise from 1-1/2 years ago concerning Android and stream. I wonder how many Android users bought a Stream based on the CEO's promise? More than a few. Allow Android users to return their useless stream for a full refund.

2. Fix MP3 playback. It used to work fine. There's no reason it can't be fixed. If they can't--or won't--fix it, then STOP advertising this capability.

3. Pandora. Put access back in the SD menus. Obviously a simple fix.

I understand being a Tivo fan. I was too just a few weeks ago. But seriously, can anyone really argue that it's smart--or fair--to shrink the pool of Tivo fans by failing to deliver on promises, by false advertising, by degrading the Tivo experience for some users for absolutely no benefit to anyone else?

I understand that some will be unhappy with change in certain areas, and that many others will appreciate that same change. That's not the point. Taking Pandora out of the SD menus did not help anyone, it only hurt those that prefer the SD menus. Falsely advertising local music streaming helps nobody. It only irritates and offends those that want to use that feature. Making a mistake when promising future upgrades happens. But if it does, then apologize and make it right with those that spent money based on that promise.

Tivo used to be very user-centric. These issues show a disturbing trend away from that.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Nak said:


> First we had the problem with playing MP3s. Originally they played fine. But then some update screwed it up and now the vast majority of users have problems with MP3s advancing from one song to the next.


That bug's been there for years and years. They haven't touched the MP3 player code in ages. If you reboot the TiVo, it will fix it. If you can avoid trick play of the MP3s (skipping tracks, etc.), it tends to remain stable. It's also sometimes possible to get it working properly again without rebooting, but I haven't completely figured out what's needed for that.


----------



## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I love my TiVos but admit there are many problems with them, and TiVo doesn't seem to want to fix them. I just ignore the problems.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Then just switch to a better DVR platform if you don't like TiVo... that's right, there is no better platform. I'd add their disgusting patent psudo-trolling to the list of bad things, even though it's not directly related to the product, it just shows a low level of morality at a corporate level.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I'm not defending them, but *AS WELL AS* calling them, write up bugs at forum.tivo.com too.. They seem to be a BIT more responsive there (though I admit I have to add some more info about a few of the issues I'm seeing with the iPad app still happening)..


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

wmcbrine said:


> That bug's been there for years and years. They haven't touched the MP3 player code in ages. If you reboot the TiVo, it will fix it. If you can avoid trick play of the MP3s (skipping tracks, etc.), it tends to remain stable. It's also sometimes possible to get it working properly again without rebooting, but I haven't completely figured out what's needed for that.


Absolutely it's been years, I was just listing the straws that broke the camel's back. It's been years since Local music playbck has been broken, it's been years since Tivo knew it was broken, and yet they still advertise it as a feature. Agreed, if you don't do anything like fast forward, rewind, skip back, skip forward, then it seems to play OK for a while. But I think that those simple functions are widely regarded as integral to music playback these days.

It's actually fairly stupid from a business point of view. For years Tivo has known that local music playback is broken, and yet they continue to advertise that feature. It's pretty amazing that one of the class action attorneys hasn't noticed this yet. However, it is inevitable that one will and Tivo has zero legal leg to stand on. It is a certainty that the settlement will be far, far, in excess of the cost to fix the code. Potentially many millions of dollars. I'm not a litigious guy, and I won't be the one starting this, but some Tivo owner will. There are significant financial benefits for both the first person to bring the flaw to an attorney and to the attorneys who start the class action suit.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Claiming the HD menus are "slower" than the SD menus for "all users" is gibberish. They are not, actually, slower in many setups since the hardware has advanced since 2000.


----------



## LoPan12 (Jan 31, 2014)

...didn't even know I could stream MP3s from my computer...huh...


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

Grakthis said:


> Claiming the HD menus are "slower" than the SD menus for "all users" is gibberish. They are not, actually, slower in many setups since the hardware has advanced since 2000.


The HD menus are in fact slower on every Tivo made. That's simple fact. More pixels and more data takes time to process. On a Premiere--hardly circa 2000--the HD menus are significantly slower. I have not tried a Roamio, so I have no idea if the HD menus are significantly slower on those. I'm not claiming or suggesting you shouldn't like the HD menus. Personal preference is all that matters with any entertainment. If you like the HD menus that's great. I'm not even hinting that there is anything wrong with that. But the simple fact is that more than a few users do not like the HD menus for several different reasons. I, my friends, my family and my wife despise them. That is our preference as is liking the HD menus yours. You seem offended that I don't share your preferences???

It is also simple fact that allowing access to Pandora through the SD menus would have zero impact on you using the HD menus. I can understand that you don't care, since you like the HD menus. What you should care about is that negative impact to Tivo's bottom line risks the value of your lifetime subscription. If Tivo is driven out of business by a class action lawsuit, your lifetime subscription will be worthless.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Nak said:


> The HD menus are in fact slower on every Tivo made.


 You're misinterpreting the statement (I think). My claim, and I think the other poster's claim, is that the Roamio HDUI is faster than the SDUI on models like the Nightlight Series 2. I recently decommisioned my last of those, and it was slow! Changing channels was slow, communication with other TiVos was ridiculously slow, Season Pass Management was ridiculously slow.


----------



## kherr (Aug 1, 2006)

LoPan12 said:


> ...didn't even know I could stream MP3s from my computer...huh...


What's an MP3????


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

CrispyCritter said:


> You're misinterpreting the statement (I think). My claim, and I think the other poster's claim, is that the Roamio HDUI is faster than the SDUI on models like the Nightlight Series 2. I recently decommisioned my last of those, and it was slow! Changing channels was slow, communication with other TiVos was ridiculously slow, Season Pass Management was ridiculously slow.


 With current software sure. I just got rid of a Series 2 that had no software updates in many years. (I didn't allow it access to the internet, but because of the lifetime subscription it made an excellent local music streamer. I used the original backup Hard drive to get back to a state that actually streamed correctly. It finally died.  ) Anyways, it was plenty fast through all the menus. Much, much faster than my premiere is with HD menus. Yes, my Series 2 that got updates slowed way down. I'm sure that Tivo didn't intentionally send updates that would slow the Series 2 down.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Please stop with the class action nonsense. The MP3 player is neglected and broken, yes; but nevertheless, it does actually work, even if it doesn't work as well as we'd want it to. There's no false advertising there.


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

I'll respectfully disagree with your assertion that local music playback works, but I completely agree that more than enough has been said on the subject. Rant over. 

BTW, thanks for all of your work for the community. :up: It is much appreciated.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Nak said:


> It is also simple fact that allowing access to Pandora through the SD menus would have zero impact on you using the HD menus,


How do you know this? Pandora owns their own app, so they must have had some reason for making it HD only. Have you reached out to them?


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Nak said:


> The HD menus are in fact slower on every Tivo made. That's simple fact. More pixels and more data takes time to process. On a Premiere--hardly circa 2000--the HD menus are significantly slower. I have not tried a Roamio, so I have no idea if the HD menus are significantly slower on those. I'm not claiming or suggesting you shouldn't like the HD menus. Personal preference is all that matters with any entertainment. If you like the HD menus that's great. I'm not even hinting that there is anything wrong with that. But the simple fact is that more than a few users do not like the HD menus for several different reasons. I, my friends, my family and my wife despise them. That is our preference as is liking the HD menus yours. You seem offended that I don't share your preferences???
> 
> It is also simple fact that allowing access to Pandora through the SD menus would have zero impact on you using the HD menus. I can understand that you don't care, since you like the HD menus. What you should care about is that negative impact to Tivo's bottom line risks the value of your lifetime subscription. If Tivo is driven out of business by a class action lawsuit, your lifetime subscription will be worthless.


Ok, so, you apparently don't know anything about technology or how technology works.

It can literally be faster to display an HD menu in one language than an SD menu in another language.

This can happen because compression and coding technologies improve... one language may be interpreted and the other may be compiled. The HD menus may use a better encoding method. They may run on a platform with hardware acceleration whereas the SD menus do not. Etc etc etc.

So your claim, even if I give you the most charitable reading possible, is still not apparently true.

But you being wrong given the most charitable reading of what you said is not actually the point, because what you ACTUALLY said was, and I quote:



> For everyone, they are a lot slower than SD menus.


Which not true given any reasonable interpretation.

SD menus are not IN ALL CASES faster than HD menus. SD menus on my S2 and S3 are slower than HD menus on my Roamio. So, "for everyone" this is not true. Because, for me, my SD menus on my S3 are slower than my HD menus on my Roamio.

If you meant to say "HD menus are slower on the same box than SD menus" then maybe you should have said that, instead of saying something else, and then re-asserting more unfounded claims to follow it up.

But as I said above, even that isn't known to be true.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Also, you can usually tell when it's time to ignore someone as soon as they say "class action lawsuit" despite the fact that every corporation you do business with requires you to waive your right to a class action lawsuit. These are the people too uninformed to be bothered with.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> You're misinterpreting the statement (I think). My claim, and I think the other poster's claim, is that the Roamio HDUI is faster than the SDUI on models like the Nightlight Series 2. I recently decommisioned my last of those, and it was slow! Changing channels was slow, communication with other TiVos was ridiculously slow, Season Pass Management was ridiculously slow.


There are snails faster than the nightlight TiVo.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Grakthis said:


> If you meant to say "HD menus are slower on the same box than SD menus" then maybe you should have said that, instead of saying something else, and then re-asserting more unfounded claims to follow it up.


His post clearly said on "every TiVo made", which implies that for any given TiVo, the SD menus *on that TiVo* are faster than the HD menus on *that same TiVo*.

You're just making stuff up.


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

Grakthis said:


> Ok, so, you apparently don't know anything about technology or how technology works.


LMFAO! 

Out of curiosity, is English a second language for you? Since you have no idea what the word "gibberish" means, and you have great difficulty understanding my posts, perhaps you don't understand English very well? Bravo, you write very well for someone who doesn't understand the language. Much better than my Spanish or German for sure. Or perhaps you're "special"? Again, bravo! You should be proud that you can do many of life's tasks all by yourself!


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Bigg said:


> His post clearly said on "every TiVo made", which implies that for any given TiVo, the SD menus *on that TiVo* are faster than the HD menus on *that same TiVo*.
> 
> You're just making stuff up.


No, he said "For everyone, they are a lot slower than SD menus." The "for each" is on "users." For each user, are HD menus slower than SD menus? No, because different users have different hardware.

Maybe you should read his actual post that he actually made and respond to what he actually said? Instead of, I don't know what you're doing? Inventing a post he didn't make and using it to defend him.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Nak said:


> LMFAO!
> 
> Out of curiosity, is English a second language for you? Since you have no idea what the word "gibberish" means, and you have great difficulty understanding my posts, perhaps you don't understand English very well? Bravo, you write very well for someone who doesn't understand the language. Much better than my Spanish or German for sure. Or perhaps you're "special"? Again, bravo! You should be proud that you can do many of life's tasks all by yourself!


Awwwww are you sad because I pointed out that you said something incorrect on the internet? I'm sowwwwwwwwwy. I didn't mean to huwt you're poor widdle feewings!

And you just called me special to suggest I'm not smart? Did that really happen? I wonder if there are any more special needs groups you can mock while we're here? The blind? the deaf? amputees? No no, sorry, I didn't mean to steal your ammo. By all means, have at it. You pick which downtrodden and abused group you want to trample on in your quest to look like a tough guy on the internet.

edit: what corner of the backwoods does someone have to live in to think that's a socially acceptable insult? Mind-boggling.


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

Grakthis said:


> Awwwww are you sad because I pointed out that you said something incorrect on the internet? I'm sowwwwwwwwwy. I didn't mean to huwt you're poor widdle feewings!
> 
> And you just called me special to suggest I'm not smart? Did that really happen? I wonder if there are any more special needs groups you can mock while we're here? The blind? the deaf? amputees? No no, sorry, I didn't mean to steal your ammo. By all means, have at it. You pick which downtrodden and abused group you want to trample on in your quest to look like a tough guy on the internet.
> 
> edit: what corner of the backwoods does someone have to live in to think that's a socially acceptable insult? Mind-boggling.


Again, LMFAO! Grakthis, don't worry yourself, nothing you could say could hurt my feelings. LOL.

OK, you're having a very difficult time comprehending what you read. That's no reason to lash out at others, that just makes you look pathetic. Try reading my posts again. Read Bigg's post to help you understand. Think real hard as you read. Still having a hard time understanding? OK, try this. take a premiere and set it to SD menus. Step through a couple of tasks like reading show overviews. Now, do the exact same tasks with the HD menus. Time both with a stopwatch. See? The HD menus are slower? Obviously this is a really difficult task for you, so take your time. Try it again if you need to. You could try it again with a Roamio. Now this will be harder for you because the Roamio will be faster. You'll have to really work hard at it. Try and push the button on the stopwatch at the same time you start working the Tivo. Don't get frustrated, it can be very hard for some people to do two things at once. Nothing to be ashamed of there, you have other qualities that make up for it, I'm sure!

OK, now that you've managed to understand the concept of "faster", try working on being a nicer person. Nobody likes obnoxious people. Do you really have such a hard time understanding simple concepts like "implied" and "in context", or are you really just trying to be a jerk?

Come on Grathkis, only a complete and utter fool thinks that the Tivo HD menus are faster than the SD menus. And only a complete and utter fool thinks I was talking about anything other than a Tivo. If you're reading comprehension is above the 3rd grade level, you'd be able to understand that we are talking about different menus on the same Tivo. I understand that you're no genius, but I doubt you're as stupid as you're trying to make people think you are.


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

To everyone reading this thread, I apologize for being part of this thread devolving to this sordid state. I allowed a simple Troll to divert me from a simple message. I won't respond to the troll again, he can rant all he wants.

To get the thread back on track: It is my assertion that Tivo is stepping further and further away from being a user friendly experience. My three examples are meant to support that assertion. I point out that while some of these steps are probably driven by greed, at least one of the decisions could have negative financial consequences beyond mere consumer dissatisfaction. One respected member has requested I not discuss that any further and I intend to honor his request. 

I understand that most on this forum are Tivo fans. No problems there at all. I hope to be a Tivo fan again myself. I just hope that the leaders at Tivo ask themselves "Will we make more money generating a larger fan base, or will we make more money eroding our fan base?" I believe that Tivo will be more successful expanding their fan base, although it is correct that many actions that erode Tivo's popularity will have positive short term impact on Tivo's bottom line. Unfortunately, many, many high end business leaders today only think in the short term. The how and why of that would take a book to discuss properly, but most observant people will have no difficulty seeing the effects if they look for them.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Well, I have a hard time agreeing with the term "greed" since Tivo is yet to be profitable from operations. Searching for revenue streams is more applicable.

You are entitled to your own opinions. They clearly think they will make more money with ads, which they have had for years and years.


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

jrtroo said:


> Well, I have a hard time agreeing with the term "greed" since Tivo is yet to be profitable from operations. Searching for revenue streams is more applicable.
> 
> You are entitled to your own opinions. They clearly think they will make more money with ads, which they have had for years and years.


Agreed. (No pun intended  ) I have no problem with Tivo looking to enhance their profits. That's why they're in business, and if they don't make money they'll shutdown eventually rendering all the lifetime subscriptions we have worthless. We all have our own financial incentive for Tivo to succeed. My point, and my belief, is that Tivo would better enhance their revenue by serving their customer base. That's what made Tivo a success in the first place, and that is what I think they are getting away from.

Rather than try and force customers to new equipment and ads (the HD menus), Tivo should be enticing. For example: The Tivo series 2. Originally it was quite quick through the menus and changing channels. Updates were provided that added nothing of import, and yet still slowed the device to a crawl. It should be obvious to most that Tivo was trying to force customers to spend money on newer equipment and new lifetime subscriptions. While that is understandable as they need to continue to generate income, the actual result is that they angered and lost many customers for no reason. Widespread HD was just around the corner, and the vast majority of Tivo customers would have migrated on their own shortly. I believe--and I have no evidence other than anecdotal--is that in the end Tivo had smaller HD sales because they tried to force customers to new equipment, rather than entice. By looking at the short term rather than the long term they lost potential income.

It seems to me that the Pandora situation is the same thing. By limiting Pandora to the HD menus they are trying to drive customers to the HD menus? Why? Because, as jrtroo astutely pointed out, ads mean revenue and the HD menus have more ads. What they should be doing is providing new services on the HD menus, not eliminating services from the SD menus. They've done a good job of speeding up the HD menus on the Premiere, but they still have a ways to go. If they can't--or won't-- improve the HD menus on the Premiere, then they should not try to drive people to those menus. Entice, yes. Drive, no.

People may grumble about new services being only available on the newer menus/equipment, but they won't get angry. What gets people angry and drives consumers away is when Tivo takes services away from old menus/equipment. You can't seriously get upset because a device doesn't get improved functionality over time. If a company intentionally degrades your device's capabilities, well that's a whole other story.

Very few people would be angry at Tivo concerning the Stream and Android if the CEO had not promised what he could not deliver. Grumble? yes. But most wouldn't be angry. But since the CEO promised Android support in a few months, some Android users either bought streams or planned too. Now, once it became apparent that Android support wasn't coming any time soon, Tivo should have publicly apologized and offered to give a full refund on any unused Streams. they could have sold them as refurbished and probably not lost much at all. And they would have had more loyal, happy, customers. Loyal, happy, customers mean more revenue in the long run. Angry, unhappy, customers means lost revenue.

Local music playback? Why advertise it if it doesn't work? Without doubt they are angering some Tivo customers. How many is unknowable. But why anger any? Clearly Tivo thinks it is a selling point, or they wouldn't advertise it. But how do you think someone who buys a Tivo partly based on that advertised capability feels when they find out the capability isn't there? Do you think he/she will be a happy customer who recommends Tivo to friends, or will they be angry and steer potential customers away from Tivo?

And no, local music playback doesn't "work". In this day and age, especially with Tivo proudly pointing out Tivo's time shifting capability, a music player that becomes unstable if you dare to fast forward or --gasp--advance to the next song can not be considered to "work". A working music player allows you to fast forward, rewind, skip forward or skip back. Tivo does none of those things without then failing to play any other song. At the end of the song it simply stops. For that matter, even if you do nothing it will eventually stop playing the next song anyway. Very, very, few people would consider that a "working" music player.

I can not believe that Tivo is incapable of fixing that problem. Obviously, they simply do not want to spend the time/money to fix it. The smart thing to do would be to stop advertising that capability, or call it a "beta" application. If someone does not know or care about that capability, then the advertising was pointless for that customer. If a buyer DID care about that capability then Tivo did nothing but anger a customer with that advertising. Where is the win?????


----------



## ARS-K5GP (Feb 13, 2014)

I had a premier I gave to my daughter. I enjoyed several rss subscriptions to various scientific feeds, NASA, JPL, ESO, etc. Then the other day I noticed I could not locate how to add more. I was told to go to SD which I did and there was the ability to add more rss feeds. That was fine. Then I bought a Roamio and gave the priemier to my daughter. I was able to transfer all the programming from the premier to the roamio. It transferred the saved rss feeds also which work fine in the roamio. However when I wanted to add new rss feeds to the roamio there was no SD I could switch to and the VOD additions of rss feeds had been dropped on the HD menus. I called Tivo about this and they said they were phasing out rss feeds. I said what! You can't do that! RSS feeds on the Tivo is one of the greatest features of this system. So everyone please tell Tivo to add rss feed management back on the HD menu or allow us to switch back to the SD menu where the rss management still resides.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Grakthis said:


> No, he said "For everyone, they are a lot slower than SD menus." The "for each" is on "users." For each user, are HD menus slower than SD menus? No, because different users have different hardware.
> 
> Maybe you should read his actual post that he actually made and respond to what he actually said? Instead of, I don't know what you're doing? Inventing a post he didn't make and using it to defend him.


I was responding to what's posted to show that the ridiculous purposeful misinterpretation that you are pushing is just that.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Wait, does RSS feeds mean video podcasts?


----------



## dnemec123 (Jan 25, 2004)

ARS-K5GP said:


> I had a premier I gave to my daughter. I enjoyed several rss subscriptions to various scientific feeds, NASA, JPL, ESO, etc. Then the other day I noticed I could not locate how to add more. I was told to go to SD which I did and there was the ability to add more rss feeds. That was fine. Then I bought a Roamio and gave the priemier to my daughter. I was able to transfer all the programming from the premier to the roamio. It transferred the saved rss feeds also which work fine in the roamio. However when I wanted to add new rss feeds to the roamio there was no SD I could switch to and the VOD additions of rss feeds had been dropped on the HD menus. I called Tivo about this and they said they were phasing out rss feeds. I said what! You can't do that! RSS feeds on the Tivo is one of the greatest features of this system. So everyone please tell Tivo to add rss feed management back on the HD menu or allow us to switch back to the SD menu where the rss management still resides.


I, too, just found this out today after my son asked how we could record his favorite YouTube channel on the Roamio (which is a feature that is listed on TiVo's web site under Tips & Tricks, WebTips).

If you wanted to record video podcasts, YouTube channel content or anything else delivered via the RSS standard then please call or write TiVo Support and express the need to have this feature added back for the Roamio. This is an online video content device, right?

Dale


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Bigg said:


> I was responding to what's posted to show that the ridiculous purposeful misinterpretation that you are pushing is just that.


But you weren't. Because you claimed something was said, in the post I was responding to, that was not said. So you were responding to a fiction.

If you can't actually take the time to read what was said and respond to what was actually said, then please stay out of the discussion. It's not helpful to anyone for you to invent something, pretend someone said it, and respond to a fiction.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Nak said:


> Again, LMFAO! Grakthis, don't worry yourself, nothing you could say could hurt my feelings. LOL.
> 
> OK, you're having a very difficult time comprehending what you read. That's no reason to lash out at others, that just makes you look pathetic. Try reading my posts again. Read Bigg's post to help you understand. Think real hard as you read. Still having a hard time understanding? OK, try this. take a premiere and set it to SD menus. Step through a couple of tasks like reading show overviews. Now, do the exact same tasks with the HD menus. Time both with a stopwatch. See? The HD menus are slower? Obviously this is a really difficult task for you, so take your time. Try it again if you need to. You could try it again with a Roamio. Now this will be harder for you because the Roamio will be faster. You'll have to really work hard at it. Try and push the button on the stopwatch at the same time you start working the Tivo. Don't get frustrated, it can be very hard for some people to do two things at once. Nothing to be ashamed of there, you have other qualities that make up for it, I'm sure!
> 
> ...


There's this smiley we have on some forums, it's used to convey copious amounts of hilarious irony.

It's a smiley face, rolling it's eyes, barfing up 1000 more smiley faces, all rolling their eyes.

It's what you post when someone says something so hilariously ironic that just responding by calling it ironic isn't enough. You need to convey OVERWHELMING irony. Like, irony to the point where you don't actually need to explain it to people, you just point. "This framed post is the most ironic thing possible, everyone look at it! hahahahah."

We don't have that smiley here.

But let's pretend we do, and that I just posted it in response to you.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

i guess I probably could have conveyed the same notion with "y u mad, bro?"

Hmmmmmm...


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

The OP's premise is flawed. 

Let's not pretend that Tivo was ever great at anything but recording cabletv.


----------



## ARS-K5GP (Feb 13, 2014)

Its a video download. I see roamio still can add pod casts but these are low resolution mainly for cell phones and hand held devices which appear fuzzy on a large tv screen. Tivo has on line their high def VOD lists posted here www dot tivo.com/tivo-tco/go.do?def=tco.webvideos.page so now the challenge is how to add them to your new roamio box. If we could do it from on line at that link, that would be fine also. That way the roamio software would not need to be modified since it currently can play these HD rss feeds if you can get them on the box in the first place. I had to change the www above because I recd an error message from the group server. Sorry for the words www dot, change them to the real link.


----------



## ARS-K5GP (Feb 13, 2014)

....If you wanted to record video podcasts...

I think you may still be able to add pod casts with roamio.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Grakthis said:


> But you weren't. Because you claimed something was said, in the post I was responding to, that was not said. So you were responding to a fiction.
> 
> If you can't actually take the time to read what was said and respond to what was actually said, then please stay out of the discussion. It's not helpful to anyone for you to invent something, pretend someone said it, and respond to a fiction.


The original statement was obvious to any reasonable reader that it meant for any user, SD menus are always faster than HD menus *on the same TiVo box*. The statement may not have stood up in court to mean exactly that, but to any reader with any common sense, it meant that. Stop nitpicking.



Nak said:


> Again, LMFAO! Grakthis, don't worry yourself, nothing you could say could hurt my feelings. LOL.
> 
> OK, you're having a very difficult time comprehending what you read. That's no reason to lash out at others, that just makes you look pathetic. Try reading my posts again. Read Bigg's post to help you understand. Think real hard as you read. Still having a hard time understanding? OK, try this. take a premiere and set it to SD menus. Step through a couple of tasks like reading show overviews. Now, do the exact same tasks with the HD menus. Time both with a stopwatch. See? The HD menus are slower? Obviously this is a really difficult task for you, so take your time. Try it again if you need to. You could try it again with a Roamio. Now this will be harder for you because the Roamio will be faster. You'll have to really work hard at it. Try and push the button on the stopwatch at the same time you start working the Tivo. Don't get frustrated, it can be very hard for some people to do two things at once. Nothing to be ashamed of there, you have other qualities that make up for it, I'm sure!
> 
> ...


Yes. I think it's more a matter of reading it like a lawyer, trying to poke little holes in it, and then splitting hairs over it to be obnoxious. It was clear what was originally meant by the post.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> The OP's premise is flawed.
> 
> Let's not pretend that Tivo was ever great at anything but recording cabletv.


Quite true.


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

trip1eX said:


> The OP's premise is flawed.
> 
> Let's not pretend that Tivo was ever great at anything but recording cabletv.





Bigg said:


> Quite true.


Of course, this is personnel preference but I'd have to disagree. Fairly ironic, I start a thread to bash Tivo and then sing their praises... LOL 

Up until very recently I was using a series 2 for my music player. It was a lifetime box with a hard drive that never saw the update that ruined MP3 playback, and of course also never saw the updates that slowed it down. To get there, I simply installed the original hard drive which I had kept as a backup. I also blocked it from the internet with my router. It made a great music player. No album art or anything like that, but I really don't care about that. I just start the music and then turn off the TV anyway. It died just a couple of months ago. I've not found a replacement player that I like as well. 

I also like the photo display capability of the Tivo. It's the best way ever to go through old family photos with the kids. It's also great for throwing up slideshows as theme backgrounds during parties. You do need to organize all of your photos in a good folder structure to do that, but I do that anyway.

While i use a Dune player for my Bluray collection, all of my old DVD's are kept on my HTPC, but I watch them with my Tivo. Simple and easy to drill down through folders to pick out a movie, excellent playback features. If Tivo really wants to entice me to buy the Roamio to replace my Premiere, adding 1080P ISO playback AND HD audio would do that.

I enjoy listening to Pandora with the Tivo quite a bit, at least I did with the old Pandora app. I understand Pandora's need for a new app though. The old app played so few commercials there was no need whatsoever to pay for premium service.

It wasn't smart of Pandora though to make the new app a worse music player. If they would have just left the app alone other than upping the commercial count--and if I could access it via the SD menus-- I'd buy a Pandora subscription today. Admittedly I still might. I'll have to see if I continue to use it with it's reduced playback capabilities. And if I can get used to the HD menus. The more I use those menus the less I like them it seems... I don't mind ads, I understand the need for them. I just find the HD menus annoyingly un-intuitive to use, and slow.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I have had them both, and if you are going to purchase an app to stream music on your tivo, I prefer spotify.


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

jrtroo said:


> I have had them both, and if you are going to purchase an app to stream music on your tivo, I prefer spotify.


I'll have to check that out. Have you tried the Spotify Android app?


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Nak said:


> Of course, this is personnel preference but I'd have to disagree. Fairly ironic, I start a thread to bash Tivo and then sing their praises... LOL
> 
> Up until very recently I was using a series 2 for my music player. It was a lifetime box with a hard drive that never saw the update that ruined MP3 playback, and of course also never saw the updates that slowed it down. To get there, I simply installed the original hard drive which I had kept as a backup. I also blocked it from the internet with my router. It made a great music player. No album art or anything like that, but I really don't care about that. I just start the music and then turn off the TV anyway. It died just a couple of months ago. I've not found a replacement player that I like as well.
> 
> ...


None of that stuff works well compared to other devices ranging from Smart TVs to Rokus to HTPCs to laptops to smartphones and iPads.

Playing music through a TiVo makes no sense, as you'd have to have the TV on just for music. An smartphone or iPad running through Bluetooth or a 3.5mm to RCA cable makes a LOT more sense.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Playing music through a TiVo makes no sense, as you'd have to have the TV on just for music.


Depending on your setup and how you are using it, you don't have to have to keep the TV on after you start playing. I'll start playing Pandora or an album from my Home Server through our S3 and then turn the TV off as the TiVo audio/video goes through a receiver.

Scott


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HerronScott said:


> Depending on your setup and how you are using it, you don't have to have to keep the TV on after you start playing. I'll start playing Pandora or an album from my Home Server through our S3 and then turn the TV off as the TiVo audio/video goes through a receiver.
> 
> Scott


Mine is [sort of] set up the same way, I could run audio without the screen, but then I'd basically have no way to control what the TiVo is doing. Better just to use one of the zillion other devices that can stream music with bluetooth.


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

Possibly with an APT-X bluetooth device it may be time for that... With regular bluetooth the audio quality is nowhere near as good as the Tivo connection. Not that Tivo is audiophile quality, but with 256 kbs encoded mp3's it's far and away better than any standard bluetooth setup. Not even in the same league... The nice thing about the Tivo--if it worked correctly--is the "one box" media solution. Tivo is so close to being that, yet they fail to take the next step. If they'd fix music playback and add ISO 1080p playback--with HD audio--they'd become the #1 media player. The hardware is capable, they just haven't stepped forward with the software.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Nak said:


> ISO 1080p playback--with HD audio


Gotta say, I don't know what you mean by either of these. The Roamio does do 1080p, though (both 24 and 60 fps).


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Nak said:


> Possibly with an APT-X bluetooth device it may be time for that... With regular bluetooth the audio quality is nowhere near as good as the Tivo connection. Not that Tivo is audiophile quality, but with 256 kbs encoded mp3's it's far and away better than any standard bluetooth setup. Not even in the same league... The nice thing about the Tivo--if it worked correctly--is the "one box" media solution. Tivo is so close to being that, yet they fail to take the next step. If they'd fix music playback and add ISO 1080p playback--with HD audio--they'd become the #1 media player. The hardware is capable, they just haven't stepped forward with the software.


Then use an RCA cable. "One box". HAHAHA. It's a DVR. It sucks at everything else. That's why we have AVRs with big rows of HDMI ports, HDMI switches, and furniture to house all of the stuff.


----------



## Nak (Aug 18, 2010)

wmcbrine said:


> Gotta say, I don't know what you mean by either of these. The Roamio does do 1080p, though (both 24 and 60 fps).


By ISO playback I mean the ability to play a Bluray stored as an ISO file. HD Audio is either DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD. Those capabilities would make Tivo a true Media Player and take the place of a device like my Dune. It seems like the Tivo--at least the Roamio--should be hardware capable of that, but perhaps the chipset is not. I have no idea actually. I'm just pointing out things Tivo could do to expand their customer base. They dabble at such capabilities, but don't really commit to it.

My overall point is that Tivo would be better off expanding their customer base by improving their service on new devices/menus. Trying to force customers to new devices/menus by degrading service on old devices is likely to be counter productive in the long run. Pissing off a segment of your fan base is never a good idea, except in the very short term.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Nak said:


> By ISO playback I mean the ability to play a Bluray stored as an ISO file. HD Audio is either DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD. Those capabilities would make Tivo a true Media Player and take the place of a device like my Dune. It seems like the Tivo--at least the Roamio--should be hardware capable of that, but perhaps the chipset is not. I have no idea actually. I'm just pointing out things Tivo could do to expand their customer base. They dabble at such capabilities, but don't really commit to it.
> 
> My overall point is that Tivo would be better off expanding their customer base by improving their service on new devices/menus. Trying to force customers to new devices/menus by degrading service on old devices is likely to be counter productive in the long run. Pissing off a segment of your fan base is never a good idea, except in the very short term.


How many lay people would understand what you just said above, few could even get a BluRay movie into an ISO format, TiVo is a DVR first with a few apps connected to it, the full home system using the Mini (and 4 to six tuner TiVo) and reducing cable cards use is the real step forward for DVR use, the rest of the apps will not get any more (or few) lay people to purchase a TiVo system.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> How many lay people would understand what you just said above, few could even get a BluRay movie into an ISO format, TiVo is a DVR first with a few apps connected to it, the full home system using the Mini (and 4 to six tuner TiVo) and reducing cable cards use is the real step forward for DVR use, the rest of the apps will not get any more (or few) lay people to purchase a TiVo system.


Exactly. Especially in a market with very limited competition. Very few people who even understand how they could rip ISO files would, since they already have a Blu-Ray player, and aren't going to waste their time ripping ISOs.

If anything, they should focus on the core DVR functionality and improvements there.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I would say just the opposite. TiVo is a more user firendly experience than in the past. At least for my with my Roamios, Minis, and TiVo Desktop PC. I've never been able to do so much and so fast with the quick UI in all my years of using TiVos.

EIT: Where the heck did teh post go I was responding to.

Fo BD ISOs I have other deviecs for my media streaming. I don't need my Tivo to do it. I've got over 1600 BD ISOs currently and my media players do a great job with them. My TiVos can't do everything and I don't want them trying to have them do everything.


----------



## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

Tivo appears to be moving in with the cable companies, with all their new partnerships and with laying off the majority of their hardware engineers their future is with the providing dvr software for the cable companies. 

I bet in 10 year there will be no more Tivo retail products and if you want Tivo, your cable company will supply it with their box rentals.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> I would say just the opposite. TiVo is a more user firendly experience than in the past. At least for my with my Roamios, Minis, and TiVo Desktop PC. I've never been able to do so much and so fast with the quick UI in all my years of using TiVos.
> 
> EIT: Where the heck did teh post go I was responding to.
> 
> Fo BD ISOs I have other deviecs for my media streaming. I don't need my Tivo to do it. I've got over 1600 BD ISOs currently and my media players do a great job with them. My TiVos can't do everything and I don't want them trying to have them do everything.


I'm not saying it's not better than ever. It is. But it still has a long way to go.

1600 ISOs? Do you actually own the discs? Or are they pirated? That's a lot of storage space!



eboydog said:


> Tivo appears to be moving in with the cable companies, with all their new partnerships and with laying off the majority of their hardware engineers their future is with the providing dvr software for the cable companies.
> 
> I bet in 10 year there will be no more Tivo retail products and if you want Tivo, your cable company will supply it with their box rentals.


That's not going to work for most of the country, where Comcast reigns (or will reign) supreme. I'm betting that they only do software, and either license it to a company to make the retail hardware, or spec out retail hardware and outsource the production of it, in addition to selling to cable companies.


----------



## bobtbobt (Feb 2, 2003)

mattack said:


> I'm not defending them, but *AS WELL AS* calling them, write up bugs at forum.tivo.com too.. They seem to be a BIT more responsive there (though I admit I have to add some more info about a few of the issues I'm seeing with the iPad app still happening)..


forums.tivo.com


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Nak said:


> Of course, this is personnel preference but I'd have to disagree. Fairly ironic, I start a thread to bash Tivo and then sing their praises... LOL
> 
> Up until very recently I was using a series 2 for my music player. It was a lifetime box with a hard drive that never saw the update that ruined MP3 playback, and of course also never saw the updates that slowed it down. To get there, I simply installed the original hard drive which I had kept as a backup. I also blocked it from the internet with my router. It made a great music player. No album art or anything like that, but I really don't care about that. I just start the music and then turn off the TV anyway. It died just a couple of months ago. I've not found a replacement player that I like as well.
> 
> ...


It was never great at that stuff though. The fact you used it isn't enough to make it great. 

I just had a chuckle with your post because I thought you were 10 years late with the question in the title when discussing these xtra services that Tivos can do. I never found them great by any objective measure.

Even back when I had a SEries 2 and didn't have an iPod yet. I never thought the music playback feature was great. You needed your pc to be on. You needed your TV on. And then your UI was folders. And this feature was buried in the menu. And the whole process was slow going. And then I think if you went back a folder or something your song would stop playing.

Pretty quickly i had an Ipod and a pair of RCA cables.

IT's the same sorta thing for everything on Tivo outside of recording tv. The stuff is there and works I guess in the general sense of the word.

But if you really use that xtra stuff you might as well just get an ATV or use your smartphone etc.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> But if you really use that xtra stuff you might as well just get an ATV or use your smartphone etc.


Exactly. And now there are 10 zillion different ways to do it, that we don't need to use a really crappy one.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> I never found them great by any objective measure.


I want a DVR. The rest is, at best, icing, and it is difficult to eat more than a little icing.



trip1eX said:


> Even back when I had a SEries 2


'Never had an S2. It was too much of a dog. I kept my S1 for over a decade, but I bought an S3 as soon as it was available. I now have 3 S3s, and they stomp the ever loving #@^%T out of the Premiere my CATV company provides.



trip1eX said:


> and didn't have an iPod yet.


'Still don't have an iPod. 'Have no use for one.



trip1eX said:


> I never thought the music playback feature was great. You needed your pc to be on.


You seem to be assuming one only has one PC. There are over 20 in this house, not including embedded devices. The servers are, of course, 24 x 7, so adding one more service to them has no impact. Since HME for Python does a number of other things as well as serving MP3 files, the impact is even less, still. Removing Jukebox would most certainly not allow them to be shut down.



trip1eX said:


> You needed your TV on.


Who says? I use HME Jukebox all the time, and I rarely, if ever, leave the TV on. I turn it on to start the app, but then I shut off the TV and let it run.



trip1eX said:


> And then your UI was folders. And this feature was buried in the menu. And the whole process was slow going. And then I think if you went back a folder or something your song would stop playing.


You obviously are not using Jukebox. You might try it.



trip1eX said:


> Pretty quickly i had an Ipod and a pair of RCA cables.


As I said before, I never had an iPod. I did have an MP3 player, but I dumped it quite quickly. Now in the house (on any of the four TiVos), I have Jukebox. In the car, I have a thumb drive plugged into the stereo.



trip1eX said:


> But if you really use that xtra stuff you might as well just get an ATV or use your smartphone etc.


You have to be kidding me. Every so-called smart phone I have seen is a pile of junk, including the one my company has forced on me to use. They don't even work well as phones.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> You have to be kidding me. Every so-called smart phone I have seen is a pile of junk, including the one my company has forced on me to use. They don't even work well as phones.


LOL. What are you rocking? A UT Starcom? Or a Palm Treo?


----------



## leiff (Aug 24, 2005)

didn't the old tivo pandora app allow you to choose " Dont play song for month" I'm tired of this song. This option was extremely useful and missing from new app.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> I want a DVR. The rest is, at best, icing, and it is difficult to eat more than a little icing.
> 
> 'Never had an S2. It was too much of a dog. I kept my S1 for over a decade, but I bought an S3 as soon as it was available. I now have 3 S3s, and they stomp the ever loving #@^%T out of the Premiere my CATV company provides.
> 
> ...


You're fine. You can continue doing what you're doing. 

I don't see your usage case refuting my post unless you think you represent the meat of the market or most consumers. IT just further reminds me there are exceptions to everything.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> You're fine. You can continue doing what you're doing.
> 
> I don't see your usage case refuting my post unless you think you represent the meat of the market or most consumers. IT just further reminds me there are exceptions to everything.


Yeah. I don't get how there are people who have a ton of one tech toy, and none of the other. At the point that someone has an insane home theater, or 20 computers, or servers in their house, you just expect a top of the line smartphone, at least a couple of tablets, etc, etc.

The weirdest to me are the HT enthusiasts on AVS who have a cable DVR, or worse, a U-Verse DVR. I have to assume that they don't watch TV, and it's just for their s.o. and kids, but I still wonder... I just expect anyone who has a serious HT to have a 4 or 6 tuner TiVo with CableCard, or a DirecTV HR34/HR44.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Yeah. I don't get how there are people who have a ton of one tech toy, and none of the other. At the point that someone has an insane home theater, or 20 computers, or servers in their house, you just expect a top of the line smartphone, at least a couple of tablets, etc, etc.
> 
> The weirdest to me are the HT enthusiasts on AVS who have a cable DVR, or worse, a U-Verse DVR. I have to assume that they don't watch TV, and it's just for their s.o. and kids, but I still wonder... I just expect anyone who has a serious HT to have a 4 or 6 tuner TiVo with CableCard, or a DirecTV HR34/HR44.


If they have U-Verse then those would not be an option.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> If they have U-Verse then those would not be an option.


That baffles me even more. I have seen a couple of pretty serious HT setups with crappy U-Verse service. I have to assume that the owner of the HT themselves doesn't watch much if any TV, otherwise they wouldn't have a TV service that isn't a pile of pixelated garbage one HDMI input away from their Oppo Blu-Ray player.

Hence why I would expect someone with a serious HT setup to either have a TiVo with cable or FIOS or a DirecTV HR34/44. Ok, maybe an earlier HR series, but you get the point.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> That baffles me even more. I have seen a couple of pretty serious HT setups with crappy U-Verse service. I have to assume that the owner of the HT themselves doesn't watch much if any TV, otherwise they wouldn't have a TV service that isn't a pile of pixelated garbage one HDMI input away from their Oppo Blu-Ray player. Hence why I would expect someone with a serious HT setup to either have a TiVo with cable or FIOS or a DirecTV HR34/44. Ok, maybe an earlier HR series, but you get the point.


I have a Sansui VCR and a Series 1 Phillips TiVo connected with RF coax, will that suffice?


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Yeah. I don't get how there are people who have a ton of one tech toy, and none of the other. At the point that someone has an insane home theater, or 20 computers, or servers in their house, you just expect a top of the line smartphone, at least a couple of tablets, etc, etc.
> 
> The weirdest to me are the HT enthusiasts on AVS who have a cable DVR, or worse, a U-Verse DVR. I have to assume that they don't watch TV, and it's just for their s.o. and kids, but I still wonder... I just expect anyone who has a serious HT to have a 4 or 6 tuner TiVo with CableCard, or a DirecTV HR34/HR44.


All tech toys are not equal for people IE my wife and I have all the tech toys we want but I don't have a smart phone or any game console, not a money problem but a want issue, smart phones have more stuff than I need in my life, I only use a old Moto flip RAZR cell phone for calls, no texting, it is small and easy to answer. I don't play any computer games, only card games like bridge, canasta, etc. but I do have a smart 80" HDTV, surround sound Meridian system, and a MS surface pro 2 8G for my wife. Each of us picks out the tech toys (and cars) they want within what they feel they can afford, nobody should make general judgments about somebody they don't know.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> I have a Sansui VCR and a Series 1 Phillips TiVo connected with RF coax, will that suffice?


Yikes. Why? At least for the S1. The VCR I can see if you have old tapes. I have one hooked up, even though I don't think I've used it since I set up my current system.



lessd said:


> All tech toys are not equal for people IE my wife and I have all the tech toys we want but I don't have a smart phone or any game console, not a money problem but a want issue, smart phones have more stuff than I need in my life, I only use a old Moto flip RAZR cell phone for calls, no texting, it is small and easy to answer. I don't play any computer games, only card games like bridge, canasta, etc. but I do have a smart 80" HDTV, surround sound Meridian system, and a MS surface pro 2 8G for my wife. Each of us picks out the tech toys (and cars) they want within what they feel they can afford, nobody should make general judgments about somebody they don't know.


I can see not having a game console, as there are other ways to get entertainment, but not having a smart phone?!? They are a borderline necessity in our modern world, and are a HUGE convenience. Anyone who doesn't have a smartphone is purposely putting themselves behind at this point.

Back back to U-Verse and a good HT setup. It's just nuts to spend all that money on an incredible HT and then feed it garbage. Or to not have TiVo if you're using cable on a high end HT setup.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> Yikes. Why? At least for the S1. The VCR I can see if you have old tapes. I have one hooked up, even though I don't think I've used it since I set up my current system.....


My tongue was planted firmly in my cheek with that comment. I have neither. Although I did have a JVC D-VHS D-Theater digital HD VCR hooked up until not too long ago.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Yikes. Why? At least for the S1. The VCR I can see if you have old tapes. I have one hooked up, even though I don't think I've used it since I set up my current system.
> 
> I can see not having a game console, as there are other ways to get entertainment, but not having a smart phone?!? They are a borderline necessity in our modern world, and are a HUGE convenience. Anyone who doesn't have a smartphone is purposely putting themselves behind at this point.


For a non working retired person why is a smart phone such a necessity?, My phone is small, easy to answer (just flip it open), I only have to charge it about every 6 days, and by Bluetooth it connects to my land line phone system when I am home (and my auto phone system) (I know a smart phone would do the same but my point is, so does my flip phone). When I am out of my home I am with people and I feel it is rude to be looking at (or sending) E-Mail, or texting, or whatever with a smart phone. And if the group does have a question most of the people in the group do have a smart phones and can look up the answer. The moment I feel deprived I will get a smart phone.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

lessd said:


> For a non working retired person why is a smart phone such a necessity?, My phone is small, easy to answer (just flip it open), I only have to charge it about every 6 days, and by Bluetooth it connects to my land line phone system when I am home (and my auto phone system) (I know a smart phone would do the same but my point is, so does my flip phone). When I am out of my home I am with people and I feel it is rude to be looking at (or sending) E-Mail, or texting, or whatever with a smart phone. And if the group does have a question most of the people in the group do have a smart phones and can look up the answer. The moment I feel deprived I will get a smart phone.


I guess it all depends on how you use it. I don't message much but the mobile information comes in really handy. I can't count how many times we have used Yelp to find local restaurants when we are out driving and looking for recommended entry's.

I can use find my friends to tell how close my wife is if we are going to meet.

Of course there is always the trivia conversation with friends where I can look something up and resolve it.

My contacts contain extra information like birthdays and stuff when I am shopping.

My health apps contain my blood pressure readings when I visit my doctors as well as my health appointments.

When I have been traveling on a plane I can listen to music to make time go by.

I have all my photographs that I have shared a zillion times in conversations with friends. Just tonight I video recorded my wife's retirement party.

And besides all that if I have good connection I can use the tivo app to watch recorded shows remotely if needed.

The list goes on and on and not one of these includes being rude.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I am a retired non working person and really like having my smart phone. When I am waiting in line I can read the news instead of reading the garbage journalism near the check out stands. I do a lot of meetup events, and it means that I can get updates and see whom is coming right before I get out of the car at the restaurant. 

I quit using my GPS in the car that I use to pay for updates. I can voice in messages to myself and see them on a large screen and take good pictures too. The large screen really helps me as I have vision problems. I like surfing the net while waiting for people or events.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

zalusky said:


> The list goes on and on and not one of these includes being rude.
> 
> *>>> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD <<< *


If you want to continue not being rude, could you kindly turn off that spam message you're subjecting us to?


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Owning and using a Smart Phone is just like many things we have today that didn't exist a few years ago. If you are required to have one for work then you need it. For everyone else it is an option you can decide to spend you disposable income on or not. 

Personally I have very little need for any type of cell phone and only own a tracfone that sits off in my car most of the time. It does happen to be a smart phone as I recently needed to replace the $10 6 year old tracfone I had and went for a $60 ZTE Android phone. I have only used it on my wifi network to see how it works and I see no real reason I will use it for anything other than making a few calls (in a year) just like the old tracfone. But then I also find no use for the 7in Samsung Tab 2 tablet I purchase to see what tablets where all about. 

So I say if you want to spend your money on high priced smart phone and expensive monthly cell phone contract go for it - it is your money spend it the way you want. For me spending less than $7/mo on my tracfone meets my needs & desires.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

zalusky said:


> I guess it all depends on how you use it. I don't message much but the mobile information comes in really handy. I can't count how many times we have used Yelp to find local restaurants when we are out driving and looking for recommended entry's.
> 
> I can use find my friends to tell how close my wife is if we are going to meet.
> 
> ...


OK one by one

Finding my wife or friends has never been a problem now, 20 years ago maybe.

I know my wife birthday and both my kids and spouses birthdays, don't have any other birthdays I need to know when I am out of my home.

My Doc has all my health info, and for me it is very little (I am lucky).

I not on a plane very much these days, but when I am I use my I-Pad and Bose Noise cancelling headphones.

I have photographs on my flip phone that I can share when needed.

All my cars have built in GPS to find places if needed, but a smart would be better for that.

TiVo remote recording has never been needed except when I have been at somebody's home, then I have used their computer to set up the remote TiVo recording.

Maybe if I had a smart phone I would invent uses for it like setting up some home cameras to watch my dog when we are out, and make sure my 66 year old wife is not cheating on me. I have a full computer controlled lighting system (by Vantage http://www.vantagecontrols.com/learn/getting-started.aspx) that I could control from a smart phone, turn a light on or off in my home when I am away. I could also control my home alarm from a smart phone.
But at this time I have not felt any need for this extra stuff, when or if I do I will get a smart phone.
PS all my kids and their spouses do have smart phones, great for the younger set of people, just not for me at this time.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

lessd said:


> OK one by one
> 
> Finding my wife or friends has never been a problem now, 20 years ago maybe.
> 
> ...


What if as a retired person your out and about and you get into a car accident or mugged or fall off a cliff. With find my phone your wife can find you.
Or you can find your phone if somebody steals it.

I can go on with more how about scanning a bar code and instantly knowing if the price can beaten at another local store.

How about online coupons. There are lots of saving money apps.

How about online tickets

How about using the camera via an App to take a picture of a mole to see if it has melanoma characteristics . That happened to me!

How about having all your encrypted passwords available


----------



## evanborkow (Mar 17, 2008)

lessd said:


> For a non working retired person why is a smart phone such a necessity?, My phone is small, easy to answer (just flip it open), I only have to charge it about every 6 days, and by Bluetooth it connects to my land line phone system when I am home (and my auto phone system) (I know a smart phone would do the same but my point is, so does my flip phone). When I am out of my home I am with people and I feel it is rude to be looking at (or sending) E-Mail, or texting, or whatever with a smart phone. And if the group does have a question most of the people in the group do have a smart phones and can look up the answer. The moment I feel deprived I will get a smart phone.


Exactly! You and I could be clones. Right down to the Moto V3 Razr and the blue tooth link to the land line which I hardly ever use.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> For a non working retired person why is a smart phone such a necessity?, My phone is small, easy to answer (just flip it open), I only have to charge it about every 6 days, and by Bluetooth it connects to my land line phone system when I am home (and my auto phone system) (I know a smart phone would do the same but my point is, so does my flip phone). When I am out of my home I am with people and I feel it is rude to be looking at (or sending) E-Mail, or texting, or whatever with a smart phone. And if the group does have a question most of the people in the group do have a smart phones and can look up the answer. The moment I feel deprived I will get a smart phone.


There is so much you can do with a smartphone. Write stuff down in a note, calendar, streaming music, internet, TiVo app, Weather, Google Maps turn by turn, Evernote Mobile, paying for gas, and on the list goes. You're missing out by not having a smartphone.



atmuscarella said:


> Owning and using a Smart Phone is just like many things we have today that didn't exist a few years ago. If you are required to have one for work then you need it. For everyone else it is an option you can decide to spend you disposable income on or not.
> 
> So I say if you want to spend your money on high priced smart phone and expensive monthly cell phone contract go for it - it is your money spend it the way you want. For me spending less than $7/mo on my tracfone meets my needs & desires.


Or you could get a smartphone from Tracfone for $7/mo! Seriously though, having a smartphone is already more important than a land line or even cable TV, and if it hasn't already, it will become more important than having real internet.



zalusky said:


> I can go on with more how about scanning a bar code and instantly knowing if the price can beaten at another local store.
> 
> How about online coupons. There are lots of saving money apps.
> 
> How about online tickets


Yeah, that's an excellent point. I can't have a camera in my phone because of my employer (DoD contractor), but I look up stuff online a lot for comparison shopping. Just a few comparisons each month, and that alone, not to mention the 100 other different things a smartphone does will make the smartphone pay for itself.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> There is so much you can do with a smartphone. Write stuff down in a note, calendar, streaming music, internet, TiVo app, Weather, Google Maps turn by turn, Evernote Mobile, paying for gas, and on the list goes. You're missing out by not having a smartphone.
> 
> Or you could get a smartphone from Tracfone for $7/mo! Seriously though, having a smartphone is already more important than a land line or even cable TV, and if it hasn't already, it will become more important than having real internet.
> 
> Yeah, that's an excellent point. I can't have a camera in my phone because of my employer (DoD contractor), but I look up stuff online a lot for comparison shopping. Just a few comparisons each month, and that alone, not to mention the 100 other different things a smartphone does will make the smartphone pay for itself.


I guess I live a more simple life than you smart phone people (I do have a camera on my flip phone), at this point in my life I don't want a bigger phone and one that has to be charged at least every two days, if not every day as I leave my phone on 24/7. Many times my friends need to make a call and forgot to charge their smart phone, they know they always can use my little flip phone for their call.
Don't get me wrong as I got my first Cell phone in 1989, called a bag phone, I loved it, tonight I let my wife off at a store and she came out a difference door, called me and I brought the car to that door. My wife uses her cell phone less than I do, only turns it on if she needs to make a call, or is expecting an important call, she also has a flip phone that I charge about once every two months!
As far as getting lost and using the phone to find me, how many people have had that experience when living in a suburban area? Never happened to anybody that I know. The smart phone did not help the poor people on Fl 370. (and I am sure some people on that flight had a smart phone). If I spent a lot of time in say a big city like NYC I would get a smart phone ASAP.
I not telling anybody to give up their smart phone just because I don't want one now.


----------



## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

evanborkow said:


> Exactly! You and I could be clones. Right down to the Moto V3 Razr and the blue tooth link to the land line which I hardly ever use.


A few months ago ATT sent me a message that I needed to update my phone (V3 Razr) by the end of the month or it would stop working. What?

I called and they said because of 4G it needed to be replaced, and they would send me a free phone without requiring contract. I moaned that I loved my phone - have dropped it oh, maybe 30x in the last years and it keeps on keepin' on - and didn't want a new one! I also allowed that I am a dinosaur and she probably doesn't talk to people like me very often. Oh yes, she said, I do, and the vast majority are Razr owners 

We resolved that I could continue using my phone, and when it gradually starts dropping more calls and having performance problems that I can switch to the new filp they sent that lives in my car console now.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> I guess I live a more simple life than you smart phone people (I do have a camera on my flip phone), at this point in my life I don't want a bigger phone and one that has to be charged at least every two days, if not every day as I leave my phone on 24/7. Many times my friends need to make a call and forgot to charge their smart phone, they know they always can use my little flip phone for their call.
> Don't get me wrong as I got my first Cell phone in 1989, called a bag phone, I loved it, tonight I let my wife off at a store and she came out a difference door, called me and I brought the car to that door. My wife uses her cell phone less than I do, only turns it on if she needs to make a call, or is expecting an important call, she also has a flip phone that I charge about once every two months!
> As far as getting lost and using the phone to find me, how many people have had that experience when living in a suburban area? Never happened to anybody that I know. The smart phone did not help the poor people on Fl 370. (and I am sure some people on that flight had a smart phone). If I spent a lot of time in say a big city like NYC I would get a smart phone ASAP.
> I not telling anybody to give up their smart phone just because I don't want one now.


Flip phones can die too. Once every two months?!?! Sure, flip phones last longer than smartphones, but maybe a week. If you charge a smartphone every night when you go to bed, it won't run out of power unless you're using it a lot during the day.

I use a smartphone for GPS all the time. I used it today for that. Even in CT, there are PLENTY of places to get lost. MH370 has nothing to do with this discussion.

You're missing out by not having a smartphone.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Bigg said:


> Flip phones can die too. Once every two months?!?! Sure, flip phones last longer than smartphones, but maybe a week. If you charge a smartphone every night when you go to bed, it won't run out of power unless you're using it a lot during the day.
> 
> I use a smartphone for GPS all the time. I used it today for that. Even in CT, there are PLENTY of places to get lost. MH370 has nothing to do with this discussion.
> 
> You're missing out by not having a smartphone.


Different folks have different lifestyles than you do, Bigg, something you'll learn to appreciate later in life. You have a much more spontaneous life-style than mine; that's fine, and a smart phone is very useful for that, but why do you think I have to change my lifestyle to match yours? I'm perfectly fine with my flip-phone (and having a nearby computer most waking hours.)

My flip-phone lasted 3-4 weeks between charges normally, up until this past 8 months when I've been living out of a temporary apartment. Now that I don't have a land line until we move back, it's only lasting 1-2 weeks.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Flip phones can die too. Once every two months?!?! Sure, flip phones last longer than smartphones, but maybe a week. If you charge a smartphone every night when you go to bed, it won't run out of power unless you're using it a lot during the day.
> 
> I use a smartphone for GPS all the time. I used it today for that. Even in CT, there are PLENTY of places to get lost. MH370 has nothing to do with this discussion.
> 
> You're missing out by not having a smartphone.


For my wife the phone is off unless she needs it that why it can be charged every 2 to 3 months, she does not use it much.

As for GPS I have 3 cars all have built in GPS, and I have a Garmin with lifetime upgrades when needed, hard to use a smart phone as a driver using GPS compared to a dash mounted Garmin.
You could be correct that I am missing out on something I don't know about, but the only app on a smart I would like is the check deposit app, that would be cool for me, the rest I don't miss or feel deprived as of now, and I don't want to carry a bigger phone. In the early days when flip phones were almost a big as todays smart phones I had a belt carrying case, ripped more pants walking out of doors cars etc (ok I may be more clumsy than you), I like being able to use my shirt pocket to carry my phone (OK; today it is getting hard to find shirts with pockets, but I do). I like just dropping off my phone on the kitchen shelf when I come home, and once a week or so plugging into the charger. The phone does have an alarm, calendar, and calculator, three thing I do use at times.
The biggest problem I have with a smart phone is that I don't want to carry that big a phone with me, If I were a woman I might get a smart phone as I would have a pocketbook to carry it in. My daughters-in-law has a flip phone and a Mini Apple I-Pad internet connected, that take care of her needs, OH! she has a pocketbook to carry the two things in.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

CrispyCritter said:


> Different folks have different lifestyles than you do, Bigg, something you'll learn to appreciate later in life. You have a much more spontaneous life-style than mine; that's fine, and a smart phone is very useful for that, but why do you think I have to change my lifestyle to match yours? I'm perfectly fine with my flip-phone (and having a nearby computer most waking hours.)
> 
> My flip-phone lasted 3-4 weeks between charges normally, up until this past 8 months when I've been living out of a temporary apartment. Now that I don't have a land line until we move back, it's only lasting 1-2 weeks.


A smartphone is highly beneficial no matter what lifestyle you have. Sure, some will get more use out of it. People who have to travel more for their job and/or live in a big city and/or go out a lot would get far more out of a smartphone than I do. But anyone can get a lot out of one, definitely far more than the monthly access charge worth.



lessd said:


> For my wife the phone is off unless she needs it that why it can be charged every 2 to 3 months, she does not use it much.
> 
> As for GPS I have 3 cars all have built in GPS, and I have a Garmin with lifetime upgrades when needed, hard to use a smart phone as a driver using GPS compared to a dash mounted Garmin.
> You could be correct that I am missing out on something I don't know about, but the only app on a smart I would like is the check deposit app, that would be cool for me, the rest I don't miss or feel deprived as of now, and I don't want to carry a bigger phone. In the early days when flip phones were almost a big as todays smart phones I had a belt carrying case, ripped more pants walking out of doors cars etc (ok I may be more clumsy than you), I like being able to use my shirt pocket to carry my phone (OK; today it is getting hard to find shirts with pockets, but I do). I like just dropping off my phone on the kitchen shelf when I come home, and once a week or so plugging into the charger. The phone does have an alarm, calendar, and calculator, three thing I do use at times.
> The biggest problem I have with a smart phone is that I don't want to carry that big a phone with me, If I were a woman I might get a smart phone as I would have a pocketbook to carry it in. My daughters-in-law has a flip phone and a Mini Apple I-Pad internet connected, that take care of her needs, OH! she has a pocketbook to carry the two things in.


Cell phones are really useful when they're off.

You could get something like a Moto X or an iPhone if you don't want a ginormous smartphone. They getting kind of ridiculous size wise. The Galaxy Note pretty much symbolizes everything that's wrong with smartphone design these days. The reality is that they are pushing larger screens, as the amount of space needed for a battery to support ever faster SoCs, LTE/cellular radio(s), etc, is significant. Apple has chosen to sacrifice a little bit of battery life, but also design a much more efficient phone with their own SoC optimized for iOS to get around this. Even though I wouldn't want to carry around a Galaxy Note, there is a reason that they are some of the fastest, best performing smartphones out there. That being said, you can get all the benefits of a smartphone out of a couple of generation old iPhone, or a smaller Android device that doesn't have the top specs.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Totally missed the GPS comment. Phone GPS is far superior to a Garmin, as you can search where you are going, not just be address. It's exactly the same as a Garmin usability wise while driving, mount it in it's cradle (I have a universal cradle that I've used for 3 different phones), plug in the car charger, and off I go.


----------



## christheman (Feb 21, 2013)

lessd said:


> For a non working retired person why is a smart phone such a necessity?, My phone is small, easy to answer (just flip it open), I only have to charge it about every 6 days, and by Bluetooth it connects to my land line phone system when I am home (and my auto phone system) (I know a smart phone would do the same but my point is, so does my flip phone). When I am out of my home I am with people and I feel it is rude to be looking at (or sending) E-Mail, or texting, or whatever with a smart phone. And if the group does have a question most of the people in the group do have a smart phones and can look up the answer. The moment I feel deprived I will get a smart phone.


Agreed, and same outlook here. Not behind in anything important, and also ahead of the curve in the social skills dept. Or at least average by yesterday's standards. I can be talking with a very smart person who has his/her nose buried in their smart phone, and 9 times out of 10 the resulting conversation will be not-so-smart.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Yeah really, give it a rest already Bigg!


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

christheman said:


> Agreed, and same outlook here. Not behind in anything important, and also ahead of the curve in the social skills dept. Or at least average by yesterday's standards. I can be talking with a very smart person who has his/her nose buried in their smart phone, and 9 times out of 10 the resulting conversation will be not-so-smart.


Do you think the conversation in 1900 would have been much better if that same person had their head buried in a folded up newspaper?

People's misuse of technology has nothing to do with the technology itself. Don't blame a technology for what people do with it. There are polite and acceptable ways to use technology, and there are impolite and unacceptable ways to use technology. We live a high-tech constantly changing world, and part of embracing and adopting technology is figuring out how to use it, when it should be used, when it shouldn't, etc. Technology isn't inherently good or bad, how people use it is good or bad.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Do you think the conversation in 1900 would have been much better if that same person had their head buried in a folded up newspaper?
> 
> People's misuse of technology has nothing to do with the technology itself. Don't blame a technology for what people do with it. There are polite and acceptable ways to use technology, and there are impolite and unacceptable ways to use technology. We live a high-tech constantly changing world, and part of embracing and adopting technology is figuring out how to use it, when it should be used, when it shouldn't, etc. Technology isn't inherently good or bad, how people use it is good or bad.


Bigg, your missing my main point *SIZE* to make the phone easy for me to carry, that my main downside to getting one, if I missed what a smart phone can do for me enough I would put up with the size issue, I want to keep my cell phone in my shirt front pocket, when I not with people and at home I have a very good computer to work with, does many things that a smart phone could also do+ some things a smart phone can't do. (OK, a smart can also do some thing my computer can't do like making a check deposit) When I ready to put up with the bigger size I may get one, but for now I don't need a smart phone.
I have one friend that keeps his flip phone in his car and off, only uses it if he can't make an appointment on time, charges it about every three to four months. If I am going to meet him somewhere I will have him turn it on so I can call him if needed. I am older than most on this forum (72) and at least 1/2 of my friends only have flip phones, a few have no cell phone. (the rest do have smart phones, but one friend with poor eyesight gave up his smart phone for a flip so it would much easier to answer and carry.
I done talking about flip to smart phones, you can if you wish have the last word.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> Bigg, your missing my main point *SIZE* to make the phone easy for me to carry, that my main downside to getting one, if I missed what a smart phone can do for me enough I would put up with the size issue, I want to keep my cell phone in my shirt front pocket, when I not with people and at home I have a very good computer to work with, does many things that a smart phone could also do+ some things a smart phone can't do. (OK, a smart can also do some thing my computer can't do like making a check deposit) When I ready to put up with the bigger size I may get one, but for now I don't need a smart phone.
> I have one friend that keeps his flip phone in his car and off, only uses it if he can't make an appointment on time, charges it about every three to four months. If I am going to meet him somewhere I will have him turn it on so I can call him if needed. I am older than most on this forum (72) and at least 1/2 of my friends only have flip phones, a few have no cell phone. (the rest do have smart phones, but one friend with poor eyesight gave up his smart phone for a flip so it would much easier to answer and carry.
> I done talking about flip to smart phones, you can if you wish have the last word.


The point is being able to use it when you're not in front of your computer, not raw computational or I/O abilities. There are small smartphones out there, like some of the lower end Android devices and iPhones. The iPhone is tiny. I like the size, since it's easy to use one-handed, although I'll probably eventually end up with a giant Android phone, since I want to go back eventually.

A cell phone is USELESS if it's not on. Plenty of older people have smart phones. Even at the retirement facility my grandparents live at, a lot of people have iPhones and the like. They are too cheap to get iPhones themselves, even though they have tons of Apple gear...


----------



## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

Bigg said:


> A cell phone is USELESS if it's not on.


That's like saying an insurance policy is useless.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

lillevig said:


> That's like saying an insurance policy is useless.


Without a insurance claim an insurance policy *is useless *and costly, I never had a claim against my homeowners insurance, so that insurance has been useless to me over the last 40 or so years, and cost me a lot of money over the 40 years, bummer, UG. (but I sleep well because of that policy)


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lillevig said:


> That's like saying an insurance policy is useless.


A cell phone is not an insurance policy, it's a communication tool. It needs to be ON for it to be useful.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Bigg said:


> A cell phone is not an insurance policy, it's a communication tool. It needs to be ON for it to be useful.


False. My mother was able to continue working because she had a cell phone, turned off almost always, that she could call for help on if she had car troubles. Having the ability to communicate is useful, even if the phone was not communicating.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

CrispyCritter said:


> False. My mother was able to continue working because she had a cell phone, turned off almost always, that she could call for help on if she had car troubles. Having the ability to communicate is useful, even if the phone was not communicating.


Yeah, surprisingly a lot of people forget the phone is their tool, not the tool for everyone who wants to reach them. I have spent an inordinate amount of time with some people explaining how I don't feel obligated to answer the phone because it's ringing or vibrating. I own it for me to use when I want to use how I want to use it. That other people can call me on it and that I might even answer it when they do isn't why I have it.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> A cell phone is not an insurance policy, it's a communication tool. It needs to be ON for it to be useful.


Give me a break, a cell phone can be more useful off than no cell phone at all, if you don't want to get calls when your out you leave the cell phone off, have a problem, turn it on a call for help, better than a kick in the paints.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

lessd said:


> Without a insurance claim an insurance policy *is useless *and costly, I never had a claim against my homeowners insurance, so that insurance has been useless to me over the last 40 or so years, and cost me a lot of money over the 40 years, bummer, UG. (but I sleep well because of that policy)


No. Your definition of useless is incorrect.

The use is the contingency. Pretending a contingency has no value is a misuse of the word value.

Economics literally has measures for values based on percent chance of the value being realized. The value is based on a contingency. The usefulness is the contingency.

Stop murdering the English language.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dswallow said:


> Yeah, surprisingly a lot of people forget the phone is their tool, not the tool for everyone who wants to reach them.


This goes both ways. My tool is invalidated if the people I want to call have their phones off. I turn my phone on because I expect the same courtesy from the people I want to reach. Thereby making my phone more useful to me, while making their phones more useful to them.

I guess if you're so self-centered that you don't believe in reciprocity, then your post makes sense. Are you that self-centered? I hope not. That's pretty bad.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> This goes both ways. My tool is invalidated if the people I want to call have their phones off. I turn my phone on because I expect the same courtesy from the people I want to reach. Thereby making my phone more useful to me, while making their phones more useful to them.
> 
> I guess if you're so self-centered that you don't believe in reciprocity, then your post makes sense. Are you that self-centered? I hope not. That's pretty bad.


Depends on why you have a cell phone and how you use it. My cell phone sits in my car and is off, no reason for it to be on as I don't carry it with me. If someone wants me to be available by cell phone they have to arrange for me to have the cell phone with me and on ahead of time. Same for my parents, brother, nephew and several other people I know.

I have no desire to be connect 24/7 and in fact when I was younger I lived many years without any phone of any type. And guess what - the world didn't end!


----------



## christheman (Feb 21, 2013)

atmuscarella said:


> Depends on why you have a cell phone and how you use it. My cell phone sits in my car and is off, no reason for it to be on as I don't carry it with me. If someone wants me to be available by cell phone they have to arrange for me to have the cell phone with me and on ahead of time. Same for my parents, brother, nephew and several other people I know.
> 
> I have no desire to be connect 24/7 and in fact when I was younger I lived many years without any phone of any type. And guess what - the world didn't end!


You have to remember that you are on the Tivo Community forums..lol. If half of the people on this thread couldn't check their smart-phone for junk emails, they wouldn't know what to do with themselves and would hyperventilate.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> No. Your definition of useless is incorrect.
> 
> The use is the contingency. Pretending a contingency has no value is a misuse of the word value.
> 
> ...


I was referring to the comment that a *cell phone that is off is useless*, my point being that the same would be true for an insurance policy that you are not making a claim against, it and your turned off cell phone are available if and when you need it, they are not useless.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

CrispyCritter said:


> False. My mother was able to continue working because she had a cell phone, turned off almost always, that she could call for help on if she had car troubles. Having the ability to communicate is useful, even if the phone was not communicating.


1999 called. It wants it's AMPS brick phone with a NiCd battery pack and light up buttons back.



lessd said:


> Give me a break, a cell phone can be more useful off than no cell phone at all, if you don't want to get calls when your out you leave the cell phone off, have a problem, turn it on a call for help, better than a kick in the paints.


It's called silent mode. Then you can still get voicemail, texts, email, apps, etc whenever you want. I use my phone as a watch, so I check it enough that I'll get messages throughout the day if someone is trying to reach me.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I stopped wearing watches a long time ago becasue I had both a cell phone and also a pager that had a clock. Then I had a personal cellphone and a work cellphone each with a clock. Then four years ago I added a fitbit. So during the day, at work, I have three clocks on me. So there is no need for triple redundancy to carry a watch. My current double redundancy is more than enough.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> I stopped wearing watches a long time ago becasue I had both a cell phone and also a pager that had a clock. Then I had a personal cellphone and a work cellphone each with a clock. Then four years ago I added a fitbit. So during the day, at work, I have three clocks on me. So there is no need for triple redundancy to carry a watch. My current double redundancy is more than enough.


I like a watch because you can look at without anybody noticing, taking out your cell to see the time is a pain. It also serves as some jewelry, in place of a bracelet.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Grakthis said:


> This goes both ways. My tool is invalidated if the people I want to call have their phones off. I turn my phone on because I expect the same courtesy from the people I want to reach. Thereby making my phone more useful to me, while making their phones more useful to them.
> 
> I guess if you're so self-centered that you don't believe in reciprocity, then your post makes sense. Are you that self-centered? I hope not. That's pretty bad.


Obviously you don't get the concept.

Someone's job may require that they cold-call people using automated dialers and try to sell them something. My having a phone does not give that person any right whatsoever to make that call to me, nor does my having a phone in any way obligate me to (a) have it turned on or otherwise configured so that your call rings through, or (b) answer your call, even if you fake the caller ID making me think I might possibly know/want to talk to you.

Just because I may know someone does not mean I am in any way obligated to answer a call they make to me; I can choose to not answer it, letting it go to voice mail; and I can even choose to ignore the voice mail, or listen to it and/or return the call when it's convenient for me to do so.

If I am doing anything, including talking to someone, reading a book, watching TV, eating, petting a cat, browsing the web, sitting in a chair -- whatever -- I do not feel any obligation, just because you called me and my phone rang, to stop whatever it is I'm doing and answer your call.

Just because you "want" to reach me, and have my phone number, and a phone of some sort from which to call my phone number does not in any way obligate me to receive your call, answer your call, provide a means for you to leave a message, or to in any way return your call, message left or not, at any time later. All that is unrelated to my owning a phone. One has nothing to do with the other.

My having a phone is totally unrelated to any social contract I may have with you with regard to interaction, in person or otherwise, personal or business.

You are free to purchase a phone, smart or otherwise and use it in any way you see fit. That in itself does not in any way affect my use of my phone.

You are free to answer/not answer your phone in any way you want with no obligation to me, even if I'm the one calling you.

Understand yet?


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Bigg said:


> 1999 called. It wants it's AMPS brick phone with a NiCd battery pack and light up buttons back.


And that's an idiotic statement that has nothing to do with the topic at hand!

I made the claim that my mother's cell phone was not useless, even though it was turned off. Do you agree with that claim?


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dswallow said:


> Obviously you don't get the concept.
> 
> Someone's job may require that they cold-call people using automated dialers and try to sell them something. My having a phone does not give that person any right whatsoever to make that call to me, nor does my having a phone in any way obligate me to (a) have it turned on or otherwise configured so that your call rings through, or (b) answer your call, even if you fake the caller ID making me think I might possibly know/want to talk to you.
> 
> ...


+1


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

CrispyCritter said:


> And that's an idiotic statement that has nothing to do with the topic at hand!
> 
> I made the claim that my mother's cell phone was not useless, even though it was turned off. Do you agree with that claim?


I sure do!!


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> Depends on why you have a cell phone and how you use it. My cell phone sits in my car and is off, no reason for it to be on as I don't carry it with me. If someone wants me to be available by cell phone they have to arrange for me to have the cell phone with me and on ahead of time. Same for my parents, brother, nephew and several other people I know.
> 
> I have no desire to be connect 24/7 and in fact when I was younger I lived many years without any phone of any type. And guess what - the world didn't end!


Just so we're clear, I 100% support your usage of your cell phone. It's your phone. You should use it how you want to. I have family members who use cell phones how you do... it's not ideal, but I know that's what they do, and it's fine.

But I am addressing the SPECIFIC point about cell phones being tools you use, not tools for others to use. I've heard that quote before, and that quote expresses an ideal that is mean spirited and selfish.

I would like to hope your actual use case is more nuanced than "I want to get ahold of others when I want to and how I want to, but I don't want them to be able to get ahold of me."


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

lessd said:


> I was referring to the comment that a *cell phone that is off is useless*, my point being that the same would be true for an insurance policy that you are not making a claim against, it and your turned off cell phone are available if and when you need it, they are not useless.


I think you and I can both agree that both a turned-off cell phone and an unused insurance policy are both useful. Because they are both there as contingencies.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> I think you and I can both agree that both a turned-off cell phone and an unused insurance policy are both useful. Because they are both there as contingencies.


Ah! you got the correct word contingencies.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

CrispyCritter said:


> And that's an idiotic statement that has nothing to do with the topic at hand!
> 
> I made the claim that my mother's cell phone was not useless, even though it was turned off. Do you agree with that claim?


WOW you missed the point. Today's cell phones are always-on, always-connected devices. They aren't the devices of yesteryear that would run out of battery if they were left on all the time, and cost $.39/minute or something to make a local call. If you don't want to be bothered, silent mode is available, and you can still check periodically to see if anyone is reaching you...


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Bigg said:


> WOW you missed the point. Today's cell phones are always-on, always-connected devices. They aren't the devices of yesteryear that would run out of battery if they were left on all the time, and cost $.39/minute or something to make a local call. If you don't want to be bothered, silent mode is available, and you can still check periodically to see if anyone is reaching you...


No, I did not miss the point; your answer is irrelevant. You have still not responded to my direct question. Do you agree that my mother's phone was not useless?


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

CrispyCritter said:


> No, I did not miss the point; your answer is irrelevant. You have still not responded to my direct question. Do you agree that my mother's phone was not useless?


I am sure Bigg goes nuts when people leave their fax units off unless they want to send a fax or somebody calls them to turn it on to receive a fax, I have a fax and use it about once every 2 to 3 months, so it could be off most of the time, it is not off because it is part of my printer.
Most of us have things in our home we do not use on a regular basis, tools etc. so what, I have a Garmin Nav unit, I don't use it with my 11 year old Mercedes as the built in Nav is good enough for most places I go, when I went go DC or or other farther places I used my Garmin as it is up to date.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

CrispyCritter said:


> No, I did not miss the point; your answer is irrelevant. You have still not responded to my direct question. Do you agree that my mother's phone was not useless?


You missed my point. Cell phones are not mobile emergency phone booths anymore. They are mobile communications devices. Nowadays, they are primarily internet/email and text devices, but they still make phone calls when needed...



lessd said:


> I am sure Bigg goes nuts when people leave their fax units off unless they want to send a fax or somebody calls them to turn it on to receive a fax, I have a fax and use it about once every 2 to 3 months, so it could be off most of the time, it is not off because it is part of my printer.
> Most of us have things in our home we do not use on a regular basis, tools etc. so what, I have a Garmin Nav unit, I don't use it with my 11 year old Mercedes as the built in Nav is good enough for most places I go, when I went go DC or or other farther places I used my Garmin as it is up to date.


I don't have a fax unit, because that's an obsolete technology. I think I have sent one or two faxes at work because of bizarre and arcane security rules, but in general, I just scan and email since that's a heck of a lot easier than some clunky old fax machine.

However, other pieces of technology have nothing to do with always-on smartphones.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Bigg said:


> You missed my point. Cell phones are not mobile emergency phone booths anymore. They are mobile communications devices. Nowadays, they are primarily internet/email and text devices, but they still make phone calls when needed...


Please answer my direct question: Do you agree my mother's phone was not useless?


----------



## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

Bigg said:


> Cell phones are not mobile emergency phone booths anymore. They are mobile communications devices. Nowadays, they are primarily internet/email and text devices, but they still make phone calls when needed...


This is a riot. Thankfully, cell phones are versatile enough to accommodate the needs of the owner.

I'm much older than you, that's clear. My needs, and perspectives, are different. I'm wondering how many of us who don't view cell phones as a constant need, and have a fondness for being untethered =hours= at a time, came of age before answering machines. Many of my peers use their phones almost as constantly as you do, but I've a lot of company in those who don't: there are more of us than you realize, and we're not soon dying off


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

moonscape said:


> This is a riot. Thankfully, cell phones are versatile enough to accommodate the needs of the owner.
> 
> I'm much older than you, that's clear. My needs, and perspectives, are different. I'm wondering how many of us who don't view cell phones as a constant need, and have a fondness for being untethered =hours= at a time, came of age before answering machines. Many of my peers use their phones almost as constantly as you do, but I've a lot of company in those who don't: there are more of us than you realize, and we're not soon dying off


+1
99% of adults have cell phones but only 58% have smart phones, and for my friends that is correct as about 1/2 of the people I know do not have smart phones, and about 10% don't turn their cell phone on unless needed, my wife being one of them, I have mine on 24/7 as it connects to my land line when I am at home.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

lessd said:


> +1
> 99% of adults have cell phones but only 58% have smart phones, and for my friends that is correct as about 1/2 of the people I know do not have smart phones, and about 10% don't turn their cell phone on unless needed, my wife being one of them, I have mine on 24/7 as it connects to my land line when I am at home.


Just to stay in the voice arena, one thing my smart phone can do is forward my landline to my cellphone on the fly when I am out. Also if I don't forward to my cell phone I can still see who is calling my landline via a notification. That has come in very useful at times. I can also play voice messages on my home phone from my cell phone. Again very useful!


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

CrispyCritter said:


> Please answer my direct question: Do you agree my mother's phone was not useless?


If a cell phone is not turned on, it's useless.



moonscape said:


> This is a riot. Thankfully, cell phones are versatile enough to accommodate the needs of the owner.
> 
> I'm much older than you, that's clear. My needs, and perspectives, are different. I'm wondering how many of us who don't view cell phones as a constant need, and have a fondness for being untethered =hours= at a time, came of age before answering machines. Many of my peers use their phones almost as constantly as you do, but I've a lot of company in those who don't: there are more of us than you realize, and we're not soon dying off


If I don't want to be reached, I put my iPhone on silent and flip it over or put it in my pocket. That's one of the advantages of using a cell phone as my only phone, and not having an annoying landline. But at the same time, it's always there if I want it.



lessd said:


> +1
> 99% of adults have cell phones but only 58% have smart phones, and for my friends that is correct as about 1/2 of the people I know do not have smart phones, and about 10% don't turn their cell phone on unless needed, my wife being one of them, I have mine on 24/7 as it connects to my land line when I am at home.


So a lot of people aren't with the program. We knew that already. There's also a lot of people who don't have DVRs. Again, not with the program.



zalusky said:


> Just to stay in the voice arena, one thing my smart phone can do is forward my landline to my cellphone on the fly when I am out. Also if I don't forward to my cell phone I can still see who is calling my landline via a notification. That has come in very useful at times. I can also play voice messages on my home phone from my cell phone. Again very useful!


The nice part about the world of cell phones if that you don't need a landline! I'm glad I don't have yet another phone for people to annoy me on. It's all in one place.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dswallow said:


> Obviously you don't get the concept.
> 
> Someone's job may require that they cold-call people using automated dialers and try to sell them something. My having a phone does not give that person any right whatsoever to make that call to me, nor does my having a phone in any way obligate me to (a) have it turned on or otherwise configured so that your call rings through, or (b) answer your call, even if you fake the caller ID making me think I might possibly know/want to talk to you.
> 
> ...


My original response was deleted, because I guess it was too insulting. SO let's try again.

Human culture has a concept called reciprocity. Reciprocity says "I do X for you, you do X for me, and this is proper social behavior."

I extend my hand and introduce myself, you extend yours and introduce yourself. Reciprocity.

This same notion extends to cell phones. Social obligations are not moral or legal obligations (which seems to be your entire point) but that doesn't matter, as they are still social obligations.

Just as I wouldn't be friends with someone who refused to shake my hand or look me in the eyes, I also wouldn't be friends with someone whose ethos on cell phone usage was "I turn it on when I want to call people and leave it off otherwise." Because I am not friends with people who do not agree to the same social contract that I do.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> Just as I wouldn't be friends with someone who refused to shake my hand or look me in the eyes, I also wouldn't be friends with someone whose ethos on cell phone usage was "I turn it on when I want to call people and leave it off otherwise." Because I am not friends with people who do not agree to the same social contract that I do.


Shaking one hand when you meet you compare to having a cell phone on!!!, you call this a social contract, IMHO you are way off base, my friendships have never had anything to do with their cell phone status, when you meet someone for the first time and shake their hand do you also grill them on giving you their cell phone number and how they use their cell phone???

_Hi, I am Tom but before I shake your hand and look you in the eyes and say anything to you I need to know your cell phone use and your cell phone number (don't have a cell phone or don't keep it on 24/7, then by-by as I will find a new friend that does know *proper cell phone etiquette*) 
_


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Bigg said:


> The nice part about the world of cell phones if that you don't need a landline! I'm glad I don't have yet another phone for people to annoy me on. It's all in one place.


When you have great coverage indoors! I know it is a growing trend but my cell is still not as reliable as my landline inside the house. We also still have a fax for medical and various legal needs.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Grakthis said:


> My original response was deleted, because I guess it was too insulting. SO let's try again.
> 
> Human culture has a concept called reciprocity. Reciprocity says "I do X for you, you do X for me, and this is proper social behavior."
> 
> ...


That aspect is what I considered the "social contract" I mentioned. Absent that sort of social contract, you're just another cold caller interrupting whatever I'm doing. Leave a message; I may or may not choose to answer it live.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

zalusky said:


> When you have great coverage indoors! I know it is a growing trend but my cell is still not as reliable as my landline inside the house. We also still have a fax for medical and various legal needs.


There's the Microcell/Network Extender. I have a Microcell at my parents' house, at my house, we have good AT&T service, but my roommates have the Verizon Network extender and the Sprint AirRave for their phones...

Yeah, I've run into the medical paperwork issue, I usually end up having to pick it up. I wish there was a way to waive my rights the idiotic HIPPA-CRAPPA law and just have them email them to me. Would be so much easier.


----------

