# HR10-250 and OTA HD Antenna



## b_money (Nov 11, 2004)

Just got DirecTV with the HD Tivo box & so far seems OK, but I was led to believe that HD locals are available in my area (Oakland/SF, CA). After flipping through the online program guide looks like that is not the case. Most of our favorite HD shows are on CBS, NBC, etc. so this is a bit of a bummer. Looking to you folks for a little advice.

Can an OTA HD antenna be connected to the back of the HR10-250 to pull in the HD locals? If so, can the HR10-250 record these HD local channels?

Does anyone have referrals to a good OTA antenna installer in the SF Bay Area, specifically the East Bay (Pittsburg/Antioch)?

Thanks in advance -

Brandon


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## heathramos (Jul 26, 2004)

b_money said:


> Just got DirecTV with the HD Tivo box & so far seems OK, but I was led to believe that HD locals are available in my area (Oakland/SF, CA). After flipping through the online program guide looks like that is not the case. Most of our favorite HD shows are on CBS, NBC, etc. so this is a bit of a bummer. Looking to you folks for a little advice.
> 
> Can an OTA HD antenna be connected to the back of the HR10-250 to pull in the HD locals? If so, can the HR10-250 record these HD local channels?
> 
> ...


Directv makes a HD receiver that picks up HD Local channels in the Bay Area but it isn't a dvr (that isn't out yet).

The HR10-250 can pick up hd local channels but only thru OTA antenna.

You might be able to get the nathional feeds. Not sure about that part.


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## Chesney09 (Nov 11, 2004)

b_money said:


> Just got DirecTV with the HD Tivo box & so far seems OK, but I was led to believe that HD locals are available in my area (Oakland/SF, CA). After flipping through the online program guide looks like that is not the case. Most of our favorite HD shows are on CBS, NBC, etc. so this is a bit of a bummer. Looking to you folks for a little advice.
> 
> Can an OTA HD antenna be connected to the back of the HR10-250 to pull in the HD locals? If so, can the HR10-250 record these HD local channels?
> 
> ...


I am a bit surprised you dished out some pretty good cash and without knowing what you actually bought.

Anyways.. Yes, You can pick up locals with an OTA antenna. THere is an RF input on the back of the HD Tivo. You should look up what kind of antenna you need.. Dammit. What is that website... www.antennaweb.org 
It'll give you an idea of how far you are and what kind of antenna you'll need to pick them up.

Yes, you can record the HD locals on the Tivo.

Tivo is your friend.


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## b_money (Nov 11, 2004)

Yeah, actually I thought I had done my homework - the DirecTV website lists the SF locals as being available in HD, so I called the sales department to confirm, and they told me what I wanted to hear. I now understand the SF locals *are* available through the non-DVR MPEG-4 box, but that wasn't made clear to me up front.

Can I just call any electrician to come and hook up the antenna? The one satellite installer I checked with said his company won't install them. ???


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## Chesney09 (Nov 11, 2004)

D* does have an antenna you can have attached to the dish.. and they DO install them. 
I would call D* back and tell them to get their asses back out and get you hooked up.

Otherwise, You will need to figure out how far you are from the broadcast towers to determine what antenna you need. antennaweb.org is a good place to start. 

From thee.. do some searchesin the forum and you will find this issue talked about much as... Obviously.. we are all in the same boat.


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## Charlutz (Apr 7, 2005)

The first thing you should try is hooking up some rabbit ears to the HR10 if you have them laying around. They are pretty good if you're above ground and reasonably close to the antennas. You then have to go into the setup menu to make sure you're configured correctly. I don't remember if you have to enable the OTA antennas, but it's pretty self explanatory. One of the things you have to do is punch in your zip code which will allow the guide to download the program data for your local digital stations. You can then use the channel setup to remove all of the channels for which you don't want to see the program data. Once you get over the fact that they don't go out of their way to make sure they tell you everything you need to know, t's really not that bad to get set up properly.


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## bclasen (Apr 6, 2006)

heathramos said:


> You might be able to get the nathional feeds. Not sure about that part.


Just had my dish installed a couple of days ago - in the process, we temporarily took down my OTA antenna (it goes back up over the weekend). Once that is connected, I expect to get my locals in HD. But last night I was surprised that the national feeds (listed in HD) were not available to me (BTW, I'm in the DC area). What determines if you have access to national feeds? I thought it was part of the package (I have the total choice one, I believe).

And because I'm too lazy to look it up (my manual is at home, I'm at work) - do you need to access OTA stations any differently or are they available when you use the Live TV button? I'll figure it out once the antenna is up, but am curious.

Thanks,
B


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## fatcat220 (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi b_money. I also live in the Bay Area (Campbell, near San Jose). I have the HR10-250, a Channel Master 4228 8-Bay UHF Antenna and a Panasonic 50" plasma. The OTA channels come in just as clear as the DTV stuff. The OTA channels are integrated seamlessly into TiVo. The guide shows the OTA channels as dash numbers (like 9-1). I'm only getting digital SD and HD OTA channels, and the HD channels are the only ones I needed to augment the DTV offering. I'm pretty happy with my setup.


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## Cornloaf (Feb 18, 2004)

I got the HR10-250 installed last weekend. I had an existing UHF/VHF antenna on my roof ready to go for my local channels. I also bought one of the amplified antennas that the installer had in his truck. I don't remember the brand, but it looked like one of the Pentagon's unmanned planes. 

I am 13.5 miles from the tower that broadcasts most of the signals. I was able to pickup FOX, ABC, and NBC. No CBS or PBS. Weird thing is that FOX, ABC, CBS and PBS are coming from the same source. I spent about an hour tweaking the antenna and even connected the new amplified antenna. After a few minutes, I realized it was junk and switched back to the older UHF/VHF antenna. I was now able to get CBS and PBS, but I lost FOX. I spent another half hour and finally got FOX, CBS, and NBC but lost PBS and ABC. After two days of watching the off-air stuff, I realized that FOX is barely watchable. It pixelates so much and has a habit of doing it right during some major dialog.

I called DirecTV and told them that I upgraded so I could get HD local channels and record them. I asked them to turn on the west coast feeds until they were able to provide me with my local stations via sat. They are putting in the waiver request now. Last time I requested a waiver was when NBC pulled its affiliation with KRON and changed to KNTV. The sat signal was awful in the bay area and the off-air was non-existent. They rejected my waiver. Now I am not sure what to do. I have gone back to recording the SD signals from sat. 

DirecTV tried to put some of the blame on me. They said I should have just got the H20 and 5-LNB dish and leased a standalone HD DVR from them. They said that mid-2006 they will have support for the 5LNB + receiver/HD DVR. This would "require a free dish upgrade and receiver upgrade." I asked them why they didn't just put the 5LNB dish on my house in the first place and they said it was not compatible with the HR10-250.

I think I'll call the installer directly and have him take a look at the antenna. I tipped him when he came out so hopefully he'll take that into consideration. One thing to note is that I did notice a fairly big tree blocks my line of sight to the towers. I can see them from other houses in the neighborhood, but not from my roof.

so sad


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

Read this thread. Maybe something in here will help. 

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290785


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## dogdoctor (Feb 20, 2006)

Cornloaf said:


> I am 13.5 miles from the tower that broadcasts most of the signals. I was able to pickup FOX, ABC, and NBC. No CBS or PBS. Weird thing is that FOX, ABC, CBS and PBS are coming from the same source. I spent about an hour tweaking the antenna and even connected the new amplified antenna. After a few minutes, I realized it was junk and switched back to the older UHF/VHF antenna. I was now able to get CBS and PBS, but I lost FOX. I spent another half hour and finally got FOX, CBS, and NBC but lost PBS and ABC. After two days of watching the off-air stuff, I realized that FOX is barely watchable. It pixelates so much and has a habit of doing it right during some major dialog.


Cornloaf...to me it really sounds like a mulipath issue - hell I can't believe I am actually using the term. You should read my thread over at avs forum. Turns out for me it was a combination of the damn diplexors and multipath issues. Here is what I would do. I would by premade 100' of RG6 cable from home depot and run the antenna right to box - don't even bother making it look pretty, this is just a test run. If all signals come in good prepare yourself to ditch the diplexors and run a line yourself - not that hard, 1 hour tops (return the 100' and buy straight RG6 of the length needed - much cheaper if you make/cut the line your self). If the antenna doesn't work right to the box...now move it around the roof and tweak it till it does. If it never does work, you need a different antenna. Once you find the correct location mount it to the roof and reconnect to the tivo with the diplexors the D* installers used and check the signal reception. If it works, return the 100' and run an appropriate line to the diplexor. If it still sucks mud now but is ok stright to the box, again ditch the diplexors. I wasted nearly 6 hours marching around the roof, come to find it was only partially a multipath problem - the rest was diplexors.

If the thread doesn't help check the AVS forum on OTA hardware and reception. Hope this helps.

Ben

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=666325


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## Cornloaf (Feb 18, 2004)

Thanks for the suggestions. The installer ran a separate cable for the antenna because he only had one diplexor and didn't want to fool around with it. He said it would be better without them... lucky me.

I did not move around the roof because the mast for my antenna is about 6-7 feet tall and already bolted to a raised part of my roof. I think I only have a couple feet in either direction that I can move it and still have a place to mount a bracket. I do not use my fireplace so I might try to move it to that side of the house and see what kind of signal I can get. At least that would give me something sturdy to mount the antenna to. 

I have to admit, the uhf/vhf antenna that I am using is pretty old, but works great to get in SD UHF/VHF channels. And it worked better than this new batwing antenna that I bought. 

I'm on a business trip right now, but will fool around with it when I get back in a few days. I do have about 45 days before I'll hear from the networks on my waiver! 

One thing that I noticed is that some of my channels will go from 0-20 really fast and the strength meter never displays the channel name. Other channels are just stuck at 0. NBC is around 80 and the others I get are about 40-50. I just noticed that NBC is the only VHF station and the rest (even independents) are UHF. Should I get something like a channel master 4228 and hope for the best with NBC?


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## dogdoctor (Feb 20, 2006)

So that elimates the diplexor issue - thats awesome. When I mentioned signals of 92 on some channels and 0 on ABC - AVS guys said it has to be multipath. I think the only way you are going to get around that is either trying a new antenna, but more than likely you are close enough for your original antenna that just moving it is best. 6-7 ft tall mast is tall - mine is only 2.5-3 ft and I'm 17 miles from the towers with moderate trees. You can always wait for waivers, but I suspect that you need to move the antenna to a better location to reduce the multipath.

good luck


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

Cornloaf said:


> ...I have to admit, the uhf/vhf antenna that I am using is pretty old...


Hell man, for 20 buck (plus 12 shipping) get one of these. I did. Works great!

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

I love when dtv says dtivo wont work with the new dish. I do wonder if it's a bad script or if they make it up on their own? I think people should start writing down employee names and reporting this patently false info. 

it's well documented that in places that have mpeg 4 available today, that they install the new dish even if you only have hdtivo installed. Saves them $ later down the road.


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## thecrave (Dec 3, 2004)

There is such a thing as TOO much antenna for OTA. I need to pickup half my stations from 110 degrees, and the other from 320 degrees and each are about 15-20 miles away. I used a $25 Radio Shack boom antenna and turned out, it was TOO good. I used join-tennas to isolate the stations I needed, but I had all sorts of multi-path issues.

I ended up putting up two 2-bay Eagle Aspen antennas (D* installed 1, I bought the other on eBay) and using a regular old cable splitter/combiner (with only -3.5db loss each). Works awesome. No multi-path, and I even pick up CBC in Toronto, which is 75 miles away (as the crow flies, from Buffalo), giving me Hockey Night in Canada in HD. I have signal strength of about 90 on all stations, which means in real bad weather I get some loss, but proves that you can have TOO much antenna for your own good. Ahhh, goodness.

http://www.eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=49


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

thecrave said:


> There is such a thing as TOO much antenna for OTA. I need to pickup half my stations from 110 degrees, and the other from 320 degrees and each are about 15-20 miles away. I used a $25 Radio Shack boom antenna and turned out, it was TOO good...I have signal strength of about 90 on all stations, which means in real bad weather I get some loss, but proves that you can have TOO much antenna for your own good. Ahhh, goodness...


 I won't go so far as to disagree with your point, but I will say I think it is a gross oversimplification. Your anecdotal info is just that, and reflects a narrow example. For a particular rare scenario, an antenna that is more-directional with more gain might not be the perfect fit, but for most situations, the more-directional the better.

If you are dealing with reception you are dealing with two things, raw signal level and a ratio of signal level to interference. Raw signal level can be affected by your choice of antenna, that is true, but the antenna chosen should never be chosen specifically because of the amount of gain it has, because that can be addressed after the fact (in between the antenna and the tuner) with amps, attenuators, traps, and other distribution strategies.

The ratio of desired signal to unwanted signal is approached totally differently, by chosing an antenna with the proper directionality (off-axis rejection) and bandwidth for a particular reception scenario, and by placing that antenna in the optimum position. And that is the FIRST step, because you can't manipulate those parameters effectively after the fact, or really in any other practical way.

Once you have the antenna figured out (in terms of pickup pattern and bandwidth), only then worry about the amount of gain it might have and address that, after the fact, as needed.

Bottom line, if a particular antenna will work for your scenario, a bigger, better, hotter, more expensive, and more-directional antenna with a similar bandwidth will normally work at least as well (if distribution is handled properly). The only time it would be a detriment would be if you were trying to receive from two directions with a single antenna. In that case a highly-directional antenna is not "too much" antenna, but simply the wrong choice of antenna for that scenario. So if you oversimplify MY point, it is the opposite of yours, which is you never can have too much antenna.

And, for most HD reception situations, you can't do better than the best antenna out there as far as directionality, gain, and bandwidth goes, which is the CM 4228. It is also not expensive and is easy to install, and will hold up well in wind and environment. Unless you are trying to pick up low-band VHF DT, or stations in wildly different directions, this is the antenna to beat.


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## Cornloaf (Feb 18, 2004)

Thanks again for the replies. I am thinking about going with the CM4221 or CM4228 and hope for the best. I only have one VHF station that I need to pickup :

KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 310° 8.4 12 

The rest of the stations are UHF and most of the important ones are at 313°. What do you think the chances are that I'll get NBC? Currently NBC is my strongest channel so I am getting my hopes up.


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

Cornloaf said:


> Thanks again for the replies. I am thinking about going with the CM4221 or CM4228 and hope for the best. I only have one VHF station that I need to pickup :
> 
> KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 310° 8.4 12
> 
> The rest of the stations are UHF and most of the important ones are at 313°. What do you think the chances are that I'll get NBC? Currently NBC is my strongest channel so I am getting my hopes up.


I've got the CM 4228. Our local NBC affiliate DTV signal is on Channel 10. The 4228 works very well there in hi-band VHF. In fact their analog signal is on Channel 11 and it also looks great. I'm 32+ miles from their transmitting antennae.


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## Cornloaf (Feb 18, 2004)

Ok. I couldn't think of any reason not to try the 4228 for only $39.50 from Warren Electronic. Thanks for the link Philly Bill!

Hopefully it arrives before the weekend so I can try it out. I'll report my results here.


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## redfiver (Apr 17, 2006)

Cornloaf said:


> Ok. I couldn't think of any reason not to try the 4228 for only $39.50 from Warren Electronic. Thanks for the link Philly Bill!
> 
> Hopefully it arrives before the weekend so I can try it out. I'll report my results here.


From Burlingame, you should be okay with that antenna. I live in San Jose and have an 8bow antenna and I get all of the OTA stations. The only exception is KTVU - FOX. I *usually* get that station, but it pixelates pretty bad sometime. I have my antenna pointed toward Mt. San Bruno/Sutro which lets all the other stations come in just fine.

Recently, KQED - PBS has been having equipment issues with their OTA Digital broadcasts and hasn't been broadcasting. Most of their customers don't use OTA, so they only broadcast the HD station at certain times of the day, and usually with a lower bandwidth. KQED, to their credit, has been great about informing their customers of issues they are having with Digital OTA broadcasts via their digital TV email list.

KNTV - NBC should come in just fine for you. It comes in great for me. The recently moved their broadcast antenna to Mt. San Bruno and have had no problems. They are also very up-front about how/when they broadcast and have communicated all of the changes well. I've been very happy with the response both of those stations have had to any requests I've put to them (and now I have several contact names inside of both stations, which is kinda fun!)

KTVU - FOX is a different story. They don't return emails or phone calls about their signal. The folks at KNTV and KQED both told me that KTVU doesn't send out a strong broadcast signal and folks in the South Bay will always have some difficult receiving their signal. I thought about trying to pick up a FOX station from Salinas, but it's just too far for the direction my 8bow is facing.

I've tried a KAGI-style antenna and the 8bow UHF, the UHF is the only way to go. Only KTVU and KNTV broadcast in VHF, but KNTV is strong enough to be still picked up crystal clear on the UHF antenna. KTVU was a problem for the VHF antenna as well. You might get better results being in Burlingame.


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## Cornloaf (Feb 18, 2004)

I went to antennaweb.org and it is reporting that KTVU is using UHF. Did something change recently?

KTVU-DT 2.1 FOX OAKLAND CA 319° 13.1 56 

I had great KTVU reception before messing around with my antenna to get CBS so I am pretty confident the 4228 will help out.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Cornloaf said:


> I went to antennaweb.org and it is reporting that KTVU is using UHF. Did something change recently?
> 
> KTVU-DT 2.1 FOX OAKLAND CA 319° 13.1 56
> 
> I had great KTVU reception before messing around with my antenna to get CBS so I am pretty confident the 4228 will help out.


here's the info on that station

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?stat...t2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

appears it's been UHF for a while but i'm not sure i'm reading stuff right...someone else will have to confirm

or you can go to avsforums to look at the thread for your area


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

one way you can sortof test for multipath is to tune into an anlalog station from the same location, if you see ghosting, this is a result of multipath


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

of course you have to have another tuner


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## Cornloaf (Feb 18, 2004)

I got a generic $24.50 UHF antenna from Radio Shack and I get almost every channel now and most around 90% signal!

A weird thing happened yesterday though. I was watching 24 and it came through with 5.1 audio and 4:3 SD video! Not sure how to contact my local Fox station to ask what was wrong.



redfiver said:


> KTVU - FOX is a different story. They don't return emails or phone calls about their signal.


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## davidyohn (May 4, 2006)

Thanks for all this great info. The Channel Master 4228 antenna is touted as UHF only, but KNTV's DTV signal is VHF. Is there some special trick toget this antenna to pick it up?

Thanks!


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

davidyohn said:


> Thanks for all this great info. The Channel Master 4228 antenna is touted as UHF only, but KNTV's DTV signal is VHF. Is there some special trick toget this antenna to pick it up?
> 
> Thanks!


Apparently KNTV's digital signal is on Channel 12. The Channel Master 4228 works very well at the high-band VHF channels. So you should be OK. No special tricks. But here's some advice, make sure the two halves of the screens (like chicken wire) are bonded together well. I used small hose-clamps. That screen is a reflector, and if its characteristics are not correct, the antenna won't work well on high-band VHF. Mine was intermittent. When I tightly bonded those two screens, the intermittent went away. Trust me, this is from personal experience. Good luck and enjoy!


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## davidyohn (May 4, 2006)

Hey, thanks for the tip. i will do as you suggest when the antenna arrives. Thanks!


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

www.hdtvprimer.com can support those findings on the 4228. While not designed for high-V, bonding the screen seems to make it work very well for high-V (without compromising UHF performance).


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## golf ace (May 6, 2006)

Hi there
I asked this on a deferent site but thought I would give it a try here. If I have cable and D* can I put the "cable" in the OTA input on an hr10-250. I would like to be able to tivo my hd locals.
thanks


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

golf ace said:


> Hi there
> I asked this on a deferent site but thought I would give it a try here. If I have cable and D* can I put the "cable" in the OTA input on an hr10-250. I would like to be able to tivo my hd locals.
> thanks


No. Cable uses a different type of output.


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