# MPEG4 comes to Fios



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

I just saw this over on AVS Forum -- the first h.264 Fios channels have rolled out, on 1472, 1473 and 1474. These are part of the baseball package, and I'm not subscribed, but I can confirm that my Premiere shows them as h.264 in the diagnostics screen. Someone who subscribes to the MLB package should check them out. May require 20.2.0a. But I'm putting this in the Coffee House instead of the Premiere section in the probably-vain hope that even a Series 3 might pick them up.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

The COX Phoenix Market has been testing h.264 for a while now. 

TiVo's have had no problem turning the channels, even before software version 20. However, there are issues where cox can't properly map the channels to the cable card, and tech support has to map each authorized channel individual. (It was an issues on cox's head end and nothing to do with Tivo).

As long as Fios doesn't have any authorization issues, TiVo's should have no problem what so ever with the h.264 channels.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

This is good news then. I wish FiOS would switch all their HD channels to MPEG4 to free up space for more HD channels. Plus this would also have the benefit of more recording space on our TiVos as well since H.264 uses less space than MPEG2.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

So I assume the TiVo is recording these channels in the h.264 format and not converting them back to MPEG2 in some way...

Will this impact the PyTiVo decryption logic?

h.264 is 50% smaller then MPEG2 so this should be really good news if everything works the way it should!


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## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

bradleys said:


> So I assume the TiVo is recording these channels in the h.264 format and not converting them back to MPEG2 in some way...
> 
> Will this impact the PyTiVo decryption logic?
> 
> h.264 is 50% smaller then MPEG2 so this should be really good news if everything works the way it should!


Your Tivo will continue to simply the record the digital feeds as-is. It will most likely be a TS file with H.264 video.

I would suspect that the decryption logic will need to be more inline with the Australian Tivos, but I suspect that is also why William is curious.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

LoREvanescence said:


> The COX Phoenix Market has been testing h.264 for a while now.
> 
> TiVo's have had no problem turning the channels, even before software version 20. However, there are issues where cox can't properly map the channels to the cable card, and tech support has to map each authorized channel individual. (*It was an issues on cox's head end and nothing to do with Tivo*).
> 
> As long as Fios doesn't have any authorization issues, TiVo's should have no problem what so ever with the h.264 channels.


Where did you get this information? I have not seen a single posting where a Cox customer using a TiVo Premiere was receiving the H.264 channels without the TiVo beta software, which should be rolled into the Spring update. Margret has also confirmed a TiVo software update is needed for the Cox MPEG4 channels.

No one has revealed the actual issue, However, I can say the issue most likely has to due with copy protection where the TiVo software does not match the CCI Byte reported by the CableCARD. TiVo software reports all H.264 channels as 0x00 while the CableCARD is reporting 0x02, which is the correct CCI Byte Cox passes.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

CoxInPHX said:


> Where did you get this information? I have not seen a single posting where a Cox customer using a TiVo Premiere was receiving the H.264 channels without the TiVo beta software, which should be rolled into the Spring update. Margret has also confirmed a TiVo software update is needed for the Cox MPEG4 channels.
> 
> No one has revealed the actual issue, However, I can say the issue most likely has to due with copy protection where the TiVo software does not match the CCI Byte reported by the CableCARD. TiVo software reports all H.264 channels as 0x00 while the CableCARD is reporting 0x02, which is the correct CCI Byte Cox passes.


honestly sounds like tivo is not tuning the proper channel. 0x00 is less restrictive then 0x02 so that shouldn't stop tivo from recording or displaying. Also if the tivo and the cable system dont properly negotiate the CCI flags withen a fraction of a second the the tivo is supposed to default to (off the top of my head) 0x03 since it's most restrictive. So if there was a problem with flags tivo wouldn't show 0x00. So it must not even be tuning or decoding the stream or something like that.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

CoxInPHX said:


> Where did you get this information? I have not seen a single posting where a Cox customer using a TiVo Premiere was receiving the H.264 channels without the TiVo beta software, which should be rolled into the Spring update. Margret has also confirmed a TiVo software update is needed for the Cox MPEG4 channels.
> 
> No one has revealed the actual issue, However, I can say the issue most likely has to due with copy protection where the TiVo software does not match the CCI Byte reported by the CableCARD. TiVo software reports all H.264 channels as 0x00 while the CableCARD is reporting 0x02, which is the correct CCI Byte Cox passes.


I read some where, ether here or avs forums. That one one spend like 2 to 4 hours on the phone with tech support and they were able to authorized each channel individually and make them work.

But I only ever saw one post of someone saying they worked and that was a issue, everyone else said they weren't working. So, I dunno if that is true or not.

I also don't know if they had beta software or what the version was, I just know it was before the roll out of 20.x that I read it.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> my Premiere shows them as h.264 in the diagnostics screen. Someone who subscribes to the MLB package should check them out. May require 20.2.0a. But I'm putting this in the Coffee House instead of the Premiere section in the probably-vain hope that even a Series 3 might pick them up.


How would someone with a TiVo HD even know if those channels are h.264? E.g. I can tune those channels (they don't decrypt since I don't subscribe) but there is nothing on my "Account & System Information / DVR Diagnostics" screen to indicate h.264.

Or do you mean some other "diagnostics screen"? I can tune the channels using "Settings / Channels / Signal Strength - Cable". It reports "Digital signal acquired", but once again no indication if it's h.264.

BTW, the outsourced "programmers" TiVo hires in Elbonia still haven't bothered to fix the long festering bug that locks up the TiVo when entering "DVR Diagnostics", but that's just par for the course. Nothing that a pull-the-power-cord reboot can't fix.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

On the Premiere it's the DVR diagnostics screen. Even though it says I'm not subscribed to the channel, the DVR diagnostics screen will show H.264 for the Video PID for that channel.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> On the Premiere it's the DVR diagnostics screen. Even though it says I'm not subscribed to the channel, the DVR diagnostics screen will show H.264 for the Video PID for that channel.


The TiVo HD isn't as friendly.

Currently:
102 CNBC Video PID: 0x4BB
1474 MLB Video PID: 0x1D11


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Yes, the indicator (MPEG2 or H.264) is Premiere-only. It's possible that actually tuning the h.264 channels will also be Premiere-only. At this point, I don't know.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Are there no Fios customers with the MLB package here? Come on, I wanna know if it works!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

One thing I know for sure is that the S3/HD units will not be able to support transferring H.264 recordings to a PC via TiVoToGo without an update. The S3/HD units still use the old program stream format for TTG transfers while the Premiere units use the newer transport stream format. The old PS format does not support H.264.* This is actually the main reason TiVo developed the new TS format. When they released TiVo in New Zealand a few years back they had to come up with the TS format because a lot of their channels in NZ use H.264 encoding.

So unless TiVo decides to release an update for the S3/HD platform I would not expect to be able to transfer any H.264 files via TTG even if they can properly tune and record the channels.

One more thing... It's bad form to use MPEG-4 and H.264 interchangeably. While H.264 is technically part of the MPEG-4 specification most people use MPEG-4 to refer to MPEG-4 pt.2, which is the older portion of the spec that DivX and Xvid were based on. H.264 is MPEG-4 pt.10 and is usually referred to as either H.264 or AVC. 

Dan

* H.264 can actually be forced into a PS file, but it's non standard and very few programs support it for playback.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

I don't think most people outside "the scene" ever refer to, or encounter, DivX or Xvid at all. "MPEG-4" is a common term, of the sort that's used by marketers, and you can see it reflected in the ".mp4" file extension. "H.264" is more precise, but it's too much a mouthful for most people, most of the time; too technical.

P.S. What I'm saying is, h.264 _is_ mainstream MPEG-4.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

I don't really understand all this technical stuff but does this mean that AMC will get a better quality feed? I can't even watch the horrible feed that is provided. I have to get all of my AMC shows through BT. Some of the scenes are barely watchable especially when it is a low lit scene.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> I don't really understand all this technical stuff but does this mean that AMC will get a better quality feed? I can't even watch the horrible feed that is provided. I have to get all of my AMC shows through BT. Some of the scenes are barely watchable especially when it is a low lit scene.


The low bitrate is from the source. AMC sends it at a low bitrate.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

wmcbrine said:


> I don't think most people outside "the scene" ever refer to, or encounter, DivX or Xvid at all. "MPEG-4" is a common term, of the sort that's used by marketers, and you can see it reflected in the ".mp4" file extension. "H.264" is more precise, but it's too much a mouthful for most people, most of the time; too technical.
> 
> P.S. What I'm saying is, h.264 _is_ mainstream MPEG-4.


While the marketers may use it interchangeably, it's still wrong. The term MPEG-4 is used by most people in the industry to refer to MPEG-4 pt.2. We use AVC or H.264 to refer to MPEG-4 pt.10.

Whatever I was just trying to educate people, not chastise anyone.

Dan


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## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> The low bitrate is from the source. AMC sends it at a low bitrate.


I believe his question was *will* AMC be sending a better feed if they move to H.264. Hopefully, is probably the only answer you will get. Not sure if aadam101 uses Crime Warner Cable or not, but my feed for FX, AMC, SyFy and other cable SD channels is breadboxed and low bitrate. Horrid indeed.

P.S. I agree with Dan203 in regards to MPEG4/H.264 terminology. I ALWAYS think MPEG-4 part2 when people say MPEG-4. And only think of MPEG-4 part10 when folks say H.264/AVC. I was never even a dabbler in XVID. I guess it comes from reading some of the video editing boards.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

txporter said:


> I believe his question was *will* AMC be sending a better feed if they move to H.264. Hopefully, is probably the only answer you will get. Not sure if aadam101 uses Crime Warner Cable or not, but my feed for FX, AMC, SyFy and other cable SD channels is breadboxed and low bitrate. Horrid indeed.
> 
> ...


But FiOS switching to MPEG4 ..oops.. H.264 has nothing to do with what bitrate or format that AMC sends their content.

My Algolith Flea really comes in handy from broadcast sources. It does a great job cleaning things up. I wish they never stopped making them.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

txporter said:


> I believe his question was *will* AMC be sending a better feed if they move to H.264. Hopefully, is probably the only answer you will get. Not sure if aadam101 uses Crime Warner Cable or not, but my feed for FX, AMC, SyFy and other cable SD channels is breadboxed and low bitrate. Horrid indeed.


Like aaronwt said, AMC is not changing the way they send content. Most likely FIOS will be re-encoding the mpeg-2 feed on the fly. So FIOS will not be able to improve the quality but it will just let them save bandwidth for more channels/content. It would break too many things if the networks themselves switched to h.264 at the source. I'm sure some point in the future more networks will do that but I don't see it happening in the near future.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Verizon is not planning on reencoding anything to MPEG-4, AFAIK. Rather, they already reencode a bunch of channels _from_ h.264 to MPEG-2, and their goal is to stop doing that. I think in the long term most channel providers will switch, but some already have.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> Verizon is not planning on reencoding anything to MPEG-4, AFAIK. Rather, they already reencode a bunch of channels _from_ h.264 to MPEG-2, and their goal is to stop doing that. I think in the long term most channel providers will switch, but some already have.


Yeah, I was referring to AMC which is still mpeg-2. For now, you see only a few current channels actually sending h.264 from the source compared to mpeg-2. It will slowly change over time but I don't think it will be happening that quickly. I can't imagine any new channels using mpeg-2 however.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

txporter said:


> Not sure if aadam101 uses Crime Warner Cable or not, but my feed for FX, AMC, SyFy and other cable SD channels is breadboxed and low bitrate. Horrid indeed.


I actually have Verizon FIOS. It's a shame that AMC has such great shows and then sends out such a poor quality feed. Walking Dead is especially bad because there are many night time scenes with lots of movement. I have to resort to getting the episodes via bittorrent just so I can get a high quality copy. Then the networks wonder why people steal........


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## Mr. E (May 18, 2008)

They'd better not leave the Series 3 and HD behind in this update. We know those boxes are fully capable of decoding h.264 because of their YouTube support. There will be a LOT of people getting their torches and pitchforks out if they start losing channels for no reason other than marketing.


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## shamilian (Mar 27, 2003)

Mr. E said:


> They'd better not leave the Series 3 and HD behind in this update. We know those boxes are fully capable of decoding h.264 because of their YouTube support. There will be a LOT of people getting their torches and pitchforks out if they start losing channels for no reason other than marketing.


I don't think they care about supporting old hardware. Lifetime support is up to them to define when it comes to upgrading the OS/Applications....

From Twitter...

@tivodesign will my TiVo Series3 HD ever get any update love?

@sudrin I do not expect any significant updates to Series3/HD.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

IIRC, We know that the S3 and TivoHD can _handle_ H.264. Some users push it to their Tivos with pyTivo.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what happens.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

So no one ever came forward that had the Baseball package with those MPEG4 channels?


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

If someone wants to pay for it, I'll add it and test.  I don't watch baseball, so it is somewhat moot for me.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Hopefully some more channels show up with MPEG4 soon.

EDIT: I mean H.264. I'll get it right one day.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

All this reminds me how much I miss the DSLR boards. Great Fios resource. Hope they're back up soon.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Hasn't it been two weeks now?

At AVS someone mentioned that one of the VHOs got some new international channels that use H.264. So hopefully things start speeding up.


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## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

Mr. E said:


> They'd better not leave the Series 3 and HD behind in this update. We know those boxes are fully capable of decoding h.264 because of their YouTube support. There will be a LOT of people getting their torches and pitchforks out if they start losing channels for no reason other than marketing.


I am not sure that I would say that Series3 and TivoHD are fully capable. TivoHD seemed to be better at decoding various resolution/framerates of H.264 files than Series3 (from what I have gathered working with moyekj on some kmttg profiles). I have found that my Premiere is somewhat better at H.264 playback than my TivoHDs. Most everything IS watchable on my TivoHDs but I have had some audio sync issues on it that I never experience on my Premieres and the Premiere handles 23.976fps video better.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

I'm assuming that people with Fios and Tivo will not be able to see the H.264 channels until the new software update. I have Cox in Phoenix and am unable to see the H.264 channels on Tivo. I had the same cablecard in an HD HomeRun Prime and was able to see the channels. I'm hoping to get the spring update sooner than later.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

here is what was posted at AVS about the five new HD international channels using MPEG4 on VHO 08.



jeepmatt said:


> For the goodness of this forum (since DSL Reports is still down!!) - I did an online 1-day subscription to the Spanish package so I could check these out. Still no guide data - but was able to garner this much:
> 
> 1516 - still not sure
> 1670 - Ultra Fiesta
> ...


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## shamilian (Mar 27, 2003)

I tweeted Margret on May 1.... 

@tivodesign Will mpeg4 (H.264) over cable work with Premiere and TivoHD?
Expand

@shamilian Which cable company?

@tivodesign Verizon FIOS - I am told they are adding new stations using H.264

@shamilian Thanks. I will check and see if we've confirmed compatibility.


no reply yet......


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I am not subscribed to any of the eight, MPEG4, HD channels that FiOS has added recently. Although if I tune to the channel, the DVR diagnostics does show the channels are encoded with H.264. But since I am not subscribed I will not get a picture. So I have no way to test my premieres to see if they will tune the channels in without issue.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

A guy on DSLReports says they're working on his Premiere. Other guy says not on S3.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r27120208-MPEG-4-comes-to-Fios


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> A guy on DSLReports says they're working on his Premiere. Other guy says not on S3.
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r27120208-MPEG-4-comes-to-Fios


This is great news then. At least if you have an S4 box. I wonder if they will send out an update for the S3 boxes so the H.264 channels can be viewed on them?


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I wonder if they will send out an update for the S3 boxes so the H.264 channels can be viewed on them?


Much as I would like my TiVo HD boxes to support H.264, adding that capability would be a very dumb business move on TiVo's part. Lots of work, no revenue (at least not from me, on lifetime). You could make a better business case if the majority of the S3 boxes were on month-to-month payments.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Much as I would like my TiVo HD boxes to support H.264, adding that capability would be a very dumb business move on TiVo's part. Lots of work, no revenue (at least not from me, on lifetime).


I doubt it would be that much work, since the New Zealand TiVos already have this capability, and AFAIK they're the same hardware as the TiVo HD.

Anyway, the benefit of doing it would be customer goodwill. Someone whose TiVo is updated to cope with h.264 is going to feel better about TiVo, and therefore be more likely to make future purchases with them, and be more likely to recommend them to others, than someone who gets left behind. It may be difficult to put a number on that, but it's real.


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## shamilian (Mar 27, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> I doubt it would be that much work, since the New Zealand TiVos already have this capability, and AFAIK they're the same hardware as the TiVo HD.
> 
> Anyway, the benefit of doing it would be customer goodwill. Someone whose TiVo is updated to cope with h.264 is going to feel better about TiVo, and therefore be more likely to make future purchases with them, and be more likely to recommend them to others, than someone who gets left behind. It may be difficult to put a number on that, but it's real.


I have to agree, most people are afraid of making a purchase if the cable company can change something and render their hardware useless...if Tivos only response is that I should spend more money to get a new Tivo and buy lifetime again, then I would have to say renting from the cable company is the only reasonable choice....(although I would buy new hardware if they let me transfer my lifetime service)


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Anyway, the benefit of doing it would be customer goodwill.


Ha. Most companies forgot about the concept of "goodwill" many decades ago.

I think one of the reasons Apple is so successful is that they have created the perception of goodwill around their products. E.g. there are stories of computers and iPods that are past their warranty period that get quickly replaced by the "geniuses" when there are problems. OTOH there are other stories of Apple sticking their head in the ground (e.g. when confronted with bad NVidia GPUs). So perhaps the lesson is that *even a little bit of goodwill goes a long way, because it's so rare these days.*


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Not the company, but the shareholders. It is hard to make a stock price impact from unvalued "goodwill". If they can make a business case for it- lost customers vs continued revenue vs future revenue, then it will happen.

It is easy for apple to give the perception of goodwill as so many are paying much above cost for their products. With that much headroom, they can replace items without affecting the bottom line. While TiVo has cash in the bank, their operating margins are thin to non-existent, so I would think a business case is a necessity. If they already do this in another market, that hopefully makes the case easier to support.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Ha. Most companies forgot about the concept of "goodwill" many decades ago.
> 
> I think one of the reasons Apple is so successful is that they have created the perception of goodwill around their products. E.g. there are stories of computers and iPods that are past their warranty period that get quickly replaced by the "geniuses" when there are problems. OTOH there are other stories of Apple sticking their head in the ground (e.g. when confronted with bad NVidia GPUs). So perhaps the lesson is that *even a little bit of goodwill goes a long way, because it's so rare these days.*


That is because they over price their products so there is tons of profit margin built in to allow them to do that.
Of course every company probably wishes they could do the same thing.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> This is great news then. At least if you have an S4 box. I wonder if they will send out an update for the S3 boxes so the H.264 channels can be viewed on them?


IMO, the precedent is there. They added support for OTA digital boxes to the Series 2 line in 2008 or 2009, I think after some demand or cajolling.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

jrtroo said:


> Not the company, but the shareholders. It is hard to make a stock price impact from unvalued "goodwill". If they can make a business case for it- lost customers vs continued revenue vs future revenue, then it will happen.
> 
> It is easy for apple to give the perception of goodwill as so many are paying much above cost for their products. With that much headroom, they can replace items without affecting the bottom line. While TiVo has cash in the bank, their operating margins are thin to non-existent, so I would think a business case is a necessity. If they already do this in another market, that hopefully makes the case easier to support.


Not just "goodwill". The service fee customers are paying is suppose to include software upgrades. Are customers asking for "goodwill" or are we asking to get what we're paying for?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Yeah, but how many people are actively paying for S3 software support, which is to say how many S3 owners are still without lifetime service? It's sad to say, but if an exec at TiVo has made the decision to terminate all S3 development (which seems to be the case), then getting him to change his mind is going to be an uphill battle. This is doubly so since we (S3 TiVo owners) do not have direct access to him. This fact is one of the many major drawbacks to large, publicly held corporations.

For me personally, it is not a matter of great concern. It is unlikely Time Warner will implement any h.264 services. There is no need for them to do so, and doing so would be expensive. If they do deploy h.264 widely, then I will either dump them, or the TiVos, or both. For me, this would possibly mean terminating CATV service altogether, since a DVR that complies with the CCI byte is of virtually no use to me. The one possible escape route would be switching from TWC to Grande, presuming they do not switch to h.264. As I said, however, the likelihood that TWC will switch to h.264 seems small, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

classicsat said:


> IMO, the precedent is there. They added support for OTA digital boxes to the Series 2 line in 2008 or 2009, I think after some demand or cajolling.


True, but that was a much broader impact than h.264. *EVERY* OTA station went digital, more or less simultaneously. Not every CATV system is going to go 100% h.264, and some no doubt "never" will have any h.264 content at all.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

classicsat said:


> IMO, the precedent is there. They added support for OTA digital boxes to the Series 2 line in 2008 or 2009, I think after some demand or cajolling.


They'll add h.264 support right after they add clear QAM support.

Just kidding. That's my feeble attempt at humor. Please don't start any clear QAM battles in this thread.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

lew said:


> Not just "goodwill". The service fee customers are paying is suppose to include software upgrades. Are customers asking for "goodwill" or are we asking to get what we're paying for?


Tivo service does not include a requirement to upgrade functionality. The terms do not imply that either. I am not making a comment on whether or not I actually think Tivo should update their functionality to handle this particular case, but you are not particularly entitled to it as a term in the service agreement. The only thing that must happen is that your box must accept an upgrade if Tivo sends it out.

https://www3.tivo.com/abouttivo/policies/tivoservice_tcs_windowpopup_ajax.html


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## shamilian (Mar 27, 2003)

socrplyr said:


> Tivo service does not include a requirement to upgrade functionality. The terms do not imply that either.
> 
> https://www3.tivo.com/abouttivo/policies/tivoservice_tcs_windowpopup_ajax.html


You have got to love this agreement, and the lawyers that wrote it....



> TiVo may at its discretion change the terms of this Agreement.
> 
> TIVO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT THE TIVO SERVICE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, ALLOW YOU TO RECORD, VIEW OR TRANSFER ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING, OR THAT USE OF THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR ERROR-FREE;
> 
> TIVO AND ITS SUPPLIERS DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED, OR STATUTORY, REGARDING THE TIVO SERVICE OR TIVO SOFTWARE, INCLUDING ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON- INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. Because some jurisdictions do not permit the exclusion of implied warranties, the last sentence of this section may not apply to you.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Lawyers have done a "good job" with the fine print. Assuming the "fine print" is enforceable no one should buy any service from any vendor.

S3 units already support h.264 files when pushed. I understand they support h.264 files in New Zealand. Expecting a unit will continue to work, subject to any hardware limitations, as cable systems make changes isn't an unreasonable request. Isn't really asking for any favors. Not really even asking for goodwill. Just asking for what was implicitly promised.

The question should be if tivo can make the necessary software changes with a reasonable amount of effort. Not if tivo's lawyers think they can get away with not continuing to support (via necessary software updates) existing customers.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

The fine print allows them to make either decision. If is is profitable to them, they will do it. I would think it would happen even if marginal/break even, but at this point we have to wait and see.


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## knarf829 (Jun 10, 2007)

shamilian said:


> I tweeted Margret on May 1....
> 
> @tivodesign Will mpeg4 (H.264) over cable work with Premiere and TivoHD?
> Expand
> ...


I'm guessing you're still without a response on this. Am I wrong?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I heard it works on the Premiere but not the S3 boxes. On FiOS.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Hmmm. Just as I'm about to re-up with FIOS ....

I don't care about the baseball channels, but one of the dslreports threads said that the premium movie channels will be a likely place for H.264 next because they come to VZ as H.264 and premium channels will impact fewer customers on older non-compatible set tops of Verizon's (6xxx series).

I've got lifetime HDs and FIOS wants a two year commitment and they may not play well together soon....

If it takes any effort at all, I would bet against Tivo upgrading HDs.


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## opieant (Dec 7, 2006)

I called TiVo today to ask about this issue and was told that MPEG-4 (H.264) support will not be coming to TiVo HD units. They offered to sell me a Premiere to add support for those channels and I declined. The support rep didn't seem interested in the TiVo HD hardware's potential to support it, and the rep was just relaying information someone else provided to them anyway. Hopefully this is just their current position on this issue, not their final decision. Certainly if any existing channels switch over to H.264 they will be getting a lot more calls about this.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tlc said:


> Hmmm. Just as I'm about to re-up with FIOS ....
> 
> I don't care about the baseball channels, but one of the dslreports threads said that the premium movie channels will be a likely place for H.264 next because they come to VZ as H.264 and premium channels will impact fewer customers on older non-compatible set tops of Verizon's (6xxx series).
> 
> ...


On DSL Reports is was reported that FiOS has no plans to convert any existing channels to H.264 this year or next. Supposedly they discussed doing it but ultimately decided against it.

Whether that is true or not I don't know. But the eight HD, H.264 channels they added this Spring were all new channels. Three for the baseball package and five for the Spanish package.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

Why wont tivo release a soft wear update for the tivo hds anymore? tivo hd does have a h.264 decoder in it so it should work. i feel like my tivo hd is being abandoned by tivo.



opieant said:


> I called TiVo today to ask about this issue and was told that MPEG-4 (H.264) support will not be coming to TiVo HD units. They offered to sell me a Premiere to add support for those channels and I declined. The support rep didn't seem interested in the TiVo HD hardware's potential to support it, and the rep was just relaying information someone else provided to them anyway. Hopefully this is just their current position on this issue, not their final decision. Certainly if any existing channels switch over to H.264 they will be getting a lot more calls about this.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

tootal2 said:


> Why wont tivo release a soft wear update for the tivo hds anymore? tivo hd does have a h.264 decoder in it so it should work. i feel like my tivo hd is being abandoned by tivo.


I don't know. I think TiVo will cave if/when H.264 becomes widespread and they start getting flooded with calls.

If TiVo wants to force people to upgrade, then the least they could do is allow a TSN swap for monthly subscribers, or a $199 lifetime service transfer.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Update on TiVo/fios/mpeg4

Hbo and Cinemax went mpeg4 on fios

If I tuned to these, I got a cable card diag screen

I called fios, he spent 40 minutes manually updating my cable cards on all 3 tivos. One premiere and 2 TiVo HDs. They all work now!!!

FYI

Fios/vh06 Boston


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

philhu said:


> Update on TiVo/fios/mpeg4
> 
> Hbo and Cinemax went mpeg4 on fios
> 
> ...


I could be wrong but I don't think those channels went mpeg4. I think they just instituted the copy once flag and required the cable cards to be paired directly to the device that they're in.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

You might be right

That would explain why the tivohd units are working
Too

Ill try some copy transfers tomorrow to see
If it got turned on


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

They just enabled the copy protection. I wish they would convert all the premium channels to MPEG4. That would free up alot of space to add more HD channels.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Yes except until they fix their qam mapping, promised almost 2 yrs ago, they can't add more than a handful


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

So, to reopen this thread

Did anyone with a tivohd see any problems?
Has FIOS made more channels H.264?
Did anyone scream at TIVO about this? I read somewhere that people were given very good prices on Premier units when they complained that they lost channels.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

There have been a few new H.264 channels added, notably BeIN Sport, on channel 598, which is available without a premium package (you might need Ultimate, though; I'm not sure). None of the existing channels have been converted, AFAIK. They announced a group as transitioning back in April, but then they postponed it, with no new date.

The H.264 channels still don't work on Series 3's (including HD's).


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

wmcbrine said:


> There have been a few new H.264 channels added, notably BeIN Sport, on channel 598, which is available without a premium package (you might need Ultimate, though; I'm not sure). None of the existing channels have been converted, AFAIK. They announced a group as transitioning back in April, but then they postponed it, with no new date.
> 
> The H.264 channels still don't work on Series 3's (including HD's).


Wow. It sure seems that Tivo missed a great opportunity to add H.264 support for Series 3 units when they sent out 11.0m to fix the cookie problem.

They could have fixed all the inconsistencies in the UI too, like 'Now Playing' nomenclature, etc.

But we all know that tivo isn't really in it to help customers


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

philhu said:


> Wow. It sure seems that Tivo missed a great opportunity to add H.264 support for Series 3 units when they sent out 11.0m to fix the cookie problem.
> 
> .................


Why would they do that? There needs to be a reason to upgrade to the newer boxes.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

philhu said:


> Wow. It sure seems that Tivo missed a great opportunity to add H.264 support for Series 3 units when they sent out 11.0m to fix the cookie problem.
> 
> They could have fixed all the inconsistencies in the UI too, like 'Now Playing' nomenclature, etc.
> 
> But we all know that tivo isn't really in it to help customers


Many of the S3's with lifetime subscriptions are so old that they can't be counted as subscriptions anymore and more and more are rolling off every day. There probably aren't enough monthly S3 subscriptions to make this worthwhile.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

philhu said:


> Wow. It sure seems that Tivo missed a great opportunity to add H.264 support for Series 3 units when they sent out 11.0m to fix the cookie problem.
> 
> They could have fixed all the inconsistencies in the UI too, like 'Now Playing' nomenclature, etc.
> 
> But we all know that tivo isn't really in it to help customers


They are not going to add any more features to the S3 platform... EVER! The only reason they even released this version is because a time bomb bug broke something that had to be fixed. The S3 platform is dead. If you want new features you'll have to buy a new box.

And the same will be true of the Premiere units eventually too. At some point TiVo will EOL the Premiere as a means of enticing people to buy new Series5 boxes. That's just how their business works.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Actually I can't comment on whether 11.0m supports H.264, although I'll be surprised if it does. I'm still on 11.0k, as I think are most Series 3's.

I'm expecting just the cookie fix in 11.0m (I think this has already been confirmed to be there), but I'll look for other changes when I get it.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> They are not going to add any more features to the S3 platform... EVER! The only reason they even released this version is because a time bomb bug broke something that had to be fixed. The S3 platform is dead. If you want new features you'll have to buy a new box.
> 
> And the same will be true of the Premiere units eventually too. At some point TiVo will EOL the Premiere as a means of enticing people to buy new Series5 boxes. That's just how their business works.


I don't think any good co would take that view, you would have natural limits on what the hardware could do, but you should never have a loss of functionality that software could fix, if I remember TiVo fixed the DST time problem with the Series 1 TiVos, and both Series 1 and Series 2 TiVos can still work, just not in HD, I think TiVo has done a good job with what they had to work with.

I worked for a co that put new products all the time, not to make their old products obsolete but to give customers more functionality as better hardware components at lower prices came on the market. We supported out products for at least 10 years.

in 1996 TiVo could have never made a TiVo that would do HD when it came out in what 2004 or 2005 there were no low priced components to do it with. The first drives (I think)were 15Gb to keep the price reasonable.
Every co must balance functionality with price, having great TiVo type functionality costing $30,000 would be of no value for the retail market.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The only two bugs TiVo has ever updated in obsolete hardware is the DST issue and now the TiVoToGo cookie issue. Both are show stopper bugs that completely broke core functionality. The S3 was never sold with the promise of supporting H.264, so this isn't a bug it's a limitation of an obsolete platform. TiVo has no business incentive to add support now. Especially when they're about to release another new platform making the S3 two generations old.

If they release another software update for the S3 or anything other then the cookie fixed I will be truly shocked.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> The only two bugs TiVo has ever updated in obsolete hardware is the DST issue and now the TiVoToGo cookie issue. Both are show stopper bugs that completely broke core functionality. The S3 was never sold with the promise of supporting H.264, so this isn't a bug it's a limitation of an obsolete platform. TiVo has no business incentive to add support now. Especially when they're about to release another new platform making the S3 two generations old.
> 
> If they release another software update for the S3 or anything other then the cookie fixed I will be truly shocked.


Will the hardware of the TiVo-HD support H.264 with ease if only TiVo would do some software work ?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

lessd said:


> Will the hardware of the TiVo-HD support H.264 with ease if only TiVo would do some software work ?


It does it _now_, in New Zealand. And it does it here, but only in the context of pushed files (TiVoCasts, etc.), or HME streams (in both cases using MP4 containers rather than transport streams).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yes the hardware supports H.264. In fact the same basic hardware was used in the Aus/NZ units and they actually support H.264 channels. So this is purely a business thing. They have not sold a new S3 unit in over 3 years, they have not released a software update for it in over 2. The platform is obsolete. The chance of them investing anything in upgrading the S3 software at this point, even if it's not that much work, is slim to none. They have no incentive to do it. Proliferation of H.264 is not very wide spread anyway and for those that need it they have a platform that supports it. Investing money into the S3 right now makes no financial sense to them. Most, if not all, of the lifetime S3 units have long since been written off the books and are actually costing them money now. And I doubt there enough monthly units out there to finance an upgrade.

The platform is dead. If you want H.264 get a Premiere, or better yet wait a couple months and get a Series 5 instead.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Yes the hardware supports H.264. In fact the same basic hardware was used in the Aus/NZ units and they actually support H.264 channels. So this is purely a business thing. They have not sold a new S3 unit in over 3 years, they have not released a software update for it in over 2. The platform is obsolete. The chance of them investing anything in upgrading the S3 software at this point, even if it's not that much work, is slim to none. They have no incentive to do it. Proliferation of H.264 is not very wide spread anyway and for those that need it they have a platform that supports it. Investing money into the S3 right now makes no financial sense to them. Most, if not all, of the lifetime S3 units have long since been written off the books and are actually costing them money now. And I doubt there enough monthly units out there to finance an upgrade.
> 
> The platform is dead. If you want H.264 get a Premiere, or better yet wait a couple months and get a Series 5 instead.


And that's the truth of it!

If someone doesn't approve of TiVo's business decisions, they should start a DVR company, risk $millions of investment, and run it the way they think is "fair" to the consumer. (And say goodbye to your investment.)

No actually, I'd prefer you start a new Cable company and compete with TWC in my neighborhood!  And don't use Tuning Adapters!


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

I think it's a mistake not adding h.264 support to the current series 3 boxes. They've done it in other geographic locations, so it shouldn't be a big leap. It's just a matter of garnering good will/loyalty with your customer base. The lack of support for h.264 just makes me less likely to buy another Tivo any time soon. 

If someone doesn't approve of Tivo's business decisions, they don't need to start their own, they just need to spend their money elsewhere. 

I'll wait and see what the series 5 has to offer but I'll probably have a more cynical view of the product.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cram501 said:


> I think it's a mistake not adding h.264 support to the current series 3 boxes. They've done it in other geographic locations, so it shouldn't be a big leap. It's just a matter of garnering good will/loyalty with your customer base. The lack of support for h.264 just makes me less likely to buy another Tivo any time soon.
> 
> If someone doesn't approve of Tivo's business decisions, they don't need to start their own, they just need to spend their money elsewhere.
> 
> I'll wait and see what the series 5 has to offer but I'll probably have a more cynical view of the product.


And that's entirely your right. But I bet TiVo views customers like you as acceptable losses. The amount of resources it would require to bring H.264 support to the S3 platform, not just costs, but development resources, support resources, beta testing resources, etc... are simply not worth it. The feature would only benefit a small percentage of customers anyway, and any goodwill they may garner would likely not be worth the amount of resources it would require to deploy.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> And that's entirely your right. But I bet TiVo views customers like you as acceptable losses. The amount of resources it would require to bring H.264 support to the S3 platform, not just costs, but development resources, support resources, beta testing resources, etc... are simply not worth it. The feature would only benefit a small percentage of customers anyway, and any goodwill they may garner would likely not be worth the amount of resources it would require to deploy.


I posted in some other thread that only TiVo knows how many Series 3 units are on cable systems that are converting to MPEG 4 and because this is not happening all at once will have data on what people do (Keep their Series 3 anyway, buy a new Premiere, or drop TiVo). With those 2 pieces of data TiVo can make a reasonably well informed business decision on what to do (nothing or update the software).

My guess is they will do nothing. If the new hardware is anywhere near as good as I expect it to be living with a Series 3's limitations (no ability to stream to another DVR/Mini/Stream, no MPEG 4, only 2 tuners, limited apps, multiple cable cards for the original S3, etc.) will be unacceptable for many (most?) people.

I honestly think Series 3 units just need to get sold to someone looking for a good & cheap OTA DVR.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> And I doubt there enough monthly units out there to finance an upgrade.


Yeah but this is what is wrong with charging obsolete units $15 a month for 'service' - it's way more than the cost of providing guide data so you're essentially throwing money at Tivo for next to nothing because they won't address issues like these.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yeah but this is what is wrong with charging obsolete units $15 a month for 'service' - it's way more than the cost of providing guide data so you're essentially throwing money at Tivo for next to nothing.


No one should be paying $15/mo for a Series 3 unit, but you are correct that anyone paying monthly for older units isn't getting a very good deal. My guess is anyone paying monthly on a Series 3 or older unit could get it reduced to $6.95 by calling and asking to cancel service.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> No one should be paying $15/mo for a Series 3 unit, but you are correct that anyone paying monthly for older units isn't getting a very good deal. My guess is anyone paying monthly on a Series 3 or older unit could get it reduced to $6.95 by calling and asking to cancel service.


Or get Lifetime service for $99, that would bring up the resale price about $200 to $300 on E-Bay.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

The bottom line on all of this is brand loyalty. Tivo, and for that matter, Garmin, have this assumption that the 'next best thing' should be different in core functionality that it was before. It does become confusing to the customer when the core functionality changes.

On the Tivo, a small thing like 'Now Playing' is now 'My shows' in newer units is a change that can be confusing to people. The shows looking on a premiere at another tivo, show full hd gui when looking at another premiere, but the old SD gui when looking at a TivoHD, and lots of easy to 'fix' things like that. H.264 is a perfect example. Look how many statements are need to answer the question 'Does the TivoHD support H.264 ?' Yes, if this, yes, in hardware, no if coming in on cable, but it could be easily done, blah blah. See the confusion.

Garmin adds a feature, example, dashboards. And one generation later, takes it away, because they had a better idea.

The basic gui should be consistent. The company should give a customer an easy way to coexist and also to upgrade units. Tivo doesnt allow xfer of lifetime, oreven a good way to move all your programs off your tivoHD to a premiere. That in itself, is keeping customers off of new units

Little things they've tried, like moving season passes on their web site, doesnt work well, and has never been fixed. 

Fixing these loose thread items, as I call them, really does pay back in the long run, with customer loyalty.

The bottom line, to customers that arent very tech savvy, is a hodgepodge of products that kind of loosley work together, but not well.

Whether it really is true, or just a perception, to the non-tech person, perception is reality.

My $0.02


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Moving season passes online worked well for me when transferring them to my Elites. Or when transferring them between Elites.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

philhu said:


> The bottom line on all of this is brand loyalty. Tivo, and for that matter, Garmin, have this assumption that the 'next best thing' should be different in core functionality that it was before. It does become confusing to the customer when the core functionality changes.
> 
> On the Tivo, a small thing like 'Now Playing' is now 'My shows' in newer units is a change that can be confusing to people. The shows looking on a premiere at another tivo, show full hd gui when looking at another premiere, but the old SD gui when looking at a TivoHD, and lots of easy to 'fix' things like that. H.264 is a perfect example. Look how many statements are need to answer the question 'Does the TivoHD support H.264 ?' Yes, if this, yes, in hardware, no if coming in on cable, but it could be easily done, blah blah. See the confusion.
> 
> ...


Going forward they'll likely keep better continuity between the S4 and S5. Since they'll run the same basic software. Although eventually I expect they will still obsolete the S4 and start making any new features exclusive to the S5. As I said before that's simply how TiVo's business model is structured. They need customers to upgrade every 3-5 years.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

While still extracting monthly money from those who don't upgrade, and giving them little to nothing in return.

I get the model and agree that people paying monthly on old boxes are making a dubious decision, but it's not right that their money is just taken for granted.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> While still extracting monthly money from those who don't upgrade, and giving them little to nothing in return.
> 
> I get the model and agree that people paying monthly on old boxes are making a dubious decision, but it's not right that their money is just taken for granted.


I don't know if TiVo takes them for granted but this is the basic model being used by lots of companies the most notably being cell phone and cable/satellite providers. With cell phone's they hide the cost of phones in the subscription price and never lower it and with cable/satellite they change you rental fees forever and/or build the cost of hardware into subscription costs.

My take on this is that many (most?) consumers don't want to pay for hardware upfront and/or don't want the risk of ownership. Companies understand this and make lots of money by offering monthly payments. One of my friends told me they found out a few years back that there elderly Aunt who had died was still paying a rental fee to the telephone company for her phone and had been paying it on the same phone for over 30 years. Talk about being ripped off.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> I don't know if TiVo takes them for granted but this is the basic model being used by lots of companies the most notably being cell phone and cable/satellite providers. With cell phone's they hide the cost of phones in the subscription price and never lower it and with cable/satellite they change you rental fees forever and/or build the cost of hardware into subscription costs.
> 
> My take on this is that many (most?) consumers don't want to pay for hardware upfront and/or don't want the risk of ownership. Companies understand this and make lots of money by offering monthly payments. One of my friends told me they found out a few years back that there elderly Aunt who had died was still paying a rental fee to the telephone company for her phone and had been paying it on the same phone for over 30 years. Talk about being ripped off.


Only ripped off if she did not know about it. If she read her bill, like any consumer should, she did know about the fee. And just decided to continue paying the fee.

The same goes for the inside wire maintenance fee. My parents are near their 80's but any internal issue with the phone lines and my dad could easily fix it. But they still pay the inside wire maintenance fee because they want to.

And they pay a monthly remote fee to Comcast even though they can use their Harmony remote. And they pay a monthly fee for the Comcast TV guide, even though it's not needed to find out what's on. And they pay over $70 a month for just phone service from Verizon, when they could pay less than half that to Comcast for phone service through them.

They pay those fees because they made the decisions to do so.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> Only ripped off if she did not know about it.


I don't have enough details to know what she knew/understood, but I still believe you can be ripped off even if you agree to it or know about it.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> Only ripped off if she did not know about it. If she read her bill, like any consumer should, she did know about the fee. And just decided to continue paying the fee.
> 
> The same goes for the inside wire maintenance fee. My parents are near their 80's but any internal issue with the phone lines and my dad could easily fix it. But they still pay the inside wire maintenance fee because they want to.
> 
> ...


I help an elderly aunt that lived about 2.5 hours away, I paid all her bills and I paid for complete phone service inc the phone itself, when she broke the phone (three or four time a year) and or the phone wire I could have fixed it myself with a 5 hour road trip, but the phone co did it for me, well worth the extra I paid the phone co.
Each case is different, some people are taken by knowing paying for something they don't need, some need the service, some don't know they are even paying for the service.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lessd said:


> I help an elderly aunt that lived about 2.5 hours away, I paid all her bills and I paid for complete phone service inc the phone itself, when she broke the phone (three or four time a year) and or the phone wire I could have fixed it myself with a 5 hour road trip, but the phone co did it for me, well worth the extra I paid the phone co.
> Each case is different, some people are taken by knowing paying for something they don't need, some need the service, some don't know they are even paying for the service.


But who decides something a person doesn't need? Only the individual can make that decision. I certainly don't want someone else deciding what I don't need.


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