# Series 1 owners to get no March 11 DST support



## fluke

I have a Tivo Series 1 made my Phillips that came with Tivo version 2.5 and later updated to Tivo version 3.0. I have helped blessed additional drive space on several Tivos and know from looking at the files that Tivo uses the same standard timezone files that every other linux distribution uses. When it dials up for updated guide information, it syncs it's clock using a standard method known as NTP (Network Time Protocol) which transmits the time in GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). With NTP, it is up to the software getting the time to translate the GMT time to the correct local time. That means that NTP by itself will never correct for changes in DST (Daylist Saving Time) as will occur in the US on March 11.

After talking to Tivo support, I got the following answers about when/if the time zone files will ever be updated:

"It will correct the time automatically when it gets guide information."

- Wrong! Tivo update time using NTP which is given in GMT. Changes in local time offsets require changing the zone files on the tivo itself.


"Just go through guided setup if the Tivo to correct the daylight savings time setting"

- Wrong! Going through the guided setup will not update the local zone files. It might be possible to use guided setup to set the Tivo incorrectly to a time zone that is one hour ahead but such a work-around requires remembering to go through the guided setup *FOUR* times a year for something that the Tivo should be doing itself.


"You need to call Phillips for support"

- Wrong! The user manual that comes with the Series 1 clearly states that Phillips only provided support for the *hardware* and the software support is Tivo's responsiblity. The battery which helps the tivo keep track of time even when it is unplugged is still working and there are no other indications of hardware issues. Updates to the time zone files for supporting the Energy Act of 2005 is a *software* issue.


"How long have you had that Tivo? We do not support it anymore -- it is not going to happen."

- Bad answer! There is nothing in the user manual about when support ends. There has been information from Tivo that with the "lifetime" subscription there will be free updates including fixes. It has been explained that "lifetime" is defined to be while the unit is still functioning. It appears that Tivo does not actually support the tivo software during the full lifetime of the unit. Given this premature dropping of support with Tivo products, I can no longer advocate users to choose Tivo over other DVR solutions.


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## mattack

You're attempting to state as a fact that there will be no update -- but one of the other threads had a Tivo employee say that they WERE thinking of series 1 users. They weren't promising anything (essentially no company ever does).. but they were obviously aware of the issue.


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## gastrof

I'll add my voice to mattack's.

TiVo Jerry said he'd be getting back to us about this, and I noted he did mention Series 1 machines, SUBBED and UNSUBBED. Didn't make any promises, but said those are being kept in mind.

Here's a link to the thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=339075

But Jerry's comment was as follows-
*"Our engineering teams have been discussing and working on the new DST schedule since it was announced early last year. I am still working on understanding every single support aspect for the various platforms (S1 {subbed and unsubbed}, S2, S3, DTV {S1, S2}) and countries (Canadian customers with S2 or DTV units, BSkyB & TGC), as well as how this will be delivered and communicated. I will have to wait until I have all of those details fully understood before posting an official statement publicly, but will make sure that I post those details in entirety within this thread. It is my personal goal to have that information available before the end of the month, if not sooner.

"Please continue discussing and theorizing, as there may always be a scenario I haven't taken into consideration. I'm aiming to have a single posting with all appropriate information, but it may be necessary to also post a new thread so the information will be easy to find in the first post without searching through the whole discussion. "*


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## Phantom Gremlin

If I were paying TiVo monthly for service on an S1, I'd be very very P*SSED if the DST transition didn't work smoothly.

The fact that it's even being "discussed" instead of just being done is astonishing to me.


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## TiVoStephen

fluke, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about how the recording engine works. It works completely off GMT. All guide data is provided to us in GMT. As you say, NTP updates the correct GMT time.

So, even if TiVo Inc. did absolutely nothing for Series1 users, 100% of your Season Pass and one-time recordings would still work perfectly, since the GMT schedule is not affected by local DST at all. Your local offset ONLY applies for display issues (that is, what time is shown in the guide).

If we did nothing, you'd see the wrong time listed in the guide, but recordings would still work. The correct time GMT is always provided when your unit makes a connection.

So, the first answer given to you by support is correct. (I'm not happy with any of their other answers, however; please provide me with any agent names who gave you the other answers so we can make sure they're educated on this subject.)

As Jerry and Pony have already said, we don't plan on doing nothing. Details are forthcoming.

Many of us TiVo employees are Series1 users. We're not going to leave you high and dry.

I've been working here eight years. In eight years, while many of our competitors have sold DVRs that have had major DST issues, I've never seen any real problems with TiVo's software. (We did have a bug with repeating manual recordings back in 2000, but it was quickly corrected.)


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## Krosis

I wish people would write their congressman about all these DST issues. They need to know that their fiddling with the time has consequences. Listening to their speeches it sounds like it's a null effect proposition.


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## gworkman

Krosis said:


> I wish people would write their congressman about all these DST issues. They need to know that their fiddling with the time has consequences. Listening to their speeches it sounds like it's a null effect proposition.


Not an issue here....No DST. :up:


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## mitkraft

Krosis said:


> I wish people would write their congressman about all these DST issues. They need to know that their fiddling with the time has consequences. Listening to their speeches it sounds like it's a null effect proposition.


Writing them wouldn't do any good. Since they are all pretty much 12'oclock flashers they can't grasp the ramifications (if you don't know what that is check this out: 



)


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## ZeoTiVo

mitkraft said:


> Writing them wouldn't do any good. Since they are all pretty much 12'oclock flashers they can't grasp the ramifications (if you don't know what that is check this out:
> 
> 
> 
> )


I always wanted to sell a little add on LCD thing that would falsh 12:00 on the front of the TiVo - but then I have a warped sense of humor.


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## fluke

TiVoStephen said:


> fluke, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about how the recording engine works. It works completely off GMT. All guide data is provided to us in GMT. As you say, NTP updates the correct GMT time.
> 
> So, even if TiVo Inc. did absolutely nothing for Series1 users, 100% of your Season Pass and one-time recordings would still work perfectly, since the GMT schedule is not affected by local DST at all. Your local offset ONLY applies for display issues (that is, what time is shown in the guide).


Ok. So, just to confirm I understand you correctly... I have gotten sick of Tivo recording the Daily Show with John S. multiple times a day so I have manual recordings set up for it (and other similar situations). Your saying the time is for display issues only and will not have any impact on my non-guide selected manual recording?



TiVoStephen said:


> So, the first answer given to you by support is correct. (I'm not happy with any of their other answers, however; please provide me with any agent names who gave you the other answers so we can make sure they're educated on this subject.)


I didn't go into this taking down names. When I hear from phone support that "I have checked with my supervisor and WE DO NOT SUPPORT PHILLIPS SERIES 1 AT ALL" then I take that at face value. The claim that Phillips supports *EVERY* aspect of the Series 1 was stated by more than one phone support person as well. This is not a misunderstanding or an education issue for an individual Tivo support person, this is that Series 1 people do not get support or need to go through hoops for support.

Even if only non-guide manual recordings are effected, Tivo is still pushing the issue of support of the software to me by claiming that Phillips is responsible for something they clearly are not. I can either change the manual recordings four times a year or try to update the time zone files myself.

Even if Tivo decides to provide an update for their Tivo v3.x software for DST, the message is still clear that software support is still being provided ad-hoc at Tivo discretion. There is no commitment to Series 1 and Tivo was use artifical restrictions, such as refusing to provide Now Showing folder groupings, to try to help compete with it own abandoned legacy product.

The message sent out to early adopters of Tivo was that Tivo would continue to improve with "free updates" over the "lifetime" of the product. There where even claims that Series 2 would not stop new features coming to Series 1 but features requiring the Series 2 hardware would but the only things never to be provided on the Series 1. What **hardware** issues are there in providing DST updates or Now Showing grouping folders to the Series 1?

The big difference between Tivo and MythTv is **support**. Once responsiblity for support is pushed out to the customer, MythTv clearly becomes a preferable system. Paying $400 for a three year *commitment* is only reasonable if the commitment is clearly in both directions. If Tivo can arbitrarily decide to stop or only provide ad-hoc support at any time then the 3 year commitment is only the customer being commited to a company that has no true commitment back. Having rights to guide data for unsupported software is like being able to have batteries with nothing to put them in.


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## jmoak

Anyone know what company runs tivo's support phone bank? It'd be nice to know, just for future reference.

... and if one day I call in for support just to be told, _"WE DO NOT SUPPORT PHILLIPS SERIES 1 AT ALL"_ (I still use two daily) you bet your boots I'll be taking down names.

Knowing what I do about tivo, there's no way in god's green earth that I'd take that at face value. Drop support for a platform that's still generating revenue??? No freakin' way!


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## Opusnbill7

TiVoStephen said:


> fluke, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about how the recording engine works. It works completely off GMT. All guide data is provided to us in GMT. As you say, NTP updates the correct GMT time.
> 
> So, even if TiVo Inc. did absolutely nothing for Series1 users, 100% of your Season Pass and one-time recordings would still work perfectly, since the GMT schedule is not affected by local DST at all. Your local offset ONLY applies for display issues (that is, what time is shown in the guide).
> 
> If we did nothing, you'd see the wrong time listed in the guide, but recordings would still work. The correct time GMT is always provided when your unit makes a connection.
> 
> So, the first answer given to you by support is correct. (I'm not happy with any of their other answers, however; please provide me with any agent names who gave you the other answers so we can make sure they're educated on this subject.)
> 
> As Jerry and Pony have already said, we don't plan on doing nothing. Details are forthcoming.
> 
> Many of us TiVo employees are Series1 users. We're not going to leave you high and dry.
> 
> I've been working here eight years. In eight years, while many of our competitors have sold DVRs that have had major DST issues, I've never seen any real problems with TiVo's software. (We did have a bug with repeating manual recordings back in 2000, but it was quickly corrected.)


So....since we're now about a week away from the time change, what's going to happen with the S1 users that aren't going to be left "high and dry"? Just getting close to the deadline so I think most of us are kind of curious...


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## gastrof

I'm getting sort of antzy too. 

If the clock isn't going to change (and so is WRONG on the morning of the 12th), I'm not even sure how to schedule my manual recording start and stop times. Move everything back an hour until we get to the former date for the clock changing? Then have to move them forward again when the machine's clock starts showing the correct time again (I assume)?


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## lessd

gastrof said:


> I'm getting sort of antzy too.
> 
> If the clock isn't going to change (and so is WRONG on the morning of the 12th), I'm not even sure how to schedule my manual recording start and stop times. Move everything back an hour until we get to the former date for the clock changing? Then have to move them forward again when the machine's clock starts showing the correct time again (I assume)?


If I read this correctly all times are GMT inside the TiVo, on March 12 a program that would start at 9PM DST would show up as starting at 8PM on your TiVo guide data so do not use any outside guide source for your TV program times, just use the TiVo guide times which may be off an hour from the outside guides but if you set your manual recordings for the TiVo guide time you will have no problem with any Series 1 or 2 ( Series 3 has the problem fixed already) recordings. This time thing should not be any problem if TiVo recorded the programs you want but showing the start of the program as EST not DST.

So if you had a Humax DVD TiVo and a program started at 9PM DST on March 12th at 9PM, on your wall clock (that you moved ahead 1 hour before you went to sleep the night before) the recording would start 9PM; on your Humax the recording would start when the Humax clock read 8PM.


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## wolflord11

If I was a Series 1 Owner and paying Monthly, I would be more than a little Pi**ed at the lack of support!

If Tivo cannot support Series 1 Owners, either they need to stop charging them for service, or perhaps offer a FREE upgrade to a later unit.

Just my 2 cents.


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## jsmeeker

I already have guide data for shows that are after the DST start. Shows that normally start at 7:00 say they will record at 6:00 PM. Of course, the TiVo will think it's 6:00 PM when it's really 7:00 PM. Everything will record just fine as long as you have season passes or are selecting programs out of the guide.

No worries.


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## ah30k

wolflord11 said:


> If I was a Series 1 Owner and paying Monthly...


Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.


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## Bsteenson

ah30k said:


> Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.


I have two Series 1's, both with lifetime service. As long as they are operating, my three Series 2 units get cheaper multiple-unit service fees. Why on earth would I ever consider stopping using the Series 1's as long as they work?

BS


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## lessd

ah30k said:


> Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.


And if they are why did they not go to a Series 2 when it was FREE !!!, same monthly fee (so you sign up for a year on a new unit).


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## wolflord11

Many people have the Series 1's still, and are on Monthly Service.

You can pick them up cheap, and they make great add ons to your Tivo Collection.


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## ESPalmer

Hey now, stop knocking the S1 folks 
I have to agree that yes it does make me nervous when we are seemingly cast to the wind. Was it not us that helped Tivo in the beginning? If it is this easy for the powers that be to abandon us, who will speak up when they come for you Series 2 owners. They could just say scr#w you and stop support to all but DTV DVR's?

Food for thought........


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## Rucker

TiVoStephen said:


> So, even if TiVo Inc. did absolutely nothing for Series1 users, 100% of your Season Pass and one-time recordings would still work perfectly, since the GMT schedule is not affected by local DST at all. Your local offset ONLY applies for display issues (that is, what time is shown in the guide).
> 
> If we did nothing, you'd see the wrong time listed in the guide, but recordings would still work. The correct time GMT is always provided when your unit makes a connection.


Uh... so new manual recordings will mysteriously know the correct gmt offset on March 11 if Tivo does nothing? I don't think so. Let's hope Tivo isn't asleep on this... they've had what, close to 2 years to figure this out?


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## murgatroyd

ah30k said:


> Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.


One of my S1 TiVos is Lifetime and the other is monthly.

Jan


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## visionary

If I read this thread, here at the end everyone is still saying how awful that Tivo isn't supporting the S1, even after the Ops guy came in and said they ARE fixing it. Daahhhh!
Guys, I think like they ARE going to support it, just a hunch based on what he said. Maybe I am overly bright. As for why haven't I got the fix yet, well, it doesn't need to go out early, and I bet they may add some other little fixes they didn't have to do but might as well now do. Maybe get rid of that TIVO PARTY INVITE on menu that they did manage to change to TIVO NOW IN HD! but it still has nothing there when selected, Just a guess. Hey Stephen, if you aren't fixing that maybe you can still add it. After all you could SELL ADS here, that ought to get your interest.


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## wolflord11

ESPalmer said:


> Hey now, stop knocking the S1 folks
> I have to agree that yes it does make me nervous when we are seemingly cast to the wind. Was it not us that helped Tivo in the beginning? If it is this easy for the powers that be to abandon us, who will speak up when they come for you Series 2 owners. They could just say scr#w you and stop support to all but DTV DVR's?
> 
> Food for thought........


I am fully supporting the plight of the Series 1 Owners, and yes, the Series 2 will be next to go......

As for the "New Series 3", yes it is great... if you have cable!!!

What exactly is Tivo trying to do? Alienate all Series 1 Owners, kick all Sat users aside? More food for thought.


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## gastrof

lessd said:


> If I read this correctly all times are GMT inside the TiVo, on March 12 a program that would start at 9PM DST would show up as starting at 8PM on your TiVo guide data so do not use any outside guide source for your TV program times, just use the TiVo guide times which may be off an hour from the outside guides but if you set your manual recordings for the TiVo guide time you will have no problem with any Series 1 or 2 ( Series 3 has the problem fixed already) recordings. This time thing should not be any problem if TiVo recorded the programs you want but showing the start of the program as EST not DST.
> 
> So if you had a Humax DVD TiVo and a program started at 9PM DST on March 12th at 9PM, on your wall clock (that you moved ahead 1 hour before you went to sleep the night before) the recording would start 9PM; on your Humax the recording would start when the Humax clock read 8PM.


You apparently missed the fact I'm talking, not about recordings made off TiVo guide data, but rather manual recordings where I have to put in the channel, length, and the start time.

If the time being displayed by the clock in the machine is off an hour, seems I'll have to make a change to all my manual recording setups. (Please also note that my machines are unsubbed...see my sig.)


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## GoHokies!

gastrof said:


> You apparently missed the fact I'm talking, not about recordings made off TiVo guide data, but rather manual recordings where I have to put in the channel, length, and the start time.
> 
> If the time being displayed by the clock in the machine is off an hour, seems I'll have to make a change to all my manual recording setups. (Please also note that my machines are unsubbed...see my sig.)


Are you really expecting to get a software update on an unsubbed machine?

Has that ever happened?

If Stephen said that they are working on it, I'm 100% certain that they actually are and will be doing everything in their power to get the update out before next weekend. No "What exactly is Tivo trying to do? Alienate all Series 1 Owners, kick all Sat users aside? More food for thought." conspiracy theories needed.

Edit: That came across a little shorter than I intended, Gastrof - I really am genuinely curious, I didn't think that unsubbed boxes called into anywhere (making it hard to get the updates). I didn't join the Tivoloution until the era of the S2.


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## TiVoDan

gastrof said:


> You apparently missed the fact I'm talking, not about recordings made off TiVo guide data, but rather manual recordings where I have to put in the channel, length, and the start time.
> 
> If the time being displayed by the clock in the machine is off an hour, seems I'll have to make a change to all my manual recording setups. (Please also note that my machines are unsubbed...see my sig.)


Manual recordings are based on local time schedules, that get offset an hour relative to GMT during DST. That means, the only way to have them correct, is for the local time to be set correctly relative to GMT on March 11, and I think tivo is obligated to assure that this occurs for subscribed series one boxes.

However this wouldn't help you, since your boxes are unsubbed. To that I say that Tivo only has an obligation to support a machine, as long as it is subbed to the Tivo service. So I suggest just adding an additional manual recording setup for the offset hour.


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## gastrof

GoHokies! said:


> Are you really expecting to get a software update on an unsubbed machine?
> 
> Has that ever happened?
> 
> If Stephen said that they are working on it, I'm 100% certain that they actually are and will be doing everything in their power to get the update out before next weekend. No "What exactly is Tivo trying to do? Alienate all Series 1 Owners, kick all Sat users aside? More food for thought." conspiracy theories needed.
> 
> Edit: That came across a little shorter than I intended, Gastrof - I really am genuinely curious, I didn't think that unsubbed boxes called into anywhere (making it hard to get the updates). I didn't join the Tivoloution until the era of the S2.


Yes, it did come across a bit short, since I said nothing about "conspiracies"

I simply said this is a mess and I'm not sure what'll happen with my machine next weekend.

Yes, the Series 1 machines DO call in, even the unsubbed ones, to get their clocks reset (to combat "drift").

If TiVo will be leaving the clocks reading the wrong time, and only the older schedule for DST settings stays in place, it's a problem.

There should be a way of manually setting the clock...


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## GoHokies!

gastrof said:


> Yes, it did come across a bit short, since I said nothing about "conspiracies"
> 
> I simply said this is a mess and I'm not sure what'll happen with my machine next weekend.
> 
> Yes, the Series 1 machines DO call in, even the unsubbed ones, to get their clocks reset (to combat "drift").
> 
> If TiVo will be leaving the clocks reading the wrong time, and only the older schedule for DST settings stays in place, it's a problem.
> 
> There should be a way of manually setting the clock...


I didn't know the unsubbed ones call in, that makes sense to keep the clock on target, so hopefully there is a mechanism for pushing an update to you folks.

The conspiracy theory comments were directed at Worlflord11, the guy I quoted. I should have used the quote tag to make that a little more clear.

I agree that it's a problem that needs to be addressed, but like I said before (and in response to the PM you sent) if Stephen says that they are working on it, then I'd bet a paycheck that they are doing their best to get it resolved before this weekend.


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## classicsat

wolflord11 said:


> What exactly is Tivo trying to do? Alienate all Series 1 Owners, kick all Sat users aside? More food for thought.


Economize. They can do that by not developing for Series 1 anymore.

Thet aren't dumping the Series 2 platform anytime soon, it has life in it yet, currently only with the DT model. And since the Series 3 and Series 3 are based on the same MIPS architecture, it is almost easy to do parallel development on all Series 2 and Series 3 in the field (in some circumstances it needs to be forked though).


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## Adam1115

Krosis said:


> I wish people would write their congressman about all these DST issues. They need to know that their fiddling with the time has consequences. Listening to their speeches it sounds like it's a null effect proposition.


+1

It isn't TIVO's fault that the time is changing. Out of the goodness of their hears they are trying to make modifications to old units to accomidate the change. But if nobody screwed with the time in the first place we wouldn't have this issue. I wonder how much energy we will really save when you factor in programmers staying late to update code, consultants driving all over town to patch systems...

Bad thing is, this time change is a one time thing. They could 'renew' it and we all have to go through this next year...


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## jsmeeker

yeah, well, writing to your congressman NOW will only result in going through this all over again.


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## VictorWI

ah30k said:


> Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.


I'm one of those S1 monthly folks. Never figured the thing would last this long.


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## boblip11

My series 1 is now monthly since I transfered its lifetime to my Series 3....the machine runs great and still is used every day. I purchased it in March of 2000.

What I find very disheartening is the slow and weak response from Tivo. Here it is 5 days before the change...and still no definitive word...

I am not sure wether I care what the answer is. I would like my machine patched...but I could handle the 1 hour display problem for 3 weeks if I had to.

But by now there should be a clear answer on the plan. I was surprised to go over to the Tivo website to find no mention of the issue on S1,S2 or S3 on the main support page. 

This slow and weak communication is just not right and not like my previous experiences with Tivo (YMMV).


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## smc

> "You need to call Phillips for support"
> 
> - Wrong! The user manual that comes with the Series 1 clearly states that Phillips only provided support for the *hardware* and the software support is Tivo's responsiblity. The battery which helps the tivo keep track of time even when it is unplugged is still working and there are no other indications of hardware issues. Updates to the time zone files for supporting the Energy Act of 2005 is a *software* issue.
> 
> "How long have you had that Tivo? We do not support it anymore -- it is not going to happen."
> 
> - Bad answer! There is nothing in the user manual about when support ends. There has been information from Tivo that with the "lifetime" subscription there will be free updates including fixes. It has been explained that "lifetime" is defined to be while the unit is still functioning. It appears that Tivo does not actually support the tivo software during the full lifetime of the unit. Given this premature dropping of support with Tivo products, I can no longer advocate users to choose Tivo over other DVR solutions.


I get the same responses whenever I call TiVo for support issues with my S1.


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## ewilts

Adam1115 said:


> It isn't TIVO's fault that the time is changing. Out of the goodness of their hears they are trying to make modifications to old units to accomidate the change. But if nobody screwed with the time in the first place we wouldn't have this issue.


TiVo knew that DST was a political decision when they started this business and gave users a local time display. Supporting local time should not be done "out of the goodness of their hearts" - it should be considered a mandatory change for those who have their Series 1 boxes under contract - either lifetime or monthly. Lifetime support goes both ways - TiVo ensured users that they would be supported for the lifetime of the boxes, not until they decided to change their minds.

If a user schedules a manual recording on an S1 on Monday at 6pm and the wrong program gets recorded, he would have a legitimate excuse to report that as a bug. Currently if I schedule a manual recording at Monday at 10pm I know I'll get The Daily Show - I have no idea what I'll get next week.

My S1 is no longer subscribed so I have no right to complain. Those users who have paid for a lifetime subscription or a monthly subscription should complain long and hard if they lose functionality.

.../Ed


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## gastrof

ewilts said:


> ...Currently if I schedule a manual recording at Monday at 10pm I know I'll get The Daily Show - I have no idea what I'll get next week...


I'm figuring to do this-

Sunday morning I force a call on both machines.

I let an hour pass after the second one is done.

I then channel surf for a minute or two, hitting the "play" button to make the current time display on the green line.

I then set up a manual recording to start in ten minutes, based on the time being displayed. I see if the machine is still basing its recordings on the time its display says it is.

I do this on both machines, just in case there's some glitch in one for some reason.

If there's need I then make any adjustments to all my "manual season passes" (*groan*), knowing I'll likely have to do it again not too far down the road, putting the times back the way they were due to the TiVo making the changes on the old DST date.

I'll then try to figure out what the dates USED to be, what they are now, try to keep this in mind from now on...

And start pricing a second Philips DVDR3455H Hard Drive/DVD recorder which allows you to set the time manually.

If I can get a second 3455 for a decent price, I'll then have to ask myself a simple question...

"With the TiVos now going wonky four times a year from now on, can I in good conscience sell them?"

I'm just hoping there's NO need to jump thru hoops like this and end up getting some other recorder. I LIKE my TiVos.


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## parzec

Perhaps Tivo should allow the transfer of a Series 1 lifetime to a series 2 or Series 3 free of charge since it appears they no longer support the Series 1 platform. It would be a win-win for everyone. Tivo wouldn't have to feel guilty for effectively breeching their lifetime contracts; they wouldn't have to pay for the support they *should* be providing; and they probbly wouldn't have to maintain as many dial-up servers. Tivo's customers would be placated by the gesture and in return would waive their right to sue Tivo for breech of contract. Is anyone listening from Tivo?


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## 8bitbarbarian

Yah  Im a happy S1 lifetime owner. Ive been following along because I do all my news gathering on repeating manual records. 3 weeks of it not working isnt the end of the world. Really my goal should be to get out on my bicycle after work instead of grazing through my news programs. 3 weeks of disruption could do me some good.

Of course if Tivo offered up some 180 hr DT Series 2 deals for the inconvience of S1 owners I might be cajoled into upgrading. I like that lifetime transfer idea.


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## jjarmoc

ah30k said:


> Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.


I have an S1 monthly.

I also have an S3 w/ 3-year commitment.


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## jjarmoc

lessd said:


> And if they are why did they not go to a Series 2 when it was FREE !!!, same monthly fee (so you sign up for a year on a new unit).


I can answer that in one character - #

Going back a while, there wasn't a way to hack the S2. My S1 had a larger drive, a turbonet card, and TivoWeb. All without paying for the 'Home Media Option'

It didn't make sense for me to upgrade at the time, but the S3 lifetime transfer deal has me kicking myself.

Ohh well, I'm still more than happy to pay tivo. It's done so much for me over the years, it's hard to be bitter.

Also, I should mention that anyone with a hacked S1 (and I suspect there are many) can patch DST on their own. See http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10877_11-6163042.html or any one of a number of other sources for info...


----------



## highwire

jjarmoc said:


> Also, I should mention that anyone with a hacked S1 (and I suspect there are many) can patch DST on their own. See http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10877_11-6163042.html or any one of a number of other sources for info...


Those instructions (and similar instructions) don't appear to work on the TiVo's, even though they are running a variant of Linux.

There's no /usr/share directory structure, nor an /etc/localtime file.


----------



## Opusnbill7

parzec said:


> Perhaps Tivo should allow the transfer of a Series 1 lifetime to a series 2 or Series 3 free of charge since it appears they no longer support the Series 1 platform. It would be a win-win for everyone. Tivo wouldn't have to feel guilty for effectively breeching their lifetime contracts; they wouldn't have to pay for the support they *should* be providing; and they probbly wouldn't have to maintain as many dial-up servers. Tivo's customers would be placated by the gesture and in return would waive their right to sue Tivo for breech of contract. Is anyone listening from Tivo?


Amen! I love my S1, but I could be persuaded to give it up and have them end support for them for a free S2 DT (with a reasonable amount of storage in it) or a MUCH CHEAPER than what has been offered up to now S3 (either box carrying on the lifetime subscription, of course). I like the idea of the S3, but $800-$1000 is ridiculous (by the time you purchased and transferred).

I hadn't considered the breach of contract aspect, since IANAL, but you may have a point. I held up my end of the contract by purchasing the lifetime subscription, and the box is still alive (thus within it's "lifetime"). They didn't sell it as "until we decide to stop supporting it"...they sold it as "lifetime of the box" (or even longer if you bought it before 2000 but that's beside the point), and while this DST problem doesn't entirely remove the Tivo functionality, it does put a damper on some of its behavior (manual recordings for example), as well as really making the guide confusing (now you have to move everything up an hour in your mind...?) Hmmm....interesting. Lets hope it doesn't get to anything like that, though, and Tivo steps up one way or the other. They have most of the time so far, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt...


----------



## Pasketti

highwire said:


> Those instructions (and similar instructions) don't appear to work on the TiVo's, even though they are running a variant of Linux.
> 
> There's no /usr/share directory structure, nor an /etc/localtime file.


Not only that, but there are no zic and zdump utilities.

I could prepare the files on my x86 Linux box and send them over, but:

I don't know if the different byte order would affect things (probably yes)

I don't know where to put them, since there is no localtime file to replace.


----------



## Pasketti

According to the thread here 
http://forums.directv.com/pe/action/forums/displaypost?postID=10209839
on DTV's website, they're rolling out fixes.


> The DirecTV/Tivo DVR software itself is downloaded via satellite, but its installation is triggered by a phone call. It's rolling out now for the R10 (v6.1a), for the Series 2 DVRs (HDVR2, etc.) and for the Series 1 DVRs (Sony SAT-T60, etc).


----------



## jsmeeker

So, TiVo made a patch for Series 1 DirecTV TiVos but not Series 1 SA TiVos?


ehhh.. whatever.. Minor issue. It will be "odd" looking for a couple of weeks. That's all.


----------



## classicsat

parzec said:


> Perhaps Tivo should allow the transfer of a Series 1 lifetime to a series 2 or Series 3 free of charge since it appears they no longer support the Series 1 platform.


IIRC They did, for a limited time, when they launched the Series 2 platform. It is not their fault you didn't take them up on that offer.

They did offer an upgrade program for Series 3, called the VIP program, although it cost $199 to trasnfer Lifetime froma Series 1 or Series 2 to it.



jjarmoc said:


> Going back a while, there wasn't a way to hack the S2. My S1 had a larger drive, a turbonet card, and TivoWeb. All without paying for the 'Home Media Option'


You hacking it is besides the point, as far as Tivo is concerned.

You chose to retain the Series 1 Lifetime rather than take up their transfer offer.


----------



## jjarmoc

highwire said:


> Those instructions (and similar instructions) don't appear to work on the TiVo's, even though they are running a variant of Linux.
> 
> There's no /usr/share directory structure, nor an /etc/localtime file.


Well, I stand corrected then. I guess this is what happens when you make assumptions, as I did.

Bummer...


----------



## jjarmoc

classicsat said:


> You hacking it is besides the point, as far as Tivo is concerned.
> 
> You chose to retain the Series 1 Lifetime rather than take up their transfer offer.


Well, I kept my series1 monthly, but that's beside the point. I didn't take up the transfer offer because the Series2 didn't offer any compelling benefits, and in fact had some detriments in my case.

I'm not really too worried about it. If they don't patch, then I'll just discontinue service on my S1 and trash it. I'm hardly using it anyhow.. the S3 gets most of my viewing time. I mostly just keep it around because it still works and makes for a nice repository of soap operas and crap for my wife that I don't want cluttering up the S3 and we don't care about having HD. I've considered cancelling it's service already, but there's not much reason too. Not having it functional would give me that reason and make me a one-subscription household. Well, at least until MRV is released for S3s....


----------



## jmoak

jjarmoc said:


> I'm not really too worried about it. If they don't patch, then I'll just discontinue service on my S1 and trash it.


Trash it?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but your un-updated series 1 tivo will still correctly record it's guide based and season pass recordings, but in the guide they will be showing the time off by an hour from march 11th through april 8th. (past the 8th, everything is correct again)

The only thing that may be hosed is the manual recordings. (which I have no need to use myself)

There'll be a few weeks where the guide will not show the correct time, but everything will still record correctly as it's system/guide time is based on GMT(UTC).

Are you wanting to trash it due to the guide data not displaying correctly for a few weeks or is it just because it didn't get a patch for the new dst dates?


Each to his own, of course, but I was just curious.


----------



## GoHokies!

jsmeeker said:


> So, TiVo made a patch for Series 1 DirecTV TiVos but not Series 1 SA TiVos?
> 
> ehhh.. whatever.. Minor issue. It will be "odd" looking for a couple of weeks. That's all.


No, it means that the DirecTV patch got finished first.

It ain't over until the fat lady sings. (but I'll be here to eat my crow on Sunday morning if y'all don't get some love)


----------



## jsmeeker

GoHokies! said:


> No, it means that the DirecTV patch got finished first.
> 
> It ain't over until the fat lady sings. (but I'll be here to eat my crow on Sunday morning if y'all don't get some love)


She's warming up her pipes. There isn't much time left! 

I'll keep the Series 1 plugged into the phone line and will check daily between now and Sunday AM.


----------



## Opusnbill7

classicsat said:


> IIRC They did, for a limited time, when they launched the Series 2 platform. It is not their fault you didn't take them up on that offer.
> 
> They did offer an upgrade program for Series 3, called the VIP program, although it cost $199 to trasnfer Lifetime froma Series 1 or Series 2 to it.
> 
> You hacking it is besides the point, as far as Tivo is concerned.
> 
> You chose to retain the Series 1 Lifetime rather than take up their transfer offer.


Actually, that's not entirely true. Some of us couldn't afford to cough up the money for a new box, even if they were going to transfer the service to a new box for free, and don't get me started on the VIP program. It was nice of them, but $800 for the box +$199 for the transfer isn't exactly "giving them away". It's a good deal, but $1000 is still a lot of money. Without giving away both the box (S2 or S3) AND the service transfer and telling me "take this or we won't support the S1 at all...sorry", they really haven't relieved themselves from being part of the "contract" between myself and them when I purchased a lifetime subscription. A good precedent for this is probably Cingular/AT&T. Back when Cingular wanted to get rid of all the old TDMA handsets, they at first were forcing people to switch, and also to buy new phones. Eventually, they were giving the new phones away to the customers just to get them off of the network. If they want the S1 lifetime owners "off of the network", make it compelling for us to do so (i.e. make it so we really have no sensible reason not to)....


----------



## BobCamp1

When they were offering the S2 switch, I had just spent a lot of money on a Series 1. I didn't have enough funds at the time to pay for a new Series 2, even with the free lifetime switch.

The S3 doesn't do anything I want it to at this time. And it's way too expensive.

It's really simple. I paid for unit lifetime guide data. The unit is still working, and the guide data is wrong. Fix it. Or get me another unit that works which also has lifetime guide data.

I think Tivo will fix it, and they even said that they would. But it always seems to take them a little too long to release updates. Unless they are fixing it like they did Indiana last year, in which case the guide data will be wrong up to the last possible second. (I think this is how it had to be for the fix that they chose, but it made a lot of people nervous)


----------



## Opusnbill7

Yeah...I agree. I think they're going to fix it. They've been very considerate of ALL of their customers so far, so I don't know why they'd change now. I hope I'm not wrong...


----------



## parzec

classicsat said:


> IIRC They did, for a limited time, when they launched the Series 2 platform. It is not their fault you didn't take them up on that offer.
> 
> ....
> 
> You chose to retain the Series 1 Lifetime rather than take up their transfer offer.


Don't assume too much or you ...... well, you know 

I did take advantage of the offer, but that doesn't prevent me from pointing out how Tivo can protect itself and do the right thing all at the same time.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

GoHokies! said:


> No, it means that the DirecTV patch got finished first.


Hey, no hurry. They have four whole days left before the problems start.

This dumb law was passed a year ago, and these wankers are just now rolling out the patches!?! Un-frickin-believable!


----------



## visionary

Hmmm... I still wonder what benefit there would be to getting this patch "early" like everyone wants it seems. Yep, I'm going to start MY DAYLIGHT time in February! Remember they can be adding other little fixes, and as for DirectTV, they are under contract so OF COURSE that one will go out first. You just need to think a little. The thing calls in daily, now if it only did it monthly you would have a point. The patch I bet is quite small and can easily go out in a night or two.


----------



## Pasketti

My S1 SAT-T60 was upgraded last night.

I also have a cachecard, with TivoWebPlus and EndPadPlus installed.

Needless to say, the upgrade blew away all my hacks, so I'm going to have to pull the drive to get them re-enabled.


----------



## Adam1115

BobCamp1 said:


> It's really simple. I paid for unit lifetime guide data. The unit is still working, and the guide data is wrong. Fix it. Or get me another unit that works which also has lifetime guide data.


TiVo has already stated that if they did nothing, the guide data and recordings would be fine, and that they are not doing nothing.

From the beginning of this thread..



TiVoStephen said:


> fluke, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about how the recording engine works. It works completely off GMT. All guide data is provided to us in GMT. As you say, NTP updates the correct GMT time.
> 
> So, even if TiVo Inc. did absolutely nothing for Series1 users, 100% of your Season Pass and one-time recordings would still work perfectly, since the GMT schedule is not affected by local DST at all. Your local offset ONLY applies for display issues (that is, what time is shown in the guide).
> 
> If we did nothing, you'd see the wrong time listed in the guide, but recordings would still work. The correct time GMT is always provided when your unit makes a connection.
> 
> So, the first answer given to you by support is correct. (I'm not happy with any of their other answers, however; please provide me with any agent names who gave you the other answers so we can make sure they're educated on this subject.)
> 
> As Jerry and Pony have already said, we don't plan on doing nothing. Details are forthcoming.
> 
> Many of us TiVo employees are Series1 users. We're not going to leave you high and dry.
> 
> I've been working here eight years. In eight years, while many of our competitors have sold DVRs that have had major DST issues, I've never seen any real problems with TiVo's software. (We did have a bug with repeating manual recordings back in 2000, but it was quickly corrected.)


----------



## sfhub

visionary said:


> Hmmm... I still wonder what benefit there would be to getting this patch "early" like everyone wants it seems. Yep, I'm going to start MY DAYLIGHT time in February!


You can verify
1) the fix worked (check guide data for March 11)
2) the fix didn't break anything important like daily connection (turbonet/tivonet)

Especially useful if you are going away for the weekend.


----------



## bicker

Could someone confirm/refute: If you're using a Series 1 stand-alone (i.e., no subscription, which was permitted with the S1), there is no way to "fix" the DST issue...


----------



## ah30k

bicker said:


> Could someone confirm/refute: If you're using a Series 1 stand-alone (i.e., no subscription, which was permitted with the S1), there is no way to "fix" the DST issue...


If you don't have any guide data, why do you care if the DST fix is in? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but is there any reason you need the fix?


----------



## murgatroyd

ah30k said:


> If you don't have any guide data, why do you care if the DST fix is in? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but is there any reason you need the fix?


Older S1s can be used unsubbed in the same fashion one records with a VCR, by manual recordings, which are set by Time and Channel.

These recordings are created in reference to Local Time.

If the TiVo believes it is still on Standard Time when the broadcasters are on DST, the recordings will be off by one hour.

Thus everyone who is recording with Manual Recordings will have to re-do all their manual recordings.

It's not a PITA for me because I am subbed and only have two manual recordings. I can easily work around the bad local time issue for four weeks of the year.

But I feel for the guys who are running unsubbed.

P.S. I suggest those of you who want to trash your S1s now give them a good home by sending them to someone else who has a S1.

Then the guys running unsubbed can have an extra TiVo to set up for the four weeks out of the year where DST is off. 

Jan


----------



## GoHokies!

murgatroyd said:


> Then the guys running unsubbed can have an extra TiVo to set up for the four weeks out of the year where DST is off.


Or send it to me and further my quest to collect the whole set! 

OK, so I'm starting slow - I only have 2 S2STs (240 and 540) a S2DT and an S3. I think I'll be satisfied when I get a Humax (or Pioneer) and an S1.


----------



## sfhub

ah30k said:


> If you don't have any guide data, why do you care if the DST fix is in? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but is there any reason you need the fix?


Your wall clock does not have any guide data. Do you care that it is 1hr off? Unsubbed units record using user specified "local" times and will be 1hr off from the broadcasts once March 11th rolls by.


----------



## BobCamp1

Adam1115 said:


> TiVo has already stated that if they did nothing, the guide data and recordings would be fine, and that they are not doing nothing.


If the times listed in the guide data are wrong, the guide data is not fine! If you wanted to watch the program live, and used Tivo to figure out when it was on, you'd be watching at the wrong time.

What if the guide data were "correct", but each program title was one letter off, so ER was "FS"? Or Desparate Housewives was "Eftqbsbuf Ipvtfxjwft"? Would you still think the guide data was correct? The season passes would still work, but manual recordings would be difficult to set up. Most sane people would think this is not acceptable.

The guide data is wrong. It needs to be fixed. They had a long time to figure this out. If they are planning on fixing it, they have waited too long to tell people how they are going to fix it.


----------



## cherry ghost

murgatroyd said:


> Then the guys running unsubbed can have an extra TiVo to set up for the four weeks out of the year where DST is off.
> 
> Jan


Some years it'll be five weeks.


----------



## logic88

Pasketti said:


> Needless to say, the upgrade blew away all my hacks, so I'm going to have to pull the drive to get them re-enabled.


Hmmm... It would be a bit of a pain to have to re-enable telnet/FTP access on my SA S1. Perhaps I can live without a patch after all.


----------



## parzec

bicker said:


> Could someone confirm/refute: If you're using a Series 1 stand-alone (i.e., no subscription, which was permitted with the S1), there is no way to "fix" the DST issue...


You raise a very good point since these are valid Tivo users, too. From a technical standpoint, it would not be impossible to upgrade the system to fix the DST issue - I think the S1 still periodically dials home even though unsubbed to synchronize clock, etc. From a legal standpoint, though, I do not believe Tivo owes them the upgrade since they are not under any ongoing contractual obligation with the user -- unlike the situation with lifetime and monthly subbed users.


----------



## TiVoJerry

I apologize for not stepping into this thread sooner, but I have been deeply involved with numerous departments hammering out the messaging for DST in regards to ALL TiVo platforms. Admittedly, the Series1 has taken up a large portion of those discussions.

The bottom line is that while the clocks will not be adjusted to display properly for the new DST schedule, all of your non-manual recordings will continue to happen normally. Season Passes, Wishlists, individually scheduled recordings, and Suggestions will all continue to record at the proper time regardless of what time is being displayed on various screens.

Unfortunately, manual recordings are based on the DVR's local time. As such, all manual recordings (those that were scheduled using "manually Record Time/Channel" and are listed in the To Do list preceded by the word "Manual") will need to be adjusted to start one hour earlier.

Why an hour earlier? Remember that the DVR is now an hour behind the schedule. From 3/11 to 4/1, the S1 will think, for example, that it is 7am when the rest of the clocks in your house show the time is actually 8am (your clocks have "jumped ahead" but the S1's clock did not). So, if you plan to manually record a program from 8:00 am to 9:00 am, you will need to set it up to record from 7:00 am to 8:00 am for this three week time period.

Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1 for a long time, but unfortunately none exist. While we know that it is not ideal to adjust manual recordings for these three weeks, unfortunately it is the only alternative for those customers who rely upon VCR-style program scheduling. We apologize for this inconvenience.


----------



## Opusnbill7

TiVoJerry said:


> I apologize for not stepping into this thread sooner, but I have been deeply involved with numerous departments hammering out the messaging for DST in regards to ALL TiVo platforms. Admittedly, the Series1 has taken up a large portion of those discussions.
> 
> The bottom line is that while the clocks will not be adjusted to display properly for the new DST schedule, all of your non-manual recordings will continue to happen normally. Season Passes, Wishlists, individually scheduled recordings, and Suggestions will all continue to record at the proper time regardless of what time is being displayed on various screens.
> 
> Unfortunately, manual recordings are based on the DVR's local time. As such, all manual recordings (those that were scheduled using "manually Record Time/Channel" and are listed in the To Do list preceded by the word "Manual") will need to be adjusted to start one hour earlier.
> 
> Why an hour earlier? Remember that the DVR is now an hour behind the schedule. From 3/11 to 4/1, the S1 will think, for example, that it is 7am when the rest of the clocks in your house show the time is actually 8am (your clocks have "jumped ahead" but the S1's clock did not). So, if you plan to manually record a program from 8:00 am to 9:00 am, you will need to set it up to record from 7:00 am to 8:00 am for this three week time period.
> 
> Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1 for a long time, but unfortunately none exist. While we know that it is not ideal to adjust manual recordings for these three weeks, unfortunately it is the only alternative for those customers who rely upon VCR-style program scheduling. We apologize for this inconvenience.


Very disappointing...


----------



## GoHokies!

GoHokies! said:


> No, it means that the DirecTV patch got finished first.
> 
> It ain't over until the fat lady sings. (but I'll be here to eat my crow on Sunday morning if y'all don't get some love)


I'll take that crow medium rare, please with a nice tall glass of sweet tea?

That really sucks for you all - hopefully it won't be a huge problem for too many of you.


----------



## parzec

TiVoJerry said:


> Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1 for a long time, but unfortunately none exist. While we know that it is not ideal to adjust manual recordings for these three weeks, unfortunately it is the only alternative for those customers who rely upon VCR-style program scheduling. We apologize for this inconvenience.


Wow!! Tivo is just blowing off all of its Series 1 customers...incredible.


----------



## paris5

Is it possible we'll see a software update for S1 tivos? My SAT-T60 has been running great for years, and I'd hate to give it up. Is it just not as easy as the patch for 6.2 Dtivos?


----------



## TiVoJerry

paris5 said:


> Is it possible we'll see a software update for S1 tivos? My SAT-T60 has been running great for years, and I'd hate to give it up. Is it just not as easy as the patch for 6.2 Dtivos?


The S1 units being discussed in this thread are the standalone units. DTV platforms are addressed separately. See www.tivo.com/dst for more information.


----------



## Stu_Bee

TiVoJerry said:


> Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1 for a long time, but unfortunately none exist


Hmm....I find it a little hard to believe that no solution exists. Maybe you really mean no solution that didn't require a lot of cost for an unmaintained platform? (ie coding and sending a patch to systems via their phone call?). Unless the Timezone table is actually hardcoded into the Tivo bios...I don't see how a patch wasn't possible. 
[Yes I could be wrong...Haven't been considered a programmer in many, many years]

Also, I guess the S1 users will have an issue at the end of DST as well (not mentioned in the Tivo page)...and also each year.


----------



## jsmeeker

the issue when we fall back a week "late" will be just like us going forward "early". It will just look weird. And it only will be a week. No big deal.


----------



## Opusnbill7

jsmeeker said:


> the issue when we fall back a week "late" will be just like us going forward "early". It will just look weird. And it only will be a week. No big deal.


Well....it will be annoying. And, as a lifetime subscriber, I'm disappointed that it appears S1 support is ending (maybe not "officially" yet, but this certainly looks like the beginning of the end...) Not sure where that puts things with a box that has a "lifetime of the box" subscription that hasn't died yet. Well, if they don't want to fix the problem (which they are within their rights to make that choice I admit), I hope that Tivo will do something to "make it right"....


----------



## George Cifranci

parzec said:


> Wow!! Tivo is just blowing off all of its Series 1 customers...incredible.


Well... the S1 customers who want to do manual recordings anyway.


----------



## Rowsdower

George Cifranci said:


> Well... the S1 customers who want to do manual recordings anyway.


I don't know about you, but I consider having the wrong time displayed to be a major inconvenience (even if the programs still record).

The engineers have had 19 months to get their act together, and they're giving owners of standalone Series1 units *nothing*. I'm glad that I no longer own such boxes (having switched to DirecTV models), and I only regret having recommended them to so many people.

_"Many of us TiVo employees are Series1 users. We're not going to leave you high and dry."_ And yet, that's exactly what they're doing. It's a heck of a way to treat some of the oldest and the most loyal TiVo subscribers.


----------



## murgatroyd

BobCamp1 said:


> If the times listed in the guide data are wrong, the guide data is not fine! If you wanted to watch the program live, and used Tivo to figure out when it was on, you'd be watching at the wrong time.
> 
> What if the guide data were "correct", but each program title was one letter off, so ER was "FS"? Or Desparate Housewives was "Eftqbsbuf Ipvtfxjwft"? Would you still think the guide data was correct? The season passes would still work, but manual recordings would be difficult to set up. Most sane people would think this is not acceptable.
> 
> The guide data is wrong. It needs to be fixed. They had a long time to figure this out. If they are planning on fixing it, they have waited too long to tell people how they are going to fix it.


No, the Guide Data is NOT wrong. Please don't spread misinformation.

The TiVo and the Guide Data are using GMT. Ordinary SPs will record just fine. The only thing broken is one algorithm that is used to display the time onscreen.

As for the your statement "If you wanted to watch the program live, and used Tivo to figure out when it was on ... "

I can only respond, _That is not the way we do things in the TiVolution._

Edited to add:

Many thanks to TiVoJerry for confirming that the ordinary SPs and ARWLs will be working as usual. :up: :up: :up:

Jan


----------



## Bill McNeal

TiVoJerry said:


> Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1 for a long time, but unfortunately none exist. While we know that it is not ideal to adjust manual recordings for these three weeks, unfortunately it is the only alternative for those customers who rely upon VCR-style program scheduling. We apologize for this inconvenience.


Does this refer to the manual recordings of unsubbed S1 units, or of all S1's, including monthly subbed and lifetime?

If it's for all units, does that mean patches are no longer being offered even for subbed/lifetime S1 units?


----------



## btwyx

I got an email about DST and the Series 1 this evening.



[email protected] said:


> Dear TiVo Subscriber,
> 
> As Daylight Saving Time commences three weeks early this year, we thought we'd beat the clock to let you know how this unusual schedule might affect recordings on your TiVo(r) Series1 DVR. (Hint: Chances are slim.)
> While the TiVo service will continue to automatically record your Season Pass(tm) programs and WishList(r) searches at the correct airtimes without incident, there are two things to note:
> 
> 1) For the three weeks that follow the new Daylight Saving Time start date (March 11), your Series1 TiVo(r) DVR may display the incorrect time.
> Again, to be clear, this is only a cosmetic issue and should not affect your Season Pass(tm) and WishList(r) recordings.
> 
> 2) If you have any MANUAL recordings scheduled between March 11 and April 1, you
> will need to adjust those recordings as appropriate. Here's how:
> - From TiVo Central, select Pick Programs to Record, then To Do List.
> - Locate your Manual Recording (by channel, date, time) and adjust accordingly. For example, if you have a daily manual recording from 8:00 am - 9:00 am, you will need to change it to 7:00 am - 8:00 am on March 11. (Quick Tip: If there are no recordings in this list preceded by the word "Manual", there's nothing further you need to do.)
> - On April 1 be sure to change it back to its actual time, i.e., 8:00 am - 9:00 am.
> 
> For more details, please visit www.tivo.com/dst
> 
> Thanks for being a TiVo subscriber and here's to a beautiful spring!
> 
> - Your friends at TiVo


----------



## samo

> As for the your statement "If you wanted to watch the program live, and used Tivo to figure out when it was on ... "
> 
> I can only respond, That is not the way we do things in the TiVolution.


Yes. Here at TiVolution we love to pay $13/month for the guide that is an hour off. We are so stupid here that we don't even notice a difference. As long as TiVo inc saves money and is able to pay bonuses to execs we are happy. TiVo can do no wrong. It is all S1 owners fault. They knew for years that S1 was abandoned and were too cheap to upgrade to S2. Especially these early adaptors who bought lifetime subs. They cause TiVo to lose money for years and now they have guts to ask for a software fix that everybody else is getting. Shame on you! Long live TiVo board of directors.


----------



## Rowsdower

murgatroyd said:


> No, the Guide Data is NOT wrong. Please don't spread misinformation.


So...standalone Series1 TiVo units will continue to display the correct times?



> The TiVo and the Guide Data are using GMT. Ordinary SPs will record just fine.


...which isn't what BobCamp1 referred to.



> The only thing broken is one algorithm that is used to display the time onscreen.


And as a result, the displayed times will be wrong. TiVo's description of this issue as "cosmetic" is downright insulting. (I understand what distinction is being drawn, but this shouldn't even be necessary.)



> As for the your statement "If you wanted to watch the program live, and used Tivo to figure out when it was on ... "
> 
> I can only respond, _That is not the way we do things in the TiVolution._


Wow, way to drink the Kool-Aid. I've been accused blindly supporting TiVo, but you're way over-the-top. Someone merely wants his TiVo box to function properly, and you chide him for having the audacity to do something differently than you do.



> Many thanks to TiVoJerry for confirming that the ordinary SPs and ARWLs will be working as usual. :up: :up: :up:


Again, wow. You're actually praising the company for delivering absolutely nothing to its standalone Series1 customers (despite having had 19 months to address the issue) and for confirming that only some of the functionality will be broken as a result.


----------



## SnakeEyes

TiVoJerry said:


> Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1 for a long time, but unfortunately none exist. While we know that it is not ideal to adjust manual recordings for these three weeks, unfortunately it is the only alternative for those customers who rely upon VCR-style program scheduling. We apologize for this inconvenience.


That is ridiculous and poor customer service for your oldest and most loyal customers. There is no excuse here.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

I'm way past disappointed, and I don't even own an S1 TiVo. I sold mine to a colleague who still uses it. I wonder what his reaction will be.

And as to the email that said

_- Locate your Manual Recording (by channel, date, time) and adjust accordingly. For example, if you have a daily manual recording from 8:00 am - 9:00 am, you will need to change it to 7:00 am - 8:00 am on March 11._

that's ridiculous as well. That's beyond ridiculous. That's way beyond absurd

*THERE IS NO WAY TO "CHANGE" THE RECORDING WITHOUT DELETING IT AND RE-ENTERING IT IN ITS ENTIRELY.*

That includes # of episodes to save, start and stop times (including start and stop padding) channel, and day of week.

I don't think TiVo understands the meaning of what I just said. So I'll repeat it:

*THERE IS NO WAY TO "CHANGE" THE RECORDING WITHOUT DELETING IT AND RE-ENTERING IT IN ITS ENTIRELY.*

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong, maybe the S1 is more flexible than my DirecTiVos (on which the manual recording must be deleted entirely).

I have 19 manual recordings on one of my R10 boxes. Hopefully they'll continue to work properly.


----------



## doc_chiron

Greetings: I have an S2 Toshiba SD-H400 w/ free lifetime TiVo Basic in use daily and was given an HDR110 (PTV100) that failed when calling in to do a first-time setup in a new cable area (probably need the external modem setup).

I had not taken the time to think about the contents of the guide-data down load, but all of this discussion about the DST change has me thinking that their programming was very smart!

Every one of TiVo's customers receives the same guide data (program detail info and start and end times <or duration> in GMT) for the programming services they receive. By supplying your zipcode during setup, TiVo narrows down the channel relationship to programming sources depending on whether you are using OTA, cable or satellite services. If multiple cable systems serve different portions of that zipcode, you are provided a opportunity to select your cable provider.

As I'm in the Pacific time-zone, allowing a change to Mountain Time for three weeks now and 1 week after Halloween would suffice, but with TiVo Basic I'd have to go through the BIG (initial) setup 4 times a year possibly having to switch from my wireless network connection back to TELCO to make it happen. I have been giving serious thought to dumping our land-line and living with just mobiles.

Since the program providers send out their signals simultaneously to all program distributors (i.e. cable companies and satellite services and even local broadcasters), it is up to the individual box to convert the guide times from GMT to local time based on the Time-Zone selected during setup. I think that makes perfect sense. Everyone receives the same guide data for the programming services they receive. What a nightmare it would be if they had to customize the guide-data for every cable company and OTA zipcode!!

Could someone point me to the forum that explains the BACKING UP to VCR feature that is not offered to BASIC customers? What about those TiVos with built-in DVD recorders?

I'm going to watch that for that weird 8hr (3/10 6pm-2am) when my S2 has the wrong time displayed.

BTW: My main DVR is a DCT6416 dual tuner HD that cost nothing for the box and only $9.95 /mo. for DVR service (yes and $6 for the HD tier).


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

TiVoJerry said:


> Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1 for a long time, but unfortunately none exist. While we know that it is not ideal to adjust manual recordings for these three weeks, unfortunately it is the only alternative for those customers who rely upon VCR-style program scheduling. We apologize for this inconvenience.


TiVo engineers gave it the old "college try" but were totally incapable of accomplishing this humongous task in the mere year of time alloted.

There's one particular cartoon that comes to mind. It's one of my favorites, I've linked to it before. The link is broken right now, maybe it will be fixed soon:

http://theory.rockefeller.edu/

_Knowing how it could change the life of canines everywhere, the dog scientists struggled diligently to understand the Doorknob Principle_


----------



## boblip11

:down:


TiVoJerry said:


> Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1 for a long time, but unfortunately none exist. While we know that it is not ideal to adjust manual recordings for these three weeks, unfortunately it is the only alternative for those customers who rely upon VCR-style program scheduling. We apologize for this inconvenience.


Alternate Solution ????

Hello....pull the damn code down off the shelf and change the subroutine.

You have had a year. Don't try to sweet talk us with words like cosmetic. You are just too cheap to make the coding change. Now I know it is scary to change the old code....you probably laid off the engineers who wrote it and the original coding might be a bit ugly....but for a company that says they are customer focused and is still taking money for monthly service it is what you should be doing

...this is just wrong.

Ways to recover...Time to trot out a deal for Series 1 owners to move off the platform...for those Series 1 owners who did not realize you were going to leave them in the past (by an hour) the last time you offered the deal.


----------



## Adam1115

Phantom Gremlin said:


> TiVo engineers gave it the old "college try" but were totally incapable of accomplishing this humongous task in the mere year of time alloted.


LOL

TiVo and every other company... Try Microsoft?

If you guys think the Series1 is the only thing that won't work 100% correctly with the time change, your sadly mis-informed.

We recently underwent some testing with Microsoft's Outlook / Exchange patches.

Guess what? Most of the time, a chuck of calendar appointments are screwed up, not matter what you do. Microsoft actually recommends PRINTING OUT your calendar, manually checking it for the next three weeks...!


----------



## parzec

Adam1115 said:


> LOL
> 
> TiVo and every other company... Try Microsoft?
> 
> If you guys think the Series1 is the only thing that won't work 100% correctly with the time change, your sadly mis-informed.
> 
> We recently underwent some testing with Microsoft's Outlook / Exchange patches.
> 
> Guess what? Most of the time, a chuck of calendar appointments are screwed up, not matter what you do. Microsoft actually recommends PRINTING OUT your calendar, manually checking it for the next three weeks...!


At least they made a patch


----------



## CrispyCritter

boblip11 said:


> Hello....pull the damn code down off the shelf and change the subroutine.
> 
> You have had a year. Don't try to sweet talk us with words like cosmetic. You are just too cheap to make the coding change. Now I know it is scary to change the old code....you probably laid off the engineers who wrote it and the original coding might be a bit ugly....but for a company that says they are customer focused and is still taking money for monthly service it is what you should be doing
> 
> ...this is just wrong.
> 
> Ways to recover...Time to trot out a deal for Series 1 owners to move off the platform...for those Series 1 owners who did not realize you were going to leave them in the past (by an hour) the last time you offered the deal.


I think you are severely underestimating the technical problem.

I wouldn't even want to attempt the correction unless I could create a bit-for-bit duplicate of the current Series 1 software binaries. As well as the 5 year old source code (which shouldn't be a problem at all), that means duplicating the development environment, including compiler versions, of 5 years ago, as well as probably having to run on 5-6 year old development machines. That in turn might mean relicensing those exact ancient versions of the development software, which is incredibly difficult.

TiVo cannot take a chance that some compiler "fix" or optimization change might affect the timing of some rarely occurring event and interfere with the normal activities of the TiVo. If TiVo goofs up, it might turn all of the existing Series 1 into paperweights if that rare event happens. It hardly seems worth risking that for a feature that subscribers rarely use.

I'm disappointed that TiVo can't fix the Series 1, but I'm not terribly surprised.


----------



## sbourgeo

CrispyCritter said:


> I'm disappointed that TiVo can't fix the Series 1, but I'm not terribly surprised.


Can't or won't? It certainly didn't seem to be a problem to provide a fix for ReplayTV boxes: link.


----------



## mitkraft

CrispyCritter said:


> I think you are severely underestimating the technical problem.
> 
> I wouldn't even want to attempt the correction unless I could create a bit-for-bit duplicate of the current Series 1 software binaries. As well as the 5 year old source code (which shouldn't be a problem at all), that means duplicating the development environment, including compiler versions, of 5 years ago, as well as probably having to run on 5-6 year old development machines. That in turn might mean relicensing those exact ancient versions of the development software, which is incredibly difficult.
> 
> TiVo cannot take a chance that some compiler "fix" or optimization change might affect the timing of some rarely occurring event and interfere with the normal activities of the TiVo. If TiVo goofs up, it might turn all of the existing Series 1 into paperweights if that rare event happens. It hardly seems worth risking that for a feature that subscribers rarely use.
> 
> I'm disappointed that TiVo can't fix the Series 1, but I'm not terribly surprised.


AWWW that's such crap. I'm calling B$#% SA%^& on this post. I used to work for Compaq in the commercial portables division doing exactly this kind of stuff. I worked in the test lab and was responsible for testing all the software & driver patches for Armadas. And we kept several units of every model hanging around going back quite a while. We ALWAYS ran tests of all our software updates and patches on ALL these machines. And guess what? WE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A REVENUE STREAM FROM THESE UNITS. Tivo still gets $12 a month for many of these units. That means that almost every year they get from their S1 monthly customers more than the hardware is actually currently worth. And you don't think that justifies keeping around the original development and testing environments? Even though most computer related companies do the same (its called legacy support) for quite a while even though they don't receive any additional revenue for doing so after the sale? Talk about drinking the Kool-Aide!


----------



## wdave

Tivo, this is unacceptable.

I paid for lifetime service on my S1, and am NOT receiving service.

You can refund me my lifetime service to me, or I'd also accept a replacement S2, transferring my lifetime service to that unit.


----------



## Rowsdower

Adam1115 said:


> LOL
> 
> TiVo and every other company... Try Microsoft?
> 
> If you guys think the Series1 is the only thing that won't work 100% correctly with the time change, your sadly mis-informed.


1. Did Microsoft sell "lifetime" service to its customers? Is Microsoft billing owners of the software in question on a monthly basis? At least Microsoft formally discontinues support for older products (instead of stringing users along and pretending that "support" means sending an e-mail downplaying problems that they refuse to correct).

2. Is "other companies failed too" (scare quotes) the best argument that you can come up with? Do you _really_ want to compare TiVo with Microsoft?


----------



## Rowsdower

CrispyCritter said:


> I think you are severely underestimating the technical problem.


TiVo has had 19 months to address the issue. *Nineteen months.*



> I wouldn't even want to attempt the correction unless I could create a bit-for-bit duplicate of the current Series 1 software binaries. As well as the 5 year old source code (which shouldn't be a problem at all), that means duplicating the development environment, including compiler versions, of 5 years ago, as well as probably having to run on 5-6 year old development machines. That in turn might mean relicensing those exact ancient versions of the development software, which is incredibly difficult.


Are you serious? You don't think that TiVo is even prepared to modify the Series1 code if the need arises? If this is so, shame on them, but I seriously doubt it. They're still taking money from some of these subscribers, for crying out loud!


----------



## janry

It really won't impact me much since I rarely do manual recordings but I am so very disappointed in TiVo's commitment their subscribers. 

When I finally join the 21st century and go to HDTV, I'll have to think twice before buying a Series 3.


----------



## classicsat

boblip11 said:


> :down:
> Ways to recover...Time to trot out a deal for Series 1 owners to move off the platform...for those Series 1 owners who did not realize you were going to leave them in the past (by an hour) the last time you offered the deal.





wdave said:


> Tivo, this is unacceptable.
> 
> I paid for lifetime service on my S1, and am NOT receiving service.
> 
> You can refund me my lifetime service to me, or I'd also accept a replacement S2, transferring my lifetime service to that unit.


They already gave that offer. Not their fault you chose not to take them up on it, or chose to get a Series 1 after that offer passed and they stated Series 1 development ceased. Ant they are providing most of the service still.


----------



## BobCamp1

murgatroyd said:


> No, the Guide Data is NOT wrong. Please don't spread misinformation.
> 
> The TiVo and the Guide Data are using GMT. Ordinary SPs will record just fine. The only thing broken is one algorithm that is used to display the time onscreen.
> 
> As for the your statement "If you wanted to watch the program live, and used Tivo to figure out when it was on ... "
> 
> I can only respond, _That is not the way we do things in the TiVolution._
> 
> Edited to add:
> 
> Many thanks to TiVoJerry for confirming that the ordinary SPs and ARWLs will be working as usual. :up: :up: :up:
> 
> Jan


It's not misinformation. When I view the "guide", the "data" displayed has times for the shows as being an hour off. See the words "guide" and "data" in the previous sentence? Don't use a technical loophole to tell me that the guide data isn't wrong. The end user will perceive it as being wrong. It simply looks wrong. There's an obviously problem there.

This is a case where Tivo couldn't figure out how to do it without an upgrade, and decided they really didn't want to upgrade all those units. Then they convinced themselves that it wouldn't be THAT bad. I've been in similar projects before, and the outcome is rarely as good as you think it will be.

And you forgot to mention that manual recordings are also broken. And don't tell me that I'm not supposed to watch live TV anymore.

Notice that they DID upgrade the S1 DirecTivos. DirecTV must have forced them to do it. That's sad from a company that generally does the right thing, even if it takes them a while to do it. They dropped the ball here.


----------



## wdave

classicsat said:


> They already gave that offer. Not their fault you chose not to take them up on it...


Oh? I missed a free (completely free) upgrade to a S2 with lifetime transfer? When was that offered?

I've always been happy with my S1, until now. Tivo has a few ways to fix this problem: software patch, a refund, or free upgrade to S2 with lifetime transfer. I'll listen to other ways to make it right. Those are the three that come to mind.


----------



## Bill McNeal

I don't quite understand, why is it so much harder to patch the system clock for the S1 compared to S2/S3?


----------



## CharlesH

I wonder if our brilliant legislators consider these costs when they fool around with the DST schedule. And it doesn't just apply to "old" computer systems like the Series 1: the manual for my new Honda Pilot says that that the automatic DST adjustment of the clock using the fancy GPS navigation system will be broken by this change, and their recommended fix is to disable the automatic adjustment, and turn DST on/off manually. I would have thought that they would would have a firmware patch you could have your dealer install. 

The problem is even worse for appliances that have clocks but do not have firmware update capabilities. They are just going to be wrong.


----------



## CharlesH

Bill McNeal said:


> I don't quite understand, why is it so much harder to patch the system clock for the S1 compared to S2/S3?


You are not patching the clock; you are patching the algorithm (or table driving the algorithm) to convert GMT (actually, seconds since an epoch) to local time. On many Unix systems, this is a simple matter of replacing a text file that contains the DST rules (no patch to the compiled code at all). Maybe it isn't that simple for the older S1, and requires a new binary build, which, as others have mentioned, has risks and costs associated with it.


----------



## dstoffa

CharlesH said:


> You are not patching the clock; you are patching the algorithm (or table driving the algorithm) to convert GMT (actually, seconds since an epoch) to local time. On many Unix systems, this is a simple matter of replacing a text file that contains the DST rules (no patch to the compiled code at all). Maybe it isn't that simple for the older S1, and requires a new binary build, which, as others have mentioned, has risks associated with it.


ReplayTVs can be updated to handle the new DST switch, but it's not automatic. On the RTV Platform, the DST Rules are tied to the zip code the unit is programmed for. The update was to delete the existing zipcode, and re-enter it, forcing the unit to connect to the mothership to obtain the new DST rules.

The ease of making the switch will depend how the OS was coded in the first place.

-Doug


----------



## CrispyCritter

mitkraft said:


> AWWW that's such crap. I'm calling B$#% SA%^& on this post. I used to work for Compaq in the commercial portables division doing exactly this kind of stuff. I worked in the test lab and was responsible for testing all the software & driver patches for Armadas. And we kept several units of every model hanging around going back quite a while. We ALWAYS ran tests of all our software updates and patches on ALL these machines. And guess what? WE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A REVENUE STREAM FROM THESE UNITS. Tivo still gets $12 a month for many of these units. That means that almost every year they get from their S1 monthly customers more than the hardware is actually currently worth. And you don't think that justifies keeping around the original development and testing environments? Even though most computer related companies do the same (its called legacy support) for quite a while even though they don't receive any additional revenue for doing so after the sale? Talk about drinking the Kool-Aide!


Will you please tell me *exactly *what point I made that is "crap"? Did I argue that TiVo shouldn't be able to make these changes? To the contrary, I said I was disappointed. I was responding to a post that said it was just a changing a few lines in a subroutine. It's much, much more than that. Do you disagree?

I've tried to replicate a two year old binary to debug a problem; I failed. It's hard to replicate a development environment; there's all kinds of things that will go wrong. TiVo should have kept that environment around, but I can certainly see some accountant type saying "we need to get rid of these old non-TiVo machines" or "we need to stop paying license fees for these old compilers we don't use any more", and it not being caught by somebody who knew better. I'm sure TiVo has plenty of old Series 1 machines and their software around; it's whether they have the machine and software that originally produced the binaries for the Series 1 that is more problematic. Very different from your Compaq scenario.


----------



## murgatroyd

CharlesH said:


> You are not patching the clock; you are patching the algorithm (or table driving the algorithm) to convert GMT (actually, seconds since an epoch) to local time. On many Unix systems, this is a simple matter of replacing a text file that contains the DST rules (no patch to the compiled code at all). Maybe it isn't that simple for the older S1, and requires a new binary build, which, as others have mentioned, has risks and costs associated with it.


And if I have the choice between my S1s functioning properly and displaying a clock in Standard Time, or having a clock which displays the 'new' DST properly but screws up all the recordings, which one do you think I'll pick?

Disappointing, yes -- but this is not a major PITA, except to the guys who are running unsubbed.

Jan


----------



## Rowsdower

CrispyCritter said:


> TiVo should have kept that environment around, but I can certainly see some accountant type saying "we need to get rid of these old non-TiVo machines" or "we need to stop paying license fees for these old compilers we don't use any more", and it not being caught by somebody who knew better.


If that were so, it would mean that TiVoStephen lied when he promised that a fix was forthcoming and that TiVoJerry lied when he claimed that the engineers attempted to address the problem. I don't believe that. I also don't believe that TiVo is stupid enough to abandon tools necessary to support paying customers.


----------



## Rowsdower

murgatroyd said:


> And if I have the choice between my S1s functioning properly and displaying a clock in Standard Time, or having a clock which displays the 'new' DST properly but screws up all the recordings, which one do you think I'll pick?


Again, TiVo's engineers had *nineteen months* to code and test a patch.



> _Disappointing, yes -- but this is not a major PITA, except to the guys who are running unsubbed._


1. To me, having incorrect times displayed would be a major PITA.

2. People with unsubscribed units have as much right as anyone to expect proper operation.


----------



## rainwater

Rowsdower said:


> If that were so, it would mean that TiVoStephen lied when he promised that a fix was forthcoming and that TiVoJerry lied when he claimed that the engineers attempted to address the problem. I don't believe that. I also don't believe that TiVo is stupid enough to abandon tools necessary to support paying customers.


Actually, I think CrispyCritter hit the nail on the head. Creating a new software release may be difficult considering TiVo has long since upgraded the tools they use to build the software. That doesn't mean anyone from TiVo lied. It may be they had issues compiling all of the necessary components or packaging a release. In no way does that mean they didn't try or Jerry or Stephen lied.


----------



## Rowsdower

rainwater said:


> Actually, I think CrispyCritter hit the nail on the head. Creating a new software release may be difficult considering TiVo has long since upgraded the tools they use to build the software. That doesn't mean anyone from TiVo lied. It may be they had issues compiling all of the necessary components or packaging a release. In no way does that mean they didn't try or Jerry or Stephen lied.


CrispyCritter has suggested that perhaps TiVo no longer possess the tools necessary to _attempt_ a standalone Series1 software update. You're suggesting that their present situation merely rendered this more difficult (which is plausible).

Both arguments, however, are negated by the fact that TiVo managed to fix the Series1 DirecTV boxes and the fact that they had *nineteen months* to address the issue.

Obviously, this is a matter of poor planning and prioritization (with owners of standalone Series1 units deemed the least important).


----------



## murgatroyd

BobCamp1 said:


> It's not misinformation. When I view the "guide", the "data" displayed has times for the shows as being an hour off. See the words "guide" and "data" in the previous sentence? Don't use a technical loophole to tell me that the guide data isn't wrong. The end user will perceive it as being wrong. It simply looks wrong. There's an obviously problem there.


The Guide Data's primary purpose is for the TiVo to use, in order to record your programs. That function still works. You can still go in and choose your shows by title or use your wishlists or whatever and the TiVo will record properly.

The statement "the Guide Data is wrong" implies to me that our TiVos would be picking up a lineup that is for some other timezone, which is not the case.



> And you forgot to mention that manual recordings are also broken. And don't tell me that I'm not supposed to watch live TV anymore.


I can't see how your ability to watch Live TV has been changed, unless you have no other clock in your house besides the one displayed by your TiVo. Are you incapable of reading any other clock besides the one that the TiVo puts on your TV screen? 

If I want to watch Live TV right now, I can turn on my S1, pop up the Live TV guide, see what's on, and surf through the Guide to find something cool. This function will also be working just fine despite the clock looking goofy.

The Manual Recordings are busted, yes.



> Notice that they DID upgrade the S1 DirecTivos. DirecTV must have forced them to do it. That's sad from a company that generally does the right thing, even if it takes them a while to do it. They dropped the ball here.


I don't know what the programming scenario is for the DTiVos versus the S1s, but I think it is unlikely that "DirecTV must have forced them to do it". I'm sure DirecTV would much rather have everyone who owns a DTiVo leasing the new equipment from them instead.

Look at the big picture for a moment, just for the sake of argument.

The ideal situation would be to have everything working perfectly. Absent that, what are the possibilities?

1) the on-screen clock could be perfect and only the Manual Recordings would work, the rest of the DVR functions would be an hour off

OR

2) the on-screen clock is an hour off, and the Manual Recordings don't work, but the SP and WL-based recordings work just fine.

The guys who are unsubbed and use Manual Recordings would prefer scenario #1, but if you are unsubbed, _you are not using the Guide Data_.

I use SPs and WLs so I prefer scenario #2. Why is this so difficult to understand?

I am not going to get into a major snit because two manual recordings (out of over 90 SPs and ARWL) will not work properly.

My Guide Data is correct. My TiVos work.

Jan


----------



## murgatroyd

Rowsdower said:


> Again, TiVo's engineers had *nineteen months* to code and test a patch.
> 
> 1. To me, having incorrect times displayed would be a major PITA.
> 
> 2. People with unsubscribed units have as much right as anyone to expect proper operation.


Why is it a *major* PITA to have the display clock an hour off for the ordinary subbed TiVo user?

For everyday TiVo use, you fire up the TV, you go to Now Playing, you choose the show you want to watch, and you watch it. 90% of the time we don't even see the on-screen clock.

Yes, it is a PITA for the guys running unsubbed. I can understand them being upset. What I can't understand is the attitude of the people who ARE subbed and have manual recordings for stuff like The Daily Show. There are other ways around their problem, which they refuse to use.



Rowsdower said:


> Obviously, this is a matter of poor planning and prioritization (with owners of standalone Series1 units deemed the least important).


Poor planning, maybe. But poor prioritization? On the contrary -- I expect TiVo to take care of the owners of the newer machines first, and the S1 people last. How else could one sell any more new machines?

Edited to add: for those of you bleating *nineteen months* over and over, do you think that TiVo has had nothing else more important to do in those nineteen months?

Jan


----------



## wdave

murgatroyd said:


> Disappointing, yes -- but this is not a major PITA, except to the guys who are running unsubbed.


And those that use manual recordings.

I use manual recording SPs regularly. Why? As a workaround for those shows that show multiple times per day/week without adequate guide data. Good examples are "Oprah" and "The Daily Show", as well as most shows on many cable channels like Comedy Central and MTV. Manual recording capability is important. They're taking that away as a reliable way to record my shows.


----------



## logic88

murgatroyd said:


> Poor planning, maybe. But poor prioritization? On the contrary -- I expect TiVo to take care of the owners of the newer machines first, and the S1 people last. How else could one sell any more new machines?
> 
> Edited to add: for those of you bleating *nineteen months* over and over, do you think that TiVo has had nothing else more important to do in those nineteen months?


I think people here would be a little more understanding if TiVo explained why it was so hard to make a patch. All of my other Linux systems has had a patch for months now. What makes the S1 so different from the other units?


----------



## 8bitbarbarian

It happens all the time  someone you love and support says they dont love you anymore. It hurts but you get over it. People and platforms get dumped everyday. Yes it hurts when you believed early on and it was new and exciting and you told all your friends how great your relationship was. It was special to feel like you had something better than everybody else but now there are other options and you can still coast out the remainder of time and not feel so bad about going with other DVR options in the future. 

Nothing lasts forever.

Most of all I remember the fun times.


----------



## btwyx

dstoffa said:


> The ease of making the switch will depend how the OS was coded in the first place.


It should have been coded so its really easy to change, anything which is depended on the whim of legeslators should be. It doesn't seem to have been, and the lack of any update really is dissapointing especially for S1's which are paying for service.


----------



## jevo

I think it especially bites that they didn't confess to this until now. 

Now, after they have closed the door to lifetime transfers. 

I for one have certainly created releases for 5 year old software. And I would never consider willingly relinquishing the development environment for old but commercially released and supported software. 

I think working with computers makes me smell the business management decisions from a mile away!


----------



## rainwater

btwyx said:


> It should have been coded so its really easy to change, anything which is depended on the whim of legeslators should be. It doesn't seem to have been, and the lack of any update really is dissapointing especially for S1's which are paying for service.


I really doubt changing the DST dates is hard. I think the process of building a release or providing the release is the issue.


----------



## jevo

Another thought -- this is not just a cosmetic issue. If you actually try to look through the guide data after Saturday, it is enormously confusing to try and navigate the schedule. And trying to coordinate this with manual recordings is just plain confusing.

My TiVo allowed me to almost always have recordings when I expected them. Now, and for four weeks a year from here on -- I will have a much higher error rate in my recordings.

TiVo was supposed to avoid this.


----------



## btwyx

rainwater said:


> I really doubt changing the DST dates is hard. I think the process of building a release or providing the release is the issue.


If it had been built with the idea that this might change, then it could have been as simple as downloading more data with a regular call. It obviously was not built like that and seems to have assumed the DST changeover was set in stone.

My point was assuming something subject to the whim of legeslators will not change is stupid.

Edit to add: Part of the problem is that in the US the DST change over has been set in stone for a while. The last time I had this problem to deal with we had a bunch of fickle legeslators (the UK parliament) who did change it quite often. I made damn sure that it was easy to change the DST dates.


----------



## Alcatraz

boblip11 said:


> Alternate Solution ????
> 
> Hello....pull the damn code down off the shelf and change the subroutine.
> 
> You have had a year. Don't try to sweet talk us with words like cosmetic. You are just too cheap to make the coding change. Now I know it is scary to change the old code....you probably laid off the engineers who wrote it and the original coding might be a bit ugly....but for a company that says they are customer focused and is still taking money for monthly service it is what you should be doing
> 
> ...this is just wrong.


I'm really surprised at the comments about upgrading the software. These things haven't had an upgrade in eons. I bet most of them would never survive the upgrade, and then you'd *really * hear people complaining...even it if was an elective process instead of the usual forced rollout.  I mean, come on, how many threads have you seen where people accused tivo of breaking their box with an upgrade on the _newer _ stuff? The series ones would probably croak.

And for those who have hacked their box, I've seen a few people brag about recovering the backup partition to use for recording space. Those boxes can't take a software upgrade either, but I'm sure the owners wouldn't hesitate to call in to support to complain about it.

If you've got a lot of manual recordings, or just want your series one to fix this "cosmetic" issue (okay, it is *definitely * going to confuse some old folks  ), repeat guided setup and choose the next time zone to your east. Just remember to do it again around 4/1. Don't know if those on the rigth coast have anywhere to go. 

Tivo didn't break it. I'll admit that it sucks they couldn't fix it, but i'm guessing it wasn't for lack of trying.



boblip11 said:


> Ways to recover...Time to trot out a deal for Series 1 owners to move off the platform...for those Series 1 owners who did not realize you were going to leave them in the past (by an hour) the last time you offered the deal.
> 
> Originally Posted by *jevo*
> I think it especially bites that they didn't confess to this until now.
> 
> Now, after they have closed the door to lifetime transfers.


Hopefully they'll realize that this is something they should concede on to get people with lifetime over to the new boxes. If you're still paying monthly fees, gett off your butt and switch!  Join the 21st century already!


----------



## Rowsdower

murgatroyd said:


> The Guide Data's primary purpose is for the TiVo to use, in order to record your programs. That function still works. You can still go in and choose your shows by title or use your wishlists or whatever and the TiVo will record properly.


For *you*, that's the guide data's primary purpose. Many people commit the sin of watching live television, and they use the TiVo guide as a means of determining when programs air. The fact that the guide is only _partially_ broken doesn't mean that nothing's wrong.



> _The statement "the Guide Data is wrong" implies to me that our TiVos would be picking up a lineup that is for some other timezone, which is not the case._


The times displayed in the guide will be wrong. Ergo, the guide will be wrong. Again, the fact that it could be even _more_ wrong is irrelevant.



> _I can't see how your ability to watch Live TV has been changed, unless you have no other clock in your house besides the one displayed by your TiVo. Are you incapable of reading any other clock besides the one that the TiVo puts on your TV screen? _


When I'm looking for live shows to watch, I use the on-screen guide. I see that a program is airing at 8:00 and plan to watch it at that time. It shouldn't be my responsibility to mentally adjust every time by one hour.

And frankly, I don't care whether you use your TiVo box in this manner or believe that others are foolish for doing so. When someone pays for a fully functional product, they're entitled to a fully functional product. I never use the "Suggestions" feature, but I wouldn't belittle someone for expecting it to work.



> _If I want to watch Live TV right now, I can turn on my S1, pop up the Live TV guide, see what's on, and surf through the Guide to find something cool. This function will also be working just fine despite the clock looking goofy._


The clock shouldn't look "goofy."



> _The Manual Recordings are busted, yes._


And that's unacceptable. Even crude VCRs can easily be set up to function properly.



> _I don't know what the programming scenario is for the DTiVos versus the S1s, but I think it is unlikely that "DirecTV must have forced them to do it"._


You _do_ realize that Tivo, Inc. is contractually obligated to provide such updates and could be penalized if it doesn't...right?



> _I'm sure DirecTV would much rather have everyone who owns a DTiVo leasing the new equipment from them instead._


Do you think that DirecTV wants to be flooded with support calls and account cancellations from angry subscribers? (I don't know how many standalone Series1 units remain in use, but TiVo is going to find itself fielding some calls of its own in a few days.)



> _Look at the big picture for a moment, just for the sake of argument.
> 
> The ideal situation would be to have everything working perfectly._


Right. And that's where we'd be if TiVo had done its job.



> _Absent that, what are the possibilities?
> 
> 1) the on-screen clock could be perfect and only the Manual Recordings would work, the rest of the DVR functions would be an hour off
> 
> OR
> 
> 2) the on-screen clock is an hour off, and the Manual Recordings don't work, but the SP and WL-based recordings work just fine.
> 
> The guys who are unsubbed and use Manual Recordings would prefer scenario #1, but if you are unsubbed, you are not using the Guide Data.
> 
> I use SPs and WLs so I prefer scenario #2. Why is this so difficult to understand? _


People want their standalone Series1 TiVo boxes to be updated to function properly (just as the other models were and just as they were promised in this very thread less than a month ago). Why is this so difficult to understand?



> _I am not going to get into a major snit because two manual recordings (out of over 90 SPs and ARWL) will not work properly._


Good for you. _Your_ preferences aren't sacrosanct.



> _My Guide Data is correct._


The times are correct for Sunday and beyond?



> _Why is it a *major* PITA to have the display clock an hour off for the ordinary subbed TiVo user?_


I've explained above why this would be a big deal to me, and I don't care whether you believe that I'm an "ordinary" user. Everyone is entitled to expect the product to perform within its advertised specifications. One such specification is an accurate clock.



> _For everyday TiVo use, you fire up the TV, you go to Now Playing, you choose the show you want to watch, and you watch it._


No, that's what _you_ do. Please speak for yourself.



> _90% of the time we don't even see the on-screen clock._


Is that the royal "we"?



> _Yes, it is a PITA for the guys running unsubbed. I can understand them being upset. What I can't understand is the attitude of the people who ARE subbed and have manual recordings for stuff like The Daily Show. There are other ways around their problem, which they refuse to use._


How DARE they use their TiVo boxes in a manner that defies your preferences?!



> _Poor planning, maybe. But poor prioritization? On the contrary -- I expect TiVo to take care of the owners of the newer machines first, and the S1 people last. How else could one sell any more new machines?_


I was only referring to the planning as "poor," but the prioritization (however logical) shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. *Every* U.S. TiVo model should have received an update.



> _Edited to add: for those of you bleating *nineteen months* over and over, do you think that TiVo has had nothing else more important to do in those nineteen months?_


Indeed, I believe that TiVo had nothing more important to do than to ensure that its existing customers were properly serviced.


----------



## Rowsdower

Alcatraz said:


> I'm really surprised at the comments about upgrading the software. These things haven't had an upgrade in eons. I bet most of them would never survive the upgrade, and then you'd *really * hear people complaining...even it if was an elective process instead of the usual forced rollout.  I mean, come on, how many threads have you seen where people accused tivo of breaking their box with an upgrade on the _newer _ stuff? The series ones would probably croak.


When a software update kills a TiVo box, this usually means that the hard disk drive was failing (and the previously unused partition happened to be affected first). Barring such a problem (which will cause the unit to die anyway), there's absolutely no reason why a Series1 machine would be less capable than any other model of surviving a software update. Again, TiVo _did_ update the Series1 DirecTV boxes.



> _And for those who have hacked their box, I've seen a few people brag about recovering the backup partition to use for recording space. Those boxes can't take a software upgrade either, but I'm sure the owners wouldn't hesitate to call in to support to complain about it._


It's well understood that users who deliberately disable their recorder's ability to accept software updates are on their own.


----------



## Bill McNeal

Would it be possible to just have the Series 1 box automatically get the correct time with its daily call, or manually change the time (for unsubbed users)?


----------



## dcheesi

Let's face it --TiVo shot themselves in the foot with the whole "lifetime" plan to begin with. Much as I have loved not having to pay a monthly fee, I have to admit that it's not the best sitaution for the company. They're stuck supporting obsolete hardware, without even getting new service revenue to pay for that support. Because it's "lifetime" there's no way for them to simply drop support on these units like any normal provider would have done. I'm sure the S1s would have been cut off entirely by now if it were only about the monthly subscribers...


----------



## Alcatraz

Rowsdower said:


> People with unsubscribed units have as much right as anyone to expect proper operation.


Back when these were first released, they were quite expensive. However, even then it was widely known that the cost was subsized by the subscription. If you didn't buy it in the early days, you definitely got the box for very little money. Tivo makes nothing off of someone without a subscription. Where is this sense of entitlement coming from? How about you subscribe and use the guide?!?! Oh I know, because then you wouldn't get something for free and would have much less to complain about. My bad. 

For early adopters who ponied up a lot of $, they didn't have to pony up even more because it was expected they'd pay a subscription. Early adopters almost always run into the limitation of that technology.

Oh, and your preferences aren't sancrosanct either.


----------



## direfan

Series II and Series III lifetime subs, you now know what is in store for you! I am willing to bet that they did not even attempt a fix. So lifetime really means "not lifetime:. Classless move from a floundering company. Very disappointed! No Series III for me.


----------



## bkc56

While I understand most of the strong feelings expressed in this thread, I don't share them myself. Personally, I'm content (not happy, but I'll live) that the Season Passes will work through the three-week period. My big fear was that those would be broken too forcing me to temporarily program them all manually for that time.

My two Series I boxes have served me well for many year (I'm sure well past what Tivo thought they would be use for). I can live with a bad time display for a few weeks.

I'm not happy about it all, but this one isn't worth a rise in blood-pressure.


----------



## DancnDude

I've largely ignored this thread until today thinking "TiVo always makes things right for their customers" so I didn't follow the thread knowing it would be fixed when the time comes. This is the first time I ever remember TiVo deciding that the User Interface is just not worth the time and giving up on it. 

It's somewhat disappointing since they've gone to great lengths to make sure the UI is correct and works well for users. It's especially disappointing that they are taking money monthly from some people without fixing this problem. 

I would be much more upset if Season Passes didn't work though, the way it is will make it confusing when looking through the guide.


----------



## samo

> Do you think that DirecTV wants to be flooded with support calls and account cancellations from angry subscribers? (I don't know how many standalone Series1 units remain in use, but TiVo is going to find itself fielding some calls of its own in a few days.)


You nailed it. Patch for DST on S1 is not a technical issue, but it is money issue. By TiVo calculations (right or wrong) it will cost them less in support calls and cancellations as to compare to phone download of the software patch. Obviously, DirecTV has an opposite opinion.



> Where is this sense of entitlement coming from?


It comes from the printed manual that came with a $500/14 hours or $1000/30 hour TiVo with software version 1.1 or 1.2. Manual specifically stated that without subscription only manual recording will be available. It changed in Jan 2000, so newer TiVos are door stops without service.


----------



## samo

direfan said:


> Series II and Series III lifetime subs, you now know what is in store for you! I am willing to bet that they did not even attempt a fix. So lifetime really means "not lifetime:. Classless move from a floundering company. Very disappointed! No Series III for me.


The real test for early adaptors of S3 will be implementation of SDV. Since number of S3 users is much less than S1 users, it would be interesting to see if TiVo will do anything at all to remedy the situation. My bet will be on TiVo doing nothing and "apologize for inconvenience".


----------



## Rowsdower

Alcatraz said:


> Back when these were first released, they were quite expensive. However, even then it was widely known that the cost was subsized by the subscription. If you didn't buy it in the early days, you definitely got the box for very little money. Tivo makes nothing off of someone without a subscription. Where is this sense of entitlement coming from?


TiVo originally marketed a product that did _not_ require a subscription to function, and the company explicitly stated (including right here on this website) that unsubscribed owners were entitled to the same downloads as subscribed users. That this may have been an unwise business decision is irrelevant.

Several years ago (before I became a DirecTV subscriber), I operated two Series1 boxes (which was all that existed at the time) unsubscribed. At one point, a software update crippled the manual recording functionality (by removing information from the "Now Playing" list) and increased the frequency of the nag screen from once per day to whenever the menu system was accessed (if memory serves). Many unsubscribed users complained here, and we were immediately attacked for being foolish enough to leave the telephone lines connected and for attempting to "steal" something to which we weren't entitled. This, of course, was complete and utter nonsense; TiVo *advised* unsubscribed users to leave the telephone lines connected for the purpose of setting the clocks and receiving software updates. Eventually, a TiVo representative (TivoPony, if I'm not mistaken) apologized and explained that the problems were due to an oversight, and I believe that they were promptly rectified

Some things never change, however, and I see that there still are posters who believe that unsubscribed users are entitled to no support (despite promises to the contrary).



> _How about you subscribe and use the guide?!?!_


I have "lifetime" service for my DirecTV TiVo boxes (and no longer own any standalone units). As for users of unsubscribed boxes in general, why should they?



> _Oh, and your preferences aren't sancrosanct either._


Of course not. No one's are. That's why everyone has the right to expect their DVRs to function as advertised (no matter how unimportant a particular feature might seem to others).


----------



## Adam1115

Rowsdower said:


> 1. Did Microsoft sell "lifetime" service to its customers? Is Microsoft billing owners of the software in question on a monthly basis? At least Microsoft formally discontinues support for older products (instead of stringing users along and pretending that "support" means sending an e-mail downplaying problems that they refuse to correct).
> 
> 2. Is "other companies failed too" (scare quotes) the best argument that you can come up with? Do you _really_ want to compare TiVo with Microsoft?


You bet your a$$ that people pay microsoft for onisupport!

I'm not talking about older products... check our Outlook's reoccurring calendar entries next week.


----------



## Rottluver

After reading the last 5+ pages of this, I have two thoughts about this.....

1) I am *VERY* glad I got a SAT T60 for DTV and

2) This is "similar" to purchasing a car.....you may or may not use all the functions and options/accesories on it but they are there and are expected to work, regardless of the opinions of others as to whether or not a handful of people (out of over 250 MILLION), in this Country alone, think it is or isn't "ok". :shrug:

Just my $.02


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## Rowsdower

Adam1115 said:


> You bet your a$$ that people pay microsoft for onisupport!
> 
> I'm not talking about older products... check our Outlook's reoccurring calendar entries next week.


Yes, Microsoft evidently screwed up (but didn't abandon paying customers). Microsoft sucks. Again, do you _really_ wish to compare TiVo with Microsoft?


----------



## m.s

It's not like the TiVo will be wrong in any way. 

It will be using xST instead of xDT for time. If it's 6PM EDT, the TiVo will show 5PM EST for a while. So what? They're exactly the same thing. That's not broken, it is cosmetic.

Blame the real cause, the US Congress, and those fools who think that "Saving Time" actually saves time or gives us more hours of daylight. If people want more daylight after work, then work from 8-4 instead of 9-5, and avoid all this foolishness.


----------



## cherry ghost

m.s said:


> It's not like the TiVo will be wrong in any way.
> 
> It will be using xST instead of xDT for time. If it's 6PM EDT, the TiVo will show 5PM EST for a while. So what? They're exactly the same thing. That's not broken, it is cosmetic.
> 
> Blame the real cause, the US Congress, and those fools who think that "Saving Time" actually saves time or gives us more hours of daylight. If people want more daylight after work, then work from 8-4 instead of 9-5, and avoid all this foolishness.


Did you skip over everything in this thread about manual recordings?


----------



## [NG]Owner

TiVo did not break the functionality in question. The US Legislature did.


> Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1, but unfortunately none exist.


It appears that TiVo has tried to fix the manual recording functionality for Series 1 units precipitated by the legislative change. TiVo ultimately determined that no (reasonable) alternate solutions exist to correcting Manual Recordings for Series 1 units. TiVo has, however, provided instructions for a workaround.

That means either:

a) apply the workaround
b) tough it out for 3 weeks in March, and one week in November
c) upgrade to a newer hardware platform for which a more reasonable fix was found
d) switch to another method of time shifting TV
e) stop time shifting TV.

Those are your options. Pick one.

[NG]Owner

P.S. It's not like the Series 2 fix is perfect. What am I going to do on March 2, between 8:00 pm - 2:00 am CT when my own displays will not be correct? Damn you TiVo fix it! Waa, waa, waa....


----------



## m.s

cherry ghost said:


> Did you skip over everything in this thread about manual recordings?


Absolutely not. Did you miss the part where xST and XDT differ by exactly 1 hour? Manual recording will work perfectly, you just need to program them using Standard Time. Deal with it, it's a minor incovenience, but nothing is "broken." Subtracting 1 from xDT to get the xST the TiVo will use for three weeks isn't difficult.


----------



## cherry ghost

m.s said:


> Manual recording will work perfectly, you just need to program them using Standard Time.


And that's the problem, nothing should have to be reprogrammed.


----------



## Rowsdower

[NG]Owner said:


> TiVo did not break the functionality in question. The US Legislature did.


As strongly as I oppose the extension of DST, it was TiVo's responsibility to address the resultant software issue.



> _It appears that TiVo has tried to fix the manual recording functionality for Series 1 units precipitated by the legislative change._


The engineers had 19 months to work on this, but it appears that they waited until the last minute.



> _TiVo has, however, provided instructions for a workaround._


Is there a workaround that restores full functionality?



> _Those are your options. Pick one._


You say that as though people have no right to complain and should be grateful that TiVo even bothered to let us know that the update promise of less than a month ago has been broken.



> _It's not like the Series 2 fix is perfect. What am I going to do on March 2, between 8:00 pm - 2:00 am CT when my own displays will not be correct? Damn you TiVo fix it! Waa, waa, waa...._


Mockery is unhelpful.


----------



## Rowsdower

m.s said:


> Did you miss the part where xST and XDT differ by exactly 1 hour? Manual recording will work perfectly, you just need to program them using Standard Time.


For some people, that means reprogramming dozens of recurring manual recordings four times per year.



> _Deal with it, it's a minor incovenience, but nothing is "broken."_


...except, of course, for all of those recurring manual recordings. And the ability to search for and record programs by the correct times.



> _Subtracting 1 from xDT to get the xST the TiVo will use for three weeks isn't difficult._


I suspect that my grandmother would disagree. (Fortunately, she has a DirecTV model.) TiVo is supposed to make television viewing _more_ convenient, not less. Even crude VCRs can easily have their clocks fixed.


----------



## mathwhiz

btwyx said:


> I got an email about DST and the Series 1 this evening.


I believe that the contents of this email should be sent as a message to all Series 1 TiVo users. (and related messages to Series 2 owners and Series 3 owners) so that everyone knows what to expect. Most TiVo users do not read these forums and they deserve to be told this information. That's my biggest gripe with TiVo on this, is you have information that will save users problems, let them know.


----------



## timckelley

classicsat said:


> They already gave that offer. Not their fault you chose not to take them up on it, or chose to get a Series 1 after that offer passed and they stated Series 1 development ceased. Ant they are providing most of the service still.


When? I'm guess it was before I bought my series 1. I just lifetimed it last year just before they cut off lifetime as an option (I bought it used off of ebay, and initially left it unsubbed.) When I subscribed to service last year, I thought service included having an accurate local clock. That was the impression I had. I was not aware of any option to upgrade to series 2.

I agree 19 months is long time to not succeed if giving us a patch. At this point, if they would offer to let us transfer our lifetime to a series 2, even if I had to pay to get the box, I'd take them up on the offer. It'd be nice if they either offer this, or at least fix the clock problems by this fall.


----------



## [NG]Owner

Rowsdower said:


> As strongly as I oppose the extension of DST, it was TiVo's responsibility to address the resultant software issue.


To the extent they are able. Let's be realistic here. I'll concede that the problem is fixable. TiVo could replace the unit altogether.

On the flip side, you should concede that there's also the possiblity that the cost to fix the problem, which also includes recoding the software to function correctly _for manual recordings_, _could_ cost more than the aggregate benefit realized. Most certainly in the case of replacing the hardware it _definately_ would.

It's quite possible that TiVo made a business decision not to fix (support) DST for manual recordings in Series 1 because of the cost benefit ratio. Happens all the time. Intuit Quicken for example.


Rowsdower said:


> The engineers had 19 months to work on this, but it appears that they waited until the last minute.


If timing the initiation of work on the DST functionality was an issue, I'm sure your problem will be solved by November, or at the latest by next March, should the new DST rules be extended. After all, now the engineers know that the fix it isn't as easy as they may have been led to believe. You may say they got started late. I say no one fully realized the difficulty. Glass half empty ... glass half full.



Rowsdower said:


> You say that as though people have no right to complain and should be grateful that TiVo even bothered to let us know that the update promise of less than a month ago has been broken.


I appreciate that you don't like the outcome, but complaining about it won't change anything. There is no malice in TiVo's decision. There was either:

a) a miscalculation on the amount of time a fix would take to produce, or
b) a schrewd calculation as to a class of customers' worth (customers with Series 1 PVRs that use an abundance of manual recordings) in relation to the cost of a fix to keep that class of customers happy for an aggregate of four weeks.



Rowsdower said:


> Mockery is unhelpful.


Insofar as complaining about it makes you feel good, I guess mocking those who complain makes me feel good. So, you keep complaining and I'll keep mocking. That way we'll both feel better!

[NG]Owner


----------



## timckelley

murgatroyd said:


> Disappointing, yes -- but this is not a major PITA, except to the guys who are running unsubbed.
> 
> Jan


Before last last year, I was unsubbed and everything was a manual recording, or a manual repeating recording. Were I still in that situation, I'd have to delete all SPs, and reschedule them, and then a few weeks later, delete them again, and reschedule. Sounds like a PITA. That again, by not subscribing, I guess beggars can't be choosers. So I guess there's not a lot of grounds for complaint 

But I'm currently subscribed to my series 1, and so I feel I do have a legitimate beef with this.


----------



## timckelley

[NG]Owner said:


> It's quite possible that TiVo made a business decision not to fix (support) DST for manual recordings in Series 1 because of the cost benefit ratio. Happens all the time. Intuit Quicken for example.


The difference there is Quicken forces you to upgrade every 3 years or lose features (i.e. downloading of transactions/quotes).

In this case, TiVo is not giving us the option of ugrading. I would happily upgrade to a series 2 (even pay the price of the new box), if I were allowed to transfer my lifetime sub to it.


----------



## TiVoJerry

mathwhiz said:


> I believe that the contents of this email should be sent as a message to all Series 1 TiVo users. (and related messages to Series 2 owners and Series 3 owners) so that everyone knows what to expect. Most TiVo users do not read these forums and they deserve to be told this information. That's my biggest gripe with TiVo on this, is you have information that will save users problems, let them know.


mathwhiz, as you know from my post in this thread, to which you've posted a response, I stated:

_We will also be sending Pre-TiVo Central Messaging to the DTV platforms this week, S2 units twice this week, and the S1 units will receive a weekly reminder during the first three weeks of the new DST schedule. We're also sending out email to all addresses on file that are attached to an account with a S1 unit._

Our engineers continued to investigate & test all possibilities up to the last moment before messaging could be given to the public. I'd have loved to message this sooner, but the message might've changed. People don't seem to take kindly to changing messages unless it's for the better.

I apologize for not including the PTCM statement in this thread earlier.


----------



## timckelley

I have not received an email about this, nor any message on my series one TiVo yet, and we're only 2 days away from this happening. This thread, which I only first found today (less than an hour ago in fact), is how I found out.


----------



## TiVoJerry

timckelley said:


> I have not received an email about this


Do we have a current email attached to the account for your Series1?



timckelley said:


> nor any message on my series one TiVo yet, and we're only 2 days away from this happening. This thread, which I only first found today (less than an hour ago in fact), is how I found out.


The PTCM was auth'd yesterday afternoon. You will receive it the next time your S1 calls in to get it.


----------



## jsmeeker

I can't wait until this forum gets flooded with complaints about the presence of a PTCM. You know it's gonna happen. 

I'll have the popcorn ready.


----------



## Bill McNeal

Is this problem for S1 customers going to recur this fall, and twice per year in the future, or will there be continued efforts for a fix?


----------



## jsmeeker

Bill McNeal said:


> Is this problem for S1 customers going to recur this fall, and twice per year in the future, or will there be continued efforts for a fix?


I would expect so. In the fall, it will only last a week.

Will it happen twice per year in the future? Probably. Unless Congress changes its mind. If they do, we get to go through the patching/adjusting thing all over again.


----------



## Opusnbill7

TivoJerry,

While I hope I'm wrong, this appears to be the beginning of the end for the S1's. Products age, and eventually support becomes prohibitively expensive to provide, and that is understandable.

However, given that the S1's (and S2's and S3's) have lifetime subscriptions, I believe you may now have a problem if that is the case. Whether or not you want to call it a "cosmetic" issue or not, it really goes deeper than that. You are forcing S1 users to re-configure every manual recording they have, as well as leading to confusion for S1 users until DST hits its "original" date. While most users here are probably pretty savvy and will be able to figure it out and will just be irritated, some won't, and that's really not fair. 

No one likes new DST dates, and it is causing problems in many industries. Blame congress if you want someone to blame. However, we all have to deal with it. In the case of Tivo, saying "we just can't do it...sorry!" isn't really an acceptable answer for those of us with a lifetime subscription. 

So, let me offer a suggestion. The S2 has surely been reduced in cost to almost nothing for Tivo to produce considering how long it has been out and how much component/build costs should have decreased over time. Offer the S1 lifetime users a FREE S2 with a FREE transfer to the new box, force the monthly users to an S2 (at the same monthly rate, no new contract or anything like that...basically the same terms they're under now), and tell the unsubbed users that there will be no more support. They can still use it like a VCR, even if they have to "think around" the clock. Or, better yet, as a last "bone", send them an update that allows them to set their own clock (like you can on a VCR). Along with all of these, state that you are ending S1 support and if you don't take the offer, then sorry, but tough luck you're on your own.

Maybe this is already being discussed. I hope that Tivo is going to do something. I was *this* close to purchasing an S3 during the last upgrade, but unfortunately the cost was prohibitive. Right now, even the *poorly supported* TWC DVR that the local cable co. provides will be correct on sunday. Some of us lifetime S1 users have been your most vocal supporters and evangelists from the beginning. Please don't leave us hanging as we may remember it when we DO decide to upgrade off of our S1's...


----------



## timckelley

TiVoJerry said:


> Do we have a current email attached to the account for your Series1?


Oh, I just now checked my email, and you all just sent me one this afternoon on this.


----------



## Rowsdower

[NG]Owner said:


> To the extent they are able. Let's be realistic here. I'll concede that the problem is fixable. TiVo could replace the unit altogether.


There's no reason why that would be necessary.



> _On the flip side, you should concede that there's also the possiblity that the cost to fix the problem, which also includes recoding the software to function correctly for manual recordings, could cost more than the aggregate benefit realized._


Firstly, only one underlying issue exists: incorrect local offsets from GMT/UTC caused by incorrect DST start/end dates.

Secondly, a lack of cost-effectiveness is _not_ a valid excuse. TiVo chose to adopt a particular business model and made associated commitments to its customers (many of whom continue to pay money on a monthly basis). I'd like to think that TiVo has been honest in its public correspondence (the claims that an attempt was made), appreciates its customers and recognizes the long-term value of subscriber satisfaction, so I'll give the company the benefit of the doubt by assuming that this was simply a screw-up (not a deliberate decision).



> _If timing the initiation of work on the DST functionality was an issue, I'm sure your problem will be solved by November, or at the latest by next March, should the new DST rules be extended._


Again, this isn't my problem. (I no longer own any standalone TiVo units.) But yeah, I certainly hope that the engineers remain hard at work on a solution.



> _I appreciate that you don't like the outcome, but complaining about it won't change anything._


How do you know that? In the previous instance that I cited, complaints posted on this website directly led to the problematic issues' resolution. And just as in the current instance, the affected parties had to deal with posters who attacked them and asserted that they had no right to complain.



> _There is no malice in TiVo's decision._


I haven't claimed otherwise. I love TiVo. I don't, however, believe that they can do no wrong.



> _There was either:
> 
> a) a miscalculation on the amount of time a fix would take to produce, or
> b) a schrewd calculation as to a class of customers' worth (customers with Series 1 PVRs that use an abundance of manual recordings) in relation to the cost of a fix to keep that class of customers happy for an aggregate of four weeks._


I sincerely hope (and choose to assume) that the former is closer to the truth. I can't bring myself to believe that TiVo would turn its back on loyal customers (which would also make TiVoStephen and TiVoJerry liars). No, I refuse to accept that.


----------



## parzec

Notice how Tivo binds people with service contracts and extorts huge termination penalties for early cancellation. But when Tivo effectively cancels its lifetime contract to provide service and support to Series 1 people, they don't offer them a cent. Hypocrites.

I love my Tivo, but this company can't be trusted.


----------



## classicsat

timckelley said:


> When? I'm guess it was before I bought my series 1.
> I just lifetimed it last year just before they cut off lifetime as an option (I bought it used off of ebay, and initially left it unsubbed.) When I subscribed to service last year, I thought service included having an accurate local clock. That was the impression I had. I was not aware of any option to upgrade to series 2.


They offered Lifetime tranfers to a Series 2 for a short time after the Series 2 platform was lauched. Some time after that, they probably casually stated they would no longer update the Series 1 software.

The service updates the system clock (in UTC), so guide based recordings work. There is so much they can do with the clock setting routine, which part of is software running on your box, software they probably wouldn't be updating when you made that decision to purchase Lifetime for it.


----------



## classicsat

logic88 said:


> I think people here would be a little more understanding if TiVo explained why it was so hard to make a patch. All of my other Linux systems has had a patch for months now. What makes the S1 so different from the other units?


Your Linux systems are full PCs, maybe with newer kernel, or an open development platform.

None are small nearly 10 year old closed hardware platforms only they can write software for, and that have been supplanted by a new hardware platform based on a different architecture.


----------



## Opusnbill7

parzec said:


> Notice how Tivo binds people with service contracts and extorts huge termination penalties for early cancellation. But when Tivo effectively cancels its lifetime contract to provide service and support to Series 1 people, they don't offer them a cent. Hypocrites.
> 
> I love my Tivo, but this company can't be trusted.


That's pretty harsh. Tivo has chosen to follow the "cell phone" model, where they require a contract with termination penalties if you don't follow through, in order to get a much cheaper (free?) box. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you're upfront about the contract details.

Also, Tivo hasn't "effectively canceled" their lifetime contract. They just may be *somewhat* in breach of it (but IANAL so who knows?) Regardless, that assessment is pretty harsh to call them Hypocrites and can't be trusted. So far, Tivo has shown itself to be one of the best companies to deal with, and very trustworthy. I hope (and as of right now have faith) that they will do *something* to make it right with their lifetime S1 users. What that will be, I don't know...but I offered a suggestion I hope they'll follow earlier....


----------



## parzec

Opusnbill7 said:


> Also, Tivo hasn't "effectively canceled" their lifetime contract. They just may be *somewhat* in breach of it (but IANAL so who knows?)


Just saying, if I all of a sudden I started making partial payments each month to Tivo during a contact period and were "somewhat in breech", they wouldn't just accept my "applogy for the inconvenience" they would extract the money out of me somehow. Yet, Tivo expects these Series 1 users to just accept their "partial breech" without consequences? It seems like a double standard, and that is why I label them hypocritical.



Opusnbill7 said:


> I hope (and as of right now have faith) that they will do *something* to make it right with their lifetime S1 users. What that will be, I don't know...but I offered a suggestion I hope they'll follow earlier


I made the same suggestion very early on in this thread. I really think, though, that Tivo is too strapped for money to afford to do what they know is the right thing to do for its customers.


----------



## imadork

I'm disappointed by this. I expected better from TiVo. Maybe I'm weird, but I expect my consumer electronics to last more than a few years without having incompatablity problems. It certainly reinforces my decision to not spend $1000 to upgrade to a Series III when I can't count on TiVo to support their hardware fully for more than a few years, and I'll think twice before buying new TiVo hardware now.

But I do understand how difficult the fix might be. My crusty S1 TiVo still has a shell open on it. From what I can tell, the TiVo stores its' internal time as GMT/UTC, but doesn't use the Linux concept of timezones at all. Whatever applications deal with the system time must provide its own offset. This is probably why the fix is so hard -- if it really is structured this way, then the fix is more than just tweaking a system offset, it might involve recompiling every binary that deals with system time. IF there were a way I could manually adjust the time in the shell, I'd be OK with that, but I'm not sure if that is possible.

Bummer. I guess I'll just deal with the inconvenience while I spend the time to research what the new PVR options are.


----------



## jblake

TiVoJerry said:


> Our engineers continued to investigate & test all possibilities up to the last moment


Time to get some new engineers. If you're blaming it on the fact that it's too hard, then your programming team is incompetent and should be fired...period. I know that's not the real reason, so you should be honest with us and not spin this. Tell us you didn't think it was worth the time and money.

I'm sad to say that because of other business decisions by Tivo and this action, which is the straw that broke my back, my S2DT will be my last Tivo-branded DVR, which is sad. I had a Series 1 Stand alone and 3 DirecTivos prior to my S2DT. It takes talent to break customer loyalty like that.


----------



## n548gxg

imadork said:


> Bummer. I guess I'll just deal with the inconvenience while I spend the time to research what the new PVR options are.


I have a Series I Tivo and was planning to buy the latest and greatest Tivo when this one stopped working but I will not buy a Tivo again.

I have a lifetime subscription but also do manual recording because of the 'Daily show' problem. Now I must modify the recording four times a year. The lineup will be an hour off when I use it as a guide. This is not a minor problem.

I can not in good faith buy a product from a company that will not support its users.


----------



## Alcatraz

jblake said:


> I'm sad to say that because of other business decisions by Tivo and this action, which is the straw that broke my back, my S2DT will be my last Tivo-branded DVR, which is sad. I had a Series 1 Stand alone and 3 DirecTivos prior to my S2DT. It takes talent to break customer loyalty like that.


Isn't it that it really took DTV not allowing networking capability and then Congress "broke" your Series1? Tivo didn't "break" anything here, they're just saying it wasn't feasible to make a fix.

They're _not _ even saying they _won't _ be able to fix it later....to be fair, they're not saying anything about that at all....but still, why aren't people taking all this anger and writing to their congress rep? :up:  :up:

And for those of you complaining, do you use manual recordings? If not, it's a friggin' display issue for three weeks. If you're smart enough to post on a forum, you're smart enough to know that the program will get recorded. You won't miss your show.

It's an 8 year old computer.....how many of you are complaining this loudly about the lack of support for Win98 or Millennium Edition? Or are you still using a 486 and playing video on Atari (why aren't there new games for this)?

And to be clear, there hasn't been any announcement that this is the end of life for S1. There's still "support" in that the box still works, you are now just stuck with a workaround (again, thank you congress  ) but it still does its job......recording programs. I'm sure when the time comes to drop series one entirely, they won't just shut everyone out....at least not without some kinda transfer program......I hope, maybe I'm speculating a little too wildly here.....that oughta be enough mudstirrin' for now.


----------



## timckelley

classicsat said:


> They offered Lifetime tranfers to a Series 2 for a short time after the Series 2 platform was lauched. Some time after that, they probably casually stated they would no longer update the Series 1 software.


Well yes, they don't have to update our software, but they do have to keep giving us guide data, and (I would hope) keep our TiVos usable.

Question: Suppose hypothetically a dormant bug suddenly popped up, making the TiVo unusable. Suppose that if they don't fix the bug, no shows at all could be recorded. Remembering that many of us have lifetime subscriptions on our series 1, and many other of us are paying $13 / month, wouldn't they be bound to fix this bug, lest we lose 100% use of our TiVos?

I admit I don't know the answer to this question. True, it's an unsupported product. But they are collecting our money for it. Perhaps the money only binds them to give us guide data and nothing more.

Anyway, if they are bound to solve bugs and keep our TiVo software usable, then maybe they should be bound to fix daylight savings time as well, since it is effectively a bug, though admittedly a bug they themselves did not create. It's a bug that affects usability of the TiVo.


----------



## timckelley

Also, by the way, has anybody at TiVo announced whether this new DST bug is going to stay permanently on our machines, or do they intend to eventually fix it? If the latter, any announcment on an EST of the fix?

If no intention to ever fix, I imagine this will not sit well, but IANAL, and AFAIK we have no recourse against this.


----------



## Arcady

Rowsdower said:


> Even crude VCRs can easily have their clocks fixed.


My Sony VHS Hi-Fi recorder has a clock that ended on December 31, 2005 and started over in 1990. Where do I get a firmware update?


----------



## GoHokies!

jblake said:


> Time to get some new engineers. If you're blaming it on the fact that it's too hard, then your programming team is incompetent and should be fired...period. I know that's not the real reason, so you should be honest with us and not spin this. Tell us you didn't think it was worth the time and money.
> 
> I'm sad to say that because of other business decisions by Tivo and this action, which is the straw that broke my back, my S2DT will be my last Tivo-branded DVR, which is sad. I had a Series 1 Stand alone and 3 DirecTivos prior to my S2DT. It takes talent to break customer loyalty like that.


If it were really that easy, why don't you just code up a solution to the problem. You've got plenty of time to get it done, then when congress doesn't renew this debacle (or makes changes to the dates) we get to go through this whole mess again.

Of course, since it is so easy for you, that won't be a problem, right? 

You people need to realize that Tivo, inc isn't out to personally ruin your lives, mmkay?


----------



## Rowsdower

Alcatraz said:


> Tivo didn't "break" anything here, they're just saying it wasn't feasible to make a fix.


No, they're saying that they failed to finish one in time (despite last month's promise to the contrary). Perhaps if they hadn't waited until the last minute, this wouldn't have occurred.



> _They're not  even saying they won't  be able to fix it later....to be fair, they're not saying anything about that at all....but still, why aren't people taking all this anger and writing to their congress rep?_


I did that before and after the _Energy Policy Act of 2005_ bill was voted on.



> _It's an 8 year old computer.....how many of you are complaining this loudly about the lack of support for Win98 or Millennium Edition?_


How many users of Windows 98 or Millennium Edition paid for "lifetime service"? How many are paying monthly fees to Microsoft?


----------



## Adam1115

Rowsdower said:


> Yes, Microsoft evidently screwed up (but didn't abandon paying customers). Microsoft sucks. Again, do you _really_ wish to compare TiVo with Microsoft?


Can you please just cancel your TiVo subscription since you're so unhappy and replace it with a non TiVo DST proof DVR??


----------



## Rowsdower

Adam1115 said:


> Can you please just cancel your TiVo subscription since you're so unhappy and replace it with a non TiVo DST proof DVR??


Again, I no longer own any standalone TiVo units. I have DirecTV models (and a "lifetime" subscription). This issue doesn't affect me.

That's a heck of an attitude, though.


----------



## GoHokies!

Rowsdower said:


> Again, I no longer own any standalone TiVo units. I have DirecTV models (and a "lifetime" subscription). This issue doesn't affect me.
> 
> That's a heck of an attitude, though.


You mean encouraging people to do something that makes a difference, rather than mindlessly ***** about something they can't change?

That's a heck of an attitude, indeed!!! if a few more people had it, maybe we wouldn't be in this situation (and the world would be a much better place to live!).


----------



## SnakeEyes

I'm annoyed by the "VCR like" comment, as if we are not using out TiVo properly. I HAVE to use manual recordings for plenty of my shows since the guide data does not properly handle new/repeat for numerous nightly shows.


----------



## n548gxg

Alcatraz said:


> They're _not _ even saying they _won't _ be able to fix it later....to be fair, they're not saying anything about that at all....but still, why aren't people taking all this anger and writing to their congress rep? :up:  :up:


Because I didnt pay Congress $299 for a lifetime subscription. They advertised this product as something to "make my life easier". Tivo has now failed me on that promise.


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## n548gxg

Adam1115 said:


> Can you please just cancel your TiVo subscription since you're so unhappy and replace it with a non TiVo DST proof DVR??


What is the number for me to call to get my lifetime subscription back?


----------



## Rowsdower

GoHokies! said:


> You mean encouraging people to do something that makes a difference, rather than mindlessly ***** about something they can't change?
> 
> That's a heck of an attitude, indeed!!! if a few more people had it, maybe we wouldn't be in this situation (and the world would be a much better place to live!).


Huh? What are you talking about?


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## LoadStar

TiVo - this is unacceptable. When I turn on my TV at 7:00 - I want it to show that it's 7:00, and programs that it shows at 8:00 I expect to be able to watch at 8:00. I should not have to do mental arithmetic every time I want to watch a program live. 

You might call it a cosmetic issue - but when my parents, proud owners of a Series 1 unit, look ahead in the guide data and they see something they want to watch live at 10:00 - they will be thoroughly confused when the program doesn't actually come on at 10:00 like they expected.

Anything that affects the core functionality, the guide data, is NOT a cosmetic issue. It is a functionality issue. You had 19 months to fix it, and I fail to comprehend how you can find it that difficult to come up with an issue. I don't think ANYONE here buys your excuse that you can't do it - you just chose not to.

I would second the suggestion that if you feel it is that difficult to solve the issues with the series 1 units, that you recall ALL working series 1 units and replace them with series 2 units, in a like subscription state (unsubscribed working S1's are exchanged for unsubscribed working S2's; monthly for monthly, and lifetime for lifetime.)


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## MScottC

The thing that amazes me, given that TiVo was developed as we were all approaching Y2K and the craziness around that; Why didn't the original programmers put in programming hooks for DST changes? I know changes to DST don't happen that often, but they have occurred other times in this country's history. I have Palm OS apps that have a database fore each timezone's DST rules, and found instruction to change it. TiVo could have done the same 9 years ago, and this would have been a very simple issue to deal with.


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## Adam1115

Rowsdower said:


> Again, I no longer own any standalone TiVo units. I have DirecTV models (and a "lifetime" subscription). This issue doesn't affect me.
> 
> That's a heck of an attitude, though.


You're pretty wound up over something that doesn't affect you...



n548gxg said:


> What is the number for me to call to get my lifetime subscription back?


Considering we were discuss people that were paying monthly fee's, there obviously isn't one.

But I'm pretty certain you'll get at least the $199 you paid for lifetime back if you put it on ebay..


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## SnakeEyes

Adam1115 said:


> But I'm pretty certain you'll get at least the $199 you paid for lifetime back if you put it on ebay..


And that clears TiVo in all this.. how?


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## LoadStar

Digg this story:
http://www.digg.com/gadgets/TiVo_Series_1_units_to_get_no_March_11_daylight_saving_time_support


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## n548gxg

Adam1115 said:


> You're pretty wound up over something that doesn't affect you...
> 
> Considering we were discuss people that were paying monthly fee's, there obviously isn't one.
> 
> But I'm pretty certain you'll get at least the $199 you paid for lifetime back if you put it on ebay..


I do not sell broken stuff on Ebay. I am ethical.


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## GoHokies!

n548gxg said:


> I do not sell broken stuff on Ebay. I am ethical.


You lifetime subscription isn't broken.

Neither is the hardware.

Nothing unethical about that.


----------



## n548gxg

GoHokies! said:


> You lifetime subscription isn't broken.
> 
> Neither is the hardware.
> 
> Nothing unethical about that.


Oh, I should not mention the software issue. Please, the last thing I need is some body emailing me, paypal etc about TIVO software that is not working.

It is as unethical as selling your car to a teenager because you know the transmission is going.


----------



## GoHokies!

n548gxg said:


> Oh, I should not mention the software issue. Please, the last thing I need is some body emailing me, paypal etc about TIVO software that is not working.
> 
> It is as unethical as selling your car to a teenager because you know the transmission is going.


When did anyone say that? 

Stop putting words in my mouth. You still have plenty of value left in what you have, even if you don't think so.


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## n548gxg

The root of the problem is as follows:

I paid approx. $300 for my Tivo in 2001
I paid $199 for lifetime in 2001.

Tivo has not received any money from me in 5 1/2 years. Thus they do not care about me.

Who would pay $200 for a six year old Tivo? I would not.

If Tivo wants to throw out a customer's good feeling towards them, that is their choice.

I used to recommend Tivo to my friends. I showed it to them when they came over. I pointed out that after six years, I have had no problems with it. It is working great. Now I can not recommend it.

Now when my friends come over, I will show them the guide with the incorrect time. We will laugh at Tivo's technical abilities.


----------



## spankspank

timckelley said:


> Also, by the way, has anybody at TiVo announced whether this new DST bug is going to stay permanently on our machines, or do they intend to eventually fix it? If the latter, any announcment on an EST of the fix?
> 
> If no intention to ever fix, I imagine this will not sit well, but IANAL, and AFAIK we have no recourse against this.


This reminds me of situation I experienced in the early 90's in one of my first jobs. I installed and supported a Unix accounting application. Users would call us and point out bugs that existed. Our team would ask the developer to fix the bugs but he never did. He would get testy and deny or defend the bugs or just make silly excuses why he couldn't fix them. What he didn't reveal for a couple years was that portions of source code had been lost and he could no longer build the application as it existed in the field. He was spending all his time rewriting the lost code and later gave up in frustration.


----------



## Rowsdower

Adam1115 said:


> You're pretty wound up over something that doesn't affect you...


It affects a number of friends and relatives, most of whom purchased their Series1 TiVo units on my recommendation. Just last month, I advised my sister (to whom I gave my two boxes when I switched to DirecTV) that this matter would be resolved (because I took TiVoStephen at his word).


----------



## Rowsdower

GoHokies! said:


> You criticized Adam's attitude. I stated that it was your attitude that sucked, and that if more people did something about the problem (vote with their wallets and get another DVR) then things would be better.


1. How does complaining in a forum read by high-level TiVo employees (one of whom promised a software fix less than a month ago) "suck"? As I noted, this is precisely what led TiVo to resolve some previous Series1 problems.

2. How would an owner of an unsubscribed or "lifetime"-subscribed Series1 standalone unit send TiVo a message (other than "you win") by going away quietly and no longer draining the company's resources?

3. You _do_ realize that Adam was essentially telling me to shut up (not seriously suggesting a TiVo boycott or any other form of protest), don't you? That's why your response left me puzzled.



> _I'm sorry, I'll use smaller words next time._


There's no need for such rudeness.


----------



## samo

Adam1115 said:


> You're pretty wound up over something that doesn't affect you...


And how does it affect you? Are you TiVo stockholder? Why are you defending TiVo when it is painfully obvious that TiVo is in the wrong.


----------



## Adam1115

samo said:


> And how does it affect you? Are you TiVo stockholder? Why are you defending TiVo when it is painfully obvious that TiVo is in the wrong.


I'm not defending tivo, I just don't get the big deal....


----------



## jsmeeker

I have a series 1 TiVo. Paid lifetime service on it, too. It will continue to work exactly like it has for close to 6 years. I don't see the big deal either. Sure, it's gonna look odd if I pay attention to the times, but stuff will record like it's supposed to. I won't miss a thing.


----------



## LoadStar

jsmeeker said:


> I have a series 1 TiVo. Paid lifetime service on it, too. It will continue to work exactly like it has for close to 6 years. I don't see the big deal either. Sure, it's gonna look odd if I pay attention to the times, but stuff will record like it's supposed to. I won't miss a thing.


Having to change all manual recordings twice, first on March 11, and again on April 1, is very annoying.

Having to try to explain to my parents, who are getting up in age, that the stuff that they see coming on at 9:00 isn't actually on at 9:00, is downright irritating.

The fact that they were able to develop patches for all other TiVos except the S1's is really, REALLY annoying.


----------



## btwyx

n548gxg said:


> manual recording because of the 'Daily show' problem.


Strangly enough I just noticed the Daily Show's had its guide data fixed for the last 3 or 4 days.


----------



## logic88

classicsat said:


> Your Linux systems are full PCs, maybe with newer kernel, or an open development platform.
> 
> None are small nearly 10 year old closed hardware platforms only they can write software for, and that have been supplanted by a new hardware platform based on a different architecture.


AFAIK, the "patches" that my Linux systems received were new zoneinfo files. No kernel changes or compiling was needed. So if TiVo decided to not use zoneinfo files but to use an internal offset instead, I would be interested to hear what the reasoning was behind that decision.


----------



## logic88

Alcatraz said:


> It's an 8 year old computer.....how many of you are complaining this loudly about the lack of support for Win98 or Millennium Edition? Or are you still using a 486 and playing video on Atari (why aren't there new games for this)?


I don't think Microsoft offered a lifetime subscription with each copy of Windows 98.

And while I don't have a Win98 box handy to check, I'm pretty sure TZEDIT will work with 98, 98SE, and ME.


----------



## IHDB

jsmeeker said:


> I have a series 1 TiVo. Paid lifetime service on it, too. It will continue to work exactly like it has for close to 6 years. I don't see the big deal either. Sure, it's gonna look odd if I pay attention to the times, but stuff will record like it's supposed to. I won't miss a thing.


I'm with you! I've never been too motivated to post on the internet about my Tivo (heck, I just use the thing!) but I'm amazed at the amount of hostility here towards anyone that doesn't agree that this is the end of the world. Yes, the few manual recordings that I have are going to be screwed up and the time is going to be an hour off, but that's a small inconvenience - anyone that claims otherwise has a serious case of missing priorities. At least you have a TV to watch and a roof to put it under and food to eat! In the grand scheme of things, this isn't the huge deal that you make it out to be...


----------



## Rowsdower

IHDB said:


> I've never been too motivated to post on the internet about my Tivo (heck, I just use the thing!) but I'm amazed at the amount of hostility here towards anyone that doesn't agree that this is the end of the world.


I'm amazed at the amount of hostility toward people with the audacity to complain about malfunctions in a product that they paid money for (and that some continue to pay money for).

No one is saying that it's "the end of the world," but this is a forum in which to discuss TiVo (an inherently unimportant topic "in the grand scheme of things"). If you wish to discuss matters such as global warming and world hunger, please look elsewhere.


----------



## IHDB

Rowsdower said:


> I'm amazed at the amount of hostility toward people with the audacity to complain about malfunctions in a product that they paid money for (and that some continue to pay money for).
> 
> No one is saying that it's "the end of the world," but this is a forum in which to discuss TiVo (an inherently unimportant topic "in the grand scheme of things"). If you wish to discuss matters such as global warming and world hunger, please look elsewhere.


Wow, amazing - the one guy I was talking about in particular comes back and immediately goes on the attack, big surprise!

There certainly wasn't any hostility intended from me, and I don't see really all that much from any of the other posters either. I don't really give a s#$t about global warming or hunger (or really my Tivo either), I was just pointing out that it was people like you (that aren't even affected) that are blowing things way out of proportion. How about you dial things back a bit and let this conversation be a little more civil? (and maybe leave it for the people that ARE affected to give their opinions)


----------



## Rowsdower

IHDB said:


> Wow, amazing - the one guy I was talking about in particular comes back and immediately goes on the attack, big surprise!


I'm not attacking you.



> _There certainly wasn't any hostility intended from me,_


Nor from me.



> _and I don't see really all that much from any of the other posters either._


I do. Some possess the attitude that any negative criticism of TiVo is blasphemous and should be silenced.

It's perfectly understandable that some people perceive this issue as nothing more than a minor inconvenience, but others (whose situations may vary) are entitled to disagree and express their frustrations. No one should be told to shut up.



> _I don't really give a s#$t about global warming or hunger (or really my Tivo either), I was just pointing out that it was people like you (that aren't even affected) that are blowing things way out of proportion._


And I was just pointing out that this is a TiVo forum. *You* are the one who compared this matter to the importance of having shelter and food, and I'm explaining that _none_ of this board's discussions pertain to anything important "in the grand scheme of things" (again, your words).



> _How about you dial things back a bit and let this conversation be a little more civil?_


How have I been uncivil? I'm been mocked by more than one poster (not you), but I haven't acted in kind.



> _ (and maybe leave it for the people that ARE affected to give their opinions)_


As someone who's sung TiVo's praises for years, I have the right to express my opinion when the company acts in a manner of which I disapprove. (So does anyone else, for that matter.)

As someone who had to deal with his cranky sister (to whom he gave two standalone Series1 TiVo units) last night, I'm officially "affected" by this now. (And I'll be breaking the news to other friends and relatives later today.) I persuaded many people to purchase these boxes (with the promise that they'd never have to deal with this sort of problem), and now I have to eat some crow.


----------



## n548gxg

logic88 said:


> I don't think Microsoft offered a lifetime subscription with each copy of Windows 98.


I have windows XP. I can set the clock on my PC in a second and all will be fine. Thus windows is no big deal to me. If I could reset my clock on Tivo so that my manual and season passes work, it would be no big deal to me. But I can not.

Tivo has really let me down. I thought Tivo was on the cutting edge of technology. Now I find out that Tivo can not handle a simple time change.

What a letdown. Next time I will buy a generic DVR. Then I will not expect too much.


----------



## hornblowercat

While I sympathize with Series 1 owners, I kind of look at it like asking for support on a computer that's 7 years old. How long is the company required to support this?

Still as I said I see your point. If I had a series 1 I would not be happy at all.

When I had the cable DVR every time there was a time change things were really bazaar. The schedule would properly adjust for any day time recordings but all prime time recordings had to be canceled and rescheduled.

PIA for sure which is why I'm glad I have the S3 but if you have an S1 that's probably what your looking at.


----------



## n548gxg

hornblowercat said:


> While I sympathize with Series 1 owners, I kind of look at it like asking for support on a computer that's 7 years old. How long is the company required to support this?(


As long as the company is getting revenue from Series I owners.


----------



## Rowsdower

hornblowercat said:


> While I sympathize with Series 1 owners, I kind of look at it like asking for support on a computer that's 7 years old.


Again, TiVo sold "lifetime" service to some people and is continually billing others.



> _When I had the cable DVR every time there was a time change things were really bazaar. The schedule would properly adjust for any day time recordings but all prime time recordings had to be canceled and rescheduled._


That's part of what makes this issue so frustrating. There are plenty of bad DVRs out there, and I believe that TiVo is the best DVR on the market. When posters tell others to cancel their TiVo service and switch to a different DVR if they're unhappy, they're missing the point. We're not here to bash TiVo; we're here because we love TiVo (and hate most of the alternatives) and want to see it remain the best DVR available. We want to see TiVo, Inc. succeed, and we recognize an issue that threatens to damage the company's reputation. That's a bad thing for all TiVo enthusiasts, regardless of our personal opinions on this matter.


----------



## dstoffa

hornblowercat said:


> While I sympathize with Series 1 owners, I kind of look at it like asking for support on a computer that's 7 years old. How long is the company required to support this?


How do you make a business decision?
Do you make it on ethics? Or do you make it on financial reasons?

If the company cannot recoup the costs of *correcting* the problem, how can you, as a stockholder, justify them making it? How many monthly Tivo S1's are out there?

Sue them until their expenses fighting the battle in court exceed the cost of them correcting the problem.

A previous poster had mentioned that at a previous job, a programmer lost the source code, so code could not be fixed. If that is the case, and the offset is hard-wired into something, it maybe almost impossible to correct the problem.

I am not defending Tivo for not fixing S1 software, but I can see the business side of the issue - and in the end, if the boss (not the engineer) says, "It costs too much, I won't pay for it", guess what happens...


----------



## hornblowercat

How come nobody quoted in my post where I said *"still If I were a series 1 owner I wouldn't be happy at all?"* 

Nature of the beast. I really don't think TiVo is doing the right thing, I just posted that over in the TiVo help center.


----------



## Adam1115

Rowsdower said:


> I'm amazed at the amount of hostility toward people with the audacity to complain about malfunctions in a product that they paid money for (and that some continue to pay money for).
> 
> No one is saying that it's "the end of the world," but this is a forum in which to discuss TiVo (an inherently unimportant topic "in the grand scheme of things"). If you wish to discuss matters such as global warming and world hunger, please look elsewhere.


What hostility? Just some don't agree with you...

Personally I don't see the big deal, I've have ZERO manual recordings. The ONLY time I use this feature is if I want to record something from the cable access channel that has no guide data.

The argument doesn't sit well with me since you don't even own a s1, but fine, you think it's a huge thing.

I work in IT, I'm used to things not working right. I bet TiVo evaluated how many s1 users there are, how many actual use the manual recording 1980's vcr feature and decided it wasn't worth dusting off 7 year old code to start patching a EOL product...


----------



## Adam1115

n548gxg said:


> Oh, I should not mention the software issue. Please, the last thing I need is some body emailing me, paypal etc about TIVO software that is not working.
> 
> It is as unethical as selling your car to a teenager because you know the transmission is going.


No put a disclaimer if you want.

** Note: If you insist on using this older model tivo as a VCR, your recordings will be off by one hour.

I'm sure you'll still get your $199 lifetime back out of it. 

Heck, when you get it up there with $199 buy it now, shoot me a link, I'll take away your broken worthless series1 off your hands...


----------



## direfan

You think this issue is ripe for a class action suit? I mean, I paid a lifetime subscription fee. By having to manually change my recordings, TIVO is not keeping its end of the lifetime deal. Basically for 4 weeks in a year, the TIVO does not work optimally and that is a breach of contract. What do you guys think?

D


----------



## timckelley

hornblowercat said:


> While I sympathize with Series 1 owners, I kind of look at it like asking for support on a computer that's 7 years old. How long is the company required to support this?


If they don't want to support us monthly paying customers or us people who've already paid for lifetime guide data, then an acceptable compromise would be for them to allow us to transfer our lifetime subs to a series 2. I'd be very happy with that. Even if we have to pay for the series 2 box, that's fine, as long as the price is reasonable.


----------



## MickeS

n548gxg said:


> Next time I will buy a generic DVR. Then I will not expect too much.


Good luck with that.


----------



## LoadStar

timckelley said:


> If they don't want to support us monthly paying customers or us people who've already paid for lifetime guide data, then an acceptable compromise would be for them to allow us to transfer our lifetime subs to a series 2. I'd be very happy with that. Even if we have to pay for the series 2 box, that's fine, as long as the price is reasonable.


Agreed.

And to those who point to it being a fiscally responsible decision on the part of TiVo, you might be right... but that's not what TiVo is saying. If they actually came out and said, flat out, "We didn't feel it was in the best interest of the company to spend our resources developing a patch for S1 units," I'd still be annoyed - but less so than now, with them trying to make us believe that, in 19 months, they couldn't figure out how to write a simple patch for S1 owners.

It's a discredit to the engineers, making them look incompetent; it's a discredit to the company, making them look like they cannot plan properly; and it's a discredit to the customers, indicating that TiVo thinks we're idiots and we'd believe any line of crap they throw out there.


----------



## MickeS

direfan said:


> You think this issue is ripe for a class action suit?


You've been on TCF long enough to know that EVERYTHING is ripe for a class action suit.


----------



## MickeS

LoadStar said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And to those who point to it being a fiscally responsible decision on the part of TiVo, you might be right... but that's not what TiVo is saying. If they actually came out and said, flat out, "We didn't feel it was in the best interest of the company to spend our resources developing a patch for S1 units," I'd still be annoyed - but less so than now, with them trying to make us believe that, in 19 months, they couldn't figure out how to write a simple patch for S1 owners.
> 
> It's a discredit to the engineers, making them look incompetent; it's a discredit to the company, making them look like they cannot plan properly; and it's a discredit to the customers, indicating that TiVo thinks we're idiots and we'd believe any line of crap they throw out there.


+1

They need to address this in a reasonably manner, and they haven't done so. A free or very low-cost upgrade to a lifetimed Series 2 or free lifetime for a Series 3 should be offered to lifetime Series 1 subscribers.

As for monthly Series 1 subscribers... well I don't have much sympathy there, honestly.  Just get a new TiVo.


----------



## timckelley

class action suit? It seems a gray area to me, so it'd be nice for a lawyer to chime in on this. They are legally bound to give us guide data, which they still are. But the guide data appears wrong when an 8 pm show is saying 9pm (or is it 7pm? TiVo is telling us to do the mental arithmetic as a work around, but I'll tell you right now, I'm going to have to think twice about which direction to move the hour. I can see right now, people coming here to complain they lost a show because the added/subtracted when they should have subtracted/added. This just seems sloppy to me.)

The guide data is techically there and accurate, but it appears wrong when you look at it. So are they in breach? I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that.


----------



## Rowsdower

dstoffa said:


> How do you make a business decision?
> Do you make it on ethics? Or do you make it on financial reasons?


The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. TiVo, Inc. relies on positive word of mouth to attract new customers, and the goodwill that the company has build over the years is crucial to the goal of one day becoming profitable. What might seem logical in the short term could have disastrous long-term consequences.



> _A previous poster had mentioned that at a previous job, a programmer lost the source code, so code could not be fixed. If that is the case, and the offset is hard-wired into something, it maybe almost impossible to correct the problem._


I seriously doubt that this is the case.



> _I am not defending Tivo for not fixing S1 software, but I can see the business side of the issue - and in the end, if the boss (not the engineer) says, "It costs too much, I won't pay for it", guess what happens..._


If this is so, it means that TiVo is lying to the public. I don't believe that.


----------



## Rowsdower

Adam1115 said:


> No put a disclaimer if you want.
> 
> ** Note: If you insist on using this older model tivo as a VCR, your recordings will be off by one hour.


You say, "insist," as though such individuals are doing something unreasonable.

And of course, some people have the nerve to expect their DVR's clock and listed program times to be accurate.


----------



## Rowsdower

Adam1115 said:


> What hostility? Just some don't agree with you...


Expressing disagreement is fine. That's what I'm doing. You, conversely, asked me to "just cancel [my] TiVo subscription since [I'm] so unhappy and replace it with a non TiVo DST proof DVR."

As I said, it's perfectly reasonable for you to believe that this is a minor problem. It is _not_ reasonable for you to imply that anyone who disagrees with you is insatiable and should go away.



> _Personally I don't see the big deal, I've have ZERO manual recordings._


Yes, *you* have zero manual recordings. *You* don't rely on the times listed in the TiVo guide to plan live television viewing. *You* are not an elderly person who is easily confused by such a discrepancy. Not everyone is exactly like *you*.



> _The argument doesn't sit well with me since you don't even own a s1_


Excuse me for caring about how other people are affected.



> _but fine, you think it's a huge thing._


Everything's relative. I perceive this as a significant issue in the realm of DVRs, but I'm sure that the sun will continue to rise and set (just at different times).



> _I bet TiVo evaluated how many s1 users there are, how many actual use the manual recording 1980's vcr feature_


...and desire a program guide with accurate times...



> _and decided it wasn't worth dusting off 7 year old code to start patching a EOL product..._


...which would mean that the company is lying to customers. I prefer to believe that this was an honest screw-up.


----------



## Meep

unbelievable. Tivo is a lazy company with blatant disregard for its current customer base.


----------



## VictorWI

Will this thread die on April 1st. It is growing tiresome, even for a monthly S1 subscriber. If my Season Passes work as they state I'm good. Having majored in Mathematics I am confident of my abilities to add/subtract an hour in the guide to see what is on live during the "cosmetic" weeks. Not that I've watched much live programming since joining the TiVolution.


----------



## timckelley

Okay, TiVo has announced their short terms plans for us TiVo 1 owners. (That they intend to screw us over.  ) Now we need to hear their long term plans for us. I want to know if this bug is permanent or one that will eventually be fixed. It would be nice to know this. Surely an announcment on this is not too much to ask for, is it?


----------



## hornblowercat

Meep said:


> unbelievable. Tivo is a lazy company with blatant disregard for its current customer base.


Just curious. How many TiVo's do you own? TiVo's got alot on it's plate now and *while I don't disagree that they should support the time change for Series 1 customers*, I think your overall statement is not based on fact.

TiVo just released 8.1 for S2 and S3 customers, they are working on their Comcast platform, they just worked with Unbox to make that happen, they are continuing to fight with cablelabs to work out a solution for TTG, MRV, and eSATA for the S3. Not to mention their recently announced mass markedted HD DVR they plan to release.

Doesn't sound lazy to me.


----------



## LoadStar

VictorWI said:


> Will this thread die on April 1st. It is growing tiresome, even for a monthly S1 subscriber. If my Season Passes work as they state I'm good. Having majored in Mathematics I am confident of my abilities to add/subtract an hour in the guide to see what is on live during the "cosmetic" weeks. Not that I've watched much live programming since joining the TiVolution.


And you're forced to read this thread...?


----------



## timckelley

LoadStar said:


> And you're forced to read this thread...?


Since he's saying that he's getting tired out by this thread and that he wants it to die, then yes, I'd say that somebody is forcing him to read it, and that he has no option for unsubscribing to it.


----------



## VictorWI

LoadStar said:


> And you're forced to read this thread...?


Yes, I am being held down and forced... Well no and I'd hoped my  icon would have implied tongue and cheek. I don't know if this has been mentioned or not as I've technically not read the entire thread but section 18 of the TiVo Service Agreement states (quoted from http://www.tivo.com/5.11.2.asp).

"YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE TIVO SERVICE IS PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS. TIVO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT THE TIVO SERVICE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, ALLOW YOU TO RECORD, VIEW OR TRANSFER ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING, OR THAT USE OF THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR ERROR-FREE; NOR DOES TIVO MAKE ANY WARRANTY AS TO THE ACCURACY OR RELIABILITY OF ANY INFORMATION OBTAINED THROUGH THE TIVO SERVICE (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY CONTENT), THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE CORRECTED OR THAT THE TIVO DVR OR TIVO SERVICE WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SPECIFIC HARDWARE OR SERVICE."

Does this mean they really don't have to fix any issue...?


----------



## perfmon

It is very disappointing to learn that TiVo has given up support of older systems. My TiVo has many manual recordings and this is not a trivial issue. Any chance of buying a new TiVo is out the window. This just shows what to expect (or not expect) from TiVo in the future. Buyers should keep this in mind before putting out their money for any new TiVo product. Series 1 users should flood technical newspaper writers and web sites with complaints about this lack of product support.


----------



## RoyK

VictorWI said:


> Yes, I am being held down and forced... Well no and I'd hoped my  icon would have implied tongue and cheek. I don't know if this has been mentioned or not as I've technically not read the entire thread but section 18 of the TiVo Service Agreement states (quoted from http://www.tivo.com/5.11.2.asp).
> 
> "YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE TIVO SERVICE IS PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS. TIVO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT THE TIVO SERVICE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, ALLOW YOU TO RECORD, VIEW OR TRANSFER ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING, OR THAT USE OF THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR ERROR-FREE; NOR DOES TIVO MAKE ANY WARRANTY AS TO THE ACCURACY OR RELIABILITY OF ANY INFORMATION OBTAINED THROUGH THE TIVO SERVICE (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY CONTENT), THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE CORRECTED OR THAT THE TIVO DVR OR TIVO SERVICE WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SPECIFIC HARDWARE OR SERVICE."
> 
> Does this mean they really don't have to fix any issue...?


That seems pretty clear to me. Like almost all Service Agreements it is completely one-sided.
Roy


----------



## IHDB

RoyK said:


> That seems pretty clear to me. Like almost all Service Agreements it is completely one-sided.
> Roy


It seems abundantly clear to me too - I expect the same out of every service agreement that I enter into. Maybe that's why this is like water off my back, if you set the bar low enough, life becomes pretty easy. 

Rowsdower, I do want to apologize if I came across too harsh - I didn't see any of this hostility that you're talking about, but you did come back and slam the door on my first post a little hard (undersood, I guess, since I'm the new guy). The only other hostility I can see that you may be talking about is with Adam1115 and GoHokies, but even that is pretty tame and is almost-not-quite polite disagreement.


----------



## Meep

hornblowercat said:


> Just curious. How many TiVo's do you own? TiVo's got alot on it's plate now and *while I don't disagree that they should support the time change for Series 1 customers*, I think your overall statement is not based on fact.
> 
> TiVo just released 8.1 for S2 and S3 customers, they are working on their Comcast platform, they just worked with Unbox to make that happen, they are continuing to fight with cablelabs to work out a solution for TTG, MRV, and eSATA for the S3. Not to mention their recently announced mass markedted HD DVR they plan to release.
> 
> Doesn't sound lazy to me.


I own 3 tivos. 2 liftime S1's and a lifetime S2. My series 2 was affected by the so-called upgrade awhile back, which made it sluggish to say the least. Then after MONTHS they provided a fix, which barely upgraded the speed, but is still very sluggish.

Then to top it all off, I recently have been receiving collection letter threats that I owe $31. I've never received a bill from tivo, nor should I have. I've made numorous calls to them to resolve it getting nowhere. Advanced billing says I owe nothing, yet I keep receiving threatening emails and mail. 2 days ago they assured me they would get back to me within 24 hours with a resolution. not lazy?

So yes, I stand behind what I say that Tivo can give a rats ass about you or me. Sure, this latest S1 fiasco might not affect you and you might not care, but sooner or later it will.


----------



## mathwhiz

TiVoJerry said:


> mathwhiz, as you know from my post in this thread, to which you've posted a response, I stated:
> 
> _We will also be sending Pre-TiVo Central Messaging to the DTV platforms this ....
> 
> I apologize for not including the PTCM statement in this thread earlier._


_

Thanks Jerry - I read that thread and post after I posted here - that is one of my talents to post a response before I read that the answer I wanted is somewhere else._


----------



## Bill McNeal

I'll take the TiVo representatives at their word that the company made a good faith attempt, but was unsuccessful, in a fix for Series 1 users.

But it is disappointing that Series 1 users, the early adopters that help ensure the company's survival during its infancy, now see the company turn its back on them.


----------



## wickerbill

This is pretty sad that tivo is now stooping to the level we usually see from other companies. To all the people that say series 1 owners should have used the free transfer that was offered FOUR years ago did you know that we had to buy a series 2 tivos for about $300 if I remember correctly? It wasn't a free transfer and at the time the only real advantage that I got out of doing that was Folders in my now playing list and the option to pay another $99 for the Home Media Option. There was really no compelling reason at all to make the upgrade. They haven't offered it since to my knowledge so that argument doesn't hold water.

I also don't see how they could have lost the source code unless they're totally incompetent. If that's the case, then they really need to look at their backup plans and hire some competent IT staff.

If making this change is really that difficult then maybe they need to look at the way DST is handled with the series 2 and 3 tivos and make sure that the code is improved so that we're not forced to deal with this some time down the road when tivo decides our tivos aren't worth supporting any more.

As long as tivo is collecting money from these old tivos, they have a responsibility to keep them functioning properly. I don't think the expectation is unrealistic for people paying monthly or paid lifetime for tivo to actually keep supporting their tivo. Tivo doesn't have any problem collecting money from these people so why is it unrealistic for those people to expect tivo to support the system? If they want people to stop using them, then they need to offer them a compelling reason to upgrade to one of the newer models. The sad thing is, my series 1, even though it is almost seven years old, sometimes operates faster than my newer series 2 and 3 tivos.


----------



## murgatroyd

Rowsdower said:


> Again, I no longer own any standalone TiVo units. I have DirecTV models (and a "lifetime" subscription). This issue doesn't affect me.
> 
> That's a heck of an attitude, though.


You have a lot of gall, complaining about how MY Series 1 stand-alone TiVos work when you don't even own one anymore.

You have your fix, so why don't you shut up and let the people who actually own S1 SAs do their own complaining.

Jan


----------



## timckelley

For the argument of "we should have upgraded to series 2 when it was offered", I never got the offer. I bought my series 2 used from ebay at a time this offer didn't exist. True, at the time I could have bought a series 2 instead of a series 1, but at the time I just wanted an unsubbed machine. Later (a year ago), I decided I wanted to sub it, and at that time there was no upgrade offer being made. Yes, I could have dumped it at that time and bought a series 2, but I didn't see the point, as my series one already had all the features I wanted, and and trusted in good faith that, since lifetime subs were still being offered, that lifetime means they will supply me with guide data in a format my TiVo can use for it's lifetime.

I realize there is no change to the guide format, but that it's the TiVo software itself that has been rendered bad due to the govt change in our DST, so I guess this is a gray area of what TiVo's responsbilities are.


----------



## murgatroyd

CharlesH said:


> I wonder if our brilliant legislators consider these costs when they fool around with the DST schedule. And it doesn't just apply to "old" computer systems like the Series 1: the manual for my new Honda Pilot says that that the automatic DST adjustment of the clock using the fancy GPS navigation system will be broken by this change, and their recommended fix is to disable the automatic adjustment, and turn DST on/off manually. I would have thought that they would would have a firmware patch you could have your dealer install.
> 
> The problem is even worse for appliances that have clocks but do not have firmware update capabilities. They are just going to be wrong.


And don't forget:

ZDNet: Thousands of Microsoft customers melting down over DST patches

Some of my fellow TCFers seriously need to see the Big Picture.

Yes, the Manual Recording thing is bad -- but It Could Be Worse.

At least they aren't trying to patch an Exchange Server.

Jan


----------



## timckelley

Remember it doesn't just affect manual recordings, but also affects our ability to know when shows are going to be on (i.e. reading the guide data accurately). Some people still watch live TV. I don't, but sometimes I like to know when the shows are on for various reasons.


----------



## SugarBowl

wolflord11 said:


> As for the "New Series 3", yes it is great... if you have cable!!!


or if you don't.


----------



## murgatroyd

jevo said:


> Another thought -- this is not just a cosmetic issue. If you actually try to look through the guide data after Saturday, it is enormously confusing to try and navigate the schedule. And trying to coordinate this with manual recordings is just plain confusing.


The main confusion that I have seen so far is this:

The Manual recordings will appear in the To Do List as:

Manual: [show name]

If you are recording a show with a half-hour or hour timeslot, you will be able to see at a glance that the Manual Recording is pointing to the wrong timeslot.

Thus my 11:00 PM MR for my local ABC news points to Nightline after 3/11.

The real confusion happens when you record shows which are longer than an hour, since they will point to the show you want, but they'll be somewhere in the middle of the timeslot. (E.g. My MR for the morning news still points to the morning news because the show is longer than an hour.)

I should also mention that my job requires me to communicate with people in other timezones, so I make the mental calculation of what time it is elsewhere daily. Perhaps it is harder for everyone else to keep track of Standard Time and DST at the same time because you aren't using that skill everyday.

If you do have Guide Data, the thing to do is use your Guide and make sure your manual recording is set to the same timeslot as the one showing in your Guide.

For those of you who have computers in the same room as your TiVo, this program might help: Time Zones for PCs. It would allow you to have one clock on your desktop which is set to Local Time, one to 'TiVo time'.

For those who are unsubbed, an Excel spreadsheet could help translate times.

Jan


----------



## murgatroyd

timckelley said:


> Remember it doesn't just affect manual recordings, but also affects our ability to know when shows are going to be on (i.e. reading the guide data accurately). Some people still watch live TV. I don't, but sometimes I like to know when the shows are on for various reasons.


I'm not trying to blow you off, Tim, honest.

I just have to remember every single day that if I want to talk to my vendor on the East Coast I have to call her before 4 PM because she goes home at 7 PM her time.

So I'm baffled by the idea that people can't see that the Guide says a show is on at 9 and they can't remember that for the next couple of weeks they need to add an hour and watch the show at 10. For me, remembering to add 1 is a much easier task than having to remember what the time is in New York or Chicago.

It's like makng change -- another task which is apparently simple to me, but dififcult for other people.

I just can't understand why it is difficult, in the same way that other people didn't understand the balance difficulties that made it harder for me to learn to ride a bike than it was for them.

Jan


----------



## wolflord11

SugarBowl said:


> or if you don't.


The Series 3 can only accept Cable, or OTA not Sat.

So if you are a Sat and only Sat user, the Series 3 is a waste of time.


----------



## rainwater

wolflord11 said:


> The Series 3 can only accept Cable, or OTA not Sat.
> 
> So if you are a Sat and only Sat user, the Series 3 is a waste of time.


I think the point was is isn't only for cable users. There are a lot of people who are using it just for OTA.


----------



## Rowsdower

IHDB said:


> Rowsdower, I do want to apologize if I came across too harsh - I didn't see any of this hostility that you're talking about, but you did come back and slam the door on my first post a little hard (undersood, I guess, since I'm the new guy).


Likewise, I apologize if _my_ reply came across as harsh. It wasn't intended to.



> _The only other hostility I can see that you may be talking about is with Adam1115 and GoHokies, but even that is pretty tame and is almost-not-quite polite disagreement._


Whatever you want to call it, I've gone out of my way to respond with far greater politeness than has been extended to me. Murgatroyd just literally told me to shut up. You won't see me saying that to anyone (no matter how strongly I disagree with him/her).


----------



## Rowsdower

murgatroyd said:


> You have a lot of gall, complaining about how MY Series 1 stand-alone TiVos work when you don't even own one anymore.


No. You appear to be satisfied with _your_ TiVo boxes, so I wouldn't complain on _your_ behalf. I'm complaining on behalf of my relatives, friends and co-workers who purchased Series1 TiVo units on my recommendation, as well as my sister (to whom I gave my boxes). As I said, having spoken with her over the telephone last night (to retract my promise that this matter would be taken care of, which I based on this assurance from TiVoStephen), I'm officially affected now.

I also care about TiVo's reputation and future success. I've been singing TiVo's praises and recruiting new users for years, but when I see the company screwing up, you can be darn sure that I'm going to say something.



> _You have your fix, so why don't you shut up and let the people who actually own S1 SAs do their own complaining._


Wow, now I'm literally being told to shut up.


----------



## murgatroyd

Rowsdower said:


> No. You appear to be satisfied with _your_ TiVo boxes, so I wouldn't complain on _your_ behalf. I'm complaining on behalf of my relatives, friends and co-workers who purchased Series1 TiVo units on my recommendation, as well as my sister (to whom I gave my boxes). As I said, having spoken with her over the telephone last night (to retract my promise that this matter would be taken care of, which I based on this assurance from TiVoStephen), I'm officially affected now.


Fair enough -- I missed your post where you said you had given your old S1 boxes to your sister. In that case, you do have a legitimate beef, because you are trying to provide support to her.

I thought you were complaining about the S1 problems when you had no stake in the matter anymore.

I too care about TiVo's future success, which is why I don't expect them to squander a lot of resources chasing a problem with my S1s when I can work around it.

Clearly the customers of the S3s and current S2 models have to be taken care of first, because if those machines aren't perfect, it affects any future sales of TiVos from now on.

I really don't understand why it is so hard for some S1 owners to see that.

Jan


----------



## bidger

timckelley said:


> If they don't want to support us monthly paying customers or us people who've already paid for lifetime guide data, then an acceptable compromise would be for them to allow us to transfer our lifetime subs to a series 2. I'd be very happy with that. Even if we have to pay for the series 2 box, that's fine, as long as the price is reasonable.


Question for you, and actually any S1 owners: would you be willing to pay the additional $199 transfer fee S3 owners had to cough up if TiVo were to offer you a Lifetime transfer deal?


----------



## jsmeeker

bidger said:


> Question for you, and actually any S1 owners: would you be willing to pay the additional $199 transfer fee S3 owners had to cough up if TiVo were to offer you a Lifetime transfer deal?


you mean if that was a permanent offer to anyone going from any box with lifetime to a new box?

I guess it would depend on the month to month pricing plan in place at the time, coupled with the price of the box. I didn't have (still don't have) and HDTV when then initial $199 transfer offer was made for people buying a new Series 3 (at the time, I think they sold for about $700). Lots of people debated the merits of it and whether or not it would pay off. At the very least, I would certainly consider it.


----------



## schwinn

> My Sony VHS Hi-Fi recorder has a clock that ended on December 31, 2005 and started over in 1990. Where do I get a firmware update?


Not to direct this to the OP of this line, but it's simply an example to refer to the many similar posts provided earlier.

My response to this is that Sony VCR in this example did not come with a lifetime service agreement. If it did, then I would complain about that, too... but it didn't, so it's an apples-oranges comparison. Same argument goes for <insert product here, such as Windows98/95, etc> which did not ship with "lifetime service".



> While I sympathize with Series 1 owners, I kind of look at it like asking for support on a computer that's 7 years old. How long is the company required to support this?


Hmm... let's see... for the product's "lifetime" as it was sold with this feature explicitly stated?



> They offered Lifetime tranfers to a Series 2 for a short time after the Series 2 platform was lauched. Some time after that, they probably casually stated they would no longer update the Series 1 software.


Exactly... during the offer period there was no mention of the death of the S1 platform... simply that the new S2 was better, supposedly. Honestly, after playing with my friend's S2, I prefer the response speed of my S1 over that slow device. So, why would I pay more for an S2 (they WEREN'T free upgrades at the time) to get a less responsive system? Had they said that they would stop covering the S1, I may have reconsidered, but they didn't. In fact, as wickerbill mentioned:


> To all the people that say series 1 owners should have used the free transfer that was offered FOUR years ago did you know that we had to buy a series 2 tivos for about $300 if I remember correctly? It wasn't a free transfer and at the time the only real advantage that I got out of doing that was Folders in my now playing list and the option to pay another $99 for the Home Media Option. There was really no compelling reason at all to make the upgrade. They haven't offered it since to my knowledge so that argument doesn't hold water.


So, no compelling feature to upgrade for, and no reason to think the S1 was going to be killed off. Can we finally get off the dumb lifetime-transfer excuse now?

However, I disagree with wikerbill's mention that "As long as tivo is collecting money from these old tivos, they have a responsibility to keep them functioning properly." Just because I bought a lifetime sub, am I not to be counted? On the contrary, BECAUSE I bought a lifetime sub, I SHOULD be counted. Just because I am not paying the monthly fee, doesn't mean I am less of a tivo-customer. I simply took advantage of the payment plan that best suited my needs,which was the lifetime sub. I have already paid my due, and am implicitly still a "paying customer" even though I don't send in a check... this is the definition of the lifetime service. So, lifetime or monthly is irrelevant to this discussion. The lifetime was a valid contract, just as the monthly continues to be valid via a monthly check. Neither is more or less significant.

So, count me in on the distaste of this response from Tivo. I see no technical reason this cannot be fixed... only a business reason. I mean, it's a linux box running on a PowerPC chip... these are not so old that they are obsolete, and the hardware isn't even rare or unusual. If other computer platforms can fix it, why can't this one be fixed? If they have to recompile the entire code, then they should do it. If they have to patch it, do that. Don't tell me "it can't be done"... that's just a plain old lie. If it's because they "lost" the source code, then that's their liability, not mine.

If they don't want to continue supporting S1 owners, then that's a problem. If they want to give me an S2 and transfer lifetime to it, then that's fine. Heck, if they want to make me buy an S2 and let me transfer to it, that's ok too. I don't mind paying the extra purchase - they are cheap enough now (for both Tivo and me), and I don't "hate" Tivo, so I don't mind putting up some money to retain my lifetime (though, technically, I shouldn't have to). It's certainly in their best customer-service-interest to do this... but my guess is that they don't care about the lifetime contract, and that's what really bothers me.

Was it a mistake for Tivo to provide a Lifetime sub? It seems to be the case, as evidenced of their removal of this plan from their current choices. However, this "mistake" (if you want to call it that) was not my fault, and it was not a trick on my part to get this service via some special offer or coupon or whatever, and it happened many years ago. So, the money was paid in good faith, and the service should be continued in good faith. Just because they feel it's a mistake now doesn't mean they can simply invalidate the offer because they changed their mind... that would be a breach of this agreement.

So, please Tivo, save us S1 owners from this poor showing. I am certainly willing to hear better options, and am even willing to foot a small bill for an S2 (though I shouldn't have to, but that's how much I love the Tivo.)

Just don't tell me there is "no option" for a solvable problem - technically and/or business-wise.


----------



## LoadStar

bidger said:


> Question for you, and actually any S1 owners: would you be willing to pay the additional $199 transfer fee S3 owners had to cough up if TiVo were to offer you a Lifetime transfer deal?


Probably not. I'm not ready to go to a S3 box at this time, and I wouldn't pay $200 to move to a S2 box, when I would get no more functionality out of that than I would out of my current S1.

The only reason I'd move to a S2 would be to help TiVo out by getting off a platform they are *unwilling* (not "unable") to continue to support, and moving to a platform they want to support.


----------



## timckelley

$199 is a little steep. I'd have to think about it. If it were only to fix this DST problem, I'd say no, it's not worth $199. But to tell the truth, series 2 has HMO, TiVo2Go, and folders, so it might be worth $199.


----------



## RealityCheck

logic88 said:


> I don't think Microsoft offered a lifetime subscription with each copy of Windows 98.
> 
> And while I don't have a Win98 box handy to check, I'm pretty sure TZEDIT will work with 98, 98SE, and ME.


I'm pretty sure Microsoft hasn't taken dime 1 from customers just to use basic OS features, beyond the intial purchase cost. The Windows retail fee lets me use the OS to my heart's content. An unsubbed TiVo box is practically useless.

My favorite compliant against Series1 customers is lack of revenue. Didn't Series1 customers pay MUCH higher upfront costs without rebate/subsidy? I'd argue Series1 customers have been more profitable for TiVo even with lifetime. At $500-700 for the Series1 hardware, $199 or so for lifetime service, or $12.95 for the past 7 years, I'd say TiVo should be more thankful. DirecTivo is seeing this patch because D* ponied up the cash. S1 users are in the cold because TiVo won't dedicate the two engineers and the week's worth of man-hours needed to apply the fix. If TiVo didn't charge sub fees (monthly or lifetime), I wouldn't care. Alas, they do. As long as they're taking money for a product, they owe that customer realistic support. A DST software patch certainly fits the "realistic" support metric.


----------



## dcheesi

spankspank said:


> This reminds me of situation I experienced in the early 90's in one of my first jobs. I installed and supported a Unix accounting application. Users would call us and point out bugs that existed. Our team would ask the developer to fix the bugs but he never did. He would get testy and deny or defend the bugs or just make silly excuses why he couldn't fix them. What he didn't reveal for a couple years was that portions of source code had been lost and he could no longer build the application as it existed in the field. He was spending all his time rewriting the lost code and later gave up in frustration.


The more I think about it, the more I wonder of this is in fact the problem here. Both the hardware platform and the software itself have changed considerably in the years since the last Series 1 software update. It's entirely possible that some aspect of their S1 software development environment has either been lost or become unusable.

It's not just the source code, it's also the tools, eg. compilers used to generate the binaries. If any one of those tools was not preserved properly, or if a license expired or dongle died and cannot be renewed/replaced, then they could be simply unable to render updates to the S1 software.

Failing that, if their source code-base has to be reconstructed from multiple sources, or if a tool has to be upgraded to a later version, then the bug-free status of any resulting update would be in question. They could very well conclude that it's better to leave the known bug than to release a questionable update which they no longer have the facilities to thoroughly test.

Of course the S1 build environment _should_ have been fully preserved, so TiVo wouldn't be entirely blameless. But it's not uncommon for problems like these to crop up when trying to revive dormant platforms. And if it's the source itself that was lost, it would be sufficiently embarassing that I can see why TiVo wouldn't openly reveal the situation.


----------



## RealityCheck

By the way, GM still issues recalls for products, and fixes them beyond a 5 year period.


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## DancnDude

I'd certainly move it over to the S2 for $199 if I could put it on a DT. I would even have moved it over the S3 if it wasn't so expensive to buy the box (close to $1000 with the box + transfer) and I didn't have that kind of cash lying around. 

TiVo needs to make it worthwhile for someone to move off of the S1. Otherwise they are going to stick around because they've proved that they last a long time. And most of the problems you can easily fix by adding a new HD or modem, which further extends the life. 

So far, every time they've had an offer to transfer the lifetime, the upfront box fee was large.


----------



## timckelley

If TiVo has actually lost the ability to patch the S1's as has just been suggested, then I think they should seriously consider letting us transfer our lifetimes to a series 2.


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## bidger

jsmeeker said:
 

> you mean if that was a permanent offer to anyone going from any box with lifetime to a new box?


Yeah, that's exactly what I meant smeek. Sorry if I wasn't clear before.

I don't want to pretend I can see all the issues that might be involved with making that offer a long time, rather than limited, offer. $199 is only a $100 reduction to the current 3 year prepay plan @ $299. It generates revenue, it is lump sum granted, but if you couple it with a MSD special, and if TiVo is serious about removing S1 machines, restricting that to S2 machines only.

Just wondered how much interest there would be and thanks to all who replied.


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## Meep

there's no way in hell I'd pay $199 to transfer s1 to s2. It shouldn't cost anything. I still prefer my S1 over my S2.


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## jsmeeker

Meep said:


> there's no way in hell I'd pay $199 to transfer s1 to s2. It shouldn't cost anything. I still prefer my S1 over my S2.


when the S2 was new, you could have transferred lifetime to a S2 box from an S1 box for free.


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## bidger

Obviously, Meep, that's your choice, but if HD is in your future, you might find your stance changing. If you're content now, that's all that matters though.


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## jsmeeker

bidger said:


> Yeah, that's exactly what I meant smeek. Sorry if I wasn't clear before.
> 
> I don't want to pretend I can see all the issues that might be involved with making that offer a long time, rather than limited, offer. $199 is only a $100 reduction to the current 3 year prepay plan @ $299. It generates revenue, it is lump sum granted, but if you couple it with a MSD special, and if TiVo is serious about removing S1 machines, restricting that to S2 machines only.
> 
> Just wondered how much interest there would be and thanks to all who replied.


again, i'd have to look at the pricing options at the time. I can't recall what they were when they made the initial offer. They also had the additional wrinkle of keeping one year of service on the old box. I would actually need to go back into the old threads and see what my comments were at the time. I really can't remember. The best I can recall was that it didn't seem to be a slam dunk one way or the other.


----------



## bidger

jsmeeker said:


> They also had the additional wrinkle of keeping one year of service on the old box.


It was a *free* year of service to the box the Lifetime Service was on originally.


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## jsmeeker

bidger said:


> It was a *free* year of service to the box the Lifetime Service was on originally.


right.. I think that's what I said. At least I think it is. Or is it not?


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## timckelley

jsmeeker said:


> when the S2 was new, you could have transferred lifetime to a S2 box from an S1 box for free.


And I probably would have taken advantage of that had the offer been in effect when I first subscribed my S1.


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## tlc

TiVoStephen said:


> As Jerry and Pony have already said, we don't plan on doing nothing. Details are forthcoming.
> 
> Many of us TiVo employees are Series1 users. We're not going to leave you high and dry.


I guess the plan changed.

Oh well, sh*t happens. I don't mind that Stephen and others turned out to be wrong (not "liars").

But I mind that the official page says "none exist" like a solution was impossible. Clearly, Tivo chose not to invest the resources to make the solution happen.

And I mind the "cosmetic" label on the same page. If my watch doesn't tell me the correct time is it a cosmetic issue? If you have only one manual recording among your many Season Passes, this issue affects you. If you might have a manual recording someday, this issue affects you. If you ever look at the guide data to know when a show comes on, this issue affects you.

I hope they choose to fix this before we "fall back". Being wrong for several weeks a year looks very bad.

tlc


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## timckelley

Yes, the official TiVo.com website says "Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1, but unfortunately none exist. "

Nowhere on their website do I see any statement that they will or will not attempt to fix this problem for the future. The above statement sort of suggests they won't, but it doesn't really definitively say.

We know it won't be fixed for spring, but I wish somebody would tell us whether they intend to eventually fix it, or if they instead intend to leave us permanantly high and dry.

I can't believe they didn't address this important question on their official website. At this point, I'm not asking for a fix. I'm asking for them to tell if they will eventually fix. Sure that's not too much to ask.


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## sbourgeo

jsmeeker said:


> when the S2 was new, you could have transferred lifetime to a S2 box from an S1 box for free.


You had to buy the S2 direct from TiVo for $400 for the privilege though...


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## jsmeeker

sbourgeo said:


> You had to buy the S2 direct from TiVo for $400 for the privilege though...


yeah. I recall the discussions over this. Many suggested it wasn't a good deal beacuse you could eBay the Series 1 with lifetime and fully recover the lifetime cost. My take was that while that was true, taking up TiVo on the offer eliminated any "hassels" with an eBay auction. Overall, it was a "wash". But really, I didn't think it was a *bad* deal. It wasn't a great deal either. But it was a convenient deal.


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## imadork

timckelley said:


> Yes, the official TiVo.com website says "Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1, but unfortunately none exist. "
> 
> Nowhere on their website do I see any statement that they will or will not attempt to fix this problem for the future. The above statement sort of suggests they won't, but it doesn't really definitively say.
> 
> We know it won't be fixed for spring, but I wish somebody would tell us whether they intend to eventually fix it, or if they instead intend to leave us permanantly high and dry.
> 
> I can't believe they didn't address this important question on their official website. At this point, I'm not asking for a fix. I'm asking for them to tell if they will eventually fix. Sure that's not too much to ask.


It's pretty clear to me that if they were working on a fix and it simply wasn't ready, they would have said that. Their statements imply that there will be no fix at all.

TiVo doesn't seem to have any customer service E-mails listed. If I wanted to write a short note to their customer service folks, which E-mail should I use? I already sent a short note to the address that the DST E-mail came from, but I have no way of knowing if a real person will get that....


----------



## timckelley

The absence of a customer service email address has been another of our beefs.



imadork said:


> It's pretty clear to me that if they were working on a fix and it simply wasn't ready, they would have said that. Their statements imply that there will be no fix at all.


No fix + No transfer to series 2 = RAW DEAL. I thought I had a lifetime subscription to my box. It used to be unsubbed, but I decided to sub it, because I thought I was going to get the real features TiVo is famous for.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

timckelley said:


> The absence of a customer service email address has been another of our beefs.
> 
> No fix + No transfer to series 2 = RAW DEAL. I thought I had a lifetime subscription to my box. It used to be unsubbed, but I decided to sub it, because I thought I was going to get the real features TiVo is famous for.


While the best thing would have been TiVo fixing the DST problem they did say they had dropeed support for the S1 and the DST is not an error in the code but something new brought about by an outside agency.

That is all I have to say on this. Sorry you do not have a patch for this.


----------



## timckelley

Then basically for a lot of those years they offered and advertised lifetime subscription for S1's, it was 'buy at your own risk'. I think the market value of used S1's (even with lifetime) has just dropped a certain amount.


----------



## 8bitbarbarian

bidger said:


> Question for you, and actually any S1 owners: would you be willing to pay the additional $199 transfer fee S3 owners had to cough up if TiVo were to offer you a Lifetime transfer deal?


I would pay that amount to transfer my lifetime to a series 2 DT box. I'd even buy the box {please no reconditioned already broken once box}. I also think it is a bad precedent to encourage new sales by not supporting old boxes. But I also love my Tivo and I want the company to succeed.


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## timckelley

Oh yes, I forgot about the DT. I'd love to transfer my lifetime to a DT box.


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## n548gxg

8bitbarbarian said:


> I would pay that amount to transfer my lifetime to a series 2 DT box. I'd even buy the box {please no reconditioned already broken once box}. I also think it is a bad precedent to encourage new sales by not supporting old boxes. But I also love my Tivo and I want the company to succeed.


Sorry I am done buying Tivo products.


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## MickeS

So I just realized that this problem will only occur for three weeks, between march 11 and april 1st? For some reason I thought it would be a permanent problem after march 11.

Well, big deal then... I still think TiVo should compensate somehow, but all the whining here seems pretty silly.


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## timckelley

I agree it's not a huge problem. But think a DST patch shouldn't be a huge problem for them, either.


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## IHDB

MickeS said:


> So I just realized that this problem will only occur for three weeks, between march 11 and april 1st? For some reason I thought it would be a permanent problem after march 11.
> 
> Well, big deal then... I still think TiVo should compensate somehow, but all the whining here seems pretty silly.


Precisely - now and then for a week in the Fall when we go the other way.

To each his own, I guess...


----------



## jimnoblett

murgatroyd said:


> Clearly the customers of the S3s and current S2 models have to be taken care of first, because if those machines aren't perfect, it affects any future sales of TiVos from now on.
> 
> I really don't understand why it is so hard for some S1 owners to see that.
> 
> Jan


Perhaps because some of us S1 owners paid for lifetime support and have a quaint notion that TiVo should actually keep their word?


----------



## mattack

imadork said:


> TiVo doesn't seem to have any customer service E-mails listed. If I wanted to write a short note to their customer service folks, which E-mail should I use? I already sent a short note to the address that the DST E-mail came from, but I have no way of knowing if a real person will get that....


Write a real paper letter, addressed to the Tivo CEO.


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## IHDB

jimnoblett said:


> Perhaps because some of us S1 owners paid for lifetime support and have a quaint notion that TiVo should actually keep their word?


Perhaps some of us S1 owners have the quaint notion that the rest of the S1 owners should actually know what the service agreement says?

As posted earlier in the thread:
""YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE TIVO SERVICE IS PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS. TIVO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT THE TIVO SERVICE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, ALLOW YOU TO RECORD, VIEW OR TRANSFER ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING, OR THAT USE OF THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR ERROR-FREE; NOR DOES TIVO MAKE ANY WARRANTY AS TO THE ACCURACY OR RELIABILITY OF ANY INFORMATION OBTAINED THROUGH THE TIVO SERVICE (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY CONTENT), THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE CORRECTED OR THAT THE TIVO DVR OR TIVO SERVICE WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SPECIFIC HARDWARE OR SERVICE.""

Looks like they are keeping their word just fine to this S1 owner!!!


----------



## n548gxg

IHDB said:


> Perhaps some of us S1 owners have the quaint notion that the rest of the S1 owners should actually know what the service agreement says?
> 
> As posted earlier in the thread:
> ""YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE TIVO SERVICE IS PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS. TIVO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT THE TIVO SERVICE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, ALLOW YOU TO RECORD, VIEW OR TRANSFER ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING, OR THAT USE OF THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR ERROR-FREE; NOR DOES TIVO MAKE ANY WARRANTY AS TO THE ACCURACY OR RELIABILITY OF ANY INFORMATION OBTAINED THROUGH THE TIVO SERVICE (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY CONTENT), THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE CORRECTED OR THAT THE TIVO DVR OR TIVO SERVICE WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SPECIFIC HARDWARE OR SERVICE.""
> 
> Looks like they are keeping their word just fine to this S1 owner!!!


So you are saying that Tivo could introduce bugs that make Series II and III tivo's inoperable, refuse to fix it and this would be fine with you.

They would be keeping their word.

What a poor businesss model.


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## nhaigh

It's a shame that my S1 won't get an update but to be honest I hardly actually know what day things are on, let alone what time. So long as they still arrive in my Now-Playing list and I can watch them I not especially bothered by this.


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## hornblowercat

nhaigh said:


> It's a shame that my S1 won't get an update but to be honest I hardly actually know what day things are on, let alone what time. So long as they still arrive in my Now-Playing list and I can watch them I not especially bothered by this.


Very sensible response to this situation. It is what it is. Just put up with it and think about the poor souls who don't have Tivo and will have to adjusd all herer rogams.


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## samo

n548gxg said:


> So you are saying that Tivo could introduce bugs that make Series II and III tivo's inoperable, refuse to fix it and this would be fine with you.
> 
> They would be keeping their word.
> 
> What a poor businesss model.


Personally, I like this part of the service agreement (section 6) much better:


> TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or *all of the features of the TiVo service* you receive at any time at its discretion.


Yes, every TiVo user (including lifetimers) agreed to it. 
Does it mean that people shouldn't get upset if TiVo pulls a plug on lifetimers?
After all they are leaching money from Rogers' bonus check.


----------



## murgatroyd

timckelley said:


> Before last last year, I was unsubbed and everything was a manual recording, or a manual repeating recording. Were I still in that situation, I'd have to delete all SPs, and reschedule them, and then a few weeks later, delete them again, and reschedule. Sounds like a PITA. That again, by not subscribing, I guess beggars can't be choosers. So I guess there's not a lot of grounds for complaint
> 
> But I'm currently subscribed to my series 1, and so I feel I do have a legitimate beef with this.


Okay, Tim, help me out here. It has been a while since I ran unsubbed, so I can't remember.

If I remember correnctly, unsubbed TiVos still have a Season Pass Manager, do they not? And you can still rank your repeating Manual Recordings in priority order?

If that's the case, then here's a workaround:

1) do NOT delete the Manual Recordings you are using now, since you will need them again as soon as we are in the old DST portion of the year.

2) create new Manual Recordings which take into account the Newfangled, extra-DST Local Time caused by the US Congress. Use them until the weekend when we would have 'sprung ahead'. Put the 'new DST' recordings higher in the SP Manager.

When we reach the 'old DST' period, kill the 'new DST' Manual Recordings and voila, all your old Manual Recordings are still intact. Or keep them for:

3) in the fall, for the 'falling back later' portion of the year, change the priority of your 'new DST' recordings to be higher than the 'old DST' ones.

After we have finally 'fallen back' for good, put your usual Manual Recordings back in place.

Since the S1s do not have 'clipping', a careful use of padding on one end of the recording or the other could be used to 'block' the old Manual Recordings when it was a 'new DST' period, or vice versa.

Will this work, or am I missing something?

Jan


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## murgatroyd

jimnoblett said:


> Perhaps because some of us S1 owners paid for lifetime support and have a quaint notion that TiVo should actually keep their word?


No, I paid for Lifetime _Service_, that is, TV listings which would allow my TiVo DVR to record like a TiVo with Season Passes, Wishlists, and Suggestions.

I'm still getting perfectly good Guide Data which will allow me to record my programs, just as I always do. Furthermore, TiVo Inc. has not changed the format of the Guide Data, nor changed the way that the TiVos dial in to pick it up.

So some of us have an equally quaint notion that TiVo has actually been keeping their word.

I only pray that they continue to do so, and the actions of the complainers don't cause TiVo Inc. to cut the S1s off entirely.

Jan


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## murgatroyd

Rowsdower said:


> When I'm looking for live shows to watch, I use the on-screen guide. I see that a program is airing at 8:00 and plan to watch it at that time. It shouldn't be my responsibility to mentally adjust every time by one hour.


May I suggest, with all due respect, that you never move to a city near the edge of a timezone (or a city that straddles two timezones), especially if your commute causes you to cross the border?

If you don't show up to work on time, I doubt your supervisor will care for the argument _It shouldn't be my responsibility to mentally adjust every time by one hour_.

Jan


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

RealityCheck said:


> My favorite compliant against Series1 customers is lack of revenue. Didn't Series1 customers pay MUCH higher upfront costs without rebate/subsidy? I'd argue Series1 customers have been more profitable for TiVo even with lifetime. At $500-700 for the Series1 hardware, $199 or so for lifetime service, or $12.95 for the past 7 years, I'd say TiVo should be more thankful.


Exactly right.

Not just that, I paid $199 to TiVo at the height of the dotcom bubble. There was a pretty good chance that TiVo was going to blow up into oblivion along with all the other money losing companies of the era long before I got my money's worth of service out of them.

But I paid because I believed, because I wanted to help the "revolution".

I can guarantee you that TiVo took my $199 and *DIDN'T* invest it in a prudent manner so they could provide my service in the future. Instead they *SQUANDERED* it on moronic advertising that did very little to sell product.

In addition, the money we paid helped TiVo go public, and BTW heped make the founders quite wealthy. Without revenue from people like us, Wall Street would have laughed these bozos out of the building.

*I HELPED TIVO SURVIVE.* Without me and all the other people willing to pay for "lifetime" to a startup that was hemorrhaging $millions, there would be no TiVo today.

So I'm tired of hearing how we early adopters should be grateful for this sweetheart "lifetime" service. Instead, it is TiVo that should be grateful.

And this is how TiVo repays the early adopters. As they say, the pioneers are the ones with the arrows in their backs.


----------



## 69800

What really bothers me here is the fact that a bunch of fat cats in congress sit up there and decide to disrupt everyones live by screwing with changing the time on everyone. The tivo issue is just a drop in the bucket of headaches being cause by all of this. We all get ticked at tivo but I am personally ticked at the congressmen for not recognizing the problems they cause. Whats worse is they are saying if this change does not save enough energy they are going to change it back again!! Here we go again. And all of the companies in America using computer chips have the rath of god coming down on them with mad customers for something they were not responsible for in the first place. I would like to see this whole DST thing gone FOREVER!!! Congress.... leave us on one time all year and go find something more important to do!!!! 
Mark


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## imadork

TiVo may not be under contractual obligation to support the Series 1 units in any way. But I don't have any contractual obligation to support a company who ditches their oldest customers because the contract says they can. I don't want all the shiny new features that are being rolled out on newer units - if I did, I would have upgraded when I had the chance. All I want is for my Series 1 to not have a broken UI four weeks out of the year.


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## visionary

Hey guys, lets suggest some brains here. It's a unix Lineax machine, right? Where are all our hackers? Why doesn't one of these people do something useful and just MAKE us a patch? Yes, we'd have to know how to get it on the disk and run it, but how come nobody is trying? Also, what about all those S1's in ENGLAND? They have DST, maybe not on our schedule, but a hacker could compare the two codes and find what is different and change a byte here and there till you find where the GMT time offset is stored, the date it is to change, and then fix it. Might look at the DirectTIVO code too, wouldn't that already have in it exactly what we need?


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## visionary

I just thought of maybe easier way, a stand alone program that would be added to run when Tivo boots, it would look at the date and set the time offset in the machine after the Tivo code ran, correcting it. Then you don't have to figure out all that code, you just use regular Unix knowledge to do it all.


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## IHDB

n548gxg said:


> So you are saying that Tivo could introduce bugs that make Series II and III tivo's inoperable, refuse to fix it and this would be fine with you.
> 
> They would be keeping their word.
> 
> What a poor businesss model.


I'm saying that sometimes things happens that are outside of your, my and Tivo's (or is it "yours, mine and Tivo's" or "you, me and Tivo's") control. Tivo very sensibly put a clause in their contract that put them in the free and clear if something like this happens. I doubt that when the first S1's rolled off of the line that anyone imagined that the DST rules were going to change (much like programmers 40 years ago never thought that their code was going to be in use in the year 2000, sparking that whole Y2K thing). Another example could be the OTA analog cutoff (although I think that has been pushed off so many times that it actually was around when the first S1's rolled off the line) - imagine if overnight your cable company completely changed the way that your Tv was delivered that required a box that was only controlled by an RF remote so that your Tivo wouldn't be able to control it. Tivo would be completely helpless in that situation. Other, slightly more contraversial examples could be SDV or Tivo's support of FIOS (since they are not a real cable company they don't have to comform to Cable Labs standards).

My point is that there are a LOT of situations that are beyond Tivo's control and they would be foolish to not have that clause in their service agreements as it would open them up to countless lawsuits. It's a shame that it has to be that way, but that's a fact of the world around us today. I don't see a situation were Tivo deliberately induced a bug, nor do I ever expect them to do so in the future. That's probably the biggest thing that bothers me about some of the more vocal complainers in the thread - instead of a more even handed "This is a bad situation and I wish that Tivo could do better for us loyal longtime customers" the attitude that "My lifetime subscription singlehandedly saved Tivo in 2001 and the owe me and instead are being lazy and individualy choosing to screw me personally".

I know that it's a "quaint" notion to still have trust in companies, but if Jerry tells us it can't be done, then I believe that either it can't physically be done or can't be done for a cost that Tivo can affoard to pay. Before you say that they are willing to pay "whatever it takes", suppose that Tivo's budget for updating software (fixing bugs, beta testing, pushing software out, whatever) is 1 million dollars for all platforms for all year and that the cost to do what needed to be done for us on the S1 was going to cost 1.5 million dollars alone. Do you think that they should spend the entire budget and then some for a problem that affects their oldest platform for 4 weeks out of the year? What if it was 2 million? 5 million? It is a business decision, and at some point you've just got to say "sorry, it can't be done". It sucks, and I'm not happy about it, but there isn't the personal sense of entitlement that I derserve to bankrupt so that my manual recordings work right for 4 weeks out of the year.


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## jimnoblett

IHDB said:


> Perhaps some of us S1 owners have the quaint notion that the rest of the S1 owners should actually know what the service agreement says?
> 
> As posted earlier in the thread:
> ""YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE TIVO SERVICE IS PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS. TIVO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT THE TIVO SERVICE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, ALLOW YOU TO RECORD, VIEW OR TRANSFER ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING, OR THAT USE OF THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR ERROR-FREE; NOR DOES TIVO MAKE ANY WARRANTY AS TO THE ACCURACY OR RELIABILITY OF ANY INFORMATION OBTAINED THROUGH THE TIVO SERVICE (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY CONTENT), THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE CORRECTED OR THAT THE TIVO DVR OR TIVO SERVICE WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SPECIFIC HARDWARE OR SERVICE.""
> 
> Looks like they are keeping their word just fine to this S1 owner!!!


The service agreement also states that "TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion."

That would also be keeping their word, but I bet you wouldn't be nearly as happy an S1 owner if that happened as you seem to be now.

If this problem doesn't affect you, I am happy for you. The fact is, that it does affect some of us and we have the right to complain about it. TiVo can decide to do nothing about it, or they can fix it. If enough of the affected users ***** long enough, past experience has taught us that TiVo may do something about it.
The fact that TiVo HAS fixed the S1 DTV boxes indicates that they can fix the code, they have chosen for whatever reason not to. So you really shouldn't be surprised that some of us feel like we got screwed.


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## dianebrat

69800 said:


> What really bothers me here is the fact that a bunch of fat cats in congress sit up there and decide to disrupt everyones live by screwing with changing the time on everyone.


Bravo Mark!

And if you're watching the news past the first page, it's also becoming clear that this was not a "clear cut" energy savings, there are studies on both sides of the camp that if you take them seriously, add up to this not being overly effective in the 21st century with our new usage patterns of electricity.

Diane


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## bicker

ah30k said:


> If you don't have any guide data, why do you care if the DST fix is in? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but is there any reason you need the fix?


Without guide data, the only option is to record by date and time. If the time is off by an hour (actually typically, an hour and five minutes ) then it requires a little more math to program recordings. It actually doesn't really matter to me, because although our S1 is still busily recording away, we haven't watched it for a year. It's just a back-up for our Motorola 3416. (For all I know, it's still recording shows that are no longer on at those times anymore...)


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## bicker

parzec said:


> You raise a very good point since these are valid Tivo users, too. From a technical standpoint, it would not be impossible to upgrade the system to fix the DST issue - I think the S1 still periodically dials home even though unsubbed to synchronize clock, etc. From a legal standpoint, though, I do not believe Tivo owes them the upgrade since they are not under any ongoing contractual obligation with the user -- unlike the situation with lifetime and monthly subbed users.


Makes sense to me. Oh well. If I really wanted to be entitled to a fix, I'd be paying them a monthly fee. Thanks for the perspective.


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## bicker

Rowsdower said:


> Are you serious? You don't think that TiVo is even prepared to modify the Series1 code if the need arises? If this is so, shame on them, but I seriously doubt it. They're still taking money from some of these subscribers, for crying out loud!


Folks on the forums have often wondered about rumored commitments to open up the platform if TiVo ever really goes under or gets acquired and doesn't get a buyer willing to support the old lifetime subscriptions. I think this pretty much gives us the answer: That rumor is false. If TiVo ever goes under lifetime subscribers are SOL. If TiVo gets acquired, lifetime subscribers are totally and completely at the mercy of the new company, who may or may not support them, as they wish. Pretty scary.

TiVo is having a very hard time demonstrating to customers that they're going to live up to the commitments that the company projects. Between the 7.3/7.3.1 slowdown problem on later-model S2s, and the missing channel and partial recording problems on the S3, TiVo's dropped the ball for a number of customers, and turned many rabid fans into detractors. :down:


----------



## bicker

Rowsdower said:


> If that were so, it would mean that TiVoStephen lied when he promised that a fix was forthcoming and that TiVoJerry lied when he claimed that the engineers attempted to address the problem. I don't believe that. I also don't believe that TiVo is stupid enough to abandon tools necessary to support paying customers.


I think that's wishful thinking. If TiVo was ever going to fix anything for the S1, at this point, they'd have fixed this. They've decided not to... that should project a very clear message to you.


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## bicker

Rowsdower said:


> 2. People with unsubscribed units have as much right as anyone to expect proper operation.


As such a person, I think I need to disagree with you. TiVo said that they would address problems with the software, as long as I was paying a monthly fee. Their obligations to those of us with unsubbed units ends after a reasonable period of demonstrated usability, regardless of what other promises they may have made. There is no such thing as a "forever" contractual commitments. Those are indefinite commitments, and the law clearly states that either side can terminate their obligations with regard to indefinite commitment just by providing notice.


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## IHDB

jimnoblett said:


> The service agreement also states that "TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion."
> 
> That would also be keeping their word, but I bet you wouldn't be nearly as happy an S1 owner if that happened as you seem to be now.


You've made my point exactly.

I'd be pissed as hell if Tivo just turned us off for no reason.

Since Tivo didn't change the DST rules, and never imagined the change in the rules when they wrote the code for the S1.

Bottom line is you are signing 100% of the blame to Tivo (incorrectly, in my opinion) and not understanding that sometimes, crappy things just happen. Tivo didn't just refuse to change the S1 becuase they are lazy or don't like us S1 users like many are implying here.

Also, the "They updated the DirecTivos, so they can fix our if they want to" is likely wrong. They're different platforms with different code, so I don't doubt that there are differences in how they would be upgraded.


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## bicker

DancnDude said:


> I've largely ignored this thread until today thinking "TiVo always makes things right for their customers" so I didn't follow the thread knowing it would be fixed when the time comes. This is the first time I ever remember TiVo deciding that the User Interface is just not worth the time and giving up on it.


Well, to be fair, they did have a deadline, at least ostensibly. The problems I mentioned earlier (7.3/7.3.1 slowdown, S3 lack of robustness, etc.) are problems that took an extraordinary long time to address, from most folks' perspective, and in the latter case, is still an on-going issue. However, unlike this case, with those cases they didn't give up/haven't given up yet, the latter presumably because those customers affected are using the product which is considered the future of the company. In this case, they had to get the fix done by today.

Of course, I can see the other side of that: They could still continue to work and deliver a fix over the Summer even -- after all this problem won't go away after this year... it'll recur year after year. Again, I think many of us suspect that's really just a reflection of something which TiVo cannot possibly admit to.


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## bicker

samo said:


> The real test for early adaptors of S3 will be implementation of SDV. Since number of S3 users is much less than S1 users, it would be interesting to see if TiVo will do anything at all to remedy the situation. My bet will be on TiVo doing nothing and "apologize for inconvenience".


Absolutely correct. My guess is that they'll respond to SDV with the introduction of the S4 and invite S3 owners to transfer lifetime for a small fee.


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## bicker

hornblowercat said:


> While I sympathize with Series 1 owners, I kind of look at it like asking for support on a computer that's 7 years old. How long is the company required to support this?


This is a good point. I think the first mistake was offering lifetime subscriptions in the first place. Lifetime membership in a club makes sense. Indeterminate support for a piece of technology, in a world where technology becomes obsolete in a relatively short period of time is pretty silly.

Folks should keep a link to this thread handy whenever the question comes up, "Why doesn't TiVo offer lifetime subscriptions anymore?"


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## ewilts

bicker said:


> If TiVo ever goes under lifetime subscribers are SOL. If TiVo gets acquired, lifetime subscribers are totally and completely at the mercy of the new company, who may or may not support them, as they wish. Pretty scary.


First, if TiVo goes under, everybody gets screwed until somebody cracks the platform and releases the details on how to get guide data off the Internet. This topic is forbidden here now but that rule will surely be lifted if TiVo, Inc. no longer exists (or the topic will simply move to other web sites). If TiVo is acquired by another company, we're not really at the mercy of the other company. There are still contracts in place that the new company will probably have to assume. The lifetime agreement I purchased is a contract. Neither TiVo nor any company that acquires them can simply nullify the contract (unless there's a term in the contract that allows that and frankly I haven't actually read the contract).

.../Ed


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## IHDB

bicker said:


> Folks on the forums have often wondered about rumored commitments to open up the platform if TiVo ever really goes under or gets acquired and doesn't get a buyer willing to support the old lifetime subscriptions. I think this pretty much gives us the answer: That rumor is false. If TiVo ever goes under lifetime subscribers are SOL.


I don't think that's quite right - if Tivo opened up the S1 so that people could get guide data into their S1, I'm sure that it would be trivial to get that info into an S2 or S3, since they call into the same servers now.

That being the case, there is no way that the S1 is getting thrown wide open. However, if Tivo were going to go under, it would be another thing entirely to throw the whole system open...


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## ewilts

bicker said:


> Absolutely correct. My guess is that they'll respond to SDV with the introduction of the S4 and invite S3 owners to transfer lifetime for a small fee.


At which point the vast majority of Comcast users will probably tell them to shove it and rent a TiVo-based DVR. But that, of course, depends on just when that SDV introduction is - the longer away it is, the less I would personally care since I consider the TiVo purchase to amortized over its lifespan. If SDV was introduced here tomorrow and Comcast moved all of their channels to it (extremely unlikely I know), my TiVo would have had a 5 month lifespan, a bit steep for a $1000 expenditure. On the other hand, if the introduction is 3 years from now, that expenditure may have been acceptable. Everybody's thresholds are different and SDV isn't rolling out to all of us simultaneously, nor did we all pay the same amount for the SDV nor did that purchase price affect us all the same (some people are richer than others). I'm glad I'm not a TiVo marketing employee...

There's a magic price point for everybody. Just this week a friend mentioned that the HDTV he wanted hit his price point and he ordered one. However, the TiVo hasn't hit his price point yet so he'll go HD TiVo-less.

.../Ed


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## bicker

ewilts said:


> There are still contracts in place that the new company will probably have to assume.


What does that mean? If TiVo can basically say, even without going under or being acquired, that they won't make a DST fix in lifetime S1s, then surely no company that acquires TiVo would have to provide such support updates.



ewilts said:


> The lifetime agreement I purchased is a contract. Neither TiVo nor any company that acquires them can simply nullify the contract (unless there's a term in the contract that allows that and frankly I haven't actually read the contract).


I suggest you read up on the law underlying lifetime contracts. They're contracts of indeterminate duration, and notice is typically all that is necessary for either side to terminate their obligations under them. Sucks, eh?


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## IHDB

bicker said:


> What does that mean? If TiVo can basically say, even without going under or being acquired, that they won't make a DST fix in lifetime S1s, then surely no company that acquires TiVo would have to provide such support updates.


Tivo can say that because it's in the contract that they can, which is the same contact that I think that he was saying the new company would have to honor.

But you're right, that's all made a moot point by the ability to say "This contract is no longer valid".


----------



## timckelley

murgatroyd said:


> Okay, Tim, help me out here. It has been a while since I ran unsubbed, so I can't remember.
> 
> If I remember correnctly, unsubbed TiVos still have a Season Pass Manager, do they not? And you can still rank your repeating Manual Recordings in priority order?
> 
> If that's the case, then here's a workaround:
> 
> 1) do NOT delete the Manual Recordings you are using now, since you will need them again as soon as we are in the old DST portion of the year.
> 
> 2) create new Manual Recordings which take into account the Newfangled, extra-DST Local Time caused by the US Congress. Use them until the weekend when we would have 'sprung ahead'. Put the 'new DST' recordings higher in the SP Manager.
> 
> When we reach the 'old DST' period, kill the 'new DST' Manual Recordings and voila, all your old Manual Recordings are still intact. Or keep them for:
> 
> 3) in the fall, for the 'falling back later' portion of the year, change the priority of your 'new DST' recordings to be higher than the 'old DST' ones.
> 
> After we have finally 'fallen back' for good, put your usual Manual Recordings back in place.
> 
> Since the S1s do not have 'clipping', a careful use of padding on one end of the recording or the other could be used to 'block' the old Manual Recordings when it was a 'new DST' period, or vice versa.
> 
> Will this work, or am I missing something?
> 
> Jan


That won't work, because with unsubbed TiVos, there is no SP manager. You can have pseudo-SPs by way of manual repeating recordings, yes, but the way you maintain them/delete them is by going into the To Do List and deleting them. I believe if you try to schedule two manual repeating programs that conflict, it won't let you. There is no prioritization a la SP manager.


----------



## jimnoblett

IHDB said:


> You've made my point exactly.
> 
> I'd be pissed as hell if Tivo just turned us off for no reason.
> 
> Since Tivo didn't change the DST rules, and never imagined the change in the rules when they wrote the code for the S1.
> 
> Bottom line is you are signing 100% of the blame to Tivo (incorrectly, in my opinion) and not understanding that sometimes, crappy things just happen. Tivo didn't just refuse to change the S1 becuase they are lazy or don't like us S1 users like many are implying here.
> 
> Also, the "They updated the DirecTivos, so they can fix our if they want to" is likely wrong. They're different platforms with different code, so I don't doubt that there are differences in how they would be upgraded.


Actually, my point was that if you read the TOS, TiVo can do pretty much anything they want to, including turning the service off completely. So it's pretty much wasted typing to post the terms of service.

I DO NOT blame TiVo for the DST mess that the politicians have caused. They are as much victims as the users. I DO however believe that since TiVo sold us the service for the life of the box, they owe us a fix. The box is still functioning correctly, the service is not. If they choose not to fix the DST for the S1 boxes, they should refund the purchase price of the lifetime since they are not providing the service we were sold.

Just so you don't have to waste your time posting the TOS again, I realize that nothing is legally required of TiVo. That has very little to do with what is right, though.


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## hornblowercat

IHDB said:


> Tivo can say that because it's in the contract that they can, which is the same contact that I think that he was saying the new company would have to honor.
> 
> But you're right, that's all made a moot point by the ability to say "This contract is no longer valid".


TiVo's contract reads exactly like the credit card agreement that nobody actually reads. Basically it gives a whole bunch of promises, then follows with a whole bunch of disclaimers that leave them room to wiggle out of their promises.

Only a lawyer could come up with this type of mumble jumble.

Anyway, S1 users while I'm still sympathetic, face it. You're screwed, and there isn't a thing in the world you can do about it.

Lood forward to hearing from you in late October.


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## n548gxg

hornblowercat said:


> Anyway, S1 users while I'm still sympathetic, face it. You're screwed, and there isn't a thing in the world you can do about it.


True, Lesson learn. Do not buy a Tivo.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


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## MickeS

n548gxg said:


> True, Lesson learn. Do not buy a Tivo.
> 
> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


How will you survive three weeks when the TiVo is off by an hour? The horror!


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## MickeS

jimnoblett said:


> The box is still functioning correctly, the service is not.


Only if you count "the service" as being manual time-based recordings.


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## Opusnbill7

MickeS said:


> How will you survive three weeks when the TiVo is off by an hour? The horror!


And what would you say if the issue affected ALL of Tivo's products? Would it still be such an easy target for your mockery? I don't think so. Just because some of us don't own the hottest, newest boxes, doesn't mean that our lifetime subscription isn't as valuable as yours. Please try to show some respect for those of us who are disappointed, even though apparently you aren't affected by this flaw.


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## timckelley

bicker said:


> Without guide data, the only option is to record by date and time. If the time is off by an hour (actually typically, an hour and five minutes ) then it requires a little more math to program recordings. It actually doesn't really matter to me, because although our S1 is still busily recording away, we haven't watched it for a year. It's just a back-up for our Motorola 3416. (For all I know, it's still recording shows that are no longer on at those times anymore...)


I agree that unsubbed people, as nonpaying customers, don't really have a justification for complaining, but let me say they are affected even more than bicker says (i.e. they must do arithmetic when scheduling manual recording now).

Not only does every recording they do now require this arithmetic, but every single manual repeating recording they've got (i.e. the unsubbed version of an SP), must now be redone 4 times a year (deleted and reprogrammed). IOW, probably most of their inventory of recordings.

It sounds like a PITA, but again, they're not paying, so I suppose they don't have a lot of room to complain. I guess this could be motivation to sub their unit, but they'd still have the bug. I'm thinking it might be worth it for them, that if they're going to sub the unit, they may as well get a series 2 or 3. Same for the current monthly subbers. People like me, though (who have a lifetime sub on an S1) are in a difficult situation.


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## Rowsdower

murgatroyd said:


> Fair enough -- I missed your post where you said you had given your old S1 boxes to your sister. In that case, you do have a legitimate beef, because you are trying to provide support to her.
> 
> I thought you were complaining about the S1 problems when you had no stake in the matter anymore.


I don't see why that would be unreasonable. Each of us has the right to criticize behavior of which we disapprove. Everyone who wants TiVo to succeed has a stake in this potential public relations nightmare.



> _I too care about TiVo's future success, which is why I don't expect them to squander a lot of resources chasing a problem with my S1s when I can work around it._


Do you expect them to keep their promises (such as the one made last month in this very thread)?



> _Clearly the customers of the S3s and current S2 models have to be taken care of first, because if those machines aren't perfect, it affects any future sales of TiVos from now on._


So does the perception that TiVo doesn't stand behind its products. Many people won't purchase a current model if they believe that the company intends to abandon support in a few years. That's the message that TiVo is sending. That's why this stands to affect all of us (even if we don't own Series1 units).



> _I really don't understand why it is so hard for some S1 owners to see that._


There was no need to prioritize. TiVo should have updated *all* U.S. models (as promised), and they had 19 months to do so.


----------



## Rowsdower

IHDB said:


> Perhaps some of us S1 owners have the quaint notion that the rest of the S1 owners should actually know what the service agreement says?
> 
> As posted earlier in the thread:
> ""YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE TIVO SERVICE IS PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS. TIVO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT THE TIVO SERVICE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, ALLOW YOU TO RECORD, VIEW OR TRANSFER ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING, OR THAT USE OF THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR ERROR-FREE; NOR DOES TIVO MAKE ANY WARRANTY AS TO THE ACCURACY OR RELIABILITY OF ANY INFORMATION OBTAINED THROUGH THE TIVO SERVICE (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY CONTENT), THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE CORRECTED OR THAT THE TIVO DVR OR TIVO SERVICE WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SPECIFIC HARDWARE OR SERVICE.""
> 
> Looks like they are keeping their word just fine to this S1 owner!!!


As others have noted, this isn't a legal issue. The fact that TiVo could stop supporting every DVR without running afoul of the law doesn't mean that this would be ethical or logical from a business standpoint.

As for "keeping their word," we were promised a Series1 fix less than a month ago (in this very thread).


----------



## Rowsdower

murgatroyd said:


> So some of us have an equally quaint notion that TiVo has actually been keeping their word.


Oh, really?



> _I only pray that they continue to do so, and the actions of the complainers don't cause TiVo Inc. to cut the S1s off entirely._


Are you seriously suggesting that TiVo would discontinue support out of spite?


----------



## Rowsdower

bicker said:


> As [a person with an unsubscribed Series 1 unit], I think I need to disagree with you. TiVo said that they would address problems with the software, as long as I was paying a monthly fee.


No, that isn't what was said. TiVo promised that software fixes would be provided to subscribed and unsubscribed users alike. TiVo also promised a fix last month, without specifying any exception for unsubscribed users.



> _Their obligations to those of us with unsubbed units ends after a reasonable period of demonstrated usability, regardless of what other promises they may have made._


You're drawing a distinction where none exists. Never was it stipulated that subscribers were entitled to additional software updates. If a point is reached at which it (arguably) becomes reasonable to discontinue support, this will apply to all owners of Series1 boxes.



> _There is no such thing as a "forever" contractual commitments. Those are indefinite commitments, and the law clearly states that either side can terminate their obligations with regard to indefinite commitment just by providing notice._


This is _not_ a legal issue. TiVo is legally entitled to discontinue Series1 support entirely, but that doesn't make it a good idea.


----------



## Rowsdower

MickeS said:


> How will you survive three weeks when the TiVo is off by an hour? The horror!


It isn't merely a matter of dealing with an incorrect clock for a few weeks (not that this will be easy for everyone). It means that *every* recurring manual recording must be reprogrammed. Some people have dozens. And if a fix is not provided, this will be necessary *four times per year* (unless someone is willing to deal with an incorrect clock throughout the entire DST period, in which case it can be knocked down to twice per year).


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## Rowsdower

timckelley said:


> I agree that unsubbed people, as nonpaying customers,


I reject that label. They paid for hardware advertised as functional in an unsubscribed state.



> _don't really have a justification for complaining,_


Sure they do. They were explicitly promised support. Would you also assert that owners of DVD players/recorders with "TiVo Basic" service are entitled to nothing unless they subscribe?


----------



## timckelley

TiVoStephen said:


> Many of us TiVo employees are Series1 users. We're not going to leave you high and dry.


I wonder how that crow tastes?   



Rowsdower said:


> Sure they do. They were explicitly promised support. Would you also assert that owners of DVD players/recorders with "TiVo Basic" service are entitled to nothing unless they subscribe?


Good point. Then I guess I retract what I said. These unsubbed people are the ones who are getting supremely screwed. I have an idea what it would have felt like, because I was unsubbed just last year, and I can imagine needing to redo all my SPs 4 times a year. I'd do it, but I'd grumble while doing so. And I'd worry that I might forget when DST is (old and new schedule), so I'd need some kind of reminder system to make sure.


----------



## jimnoblett

MickeS said:


> Only if you count "the service" as being manual time-based recordings.


I count the service as everything my box used to do. And you can make fun of those of us who have a problem with this situation if you like. It just shows what kind of person you are.


----------



## jimnoblett

n548gxg said:


> True, Lesson learn. Do not buy a Tivo.
> 
> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


+1


----------



## hornblowercat

n548gxg said:


> True, Lesson learn. Do not buy a Tivo.
> 
> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


Well, go get a cable DVR and then tell me about how much you enjoy that experience. With my cable DVR everytime there was a time change I had to manually first remove all my "record each episode" (remember, they don't really have a season pass) and then go into the next week after the time change and set it all up again. Sometimes I'd miss a show or two. What TiVo is offering for a solution isn't half of a pia as that is.

This is a fine line on sit on, really. I do truly sympathize with people paying subscriptions and have liftetime. On the other hand, how long can TiVo fully support a product?

It doesn't sound like TiVo is totally abandoning you. On the other hand I don't know how hard it would have been to provide an update.

I guess what I'm saying is it could be worst, you do have older models and this is what happens in the electronics industry.


----------



## timckelley

hornblowercat said:


> I guess what I'm saying is it could be worst, you do have older models and this is what happens in the electronics industry.


Then they should let us upgrade to a newer model (by allowing transfer of our lifetime sub). Otherwise we're just stuck with the old model. It'd be different if it were a 2 year sub, or a 3 year sub. At the end of the contract, if the model is not supported, we could upgrade. But I have a lifetime sub.

Compromise could be to allow transfer of the sub if we pay a fee. (To compensate for our sudden access to newer features.)


----------



## hornblowercat

timckelley said:


> Then they should let us upgrade to a newer model (by allowing transfer of our lifetime sub). Otherwise we're just stuck with the old model. It'd be different if it were a 2 year sub, or a 3 year sub. At the end of the contract, if the model is not supported, we could upgrade. But I have a lifetime sub.
> 
> Compromise could be to allow transfer of the sub if we pay a fee. (To compensate for our sudden access to newer features.)


Didn't they just offer lifetime transfer for the S3? I believe it's expired now, but they did offer it.

And to your point, I think it should be allowed, absolutely. But since they won't I guess your kind of stuck.

As I said, it be worst if you had a cable DVR.


----------



## timckelley

hornblowercat said:


> Didn't they just offer lifetime transfer for the S3? I believe it's expired now, but they did offer it.


You're right about the S3. I didn't do it, because

a) I have no plans to own a HD TiVo anytime soon, and
b) The S3 is so expensive (because of the HD features which I have no use for).

Now, upgrade to an S2 would have made more sense to me. I'd've been attracted to that.

Maybe at the time they made the upgrade offer to S3, they shoud disclosed their plans to leave us S1ers high and dry on the DST thing.   Maybe more upgrades would have happened.


----------



## bidger

murgatroyd said:


> I only pray that they continue to do so, and the actions of the complainers don't cause TiVo Inc. to cut the S1s off entirely.


I had to go back after I saw where Rowsdower quoted you to make certain you really said this.

I have some doubts about TiVo as a company and their ability to compete. I've questioned decisions they've made and policies they've chosen to implement, along with those they been slow to or chosen not to implement, but in the time I've been following them, overall I believe they've made an attempt to be fair and they value their reputation.

If you think there's a chance that TiVo would pull off what you propose over some criticism, I'd have to say you don't hold the same opinion of the company I do.


----------



## bicker

n548gxg said:


> True, Lesson learn. Do not buy a Tivo.


I don't think that's necessarily the lesson, because basically every other service operates basically the same way. Rather, the lesson to be learned is to factor in such equivocations when deciding whether any purchase you make is worth it. Too many customers go into purchases making the assumption, "This will be great; no problems; no worries." In reality, they should realize, "This will be just like every other service relationship, and (a) it's still worth it, or (b) it's not worth it."


----------



## bicker

Rowsdower said:


> Each of us has the right to criticize behavior of which we disapprove.


True, but that cuts both ways: murgatroyd has the right to rebut such criticism.



Rowsdower said:


> Many people won't purchase a current model if they believe that the company intends to abandon support in a few years.


This, I'm almost sure, is untrue. I've made the point several times here on TCF that the S3 is likely to be a short-lived device for cable customers (due to reasons that don't matter in this context), yet a very common retort has been, "*It'll be worth it for the 2-3 years of use we get out of it.*" (Now, of course, that doesn't mean those folks won't complain when they hit the brick wall 3 years from now, but they surely won't be justified in doing so, after expressing the sentiment that they had expressed to me. )


----------



## bicker

Rowsdower said:


> As others have noted, this isn't a legal issue. The fact that TiVo could stop supporting every DVR without running afoul of the law doesn't mean that this would be ethical or logical from a business standpoint.


With regard to 'logical from a business standpoint' -- I think we have to defer to TiVo on that one. They know their capacity; they know how much capital they have to expend; they know just how much S1 customers are worth. As an S1 customer, I would have to be a freaking robot to not place more emphasis on my own needs than is warranted by "logical" business perspective.

With regard to the 'ethical' standpoint -- Generally, with business transactions, you have to rely on what the law says, because we all have different ethical beliefs, and the law, and only the law, is the consensus view of ethics in society.


----------



## Rowsdower

bicker said:


> True, but that cuts both ways: murgatroyd has the right to rebut such criticism.


I never claimed otherwise. I was addressing murgatroyd's assertion that individuals not directly affected by the issue have no right to complain.

Murgatroyd also told me to "shut up." While there's no law against incivility, it isn't particularly constructive.



> _This, I'm almost sure, is untrue. I've made the point several times here on TCF that the S3 is likely to be a short-lived device for cable customers (due to reasons that don't matter in this context), yet a very common retort has been, "*It'll be worth it for the 2-3 years of use we get out of it.*" (Now, of course, that doesn't mean those folks won't complain when they hit the brick wall 3 years from now, but they surely won't be justified in doing so, after expressing the sentiment that they had expressed to me. )_


Early adopters of expensive products are hardly typical.



> _With regard to 'logical from a business standpoint' -- I think we have to defer to TiVo on that one._


TiVo doesn't claim that this was a business decision. Do you believe that TiVo is lying?



> _They know their capacity; they know how much capital they have to expend; they know just how much S1 customers are worth._


TiVo's most valuable asset is (and always has been) positive word of mouth. The company stands to save a few dollars in the short term, but sending the messages "we only support our customers when it directly benefits us" and "you're on your own when you outlive your usefulness" can only have a negative long-term impact.

But again, TiVo promised a fix and claims that attempts were made. If the lack of support actually stems from a business decision, TiVo is lying. I don't believe that.



> _With regard to the 'ethical' standpoint -- Generally, with business transactions, you have to rely on what the law says, because we all have different ethical beliefs, and the law, and only the law, is the consensus view of ethics in society._


Was it ethical to promise a fix and not provide one? Would it be ethical if TiVo were to cease all support of every DVR that it's sold (which evidently would be within the company's legal rights)?


----------



## timckelley

bicker said:


> yet a very common retort has been, "*It'll be worth it for the 2-3 years of use we get out of it.*"


The difference between that situation and this one, is that they are only buying a 1,2, or 3 year subscription. Some of us have lifetimes subscriptions on our S1. If my subscription were not lifetime, I could simply upgrade.


----------



## bicker

Rowsdower said:


> Early adopters of expensive products are hardly typical.


Indeed, which doesn't bode well for the S3, IMHO.



Rowsdower said:


> TiVo doesn't claim that this was a business decision. Do you believe that TiVo is lying?


Read what you just wrote.  Could you possibly craft a less honest question? Why not ask me if I have stopped beating my wife?



Rowsdower said:


> TiVo's most valuable asset is (and always has been) positive word of mouth.


The reality is that it might not be anywhere near enough to warrant what is necessary to support it. Folks keep on forgetting that there may not be a viable business model for a DVR not provided by a television service provider.



Rowsdower said:


> The company stands to save a few dollars in the short term, but sending the messages "we only support our customers when it directly benefits us" and "you're on your own when you outlive your usefulness" can only have a negative long-term impact.


Compared to what? For each decision there are at least two sides. If both have negative results, you have to make the choices that has the least amount of negative impact. That may not be the choice you or I might think or like.



Rowsdower said:


> But again, TiVo promised a fix and claims that attempts were made. If the lack of support actually stems from a business decision, TiVo is lying. I don't believe that.


Neither do I. Rather, I think you're reading too much into words than are intended, imposing too narrow of an interpretation to the words that is reasonable.



Rowsdower said:


> Was it ethical to promise a fix and not provide one? Would it be ethical if TiVo were to cease all support of every DVR that it's sold (which evidently would be within the company's legal rights)?


Yes, it actually is ethical. Sucks, doesn't it?


----------



## bicker

timckelley said:


> The difference between that situation and this one, is that they are only buying a 1,2, or 3 year subscription. Some of us have lifetimes subscriptions on our S1. If my subscription were not lifetime, I could simply upgrade.


Which again points out just why TiVo doesn't offer lifetime subscriptions any more. Some would suggest they never should have, but I'm not sure I'd say that, given that the negative impacts that folks are citing in this thread are probably insignificant in the grand scheme of things, especially in contrast to the alternative (from their standpoint).


----------



## bidger

They were competing with Replay TV at that time, bicker, who also offered the Lifetime option. After Replay TV dropped as their only viable standalone DVR competitor, TiVo dropped the Lifetime option.


----------



## murgatroyd

timckelley said:


> That won't work, because with unsubbed TiVos, there is no SP manager. You can have pseudo-SPs by way of manual repeating recordings, yes, but the way you maintain them/delete them is by going into the To Do List and deleting them. I believe if you try to schedule two manual repeating programs that conflict, it won't let you. There is no prioritization a la SP manager.


Aw, crap. I thought I had found a work-around. 

Jan


----------



## samo

bidger said:


> They were competing with Replay TV at that time, bicker, who also offered the Lifetime option. After Replay TV dropped as their only viable standalone DVR competitor, TiVo dropped the Lifetime option.


Not exactly. In a very beginning, Replay was offering free service, but was $700. Tivo had only monthly, but was $500. Neither one was selling well, so TiVo decided to add lifetime option for $200. Since Replay only had "free" service option that obviously went away with a machine, TiVo changed the wording on lifetime to make it a lifetime of the machine as well. Having both options helped TiVo to get the lead and go public before the dot.com bubble burst. Later, struggling Replay added monthly option, but it was too late - market crushed, TiVo stock plummeted and they could not issue IPO at any reasonable price.
The reason TiVo discontinued lifetime wasn't the Replay. At the time lifetime was discontinued TiVo had much stronger competitors already. The main reason lifetime was discontinued and minimum commitment was implemented is a structure of bonuses to CEO and other execs. Without lifetime option it makes it easier for them to play with numbers and write themselves a bigger check.


----------



## RealityCheck

samo said:


> Not exactly. In a very beginning, Replay was offering free service, but was $700. Tivo had only monthly, but was $500. Neither one was selling well, so TiVo decided to add lifetime option for $200. Since Replay only had "free" service option that obviously went away with a machine, TiVo changed the wording on lifetime to make it a lifetime of the machine as well. Having both options helped TiVo to get the lead and go public before the dot.com bubble burst. Later, struggling Replay added monthly option, but it was too late - market crushed, TiVo stock plummeted and they could not issue IPO at any reasonable price.
> The reason TiVo discontinued lifetime wasn't the Replay. At the time lifetime was discontinued TiVo had much stronger competitors already. The main reason lifetime was discontinued and minimum commitment was implemented is a structure of bonuses to CEO and other execs. Without lifetime option it makes it easier for them to play with numbers and write themselves a bigger check.


Amen. Tis the corporate way.


----------



## Rowsdower

bicker said:


> Read what you just wrote.  Could you possibly craft a less honest question? Why not ask me if I have stopped beating my wife?


Huh?! TiVo claims that its "engineers continued to investigate & test all possibilities up to the last moment before messaging could be given to the public." You've suggested that the company actually abandoned the endeavor when it was deemed cost-prohibitive. For your theory to be correct (which I don't believe), wouldn't that mean that TiVo is lying?



> _Folks keep on forgetting that there may not be a viable business model for a DVR not provided by a television service provider._


I haven't forgotten that. I'm not sure that TiVo will ever become profitable (and it wouldn't surprise me if someone like Comcast were to swallow it up). I _do_ know that alienating paying customers won't help matters.



> _For each decision there are at least two sides. If both have negative results, you have to make the choices that has the least amount of negative impact. That may not be the choice you or I might think or like._


Have I not clearly expressed my opinion that this situation stands to cost TiVo more in the long run that it saves the company now?



> _Yes, it actually is ethical [for TiVo to promise a fix and not provide one and cease all support of every DVR that it has sold]. Sucks, doesn't it?_


I'm sorry, but I disagree.

ethical != lawful


----------



## murgatroyd

Rowsdower said:


> I don't see why that would be unreasonable. Each of us has the right to criticize behavior of which we disapprove. Everyone who wants TiVo to succeed has a stake in this potential public relations nightmare.


Yes indeed, which is why I am so POed at a bunch of you guys making a huge stink out of losing one feature on an obsolete machine. I don't want TiVo to try to "fix" the problem by some half-assed measure that will break my TiVos. I have already seen one thread in the DirecTV area where someone was complaining that the DST fix has screwed up his DTiVo.



> Do you expect them to keep their promises (such as the one made last month in this very thread)?


I (unlike others here) expect that when TiVoJerry and TiVoStephen say that a fix was attempted and a decision was made that it couldn't be done, then the fix is beyond the resources that TiVo, Inc. can reasonably be expected to spend on an obsolete product. I resent seeing certain folks calling them liars. We have a rare opportunity to communicate with TiVo employees here and what happens, a bunch of selfish, vocal people call them liars and give them all sorts of abuse.



> So does the perception that TiVo doesn't stand behind its products. Many people won't purchase a current model if they believe that the company intends to abandon support in a few years. That's the message that TiVo is sending. That's why this stands to affect all of us (even if we don't own Series1 units).
> 
> There was no need to prioritize. TiVo should have updated *all* U.S. models (as promised), and they had 19 months to do so.


You've got to be kidding me.

If you had a Series 3 or a Series2 and your patch didn't get done because TiVo had spent all its resources patching the (obsolete) Series 1 machines, you would be screaming even louder than you are now.

All companies have to prioritize what gets done and decide how to allocate resources to different projects. It is part of doing business. No company has the resources to do everything they 'might wanna do'.

You are dreaming if you think otherwise.

Jan


----------



## murgatroyd

Rowsdower said:


> Oh, really?
> 
> Are you seriously suggesting that TiVo would discontinue support out of spite?


No, I am suggesting that in a case like this a company might decide that it is too much trouble to try and keep your business -- that keeping you as a happy customer is more expensive to the company than the revenue you bring in. A company which is not prosperous might decide that in order to stay in business, it needs to cut off the old customers who are no longer providing revenue. If I give TiVo $84 bucks a year and it costs them $100 to give me service, then they can probably scrape by with the small loss and write it off as 'goodwill' because I will enthusiastically promote TiVo. But if I only give TiVo $84 and it costs them $300 a year to provide me service, an accountant might look askance at this, and the more the cost of providing service to me increases, the more the accountant may say 'look, we have to cut our losses here, we are hemmoraging money'.

I read the posts here, and I can hear my mom complaining "Do you think money grows on trees?"

Maybe you grew up well-off and you never wanted for anything -- but those of us who have seen hard times understand that sometimes you only have so many resources and when that is true, until you can bring in more income somehow, you have to pick and choose what the money gets spent on.

I wonder where you guys think TiVo is getting this unlimited stock of resources that would be required to fix all the problems that people complain about on this forum. The concept of having a budget seems to be completely foreign to you.

Jan


----------



## RealityCheck

Thank God for class action lawsuits. They are the only defense for customers being reamed by one-sided contracts. Companies can put all the "out clauses" they want into a contract, but rarely do the courts uphold these conditions in totality. Outside of a bankruptcy setting, courts do expect companies to act in good faith with customers. The alternative is major punitive damages being awarded. Regardless how lawyers profit from these suits, a lot of good does come out of it for the customer (just not the cash payments that the lawyers get).

I purchased an S3, but I now realized it might have been a mistake. The S3 is great, but I now know not to even hope TiVo upgrades the machine capabilities with a PC Card, or software update.

I won't blame the Tivo PR people who post updates here. They're just messengers; as well as generally engaging people. It's simply sad to see the powers that be in the ivory tower are real jerks. 

TiVo better pray Apple doesn't come out with a full fledged AppleTV DVR. If Apple brings a DVR to market w/o sub fees, TiVo will have a real fight. I hate to sound negative here (as I really do love TiVo and the people I've conversed with there), but they really should be ashamed to basically abandon customers who continue to buoy the bottom line. Had TiVo updated their hardware more often, and added features; they would have sold more upgrades. Funny this is, it's more profitable to keep customers on their existing hardware long term. 

Those S1's are pure profit centers requiring no subsidies. It would cost them MORE to move them over to S2s, as TiVo has to toss a year's worth of revenue for the box rebate. Unless TiVo comes out and states a legit hardware tie to the clock, you can't convince me they can't patch for DST. I'm sure the engineers probably share S1 owners' frustrations. They serve at the mercy of their overlords, and have to follow orders.

Breakdown of S1 revenue:

Box Fee: $500-700
Lifetime: $199
Montly: $12.95

potential revenue: $1087.80 (7 years at $12.95/month) + box fee (which received ZERO rebate): = $1580.70-1780.80

With lifetime? $799-$999

With current subsidies, TiVo needs at least TWO YEARS from the S2 customers to recover the rebate and make a profit. Moving those S1 customers to an S2 right now sure sounds foolish to me. A patch is by far cheaper. That's why DirecTV paid TiVo for it on the D* S1s. Moving customers to an S3 at full price, but with a free lifetime transfer is another story....


----------



## jimnoblett

murgatroyd said:


> Yes indeed, which is why I am so POed at a bunch of you guys making a huge stink out of losing one feature on an obsolete machine. I don't want TiVo to try to "fix" the problem by some half-assed measure that will break my TiVos. I have already seen one thread in the DirecTV area where someone was complaining that the DST fix has screwed up his DTiVo.
> 
> Jan


I see. This situation doesn't affect you, so we should be good boys and girls, and be quiet so we don't cause a problem for you. Please tell me why your TiVo operating correctly is more important than my TiVo operating correctly?


----------



## hornblowercat

bicker said:


> Which again points out just why TiVo doesn't offer lifetime subscriptions any more. Some would suggest they never should have, but I'm not sure I'd say that, given that the negative impacts that folks are citing in this thread are probably insignificant in the grand scheme of things, especially in contrast to the alternative (from their standpoint).


I haven't looked at all the legal mumbo jumbo that TiVo has regarding lifetime subscriptions but I'm surprised that they haven't just abandond them completely. I suppose they must really be tied in either that or they are a much better company then some people here seem to indicate.

I love to use the credit card as a referrence in these conversations. No matter what you see on the agreement somewhere, somehow it does say that these terms can be changed for any reason at anytime. Now I don't know if people who have lifetime agreements have their original contract but it wouldn't surprise me to find that in there.

Again, not being unsympathetic to S1 owneres, I think it could be worst.


----------



## murgatroyd

bidger said:


> I had to go back after I saw where Rowsdower quoted you to make certain you really said this.
> 
> I have some doubts about TiVo as a company and their ability to compete. I've questioned decisions they've made and policies they've chosen to implement, along with those they been slow to or chosen not to implement, but in the time I've been following them, overall I believe they've made an attempt to be fair and they value their reputation.
> 
> If you think there's a chance that TiVo would pull off what you propose over some criticism, I'd have to say you don't hold the same opinion of the company I do.


I believe that TiVo, Inc. has acted in good faith, and that when TiVoJerry and TiVoStephen said that an attempt has been made to provide a fix and they were unable to do so, they were telling the truth.

I think we are basically in agreement. You said:



> As an S1 customer, I would have to be a freaking robot to not place more emphasis on my own needs than is warranted by "logical" business perspective.


If the fix was cheap and easy, then yes, I'd expect them to do it. But I know too much about programming to expect _any_ fix for an S1 to be cheap and easy. I don't know that much about programming, but even I can understand why they just can't fire up the development environment for the S1 and fix it.

Jan


----------



## murgatroyd

jimnoblett said:


> I see. This situation doesn't affect you, so we should be good boys and girls, and be quiet so we don't cause a problem for you. Please tell me why your TiVo operating correctly is more important than my TiVo operating correctly?


If I have 90+ Season Passes and three Manual Recordings, doesn't it make the most sense for me to just delete those three Manual Recordings and use an SP or WL instead? In that case, I have a perfectly _functioning_ TiVo that (as the TiVo employees have said) only has a cosmetic problem with an on-screen display.

Let me give you an analogy. You'll hate it, but heck, you can just heap more abuse on me afterwards, so who cares?

My utility company had to shut off my power on Thursday to replace a light pole in my neighborhood.

I went to the store and got batteries, we made sure our emergency lanterns were working, had batteries for the radio and CD players, etc.

We had no TV. To 'watch' the TV news at 11 PM we had to pick up the audio with my shortwave radio.

Since one of my shows didn't repeat on that channel, I had to go out in the Guide and search for repeats elsewhere. Yes, it was annoying.

But you know what? We survived. We lucked out, a lot of stuff I watch was in repeats so I wasn't recording it anyway. And I'll see the missing show eventually on the other channel.

The way some of the guys here are talking, it sounds like they would have expected PG&E to provide UPSes to every household in the neighborhood that didn't already have one, just so none of our recording schedules would be disrupted. 

The plain fact is, crap happens, and you are better off if you can help yourself. Since you have all these shows which have bum Guide Data, why don't you put some heat on TiVo that will actually cause some good, like getting Tribune to provide better Guide Data for all the shows which prompt you to use Manual Recordings? And why not help yourselves by paying some attention to your TiVo's To Do List instead of expecting everything to happen automagically?

Jan


----------



## hornblowercat

murgatroyd said:


> IIf the fix was cheap and easy, then yes, I'd expect them to do it. *But I know too much about programming to expect any fix for an S1 to be cheap and easy. I don't know that much about programming, but even I can understand why they just can't fire up the development environment for the S1 and fix it.*
> 
> Jan


Color me confused. 

Do you know about programming or not?

I read this to my wife and she said somebody is drinking.


----------



## sfhub

bicker said:


> Absolutely correct. My guess is that they'll respond to SDV with the introduction of the S4 and invite S3 owners to transfer lifetime for a small fee.


Yes, a small fee of $799 + $199.


----------



## Rowsdower

murgatroyd said:


> Yes indeed, which is why I am so POed at a bunch of you guys making a huge stink out of losing one feature on an obsolete machine.


1. "Accurate clock" is a fundamental feature. You're making it sound as though something along the lines of "Showcases" was lost.

2. "Obsolete" is a rather strong term. It isn't synonymous with "not the most recent."

The car that I drive was discontinued in favor a new design, but that doesn't make it obsolete.



> _I don't want TiVo to try to "fix" the problem by some half-assed measure that will break my TiVos._


Nor do I. I want them to develop and release a stable software update (as they've had 19 months to do).



> _I have already seen one thread in the DirecTV area where someone was complaining that the DST fix has screwed up his DTiVo._


This guy? That was due to a hack that he needed to reinstall.



> _I (unlike others here) expect that when TiVoJerry and TiVoStephen say that a fix was attempted and a decision was made that it couldn't be done,_


Whoa, that isn't what was said! TiVoJerry stated that TiVo's "engineers continued to investigate & test all possibilities up to the last moment before messaging could be given to the public." That means that they ran out of time. No one from the company has indicated that all efforts have ceased.



> _then the fix is beyond the resources that TiVo, Inc. can reasonably be expected to spend on an obsolete product._


TiVo continues to bill owners of this "obsolete product" on a monthly basis.



> _I resent seeing certain folks calling them liars._


So do I. Please don't lump together all of the critics. I believe that TiVo messed up (and failed to deliver on a promise), but I don't believe that we've been lied to.



> _You've got to be kidding me.
> 
> If you had a Series 3 or a Series2 and your patch didn't get done because TiVo had spent all its resources patching the (obsolete) Series 1 machines, you would be screaming even louder than you are now._


You're missing my point. I'm not arguing that it was illogical to develop the updates in reverse-chronological order. I'm saying that it shouldn't have made a difference (because there was plenty of time to update *all* of the U.S. models).



> _No company has the resources to do everything they 'might wanna do'._


...and promise to do? You've opined that TiVo has kept its word, but you've yet to explain away that assurance posted in this very thread just last month. Note that TiVoStephen didn't merely promise that the engineers would _attempt_ to develop a fix. With 18 months' notice (and less than a month remaining before DST was to begin), shouldn't they have had a fairly clear picture of how things were shaping up?

But again, I don't believe that this was a lie. I believe that TiVo waited too long to begin developing a software update and ran out of time. Hopefully, the complaints posted here (including the unfortunately nasty ones) will reassure them that people care about this issue and that it's worth their continued efforts to resolve.



> _No, I am suggesting that in a case like this a company might decide that it is too much trouble to try and keep your business -- that keeping you as a happy customer is more expensive to the company than the revenue you bring in._


If true, that would apply regardless of any comments posted on a message board. You suggested that the complaints might actually convince TiVo to discontinue support.



> _A company which is not prosperous might decide that in order to stay in business, it needs to cut off the old customers who are no longer providing revenue._


Non-lifetime standalone Series1 subscribers provide revenue.



> _If I give TiVo $84 bucks a year and it costs them $100 to give me service, then they can probably scrape by with the small loss and write it off as 'goodwill' because I will enthusiastically promote TiVo._


revenue != profit



> _Maybe you grew up well-off and you never wanted for anything_


No, I didn't. Perhaps that's why it upsets me to see people who paid large sums of money (some of whom continue to pay) denied the fix that they were promised.



> _I don't know that much about programming, but even I can understand why they just can't fire up the development environment for the S1 and fix it._


And yet, the Series1 DirecTV models were updated.



> _If I have 90+ Season Passes and three Manual Recordings, doesn't it make the most sense for me to just delete those three Manual Recordings and use an SP or WL instead? In that case, I have a perfectly functioning TiVo that (as the TiVo employees have said) only has a cosmetic problem with an on-screen display._


Yes, we've established that *you* are only slightly affected by the issue. How does that negate the fact that others are affected to a far greater extent?


----------



## CrispyCritter

jimnoblett said:


> I see. This situation doesn't affect you, so we should be good boys and girls, and be quiet so we don't cause a problem for you. Please tell me why your TiVo operating correctly is more important than my TiVo operating correctly?


I'll believe you mean this argument when you start complaining about each and every post by Rowsdower. (For the record, I believe Rowsdower and murgatroyd have every right to their posts here, though I wish Rowsdower would have combined a few of his posts together!)

I have 2 S1s (along with S2s and an S3) so according to you I can comment. I view all this as unfortunate, but all in all the major actions of a subscribed TiVo are unaffected; this is a minor problem of a minor aspect of what TiVo offers, and there are work-arounds so it's only an inconvenience. Over the 7 years I've had an S1 TiVo, I've had many more interruptions of power, and many more interruptions of cable service (total time more than the 3-4 weeks of inconvenience here) than I've had interruptions of TiVo service. Yet somehow we hold TiVo to a much higher standard than other companies. Perhaps that's because they've done such a good job over the years?


----------



## CrispyCritter

Rowsdower said:


> Yes, we've established that *you* are only slightly affected by the issue. How does that negate the fact that others are affected to a far greater extent?


I have seen very few of those people post. I would guess far fewer than 1% of all non-DirectV TiVo users are substantially affected (would miss a recording if they didn't take manual action). If you believe otherwise, start a poll up and gather some actual data.


----------



## sfhub

Let's put it this way, TiVo does not have a contractual obligation to fix DST for S1 users but neither do TiVo users have a contractual obligation to:

1) not launch nasty complaints in public forums
2) not bad mouth tivo every chance they can
3) not stop recommending to their friends and family

It was TiVo's decision to not update DST for S1. Clearly they have to deal with the negative aspects of that decision.

You folks who have a different opinion on this are just going to have to deal with people complaining and venting. If you don't like it, blame TiVo, there were almost no complaints (just anxiety) before their final decision came down the pipe.

TiVo can do what they want and TiVo users can complain all they want.


----------



## samo

> And yet, the Series1 DirecTV models were updated.


Don't mix apples and oranges. First TiVo is contractually obligated to provide the update. If they didn't provide the update on time, then DirecTV would withhold the payment. 
Second, patch for DirecTV S1 required the download of new software version. It was done on DirecTV dime. Since software for SA S1 is essentially identical to DirecTV version, TiVo would have to do version update and to spend money for this download that would take several weeks to accomplish because most S1s have to be updated by phone call.
Third, absolute majority of S1s are lifetime subs past 4 years amortization period and represent pure loss to TiVo. It is to TiVo benefit to piss off S1 lifetimers and try to induce them to go away.
TiVo reps here didn't lie. If fix could have been done by just changing something in a guide data stream, TiVo probably would do it not to create PR problem and prevent extra calls to CS centers. But since version download was required bean counters decided to just do nothing and made engineers look like fools in a process.


----------



## jimnoblett

murgatroyd said:


> If I have 90+ Season Passes and three Manual Recordings, doesn't it make the most sense for me to just delete those three Manual Recordings and use an SP or WL instead? In that case, I have a perfectly _functioning_ TiVo that (as the TiVo employees have said) only has a cosmetic problem with an on-screen display.
> 
> Let me give you an analogy. You'll hate it, but heck, you can just heap more abuse on me afterwards, so who cares?
> 
> My utility company had to shut off my power on Thursday to replace a light pole in my neighborhood.
> 
> I went to the store and got batteries, we made sure our emergency lanterns were working, had batteries for the radio and CD players, etc.
> 
> We had no TV. To 'watch' the TV news at 11 PM we had to pick up the audio with my shortwave radio.
> 
> Since one of my shows didn't repeat on that channel, I had to go out in the Guide and search for repeats elsewhere. Yes, it was annoying.
> 
> But you know what? We survived. We lucked out, a lot of stuff I watch was in repeats so I wasn't recording it anyway. And I'll see the missing show eventually on the other channel.
> 
> The way some of the guys here are talking, it sounds like they would have expected PG&E to provide UPSes to every household in the neighborhood that didn't already have one, just so none of our recording schedules would be disrupted.
> 
> The plain fact is, crap happens, and you are better off if you can help yourself. Since you have all these shows which have bum Guide Data, why don't you put some heat on TiVo that will actually cause some good, like getting Tribune to provide better Guide Data for all the shows which prompt you to use Manual Recordings? And why not help yourselves by paying some attention to your TiVo's To Do List instead of expecting everything to happen automagically?
> 
> Jan


You did not answer my question. Why is YOUR TiVo working correctly any more important than MY TiVo working correctly?


----------



## sfhub

CrispyCritter said:


> I view all this as unfortunate, but all in all the major actions of a subscribed TiVo are unaffected; this is a minor problem of a minor aspect of what TiVo offers, and there are work-arounds so it's only an inconvenience.


Whether it is a major or minor convenience depends on your usage, but it definitely sets a very bad precedent for the future.

It certainly is a psychological shift for many users to realize TiVo is no longer the good company that consistently tries to do right by their customer. Now they are just another big bad member of corporate America looking at the bottom line and not so much at the brand loyalty that their company was built on.


----------



## Fraser+Dief

logic88 said:


> AFAIK, the "patches" that my Linux systems received were new zoneinfo files. No kernel changes or compiling was needed.


Yup. This should be a dead easy fix. As evidenced by everything else being fixed easily. Most things had this fixed long long ago.

And even if tivo wasn't relying on system stuff, it's still simple '
if year >= 2007
if ( month is march and day is second sunday of month )
if time is 2:00am then time = 3:00am
else handle DST the way we always did before'

type stuff.

It's not complicated. It just takes will, and effort to get it done.

But somebody looked and decided it was a cosmetic issue for most customers, so screw the S1 users who it would affect.


----------



## Rowsdower

CrispyCritter said:


> I'll believe you mean this argument when you start complaining about each and every post by Rowsdower.


Why would he do that?



> _For the record, I believe Rowsdower and murgatroyd have every right to their posts here, though I wish Rowsdower would have combined a few of his posts together!_


I've continually combined text from the same author. My previous post quoted four separate replies by murgatroyd.



> _I have 2 S1s (along with S2s and an S3) so according to you I can comment._


You seem to have misunderstood jimnoblett's response. He wasn't asserting that unaffected individuals aren't entitled to comment. He was criticizing murgatroyd (who _is_ affected, but to a lesser extent than many) for downplaying others' concerns.



> _I view all this as unfortunate, but all in all the major actions of a subscribed TiVo are unaffected; this is a minor problem of a minor aspect of what TiVo offers, and there are work-arounds so it's only an inconvenience._


I don't regard viewing a program guide with accurate times as a minor aspect of a DVR's functionality or the inability to do so as a minor problem. YMMV.



> _Over the 7 years I've had an S1 TiVo, I've had many more interruptions of power, and many more interruptions of cable service (total time more than the 3-4 weeks of inconvenience here) than I've had interruptions of TiVo service. Yet somehow we hold TiVo to a much higher standard than other companies. Perhaps that's because they've done such a good job over the years?_


Precisely. People who post comments along the lines of "Microsoft messed up too!" are missing the point.



> _I would guess far fewer than 1% of all non-DirectV TiVo users are substantially affected (would miss a recording if they didn't take manual action). If you believe otherwise, start a poll up and gather some actual data._


I dispute your definition of "substantially affected." In my assessment, the inability to view a program guide with accurate times is substantial. By my criteria, most active users of U.S. standalone Series1 units are substantially affected.

I don't know what percentage of all non-DirecTV TiVo users fit your specified criterion, nor do I intend to pull numbers out of thin air or conduct an unscientific survey.

I do know that all of these individuals were promised a fix and haven't received one.


----------



## Rowsdower

samo said:


> Don't mix apples and oranges. First TiVo is contractually obligated to provide the update. If they didn't provide the update on time, then DirecTV would withhold the payment.


I was addressing murgatroyd's claim that "they just can't fire up the development environment for the S1 and fix it," not implying that the two situations were fiscally comparable.



> _TiVo reps here didn't lie._


If your speculation is accurate (and the company's failure to provide an update is due not to technical reasons but to financial ones), TiVoJerry lied. I don't believe that.

If a deliberate decision to withhold the fix was made, wouldn't this have been determined before last month? Why would TiVoStephen have promised one if the company had no intention of providing it? This points to an honest screw-up.


----------



## Gregor

Fraser+Dief said:


> Yup. This should be a dead easy fix. As evidenced by everything else being fixed easily. Most things had this fixed long long ago.
> 
> And even if tivo wasn't relying on system stuff, it's still simple '
> if year >= 2007
> if ( month is march and day is second sunday of month )
> if time is 2:00am then time = 3:00am
> else handle DST the way we always did before'
> 
> type stuff.
> 
> It's not complicated. It just takes will, and effort to get it done.
> 
> But somebody looked and decided it was a cosmetic issue for most customers, so screw the S1 users who it would affect.


The DST changes are for this year only, iirc. If Congress wants to make it permanent it's going to have to be patched again.

I'm perfectly happy with my S1 not displaying time correctly, as long as the SPs work. Tivo has better things to work on.


----------



## jsmeeker

no.. the law makes it "permanent". If they want to change it, they have to pass another law. the law simply requires a report to determine if they should keep it the same or change it again. But keeping it the same requires no action.


Anyway, it's almost time!! woo hoo


----------



## CrispyCritter

Rowsdower said:


> Why would he do that?
> 
> 
> 
> For the record, I believe Rowsdower and murgatroyd have every right to their posts here, though I wish Rowsdower would have combined a few of his posts together!
> 
> 
> 
> I've continually combined text from the same author. My previous post quoted four separate replies by murgatroyd.
Click to expand...

I was referring to 6 successive posts in a 2 minute span.

I'm sorry, I was much more sympathetic to your arguments when you started. You have now made it very evident that you are not interested in finding facts or debating points, you are interested only in presenting your same argument over and over and over and over. I will not be responding to you again.


----------



## Rowsdower

CrispyCritter said:


> I was referring to 6 successive posts in a 2 minute span.


I was responding to messages by five different authors. Had I combined my replies into one single post, it would have been considerably easier for people to mix up the attributions and considerably less convenient for any of the authors to reply to me. I can't imagine what advantage there would have been.



> _I'm sorry, I was much more sympathetic to your arguments when you started. You have now made it very evident that you are not interested in finding facts or debating points, you are interested only in presenting your same argument over and over and over and over._


I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I don't understand what distinction you're drawing. I'm debating points by expressing my opinions. Each of my questions/comments is written in response to someone else's. Any repetition is due to the similarity of the text to which I'm replying. Not everyone reads an entire thread (especially one of this length), so it isn't unusual for the same ground to be covered more than once. At no point have I repeated an argument purely for the sake of repeating it.



> _I will not be responding to you again._


That's your prerogative, but I don't know where this is coming from.


----------



## bicker

Rowsdower said:


> For your theory to be correct (which I don't believe), wouldn't that mean that TiVo is lying?


No, it actually wouldn't.



Rowsdower said:


> I haven't forgotten that.


You could have fooled me.



Rowsdower said:


> I _do_ know that alienating paying customers won't help matters.


You don't "know" what they could do that would achieve all reasonable objectives without exceeding any current limitations, either.



Rowsdower said:


> Have I not clearly expressed my opinion that this situation stands to cost TiVo more in the long run that it saves the company now?


Without proving it. You really don't "know" whether there is an alternative that would save TiVo more in the long-run.



Rowsdower said:


> I'm sorry, but I disagree.


That's your prerogative.



Rowsdower said:


> ethical != lawful


Of course: Ethical = whatever Rowsdower says is ethical.... 

Let me know when you're willing to grant others (i.e., TiVo) the right to live in accordance with their own values instead of presuming to force yours upon them (that's assuming that you'd actually do as you expect others to, if you were in _their _position).

:down:


----------



## bicker

murgatroyd said:


> I (unlike others here) expect that when TiVoJerry and TiVoStephen say that a fix was attempted and a decision was made that it couldn't be done, then the fix is beyond the resources that TiVo, Inc. can reasonably be expected to spend on an obsolete product. I resent seeing certain folks calling them liars. We have a rare opportunity to communicate with TiVo employees here and what happens, a bunch of selfish, vocal people call them liars and give them all sorts of abuse.


Amen. Be careful, though. You've now committed the sin of expressing a reasonable perspective on this issue.


----------



## bicker

RealityCheck said:


> courts do expect companies to act in good faith with customers


Indeed, and good thing that courts select jurors based on how impartial they are. It is a bit spooky sometimes to see how some folks have trouble accepting that negative results could still be the result of good faith efforts.



RealityCheck said:


> I purchased an S3, but I now realized it might have been a mistake. The S3 is great, but I now know not to even hope TiVo upgrades the machine capabilities with a PC Card, or software update.


I'm sorry it took you this long to realize that, and I sure hope you carry forward this knowledge into your future business dealings with all companies, because this is standard practice in the real world. Product are launched, they're supported for a while, and then support for them ends. Reasonable people know that nothing is forever.



RealityCheck said:


> I won't blame the Tivo PR people who post updates here. They're just messengers; as well as generally engaging people. It's simply sad to see the powers that be in the ivory tower are real jerks.


Nice bit of judgmentalism there. You've finally got that "Let's Dump on THE MAN" mojo into gear, eh? Here's a reality check for you: If you'd make irresponsible decisions as director of a corporation, you'd be personally, financially liable to the shareholders for your negligence.



RealityCheck said:


> TiVo better pray Apple doesn't come out with a full fledged AppleTV DVR.


They've already indicated what direction they're going in, and if you believe for a minute that they'll operate any differently than TiVo does, once their product is mature, then you're just setting yourself up for the same disappointment you expressed above regarding the S3.



RealityCheck said:


> If Apple brings a DVR to market w/o sub fees, TiVo will have a real fight.


And Best Buy will be in big trouble if Santa Claus comes to town. What the heck makes you think they're not going to require subscription fees. It's the only proven-viable business model for DVRs. If Sony and LG couldn't make a go of it, Apple won't be any better.



RealityCheck said:


> I hate to sound negative here (as I really do love TiVo and the people I've conversed with there), but they really should be ashamed to basically abandon customers who continue to buoy the bottom line.


As of the last numbers I saw, S1 customers make a very insignificant contribution to the bottom-line.


----------



## bicker

sfhub said:


> Yes, a small fee of $799 + $199.


Ayup.


----------



## bicker

Rowsdower said:


> Obsolete is a rather strong term. It isn't synonymous with "not the most recent."


That's true. However, the S1 is obsolete. If it had a display screen, it would be illegal for it to be manufactured and sold in the country, today. That's beyond obsolete.



Rowsdower said:


> The car that I drive was discontinued in favor a new design, but that doesn't make it obsolete.


Yet, for many older models, if you needed a part, you'd wouldn't reasonable be able to expect to get it from the manufacturer, after a certain period of time. Trying getting Chrysler to provide you a factory-new replacement for the steering column of a 1956 Rambler.



Rowsdower said:


> TiVo continues to bill owners of this "obsolete product" on a monthly basis.


S1 subscribers still receive program guide data. There is no reasonable reason to terminate that level of support. Even your Chrysler dealer will do an oil change on a Rambler.



Rowsdower said:


> I believe that TiVo messed up (and failed to deliver on a promise), but I don't believe that we've been lied to.


Indeed, and I believe TiVo's mistake was to make a statement that could have been misinterpreted as an iron-clad commitment that a full and complete remedy would unquestionably be provided. That is the extent the error that was made AFAIC.



Rowsdower said:


> I believe that TiVo waited too long to begin developing a software update and ran out of time.


I think that's a red herring. They're not "out of time" to fix it for the Fall or next Spring. Yet, I bet that TiVoJerry would confirm that S1 owners shouldn't be expecting a fix, even then.



Rowsdower said:


> Hopefully, the complaints posted here (including the unfortunately nasty ones) will reassure them that people care about this issue and that it's worth their continued efforts to resolve.


Or the opposite.


----------



## bicker

CrispyCritter said:


> Yet somehow we hold TiVo to a much higher standard than other companies. Perhaps that's because they've done such a good job over the years?


I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. I see indications of folks holding unreasonable expectations regarding what they feel they're entitled to from companies, regardless of the company's prior performance. It's a national pastime, IMHO.


----------



## ksdavis

I haven't posted here in... years, literally. But I have to say I'm dismayed by the attitudes of some on this thread saying that S1 users just need to "grow up" and get a new TiVo, stop complaining about the cosmetic issue, etc.

Folks drawing analogies to Microsoft products, or applications like Quicken, are missing the boat. Those of us (like me) who paid $199 for a lifetime subscription for our S1 SA TiVos did so in a transacton with TiVo to receive lifetime service for the operating life of our hardware (not our lives.) I would be even more upset if I were paying TiVo the $12/month or whatever for ongoing guide data and service.

I mean heck, I upgraded my TiVo with a TiVoNet ethernet card last year, so I'm not even costing TiVo the minimal dial-up cost with UUNet or whoever ran their modem infrastructure. But I do not think it's reasonable, as someone who paid for lifetime support, that TiVo would fix this.

If they can't fix this this spring... I for one can live with it and understand they fixed the largest part of the product base. But if they don't try to fix it for fall, or next spring? As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to take a hard look back at my terms of service. I'd settle for the opportunity to transfer my S1 lifetime service to an S2 unit that I would have to purchase (even at a nominal fee), or a refund of a reasonable portion of my lifetime sub.

I know by saying this newer TiVo'ites will be up in arms about "what did you expect?" in terms of support. My answer is simple: if you're taking revenue from S1s and you've sold lifetime subs, the devices should be expected to function as they were when bought.

And for those who say I "should've" transferred my lifetime sub to an S2 a couple of years back when I had the chance -- frankly, if I'd known something like this would happen with DST, I either would have chosen to make the switch or to go the MythTV route at that time. I think under the circumstances, TiVo should open back up the subscription transfer.


----------



## n548gxg

I will say this again. Do not buy Tivo Products. They abandoned Series I owners today.

Tomorrow, they will abandoned Series II owners and so forth.

My God, even Replay TV who havent been in business for years issued a fix.

Just move on and remember who treated you right.


----------



## stujac

Trying to read through all the threads and I'm still not sure what's going on. TiVo refuses to update the box to the correct time? The SP's will work? I can't believe that of my three DVR's, the Tivo is the stupid one. The Comcast updated, the Panasonic DMR E-95 updated and the TiVo is still an hour behind? It'll stay that way for 3 more weeks? Embarrassing for Tivo. They went from the most reliable, most intelligent DVR in my rack to the stupidest.


----------



## n548gxg

stujac said:


> Trying to read through all the threads and I'm still not sure what's going on. TiVo refuses to update the box to the correct time? The SP's will work? I can't believe that of my three DVR's, the Tivo is the stupid one. The Comcast updated, the Panasonic DMR E-95 updated and the TiVo is still an hour behind? It'll stay that way for 3 more weeks? Embarrassing for Tivo. They went from the most reliable, most intelligent DVR in my rack to the stupidest.


Believe it. Remember it when you want to buy your next DVR.


----------



## IHDB

n548gxg said:


> I will say this again. Do not buy Tivo Products. They abandoned Series I owners today.


No they didn't. They were (financially and/or technically) unable to provide a fix for a problem that was created through no fault of their own.


----------



## hornblowercat

IHDB said:


> No they didn't. They were (financially and/or technically) unable to provide a fix for a problem that was created through no fault of their own.


+1 :up:

n548gxg read this:

* Can this DST problem be avoided?

Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1, but unfortunately none exist. While we know that it is not ideal to adjust manual recordings for these three weeks, unfortunately it is the only alternative for those customers who rely upon VCR-style program scheduling. We apologize for this inconvenience.*

http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=c04f6d88-895e-4334-b87f-427756927143

They did try to fix it. They couldn't, unless you are calling them liars.

And let me ask you this. What do you think happens with Cable DVR's with the time change? Having owned one for two years during the normal time changes I can tell you that everytime their was a time change I had to manually delete all shows I had set to "record all" and set them up for recording again. And this wasn't that easy of a taks as everytime I deleted a show it brought me back to live tv so I would have to go all through the menus again.

I'm sympathetic with you guys but to start saying "Don't buy TiVo" you really don't know how bad the cable DVR's are in comparison. Think about it.


----------



## jimnoblett

CrispyCritter said:


> I'll believe you mean this argument when you start complaining about each and every post by Rowsdower. (For the record, I believe Rowsdower and murgatroyd have every right to their posts here, though I wish Rowsdower would have combined a few of his posts together!)
> 
> I have 2 S1s (along with S2s and an S3) so according to you I can comment. I view all this as unfortunate, but all in all the major actions of a subscribed TiVo are unaffected; this is a minor problem of a minor aspect of what TiVo offers, and there are work-arounds so it's only an inconvenience. Over the 7 years I've had an S1 TiVo, I've had many more interruptions of power, and many more interruptions of cable service (total time more than the 3-4 weeks of inconvenience here) than I've had interruptions of TiVo service. Yet somehow we hold TiVo to a much higher standard than other companies. Perhaps that's because they've done such a good job over the years?


Why would I complain about Rowsdower's posts? He isn't telling me that my problem is only a minor inconvenience, as others have done.

I haven't said that anyone couldn't comment. Please quote the message where you saw that. Anybody that is registered on this board has the ability to comment. My objection is to those who believe that I should sit down and shut up, because this is ONLY a minor inconvenience. They do not know how I use my TiVo and what features are important to me. I paid my money the same as everyone else, and have the right to complain if I feel that I am getting screwed.

I don't hold TiVo to a higher standard than anyone else, but I do expect the service that I paid for not to lose features.


----------



## jimnoblett

bicker said:


> As of the last numbers I saw, S1 customers make a very insignificant contribution to the bottom-line.


I don't expect TiVo to center it's business plan around me, but I do expect them to continue to provide the service that I paid for. Since I paid for lifetime, they have my money and (as it looks now, anyway) no plans to fix my problem; my only recourse is to complain.


----------



## hornblowercat

jimnoblett said:


> I don't expect TiVo to center it's business plan around me, but I do expect them to continue to provide the service that I paid for. Since I paid for lifetime, they have my money and (as it looks now, anyway) no plans to fix my problem; my only recourse is to complain.


And you have every right to do that, and this would be the place.

But the time change has occurred. What's done is done. It's been an interesting thread with all the research into what TiVo says it doesn't have to do and how they CTA.

But it is what it is. Time to move on. I'm sure we can talk about this again in October.

And who knows mabe in Octodber (doubtfull) TiVo will find a solution.


----------



## walterwatts

Dear Tivo,

I have three Tivo's. A series 1 and two series 2's, all subscribed units.

And you have the nerve to do this (not fix the DST problem on Series 1's) to the loyalist of all users, the series 1 users:
We love to pay $13/month for the guide that is an hour off. We are so stupid here that we don't even notice a difference. As long as TiVo inc saves money and is able to pay bonuses to execs we are happy. TiVo can do no wrong. It is all S1 owners fault. They knew for years that S1 was abandoned and were too cheap to upgrade to S2. Especially these early adaptors who bought lifetime subs. They cause TiVo to lose money for years and now they have guts to ask for a software fix that everybody else is getting. Shame on you! Long live TiVo board of directors.

And don't you dare tell me it was impossible to do from a software/programming standpoint.
You know that is bullsh*t.

Disappointed in Oklahoma

PS--the cable company's DVR is looking mighty good about now.
And it's only $5/month/unit versus my $12.95/$6.95/$6.95 subscriptions from Tivo (which Tivo is trying like hell to figure out how to raise on me.)


----------



## hornblowercat

walterwatts said:


> Dear Tivo,
> 
> PS--the cable company's DVR is looking mighty good about now.
> And it's only $5/month/unit versus my $12.95/$6.95/$6.95 subscriptions from Tivo (which Tivo is trying like hell to figure out how to raise on me.)


Sympathize with you again, but I guarantee you that the cable company DVR will not make you happy and you will have more problems with the time change then TiVo is giving you.

Just think about it. Read through some of my post about my experience with Cable DVR's and time change.


----------



## IHDB

_Dear walterwatts,

We received your recent correspondance with great interest. As our engineers were unable to come up with a viable solution to the DST problem, we take great interest in any proposed suggestions that you have in solving the problem. Since you are so much smarter than our engineers and know that there is any easy way fix this problem, we would like fire our entire engineering staff and hire you in their place.

Very Respectfully , 
Your Tivo_

C'mon, man how is it so hard for you to realize that sometimes, things just can't be done for a reasonable amount of money! It isn't like they took our S1's away from us or anything... And honestly, your beleif that the fix is easily done just demonstrates further that you don't know what the heck you're talking about.


----------



## LoadStar

hornblowercat said:


> And let me ask you this. What do you think happens with Cable DVR's with the time change? Having owned one for two years during the normal time changes I can tell you that everytime their was a time change I had to manually delete all shows I had set to "record all" and set them up for recording again. And this wasn't that easy of a taks as everytime I deleted a show it brought me back to live tv so I would have to go all through the menus again.


I checked my cable company DVR (Time Warner Cable, Explorer 8300, running Passport Echo 2.6.002/PowerTV 6.14.74.1sp), and you know what? My scheduled recordings all look fine, and I didn't have to do a thing. That includes both series recordings and individual episode recordings. Above all - my channel guide displays fine, including displaying the right time.

In otherwords, more than I'm getting out of TiVo right now.


----------



## timckelley

It just seems like adjusting for the new DST should be a really simple thing to accomplish. It doesn't seem like we're asking for much.


----------



## 8bitbarbarian

Sunday morning let's see what is up in the ol' entertainment cabinet:

Sony VCR - correct time
Sony Series 1 TIVO - incorrect time and recording something that isn't my normal recurring manual news gathering spread for Sunday morning

I'm still going to stick to my "I shouldn't be so concerned with technology and tv" broader view.

Just feeling a little bit of the burn.


----------



## Rowsdower

bicker said:


> No, [my theory's correctness] actually wouldn't [mean that TiVo is lying].


Would you care to elaborate? Again, TiVo claims that its "engineers continued to investigate & test all possibilities up to the last moment." If the company actually decided that such an endeavor was cost-prohibitive, how could this be anything other than a lie?

To clarify for readers who haven't seen my earlier posts, I don't believe that TiVo is lying.



> _You could have fooled me._


When did I assert that TiVo, Inc. would definitely succeed? On the contrary, I've expressed my concern that it might not.



> _You really don't "know" whether there is an alternative that would save TiVo more in the long-run._


Right. That's why I referred to this as "my opinion," not as a fact. I'm speculating (just as you are).



> _Of course: Ethical = whatever Rowsdower says is ethical.... _


Ummmm...no, I didn't say that. No one's ethical standards are sacrosanct. I'm merely noting the fact that "ethical" and "lawful" are not synonymous.

You seem to be implying that any lawful act on TiVo's part would be ethical. While one could conceivably draw overlapping boundaries, the two concepts are _not_ interchangeable from a linguistic standpoint.



> _Let me know when you're willing to grant others (i.e., TiVo) the right to live in accordance with their own values instead of presuming to force yours upon them_


I don't believe that TiVo's values (as I've always perceived them) would allow them to promise customers a fix and not provide one. If they do, I no longer like TiVo's values and wish to criticize the company.



> _Product are launched, they're supported for a while, and then support for them ends._


Right, but TiVo has made no such announcement regarding the standalone Series1 TiVo boxes. In fact, support was promised just last month.



> _As of the last numbers I saw, S1 customers make a very insignificant contribution to the bottom-line._


The perception that this is TiVo's attitude stands to damage the company's reputation with consumers. Lifetime subscribers already infused substantial sums of money at a time when TiVo needed it most. The fact that TiVo is within its legal rights to kick such individuals to the curb doesn't mean that this would be morally right or wise from a business standpoint. (PR is a legitimate expense.)



> _However, the S1 is obsolete. If it had a display screen, it would be illegal for it to be manufactured and sold in the country, today. That's beyond obsolete._


By the above criterion, the Series3 and dual-tuner Series2 models are the only standalone TiVo units that _aren't_ "beyond obsolete."

Incidentally, the "display screen" distinction doesn't exist. As of March 1, any device manufactured for sale in the U.S. containing an NTSC tuner must also contain an ATSC tuner. (Previously, only television sets with screen sizes over 25" were included). That's why TiVo's dual-tuner Series2 standalone boxes lack OTA reception.



> _Yet, for many older models, if you needed a part, you'd wouldn't reasonable be able to expect to get it from the manufacturer, after a certain period of time._


Would it be reasonable to expect the part if the manufacturer promised it?



> _Trying getting Chrysler to provide you a factory-new replacement for the steering column of a 1956 Rambler._


How many 1956 Rambler owners are paying DaimlerChrysler on a monthly basis? How many were sold "lifetime" service by AMC? How many were promised a factory-new steering column last month?



> _Indeed, and I believe TiVo's mistake was to make a statement that could have been misinterpreted as an iron-clad commitment that a full and complete remedy would unquestionably be provided. That is the extent the error that was made AFAIC._


How has the statement in question been misinterpreted? The extent of the remedy wasn't specified, but there really isn't much wiggle room. (The problem is either corrected or not corrected.) Absolutely no changes were made for standalone Series1 owners, so I don't see how you could argue that this commitment was upheld.



> _They're not "out of time" to fix it for the Fall or next Spring._


Indeed, and I sincerely hope that they come through. Time will tell.



> _Yet, I bet that TiVoJerry would confirm that S1 owners shouldn't be expecting a fix, even then._


But TiVoJerry _hasn't_ issued such a statement. If this is so (and I hope that it isn't), don't you think that we're entitled to at least that much?


----------



## Rowsdower

bicker said:


> Amen. Be careful, though. You've now committed the sin of expressing a reasonable perspective on this issue.


You _do_ realize that you're addressing someone who tells people with whom he disagrees to "shut up," don't you?


----------



## Rowsdower

IHDB said:


> No they didn't. They were (financially and/or technically) unable to provide a fix for a problem that was created through no fault of their own.


As strongly as I opposed the Energy Policy Act of 2005, the engineers are to blame for their failure to anticipate the possibility that DST would be modified (and to author the code in a manner that enabled a trivial patch).


----------



## sbourgeo

Well, my Philips S1 standalone is off by an hour now, where ironically my Philips S1 combo unit is showing the correct time.

The disingenuous statement "Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1, but unfortunately none exist" just doesn't sit well with me. I would appreciate being told the truth, which we all know is "We are no longer providing support for the S1 platform". Apologizing for the "inconvenience" just doesn't cut it...

TiVo was contractually obligated to provide a DST fix for DirecTV S1 boxes, but doesn't feel that same obligation to its longtime standalone customers. I'm disappointed, but not surprised...


----------



## TIVO_GUY_HERE

Well I don't have any manual recordings, so everything for me recorded just fine, yes clock is off, not a big deal, cuz with Tivo ya dont record by the clock ( unless manual). And living in Central time zone, I am used to going to TV listing sites such as Futon or TVGUIDE and subtracting 1 hour anyway, guess I will subtract 2 now. 

Is it a huge slap in the face for Tivo not being able to correct this issue? You bet it is. And I hope it stings.


----------



## Adam1115

Rowsdower said:


> Precisely. People who post comments along the lines of "Microsoft messed up too!" are missing the point.


Not JUST Microsoft, that's just one example. And I don't view it as they messed up, when the government is reshuffling all the time zones.... Anyone with any common sense when it comes to technology knows this is going to be a major inconvenience. A TON of companies are affected, ones that didn't plan on having to rewrite code for millions of pieces of equipment all over the country. Phone Systems are a HUGE problem. Many are older and while these have paid support contracts, the software hasn't been updated in years. Or, they are so far back on revs it would be a huge issue to bring them current. Big deal, right? Just a phone or voicemail message? Try attorney's and 911 centers? A lot of these places haven't even thought of all the equipment they use that has time information. I have a few attorney's that I support, they rely heavily on time stamps on fax and scans on their digital copier. Sharp, for example, doesn't have a 'patch' yet, and when they do it will involve someone coming out and reflashing the firmware of the copier. Their solution? Manually adjust the time now and again in 3 weeks. Arguably, that could be a better solution for the SA1 (the ability to manually control your time zone/time).

Anyway, the amount of time put into this thread arguing a moot point could have manually adjusted about 4,000,000 manual recordings... Maybe people here should just agree to disagree??


----------



## psyton

hornblowercat said:


> They did try to fix it. They couldn't, unless you are calling them liars.


Yep - I am. Is the Tivo software a cut above the rest, creative and innovative? I think it is. So, how can one marvel in this feat of engineering, only to fail so miserably in such a simple, mundane task of updating for a change in DST?

You don't think they are misrepresenting the truth. Fine, then you must think they suck, because I guarantee you even I could have implemented a solution.

Realistically, not sure which is worse - hate being lied to, but if the converse is true, then what does that say for the future posibilities of the software?

Personally, I think they should have just come out and said they made a decision not to update the Series1, based on cost, risk, whatever, but then again, maybe the masses do not know any better (perhaps you and others here included) and thus Tivo is none-the-worse for the position - except if I were a Tivo engineer, not to sure how happy I'd be right now, being the scape goat, because it clearly calls into question one's capabilities from their peers, who know better - I take more pride in my skills than that.

-- psyton


----------



## hornblowercat

LoadStar said:


> I checked my cable company DVR (Time Warner Cable, Explorer 8300, running Passport Echo 2.6.002/PowerTV 6.14.74.1sp), and you know what? My scheduled recordings all look fine, and I didn't have to do a thing. That includes both series recordings and individual episode recordings. Above all - my channel guide displays fine, including displaying the right time.
> 
> In otherwords, more than I'm getting out of TiVo right now.


I related my experience. And to be honest I've heard others that have said the same thing who have owned the SA 8300. I really should have said ymmv.


----------



## Adam1115

Adam1115 said:


> Not JUST Microsoft, that's just one example. And I don't view it as they messed up, when the government is reshuffling all the time zones.... Anyone with any common sense when it comes to technology knows this is going to be a major inconvenience. A TON of companies are affected, ones that didn't plan on having to rewrite code for millions of pieces of equipment all over the country. Phone Systems are a HUGE problem. Many are older and while these have paid support contracts, the software hasn't been updated in years. Or, they are so far back on revs it would be a huge issue to bring them current. Big deal, right? Just a phone or voicemail message? Try attorney's and 911 centers? A lot of these places haven't even thought of all the equipment they use that has time information. I have a few attorney's that I support, they rely heavily on time stamps on fax and scans on their digital copier. Sharp, for example, doesn't have a 'patch' yet, and when they do it will involve someone coming out and reflashing the firmware of the copier. Their solution? Manually adjust the time now and again in 3 weeks. Arguably, that could be a better solution for the SA1 (the ability to manually control your time zone/time).
> 
> Anyway, the amount of time put into this thread arguing a moot point could have manually adjusted about 4,000,000 manual recordings... Maybe people here should just agree to disagree??


Another GLARING example?? THIS FORUM! I just noticed the time stamps on our messages are off by an hour.. ROFL...


----------



## mick66

Adam1115 said:


> Another GLARING example?? THIS FORUM! I just noticed the time stamps on our messages are off by an hour.. ROFL...


 Change your settings. 
The time stamps are working accurately.


----------



## timckelley

I checked my settings, and they are correct (Central time, automatically detect DST). The forum is indeed off an hour.

My computer system time, btw, is also off. Windows did not compensate for the new DST.


----------



## hornblowercat

sbourgeo said:


> TiVo was contractually obligated to provide a DST fix for DirecTV S1 boxes, but doesn't feel that same obligation to its longtime standalone customers. I'm disappointed, but not surprised...


Sorry. They wern't contractually obligated. I've looked for the link but I can't find it but basically it says they don't have to offer support for all customers just because they support some customers. And that's their out.

I'm sure someone will find the link.


----------



## Rottluver

imadork said:


> I'm disappointed by this. I expected better from TiVo. Maybe I'm weird, but I expect my consumer electronics to last more than a few years without having incompatablity problems. It certainly reinforces my decision to not spend $1000 to upgrade to a Series III when I can't count on TiVo to support their hardware fully for more than a few years, and I'll think twice before buying new TiVo hardware now.
> 
> But I do understand how difficult the fix might be. My crusty S1 TiVo still has a shell open on it. From what I can tell, the TiVo stores its' internal time as GMT/UTC, but doesn't use the Linux concept of timezones at all. Whatever applications deal with the system time must provide its own offset. This is probably why the fix is so hard -- if it really is structured this way, then the fix is more than just tweaking a system offset, it might involve recompiling every binary that deals with system time. IF there were a way I could manually adjust the time in the shell, I'd be OK with that, but I'm not sure if that is possible.
> 
> Bummer. I guess I'll just deal with the inconvenience while I spend the time to research what the new PVR options are.


So if they can't fix non DTV S1's, how come they could (and did) fix the DTV ones? How much different is my SAT T60 from a non-DTV unit? Aside (OBVIOUSLY) from not having the DTV info in/on it? Just curious since mine was corrected last week. 


hornblowercat said:


> While I sympathize with Series 1 owners, I kind of look at it like asking for support on a computer that's 7 years old. How long is the company required to support this?
> 
> Still as I said I see your point. If I had a series 1 I would not be happy at all.


I don't own an HD tv, all 3 of my S1's work great and function like new........why would I spend extra money that I don't have to, just to have the newest model of Tivo that is out when I have no NEED for it?

Do you replace your car every time there is a change to the model? :shrug:


MickeS said:


> As for monthly Series 1 subscribers... well I don't have much sympathy there, honestly.  Just get a new TiVo.


Not everyone has spare change enough to just "get a new Tivo (or several depending on how many are in the house)


----------



## gastrof

n548gxg said:


> I will say this again. Do not buy Tivo Products. They abandoned Series I owners today.
> 
> Tomorrow, they will abandoned Series II owners and so forth.
> 
> My God, even Replay TV who havent been in business for years issued a fix.
> 
> Just move on and remember who treated you right.


And who didn't.


----------



## Rottluver

timckelley said:


> I checked my settings, and they are correct (Central time, automatically detect DST). The forum is indeed off an hour.
> 
> My computer system time, btw, is also off. Windows did not compensate for the new DST.


Both my WinXP computers have the correct time.......there was a patch in the Update section for Microsoft months ago IIRC


----------



## Rowsdower

Adam1115 said:


> Not JUST Microsoft, that's just one example.


I realize that. My point is that some of us expect more from TiVo because we perceive it as an above-average company. Said perception may be crucial to TiVo's future success. If people come to view TiVo as just another consumer electronics firm, I don't see how it will stand a chance of surviving against the established corporations with which it already struggles to compete.



> _And I don't view it as they messed up, when the government is reshuffling all the time zones.... Anyone with any common sense when it comes to technology knows this is going to be a major inconvenience._


I blame the United States Congress and President Bush too, but the problem that they created should have been easily fixable in devices capable of receiving software/firmware updates. It doesn't surprise me when Microsoft and its peers fail to provide adequate support, but TiVo is (supposed to be) better than that.

And again, TiVo promised a fix. I wouldn't be _as_ critical if the discontinuation of Series1 support had been announced instead.



> _Arguably, that could be a better solution for the SA1 (the ability to manually control your time zone/time)._


Indeed, that would be of tremendous benefit (and I don't know why this was omitted in the first place), but such a software addition (which would necessitate actual UI changes) undoubtedly would be significantly more difficult to code than the promised fix would be.



> _Another GLARING example?? THIS FORUM! I just noticed the time stamps on our messages are off by an hour.. ROFL..._


The timestamps are correct on my end.


----------



## sbourgeo

hornblowercat said:


> Sorry. They wern't contractually obligated. I've looked for the link but I can't find it but basically it says they don't have to offer support for all customers just because they support some customers. And that's their out.
> 
> I'm sure someone will find the link.


So you're claiming that there is a publicly available link that outlines the details of the Agreement between DirecTV and TiVo? Why would they ever make that public?

I still stand by my point. I believe that TiVo supplied DirecTV with a fix in compliance with the terms of their contract. Standalone customers have no such Agreement and therefore get bupkus...


----------



## IHDB

sbourgeo said:


> So you're claiming that there is a publicly available link that outlines the details of the Agreement between DirecTV and TiVo? Why would they ever make that public?
> 
> I still stand by my point. I believe that TiVo supplied DirecTV with a fix in compliance with the terms of their contract. Standalone customers have no such Agreement and therefore get bupkus...


So you're claiming that while hornblowercat can't possibly know the details of the DirecTV/Tivo agreement becuase he can't find a link, you DO know the details because we're, like, supposed to trust you or something?

I'll get right on that...


----------



## hornblowercat

IHDB said:


> So you're claiming that while hornblowercat can't possibly know the details of the DirecTV/Tivo agreement becuase he can't find a link, you DO know the details because we're, like, supposed to trust you or something?
> 
> I'll get right on that...


No I don't know about TiVo and D*. But this is TOS for TiVo. I can't understand why it would be different for D*.

6. Changes to Your TiVo Service. TiVo may at its discretion and from time to time change, add, or remove features and functionality of the TiVo service or the TiVo DVR without notice. If you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo service, you may immediately cancel your use of the TiVo service as provided in Section 14 ("Termination of Service"). TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion. TiVo may at its discretion discontinue the provision of software updates to certain TiVo DVRs. *This means that while other TiVo DVRs may receive continued software updates and functionality; TiVo is not required to provide such updates to your TiVo DVR. Additionally, the level of service TiVo provides may not be the same on each TiVo DVR; a given TiVo DVR may support different features and functionality, and TiVo is under no obligation to provide all features and functionality to your TiVo DVR.*

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.2.asp

Again I'm sympathetic but there it is in black and white.


----------



## sbourgeo

IHDB said:


> So you're claiming that while hornblowercat can't possibly know the details of the DirecTV/Tivo agreement becuase he can't find a link, you DO know the details because we're, like, supposed to trust you or something?
> 
> I'll get right on that...


I obviously don't know the details, but why do you think TiVo created a patch for the S1 combo units and not the S1 standalones?

Why would TiVo go the extra mile for a company that dumped them as their preferred DVR platform unless they were contractually obligated to do so?


----------



## Rowsdower

hornblowercat said:


> No I don't know about TiVo and D*. But this is TOS for TiVo.


Those are the terms to which end-users subscribing to TiVo's service agree. They have absolutely no bearing on the contractual agreement between TiVo and DirecTV, nor does operating a DirecTV DVR create a contract between TiVo and the end-user (as of 2002).



> _I can't understand why it would be different for D*._


TiVo's current contract with DirecTV calls for TiVo to provide "ongoing maintenance and support" through February 2010. TiVo has no such legal obligation to end-users.


----------



## Opusnbill7

Rowsdower said:


> Those are the terms to which end-users subscribing to TiVo's service agree. They have absolutely no bearing on the contractual agreement between TiVo and DirecTV, nor does operating a DirecTV DVR create a contract between TiVo and the end-user (as of 2002).
> 
> TiVo's current contract with DirecTV calls for TiVo to provide "ongoing maintenance and support" through February 2010. TiVo has no such legal obligation to end-users.


That is most likely true. However, what is "legal" isn't always necessarily what is "right".


----------



## Rowsdower

Opusnbill7 said:


> That is most likely true. However, what is "legal" isn't always necessarily what is "right".


You're preaching to the choir.


----------



## sbourgeo

hornblowercat said:


> No I don't know about TiVo and D*. But this is TOS for TiVo. I can't understand why it would be different for D*.
> 
> 6. Changes to Your TiVo Service. TiVo may at its discretion and from time to time change, add, or remove features and functionality of the TiVo service or the TiVo DVR without notice. If you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo service, you may immediately cancel your use of the TiVo service as provided in Section 14 ("Termination of Service"). TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion. TiVo may at its discretion discontinue the provision of software updates to certain TiVo DVRs. *This means that while other TiVo DVRs may receive continued software updates and functionality; TiVo is not required to provide such updates to your TiVo DVR. Additionally, the level of service TiVo provides may not be the same on each TiVo DVR; a given TiVo DVR may support different features and functionality, and TiVo is under no obligation to provide all features and functionality to your TiVo DVR.*
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/5.11.2.asp
> 
> Again I'm sympathetic but there it is in black and white.


For standalone boxes, the relationship between TiVo is directly with standalone customers. Standalone customers are bound by the TOS that you quote, which agrees with my point that TiVo is not obligated to provide software updates to standalone boxes. I fail to see how this consumer-level TOS applies to the corp-to-corp relationship TiVo has with DirecTV though...

For combo boxes, TiVo's relationship is directly with DirecTV. That obviously includes TiVo getting paid for their DirecTV DVR subs as well as providing some level of software development and support at DirecTV's discretion. My guess is that release 3.5b was requested by DirecTV to address at least the data stream and DST problems. Why else would TiVo do the work if they weren't contractually obligated (and probably compensated by DirecTV) to do so?


----------



## Opusnbill7

Ya know, I think we've about beaten this horse to death. The S1 Tivos are now slightly inferior in some ways than their S2 and S3 relatives and even competitors' models due to this DST problem (only because the other models and other companies' products handled the change properly). Yes I know it's a "cosmetic" problem, but it still affects the guide display, the time display, and the manual recording functionality. That, to me, is more than just a "cosmetic" problem. Now, whether Tivo didn't fix it because of technical or financial reasons doesn't really matter at this point. What matters is the following: 1. Are they going to do anything to remedy the problem in the future (whether it is a patch or a discounted upgrade to an S2 or S3 and officially "end support" of the S1)? and 2. What are our options based on their choice for #1?

Now, without TivoJerry or TivoStephen commenting, everything everyone has said is purely speculation based on our own interpretations of the situation and contract language (unless some of you quoting it are lawyers...which I doubt). Hopefully they will respond to this thread sometime in the near future (I had hoped they would on Friday/this weekend, but I guess not...) and let us know the facts of the situation beyond the "official stance of not technically feasible". Tivo has been pretty straightforward with us in the past, so I hope that they will be honest with us in this situation. 

But hey, I could be completely wrong about everything I just said...


----------



## sbourgeo

Opusnbill7, stop making so much sense.


----------



## Mars

I just don't see what could be so hard about correcting this. When the original software was written, somebody sitting in front of a keyboard typed in the dates and time to represent daylight savings time. Why can't that same somebody get out the old code, type in the new dates, call it ver 3.1 and upload it to our series one TiVos. These TiVos aren't that old, how long before they call the series 3 OLD, and we don't support it, just take your money for using it each month. Come on TiVo, this isn't some new feature upgrade we're asking for, just trying to hang on to what we had.


----------



## dcheesi

Mars said:


> I just don't see what could be so hard about correcting this. When the original software was written, somebody sitting in front of a keyboard typed in the dates and time to represent daylight savings time. Why can't that same somebody get out the old code, type in the new dates, call it ver 3.1 and upload it to our series one TiVos. These TiVos aren't that old, how long before they call the series 3 OLD, and we don't support it, just take your money for using it each month. Come on TiVo, this isn't some new feature upgrade we're asking for, just trying to hang on to what we had.


That's why I previously hypothesized a loss of the original source code for S1 units. The only other technical explanation would be if they were foolish enough to encode the timezone definitions in hardware somewhere, eg. in the RealTime Clock chip, or in an FPGA that they can't remotely upgrade the firmware of.


----------



## TechDreamer

Count me in as one of the "Tivo screwed us crowd". Tivo seems to support the Series 1 for advertising, but is utterly baffled by clock technology. My family is currently using the friggin cable guide because they state the "Tivo is broken".


----------



## n548gxg

TechDreamer said:


> Count me in as one of the "Tivo screwed us crowd". Tivo seems to support the Series 1 for advertising, but is utterly baffled by clock technology. My family is currently using the friggin cable guide because they state the "Tivo is broken".


+1


----------



## VictorWI

TechDreamer said:


> Count me in as one of the "Tivo screwed us crowd". Tivo seems to support the Series 1 for advertising, but is utterly baffled by clock technology. My family is currently using the friggin cable guide because they state the "Tivo is broken".


My S1 SA is working fine. Recording my shows, letting me time shift, pause live tv, fast forward through commercial. There is some cosmetic issue with the clock but I can add one.


----------



## IHDB

sbourgeo said:


> I obviously don't know the details, but why do you think TiVo created a patch for the S1 combo units and not the S1 standalones?
> 
> Why would TiVo go the extra mile for a company that dumped them as their preferred DVR platform unless they were contractually obligated to do so?


I'm inclined to believe Jerry that there wasn't a was to make the switch. Despite the fact that they are both S1's, since the DirecTivo boxes are different, it's not at all unrealistic to expect the software to be different. I would even speculate that the DirecTivo boxes get their time from the sattelite feed (like GPS does), so that the time handling parts would be one of the parts where the code was a little bit different, since you can't get time information from cable TV or an antenna...

I know that it's silly in this day and age to have trust in some people, but Stephen and Jerry are pretty honest folks, and I'm inclined to beleive that the problem isn't as easy as some of the self-proclaimed "experts" in this thread think that it is.


----------



## sbourgeo

IHDB said:


> I'm inclined to believe Jerry that there wasn't a was to make the switch. Despite the fact that they are both S1's, since the DirecTivo boxes are different, it's not at all unrealistic to expect the software to be different. I would even speculate that the DirecTivo boxes get their time from the sattelite feed (like GPS does), so that the time handling parts would be one of the parts where the code was a little bit different, since you can't get time information from cable TV or an antenna...
> 
> I know that it's silly in this day and age to have trust in some people, but Stephen and Jerry are pretty honest folks, and I'm inclined to beleive that the problem isn't as easy as some of the self-proclaimed "experts" in this thread think that it is.


I suppose anything is possible, but I'm not convinced it was impossible from a technical point of view to fix the DST issue on the S1 standalones.

I found the new DST entries in the MFS database after my DSR6000 was upgraded from from 3.5 to 3.5b and 3.5b introduced offsets for DST start and end dates as well as start and end times. Prior to that, the 3.5 software on my DSR6000 had the same location configuration entries in MFS as my HDR312. As long as the TiVo binaries and scripts were updated to grab the DST info from MFS, one would think that it wouldn't be a big deal to implement this on the S1 standalones too.

In the end, it doesn't matter much anyway...


----------



## jberman

*PLEASE NOTE:* Since the time I posted these scripts, TiVo has incorporated them into an official update that became available to S1 owners (regardless of current TiVo subscription status) on 3/14/2007. Please visit http://research.tivo.com/prioritydst to sign up for the official patch. Thanks! -jberman

--

I'm certainly no expert at this, but I think I might have figured out a workaround for my Series 1 SA (Philips) Tivo....

I spent most of the afternoon piecing together information on this problem, and eventually discovered that there's an MFS setting called TimeZoneOld that has the following possible values (which I grabbed from /tvlib/tcl/tv/DbEnum.tcl):



Code:


namespace eval TimeZone {
variable Eastern 1   [a.k.a. GMT-5]
variable Central 2   [a.k.a. GMT-6]
variable Mountain 3  [a.k.a. GMT-7]
variable Pacific 4   [a.k.a. GMT-8]
variable Alaska 5    [a.k.a. GMT-9]
variable Hawaii 6    [a.k.a. GMT-10]
variable GMT 7
variable GMTPlus1 8
variable GMTPlus2 9
variable GMTPlus3 10
variable GMTPlus4 11
variable GMTPlus5 12
variable GMTPlus6 13
variable GMTPlus7 14
variable GMTPlus8 15
variable GMTPlus9 16
variable GMTPlus10 17
variable GMTPlus11 18
variable GMTPlus12 19
variable GMTMinus1 20
variable GMTMinus2 21
variable GMTMinus3 22
variable GMTMinus4 23
variable GMTMinus11 24
variable GMTMinus12 25
}

I live on the U.S. east coast. Assuming that TivoApp manipulates this setting to control DST changes, I ran a little tcl script (included below) to set TimeZoneOld to 23 (a.k.a. GMT-4), then restarted my Tivo. Now the clock looks correct in the program guide, all my season passes still work, and everything (so far) looks good. My last step was to set up a crontab entry to make sure this script gets run on the second Sunday in March (and also the first Sunday in April and last Sunday in October for good measure, just in case TivoApp does something funky with the timezone then), and another one to set it back to GMT-5 on the first Sunday in November.

If you want to give it a try, good luck.... I'm posting the scripts and crontab entries here. _This requires access to the bash prompt, or for you to pull your drives._ In other words, it's intended for hacked Series 1 SA Tivos only. In addition, I can't support or guarantee anything... if you break your Tivo, you're SOL, yadda yadda yadda. But if do try it, please post your results here. I'd love to know if this helps anyone else.  (FYI cron doesn't come with the S1 Tivo, but you can download a precompiled version here.)

The scripts below are for the Eastern time zone. If you live elsewhere, make sure you alter the tcl scripts to set the TimeZoneOld variable for your own timezone as follows:

Central time:
In DST_on.tcl, set TimeZoneOld to 1
In DST_off.tcl, set TimeZoneOld to 2

Mountain time:
In DST_on.tcl, set TimeZoneOld to 2
In DST_off.tcl, set TimeZoneOld to 3

Pacific time:
In DST_on.tcl, set TimeZoneOld to 3
In DST_off.tcl, set TimeZoneOld to 4

General case:
In DST_on.tcl, set TimeZoneOld to the code representing your offset from GMT during Daylight Savings Time
In DST_off.tcl, set TimeZoneOld to the code representing your offset from GMT during Standard Time.

DST_on.tcl: (run this on the 2nd Sunday in March, 1st Sunday in April, and last Sunday in October)


Code:


#!/tvbin/tivosh
source /tvlib/tcl/tv/Inc.itcl
source /tvlib/tcl/tv/mfslib.tcl
set db [dbopen]
try { transaction {
set setup [db $db open /State/LocationConfig]
puts "Springing ahead one hour ..."
dbobj $setup set TimeZoneOld 23 
} } catch errCode {
    puts "Sorry, an error occurred: $errCode"
    puts "NOTE: This script is only known to work on TiVo Series 1 Standalone"
    puts "models with s/w version 3.0-01-1-000"
    dbclose $db
    unset db
    exit 1
}
dbclose $db
unset db
event send $TmkEvent::EVT_DATA_CHANGED $TmkDataChanged::SCHEDULE 0
puts "Done"

DST_off.tcl (run this on the 1st Sunday in November):


Code:


#!/tvbin/tivosh
source /tvlib/tcl/tv/Inc.itcl
source /tvlib/tcl/tv/mfslib.tcl
set db [dbopen]
try { transaction {
set setup [db $db open /State/LocationConfig]
puts "Falling back one hour ..."
dbobj $setup set TimeZoneOld 1
} } catch errCode {
    puts "Sorry, an error occurred: $errCode"
    puts "NOTE: This script is only known to work on TiVo Series 1 Standalone"
    puts "models with s/w version 3.0-01-1-000"
    dbclose $db
    unset db
    exit 1
}
dbclose $db
unset db
event send $TmkEvent::EVT_DATA_CHANGED $TmkDataChanged::SCHEDULE 0
puts "Done"

crontab entries:


Code:


1 7 8-14 3 0 /var/hack/bin/DST_on.tcl; echo "`date` - Reboot for DST fix (spring ahead)" >> /var/log/cronlog_dst; sync; /sbin/restart
1 6 1-7 4 0 /var/hack/bin/DST_on.tcl; echo "`date` - Reboot for DST fix (undo TiVo spring ahead)" >> /var/log/cronlog_dst; sync; /sbin/restart
1 6 25-31 10 0 /var/hack/bin/DST_on.tcl; echo "`date` - Reboot for DST fix (undo TiVo fall back)" >> /var/log/cronlog_dst; sync; /sbin/restart
1 7 1-7 11 0 /var/hack/bin/DST_off.tcl; echo "`date` - Reboot for DST fix (fall back)" >> /var/log/cronlog_dst; sync; /sbin/restart

*WARNING:* It turns out that this crontab is broken. It runs every day of the week of the time change, AND every Sunday morning at 2:01 am during that month. For an updated version, please see Post #446 below. The scripts in this post will work fine when used without cron, however.


----------



## LoadStar

You know, this is the part that irritates me more than anything else. 

No matter what the reason that TiVo decided not to update the series 1 units - whether it be financial, technical, or even if they just didn't feel like it - had they said something more than 3-4 days ahead of time, someone like jberman would've been able to come up with something as a work-around with enough time before the DST changeover.


----------



## BTUx9

did you check your todo list?
I may be wrong, but I believe tivo schedules repeating manual recordings ahead of time, so if you change your timezone when DST actually changes, any manual recordings that are already scheduled will be off by one hour.


----------



## jberman

jberman said:


> I'm certainly no expert at this, but I think I might have figured out a workaround for my Series 1 SA (Philips) Tivo....


Update: Just confirmed that newly-scheduled manual recordings are working perfectly... and even the ones that I scheduled before creating this workaround are still scheduled to record at the correct time. Woo hoo!


----------



## timckelley

If jberman, who I assume doesn't work for TiVo and is not one of the authors of the TiVo software, could figure this out, why couldn't TiVo's programmers and authors figure it out?


----------



## BTUx9

jberman said:


> Update: Just confirmed that newly-scheduled manual recordings are working perfectly... and even the ones that I scheduled before creating this workaround are still scheduled to record at the correct time. Woo hoo!


just to verify... let's say you set a manual recording before changing TZ, and in todo, it was scheduled for this monday from 2-3 (according to the tivo, which would have been an hour off and the actual recording would be 3-4)
Now, you've changed the TZ, and the recording is still scheduled for 2-3 on Monday, right?

If so, then congratulations... I think you've found a very workable solution to the problem.


----------



## jberman

timckelley said:


> If jberman, who I assume doesn't work for TiVo and is not one of the authors of the TiVo software, could figure this out, why couldn't TiVo's programmers and authors figure it out?


Uh, thanks! No, I don't work for Tivo, and I really have only a limited experience in hacking it. But I can't really take too much credit for this (in fact I can't even say with 100% certainty that it works yet - won't really know until after April 1, though indications are good). Most of the information I needed came from this thread, especially post #9 (thanks sbourgeo!). I just put the pieces together, is all.


----------



## jberman

BTUx9 said:


> just to verify... let's say you set a manual recording before changing TZ, and in todo, it was scheduled for this monday from 2-3 (according to the tivo, which would have been an hour off and the actual recording would be 3-4)
> Now, you've changed the TZ, and the recording is still scheduled for 2-3 on Monday, right?


BTUx9 -

That's right. For years now I've had a manual recording set to record every Friday night from 11:30 pm - 12:00 am. Now that I've changed the time zone, the ToDo list still shows the manual recording scheduled from 11:30 pm - 12:00 am. Since my Tivo's GMT setting is also correct, there's every reason to expect that it will record on-time, as scheduled.


----------



## BTUx9

timckelley said:


> If jberman, who I assume doesn't work for TiVo and is not one of the authors of the TiVo software, could figure this out, why couldn't TiVo's programmers and authors figure it out?


Umm... while this will help many people, it isn't a method that could be released in production, because times on either side of the DST change will be off, and that would freak some people out.

people are reading tivo's declaration of "Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1, but unfortunately none exist.", and are inferring that to mean the engineers can't fix the software, but that's *patently* untrue.

The "alternate solutions" are probably given the constraints of "no downloads of new s/w for series 1 machines", and under those constraints, that statement is true.

They've just spun the wording to look like a technical problem.


----------



## timckelley

BTUx9 said:


> The "alternate solutions" are probably given the constraints of "no downloads of new s/w for series 1 machines", and under those constraints, that statement is true.


Not very many days ago, one of the TiVo employees posted here, and said that many TiVo employees have series 1 machines, and they want to fix the DST problem, and that they won't "leave us high and dry". (This was before the recent announcement that they're going to stiff us on the patch.) This announced intention that they had made at that time, seems to imply that they were willing to send download patches to us, that there wasn't some rule against letting us download a patch to the S1's.


----------



## BTUx9

Don't you think that could have been a corporate over-rule?

As a programmer, I just can't IMAGINE not being able to fix this given the full source code.


----------



## sbourgeo

Nice jberman! I have to admit that I gave up on TimeZoneOld since I am in the Eastern zone and was too dense to notice that it could be set to "GMT-X" values.  

That seems like workable solution since the bash prompt would continue to display GMT, which what the guide data works off of...


----------



## jimnoblett

BTUx9 said:


> people are reading tivo's declaration of "Our engineers have been working on alternate solutions for the Series1, but unfortunately none exist.", and are inferring that to mean the engineers can't fix the software, but that's *patently* untrue.
> 
> The "alternate solutions" are probably given the constraints of "no downloads of new s/w for series 1 machines", and under those constraints, that statement is true.
> 
> They've just spun the wording to look like a technical problem.


I suspect that the post TiVoJerry made here was given to him by the TiVo legal department, and was meant to deflect liability. Since jberman's patch seems to work, I would like to see TiVoJerry step up to the plate and explain WHY TiVo can't seem to fix this.


----------



## sbourgeo

BTUx9 said:


> Don't you think that could have been a corporate over-rule?
> 
> As a programmer, I just can't IMAGINE not being able to fix this given the full source code.


Must be. All of us corporate drones have to stick with the company line ya know... 

My disappointment is with the decision made by TiVo the company, and not with Pony, Jerry, and Stephen, who have helped out a lot of us here on many occasions.


----------



## jberman

sbourgeo said:


> That seems like workable solution since the bash prompt would continue to display GMT, which what the guide data works off of...


I can confirm that. It's 8:35 am here on the east coast, and the bash prompt returns GMT as follows:

bash-2.02# date
Mon Mar 12 12:35:30 localtime 2007

Perfect.


----------



## bicker

hornblowercat said:


> Sympathize with you again, but I guarantee you that the cable company DVR will not make you happy and you will have more problems with the time change then TiVo is giving you. Just think about it. Read through some of my post about my experience with Cable DVR's and time change.


To be fair, my cable company DVR is much much better than my TiVo S1. No problems whatsoever with the DST change on my cable company DVR.


----------



## jberman

Hmmm... it appears that my crontab entries will restart the Tivo every night during the affected weeks, not just on Sunday. I didn't know that crontab schedule values are cumulative. Figured this out the hard way when my Tivo rebooted at 3:01 last night! Won't harm the functionality... it's just annoying. Oh, well. Later today I'll try to amend the logic (or edit the tcl script) to make sure this runs only on the Sundays.


----------



## bicker

Rowsdower said:


> Would you care to elaborate?


I don't need to. The original message wasn't a lie because it was predictive. It was a mistake, not a lie. John McCain has declared he's going to be the next President of the United States. If he loses the election, does that mean his earlier declaration is a lie? Of course not. And with regard to the later statement, there is nothing that precludes any considerations from the decision that they're informing you of, except your own fiat.



Rowsdower said:


> I'm merely noting the fact that "ethical" and "lawful" are not synonymous.


You implied that their actions weren't ethical. The fact that their actions are lawful means unequivocally that someone can legitimately consider them ethical, so they are not objectively unethical. Which is what I said.



Rowsdower said:


> I don't believe that TiVo's values (as I've always perceived them) would allow them to promise customers a fix and not provide one.


So you're basing your arguments on your own, perhaps distorted, view of someone else's values, rather than allowing their actions to clearly demonstrate what their values really are. Okay, that's your prerogative. 



Rowsdower said:


> If they do, I no longer like TiVo's values and wish to criticize the company.


And please allow those of us who wish to, to rebut such criticism.



Rowsdower said:


> The perception that this is TiVo's attitude stands to damage the company's reputation with consumers.


As I mentioned in another thread, I don't see how this minor issue with this small number of obsolete-product customers compares to the problems TiVo has left unremedied for long periods of time for large numbers of current-model customers.



Rowsdower said:


> By the above criterion, the Series3 and dual-tuner Series2 models are the only standalone TiVo units that _aren't_ "beyond obsolete."


In addition to my S1, I have two of the earlier S2 units. I already know that they're living on borrowed time.



Rowsdower said:


> Incidentally, the "display screen" distinction doesn't exist. As of March 1, any device manufactured for sale in the U.S. containing an NTSC tuner must also contain an ATSC tuner.


Yup, I had a feeling that that was the case, but I was sure that that was the case for devices with display screens, so that's the analog I presented. I'm glad to know my analogy was more applicable than I presented it.



Rowsdower said:


> Would it be reasonable to expect the part if the manufacturer promised it?


In writing as part of a signed contract? Or are you asking whether we should condemn to hell anyone who makes an off-the-cuff promise, not knowing what that promise entails, in a discussion forum, and then has to recant?

And so on... you're not worth the bother any longer. Gotta head to work.


----------



## n548gxg

sbourgeo said:


> My disappointment is with the decision made by TiVo the company, and not with Pony, Jerry, and Stephen, who have helped out a lot of us here on many occasions.


+1


----------



## BTUx9

sbourgeo said:


> Must be. All of us corporate drones have to stick with the company line ya know...
> 
> My disappointment is with the decision made by TiVo the company, and not with Pony, Jerry, and Stephen, who have helped out a lot of us here on many occasions.


Oh, ABSOLUTELY. 
I'm sure, when posting here, they are "corporate spokesmen" and as such, they probably don't have much latitude at all when it comes to anything that might be embarrassing for the company.


----------



## sbourgeo

jberman said:


> Hmmm... it appears that my crontab entries will restart the Tivo every night during the affected weeks, not just on Sunday. I didn't know that crontab schedule values are cumulative. Figured this out the hard way when my Tivo rebooted at 3:01 last night! Won't harm the functionality... it's just annoying. Oh, well. Later today I'll try to amend the logic (or edit the tcl script) to make sure this runs only on the Sundays.


With cron, the closest we could probably get would be to have the script fired off at 1:59 AM every Sunday in March and November.

We would ideally come up with a single tcl script with enough smarts to check if it is the second Sunday in March or the first Sunday in November, pull the TimeZoneOld value out of MFS, reset it to an appropriate value (+1/-1 in most cases and 1/23 for the eastern time zone special case), and reboot.


----------



## jberman

*PLEASE NOTE:* Since the time I posted these scripts, TiVo has incorporated them into an official update that became available to S1 owners (regardless of current TiVo subscription status) on 3/14/2007. Please visit http://research.tivo.com/prioritydst to sign up for the official patch. Thanks! -jberman

--



sbourgeo said:


> With cron, the closest we could probably get would be to have the script fired off at 1:59 AM every Sunday in March and November.
> 
> We would ideally come up with a single tcl script with enough smarts to check if it is the second Sunday in March or the first Sunday in November, pull the TimeZoneOld value out of MFS, reset it to an appropriate value (+1/-1 in most cases and 1/23 for the eastern time zone special case), and reboot.


Agreed. Well for starters, this new version (if used with cron) will only run on the 3rd Sunday in March, first Sunday in April, last Sunday in October and first Sunday in November (not every Sunday in March, April, October and November, plus every day of the week during the second week of March, first week of April, last week of October and first week of November, as my last attempt would have done!).

*WARNING:* these updated scripts are designed to work with cron *only* (it will only run on Sundays and automatically resets your Tivo). If you want to run the script manually, use the version that I posted in Post #425 above.

DST_on_cron.tcl:


Code:


#!/tvbin/tivosh
source /tvlib/tcl/tv/Inc.itcl
source /tvlib/tcl/tv/mfslib.tcl
set dayofweek [exec date +%u]
if {$dayofweek != 7} {
  puts "Current day of the week isn't Sunday. Not adjusting timezone."
}
else {
  set db [dbopen]
  try { transaction {
    set setup [db $db open /State/LocationConfig]
    puts "Springing ahead one hour ..."
    dbobj $setup set TimeZoneOld 23 
  } } catch errCode {
    puts "Sorry, an error occurred: $errCode"
    puts "NOTE: This script is only known to work on TiVo Series 1 Standalone"
    puts "models with s/w version 3.0-01-1-000"
    dbclose $db
    unset db
    exit 1
  }
  dbclose $db
  unset db
  event send $TmkEvent::EVT_DATA_CHANGED $TmkDataChanged::SCHEDULE 0
  set DSTlog [open /var/log/cronlog_dst a]
  set dateGMT [exec date]
  puts $DSTlog "$dateGMT - Reboot for DST fix (DST is now ON)"
  close $DSTlog
  puts "Done, rebooting now ..."
  sync
  reboot
}

DST_off_cron.tcl:


Code:


#!/tvbin/tivosh
source /tvlib/tcl/tv/Inc.itcl
source /tvlib/tcl/tv/mfslib.tcl
set dayofweek [exec date +%u]
if {$dayofweek != 7} {
  puts "Current day of the week isn't Sunday. Not adjusting timezone."
}
else {
  set db [dbopen]
  try { transaction {
  set setup [db $db open /State/LocationConfig]
  puts "Falling back one hour ..."
  dbobj $setup set TimeZoneOld 1 
  } } catch errCode {
    puts "Sorry, an error occurred: $errCode"
    puts "NOTE: This script is only known to work on TiVo Series 1 Standalone"
    puts "models with s/w version 3.0-01-1-000"
    dbclose $db
    unset db
    exit 1
  }
  dbclose $db
  unset db
  event send $TmkEvent::EVT_DATA_CHANGED $TmkDataChanged::SCHEDULE 0
  set DSTlog [open /var/log/cronlog_dst a]
  set dateGMT [exec date]
  puts $DSTlog "$dateGMT - Reboot for DST fix (DST is now OFF)"
  close $DSTlog
  puts "Done, rebooting now ..."
  sync
  reboot
}

crontab:


Code:


0 7 8-14 3 * /var/hack/bin/DST_on_cron.tcl
1 6 1-7 4 * /var/hack/bin/DST_on_cron.tcl
0 6 25-31 10 * /var/hack/bin/DST_on_cron.tcl                                   
1 7 1-7 11 * /var/hack/bin/DST_off_cron.tcl

_Notes:_
These crontab entries are for Eastern Standard Time and Eastern Daylight Time; add one to the 2nd column for each timezone westward from there (example: Central time should read "8 7 7 8" down the 2nd column, Mountain is "9 8 8 9," etc). You'll still also need to adjust the TimeZoneOld values inside the tcl scripts, as described in Post #425, if you intend to use this anywhere else but the East.

Updates take place at 2:00 am in March and November and at 2:01 am in April and October (the extra minute is to allow the Tivo run the DST adjustment that was hard-coded for the old DST change; this script then undoes that).

The logging and rebooting are now built into the tcl files. Your Tivo *will* reboot after running this script!

Cron doesn't come with the S1 Tivo. You can download a precompiled version here.

If anyone wants to improve on this, feel free!


----------



## jimnoblett

bicker said:


> I
> 
> You implied that their actions weren't ethical. The fact that their actions are lawful means unequivocally that someone can legitimately consider them ethical, so they are not objectively unethical. Which is what I said.


I won't imply that TiVo's actions are unethical, I will come right out and say that they have acted in an unethical manner. It has been seen that there is a way to fix this DST problem, they have chosen not to do so. What reasoning is behind this decision, no one outside of TiVo can say. What is clear, however, is that they have decided to no longer provide me with the service that I PAID for. I don't know how you can spin that as anything other than unethical, but I'm sure you'll try.


----------



## direfan

LoadStar said:


> You know, this is the part that irritates me more than anything else.
> 
> No matter what the reason that TiVo decided not to update the series 1 units - whether it be financial, technical, or even if they just didn't feel like it - had they said something more than 3-4 days ahead of time, someone like jberman would've been able to come up with something as a work-around with enough time before the DST changeover.


Oh, I think they have a fix, they have just decided not to pass it on to the S1 owners. If they could successfully patch the Series 1 DirecTIVo then what is the problem with the S1 TIVOs. Honestly, their attitude sickens me. I give this company at the most another 2-3 years. Soon, they will screw over the S2 and S3 DVR's. What is particularly galling is the silence after the TIVO rep lobbed the bombshell.


----------



## timckelley

The TiVo reps have seagulled on us.


----------



## BobCamp1

Mars said:


> These TiVos aren't that old, how long before they call the series 3 OLD, and we don't support it, just take your money for using it each month.


The S3 was already obsolete when it launched, thanks to SDV. You want to see optimism, head over to the other forum. They think Tivo will magically create an add-on box to support SDV for the S3s! That's a huge hardware AND software change from a company that can't make a small software change to properly add an hour to the local time on both its S1 AND S2 models.

That clause everyone quotes also applies to the S3s. Thats why the $800 DVR doesn't have a lot of the features that the $80 DVR has, and never will. LOL. And people want me to spend a good chunk of money to switch?

I missed a recording today on my Tivo. The manual passes don't have the correct show name in the "Now Playing" list anymore, so when you adjust the season pass you don't know if you got it right or not until it's too late. Cosmetic issue my a$$.

And please setup a regular season pass for BBC World News on BBC America, and you'll understand why you still need manual recordings.

If I'm going to miss recordings, I might as well get the R15. At least it knows what time it is right now. And when it screws up, I call and complain and get compensation.


----------



## parzec

Great job jbermann! Tivo Steven and Tivo jerry need to respond immediatly to this latest development. They either need to fire their current crop of engineers or amend their claim of technical impossibility for the S1. I am serious - Tivo needs to set the record straight and give an honest explaination for their refusal to support the S1.


----------



## n548gxg

parzec said:


> Great job jbermann! Tivo Steven and Tivo jerry need to respond immediatly to this latest development. They either need to fire their current crop of engineers or amend their claim of technical impossibility for the S1. I am serious - Tivo needs to set the record straight and give an honest explaination for their refusal to support the S1.


I agree, it is making the Tivo team look like the three stooges.


----------



## sbourgeo

jberman said:


> Agreed. Well for starters, this new version (if used with cron) will only run on the 3rd Sunday in March, first Sunday in April, last Sunday in October and first Sunday in November (not every Sunday in March, April, October and November, plus every day of the week during the second week of March, first week of April, last week of October and first week of November, as my last attempt would have done!):


I was thinking of trying to avoid using hard-coded values where possible and go with a simplified and timezone-independent approach with a single tcl script and a single corresponding cron entry to make it easier to setup for any of the various timezones. In that case, everyone could use the same tcl script and would only have to set up a timezone-specific cron entry:



Code:


00 XX * 3,4,10,11 0 /var/hack/bin/DSTSet.tcl

The DSTSet.tcl script would be smart enough to figure out if it was time to make a DST change, grab the current TimeZoneOld from MFS and adjust automagically, instead of relying on timezone-specific hardcoded values.

I could crank this out pretty quickly if I could do it in Perl or shell script, but I'd have to cheat and read up on the TiVoWebPlus scripts to do it in tcl.


----------



## btwyx

BobCamp1 said:


> And please setup a regular season pass for BBC World News on BBC America, and you'll understand why you still need manual recordings.


I have a season pass for that, it works for me. Why do you want to do that as manual?


----------



## sbourgeo

parzec said:


> Great job jbermann! Tivo Steven and Tivo jerry need to respond immediatly to this latest development. They either need to fire their current crop of engineers or amend their claim of technical impossibility for the S1. I am serious - Tivo needs to set the record straight and give an honest explaination for their refusal to support the S1.


Although jbermann came up with a clever way to make this work given the limited resources we end-users have to work with, there is no way I would ever push a workaround like this out to my paying customers.


----------



## jimnoblett

sbourgeo said:


> Although jbermann came up with a clever way to make this work given the limited resources we end-users have to work with, there is no way I would ever push a workaround like this out to my paying customers.


Pushing jbermann's fix out to us paying customers would be a lot better than what TiVo actually did...


----------



## BobCamp1

btwyx said:


> I have a season pass for that, it works for me. Why do you want to do that as manual?


My Tivo tried to record every single episode, and it scheduled around 40 in the to do list. Even when I had it set to "first-run only". Doesn't yours do that? I really just want the 7:00 - 7:30 PM recording.

There are other shows like this too, hence the need for manual recordings.

Maybe I'll put in these tcl scripts and see if that fixes the issue. But why *I* have to do this is beyond me.


----------



## gastrof

direfan said:


> ...What is particularly galling is the silence after the TIVO rep lobbed the bombshell.


Well, to be fair, it's not even noon on Monday yet, and all of this "silence" was over the weekend.

TiVoJerry hasn't had much of a chance to talk with anyone in a "They got us...what do I say now?" fashion.


----------



## tlc

sbourgeo said:


> Although jbermann came up with a clever way to make this work given the limited resources we end-users have to work with, there is no way I would ever push a workaround like this out to my paying customers.


Agreed. Not to take anything away from jbermann. That's a nice hack for people who need it.

But people need to understand that software product development is a bit more involved. In a production environment, this would involve a source fix that doesn't depend on cron & reboot, code reviews, test plans, testing in different timezones and environments with different mixes of new and pre-existing manual recordings and season passes and lots and lots of management meetings discussing the progress  . It would be most proper to regression test the entire TiVo functionality. And if it wasn't planned for months ago, all of this needs to be done by people who are scheduled to do something else.

That said, it should have been done. They did it for the other products. They either chose not to do it or managed it poorly and blew the schedule. If we see no update before fall, then it was a choice.

If it was a choice, the only question left is whether they really believed that choice was low impact ("cosmetic" -- for S1 but not for others!) or whether that decision was designed to reduce the number of old, non-income producing, lifetime subscriptions & encourage upgrading to non-lifetime boxes.

The TiVo people who said a fix was coming are probably gagged from speaking on this topic.

tlc


----------



## kkimmell

BobCamp1 said:


> My Tivo tried to record every single episode, and it scheduled around 40 in the to do list. Even when I had it set to "first-run only". Doesn't yours do that? I really just want the 7:00 - 7:30 PM recording.
> 
> There are other shows like this too, hence the need for manual recordings.
> 
> Maybe I'll put in these tcl scripts and see if that fixes the issue. But why *I* have to do this is beyond me.


Not exactly the same but my request for First Run Only on the Daily Show results in recording a sh$%load of episodes including multiple of the same one as well as every rerun that hits on the weekend. I ended up putting a manual recording in for weeknights from 11-11:30 to alleviate this. I think it's because of bad guide data for that particular show as I notice that the non "new" ones its recording always has a very vanilla description and doesn't have the "R" tag for rerun.


----------



## Dajad

I have the same BBC issue, same with Hardball, Fox's Special Report with Britt Hume - any show that repeats several times during the day, the only way to get the version you want it so set up manual Seasons passes. So I spent some time yesterday changing all my S1 manual Seasons passes (I have about 10 of them) so they will work during these 3 weeks. And I get to do it all again 4 times a year now! Whoo hoo! Fun!

...Dale


----------



## osterber

Consider me one of the highly annoyed lifetime Series 1 (Sony) customers. This is pathetic. Unfortunately, I haven't hacked my Tivo at this point, and don't really have time to do it right now. And I have a good pile of manual recordings.

-Rick


----------



## ZeoTiVo

sbourgeo said:


> Although jbermann came up with a clever way to make this work given the limited resources we end-users have to work with, there is no way I would ever push a workaround like this out to my paying customers.


Plus the forced rebooting at Midnight would be less than ideal for many Season passses and also find some "on the edge" hard drives and tip them over thus leading to Customer Complaints on the "fix" breaking their working S1 for good.


----------



## trainboy

On my Series 1 with version 3.0, I changed the code for updating for DST to the following line:



Code:


event send $TmkEvent::EVT_DATA_CHANGED $TmkDataChanged::SCHEDULE 0

This causes the TiVo to update the ToDo list, rather than setting toll free dial in access.


----------



## visionary

Congratulations hackers! A big thank you for working out a fix. An idea I HAD way back in this thread that seemed ignored, I may not know the FIX, but I know how to GET IT FIXED you will have to agree. I knew a stand alone program run after the Tivo boots would do it, and it did. Let them get all the little bugs out and show the creators how poor a job they did. Some software guy might even get axed if he told his big bosses it can't be done. GOODIE!


----------



## BobCamp1

ZeoTiVo said:


> Plus the forced rebooting at Midnight would be less than ideal for many Season passses and also find some "on the edge" hard drives and tip them over thus leading to Customer Complaints on the "fix" breaking their working S1 for good.


Please... if the Tivo can't survive a power outage or a software upgrade, it's near the end of its life anyway. (congratulations, THAT'S the worst excuse I've heard so far...)

Plus, the real solution would just need the one reboot after the software upgrade. This is just a workaround hacked together in a day by someone who doesn't even work at Tivo. And it's 80% of the way there.

Does anyone really think this could not be done the correct way? If the DST rules were changed in 2003, would Tivo have reacted in the same way? They simply lied and said it couldn't be done. They meant to add, "for the amount of money we wanted to spend fixing it, which was very, very low."


----------



## BobCamp1

jimnoblett said:


> I suspect that the post TiVoJerry made here was given to him by the TiVo legal department, and was meant to deflect liability. Since jberman's patch seems to work, I would like to see TiVoJerry step up to the plate and explain WHY TiVo can't seem to fix this.


He's too busy applying the patch to his own Tivo.


----------



## bicker

BobCamp1 said:


> The S3 was already obsolete when it launched, thanks to SDV. You want to see optimism, head over to the other forum. They think Tivo will magically create an add-on box to support SDV for the S3s! That's a huge hardware AND software change from a company that can't make a small software change to properly add an hour to the local time on both its S1 AND S2 models.


While I don't agree with everything you say, this, at least, is very well said. :up:


----------



## dhulcher

If TiVo *won't* create a working S1 update only to fix the DST, then I will avoid purchasing TiVo in the future because I can't trust them to always support S1, S2, S3, S4, etc.

If TiVo *can't* create a working S1 update only to fix the DST (for example because they don't think they can do it without screwing things up), then I will avoid purchasing TiVo in the future because I can't trust their programming and testing skill level.


----------



## trainboy

BTW, I've read a lot of speculation about how time works on TiVo Series 1. If anyone is interested, here's my synopsis:

The clock on the box is set to GMT. At periodic intervals (i.e. whenever guide data is downloaded), the software runs a program called ntpdate which synchronizes the clock on the box with a NTP server (see ntp dawt org, for the full story). This ensures that the clock is fairly accurate at that point. In between, the local oscillator is used to keep the clock ticking so, depending on how accurate that is, time may precess a little bit (but who's checking).

All of the guide data is sent with times in GMT, as well. Scheduling is also done in GMT. That's why any programs that are scheduled off of guide data should be recorded at the correct time, since we're talking apples and apples.

Local time is simply calculated by adding or subtracting an offset to the GMT clock. When Joe User enters a local time, the offset is added to get GMT (at least where I sit -- Australia is the other way around). When a GMT timestamp is displayed, the offset is subtracted to get local time.

The messing about with DST and timezones is all done in software. When the software thinks it is DST, it changes the adjustment between GMT and local time by subtracting 3600 seconds. When it thinks it is standard time, it adds 3600 seconds. Changing from the current time zone to the next one eastwards does the same thing (it subtracts 3600 seconds). It makes no nevermind to the clock how you subtracted the 3600 seconds.

Many *nix systems that use the GNU C library have a set of files that describe all of the whack-oh changes to the clock that the local pols can think of (even in Indiana). These are the sometimes talked about /usr/share/zoneinfo files. When you change the timezone on one of these systems, it usually updates a link in /etc/localtime to point to the appropriate zoneinfo file. Essentially, these files have a list of dates and times which tell the system when to add or subtract 3600 seconds to adjust for DST (or whatever). Occasionally, the local pols mess with things (as they just did) and one has to go get a new set of zoneinfo files. That took about 10 minutes. Configurable software. What a concept.

That doesn't happen in TiVo-land. Instead, somewhere within the time software, somebody appears to have coded up a simple little algorithim for guessing when the change to/from DST should happen. So far, it worked but not this week. So, we need to come up with another way of telling the system that the GMT offset is 3600 seconds less this week. Like changing the timezone east by one. And, when the simple little algorithm figures out that it really is DST, we'll probably have to put the timezone back west by one (I guess we'll know in three weeks).

Meanwhile, how does this affect the manual recording? When you pick a time for a manual recording, you use local time. It appears that the local time that you picked is actually saved in the internal description of the recording (you'll see why in a second). When the manual recording is scheduled into the ToDo list, its time is converted to GMT because all scheduling is done in GMT. So, if the offset between GMT and local time is off by 3600 seconds, the recording occurs one hour too late. The GMT/localtime offset can be changed but the ToDo list will still be wrong. However, if something happens to cause it to be rebuilt, the new GMT/localtime offset will be used to calculate new schedule times and all will be well.

Incidentally, it does not appear that changing the time zone has any effect unless the TiVo is rebooted. Just one of those things.

So, we can see that there are a number of ways to fix the busted GMT offset caused by DST being moved. One is to monkey with the time zones. Another is to set the clock offset through software control (it would appear that the function settimeofday will do this so that a little program could be written to do so every time the TiVo were booted or the clock set via ntpdate -- I actually thought about doing this until the easier timezone kludge came along). The third would be to fix the DST calculation algorithm. I'm sure, were I given 19 months to ponder the problem, I could probably come up with some other methods. Its no big deal, really.

BTW, allow me to digress on the issue of version control for a moment. I suggest that anybody who doesn't have a complete copy of each release' code, plus all of the tools that went into the build, and a platform to run it on, ain't really serious about being in the software biz. I know when I was doing it, we'd delete everything and build the whole system from scratch then compare it to the distro. If it didn't match, there were not a lot of happy faces that day. I certainly wouldn't be using that argument unless I was fixin' to look like a laughing stock.


----------



## BTUx9

I know many have criticized tivo's s/w for using internal DST calculations instead of the configurable ones that use the zoneinfo files.

My question: were those in common use and bug-free, under linux, at the time the earliest tivos were being designed? Also, was this pre-LGPL (meaning, by linking to them, would tivo's s/w have been virally infected with GPL)


----------



## kdmorse

When the S1's were built - they we under very, very tight memory constraints. As a result, everything, and I mean *everything* that wasn't needed for the main application to work was stripped out of both the kernel, and any libraries (such as glibc) that wasn't absolutely needed. 

For example, they stripped everything related to DNS servers out, gethostbyname() isn't there, even the hostent structure is missing from the kernel. (which is why you can run netstat -rn, but netstat -n itself segfaults).

It would not surprise me one bit if the inclusion of the standard timezone glob was at the time considered far to weighty, compared to either a hardcoded table in the myworld, or a table in MFS (why use a separate database, when you already have one). Increased flexibility almost always comes with a increased memory footprint, and they were trying to keep the footprint as small as possible.

Just a guess however...

-Ken


----------



## VictorWI

Although my mind has fogged over the years, I remember long ago (maybe 1.2 or 1.3) how recordings that happened over the time shift of DST would get messed up. This was fixed by Tivo and any recordings, whether manual or guide based would work. 

I don't profess to understand the patch and I may be wrong but I'm guessing that although it is a suitable work-around it will not address this issue. You will have to schedule and monitor your cron jobs around any recordings 4 times a year. If this is the case TiVo is not going to release something like it.


----------



## vinniet

trainboy said:


> On my Series 1 with version 3.0, I changed the code for updating for DST to the following line:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> event send $TmkEvent::EVT_DATA_CHANGED $TmkDataChanged::SCHEDULE 0
> 
> This causes the TiVo to update the ToDo list, rather than setting toll free dial in access.


Sorry can you give more detail information. I have browsed around the Tivo HD using MFTools boot CD. Can you give more information on what file you changed and where it is.

Thanks!


----------



## vinniet

jberman said:


> Agreed. Well for starters, this new version (if used with cron) will only run on the 3rd Sunday in March, first Sunday in April, last Sunday in October and first Sunday in November (not every Sunday in March, April, October and November, plus every day of the week during the second week of March, first week of April, last week of October and first week of November, as my last attempt would have done!).
> 
> *WARNING:* these updated scripts are designed to work with cron *only* (it will only run on Sundays and automatically resets your Tivo). If you want to run the script manually, use the version that I posted in Post #425 above.


Hello .... I have a unmodified Tivo Sony S1 that I have played with. I have access to pull the HD and boot with MFSTools to modified files. My questions is can I make these changes? Will they work?

Like I said I have a good understanding of the Tivo HD, by just modified crontab will this work (with the tcl in the proper location)? On what partition? Etc

Thanks,

Vinnie


----------



## jimnoblett

BobCamp1 said:


> He's too busy applying the patch to his own Tivo.


I hope I can get the beer out of my keyboard...


----------



## btwyx

BobCamp1 said:


> My Tivo tried to record every single episode, and it scheduled around 40 in the to do list. Even when I had it set to "first-run only". Doesn't yours do that? I really just want the 7:00 - 7:30 PM recording.


Every issue of the news is a first run, so its doing exactly what you told it. Its not a series of repeats. My season pass records every episode (in the absence of conflicts) which is exactly what I want it to do. I want to have the latest bullitin available. Things happen overnight in the world, so I can watch the 3,4 or 5am edition.


> There are other shows like this too, hence the need for manual recordings.


There are shows which have a problem with guide data and will need a manual recording, the BBC news is not one of them.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

VictorWI said:


> Although my mind has fogged over the years, I remember long ago (maybe 1.2 or 1.3) how recordings that happened over the time shift of DST would get messed up. This was fixed by Tivo and any recordings, whether manual or guide based would work.
> 
> I don't profess to understand the patch and I may be wrong but I'm guessing that although it is a suitable work-around it will not address this issue. You will have to schedule and monitor your cron jobs around any recordings 4 times a year. If this is the case TiVo is not going to release something like it.


Yes, this is one of the aspects I was alluding to. I have no idea how easy or simple a fix that TiVo would feel correct in putting out is. I have no idea if the engineers showed a fix and management knocked it down for liability reasons, cost reasosn or what.

I do know that TiVo would have to take more into account than just a "should work on most S1's, we think but are not sure since we have not done full regression testing. I am only saying that the bar for TiVo releasing a fix is much higher than for a 3rd party who is being helpful but ultimately not liable nor required to fix any unintended bugs introduced.

so I can understand everyone wanting their S1 working correctly but the expectations of what TiVo must go through to deliver what they should need be realistic


----------



## Rowsdower

bicker said:


> The original message wasn't a lie because it was predictive. It was a mistake, not a lie.


I didn't quote the original message (by TiVoStephen) in this instance. I quoted the claim made by TiVoJerry *after* the fact (that TiVo's "engineers continued to investigate & test all possibilities up to the last moment"), and you conveniently snipped this and wrote the above.

_My_ belief is that TiVo made an honest mistake. _Yours_ is that the company deliberately decided not to update the standalone Series1 units. If you're correct, TiVoStephen's subsequent claim is a lie. But again, I don't believe that.



> _And with regard to the later statement, there is nothing that precludes any considerations from the decision that they're informing you of, except your own fiat._


How do you figure? If your theory is accurate, how could TiVo's engineers have been working on a solution "up to the last moment"?



> _You implied that their actions weren't ethical._


No. I believe that *your* theory paints their actions as unethical. Mine merely means that they erred.



> _The fact that their actions are lawful means unequivocally that someone can legitimately consider them ethical, so they are not objectively unethical. Which is what I said._


That's what *I* said! I plainly stated that overlapping boundaries could be drawn. I'm merely disputing your implication it's unreasonable for anyone to deem any lawful action unethical.



> _So you're basing your arguments on your own, perhaps distorted, view of someone else's values, rather than allowing their actions to clearly demonstrate what their values really are._


No. I'm conveying my perception of TiVo's values (of which I strongly approve) and indicating that if TiVo's values have changed (or my perception is incorrect), I no longer perceive TiVo in the same light as before.

A company's belief that it's doing the right thing doesn't require others to agree.



> _And please allow those of us who wish to, to rebut such criticism._


I'm not trying to stop you. I'm merely defending my right to express it in the first place.



> _As I mentioned in another thread, I don't see how this minor issue with this small number of obsolete-product customers compares to the problems TiVo has left unremedied for long periods of time for large numbers of current-model customers._


Such as?



> _In addition to my S1, I have two of the earlier S2 units. I already know that they're living on borrowed time._


Okay, but I was addressing your claim that Series1 models (specifically) are "beyond obsolete." You drew a distinction between the Series1 and Series2 lines where none exists.



> _Yup, I had a feeling that that was the case, but I was sure that that was the case for devices with display screens, so that's the analog I presented. I'm glad to know my analogy was more applicable than I presented it._


No, it wasn't. The fact that something became illegal to manufacture eleven days ago (or one year, eleven days ago under a purely hypothetical scenario) doesn't mean that all existing units suddenly were rendered "beyond obsolete." You're entitled to believe that this describes most of the standalone TiVo boxes sold (some of which remain on store shelves), but I disagree.



> _In writing as part of a signed contract? Or are you asking whether we should condemn to hell anyone who makes an off-the-cuff promise, not knowing what that promise entails, in a discussion forum, and then has to recant?_


1. Again, this isn't a legal issue (no matter how hard you try to make it one). I'm _not_ arguing that TiVo is legally obligated to provide a fix.

2. TiVo's "Director of TiVoCast Operations" shouldn't make off-the-cuff promises without knowing what they entail, and I have more confidence in TiVoStephen than to believe that this occurred. Circumstances can change, but I believe the statement in question was appropriate (given the information available at the time). I certainly don't think that it was a lie.

3. I'm not condemning anyone. I asked whether it would be reasonable for someone to expect something that was promised to him/her (_not_ whether the failure to live up to said promise is indicative of fraud or malice).

4. The original promise has *not* been recanted. Again, assuming that TiVo no longer intends to provide a fix (which I hope is not the case), is it unreasonable to expect an unambiguous announcement?


----------



## jberman

trainboy said:


> BTW, I've read a lot of speculation about how time works on TiVo Series 1. If anyone is interested, here's my synopsis...


Nice summary, trainboy.

I would add that it's unclear whether the Tivo software adds/subtracts 3600 seconds to the current offset, or just flat out sets the offset to something different. In case it's the former, I've set my crontab to re-run my script at 2:01 am on the first Sunday in April. Since I use the brute force "set the offset to -14400 seconds [GMT-4], dammit!" method, it should undo any tinkering by the Tivo software that might or might not happen at 2:00 am.

I agree that a more savvy, single-script approach would probably be better, but at least this way I won't have to worry about the Tivo software trying to mess up the time zone in April.

_Update:_ I tweaked my scripts a little to hopefully show me how TivoApp is changing the offset, whether it's the brute-force or delta method. Should know more on April 1.


----------



## jberman

vinniet said:


> Hello .... I have a unmodified Tivo Sony S1 that I have played with. I have access to pull the HD and boot with MFSTools to modified files. My questions is can I make these changes? Will they work?


I really don't know.... I don't have _any_ experience with Sony S1s. Other than this little fix, the only hacking I've ever done was to install TWP.  If you get cron working, I suspect the tcl scripts could really go anywhere. Just make sure you change the paths in the crontab entries.


----------



## jberman

Has anyone else successfully patched their Tivo using the tcl scripts, besides me?


----------



## jenbob67

Did I get a different message from Tivo than everyone else? I have a Series1(lifetime).
It states:

March 11th through April 1st, 2007 several of the DVRs screens will display a time one hour behind the actual time.

So for three weeks I have to live with the wrong time on my Tivo.  
*BIG DEAL!* I'll have to use the clock on the cable box.

And as far as support, what kind of support are you looking for?
Software,Hardeware???

Hardware: they do but it's easier and cheaper to do it yourself.

Software: they still update the program guide. 
As far as TTG and HME and everything else they were never available on a series1 from day one. I wish they were, but o'well. Thats why they came out with a series2.
I haven't read any threads from Series2 owners complaining why series3 have "HD" and they didn't.


----------



## timckelley

jenbob67 said:


> I haven't read any threads from Series2 owners complaining why series3 have "HD" and they didn't.


That's because Series 2 are not advertised by TiVo as supporting HD.


----------



## stujac

All my recordings went off without a hitch. I have no "manual" recordings so I guess it's ok on my end.


----------



## timckelley

Ironically about the same time as this DST change, the clock battery on my PC's motherboard died, and now my computer won't boot.


----------



## jenbob67

timckelley said:


> That's because Series 2 are not advertised by TiVo as supporting HD.


Sorry, you missed my point. I was trying to be funny about the whole "support" thing.


----------



## jsmeeker

jberman said:


> Has anyone else successfully patched their Tivo using the tcl scripts, besides me?


not even going to attempt such a thing, as I really have no way to do it.


----------



## Rowsdower

jenbob67 said:


> Sorry, you missed my point. I was trying to be funny about the whole "support" thing.


But your analogy didn't make sense. People are complaining about the loss of advertised functionality that they formerly possessed, _not_ the failure to add unadvertised functionality that never existed.

Regarding your main point, I recognize the fact that this situation results in nothing more than minor inconvenience for some users (and I'm happy for you). Why is it so difficult for various posters to understand that others are affected to a far greater extent? This "I don't have a major problem, so what's the big deal?!" attitude is baffling.


----------



## jberman

I just posted updated instructions for how to create a useful crontab file in conjunction with the update scripts. This should help people who want to apply the workaround who don't live in the East. The instructions are at the end of Post #446.


----------



## Skyhawk85u

jberman, I haven't tried it yet, but I will do it this week and will report back. I've hacked and tweaked my TiVo for years, but never fooled around with crontab and don't actually know a heckuva lot about Linux (although I've fooled with cron a bit on my Asterisk box.) What's the best way to create the crontab on TiVo?


----------



## trainboy

jberman said:


> Has anyone else successfully patched their Tivo using the tcl scripts, besides me?


Yep. I patched four of mine. I had to whack one on the head to get it to redo the ToDo list but, other than that, they're all working fine (as far as I can tell).

The ToDo list thing was why I made the change to:



Code:


event send $TmkEvent::EVT_DATA_CHANGED $TmkDataChanged::SCHEDULE 0

which I guess it wasn't obvious that it was intended for jberman's code. On my TiVos (at least) the following:



Code:


event send 23 16 0

causes Toll Free Access to be set, whereas what I suggest (above) causes the schedule data (i.e. ToDo list) to be updated.


----------



## jberman

trainboy said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> event send $TmkEvent::EVT_DATA_CHANGED $TmkDataChanged::SCHEDULE 0
> 
> which I guess it wasn't obvious that it was intended for jberman's code. On my TiVos (at least) the following:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> event send 23 16 0
> 
> causes Toll Free Access to be set, whereas what I suggest (above) causes the schedule data (i.e. ToDo list) to be updated.


Huh... I confess I never understood why the "event send 23 16 0" was there... I just copied it from a different script. TFA for me is 0.

Would you recommend adding your line to the DST hack?


----------



## trainboy

kdmorse said:


> When the S1's were built - they we under very, very tight memory constraints. As a result, everything, and I mean *everything* that wasn't needed for the main application to work was stripped out of both the kernel, and any libraries (such as glibc) that wasn't absolutely needed.
> 
> It would not surprise me one bit if the inclusion of the standard timezone glob was at the time considered far to weighty, compared to either a hardcoded table in the myworld, or a table in MFS (why use a separate database, when you already have one). Increased flexibility almost always comes with a increased memory footprint, and they were trying to keep the footprint as small as possible.


No arguments about the shortage of memory. The S1's do not have much by today's standards. However, I grew up on a machine that had 8K of memory (that's no typo) so I know about doing things in a constrained space.

For example, the timezone offset does not need to be calculated but once. At boot time, a program could run that does all of the timezone file stuff and comes up with a number. Then, it simply stuffs this number somewhere that the kernel or C library routines can find it and is gone. Perhaps, once a day at 02:01, the program could be rerun to check for DST.

As for patching things now, if there is an algorithm that looks for the first week of April and rolls the clock back an hour, it could be patched to look for the second week of March. Six of one, half dozen of the other. We're not talking about implementing the entire zoneinfo arrangement, just fixing a couple of lines of now-broken code.

Finally, while I'm on the subject, I think the problem of recording through the DST change is solved. I hope people are not seriously suggesting that moving the day that DST changes to March from April will break that. If so, there's way too much spaghetti in there for my liking. Were you to ask me how to solve this problem, I'd suggest that recording times be represented as a start time and run time. Then, once the recording has started it doesn't matter what the clock does.

I know, most elapsed times are just calculated by subtracting two wall clock times so how to implement an elapsed timer that doesn't worry about DST changes? Well, you can change the code to store the DST flag as well as the timestamp or you could even look at file size (since the MPEG encoder seems to produce constant file sizes regardless of the content).

Anyway, I'm not trying to design new code for TiVo. All I'm saying is that, "If I can figure out a way to do it, so can somebody else, since, as my friends and family will tell you, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer". I'm willing to bet that the real story is that nobody put much effort into this subject, since S1's are more or less passe.


----------



## trainboy

jberman said:


> Huh... I confess I never understood why the "event send 23 16 0" was there... I just copied it from a different script. TFA for me is 0.
> 
> Would you recommend adding it to the DST hack?


Well, the TiVo does a bunch of things in the background so that it can spend most of its time converting Buffy The Vampire Slayer into bytes and laying those bytes down on the hard drive. That and tracking which buttons you press on the remote control so that the marketing guys will have lots of data to digest. 

Consequently, whenever you do some work, like changing the program data, messing with the headends, and, yes, even changing the timezone, you must tell the background task what you've done. Then, when it gets around to it, it will index your new program data, rebuild the headend, etc. That's the point of the message. You are sending an event to another task telling it what you did.

In your code, you chose to use hard-coded constants whereas I picked the symbolics. The main reason I like symbolics is that, when the enum file changes, your code keeps working. So, while "23 16 0" might work on one machine, it might cause TFA to get set on another. And, since we're sending it a message, we might as well send a message that is relevant to what we did. In this case, we monkeyed with the clock which made the schedule be broken. So, the message about the schedule change is relevant.

I would suggest you change the code in your script but you are the best judge of whether you should or not. Its hard to argue with "working".


----------



## jberman

trainboy said:


> I would suggest you change the code in your script but you are the best judge of whether you should or not. Its hard to argue with "working".


You clearly know a lot more about this than I do. I'm just stumbling around, really... it's a miracle that I didn't blow up my Tivo... but I'm a relative newcomer. My first computer had 8 times more memory than yours. 

I tested the symbolics and they seem to work fine, so I changed the scripts in my earlier posts.

Thanks, Jesse


----------



## Skyhawk85u

OK, I guess I'm more clueless than I thought. I wanted to just run your first script manually to see how it works, then figured I could run the other one to set it back, too. I thought I could just run it from a telnet session, but no dice (bunch of error messages, commands not found, etc.) Am I doing something obvious wrong?


----------



## timckelley

trainboy said:


> However, I grew up on a machine that had 8K of memory (that's no typo)


My first microcomputer had only 2K of RAM memory and no hard drive. I really had to write efficient code on that thing.


----------



## jberman

Skyhawk85u said:


> OK, I guess I'm more clueless than I thought. I wanted to just run your first script manually to see how it works, then figured I could run the other one to set it back, too. I thought I could just run it from a telnet session, but no dice (bunch of error messages, commands not found, etc.) Am I doing something obvious wrong?


It's possible, I suppose, that the paths are different on different models of Tivos. What model do you have?


----------



## Skyhawk85u

jberman said:


> It's possible, I suppose, that the paths are different on different models of Tivos. What model do you have?


Uh, it's one of the original S1's. I don't remember what model. I'm attaching a screenshot of the results. I created the tcl files using Joe.

(As far as my other panicked post that I've since deleted, that was unrelated.)


----------



## jberman

Skyhawk85u said:


> Uh, it's one of the original S1's. I don't remember what model. I'm attaching a screenshot of the results. I created the tcl files using Joe.
> 
> (As far as my other panicked post that I've since deleted, that was unrelated.)


Glad to hear that the panic post was unrelated. Hope you got it resolved!

Those errors make it look like TCL isn't working properly on your Tivo. Couple questions right off the bat: What version of the Tivo software are you running? AFAIK this will only work on 3.0.

Also, the very first line in both of the TCL files, #!/tvbin/tivosh, is very important. I know it looks like a comment but it isn't. You didn't accidentally remove it, did you?

Finally, can you confirm that the following files exist on your Tivo:

/tvlib/tcl/tv/Inc.itcl
/tvlib/tcl/tv/mfslib.tcl
/tvbin/tivosh

And if all else fails, please post the TCL files you created with joe and I'll have a look.

P.S.: One other idea, after you create the TCL files you'll have to make them executable with the command "chmod a+x DSTSpringAhead.tcl" and "chmod a+x DSTFallBack.tcl" ... and when you run them, try issuing the command ./DSTSpringAhead.tcl (with the additional dot-slash at the beginning) ... you probably already know about that stuff but it's worth mentioning.


----------



## Skyhawk85u

Yeah - that was from a messed-up rc.sysinit.author, I think, from something else I had been doing (apparently I hadn't rebooted since screwing it up.) Luckily, you get a few seconds to telnet and ftp into TiVo before it resets itself, and I was able to copy back an older rc.sysinit.author.

Anyway, yes, I'm running version 3.0-01-1-000. I did include that first line, although it looks like Joe moved it down a line (there's a blank line at the top that I can't seem to get rid of?)

I did "chmod 755 DSTSpringAhead.tcl", not what you mentioned above. I know enough to be dangerous when it comes to Linux. 

I ran it from the same directory, so didn't include the "./"

Are there files I can back up before trying this again? I don't want to have another panic attack!


----------



## jberman

Skyhawk85u said:


> Yeah - that was from a messed-up rc.sysinit.author, I think, from something else I had been doing (apparently I hadn't rebooted since screwing it up.) Luckily, you get a few seconds to telnet and ftp into TiVo before it resets itself, and I was able to copy back an older rc.sysinit.author.
> 
> Anyway, yes, I'm running version 3.0-01-1-000. I did include that first line, although it looks like Joe moved it down a line (there's a blank line at the top that I can't seem to get rid of?)
> 
> I did "chmod 755 DSTSpringAhead.tcl", not what you mentioned above. I know enough to be dangerous when it comes to Linux.
> 
> I ran it from the same directory, so didn't include the "./"
> 
> Are there files I can back up before trying this again? I don't want to have another panic attack!


I would really try to make sure that #!/tvbin/tivosh is absolutely the first line in the file (no blank lines or any other characters before it). If that first line is incorrect, it would explain the output from your first attempt.

_*Update:*_ In fact, that is EXACTLY the problem. Remove that blank line and you'll be all set. I just wrote a test tcl script that worked fine when the first line was #!/tvbin/tivosh but completely broke down when I added a blank line before it.

A rather crude way of removing the line would be to copy the entire script (minus the blank line at the beginning, of course) onto your PC clipboard, then at the Tivo bash prompt, issue the command

cat > DSTScript_new.tcl

and paste your script contents. When it finishes pasting, hit return again (for good measure) and then CTRL-d. The one caveat with this method is that really long lines can get messed up, so you might want to check that any long lines aren't cut off.


----------



## Skyhawk85u

Thanks jberman - I'll give that a try. Uh, tomorrow - I don't want to risk screwing up my recordings tonight!  Actually I still can't get rid of that leading blank line using Joe. What did you use to edit the file on TiVo?

If this works manually I think I'm going to just run these scripts by hand 4x/year rather than rely on cron to do it right.


----------



## jberman

Skyhawk85u said:


> Thanks jberman - I'll give that a try. Uh, tomorrow - I don't want to risk screwing up my recordings tonight!


OK, good luck... please report back!



> Actually I still can't get rid of that leading blank line using Joe. What did you use to edit the file on TiVo?


Uh, I didn't do anything special... just wrote it with joe. I've never had a problem with blank lines. No idea what the problem is on your Tivo, I'm afraid.  Have you tried using the "cat" method in my last post? You could also edit on your PC and FTP over to the Tivo.



> If this works manually I think I'm going to just run these scripts by hand 4x/year rather than rely on cron to do it right.


The good news is that it might actually only be necessary twice a year. It depends on how tivoapp deals with the DST change. We should have a better idea after April 1.


----------



## timckelley

This knowledge/ability of the series 1 hackers is impressive. To bad they don't work for TiVo.


----------



## webcrush

jberman said:


> Has anyone else successfully patched their Tivo using the tcl scripts, besides me?


I'm trying but I'm getting a TCL error (errDbNotFound) regarding the /State/LocationConfig object.

Is there anyway to confirm whether or not my system support this script. I know its a S1, but its been so long since I really climbed under the covers that I couldn't tell you much more.

I CAN say that I have the required files you listed above.


----------



## jberman

webcrush said:


> I'm trying but I'm getting a TCL error (errDbNotFound) regarding the /State/LocationConfig object.
> 
> Is there anyway to confirm whether or not my system support this script. I know its a S1, but its been so long since I really climbed under the covers that I couldn't tell you much more.
> 
> I CAN say that I have the required files you listed above.


Couple quick things to check:

What's your Tivo software version? Go to Messages & Setup, then System Information. This patch has only been tested on Software Version 3.0-01-1-000.

If you have TivoWeb or TivoWebPlus, use it to browse the MFS database and look for /State/LocationConfig (in TivoWebPlus, browsing the MFS is an option under 'More Modules'). What are the values in that object? It would help if you could post them here.

Also helpful would be the exact error you're getting when you try to run the script.


----------



## Opusnbill7

The best thing was turning on my S1 today and seeing a new item on the main menu advertising the "Unbox" program with Amazon. I'm sure glad that they can make sure that I can see an ad for something I CANT USE, but they can't fix my clock for DST.


----------



## webcrush

jberman said:


> Couple quick things to check:
> 
> What's your Tivo software version? Go to Messages & Setup, then System Information. This patch has only been tested on Software Version 3.0-01-1-000.
> 
> If you have TivoWeb or TivoWebPlus, use it to browse the MFS database and look for /State/LocationConfig (in TivoWebPlus, browsing the MFS is an option under 'More Modules'). What are the values in that object? It would help if you could post them here.
> 
> Also helpful would be the exact error you're getting when you try to run the script.


Thx,

thats what I started doing and found that there was no /State/LocationConfig listed in the MFS browser. I started going through them all with weak hopes that it might be a different name/path but no luck so far.

My software version was: 2.5.2-01-1-001

The full output of the script was:

<166>Mar 13 02:37:46 tcl[272]: Tcl created pool of 1458176 bytes
can't open object (errDbNotFound)

while executing
"db $db open /State/LocationConfig"
invoked from within
"transaction {
set setup [db $db open /State/LocationConfig]
puts "Springing ahead one hour ..."
dbobj $setup set TimeZoneOld 23
}"
(file "./DSTSpringAhead.tcl" line 5)


----------



## Opusnbill7

webcrush said:


> Thx,
> 
> thats what I started doing and found that there was no /State/LocationConfig listed in the MFS browser. I started going through them all with weak hopes that it might be a different name/path but no luck so far.
> 
> My software version was: 2.5.2-01-1-001
> 
> The full output of the script was:
> 
> <166>Mar 13 02:37:46 tcl[272]: Tcl created pool of 1458176 bytes
> can't open object (errDbNotFound)
> 
> while executing
> "db $db open /State/LocationConfig"
> invoked from within
> "transaction {
> set setup [db $db open /State/LocationConfig]
> puts "Springing ahead one hour ..."
> dbobj $setup set TimeZoneOld 23
> }"
> (file "./DSTSpringAhead.tcl" line 5)


You must be an "unsubscribed" user (that is, not paying monthly or have a lifetime sub) based on that software version. Is that correct?


----------



## timckelley

I wonder if a workaround for this person would be to subscribe his unit on a monthly plan, then cancel the sub within 30 days and get a 100% refund of fees. Meanwhile, during the free 30-day-look I assume he'd get an automatic software upgrade. Or is that right? Can S1's get a free software upgrade? I'd think they'd at least upgrade to the latest S1 version.


----------



## webcrush

Lifetime sub


----------



## Opusnbill7

webcrush said:


> Lifetime sub


Hmmm....weird....I would have figured all lifetimers would be on 3.0.01?


----------



## webcrush

Maybe I'm just out of the loop, should these updates be automatic? How are they retrieved?


----------



## Opusnbill7

As far as I know they're automatic when your Tivo connects to update its guide data. Of course, I'm more of a user than a "hacker" so my knowledge about it is pretty limited.


----------



## webcrush

I'm a DTV user so my guide is via the DTV feed. No phone line required.


----------



## timckelley

Didn't all DTV users get the DST patch courtesy of TiVo? (While the rest of us S1 chumps got stiffed )


----------



## webcrush

I sure hope not cuz I'm paying the bastiges.


----------



## Opusnbill7

webcrush said:


> I'm a DTV user so my guide is via the DTV feed. No phone line required.


Oh...well that's an entirely different type of animal. From your previous posts it sounded to me like you had an S1 standalone. 2.5.2 (or whatever) may be the current version for the S1 DTV....so, nevermind. Forget I mentioned it.

However, why in the heck would you need the hack? Your Tivo was supposedly updated to work correctly already. (You lucky dog...) If it isn't, I think I'd call DTV or Tivo (whoever supports the S1 DTV Tivo now) and ask them why you didn't get the fix that Tivo talks about on their website.


----------



## timckelley

webcrush said:


> I sure hope not cuz I'm paying the bastiges.


 You said you're a DTV user, and I said the DTV users got the patch sent to them, so I don't understand your statement. Don't you want the patch?


----------



## webcrush

My 'I hope not' was meant that since I haven't gotten jack for my Tivo from them, they better not be stiffing me.

Guess I'll have to call them tommorow (like that will get me anywhere).

I was able to advance the time through the 'date' command but it advances the guide as well, so everything stays screwed up.

I was hoping this fix would have worked for me.


----------



## webcrush

Well look at that, I guess they are offering an update.

Too bad I'll never get it because there is no phone line to be had.


----------



## Rottluver

timckelley said:


> Didn't all DTV users get the DST patch courtesy of TiVo? (While the rest of us S1 chumps got stiffed )


I got mine a couple days before the DST change went into effect**....worked without any problems. Sorry to the rest of y'all who don't have the DTV hookup. 

** Was retrieved via a "forced" call and a restart of my Tivo........no issues (so far) whatsoever.


----------



## Opusnbill7

webcrush said:


> Well look at that, I guess they are offering an update.
> 
> Too bad I'll never get it because there is no phone line to be had.


Well...that does suck. However, that's really your problem (due to your choice of not having a landline---which I don't either), not Tivo's. 

Although, can the DTV units be "hacked" to add ethernet (like the Turbonet or something)? I don't know...just a question maybe someone else knows?

Or, why don't you take it over to a friend's place, let it dial in, get the update, and bring it home?


----------



## webcrush

I've modded so its got wireless ethernet, maybe I'll look around to see if anyone has a patch for this


----------



## murgatroyd

BobCamp1 said:


> I missed a recording today on my Tivo. The manual passes don't have the correct show name in the "Now Playing" list anymore, so when you adjust the season pass you don't know if you got it right or not until it's too late. Cosmetic issue my a$$.


What model do you have?

On both of my S1 SAs, it works fine, as long as you set up the Manual Recording for Standard Time instead of DST.

CBS Sunday Morning (which lasts an hour and a half) airs at 6:00 AM PDT. A manual recording set for 90 minutes starting at 5:00 AM (the standard-time equivalent of its current start time) shows Manual: CBS Sunday Morning -- just as it ought to.

Jan


----------



## timckelley

It just occurred to me. I live in the Central Time Zone. Could I go into my setup screen, and tell TiVO that I live in the Eastern Time Zone, and then 3 weeks later, tell it I'm in Central? And then my manual recordings would still work? Or would it know I'm lying based on the fact my channel lineup comes from Austin, Texas?


----------



## samo

timckelley said:


> It just occurred to me. I live in the Central Time Zone. Could I go into my setup screen, and tell TiVO that I live in the Eastern Time Zone, and then 3 weeks later, tell it I'm in Central? And them my manual recordings would still work? Or would it know I'm lying based on the fact my channel lineup comes from Austin, Texas?


There are several posts (do search on all forums, I don't remember if it was Help or CH) that say that what you want to do works just fine.


----------



## timckelley

samo said:


> There are several posts (do search on all forums, I don't remember if it was Help or CH) that say that what you want to do works just fine.


Wow. The message that popped on my TiVo, and the email TiVo sent me detailed their suggested workaround to the lack of a patch, but I think their workaround is more work than changing the timezones. I dont think I like their suggested work around.


----------



## cwerdna

tlc said:


> But people need to understand that software product development is a bit more involved. In a production environment, this would involve a source fix that doesn't depend on cron & reboot, code reviews, test plans, testing in different timezones and environments with different mixes of new and pre-existing manual recordings and season passes and lots and lots of management meetings discussing the progress  . It would be most proper to regression test the entire TiVo functionality. And if it wasn't planned for months ago, all of this needs to be done by people who are scheduled to do something else.
> 
> That said, it should have been done. They did it for the other products. They either chose not to do it or managed it poorly and blew the schedule. If we see no update before fall, then it was a choice.
> 
> If it was a choice, the only question left is whether they really believed that choice was low impact ("cosmetic" -- for S1 but not for others!) or whether that decision was designed to reduce the number of old, non-income producing, lifetime subscriptions & encourage upgrading to non-lifetime boxes.


(I've only skimmed this thread and the hacks/workaround)
I'm going to have to concur with sbourgeo and also agree w/tlc here. Some of the whiners here have probably NEVER worked in the software industry, esp. as a tester. I do and have for many years.

BTW, we really have no idea how much the codebase has changed between the current codebases and the 3.x software S1s use. There might have been big architectural changes after 3.x and it might not have been trivial to backport the fix. Besides that, you have to do the testing, as mentioned above.

I'm sure TiVo had data (from the nightly calls) on what % of Series 1 owners actually had manual recordings in the affected time zones. tlc's scenarios to me pretty well cover what could've gone on. If TiVo screwed this up, the consequences would probably be even worse and more S1 owners would be even more pissed.

As an aside, did you know that one Indiana county moved TWO hours ahead on Sunday? http://www.theindychannel.com/news/11204349/detail.html Did you know that Hawaii and Arizona don't observe DST? http://geography.about.com/cs/daylightsavings/a/dst.htm


----------



## timckelley

To be honest, I do work in the software industry, and I'm a developer who writes code that gets tested and deployed into production. Admittedly, I'm not a tester. Well of course I do test my code, but I don't do most of the regression testing that takes place.


----------



## Mars

Did I overlook a post somewhere? There seems to be a strange lack of comments from the TiVo personel that usually post in these forums.


----------



## VictorWI

Mars said:


> Did I overlook a post somewhere? There seems to be a strange lack of comments from the TiVo personel that usually post in these forums.


Why would he post in this thread anymore. The official line has been spoken, e-mailed and popped up as a message on your S1 TiVo. Not much else he is going to say on the subject I imagine.


----------



## ah30k

TiVo said recording would work fine but the display would be wrong.

If you change your timezone, your display would be fine but your RECORDING would be WRONG. 

which would you prefer?


----------



## jberman

ah30k said:


> If you change your timezone, your display would be fine but your RECORDING would be WRONG.


I'm not entirely convinced of that... as long as you leave your zip code alone, I think you might be OK. That's essentially what my script does (for all intents and purposes, my Tivo thinks it's in the Atlantic time zone), and it seems to be working fine. There may be subtleties that I'm not aware of, however.....


----------



## n548gxg

Mars said:


> Did I overlook a post somewhere? There seems to be a strange lack of comments from the TiVo personel that usually post in these forums.


Tivo does not care.


----------



## LoadStar

I'm used to the silence... it's happened before, when TiVo screws up, there's lots of complaining from forum members and a deafening silence from TiVo.


----------



## timckelley

VictorWI said:


> Why would he post in this thread anymore. The official line has been spoken, e-mailed and popped up as a message on your S1 TiVo. Not much else he is going to say on the subject I imagine.


I think another statement would be useful. The most important and fundamental question I think we all deserve an answer to is: Is this lack of a patch for S1s permanant, or do they intend to keep working on it? (i.e. are they giving up on this or not)

It seems pretty sloppy to me that this fundamental question was not addressed in their bulletin and email they sent to us. You'd think they'd know that such a vague message to us as what they left us, would leave people with questions.


----------



## BobCamp1

I'm a test engineer in the software industry. Yes, you can't release the workaround hack as it is. But it's a workaround. Tivo could fix this the CORRECT way. If the dates are hard coded, then change the dates in the code! I can't believe Tivo didn't keep the source code or a single PC that has the development platform on it. It's not like they have dozens of platforms to keep track of. And who said anything about backporting the fix? Just fix the original code!

It's all about the DESIRE to do it. Tivo has very little, since they already have our money.


----------



## dcheesi

timckelley said:


> To be honest, I do work in the software industry, and I'm a developer who writes code that gets tested and deployed into production. Admittedly, I'm not a tester. Well of course I do test my code, but I don't do most of the regression testing that takes place.


+1 but we do work closely with the test group, and I'm well aware of the long testing schedules; I even mentioned it as a potential problem. OTOH, as long as they _can_ test it, then deciding not to fix a bug because of the time/expense of testing is still ultimately a corporate decision, not a technical limitation.

And as for not having enough time to test before the due date: like everyone else in the industry, they have had plenty of time to make a fix, and just didn't bother looking into until the last minute. I really don't understand why people weren't working on this sooner? (Thankfully our products don't "do" DST to begin with, so it's not an issue for us.)


----------



## dcheesi

samo said:


> There are several posts (do search on all forums, I don't remember if it was Help or CH) that say that what you want to do works just fine.


Unless you live in the Eastern timezone; apparently there is no Altantic timezone option in the UI. I guess TiVo never supported eastern Canada or Puerto Rico?


----------



## VictorWI

BobCamp1 said:


> ... I can't believe Tivo didn't keep the source code or a single PC that has the development platform on it. It's not like they have dozens of platforms to keep track of. ...


Has TiVo publicly stated this is the reason? I see it mentioned enough but I believe it is only a theory some have put forward not a certain. Slap me if I am wrong!


----------



## vinniet

Hello ... I am trying to find out if the community has come up with a fix. I have no problem modifying my Tivo to fix this problem. I just do not want to changing my season passes 4 times a year.

I have a Sony Tivo Series 1 that is "golden" so I am not paying or have lifetime. Also the machine is not modified in anyway. I use it to record 4 shows a week plus whatever I conflicts with my other machine.

Is there something that will fix this problem and can it be done with a unmodified Tivo? Can you get me the information for the fix and I will try it and document it.

Thanks!


----------



## jberman

vinniet said:


> Is there something that will fix this problem and can it be done with a unmodified Tivo? Can you get me the information for the fix and I will try it and document it.
> 
> Thanks!


There is a workaround. Look here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4954817&&#post4954817

This can only be applied from a bash prompt, for now. Maybe someone more qualified than me will make a TivoWeb module or something. 

__________________
Daylight Savings Time workaround for S1 SA TiVos - Click here


----------



## MFMurphy00

jberman said:


> Has anyone else successfully patched their Tivo using the tcl scripts, besides me?


Can you point me to a compatible cron package to ftp onto the Tivo.
My Sony S1 was hacked long ago but crontab,.... is not present.
Thanks.


----------



## jberman

MFMurphy00 said:


> Can you point me to a compatible cron package to ftp onto the Tivo.


This should work on Series 1:

ftp://ftp.alt.org/pub/tivo/dtype/old/cron-3.0pl1_TiVo-1.tar.gz

Make sure you follow the directions... the directory structure is a bit tricky... but it works flawlessly once it's set up correctly.


----------



## jberman

webcrush said:


> thats what I started doing and found that there was no /State/LocationConfig listed in the MFS browser. I started going through them all with weak hopes that it might be a different name/path but no luck so far.
> 
> My software version was: 2.5.2-01-1-001


Yup, that's the problem. I have no idea what they did in 2.5.2, and I don't have any way of finding out. I think your best bet would be to find someone with a phone line and download the official DST patch that you're lucky enough to be able to receive.

I also found this on another thread, talking about D-TiVos. It may help you. Not much help for those of us with S1 SA on the East Coast, though:



> "there is a timezone setting in the satellite menu. I told it that my Tivo was in the next time zone, disabled DTS and my times are current again."


----------



## webcrush

jberman said:


> Yup, that's the problem. I have no idea what they did in 2.5.2, and I don't have any way of finding out. I think your best bet would be to find someone with a phone line and download the official DST patch that you're lucky enough to be able to receive.
> 
> I also found this on another thread, talking about D-TiVos. It may help you. Not much help for those of us with S1 SA on the East Coast, though:


I won't lie, my Tivo is hacked to all high heaven, so I'm not all that trusting of pluggin it into a phone line and having who knows what updates screw up my configs


----------



## vinniet

jberman said:


> There is a workaround. Look here:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4954817&&#post4954817
> 
> This can only be applied from a bash prompt, for now. Maybe someone more qualified than me will make a TivoWeb module or something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My tivo is unmodified and I do not have a network card. So I get I am SOL.
> 
> Let me know if anyone has a way to do this in my situation.
Click to expand...


----------



## jberman

For those who are keeping track - I just updated the scripts for the workaround to include some rudimentary error checking. Now, if someone tries to use one of the scripts on a non-S1 SA TiVo, it should throw a clean-looking error message.

The scripts are here (manual operation) and here (suitable for scheduling with cron).


----------



## bicker

I think we've see many cases where companies (not just TiVo) come to a point where there is absolutely no benefit, and lots of disadvantages, to the company to participate any further in a public discussion about an issue. I think this discussion has reached that point.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bicker said:


> I think we've see many cases where companies (not just TiVo) come to a point where there is absolutely no benefit, and lots of disadvantages, to the company to .


so has the S1 it seems as well


----------



## jberman

Oops - turns out there was a problem with the crontab file for the time change in October. Instead of running DSTFallBack.tcl on the last Sunday in October, you should run DSTSpringAhead.tcl. That will cause the script to undo any erroneous timezone change caused by tivoapp on that date. I've also renamed the scripts so the names are less misleading, and appended "cron" to distinguish these scripts from the versions that are meant as "stand-alone" (unscheduled) patches. The new recommended names are DST_on_cron.tcl (was DSTSpringAhead.tcl) and DST_off_cron.tcl (was DSTFallBack.tcl). In other words, your new crontab file should look like this:



Code:


0 7 8-14 3 * /var/hack/bin/DST_on_cron.tcl
1 6 1-7 4 * /var/hack/bin/DST_on_cron.tcl
0 6 25-31 10 * /var/hack/bin/DST_on_cron.tcl                                   
1 7 1-7 11 * /var/hack/bin/DST_off_cron.tcl

Sorry for the inconvenience.


----------



## bicker

Gosh -- just imagine if TiVo had made that mistake!


----------



## jberman

Yeah. Pretty embarassed that I didn't catch that one earlier.


----------



## jberman

I just did a little more digging, and found some information that might or might not be helpful. Remember the Node Navigator, that nasty backdoor that's sometimes useful, but could REALLY mess up your TiVo if you're not careful? Well, as it turns out the DirecTV Series 2 boxes have three rather interesting-sounding nodes:

83 Time Zone
84 Daylight Savings Time
97 Zip Code

_Theoretically_, if you could find the right node for Series 1 boxes, you could enter the Time Zone node (if it even exists in Series 1!) and try setting your time zone ahead by one; that would allow you to change the time without hacking your TiVo or rerunning Guided Setup. Similarly, one could try disabling DST, or even changing one's zip code to a location in the correct timezone (although that one has shown to be especially hazardous, and might break your TiVo). Unfortunately the node numbers have been shown not to necessarily line up between TiVo's different versions (the UK series 1's are different from those in the US, for example), so there's a good chance that node 83, 84 or 97 on a series 1 will take you somewhere unexpected... and possibly dangerous. Also unfortunately, I was unable to find a comprehensive list of nodes for the S1, and I'm unwilling to mess around in the Node Navigator without one. 

In any case, this information might be able to help the owners of hacked Series 2 DTiVo boxes who are reluctant to download the software patch. However, it could also fry your TiVo!

I'm too chicken to try this - even _entering_ any of the nodes from the Node Navigator can be *really* dangerous - but if you want to read up on it, check out this page to learn all about enabling backdoors, and look in section 3 for using the Node Navigator. (And make sure you heed all the warnings!)


----------



## vinniet

bicker said:


> I think we've see many cases where companies (not just TiVo) come to a point where there is absolutely no benefit, and lots of disadvantages, to the company to participate any further in a public discussion about an issue. I think this discussion has reached that point.


No I believe if people stick to the technical aspect to fixing this problem, and stop debating who is at fault. I do not care if Tivo comes up with a fix tomorrow, next month, or never. I want to fix this problem with or without them.


----------



## TiVoPony

Update Posted Here.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## TiVoPony

...and jberman, would you drop me a private message? 

Thanks!
Pony


----------



## timckelley

jberman is famous now.


----------



## Opusnbill7

Jberman, YOU THE MAN!!!

And, thankfully, my faith in Tivo has been restored. 

50 lashes with a wet noodle for the engineers, though...


----------



## wdave

jberman is getting a job offer.


----------



## timckelley

We TiVoites here, who are large in number, probably owe a debt to jberman.

Speech! Speech! Speech!


----------



## JacksTiVo

Bravo to jberman.

He (or she) should be given the equivalent of the suggestion awards that TiVo employees earn for innovations or if that is not possible, then perhaps a new S3 with lifetime.

In any event, it is really nice to see how constructive postings by members results in good things happening.


----------



## Rottluver

Congrts to all you non-DTV S1 owners.......I am VERY happy for you all. This has restored some of my faith in Tivo as well, although I am totally bummed that they are no longer in a "partnership" or whatever with DTV.........the Tivo format is the best I have ever seen or used, that includes ReplayTV, Dish networks DVR and several other non-Tivo DVRs............

Way to go Tivo. :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Opusnbill7 said:


> Jberman, YOU THE MAN!!!
> 
> And, thankfully, my faith in Tivo has been restored.
> 
> 50 lashes with a wet noodle for the engineers, though...


nice work jberman. Guess the TiVo cafeteria is serving humble pie this week.

Also I wonder if TiVo went with the tcl scripts fix or the more dangerous Node fix


----------



## logic88

Well, I've been meaning to run the jberman's script on my SA S1 but haven't gotten around to it yet but now that there's the official seal of approval, I'll go ahead and do so later tonight.

Thanks jberman!


----------



## Opusnbill7

logic88 said:


> Well, I've been meaning to run the jberman's script on my SA S1 but haven't gotten around to it yet but now that there's the official seal of approval, I'll go ahead and do so later tonight.
> 
> Thanks jberman!


Well....according to TivoPony they're modifying it slightly but it's pretty close. If I were you, I'd just wait and sign up for the "official" patch in a few days, but hey whatever floats your boat...


----------



## Ruth

Go jberman go! 

I want to know what they give him. I hope it's something good.

Also props to TiVo for monitoring the forum, taking advantage of what they learned here, and stepping up to the plate and admitting they were wrong.


----------



## Billy66

uh yeah, thanks TiVo for letting your customers do the work and fill the gap of your incompetence! :up:

Really, thanks to jberman is probably sufficient here.


----------



## Rowsdower

For those of you who claimed that the lack of an update was due to a business decision (not a technical issue) and that this discussion would yield nothing positive from TiVo (and might even persuade the company to discontinue Series1 support altogether), dinner is served!


----------



## btwyx

Rowsdower said:


> For those of you who claimed that the lack of an update was due to a business decision (not a technical issue) and that this discussion would yield nothing positive from TiVo (and might even persuade the company to discontinue Series1 support altogether), dinner is served!


Who's to say it wasn't a business descision, and after the storm they blame the engineers as a way out.


----------



## Rowsdower

btwyx said:


> Who's to say it wasn't a business descision, and after the storm they blame the engineers as a way out.


That's where the "and that this discussion would yield nothing positive from TiVo..." portion comes in. Irrespective of the company's original intentions (which are impossible to prove), this thread has had a direct, constructive influence (just as some of us hoped that it would).


----------



## Ruth

Billy66 said:


> uh yeah, thanks TiVo for letting your customers do the work and fill the gap of your incompetence! :up:
> 
> Really, thanks to jberman is probably sufficient here.


 OK, I can see the other side of the coin. Still, you don't see a lot of companies admitting in print that their engineers were wrong.

But at least we can all agree on jberman's fabulousness.


----------



## TiVoPony

btwyx said:


> Who's to say it wasn't a business descision, and after the storm they blame the engineers as a way out.


I am. It didn't happen that way.

There's no need for either side of this thread to perpetuate the debate, or to look for hidden motivations and alternate realities.

Sorry guys, it's just not that convoluted.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## timckelley

Buth Ruth's point about jberman's fabulousness still stands, though.


----------



## Rowsdower

TiVoPony said:


> I am. It didn't happen that way.
> 
> There's no need for either side of this thread to perpetuate the debate, or to look for hidden motivations and alternate realities.
> 
> Sorry guys, it's just not that convoluted.


Some of us never lost confidence in that, Pony. While others thought that they were defending TiVo, Inc. by making excuses on its behalf and telling people to keep quiet, the real TiVo enthusiasts continued to demand the top-notch treatment that we've come to expect (and knew that you always intended to provide). Thank you for rewarding our trust. :up:


----------



## biker

Thanks jberman!


----------



## MScottC

Quite frankly I'm glad all the moaners and cry babies who thought TiVo had intentionally screwed them are now in the wonderful position of eating crow. I for one believe they made every reasonable effort up to the point of being able to do a clean patch release; that they missed that deadline; that they continued to work on it; and when they saw an idea on this forum, took the ball and ran with it, and even if the solution came a bit late, it shows they never gave up. Call me naive, but short of ONE Hardrive starting to go bad, I've had NO problems with my S1 TiVo purchased in 1999 and my new series 3.

As far as the expectation of being given new features on a 7 year old box, sorry, just don't expect it. I wasn't promised that sort of feature on the series 1, there is no reason for me to be pissed I don't have it, just as I wasn't pissed about not having MRV or TTG on that box.


----------



## n548gxg

MScottC said:


> Quite frankly I'm glad all the moaners and cry babies who thought TiVo had intentionally screwed them are now in the wonderful position of eating crow.


If it wasnt for all of us "moaners and cry babies", Tivo would have do nothing.

Thank You Tivo for doing the right thing.


----------



## Opusnbill7

MScottC said:


> Quite frankly I'm glad all the moaners and cry babies who thought TiVo had intentionally screwed them are now in the wonderful position of eating crow. I for one believe they made every reasonable effort up to the point of being able to do a clean patch release; that they missed that deadline; that they continued to work on it; and when they saw an idea on this forum, took the ball and ran with it, and even if the solution came a bit late, it shows they never gave up. Call me naive, but short of ONE Hardrive starting to go bad, I've had NO problems with my S1 TiVo purchased in 1999 and my new series 3.
> 
> As far as the expectation of being given new features on a 7 year old box, sorry, just don't expect it. I wasn't promised that sort of feature on the series 1, there is no reason for me to be pissed I don't have it, just as I wasn't pissed about not having MRV or TTG on that box.


Umm....I wouldn't call having the correct time a "feature". However, that said, I could see why they might have chosen NOT to provide a fix (as many companies have on older products). The problem most of us had was that they had previously said they would, and the way it was handled when they didn't provide one just left a few too many things "hanging" for some of us.

I am glad that Tivo is still supporting us, and most of us will be glad to support them in the future now that we know we're still "valued".


----------



## jmayes

I must say this thread has been great reading and mucho kujos to jberman and trainboy for their insight on how things are done with dst in *nix and tivoland. In this busy world I did not even realize DST was happening until it was too late and had no idea Tivo had not updated the S1-SA's.

I like a few others here have several 2.52 tivos that have been hacked to the hilt and do not want to upgrade to 3.0. I am hoping the information in this thread could be carried over and some 2.52 patches can be introduced as well. Belive it or not there are even some 1.21's and 1.3's out there still ticking away as manual record units so hacking will be the only way to fix them without major redos.

Thankx all for the help!
Jmayes


----------



## jberman

Wow. I honestly had no idea that my little patch would get so much attention. I'm so glad (and flattered) that TiVo has decided to release an update based on it, when they could have easily turned their backs. Kudos to you, TiVo!

Also, sbourgeo and trainboy both deserve credit for mapping out the theory. I still feel like my only role was putting all the pieces together. 

Happy to have helped,
Jesse (jberman)


----------



## murgatroyd

timckelley said:


> This knowledge/ability of the series 1 hackers is impressive. To bad they don't work for TiVo.


You're assuming they would have the time to work on this problem if they were working there. 

When you work for yourself, you can choose which problem to work on. That's rarely the case when you work for someone else.

Edited to add: :up: :up: :up: to jberman!

Jan


----------



## murgatroyd

Rowsdower said:


> That's where the "and that this discussion would yield nothing positive from TiVo..." portion comes in. Irrespective of the company's original intentions (which are impossible to prove), this thread has had a direct, constructive influence (just as some of us hoped that it would).


The people who actually worked the technical problem deserve credit for their constructive influence.

The rest of us blowhards deserve diddly squat.

Nothing constructive came from the FIX MY TIVO FIX IT DADDY FIX IT OR I'LL HOLD MY BREATH UNTIL I TURN BLUE posts.

You are kidding yourself if you think so.

Jan


----------



## Billy66

murgatroyd said:


> You're assuming they would have the time to work on this problem if they were working there.
> 
> When you work for yourself, you can choose which problem to work on. That's rarely the case when you work for someone else.
> 
> Edited to add: :up: :up: :up: to jberman!
> 
> Jan


If their managers don't allocate time for essential items like the correct time, then there's the problem.

Actually, you'd think there would be an engineering manager, director, or VP who should think about resigning as the "street" produced a fix that his/her area of responsibility erroneously claimed was impossible.

TiVo saves face by swallowing their pride here, but that egg on their face comes from someone in a high level of responsibility who couldn't get the job done.

PS Jberman did it on his personal time. Guess he's just more committed.


----------



## MScottC

murgatroyd said:


> The people who actually worked the technical problem deserve credit for their constructive influence.
> 
> The rest of us blowhards deserve diddly squat.
> 
> Nothing constructive came from the FIX MY TIVO FIX IT DADDY FIX IT OR I'LL HOLD MY BREATH UNTIL I TURN BLUE posts.
> 
> You are kidding yourself if you think so.
> 
> Jan


Exactly my point murgatroyd.... thank you.


----------



## IHDB

MScottC said:


> Quite frankly I'm glad all the moaners and cry babies who thought TiVo had intentionally screwed them are now in the wonderful position of eating crow. I for one believe they made every reasonable effort up to the point of being able to do a clean patch release; that they missed that deadline; that they continued to work on it; and when they saw an idea on this forum, took the ball and ran with it, and even if the solution came a bit late, it shows they never gave up. Call me naive, but short of ONE Hardrive starting to go bad, I've had NO problems with my S1 TiVo purchased in 1999 and my new series 3.
> 
> As far as the expectation of being given new features on a 7 year old box, sorry, just don't expect it. I wasn't promised that sort of feature on the series 1, there is no reason for me to be pissed I don't have it, just as I wasn't pissed about not having MRV or TTG on that box.


Freaking exactly! I'm glad that dicussion prompted some really smart people to come up with a solution, and I'm glad all those folks saying "Tivo hates us S1 users, I'll never by Tivo again" were proven dead wrong, I'm most happy about the fact that I'll be getting the update to fix this problem!!!

:up: :up: :up: to Jberman AND Tivo for a job well done.


----------



## bicker

murgatroyd said:


> Nothing constructive came from the FIX MY TIVO FIX IT DADDY FIX IT OR I'LL HOLD MY BREATH UNTIL I TURN BLUE posts. You are kidding yourself if you think so.


Well put!


----------



## n548gxg

murgatroyd said:


> Nothing constructive came from the FIX MY TIVO FIX IT DADDY FIX IT OR I'LL HOLD MY BREATH UNTIL I TURN BLUE posts.
> 
> You are kidding yourself if you think so.


Tivo totally wrote us off. Did not even attempt a fix and was embarrassed into fixing the problem.

I also believe that 90% of the people who argued against us are Tivo employees.


----------



## Skyhawk85u

The complaints opened up TiVo's eyes to a segment of their customers they had been ignoring. Without the complaints they probably wouldn't have done anything, but we'll never know. And I have no idea what is wrong with deciding not to do business with a company I felt was not treating its customers right. I never said I'd hold my breath - I just said that I would choose not to do business with TiVo in the future if that's how they treat their customers. They then changed how they treat their customers, so I may change my mind again about dealing with them. If they don't care whether I deal with them or recommend them, so be it. Thanks to jberman for fixing the problem, and TiVo for stepping up finally.


----------



## MScottC

n548gxg said:


> Tivo totally wrote us off. Did not even attempt a fix and was embarrassed into fixing the problem.
> 
> I also believe that 90% of the people who argued against us are Tivo employees.


And you know this HOW??? Were you in their offices, their engineering labs?


----------



## parzec

murgatroyd said:


> The people who actually worked the technical problem deserve credit for their constructive influence.
> 
> The rest of us blowhards deserve diddly squat.
> 
> Nothing constructive came from the FIX MY TIVO FIX IT DADDY FIX IT OR I'LL HOLD MY BREATH UNTIL I TURN BLUE posts.
> 
> You are kidding yourself if you think so.
> 
> Jan


All caps are obnoxious -- Tivo properly responded to valid customer complaints. Period. Let it go.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

n548gxg said:


> Tivo totally wrote us off. Did not even attempt a fix and was embarrassed into fixing the problem.
> 
> I also believe that 90% of the people who argued against us are Tivo employees.


well you are totally wrong and the irony is that it is you speaking as if you have employee insider knowledge that TiVo did nothing until a thread was started here.

And they had not been ignoring S1 customers, TiVoStephen was posting in here long before the DST change date. S1 was not ignored, I think we can infer now that TiVo probably does not have engineers left who know the S1 code well anymore. So the hacker community which does know the code well found the fix that would work. Kudos to the hackers for being so good at what they do :up: and good for TiVo to have enough desire to fix the problem for S1 owners to see a fix and use it. Also good for TiVo to be respectful enough of the hacker community to publicly note where they got the fix from


----------



## slango

I was hesitant to add my comments about this issue. The debate has been quite heated. I don't consider anyone to be right or wrong, just that they have a different perspective on the topic.

That said, I believe that TiVo originally underestimated both the value that the S1 box still holds for many of us and the fervor that we as a group can generate when we hold strong opinions about the matter. I can't for one second buy into the belief that the TiVo engineers, with their intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the device, could not come up with a solution to the DST problem. I think they took a cursory look at the situation and decided that it wasn't worth the effort to expend time and resources towards a fix. Instead, it took an end user, armed with only whatever the TiVo community has been able to glean about the software over the past several years, along with perserverence and a strong analytical sense, to work out the (in retrospect) fairly simple solution to the problem. TiVo, realizing that they had been found out, made the business decision to accede to the user community and implement the patch, rather than risk looking inept and non-supportive. It's not a matter of what's right or wrong, it's a matter of money and perception.

Thanks for reading.


----------



## MScottC

ZeoTiVo said:


> well you are totally wrong and the irony is that it is you speaking as if you have employee insider knowledge that TiVo did nothing until a thread was started here.
> 
> And they had not been ignoring S1 customers, TiVoStephen was posting in here long before the DST change date. S1 was not ignored, I think we can infer now that TiVo probably does not have engineers left who know the S1 code well anymore. So the hacker community which does know the code well found the fix that would work. Kudos to the hackers for being so good at what they do :up: and good for TiVo to have enough desire to fix the problem for S1 owners to see a fix and use it. Also good for TiVo to be respectful enough of the hacker community to publicly note where they got the fix from


And Kudos to TiVo, especially in the early days, for allowing and actually encouraging hackers, allowing them to figure out how to add Hard Drive Capacity, and all sorts of other neat things. From what I see, TiVo is a company that wants customer involvement. From my first involvement with TiVo in 1999 I remember all sorts of neat stuff going on (with the exception of copying show files) with TiVo not putting the kebash on any of it.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

slango said:


> I can't for one second buy into the belief that the TiVo engineers, with their intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the device, could not come up with a solution to the DST problem. I think they took a cursory look at the situation and decided that it wasn't worth the effort to expend time and resources towards a fix. Instead, it took an end user, armed with only whatever the TiVo community has been able to glean about the software over the past several years,


the error in your analysis is assuming TiVo still has the engineers who did the S1 code or had looked at it in years. For TiVo the S1 code is very old and defintely not on any new project lists. For the Hacker community it was last nights endeavor to add some new idea for a modded feature. The whatever the hackers have been able to glean over the past several years is a considerable amount of knowledge on the S1. Kudos to the hackers for having the ability to offer a fix that TiVo can feel comfortable releasing as an enterprise update.

This has not changed my opinion of TiVo but has changed my opinion of the hacker community to the better.


----------



## slango

ZeoTiVo said:


> the error in your analysis is assuming TiVo still has the engineers who did the S1 code or had looked at it in years.


Point taken, but I would argue that it is incumbent upon TiVo to maintain a working knowledge regarding whatever operating systems are still in use by paying customers, either lifetime or month-to-month. What if some long dormant bug was to assert itself and render the box unusable? How could TiVo justify taking money for a device which no longer worked?

If, however, the Series 1 software was entirely legacy, and strictly used by non-revenue generating customers, it would be entirely realistic to presume that corporate knowledge of the software no longer existed or was too outdated to be reliable.


----------



## timckelley

Oh, I agree the credit for making posts to this thread that made most difference is those from the hackers, not complainers. At the same time, I support the right and the need for complainers to complain. They were rightly frustrated at what was going on. Most complainers aren't hackers, so they can't fix the problem. All they can do is vent their frustration, and venting is one of the reasons we have these boards here.

Also, we'll never know if there had not been complaining, whether TiVo would have seen the need to use jberman's patch or not. If they wouldn't have, then the complainers did have a useful role here. But that's just speculation and irrelevant anyway. My main point is that there's nothing wrong with people posting their complaints here.


----------



## MScottC

timckelley said:


> Also, we'll never know if there had not been complaining, whether TiVo would have seen the need to use jberman's patch or not. If they wouldn't have, then the complainers did have a useful role here. But that's just speculation and irrelevant anyway. My main point is that there's nothing wrong with people posting their complaints here.


I don't disagree with the right to complain. I just look at a few of the people who automatically assume the worst then scream and cry that TiVo, or any other entity is only out there to screw them. Those are the people I have NO use for.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

slango said:


> Point taken, but I would argue that it is incumbent upon TiVo to maintain a working knowledge regarding whatever operating systems are still in use by paying customers, either lifetime or month-to-month. .


and counter point taken but it is hard/expensive to keep that working knowledge when no one is working on it


----------



## timckelley

ZeoTiVo said:


> and counter point taken but it is hard/expensive to keep that working knowledge when no one is working on it


True, I know my computer knowledge starts to dissappear if I'm not using it. I wonder how the hackers have been able to hold on to this old, outdated knowledge? I'm guessing they must be actively using it.


----------



## CrispyCritter

timckelley said:


> True, I know my computer knowledge starts to dissappear if I'm not using it. I wonder how the hackers have been able to hold on to this old, outdated knowledge? I'm guessing they must be actively using it.


That's a bit unfair. This is a hack. It involves one part of the system actively lying to another part of the system. That's always a bad idea, and the hack will leave rough edges around. There's no question in my mind that those rough edges mean this approach wouldn't be considered for a current system (current systems also have more constraints caused by them being networked). This is not a solution to the problem; but it's better than doing nothing. From TiVo's posts, they had hopes of a real solution until very late in the game. Evidently something went wrong with their plans.

Don't get me wrong: this is a very nice hack that mostly solves the major functional problem - the manual recordings. If I had manual recordings on my S1, I would have been all over jberman's posts from when he first started. But it remains a hack and not a solution.


----------



## sfhub

CrispyCritter said:


> That's a bit unfair. This is a hack. It involves one part of the system actively lying to another part of the system. That's always a bad idea, and the hack will leave rough edges around. *There's no question in my mind that those rough edges mean this approach wouldn't be considered for a current system (current systems also have more constraints caused by them being networked).* This is not a solution to the problem; but it's better than doing nothing. From TiVo's posts, they had hopes of a real solution until very late in the game. Evidently something went wrong with their plans.


Rough edges... you mean like production S2 units having the wrong time displayed between Mar 11, 2am GMT+0 until Mar 11 2am local time?

This is different behavior than the S3s where the time change happens at the appropriate 2am local time. I believe TiVo said the S2s would be getting the S3s "real" fix in some future update.


----------



## sfhub

MScottC said:


> And you know this HOW??? Were you in their offices, their engineering labs?


Probably same reason this statement can be made (it's just the opposite end of the spectrum):


MScottC said:


> I for one believe they made every reasonable effort up to the point of being able to do a clean patch release; that they missed that deadline; that they continued to work on it;


----------



## BobCamp1

timckelley said:


> Oh, I agree the credit for making posts to this thread that made most difference is those from the hackers, not complainers. At the same time, I support the right and the need for complainers to complain. They were rightly frustrated at what was going on. Most complainers aren't hackers, so they can't fix the problem. All they can do is vent their frustration, and venting is one of the reasons we have these boards here.


As a former complainer, I agree with this. You do NOT want me to write code. Other software engineers can attest to that. All I can do is test and complain about what doesn't work.

Thanks jberman for fixing the problem, and to Tivo for polishing, supporting, and distributing the fix. The S1s have more value than you think. One of my friends was over eyeing my S1 Tivo, and the very first thing he noticed was that the clock and guide were an hour off. I told him I had an older model, and that the newer models have that problem fixed (sort of). But he wasn't convinced into buying an S2DT -- after all, he said, how long would it be before they dropped support for _it_? I told him the official company response (they tried but couldn't), and he didn't buy it, either. (he was arguing incompetence instead of neglect, which turned out to be correct).

I'll sign up for the patch tonight. He'll be over next week, and by then the S1 will be behaving again. Maybe he'll change his mind, but I think the damage was done. He's now seriously looking into TWC's DVR.


----------



## Rowsdower

murgatroyd said:


> The people who actually worked the technical problem deserve credit for their constructive influence.
> 
> The rest of us blowhards deserve diddly squat.
> 
> Nothing constructive came from the FIX MY TIVO FIX IT DADDY FIX IT OR I'LL HOLD MY BREATH UNTIL I TURN BLUE posts.
> 
> You are kidding yourself if you think so.


You're kidding yourself if you believe that the TiVo employees would have seen a need to provide a fix if the only responses they'd received had been of the "It's no big deal! My TiVo's working just fine!" variety.

I knew from a prior experience that TiVo representatives monitor these boards and attempt to address complaints. If no one posts them, how are they supposed to know that customers are upset?

I don't know why you characterize all of the complaints in the above manner. Some of us expressed our concerns calmly and rationally (without even telling our opponents to "shut up").



MScottC said:


> I don't disagree with the right to complain. I just look at a few of the people who automatically assume the worst then scream and cry that TiVo, or any other entity is only out there to screw them.


Indeed, some of the complainers fit this description (and I disagree with their attitude).

It should be noted, however, that other complainers cited our confidence in TiVo, Inc. as the reason why we expected more. Meanwhile, some posters attempted to defend the company by pointing out that it had technically met its legal requirements and claiming that it had decided not to waste money supporting customers who had outlived their usefulness. IMHO, *that* was the biggest insult to TiVo.


----------



## btwyx

Rowsdower said:


> It should be noted, however, that other complainers cited our confidence in TiVo, Inc. as the reason why we expected more. Meanwhile, some posters attempted to defend the company by pointing out that it had technically met its legal requirements and shouldn't be expected to waste money supporting customers who had outlived their usefulness. IMHO, *that* was the biggest insult to TiVo.


 :up: +1.


----------



## sammae

My serries-1 sony just updated to the new time! sammae :up:


----------



## jberman

Great news!  Do you know if it wiped out /var in the process?


----------



## jberman

TiVoPony has posted here that the effects of TiVo's patch are *cumulative* to mine (which essentially confirms that they are using deltas, rather than brute-force setting of the GMT offset), so if you've already run my patch, you should undo it before getting the official fix. Here's how:

Remove the cron entries, then run DSTFallBack.tcl (which I've since renamed DST_off.tcl; make sure you've edited it to match your own timezone), then *REBOOT* before you get the update!

I believe this process won't be necessary if you wait until after April 1 to download the official patch... just make sure you remove the crontab entries.

_Edit:_ Actually, the more I think about it, the less I'm sure what will happen if you wait until after April 1. You might need to roll back the changes made by my patch after all. It depends on the inner workings of TiVo's version, which I'm not privy to. In any case, since the effect is cumulative, if necessary you should be able to remove my patch after April 1 without a problem.


----------



## murgatroyd

Rowsdower said:


> You're kidding yourself if you believe that the TiVo employees would have seen a need to provide a fix if the only responses they'd received had been of the "It's no big deal! My TiVo's working just fine!" variety.


On the contrary, I take their word when they tell me that they still own S1s themselves. They have incentive to fix the S1 because they are running the S1 themselves.

Any TiVo employee who still has a S1 themselves is "one of us" and doesn't need to have people whine about what and how things are broken. They know because they can see for themselves what the effects are.

My experience with not-quite-working computer systems is that the time needed to solve the problem increases, not lessens, with the number of "is it fixed yet?" queries. At some point you have adequately communicated your dismay to the programmers and support people, and *****ing further only delays progress on a fix. If you don't pipe down and let them get on with the business of fixing what's broken, they spend more time listening to you *****ing than they do actually working on it.

Jan


----------



## timckelley

murgatroyd said:


> On the contrary, I take their word when they tell me that they still own S1s themselves. They have incentive to fix the S1 because they are running the S1 themselves.


But maybe those employees don't have manual recordings. Also, hopefully the TiVo employees reading this thread, are not the same ones doing the programming. If we get repetitive here, then the TiVo employees reading this need not relay the redundant messages to the programmers, needlessly bogging them down.


----------



## jimnoblett

slango said:


> I was hesitant to add my comments about this issue. The debate has been quite heated. I don't consider anyone to be right or wrong, just that they have a different perspective on the topic.
> 
> That said, I believe that TiVo originally underestimated both the value that the S1 box still holds for many of us and the fervor that we as a group can generate when we hold strong opinions about the matter. I can't for one second buy into the belief that the TiVo engineers, with their intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the device, could not come up with a solution to the DST problem. I think they took a cursory look at the situation and decided that it wasn't worth the effort to expend time and resources towards a fix. Instead, it took an end user, armed with only whatever the TiVo community has been able to glean about the software over the past several years, along with perserverence and a strong analytical sense, to work out the (in retrospect) fairly simple solution to the problem. TiVo, realizing that they had been found out, made the business decision to accede to the user community and implement the patch, rather than risk looking inept and non-supportive. It's not a matter of what's right or wrong, it's a matter of money and perception.
> 
> Thanks for reading.


+1


----------



## Rowsdower

murgatroyd said:


> On the contrary, I take their word when they tell me that they still own S1s themselves. They have incentive to fix the S1 because they are running the S1 themselves.


1. As timckelley noted, we don't know the extent to which they use the manual recording function. (It's unlikely that any of them are running these boxes unsubscribed.) You personally downplayed people's concerns by explaining that a specific feature was unimportant because "that is not the way we do things in the TiVolution." What leads you to believe that TiVo's employees are less TiVolutionary than you are?

2. I'm certain that the TiVo employees' commitment to their customers outweighs any selfish incentive.



> _My experience with not-quite-working computer systems is that the time needed to solve the problem increases, not lessens, with the number of "is it fixed yet?" queries._


1. I didn't see any "is it fixed yet?" queries. I saw people expressing their desire to receive the update that they were promised, while others proclaimed that they were unreasonable to expect support and told them to "shut up."

2. I haven't seen you criticize the posters who consumed TiVo's valuable time by telling them that everything was fine and there was no need to provide a fix.

3. We've been communicating our concerns to TiVo's public representatives, _not_ to the engineers responsible for the code. Are you seriously suggesting that they stopped working on a fix to read this discussion?


----------



## hmblank

wolflord11 said:


> If I was a Series 1 Owner and paying Monthly, I would be more than a little Pi**ed at the lack of support!
> 
> If Tivo cannot support Series 1 Owners, either they need to stop charging them for service, or perhaps offer a FREE upgrade to a later unit.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


I am a Series 1 owner with lifetime service and I am more than a little Pi**ed.

You would think that the change in DST sneaked up in the middle of the night and no one had time to prepare.

I recognize the logistical distribution problem, but it is not like the service is free. We are paying for it.


----------



## Tivo_Terry

ah30k said:


> Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.


My Series 1 with 120 GB drive and networking is grandfathered at the old $12.95/month rate. I keep it instead of upgrading, to avoid the minimum contract commitment and higher rates on a new machine.

This DST issue doesn't seem like a big deal to me. All I'm paying for is access to the guide data. I can change my manual recurring recordings a couple times a year. No big deal. The DST problem only lasts for a few weeks. As long as Tivo reminds me about it in time, its not that much of an issue.


----------



## catcard

Tivo_Terry said:


> My Series 1 with 120 GB drive and networking is grandfathered at the old $12.95/month rate. I keep it instead of upgrading, to avoid the minimum contract commitment and higher rates on a new machine.
> 
> This DST issue doesn't seem like a big deal to me. All I'm paying for is access to the guide data. I can change my manual recurring recordings a couple times a year. No big deal. The DST problem only lasts for a few weeks. As long as Tivo reminds me about it in time, its not that much of an issue.


 :up: That is my opinion as well.


----------



## TiVoJerry

Tivo_Terry said:


> My Series 1 with 120 GB drive and networking is grandfathered at the old $12.95/month rate. I keep it instead of upgrading, to avoid the minimum contract commitment and higher rates on a new machine.
> 
> This DST issue doesn't seem like a big deal to me. All I'm paying for is access to the guide data. I can change my manual recurring recordings a couple times a year. No big deal. The DST problem only lasts for a few weeks. As long as Tivo reminds me about it in time, its not that much of an issue.


Keep in mind that you now have the option to sign up for the fix at www.tivo.com/priorityDST. This will correct the clock and manual recordings between the time you receive the update and 4/1. Everything will continue recording normally after 4/1.

Our current plan is that the fix will be included automatically in the future. As such, there would be no need to message customers and cause confusion, panic, and rioting.  *For those of you who implemented a change on your own, this would mean you will want to make sure you revert it before November 4th.*


----------



## imadork

I had given this issue up for dead after getting my 2 cents in (and reseting all of my manual season passes  ), and then my TiVo tells me today that a fix is available! Excellent! A big :up: to jberman for figuring it out and TiVo for actually using it and rolling it out!

Not only does this renew some of my faith in TiVo, but it makes me realize that TiVo really was telling the truth when they said that they didn't think a fix was possible, and thus realized the value of jberman's work. It will make me more likely to believe TiVo in the future. This is a good thing, as I assume that most people who are trying to sell me something are always lying.

Thank you to everyone!


----------



## timckelley

A good rule of thumb is that when a salesman talks to you, he's lying.


----------



## TiVoJerry

I'd like to state for the record that I'm in support.  :up: I have nothing to do with sales!!


----------



## sfhub

murgatroyd said:


> At some point you have adequately communicated your dismay to the programmers and support people, and *****ing further only delays progress on a fix. If you don't pipe down and let them get on with the business of fixing what's broken, they spend more time listening to you *****ing than they do actually working on it.


At some point people stopped *****ing at TiVo and are only *****ing at your responses to their responses.

Venting works a lot better when people who are harmed can vent without being heckled. They vent and then they move on. If they are heckled, they will escalate.


----------



## bicker

n548gxg said:


> I also believe that 90% of the people who argued against us are Tivo employees.


Based on WHAT?


----------



## bicker

timckelley said:


> Oh, I agree the credit for making posts to this thread that made most difference is those from the hackers, not complainers.


Absolutely. Anyone who thinks that the complaints had any impact on TiVo is deluding themselves. TiVo is offering a fix because a fix was found.



timckelley said:


> My main point is that there's nothing wrong with people posting their complaints here.


Indeed, nor anything wrong with people posting rebuttals to those complaints here.


----------



## GoHokies!

bicker said:


> Based on WHAT?


That's a fantastic question. It must be nice to live in a world where you have made up "facts" like this.


bicker said:


> Absolutely. Anyone who thinks that the complaints had any impact on TiVo is deluding themselves. TiVo is offering a fix because a fix was found.


Exactly - it's great that a fix came through for you guys. I'm not surprised that it had to come from outside Tivo, I can't imagine that there are that many people still around there that have the vast experience with the S1 that some of the more talented hackers here (like jberman). I'm glad my faith in Tivo wasn't misplaced, as they've always been open to people trying to get more out of their boxes (except swapping videos), and willing to take a fix like this "from the wild" and incorporate it into an official patch. Sadly, there aren't that many companies these days that do that.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Tivo_Terry said:


> My Series 1 with 120 GB drive and networking is grandfathered at the old $12.95/month rate. I keep it instead of upgrading, to avoid the minimum contract commitment and higher rates on a new machine.


I bought a DT for 155.40 for one year and will transfer my monthly 6.95 service from a Toshivo DVR TiVo to that DT when it runs out. My ToshiVo will keep working on TiVo Basic mode instead 

The point is you can get a new TiVo and transfer the monthjly service directly over to it right on the web site. You just have to understand that you will not get a mail in rebate since you are NOT activating new service. So watch for the deals and move on up to 2 tuners :up:


----------



## Rowsdower

bicker said:


> Anyone who thinks that the complaints had any impact on TiVo is deluding themselves.


So...if the only response that TiVo had received had been "It's no big deal! My DVR is working fine!", the engineers would have persisted in developing, testing and distributing a software update?



> _TiVo is offering a fix because a fix was found._


Should I interpret the above as a retraction of your previous claim that the lack of a fix stemmed from a business decision that obviously was final?



> _Indeed, nor anything wrong with people posting rebuttals to those complaints here._


...which is a straw man argument, given the fact that defenders of the missing fix are the ones who claimed that it was unreasonable for their opponents to comment (and told them to "shut up").


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Rowsdower said:


> So...if the only response that TiVo had received had been "It's no big deal! My DVR is working fine!", the engineers would have persisted in developing, testing and distributing a software update?.


Yes. TiVo knew there was a problem and were not looking to the customers to let them know that manual recordings being off was a bad thing. We aqre now seeing that even this hack has its own issues when implemented as a system push. The most this thread might have done is get them to accept the risk of putting a patch out before TiVo could make it bullet proof.


----------



## Rowsdower

While I agree that TiVo didn't need its customers to tell them that that there was a problem, the company easily could have been left with the impression that most of them didn't mind. Some posters even said that they preferred _not_ receiving an update (because of the risk of having something go wrong), so it was important for people with contrary viewpoints to speak up.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Rowsdower said:


> While I agree that TiVo didn't need its customers to tell them that that there was a problem, the company easily could have been left with the impression that most of them didn't mind.


most of them probably do not even know about the problem since they just got a DVR to record shows off of ebay and it works. What we see in this forum are people attuned to what is truly going on with their DVR. Contrary opinions make this forum far more useful for sure but it is not even a representation of the customer base at large.


----------



## wa4otj

I thought I understood the process and how to run tcl scripts on my Tivo. 

But I'm missing something. 

I ftp the script to my tivo, put it in the /var/hack/bin directory. 
I used chmod to set permissions to 777. 

When I run it it says "bash: ./DST_on.tcl: No such file or directory"

Yet the file is present and has execute permission.....

This has got to be so obvious that it makes me for a fool, but I don't see what's wrong... Help.....

Nat


----------



## Rowsdower

ZeoTiVo said:


> most of them probably do not even know about the problem since they just got a DVR to record shows off of ebay and it works.


Are you suggesting that most people wouldn't notice that the clock is an hour off?



> _What we see in this forum are people attuned to what is truly going on with their DVR._


How attuned does someone need to be to notice that the clock is an hour off?

Let's assume that you're right. If the only comments from the people most likely to notice the problem had been along the lines of "It's no big deal! My DVR works fine!", why would TiVo have seen a need to provide an update?


----------



## sfhub

ZeoTiVo said:


> We aqre now seeing that even this hack has its own issues when implemented as a system push. The most this thread might have done is get them to accept the risk of putting a patch out before TiVo could make it bullet proof.


What issues? It isn't implemented as a new system push so it isn't clear what you are trying to point out (a theoretical problem for an implementation that doesn't exist?). It isn't a perfect fix and there are still some cosmetic issues, but it is infinitely better than what was there before.


----------



## sbourgeo

wa4otj said:


> I thought I understood the process and how to run tcl scripts on my Tivo.
> 
> But I'm missing something.
> 
> I ftp the script to my tivo, put it in the /var/hack/bin directory.
> I used chmod to set permissions to 777.
> 
> When I run it it says "bash: ./DST_on.tcl: No such file or directory"
> 
> Yet the file is present and has execute permission.....


Sounds like the script can't find the tcl interpreter. Is "_#!/tvbin/tivosh_" the first line of the script? Also, is it possible that the file has Windows format carriage returns ("^M") at the end of each line?


----------



## wa4otj

sbourgeo said:


> Sounds like the script can't find the tcl interpreter. Is "_#!/tvbin/tivosh_" the first line of the script? Also, is it possible that the file has Windows format carriage returns ("^M") at the end of each line?


Yes, the script is cut/pasted directly from the article, and the first line is correct.

Carriage returns? Possible I guess. But I transfered with FTP in ASCII mode. Should have corrected the end of line stuff. Plus when I cat the file, it looks correct, no double spaces or other oddness...

Might the tcl interpreter be located in a different spot? This is odd...

Edited to add.. I tried telnetting to the box and typing Tivosh. I got the % prompt, and then typed puts "Done" and it properly echoed "Done"

So I guess it's finding tcl....

Ok, another update. I took DTS_on.tcl and removed all but the first and last lines. FTP'd to the Tivo, /var/hack/bin ran chmod, and then executed it.

nada. No such file or directory

The file is 2 lines:

#!/tvbin/tivosh
puts "Done"

But the same commands run interactively work fine... Now I'm really feeling lost...

One last edit.. Since tivosh works interactively, I took the script and simply entered the lines one at a time into the system. That seems to have done it. Except now some of my manual schedules are off, and others are not... SO I'm not completely out of the woods.

But at least the time is correct.

Wonder why I can't get a tcl script to run tho....... puzzling.


----------



## Adam1115

Holy COW, this thread is STILL GOING???

They sent out a patch!! Why keep arguing about it....


----------



## wa4otj

Adam1115 said:


> Holy COW, this thread is STILL GOING???
> 
> They sent out a patch!! Why keep arguing about it....


They did? Hmm. I'll look into that...

But does letting their patch install break my hacks? That would be annoying.


----------



## wa4otj

Ok, where do I find the patch they released.... Nothing on my Tivo Messages, no email from my Tivo account...

??


----------



## JackRazz

Hey everyone,
I just wanted to say thanks to jberman and the other's who created this fix for my Tivo. Worked like a champ.

JackRazz


----------



## wa4otj

This whole DST issue has me really irritated. Unlike many on here, I use a LOT of manual recordings. That's because my system has several channels that the Tivo guide does not. 

Since DST started I have missed approximately 25% of my recordings.

I'm annoyed. Thank goodness it's only TV and not something important.

I can't get the tcl script discussed in this thread to work. Probably my own stupidity, but nonetheless. And now someone is saying Tivo has released a fix, but I can't find out any more, and I see nothing on whether it will break my hacks or not.

Meanwhile, the sun is shining, the weather is warm, and I'm sitting in here playing with computers.

Maybe I need to just forget about it, and worry about it next year 
So I miss some shows... Big deal. But Damn, I missed Smallville last night! That hurt!


----------



## sfhub

wa4otj said:


> This whole DST issue has me really irritated. Unlike many on here, I use a LOT of manual recordings. That's because my system has several channels that the Tivo guide does not.
> 
> Since DST started I have missed approximately 25% of my recordings.
> 
> I'm annoyed. Thank goodness it's only TV and not something important.
> 
> I can't get the tcl script discussed in this thread to work. Probably my own stupidity, but nonetheless. And now someone is saying Tivo has released a fix, but I can't find out any more, and I see nothing on whether it will break my hacks or not.


If you ever got the script to work, back out the change and get yourself back to previous state.

Then just sign up for the fix here:
http://research.tivo.com/prioritydst/

It is not implemented as a software upgrade, rather some scripts are sent to your system and executed, thus your hacks will still work.


----------



## wa4otj

Great! Thanks. Of course, now I got the script to work. Sort of... (see edited comments above)

what a pain.


Thanks again.


----------



## jberman

wa4otj said:


> Great! Thanks. Of course, now I got the script to work. Sort of... (see edited comments above)


Looks like you've already sorted things out, but there might be something up in your $PATH environment variable. Maybe you could have gotten the script to run if you entered in its whole path when you ran it? i.e.:

bash-2.02# /var/hack/bin/DST_on.tcl

You could also try (from within the /var/hack/bin directory):

bash-2.02# ./DST_on.tcl

Regardless, I would recommend signing up for the official TiVo patch at this point anyway! Just make sure you undo the changes you made by running DST_off.tcl before the update comes through...


----------



## jberman

wa4otj said:


> Except now some of my manual schedules are off, and others are not... SO I'm not completely out of the woods.


You could try rebuilding the ToDo list with this tcl script:

#!/tvbin/tivosh
puts "Rebuilding ToDo list ..."
event send $TmkEvent::EVT_DATA_CHANGED $TmkDataChanged::SCHEDULE 0
puts -nonewline "Done. It may take a few minutes for changes "
puts "to be reflected on your TiVo."


----------



## jakeluck

for those of you who have received the priorityDST patch, can you tell us, exactly
what did the official patch do?


----------



## gastrof

ZeoTiVo said:


> most of them probably do not even know about the problem since they just got a DVR to record shows off of ebay and it works.


I think people would notice the clock being wrong and manual recordings not happening at the right time. Hello?



ZeoTiVo said:


> What we see in this forum are people attuned to what is truly going on with their DVR.


Including people who don't want their clocks wrong and notice when their shows aren't being recorded.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Contrary opinions make this forum far more useful for sure but it is not even a representation of the customer base at large.


Of course not. The average TiVo owner doesn't care a bit about getting their shows recorded or having their DVR operate properly. 



ZeoTiVo said:


> We aqre now seeing that even this hack has its own issues when implemented as a system push. The most this thread might have done is get them to accept the risk of putting a patch out before TiVo could make it bullet proof.


You mean the bullet proof patch that TiVo SAID didn't AND COULDN'T exist? A patch they weren't going to provide until members of this forum showed it COULD be done?

They weren't GOING to provide a patch, bullet proof or not.

This fix isn't being "rushed" in any sense, except in the sense that someone proved it could be done and now TiVo wants to not look neglectful, so they're acting.


----------



## dhulcher

jakeluck said:


> for those of you who have received the priorityDST patch, can you tell us, exactly
> what did the official patch do?


1. It corrects the current time.
2. It corrects the times displayed on the program guide.
3. Your programs in Now Playing that were recorded *before the start of DST * will show the record time an hour later than its actual time. This is not a problem for me, and I don't think anyone cares about the time listed on something already recorded correctly.
4. It fixes the time for manual recordings. I have one manual recording that I did not change before the fix, and it has the correct time and program now.


----------



## dylanemcgregor

Rowsdower said:


> Are you suggesting that most people wouldn't notice that the clock is an hour off?
> 
> How attuned does someone need to be to notice that the clock is an hour off?
> 
> Let's assume that you're right. If the only comments from the people most likely to notice the problem had been along the lines of "It's no big deal! My DVR works fine!", why would TiVo have seen a need to provide an update?


I'm someone who hasn't noticed that the clock is off by an hour on the TiVo, and in fact I have no idea how I would notice this. I know there is some Select-Play-Select code that turns on a clock, but other than that, how would I ever even see the time on the TiVo? I never look at the recording screen to see what time a show was recorded, and even if I did I don't know what time it is supposed to be on, so I wouldn't know it is displaying the wrong time.

I admit I haven't read the whole thread, so I feel that I must be missing something. But if I understand the issues right

a) If you have no manual recordings all your shows will record correctly, but will display the incorrect time for three weeks?

b) If you have manual recordings you have to temporarily change the recording time on only those recordings, and change it back 3 weeks later? Something that I imagine for most people can't take more than 10 minutes each time?

As I said I've only skimmed through this thread so maybe I missed something here, but I have a S1 that hasn't missed a single scheduled show without me doing anything. If it wasn't for this place I would be totally unaware that there was any difference between my S1 & S2.


----------



## timckelley

dylanemcgregor said:


> how would I ever even see the time on the TiVo? I never look at the recording screen to see what time a show was recorded, and even if I did I don't know what time it is supposed to be on, so I wouldn't know it is displaying the wrong time.


If you hit the 'guide' button to see what's playing, the times listed would be an hour off - that's how you'd know it's goofed up. And then if you scheduled a manual recording for one of those shows, it'd get missed by an hour. That's another way you'd know.


----------



## dylanemcgregor

timckelley said:


> If you hit the 'guide' button to see what's playing, the times listed would be an hour off - that's how you'd know it's goofed up. And then if you scheduled a manual recording for one of those shows, it'd get missed by an hour. That's another way you'd know.


I tend to not watch any live tv, so I'd still not notice. And I don't really ever use manual recordings, except for a couple of months when I didn't have a phone line so I couldn't get guide data. Manual recordings seem kind of unnecessary with TiVo, although I know some people use them for when guide data isn't available.

Still seems like a pretty small thing to get worked up over, but what do I know...?


----------



## dhulcher

dylanemcgregor said:


> Still seems like a pretty small thing to get worked up over, but what do I know...?


Everyone had their opinions on this, as you can see by browsing the posts.

Without this fix, the S1 users with many manual recordings would have had to change their manual recordings twice a year every year for as long as this DST schedule was in place (I don't expect the DST schedule to change again anytime soon, but who knows?). Some S1 users have many manual recordings. I did not need the fix for that, because I don't have many manual recordings.

For me, it came down to principle. I could not accept that TiVo could not or would not make this simple DST fix to the S1 when they made it to all of the other series. Not fixing the S1 for this DST could have set a precedent for not fixing future S1 software issues.


----------



## jakeluck

dhulcher said:


> 1. It corrects the current time.
> 2. It corrects the times displayed on the program guide.
> 3. Your programs in Now Playing that were recorded *before the start of DST * will show the record time an hour later than its actual time. This is not a problem for me, and I don't think anyone cares about the time listed on something already recorded correctly.
> 4. It fixes the time for manual recordings. I have one manual recording that I did not change before the fix, and it has the correct time and program now.


oh, let me be more spedific, which files on the file system were changed ?


----------



## dhulcher

jakeluck said:


> oh, let me be more spedific, which files on the file system were changed ?


Sorry, I don't know that info  but it has been discussed on the forums.


----------



## sfhub

jakeluck said:


> oh, let me be more spedific, which files on the file system were changed ?


From the past posts on this thread or the others, a script was downloaded which does some sanity checks then changes your GMT offset to be 1hr offset to use the TZ offset to simulate the DST function.

It would be equivalent to you manually going into setup and changing your TZ from Pacific, to Mountain, *if* that was an option in your software version.


----------



## Screenie

Hey all, 

I tried to sign up for the patch, but can't. I have a Pioneer 810H, which has the wrong time on it b/c of DST issues, but starts with 275 isntead of 000 or 010 or whatever. 

Why aren't they offering the patch to Pioneer 810H's?? 

Any ideas for how to fix mine? 

Thanks!


----------



## Rottluver

ZeoTiVo said:


> The point is you can get a new TiVo and transfer the monthjly service directly over to it right on the web site. You just have to understand that you will not get a mail in rebate since you are NOT activating new service. *So watch for the deals and move on up to 2 tuners* :up:


All THREE of my S1's have dual tuners......


----------



## Rowsdower

dhulcher said:


> Everyone had their opinions on this, as you can see by browsing the posts.
> 
> Without this fix, the S1 users with many manual recordings would have had to change their manual recordings twice a year every year for as long as this DST schedule was in place


Four times, actually (unless the DST offset was disabled completely, resulting in an incorrect clock for 34 weeks each year).


----------



## wa4otj

jberman said:


> Looks like you've already sorted things out, but there might be something up in your $PATH environment variable. Maybe you could have gotten the script to run if you entered in its whole path when you ran it? i.e.:
> 
> bash-2.02# /var/hack/bin/DST_on.tcl
> 
> You could also try (from within the /var/hack/bin directory):
> 
> bash-2.02# ./DST_on.tcl
> 
> Regardless, I would recommend signing up for the official TiVo patch at this point anyway! Just make sure you undo the changes you made by running DST_off.tcl before the update comes through...


I plan to update to the new patch, I guess. But I'm still confused about why it wouldn't run the script. I already tried both pathname variations, with the same results, or lack of results. The $PATH variable seems to be correct as well.

When I run a script it fails, but I can call tivosh and execute each line interactively, and it works fine. Weird. I'd love to get to the bottom of it, but my Tivo is happy now. I'm betting it's something with permissions. I thot 777 allowed everything, but maybe I need a different setting. I'll play with it when I have more time/

BTW, the manual recordings in the TODO list eventually corrected themselves to show the right time. I have a recording today at 2:30. Yesterday it said it was going to record it at 1:30. This morning I went to change it to the correct time and discovered overnight it had fixed itself. Cool!

Thanks everyone.


----------



## jberman

wa4otj said:


> BTW, the manual recordings in the TODO list eventually corrected themselves to show the right time. I have a recording today at 2:30. Yesterday it said it was going to record it at 1:30. This morning I went to change it to the correct time and discovered overnight it had fixed itself. Cool!


Yeah, from what I understand sometimes the reindexing takes a little while. Glad it worked out for you in the end!


----------



## PortlandPaw

I don't have the time to read this whole thread, so if somebody else has posted this information, I apologize.

With a little help from our friends at OzTivo I figured out the proper MFS at least for version 2.5.2.

Use the scripts that start here and substitute /Setup for /State/LocationConfig and TimeZone for TimeZoneOld.

It seems to work as well on my DTivos as has been reported on the SAs.


----------



## jberman

PortlandPaw said:


> I don't have the time to read this whole thread, so if somebody else has posted this information, I apologize.
> 
> With a little help from our friends at OzTivo I figured out the proper MFS at least for version 2.5.2.
> 
> Use the scripts that start here and substitute /Setup for /State/LocationConfig and TimeZone for TimeZoneOld.
> 
> It seems to work as well on my DTivos as has been reported on the SAs.


Cool... I believe webcrush was looking for this information (here). I'm sure s/he (and maybe others) will be thankful for that information!


----------



## jmayes

Yeah PortlandPaw!!

Just what the doctor ordered.

Thankx!
Jmayes


----------



## bicker

Screenie said:


> I tried to sign up for the patch, but can't. I have a Pioneer 810H, which has the wrong time on it b/c of DST issues, but starts with 275 isntead of 000 or 010 or whatever.


My Pioneer 810H is also series 275. I have noted no DST issues.



Screenie said:


> Why aren't they offering the patch to Pioneer 810H's??


I suspect you have a problem totally unrelated to what the patch affects, so the patch would only mess your DVR up. I think you need to isolate why your Pioneer's time is wrong, in light of the fact that mine is okay.

Are you subscribed? I suspect that if you're not subscribed, the DST fix applied to all Series 2 boxes never made it to you. You may have to subscribe for a month, or ask TiVo for a special exception, since you have TiVo Plus service.


----------



## CrispyCritter

bicker said:


> I suspect you have a problem totally unrelated to what the patch affects, so the patch would only mess your DVR up. I think you need to isolate why your Pioneer's time is wrong, in light of the fact that mine is okay.


I agree. Note that it could be something as simple as Screenie not specifying DST when Guided Setup was done. Screenie should redo Guided Setup as a first step.


----------



## PortlandPaw

Please see my post -- I've made the whol DST process easier. Thanks, jberman!


----------



## gastrof

PortlandPaw said:


> Please see my post -- I've made the whol DST process easier. Thanks, jberman!


Have you shared this with TiVo?

It does seem they need help with such things.


----------



## jberman

PortlandPaw said:


> Please see my post -- I've made the whol DST process easier. Thanks, jberman!


Nice!


----------



## sfhub

After looking at the latest Indiana Time Zone/DST shenanigans (some counties moved from eastern to central time zone on April 2, 2006, and one county moved back to eastern time zone on March 11, 2007), large portions of the S1 DST fix would be the same or similar to the one needed to handle Indiana. I wonder if TiVo didn't realize the Indiana script could be used in this way until jberman pointed it out, and that script ended up being repurposed for the S1 DST fix?

http://www.timetemperature.com/tzus/indiana_time_zone.shtml


----------



## scooterboy

Not going to dis Tivo or the complainers, just thank jberman et al for their contribution.

Nice to know that there are clever generous people here. 


:up: :up: :up:


----------



## BobCamp1

sfhub said:


> After looking at the latest Indiana Time Zone/DST shenanigans (some counties moved from eastern to central time zone on April 2, 2006, and one county moved back to eastern time zone on March 11, 2007), large portions of the S1 DST fix would be the same or similar to the one needed to handle Indiana. I wonder if TiVo didn't realize the Indiana script could be used in this way until jberman pointed it out, and that script ended up being repurposed for the S1 DST fix?
> 
> http://www.timetemperature.com/tzus/indiana_time_zone.shtml


I hope not -- I also pointed this out a couple of times somewhere in the beginning of this thread (or perhaps the other DST thread). I think jberman reminded Tivo that they had RAW offset settings for the time zone, so that the east coast units could get fixed after all. So instead of switching from Eastern to Atlantic time zones (which the Tivo can't do), it switches from Eastern to "-4 from UTC" time zone.


----------



## sfhub

BobCamp1 said:


> I hope not -- I also pointed this out a couple of times somewhere in the beginning of this thread (or perhaps the other DST thread). I think jberman reminded Tivo that they had RAW offset settings for the time zone, so that the east coast units could get fixed after all. So instead of switching from Eastern to Atlantic time zones (which the Tivo can't do), it switches from Eastern to "-4 from UTC" time zone.


Yes, obviously you would change the script appropriately, but my point was conceptually the infrastructure was already in place. Download a script based on zip code that changes your time zone (to simulate DST)


----------



## lrhorer

dylanemcgregor said:


> I'm someone who hasn't noticed that the clock is off by an hour on the TiVo, and in fact I have no idea how I would notice this.


While watching a program - live or other wise - hit the right arrow. The time is displayed in the upper right corner. I use this regularly to see the time while watching TV at night.



dylanemcgregor said:


> I admit I haven't read the whole thread, so I feel that I must be missing something. But if I understand the issues right
> 
> a) If you have no manual recordings all your shows will record correctly, but will display the incorrect time for three weeks?


Four weeks, actually. Three weeks in March and April, and one week in November.



dylanemcgregor said:


> b) If you have manual recordings you have to temporarily change the recording time on only those recordings, and change it back 3 weeks later? Something that I imagine for most people can't take more than 10 minutes each time?


Twice each year, from now on. The patch should fix it, however. Some people have multiple TiVos. I'll allow it's a pain. It doesn't affect me personally, and I have **FAR** more serious ongoing DST problems on the HP-UX systems I manage at work, but for some it's a pain.


----------



## lrhorer

sfhub said:


> Then just sign up for the fix here:
> http://research.tivo.com/prioritydst/
> 
> It is not implemented as a software upgrade, rather some scripts are sent to your system and executed, thus your hacks will still work.


I have upgradesoftware=false set in the bootpage. Will the patch still run?


----------



## lrhorer

fluke said:


> Given this premature dropping of support with Tivo products, I can no longer advocate users to choose Tivo over other DVR solutions.


I could not disagree more. First of all, have you ever tried to get support for any of the other DVRs? I have, and I assure you it is no less of a problem than attempting it for a TiVo. TiVo's tech support leaves a vast amount to be desired, but support for other DVRs is no better.

More importantly, have you ever actually used other DVRs? They are horrible. I mean truly hard to use, stupid, totally vomitous pieces of #@!$(#%*. I have a Standalone Series I TiVo, and for several months I obtained a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD under lease from TW Cable. This alleviated the squabling over tuner conflicts, because the 8300 has dual tuners, and when added to the SA Tivo, that made 3 tuners. It also handled HD content, which the Series I does not. Those were its only positive attributes, however. As sson as it was available, I moved to a TiVo Series III.

I won't even bother to mention the massive problems I had during setup, but using the 8300 was downright painful. Whenever viewing it, I was compelkled to isssue a constant stream of invective at everything from its horrible lack of features to its ridiculous UI. The list of terrible aspects of the 8300 is almost endless, but here is a short version:

Not upgradable or hackable
Tiny hard drive
No way to deliver 5:1 or better audio on HDMI (this is partially the TV's fault, but not entirely)
No control video on 1394 output (the only way to get 5:1 audio)
Start / End jump utility is hard to implement
No 15 minute jump
Rewind and Fast Forward work poorly
No THX support
No wishlist or search by anything other than title or time
Very few recording options
No TiVoWeb or anything like it
Only a 7 day TV guide
Impossible to get the (very limited) Season Pass equivalent after the current week's episode has aired.
Not possible to leave the program and start back where one left off
If recording begins on a new program while the user is still viewing the current recording, the user is dumped out of the current program and must start all over viewing from the beginning.
No 15 minute marks on the timeline banner
Recording options are highly limited and difficult to implement
No Suggestions list
No Upcoming Showings list
No To Do list
Navigating the menus - limited as they are - is quite difficult
Expensive (at least where I live).


----------



## PortlandPaw

...other than that, it's a great machine!


----------



## LoadStar

lrhorer said:


> I could not disagree more. First of all, have you ever tried to get support for any of the other DVRs? I have, and I assure you it is no less of a problem than attempting it for a TiVo. TiVo's tech support leaves a vast amount to be desired, but support for other DVRs is no better.
> 
> More importantly, have you ever actually used other DVRs? They are horrible. I mean truly hard to use, stupid, totally vomitous pieces of #@!$(#%*. I have a Standalone Series I TiVo, and for several months I obtained a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD under lease from TW Cable. This alleviated the squabling over tuner conflicts, because the 8300 has dual tuners, and when added to the SA Tivo, that made 3 tuners. It also handled HD content, which the Series I does not. Those were its only positive attributes, however. As sson as it was available, I moved to a TiVo Series III.
> 
> I won't even bother to mention the massive problems I had during setup, but using the 8300 was downright painful. Whenever viewing it, I was compelkled to isssue a constant stream of invective at everything from its horrible lack of features to its ridiculous UI. The list of terrible aspects of the 8300 is almost endless, but here is a short version:
> 
> Not upgradable or hackable
> Tiny hard drive
> No way to deliver 5:1 or better audio on HDMI (this is partially the TV's fault, but not entirely)
> No control video on 1394 output (the only way to get 5:1 audio)
> Start / End jump utility is hard to implement
> No 15 minute jump
> Rewind and Fast Forward work poorly
> No THX support
> No wishlist or search by anything other than title or time
> Very few recording options
> No TiVoWeb or anything like it
> Only a 7 day TV guide
> Impossible to get the (very limited) Season Pass equivalent after the current week's episode has aired.
> Not possible to leave the program and start back where one left off
> If recording begins on a new program while the user is still viewing the current recording, the user is dumped out of the current program and must start all over viewing from the beginning.
> No 15 minute marks on the timeline banner
> Recording options are highly limited and difficult to implement
> No Suggestions list
> No Upcoming Showings list
> No To Do list
> Navigating the menus - limited as they are - is quite difficult
> Expensive (at least where I live).


Just to clarify: there are now at least 3 different operating systems for the Explorer 8300HD in the field:
- Passport Echo 
- SARA
- Navigator

SARA is the Scientific Atlanta developed operating system; Passport Echo is by PowerTV (originally developed by Pioneer, AFAIK), and Navigator is developed in-house at Time Warner Cable. Each of these have different capabilities.

I've got the Passport Echo software on my Explorer 8300, and on mine (my responses in red, of course):
Not upgradable or hackable - True/False; no hacking, but I can upgrade mine with a eSATA hard drive
Tiny hard drive - False - 160 GB hard drive on mine
No way to deliver 5:1 or better audio on HDMI (this is partially the TV's fault, but not entirely) - Dunno - I don't have a surround sound system
No control video on 1394 output (the only way to get 5:1 audio) - Dunno - never tried messing with 1394
Start / End jump utility is hard to implement - Not sure what you mean - if you mean what I think you mean, it has skip to tick, which works much the same as TiVo's skip to tick, AFAIK
No 15 minute jump - False - it does have skip to tick, and a tick is every 15 minutes
Rewind and Fast Forward work poorly - False
No THX support - Dunno, again no surround sound system here
No wishlist or search by anything other than title or time - Mine has search by time, title, or theme (a.k.a "genre")
Very few recording options - True, sort of - it does have SUID/Save until space needed, start early, end late, but that's it; of course, I haven't needed any other options
No TiVoWeb or anything like it - True
Only a 7 day TV guide - True
Impossible to get the (very limited) Season Pass equivalent after the current week's episode has aired. - True
Not possible to leave the program and start back where one left off - False
If recording begins on a new program while the user is still viewing the current recording, the user is dumped out of the current program and must start all over viewing from the beginning. - True and false, I think; if you start watching late and just rewind, then yes; if you select the program from the DVR list, then no (I forget, haven't encountered this for a while)
No 15 minute marks on the timeline banner - False
Recording options are highly limited and difficult to implement - this is a repeat of an earlier complaint, responded to above
No Suggestions list - True
No Upcoming Showings list - True
No To Do list - False
Navigating the menus - limited as they are - is quite difficult - False, as far as I'm concerned
Expensive (at least where I live). - False, it's actually cheaper than TiVo here


----------



## schwinn

FYI - As far as I have ever seen, THX is not a "standard" for surround sound, like DTS, Dolby digital, or whatever. It's a certification for the "quality" of the hardware, and that it meets certain audio requirements. Cable boxes do not need certification, as they are not audio amplifiers or such. THX Certifications include technologies for ReEQ, Timbre Matching, and Adaptive Decorrelation, and Boundary Gain Compensation. Again, these are all processing steps applied to the audio that has nothing to do with the cable box or DVR.

The point is - there is no such thing as "THX Support"... this is the job of your surround equipment, not the DVD/DVR/etc.

Secondly, you can get 5.1 audio via optical/coaxial SPDIF interfaces, so 1394 is not "the only way to get 5.1 audio".

I can't comment on the other features/lacking items you have mentioned... as I only have my Tivo, and my MythTV box to work with. To tell you honestly, MythTV does a damn good job of being like a Tivo... though it requires a LOT more knowledge to really get setup. But that's neither here nor there...


----------



## lrhorer

LoadStar said:


> Just to clarify: there are now at least 3 different operating systems for the Explorer 8300HD in the field:
> - Passport Echo
> - SARA
> - Navigator
> 
> SARA is the Scientific Atlanta developed operating system; Passport Echo is by PowerTV (originally developed by Pioneer, AFAIK), and Navigator is developed in-house at Time Warner Cable. Each of these have different capabilities.
> *I doubt the unit leased from TWC is available with anything but Navigator. It doesn't relaly matter what else has been developed if only Navigator is available. Since the unit is leased, not purchased, the user's options are strictly limited by the policies of the owner of the box - Time Warner Cable.*
> 
> I've got the Passport Echo software on my Explorer 8300, and on mine (my responses in red, of course):
> Not upgradable or hackable - True/False; no hacking, but I can upgrade mine with a eSATA hard drive
> *Did they get that working? When I had it, they said , "No". I verified with SA tech support.*
> 
> Tiny hard drive - False - 160 GB hard drive on mine
> *For an HD recorder, that's tiny. In fact, it's ultra-tiny. For HD material, even the 250G drive in the Series III is tiny, but it's easly replacable with a 750G drive, which is somewhat small for this purpose. Of course right now there seems to be a 2T limit, but I'm hoping that will be overcome. My Series I has a 160G hard drive, which effectively gives it more than 10 times the storage of the 8300 at their best relative qualities. That, plus the Series I is networked with my 1T file server, so I can easily store more than 200 best quality 2 hour videos. I can show videos from my server on the Series III, and I'm hoping to have similar insertion and extraction capabilities to the Series I on the Series III before long.
> 
> BTW, that's another important feature not found on the 8300. 'No connectivity to my LAN. Although they are still rather expensive, I can purchase (or rent, if I choose) videos on Amazon.com and download them to the TiVo from the Internet any time I want.*
> 
> No way to deliver 5:1 or better audio on HDMI (this is partially the TV's fault, but not entirely) - Dunno - I don't have a surround sound system
> *Trust me, unless your TV supports digital pass-through, it won't work.*
> 
> No control video on 1394 output (the only way to get 5:1 audio) - Dunno - never tried messing with 1394
> *It's the only way to get 5:1 audio if the TV does not support digital pass-through. It works fairly well (with somewhat frequent lockups), but one cannot see the control video or menus or FF and RR video. It means constantly switching to the HDMI output to fast forward through commercials and then back for the show. 'A real pain.*
> 
> Start / End jump utility is hard to implement - Not sure what you mean - if you mean what I think you mean, it has skip to tick, which works much the same as TiVo's skip to tick, AFAIK
> *The unit I leased had no tick marks at all, and the skip to start/end function was only accessed through multiple sub-menus. On the TiVo it's a single button press.*
> 
> No 15 minute jump - False - it does have skip to tick, and a tick is every 15 minutes
> *See above.*
> 
> Rewind and Fast Forward work poorly - False
> *Nope - True. The FF and RR video on the 8300 are very jerky compared to the Series III or any other TiVo. What's more, changing from FF3 to FF1 or FF2 is easy on the TiVo but difficult on the 8300. Using a single button, on the TiVo one can change from RR3 to RR2 to RR1 to Play to FF1 to FF2 to FF3 to Play. On the 8300, this is a discouraging mess of button presses requiring multiple combinations of 3 different buttons.*
> 
> No THX support - Dunno, again no surround sound system here
> *IF not the 21st century, at least join the 20th, will ya? *
> 
> No wishlist or search by anything other than title or time - Mine has search by time, title, or theme (a.k.a "genre")
> *OK, but not by Actor, Director, global keyword, etc. 'No filtering by category or or sub-category. Pathetic.*
> 
> Very few recording options - True, sort of - it does have SUID/Save until space needed, start early, end late, but that's it; of course, I haven't needed any other options
> *No overlap protection, no priority settings, very limited early / late options, very limited first run / rerun / duplicates, no quality variables, very limited SUID/Save options. Need I go on? (I certainly can, as there's a great deal more.)*
> 
> No TiVoWeb or anything like it - True
> Only a 7 day TV guide - True
> Impossible to get the (very limited) Season Pass equivalent after the current week's episode has aired. - True
> Not possible to leave the program and start back where one left off - False
> *I take it back. There was a very limited version of this, hidden deep in a menu. On the TiVo it's right up front and is in fact the default.*
> 
> If recording begins on a new program while the user is still viewing the current recording, the user is dumped out of the current program and must start all over viewing from the beginning. - True and false, I think; if you start watching late and just rewind, then yes; if you select the program from the DVR list, then no (I forget, haven't encountered this for a while)
> *To my recollection, it did it not matter what. For that matter, I only know of two ways to enter the recording, from the DVR list or to tell the DVR to record the live program. Either way, it dumped one out of the "live" program when the tuner switched channels and then one was forced to go back to the DVR menu, run the program, and fast forward to where one left off.*
> 
> No 15 minute marks on the timeline banner - False
> Recording options are highly limited and difficult to implement - this is a repeat of an earlier complaint, responded to above
> *I wasn't clear. There are different sets of options on the TiVo for each recording type: Wish list, Manual, Season Pass, and Live Recording.*
> 
> No Suggestions list - True
> No Upcoming Showings list - True
> No To Do list - False
> *OK, there was a rather pathetic view of the things to be recorded. It was not sufficiently featured to be compared to the TiVo To Do list. 'No history. 'No descriptions. 'No list of items not to be recorded. 'No display of future showings. 'No reasons why one program would be recorded and the other would not. Saying the 8300 has a To Do list is like saying a Volvo has a flamethrower just like a Sherman Tank because its has a cigarette lighter.*
> 
> Navigating the menus - limited as they are - is quite difficult - False, as far as I'm concerned
> *It's an opinion, of course, but I had a hard time finding many items on the 8300. I never had such trouble on the TiVo. I also was frequently left unsure whether the items I had selected were implemented. When I would look back at the settings, they always seem to have reverted to default.*
> 
> Expensive (at least where I live). - False, it's actually cheaper than TiVo here


*It varies, of course. Here, with hidden costs and all it was a bit over $40 a month. The Series III is $1000 with lifetime service plus $3 a month for the CableCards. I've had my Series I for 6 years. A 6 year lease plus tier features on the 8300 would be $2880. Of course, a second Series III would be more expensive, while a second 8300 is only $10 a month, but even with 3 TiVos I would still come out better after 6 years than with 3 TWC DVRs.*


----------



## lrhorer

schwinn said:


> FYI - As far as I have ever seen, THX is not a "standard" for surround sound, like DTS, Dolby digital, or whatever. It's a certification for the "quality" of the hardware, and that it meets certain audio requirements. Cable boxes do not need certification, as they are not audio amplifiers or such. THX Certifications include technologies for ReEQ, Timbre Matching, and Adaptive Decorrelation, and Boundary Gain Compensation. Again, these are all processing steps applied to the audio that has nothing to do with the cable box or DVR.


Argue that with THX labs. They certify the TiVo Series III, and it is the only THX certified DVR in the industry. The THX splash screen and demonstration audio clip come up right after the Series III completes booting. TiVo, Inc would not legally be allowed to use the THX trademark or announce the certification without the express contractural permission of THX labs, whatever it may mean.

And just BTW, all digital set top terminals and DVRs do have D/A converters and audio amplifiers in them. Exactly what section of these and to what specifications THX labs is certifying, I don't know, or whether the certification applies to them, only to the digital outputs, or both, I don't know.



schwinn said:


> The point is - there is no such thing as "THX Support"... this is the job of your surround equipment, not the DVD/DVR/etc.


OK, I should have said, "THX Labs Certification".



schwinn said:


> Secondly, you can get 5.1 audio via optical/coaxial SPDIF interfaces, so 1394 is not "the only way to get 5.1 audio".


The post was concerning the capabilities (or lack thereof) of the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR. It has an HDMI output and an IEEE 1394 ("Firewire") port. It has no S/PDIF ports, either optical or coaxial. I am well aware 5:1 or even 7:1 audio are available via S/PDIF ports, since I use them on numerous different devices to send surround audio to several different A/V receivers in my house. Since the 8300 does not have S/PDIF ports, however, and since most TVs (mine included) do not have digital pass-through on their HDMI ports, the firewire port is indeed the only way to deliver 5:1 surround sound to an A/V receiver using the 8300. The Series III TiVo, on the other hand, DOES have an optical S/PDIF port, which is why one is readily able to deliver 5:1 audio from the Series III and not the SA 8300. Capiche?



schwinn said:


> I can't comment on the other features/lacking items you have mentioned... as I only have my Tivo, and my MythTV box to work with. To tell you honestly, MythTV does a damn good job of being like a Tivo... though it requires a LOT more knowledge to really get setup. But that's neither here nor there...


I didn't think Myth TV was available in 1080i HD, or using CableCards. I'm mistaken?


----------



## BrianEWilliams

ZeoTiVo said:


> I bought a DT for 155.40 for one year and will transfer my monthly 6.95 service from a Toshivo DVR TiVo to that DT when it runs out. My ToshiVo will keep working on TiVo Basic mode instead
> 
> :up:


A while back I downgraded my Toshiba TiVo from monthly back to basic, but they actually just shut my service down. Didn't notice it until the guide data ran out. Took a fair amount of time on the phone to get it fixed. Now it says my account is closed, but the TiVo basic works fine. Be careful when you do this, or the same thing will happen to you.


----------



## LoadStar

lrhorer said:


> I doubt the unit leased from TWC is available with anything but Navigator. It doesn't relaly matter what else has been developed if only Navigator is available. Since the unit is leased, not purchased, the user's options are strictly limited by the policies of the owner of the box - Time Warner Cable.


Well, that varies from region to region. Here in the Milwaukee TWC region, we have Passport Echo. On other Time Warner systems, they have one of the three OS's listed (mostly Passport Echo or SARA - not too many Explorer rollouts yet on the 8300, at least from what I've heard)

You're right, however, that the end user won't get a choice as to which OS to run - they get what they get. My point was that "your mileage may vary" - that is, the experience one will have with the 8300HD will vary depending on which OS is deployed in that particular region.



> Did they get that working? When I had it, they said , "No". I verified with SA tech support.


Again, it varies from region to region. It's always been a supported option with the 8300HD - but it's something that can be turned on or off at the head-end. Here, it's turned on.



> For an HD recorder, that's tiny. In fact, it's ultra-tiny. For HD material, even the 250G drive in the Series III is tiny, but it's easly replacable with a 750G drive, which is somewhat small for this purpose.


*shrug* So far, I have 20 hours of HD programming stacked up on my DVR, plus a smattering of SD programs. A DVR is a device for time-shifting, not archiving, so I'd say that's pretty respectable... if you are using it to archige programs, I suppose you might think it's small. For most people, though, since I presume it's able to just record the digital stream without transcoding (much like the DirecTiVo), 160 gig on the 8300SD isn't all that bad.



> BTW, that's another important feature not found on the 8300. 'No connectivity to my LAN. Although they are still rather expensive, I can purchase (or rent, if I choose) videos on Amazon.com and download them to the TiVo from the Internet any time I want.


Granted. It IS network accessible - the 8300HD in fact gets an IP address and all from the head end - but it isn't consumer network accessible, and it's a mystery why they haven't developed consumer network applications for the 8300.



> The unit I leased had no tick marks at all, and the skip to start/end function was only accessed through multiple sub-menus. On the TiVo it's a single button press.


Well, yeah, that's what I was saying about the "your mileage may vary" thing. There are definitely tick marks on the Passport Echo software that is in use here in Milwaukee region.



> Rewind and Fast Forward work poorly - False
> 
> 
> 
> Nope - True. The FF and RR video on the 8300 are very jerky compared to the Series III or any other TiVo. What's more, changing from FF3 to FF1 or FF2 is easy on the TiVo but difficult on the 8300. Using a single button, on the TiVo one can change from RR3 to RR2 to RR1 to Play to FF1 to FF2 to FF3 to Play. On the 8300, this is a discouraging mess of button presses requiring multiple combinations of 3 different buttons.
Click to expand...

Again, this is a YMMV thing based on OS.

Here, how it works: press the FF button once, it goes to FF1 speed; press again, it goes to FF2; press again, it goes to FF3; press again, it cycles back down to FF1. Same behavior with the RW button. And the video isn't jerky at all here.



> No wishlist or search by anything other than title or time - Mine has search by time, title, or theme (a.k.a "genre")
> 
> 
> 
> OK, but not by Actor, Director, global keyword, etc. 'No filtering by category or or sub-category. Pathetic.
Click to expand...

Granted.


> Very few recording options - True, sort of - it does have SUID/Save until space needed, start early, end late, but that's it; of course, I haven't needed any other options
> 
> 
> 
> No overlap protection, no priority settings, very limited early / late options, very limited first run / rerun / duplicates, no quality variables, very limited SUID/Save options. Need I go on? (I certainly can, as there's a great deal more.)
Click to expand...

Mine has: 
- No overlap protection, but it does have conflict checking
- Start 1 to 10 minutes early (by 1 minute increments)
- End 1-5 minutes late (by 1 min increments), 15, 30, 1 hr, 2 hr, 3 hr late
- SUID or Save Until Space Needed

And for series recordings:
- Priority ranking
- "Any Day is OK," "M-F Only," "Sa-Su Only," or manually choose any or all of M, T, W, Th, F, Sa, Su
- First run & repeats or First Run Only
- This Channel Only or Any Channe
- This Time Only or Any Time
- Keep All Episodes, or Keep 1-5 episode(s)

Stacks up pretty well compared to TiVo in that option.



> Not possible to leave the program and start back where one left off - False
> 
> 
> 
> I take it back. There was a very limited version of this, hidden deep in a menu. On the TiVo it's right up front and is in fact the default.
Click to expand...

Again, YMMV based on the OS used in your region.

Anyway, the same applies to most of the rest of the comments. I'm going to take a wild stab and guess your region probably had or has SARA, which from what I've heard is a confusing mess and bug-ridden to boot. The Passport Echo software is no TiVo, but it's pretty darn good for what I pay for it.


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## LoadStar

lrhorer said:


> The post was concerning the capabilities (or lack thereof) of the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR. It has an HDMI output and an IEEE 1394 ("Firewire") port. It has no S/PDIF ports, either optical or coaxial.


Mine has an optical out.

The problem with relaying experiences with the 8300HD is that not only does the OS vary from region to region - so too does the hardware. The individual cable franchise can order the box with or without SATA, 1394, HDMI, Optical out, etc.

It's a lot like cell phones. A Motorola RAZR on Verizon isn't necessarily the same RAZR you get from Cingular, or from US Cellular.


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## lrhorer

LoadStar said:


> You're right, however, that the end user won't get a choice as to which OS to run - they get what they get. My point was that "your mileage may vary" - that is, the experience one will have with the 8300HD will vary depending on which OS is deployed in that particular region.


Compare with the TiVo, on which the user may mount whatever OS and applications are available - at their own risk and providing the user is not worried about voiding the warranty, of course.



LoadStar said:


> *shrug* So far, I have 20 hours of HD programming stacked up on my DVR, plus a smattering of SD programs. A DVR is a device for time-shifting, not archiving, so I'd say that's pretty respectable...


Like any other device, it is up to the user to decide how to use the device, and whether the device in question suits one's requirements. A more flexible device has a broader appeal than a less flexible one, and one always has the option to use a feature in the future not being used in thge present, bt only if that feature is avaialable.



LoadStar said:


> if you are using it to archige programs, I suppose you might think it's small. For most people, though, since I presume it's able to just record the digital stream without transcoding (much like the DirecTiVo), 160 gig on the 8300SD isn't all that bad.


Even allowing that limitation, that's too small, although the lack of a Suggestions capability makes it less so. Just for a concrete example, I have the TiVo record ER on UHD and all the "Law and Order" variants off TNTHD. UHD usually shows 2 episodes of ER and TNT often shows 7 or 8 of these a day, and at roughly 6G each, it doesn't take very many days at all before the drive is completely full and recordings start getting dumped. Given i have several movies saved to watch when relatives come over, even with a 250G drive I have to go through the recordings pretty much daily or at least every other day to delete programs I have already seen, or else things I don't want deleted are dumped.



LoadStar said:


> Again, this is a YMMV thing based on OS.
> Perhaps.
> 
> 
> 
> LoadStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here, how it works: press the FF button once, it goes to FF1 speed; press again, it goes to FF2; press again, it goes to FF3; press again, it cycles back down to FF1. Same behavior with the RW button.
> 
> 
> 
> Right. But what happens when in FF2 if the user presses RW? ON the unit I had, it jumped to RR1. On the TiVo, it drops to FF1, then to Play on a second press, then to RR1 on a third press. This is a much more flexible and intuitive paradigm. On the TiVo, pressing one of the direction controls moves it one slot further in the indicated direction, with Play being the overflow and underflow option. This means much less moving back and forth between the direction keys.
> 
> 
> 
> LoadStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> And for series recordings:
> - Priority ranking
> - "Any Day is OK," "M-F Only," "Sa-Su Only," or manually choose any or all of M, T, W, Th, F, Sa, Su
> - First run & repeats or First Run Only
> - This Channel Only or Any Channe
> - This Time Only or Any Time
> - Keep All Episodes, or Keep 1-5 episode(s)
> 
> Stacks up pretty well compared to TiVo in that option.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 'Depends on one's criteria weighting and what one considers "pretty well". The "All with duplicates" setting can be used as a very important method of conflict management. The 8300 doesn't have it. The TiVo can keep 1-5, 10, 15, 25, or all episodes. The only feature the 8300 has which the TiVo does not is the ability to automatically limit the day / times a recording is made.
Click to expand...


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## janry

WTF! Why does my Series 1 now have the wrong time again. I woke up & powered up. I get the TiVo power up sequence video as if the power has been off (it hasn't) and find the time is not DST adjusted, but the programming times are as they are suppose to be meaning everything will record incorrectly. Anybody else see this?


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## sfhub

Sounds like they sent the rollback script out a day early to increase the chances you get it in time. It should fix itself by Sunday when the builtin DST kicks in.

Look at the guide data for Sunday and see if the times are right.

BTW irrespective of what the guide data says, your season passes and wishlists will record correct. It is only the manual records you need to be concerned about. So if you have any manual records for Saturday, look those over.


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## biker

I received it last night.


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## dd9

Looks like manual recordings are kinda screwed up again with this rollback. A 12 hour recording now reports 11 hours in length. Time displays correct though.

I'm not sure what's going on here, so I'll see what it looks like tomorrow.


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## JimSpence

One thing to consider is that last night the original DST went into effect.


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## jsmeeker

JimSpence said:


> One thing to consider is that last night the original DST went into effect.


yup.. makes it all moot now. at least until the fall.


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