# SkyHD pricing finally announced



## eric23

Well, all of the rumours were right. £299 for the box. £10 monthly HD sub. Sky+ functionality is £10, or free if you spend £36 or more on a channel package.

All in all, £46 per month for SkyHD+.

But following on from the "Ready To Jump" thread, how many of you will be taking the plunge - either staying with TiVo AND getting SkyHD+ or leaving TiVo altogether now that the new technology is here?

I only wish I had purchased a lifetime sub for my TiVo. I could have then kept it on a FreeSat service. I might still spend the £200 for a lifetime! Decisions, decisions...


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## GarySargent

Well I've just pre-ordered. Planning on keeping TiVo though.


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## Sneals2000

£299 purchase, £10/month HD sub and no installation charge. Sounds very sensible level of pricing. Now that the Sky+ fee has been waved for premium subscribers, the £10/month for HD probably doesn't seem as bad. The £299 to buy the box doesn't compare too badly to the initial prices of the Sky+ SD box or the original Tivo to be honest.

I don't currently have an HD Ready display at home as I don't think I could live with a Plasma or LCD for SD viewing (I've looked at loads of them), just as I couldn't live with a 100Hz CRT set.

I know that Philips and Samsung both have HD-Ready CRTs in the pipeline - but whether their HD performance (Geometry has been an issue with previous HD Samsung CRTs) and their SD performance (presumably they will be 576/100i 100Hz or 576/50p progressive rather than 576/50i, so that they can run at a similar line rate to HD 1080i) is acceptable isn't clear...

There still doesn't seem to be a perfect display solution...


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## philredman

GarySargent said:


> Well I've just pre-ordered. Planning on keeping TiVo though.


I like the look of this but don't know if I can get it past the Boss. Gary, if I get a SkyHD+ box, will I still be able to hook it up to TiVo to record non HD programs or HD programs I want to view on TiVo through the digisender upstairs?

Thanks

Phil


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## GarySargent

We haven't seen the box yet but assuming it is like Sky+ we should be able to use it with TiVo - though obviously you won't be able to record in High Def, only standard or downscaled high def.

The remote codes may be different to the existing Sky or Sky+ ones, but support for any new IR codes would only take a few days to get sorted.


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## eric23

What I'm planning on doing is converting my current Sky card to FreeSat service, and use my existing Sky STB for FreeSat with TiVo.

My partner will then sign up for a completely new SkyHD+ service, which will allow us to take advantage of the "first 3 months half price" offer on the channel package.

Phil, I think you'll run into problems with TiVo trying to change the channel (if Sky+ is trying to record something). You might be able to hard set Sky+ to only record one of the available streams (??) and then dedicate the SCART output and second receiver to TiVo. But I really have no experience of this, not being a Sky+ customer. There are plenty here that should be able to advise though.


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## JeFurry

It all sounds good. But don't forget that using a TiVo with Sky+ or Sky+HD sounds like a bit of a pain... as I understand it, the Sky+ can record a programme in the background without a problem, but when the TiVo wants to record you have to make sure it can switch the Sky+ to the right channel. Over SCART this isn't a problem, since the TiVo overlays its "OK to change channel?" message on the screen. But if you're watching Sky+HD through HDMI or Component inputs to your TV, then you won't see TiVo's message and it'll either switch the output channel with (apparently) no warning, or fail to switch. In which case you either have to stop watching your Sky+HD recording or programme until TiVo is done, or you end up with a recording of what you were watching on the Sky+HD and not what you wanted.

Or am I wrong about this? Can you force Sky+/Sky+HD to output recordings being watched through one interface and live TV through another (in this case, the SCART for the TiVo) ?


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## randap

2 questions....

1) Can I get just the box without HD subscription, but get BBC HD services FOC (e.g. the World Cup)?

2) If you have the HD subscription, could I cancel my movies subscription, but still get movies HD? Or will you have to double subscribe in order to get movies HD? (likewise for sports).

Either way, I think a subscription is a bit unfair, bearing in mind HD will become the norm. I don't mind paying for the box, but a subscription for little extra benefit is a bit rich.


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## sanderton

1) Probably, but why not just buy a FTA HD box if that's all you want?
2) No, you only het the HD versions of things you have subscribed to in SD.

If you think it's only a little extra benfit, then don't get it!

I have pre-ordered, and, sob, will be dumping TiVo.


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## frogster

eric23 said:


> £299 for the box. £10 monthly HD sub. Sky+ functionality is £10, or free if you spend £36 or more on a channel package.


I don't mind the £299 but I won't pay any monthly fee to watch TV or to record it.
So if I get anything it will be a non-Sky HD sat receiver with hard drive and two tuners. Hopefully someone will make one for the use of all those millions of people who don't want to give money to Sky for nothing.


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## cyril

What's especially annoying is the fact you have to take out a seperate sub for each Sky HD box in each room.
I now have 7 different rooms with TiVos in each, so it would cost me £6000+ to get Sky HD in each room for one year!

That money is going to a 65" 1080p plasma instead


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## sanderton

frogster said:


> I don't mind the £299 but I won't pay any monthly fee to watch TV or to record it.
> So if I get anything it will be a non-Sky HD sat receiver with hard drive and two tuners. Hopefully someone will make one for the use of all those millions of people who don't want to give money to Sky for nothing.


Such a box will cost considerably more than the £299 SkyHD box. Single tuner no hard disk HD sat boxes cost £250-odd.

I'm sure there's a PhD thesis in why some people find a one-off payment acceptable but a per-month one is vioilently reacted against,.


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## leemcg

I've already signed up too.

But SkyHD is only any good in my living room where my new plasma is, so I'm planning on keeping Tivo and the old sky box as well on multiroom.

That will give me the ability to watch two different things at the same time.

I just can't see myself giving up on all of my season passes (and I've never found a problem with recording only one thing at a time on Tivo with all the repeats and +1s). So to start with, I expect I'll still record everything on my Tivo and then duplicate recordings where I know the content is in HD. Oh, and then there's the world cup.

But of course, if I find that it's not too much worse using SkyHD, once it's installed, who knows?

LeeMcG


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## ericd121

sanderton said:


> I have pre-ordered, and, sob, will be dumping TiVo.


Afore ye go...
Have you bought your HD TV yet?

And what make is it?

Yeah, I know, I'm nosy.


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## randap

sanderton said:


> If you think it's only a little extra benfit, then don't get it!


All I'm saying is that currently the SkyHD offering will only give us channels and programmes we can already receive, but rather then Sky actually doing work to downscale them, we will receive them as recorded. Consequently, paying a subscription seems a bit rich.

However, if the SkyHD offering included completely new channels with completely new HD-only content, then a subscription could be justified IMHO.

As for FTA HD receivers, can you get them, and if so from where?


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## 10203

sanderton said:


> I have pre-ordered, and, sob, will be dumping TiVo.


Yipes! 

So to receive Sky One HD, Artsworld HD, National Geographic HD, Discovery HD and Sky Box Office HD I pay my current £18 a month plus an extra £299 for the box then £10 a month plus another £10 a month if I want Sky+ to work..? And once the installation offer ends it would be another £60 up front. Hmmm... anything interesting on Sky Box Office?


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## Bob The Skutter

^I think I heard Humax are doing one aimed at the UK market but I haven't seen it on any sites I visit. http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/28.ghtml here's some HDTV receivers from Europe.
I've signed up for Sky HD, I'd far rather have a Tivo than a Sky Plus box but seen as that doesn't seem very likely and I've been having some troubles with the Tivo lately I think it's time. I think I may let my mam and dad have the Tivo, or I may put it in the bedroom but I'm not sure which yet.


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## iankb

I split my viewing over a perfectly good Sony 32" flatscreen CRT, and two 14" TV's in my study and bedroom linked to my TiVo with video senders. I would either need to spend a small fortune to watch HD, or be tied to my lounge. Can't see me upgrading yet, especially since it's only films at the moment that keep my TiVo topped up, and I've no idea yet what the HD content will be, and whether it will interest me that much.

I suppose once I replace my main TV with an LCD model, I will reconsider. I hate the idea of being tied to my lounge though, especially since I spend more time working in my study.

Now where did I put those plans for HD video streaming over a general-purpose gigabit network?


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## thechachman

Having thought about it long and hard ... we will not be taking Uncle Murdoch up on his offer to part with £300 for the box and another "quid per channel per month" extra for HD ...


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## cyril

sanderton said:


> I have pre-ordered, and, sob, will be dumping TiVo.


I assume you will just watch Sky HD in one room as you need one full Sky HD sub PER BOX!

I am hoping I can get Sky to drop this requirement if I buy a second or third box.
Maybe "buy 2 Sky HD subs get one free" 

If not which method are you going to use to stream HD?


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## thechachman

cyril said:


> I am hoping I can get Sky to drop this requirement if I buy a second or third box.


 Coworker attempted to order three and was told woudl cost £900 for three boxes and another £30 a month on top of his current £50 per month


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## thechachman

sanderton said:


> I have pre-ordered, and, sob, will be dumping TiVo.


 Nine channels of non-exclusive content exceeds the value of your Tivo to you? 

You do know the beeb plans for a max of 3-4 hrs a day total HD programming for the first year right?


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## iankb

LJ said:


> ... it would be another £60 up front.


Plus, presumably, whatever you have to pay for Sky Box Office showings, if there's nothing you want to watch on the other channels.


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## eric23

But more and more channels will be going live on HD over the coming months. You're just focussing on what will be there on launch. Already BBC have come onboard since the previous Sky announcement about launch channels. I just need C4/More4/E4 and Living to come on board, and then pretty much all of my regular viewing will be on HD channels. Since so much of both of these broadcasters' programming is already originally HD (as it comes from the States!), I can't see it being long...

Just think, Six Feet Under and Desperate Housewives -type quality American shows, which already look stunning, soon in proper HD. <drool>


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## Bob The Skutter

randap said:


> 2 questions....
> 
> 1) Can I get just the box without HD subscription, but get BBC HD services FOC (e.g. the World Cup)?
> 
> .


I just noticed this in the story on digital spy 


> BBC has said that its HD coverage of the World Cup will be available to all customers with a Sky HD box as a non-subscription channel."
> Related


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## Automan

Did not really look at the cost....

No option however to order two 

The sub 200Gb of free hard drive space seems a bit limited but I'm sure it will be upgradable.....

Automan.


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## cwaring

I'm trying to put together comparison of the TVD and Sk+HD.

As I wanted to do it properly, I found the details of Sky's Media deptartment as I wanted a proper picture and full specs; if released yet.

However, there was only a standard mailing address and phone number. No email 

So I called the number and the very bored-sounding receptionist told me that there wasn't an email address and all the info was available on their site.

I was so put off that I didn't bother going any further with the conversation.

Not exactly the most forthcoming of companies, Sky 

Don't suppose there's anyone here would know where else I could get this info? I _have_ checked Sky's HD site out and not only is it all in bloody Flash but there's no decent pic or spec. (Not that I could use either as that would be stealing!)


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## eric23

What do you want to know, Carl? I have the infamous Sky Installers powerpoint still on my PC, which contains most of the technical spec.

*Features:*
Supports MPEG2 and MPEG4
Supports Dolby 5.1
2x ISO7816 compatible Smartcard slots
300GB drive (160GB for Sky+ recording, 140GB reserved for future use)

*Connectivity:*
Two satellite inputs
RF In
2x RF Out
2x SCART (one VCR, one TV - both RGB capable)
Component Video Out (Y Pb Pr - RCA phonos)
S-Video Out
HDMI port
Stereo Audio Out (RCA phonos)
Digital Optical Audio Out
RJ11 port (telephone line)
RS232 port
2x USB port (one on front, one on rear)
RJ45 port
S-ATA port


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## cwaring

PM sent.


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## thechachman

eric23 said:


> But more and more channels will be going live on HD over the coming months. You're just focussing on what will be there on launch. Already BBC have come onboard since the previous Sky announcement about launch channels. I just need C4/More4/E4 and Living to come on board, and then pretty much all of my regular viewing will be on HD channels. Since so much of both of these broadcasters' programming is already originally HD (as it comes from the States!), I can't see it being long...
> 
> Just think, Six Feet Under and Desperate Housewives -type quality American shows, which already look stunning, soon in proper HD. <drool>


Sorry Eric, but I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect the likes of Living and such to be in HD anytime in the near future.

One, how many UK channels do you honestly think can afford to HD ?

Two, I would be VERY surprised if Sky and all UK channels were to be granted access to every all current running US shows in high-definition format, especially shows owned by HBO, Showtime and other non ABC/NBC/CBS entities when the UK boxes will have non-HDCP innate functionality from day one. AFAIK in the states the units in use must support it although atm it is disabled.

Three, given the added bandwidth involved in HD, while I used to be more up-to-date with other satellites and such when I had a motorised system, I do not recall any huge buildup in transponder/bandwidth capacity on the satellite slots out past the 40w positioning which bounce shows from the US to Europe either ....


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## eric23

HBO already have Eastern Europe channels. I'm amazed they chose to launch channels there over the UK, but maybe they've been waiting for HD?

The point I was making was: more will come. The launch line-up is just the start. I have no doubt that C4 (and maybe less so, ITV) will launch HD pretty soon. Sure, you're not going to get Bid Up and the Poker Channel on HD, but I really couldn't give a... whether they do or not. Our major broadcasters are all working towards HD.


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## steveroe

Think of the number of channels currently on Sky that currently support Widescreen broadcasts - I'd guess that those channels will be the ones looking towards HD broadcasts.

The others, well they haven't gone widscreen on SD yet ...


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## frogster

sanderton said:


> Such a box will cost considerably more than the £299 SkyHD box. Single tuner no hard disk HD sat boxes cost £250-odd.


Only because there are virtually none on the market and that is because there is currently little demand and no UK content at all. When there is content the prices will drop fast: just look at twin-tuner Freesat recorders, or DVDR/HDD machines. You can pick these up for next to nothing.

There is no reason why an HD machine should have any intrinsic cost much greater than an SD machine. Look at DVD burners compared to CD burners: today the price difference is barely 20%, yet at launch the DVD burners cost 10 times more. The same will apply to HDDVD/BluRay burners when they come out and within 24 months they will be dirt cheap too.



> I'm sure there's a PhD thesis in why some people find a one-off payment acceptable but a per-month one is vioilently reacted against,.


 You don't need a thesis to work out what is bonkers about being asked to pay a monthly fee (in this case possibly 2 or 3 monthly fees) just to _use_ equipment that you have already purchased outright.


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## sanderton

cyril said:


> I assume you will just watch Sky HD in one room as you need one full Sky HD sub PER BOX!
> 
> I am hoping I can get Sky to drop this requirement if I buy a second or third box.
> Maybe "buy 2 Sky HD subs get one free"
> 
> If not which method are you going to use to stream HD?


I will only have one HD set for the foreseeable, so it's not a problem. My networked SD viewing is all Freeview. The sets in my bedroom (17-inch) and the kid's room (28-inch) can stay SD for the foreseable.

The HD content I'll be watching will be live sport, movies and "must watch" stuff like Galactica. All of which I would choose to watch on the big TV in the living room anyway.

I did contemplate takinga mirror subs so TiVo coudl record and network the stuff from Sky, but I can't justift £120 a year for occasionally watching Discovery in the bedroom!

eric - I haven't bought yet. Am torn between the Samsung 50-inch DLP and the Sagem 56-inch DLP. I know 1080 DLP will be out soon, but neither Samsung nor Sagem can tell me when, and I can't wait forever.


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## Glesgie

> You don't need a thesis to work out what is bonkers about being asked to pay a monthly fee (in this case possibly 2 or 3 monthly fees) just to use equipment that you have already purchased outright.


Like TV licence, Road Tax, Council Tax etc. ?


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## sanderton

thechachman said:


> Two, I would be VERY surprised if Sky and all UK channels were to be granted access to every all current running US shows in high-definition format, especially shows owned by HBO, Showtime and other non ABC/NBC/CBS entities when the UK boxes will have non-HDCP innate functionality from day one. AFAIK in the states the units in use must support it although atm it is disabled.
> 
> Three, given the added bandwidth involved in HD, while I used to be more up-to-date with other satellites and such when I had a motorised system, I do not recall any huge buildup in transponder/bandwidth capacity on the satellite slots out past the 40w positioning which bounce shows from the US to Europe either ....


Eh? All US HD is connected via component as standard, which is no different from Sky. The HDMI port will be HDCP protected.

Why would they beam the shows from the US to the UK? The post still works even in this digital age.


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## thechachman

sanderton said:


> Why would they beam the shows from the US to the UK? The post still works even in this digital age.


 Was thinking more of the live content which comes across ... NBC/CBS/ABC/ESPN all own transponder sets which get used to feed content to their European operations and syndicates. David Letterman & SNL (first two that come to mind) as well of course as all sports are live feeds ...


sanderton said:


> Eh? All US HD is connected via component as standard, which is no different from Sky. The HDMI port will be HDCP protected


 While I am probably now dangerously close to the proverbial 'well I read it on a forum someplace so it must be true ' ... I swear I read elsewhere that if you HD was via HDMI and the component out would be SD only (shrug)

*edit* -- Depending upon one's sporting tastes, this site may make your mouth water even further, that is if my point about transatlantic bandwidth being sufficient to permit it being bounced. As per that site Real Madrid vs. Deportivo is on Sunday noon US time in 1080i 

*edit2* -- Hmmmm ... there is supposed to be SO MUCH dark fibre optic cable that got put down all those years ago before Worldcom blew up, maybe HD leverage of that?


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## frogster

Glesgie said:


> Like TV licence, Road Tax, Council Tax etc. ?


These are taxes imposed by law, not commercial fees for using equipment.
If you don't understand the difference then maybe you should do some research.


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## sanderton

Glesgie said:


> Like TV licence, Road Tax, Council Tax etc. ?


No, more like mobile phones, ADSL routers, cable TV boxes - all hardwrae you own that won't do much without paying a monthly fee.


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## cwaring

Technically I don't own either of my STBs 

Which reminds me, where is our resident pedant, mrtickle? He hasn't been on here in ages.


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## eric23

He's not been the same since he lost the hat.


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## cwaring

I seem to recall something about him having been ill. I could be wrong, though. I hope he's okay.

Edited to add:

Okay. I think I might be losing it, whatever it is. I've just checked the members list and it states he was last on here on 03-15-2006. 15th of this month? I must have missed him 

Just found his last posting.



eric23 said:


> He's not been the same since he lost the hat.


Seems that it's not just his hate he's lost  It's probably 'cos he's removed his piccy that I missed him


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## kitschcamp

thechachman said:


> One, how many UK channels do you honestly think can afford to HD ?


Especially remembering how long it took for even some of the major channels to offer 16:9...


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## kitschcamp

I know I won't be subscribing, for two main reasons:

1. I don't subscribe to movies or sports, therefore most of the content isn't going to be of interest at the moment, especially not to justify an extra £10 a month.
2. After remembering the farcical installations and "repairs" by Sky's technicians over the years, I won't subscribe to a service that requires them to do it.

I will, however, think about buying a FTA box for BBC, ITV and possibly later C4 and C5 programs. A lot depends on our new home and what we can get away with. I won't pay £10 a month to pay for channels that are FTA.


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## frogster

sanderton said:


> No, more like mobile phones, ADSL routers, cable TV boxes - all hardwrae you own that won't do much without paying a monthly fee.


Routers of course will work without any monthly fee. Cable TV boxes are often rented or loaned rather than bought. If you choose the right phone network you need pay no monthly fee.

And that said, in all the cases you mention (and indeed in all cases except the Sky+) the payment is for an extra service that is provided on an on-going basis, that costs money to provide and that is not available unless one pays or DIY's it.
None of which applies to the Sky+ recording function as it involves no notion of service provision at all: the function is in the box as purchased and if it wasn't deliberately slugged by Sky it would just work out of the box.

In that respect the Sky+ fee is exactly like the payment made to hoodlums to "insure'" that your business or house doesn't burn down.


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## groovyclam

sanderton:

re: Samsung 50-inch DLP and the Sagem 56-inch DLP

I'm getting a bit off-topic but also noticed in a quick scan of the TVs in Currys that the Samsung DLP looked an acceptable alternative to CRT. However I noticed that if I positioned my head too high or low relative to the screen that the picture started "fading" from view. There wasn't much leeway there. Is this a foible of DLP ?

Any thoughts on why you are also considering the Sagem ?


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## Automan

Perhaps the SciFi channel will go 16:9 and then switch to HD after their +1 channel starts in a few days....

What I am worried about is the quality of picture and sound from this new box....

Why?
So many outputs - Risk of signal leak and design compromise to provide all formats
Brand name - Still at least its not Amstrad badged 
Possible compatibility problems with some HDMI TV sets.

I imagine when they call to arrange install they will try and persuade you to have your exisiting STB relocated to another room thus making more $$$$ for Sky.

I shall of course hold out for an Octo LNB as I already use five feeds. One from my original Sky dish and four from my new one.

May is such a long way away.....


Automan.


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## 10203

Automan said:


> May is such a long way away.....


Tell me about it - I still have another *two whole weeks* to wait for my new car...   

So what exactly is shown on "Sky Box Office" - it doesn't seem to have its own channel listing - is it PPV things like boxing matches?


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## Sneals2000

frogster said:


> Only because there are virtually none on the market and that is because there is currently little demand and no UK content at all. When there is content the prices will drop fast: just look at twin-tuner Freesat recorders, or DVDR/HDD machines. You can pick these up for next to nothing.
> 
> There is no reason why an HD machine should have any intrinsic cost much greater than an SD machine. Look at DVD burners compared to CD burners: today the price difference is barely 20%, yet at launch the DVD burners cost 10 times more. The same will apply to HDDVD/BluRay burners when they come out and within 24 months they will be dirt cheap too.
> 
> You don't need a thesis to work out what is bonkers about being asked to pay a monthly fee (in this case possibly 2 or 3 monthly fees) just to _use_ equipment that you have already purchased outright.


In the long run, you're right. However given the current shortage of MPEG4 chipsets, it is likely that HD MPEG4 boxes (as required for most European HD broadcasts likely to launch, and some US services) will command a premium over SD and HD MPEG2 boxes for at least a short while.

As for the Sky+ subscription - doesn't this partially go to the manufacturer of the box in return for subsidising the manufacturing cost? ISTR that Pace moved to this model when Sky reduced the price of the standard Sky+ box? It is a bit like mobile phones - you pay less for the box when you buy it, but you subsidise the manufacturing by paying a monthly line rental.

(For that matter it is a bit like Tivo, though without the life-time option, which they are ditching in the US ISTR...)


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## Sneals2000

thechachman said:


> Sorry Eric, but I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect the likes of Living and such to be in HD anytime in the near future.
> 
> One, how many UK channels do you honestly think can afford to HD ?


I guess it depends on whether they produce their own material or acquire, and whether the acquisitions are in HD. If you are running a simple operation playing out bought in material, and that material is available in HD, then upgrading your transmission and uplink facilities might not be commercially prohibitive. E4, Hallmark etc. might be able to do this if HD starts to become popular. I suspect Hallmark is a bit niche - but it has very strong SD viewing figures.

However the channels that show a lot of UK acquisitions or productions commissioned for the channel will have less incentive - as HD production is more expensive.



> Two, I would be VERY surprised if Sky and all UK channels were to be granted access to every all current running US shows in high-definition format, especially shows owned by HBO, Showtime and other non ABC/NBC/CBS entities when the UK boxes will have non-HDCP innate functionality from day one. AFAIK in the states the units in use must support it although atm it is disabled.


The broadcasters could chose to enable it - so if HBO launched their own channel they could force the component outputs to be down-ressed and the HD to only output via the HDMI with HDCP.

The HDCP is likely to be permanently enabled on the HDMI outputs - it is just the down-ressing of the component HD outputs that might not be permanently enabled - and instead it will be up to broadcasters to trigger it.

However in the US almost all HD broadcasts are output from set top boxes via component - so HBO, Showtime etc. are all available in analogue component HD in their native territories... In fact in some areas they are available in digital MPEG2 un-encrypted, from the output of cable boxes (via Firewire - though some have 5C copy protection) or satellite boxes modified for USB2 or Firewire output.

I suspect that HD component output (and the "analogue hole") is less of an issue than many make out. The bigger issue is a "digital hole" - which they have in the US, but we don't have in Europe.



> Three, given the added bandwidth involved in HD, while I used to be more up-to-date with other satellites and such when I had a motorised system, I do not recall any huge buildup in transponder/bandwidth capacity on the satellite slots out past the 40w positioning which bounce shows from the US to Europe either ....


These days it is just as likely that fibre would be used for broadcasters to get material across the Atlantic. Satellite links are increasinly the province of live links from remote locations (News and Outside Broadcasts from unusual locations), and for broadcast to home. Linking broadcast centres, and backhauling from regular OB locations (like football stadia etc.) is increasingly using fibre. (Sky get their HD football back to their broadcast centre via Fibre. The BBC use fibre to get material from New York and Washington to London etc.)

Fibre also allows higher quality links as there is less of a bandwith issue - you can't carry an uncompressed SD signal via a conventional satellite transponder - but you can carry multiple uncompressed SD services easily via fibre.


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## poissony

randap said:


> As for FTA HD receivers, can you get them, and if so from where?


Humax HDCI2000 is out at the end of March and can be bought for £300:

http://www.247electrical.co.uk/epages/twentyfourseven.storefront/EN/Product/HUMHDCI2000?SOURCE=AW

http://www.edirectory.co.uk/pf/page...IFIGQ_+humax+hdci2000+high+definition&cid=880

More info here:

http://www.humaxdigital.com/global/products/HDCI-2000.asp


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## frogster

Sneals2000 said:


> However given the current shortage of MPEG4 chipsets, it is likely that HD MPEG4 boxes (as required for most European HD broadcasts likely to launch, and some US services) will command a premium over SD and HD MPEG2 boxes for at least a short while.


That's true, though it should only be a short while. We also shouldn't forget that the prices Sky set often bear no relation whatsoever to the actual cost of the equipment, though the price for the SkyHD box without a viewing sub (£399) is probably about right. Any FTA manufacturer of course has to charge in relation to what the boxes actually cost or he would go bust.



> As for the Sky+ subscription - doesn't this partially go to the manufacturer of the box in return for subsidising the manufacturing cost? ISTR that Pace moved to this model when Sky reduced the price of the standard Sky+ box? It is a bit like mobile phones - you pay less for the box when you buy it, but you subsidise the manufacturing by paying a monthly line rental.


There was such an arrangement with Pace but AFAIK this expired quite some time ago. Around about the time that Sky started waiving the Sky+ fee for premium package subscribers. AFAIK no such arrangement has ever been made public for the other two Sky+ makers.

The current full list price for the Sky+ and SkyHD boxes would seem to be about what they are worth and those paying those prices apparently aren't getting any subsidy and so should not expect to have to pay any monthly fee in compensation. The situation might be different for those getting a cheaper box.

As I mentioned previously, if you choose well you need pay no monthly mobile fee and any such arrangement should always be optional. It certainly isn't optional for the Sky+ or SkyHD, regardless of what purchase price was paid.


----------



## 6022tivo

I have not really read the term and things for the HD service, but understand the costs of the box and the extra £10...

So the best thing to do for myself (Cutrrently NOT a Sky subscriber). Would be to sign up the the SKY+ Free BOX deal (min 12 months). After installation, buy the Sky HD box and then at least I can sell the SKY+ box and make a bit of money back?? 

I am correct in thinking this arn't I??


----------



## GarySargent

Eric do both TV and VCR SCART's output in RGB mode? Or is it the same as normal STB's which allow RGB passthrough but only output composite on the VCR SCART?


----------



## sanderton

groovyclam said:


> sanderton:
> 
> re: Samsung 50-inch DLP and the Sagem 56-inch DLP
> 
> I'm getting a bit off-topic but also noticed in a quick scan of the TVs in Currys that the Samsung DLP looked an acceptable alternative to CRT. However I noticed that if I positioned my head too high or low relative to the screen that the picture started "fading" from view. There wasn't much leeway there. Is this a foible of DLP ?
> 
> Any thoughts on why you are also considering the Sagem ?


Yes, DLP does seem to have a fairly narrow vertival range. In practice not an issue.

The Sagem is 6 inches bigger!


----------



## eric23

Gary, it seems it's the same as current STBs. Just going by the Installers powerpoint, which states:


> TV SCART (composite video out, RGB out)
> VCR SCART (composite video in/out, RGB in)


----------



## eric23

6022tivo, I imagine your contract will be to keep your Sky+ box connected and in use for 12 months. In fact, I know you have to sign up to 12 months for sure. If you were to terminate the Sky+ sub early, you'd probably have to pay the remaining charges for the year.

Just buy the HD+ box! With this pre-order thing, it's good value. The box itself is cheap - £299 (that is cheap at the moment for MPEG4 decoding boxes - not forgetting the fact that it contains a 300GB drive) and installation is free at the moment. It will be reverting to a £60 installation fee in May.

If it makes you feel better, find something else to sell on eBay. Like your grandmother.


----------



## kitschcamp

Does it *require* a telephone connection? I remember reading something about it a long while back, but for the life of me I can't find it now.


----------



## 10203

Yup, phone line needed: "Professional installation and fixed telephone line connection for 12 months required." - from here.


----------



## kitschcamp

Well that's that decided. I doubt I'll be able to run a telephone extension cable that long *cough*


----------



## 10203

"I'd like to order some sky hooks please..."


----------



## kitschcamp

Or a real magic VoIP adapter that allows modems to work...?


----------



## 10203

Or a friendly Swedish telco that lets you set a UK CLIP?


----------



## eric23

<Hands Stephen some Benylin> You know, it's just a formality of the contract. The Sky Police don't actually come round to check.


----------



## frogster

6022tivo said:


> So the best thing to do for myself (Cutrrently NOT a Sky subscriber). Would be to sign up the the SKY+ Free BOX deal (min 12 months). After installation, buy the Sky HD box and then at least I can sell the SKY+ box and make a bit of money back??


Best in what sense? For the money you might get back for the Sky+? Yes, I suppose so, but then you wouldn't qualify for whatever special offer Sky may come up with for the HDbox for new susbscribers. They generally do much better deals for new customers than for existing ones.


----------



## frogster

kitschcamp said:


> Does it *require* a telephone connection?


Just like with all Sky boxes this "requirement" is contractual, not technical. As long as you don't have multiroom then at worst, as with the Sky+, you would only have to run an extension cable to activate the thing in the first place (though of course you could just cart it round to some other house which has a phone socket near the dish coax point). Or you could buy a DECT phone extender.


----------



## MikeMcr

frogster said:


> Or you could buy a DECT phone extender.


I have a DECT phone but I didn't know you could get extenders to work as normal phone sockets, if that is what you mean? Where can you get them? Maplin have Wireless Phone Extenders (over power cables) but the limitations listed seem to make them useless.


----------



## sjp

i think stephens requirement for an extension cable might be a bit on the long side... like a thousand miles or so


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

thechachman said:


> Sorry Eric, but I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect the likes of Living and such to be in HD anytime in the near future.
> 
> One, how many UK channels do you honestly think can afford to HD ?
> 
> Two, I would be VERY surprised if Sky and all UK channels were to be granted access to every all current running US shows in high-definition format, especially shows owned by HBO, Showtime and other non ABC/NBC/CBS entities when the UK boxes will have non-HDCP innate functionality from day one. AFAIK in the states the units in use must support it although atm it is disabled.
> 
> Three, given the added bandwidth involved in HD, while I used to be more up-to-date with other satellites and such when I had a motorised system, I do not recall any huge buildup in transponder/bandwidth capacity on the satellite slots out past the 40w positioning which bounce shows from the US to Europe either ....


Well. The studios who sell films to Sky are evidently satisfied as there's HD movie channels. Given that the studios & networks are pretty much all the same companies, it's not that much of a worry.

As for channels who can afford to be HD, it's more a case of who can afford not to be as far as the value of their advertising space goes. I expect C4 to be the first, after the beeb.

Lastly...HD TV shows are not delivered to UK broadcasters over satellite unless there is a compelling reason due to time! They come in on tapes, on a plane.


----------



## Automan

You will have to be very quick to sign up for normal then HD.

I understand the Sky HD Website offer ends midnight April 5.

Automan.


6022tivo said:


> I have not really read the term and things for the HD service, but understand the costs of the box and the extra £10...
> 
> So the best thing to do for myself (Cutrrently NOT a Sky subscriber). Would be to sign up the the SKY+ Free BOX deal (min 12 months). After installation, buy the Sky HD box and then at least I can sell the SKY+ box and make a bit of money back??
> 
> I am correct in thinking this arn't I??


----------



## frogster

MikeMcr said:


> I have a DECT phone but I didn't know you could get extenders to work as normal phone sockets, if that is what you mean? Where can you get them?


AFAIK Argos have one that works with Sky boxes.


----------



## frogster

sjp said:


> i think stephens requirement for an extension cable might be a bit on the long side... like a thousand miles or so


For use outside the UK you can activate the Sky+ box and card from anywhere in the UK with a Sky dish and a phone line. You can even do it over VOIP. Then take it where you like.
I doubt that the HD box will be any different, unless Sky are completely bonkers.


----------



## Automan

I also not in the infamous power point presentation that a callback MUST be made during install.

No doubt to make sure the box is not in Spain 

Automan.


----------



## iankb

I thought that the whole idea of these initial one-year contracts was that they downloaded statistics from your box and, in the case of multi-room contracts, checked that the 'phone numbers were the same. I thought that, if they didn't get their statistics, they would disable your account.


----------



## Sneals2000

iankb said:


> I thought that the whole idea of these initial one-year contracts was that they downloaded statistics from your box and, in the case of multi-room contracts, checked that the 'phone numbers were the same. I thought that, if they didn't get their statistics, they would disable your account.


Originally, the Sky box was subsidised by BIB (British Interactive Broadcasting - a joint venture between Matsu****a, HSBC and a few others) - to ensure you connected your box to the phone line for an interactive return channel for their "Open" interactive service (which included HSBC TV banking). In return for a £180ish subsidy on the box, you agreed to 1 year phone connection to allow you to access these services - many of which used slightly premium rate numbers to generate some income on the phone access (it was usually local call rates + a small amount extra a minute).

This subsidy continued when Sky bought out BIB, and rebranded Open as Sky Active ISTR.

I didn't know that the subsidy included a clause that allowed them to derive viewing stats from your box - that may have been introduced after BIB ceased? My Sky box (non Sky+) certainly has no requirement to be connected to the phone line, and has been disconnected on a number of occasions for lengthy periods. The only other use for the phone line is for PPV ISTR - but the box will allow you to watch a number of PPV events between ring-backs. (If it can't ring-back after a certain number have been viewed it will stop you viewing any further PPV material)

I don't know what the situation is for current Sky and Sky+ subscriptions - but AIUI the phone line requirement is not a permanent one - and is tied to the purchase of the box not the subscription. It would be possible to buy a second hand box and not have to connect it to the phone line I believe.

(It is, or was, possible - but very difficult - to get a Sky+ subscription independently of a Sky programme subscription - allowing you to use Sky+ with a FTV card just paying the £10/month Sky+ sub)

The multi-room situation is different - as the phone line is used, in this case, to confirm that the various receivers in a multi-room installation are physically connected to the same phone line (via Caller ID on a Sky triggered ring back) to ensure the mirror-ed subs aren't being used to share viewing in different homes.

I know of people who have disconnected a multi-room receiver from the phone line, because it has been inconvenient to run a phone line to a specific position, and they've received letters from Sky informing them that they will need to pay a full subscription for their second reeceiver if they don't re-connect it.

I guess the Sky+ HD system may have different terms and conditions - and eventually they may replace a phone connection with a broadband connection (as more and more people ditch land lines in favour of mobiles or VOIP) and then use IP addresses as a form of location?


----------



## Sneals2000

eric23 said:


> Gary, it seems it's the same as current STBs. Just going by the Installers powerpoint, which states:


Yep - you'd expect it to be RGB in on the VCR SCART and RGB out on the TV SCART to allow for it to be used as a "loop through" device for displays with a single RGB SCART.

SCART is uni-directional in RGB terms (you have either an RGB input OR an RGB output on a single connection), whereas in Composite terms it is bi-directional (you have both composite input AND output on the same connector)

If you were to offer RGB output on the VCR SCART you'd not also be able to offer RGB input on the same connector, so wouldn't be able to offer loop-through (which a lot of people use to connect their DVD players to their TV through their Sky box) unless they were able to switch the VCR SCART between RGB input and output - which would be quite a significant engineering change (and another installation option to get wrong...)


----------



## Sneals2000

Is the Sky + HD available without a sub? I have seen mention of £399 without a sub, and £299 with? Presumably without the sub, you don't have the 12 month phone requirement, and could use the box as a FTA or FTV (with Freesat card?) box without the Sky+ facilities? 

You could regard the £100 difference as the "phone line subsidy" in this case?

I wonder if you would be able to pay the £10/month for Sky+ functionality and/or subscribe at a later date (as if you had bought the box second hand) and whether that would still require a 12 month phone connection - or whether the 12 month issue is purely to save the £100 cost difference between a subbed and non-subbed box?


----------



## Sneals2000

kitschcamp said:


> Or a real magic VoIP adapter that allows modems to work...?


Don't some VOIP adaptors have a "G711 FAX passthrough" mode - does anyone know if this might offer a modem solution?


----------



## sanderton

Sneals2000 said:


> Is the Sky + HD available without a sub? I have seen mention of £399 without a sub, and £299 with? Presumably without the sub, you don't have the 12 month phone requirement, and could use the box as a FTA or FTV (with Freesat card?) box without the Sky+ facilities?
> 
> You could regard the £100 difference as the "phone line subsidy" in this case?
> 
> I wonder if you would be able to pay the £10/month for Sky+ functionality and/or subscribe at a later date (as if you had bought the box second hand) and whether that would still require a 12 month phone connection - or whether the 12 month issue is purely to save the £100 cost difference between a subbed and non-subbed box?


It's £299 + £120 a year and free installation, or £399 + £60 installation and no sub.

The original no-brainer.


----------



## kitschcamp

I have one that offers fax passthrough, but I haven't tried to make it work with a pure modem. I didn't even think it'd work, but I'd be delighted to be told I'm wrong!


----------



## Sneals2000

kitschcamp said:


> I have one that offers fax passthrough, but I haven't tried to make it work with a pure modem. I didn't even think it'd work, but I'd be delighted to be told I'm wrong!


I have dim recollections that Faxes use the same data standard as one of the modem standards (hence Fax modem cards) - but I don't know if there is more to it than this...


----------



## Heuer

I have two Sky boxes but I refused to allow them to monitor my viewing habits on principle. I therefore paid for a new Sky box and dish to be installed and subcribed to one of the basic packages and there was thus no requirement to have a phone line. Recently I bought a second box off eBay and use it with a FTA card for basic channels.

A friend of mine who has been a Sky subscriber for 10 years recently upgraded to Sky+ but disconnected the phone line as he was having the Home Theatre room re-done. Sky were straight on his case with threatening letters. He phoned them explained the situation was temporary but they were unrelenting. Told them he was cancelling his sub immediately and would send the box back. He was called back within minutes and told they valued his custom and to ignore the letter! He still refused and is waiting a call from 'Team 2' who tend to bribe you with free Pizza for a month or 6 months free viewing.


----------



## sanderton

I don't belive that the phone line is used to monitor your viewing habits, I think that's an urban myth.


----------



## Sneals2000

sanderton said:


> I don't belive that the phone line is used to monitor your viewing habits, I think that's an urban myth.


Sky DO have software that allows them to analyse what was recorded/replayed on Sky+ boxes (just as Tivo do) and also what channels a Sky box was tuned to. They also have software that monitors "Press Red" button usage - to allow them to measure how often interactive apps are used. I believe Sky reserve the right to sell this data - in an anonymous form - commercially.

However this is not the same as viewing figures (as you don't know how many people, if any, are watching a Sky box, just what it is tuned to).

I would be surprised if all boxes kept full figures of every channel change - but it wouldn't surprise me if some selective monitoring was done. (Either with a small sample of boxes, or just certain programmes/channels flagged for monitoring)


----------



## kitschcamp

Sneals2000 said:


> Don't some VOIP adaptors have a "G711 FAX passthrough" mode - does anyone know if this might offer a modem solution?


Further reading suggests not. The best hope is PCMA or PCMU and keeping your fingers crossed that you get a good trouble free and lag free internet connection... The G711 only works for fax.


----------



## frogster

sanderton said:


> It's £299 + £120 a year and free installation, or £399 + £60 installation and no sub.
> The original no-brainer.


Not quite. You are forgetting the viewing sub. Those without a viewing sub don't qualify for the £299 price. A viewing sub will cost at least £240 per year for anything worthwhile.

There are several parts to Sky HD:

1) The box
2) The installation
3) The viewing subscription
4) The HD subscription
5) The recording subscription.

In fact it's hard to imagine anything else that they could possibly charge extra for, though some of them are waived for those who pay the top viewing sub.


----------



## frogster

Sneals2000 said:


> I didn't know that the subsidy included a clause that allowed them to derive viewing stats from your box ...


The subsidy doesn't. The viewing contracts do.
It is generally supposed that Sky don't actually do this though there is nothing stopping them (if you leave the phone plugged in).

As you suspect, the main reason for the phone connection (outside of the multiroom security requirement of course) is so that people will be able to buy things (PPV, gambling, games) on a whim.


----------



## thechachman

frogster said:


> In fact it's hard to imagine anything else that they could possibly charge extra for, though some of them are waived for those who pay the top viewing sub.


 Waiting for the inevitable 'per keypress' charge for using a remote


----------



## frogster

Just to clarify:

1) The Sky+ now needs a phone connection to be activated, regardless of where you buy it or who installs it. This isn't made clear anywhere on or in the box.

2) The T&Cs require the phone connection for one year if Sky install the Sky+ box. In practice I have never known this to be checked, though Heuer seems to know otherwise.

3) The regular Sky box, if provided free by Sky, should either be left connected to the phone or an extra £25 should be paid. I have never known this to be checked.

4) The £150 Freesat box requires no phone connection.

5) The HD box appears to have the same restrictions as the Sky+.

6) Apparently Sky digibox modems will work over a good VOIP connection. So any VOIP adapter with an RJ11 socket for a phone should work with a digibox modem. I see no reason why the HD box should be any different.

7)You can have just the Sky+ recording functions without a viewing sub for £10 p/m. The phone connection is required but not checked.

8)The phone connection is checked regularly for multiroom subs and warning notices are issued after a few weeks.


----------



## Heuer

With the Sky+ box they can also disable your recordings after a certain time or if you unsubscribe from a particular channel package.

All the Sky boxes 'phone home' at intervals hence they know if you have unplugged. Why police it so heavily if they are not getting something in return?


----------



## sanderton

frogster said:


> The subsidy doesn't. The viewing contracts do.
> It is generally supposed that Sky don't actually do this though there is nothing stopping them (if you leave the phone plugged in)..


Just had a look through the contract (it's on sky.com as a PDF) and can't see anything to that effect?


----------



## Sneals2000

Heuer said:


> With the Sky+ box they can also disable your recordings after a certain time or if you unsubscribe from a particular channel package.


They don't "disable" your recording when you unsubscribe from a package. The way Sky+ works is that the recording made to the hard drive is still encrypted with VideoGuard. It isn't de-crypted until you playback. If your subscription doesn't allow you to watch the channel live it won't be able to decrypt a recording either.


----------



## Heuer

So that would be disable then?


----------



## frogster

Heuer said:


> All the Sky boxes 'phone home' at intervals hence they know if you have unplugged. Why police it so heavily if they are not getting something in return?


As I mentioned earlier, AFAIK they don't police the connection at all, except for multiroom subs.


----------



## Sneals2000

Heuer said:


> So that would be disable then?


Semantically I thought it was a bit different. It isn't a case that the Sky + actively stops you watching a recording when you cease subscribing, rather your subscription / viewing card / CAM does, by dint of the mechanism for watching recordings being identical to watching live TV...

I took "disable" to imply that a watchable recording existed on the drive, but the Sky+ box stopped you replaying it.


----------



## frogster

sanderton said:


> Just had a look through the contract (it's on sky.com as a PDF) and can't see anything to that effect?


Have they changed them _again_? The last time I read a contract there certainly was a mention of this. Something along the lines of "if the digibox is connected to the phone we may use it to send data and you authorise us to do so". Above all for PPV data, I suppose.


----------



## sanderton

It says that, but doesn't say what data. I don't take that as authorising carte-blanche sending of personal data, but authorising the sending of data when needed under the other clauses of the contract. I would expect a company like Sky to have a much more fireproof cluase if they wanted to use your personal data without attracting legal action!


----------



## ericd121

frogster said:


> There are several parts to Sky HD:
> 
> 1) The box
> 2) The installation
> 3) The viewing subscription
> 4) The HD subscription
> 5) The recording subscription.


Bringing the thread back to pricing, I've been comparing my current triple play (*Television, Telephone, t'Internet*) set-up with the two options for Hi-Def.

Currently, each month I'm paying 
*£22* for 2Mb ADSL to Plusnet, 
*£11* to BT for a phone I don't use but need for the ADSL and 
nowt for my FreeView.
*Total £33 per month.*

If I had access to TeleWest, I could have the Freedom Bundle for 
*£35.00* which consists of 
broadband complete (4MB), 
Starter TV (equivalent channels to FreeView) and 
Talk Weekends - a phone I wouldn't use but TeleWest insist I take with the TV package.
Add to that 
*£15* for the TVDrive - HI-Def receiver and recorder.
*Total £50 per month.* An increase on my current monthly spend of *£17*.

The Sky options, as listed by frogster above.
The box - Purchase price *£299*
The installation - Nothing
*£15* per month - The viewing subscription
*£10* per month - The HD subscription
*£10* per month - The recording subscription.
*Total £35 per month.*

Add to that the *£33* per month for ADSL to Plusnet, and to BT for the phone.

*Total £68 per month.* An increase on my current monthly spend of *£35*.

So, anyone in a TeleWest area who wished to go Hi-Def could save themselves *£18* every month, not to mention a one-off fee of £299 by declining Sky's deadly embrace.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

but also succumbing to the horrors of Cable customer service, and dubious levels of content from Sky...unless anyone's seen statements like "Sky Sports HD will be carried on Telewest" ?
Sky are also set to offer some kind of broadband service from their box, somehow...no idea how the upstream will work. I'm also pretty excited by the SMS recording doohickey.


----------



## Sneals2000

Yep - I think it would be wise to see how many HD channels appear on Telewest before assuming it will be comparable to Sky.

It may be that monopoly issues mean that Sky have to allow their HD Sport and Movie channels to be carried via Telewest - though they may use the MPEG4 vs MPEG2 argument I guess...


----------



## Automan

I can't imagine the current Sky box or Sky+ box is smart enough to store for a month a viewers activity and transmit it.

I think its limit is your viewing card pin and maybe box office charges.

Re using VOIP for the call. I imagine you can but my VOIP provider charges for 0800 calls and as I have multiroom so I'm sure Sky would be on as my boxes would be calling from the wrong number.

My ADSL / VOIP FritzBoxFON is programmed to route all 0800 number via BT and block (report engaged) all numbers Amstrad Emailers try to dial (no adverts or daily email calls).

Automan.


----------



## sanderton

ericd121 said:


> So, anyone in a TeleWest area who wished to go Hi-Def could save themselves *£18* every month, not to mention a one-off fee of £299 by declining Sky's deadly embrace.


Like for like though Eric!

Telewest have so far confirmed the BBC trial, plus a downloading service which as far as I can gather has about two films on it. That's it.

Sky has the BBC trial, Sky One HD, Sky Sports HD, Sky Movies 9 HD, Sky Movies 10 HD, Discovery HD, National Geographic HD, Artsworld HD and Sky Box office.

Plus of course regular Sky has more channels than Telewest anyway - and that's before any channels Telewst have to remove to fit in their high bandwidth MPEG-2 HD channels onto their bandwidth limited cables.


----------



## cwaring

sanderton said:


> Telewest have so far confirmed the BBC trial, plus a downloading service which as far as I can gather has about two films on it. That's it.


Technically it's VOD, not 'downloading'.

Yes, they have a couple of series and one film ("Sin City", I believe) on their Teleport service available in HD.



> Sky has the BBC trial, Sky One HD, Sky Sports HD, Sky Movies 9 HD, Sky Movies 10 HD, Discovery HD, National Geographic HD, Artsworld HD and Sky Box office.


NTL:Telewest could also have those channels (barring SBO of course); if Sky let them!



> Plus of course regular Sky has more channels than Telewest anyway


It doesn't have many more _popular_ channels. (Personally I'd like Sky2 and FX but that's about it!)



> and that's before any channels Telewst have to remove to fit in their high bandwidth MPEG-2 HD channels onto their bandwidth limited cables.


As I understand it, when TW had finally upgraded all areas to digital and can therefore shut-down its analogue service, there will be more than enough capacity for HD channels. Just going by what I've read on DS. It's not something I can speak on with any kind of authority


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

Telewest don't carry FX? Dealbreaker! No Family Guy or The Wire! boo!


----------



## ericd121

sanderton said:


> Like for like though Eric!


Point taken.

Though of the channels mentioned, I'd only be interested in Sky Sports HD.

IF it were available (and TW and Sky charged the same premium as they do now) the figures would now be 
TeleWest £50 as above plus £22 for Sky Sports HD
Total £72 per month

Sky £68 as above plus £19 for Sky Sports HD
Total £87 per month. Now only a difference of £15 per month.

Like Carl, I'm only interested in the popular channels;
I'd be happy with less 'choice' if it meant quality progs in Hi-Def.


----------



## cwaring

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> Telewest don't carry FX? Dealbreaker! No Family Guy or The Wire! boo!


Yeah. No "JAG"  "NCIS" is coming to five though and I'll be able to record both it _and_ "Casualty" on my TVDrive


----------



## sanderton

cwaring said:


> Technically it's VOD, not 'downloading'.
> 
> Yes, they have a couple of series and one film ("Sin City", I believe) on their Teleport service available in HD.
> 
> NTL:Telewest could also have those channels (barring SBO of course); if Sky let them!


My understanding is that Sky MUST let Telewest have any channels at a comemrcial rate if asked?

I thought the film(s) dowloaded to the hard disk rather than streamed? Obviusly I don't have one so will stand corrected.


----------



## sanderton

Looks like TiVo gets a stay of execution. A US-based friend of mine who has become dependent on the TiVo-recorded programmes I send him over the net thanks to undiscussable software has decided it's worthwhile for him to pay for multiroom on my Sky sub, so I can keep TiVo recording rugby matches for him!


----------



## eric23

And for those of us who live in an NTL area, or don't even have the joy of a dug-up, waterlogged pavement at all, the options are...

Sky


----------



## cwaring

sanderton said:


> My understanding is that Sky MUST let Telewest have any channels at a comemrcial rate if asked?


Who decides what that rate is, if not Sky, and why have they not let them have Sky2/3 then?



> I thought the film(s) dowloaded to the hard disk rather than streamed? Obviusly I don't have one so will stand corrected.


Only the new TV Drive has a hard drive but the Teleport service is available to all customers. Programmes are stored at head-end and streamed.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

sanderton said:


> Looks like TiVo gets a stay of execution. A US-based friend of mine who has become dependent on the TiVo-recorded programmes I send him over the net thanks to undiscussable software has decided it's worthwhile for him to pay for multiroom on my Sky sub, so I can keep TiVo recording rugby matches for him!


Quite a while ago my friend at Sky told me that there was going to be provision for squirting out files from the USB2 port onto a portable device or PC. I'm thinking these plans were shelved for obvious DRM reasons. Can't you record the matches on your numerous MCE devices though? I understand you perhaps don't want to impinge on whatever your HD box might be up to of course....


----------



## Sneals2000

Automan said:


> I can't imagine the current Sky box or Sky+ box is smart enough to store for a month a viewers activity and transmit it.
> 
> I think its limit is your viewing card pin and maybe box office charges.


Everything I have read in the broadcast press implies it is more than that. Obviously the Box Office stuff is stored until a receiver ring back to Sky takes place. It may be that only some receivers are reporting their viewing habits - and it may be that they do it more frequently than monthly. They may also only remember certain aspects of viewing not everything.

Certainly there is red button activity logging on at least some receivers - as there are Red button figures for DSat - though not for DCab and DTT.



> Re using VOIP for the call. I imagine you can but my VOIP provider charges for 0800 calls and as I have multiroom so I'm sure Sky would be on as my boxes would be calling from the wrong number.


I think the problem with VOIP is also that the audio is processed through a codec optimised for speech, not V90 modem tones, and the Sky modem is less than efficient at dropping down to lower baud rates, and instead fails on what it sees as a poor line.

Apparently VONAGE have a system (which works with Tivo?) that allows you to send a *99 prefix to their VOIP adaptors which disables echo cancellation which improves modem performance. Unfortunately Sky boxes can't use * as a dialling prefix...



> My ADSL / VOIP FritzBoxFON is programmed to route all 0800 number via BT and block (report engaged) all numbers Amstrad Emailers try to dial (no adverts or daily email calls).
> 
> Automan.


I suspect the e-mailer will work at lower baud rates than the Sky box (on the numbers it does dial, if any)


----------



## frogster

sanderton said:


> It says that, but doesn't say what data. I don't take that as authorising carte-blanche sending of personal data, but authorising the sending of data when needed under the other clauses of the contract. I would expect a company like Sky to have a much more fireproof cluase if they wanted to use your personal data without attracting legal action!


I think that clause allows them to do pretty much what they like, when they like. Sky are notorious for writing vague clauses into contracts.


----------



## frogster

ericd121 said:


> If I had access to TeleWest, I could have the Freedom Bundle for
> *£35.00* which consists of
> broadband complete (4MB),
> Starter TV (equivalent channels to FreeView) and
> Talk Weekends - a phone I wouldn't use but TeleWest insist I take with the TV package.
> Add to that
> *£15* for the TVDrive - HI-Def receiver and recorder.
> *Total £50 per month.* An increase on my current monthly spend of *£17*.
> 
> The Sky options, as listed by frogster above.
> The box - Purchase price *£299*
> The installation - Nothing
> *£15* per month - The viewing subscription
> *£10* per month - The HD subscription
> *£10* per month - The recording subscription.
> *Total £35 per month.*


You don't say which HD channels are included with the TVDrive.

Also your £15 Sky viewing sub would include very few HD channels (probably only one of either SkyOneHD - which by all accounts will be mostly SD material anyway - or DiscoveryHD), plus of course the free BBC channel which doesn't require any sort of sub.
I wouldn't consider worthwhile any Sky sub that was less than the old "Family Pack" which is now £20, IIRC. So the minimum worthwhile Sky HD sub with recording functions would be £20 + £10 + £10 = £40.
To which of course you would still need to add all your phone/ADSL costs.


----------



## frogster

Automan said:


> I can't imagine the current Sky box or Sky+ box is smart enough to store for a month a viewers activity and transmit it.
> I think its limit is your viewing card pin and maybe box office charges.


This has been extensively discussed elsewhere. The general consensus was that the box is smart enough to do it and that a phone call once a week or so would be adequate to send enough useful info. It is also widely accepted that, possible and legal as it is, Sky don't actually do it.
This is my opinion too: could happen but doesn't.



> Re using VOIP for the call. I imagine you can but my VOIP provider charges for 0800 calls and as I have multiroom so I'm sure Sky would be on as my boxes would be calling from the wrong number.


You would have to use a VOIP provider that provides a geographical number and would then need to give this number to Sky as being your main number. Obviously no one would do this unless they had some ulterior motive like wanting to use multiroom boxes in different locations, or to use any box outside of the official geographical location.


----------



## sanderton

cwaring said:


> Who decides what that rate is, if not Sky, and why have they not let them have Sky2/3 then?
> 
> Only the new TV Drive has a hard drive but the Teleport service is available to all customers. Programmes are stored at head-end and streamed.


I think the phrase is "normal commercial rates" - not sure who actually determines that.

HD movies are only available to TV Drive owners though, so HD movies might be downloaded first?


----------



## cwaring

sanderton said:


> HD movies are only available to TV Drive owners though, so HD movies might be downloaded first?


No. All content is 'streamed' from the head-end.



frogster said:


> You don't say which HD channels are included with the TVDrive.


None, because there aren't any at the moment  As already mentioned TW's Teleport service has a limited amount of HD content; some of which, as I understand it, is simply up-scaled from SD.


----------



## B33K34

sanderton said:


> I think the phrase is "normal commercial rates" - not sure who actually determines that.
> 
> HD movies are only available to TV Drive owners though, so HD movies might be downloaded first?


Actually fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory - OFT or Ofcom regulated i'd expect.


----------



## frogster

cwaring said:


> As already mentioned TW's Teleport service has a limited amount of HD content; some of which, as I understand it, is simply up-scaled from SD.


This applies to Sky also.


----------



## ericd121

frogster said:


> I wouldn't consider worthwhile any Sky sub that was less than the old "Family Pack" which is now £20, IIRC. So the minimum worthwhile Sky HD sub with recording functions would be £20 + £10 + £10 = £40.
> To which of course you would still need to add all your phone/ADSL costs.


I was costing out the *minimum* a new subscriber, like myself, would have to pay to receive Hi-Def.
According to *http://www.sky.com/ordersky/joinsky* , the minimum sub is £15, for two out of six mixes of channels, most of which I am not interested in (or wouldn't have the time to watch).


----------



## GarySargent

I have Sky HD being installed 22nd May!


----------



## eric23

Ooh, you lucky cow! 

Still waiting for my callback...


----------



## sanderton

Mine's arriving on the 22nd too - busy day for Sky installers I think!

Bloke on the phone couldn't get his head around my wanting multiroom but not wanting to move the Sky box. Kept trying to explain to me that I didn't need two Sky boxes for the same TV; I kept trying to explain to him that the multroom box was to attach to a TiVo as I had no confidence in Sky+!


----------



## eric23

Er Stuart, do you have to rub it in both here AND on Digital Spy?!

Still waiting for my call...


----------



## Automan

Gloom, Still no call and my Pansonic HDTV is now obsolete. Replaced by a new model with two HDMI inputs (but three cooling fans).

Automan.


----------



## eric23

Are you referring to the TH42PX60, Automan? Saw it in John Lewis on Wednesday. Stunning. Now if only I could find it for around the £1000 mark.


----------



## Bakdraft

sanderton said:


> Mine's arriving on the 22nd too - busy day for Sky installers I think!


Oh it's grim... I can feel it already... No phone call yet despite being pre - registered for ages . Last time this happened ( Tivo were wanting beta testers for 2.5 software ) and despite me registering for it early, my brother in law got selected and he only applied at the last minute!! 

I am seriously going to be fed up if I don't here something soon, especially as they took my £30!!

Also if you got 22nd May it isn't going to give much time before 1oth June!!!!

Dave


----------



## sanderton

eric23 said:


> Er Stuart, do you have to rub it in both here AND on Digital Spy?!
> 
> Still waiting for my call...


Ah, thought I recognised the name over there. Told the other half about how much HDMI cables cost yet?


----------



## Automan

Eric23, yes that's the new Panasonic TV....

Sanderton, in the infamous Powerpoint installers presentation I think it says SkyHD comes with an HDMI cable provided.

I have two cables ready even if it does not. All I need is a SkHD box!

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Just got the call to my mobile (number was withheld).

Call took 9mins 30secs which was mainly them reading the terms & conditions.

My install booked for 23rd May.

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

I asked them and they did say they would provide a HDMI cable.


----------



## sanderton

I believe Eric wanted a 10m one, which I doubt they will provide! I need a 3m one, and I'm assuming I'll need to buy that.


----------



## eric23

Stuart, I purchased a 10m one from TVcables.co.uk - good company to deal with, I've only heard positive comments.



Sanderton said:


> Told the other half about how much HDMI cables cost yet?


Oh yes! Actually, I had relatively few grumbles this time! I think he must be getting into the whole prosumer thing...


----------



## kitschcamp

Well we've taken the plunge and bought... a second tivo. Sorry. Freshly subscribed yesterday.


----------



## OzSat

Is anyone thinking of hooking up a TiVo to SkyHD?

I know it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, but then people do it with Sky+.


----------



## paxton

Yes, I plan to do that. We currently have just a regular sky dig box, but I presume it'll work in just the same way, ie hook tivo up to one of tuners on the SkyHD box and record any HD content from the other. 

Love the Tivo interface and endpad too much! And have no experience of how accurate the sky+ series links are compared to Tivo. Heard some horror stories, but that was a while back and people generally post failures on forums, not successes, so my view is probably a little skewed.

Can anyone give me an opinion on the Sky+ series links etc? Does it all seem to work on the major channels in the same was as Tivo? I assume an "endpad-type-hack" isn't needed because it starts recording when the broadcast does - is that right?


----------



## TIVO_YORK99

paxton said:


> Yes, I plan to do that. We currently have just a regular sky dig box, but I presume it'll work in just the same way, ie hook tivo up to one of tuners on the SkyHD box and record any HD content from the other.
> 
> Love the Tivo interface and endpad too much! And have no experience of how accurate the sky+ series links are compared to Tivo. Heard some horror stories, but that was a while back and people generally post failures on forums, not successes, so my view is probably a little skewed.
> 
> Can anyone give me an opinion on the Sky+ series links etc? Does it all seem to work on the major channels in the same was as Tivo? I assume an "endpad-type-hack" isn't needed because it starts recording when the broadcast does - is that right?


'fraid not. Sometimes when a programme badly overruns than SKY+ will record longer, however this has only happened once for me and I've lost the end of about 3 or 4 football matches (fortunately I made sure I recorded the programmes after the football just in case!)

You can have auto padding on Sky+ though that works very well with having two tuners. I can't remember the last time I have missed the end of a "normal" programme, in fact I think its probably only happened once whereas it happened all the time on Tivo as its only got one tuner.


----------



## paxton

Thanks for that tivo_york99, much appreciated.

I was just searching around for more info on the "Tivo with Sky+" thing and saw a post about not being able to watch a sky+ recording if tivo wants to record something. Does anyone know if this applies to live tv? 

ie if I'm watching England spank Brazil in glorious HD this summer and tivo wants to record Holby City or the like, will this work? Is it not ok with dual-tuner? If so, why would this be different if I'm watching a sky+ recording and tivo wants to record something?  Tivo does it ok...


----------



## Automan

If Tivo wanted to record Holby City it would transmit the ir to tell your Sky+ (or Sky HD) to change to the channel. Thus you will no longer be watching your HD channel but Holby City.

The Sky +/HD may have two tuners but only one output - This is the problem.

My Tivo on my main TV has a standard Digibox with multiroom. The only snag with that is £120.00 per year to Sky 

Its on one scart and sky+ is on another and thus both products can be used to their fullest extents.

Also of course Sky HD's IR codes will have to be added to the Tivo database.
As Gary is getting one on day 1 this should not take very long.

Automan.


----------



## paxton

> The Sky +/HD may have two tuners but only one output - This is the problem.


Ah...thanks Automan. This is the problem then. 

So to be able to keep my Tivo functionality AND have HD, I would have to stay with my current regular digibox with Tivo, and also have a SkyHD box.

I assume this is perfectly possible on the one dish (and of course, on my Pio 434, bought 2yrs ago in readiness for HD) /


----------



## mikerr

sanderton said:


> Told the other half about how much HDMI cables cost yet?


Mine cost £4.50 from http://stores.ebay.co.uk/West-Coast-Cables

He'll make one to any length you like.

Work fine with TVdrive & 37" LCD


----------



## Automan

Yes the best option is to have both Tivo with its own digibox and Sky HD - The best of both worlds....

Of course your Sky Installer will have to run two more feeds to the dish from the chosen location of Sky HD.

Automan.



paxton said:


> Ah...thanks Automan. This is the problem then.
> 
> So to be able to keep my Tivo functionality AND have HD, I would have to stay with my current regular digibox with Tivo, and also have a SkyHD box.
> 
> I assume this is perfectly possible on the one dish (and of course, on my Pio 434, bought 2yrs ago in readiness for HD) /


----------



## eric23

It'll be interesting to see if my installer will be accomodating at all. I'm hoping he'll run two new coax cables for the SkyHD service, leaving my existing one where it is for FreeSat. Then I'm hoping he'll connect up the FreeSat coax to the new quad LNB. But my LNBs are mounted on a non-standard bracket. I bet it'll be a headache... I wish my local independent installer was a bit further along with HD, then I would order through them instead of getting a jobsworth from Sky do it!


----------



## Bakdraft

I have to say I am a bit nervous about all of this...

My pioneer 505XDE is fed by my DV868 which upscales to HD and I have to say it is nothing special...

So I am a bit concerned that Sky asks you to comitt to HD for a year, pay £299 + £120 all without me ever seeing HD in the first place!!

I can't remember ever comitting so much money to something I had never seen to check whether it's worth it....

It sould be that if I am unhappy there is some sort of back out clause....I often wonder whether all the claims about how good HD is is made by people whohave inferior equipment...

But I guess we will soon see


----------



## eric23

I must say, I do have some concerns myself, Bakdraft. We're all purchasing something on the basis of what it "could be". The compression on the HD channels might be awful, but you kind of hope that they'll be doing all they can to impress.

There will, no doubt, be all sorts of ways to force them to give you your money back, distance selling, cooling off period etc. etc. Let's hope we don't have to start quoting legislation!


----------



## Fozzie

As a new customer they they specifically said as part of the the T&Cs that I have 14 days after installation (or was it 28?!) to cancel, so I'm not worried at all. (Note to self, don't cancel NTL just yet!)


----------



## GarySargent

I think it was 28 days.


----------



## sanderton

Nice big HDTV now on order to go with Sky+HD. Panansonic 36-inch CRT duly sold on eBay, was picked up today. Now have no TV at all in the living room!


----------



## Bakdraft

GarySargent said:


> I think it was 28 days.


Hi,

I have just come off the phone having booked my installation for the 24th May  and they told me I had 30 days after installation to cancel and receive a full refund on anything I had paid.

I am mighty glad about that as I was a bit concerned that it is not going to be all it's hyped up to be.

They also said that there may be extra charges levied at the installation if ' Extra equipment was needed e.g. cables.....?? ' I asked him to be more specific i.e. new LNB or dish... he saidd that they should be included. He didn't know the length of the HDMI cable.

He also said that the first installations will take place on the 22nd... which is pretty late into May

Oh well time to book a days Holiday!

Dave


----------



## paxton

Hi Bakdraft,

Do you mind me asking when you pre-ordered your SkyHD? I pre-registered way back when but didn't receive the email that was supposed to have come round, but I managed to pre-order on 4th April. 

I just wondered if they were calling people in date order of when they pre-ordered.

Cheers.


----------



## Bakdraft

paxton said:


> Hi Bakdraft,
> 
> Do you mind me asking when you pre-ordered your SkyHD? I pre-registered way back when but didn't receive the email that was supposed to have come round, but I managed to pre-order on 4th April.
> 
> I just wondered if they were calling people in date order of when they pre-ordered.
> 
> Cheers.


I 'showed interest ( I think that's the term) ages ago I would check when, but I can only do that from home not work, so I could let you know later. For Pre-ordering, after they sent out the invitation, it took about 5 days to make up my mind and actually pre-registered about the 3rd I think! As I say I can be more accurate when I get home.

I think that if they took your £30 then they will call you and most likely soon. I also think the terms and conditions said they would get round to calling you in a first come first serve basis

They called me at lunchtime today.

Dave


----------



## eric23

They've been trying to work out how the installations sequence works over at Digital Spy but so far, it seems completely random!

Sky did make a statement about it being "first come, first served" but that's not true. People who have booked way after me are being served first. 

Just sitting here _trying_ to be virtuous...


----------



## paxton

OK, thanks chaps.

They took my £30, so I guess it's just sit and wait then.


----------



## Fozzie

Please don't let this thread degenerate into the "but I ordered at 1037hrs on the first day and its not fair blah blah blah whine whine whine ..." There's enough of that crap on certain other forums!


----------



## eric23

I'm guessing you've already had your call, Fozzie?


----------



## Fozzie

eric23 said:


> I'm guessing you've already had your call, Fozzie?


That is of course correct  But then I hadn't put my life on hold waiting for the phone to ring, like some people seem to have done. I'm sure that Sky didn't mean literally that people will be called absolutely strictly in order of sign-up. Can you imagine, the whole call centre put on hold, waiting to see if Mr Smith, number 1,374th on the list answers his phone....yes, yes, he's answered, call the next person 

I do find it amusing/interesting that we've all shelled out a load of cash for something we (or at least most of us) have never even seen, let alone decided whether the extra quality is worth paying for!

The feeling I get from all the childish reactions over at AVforums is that a lot of people have signed up just so that they can say they've got Sky HD and gain some sort of kudos, rather than because they neccesarily want/need the extra quality. Myself, on the other hand.... 

I will of course be sad to say goodbye to TiVo. It has served me extremely well, as well as giving me hours of hacking and tweaking frustration and fun


----------



## Automan

My instal should be easy
1. New octo LNB on dish (which is easy to reach)
2. extra single (or replace single cable with twin) to kitchen - about 6-7m cable run

Then
Sky HD - living room
Normal digibox in living room (for Tivo)
Sky+ in kitchen
Normal digibox in bedroom (for tivo) - fta channels only

Simple - I hope 

http://online.tns-global.com/wix/p138521845.aspx may also be of interest if you live in the correct area (HD Freeview Trails - BBC Etc).

Automan.


----------



## paxton

Apologies Fozzie - I'm well aware of the frenzy on other forums and wasn't intending to start some of debate on install dates, it was just a genuine question.

I'm still in pondering over what to do, to be honest. I've had an HDready tv for a couple of years now, waiting for the box to show it, but I've had Tivo for much longer and am rather reluctant to give it up.

I guess the problem is that I don't know if Sky+ is a sufficient replacement for the way I use Tivo, which is nothing special, just plenty of shows on season pass on the main channels. I've never seen a Sky+ demo, let alone it working in the flesh, I've only heard horror stories about the fact that the "series links" tend to be very flakey.  Any comments? 

On the other hand, I'd love the ability to record/watch the movies in HD and 5.1, and I'm REALLY looking forward to the HD sports coverage.  

I'm debating whether to hook the Tivo up to the SkyHD box and see if that works the way I want. I'm aware that I will run into problems for certain combinations of watching/recording, but running my existing digibox in parrallel is perhaps stretching the monthly subs a little far.


----------



## eric23

I fee very much the same way as you, paxton. I am also reluctant to give up TiVo functionality, I'm also very concerned about Sky+ inadequacies, but I'm looking forward to be able to record the satellite stream, and also excited about 5.1.

I'm planning on running my TiVo on a FreeSat box. And then Sky+ will be completely seperate.

Also on your comments, Fozzie, about the reactions at AVforums, I haven't seen them there, but there's plenty of similar stuff on Digital Spy. I must confess I'm getting a little bit peeved about Sky not having called me back yet. For me, it's not about having the kudos of saying "I've got SkyHD", I've just been really excited about getting HD and can't wait for it! I also specifically want one of the first allocation of boxes, as I need a component output. So I'll be really pee'd off if other people who have ordered much later get a component output, and I don't!


----------



## Fozzie

Is there a suggestion that the first generation boxes will have HDMI and component outputs, with component being dropped in future versions? Presumeably you'll get a reduced PQ if you use component instead of HDMI.


----------



## eric23

Yes, they have said that they will be dropping component. It will only be on the first round of boxes, apparently. They haven't actually said WHEN they'll be dropping component, but I'm worried it's literally going to be on the first batch of boxes!

You've got to remember, some people have bought flat screens that ONLY have component inputs. As I understand it, there is a slight degredation in picture quality in analogue component HD, over the all-digital HDMI, but it is fairly insignificant - hardly noticeable. Pictures still look stunning on analogue HD!


----------



## Fozzie

eric23 said:


> You've got to remember, some people have bought flat screens that ONLY have component inputs.


Schoolboy error 

I'm just hoping that the PQ is as good as some of the trailers etc I've downloaded and looked at on the PC. This one is a good side-by-side demo of SD and HD:

http://www.hd-channel.com/videos/pal_vs_hdv.wmv

(The Madagascar trailer is pretty impressive too. Does anyone know if the actual film has been released in HD as I can't seem to find any mention of it?)


----------



## OzSat

I have been told by a couple of sources that the SD channels have no picture format coding and so display as widescreen - even though all their programming should be 4:3.

I've asked somebody to check on a Sky HD box and the answer came back that UKTV Gold is filling the complete widescreen tv picture via HDMI.

They are going to re-check that the stb and tv are correctly setup for switching - otherwise there could be a lot of stretched faces on HD-tvs.


----------



## paxton

That's not good.


----------



## OzSat

I am also told that although the Sky HD comes with a slightly different style remote - the Sky+ codes are used. So you can not run Sky HD and Sky+ units side-by-side.


----------



## ericd121

sanderton said:


> Nice big HDTV now on order to go with Sky+HD.


What telly did you go for, in the end?


----------



## Automan

I will not be a happy bunny if the box does not show 4:3 material in the correct aspect ratio (HD or SD).

My Panasonic TV offers no manual aspect ratio control when the HDMI connection is in use and thus the stb MUST get it right.

I have noted in recent times that Sky One (now normally in 16:9) has shown trailers for programs in 4:3 while maintaining a 16:9 signal.

However how it will work with none HD channels we will have to see....

Automan.


----------



## sanderton

Not so you'd notice, by all accounts.


----------



## Torchwood

I have a Hitachi 32LD7200 - over HDMI it will only display in 16:9 ratio so 4:3 stuff is stretched - no option to manually correct it. I don't know whether this is common to all HDMI connections. I guess it is possible to connect via HDMI and scart and switch between them.


----------



## Bakdraft

Fozzie said:


> Schoolboy error
> 
> I'm just hoping that the PQ is as good as some of the trailers etc I've downloaded and looked at on the PC. This one is a good side-by-side demo of SD and HD:
> 
> http://www.hd-channel.com/videos/pal_vs_hdv.wmv


Oh dear... I just watched the side by side clips... and well I wasn't that impressed!

Sure there was a difference.... but it was just that a small difference... Perhaps viewing it on a PC is not the best way to go...

If it is that small a difference it'll be like you wage rise... nice for the first month or two... and then you will never notice the difference... or perhaps I might notice the extra £120 a year 

Still I will happily try it for the month with a genuine open mind....

I know that with my full Cinema setup the 50 inch plasma is not as impressive as the sound... everyone says that so maybe the combination of better sound and picture will be the thing.... I hope


----------



## Fozzie

I can see a big difference on my PC. Perhaps you've got your screen set to a low-res? Anyone else see much of a difference?


----------



## Bakdraft

In fairness.... it was viewed on a laptop screen at 1024*768 but the screen is pretty good.


----------



## Fozzie

I'm at 1280 x 800 32 bit colour - perhaps you're just visually challenged and should cancel Sky HD as soon as possible; It's going to be wasted on you


----------



## kmusgrave

sanderton said:


> Nice big HDTV now on order to go with Sky+HD. Panansonic 36-inch CRT duly sold on eBay, was picked up today. Now have no TV at all in the living room!


Isn't it great to get all that space back?


----------



## OzSat

Automan said:


> I will not be a happy bunny if the box does not show 4:3 material in the correct aspect ratio (HD or SD).
> 
> My Panasonic TV offers no manual aspect ratio control when the HDMI connection is in use and thus the stb MUST get it right.
> 
> I have noted in recent times that Sky One (now normally in 16:9) has shown trailers for programs in 4:3 while maintaining a 16:9 signal.
> 
> However how it will work with none HD channels we will have to see....
> 
> Automan.


I don't care how the black bars appear (tv or stb generated) but they must be there on 4:3 channels.

I am told that the FTA tests are working perfectly with 4:3 / 16:9 switch using HDMI - but the test using a Sky HD stb are so far are fixed on 16:9 - even on 4:3 output. So UKTV Gold in filling the whole screen.

It could be a stb or tv config problem which is still being looked at.


----------



## Sneals2000

ozsat said:


> I don't care how the black bars appear (tv or stb generated) but they must be there on 4:3 channels.
> 
> I am told that the FTA tests are working perfectly with 4:3 / 16:9 switch using HDMI - but the test using a Sky HD stb are so far are fixed on 16:9 - even on 4:3 output. So UKTV Gold in filling the whole screen.
> 
> It could be a stb or tv config problem which is still being looked at.


If the interconnect is permanently 1080i or 720p via HDMI then the set top box has to deal with this. 1080i and 720p are only 16:9 formats - so 4:3 material will need black bars inserted left and right to correctly present 4:3 material within a 16:9 frame.

Given the lack of 576/50i HDMI compatibility on a number of HDMI displays I'd expect this to be a set top box function. I don't know if HDMI carrying SD can carry aspect ratio information as well.

The Telewest TV Drive also has HDMI output - and this pillarboxes the 4:3 SD channels to 16:9 HD with the expected pillarbox bars left and right. (Though there are slight centring issues)

This is almost certainly a set top box issue - not a TV one.


----------



## OzSat

The HDMI website indicates that picture ratio information is a part of the system.


----------



## cyril

I'm thinking of synchronising Sky HD's To Do List with one provided by TiVo.

Any ideas? I was thinking of each night reading TiVo's To Do list and sending the infrared commands required for each recording to Sky HD.


----------



## eric23

Yay, finally, at last! My call came. 26th May. Can't wait.

Now we really need to figure out how to hack Sky+ properly.


----------



## sanderton

cyril said:


> I'm thinking of synchronising Sky HD's To Do List with one provided by TiVo.
> 
> Any ideas? I was thinking of each night reading TiVo's To Do list and sending the infrared commands required for each recording to Sky HD.


Hmm, more than tricky I'd say.

But Sky are expected to launch their set-recording-by-SMS service soon, you could probably set something up using that using a DailyMail variant and an e-mail to SMS gateway. But it would cost...


----------



## Automan

I got my £30.00 refund today but still worried that Sky may have screwed up when it comes to none HD 4:3 channels via HDMI.

I expect Sky will say no one uses 4:3 so we did not bother to support it 

Automan.


----------



## sanderton

What do you mean by "support it"? If you mean "give the option to stretch" then you may be right; I expect 4:3 over HDMI to be pillarboxed only. after all you can just switch to RGB is you want to distort the pic.


----------



## GarySargent

For what it's worth my TV will allow me to force the screen format to 4:3 on the HDMI input and adds grey bars either side of the screen, so even if Sky do output incorrectly I can force it back. This may be the case for others too.

My TV is a Pioneer 436XDE.

In the options for the HDMI input there are also settings like "4:3 mode" (Wide or 4:3) which suggests the TV would support some kind of widescreen switching signal via HDMI.


----------



## Fozzie

GarySargent said:


> For what it's worth my TV will allow me to force the screen format to 4:3 on the HDMI input and adds grey bars either side of the screen, so even if Sky do output incorrectly I can force it back. This may be the case for others too.
> 
> My TV is a Pioneer 436XDE.


I'm glad you said that Gary; I've got the same TV


----------



## GarySargent

Fozzie said:


> I'm glad you said that Gary; I've got the same TV


Hook up your PC via the VGA port and select 1280x720 resolution.

Try running some of the High Definition samples through it and it looks stunning.

http://community.divx.com/movies/?categoryID=3
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/musicandvideo/hdvideo/contentshowcase.aspx
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/


----------



## Automan

Stuart,

I just want the box to provide or false the TV (if the HDMI standard includes aspect ratio control) to 4:3 so the picture is always the correct aspect ratio.

Wheter done by the STB or the TV I don't care. Just as long as it works 

I always watch TV now in the correct aspect ratio
e.g. just watching Jason King in 4:3 with grey at the sides.

Gary,
Re aspect control via HDMI on your TV - Is that with a 1080i signal?

My one will do it in some modes but not 1080i

Automan.


sanderton said:


> What do you mean by "support it"? If you mean "give the option to stretch" then you may be right; I expect 4:3 over HDMI to be pillarboxed only. after all you can just switch to RGB is you want to distort the pic.


----------



## Bakdraft

GarySargent said:


> For what it's worth my TV will allow me to force the screen format to 4:3 on the HDMI input and adds grey bars either side of the screen, so even if Sky do output incorrectly I can force it back. This may be the case for others too.
> 
> My TV is a Pioneer 436XDE.
> 
> In the options for the HDMI input there are also settings like "4:3 mode" (Wide or 4:3) which suggests the TV would support some kind of widescreen switching signal via HDMI.


Gary,

I have a 505XDE and there are no setup options for the HDMI. In which menu item are you finding this? I appreciate that you are 1 gen on from mine and that may be where the difference is, in which case I will ask pioneer if there is a software update for my screen.

Dave


----------



## GarySargent

Yes the settings and aspect change controls work on 1080i.

To force change the aspect ratio I press the usual aspect ratio button (bottom right button on remote).

The HDMI option are (from a HDMI channel) in Menu->Option

There are options:

Position (horizontal & vertical)
Auto size (on/off - screen size switches automatically)
4:3 mode (Wide or 4:3)
Side mask (brightness of side mask in 4:3 mode, fixed or auto (matches pic))
HDMI Video format (Auto/Component 4:2:2/Component 4:4:4/RGB)
Drive mode (75Hz or 100Hz)


----------



## Bakdraft

GarySargent said:


> The HDMI option are (from a HDMI channel) in Menu->Option


Thanks Gary, but what do you mean ' from a HDMI channel?..... Do you mean when viewing a HDMI sourced input to the box?

Dave


----------



## GarySargent

Bakdraft said:


> Thanks Gary, but what do you mean ' from a HDMI channel?..... Do you mean when viewing a HDMI sourced input to the box?
> 
> Dave


Yes, or at least when that AV channel is selected (there doesn't have to be an actual signal). The options available in the menus change depending on what input source channel you are on (eg SCART inputs have options for Component/RGB which aren't present on the same menus on a HDMI input).


----------



## Automan

Gary,
My panasonic lets me change the aspect when the HDMI is selected with no signal but not when it is connected to a 1080i source.

Then it is locked to 16:9

Does your one give you aspect control when connected to a 1080i source?

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Yes my Sony RDR-HXD910 DVD/HD recorder outputs 1080i via HDMI and I can control the aspect ratio as I please using the TV remote.

On BBC News 24 I can cycle between: Full (16:9), Zoom, 4:3 (with left/right side bars), and Wide (4:3 stretched). By default it selected Full.


----------



## Bakdraft

GarySargent said:


> Yes, or at least when that AV channel is selected (there doesn't have to be an actual signal). The options available in the menus change depending on what input source channel you are on (eg SCART inputs have options for Component/RGB which aren't present on the same menus on a HDMI input).


Hmm... how unfortunate... Despite my TV being only 8 months apart from yours, I do not have those choices on mine. 

There is a HDMI options setup.. but with not much in it other than colour...

I also have a Pioneer DV868 ( HDMI + Ilink - upscaling to HD) and when this is used I cannot alter screen ratios (other than standard wide and standard full).

I will call Pioneer on Tuesday to see if there is a software update.


----------



## Bakdraft

When I got my call from sky they informed me that the HD movie channels were 9 & 10.

I noticed that currently my Tivo shows 

309 - SKYM9
310 - SKYM10
311 - SKYM9HD ( Sky box shows Sky Mov9HD )
312 - SKYM9HD ( Sky box shows Sky Mov10HD )

I guess somethings got to change there... Tribune I guess..


----------



## OzSat

Bakdraft said:


> When I got my call from sky they informed me that the HD movie channels were 9 & 10.
> 
> I noticed that currently my Tivo shows
> 
> 309 - SKYM9
> 310 - SKYM10
> 311 - SKYM9HD ( Sky box shows Sky Mov9HD )
> 312 - SKYM9HD ( Sky box shows Sky Mov10HD )
> 
> I guess somethings got to change there... Tribune I guess..


All is OK.

Until yesterday, TiVo had a single place holder for Sky Movies HD at 311 and 312. They are adding the listings to these two and you have caught it halfway through the change.

On Saturday's update you should see all is OK (with listings) - SBO is also changing to two channels instead of a double placeholder and (where available) listings are being added to the other HD channels.

The only problem at present is that some channels (SBO, Nat Geo, Sky Sports) are not providing any listings.


----------



## OzSat

My Toshiba 32WLT66 allows manual aspect changing to 4:3 or 16:9 in 1080i and the other two my DVD outputs (although not to 14:9 or subtitle which are available on other inputs).


----------



## chimaera

I tried to order HD yesterday but it didn't go very well. First I tried the HD microsite. The only option it offered was HD Multiroom at an extra £30 pcm for me. I'm not interested in Multiroom, so I phoned Sky. They gave me a different number to call. I called that number, and was told they were far too busy to take an order. When I said that I could order it online except the HD-only package wasn't a choice on the website, they were adamant that you could not order HD online, until I told them I was looking at the order form at the time. "We've been told you can't order it online yet" was their excuse. Shows how much they know! It's even an option for new customers on the main Join Sky page, it's not just on the HD microsite. And if you are a new customer, there's an option for HD without Multiroom.

Anyway, the only suggestion was to go to Comet and pay £30, then wait for them to screw up the order for you, with no guaranteed or even estimated install date. At that point I gave up. I don't need it that much. I'll wait until they know what they are doing. It will be the end for TiVo unfortunately but I've had it since October 1 2000 so I think I've got plenty of value for money out of it.


----------



## Major dude

eric23 said:


> It'll be interesting to see if my installer will be accomodating at all. I'm hoping he'll run two new coax cables for the SkyHD service, leaving my existing one where it is for FreeSat.


Booked my install for 26th May however agent was not prepared to arrange for two feeds off one dish as part of the install. Said an independant installer may do this for me though.


----------



## Heuer

Major dude said:


> Booked my install for 26th May however agent was not prepared to arrange for two feeds off one dish as part of the install. Said an independant installer may do this for me though.


Do it yourself with bits from here: http://www.satalogue.com/ or here 
http://www.satcure.co.uk/


----------



## OzSat

Major dude said:


> Booked my install for 26th May however agent was not prepared to arrange for two feeds off one dish as part of the install. Said an independant installer may do this for me though.


What you are asking for is all the extra work required for a Multiroom sub, but without paying for it.

It is simply to yourself.


----------



## eric23

My specific issues are:

(a) I have a non-standard LNB bracket - I have a larger dish, and a weird bracket for my offset 19.2E LNB. So when it comes to replacing the single 28.2E LNB for a quad one, I think he's going to run into a problem of actually fixing it.

(b) I want him to completely disregard all the existing Sky cabling there at the moment - I want this new box to go to a different room, as I'm moving everything into a machine cupboard upstairs.

(c) As well as the two coaxes for SkyHD, I would have liked him to clip up an additional two or three coax cables at the same time (one for a FreeSat box, one for Astra 1 and perhaps another for a future Hotbird LNB). I would have been happy to supply the coax, as I have reels of Webro WF100 sitting around the house from my AV distribution project! My independent installer would have been happy to do this for nothing, I'm sure, since I have put a fair bit of business their way in the past.

(d) I have very thick external walls, and don't have my own drill bit long enough to drill any extra holes myself - it would be a really quick job for somebody who is already up there wielding a drill! And would save me £20 for a drill bit I'll use once.

(e) I'd really just like to use my independent anyway - they've been really helpful in the past, and I'd like to give them the business. I might even be persuaded to spend a bit extra at the same time to put Hotbird in and get a new STB and DiSEcQ controller for my non-Sky services.


----------



## OzSat

2b is a standard Multiroom install - but the others I think will all be charged as extras.


----------



## Automan

I see several vendors including Pioneer are offering in the UK Plasma Panels which are really 1920x1080 pixels and of course handle 1080p for HD DVD.

Such a TV is at http://www.avland.co.uk/pioneer/pdp5000ex/pdp5000ex.htm

Will the Sky HD picture look much beeter on one of these compared with a 1024x768 "HD Ready" TV?

Automan.


----------



## eric23

I don't think it will look £6000 better, Automan! 1080p isn't going to be around for off-air broadcasts for quite some time - mainly due to the ridiculously high bandwidth required. There's no suggestions of 1080p DVD titles being released any time soon. And the games consoles that claim 1080p will be spitting out an upscaled 720p version anyway.

IMO I think you should wait to invest in a 1080p set for a while. By the time 1080p sets are dominating the market, we'll have much better technologies available, at more affordable prices (SED, OLED etc.).


----------



## cyril

Automan said:


> I see several vendors including Pioneer are offering in the UK Plasma Panels which are really 1920x1080 pixels and of course handle 1080p for HD DVD.
> 
> Such a TV is at http://www.avland.co.uk/pioneer/pdp5000ex/pdp5000ex.htm
> 
> Will the Sky HD picture look much beeter on one of these compared with a 1024x768 "HD Ready" TV?
> 
> Automan.


I'd like to know if the upcoming 1080p panels are going to be that much better compared to a top of range 1080i , as I'm thinking of getting a Fujitsu P63XHa40 and Lumagen or Crystallio II scaler.


----------



## sanderton

Little bit early to jump on that bandwagon yet. At CES a number of manufacturers told me thet their BluRay/HD-DVD players wouldn't actually output 1080p yet as the HDMI chipset didn't support the bandwidth required.

Also for 1080i video sources (as opposed to film) you need to watch out for how the panel deinterlaces the signal. Many current TVs do a simple "bob" which lowers the effective resolution to 540 lines.


----------



## sjp

eric23 said:


> <snip>
> one for Astra 1 and perhaps another for a future Hotbird LNB).
> <bigger snip>
> I might even be persuaded to spend a bit extra at the same time to put Hotbird in and get a new STB and DiSEcQ controller for my non-Sky services.


I recently plumbed a "Lemon" 30 quid astra1/hotbird combined monobloc LNB for my MIL. Not much of a name but it more than does the trick, onboard DiSEcQ switch - single cable run.

Looks like it's 34 quid now, check www . creativesatellite . co . uk - if you ask nicely he'll let you pick it up from his place (house) if you're near Bromley, Kent.


----------



## cyril

It seems that most 1080p displays have an input for 1080i only!

By the time F1 goes HD :http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=27731 I should have a proper 103" 1080p input panel


----------



## weeble

eric23 said:


> There's no suggestions of 1080p DVD titles being released any time soon.


Err, some - if not all - the US HD-DVD titles getting released around now are 1080p according to the specs 

Sad thing is, I don't think any of the players announced can actually output 1080p yet (as sanderton has already pointed out)


----------



## Heuer

cyril said:


> I'd like to know if the upcoming 1080p panels are going to be that much better compared to a top of range 1080i , as I'm thinking of getting a Fujitsu P63XHa40 and Lumagen or Crystallio II scaler.


Go for the Lumagen - now way ahead of the Crystallio!


----------



## sanderton

Just got my new 56-inch HD Sagem set up. Wow. Just, wow. I really can't wait for the 22nd now.

The pic quality from MCE (DTT rendered at 720p by an XBox 360) is just amazing. Blows away the same shows over RGB. 

Bizarrely the shows I've converted to WMV from TiVo look better upscaled to 720p over component than the original MPEG-2 does direct from the TiVo over RGB. Go figure.


----------



## eric23

You need to update your signature, Stuart. 

Thanks for making me feel luke warm about the 26" LCD I'm about to order  (Panasonic TX26LXD60). Will probably get a 42" plasma as soon as the main TV room is finished being renovated (probably the 42" Panasonic in the same range).

The 26" LCD will eventually go above the mantelpiece in the dining room for occasional viewing but will become our main screen temporarily whilst the house is in chaos.


----------



## Bakdraft

Bakdraft said:


> Hmm... how unfortunate... Despite my TV being only 8 months apart from yours, I do not have those choices on mine.
> 
> There is a HDMI options setup.. but with not much in it other than colour...
> 
> I also have a Pioneer DV868 ( HDMI + Ilink - upscaling to HD) and when this is used I cannot alter screen ratios (other than standard wide and standard full).
> 
> I will call Pioneer on Tuesday to see if there is a software update.


Well I got my answer from Pioneer......



> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for your email.
> 
> Regretfully the 5th generation will not allow the change to screen ratio/sizes, but the 6th generation had this as normal. Regretfully the 5th generation cannot be altered/ updated to have this feature.
> 
> Regards.
> Customer Relations
> PIONEER GB LIMITED


I have to say that it's grim that you spend £3,500 on a 5th gen panel only for it to be replaced 8 month later and find out that it cannot support screen re-sizing 

Like Automan... I am concerned....


----------



## OzSat

I would have thought that this would have been a standard feature of all tv's for several years now.


----------



## chimaera

When I complained that new customers get the option for HD without multiroom on the web site, but existing customers don't, I got this reply:

_Thank you for contacting us.

I note your comments regarding the HD service and I must advise that if you only require the HD box this can be purchased without the multiroom option. The purchase price is £299.00 for the box and £60.00 for installation.

Unfortunately there is no option on the website at present that will allow you to select this service without choosing multiroom and I am unable to give a timescale as to when this will be added. To order your HD box please call our dedicated line on 08702 403 240.

We want all our customers to get the best service possible and Im sorry if you feel let down in this instance. Should you require any further assistance please email the above address._

Great. I already pointed out that life's too short for dealing with their call centre, and that only offering HD with Multiroom is a ripoff since many people don't want Multiroom and certainly won't pay an extra £120 a year for something they don't want, even if that is the only option.


----------



## chimaera

Well I gave in and called the number, and ordered HD without Multiroom. It took 20 minutes on the phone at their exorbitabant rates, 15 minutes of which was listening to endless promotional drivel. And of course you have to pay immediately for the box which they are unable to install for 6 weeks. Sky really know how to screw over their customers. I just wish there was a viable alternative, but I don't see one :down:


----------



## GarySargent

Actually how are they allowed to do this? I thought distance selling rules stated that they couldn't charge you until the goods had been shipped?


----------



## chimaera

GarySargent said:


> Actually how are they allowed to do this? I thought distance selling rules stated that they couldn't charge you until the goods had been shipped?


That's a good question, but I don't think the Distance Selling Regulations cover it. I believe retailers are entitled to charge at point of order if they want to, provided they make that clear. I was also told I would get a free install, even though it's a day after the free installation offer expires, and that I could cancel it after it has been installed, for up to one calendar month, and get a full refund, which exceeds the statutory requirements for a 7 day cooling off period.


----------



## Heuer

sanderton said:


> Just got my new 56-inch HD Sagem set up. Wow. Just, wow. I really can't wait for the 22nd now.
> 
> The pic quality from MCE (DTT rendered at 720p by an XBox 360) is just amazing. Blows away the same shows over RGB.
> 
> Bizarrely the shows I've converted to WMV from TiVo look better upscaled to 720p over component than the original MPEG-2 does direct from the TiVo over RGB. Go figure.


Time to buy a Lumagen scaler Stuart and you will really see what your screen is capable of!

Give Gordon a call and get the Plasma calibrated at the same time as he demos it for you. www.convergent-av.co.uk


----------



## Heuer

Amazon.com are selling the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD players for $500 from the end of April. PJ-Hifi are selling them in the UK for £500 and the HDXA1 for £650 - delivery in a couple of weeks!

Just a heads up for all you HD devotees.
IMG_0465.jpg


----------



## 10203

chimaera said:


> It took 20 minutes on the phone at their exorbitabant rates


So it's you paying for all the glossy brochures they're sending me as a signed-up-as-interested-but-hasn't-ordered-yet customer


----------



## Heuer

Blu-ray DVD players available for pre-order for Delivery mid August:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INT...b&dcmp=bluray_email&hqs=blurayplayer_preorder

Looks like it is going to be a fully HD world by the Autumn.


----------



## eric23

LJ said:


> chimaera said:
> 
> 
> 
> It took 20 minutes on the phone at their exorbitabant rates
> 
> 
> 
> So it's you paying for all the glossy brochures they're sending me as a signed-up-as-interested-but-hasn't-ordered-yet customer
Click to expand...

NOT FORGETTING the glossy brochures they keep sending me, trying to tempt me to sign up, even though I ordered HD weeks ago...


----------



## kitschcamp

You must be getting my share; despite registering interest they've never bothered contacting me further. Just as well I'm not going to get it after all.


----------



## OzSat

chimaera said:


> Great. I already pointed out that life's too short for dealing with their call centre, and that only offering HD with Multiroom is a ripoff since many people don't want Multiroom and certainly won't pay an extra £120 a year for something they don't want, even if that is the only option.


I currently have Sky+ and a Multiroom sub on a Digibox for TiVo.

I thought that adding the Sky HD service and retaining to existing setup would be £20pm - but have now been told twice on the 'phone and by two Sky staff by e-mail that:

My extra £10 for Sky HD will include the fact it is an additional box to the two currently in operation - and I will not be charged another £10 for it being a MultiRoom box.

It may be that those with one box and now adding HD pay £20pm, but those already with a MultiRoom sub will not pay another MultiRoom sub.


----------



## Fozzie

Something's not right somewhere. The pricing is quite straightforward - multi-room (whatever subscription, HD or just plus) is £10 per month. HD is £10 per month. That's it.


----------



## OzSat

That is what I thought - but I have had two telephone confirmations and an e-mail.

I replied to the e-mail to reconfirm I will now have 3 boxes - and the reply was that the pricing was correct and I would only have to be an extra £10 for having HD as an additional box.

The prices were even broke down to items - showing the Sky+ box, HD box and Digibox as three sperate entries.

The Sky+ was the primary box and the sub bit is FOC due to subscription level.

The Digibox was £10 for Multiroom and the additional HD box (with Sky+ enabled) was £10.


----------



## katman

Hi Ozsat,

Are you saying that Multiroom is £10 for the ability to have additional boxes rather than £10 per additional box ?

I currently have SKY+ and my original Digibox on Multiroom and am paying £46 pm. If I were to obtain another Digibox (already have the LNB cabling installed) could I run all three boxes for the same amount ?

cheers

Keith


----------



## katman

Bum 

Just found this on the SKY website....

*Can I have Sky digital in more than two rooms? *

A standard Sky box works by taking one digital feed from your minidish. This means that one minidish can serve up to two Sky+ boxes or four Sky boxes in your home. *You will need a Multiroom subscription for each additional box in the different rooms around your house. *

Thought it was too good to be true


----------



## OzSat

That is how I always understood it - but perhaps they are doing a special deal for HD users?

I am expecting it will be £20 - but I now have two e-mails from Sky confirming it is only £10 in my case.


----------



## Bliesner

Apologies if this has already been discussed/answered, but does anyone know if you need two satellite inputs on the new HD box (as you do with Sky+) in order to access the "dual tuner" functonality? Or does HD TV somehow overcome this problem now?


----------



## OzSat

Bliesner said:


> Apologies if this has already been discussed/answered, but does anyone know if you need two satellite inputs on the new HD box (as you do with Sky+) in order to access the "dual tuner" functonality? Or does HD TV somehow overcome this problem now?


Each tuner will still needs its own feed.


----------



## Bliesner

Lucky I have a Tivo still then.......


----------



## Fozzie

It's two feeds per box (one per tuner). The standard quad LNB will support two boxes (HD &/or Sky+). If you've more than two boxes then you'll need an octo LNB.


----------



## Automan

Yes I will need an Octo LNB 

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

So can I have my normal Sky box as my primary box, and then have a HD box as well for £10/month?! That sounds like what you are saying ozsat but I'm sure my original box is going to stop working when I get HD.

I want them in the same room so Sky's "You will need a Multiroom subscription for each additional box in the *different rooms* around your house" does not apply


----------



## eric23

Gary, you can have a new HD box and your existing Sky box - if you pay the extra subscription of course. Your old Sky box will only be cancelled if you have it cancelled!

I'm getting the installer to convert my existing viewing card/box to a FreeSat when he makes the call to Sky to activate the new card for HD. Apparently you have to specifically mention this, otherwise it gets cancelled altogether and you can only watch FTA channels (not FTV as well). That'll save me £20 for a FreeSat card.

If you want Sky subs on both your new HD box AND your old standard box, what you'll pay to have multiroom is anyone's guess! This situation that ozsat has found himself in seems a little bit peculiar - the first time I've heard of it at least.

If I were you, ozsat, if they change their mind and say they got it wrong, I would argue with them until you were blue in the face - you have now got pricing documentation that I imagine forms part of a contract which has already been agreed upon.


----------



## GarySargent

Well I just phoned and once I had convinced the guy "yes I do really need the extra box in the same room, and yes I know the Sky+ functionality adds lots of recording functionality and is a "quantum leap" (his words!) etc" then he said yes I need to pay another £10/month to keep the old Sky box with a Sky sub.

He also said I wasn't getting a new viewing card for HD, they would use the existing card in my old box. So beware if you're expecting a new card and using the old one for Freesat!


----------



## eric23

I've been told completely the opposite - I will get a new viewing card about a week before the install.


----------



## OzSat

I need a new viewing card as I'm getting a new box and not stopping any existing box.

I will then have two Multirooms - as I will have three boxes. This maybe why they say they they are not going to charge yet another Multiroom.

Perhaps some loyalty bonus - but more likely a mistake.


----------



## Automan

First, I'm glad to see Gary has taken the leap and will finnaly have the power of Sky+ and in HD 

A Digitalspy person has spotted an Itilian website with details of Sky HD including a picture of the back (the important bit).

The article is at http://www.avmagazine.it/articoli/sorgenti/70/index.html

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

"power of Sky+" - is that a joke? I hope so!

I'm seriously considering having to pay yet another £10 per month for a normal extra Sky box so I can run it with TiVo still.


----------



## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> "power of Sky+" - is that a joke? I hope so!
> 
> I'm seriously considering having to pay yet another £10 per month for a normal extra Sky box so I can run it with TiVo still.


There was so "considering" for me - it was not optional.


----------



## BrianHughes

Automan said:


> First, I'm glad to see Gary has taken the leap and will finnaly have the power of Sky+ and in HD
> 
> A Digitalspy person has spotted an Itilian website with details of Sky HD including a picture of the back (the important bit).
> 
> The article is at http://www.avmagazine.it/articoli/sorgenti/70/index.html
> 
> Automan.


Interesting to see that it's got USB, ethernet & SATA connectors.


----------



## Automan

All of which at launch do nothing 

However I will plug in an ethernet cable to see if it dhcp's an IP address

Automan.


BrianHughes said:


> Interesting to see that it's got USB, ethernet & SATA connectors.


----------



## Heuer

I am losing the will to live ..............

http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2006/04/bbc_launches_hd.html#more

But this looks good:

http://www.humaxdigital.com/global/products/new_leaflet/HDCI-2000_L.pdf


----------



## Automan

http://www.home-entertainment.toshi...es/lcdplasma-lcdfreeview-42wlt66?opendocument looks of interest but does not list all supported signal modes it will accept.

USA TV's now all seem to say "1080P Ready" rather than our "HD Ready"...

Automan.


----------



## healeydave

I was reading an article about Sky HD today and I was suprised at some of Sky's target figures that had been quoted:

"BskyB hopes that 25% of customers will have Multiroom by 2010 and 30% will have Sky+ by 2010. "

The stats didn't stretch to the percentage of customers hoped to be on HD by 2010 though!

On a seperate note, here's a challenge:

Has anyone evaluated what it will cost to be an early adopter of TRUE 1080 High Definition lets say for the first 12 months? (obviously it will get cheaper the longer you keep the same equipment, without changing any components)

e.g.
What price for a TRUE 1080 Display (say 40"+ in size)
What price for the Cabling
What price for the Receiver (e.g. SKYHD set-top-box)
What price for the Subscriptions 
Anything else I've missed?

I'm intrigued to know just how much it will cost to experience the best quality TV. Whats worrying is I know a guy who has and install date for HD being quoted for June and the LCD he purchased 18 months+ ago isn't even HD Ready!! He'll probably want to connect it up using the existing scart cables


----------



## GarySargent

Some of you seem to be a tad hung up on resolutions and 1080p etc. Have you actually compared some of the sets and read magazine reviews etc?

The current class leading Plasma TV's are 1024x768 resolution - beating sets with a higher resolution. These figures are not the only thing that counts towards a top notch picture!

Also as soon as 1080p appears on sets en-mass, there will be an 1800p or whatever on the horizon. There is ALWAYS something "better" around the corner!


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## GarySargent

Apparently Sky are now saying they will output everything in 1080i ...

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=8681


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## cyril

GarySargent said:


> Some of you seem to be a tad hung up on resolutions and 1080p etc. Have you actually compared some of the sets and read magazine reviews etc?
> 
> The current class leading Plasma TV's are 1024x768 resolution - beating sets with a higher resolution. These figures are not the only thing that counts towards a top notch picture!
> 
> Also as soon as 1080p appears on sets en-mass, there will be an 1800p or whatever on the horizon. There is ALWAYS something "better" around the corner!


There are VERY many factors other than resolution -quality of scaling, dynamic range, contrast and black level etc..

However 1080p is the highest format that games, TV and recorded content will be available in for the near future -hence the obsession for a 1080p display.

I'm getting a 720p (with good scaling for 1080i) display now as it's about £5k cheaper than a 1080p 65".


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## Heuer

healeydave said:


> e.g.
> 
> Anything else I've missed?
> 
> I'm intrigued to know just how much it will cost to experience the best quality TV.


Yes - a good quality scaler.


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## Automan

Would my 8 Megapixel Canon EOS pictures look better on a 40" 1024x768 plasma panel or a 40" 1920x1080 plasma panel?

Source would either be Pinnacle ShowCenter 200 or XBOX 360 both set to 1080i (no P  )

Automan.


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## GarySargent

Go ahead and waste your money Automan if you really think more pixels is better.

With a 40inch TV at a normal viewing distance the extra pixel information would not be visible by the human eye.

What might be visible is the poor contrast, black/white levels etc on the 1920x1080 plasma if the panel is not of as good quality as the lower res one.


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## Heuer

GarySargent said:


> Go ahead and waste your money Automan if you really think more pixels is better.
> 
> With a 40inch TV at a normal viewing distance the extra pixel information would not be visible by the human eye.
> 
> What might be visible is the poor contrast, black/white levels etc on the 1920x1080 plasma if the panel is not of as good quality as the lower res one.


Or correctly calibrated..........................!


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## GarySargent

Thinking about it more a set with a higher res means the pixels are closer together, which means leakage of light from one pixel to the next is even more likely.

There is also a greater chance of dead pixels.


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## Automan

I'll wait till the new year before worrying about another new TV.

Prices should be lower and perhaps the 2nd generation Sky HD box may be out to replace the first dodgy model 

Automan.


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## Automan

A digitalspy person has found the following that says over 40,000 boxes ordered prior to Sky HD launch.

http://media247.co.uk/skydigital/newsarchive/2006/05/sky_hd_latest_4.php

Thats more than Tivo's total UK customer base....

Automan.


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## chimaera

True, but TiVo was the first PVR to market in the UK, and their promotion of its wide range of benefits was... practically non-existent. Most people had no idea what it did, but many people may well have bought one had they known. In fact, several people I know bought one after seeing mine in action. Nowadays, everyone knows what Sky+ and Freeview hard disc recorders do, so it's much easier. The number of people stuck in the last century timeshifting onto videotapes is shrinking rapidly. Also there would be no point having HD without a hard disc recorder, so it's more about HD than the Sky+ element. I would much rather have an HD satellite box with twin tuners and TiVo software, but it's unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future it seems.


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## chimaera

Automan said:


> I'll wait till the new year before worrying about another new TV.
> 
> Prices should be lower and perhaps the 2nd generation Sky HD box may be out to replace the first dodgy model
> 
> Automan.


The first boxes are all made by Thomson, which I'm quite pleased about given my experiences with TiVo and the DHD4000 Freeview DVR. You're welcome to wait for the Amstrad ones if you like, if you think they will be as well engineered as the first boxes. I doubt it  Also, only the first boxes will have component out, which means wider support for existing panels which don't fit the HD Ready criteria. Initially it was expected that the only HD output would be via HDMI because of HDCP, but it looks as though that isn't the case. Instead, they will just remove those outputs from later boxes so the problem goes away.


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## katman

chimaera said:


> The first boxes are all made by Thomson, which I'm quite pleased about given my experiences with TiVo and the DHD4000 Freeview DVR.


Although the boxes are made by Thomson it will still be running SKY's software.

My SKY+ is a Thomson box, the actual STB is a nice bit of kit but the software is an absolute crock. The box has ben rebooted at least a dozen times since I got it in November and I realised the other night that it had dropped yet another series link 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE will someone release a new PVR that is as good and reliable as my trusty TiVo.


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## chimaera

katman said:


> Although the boxes are made by Thomson it will still be running SKY's software.


Of course, but then so will the later boxes, so it doesn't alter my original point. We would all like TiVo to do something new in the UK market but as time goes on it looks increasingly unlikely.


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## Automan

I don't really mind who makes the second generation Sky HD box (as long it is not Alan Michael Sugar TRADing  ).

2nd Generation box should be smaller and I would perfer if it was "legacy free" with no RF, Scart or Component Video outputs "Analog Free".

Also not sure about the physical colour of Sky HD V1 - Black 

Automan.


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## sanderton

Automan said:


> I2nd Generation box should be smaller and I would perfer if it was "legacy free" with no RF, Scart or Component Video outputs "Analog Free".


Highly unlikely for many years; too many Sky subscribers use RF etc for distributing signals to a second telly, and there would be no way to permanntly archive shows without an analogue out.


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## chimaera

sanderton said:


> Highly unlikely for many years; too many Sky subscribers use RF etc for distributing signals to a second telly


True, but they are trying to push Multiroom with HD anyway. If you take this then they relocate your current STB to another room when HD is installed, and charge you yet another £10 a month. You can see why they would prefer this to RF distribution. Of course it's a much better way of doing it, except for the cost. Initially this was the only HD option offered on the website to existing customers, and you had to phone to get a non-Multiroom install. I've heard that may have changed now.


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## healeydave

chimaera said:


> .........it's more about HD than the Sky+ element.


Absolutely, I know a few people that have signed up for Sky HD and they didn't even know it was a DVR too!!

A lot of business venues are also hoping to get HD installed for the world cup, again its HD they want, not the DVR aspect.


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## Gaspode

Automan said:


> A digitalspy person has found the following that says over 40,000 boxes ordered prior to Sky HD launch.
> 
> http://media247.co.uk/skydigital/newsarchive/2006/05/sky_hd_latest_4.php
> 
> Thats more than Tivo's total UK customer base....
> 
> Automan.


I think that figure is now a LOT higher - well over 50K now ...

I was lucky enough (I think) to get into the first round of preorders - My installation date is May 22nd which is the earliest I've heard of (Aside from trialists) . A friend registered Sunday and she has been given an earliest date of July 8th ..

It does mean poor old Tivo may well be retired to Freeview duties - hes now getting on a bit and only one of his scart outputs is still working - he's daisy chained to my HDD/DVD recorder any way ... Plus with the drive crash last week ...

I can't get rid of him completely so i'll put my freeview box on him


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## Automan

http://www.satcure.com/tech/digicode.htm#skyhd seems to indicate the codes used are different.

Still as Gary is getting one on day 1 it should not be a big issue 

Automan.


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## GarySargent

Another post I've seen elsewhere (info from a beta/trial user apparently) said the codes were the same as Sky+.

As you say, not an issue...


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## Bakdraft

As I don't know that much about Sky+ I am hoping for some advise..

I was thinking that I am not giving up on Tivo.. so can I....

Use Tivo to control Sky HD to record on 1 of its dual recorders.. this would be for general channels

Use the second receiver/recorder to manually record HD channels as and when needed?

This way I don't have to put up with the awful sky epg except for HD programs.

Or am I just deaming..


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## iankb

I'm sure that somebody could write a PC program that uses the TivoWeb server to get program and/or schedule details, and then used IR to schedule/control the Sky box, via a remote/video sender if necessary.


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## Automan

Tivo should be able to control Sky HD but the device only has one output stage and no user control on which of the two tuners it uses to record.

The "+" functions of Sky+ get in the way and you are better off without them.

Example
You are watching a recording made by Sky HD (normal or hi-def).

Then Tivo wants to record something.
Tivo will blast the IR and you will then be watching what Tivo wants to record.

I have a mirror sub standard Sky box for Tivo alongside Sky+ (soon to be Sky HD)

Tivo can then record what it wants when it wants.

P.S. Where is channel 145?

Automan.


Bakdraft said:


> As I don't know that much about Sky+ I am hoping for some advise..
> 
> I was thinking that I am not giving up on Tivo.. so can I....
> 
> Use Tivo to control Sky HD to record on 1 of its dual recorders.. this would be for general channels
> 
> Use the second receiver/recorder to manually record HD channels as and when needed?
> 
> This way I don't have to put up with the awful sky epg except for HD programs.
> 
> Or am I just deaming..


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## Bakdraft

Automan said:


> Tivo should be able to control Sky HD but the device only has one output stage and no user control on which of the two tuners it uses to record.
> 
> The "+" functions of Sky+ get in the way and you are better off without them.
> 
> Example
> You are watching a recording made by Sky HD (normal or hi-def).
> 
> Then Tivo wants to record something.
> Tivo will blast the IR and you will then be watching what Tivo wants to record.
> 
> I have a mirror sub standard Sky box for Tivo alongside Sky+ (soon to be Sky HD)
> 
> Tivo can then record what it wants when it wants.
> 
> P.S. Where is channel 145?
> 
> Automan.


As I do not have or know Sky+ I can only make assumptions...

If you have preprogrammed something to record on Sky+ and it starts to record, but then you want to watch something on another channel, do you simply change channels on the sky+ in the same way as with a normal sky box? If so, then that suits me fine...

I downloaded the Sky+ manual so I am thinking I had better go and read it


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## Automan

Yes Sky+ or Sky HD+ can record two channels while you are playing back a recording already made or one of the two items its recording time shifted.

Also if in standby and you have a series link for example "The Simpsons" with episodes shown 4 at a time the unit can pad each episode.

e.g.
18:58 start 19:32 end (ep 1) - Tuner #1
19:28 start 20:02 end (ep 2) - Tuner #2
19:58 start 20:32 end (ep 3) - Tuner #1
20:28 start 21:02 end (ep 4) - Tuner #2

Thought Of The Day
Poor hard drive will be pretty busy when recording 2 x HD streams and playing back another 

Automan.


Bakdraft said:


> As I do not have or know Sky+ I can only make assumptions...
> 
> If you have preprogrammed something to record on Sky+ and it starts to record, but then you want to watch something on another channel, do you simply change channels on the sky+ in the same way as with a normal sky box? If so, then that suits me fine...
> 
> I downloaded the Sky+ manual so I am thinking I had better go and read it


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## Bakdraft

Hmm......

From reading the guide... It seems to me that a long as I have programmed the program I want to record ( e.g. a HD program) in Sky + search and scan banner, then it doesn't matter what channel I am on or if I switch to another channel, the search & scan program will still be recorded.

If this is the case, then I can carry on using Tivo as always andjust use the Sky HD box to record the 'other' program..

Or have I got it all wrong??


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## Automan

I think I understand...
However if you want to playback an HD item recorded by Sky HD at the same time Tivo wants to record you will be in trouble.

When Tivo sends the IR code Sky HD will stop playing back your HD program and switch to playing the channel Tivo wants to record.

Thus I have

LNB -> DIGIBOX -> TIVO -> DVD RECORDRER -> TV AV4

LNBx2 -> SKY+ -> DVD RECORDER -> TV AV1

Soon of course

LNB -> DIGIBOX -> TIVO -> DVD RECORDER -> TV AV4

LNBx2 -> SKY HD -> TV HDMI and DVD RECORDER -> TV AV1

Automan.


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## katman

Bakdraft said:


> From reading the guide... It seems to me that a long as I have programmed the program I want to record ( e.g. a HD program) in Sky + search and scan banner, then it doesn't matter what channel I am on or if I switch to another channel, the search & scan program will still be recorded.
> 
> If this is the case, then I can carry on using Tivo as always andjust use the Sky HD box to record the 'other' program..
> 
> Or have I got it all wrong??


You might get away with it provided SKY didnt want to record two consecutive programs on different channels.

eg 104 2100-2200 and 250 2200-2230 whilst Tivo was "watching" something on 520

If you are watching a different channel when SKY+ wants to record two programs (even if they are just overapping because of the padding) it throws up a banner that obliterates most of the screen asking which of the two recordings you want to cancel. If you do nothing it will then change the tuner you are watching to the second recording.

There is probably a way to cancel the banner without losing either of the SKY recordings but I just leave it and let it change having once lost a program I wanted by accidently pressing something on the remote.

Tivo works reliably with a normal SKY box.

SKY+ doesnt work reliably with itself without the added complcation of trying to record on an external piece of kit !!!


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## Bakdraft

Automan said:


> I think I understand...
> However if you want to playback an HD item recorded by Sky HD at the same time Tivo wants to record you will be in trouble.
> 
> When Tivo sends the IR code Sky HD will stop playing back your HD program and switch to playing the channel Tivo wants to record.
> 
> Thus I have
> 
> LNB -> DIGIBOX -> TIVO -> DVD RECORDRER -> TV AV4
> 
> LNBx2 -> SKY+ -> DVD RECORDER -> TV AV1
> 
> Soon of course
> 
> LNB -> DIGIBOX -> TIVO -> DVD RECORDER -> TV AV4
> 
> LNBx2 -> SKY HD -> TV HDMI and DVD RECORDER -> TV AV1
> 
> Automan.


The only thing is that to use my old sky box in addition to the HD box, I have to pay more money to sky for 'multiroom' which I really don't need..... I take it I do have to pay extra..

Going back to your explanation, If indeed in the middle of watching a re-recorded HD program Tivo then sends a channel change to record something, AND then the HD box stops showing me my recorded program, surely I can just go back to the Sky+ menu and can carry on from watching the HD program from where it left off?


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## katman

Bakdraft said:


> Going back to your explanation, If indeed in the middle of watching a re-recorded HD program Tivo then sends a channel change to record something, AND then the HD box stops showing me my recorded program, surely I can just go back to the Sky+ menu and can carry on from watching the HD program from where it left off?


Yes, but if you do that, TiVo wont record the program you wanted it to record because the HD box will be showing your HD recording not the channel you wanted to TiVo !!


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## Bakdraft

katman said:


> Yes, but if you do that, TiVo wont record the program you wanted it to record because the HD box will be showing your HD recording not the channel you wanted to TiVo !!


Aha! I hadn't thought of that! Still I can still Live with watching the HD another time...

With only 12 days to install I am having to think about these things...


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## katman

Why dont you just record the program on the SKY box in the first place ?

You can record twice as much as you can ever view because it has two tuners but only one MPEG decoder for viewing/playback.

Record 2 progs bacause you are out - 2 recordings to watch

watch one recording whilst recording two others - 3 recordings to watch

watch one recording whilst recording two others - 4 recordings to watch

Worst of all, with only a single box, you lose the ability for any family member to watch live SKY whilst anyone is playing back a recording. 

I havent gone for HD yet, I have SKY+ because the subscription is free with my package and I have a multiroom sub for the old SKY box for £10 per month. I also have a FreeToAir satellite receiver bought from Lidl for £35 which can also access some of the channels on Astra.


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## Bakdraft

katman said:


> Why dont you just record the program on the SKY box in the first place ?
> 
> You can record twice as much as you can ever view because it has two tuners but only one MPEG decoder for viewing/playback.
> 
> Record 2 progs bacause you are out - 2 recordings to watch
> 
> watch one recording whilst recording two others - 3 recordings to watch
> 
> watch one recording whilst recording two others - 4 recordings to watch
> 
> Worst of all, with only a single box, you lose the ability for any family member to watch live SKY whilst anyone is playing back a recording.
> 
> I havent gone for HD yet, I have SKY+ because the subscription is free with my package and I have a multiroom sub for the old SKY box for £10 per month. I also have a FreeToAir satellite receiver bought from Lidl for £35 which can also access some of the channels on Astra.


All true and valid points... but failing to mention that rubbish EPG. OK I guess I will give it a try... but I love the Tivo guide much more...


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## katman

Bakdraft said:


> All true and valid points... but failing to mention that rubbish EPG. OK I guess I will give it a try... but I love the Tivo guide much more...


OK. you started it 

The SKY EPG is total **** 

As if it wasnt bad enough that half the time you have to press "i" to find out the title of the program bacause the 5 or 6 letters you can see arent enough, you will discover that if you do that when two recordings are in progress you get a banner saying "Program Synopsis not available whilst two recordings are in progress" or words to that effect. 

If you pause live TV so that you are living even slightly in the past, you cant use the EPG unless you cancel pause mode so you will miss what is currently on whilst looking at the guide. It also clears the buffer so you cant rewind afte you have used the EPG.

My personal preference would be for two TiVo's with their own SKY boxes rather than SKY+

What annoys me the most about digital TV is that because Murdock has got satellite well and truely stiched up, even if you own suficient equipment to allow viewing of several channels at the same time, unless you fork out another £10 per month per box you cant watch it. OK so SKY now has 100's of channels but you can still only view one at once without paying time and time again.

Back in the good old analogue days I had a 90cm dish with two dual LNB's pointing at Astra 19o and Eutelsat 13o. I had a global switch and a satellite receiver in each room and I could watch whatever I wanted apart from SKY.

I had a £24 subscription that gave me movies but I rarely watched any as there were programs that we wanted to see on other channels. I tried to get a second card for a nominal fee (sort of like Multiroom is now) but they wouldnt do it so in the end I downgraded my subscription to £12 per month for Multichannels only and took out a second Multichannels sub. I was paying the same as before but now I could receive twice as much but obviously now couldnt get the movies even if I wanted to.


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## JeromeO'Donohoe

you can use search & scan while in pause though, surely?


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## eric23

chimaera said:


> True, but TiVo was the first PVR to market in the UK, and their promotion of its wide range of benefits was... practically non-existent.


I'd like to slap the person that decided "pause live TV" was the thing to shout about.


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## JeromeO'Donohoe

I don't think so...it's the snappiest description of one of the major features. A bit neater than "records everything you want to watch, automatically, unless you're wanting to see another sky channel" 

Pausing live tv is the one feature that makes people like my parents go "Huh? how did you do that?"


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## eric23

How about:

"Run your own television channel"
"Don't be held hostage by the TV schedules"
"All of your favourite programmes, ready to play at the touch of a button"

I hardly ever pause live TV, because, duh I never watch live TV! They should have focused on how TiVo would completely change your relationship with your TV.

I'm sorry, but, you can't debate that they got the marketing completely wrong here in the UK. People understand what Sky+ does, and that's all because of the concise, omni-present marketing. Back in the day when TiVo was being promoted, when I mentioned TiVo to people, most said they had never heard of it but if they had, it would be "something about pausing television" - they didn't really understand how that insignificant little feature (insignificant to the rest of what it can do!) could improve their lives.


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## Major dude

Now the BBC has announced that the World cup & Wimbledon will be available in HD, I was re-evaluating having Sky + with two basic packages and one premier package having paid £299 for the HD box. I read that you can buy the HD box from Sky for £399 without having to subscribe. However this option does not feature on the Sky website.

Does anyone know any more about this?


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## 6022tivo

It may of been mentioned before, but take a look at

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds33072.html

Some pictures of a Nice Sports channel, (nice grass).

Interesting to see the options regarding screen output resolution and a audio delay???


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## Heuer

Disappointment for some and good news for others:

http://ir.telewest.co.uk/phoenix.zhtml?c=76808&p=irol-newsArticle&t=Regular&id=856279&

http://www.itvplc.com/itv/news/releases/pr2006/2006-05-15a/


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## cwaring

Old news now 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4034296&&#post4034296


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## Bakdraft

Having just read on the AVS forum, that someone had phoned up to confirm their installation date and found out their date had been moved.... I thought I had better check mine.

Well... they have moved it. It was 24th May... they have now moved it to 2nd June!!!    

They also said it had happened today, they sent a letter out today and had credited me with £20 to my account as a goodwill gesture.

They said it would happen to 100's of booked intallations..  

Lucky I rang up as re-arrnging my holiday is not easy.

As they did not bother to phone up I guess the rest of us unlucky one will only find out when the letter drops on the floor!!!

Well done SKY... it better be worth it... :down:


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## 6022tivo

After my Sky+ episode a couple of years ago, I am sticking to my tivo.

I will give Sky HD a go when the price drops a little. I am no longer a Sky customer, but get all sorts of great offers coming through the post. I think offers may start coming Pre Christmas of maybe a box for £199 with a sub. I may be tempted, for the free stuff. But will wait and see for now. I feel that the people getting the unit now are going to be Sky's Beta testers... 

Good Luck.


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## cwaring

6022tivo said:


> I feel that the people getting the unit now are going to be Sky's Beta testers...


How odd. Some TVDrive users have said the same thing


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## Bakdraft

So the consensus of opinion is that SKY only had enough boxes to fulfill day 1 i.e. 22nd... there after .... they ran out... supplier problems.... they say.

The 22nd is the only date where people have not been altered... thereafter it's patchy... 

My concern is that they may move me a second time...  

Clearly SKY do not know how to manage a project...


----------



## OzSat

It is not surprising - but very annoying.

I called them yesterday and spoke to four different people and got four different explanations of my install. It was only the last call where they told me what I wanted to hear.

However, my install date of 23rd May is still unchanged (as of 1.15pm) today.

What is surpising is that it is not one-or-two installs that have been cancelled - but appears to be hundreds! :down:



Bakdraft said:


> Having just read on the AVS forum, that someone had phoned up to confirm their installation date and found out their date had been moved.... I thought I had better check mine.
> 
> Well... they have moved it. It was 24th May... they have now moved it to 2nd June!!!
> 
> They also said it had happened today, they sent a letter out today and had credited me with £20 to my account as a goodwill gesture.
> 
> They said it would happen to 100's of booked intallations..
> 
> Lucky I rang up as re-arrnging my holiday is not easy.
> 
> As they did not bother to phone up I guess the rest of us unlucky one will only find out when the letter drops on the floor!!!
> 
> Well done SKY... it better be worth it... :down:


----------



## AMc

Not that surprising to me - if they have the initial small order of boxes sitting in their warehouse waiting for installations and the next shipment of many more boxes is delayed then they will have to shuffle everyone back but they can still 'officially' commence installs on the day they said. Looks good to the shareholders...


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## Bakdraft

AMc said:


> Not that surprising to me - if they have the initial small order of boxes sitting in their warehouse waiting for installations and the next shipment of many more boxes is delayed then they will have to shuffle everyone back but they can still 'officially' commence installs on the day they said. Looks good to the shareholders...


I think you're dead right about that... so it seems Gary has got my box.... Gary, can I have it back please?


----------

