# HR10-250 and Off-Air Antenna



## sendsley (Feb 27, 2002)

Is it just my HR10-250 is does the off-air antenna input just suck?

Just got the new HR10-250 and a new Mitsubishi WD-57731

I'll skip the details of trying this antenna, that antenna, tweaking these settings and location because it doesn't really apply to the bottom line of my question/concern.

If I plug the same exact antenna into the HR10-250 and then on my TV directly (not a split signal, unplugged from one after testing then to the other) the signal strength and ability to hold a quality picture without dropping it is FAR superior when plugged directly into my TV than plugged into the HR10-250 antenna in. It's very frustrating.

I can get all over the air channels (6 in all) with an antenna to be very strong when plugged into my TV direct. Hook that exact same feed into the HR10-250 directly and only 2 channels are that strong, with 2 not getting picked up at all and the other 2 constantly coming in and out. Same exact antenna that was just working great when plugged into the TV.

Do I have a defective unit or is this just yet another flaw in the HR10-250 receiver??

Thanks in advance for any info!!


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## marcello696 (Jun 18, 2004)

I have notcied that the signal stength on my HR10 is sufficient but is about 10% lower than going directly into my Mits 62628. It seems yours is far worse though. I guess it wouldnt hurt to get a 2nd unit just to verify


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## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

"Just another flaw in the HR10-250" is a statement I don't agree with at all. This is one of the best components I've ever used. It does everything well, including OTA HD via an attic mounted antenna to Green Bay 50 miles from my house. The only thing I wish it had is Firewire outputs or another way to record programs in HD on my DVHS JVC deck. 

I think this board and others acknowlege the HR10-250 TIVO to be the best available. Anyone disagree?


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

I had a similar problem. The tuners on my Hughes HTL-HD, voom box, LG LST-3510A and the Directv H20 all got more channels with better strength than the HR10-250. I asked for an in warranty replacement and the advanced replacement unit they sent me had even worse reception for over the air. I finally opened up the box and wondereed if the problem might be where the ota signal comes into the HR10-250 or in the interior cabling that runs from the back panel connection to the 2 tuners inside the unit. I tried hooking up the OTA antenna leads directly to the ATSC tuners inside the box and all my reception problems were eliminated. I tried replacing the cables from the back panel to the ATSC tuners without success so my conclusion is that the problem for me was occurring when the HR10-250 split the OTA signal to the 2 ATSC tuners. Now I just feed the signal into the box directly by running a cables through a vent hole and directly connecting to the ATSC tuners.

Check out this old thread for other possibilities: 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290785


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## sendsley (Feb 27, 2002)

> "Just another flaw in the HR10-250" is a statement I don't agree with at all.
> I think this board and others acknowlege the HR10-250 TIVO to be the best available. Anyone disagree?


Perhaps a poor choice of words, and certainly anything DTV specific will not be nearly as good. But the speed of the guide is pathetic and I have read many, many posts with HDMI connection issues now this so at this point I'm not overly impressed.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

boneskrw said:


> I think this board and others acknowlege the HR10-250 TIVO to be the best available. Anyone disagree?


The HR10-250 is the best High Definition TiVo, hands down.

The HR10-250 is the worst Hight Definition TiVo, hands down.

The HR10-250 is the *ONLY* High Definition TiVo,
so it's hard not to be both of the above.

Overly sensative tuners, both satellite and OTA.
Extremely slow interface, be it the guide, searching for a program, adding or removing a season pass, just slow.

It's pretty good but it could be so much better.

phox


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Since the OTA signal is being split so that you can watch/record 2 OTA HD programs at one time, the SS will be weaker than hooking it straight into the tuner on your HDTV.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

I have my OTA split between the H10-250 and another receiver and have had no problems whatsoever.

In fact, the signal is much more stable on my H10-250 than on my old Samsung receiver. 

I also have to disagree with the statements I've read in this forum about the tuners being easily overloaded. I live less than 6 miles from the towers in Baltmore, and my old Samsung got so overloaded, I had to add a signal attenuator to the line just to get all the networks from that 1 tower. Now with the H10-250, I've eliminated the attenuator, and everything looks great. I even started to pick up PBS, which I could never get on my Samsung. All this with the same antenna.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

boneskrw said:


> I think this board and others acknowlege the HR10-250 TIVO to be the best available. Anyone disagree?


"Best available" != "good quality product."

Despite it being the best HD DVR on the market, the areas that could be improved upon in the HR10-250 are numerous. The OTA tuner being just one example.


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## hoopsrgreat (Jan 2, 2005)

I ran my OTA to the splitter used by the cable company. Since I dont have cable, I disconnected the cable line and ran the antenna to the "In" on the splitter. I now am using outlets throughtout the house to get my OTA signal. The HR10-250 is connected to the OTA from one of the several outlets in the house and I have no problems with my OTA signal.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Sir_whinealot said:


> Since the OTA signal is being split so that you can watch/record 2 OTA HD programs at one time, the SS will be weaker than hooking it straight into the tuner on your HDTV.


Not exactly. There is a RF distribution amplifier module that is the first thing the RF signal sees inside the Tivo, which is designed to reamplify the signal so that the tuners see what would be seen by direct connection to a single tuner. Not only that, but you must be in a rare fringe situation for a signal reduction of 3 dB to make much if any difference. The RFDA is just to compensate for that difference only because the tuner is designed originally for direct input, and dual tuners would halve the signal without the RDFA, which optimizes the design as applied within the HR10.

In fact, there is much speculation that the RFDA is too strong, which could account for the sensitivity to overload. More than one poster on this forum has improved reception by bypassing the RFDA and simply using a splitter, but it could also easily be the attenuation affect of the splitter that is making the difference.

Substitute "limitation" for "flaw" and the earlier remark is a bit easier to live with.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> Not exactly. There is a RF distribution amplifier module that is the first thing the RF signal sees inside the Tivo, which is designed to reamplify the signal so that the tuners see what would be seen by direct connection to a single tuner. Not only that, but you must be in a rare fringe situation for a signal reduction of 3 dB to make much if any difference. The RFDA is just to compensate for that difference only because the tuner is designed originally for direct input, and dual tuners would halve the signal without the RDFA, which optimizes the design as applied within the HR10.
> 
> In fact, there is much speculation that the RFDA is too strong, which could account for the sensitivity to overload. More than one poster on this forum has improved reception by bypassing the RFDA and simply using a splitter, but it could also easily be the attenuation affect of the splitter that is making the difference.
> 
> Substitute "limitation" for "flaw" and the earlier remark is a bit easier to live with.


Thanks for clearing that up TS...apparently I was misinformed!  The fact that I currently have my antenna feeding into a RS 6-way splitter feeding TV's all over my house before it reaches my HR10/250 w/no discernable reduction in signal strength, should've tipped me off to that fact.


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## sendsley (Feb 27, 2002)

I have a 4x8 multi-switch that feeds the 8 receivers in my house, if I hook up an OTA antenna to the switch do I then need diplexers at the receiver to split the signal - will that work? That's a lot of diplexers. I thought I had read that wasn't recommended. Thanks


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

sendsley said:


> I have a 4x8 multi-switch that feeds the 8 receivers in my house, if I hook up an OTA antenna to the switch do I then need diplexers at the receiver to split the signal - will that work? That's a lot of diplexers. I thought I had read that wasn't recommended. Thanks


A 4X8 multiswitch doesn't have an input for an over the air antenna. You would need a 5X8 multiswitch. In such a case you would only need to use a diplexer if you use the over the air antenna signal on the other end. For example, the HR10-250 has two satellite inputs and one OTA antenna input. You would only need one diplexer inside to split off the OTA signal from the satellite signal, the second satellite input will not need to have the signal split and will ignore the OTA signal.

As an alternative to a 5X8 switch, you can use one diplexer after the multiswitch to join OTA and satellite on an outside line of cable and use one diplexer inside on the corresponding cable for each OTA antenna signal you need.


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## sendsley (Feb 27, 2002)

poppagene said:


> A 4X8 multiswitch doesn't have an input for an over the air antenna. You would need a 5X8 multiswitch.


Sorry I meant 5x8. Thanks for the info.


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## annenoe (Oct 19, 2003)

sendsley said:


> Is it just my HR10-250 is does the off-air antenna input just suck?
> 
> Just got the new HR10-250 and a new Mitsubishi WD-57731
> 
> ...


I can't find it right now but absolutely remember this thread somewhere. I am too having exactly the same issue. Plugged into TV direct, great signal on every channel, plugged into HR10-250, discernable loss of signal. You're not crazy and you're not the only one.

I wish I could find that thread!! but fix was some sort of fix that installed better tuner in the HR10-250.


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

boneskrw said:


> "Just another flaw in the HR10-250" is a statement I don't agree with at all. This is one of the best components I've ever used. It does everything well, including OTA HD via an attic mounted antenna to Green Bay 50 miles from my house. The only thing I wish it had is Firewire outputs or another way to record programs in HD on my DVHS JVC deck.
> 
> I think this board and others acknowlege the HR10-250 TIVO to be the best available. Anyone disagree?


Yes. The OTA tuner capabilities or lack thereof are well-documented in this forum. Basically, OTA sucks.

Gee, did I just fall for a troll?


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

With my OTA antenna plugged directly into the Sony television I get 8 HD channels. Using the HD tuner in the HR10-250 to feed the set I get 3. FWIW.


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## DeDondeEs (Feb 20, 2004)

I had the same problem. If I hook a set of rabbit ears directly into my Sony TV, I get all of the stations with decent signal strength (70-80). If I hook the rabbit ears into the HR10-250, I only get two channels, and they cut out alot. But I live in Las Vegas where most of the HD channels are VHF. So my solution was to go to Radio Shack and buy the biggest and ugliest antenna they had, and mount it in my attic, now I get signal levels over 90 on every channel. I read a post in another forum where someone said if it doesn't look like an antenna, it's not going to work like an antenna. Good advice..

The only thing I can think of is that the HR10-250 is older by HDTV standards. Perhaps the newer TV's have better tuning technology?


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

DeDondeEs said:


> ...I read a post in another forum where someone said if it doesn't look like an antenna, it's not going to work like an antenna. Good advice..
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that the HR10-250 is older by HDTV standards. Perhaps the newer TV's have better tuning technology?


That IS good advice under qualified circumstances, but the antenna you choose must still be matched to the particular reception scenario for things to work well. I am 20 miles away and get perfect reception on a 79-cent dipole taped to a window (of course an amp, fm trap, and variable attenuator contribute to even higher numbers). Also, the Winegard SquareShooter doesn't look much like an antenna, but it sure performs like one. And some of the best antennae, like the CM 4228, are smaller and much simpler than the monster $150 RatShack antenna that is some 16 feet long and half as wide, and in most cases the CM runs rings around the RS.

Since most 2005-6 HD sets have 4th-gen tuners and since they typically perform better than the HR10, my sneaking suspicion is that the tuner in the HR10 is a 3rd-gen or earlier. I have a lot of experience with 1st/2nd-gen tuners in an urban setting (impossible without line of sight), and today's tuners are a huge improvement. The 5th-gen NeXtWave tuner in Zenith and LG sets, and rumored to be in the HR20, are even significantly better than the 4th-gen in today's Sonys and others.

The improvements have mostly been in the area of active EQ, which is how a 8VSB tuner rejects multipath interference. Other than the terrain issues themselves, the sophistication of the tuner regarding active EQ is probably the most important thing determining possibility of reception. But this is mostly outside our control. For instance, if you want the HR10, you get the mediocre tuner as a part of the deal. That makes the antenna system the most important thing that we have control over.


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## Chargerdan (Dec 10, 2004)

I agree that the tuner on the HD TiVo is sub-par but it can be made tp perform better. 

If you guys with problems want to experiment with your box you can do what I did. Now granted I own the box I did this to. If you lease you may want to think a little more about it before you open it up.

I narrowed the problem to the internal splitter in the box. It would give different signal strengths for a channel during the OTA test. Not just a couple of points but 10-20 points. I removed the cover and the signal would go up higher for both tuners and be even. Soon as the cover went on it went back down. I thought about using a different material (non-metal) to replace the cover but that wasn't a good solution. 

To avoid the bad splitter I bypassed it and feed the 2 internal tuners directly from the OTA cable. The signals went up higher than ever before and didn't change when I put the top back on.

So if you want to see if the internal splitter is the problem just try and feed the internal tuners directly and see if that helps.


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## Fineas (May 24, 2004)

I have had similar problems. I have one of the very first units from 2004. I live in S. Florida and am about 8 miles from the transmitters. I can get most of my networks using an amplified Terk indoor antenna. I have never been able to get a good signal from our NBC station, but I can get the NBC New York feed, so I havent' been too concerned about it.

I had removed the outer enclosure several months ago because of an HDMI issue, and never bothered to re-screw the screws. So after reading the posts in this thread, I tried to go directly from the antenna to the internal tuner, bypassing the splitter.

The coax connectors at the tuner were very tight. I couldn't unscrew them by hand and had to loosen them with a wrench. When I then went directly into the internal tuners, my reception improved slightly. 

I then decided to try something else. I removed the window screen and stuck my antenna outside through the window. again, my signal on all channels improved. I then decided it was time to give up on the indoor antenna andn ordered a Winegard Square Shooter online.

I then decided to reconnect everything as it originally was, and reconncted the internal splitter. i brought the antenna back inside and plugged it into the back of hte unit, exactly as it has been for the last 2 years. 

Like magic, all of my channels are now in the 80-90's includign NBC.

I am no technician, but it appears the mere act of loosening the connections at the internal tuner, then reconnecting them but tightnening only by hand (not with the wrench) has made a huge difference.

So while I do not necessarily advocate everyone taking their units apart, It does seem to have made a great difference for me.


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