# What could possibly be holding up the S3?



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Based upon how quickly my company tries to get new products to the market I can't imagine what could possibly be taking so long. Assume that the demos that were shown at previous shows were not total fakes (and I have seen demos at shows where you were not allowed to look behind the curtain!) what could TiVo be doing?

* Waiting for certification? Isn't this done already?
* Beta testing the sh$& out of it? Either their required level of maturity is way too high or there are tons of beta problems that need to get fixed?
* Hardware problems that require re-designs?
* To be honest, I cant think of any others?

Your thoughts?


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

How about, selling a bunch of DT's


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Based upon how quickly my company tries to get new products to the market I can't imagine what could possibly be taking so long. Assume that the demos that were shown at previous shows were not total fakes (and I have seen demos at shows where you were not allowed to look behind the curtain!) what could TiVo be doing?
> 
> * Waiting for certification? Isn't this done already?
> * Beta testing the sh$& out of it? Either their required level of maturity is way too high or there are tons of beta problems that need to get fixed?
> ...


I would guess that TiVo has to build up a supply of units before the release, they are not DELL. Before they build the first (100,000 ??) Series 3s they want to be sure the hardware is working in all aspects leaving only software as a means to fix problems and add features. The units are not built in this country so it takes time from the ordering of the build to getting them to the retailers before release. Remember the 649 DT showing up before TiVos release, I will bet they don't want that to happen again.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

My guess would be beta testing the crap out of it.

If it's set for release in the general time frame Pony said (and I noticed he's sticking by that as of a couple days ago), I would think that manufacturing would have to be ramping up now, or very, very soon, in order to get the S3 out there.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Your thoughts?


You had to ask. Maybe the fat cats at TiVo are too wrapped up with lounging on silk pillows and being fanned by eunuch boys while they are hand fed dates by the odalisques in the TiVo Executive Seraglio to worry about overseeing the development and release of new products.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

ah30k said:


> Based upon how quickly my company tries to get new products to the market I can't imagine what could possibly be taking so long. Assume that the demos that were shown at previous shows were not total fakes (and I have seen demos at shows where you were not allowed to look behind the curtain!) what could TiVo be doing?
> 
> * Waiting for certification? Isn't this done already?
> * Beta testing the sh$& out of it? Either their required level of maturity is way too high or there are tons of beta problems that need to get fixed?
> ...


Nothing is holding up the S3. It's summertime.

Wait till fall, with kids back in school, people getting back to their non-vacation schedules and thinking more about mundane things like watching TV. Attention will focus on snazzy new HDTV sets offered for the holidays, and maybe a new TiVo which can record HD to go with it!


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> Nothing is holding up the S3. It's summertime.
> 
> Wait till fall, with kids back in school, people getting back to their non-vacation schedules and thinking more about mundane things like watching TV. Attention will focus on snazzy new HDTV sets offered for the holidays, and maybe a new TiVo which can record HD to go with it!


This is all consumer focused stuff. Companies' still produce product in the summer!


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

ah30k said:


> This is all consumer focused stuff. Companies' still produce product in the summer!


(Of course all of this is just opinion.)

IMHO, companies may produce but are less likely to introduce an indoor product during the outdoor season.

Marketing 101. YMMV.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Nothing is holding up the S3. It's summertime.
> 
> Wait till fall, with kids back in school, people getting back to their non-vacation schedules and thinking more about mundane things like watching TV. Attention will focus on snazzy new HDTV sets offered for the holidays, and maybe a new TiVo which can record HD to go with it!


Well, school is underway here in Plano, TX. Time to find the route to work with the least number of schools zones again! Since school is back in session, its time for me to take a VACATION!!!!


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

> What could possibly be holding up the S3?


They said second half of 2006. That gives you another four and a half or five months before you can legitimately start talking about something "holding up" the release of the S3.

Until then, there is no point in speculating. No one promised you anything before December 31 2006. You've waited this long, another four or five months will make no difference in the greater scheme of things.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Prison Break's new season premiere is now in the guide. The new season is officially beginning.

And still not even an annoucement of the Series3 release date 

TiVo is really screwing the pooch on this one if they miss the fall season launch...


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

dmdeane said:


> Until then, be quiet. No one promised you anything before December 31 2006. You've waited this long, another four or five months will make no difference in the greater scheme of things.


I am discussing what could take so long from working demos to deployment. If you don't want to participate in the discusion don't!


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

ah30k said:


> I am discussing what could take so long from working demos to deployment. If you don't want to participate in the discusion don't!


I edited my post to make it a bit less harsh. Still, my point stands. You have no reason to expect the S3 to be released any time soon, so you are speculating on a non-issue. Since your thread is based on false premises, we are going to discuss your false premises. That's part of the discussion, too.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ah30k said:


> Your thoughts?


cablecard - it is a 3rd party piece of hardware from many different cable companies. That will be tested to death.

so as to your specific "What is holding up the S3?"
A beta testers cabinet - is my guess


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think Zeo is onto something. CableCARD is still relatively new technology and this is TiVo's first venture into that technology. So it's probably something they're going to really want to test to make sure they got it right before unleashing it onto the public.

Dan


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

cwoody222 said:


> Prison Break's new season premiere is now in the guide. The new season is officially beginning.


I set up my first SP for the new season last night and remembered I had planned this to be done on an S3. I really really wanted to watch the new season in HD but I think it looks like TiVo are going to let me down.


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## SystemJinx (Aug 13, 2005)

I'm going to get an S3, but I don't want one until they are ready to ship. Let them work the bugs out of the system.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

One word: 7.3.

Or is that 3 words?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Maybe the first shipment of S3 units was on that cargo ship that tipped over in the Alaska straits a month ago.... Nah! That's TOO unlucky! 

My vote is TiVo is still coordinating with local MSOs to get the word out about cable cards and installation for the S3.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> One word: 7.3.
> 
> Or is that 3 words?


S3 will be a different code base, most likely branched off the main one before 7.3 if they even felt it worth using the series 2 code base to start for such different hardware


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

drew2k said:


> Maybe the first shipment of S3 units was on that cargo ship that tipped over in the Alaska straits a month ago.... Nah! That's TOO unlucky!


I believe they are manufacturered in Mexico so if they were on a ship in Alaska it was WAY of course. 

Dan


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

dmdeane said:


> They said second half of 2006. That gives you another four and a half or five months before you can legitimately start talking about something "holding up" the release of the S3.


They had a unit suitable for Cablelabs certification months ago and showed the prototype at CES before that. 'hold up' is relative to product development time, not when they said they would release it.

The delay is probably a combination of things, it's still not a sure thing that they'll sell it at all (otherwise why would product announcement be event we are all waiting for?).


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## scerruti (Jul 11, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> Nothing is holding up the S3. It's summertime.
> 
> Wait till fall, with kids back in school, people getting back to their non-vacation schedules and thinking more about mundane things like watching TV. Attention will focus on snazzy new HDTV sets offered for the holidays, and maybe a new TiVo which can record HD to go with it!


I don't buy into the holiday argument.

If I think TiVo, I think 30 second skip, I think football. 
If I think HD, I think HD sporting events, I think football.

I want my HDTV and S3 for the start of football, but past advertising campaigns have shown that it's during football season that people realize they need HDTV and they need TiVo. I think it's either just a coincidence or a clever marketing ploy that Christmas is scheduled during college bowl season and just prior to the NFL postseason.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

vman41 said:


> ...it's still not a sure thing that they'll sell it at all ....


Wrong...see sig.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> You had to ask. Maybe the fat cats at TiVo are too wrapped up with lounging on silk pillows and being fanned by eunuch boys while they are hand fed dates by the odalisques in the TiVo Executive Seraglio to worry about overseeing the development and release of new products.


Perhaps you're attempting to be facetious, but your post is not far from the truth.

Another way to look at it is: *another day, another $6640.*

That amount is the daily salary paid to Rogers, Barton, and Ramsay, the top three TiVo executives, assuming they're each working 250 days a year.

I sure don't see a lot of results coming out of TiVo for that money.

Just my opinion.


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

ah30k said:


> Based upon how quickly my company tries to get new products to the market I can't imagine what could possibly be taking so long. Assume that the demos that were shown at previous shows were not total fakes (and I have seen demos at shows where you were not allowed to look behind the curtain!) what could TiVo be doing?
> 
> * Waiting for certification? Isn't this done already?
> * Beta testing the sh$& out of it? Either their required level of maturity is way too high or there are tons of beta problems that need to get fixed?
> ...


What does your company make ?

Maybe some people from your company should take over the TiVo S3 project and get it in the stores by next weekend.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I think Zeo is onto something. CableCARD is still relatively new technology and this is TiVo's first venture into that technology. So it's probably something they're going to really want to test to make sure they got it right before unleashing it onto the public.
> 
> Dan


Sony's discontinued but still available DHG-HDD single tuner *hi-def DVRs* have been around for over a year and a half and use a cable card with two (cable and OTA) coax inputs and no line inputs. I wonder if Sony's DVR can integrate OTA with digital cable EPG listings using the flexible but limited TV Guide OS?

How well do the Sony's work using a cable card? I don't know but I bet TiVo's development team does.

LG's discontinued single tuner hi-def DVR sacrifices hi-def premium channels for PPV and VOD accessibility via cable box control and line inputs, but apparently then rescales the resulting standard-def to faux 1080i. Sony and TiVo hi-def purists probably puke but we trollish slugs sure dig low tech flexibility!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The S3 is the ONLY device ever created that uses two CableCARDs to create a single dual tuner device. So it's a whole new animal when compared to those devices.

Dan


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Perhaps you're attempting to be facetious, but your post is not far from the truth.
> 
> Another way to look at it is: *another day, another $6640.*
> 
> ...


For TiVo's Executive Compensation click on *SEC Filings* and search for "executive compensation"; then click on the latest *Definitive Proxy Statement* and scroll down about a third of the way to *Summary of Executive Compensation*.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> The S3 is the ONLY device ever created that uses two CableCARDs to create a single dual tuner device. So it's a whole new animal when compared to those devices.
> 
> Dan


*"May the Force Be With Them"*

*or maybe...*


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Another way to look at it is: *another day, another $6640.*
> 
> That amount is the daily salary paid to Rogers, Barton, and Ramsay, the top three TiVo executives, assuming they're each working 250 days a year.


Damn, I think I need a new job.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

davezatz said:


> Damn, I think I need a new job.


Me too! Were do I sign up to be the CEO of a major corporation? I mean according to Chucky all they do is sit around and eat grapes all day while raking in some serious dough. 

Dan


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## james.92 (Jul 18, 2006)

ah30k said:


> F&^$ you! I am discussing what could take so long from working demos to deployment. If you don't want to participate in the discusion don't!


Man, this is such a pleasant place today.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> The S3 is the ONLY device ever created that uses two CableCARDs to create a single dual tuner device. So it's a whole new animal when compared to those devices.
> 
> Dan


What do you see as especially problematic about synchronizing two tuners which utilize CableCards as against two tuners which don't? (I'm not saying that there aren't problems, but do you believe that CableCards are intrinsically tricky and/or that cable companies have (perhaps inadvertantly) created potential traps for CableCARD DVR's?)

I've got to admit that I don't like current CableCARD limitations. Right now it seems an incomplete solution to digital cable access.


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## OldTownTreadles (Mar 15, 2006)

ah30k said:


> *What could possibly be holding up the S3?*
> 
> * To be honest, I cant think of any others?
> 
> Your thoughts?


*Suspenders?*


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## slowmo (Aug 5, 2006)

I think no one would be so impatient if not for TiVo's poor history re: delivering new products on time. Heck they had to announce the HD D* box at 2 annual CES shows!

Regardless, let's keep the conversation relevant to the box. If I really need a refresher on '34 Act filing requirements for a public company, I'm not coming to this site!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Actually, their history would be a rational basis for *being patient*, not for being impatient.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

DirectTV has paid off TiVo to hold the release of the S3 until subscribers have paid for one last season of Sunday Ticket. Once the S3 comes out all the D* subs who want HD can then cancel D* and switch to cable. So, just wait until the NFL season starts.

Or, just wait until the end of the year, but most likely sometime in November if everything goes as planned.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Bierboy said:


> Wrong...see sig.


Pony's comments have been wrong before...see sig.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

cwoody222 said:


> Pony's comments have been wrong before...see sig.


Ah, but any of the four mid months of 2006 could be considered mid-2006...  ...for that matter, any of the 10 mid months of 2006 could be considered mid-2006...


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## mmarionsd (Oct 8, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I think Zeo is onto something. CableCARD is still relatively new technology and this is TiVo's first venture into that technology. So it's probably something they're going to really want to test to make sure they got it right before unleashing it onto the public.
> 
> Dan


Not to mention that from what I've heard... CableCARD support from our local cable company isn't exactly stellar. It's likely about the same at most companies as well. I have a friend who's burned through several cards that started acting up, and he only got replacements quickly because we happen to work close to the cable office and can swing by and swap out things without having to wait for them to come by.

I've read articles where people also suggest that the whole technology will die before it really takes off since v1 doesn't allow the 2way stuff (on demand) that the cable companies make a lot of money off of, and v2 might not take off before something better. I forget what that is, but there's at least one technology to replace it already in the works and is much more to the cable companies and studio's liking as they get more control.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo Troll said:


> What do you see as especially problematic about synchronizing two tuners which utilize CableCards as against two tuners which don't? (I'm not saying that there aren't problems, but do you believe that CableCards are intrinsically tricky and/or that cable companies have (perhaps inadvertantly) created potential traps for CableCARD DVR's?)


Actually the S3 is a hybrid. It support either a single multi-stream card in slot #1 or two single stream cards in slot #1 and #2. I can't claim to know how complicated that is to acomplish, but it's never been done before so I doubt it's easy.

Plus, like mmarionsd said, CableCARD itself is not without problems and since the S3 is so inherently dependant on them working correctly I'm betting TiVo is putting in as much work as possible to make sure they can keep them as reliable as possible.

Dan


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## jshore (Aug 18, 2003)

It would be nice to replace my crappy SA 8300HD box from Cox with a shiny new S3 in time for the fall shows. Get my season passes all set up, watch some TIVO HD football games in about 1/2 the time of real time, etc., etc.


Does seem Tivo is missing yet another opportunity if S3 is not out in time for fall shows. 

Of course, I've been waiting for tivo-to-go for mac for quite a while now, so waiting for months on end for a promised TIVO product/service is nothing new.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I think TiVo would be missing an opportunity if the Series 3 is not out in time for Christmas.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

bicker said:


> I think TiVo would be missing an opportunity if the Series 3 is not out in time for Christmas.


IMHO Christmas may not be the big sales point for them. If the S3 is to be high end then a lot people will see it as too expensive for a gift. They need to grab all the high end purchasers that are setting up now systems ready for the fall season.

I'm sure I'm not the only one buying an HDTV for this fall season and not Christmas. I don't want a cable DVR but it looks like I'm going to end up with one as a stop gap. I know I will buy an S3 even if it is as late as Christmas but I wonder how many people will make do with a Cable DVR once they get it installed and running. How can I be certain I won't be one of them, after all I already have other TiVo's to get broadband content and transfer stuff to my iPOD etc. All I really need is a box to record stuff I want to watch in HD on my HDTV. I can still record the same stuff on my other TiVo to use in my SD environment.


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## TravisKU (Nov 26, 2001)

bicker said:


> I think TiVo would be missing an opportunity if the Series 3 is not out in time for Christmas.


I think they are going to missing a lot if they don't have it out by the start of the new fall season. My wife and I like to record entire seasons of shows and let this sit untill re-run season hits.

Travis


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Absolutely. Anything beyond early September is too late. (I really think anything beyond mid-August is too late, but doesn't look like that will happen).

The big tech gift for Christmas is going to be the PS3 - Tivo can't afford to compete with that.

Tivo has to get the S3 out in time for the fall TV season and get it out well ahead of the Comcast/Tivo option.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

As harsh as the TivoCommunity criticism has been of all the non-Tivo DVR's recently released maybe Tivo is just scared to release it. I mean what if they accidentally left out a single feature that someone here thinks is a "deal breaker " for them.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> ...maybe Tivo is just scared to release it....


Surely, you jest.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

nhaigh said:


> They need to grab all the high end purchasers that are setting up now systems ready for the fall season.


It's an interesting perspective, but if they felt that way, they would have aimed for a 3Q release, instead of a 2H release.



> I'm sure I'm not the only one buying an HDTV for this fall season and not Christmas.


I'm sure I'm not the only one who bought an HDTV in the late Spring. Individuals like you and I really don't make much of a difference, though, and as much as there would seem to be much logic in buying televisions and television-related equipment in advance of the new television season, that actually affects a relatively small number of purchasing decisions. There are still a lot of people out there, even TiVo owners, who still question why shows have reruns over the summer.



> I don't want a cable DVR but it looks like I'm going to end up with one as a stop gap.


It's actually a great stop-gap for me because there is no financial investment on my party; I just pay the monthly fee and I can cancel at any time. :up:



> I know I will buy an S3 even if it is as late as Christmas but I wonder how many people will make do with a Cable DVR once they get it installed and running.


I think TiVo has more to worry about with the comparison between "free plus $10 per month" versus "$500 plus $16 per month". People are going to buy a TiVo for one and only one reason: Because it is better. For folks switching to HD right now, they may even be more inclined to pay a higher premium for TiVo after spending a couple of months strugglling with a cable DVR -- they'll come to truly appreciate the value of TiVo.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> As harsh as the TivoCommunity criticism has been of all the non-Tivo DVR's recently released maybe Tivo is just scared to release it. I mean what if they accidentally left out a single feature that someone here thinks is a "deal breaker " for them.


Heheh.... I do believe the hyperbole is running a bit thick. If TiVo actually had a serious competitor out there, there might be some validity to the concerns, but I think, as things are now, it's all just bravado, or frustration with the wait.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

bicker said:


> I think TiVo has more to worry about with the comparison between "free plus $10 per month" versus "$500 plus $16 per month". People are going to buy a TiVo for one and only one reason: Because it is better.


Even more intriguing for some... a rented Comcast Moto TiVo versus a S3 purchase. I wonder what features Comcast will leave out and how much they'll be charging. Hm, maybe I need one of each! (I hope they replace the current Comcast remote - yuck!)


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

davezatz said:


> Even more intriguing for some... a rented Comcast Moto TiVo versus a S3 purchase. I wonder what features Comcast will leave out and how much they'll be charging. Hm, maybe I need one of each! (I hope they replace the current Comcast remote - yuck!)


That will be the exact same boat I will be in once I sever ties with D*.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

> Originally Posted by ah30k
> What could possibly be holding up the S3?


Training Best Buy Drones taking months instead of weeks.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

ah30k said:


> What could possibly be holding up the S3?


Four little rubber legs?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

bicker said:


> It's actually a great stop-gap for me because there is no financial investment on my party; I just pay the monthly fee and I can cancel at any time. :up:
> 
> I think TiVo has more to worry about with the comparison between "free plus $10 per month" versus "$500 plus $16 per month". People are going to buy a TiVo for one and only one reason: Because it is better. For folks switching to HD right now, they may even be more inclined to pay a higher premium for TiVo after spending a couple of months strugglling with a cable DVR -- they'll come to truly appreciate the value of TiVo.


I just went the opposite route and sprung for Sony's *single tuner 500GB hi-def DVR* on eBay. For $600. and no monthly fee I'll find out how adequately CableCARD handles Comcast's scrambled digital line-up.

I'm also curious about how Sony's DVR handles OTA listings along with cable. Sony's DVR isn't as ambitious as TiVo's Series 3, but neither am I.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> I'm also curious about how Sony's DVR handles OTA listings along with cable. Sony's DVR isn't as ambitious as TiVo's Series 3, but neither am I.


What was that they used to say about mediocrity begetting mediocrity? Or did I just make that up? 

More power to you (or, in this case, less!)


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> I just went the opposite route and sprung for Sony's *single tuner 500GB hi-def DVR* on eBay. For $600. and no monthly fee I'll find out how adequately CableCARD handles Comcast's scrambled digital line-up.
> 
> I'm also curious about how Sony's DVR handles OTA listings along with cable. Sony's DVR isn't as ambitious as TiVo's Series 3, but neither am I.


Check the AVS forums - there is a known bug with the DHG series that causes problems when using some CableCards that requires a firmware update from Sony.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> I just went the opposite route and sprung for Sony's *single tuner 500GB hi-def DVR* on eBay. For $600. and no monthly fee I'll find out how adequately CableCARD handles Comcast's scrambled digital line-up. I'm also curious about how Sony's DVR handles OTA listings along with cable. Sony's DVR isn't as ambitious as TiVo's Series 3, but neither am I.


You're a brave soul to spend $600 on something for which you're "curious" about critical features. 

Please let us know -- some of us cannot spend that kind of money, just to "find out".


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

bicker said:


> I think TiVo has more to worry about with the comparison between "free plus $10 per month" versus "$500 plus $16 per month". People are going to buy a TiVo for one and only one reason: Because it is better. For folks switching to HD right now, they may even be more inclined to pay a higher premium for TiVo after spending a couple of months strugglling with a cable DVR -- they'll come to truly appreciate the value of TiVo.


Tivo's problem with relation to the price is only affected by a consumer's willingness to pay the premium.

For those switching to HD at the moment, as you point out, it is less a matter of Tivo vs. Cable Company, it's more Tivo vs. All Powerful Paycheck.

I speak from experience. I've had Tivo, and not just a standalone unit, but a DirecTivo. I've felt firsthand the joy of dual tuning, and revelled in the Tivo phenomenon. Then I switched to High Def and cable. I wanted digital cable, and didn't want to have to deal with using a Tivo in conjunction with a cable box. So I got the HD DVR from Cablevision (and now Comcast, as I have recently moved). While it is no Tivo, in my case it does what I ask of it.

I did love having a Tivo and I relish the thought of having a Tivo replace my cable box, but the fact of the matter is, if it's very expensive with no difference in the monthly price, I would be hard pressed to find a reason to pay such a premium.

And I HAD Tivo. Imagine what people coming to DVRs for the first time will think!

In order to appreciate, one must have first experienced. Convincing someone to appreciate something that they never had is... let's just say "difficult."


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## abdemaio (Oct 30, 2002)

My theory: TiVo is delaying release of the S3 because they want everyone who bought an HDTV to run out and get a cable company DVR. After a few months of experiencing the inferior interface, erratic behavior, no season passes, lousy search, etc., the home theater enthusiasts will be willing to buy the S3 regardless of the price. And, as was pointed out earlier, since there is no cancellation fee for dumping a cable company DVR, nothing will stop the surging masses from returning the DVRs in droves and snatching shiny new S3's.

I could, of course, be wrong ...


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

It's been mentioned before, but I think they are waiting for the New on the Series 2 DT to wear off and sales to level off. In fact it's very likely they had a schedule put together before the DT came out and they are lining up the distribution channels and preparing for a major push. I wouldn't be surprised to see quite a bit of marketing and advertising go into the Series 3 release. I predict late October.


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## slowmo (Aug 5, 2006)

classicX said:


> ...but the fact of the matter is, if it's very expensive with no difference in the monthly price, I would be hard pressed to find a reason to pay such a premium.
> 
> And I HAD Tivo. Imagine what people coming to DVRs for the first time will think!
> 
> In order to appreciate, one must have first experienced. Convincing someone to appreciate something that they never had is... let's just say "difficult."


Dead on.

This has been and continues to be TiVo's underlying issue with their business model. Great product; crappy strategy over the years.

Why is Tivo waiting to release the S3? Probably because the dang thing still has issues. They throw out the periodic press release as a weak attempt to stimulate interest and maintain some customer loyalty.

If the box was actually ready; they would distribute it. Each day of waiting allows more cable customers, who aren't included in the relatively small niche of TiVo lovers, to upgrade to a generic DVR. These converts are not likely to migrate to TiVo at a later date.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> Check the AVS forums - there is a known bug with the DHG series that causes problems when using some CableCards that requires a firmware update from Sony.


*Yeah*, like a box of chocolates; y' never know what y'll find!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

abdemaio said:


> My theory: TiVo is delaying release of the S3 because they want everyone who bought an HDTV to run out and get a cable company DVR. After a few months of experiencing the inferior interface, erratic behavior, no season passes, lousy search, etc., the home theater enthusiasts will be willing to buy the S3 regardless of the price. And, as was pointed out earlier, since there is no cancellation fee for dumping a cable company DVR, nothing will stop the surging masses from returning the DVRs in droves and snatching shiny new S3's.
> 
> I could, of course, be wrong ...


You say erratic behavior, no season passes, lousy search, I have been using the Moto 3412 HD DVR for some time now and the erratic behavior is much better then it use to be, there has always been season passes (new only or new and repeats). but the box still has a lousy program search, workable but lousy. I don't think the cable co. lack of any up front cost or cancellation fees and an unlimited warranty is a positive for TiVos Series 3. You also have to give up On Demand and PPV with the Series 3. So before I get a TiVo Series 3 I want to see how the home theater enthusiasts react to the unit.

Just my thoughts


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

bicker said:


> You're a brave soul to spend $600 on something for which you're "curious" about critical features.
> 
> Please let us know -- some of us cannot spend that kind of money, just to "find out".


When I get it set up I'll post.

I'm sure that Comcast will bill me for a "truck roll" for the CC installation and, as indicated on the AVS thread, there might actually be some fussing with it. But when the tech comes out I'll get him to install a 4th coax outlet so I can get rid of the wireless link into the breakfast area. For $20. that's a good deal even if the "truck roll" isn't.

If the Sony DVR ends up working OK, we'll see if it's a satisfactory replacement for Comcast's DCT 6412. But then Comcast will charge $5. monthly as an additional outlet fee; it probably makes more sense to replace the non-DVR STB included with digital service with the CC Sony, instead. Ack, everything's a tradeoff; no VOD on the second digital outlet, or spend $5 a month! 

As I mentioned in the earlier post, "Sony's DVR isn't as ambitious as TiVo's Series 3, but neither am I". That lack of ambition (and resulting mediocrity) has kept me from becoming a millionaire, but I ain't saying that I'm not a *half*-millionaire.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

slowmo said:


> Why is Tivo waiting to release the S3? Probably because the dang thing still has issues. They throw out the periodic press release as a weak attempt to stimulate interest and maintain some customer loyalty.
> 
> If the box was actually ready; they would distribute it. Each day of waiting allows more cable customers, who aren't included in the relatively small niche of TiVo lovers, to upgrade to a generic DVR. These converts are not likely to migrate to TiVo at a later date.


Gotta' check out that promised (on page 7) *Comcast TiVo STB*!


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> Gotta' check out that promised (on page 7) Comcast TiVo STB!


Time to comment.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4276107&&#post4276107


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

classicX said:


> Tivo's problem with relation to the price is only affected by a consumer's willingness to pay the premium.


That's pretty-much a tautology, isn't it? 



> In order to appreciate, one must have first experienced. Convincing someone to appreciate something that they never had is... let's just say "difficult."


Absolutely, and I also am a long-time TiVo user, with three TiVos. I wonder about whether any significant number of people, who don't already KNOW (like I do) that the TiVo is "so much better", will be willing to pay $XXX for the box, plus $17? a month for service.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Often things have to be experienced to sell, but not so much cell phones or the wheel.

TiVo was such an obvious winner that it is hard to understand how a company could fail to sell it in large numbers.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> Often things have to be experienced to sell, but not so much cell phones or the wheel.
> 
> TiVo was such an obvious winner that it is hard to understand how a company could fail to sell it in large numbers.


I think it was obvious to some, but not to many. I work in television and immediately saw that the Tivo was a digital disk recorder with a tuner. The concept of the digital disk recorder has been around for at leat 15 years in the video post production realm. I would even wonder if Tivo might have to watch out for eventual patent lawsuits from some dusty moribund video equipment company that might hold a claim to the very idea of recording digital video streams on a hard drive.

I still meet people who don't know what Tivo is and when I try to explain, they often give me what the late comedian George Gobel called "The Trout Look". You know, glazed eyes, mouth hanging open . . . duhhrrrr.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

You are kidding yourself, there might be some crazyness around the PS3 but its going to be so expensive that it wont be the big must have toy this year. My guess is the Wii at a much cheeper price will be the must have.



jfh3 said:


> Absolutely. Anything beyond early September is too late. (I really think anything beyond mid-August is too late, but doesn't look like that will happen).
> 
> The big tech gift for Christmas is going to be the PS3 - Tivo can't afford to compete with that.
> 
> Tivo has to get the S3 out in time for the fall TV season and get it out well ahead of the Comcast/Tivo option.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

my family is likely going the wii route, but if you are into HD then the PS3 might be the way to go even if it does cost 2 or 3 times as much.

(assuming the ps3 shows up with a working blue ray drive for HD movies...)


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> If the Sony DVR ends up working OK, we'll see if it's a satisfactory replacement for Comcast's DCT 6412.


If you can get the box working with TVGOS in your area, it's a very good box with terrific picture quality. I find the interface better than any cable DVR I've seen, though far more frustrating to use than Tivo, though MUCH better than the Comcast 6412 / iGuide software.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see quite a bit of marketing and advertising go into the Series 3 release.


Sadly, I would.

Tivo has shown that they are almost incapable of marketing and advertising.
Forget the Series 3 - that's going to be a low-volume market.

Where's the advertising and marketing for the DT? The push into the analog cable markets? Education on how a Tivo is better/different than generic DVRs?

The only mass marketing campaign I'm aware of for Tivo was a dismal failure - bizzare ads that essentially preached to the choir and confused the heck out of everyone else.

Tivo has limited funds to spend on marketing - I'd rather see the money go to raising awareness of what Tivo is and pushing the "mass market" DT.

For those that will be interested in the Series 3, it will sell itself.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

amjustice said:


> You are kidding yourself, there might be some crazyness around the PS3 but its going to be so expensive that it wont be the big must have toy this year. My guess is the Wii at a much cheeper price will be the must have.


They will both be in the same price range - if a family is going to choose between the two, which do you think will win? I'm guessing the PS3 will win the "either or" choice the vast majority of the time at least through the Christmas season.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

The fundamental problem Tivo has is they are trying to position themselves as the "high end" DVR maker in a commodity market. The only problem with this strategy is that people seldom buy the high end version of something for their first purchase. And most everyone today is still buying their first DVR, not their third. 

The other problem Tivo has is the majority of the public would not voluntarily pay extra for the features Tivo keeps adding. Most people just want a DVR to record their shows. How many people would pay extra for the ability to schedule a recording via their cellphone. That's an absurd feature that will not sell more Tivo's. Unfortunately many of the features Tivo is adding to separate itself from the generic DVR's fall into this same category. 

I'm not sure more marketing will help them at this point. They need a new strategy. Hopefully they will figure that out someday soon.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> I'm not sure more marketing will help them at this point. They need a new strategy. Hopefully they will figure that out someday soon.


hey maybe if they made a deal with a big cable company like say Comcast.


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## Niel (May 5, 2006)

I've been a long time (4 years) Tivo user, and love the thing. 95% of what we watch are recorded shows on Tivo. But we will be buying an HD TV in the next month, and then we will have a beautiful HD TV, but no way to watch a recorded show in HD. We would not be able to take advantage of what the new TV could do. 

And the picture quality of watching Tivo on the new TV might actually get worse. We auditioned a high end plasma set for a while and used it with Tivo, and the picture quality was far worse than we had on the 20 year old CRT. The Tivo samples the picture at some resolution, compresses it (using a lossy compression), and then when playing back it converts it back to analog, and the TV (which is all digital) has to re-sample this analog stream at some other resolution. With all the digitizing/undigitizing/redigitizing going on, it really looked like crap. With more modern DVRs, the digitizing is done only once if at all, and the signal stays digital, all the way to the screen.

My choice is either to build an HTPC and try to get it to record HD, (which I understand is possible now) but which would cost hundreds of dollars and probably be loaded with bugs, or get the cable company's DVR, which costs nothing, and has a monthly rent of $10--less than a standard def TIVO.

I'm tired of waiting for Tivo's HD offering. The cable company has been able to do HD for years now. I love my Tivo, but for HD, the cable company's box is the only game in town, and it would be very hard to fork out $600 and pay Tivo even more money than I do now.

We've been holding off on buying an HD TV for a while, waiting for Tivo to support it. Sorry Tivo, you had your chance.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

While I understand your situation completely - I might recommend that you not give Tivo the old heav ho quite yet.

Rent the Cable Companies DVR, hook it up, and also hook up your current Tivo as best as you can. 

Schedule your shows on both boxes. 

Watch shows on the CC's DVR where possible, watch them on the tivo when the CC box flakes out. (To me, reliability is #1) . Mentally compare the reliability and ease of use of the two. (*)

When the S3 comes out, if you are 100% happy with your current CC setup, then stick with it. If you yearn for something more TivoLike in you HD recording - consider buying the S3, and cancelling your rental of the CC's DVR.

(*) My CC DVR must be rebooted at least once a week, or it stops recording shows for no good reason. Support says it's because I don't reboot it often enough, or when I do reboot it, I don't leave it off for 10-30 minutes.

The S3 will be out, when it's out. I'm certainly hoping for sooner rather than later, for you, got myself, and for all of us that want to jump to full HD and are currently swimming in bad choices.

-Ken


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## Deacon West (Apr 16, 2006)

kdmorse said:


> (*) My CC DVR must be rebooted at least once a week, or it stops recording shows for no good reason. Support says it's because I don't reboot it often enough, or when I do reboot it, I don't leave it off for 10-30 minutes.
> -Ken


CC Support - Kind of an oxymoron at times. Notice that in their world it is your fault, no matter what. It couldn't possibly be there product has major flaws that they are unable or unwilling to correct. I'm hoping that if the S3 is too many $$$ that in addition to the Comcast/Tivo, there will be a TW/Tivo, a Charter/TiVo, etc. I think that is the only way a CC box _might _ be able to make most of us happy.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> I think Zeo is onto something. CableCARD is still relatively new technology and this is TiVo's first venture into that technology. So it's probably something they're going to really want to test to make sure they got it right before unleashing it onto the public.
> 
> Dan


*Unleashing . . .* Interesting word choice.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

SystemJinx said:


> I'm going to get an S3, but I don't want one until they are ready to ship. Let them work the bugs out of the system.


I think you are on the right track here . . . If the S3 ships in time for the Fall season, and there are bugs that lead to missed shows etc., there will be bad press and angry customers.

I'm not one of those people that believe _any_ press is _good_ press, so while I say *hurry up and give me my S3*, I also know it's best to *wait until it's ready*.

Hopefully, that will be soon


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

vman41 said:


> They had a unit suitable for Cablelabs certification months ago and showed the prototype at CES before that. 'hold up' is relative to product development time, not when they said they would release it.
> 
> The delay is probably a combination of things, it's still not a sure thing that they'll sell it at all (otherwise why would product announcement be event we are all waiting for?).


They could be doing the "announce and release on the same day" plan. This would be a good move in my opinion.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> For those that will be interested in the Series 3, it will sell itself.


ROFL. Someone hasn't been reading the thread ...

Of those interested, only about 22% would pay significantly more than $500 up front. And these are people that already know what the S3 will be capable of.

Assuming that the beta test is complete, the holdup is probably production / QA testing, although I'd prefer to hope that the holdup is due to fierce arguments over the initial price tag.

Good luck Tivo. I really mean that.


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

Niel said:


> I've been a long time (4 years) Tivo user, and love the thing. 95% of what we watch are recorded shows on Tivo. But we will be buying an HD TV in the next month, and then we will have a beautiful HD TV, but no way to watch a recorded show in HD. We would not be able to take advantage of what the new TV could do.


While my reply is a little off topic from the subject of this thread, I want to spare Neil from making a huge mistake. I'm not sure he realizes how bad the DVR from his cable company could be. (And OBVIOUSLY life w/o some form of a DVR is impossible once you've gotten used to life with one)
Regarding your post about leaving TiVo, kdmorse, who post immediately after you, gave you good advice and what he recommended is exactly what I do. 
Put in a splitter, send one line to the TiVo and send the other to the Cable Company's DVR which I rent. I love watching programs in HD BUT my Time Warner DVR flakes out/screws up regularly and misses shows (only the most important ones, wouldn't ya know it?). That way I have TiVo for two purposes: recording non-HD programming (because the HD shows quickly fill up the cable company's DVR) and watching stuff I COULD have watched in HD but my HD DVR screwed up. Because the DVR doesn't allow you to rank your shows, it has no method of conflict resolution and thus can't get your most important shows first and then pick up other shows when they repeat later that evening/week (in all fairness this happens less frequently than it could since their DVRs usually have dual tuners but it still happens); ALSO, because the DVR doesn't keep track of which episodes it has recorded, my HD-DVR quickly fills up with repeats of "first-run" episodes. For example, Showtime had the season 2 premiere of their show "Weeds" lastnight. I have my HD-DVR set to get all "first-run" episodes of this series. Last night, my HD-DVR recorded this single episode FOUR TIMES last night; Showtime didn't designate the second three airings of the episode as a rerun because that episode was a new episode (in the sense that it wasn't a rerun from months ago/a previous season) and my HD-DVR wasn't able to distinguish that had already recorded that episode hours earlier...you can see how this would quickly fill a DVR (particularly since HD programs take up LOTS of space).


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> If you can get the box working with TVGOS in your area, it's a very good box with terrific picture quality. I find the interface better than any cable DVR I've seen, though far more frustrating to use than Tivo, though MUCH better than the Comcast 6412 / iGuide software.


An interesting assessment. Both * TVGOS and iGuide* are Gemstar products.


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## slowmo (Aug 5, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> Time to comment.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4276107&&#post4276107


Basically, their investor relations packet simply says, "We kick ass in analog cable but, unfortunately, the long-term growth projections for that segment suck. Thus, we have been scrambling around trying to re-establish relationships with the cable providers that we historically had told to fu*$ off. We think we have one that will almost be ready in the near term. Furthermore, we are almost ready to announce that we will soon be able to predict an anticipated release date for a wonderful, expensive HD box that will be adored by the relatively few HD freaks who actually follow this crap on forums, blogs, etc. Meanwhile, we finally introducing a dual-tuner box to serve our loyal, core analog cable subscribers and hope that these morons will not buy an HD set, given that such a set would immediately evoke their complete dissatisfaction with their SD TiVo".

Don't you sometimes want to throw away the plasma / surround system and just buy a good old 27" tube that can be simply hooked up with a new DT S2 and one rf line of cable? I miss those simple TiVo days so badly...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

classicX said:


> Assuming that the beta test is complete...


That's a pretty big assumption. I have yet to see anything that suggets the beta is over and that the product is simply being held up for some unknown reason. For all we know the S3 is still in beta and that itself is the hold up.

Dan


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

classicX said:


> Of those interested, only about 22% would pay significantly more than $500 up front.


That's hardly a scientific survey...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

slowmo said:


> Don't you sometimes want to throw away the plasma / surround system and just buy a good old 27" tube that can be simply hooked up with a new DT S2 and one rf line of cable? I miss those simple TiVo days so badly...


With new technologies like HDMI and virtual surround sound systems we might eventually get back to that point. Until then we're stuck with lots and lots of wires as a trade off for quality.

Dan


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> If you can get the box working with TVGOS in your area, it's a very good box with terrific picture quality. I find the interface better than any cable DVR I've seen, though far more frustrating to use than Tivo, though MUCH better than the Comcast 6412 / iGuide software.


Opinions are just that -- opinions. And in mine (after four months of frustrating use) the Sony DVR was NOT a good box. It did have good (not terrific) picture quality. I can't compare the TVGOS to any cable DVR guide, but I do agree it's MUCH more frustrating to use than TiVO. And clearly MUCH less reliable. BTW, $600 was how much I paid for it retail (new unit) from Crutchfield back in November. So, IMHO, not a good deal especially on eBay.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> That's hardly a scientific survey...


Maybe not, but it is representative of those who visit this forum. A group that has mostly die hard TiVo fans as part of it's makeup. People who know the product better than anyone else and know what they are getting with the purchase.

This poll would only be off an amount equal to those people that would purchase out of ignorance, but for those ppl that are informed it's probably an accurate representation.


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## TBoyd (Apr 9, 2000)

other scenarios not mentioned yet, for instance that they are holding the S3 up pending merger/partnerships/buyout arrangements and the new organization may just kill the whole product line in anticipation of swallowing the Tivo rat just for it's patents.

Or, long simmering partnerships may have caught fire with all the various recent attention around DVRs, etc in the industry and a revised product will be needed to get these off the ground. result: S3 dead; S3 junior needed for various cable partners.

The thrust is, the S3 might not be the product now needed for whatever vision management has shifted to.

Just thought I'd throw a hand grenade over the fence.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

TBoyd said:


> Or, long simmering partnerships may have caught fire with all the various recent attention around DVRs, etc in the industry and a revised product will be needed to get these off the ground. result: S3 dead; S3 junior needed for various cable partners.
> 
> The thrust is, the S3 might not be the product now needed for whatever vision management has shifted to.
> 
> Just thought I'd throw a hand grenade over the fence.


S3 Jr. is right. Things are starting to get hot in the HD world. For example a few weeks ago Wal Mart announced to it's various ad agencies that from this point forward ALL TV ads will be shot and edited in HD 16:9 with an SD version downconverted from the HD version. This is HUGE news. Wal Mart, the largest company in the world, now wants it's ads to air in HD whenever possible. Southwest Airlines has made a similar decision. The floodgates are opening. The corporate world has now seen HD and they like it. You don't care about the ads, but if more time is being bought in HD shows to air HD ads then those shows will make more money. This will speed up the adoption of HD at all levels of the the television foodchain.

Eventually an S3 Jr. will be necessary for Tivo to be sucessful. That time could be now.


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## Deacon West (Apr 16, 2006)

Welshdog said:


> S3 Jr. is right.


Makes sense to me. Add S2DT and S3Jr. to your sig, just to make it official.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> Maybe not, but it is representative of those who visit this forum.


No again.

It would only be representative of TCF members if you knew that each and every member voted (and voted only once).

There is a self-selection bias---only those who chose to answer have done so. There is no way to know whether or not the subgroup of those voting is in any way representative of the larger group (TCF membership) as a whole.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Welshdog said:


> Eventually an S3 Jr. will be necessary for Tivo to be sucessful. That time could be now.


so with the S3 coming out this year - which barring some catostrophic cable card snafu is still very likely in my book - why is an S3 Jr needed ? the S3 will need to come down in price, but that has been the history of products from TiVo already.

nice to hear about Wal Mart jumping on the HD bandwagon - I may be going for HD next Christmas after all


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> No again.
> 
> It would only be representative of TCF members if you knew that each and every member voted (and voted only once).
> 
> There is a self-selection bias---only those who chose to answer have done so. There is no way to know whether or not the subgroup of those voting is in any way representative of the larger group (TCF membership) as a whole.


Of these people however its very likely that all of them want an S3 and that the selection they made is what they were willing to pay. Those that didn't respond are likely not interested enough at this time in the product. As for voting more than once, I find it very unlikely that someone would go to the trouble of creating a second account in violation of the forum rules to vote twice in a forum poll.

Ultimately this poll is more scientific and it's users more representative of those interested in DVR products than some random poll conducted among the masses. If it were a less frequented forum I'd agree with you, but since it isn't...


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

_Maybe not, but it is representative of those who visit this forum. _

Not really - it's representative of folks who visit the forum, read the thread, and found it worth voting in. Further, the thread itself will by and large attract folks with a predisposition to the idea of "I won't pay more than X". Folks who will pay more than X, people who don't care, or find poll itself silly - wouldn't have voted.

Or to spin it differently, if the poll were representative of the forum as a whole, Tivo will sell 28,000 S3's to forum members if priced between $500 and $800.

But it's not - it's representative of one thing only, the folks who chose to vote in that pole. Extrapolating to a wider, non-representative group, is just flawed statistics.

-Ken


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so with the S3 coming out this year - which barring some catostrophic cable card snafu is still very likely in my book - why is an S3 Jr needed ? the S3 will need to come down in price, but that has been the history of products from TiVo already.
> 
> nice to hear about Wal Mart jumping on the HD bandwagon - I may be going for HD next Christmas after all


To me, S3 Jr implies a cheaper less full featured unit that would cost less to produce and thus would help keep Tivos cost of acquiring new subscribers down. If more and more people are going to want an HD Tivo there will need to be a mainstream product that can fill that need as opposed to the high end niche product like the promised S3.

The S3 hardware spec has probably been fixed for some time now. It would not surprise me to find that less expensive chipsets for handling HD video streams are already available. Enter S3 Jr.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Welshdog said:


> hings are starting to get hot in the HD world. For example a few weeks ago Wal Mart announced to it's various ad agencies that from this point forward ALL TV ads will be shot and edited in HD 16:9 with an SD version downconverted from the HD version. This is HUGE news.


Boo. I like seeing the SD ads during HD programs, because when I fast forward I only have to look for the pillar bars to disappear to tell me when to come out of the commercial breaks.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

slowmo said:


> Basically, their investor relations packet simply says, "We kick ass in analog cable but, unfortunately, the long-term growth projections for that segment suck. Thus, we have been scrambling around trying to re-establish relationships with the cable providers that we historically had told to fu*$ off. We think we have one that will almost be ready in the near term. Furthermore, we are almost ready to announce that we will soon be able to predict an anticipated release date for a wonderful, expensive HD box that will be adored by the relatively few HD freaks who actually follow this crap on forums, blogs, etc. Meanwhile, we finally introducing a dual-tuner box to serve our loyal, core analog cable subscribers and hope that these morons will not buy an HD set, given that such a set would immediately evoke their complete dissatisfaction with their SD TiVo".
> 
> Don't you sometimes want to throw away the plasma / surround system and just buy a good old 27" tube that can be simply hooked up with a new DT S2 and one rf line of cable? I miss those simple TiVo days so badly...


Last things first!

The DT S2 was outdated before it was released. Right now it's fine but not for long! More and more programming will be digital and the "dual" S2 can't handle that.

The truth is that the S2 needs a second independent coax input as well as the ability to control OTA STB tuners. Let the S2 control two digital sources from any mix of OTA, cable, and satellite, and record all digital sources in relatively cheap but quite decent standard-def, and it would be a DVR worth getting!

The S3 has the potential to be the DVR product that integrates digital cable and hi-def OTA. To fulfil that objective TiVo must insure that the S3 works better than any cable box that it potentially competes with. If not it's curtains!

I've been fussing with LG's LST-3410A, manually channel mapping Comcast's unscrambled digital ine up into TVGOS. After accomplishing that I'm of the opinion that the now discontinued 3410A, clever and interesting as it is, wasn't quite ready for primetime as a non cable company hi-def DVR. Everything technically works, but there are so many gaps and incongruities in the digital line-up, and channel changing between formats takes so long, that nobody who isn't basically a hobbiest would put up with it.

(As a hobbiest though its fun to check out what's available "outside of the box"! There are a few channels that can only received with a non cable box QAM tuner plus there's the opportunity to eavesdrop on VOD. Although the 3410A tunes ATSC/NTSC OTA as well as QAM/NTSC cable, only ATSC OTA can be selected at the same time as a cable line-up.)

I'm surprised that there is so much negativity regarding the S3 here at the TiVo Community. The market won't forgive mistakes and the S3's not late. Why such impatience?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> Maybe not, but it is representative of those who visit this forum. A group that has mostly die hard TiVo fans as part of it's makeup. People who know the product better than anyone else and know what they are getting with the purchase.


People who are notorious tightwads. When TiVo stopped offering lifetime service this forum suffered weeks of whining and screaming and foot-stamping and breath-holding. And over what? $155 a year, that's what. At most. For most people here it was more likely $83 a year. That's not even a restaurant and a movie. I spend more than that each month for cable so I can watch some guy whisper to dogs and see Tanya Memme sell people's houses. But, oh God, they cried like daddy took away their allowance. And the discussions about whether it is better to get lifetime service on a second box or pay the $6.95. WTF?

The Series 3 box is aimed at the high-end market. People who have spent $20K or $30K or more on HT gear are not going to blink at $800 for a state of the art HD DVR (in fact, if it is too cheap, they won't buy it). People here will be having seizures and declaring it the end of TiVo. (Meanwhile, I'll be tossing four boxes out of my stereo cabinet and replacing them with one sleek new TiVo Series 3, whatever the cost.)

That is, assuming the fat cats at TiVo... oh, never mind.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Welshdog said:


> To me, S3 Jr implies a cheaper less full featured unit that would cost less to produce and thus would help keep Tivos cost of acquiring new subscribers down. If more and more people are going to want an HD Tivo there will need to be a mainstream product that can fill that need as opposed to the high end niche product like the promised S3.
> 
> The S3 hardware spec has probably been fixed for some time now. It would not surprise me to find that less expensive chipsets for handling HD video streams are already available. Enter S3 Jr.


TiVo is going to be severely disadvantaged if they don't adopt some form of thin client strategy for additional units.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> (Meanwhile, I'll be tossing four boxes out of my stereo cabinet and replacing them with one sleek new TiVo Series 3, whatever the cost.)


Which 4?

Notice I ignored the rant.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> People who are notorious tightwads. When TiVo stopped offering lifetime service this forum suffered weeks of whining and screaming and foot-stamping and breath-holding. And over what? $155 a year, that's what. At most. For most people here it was more likely $83 a year. That's not even a restaurant and a movie. I spend more than that each month for cable so I can watch some guy whisper to dogs and see Tanya Memme sell people's houses. But, oh God, they cried like daddy took away their allowance. And the discussions about whether it is better to get lifetime service on a second box or pay the $6.95. WTF?
> 
> The Series 3 box is aimed at the high-end market. People who have spent $20K or $30K or more on HT gear are not going to blink at $800 for a state of the art HD DVR (in fact, if it is too cheap, they won't buy it). People here will be having seizures and declaring it the end of TiVo. (Meanwhile, I'll be tossing four boxes out of my stereo cabinet and replacing them with one sleek new TiVo Series 3, whatever the cost.)
> 
> That is, assuming the fat cats at TiVo... oh, never mind.


"Different strokes for different folks."

I have no problem with spending $600+ for an interesting discontinued DVR just to try it out, and another $??? for one (only) brand new Series 3, (plus another $600+ for TiVo's "Lifetime" service), but won't spend a nickle for "renting" TiVo!

Hi-def is fine, but I only need one such TV to check it out; otherwise standard-def 20" to 27" CRT TV's are just as much fun to watch!

Regarding megabux "Home Theatre":

A few thousand dollars can buy a sound system which can fool me into thinking that (certain types of) music are coming from a "live" source, but the most expensive TV (or movie) equipment ever made can't fool me into thinking that what I'm seeing is "live"! It's just the nature of the beasts.

Many people buy stuff that's currently popular. Some don't.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

I was wondering about the S3 and the new HDMI 1.3 spec. It appears that the S3 model shown uses the current 1.2 spec since 1.3 has a new type of connector. The new spec offers some major improvements in bandwidth and speed.

I sure would like to see that on the new unit. Probably not until S3 Rev B.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HDMI 1.3 was just finished up last month. I doubt we'll see 1.3 capable displays for at least a year, and it probably wont go main stream for 2-3 years. By then TiVo will probably be working on the CableCARD 2.0 capable Series 4 TiVo. 

Dan


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> The Series 3 box is aimed at the high-end market. People who have spent $20K or $30K or more on HT gear are not going to blink at $800 for a state of the art HD DVR (in fact, if it is too cheap, they won't buy it). People here will be having seizures and declaring it the end of TiVo. (Meanwhile, I'll be tossing four boxes out of my stereo cabinet and replacing them with one sleek new TiVo Series 3, whatever the cost.)


 I hope you remember your blogging buddy when you go on that shopping spree.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> Which 4?


TiVo #1, TiVo #2, Cable box, HD OTA tuner.



> Notice I ignored the rant.


Did you? I hadn't noticed.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

davezatz said:


> I hope you remember your blogging buddy when you go on that shopping spree.


I'd be more inclined to if I had won those headphones you gave away.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVo Troll said:


> "Different strokes for different folks."


I prefer to crush people's souls and make them submit to my will, thank you very much.



> A few thousand dollars can buy a sound system which can fool me into thinking that (certain types of) music are coming from a "live" source, but the most expensive TV (or movie) equipment ever made can't fool me into thinking that what I'm seeing is "live"! It's just the nature of the beasts.


Is this an argument that picture quality isn't important? That's what it sounds like. I don't agree. Picture quality is an important part of the experience, regardless of its ability to seem "live."



> Many people buy stuff that's currently popular. Some don't.


You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> The DT S2 was outdated before it was released.


Miss Teen USA is not in HD tonight. 



ChuckyBox said:


> I'd be more inclined to if I had won those headphones you gave away.


I was surprised at how many people were/are interested in them. Several folks on- and off-line let me know (after the fact) that they wanted them. For what it's worth, I don't think you can use that model for extended periods of time - my ears got hot. If Altec Lansing sends a third pair, they're yours. However If Bose ever responds and offers me the QuietComfort 3, I'm keeping them - sorry!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> ...the now discontinued 3410A, clever and interesting as it is, wasn't quite ready for primetime as a non cable company hi-def DVR. Everything technically works, but there are so many gaps and incongruities in the digital line-up, and channel changing between formats takes so long, that nobody who isn't basically a hobbiest would put up with it..


That was EXACTLY my opinion of the Sony DHG-HDD500/250 after four months of agony and ectasy (but mostly agony).


ChuckyBox said:


> ...The Series 3 box is aimed at the high-end market. People who have spent $20K or $30K or more on HT gear are not going to blink at $800 for a state of the art HD DVR (in fact, if it is too cheap, they won't buy it). People here will be having seizures and declaring it the end of TiVo. (Meanwhile, I'll be tossing four boxes out of my stereo cabinet and replacing them with one sleek new TiVo Series 3, whatever the cost.)...


Right on (as usual) Chucky. (and I LOVE your rants)


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> Opinions are just that -- opinions. And in mine (after four months of frustrating use) the Sony DVR was NOT a good box. It did have good (not terrific) picture quality. I can't compare the TVGOS to any cable DVR guide, but I do agree it's MUCH more frustrating to use than TiVO. And clearly MUCH less reliable. BTW, $600 was how much I paid for it retail (new unit) from Crutchfield back in November. So, IMHO, not a good deal especially on eBay.


Well, I don't rely on my Sony any more than I rely on the cable DVR, but I appear to be one of the lucky users that don't have guide data problems with the Sony or hardware hang ups (though I don't use a CableCard with it). But I've never had the Sony lock up, where the cable DVR either loses guide data or has to be rebooted at least once a week.

I would probably go insane if it was my primary DVR (and it does seem to have problems remembering regular or weekly recordings), but to primarily capture network HD programming, it does the job.

However, given the scope of problems and various inconsistancies, it's not too hard to see why Sony discontinued the box early. Too bad that Sony, an early Tivo licensee, just didn't license the Tivo software outright - we would've had a Series 3- about a year early, instead of being teased with the DHG series with some licensed Tivo features.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> Maybe not, but it is representative of those who visit this forum. A group that has mostly die hard TiVo fans as part of it's makeup. People who know the product better than anyone else and know what they are getting with the purchase.
> 
> This poll would only be off an amount equal to those people that would purchase out of ignorance, but for those ppl that are informed it's probably an accurate representation.


I'd like to see another poll after the Series 3 is released ... assuming the box is > $500 - how many of those that said they wouldn't spend more than $500 get a box anyway ...


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> the S3's not late. Why such impatience?


Both the Series 2 DT and Series 3 should've been out at least a year before their respective release dates.

The Series 3 may not technically be "late" according to Tivo's release schedule, but it's very late to the HD DVR party.

Sony had an CableCard HD DVR (albeit single tuner) out 18 months ago - no reason Tivo couldn't have had one around the same time.

I'm willing to wait for a Series 3, but many aren't and many have simply gone with the cableco DVRs as the path of least resistance. I suspect Tivo has already lost much of the high-end market they were counting on by being so "late".


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> Is (your) argument that picture quality isn't important? That's what it sounds like. I don't agree. Picture quality is an important part of the experience, regardless of its ability to seem "live."


My argument is that an image's balance creates a more fulfilling visual experience than its technical perfection. I'm pretty sure that we do indeed disagree on this crushing point.

Some of the most memorable television I've ever seen was on a 17" B&W set. More recently I've been just as emotionally satisfied when watching a 27" 4 x 3 480i (nothing special) CRT set as when looking at the virtual perfection of a 42" 16 x 9 hi-def 1080i display.

I'd rather have a TiVo which can record two programs at the same time in standard-def from any two cable, satellite, and/or OTA sources for $150., than a $500. TiVo which can record hi-def from cable and OTA only.


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## Deacon West (Apr 16, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> That is, assuming the fat cats at TiVo... oh, never mind.


With apologies to Chucky.... assuming the fat cats at TiVo can still fit into their Kiton suits and Tag gold and diamond bezeled watches and get back on the corporate Boing 777 jet (TiVo One) where they will sip Cristal served by the top ten Miss America finalists after their three month long vacation being the beta testers for a new Caribbean Hedonism resort.

I know it's like me trying to tell a joke like Jerry Seinfeld, but I just had to try.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> That was EXACTLY my opinion of the Sony DHG-HDD500/250 after four months of agony and ectasy (but mostly agony).


I'm getting the Sony as much to compare it with LG's offering as to find the limitations of CableCARD.

I'm using the LG in conjunction with an OTA ATSC/NTSC STB tuner. I'd wanted to use LG's LST-4200A for this, but had to settle for Sylvania's much less ambitious SRZ3000 because the 3410A shares the same remote codes as the 4200A.

Will the capabilities of a CableCard tuner make up for the flexibility of line inputs? How does Sony's offering compare with LG in its capabilities when dealing with cable and OTA at the same time? Stay tuned.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Now that we know Chucky plans to keep TiVo in business all by himself, all I have to worry about is that TiVo has no incentive to get its butt in gear and produce some neat products.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

S3 _MUST _ be coming out in early Sept. because the first TiVo house party will be in Sept. and how could it be a party without S3????


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> Well, I don't rely on my Sony any more than I rely on the cable DVR, but I appear to be one of the lucky users that don't have guide data problems with the Sony or hardware hang ups (though I don't use a CableCard with it). But I've never had the Sony lock up, where the cable DVR either loses guide data or has to be rebooted at least once a week.


Our Comcast dual tuner hi-def DCT6412 w/MS Foundation Edition occasionally changes channels unexpectedly, usually after an *EAS alert*, but hasn't missed a scheduled recording. It's easy and fun to use, and I like its GUI better than TiVo's.

Series 3 will have TiVo's specialized features, but will lose access to VOD and PPV. TiVo has its work cut out to sell Series 3 for $??? + 12.95 monthly service fee with a 1 year minimum contract, as against Comcast's $10. monthly rental w/ no contract obligation for its STB, with no maintenance to deal with.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

One thing I have to comment on re: S3 is that to me, even though I have a 1080p display, SD still looks fine. I don't have much interest in upgrading to HD, but will use the S3 to receive terrestrial HD broadcasts.

My point is that I think there are still some like me with HD displays that really only want them to be able to view DVDs (and HD discs) on, and don't really care too much about the PQ on regular TV. Which is why I think that the S2DT still has a market for quite a while, at least if they price it competitively.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Niel said:


> We auditioned a high end plasma set for a while and used it with Tivo, and the picture quality was far worse than we had on the 20 year old CRT.


I have to ask, did you calibrate the TV using any of the calibration discs out there? It makes a HUGE difference for the perceived quality of the picture.

I watch stuff recorded in medium quality on my hi-def set, and find that the picture is about the same as it was on my 32" crt.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> Tivo has shown that they are almost incapable of marketing and advertising.
> Forget the Series 3 - that's going to be a low-volume market.
> 
> Where's the advertising and marketing for the DT? The push into the analog cable markets? Education on how a Tivo is better/different than generic DVRs?


Yup, I've said it before, but I really think that TiVo (and ReplayTV!) will end up as a textbook example of how a great, pioneering product manages to completely escape the mass market.

TiVo hardly has any TV advertising. How weird is that?


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## Niel (May 5, 2006)

MickeS said:


> I have to ask, did you calibrate the TV using any of the calibration discs out there? It makes a HUGE difference for the perceived quality of the picture.
> 
> I watch stuff recorded in medium quality on my hi-def set, and find that the picture is about the same as it was on my 32" crt.


Thanks for the reply and question.

No, I didn't do any official calibrations on the HD set. Never did any on the 15 year old CRT either, and I've been very happy with that set since I got it. I only had the HD set for 3 weeks, and then sent it back and got a refund (I felt bad to do that to the retailer), because it wasn't worth $3000 for what I was seeing. I had the set set to "standard" mode (not vivid), and tried every menu adjustment that it had, and wasn't able to improve things.

The HD set was the top of the line Panasonic 42" plasma (768x1024), the one Consumers listed as one of the best pictures available, and I was disappointed with the picture quality. The HD pictures (which came from OTA HD) were good, but not as stunning as I expected. The picture got razor sharp when the action on the screen stopped, but when there was camera movement or any normal amount of movement, like, the person's head moving as they talked, the detail in the face would disappear. When feeding the Tivo in through the S input, pretty much all the detail from faces would disappear, often giving faces no color variations or shadows from nose to ear. I tried watching the NTSC cable directly on the HD set, and it was acceptable (but not that great), but when it went through the Tivo, it was back to the detail-less faces.

I was so happy to get my 15 year old CRT back in use so I could see details in faces again.

Tivo is sampling at certain resolution (not capturing quite all of the detail of NTSC and compressing the detail and color depth to save disk space (I always run the Tivo on highest quality), and then the 768 x 1024 HD set, which doesn't match well to NTSC 480 x 640 (approximate) in the first place, is having to re-digitize and interpolate this already sampled signal. I attributed the bad picture to sampling and resampling the sampled signals. But if every one else isn't seeing this, maybe I just had a bad set. I never thought that calibration would solve the issues that I was seeing.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> People who have spent $20K or $30K or more on HT gear are not going to blink at $800 for a state of the art HD DVR


Some might. *ahem*ME*ahem*


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

classicX said:


> Some might. *ahem*ME*ahem*


Then you are one of those cheap bastards who are to blame for all of TiVo's troubles.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Then you are one of those cheap bastards who are to blame for all of TiVo's troubles.


ahem. ... I'm cheap too.


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## slowmo (Aug 5, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> Last things first!
> 
> The DT S2 was outdated before it was released. Right now it's fine but not for long! More and more programming will be digital and the "dual" S2 can't handle that.
> 
> ...


I never said the DT S2 was state of the art; in fact, I note that it satisfies only the few analog subscribers, who represent a shrinking segment.

I agree, the S2 would be more useful with separate OTA input and ability to setup as cable / OTA. As have many others, I've jig-rigged my S2 to record S-Video-routed OTA HD content that at least maintained the 16:9 aspect of the source material from an ATSC tuner. Better than analog, but far from HD.

The S3's not late? With respect to what - their press release? Perhaps not, but I'm a little skeptical given TiVo's past ability to launch timely. Remember, these guys had to re-press release the D* HD box launch at the subsequent year's CES show.

More importantly, TiVo has yet to introduce a stand-alone HD box in mid-2006, at a time when HD sets have been mass-marketed by retailers such as Wal-Mart. For a company that has successfully broadened its corporate name into a generic verb, that is LATE!

I love TiVo but I'm now entering my fourth year as the owner of an HD system who has employed several band-aid solutions while patiently waiting for TiVo to catch up.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> ahem. ... I'm cheap too.


One more confessor and its officially a conspiracy against TiVo.


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## slowmo (Aug 5, 2006)

MickeS said:


> I have to ask, did you calibrate the TV using any of the calibration discs out there? It makes a HUGE difference for the perceived quality of the picture.
> 
> I watch stuff recorded in medium quality on my hi-def set, and find that the picture is about the same as it was on my 32" crt.


Crap in, crap out.

While some stuff is passable from an analog-cable-sourced S2 (you ever notice that the little TiVo start-up cartoon has the best dang PQ of anything coming out of that box), the majority is very poor when viewed on a plasma, etc. Calibration won't polish that little turd enough.

In fact, I notice that my 8300HD provides much better PQ (not to mention audio) on the analog cable channels given the component connections (and optical audio).


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Lately I've contemplated that the lateness might relate to some belated effort to translate the latest speculating into some gossip about the meaning of late.

Later, dudes.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> They will both be in the same price range - if a family is going to choose between the two, which do you think will win? I'm guessing the PS3 will win the "either or" choice the vast majority of the time at least through the Christmas season.


since we're wandering off track- if you are talkign about Wii vs PS3, the wii will like a half or even a third of the price of the PS3. They will not be in the same price range by any stretch.

I think the PS3 is looking to be 599 or maybe even 699

Wii's high end is 299 with some analysts thinking 249 or even 200.

totally differnt animals.

Wii is a new SD game machine that plays DVD's. PS3 is a new HD game machine that plays blue-ray disks.

(OK maybe it's just me wandering off track...)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Welshdog said:


> To me, S3 Jr implies a cheaper less full featured unit that would cost less to produce and thus would help keep Tivos cost of acquiring new subscribers down. If more and more people are going to want an HD Tivo there will need to be a mainstream product that can fill that need as opposed to the high end niche product like the promised S3.
> 
> The S3 hardware spec has probably been fixed for some time now. It would not surprise me to find that less expensive chipsets for handling HD video streams are already available. Enter S3 Jr.


i think that's always thier plan.

hence the series 2.5 hardware on the stand alone and directivo boxes.

they are always looking to make cheaper hardware revisions.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> HDMI 1.3 was just finished up last month. I doubt we'll see 1.3 capable displays for at least a year, and it probably wont go main stream for 2-3 years. By then TiVo will probably be working on the CableCARD 2.0 capable Series 4 TiVo.
> 
> Dan


even then I'm wondering if the new capabilites of hdmi1.3 are even achivable for cable or OTA.

The current standard can handle up to 1080p with 24 bit color. Can ATSC or any of the cable broadcast standards send more then that? Would cable bother?

I doubt we'll see 1080p anytime soon nevermind anything more. And for all we know they already scrimp down to 16bit color to help with the compression to squeeze....


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> I'd like to see another poll after the Series 3 is released ... assuming the box is > $500 - how many of those that said they wouldn't spend more than $500 get a box anyway ...


I also wonder how many people who would spend a grand for the thing didn't bother to vote for fear of making TiVo that they would spend anything.

I mean if I was going to spend a grand would I say so when 500 other people are telling Tivo they wont spend over 500? Maybe I'll keep my mouth shut and hope Tivo gets scard off and charges only 500...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> Our Comcast dual tuner hi-def DCT6412 w/MS Foundation Edition occasionally changes channels unexpectedly, usually after an *EAS alert*, but hasn't missed a scheduled recording. It's easy and fun to use, and I like its GUI better than TiVo's.
> 
> Series 3 will have TiVo's specialized features, but will lose access to VOD and PPV. TiVo has its work cut out to sell Series 3 for $??? + 12.95 monthly service fee with a 1 year minimum contract, as against Comcast's $10. monthly rental w/ no contract obligation for its STB, with no maintenance to deal with.


well, in the case of comcast many people will just get the comcast tivo.

I checked into my local cable company's pricing in anticipation of leaving Directv for the series3 and I was surprised that they charge 6.95 for an HD STB and then another 6.95 for A DVR. So DVR rental is $13.90. So the DVR fee is actually cheaper with Tivo. You still need cablecard rentals but with the multibox discount it's going to be cheaper on a monthly basis for a series 3 with 2 cablecasrds on multiservice then for the cable company's box.

So it's only the inital out of pocket that is painfull. Not sure how to overcome that for John Q public...

In my case I figured it out and cable's triple play will be $8 less a month then what I pay to directv and the phone company. I'll get about 8 times the broadband speed, about 8 more HD national channels, 3 more local HD channels, and one more TV serviced for that $8 less.

The first year is $50 off a month so I plan to "invest" that $600 first year savings in some fresh tivo's. If my dream is true, the series 3 will be 300-400 and I'll get two. Otherwise probably just one and an S2DT to go along with my current DVD Tivo.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Niel said:


> Tivo is sampling at certain resolution (not capturing quite all of the detail of NTSC and compressing the detail and color depth to save disk space (I always run the Tivo on highest quality), and then the 768 x 1024 HD set, which doesn't match well to NTSC 480 x 640 (approximate) in the first place, is having to re-digitize and interpolate this already sampled signal. I attributed the bad picture to sampling and resampling the sampled signals. But if every one else isn't seeing this, maybe I just had a bad set. I never thought that calibration would solve the issues that I was seeing.


The key to bad HD is the upscaling. That is where the 480 picture falls apart and as you said it wasn't helped by being compressed by Tivo. And you were only viewing 768 x 1024, imagine how bad it would look at native 1080! This is why it is important for Tivo and others to get affordable HD hardware out in the market soon. As more and more HD sets are sold, we are going to have lots of disappointed customers who literally can't SEE the advantage of HD because they are trying to view SD upscaled. Even with a great scaler it still looks bad even when compared to an SD crt. People will start dumping their Tivos in favor of the cable co DVR because it will look better - some of the time anyway.

This is one reason I still have not purchased an HD tv. I 'm waiting for the S3 so I can feed it as much HD as I can. SD on an HD tv offends my senses.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Welshdog said:


> The key to bad HD is the upscaling. Even with a great scaler it still looks bad even when compared to an SD crt.


I disagree. I think it varies set to set, brand to brand, and screen size must be factored in. I've seen SD look very good on HD sets.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

davezatz said:


> I disagree. I think it varies set to set, brand to brand, and screen size must be factored in. I've seen SD look very good on HD sets.


I suppose my eye is overly critical. I am a video editor and our goal is always to maintain image quality at as high a level as possible. I do see my own work on TV and it is amazing how much it changes sometimes from where we finished it.

Nonetheless, I still maintain that upscaling, while sometimes acceptable, should always be avoided when possible. Shoot me I'm a purist.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> ahem. ... I'm cheap too.


That was, after all, the point I was making, wasn't it?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Deacon West said:


> With apologies to Chucky.... assuming the fat cats at TiVo can still fit into their Kiton suits and Tag gold and diamond bezeled watches and get back on the corporate Boing 777 jet (TiVo One) where they will sip Cristal served by the top ten Miss America finalists after their three month long vacation being the beta testers for a new Caribbean Hedonism resort.


No apology necessary. That was basically where I was going, though I might have substituted Thai slave-girls for the Miss America finalists.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I checked into my local cable company's pricing in anticipation of leaving Directv for the series3 and I was surprised that they charge 6.95 for an HD STB and then another 6.95 for A DVR. So DVR rental is $13.90. So the DVR fee is actually cheaper with Tivo.


Now figure in the charge for digital cable since it's required for the box and add another 8.00, then add 8.00 for HD channels. Series 3 is looking better all the time.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

davezatz said:


> I disagree. I think it varies set to set, brand to brand, and screen size must be factored in. I've seen SD look very good on HD sets.


SD looks very good on my HD plasma. I stretch out SD channel to fill the screen and everyone comments on how good the TV looks. Then I show them actual HD stuff and they are floored.

As far as Tivo being "late" with the S3...

In the beginning HD was very expensive and there weren't many channels or subscribers. It looked great in the store, but how much DiscoveryHD can a person take? Now with the relatively cheap "entry fee" into HD (save for the actual HD TV, which is getting cheaper every month), HD sells itself. Tivo is so late to the game it's hard to see how they can redeem themselves with an $800 HD box.

It's the same point everyone keeps making in this and several other threads.



MichaelK said:


> I also wonder how many people who would spend a grand for the thing didn't bother to vote for fear of making TiVo that they would spend anything.
> 
> I mean if I was going to spend a grand would I say so when 500 other people are telling Tivo they wont spend over 500? Maybe I'll keep my mouth shut and hope Tivo gets scard off and charges only 500...


An interesting thought, though I don't think Tivo's pricing decision would come from a poll of >500 people, whom ChuckyBox posits are all "tightwads." Perhaps if someone from Tivo actually posted the poll...


----------



## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> Now figure in the charge for digital cable since it's required for the box and add another 8.00, then add 8.00 for HD channels. Series 3 is looking better all the time.


I don't know about you, but I'm not charged anything extra for HD channels over the most basic digital cable package. If I do end up getting one or more series3 units, I will be paying for the most basic digital package that Comcast offers, which is less than $10 / month. I pay $19.90 / month for two HD DVRs ($9.95 each). This charge will probably be almost exactly the same for two Tivos.

That said, two Series3's won't save me any money monthly, but will cost up front. The question is, when the price is introduced, am I willing to pay that premium for Tivo service? $800? No. $400? Yes.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> ...I checked into my local cable company's pricing...and I was surprised that they charge 6.95 for an HD STB and then another 6.95 for A DVR. So DVR rental is $13.90. So the DVR fee is actually cheaper with Tivo....





Stormspace said:


> Now figure in the charge for digital cable since it's required for the box and add another 8.00, then add 8.00 for HD channels. Series 3 is looking better all the time.


EXACTLY! Currently I'm paying for expanded basic with Mediacom, and that's their pricing structure also (within a few dollars) if I wanted HD. Ain't gonna happen....I'll be using the S3 for OTA HD and analog cable recording.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

On FiOS, the HD DVR w/ Microsoft software is $12.99/mo, or $19.99/mo with home media features that are standard on every Tivo. Of course, you rent the box, so there is no cash outlay.


----------



## bltkmt (Apr 28, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> Lately I've contemplated that the lateness might relate to some belated effort to translate the latest speculating into some gossip about the meaning of late.
> 
> Later, dudes.


Belated appreciation!


----------



## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

*I know what's been holding up the S3!*

...

...

...

It's a contract dispute with the TiVo Guy! He refuses to do the HD re-shoot of the marble-slide thingy until his medical deductible is reduced!


----------



## msu2k (Jan 4, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> EXACTLY! Currently I'm paying for expanded basic with Mediacom, and that's their pricing structure also (within a few dollars) if I wanted HD. Ain't gonna happen....I'll be using the S3 for OTA HD and analog cable recording.


I wish I could get by with just OTA HD and analog cable but football on ESPN in HD is just too darn pretty.  The wait for the S3 is killing me.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

msu2k said:


> I wish I could get by with just OTA HD and analog cable but football on ESPN in HD is just too darn pretty.  The wait for the S3 is killing me.


Thanks for reminding me....


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> On FiOS, the HD DVR w/ Microsoft software is $12.99/mo, or $19.99/mo with home media features that are standard on every Tivo. Of course, you rent the box, so there is no cash outlay.


It does frankly appear that FiOS Media Center will cost more _per month _ than S3(s), cable cards included.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

msu2k said:


> I wish I could get by with just OTA HD and analog cable but football on ESPN in HD is just too darn pretty.  The wait for the S3 is killing me.


You can always get the NFL on Sunday night games in HD since they are on NBC this year


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> Now figure in the charge for digital cable since it's required for the box and add another 8.00, then add 8.00 for HD channels. Series 3 is looking better all the time.


actually I sat down with a spreadsheet (since there are so many stinking fees involved) and with all the fees accounted for cable triple play FOR ME will be about $8 less then Directv plus my phone/dsl bill. So I'll save $8 a month with cable, then I can save another 14 a month by getting 2 series 3's instead of renting cable company DVR's. Add in the $50/month first year discount and I have some series 3 money. Bring 'em on!

Now if Tivo can keep them to $382 or less I'll break even for the year and own a pair of series 3's-LOL!


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Maybe the holdup is they were waiting for the echostar injunction so they can sent a mass mailer to all the echostar DVR subs...

"See what the stolen technology can do in the right hands..."

LOL


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> actually I sat down with a spreadsheet (since there are so many stinking fees involved) and with all the fees accounted for cable triple play FOR ME will be about $8 less then Directv plus my phone/dsl bill. So I'll save $8 a month with cable, then I can save another 14 a month by getting 2 series 3's instead of renting cable company DVR's. Add in the $50/month first year discount and I have some series 3 money. Bring 'em on!
> 
> Now if Tivo can keep them to $382 or less I'll break even for the year and own a pair of series 3's-LOL!


Looks like we found a tight wad [email protected]@rd that will buy S3s. The conspiracy is falling apart.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Top Reasons Why S3 is 'Late'

1. Secret warehouse of S3s in Haifa destroyed by Hezbolleze rocket.

2. Truckload of S3s on run from Syria to Beirut destroyed by Isreali air strike.

3. Sunni and Shiite factions in Iraq can't agree on formula for distributing limited initial supplies; meanwhile Kurds demanding supplies of DTs for all analog KurdVision cable system.

4. Trainload of S3s destroyed in "accident" near North Korean border with China.

5. French pushing EU to fine TiVo for making it hard to play TiVo recorded/downloaded content on non-TiVo devices.

6. S3s produced in liquid form for easy shipping have to go by steamship instead of airplane.

7. HumVee loaded with S3s ran over Afgan person.

8. Shouldn't have booked the Edmund Fitzgerld in response to (6).

9. Bermuda Triangle acting funky again.

10. S3s produced in Mexico blocked by new fence at the border.

11. Busy filling out latest SARBOX forms.

12. U.N. can't find anyone to monitor replacement of CableDVRs with S3s.

13. TiVo decided tri-tuner would really show those cable [email protected]@ards.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Looks like we found a a tight wad [email protected]@rd that will buy S3s. The conspiracy is falling apart.


you KNOW it!

LOL

actually i'll cough up a decent buck to buy at least one. But if i can get tehm for nothing all the much better!


----------



## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

HDTivo that was a great pot!


----------



## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

generalpatton71 said:


> HDTivo that was a great pot!


I was wondering what he was smokin'.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

greg_burns said:


> I was wondering what he was smokin'.


 :up: :up: :up:


----------



## Deacon West (Apr 16, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> Top Reasons Why S3 is 'Late'
> 
> 1. Secret warehouse of S3s in Haifa destroyed by Hezbolleze rocket.
> 
> ...


14. Quebec separatist steal all S3's from the Montreal warehouse and for their release demand all content be translated to French on the fly with the inability to play it back in any other language.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> It does frankly appear that FiOS Media Center will cost more _per month _ than S3(s), cable cards included.


How do you figure that? (just wondering)

$20/month (let's say) for the FIOS HD DVR.

Now, ASSUMING that the S3 counted for a multiple discount of $6.95/month, plus $3.50/month for dual CC, the cost of the unit (guessing at the "average" poll result of $500), AND assuming you kept it for 2 years, that would be more than the FIOS HD DVR. (not saying which one is better, as there are pros and cons for each).


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Top Reasons Why S3 is 'Late'
> 
> 1. Secret warehouse of S3s in Haifa destroyed by Hezbolleze rocket.
> 
> ...




I gotta say #13 is my favorite.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

m_jonis said:


> How do you figure that? (just wondering)
> 
> $20/month (let's say) for the FIOS HD DVR.


Its just that I am talking about the monthly cost.


----------



## classicX (May 10, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> Top Reasons Why S3 is 'Late'
> 
> 1. Secret warehouse of S3s in Haifa destroyed by Hezbolleze rocket.
> 
> ...


[/POLITICAL STATEMENT]??


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Deacon West said:


> 14. Quebec separatist steal all S3's from the Montreal warehouse and for their release demand all content be translated to French on the fly with the inability to play it back in any other language.


# 15 - same anti conspiracy group (JTTN) that stole the faked moon landing footage has also stolen the S3 props used at demos.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

16. Demand for hard copy backup of electronically stored recordings has sent TiVo engineers back to the drawing board (hey, what can I say, I'm a Florida voter).


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

At the risk of moving away from a seemingly popular post, TiVo has scheduled their Earnings Call for 8/30, which is more than a week earlier than last year's.

Time to get all giddy about the idea they might announce availability/shipping of the S3 on that date too.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Besides, its got to be in stores by the begining of September so everyone can watch all 6 Star Wars movies in HD on Cinemax. I see no other option.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> At the risk of moving away from a seemingly popular post, TiVo has scheduled their Earnings Call for 8/30, which is more than a week earlier than last year's.
> 
> Time to get all giddy about the idea they might announce availability/shipping of the S3 on that date too.


I'm still betting the S3 is available on S(ept.)3...or at least they'll take orders for it.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That would be awesome! I really, really, really want one of these before the new TV season starts up. And since most of the new shows don't start until late September this would give me enough time to precure one and hopefully get the CableCARDs installed. (my cable company said it could take up to 10 days when I asked about them )

Dan


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> Besides, its got to be in stores by the begining of September so everyone can watch all 6 Star Wars movies in HD on Cinemax. I see no other option.


Such faith this young padawan exhibits!

Cuz yeah, that's GOTTA be a reason to release it. You can't watch it in HD any other way. *ahem*live*ahem*


----------



## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> That would be awesome! I really, really, really want one of these before the new TV season starts up. And since most of the new shows don't start until late September this would give me enough time to precure one and hopefully get the CableCARDs installed. (my cable company said it could take up to 10 days when I asked about them )
> 
> Dan


If I do end up buying 1 or 2 S3s, I will probably keep my cable boxes for a few days or weeks just to make sure everything is smooth. I don't want to miss setting up a Season Pass and end up missing a show - it's not like my cable company DVR has a LIST THAT I CAN JUST WRITE DOWN.

Good grief, I can't wait.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Luckily my MOXI does have something similar to the Season Pass Manager, so I can go through and figure out all the HD SPs I need to move over. The tricky part is waiting for them to pop back up in the data so I can even set up the SP.

Dan


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> Nothing is holding up the S3. It's summertime.
> 
> Wait till fall, with kids back in school, people getting back to their non-vacation schedules and thinking more about mundane things like watching TV. Attention will focus on snazzy new HDTV sets offered for the holidays, and maybe a new TiVo which can record HD to go with it!


Note that season premiers start in about 2 weeks... now is the time!!!


----------



## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> Opinions are just that -- opinions. And in mine (after four months of frustrating use) the Sony DVR was NOT a good box. It did have good (not terrific) picture quality. I can't compare the TVGOS to any cable DVR guide, but I do agree it's MUCH more frustrating to use than TiVO. And clearly MUCH less reliable. BTW, $600 was how much I paid for it retail (new unit) from Crutchfield back in November. So, IMHO, not a good deal especially on eBay.


I dunno' what I'll eventually think of it, but I got the DHG-HDD500 today. The best first impression of it is that it appears to be capable of successfully integrating digital and analog listings from both OTA and cable. No other TVGOS listings that I've seen can do that. Tomorrow, after TVGOS downloads, I'll be able to confirm it.

Strangly enough Sylvania's modest SRZ3000, which is supposed to be an NTSC/ATSC OTA tuner (only), can receive all analog cable channels. Go figure!

Comcast is going to come out and install another coax outlet and a CableCARD for the Sony DVR, just before we're taking off for the first half of September. I asked about the installation charges and the outlet is $21. and CC installation $16. If they can't get CC to work, there'll be no charge for the attempt.

The CSR confirmed what I've always suspected; I'm being undercharged $5. monthly. There should be a $5. "additional outlet fee" on top of the $10. DVR rental. I've never tried to hide it, but because it's been billed that way for some time, Comcast's CSR didn't start charging more now. And, although I don't exactly understand why, there will also be no extra charge for the digital outlet for the CC'd Sony DVR.

Whenever Series 3 comes along it looks like it will fit in nicely with Comcast's digital offerings as well as OTA!


----------



## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

SCSIRAID said:


> Note that season premiers start in about 2 weeks... now is the time!!!


"Prison Break" starts tonight, though I believe that was mentioned earlier in the thread.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> ...The best first impression of it is that it appears to be capable of successfully integrating digital and analog listings from both OTA and cable....


That, to me, was the best thing about the Sony (and, I'm sure, it will also be a part of the S3 functionality). In the TVGOS, I just disabled the analog cable versions of the OTA HD locals I could pick up, and you could seamlessly channel surf from HD OTA to analog cable (I don't have digital cable). That was great.


----------



## calitivo (Dec 6, 2002)

I called the 877 BUY TIVO number today and was told that S3 would be available in October.


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## Lenonn (May 31, 2004)

bidger said:


> "Prison Break" starts tonight, though I believe that was mentioned earlier in the thread.


Having the Series 3's by the 28th of September would be nice. That's going to be the problem night, until/unless some shows meet a quick end.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

As long as it's out before 24 hits in January, I'm good. S3 will make a dandy Xmas gift in our house.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Welshdog said:


> As long as it's out before 24 hits in January, I'm good. S3 will make a dandy Xmas gift in our house.


A lot of MLB and NFL fans would have a problem with that time frame. Also, it would irritate a lot of folks that TiVo wouldn't hit their "2nd half of '06" deadline with that release date.


----------



## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

bidger said:


> A lot of MLB and NFL fans would have a problem with that time frame. Also, it would irritate a lot of folks that TiVo wouldn't hit their "2nd half of '06" deadline with that release date.


I'll accept December for delivery, which falls into the second half. I don't watch any sports. In fact sports tend to mess up our Tivoing in a big way. My wife curses like a sailor when one of our shows doesn't get completely recorded because football ran over.


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## Utahfab (Aug 22, 2006)

This may not be the best place to post . I'm new and notice that most "power" users have more than one tuner. This seems like a pain as it seems you would need to check each machine to record or watch a particular show. Has anyone heard if S3 will have the capability to daisy chain tuners where the first tuner has control to record or play data from any attached machine? Best scenario would be to have them talking to each other over ethernet so they can be used individually but also act like one big machine? I could sit and record or play shows to or from any DVR in the system and not have to move around or switch to use a second DVR.

Like I said I'm new and only have one series2 so it may be able to do this but I don't think so. For you people in the know. Is there any software / product that has this capability?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Utah,

The newer series2 Tivos has dual tuners can record two different programs at the same time. The Series3 can also record two different programs at the same time.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Utahfab said:


> For you people in the know. Is there any software / product that has this capability?


 ReplayTV has had this capability for years. From any RTV in the house you can schedule or playback recordings on any networked RTV. Also if you try and schedule a recording that would conflict with existing recording it automatically gives option of scheduling on a networked RTV that has that slot available instead. It was this capability that also allowed 3rd party tools such as DVArchive to allow real-time scheduling and conflict management over the intranet/internet (instead of using the ReplayTV web scheduling which is not real time).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I wish TiVo had a feature like that! Even with a dual tuner device there are still going to be conflicts, that's why I plan to get at least 2 S3 units. A feature like that would make scheduling anything completely seemless.

Dan


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## jgerry (Aug 29, 2001)

I certainly wish there was a current product (preferably a Tivo) that could handle scheduling conflicts just by adding units, and distribute the scheduled recordings amongst any available units on the network. That, and the ability to play back those shows over the network to other units would be most welcome. 

ReplayTV used to do all this?? Really? I had no idea. I guess living in Tivo-land since 2001 really spoiled me for checking out the competition.

Of course at this point, for me anyway, ANYTHING would be most welcome since I ditched my DirecTivo for the abysmally bad Comcast HD DVR. I'm quite ready to throw that thing out the window. But it does HD! Now I just have to keep waiting and see which drops first: the Series 3 or the Comcast/Tivo.


----------



## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

jgerry said:


> I certainly wish there was a current product (preferably a Tivo) that could handle scheduling conflicts just by adding units, and distribute the scheduled recordings amongst any available units on the network. That, and the ability to play back those shows over the network to other units would be most welcome.


That WOULD be brilliant.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i believe there has been a plug in for tivoweb (or maybe a standalone hck) that does it for years now. It checks for conflicts ever so many minutes and itf it finds a conflist it checks on the other tivo's to see if they have a free space and the schedule it on the other box. The deal database likely would be best source of info.

problem is- can you get tivoweb or hacks to work on newer models? I know newest directv units are pretty tightly locked down so I assume current gen stand alones are too?

I wonder if the scheduling stuff is open to HMO/HME/whatever it's called- so a developer could go that route?

One has to wonder if it would have been wiser to spend the time engineering the S2DT and just figure out a 'unified playlist' or 'automatic conflict management' for all their systems. IT would have been a powerfull addition to any tivo box- single or dual tuner. And would drive sales on second and third boxes. Probably tough sell with cable screaming "2- tuners" but maybe....

There's a marketing axiom that it's cheaper to sell your current customers additonal services rather then find new customers. Adding 2nd and 3rd boxes even with the 1/2 price discount might be more profitable then acquiring new subs. Requires less advertising and suport and makes churn even less likely- you'd have to guess someone with 3 or 4 boxes is less likely to leave than someone with just one box...


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## calitivo (Dec 6, 2002)

Go check out Engadget before Tivo gets on their case.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

calitivo said:


> Go check out Engadget before Tivo gets on their case.


Ouch! If the story's true, it took 4 cable cards to get it to work!

I like this quote: "-- but all that's irrelevant. If you're half as excited as we are about this thing then you're pretty mofriggin' stoked. " Yup!

And boy, doesn't that Cablevision box look like crap next to an S3???!!!


----------



## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

drew2k said:


> And boy, doesn't that Cablevision box look like crap next to an S3???!!!


That Humax looks circa 1975, what's up with that?

phox


----------



## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> (Successfully integrating digital and analog listings from both OTA and cable), to me, was the best thing about the Sony (and, I'm sure, it will also be a part of the S3 functionality). In the TVGOS, I just disabled the analog cable versions of the OTA HD locals I could pick up, and you could seamlessly channel surf from HD OTA to analog cable (I don't have digital cable). That was great.


The TVGOS system used by Sony's DHG-HDD500 is by far the best version of TV Guide that I have ever used. It actually is possible to manually map complicated channel line-ups across the spectrum of available analog and digital sources from both cable and OTA. They've even added some short-cuts to speed up the process.

That being said it's still a tedious process. In order to be a complete success TiVo's Series 3 will have to process automatically many functions that Sony's DVR requires be set up manually, and do so for two recording sources at the same time. Some major digital channels on our Comcast system appear to be somewhat flakey, in that they aren't always predictably receivable by one or more digital STB's that I use.

I won't have a CableCARD to test until right before I'll be gone for a couple of weeks, but it will be interesting to see if that method that method of accessing scrambled channels turns out to be problematic.

IMHO, TiVo has got to tread carefully when presenting Series 3. If glitches similiar to those which have plagued current SW versions become apparent along with even a hint of potential reception problems from digital sources, TiVo risks wounding itself. TiVo is MUCH better off holding back on Series 3 than succumbing to marketing pressures and user angst.

If customers produced digital recorders as easily as criticism on these TiVo Forums they'd be millionaires. But customers usually don't take risks; many criticize without direct knowledge of whatever may be going on behind the scenes. The ball is in TiVo's court, and as a customer I'm perfectly content with their making necessary decisions at their own pace regarding releasing their rather complicated new flagship DVR.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/22/series-3-tivo-in-the-wild/

no MRV (scratch that- should say no TIVO TOGO) - AT THE CURRENT TIME
no esata - AT THE CURRENT TIME

very fast

four cable cards AND 3 visits to get cablecard to work.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> no esata...


I think saying "no esata" is a bit misleading. The port is there; as someone else has mentioned the S2 had a USB port that was inactive for a year, but is now being used.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> I think saying "no esata" is a bit misleading. The port is there; as someone else has mentioned the S2 had a USB port that was inactive for a year, but is now being used.


good point- edited to be more clear.

I personally HOPE they plan to launch with the Esata inactive and enable it in a future version. I dont want to wait for them to beta and get that working.

I'll even volunteer to beta test teh esata port ont eh seris 3 (s) I buy.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm with you! I'd rather have a S3 now, without eSATA and TTG, then wait for them to test everything. As long as the hardware is there they can always upgrade the software to turn it all on later.

Dan


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I'm with you! I'd rather have a S3 now, without eSATA and TTG, then wait for them to test everything. As long as the hardware is there they can always upgrade the software to turn it all on later.
> 
> Dan


Any idea what the drive capacity will be? Multiple models with different sizes? Too soon to know?


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I believe it's going to be 250GB. Which should hold about 30 hours of HD.

Dan


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I believe it's going to be 250GB. Which should hold about 30 hours of HD.
> 
> Dan


Well, if it's 30 hours of HD, I may need that expansion port sooner rather than later...I'm comfortable with my 300 hr box in the living room and my 80 hr box in my bedroom feels tiny. I realize that SD programming will take up much less space such that overall, I'll have more than 30 hours to work with BUT with rumors of all these additional HD networks coming online (Bravo, USA, etc), it seems plausible that 30 hrs may be inadequate in the not to distant future.

PLEASE don't get me wrong, I want my S3 yesterday too! 30 hours? Fine! I'll make it work. Just get me away from this SA8300HD DVR box and back into a TiVo for all my recording ASAP!!!!!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I believe it's going to be 250GB. Which should hold about 30 hours of HD.
> 
> Dan


i think i might have so 300GB mentioned somplace- was I dreaming?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> I'm with you! I'd rather have a S3 now, without eSATA and TTG, then wait for them to test everything. As long as the hardware is there they can always upgrade the software to turn it all on later.
> 
> Dan


Dan, I'm with you and Michael! Gimmeeee......NOW!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> i think i might have so 300GB mentioned somplace- was I dreaming?


I believe Pony said that at CES, but then later corrected himself. The model number of the unit also points to a 250GB drive. i.e. the S3, as approved by CableLabs, is a TCD648*250*A the S2DT 80 hour is a TCD6490*80* and the 180 hour is TCD 649*180*.

Dan


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I believe it's going to be 250GB. Which should hold about 30 hours of HD.


Which isn't enough (says the guy with the 600GB HDTiVo), I'll be looking to bump that up to 1TB (2x500GB) if it takes 2 drives, or 750GB if it only takes one internally.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

My MOXI only has a 120GB hard drive and holds 12 hours of HD, so it'll be a big step up for me. Although whenever the eSATA port is active I'll probably add a 500-750GB drive to one of the units just in case. 

Dan


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> My MOXI only has a 120GB hard drive and holds 12 hours of HD, so it'll be a big step up for me. Although whenever the eSATA port is active I'll probably add a 500-750GB drive to one of the units just in case.
> 
> Dan


It would be pretty sweet if TiVo made a slim little box with the same footprint and style as the S3 that held up to six drives in an array. Then a person could add up to 2.5TB of storage -- which would be great for all the maniacs that seem to need hundreds of hours of TV available. Hell, maybe you could daisy-chain them, and have two or three. And it would look nice on the shelf for the rest of us who only want a bit more space.

Whatever they do, I just hope they are reasonable with the pricing on the extra storage. I don't mind paying a bit of a "TiVo premium" for properly-configured hard drives, but it would be painful to pay a big delta over disks you can buy at any electronics discounter.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There is actually a device called a port multiplier that can allow up to 5 SATA drives connect to a single SATA port and is completely transparent to both the host and the drives. They sell eSATA enclosures with 2-5 drive slots that have these boards in them for faily cheap. So as soon as the hackers figure out how to make their own eSATA drives for use with a S3 TiVo I'm betting we see a new TiVo King with 4TB system (250GB internal + 5 750GB external) capable of holding almost 500 hours of HD, 

Dan


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> There is actually a device called a port multiplier that can allow up to 5 SATA drives connect to a single SATA port and is completely transparent to both the host and the drives. They sell eSATA enclosures with 2-5 drive slots that have these boards in them for faily cheap. So as soon as the hackers figure out how to make their own eSATA drives for use with a S3 TiVo I'm betting we see a new TiVo King with 4TB system (250GB internal + 5 750GB external) capable of holding almost 500 hours of HD,
> 
> Dan


Cool! You wouldn't even void warranties with this approach!

With a quick search, I found a multiplier for around $85 and an enclosure for around $280. http://www.cooldrives.com/cosapomubrso.html

I'm sure more digging would find better/cheaper options.





































The only question is, what happens if one of the five external drives fails? In total, you have 6 drives that TiVo treats as one drive. If one fails, can you just replace one drive and recover quickly, losing only the programming bits stored on that drive?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I wonder if there is a SATA RAID controller. It might be possible for someone to engineer in the RAID controller on that board pictured above. I use an old PC with a PCI RAID controller that connects 4 or 5 SATA drives in a redundant configuration. This has now become my Terabyte RAID Network Storage Device. The only bad part is that I had to put it in my basement because it makes more noise than a 737!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

drew2k said:


> Cool! You wouldn't even void warranties with this approach!
> 
> With a quick search, I found a multiplier for around $85 and an enclosure for around $280. http://www.cooldrives.com/cosapomubrso.html
> 
> ...


well that is where price differences come from - find a cheaper one and it does not deal with drive failures - find a more expensive one where they engineered in RAID technology and there you go.

personally I am still happy with my decision to wait on HD and let the series 3 mature for year so all this type of stuff can be figured out. Even 80 hours was cramping me and I love my new DT with 500Gig drive. As long as I avoid looking at HD and duck the UMF of it I paln to enjoy my DT from TiVo and read all about the adventures of S3 here in the forum


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

drew2k said:


> The only question is, what happens if one of the five external drives fails? In total, you have 6 drives that TiVo treats as one drive. If one fails, can you just replace one drive and recover quickly, losing only the programming bits stored on that drive?


Based on what was said at CES the TiVo should be able to deal with a failure of the external drive without losing the internal drive. However if any one of the 5 external drives died you're probably be SOL unless you had some sort of RAID setup.

Here is another multipler I found that is a little more living room friendly and would work with TiVo branded drives if they were required for some reason...

http://www.cooldrives.com/sahub5muussi.html


















Dan


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> ...
> 
> Whatever they do, I just hope they are reasonable with the pricing on the extra storage. I don't mind paying a bit of a "TiVo premium" for properly-configured hard drives, but it would be painful to pay a big delta over disks you can buy at any electronics discounter.


I was under the impression that the buzz at CES is they wanted any old storebought STAT driove to be plug and play? That The tivo OS would just format it as needed and off you would go?

I think they said they might post a minimum spec but that they had no intention of making people buy only from them?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There were mixed reports on that. I don't think TiVo had, at the time, decided exactly how they were going to handle the eSATA port yet. So everyone was just giving their opinion.

Personally I think it would be wise for them to allow any drive to work, but who knows what they'll actually do.

Dan


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## TK421 (Feb 25, 2002)

Perhaps they'll treat it like the USB network adapters are now. Have a TiVo branded drive that's absolutely going to work and then have a list of third party drives that "should" work.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Based on what was said at CES the TiVo should be able to deal with a failure of the external drive without losing the internal drive. However if any one of the 5 external drives died you're probably be SOL unless you had some sort of RAID setup.
> 
> Here is another multipler I found that is a little more living room friendly and would work with TiVo branded drives if they were required for some reason...
> 
> ...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought all of the drives were treated as one large drive, and data for a recording could be on any and all of the drives? Wouldn't that mean if one drive failed, then ANY show that had data on that drive would be un-retrievable?

Or is TiVo planning to save a particular recording in its entirety to a single drive?

The reason I ask is that Cablevision's treatment of external drives on the SA8300 HD is to record titles across both drives, balancing the free space remaining. I don't have this set up, so I don't know if that means parts of a program are on both drives, or if this recording is saved to the internal drive and the next recording is saved to the external.

To put it another way - forget the drive failure issue and 5 eSATA drives in an external enclosure: What if I have an unmodified S3 and one eSATA drive. Will the season premiere of "Lost" be recorded across both drives or just one? If it's both, or saved only on the eSATA drive, when I unplug the eSATA drive will the title appear in the Now Playing List but generate an an error when I try to play it, maybe "Currently unavailable - please plug in the external drive assigned to this TiVo unit"? I would hate to think the premiere of Lost would be lost ...


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

From what I was told at CES recordings will span drives, remove the external drive and any recording with content on that drive is lost.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

drew2k said:


> The reason I ask is that Cablevision's treatment of external drives on the SA8300 HD is to record titles across both drives, balancing the free space remaining. I don't have this set up, so I don't know if that means parts of a program are on both drives, or if this recording is saved to the internal drive and the next recording is saved to the external.


The 8300HD's with SARA (which CableVision uses) record an entire show to a single drive. They pick either the internal or external drive based on which has the most space left (at the time the recording starts). Shows are stored in their entirety on either the internal or external drive ... and never spanned accross both.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

megazone said:


> From what I was told at CES recordings will span drives, remove the external drive and any recording with content on that drive is lost.


Thansk. I guess that means if you want to build the gianormous external eSATA drive expansion system we've been talking about, you definitely want RAID. Sounds expensive ...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

dt_dc said:


> The 8300HD's with SARA (which CableVision uses) record an entire show to a single drive. They pick either the internal or external drive based on which has the most space left (at the time the recording starts). Shows are stored in their entirety on either the internal or external drive ... and never spanned accross both.


Thanks. I was never sure how Cablevision implemented this. I think I like this concept better, because if the external drive tanks, you lose those recordings, but you don't have space consumed by recordings you can't retrieve on the internal drive.

Hopefully TiVo builds something into the software so that after a certain time period where the external drive fails or is disconnected, TiVo offers an option to reclaim the space taken up by titles that spanned the drives.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

BTW, the SATA port multipliers would require port multiplier support (on the S3). Port multiplier support is optional on eSATA ... Tivo could choose to support it (or not) ... their call.

If they don't, however, there are still eSATA 'Storage Appliance' devices that would still allow for multiple drives without port multiplier support. Or, at least, the chips and architecture are in place for such devices. For example, SiI's 4723 and 4726:
http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?id=64
http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?id=74

Anyway ... don't assume port multiplier support will be there. It may be ... but then again, it may not be.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Ahhh... I didn't realize that port multipliers had to be supported by the host. The site I read made it sound like they were completely transparent to the host.

Dan


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

This was just posted in AVS....

User MK153 reports.....

_It popped up in our system today at Best Buy - its "In-Stock" date is 9/17/2006 with a Best Buy SKU of 7974418 (UPC of 400079744186 and Model TCD648250B).

The price is $799.99

Thought all of you would like to know - That "In-Stock" date is for our warehouses - the "Street Date" field is left blank - but I am guessing "Coming Soon" is really damn soon._


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

SCSIRAID said:


> The price is $799.99


That's not a good thing.

phox


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

phox_mulder said:


> That's not a good thing.
> 
> phox


Perhaps it has a year of service included.... Hopefully.... I would still like to know how big the HDD is.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> I would still like to know how big the HDD is.





SCSIRAID said:


> Model TCD648*250*B


250GB


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

greg_burns said:


> 250GB


Same as the HR10-250, which equates to about 30 hours of HD programming.

phox


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

phox_mulder said:


> That's not a good thing.
> 
> phox


I agree. If that's the price without any service (I forget again what Tivo's policy will be on the Series 3 and multiple unit discounts), I guess I'll suffer with the TW DVR. Or wait a year and get FIOS with their Motorola unit.


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## ckelly5 (Feb 27, 2004)

m_jonis said:


> I agree. If that's the price without any service (I forget again what Tivo's policy will be on the Series 3 and multiple unit discounts), I guess I'll suffer with the TW DVR. Or wait a year and get FIOS with their Motorola unit.


I hear ya. that price and we only get 250GB? I certainly hope not. I'll probably go and buy one of those 750GB drives if it's anything under 400GB anyways. If I've got to pay $1200 total (for either an internal replacement drive or an eSATA drive), I'll just have to hold out for the Comcast release (and hopefully an eSATA drive to add onto the 120GB I have in the moto box)

Now if that's the price for a 2-3 year prepay, and maybe before rebate, then we're talking...


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

ckelly5 said:


> Now if that's the price for a 2-3 year prepay, and maybe before rebate, then we're talking...


No chance on the prepay, but if it is indeed MSRP, that would be before any rebate.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Comming 9/17 at $799

See Here


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

lessd said:


> Comming 9/17 at $799
> 
> See Here


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=313473


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I was right! I was right!  

Heheh....


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