# Revolution Pilot: Hulu/Web now, airs 9/17/12 SPOILERS



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I think this show has potential. Of course I'm a sucker for shows with a dystopian/post-apocolyptic future.

I like the characters so far, and the show made me want to find out more about that world. 

The swashbuckling fight scene near the end was pretty fun as well. I totally was surprised that the guy he was in the car with at the beginning was the General.

I hope they also get into some about how they're surviving, and showing cool non-electric ways of doing things. And specifics about the rules. For example fire works, and that means they should be able to build some sort of steam engine... and that could mean a train. Or steam powered trucks. Or whatever. I mean, the world wasn't totally going to hell in a handbasket before electricity was harnessed.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I enjoyed it too. I'm a sucker for anything with Giancarlo Esposito in it. I wonder how many of those "power cells" the woman was using at the end exist.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

I was floored at the two deaths in the beginning (one off-screen). 

Definitely enough to keep me around.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Gunnyman said:


> I enjoyed it too. I'm a sucker for anything with Giancarlo Esposito in it. I wonder how many of those "power cells" the woman was using at the end exist.


At least 3. 

I call them "undampeners" in my mind. Though I'm sure we'll get a name for them soon.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I noticed this last night on Hulu and watched it. I liked it enough to continue watching the show.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I enjoyed it enough to keep my interest.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

We will see how it goes. 

Did they mention how the mom died or just that she was dead? 

And of course the Lost moment...who is on the other end of the computer?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I think dad inferred that she was abducted by one of the bandits (like the ones on the plane)


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I read a book by SM Stirling that was mentioned on an earlier thread as maybe being what this was based on. The plot is totally different, but the premise is pretty close. Except on it, guns just don't work. To me, that makes all the sword fighting a little more reasonable. Here it's like they have really effective gun control, so everybody just went out and made themselves a sword and took fencing lessons. (and bows too). Would people really do that if no one but the government had guns all of a sudden? I guess that's the situation. Take a look, all you gun control advocates.  

Hopefully there will be lots of flashbacks--I doubt if Juliet was just in that one scene. It seemed really promising to me. :up:


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Here it's like they have really effective gun control, so everybody just went out and made themselves a sword and took fencing lessons. (and bows too). Would people really do that if no one but the government had guns all of a sudden? I guess that's the situation. Take a look, all you gun control advocates.


Well, their "really effective gun control" is a military dictatorship that says "if anybody but us has guns, we will kill them"...and people have guns anyway. Which seems kind of plausible on both ends (that the dictatorship would try for a monopoly, and that it wouldn't work).

The guns also seemed pretty primitive, which makes me think that some "modern" guns don't work for some reason.

(There was a LOT that was not said about what works and what doesn't.)


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I think modern guns work just fine, reference Gus' gun which appeared to be a Desert Eagle or something.

I'm thinking that after 15 years all the manufactured ammo is rare or scarce, so they use breach loaded guns because it's easy to hand mfg ammo. 

Just a guess though.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

It seems like the only way it can be explained it that there is some sort of hand-waving physics distortion field that makes certain technology not work, and then jammers which create a bubble in the distortion field to let technology work.

On the global pictures, it seemed like the center of the distortion field was either the east-coast US or possibly further east in or on the Atlantic ocean. You could see the lights go out in a circle expanding from that general region.

Of course, that shot was inconsistent with the shot of the cars' headlights going out, since with the cars the leading edge of the distortion field was traveling at maybe 90mph or less, whereas with the global picture the leading edge was traveling at maybe 1% of light speed.


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## Marc (Jun 26, 1999)

I would have liked to see more of the immediate aftermath to the incident, perhaps as a series of short vignettes showing the progression over the fifteen year period.


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

So if the power is out everywhere, how can the amulet allow things to work locally? Where is that power coming from for the computer, for instance? It's a sure bet that after 15 years the generators aren't spinning anymore.

Dave


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## bluntspoon (Aug 29, 2003)

It wasn't a huge pile of suck, which is what I was expecting. It wasn't that good either.

If you're going to enjoy the show you are going to have to suspend belief on all things related to physics. Just pretend it's an alternate Earth where things don't work quite the same way.

Also it won't hurt to pretend that aliens have introduced stupid pills into the water supply. That would explain a lot.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

bluntspoon said:


> Also it won't hurt to pretend that aliens have introduced stupid pills into the water supply. That would explain a lot.


Ha! I suppose it would. I kept thinking how stupid the militia were. It seemed their mission was to bring one of the brothers back alive (at all costs), and yet they killed the one and came very close several times to killing the other.


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## kimsan (Jan 23, 2002)

bluntspoon said:


> If you're going to enjoy the show you are going to have to suspend belief on all things related to physics. Just pretend it's an alternate Earth where things don't work quite the same way.


That would explain the airplane falling vertically in a flat spin...momentum has also been cancelled out! And here I thought it was just power and whatever else might be convenient to the plot!

That said, I'm kinda intrigued and will give it a few weeks to gel or die.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

My explanation is alien invasion. Aliens have seeded the entire planet with undetectable nanobots programmed to do things that appear to mess with physics or chemistry or biology. After earthlings spend a millennium or two devolving technologically and mentally, the aliens will appear and act as gods to the primitive humans, enslaving them, and using them to mine the earth for rare elements.


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## BradJW (Jun 9, 2008)

Really liked the show. The last scene was kinda stupid though.

Gal typing on computer: They were here.
Computer typing back: Did they get it?

The gal should have responded with: "Duh, I'm still typing on the computer. Obviously they didn't get it you fool!"

Other than that, I liked it a lot.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BradJW said:


> Really liked the show. The last scene was kinda stupid though.
> 
> Gal typing on computer: They were here.
> Computer typing back: Did they get it?
> ...


You are making the assumption that they are talking about the device she is using. Since she needed the device to make the PC work, I would think they are talking about something else.


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## BradJW (Jun 9, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> You are making the assumption that they are talking about the device she is using. Since she needed the device to make the PC work, I would think they are talking about something else.


I really doubt it. I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but I think they were talking about that device and just made a minor screw-up.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Is/will it be a free download on Amazon? Will check later.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Enjoyed it more than I thought I would. More than whatever the Dinosaur show was from last year.

Anything to get my Giancarlo Esposito fix. And I too think we'll see the mom again at some point, off screen death makes me not trust the death.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

It was good but it was so Hunger Games-Postman-Terra Nova. Esposito was wickedly delightful but I was disappointed when I didn't see Elizabeth Mitchell in the '15 years later' scenes. She did such a convincing job in 'Running Scared' as a sick-F* pedophile that I like seeing her in good-guy roles.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Beryl said:


> It was good but it was so Hunger Games-Postman-Terra Nova.


??? Those three movies have very little in common...


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Didn't hate it and will add a SP, but didn't think it was that great either. I think I am too cynical of these shows now after years of flop after flop. (Alcatraz, FF, TN, The Event, Bionic Woman, etc..)
The main character (the girl Charlie) kind of bugged me for some little reasons. Her whole outfit looked like a cheap Katniss Everdeen Halloween costume.


















BradJW said:


> Really liked the show. The last scene was kinda stupid though.
> 
> Gal typing on computer: They were here.
> Computer typing back: Did they get it?
> ...


I said nearly the same thing. I hope that she has some other item that they were talking about, or the writers are just jerking our chains to build up the mystery of what the H is going on.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ??? Those three movies have very little in common...


All 3 have Post-apocalyptic communal survivalists, military/militia conflict in common. The young female warrior reminds me of "The Hunger Games".


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

I enjoyed the full episode preview that I saw via DirecTV's VOD. looks like it will keep me interested, though somewhat miffed as well. there were a few issues I hope will be addressed during the series.

The main one that nagged at me was towards the end after the militia left the woman's house and she used the device to power up a pc/modem unit and connect to talk with someone. 

My issue is, it did not seem to be at a pre-arranged time, or otherwise scheduled contact, but an ad-hoc one. So my question is, was the other person waiting with their PC on the whole time? I suppose the modem they have could be set to wake up the pc on connect, but seems unlikely. 

It even raises another question... how are they connecting via modem? With effect we saw the blackout have on power, telephone switches etc... would be down as well and the modems would not be able to connect. 

Ought to be interesting how they explain breaking the laws of physics.

I would have liked to see a bit more about the immediate fall of civilization and the immediate aftermath of the blackout.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Dude in a hatch somewhere on an island.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

It was about as dumb as I thought it would be.

Just shows that Favreau needs a good story to do magic, and this ain't it.

I'll another ep or two but I'm likely very resistant to getting hooked. The only character I'd root for is the nerd.

"I have 80 Million in the bank and right now I'd trade it a for a roll of Charmin."


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

robojerk said:


> Didn't hate it and will add a SP, but didn't think it was that great either. I think I am too cynical of these shows now after years of flop after flop. (Alcatraz, FF, TN, The Event, Bionic Woman, etc..)


Jericho.

The dialog was very much like it was written by the Hollywood hack "choose your own adventure from these cliche's" method.

"No time to talk. Listen carefully...":
...

"Put down your gun!"
"Just leave and leave us alone."

Does that _ever_ work?



robojerk said:


> I hope that she has some other item that they were talking about, or the writers are just jerking our chains to build up the mystery of what the H is going on.


Or like with Alcatraz (miserable) and even Breaking Bad (excellent) the writers have the haziest of ideas how the story will go and count on figuring it out as they go along.

Prediction: It gonna turn out that Giancarlo's Captain is not such a bad guy. So far he hasn't directly killed anybody and he ordered the end to the shootout.

The kid will remain nasty, but his weakness will be how he's smitten by Ms. Tank Top.


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## GAViewer (Oct 18, 2007)

I know that to watch most fiction I have to have a "willing suspension of disbelief" and I could use it for the removal of electricity. But this show is pushing it with presence of fire but no steam engines. I mean a large part of first industrial revolution (no pun intended) was powered by steam. Also water power was used extensively before electricity yet there were no signs of water powered mills even when there were nice dams already in place.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

JJ Abrams was on Today. He said writers never know how it will end up until they see how it plays out. He said they do know the story of what's behind the power failure.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

GAViewer said:


> I know that to watch most fiction I have to have a "willing suspension of disbelief" and I could use it for the removal of electricity. But this show is pushing it with presence of fire but no steam engines. I mean a large part of first industrial revolution (no pun intended) was powered by steam. Also water power was used extensively before electricity yet there were no signs of water powered mills even when there were nice dams already in place.


I agree, if you can have fires, hot soup, how do combustion and steam motors stop working? 
I think the writers were more worried about taking our modern world and it's people to a pre-industrial revolution one where all of physics is broken, than thinking about if any of it makes sense with the physics of their new world. If it was just electricity then the cars wouldn't have powered down on the freeway, also the planes turbines would have kept spinning so no falling tubes of death falling down on the suburbs. I think I'm going to have issues with this show but SP remains. I'll try not to complain too loudly on these forums.

Imagine if the soldiers rolled into the town with one of these (and horses), I think it would have been way cooler.

Steam Powered Car


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

kimsan said:


> That would explain the airplane falling vertically in a flat spin...momentum has also been cancelled out!


That plane did fall wrong. But there was a lot of momentum to the projectiles at the village fight. An arrow knocked a charging man backwards!



netringer said:


> Prediction: It gonna turn out that Giancarlo's Captain is not such a bad guy. So far he hasn't directly killed anybody and he ordered the end to the shootout.


 No, he ended the fight by shooting a bunch of people down.

And the Google guy should be thinner and tougher after 15 lean years.


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

robojerk said:


> If it was just electricity then the cars wouldn't have powered down on the freeway, also the planes turbines would have kept spinning so no falling tubes of death falling down on the suburbs.


A car will not run without electricity, nor will a jet liner fly without electricity. The only exception to the car might be a diesel, but even there modern diesels are controlled by engine computers, just like the fuel is pumped by electric fuel pumps on jet airliners, even the ones that still don't use modern electric run avionics. On a lot of the newer planes, the avionics use electrically powered hydraulic actuators to move the rudder, elevator, etc. Fly by wire, and that requires electricity.

Dave


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## GAViewer (Oct 18, 2007)

robojerk said:


> If it was just electricity then the cars wouldn't have powered down on the freeway, also the planes turbines would have kept spinning so no falling tubes of death falling down on the suburbs.


Well modern cars and trucks need electricity to run the computer which controls the engine. Old cars need electricity to power the spark plugs, but old trucks with diesel engines should have kept running however they would be a bear to start without electric starters. Jet engines also should have kept running however the avionics to control the plane depend on electricity.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> I think modern guns work just fine, reference Gus' gun which appeared to be a Desert Eagle or something.
> 
> I'm thinking that after 15 years all the manufactured ammo is rare or scarce, so they use breach loaded guns because it's easy to hand mfg ammo.
> 
> Just a guess though.


There are some pretty big stockpiles out there. They made mention of Monroe having control of leftover military resources ("tanks, planes...") so that would probably include a fair bit of ammo as well. Only rationale I can come up with is that the militia isn't "regular army", so they don't get the good guns (but then, why wouldn't he send his best troops after such an important target?).

Even in civilian hands there ought to be enough to go around. My brother works with a nutjob "prepper" who cashed in his retirement funds to buy hundreds of thousands of rounds for his farm --enough to shoot every man, woman, and child in the surrounding counties 5 times each?! And that's just one nut out of many (apparently the guy got the 5 rounds per inhabitant rule from a website).

Speaking of which: if the dad knew this was (or even could be) coming, why didn't he prepare better beforehand? He, and to some extent his wife, were obviously in on the conspiracy ahead of time (wifey knew what he was talking about when he said "it's happening"). Yet the show implied that he just bought some groceries and started filling bathtubs. If he knew something that huge was likely to happen, he ought to have stockpiling like mad and making other arrangements as well. Even if he was trying to keep it on the down-low, he should have been able to amass enough supplies over time that he wouldn't be so panicked over one bathtub-full of water and some extra ramen noodles.



mrdbdigital said:


> So if the power is out everywhere, how can the amulet allow things to work locally? Where is that power coming from for the computer, for instance? It's a sure bet that after 15 years the generators aren't spinning anymore.
> 
> Dave


A massive E/M field capable of disrupting electrical power (including batteries) over a wide area would probably be capable of supplying power as well. A better question would be: if the electro-chemical processes in a simple battery don't work, how the heck do _people_ work? We're just a bundle of electro-chemical processes ourselves...


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Watched it last night and it didn't grab me the way LOST did for instance. I'll leave the SP for now. Also, the uncle's fighting abilities were way over the top.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I'm not an expert on planes, but I kind of doubt jet liners would just fall from the sky without electricity. I would think they would need more redundancies than that. 

Still, why no combustion or steam engines?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> Still, why no combustion or steam engines?


I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I hold out hope that they've thought this out beyond "Wouldn't it be cool if the lights went out and planes crashed from the sky?" There's no evidence that they have, but so far there's no evidence that they haven't (us not understanding after one episode without an explanation is not evidence of anything).


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## Blurayfan (Oct 6, 2003)

mattack said:


> Is/will it be a free download on Amazon? Will check later.


It's not on Amazon at least yet. However the Pilot is available for FREE download on iTunes currently.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I hold out hope that they've thought this out beyond "Wouldn't it be cool if the lights went out and planes crashed from the sky?" There's no evidence that they have, but so far there's no evidence that they haven't (us not understanding after one episode without an explanation is not evidence of anything).


There is no direct evidence that they haven't thought it out, but there is circumstantial evidence -- the fact that no one here has been able to come up with a good explanation (and I don't mean that it has to be rigorously correct, just remotely consistent with the fantasy) suggests that there likely is no good explanation possible. Whatever explanation they eventually give is likely to be full of holes.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> There is no direct evidence that they haven't thought it out, but there is circumstantial evidence -- the fact that no one here has been able to come up with a good explanation (and I don't mean that it has to be rigorously correct, just remotely consistent with the fantasy) suggests that there likely is no good explanation possible. Whatever explanation they eventually give is likely to be full of holes.


That may be.

Or it may be that their science adviser is smarter and more knowledgeable than us.

I'm willing to wait and see.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or it may be that their science adviser is smarter and more knowledgeable than us.


It has nothing to do with a science adviser. There is no possible scientific explanation that can fit with what has been shown. As I said, any possible explanation would be fantasy. The only question is whether it will be consistent with itself, or full of holes.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> It has nothing to do with a science adviser. There is no possible scientific explanation that can fit with what has been shown. As I said, any possible explanation would be fantasy. The only question is whether it will be consistent with itself, or full of holes.


JJ Abrams usually likes to throw in some supernatural elements.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Aliens or God--must be 1 or the other.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

john4200 said:


> There is no direct evidence that they haven't thought it out, but there is circumstantial evidence -- the fact that no one here has been able to come up with a good explanation (and I don't mean that it has to be rigorously correct, just remotely consistent with the fantasy) suggests that there likely is no good explanation possible. Whatever explanation they eventually give is likely to be full of holes.


Science, schmience. It's all just theory, you elitist!

Remember the Titanic-sized holes in Alcatraz. This turkey already has bigger ones.

They really are pushing the "girl with a bow" angle.

BTW, another cliche is the "just when one of the overwhelming army gets the drop on our hero, the bad guy gets shot by the smirking off-screen cast member." IAIRC they did that twice in about a 2 minute span.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

netringer said:


> They really are pushing the "girl with a bow" angle.


Yeah but it is a crossbow with a hand crank, so she's a sissy.


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## GAViewer (Oct 18, 2007)

robojerk said:


> I'm not an expert on planes, but I kind of doubt jet liners would just fall from the sky without electricity. I would think they would need more redundancies than that.


Older plane's flight control systems are electromechanical that is electric motors power hydraulic systems to operate the flight control surfaces. With more modern planes the flight control surfaces are operated directly by electric motors. Then the latest planes are fly by wire which means in truth the controls the pilot uses don't directly control any of the flight surfaces, but tell a computer what the pilot wants done and the computer actually controls the plane. Now I assume they have redundant sources of electricity, redundant motors and redundant computers. But in all cases without any electricity the pilot loses control of the plane.

So I can buy without good sources of electricity jet liners fall from the skies. Now smaller gas powered plans would lose power when the spark plugs stop working but should be able to glide to the ground since the pilot controls have cables to the control surfaces and work fine without electricity.

But I do have a hard time thinking of a reason for them to not use steam power and especially not use water power. During the industrial revolution water power was used in a lot of places.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Re steam power. 


We've seen one episode. 

Give it time.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

netringer said:


> Science, schmience. It's all just theory, you elitist!


No, no, no! Act'lly I'm an elidist, defi'ly not an elitist.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

I hope it is internally consistent. What if the "laws" of physics have just changed? I am thinking of the ideal gas law, PV=nRT. What if R, the gas constant, has changed, or is no longer a constant? All steam engines, whether powered by wood, coal, gas, fission, etc, rely on behavior of gasses under pressure, as do diesel and gas internal combustion engines.

If laws of electromagnetism also changed, perhaps electric motors fail too. I am thinking specifically of electromagnetic induction. A change to Maxwell's equations would wreak havoc.

Changes to Newton's laws of motion could explain planes falling out of the sky and perhaps even limiting the speed of travel. KE=0.5mv^2. What if the modifiers to mv changed radically? Same thing with potential energy. What if the gravitational "constant" wasn't constant, but dependent on other factors?

Yeah, I know this couldn't happen, but it could be done consistent internally. It'd be cool if they started writing the series after coming up with a new set of laws. (I think we can ignore relativity and quantum mechanics. Newton's laws were good for a long time, and still are most of the time).

[I haven't watched the pilot yet, so speculation is based on scenarios I've read in this thread]


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

justen_m said:


> Yeah, I know this couldn't happen, but it could be done consistent internally.


Not really. Such changes would have much wider reaching effects than just causing certain technologies to fail.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Not really. Such changes would have much wider reaching effects than just causing certain technologies to fail.


That's true. Heck, just the human body alone would probably cease to function.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

The best explanation I can think of is that it is some sort of targeted nanomachine plague -- specifically designed to target the technologies that have failed.

However, that explanation does not explain how fast it happened. Self-reproducing nanomachines that feed on electricity (etc.) would probably take months to spread over the world. Certainly not in less than a minute like we saw. Perhaps that could be explained by saying the nanomachines were spread dormant and later activated by a light-speed signal. But during the months when the dormant nanomachines were spreading, many people would have surely detected them.

Also, they would be visible with microscopes, so surely someone would have figured out the cause fairly quickly, even if they could not do anything to stop it.

Whatever the cause is, it has to be basically invisible, able to spread around the world at hypersonic speeds, and specifically targeted to certain technologies. I think the writers have really written themselves into a hole they can never get out of. Well, barring acts of god, as stellie93 suggested.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I'll betcha JJ Abrams and the writers are watching these discussions to find the best explanation so they can write it up.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

netringer said:


> I'll betcha JJ Abrams and the writers are watching these discussions to find the best explanation so they can write it up.


I doubt they care.. 99% of the viewers don't obsess on the interwebs about such details, however if there are no answers then eventually viewers will get frustrated like us.


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## Hiho (Sep 17, 2012)

netringer said:


> JJ Abrams was on Today. He said writers never know how it will end up until they see how it plays out. He said they do know the story of what's behind the power failure.


That story will be a tricky one. Batteries don't work, but turning chemical energy into charge separation (electricity) works just fine in human nervous systems ... 
Along with steam engines, they'll need to explain the absence of diesel.

There's also this question: If the failure of electricity caused airplanes to start pinwheeling, why are their running lights still on? Answer: because otherwise the audience couldn't see them!

Good science fiction doesn't penalize the audience for actually thinking about the questions it brings up, so Revolution is shooting for passable at best. At the moment it's looking to do that by being a gamish of Jericho, Hunger Games, and probably Lost.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

There was a somewhat disturbing interview with showrunner Eric Kripke on Blastr where he goes on at some length about his approach to the show...and not once mentions what happened.

My hopes for the intelligence of the show just dropped considerably...


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There was a somewhat disturbing interview with showrunner Eric Kripke on Blastr where he goes on at some length about his approach to the show...and not once mentions what happened.
> 
> My hopes for the intelligence of the show just dropped considerably...


Well, I hope they don't just expect the audience to accept that this is "just the way things are" without any back story. I absolutely love shows/books/movies with apocalyptic themes but can't stand when the foundation of the story is nonexistent.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TampaThunder said:


> Well, I hope they don't just expect the audience to accept that this is "just the way things are" without any back story. I absolutely love shows/books/movies with apocalyptic themes but can't stand when the foundation of the story is nonexistent.


I need either more or less. If there's going to be any kind of explanation (e.g., "the electricity stopped working"), then it has to make some kind of sense. But if it's less specific (e.g., "civilization crumbled because of some catastrophe"), I can live with that.

But it doesn't sound like it matters to Kripke beyond "Wouldn't it be cool if the electricity stopped working," without thinking about what that means. Which is unfortunate, it that's really the way they're going. But I'll still wait and see. The proof is in the pudding.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There was a somewhat disturbing interview with showrunner Eric Kripke on Blastr where he goes on at some length about his approach to the show...and not once mentions what happened.
> 
> My hopes for the intelligence of the show just dropped considerably...


His comparison of Revolution to Tolkien is very disturbing. Not only is the comparison poor, he seems to have no idea of how much time and work Tolkien put into creating the background for his story.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

john4200 said:


> The best explanation I can think of is that it is some sort of targeted nanomachine plague -- specifically designed to target the technologies that have failed.


SMEEK. That's what I said on post #17.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

justen_m said:


> SMEEK. That's what I said on post #17.


#18, your focus was on the alien aspect. I was exploring the nanomachine aspect, especially the holes in the theory -- it is inconsistent. My point is that nanomachines are the least inconsistent explanation I can think of, but it still has major problems. So I don't have much hope for the series coming up with an explanation that has no major consistency problems.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

robojerk said:


> I'm not an expert on planes, but I kind of doubt jet liners would just fall from the sky without electricity. I would think they would need more redundancies than that.
> 
> Still, why no combustion or steam engines?


Or Hydraulics (I Know steam engines can be considered hydraulics, but I'm referring to things like hydraulic presses or actuators).


----------



## ffneil (Sep 17, 2012)

Why is this on the same night as Football?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Hiho said:


> That story will be a tricky one. Batteries don't work, but turning chemical energy into charge separation (electricity) works just fine in human nervous systems ...
> Along with steam engines, they'll need to explain the absence of diesel.
> ...


I was going to mention diesel vehicles. In that scene where they watch all the lights on the highway going out in line, the diesel cars and trucks would be running fine until they were shut off or ran out of fuel. The glow plugs for starting need power but you could cobble heating the cylinders from a fire and push start or somesuch.

I would say that airplanes and cars run fine without a battery but they need the electric magneto and ignition to fire the spark plugs.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I need either more or less. If there's going to be any kind of explanation (e.g., "the electricity stopped working"), then it has to make some kind of sense. But if it's less specific (e.g., "civilization crumbled because of some catastrophe"), I can live with that.
> 
> But it doesn't sound like it matters to Kripke beyond "Wouldn't it be cool if the electricity stopped working," without thinking about what that means. Which is unfortunate, it that's really the way they're going. But I'll still wait and see. The proof is in the pudding.


I'm with you. This is very much smelling to be a cartoon. I doubt I'll stay with it for more than a few shows.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

netringer said:


> They really are pushing the "girl with a bow" angle.


Worked for "Brave" 

In fact so well, my 6yo daughter added a bow/arrows to her Christmas list. So she can "shoot the deer in the backyard" lol.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

netringer said:


> the diesel cars and trucks would be running fine until they were shut off or ran out of fuel.


1) Only if they had mechanical fuel pumps and not electrical ones.

2) Automotive Diesels nowadays are EFI. No computer to run the fuel solenoids, no fuel injection.

--Carlos V.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Terra Nova and this show sucked me in with their previews. And both were disappointing.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Was going to mention...

It took "General Monroe" 15 years to remember that Miles warned his brother about the event right before it happened?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

netringer said:


> Was going to mention...
> 
> It took "General Monroe" 15 years to remember that Miles warned his brother about the event right before it happened?


I predict that Charlie's mom is with Monroe or something... I mean he would need to know how the power, magic, physics, stuff turned off in order to turn it back on.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Not very far into it and I see myself dumping ths one pretty quickly. I just not have the patience I did before with shows like this especially with as easily as they cancel them.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

netringer said:


> Was going to mention...
> 
> It took "General Monroe" 15 years to remember that Miles warned his brother about the event right before it happened?


Well, he only heard one side of the conversation. The only clue he would have had was the last thing Miles said which was "what do you mean, what's gong to turn off?"

Even if Monroe did put 2 and 2 together, he might not been in a position to do anything about it until now, or been searching for Ben and Miles for awhile before he found out where they were. It takes a fair amount of time to build up a post-apocalyptic empire.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There was a somewhat disturbing interview with showrunner Eric Kripke on Blastr where he goes on at some length about his approach to the show...and not once mentions what happened.
> 
> My hopes for the intelligence of the show just dropped considerably...


Considering that he recently spent 5 years on a show with essentially no rules at all (Supernatural) I'm not surprised he isn't all that concerned with a few limitations of physics.

I wish this program had half the attitude and fun that Supernatural did during his time there. I don't know how a post-apocalyptic show can do that, but if it doesn't inject some lighter stuff it's going to collapse under the weight of it's own seriousness.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

The discussion here is far more interesting than the show was. The cheesy soundtrack and silly wardrobe made it hard for me to take it seriously. The scenes with the bow wielding militia guy were almost MST3K bad.

I felt myself having a hard time suspending disbelief at all of the inconsistencies. The airport runway is all grass after 15 years? Does Tarmac require electricity to prevent it from breaking down? Or would it just look cool if the runway was all grass, cause that fits the look of the show better?

I might give it another episode, but I'm not sure if I can make it through another one.


----------



## mchasal (Jun 6, 2001)

justen_m said:


> I hope it is internally consistent. What if the "laws" of physics have just changed? I am thinking of the ideal gas law, PV=nRT. What if R, the gas constant, has changed, or is no longer a constant? All steam engines, whether powered by wood, coal, gas, fission, etc, rely on behavior of gasses under pressure, as do diesel and gas internal combustion engines.


We've seen that firearms work, so burning powder still makes an expanding gas that creates pressure. Maybe it's "changed" such that a gun will still fire, but other things won't work? I dunno, but I'm thinking it's more some variation on EMP where "fancy 'lectric stuff no work good no more".

There's a lot of things that bother me about this show, and most of them seem like just a little thought would have improved things.

I can even overlook the plane crash, sorta. So the event made all the control surfaces go wonky, so it got into that spin, I suppose enough of that could dump most of it's forward momentum, at least it wasn't on fire  A more realistic crash would have worked just as well though.

All filmmakers aren't past the "gunshots make people fly back 10 feet" thing, yet? And the whole lack of modern firearms is odd. Sure, guns are illegal for the citizens, so they have mostly bows and stuff, but there are way too many hand reloading presses in basements around the country that people use to make modern cartridges, so the regression of the mililita all way back to Civil War era tech muzzleloaders seems out of place and unnecessary. Not to mention that many of those basements with the reloading presses would have modern firearms that would have been confiscated when the firearm ban went into place. If the time frame were much longer than 15 years, I might believe it.

I get that Ben had to die for the story to move forward, but no one seemed to bother to come up with a plausible way for that to happen. The militia guy, who fires the first shot, at close range, and is probably a pretty decent shot, manages to shoot the one guy they're after? Really? It would have been so much more believable (though cliche) if Ben got hit somewhere in the crossfire that ensued after.

I get they're trying to make "Lost 2", but I think they're going to have to start thinking a lot harder about the details.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

I'm just going to say that I liked it, will set a season pass and then I will back out of the thread. I don't have a desire to pick it apart.

I will say the first show that popped in my head as a comparison was not Terra Nova or The Hunger Games. For me it had more of an Jericho vibe.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I hadn't thought of Terra Nova till that was mentioned here, but I hope it is better than that ended up. My SP is set and I will give it a few more episodes to see how it all plays out.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

The first episode sure had a high body count.

They've done a remarkable job of preserving their clothing stocks for 15 years.

Traveling on foot in winter is going to suck. What have they got to barter for food along the way?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Seems like a cheesy rip off / mash up of a bunch of recent pop culture things. Hunger games meets lost meets falling skies. Not as good as falling skies so far, which is not exactly a masterpiece, but I'm enjoying it well enough to keep it for now somehow. Perhaps it fills the "dumb show I for some reason watch" void left by Smallville.

So far Esposito is the most interesting thing about this show.


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## jamesl (Jul 12, 2012)

vman41 said:


> ...
> 
> They've done a remarkable job of preserving their clothing stocks for 15 years.
> 
> ...


yeah, that was the first thing I noticed

that guy and that girl went hunting and then went into the old rv/camper they found

the boy's shirt looked like it just came from the store, it was whiter than white; 
seriously, spotless, no tatters, no smudge, not even a loose thread

and did I mention WHITE

so for what, 10 years with no electricity and the clothes look like that ?

I changed the channel as soon as he got the asthma attack

the series will never make it to season 2


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

I see some mentions of Terra Nova. Based on just the Revolution pilot (it could get better), I think that Terra Nova was much better, especially if you just compare pilot to pilot. I think Jericho was also better, though I lost interest in that after several episodes. Revolution is on a whole different level of cheesy than Terra Nova and Jericho. And comparing this to LOST? I don't think so. It reminds me more of a Hunger Games knockoff you might see on the Syfy channel.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

As usual I see if the premise of the pilot is enough to get me to tune in again and this pilot did that. I will then give it a couple weeks to find its footing and see if I still want to watch. I very rarely make a knee jerk reaction on a pilot.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

vman41 said:


> The first episode sure had a high body count.
> 
> They've done a remarkable job of preserving their clothing stocks for 15 years.
> 
> Traveling on foot in winter is going to suck. What have they got to barter for food along the way?


How do you know there is still winter?


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

zordude said:


> How do you know there is still winter?


Yeah, and if everything with electricity is f'd up, is there any lightning anymore??


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

robojerk said:


> ...Still, why no combustion or steam engines?


That was my thought as well? Steam powered locomotives?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ffneil said:


> Why is this on the same night as Football?


Why not?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> Why not?


The odds are not in his favor...football night is Monday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday, sometimes Friday...


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

netringer said:


> I was going to mention diesel vehicles. In that scene where they watch all the lights on the highway going out in line, the diesel cars and trucks would be running fine until they were shut off or ran out of fuel.


But their headlights would still go out.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I loved the shout out to Lou Malnati's pizza...


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I agree that the Terra Nova pilot was better. Too bad the episodes that followed the pilot of Terra Nova were such a steaming pile of donkey crap. I would be very surprised if Revolution's subsequent episodes are as bad as that. Anyway it was just a pilot. Remember when we used to keep that in mind when reviewing pilots? Those were the days...


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The odds are not in his favor...football night is Monday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday, sometimes Friday...


....then, of course, there's college football....:down:


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> We've seen one episode.
> 
> Give it time.


This. Sooooooooooo this.

There are a lot of questions that I have, but geez, people, the entire pilot cannot be exposition. Let's see how it unfolds. For me, it was enough that Aaron (the Google guy) opened up the episode by pointing out to his "students" that "the laws of physics just stopped working" or something, and how ridiculous that sounded. So the writers have acknowledged that things like planes shouldn't just fall from the sky, etc.

About the guns - didn't the soldiers guarding Monroe's tent have some sort of submachine guns? I thought I remembered them holding something that looked like an Uzi.

About Monroe and why it took him so long to track down Miles and Ben - a) He only heard Miles' side of the conversation, b) there was 15 years between then and now, and I would guess that a good portion of that was devoted to survival, and then another good portion to building up his forces, and he could have easily forgotten the one half of the conversation that he heard, or at least not realized its significance until much later; and c) He and Miles were in South Carolina when the lights went out, and I'm going to assume that he probably stayed in that vicinity for awhile building up his power base. Perhaps Miles set out to find his brother and the two parted ways. So there's no reason that Monroe would know exactly where to find the two brothers - once he decided that he needed to - and it's not like they had access to the internet to help narrow the search or for rapid transportation options to cover the ground between S. Carolina and Illinois.

In other words - be patient.


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> Watched it last night and it didn't grab me the way LOST did for instance. I'll leave the SP for now. Also, the uncle's fighting abilities were way over the top.


I agree 100%! There have been a lot of posts with inconsistencies that you just have to ignore in order to watch the show. But the one thing that bothered me the most was the uncle's fighting abilities. Its one thing where Beatrix Kiddo in Kill Bill takes on the Crazy 88 Gang and kills or maims all of them with only a few cuts and scratches for herself. But that is a fantasy type of film. Where as this is supposed to be real people. (Of course if we have to believe all electricity is gone than maybe we have to believe a regular guy, albeit ex-military, could take on so many attackers.)

Anyway, not as bad as I thought it would be and I'll be sticking with it for now!

Gerry


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

Gerryex said:


> I agree 100%! There have been a lot of posts with inconsistencies that you just have to ignore in order to watch the show. But the one thing that bothered me the most was the uncle's fighting abilities. Its one thing where Beatrix Kiddo in Kill Bill takes on the Crazy 88 Gang and kills or maims all of them with only a few cuts and scratches for herself. But that is a fantasy type of film. Where as this is supposed to be real people. (Of course if we have to believe all electricity is gone than maybe we have to believe a regular guy, albeit ex-military, could take on so many attackers.)
> 
> Anyway, not as bad as I thought it would be and I'll be sticking with it for now!
> 
> Gerry


I just assumed that all of the world's electricity had been absorbed into the uncle's body, making him a superhuman fighter (and also a helluva bartender).


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## StacieH (Jan 2, 2009)

tivoboyjr said:


> I just assumed that all of the world's electricity had been absorbed into the uncle's body, making him a superhuman fighter (and also a helluva bartender).


And he's hawt!


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> I agree that the Terra Nova pilot was better. Too bad the episodes that followed the pilot of Terra Nova were such a steaming pile of donkey crap. I would be very surprised if Revolution's subsequent episodes are as bad as that. Anyway it was just a pilot. Remember when we used to keep that in mind when reviewing pilots? Those were the days...


I don't know that I would call this "just a pilot" when it has Bad Robot behind it with Jon Favreau directing. I would hope they would have come up with something less corny than this. However, I will give it another episode in case they ditch the cheesy music and start explaining things in an interesting way. I did like the Google guy character.


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

tivoboyjr said:


> I just assumed that all of the world's electricity had been absorbed into the uncle's body, making him a superhuman fighter (and also a helluva bartender).


:up::up:


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

It was also mentioned that it had taken quite a while to find the brother.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Gerryex said:


> (Of course if we have to believe all electricity is gone than maybe we have to believe a regular guy, albeit ex-military, could take on so many attackers.)


I don't know if we have to assume that he's just a regular ex-military guy. For one, according to the now-deceased Ben, Miles' greatest skill was killing people. I'm sure we'll find out he was some sort of Special Forces operator or something.

And I doubt the militia is all that highly-trained. Sure, some of the higher-ups are probably ex-military (given that Monroe is as well), but I'm sure they just recruit (or draft) big/strong guys and give them a weapon and some very rudimentary training.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

It would surprise me if special forces were trained in swordplay like that.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

In case anyone wants to read it there is an interview with some of the technology concerns talked about over at TV Line

http://tvline.com/2012/07/24/nbc-revolution-burning-questions-answered/


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> It would surprise me if special forces were trained in swordplay like that.


Probably not, but they are trained extensively in hand-to-hand combat and improvisational fighting, and I'm sure that he picked up the sword-fighting skills along the way, and proved somewhat adept at it. It's certainly not implausible.


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## GameGuru (Dec 12, 2003)

I went back and rewatched it and during the scene on the highway where all the cars lights are shutting off and where the plane spins down and crashes, if you look in the sky there are fast moving flashing lights shooting through the sky. This must be what is turning the power off.


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

I liked most of the pilot quite a lot. The crazy science didn't bother me -- it's an unknown event that changed things in ways nobody (well, almost nobody) understands, so I was able to suspend my disbelief about what worked and what didn't. The super clean clothes and beautiful hair full of product did kind of bother me, but hey, it's network TV, you have to expect that sort of thing. And I'm a sucker for the post-apocolyptic genre.

It was like Jericho (really a LOT like Jericho) but the acting was a lot better, and there was no ridiculous SuperJake, so I was happy. Then came the scene with Miles killing the entire regiment, and sigh. It was SuperJake all over again. Ugh. I rolled my eyes and groaned. Now it's _just like_ Jericho, with SuperMiles, but with better acting. Sigh.

I'll keep my SP for now. I just hope it's not another show where, every single week, they get themselves into jams and ridiculous SuperMiles just miraculously kills 20 people in the last 10 minutes and they all survive. Because that gets really annoying, really quickly.


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## GAViewer (Oct 18, 2007)

But there is so many things that don't depend on electricity.

We see a field of the military people staying in rows of white canvas tents with large heavy wooden poles. Did all the modern tents evaporate, but there was canvas still around? The military would have stockpiles of modern light weight tents. 

All the windows in the background of every building are badly boarded up. Making glass is one of the oldest technologies. If I wanted to survive a Chicago winter I would want glass windows.

Where did they find all the broad swords? It would have made more sense if people had machetes and regular knives. 

Why didn't they travel on roads? It might be impossible to get and use asphalt for repairs. But survivors would need to trade and it would be easier to keep existing roads clear instead of depending on trails.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

GAViewer said:


> But there is so many things that don't depend on electricity.


That was my point about the airport Tarmac being overgrown with grass. It makes no sense that that would happen in 15 years. They just did it because it fit in with the overall look/feel they wanted for the show. Same with the tents.


----------



## GAViewer (Oct 18, 2007)

As for Miles fighting ability. In TV shows and movies the bad guys are always bad shots, and they almost always attack the good guy one or two at the time so that he can handle them.

The story appears to be a monomyth or hero's journey with Charlie as the hero, Miles as the mentor and protective figure and the other two as helpers. Nate as the tempter.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Ruth said:


> I'll keep my SP for now. I just hope it's not another show where, every single week, they get themselves into jams and ridiculous SuperMiles just miraculously kills 20 people in the last 10 minutes and they all survive. Because that gets really annoying, really quickly.


More specifically Miles will kill guy #10 as another guy behind him is ready to deliver the fatal blow on Miles noggin only to be felled from behind by an arrow from the unseen until now crossbow girl.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

GAViewer said:


> But there is so many things that don't depend on electricity.
> 
> All the windows in the background of every building are badly boarded up. Making glass is one of the oldest technologies. If I wanted to survive a Chicago winter I would want glass windows.
> 
> ...Why didn't they travel on roads? It might be impossible to get and use asphalt for repairs. But survivors would need to trade and it would be easier to keep existing roads clear instead of depending on trails.


More. Have we seen anybody riding a bicycle?

You know windows need electricity.

Ya think they figured out not only how to quickly breed lotsa horses but to set up the infrastructure to grow feed?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

netringer said:


> Ya think they figured out not only how to quickly breed lotsa horses but to set up the infrastructure to grow feed?


They should solve two problems at once -- feed them plants from the walls and runways.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

GAViewer said:


> All the windows in the background of every building are badly boarded up. Making glass is one of the oldest technologies. If I wanted to survive a Chicago winter I would want glass windows.


But how many people still know how to make glass? And how many of them survived the apocalyptic event? I know I don't. And without access to proper reference materials, how would I learn? I mean *maybe* my local branch library would have a book that would explain how, but what if it burned down as society devolved? What if someone used that book to start a fire? I think most people would just board up the window as they worked on trying to survive.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

It would have been totally awesome if Gioncarlo Esposito said his former job before the blackout was a Chicken restaurant owner.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

GAViewer said:


> All the windows in the background of every building are badly boarded up. Making glass is one of the oldest technologies. If I wanted to survive a Chicago winter I would want glass windows.


Windows would be the first thing broken when rioting breaks out.

Tough crowd here.

I'm not saying that I thought the pilot was fantastic (but I do think it was better than the pilots for V, The Event, and Terra Nova) but there's enough to see where this goes for a while.

Kripke gave us Supernatural so that earns him some latitude with me.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> This. Sooooooooooo this.
> 
> There are a lot of questions that I have, but geez, people, the entire pilot cannot be exposition. Let's see how it unfolds. For me, it was enough that Aaron (the Google guy) opened up the episode by pointing out to his "students" that "the laws of physics just stopped working" or something, and how ridiculous that sounded. So the writers have acknowledged that things like planes shouldn't just fall from the sky, etc.


SOOOOOOO this. The character said the laws of physics were broken. As far as I'm concerned, that's all we need to know. The world created by this show is completely different than ours, and I don't care whether the world they created is plausible based on our understanding of science. I like the basic idea, and will definitely be watching to see what additional info they provide in upcoming episodes.

I certainly didn't expect the entire backstory and mystery of the show to be solved in one episode. 


DreadPirateRob said:


> About Monroe and why it took him so long to track down Miles and Ben - a) He only heard Miles' side of the conversation, b) there was 15 years between then and now, and I would guess that a good portion of that was devoted to survival, and then another good portion to building up his forces, and he could have easily forgotten the one half of the conversation that he heard, or at least not realized its significance until much later; and c) He and Miles were in South Carolina when the lights went out, and I'm going to assume that he probably stayed in that vicinity for awhile building up his power base. Perhaps Miles set out to find his brother and the two parted ways. So there's no reason that Monroe would know exactly where to find the two brothers - once he decided that he needed to - and it's not like they had access to the internet to help narrow the search or for rapid transportation options to cover the ground between S. Carolina and Illinois.


Don't forget that Monroe was hammered that night, as well. When we saw the flashback of them walking back into the base, he still seemed blitzed, and that was probably a couple hours after the "event."


GameGuru said:


> I went back and rewatched it and during the scene on the highway where all the cars lights are shutting off and where the plane spins down and crashes, if you look in the sky there are fast moving flashing lights shooting through the sky. This must be what is turning the power off.


No, those were airplanes falling from the sky.


----------



## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

DLiquid said:


> That was my point about the airport Tarmac being overgrown with grass. It makes no sense that that would happen in 15 years. They just did it because it fit in with the overall look/feel they wanted for the show. Same with the tents.


A parking lot of a nearby vacant office building has gotten covered with grass and weeds in less than a third of that time.


----------



## GameGuru (Dec 12, 2003)

> No, those were airplanes falling from the sky.


Ok you might be right.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

jay_man2 said:


> A parking lot of a nearby vacant office building has gotten covered with grass and weeds in less than a third of that time.


Did planes used to land on it?  I think the concrete at the airport would likely look very much like it does now 15 years after the loss of electricity, rather than the grassy plain with small trees that we saw in the show.

I don't think they're going for realistic with this show. A large expanse of concrete does not fit in with the look they are going for, hence the grassy plain with small trees. Modern tents don't go with the look, hence the white canvas tents held up with wood and rope. Bicycles don't go with the look, so there are no bicycles (though I have to imagine there will be some in later episodes, maybe the old fashioned kind with one tiny wheel and one really big wheel ).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DLiquid said:


> I don't think they're going for realistic with this show. A large expanse of concrete does not fit in with the look they are going for, hence the grassy plain with small trees. Modern tents don't go with the look, hence the white canvas tents held up with wood and rope. Bicycles don't go with the look, so there are no bicycles (though I have to imagine there will be some in later episodes).


Don't forget that modern tents and modern bicycles and modern guns, etc. all require electricity and mass-manufacturing techniques to build parts keep things operational. At some point, the stockpile of modern tents and bikes and other such things would get worn out and broken, and there would be no good way to fix them.* Hence, the return to natural materials that can be fashioned with manual tools.

*I realize it would take a lot longer than 15 years for all the bikes in the world to get broken beyond repair. But the point remains. Modern stuff would eventually break and would not be repairable without modern technology.


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## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

jay_man2 said:


> A parking lot of a nearby vacant office building has gotten covered with grass and weeds in less than a third of that time.


A parking lot is typically only several inches to about 10 inches thick depending on expected volume and weight of vehicles. On average, you can expect a parking lot at a typical office building to be 4-7 inches. A runway at O'Hare would be about 4 feet thick. The apron (gate/parking areas) would be 1.5 to 2 feet thick. In addition, runways at large commercial airports tend to be made with concrete, while parking lots tend to use asphalt. Concrete is much more durable than asphalt.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Flop said:


> A parking lot is typically only several inches to about 10 inches thick depending on expected volume and weight of vehicles. On average, you can expect a parking lot at a typical office building to be 4-7 inches. A runway at O'Hare would be about 4 feet thick. The apron (gate/parking areas) would be 1.5 to 2 feet thick. In addition, runways at large commercial airports tend to be made with concrete, while parking lots tend to use asphalt. Concrete is much more durable than asphalt.


I don't think anyone is saying that grass would grow up through the concrete of a runway. But after many years of neglect, it would be very plausible for a layer of dirt to build up on top of the concrete, and grass and weeds could easly grown in that dirt.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Flop said:


> A parking lot is typically only several inches to about 10 inches thick depending on expected volume and weight of vehicles. On average, you can expect a parking lot at a typical office building to be 4-7 inches. *A runway at O'Hare would be about 4 feet thick*. The apron (gate/parking areas) would be 1.5 to 2 feet thick. In addition, runways at large commercial airports tend to be made with concrete, while parking lots tend to use asphalt. Concrete is much more durable than asphalt.


Not quite. An airport runway may be 4 feet when accounting for subbase and compacted soil placement, but the actual concrete itself would be probably be somewhere between 12-18" (for instance, the Denver airport has 17" cement runways).


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that grass would grow up through the concrete of a runway. But after many years of neglect, it would be very plausible for a layer of dirt to build up on top of the concrete, and grass and weeds could easly grown in that dirt.


There were small trees growing there too, but I won't harp on the grassy airport complaint anymore.


----------



## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Gerryex said:


> But the one thing that bothered me the most was the uncle's fighting abilities. Its one thing where Beatrix Kiddo in Kill Bill takes on the Crazy 88 Gang and kills or maims all of them with only a few cuts and scratches for herself.


Quoting because it made me laugh. I thought the same thing.



Ruth said:


> It was like Jericho (really a LOT like Jericho) but the acting was a lot better, and there was no ridiculous SuperJake, so I was happy. Then came the scene with Miles killing the entire regiment, and sigh. It was SuperJake all over again. Ugh. I rolled my eyes and groaned. Now it's just like Jericho, with SuperMiles, but with better acting.


Agreed. I caught Jericho reruns and was sad when it was cancelled. I'll keep my SP because I don't watch anything else on Mondays.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Don't think it's been noted yet in this thread that the ratings for the pilot were huge:

From TVbythenumbers:



> The highly anticipated premiere of Revolution garnered a huge 4.1 18-49 rating, making it the highest rated drama debut in three years (since ABC's V, 5.2) and the highest rated NBC drama debut in 5 years (Bionic Woman, 5.7). It was up 39% from a 2.5 for last week's preview of The New Normal in the time period and up a whopping 156% from the premiere of the shortlived The Playboy Club last season (1.6.). It is also up 8% from the premiere of Smash on February 6, 2012, which also had The Voice as a lead-in.


Obviously there have been similar series that started high and quickly went downhill, but hopefully the audience will stick around for this and it will become a bona fide hit.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I notice the two shows they cite as even-higher premiere ratings are V (ulp) and Bionic Woman (ULP!)...


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

robojerk said:


> I agree, if you can have fires, hot soup, how do combustion and steam motors stop working?
> I think the writers were more worried about taking our modern world and it's people to a pre-industrial revolution one where all of physics is broken, than thinking about if any of it makes sense with the physics of their new world. If it was just electricity then the cars wouldn't have powered down on the freeway, also the planes turbines would have kept spinning so no falling tubes of death falling down on the suburbs. I think I'm going to have issues with this show but SP remains. I'll try not to complain too loudly on these forums.
> 
> Imagine if the soldiers rolled into the town with one of these (and horses), I think it would have been way cooler.
> ...


Even if the planes turbines kept spinning would there have even been a way to control them? With fly by wire system?


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Don't think it's been noted yet in this thread that the ratings for the pilot were huge:
> 
> From TVbythenumbers:
> 
> ...


Since V?? We all know what happened to that show. Although it did at least make it to a second season.

I watched the revolution pilot again last night. Although I FF through some of it. I think my GF is even interested in watching this.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Yes, there's no guarantee that the ratings for this show won't fall off a cliff, as they did for The Event, FlashForward, V, Bionic Woman, etc. But at least they started high. That gives the producers a lot more rope to work with. The ball is now in their court to see if they can keep the audience interested.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

jay_man2 said:


> A parking lot of a nearby vacant office building has gotten covered with grass and weeds in less than a third of that time.


Asphalt or concrete?


----------



## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> Asphalt or concrete?


Asphalt. While I could concede the concrete argument, it didn't seem all that out of place to me given my frame of reference to see it portrayed that way.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, there's no guarantee that the ratings for this show won't fall off a cliff, as they did for The Event, FlashForward, V, Bionic Woman, etc. But at least they started high. That gives the producers a lot more rope to work with. The ball is now in their court to see if they can keep the audience interested.


This, exactly. The high* ratings don't mean anything other than give the show a little breathing room, and possibly a chance at drawing other viewers who may want to check it out.

* relatively speaking, of course.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

DLiquid said:


> Did planes used to land on it?  I think the concrete at the airport would likely look very much like it does now 15 years after the loss of electricity, rather than the grassy plain with small trees that we saw in the show.


Yeah, the abandoned runway that they use on Mythbusters all the time isn't overgrown.

I liked seeing Billy Burke (Miles) be such a badass!

And the girls is hot!


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Didn't read the whole thread.. Watched it last night.

The girl (Charlie) totally reminded me of someone, and it bugged me for a few minutes until it came to me -- from some angles, she reminds me of a younger version of Trishelle from "Real World" (almost exactly 10 years ago). She's not related.

I thought it was pretty good, I'll keep watching, as long as no conflicts with shows I like better happen.

The fighting seemed pretty well done -- yeah annoying that the arrow made the guy fly backwards.

You can poke holes in a lot of the other inconsistencies.. Since the kid eating ice cream was made a big deal -- can't you make ice cream without a freezer? At least without an electric freezer? You still have the ideal gas law to make things colder..


----------



## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Not quite. An airport runway may be 4 feet when accounting for subbase and compacted soil placement, but the actual concrete itself would be probably be somewhere between 12-18" (for instance, the Denver airport has 17" cement runways).


Ah yeah, I was quoting total depth including the subbase. You are correct, the actual concrete for wide body capable runways would be about 17-20". The extension to 32L at O'Hare done back in the 80's I think was 21" thick concrete.


----------



## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

Rewatched the pilot and have a few more thoughts. The Dad downloaded something to a USB flash drive that he then put into something that looked like the power supply teh woman used to power the PC at the end. It also looked like what he gave Google guy.

So does google guy have the USB drive or a power supply?
Also how old are google guy's glasses. since they apparently don't have the means to make glass as evidenced by the boarded up windows, his prescription must be pretty old, so old as to be useless. Not to mention teh frames look to be in good shape.

So Charlie lived with Dan and Mom near Chicago, and Bro Miles was in South Carolina. 

How did Miles get to Chitown and why did they all move? Also why is Monroe there rather than being based in the south east?

Hopefully we'll get some answers.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Craigbob said:


> Also how old are google guy's glasses. since they apparently don't have the means to make glass as evidenced by the boarded up windows, his prescription must be pretty old, so old as to be useless. Not to mention teh frames look to be in good shape.


I've had the same glasses (lenses and frames) for almost 10 years. My prescription is very stable, so there hasn't been the need to change. Granted, I only wear them at night after I take my contacts out, so I'm not that rough on them.

I suspect that when you're in that situation, you just make do.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Craigbob said:


> Also how old are google guy's glasses. since they apparently don't have the means to make glass as evidenced by the boarded up windows, his prescription must be pretty old, so old as to be useless. Not to mention teh frames look to be in good shape.


My prescription has been stable for about 10 years.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I suspect that when you're in that situation, you just make do.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

With all the swordplay, why no dismemberment or blood? When a bullet strikes, there is an immediate puff of atomized blood, but nothing from slashing blades?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

getreal said:


> With all the swordplay, why no dismemberment or blood? When a bullet strikes, there is an immediate puff of atomized blood, but nothing from slashing blades?


Standards & Practices are strange people.


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

mattack said:


> -- yeah annoying that the arrow made the guy fly backwards.


Glad to see others noticed that as well. Must have been one heavy-ass arrow!

I'm really anxious to hear the reason electricity doesn't work anymore. The Goggle guy did say something about the laws of physics going wonky or something didn't he?


----------



## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

I will give this show one more episode. I found it a little weak. That bother me the most was the lack of tear and wear on their clothes. Everyone scene had brand new leather and shirts like it was an Abercrombie catalog. LOL.

Also, spending some days in the woods while traveling to Chicago can probably make you a little dirty. Not on this show, everyone is pristine.

I get it, but something had very little production value (e.g. the blood in the face of the father when dying. Look like paint). 

The whole planet reverted to the 1800's when the electricity went out.


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Does the Google guy not do any manually labor? Like Hurley, why is still so fat? (Unlike Hurley, he had 15 years to lose weight.)


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> My prescription has been stable for about 10 years.


Even if his eyesight had degraded, wearing the old glasses would still be far better than going without.


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

loubob57 said:


> I'm really anxious to hear the reason electricity doesn't work anymore.


<Colonel O'Neill>
Magnets!
</Colonel O'Neill>


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Enjoyed it okay. Agree with those that they need to be a little bit more gritty. Not so hollywood...


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

In purgatory, clothes probably remain clean and vegetation probably grows at an alarming state. I'm just sayin'


----------



## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

getreal said:


> With all the swordplay, why no dismemberment or blood? When a bullet strikes, there is an immediate puff of atomized blood, but nothing from slashing blades?


With all the swordplay I half expect Adrian Paul or Christoper Lambert to pop out of the shadows saying "There can be only one". Where are the quickenings anyway?


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Dirty clothes must be a nightmare for the continuity supervisor.


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

dtle said:


> Does the Google guy not do any manually labor? Like Hurley, why is still so fat? (Unlike Hurley, he had 15 years to lose weight.)


Hurley got fatter after being stuck on the island. So maybe Google guy was thin when the power went out.


----------



## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

As my wife said after watching it with me - if they concentrate on the story rather than the (ridiculous) fighting we think the show has potential. Otherwise, we'll both lose interest rather quickly.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Maui said:


> I'm just going to say that I liked it, will set a season pass and then I will back out of the thread. I don't have a desire to pick it apart.
> 
> I will say the first show that popped in my head as a comparison was not Terra Nova or The Hunger Games. For me it had more of an Jericho vibe.


This. Really, I don't care about the scientific plausibility. I consider this fantasy, and for me anyway, anything goes. Jericho though had a more realistic scenario. I think it's kind of a cross between Jericho and FastForward, neither of which lasted too long. I think you might throw in a bit of Falling Skies too.

There were less "scientific" things I guess that bothered me. One, it seemed to take them like 5 minutes to get from wherever they were living to Chicago, and, while I don't know Chicago too well, I've flown into O'Hare a few times, and I don't remember full forests surrounding it. Also, in 15 years, wouldn't you think those planes would have been stripped bare? Seemed weird the AC/DC guy would be looking for medical stuff in the plane (but I did love how he worked for a company named "Google". The other thing that really bothered me is that they get into Chicago, and the first place they encounter, the Grand Hotel or whatever it was called, just happened to be the place they find the uncle.

Still I found it kinda fun, and entertaining, and I'll give it a few more weeks at least. I don't think you can expect that they will explain everything in ONE episode, and in fact, I'm glad they didn't. I think some folks here watch these types of shows to come here and pick holes in it, after ONE hour.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I don't know if we have to assume that he's just a regular ex-military guy. For one, according to the now-deceased Ben, Miles' greatest skill was killing people. I'm sure we'll find out he was some sort of Special Forces operator or something.
> 
> *And I doubt the militia is all that highly-trained. Sure, some of the higher-ups are probably ex-military (given that Monroe is as well), but I'm sure they just recruit (or draft) big/strong guys and give them a weapon and some very rudimentary training.*


I also wonder if these militias are similar to those in Africa in structure. They mentioned when trying to capture Ben that if he didn't comply they were going to "recruit" his kids. So maybe this is how they assemble numbers, they threaten and kidnap their legions.


----------



## squigy0 (Mar 20, 2003)

DLiquid said:


> Bicycles don't go with the look, so there are no bicycles (though I have to imagine there will be some in later episodes, maybe the old fashioned kind with one tiny wheel and one really big wheel ).


Nope, not a chance! http://www.cracked.com/article_19325_6-technologies-conspicuously-absent-from-sci-fi-movies.html


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

markz said:


> Yeah, the *abandoned* runway that they use on Mythbusters all the time isn't overgrown.


I don't think that word means what you think it means.


Craigbob said:


> Rewatched the pilot and have a few more thoughts. The Dad downloaded something to a USB flash drive that he then put into something that looked like the power supply teh woman used to power the PC at the end. It also looked like what he gave Google guy.
> 
> So does google guy have the USB drive or a power supply?


Ben downloaded something from the internet just before the power went out and he plugged it into that amulet. Later, we saw him give the amulet to Aaron (Google guy) because he didn't want Giancarlo Esposito and the militia guys to get it. Later still, we see the lady in the house had a similar amulet, and it powered up her computer. So clearly the one Aaron has should be able to do the same, but he doesn't know it yet.


Steveknj said:


> There were less "scientific" things I guess that bothered me. One, it seemed to take them like 5 minutes to get from wherever they were living to Chicago, and, while I don't know Chicago too well, I've flown into O'Hare a few times, and I don't remember full forests surrounding it.


I don't think they said this was O'Hare, did they? Could have been any number of smaller airports between whereever they were living and Chicago.


Steveknj said:


> Also, in 15 years, wouldn't you think those planes would have been stripped bare? Seemed weird the AC/DC guy would be looking for medical stuff in the plane.


I agree with this. No way there would be any supplies left on that plane after 15 years. In fact, I'm surprised the plane was intact. I'd think people would either be living in it or would have totally dismantled it and repurposed the parts.


Steveknj said:


> The other thing that really bothered me is that they get into Chicago, and the first place they encounter, the Grand Hotel or whatever it was called, just happened to be the place they find the uncle.


Just before Ben died, he told Charlie that "My brother Miles is in Chicago. At the Grand on Walton Place. Miles is there. He can get Danny." So it wasn't random chance that they found him in that particular hotel. They were specifically instructed to go there.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

markz said:


> Yeah, the abandoned runway that they use on Mythbusters all the time isn't overgrown.





DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think that word means what you think it means.


That statement was what you felt was quote-worthy? I like the picture better!

Actually, I should have said, the _retired _runway.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

markz said:


> That statement was what you felt was quote-worthy? I like the picture better!
> 
> Actually, I should have said, the _retired _runway.


I like the picture better, too. Just didn't have any reason to quote it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Speaking of "swordplay"...

Avast, me hearties!
Just a shot across yer bow to warn ye that today, Wednesday, September 19, is the 10th Annual International Talk Like A Pirate Day (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html, https://www.facebook.com/InternationalTalkLikeAPirateDay?ref=ts).
So I'll be lookin' to all ye salty dogs to be deliverin' the lingo smartly, or be keelhauled!


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Gerryex said:


> But the one thing that bothered me the most was the uncle's fighting abilities. Its one thing where Beatrix Kiddo in Kill Bill takes on the Crazy 88 Gang and kills or maims all of them with only a few cuts and scratches for herself. But that is a fantasy type of film. Where as this is supposed to be real people.





DreadPirateRob said:


> I don't know if we have to assume that he's just a regular ex-military guy. For one, according to the now-deceased Ben, Miles' greatest skill was killing people. I'm sure we'll find out he was some sort of Special Forces operator or something.


Yeah, but he's _old_. He was portrayed as older in the car with Monroe ("Call her." "She's 22, she doesn't talk on the phone!") so 15 years later he should be _at least_.... 45? A 45 year old fighting machine. I assume that "keeping a low profile" doesn't include hours of martial arts practice daily.



Steveknj said:


> There were less "scientific" things I guess that bothered me. One, it seemed to take them like 5 minutes to get from wherever they were living to Chicago,
> ...
> The other thing that really bothered me is that they get into Chicago, and the first place they encounter, the Grand Hotel or whatever it was called, just happened to be the place they find the uncle.





DevdogAZ said:


> Just before Ben died, he told Charlie that "My brother Miles is in Chicago. At the Grand on Walton Place. Miles is there. He can get Danny." So it wasn't random chance that they found him in that particular hotel. They were specifically instructed to go there.


They did know to go to the Grand, but did they have any maps? How did they find it? The city is a big place. Even if their village was a former suburb, that's a long walk in less than 2 days.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think they said this was O'Hare, did they? Could have been any number of smaller airports between whereever they were living and Chicago.


The sign said "Ohare"


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> They did know to go to the Grand, but did they have any maps? How did they find it? The city is a big place. Even if their village was a former suburb, that's a long walk in less than 2 days.


Who said it was only two days? And why couldn't they just ask people who were in the city to point them to the Grand or to Walton Place. Seems pretty simple to me. The filmmakers don't need to show every bit of minutae. They have to assume the audience has some level of intuition.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> The sign said "Ohare"


OK, I didn't see that sign. I stand corrected.


----------



## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think they said this was O'Hare, did they?


There was a sign that said it was O'Hare.


tlc said:


> They did know to go to the Grand, but did they have any maps? How did they find it? The city is a big place. Even if their village was a former suburb, that's a long walk in less than 2 days.


They also managed to get from O'Hare to Wrigley Field in, what, about half a day?

Meanwhile, here's another question: if, presumably, all of the military bases are deserted and/or occupied by militias, when who controls the material in the nuclear weapons? You would think they would have a significant advantage, even if there's no real way of setting any of them off without having to be there to cause the critical mass in the first place.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

That Don Guy said:


> They also managed to get from O'Hare to Wrigley Field in, what, about half a day?


It's only about 12 miles, so it's possible. But the real question is why did they go past Wrigley if they're going from O'Hare to downtown? That seems way out of the way.

Why did it have to be the same day? There's no reason they had to show us every part of their journey. For all we know, that trip from their village to Chicago took two weeks.

Their "village" looked like the model homes built at the start of a new subdivision, but then the rest of the subdivision never got built. Yet there were no other homes around in the surrounding area. So it seems that their village is far enough on the outskirts of Chicago that the surrounding area wasn't totally filled with infrastructure. We know that O'Hare is NW of downtown Chicago. So how far would you have to go to the NW of Chicago before you found a subdivision being built in an area with no other houses around for miles? Is there something like that 20 miles outside town? 50 miles outside town?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

That Don Guy said:


> ...They also managed to get from O'Hare to Wrigley Field in, what, about half a day?....


It's only about 15 miles....half day is very reasonable. I could do that in 3-4 hours easily...


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

tlc said:


> Yeah, but he's _old_. He was portrayed as older in the car with Monroe ("Call her." "She's 22, she doesn't talk on the phone!") so 15 years later he should be _at least_.... 45? A 45 year old fighting machine. I assume that "keeping a low profile" doesn't include hours of martial arts practice daily.


45 is the new 30.

He doesn't have to be 45 though.
His rank was given as Sergent when they returned to base so if he enlisted at 18, I'm guessing that making Sergent by the time he was 25 isn't totally unreasonable.

So he could be 40 or younger.

As to the whole physics going crazy thing, here's my random theories just spitballed out:

1. Alien technology causing all of this. Perhaps from Area 51.
The USB flash drives containers don't look terrestrial.

2. The Earth has moved into a zone of Space that contains an anti-technology field.

3. The supernatural or magic. If this was in say Buffy, someone could have cast an anti-technology spell.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

tlc said:


> Yeah, but he's _old_. He was portrayed as older in the car with Monroe ("Call her." "She's 22, she doesn't talk on the phone!") so 15 years later he should be _at least_.... 45? A 45 year old fighting machine. I assume that "keeping a low profile" doesn't include hours of martial arts practice daily.


/shrugs

It's not like he was using some elaborate fighting style. He was basically brawling and using his surroundings to his advantage. It's a pretty safe bet that, post-"Event", society devolved pretty quickly to a fairly lawless and brutal existence (at least judging by just about every post-apocalyptic story ever told), so for many people adjusting to whatever weapons were available would be a necessary survival skill. Especially if, as it appears, you had to walk from South Carolina to Chicago.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Some things I noticed and from the posts here I've some ideas.

*Why use trails instead of roads?*
Roads don't always offer the most direct route and without powered transportation the shortest route generally makes for the least amount of travel time. Addionally, roads might very well be patrolled or in use by the governing authority, be targets for undesirables, etc.

*How did that plane fall like it did?* 
Did a little Googling and found out that the glide ratio of a 747 is 15:1. Fifteen feet forward for every foot fallen. Apparently that's very good and if the plane was at altitude and in control near a city would easily be able to make it to an airport. Add to that control surfaces out of control and it's easy to see that if perhaps in a powered off mode the flaps go full on that would cause the plane to stall and drop out of the air.

*Roads and paved surfaces gone or grown over?*
If the home we saw at the beginning of the show was the same one we saw later on, it's apparent that the road and driveways were dug up and the land used to plant crops. Other paved surfaces without some kind of human intervention might last a while longer, but after 15 years grass would likely grow to cover unused paved areas and plant life cause cracks large enough for small trees to take root.

*What about glass?*
In the absence of weapons of any type I'd think that shards of glass might have been the first thing at hand. Also, the larger buildings would likely have been the targets of vandalism or scavenging.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think they said this was O'Hare, did they? Could have been any number of smaller airports between whereever they were living and Chicago.


There was a sign on the fence that said O'Hare (said a bunch of more stuff, but definitely said O'Hare on it.



> Just before Ben died, he told Charlie that "My brother Miles is in Chicago. At the Grand on Walton Place. Miles is there. He can get Danny." So it wasn't random chance that they found him in that particular hotel. They were specifically instructed to go there.


Totally missed where he said exactly where in Chicago he was.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> Some things I noticed and from the posts here I've some ideas.
> 
> *Why use trails instead of roads?*
> Roads don't always offer the most direct route and without powered transportation the shortest route generally makes for the least amount of travel time. Addionally, roads might very well be patrolled or in use by the governing authority, be targets for undesirables, etc.


There was in fact a line of dialog that mentioned that many of the roads were taken over by bandits.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

JYoung said:


> As to the whole physics going crazy thing, here's my random theories just spitballed out:
> 
> 1. Alien technology causing all of this. Perhaps from Area 51.
> The USB flash drives containers don't look terrestrial.
> ...


Good ideas, but I would counter...

1) The pendants work with a usb flash drive, but are obviously more than a cap and made to look non obvious. Perhaps some kind of underground movement developed them as a precaution? Or they were used in the testing facility where the technology was developed?

2) Nah. For 15 years? More likely a failed experiment on Alien technology or a new technology that was intentionally activated by a bad guy.

3) There would be other elements of supernatural activity if that were the case and we haven't seen that. It's just the first show though...


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Didn't the original trailer for the show, months ago, include a "2012 World Series Champion" sign on the shot of Wrigley Field? Guess its disappearance is what happens when the actual team refuses to play along with your prediction.

Interesting that Monroe was already thinking of his personal brand, even as a Marine grunt, and had come up with his own corporate logo to tattoo on his arm. Perhaps he was already planning to start a consulting firm.

If someone had figured out how to change the fundamental laws of the universe, why not make it so faster-than-light travel is easily possible? Make it so house cats don't wake their owners up at 3:30 in the morning? Make it so women's breasts don't sag?


----------



## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

trainman said:


> If someone had figured out how to change the fundamental laws of the universe, why not make it so faster-than-light travel is easily possible? Make it so house cats don't wake their owners up at 3:30 in the morning? Make it so women's breasts don't sag?


I can help you with one out of three of those. Get dogs instead.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I think Google guy said he was married in that hotel, so he probably knew how to find it. 

So the amulet contains some magical new kind of power that works with the new laws of nature? After you power up the computer, what are you using as your "internet" connection? (as you can see, I'm a moron trying to understand this.)


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

I missed anyone mentioning why was the hotel filled with lighted candles?
Candles are NOT cheap to use in a low tech society.

Tim S.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Ben downloaded something from the internet just before the power went out and he plugged it into that amulet.


I thought he was just downloading from the computer -- not necessarily from the internet.



JYoung said:


> As to the whole physics going crazy thing, here's my random theories just spitballed out:
> 
> 1. Alien technology causing all of this. Perhaps from Area 51.
> The USB flash drives containers don't look terrestrial.
> <snip>





Stormspace said:


> Good ideas, but I would counter...
> 
> 1) The pendants work with a usb flash drive, but are obviously more than a cap and made to look non obvious. Perhaps some kind of underground movement developed them as a precaution? Or they were used in the testing facility where the technology was developed?
> 
> ...





stellie93 said:


> ... So the amulet contains some magical new kind of power that works with the new laws of nature?


Maybe the amulet contains a remnant from an asteroid or meteorite which emits the energy/power, and perhaps the asteroid or meteor caused a global EMP which killed the power everywhere.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

mrdbdigital said:


> A car will not run without electricity, nor will a jet liner fly without electricity. The only exception to the car might be a diesel, but even there modern diesels are controlled by engine computers, just like the fuel is pumped by electric fuel pumps on jet airliners, even the ones that still don't use modern electric run avionics. On a lot of the newer planes, the avionics use electrically powered hydraulic actuators to move the rudder, elevator, etc. Fly by wire, and that requires electricity.
> 
> Dave


Sure, but they don't immediately go into a flat spin and fall for no apparent reason. The forward momentum will cause them to go into a somewhat straightforward (uncontrollable) descent, not a death spiral.

(And at least one plane I know of still uses mechanical pulleys for all control surfaces, with hydraulic boost. Even if all power fails, the pilots can have some control of the glide, through sheer muscle power).


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Ereth said:


> Sure, but they don't immediately go into a flat spin and fall for no apparent reason. The forward momentum will cause them to go into a somewhat straightforward (uncontrollable) descent, not a death spiral.
> 
> (And at least one plane I know of still uses mechanical pulleys for all control surfaces, with hydraulic boost. Even if all power fails, the pilots can have some control of the glide, through sheer muscle power).


I don't know if any of this is likely. I'll let pilots take this theory apart. 

If we conjecture that these people live reasonably near O'Hare, since it didn't seem to take them terribly long to walk there, the planes could have either on a turn for final approach, or possibly a holding pattern (if the tower got some sort of advance hint that something was starting to happen). If the planes were turning when power failed, and these were fully fly-by-wire, the control surfaces might have locked, causing more of a spiraling crash when engines failed.

ETA: I still don't think it would look like they depicted it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

The planes fell the way they did because that's what looked most dramatic on TV. It's nothing more than that. Don't overthink it. If they depicted it realistically, with the plane gliding down, covering several miles horizontally for every 1,000 feet of altitude it lost, then you'd either see the plane glide through the picture and blow up off screen, or you just see the explosion on screen but don't see the plane flying beforehand. The only way to really show the plane in the sky for a couple seconds, and then have the explosion be in the frame and be relatively close to their house is the way they did it. Not the most realistic, but the most dramatic. When making TV shows, drama is much more important than realism.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> I think Google guy said he was married in that hotel, so he probably knew how to find it.
> 
> So the amulet contains some magical new kind of power that works with the new laws of nature? After you power up the computer, what are you using as your "internet" connection? (as you can see, I'm a moron trying to understand this.)


The woman was using a modem to connect her computer to another computer. No internet required. That's how it was done in the old days. 

Now this begs the question of was it a previously scheduled connection or was it spur of the moment after the militia had left with Danny? If it was spur of the moment, why/how was the other computer powered on and able to connect immediately?


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## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

This is an overly simplified description of aircraft stalls and spins, but is enough for general discussion.

Any plane can enter a spin under the right conditions, but airliners aren't tested for spins since the forces caused on them would cause bits of the plane to go missing  A plane enters a spin if there is enough yaw force while stalled (in reference to flight, stall essentially means no lift is being produced by the wing, not necessarily engines out or speed reduced to 0 as is used in reference to cars) Most unintentional stalls occur during takeoff and landing and are easily recovered from.

In the scenario of the show where a airliner lost all control input and engine power, planes on climb out would quickly stall. A spin would only occur if there were yaw forces during the stall. Planes in descent or level flight would fly/glide in uncontrolled descent more or less straight ahead until they crashed. Planes flying just above stall speed (usually during landing) would also stall quickly, but again would only spin if yaw forces were applied during the stall. In any case, without the ability to affect the control surfaces, they're all going to crash. So this discussion is more about artistic license used by the producers than actual aircraft flight characteristics. As a pilot, I just get annoyed by the wild and/or incorrect aircraft behavior depicted in TV/movies.

I would imagine an airliner in a spin would be more of a nose down spiral than the flat spin depicted in the show, but since spins just don't happen in airliners and they aren't even tested for spin behavior as part of their certification process, I suppose the show could be accurate. I just find it highly unlikely.

As an aside, I was wondering why the lights were still working on the planes as they fell when all other lights had failed.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I have a much harder time with the fact that they just happened to walk into the hotel and the uncle just happened to be the bartender 5 minutes after they apparently arrived in Chicago than "physics stopped working".


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

tivoboyjr said:


> Hurley got fatter after being stuck on the island. So maybe Google guy was thin when the power went out.


Or the Google guy could have weight 600 lbs 15 years ago.


----------



## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

Flop said:


> ......
> 
> As an aside, I was wondering why the lights were still working on the planes as they fell when all other lights had failed.


Easy. So they could show them falling wildly in the dark. You know, dramatic license.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

laria said:


> I have a much harder time with the fact that they just happened to walk into the hotel and the uncle just happened to be the bartender 5 minutes after they apparently arrived in Chicago than "physics stopped working".


What's hard to believe about that? They were told where to find him. They went there. He was there. You wanted it to be harder for them to find Miles even though they'd been told exactly where he was?


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

robojerk said:


> Imagine if the soldiers rolled into the town with one of these (and horses), I think it would have been way cooler *more expensive to make this show*.
> 
> Steam Powered Car


FYP.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> But how many people still know how to make glass?


Build a REALLY hot fire, melt sand, let it cool. Yeah, there's more to it than that, but that's enough to experiment with and work out the rest by trial and error. The materials are cheap enough, even in a post-apocalyptic world.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

mattack said:


> You can poke holes in a lot of the other inconsistencies.. Since the kid eating ice cream was made a big deal -- can't you make ice cream without a freezer? At least without an electric freezer? You still have the ideal gas law to make things colder..


In Farmer Boy (one of the Little House on the Prairie books), they make ice cream like this:

Winter: cut a LOT blocks of ice from the lake/pond/river. Spend quite a long time packing the ice blocks tightly with sawdust between and then coating the entire cube structure (the size of a garden shed give or take) with more sawdust and boarding it all up on all size with wood.

Summer: Pry off a chunk of wood, dig out a block of ice, break it up and use it to make ice cream (with salt and some kind of human-powered churning mechanism).

Getting vanilla beans would be the bigger problem.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> There were less "scientific" things I guess that bothered me. One, it seemed to take them like 5 minutes to get from wherever they were living to Chicago, and, while I don't know Chicago too well, I've flown into O'Hare a few times, and I don't remember full forests surrounding it. Also, in 15 years, wouldn't you think those planes would have been stripped bare? Seemed weird the AC/DC guy would be looking for medical stuff in the plane (but I did love how he worked for a company named "Google". The other thing that really bothered me is that they get into Chicago, and the first place they encounter, the Grand Hotel or whatever it was called, just happened to be the place they find the uncle.


All of this plus....WHERE DID ALL THE HOUSES AROUND WRIGLEY FIELD GO?!


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> The sign said "Ohare"


Seriously? Oy vey!

They REALLY should've spent the $500 or so to send a location scout to Chicago to at least *attempt* to document what the major landmarks they'd be using look like.

I seriously thought it was supposed to be the kind of podunk community airport that the Confederate Air Force and others of that ilk fly out of on Sunday afternoons.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

Flop said:


> I can help you with one out of three of those. Get dogs instead.


I don't understand how that helps prevent sagging breasts.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

Okay....all caught up! 

Two things REALLY bugged me. The clothes. I was just ranting earlier today about how shoddy clothing construction/materials are now and they barely last a season. No way anything would last 15 years but there was a serious lack of anything homespun (except for on the one poor, chubby kid in the "class" at the beginning....I bet the other kids at "school" teased him because his parents made him wear their beige Renfaire tunic hand-me-down). But then, I used to point out to Spouse each time that Sun and Jin would pop over to the offscreen Lostaway Island Gap store and show up in fresh khakis and a crisp, new shirt.

More irksome ('cause we all know that costume directors don't actually want to make all the clothes by hand) was the swords. The US has a good stockpile of REALLY crappy "exact-replica-of-the-sword-used-in-Highlander" type swords that MIGHT be capable of opening a letter if you're really dexterous and a SERIOUS shortage of good quality, functional swords. Your chances of getting a working antique sword in Europe wouldn't be half bad, but here in the US, I'd say there's maybe 1 good sword per 1000 people? Maybe? 

I know JUST enough about metalworking to know that while we could probably get some rudimentary tools made starting from nothing and given 15 years, there is simply no way we could get to the skill level of beautiful, balanced, strong steel blades in that time period. Getting and processing the ore alone would be a major challenge and that's not at all taking into account the necessary blacksmithing skills one would need to acquire. And as I said above, there just simply aren't enough antiques in the US to supply any kind of population.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Polcamilla said:


> Getting and processing the ore alone would be a major challenge and that's not at all taking into account the necessary blacksmithing skills one would need to acquire.


I don't think finding steel to recycle would be a problem. Finding someone who knows how to take steel scraps and turn them into a sword would be more difficult, but doable. Same thing for glass -- you wouldn't need to start with sand. Just recycle broken glass.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> What's hard to believe about that? They were told where to find him. They went there. He was there. You wanted it to be harder for them to find Miles even though they'd been told exactly where he was?




Who told them to go to the hotel? I thought that the dad just said he was in Chicago.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Nope the dad gave pretty explicit directions including the name of the hotel, not just "in Chicago".


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

I guess they felt they had to pack a lot of story line into the first hour. I think that is one of the major reasons for a lot of our discussion here. A 2-hour premiere might have been better. Hopefully they find a good pace in the next few episodes.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

madscientist said:


> Nope the dad gave pretty explicit directions including the name of the hotel, not just "in Chicago".


Hrm, ok, I guess I missed that part.  I was too busy trying to figure out if they were really going to kill off the guy from The Good Wife or if he was just going to be badly wounded and couldn't go with her.


----------



## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

Some of my favorite parts:

Watching the woman unlock several locks to get to the computer. Really? As a door with that many locks wouldn't arouse any suspicions.

An arrow makes someone fly backwards after getting hit by it.

Civil war era tents and rifles.

The sequential power outage, one car at a time, one house at a time.


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

donnoh said:


> Some of my favorite parts:
> 
> Watching the woman unlock several locks to get to the computer. Really? As a door with that many locks wouldn't arouse any suspicions.
> 
> ...


But all those things LOOK COOL. That's the only reason for them.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> It's only about 15 miles....half day is very reasonable. I could do that in 3-4 hours easily...


Over rough ground? Without attracting unwanted attention?


LoadStar said:


> There was in fact a line of dialog that mentioned that many of the roads were taken over by bandits.





JYoung said:


> He doesn't have to be 45 though.
> His rank was given as Sergent when they returned to base so if he enlisted at 18, I'm guessing that making Sergent by the time he was 25 isn't totally unreasonable.


My point was that the conversation in the car, not being "hip" to texting, made him sound older. He didn't look 25 in the car.



stellie93 said:


> I think Google guy said he was married in that hotel, so he probably knew how to find it.


Fair point. I thought the Google Guy said it in surprise, like they followed Crossbow Girl all that way without knowing the destination. But GG was probably hovering over Dying Dad, when he told CG where to go.



Flop said:


> As an aside, I was wondering why the lights were still working on the planes as they fell when all other lights had failed.


Ha!

I don't think these types of issues will ruin the show for me. It's OK to laugh at TV dramas.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

john4200 said:


> I don't think finding steel to recycle would be a problem. Finding someone who knows how to take steel scraps and turn them into a sword would be more difficult, but doable. Same thing for glass -- you wouldn't need to start with sand. Just recycle broken glass.


Westeros aside, there's a lot more to making a usable blade than just melting down and recasting some old steel. Your point is excellent on the glass, though.

(Seriously, though, there's a reason humanity had glass for thousands of years before it had steel blades.)


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

tlc said:


> Over rough ground? Without attracting unwanted attention?....


What rough ground? It's Chicago...can't be too rough, even after 15 years of no power (I lived in that area for 22 years). And whose attention are they trying to avoid? All the rapists, pillagers and plunderers? I don't think they had to keep that low a profile. They were walking past lots of people in Chicago before they got to the hotel. They weren't avoiding anyone. Easily done in a half day...


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

robojerk said:


> Imagine if the soldiers rolled into the town with one of these (and horses), I think it would have been way cooler.
> 
> Steam Powered Car





Polcamilla said:


> FYP.


I thnk the prop department could take a golf cart, add light weight moldings to it, then just pipe smoke steam or faux fog out the stack and you're in business.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

robojerk said:


> I thnk the prop department could take a golf cart, add light weight moldings to it, then just pipe smoke steam or faux fog out the stack and you're in business.


They *could* but adding a steampunk aesthetic and consistenly keeping up with it runs the costs up really fast. Do you want me to go draw up a list of shows that got canceled because they were period pieces and the costs quickly spiraled well beyond what a network was willing to pay for so-so ratings?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Polcamilla said:


> They *could* but adding a steampunk aesthetic and consistenly keeping up with it runs the costs up really fast. Do you want me to go draw up a list of shows that got canceled because they were period pieces and the costs quickly spiraled well beyond what a network was willing to pay for so-so ratings?


Yes.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

I don't see the amulets as power sources per se, just as devices that restore normal physics in a local area. The power source would then be something like a conventional small generator.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

wmcbrine said:


> I don't see the amulets as power sources per se, just as devices that restore normal physics in a local area. The power source would then be something like a conventional small generator.


I'm trying not to think too hard about the amulets, because even if the person at either end of the computer has an amulet that can do whatever *hands waving* to allow them to power up their 486 and 3200 baud modem, what is powering the switching equipment along the telephone lines? And if stuff like all the buildings have fallen down in Chicago, are the phone lines really still standing?!


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

laria said:


> I'm trying not to think too hard about the amulets, because even if the person at either end of the computer has an amulet that can do whatever *hands waving* to allow them to power up their 486 and 3200 baud modem, what is powering the switching equipment along the telephone lines? And if stuff like all the buildings have fallen down in Chicago, are the phone lines really still standing?!


They were likely using wireless communication. You can use a modem over shortwave.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

laria said:


> Who told them to go to the hotel? I thought that the dad just said he was in Chicago.


As I posted in post #158:


> Just before Ben died, he told Charlie that "My brother Miles is in Chicago. At the Grand on Walton Place. Miles is there. He can get Danny." So it wasn't random chance that they found him in that particular hotel. They were specifically instructed to go there.


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## deaklet (Feb 15, 2003)

If "physics failed," why weren't they all floating around in zero gravity?

Lo, there is no physics, but there appears to be an H&M nearby for clothes.


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## AlphaDelta (Jan 9, 2007)

DevdogAZ said:


> The planes fell the way they did because that's what looked most dramatic on TV. It's nothing more than that. Don't overthink it. If they depicted it realistically, with the plane gliding down, covering several miles horizontally for every 1,000 feet of altitude it lost, then you'd either see the plane glide through the picture and blow up off screen, or you just see the explosion on screen but don't see the plane flying beforehand. The only way to really show the plane in the sky for a couple seconds, and then have the explosion be in the frame and be relatively close to their house is the way they did it. Not the most realistic, but the most dramatic. When making TV shows, drama is much more important than realism.


Exactly.

In the real world, planes are equipped with Ram Air Turbines (RAT) that generate electrical, mechanical, hydraulic power to move the plane's control surfaces in the event of power loss (think pin-wheel). If close enough to a runway, they can land safely, or make reasonable crash landings otherwise. Landing gear can be lowered mechanically, or in many planes, using gravity alone (apparently not repealed in the show!). The flat spins depicted in the show would be highly unlikely (with their strobe lights still working--HUH?). TV and movies rarely depict flight accurately, mostly because of laziness.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Polcamilla said:


> Westeros aside, there's a lot more to making a usable blade than just melting down and recasting some old steel.


No, there is not. The militia do not all need Hattori Hanzo swords, just something to slice and stab with. It is not that difficult to find someone in the US who can make a usable blade out of recycled steel. There are hobbyist groups that spend a lot of time on that sort of thing.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> More irksome ('cause we all know that costume directors don't actually want to make all the clothes by hand) was the swords. The US has a good stockpile of REALLY crappy "exact-replica-of-the-sword-used-in-Highlander" type swords that MIGHT be capable of opening a letter if you're really dexterous and a SERIOUS shortage of good quality, functional swords. Your chances of getting a working antique sword in Europe wouldn't be half bad, but here in the US, I'd say there's maybe 1 good sword per 1000 people? Maybe?


Counterpoint: I know a guy who collects and professionally sharpens swords. I'm not that social of a guy. Surely I am not alone.

Counter-counterpoint: I know a lot more people who have guns. Multiple guns. And lots of ammo.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

deaklet said:


> If "physics failed," why weren't they all floating around in zero gravity?


I think the claim is that specific laws of physics changed. Not that it makes sense, because the effects of changing even small things would be a lot more wide ranging than what has been shown.

I am afraid that they are eventually going to claim that it was all from an electromagnetic pulse (EMP), maybe from the sun or cosmic rays or something. But there are all sorts of problems and holes with that explanation.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Based on the guide info, it's strictly limited to electricity. So, I wonder if there are no more thunderstorms.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

a big question...
What would happen to a nuclear or other power plant that suddenly lost the ability to regulate the pressure on the boilers?

Second question:
There are at least 4 nuclear power plants approximately with in 100 miles of Chicago. Did those melt down or just suddenly stop working? Last time I checked the heat generated doesn't come from electricity, but electricity likely pumps water through the station.


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Based on the guide info, it's strictly limited to electricity. So, I wonder if there are no more thunderstorms.


It's due to an event that occurred long ago, yet recently as well, and involved alien intruders who actually aren't intruders but inhabited Earth long before humans did. They were also lizards, but had human skin that covered their lizardness and they dressed all future-y. Plus, Elizabeth Mitchell is involved and while she may appear to be on the side of the good guys (and/or dead), she is usually up to no good.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

No more electric magnetic field? We kind of need that to live...


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

tivoboyjr said:


> It's due to an event that occurred long ago, yet recently as well, and involved alien intruders who actually aren't intruders but inhabited Earth long before humans did. They were also lizards, but had human skin that covered their lizardness and they dressed all future-y. Plus, Elizabeth Mitchell is involved and while she may appear to be on the side of the good guys (and/or dead), she is usually up to no good.


This


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## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

AlphaDelta said:


> Exactly.
> TV and movies rarely depict flight accurately, mostly because of laziness.


Off Topic: My favorite is when a plane loses a wing, then immediately rolls to the side with the remaining wing like that side is heavier now and let's just forget about all the lift being generated on only one side of the plane. They can have the exact same effect and have the plane behave closer to reality by having the plane roll to the side that lost the wing.

On topic: There was a lot less use of animals than I would have expected. I didn't notice any dogs that could be used for hunting or protection, draft animals for plowing or milling, etc. There were a few horses used for riding or pulling wagons (and rear halves of cars  ), but I would have expected to see more animals/livestock around a settlement.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Flop said:


> Off Topic: My favorite is when a plane loses a wing, then immediately rolls to the side with the remaining wing like that side is heavier now and let's just forget about all the lift being generated on only one side of the plane. They can have the exact same effect and have the plane behave closer to reality by having the plane roll to the side that lost the wing.
> 
> On topic: There was a lot less use of animals than I would have expected. I didn't notice any dogs that could be used for hunting or protection, draft animals for plowing or milling, etc. There were a few horses used for riding or pulling wagons (and rear halves of cars  ), but I would have expected to see more animals/livestock around a settlement.


Off off topic. How about that F15 that flew with only one wing? Proves that even a brick will fly with enough thrust..


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I am afraid that they are eventually going to claim that it was all from an electromagnetic pulse (EMP), maybe from the sun or cosmic rays or something. But there are all sorts of problems and holes with that explanation.


There was an interview with the creator posted earlier in this thread where he specifically ruled out anything to do with solar flares.

He said they called in a physicist and explained to him how they wanted to explain it, and after thinking about it for awhile, he said their explanation was plausible. So hopefully once it's actually explained, there is some reality to the explanation.

But really, I don't care. I just want the story to be engaging. If the world of this show operates under different rules from our real world, that's fine by me.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> He said they called in a physicist and explained to him how they wanted to explain it, and after thinking about it for awhile, he said their explanation was plausible. So hopefully once it's actually explained, there is some reality to the explanation.


I know he claimed that, but there is no chance that there is a consistent scientific explanation for what has been shown. Maybe he consulted a physicist, and maybe he asked him a question, but no way did a physicist look over the script and say that the science is plausible and consistent.


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> But really, I don't care. I just want the story to be engaging. If the world of this show operates under different rules from our real world, that's fine by me.


Same here. And while I'd love for it to be as compelling as Lost, it isn't and I'll settle for it being good enough that I'll watch without turning it off in disgust.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

tivoboyjr said:


> Same here. And while I'd love for it to be as compelling as Lost, it isn't and I'll settle for it being good enough that I'll watch without turning it off in disgust.


As long as the show focuses on what happened and how to fix it I'll watch since I just need to know how messed up their logic is.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tlc said:


> ...They did know to go to the Grand, but did they have any maps? How did they find it? The city is a big place. Even if their village was a former suburb, that's a long walk in less than 2 days.





That Don Guy said:


> There was a sign that said it was O'Hare.
> 
> They also managed to get from O'Hare to Wrigley Field in, what, about half a day?





Bierboy said:


> It's only about 15 miles....half day is very reasonable. I could do that in 3-4 hours easily...


Yeah, I was thinking more like 20+ miles but that's to downtown.

What bugged me is that Wrigley Feld is in no way the first thing you'd see when you walked into Chicago. It's that 15 miles inland and only about 1 1/2 miles from the lake. It's not on the way from O'Hare to The Loop.

From Wrigley to The Loop is another 5 miles.

That hotel looked like the Intercontinental which is on Michigan Avenue a bit further north.

We just know that these goofs wanted to rustic up a Chicago Landmark and Wrigley Field served the purpose.


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

netringer said:


> We just know that these goofs wanted to rustic up a Chicago Landmark and Wrigley Field served the purpose.


And it made a good contrast with the "Welcome to Opening Night" photo on the postcard Charlie was looking at earlier -- much more "visceral" than, say, the SearsWillis Tower.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

trainman said:


> Didn't the original trailer for the show, months ago, include a "2012 World Series Champion" sign on the shot of Wrigley Field? Guess its disappearance is what happens when the actual team refuses to play along with your prediction.
> ...


I said the power would go out as the Cubs were 2 outs away from beating the Red Sox at home in the bottom of the 4th in game 7, but then the sign said they won.

It's a fact that a Cubs World Series win would be the end of the world.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Sure, but they don't immediately go into a flat spin and fall for no apparent reason. The forward momentum will cause them to go into a somewhat straightforward (uncontrollable) descent, not a death spiral.
> 
> (And at least one plane I know of still uses mechanical pulleys for all control surfaces, with hydraulic boost. Even if all power fails, the pilots can have some control of the glide, through sheer muscle power).


Most of the older jets use hydraulic links for the controls which don't stop working on a power loss any more than the power brakes son your car would. They have pumps to help move the surfaces but they can be muscled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> a big question...
> What would happen to a nuclear or other power plant that suddenly lost the ability to regulate the pressure on the boilers?
> 
> Second question:
> There are at least 4 nuclear power plants approximately with in 100 miles of Chicago. Did those melt down or just suddenly stop working? Last time I checked the heat generated doesn't come from electricity, but electricity likely pumps water through the station.


URK. Remember that what was behind the Fukiyama disaster in Japan was the backup generators being below sea level so they couldn't power the cooling water pumps.

Bye, bye, Joliet, Braidwood...Rockford.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

robojerk said:


> Yes.


Well, I'm lazy, so I'll only mention the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Covington Cross
Pan Am

There are, obviously, others. I'm still bitter about Covington Cross, though, even though it had plot holes you could drive a team of draft horses pulling a millstone through.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

laria said:


> I'm trying not to think too hard about the amulets, because even if the person at either end of the computer has an amulet that can do whatever *hands waving* to allow them to power up their 486 and 3200 baud modem, what is powering the switching equipment along the telephone lines? And if stuff like all the buildings have fallen down in Chicago, are the phone lines really still standing?!


I see ads for Hughes satellite internet service all the time. It's invisible and waaaaaaaaaaay up there where nobody will notice it.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

john4200 said:


> No, there is not. The militia do not all need Hattori Hanzo swords, just something to slice and stab with. It is not that difficult to find someone in the US who can make a usable blade out of recycled steel. There are hobbyist groups that spend a lot of time on that sort of thing.


....with NON-motorized tools?

ALL the woodworkers I know use electrical-powered woodworking tools. I've chatted with a few about the logistics of a human-powered lathe. They are either prohibitively large (and require someone to basically be a giant hamster-wheel-hamster) or literally deadly if so much as a loose bit of fabric gets caught in the mechanism.

I know a couple blacksmiths, too. They produce trivets and nails and similar simple items. Though I know SOMEONE out there does it, I have personally never seen someone craft a blade with pre-Industrial tools.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

Flop said:


> On topic: There was a lot less use of animals than I would have expected. I didn't notice any dogs that could be used for hunting or protection, draft animals for plowing or milling, etc. There were a few horses used for riding or pulling wagons (and rear halves of cars  ), but I would have expected to see more animals/livestock around a settlement.


Thank PETA for that one. The rules regarding animals in filming are cumbersome at this point.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

trainman said:


> And it made a good contrast with the "Welcome to Opening Night" photo on the postcard Charlie was looking at earlier -- much more "visceral" than, say, the SearsWillis*Sears* Tower.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Polcamilla said:


> ALL the woodworkers I know use electrical-powered woodworking tools. I've chatted with a few about the logistics of a human-powered lathe. They are either prohibitively large (and require someone to basically be a giant hamster-wheel-hamster) or literally deadly if so much as a loose bit of fabric gets caught in the mechanism.


A wooden sword? Made with a lathe? WTF are you talking about?

I am talking about a steel sword. And you certainly don't make it with a lathe.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

john4200 said:


> A wooden sword? Made with a lathe? WTF are you talking about?
> 
> I am talking about a steel sword. And you certainly don't make it with a lathe.


I'm not talking about wooden swords. I'm saying that if woodworkers primarily use electrically powered tools that it's a very good bet that metalworkers aren't getting the job done with just a giant fire, an anvil, and a really big hammer.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

john4200 said:


> A wooden sword? Made with a lathe? WTF are you talking about?
> 
> I am talking about a steel sword. And you certainly don't make it with a lathe.


Indeed....here you go.

Actually, you might want to go ahead and print out all the pages in this link and laminate them for future, post-apocalyptic reference.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> I'm not talking about wooden swords. I'm saying that if woodworkers primarily use electrically powered tools that it's a very good bet that metalworkers aren't getting the job done with just a giant fire, an anvil, and a really big hammer.


The difference is that with woodworking, the techniques remain pretty much the same, regardless of whether you're using powered or manual tools (cut, drill, sand, chisel, etc.). With metalworking, I think most of what happens today is milling and grinding, which you wouldn't do at all in a manual world.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> With metalworking, I think most of what happens today is milling and grinding, which you wouldn't do at all in a manual world.


Let's go back to my original point.

There are not a lot of people currently hand-crafting blades from scratch without using electric-powered tools.

The learning curve to go from a hunk of metal to a functional sword (and by functional, I mean, usuable as a sword, not a heavy shaped chunk of metal that makes a decent club) using pre-Industrial methods is very steep relative to other handcrafts.

Since Americans don't tend to stockpile swords AND they're crazy-hard to make without having already developed the skill, I think that swords would be in really short supply in the post-apocalyptic Midwest.

That's all.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

...but when you people are ready to go back to the clothing manufacture rants, let me know. I can go from a cotton seed to a finished pair of socks single-handedly and I have a lot of pent-up frustration from watching Rumpelstiltskin in Once Upon a Time.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Polcamilla said:


> Let's go back to my original point.
> 
> There are not a lot of people currently hand-crafting blades from scratch without using electric-powered tools.
> 
> ...


The problem is that your point is wrong. As I already said, there are plenty of hobbyist and amateur blacksmiths in the US who can make swords (and even professional blacksmiths, but they are not so numerous). There are lots of books on the subject, for all skill levels. The basic tools do not require electricity. You need a forge, an anvil, hammer, tongs, files and grinding tools. Welding equipment is also useful (but not required). Sure, a grinder is easier if you have electricity, but there are manual grinders, water-powered grinders, you could even rig up a steam-powered one if you were setting up a large blade grinding shop for a militia.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

john4200 said:


> As I already said, there are plenty of hobbyist and amateur blacksmiths in the US who can make swords (and even professional blacksmiths, but they are not so numerous). There are lots of books on the subject, for all skill levels. The basic tools do not require electricity. You need a forge, an anvil, hammer, tongs, files and grinding tools.


Yeah, I see people making swords and stuff anytime I go to a ren faire... I'm sure that it would not be a problem for people who really had to make swords without power to make them.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

john4200 said:


> The problem is that your point is wrong. As I already said, there are plenty of hobbyist and amateur blacksmiths in the US who can make swords (and even professional blacksmiths, but they are not so numerous). There are lots of books on the subject, for all skill levels. The basic tools do not require electricity. You need a forge, an anvil, hammer, tongs, files and grinding tools. Welding equipment is also useful (but not required). Sure, a grinder is easier if you have electricity, but there are manual grinders, water-powered grinders, you could even rig up a steam-powered one if you were setting up a large blade grinding shop for a militia.


The information is plentiful NOW, but obviously not in a post-internet Apocalypse. And there are a decent number of hobbyist blacksmiths, but really, NOT a lot of hobbyist swordsmiths. This is a world where DOCTORS are in short supply, but there are bands of roving pre-Industrial blacksmiths?

Sure, there are gonna be SOME and a major power is going to control the weapon-producing resources. But every third person having a sword (and not a gun) is wildly improbable.

Here is another pretty good article on how to make a basic, functional sword. It even gives a very readily available source for your steel. Feel free to print it out, use it to make a sword, use that sword to defend your life, and then come back and report on how well that went for you.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

laria said:


> Yeah, I see people making swords and stuff anytime I go to a ren faire... I'm sure that it would not be a problem for people who really had to make swords without power to make them.


Really? What faires?

I ask because at ours, we have ONE working forge (that produces horseshoes, nails, and the like) and a guy who does glass blowing and trained in Venice. We have leathercrafts and needle felting and spinning and weaving and paper making and period cooking and baking and illumination and drafting and a small amount of woodworking and a jewlery smith who makes pins, brooches, and small coins (this guy gave my 8 yr. old a hacksaw and a chunk of brass for an afternoon but won't let her touch the hand-powered drill because of the risk of injury). We have two booths that SELL swords and daggers, but we have absolutely no one onsite that makes them. Of the two sellers, one makes unfunctional decorative crap and the other has a 3-6 month turnaround time for a dagger.

I've only been to a handful of Renaissance Faires but a handful more historical sites doing recreation. I've seen muskets loaded and fired and I've seen blacksmiths doing decorative wrought iron. I have never, ever, ever seen anyone making a sword.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Polcamilla said:


> The information is plentiful NOW, but obviously not in a post-internet Apocalypse. And there are a decent number of hobbyist blacksmiths, but really, NOT a lot of hobbyist swordsmiths. This is a world where DOCTORS are in short supply, but there are bands of roving pre-Industrial blacksmiths?


Wrong again. As I said, there are plenty of books on the subject. But even that does not matter. As I have said twice already, there are plenty of hobbyist and amateur blacksmiths who know how to make swords. It does not matter if they are master swordsmiths, they only need to make a sword that works for slicing and stabbing, not a work of art. And you don't need a lot of experts. One or two are fine to start. They can teach others.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Polcamilla said:


> I have never, ever, ever seen anyone making a sword.


Too bad. I have.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Wrong again. As I said, there are plenty of books on the subject. But even that does not matter. As I have said twice already, there are plenty of hobbyist and amateur blacksmiths who know how to make swords. It does not matter if they are master swordsmiths, they only need to make a sword that works for slicing and stabbing, not a work of art. And you don't need a lot of experts. One or two are fine to start. They can teach others.


When it's a potential deadly trip from the suburbs of Chicago to downtown?

Also, you keep saying "there are plenty". Okay. Who? Where? Show me. How many people are we talking about? What's the average per-capita swordsmith distribution in the US? Heck, what's the per-capita BLACKSMITH distribution?

Personally, I know more aerospace machinists than blacksmiths.

If I were the only person in 100 miles who could make swords and consequently, I'm armed and nobody else is, I'm gonna hole myself up and hack the limbs off anyone who comes and threatens me with a weapon less sophisticated than my own. I wouldn't be going from town to town sharing the magic of smithing for the pure joy of arming the masses.

I'm not talking about a work of art, either. I'm talking about something that doesn't snap in half in your face when you hit it against a tree trunk.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Polcamilla said:


> Really? What faires?


I have seen these guys doing forging at King Richard's Faire in MA. They give demonstrations and they also sell weapons there. There are a few other weapons vendors there as well. IIRC, King Richard's Faire requires all the vendors to sell handmade goods there.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Too bad. I have.


Oh, well thank you. That's a very constructive, interesting, and useful contribution to this discussion.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

laria said:


> I have seen these guys doing forging at King Richard's Faire in MA. They give demonstrations and they also sell weapons there. There are a few other weapons vendors there as well. IIRC, King Richard's Faire requires all the vendors to sell handmade goods there.


Okay, that's awesome!

And I really wish more "historical" events had that same rule. One of the reasons I like going to these is because there are opportunities to get a quality of goods that just cannot be found in shopping malls. By the 10th booth selling glittery nylon fairy wings, I've pretty much lost my faith in humanity.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Polcamilla said:


> If I were the only person in 100 miles who could make swords and consequently, I'm armed and nobody else is, I'm gonna hole myself up and hack the limbs off anyone who comes and threatens me with a weapon less sophisticated than my own. I wouldn't be going from town to town sharing the magic of smithing for the pure joy of arming the masses.


Well, we've already established that you have no clue how to make swords (a lathe? really??), so what you would do is hardly enlightening.

You do realize that it was mostly the militia that was well-armed, don't you? Were we not watching the same show?

It is certainly plausible that the militia found some people who know how to make swords. And there would certainly be other people around who could make swords and sell them for food or whatever. And there would be a fair number of blades made more than 15 years ago that people would be able to lay hands on. Although I find it hard to believe that swords would be so popular anyway. I would think guns would be the weapon of choice, with crossbows a distant second, and swords way down the list.


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

I wish the explained everything so it would be a one hour made for TV movie. Not.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

If we watched on NBC, is this the right thread?

I think this show will piss me off. We'll never find out exactly what happened. They will never get around to telling us.

It would have been funny if "Gus" told the lady he used to own a chain of chicken restaurants.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Polcamilla said:


> Two things REALLY bugged me. The clothes. I was just ranting earlier today about how shoddy clothing construction/materials are now and they barely last a season. No way anything would last 15 years but there was a serious lack of anything homespun


Aren't tons of people dead?

If so, go into the houses that remain when your clothes wear out and get more clothes.. (and/or stores)


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Polcamilla said:


> One of the reasons I like going to these is because there are opportunities to get a quality of goods that just cannot be found in shopping malls.


Me too... I have an awesome Cross of the Goddess ring from Puzzle Rings by Pepi that I got there in 2000. It looks like this only in 14K gold:







.
I imagine it would cost me a lot more than $99 these days! 

Actually, I bet big ren faire vendors would probably be able to do pretty well for themselves in a post apocalyptic no-electricity world! 

I am not going to argue that there are a TON of people who know how to do blacksmithing, obviously it's not something that someone in every neighborhood does.  But I think that in 15 years, people could probably figure things out... it's not like they have a ton of other stuff to do.  I think it's unlikely that they'd end up with swords as fancy as the Bad Guys had, but maybe those were looted from a museum or something.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

&#8230;and who paused and slow-moed through the computer screens at the end? Come on, you know you did.

Again, it was vaguely realistic techno mumbo jumbo, but they mixed in a lot of other stuff in the ATDT stuff.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Well, we've already established that you have no clue how to make swords (a lathe? really??), so what you would do is hardly enlightening.


You weren't reading what I wrote at all. I was talking about a lathe as one of the basic tools of pre-industrial production that, when not electrically powered, is a large, cumbersome, and dangerous piece of equipment.

I was in no way saying that you use a lathe to make a sword....only that modern woodworkers use electric tools and my understanding is that modern metalworkers do as well. In the case of metalwork, the electric tools mostly do the heavy lifting in the grinding, , shaping, honing, and finishing, so cut production time from weeks/months to days.

But whatever material you are working with, when you rely on an electric tool to work it and the electricity stops, the first thing you have to figure out is how to do that same job without the electric tool. That's a steep learning curve. Heck.....can you figure out how to iron your clothes without a plug-in iron*?

* note to others: I am in no way suggestion that one uses an iron to make swords. And if it WERE the Apocalypse, I would totally blow off the iron and be seen in rumpled clothing in public.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

laria said:


> Actually, I bet big ren faire vendors would probably be able to do pretty well for themselves in a post apocalyptic no-electricity world!


...just as long as they didn't have to build their storefronts without Makitas.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Polcamilla said:


> ...just as long as they didn't have to build their storefronts without Makitas.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

netringer said:


> ...What bugged me is that Wrigley Feld is in no way the first thing you'd see when you walked into Chicago. It's that 15 miles inland and only about 1 1/2 miles from the lake. It's not on the way from O'Hare to The Loop.
> 
> From Wrigley to The Loop is another 5 miles.
> 
> ...


Soldier field would have been MUCH more plausible...it's right on the way to downtown if you're coming from the south/southeast...


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

netringer said:


> I said the power would go out as the Cubs were 2 outs away from beating the Red Sox at home in the bottom of the 4th in game 7, but then the sign said they won.


That would be a neat trick! Unless maybe they knew the apocalypse would come and were trying to avoid it by shortening the game?


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## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2002)

Polcamilla said:


> Thank PETA for that one. The rules regarding animals in filming are cumbersome at this point.


Actually, it's the American Humane Associations Film & TV Unit

and the guidelines are publicly available if you're interested.

http://www.americanhumanefilmtv.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Guidelines2011WEB1.pdf


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Charlie looks to me like a younger, hotter, version of Hilary Swank. And so I will ignore the contrived story.

The son starting the whole shooting war was the most idiotic thing I've seen in a while. If he were my son, I would have shot him myself.


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

Anubys said:


> The son starting the whole shooting war was the most idiotic thing I've seen in a while. If he were my son, I would have shot him myself.


:up: I agree wholeheartedly.

On the sword thing... I saw a documentary on PBS a few years ago on a Japanese master sword maker that was making a Samurai sword the old-fashioned way. He used nothing but hand tools and a hand-built forge to go from iron ore to sword. The sword he produced will fetch a selling price as big as some houses though.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> Off off topic. How about that F15 that flew with only one wing? Proves that even a brick will fly with enough thrust..


The F-4 proved that a long time ago.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Isn't a sword part of a Marines dress uniform? Wouldn't a PX have a few of those laying around, and isn't the militia located on a military base? 

Just saying.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Isn't a sword part of a Marines dress uniform? Wouldn't a PX have a few of those laying around, and isn't the militia located on a military base?
> 
> Just saying.


I don't know, the militia seemed to be located in an empty field


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

zordude said:


> I don't know, the militia seemed to be located in an empty field


Maybe that was where they were shown, but for a military dictator to have control of a region I'd bet at least one or two military bases would be included in his area of influence.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> Isn't a sword part of a Marines dress uniform? Wouldn't a PX have a few of those laying around, and isn't the militia located on a military base?
> 
> Just saying.


Only Officers get swords.. And I would think the amount of use and practice Marines get with the sword is minimal to none.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

robojerk said:


> And I would think the amount of use and practice Marines get with the sword is minimal to none.


Still... 15 years.

I can learn a lot of things in 15 years.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

I was gonna say something, but decided not to.


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## rorrim (Jun 21, 2005)

Ceremonial military swords are pointy but not sharp. I can definitely say that the sword in my closet was never designed to hold an edge. I would use it after the apocalypse but it would be a thrusting weapon, not a slicing one.

Also, my only training was how to strap it on to my belt.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I was hoping this thread would be more about swords.


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I was hoping this thread would be more about swords.


OK then ...

Crafting a Samurai Sword


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

"Sean Connery" - "I'll take SWORDS for $1000, Alex"

"Alex Trebec" - "That's S WORDS"


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

robojerk said:


> Only Officers get swords.. And I would think the amount of use and practice Marines get with the sword is minimal to none.


After the smack down that is the apocalypse I doubt there would be too many people that would enforce that regulation.

As another said, they are decorative and not designed to "HOLD" an edge, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be used and an edge maintained on it. What else is there to do at night before going to bed?


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

They could just buy their swords from www.swords.com ... Oh wait.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I am hoping we make it to the ren faire this year so I can buy a sword, just in case the electricty apocalypse hits.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

laria said:


> I am hoping we make it to the ren faire this year so I can buy a sword, just in case the electricty apocalypse hits.


It would also come in handy once the zombie apocalypse hits, so it's like getting a 2-for-1.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

laria said:


> I am hoping we make it to the ren faire this year so I can buy a sword, just in case the electricty apocalypse hits.


I was just thinking I might go down to Carver this weekend


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

I've got a machete, hopefully that's good enough for when I run out of ammo.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I have a wooden sword. Think it was made on a lathe?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Just out of curiosity, how useful is a good blade on a sword anyway? From all the movies we see, the swords are just clanged with other swords and occasionally into posts and columns, and then more often than not, the pointy end is shoved through someone/something. I'm guessing that in the powerfree apocalypse, any random hunk of steel with a pointy end would suffice for nearly all uses of a real sword. Sure, a real sword would be better, but it's not like you couldn't protect yourself with a nice piece of rebar that's been sharpened on the end.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Just out of curiosity, how useful is a good blade on a sword anyway? From all the movies we see, the swords are just clanged with other swords and occasionally into posts and columns, and then more often than not, the pointy end is shoved through someone/something. I'm guessing that in the powerfree apocalypse, any random hunk of steel with a pointy end would suffice for nearly all uses of a real sword. Sure, a real sword would be better, but it's not like you couldn't protect yourself with a nice piece of rebar that's been sharpened on the end.


In the absence of armor, I concur.


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

This is definitely a show where I will enjoy the show and skip the threads all together!


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

netringer said:


> I said the power would go out as the Cubs were 2 outs away from beating the Red Sox at home in the bottom of the 4th in game 7, but then the sign said they won.
> 
> It's a fact that a Cubs World Series win would be the end of the world.


Prior to 2004 the apocalypse would have occurred during game 7 of a Red Sox/Cubs World Series right after the home team had tied the game in the bottom of the 9th. Post 2004, I'm not so sure.


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

netringer said:


> I said the power would go out as the Cubs were 2 outs away from beating the Red Sox at home in the bottom of the 4th in game 7, but then the sign said they won.
> 
> It's a fact that a Cubs World Series win would be the end of the world.


Then what happened in 1908? 

I've read a description of a short story (pre-2004) -- but not the story itself, and I can't remember the title or author, or maybe it never actually existed. It's much as you said, the Cubs and the Red Sox in Game 7 of the World Series at Wrigley Field, tied in the bottom of the 9th. A Cubs batter hits a fly ball, and everyone watches its arc as it looks like it's going to leave the park...

...and that's when the nuclear bombs go off.



Bierboy said:


> Soldier field would have been MUCH more plausible...it's right on the way to downtown if you're coming from the south/southeast...


Except they were apparently coming from the northwest, given that they spent the night on the airfield at O'Hare.

Maybe they should have instead found the ruins of the Kennedy Expressway Magikist lips.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Just out of curiosity, how useful is a good blade on a sword anyway? From all the movies we see, the swords are just clanged with other swords and occasionally into posts and columns, and then more often than not, the pointy end is shoved through someone/something. I'm guessing that in the powerfree apocalypse, any random hunk of steel with a pointy end would suffice for nearly all uses of a real sword. Sure, a real sword would be better, but it's not like you couldn't protect yourself with a nice piece of rebar that's been sharpened on the end.


That's what I was thinking. It's not like your opponent is likely to have a Hatora Hanzi sword. It's basically one sharp metal stick against another.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

Waldorf said:


> Actually, it's the American Humane Associations Film & TV Unit
> 
> and the guidelines are publicly available if you're interested.
> 
> http://www.americanhumanefilmtv.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Guidelines2011WEB1.pdf


I'm not against having guidelines (and apparently, some pretty horrific things were done with animals in cinema in the 50's). I know the AHA oversees things, but I think it is other special interest groups who have pushed and continue to push against any perceived harm to animals.

I am thinking of that recent HBO show about horse racing that ended up getting cancelled because of bad publicity after three horse deaths. Two of the deaths weren't related to the filming at all, just happened to occur at the racetrack where they also filmed.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> Isn't a sword part of a Marines dress uniform? Wouldn't a PX have a few of those laying around, and isn't the militia located on a military base?
> 
> Just saying.


This I have no problem with.

I think that what really pushed it over the top for me was the fight at the hotel where every room they went into seemed to be lined with swords and elaborate spears. Even IF the guy they were looking for was good with swords and even IF he'd been stockpiling weapons----he didn't know the blackout was coming so how would he be able to collect all those weapons in a place where good swords are in relatively short supply?

I have no problem with random military dudes having swords---but I got the very strong implication that the military preferred guns and the ordinary folk had to make do with bows and swords because having a gun would get them into a whole heap o'trouble.


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

laria said:


> I am hoping we make it to the ren faire this year so I can buy a sword, just in case the electricty apocalypse hits.


I've got my defense plan. I'm going to retrofit my spinning wheel to double as a crossbow!


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

allan said:


> That's what I was thinking. It's not like your opponent is likely to have a Hatora Hanzi sword. It's basically one sharp metal stick against another.


Really, what we need to see in this show is more people armed with nasty cudgels.

Pitchforks, too. Heck---all your stock mob armaments!


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Polcamilla said:


> Really, what we need to see in this show is more people armed with nasty cudgels.
> 
> Pitchforks, too. Heck---all your stock mob armaments!


A lot of medieval pole arms were derived from farm implements.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Polcamilla said:


> I'm not against having guidelines (and apparently, some pretty horrific things were done with animals in cinema in the 50's). I know the AHA oversees things, but I think it is other special interest groups who have pushed and continue to push against any perceived harm to animals.
> 
> I am thinking of that recent HBO show about horse racing that ended up getting cancelled because of bad publicity after three horse deaths. Two of the deaths weren't related to the filming at all, just happened to occur at the racetrack where they also filmed.


The series was called "Luck" (which it had very little of). I lament its passing (and occasionally rewatch episodes or pieces of episodes I have stored on the Tivo). However, all the horse death were related to the filming in that they were horses that were being used, one of them was after the horse was done filming and being led back to the stable, something spooked him and he reared up and hit his head, the other 2 were while the horses were being filmed on the track, so they the show was more directly related to their death. The other one is like blaming the production company of the actor has an accident driving home from the set.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

robojerk said:


> Only Officers get swords..


So the enlisted men get the crappy wooden swords?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

JLucPicard said:


> This is definitely a show where I will enjoy the show and skip the threads all together!


So far I think I've enjoyed the thread more than the show. I hope that changes soon...


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## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> So far I think I've enjoyed the thread more than the show. I hope that changes soon...


But it's a double-edged sword.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jay_man2 said:


> But it's a double-edged sword.


Is a double-edged sword harder to make without modern technology than a single-edged one?


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Is a double-edged sword harder to make without modern technology than a single-edged one?


Pretty sure a single-edged sword is called a knife.


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Is a double-edged sword harder to make without modern technology than a single-edged one?


Yes, twice as hard.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> ... What else is there to do at night before going to bed?


How about some thrusting? 



JLucPicard said:


> This is definitely a show where I will enjoy the show and skip the threads all together!


Ditto. That was what I had to do for "The River". I enjoyed that series much more than forum members, so I stayed out after the threads devolved and stayed there.

This show, I had my hopes set too high, so I need to adjust my expectations in order to really get into it, but I'm gonna take a stab at it. (D'Oh! Sword pun unintended!)


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Any show that has some big, mysterious, society crushing phenomenon just begs to be picked apart IMO.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> Pretty sure a single-edged sword is called a knife.


I don't know about that.....


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

zordude said:


> I don't know about that.....


See also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre


> The sabre or saber (see spelling differences) is a kind of backsword that usually has a curved, *single-edged blade* and a rather large hand guard, covering the knuckles of the hand as well as the thumb and forefinger.


Tim S.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

An estoc is a type of sword with no sharp edges.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

They need bat'leth's


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

netringer said:


> Prediction: It gonna turn out that Giancarlo's Captain is not such a bad guy. So far he hasn't directly killed anybody and he ordered the end to the shootout.


_*cough*_



Giancarlo Esposito said:


> "I think people are going to be confused as to whether he's a good or bad guy," Esposito said of Neville. "Right in the beginning, you know or are led to believe that he's absolutely a bad guy, but then you're going to see him have compassion, and you're going to be maybe a little confused. He has a heart."
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...o-emmy_n_1839759.html?utm_hp_ref=maureen-ryan


Next prediction: 4 episodes and out.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> They need bat'leth's


Our local Ren Faire sells wooden bat'leths in a booth along with the wooden swords. Nothing like seeing school children arrive for a fun day of learning all about Queen Elizabeth and the time of Shakespeare and leave with a wooden bat'leth.


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

Polcamilla said:


> Our local Ren Faire sells wooden bat'leths in a booth along with the wooden swords. Nothing like seeing school children arrive for a fun day of learning all about Queen Elizabeth and the time of Shakespeare and leave with a wooden bat'leth.


I think I can almost hear the voices of two kids saying "today is a good day to die" and wood banging together.

Tim S.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I finally rewatched the pilot on the big screen.

The biggest new laff is when Miles is surrounded by by a circle of 3 guys with swords, he spins around as they close in and the Asian guy closest gets the arrow from behind, beat, glance, beat, POV Miles sees Charlie with the crossbow, beat, beat, nod, glance, back to Miles in front of the other two guys who are just standing there with swords raised waiting for Miles to start fighting again. 

The preview looks equally lame. Methinks I'll drop the SP Monday.

Series cancelled by episode 6.

The worst is you can smell the calculations of the suits, "It'll be Lost and Jericho and we can cash in on The Hunger Games and sword play like Game of Thrones and ya know those kids love those fighting video games." Note that the pilot was sponsored by a bunch of combat video games.

"And get a pretty boy heartthrob kid with a muscular chest for the Teen Beat girls. And show more of her bare middrift."


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

netringer said:


> The worst is you can smell the calculations of the suits, "It'll ber Losty and Jericho and we can cash in on The Hunger Games and Sword play like Game of Thrones and ya know those kids love those fighting video games." Note that the pilot was sponsored by a bunch of combat video games.
> 
> "And get a pretty boy heartthrob kid with a muscular chest for the Teen Beat girls. And show more of her bare middrift."


I think you're right, but did anyone in Hollywood ever consider Jericho to be a hit?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> I finally rewatched the pilot on the big screen.
> 
> The biggest new laff is when Miles is surrounded by by a circle of 3 guys with swords, he spins around as they close in and the Asian guy closest gets the arrow from behind, beat, glance, beat, POV Miles sees Charlie with the crossbow, beat, beat, nod, glance, back to Miles in front of the other two guys who are just standing there with swords raised waiting for Miles to start fighting again.
> 
> ...


Actually, I thought the 2 young guys (her brother and the militia guy) looked a lot like the werewolf from that teen vampire movie (new moon or eclipse or some other stupid thing?). The idiotic movie where vampires sparkle in the sun 

OTOH, showing more of her bare midriff is a very good thing and will keep me watching


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

You wanna see the ACTUAL super-sekrit conspiracy connect program, complete with the phone number of the guy on the other end?


```
#!/usr/bin/ksh
# $Id: cserve,v 1.1 22:30:47 sms Exp $
# Shell script to connect to 8397/37 by PPP

Connect ()
{
echo Connecting...
ncmap 0 mtu 296 noipdefault
defaultroute
echo Connect chat
''AT OK-AT-OK ATZ OK-AT-OK
'ATS0=0 Q0 V1 &C1&DZ&Z0&M4&R2&H1&I0' OK-AT-OK
ATDT08450801000 CONNECT
```
You just need to dial 08450801000 to get the key to the blackout.

I understand this thing and even as writ it doesn't make much sense, besides which her computer had to running *nix.

And that was before I read this guy's commentary:
http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3383876&postcount=51

Googling the header found the source:
http://www.pccl.demon.co.uk/unix/chat/cserve
I figured it was part of a script to connect to Compuserve.


```
#!/usr/bin/ksh 
# $Id: cserve,v 1.1 2005/11/11 22:30:47 sms Exp $
# Shell script to connect to Compuserve by PPP

Connect ()
{
	echo Connecting to Compuserve ...
	/usr/sbin/pppd connect "/usr/sbin/chat -f /etc/ppp/cis.chat" /dev/cua0 19200 -detach crtscts modem asyncmap 0 mtu 296 noipdefault defaultroute 
	echo Compuserve Disconnected, errno=$?
}

	Connect &
```


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

netringer said:


> The worst is you can smell the calculations of the suits, "It'll ber Losty and Jericho and we can cash in on The Hunger Games and Sword play like Game of Thrones and ya know those kids love those fighting video games." Note that the pilot was sponsored by a bunch of combat video games.
> 
> "And get a pretty boy heartthrob kid with a muscular chest for the Teen Beat girls. And show more of her bare middrift."


I think you're right, but did anyone in Hollywood ever consider Jericho to be a hit?


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

netringer said:


> Googling the header found the source:
> http://www.pccl.demon.co.uk/unix/chat/cserve
> I figured it was part of a script to connect to Compuserve.
> 
> ...


Wait.....the whole Internet dies except COMPUSERVE?!



I didn't realize this was a horror series.


----------



## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Actually, I thought the 2 young guys (her brother and the militia guy) looked a lot like the werewolf from that teen vampire movie (new moon or eclipse or some other stupid thing?). The idiotic movie where vampires sparkle in the sun


The hot young Romeo militia guy IS actually going to be a werewolf in the last movie that is coming out soon.  He wasn't in any of the previous ones, though.

The uncle was/is also in those movies... he plays Bella's dad in all 5 of them.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

laria said:


> The uncle was/is also in those movies... he plays Bella's dad in all 5 of them.




But the uncle looks so hot and buff and Bella's dad look so.....run down!


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

netringer said:


> I finally rewatched the pilot on the big screen.
> 
> The biggest new laff is when Miles is surrounded by by a circle of 3 guys with swords, he spins around as they close in and the Asian guy closest gets the arrow from behind, beat, glance, beat, POV Miles sees Charlie with the crossbow, beat, beat, nod, glance, back to Miles in front of the other two guys who are just standing there with swords raised waiting for Miles to start fighting again.
> 
> ...


Series cancelled by episode 6?? For that to happen it's ratings will need to drop like a rock. The Premiere of Revolution gave NBC it's best ratings for a drama premiere in five years. And it was top top drama premiere on any network in three years. And it was also the highest rated 10PM premiere on any network in five years. The Premiere got extremely good ratings.


----------



## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Polcamilla said:


> But the uncle looks so hot and buff and Bella's dad look so.....run down!


I dunno, I have never seen the movies, but looking at some Google images, maybe it's the 70's pornstache that makes him not-hot.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> Series cancelled by episode 6?? For that to happen it's ratings will need to drop like a rock. The Premiere of Revolution gave NBC it's best ratings for a drama premiere in five years. And it was top top drama premiere on any network in three years. And it was also the highest rated 10PM premiere on any network in five years. The Premiere got extremely good ratings.


Yes, but (to steal DevdogAZ's link)...

From TVbythenumbers:


> The highly anticipated premiere of Revolution garnered a huge 4.1 18-49 rating, making it the highest rated drama debut in three years (since ABC's *V*, 5.2) and the highest rated NBC drama debut in 5 years (*Bionic Woman*, 5.7).


So we are not yet at the point where the ratings have anything to do with long-term viability. The show had an awful lot of publicity. It will be interested to see how many people stick with it, and how many feel like they were suckered into it in the first place.


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I see the teenage boy is taking the same stupid pills as the kid from Terra Nova. Hope it does not continue.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

eddyj said:


> I see the teenage boy is taking the same stupid pills as the kid from Terra Nova. Hope it does not continue.


I said the same thing to a friend. Ugh. In spite of the stupid kid stuff, I really started to enjoy Terra Nova and was sorry to see it go. I hope this show gets better, too...and if it does, I hope it doesn't get cancelled.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yes, but (to steal DevdogAZ's link)...
> 
> From TVbythenumbers:
> So we are not yet at the point where the ratings have anything to do with long-term viability. The show had an awful lot of publicity. It will be interested to see how many people stick with it, and how many feel like they were suckered into it in the first place.


Maybe not long term, but both V and Bionic Woman made it past six episodes.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> Maybe not long term, but both V and Bionic Woman made it past six episodes.


Bionic Woman shouldn't have gotten past the pilot, but it too had a ton of money poured into marketing.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I predict a long successful run for Revolution, my criteria is simple:
JJ Abrams shows I watch get cancelled quickly: Undercovers, Alcatraz
JJ Abrams shows don't I watch have decent runs: Felicity, Alias, Lost, Fringe,Person of Interest. 
You can try to convince me it is worth watching, but that would be its death knell.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> So far I think I've enjoyed the thread more than the show. I hope that changes soon...


Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Even though I thought the show was pretty lame, I'm kind of excited to watch it tonight so that I can see if it gets better, worse, or stays the same; then come here and see everyone's opinions.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Wait! How can anyone not like this show? To me, it's up there with great classics like - Terra Nova!  

Seriously, I do like this so far, but I also liked TN, and I do see similarities.


----------



## ellinj (Feb 26, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Not very far into it and I see myself dumping ths one pretty quickly. I just not have the patience I did before with shows like this especially with as easily as they cancel them.


I tend to agree, I wish they would make this type of show as a miniseries, with perhaps no more than one season so that there is a definitive begin and end date.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

allan said:


> Wait! How can anyone not like this show? To me, it's up there with great classics like - Terra Nova!
> 
> Seriously, I do like this so far, but I also liked TN, and I do see similarities.


Terra Nova died because it cost way too much per episode? How much does an episode of Revolution cost?

On a side note about the rating of Revolution. It was advertised like crazy the past few months so I would expect the pilot episode to have high ratings. The ratings for tonight will be an indicator if they can keep their audience.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

ellinj said:


> I tend to agree, I wish they would make this type of show as a miniseries, with perhaps no more than one season so that there is a definitive begin and end date.


Agreed! If they did that, we could be sure of getting a complete story, and maybe more people would give it a chance.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

morac said:


> Terra Nova died because it cost way too much per episode? How much does an episode of Revolution cost?


Good point. I'm sure swords are cheaper than dinosaurs.



> On a side note about the rating of Revolution. It was advertised like crazy the past few months so I would expect the pilot episode to have high ratings. The ratings for tonight will be an indicator if they can keep their audience.


Keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

allan said:


> Good point. I'm sure swords are cheaper than dinosaurs.
> 
> Keeping my fingers crossed.


Yeah. But, the candle budget might be a little high for Revolution.
 
I am guessing the carbon offsets will add to the costs.
 

Tim S.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> The learning curve to go from a hunk of metal to a functional sword (and by functional, I mean, usuable as a sword, not a heavy shaped chunk of metal that makes a decent club) using pre-Industrial methods is very steep relative to other handcrafts.


Don't you mean gentle, not steep?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

ellinj said:


> I tend to agree, I wish they would make this type of show as a miniseries, with perhaps no more than one season so that there is a definitive begin and end date.


I agree that I wish TV networks made miniseries more often. Especially if your story contains a big over the top mystery (The Event, Flash Forward, Alcatraz?) that needs to be answered eventually. With that said not every scripted drama has to be a mini series, but we're getting none at the moment.


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> Don't you mean gentle, not steep?


I thought I understand the original statement meaning; but, it is not obvious which is correct gentle or steep to mean it is hard to do.

Most places I worked would say it is a steep learning curve to mean it is hard to learn how to do. But, I am not sure right now if that is correct. I realize I have never seen a real learning curve. I have only heard the saying.

What is on the X and Y axis of learning curve?

Edit: This site implies gentle is correct for hard to learn tasks.

http://www.psywww.com/intropsych/ch07_cognition/learning_curve.html

Tim S.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Any predictions on the ratings for tonight's episode? Last week was a 4.1 with little competition other than MNF in the East and Central. Tonight it will be against the season premieres of Hawaii Five-0 and Castle, as well as MNF.

As a fan of this show, I'll be very pleased if it gets anything above a 3.0, and will still be optimistic if it's above a 2.7. If it falls much more than that, then then I'll start to be a little pessimistic about its long-term chances.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Polcamilla said:


> I think you're right, but did anyone in Hollywood ever consider Jericho to be a hit?


Only the nuts.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> Don't you mean gentle, not steep?


I have no idea what you are taking about. Things that are easy to learn (scrapbookimng, swing dancing) have a gentle learning curve. Things that are very difficult (Chinese, stringed instruments, reliably launching rockets into space) have a steep learning curve.

One axis is effort and the other is achievement. There is no time axis.


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Polcamilla said:


> I have no idea what you are taking about. Things that are easy to learn (scrapbookimng, swing dancing) have a gentle learning curve. Things that are very difficult (Chinese, stringed instruments, reliably launching rockets into space) have a steep learning curve.
> 
> One axis is effort and the other is achievement. There is no time axis.


If your independent variable is effort, then high achievement with little effort is a steep curve.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

vman41 said:


> If your independent variable is effort, then high achievement with little effort is a steep curve.


Except that doesn't jibe with the traditional saying which equates a steep learning curve to something that's difficult to learn.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that doesn't jibe with the traditional saying which equates a steep learning curve to something that's difficult to learn.


Lots of expressions don't make sense when you think about them.

"Head over heels" comes to mind. Seems to me that's the normal state of affairs.


----------



## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

Polcamilla said:


> Really? What faires?
> 
> I ask because at ours, we have ONE working forge (that produces horseshoes, nails, and the like) and a guy who does glass blowing and trained in Venice. We have leathercrafts and needle felting and spinning and weaving and paper making and period cooking and baking and illumination and drafting and a small amount of woodworking and a jewlery smith who makes pins, brooches, and small coins (this guy gave my 8 yr. old a hacksaw and a chunk of brass for an afternoon but won't let her touch the hand-powered drill because of the risk of injury). We have two booths that SELL swords and daggers, but we have absolutely no one onsite that makes them. Of the two sellers, one makes unfunctional decorative crap and the other has a 3-6 month turnaround time for a dagger.
> 
> I've only been to a handful of Renaissance Faires but a handful more historical sites doing recreation. I've seen muskets loaded and fired and I've seen blacksmiths doing decorative wrought iron. I have never, ever, ever seen anyone making a sword.


Here is a picture of my son making a sword at his local Ren Faire a few years ago. He was posted @ Fort Riley Ks.

It took some time but he completed it. I've held it in my hands.


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I just realized tonight is not being recorded. I forgot that I had to move it to another DVR. And I am finding it hard to care.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

Craigbob said:


> Here is a picture of my son making a sword at his local Ren Faire a few years ago. He was posted @ Fort Riley Ks.
> 
> It took some time but he completed it. I've held it in my hands.


Nice!

Is he also a Buddhist monk?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> I have no idea what you are taking about. Things that are easy to learn (scrapbookimng, swing dancing) have a gentle learning curve. Things that are very difficult (Chinese, stringed instruments, reliably launching rockets into space) have a steep learning curve.


You have it exactly backwards



> One axis is effort and the other is achievement. There is no time axis.


If you get high increases in achievement with little incremental effort, then it has a steep learning curve.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> They need bat'leth's


I just watched "The Hunger Games" over the weekend, and thought the same thing about one scene where you see a bunch of swords and such on a wall.. Having a batleth there would've been awesome.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that doesn't jibe with the traditional saying which equates a steep learning curve to something that's difficult to learn.


That's only because the term has been co-opted to mean the opposite of its actual meaning.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

robojerk said:


> I agree that I wish TV networks made miniseries more often.


Off topic for this show, but one thing that was weird was that Missing was shown in the clips of "miniseries" on the Emmys last night. It wasn't always intended as only one year, right? If the ratings had been better, somehow they intended to continue it?

(at least they DID show all of it, though I still have the finale unwatched.. I'm glad they DID show all of it, as well as all of The Firm being shown.)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mattack said:


> Off topic for this show, but one thing that was weird was that Missing was shown in the clips of "miniseries" on the Emmys last night. It wasn't always intended as only one year, right? If the ratings had been better, somehow they intended to continue it?
> 
> (at least they DID show all of it, though I still have the finale unwatched.. I'm glad they DID show all of it, as well as all of The Firm being shown.)


The rules for what qualifies as a miniseries for the Emmys are completely screwed up, and producers/publicists know how to manipulate the system.

For example: Downton Abbey S1 was in the miniseries category last year, despite the fact that it was an ongoing show. Missing was intended to be an ongoing show, but when it wasn't renewed, the producers submitted it as a miniseries. American Horror Story was renewed and will continue on for a second season, but because they basically ended the S1 storyline and S2 will be a completely new story, it qualified for miniseries as well.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Awards shows in general make a lot more sense if you realize their purpose isn't to make sense; their purpose is to generate publicity.


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Finally made it through the Pilot episode.

So far so good. A bit cheesy at times, but still pretty entertaining. Set recordings for the next eps.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I enjoyed last nights episode. I thought it was a very good second episode.


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I enjoyed last nights episode. I thought it was a very good second episode.


Damn! I was hoping it had sucked, so I would not have to track it down after missing the recording.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I enjoyed last nights episode. I thought it was a very good second episode.


Wrong thread....


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> Wrong thread....


Yeah, those kind of untagged spoilers just RUIN the viewing experience. Here I was, just assuming the second episode was going to suck, but then I found out it was a very good episode before I even had a chance to watch it.


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

So where is the "right" thread? Since there is no episode two thread.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, those kind of untagged spoilers just RUIN the viewing experience. Here I was, just assuming the second episode was going to suck, but then I found out it was a very good episode before I even had a chance to watch it.


Crap....now I just CAN'T watch it and enjoy it.....bah....



eddyj said:


> So where is the "right" thread? Since there is no episode two thread.


I haven't watched E2 yet, otherwise I would have created one....


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

The fact that we are discussing the lack of a thread in another thread does not bode well for this show.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Here I am ready to discuss (in spoilers) casting shown at the end of episode 2, in the preview for episode 3, but no place to go to do it...

...too lazy to start the Episode 2 thread on my own.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

danterner said:


> Here I am ready to discuss (in spoilers) casting shown at the end of episode 2, in the preview for episode 3, but no place to go to do it...
> 
> ...too lazy to start the Episode 2 thread on my own.


Oh...alright....I'll do it....


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Any predictions on the ratings for tonight's episode? Last week was a 4.1 with little competition other than MNF in the East and Central. Tonight it will be against the season premieres of Hawaii Five-0 and Castle, as well as MNF.
> 
> As a fan of this show, I'll be very pleased if it gets anything above a 3.0, and will still be optimistic if it's above a 2.7. If it falls much more than that, then then I'll start to be a little pessimistic about its long-term chances.


Episode 2 pulled a 3.5, fairly easily beating Castle and Hawaii 5-0 in the key demo. That's a very good number. I wouldn't be surprised if NBC pulls an HBO and orders a second season right now. (Actually, I would, because the broadcast nets never do that, but you have to imagine they're pretty giddy at 30 Rock).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Episode 2 pulled a 3.5, fairly easily beating Castle and Hawaii 5-0 in the key demo. That's a very good number. I wouldn't be surprised if NBC pulls an HBO and orders a second season right now. (Actually, I would, because the broadcast nets never do that, but you have to imagine they're pretty giddy at 30 Rock).


Wow, a 3.5 for the second episode against other season premieres and MNF - that's very impressive. I guess the endless promotion NBC did over the last couple months really paid off.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I see now that some of the DVR ratings are in, the Revolution premiere had the highest gain ever for a premiere on any network from Live plus same day to Live plus three day.
It went from a 4.09 to a 5.45 rating. Which also makes it NBCs best Premiere at 10PM in almost eight years. When Medium premiered.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/09/25/revolution-sets-time-shifting-records/150082/


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

eddyj said:


> Damn! I was hoping it had sucked, so I would not have to track it down after missing the recording.


If you actually do want to watch it, it is being repeated Saturday at 8pm.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

I fell asleep watching it last night.

Glad I can read about how it did in this thread without having to worry about spoilers.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I see now that some of the DVR ratings are in, the Revolution premiere had the highest gain ever for a premiere on any network from Live plus same day to Live plus three day.
> It went from a 4.09 to a 5.45 rating. Which also makes it NBCs best Premiere at 10PM in almost eight years. When Medium premiered.
> 
> http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/09/25/revolution-sets-time-shifting-records/150082/


It comes on at 10?


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> It comes on at 10?


Or 9, Central Time.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

allan said:


> Or 9, Central Time.


Oh. I just set up the season pass and walk away. As long as I don't get any conflicts I don't bother looking. I don't even know what day it airs, my TiVo takes care of that for me.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> Oh. I just set up the season pass and walk away. As long as I don't get any conflicts I don't bother looking. I don't even know what day it airs, my TiVo takes care of that for me.


I think the main reason I remembered is that I usually watch 7-8 PM shows the night they're on. I usually watch the news at 9 PM, and go to bed at 10, so I didn't see Revolution until the next evening.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

allan said:


> I think the main reason I remembered is that I usually watch 7-8 PM shows the night they're on. I usually watch the news at 9 PM, and go to bed at 10, so I didn't see Revolution until the next evening.


I will admit there are a couple I know, Doctor Who is one of them. I know the day but not the time since I can't get BBC America without a cable card and with cable cards I can't transfer shows, so I bought a season pass on Amazon to the show. It's generally available Saturday morning, the day after it airs.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

DLiquid said:


> There were small trees growing there too, but I won't harp on the grassy airport complaint anymore.


There are many trees that will happily grow on a half-inch of soil that's piled up on top of a rock, and then grow its roots around the side of the rock when that's used up. They just don't get much larger than that and then get uprooted by wind, but it's still common. If they'd had *large* trees that would be more problematic.

Twenty seconds into the show my wife hit pause and said "Honey, if you ever come home and say 'fill the tubs and sinks with water' I will not stare at you gape-mouthed, I will fill the tubs and sinks with water." Ten seconds after we started it again she stopped it and said "And she *knew* something could happen?" I wonder, though, if she wouldn't be just as paralyzed with panic as Elizabeth Mitchell's character was.

I am always nervous about a show prominently featuring teenagers, and especially when they go out of their way right at the start to be annoying and stupid. And so many of these shows depend so heavily on the characters being stupid anyway. Even Big Bad Uncle was pretty stupid: "I'm going to stay here despite the fact that they're coming for me. They came for me. Okay, now that everything happened exactly as I knew it would, now I guess I won't stay here." I hope that the show won't keep depending on the Stupid Ball being passed around.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Hunter Green said:


> I hope that the show won't keep depending on the Stupid Ball being passed around.


Sadly, I would bet the Stupid Ball actually breeds and multiplies.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

I'm going to try to man up and force myself to watch Episode 2 despite the poor writing on yet another interesting premise, e.g. Terra Nova. Sad that FlashForward seemed much better.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

dcheesi said:


> ... A better question would be: if the electro-chemical processes in a simple battery don't work, how the heck do _people_ work? We're just a bundle of electro-chemical processes ourselves...


Exactly.

If even batteries don't work, that means chemistry doesn't work, it means molecules don't have anything to hold them together, and maybe even atoms don't either.

Suspension of disbelief is one thing, suspension of all logic and any knowledge whatsoever of scientific principles is something else altogether.

Why am I suddenly thinking of politics?


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