# Do cables Cards put Tivo's futere in doubt?



## dgoto

Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card 

My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like 

Anyone have any thoughts 

Thanks


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## zalusky

dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks


Channels DVR stores recordings local. Has a guide that looks like Tivo. Recordings are easily available on the local server where it runs and can easily be copied.


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## dgoto

Thanks for the reply, Is this a software DVR? What is your source for programming, and does it require a cable card? Where is the recording saved on your PC hard drive and is the format easier converted to something like MP4


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## dgoto

Channels

Can this record more than one program at a time? I remember before buying a Tivo I was researching other PC based options and a good friend just told me just buy Tivo and don't worry about how things work together etc. He was right and I have no regrets but sadly I am now havng doubts about the Tivo future. So looking for alternatives. I have Comcast as my cable source. ,


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## zalusky

dgoto said:


> Channels
> 
> Can this record more than one program at a time? I remember before buying a Tivo I was researching other PC based options and a good friend just told me just buy Tivo and don't worry about how things work together etc. He was right and I have no regrets but sadly I am now havng doubts about the Tivo future. So looking for alternatives. I have Comcast as my cable source. ,


You configure in your media subscriptions to it: Xfinity, YTTV, Hulu Live, and others. You can change those subscriptions without affecting your season passes.

The software vendor is here:  Channels — Channels DVR Server 

There is a thread in this forum here:
 https://www.tivocommunity.com/threads/channels-dvr.584214/ 

Ask your questions there.


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## pl1

dgoto said:


> Thanks for the reply, Is this a software DVR? What is your source for programming, and does it require a cable card? Where is the recording saved on your PC hard drive and is the format easier converted to something like MP4


I know nothing, but, I have done a little research on it. If you want to combine your CableCARD with this service, I'm pretty sure you need to buy an HD Homerun Prime box for about $150 ( HDHomeRun - Watch TV anywhere in your home ) and pay about $80/yr for guide data.


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## dmurphy

pl1 said:


> I know nothing, but, I have done a little research on it. If you want to combine your CableCARD with this service, I'm pretty sure you need to buy an HD Homerun Prime box for about $150 ( HDHomeRun - Watch TV anywhere in your home ) and pay about $80/yr for guide data.


You got it. And it works SPLENDIDLY well. I can't tell you the last time I flipped back to my Bolt, to be honest. I just use the Channels app on my Apple TV nowadays.


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## Fofer

But you can also link it with your live TV streaming channels via TV Everywhere.

And/or use it with just an HDHomeRun Flex 4K and an antenna, for the locals. 

No cable card required.


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## mdavej

pl1 said:


> I know nothing, but, I have done a little research on it. If you want to combine your CableCARD with this service, I'm pretty sure you need to buy an HD Homerun Prime box for about $150 ( HDHomeRun - Watch TV anywhere in your home ) and pay about $80/yr for guide data.


The Prime won’t record copy protected channels even with a cable card except with Windows Media Center (good luck using that today). 

Not sure what you’re referring to for the guide data. 

While Channels is awesome, some may consider it redundant if you already have a cloud DVR service like YouTube TV. I get by just fine with YouTube TV alone.


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## zalusky

mdavej said:


> The Prime won’t record copy protected channels even with a cable card except with Windows Media Center (good luck using that today).
> 
> Not sure what you’re referring to for the guide data.
> 
> While Channels is awesome, some may consider it redundant if you already have a cloud DVR service like YouTube TV. I get by just fine with YouTube TV alone.


if thats your only source of content but I have a lot of local channels not available in YTTV.


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## pl1

mdavej said:


> The Prime won’t record copy protected channels even with a cable card except with Windows Media Center (good luck using that today). Not sure what you’re referring to for the guide data.


Like I said, I wasn't sure. It says $80/year to "Get a whole home DVR today*." *So you have to pay an additional $35/yr at silicon dust to get 14 days instead of 24 hours? "*The subscription cost is $35/year for your whole home (that includes as many devices as you wish)*."

EDIT: Based on this link, Channels for HDHomeRun, you can use the Homerun free on Channels if you want Live, no DVR, or $80/yr for the whole home DVR.


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## mdavej

pl1 said:


> Like I said, I wasn't sure. It says $80/year to "Get a whole home DVR today*." *So you have to pay an additional $35/yr at silicon dust to get 14 days instead of 24 hours? "*The subscription cost is $35/year for your whole home (that includes as many devices as you wish)*."
> 
> EDIT: Based on this link, Channels for HDHomeRun, you can use the Homerun free on Channels if you want Live, no DVR, or $80/yr for the whole home DVR.


Silicon Dust’s DVR service is horrible. You couldn’t pay me enough to use it. But Channels also costs money.


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## zalusky

mdavej said:


> Silicon Dust’s DVR service is horrible. You couldn’t pay me enough to use it. But Channels also costs money.


If you are no longer paying for service than you are no longer their customer of interest which is why so called lifetime is not necessarily a good thing.


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## mdavej

zalusky said:


> If you are no longer paying for service than you are no longer their customer of interest which is why so called lifetime is not necessarily a good thing.


???


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## zalusky

mdavej said:


> ???


You brought up that channels also cost money and its not necessarily about you but there are a lot of whiners that hate paying subscription fees. What I was trying to say is that if you are no longer paying then the providers need to make money somewhere else and do t have your interest in mind.


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## Fofer

zalusky said:


> If you are no longer paying for service than you are no longer their customer of interest which is why so called lifetime is not necessarily a good thing.


I use an HDHomeRun and pay for Channels DVR, I don’t pay SiliconDust for their service because that would be redundant.


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## DigitalDawn

The only thing I would miss by using Channels, is automatically recording HBO and Showtime programming. In other words, without having to open a separate HBO app, for example.


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## Fofer

I record content from those channels via PlayOn Cloud and those recordings automatically integrate with Channels DVR









PlayOn Cloud


Learn, get started, and get help with Channels.



getchannels.com


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## ragingfish

dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks


I had comcast previously and was told by several folks at various levels that they're phasing out cablecards. They'll grandfather in anyone that has one currently but eventually, replacements will be unavailable and if the card fails, the subscriber is outta luck.

I have fios now, and I went through HELL trying to get a cablecard with my service. The guy who came to install it didn't even know how to pair/activate it, and had to call a supervisor in the field for assistance. Needless to say, he still got it wrong, and I spent many nights on the phone with verizon trying to get my service fixed. The hard drive in my Premiere failed last month, and I bought a replacement from weaknees, and had to go through the process ALL OVER AGAIN to get my card reactivated.


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## lessd

dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks


 In the Hartford CT are Comcast does not charge anymore for having or using cable cards, I needed one and they sent me two, so now I have an extra if ever needed.


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## BosTV

Every year I sacrifice a goat to keep my Verizon Fios CableCard working.


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## Cachelady5

dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks


Hello,
I am a long time user of Tivo also. I was told by Tivo they don't do that any longer due to licensing rights. We are able to keep those movies on the Hard Drive until we choose to delete them and there are no royalties being paid.

I started with the Premier HD XL and added an external HD to increase storage space, I believer to 2 TB. At that time I had the software that would allow me to send movies back and forth my PC, they are all saved on there. I am trying to find out how to convert them to MP4's, can you please tell me how to do that? Do I need special software? In reference to the cable card issue, I am with Optimum, I recently purchased the Edge, however, I don't think I have the option to send movies to my PC, can you do it with your Edge? If so can you tell me how? When I got the Edge I called Optimum and they came to install a new cable card. They said they are not discontinuing the cards, not to worry. I don't know about Comcast, why would they? I am using the Edge on a new TV and the old Premier in the bedroom. I have over 200 movies on there I would love to be able to save and stream from my PC to make room on my Tivo's for more recording. If you can't help me can you please tell me who can? I am not that technical but I am trying to learn.

Thank and I hope


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## Gavin Smith12364

dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks


Hi,

I was happy to randomly stumble on your post as I had the same issue last yr (Spectrum Cable in NYC). 

I suddenly started receiving error messages and could not view cable on my Bolt. Spectrum told me it was a cable card isse. The tech came out for a home visit and it was a waste of time. Same story - he hadn't seen a Tivo and the cable cards were not available. 

I looked at / experimented with the HD HomeRun Prime. No luck for Spectrum customers in NYC as Spectrum uses DRM, i.e. encrypts most of the channels. The only option available is Tivo. I even considered purchasing my own cablecard, 

I think the larger cable companies are trying to render the Tivo boxes obsolete.


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## cshilton

I hadn't heard of the Channels DVR. It looks like a good option. A third option is MythTV which can work with SiliconDust tuners as well as Hauppage tuners connected via component video to a cable box. MythTV is very hands on Linux however so the learning curve is pretty steep. Guide data for MythTV costs about $25.00 / year.

My experience has also been that the Cable TV is trying to starve out the TiVo and other CableCard ecosystem. The cards are difficult to get and once you get them, finding the one tech in the shop that can properly bind them to your account and your equipment is nearly impossible. Other engineering divisions within the Cable Company are moving to Switched Digital Video such that you need a tuning adapter to even know which channel is on which frequency. For the cable company the tuning adapter is another esoteric piece of equipment that is hard to come by and in my case, impossible to get setup on your account.


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## dougdingle

mdavej said:


> ???


What they are saying is that once you buy lifetime service, you are no longer a revenue stream to TiVo but they still have to keep your device up to date, allow daily logins on their server, and must continue to send guide updates daily.

You are now an expense.

I've often wondered about that, and how it affects things like a large number of original Minis just suddenly failing all at once - two here in the space of a month, and lots of other posts from people whose Minis just suddenly died.

After having been a TiVo client for about 20 years starting with the original Series 1, the current Roamio Pro and four Minis here are the last gasp. When the Roamio dies, I'm done with cable and TiVo. 

Among other reasons, the required Tuning Adapter for using TiVo with Spectrum and a cable card has proven to be an ongoing years long nightmare. When Spectrum changed the channel routing assignments, as they regularly do in SDV systems, they used to send a reboot command to the TA so it could update its routing table. Now they don't bother. When they change the table routing assignments, what happens now is that those channels subject to SDV now just stop working. You have to notice this yourself when you discover shows have not recorded because "The channel wasn't available" and you have to power cycle the TA yourself. This is in what is likely one of Spectrum's top three markets in the U.S.

Just too much nonsense for 2022. If I had any off-air signals here (which I don't), I would have abandoned the system five years ago.


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## dougdingle

Gavin Smith12364 said:


> I think the larger cable companies are trying to render the Tivo boxes obsolete.


It's the slow death by a thousand cuts. They can't currently just stop supporting TiVos with cablecards, but they can make it really difficult.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that every TiVo on a cable system loses them one of their big revenue streams - that inexpensive cable box they rent at $10/month, and let's not forget that its optional remote is another $2.50/month. 

So for each TiVo on the system, they lose about $150/year in cablebox rental revenue. Quite an incentive to not have any working cablecards in stock.


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## Pokemon_Dad

Cachelady5 said:


> Hello,
> I am a long time user of Tivo also. I was told by Tivo they don't do that any longer due to licensing rights. We are able to keep those movies on the Hard Drive until we choose to delete them and there are no royalties being paid.
> 
> I started with the Premier HD XL and added an external HD to increase storage space, I believer to 2 TB. At that time I had the software that would allow me to send movies back and forth my PC, they are all saved on there. I am trying to find out how to convert them to MP4's, can you please tell me how to do that? Do I need special software? In reference to the cable card issue, I am with Optimum, I recently purchased the Edge, however, I don't think I have the option to send movies to my PC, can you do it with your Edge? If so can you tell me how? When I got the Edge I called Optimum and they came to install a new cable card. They said they are not discontinuing the cards, not to worry. I don't know about Comcast, why would they? I am using the Edge on a new TV and the old Premier in the bedroom. I have over 200 movies on there I would love to be able to save and stream from my PC to make room on my Tivo's for more recording. If you can't help me can you please tell me who can? I am not that technical but I am trying to learn.
> 
> Thank and I hope


You can download from TiVo to PC using the free pyTivo Desktop. Assuming that works OK for you, and I suggest you try it first before looking into the next steps, then you'll need to convert the files from .tivo to .mp4 and the easiest way to do that is to buy VideoReDo. There are posts in other threads (examples here and here) about alternatives to VideoReDo, but those are a bit more technical.


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## BosTV

BosTV said:


> Every year I sacrifice a goat to keep my Verizon Fios CableCard working.


Yes. Tom Brady and Simone Biles both have me to blame for their recent performance woes.


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## SandiMacD

dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks


If it was me, I would return the Edge. But I've never had one. Just Roamios and Premieres.

I spent a huge amount of time recording and transferring TiVo shows to my computer 2004 to 2017. Thought it would be so handy to rewatch "someday". Well, 18 years later and I'm retired and instead of watching my classic movies and recorded TV series, I am finding them all available via streaming. 

We dropped cable 4 years ago and went with OTA Roamios. While Tivo has the most responsive FF/skip functions, Roku is not far behind. Last month I unplugged my Tivos to save energy. Our weather makes antenna reception iffy. Between the Rokus on the TVs and the channel apps on my iPad I can watch anything anywhere, even broadcasts decades ago. Haven't touched those recorded files as streaming is so much more convenient.

I have a Mac and am able to record some streaming programs while I am playing them. For example, a friend was on a public service station news cast and I recorded her. Again, time and effort to do so. Only to discover later the station offers their broadcasts via You Tube!!

The drawback to "streaming only" is the internet connection. We only have 15mb down in our rural area and no problems streaming. But when internet is out (power outages) then of course we can't stream. (But then Tivo wouldn't record either.)

For main broadcasting we opted for Fubo and couldn't be happier to watch programs anywhere, anytime on mobile devices and Roku, especially the ability to create multiple profiles. Bolt may be different but my Tivos don't offer profiles. I absolutely love them as hubby can record his man shows and I can record mine. Neither get lost in a list or deleted by the other person. With Fubo, they don't expire. I've had some movies and specials that have been in my Fubo Cloud recording for years.


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## TiViHead

Gavin Smith12364 said:


> I think the larger cable companies are trying to render the Tivo boxes obsolete.


You are absolutely right! Long-time TiVo customer started with Series 1. I have Optimum and it was always a hassle for cable cards with them. A few months ago I started having problems with pixelated reception and blank screens on the Premium channels for which I was paying. Optimum blamed my TiVo Edge and TiVo Support blamed the cable cards. Got an Edge replacement, had to go through multiple cable cards because Optimum "Support" claimed I received defective cards. After 6 weeks of only basic cable reception, an Optimum Support person told me they were being forced to discontinue cable cards because the Premium channel content providers (Discovery, Paramount. etc.) were not allowing their channels to be accessed through cable cards. (I know, this is pure BS!)

So, I dropped cable TV with Optimum and use the TiVo 4k streaming stick through internet. Hulu+ replaced most Optimum Premium channels and I save $. I already was using Amazon Video and Netflix for some content. Not as easy to use as TiVo box, but I can live with it.


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## Brighton Line

I too am a 20+ year Cablevision CableCARD user with two Tivo's. Always an issue with them. Call for service and they insist it is the Tivo or its the home wiring. Lately been losing premium channels for days then they just reappear. Call for service and they send a contractor who walks in asking where the cableboxes are. Tell them no I have cableCARD and the contractor literally runs out the door and my ticket is closed with "refused service".

I believe in 2020 FCC dropped the requirement for support and reporting requirements by cable operators, recognizing that cable industry deployment and use of CableCARDs have been “disappointing.” In eliminating the CableCARD consumer support requirements, the FCC said that the rules “no longer serve a useful purpose following the D.C. Circuit Court’s 2013 decision in the “Echostar” case, which overturned a 2003 FCC order mandating that CableCARDs must be used by all multichannel video programming distributors (MVPDs) to assure security requirement for navigation device 

See: The FCC is allowing cable TV companies to stop providing CableCARDs because no one used them.


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## Doug Drye

dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks


Sorry to hear that Comcast is beginning to restrict the availability of Cable Cards... But that was expected once the FCC dropped the requirement that they make Cable Cards available to
customers (FCC-20-124A1.pdfhttps://docs.fcc.gov › public › attachments › FCC-...) in 2020. Frankly I'm surprised they are going to send you one at all...
I believe the only reason they will is that many of
their older DVRs used cable cards internally and I suppose they continue to have to buy them to keep their customers with older rented DVRs running.. Once those are gone they (I believe will
stop the availability of cable cards.... (BTW ONE Cable Card is included in the Comcast TV plan normally... Additionals are $5 or so a month here in the Atlanta Area...)

I have three cablecards (working, thank heavens) two on Tivo Bolts (Under a hardware warranty) and one on an HD Homerun Prime recording shows on Plex Media Server...
I also have numerous Tivo Mini's around the house so I feel your pain when it comes to wanting Tivo to continue to work... 
I'm moving away from Tivo and over to Plex Media Server because I believe the end of Tivo Availability and usefulness will be within the next few years.... 
Streaming is taking over. When my current Tivo drop off the hardware warranty I plan to switch....
I will be using Apple TV but Roku boxes are good too as a TV client to talk to my Plex server and either Youtube TV or SlingTV streaming service or something else I find in the mean time...
IMO The Tivo Clients have gone down hill for years... Much better IMO to use something like Apple TV or Roku where the developers are contracted by the streaming services to keep
their client up to date... Tivo (again IMO) hasn't kept up some of the clients we use and it's a pain....

I understand you like your Tivo.. My wife and I have used ours for many many years (since Tivo version 1) but the end is near... Time to look around IMO... Youtube TV and Sling TV are the most
reasonable streaming services IMO to look at... Comcast TV costs a lot even without Movie Channels but buy each and every streaming service to replace the channels I believe will cost me
more, so I refuse to buy all the streaming services... Also I'm putting my HDTV antenna back up and planning to records locals using HD HomeRun OTA....

Regarding Saving streaming... I know of no other DVR that allows that openly (which is why I've used Tivo for so long)... At least none that receives protected content.......

BTW I want to say that Tivo has been very good for us... Their customer service and support has been excellent.... I will miss them...

OH, BTW.. That Cable card you said paired but didn't work... The Comcast 1st level support have no way to fix that... You have to escalate to get someone to fix it.. If you will
private message me I have an idea on how to get that done that I've used successfully in the past... In fact it was a Tivo Customer service Rep who gave me solution....

It's a jungle!!! Sorry you are in this situation... As I am...

Good Luck!

Doug


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## pl1

ragingfish said:


> I have fios now, and I went through HELL trying to get a cablecard with my service. The guy who came to install it didn't even know how to pair/activate it, and had to call a supervisor in the field for assistance. Needless to say, he still got it wrong, and I spent many nights on the phone with verizon trying to get my service fixed. The hard drive in my Premiere failed last month, and I bought a replacement from weaknees, and had to go through the process ALL OVER AGAIN to get my card reactivated.


Similar experience for me about a year ago. At least when I placed the order on-line, the chat CSR did know how to add a CableCARD to my order, and the tech did have a card with him, and I thought he had paired it correctly (or as they want to hear it, "Manually Validated") because my RSN was working. But, after he left, I was going through the channels, and the CableCARD menu popped up, VAL=? on some of them.

While it was painful to call them and sit on the phone, I will give them credit for two things. 1-The CSR who was helping me actually called me after I got disconnected. And 2, about a week after installing a new card, the same CSR called me to ask if I had returned the old one (which I had, and got a receipt), which I'm sure saved me from being billed for two cards.

But, I do dread having to contact either Comcast or Verizon to pair a cableCARD. So, I have made a copy of my current setup on to a new replacement drive ready to insert in the event of a hdd failure. 😃

EDIT: Grammar


----------



## mdavej

Doug Drye said:


> I have three cablecards (working, thank heavens) two on Tivo Bolts (Under a hardware warranty) and one on an HD Homerun Prime recording shows on Plex Media Server...
> 
> Regarding Saving streaming... I know of no other DVR that allows that openly (which is why I've used Tivo for so long)... At least none that receives protected content.......


Your Prime will record protected content if you use it with Windows Media Center. That's what I used before Tivo, and it worked great. But it would be tricky to get a new install of it working today.

Channels DVR, PlayOn, and a few others will record streaming. Although I don't personally see the point in doing that.


----------



## dougdingle

mdavej said:


> Channels DVR, PlayOn, and a few others will record streaming. Although I don't personally see the point in doing that.


Two reasons I can think of...

Content that isn't owned by a streaming service tends to drop off the service after a while. HBOMAX is particularly awful for that - they actually have a section labeled "Leaving This Month!" Netflix tends to drop off content that isn't popular, even if they own it. And Prime, well, Prime is just money grubbing gouging trash. Try watching a few free episodes over a few seasons of, say, Star Trek Voyager, then come back a few weeks later to watch some more and notice that now it's magically $3 per episode, or about $25 per season. I wouldn't pay $1/month for Prime if it wasn't free with their (rarely these days) two day shipping.

And if your Internet dies, without offline storage (including DVDs) or off-air, your entertainment system is very dead. Before I say goodbye to my Roamio, I'm going to record a bunch of movies for that purpose.


----------



## mdavej

dougdingle said:


> Two reasons I can think of...
> 
> Content that isn't owned by a streaming service tends to drop off the service after a while. HBOMAX is particularly awful for that - they actually have a section labeled "Leaving This Month!" Netflix tends to drop off content that isn't popular, even if they own it. And Prime, well, Prime is just money grubbing gouging trash. Try watching a few free episodes over a few seasons of, say, Star Trek Voyager, then come back a few weeks later to watch some more and notice that now it's magically $3 per episode, or about $25 per season. I wouldn't pay $1/month for Prime if it wasn't free with their (rarely these days) two day shipping.
> 
> And if your Internet dies, without offline storage (including DVDs) or off-air, your entertainment system is very dead. Before I say goodbye to my Roamio, I'm going to record a bunch of movies for that purpose.


Yeah, I can see that. But if I haven't watched something within 6 months of its release, honestly, I'm never going to watch it. There's actually a lot of stuff on HBO that's been repeating continuously for decades. I've never been one to collect DVDs or amass a huge recording library. I'm a watch and delete kind of guy. If I miss something that dropped off before I got around to it, it's not the end of the world.

I hear you on Prime. I'll watch one episode of something one day for free, and then the next day it's all of a sudden behind a pay wall. WTF? 

Anyway, I'm content with 100% cloud DVR and streaming. There's so much content out there, I could never watch it all, much less record it and watch it later. I'm ashamed to say most of my screen time is actually plain old Youtube, not all the streaming services I pay for every month.


----------



## mac_cmh

dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks


Yeah, I think CableCard's days are numbered, and with it TiVo as we know it. I started with the original Series 1, and I currently have both a Bolt and a Premier 4, with cable service through Spectrum in Ohio. They also have a hard time finding replacement cable cards; I needed a replacement last year and they ordered one from God knows where; it took a couple weeks. And the break the service, or accidentally unpair the devices, a couple times each year. 

What I would really miss when TiVo is gone are two things: one is the Season Pass function, and the other is the Trick Play video player. I record a lot of baseball -- or at least I used to -- and rather than spend 3 hours watching a game, I usually fast forward through the slow parts, and stop when something happens. You just can't fast forward that way in streaming programming, because they don't show you enough frames to actually follow what is happening.

So, I was extremely disappointed to find this year that I could not order the MLB Extra Innings package from Spectrum -- it is no longer supported for cable cards, just for their set top boxes. Bummer. I follow via MLB.tv now; it just ignore l isn't the same.

I think download speeds are getting fast enough that somebody COULD build a TiVo-grade DVR for TV-over-IP, or even just for streaming, but I've seen nothing that really compares to TiVo. I do also own a TiVo Steam 4k; it's an ok steamer but I'd just as soon use my Roku. Does TiVo really think their business model for the future is just to build little streaming devices that compete against Roku and Amazon Fire Stick and Android TV? Features like Trick play, Season Pass, and TiVo Suggestions are what MADE TiVo a household name. Let's hope they figure out some way to avoid letting the TiVo experience go the way of the dinosaurs.


----------



## Dave in Phoenix

mdavej said:


> Channels DVR, PlayOn, and a few others will record streaming. Although I don't personally see the point in doing that.


I am a decades? happy TIVO user but concerned about the future. I want to save some content on PC so I can edit them. For example, America's Got Talent - maybe want to edit down an hour to just a few minutes of notable talent I want to save for the future. But not the whole show. I download a lot and edit with VideoRedo. Wish I could download protected stuff,


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mdavej said:


> Channels DVR, PlayOn, and a few others will record streaming. Although I don't personally see the point in doing that.


They index and skip commercials, for one thing.


----------



## zalusky

mdavej said:


> Your Prime will record protected content if you use it with Windows Media Center. That's what I used before Tivo, and it worked great. But it would be tricky to get a new install of it working today.
> 
> Channels DVR, PlayOn, and a few others will record streaming. Although I don't personally see the point in doing that.


You can sign up for one month or even during a free promo and download a whole back catalog of a particular show and then watch on your schedule.


----------



## LeeinSF

dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks


I ordered a new Edge and enchanted a similar problem with Comcast in SF. The store was out of Cable Cards. they sent me one, no shipping costs, but it ended up being the wrong cable card. I contacted Customer Service and they were preparing to send me a correct one, but charge for shipping. I mentioned this was their error, and they waved the shipping fee. I received my new cable card and it works fine.


----------



## gabrielstern

dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks



When you remove a cable card from a tivo and reinstall it it becomes unpaired. Especially with Comcast.

As the data Id changes each time you remove it and reinstall it.

I would have called the comcast number and demanded to speak with someone who has access to the cable card pairing and activation system instead of returning the cable card.

Unfortunately these days most are not familiar with tivos or cable cards as Comcast especially keeps trying to push their crappy x1 boxes.

Along with trying to switch channels to iptv only which makes things worse.


----------



## pl1

gabrielstern said:


> When you remove a cable card from a tivo and reinstall it it becomes unpaired. Especially with Comcast.


If you power off the TiVo before you remove the CableCARD, and reinsert it, you will definitely not lose any pairing. If you remove a CableCARD while the TiVo is powered on, it is possible you could lose the pairing.


----------



## belanger

TiVo's business model puts TiVo's future in doubt, not cable cards.

I had been a diehard TiVo user and advocate almost from the beginning and stuck with the products long after it stopped making either financial sense or me happy. The combination of TiVo, Mini and Stream were a powerful combination, but with the increasing number of streaming options and the price of TiVo and Cable not dropping appreciably, I finally quit both when I didn't have cable installed after moving last year.

TiVo's UI improvements and features additions just can't justify the monthly subscription cost anymore. I think even TiVo, I mean, xPeri recognizes that given that the TiVo Stream 4K seems to be what they're pushing on their home page. I'm keeping my TiVo plush, but the rest is going to eBay or eWaste...


-MB



dgoto said:


> Cable card issues. I have been a Tivo user for about 12 years and I am generally happy with the product. But I recently had my Edge crash after only 2 years while I was out of town. So I ordered a new EDGE and got it and while setting it up using my old Cable Card it would pair but not work. So I visited my local Comast to get a new card and of course, there were none available, so they contacted all the others stores within 50 miles of my area and none had or have had for months to years. So I contacted Comcast via phone, and I was told they could send me a card for $15 shipping costs and would take 4-5 business days. Obviously,, I wasn't happy. Over the years cable cards were always a sour point when I could find one they were very old and looking pretty worn. So now I am seriously for the first time looking for alternatives while I still have time to return in. I worry about the longer term prospects for Tivo if I can't even easily get a cable card
> 
> My main preference for having Tivo is I have an option of saving and even transferring recordings and sending them to my PC and making a MP4 file from them. Does anyone know any other DVR which will allow that? I think this is why Streaming is being pushed so strongly is it doesn't allow you to really save long-term your recording which I don't like
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts
> 
> Thanks


----------



## dougdingle

If cable cards disappear, TiVo will only have off-air models to sell. They'll be closed and dead in a year maximum after that.


----------



## Fofer

The death of cablecards was an indicator of TiVo's future, but for me, the absolutely awful "support" for streaming services is where TiVo really failed. Spectrum's move to Switched Digital Video introduced a new pain point too. Then without universal support for HDMI-CEC (i.e. on Minis,) TiVo's boxes just became unwieldy and annoying to switch inputs for. I want a consistent UX on all screens, large and small, and I don't want to have to involve universal remotes everywhere just to make up for TiVo's lame shortcomings. TiVo's pivot to the Stream 4K unit could have worked if it also streamed from "legacy" TiVo hardware, but of course they couldn't pull that off, they just defaulted to streaming Sling TV instead, so what's the point?

I've always wanted the freedom and flexibility to watch anything, anywhere, whenever, without TiVo or Spectrum getting in the way. After 20 years of TiVo loyalty I finally had to bail. I switched to Channels DVR two years ago and it has improved the overall TV experience in my household by many orders of magnitude. Having everything I'd want to watch, live or recorded, local or streaming, on one device (AppleTV 4K in my case) and one TV input, has been a game-changer. Extending that same access, live and recorded TV, elegantly and easily to any computer or mobile device in the world has been a dream come true. Recordings are standard MP4 files, with all the ease and flexibility that entails. Channels DVR vastly improved the way I interact with this content when I travel. Saved me money too. My only regret is not doing it 5+ years earlier, when I first started hearing about it.


----------



## dougdingle

Fofer said:


> The death of cablecards was an indicator of TiVo's future, but for me, the absolutely awful "support" for streaming services is where TiVo really failed. Spectrum's move to Switched Digital Video introduced a new pain point too. Then without universal support for HDMI-CEC (i.e. on Minis,) TiVo's boxes just became unwieldy and annoying to switch inputs for.


The Roamio's support for streaming definitely leaves something to be desired. I very rarely use it, although there are times when I'll be watching an old series like ST Voyager on Spectrum's crappy feed, and I will call up the "Watch this on Netflix" feature, and that exact episode is playing in much better quality and commercial-free in a minute or two. That's a very vice feature.

As for CEC, I really wish the Roamio and my Minis supported it, although to be fair the newest versions of both the main box and the minis do so (I have no idea how well, but they do).

The support for Plex has always been so awful as to be pretty much useless. Files will only play back on the Roamio at 720p and the bitrate is capped at like 3 Mb/s. As a result, everything needs transcoding and often stutters on playback.

With all the chatter here about Channels, I'll have to check it out. As long as it doesn't require an off-air feed (I have zero off-air here), it might be a good solution to moving away from Spectrum who raised their rates again this month even as they shed subscribers like so much snakeskin. 

My impression is the last Spectrum subscriber will receive a "Your monthly fee has been increased slightly to $376,254.15" email.


----------



## Fofer

dougdingle said:


> As for CEC, I really wish the Roamio and my Minis supported it, although to be fair the newest versions of both the main box and the minis do so (I have no idea how well, but they do).


The TiVo Stream 4K device supports CEC. And the Roamio, Bolt and Edge devices support CEC, but only if they are running Hydra/TE4 software.

TiVo Mini Series devices, however, are not compatible, on any software version:








TiVo Support Center


Get instant answers to common questions and learn to experience the most from TiVo products.




tivoidp.tivo.com





I'd argued that it was TV's with TiVo minis (simpler setups in kitchens and bedrooms, for example) that would have benefited most from CEC. Alas, TiVo never saw it that way.



dougdingle said:


> With all the chatter here about Channels, I'll have to check it out. As long as it doesn't require an off-air feed (I have zero off-air here), it might be a good solution to moving away from Spectrum who raised their rates again this month even as they shed subscribers like so much snakeskin.


Do it, and never look back. The grass is definitely greener on this other side. I used Channels DVR without an OTA antenna for over a year, getting live feeds via TV Everywhere, Pluto, Stirr, and a bunch of other content providers. I added an antenna later for some ATSC 3.0 signals and it all works together brilliantly.


----------



## Scott R. Scherr

My Roamio Plus supports CEC and ARC and works great.


----------



## Fofer

Yes, mine did too, once I upgraded from TE3 to TE4/Hydra. But the TiVo Minis around the house didn't, and still don't, and that was annoying. The glaring omission indicated to me that TiVo didn't really care.


----------



## dougdingle

Scott R. Scherr said:


> My Roamio Plus supports CEC and ARC and works great.


Switching to TE4 is too high a price to pay, although I would have considered it if they had also implemented it on the Minis.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

dougdingle said:


> With all the chatter here about Channels, I'll have to check it out. As long as it doesn't require an off-air feed (I have zero off-air here), it might be a good solution to moving away from Spectrum who raised their rates again this month even as they shed subscribers like so much snakeskin.


Channels DVR works with live TV streaming services and also (using HD HomeRun tuner boxes) legacy cable and over-the-air TV. There's a Channels DVR thread here on TCF and a Channels DVR community forum. It's not always possible to get all your local and premium channels via the Channels DVR streaming solution, but you should be able to find info on those issues on their community forum before making a decision, and anyway those services offer their own "cloud DVRs" which may be all you need.


----------



## seanandrsn

Cachelady5 said:


> Hello,
> I am a long time user of Tivo also. I was told by Tivo they don't do that any longer due to licensing rights. We are able to keep those movies on the Hard Drive until we choose to delete them and there are no royalties being paid.
> 
> I started with the Premier HD XL and added an external HD to increase storage space, I believer to 2 TB. At that time I had the software that would allow me to send movies back and forth my PC, they are all saved on there. I am trying to find out how to convert them to MP4's, can you please tell me how to do that? Do I need special software? In reference to the cable card issue, I am with Optimum, I recently purchased the Edge, however, I don't think I have the option to send movies to my PC, can you do it with your Edge? If so can you tell me how? When I got the Edge I called Optimum and they came to install a new cable card. They said they are not discontinuing the cards, not to worry. I don't know about Comcast, why would they? I am using the Edge on a new TV and the old Premier in the bedroom. I have over 200 movies on there I would love to be able to save and stream from my PC to make room on my Tivo's for more recording. If you can't help me can you please tell me who can? I am not that technical but I am trying to learn.
> 
> Thank and I hope


Search Py TiVo - this program allows you to pull media from your TiVo units to your PC or stream media from your PC to your TiVo units. I've been using Py TiVo for years and the developer constantly updates the software. I have all the media I want to save downloaded to a 10 TB external hard drive and use a TiVo bridge device to complete the network connection using my existing coax cable as the network wiring. I can generally transfer a 2 hour movie in about 3 minutes.


----------



## pgenova60

Cachelady5 said:


> Hello,
> I am a long time user of Tivo also. I was told by Tivo they don't do that any longer due to licensing rights. We are able to keep those movies on the Hard Drive until we choose to delete them and there are no royalties being paid.
> 
> I started with the Premier HD XL and added an external HD to increase storage space, I believer to 2 TB. At that time I had the software that would allow me to send movies back and forth my PC, they are all saved on there. I am trying to find out how to convert them to MP4's, can you please tell me how to do that? Do I need special software? In reference to the cable card issue, I am with Optimum, I recently purchased the Edge, however, I don't think I have the option to send movies to my PC, can you do it with your Edge? If so can you tell me how? When I got the Edge I called Optimum and they came to install a new cable card. They said they are not discontinuing the cards, not to worry. I don't know about Comcast, why would they? I am using the Edge on a new TV and the old Premier in the bedroom. I have over 200 movies on there I would love to be able to save and stream from my PC to make room on my Tivo's for more recording. If you can't help me can you please tell me who can? I am not that technical but I am trying to learn.
> 
> Thank and I hope


Tivo discontinued their Tivotogo application years ago. However there are many shareware programs that will do the same thing. Kmttg is an excellent program which will also make mp4 files.


----------



## dadrepus

pgenova60 said:


> Tivo discontinued their Tivotogo application years ago. However there are many shareware programs that will do the same thing. Kmttg is an excellent program which will also make mp4 files.


Yes but McBride has abandoned updating (which I don't blame him) Kmttg. So, it works as long as it works, and it still does for me but I also used cTiVo, specifically used for Mac. It is less detailed but still usable. Truthfully, I haven't used either for a while. Since we gave up cable and just use an antenna, mostly for a few shows my wife likes, I mostly spend time filling my Plex server with on-line content,


----------



## roy999

Cachelady5 said:


> Hello,
> I am a long time user of Tivo also. I was told by Tivo they don't do that any longer due to licensing rights. We are able to keep those movies on the Hard Drive until we choose to delete them and there are no royalties being paid.
> 
> I started with the Premier HD XL and added an external HD to increase storage space, I believer to 2 TB. At that time I had the software that would allow me to send movies back and forth my PC, they are all saved on there. I am trying to find out how to convert them to MP4's, can you please tell me how to do that? Do I need special software? In reference to the cable card issue, I am with Optimum, I recently purchased the Edge, however, I don't think I have the option to send movies to my PC, can you do it with your Edge? If so can you tell me how? When I got the Edge I called Optimum and they came to install a new cable card. They said they are not discontinuing the cards, not to worry. I don't know about Comcast, why would they? I am using the Edge on a new TV and the old Premier in the bedroom. I have over 200 movies on there I would love to be able to save and stream from my PC to make room on my Tivo's for more recording. If you can't help me can you please tell me who can? I am not that technical but I am trying to learn.
> 
> Thank and I hope


Have you tried pytivo. They allow movies to be moved from a tivo to PC hard disk. They do allow to transfer back to Tivo. However you can by a cheap PC and use that to play movies on your TV. 

Until very recently I was able to move movies from my PC to my tivo. However that has stopped working. I guess this is the sort of things that happen when companies like Comcast are allowed to have monopolies with little government oversite.


----------



## dougdingle

roy999 said:


> Have you tried pytivo. They allow movies to be moved from a tivo to PC hard disk. They do allow to transfer back to Tivo. However you can by a cheap PC and use that to play movies on your TV.
> 
> Until very recently I was able to move movies from my PC to my tivo. However that has stopped working. I guess this is the sort of things that happen when companies like Comcast are allowed to have monopolies with little government oversite.


Actually, it's the media companies who have demanded that cablecos and satellite services set the "DO NOT COPY" bit on content. It continues to be 'illegal' to set that bit on content that's also available via antenna, but that's it. Everything that's on cable besides locals can and have set that bit on Spectrum, for instance.


----------



## nrc

Fofer said:


> The death of cablecards was an indicator of TiVo's future, but for me, the absolutely awful "support" for streaming services is where TiVo really failed.


Absolutely. Once the FCC got on board with the cable industry position that OTT was providing the competition that the cable card regulations were intended to create, it was going to be a slow death for cable cards and anything relying on it. The Echostar court decision just sealed it.

But I think that was really just their last stand after their main strategy of forcing their way into cable company relationships with lawsuits failed to produce any real winners. They tried to use their patents to force themselves into becoming a major player in the cable market. But that almost never produced anything more than halfhearted efforts that were poorly supported.

I think it's because TiVo was so focused on cable companies that they were slow and half-hearted in their approach to streaming services. They could not afford to threaten the cable companies by providing alternatives to their content. With a little more vision TiVo could have become Roku.

It's a shame, because even though I'm happy to save some money with OTT services for most of our content, TiVo still has no equal when it comes to video trick play for sports. I still use OTA and TiVo for sports wherever possible. I'd give my eye teeth for crystal clear frame by frame or slow motion on NFL Game Pass.


----------



## dgoto

Cachelady5 said:


> Hello,
> I am a long time user of Tivo also. I was told by Tivo they don't do that any longer due to licensing rights. We are able to keep those movies on the Hard Drive until we choose to delete them and there are no royalties being paid.
> 
> I started with the Premier HD XL and added an external HD to increase storage space, I believer to 2 TB. At that time I had the software that would allow me to send movies back and forth my PC, they are all saved on there. I am trying to find out how to convert them to MP4's, can you please tell me how to do that? Do I need special software? In reference to the cable card issue, I am with Optimum, I recently purchased the Edge, however, I don't think I have the option to send movies to my PC, can you do it with your Edge? If so can you tell me how? When I got the Edge I called Optimum and they came to install a new cable card. They said they are not discontinuing the cards, not to worry. I don't know about Comcast, why would they? I am using the Edge on a new TV and the old Premier in the bedroom. I have over 200 movies on there I would love to be able to save and stream from my PC to make room on my Tivo's for more recording. If you can't help me can you please tell me who can? I am not that technical but I am trying to learn.
> 
> Thank and I hope


There a few programs which can convert TiVo formatted files to mp4 such as this How to Convert TIVO to MP4 for Free?


----------



## dgoto

LeeinSF said:


> I ordered a new Edge and enchanted a similar problem with Comcast in SF. The store was out of Cable Cards. they sent me one, no shipping costs, but it ended up being the wrong cable card. I contacted Customer Service and they were preparing to send me a correct one, but charge for shipping. I mentioned this was their error, and they waved the shipping fee. I received my new cable card and it works fine.


I was lucky enough to escalate my cable card concerns at Comcast and they sent me a “Brand New” cable card and it works great. The ones I would find in the stores were always beaten up well worn card.


----------



## JackF

dougdingle said:


> What they are saying is that once you buy lifetime service, you are no longer a revenue stream to TiVo but they still have to keep your device up to date, allow daily logins on their server, and must continue to send guide updates daily.
> 
> You are now an expense.
> 
> I've often wondered about that, and how it affects things like a large number of original Minis just suddenly failing all at once - two here in the space of a month, and lots of other posts from people whose Minis just suddenly died.
> 
> After having been a TiVo client for about 20 years starting with the original Series 1, the current Roamio Pro and four Minis here are the last gasp. When the Roamio dies, I'm done with cable and TiVo.
> 
> Among other reasons, the required Tuning Adapter for using TiVo with Spectrum and a cable card has proven to be an ongoing years long nightmare. When Spectrum changed the channel routing assignments, as they regularly do in SDV systems, they used to send a reboot command to the TA so it could update its routing table. Now they don't bother. When they change the table routing assignments, what happens now is that those channels subject to SDV now just stop working. You have to notice this yourself when you discover shows have not recorded because "The channel wasn't available" and you have to power cycle the TA yourself. This is in what is likely one of Spectrum's top three markets in the U.S.
> 
> Just too much nonsense for 2022. If I had any off-air signals here (which I don't), I would have abandoned the system five years ago.


Amen, Brother regarding Spectrum and the TA. After the umpteenth time of them not being able to correct the problem, insisting that a technician needed to come to my apartment, I said 'eff 'em and cut the cord last month. My TiVO holds about 3 dozen films I like to watch from time to time. People would complain about Time Warner but Spectrum is far worse an outfit. I'm sure they even pay my landlord money to keep FIOS out of the building though the service has been in my neighborhood for two years.


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## elorimer

pgenova60 said:


> Kmttg is an excellent program which will also make mp4 files.


Do we have any word on what happens when the certificate expires in December?


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## dougdingle

elorimer said:


> Do we have any word on what happens when the certificate expires in December?


If I remember correctly, what killed TiVo Desktop Pro was TiVo letting the certificate expire. 

I am proceeding with my plans on the basis that by the beginning of 2023, I will no longer be using TiVo except to play back material already recorded, and will have dumped Spectrum except for their overpriced Internet.


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## samsauce29

dougdingle said:


> If I remember correctly, what killed TiVo Desktop Pro was TiVo letting the certificate expire.
> 
> I am proceeding with my plans on the basis that by the beginning of 2023, I will no longer be using TiVo except to play back material already recorded, and will have dumped Spectrum except for their overpriced Internet.


I was on approach to your plan two weeks ago. Called Spectrum, hit the cancel option, and was offered the new customer deal (including 400 meg Internet Ultra) for another year. We have no real competition here, so was quite surprised at the offer and took it.

When they stop giving the deal or stop supporting cable cards, I'll be happy to convert my Bolt to OTA and drop Spectrum TV.


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## Fofer

dougdingle said:


> If I remember correctly, what killed TiVo Desktop Pro was TiVo letting the certificate expire.


And we’re here wondering if it’s the state of _cable cards_ that’s put TiVo’s “future in doubt?” Lol!


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## Pokemon_Dad

Yeah, let's be clear here: _TiVo_ put TiVo's future in doubt.


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## Fofer

And let’s also be clear: it’s “future” isn’t actually in doubt. There is no future for TiVo. There will be no new features for legacy TiVo hardware. It’s capabilities will continue to shrink. TiVo will eventually stop selling the Stream stick, and will sell off their remaining business assets to an advertising company or similar…


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## zalusky

Tivo reminds me of the @home internet company that Comcast in the early days as an ISP. At a certain point Comcast said we can do that and kicked them to the curb and @home eventually went under.
Essentially this has happened with settop boxes. Comcast decided they wanted control of the user experience to force ads and navigation to only their products. Now that cable cards are no longer mandated poof.
On the other side of the coin the content providers write their own apps on the various platforms and that leaves out another revenue model for Tivo. There is nothing left for them hence the lack of investment.


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## seanandrsn

dougdingle said:


> If cable cards disappear, TiVo will only have off-air models to sell. They'll be closed and dead in a year maximum after that.


They do have a stream device that they are pushing heavily to get people to buy in. I've been tempted to try it but I have so many other devices that I just don't want to but one more to have to manage. 

SA


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## mhalladay

Fofer said:


> The death of cablecards was an indicator of TiVo's future, but for me, the absolutely awful "support" for streaming services is where TiVo really failed. Spectrum's move to Switched Digital Video introduced a new pain point too. Then without universal support for HDMI-CEC (i.e. on Minis,) TiVo's boxes just became unwieldy and annoying to switch inputs for. I want a consistent UX on all screens, large and small, and I don't want to have to involve universal remotes everywhere just to make up for TiVo's lame shortcomings. TiVo's pivot to the Stream 4K unit could have worked if it also streamed from "legacy" TiVo hardware, but of course they couldn't pull that off, they just defaulted to streaming Sling TV instead, so what's the point?
> 
> I've always wanted the freedom and flexibility to watch anything, anywhere, whenever, without TiVo or Spectrum getting in the way. After 20 years of TiVo loyalty I finally had to bail. I switched to Channels DVR two years ago and it has improved the overall TV experience in my household by many orders of magnitude. Having everything I'd want to watch, live or recorded, local or streaming, on one device (AppleTV 4K in my case) and one TV input, has been a game-changer. Extending that same access, live and recorded TV, elegantly and easily to any computer or mobile device in the world has been a dream come true. Recordings are standard MP4 files, with all the ease and flexibility that entails. Channels DVR vastly improved the way I interact with this content when I travel. Saved me money too. My only regret is not doing it 5+ years earlier, when I first started hearing about it.


Quick question re/ Channels DVR: last time I researched things, neither Channels nor Plex would record 'protected' channels from my CableCard-equipped HomeRun Duo. Have you found that Channels can record / playback protected content?


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## Pokemon_Dad

mhalladay said:


> Quick question re/ Channels DVR: last time I researched things, neither Channels nor Plex would record 'protected' channels from my CableCard-equipped HomeRun Duo. Have you found that Channels can record / playback protected content?


No, and that's not likely to ever happen. Lucky for me Xfinity does not protect most channels, and I don't subscribe to premium channels. There's usually no such luck if you're a Spectrum subscriber.

However the Channels DVR solution for TV Everywhere, which accesses cable companies' live TV streaming services (and other OTT live TV like YouTube TV) may allow you to access more channels. See the "Provider" threads for each company in the Channels Community forum.

There is a Channels DVR thread here on TCF: https://www.tivocommunity.com/threads/channels-dvr.584214/


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## Fofer

seanandrsn said:


> They do have a stream device that they are pushing heavily to get people to buy in. I've been tempted to try it but I have so many other devices that I just don't want to but one more to have to manage.
> 
> SA


If they’d followed through on their old promise to release a tvOS and Android client that could stream from legacy TiVo hardware, they could have had a chance. I’d still be using TiVo in conjunction with AppleTV, all content available on one device, with a TiVo “server” behind the scenes as the DVR.

Instead their new 4K streaming stick starts all over again, and expects their customers to switch to Sling TV instead. No thanks.


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## tommeboy23

Xfinity in Chicago has worked flawlessly for 10+ years now using cable cards. I can even re-pair my equipment online by myself which is great. But when I got my Dad a TIVO in Florida using Spectrum, it became a nightmare that never ended. Every month his cable card would unpair, and 3-4 service visits to fix, and relentless push back by Spectrum to not support. Installers continually complain they don't know how to support TIVOs and "switch to our equipment and you won't have these issues" It was so brutal my Dad finally just gave up

The death of cable cards in TIVOs will likely come .. but it won't be from the equipment or demand for TIVO products, it will be from Cable providers making the user experience so miserable, people will just give up.


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## kolohe

tommeboy23 said:


> Xfinity in Chicago has worked flawlessly for 10+ years now using cable cards. I can even re-pair my equipment online by myself which is great. But when I got my Dad a TIVO in Florida using Spectrum, it became a nightmare that never ended. Every month his cable card would unpair, and 3-4 service visits to fix, and relentless push back by Spectrum to not support. Installers continually complain they don't know how to support TIVOs and "switch to our equipment and you won't have these issues" It was so brutal my Dad finally just gave up
> 
> The death of cable cards in TIVOs will likely come .. but it won't be from the equipment or demand for TIVO products, it will be from Cable providers making the user experience so miserable, people will just give up.


Interesting. I live in southern Oregon and Spectrum is our provider. There was a time when the techs would hassle me about having a TiVo but that hasn't happened in a long, long time. I have more problems with the tuning adapter (it's been a while, but....) and have always been able to get that resolved with a phone call.

In a month or so, we're moving to Comcast territory. I plan on keeping the TiVo, but I'm going to add their X1 box. My wife watches a lot of stuff on YouTube and TiVo's app would have to improve dramatically to rise to the level of total crap. Maybe the Comcast box will be better for this. We'll see.


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## TiVotion

I’m a recent convert to Channels DVR after 20 years with TiVo. My cable bill for TV, internet and phone was $220 a month. I got YouTube TV now for $74 and 500/500 internet with Frontier for $45 (they even gave me new customer pricing despite having them for years.) I dropped the home phone because I get nothing but spam calls on it. I will use a Google Voice number to take care of having a second line.

I had bought a HD HomeRun DVR previously and connected 46 OTA channels to it. Now I have that, plus YouTube TV, Pluto, Stirr, FrndlyTV, and Samsung TV and PlayOn Cloud as sources in Channels DVR. I have more sources for content now than I could ever watch in two lifetimes. I previously had all the other major streaming services and as mentioned I can download content from them from PlayOn directly into Channels. 

The whole thing runs off a dedicated Raspberry Pi 4 8GB and 6TB WD MyBook external hard drive with additional local content feeding into my Channels library from a QNAP NAS. 

I really hated saying goodbye to TiVo, but this is taking care of my every need for content and I’m quite happy with it. It takes a little time to get the whole thing set up and configured like you want it, but not as much as you would think. Once you do, it’s pretty much automated.

Ironically, as soon as I canceled my Frontier service and reconfigured it, I got a notification they were sending me a package. I assumed it was a new router since they had put me in with new customer pricing, but of all things they sent me… another cable card. Extra ironic because they told me to keep their cable box DVR and my cable cards because they didn’t want any of them back.


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## dougdingle

TiVotion said:


> Ironically, as soon as I canceled my Frontier service and reconfigured it, I got a notification they were sending me a package. I assumed it was a new router since they had put me in with new customer pricing, but of all things they sent me… another cable card. Extra ironic because they told me to keep their cable box DVR and my cable cards because they didn’t want any of them back.


That is really interesting. Sounds like they may be rolling out a new configuration that doesn't depend on cable boxes.


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## DCM87

LeeinSF said:


> I ordered a new Edge and enchanted a similar problem with Comcast in SF. The store was out of Cable Cards. they sent me one, no shipping costs, but it ended up being the wrong cable card. I contacted Customer Service and they were preparing to send me a correct one, but charge for shipping. I mentioned this was their error, and they waved the shipping fee. I received my new cable card and it works fine.


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## DCM87

Cable cards still work just fine, but the cable company knowledge is hit or miss depending on your city. I had one that knew all about and the installation took 10 minutes, while another company had no clue what I was talking about. Cable card, what's that? Just have them send it to you, install the cards and call CS to give them the numbers on back of cable card. Easy as that, but this is after you have the cable installed of course. You then take the POS cable box back to the company so they stop charging you for it. The cable card costs me $1.50/month in 2022. This is all with Comcast. If you want the worker come to your home, make sure you tell the CS rep to make certain he knows about cable cards. TiVo is still the best and unless you are going to cut the cord, the Lifetime fee pays for itself in about 3 years. I got a deal in 2017 to switch my Lifetime service to the new Bolt for $99 and $399 for the 3TB HD model. Instead of $1049, it $498. Great deal, but you must add the TiVo emails to your email app, because they rarely do that deal. Maybe 2-3x in ten years. By the way, if anybody needs their TiVo fixed (HD goes out usual suspect) go to Weaknees.com. They are honest and won't sell you the junk 2.5" mobile HD, when the TiVo needs the 3.5" desktop HD. That's why TiVo got rid of the 3TB HD. Mine broke after 4+ years. Weaknees.com took care of me with an 3TB External HD and transferred all my info, which will last 10 years if you so choose. 

I just hear TiVo just came out with software that enables you to roll back that v.4 junk advertisement laden front end which was not FF back to the v.3. Thanks TiVo for realizing we paid you $1000 to not see commercials.


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## Fofer

Fofer said:


> The death of cablecards was an indicator of TiVo's future, but for me, the absolutely awful "support" for streaming services is where TiVo really failed. Spectrum's move to Switched Digital Video introduced a new pain point too. Then without universal support for HDMI-CEC (i.e. on Minis,) TiVo's boxes just became unwieldy and annoying to switch inputs for.


Since it's been two years, I completely forgot about some of the absolute biggest annoyances. Maybe I blocked them from memory.
How could I not mention... the pre-roll ads? That would often crash our boxes? Then we heard through the grapevine, that we could "opt out" from that crap but we had to opt out frequently because the pre-roll ads, the ones that would often crash our boxes, would return after every software update.

I also remember the absolute dumpster fire that was TiVo+, how ugly the ads for it were in the guide. And how attempting to access it would crash my TiVo Mini. This went on for months. Absolutely pathetic.

No, it wasn't cable cards' fault.



Pokemon_Dad said:


> Yeah, let's be clear here: _TiVo_ put TiVo's future in doubt.


^ Truth.


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## James Shaheen

Fofer said:


> The death of cablecards was an indicator of TiVo's future, but for me, the absolutely awful "support" for streaming services is where TiVo really failed. Spectrum's move to Switched Digital Video introduced a new pain point too. Then without universal support for HDMI-CEC (i.e. on Minis,) TiVo's boxes just became unwieldy and annoying to switch inputs for. I want a consistent UX on all screens, large and small, and I don't want to have to involve universal remotes everywhere just to make up for TiVo's lame shortcomings. TiVo's pivot to the Stream 4K unit could have worked if it also streamed from "legacy" TiVo hardware, but of course they couldn't pull that off, they just defaulted to streaming Sling TV instead, so what's the point?
> 
> I've always wanted the freedom and flexibility to watch anything, anywhere, whenever, without TiVo or Spectrum getting in the way. After 20 years of TiVo loyalty I finally had to bail. I switched to Channels DVR two years ago and it has improved the overall TV experience in my household by many orders of magnitude. Having everything I'd want to watch, live or recorded, local or streaming, on one device (AppleTV 4K in my case) and one TV input, has been a game-changer. Extending that same access, live and recorded TV, elegantly and easily to any computer or mobile device in the world has been a dream come true. Recordings are standard MP4 files, with all the ease and flexibility that entails. Channels DVR vastly improved the way I interact with this content when I travel. Saved me money too. My only regret is not doing it 5+ years earlier, when I first started hearing about it.


What do you use as your TV tuner for your Channels DVR? Do you have subscription-based cable requiring cable card?


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## Fofer

I have an HDHR Flex and antenna which gets me my local OTA channels. I also linked up Fubo TV for more channels via TV Everywhere (most locals included.) And I added all of the channels from Pluto, Stirr, Samsung TV+, Plex TV, Roku, DistroTV, and some others as “Custom Channels.” Everything records without DRM and everything gets scanned for commercial skipping. I also sync it with my recordings from PlayOn Cloud.

I cancelled my Spectrum TV subscription and have access to more channels than I ever did before.


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## Old Roamio 0

With Channels DVR, there may be an extra expense or two. One needs: The hard drive to store the DVR output. And the computer or device to run the software.


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## zalusky

Old Roamio 0 said:


> With Channels DVR, there may be an extra expense or two. One needs: The hard drive to store the DVR output. And the computer or device to run the software.


Yea but you don't need to pay rental for all your TVs.


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## Fofer

I have it running on the iMac desktop I already had. It runs in the background, and I don't even notice it.


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## Cachelady5

pgenova60 said:


> Tivo discontinued their Tivotogo application years ago. However there are many shareware programs that will do the same thing. Kmttg is an excellent program which will also make mp4 files.


Thank you!


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## Cachelady5

roy999 said:


> Have you tried pytivo. They allow movies to be moved from a tivo to PC hard disk. They do allow to transfer back to Tivo. However you can by a cheap PC and use that to play movies on your TV.
> 
> Until very recently I was able to move movies from my PC to my tivo. However that has stopped working. I guess this is the sort of things that happen when companies like Comcast are allowed to have monopolies with little government oversite.


I am not very technical but I will try! Thanks for the help!


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## Cachelady5

roy999 said:


> Have you tried pytivo. They allow movies to be moved from a tivo to PC hard disk. They do allow to transfer back to Tivo. However you can by a cheap PC and use that to play movies on your TV.
> 
> Until very recently I was able to move movies from my PC to my tivo. However that has stopped working. I guess this is the sort of things that happen when companies like Comcast are allowed to have monopolies with little government oversite.


Thank you, I will try that!


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## seanandrsn

roy999 said:


> Have you tried pytivo. They allow movies to be moved from a tivo to PC hard disk. They do allow to transfer back to Tivo. However you can by a cheap PC and use that to play movies on your TV.
> 
> Until very recently I was able to move movies from my PC to my tivo. However that has stopped working. I guess this is the sort of things that happen when companies like Comcast are allowed to have monopolies with little government oversite.


@roy999 you may want to check for an update on PyTivo. I use PyTivo almost daily and I have no issues transferring files to and from my computer. The PyTivo Desktop software is very easy to use once you have all everything setup.


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## tommeboy23

I've tried PyTivo off and on for about 10 years hoping it would become more than it has, and always disappointed.
Clunky setup, dated drivers and for me, 90% of the shows don't transfer or are considered copyrighted .. so why even bother.
I gave up using it


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## dianebrat

tommeboy23 said:


> I've tried PyTivo off and on for about 10 years hoping it would become more than it has, and always disappointed.
> Clunky setup, dated drivers and for me, 90% of the shows don't transfer or are considered copyrighted .. so why even bother.
> I gave up using it


It's all dependent on what you expect it to do.
PyTivo Desktop has been a fantastic backup method for me, and not all providers lock down 90% of their channels, my Verizon FiOS install has 6 protected channels out of what has to be around 300+ in HD.


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## slowbiscuit

PyTivo is awesome, works great and very easy to use with Dan's version here.


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## dougdingle

dianebrat said:


> It's all dependent on what you expect it to do.
> PyTivo Desktop has been a fantastic backup method for me, and not all providers lock down 90% of their channels, my Verizon FiOS install has 6 protected channels out of what has to be around 300+ in HD.


Yeah. You're lucky. 

For a brief time, Spectrum L.A. locked down ALL channels, including the broadcast ones (which is illegal). I filed a complaint with the FCC, and shortly after they unlocked the broadcast channels, but that's it.


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## dianebrat

dougdingle said:


> Yeah. You're lucky.
> 
> For a brief time, Spectrum L.A. locked down ALL channels, including the broadcast ones (which is illegal). I filed a complaint with the FCC, and shortly after they unlocked the broadcast channels, but that's it.


And this is why Cable provider monopolies are bad for everyone.


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## Reryro

dougdingle said:


> Yeah. You're lucky.
> 
> For a brief time, Spectrum L.A. locked down ALL channels, including the broadcast ones (which is illegal). I filed a complaint with the FCC, and shortly after they unlocked the broadcast channels, but that's it.


I've always wondered -- what's their motive for locking down the channels? How does that benefit them any? I just don't get why they care...


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## dougdingle

Reryro said:


> I've always wondered -- what's their motive for locking down the channels? How does that benefit them any? I just don't get why they care...


It's not the cablecos, it's the content owners. Cablecos don't care either way.

Some basic cable channels don't want their content recorded/distributed anywhere they haven't authorized, and some don't care. Many cablecos made it clear after the concept started that with several hundred channels they were unwilling to keep track of which is which, and once the requests to turn on the "Do not Copy" bit started, they were going to just set the bit on all the channels except broadcast, where they are prohibited from doing so by FCC regs.

Premium channels like HBO etc. always had the no copy flag set. They don't want their movies easily copied and distributed.


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## Reryro

dougdingle said:


> It's not the cablecos, it's the content owners. Cablecos don't care either way.
> 
> Some basic cable channels don't want their content recorded/distributed anywhere they haven't authorized, and some don't care. Many cablecos made it clear after the concept started that with several hundred channels they were unwilling to keep track of which is which, and once the requests to turn on the "Do not Copy" bit started, they were going to just set the bit on all the channels except broadcast, where they are prohibited from doing so by FCC regs.
> 
> Premium channels like HBO etc. always had the no copy flag set. They don't want their movies easily copied and distributed.


Gotcha. So, it's the hassle of figuring out which to protect vs. the ease of just protecting all. Makes sense.


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