# Making the switch to HR20



## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

Forgive the long post. I've been absent from posting around here for quite awhile. Even though I visit every day, among other AVS sites, I didn't have any other DirecTV alternative to Tivo and was dealing with things as they were.

Forget waiting on 6.3 for the HR10-250. As soon as I read on "the other forum" that I can hook up a big fat drive via eSATA to an HR20 without having to hack anything, I couldn't resist and made the call to retention! Not that I have a problem with the hacking. I've upgraded UTV's and Tivo's myself without a hitch.

(Background)
I've been a DirecTV customer for more than 5 years, no sports packages, usually just one premium. I've heard of people getting the HR20 for just shipping and handling, but I didn't want to play CSR roulette. So, when the rep offered a good deal for the HR20's and getting to keep the HR10-250's, I made the switch.

(I'm going to sell the HR10-250's after install to recoup the cost of the HR20's. Any takers, preferably in the DFW area, if so PM me? I met someone via AVS in a safe parking lot locally to sell my UTV's a few years ago. He might still be on this forum. Heck of a lot easier than shipping or EBay taking a cut. My install of the HR20's is October 21, so the Tivo's are for sale within a week after. Gotta clear them up first.)

I know this is a Tivo forum, so if I offend Tivo Fanatics in the rest of this post it isn't personal, but I'm very happy to be free of Tivo. Well, not completely for the household, but for me anyway. The wife is keeping the third SD DTivo for all her SD reality crap.  I don't care for what I've heard of the R15. We'll keep the capacity upgraded SD DTivo until it dies.

From everything I've been reading, the HR20 is shaping up to give me back important things I lost in the switch from UTV and even more in the way of new functionality. I'm willing to live with the software growing pains, I've done it with every other DVR, be it UTV or Tivo. My biggest gripe about Tivo, besides the slowness of the UI, has been the simplest of all for Tivo to fix. A dang free space indicator!!!!! Imagine this scenario... Since you're reading this it means you're on a computer. What if your OS only let you know how much free space you had on your hard drives by creating random files and you having to count all of those up??? You'd be irate, so where has the company or for that matter the Tivo community been on this all these years?

I have NEVER cared about suggestions. It has pissed me off to no end since leaving UTV, that I have to count how many pages of suggestions I have, just to get a rough estimate of my available free space!!! Why oh why did Tivo leave this feature off all these years??? It's just plain stupid.

I look forward to the future development of the HR20 and say good goodbye to Tivo. That having been said, I'll be lurking around here for the foreseeable future, since I will continue to own a SD Tivo, but after my install October 21st I'll be spending most of my time on "the other forum". Peace out and thanks to any and all I may have ever asked a Tivo question of in the past!!!


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## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

Not to start an old flame war up, but I agree on the free space issue. One of my HR10s has 800 GB, and that one's fine, f it. The other is stock, and I have suggestions turned on that one so I can tell when it's getting full. I know all the 'reasons' why they don't wanna... SD and HD shows are different length, wah, wah. So, sheesh, if *we* want to turn the free space indicator on, *we* can interpret xxx GB as we want to.

Nuff said. And I've never heard a good reason for the lack. I guess the rational is that Tivo users are like early Apple users and can't figure what xxx GB may mean.  My R15s all have a nice little bar graph that say where the heck you are in disk usage, and it appears (my bad if not) that the HR20s do the same.


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## cstelter (Mar 18, 2002)

leesweet said:


> Nuff said. And I've never heard a good reason for the lack. I guess the rational is that Tivo users are like early Apple users and can't figure what xxx GB may mean.  My R15s all have a nice little bar graph that say where the heck you are in disk usage, and it appears (my bad if not) that the HR20s do the same.


I've never missed a free space indicator. I think I'd like a 'days til delete' and a 'days til full' indicator though.

I care about 2 things

If I care about watching a show, I don't want it to delete from Now Playing before I watch it
If I care about watching a show, I want to know that it will record in the future.

That's it. I don't see how a free space indicator helps me with those two cares without me having to do a bunch of math in my head and guestimating of program size, etc. The TiVo has a number of features in it though that help me deal with the two items above-- If I go in recording history and look forward and see a show I care about is not going to record, I can check why and if it says the disk will be full, then I know I need to do some clean up.

If I look through Now Playing and see a yellow ! icon on a show I care about, I can tell it to keep for another X days and if I'm running short on space, it will tell me that something else will delete early or not record at all.

The deal though is that I have yellow !'s in my Now playing that have been there for months. It's a pain to always update the Keep until on those when odd are good that they'll be there for another month. But all it takes is a marathon of some HD show that you have keep at most:all, and all those yellow !'s will disappear.

That's why I'd love to see '7 days til delete, 12 days til full' indicator. I could quickly glance at that and not have to page through recording history and not have to constantly update keep-until. I could look at that indicator and know I don't have to do anything for at least 7 days. The 'days til delete' estimates when yellow !'s are going to start disappearing and the 'Days till full' is when the unit estimates it will be too full to record a show it would otherwise record. I think these two numbers must be available-- especially the second because this already shows up in recording history if a show is not going to record because the unit will likely be full.

Free Space indicator? No thanks. Days Til Delete and Days Til Full? Oh yeah.


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

deepthinker said:


> I have NEVER cared about suggestions. It has pissed me off to no end since leaving UTV, that I have to count how many pages of suggestions I have, just to get a rough estimate of my available free space!!!


As a current UTV owner (it still works). I really want the HR20 as I have never had dual buffers or suggestions. I want something that will record in HD, have OTA and just work! The wife is the biggest factor right know (plus no OTA yet). I would be interested in hearing how you like it compared to UTV. I have been reading over at DBSTALK but have not found a good head to head review yet.

Good luck with the HR20.... I may be joining you shortly.


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## DDayDawg (Jul 13, 2004)

I can see why people who hack and have extensive computer knowledge would want a free space indicator, but the TiVo was designed to be a consumer electronic device. Would I look at free disk space? Sure I would. Would my parents? Not a chance. The vast majority of people don't give a flip about that tiny issue.

I just couldn't imagine not having dual buffers and wishlists. I use both extensively. I guess it's all in what you are used to.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

deepthinker said:


> (I'm going to sell the HR10-250's after install to recoup the cost of the HR20's. Any takers, preferably in the DFW area, if so PM me?)


Ooooh...I'd seriously reconsider that approach.

Keep in mind you're dealing with new technology and it might take awhile for the stability to come.

I kept the HR10 for "mission critical" recordings until I'm 100% convinced about the HR20. If you're married, you might consider keeping the HR10 and assigning it for your wife's recordings in the interested of continued wedded bliss.

I look at it this way, there's no such thing as too many HD DVRs.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Now I've seen it all.

Someone hating a complete set of software and leaving because of one item that doesn't make it more reliable or affect the usage of the software.

I am in favor a free space indicator but to want to jump to something else just because of it seems a bit extreme.

Oh well, whatever floats your boat.

And to reh, you just described the HR10. OTA and HD and just works.

LOL!


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

DDayDawg said:


> I can see why people who hack and have extensive computer knowledge would want a free space indicator, but the TiVo was designed to be a consumer electronic device. Would I look at free disk space? Sure I would. Would my parents? Not a chance. The vast majority of people don't give a flip about that tiny issue.


On the HR20 the Free Space Indicator is on the List page (equivalent of "Now Playing"). It's not hidden or incomprehensible. When your parents went to play something, your father could turn to your mother and say, "Look dear, those 3 shows we recorded left us with 85% capacity free".

With the fact that HD shows take up a lot more space, I find this feature indispensable and I can't figure out why TiVo doesn't feel the same.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

At some point there won't be a choice anyway. If you want to record HD off DirecTV you will *have* to get an HR20 or whatever the newest HD DVR box is at that time. Everyone will switch eventually or leave DirecTV. I wouldn't switch from the HR10 right now unless you want to get channels in MPEG4 or you just like the HR20 interface. But at some point you'll have to choose the HR20 or leave DirecTV (or have both).


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## cstelter (Mar 18, 2002)

bidger said:


> On the HR20 the Free Space Indicator is on the List page (equivalent of "Now Playing"). It's not hidden or incomprehensible. When your parents went to play something, your father could turn to your mother and say, "Look dear, those 3 shows we recorded left us with 85% capacity free".
> 
> With the fact that HD shows take up a lot more space, I find this feature indispensable and I can't figure out why TiVo doesn't feel the same.


What does the indicator tell you directly? Does it tell you you are about to miss a show you care about? Does it tell you that a show you care about is about to be deleted? What precisely does the indicator convey to you that is immediately useful?

I'm convinced there is useful information to be had about disk space, but I don't think a free space indicator conveys the useful information. I think the scheduler knows what you really want and the scheduler should interpret free space and tell us what is *really* important. Current disk space usage is *NOT* important. Expected future usage is what it's all about, and a free space indicator is only useful when it's coupled with your human mind and what it remembers putting in the To Do List.

I refuse to ask for a feature that simply presents a meaningless stat in the absense of any other data. What good is free space indication if you don't know how many programs are about to be recorded? A computer has no idea what you may be downloading today or tomorrow, so Free disk space is useful because you couple it with what you think you'll be doing in the next day/week/month/year. But nothing is going to go on your DVR without being scheduled. The scheduler needs to konw free space, not you.

IMO, folks wanting a free space indicator are asking for a workaround hack instead of a real useful feature. Let me know how many days it will be until the box thinks it's going to have to start deleting shows to record new ones, and tell me how many days it is until it won't be able to record a requested show because there will be no space left. If you only had those two bits of information, why would you need to know the amount of free space you have *today*?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bidger said:


> On the HR20 the Free Space Indicator is on the List page (equivalent of "Now Playing"). It's not hidden or incomprehensible. When your parents went to play something, your father could turn to your mother and say, "Look dear, those 3 shows we recorded left us with 85% capacity free".
> 
> With the fact that HD shows take up a lot more space, I find this feature indispensable and I can't figure out why TiVo doesn't feel the same.


Okay. I would like one but I don't consider it indispensable.

I have one on my cable dvr (SA8300HD) and there I consider it important because the logic on that box stinks to high heaven.

But the Tivo boxes will let you know if something won't fit. The box is doing the calculations FOR you. You don't have to say, gee, I wonder if I can fit the Young and the Restless on the Tivo this week. It will tell you if it has to delete things before their expiration date.

The logic of the Tivo is that good.

Sure, I'd still like one but it is not the end of the world unless your DVR is nothing more than a glorified VCR (like the SA8300 or the Moto box).


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Now I've seen it all.
> 
> Someone hating a complete set of software and leaving because of one item that doesn't make it more reliable or affect the usage of the software.
> 
> ...


Leaving for a free space indicator isn't the ONLY reason I'm making the switch. It's just something I chose to rant about that has always pissed me off. I like the idea of getting the MPEG4 locals. One of the coolest new features of course is hooking up a big fat drive via eSATA and "the other forum" shows that it works.

The slowness of Tivo's has always pissed me and the wife off. Even with 6.2 on the SD's units it's still slower than the UTV's ever were. I know you can never convince a Tivo fanatic, but the wife and I still believe to this day that the UTV's were better than Tivo and hate Microsoft for giving up on the platform. I know people still use them, but we made the jump to HD and only Tivo did it at the time. The HR20 seems to have a lot of similarities to the old UTV, so that is another decision maker.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Fine, then don't write your real reasons not the silly disk free indicator nonsense.



I eventually will switch, too, but after the HR20 bugs are worked out (and when they have nationals that run MPEG4).

At that time, I may get a tivo for cable but they are too expensive now. But that will depend on what the HR20 looks like at that time. Right now I get all my local HD OTA and don't care about the MPEG4 locals and prefer the stability and logic of the TiVo. (And the dual tuners!).

Oh, and 6.3a makes the Tivo pretty damned fast.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

deepthinker said:


> "the other forum" shows that it works.


Are you referring to www.dbstalk.com (which is the sister site to this one).

Or the "other forum" who's name can't be typed here....


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Are you referring to www.dbstalk.com (which is the sister site to this one).
> 
> Or the "other forum" who's name can't be typed here....


DBSTalk, just used that way to mention it, because I've seen so many other posts of people going off about mentioning DBSTalk and the HR20. I've seen your post defending the fact that it's a sister site in the AVS family. Mainly used it to be funny and keep from getting flamed by the fanatics.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

deepthinker said:


> DBSTalk, just used that way to mention it, because I've seen so many other posts of people going off about mentioning DBSTalk and the HR20. I've seen your post defending the fact that it's a sister site in the AVS family. Mainly used it to be funny and keep from getting flamed by the fanatics.


Gotcha... as some of long terms refer to another popular Database site as the "other site"... 

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something..


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Gotcha... as some of long terms refer to another popular Database site as the "other site"...
> 
> Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something..


Yeah, never posted there, but have used it's material.


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## jakesimpson (Aug 13, 2002)

So it appears that the choice regarding whether to go with the HR20 or the original Tivo HR10 has been made for us.

Today, I finally decided to get on the HD bandwagon. I went out in with large sums of cash in hand to Best Buy to buy an HR10, which I saw in there a couple of weeks ago.

However, on getting there I am informed that they are out of stock, across the board at Best Buy, and they aren't even advertising it on their website any more, because they can't get any idea from Tivo when they might get some more.

They wouldn't even take my money ready for when one does become available.

I note that Circuit City doesn't have them any more, Amazon notes they are "unavailable" and even the Tivo site no longer has them.

At this point, I am led to believe that the only place to get one is on Ebay, and I'm extremely hesitant about spending $300+ on an online auction site for electronics like this.

Now, It's my understanding that the OTA facility on the HR20 isn't currently enabled, and there's conflicting reports that it never will be? Is that right? And that there are also HDMI handshaking issues as well requiring TV resets or channel changing to reset this - all gleaned from some of this and another forums posts...

This doesn't bode well...

The trouble is, I just like the Tivo functionality - they've always struck me in terms of features of being more on the side of those who watch the TV than on the side of those who wish there to be little choice about how you watch TV (ie people with a vested interest in forcing us to watch advertising).
Plus I have a 4 year old and a 43 year old who just about know how to use Tivo and will be cast adrift again if we switch UI's.

Gah. This is all way more complicated than it should be...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

jakesimpson said:


> ....
> 
> Now, It's my understanding that the OTA facility on the HR20 isn't currently enabled, and there's conflicting reports that it never will be? Is that right? And that there are also HDMI handshaking issues as well requiring TV resets or channel changing to reset this - all gleaned from some of this and another forums posts...


HR10 manufacturing stopped over a year ago... Their supply started to deplete at that point. Over the last couple months, sicne the release of the HR20.. DirecTV had "sales" on the HR10, and basically that finished off the stock.

They recalled some from vendors to fill those "sale" orders... and then people started to buy them up... So yes... HR10's are going the way of Tickle Me Elmo now. Their price will continue to go up, at least until they announce the date of MPEG-2 HD shutdown.

As for the HR20... There is always going to be "conflicting reports" about everything. OTA *IS* going to be enabled... no doubt about it... the hardware is there, and it *WILL* enabled.... the debateable question is when.

October was the original time frames thrown around at the time of the launch of teh HR20... I am hoping to get a deffinitive "October" after the next software update. Current the date CSR's have been given is December 1st. "Official" it is late 2006 (per the sticker on the box and on DirectV.Com)

If you check some of the recent threads... HDMI has been significantly improved over the D1 and D8 releases... The volume of HDMI issues posts has dropped significantly with the D8 release.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> OTA *IS* going to be enabled... no doubt about it... the hardware is there, and it *WILL* enabled.... the debateable question is when.


The only explanation for the OTA tuners not being enabled is that there are some issues with them. How bad? Who knows (other than DTV)?

I would never purchase a product promising to deliver functionality that doesn't exist at the time of purchase. Sure, the OTA tuners will be delivered at some future date (sort of like Windows Vista?) but how clean will they be? After all, the driving force behind the HR10 is (1) dump TiVo and its attendant royalties and (2) enable MPEG4 so DirecTV can offer HD-Lite locals. It wasn't to offer better OTA capabilities than the HR10.

Many complaints have been made here about the HR10's tuners. I will have to say that I have had no problems at all with mine--they have worked perfectly with a $25.00 Rat Shack antenna mounted in my attic I aimed by azimuth while my house was under construction. (Good thing, too, since I can't very easily go up there now!)

One of the reasons I intend to keep my two HR10's as long as possible is that the video quality of my OTA locals is vastly superior to that of the equivalent HD-Lite CBS and Fox national feeds...not to mention that PBS has been totally ignored in the HD MPEG4 rollout for whatever reason.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

ShiningBengal said:


> The only explanation for the OTA tuners not being enabled is that there are some issues with them. How bad? Who knows (other than DTV)?
> 
> I would never purchase a product promising to deliver functionality that doesn't exist at the time of purchase. Sure, the OTA tuners will be delivered at some future date (sort of like Windows Vista?) but how clean will they be? After all, the driving force behind the HR10 is (1) dump TiVo and its attendant royalties and (2) enable MPEG4 so DirecTV can offer HD-Lite locals. It wasn't to offer better OTA capabilities than the HR10.
> 
> ...


As for "why" they are not active... 
The code simply isn't ready for it yet... I have no idea what "state" things are in with it, but bottom line... they where not ready with the OTA at the time of launch...

As for purchasing on a promise... that is fair.. and should be in someones consideration factors when considering the units.
As for the "dump" Tivo... yep... they wanted to sever ties with TiVo.

As for HD-Lite-LIL... Where are you seeing that? 
I have yet to see someone post the resolutions of what is coming accross on the HD-Lites. I have been told that MPEG-4's resoution are not altered. The resolution they get from the affiliates is the resolution that is sent out... The encoding of the MPEG-4 is improving... Here in Chicago, the MPEG-4's are nearly identical to OTA, via the H20... (NOTE: I am viewing that on a 720p unit, but others with 1080i have reported the same).

If you do have a site with proof that resolution has been changed on the HD-LIL plese post the link, I would like to see it.

I'll add that since day one I had a problem with the HR10's OTA tuner, couldn't tune in my VHF-3 unless I unplugged (not just turn off), my Son's computer. But the H20.. no problem... and hopefully the same will be true of teh HR20.. but we will see later.

And PBS and other networks in the areas... Most of those will go up when the new SATs go up. I know PBS is important to a good number of people, especially in HD... but right now, as they are trying to get the Locals up in as many cities as possible, they are selecting the Big 4 networks and RSNs, as those most likely have the largest customer base...


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

ShiningBengal said:


> The only explanation for the OTA tuners not being enabled is that there are some issues with them. How bad? Who knows (other than DTV)?
> 
> I would never purchase a product promising to deliver functionality that doesn't exist at the time of purchase. Sure, the OTA tuners will be delivered at some future date (sort of like Windows Vista?) but how clean will they be? After all, the driving force behind the HR10 is (1) dump TiVo and its attendant royalties and (2) enable MPEG4 so DirecTV can offer HD-Lite locals. It wasn't to offer better OTA capabilities than the HR10.
> 
> ...


From Above....
"I would never purchase a product promising to deliver functionality that doesn't exist at the time of purchase."

I know you are a long time Tivo owner and I've seen your posts on this and many other forums. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a Tivo model that had 2 tuners, but people had to wait for the second one to be enabled????? Oh yeah, that's right I forgot, I owned a couple of UltimateTV units a few years ago that came with dual tuner recording right out of the box, along with PIP in the guide and elsewhere, but Tivo people were still waiting at the time for their "promised" second tuner to be enabled for recording. So much for buying based on "promised future functionality".


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> As for "why" they are not active...
> The code simply isn't ready for it yet... I have no idea what "state" things are in with it, but bottom line... they where not ready with the OTA at the time of launch...
> 
> As for purchasing on a promise... that is fair.. and should be in someones consideration factors when considering the units.
> ...


I was referring to the national network feeds when I mentioned HD-Lite. I was inferring that this might be a clue as to what to expect from MPEG4. I have not seen the MPEG4 network LIL HD stations. I doubt that I will have an opportunity to do an AB comparison on the MPEG4 LIL stationsany time soon, since I already get all of my local stations off the air, as does my brother who lives some 45 miles south of the same towers that are 10 miles away from me. Like me, he has never had a problem getting them with the same Rat Shack antenna I have. Nor does my nephew who lives in the Cincinnatti market (actually in Hebron, KY).

I am not unaware that some have had issues with the OTA tuners in the HR10. I so stated in my post. I merely stated I had not.

Do you have some information as to why the PBS LIL stations have not been included in ANY of the MPEG4 markets being rolled out? And do you have information that they will be available any time soon? That is a very big deal to me, since our local PBS affiliate in the Twin Cities has some of the best HD programming available here, not only in terms of signal quality, but also in terms of content. The other network stations have nothing comparable. No one has argued that MPEG4 delivers a higher quality HD than MPEG2--only that it takes less bandwidth.

As an aside, I think DirecTV's continued downgrading of their resolution over the past few years--both on SD and the existing HD package offering, suggest that they are much more interested in increasing the number of stations, and not the quality. The additional 1500 LIL HD stations plus 150 "national" 150 feeds have been much ballyhooed by DirecTV. However, they haven't given a clue as to what they will be offering, and whether it will be for additional charges, i.e., pay-per-view and local sports packages. I think there is a reason they haven't mentioned it, and I suspect the reason is that people will immediately start asking themselves, "so what?" once they do!

If the HR20 delivers a quality OTA solution AND provides additional real programming choices (i.e., not Kung Fu)--those are very big "ifs" as far as I'm concerned, I might be compelled to replace one of my HR10's with a new HR20. I'm not holding my breath.

From what I've seen here from folks who have and like the HR20, as well as those who have it and find that in many respects it falls considerably short of the mark when compared to the TiVo powered HR10, there isn't anything yet that would cause me to get the HR20, even on a free exchange basis.

I don't yet have 6.3a, but I'm really not overly concerned about when, or even if, I ever receive it. In spite of the resolution of the well-documented speed issues it supposedly fixes (which I must confess have never really bothered me) as well as the folders, which mean less than nothing for me, many loyal HR10 (TiVo) devotees will cause them to seriously question why they would want to "upgrade" to the HR20.

I truly believe OTA (with particular emphasis on PBS signal and programming quality) and the new HD-DVD technologies are the future of HDTV programming--not satellite, not cable and not FIOS. With few exceptions, commercial television programming continues its dismal slide into banality and irrelevance. Much has changed in terms of the quantity programming since 1961 when the (then) FCC chairman Newton Minnow called broadcast TV "a vast wasteland." Unfortunately not much else has.

More recently, former FCC Commissioner Nicholas Johnson lamented that it is "not so much the harm that it [television] continues to do (which is not trivial), but the good that it fails to do ... To be given so much access to such a huge audience, an audience with such serious needs, only to fritter it away," he writes,"is the difference between malfeasance and nonfeasance. It is television's having been given the power and opportunity to do such enormous good, and then failing to do it ... By offering the ideas of the marketplace rather than a marketplace of ideas, we are, in effect, rotting our seed corn."

Nonetheless, I would be delighted to find that he was mistaken. I have seen little evidence so far.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

deepthinker said:


> From Above....
> "I would never purchase a product promising to deliver functionality that doesn't exist at the time of purchase."
> 
> I know you are a long time Tivo owner and I've seen your posts on this and many other forums. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a Tivo model that had 2 tuners, but people had to wait for the second one to be enabled????? Oh yeah, that's right I forgot, I owned a couple of UltimateTV units a few years ago that came with dual tuner recording right out of the box, along with PIP in the guide and elsewhere, but Tivo people were still waiting at the time for their "promised" second tuner to be enabled for recording. So much for buying based on "promised future functionality".


You are right, of course, that the original DirecTiVo's had only one tuner enabled. I paid $399 for my first one. Ultimate TV had not yet been released, so if you wanted a DirecTV integrated DVR, you had only TiVo to choose from. I also had the benefit of having used and really liked the non DirecTV integrated TiVo box. My purchase decision was not predicated on what was promised. What it had was much better than anything else available on the market at the time. If dual tuners were enabled, that would be great, but what was there at the time of purchase was compelling enough for me to plunk down my money.

That cannot be said in the present situation. We are discussing "upgrading" from a product that already has working OTA tuners (perfectly working from my perspective) to one that does not.

It was around six months until Ultimate TV was released with dual tuners enabled. A matter of months later, TiVo's second tuner was enabled, which had few if any issues, unlike Ultimate TV which beat TiVo to the marketplace with enabled dual tuners, and delivered a very buggy product that took many, many months to correct. This was well documented on the AVS forum.

TiVo has a reputation for delivering products with decent code out of the gate. Not perfect, but better than the competition in that respect. I don't think the same can be said for DirecTV. Since it took over manufacturing (on contract of course), one of the receivers it has delivered includes the notable (notorious?)HR15. Hmm.

Based on what I've seen so far, I have some real doubts about the HR20's future OTA tuners.


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## BigTuna (Dec 9, 2003)

jakesimpson said:


> So it appears that the choice regarding whether to go with the HR20 or the original Tivo HR10 has been made for us.
> 
> Today, I finally decided to get on the HD bandwagon. I went out in with large sums of cash in hand to Best Buy to buy an HR10, which I saw in there a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> ...


Best Buy is advertising the HR10-250 today in their Sunday flyer (Chicago Tribune), not sure if they are in stock though?


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

ShiningBengal said:


> I truly believe OTA (with particular emphasis on PBS signal and programming quality) and the new HD-DVD technologies are the future of HDTV (


I agree with much of what you said...but PBS OTA is not a shining example of HD quality in most markets, given the number of subchannels they tend to carry. The same is happening with most of our local networks (and I don't think we're unique here in Tampa).

Slightly unfair to hit D* for "HD-Lite" and not the network affiliates (including PBS) for doing much the same thing in using their available bandwidth.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

bwaldron said:


> I agree with much of what you said...but PBS OTA is not a shining example of HD quality in most markets, given the number of subchannels they tend to carry. The same is happening with most of our local networks (and I don't think we're unique here in Tampa).
> 
> Slightly unfair to hit D* for "HD-Lite" and not the network affiliates (including PBS) for doing much the same thing in using their available bandwidth.


You are correct about the bandwidth issue to a certain extent. While it is true that PBS locals (including Minneapolis) carry a number of subchannels. But bandwidth and resolution are not the same thing.

You don't have to know anything about either bandwidth or resolution to see what is readily apparent to anyone with close to 20/20 eyesight. The picture resolution is MUCH better on PBS than anywhere else--at least in the Twin Cities. Where you see some evidence of a bit rate bottleneck is where there is a lot of motion on the screen, such as in sports broadcasts. There you will occasionally see some blockiness. However, what you don't see is the image softness that you get on DirecTV on nearly all channels, SD or HD. HD (or should I say HD-Lite) really looks more like EDTV than HDTV on DirecTV broadcasts.

On PBS, what you will see most of the time, is an image that is jaw-dropping in comparison to DirecTV. I was watching a broadcast from the Vienna Philharmic a few nights back on Great Performances--a commemoration of Mozart's 250th birthday. The close up shots of the performers' faces were absolutely photographic in quality. You just don't see that on other HD channels. Bear in mind, I have a 720p LCD front projector, projected on a 102" diagonal screen. I have the projector, a Sanyo PLV-Z4 set at 720p, and the output of my HR10-250 is likewise set at 720p. The signal is passed from the HR-10 via HDMI to my AVR-2807 Denon receiver, and from there via HDMI to the projector, so the only conversion happening is a down conversion by the HR10 from the1080i PBS broadcasts in, so the 720p has been compressed from that resolution.

I really think the writing is on the wall for HDTV broadcasting in general. Digital technology allows for either increased numbers of channels, or increased quality or some combination of the two. Generally, one comes at the expense of the other. DirecTV has already shown us the direction they intend to go, and it isn't quality.

I seriously question why anyone would invest in a 1080p HDTV when the resolution potential even for 720p is rarely realized.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

cstelter said:


> What does the indicator tell you directly? Does it tell you you are about to miss a show you care about? Does it tell you that a show you care about is about to be deleted? What precisely does the indicator convey to you that is immediately useful?


It would convey exactly what it named. In other words how much space is left and thus how much can be recorded before things start getting dumped. But of course that should be the obvious.

Usefulness? OK, it's Friday evening and I have a about 10 new shows scheduled to record and can see that I won't have enough space left without something getting deleted. I don't use suggestions, so anything that goes will be something that I specifically wanted to record. But now, I can decide for myself what I want to delete and not have it based on the oldest recording or having to go through them all making them set not to expire. Now, if that is not immediately useful info, then I don't know what is. <shrug>

Now, that said, I don't really care about a free space indicator because I have a life beyond watching TV and never have so much stuff that the drive even gets close to being full.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

As for the lack of PBS in the data stream...

No, I don't have any "official" reasons on why they are not included.
All I know is that when they have the new sats and the additional bandwith, they are going to add more HD Locals to existing set of Locals.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

I personally have decided to wait as long as I can to get an HR20, that is after reading about it's poor recording reliability from people who are using it. There's NO WAY I'm going back to another Dish DVR type nightmare! Been there, done that. Hopefully over the next few months the current users (guinea pigs) will help Directv sort through all the problems and make it an excellent machine. I'll be more than happy to let them while I enjoy the 100% recording reliability of my HR10.  I also use Wishlists and Suggestions constantly so I'll be sad to see them go. I really wish I could try the HR20 for a few weeks before committing to it as that's the only way I'll know if I can live with it. If I can't it's Comcast + S3 for me. 

As far as the FSI? I've always been unhapy with Tivo that they didn't have one. I know it's not a critical thing, but I still want one. I'm the type of guy who would like to see an oil temperature gauge installed on every car. Will 99% of people use it? No, but I would. The more gauges the better, and the more features and utilities on a DVR the better.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

deepthinker said:


> The slowness of Tivo's has always pissed me and the wife off. Even with 6.2 on the SD's units it's still slower than the UTV's ever were. I know you can never convince a Tivo fanatic, but the wife and I still believe to this day that the UTV's were better than Tivo and hate Microsoft for giving up on the platform. I know people still use them, but we made the jump to HD and only Tivo did it at the time. The HR20 seems to have a lot of similarities to the old UTV, so that is another decision maker.


So your real reason for leaving is that you're a UTV fanatic with an "anything but TiVo" complex. Glad we could clear that up.


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## Ed Campbell (Jul 13, 2002)

Don't drop by here anymore because the HR20 is cranking up quickly enough for me. WAF is fine.

I started with D* the 3rd month they were on the street. Over the years I had a few of the initial units because of self-destruction. I had 4 GXCEBOT's when the DTVR's came out -- three of them were replacements. I had 3 HR10's -- 2 of them were replacements.

My experience with the HR20 is well ahead of that. Plus -- it's faster and has added features that increase my enjoyment using the critter. No need for me to list any of that -- the DBSTalk forum does a fine job.

Earl learned his craft well over here and does a job worth complimenting over there. I do wish he'd get a spell checker. But, meanwhile -- I post my [now rare] occasional hiccup there because it's obvious the D* code-writers pay attention and I think they should see every possible comment.

(My HR10 is unplugged for good. Anyone interested should PM me.) -- edit: Taken.


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

nrc said:


> So your real reason for leaving is that you're a UTV fanatic with an "anything but TiVo" complex. Glad we could clear that up.


UTV was ahead of it's time, but it had it's drawbacks. For my family, Tivo's drawbacks outweighed the UTV. To each his own, DVR GUI's are a personal thing, we all expect different things from them. I just want one that does what I want it to do and it's starting to sound like the HR20 is the best of UTV and Tivo with some addded extras. Is it going to have growing pains, sure, but I can live with that. DTV is sending software updates out a lot faster and more often than Microsoft or Tivo ever did to address acknowledged problems. There's a lot to be said for that.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

deepthinker said:


> UTV was ahead of it's time, but it had it's drawbacks. For my family, Tivo's drawbacks outweighed the UTV. To each his own, DVR GUI's are a personal thing, we all expect different things from them. I just want one that does what I want it to do and it's starting to sound like the HR20 is the best of UTV and Tivo with some addded extras. Is it going to have growing pains, sure, but I can live with that. DTV is sending software updates out a lot faster and more often than Microsoft or Tivo ever did to address acknowledged problems. There's a lot to be said for that.


Not if there not properly testing that code to see if it causes any more problems.


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## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

Where is the "other forum" that says you can use the ESATA port on the HR20? I was reading DBS and they said it wasn't activated yet and the only way to get it to work was to switch the internal SATA port to the external one and that still leaves you with just one drive. Is that what your talking about? Or was there a software update that enabled the ESATA port?

Can you post the link in here or PM me with it if it's not allowed? Thanks.

Sorry I am discussing this on a TiVo forum but I am starting to get worried with all the talk of the existing HD channels switching to the new satellites in 2007 and making my HR10-250 useless


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

The Forum http://www.dbstalk.com

The eSATA Thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=66201

eSATA was enabled with the D8 release last Wednesday


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

It's nice that Directv decided to switch on the E-SATA capability for the HR20. This reassures me a little more that their not afraid to let the techies play around with the HR20. It's definitely the kind of thing that makes me want to stay with them. Like I've said before, if the HR20 can show that it's at least 99% reliable in recordings, I doubt I'll have any problems switching to it. I will miss Wishlists and Suggestions though.


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## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

Wow thats cool. Well I may just have to have an HR10-250, an S3, and a new HR20 on my Living Room TV. Good thing I purchased the 5 port HDMI switcher from monoprice last month.

One question though. Right now I have 2 HR10-250's, 3 HDVR2's, and one regular HNS receiver for the guest bedroom (with a spare line in there in case we ever want to upgrade to a TiVo / DirecTV DVR). Then there is another spare room with a line in it.

So thats 13 lines and they have 3 4x8's cascaded. When they put in the new dish will they have to replace all of those since there is more than 3 LNB's now or will it still work with the 4x8's?

On top of all that if I use the $99 deal I called about last week they will give me 2 new HR20's and relocate my HR10's so that's 4 more lines. I'd want to keep the HR10's in the same place they are now because they have a few hundred shows I still want to watch. I probably could get rid of the HDVR2 in my bedroom but I would want the HR10-250 to be working perfect with folders before I could replace that with all the SD stuff I record.  

-Joe


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

You would need to do something with your multiswitches, but it would depend on what your final post upgrade layout would be like.


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## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

Right now I could get away with 13 lines but I'd like to have the other extra 2. Minimum right now would be 13 lines though.

2 HR10-250's - 4
2 HVR2's - 4
2 HR20-700's - 4
1 HNS - 1

So what would I have to get for a new switch and would the 2 x $99 upgrade cover that?

-Joe


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

kbohip said:


> There's NO WAY I'm going back to another Dish DVR type nightmare! Been there, done that. Hopefully over the next few months the current users (guinea pigs) will help Directv sort through all the problems and make it an excellent machine. I'll be more than happy to let them while I enjoy the 100% recording reliability of my HR10.


More than likely, the HR20 guinea pigs will help D* make the HR30 much better. Just wait for that one.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

jrock said:


> Right now I could get away with 13 lines but I'd like to have the other extra 2. Minimum right now would be 13 lines though.
> 
> 2 HR10-250's - 4
> 2 HVR2's - 4
> ...


Basically you can run something similar like I have:

AT9 -> Zinwel WB68 Switch.... off that swtich:

4 lines to my 2 HR20's
4 lines to my multiswitch array:
The array is the 4 spliters which feed two JVI 4x8 multiswitch; which give me the 16 ports for all the other non-mpeg4 receivers


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## mwinn (Oct 15, 2001)

Personally I REALLY like the TIVO suggestions. I don't want to have to plan in advance everything I may want to watch. I set up a season pass for my must see's, then enjoy the suggestions other times. I like getting a sitcom or movie recorded that I may have otherwise missed. I also think TIVO does a great job of recording what I do like, albeit sometime in teaching it with the thumbs up and down buttons.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Lee L said:


> More than likely, the HR20 guinea pigs will help D* make the HR30 much better. Just wait for that one.


That would be fine by me. In the meantime I get to record HD and get the new MPEG4 channels as they light up. :up:

Then when the "next" gen HD DVR box comes out in a couple years I simply swap out my leased HR20 for the latest and greatest.


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## bbodin (Jan 21, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Then when the "next" gen HD DVR box comes out in a couple years I simply swap out my leased HR20 for the latest and greatest.


and unfortunately probably pay another $300 lease fee


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

bbodin said:


> and unfortunately probably pay another $300 lease fee


Good thing they are only $99 right now if you already own an HR10


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## Krookut (Apr 7, 2002)

Can the H20 record the MPEG2 network (E/W coast) HD feeds as well as the HD network locals? I like getting the NY locals for sports.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Krookut said:


> Can the H20 record the MPEG2 network (E/W coast) HD feeds as well as the HD network locals? I like getting the NY locals for sports.


No, the H20 can not.... but the HR20 can 

However once your MPEG4 locals are lit up, your days are numbered on how long you will have the NY locals.

And do check... DirecTV just announced 25 more cities today.


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## utvnut (Feb 4, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Good thing they are only $99 right now if you already own an HR10


I've got 3 HR10s. (Only one with 6.3) I'm not stuck on tivo software if the HR20 is the future so why pay anything? What happened to free swap out for the HR10?

I would expect to swap all 3 for free, maybe not all at once but maybe one then after they get more availability (and I get used to it and see if it's OK) then swap the others.

Is that going to be the deal because with good off air locals there is no reason to give them any more money.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

utvnut said:


> I've got 3 HR10s. (Only one with 6.3) I'm not stuck on tivo software if the HR20 is the future so why pay anything? What happened to free swap out for the HR10?
> 
> I would expect to swap all 3 for free, maybe not all at once but maybe one then after they get more availability (and I get used to it and see if it's OK) then swap the others.
> 
> Is that going to be the deal because with good off air locals there is no reason to give them any more money.


So wait until they start shutting down the MPEG-2's... then you have a chance to get it for free.

Untill then $99 is what the offer is.


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## bbodin (Jan 21, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Good thing they are only $99 right now if you already own an HR10


yea, that HR10 that most paid $200-1000 for. You make it sound like a bargain though


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

bbodin said:


> yea, that HR10 that most paid $200-1000 for. You make it sound like a bargain though


But they don't take your HR10... you keep it as well.

They are just offering owners of the HR10, an HR20 for $99...


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bbodin said:


> yea, that HR10 that most paid $200-1000 for. You make it sound like a bargain though


Remember too that it is now _leased _ equipment ...so you do not own it ...and if you ever leave D* you must return it to them.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Sir_whinealot said:


> Remember too that it is now _leased _ equipment ...so you do not own it ...and if you ever leave D* you must return it to them.


Then again... if you ever leave DirecTV with it, the unit is no good.
It will not work without DirecTV Service.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> Then again... if you ever leave DirecTV with it, the unit is no good.
> It will not work without DirecTV Service.


Ah, very true ....but if you _owned_ it and then left D*, you could always sell it and recoup a portion of your initial expenditure.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_whinealot said:


> Ah, very true ....but if you _owned_ it and then left D*, you could always sell it and recoup a portion of your initial expenditure.


Prolly not worth a whole lot though since it's a leased unit and you can get them for $99 bucks now in an upgrade. But you'll never now what someone on e-Bay will pay for something. :up:


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Ah...the cavalry. 



bonscott87 said:


> Prolly not worth a whole lot though since it's a leased unit and you can get them for $99 bucks now in an upgrade. But you'll never now what someone on e-Bay will pay for something. :up:


Er...exactly my point ..._it's a leased unit._ We're kinda goin' in circles here.



> Ah, very true ....but if you _owned_ it and then left D*, you could always sell it and recoup a portion of your initial expenditure.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)




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