# Newbie with TiVo - Amazing Product!



## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Hi All.

We recently got TiVo and now, I don't know how we ever lived without it. What a nice product this is.

I love the featuers so much, that I begun to look at TivoTogo. After reading all there is to see about it, the transfer speeds were too slow for me. This and many other TiVo limitations let me to look in to home PVR's systems.

I just setup SageTV server on my PC with a MediaMVP on my TV - What a nice combo! I don't get noise in my bedrooms like the TiVo box does, I can easilly add disk drives to my PC, setup was easy, lower costs overall, HD ability, can see weahter information and best of all, no sub-scription fees!

I am not bashing TiVo. I think it is a wonderful product and I am happy the TiVo open my eyes to this new technology. I think that TiVo is great, but there are much better and cheaper solutions out there. I will unfortunately be canceling my TiVo service soon. I wish they charged less than 12.95 a month.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

joe123j said:


> I think that TiVo is great, but there are much better and cheaper solutions out there. I will unfortunately be canceling my TiVo service soon. I wish they charged less than 12.95 a month.


TiVo lifetime usually works out to be nearly free once typical resale values are factored in.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

dgh said:


> TiVo lifetime usually works out to be nearly free once typical resale values are factored in.


Yes, if I stay with TiVo, I would go with the 300 lifetime subscription. For me, the total is $300 plus $200 for the box (after rebates). $500 bucks for one unit.

For $250, I get SageTV server with tuner card, MediaMVP with license and that is it. My PC hardy uses any CPU cycles to record. I get a nice quite bedroom (no noise).

Now, here is the killer: I have 5 TV's total. $500 bucks a pop is rather high for me. With SageTV, it is $99 per TV. $2,500 .vs. $400 bucks AND no noise in the bedrooms, faster service, can add more disk easily, can add more tuners, TV recordings are not encrypted, and oh yes, NO COMMERCIALS! There is a nice plug available for $10 bucks to skip commercials.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Good for you, joe!
Sounds like you've found a solution that fits your needs nicely. It's good to hear success stories.

Sorry you had to spend so much on a tivo just to find out that a home-brew solution fit your needs better. Maybe you can find someone who will be happy with the tivo you just bought so you can recoup at least some of your investment in it.

Here's a forum for SageTV users, for tips, tricks and info from folks who have similar setups:
http://forums.freytechnologies.com/forums/

Good luck!


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Fortunately for me, I bought TiVO at Costco. Costco has a life time return policy on things like this, so I can return it any time I want and get full credit.

Again, don't get me wrong. I think TiVo is great. TiVo is like using a car when you have walked your entire life. SageTV is like using a jet plane when you have used a car (TiVO) all your life.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Good deal Joe!

...and for those who don't mind working on jets (), here are a few more home pctv software packages:

MythTV
SnapStream
Meedio
.... and that's just the few that come to mind!

Here's a good site for the do-it-yourself'ers to get started, for those not afraid to crack your pc's case and jump on in!

...and for goodness sake,

Have Fun!


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

jmoak said:


> Good deal Joe!
> 
> ...and for those who don't mind working on jets (), here are a few more home pctv software packages:


I tried most of those, but SageTV was simple and easy to setup and use. If you use TiVoTogo to burn movies, you are already a Certified Jet machenic 

Does the noise of your TiVo bother you? The one eval unit in our bedroom makes lots of disk noise throughout the night. It is beginning to bother me


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

joe123j said:


> Fortunately for me, I bought TiVO at Costco. Costco has a life time return policy on things like this, so I can return it any time I want and get full credit.


I dont think costco is going to give you back the 299 lifetime subscription


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I just don't understand how you can not count the hardware costs when you count the cost for SageTV. Did you get the computers for free?

What is MediaMVP? Sounds interesting.

EDIT: I looked into MediaMVP, seems like a cool product. I take it that you have a wired netowrk, since these do not natively support 802.11x? I don't really know, in that case, why the network speeds on the TiVo were a problem. I get faster than realtime on "Best" quality over a wireless network, using bridges. Which speeds was it that bothered you?

I might look into getting a MediaMVP for the second TV, $99 is a good price for something like that, IMO. Can say 2 different MediaMVP access the PC at the same time? SHouldn't be a problem, I would think, other than the network speed perhaps?


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

MickeS said:


> I just don't understand how you can not count the hardware costs when you count the cost for SageTV. Did you get the computers for free?
> 
> What is MediaMVP? Sounds interesting.


I already have a PC. If you don't have a PC, then yes, you need to buy the hardware.

If you do own a PC, then all you need is a video capture card to get the movies. For around $250 for hardware and licenses, I can get a total soltuion for watching movies on my my bedroom via the MediaMVP.

Here is some info on the MediaMVP:
http://sagetv.com/extender.html

There is a wireless MediaMVP coming out.

By the way, if you want to use TiVoTogo, then you need a PC. TiVoToGo was the culprit  that let me to look at home based PVR systems like SageTV. The transfer rate was so pathetically slow with TiVoToGo, and the fact that showes are ecrypted, that I said heck, if I am going to have a PC to work with TiVo, why not just put everything on the PC - which is what SageTV does.

So my PC acts like the central server storing all movies and each MediaMVP on each TV acts like a viewer. Each TV can watch a different recording stored on my SageTV PC server.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

But can you use the PC for other stuff while SageTV is doing its thing? That's mainly the thing that has kept me from using the PC as a DVR (well, that and because I love TiVo, and have a lifetime sub on it).


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I dont think costco is going to give you back the 299 lifetime subscription


No, I canceled that before my 30 days eval with TiVo.

Costco WILL refund my TiVo hardware box I bought at Costco - they refund anything and with a smile


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

MickeS said:


> But can you use the PC for other stuff while SageTV is doing its thing? That's mainly the thing that has kept me from using the PC as a DVR (well, that and because I love TiVo, and have a lifetime sub on it).


Yes, 100%. Actually, my computer uses at most 5-10% for SageTV activities. The reason is this. The video capture card is doing the encoding (all the hard work), so there is no CPU needed for that.

When you stream a movie to a MediaMVP, the MediaMVP is actually a decoder. The PC is doing a simple send file to MediaMVP - hardly any CPU strain on the system. SageTV server runs in the backgrond if you like. So your PC is neither doing a encoding nor a decoding when using it with MediaMVP.

Now, if you use TiVoToGo, heck, you have a lot of encryptions going which slows everything down thus one of the reasons for the pathetic up/down speeds with TiVoTogo even if you use hard wire links. Not so with SageTV 

Again, don't get me wrong. I love TiVo, but SageTV blows TiVo out the water thus why I am returning my TiVo and switching to SageTV. TiVo is just great for the GAF (grandma approval factor). The moment you play with TiVoToGo, you realize just how powerful it is and how much you want those features.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

> _SageTV...SageTV...SageTV...etc._


Okay, joe, we get it. Many of us are tech-heads and enjoy playing around with this kind of system, but there are more appropriate forums in which to discuss that experience -- this is a TiVo forum. Everyone here is being very patient, but it is time to take your viral marketing campaign elsewhere.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Don't get me wrong. Sage is a nice package, but the tivo scheduling engine blows Sage out the water thus why I put together a pc server setup around TiVo and gave up on capture card solutions.


YEah, that's another reason I haven't tried any PC-based solutions. I have zero desire to use an EPG to choose recordings from, I want to do it with search criteria, keywords and suggestions. Of course, SageTV might pull this off, and just not advertise it.

But everything I've read about PC-based solutions always tout 1) cheaper (well, if you don't count the PC) and 2) no DRM. Since I don't really care about that (my TiVo files have no DRM ) there hasn't been incentive enough to go with anything else.

But the MediaMVP boxes seem interesting as a complement to TiVoToGo.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

MickeS said:


> YEah, that's another reason I haven't tried any PC-based solutions. I have zero desire to use an EPG to choose recordings from, I want to do it with search criteria, keywords and suggestions. Of course, SageTV might pull this off, and just not advertise it..


Yes, SageTV has about 90% of the same type of search functions, no not all, but most.

Out of curiousity, if you use TiVoTogo, what is your best transfer rate between TiVo and your PC?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

joe123j said:


> Yes, SageTV has about 90% of the same type of search functions, no not all, but most.
> 
> Out of curiousity, if you use TiVoTogo, what is your best transfer rate between TiVo and your PC?


yes but I have also seen the guide data itself being an issue for not being fully filled out to do more.

as for TiVoToGo rates - I get good rates but I have not checked them in a long time. I have software that transfers them for me to the PC and I just note they are there when I go to convert to AVI and put more on my smartphone.

since I do have TiVos around the house that do MRV at better than real time over my wired network that is the rate I worry about and it works fine and is easy enough for my kids to do as well. See I actually want my shows to mostly stay on the TiVo DVR(s) since that is where I watch them. The ones I wnat on my phone end up on the PC for me so it is disengenuous to beat on TiVoToGo speed as being the reason to ditch TiVo. I have 4 tuners and they seperate out shows well for storage - kids on tyhe kids TiVo - primetime on the main TiVo - Sci Fi on my TiVo and extra tuner in the bedroom. all catagorizing shows in a very set it and forget it mode and I browse all shows from any TV ion the house and can starting watching anyone within a minute.

also you say your Sage is in the basement. Does not sound like it is doing much else and most anyone would use a dedicated PC for such a task and a specialized case if in the living room. Add in the cost or it is not a real comparison. really deflates you whole marketing campaign here, I can tell you that.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> all catagorizing shows in a very set it and forget it mode and I browse all shows from any TV ion the house and can starting watching anyone within a minute..


The transfer rates are significanly degarded if TiVo is also doing something else, like recording a show. I tried it and got several pauses (TiVo hard wired to PC).

When I tested TiVo transfering a TiVo show from PC back to TiVo, it was almost as fast as watching real time (some pauses), BUT when you get to the commercials, you are stuck since the data cannot come any faster and thus you have to wait.

On SageTV using the MediaMVP extenders, watching a show does not take a minute, but it is instant. I can skip commercials real time, actually, SageTV can skip commercials automatically which is even better 

As for the basement PC - it was a trow away PC. SageTV server takes hardly any CPU cycles. I found it easier than to put it on my primary PC, but if you do put in on your home PC, you wont even know it's there since it hardly taxes the PC.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Out of curiousity, if you use TiVoTogo, what is your best transfer rate between TiVo and your PC?


Last time I checked it was around 800-900 kB/s, which I guess translates to around 7-8Mbit/s (?). Better than real-time, which is all I care about. Transferring from the tivo is done with rules in Galleon, so I don't really know when and how fast its transferring.



> BUT when you get to the commercials, you are stuck since the data cannot come any faster and thus you have to wait.


True, right at the beginning of the show you can't skip ahead. But I wouldn't need SageTV to watch shows in realtime from the PC, only the MediaMVP.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Quick question for all you TiVo experts. Why is there NO automatic commercial skipping or removal in TiVo?

Seems to me that you waste a LOT of disk space with commercials.

Beyond TV, SageTV and others have auto commercial skipping, why not with TiVo specially since TiVo has been around so long?


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

joe123j said:


> Quick question for all you TiVo experts. Why is there NO automatic commercial skipping or removal in TiVo?
> 
> Seems to me that you waste a LOT of disk space with commercials.
> 
> Beyond TV, SageTV and others have auto commercial skipping, why not with TiVo specially since TiVo has been around so long?


Because the networks sued SonicBlue (the makers of ReplayTV) over their auto commercial skip feature. They forced SB to settle and remove the feature from their new recorders. In doing so, they also screwed the company straight into bankruptcy and they were then taken over by the holding company for Dennon.

http://www.clickz.com/news/article.php/914921

Google can get you more details on that one.

The courts even sided with the networks when Replay users (with the backing of the EFF) tried a sidestep suit to force the issue and get it back.

http://news.com.com/Judge+deletes+suit+by+ReplayTV+owners/2100-1025_3-5139477.html?tag=mainstry

It sucked big time. Tivo can't afford to make that fight.


Beyond TV, SageTV and others have not had to deal with the same mess 'cause the networks don't yet see them as any kind of threat. ....not enough users to matter.

I hope that changes, but there ya go.

and btw, I damn sure ain't no expert, but I answered anyway.
I hope that's ok.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Thank you for the explanation. I had no idea how bad these big corporations are. 

I will tell you that once you use Auto Commercial Skipping, you will never go back  

It is just like TiVo, once you had TiVo, you never want to go back to regular TV. It is so nice to simply watch my TV SKIP right over all those nasty commercials. 

Even though BeyondTV is not that big, I am now amazed by just how much BeyondTV points out the fact that their product has auto commercial detection/skipping. I mean, they are really pushing that feature in everyone's face. 

So has anyone written anything for TiVo to do this, or you can't because it will violate TiVO policy of not being able to modify their software?


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

jmoak said:


> Just remember, when you tire of the limitations of pc-only based solutions and want the best of both worlds, think of how a tivo scheduling engine and it's dependability could fit into the big picture. It's nice to have someone "grooming" your guide data and recording for you. .... for a nominal charge, of course.


I agree 100% with you, but you have it backwards 

The only reason I am giving up TiVo for a whole house PC PVR base solution is due to the limitations of TiVo. I mean, here are just some of the limitations that come to mind with TiVo:

- Cannot add multiple Tunners ( recording conflicts )
- Cannot add multiple disk drives ( expand recording capacity )
- Slow transfer speeds between PC and TiVO with TiVoTogo
- No HD (High Definition) recording with curren TiVos.
- No Commercial detection / skipping  
- $300 bucks for EPG data which is free elsewhere.
- Cannot cheaply expand TiVo to entire house ( whole house PVR ).
- TV Recordings are encryted in TiVo files 
- No Movie Database search ( IMDB Data base search )
- No way to view local Weather info
- No way to view local traffic maps
- No way to see who is calling you ( Caller ID )
- No way to change the menus

Correct me if I am wrong in any of the above. Unless I am missing something huge, that limitaions exists, but in TiVo.

Also, do realize that the TiVo lifetime subscription is tied to the TiVo box. If the box (hardware) dies, you cannot move that subscription unto a new TiVo. This was another HUGE negative for me even though TiVo says they will "work" with you.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

joe123j said:


> I just setup SageTV server on my PC with a MediaMVP on my TV - What a nice combo! I don't get noise in my bedrooms like the TiVo box does, I can easilly add disk drives to my PC, setup was easy, lower costs overall, HD ability, can see weahter information and best of all, no sub-scription fees!


 Please explain how you can get MediaMVP working with HD captures? Last I checked MediaMVP only had S-video or composite connections.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

jmoak said:


> Don't give up and diss one platform to pledge allegiance solely to another. One will do some things better than another, but not all. Why not have the best of both worlds?


Ok, I see your point now. Yes you are right - I will consider it (it's just that TiVo lacks so much).

As for the other poster asking about the MediaMVP doing HD, no, it cannot. If your PC is next to the HD TV (as would be the case when HD TiVo comes out) then you get HD viewing on your TV with the correct video card on your PC.

Also, YES, I am having FUN! For me, FUN is being able to fly a jet plane - no fun riding a bicycle.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

joe123j said:


> I agree 100% with you, but you have it backwards
> 
> The only reason I am giving up TiVo for a whole house PC PVR base solution is due to the limitations of TiVo. I mean, here are just some of the limitations that come to mind with TiVo:
> 
> ...


multiple TiVos
you can upgrade drives pretty easily in a TiVo
you totally ignored the fact of most shows stay on a tiVo and MRV is better than real time
30 second skip
TiVo guide data is cleaned up and much more useful for season passes and wishlists
I still say you include the cost of a PC and PCs to do DVR with whiz bang features are around 1200
Yahoo apps will do everything but the movie database search, but a search could be written forHME pretty easily

and if I saw a pack of threads on TiVos dying and people feeling they lost their money then you might have that as well. But TiVos are proven to last a long time and certainly well beyond the value of a lifetime.

and like jmoak said - you can do anything you want with a tivo file after it is on your PC.

The series 3 is coming out with an ethernet port on it and do HD.

so either approach is valid but you loose a lot of credibility for me with all the stretches you take in your posts. if you like sage more than why hang here ?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if you like sage more than why hang here ?


Maybe because Sage can't afford any real marketing? Because they're trying to sell a product that you have to be computer savvy and technically adventurous to use and they're hoping to find a few such people on these forums? Because they've got freeware competitors on one side, Beyond TV and their ilk on the other, and Microsoft pressing up the middle, and think maybe they can last a little longer if they can poach some TiVo subs?


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

No, you dont need a "PC" in every room for each TV, it is just the opposite with SageTV. That is the whole idea behind a whole house PVR system.

With TiVo, you need a "TiVo" (PC) in every room for every TV.

Yahoo connection with TiVo will only add more ADDS. I am not going to pay for a product to then receive MORE advertisement. My trial TiVo already had adds right on the first TiVo menu - not for me thank you if you want 300 bucks membership.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

joe123j said:


> I will tell you that once you use Auto Commercial Skipping, you will never go back
> 
> So has anyone written anything for TiVo to do this, or you can't because it will violate TiVO policy of not being able to modify their software?


I really tried not to join this thread--why waste electrons defending my TiVo, but I have to answer this.

Having had a TiVo for a while, I can use 2X and 3X to skip commercials so quickly, it *might* take all of 4-5 seconds to go through a commercial break. Even I can live with that 

Plus if there is an interesting commercial (and at 3X it has to be GOOD to catch my eye), I can go back and watch it.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

*- No HD (High Definition) recording with curren TiVos.*
Nor with any current PC based DVR, except for ATSC/QAM( Which could be siginificant)
*
- $300 bucks for EPG data which is free elsewhere.
*

The subscription fee pays for a lot more than the EPG.
Plus with the lower starting costs and system operating costs (apart from the fee), a TiVo is cheaper than a PC.

*
- Cannot cheaply expand TiVo to entire house ( whole house PVR ).
*
No more costly , on average, than a few PC systems.
*
If the box (hardware) dies, you cannot move that subscription unto a new TiVo.
*
Typically, it is the HDD that fails, lesser the PSU, both which can be replaced with no affect to account status.


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

This thread's subject line is "Newbie with TiVo - Amazing Product"

He starts by saying,


> We recently got TiVo and now, I don't know how we ever lived without it. What a nice product this is.


The OP registered 3 days ago, and has 15 posts. All of them are in this thread.

What does he have to say about this "nice product?"



> I don't get noise in my bedrooms like the TiVo box does





> best of all, no sub-scription fees!





> here are much better and cheaper solutions out there





> I wish they charged less than 12.95 a month





> Does the noise of your TiVo bother you? The one eval unit in our bedroom makes lots of disk noise throughout the night. It is beginning to bother me





> the pathetic up/down speeds with TiVoTogo





> SageTV blows TiVo out the water





> TiVo is just great for the GAF (grandma approval factor)





> Why is there NO automatic commercial skipping or removal in TiVo?





> I will tell you that once you use Auto Commercial Skipping, you will never go back[/
> 
> 
> > > Cannot add multiple Tunners ( recording conflicts )
> ...


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

justapixel said:


> This thread's subject line is "Newbie with TiVo - Amazing Product"
> 
> He starts by saying,
> 
> ...


Yep. He's a bona fide faker, a genuine shill; the title of this thread is also a fake. It's a phony thread: bait and switch.

Move along, nothing to see here.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

joe123j said:


> No, you dont need a "PC" in every room for each TV, it is just the opposite with SageTV. That is the whole idea behind a whole house PVR system.
> 
> With TiVo, you need a "TiVo" (PC) in every room for every TV.
> 
> Yahoo connection with TiVo will only add more ADDS. I am not going to pay for a product to then receive MORE advertisement. My trial TiVo already had adds right on the first TiVo menu - not for me thank you if you want 300 bucks membership.


now you are tyring to say that a TiVo is a PC - yet Sage is better because it is on a PC . Yahoo does not add one single ad to the TiVo. There is only one yellow satr ad ever deisplayed on the main menu and only on the main menu.

now you are just out right lying and saying anything you can to shill a product, sage TV that I could get for free by going open source.

*You are a really bad shill and have actually done damage to the reputation of sage TV with your babbling posts.*


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

dmdeane said:


> Yep. He's a bona fide faker, a genuine shill; the title of this thread is also a fake. It's a phony thread: bait and switch.
> 
> Move along, nothing to see here.


Perhaps I should change the subject line to read "SageTV sucks."


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

justapixel said:


> Perhaps I should change the subject line to read "SageTV sucks."


Now that would be lean and mean :up:


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> *You are a really bad shill and have actually done damage to the reputation of sage TV with your babbling posts.*


No, no, it makes perfect sense to come to a forum full of (mostly) happy TiVo users with this transparent charade and tell us all how much TiVo sucks. I'm sure lots of TiVo users now want to try Sage after seeing what a classy operation they run.

And people say TiVo's marketing is bad.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I don't want to try SageTV after this, but MediaMVP seems interesting. 

And I think everyone saw that this was not really about TiVo right away, but as long as the tone is civil and the discussion factual and TiVo-related, what's the harm?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

MickeS said:


> And I think everyone saw that this was not really about TiVo right away, but as long as the tone is civil and the discussion factual and TiVo-related, what's the harm?


The harm is that it is not factual. The guy is here under false pretenses -- i.e., he is lying and misrepresenting why he is posting. He could have come right out and told us he works for Sage (if, indeed, he does), titled the thread "SageTV is better than TiVo" and given his reasons why he thinks Sage is better. But instead, he lies and treats us like we're too stupid to recognize what he is doing. Given the rules of this forum, he may be allowed to do that, but we are also allowed (and I feel an obligation) to point it out.

Plus, it is kind of funny how lame it is.


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

Dude has 154 posts on SageTV forums - his last one is about how people in his house are going through TiVo withdrawals.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

justapixel said:


> Dude has 154 posts on SageTV forums - his last one is about how people in his house are going through TiVo withdrawals.


Well that dude seems like a genuine SageTV user to me from looking at some of those 154 posts. He also looks like he now has a Tivo. Doesn't this disprove the SaveTV marketing consipiracy you guys are suggesting, not reinforce it? 

Perhaps I'm naive.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

greg_burns said:


> Perhaps I'm naive.


Perhaps. A lot of companies now openly engage in this sort of marketing. And not only on the Internet - they pay people to go to bars and events too. However, you would *hope* that a professional would be less blatant/obvious. 

But maybe that's just what he wants us to think. 

But the fact that his family has TiVo withdrawal is making me think this is a Tim Allen-like character on a quest for "More Power!"


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

I don't _think_ he works for SageTV, at least the company. At least, based on what little *I* know about him. At first, I just thought he was just a troll.

But, it's definitely some sort of viral marketing ploy - whether he is doing it out of love for the product or because he is paid it's hard to say. Reading some of his posts on their forum, I don't see the awesome love he displayed here - mostly he's asking for tech support and sounds like a brand new user.  I admit to not having read all 154 posts though.

The truth is he did come to TiVoCommunity to post about how much better SageTV is than TiVo, and masked it somewhat in the opening posts. The reasons he did it? Dunno, but it's not cool in any case.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Amazing how much assumptions go on over here. 

I don't work for TiVo nor SageTV nor any other company associated with PVR systems, nor do I post on SageTV web site as a liar stated here. 

I like TiVo which was my first statement, but found TiVo as a stepping stone to many better products at cheaper prices. 

My house setup demands setting up 5 TV's. At 300 bucks a shoot for TiVo subscription per TV PLUS having to buy a TiVO box for each TV, well the costs were high enough for me to look at other solutions like SageTV. 

I canceled my TiVo subscription trial and I still have the TiVo box because I am trying to see if TiVo is really worth it - so I am honestly trying to give it a fair evaluation. 

Nobody here has yet to prove to me why I should keep my TiVo without engaging in emotional attacks. What I see here is a cult  And as with all cults, reality will eventually set in one way or another, but I can guarantee you that it will set in eventually.

I will repeat for the emotionally sensative: TiVo is fine, but it is lacking compared to other solutions out there - show me where/how it beats something like SageTV or BeyondTV type of services?


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

jmoak said:


> Instead, he just came off as a ... well, for lack of a better term, a troll.


Yeah, I can see that now. I had only skimmed his posts before.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> I will repeat for the emotionally sensative: TiVo is fine, but it is lacking compared to other solutions out there - show me where/how it beats something like SageTV or BeyondTV type of services?


Fine = amazing? 

It beats SageTV in ease of use, ease of setup and reliability. Probably cost too, as I imagine that most people really will want to have their DVR be a separate PC. At least after they come home and someone had to reboot after installation of new software, but didn't know that Sage was recording that football game at the moment... 

The MediaMVP you were touting can be used with TiVo and a PC too (although this require an extra step to get a .tivo file to be an .mpeg file, a step which as I understand it SageTV doesn't need), so SageTV is nothing special there.

Where it lacks is transfer speed. No big deal to most people, but I do wish TiVo would find a way to speed it up.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

When using the MediaMVP with TiVo, can you schedule which shows to record from the MVP with TiVo? Can you delete the recording once done watching or archive them if not? 

Your approach sounds like a around about way to get a movie from TiVO into your pc, having to conver it, then watching it. For that, you might as well as bypass TiVo since that is the whole purpose of MVP and no subscription fees  :up:


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

jmoak said:


> Please consider this:
> What kind of reaction do you think I would get on the Sage forum if titled a thread "SageTV is Great! - Amazing Product!" and then went on to relate how bad Sage was when compared to a Tivo, how anyone who used Sage was somehow misguided, how one day reality would eventually set in one way or another and I could somehow guarantee that it will set in eventually and all Sage users would see the errors of their ways and switch to the Tivo platform?
> 
> The reaction would not be very good, would it?.


Ok, good point. I will change the subject like if I can - not sure how.

When I first started my post, I felt like TiVo was an amazing box and that interested parties would want to know more about the next better box, just like when you first got your TiVo, but instead, I think I jumped into a cult.

I'll change the subject like if it makes you feel better.

Now, getting back to the issues everyone here tries to side step, how is TiVo with TiVoToGo better than SageTV for example? I tried them both, and again, TiVo is fine (or AMAZING if you like), but SageTV blows it out the water *AND* No Subscription fees :up:


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## Timber (Apr 28, 2002)

joe123j said:


> Ok, good point. I will change the subject like if I can - not sure how.
> 
> When I first started my post, I felt like TiVo was an amazing box and that interested parties would want to know more about the next better box, just like when you first got your TiVo, but instead, I think I jumped into a cult.
> 
> ...


Hey friendly Moderator, Joe wants to change the subject line, why not do it for him. Call it "SageTV Blows TiVo Out Of The Water".

-=Tim=-


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Timber said:


> Hey friendly Moderator, Joe wants to change the subject line, why not do it for him. Call it "SageTV Blows TiVo Out Of The Water".
> 
> -=Tim=-


Hey, I like that! :up:


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

"Mommy dropped me on my head" is always a good title


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

How about: "Troll Alert! SageTV user thinks TiVo users are stupid"


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

joe123j said:


> Now, getting back to the issues everyone here tries to side step, how is TiVo with TiVoToGo better than SageTV for example?


You seem to be under the mistaken impression that we are under some obligation to try to unconvince you from something of which you have already become convinced. Why should we bother? What's in it for us?


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

> nor do I post on SageTV web site as a liar stated here.


You aren't calling a me a liar, are you? 

Okay, so you are saying you aren't joe123 on SageTV's forums? My mistake.

That means you didn't post this:


> Has anyone create the remote defs for using SageTV but with a TiVo remote?
> 
> I have one person in the house who is going through TiVo withdrawls


Or, this one, way back in early January:


> If I get 4 SageTV Media Extenders for 4 TV's in the house, can each TV schedule recordings, playback, live TV, etc?


Sounds kind of like your setup, doesn't it? Another amazing coincidence.

Oh, and you didn't post this:



> That's fair enough $10 bucks. I don't mind spending 10, 20 or $50 bucks if IT IS EASY TO INSTALL AND WORKS.
> 
> So where can I download and get Instructions to install this $10 buck commercials skip software?


Weren't you bragging in *this* thread about the 10 buck commercial skip software?

Oh, yes, here it is:


> There is a nice plug available for $10 bucks to skip commercials.


It is an amazing coincidence that two people who have almost exactly the same user name, who both complain about the noise in the bedrooms problem, and have the same setup, both post on SageTV's and TiVoCommunity forums. It's also interesting that they both bought the same plugin, and both of these people even made the grammatical mistake of using the $ sign with the word "bucks" - and they made the mistake on both forums. In fact, a lot of their grammar mistakes are the same.

Quite the coincidence, I would say. I'm so sorry I lied.

What I do think is funny is how the Joe here is bragging about the greatness of SageTV, but the Joe on the Sage TV forums has been asking for technical help to get it set up properly for an entire month. And still has problems. Why, just today he posted about having a fuzzy picture. I don't think you'll find too many TiVo users who need to consult this forum for an entire month straight to get their systems working.

At least we know you aren't joe123 from that other forum, because he seems pretty clueless when it comes to media rooms and the like.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)




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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> When using the MediaMVP with TiVo, can you schedule which shows to record from the MVP with TiVo?


No, I don't think so.



> Can you delete the recording once done watching or archive them if not?


Umm... the recording on the PC, yes (right?). The one on the TiVo, no.



> Your approach sounds like a around about way to get a movie from TiVO into your pc, having to conver it, then watching it. For that, you might as well as bypass TiVo since that is the whole purpose of MVP and no subscription fees


I think you confuse me with you. I have no interest in bypassing my subscription-fee-less TiVo.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Oh my Gosh! This thread takes the cake! I've been reading and posting here for 6 plus years and this is new to me.

I don't know if Joe is a troll or not. His explanation seems rational. He seems like a decent guy, and except for his referring to us as cult-like, I find his comments to be civil. There have been THOUSANDS of flame wars on this board over the years and they went on and on.

So long as Joe is civil, even if he is trying the bate and switch routine, his comments are fine with me. He is NOT a troll. Trolls are looking for a fight. Joe doesn't seem to be looking for a fight and I've find his comments informative.

Anyway, we are all adults here. If you are offended by the thread, why are you reading it!?!?!

...Dale

P.S. Now will someone please remind me when the next Tivo sleep-deprivation, inculcation ceremony will take place? I don't want to miss it!


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

Dajad said:


> So long as Joe is civil, even if he is trying the bate and switch routine, his comments are fine with me. He is NOT a troll.


Ahhh....but this is the subtlety that is Joe. He is civil. His civility and professed love for Tivo is designed to bring you to the glory that is SageTV. 

Really, I have no problem with somebody posting their experiences with another product here - and nobody should be - it's not against any rules. It's just the phony subject line, the "I love TiVo *but*" nature of his posts that got my hackles up.

And, trolls aren't only looking for a fight, they are looking for attention and controversy - which I admittedly gave the dude. 

His comments are fine with me too, as a moderator. I didn't close the thread (or change the subject line) and because it's been civil, it stays. But, he has so clearly posted on TC to pimp Sage TV that it would be remiss of any of us to not comment on it.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to the Mac forums to discuss the glory that is Windows.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Dajad said:


> Oh my Gosh! This thread takes the cake! I've been reading and posting here for 6 plus years and this is new to me.
> 
> I don't know if Joe is a troll or not. His explanation seems rational. He seems like a decent guy, and except for his referring to us as cult-like, I find his comments to be civil. There have been THOUSANDS of flame wars on this board over the years and they went on and on.
> 
> ...


Hi Dale,
Haven't read your posts in a while. Why are you surprised about troll name calling? Being on this board for over 6 year don't you know that this is a favorite sport for new TiVo converts? I miss good old times when people used to discuss things here instead going on the attack on any new poster who doesn't happen to go to the same "Church of TiVo". I happen to agree with OP - TiVo software is dated and it hasn't been any significant improvement in TiVo functionality as PVR in years. I don't know anything about Sage and have no desire to mess with computer software just to record and watch TV, but I could name several TiVo shortcomings as to compare with other DVRs (can I say FSI ). Does it make me a troll? I love it when another newly appointed priest of "church of TiVo" discovers that I live in Littleton and makes connection to E*. FBI should read this board to find new recruits.  It is very suspicious that yet another TiVo user discovered that Series 2 is too noisy for the bedroom. Too much of the coincidence, especially because his name Joe is such a rare name. I imagine what these people would say if they had an opportunity to read my early posts. How could the guy who was in love with TiVo become so critical of TiVo 6 years later? He must been playing bate and switch just to get an attention. 
To OP:
It is very fortunate for you that there are so many choices now for DVR functionality. If Sage works for you better than TiVo it is great. Ignore voices of insanity and keep posting here. Majority of users here are open minded and would like to hear about new advances in DVR technology. I personally found your posts very informative and civil. I can understand your excitement and wish you good luck with your new toy


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

samo said:


> To OP:
> It is very fortunate for you that there are so many choices now for DVR functionality. If Sage works for you better than TiVo it is great. Ignore voices of insanity and keep posting here. Majority of users here are open minded and would like to hear about new advances in DVR technology. I personally found your posts very informative and civil. I can understand your excitement and wish you good luck with your new toy


HEAR, HEAR!!! :up:

You know what I find funny about this thread? The fact that some of the long time forum users have researched where this guy has posted and what he has posted about. This causes me to start humming on old Styx song in my head. You know the one. Everybody sing with me now!!!! _*T-T-T-Too much....*_ oh, nevermind.  



ZeoTiVo said:


> You are a really bad shill and have actually done damage to the reputation of sage TV with your babbling posts


_*spews Dr. Pepper all over monitor*_

OMG!!! ROFL!!!!!!! Hey, let's have TiVo hire you, and the other TiVolytes here, as their new marketing team. IMO, you do more harm to the TiVo brand than you think. You folks insult and shoo away anyone who doesn't jump on the TiVo bandwagon right away. The term "troll" gets thrown around so loosely here, that it's hard to keep count on how many times it's been said. Potential TiVo customers see this and shy away. If I were a TiVo rep, I'd make note of this. 

...


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Fixer said:


> HEAR, HEAR!!! :up:
> 
> You know what I find funny about this thread? The fact that some of the long time forum users have researched where this guy has posted and what he has posted about. This causes me to start humming on old Styx song in my head. You know the one. Everybody sing with me now!!!! _*T-T-T-Too much....*_ oh, nevermind.


It takes about ten seconds to look up a user name on another forum's search function (or google) and it was a mod who initially did the "research"; as a former mod of another community similiar to TC, I would totally have done the same in her place. Investigating suspect posters is part of the job. She also acknowledges that he isn't breaking any rules and has not censored him or otherwise used her modding abilities.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

gonzotek said:


> Investigating suspect posters is part of the job.


What exactly is he "suspected" of??

BTW, I was trying to generalize it, and not point fingers at the mod. I've seen this tactic from ordinary members in many other threads. That's sort of what I was trying to get across. 

...


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

Fixer said:


> What exactly is he "suspected" of??
> ...


Read his first post. His first post on this forum, by the way.

He is not asking any questions about Tivo. His subject seems to say how great Tivo is, and how he can't live without it. After that first paragraph, all he does is talk about how SageTV is a superior product and TiVo sucks and he's getting rid of it.

Why would you come to a TiVo forum merely to post about how it sucks? Even politely, isn't that considered trolling?

Try going to the volkswagon forums and in your first post, tell them how you had a VW, but you couldn't get it to go fast enough, and it was ugly and noisy, and besides, there is a much better car out there anyway, a civic, and the civic can do this that the VW can't, and the civic is cheaper, and the civic solves all your problems...... Even said politely, it's a troll on a VW forum. Going to a specific community to bash that product, politely or not, is ALWAYS going to be met with suspicion.

I thought it was clever spam for SageTV, at first. I checked his registration to see where he came from. No SageTV match. I also googled Sage TV, and found his posts on their forum - all of which took less than three minutes. Ah, he's just a troll.

Yes, he did troll politely, (at least until he started calling people liars and cult members) and that's why the thread is still open, but troll he did. He's not suspected of being a troll, he IS a troll, knowingly or not. 

Like I said this thread is moving along. If you want to debate the merits of SageTV vs. TiVo, feel free. I just thought people who don't read between the lines well should know that the OP is not the TiVo lover he claims to be in his subject line or in his masked posts.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

Well, I decided to do what you did and check his other posts. I do not perceive him to be a "troll". In other threads, he makes mention of a "home PVR setup", but doesn't mention SageTV specifically. In fact, this is the only thread in which it is mentioned. So, is he a plant to pimp SageTV? No. Is he a "troll" for comparing TiVo to SageTV, and preferring SageTV? No. BTW, this is the first time I've ever heard the phrase "troll politely". 

After reading through the entire thread, the fact that you folks actually give a damn about post counts, be it here or elsewhere, is truly pathetic. Also, quoting someones post from another forum, whether they're his or not, in an attempt to shame him, is closer to the definition of a troll, IMO. This only adds to the "cult mentality" feeling that some sense around here.

When I started lurking here around two years ago, things seemed pretty rational. Now, anytime anyone says anything negative about TiVo, there's always a high post count member ready to bite their head off, discredit what they have to say, or outright call them a "troll". If I were a brand new member to this community, and saw this thread, I would think that TCF is not the place that tends to welcome "outlanders".

...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

So what do you think his intentions were, with a thread title that misrepresented his views, and with content that praises SageTV at the expense of TiVo, on a TiVo messageboard?

I don't have any objections to the thread, I like different viewpoints, and it's been civil, with some good information. No harm done. But it sure seems like trolling to me.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Fixer said:


> When I started lurking here around two years ago, things seemed pretty rational. Now, anytime anyone says anything negative about TiVo, there's always a high post count member ready to bite their head off, discredit what they have to say, or outright call them a "troll". If I were a brand new member to this community, and saw this thread, I would think that TCF is not the place that tends to welcome "outlanders".


I've been here for around 6 years and I think the trend towards calling people trolls has lessened quite a bit. Most long timers have moved on to other subforums like the happy hour or other non-TCF forums and occasionally make statements about how they don't go back to the coffee house because it's so "whiney" now.

It seems to me that you started to notice this the day you found out about ads on your TiVo and tried to convince everyone to join you. Trouble is, you were using the exact same arguments that had been used 3 years earlier so you didn't get much traction.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Fixer said:


> _*spews Dr. Pepper all over monitor*_
> 
> OMG!!! ROFL!!!!!!! Hey, let's have TiVo hire you, and the other TiVolytes here, as their new marketing team. IMO, you do more harm to the TiVo brand than you think. You folks insult and shoo away anyone who doesn't jump on the TiVo bandwagon right away. The term "troll" gets thrown around so loosely here, that it's hard to keep count on how many times it's been said. Potential TiVo customers see this and shy away. If I were a TiVo rep, I'd make note of this.
> 
> ...


I did not call him a troll but a bad shill. A shill does not have to be employed by or paid by the company to be a shill. Money is the normal motivation but there are others, he apperently has fallen in love with SageTV and wants to promote it far and wide even on other forums about other products. I could see he knew about and liked SageTV just Like I know about and like TiVo. That part is fine. If he had come on the board openly and honestly and said he liked sageTV and then did his point by point that would have been a non-shill, lets talk about it post.

He showed his true colors right off the bat by obfuscating his true intentions. Then he says somebody is a liar and does not mention the USerID he very well knew to try and avoid the evidence he posted on the sageTV forum. no rebuttal, no denial.

then he makes his points and repeats them despite counterpoints so he can keep on doing his sageTV is better thing without annoying interruptions like actually debating the idea, or acknowledging you do include the expense of the PC and the time involved by anyone in setting up adn troubleshooting such a system. This is clearly not a debate on his part but a way to promote SageTV and all its good points on other forums. Now some have found value in sageTV info and the Media extender info. Good can come from anything.

all of this leads to a very bad track record in his posting here and if you want to defend such a user then have fun with that.

I still satnd by an early quote of mine in this thread


ZeoTiVo said:


> so either approach is valid but you loose a lot of credibility for me with all the stretches you take in your posts. if you like sage more than why hang here ?


 Perhaps joe123j would like to answer that question directly?


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

dgh said:


> I've been here for around 6 years and I think the trend towards calling people trolls has lessened quite a bit. Most long timers have moved on to other subforums like the happy hour or other non-TCF forums and occasionally make statements about how they don't go back to the coffee house because it's so "whiney" now.


If you notice, I never enter the "off-topic" sections, so I wouldn't know what "long timers" are saying. I'm here to discuss TiVo, or anything relevant to TiVo, pro or con. That's what this site is for, right?



dgh said:


> It seems to me that you started to notice this the day you found out about ads on your TiVo and tried to convince everyone to join you. Trouble is, you were using the exact same arguments that had been used 3 years earlier so you didn't get much traction.


You seem to know a lot about me and what I've commented on around here. Did you have a good time looking at my "View all posts" link? You proved one of my points right there. 



ZeoTiVo said:


> ...Then he says somebody is a liar and does not mention the USerID he very well knew to try and avoid the evidence he posted on the sageTV forum.


Again, point proven. You guys act like you're an internet CSI unit or something. This kind of action is quite hilarious. Have fun with your "investigation". LOL!! 

...


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Fixer said:


> If you notice, I never enter the "off-topic" sections, so I wouldn't know what "long timers" are saying. I'm here to discuss TiVo, or anything relevant to TiVo, pro or con. That's what this site is for, right?


I thought the site was named tivo*Community*.com, not tivo*ProOrCon*.com.

/edit: By that I mean pro *and* con discussion is certainly a not-insignifcant part, but not the whole, of the site.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Fixer said:


> You proved one of my points right there.


Wait... You have a point now? Lately, I thought you just did complain and runs on whatever thread was handy.

No I didn't have to look you up. I've been around. Like gonzotek said it's a community. I've read enough of your posts that I pretty much know what's coming when I see your name. The more generic and predictable you make your complaints, the less impact they have.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

dgh said:


> I've read enough of your posts that I pretty much know what's coming when I see your name. The more generic and predictable you make your complaints, the less impact they have.


You know what even more pitiful? The exact same thing can be said about you, Zeo, and a few others around here. Anytime someone shows the least bit of negative sentiment towards the precious TiVo, I know exactly who's going to chime in with their generic "TiVo is great, TiVo can do no wrong, you're just a troll" rhetoric. 



gonzotek said:


> I thought the site was named tivo*Community*.com, not tivo*ProOrCon*.com.
> 
> /edit: By that I mean pro and con discussion is certainly a not-insignifcant part, but not the whole, of the site.


Well, I'm here to talk about TiVo only, not look for "get togethers" or the like. TiVo is a CE product, not a culture. I know there's quite a few that have turned it into one, and that's their business. I choose not to follow it.

...


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

There's also discussion about television and movies(which is the reason 99.9% of us have any kind of DVR at all), discussion of other video hardware and software related to TiVo, and support for new and advanced users alike. If a user is having a negative experience with TiVo, and comes here saying as much, but still *asking for help*, he or she is probably going to get it, and quickly. Espcially if they use the help forum or section specific to their hardware. You choose to take part in only a small part of what the site and community has to offer; like you said, that's your business. You don't have to be a member of 'the cult' to enjoy a good Lost discussion on thursday morning, or get tips on video conversion from people working with the same tools, or ask for upgrade advice. TiVo doesn't run the site, and the people that do see it as a community, not a corporate mouthpiece nor merely a support device. Yes, there are a LOT of people who think TiVo is great, and a few who think TiVo can do no wrong, but they are by far in the minority. You'll get the same results with any sizable community(religous, political, social, etc.). Most here can admit that TiVo has its issues and can name the faults they see with the company and the hardware.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

gonzotek said:


> There's also discussion about television and movies(which is the reason 99.9% of us have any kind of DVR at all), discussion of other video hardware and software related to TiVo, and support for new and advanced users alike. If a user is having a negative experience with TiVo, and comes here saying as much, but still *asking for help*, he or she is probably going to get it, and quickly. Espcially if they use the help forum or section specific to their hardware. You choose to take part in only a small part of what the site and community has to offer; like you said, that's your business. You don't have to be a member of 'the cult' to enjoy a good Lost discussion on thursday morning, or get tips on video conversion from people working with the same tools, or ask for upgrade advice. TiVo doesn't run the site, and the people that do see it as a community, not a corporate mouthpiece nor merely a support device. Yes, there are a LOT of people who think TiVo is great, and a few who think TiVo can do no wrong, but they are by far in the minority. You'll get the same results with any sizable community(religous, political, social, etc.). Most here can admit that TiVo has its issues and can name the faults they see with the company and the hardware.


This is the most sensible post of the whole thread. Thank you. :up: 

With that said, I will now exit this discussion. 

...


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Fixer said:


> You know what even more pitiful?


No, what even more pitiful? 



Fixer said:


> I know exactly who's going to chime in with their generic "TiVo is great, TiVo can do no wrong, you're just a troll" rhetoric.


Ah yes - Fixer. But I already mentioned that.


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

Fixer said:


> Well, I'm here to talk about TiVo only.
> ...


So what are you doing in a thread devoted to SageTV -- or, were you mislead by the title


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

samo said:


> To OP:
> It is very fortunate for you that there are so many choices now for DVR functionality. If Sage works for you better than TiVo it is great. Ignore voices of insanity and keep posting here. Majority of users here are open minded and would like to hear about new advances in DVR technology. I personally found your posts very informative and civil. I can understand your excitement and wish you good luck with your new toy


 Thank you!

You know, I have been attacked in so many different ways and the moderator keeps lying about me posting in other places like SageTV, that as a new person here, it is truly pathetic seeing how desperate some folks are ( very cult like atmosphere ).

Even if I post in other DRV places like SageTV (which I already explained I don't), I am amazed at how much fear some people here have about TiVo competition.

Also, I already stated that the subject like can be changed if it helps any.

Now, I still have the TiVo box like I explained before and I am honestly looking to see if it's worth keeping *COMPARED* (yes, read that again, COMPARED) to other solutions out there. I am looking at the pro's and con's and I have yet to have anybody pro-TiVo or not defend TiVo on a line-by-line list of pro's and con's compared to say SageTV.

Yes, no solution is perfect - nothing in life is. We can, however, create a list of pro's and con's and then sit back and see which one stands out more. Also, I keep seeing some posts here saying they tried SageTV and by their posts, they know nothing about how it works.

I have tried TiVo and TiVoToGo. I have tried SageTV, BeyondTV and many other free solutions. For the small money, SageTV is an amazing although not perfect solution. Others come close.

I also keep seeing posts here about the expense of a PC not being factored in. Again, I am interested in the TiVoToGo features just like many TiVo fans adore. For TiVoToGo to work, you *MUST* have a PC folks. Not only must you have a PC, you must also have an extra hardware/PC running which is the TiVo box.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

joe123j said:


> Even if I post in other DRV places like SageTV (which I already explained I don't),


Heh heh. [6 year old voice]I didn't break the window. Some new kid did. Even if I did break the window, which I didn't, you shouldn't punish me because it was some new kid's fault if I had broken it, which I didn't.[/6 year old voice]


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Fixer said:


> After reading through the entire thread, the fact that you folks actually give a damn about post counts, be it here or elsewhere, is truly pathetic. Also, quoting someones post from another forum, whether they're his or not, in an attempt to shame him, is closer to the definition of a troll, IMO. This only adds to the "cult mentality" feeling that some sense around here.
> ...


Yeah, I got a laugh  when I read that the moderator went out and got some postings from other places to posted them here and try to link me to them. It must have taken quite a bit of time pasting all those comments.

As for the cult mentality - absolutely! The way I have been attacked by the moderator with lies is in my opinion a blessing! She certaintly proves my point that I feel as if I jumped into a cult. Again, even if she was correct, it does not prove one thing or another with respect to TiVo.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

dgh said:


> Heh heh. [6 year old voice]I didn't break the window. Some new kid did. Even if I did break the window, which I didn't, you shouldn't punish me because it was some new kid's fault if I had broken it, which I didn't.[/6 year old voice]


Ah, Mr. Papa, do you care to move on now and talk about TiVo's pros and cons, or is that too childish too?


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

joe123j said:


> Ah, Mr. Papa, do you care to move on now and talk about TiVo's pros and cons, or is that too childish too?


[6 year old voice]Besides, the window isn't important. It's just a stupid old window, which I didn't break.[/6 year old voice]


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Fixer said:


> Again, point proven. You guys act like you're an internet CSI unit or something. This kind of action is quite hilarious. Have fun with your "investigation". LOL!!
> ...


Watch out! Next thing you know, they will say that you are me, or is it that I am you? 

My goodness people, is TiVo that weak that you cannot talk about the merits of the product itself but must resort to attacking posters? Or worse yet, acting like children who cannot respond to honest legitimate questions?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

So you joe123j is not the same joe123 that posts on the SageTV board, using the same language and the same setup at home? Honestly?

That is a truly amazing coincidence. Really. What are the chances of that? Or are you just lying to save face? Personally, I know what I find more likely.

As for a list of pro/cons, this thread started out being about that, and it was discussed pretty thoroughly.

You like SageTV more. Others like TiVo more. You seem to know the ins and outs of both solutions. What exactly is it about this dead horse that makes you want to beat it into the ground? Are you not satisifed until everyone bows down and says "You're right, I must switch to SageTV"?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Or worse yet, acting like children who cannot respond to honest legitimate questions?


Which questions of yours, about TiVo and/or SageTV have not been answered?


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

MickeS said:


> Which questions of yours, about TiVo and/or SageTV have not been answered?


I am honestly trying to see if I should keep my TiVo (with TiVoToGO setup).

I am comparing TiVo with SageTV. I have outlined several points SageTV has over TiVo and open that for discussion.

The one person who answered back (was it you), was vauge as best in answering back. Should I re-post the advantages I see with SageTV over TiVo Again?

Let me beat you to some of the answers. I asked if you can add multiple drives to Tivo. Answer was yes - but poster neglected to say that you have to buy a TiVo box for each drive you want. Furthermore, if I want to add 4 400GB drives, I must buy several TiVo's to make up 400GB worth of data AND the subscriptions that go along.

I am looking for a pro & con list. The "pro" list above is not valid since it is not realistic - again, having to buy probably 11 TiVo's to make up 400GB of storage is not a pro in my opinion or others evaluating TiVo.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

joe123j said:


> Or worse yet, acting like children who cannot respond to honest legitimate questions?


You don't have a lot of credibility in the honesty and legitimacy departments.

Besides, your desire to have some sort of objective comparison of products is silly -- all anyone could do is list the features of the products, and all of that information can be found in the marketing materials. Whether the features represent "pros" or "cons" is entirely subjective. One user may love one system's flexibility while another may hate its complexity. One user may find Windows' instability a minor issue while another finds it utterly unacceptable. Many people find TiVo's interface intuitive and elegant, others find it gaudy and deficient of features. There is a reason that there is more than one product out there. You might as well as for an objective comparison of a Honda Civic and a Lexus RX400. (The Honda's TCO is lower, so it must be the right choice...)


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

joe123j said:


> Let me beat you to some of the answers. I asked if you can add multiple drives to Tivo. Answer was yes - but poster neglected to say that you have to buy a TiVo box for each drive you want. Furthermore, if I want to add 4 400GB drives, I must buy several TiVo's to make up 400GB worth of data AND the subscriptions that go along.


I think you misunderstood. A single TiVo running current system software can support 2 drives with a maximun capacity of 144 petabytes (according to here, lba48 specs allow for maximum 144 petabytes). Obviously, no one is manufacturing consumer drives at those sizes, but you could easily stick 2 500GB drives in and get a terabyte-capable TiVo.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

joe123j said:


> I asked if you can add multiple drives to Tivo. Answer was yes - but poster neglected to say that you have to buy a TiVo box for each drive you want. Furthermore, if I want to add 4 400GB drives, I must buy several TiVo's to make up 400GB worth of data AND the subscriptions that go along.


AFAIK, a single Tivo box can have 1 additional HD mounted inside it with a special kit. How large each drive can be I am not sure, but weakness (and other sites) can probably tell you that answer.

http://www.weaknees.com/upgrades.php

Edit: yeah, what he said.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Should I re-post the advantages I see with SageTV over TiVo Again?


No. Why should you? I have no interest in trying to convince you to change your mind. If they are advantages to you, who am I to say that they shouldn't be? Or that you should not put as much weight on those features as on other aspects? It's up to you. Plus, I think those advantages were discussed already?



> Let me beat you to some of the answers. I asked if you can add multiple drives to Tivo. Answer was yes - but poster neglected to say that you have to buy a TiVo box for each drive you want. Furthermore, if I want to add 4 400GB drives, I must buy several TiVo's to make up 400GB worth of data AND the subscriptions that go along.


It really seems like what you want is not answers, but affirmation that SageTV is better, and that we all should agree.

But I'll answer: You can, today, buy a 40hr TiVo and replace the 1 drive in it with 2 500GB drives. Thus, the maximum internal capacity of a TiVo today for a consumer is 1 Terabyte.

If all you want to do is add archiving space, and not directly accessible recording space, you can add as much external/internal HDs to your PC as your wallet permits, and store using TTG. The speed advantage, and encryption advantage, of SageTV regarding this has already been covered.



> The "pro" list above is not valid since it is not realistic - again, having to buy probably 11 TiVo's to make up 400GB of storage is not a pro in my opinion or others evaluating TiVo.


See above. You do not need more than one TiVo to have 2.5 times that capacity.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

joe123j said:


> I am looking for a pro & con list. The "pro" list above is not valid since it is not realistic - again, having to buy probably 11 TiVo's to make up 400GB of storage is not a pro in my opinion or others evaluating TiVo.


You post things like this and then you wonder why no one wants to play with you. I'd correct this bizarre misconception, but I see that in another thread you've been told at least a half dozen times that changing the disk in a TiVo box has no effect on the lifetime subscription on the box, and you flat-out refuse to accept the answer, so I'd be wasting my time to try to explain anything to you. (Or am I a liar because that isn't you, it is some other joe123 on TCF?)

You already know everything and nobody can tell you anything. Just make your decision and be done with it.

(Except, at the beginning of this thread you had already cancelled your TiVo service and decided to take the box back, so I'm not sure what decision you are trying to make.)


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

joe123j said:


> My goodness people, is TiVo that weak that you cannot talk about the merits of the product itself but must resort to attacking posters? Or worse yet, acting like children who cannot respond to honest legitimate questions?


Let me summarize this thread and try to put this issue to bed.
You came here and told everybody that TiVo is amazing product, you never knew that product like this existed. It opened your eyes and you started looking around for a similar products. You found Sage and on a surface it looks like it has more features than TiVo does. You only have 30 days to return TiVo, so you asked experts on TiVo if you are missing something. Lets ignore CSI part of the thread. Question still stands - is there anything about TiVo you are missing that could convince you to keep TiVo instead of Sage?
Short answer - NO.
Long answer - maybe.
For your specific needs it appears that Sage is better product. But for many people, myself included, TiVo has some advantages. Let me illustrate my point by explaining what advantages TiVo has for me. I couldn't care less about Tivo2go or networking TiVo with my computers. If ones in a blue moon I need to archive something from TiVo, I just use my SA DVD recorder. All my photos are on DVD albums and I don't use TV to listen to the music. I don't need to transfer shows from one unit to another, I have plenty of DVRs and storage space. The advantage TiVo has for me is that TiVo is out-of-the-box solution. I don't have a luxury of spending time to set up and/or use computer software for simple task of watching TV. I'm sure that other users could give you multiple reasons why they prefer TiVo to Sage, but these reasons most likely will not be applicable to your situation. There are no obvious advantages to use TiVo over ANY other DVR solution. This is why 80% of DVR users do not use TiVo. It all boils down to personal preference and/or situation.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

MickeS said:


> But I'll answer: You can, today, buy a 40hr TiVo and replace the 1 drive in it with 2 500GB drives. Thus, the maximum internal capacity of a TiVo today for a consumer is 1 Terabyte..


That sounds fantastic! Now, If I get the Lifetime Subscription and I upgrade my TiVo box like you say, will I be in breach of contract with TiVo for doing this with respect to my lifetime subscription and/or warranty?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)




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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

_Check mate._


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

joe123j said:


> That sounds fantastic! Now, If I get the Lifetime Subscription and I upgrade my TiVo box like you say, will I be in breach of contract with TiVo for doing this with respect to my lifetime subscription and/or warranty?


You would be in breach of both. Everyone else in the world would be in breach of the warranty, but their lifetime service on the box would remain in effect.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> but their lifetime service on the box would remain in effect.


You are in breach of contract which means NO, the lifetime service would not be gurantee to stay in effect, again because you are in breach of contract for doing something they are telling you not to do.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

joe123j said:


> ...for doing something they are telling you not to do.


 Actually the language of the contract states that you* can *do it and you can keep lifetime, but it would breach the contract and therefore TiVo reserves the right to terminate service.  Seriously, I think TiVo should consider rewording that specific verbiage for better clarity.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

joe123j said:


> You are in breach of contract which means NO, the lifetime service would not be gurantee to stay in effect, again because you are in breach of contract for doing something they are telling you not to do.


No, the language of contract says you would be in breach, which is not the same as actually being in breach. The language also says that the lifetime service stays with the box and remains in effect if you upgrade. So what does that mean, you are in breach but the box isn't? TiVo won't give you service, but if you sell the box to someone else (who didn't upgrade it), they can have the service?

The reality of the situation is that TiVo has not only tolerated drive upgrades for five or six years now, they've actually supported it in software. And they have done absolutely nothing to enforce that ambiguous clause in the contract. At this point it is utterly unenforceable, and there is zero -- I repeat ZERO -- risk to anyone's lifetime subscription if they upgrade the drive.

Everyone except you. You can't do it. Stick with Sage.


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## mbalgeman (Feb 6, 2002)

So here's what you want to do:
Buy 2 40-hr TiVos with Lifetime service. Cost: $350 * 2. Buy yourself something like this: http://www.smarthome.com/7717.html for $150. And you have yourself 2 tuners available on all the TVs in your house for $850 + random small costs.

The 4 MediaMVPs that you want to buy at $99 plus the $250 for the SageTV Tuner card and server = $650.

Now you could upgrade the TiVo's to 2 * 500GB drives each, but since you would be doing the same in the computer, that's a wash.

And then you can have Galleon setup to automatically download series that you will be interested in to your computer. Then the TiVoToGo download rates don't matter.

So the cost is really $850 for a 2 tuner TiVo system with access to both TiVos at all TVs in the house vs $650 for a single tuner SageTV system. If all you cared about was a single tuner, bring the cost of the TiVo system down to $500 (which, BTW, is $150 less than the cost of your "cheaper" SageTV solution) with no monthly costs or $200 + $13 a month.

So here's your list of things solved in this thread:
- Cannot add multiple Tunners ( recording conflicts )
- Cannot add multiple disk drives ( expand recording capacity )
- Cannot cheaply expand TiVo to entire house ( whole house PVR ).
- No way to view local Weather info
- No way to view local traffic maps
- Slow transfer speeds between PC and TiVO with TiVoTogo

And here's your list of things not solved:
- No HD (High Definition) recording with curren TiVos.

And here's your list of things that don't really matter or I don't understand:
- No Commercial detection / skipping 
While it would be nice, it's not really that big of an issue once you spend some with fast forward and/or 30 second skip.
- $300 bucks for EPG data which is free elsewhere.
Included in the costs above...
- TV Recordings are encryted in TiVo files
And then? The encryption is insanely easy to remove. There are even programs that will remove the encryption automatically after download the program automatically and then convert the file to the format that you want.
- No Movie Database search ( IMDB Data base search )
That's what your computer is for... Or does SageTV have some sort of integrated IMDB lookup or something?
- No way to see who is calling you ( Caller ID )
Sure. SageTV can do this? And who has a phone line plugged into their computer anymore? 
- No way to change the menus
What's the point of changing menus?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

mbalgeman said:


> Buy 2 40-hr TiVos with Lifetime service. Cost: $350 * 2.


TiVos are $19.95 (AR) at CompUSA and Best Buy these days. So knock $60 off your system price.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

mbalgeman said:


> So here's what you want to do:
> Buy 2 40-hr TiVos with Lifetime service. Cost: $350 * 2. Buy yourself something like this: http://www.smarthome.com/7717.html for $150. And you have yourself 2 tuners available on all the TVs in your house for $850 + random small costs.
> .


So with the TiVo route and the smarthome prodcut you outlined, Will I be able to:
- Able to watch 5 different recordings on my 5 TV's all at once?
- Set recordings from any of my 5 TV's in my house? 
- Search for movies to watch/record from any of the 5 TV's?

You said adding drives was a wash. If I want to stay legit with TiVo, I need to add drives using their services or agents they blessed. Not a wash.

I can add 5 tuners at $50 a piece like I can do with SageTV. How much more is it to have 5 tuners in 2 TiVO boxes?

I belive the answer to all of the above is a big NO.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

joe123j said:


> So with the TiVo route and the smarthome prodcut you outlined, Will I be able to:
> - Able to watch 5 different recordings on my 5 TV's all at once?
> - Set recordings from any of my 5 TV's in my house?
> - Search for movies to watch/record from any of the 5 TV's?
> ...


How much bandwidth would streaming to all 5 tvs at once require? Can your network provide that or is it possible you would get stuttering or some kind of sub-optimal playback?


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

justapixel said:


> Read his first post. His first post on this forum, by the way.
> 
> He is not asking any questions about Tivo. His subject seems to say how great Tivo is, and how he can't live without it. After that first paragraph, all he does is talk about how SageTV is a superior product and TiVo sucks and he's getting rid of it...


Should this have been our first clue something was wrong?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

joe123j said:


> I can add 5 tuners at $50 a piece like I can do with SageTV. How much more is it to have 5 tuners in 2 TiVO boxes?


I, too, want 5 tuners so I can record five shows at the same time, but I have digital cable. Can you configure a system for me? I've priced out the IR blasters at $50 each, and I assume we'll use the USB ones since it's hard to find 5 serial ports these days. But I think we'll need more USB ports, so maybe another $50 for a decent port extender. Now you're saying that the 5 tuners all go in the same PC, right? I'm going to look for a machine with five available slots. (Dual-tuner cards would be nice, but they're more expensive than single, and I don't see any with two composite inputs (and why no S-video?) -- maybe you can find something that will work.) That's all I'll need, right? And the same PC can independently control the 5 IR blasters on the same USB bus, right? Will a single 100 Mb network have enough bandwidth for all of my TVs? Because if I have to add another network adapter, I'll need another slot in the PC and more wiring in the house. And another router. Damn, this is getting complicated. Maybe I should just buy five TiVos, stick them under the cable boxes, and be done with it.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> - Able to watch 5 different recordings on my 5 TV's all at once?


LOL! Now you are getting funny. Do you even have 5 people in your house? I bet you are just a kid with nothing better to do than argue about nothing. Actually I have 12 tuners , 9 outputs and 3 TVs in my house. Never had more than 2 different programs watched at any given time. Can't even imagine how many people you need to have in your household to have a need for 5 different programs at once. Unless you run a dorm or nursing home.


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## mbalgeman (Feb 6, 2002)

Ah, so we came up with a TiVo solution that's cheaper than your SageTV solution and you suddenly change the requirements. How convient!!!!


joe123j said:


> So with the TiVo route and the smarthome prodcut you outlined, Will I be able to:
> - Able to watch 5 different recordings on my 5 TV's all at once?
> - Set recordings from any of my 5 TV's in my house?
> - Search for movies to watch/record from any of the 5 TV's?


No, Yes, Yes. BTW, can you point me to the documentation that show how to use the MediaMVP product to do those second 2? I've looked and I don't think the MediaMVP product does what you think it does. Maybe I'm wrong... But I'd really like to see the documentation to prove it.


> You said adding drives was a wash. If I want to stay legit with TiVo, I need to add drives using their services or agents they blessed. Not a wash.


Completely a wash. There is no additional cost associated with putting a hard drive in a TiVo versus a computer. There a little more time involved and the procedure is documented on these forums, but I'm sure you don't really care and thus won't bother to look. If you are worried about voiding the warrenty, don't worry. You got it from Costco and they'll take anything back!!!



> I can add 5 tuners at $50 a piece like I can do with SageTV. How much more is it to have 5 tuners in 2 TiVO boxes?


And you need 5 tuners to record what exactly? Now you are just expanding your requirements to skew the results in your favor. BTW, take a look at the Support FAQ for the MediaMVP product... Make sure you get those TCP/IP Optimization worked out on your network. If people need to make those optimizations using just 1 MediaMVP with a higher bitrate video clip, I'd have serious doubts about the performance when trying to do 5 streams at the same time.



> I belive the answer to all of the above is a big NO.


 And you are most definately wrong.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

mbalgeman said:


> Completely a wash. There is no additional cost associated with putting a hard drive in a TiVo versus a computer. There a little more time involved and the procedure is documented on these forums, but I'm sure you don't really care and thus won't bother to look. If you are worried about voiding the warrenty, don't worry. You got it from Costco and they'll take anything back!!!


Ah, you must not have been reading this thread for his reasoning here.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

gonzotek said:


> How much bandwidth would streaming to all 5 tvs at once require? Can your network provide that or is it possible you would get stuttering or some kind of sub-optimal playback?


Very little. My friend is streaming 4 TV's just fine over wired network. Looking at my Windows XP network status, it uses about 2-5% bandwidth for the 1 TV I currently have hooked up.

Also, like I said before, no strain on CPU because the MediaMVP are doing the decoding themselfs and all UI functions. The PC is simply sending the file to the MediaMVP who in turns does the MPEG decoding.

To answer the other posts about pro's and con's, there is nothing wrong with having a favorite toy - you may like the TiVo logo and that is fine and you are happy with it.

The arguments that I see here is when TiVo lovers try to defend something that lacks so much when compared to other solutions. My question was about selecting TiVo or not compared to say SageTV which entails for me, having to compared the two. I am open to see if maybe I am missing something with TiVo, so I am asking about certain features.

If you do want to engage in an honest discussion of TiVo verses other solutions, then stick to the facts. Again, if you simply like TiVo because of the moving logo and that is your main criteria why you choose TiVo, then fine. Just say so but don't go on the bandwagon of emmotional roller coaster trying to prove your point by name calling and such child-like acts. These desperate attacks only shows to me and others how just how weak your stand is on this.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

samo said:


> LOL! Now you are getting funny. Do you even have 5 people in your house? I bet you are just a kid with nothing better to do than argue about nothing.


Ruh roh! 

I believe Samo was the last person who was still giving you the benefit of the doubt that parts of your story might not be BS.


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## mbalgeman (Feb 6, 2002)

joe123j said:


> If you do want to engage in an honest discussion of TiVo verses other solutions, then stick to the facts.


So did you find documentation on the MediaMVP that shows how you are able to setup recordings and search IMDB and get caller id information and all the other things you claim it will do, because I can't seem to find anything on the web that will confirm it? Just looking for verification of those "facts".


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Fixer said:


> When I started lurking here around two years ago, things seemed pretty rational. Now, anytime anyone says anything negative about TiVo, there's always a high post count member ready to bite their head off, discredit what they have to say, or outright call them a "troll". If I were a brand new member to this community, and saw this thread, I would think that TCF is not the place that tends to welcome "outlanders".


Being a newbie here myself and witnessing all of this like you have, I think that these TiVo fans don't have much to stand on to defend their arguments now that there are so many better lower costs solutions.

So these TiVo die-hard resort to name calling, personal attacks and lies. This may all seem fine for those in a cult, but let me tell you that any new person evaluating TiVo and reading this, will pick up quickly the smell.

Again, try to stick to the pro's and con's that merits TiVo or not over other solutions now available. For me, as a new person who is evaluating TiVo, I would like to openly address and discuss TiVo's merits or shortfalls so that I can make a sound decision.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

mbalgeman said:


> So did you find documentation on the MediaMVP that shows how you are able to setup recordings and search IMDB and get caller id information and all the other things you claim it will do, because I can't seem to find anything on the web that will confirm it? Just looking for verification of those "facts".


I am evaluating SageTV with MediaMVP. Yes, on the MediaMVP, I am able to search movies, watch movie recordings, watch live TV, setup recordings, search IMDB database, etc - everything that I can do on the Server, I can do through the MediaMVP. I have, however, yet to played with the caller id plugin. The IMDB database plugin search is wonderful in my opinion.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Welcome to the TiVo die-hard cult, Samo!!!!


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

dgh said:


> Welcome to the TiVo die-hard cult, Samo!!!!


And don't forget to keep your heads well below the ground, all will be well in lala land.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Yeah, don't forget that, Samo!! 

Initiation is at midnight. Remember: each time you're whacked on the butt, the appropriate response is: "Thank you sir, may I have another!"


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

Alright. I'll bite.

Joe123, you stated this was a "trow away" PC (I think you meant throw away). I've got one of those and it is not even XP compatible and I know it won't support the processing power you so wrongly underestimate. You will be bringing your PC to it's knees unless it's some screamer which makes me wonder why it would be throw away in the first place.

I've got 3 people in my house with 2 desktop PC's and 1 laptop and they are often used at the same time. I can't imagine throwing one of them away.

As for Sage TV, I have no experience, but... I did look into the new media centers that HP has and read some of the reviews. The reviews on the concept were glowing. The BIG problem that practically every review kept pointing out was after all the glowing comments, you are often reminded that it is just a PC that gets unstable after some time without a reboot. It locks up, stutters and misses programs when this happens. I, for one, would be drawn and quartered if my Tivo missed any recording my wife or daughter was waiting on.

I've got better things to do than tinker with a PC and cross my fingers and hope it keeps running. I'm wondering how you have all the time to be posting here anyway.

Enjoy your PC. You can now retort, but I am done.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jtreid said:


> Joe123, you stated this was a "trow away" PC (I think you meant throw away). I've got one of those and it is not even XP compatible and I know it won't support the processing power you so wrongly underestimate. You will be bringing your PC to it's knees unless it's some screamer which makes me wonder why it would be throw away in the first place.


Not so fast. I think most of the work gets done by the encoder card. They have hardware MPEG encoders built-in. But I see your point. Depends on what's one's definition of a throw away pc. I myself am moving to a dual-core. So anything less would be throw away for me.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

greg_burns said:


> Not so fast. I think most of the work gets done by the encoder card. They have hardware MPEG encoders built-in. But I see your point. Depends on what's one's definition of a throw away pc. I myself am moving to a dual-core. So anything less would be throw away for me.


Yeap - I already said it several times, but.... The encoding is done by the tuner card. The decoding is done by the MediaMVP. The only thing the PC is doing, is transfering a file from one location to another, hence, not much CPU work.

Instead of so many assuptions and wondering, just try it for yourself. I got my TiVo on a 30 day trial simply because it was the easiest way for me to experience it and for me to know what it can and cannot do.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Again, try to stick to the pro's and con's that merits TiVo or not over other solutions now available. For me, as a new person who is evaluating TiVo, I would like to openly address and discuss TiVo's merits or shortfalls so that I can make a sound decision.


Nobody here is trying to make you choose TiVo. SageTV sounds like a great solution for you. What is it you don't know yet, that you need to know in order to drop your TiVo subscription? I'm sure we'd all be happy to give you those answers quickly and succinctly.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

dgh said:


> Welcome to the TiVo die-hard cult, Samo!!!!


Sorry I'm already a member of competing cult. You know, OFTKIA - "Old Farts That Know It All".  And I really don't want to pass the judgement on OP and I do agree that for situation he described SAGETV could be better than TiVo. I just think that his argument about watching five programs at once is ridiculously funny. He apparently does not distinguish the difference between recording 5 programs at once and watching 5 programs at once.


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

Oh! and by the way....

I kind of like using the 30-second skip. When your watching something, sometimes a commercial gives you a reminder to get up and go pee or whatever. It keeps something happening on the TV for the rest of the people when I do have to get up. If it were an automatic commercial skip, I think the others sitting there would not want to watch a paused picture while I took care of my bidness.

So there! There's a comparison of a feature that you posed.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

samo said:


> He apparently does not distinguish the difference between recording 5 programs at once and watching 5 programs at once.


I have never seen so many assumptions so wrong as there are here.

You can get multiple tunners for the PC. PCI or USB based tunners. Each of my 5 TV's can use a tuner per TV to watch live TV on the MediaMVP. Or each of the 5 TV's can be watching a different or same recording on each TV. Or a mixture.

Not only do I know the difference, I have seen it.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

joe123j said:


> I have never seen so many assumptions so wrong as there are here.


Hey "Joe",

Since you're not the joe123 who posts on the SageTV forums, I recommend that you go over there and talk to him. After all he has an identical situation:

Has SageTV, MVP and TiVo
Decided to cancel TiVo (for the same reason and on the same day as you)
Has the same big pile of TVs
Has all the exact same issues as you
Uses the exact same language style - errors and all
Has the same name

I mean, if anyone can tell you pros and cons about these systems in a way that you can understand, he can. He also seems to be aware of quite a few SageTV problems that you aren't. I'll bet that if you ask him where he lives, you won't have to travel far meet him.

I can tell from the other joe123's posts that SageTV is not for me, but if it's for you - great! This TiVo cultist is in no way trying to change the decision that you already made in post #1 of this thread and that the other joe123 said he made on the same day for the same reason in the SageTV forum. I think both you and most of us cultists can be happy with your decision.


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

dgh said:


> Hey "Joe",
> 
> Since you're not the joe123 who posts on the SageTV forums, I recommend that you go over there and talk to him. After all he has an identical situation:
> 
> ...


I think this has to be one of the funniest threads I've read in a long time....and who says nothing good ever came of shills and trolls? Oh, my aching sides....


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Dear Joe:

You've convinced me. You should return your TiVo and live happily ever after with your SageTV.

Good-bye, now.

pdh


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

joe123j said:


> I have never seen so many assumptions so wrong as there are here.
> 
> You can get multiple tunners for the PC. PCI or USB based tunners. Each of my 5 TV's can use a tuner per TV to watch live TV on the MediaMVP. Or each of the 5 TV's can be watching a different or same recording on each TV. Or a mixture.
> 
> Not only do I know the difference, I have seen it.


You see. You just proved that you don't understand the difference. Let me try it once more. If you have 15 cars and 3 drivers in your household you can only drive 3 cars at the time. If you have 5 TVs and 2 people, you can only watch 2 Tvs at a time. In my household we watch TV together most of the time. I don't recall that we had more than 2 TVs on at any given time in past 20 years. I don't recall a single instance that I needed to record more than 5 channels at any given time. That means that 3 dual tuner satellite DVRs would take care of any possible combination of recording and/or watching live for me. If your requirement is to be able to record 5 programs at a time, it may be overkill but not unreasonable. But requiring to watch 5 different programs at once requires you to have substantially higher demands on your system without real benefit. For example if you only need to watch 2 TVs at a time, you can have 2 dual tuner DVRs from satellite or cable company for much less than 4 tuner solution will cost you from either SA TiVo or SageTV. You may have to spend some time to figure out the best way to distribute the signal, but you don't have to have separate output for every TV.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

samo said:


> You see. You just proved that you don't understand the difference. [Stuff deleted.]


Stop trying to make sense, samo. Joe and I want to watch five TVs simultaneously and you can't tell us otherwise. In my case, the TVs are in five different rooms, but I have a system of mirrors by which I can watch them all simultaneously, which I sometimes do when I'm in "the zone."

Joe is going to help me configure my five digital cable boxes to work with SageTV. I'm still looking for a good deal on the computer. It turns out that five spare USB ports isn't that difficult to find, but five spare PCI slots adds some complexity to the search. I'm worried that it is all going to cost a lot, and then in a few months I'll want something new, like cable HD. But I'm sure I'll be able to sell all of this stuff for what I paid for it, like I can with a lifetime TiVo, right Joe?


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

joe123j said:


> Thank you!
> 
> You know, I have been attacked in so many different ways and the moderator keeps lying about me posting ....


Well, Joe, you had the benefit of my doubt until you REPEATED your claim that justapixel is lieing. I thought your first statement with respect to her "lying" was a grammar error. But you are clearly now calling her a liar.

Sorry, but that is NOT civil. You may claim she is mistaken and explain why. But you have not done so. She makes a convincing case and the fact that you have NO response to her valid concerns other than to name-call implies to me that she is correct.

Sorry buddy ... calling a genuinely nice person and an EXTREMELY valued member of this community a liar is NOT appropriate, not to mention lacking in class!

If she closes this thread now, I'd applaud her for it!

Samo ...

You are right. I rarely visit the TiVoCommunity any more. Too many threads like this are one of the reasons. But also, the forum has lost the close-nit intimate feeling it had in its first few years when mostly everyone knew everyone. It became too large for my tastes. Though I still do peek in now and again.

I wonder if Joe is any relation to mojodeal! 

And, yes, I'm still waiting for the FSI!!!

Cheers!

...Dale


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dajad said:


> And, yes, I'm still waiting for the FSI!!!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> ...Dale


SageTV has an FSI 

 maybe this thread should be moved to the Fun House it seems it has found that elusive never ending quality


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

It's also an amazing coincidence that both joe123 and joe123j think that "tuner" is spelled "tunner".


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

samo said:


> You see. You just proved that you don't understand the difference. Let me try it once more. If you have 15 cars and 3 drivers in your household you can only drive 3 cars at the time. If you have 5 TVs and 2 people, you can only watch 2 Tvs at a time. .


Amazing how ignorant some people here are and with an attitude.

Who ever said that all 5 TV's could not be used at the same time? Do you know if I have 5 or more people in my house, or guests, or if I rent out rooms?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

joe123j said:


> Amazing how ignorant some people here are and with an attitude.
> 
> Who ever said that all 5 TV's could not be used at the same time? Do you know if I have 5 or more people in my house, or guests, or if I rent out rooms?


you are right, we do not know. Heck we do not even know how many forums you post on.

You bring up cost of Sage vs TiVo and and have raised the compariosn to a general level and not just your specific situation. You are using the 5 TVs to raise the cost of TiVo vs Sage It seems reasonable to debate how valid in a general sense it is to use 5 TVs.

I have two TiVos on a similar "view all around the house with complete remote control functionality" setup. What you describe for Sage can be done easily with a TiVo as well. The need is for tuners to record conflicts and enough outputs for the watching needs of a house. This varies by house of course but will generally not be 5


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Right, but even with 2 TiVos, the costs are high. For 2 TiVos with lifetime sub, that's about 500 per box ( $300 for life sub, $200 for 140hour Series 2 box). 

1,000.00 bucks for 2 TiVos. With SageTV, it a lot less with more features.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

joe123j said:


> Right, but even with 2 TiVos, the costs are high. For 2 TiVos with lifetime sub, that's about 500 per box ( $300 for life sub, $200 for 140hour Series 2 box).
> 
> 1,000.00 bucks for 2 TiVos. With SageTV, it a lot less with more features.


Hey Joe, ever heard of a smeek?

Anyway, sounds like SageTV is the right choice for you. What do you plan to do?


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## andyf (Feb 23, 2000)

Why can't we just let Joe go with Sage TV and close this thread.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

I was trying to determine if I should keep the TiVo or not.

This place is full of rage and finger pointing and deperate Tivo people. I wanted to simply evaluate TiVo's merits on it's own compared to other solutions.

Why can't folks here simply talk about TiVo's strenghs (compared to other solutions) without getting so irrational?

I mean, if TiVo cannot compete, just say so. But don't go attacking poeple for asking questions and more importantly, don't attack when someone questions your answer with a legitamate reply.

If you say 1+1=3 Don't attak when someone says that's not true.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Dajad said:


> You may claim she is mistaken and explain why. But you have not done so.


Ok, that is fair enough Dale. So I take it back. I believe that she is mistaken.

Not sure why she felt it so important to search other places in such a desperate move, but so be it.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

joe123j said:


> I was trying to determine if I should keep the TiVo or not.
> 
> This place is full of rage and finger pointing and deperate Tivo people. I wanted to simply evaluate TiVo's merits on it's own compared to other solutions.
> 
> ...


TIVO CAN NOT COMPETE with SageTV for your situation as you presented it.
In general TiVo can compete with other DVR solutions depending on customer requirements and pocket book.
And as another member of "old timers group" here, I will have to agree with Dale (Dajad) - benefit of the doubt we were giving you is running very thin. Your latest arguments are made for a sake of argument and do not add anything to the discussion. You are not looking for an answer anymore, your are trying to justify your point of view. And guess what? Nobody here really cares how you spend your money.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

joe123j said:


> I was trying to determine if I should keep the TiVo or not.
> 
> This place is full of rage and finger pointing and deperate Tivo people. I wanted to simply evaluate TiVo's merits on it's own compared to other solutions.
> 
> ...


What's wrong with ignoring the replies containing personal attacks and irrelevant discussion and only replying to the rational, fair-minded posts (like I hope mine come off as)? There's all kinds of people(114,824 of them are members here, at the time of this post), and it's possible to use the ignore function on any of them.

BTW, did you know that this other joe, just a little while ago today, posted a poll asking why Sage users switched from TiVo to Sage? With the following options:

SagetTV beter than TiVo overall.
Overall Costs are cheaper with SageTV
More Functions available with SageTV
TiVo is too Limiting
Don't Like TiVo Community Web Site 
I mean, wow, the odds that he is polling for all the same problems you have with TiVo (and apparently TiVoCommunity as well) must be truly astronomical. I'm not a betting man, but that's one dark horse.


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## joe123j (Jan 25, 2006)

Amazing, you guys cannot stay focused on TiVo merits alone.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

joe123j said:


> Amazing, you guys cannot stay focused on TiVo merits alone.


Not with the entertainment you're providing. Many have responded with fair minded and balanced replies, acknowledged the shortcomings, features, and differences of each product, and your responses in no way show an interest in _discussion_. You've been out to prove your point since post one.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

joe123j said:


> Amazing, you guys cannot stay focused on TiVo merits alone.


I focus on the merits of TiVo when I'm at my TV. I focus on the amusement of watching a troll self-immolate when I'm reading this thread. I can't watch the TiVo 100% of the day. One of the beauties of TiVo is that I don't have to think about it all the time because it just works without my attention. I think you'll find that if you talk to the other joe123, the same is not quite true of SageTV.


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## cynthetiq (Mar 13, 2004)

wow... still feeding the trolls


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

joe123j said:


> Amazing, you guys cannot stay focused on TiVo merits alone.


What do you expect from a bunch of off-topic cultists? Just try to get these people to talk about TiVo and they start attacking you.

Anyway, I'm having trouble finding a "throwaway" PC that has five PCI slots. But I did find this box which has three, so I was thinking I could get two of them, and put three tunners in one and two in the other. Speaking of tunners, I found this one. Will it work with Sage?

So the boxes are $280 each, and the tunners are $30 each (assuming you give them the stamp of approval), and the IR blasters are $50 each. (I can run multiple IRs from the same PC, right? You never answered that.) So that's $960. What else do I need? The tunner says it comes with an audio cable -- I'm assuming it's got an adapter, or I'm going to have to make a run to Radio Shack and hope they've got five RCA to mini stereo adapters. Oh, the computers only have 40GB drives -- five TiVos would have 200GB, so I'll need another 120GB. I can't tell if there is room in the box for a second drive, so I may have to replace one of the 40s with a 160 -- I think that would be cheaper, and a lot less hassle than getting two 100s. That's another hundred bucks or so. I guess I may have to reload the OS. Speaking of which, the boxes run Windows XP Pro. Is that okay? Will I need one copy of Sage or two? Oh, wait, I need the Media MVP gizmos. That's another $500. So what are we at? Let's call it $1560. Those use wired ethernet don't they? Not wireless? So I'll need a router with seven ports. Ah, screw it, I'll get a four-porter and daisy chain it off my wirelss hub, that will give me enough ports and it's only like twenty bucks. Do I need anything else?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Do I need anything else?


Patience and a membership in the SageTV forum, would be my guess.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

joe123j said:


> Amazing, you guys cannot stay focused on TiVo merits alone.


we should start calling you DrStrAnGE


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Patience and a membership in the SageTV forum, would be my guess.


Do you think it will be a problem that I don't know squat about Windows? I'm a Unix and Mac guy. The other day I had to set up a windows machine at work. I started out setting it up DHCP, but then wanted a fixed IP. It took me twenty minutes to find the place where you can change that setting, buried three or four pop-ups deep, as it is. I kept trying to rerun the wizard, but it kept telling me that I was already connected (I wasn't). Windows Help was useless. I found all kinds of settings I didn't understand -- what is an IRQ and why would I want to change it?

Anyway, my Sage setup should just be plug and play, right? Pop in the tunners, new disk, IR blasters, reboot, load the Sage software, and I'm watching TV. Easy as pie, right?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

joe123j said:


> Ok, that is fair enough Dale. So I take it back. I believe that she is mistaken.
> 
> Not sure why she felt it so important to search other places in such a desperate move, but so be it.


what do you mean "I believe that she is mistaken" ? eitehr there is a highly improbable, errie coincidence going on or you are the joe123 from the sage forum. Surely you know for sure yourself.

And in the context of postings on a forum it is important, so many people play these mind games on internet forums and it seriously detracts from actual discussion of a topic.

Quite frankly I think YOU are lying and have been from the subject line of your thread. I never took you seriously.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Quite frankly I think YOU are lying and have been from the subject line of your thread. I never took you seriously.


Man, you guys are always harshing on poor, put-upon joe. You're so busy trying to force him to joing your cult that you don't see what a great, stand-up guy he is. After all, he's helping me with my Sage setup, right Joe? Joe?


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

Dajad said:


> Sorry buddy ... calling a genuinely nice person and an EXTREMELY valued member of this community a liar is NOT appropriate, not to mention lacking in class!


Thank you very much, Dale.

Joe, I was not desperate when I checked you out - I was doing my moderating duties. I thought you were a spammer after reading your first post, but people were responding like you were for real. So, I double-checked to see if you worked for SageTV. No match to SageTV.

I got interested in what, exactly, *is* Sage TV. I'm not technical, and I only own two televisions and my family and I actually like to watch together, so I'd never heard of it. I googled it. On the top of my google search, there was the Sage TV website, and I saw the forum. I like forums, and I think you get more interesting and useful information from them. So, I clicked there, and lo and behold, who was the first poster I saw?

You.

Oh, wait, not you, I was mistaken. Your doppleganger. (Look it up.)

The entire process took me less than five minutes.

The only name-calling in this thread was directed towards me, but it's minor enough so that I don't feel that the thread should be closed because of that. However, if it was another member Joe called a liar when he clearly is the one doing the lying - then yes, I would close it.

Other than that, no forum rules have been broken so until they are, you all can play with the troll as much as you like.

I suggest you don't, of course. My part in this thread is over until any forum rules are broken.

And, again Dale, thank you for the very kind words. I appreciate them.


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## GoldenTiger (Apr 11, 2002)

SageTV is an excellent product (in fact, I have switched my home over to it from a large TiVo setup and am going to be helping my family do so in their homes). However, this thread is just pathetic in how badly joe is making a fool out of himself. He is not only doing that, but he is making an excellent product look terrible in the process. Both TiVo and SageTV are great, but I think that in the future, TiVo's cooperation with the networks' "demands" and DRM schemes will be its downfall, whereas with a PC-based solution, YOU are the one in control, not the companies. Either way, right now, they are both aimed at slightly different audiences. TiVo is primarily for those who want a home-electronic device with nothing to do and a very basic backup scheme, whereas SageTV is for those who want a more robust, fleshed-out, open (not locked down with encryption, or DRM schemes, or any limitations that take control FROM you) system and are a bit more technically knowledgable to be able to set it all up. Most fall into the former.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

GoldenTiger said:


> Both TiVo and SageTV are great, but I think that in the future, TiVo's cooperation with the networks' "demands" and DRM schemes will be its downfall, whereas with a PC-based solution, YOU are the one in control, not the companies.


Maybe, but you'll be in control of an ever-shrinking spectrum of content. If you want digital cable content, your system will comply with CableLabs requirements. Period. If you want to see how that is going to play out, have a look at this article. It isn't even clear to me if Sage has the resources to get their system certified on all of the likely platforms. And without certification, no CableCARD. And without CableCARD, you're going to be increasingly limited in what you can watch.

TiVo's cooperation with the industry is unlikely to be their downfall, it is what is keeping them in the game. Most people don't really care about DRM issues because they won't be affected by them. For those that do, well, they're not likely TiVo customers anyway. Every time TiVo's DRM issues come up, the screams from the internet come from far and wide, but it is always the MythTV (et al.) crowd that is screaming the loudest. Why do they care about TiVo's DRM? They don't. What they are really screaming about is their own looming marginalization.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> TiVo is primarily for those who want a home-electronic device with nothing to do and a very basic backup scheme, whereas SageTV is for those who want a more robust, fleshed-out, open (not locked down with encryption, or DRM schemes, or any limitations that take control FROM you) system and are a bit more technically knowledgable to be able to set it all up. Most fall into the former.


Sounds like a good summary of the two technologies. But I cant quite reconcile "most fall into the former" with "TiVo's cooperation with the networks' "demands" and DRM schemes will be its downfall". If most people, according to your statement, don't care much about DRM, and want a simple system, how can TiVo's downfall be that they have a DRM-scheme that pleases the networks, allows basic backup, and is simple to operate?

Like ChuckyBox, I would say that's TiVo's STRENGTH, not its weakness.


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

GoldenTiger said:


> SageTV is an excellent product (in fact, I have switched my home over to it from a large TiVo setup and am going to be helping my family do so in their homes). However, this thread is just pathetic in how badly joe is making a fool out of himself. He is not only doing that, but he is making an excellent product look terrible in the process.


Proof enough that Joe isn't a paid shill, just an enthusiast who got caught shilling (badly) for free. A paid shill would have been more subtle and wouldn't have been caught so easily.


> Both TiVo and SageTV are great, but I think that in the future, TiVo's cooperation with the networks' "demands" and DRM schemes will be its downfall,


As others have pointed out, that is not a downfall, that's a plus. It's not as though the DRM is so onerous that it gets in the way of DVR functionality, and it is not as though there aren't workarounds or hacks that can be used to bypass it if you are so inclined. TiVo is doing what it has to to comply with industry standards, and that means TiVo will still be around years from now.


> whereas with a PC-based solution, YOU are the one in control, not the companies. Either way, right now, they are both aimed at slightly different audiences. TiVo is primarily for those who want a home-electronic device with nothing to do and a very basic backup scheme, whereas SageTV is for those who want a more robust, fleshed-out, open (not locked down with encryption, or DRM schemes, or any limitations that take control FROM you) system and are a bit more technically knowledgable to be able to set it all up. Most fall into the former.


I'm glad PC based solutions like Sage are around for those who want that sort of thing, but realistically this is a tiny, tiny market. Their enthusiasts can make a lot of noise on internet forums, but they are never going to be enough of them, nor are they going to spend enough money, to keep a company like TiVo alive. It is pure hobby and geek territory. Most of us find TiVo to be more than we need, and this will only continue to be even more the case as TiVo keeps adding more and more features and functionality.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

GoldenTiger said:


> SageTV is an excellent product (in fact, I have switched my home over to it from a large TiVo setup and am going to be helping my family do so in their homes).


 It certainly does have its plusses and does what it set out to do very well.


> but I think that in the future, TiVo's cooperation with the networks' "demands" and DRM schemes will be its downfall, whereas with a PC-based solution, YOU are the one in control, not the companies. .


others have pointed out CableLabs certification and how that is becoming the standard to directly access digital streams from cable companies.

I will also point out that if SageTV ever wanted to incorporate DVD playback into the product then SageTV as a commercial app will have to employ the Macrovision license as well. DRM will come to all such commercial recording systems unless Congress decides to pass laws to just shut DRM down, which of course is highly unlikely.

the only ones that can escape DRM are open source things like MythTV and that is only if they can stay loosely coupled with no central point for the content owners to attack.


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