# TiVoPony - Will TiVo Amazon Unbox be Available in Canada



## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

I expect the answer to be a flat out no because it always is.

I can't, yet, buy movies/TV shows through my Xbox 360 in Canada (though Microsoft says this is coming soon), Apple doesn't make movie/TV show downloads avalable to Canadians through iTunes, I can't download network TV shows from their websites in Canada. I would be ENORMOUSLY surprised if Amazon/TiVo has the rights to rent videos to residents of the backwater known as Canada!

I would be so delighted to be wrong!!!!

...Dale


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HAve you tried out unbox to a PC in your house? if that works then I would think the TiVo feature would just do the same.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Isn't there some weird Candian law that requires all movies sold in Canada to have French subtitles? If so then I'd guess no, since TiVo doesn't actually have a built in mechanisim for displaying subtitles. (closed captioning is not the same thing)

Dan


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Seems to me if Unbox is meant for computers, wouldn't the captions be hidden unless you want to call them up? Like on a DVD? So then they just wouldn't appear if sent thru a TiVo?


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## ZBB (Dec 23, 2004)

I'm interested to find out also -- even though I'm in the US.

We're in the US, but our main TiVo is hooked up to the Canadian StarChoice sat service (my wife is Canadian...). It will be interesting to see if Amazon Unbox works on that TiVo. 

I'm suspecting it won't work because some of the other new TiVo features, like Product Watch are not avail on that TiVo (since its set to a Canadian postal code).


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Isn't there some weird Candian law that requires all movies sold in Canada to have French subtitles? If so then I'd guess no, since TiVo doesn't actually have a built in mechanisim for displaying subtitles. (closed captioning is not the same thing)


I suppose alternate language subtitles might be a moot point if they were to offer the film in both French and English. Then again, maybe now. You know how inflexible laws can be.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

I'm sorry, but Amazon does not have rights to sell this content in Canada or anywhere except the U.S. Please contact your favorite movie studies to make this request.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Dan203 said:


> Isn't there some weird Candian law that requires all movies sold in Canada to have French subtitles? If so then I'd guess no, since TiVo doesn't actually have a built in mechanisim for displaying subtitles. (closed captioning is not the same thing)
> 
> Dan


Well, lets nip that one in the budd. The answer is emphatically NO!!!! There is a requirement that all products sold in Quebec have French and English packaging. That's a whole other kettle of fish.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

TiVoStephen said:


> I'm sorry, but Amazon does not have rights to sell this content in Canada or anywhere except the U.S. Please contact your favorite movie studies to make this request.


Thanks TiVoStephen. Just as I thought. And, of course, contacting my "favorite" movie studio will have ZERO affect here!

I'm still waiting for ZAP2IT to provide OTA HD listings/guide data in Canada. I've asked every helpdesk at TiVo and every e-mail address I have for Tribune and Zap2it since last September if/when OTA HD listings will be available for us S3 users in Canada and haven't received so much as a response.

And that's exactly what I'd get if I contacted studios!

But, thanks for answering the question. I prefer an honest rejection than being ignored! 

...Dale


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Or contact your MP. Have the law changed that for online content, the US and Canada are the same market, just like DVDs practically are.


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

classicsat said:


> Or contact your MP. Have the law changed that for online content, the US and Canada are the same market, just like DVDs practically are.


There is no law.

This is just companies that don't want to be bothered expanding their markets and making more revenue.

Because like, you know, it would take some effort to accept six digit postal codes and other such complications.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Fraser+Dief said:


> There is no law.
> 
> This is just companies that don't want to be bothered expanding their markets and making more revenue.
> 
> Because like, you know, it would take some effort to accept six digit postal codes and other such complications.


Well, there's also taxes and tariffs and whatnot. But I agree, it can't be that daunting.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

It really has nothing to do with six digit postal codes. We're not talking about a new service, we're talking about what Amazon Unbox can do, and that's been launched since last year.

Amazon.com itself can take orders from Canada just fine, and has no problems with six digit postal codes or even the taxes and tariffs. You can order a book and it will be sent to you properly and have the proper taxes and tariffs. But buying a digital license is very different from buying a book.

The issue is purely about all the extremely complicated contracts and licenses that are involved when getting permission to sell TV shows and movies in different parts of the world. Imagine all the royalties contract signed for each actor and the production house and the producer and the writer and the director and so on.

Amazon was only able to secure rights for U.S. distribution. If they could sell to Canadians or folks elsewhere, they would do so in a heartbeat. But, those rights are not available at this time.

I'm sorry that that's the case, but there's absolutely nothing we at TiVo can do about it except apologize and ask Amazon to continue to pursue those rights (which they're already doing, they want to offer Unbox worldwide).


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Hey Stephen:

I understand, as I said, I'm experiencing the exact same thing with every other video-on demand system offered by American companies.

And Frasier, there sure is a law involved. I'm a technology lawyer. The Canadian Broadcasting policy and Broadcast Act is to blame. Canada has considered protecting "Canadian Content" a primary policy objective. The upshot is that the North American market for broadcast TV, movies, books etc. is bifurcated. Canada retains protectionism for these forms of content even under NAFTA. Canadian broadcasters must provide a specific percentage of Canadian content on every network. Foreign companies face many restrictions on operating networks here. So, for instance, there is NO HBO in Canada because HBO was never able to obtain a license. So, for HBO and every other U.S. network, they have licensed the rights to their content to Canadian entities for everything. All CBS, ABC, NBC etc. content is licensed to one Canadian network or another. 

The movie industry is similar. Canadian distributors typically have movie distribution rights and those distributors are different from those with the rights in the U.S. Yada yada! The cross-border spaghetti of IP entanglements and complications never ends.

So the rights to provide virtually ANY content in Canada are held by different entities than those with the same rights in the U.S. So, for every bit of content that Amazon makes available in the U.S., they have to secure the same rights from a different Canadian partner.

So, as I said, it all goes back to the Broadcast Act and every other act that protects Canadian content. So, Amazon has not obtained the rights to distribute in Canada, just like Apple, Microsoft, CinemaNow, MovieLink and every other online distribution service has not done so. A contact I have in Microsoft informs me that Microsoft is working to secure rights to movie distribution rights through the Xbox 360 now. Clearly neither Amazon nor TiVo has done th is yet. 

As with everything in the broadcast space, we Canadians have to wait 3 to 5 years before it becomes available here. Arghh!!!!

Thankfully, this should NOT apply to the wild and wooly world of video podcasts. Typically the owner of the podcast has the rights to distribute wherever the hell they want. So, I'm hoping TiVo is not limiting Canadian access to podcasts through the S3. If that happens, I'll be majorly peeved!

Thanks again Steve.

...Dale


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

It's amazing how long it's taken the studios simply to get in the habit of ensuring all necessary rights are contracted up front so they can put out DVDs of TV series in a timely manner. You'd think they'd simply push to have these issues dealt with up front as often as they can. Digital distribution should be one of the easiest rights to secure because it involves a fee per purchase that can simply be divvied up and spread out following some predetermined royalty structure.

Not that Hollywood ever has done things in a straightforward manner. 

How much can it really matter if they earn money per-download, and a download to Caracas is no different than a download to Connecticut? The difficult things are selling rights to broadcast in different countries... there's many more factors considered in pricing such things.

It's a shame Hollywood just can't seem to do anything right without screwing it up nine ways to Sunday first.


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

Dajad said:


> And Frasier, there sure is a law involved.


I meant that there is no french subtitle law, thought that was coming up again. Of course there are various other laws and licences required.



TiVoStephen said:


> Amazon was only able to secure rights for U.S. distribution. If they could sell to Canadians or folks elsewhere, they would do so in a heartbeat. But, those rights are not available at this time.


Is it "only able to" or "only tried to" secure US rights?

Do we know for a fact that they *tried* to pursue Canadian rights and failed? Or did they just not try at all, assuming it's too complicated, or expensive?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Is it "only able to" or "only tried to" secure US rights?
> 
> Do we know for a fact that they *tried* to pursue Canadian rights and failed? Or did they just not try at all, assuming it's too complicated, or expensive?


It would make no sense to not pursue Canadian rights. Heck, even if they could break even they would do it just so they can get more users. Obviously, they started out in the US first, but its no secret they want to get rights in as many countries as possible.


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## GeeCee (Nov 7, 2004)

Tivo hardly offers service in Canada at this point anyway, no reason for them to support it really. Well, on tivo's end anyway. I'm sure Amazon would love to make more money.


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## reidjr (Nov 10, 2006)

GeeCee said:


> Tivo hardly offers service in Canada at this point anyway, no reason for them to support it really. Well, on tivo's end anyway. I'm sure Amazon would love to make more money.


Tivo does fully support there service in canada.It seems they plan on selling tivos in canada starting this summer at bestbuy/futureshop.They will aslo have a canadian tivo office.There was a study done back in the fall on how many canadins have tivo as of nov 30,000 have tivo and more and more are going away from the cable pvr to tivo.The reason for this is the cable pvr lack features.Some are starting to feel that in the next few years tivo will be just as big in canada as it is in the states.


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

reidjr said:


> It seems they plan on selling tivos in canada starting this summer at bestbuy/futureshop.


Of course that was also said over a year ago.  When I bought mine in 2005, they were going to be appearing any time now in FS/BB.

I'll believe it when I see it.


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## reidjr (Nov 10, 2006)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Of course that was also said over a year ago.  When I bought mine in 2005, they were going to be appearing any time now in FS/BB.
> 
> I'll believe it when I see it.


While this is just a rumor at this time.There is some talk rogers and tivo are talking about a rogers tivo.If this does happan it would be great.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

reidjr said:


> While this is just a rumor at this time.There is some talk rogers and tivo are talking about a rogers tivo.If this does happan it would be great.


This would work great for Rogers Motorola customers in NB. They could easily rip-off the Comcast-TIVO box software / headend tools etc.

Not quite sure how it would work for their SciATL customers in Ontario.. since my understanding is that the TIVO/Comcast stuff is for Motorola boxes only.

J


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

lajohn27 said:


> Not quite sure how it would work for their SciATL customers in Ontario.. since my understanding is that the TIVO/Comcast stuff is for Motorola boxes only.


Motorola boxes first; Scientific Atlanta boxes to follow.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dajad- i realize you are an officee of the court and all so you cant do anything illegal,  but I'm curious if you live close enough to the border and hypothetically use a zipcode in say Buffalo, could you get by? (On the PC side- I think you'de get hosed for TIvo becasue they wouldn't give you the right guide.) Do they just generally check your postal codes, or is it more complex that service company's filter you folks by like cedit card bank or IP address? 

Are you folks really in content jail- or do they just require you to jump through hoops that are grey....


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dswallow said:


> Motorola boxes first; Scientific Atlanta boxes to follow.


and it's OCAP-lite or something like that so in theory anything OCAP (like the new panasonic dvr's that comcast ordered) will be able to get it at some point in the future...

(whenever that may be...)


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Michael:

Yes, many people do break the law in Canada and avail themselves of the grey market. It's unfortunate that it comes to this but for honest Canadians, there's only one way to obtain products and services offered years ahead in the U.S. - the illegal grey market. 

But, its usually the companies supporting users in the grey marekt that are prosecuted and not the consumers so much. Hence, it is in the company's best interest to defeat the grey market as most often do well. It is not as easy as you think to obtain and use grey market services. 

In any event, I'm an honest person looking for an honest way to purchase my electronics and services. It's been terrific to finally have a way of legally using TiVo in Canada. 

It's just so frustrating that 4 months after launch TiVo and Tribune have not found a way to include OTA ATSC guide data for Canadians - especially when Tribune already has all the information in their database!!!! In my case, they need only extend the data they make available for OTA ASTC users in Buffalo New York to me here in Toronto - its the EXACT same information since Buffalo and Toronto share the same OTA spectrum (us Toronto residents can watch every OTA Buffalo analogue and digital channel and vice versa). Yet, despite dozens of requests, pokes and prods by me and others, so far neither TiVo nor Tribune have responded (not even to my requests here on this forum) as to when I can expect OTA ASTC guide data for my S3 in Toronto.

...Dale


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dajad said:


> Michael:
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


What a pain.

I suppose you cant just use a buffalo zip becasue you would loose your cable provider from guided setup?


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Yes, exactly!


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## jaitken (Jan 25, 2003)

I have a US address and credit card and a lifetime sub.
I used to live in the US. Now I live in Canada.
I was able to buy the downlaods but I guess tivo or amazon's servers see my shaw.ca domain and block the download.

I ordered a few things already but it was on the free trial thank goodness.

Do I need a US proxy server for my tivo?

It is unhacked but I guess I can tweak my router.
Can anyone post instructions to use a proxy server with a router?
I have a linksys.

Thanks
J


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## ZBB (Dec 23, 2004)

We tried Unbox on TiVo a couple weeks ago... 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, we are in the US, but have our main TiVo set up on the Canadian StarChoice sat service. We have a second TiVo in our bedroom hooked up only to cable TV.

Amazon is able to "see" both TiVos, and we were able to receive the movie on the main box (which thinks its in Canada). I guess since I'm able to buy it from Amazon, that it gets sent with no problems...


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## jaitken (Jan 25, 2003)

ZBB said:


> We tried Unbox on TiVo a couple weeks ago...
> 
> As I mentioned earlier in this thread, we are in the US, but have our main TiVo set up on the Canadian StarChoice sat service. We have a second TiVo in our bedroom hooked up only to cable TV.
> 
> Amazon is able to "see" both TiVos, and we were able to receive the movie on the main box (which thinks its in Canada). I guess since I'm able to buy it from Amazon, that it gets sent with no problems...


Hey ZBB It is all about the domain that you are in, not your tivo settings. 
I can't download to my laptop either.
I use shaw and so I have a shaw.ca domain and when I try to download to my laptop I get an error that says non US location. 
When I travel south I bet I'll be agble to download. I am sure that it is all about international license fees. 
Tivo is not really supported up here but I'm glad that I can at least get my cable data without having to go black market. I have 4 tivo's and love it.


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## visionary (May 31, 2006)

I see the solution to all your issues. Yes, rent a PO box or use a friends address in the USA. Maybe get a credit card here so you can pay in real dollars. Then--- subscribe to a SATELLITE service that has HBO and all that stuff you miss in Canada! No problem with wrong guide info in the Tivo either, it will be just like you are here. Ought to work for all the nearby third world places, Mexico, Canada, Bahamas, Cuba, etc. that are near our borders.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Dajad:

What do you think about this article on further regulating internet content in Canada...

http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/article/198334


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## jaitken (Jan 25, 2003)

visionary said:


> I see the solution to all your issues. Yes, rent a PO box or use a friends address in the USA. Maybe get a credit card here so you can pay in real dollars. Then--- subscribe to a SATELLITE service that has HBO and all that stuff you miss in Canada! No problem with wrong guide info in the Tivo either, it will be just like you are here. Ought to work for all the nearby third world places, Mexico, Canada, Bahamas, Cuba, etc. that are near our borders.


Hmm. 
No comments on your lack of worldliness. Parts of the US are far more 3rd world than Canada. Have you ever visited the great white north? Most of it is pretty green and high tech too. My igloo has wifi  

Satellite is a good idea but I'm not going to bother with the hassle of the grey market. It does not solve the amazon issue though.
Tivo works fine up here with Canadian cable and satellite companies and we get all of the good HBO shows, even though Sopranos has jumped the shark.

I have a US address and a US credit card and a US passport too. Just happen to live in Canada right now.

The issue is with the tivo and the .ca domain name address that it gets its internet connection from. Plain and simple. It is actually Amazon doing the blocking and not tivo. Need to spoof amazon's servers to think that I'm requesting the data from comcast or roadrunner etc.

So read the prior posts before posting dumb ideas and come up with an idea that works instead of showing off what an ugly american you are.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

jaitken said:


> Hmm.
> No comments on your lack of worldliness. Parts of the US are far more 3rd world than Canada. Have you ever visited the great white north? Most of it is pretty green and high tech too. My igloo has wifi
> 
> Satellite is a good idea but I'm not going to bother with the hassle of the grey market. It does not solve the amazon issue though.
> ...


The only way to really spoof the IP address such that Amazon would think you've got a US IP address would be to create a VPN to someone in the US and route your IP traffic through the VPN.

It's not going to be a really simple solution; it'll require some heavy configuration of something flexible such as a Linux system running Smoothwall as your router and something similar at a friends place in the US.


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## unixb0y (Oct 19, 2005)

Has anything changed now with unbox in Canada? I understand that apple tv now has more content for Canadians.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Dajad said:


> I expect the answer to be a flat out no because it always is.
> 
> I can't, yet, buy movies/TV shows through my Xbox 360 in Canada (though Microsoft says this is coming soon), Apple doesn't make movie/TV show downloads avalable to Canadians through iTunes, I can't download network TV shows from their websites in Canada. I would be ENORMOUSLY surprised if Amazon/TiVo has the rights to rent videos to residents of the backwater known as Canada!
> 
> ...


I have no insight as to whether Amazon content will be available in other countries. It is not a TiVo issue at all, as it has to do with Amazon's distribution rights.

It would be a question to direct to AmazonPony. 

Cheers,
Pony


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## JaySpeers (Mar 15, 2008)

Still no change. Here is the answer from yesterday:



> At this time, Amazon Unbox is available only to customers connecting to the internet from a location in the United States (referring to the
> 48 contiguous states, Alaska, Hawaii, and the District of Columbia).
> 
> We apologize for the inconvenience this may cause you. We value our international customers and hope to make content available in more locations in the future.


What WOULD be nice is if the TiVo purchased in Canada didn't actually advertise services like unbox that aren't available in Canada.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

It would be interesting to see if one could get a router that supports VPN and connect the TiVo(s) in a household to that router and configured a VPN tunnel to someone in the US who could be the VPN endpoint for the connection. That should make the internet traffic, at least, appear to be from a US address.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I smell a business oppurtunity....


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## unixb0y (Oct 19, 2005)

I hear that all iTunes needs a US based credit card. I read here that unbox checks more that that but maybe its worth a try.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I smell a business oppurtunity....


To what, aid in copyright violation?

It won't last too long if it did, or go semi-underground like torrents and pay TV piracy.

On the other hand, if you mean you can make an opportunity of becoming a legal online premium content distributor licensed for the Canadian market actually work, then by all means go ahead.


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## JaySpeers (Mar 15, 2008)

classicsat said:


> To what, aid in copyright violation?
> 
> It won't last too long if it did, or go semi-underground like torrents and pay TV piracy.
> 
> On the other hand, if you mean you can make an opportunity of becoming a legal online premium content distributor licensed for the Canadian market actually work, then by all means go ahead.


If I'm paying for it in order to download it, how am I violating copyright? You would think the people benefiting from the price would appreciate more people LEGALLY watching their stuff instead of grabbing a torrent.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

classicsat said:


> To what, aid in copyright violation?
> 
> It won't last too long if it did, or go semi-underground like torrents and pay TV piracy.
> 
> On the other hand, if you mean you can make an opportunity of becoming a legal online premium content distributor licensed for the Canadian market actually work, then by all means go ahead.


oh- I dont plan on doing anything.

way over my head and i'd prefer not to get involved in anythign quasi legal.

But my point was there are(were?) gray market services for both getting US sat tv in canada and getting canadian sat tv in the us. I wonder when one of those sort of company's opens a vpn instead of just a mail box based in the other country. So that people can get unbox and/or presumably directv's download movies up north.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The copyright violation is that Unbox is licensed only for the USA, and any means to import that service into Canada is violating the rights of the Canadian rightsholders, much like grey market satellite TV subscriptions do. Despite the content being paid for, the Canadian rights holder receives no benefit they have the right to, from the sale of that product.

A VPN service would be detected and locked out from the service. It would be a cat and mouse game between the provider and the VPN services, and would inconvenience users, at least. At most such services would be sued out of existence, as some grey market satellite brokers have.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

There's already such services, BTW... not specific to Unbox, but general anonymous VPN proxies.

http://www.aliveproxy.com/web-ssl-vpn/


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

classicsat said:


> ...
> 
> A VPN service would be detected and locked out from the service. It would be a cat and mouse game between the provider and the VPN services, and would inconvenience users, at least. At most such services would be sued out of existence, as some grey market satellite brokers have.


way over my head- by detect do you mean they could tell you are on a vpn? Or you mean they would just watch the advertising and what not and get it that way like they catch the grey markets?

I thought vpn connections would be indistinguishable from a normal connection physically made at the vpn endpoint?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> way over my head- by detect do you mean they could tell you are on a vpn? Or you mean they would just watch the advertising and what not and get it that way like they catch the grey markets?
> 
> I thought vpn connections would be indistinguishable from a normal connection physically made at the vpn endpoint?


There'd be two ways...

(1) tie it to BOTH the apparent geographical location of the IP address being used and the registered address of the TiVo.

(2) maintain a list of IP blocks operating as general proxies and block content going to them.

Each with drawbacks...

(1) would prevent a technically legitimate use... someone with a Canadian registered unit physically coming to the US with their receiver and downloading content.

(2) could become a pain to administer since it would require manual updating and following the IP blocks actually used by such proxy services.


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## canucktv (Jul 3, 2007)

Ok, so as of June 4th iTunes Canada has 1200 movies (some for rent, others purchase only).

They will come out at the same time as video stores.

So ... Amazon/Tivo ... the copyright holders are willing to provide the content for Apple, let's see what can you do?


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## jayhawk069 (Jan 6, 2008)

canucktv said:


> Ok, so as of June 4th iTunes Canada has 1200 movies (some for rent, others purchase only).


It still sucks that such movies can only be watched on a computer, iPod (who would want to?) or via Apple TV (what I don't need now is yet another gizmo in the home entertainment chain). Or maybe I just like to complain.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

(I could imagine watching a movie on an iPhone/iPod Touch screen.)

But I've also watched videos on a TV from an iPod -- someone has brought the videos of the TED conference to a friend's house on an ipod, and watching them on a TV from that was convenient.


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## kharder (Jan 12, 2007)

What about a deal with the Bell Video Store?


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