# TiVo Premiere streaming



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

I'm just curious but on a scale from one to ten. One being not important at all to ten being the most important feature you could ask for, how useful would streaming be from one TiVo Premiere box to another?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

0 for me


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

I have only one TV, so not important to me either.


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## bernaise (Feb 27, 2004)

I would give this a 9 since it would relieve the issue with the copy protection. The boxes should be capable of it, so this should be a high priority.


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## BinaryWeapon (Mar 3, 2011)

Watching something across units would be fantastic.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

bernaise said:


> I would give this a 9 since it would relieve the issue with the copy protection. The boxes should be capable of it, so this should be a high priority.


My assumption is that something like that would only be supported S4 to S4 (S5 to S5) - this whole forum would go balistic, just not worth it!

Now, I wouldn't mind seeing an un-subbed appliance that we could stream to.

I would also like to see TiVo support an air video type app for the iPad.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

ufo4sale said:


> I'm just curious but on a scale from one to ten. One being not important at all to ten being the most important feature you could ask for, how useful would streaming be from one TiVo Premiere box to another?


10

Just this week, I wanted to transition from watching the Oscars in the living room to the bedroom. Had to explain to the GF how this was not technologically possible with the Tivo until all 3 hours of it had finished recording. The GF was not pleased. Feels like 1990's tech.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Currently 0 for me. I have multiple TiVos and multiple TVs, but with FiOS I am copy freely so I can transfer anything I want. 

If streaming ever becomes necessary for me, I would be looking at other options to replace my current setup and would most likely go with Media Center. I already have extenders in the form of 360s, and I would be able to have as many tuners as I can afford.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

10.
I use MRV a LOT and no CCI issues. However managing copies of shows (trying to remember what was watched and then having to go to unit to delete them) on more than 1 unit gets old in a hurry. Streaming would get rid of that issue and of course get around the CCI copy protection issue that affects many. That coupled with remote delete capability would be really, really nice and would also present the motivation for people with multiple units holding back on Premiere upgrades to do so.

Then there's cooperative scheduling too which would be the ultimate, but that would be a lot tougher to implement for TiVo. ReplayTV had a partial implementation of cooperative scheduling which would be a good start for TiVo to imitate.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

smbaker said:


> 10
> 
> Just this week, I wanted to transition from watching the Oscars in the living room to the bedroom. Had to explain to the GF how this was not technologically possible with the Tivo until all 3 hours of it had finished recording. The GF was not pleased. Feels like 1990's tech.


10, for exactly this reason. Not impacted by copy protection here but having to wait until some long sports event (or whatever) is done recording before watching it somewhere else in the house is lame.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

*10*


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

zero since I can already transfer any recording I make on FiOS to any of my other TiVos or PC.

although I do see this as an important feature since most cable systems have restrictions on transfers.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Zero for me I am OTA only and only have 1 TV at the moment.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

10, I live in a Time Warner area and would switch to them from satellite in a heartbeat if this were available.


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## DaveWhittle (Jul 25, 2002)

Maybe a 7 for me, but ONLY if the 2nd box doesn't need hookup to cable/cablecard.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Zero for me as well.  I am ota only and slingbox does all the streaming needed.


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## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

FWIW, I wouldn't count on FIOS being unprotected forever - just ask the folks that had their FIOS gobbled up by Frontier. Also, let's not even start talking about a pure IPTV implementation which would screw everone.

I also have FIOS, but would welcome a streaming solution, so

7


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

rocko said:


> ...Also, let's not even start talking about a pure IPTV implementation which would screw everone...


Now wait - why is that again? 

Premiere chip (Broadcom BCM7413) features:


> The BCM7413 is a multi-format IPTV SoC that is optimized to support SD and ED output resolutions, HDMIv.1.3/HDCP1.2 (up to 480p/576p) and video DAC support for S-video and composite video.


I honestly know nothing about IPTV, but it seems the Premiere hardware would support it. At least the processor would. Is it a tuner/decoder thing?


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

ufo4sale said:


> I'm just curious but on a scale from one to ten. One being not important at all to ten being the most important feature you could ask for, how useful would streaming be from one TiVo Premiere box to another?


If by "another box" you mean a non-TiVo box, I think it is very important (and that could include your Android phone, ipad, laptop, Roku, game console, etc). Most people are simply not going to buy another TiVo and pay for expensive service just so they can watch some program they already recorded in a different room.

I live alone, and have only one big TV & surround system in the living room and a small TV in a spare room. So streaming from the TiVo to another device is not terribly important to me. But I do know it would be nice, and it is something important to other people. But it is far down the list of many important things that TiVo needs to work on. I think their priorities should be (in order):

* Address and fix any and all stability issues
* Address performance and usability issues with proper reprogramming/design of the HDUI
* Add a method to backup (and restore) all settings to removable media and/or the "cloud"
* Update sub-components like Netflix
* Thread the sucker and use the other core
* Convert more (many) SD menus to HD
* Add new features, such as streaming to and from DLNA

As you can see, I place it on the bottom of the priority list. Still very important, just not at this exact moment.


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## MrSkippy53 (Jan 27, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> zero since I can already transfer any recording I make on FiOS to any of my other TiVos or PC.


Even premium channels like HBO and Stars?


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> zero since I can already transfer any recording I make on FiOS to any of my other TiVos


And what if you don't have another TiVo and don't want to spend $700 on one and would rather stream your TiVo shows to your Android, iPad, Wii, Xbox, Linux box, Rokku, Apple TV, GoogleTV, or etc?

$95 http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digit...Z60I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299284758&sr=8-1

$120 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882105511&Tpk=dlna

Etc...


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## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> Now wait - why is that again?
> 
> Premiere chip (Broadcom BCM7413) features:
> 
> I honestly know nothing about IPTV, but it seems the Premiere hardware would support it. At least the processor would. Is it a tuner/decoder thing?


I would imagine if that was true the Premiere would support ATT U-verse, which it does not. Pure IPTV would eliminate CableCARDS - which in turn throws out the tuners. I'm pretty sure this turns the TiVo into a doorstop if "cable" was your primary source.


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## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

MrSkippy53 said:


> Even premium channels like HBO and Stars?


For now, most FIOS customers can transfer just about anything - including premium movie channels. There's nothing definite about that changing but I see the writing on the wall.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

rocko said:


> I would imagine if that was true the Premiere would support ATT U-verse, which it does not. Pure IPTV would eliminate CableCARDS - which in turn throws out the tuners. I'm pretty sure this turns the TiVo into a doorstop if "cable" was your primary source.


Technically, watching YouTube or NetFlix on the Premiere is already IPTV- it is video/TV delivered over the Internet Protocol. There is no one standard or technology in use for IPTV. Any type of streaming of video over IP is IPTV, although most people would first think the multicast type (traditional "live" TV multicasting- like your cable TV feed) as opposed to VOD (Video On Demand- like YouTube or NetFlix).

I don't see any technical reasons why the Premiere could not support additional IPTV formats and developments- it supports IP, sits on the Internet, it can buffer, it can decrypt, it can play various streaming video and audio codecs (both hardware accelerated). I am not sure it currently supports multicast over IP (needed for the "live" type of IPTV), but Linux does... and at the heart of TiVo is Linux.

Support U-Verse or not is probably more of a political situation and not technical. Case in point- there are agreements with TiVo and various cable companies (like Cox and Charter) that will start to bring more PPV and VOD to the Premiere. This will be IPTV and accomplished through software updates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iptv
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicast


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> I'm just curious but on a scale from one to ten. One being not important at all to ten being the most important feature you could ask for, how useful would streaming be from one TiVo Premiere box to another?


10


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> zero since I can already transfer any recording I make on FiOS to any of my other TiVos or PC.
> 
> although I do see this as an important feature since most cable systems have restrictions on transfers.


as do I, its absolute Nirvana IMO. But streaming is still a 10. If FIOS turns that CP flag on then my Tivo's go on ebay and my order for a couple of 360's and a ceton card go in. Streaming would make me reconsider that.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

It's about a 10 for this feature. I'd like to really see an integrated NPL with this too.


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## ilovereality (Jan 23, 2007)

smbaker said:


> 10
> 
> Just this week, I wanted to transition from watching the Oscars in the living room to the bedroom. Had to explain to the GF how this was not technologically possible with the Tivo until all 3 hours of it had finished recording. The GF was not pleased. Feels like 1990's tech.


I have done things like this - its not impossible but involves a little work.

Walk into the room you want to view the show in and start recording it - yeah even in the middle of the show.

Go back to the other room and STOP the recording.

Now go back to the room you want to watch in - start a transfer (or start playing the recorded portion in the 1st room and PAUSE it where you were at) from the beginning or paused point.

Now you can what everything you had recorded in the 1st room and when its done - go to the new recording in the current room

Its far from perfect but I really have done it several times when I have needed to change rooms in the middle of a movie or even live sporting event that I was behind the 'live' time on.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

While that does work, it's a very ugly solution to the problem. Tivo is supposed to make recording and viewing easy, not make you jump through hoops.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

MrSkippy53 said:


> Even premium channels like HBO and Stars?


Yes. Any recording I make from any channel I view, so far I'm able to transfer it. I have hbo, showtime, cinemax, EPIX, and the movie channel. All those work. I don't have starz though.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

crxssi said:
 

> And what if you don't have another TiVo and don't want to spend $700 on one and would rather stream your TiVo shows to your Android, iPad, Wii, Xbox, Linux box, Rokku, Apple TV, GoogleTV, or etc?
> 
> $95 http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-1080p-Media-Player/dp/B003MVZ60I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299284758&sr=8-1
> 
> ...


TiVo desktop allows me to automatically transfer the shows and it will automatically convert it to formats for those devices. So once It's setup I could have a show recorded one night and the next morning it will automatically be on my zune player or Android phone.

or I use VideoReDo to transcode it to a folder for my media players to view the HD file.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

vurbano said:


> as do I, its absolute Nirvana IMO. But streaming is still a 10. If FIOS turns that CP flag on then my Tivo's go on ebay and my order for a couple of 360's and a ceton card go in. Streaming would make me reconsider that.


For the pay movie movie channels that are blocked streaming would be great, but for programs with commercials, or other things when you may like to skip parts of the program, streaming would not do the job unless you can jump back and forth; can you with streaming ??


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Sure, why not? You're just skipping to some arbitrary point in the stream (file). Replays do it on the network, WMC does it with extenders, it's not that big a deal.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

lessd said:


> For the pay movie movie channels that are blocked streaming would be great, but for programs with commercials, or other things when you may like to skip parts of the program, streaming would not do the job unless you can jump back and forth; can you with streaming ??


of course. heck even D* HR20's do that. The premieres certainly have the horsepower for it


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

vurbano said:


> of course. heck even D* HR20's do that. The premieres certainly have the horsepower for it


Great now I am a fan of streaming as you can skip the commercials etc.
*OK TiVo get to it!!*


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

lessd said:


> Great now I am a fan of streaming as you can skip the commercials etc.
> *OK TiVo get to it!!*


Some of the difficulties TiVo faces while getting to it.


TiVos will be streaming MPEG2 HD, not MPEG4 as is done by DirecTV. This means home network bandwidth needs are twice as much to support the streams
TiVo will not have a dedicated Moca Bus with QOS controlled by the DVR with which to stream to the other DVR. This means the home network will need to have good bandwidth and a router that will do QOS well.
TiVo will have to provide customer support for users experiencing trouble that could be due to their home network and not the DVR

So while it will be doable for those with excellent home networks, it may take a bit more effort to make it bullet proof enough to use for most average users. These reasons may explain why it has and or will take a while to see this. If TiVo were to sell it as a MoCA upgrade kit, that might be the best way to go.

So for those wanting streaming, would you be willing to buy and install a MoCA kit from TiVo to get it?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

TiVo supports existing networks now. Streaming isn't any more demanding. QoS is not needed. I'd love it if they offered MoCA (and started building it in), but there's no reason to make a streaming offering MoCA-dependent.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> TiVo supports existing networks now. Streaming isn't any more demanding. QoS is not needed. I'd love it if they offered MoCA (and started building it in), but there's no reason to make a streaming offering MoCA-dependent.


Streaming MPEG2 is more demanding than streaming mpeg4, which is what DirecTV does with their MPEG4 HD. Their SD is still MPEG2 and both are streamed.

My thinking about existing networks is that people with weak networks due to wireless interference, or bad setups will blame the DVR and it could become a support headache for TiVo. Providing a dedicated private network via MoCA, as DirecTV does, is one way to avoid that issue altogether.

I am not arguing that TiVo cannot make it work with existing user's home networks, at least most of the time, just that they might not want to for the support reason. And, if that is their reason, a MoCA kit is one way around it. It is still just raw speculation on my part and very definitely in my own humble opinion.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Who cares what DirecTV does? Let's look at what TiVo does, right now. I can MRV a show from one TiVo to another, and most of the time, watch it in real time almost immediately, and even skip commercials. If I had two Premieres, I believe that would be all the time. Yes, I have a good network. Yes, some people have bad networks. But TiVo already deals with that.

Streaming is _exactly the same_, except that no copy is kept on the destination TiVo. Streaming doesn't mean that there's no buffer, and as long as your buffer stays ahead of real time, QoS does approximately nothing.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

I consider the DirecTV comparison because it is a working implementation that is already out there. Nothing more or less.

They went with that design when they didn't have to. I think it could illuminate some of the potential issues.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Who cares what DirecTV does? Let's look at what TiVo does, right now. I can MRV a show from one TiVo to another, and most of the time, watch it in real time almost immediately, and even skip commercials. If I had two Premieres, I believe that would be all the time. Yes, I have a good network. Yes, some people have bad networks. But TiVo already deals with that.
> 
> Streaming is exactly the same, except that no copy is kept on the destination TiVo. Streaming doesn't mean that there's no buffer, and as long as your buffer stays ahead of real time, QoS does approximately nothing.


Yes with multiple premiers it transfers at over 85mbps. An OTA mpeg2 hd stream is at most 19mbps.
I can transfer from my five Premiers to my TiVo desktop pc, all five concurrently with each one transferring at 70mbps. (transfers to TiVo desktop are slower than to another premiere.)


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Oh god, 10? This would replace MRV and negate the CCI bit issue. It's ridiculously more efficient and combining it with a unified NPL and Tuner sharing would make TiVo unstoppable and in my mind completely justify the service fee.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

CuriousMark said:


> They went with that design when they didn't have to. I think it could illuminate some of the potential issues.


AFAICT, neither speed nor QoS were reasons DirecTV chose MoCA. Simplicity of setup _was_ one, but I think a larger goal was to keep the video locked away from potential copying by keeping it off the user's main home network.

For years before MoCA was actually available, they talked about wanting to do networking this way -- meanwhile denying us the ability to use the ordinary Ethernet networking (via USB adapter) that was readily available to standalone TiVo customers. The DirecTiVo hardware had the same capabilities, but the software was intentionally crippled.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> AFAICT, neither speed nor QoS were reasons DirecTV chose MoCA. Simplicity of setup _was_ one, but I think a larger goal was to keep the video locked away from potential copying by keeping it off the user's main home network.
> 
> For years before MoCA was actually available, they talked about wanting to do networking this way -- meanwhile denying us the ability to use the ordinary Ethernet networking (via USB adapter) that was readily available to standalone TiVo customers. The DirecTiVo hardware had the same capabilities, but the software was intentionally crippled.


I wasn't aware that they had talked about MoCA in this way, thanks for explaining. I couldn't agree more with them keeping the network turned off.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I have never needed to stream from one TiVo to the other but I would love to stream copy protected programs from the TiVo to my WDTV Live. I don't ever see that happening.


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## SwampDonkey (Sep 4, 2010)

10


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

12


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## speed_phreak (Apr 6, 2006)

10! I would really like to be able to stream to another tivo, computer, laptop, etc... 

This would overcome a lot of restrictions and enhance our flexibility, isn't that why we bought a tivo in the first place?


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

Rather than stream, couldn't TiVo just add a "move" option to MRV instead of the current method of copying? As long as the program is automatically deleted from the original TiVo after it's copied to a new TiVo, wouldn't that meet the copy protection requirements?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Sure - they just never bothered, probably because they'd have to check with CableLabs or something.

I think it's kinda obvious by now that they are much more interested in keeping the content providers/deliverers happy than the paying customer, because that's where their future revenue source is. I guess.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

generaltso said:


> Rather than stream, couldn't TiVo just add a "move" option to MRV instead of the current method of copying? As long as the program is automatically deleted from the original TiVo after it's copied to a new TiVo, wouldn't that meet the copy protection requirements?


If TiVo can get cable labs to agree, sure.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Would CableLabs have anything to do with it? Isn't CCI byte restrictions defined by the FCC? If "move" is in compliance to the FCC definitions, I would think CableLabs would be required to allow a "move" solution.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

orangeboy said:


> Would CableLabs have anything to do with it? Isn't CCI byte restrictions defined by the FCC? If "move" is in compliance to the FCC definitions, I would think CableLabs would be required to allow a "move" solution.


If CableLabs does not buy in, cable companies could refuse to provide cable cards. I would think they might have a hard time justifying not approving such a soluiton, but they sure could drag their feet in the approval process if they wanted to. They also could bring up a whole host of stupid reasons not to approve that TiVo would have to expend time and energy to shoot down.

It just seems to me that CablLabs is pretty well known for being obstructionist in this kind of way. Now if one of the big cable companies were asking TiVo for this, well then it might be different.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Move would work, but I believe it would still have limitations. 

For example, with Media Center even copy once content can be moved to the home server for back-up. Only the original Media Center can play it back though unless you stream it. Now maybe this is a limitation of Microsoft's software, but I believe Copy Once would tie the recording to the device that recorded it. As a result moving it wouldn't allow playback on the new TiVo. 

Now maybe this has changed, but I know people had issues when they upgraded to the retail edition of Win 7 from the beta because they could no longer play the copy once shows.


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## jonra (Apr 1, 2005)

Well Tivo lost one customer 3 weeks ago to a Verizon FIOS DVR. Our daughter was going to take her TIVO (she bought herself 3 years ago) to her first home. She wanted 3 areas to view TV, etc. 

When she found out from Verizon she could watch all of her recordings in 3 different rooms from the primary Verizon DVR. She gave up her tivo with MRV & comcast cable card... she left it at home, & moved. In addition, interestingly Verizon gave her a better deal than Comcast.

i asked her how she likes the Verizon DVR after 3 weeks. She likes it a lot. Its much cheaper than what it would have cost to have 3 separate tivos on verizon. She can watch all her recordings and all channels in 3 separate rooms...

so, I say "10: if Tivo wants to attract & save more customers.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jonra said:


> Well Tivo lost one customer 3 weeks ago to a Verizon FIOS DVR. Our daughter was going to take her TIVO (she bought herself 3 years ago) to her first home. She wanted 3 areas to view TV, etc.
> 
> When she found out from Verizon she could watch all of her recordings in 3 different rooms from the primary Verizon DVR. She gave up her tivo with MRV & comcast cable card... she left it at home, & moved. In addition, interestingly Verizon gave her a better deal than Comcast.
> 
> ...


If she has enough tuners and storage space with the setup great. But I think many families would prefer 3 DVRs for the increased tuners and storage. With our current upgrade offers and how easy it is to upgrade a Premiere's hard drive one could buy 3 Premiere DVRs with lifetime and upgrade them all to 2TB for around $1650 not bad in my mind.

But I do agree 100% that TiVo needs to get streaming up and running at least with their Premiere units. It is also pretty clear they need a Roku type device for those who don't need or want multiple DVRs but want to stream to multiple TVs like your daughter.

Thanks,


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

atmuscarella said:


> It is also pretty clear they need a Roku type device for those who don't need or want multiple DVRs but want to stream to multiple TVs


Actually, they just need to implement a standard streaming (like DLNA) service, all the hardware devices for stream receiving already exist.

Sadly, although WE all know that if they don't do this, they will get left behind, I don't think TiVo yet understands just how important this is going to be (and already is).


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

crxssi said:


> Actually, they just need to implement a standard streaming (like DLNA) service, all the hardware devices for stream receiving already exist.
> 
> Sadly, although WE all know that if they don't do this, they will get left behind, I don't think TiVo yet understands just how important this is going to be (and already is).


I don't see why TiVo would want to let you stream from a TiVo to a non-TiVo device. Streaming has 3 points of failure, the sources device (in this case a TiVo DVR), the network, and the receiving device. From both a profit and support point of view TiVo would want the receiving device to be something they sold. This just leaves them with dealing with persons network as a potential failure point that isn't under their control plus they get the profit from the receiving device including anything else you stream to it from the Internet (like Netflix, Amazon, Hulu+, etc.).

A good first step would be to get streaming from Premiere to Premiere working and then go from there.

Thanks,


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