# Batwoman: Season 1 - spoilers for aired episodes



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So Bruce Wayne and Batman have both been gone for two years, and no one in Gotham has put two and two together.

I'm surprised they did the big reveal of the "dead" sister being the baddy in the Pilot.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Why would they connect Batman and Bruce Wayne? Why assume that the Batman alter ego isn’t living in downtown Gotham? There is nothing to connect them when they were both in town. Why would a connection arise just because the both are gone?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> I'm surprised they did the big reveal of the "dead" sister being the baddy in the Pilot.


It was blatantly obvious the first time Kate met Alice by the way Alice was behaving. I would have thought a lot less of the show if they didn't reveal it by the end of the episode.

Overall I wasn't that impressed with this show. Pilots tend to be weak, so I'll give it a few more episodes to see if it picks up.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

I was more upset that the inept security guard was in on the Batman secret...
Oh, and that he apparently modified the batsuit to fit Kane in like 5 minutes---and she was an instant expert in all the bat-toys (like the ascender)


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## alpacaboy (Oct 29, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> I'm surprised they did the big reveal of the "dead" sister being the baddy in the Pilot.


What do you mean "baddy"?
She wants to rule Gotham _with _Kate! 

I'm mildly amused by casting a former Bird of Prey as Beth/Alice.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

The Blake Lively quote from Green Lantern came to mind during the rescue scene:

“I’ve known you my whole life! I’ve seen you naked! You don’t think I would recognize you because I can’t see your cheekbones?”

--Carlos "It came with the outfit" V.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Turtleboy said:


> So Bruce Wayne and Batman have both been gone for two years, and no one in Gotham has put two and two together.


Supergirl doesn't even wear a mask, and people that know her closely don't catch wise. I think there must be a genetic mutation for face-blindness in the DC multiverse.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> I was more upset that the inept security guard was in on the Batman secret...
> Oh, and that he apparently modified the batsuit to fit Kane in like 5 minutes---and she was an instant expert in all the bat-toys (like the ascender)


That's not just an "inept security guard" that's Luke Fox son of Lucius Fox who was very close to Bruce/Bats


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

So color me intrigued but disappointed in the look of the show.
There were some choices made in color palate and focus that really bothered me during the pilot, the palate changed within scenes and rarely was consistent, and the focus was off enough so that regularly looked like SD to me including very weird distortion at times as they panned and times when it was very clear there was more going on with the depth of field than just a lens or setting. The scenes where her t-shirt was out of focus and her face wasn't were some of the prime ones where things were just off.

Story-wise it more than worked for me but the technical issues were very distracting.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> That's not just an "inept security guard" that's Luke Fox son of Lucius Fox who was very close to Bruce/Bats


Thanks, I was a little confused about the Lucius/Luke connection. I though this may have been a Spider-Man type thing where Aunt May is now much younger.

Alice epitomizes one of the things that always bugs me about tv shows - obvious, bad wigs.

How many years had Kate been doing extreme training and she almost loses a fight with Alice?

Am I mis-remembering something or did Batwoman's cowl have a flaming red wig attached to it when she appeared on the CW's superhero crossover?

I had no idea who the Crows were until about two thirds of the way through the episode.

I liked it enough to keep watching.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Am I mis-remembering something or did Batwoman's cowl have a flaming red wig attached to it when she appeared on the CW's superhero crossover?


Yeah, that's a weird thing to be missing and I haven't yet seen clips with it for future episodes but I'm assuming there's an episode where she decides to go for it to help identify her over Batman since it's in the lot of promo material, red wig and red bat emblem are pretty obvious, granted the crossover episode may have been a different Batwoman earth version


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Batwoman is in the same universe as Flash and Green Arrow, right?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Batwoman is in the same universe as Flash and Green Arrow, right?


I don't think so. I think they ran into her during a voyage across the multiverse...


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> I don't think so. I think they ran into her during a voyage across the multiverse...


I'm not sure that's exactly right.


Spoiler



I think that in the crossover that Batwoman met them, Flash and Arrow were experiencing their own Earth but in alternate realities created by the magic book that Arkham psychiatrist Deagan was using. They did travel to Kara's Earth 38 to get her and Superman's help.


So I think that, yes, Batwoman is part of Earth Prime. (One?)


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

From what I remember, Batwoman was in Gotham in the main Arrowverse. Of course, because it all took place in the altered "Elseworlds" storyline, they have an easy excuse for any changes they want to make from what was shown during the crossover.

I'm sure it won't ultimately matter once their Crisis on Infinite Earths happens, but if this is the same version of Batwoman that we saw in last season's crossovers, it would appear to be a prequel to that story.

As already mentioned, in the crossover last year, Batwoman was already established in Gotham with her red and black costume with the long red wig. It looks like she's going to take at least a little while before she adopts that costume on this show.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

Nerds


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm guessing that this take place before the events of "Elseworlds" due to the costume and the fact that Kate just came back to Gotham in this episode.

It didn't seem like Barry and Oliver were particularly familiar with Batwoman so maybe their meeting happened shortly after Kate adopted her "traditional" costume.
(Oliver: "What, Batman is a myth so I'm supposed to believe in a Batwoman?")

I wonder if Kate realizes that the Joker is responsible for the death of her mother.
(And possibly whatever happened to Beth.)


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I'm glad I read this thread before watching the show.. and during it.. Helps me know who is who. Even if I dont know who any of the people are.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> Story-wise it more than worked for me but the technical issues were very distracting.


The most distracting for me was how young they tried to make Ruby Rose look. Seriously, Kate Kane's face almost looked CGI-modified. Kate Kane is supposed to be, what, 22 or 23-years-old? Guessing based on Beth and her mom dying 15 years ago, and Kate looked 8(?) at the time. I think some of the weird camera focus may be part of trying to make 33-year-old Ruby Rose appear at least a decade younger. This was most apparent a bit later, when she was marvelling (hah!) at the toys in the Batcave. I'm thinking the uncanny valley effect, but in reverse, in that Kate Kane eerily resembled a human-looking robot.

My favorite scene was just a minor thing. Small detail. When Batwoman and Sophie fall from the building and land on the bed in the trailer and BW is leaving. She tries to open the door, can't, glances at Sophie (us?), and then unlocks the door. I don't why, but I found this hilarious.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Another comic-based TV show meant for entertainment purposes only. I try not to read too much into things as far as being factual or believable. It's all fiction.

Has it become mandatory that every TV show must have at least one LGBT character in the cast? Are there no more heterosexual actors left in the world? It's like every show must have a diverse cast that covers all bases. Has this become some sort of unwritten rule in Hollywood? It's just an observation.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Another comic-based TV show meant for entertainment purposes only. I try not to read too much into things as far as being factual or believable. It's all fiction.
> 
> Has it become mandatory that every TV show must have at least one LGBT character in the cast? Are there no more heterosexual actors left in the world? It's like every show must have a diverse cast that covers all bases. Has this become some sort of unwritten rule in Hollywood? It's just an observation.


The character was written as gay in the comics.

Also, representation is important to LGBTQ kids. They are a part of the population and need to see successful LGBTQ adults who don't end up dead at the end of the story, or who are the subject of ridicule. When I was a kid, there was nobody like me on television who didn't fit into any of the above categories. If there had, I might have accepted myself before I was 30. Instead I spent years hating myself. I wish better for kids now.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Another comic-based TV show meant for entertainment purposes only. I try not to read too much into things as far as being factual or believable. It's all fiction.
> 
> Has it become mandatory that every TV show must have at least one LGBT character in the cast? Are there no more heterosexual actors left in the world? It's like every show must have a diverse cast that covers all bases. Has this become some sort of unwritten rule in Hollywood? It's just an observation.


It's interesting that "each show having one LGBT character" translates to "no more heterosexual actors in the world"...

Also an interesting assumption that an LGBT character means an LGBT actor, or that a heterosexual character means a heterosexual actor.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Has it become mandatory that every TV show must have at least one LGBT character in the cast? Are there no more heterosexual actors left in the world? It's like every show must have a diverse cast that covers all bases. Has this become some sort of unwritten rule in Hollywood? It's just an observation.


You could substitute "African American" for "LGBT" and "white" for "heterosexual" and it'd be tv in the 70s and 80s.


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> You could substitute "African American" for "LGBT" and "white" for "heterosexual" and it'd be tv in the 70s and 80s.


Maybe just creating an interesting characters and stories instead of making sure all of the SJW boxes are checked.


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## lparsons21 (Feb 17, 2015)

PJO1966 said:


> The character was written as gay in the comics.


Not originally. She was supposed to be a love interest of Batman. I haven't read comics in many years so I suppose it could be different now.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

lparsons21 said:


> Not originally. She was supposed to be a love interest of Batman. I haven't read comics in many years so I suppose it could be different now.


No, she was a lesbian from the beginning.

There was an earlier Batwoman, but that was an entirely different character.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

lparsons21 said:


> Not originally. She was supposed to be a love interest of Batman. I haven't read comics in many years so I suppose it could be different now.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


The current version (Kate) was introduced in 2006 and has always been a lesbian and Bruce's cousin. The Kathy version that dated Batman has been established as a separate character.

Edit: What Rob said.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, she was a lesbian from the beginning.
> 
> There was an earlier Batwoman, but that was an entirely different character.


This got me to Google and I stumbled upon the below article. I was thinking they made a change from Barbara Gordon, but that's actually Batgirl. I've never read comic books and didn't know the history of Batgirl and Batwoman. Article also mentions the Kate and Kathy versions of Batwoman.

How To Tell The Difference Between Batwoman & Batgirl


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

crazywater said:


> Maybe just creating an interesting characters and stories instead of making sure all of the SJW boxes are checked.


and how does that represent inclusivity? The "SJW Boxes" as you flippantly refer to them are about showing inclusivity and diversity so that all types of people are represented and people can look up to others that are like them, especially to help those younger people to let them know they're not alone as @PJO1966 calls out in his post.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

crazywater said:


> Maybe just creating an interesting characters and stories instead of making sure all of the SJW boxes are checked.


They are creating interesting characters and stories. They just don't happen to look, think and act like you.


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> They are creating interesting characters and stories. They just don't happen to look, think and act like you.


They don't have to look, think and act like me. I wouldn't watch that show. I would watch a show that has engaging and likable characters that make you want to watch and root for them. That sure ain't this show. If you like it, I am thrilled for you. Enjoy it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

crazywater said:


> They don't have to look, think and act like me. I wouldn't watch that show. I would watch a show that has engaging and likable characters that make you want to watch and root for them. That sure ain't this show. If you like it, I am thrilled for you. Enjoy it.


Wow. One episode and you've decided if you would root for the characters. Or are you imprinting that decision onto something else? BTW, these characters are pretty popular in the comic book world. So far, they match.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

lparsons21 said:


> Not originally. She was supposed to be a love interest of Batman. I haven't read comics in many years so I suppose it could be different now.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Eeewww. She's Batman's first cousin!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Eeewww. She's Batman's first cousin!


He's talking about the 50s Batwoman, who was most definitely NOT Bruce's cousin!


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He's talking about the 50s Batwoman, who was most definitely NOT Bruce's cousin!


She was later revealed as his aunt by marriage, but her husband had died by the time she became involved with Bruce.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

The 1950's Batwoman (Kathy Kane) was created to tamp down the "blatant homosexuality" of Batman comics, what with the sausage fest situation of Bruce, Dick, and Alfred living by themselves in Wayne Manor and spending all their free time in dark caves and back alleys and Bruce and Dick running around in tights.

So Kathy Kane was introduced as a love interest for Batman.
And in parallel, Kathy's niece, Bette Kane or Bat-Girl (note the hyphen) was introduced as a love interest for Robin.

Kate Kane is a completely different character who has a similar name (and some background overlap) as a nod to the original character.

Kate Kane has also been a lesbian from Day one.

(So any chance of Renee Montoya showing up?)


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He's talking about the 50s Batwoman, who was most definitely NOT Bruce's cousin!


I know. It was funny. But did he know?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's interesting that "each show having one LGBT character" translates to "no more heterosexual actors in the world"...
> 
> Also an interesting assumption that an LGBT character means an LGBT actor, or that a heterosexual character means a heterosexual actor.


I misspoke. I didn't mean to imply that every actor portraying a gay character was gay in real life. There are lots of gay actors playing heterosexual characters and vice versa. It was not my intent to bash the lifestyle. I'm actually good friends with several gays and transgender people. It just seems that there are a vast number of shows that are including gay characters as part of the ensemble. It seems gratuitous in some cases and doesn't necessarily add value to the story. It's almost like Hollywood has some sort of unwritten quota that show producers have to meet when deciding on what characters are included in any given show. It's almost becoming a cliché by having a token gay person in the cast. Perhaps I should have included a sarcastic emogee along with the comment about there being no more heterosexual characters in the world. It's almost like everyone is coming out of the closet on TV these days. I know that they like to keep casts of shows diverse so adding more characters of this type is just an expansion of ethnic characters and the like.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of tv roles are still being written and cast as straight. We just happen to notice the tv gay roles now because they practically didn't exist for most of our lives other than as punch lines. And with the CW superhero shows that I watch, they may not be the lead roles but they're usually important secondary and tertiary roles that play a part in every episode. I'm not claiming to be the most evolved person on the issue, because I definitely am not but with the recent death of pioneering actress Diahann Carroll, I'm reminded how important it is for people usually in society's margins to see themselves reflected positively in today's world and that involves silly superhero tv shows too.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

crazywater said:


> They don't have to look, think and act like me. I wouldn't watch that show. I would watch a show that has engaging and likable characters that make you want to watch and root for them. That sure ain't this show. If you like it, I am thrilled for you. Enjoy it.


What about her being a lesbian made her not engaging and not likable?

-smak-


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

crazywater said:


> They don't have to look, think and act like me. I wouldn't watch that show. I would watch a show that has engaging and likable characters that make you want to watch and root for them. That sure ain't this show. If you like it, I am thrilled for you. Enjoy it.





smak said:


> What about her being a lesbian made her not engaging and not likable?


 
I think this discussion has run its course.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Maybe I'm being a male chauvinist pig but Ruby Rose's really long neck weirds me out a little.

I guess I can deal with the whole Alice in Wonderland motif but did Alice really need to write Kate a letter with a quill pen?

Thank goodness Sophie told Kate to move the hell on. I know that subplot isn't really going to go away but I'm in it for the superhero butt kickings not love life drama.

Is Kate riding her personal motorcycle when she's dressed as Batwoman? A license plate lookup should be an easy way to figure out Batwoman's alter ego if that's the case.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

After seeing "Joker" last week, it's a little jarring to go from Gotham City looking like 1979 New York City back to this show, where Gotham City looks like 2019 Chicago (except for the parts that look like 2019 Vancouver). I know, I know, different versions of reality.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think the show needs work. It's not great. I'll stick with it for a bit longer though.


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## lparsons21 (Feb 17, 2015)

Not me. It just isn’t grabbing me in any way.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

lparsons21 said:


> It just isn't grabbing me in any way.


I'm feeling that way also. It isn't horrible, but I'm just not loving any of the stories or characters.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I haven't watched ep2 yet. But the acting in ep1 was so, so bad. I mean like SO bad. I'll give it a few more just because, pilot. But... so bad.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I haven't watched ep2 yet. But the acting in ep1 was so, so bad. I mean like SO bad. I'll give it a few more just because, pilot. But... so bad.


I don't have a problem with the acting of any character other than Alice. Playing an insane person is hard enough. Playing an insane comic book influenced Alice in Wonderland with crappy dialog is really hard.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Coming from the MCU I'm unable to geek out over background stuff that might make this show more interesting to me. But I can enjoy the DCU style. 

I'm always struck by how dark-but-not-deep DC characters are. But this time, less dark — must they continue to so obviously use daylight shots of Chicago? — and definitely less deep. 

Not dark, not deep, but definitely dry. As in Kate's kisses. But alliteration aside, I'm not going there.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't have a problem with the acting of any character other than Alice. Playing an insane person is hard enough. Playing an insane comic book influenced Alice in Wonderland with crappy dialog is really hard.


Playing it more like Harley Quinn.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Episode 2 had the same funky artifacts from them playing with what I have to assume are digital filters for the video, it's very off-putting.
re: batsuit design:


Spoiler



it does look like they address the red logo and wig within the next few episodes


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I guess Kate and Beth are supposed to be fraternal twins because they don't look alike.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

My guess is that it would have been to demanding and production extensive to have Ruby Rose play both Kate and Beth/Alice.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> My guess is that it would have been to demanding and production extensive to have Ruby Rose play both Kate and Beth/Alice.


Or they're just following the comic, whose characters the actors pretty strongly resemble...


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## Michael S (Jan 12, 2004)

With Batman gone did all the villians just leave Gotham too? Also where did commissioner Gordon go? When Bruce left did he take the keys to the batmobile with him?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Your comment about Commissioner Gordon made me wonder---how is it that the GCPD abdicated police powers to the "Crows"?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

maybe the mayor did that?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm going to stick with this show for a while but I'm beginning to lose hope. Alice is a terrible villain. Kate seems to think that being a crime fighter means letting a multiple murder off with a stern warning. How did millionaire d-bag even know that Bruce had a rail gun? Apparently, secret identities aren't so secret on this show. And it looks like we're going to get a heavy dose of CW relationship drama between Kate, Sophie, Kate's new girlfriend and Sophie's husband.

Does the female social media voice over sound like Rachel Maddow to anybody else?


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

cheesesteak said:


> Does the female social media voice over sound like Rachel Maddow to anybody else?


it's rachel.

and, i agree with most, if not all, of your critique of the show at this point - i'm not sure how long i will last if it doesn't improve.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Does the female social media voice over sound like Rachel Maddow to anybody else?


Um...yes?

The big hope I have for the show is that so far, it's been an extended origin story (both for Batwoman and for the Gotham they're showing). Once it settles into the show it wants to be, hopefully we can put all this behind us and just enjoy the show itself.

Which is kinda too bad...the introduction of BW in the big crossover was quite a good hook. They should have just gone from there, and filled in the backstory as backstory and not several episodes of main story.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which is kinda too bad...the introduction of BW in the big crossover was quite a good hook. They should have just gone from there, and filled in the backstory as backstory and not several episodes of main story.


That's how I feel about almost all superhero origin stories. Start out in full character, kick butt mode and fill in the boring origin parts as flashbacks.

I only watched this episode on Sunday night because the Eagles were getting blowed out by the Cowboys in Dallas and I couldn't watch it any more. I'm not sure which experience was worse.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> Does the female social media voice over sound like Rachel Maddow to anybody else?


Hah! No, because she doesn't take most of the hour describing every character involved in the story, not getting to the point until you're almost ready to give up. In Batwoman, that's what the rest of the show is like though.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Hah! No, because she doesn't take most of the hour describing every character involved in the story, not getting to the point until you're almost ready to give up. In Batwoman, that's what the rest of the show is like though.


Heh.

Except it is her.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Turtleboy said:


> Heh.
> 
> Except it is her.


OK, it's her. But clearly someone else is writing this script... and they got it backwards. 

Rachel Maddow Joins The CW's 'Batwoman' (Exclusive)

Maddow has tweeted, "My character is soooo not me; turns out playing her is one of the most fun things I've ever done".


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> How did millionaire d-bag even know that Bruce had a rail gun?


In the comics, Tommy Elliot is a major Batman baddie known as Hush.
With the aid of the Riddler (which was pretty much stated in this episode), he found out that Bruce Wayne is Batman and decided to take revenge on his childhood friend.
So he has resources and hate on his side and could have paid off someone to find out.

It's strange because they did correctly tell Tommy's backstory as to why he hates Bruce Wayne but pretty much treated him as a throwaway villain.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Um...yes?
> 
> The big hope I have for the show is that so far, it's been an extended origin story (both for Batwoman and for the Gotham they're showing). Once it settles into the show it wants to be, hopefully we can put all this behind us and just enjoy the show itself.
> 
> Which is kinda too bad...the introduction of BW in the big crossover was quite a good hook. They should have just gone from there, and filled in the backstory as backstory and not several episodes of main story.


It's been a bit slower than it should've been but I wouldn't want another Arrow flashback show.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> In the comics, Tommy Elliot is a major Batman baddie known as Hush.
> With the aid of the Riddler (which was pretty much stated in this episode), he found out that Bruce Wayne is Batman and decided to take revenge on his childhood friend.
> So he has resources and hate on his side and could have paid off someone to find out.
> 
> It's strange because they did correctly tell Tommy's backstory as to why he hates Bruce Wayne but pretty much treated him as a throwaway villain.


He is a throwaway if he never appears again. Not a throwaway yet.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I said "pretty much".
Yes, he can always come back but it didn't feel to me like that was what they were working towards.

Otherwise, you can easily substitute in Calendar Man, Kite Man, Killer Moth, or even Condiment King, rejigger the script a tad to eliminate them knowing Bruce is Batman (he heard about the rail gun through sources and decided to steal it to use on "Batman") and it's pretty much the same episode.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought it was kinda odd that regular GCPD officers were investigating Bruce's secret weapons depot.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

It was a Wayne R&D facility that had weapons.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

They let Alice and Mouse go? WTF? 

I'm in until the cross over episodes but I think I'll drop this show after that unless it improves dramatically. Kate might be the dumbest crime fighter ever.


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## alpacaboy (Oct 29, 2004)

I kind of liked last night's episode with Alice's origin.
Usually, I'm a little bored.

But yeah, after the crossover, I'll reassess whether to keep watching.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

The other thing about last night's episode is that Batwoman didn't show up at all..


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

I’m enjoying it but didn’t understand the release of Beth/Alice and Mouse either.


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## alpacaboy (Oct 29, 2004)

Didn't they release Mouse and Alice because Alice was threatening to shoot the Dad some more?
I don't remember exactly. Honestly, I don't pay full attention.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

alpacaboy said:


> Didn't they release Mouse and Alice because Alice was threatening to shoot the Dad some more?
> I don't remember exactly. Honestly, I don't pay full attention.


Everybody was threatening to shoot everybody else. It was either both sides let the other go, or there would be a bloodbath.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Amnesia said:


> The other thing about last night's episode is that Batwoman didn't show up at all..


Sure she did. When she captured Alice in the dark using night vision lenses built into her mask.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Everybody was threatening to shoot everybody else. It was either both sides let the other go, or there would be a bloodbath.


Wasn't it two guns to one? I'd have taken those odds.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm not a Batman fan of any kind. Never got into it except Gotham on CW. So I'm probably missing a lot, but I like this show. Not the greatest ever, but pretty good. :up:


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I'm not a Batman fan of any kind. Never got into it except Gotham on CW. So I'm probably missing a lot, but I like this show. Not the greatest ever, but pretty good. :up:


You don't really need to know much other than Batman existed at one point.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Kate might be the dumbest crime fighter ever.


"You're the worst Iron Fist ever."


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## alpacaboy (Oct 29, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> I'm not a Batman fan of any kind. Never got into it except Gotham on CW. So I'm probably missing a lot, but I like this show. Not the greatest ever, but pretty good. :up:


Really, it probably helps.

I grew up reading a bunch of DC comics, and I tend to be more critical of movies/tv with the DC heroes.
But with Marvel, I'm not as invested in the original stories/origins/relationships so I can just sit back and enjoy the movie.(most of the time)


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

alpacaboy said:


> Really, it probably helps.
> 
> I grew up reading a bunch of DC comics, and I tend to be more critical of movies/tv with the DC heroes.
> But with Marvel, I'm not as invested in the original stories/origins/relationships so I can just sit back and enjoy the movie.(most of the time)


Funny. I'm more of a DC fan but Marvel movies can drive me crazy because they actually seem to deviate more than DC. The father of Starlord in the movies versus the tv cartoon versus the comics drives me nuts.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I grew up with the campy mid 60s Batman tv show and movie. The dark, moody, miserable Batman of recent years aren't my thing so much.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> I grew up with the campy mid 60s Batman tv show and movie. The dark, moody, miserable Batman of recent years aren't my thing so much.


I grew up with the campy Bat n' Boy Wonder too, but today's batpeeps are more consistent with the original of the pulp era. He even shot crooks back then.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

looks as if it's moving from sunday night at 8/7 central to tuesday at 9/8 central on the 26th.


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## tigercat74 (Aug 7, 2004)

NorthAlabama said:


> looks as if it's moving from sunday night at 8/7 central to tuesday at 9/8 central on the 26th.


Is that permanent or just for the crossover event?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The last two episodes haven't been as Alice-centric as the previous ones and I've liked them... until Alice showed up. Having an Alice In Wonderland based villain as the recurring big bad was a terrible idea. Nothing against the actress. It's just a bad role.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

tigercat74 said:


> Is that permanent or just for the crossover event?


Crossover doesn't start until December.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> looks as if it's moving from sunday night at 8/7 central to tuesday at 9/8 central on the 26th.


Could that be a local change for Thanksgiving week? I'm in Hawaiʻi on Spectrum cable, and, at least on my schedule right now on Sunday 11/24 they are rerunning S01E02: The Rabbit Hole. On Sunday 12/1 is S01E08: A Mad Tea Party. No Tuesday Batwoman on the schedule at all for me.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

TiVo says it is episode 8 titled “Reset” with no description. According to IMDb, episode 8 is “A Mad Tea Party” in December 1. 

Methinks we got some rovi madness.

Ah. It looks like it is an Arrow episode mislabeled as Batwoman. Fer sure Rovi madness.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

TonyD79 said:


> Ah. It looks like it is an Arrow episode mislabeled as Batwoman. Fer sure Rovi madness.


Confirmed:

For 11/26 9 PM, TiVo lists a Batwoman episode but Channels DVR shows an Arrow episode, both titled "Reset".

For 12/1 8 PM, TiVo has no listing yet but Channels DVR shows Batwoman S01E8, "A Mad Tea Party".

TiVo will probably be corrected as we get closer to those dates. Channels DVR pulls guide data from SiliconDust.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Having the show's exteriors be Chicago, and then having a character referring to as having gone "upstate," created some cognitive dissonance in me.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

trainman said:


> Having the show's exteriors be Chicago, and then having a character referring to as having gone "upstate," created some cognitive dissonance in me.


Evanston?


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

rockford.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

I did not finish last week's episode, and was about to cancel my OnePass when I remembered the coming crossover. I guess I'll soldier on through that at least. It will be my first time watching the other DC shows too. And we can depend on TCF for a thread to help us schedule the recordings of course: Crisis on Infinite Earths, Dec. 8-10


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> I did not finish last week's episode, and was about to cancel my OnePass when I remembered the coming crossover. I guess I'll soldier through that at least.


ditto.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> And we can depend on TCF for a thread to help us schedule the recordings of course: Crisis on Infinite Earths, Dec. 8-10


It's actually a 5 episode event, spanning the holiday hiatus of episodes. So three before the break and two when episodes return in January.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Peter000 said:


> It's actually a 5 episode event, spanning the holiday hiatus of episodes. So three before the break and two when episodes return in January.


Looking at the guide, I also found two behind-the-scenes shows. Probably meant for fangeeks, but maybe also useful for those of us who don't know all the DC characters. Search for "Crisis Aftermath" and you'll find "I" and "II". We'll have to wait until January to find out if there's a "III" and "IV".

In the trailer Kate meets Bruce. Or at least, _a_ Bruce.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

As great as the multi-Supermen will be, I'm most looking forward to seeing Kevin Conroy playing a live-action Bruce.

My wish is that they somehow got Mark Hamill to secretly show up as the Joker.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm pretty sure I'm out on this show after this week's episode. I just can't take any more of Alice and the way the hack writers have made her omniscient and omnipresent. Every crime fighter on this show is a moron, including Batwoman. Alice has killed 157 people and Batwoman kept cutting her slack instead of holding her for the Crows resulting in Alice killing even more people.

I feel kinda bad in giving up on this show since I wanted it to succeed because I like comic superhero shows and because of the demographic it was primarily (secondarily?) aimed towards but the CW's best superhero writers were obviously busy with their other shows. Their average writers too.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Technically Kate decided to let Alice die, but a deus ex machina killed Beth so Alice lived. Kate has basically given up on trying to save Alice. 

My major problem with the story lately, is that there is no universal rule that two different multiverse versions of the same person can’t exist on the same Earth. I suppose Crisis May have changed those rules, but having multiple versions of the same character in common place on Flash and Arrow, which exist in the same universe. 

That and how not just one, but two people managed to not only find where Beth was hidden, but bypass tons of crow checkpoints to reach her and kill her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The weird thing is the second time she wasn't hidden; she was leaving town. And yet the sniper knew to set up at the exact point where she stopped for a moment.

And how did Alice get his phone number? Or even know he was still alive?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Alice didn’t call Mouse’s father. She called the Crow tips hotline to report an “Alice sighting”. Mouse’s father thought he was killing Alice. 

I was hoping Alice would die and Mouse’s father would take over as the big bad, but I guess no such luck.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The weird thing is the second time she wasn't hidden; she was leaving town. And yet the sniper knew to set up at the exact point where she stopped for a moment.


TWO snipers! The whole "Beth must leave town" thing made little sense. Just let her hang out in the Bat Cave until things settle down. I know Kate mentioned something about the Crows eventually finding the secret entrance, but what were the odds of that happening? They wouldn't even be looking for a secret entrance.

I had actually thought that when Alice would die Beth would reveal that the universe somehow transformed her into Alice or something as stupid as that.


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## oscarfish (Mar 2, 2009)

I can't tell if this show is getting worse or just started bad and is not improving. The Alice thing has gone on way too long and is just a chore to get though at this point.

I did like the contrast of Beth and Alice, shows how much the actress playing them is acting.

I liked Kate in Crisis. I was hopeful that that likable, unpouty, confident and competent Kate would carry over to this show. I guess not.

To sum it all up, it's a CW "super hero" show.

ps. I'm writing this before watching the 2/23 episode, maybe that one will make me feel silly for complaining.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

This show has grown on me over the last 4 or 5 episodes even though the wretched Alice character and story line show no sign of ever ending. The fight sequences seem to have gotten better.

Is the "kryptonite can penetrate the bat suit" idea from the comics? I thought kryptonite was only a Superman thing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Is the "kryptonite can penetrate the bat suit" idea from the comics? I thought kryptonite was only a Superman thing.


They've been kinda vague on that, but my impression is that Lucius Fox invented a weapon that can penetrate the armor she uses, and it uses Kryptonite as a component (perhaps for the bullets?).

They made of point of noting this week that normal armor-piercing ammo can't pierce her armor.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

I was thrown by the Kryptonite thing too. The episode from two weeks back, at the end when Alice says "kryptonite," I figured maybe they had it all wrong, and the weapon in the journal was something Batman and Lucius Fox came up with to take down Superman, if necessary. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice came to mind. I thought it was just an anti-Kryptonian thing.

This week definitely corrected that misperception. Luke Fox, on a couple of occasions I can remember, says kryptonite can _penetrate_ the Batsuit. First to Kate, in her office, then to Mary in the Batcave.

It annoyed the heck out of mean when Luke says, "I've tried acetic, sulfuric, and hydrochloric -- all nonreactive. I can see why this thing can penetrate the Batsuit." Sure. The latter is an obvious conclusion based on the former. At least we know kryptonite is immune to being dissolved in a salad vinaigrette.

Also, the Desert Eagle round shown to Jacob Kane looked mushroomed, like it was a hollow point, not FMJ or AP. Not the best test, but I get the point they were trying to make. So the Batsuit is otherwise impenetrable? I suppose in the Marvel Universe, it'd be made of admantium, like Ultron.

Yeah, I love to pick nits, but I'm still watching and enjoying it. Same day viewing for me.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

justen_m said:


> So the Batsuit is otherwise impenetrable? I suppose in the Marvel Universe, it'd be made of admantium, like Ultron.


When Kid Fox gave her the new supersuit, he made a point of how invulnerable she'd be in it.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Somebody could always shoot her in the face parts that aren't covered.

Did Alice get amnesia while in Arkham or something? She knows who Batwoman is, knows where she lives and works. They've proven ad infinitum that Alice can magically get anywhere. Just shoot Kate when she's not wearing the suit.

Was that the season finale or did they just run out of episodes that were in the can before covid?


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Was that the season finale or did they just run out of episodes that were in the can before covid?


I don't know. Killing Mouse and introducing imposter Bruce seems like it could be leading up to the next season. Then again, maybe the kryptonite shard/fake Bruce storyline gets wrapped up quickly. I don't remembering seeing an ad for a new Batwoman episode in two weeks (Stargirl repeat is in its Sunday time slot).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Was that the season finale or did they just run out of episodes that were in the can before covid?


There was one episode left unfilmed.

_Batwoman _Boss Talks About Ending Season With That Bat-tastic Reveal, Supergirl 'Cameo' That Didn't Happen


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

Ruby Rose has exited the role of Batwoman. CW to recast the role for Season 2.

Ruby Rose Exits the CW's 'Batwoman', DC Series To Recast Iconic Lead Role For Season 2 - Deadline


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

osu1991 said:


> Ruby Rose has exited the role of Batwoman. CW to recast the role for Season 2.
> 
> Ruby Rose Exits the CW's 'Batwoman', DC Series To Recast Iconic Lead Role For Season 2 - Deadline


Whoa! Losing Ruby Rose is majorly bad. I am definitely curious to see who is cast, and how things turn out.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dang. I bet there's quite a story behind that...


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

She apparently had a pretty severe spinal injury, a couple of herniated disks or something, which required surgery to prevent paralysis. Her departure isn't supposed to be related, but I suspect it was a factor.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

osu1991 said:


> Ruby Rose has exited the role of Batwoman. CW to recast the role for Season 2.
> 
> Ruby Rose Exits the CW's 'Batwoman', DC Series To Recast Iconic Lead Role For Season 2 - Deadline


Maybe they should just have the woman who plays Alice do it. Then they could be identical twins instead of fraternal twins.

(no, don't do this, it's not a great idea)


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dang. I bet there's quite a story behind that...





Shakhari said:


> She apparently had a pretty severe spinal injury, a couple of herniated disks or something, which required surgery to prevent paralysis. Her departure isn't supposed to be related, but I suspect it was a factor.


Reading between the lines of the Deadline piece, I'd guess that she wasn't cut out for the schedule of a weekly TV series (not all actors are), especially one as physically demanding as this one.
That plus her injuries probably pushed her to decide to exit.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Her departure doesn't bode well for the show. Lots of series survive changing cast members and recasting roles, but the only show I can think of that has ever survived recasting its lead role is Doctor Who.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Spartacus is one recent show that survived being forced to recast its title character after one season.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Hmmm. And they just happen to have a villain who can give a person a new face...

I think it's pretty lame for the star of a tv show to quit with no explanation for the show's fans.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I think it's pretty lame for the star of a tv show to quit with no explanation for the show's fans.


Well, it's only been 24 hours. Less. I suspect there will be exit interviews coming, since the split seems amiable (which is really rare; usually, when a contracted actor leaves a show it's because somebody on one side or the other got REALLY pissed!).


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, it's only been 24 hours. Less. I suspect there will be exit interviews coming, since the split seems amiable (which is really rare; usually, when a contracted actor leaves a show it's because somebody on one side or the other got REALLY pissed!).


But I want to know why NOW.


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## KDeFlane (Jan 29, 2014)

cheesesteak said:


> But I want to know why NOW.


This might be a start for you. 
Ruby Rose's Batwoman Exit: The Story Behind Her Shocking Departure


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

So basically, she wasn't happy being there, and they weren't happy having her there.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Ruby Rose Leaving 'Batwoman' After One Season, Will Be Replaced for Season 2



> In case you hadn't heard before, Ruby Rose sustained a pretty serious back injury while performing a stunt during the show's first season. Rose herniated two discs, which made it difficult for her to feel her arms at times and risked giving her facial paralysis, not to mention coming close to severing her spinal cord. The actress underwent emergency surgery and returned to work. Although Rose's full statement claims her departure has nothing to do with that injury, one can't help but wonder if it played some part in her decision to leave the show, if only for her physical well-being.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

I may be in the minority here, but I'm kind of excited about the news. Ruby Rose was easily the worst part of the show IMO. While she definitely looks the part, she can't act her way out of a paper bag. The supporting cast was enough to keep me involved with the show, so I'm looking forward to see who they come up with to replace her.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Agreed, I watched like 3 episodes and I think she made it hard for me to watch. Might catch up now that I know she's being recast


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

David Platt said:


> I may be in the minority here, but I'm kind of excited about the news. Ruby Rose was easily the worst part of the show IMO. While she definitely looks the part, she can't act her way out of a paper bag. The supporting cast was enough to keep me involved with the show, so I'm looking forward to see who they come up with to replace her.


While I'm not as harsh in my opinion as you, it did seem to me that her acting was on the weak side.
But I thought that "her attitude" might be able to overcome it.

The situation reminds me of when they initially cast Genevieve Bujold as Captain Janeway in Star Trek: Voyager.
She's a great film actress but it turns out she couldn't handle the schedule of a weekly TV show and was making everyone around her unhappy.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Not sad to see Ruby go. I hope they are able to find a better replacement. I stuck out the first season just because it was a DC show and I watch them all (Except Black Lightning, made it through the first season and just never picked it back up) and BW was the worst of the bunch although Supergirl with the new SJW vibe isnt far behind.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

KungFuCow said:


> Not sad to see Ruby go. I hope they are able to find a better replacement. I stuck out the first season just because it was a DC show and I watch them all (Except Black Lightning, made it through the first season and just never picked it back up) and BW was the worst of the bunch although Supergirl with the new SJW vibe isnt far behind.


Too bad for you, I think Black Lightning got awesome as it ended. Best of the bunch, IMO. Ok, maybe not the best, but equal to Legends. More enjoyable than the others. Ruby Rose was just so pretty to look at, but she couldn't pull off being the young person her character was. Maybe just because I've seen here in more mature roles in movies, where she also kicks ass.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

justen_m said:


> Too bad for you, I think Black Lightning got awesome as it ended. Best of the bunch, IMO. Ok, maybe not the best, but equal to Legends. More enjoyable than the others. Ruby Rose was just so pretty to look at, but she couldn't pull off being the young person her character was. Maybe just because I've seen here in more mature roles in movies, where she also kicks ass.


Im sure Ill pick it up. A lot of shows fall off my radar and then I catch up. Just finished catching up on 2 seasons of Good Girls. BL is on my radar. With the COVID and remote working, I dont seem to have as much time to catch up as I did before (Sounds weird, I know). I used to watch an episode at lunch when at the office, I just dont do that at home.

Legends is pretty awesome. I think I like that one more than The Flash.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

justen_m said:


> Ruby Rose was just so pretty to look at, but she couldn't pull off being the young person her character was.


Was Kate supposed to be younger than Rose? The actresses who played Kate, Alice/Beth, and Sophie were all born in 1985/86. Kate and Beth are twins and Kate and Sophie were in the same class at school, so it makes sense that they'd all be the same age.

I never got the sense that any of them were supposed to be playing younger than their true ages. Given Sophie's high-ranking position with the Crows, mid-30s seems pretty realistic for her.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

The only interesting character is Alice. Losing Ruby Rose is probably a good thing.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

cbrrider said:


> The only interesting character is Alice. Losing Ruby Rose is probably a good thing.


Sly and the Family Stone said it best: "Different strokes for different folks." To me, Alice is the 2nd worst character in CW superhero show history behind only Mona from Legends.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mona I liked. Alice, not so much.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Sly and the Family Stone said it best: "Different strokes for different folks." To me, Alice is the 2nd worst character in CW superhero show history behind only Mona from Legends.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Mona I liked. Alice, not so much.


Haven't watched Legends. I'll give it a try, and see.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

cbrrider said:


> Haven't watched Legends. I'll give it a try, and see.


Just a note, Legends from season 3 onward is very, very different from seasons 1 and 2. Keep that in mind if you feel like you can't manage to make your way through season 1.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, eventually it gives in to its own insanity, and becomes a much better show (IMO)...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, eventually it gives in to its own insanity, and becomes a much better show (IMO)...


Went from a chore to a show I look forward to. Beebo lives!


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

morac said:


> Just a note, Legends from season 3 onward is very, very different from seasons 1 and 2. Keep that in mind if you feel like you can't manage to make your way through season 1.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, eventually it gives in to its own insanity, and becomes a much better show (IMO)...


Copy that. I just watched the JLA Dark movie and that reminded me that Constantine was in Legends, so I'll watch just to see their interpretation of John Constantine.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

cbrrider said:


> Copy that. I just watched the JLA Dark movie and that reminded me that Constantine was in Legends, so I'll watch just to see their interpretation of John Constantine.


You may want to check out the Constantine show that was on NBC a few years ago. It streams for free on the CWSeed app and webplayer. I think it's on DC Universe too.

It's the same actor, he made a cameo on a few Arrow episodes after nbc cancelled the show, then moved over to Legends for a story arc before becoming a regular on Legends.

Constantine on CW Seed | Home of the Original Digital Comedy Series


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

...although the Constantine show had a fairly different tone than Legends...

The actor does love the character, though, and I'll bet he's having a lot of fun now!


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

osu1991 said:


> You may want to check out the Constantine show that was on NBC a few years ago. It streams for free on the CWSeed app and webplayer. I think it's on DC Universe too.
> 
> It's the same actor, he made a cameo on a few Arrow episodes after nbc cancelled the show, then moved over to Legends for a story arc before becoming a regular on Legends.
> 
> Constantine on CW Seed | Home of the Original Digital Comedy Series


I saw it when it first aired and I liked it. Too bad it was canceled.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, eventually it gives in to its own insanity, and becomes a much better show (IMO)...


And Legends 86'd their dead weight and crappy characters over the years.

CW does crossover shows but the one crossover I'd love to see would be Legends and Supernatural, mostly because of John Constantine.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> CW does crossover shows but the one crossover I'd love to see would be Legends and Supernatural, mostly because of John Constantine.


Did you miss that episode? 

(Seriously, they did a kinda-sorta crossover...)


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Did you miss that episode?
> 
> (Seriously, they did a kinda-sorta crossover...)


It was like a 2% crossover.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

'Batwoman': Title Character To Have New Identity Following Ruby Rose's Exit

'Batwoman' Title Character To Have New Identity Following Ruby Rose's Exit - Deadline


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Meh. A new character who is Batwoman and is a lesbian but is not Kate Kane? Sounds clunky (forced). If we can survive multiple Flashes (movies and tv) we can survive a new face for Kate.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Meh. A new character who is Batwoman and is a lesbian but is not Kate Kane? Sounds clunky (forced). If we can survive multiple Flashes (movies and tv) we can survive a new face for Kate.


It makes sense, though, if she's inspired to take up the mantle because she identifies with Batwoman...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It makes sense, though, if she's inspired to take up the mantle because she identifies with Batwoman...


It's a stretch. Part of the Batwoman story is that she is the off side of Bruce Wayne's family. If they do bring in a phony Bruce the connection isn't the same unless it is yet another family member. It is all so forced. Just recast they role and move on. Jeez, they even have the face changing "technology" built in to the story.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't mind the new character. It's not like I'd ever heard of Kate Kane before the tv show. I'm not sure I like this though:


> Per the casting notice, first reported by Decider, Ryan is "likable, messy, a little goofy and untamed" and "nothing like Kate Kane, the woman who wore the batsuit before her. A former drug-runner, the now-reformed and sober Ryan lives in her van with her plant and is a highly skilled but wildly undisciplined fighter.


I'm not sure I want to deal with another origin story that takes up multiple episodes before she starts kicking butt. Then again, maybe they can now dispatch Alice with a quickness since she no longer has a connection to Kate.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Then again, maybe they can now dispatch Alice with a quickness since she no longer has a connection to Kate.


Seriously. They didn't have enough single-villain episodes, IMO. I certainly don't mind season-long arcs, but they should have established the character first...


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

How do you even do this after having a whole season built around Kate Kane, Alice, etc. Its like you'd have to push reset, build a whole new story line and act like the other stuff never existed. Sure, you could make her at odds with the Crows but how do you integrate everything else? How do you explain what happened to Kate off camera? "Well, she just got sick of being Batwoman and chasing her girlfriend and said peace out!"

Hopefully its not a full reset and they manage to get RR to come back and at least do some kind of hand off.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

KungFuCow said:


> Hopefully its not a full reset and they manage to get RR to come back and at least do some kind of hand off.


That'd be good. The reports don't indicate any hard feelings between Rose and the producers, but who really knows...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

My final judgement will be how they handle it. Just seems unnecessary.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Javicia Leslie is the new Batwoman.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

'Batwoman' Casts Javicia Leslie as New Series Lead - Variety


----------



## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

I really liked her on God Friended Me. Drawing from that well, I'd have preferred Violet Beane, but she already existed in DC universe. Same one? Don't answer, I don't even want to know what earths she is from, is she still alive, etc.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I like Javicia Leslie but like TonyD79, I tend to agree that creating a totally new character is adding a layer of complexity that may be a real problem.

Still think they should have done a "Darrin Stephens".


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

I just don't see how they have a choice except to wipe the slate clean and start all over. I didn't really care for this show much. I'm not sure Ill stick around for season 2.

What a wasted first season.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I want to know how she's going to fit all that hair into the cowl.  I'm guessing cornrows.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

The reason I started to watch was Ruby Rose. Who am I kidding? It's a superhero show. I don't care who is under the hood. Being a supermodel is a plus.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

KungFuCow said:


> I just don't see how they have a choice except to wipe the slate clean and start all over. I didn't really care for this show much. I'm not sure Ill stick around for season 2.
> 
> What a wasted first season.


I wouldn't have cared at all if they just replaced the actress and pretended it was her all along.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

zordude said:


> I wouldn't have cared at all if they just replaced the actress and pretended it was her all along.


That would have been a better option. At least then you havent lost a whole season of storytelling groundwork and character development.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Someone else mentioned Violet Beane. I have no idea if Jessie Quick perished in the Crisis, but who cares, it's a super hero show. I think it'd be funny to bring her back as Jessie Quick on Batwoman just so they can have an entire episode of inside jokes from God Friended Me.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

From the character description, Ryan certainly doesn't seem like a rich society type, so it doesn't sound like anyone would suspect her of being Batwoman. (Not that people in TV shows are very good about discovering secret identities based on obvious clues.) OTOH, it was precisely that aspect of Bruce's and Kate's secret identities that let them access certain places and get intel.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> From the character description, Ryan certainly doesn't seem like a rich society type, so it doesn't sound like anyone would suspect her of being Batwoman. (Not that people in TV shows are very good about discovering secret identities based on obvious clues.) OTOH, it was precisely that aspect of Bruce's and Kate's secret identities that let them access certain places and get intel.


On the other other hand, she will no doubt eventually (and probably sooner rather than later) get access to Kate's network...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Love that on Twitter tons of comments and posts are about Halle Berry and Eartha Kitt. Not that anyone actually reads before they comment......


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Sly and the Family Stone said it best: "Different strokes for different folks." To me, Alice is the 2nd worst character in CW superhero show history behind only Mona from Legends.


Okay, just finished Legends of Tomorrow through season 5. A fun show that doesn't take itself too seriously.

Granted, that Hawaiian werewolf CGI is really crappy, and Mona Wu is annoying. I'd still take Mona Wu over Luke Fox, Sophie Moore, Jacob Kane or Mary Hamilton any day. At least, she's part of the book club.

"_Beebo want cuddle!_"


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