# Welcome! Starting up... Loop



## King3pj

I think I may have destroyed my Roamio Basic. I tried to install a 2TB hard drive and I thought everything went smoothly. When I tried to boot it up it went into a loop. It says Welcome! Starting up... And after a few seconds the yellow light starts flashing and it reboots. 

It just keeps doing this over and over again. I have tried to get into the kickstart menu but that doesn't work either. I also tried putting the original drive back in and this has the same problem. 

I'm hoping someone can get me out of this mess. The replacement drive I purchased was the WD Green 2TB drive. Again, even the original drive won't boot. I think I've destroyed my TiVo.


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## jmbach

Hmmm. A few thoughts. Make sure all the cables are firmly seated. Both to the drive and the motherboard and that is connected to the network. The only other thing I can think of is if the power brick is not delivering enough power. Consider replacing that. If nothing works, then it may be bricked. I have seen some info from telemark that suggests some of the built in flash drives may develop bad spots.


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## King3pj

jmbach said:


> Hmmm. A few thoughts. Make sure all the cables are firmly seated. Both to the drive and the motherboard and that is connected to the network. The only other thing I can think of is if the power brick is not delivering enough power. Consider replacing that. If nothing works, then it may be bricked. I have seen some info from telemark that suggests some of the built in flash drives may develop bad spots.


I've checked all the cables multiple times. I've also swapped back and forth between the original drive and my upgraded drive a couple times. I am getting the same behavior no matter what I do.

I think I am just going to have to contact support and see if they can help me. I took one of their promotional offers for the free Tivo where you have to pay $20 per month for two years.

If not for that I would just cut my losses and buy a new Roamio with lifetime subscription like I wish I would have done in the first place. The problem is that even if I do that I'm stuck paying $20 per month for the next year and a half on this one.

I really regret trying to upgrade the hard drive at this point. I have probably built at least a dozen computers and upgraded hard drives on things like my PS3 and PS4. From everything I saw, it looked like a piece of cake and it actually was very easy. Only problem came when I tried to boot back up.


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## jmbach

Might see if telemark has some ideas. He focuses a lot on the hardware and he may be able to help resurrect it.


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## King3pj

jmbach said:


> Might see if telemark has some ideas. He focuses a lot on the hardware and he may be able to help resurrect it.


Thanks but support has already set up a replacement to be shipped out tomorrow. I don't have the tools or knowledge to solder anything so this seems like the safer option.


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## unitron

King3pj said:


> I think I may have destroyed my Roamio Basic. I tried to install a 2TB hard drive and I thought everything went smoothly. When I tried to boot it up it went into a loop. It says Welcome! Starting up... And after a few seconds the yellow light starts flashing and it reboots.
> 
> It just keeps doing this over and over again. I have tried to get into the kickstart menu but that doesn't work either. I also tried putting the original drive back in and this has the same problem.
> 
> I'm hoping someone can get me out of this mess. The replacement drive I purchased was the WD Green 2TB drive. Again, even the original drive won't boot. I think I've destroyed my TiVo.


If that's just a regular WD Green, and not a recently manufactured WD AV Green drive, then you probably need to disable the drive's Intellipark feature with the

wdidle3.exe

utility.

Otherwise, when the TiVo goes to talk to the drive, it's already gone to sleep, TiVo thinks there's a problem, reboots, by the time it tries to talk to the drive again the drive has woken up, noticed the lack of further communication (while the TiVo was rebooting) and gone back to sleep, lather, rinse, repeat.


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## King3pj

unitron said:


> If that's just a regular WD Green, and not a recently manufactured WD AV Green drive, then you probably need to disable the drive's Intellipark feature with the
> 
> wdidle3.exe
> 
> utility.
> 
> Otherwise, when the TiVo goes to talk to the drive, it's already gone to sleep, TiVo thinks there's a problem, reboots, by the time it tries to talk to the drive again the drive has woken up, noticed the lack of further communication (while the TiVo was rebooting) and gone back to sleep, lather, rinse, repeat.


I originally thought that may be the problem too (or a defective drive) but when I put the drive that came installed in the Roamio back in I was having the same problem.


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## jrtroo

Try a different power supply.


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## unitron

King3pj said:


> I originally thought that may be the problem too (or a defective drive) but when I put the drive that came installed in the Roamio back in I was having the same problem.


It's not impossible that there are two different problems going on.

I don't really know anything about S5s, but the fact that it can format a new drive with the TiVo software all by itself makes me wonder if it tried to and, since the Intellipark'ed drive didn't respond, got itself stuck in the middle of the process and is now unable to deal with the original drive.

Disable Intellipark on the green drive and try it in the TiVo again.


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## King3pj

Thanks for the suggestions but they have already agreed to replace it under warranty. My replacement was shipped out Monday and it should arrive Thursday. I really don't want to tinker with the hardware anymore and make it obvious that I had opened the case. That's why suggestions like changing out the power supply are off the table for me. 

If they would have chose not to send me a replacement I would have been willing to try any of these solutions. As it stands now, I think I'm better off leaving everything closed up with the original drive installed though.


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## jrtroo

A Roamio basic power supply is external, and so does not need you to change an internal component. Anyhow, just want to make sure that fact was in the tread. 

Your fresh box should clearly address the issue.


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## b-ball-fanatic

Sorry to resurrect an existing thread, but what the heck.....

I'm incredibly frustrated with my Roamio Pro and just looking for ANY ideas out there. I'll try to be brief:


Had some pixelation in recent months

With the latest update about a week ago, it got stuck in a reboot loop with the restart 
(loop = "Welcome....Power up" for ~20-30sec and reboots)

Attempted many hard and soft reboots....they all failed

Attempted kickstarts 54 & 57...it acknowledged the codes but ignored them and continued with reboot cycle.

Put in a blank 1Tb HDD to see if it would "take." It did. It went through a bunch of reboots, but eventually restarted & acted like a new TiVo.

Because of the previous pixelation and now the reboots, I suspected the OEM HDD had issues, so I SpinRite'd it. Put it back in the Roamio and was able to get to a KS57 green screen and eventually a successful boot.

Since I was in a "hardware mode" already (happened to be upgrading a Premiere HDD), I decided to clone & replace the Roamio's OEM HDD with another WD 3TB Green. The 7hr cloning was successful. 

Put the new drive in the Roamio last night. After a few "Welcome....Powering up" reboots, was able to run a KS57. Everything seemed intact, functional, successful service call, etc.

Thinking I was home free, I disconnected it this morning and moved it back into the home theatre stack (where another fully-functional Premiere XL had been doing fill-in duties.)

It now seems to be utterly stuck back in the reboot cycle. Been trying for two hours without success. Acknowledges KS codes, but doesn't run them. So the same issue I started with, but can't seem to get out of it at all.

In the other reboot loop instances, once I got an "Almost there" screen, I was on my way. Might still reboot and act weird, but that was the sign that it was closer. I could actually run KS57, and it would eventually get up and running. But now I'm getting nothing but "Welcome...powering up" reboots.
I'm _so _frustrated with this thing right now. It seems apparent to me (someone correct me if my reasoning's off) that this _isn't_ an HDD issue after all.* Once up & running, it seems okay, but it seemingly struggles more & more any time it has to restart. Even if I get it running today, it's obviously not acceptable to face hours of downtime whenever the thing needs to restart. Of course, it's about a month out of warranty.....

If anybody has _any _ideas on what could cause this, I'm all ears.

* I ran WD's long test on the OEM HDD last night and it came up error-free.


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## jmbach

If there perchance was a small area of corruption in the original image, the clone will have it as well. Would recommend checking the drive with HDD Guardian to see if there are any errors that WD diagnostic might turn a blind eye to. Let the Roamio put a new image on the drive by wiping the drive first and see if your problems goes away.


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## b-ball-fanatic

jmbach said:


> If there perchance was a small area of corruption in the original image, the clone will have it as well. Would recommend checking the drive with HDD Guardian to see if there are any errors that WD diagnostic might turn a blind eye to. Let the Roamio put a new image on the drive by wiping the drive first and see if your problems goes away.


Thanks for the response. At this point, it's almost as if it won't communicate with any HDD anymore. I've tried all three today....the OEM 3Tb, the cloned 3Tb, and the 1Tb "tester" that it successfully formatted a few days ago....and I get nothing but the same reboot loop. Even though I can feel the HDD spinning, I'm starting to wonder if either the power or SATA path to it are failing. That little combo cable makes it hard to test easily, but I may pull one from a Premiere and swap it, just for sh*ts & giggles.

I will find HDD Guardian and run it, as you suggest. Will also blank the tester and try that again....


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## jmbach

I have seen a bad SATA cable in the past. Replacing the cable and see what happens would be a good idea.


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## b-ball-fanatic

jmbach said:


> I have seen a bad SATA cable in the past. Replacing the cable and see what happens would be a good idea.


Shoot....I thought the Premiere used that same SATA + power combo cable that the Roamio does. But I just opened one up and it's same as the Series 3....a combo connector, but the power is "hardwired" to the power supply board rather than pinned out to the M/B.

Considering that the Roamio powers its HDD from a M/B connector, and that other end is also the SATA connector, do you know of a way to separately test the SATA cable? Obviously, attaching a different SATA cable is easy, but not so sure how to power the HDD (without making a whole new power connector cable....)


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## Arcady

I temporarily powered a drive connected to a TiVo with a regular SATA cable by just running power from a PC.


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## b-ball-fanatic

Arcady said:


> I temporarily powered a drive connected to a TiVo with a regular SATA cable by just running power from a PC.


Yeah, I thought of that....makes sense that it should work for the previous models where the HDD was powered directly from the power supply.

Unfortunately, it's a no-go with the Roamio. The flash OS must check for a load on that M/B power connector, because even in its currently dysfunctional state, the Roamio immediate detects that it's not powering the drive and starts flashing all the front indicator lights. It doesn't even proceed to the "Welcome...." stage.

I did, however, manage to make a separate power connector so that I could try an alternate SATA cable. Alas, no change in behavior. Unless there's something I can test that I haven't thought to yet, I'm stumped. I think my Roamio's got bigger problems.

I've never had to send a TiVo in for service before. Any idea how something like a failed M/B, etc. impacts Lifetime Service on the unit?


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## telemark

Wow, that's unfortunate. There's a lot of variables going on now though.

Were there any errors reported during the cloning or from spinrite?
How about SMART values or WD tools like jmbach suggested?
If so, then the drive was unreadable at some point in time, and the data could be corrupt. Depending where it is, it could be unimportant or important.

Do the reboots always occur after Kickstart code entry window and before the 2nd splash screen? If so I think you should check the log files. There's a good chance there's a message.

I use a PC and Linux CD for this.
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=517410

An eSata enclosure lets you move the drive back and forth without that power supply issue.


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## b-ball-fanatic

telemark said:


> Wow, that's unfortunate. There's a lot of variables going on now though.


Not as many as it seems...I've tried to be methodical about diagnosing a single factor at a time. I think I've isolated the HDD and cables individually, which turns my suspicions toward a M/B physical issue (connector, etc.) or perhaps a corruption of the flash OS.



> Were there any errors reported during the cloning or from spinrite?
> How about SMART values or WD tools like jmbach suggested?
> If so, then the drive was unreadable at some point in time, and the data could be corrupt. Depending where it is, it could be unimportant or important.


No errors with any of the tests. This is one of the reasons I'm no longer thinking this was ever an HDD issue. (Since it seems most TiVo problems are, it seemed a reasonable suspicion.) The OEM HDD passed all SMART tests, the short and extended WD tests, and SpinRite found no errors.

(I also ran extended tests on the replacement 3Tb and the tester 1Tb before using them, as I always do to ensure that I'm starting with a good drive.)



> Do the reboots always occur after Kickstart code entry window and before the 2nd splash screen? If so I think you should check the log files. There's a good chance there's a message.


Yes, always. Looks like a normal boot sequence through the first splash screen ("Welcome..."), the flashing-yellow kickstart window, where I can reliably get a response to KS codes, and then about 15sec more of the Welcome screen before reboot & repeat. While acknowledging KS codes appropriately, they appear to have no effect, other than maybe slowing the reboot cycle just a bit.



> I use a PC and Linux CD for this.
> http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=517410


Never tried that. Looks complicated, but I'd be willing to give it a go if revealed anything that could help me resolve this.



> An eSata enclosure lets you move the drive back and forth without that power supply issue.


I didn't realize this was possible. Do you mean using an eSata drive (in this case, the OEM HDD) exclusively, rather than as an extender? Leaving the M/B SATA & power connectors empty?


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## telemark

b-ball-fanatic said:


> I didn't realize this was possible. Do you mean using an eSata drive (in this case, the OEM HDD) exclusively, rather than as an extender? Leaving the M/B SATA & power connectors empty?


Not quite as possible in how everyone would want. I'll sometimes use a Sata drive, in an external case, which makes an eSata drive. Then an eSata to Sata cable to the M/B Sata on the Tivo. Or eSata to eSata cable to a PC.

Most people don't need this, but those of us debugging, it streamlines the reconnections some.


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## jmbach

b-ball-fanatic said:


> Yeah,
> Unfortunately, it's a no-go with the Roamio. The flash OS must check for a load on that M/B power connector, because even in its currently dysfunctional state, the Roamio immediate detects that it's not powering the drive and starts flashing all the front indicator lights. It doesn't even proceed to the "Welcome...." stage.


I experienced the same response when I tried to see if the unit will boot from an external drive only. I thought it was because the SATA connector was not connected but your testing seems to indicate it is looking for a load on the power connector.



b-ball-fanatic said:


> I've never had to send a TiVo in for service before. Any idea how something like a failed M/B, etc. impacts Lifetime Service on the unit?


If you let them fix it, they will charge you a fee for out of warranty service but the lifetime normally gets transferred. Doesn't hurt to call them and ask.


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## b-ball-fanatic

telemark said:


> Not quite as possible in how everyone would want. I'll sometimes use a Sata drive, in an external case, which makes an eSata drive. Then an eSata to Sata cable to the M/B Sata on the Tivo. Or eSata to eSata cable to a PC.
> 
> Most people don't need this, but those of us debugging, it streamlines the reconnections some.





jmbach said:


> I experienced the same response when I tried to see if the unit will boot from an external drive only. I thought it was because the SATA connector was not connected but your testing seems to indicate it is looking for a load on the power connector.


Yeah, that's what appears to be going on....it fails to detect an HDD power load (on the M/B connector) and immediately aborts the boot. I'm afraid this would be the case, as well, with an externally-powered eSATA drive.

Kinda interesting that they chose to fault on the power load rather than on the SATA connection. Worried, perhaps, about what kind of external drive array hacks the creative types might explore...



> If you let them fix it, they will charge you a fee for out of warranty service but the lifetime normally gets transferred. Doesn't hurt to call them and ask.


Yeah, I assume there'll be a repair cost involved. I was more worried they might try something like "Lifetime Service is for the life of that unit...and that unit is dead. So sorry." (Then offer me $100 off on a shiny new one! )

My one last effort is to prepare a blank HDD again and see if the Roamio will recognize it and do its new-install routine. If not (and I'm not very hopeful), I have to assume this is a more serious failure that requires service.


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## telemark

jmbach said:


> I experienced the same response when I tried to see if the unit will boot from an external drive only. I thought it was because the SATA connector was not connected but your testing seems to indicate it is looking for a load on the power connector.


Oh, this is news to me, as a lowly Roamio Basic owner, which gets much further without a drive.

But jmbach's explanation that a SATA connection (device) is required sounds more plausable than a load required. 
Could someone with a healthy Roamio Pro/+ confirm b-ball-fanatic's results?

Edit: actually there is a good reason to check the load on a Hard Drive before booting, which is staggered or staged power demand, but since the base Roamio doesn't do this yet could use it, I had low expectation any Tivo would.


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## b-ball-fanatic

Wow....so _that _was enlightening.

I just called TiVo. The CSR wanted me to go through a single troubleshooting step, a cold boot (with nothing attached but HDMI and power cables). When that failed to successfully boot the machine, he informed me that it "appears to need service. We don't service TiVos." He suggested I try Weaknees or another DVR repair service. (But emphasized that they have no official association with any of them, so cannot make recommendations.)

So...TiVo doesn't service Tivos. I'm kind of stunned, in that he basically said "It's out of warranty, you're on your own." Said it politely, but that was the gist. He _thought _the Lifetime Service would stay with the machine through a Weaknees repair, but wasn't entirely sure.

--------------------------------------------------
Any reason not to proceed with Weaknees? Through 14 years and eight TiVos, I've never had an issue requiring repair, so I've never paid attention to who's good, who's not, etc. Since there's apparently no such thing as "authorized" TiVo repair services, I guess I just have to go on reputation and word-of-mouth.


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## telemark

Tivo CSR is that polite adjective one level beyond useless. Too many examples of wrong information we know about because users come here when they got sent down the wrong path.

You seem pretty technical, so you might use a TTL cable to get the error messages, which is really low cost. But if it's getting to Kickstart, you can get away with the log files instead.

If it's the flash got corrupted but is still good, I could probably rewrite that if you want to ship it my way.


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## telemark

A Roamio boot goes something like:

Initialization
BSP verifier checks Bootloader
Bootloader (U-Boot), selects device loads/checks/boots Kernel
Kernel checks Root FS
Mounts '/' and runs startup scripts in rc.d, which has stages called:


StageA_PreKickstart 
StageB_PostKickstart 
StageC_MediaInitialization 
StageD_PreMfs 
StageE_PreApplication 
StageF_ApplicationLaunch
StageG_PostApplication

Kickstart code entry is the end of Stage A.
/var/logs starts running at the beginning of StageB.
Blank drive formatting occurs in the middle of Stage A.

The "Welcome" screen is from the bootloader.
The "Almost there" screen is from StageC

HDD tests are Stage E.


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## b-ball-fanatic

telemark, jmbach....any technical sorts who might be around tonight:

Piddling around with more combinations of HDDs, power sources, and SATA cables today, I was making no progress at all when I left it in its happy reboot loop to go eat some dinner.
An hour later, I come back to this. I didn't even realize I'd left it on....










I'm beyond perplexed, as I've seen literally nothing but the 45sec reboot loop for almost two days. Anyway, it's a very temporary moment of opportunity, since it's running off a 1Tb temp HDD attached via separate SATA and my jerry-rigged power connector:










Can you think of _anything _I can do, while it's actually up & running, that might help at least diagnose this bizarre issue? I have little confidence that I can get it restarted if I power it down.


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## telemark

You can hit the "INFO" button which will display the OS version that booted. Then let us know.

Otherwise, at that point the only thing you can do is finish Guided Setup, which is a reasonable thing to do.


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## b-ball-fanatic

20.4.6a.RC1-USA-6-840-INIT

Also, I do seem to be able to do soft reboots.

----------------
Edit: Oh sorry, I should have clarified....I did finish guided setup (just used 00000 and Tiny TiVo)

I don't have a good understanding of what parts of the Roamio OS permanently reside in flash, and which are installed to the HDD upon initial setup. Or whether software updates actually re-flash (which seems awfully risky....). Anyway, I'm wondering if one of the kickstarts that forces a software re-install could help? If it just goes to the HDD, it wouldn't. But if there's any way to ensure the flash kernel is kosher....


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## telemark

A software upgrade sits on the HDD and eventually ends up on the flash.

The linux kernel and root filesystem are on flash.
The data files are on the HDD.
I'm not sure where the bootloader is stored.

A software upgrade could fix a bad OS flash, but I've never been convinced there's a code that forces this. The WK kickstart list / webpage is not 100% correct on some things. I could try double checking that though.


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## b-ball-fanatic

Certainly happy to try any of them at this point. Since it's just a temp HDD, there are no concerns about what may get lost on the drive. 

So even experimental "let's see what this one does" steps are fair game.


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## b-ball-fanatic

I saw THIS LIST recently......perhaps one of 51, 51, or 56?


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## unitron

Is this model powered by a wall wart type supply rather than a regular AC cord?

If so, maybe the wall wart can supply almost enough current for the new drive, but not quite.


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## b-ball-fanatic

unitron said:


> Is this model powered by a wall wart type supply rather than a regular AC cord?
> 
> If so, maybe the wall wart can supply almost enough current for the new drive, but not quite.


No, it's a Roamio Pro with an internal power supply. Considering that perhaps the onboard power was inadequate, I did test that by powering the HDD from a separate source. It didn't seem to make a difference. The current makeshift setup is using the onboard M/B connector (and I think that Seagate drive actually draws more power than the stock WD 3Tb Green).


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## telemark

Regardless of model, at this point, if you have a voltmeter, you should check the power supply output in every way you know how to do safely.

I've learned a Power Supply has more than 120V the hard way.


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## unitron

b-ball-fanatic said:


> Wow....so _that _was enlightening.
> 
> I just called TiVo. The CSR wanted me to go through a single troubleshooting step, a cold boot (with nothing attached but HDMI and power cables). When that failed to successfully boot the machine, he informed me that it "appears to need service. We don't service TiVos." He suggested I try Weaknees or another DVR repair service. (But emphasized that they have no official association with any of them, so cannot make recommendations.)
> 
> So...TiVo doesn't service Tivos. I'm kind of stunned, in that he basically said "It's out of warranty, you're on your own." Said it politely, but that was the gist. He _thought _the Lifetime Service would stay with the machine through a Weaknees repair, but wasn't entirely sure.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> Any reason not to proceed with Weaknees? Through 14 years and eight TiVos, I've never had an issue requiring repair, so I've never paid attention to who's good, who's not, etc. Since there's apparently no such thing as "authorized" TiVo repair services, I guess I just have to go on reputation and word-of-mouth.


Product Lifetime Service is tied to the unit's TiVo Service Number.

Up through the original Series 3, this number was on a crypto chip on the motherboard that could be moved to another of the same model motherboard by someone with the right equipment and experience at desoldering and soldering Surface Mount Devices, but starting with the later Series 3 models, the HD and HD XL, the crypto chip was incorporated into the main chip/CPU, which mounts by the Ball Grid Array method, with pretty much shuts out us peons from being able to salvage it.


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## b-ball-fanatic

telemark said:


> Regardless of model, at this point, if you have a voltmeter, you should check the power supply output in every way you know how to do safely.
> 
> I've learned a Power Supply has more than 120V the hard way.


Haha....I'll bet! 

I don't know the pin-outs of any of the connectors, so I don't know any of the expected values.

By the way, you were right earlier. Even though an empty M/B HDD power connector caused the machine to abort boot yesterday, as I described, I was able to do it today. (That is, power the HDD from an external source and leave the onboard connector completely empty.)

I have no idea why it didn't work yesterday and did today. (That's not how the currently-running configuration is powered.)



unitron said:


> .....starting with the later Series 3 models, the HD and HD XL, the crypto chip was incorporated into the main chip/CPU, which mounts by the Ball Grid Array method, with pretty much shuts out us peons from being able to salvage it.


Okay, good to know. The TiVo CSR didn't know that...said he didn't know how the TSN was tied to a specific machine, other than "on a chip somewhere."


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## unitron

b-ball-fanatic said:


> No, it's a Roamio Pro with an internal power supply. Considering that perhaps the onboard power was inadequate, I did test that by powering the HDD from a separate source. It didn't seem to make a difference. The current makeshift setup is using the onboard M/B connector (and I think that Seagate drive actually draws more power than the stock WD 3Tb Green).


Then all I can think of is be sure Intellipark is disabled on any WD Green drives, check the power supply DC Voltages with a meter (black is ground, yellow is +12V, red is +5V, Orange is +3.3V, any other color who knows?) and with an oscilloscope to make sure no AC ripple is leaking in.


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## telemark

> I don't know the pin-outs of any of the connectors, so I don't know any of the expected values.


unitron knows P/S among other things, so I'll bow down and concentrate on researching KS codes.



> Okay, good to know. The TiVo CSR didn't know that...said he didn't know how the TSN was tied to a specific machine, other than "on a chip somewhere."


I'm kinda hard on them, but it bothers me when people of authority spew wrong information, cause it causes damage. Just say I don't know, which would be harmless.


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## b-ball-fanatic

Hey guys, I really _really _appreciate your time and attention....you've gone above and beyond. 

Other duties are calling me away until later tonight, so don't press on the KS research right now on my account. No rush. But here's a status report....

1. With the temp HDD installed, and confident that soft reboots were okay, I restarted and ran KS52 ("emergency software reinstall"). Other than taking longer to boot, I couldn't see that it did/didn't do anything.

2. Feeling emboldened (and honestly, just kinda curious and "what-the-heckish" about it all), I restarted again and ran KS64 ("perform forensic"). Aside from doing a long boot, with several "Almost there" screens, including this one I hadn't seen before, with the little settings thingy....








....it eventually booted up. I'm guessing it must have run a bunch of tests and written a log file...?

3. Finally, feeling especially brave, I powered it completely down and put the OEM HDD back in. It booted up, and even asked for the cable card! What the heck....first time it's booted cleanly after a drive swap in a week! It's still using my separate SATA/power cables, but I'm leaving it this way for the night. I'm going to have kmttg transfer the rest of the non-copy-protected shows before trying anything else too brave and/or foolish.


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## telemark

I finished auditing the 3 potential codes.
52 is the only possible one, which is also the one you said you tried.

I'm not sure what else it needs to trigger, but I guess it needs something more.
Was the network plugged in?


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## b-ball-fanatic

telemark said:


> I finished auditing the 3 potential codes.
> 52 is the only possible one, which is also the one you said you tried.
> 
> I'm not sure what else it needs to trigger, but I guess it needs something more.
> Was the network plugged in?


Yes, the network was plugged in when I ran kickstart....is that what you mean? Also, not sure what you mean by "trigger?"

----
Edit: Okay, I think I get what you mean....that KS52 didn't actually run because I didn't see any special screen noting that it was updating/installing? Yeah, I'm doubtful that that one "did" anything, except that it did take noticeably longer than a regular soft reboot.

Any idea what KS 64 actually does? That one was definitely performing some sort of operation, cycling through "stages," it seemed, as it'd alternate splashing the "Almost there" and a blank screen for varying lengths of time.

I backed up the remainder of my content overnight, so I'm enormously relieved to have that out of the way. Also very pleased that the machine seems to be running normally (for over 15 hrs now) at the moment. It's still disconcerting, however, that I've really no clue what was so wrong that became progressively more difficult to cold boot over the past week...to the point that it wouldn't get out of the "Welcome" screen for two days.

I'm not sure whether to see this as a temporary respite and assume that I'm still looking at a repair issue, or to just cross my fingers and hope for the best if I'm able to successfully move it to its normal location today....

One other question: Do you know what causes the Roamio to lose its CC pairing? I read that that was expected with the cloned drive, but it's now running the OEM HDD and needs to be re-paired for all the premium channels.


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## b-ball-fanatic

I believe all my previous suspicions (HDD, cables....) were misguided. I think the reboot loop is caused by "something" not being retained when the power is physically disconnected.

By pure folly, I discovered this pattern to the Roamio's reboot loop behavior:

can do a soft reboot anytime
can usually do a hard reboot if the power disconnect is very brief
goes into the "Welcome" reboot loop if the power cable is detached longer, but eventually starts up after 60-90min of continuous looping

When I realized this, I suspected the CR2302 3V battery on the M/B....looks like a PC's CMOS battery, but I don't actually know what it does in a TiVo. So I replaced it. The original battery tests okay at 3.14V, so I may be on the wrong track there. Physically removing the battery did cause the reboot loop to run much longer (nearly 3hrs) before finally starting up.

So clearly, some info that should be retained is not retained when the Roamio's unplugged. I can't imagine it's the flash OS, cause that seems too vulnerable and catastrophic, but that's kind of what the behavior looks like. And that it takes a while with continuous AC power to "rebuild" or whatever it's doing. If the flash loses its data, I don't understand how it could self-repair.

So the good news? It seems that if I wait long enough, the Roamio _will _actually start again after a hard shutdown.

Bad news? Clearly, something is wrong for this to be happening. Not only is this current state of affairs a PITA any time the power goes out, etc., but I don't know whether it's something that can/will get worse.

If any of you technical guys have any theories, or thoughts on whether I should still try to get it repaired, I welcome your opinions.


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## L David Matheny

b-ball-fanatic said:


> I believe all my previous suspicions (HDD, cables....) were misguided. I think the reboot loop is caused by "something" not being retained when the power is physically disconnected.
> 
> By pure folly, I discovered this pattern to the Roamio's reboot loop behavior:
> 
> can do a soft reboot anytime
> can usually do a hard reboot if the power disconnect is very brief
> goes into the "Welcome" reboot loop if the power cable is detached longer, but eventually starts up after 60-90min of continuous looping
> 
> When I realized this, I suspected the CR2302 3V battery on the M/B....looks like a PC's CMOS battery, but I don't actually know what it does in a TiVo. So I replaced it. The original battery tests okay at 3.14V, so I may be on the wrong track there. Physically removing the battery did cause the reboot loop to run much longer (nearly 3hrs) before finally starting up.
> 
> So clearly, some info that should be retained is not retained when the Roamio's unplugged. I can't imagine it's the flash OS, cause that seems too vulnerable and catastrophic, but that's kind of what the behavior looks like. And that it takes a while with continuous AC power to "rebuild" or whatever it's doing. If the flash loses its data, I don't understand how it could self-repair.
> 
> So the good news? It seems that if I wait long enough, the Roamio _will _actually start again after a hard shutdown.
> 
> Bad news? Clearly, something is wrong for this to be happening. Not only is this current state of affairs a PITA any time the power goes out, etc., but I don't know whether it's something that can/will get worse.
> 
> If any of you technical guys have any theories, or thoughts on whether I should still try to get it repaired, I welcome your opinions.


I haven't gone back to research this, but are you completely sure that IntelliPark is disabled on your hard drive (assuming it's a WD)? If not, search TCF for "IntelliPark" and/or "WDidle3". As I recall, the issue affects cold boots. Or was it warm boots? Do some reading.


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## telemark

It's true the HDD already spinning vs spinning up is one thing that creates a difference between warm reboots and cold reboots.

You can eliminate this as a variable by powering the Hard Drive from an independent power source, and then cold booting the Roamio.


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## telemark

I feel I should say something more but the truth is idk at this point because I don't have a Pro/+. I did all my booting tests on a Basic, and from your descriptions there are slight differences exactly what I can't say for sure until I test one in person.

I think one thing you'll have to decide, is it better to "fix" now or is it better to wait to see if it gets better or worse. And if it gets worse, will it be harder to fix later.

I'm guessing, if you eliminate some basic things like power, hard drive, drive spin up, then there's a decent chance there's a bad flash. Waiting out until the next software upgrade deployment, would rewrite it. This is especially more likely if the symptoms got worse or started at the point of the last software update.

If you want to rewrite the flash now, you can send the box my way, but might be premature. Also you could look for an error message, which is either on the serial console or hard drive log files, depending at what point it's rebooting.


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## b-ball-fanatic

L David Matheny said:


> I haven't gone back to research this, but are you completely sure that IntelliPark is disabled on your hard drive (assuming it's a WD)? If not, search TCF for "IntelliPark" and/or "WDidle3". As I recall, the issue affects cold boots. Or was it warm boots? Do some reading.





telemark said:


> It's true the HDD already spinning vs spinning up is one thing that creates a difference between warm reboots and cold reboots.
> 
> You can eliminate this as a variable by powering the Hard Drive from an independent power source, and then cold booting the Roamio.


From the reading I did about drives for my Premiere upgrades, I thought that the IntelliPark issue didn't affect newer drives. The OEM HDD and the clone I tried are both WD Greens that are fairly new. I haven't altered the OEM drive so I'd assume it was properly configured. In my "bench work" this past week, I also tried to have the Roamio boot and install on a couple older drives, one of which was a WD, so maybe it had that problem. But regardless, the reboot loop occurred the same way with all of them.

I inadvertently eliminated this variable when I was testing SATA and power cables to the drive. There were several attempts where I had the HDD powered by a PC sitting next to the TiVo, so it was already spinning when I powered up the TiVo. This didn't change the reboot behavior.

It seems obvious to me now, knowing that cutting the AC essentially "resets" the Roamio back to square one of its reboot state, that all of my diagnostic maneuvers were continually re-triggering the problem, since most required unplugging the power cable.


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## b-ball-fanatic

telemark said:


> I feel I should say something more but the truth is idk at this point because I don't have a Pro/+. I did all my booting tests on a Basic, and from your descriptions there are slight differences exactly what I can't say for sure until I test one in person.


I can appreciate that.



> I think one thing you'll have to decide, is it better to "fix" now or is it better to wait to see if it gets better or worse. And if it gets worse, will it be harder to fix later.
> 
> I'm guessing, if you eliminate some basic things like power, hard drive, drive spin up, then there's a decent chance there's a bad flash. Waiting out until the next software upgrade deployment, would rewrite it. This is especially more likely if the symptoms got worse or started at the point of the last software update.
> 
> If you want to rewrite the flash now, you can send the box my way, but might be premature. Also you could look for an error message, which is either on the serial console or hard drive log files, depending at what point it's rebooting.


Can I keep that offer in my back pocket until the next upgrade deployment? Since it's working right now, and I even called and got the cable card re-paired today, I'm kind of content to wait it out. It's never once spontaneously rebooted from a normal, working state. If it were to start doing that, or if the next software upgrade wreaks havoc, this seems like the next thing to try. I live in the Seattle area....just for an idea of the shipping time frame if your were to take a look at it, what part of the country are you in?

If I hadn't mentioned it earlier, I think it's notable that this whole problem started not immediately after the the last ("OnePass") update, but within a day or two of my foolishly deciding to try out the new power savings feature. It was in waking from its sleep state that I first encountered the Welcome reboot loop.


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## jmbach

Perhaps it is that feature that is the problem. 

However, I do know from working on the NANDs on Android tablets that they do get bad blocks and the only way of reliability marking the bad blocks was reformatting the NAND and reload the OS. Also, just like hard drives, once they start getting bad spots, it is like a domino effect. 

I vote for telemark to look at it or calling TiVo again and get another CSR and ask them to repair it. 

Last suggestion, get a large enough UPS for the Tivo to keep it alive for an hour if the electricity goes out.


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## unitron

b-ball-fanatic said:


> From the reading I did about drives for my Premiere upgrades, I thought that the IntelliPark issue didn't affect newer drives. The OEM HDD and the clone I tried are both WD Greens that are fairly new. I haven't altered the OEM drive so I'd assume it was properly configured. In my "bench work" this past week, I also tried to have the Roamio boot and install on a couple older drives, one of which was a WD, so maybe it had that problem. But regardless, the reboot loop occurred the same way with all of them.
> 
> I inadvertently eliminated this variable when I was testing SATA and power cables to the drive. There were several attempts where I had the HDD powered by a PC sitting next to the TiVo, so it was already spinning when I powered up the TiVo. This didn't change the reboot behavior.
> 
> It seems obvious to me now, knowing that cutting the AC essentially "resets" the Roamio back to square one of its reboot state, that all of my diagnostic maneuvers were continually re-triggering the problem, since most required unplugging the power cable.


The WD Green A/V drives seem no longer to come from the factory with Intellipark enabled, but the regular WD Green drives apparently still do.

Intellipark, is, after all, supposed to be part of what makes them "Green".


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## b-ball-fanatic

jmbach said:


> Perhaps it is that feature that is the problem.
> 
> However, I do know from working on the NANDs on Android tablets that they do get bad blocks and the only way of reliability marking the bad blocks was reformatting the NAND and reload the OS. Also, just like hard drives, once they start getting bad spots, it is like a domino effect.
> 
> I vote for telemark to look at it or calling TiVo again and get another CSR and ask them to repair it.
> 
> Last suggestion, get a large enough UPS for the Tivo to keep it alive for an hour if the electricity goes out.


Hmmm....that's disconcerting. Is the NAND replaceable? Or is its demise the demise of the TiVo?

When I called TiVo, I didn't get the impression that I got a bad/stupid CSR. He made it very clear that TiVo simply doesn't have a hardware repair service. At all. I asked how they deal with warranty repairs, and he said that they don't....they replace the box with a refurbished unit. (Says a lot about the cost-of-manufacture of these things....their margins must be exorbitant.)

I remain somewhat stunned that TiVo so openly disowns the $1000 product and the customer once the warranty expires. He made it clear that they don't recommend any particular repair service, as there _are _no "authorized" services, nor can they guarantee that the Lifetime Service will continue after 3rd party repair. It _might_...it _should_...but not their fault if it doesn't. And this was not a contentious conversation at all, on either side. He just very politely, and somewhat sympathetically, conveyed current company policy.



unitron said:


> The WD Green A/V drives seem no longer to come from the factory with Intellipark enabled, but the regular WD Green drives apparently still do.
> 
> Intellipark, is, after all, supposed to be part of what makes them "Green".


The OEM drive is a Green AV-GP (EURS) and the one I cloned to is a Green AV (EURX). So I'd think they're properly configured.


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## jmbach

NANDs are replaceable only with a soldering iron. So its demise is that of a Roamio. My question to the CSR is could they do that for your unit as well with a small fee of course. If not then take telemark up on his offer.


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## unitron

b-ball-fanatic said:


> ...
> 
> The OEM drive is a Green AV-GP (EURS) and the one I cloned to is a Green AV (EURX). So I'd think they're properly configured.


But you didn't specify model numbers in the post to which I replied, you just said WD Greens.


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## b-ball-fanatic

unitron said:


> But you didn't specify model numbers in the post to which I replied, you just said WD Greens.


You're right....sorry about that.  Around here, I errantly assume "Green" refers to the AV models TiVo uses, and I forget that there are those other Green models out there.


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## mrdave

after reading your problem, i have a thought. my readynas has a problem and they said something about kernel panic. i looked this up and......wow.
this explains all issues with all electronics. and it sure makes sense of this problem as well.
think about the flash part as you research the kernel panic.

sure makes me mad to think of all the electronic problems were caused by this.

shame on tivo as well.


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## unitron

telemark said:


> It's true the HDD already spinning vs spinning up is one thing that creates a difference between warm reboots and cold reboots.
> 
> You can eliminate this as a variable by powering the Hard Drive from an independent power source, and then cold booting the Roamio.


I wish I'd seen this and responded to it when it was posted.

It takes more current to spin up a hard drive then it does to keep it spinning, and if a TiVo's power supply is starting to limp, then external power for the drive may enable a successful boot where trying to power the motherboard and the drive just off of the Tivo's power supply doesn't.

But Intellipark is a different problem.

When a TiVo boots, it does some other stuff and then it finally gets around to calling on the hard drive.

With Intellipark enabled and the timing period for it set rather short, say 6 to 8 seconds, by the time the TiVo calls on the drive it has "timed out" due to not having been called upon, and gone into sleep mode, from which, apparently, it does not instantly wake, so the TiVo calls upon it, does not get the immediate response it expects, and reboots itself.

By the time the drive "wakes up" and responds, the TiVo is no longer listening for a response, and after the short time period the drive, having received no further communication, goes back to sleep, and is still asleep when the rebooted TiVo calls upon it, and doesn't respond quickly enough, and the TiVo figures something's wrong and reboots, so the drive gets no further communication from it and goes back to sleep, lather, rinse, repeat.

Which is why Intellipark screws up warm boots.

An external power supply for a drive with Intellipark enabled with a short time period ensures that Intellipark is working (without power none of the drives features work), so an external supply won't bypass the Intellipark problem.

The only thing to do is hook the drive straight to a PC motherboard's SATA port or, through a SATA/IDE adapter, straight to a PC motherboard's IDE header, and run

wdidle3.exe

and either disable Intellipark or set the time before going into sleep mode after not being communicated with to a high number, like 300 seconds (5 minutes) so that it never reaches the end of that timer count before being called upon.


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## telemark

For any Intellipark incompatibilities, is it correct to say you can hear the drive spin down, before the Tivo reboots?


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## lessd

telemark said:


> For any Intellipark incompatibilities, is it correct to say you can hear the drive spin down, before the Tivo reboots?


I think they just park the heads, it would take too long to spin up the drive. Some power is saved if the heads are in the park position. For a computer the first HD call would take a little longer to get the heads moving but that would no problem for any computer and most people would not notice the one time small time lag, some TiVos did.


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