# How much money do you save with Tivo?



## Hilltopper06 (Nov 16, 2010)

It's now been a year since I dropped cable and went OTA with Tivo and I love the savings! But, the new Tivo Premiere Elite has piqued my interest. Unfortunately it is only available to digital cable subscribers. 

If I buy an Elite with a Lifetime subscription and subscribe to Time Warner Digital Cable how much can I save by not using their box? 

I remember with DirecTV they used to charge me for HD service: $10/mos, DVR service $5/mos, and I paid to lease each DVR $5 each. 

If I own my own box (Tivo Elite) would I not have to pay Time Warner's set top box charge and DVR & HD service? 

I believe I'd have to pay $3/mos for a cable card. Would I need a tuning adapter and what is the monthly charge on that?


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

These questions should be answered by your cable co. The need for a tuning adapter and the cost of cable cards, etc varies by region.


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

Hilltopper06 said:


> How much money do you save with Tivo?


It's not even a matter of saving money for me. I can't stand my cable co's DVR's. I'd certainly give them another shot if things change in the future.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Hilltopper06 said:


> If I own my own box (Tivo Elite) would I not have to pay Time Warner's set top box charge and DVR & HD service?


Correct. The TiVo with the CableCARD IS the set top box.



> I believe I'd have to pay $3/mos for a cable card. Would I need a tuning adapter and what is the monthly charge on that?


The first card on your account should be free. Whether you need a TA depends on your cable system. They should be no charge. Also, note that the cable company has to provide you a "bring your own box" credit to offset the cost of the set top box they are not providing you in the package.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I've yet to see a report of anyone saving money on a Timer Warner digital cable subscription by not using a STB or their DVR. I and others here have applied for the new "bring your own box" credit but the typical answer is "the bundle you're on doesn't normally include a STB" so you aren't eligible.

The FCC sits in Washington pretending to help us but rarely actually does.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Your first CableCARD should be free ??? Not on my Time Warner!


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Having a Tivo doesn't necessarily save you money. Consider that you have to buy the hardware and some sort of service plan from Tivo and then rent a cablecard to use it. Cablecard costs range from being free to $10/month or more, depending on your provider. Deduct the cost of the cablecard from the monthly cost of renting a HD set top box or DVR. Now take the difference and divide it into the amount you paid for the Tivo and whatever service plan you're using to see how long it will take you just to break even. If you're on a monthly service plan with Tivo you're probably losing money.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

To do the math, you have to know what it would cost to rent your cable company's DVR and what it would cost you to rent a cable card.

To hazard a guess, I'd say it would take you about 5 years to break even.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

steve614 said:


> To hazard a guess, I'd say it would take you about 5 years to break even.


This ignores the salvage value of a Tivo with product lifetime service (PLS).

You can sell a used series 3 or series 4 TiVo with PLS for $300-350. Use that salvage value to back out the break even point.

As an example, if the cable DVR costs $17 per month and the cable card costs $2 per month, then you save $15 per month. Assume a $300 salvage value on an HD TiVo and that would move your break even point up by 20 months.

You can sell a used TiVo, you can't (legally) sell the cable company DVR that you rent every month.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Again this varies from cableco to cableco, but here with RCN New England the HD Cable box (not the DVR, just the plain old HD cable box) costs $9/mo and the cablecard is $1.50. Since RCN's policy is "if you get it in SD you get it in HD as well" then that's $7.50/mo that I'm saving without having a DVR. Yes, you have to cover the cost of the Tivo and PLS but that's what I like to call a "Service improvement".


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

CableCards and TA's should be sold by CableCo's for a one-time reasonable price. Heck even selling CableCards at $10 a piece still works out much better than the current system of monthly charges that add up big time over months.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Series3Sub said:


> CableCards and TA's should be sold by CableCo's for a one-time reasonable price. Heck even selling CableCards at $10 a piece still works out much better than the current system of monthly charges that add up big time over months.


Don't the cable cards cost several hundred dollars? Or is the cost much lower now for them?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

On Comcast the payback for a Tivo w/MSD lifetime is less than 3 years, so it's well worth it. And that's not even counting the resale value.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> Don't the cable cards cost several hundred dollars? Or is the cost much lower now for them?


Verizon's data sheet says it is $100 if you lose the CableCARD so I can't imagine it costing much more than that. Also I remember someone posting that their cable company sold them for $100 or $150.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> Verizon's data sheet says it is $100 if you lose the CableCARD so I can't imagine it costing much more than that. Also I remember someone posting that their cable company sold them for $100 or $150.


That's probably the list price for the card. You can bet Verizon only pays a fraction of that by purchasing bulk quantities.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

TiVo sure hasn't saved me any money, it is an expense but I consider the cost money well spent. It is always less expensive to do without a DVR and usually less expensive to use a different DVR than TiVo but after 11 years, I can't live without a DVR whether I have cable, satellite or now OTA. I have used DirecTV and Comcast non-TiVo DVRs and like them well enough but I just like TiVo better and now living with OTA/Google TV, I am getting along great without any pay TV service.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

I don't ever think I've thought of my Tivo addiction as something that "saves me money" I've thought of it as "how much more bang for my buck" I get, I get to offload programs, manage and schedule online, transfer between Tivos, have an awesome GUI, upgrade and replace hard drives as "I" see fit.

Saves me money? no, gives me a 1000% better DVR experience, heck yes!


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> The first card on your account should be free.


Negative. He says he is with Time Warner. They charge $2 for each and every CableCard.



jfh3 said:


> Whether you need a TA depends on your cable system.


He will.



jfh3 said:


> They should be no charge.


While not generally true, at this time TWC indeed does not charge for a TA.



jfh3 said:


> Also, note that the cable company has to provide you a "bring your own box" credit to offset the cost of the set top box they are not providing you in the package.


This is only true if a regular subscriber to the package is offered a free STB. If an STB is extra for all subs of the package, then no credit is issued.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TW must charge the same for all customers who use a CableCARD, whether they rent or own equipment. If the STB is not included in the service package, then obviously there would be no BYOB credit for a Tivo owner.

I don't know anyone who pays for a TA and I'm sure the FCC would like to hear from anyone who does.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

Honestly i do not think i save a nickle over a FiOS DVR. Especially given i have had a DVR expander die and had to replace a hard drive. Eating repair costs puts a dent in any savings one might have over a cable company DVR. Also with FiOS the cable card rental fee is normally $3.99 a month, also adding to overhead of using a TiVo over a cable company DVR and i use 2 TiVo's. I also use a FiOS DVR i do not/would not pay for. I also do not pay for the cable cards. FiOS DVR's and guide data SUCK compared to a TiVo.

Guessing a FiOS DVR might cost 15.99 a month, my 2 TiVo's cost me 19.00 a month for service on the 2. I prepay yearly, 129 for the first and 99 for the second which breaks down to 10.75 a month for the first and 8.25 for the second. Add to that 7.98 i would have to pay for the 2 cable cards. Thats brings me to 26.98 a month. Thats is a base savings of $5 a month or $60 a year. Calculating the cost of 2 FiOS DVR's in that per month, so i guess i do save a little. That of course does not take into account if one or both of my TiVo's break down i eat the repair cost and if my free FiOS DVR breaks down i call and they come right over with another free replacement..they break down a lot. FiOS DVR's are pretty much junk. However the newest models are better than earlier models. IMO

And NO, i would not be saving by using a Premiere Elite. The FiOS DVR (i do not pay for) is in my living room, so is my Premiere. My TiVo HD is in my bedroom so either way i need 2 TiVo's.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Hmm let's see 14 tuners would be 7 DVRs from FiOS at a minimum of $15.99 a month per box.

This would cost me about $1350 per year on top of my current cable bill not including the 7 external drives I woul have to buy to get the same amount of space.

I have been with FiOS about 3 years for a total of $4050. I have definitely spent less than that on my setup by at least half


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

I balance out. The cost of Tivo monthly balances out how much i paid for MRV with the cable company. i couldnt stand the software from them though so it is wayy worth it


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> Hmm let's see 14 tuners would be 7 DVRs from FiOS at a minimum of $15.99 a month per box.
> 
> This would cost me about $1350 per year on top of my current cable bill not including the 7 external drives I woul have to buy to get the same amount of space.
> 
> I have been with FiOS about 3 years for a total of $4050. I have definitely spent less than that on my setup by at least half


My HTPC has twelve tuners (eight for digital cable and four for OTA ATSC) and it costs me $0 per month for service and $8 for two cablecards. I also have a single HD STB that costs me $10 a month and a lifetime S3 Tivo with two S-cards @ $3 apiece (they're grandfathered in under the original FIOS rate). Total cost for my HTPC and tuners is probably about $1600 ($900 for the tuners and about $700 or less for the PC components and case). My HTPC case was actually the most expensive single item (besides the original Ceton tuner @ $399) as I wanted something that looks like an A/V component instead of a PC. The same setup with a more modest case and the current Ceton tuners would cost you considerably less.

I'll wager that my Ceton InfiniTV4 tuners will get me a higher return on investment (percentage-wise) than an unsubscribed Tivo ever will, even with a hard drive upgrade. Used Ceton tuners are going for almost as much as a new one on ebay. If you're lucky, a used Tivo with lifetime might net you about 40-60% of your original investment.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I've definitely saved money over the last 4+ years using TiVos than it would have cost me using FiOS DVRs. Plus the TiVos have many more features than even the current FiOS DVrs have. The only thing missing on the TiVos is VOD.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> My HTPC has twelve tuners (eight for digital cable and four for OTA ATSC) and it costs me $0 per month for service and $8 for two cablecards. I also have a single HD STB that costs me $10 a month and a lifetime S3 Tivo with two S-cards @ $3 apiece (they're grandfathered in under the original FIOS rate). Total cost for my HTPC and tuners is probably about $1600 ($900 for the tuners and about $700 or less for the PC components and case). My HTPC case was actually the most expensive single item (besides the original Ceton tuner @ $399) as I wanted something that looks like an A/V component instead of a PC. The same setup with a more modest case and the current Ceton tuners would cost you considerably less.
> 
> I'll wager that my Ceton InfiniTV4 tuners will get me a higher return on investment (percentage-wise) than an unsubscribed Tivo ever will, even with a hard drive upgrade. Used Ceton tuners are going for almost as much as a new one on ebay. If you're lucky, a used Tivo with lifetime might net you about 40-60% of your original investment.


My TiVos don't cost me anything per month except in electricity and CableCARDs. Also I don't have to deal with the headaches of my HTPC which is why I picked up the Elite and let my roommate use the HTPC. It is nice on the Elite not having to go in and delete multiple recordings of the same show which happens daily on my HTPC. For some reason Media Center thinks new only means to record the new episode every time it airs on many of my series recordings. I also don't have to deal with the pop-up that there is no signal because Media Center took longer to tune a channel than it thought it should. This happens every time it goes to record so in one night I will clear it over 20 times. This is also not counting the times when my recordings fail because the card goes missing and I have to reboot.

You also have crappy remote tools like remote potato though most of that falls on Microsoft since he is merely working with what limited tools he can. Still it comes nowhere near what I do daily with KMTTG and the iPad app on my TiVo which is another reason I abandoned Media Center.

As far as your 40-60% number you pulled out of your ass like always, it just isn't true as much as you want it to be.

Paid $698 for my Premiere XLs with lifetime at launch, someone recently sold some for $565, $630 and $640 on ebay in the last week. Definitely not 40-60%

Paid $350 for TiVo HD with lifetime and upgraded to 1TB. They have sold recently for $400 on ebay. Definitely not 40-60%.

Hmm Ceton InfiniTV 4 originally priced for $399. Not a single one sold above $250 recently with most below $230. Definitely 40-60% since you bought before the price drop.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> That's probably the list price for the card. You can bet Verizon only pays a fraction of that by purchasing bulk quantities.


Since they don't "sell" the cards, there is no list price as such.

It is likely their cost to replace it, which includes administrative costs in attempted recovery of the lost hardware, not just the bulk purchase price of the hardware.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> My TiVos don't cost me anything per month except in electricity and CableCARDs.


Yes, but you still had to pay for lifetime service. Your Tivos cost you to use the service regardless of whether you pay by the month or a huge lump sum. You're only deluding yourself if you believe otherwise.



> Also I don't have to deal with the headaches of my HTPC which is why I picked up the Elite and let my roommate use the HTPC. It is nice on the Elite not having to go in and delete multiple recordings of the same show which happens daily on my HTPC. For some reason Media Center thinks new only means to record the new episode every time it airs on many of my series recordings. I also don't have to deal with the pop-up that there is no signal because Media Center took longer to tune a channel than it thought it should. This happens every time it goes to record so in one night I will clear it over 20 times. This is also not counting the times when my recordings fail because the card goes missing and I have to reboot.


What headaches? My HTPC is rock solid and is as stable as any Tivo I've ever owned. If you're having problems like the ones you indicated then you should consider going back to the drawing board and set it up again from scratch (i.e., a clean install). There are also a few simple guidelines that need to be followed that can cause you some serious headaches if you don't do them right, such as setting up the proper audio configuration in Windows. It's something that's easily overlooked and often not considered, but it can be a pain to deal with the problems that result from improper setup.

I don't get multiple recordings of the same show if I've specified new recordings only. Multiple recordings are usually a problem associated with incorrect guide data. Tivos have been known to have the same issue on occasion. I used to have issues with missing USB tuners until I realized it was due to a faulty external USB hub. I've never had an internal tuner go missing from media center. If you're having tuner problems, uninstall the tuners in Windows and reinstall the drivers from scratch. Rerun TV setup in Media Center and I'll bet your problem goes away. Any type of instability like the ones you described can generally be attributed to bad drivers or improper installation.



> As far as your 40-60% number you pulled out of your ass like always, it just isn't true as much as you want it to be.


The numbers are based on actual sales figures I pulled off of ebay for S3 Tivos. I haven't checked the numbers for the Premiere. The bottom line is that you're basically selling the lifetime service and giving the Tivo away for free.



> Paid $350 for TiVo HD with lifetime and upgraded to 1TB. They have sold recently for $400 on ebay. Definitely not 40-60%.


I sincerely doubt that you paid that much for a new TivoHD with lifetime. I can see that for a used one. If you bought a used Tivo and then sold it as used then you should get close to a 100% return on your investment. Buying a used Tivo with lifetime can actually be a better deal than buying a new one, especially if you can replace the hard drive yourself. If you end up with a mainboard issue then you still haven't lost as much had you invested in a new unit with lifetime that's out of warranty.



> Hmm Ceton InfiniTV 4 originally priced for $399. Not a single one sold above $250 recently with most below $230. Definitely 40-60% since you bought before the price drop.


The current InfiniTV4 retails for $299. New ones are going for about $250 on ebay. Used ones sold in the past 30 days have sold for over $200. I bought one of the original InfiniTV4's at the $399 price (they were selling for much more than that on ebay at the time due to lack of availability) but I bought a 2nd one new for about $280 when they initially lowered the price.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I have lifetime (or 'evaluation') on all my Tivos and only get programing over the air or via the internet or library borrowing, so my 'overhead' is very low. I _have _to have broadband internet for business needs, so that doesn't cost me any more. I really like looking at the web using my Tivo.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Yes, but you still had to pay for lifetime service. Your Tivos cost you to use the service regardless of whether you pay by the month or a huge lump sum. You're only deluding yourself if you believe otherwise.


All of my quoted prices included lifetime. Just like you can't use Media Center without paying for Windows 7.



mr.unnatural said:


> What headaches? My HTPC is rock solid and is as stable as any Tivo I've ever owned. If you're having problems like the ones you indicated then you should consider going back to the drawing board and set it up again from scratch (i.e., a clean install). There are also a few simple guidelines that need to be followed that can cause you some serious headaches if you don't do them right, such as setting up the proper audio configuration in Windows. It's something that's easily overlooked and often not considered, but it can be a pain to deal with the problems that result from improper setup.


All of the problems mentioned are common threads over on theGreenbutton.



mr.unnatural said:


> Great for you, you don't record any of the shows we do. The guide data is correct on these shows which is why it makes it easy to delete since I can glance and see three episodes all with the same episode name.
> 
> Already done a clean install on multiple machines and happens about once a week regardless of the PC. It is also another thread that I check up on over at theGreenbutton.
> 
> ...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> All of my quoted prices included lifetime. Just like you can't use Media Center without paying for Windows 7.


Windows 7 comes pre-installed on most PCs these days, just like the Tivo OS comes with your Tivos. Media Center is part of every version of Win 7 except Home Basic.



> All of the problems mentioned are common threads over on theGreenbutton.


And of course we all know that threads posted in public forums rarely discuss problems people are having. The Green Button is pretty much a huge collection of complaints by beginners that get in over their heads. It's like watching the evening news and expecting to see something uplifting instead of worldwide tragedies.



> Great for you, you don't record any of the shows we do. The guide data is correct on these shows which is why it makes it easy to delete since I can glance and see three episodes all with the same episode name.


And how would you know what I record? Are you psychic or something?



> Already done a clean install on multiple machines and happens about once a week regardless of the PC. It is also another thread that I check up on over at theGreenbutton.


And I'll bet you installed it the exact same way on all machines each time. Can anyone see a pattern here? If you're having the same problems with each PC then it's clearly obvious you're doing something wrong. Win 7 Media Center is a fantastic app, but there is some setup required. If it's done incorrectly then it's pretty obvious you're going to have issues. Chances are there's a very simple solution to your problem.

Now, getting back on topic, I don't expect to get top dollar for any consumer electronic device when I'm an early adopter. It just happened that the S3 Tivo was the only option available to me when I signed up for FIOS other than their crappy Motorola DVR. I paid $600 for my first S3 (new) and about $350 for my 2nd one (used on ebay). I sold the 2nd S3 when my commitment ran out and I acquired my first Ceton tuner. With no lifetime and only two hard drive upgrades (500GB internal and 1TB external) I think I only got about $110 for the unit. No doubt the 1st S3 with lifetime will fetch much more, but far less than I invested in it, which is expected. Tivos will only sell for about 50% or less of what the current model is going for new (except the Elite). Lifetime does provide a much better return on investment, but like I said, you'll basically be selling the lifetime service and giving the Tivo away for free.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

my tivoes are lifetime tivoes so i save a lot. i just pay 6.00 a month for 4 cable cards. a dvr from the charter is 19.95 a month. a hd cable box is 10.00 a month. so im saving about 40.00 a month on with both tivo hds.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Windows 7 comes pre-installed on most PCs these days, just like the Tivo OS comes with your Tivos. Media Center is part of every version of Win 7 except Home Basic.


And just like a PC I can buy a lifetime TiVo without any future fees.

So then you pay for the PC so it isn't free and costs more than just the tuner. See I can pretend you don't mention something just like you like to do.



mr.unnatural said:


> And of course we all know that threads posted in public forums rarely discuss problems people are having. The Green Button is pretty much a huge collection of complaints by beginners that get in over their heads. It's like watching the evening news and expecting to see something uplifting instead of worldwide tragedies.


Well when the same issue pops up repeatedly and the response is always the same. It is obviously an issue. One of which apparently Microsoft won't fix since the issue has been around since the launch of Windows 7 beta. An issue that Ceton says they can't do anything about because it is hardcoded by Microsoft. Not to mention the other issues like the conflict manager causing Media Center to crash if you have more than 6 show conflicts and try to address them or you have a long show or football game that overlaps multiple timeslots. .



mr.unnatural said:


> And how would you know what I record? Are you psychic or something?


Nope not at all, but if you aren't seeing the issue then you aren't recording the same shows. Since it happens weekly on several shows.



mr.unnatural said:


> And I'll bet you installed it the exact same way on all machines each time. Can anyone see a pattern here?


Yup I followed Ceton's instructions. I guess I should blame them then.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

On thing i dont like about using wmc as a dvr is the power use. my computer uses 85 watts doing nothing. But i do have wmc running and recording shows from a tv antenna. When its not recording it hibernates to save power.

also wmc has no live buffers . But if the Ceton cable adaptor gets to 200.00 i might buy one.



innocentfreak said:


> And just like a PC I can buy a lifetime TiVo without any future fees.
> 
> So then you pay for the PC so it isn't free and costs more than just the tuner. See I can pretend you don't mention something just like you like to do.
> 
> ...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

tootal2 said:


> On thing i dont like about using wmc as a dvr is the power use. my computer uses 85 watts doing nothing. But i do have wmc running and recording shows from a tv antenna. When its not recording it hibernates to save power.
> 
> also wmc has no live buffers . But if the Ceton cable adaptor gets to 200.00 i might buy one.


There lots of PCs that use far less power. Where did you get the idea that WMC has no live TV buffers? It buffers live TV just like a Tivo does. In fact, here's a hack that allows you to increase it to whatever you want:

http://www.hack7mc.com/2009/07/incr...-buffer-length-in-windows-7-media-center.html



innocentfreak said:


> And just like a PC I can buy a lifetime TiVo without any future fees.


Yes indeed you can, but multiple Tivos with lifetime start getting damn pricey after the first one. With a PC you have an initial investment (which can be tasked for other things should you decide to retire it as a Media Center PC, unlike a Tivo, which becomes an expensive doorstop). Additional tuners can cost much less than a Tivo without service.



> So then you pay for the PC so it isn't free and costs more than just the tuner. See I can pretend you don't mention something just like you like to do.


I assume you're smart enough to understand the obvious. Then again, I could be wrong.



> Well when the same issue pops up repeatedly and the response is always the same. It is obviously an issue. One of which apparently Microsoft won't fix since the issue has been around since the launch of Windows 7 beta. An issue that Ceton says they can't do anything about because it is hardcoded by Microsoft. Not to mention the other issues like the conflict manager causing Media Center to crash if you have more than 6 show conflicts and try to address them or you have a long show or football game that overlaps multiple timeslots.


Or it could be a case of many people making the same mistakes while setting up Media Center (yes Virginia, it does happen). I'm not saying there aren't issue with Media Center as it's certainly not perfect. I'm just saying that most of them don't surface unless the planets are in perfect alignment. I've had 6 or more shows being recorded simultaneously with no problems. In fact, I've recorded 12 shows at once while playing back a 13th without so much as a single glitch.



> Nope not at all, but if you aren't seeing the issue then you aren't recording the same shows. Since it happens weekly on several shows.


If it's occurring all the time with the same recordings, wouldn't that lead you to believe that the issue could be with the broadcast stream and not the PC? Oops, sorry for mentioning the obvious once again. I'm assuming from your statement that it does not occur with the rest of your recordings, correct?



innocentfreak said:


> Yup I followed Ceton's instructions. I guess I should blame them then.


I was referring to a Windows install, not just the Ceton tuner. Did you run the Digital Cable Advisor prior to installing the tuners and before running Media Center TV setup? If it didn't work then you've got other issues with your PCs that are causing a conflict. I've never had any problems installing a Ceton tuner.

For HTPC use, I highly recommend going with only a barebones setup. Don't install any hardware or software over and above what you need to use Media Center. Avoid the vast majority of anti-virus programs as they tend to wreak havoc with WMC, especially Kaspersky. Download the free Microsoft Security Essentials and use that instead. AV programs are notorious for hosing up WMC.


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

takeshi said:


> It's not even a matter of saving money for me. I can't stand my cable co's DVR's. I'd certainly give them another shot if things change in the future.


+1

I am not saving money. Don't care either. Dislike the cable co DVRs.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Sadara said:


> +1
> 
> I am not saving money. Don't care either. Dislike the cable co DVRs.


And that's what having a Tivo is all about.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Saving money is icing on the cake. Having five or six DVRs from FiOS the last 4+ years would have cost me an arm and a leg.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Yes indeed you can, but multiple Tivos with lifetime start getting damn pricey after the first one. With a PC you have an initial investment (which can be tasked for other things should you decide to retire it as a Media Center PC, unlike a Tivo, which becomes an expensive doorstop).


Actually, TiVo retains a great deal of its value on eBay. Especially, if you drop in a 2TB drive (you get back much more than the $70 you paid for it) you'll typically recoup most of your investment (on a few occasions I have made a few bucks).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Charles R said:


> Actually, TiVo retains a great deal of its value on eBay. Especially, if you drop in a 2TB drive (you get back much more than the $70 you paid for it) you'll typically recoup most of your investment (on a few occasions I have made a few bucks).


Perhaps this is true with the current models. It has not always been the case. Anytime a newer model is introduced at a lower cost than it's predecessor, the resale value of any older models bottoms out. If you check completed auctions on ebay, you'll see that prices for non-lifetime Tivos are usually well below $100 on average.

Selling prices for lifetime Tivos tend to be all over the place. I see prices range from as low as $199 up to $565, depending on the model and recording capacity. The average price for a lifetime model, either series 3 or 4, seems to be at or below $400. Considering an S3 originally listed for $799 (and later dropped to $600) and lifetime service was $299, that's quite a hit for early adopters. Tivo HDs sold for about $200-250 or about $500-$550 with lifetime, although I believe lifetime jumped to $399 near the end of the HD's run, IIRC. Most seem to be going for about $350-$400.

I suppose if you take into account the amount of use you got out of the Tivo then it probably evens out in the long run. Of course, the earlier models ended up costing you more per month, but then it was probably in service for many more years, lowering the average monthly cost over it's time of use.

FYI - You can only use a 2TB drive in certain models, like the HD XL. I don't recall which others can be upgraded to this capacity with a single drive. Older models could still be upgraded to 2TB using both an internal and external drive, although it's obviously going to cost you a bit more going this route.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> It is nice on the Elite not having to go in and delete multiple recordings of the same show which happens daily on my HTPC.


You must not record The Daily Show.

(OK, that's just the common example, and it actually successfully removed today's reruns after calling in yesterday... and Monday reruns are actually the most common duplicates.. but I still do have to do a lot of housecleaning for the to do list for things like this. I say this as someone who has never SEEN a HTPC, btw.)


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mattack said:


> You must not record The Daily Show.
> 
> (OK, that's just the common example, and it actually successfully removed today's reruns after calling in yesterday... and Monday reruns are actually the most common duplicates.. but I still do have to do a lot of housecleaning for the to do list for things like this. I say this as someone who has never SEEN a HTPC, btw.)


Nope but the daily show is notorious for bad guide data so I would expect that media center and TiVo would have the same issues.

For example my roommate records death valley on MTV and said I should give it a try. On media center it is set for new only and it had 20 episodes recorded vs 6 on TiVo. There had only been 6 episodes and every single recording on media center had the episode name and synopsis. Several of the recordings were recorded the same night multiple times.

I have pretty much left media center to my roommate. It has potential but there are way too many things that need to be fixed before I would ever depend on it for my home.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bad guide data will affect any DVR, regardless of whether it's a Tivo or a Media Center PC. Unless it's flagged with metadata that identifies it as a repeat showing it's going to get recorded. Otherwise, the DVR thinks it's a first run showing and just does what it's told.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

i expect to save 80 bucks a month canceling directv  at least thats the plan. I used to read about how much lifetime costs and think people were nuts paying that huge fee up front....then i realized that 600 for the new premiere is just 8 months of directv cost then after that it's literally money in the bank. 

so my final savings with tivo should be 960 a year! 

i just hope the box doesnt break after my 3 year warranty expires....i'm assuming they will fix the box if it's more than the hard drive i can do myself


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## premiereman (Aug 18, 2011)

I have TWC and save about $25 a month on 2 boxes with lifetime. I don't consider myself saving ANYTHING until after the break even point of 2.5 years because I had to fork up a lot up of money upfront for the units. Since joining, I've noticed a lot of TiVo owners don't seem to take that into consideration.

Fortunately, TiVo's have really good resale value so you can recoup a lot of the cost you intitially paid for the devices when a new device is released (which seems to be every 2-3 years with TiVo, unlike Apple which goes through hardware revisions every single year).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

premiereman said:


> Fortunately, TiVo's have really good resale value ...


Only if you have lifetime on it. Resale value for Tivos with no lifetime is crap. You're better off salvaging the hard drive and then selling the Tivo for parts.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Amusing thread. 

DVRs are a luxury item and TiVos are premium DVR. 

Anyone who thinks you buy a premium luxury item to save money, please IM me I have a great investment for you. Best swamp land on the planet. 

Either you want to spend your discretionary income on a DVR or you don't. Either TiVo offers enough added value over your alternatives or it doesn't. Both are individual determination based on your own individual preference and circumstances. 

If all someone is concerned with is "saving money" the answer is simple don't watch (or even own) a TV and you will same lots of money.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Perhaps this is true with the current models. It has not always been the case. Anytime a newer model is introduced at a lower cost than it's predecessor, the resale value of any older models bottoms out.


I have used TiVos off and on since 2000 and I haven't keep detailed records but overall I'm fairly certain I have made money using TiVos over the years. Such that I sold them for more than I have paid taking the dozen or more units into account. Buy a unit, buy Lifetime, upgrade the drive and list it on eBay for a modest profit. Based on a variety of factors you'll sell it within a few days or several weeks. I have sold three in the last few months. When it sells repeat the process.

Typical experience... several years ago I dropped Comcast and purchased two Premieres and used both of them for roughly a year. When I decided to sign-up with Dish I upgraded their drives and sold them for above my actual cost (including eBay fees, etc). Of course you should consider new models and such. If they get introduced you have plenty of time to upgrade and _unload_ your current model.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

atmuscarella said:


> If all someone is concerned with is "saving money" the answer is simple don't watch (or even own) a TV and you will same lots of money.


Actually, you wouldn't be saving money you would be _not spending_ money. There is a big difference.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Charles R said:


> Actually, you wouldn't be saving money you would be _not spending_ money. There is a big difference.


Actually the only way to "save" money is to not spend it.

Associating saving money with spending money only exists in the minds of persons brainwashed by modern marketing.

You may spend less by buying something at a time that its price has been reduced but you are still spending money not saving it.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

atmuscarella said:


> You may spend less by buying something at a time that its price has been reduced but you are still spending money not saving it.


They are not mutually exclusive.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

but the more you spend the more you save!  thats what the store ad told me

and for the record i save 100% of my salary every week..until the checks clear


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

newsposter said:


> i expect to save 80 bucks a month canceling directv  at least thats the plan. I used to read about how much lifetime costs and think people were nuts paying that huge fee up front....then i realized that 600 for the new premiere is just 8 months of directv cost then after that it's literally money in the bank.
> 
> so my final savings with tivo should be 960 a year!
> 
> i just hope the box doesnt break after my 3 year warranty expires....i'm assuming they will fix the box if it's more than the hard drive i can do myself


You're not being logical, since you HAVE to pay for cable with the Elite. It does not work with OTA. So if you mean you're saving $80 from "lowest end basic/lifeline cable" to what you paid for at DirecTV, fine.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mattack said:


> You're not being logical, since you HAVE to pay for cable with the Elite. It does not work with OTA. So if you mean you're saving $80 from "lowest end basic/lifeline cable" to what you paid for at DirecTV, fine.


I saved over $100 a month by dropping directv and going with FiOS. I gained faster internet, HD, and didn't lose any channels so it is possible. I was paying $150 to directv and $90 to Verizon for Internet. My bill is less than $130 these days on Verizon.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

mattack said:


> You're not being logical, since you HAVE to pay for cable with the Elite. It does not work with OTA. So if you mean you're saving $80 from "lowest end basic/lifeline cable" to what you paid for at DirecTV, fine.


elite???


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Bad guide data will affect any DVR, regardless of whether it's a Tivo or a Media Center PC. Unless it's flagged with metadata that identifies it as a repeat showing it's going to get recorded. Otherwise, the DVR thinks it's a first run showing and just does what it's told.


This is not true, I have observed the same behavior - WMC will record shows that Tivo won't because it's not using the data the same way. WMC is inferior to Tivo in this regard, you don't have the issue (or more likely, don't care) but it does exist.

And I have also seen cases where the WMC guide data is not as up to date as Tivo's, for whatever reason. The bottom line is that Tivo is more accurate for recordings.

But the best DVR I've seen for this, hands down, is Myth, because it doesn't forget anything - every show recorded is kept in the DB so you never get the same show twice if the guide data is accurate.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> This is not true, I have observed the same behavior - WMC will record shows that Tivo won't because it's not using the data the same way. WMC is inferior to Tivo in this regard, you don't have the issue (or more likely, don't care) but it does exist.
> 
> And I have also seen cases where the WMC guide data is not as up to date as Tivo's, for whatever reason. The bottom line is that Tivo is more accurate for recordings.
> 
> But the best DVR I've seen for this, hands down, is Myth, because it doesn't forget anything - every show recorded is kept in the DB so you never get the same show twice if the guide data is accurate.


I'll admit I don't know how either setup uses the guide data for determining what gets recorded other than a show being flagged as a repeat. Multiple airings of a new episode on channels like FX or USA can sometimes sneak into the recording lineup because the software can't differentiate between a new episode and one that's aired in the same week. I tend to browse my recording list frequently to weed out extraneous recordings such as FX's infamous three-minute replays.

I also can't vouch for the quality of the guide data. I was under the assumption that both Tivo and WMC get their guide data from third parties and just relay it to their respective devices. I do like the fact that I have the option in WMC to update the guide data whenever I want and not have to dial into Tivo HQ and cross my fingers hoping that it will actually download an update to the guide data.

I've heard a lot of good things about MythTV. I never pursued using it because it doesn't always support the devices you have in your PC. I stuck with WMC because it was the only media center interface that worked with the InfiniTV4 cablecard tuners from Ceton. I understand that MythTV may have added support for the tuners if the channels are flagged as copy freely. I'm on FIOS so there's a good chance it will work for me. Perhaps in the near future I may experiment with MythTV and see if it works for me. For now, WMC does what I need and has been surprisingly stable for a Microsoft product. I'm no Microsoft fanboy, but Windows 7 is the most stable release they've ever developed.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> This is not true, I have observed the same behavior - WMC will record shows that Tivo won't because it's not using the data the same way. WMC is inferior to Tivo in this regard, you don't have the issue (or more likely, don't care) but it does exist.
> 
> And I have also seen cases where the WMC guide data is not as up to date as Tivo's, for whatever reason. The bottom line is that Tivo is more accurate for recordings.
> 
> But the best DVR I've seen for this, hands down, is Myth, because it doesn't forget anything - every show recorded is kept in the DB so you never get the same show twice if the guide data is accurate.


I find WMC only goes out 10 sometimes 11 days but it varies by channel. TiVo is always a consistent 12 days for me.

I think WMC only looks at the repeat flag which is a poor way to do it. TiVo since it uses the 28 day rule obviously uses things like original airdate among other things to tell if an episode is new or a repeat.

I would love to see TiVo implement a DB like Myth, but I don't record a ton of repeats so I wouldn't get much use out of it.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I'm seriously on the fence about switching back to Myth with the new support for Ceton and HDHomerun Prime Cablecard tuners. I would miss a few protected movie channels on Comcast (Encores, mainly) but I don't sub to premium channels which are the biggest drawback to using CC tuners with Myth on Comcast. unnatural, if you're on FIOS nothing is protected so you could experiment with Myth and get everything. Try it, you'll definitely like the master-slave architecture better than the poor excuse for extenders that we have with WMC today.

I used Myth before for a few years to get clear QAM HD channels but switched to WMC when 7MC came out, mostly because I could also use the PC as a Win server and part-time game PC in addition to overflow clear QAM recordings when my Tivos are busy. It doesn't get much use for that.

But now that you can build SFF, low-power, near-silent PCs with CC tuner support on Myth it might be a good way to upgrade from Tivo. Takes some work to do correctly but a good Myth setup just blows Tivo away, and last time I ran it I had high WAF with the UI skin that I chose. Auto commercial skip, outstanding and reliable DVR capabilities with tons of features, ability to play everything on the net natively with integrated video mgmt, browser w/Flash if you want webTV, it's got it all - probably the closest thing to what GoogleTV envisioned.

Hmm. The Elite has thrown another variable into the mix, assuming that Tivo can get the initial issues worked out and releases the Previews at a fair price. Guess I'll be waiting a little longer to see how it shakes out, I hope they've learned some lessons from the Premiere snafu.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

I wasn't unhappy with Comcast's DVRs but didn't like the idea of renting a device that didn't let save programs to external disks or files. They promised me that they would eventually support that capability. Their DVR started to fail but I didn't want to lose a couple of programs so I suffered with the flakey DVR for an extra year. I offered to keep the flakey DVR but asked them if I could just pay less in rental since it didn't work correctly. Of course that wasn't an option. Their response,_ "Bring it in and we'll give you a new one. Thank you for using Comcast." _

Before purchasing my first TiVo HDXL about 3 years ago, I created a spreadsheet comparing Comcast DVR rental with TiVo and service. The calculated break-even was 4.5 years. Since then, I purchased 2 TiVos more with break-even at 2-3 years. So, yes, I'm saving money as long as I don't upgrade every couple of years and catch the best deals offered at the time.


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## Johnwashere (Sep 17, 2005)

I save over 70 A MONTH becuase of my tivo  If I subscribed to my cable companys box and channels I would be paying sooo much more. Thanks tivo! :up::up:


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm able to get by with OTA and Tivo, so I'm saving the cost of a monthly cable bill minus the amortized cost of my Tivos.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

newsposter said:


> elite???


Yes, read the zillion other threads about it.


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## sirfracas (Apr 5, 2006)

Hilltopper06 said:


> It's now been a year since I dropped cable and went OTA with Tivo and I love the savings! But, the new Tivo Premiere Elite has piqued my interest. Unfortunately it is only available to digital cable subscribers.
> 
> If I buy an Elite with a Lifetime subscription and subscribe to Time Warner Digital Cable how much can I save by not using their box?
> 
> ...


It's a shame that it comes down to which monopoly you live under and how bad or good their network requirements are.

For me, it was a big savings: Pay Comcast $31.90 for two craptastic HD DVR boxes or, as I did 31 months ago, buy two refurbished Series 3 with lifetime service for @$1000. The two multistream cable cards cost me $3.00 a month.

I imagine refurbished Elite units will be available for @$300 in a few months.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

mattack said:


> Yes, read the zillion other threads about it.


why wouldi do that? i never used the word elite in my post, i clearly said PREMIERE in my post

so i stand by my savings of 80 a month vs my directv bill, as clearly stated in my previous post.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

The Elite *is* a Premiere.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

mattack said:


> The Elite *is* a Premiere.


but not all premieres are elite! so bringing up the elite when i mentioned just premiere was an unwarranted stretch  and i stand by my savings number


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