# Counterpart (Starz) Season One Thread *spoilers*



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

**Discussion allowed for any episode that has aired on Starz**

(Wiki) An espionage thriller with a metaphysical twist, _Counterpart_ tells the story of Howard Silk (JK Simmons), a lowly cog in a bureaucratic U.N. agency who is turning the last corner of a life filled with regret, when he discovers the agency he works for is guarding a secret: a crossing to a parallel dimension. Through Howard and his "counterpart" on the other side, the show will navigate themes of identity, idealism, what ifs, and lost love.

Good start. Interesting premise. J.K. Simmons is a great actor, so this is like getting two scoops for the price of one.

And the "other side wife" is not dead!


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Yeah, liked this cuz I'm a big J.K. Simmons fan. Plus, you get the added bonus of Viserys Targaryen. Can't wait to see how he dies in this one.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

astrohip said:


> And the "other side wife" is not dead!


Neither side has a dead wife. The "other side wife" is probably an ex-wife, this side's wife is in a coma from which she is apparently not expected to recover.

I can't wait either!


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> Neither side has a dead wife.


Didn't the "other side" version of J.K. Simmons' character tell his counterpart that his wife was dead, though?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

BrettStah said:


> Didn't the "other side" version of J.K. Simmons' character tell his counterpart that his wife was dead, though?


Yes he did. And in the final scene of the episode he has dinner with her.

Oh, I see what you meant, that her being alive was a surprise twist at the end. Yes it was.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

The mystery is why did he tell him that. Sympathy that this side’s wife could soon be dead? Jealousy that he doesn’t want him meeting her? Or a more sinister spy agenda entirely?


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

I liked it. He is playing both parts really well. I am on for the ride.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm torn. On the one hand, I've made a decision to let most dramas pile up until I have all the episodes are recorded and then binge watch them (notable exception: Game of Thrones). On the other hand, I really liked the first episode and want to discuss each week here. 

So I need to decide if my hate for waiting for "what happens next" is more than my love of TCF discussions!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Anubys said:


> So I need to decide if my hate for waiting for "what happens next" is more than my love of TCF discussions!


And in the end
The discussions you befriend
Are greater than the shows you binge.
_
(with apologies to The Beatles)_


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

I really liked the show and especially Simmons double characters. However I am uncomfortable with the "adult" language. I don't know why exactly because I learned to talk that way in the Army. I have tried to get better but I can't seem to. When it's so prevalent on TV Iike this, it seems to hinder my improvement. I may have to stop watching. I am torn. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, **** that ****! That kind of ****ing language is the way ****ing people talk in this ****ing age!


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, **** that ****! That kind of ******* language is the way ******* people talk in this ******* age!


I know. Even I do.
And so we sink further into the abyss. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I really enjoyed it and thought Simmons was fantastic at differentiating the mannerisms of the two characters. One is such a schlub and the other is very confident and you can tell which is which just by looking at them.

I thought it was interesting that Howard has been going to work at that place for 20+ years, has presumably been doing "interface" for most of that time, and had no idea where the people on the other side of the glass were coming from. Wouldn't you be curious about why you'd need this big elaborate setup just to have people passing documents back and forth like that?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I thought it was interesting that Howard has been going to work at that place for 20+ years, has presumably been doing "interface" for most of that time, and had no idea where the people on the other side of the glass were coming from. Wouldn't you be curious about why you'd need this big elaborate setup just to have people passing documents back and forth like that?


Well, it certainly explains why he hasn't moved up in the ranks...after 20 years, I'd probably be either in upper management or the bottom of a river.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

wtherrell said:


> I really liked the show and especially Simmons double characters. However I am uncomfortable with the "adult" language. I don't know why exactly because I learned to talk that way in the Army. I have tried to get better but I can't seem to. When it's so prevalent on TV Iike this, it seems to hinder my improvement. I may have to stop watching. I am torn.


I'd stay far away from The Magicians if I were you. That show is on basic cable and has more adult language than just about all the pay cable shows I watch.

I really like the fact that these two mirrorverses have a recent, known point in time at which they diverged.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I'd stay far away from The Magicians if I were you. That show is on basic cable and has more adult language than just about all the pay cable shows I watch.
> 
> I really like the fact that these two mirrorverses have a recent, known point in time at which they diverged.


Thanks. Yeah, I gave up on that one early on.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'd probably be either in upper management or the bottom of a river.


Will there be a poll?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

astrohip said:


> Will there be a poll?


It might be the first and only time in TCF history where we all agree on something


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> It might be the first and only time in TCF history where we all agree on something


Hey! Not ALL!


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

FYI,

*Episode 2* is now available a few hours early from Starz via On Demand or from their website. It's also available via magic.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Based on this thread and the opinions of those I trust/respect, I am going to have to check this show out.

It doesn't hurt that I have a free trial of Starz too.


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## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

Starz releases their originals (at least every one I've ever watched) to On Demand early in the day each week. it's darned convenient.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

This show is going to win some Emmys.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I find it interesting that to distinguish the two Nadias, they used a wig and a scar. And to distinguish the two Silks, they used J. K. Simmons.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I liked the skyline fade from spy city to schlub city. Spy city looks more affluent and has several extra modern skyscrapers that never got built in the other place.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

They obviously need some folks from Orphan Black working on this show. I noticed they very carefully didn't have any physical interaction between the two J. K. Simmons. The closest they came was trying to give the other one a pastry, but then they diverted everyone by talking about high cholesterol.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

So it looks like many of the Other (dark?) side folks are trying to kill off their This-side doppelgangers? Silk's comatose wife also good Nadia. But bad Nadia is trying most of the killing? So who on the dark side is orchestrating this. Guess that's part of the mystery. 
Wow, Nadia could really play that fiddle!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

If the world split into 2 thirty years ago, is Nadia then over 40 years old? She seems a lot younger than that.

The opening credit music reminds me of the theme for HBO's Westworld...


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I am very much enjoying. 
I am happy to see J.K. Simmons is doing TV after his much-deserved Oscar win.
I have thought he was amazing since Oz.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> If the world split into 2 thirty years ago, is Nadia then over 40 years old? She seems a lot younger than that.


She could be under 30 by at least a little...it would take some time for the worlds to diverge enough that people would be born in one but not the other.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

But they were once one person and shared the memory of watching their drunken father die on the train tracks when they were a little girl. So they have to be at least mid-thirties. Maybe the ‘thirty year ago divergence’ is just a rough approximation on the high side by a couple of years.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

series5orpremier said:


> But they were once one person and shared the memory of watching their drunken father die on the train tracks when they were a little girl.


How do you know that they were one person when that happened? I missed anything that would make that necessary...


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> How do you know that they were one person when that happened? I missed anything that would make that necessary...


Because at minute 19 spy Howard said to other Howard "based on the math we know these two women shared a past...nine.....ten years before the timeline diverged. Same childhood, traumas, behavioral, whatever." That's why he said they could learn more about Baldwin by studying Nadia. The actress who plays them is in her late 20s though, so they could have made a slight logic error or it's possible you could have latched onto some twist, but Baldwin seemed to believe they shared a past as well when she met Nadia face to face.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I suspect that doesn't mean what it seems to mean...this show doesn't seem that sloppy, and that would be a pretty major mistake (hiring a youthful 27-year-old to play somebody who's 40ish).


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Nadia in the subway was about 13 or so, so according to "..nine...ten years" that would be well after the split and we would have two different people having very similar experiences. But children on TV usually play roles significantly younger than the actor's age, so who knows.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

To me, it seemed pretty clear. I understood that the world split 30 years ago. From the description of Nadia, the split happened when she was 9 or 10 years old. For a show that precise, he would have said something along the lines of "The 2 Nadias would have basically shared the same experiences for the first few years after the split" or something along these lines. He didn't say anything remotely close to that. He said they were the same person until that age.

Both numbers were estimates (so 30 years may be 28 or 32 or something like that); the 9 or 10 discussion already gave us the wiggle room for THAT number. So Nadia cannot be in her 20s.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And since there's no way she's 39 years old, there must be something else going on. Either idiots running the show (which I don't believe), or we're misunderstanding what we've seen so far.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Is it possible that things were so similar in the early years after the split that they were both born and raised the same way? The major differences between the two began after the father died.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I believe once there’s a split their experiences can’t be exactly the same from the moment of the split. Their genetics and preferences remain the same, as we saw with the Howards wearing the same shirt and the Nadias going barefoot when they go to work, but specific events nonlinearly change from moment to moment. For example, if the train incident occurred after the split it would be possible for the father to still be alive in one world and dead in the other. Or possible the train incident occurred in one world but not the other. But they didn’t present it that way.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


> Is it possible that things were so similar in the early years after the split that they were both born and raised the same way? The major differences between the two began after the father died.


I don't think so. First, because he didn't say anything of the sorts and was clear that he was comparing the before/after regarding the split. But - second and most important - because the worlds should diverge significantly almost instantly. For the 2 of them to be at the same place and at the same time a year later so the father would die the same way should be considered next to impossible, IMO.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I don't think so. First, because he didn't say anything of the sorts and was clear that he was comparing the before/after regarding the split. But - second and most important - because the worlds should diverge significantly almost instantly. For the 2 of them to be at the same place and at the same time a year later so the father would die the same way should be considered next to impossible, IMO.


Why should they diverge significantly almost instantly? I would think it would start with tiny, almost imperceptible changes that over time would accumulate into significant ones. But I think at street level it might take years for the effects to trickle down...

What he said makes no sense given the facts already in evidence (30 years since the split; a woman who is clearly not 9-10 years older than 30). So either it's sloppy thinking or writing, or he's not saying what he seems to be saying.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I don't think so. First, because he didn't say anything of the sorts and was clear that he was comparing the before/after regarding the split. But - second and most important - because the worlds should diverge significantly almost instantly. For the 2 of them to be at the same place and at the same time a year later so the father would die the same way should be considered next to impossible, IMO.


I don't think they diverged significantly instantly.

Wasn't there a scene where he held his hands together to show how similar things were in the beginning?


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Everything doesn’t have to diverge at the same rate. It’s physics - the area of non-linear dynamics and chaos. Some details might not quickly and significantly diverge but Anubys is correct that other details probably will. It’s non-linear.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I think it’s possible she was only one or two at the time of the split and they had extremely similar experiences for the first eight or nine years, including how their father died.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

My intention was that at a micro level (i.e. for a given person), tiny deviations in the multitude of choices made by everyone around that one given person would change things at an exponential rate. So much so that there is little to no chance that the father's death could happen in both timelines even a few days later; let alone years later.

Society as a whole would be less noticeable and would happen at a slower rate. 

But I do agree that this detail could not have escaped the people in charge of the show. I don't think we have another Battlestar Galagtica disaster here; so I note the inconsistency and look forward to the explanation!


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Anubys said:


> My intention was that at a micro level (i.e. for a given person), tiny deviations in the multitude of choices made by everyone around that one given person would change things at an exponential rate. So much so that there is little to no chance that the father's death could happen in both timelines even a few days later; let alone years later.


I agree. Something as simple as the exact moment we feel like getting out of bed in the morning can change our course of events for the entire day - the order in which we do things, the exact path we walk or drive and places where we're going to at a particular time.

If there's no other twist to it I don't think it's that big of a deal not to give them a pass. It's not that unusual for an actor to play an age 10 years different from their own. When it's a hot 27 year old actress we're just more used to seeing one play 17 rather than 37 so it messes with our gender preconceptions.

I'm more concerned that there could be some double agent stuff going on, like maybe spy Howard and/or the guy who "accidently" killed Nadia wanted her to end up dead anyway; or maybe spy Howard set up his own retrieval to get his wife sidelined.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Here's a Tweet from the creator that answers it for me.



Spoiler





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/957840710572556288


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

The LED line/destination sign on the front of the subway train in the flashback was too new to be from 30 years ago.

But I'm not sure if that's intentional, or if the producers didn't notice that detail, or if they just did the best they could (i.e., the budget didn't allow for getting the Berlin transit authority to pull an older U-Bahn train out of mothballs).


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Unless Justin Marks addresses it and successfully explains it within the show he’s just making excuses.


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## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

I don't have access to the show right now (at work) but didn't the one say to the other something like "We both watched our father die" - wouldn't that imply that the split happened after that?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

ACoolDude said:


> I don't have access to the show right now (at work) but didn't the one say to the other something like "We both watched our father die" - wouldn't that imply that the split happened after that?


"We both watched him die. We both did it. How do you forget..."


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

ACoolDude said:


> wouldn't that imply that the split happened after that?


It does to me, but from the previous spoiler it seems Justin Marks is suggesting


Spoiler



first the world duplicated 30 years ago but was deterministically linked together in some exactly identical dual existence for 12-13 years before the timeline decided to independently separate. That's what reconciles the math if you assume Baldwin/Nadia are the same age as the actress who plays them. So the world duplicated before they were born but the timeline didn't separate until they were 9-10. It also suggests the two Howards experienced the same sad sack existence for 12-13 years before one went off on a 17-18 year path to become a super-spy.


But all this creates other far-fetched logic weirdness so I'm not buying it for now. I made the mistake of reading a Justin Marks interview and now I'm haunted by speculation about the interface between the two worlds and what could have influenced the world to duplicate to begin with. I think I'm onto something but I don't want to open that can of worms.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

series5orpremier said:


> It does to me, but from the previous spoiler it seems Justin Marks is suggesting
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I added two letters to your theory that change it considerably...


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Spoiler



'The' adequately describes everyone in both worlds being on the same timeline and living the exact same events. I view changing 'the' to 'their' suggests there are different timeline separation points (as opposed to one) within the same world, aka infinite worlds (and if there's any science in this fiction I don't even buy that there could even be one timeline separation point different from when the world was duplicated). Then how would Howard know exactly when the two Nadias' timelines diverged as opposed to the timelines of any other two doppelgängers? He wouldn't know that unless the timelines diverged at the same point for everyone, aka only two worlds. But then again he could have been BSing sad sack Howard as an excuse to incapacitate Nadia with a mickey. He already lied to him about his wife.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

(I'm despoilerizing this because at this point we're just speculating.) One possibility is that at the moment the two separate universes were created, they remained linked by, let's call it trans-dimensional quantum entanglement. Everything kept going on the same path, linked together. But the entanglement between two people could be broken by strong enough contrary conditions between them. At first, there would probably be minimal disentanglement, because the separate worlds were kept a secret (we know that at least in our world, it remains so today). Disentanglement would start at the facility in Berlin where the split was first triggered, as people encounter their counterparts and are necessarily forced down different paths. But out in the real world, where people were living their lives unaffected by those events, counterparts would continue down identical paths until something happened to disentangle them. Eventually, as disentangled people start to have more and more of an effect on the larger world, disentanglement would spread. Eventually, as their very civilizations evolve in different ways, it would become universal. But for street-level people like Nadia living far away from Berlin, it could take years from the initial break for their personal timelines to break apart.

That's one way it could happen that would satisfy everything we've seen so far. I'm sure somebody more clever than me could come up with others...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> (I'm despoilerizing this because at this point we're just speculating.)


Excellent...I was just about to post a question about why we're spoilarizing this speculation :up:



Rob Helmerichs said:


> One possibility is that at the moment the two separate universes were created, they remained linked by, let's call it trans-dimensional quantum entanglement.


Ah, the Ol' TdQE...a hoary and well founded theory. I approve!



Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's one way it could happen that would satisfy everything we've seen so far. *I'm sure somebody more clever than me* could come up with others...


um...that doesn't narrow down the list of candidates much


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

OK, genius, show us what you've got!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, genius, show us what you've got!


This may be an "uncle Miltie" situation 

I like your theory. It fits what we know so far AND would make the show even more interesting.

I know...I know...I'm just as shocked as everyone...but here it is...you did good!


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I think there were two events. The first caused the world to duplicate with identical timelines. The second, years later, caused the timeline to break off for everyone at the same time.


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

They made it clear that young Nadia lived before the split, but nowhere did they say the train accident happened before the split. When one Nadia said to the other "how do you live through it?" we assumed they shared the experience as one Nadia, but nowhere did the show indicate that was the case.

I think both Nadia's acted the same way from the same incident instead of it being a joint experience.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's one way it could happen that would satisfy everything we've seen so far. I'm sure somebody more clever than me could come up with others...


Of course there is always the possibility that the writers wanted certain plot points, so they decided to write it that way .


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tomhorsley said:


> Of course there is always the possibility that the writers wanted certain plot points, so they decided to write it that way .


That's entirely possible in Hollywood, but so far this doesn't seem to be that kind of show...hopefully I'm not wrong about that!


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

This show is intriguing.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Family said:


> They made it clear that young Nadia lived before the split, but nowhere did they say the train accident happened before the split. When one Nadia said to the other "how do you live through it?" we assumed they shared the experience as one Nadia, but nowhere did the show indicate that was the case.
> 
> I think both Nadia's acted the same way from the same incident instead of it being a joint experience.


Based on what they showed us in this episode, and the line spoken by the killer to the violinist "We both watched him die. We both did it. How do you forget?", I don't think there's any way to interpret it other than that Nadia was one person at the time she watched her father die on the U-Bahn tracks. It's very possible they could add more explanation in future episodes to add the complexity that's being speculated here. But we have to remember that explaining complicated concepts on TV shows is very difficult and expecting audiences to do math on ages and make assumptions about a difference between physical split and timeline split is a bridge too far. Therefore, I think we have to assume that until it's explicitly explained otherwise, the most logical answer is the one we were shown: Nadia (singular) watched her father die before the split.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think it's more likely that they separately watched their fathers die (i.e., their separate lives hadn't diverged by that point) than that she is a 40-year-old woman...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think it's more likely that they separately watched their fathers die (i.e., their separate lives hadn't diverged by that point) than that she is a 40-year-old woman...


It's entirely possible that will end up being the explanation. But it's not the explanation based on what was shown in this episode. They gave us no information or clues to indicate that the worlds physically split but that everything on the two sides continued to happen identically for many years. As Anubys said, that seems like a virtual impossibility.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

They did give us a clue. 

“Anyway, based on the math, we know these two women share a past. Nine, ten years before the timeline diverged. Same childhood, traumas, behavioral, whatever.”

“Timeline diverged,” not “world duplicated.”


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> They did give us a clue.
> 
> "Anyway, based on the math, we know these two women share a past. Nine, ten years before the timeline diverged. Same childhood, traumas, behavioral, whatever."
> 
> "Timeline diverged," not "world duplicated."


And the average viewer is supposed to understand that "timeline diverged" is a different event from "world duplicated"? Other than that Jordan Marks tweet, has there been anything in the show to indicate that? It seems like quite a leap of logic based on what they have shown us.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> And the average viewer is supposed to understand that "timeline diverged" is a different event from "world duplicated"? Other than that Jordan Marks tweet, has there been anything in the show to indicate that? It seems like quite a leap of logic based on what they have shown us.


Well, I guess that - in a way - this is a clue. No, we're not supposed to understand that it's different. But when they do explain that the timeline diverged years after the worlds were split (if they do go that route), they would then come back to this line in the "previously on" and highlight it.

The viewer would then have an "Oh" moment; and we are all impressed by how they had hinted at it but we didn't catch on...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Well, I guess that - in a way - this is a clue. No, we're not supposed to understand that it's different. But when they do explain that the timeline diverged years after the worlds were split (if they do go that route), they would then come back to this line in the "previously on" and highlight it.
> 
> The viewer would then have an "Oh" moment; and we are all impressed by how they had hinted at it but we didn't catch on...


Sure, and if they do that, then that will be great. But all I'm saying is that based on what we were shown in this episode, there is no reason to expect that.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Sure, and if they do that, then that will be great. But all I'm saying is that based on what we were shown in this episode, there is no reason to expect that.


But there IS reason to expect SOMETHING. Because no way is this a 40-year-old woman, which is what the plain reading of the conversation suggests. So something more than what we've seen or heard has to be going on.


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Often I need to come to this forum to figure out what is going on, but in this case I thought it was clear (based on her age and the 30 year split) that the show wanted the viewer to believe that the Nadia's experienced the death separately.

This might change with more information, but now I don't know what else it could be other than theories on where the show might go.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

I've watched this show a couple of times and the closest they really came to an explanation was when both Howards were sitting in the concert hall listening to rehearsal. Howard 1 was telling Howard 2 what was going on and discussing Nadia/violinist and Nadia/Baldwin/assassin.

Howard 1: "Based on the math we know these two women share a past. 9, 10 years before the timeline diverged. Same childhood, traumas, behavioral whatever."

Howard 2 still not quite catching on.

Howard 1: "Think of it this way. Up until 30 years ago there was just this [holds one hand up]. Then this happened [presses his two hands together]. Then this [holds his hands apart]. And now we're like .... [starts waving both hands around]. Two people, two completely different paths."

So the way I see it 30 years ago the universe duplicated. 9-10 years later the two universes diverged. Apparently the two Nadias shared the same experience of standing by and letting their father get run over by a train and shortly thereafter, when things diverged, they went in completely different directions with one sticking with the violin and the other turning all Jessica Bourne. With this scenario Nadia in the present could be in her late 20's, possibly early 30's.

The impression I get is that during those 10 years before divergence things were pretty much still the same in each universe. That's the sticky point. In any event now it's off the rails.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I just don't see any way for them to plausibly explain that the universe duplicated but all of the billions of people and tens of billions of choices those people make every day stayed identical between the two universes for many years after the split. I totally get Howard 1 saying that things started off similar and then eventually grew further apart. But to think that things stayed exactly the same, to the point that both Nadias were busking in the U-Bahn station at the same time and both fathers fell onto the tracks at the same time and both Nadias stood there and watched while their fathers were killed at the same time, is just way past the point of any plausible explanation.

If you told me that two sets of people made identical choices in the two universes the day after the split, I could believe that. A month after the split, that's a little harder to believe, but still plausible. But a decade after the split? C'mon!


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> If you told me that two sets of people made identical choices in the two universes the day after the split, I could believe that. A month after the split, that's a little harder to believe, but still plausible. But a decade after the split? C'mon!


I totally agree with this but as many have already pointed out the only explanation that would make sense and keep Nadia age appropriate for the timeline is that 1) Universe duplicated. 2) For 9-10 years everything remains exactly the same. 3) Universes diverge.

Perhaps the writers know a lot more about what happens when a universe duplicates then we're aware of. In any event, I'm just going with the flow. If that's the only bump in the show I'll be very impressed.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> I just don't see any way for them to plausibly explain that the universe duplicated but all of the billions of people and tens of billions of choices those people make every day stayed identical between the two universes for many years after the split. I totally get Howard 1 saying that things started off similar and then eventually grew further apart. But to think that things stayed exactly the same, to the point that both Nadias were busking in the U-Bahn station at the same time and both fathers fell onto the tracks at the same time and both Nadias stood there and watched while their fathers were killed at the same time, is just way past the point of any plausible explanation.
> 
> If you told me that two sets of people made identical choices in the two universes the day after the split, I could believe that. A month after the split, that's a little harder to believe, but still plausible. But a decade after the split? C'mon!


Why are you thinking people in the two universes will be making different choices? The usual model of human behavior is that choices are made based upon learned experience and innate instinctive behavior. Only experience would be different between the universes based on whatever changed at the moment of divergence; the rate that change would propagate through the world would be completely arbitrary. Nobody would be making different choices until they had different experiences. And it's completely reasonable for the father's choice to kill himself would have been unaffected between the two worlds even ten years after the split, just as Howard thirty years later choose the same blue shirt.

Just like in a time travel story, the rules have been made up by the writers for this particular story. At this point we still haven't been told exactly what those rules are nor what the initial conditions are that made the two universes different.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> Why are you thinking people in the two universes will be making different choices? The usual model of human behavior is that choices are made based upon learned experience and innate instinctive behavior. Only experience would be different between the universes based on whatever changed at the moment of divergence; the rate that change would propagate through the world would be completely arbitrary. Nobody would be making different choices until they had different experiences. And it's completely reasonable for the father's choice to kill himself would have been unaffected between the two worlds even ten years after the split, just as Howard thirty years later choose the same blue shirt.
> 
> Just like in a time travel story, the rules have been made up by the writers for this particular story. At this point we still haven't been told exactly what those rules are nor what the initial conditions are that made the two universes different.


You can't be serious...impulse choices would happen randomly and cascade into a totally different worlds very quickly.

Evenn simpler: imagine a man walking to his house in both worlds. Maybe he is half a second off the pace in one world versus another because he had to wave off a fly while he was walking. That half a second is the difference between a bus killing him in one and a bus missing him by an inch in the other. The two worlds are forever changed because of that one half second difference. Now add that random effect to every little decision, luck, microbe, mosquito, and - yes - butterfly; and it would be absolutely impossible for your scenario to come true.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ej42137 said:


> Why are you thinking people in the two universes will be making different choices? The usual model of human behavior is that choices are made based upon learned experience and innate instinctive behavior. Only experience would be different between the universes based on whatever changed at the moment of divergence; the rate that change would propagate through the world would be completely arbitrary. Nobody would be making different choices until they had different experiences. And it's completely reasonable for the father's choice to kill himself would have been unaffected between the two worlds even ten years after the split, just as Howard thirty years later choose the same blue shirt.
> 
> Just like in a time travel story, the rules have been made up by the writers for this particular story. At this point we still haven't been told exactly what those rules are nor what the initial conditions are that made the two universes different.


In addition to what Anubys said, not every choice is based on learned experience and innate instinctive behavior. What if someone walks out to their car and realizes they left their keys in the house so they go back inside to get them. Is that the type of thing that is based on experience and instinct, or is it just a random mistake? Do we expect that both versions of that person in the two different worlds would both make the exact same mistake at the exact same time on the exact same day? Or would the one version be 1 minute behind the other one in his commute? And if one of them is a minute behind and gets stopped at a different stop light, that puts them in proximity to different traffic and would automatically result in changes. Think about how many choices you make on a daily basis. How many are based on experience and instinct, versus reacting to other people or outside forces. Are you thinking that every conversation in both worlds is identical for years after the split? Every movement of people and animals? Is the weather identical, or does it rain at different times in the two universes? What about natural disasters? Do those happen simultaneously? What about mechanical failures? If there is a car crash due to a blown tire in one universe, are we supposed to assume the tire blew at the exact same time in both worlds?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Anubys said:


> ...imagine a man walking to his house in both worlds. Maybe he is half a second off the pace in one world versus another because he had to wave off a fly while he was walking.


At the instant universes separated, the two men in both worlds would have exactly the same initial conditions. Absent quantum effects, they would continue to do exactly the same things. Their events could not possibly be a half second, a half millisecond, or a half microsecond different. Sure, at the level of quantum foam they would be different, but not on any time scale meaningful to human perception.



DevdogAZ said:


> In addition to what Anubys said, not every choice is based on learned experience and innate instinctive behavior. What if someone walks out to their car and realizes they left their keys in the house so they go back inside to get them?


They would be two identical brains operating under the same biochemical constraints. Unless and until affected by different outside forces, their biological thinking machines, their physical brains, would remember those keys at exactly the same microsecond and both go back into the house with exactly the same motions and timing.

Even the African butterfly making hurricanes by flapping her wings would be flapping them exactly the same in both universes and creating the same weather systems in both universes, up until the effects of the whatever is different between the universes reaches it. Then, as Howard describes in the concert hall, the hands would begin to diverge, and differences would become apparent in the macroscopic world.

In any case I'm excited to see what is coming in the next episode.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> At the instant universes separated, the two men in both worlds would have exactly the same initial conditions. Absent quantum effects, they would continue to do exactly the same things. Their events could not possibly be a half second, a half millisecond, or a half microsecond different. Sure, at the level of quantum foam they would be different, but not on any time scale meaningful to human perception.
> 
> They would be two identical brains operating under the same biochemical constraints. Unless and until affected by different outside forces, their biological thinking machines, their physical brains, would remember those keys at exactly the same microsecond and both go back into the house with exactly the same motions and timing.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but I could not disagree any more with your view. I'm not insulting you but I do think what you are saying is bordering on insane!

You are saying that the entire world is completely preordained with absolutely nothing is left to randomness or chance. As Devdogaz said, you are proposing that even mechanical processes will stress and break at the exact same instant. You're saying that electrical current will vary exactly the same way on every wire and to every machine. Every ejaculation into a cervix will result in the exact same sperm reaching the egg, for example.

I cannot agree with this.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

As Anonymous said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Clearly we have significantly different world views. I hope your viewpoint does not diminish your enjoyment of the teleplay.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> As Anonymous said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Clearly we have significantly different world views. I hope your viewpoint does not diminish your enjoyment of the teleplay.


That definition of insanity is itself insane if understood as an absolute.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

ej42137 said:


> As Anonymous said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Clearly we have significantly different world views. I hope your viewpoint does not diminish your enjoyment of the teleplay.


It's just that your world view doesn't believe in statistics which changes the laws of physics. Every moment is not an absolute but a distribution of possibilities, even if initially on a microscopic level, and none of your learned behavior or innate instincts have any control over that. If there are two universes then that's a two case Monte Carlo simulation.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

wtherrell said:


> That definition of insanity is itself insane if understood as an absolute.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


I'm sure this remark would devastate me if it were not empty of semantic content.

Also, could you please turn off your Tapatalk sig? It is very rude.



series5orpremier said:


> It's just that your world view doesn't believe in statistics which changes the laws of physics. Every moment is not an absolute but a distribution of possibilities, even if initially on a microscopic level, and none of your learned behavior or innate instincts have any control over that. If there are two universes then that's a two case Monte Carlo simulation.


No, I don't believe that statistics change the laws of physics. Statistics is a mathematical tool for modeling systems where information is incomplete or too complex for deterministic modeling, it does not change the physics of those systems for which it is applied.

===

I believe you guys are all correct in concluding that a world that is random at the gross macroscopic level is incompatible with what we see described in "Counterpart". Where we differ is that I don't think that random world is compatible with the one in which we actually exist.

I hope that your world view does not detract from your enjoyment of the narrative. A suspension of disbelief is necessary for the full enjoyment of science fiction.


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## Allanon (Nov 2, 2005)

I think the divergence would happen fast because once one person is split in to two people they would not move identically. Each step a person takes is not the same as the previous step there are slight variations and the two people would not be able to duplicate the same movements precisely thus causing a fast divergence. One person might walk a little slower and miss a traffic light. The other person might trip because they stepped wrong causing a greater divergence. This happening to billions of people at the same time will cause a fast divergence.

Plus they hinted that one side messed with the other side and that alone would cause a divergence.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

ej42137 said:


> No, I don't believe that statistics change the laws of physics.


And, in addition to statistics, your world view doesn't believe in reading comprehension either.


ej42137 said:


> Where we differ is that I don't think that random world is compatible with the one in which we actually exist.


The world in which we actually exist is not the one in which you get to ignore math and science nor the one in which you get to make up your own rules.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

series5orpremier said:


> And, in addition to statistics, your world view doesn't believe in reading comprehension either.


If you meant to say that I don't believe in statistics, you left out a comma in your original remark. If you think I don't understand statistics you are mistaken. If you don't believe in cause and effect we are so far apart in world view that I don't think any further discussion would be fruitful.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

ej42137 said:


> ... I don't think any further discussion would be fruitful.


I can agree with this. I'll just document out to the inter-webs that cause & effect, comma in case anyone decides to ignore context, and statistical randomness are not mutually exclusive.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

Sorry about the Tapatalk sig, guys. I turn it off but it keeps coming back. Don't know why I keep expecting different results. I hope it's off again now. (I think) 
Got to say, this show has really caught my interest and you guys discussing it are great!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> I'm sure this remark would devastate me if it were not empty of semantic content.
> 
> Also, could you please turn off your Tapatalk sig? It is very rude.
> 
> ...


I just want to make sure that when I called your worldview insane, my intention was not to insult you but to inarticulately express my astonishment that someone would hold that view.

What you are proposing is that everything that we attribute to randomness in our world is simply because the world is too complex for us to see the pattern. It is a fantastic claim, to be sure, and one that you must certainly agree puts you in a very very small minority that holds it.

I am curious if this belief is born out of religion or not. I don't intend to get into a theological debate (God forbid! ) but I am curious as to how one arrives at such a fatalistic and deterministic view of the world.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

There was a philosophy proposed called Scientific Determinism back in the day. Denies free will. We can't be held responsible for what we do since we have no choice. It always sounded fishy to me, but there were and still are some proponents of it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wtherrell said:


> There was a philosophy proposed called Scientific Determinism back in the day. Denies free will. We can't be held responsible for what we do since we have no choice. It always sounded fishy to me, but there were and still are some proponents of it.


Quantum physics killed determinism as a logical possibility.

Which, of course, doesn't stop people from believing in it!


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Anubys said:


> I just want to make sure that when I called your worldview insane, my intention was not to insult you but to inarticulately express my astonishment that someone would hold that view.
> 
> What you are proposing is that everything that we attribute to randomness in our world is simply because the world is too complex for us to see the pattern. It is a fantastic claim, to be sure, and one that you must certainly agree puts you in a very very small minority that holds it.
> 
> I am curious if this belief is born out of religion or not. I don't intend to get into a theological debate (God forbid! ) but I am curious as to how one arrives at such a fatalistic and deterministic view of the world.


It is very hard for me to believe that anyone who cared about these concepts could be unaware of the history of debate on this issue. Still, it is worth considering the basis of my thinking. I'll give it some consideration and get back to you here.

===

*However*. All of this discussion is about the real world, which none of us here in TCF really care about. What is really important is how things work in the fictional world of TV, movies and literary Science Fiction. We know from the many examples of the "Groundhog Day" trope (see link here) that there is absolutely no randomness in fictional time, that every iteration of a fictional time loop is exactly the same as the previous iteration except for changes due to the protagonist's action. Whether or not the "real world" is deterministic, fictional time loops never contain any random events.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Anubys said:


> I am curious as to how one arrives at such a fatalistic and deterministic view of the world.


If I assume cause is followed by effect, that the universe has rules and that they are knowable, by learning those rules and using them I can successfully live my life. If instead I were to conclude that the universe is an unsolvable mystery and that I am the victim of random unknowable chance, I would be without hope and despair.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> If I assume cause is followed by effect, that the universe has rules and that they are knowable, by learning those rules and using them I can successfully live my life. If instead I were to conclude that the universe is an unsolvable mystery and that I am the victim of random unknowable chance, I would be without hope and despair.


I don't know why such extremes are your choices. Bad luck is balanced by good luck, isn't it?

But in a larger sense, I control a significant amount of my fortune. I studied hard and worked hard. I earned my degrees and my promotions. I earn my paycheck. I save for the future and I plan for emergencies. I choose to forgo some pleasures because they are illegal or simply because the might be distracting me from my goals....and so on and so on...

Sometimes, I was in the right place at the right time. Sometimes I wasn't. Things happened (good and bad) that were beyond my control. I had in my hand a lottery ticket that could have won me half a billion dollars. Someone else won instead. Random chance could have made me a half-billionaire; but it made someone else that instead. I had no control over that but I controlled a ton about my life.

I have a ton of hope and very little despair.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Regarding Episode 3:

Did I understand correctly that "our" side has advanced technology such as smartphones, while the "other" side has other advances such as vaccines, HIV treatment, mapping the human genome, and underwater oil exploration? And the "other" side claims to be behind in technology development because they had to fight some kind of pandemic that "our" side didn't have to deal with?

That all seems like a strange mixture. We know the air on the "other" side seems to be cleaner, they have more tall buildings. So it just seems very odd that one side would be more advanced in electronics while the other side would be more advanced in biology and biochemistry. Seems like those scientific advances would require some pretty sophisticated electronics. And I'm not even sure what to make of the oil exploration in the Marianas Trench. Seems like that would require some very advanced technology as well.

Also, pretty amazing revelation about the Emily on our side being aware of the two worlds and being in communication with the "other" Howard. Since the "other" Emily appears to have just been murdered, I'm guessing "our" Emily will soon wake up out of her coma so she can advise "our" Howard about what's going on.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Also, pretty amazing revelation about the Emily on our side being aware of the two worlds and being in communication with the "other" Howard. Since the "other" Emily appears to have just been murdered, I'm guessing "our" Emily will soon wake up out of her coma so she can advise "our" Howard about what's going on.


Plus there's the question of "who she really is." Their Howard found out, and it ended their marriage. Our Howard hasn't found out.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> We know the air on the "other" side seems to be cleaner, they have more tall buildings. So it just seems very odd that one side would be more advanced in electronics while the other side would be more advanced in biology and biochemistry. Seems like those scientific advances would require some pretty sophisticated electronics. And I'm not even sure what to make of the oil exploration in the Marianas Trench. Seems like that would require some very advanced technology as well.


The decay of radioactive isotopes is a quantum mechanical process that is truly random, as Schrodinger's poor/lucky cat would tell you. The resultant ionizing radiation is a significant cause of genetic mutation, which one might conclude is the source of the pandemic that Prime universe experienced but which did not happen in Alpha. This plague apparently resulted in a significant depopulation of the Earth, which would make it worse than anything since the Black Death. It seems reasonable to me that a plague worse than any since the Middle Ages would cause resources to be expended in the biological sciences over integrated circuit technology and consumer electronics.

Exploring the Marianas Trench was done by Jacques-Yves Cousteau in the bathyscaphe Trieste in 1960. Drilling for oil at that depth would take an advanced technology but not obviously one requiring the development of consumer electronics. The Soviet Union almost got to the Moon without consumer electronics, for example.

This is developing really well. I'm eager to see what comes next, and what everyone has to say about it here.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It seems to me they were hinting that the pandemic came from our side, whether on purpose or by accident...


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It seems to me they were hinting that the pandemic came from our side, whether on purpose or by accident...


Prime accused Alpha, Alpha denied it; both sides are unreliable narrators. Which begs the question of where it came from in the first place; Prime is the one with enhanced biotech, not Alpha. If it originated on Alpha, it would have been artificial because the there was no pandemic Alpha side, but the Alpha side presumably would not have the ability to create it (which ability I presume in any case was the result, not a precursor, of the plague ). A natural mutation on the Prime side seems the simplest explanation to me, but it instead could have come out of a Cold War biowarfare laboratory that predated the split. We'll have to see what else is revealed about the plague in future episodes.

Both sides are vigorously attempting to control cross contamination, which to me suggests that microbial evolution has differed significantly between the two worlds. Or they might just be paranoid about each other.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The impression I got is that Prime thinks Seconde started the pandemic but simply lacks the proof.

Also, it looks like only Prime is worried about germs; which makes sense given their paranoia. It's also interesting which world is considered prime!

Finally, I don't get the impression that Emily was killed. I got the impression that she was set-up to have had a relapse. They already successfully labeled her as a drugie; so now they are finishing her career.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

Show gets better and better!


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Anubys said:


> It's also interesting which world is considered prime!


They have the modern glass buildings but also had a pandemic and seem like a big brother dictatorship. The origin of the 'prime' label seems to be more about the relative personalities of the two Howards than anything else.

Coma Emily saying that she protected her Howard from the messiness makes me think she had an influence in discouraging his aspirations and suppressing his career.


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus there's the question of "who she really is." Their Howard found out, and it ended their marriage. Our Howard hasn't found out.


I had thought that the Emilys had switched at some point. I found it significant that early in the episode when she was taken to the hospital Howard mentioned that she had her appendix out as a child and several years ago had broken an elbow (if I recall correctly) and had pins inserted. That seemed like a significant detail to include and a way to tell them apart. But then I was confused by her reading the note she got from the church. Would she be reading it like that if she had written it herself? Plus the scene of her crossing over to the other side made it seem like her first time.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

She did say it was her first time crossing. And she didn't know some of the finer details of going through the doors and stuff.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Why are we calling the "other" side Prime? Shouldn't "our" side be Prime?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I just started watching this show Sunday night. I enjoyed the first episode and am looking forward to watching the next two episodes, sometime this week.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Why are we calling the "other" side Prime? Shouldn't "our" side be Prime?


I did so because the CC calls the Emily from the other side Prime Emily...that's when I noticed it, anyway. Then people here started using that so I went with the flow.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Why are we calling the "other" side Prime? Shouldn't "our" side be Prime?


I read an interview with the creator and he said that they call "our" side Alpha and the other side Prime.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> Why are we calling the "other" side Prime? Shouldn't "our" side be Prime?


My wife makes me turn on closed captions.



getbak said:


> I read an interview with the creator and he said that they call "our" side Alpha and the other side Prime.


I was calling the other side Seconde for obvious reasons, I needed something to call it. But I like "Alpha" much better, it symmetrically makes both sides different but equal.

Easy to remember, too: Prime has the plague, Alpha has Apple.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Anubys said:


> Finally, I don't get the impression that Emily was killed. I got the impression that she was set-up to have had a relapse. They already successfully labeled her as a drugie; so now they are finishing her career.


In video language, fixed open eyes = dead. They better wake up Alpha Emily or I'm going to be pissed!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> Easy to remember, too: Prime has the plague, Alpha has Apple.


Ooh...I like that...



ej42137 said:


> In video language, fixed open eyes = dead. They better wake up Alpha Emily or I'm going to be pissed!


huh...I thought she blinked...which is why I thought she was just paralyzed momentarily...

It makes no sense. People who OD don't fall down with pills scattered around them. And an autopsy would show that there are no drugs in her system. That is another reason why I figure it's just a setup to ruin her career.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm having a hard time keeping track of who is on what side.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> huh...I thought she blinked...which is why I thought she was just paralyzed momentarily...
> 
> It makes no sense. People who OD don't fall down with pills scattered around them. And an autopsy would show that there are no drugs in her system. That is another reason why I figure it's just a setup to ruin her career.


But there are drugs in her system. When she entered the house, she reached to turn on the lamp and pricked her finger. Then within about a minute she became woozy and passed out on the floor. Presumably, the intruder put some kind of needle on/near the lamp switch so she was stuck when she reached for the switch.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> But there are drugs in her system. When she entered the house, she reached to turn on the lamp and pricked her finger. Then within about a minute she became woozy and passed out on the floor. Presumably, the intruder put some kind of needle on/near the lamp switch so she was stuck when she reached for the switch.


Yes, and presumably what they drugged her with will be consistent with the pills.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> But there are drugs in her system. When she entered the house, she reached to turn on the lamp and pricked her finger. Then within about a minute she became woozy and passed out on the floor. Presumably, the intruder put some kind of needle on/near the lamp switch so she was stuck when she reached for the switch.


There is no presumption about it. We saw she pricked herself, we saw her faint, and we saw the guy remove the needle from the lamp.

But "drugs" don't do that to a person...heroin, cocaine, etc would not fit at the tip of a needle and have that effect...she was poisoned by something very powerful that either kills or paralyzes within a minute with only a tiny dose...an autopsy may not reveal the type of drug but would certainly eliminate what it is not...

furthermore, I'm simply saying she didn't seem dead to me, regardless of the type of drug!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> There is no presumption about it. We saw she pricked herself, we saw her faint, and we saw the guy remove the needle from the lamp.
> 
> But "drugs" don't do that to a person...heroin, cocaine, etc would not fit at the tip of a needle and have that effect...she was poisoned by something very powerful that either kills or paralyzes within a minute with only a tiny dose...an autopsy may not reveal the type of drug but would certainly eliminate what it is not...
> 
> furthermore, I'm simply saying she didn't seem dead to me, regardless of the type of drug!


I don't know if she's dead. However, it seems like it fits the narrative the best, since she just found out a big secret but was unable to tell anyone else. That's usually the way these things play out in fictional stories.

As for what kind of drug was injected, I think we have to assume the intruders are sophisticated and wouldn't scatter the pills around her like that unless they had rigged it so that type of drug is also what appears in her system. It would be pretty reckless and foolish for them to go to all that effort to covertly enter her apartment, set up the needle, and scatter pills around her body if the inevitable toxicology reports were going to show something completely different in her system. Therefore, we have to suspend our disbelief a bit as to what kind of drug could be injected in that manner and would have that kind of rapid effect. Those things were specifically done for TV, as it was more interesting and more spy-like to have her "inadvertently" prick her finger, and they don't want to spend 10-60 minutes focusing on how she becomes increasingly more woozy as the drugs are metabolized by her system. So this was TV shorthand for her being drugged and it being staged to look like an OD (perhaps a suicide attempt).


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Anubys said:


> huh...I thought she blinked...which is why I thought she was just paralyzed momentarily...


Upon reviewing the last scene in slow motion, I see that she never blinks, but immediately after the pills are dropped around her you can see her eyelids twitch ever so slightly. In addition, in the very last view we have of her as we fade out, her head is at a slightly different angle and her eyes are slightly more closed than in previous views; I presume that was a continuity error, but I have no idea whether we were intended to see the twitch or not.


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## Thom (Jun 5, 2000)

Emily-Prime's killers may have used a deadly substance that isn't tested for in the Prime world due to being exotic/rare. Plus they may be able to influence the autopsy conclusions and report.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I just finished Binging on Altered Carbon and now going through the last season of Shameless. Since the TCF discussion on this show is not GoT-level, I've decided to wait until all the episodes have aired before binging this show as well. I like watching an entire season over a span of a couple of days. Waiting around from week to week is intolerable to me.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

I'm certainly glad I was wrong about Emily Prime being dead. I was not expecting Howard Alpha to start living Howard Prime's life better than Howard Prime himself.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> I'm certainly glad I was wrong about Emily Prime being dead. I was not expecting Howard Alpha to start living Howard Prime's life better than Howard Prime himself.


Although "better" is not entirely the right word, considering his cover was blown inside of about 15 minutes...  One could argue that Alpha is almost (but not quite) as bad at playing Prime as Prime is at playing Alpha.

I think they did a terrible job last episode of showing not-dead Emily in a way that even hinted she was, well, not dead. But overall, this remains an amazing show, especially J. K. Simmons. He's almost getting into Orphan Black territory with how well he nails playing different characters, and different characters impersonating each other. I think it could get interesting if Prime decides he needs to work harder at being Alpha, and how that affects him...


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although "better" is not entirely the right word, considering his cover was blown inside of about 15 minutes...


Prime put Alpha's job in jeopardy ten minutes after arriving at work. In a couple of hours Alpha reconciled with Prime's ex-wife and daughter and laid a solid foundation for making an ally out of Emily Prime, in spite of breaking cover. In terms of fitting in, Alpha did way better his first day than Prime.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> Prime put Alpha's job in jeopardy ten minutes after arriving at work. In a couple of hours Alpha reconciled with Prime's ex-wife and daughter and laid a solid foundation for making an ally out of Emily Prime, in spite of breaking cover. In terms of fitting in, Alpha did way better his first day than Prime.


Except all the things he did din't help him "fit in," because people are noticing his unusual behavior.

Better human being; but much worse Prime. The only thing that saves him in the "competition" is that Prime wasn't even trying.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I finally caught up with this and watched the fourth episode last night.
I was surprised about the talk about Emily. They made it very obvious that she was still alive, at the end of episode 3.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

The underground tunnel between the worlds is either an abandoned subway tunnel (where Baldwin’s father died?) or an abandoned particle accelerator.


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Fantastic television, but I agree they handled Emily's non death poorly. I saw nothing obvious that indicated she was not dead.

The show is able to have a 60's spy movie feel, while still keeping a modern high tech appeal, because of the differences in technology between the worlds. It's really well done, even if I have to suffer a week between episodes.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think they did a terrible job last episode of showing not-dead Emily in a way that even hinted she was, well, not dead.


It wasn't so terrible that I didn't notice it 



aaronwt said:


> I was surprised about the talk about Emily. They made it very obvious that she was still alive, at the end of episode 3.


I agree. You would think people would learn by now that when their opinion is different from mine, they need to re-evaluate their logic!

 

I was all set to not watch this show until the season's end...but there was nothing on my DVR that I was in the mood for other than this show...I could almost hear it "watch me...watch me...you know you want to..."


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> It wasn't so terrible that I didn't notice it


Then you weren't paying close enough attention.  She twitched a few times, then there was a very long pull back during which she was utterly motionless, staring out with dead eyes. She was dead dead DEAD!

And then, apparently, she got better. Very poorly done.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then you weren't paying close enough attention.  She twitched a few times, then there was a very long pull back during which she was utterly motionless, staring out with dead eyes. She was dead dead DEAD!
> 
> And then, apparently, she got better. Very poorly done.


I thought she was staring out with paralyzed eyes. She couldn't move after being drugged. And could see everything that was going on.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I thought she was staring out with paralyzed eyes. She couldn't move after being drugged. And could see everything that was going on.


EXACTLY...what director shows you the point of view of a dead person?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> EXACTLY...what director shows you the point of view of a dead person?


This is a rhetorical question, btw. Please, folks, do not answer: "Rob"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> EXACTLY...what director shows you the point of view of a dead person?


Um...they didn't show her point of view. The camera was pulling away from her.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Thoughts about Anna:

1. Powerful stuff with the two Howards walking into Anna's room for the first time. Looking at the drawings of his never-had-daughter sure made my basement very dusty all of a sudden.

2. Anna has to be the singular turning point event in Howard's life. It doesn't seem to have changed Emily, though.

3. Strangely, Anna was miscarried in the less obvious universe. You would think that the world with the Pandemic is the one where a miscarriage would occur (although maybe the paranoia about germs saved the fetus). But you would also think that losing the baby is what hardens Howard, not soften him (and vice versa for Howard Prime). But the loss seems to have had the opposite effect (not as likely but also understandable).

4. We know that Emily Prime has never crossed. But what if Emily Prime is actually Emily Alpha?

stay with me: Emily Alpha miscarries. It's a late enough miscarriage that they knew the gender and picked out a name and bought a ton of stuff. In her grief, is it possible that she drugs Emily Prime and brings her to Alpha world (the 2 worlds have not yet diverged enough to notice), switches lives with her and has her daughter?

completely far-fetched since Emily Prime clearly carried to term...but maybe more twists and medical tech could make it happen (if Anna was a premie that was saved by the advanced medical tech, for example, while she could not be saved in Alpha world). I know it's crazy, but wouldn't that be huge?!


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

I like your theories and hope they continue, but I thought you were going to power watch?


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

The girl who rescued Baldwin and then was supposed to kill her. She took the gun out of the drawer and I thought she was going to kill Baldwin as she slept but instead she left with the gun. Was she the one who arranged for the guy to come in and attack Baldwin? Or was that her boss making sure that Baldwin was killed? Any thoughts?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wtherrell said:


> The girl who rescued Baldwin and then was supposed to kill her. She took the gun out of the drawer and I thought she was going to kill Baldwin as she slept but instead she left with the gun. Was she the one who arranged for the guy to come in and attack Baldwin? Or was that her boss making sure that Baldwin was killed? Any thoughts?


That was Baldwin's gun (when Baldwin went for it later she found it missing). The plan was for girlfriend to leave Baldwin alone and unarmed for the assassin.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Family said:


> I like your theories and hope they continue, but I thought you were going to power watch?


I thought so too but couldn't stay away...I had to know if Emily was dead or alive! 



Rob Helmerichs said:


> That was Baldwin's gun (when Baldwin went for it later she found it missing). The plan was for girlfriend to leave Baldwin alone and unarmed for the assassin.


Previous conversations led me to believe she has killed before. But maybe I misunderstood. She clearly couldn't kill THIS one and delegated it to someone else. A coward's way, for sure.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I was a little confused during this episode. Howard Alpha is at the hospital where Emily Prime is recovering from the OD. Emily Prime's boyfriend/husband/fiance comes in and basically tells HowardA to get lost. Next thing we see is HowardA taking EmilyP home, cooking her dinner, and staying overnight on her couch. Where was the boyfriend/husband/fiance this whole time? He seemed so threatened by Howard's presence at the hospital, but then he just abandons EmilyP and leaves her alone to let HowardA take care of her?


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That was Baldwin's gun (when Baldwin went for it later she found it missing). The plan was for girlfriend to leave Baldwin alone and unarmed for the assassin.


Kinda thought that might be it.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Just got Starz back from Optimum, and watched ep1-4 last night.

This show is really good, better than most on TV right now. Good to see that there will be 10 more episodes next year.

Edit: Couldn't remember where I saw "Aldrich" (Ulrich Thomsen) before. Finally resorted to Google; "Kai Proctor" (Banshee, Cinemax)


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Anubys said:


> Thoughts about Anna:
> 
> &#8230;
> 4. We know that Emily Prime has never crossed. But what if Emily Prime is actually Emily Alpha?
> ...


Do we _really_ know that Emily Prime has never crossed? (We only know that others think she never crossed). As part of the espionage, they could have traded places knowingly years ago.
Perhaps Emily traded places _during_ her pregnancy. (which would mean that Howard met his daughter Anna for the first time in ep4)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> Do we _really_ know that Emily Prime has never crossed? (We only know that others think she never crossed). As part of the espionage, they could have traded places knowingly years ago.


She seemed completely unaware of the procedures as she was going. So either she's never done it before or she's a VERY good actor. I suspect her hesitance and uncertainty was meant to show that she'd never done it before...


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> .... I suspect her hesitance and uncertainty was meant to show that she'd never done it before...


To us the viewers, or to those watching her?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> She seemed completely unaware of the procedures as she was going. So either she's never done it before or she's a VERY good actor. I suspect her hesitance and uncertainty was meant to show that she'd never done it before...


Plus she was trying to look around at everything, like it was her first time here.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Which is exactly what a trained spy would do to not attract attention. In "The Lost Art of Diplomacy" we learned that each side wants something from the other, so it's possible that each side's Floor 1 are aware of the switch (under my guess). 

Anyway, great show!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> To us the viewers, or to those watching her?


It felt like it was meant for us, but we shall see!


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Maybe I missed it, but do we know which side caused the event that created the parallel universe?


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I guess at the instant of occurrence each side both created the split.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I thought someone said (on the show or here, I don't recall) that it was one world until the split...

was it Howard Prime explaining to Howard Alpha?


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

That's correct, at the Concert Hall Howard Prime did say that to Howard Alpha (using his hands to explain the split), which made me think that "at the instant of occurrence each side both created the split". Not a good comment on my part.
Better for me to just enjoy the ride, thinking about the physics gives me a headache


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

OMG...those last 30 seconds just tore my heart to pieces...

so we now know it was the flu, it was in the 1990s, and 7% of the population was dead.

How many director positions were vacant 5 years ago? I have to think it wouldn't be that hard to find the mole with that kind of info...and I guess that woman with the short hair is the mole (?)


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

One reason I love this show: It has a Hitchcock feel with a Twilight Zone type story.

Even though you would never know it from her interactions, I am in the camp that the Emily's switched places at some point. Howard Prime's actions/reactions are the clue.

The show is too good to power watch!


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Another great episode.
I was surprised that the pandemic was in the '90's.
Has the current year been established? Might be 2018, but I was seeing indications in the graffiti that in might the 80's ("No Nukes") and the use of older computers. We're told Prime is technology behind (no Smartphones), so that might be the reason.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Family said:


> One reason I love this show: It has a Hitchcock feel with a Twilight Zone type story.
> 
> Even though you would never know it from her interactions, I am in the camp that the Emily's switched places at some point. Howard Prime's actions/reactions are the clue.
> 
> The show is too good to power watch!


Well, to be fair, all Howard Prime did was discover that both Emily(s) are bad. He had hoped that since Howard Alpha was such a good and devoted husband, that his Emily was also a good person. But he discovered that she cheated on Howard Alpha and therefore not any better than his Emily.

So, while I'm all for the "Emily switched sides" theory (since it's mine!), I didn't see this episodes' revelations about Emily Alpha as a clue to that.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

While you were first to theorize that Emily switched sides, IIRC, your theory is that she (Emily that's in a coma) was drugged and switched and did not know she switched. I think that she switched but did so knowingly so that each could spy on the other's side.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> While you were first to theorize that Emily switched sides, IIRC, your theory is that she (Emily that's in a coma) was drugged and switched and did not know she switched. I think that she switched but did so knowingly so that each could spy on the other's side.


Actually, he wasn't...in fact when it was first suggested he argued against it!


OhFiddle said:


> I had thought that the Emilys had switched at some point. I found it significant that early in the episode when she was taken to the hospital Howard mentioned that she had her appendix out as a child and several years ago had broken an elbow (if I recall correctly) and had pins inserted. That seemed like a significant detail to include and a way to tell them apart. But then I was confused by her reading the note she got from the church. Would she be reading it like that if she had written it herself? Plus the scene of her crossing over to the other side made it seem like her first time.





Anubys said:


> She did say it was her first time crossing. And she didn't know some of the finer details of going through the doors and stuff.


Then he came up with a theory that I still can't understand what he was talking about:


Anubys said:


> 4. We know that Emily Prime has never crossed. But what if Emily Prime is actually Emily Alpha?
> 
> stay with me: Emily Alpha miscarries. It's a late enough miscarriage that they knew the gender and picked out a name and bought a ton of stuff. In her grief, is it possible that she drugs Emily Prime and brings her to Alpha world (the 2 worlds have not yet diverged enough to notice), switches lives with her and has her daughter?
> 
> completely far-fetched since Emily Prime clearly carried to term...but maybe more twists and medical tech could make it happen (if Anna was a premie that was saved by the advanced medical tech, for example, while she could not be saved in Alpha world). I know it's crazy, but wouldn't that be huge?!


So apparently Emily Prime has never crossed, and yet is Emily Alpha who...crossed?

I have to agree with the guy who said it is completely far-fetched. You should listen to that guy more often!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm torn between these 2 responses:

1. Let me esplain. Nah. There is too much. Let me sum up

or,

2. I’ll explain. And I’ll use small words so you’ll be sure to understand, you warthog-faced buffoon

let's go with number 2! 

I disagree - and still disagree - that Emily Prime has crossed before. My theory is that Emily Alpha drugged her and switched lives with her without her knowing.

The reason I gave is grief over Anna.

And now the timeline supports this. The pandemic happened while Anna was a child. If the flu is the reason why the worlds diverged faster/exponentially, then the two Emilys and worlds may have been close enough to each other to not notice.

However, I now find very little possibility that this far-fetched theory is correct. With the new information that the departments in charge of the secret are very differently organized, Emily Prime would have noticed the changes immediately. So this theory is all but dead unless new information puts things back into place.

Also, Emily Prime noticed the change in Howard immediately; so she's very attuned to things (as a spy would). Of course, if my theory is correct, Emily Prime is actually Emily Alpha and...Oh no, I've gone cross eyed


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> Another great episode.
> I was surprised that the pandemic was in the '90's.
> Has the current year been established? Might be 2018, but I was seeing indications in the graffiti that in might the 80's ("No Nukes") and the use of older computers. We're told Prime is technology behind (no Smartphones), so that might be the reason.


Wasn't it the opposite? Prime was more advanced. They had the thin, translucent cell phones which were more advanced than what is here.

Sent from my Galaxy S8 using Tapatalk


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> How many director positions were vacant 5 years ago? I have to think it wouldn't be that hard to find the mole with that kind of info...and I guess that woman with the short hair is the mole (?)


Following up on this as I watch the show a second time. Not only was that director level position open 5 years ago, but it was opened by them killing someone (they "created the vacancy"). How hard is it to track who that is with that kind of information?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

oh...and how lucky is the husband in the safe house?!


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Anubys said:


> oh...and how lucky is the husband in the safe house?!


I don't know, I think it's a whole series of Henny Youngman one-liners just waiting to happen.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Wasn't it the opposite? Prime was more advanced. They had the thin, translucent cell phones which were more advanced than what is here.


No, Prime (if that's the "other" side) is not as advanced technologically. When someone from our side pulled out an iPhone, he quickly then put it away because he remembered he's not supposed to disclose the more advanced tech to people from the "other" side.


Anubys said:


> oh...and how lucky is the husband in the safe house?!


I don't know if I'd call it lucky. To me it seems like he would have to hear the same nags twice as many times.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Actually, he wasn't...in fact when it was first suggested he argued against it!
> 
> Then he came up with a theory that I still can't understand what he was talking about:
> 
> ...


My theory is that the Emilies switched knowingly years ago and during their pregnancy (but before they knew they were pregnant) as part of a plan to exchange information.
We only know that Emily Prime never crossed because she said so. Her reaction when she crossed could be the changes that have occurred since she left, or to not draw attention.
That Anna is really Howard Alpha's daughter is a twist that I would expect from this show


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> No, Prime (if that's the "other" side) is not as advanced technologically. When someone from our side pulled out an iPhone, he quickly then put it away because he remembered he's not supposed to disclose the more advanced tech to people from the "other" side.
> 
> I don't know if I'd call it lucky. To me it seems like he would have to hear the same nags twice as many times.


In the first episode, I thought they showed someone using a translucent cell phone?

I'll need to go back and look at it again sometime.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Prime Berlin certainly has a more futuristic skyline...


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Well, to be fair, all Howard Prime did was discover that both Emily(s) are bad. He had hoped that since Howard Alpha was such a good and devoted husband, that his Emily was also a good person. But he discovered that she cheated on Howard Alpha and therefore not any better than his Emily.
> 
> So, while I'm all for the "Emily switched sides" theory (since it's mine!), I didn't see this episodes' revelations about Emily Alpha as a clue to that.


There were a few clues during this episode that might indicate the Emily's switched.

One is that Howard Prime acted disappointed upon receiving negative information about our Emily, while our Howard seemed intrigued and curious from disturbing information about Emily Prime. Why would they react so differently? Could be Howard Prime knows who his wife really is, while our Howard does not.

When Howard Prime is standing over our Emily's lover he says, "You love her and she loves you." Why would he come to that sudden conclusion? That is the thinking of a jealous man.

Early in the episode Howard Prime says, "All these years with you and I'm still out in the cold." Our Emily is supposed to be just a source for Howard Prime. Why wouldn't he be "out in the cold" for much of her life and why would he care beyond the work. This also seemed personal.

Pope said, "It might surprise you what you don't know about that woman." Huh? I understand Emily Prime has the same DNA, but what would surprise our Howard about her. Emily Prime pulled a gun and looked willing to use it and our Howard didn't blink or give it a thought. In fact he became philosophical. What exactly would surprise him about that woman?

Not to mention Emily Prime seems to look at our Howard with school girl goo goo eyes when they are together.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Then again, all that could be both Howards simply seeing in their other Emily what they've lost...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

It actually made me a little sad when we found out that Emily was cheating on HowWimp.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think Howard Alpha is delusional about his Emily. I don't know how he has not figured out yet that she was a spy just like Emily Prime. 

I agree that Howard Prime's conclusion that Emily Alpha loves the professor seemed strange. It was clear that the professor loved her, but why assume that he was nothing more than a mark? But I do think that he was just hoping to find a better Emily and was disappointed that she was just the same as his own.

I have 2 other comments:

1. The 3 counterparts crossed over to take over the lives of 3 people (who should have been assassinated already, but not yet). How do they get away with it since they clearly won't cross back? This tells me that their mission has a finite timeline within their visa's allowance (a week, a month, whatever). But how did the "school" know that these 3 kids would grow up to be in a position that is important to their plan 15 years prior so they could recruit and train them? On a lighter note: why hide a gun for them to use to kill the guy in the apartment and not give them a silencer?

2. Seven percent of the population is dead. Why is the shopping center empty? if people don't go out for fear of getting infected, why build a sprawling shopping center that is multiple stories high?


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Seven percent of the population is dead. Why is the shopping center empty? if people don't go out for fear of getting infected, why build a sprawling shopping center that is multiple stories high?


Perhaps it was built in the 80's. The greater question is why is it still open?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Family said:


> Perhaps it was built in the 80's. The greater question is why is it still open?


Better yet, HOW is it open...even their 2 customers left without paying for their drinks!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Better yet, HOW is it open...even their 2 customers left without paying for their drinks!


That bar in the food court was the last place left open.

Our guys just put them out of business. The mall gets locked up tonight.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> 1. The 3 counterparts crossed over to take over the lives of 3 people (who should have been assassinated already, but not yet). How do they get away with it since they clearly won't cross back? This tells me that their mission has a finite timeline within their visa's allowance (a week, a month, whatever). But how did the "school" know that these 3 kids would grow up to be in a position that is important to their plan 15 years prior so they could recruit and train them? On a lighter note: why hide a gun for them to use to kill the guy in the apartment and not give them a silencer?


I'm sure you're right about them coming over to take the place of people who had been assassinated, but so far we haven't seen any evidence that the assassins do anything stealthily or subtly. Based on what we've seen, I'm not sure how Baldwin (or any of the others) could have killed someone and then covered it up and cleaned it up so completely that the new arrivals could take their place without anyone knowing they were killed.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm sure you're right about them coming over to take the place of people who had been assassinated, but so far we haven't seen any evidence that the assassins do anything stealthily or subtly. Based on what we've seen, I'm not sure how Baldwin (or any of the others) could have killed someone and then covered it up and cleaned it up so completely that the new arrivals could take their place without anyone knowing they were killed.


Although the whole point of killing Alpha Baldwin was so that the Alphites couldn't use her to gain information about Prime Baldwin, and we don't know exactly why Alpha Emily was marked for death but clearly it was not to set up replacement. If they were going for replacement, then presumably they'd use different tactics.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm sure you're right about them coming over to take the place of people who had been assassinated, but so far we haven't seen any evidence that the assassins do anything stealthily or subtly. Based on what we've seen, I'm not sure how Baldwin (or any of the others) could have killed someone and then covered it up and cleaned it up so completely that the new arrivals could take their place without anyone knowing they were killed.


Well, one of the 3 opened his folder and it was a picture of himself (plus maps and stuff). The guy with the beard asked about personal effects and that's when Shadow (I assume she's Shadow) told them they were not dead yet. So I'm assuming their counterparts were to be killed and they were to impersonate them and then execute whatever instructions were on the maps. But all that is an assumption on my part.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Well, one of the 3 opened his folder and it was a picture of himself (plus maps and stuff). The guy with the beard asked about personal effects and that's when Shadow (I assume she's Shadow) told them they were not dead yet. So I'm assuming their counterparts were to be killed and they were to impersonate them and then execute whatever instructions were on the maps. But all that is an assumption on my part.


Again, I'm sure you're right. But I'm just curious how they planned to carry out the assassinations and replace the people without anyone knowing that the original versions had been killed.


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

I thought the woman said the female who brought in the instructions was the daughter of someone.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Family said:


> Perhaps it was built in the 80's. The greater question is why is it still open?


Because it is on the side of the wall that has not adapted to free enterprise, in state controlled economies in Eastern Europe it was not uncommon to see open stores with nothing on the shelf.

(disregard and I apologise if I have mixed up my Alpha and Prime worlds, I am struggling to always separate them)


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

It’s not that one side represents East Germany and the other side represents West Germany. There has to be both an ex-East and ex-West Germany in both universes. When they show the architectural differences they go out their way to let you know you’re looking at the same street or the same skyline in two different universes.

Now you could come up with some wild scifi speculation that the wall itself was holding the universes together and when the wall came down it caused the two universes to split apart or at least the one universe to duplicate, but I don’t subscribe to that narrative.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

series5orpremier said:


> It's not that one side represents East Germany and the other side represents West Germany. There has to be both an ex-East and ex-West Germany in both universes. When they show the architectural differences they go out their way to let you know you're looking at the same street or the same skyline in two different universes.
> 
> Now you could come up with some wild scifi speculation that the wall itself was holding the universes together and when the wall came down it caused the two universes to split apart or at least the one universe to duplicate, but I don't subscribe to that narrative.


Its more a way of identifying to real stuff. Star Trek had Klingons=Russians, Romulans=Chinese, Vulcans=Israelis, the Federation=Nato to some extent.
Obviously Here we have the magic transport that looks like the wall with visas and passports. We have the old dingy Berlin that looks like East Berlin, and the modern Berlin that looks like West Berlin.

The real meat of the show is somewhat Sliding Doors. How would our life be if we chose a different path for ourselves. I can think of 6 or 7 important moments in my life that completely changed it and I wonder where I would be I chose differently.
Example: in my senior year of high school some friends asked if I wanted to go down with them and fill out college applications. I did not grow up thinking I could do that. What If that moment did not happen.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

But the dingy East Berlin looking place has a government and culture that acts more western, and the new glass wall place has a government and culture that acts more eastern. I actually think the Old European look architecture looks well kept and much, much better than the glass towers. It looks like it has deeper character and culture.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Here we are, six episodes into this show that takes place in Berlin, and I never once (until the last few posts in this thread) even thought about the similarities with the Berlin Wall and East/West Germany. While I don't think the choice of location is a coincidence, I don't think the Alpha and Prime sides are supposed to represent the former East and West sides of Germany, or capitalism vs communism, etc.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

series5orpremier said:


> It's not that one side represents East Germany and the other side represents West Germany. *There has to be both an ex-East and ex-West Germany in both universes*. When they show the architectural differences they go out their way to let you know you're looking at the same street or the same skyline in two different universes.


The split happened 30 years ago - that is before the fall of the Berlin Wall and the reunification of Germany, before the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact.

One side still acts like old style East Germany - the cinema advertisement telling people to spy on their neighbours is pure Stasi (Staatssicherheitsdienst, State Security Service)

The use of Bulgarian contract assassins in the attempt to kill Harold reflects allegations of how Warsaw Pact intelligence services used Bulgarians.

East Germany used modern looking architecture as a symbol of Communist power, see the Fernsehturm.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

There’s still this timeline confusion over the universe duplicating vs. splitting, unless they’re going to ignore Baldwin’s apparent age looking younger than fortyish and that she was supposedly still unified with Nadia when their father died.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

pgogborn said:


> East Germany used modern looking architecture as a symbol of Communist power, see the Fernsehturm.


So that's the landmark they made a point of showing (in episode two) is standing in both Alpha and Prime. (Built in 1969). It looks like for Alpha they used a real present day camera shot and for Prime they embellished it with additional computer generated buildings and coloring.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

pgogborn said:


> ...(disregard and I apologise if I have mixed up my Alpha and Prime worlds, I am struggling to always separate them)


Someone here posted a good way to remember: *P*rime = *P*andemic ; *A*lpha = *A*pple (iPhone)


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

series5orpremier said:


> There's still this timeline confusion over the universe duplicating vs. splitting, unless they're going to ignore Baldwin's apparent age looking younger than fortyish and that she was supposedly still unified with Nadia when their father died.


They share the same memories before the split (when the father died)? I think I see your point. Need to think about this.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Tony_T said:


> They share the same memories before the split (when the father died)? I think I see your point. Need to think about this.


All we know is Howard Prime said according to the math we know they shared the same childhood experiences (he could have been lying) and when Baldwin came face-to-face with Nadia, Baldwin believed they shared the same experience of watching their father die but Nadia didn't clearly acknowledge it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Family said:


> I thought the woman said the female who brought in the instructions was the daughter of someone.


No. She said she was a year behind her in school (but that they'd never met). However, "she" talked a lot about her. I assume that the "she" is the instructor or handler who taught them everything and I assume used the Shadow as an example to follow.

They all snapped to attention with a look of reverence like they were meeting royalty. This Shadow Lady is clearly a legend in their school.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> Someone here posted a good way to remember: *P*rime = *P*andemic ; *A*lpha = *A*pple (iPhone)


One of the problems that I am having is in the Alpha office all the desks have CRT monitors, not TFT monitors.

Neither Alpha or Prime have developed the same as our world. *So far* we may identify more with Alpha than totalitarian Prime but 2018 Alpha is not 2018 Our World.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

For accuracy: the redhead said she was a year behind their handler. I'm assuming that meant at "the school".

I don't know what to make of the scene showing Mausi regularly sleeping at work and deep at work. Howard Prime has never had much respect for him but now they are showing him as a hound who has caught a smell? this is the same guy who dismissed a trusted defector 5 years ago when she told him that there is a director-level or higher mole in their organization?


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

zalusky said:


> The real meat of the show is somewhat Sliding Doors. How would our life be if we chose a different path for ourselves. I can think of 6 or 7 important moments in my life that completely changed it and I wonder where I would be I chose differently.


That it what makes the show different and is a big reason why I like it so much.

But the meat is also John LeCarre / British style Cold War spy fiction, the shared and then divergent paths take the classic mole hunt up to a new whole level even though it lacks a George Smiley.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Another great episode with episode six. I just finished watching it. I didn't realize that Starz made the episodes available so early in the day. I also watched the first season 3 episode of ash vs evil dead.

I'm really enjoying counterpart. This is now two great shows that I watch on Starz.

Sent from my Tab S 10.5 using Tapatalk


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Watching Alpha Howard beat Howard Prime's lie detector test was hilarious...

"Maybe I just don't know?"


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

As I was watching Baldwin stalk Carol in the grocery store, I wondered to myself how come she has so much time on her hand and never needs to be in the office...

So between the party and the fact that the mole couldn't be anyone but one person (and that person was a man), the surprise was a little anticlimactic as I suspect everyone figured it out before they showed her...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Anubys said:


> As I was watching Baldwin stalk Carol in the grocery store, I wondered to myself how come she has so much time on her hand and never needs to be in the office...
> 
> So between the party and the fact that the mole couldn't be anyone but one person (and that person was a man), the surprise was a little anticlimactic as I suspect everyone figured it out before they showed her...


I didn't realize it until the reveal.

And I see they did show a bunch of cell phones from the other side being used in today's episode. But they looked like phones we had from ten or fifteen years ago.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Excellent episode.
It was done so well that at the exact time that Quale suspected his wife (the coffee cup stain) was when I knew his wife was Shadow and a second later he opened the door to her.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

So the plan for the Prime side is revenge? to kill everyone like the Alpha side tried to do with the flu? (all denials aside...I'm sure the Alpha side did it!).

Why? why would one side try to kill the other? I hope we eventually get an answer to the fundamental question: "why was this kept a secret?" what is so bad about having 2 worlds instead of 1? why try to kill one another?

It's not like 1 Earth is white people and the other is black people or something stupid like that...they talk about "us" versus "them" as if it's a racial thing...but it isn't, so... why?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I suppose it could be as simple as that's how governments reflexively think..keeping things a secret. And once it was decided that it should be a secret, it was put into the realm of the worst parts of government, and things just went downhill from there...


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## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> Another great episode with episode six. I just finished watching it. I didn't realize that Starz made the episodes available so early in the day. I also watched the first season 3 episode of ash vs evil dead.
> 
> I'm really enjoying counterpart. This is now two great shows that I watch on Starz.
> 
> Sent from my Tab S 10.5 using Tapatalk


Starz also has a very good series called _The Missing. _Two seasons, so far. Both were very good.

We watch Counterpart and The Missing in closed caption. Those darn foreign accents...


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I hope we eventually get an answer to the fundamental question: "why was this kept a secret?" what is so bad about having 2 worlds instead of 1? why try to kill one another?
> 
> It's not like 1 Earth is white people and the other is black people or something stupid like that...they talk about "us" versus "them" as if it's a racial thing...but it isn't, so... why?


Politics went on as normal. The split occured in Berlin during the Cold War when there was a wall betwen East and West and each side had a large number of nuclear missiles aimed to kill the other.

Aboard Star Treks' Discovery Admiral Cornwall, Lt. Commander Stamets and Ambassador Sarek further explain:
"We cannot risk the knowledge of this alternative universe leaving the Discovery" Cornwell declares.
"It would be &#8230; too many possibilities," Stamets explains to a disbelieving Michael Burnham. 
"Indeed," Sarek concurs. "Our people have suffered terrible losses. What would you do if your dead wife, your lost child, your murdered parents might be alive on the other side, and that technology exists for you to see them again? This knowledge must be buried."


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Must be more to it.
They could just have sealed off the corridor otherwise.
Each side has something the other wants, as shown in "The Lost Art of Diplomacy" episode


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I did like how they were going to sell the new "Prince" CD to the other side where Prince had died.

Maybe that Tupac hologram show we have here is really a live show from _our_ other side


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> Must be more to it.
> They could just have sealed off the corridor otherwise.
> Each side has something the other wants, as shown in "The Lost Art of Diplomacy" episode


yes, there is far too much information to be gleaned from the other side to close off access. Like the huge oil fields mentioned in that episode. That the other side had discovered but our side had not.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

But all the differences happened because of the divergence; which was precipitated by keeping the whole thing a secret in the first place and starting a plague to kill the other side...

...oh no...I've gone cross eyes again...


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

In the last scene of the last episode, Quale realizes that his wife has access to his safe by the coffee stain on the paperwork he took home to the carbon copy in the safe, but i'm not making the connection. How did this tip him off?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Tony_T said:


> In the last scene of the last episode, Quale realizes that his wife has access to his safe by the coffee stain on the paperwork he took home to the carbon copy in the safe, but i'm not making the connection. How did this tip him off?


I wasn't sure about that either. But everyone here in this thread seems to have instantly made the connection.

In fact, after the reveal at the end of the episode, I had to rewind back to the scene with her and Baldwin in the store to see if that was the same person.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I’d have to go back and watch the last couple of episodes to see if this all jibes, but I assumed they emphasized the coffee stain because he had a file of stolen documents (intercepted by Emily Alpha and recovered by Howard Prime?). He noticed a stolen document photocopy also had the coffee stain so that it could have only been stolen from his own study in his own home.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

DevdogAZ said:


> I wasn't sure about that either. But everyone here in this thread seems to have instantly made the connection.


Quale instantly made the connection (so we did), and it was the coffee stain that made him check the copy in the safe, I just didn't see how this tipped him off. Maybe we'll see Sunday.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

series5orpremier said:


> ... He noticed a stolen document photocopy also had the coffee stain so that it could have only been stolen from his own study in his own home.


That sounds right.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

And now Quayle’s father-in-law is coming after him thinking that he’s the mole and probably doesn’t realize nor would want to believe that his own daughter has been replaced by her other.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I forgot about her father. She's also probably getting intel from him also. Great show.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

And I just realized that it's possible that Quale now only knows that his wife is the mole, but not that she's been killed and replaced by her other!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> Quale instantly made the connection (so we did), and it was the coffee stain that made him check the copy in the safe, I just didn't see how this tipped him off. Maybe we'll see Sunday.


The coffee/tea cup had an unusual shape. It didn't have a typical round shape to it. So the stain was distinct.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Correction: It’s Aldrich who is coming after Quayle. Quayle’s father-in-law is a different character (diplomat). Quayle’s father-in-law recommended Quayle for his position, which makes it suspicious that he could be in on the conspiracy.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

aaronwt said:


> The coffee/tea cup had an unusual shape. It didn't have a typical round shape to it. So the stain was distinct.


Yes. But the connection I didn't make was where did the copy Quale was reading come from? At the end of the ep, he just placed it on the desk, and I didn't know from where. series5orpremier cleared it up for me.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

series5orpremier said:


> ..Quayle's father-in-law recommended Quayle for his position, which makes it suspicious that he could be in on the conspiracy.


Not necessarily (I was thinking that also).
First I was thinking that Quale's wife, "Shadow" killed and replaced his wife, but now I realize that the Other's "project" name is The School, so more likely that the diplomat's daughter was killed when so young that the diplomat could not realize his daughter was replaced by her other. Then she could have married anyone, and then convince her dad to give him a job, then when the high level position "became available", convinced her dad again to place him in the open position.

I like a show that keeps me guessing days after airing
(and this is why I don't like to binge)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Howard Prime took a lot of Emily Alpha's documents when he found them with her lover. Quayle was looking at Emily's documents and noticed the stain...

I do not agree that Shadow was replaced at a young age. The School puts out spies; which I assume that sort of training and indoctrination takes a long time and would produce an adult; not a child.

The way I imagine it happened is they replaced the daughter of someone prominent and important (which is how they knew to train his Prime daughter from a young age). Once she was ready, they did the switch (say, 6 years prior to now). Whether she was already married to Quayle or not is not relevant. She would put pressure on her father to give an important job to her husband; and they create the perfect job by assassinating the man whose job they wanted Quayle to have.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Anubys said:


> &#8230;I do not agree that Shadow was replaced at a young age. The School puts out spies; which I assume that sort of training and indoctrination takes a long time and would produce an adult; not a child.
> 
> The way I imagine it happened is they replaced the daughter of someone prominent and important (which is how they knew to train his Prime daughter from a young age). Once she was ready, they did the switch (say, 6 years prior to now). Whether she was already married to Quayle or not is not relevant. She would put pressure on her father to give an important job to her husband; and they create the perfect job by assassinating the man whose job they wanted Quayle to have.


Basically what I said, except for the time of replacement.
Harder for her to fool the "others" husband, so it is relevant if it occurred after marriage. But, agree that age isn't as relevant to fool the Dad (diplomat) who most likely spent a lot of time away from home. Not sure if the dad is still married, as they could not fool her mother (and most likely killed her).
A few ways how this could unfold&#8230;.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

series5orpremier said:


> I'd have to go back and watch the last couple of episodes to see if this all jibes, but I assumed they emphasized the coffee stain because he had a file of stolen documents (intercepted by Emily Alpha and recovered by Howard Prime?). He noticed a stolen document photocopy also had the coffee stain so that it could have only been stolen from his own study in his own home.


You're correct.
I took another look, and at 10:42:
*Quayle*: "_What's this?"_
*Howard*: "_This is what Emily was working on,_ s_tolen internal documents taken from your office, passed to the outside."
&#8230;.
*Quayle: *"What about Baldwin?"
*Howard: *"This is more important, you find out where those came from"_
(Quayle puts the documents, about 3 pages, in his jacket pocket - These pages are what we see at the end at 51:20 when Quayle sees the coffee stain)

In any Network show we would have had a "flashback" _in slow-mo_ at 51:20 to 10:42 to ensure the viewers made the connection. -- I'm glad that they don't do that on Counterpart, and I hate when they do it on other shows, more enjoyable to figure it out (with help here!)


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Because everyone is focusing on someone who was put into a position in that department about five years ago to replace a person that died, all the outward suspicion will be on Quayle. And it seems pretty cut-and-dried that Quayle will be killed (or otherwise incapacitated) before he can warn anyone that his wife is the mole. Although that would kind of eliminate some of the possible suspense later on of him trying to trap his wife without her knowing that he's onto her. So hopefully they don't go the obvious route here.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Aldrich now believes Quayle is the mole, but not Howard. Quayle will probably go to Howard with the evidence he has on his wife (Shadow), and it will be up to Howard to convince Aldrich to believe Quayle.

Can't wait for Sunday


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> A few ways how this could unfold&#8230;.


For example Clare could be working for our side in Counter Intelligence (both Emilies concealed from their husbands they were working in Counter Intelligence).

Clare's father could be doing deals for his own personal financial advantage and involving his daughter.

Clare could be working for the other side out of ideological conviction because our side launched the deadly 'flu attack on the other.

etc. etc.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Aldrich now believes Quayle is the mole, but not Howard. Quayle will probably go to Howard with the evidence he has on his wife (Shadow), and it will be up to Howard to convince Aldrich to believe Quayle.
> 
> Can't wait for Sunday


Completely agree...it has to be the way it goes. When you find a mole, you don't expose them until you've used them to pass along false information and discovering the opponent's plan. So I hope that is what happens.

I am worried about the security guy, though. There is some agenda there that we don't know yet. He ordered Alpha Baldwin killed for no reason. We thought it was because she saw Prime Baldwin but now we know that he doesn't have a problem with a Prime meeting an Alpha and even living together. Something else is up.

But you have to admire the long con by the Pope. He had to identify Carol Alpha early, train her Prime, and insert her 15 years later (or 10?). That means that he had to identify that her father would be important a decade or two earlier. Did he also help her father rise up the ranks? did they give him stuff (tech, other stuff to trade) just so he rises up as a great negotiator? IOW, did they have a hand in how successful he is; either unwittingly or (drum role) as an accomplice?

The long term plan is only successful if the right children are identified years in advance of needing them and helping the right people grow up to be important and successful...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I am worried about the security guy, though. There is some agenda there that we don't know yet. He ordered Alpha Baldwin killed for no reason. We thought it was because she saw Prime Baldwin but now we know that he doesn't have a problem with a Prime meeting an Alpha and even living together. Something else is up.


Well, the reason that was given in the show is that they didn't want the Alphites to be able to get information about Baldwin from Nadia...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, the reason that was given in the show is that they didn't want the Alphites to be able to get information about Baldwin from Nadia...


Well, I would call it the *excuse* they gave is that. There are a ton of different ways you can accomplish that goal without killing her. Not just killing her, but doing so in public...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Well, I would call it the *excuse* they gave is that. There are a ton of different ways you can accomplish that goal without killing her. Not just killing her, but doing so in public...


A ton? Really? I'm not coming up with a single one...

Granted, they botched the killing (and it was portrayed as being botched). But if you believe you can glean information about one Other from another ("Other" is kind of an awkward word for what they are, isn't it? You'd think they'd come up with something better. Something other than Other), then really the only foolproof way to stop that from happening is to remove the other Other. I suppose in theory they could remove the other Other to the other world, but since this was an unsanctioned operation that would probably not be feasible, both in execution and in outcome (since the other Other would be able to talk on the other world).


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Granted, they botched the killing (and it was portrayed as being botched). But if you believe you can glean information about one Other from another ("Other" is kind of an awkward word for what they are, isn't it? You'd think they'd come up with something better. Something other than Other), then really the only foolproof way to stop that from happening is to remove the other Other. I suppose in theory they could remove the other Other to the other world, but since this was an unsanctioned operation that would probably not be feasible, both in execution and in outcome (since the other Other would be able to talk on the other world).


Huh? This needs to be explained some Other way.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> &#8230;.("Other" is kind of an awkward word for what they are, isn't it? You'd think they'd come up with something better. Something other than Other)


I like 'Other', that's how I would describe my,.. er,&#8230; my Other.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Would your "other" sibling be a brother from your other mother?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> Would your "other" sibling be a brother from your other mother?


Well, no, he'd be your Other from anOther mother. Duh.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> A ton? Really? I'm not coming up with a single one...


OK, since it's something you can count, a "ton" isn't the right description...how about "a lot"? But I will revise to "a few".

But aside from grammar, let me help you with the lack of imagination!

1. You can arrest Baldwin Alpha.
2. You can arrest Baldwin Prime.
3. You can kill Baldwin Alpha.
4. You can arrest both and keep them separate.

There are a few, not a lot, of combinations where you can keep them apart and not kill Alpha. He seemed in a rush to kill her.

Oh, and just in case nobody noticed: I'm not sure he killed her. The shot was too high over the heart for instant death. So I wonder if she's alive somewhere. How do you like THEM apples?

so, without further ado:

5. Pretend to assassinate Baldwin Alpha and keep her sequestered in a safe house!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> 1. You can arrest Baldwin Alpha.
> 2. You can arrest Baldwin Prime.
> 3. You can kill Baldwin Alpha.
> 4. You can arrest both and keep them separate.
> 5. Pretend to assassinate Baldwin Alpha and keep her sequestered in a safe house!


OK, those are five solutions. Number 3 is what they did. None of the other four accomplish their goal (to prevent the Alphites from learning something about Baldwin from Nadia). They can't arrest Nadia because they have no jurisdiction in Alpha World. Arresting Baldwin would be silly, since she's the agent they're trying to protect. Arresting both is twice as silly, because then you have both problems. And pretending to kill Nadia doesn't really solve anything, because they then have to find a place to keep her, hope and pray she never escapes, and...what? What would the rebel Primeys possible have to gain from keeping Nadia prisoner?

So please, help me with my lack of imagination! I'm still waiting...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, those are five solutions. Number 3 is what they did. None of the other four accomplish their goal (to prevent the Alphites from learning something about Baldwin from Nadia). They can't arrest Nadia because they have no jurisdiction in Alpha World. Arresting Baldwin would be silly, since she's the agent they're trying to protect. Arresting both is twice as silly, because then you have both problems. And pretending to kill Nadia doesn't really solve anything, because they then have to find a place to keep her, hope and pray she never escapes, and...what? What would the rebel Primeys possible have to gain from keeping Nadia prisoner?
> 
> So please, help me with my lack of imagination! I'm still waiting...


Imagine I gave you a good answer...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Another good episode today. it was nice to get some back story from the other side.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I get the feeling Prime created the weaponized flu virus, it escaped over there accidentally, and they blamed Alpha. In which case, probably almost nobody over there knows the truth; they just believe what they've been told.

I just don't get the feeling Alpha, which has been portrayed mostly as a bunch of bureaucratic idiots, has the ruthlessness necessary to come up with such a scheme. And the reason Prime does believe it is because they know they'd do it themselves, so of course Alpha would do it as well (people always seem to believe the worst of themselves in others).

Nice that they've finally pinned down more or less what happened...first the split, the two worlds moving mostly in tandem for nine years, then the Prime flu followed by a more substantial divergence.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Watching ep7 now.
What I like about this show is that I have to pay attention...
...and that it has my attention.

I also like the soundtrack.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You'd think they'd come up with something better. Something other than Other





Spoiler



Shadow maybe


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Tony_T said:


> You're correct.
> I took another look, and at 10:42:
> *Quayle*: "_What's this?"_
> *Howard*: "_This is what Emily was working on,_ s_tolen internal documents taken from your office, passed to the outside."
> ...


And these documents were in this episodes opening sequence. Not sure if they were in all the others.

Edit: they're in ep2 and most likely all.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I get the feeling Prime created the weaponized flu virus, it escaped over there accidentally, and they blamed Alpha. In which case, probably almost nobody over there knows the truth; they just believe what they've been told.


For either side to have been responsible for the virus would need some reason for the two worlds to have significant differences in the macro world for one side to have let the virus out and not the other. But the virus is itself is the cause of the sides being different in the macro world, not an effect. (If it were a result, we would have the loose end of the missing cause for the sides being different.) The mutation of a virus is (often) the result of the ionizing radiation that is the result of a quantum mechanical process, which reasonably would have differing outcomes on the two sides.

For this reason I think the virus just happened, as viruses do, and Alpha was lucky while Prime was not.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> For either side to have been responsible for the virus would need some reason for the two worlds to have significant differences in the macro world for one side to have let the virus out and not the other. But the virus is itself is the cause of the sides being different in the macro world, not an effect. (If it were a result, we would have the loose end of the missing cause for the sides being different.) The mutation of a virus is (often) the result of the ionizing radiation that is the result of a quantum mechanical process, which reasonably would have differing outcomes on the two sides.
> 
> For this reason I think the virus just happened, as viruses do, and Alpha was lucky while Prime was not.


Although at the core (i.e., the Berlin stations where the transfers happen), the differences would grow much more quickly since people would be exposed to the different worlds and their Others/Shadows. All it would take it one person on one side to freak out to get the ball rolling, and although the ball wouldn't roll far (since they were keeping the two worlds a secret), it could roll pretty hard within that little ecosystem...


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

They never said the worlds were identical before the flu, just more or less similar on a macro scale. The flu just accelerated the divergence. So people who were alive before the “split” (discovery of the crossing in 1987) remember life events before the “split” identically but events between the “split” and the flu can still vary on a micro scale. Given Nadia’s confused reaction to Baldwin I wouldn’t be surprised if Baldwin’s alpha father is still alive on the alpha side.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Howard's gonna be pissed that Quayle let Claire know that he knows she's Shadow (but she knew he was up to something when she realized he lied about the cigars to get her out of the apartment).

At the final scene in the ep it looked like Quayle was believing her lie that things changed when she had the baby (that she named after her childhood crush, Spenser)

Looks like her broken legs will be used by her to prove to her Dad that she's not an other (Dad and Mom discussed what happened at the party). Claire will most likely be convincing Dad that Peter is the Mole.

I was surprised that Claire wasn't switched as a child as it did look like they were going to do so early in the episode.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

And I doubt we’ve seen the last of the original Spencer.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> I was surprised that Claire wasn't switched as a child as it did look like they were going to do so early in the episode.


Realistically, you can't expect a kid to keep that kind of secret. The years of training (and growing up) were necessary, I think.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Tony_T said:


> Howard's gonna be pissed that Quayle let Claire know that he knows she's Shadow (but she knew he was up to something when she realized he lied about the cigars to get her out of the apartment).


That's what pissed me off (about Quayle). He had one job, take advantage of a burned Shadow. And he forking blows it! He's an idiot.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Realistically, you can't expect a kid to keep that kind of secret. The years of training (and growing up) were necessary, I think.


They did with Spencer, he was in her class and sent to the other side ("&#8230;_on a journey you might make some day_")

Aldus and the teacher, Mira, were discussing it, that's why I thought they were going to do the switch as a child.
Aldus: _"Her Fathers next in line to run Diplomacy"_
Mira: _"She's not ready"_
Aldus: _"We still have time"_
Mira: _"If we make waste of this opportunity, it's on us, not the girl"_
Aldus: _"We'll do it right"_

And then they tested Claire's knowledge of her Other, so, they were leading us (well, _me_) to believe that she would be switched young, so when Claire was then shown as a Teacher, I was surprised (and it was interesting that she changed the Gazelle to a Zebra in her discussion with Ethel, so her memory as a child might not be that good after all).

I liked that they did it this way&#8230;


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> They did with Spencer, he was in her class and sent to the other side ("&#8230;_on a journey you might make some day_")


Well, they SAID he was sent to the other side. But I suspected he was simply disposed of because he was interfering with Clare's development (sent to another class, perhaps).


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

astrohip said:


> That's what pissed me off (about Quayle). He had one job, take advantage of a burned Shadow. And he forking blows it! He's an idiot.


Quayle's not long for this world if Howard can't prove Claire is an "Other" before Claire convinces Dad that Peter is.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, they SAID he was sent to the other side. But I suspected he was simply disposed of because he was interfering with Clare's development (sent to another class, perhaps).


I sorta assumed that's what happened also. Since he "was sent to the other side" directly after the incident with Clare, it was too spot-on timing-wise to be anything but elimination. In one form or another.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

series5orpremier said:


> They never said the worlds were identical before the flu, just more or less similar on a macro scale. The flu just accelerated the divergence. So people who were alive before the "split" (discovery of the crossing in 1987) remember life events before the "split" identically but events between the "split" and the flu can still vary on a micro scale. Given Nadia's confused reaction to Baldwin *I wouldn't be surprised if Baldwin's alpha father is still alive on the alpha side.*


Except we saw Nadia(Baldwin Alpha)'s funeral and they made a point of showing that no family members were there to get up and speak about her, so an old girlfriend had to do it.


astrohip said:


> That's what pissed me off (about Quayle). He had one job, take advantage of a burned Shadow. And he forking blows it! He's an idiot.


Alcohol makes people do idiotic things.

I was very surprised that the Prime side sent Clare over as a virgin. I would think that someone trained all her life to be a spy would also be trained in using seduction and sex as a weapon. But maybe they were monitoring Claire Alpha and knew she was a virgin and wanted to keep her as "authentic" as possible. The fact that Clare Alpha decided to give it up in that short window between Clare Prime making the crossing and Clare Prime taking over was just bad luck.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, they SAID he was sent to the other side. But I suspected he was simply disposed of because he was interfering with Clare's development (sent to another class, perhaps).


I didn't get that impression, but now that you mention it, I suspect that you are correct.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> But maybe they were monitoring Claire Alpha and knew she was a virgin and wanted to keep her as "authentic" as possible. The fact that Clare Alpha decided to give it up in that short window between Clare Prime making the crossing and Clare Prime taking over was just bad luck.


Exactly that.


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

No wonder everyone on the Prime side seems so testy. No bacon (or cigarettes).


----------



## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

I'm confused. Was it Howard alpha or Howard prime who knocked on the door and asked Ricky Fowler if he knew anything about the missing turf?
What?
Oh, wait.
Sometimes I doze off.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

series5orpremier said:


> They never said the worlds were identical before the flu, just more or less similar on a macro scale.


Actually, they said the world made a copy of itself. So identical up to 1987 is absolutely the ONLY interpretation. It was one world and then a copy of it was created somehow because of whatever experiment was going on.



astrohip said:


> That's what pissed me off (about Quayle). He had one job, take advantage of a burned Shadow. And he forking blows it! He's an idiot.


Howard Prime should kill him for this. But I really like that they went away from the standard "find mole, use mole for your own purposes until you kill him". To change it to make her a sympathetic figure whose loyalties are now her child is an excellent twist and raises this show up a couple of notches in excellence for me.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, they SAID he was sent to the other side. But I suspected he was simply disposed of because he was interfering with Clare's development (sent to another class, perhaps).


Completely agree! (I hope you were sitting down and your heart is still good!) 

The way they did it led me to believe that Spencer is no more.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

So let me get this straight:

Security is so tight at the crossing that visas are issued and a picture of the person crossing is taken every single time.

So this woman crosses and never returns and nobody looks for her? because if they looked for her, they would instantly notice that she looks exactly like a high ranking person's daughter* and is also engaged to the deputy director; who quickly becomes a director.

For this to go unnoticed is beyond unbelievable. Even if they show us later how they got away with it, I am not happy. Answering that question should have been part of this episode.

* and how in the world isn't every single person crossing not investigated on the other side? oh, person x is crossing from Prime world? let's go investigate who person x Alpha is, what they are doing, and if there is any security risk associated with his Prime being on our world. How is that not a SOP? 

This hole in the story is absolutely unacceptable. I always figured there would be some sort of tunnel or secret passage from one world to the other. Because if there isn't, all this spy stuff is impossible to execute.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Actually, they said the world made a copy of itself. So identical up to 1987 is absolutely the ONLY interpretation. It was one world and then a copy of it was created somehow because of whatever experiment was going on.


He said "They never said the worlds were identical before the flu, just more or less similar on a macro scale"...i.e., during the nine-year span between the split and the flu.


----------



## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Anubys said:


> Actually, they said the world made a copy of itself. So identical up to 1987 is absolutely the ONLY interpretation. It was one world and then a copy of it was created somehow because of whatever experiment was going on.


But the flu didn't occur until 1996. Between 1987 and 1996 the worlds were more or less similar in the big picture. I thought they added more ambiguity by saying The Crossing was discovered in 1987. That leaves no way of knowing for sure when the copy was made - it could have been ad infinitum for all we know but I agree I'll assume it's close to 1987 because the worlds started out similar to one another. If they coexisted for a long time prior to that there would have already been plenty of divergence due to the randomness already discussed. Unless they're going to tell us the only thing that drives divergence is interaction between the two worlds and that could have only started when The Crossing was discovered in 1987.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Anubys said:


> So let me get this straight:
> 
> Security is so tight at the crossing that visas are issued and a picture of the person crossing is taken every single time.
> 
> ...


IIRC, they mentioned in the early episodes that there are defectors that are being sought out to be returned. So, when Claire didn't return (and her dead shadow's fingers and teeth removed, so when/if the body turns up it won't be identified), she would be a fugitive that they would be actively looking for.

And these are diplomatic crossings, so they won't investigate evey single person on the other side (though they will spy on some). Each side wants something from the other.

I don't see a plot hole here.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Howard Prime should kill him for this. But I really like that they went away from the standard "find mole, use mole for your own purposes until you kill him". To change it to make her a sympathetic figure whose loyalties are now her child is an excellent twist and raises this show up a couple of notches in excellence for me.


She may be loyal to her child, but didn't we also see her leading the underground group of assassins? She is not a good person for Alpha side.



Anubys said:


> So let me get this straight:
> 
> Security is so tight at the crossing that visas are issued and a picture of the person crossing is taken every single time.
> 
> ...


This comes close to something that bugs me more and more as the story deepens. Why the fork don't they simply explode the wormhole and end this BS? Neither side trusts the other. But unlike our real world Spy vs Spy, in their world you can get rid of the other side... close the door!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> This comes close to something that bugs me more and more as the story deepens. Why the fork don't they simply explode the wormhole and end this BS? Neither side trusts the other. But unlike our real world Spy vs Spy, in their world you can get rid of the other side... close the door!


Assuming that's possible...there could be any number of techno-babble reasons why it wouldn't be.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He said "They never said the worlds were identical before the flu, just more or less similar on a macro scale"...i.e., during the nine-year span between the split and the flu.


You're right...sorry...it somehow registered in my mind that he said before the split, not before the flu...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

astrohip said:


> She may be loyal to her child, but didn't we also see her leading the underground group of assassins? She is not a good person for Alpha side.


I think they are going for a much more complex character here...We have seen her reluctant to perform her duties but doing what she has to do in the end (e.g. attempting to kill Baldwin)...if for no other reason than Pope would kill her and her baby if she didn't continue to do her job. Basically, she's caught in the middle with no way out.

One thing she could've done is to perform her mission and go back home with her baby, for example. But now that she has been exposed, that plan is out the window...

She certainly has been hesitant and more introspective than the other operatives we have seen. When she killed the butcher, she was cold and heartless; but that could've been because there were others with her and she had to act like that lest they doubt her.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Why did Clare have to be conscious when they broke her legs?

Evil Clare's hit squad didn't seem to know it was a hit squad and why did she have t assemble the hit squad herself? Seems like the Shadow hierarchy should have bad guy henchmen already prepared. Maybe Clare to Insurgent Hit Squad 101 in the school.


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I thought this backstory episode on Clare was one of the best of the season so far. Loved it.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Why did Clare have to be conscious when they broke her legs?
> 
> Evil Clare's hit squad didn't seem to know it was a hit squad and why did she have t assemble the hit squad herself? Seems like the Shadow hierarchy should have bad guy henchmen already prepared. Maybe Clare to Insurgent Hit Squad 101 in the school.


I guess so she experiences the same pain as Clare Alpha felt when she broke her legs...the memory of the pain would be the same...bat S crazy logic but it shows you the complete dedication of the people running the School...

I, too, thought the hit squad thing was sloppy. She didn't even go with them to make sure they followed her instructions! She just hired these guys and doesn't know them at all. Yet she trusted them to finish the job correctly and not get caught (or take the easy way out and just bury her or something)...that was extremely sloppy.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

astrohip said:


> She may be loyal to her child, but didn't we also see her leading the underground group of assassins? She is not a good person for Alpha side.
> 
> This comes close to something that bugs me more and more as the story deepens. Why the fork don't they simply explode the wormhole and end this BS? Neither side trusts the other. But unlike our real world Spy vs Spy, in their world you can get rid of the other side... close the door!


Having access to the other side is too important. The information they can get is far too important to close the crossing.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

The greatest scientific discovery in the 20th century would not be shut down (blown up, walled off, etc).
Only a show with no imagination would do that (Agents of SHIELD)


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I also thought it was a bit odd thatt they emphasized Claire shouldn't have friends but they put her in a school where it was inevitable that she would have at least one close friend.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> So let me get this straight:
> 
> Security is so tight at the crossing that visas are issued and a picture of the person crossing is taken every single time.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this. Seems like there should be much more security on the people crossing. Having the broken legs would have been a way for her to "prove" that she's not Clare Prime if anyone came looking. But now that's she's admitted the truth to Quayle, that's out the window.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

And only to Quayle.
There is nothing to connect her to being the mole.

These are Diplomatic crossings. As in the real world, they have a lot of latitude. 

There is strong security as shown in the first minutes of Ep1


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Having the broken legs would have been a way for her to "prove" that she's not Clare Prime if anyone came looking. But now that's she's admitted the truth to Quayle, that's out the window.


I don't understand this...they broke Prime's legs to match Alpha's broken legs...so both have the same "evidence"...I assume the doctors had x-rays of Alpha's breaks and matched it so they are as close to identical as possible...

Edit: oh, I see what you mean...sorry...but I think the broken legs were more to protect against an accidental discovery than to escape close scrutiny by professionals who suspect her and are interrogating her...


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Doesn't have to be accidental discovery. There is always a risk that the School gets compromised and Students identified.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I don't understand this...they broke Prime's legs to match Alpha's broken legs...so both have the same "evidence"...I assume the doctors had x-rays of Alpha's breaks and matched it so they are as close to identical as possible...
> 
> Edit: oh, I see what you mean...sorry...but I think the broken legs were more to protect against an accidental discovery than to escape close scrutiny by professionals who suspect her and are interrogating her...


I was following the logic from your previous post. They had Clare Prime's name and picture and knew she had crossed. They would have known that she hadn't returned. They should have fairly easily been able to figure out who her doppelganger was on the Alpha side. So then if they started investigating and Prime had already disposed of Alpha, Prime could have "proved" she was Alpha with x-rays.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I was following the logic from your previous post. They had Clare Prime's name and picture and knew she had crossed. They would have known that she hadn't returned. They should have fairly easily been able to figure out who her doppelganger was on the Alpha side. So then if they started investigating and Prime had already disposed of Alpha, Prime could have "proved" she was Alpha with x-rays.


She crossed under a fake name (Claudia Amin). They showed her photo being taken on the Prime side before she crossed, but not on the Alpha side after she crossed (not that it means they didn't take her picture there too).

All they would need is for someone working for The School to swap out that Polaroid, and even if the authorities are looking for Claudia Amin, they'll never be looking for Clare.

One downside of all the technology at the Office of Interchange being perpetually stuck in 1987 is that they wouldn't have very advanced record-keeping or identity-tracking technology available to them.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

getbak said:


> One downside of all the technology at the Office of Interchange being perpetually stuck in 1987 is that they wouldn't have very advanced record-keeping or identity-tracking technology available to them.


Who says the Office of Interchange is perpetually stuck in 1987 technology-wise?


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Who says the Office of Interchange is perpetually stuck in 1987 technology-wise?


Everything we've seen there.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Who says the Office of Interchange is perpetually stuck in 1987 technology-wise?


No idea what year they seem to be stuck at, but I did notice all the CRT monitors in the offices. It's like you stepped back in time when they show the offices.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Quayle has an iMac


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Is there a good episode recap website for this show? I get my primes and alphas mixed up.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Just re-watch with QuickMODE 
(or just re-watch the "previously on" at the start of each ep)


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Is there a good episode recap website for this show? I get my primes and alphas mixed up.


I found these recaps pretty good and in depth: Episodes


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Anubys said:


> So let me get this straight:
> 
> Security is so tight at the crossing that visas are issued and a picture of the person crossing is taken every single time.
> 
> ...


Perhaps they have already answered it when they showed Shaw brutalizing a couple of crossing guards, instead of enforcing tight security some of the guards take money for illegally move things across the border.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Who says the Office of Interchange is perpetually stuck in 1987 technology-wise?





getbak said:


> *Everything we've seen there.*





aaronwt said:


> No idea what year they seem to be stuck at, but I did notice all the CRT monitors in the offices. It's like you stepped back in time when they show the offices.


Seen AND heard  Dot matrix printers but no laser printers


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Might have missed it, but don't remember anyone bringing up the possibility Clare becomes a double spy; sticking with her family, and joining Quayle to get to the bottom of what really happened. 

She had reservations on killing Baldwin and the emotions of being a parent must be be stronger than the memories of losing her parents 15 - 20 years ago. Plus she has to realize she's not working for "good guys." 

To continue the series will there will be unexpected alliances. I expect this will be one.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

My guess is that Quayle will be in the "Black Room" Sunday.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Cainebj said:


> I thought this backstory episode on Clare was one of the best of the season so far. Loved it.


It was a phenomenal episode. The idea that they would train these kids from such a young age to eventually assume the identity of their alpha selves is a truly fascinating concept.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Having the broken legs would have been a way for her to "prove" that she's not Clare Prime if anyone came looking. But now that's she's admitted the truth to Quayle, that's out the window.


They put too much emphasis on the broken legs for it not to come into play at some point. I'm assuming she will use the broken legs to prove that she is the "real" Clare, and the one who will get screwed because of it is Quayle. They already suspect that he is the mole, and I'm guessing they would never imagine that the other side would go to such great lengths to hide the true identities of their operatives.

Quayle messed up big time by letting his emotions get the better of him. Once he knew Clare was the mole, he needed to pretend that everything was still hunky dory so he could catch her red handed with solid evidence. Now it's going to come down to his word versus hers, and I would imagine she's covered her tracks very well.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gweempose said:


> They put too much emphasis on the broken legs for it not to come into play at some point. I'm assuming she will use the broken legs to prove that she is the "real" Clare, and the one who will get screwed because of it is Quayle. They already suspect that he is the mole, and I'm guessing they would never imagine that the other side would go to such great lengths to hide the true identities of their operatives.


Not necessarily. The broken legs - even if never again mentioned - served their purpose by showing us the lengths the fanatics went through to get to this point. Even to the point of breaking the legs without putting her under for the procedure. There is no questioning their commitment to the cause. They may come back to it and it may play a role as you say; but it would not detract at all if they never come back into play.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

The broken legs will be back, my guess, this Sunday.
There was no reason for her Dad and Mom to be discussing this at Quayle's birthday party. My guess _now_ is that this showed that the parents have a vivid memory of the event that Claire will not know about and this will be what saves Quayle (My initial though was that Claire would use her broken legs to show that she's the "real" Claire (and get Quayle set-up as the mole), but I now think that this is too obvious, and that this deception (the broken legs) will instead be her downfall (though I think she'll survive by escaping to the Embassy).


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Did they ever mention how the other Claire broke her legs


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

The "other" Claire had them broken by a surgeon, but I believe you are referring to the murdered Alpha Claire who broke both legs skiing as a child.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

zalusky said:


> Did they ever mention how the other Claire broke her legs


Skiing accident


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> The "other" Claire had them broken by a surgeon, but I believe you are referring to the murdered Alpha Claire who broke both legs skiing as a child.


They're both "other" Claires...Alpha Claire is Prime Clair's other, and vice versa.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I agree, but the show has said that Prime is the "other" in the opening of e7 when it showed young Claire identifying her dead parents from the flu with the Text Heading:
BERLIN, 1997
THE OTHER SIDE​(I didn't think is was necessary for that)


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Tony_T said:


> I agree, but the show has said that Prime is the "other" in the opening of e7 when it showed young Claire identifying her dead parents from the flu with the Text Heading:
> BERLIN, 1997
> THE OTHER SIDE​(I didn't think is was necessary for that)


They clearly want the viewer to identify with Alpha as if it is the "real" world and Prime is the "fake". Consequently, we are supposed to be rooting for Alpaha and against Prime.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I'm not sure why so many of you think that it is in Prime Claire's interest for Quayle to take the fall. She was supposed to kill herself if found out (even though it appears she was not willing to do that). She is of no more value to the cause if she's caught than if Quayle is blamed as the source of the leak. Either way, she will no longer have access to sensitive information. The only development that makes sense is that, as suggested by someone earlier in this thread, Claire is ready to change teams and will start working with Quayle to send false information back to her side.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> The broken legs will be back, my guess, this Sunday.
> There was no reason for her Dad and Mom to be discussing this at Quayle's birthday party. My guess _now_ is that this showed that the parents have a vivid memory of the event that Claire will not know about and this will be what saves Quayle (My initial though was that Claire would use her broken legs to show that she's the "real" Claire (and get Quayle set-up as the mole), but I now think that this is too obvious, and that this deception (the broken legs) will instead be her downfall (though I think she'll survive by escaping to the Embassy).


She has been found out. her choices are now to play along with her husband, the 2 Howards, ...etc. or to bolt.

Which means she will play along. But which side is she going to string along? her husband's side or her original side? IOW, to be a double agent or a double double agent?


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Anubys said:


> She has been found out. her choices are now to play along with her husband, the 2 Howards, ...etc. or to bolt.
> 
> Which means she will play along. But which side is she going to string along? her husband's side or her original side? IOW, to be a double agent or a double double agent?


I almost edited my previous post to suggest that the real drama now will be figuring out if she's a double or triple agent but you beat me to it.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I think that Prime is very close to carrying out their plan (though we don't yet know what their plan is). Claire needs to keep Alpha focused on Quayle. I think that she will try to get Dad to put Quayle in the Black Room, but will fail (somehow due to the broken legs backstory)


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> She has been found out. her choices are now to play along with her husband, the 2 Howards, ...etc. or to bolt.
> 
> Which means she will play along. But which side is she going to string along? her husband's side or her original side? IOW, to be a double agent or a double double agent?


I think she joins the "good guys", meaning our Howard, not Pope, and Quayle.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Anubys said:


> She has been found out. her choices are now to play along with her husband, the 2 Howards, ...etc. or to bolt.
> 
> Which means she will play along. But which side is she going to string along? her husband's side or her original side? IOW, to be a double agent or a double double agent?


One of the complications is that there are three sides and she and Pope are agents for the third side. The School is a privately financed operation which is not on the same side as the other sides Emily and Howard.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Tonights episode ("_Love the Lie_") streaming now on the Starz App&#8230;


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Tony_T said:


> Tonights episode ("_Love the Lie_") streaming now on the Starz App&#8230;


And it's great. If Simmons gets an Emmy nod, this episode is the reason why.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I'm not sure how I felt about this ep.
Two more episodes left this season (a 2-parter)
It will be interesting to see how these next 2 episodes
will set-up Season 2.

Since the Starz App is not available in Tivo, I'll hold back my discussions till Monday.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> And it's great. If Simmons gets an Emmy nod, this episode is the reason why.


(I'll discuss it now, since Starz has made the episode available.)

That was an astonishing scene.

But I think the brilliance of the acting overshadows the brilliance of the writing, which if you think about it is equally impressive. Both the script and the performance of how Alpha "wins" not by becoming Prime, but by remaining Alpha, and how Prime comes to realize this.

It's an interesting play that Quayle is trying. On the one hand, Howard is a perfect choice, since Alpha's increased confidence will register with Aldrich (who already believe that duplicates are truly identical, given his own experience). But how on Earth does Quayle expect anybody to believe that Howard has access to Quayle's secrets? I suspect Clare has come up with a plan, since this seems to be beyond Quayle's capabilities (or imagination)...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm not reading the last few posts since I have not watched the episode yet.

But I just had an epiphany about how the broken legs are going to come into play again: Clare Alpha's body was disposed of and fingerprints, teeth, ...etc. were removed so she becomes a Jane Doe. But when they start digging and go into unidentified females murdered around a certain time frame, they are sure to come across a body with the telltale broken legs.

I'm putting this out here now...remember who said it first!


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

This was my least favorite episode (except for the excellent scene with Howard Alpha and Prime). 
Didn't like how quickly both sides were able to set up a private meeting between Howard Alpha and Howard Prime.
I don't see how Quayle can convince Aldrich that Howard is the one that set him up. Isn't everything we've seen occurred over a week or two with Quayle only meeting Howard not much longer before that?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> I don't see how Quayle can convince Aldrich that Howard is the one that set him up. Isn't everything we've seen occurred over a week or two with Quayle only meeting Howard not much longer before that?


Yes, that's why I suspect Clare is up to something. Because she might be smart enough to come up with something, whereas Quayle clearly isn't! 

I can't imagine what she might have come up with, but I'm willing to give Anubys more fodder and assume the writers are more imaginative than me.


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Somehow maybe Alpha's Emily factors into this. We don't know exactly what she does. Her accident might have been "Clare related." Maybe the guy Howard met everyday was more than just a civilian. And Quayle/Clare don't know Emily's waking up, which throws another wrench in.

Perhaps Howard really is a mole without realizing it.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Family said:


> Perhaps Howard really is a mole without realizing it.


You mean before the show started? He couldn't have been; he didn't have access to any good information (or even know that it existed!). What could Prime have learned from him?


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You mean before the show started? He couldn't have been; he didn't have access to any good information (or even know that it existed!). What could Prime have learned from him?


Of course he could have. From maybe his wife.

He could have been set up to pass information at work without even knowing. Or at least set up enough as a backup plan to look bad in case of a situation like this.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You mean before the show started? He couldn't have been; he didn't have access to any good information (or even know that it existed!). What could Prime have learned from him?


He knew his wife was a high level intelligence officer.
We know she took classified documents out of the office and did not secure them in a safe.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pgogborn said:


> He knew his wife was a high level intelligence officer.
> We know she took classified documents out of the office and did not secure them in a safe.


But he didn't have a clue that any of this was going on. I can see him being a patsy, I guess. But no way in hell was he an actual mole!


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But he didn't have a clue that any of this was going on. I can see him being a patsy, I guess. But no way in hell was he an actual mole!


Last week I would have said there was no way he knew what was going on with Emily; now we learn he knew she was cheating.

Does a man who knows his wife is with another man read her poetry every night?

Perhaps this Howard is not as he appears.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The beauty of the plan is that everyone will be predisposed to believe that Howard Alpha is a master spy. I don't know how they're going to pin it on him (sorry, Rob, the writers have more imagination than me as well!) but it doesn't have to be too tight...everyone will see what they want to see and Howard is in deep doo doo.

I love how - to the last - Howard Prime was still a dick and didn't tell Alpha about Emily waking up.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

pgogborn said:


> *He knew his wife was a high level intelligence officer.*
> We know she took classified documents out of the office and did not secure them in a safe.


IIRC, he said she was a clerk (before the coma)
And the documents she had, she hid at the "go guy's" apartment.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Quayle, you snake!

Barista girl is too dumb to live.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

What's the timeline from when Howard Alpha first met Howard Prime?
IIRC, the current 'visa' was for a week (not sure how many days left) and the one before for a day, so is it only about a week?
Is each episode one day? (looks like it)


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But he didn't have a clue that any of this was going on.
> ...


547
00:45:14,468 --> 00:45:16,147
I know my wife.

548
00:45:16,304 --> 00:45:19,040
What? I'm-I'm sorry. I don't...
I don't think I caught that.

549
00:45:21,296 --> 00:45:22,985
She's a-a spy, Howard.

550
00:45:23,010 --> 00:45:25,298
She's a ****ing fraud,
just like my wife.
...
559
00:45:43,224 --> 00:45:44,439
- I know.
...
563
00:45:49,191 --> 00:45:50,992
Goddamn it, I said I know!

564
00:45:51,130 --> 00:45:53,112
I ****ing know!

565
00:46:02,003 --> 00:46:03,743
All those years.

566
00:46:05,961 --> 00:46:08,279
The late nights,
the-the... the cover stories.

567
00:46:08,304 --> 00:46:12,208
You think a man doesn't...
question things?

568
00:46:14,916 --> 00:46:17,662
I knew... I knew everything about her.

569
00:46:18,821 --> 00:46:21,755
Not the... not the job, details, but...

570
00:46:23,024 --> 00:46:25,259
about the lies.

571
00:46:26,815 --> 00:46:30,819
I knew about... about Andrei, sure.

572
00:46:32,821 --> 00:46:36,124
Because he wasn't the first.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> IIRC, he said she was a clerk (before the coma)
> And the documents she had, she hid at the "go guy's" apartment.


He knew she was more than a clerk, the difference between him and the other Harold was how he reacted when she did not fold him in.

He knew she was cheating on with the go guy. He knew she had been cheating om him with multiple people over many years.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pgogborn said:


> 547
> 00:45:14,468 --> 00:45:16,147
> I know my wife.
> 
> ...


None of which even hints that he knew about the other world, much less that he was a mole for them.

I still say absolutely no way is he a mole. That would be a shark-jumping moment. That would retroactively ruined all the good will this show has built up.

No. Way.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> Tonights episode ("_Love the Lie_") streaming now on the Starz App&#8230;


Yes. i love how it they don't wait until the show airs at night. How the Starz episodes are available early in the day to watch.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> None of which even hints that he knew about the other world, much less that he was a mole for them.
> 
> I still say absolutely no way is he a mole. That would be a shark-jumping moment. That would retroactively ruined all the good will this show has built up.
> 
> No. Way.


Does any one watch the two or three minute sof content at the end of the show. Where they talk to the showrunner etc.? They talked about this.

Quayle is backed into a corner. And is basically fighting for his life. And family. So he would say anything to try and get out of it.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> None of which even hints that he knew about the other world, much less that he was a mole for them.
> 
> I still say absolutely no way is he a mole. That would be a shark-jumping moment. That would retroactively ruined all the good will this show has built up.
> 
> No. Way.


I agree up to a point. I think Howard Alpha is not a mole. He's just a guy who thought his wife was a serial cheater. Everything she did could be explained as cheating, not as spying.

But if he ends up being a mole, I don't think it's shark-jumping if it's done right. He played his role brilliantly if he is a mole; why is this so bad and so wrong?

So, while I agree the greatness of the show is the huge divergence for the two Howards, I don't know that it would break the show if we find out that it wasn't real. Certainly, the show will evolve to show us how the two of them converge towards each other as one becomes softer and the other more hardened (I didn't use "harder" to avoid all the snickers from the perverts).


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

We *know* Claire is the mole.
To have her convince Quayle to pin the leaks on Howard Silk (instead of her) so that he doesn't lose his daughter, job and lifestyle and then it turns out that he really is also a mole would be sloppy writing (and Counterpart has the best TV writing I've seen in awhile (although the last last Ep was my least favorite))

I think that what will happen is that Quayle's failure to turn in Claire will allow the other side to carry out their mission to attack in retaliation to the swine flu Pandemic - which will be the set-up for next season.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

But if it is a chemical attack of some sort, then Claire, Quayle, and Spencer are just as vulnerable. So while they will try to pin it on Howard, they will also try to stop it.

The cat is out of the bag, anyway, since they know the names of the 3 operatives. So regardless of who the mole is (as far as the 2 worlds are concerned), they do know who is carrying out the plan; even if they have no clue what the plan is.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Anubys said:


> &#8230;The cat is out of the bag, anyway, since *they know the names of the 3 operatives*. So regardless of who the mole is (as far as the 2 worlds are concerned), they do know who is carrying out the plan; even if they have no clue what the plan is.


Howard Prime is the only one who knows
(Emily: _"He' the only one we can trust"_).
So, if Aldrich believes Quayle, he won't believe Howard 
(who he never really trusted).


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Howard Prime is the only one who knows
> (Emily: _"He' the only one we can trust"_).


Well, Howard Alpha also knows. And if anyone is the mole, it's Alpha; not Prime.

Alpha is the target. So they will want him back before they do anything.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

If Howard Alpha is the mole (impossible), then he would have given Prime incorrect information on the planned attack (the names if the 3 operatives).


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Anubys said:


> Well, Howard Alpha also knows. And if anyone is the mole, it's Alpha; not Prime.
> 
> *Alpha is the target*. So they will want him back before they do anything.


Quayle is trying to the leaks on Prime, not Alpha.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I can’t remember, is Aldrich aware that the Howard’s switched places?


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Quayle is trying to the leaks on Prime, not Alpha.


That doesn't make sense. They know the leaks have been going on for five years and Quayle admitted that they came from his office.

Accusing Howard at all doesn't really make sense, but if it was him, it would have had to be Alpha.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

cherry ghost said:


> I can't remember, is Aldrich aware that the Howard's switched places?


Yes


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

getbak said:


> That doesn't make sense. They know the leaks have been going on for five years and Quayle admitted that they came from his office.
> 
> Accusing Howard at all doesn't really make sense, but if it was him, it would have had to be Alpha.


I thought that Quayle was going to say that when Prime crossed over that he (Prime) manipulated him and the leaks were recent. 
Replayed the end of last night, and Quayle does say Howard Silk has been manipulating him "for years", so I see now that Quayle is going to try to make Alpha the mole.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

getbak said:


> That doesn't make sense. They know the leaks have been going on for five years and Quayle admitted that they came from his office.
> 
> Accusing Howard at all doesn't really make sense, but if it was him, it would have had to be Alpha.


Quayle is grasping. He doesn't have a choice. He either admits his wife is a mole, and then his life and his sons life is over. Or he does whatever he can to deflect, and place the blame somewhere else.

I would think most people would choose to protect their family and their self. Which is what Quayle is doing.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> Quayle is grasping. He doesn't have a choice. He either admits his wife is a mode, and then his life and his sons life is over. Or he does whatever he can to deflect, and place the blame somewhere else.


Or his wife has come up with a Very Cunning Plan...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I love how - to the last - Howard Prime was still a dick and didn't tell Alpha about Emily waking up.


Well, at that point he couldn't risk telling Alpha that Emily Alpha had come out of the coma, because then Alpha would immediately want to end the exchange and that would interfere with Prime's investigation. So I don't think he was necessarily being a dick. He didn't really have a choice.


cheesesteak said:


> Barista girl is too dumb to live.


What did she do that was dumb?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> Quayle is grasping. He doesn't have a choice. He either admits his wife is a mole, and then his life *and his sons *life is over. Or he does whatever he can to deflect, and place the blame somewhere else.
> 
> I would think most people would choose to protect their family and their self. Which is what Quayle is doing.


Spencer is a girl, right?


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Spencer is a girl, right?


Spencer is the name that Clare gave to her girl.

It is also the name of the boy at the School who disappeared when he was getting too close to Clare.

(recycling that name could be considered a breach of security by Clare - although I doubt the mole hunters will consider looking for a Spencer)


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> So I don't think he was necessarily being a dick.


Oh, he was totally being a dick!


DevdogAZ said:


> He didn't really have a choice.


There I agree with you. But he was still being a dick. You could almost taste the spiteful glee in his voice at not telling him; that was his only sense of victory, no matter how petty, in the entire conversation.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Oh, he was totally being a dick!
> 
> There I agree with you. But he was still being a dick. You could almost taste the spiteful glee in his voice at not telling him; that was his only sense of victory, no matter how petty, in the entire conversation.


Oh, I agree that Prime was still taking joy in not telling Alpha about his wife waking up. I was simply trying to point out that not telling Alpha was kind of a given, whether it was malicious or not.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Spencer is a girl, right?





pgogborn said:


> Spencer is the name that Clare gave to her girl.
> 
> It is also the name of the boy at the School who disappeared when he was getting too close to Clare.
> 
> (recycling that name could be considered a breach of security by Clare - although I doubt the mole hunters will consider looking for a Spencer)



yes Girl. I was thinking boy because of the other Spencer when she was young.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Oh, he was totally


Agreed.

And Howard Prime is correct that Alpha is becoming more like him.


----------



## jdfs (Oct 21, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Who says the Office of Interchange is perpetually stuck in 1987 technology-wise?


They kept the technology at the Office of Interchange the same as it was at the split. This way no new technology is leaked to other side. Just like them hiding the iPhone in the earlier episode.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jdfs said:


> They kept the technology at the Office of Interchange the same as it was at the split. This way no new technology is leaked to other side. Just like them hiding the iPhone in the earlier episode.


Which is ridiculous since people come and go between the 2 worlds all the time. No amount of security would stop people from finding these things out. The analogy I would make is trying to hide an elephant in an apartment; they are bound to see it!


----------



## jdfs (Oct 21, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Which is ridiculous since people come and go between the 2 worlds all the time. No amount of security would stop people from finding these things out. The analogy I would make is trying to hide an elephant in an apartment; they are bound to see it!


I think most travel is between the embassies. But they even make reference to the ridiculousness of it at the negotiation. Still that is the reasoning of it. We do the same thing in here in real life, we make things classified that we know all our enemies already know or have. Still we keep up the charade.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Everything is currency and it’s about value in negotiation. So if you learned something in the “other” world it’s stolen or tampered and that has value in these back and forth sparring sessions. But if it is discovered in the "go-between", well that’s different or so it would be argued.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

That scene with the two Howards was one of the best written and acted things I've seen in a long time. I'll be shocked if Simmons doesn't win an Emmy for this show.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

In reality, it's completely unbelievable that one side would have technology like an iPhone and the other side not. The only way that's realistic is if the product has just barely been released. Because once it's been out for a little while, a spy from one side would steal an example and take it back to the other side to be reverse engineered. So the whole idea of one side being more technologically advanced than the other just makes no sense.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'll add to that that having a CRT only makes you slower. They would not be able to make a Surface Pro because they saw someone use it, I dare to make a definitive statement that they need to do just a little reverse engineering on it to "steal" the tech!


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> In reality, it's completely unbelievable that one side would have technology like an iPhone and the other side not.


The other side is a totalitarian state - it is supressing things such as smart phones, teh internet etc. because they give individual power/freedom to citizens



DevdogAZ said:


> So the whole idea of one side being more technologically advanced than the other just makes no sense.


The sides are differently technologically advanced in accordance with local priorities. In a trade the other side gave our side HIV treatments and the mapping of the human genome. The hospital treatment room for the other side Emily was more advanced than the one for our side Emily.

The other side is greener - the lighting in the other side is often more advanced than our side's tungstan.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> In reality, it's completely unbelievable that one side would have technology like an iPhone and the other side not. The only way that's realistic is if the product has just barely been released. Because once it's been out for a little while, a spy from one side would steal an example and take it back to the other side to be reverse engineered. So the whole idea of one side being more technologically advanced than the other just makes no sense.


Why is that unbelievable? It's very believable. Especially if you factor in that 500 million people died from their Flu epidemic. Resources would have been pushed toward solving flu/health issues instead of other things. Then you factor in hundreds of millions of people dying. Many of them could have been the key to more advanced technology being developed.

Not to mention their Flu epidemic changed their culture. They don't shake hands or congregate in large groups. So you wouldn't have a selfie mentality that is on this side. So less need for what cell phones are used for over here.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Why is that unbelievable? It's very believable. Especially if you factor in that 500 million people died from their Flu epidemic. Resources would have been pushed toward solving flu/health issues instead of other things. Then you factor in hundreds of millions of people dying. Many of them could have been the key to more advanced technology being developed.
> 
> Not to mention their Flu epidemic changed their culture. They don't shake hands or congregate in large groups. So you wouldn't have a selfie mentality that is on this side. So less need for what cell phones are used for over here.


All the more reason for smart phones in their culture if people are more insular and spend less time socializing in person.

I'm not questioning the reality that one side would devote resources to different things and therefore technology would proceed at different speeds. I'm questioning the fact that once one side develops something, especially something so universally useful and small enough to fit in a pocket, there's ZERO chance that a spy from the other side wouldn't steal some examples and take them back to be reverse engineered.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I noticed E10 wasn’t showing up in my To Do List or Guide. It looks like there’s going to be a week off and it won’t air until 4/1.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

So…. Quayle really is an idiot.
His plan to divert attention to Howard, and then have Howard come to his home in order to kill Howard (apparently in self defense) could not work for long (as was noted here) since the mole was in place for years (and Quayle admitted that it would only buy him some time). I don't understand why he didn't just turn in Claire.

I was expecting an explosion at the end (maybe at the start of ep10).
With all that occurred at the end, I was surprised that Aldrich held back from retrieving 'the other' since he was 'on the border'.
What could be the possible recrimination if he had done so, or killed him there?

…and why was the Diplomat (Claire's other's father) spared?
Why do they want to keep him alive?
What is Pope's end-game?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> With all that occurred at the end, I was surprised that Aldrich held back from retrieving 'the other' since he was 'on the border'.
> What could be the possible recrimination if he had done so, or killed him there?


I got the vague impression that the problem might not be diplomatic, but rather physical (i.e., maybe they literally CAN'T kill him there for some reason)...


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> With all that occurred at the end, I was surprised that Aldrich held back from retrieving 'the other' since he was 'on the border'.
> What could be the possible recrimination if he had done so, or killed him there?


Even the East German border guards stopped shooting, did not attempt a drag back once somebody had successfully fled across the wall/wire/river into West Berlin.



Tony_T said:


> &#8230;and why was the Diplomat (Claire's other's father) spared?
> Why do they want to keep him alive?
> What is Pope's end-game?


Maybe Clare gave an order not to in a moment of sentimental weakness. Maybe they wanted a high level witness to tell people what happened. Maybe Pope's end game is a complete closure of the border.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

A few thoughts:

1. Have I proposed yet that Nadia Prime may still be alive? That shot wasn't fatal as far I could see.

2. I think the 3 killers did not know that Clare has been found out. Therefore, her father is still an asset and would not be killed (Peter's value would disappear once his FIL's support is gone).

3. Clare told Peter that Spencer would be in trouble if they found out about Clare being the mole. So he is protecting his kid. Also, he is not very smart. 

4. I like that they used BMWs for almost any car shot; except when they needed to crash a car (they used an Audi). Notice also that the BMW had no trouble chasing the Audi despite all the crazy driving Peter did 

5. I, too, was surprised it wasn't a huge bomb or chemical attack (like the flu attack). The entire goal was for the guy without the glasses to make it to no man's land. He didn't even bother to wear a bullet-proof vest. I wonder if he would have killed himself in that spot had he made it there uninjured. This is too weird, though. Yes, border soldiers are very much aware that they cannot cross the line for any reason whatsoever. But if there is something there, it's easy enough for a diplomatic agreement on who goes and gets it. So either there is a science fiction reason for this move or it's simply to incite an interworld incident. Of course, if an incident is the goal, then why try to reach no man's land?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh...and why did Howard Alpha run away? he had the gun and an easy enough explanation (which he did later). He just needed to hide the money and the gun first?


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I am wondering if scientifically only one person can walk across at a time and they have effectively shut down the portal.

It also makes me wonder about the talk chambers we saw the Howards use last week and where they are positioned.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Have I proposed yet that Nadia Prime may still be alive? That shot wasn't fatal as far I could see.


Have I proposed yet that you're nuts?  (That sounds like the kind of theory that somebody comes up with because they can, not because it makes a lick of sense...)


Anubys said:


> The entire goal was for the guy without the glasses to make it to no man's land.


Why do you say that? We don't know what they intended to do if they hadn't been stopped by the Alpha Brigade and Howard Prime. And we don't know the consequences of what they did do.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

…and Baldwin (a very effective assassin) will be trying to kill Howard Prime and Emily Alpha.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Anubys said:


> The entire goal was for the guy without the glasses to make it to no man's land. He didn't even bother to wear a bullet-proof vest.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why do you say that? We don't know what they intended to do if they hadn't been stopped by the Alpha Brigade and Howard Prime. And we don't know the consequences of what they did do.


We do know that they intended to 'open the border' by locking out controls in the computer room. "Glasses' was waiting at the door for it to be opened in order to make it to the border. I though he had something strapped to his body, so I was expecting an explosion at the end.

Could be that 'glasses' does have a bomb, and this will be used as leverage for Pope in discussions with the Diplomat (who was intentionally left unharmed by the shooters)


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why do you say that? We don't know what they intended to do if they hadn't been stopped by the Alpha Brigade and Howard Prime. And we don't know the consequences of what they did do.


It was made absolutely clear that an essential pre-planned part of the mission was one of the team should go downstairs and cross the border after the attack.

In the meantime are the two Howards meeting in the middle? The other Howard has secreted a stash of cash to be given to Emily and he stopped to help a wounded man.

Peter is so incompetent Clare is still alive and has been taken to a hospital - which opens the door to Anubys theory about the leg X-Rays.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

zalusky said:


> I am wondering if scientifically only one person can walk across at a time and they have effectively shut down the portal.


That's a very interesting theory...but I guess they could always throw a hook and reel him in...

One absolutely HUGE detail is the amount of packages being exchanged between the two worlds...we were worried before about one world getting ONE smartphone from the other side...hell, they could be shipping thousands of telephones (and anything else) between them...that was completely unexpected and changes the dynamics between the 2 worlds completely.

The only hint of anything going back and forth was the diplomatic pouch and the tea that was given as a gift to Alice. Now that tea thing seems almost like a mistake. The x-ray was only looking for weapons or bombs, not tea or anything else.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Have I proposed yet that you're nuts?  (That sounds like the kind of theory that somebody comes up with because they can, not because it makes a lick of sense...)
> 
> Why do you say that? We don't know what they intended to do if they hadn't been stopped by the Alpha Brigade and Howard Prime. And we don't know the consequences of what they did do.


The only proposals I recall is that I am a genius. Let's stick with that!

I say that because no other goal was achievable. He had to shoot his way past at least a couple of dozen armed guards (who conveniently left their barricade behind bulletproof glass so they could get shot...but I digress) wearing nothing but a nice wool pullover. There was no way the plan would have expected him to get through. So the goal must have been to get to the title of the episode (No Man's Land).


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

He was talking about your theory that Nadia was still alive as the shot may not have been fatal. 
However that would mean that her burial was faked. There is nothing that would explain Alpha doing this.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> He was talking about your theory that Nadia was still alive as the shot may not have been fatal.
> However that would mean that her burial was faked. There is nothing that would explain Alpha doing this.


I know...I responded to that and then went to the more important issue 

But as far as Nadia, if Aldrich wanted to keep her hidden for whatever reason, he would order a non-fatal shot, take her away, and then give some body for everyone to bury at the funeral. It's very easy to do something like that. I don't have a theory as to WHY. I'm simply entertaining the idea that it is possible.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Not at all possible.
This is not TWD


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> One absolutely HUGE detail is the amount of packages being exchanged between the two worlds...we were worried before about one world getting ONE smartphone from the other side...hell, they could be shipping thousands of telephones (and anything else) between them...that was completely unexpected and changes the dynamics between the 2 worlds completely.


I didn't get the sense that the packages were going from one world to the other. I just thought it was a large internal mail sorting facility. It's a huge government building, so it's entirely plausible that a ton of parcels would come through there on a daily basis.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Oh...and why did Howard Alpha run away? he had the gun and an easy enough explanation (which he did later). He just needed to hide the money and the gun first?


I think you meant Howard Prime. Wasn't it Howard Prime who grabbed the money and ran after getting tipped off by Quayle that Aldrich was coming for him? Of course he would run. That way he can control when and how he interacts with Aldrich. If he had waited, he may have been killed or jailed without any opportunity to tell his side of the story.


gweempose said:


> I didn't get the sense that the packages were going from one world to the other. I just thought it was a large internal mail sorting facility. It's a huge government building, so it's entirely plausible that a ton of parcels would be received there on a daily basis.


That was my impression as well. There was nothing to indicate the packages were coming from the other side.

As for the motive of the attack, all of the people killed were on the Alpha side. Theoretically, Alpha could completely cover up the attack and Prime would never know about it. So I have to believe that the whole point was for these agents to carry out an attack on the Alpha side and push through to then get killed by Prime guards as they tried to come through. Then it would appear to Prime that Alpha was trying to start a war. Apparently Pope wants Prime to either declare war on Alpha or close the portal. Making the Prime government think that Alpha is the aggressors would accomplish that.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Looks like the show is skipping a week before coming back for the second part of the season finale.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gweempose said:


> I didn't get the sense that the packages were going from one world to the other. I just thought it was a large internal mail sorting facility. It's a huge government building, so it's entirely plausible that a ton of parcels would come through there on a daily basis.





DevdogAZ said:


> That was my impression as well. There was nothing to indicate the packages were coming from the other side.


I see what you are saying. The workers there receive packages from their own world and it goes through the "mail room". This was so routine that they would get boxes big enough to contain machine guns and their ammo to their desk (not office, just a desk with 5 feet of space away from the next desk) without as much as a raised eyebrow. It would be even more incredible had the packages been from the other world, I guess.

So I'm not as shocked as I was before. Now I'm just annoyed


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

pgogborn said:


> It was made absolutely clear that an essential pre-planned part of the mission was one of the team should go downstairs and cross the border after the attack.
> 
> In the meantime are the two Howards meeting in the middle? The other Howard has secreted a stash of cash to be given to Emily and he stopped to help a wounded man.
> 
> Peter is so incompetent Clare is still alive and has been taken to a hospital - which opens the door to Anubys theory about the leg X-Rays.


That pile of cash is Emily's. The other Howard just put it back were he found it. In the ceiling at Emily's lovers home.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I see what you are saying. The workers there receive packages from their own world and it goes through the "mail room". This was so routine that they would get boxes big enough to contain machine guns and their ammo to their desk (not office, just a desk with 5 feet of space away from the next desk) without as much as a raised eyebrow. It would be even more incredible had the packages been from the other world, I guess.
> 
> So I'm not as shocked as I was before. Now I'm just annoyed


Have you ever been in an office building? I work in a federal government complex. People get packages regularly of all sorts of sizes. Many much, much larger than what those guns were in. And every day litterally hundreds of packages go through the mail room. Many of them very large. They are just x-rayed before being delivered to the recipient in one of the buildings. Nothing at all unusual about a large package with a small desk. I see it almost every day walking through the comp!ex at work. A person with a very small desk, will have a package on it that is as large as the desk it's on. No one bats an eye at it.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> Have you ever been in an office building? I work in a federal government complex. People get packages regularly of all sorts of sizes. Many much, much larger than what those guns were in. And every day litterally hundreds of packages go through the mail room. Many of them very large. They are just x-rayed before being delivered to the recipient in one of the buildings. Nothing at all unusual about a large package with a small desk. I see it almost every day walking through the comp!ex at work. A person with a very small desk, will have a package on it that is as large as the desk it's on. No one bats an eye at it.


I work in an office building...so, yes, I am familiar with the mailroom concept 

But this is not a "normal" government building so I assumed security would be a little tighter there...Still, my original assumption was that it was an interworld mail room; which is clearly almost surely wrong. So, at this point, it's really not a big issue.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> That pile of cash is Emily's. The other Howard just put it back were he found it. In the ceiling at Emily's lovers home.


If someone hides a large bag in my ceiling and tells me to not look inside it, guess what I'm doing two minutes after he's gone.

I get my alphas and primes mixed up but if I were in charge of the side that was attacked, I'd wall off access to the border crossing. It won't happen, because it would be the end of the show, but that's what I would do. Is there any reason why the border crossing must be open?

I can understand Peter being upset with Clare but maybe he could have handcuffed her with access to the toilet.

I was surprised that Shaw didn't let on to Emily that he knew that Howard wasn't from his side.

Pope's speech patterns annoy the heck out of me.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Shaw is hoping that Emily will trust him with that info.
And we know that the border being opened is a benefit to both sides in trading information as each has something the other wants.


----------



## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

When Quayle pulled the gun on Howard Badass my first thought was... this isn't going to go well for Quayle. 

I'm beginning to think Aldrich is a pretty good guy. I suspect he'll be a hero of sorts in the end.


----------



## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

Anubys said:


> A few thoughts:
> 
> 1. Have I proposed yet that Nadia Prime may still be alive? That shot wasn't fatal as far I could see.


I dunno. Nadia Other has seen a few dead bodies. She would know if that wound was fatal and whether her other was still alive.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> If someone hides a large bag in my ceiling and tells me to not look inside it, guess what I'm doing two minutes after he's gone.
> 
> I get my alphas and primes mixed up but if I were in charge of the side that was attacked, I'd wall off access to the border crossing. It won't happen, because it would be the end of the show, but that's what I would do. Is there any reason why the border crossing must be open?
> 
> ...


There is just to much info to get from the other side. That could lead to trillions of dollars of resources. So while there is great risk to leaving the passage way between worlds open. The benefits trump the issues that can arise with it being open.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> There is just to much info to get from the other side. That could lead to trillions of dollars of resources. So while there is great risk to leaving the passage way between worlds open. The benefits trump the issues that can arise with it being open.


Plus if my theory is right (that they accidentally unleashed the flu on themselves while trying to develop a weapon against Alpha and they're just blaming Alpha for it publicly), then the people who would make that decision know that Alpha is innocent.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Does the general population on the Prime side know about Alpha? Or are you just meaning within the government conspiracy that knows about Alpha, there is a smaller conspiracy that's blaming the flu on Alpha?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Does the general population on the Prime side know about Alpha? Or are you just meaning within the government conspiracy that knows about Alpha, there is a smaller conspiracy that's blaming the flu on Alpha?


The latter. It would make sense if there were a secret project to develop the killer flu and it got out, most of the people involved would have been killed at the outset, leaving probably only a few higher-ups who even know. And they're certainly not going to blame themselves!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I wonder where Pope Alpha is and what he is doing!


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I wonder where Pope Alpha is and what he is doing!


I've wondered the same thing.

Great minds and all...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Great minds think alike.

Great mindlessness thinks in the same ruts.

The challenge is telling them apart...


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

It's a fine line between genius and madness. 

Or so I keep telling myself.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> It's a fine line between genius and madness.
> 
> Or so I keep telling myself.


Hey, I'm always saying the exact same thing!


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I wonder where Pope Alpha is and what he is doing!


This got me thinking. Who are all the major characters whose "counterparts" currently have unknown fates on the show?

The Primes whose Alphas are unknown: Pope, Shaw, Lambert
The Alphas whose Primes are unknown: Quayle

I believe all the other major characters have either had both counterparts shown or at least the unseen counterpart's fate was discussed at some point.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Quayle's father-in-law (Richard Schiff). Have we seen his Prime counterpart?


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

While I'm looking forward to the S1 finale, I expect that there will be many unanswered questions that will carry over to Season 2.

But, I expect that Quayle and Claire will not join us (demise either by death or jail)


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Quayle's father-in-law (Richard Schiff). Have we seen his Prime counterpart?


He's dead


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

…with his wife from the swine flu and how Pope was able to "enrole" Claire in the "school"


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> To me, it seemed pretty clear. I understood that the world split 30 years ago. From the description of Nadia, the split happened when she was 9 or 10 years old. For a show that precise, he would have said something along the lines of "The 2 Nadias would have basically shared the same experiences for the first few years after the split" or something along these lines. He didn't say anything remotely close to that. He said they were the same person until that age.
> 
> Both numbers were estimates (so 30 years may be 28 or 32 or something like that); the 9 or 10 discussion already gave us the wiggle room for THAT number. So Nadia cannot be in her 20s.


I'm still only through two episodes but this little bit (how old is Nadia) really threw me off. I haven't read past page 2 of this thread but I just wanted to throw this out there. I hope the writing isn't that sloppy. Time travel/parallel worlds messes with my head enough.....add some bad writing and I don't think I can hang.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

goblue97 said:


> I'm still only through two episodes but this little bit (how old is Nadia) really threw me off. I haven't read past page 2 of this thread but I just wanted to throw this out there. I hope the writing isn't that sloppy. Time travel/parallel worlds messes with my head enough.....add some bad writing and I don't think I can hang.


It isn't. They deal with it.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It isn't. They deal with it.


They do? I don't remember that issue ever being addressed on the show after that episode aired and we had the big long discussion about it.


----------



## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

The Break occurred a while after the two worlds where created.

The Break
Nadia was 10 years old when the break between the two worlds happened.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

So according to that link, the Prime Flu started in about 1996 at which time the two worlds began to diverge. If Nadia was 10 in 1996, then she's 32 in 2018. In real life the actress was born in 1990 but that's a small enough difference to be believable.

But I still would like them to explain how things between the two worlds stayed identical for 10 years, including down to the minute detail of Nadia/Baldwin's father falling on the subway tracks in both worlds and her sitting there watching him die.


----------



## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

DevdogAZ said:


> So according to that link, the Prime Flu started in about 1996 at which time the two worlds began to diverge. If Nadia was 10 in 1996, then she's 32 in 2018. In real life the actress was born in 1990 but that's a small enough difference to be believable.
> 
> But I still would like them to explain how things between the two worlds stayed identical for 10 years, including down to the minute detail of Nadia/Baldwin's father falling on the subway tracks in both worlds and her sitting there watching him die.


I thought the linked site explained that as well as it could before claiming it would be _further explored in the series._ C'mon, you don't want to be spoon-fed all the fantastic details...


----------



## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

We don’t know what series two will bring. Just glad they are current filming it. Enjoy following ‪@Justin_Marks_ ‬ the creator of the show on twitter.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Can't wait to see how they end the season this Sunday.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Can't wait to see how they end the season this Sunday.


Here ya' go...

Counterpart's J.K. Simmons Shares Intel on Espionage Thriller's Finale and 'Mind-Boggling' Season 2 Plans

{jk} No spoilers in the interview.


----------



## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

Exclusive: Watch how Counterpart's Kafkaesque title sequence came together


----------



## bfollowell (Aug 24, 2013)

DevdogAZ said:


> So according to that link, the Prime Flu started in about 1996 at which time the two worlds began to diverge. If Nadia was 10 in 1996, then she's 32 in 2018. In real life the actress was born in 1990 but that's a small enough difference to be believable.
> 
> But I still would like them to explain how things between the two worlds stayed identical for 10 years, including down to the minute detail of Nadia/Baldwin's father falling on the subway tracks in both worlds and her sitting there watching him die.


It says she was ten years old when the break happened, not when the worlds started to diverge. The break happened in 1987, which means she was born in 1977, and would be 41 at the time of the show. I don't buy it. She definitely looks far too young to convincingly play a character of that age. Still, that's a minor issue that I can easily suspend belief on.

The issue I have trouble suspending believe on is, how the heck does either side get all these sleeper agents through the doorway to the other side? I mean, there's a doorway, not a wide border, and they each go through one at a time, and they go through customs and are photographed. Wouldn't someone notice if people kept coming through one way, but not returning back through?!

Still, I'm hooked. I love the show! I just started watching it Monday and now I'm all caught up and anxiously awaiting the final episode this weekend. I can't wait for season two!

Has anyone heard who Starz' streaming partner will be, if anyone? I know Black Sails is available for purchase or rent through Amazon, and as part of a paid subscription to Hulu. I wasn't sure if most of their shows eventually made to Hulu or if it was on a case by case basis.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

bfollowell said:


> It says she was ten years old when the break happened, not when the worlds started to diverge. The break happened in 1987, which means she was born in 1977, and would be 41 at the time of the show. I don't buy it. She definitely looks far too young to convincingly play a character of that age. Still, that's a minor issue that I can easily suspend belief on.


No, the Break happened in 1996 (when the flu outbreak happened). So she was born in c. 1986, making her c. 32 now...which is still a touch old, but not unreasonably so.

The Break isn't when the worlds separated; it's when they began to seriously diverge ten years later.


----------



## bfollowell (Aug 24, 2013)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, the Break happened in 1996 (when the flu outbreak happened). So she was born in c. 1986, making her c. 32 now...which is still a touch old, but not unreasonably so.
> 
> The Break isn't when the worlds separated; it's when they began to seriously diverge ten years later.


So, the break is when the major diversions started? The break sounds like what they would've called the initial event. I mean, the world broke into two separate worlds...

Anyway, if what you're saying is true, it definitely allows her age to make a lot more sense. I think she still looks a little young, but she looks a lot closer to 32 than 41.

I found this link too, The Break, which confirms what you are saying. I'll have to look through that wiki and see what else I can pickup. Thanks for clearing that up for me.


----------



## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

DevdogAZ said:


> But I still would like them to explain how things between the two worlds stayed identical for 10 years, including down to the minute detail of Nadia/Baldwin's father falling on the subway tracks in both worlds and her sitting there watching him die.


That the two worlds don't diverge much for 10 years is what kills the believability for me, more so than the idea of multiple worlds, but it's a work of art so whatever. There's no narrative reason to portray it like that other than to justify Baldwin being young and hot for her sex scenes. There has to be more to it than that and maybe they'll address it in the second season.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

bfollowell said:


> The issue I have trouble suspending believe on is, how the heck does either side get all these sleeper agents through the doorway to the other side? I mean, there's a doorway, not a wide border, and they each go through one at a time, and they go through customs and are photographed. Wouldn't someone notice if people kept coming through one way, but not returning back through?!


In an early episode they showed the guards as having been subverted; in a recent episode they emphasized the point by one complaining that he was poorly paid.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I just finished watching the season finale. Really looking forward to season 2.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Seriously? It looks you that the two worlds didn't (noticeably) diverge for 10 years? What about all the mirror universe episodes we've seen in the past where, despite the worlds being very, very different, they're still filled with identical copies of all the main characters? Honestly, this is not inconsistent with the physical laws of the universe the writers have created; it is actually one of those laws.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

bfollowell said:


> &#8230;The issue I have trouble suspending believe on is, how the heck does either side get all these sleeper agents through the doorway to the other side? I mean, there's a doorway, not a wide border, and they each go through one at a time, and they go through customs and are photographed. Wouldn't someone notice if people kept coming through one way, but not returning back through?!


They mentioned various times that there are defectors, These would be people that crossed over with a valid passport, but never returned.
IIRC, there are agents whose job it is to seek them out and return them. Remember the Butcher? He was a defector who had falsified documents to evade detection. And when Claire had him killed, they removed his teeth and fingers do that his true identity would not be known.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

series5orpremier said:


> That the two worlds don't diverge much for 10 years is what kills the believability for me, more so than the idea of multiple worlds, but it's a work of art so whatever. There's no narrative reason to portray it like that other than to justify Baldwin being young and hot for her sex scenes. There has to be more to it than that and maybe they'll address it in the second season.


Once I suspended belief for multiple worlds/universes, I pretty much can buy into them not diverging much in 10 years  (which, in a way, is a short period of time)


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, that was certainly...consequential.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Watching now..
"Lone Gunman" -- Love it!


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Poker to the head!
Way to go, Howard!


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Aldrich..... No!


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Best Show of 2018


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Tony_T said:


> Best Show of 2018


Best show in a long time, not just 2018.

What a perfect ending. They cleaned it all so the story has new story lines for season two, without a manufactured cliff hanger PLUS it will be easy to remember who is who and where we are.

Often with a show I need to rewatch the entire last season to remember what is going on. Here I will remember, but want to rewatch because it was so great!


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Unless I missed something, the only part of the finale that seemed 'squeezed in' was when Quayle came home to find Claire cleaning up after someone she killed. Was this someone we were supposed to know, or was it just to show that there is a hit out on her? Didn't like this part as it seemed odd that someone that just survived a car crash could easily overtake her attacker. Would have been better if Quayle came home in the middle of the attack and they both killed the guy.


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Tony_T said:


> Unless I missed something, the only part of the finale that seemed 'squeezed in' was when Quayle came home to find Claire cleaning up after someone she killed. Was this someone we were supposed to know, or was it just to show that there is a hit out on her? Didn't like this part as it seemed odd that someone that just survived a car crash could easily overtake her attacker. Would have been better if Quayle came home in the middle of the attack and they both killed the guy.


Didn't she kill Aldrich's sidekick who was following her?

He had to go to keep the secret, so I excused this.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Family said:


> Didn't she kill Aldrich's sidekick who was following her?
> He had to go to keep the secret, so I excused this.


I couldn't make out who it was, but you're right. Thanks.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> Unless I missed something, the only part of the finale that seemed 'squeezed in' was when Quayle came home to find Claire cleaning up after someone she killed. Was this someone we were supposed to know, or was it just to show that there is a hit out on her? Didn't like this part as it seemed odd that someone that just survived a car crash could easily overtake her attacker. Would have been better if Quayle came home in the middle of the attack and they both killed the guy.


The person she killed we have seen in the show all season. He didn't follow orders since he was pissed. And decided to kill Claire. On!y it backfired on him.

He was told not to do anything and just keep a watch on Claire. Which is why he was sitting in the car at their house.

Of course it was also convienent to the story that he was killed. Since he was the only one left that knew Claire was from the other side. Besides Howard and Quayle. Now that all those people are dead, Claire can stay hidden.


----------



## bfollowell (Aug 24, 2013)

I just finished the season finale. Great ending to the a great first season of a great show. I'm hooked. The only bad part is the loonnnngggggg wait until the second season. I can't imagine that it will be before sometime next year.

Oh, well, the third season of The Expanse starts on SyFy in a week or two.

Has anyone heard who Starz is going to partner with to stream Counterpart? I know Black Sails streams on Hulu. That's the only other Starz series I'm familiar with.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Since Starz has their own Streaming App (i.e. Roku, but not Tivo). I suspect that it would be awhile before its on Hulu or any other platform.


----------



## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

Tony_T said:


> Unless I missed something, the only part of the finale that seemed 'squeezed in' was when Quayle came home to find Claire cleaning up after someone she killed. Was this someone we were supposed to know, or was it just to show that there is a hit out on her? Didn't like this part as it seemed odd that someone that just survived a car crash could easily overtake her attacker. Would have been better if Quayle came home in the middle of the attack and they both killed the guy.


Yes the person killed was one of Aldrich men in Housekeeping. Baldwin took out the rest of his group. 
Claire was high end killer and was know for being able to kill. Quayle is a idiot who couldn't even kill Claire. There is tension in the show between Clarie and Peter. He knows that she can kill him at any time and she is setting up a story with her mother that their marriage is troubled. So she could kill him when ever it is needed.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

EWiser said:


> Yes the person killed was one of Aldrich men in Housekeeping. Baldwin took out the rest of his group.
> Claire was high end killer and was know for being able to kill. Quayle is a idiot who couldn't even kill Claire. There is tension in the show between Clarie and Peter. He knows that she can kill him at any time and she is setting up a story with her mother that their marriage is troubled. So she could kill him when ever it is needed.


Except that her value to the Prime side is as the wife of someone high up in the management on the Alpha side. If she kills him, she loses a lot of her access and therefore her value.


----------



## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

She is the daughter of the director of diplomacy on the prime side.


----------



## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

Harry Lloyd Breaks Down the 'Counterpart' Finale and Teases Season 2


----------



## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

Writers room board for episode 110. Some names and action changed. Posted by Justin Marks.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

EWiser said:


> She is the daughter of the director of diplomacy on the prime side.


Who did not even bother to phone him to let him know she was alright.

Meanwhile the value of a live Peter Quayle to the daughter has increased significantly, formerly he was merely an unknowing/unwitting intelligence source for the other side.

Now not only is he willing to work as an agent of influence for the other side in effect he has been promoted by Management / 4th Floor above Director of Strategy and his influence has increased.

(although I vaguely wonder if he has been promoted by our sides's version of Project Indigo for their own purposes)


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

EWiser said:


> She is the daughter of the director of diplomacy on the prime side.


I thought her father on the Prime side was dead? In the flu outbreak?


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I was really surprised to see Aldrich go. I liked the charater.

Who fills the Pope spot? Do we know his second in command?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I was happy to see Pope go. I hated that character. Took him forever to get a sentence out.


----------



## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

EWiser said:


> She is *the other of* the daughter of the director of diplomacy on the prime side.


Fixed it.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Old Hickory said:


> Fixed it.


Nope. 

She is the other of the daughter of the director of diplomacy on the alpha side.

We're Alpha; they're Prime.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Looking at the writers' room board, it appears that a couple of characters were renamed and one was dropped altogether.

Based on how the various storylines played out, it looks like Pope was originally named St. John and Aldrich was originally Chekhov. There was also a character named Ulrich who was working with Howard Alpha on the Prime side. I can't think of an equivalent character in the final product. Maybe they gave more of that role to Emily overall and didn't need Ulrich.


It's interesting that it appears the original plan was for Chekov/Aldrich's counterpart to be the one who's holding Howard Alpha at the end. Given the story Aldrich told about manipulating his counterpart and driving him crazy, I assume they'll end up going in a different direction there. I wonder if they shot a version of that scene with someone walking through the door or if it was always left open-ended?

It also looks like they had a pretty clear idea of where everything was headed with the two Howards and knew the big story bits, such as the crossing being closed, but changed quite a lot with how they got there, especially with regards to Management.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Anybody have a guess on upper management with the funky radio. Its almost like they could be transmitting from the other side.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> Who fills the Pope spot? Do we know his second in command?


I think Mira, Head of School, is higher up the Project Indigo command chain than Pope.

And she was last seen with a go-bag all set to carry on the mission (fleeing the School life intact instead of taking a cyanide pill).

She is certainly the one the that the team that attacked the Office of Interchange clicked their heels to.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Really? I thought that Pope was the guy funding the "school".
He was there for a long time, think he told Howard he recruited "his other" 20 years ago.

Anyway, big changes in personnel for Season 2 (any talk yet for a 3rd Season?)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

EWiser said:


> She is the daughter of the director of diplomacy on the prime side.


And how is she supposed to get Intel from her father? She can't suddenly start hanging around his office or butter him up with a nice dinner.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

She gets/got intel from her husband, Quayle. Quayle got his position by marrying the Diplomats daughter


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Tony_T said:


> She gets/got intel from her husband, Quayle. Quayle got his position by marrying the Diplomats daughter


Right. But if she kills her husband, she can't just go back to her "father" and get intel from him. She doesn't have that kind of relationship with him that would allow her to get that kind of info.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I don't think she would kill Quayle.
Somehow she will be able to continue to manipulate him.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Tony_T said:


> I don't think she would kill Quayle.
> Somehow she will be able to continue to manipulate him.


That's my whole point. Someone upthread said she should kill Quayle and I was pointing out that this wouldn't benefit her at all.


----------



## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

Tony_T said:


> We're Alpha; they're Prime.


You don't know what side I'm on. ;>


----------



## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

zalusky said:


> Anybody have a guess on upper management with the funky radio. Its almost like they could be transmitting from the other side.


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

New on BBC 2 starting Friday. The City and the City.

Based on the 2009 book. 
The City & the City - Wikipedia






Good for Counterpart Fans.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

zalusky said:


> Anybody have a guess on upper management with the funky radio. Its almost like they could be transmitting from the other side.


It could also look like there was only one management, that both sides have the same management. However, having rewatched it I think there are indeed two separate managements and my guess is both managements were viewing both sides at the same time.

When the operator said "management has conferred" (or similar) I think he meant our management had conferred with their management.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

That whole management twist better have one heck of a doozy explanation and justification...


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

I've come to the conclusion that I may be too stupid to watch/enjoy this show. I get so caught up with questions in my head while watching that I'm missing what is currently going on. I either need to re-watch several times or just stop trying to overthink everything.


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

I have found listening to podcast's such as 
The Counterpart Podcast
The Counterpart Podcast
Or video review shows like. 




Help I also am on several discussion boards for shows I watch. 
I think it depends on what you want out of a show. Do you want a show that you can fold laundry too and if you miss something they still tie up the loose ends at the end of each episode. Or do you want a show that makes you think about the characters and their motivations. Counterpart is never going to be a show where you know what direction it will go. That is one of its draws for its fans.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Finished this last night. Hopefully JK Simmons gets an Emmy to go with his Oscar. Even from his body language you knew who Silk/Prime was. 

I'm assuming we will see Nadia again? Too bad no more Pope. Stephen Rea was terrific in this. Maybe his other? I don't remember any mention of his other.

The Claire episode was my favorite. It was like a mini movie. Her and Quayle are gonna be really interesting as they try to keep the secret a secret. And poor Silk...they can't hide him forever.

There's so much going on that's it's hard to point out what was great. All I know is that I'm really looking forward to season 2.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

goblue97 said:


> I've come to the conclusion that I may be too stupid to watch/enjoy this show. I get so caught up with questions in my head while watching that I'm missing what is currently going on. I either need to re-watch several times or just stop trying to overthink everything.


The reason I like it is the questions.
And I like that Counterpart does _not_ have the slo-mo grainy flashbacks at multiple times to remind the audience what they saw 10 minutes ago.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

gossamer88 said:


> I'm assuming we will see Nadia again? Too bad no more Pope. Stephen Rea was terrific in this. Maybe his other? I don't remember any mention of his other.


Nadia's dead, but we'll see Baldwin again.
I won't miss Pope (and I was surprised that Howard rose up to kill him)

Aldrich's death was unexpected and I'll miss him.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Tony_T said:


> Nadia's dead, but we'll see Baldwin again.
> I won't miss Pope (and I was surprised that Howard rose up to kill him)
> 
> Aldrich's death was unexpected and I'll miss him.


Meant to say Baldwin.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Nadia's dead, but we'll see Baldwin again.
> I won't miss Pope (and I was surprised that Howard rose up to kill him)
> 
> Aldrich's death was unexpected and I'll miss him.


Nadia is dead according to Aldrich. I'll wait and see on that 

I'm not surprised that Howard Alpha killed someone. We know he has it in him. I think one of the main arcs of the show is the internal struggle within each Howard as Alpha rises within Prime and Prime rises within Alpha. We already see both of them transform/evolve into the other. In the end, will we have an empathic super spy?


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Nadia is dead.
We saw her buried.
There is no reason for anyone to fake her death.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Nadia is dead.
> We saw her buried.
> There is no reason for anyone to fake her death.


Look, I think there is a 95% chance that she is dead. But we didn't see her buried, we saw a funeral with a closed casket being lowered into the ground. There could have been dead cats in there for all we know.

As for the reason, we have not been shown a reason...yet.

And we do know that you can learn something about a person by talking to their counterpart. There are many other reasons the writers could come up with for Nadia being alive and hidden. Of all the people on the show, Nadia is the most like Howard in that the Prime counterpart is almost a polar opposite of the Alpha. So a mirror journey for Nadia/Baldwin to that of the Howards can be very interesting.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I call this "Lost Syndrome." Where somebody thinks that because they can conceive of something, it's a possibility within the story, regardless of whether it makes a lick of sense.

With this theory, Anubys is becoming the poster child for Lost Syndrome.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Anubys said:


> Look, I think there is a 95% chance that she is dead. But we didn't see her buried, we saw a funeral with a closed casket being lowered into the ground. There could have been dead cats in there for all we know.
> 
> As for the reason, we have not been shown a reason...yet.
> 
> And we do know that you can learn something about a person by talking to their counterpart. There are many other reasons the writers could come up with for Nadia being alive and hidden. Of all the people on the show, Nadia is the most like Howard in that the Prime counterpart is almost a polar opposite of the Alpha. So a mirror journey for Nadia/Baldwin to that of the Howards can be very interesting.


We didn't see Aldrich get buried, maybe he didn't die. 
(Although I really wish they didn't kill him)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think that we did not see them die. We saw them get shot, we saw them *dying*, but we didn't see them die.

I don't think this is the first time in the history of television that we saw someone get shot, assume they were dead, and then the writers brought them back for whatever reason...sometimes for no other reason than they liked the actor!

Hell, we thought the guy on the border in no man's land was dead at the end of the second to last episode and he lasted about halfway through the next episode. They could've easily taken him to the hospital where he survives a 20 hour operation and live.

It's been known to happen!


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

How do you know the guy on the border is dead?
Maybe the 'other side' only said he was


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> How do you know the guy on the border is dead?
> Maybe the 'other side' only said he was


He's dead, Jim.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Perhaps there’s a third universe where he’s still alive.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Maybe the 4th floor is a 3rd universe….


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> Nadia is dead.
> We saw her buried.
> There is no reason for anyone to fake her death.


I think she is dead - but if she was still alive there would have been a good case to put her in Witness Protection to save her from the still alive Baldwin.

And although she doesn't realize exactly what happened she became involved in what some of the dark forces have described as the biggest secret of all time - all the more reason for some of the dark forces to keep her under observation and discourage/prevent her from resuming her normal life.

(and when it comes to British 1960s style spy drama a Funeral in Berlin does not mean somebody is dead)


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

FYI,

Season 1 is available on Blu-ray.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Counterpart S2 - Sunday, December 9 at 9/8c on Starz.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1051647333690105856


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Can I assume same release date for Prime?


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

This also gives insight into Starz’ plans for American Gods. Chances are it premiers in this same time slot in late February after Counterpart concludes.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Counterpart S2 - Sunday, December 9 at 9/8c on Starz.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1051647333690105856


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wprager said:


> Can I assume same release date for Prime?


Last season starz made their shows available at 12Am on the day they aired from the Starz app. So I was able to watch them early in the morning, even they they weren't broadcast on cable until 8 or 9PM.

I hope they do the same thing this year.


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## tigercat74 (Aug 7, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> Last season starz made their shows available at 12Am on the day they aired from the Starz app. So I was able to watch them early in the morning, even they they weren't broadcast on cable until 8 or 9PM.
> 
> I hope they do the same thing this year.


Showtime is doing that with Shameless this season. Not sure the exact time but it has been there when I wake up at 6am.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Just re-watched this on Blu-ray, re-reading this thread as I went. It was kind of fun to see the speculation and complaints, most of which turned out to be unwarranted.

One that does still bug me is the seeming lack of security on the border crossing, that allows people to get through without being traced. Which led me to a bizarre thought, which I think is almost certainly without merit, but which seems...kinda cool.

Alpha seems like basically a bunch of bureaucratic morons. My theory has always been that Prime developed the flu as a weapon (they are the more biologically advanced, after all); that it got out in their world by accident; and that they blamed Alpha. But what if Alpha is actually highly competent and effective? What if they really did use the flu against Prime (maybe not as an attack but just as an experiment)? And what if they have much tighter border control than we've seen; that they know exactly who's been crossing and have been completely on top of things?

In other words, just as Prime has a secret faction (the School), what if Alpha has a secret faction who have been behind pretty much everything we've seen so far?

As I said, almost certainly wrong. But...it amused me when it popped into my head.

One thing that occurred to me very strongly, however, and that I think might actually be true, is that Management is...Management. Not Managements. I.e., when both sides are talking to Management in the conference rooms, they're talking to the same people.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Thanks for the reminder!
S2 Next Week 12/09 at 9pm!
STARZ Encore re-running S1 starting tomorrow. STARZ re-running S1 next Sunday starting at 9:30am leading up to S2 premier at 9pm


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

It's also on the Starz app. That's how I'm rewatching.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

aaronwt said:


> Last season starz made their shows available at 12Am on the day they aired from the Starz app. So I was able to watch them early in the morning, even they they weren't broadcast on cable until 8 or 9PM.
> 
> I hope they do the same thing this year.


Does anyone know how long new episodes are available for streaming after they're put up? A week or more? I've cut the cord with Charter for at least a month and will need to use the Starz add-on with Hulu at hotspots.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

It's a STARZ Original Series, so a long time. All of S1 is still available. STARZ even has long ago cancelled series available


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

The first episode of season 2 is now available from On Demand. Available by magic.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I've seen Available by magic mentioned many times, what's 'magic'?
(S2E1 also on now streaming on STARZ)


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

torrents and such.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Wow! I completely forgot about this. I could have watched it at 1Am last night from the Starz app, if I had remembered. I had wanted to watch Season 1 again, but never got around to it. Heck I think I may have even purchased Season 1 on BD.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I finally remembered about the episodes dropping around midnight. So I watched the second episode before I went to bed early this morning. I thought it was another enjoyable episode.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> I thought it was another enjoyable episode.


GAH! This is the season 1 thread! SPOILERS!!!!!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Counterpart (Starz) Season Two *spoilers*


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> GAH! This is the season 1 thread! SPOILERS!!!!!


Is there a season 2 thread? I must have missed it.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Is there a season 2 thread? I must have missed it.


It's linked in the post immediately above your reply.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

This is awful! Now I've been spoiled that season two is enjoyable!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> This is awful! Now I've been spoiled that season two is enjoyable!


Well, the good news is he only ruined the first two episodes. The third one could still suck...

(In theory, anyway.)


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, those are five solutions. Number 3 is what they did. None of the other four accomplish their goal (to prevent the Alphites from learning something about Baldwin from Nadia). They can't arrest Nadia because they have no jurisdiction in Alpha World. Arresting Baldwin would be silly, since she's the agent they're trying to protect. Arresting both is twice as silly, because then you have both problems. And pretending to kill Nadia doesn't really solve anything, because they then have to find a place to keep her, hope and pray she never escapes, and...what? What would the rebel Primeys possible have to gain from keeping Nadia prisoner?
> 
> So please, help me with my lack of imagination! I'm still waiting...


Sorry for the late bump, but I just got Starz and binged S1 so I join along in S2.

Maybe I'm confused, but I thought the guy who shot Nadia (Alpha) was from Alpha Housekeeping (Aldrich's second in command?).


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> In reality, it's completely unbelievable that one side would have technology like an iPhone and the other side not. The only way that's realistic is if the product has just barely been released. Because once it's been out for a little while, a spy from one side would steal an example and take it back to the other side to be reverse engineered. So the whole idea of one side being more technologically advanced than the other just makes no sense.


Maybe Alpha allows Chinese slave labor, while Prime doesn't?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> In reality, it's completely unbelievable that one side would have technology like an iPhone and the other side not. The only way that's realistic is if the product has just barely been released. Because once it's been out for a little while, a spy from one side would steal an example and take it back to the other side to be reverse engineered. So the whole idea of one side being more technologically advanced than the other just makes no sense.





MacThor said:


> Maybe Alpha allows Chinese slave labor, while Prime doesn't?


In reality it is very believable. The two worlds diverged decades ago. And then the one had a massive pandemic. So resources were put towards medical issues that in the other world were not. That makes a huge difference. Plus the farther away you get from the divergence point, the bigger differences there will be.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

To duplicate an iPhone requires the capability to duplicate the chips and screen. This is not something you can easily figure out by a tear-down of a sample. A sample of Gorilla glass wouldn't tell you the manufacturing process that makes it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ej42137 said:


> To duplicate an iPhone requires the capability to duplicate the chips and screen. This is not something you can easily figure out by a tear-down of a sample. A sample of Gorilla glass wouldn't tell you the manufacturing process that makes it.


It's not about the specific components. Obviously they'd have to develop the technology to build those. But the idea that one side has touchscreen devices and the other side still uses flip phones makes no sense. Once the spies from Prime saw how ubiquitous and superior the touchscreen devices were on the Alpha side, they'd take a samples back (or even just a description) and it wouldn't be long before the engineers on the Prime side would start down that path.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

I was only half-joking. Maybe Asia Prime is a much different place than Asia Alpha (hey, I have that album). Lambert commented on how much cleaner their oceans were.
As convoluted as this show can be, we've only seen Berlin and a little of the German countryside.

Without re-igniting the quantum physics debate, is it possible that the two worlds get more and more different the further you are from the passage?

And why is the greatest secret in the world so poorly defended that one gunman can take out all the guards?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's not about the specific components. Obviously they'd have to develop the technology to build those. But the idea that one side has touchscreen devices and the other side still uses flip phones makes no sense. Once the spies from Prime saw how ubiquitous and superior the touchscreen devices were on the Alpha side, they'd take a samples back (or even just a description) and it wouldn't be long before the engineers on the Prime side would start down that path.


Leaving aside the question of how one would build an iPhone without the ability to manufacture its component parts, I don't think the spies from Prime are focusing on consumer electronics. The information exchanges we saw in earlier episodes were concerned with larger issues.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Diplomacy would have delt with that type of info exchange. Doesn't have to always be big picture deals.


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