# Each day I read this forum is a day I'm glad I waited to buy the S3



## landrvr1 (Sep 12, 2006)

Just sayin.....!


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## NetJunkie (Feb 19, 2003)

Go read any forum on any product. People (like me) that are working just fine don't have much to say. I just told my wife tonight "Have I mentioned how nice it is to have a Tivo on the main TV again tonight?".

My cablecard install went fine. Hardware works. No real problems. Great video quality.


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## frankygamer (Mar 19, 2002)

Everyday I use my Series 3, I'm glad I got it. Just sayin'


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

frankygamer said:


> Everyday I use my Series 3, I'm glad I got it. Just sayin'


:up: +1.


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## sjcbulldog (Jul 13, 2004)

Yea, I too think you are just getting those with problems posting here for the most part. My entire experience has been great and now my S3 is working flawlessly.

Sjcbulldog


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

Another happy S3 owner here!


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## SystemJinx (Aug 13, 2005)

My S3 is working flawlessly. Sorry, I should have posted the info sooner.


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## Sixto (Sep 16, 2005)

Same here ... still sweet!


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## Largeleon (Dec 31, 2003)

I am 110% satisfied with my S3.
Coming from Moxi, I would have been happy with a Squirrel chiseling pictures on a stone tablet like the Flintstones' camera.

Now, if I could only been this happy with Charter. What a nightmare to deal with over the phone. Arrggh. But, now everything is working fine.


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## lightrunner (Sep 24, 2006)

Other than the remote control issue, I don't have any other complaints. Its GREAT to hear the blip blip's on my TV again. I'll take any Tivo over any archaic DVR any day of the week. These posts are not only informational but its where people come to discuss tivo quirks and issues to help each other resolve them. Besides, I think the number of people that are having issues with their S3 is a small percentage. 
As Engadget and PVRWire stated we are intrepid Tivo users and when there is a problem we don't sit around twiddling our thumbs we put our heads together and solve them.


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## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

While my S3 has it's share of bugs... and I'm still working on ironing out my CableCard issues... I'm very happy I bought my S3.

In the end, the issues are minorly annoying and the enjoyment I've already got out of my S3 make all this worth it.


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## infinitespecter (Jul 23, 2004)

Mine has been pretty much flawless. My only complaints directly relate to the ridiculous limitations of TiVo's software.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

100% happy. The dual tuner came just in time for our first scheduling conflicts of the new primetime TV season, and the box has worked perfectly since I installed it. A few days later, the cablecard install went well (all digital simulcast and unencrypted HD channels come in just fine, and thats what I pay comcast for). No missed recordings, no programs deleted. The only thing not working is the online scheduling via tivo.com. I have programmed via yahoo tho.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

landrvr1 said:


> Just sayin.....!


As I have said many times you generally only hear from people complaining. Most of us that are happy don't.

I think it's an awesome unit, certainly miles above my SA 8300 which is going tomorrow.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

NetJunkie said:


> I just told my wife tonight "Have I mentioned how nice it is to have a Tivo on the main TV again tonight?".


Yet you fail to inform us of her response...


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## tunnelengineer (Jul 21, 2006)

Most of the time, the tivo works 100%. Thise of us posting bugs want them to be fixed and this is our only way of doing that. Just look at any other forum and see the responses. This is nothing new. It doesn't mean it's a bad product at all. 

Even with the glitches, I am overjoyed to be watching HD recorded shows and not stick to a schedule of watching them live. The video quality is outstanding. Recording OTA HD is awesome.


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

Another happy customer: no shipping, installation, or operation problems.


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## hawkamer (Jun 5, 2002)

Words can't describe how happy I am to be using TiVo instead of the SA 8300.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

Happy Camper!!! I am experiencing the audio dropout issue but Im confident that Tivo will fix it and I can live with it until then. Tivo >> 8300.


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## Eskimo Pie (May 17, 2002)

90% of what you read here is from the 10% who are having issues or who weren't really aware of what the S3 was before they bought it... As you can see in my poll below, the overwhelming majority are happy with their TiVo... only a few are unhappy and have sent it back (or think it's a pile of parakeet dung for that matter)...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4440711#post4440711


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I am in love with my S3


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## Eskimo Pie (May 17, 2002)

At this time, the poll as 91% of responders either LOVING the S3 or that at least the good outweighs the bad and are keeping it... only 5% think the issues aren't worth it and are sending it back or absolutely hate it.

That should tell you all you need to know about whether you should buy an S3.

For the statisticians out there who think the numbers don't add up, I threw out the folks who responded as not having an S3...


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## bsather (Sep 8, 2006)

Largeleon said:


> I am 110% satisfied with my S3.
> Coming from Moxi, I would have been happy with a Squirrel chiseling pictures on a stone tablet like the Flintstones' camera.
> 
> Now, if I could only been this happy with Charter. What a nightmare to deal with over the phone. Arrggh. But, now everything is working fine.


Same here.


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## albrandwood (Aug 12, 2002)

We are happy with our S3 ... 

We are using it to get just HD content (at least until I can afford to replace the harddrive with a 750+gb drive ...)
We are keeping the S2 in the livingroom as well for the SD channels and the MRV requirement (although the S2 no longer has a STB) (The S2 is also getting the SD versions of the HD content, just incase there are problems with the HD broadcast (such as the copy protection flag)

@


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

While I am happy with mine, there is something to be said for waiting. Many of us are blazing a trail with our cable companies and cablecards that later purchasers won't have so much trouble with. And the next software release or two will likely fix about 90% of the most annoying bugs. And you may be able to find the box for a better price by waiting.

On the flip side, most of the bugs are minor annoyances, cable companies are always a pain to deal with, some of us already saved 10% by ordering through Circuit City online, and it is a really nice box with great picture and sound quality.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

ChuckyBox said:


> Circuit City online, and it is a really nice box with great picture and sound quality.


I to mine from CC on line. No 10% savings for me.


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## jeffl24 (Oct 2, 2006)

I LOVE the S3. I waited to get HDTV until the S3 came out because I can't watch TV without TiVo. I think TiVo got almost everything right with the S3. I'm not a big user of the network features so I don't miss them. My cable company didn't know squat about the S3 but got the CableCards running in a 30 minute visit. The video and sound quality is excellent, a huge step up from the S2 even in analog. Best of all, it works just like my old TiVo, except for the recent minor improvements we should be getting on the S3 soon. The one I miss is the delete with no confirmation.

I really see only two major issues. The first is the price. If that is a problem, you should wait. For me it is well worth it. We are talking about a luxury item here, not a necessity. Second is the amount of storage capacity. I am pretty confident the eSATA will get turned on in an update, but if not I can do a drive replacement upgrade after the warranty runs out. Probably only about 20% of the stuff I record is in HD anyway at this point. All my SD channels are digital so I have yet to determine just how many hours of it I can record, so the capacity may be a non-issue as well.

I got well over 90% of what I wanted in the S3, and there are not many products in the world I can say that about.


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## Necro (Sep 26, 2006)

Yeah, mine works ok. A few small bugs but overall ok.


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## nightstrm (Sep 12, 2006)

Count me as another satisfied S3 owner... back after ditching my S1 box a couple years ago for MythTV.


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## gayste (Feb 27, 2002)

2 weeks and 1 day after ordering on the 12th I had working CCs and a GREAT product. I am thrilled and am GLAD I did not wait, even with the shipping and cable card fiascos!


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

I love my S3 and it works great, but I still feel it is overpriced for *my* DVR budget and is missing those value-added features (TTG and MRV) that really set TiVo apart. If it wasn't already in my house, I probably would have waited for a $150 first rebate.

Chucky makes a good point about being a trail blazer... dealing with Comcast has been a major pain. Taking into account I got the box a month earlier than most, I'm still trying to straighten out my bill and wonder why the channels I get fluctuate every few days.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

landrvr1 said:


> Just sayin.....!


There is a comfortable place for you at the [email protected] Chicken [email protected][email protected]'$ Temple.


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## NetJunkie (Feb 19, 2003)

classicX said:


> Yet you fail to inform us of her response...


She agreed completely. We were going to wait toward Xmas and get the S3 as a gift to each other but she surprised me with the early order. She couldn't take our SA8300 anymore..especially with Lost starting this week. She loves Tivo as much as anyone.


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## DocSavag (Feb 18, 2006)

We love our S3 as well. No serious problems for us. We love the unit. Glad I ordered the first night it was available.


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## dobbie1 (Apr 15, 2002)

S3 working great here! No problems with the cable card install or with the S3 unit. Picture is great in native mode. I have noticed that the temp seems to be running higher than my S2 units. I have ordered a USB cooler pad and hopefully that will bring the temp down some.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Each day I delay ordering an S3, I have to tolerate a mind-bogglingly inconvenient ballet between watching SD recorded on TiVo, or HD recorded on an abominable user 'interface' on the 6412 ... all on an HDTV capable of displaying great picture quality.

Just sayin'

Bugs, shortcomings and deferred (even eliminated) features notwithstanding, I don't see myself holding out much longer!


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

People who don't have the money, or think the series 3 is too expensive are DESPERATELY hoping that everybody hates it.

Kinda pathetic.

-smak-


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

smak said:


> People who don't have the money, or think the series 3 is too expensive are DESPERATELY hoping that everybody hates it.
> 
> Kinda pathetic.


They're just mad because we won't let them in the Rich [email protected] [email protected][email protected]$ clubhouse. But there is no truth to the rumor that we won't let them on the grounds. We are always looking for good caddies.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> While I am happy with mine, there is something to be said for waiting. Many of us are blazing a trail with our cable companies and cablecards that later purchasers won't have so much trouble with. And the next software release or two will likely fix about 90% of the most annoying bugs. And you may be able to find the box for a better price by waiting.


ChuckyBoxs post is a good summary of the more important reasons I am still waiting to buy an S3. I am most concerned about the potential problems surrounding CableCARD configuration. I suspect that every cable company is getting better at CableCARD installations but bitter experience has taught me that if it can be screwed up Cox OKC will find a way to do it.

The SA 8300HD I use now works and is cheap but its software is primitive by TiVo standards so I wont miss it when I finally buy an S3. Fortunately, I have until the end of the year to transfer my S1s lifetime service to a new S3.


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## daveyslc (Sep 23, 2006)

jeffl24 said:


> I LOVE the S3. I waited to get HDTV until the S3 came out because I can't watch TV without TiVo. I think TiVo got almost everything right with the S3. ....


Two things: FF/Rewind and Media Center comparison

1) FF/Rewind: I'm a new Tivo ower so forgive me if this is old hat. But tivo fixed the fast forward and rewind capability. That is, they got it right. The inherent problem with ff/rewind is that by the time you find what you're scanning for, it's too late. It's history. So then you have to reverse direction to find the right spot.

With my S3 it "credits" you back allowing for human reflex lag (HRL ) and starts playing earlier/later than you stopped. Awesome

2)My only source of buyer's remorse for this unit is that I wonder what I could have done with a PC. What if I would have used an HD tuner card in my pc with Media Center or something. Would that not be more open? Could I potentially be able to edit and burn the stuff that I record? I'm a programmer, maybe a tivo is too user-friendly and too much of a "black box." I'm asking, not telling though.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

davey, fake acronyms make me HuRL! 

As for the Media Center comparison, it's been done. That PC woudln't record from two Digital CableCards, now, would it?

Before I owned a TiVo, I went the ATI All In Wonder card on a powerful(-enough for SD, anyway) PC running Win2K and then XP, and was thoroughly disgusted. Even with a remote control and the then-available Snapstream software. I know things have moved way past that level now, and I have complete confidence in my ability tos et up a kick-butt system with as many tuners as I want ... but it absolutely is NOT worth the hassle. Really. (Yet)


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## g808 (Sep 14, 2006)

Actually MCE Vista will be be able to record from 2 CableCARDs. I have a Snapstream Beyond TV setup with 4 analog and 2 OTA HD tuners, and it works great. I got my S3 to replace the crappy Comcast DVR, so I can timeshift/record mainly premium HD channels. This now give me 4 HD tuners! I still love my Beyond TV setup. I see the Series3 as a great addition to my home theater setup with Beyond TV.


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## Georgia Guy (Feb 21, 2003)

hookbill said:


> I to mine from CC on line. No 10% savings for me.


Looks like the 10% savings is only on AV products purchased at the same time, not the Tivo.


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## Sepia (Jan 5, 2002)

I've had HDTV for over three years now, and I've used the Moxi and the Scientific Atlanta HD8000 for over a year and a half, and my God am I happy to finally have the Series 3 TiVo!!

Every day I sit at the telly with my wife, one of us comments on how awesome it is to have TiVo again, it is *that* good.

Yes I spent top dollar for it, yes I went through shipping hassles, yes I went through a bit of cablecard hassle, and YES I'd do it all over again in a heart beat.

This unit is everything I wanted it to be. I have absolutely no complaints about it whatsoever.

THANK YOU TIVO! :up: :up: :up: :up:


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## jchapman (Mar 29, 2005)

Unhappy Series 3 owner here. It keeps deleting my shows "due to a policy set by the copyright holder". It has completely locked up for no apparent reason twice. Add the shipping fiasco and I think everyone who waited made the right choice. What use is a DVR if you can't trust it actually work as advertised? Stick with your Series 2, it may be slower than molasses, but at least it works.


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## Goofball (Jun 23, 2004)

jchapman said:


> Unhappy Series 3 owner here. It keeps deleting my shows "due to a policy set by the copyright holder". It has completely locked up for no apparent reason twice. Add the shipping fiasco and I think everyone who waited made the right choice. What use is a DVR if you can't trust it actually work as advertised? Stick with your Series 2, it may be slower than molasses, but at least it works.


The S3 deleting your shows due to "copyright holder policy" is a problem with your cable provider setting digital copy protection flags they shouldn't be playing around with or setting on content other than their PPV programs. You need to contact your cable provider and let them know of the issue you are seeing with this, the channels you are seeing it on and the programs that are getting deleted and ask them to look into and fix it. You may have to invoke the name of the FCC and make calls to the corporate office for whatever provider you have to get them to take notice and fix this but it is fixable and ISN'T a TiVo problem.

As for the "working as advertised": The S3 that I have, other than a couple of non show-stopping issues that should be easily resolvable in a software update, works as it should. It sounds like early adoption wasn't for you. Every time a new TiVo is released they have a period of a few months where the bugs are present before they can get a couple of updates released to squash them. It happened with the Series 2, the DTiVo, the HD-DTiVo and now with the S3. If you don't believe me go back and look at posts from right after the release dates on those products.

Anyone who thinks a product involving this much software is going to be perfect out of the box needs to take the blinders off. No matter how much beta testing the company does with the limited amount of people that can be involved they will still miss a vast amount of problems that aren't apparent due to the limited number and configuration of testing setups compared to actually deploying a device or software to customers where you end up with an almost infinite number of configuration variations that are impossible to test for.


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## rrman (Mar 6, 2005)

TiVo S3 working great for me. Cablecard install went smoothly. Keep in mind, when reading these forums, that most of the posts are "problem" posts, since, in general, folks not having any problems are enjoying their new toy and not logged into these forums.


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## boblip11 (Oct 6, 2005)

After a few days of use....I love the S3. 

My wife is super-thrilled. She was reduced to tears several times with the SA DVR Comcast supplies.

I could not be happier (ok..a rebate would make me happier)....but I am glad I did not wait until Christmas which was my earlier plan. :up: :up: :up:


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## beerkensp (Dec 29, 2003)

Tivo 3 is great. 2 Tuners and HD!

I never subscribed to any of the HD channels before as I hate to watch TV outside Tivo. Now I am seeing HD for the first time on my set-up and it is awsome. 

The only thing I am missing now is tivo to go but I still have my tivo 2 for the pc=>Tivo. I am sure that this will be sorted out at some point.

Stop reading now and go and buy yours.


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

Happy happy happy


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## Cormode (Feb 27, 2003)

daveyslc said:


> 2)My only source of buyer's remorse for this unit is that I wonder what I could have done with a PC. What if I would have used an HD tuner card in my pc with Media Center or something. Would that not be more open? Could I potentially be able to edit and burn the stuff that I record? I'm a programmer, maybe a tivo is too user-friendly and too much of a "black box." I'm asking, not telling though.


Before pulling the trigger on an S3, I used a PC with dual HD tuner cards for over a year. I'm a programmer too

With the PC - yes 
... I could down-mix the shows to DVD quality and burn them. I could cut out the commericals and watch them later. I could make Seinfeld DVDs nearly as good as my box sets.

... yes there are software packages with interfaces arguably just as good as tivo, and much faster - Beyond TV for example.

... but 
HD is not easy for a PC, even the best setup sometimes has issues with video stuttering because it just can't keep up. My rig cost just as much as the S3. 
- $100 a pop for HD tuner cards. (OTA only, no cable card for PC until mid 2007)
- HDTV is THE most demanding video application your computer will ever see. $200 for a video card that do HD playback with out stuttering. Most video cards refuse to do 29.97 FPS so there is the odd "torn" frame every thirty seconds or so, which is annoying to watch on video. 
- You need a TV with DVI input not HDMI. 
- HD content is 9 GB per hour, so I needed a dedicated drive for shows - $100. Audio card with digital audio out - $50. 
- Oh and the computer needs a multi Ghz processor to keep the show smooth - so there are three fans the with all that noise. Electricity alone to run this thing cost $20 a month. This is mitiaged somewhat by using hibernate or suspend, but nothing breaks faster that a Windows configuration so every few weeks your steaming mad cause the computer "forgot" to wake up for a recording.
- Plus I've put that much cash into what is essentially a great gamming system and I endup fighting with my wife and son over whether I'll play video games or they'll watch TV. 
- Did I mention the remote. Yikes! Any usb remote under $50 seems to be designed by a nerd who has no concept of how people want to use one.

so the PC offers something tivo doesn't, but with the PC you are always thinking, 'pretty soon I'll get this to be as good a Tivo and only 115% of the cost'


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## megaphore (Oct 5, 2006)

Nice post Cormode! I just wanted to chime in with ...I LOVE MY TIVO ..my series 3 at least. My other 2 are getting jealous because the series 3 is getting all the attention. Actually I don't use my series 1 anymore and my series 2 I left over my parents house since they would not give it up.


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## g808 (Sep 14, 2006)

> - You need a TV with DVI input not HDMI.


Not true, you can have a TV with HDMI. Just use a DVI to HDMI cable. Many people do this.



> - HD content is 9 GB per hour, so I needed a dedicated drive for shows - $100. Audio card with digital audio out - $50.


I have onboard nvidia Soundstorm (Dolby Digital) on an old socket A mobo, so that was a great deal for me.



> - Oh and the computer needs a multi Ghz processor to keep the show smooth - so there are three fans the with all that noise.


Not really. I have a Sempron 2500+ and a AMD XP-2500 mobile both playing back HD. Although with that little CPU power I do need nvidia 6600 video cards, but they go for under $90 now days.

I still use Beyond TV with 2 OTA HD tuners, and it's great. The S3 helps with the premium HD channels.

Bottom line is that you can build cheap PCs for HD playback now days. The main server doesn't need to be overpowered since recording HD takes little horsepower since it's just recording the digital stream without any encoding needed. Still a server plus a couple clients still aren't the cheapest solution, but not as expensive as it was a couple years ago. Plus you get multi-room viewing.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

As for the 9GB per hour comment, you should try one of the newer codecs (fancier DiVX with decent bitrates, MS's new Encoder codec and Apple/Quicktime formats) for a pleasant surprise.

Is till consider it all too much of a pain for anyone interested in quick plug-and-play HD DVRing 

Oh, and FYI, HDMI = DVI + multichannel Audio. It's when you start talking about HDMI's (spec's) inherent requirement for Content Protection et al (which some DVI inputs may implement, but aren't requried to), that you start digging up (consistent) differences. Resolution spec et al, they're identical.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Cormode said:


> - HD content is 9 GB per hour, so I needed a dedicated drive for shows - $100.


On Win MCE, it seems to be about 6GB FWIW.


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## snathanb (Sep 13, 2006)

ashu said:


> As for the 9GB per hour comment, you should try one of the newer codecs (fancier DiVX with decent bitrates, MS's new Encoder codec and Apple/Quicktime formats) for a pleasant surprise.
> .


That's fine, if you are trying to archive the material. However, S3 Tivos and HD Capture cards typically just capture the raw transport streams, hence the 9GB per hour.

It would take quite a bit of horsepower to try to transcode two HD streams to DIVX, in real time for storage.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

snathanb said:


> That's fine, if you are trying to archive the material. However, S3 Tivos and HD Capture cards typically just capture the raw transport streams, hence the 9GB per hour.
> 
> It would take quite a bit of horsepower to try to transcode two HD streams to DIVX, in real time for storage.


Precisely my point. Avoidable hassle.

One COULD set up a script on the mythTV or BeyondStream box one used for raw TS stram capture to convert during long windows of no scheduled recordings, of course, and semi-automate it, if one were so inclined.


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

I have no issues with my S3, cablecard installation had no problems whatsoever and it has been working fine.


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## acampos4182 (Sep 17, 2006)

very happy with my S3. should have spoken up earlier.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

Love the Series3; had some minor hassles with Comcast--two visits to get two cards working, but getting rid of that Motorola 6412 has done wonders for my ulcer. When (if?) TiVo supports MRV, I'm getting another one.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Gee, from the post on this thread shouldn't the title be changed to "everyday that goes by I'm glad I bought my S3?" But if you were a possible purchaser and just looked at the title and how many people posted, you might think twice.


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## khill821 (Apr 4, 2002)

Despite the shipping fiasco from tivo.com (btw - I still haven't received my "we're sorry" bag) I'm very happy. I transferred from D* and the HR10-250. No cablecard problems, more HD channels available on cable and I love having a clock by the tv again!

Best feature that seemed so silly - displaying the programs being recorded on the front panel.


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## ctakim (May 7, 2006)

I never got my Series 3 to work after 3.5 weeks of phone calls and installation visits. Ended up returning my unit so I'm in the same boat as the OP. But I'm not realy happy about it!


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

ctakim said:


> I never got my Series 3 to work after 3.5 weeks of phone calls and installation visits. Ended up returning my unit so I'm in the same boat as the OP. But I'm not realy happy about it!


But as you admited in your other thread, it was probably the cable company who was at fault, not TiVo.


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## ctakim (May 7, 2006)

I'm not 100% sure as the cable company blames the Series3 and the TiVo.com support blames the cable company/card. My inclination is to believe that it is the cable company and card issues. Either way it leaves me in the same place. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not TiVo bashing, but I'm not really a happy customer, either.


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

I ordered mine the day they became available, had it the day I expected to get it, and it has worked great!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

The cable company techs here were more than willing to acknowledge that the problem could be something they don't know about getting the CableCards to work with the TiVo. The obligation is still on the CE manufacturer to provide enough diagnostics for the cable company techs to respond to, though.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

bicker said:


> The obligation is still on the CE manufacturer to provide enough diagnostics for the cable company techs to respond to, though.


The cards are providing diagnostics, and the cable companies seem to have no idea what they mean. They're their cards, they should know how to make them work.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

btwyx said:


> The cards are providing diagnostics, and the cable companies seem to have no idea what they mean. They're their cards, they should know how to make them work.


+1. The issues folks are experiencing with cablecards are largely back at the cableco in getting the billing system and the pairing done properly. Not much Tivo can do about that.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

And what should they do when all that reads properly? In my case, the problem simply went away. How do you diagnose and prevent that situation?


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

TiVo did what they needed to in informing the cable companies about the release of the S3. What the cable companies did in various areas of the country upon receiving the information was either a)ignore or b)paid little attention to.

I was fortunate that my cable company did seem to care enough upon doing first install in the area they sent out a field supervisor and a line tech. But from that point on it's pretty much copy the instructions, put them in the techs mailbox and if they have any problems they help each other out. 

From what bicker is suggesting it seems to me that perhaps he would like to have had TiVo go to every cable companys area office with a S3 and do a demonstration for all technicians. That, is unfeasible. This is just the way things work in the world when something new like this comes out.

The instructions are clear and if they follow them EXACTLY, it will work.

Even when I had my install done as hard as they tried they didn't follow exactly, and neither did I though I thought I did. It created a problem with the second card, however we we're lucky to overcome it because there was a tech who they found out had done a successful install and he got us through it. We simply did not wait for the config screens to pop up automatically.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I do agree it is unfeasible, but necessary to avoid the high volume of problems (20%-40% failure) we're seeing. That's why TiVo's between a rock and a hard place.

The instructions, while clear, will not always work if followed exactly. Even with perfect CableCards. There is an inherant weakness in the design, probably in the design of CableCards, but perhaps in the design of the S3. Either way, somewhere, there is a weak design.


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## jchapman (Mar 29, 2005)

Goofball said:


> The S3 deleting your shows due to "copyright holder policy" is a problem with your cable provider setting digital copy protection flags they shouldn't be playing around with or setting on content other than their PPV programs. ... you have to get them to take notice and fix this but it is fixable and ISN'T a TiVo problem.


While I'm sure you're correct for many of these copy protection problems, I've looked at the CableCard diagnostics when my Series 3 is recording a "flagged" show, and the CCI code is 0x00; the cable company isn't actually setting any copyright protections. Either the diagnostics on the TiVo are wrong and the show is getting mistakenly flagged by the cable company, or something else on the TiVo is wrong and setting the flag when no flag should be set. In my mind, that makes this a TiVo problem, and me an unhappy customer. I'm not claiming that my circumstance is what everyone else is seeing, but I'm probably not unique either.

FWIW, I'm well aware that I'm on the bleeding edge, and I'm relying on my Series 2 for actually recording the television that I want. That being said, the copy protection and freezing problems I'm experiencing make me unhappy with my Series 3 at the moment, and I don't excuse TiVo just because it's new technology; I expect them to fix it. If TiVo updates the Series 3 and resolves my issues (which as you mention is to be expected with new releases); I'll become a happy customer.

To chime in on the "what can you do with a Media PC instead?" subtopic; I built both an HD MythTV system and Windows Media Center last year, and I still bought the Series 3 as soon as it was released; neither option came close to the user experience that I wanted.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

bicker said:


> I do agree it is unfeasible, but necessary to avoid the high volume of problems (20%-40% failure) we're seeing. That's why TiVo's between a rock and a hard place.
> 
> The instructions, while clear, will not always work if followed exactly. Even with perfect CableCards. There is an inherant weakness in the design, probably in the design of CableCards, but perhaps in the design of the S3. Either way, somewhere, there is a weak design.


I still don't know where your seeing failure of 30-40%. Can you show me where you came up with this?

If I recall correctly I saw 70% people who either had successful install or had some problems and everything working ok. The other 30% were people who still were having some problems, not necessarily failures.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

jchapman said:


> While I'm sure you're correct for many of these copy protection problems, I've looked at the CableCard diagnostics when my Series 3 is recording a "flagged" show, and the CCI code is 0x00; the cable company isn't actually setting any copyright protections. Either the diagnostics on the TiVo are wrong and the show is getting mistakenly flagged by the cable company, or *something else *on the TiVo is wrong and setting the flag when no flag should be set. In my mind, that makes this a TiVo problem, and me an unhappy customer. I'm not claiming that my circumstance is what everyone else is seeing, but I'm probably not unique either.
> 
> To chime in on the "what can you do with a Media PC instead?" subtopic; I built both an HD MythTV system and Windows Media Center last year, and I still bought the Series 3 as soon as it was released; neither option came close to the user experience that I wanted.


On the part I emphasised, yeah ... AFAIRemeber, there is an additional MacroVision content flag that can make the same problem show up. TiVo's implementation is right (and as legally reuired!), the cable company shouldn't be pushing that flag!

As for the MythTV and MCE solution, I'm right with ya! Didn't even bother to build those two, took two Advil (a day!), tolerated the Motorola 6412, and I'm about to (someday between now and Christmas) get an S3


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

hookbill said:


> > I do agree it is unfeasible, but necessary to avoid the high volume of problems (20%-40% failure) we're seeing. That's why TiVo's between a rock and a hard place.
> 
> 
> I still don't know where your seeing failure of 30-40%. Can you show me where you came up with this?


I didn't say 30%-40%. I said 20%-40%. It comes from a poll here in this forum.



> The other 30% were people who still were having some problems, not necessarily failures.


If it doesn't work, it is a failure. You can Bill Clinton the wording any way you wish.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

bicker said:


> IIf it doesn't work, it is a failure. You can Bill Clinton the wording any way you wish.


Hey, lay off my buddy Bill.  I disagree however if it's working and you got some problems, it's not a failure. Many of those issues may have been resolved. Your relying on a poll that simply hasn't been updated so you really don't have any idea.


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## snathanb (Sep 13, 2006)

hookbill said:


> Hey, lay off my buddy Bill.


We'll lay off Bill, if he lays off Chris Wallace.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

hookbill said:


> Many of those issues may have been resolved.


I simply doubt that. As far as I've read, the only problem that might have been resolved was the audio drop-out problem.



> Your relying on a poll that simply hasn't been updated so you really don't have any idea.


That much is true -- one of those "Failure" votes is mine, and my problem was resolved. We should run a new poll... I'll go do that...


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

snathanb said:


> We'll lay off Bill, if he lays off Chris Wallace.


But I thought Chris *liked* it when people ... never mind.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

hookbill said:


> TiVo did what they needed to in informing the cable companies about the release of the S3. What the cable companies did in various areas of the country upon receiving the information was either a)ignore or b)paid little attention to.


So you think sending a letter to the cable companies was sufficient warning by Tivo for the cable companies. I guess Tivo expected them to jump up and immediately train all their employees on doing dual cable card installs in a non-TV that they had never seen before. Keeping in mind that they probably did a single cable card install per month before the S3 came out.

In my mind most if not all of the blame here lies at Tivo's feet. They should have sent out demo units and trainers if they wanted a smooth introduction. They didn't. They sent a letter. How lame is that?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> So you think sending a letter to the cable companies was sufficient warning by Tivo for the cable companies. I guess Tivo expected them to jump up and immediately train all their employees on doing dual cable card installs in a non-TV that they had never seen before. Keeping in mind that they probably did a single cable card install per month before the S3 came out.
> 
> In my mind most if not all of the blame here lies at Tivo's feet. They should have sent out demo units and trainers if they wanted a smooth introduction. They didn't. They sent a letter. How lame is that?


And I'm sure the cable companies would have immediately spent the money necessary to train all of their installers on how to install CableCards in the demo units of the S3, which represents a product intended to replace the cable companies' own STBs and DVRs. Yeah, right.

Tivo told the cable companies what was coming and provided detailed instructions on how to install the cards. If you follow the instructions, the install should go smoothly.

The biggest problems seem to be lots of bad cards (not Tivo's fault), the inability of the cable companies to initialize the cards properly (not Tivo's fault), and the cable installers' inability to configure the cable system properly using the information provided by the Tivo during the install (not Tivo's fault). The inability or flat out refusal of some cable installers to follow the directions does not reflect poorly on Tivo at all.

The cable companies could just as easily have trained the installers using a television. The install would go the exact same way, except you'd install 2 cards in a device instead of 1. The fact is, cable companies don't train much for it because CableCards likely take away money (from STB and DVR rentals) and making the installs harder may make more people mad at Tivo than at the cable companies.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> So you think sending a letter to the cable companies was sufficient warning by Tivo for the cable companies. I guess Tivo expected them to jump up and immediately train all their employees on doing dual cable card installs in a non-TV that they had never seen before. Keeping in mind that they probably did a single cable card install per month before the S3 came out.
> 
> In my mind most if not all of the blame here lies at Tivo's feet. They should have sent out demo units and trainers if they wanted a smooth introduction. They didn't. They sent a letter. How lame is that?


Geez... There are probably more cable companies and divisions than there are Series 3 units shipped to date.... TWC alone is made up of many many divisions many of which will never see an S3.

Add to that fact that there is NO difference between installing a cablecard in a Tivo and installing one in a TV from the Cableco perspective... im not sure what the point of sending them S3's would be.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Exactly. So knowing that the cable companies operate this way, the burden was on Tivo to work twice as hard to make the roll out smoother. They didn't. Tivo could have done a lot more than they did.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> Exactly. So knowing that the cable companies operate this way, the burden was on Tivo to work twice as hard to make the roll out smoother. They didn't. Tivo could have done a lot more than they did.


You seem to think that the cable companies would be falling over themselves to show their installers how to install the CableCards in an S3. With all due respect, that seems pretty naive to say the least. Tivo probably could have offered to pay to train the cable installers, and the cable companies would still have said no. The fact is, the S3 will take away both STB/DVR rental fees and PPV fees from the cable companies. The cable companies have a monetary interest in keeping the CableCard installs as difficult as possible.

The behavior of the cable companies is beyond Tivo's control. But hey, if you're out to blame Tivo for the cable companies' behavior, feel free.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

You honestly don't think Tivo could or should have done more to make this go smoother for the loyal customers that were willing to spend $800 for the latest and greatest Tivo?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

Like what? Personally send a Tivo rep to your house to ensure a smooth CableCard install?  

Tivo told the cable companies what was coming and provided a step-by-step instruction guide. Tivo has also been running an 800 number hotline for talking to cable companies that claim they don't have to install CableCards in the S3. 

Tivo cannot and is not responsible for training the cable installers on how to install CableCards (yet Tivo included the instruction guide, which if followed works). The installation of CableCards in the S3 is no different than the installation of CableCards in a television. You just do it twice. The inability of the installers to install CableCards in the S3 tells me they couldn't do it in a TV, either.

I get the feeling you'd be complaining no matter what Tivo did. If Tivo sent out demo units that the cable companies didn't use, you'd complain that Tivo didn't do more to ensure that the cable companies used the demo units, or that Tivo didn't offer to have live demos explaining the S3 units to the installers, or whatever other reason there is to complain.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> You honestly don't think Tivo could or should have done more to make this go smoother for the loyal customers that were willing to spend $800 for the latest and greatest Tivo?


Yeah, they (TiVo) shoulda bought every cable company, bribed CableLabs, and Jerry & Pony ought to have trained every single cable technician personally to ensure a flawless, consitent experience. DAMN them and their half-assed implementation!



While you're at it, perhaps you can request personal, in-home training & overview presentations by TiVo CS folks, and by Shanan, for the most loyal TiVo customers.

<edit> Darn, I smeeked a joke because I didn't re-refresh the page. Good one TexasAg


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I personally wont be satisfied until they stop by and do Ashu's laundry


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

So if they had it to do all over again you think Tivo would do the exact same thing again? Or do you think they would try to think of ways to help it go smoother? 

If I were the executive in charge of the rollout I would not be bragging about what I great job I did on the S3. Perhaps your standards are different. Or you are just unable to admit Tivo could have done a better job than they did.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> So if they had it to do all over again you think Tivo would do the exact same thing again? Or do you think they would try to think of ways to help it go smoother?
> 
> If I were the executive in charge of the rollout I would not be bragging about what I great job I did on the S3. Perhaps your standards are different. Or you are just unable to admit Tivo could have done a better job than they did.


Well, what EXACTLY were they suppose to do? I mean we've given you every scenerio of things that they could have done, but no matter what you say they could have done better.

As far as I'm concerned my install was done excellently.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

How about something as simple as temporarily installing 10 of them in every major city as test cases? That at least would have uncovered many of the problems the end users ran into with cable companies that had never seen an S3 before.

I'm not suggesting that Tivo could have trained every cable installer. But they could have certainly done more than they did.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> How about something as simple as temporarily installing 10 of them in every major city as test cases? That at least would have uncovered many of the problems the end users ran into with cable companies that had never seen an S3 before.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that Tivo could have trained every cable installer. But they could have certainly done more than they did.


Ok, how many "major citys" Los Angeles, Chicago, New York? More? Your talking about big bucks. In my area (Cleveland) there are about 5 cable companies. I imagine there are a hell of a lot mere in Chicago and L.A. So is that a TiVo for each cable company?

Not realistic.

Think about this:

TiVo: Hi XYZ cable, we would like to bring you out our new S3 and show you how to install the cable cards so it will benefit our customers.

XYZ: WTF, we already got a DVR and it don't use no cable cards.

TiVo: Yes, (slight laugh) we know about your DVR, but ours is something your more upscale customers may want. And as you know we are on the cablecards list so you do have to support us.

XYZ: Look we ain't got time for this crap. Just send us something in the mail. (hangup).


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

hookbill said:


> In my area (Cleveland) there are about 5 cable companies.


   

I thought there were like five companies in the whole COUNTRY! How many ma-n-pa companies do you have there in Ohio?!

As for test-installs in big cities... I'm sure that's what the beta was for and I'm sure the beta had some people using CableCARDs.

Beta testers experiences probably helped to write the letter sent to cable companies.


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## Bodshal (Jan 4, 2005)

But what can they realistically do? This box has been known about for _ages_. The fact it went though CableLabs certification [s|w]ould have put it on the Cable Co's radars. They chose to ignore it. Tivo sent a letter. They chose t ignore it. It didn't sneak up on anyone. Reticence and general stupidity on the part of Cable Co's and their installers account for the majority of issues. And that won't change. The install is _identical_ to that of TV's. Just twice. And they have issues with TV's too.

What _we_ should be doing it getting the industry changed. CableCards exist because of the fear of theft of service and of theft of content. Petition the FCC, your local representatives, etc, on making the system better for we, the consumers, rather than blaming the bottom end of the food chain for problems in a system it didn't impose.

Chris.


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## Bodshal (Jan 4, 2005)

HiDefGator said:


> How about something as simple as temporarily installing 10 of them in every major city as test cases? That at least would have uncovered many of the problems the end users ran into with cable companies that had never seen an S3 before.


None of the issues I've seen encountered are TiVo specific. The same issues exist on all cablecard devices.

And they did beta test the unit in various places. Of course, I dare say the cable companies sent their experts and then didn't use the experience for the general good - probably after the experts said "oh, it's just like a TV. who'davethought."

Chris.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> I thought there were like five companies in the whole COUNTRY! How many ma-n-pa companies do you have there in Ohio?!


There are 5 major companies in the country, which are made up of the hundreds of companies they bought. In a lot of ways its still like there are hundreds of companies, they're just all owned by the same 5.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Most of the problems encountered are caused by the cable companies not wanting cable cards. They're doing everything they can to ignore them, hence the s*itty service.

The latest madate from the FCC, which the cable companies are fighting feircely, may change this. The mandate is that cable company boxes must work with cable cards, just like 3rd party equipment (eg S3s). When that happens, you can bet the cable card problems will magically dissapear.

At the moment the cable companies need to realise how stupid they are, the S3 customers are potentially some of their best customers, and they'd do well to realise you don't want to piss off your best customers.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

btwyx said:


> At the moment the cable companies need to realise how stupid they are, the S3 customers are potentially some of their best customers, and they'd do well to realise you don't want to piss off your best customers.


I doubt the cable companies would view them as their best customers when they stop paying to rent their DVR and they no longer buy any PPV from them.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I doubt the cable companies would view them as their best customers when they stop paying to rent their DVR and they no longer buy any PPV from them.


Why does everyone think the cable companies make money renting boxes? They don't, they're a loss leader.

The PPV issue is one of the things the cable companies need to wake up about. I said we were *potentially* their best customers, you give them a way of ordering PPV and they'd probably do so.

Its possible for an S3 to get PPV, the cable companies just need to put the right systems in place. And for their potentially best customers, with their higest margin product (PPV) they should have a much better attitude about this.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

btwyx said:


> Why does everyone think the cable companies make money renting boxes? They don't, they're a loss leader.


Paying $6.95/month for a cable card, would make some one a best customer. They'd make bundles off that.


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## MJedi (Jun 17, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> I doubt the cable companies would view them as their best customers when they stop paying to rent their DVR and they no longer buy any PPV from them.


The fact that a lot of us are switching from satellite to cable because of the S3 is a huge opportunity to gain more subscribers... and they are blowing it. It's always more expensive to gain customers than to keep them, and the S3 is making it easier for them. No marketing needed. TiVo did it for them by releasing a product that was highly-anticipated by its current users and works with cable. And yet they don't seem to care.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

btwyx said:


> Paying $6.95/month for a cable card, would make some one a best customer. They'd make bundles off that.


and these are customers willing to spend 700 to 800$ on a DVR to get the best experience to record a lot of HD. How many premium channels do these customers subscribe to?


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> You honestly don't think Tivo could or should have done more to make this go smoother for the loyal customers that were willing to spend $800 for the latest and greatest Tivo?


I think they did a lot... They included a 'Here's how to do it mr cable installer if your not too dumb to read' document... They get on they phone with you to help get cablecards.....

From the comments in these threads... many of the installers just scoff at the instructions and do it 'their way' and are clueless as to why it doesnt work. If it werent for the 'good ones' (like j2chulo in NYC and keith in Raleigh who did mine) who actually care about doing a good job, it would be worse.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

SCSIRAID said:


> I think they did a lot... They included a 'Here's how to do it mr cable installer if your not too dumb to read' document... They get on they phone with you to help get cablecards.....


I've read the instructions, and they don't strike me as a foolproof way to do an install. Plug and card in and wait a few minutes. What? Navigate to a screen and get some numbers that you may or may not need. What?

Installation should be a script run on the TiVo that prompts you exactly when to insert the cards and let you know how long it is waiting for the card to initialize. Once all the identification is done, enter a validation code and have the TiVo phone home and relay the data to the cable company via an email or fax.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

btwyx said:


> Most of the problems encountered are caused by the cable companies not wanting cable cards. They're doing everything they can to ignore them, hence the s*itty service.
> 
> The latest madate from the FCC, which the cable companies are fighting feircely, may change this. The mandate is that cable company boxes must work with cable cards, just like 3rd party equipment (eg S3s). When that happens, you can bet the cable card problems will magically dissapear.
> 
> At the moment the cable companies need to realise how stupid they are, the S3 customers are potentially some of their best customers, and they'd do well to realise you don't want to piss off your best customers.


Not to be negative, but what are they going to do? Customers don't have any choice as long as the Cable Co's remain a monopoly in their areas. I guess they could report them to the FCC who will in turn slap them on the wrist and tell them to "do better" after several months of lawyering back and forth. Meanwhile there you sit with an S3 that doesn't work. Average ppl will give up and return them.

If someone were to ask me right now if they should buy one, I'd say **** no. Wait until TiVo, Cable Co's, and the FCC have worked everything out.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Not to be negative, but what are they going to do? Customers don't have any choice as long as the Cable Co's remain a monopoly in their areas.


There is competition in the form of DirecTV who are in the middle of blowing it as well. There are quite a few migrating from D* to and S3 because of D*'s unsupport for TiVo. (Me included.)


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

All the installers that have a LITTLE bit of intelligence and knowledge are custom installers who setup up high end systems, do calibrations, are in bed with remote control companies and Monster and the like (NTTAWWT ... the joy of capitalism)

The leftover scum seems to be working (barring a few noted exceptions) the menial cable company/sat installer gigs. 

Or perhaps the cable companies are not investing enough into training their potentially smart installers to use the new equipment. And throwing them into the deep end to figure it out for themselves.

You can't blame TiVo for this state of affairs and any of the above scenarios.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

btwyx said:


> There is competition in the form of DirecTV who are in the middle of blowing it as well. There are quite a few migrating from D* to and S3 because of D*'s unsupport for TiVo. (Me included.)


... not to mention their ever-decreasing 'HD' resolutions, but that's another issue


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

btwyx said:


> There is competition in the form of DirecTV who are in the middle of blowing it as well. There are quite a few migrating from D* to and S3 because of D*'s unsupport for TiVo. (Me included.)


DirecTV is not competition to cable for S3 users. S3 users are locked into using cable. Also most people that don't use sat service are those that like to have the whole house wired without having a box in every room, don't like rain fade, or the large expense of switching to sat (Free installs aside) Then there are the users in areas with obstructed views and such or under bans on dish installations.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

btwyx said:


> There are quite a few migrating from D* to and S3 because of D*'s unsupport for TiVo. (Me included.)


You keep saying this, but the definition of "quite a few" is still up in the air. I doubt it is a significant number for either D* or Cable.

We won't find out for sure until the next Tivo earnings report.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> You keep saying this, but the definition of "quite a few" is still up in the air. I doubt it is a significant number for either D* or Cable.


I've never said it was a large number, you're confusing me with someone else. Its enough to have our own little thread about it.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> DirecTV is not competition to cable for S3 users.


It is competition for TiVo users. They're just blowing the HD end of the TiVo equation.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> The biggest problems seem to be lots of bad cards (not Tivo's fault), the inability of the cable companies to initialize the cards properly (not Tivo's fault), and the cable installers' inability to configure the cable system properly using the information provided by the Tivo during the install (not Tivo's fault).


That wasn't my experience. What makes you thing THOSE are the "biggest" problems? As far as I know, the single biggest problem is the random channels missing problem, and none of those things you listed seem to have been associated with that problem.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> Like what?


Build a more robust piece of equipment.



> Tivo cannot and is not responsible for ...


Correct -- TiVo is responsible for providing a product that works for every customer who they sell it to, without the kind of variability of experience we're reading about.



> The installation of CableCards in the S3 is no different than the installation of CableCards in a television.


Evidently, that is not the case.



> I get the feeling you'd be complaining no matter what Tivo did.


I surely wouldn't. Check the archives and you'll see how gung ho I was on the introduction of severl previous new TiVo models. This-one-is-different.


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## ctakim (May 7, 2006)

At this point I don't really care if it was the cable company's fault (probably) or TiVo's (unlikely). I just know that I spent $1000 ($800 + 200 lifetime transfer) and got nothing, or at least no encrypted or digital channels. So I sent everything back. I just think that the cablecard concept is a pisspoor consumer technology. I would still jump back on the TiVo wagon if I thought I could get it working.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bicker said:


> Build a more robust piece of equipment.
> 
> Correct -- TiVo is responsible for providing a product that works for every customer who they sell it to, without the kind of variability of experience we're reading about.
> 
> ...


(1) It works for me, and seems to work for a bunch of others. Install the cards correctly, and it works just fine.

(2) Tivo sells a product that will generally work if you install the cards correctly and the cable companies provision them correctly (not counting the random channel loss, which appears that it might be a bad batch of units).

(3) The installation of the cards is exactly like installation in a TV (pop card in, get number, send to cable company system, get channels). The fact that the cable installers can't do it in the Tivo means they couldn't do it in a TV.

(4) I was talking to HiDefGator, not you. But you do complain a lot. 

(5) We were discussing problems with CableCards. The random loss of channels does not appear to be related to the cards, does it?


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## cekauzl (Sep 6, 2006)

I hear you, I've been waiting on a few things before I buy an s3, or even if I'll buy one at all:

1) Waiting for price to go down
2) Its looking like CC 2.0 is going to drop before too long (maybe early 2007)...samsung has shown off a CC 2.0 cable box at trade shows, you know tivo S3.5 will be out by the end of 2007 (hope hope)
3) Not sure if TIVO will let me out of my 2 year commitment on my s2DT, and I have no need for 2 TIVOs
4) I don't want to but the s3 and then live in constant fear my cable providers will change to switched cable, rendering my $800 box worthless (and getting that snide 'we don't service TIVO devices remark from the cable company)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> It works for me, and seems to work for a bunch of others. Install the cards correctly, and it works just fine.


That's incorrect. My installers did install the cards correctly, and it didn't work just fine. So the most you can say that if you install the cards correctly, sometimes it works just fine and sometimes it doesn't. That's the whole point we're making here.



> Tivo sells a product that will generally work ....


How many people want to buy something that "generally" works? People want a product that works -- period.



> The installation of the cards is exactly like installation in a TV (pop card in, get number, send to cable company system, get channels). The fact that the cable installers can't do it in the Tivo means they couldn't do it in a TV.


Which proves the point, since the some of the installers I had later in my installation experience have had lots of CableCard experience with televisions, and the S3 still didn't work after its CableCards were installed properly.



> We were discussing problems with CableCards. The random loss of channels does not appear to be related to the cards, does it?


As far as I know, no one has reported that specific problem with OTA or basic cable. Before I got my CableCards I had no problem.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bicker said:


> That's incorrect. My installers did install the cards correctly, and it didn't work just fine. So the most you can say that if you install the cards correctly, sometimes it works just fine and sometimes it doesn't. That's the whole point we're making here.
> 
> How many people want to buy something that "generally" works? People want a product that works -- period.
> 
> ...


Several people in the "Random Tuner Loss" thread have already said they swapped boxes and the problem went away. Someone even said that they had the same problem with an OTA antenna, so it does not appear to be limited to just CableCards.

Every manufacturer has some products that don't work, such as TVs that suffer from "green blobs", laptop batteries that explode, etc. No one can produce perfect products 100% of the time. That's why we have return policies.

When multiple people have said that returning their boxes and getting new ones solves the problem, you've got your answer - you likely have a box with a flaky analog tuner or some other flaky component. Are you going to return yours and see if the new box resolves your problem as it has for other people, or just complain about it?


----------



## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

TexasAg said:


> Several people in the "Random Tuner Loss" thread have already said they swapped boxes and the problem went away. Someone even said that they had the same problem with an OTA antenna, so it does not appear to be limited to just CableCards.
> 
> Every manufacturer has some products that don't work, such as TVs that suffer from "green blobs", laptop batteries that explode, etc. No one can produce perfect products 100% of the time. That's why we have return policies.
> 
> When multiple people have said that returning their boxes and getting new ones solves the problem, you've got your answer - you likely have a box with a flaky analog tuner or some other flaky component. Are you going to return yours and see if the new box resolves your problem as it has for other people, or just complain about it?


I think I'm becoming a member of the TexasAg fan club.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

My problem "went away" -- that's much more disturbing that a box swap being accountable for the remediation of the issue. It points to an inherent lack of robustness in the design.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

bicker said:


> My problem "went away" -- that's much more disturbing that a box swap being accountable for the remediation of the issue. It points to an inherent lack of robustness in the design.


BS. It points to a defective component. Welcome to the bleeding edge of a brand new product.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

If the component was defective, why wouldn't you expect that the product wouldn't work (ever), or at least that the problem would return (it hasn't)?

Lots of folks feel that CableCard is simply bad technology. That's what I believe is causing what I believe is excessive dissatisfaction with S3 CableCard installs.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

bicker said:


> If the component was defective, why wouldn't you expect that the product wouldn't work (ever), or at least that the problem would return (it hasn't)?
> 
> Lots of folks feel that CableCard is simply bad technology. That's what I believe is causing what I believe is excessive dissatisfaction with S3 CableCard installs.


Because components dont always fail in a completely 'dead' manner (that would be waaaay to easy). The completely dead ones usually get found and fixed in the manufacturing process A semiconductor in a process corner can exhibit timing issues that results in intermittent bad performance. Incomplete/cracked solder joints that make or break based on expansion and contraction cause intermittent problems. Intermittent problems are the absolute WORST things to try and figure out. Just ask folks in the computer industry......


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Okay -- going with that: So basically anyone could be subject to the same problems, including those who swapped out their boxes for new ones -- they'll just encounter the problem after the 30 day period is expired.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> Several people in the "Random Tuner Loss" thread have already said they swapped boxes and the problem went away. Someone even said that they had the same problem with an OTA antenna, so it does not appear to be limited to just CableCards.
> 
> Every manufacturer has some products that don't work, such as TVs that suffer from "green blobs", laptop batteries that explode, etc. No one can produce perfect products 100% of the time. That's why we have return policies.
> 
> When multiple people have said that returning their boxes and getting new ones solves the problem, you've got your answer - you likely have a box with a flaky analog tuner or some other flaky component. Are you going to return yours and see if the new box resolves your problem as it has for other people, or just complain about it?


What's disturbing is that the boxes that 'failed' all worked fine for several weeks. It remains to be seen whether the replacement boxes will fail again in a few weeks.

Also it's damn near impossible to get TiVo to swap the box...


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bicker said:


> Okay -- going with that: So basically anyone could be subject to the same problems, including those who swapped out their boxes for new ones -- they'll just encounter the problem after the 30 day period is expired.


Yes, bicker, that's exactly right. Soon we will all be complaining about our defective Tivos since clearly all are defective and therefore will be having problems. Tivo knew about it but shipped a clearly defective product anyway, knowing that eventually everyone would have problems but the 30-day window would be past. They are laughing all the way to the bank. Want to talk about a class action lawsuit? (now waiting for the standard bicker line of "you're childish and rude")

This ain't rocket science. S3s that are not defective will not have intermittent problems. Only those S3s that have a defective part (like an analog tuner) will likely be DOA or suffer from intermittent problems. DOA units can be identified in the factory quite easily since they won't power up, the analog tuner won't work during testing, etc. These DOA units usually aren't shipped. Some are, of course, but many aren't.

Units with intermittent problems usually cannot be detected easily (unless you get lucky and one fails while testing in the factory), so they often do get shipped. Customers (the normal ones) buy them, notice the problem, and return them. Other customers (the abnormal ones) keep them and post in on-line forums about the less-than-robust design of the product.

Some folks obviously like to argue and complain just for the sake of arguing and complaining.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> Yes, bicker, that's exactly right. Soon we will all be complaining about our defective Tivos since clearly all are defective and therefore will be having problems.


 Amazing timing....


Adam1115 said:


> What's disturbing is that the boxes that 'failed' all worked fine for several weeks.


Tex: I know you want to project "nothing is wrong" message, but I believe that's not constructive. I think if people stopped trying to suppress realistic concerns about the S3, everyone would be better served. But you go ahead and keep misleading the newbies.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bicker said:


> Tex: I know you want to project "nothing is wrong" message, but I believe that's not constructive. I think if people stopped trying to suppress realistic concerns about the S3, everyone would be better served. But you go ahead and keep misleading the newbies.


Nah, I'll just let you continue pronouncing that every unit suffers from a non-robust design. After all, that will give you a basis for your continued complaining about the design of the S3 every chance you get. 

The fact is, some folks (you included, it seems) may have gotten some bad units with an intermittent problem with one of the analog tuners. This means it's not a design flaw, it's just a problem with some of them as manufactured, and folks have to make sure they didn't get a bad one and return it if they do.

You can't just take the 20-30 people who have had problems with analog tuning and pronounce it's a bad design, especially since (i) not everyone had to wait weeks for the problem to appear, (ii) some people have appeared to correct the problem with new boxes, (iii) we know many, many more S3s have shipped than complaints about it, and (iv) plenty of folks apparently have not had this problem (oh wait, I forgot, we all do, it's just a matter of time, right?).

Why do you think electronics typically have a return window of 30 days or some other period of weeks? It's because most electronics, if they fail because of a manufacturing problem, will usually do it within the first few weeks of use.

Still wondering if you'll return yours and get a new one or just keep complaining about the design. What's your plan, post here about the defective design until you pass the 30-day return window and then complain they won't take back their defective product?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> Nah, I'll just let you continue pronouncing that every unit suffers from a non-robust design.


This sentence doesn't even make sense. The design pertains to the model, not individual units. 



> Still wondering if you'll return yours and get a new one or just keep complaining about the design.


That's idiocy. On what basis would I initiate a return? (Or have you not been paying attention to what I wrote?)


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> What's your plan, post here about the defective design until you pass the 30-day return window and then complain they won't take back their defective product?


Given that his screen name is "bicker", my guess would be yes ...


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bicker said:


> That's idiocy. On what basis would I initiate a return? (Or have you not been paying attention to what I wrote?)


How about the complaints you've been making?

Or how about this - did you bother checking out the terms of where you ordered it? The Tivo VIP site has a 30-day return policy. Most electronic stores are 30 days. You don't need to have a reason. "I don't like it" would be good enough. But then again, that would require you to return it (you know, actually do something). Unless of course your 30 days have passed, which goes back to what I said earlier:


TexasAg said:


> What's your plan, post here about the defective design until you pass the 30-day return window and then complain they won't take back their defective product?





jfh3 said:


> Given that his screen name is "bicker", my guess would be yes ...


Amen.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I see no sense in returning something that is working. 

I'll continue to warn folks about how difficult it was to get it working, because I believe that new buyers want to know that sort of thing. You're welcome to continue to warn folks how little trouble you had, if you wish. 

Why is that so hard to understand and accept?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

bicker said:


> I see no sense in returning something that is working.
> 
> I'll continue to warn folks about how difficult it was to get it working, because I believe that new buyers want to know that sort of thing. You're welcome to continue to warn folks how little trouble you had, if you wish.
> 
> Why is that so hard to understand and accept?


Sure, that's what you've been doing. You've just been trying to warn people about how hard the S3 was to set up. That's all. Kinda like a public service. You haven't been complaining about the design of the box, constantly harping on Tivo's failure to do this or that, etc., etc. And of course, you make sure to balance all the complaining by pointing out how well it works and how well you like it, right? You also make sure to let people know that many more folks have had smooth installs or few problems, right?

I'm afraid at this point I'll have to take the suggestion mentioned elsewhere, and I will no longer feed the troll.


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## Schmidt (Feb 17, 2002)

"Fortunately, I have until the end of the year to transfer my S1s lifetime service to a new S3."

If Tivo will allow me to wait until the end of this year to transfer my S1's lifetime service, I'll definitely wait until that time to purchase an S3. Maybe more cablecard issues will be addressed by then, and I'll have a little less time to wait for a Tivo software upgrade to resolve some Tivo issues I've been reading about here, like a lag in remote response, occasional audio dropouts, etc.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

Schmidt said:


> "Fortunately, I have until the end of the year to transfer my S1s lifetime service to a new S3."
> 
> If Tivo will allow me to wait until the end of this year to transfer my S1's lifetime service, I'll definitely wait until that time to purchase an S3. Maybe more cablecard issues will be addressed by then, and I'll have a little less time to wait for a Tivo software upgrade to resolve some Tivo issues I've been reading about here, like a lag in remote response, occasional audio dropouts, etc.


I believe the lag in remote response and the audio dropouts were fixed in the latest software update. As a benefit, though, waiting might help you get it a little cheaper (I couldn't wait to dump my Motorola DVR).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> And of course, you make sure to balance all the complaining by pointing out how well it works and how well you like it, right?


I find sarcasm inane, so I'll assume that you're serious. I have actually gone on in great detail about the superlative customer service I've received from the TiVo Customer Service folks. I've made it real clear that this is a very bright, shining aspect of TiVo, that customers should be happy about. I've also mentioned several times that my S3 now works completely, which in itself is not only good news for prospective purchasers but also for folks who already bought the S3 and struggling with problems such as I had. When there is more positive things for me to say, I'll say them, _especially (though not exclusively) when I read threads that I feel are *missing *the information I have to provide_.



> You also make sure to let people know that many more folks have had smooth installs or few problems, right?


Yup, I sure do. I think one of the things I consistently indicate that the one of the polls indicates that only between 20% and 40% have any problems with CableCard installs. Indeed many more people have insignificant or no problems.


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## Bighouse (Sep 3, 2004)

bicker said:


> ...the high volume of problems (20%-40% failure) we're seeing. ..


What?!?!? You're claiming that the faliure rate is somewhere between 20% and 40% for an S3?!?!? Where are you getting those figures from?!?!? If any company had a failure rate of 40% for any product line, they'd be out of business the next day. If you want to really scare people, don't fabricate outrageous numbers that don't make sense...temper a little truth with a lot of invented fear- Oh wait, better leave that task to the current administration.

For the record, I'm one of the "Lucky 200" and the only real complaint I have with my whole S3 experience was that shipping fiasco. BUT, my S3 is working great and with the latest software update, even better than when first hooked up to my cablecards. Though it was the first S3 the Comcast tech had seen, the installation went smoothly.

LOVE my S3- can't wait for the external drive port and MRV! (Don't really care about TTG!)


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Bighouse said:


> What?!?!? You're claiming that the faliure rate is somewhere between 20% and 40% for an S3?!?!? Where are you getting those figures from?!?!?


See the other thread about not feeding the troll.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Bighouse said:


> What?!?!? You're claiming that the faliure rate is somewhere between 20% and 40% for an S3?!?!?


No. I'm reporting that a poll indicated that between 20% and 40% of folks trying to get the S3 working with CableCards had trouble. Sorry you got confused about that.


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## The TiVo Dude (Jun 9, 2004)

Schmidt said:


> "Fortunately, I have until the end of the year to transfer my S1s lifetime service to a new S3."
> 
> If Tivo will allow me to wait until the end of this year to transfer my S1's lifetime service, I'll definitely wait until that time to purchase an S3. Maybe more cablecard issues will be addressed by then, and I'll have a little less time to wait for a Tivo software upgrade to resolve some Tivo issues I've been reading about here, like a lag in remote response, occasional audio dropouts, etc.


Actually, you have to buy the S3 by 12/31/06 and xfer lifetime by 1/31/07.


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## mikatc (Oct 14, 2006)

bicker said:


> No. I'm reporting that a poll indicated that between 20% and 40% of folks trying to get the S3 working with CableCards had trouble. Sorry you got confused about that.


Sadly I never got mine to work. No encrypted channels.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

mikatc said:


> Sadly I never got mine to work. No encrypted channels.


I trust that you arent gonna give up? Escalate up the management chain. Complain to the franchising authority. Scream!!!! Dont let the cableco win


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## mikatc (Oct 14, 2006)

SCSIRAID said:


> I trust that you arent gonna give up? Escalate up the management chain. Complain to the franchising authority. Scream!!!! Dont let the cableco win


Too late! I had 3 separate 2 hour cable company visits over 25 days. I started to get afraid that it would never work and the 30 days return period would expire. For $800 bucks it should not be this hard to get something working. I'm hampered by living in an area with a small independent cable service cooperative. They had not installed any other Series3 and only used a handful of cable cards. I spoke to the cable card specialist at the company on numerous occasions.

So I'll wait. Perhaps it will save me some $$ in the long run.

TiVo.com was easy to deal with although I wish they had some magical incantation that I could have used to get it to work. They paid for the return, which was nice.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

mikatc said:


> Too late! I had 3 separate 2 hour cable company visits over 25 days. I started to get afraid that it would never work and the 30 days return period would expire. For $800 bucks it should not be this hard to get something working. I'm hampered by living in an area with a small independent cable service cooperative. They had not installed any other Series3 and only used a handful of cable cards. I spoke to the cable card specialist at the company on numerous occasions.
> 
> So I'll wait. Perhaps it will save me some $$ in the long run.
> 
> TiVo.com was easy to deal with although I wish they had some magical incantation that I could have used to get it to work. They paid for the return, which was nice.


Sorry to hear that.... hopefully they can get their act together and get you back to Tivo in HD soon.


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## mikatc (Oct 14, 2006)

Thanks, I'll jump back in when I hear others in my area are successful. I got too far ahead of the bleeding edge curve for this area's technology, I guess.


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## landrvr1 (Sep 12, 2006)

Yup, still glad I waited....

It's been months now since I made this post, and I've followed this forum with keen interest. While there's been some improvements, the overall level of satisfaction remains rather ho-hum.

After lurking and reviewing and puzzling and checking out every review on other sites that I can, I've come to one basic conclusion:

The Series 3 is a decent unit. The main problem has always been, and continues to be, the price. It's simply not worth the money; seriously sluggish sales and poor Tivo stock performance is proof positive. Cablecard problems, resolution issues, bugs, etc etc etc are all just annoying distractions from the real issue: The unit is overpriced.

I'd LOVE to pick up a Series 3, but that price is silly money. I can afford it, but that isn't the point. Nearly as puzzling, and something that I believe is going to put the final nail in the Tivo coffin, is that the price hasn't come down. The word is out about the Series 3. Three months after Christmas, you'd expect to see a price reduction. This is a common tactic to attract those many holiday shoppers who saw the unit, SAW that price, and said "Maybe later". Well, later is NOW - and we're still at $800+ Sad, really.

If that unit suddenly showed up at Best Buy with a price tag of $600, you'd get some more customers. $500 and a serious subscription discount, and we may see some light at the end of the tunnel.

$400 and a serious subscription discount, and you may actually see the stock go up.


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## acampos4182 (Sep 17, 2006)

very satisfied S3 user


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

landrvr1 said:


> ...Well, later is NOW - and we're still at $800+ Sad, really....


It's $600 at Costco right now. See here.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

landrvr1 said:


> The Series 3 is a decent unit. The main problem has always been, and continues to be, the price. It's simply not worth the money; seriously sluggish sales and poor Tivo stock performance is proof positive. Cablecard problems, resolution issues, bugs, etc etc etc are all just annoying distractions from the real issue: The unit is overpriced.
> 
> I'd LOVE to pick up a Series 3, but that price is silly money. I can afford it, but that isn't the point. Nearly as puzzling, and something that I believe is going to put the final nail in the Tivo coffin, is that the price hasn't come down. The word is out about the Series 3. Three months after Christmas, you'd expect to see a price reduction. This is a common tactic to attract those many holiday shoppers who saw the unit, SAW that price, and said "Maybe later". Well, later is NOW - and we're still at $800+ Sad, really.


I can understand your frustration. The price is high. But this post seems to contradict some basic tenets of economics (ie: supply and demand.)

(Not to mention the price HAS come down.)

For now, TiVo has determined there's still enough demand for this product to offer it at the price it's at. And still, when supply outstrips demand completely, the price will come down further.

Not much more to it than that.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

I couldn't be happier than with my S3. I left DirecTV solely because of the S3, and I'm thrilled.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

ad301 said:


> It's $600 at Costco right now. See here.


At Costco.

He said it had to be $600 at BestBuy.

I'm very satisfied with my Series 3 purchacse.

Al


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

landrvr1 said:


> Yup, still glad I waited....
> 
> It's been months now since I made this post, and I've followed this forum with keen interest. While there's been some improvements, the overall level of satisfaction remains rather ho-hum.
> 
> ...


People generally don't come to a forum and post how great it is every 5 seconds... of course you are only reading people that are complaining...

Me and my Dad both have a S3, VERY happy with it. Best DVR I've ever owned, much better than the HR10-250...


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## landrvr1 (Sep 12, 2006)

Fofer said:


> I can understand your frustration. The price is high. But this post seems to contradict some basic tenets of economics (ie: supply and demand.)
> 
> (Not to mention the price HAS come down.)
> 
> ...


Basic economic tenants of supply and demand - especially in the electronics market - have been rewritten so many times over the last decade it's hard to keep track. The old playbooks have been entirely thrown out the window. The market is full of examples where sluggish sales prompted price reductions, and a turnaround. First generation iPods are a classic example. There's many, many more.

I firmly believe that this isn't a case of 'demand is still okay, so let's keep the price where it's at'. There's other issues at play here. Tivo isn't a company of idiots. They know full well that they have a 'premium' product on their hands - one that only a fraction of the marketplace is going to buy. They are also fully aware that sales and stocks are sluggish; overall poor performers. Lastly, they know that their position in the marketplace is being threatened at ever increasing levels from many competing companies and technologies. Doom and gloom, anyway you cut it...

Nope, there's method to the madness, and it goes like this: Many Wall Street analysts are saying the same thing about Tivo: They are hoping like hell to get picked up by a larger company. Sitting on the fence without making any kind of bold marketplace or cost-cutting moves will result in lower stock value. Lower stock price = bargain in the eyes of many.

Hmm. Lower price = bargain? Hmm. Interesting.


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## landrvr1 (Sep 12, 2006)

Everyone's pricing examples does NOT represent a reduction in retail price whatsoever. Costco's price is a limited offer. Amazon is at $659; which is a recent reduction and one you would expect from them.

Tivo = $799
Best Buy = $799
Circuit City = $799

Retail sales still drive the marketplace.

This isn't about everyone here being happy or not happy. There will always be complaints and praises. I'm conceeding that Tivo is making an attempt to satisfy S3 users with bug fixes and such. I'm just saying that for a company that is basically in the financial crapper (or at least on the edge of the bowl), they aren't pulling any dazzling moves to win more marketshare.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

landrvr1 said:


> Everyone's pricing examples does NOT represent a reduction in retail price whatsoever.


Do you see the availability of these discounts as any kind of indication of a trend, though? Perhaps some kind of indicator?

6 months ago, no matter what, or where you looked, you wouldn't find the S3 for less than $800. And now it can be easily found for $600-$650.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

landrvr1 said:


> Everyone's pricing examples does NOT represent a reduction in retail price whatsoever. Costco's price is a limited offer. Amazon is at $659; which is a recent reduction and one you would expect from them.


So basically you will ignore any data point that contradicts your argument.


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## landrvr1 (Sep 12, 2006)

Fofer said:


> Do you see the availability of these discounts as any kind of indication of a trend, though? Perhaps some kind of indicator?
> 
> 6 months ago, no matter what, or where you looked, you wouldn't find the S3 for less than $800. And now it can be easily found for $600-$650.


I completely see that there's a bit of movement in the right direction, but it's not coming from Tivo. It's Costco and Amazon who have elected to reduce their price and take less profit off the top as a result. Tivo's got nothing to do with their prices, and they'll get their same cut regardless.

I don't want to sound ungrateful or nitpicky. As a customer, I'm looking for the best price - regardless of where it comes from! The Costco deal is a pleasant surprise, and has once again (blast it!) made me consider picking one up.... Grr.


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## landrvr1 (Sep 12, 2006)

pkscout said:


> So basically you will ignore any data point that contradicts your argument.


Not at all. See my post above.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

landrvr1 said:


> Yup, still glad I waited.... <snip>
> 
> The Series 3 is a decent unit. The main problem has always been, and continues to be, the price. <snip>


Disagree with the waiting point. I won't argue the money point, because it is not ours to decide. If TiVo wants to sell it for whatever, that's their decision. And only you can decide if it's worth it to you to pay that price. Such is the decision buyers make all day all over the world.

But I will address the waiting. The issue is, do you want an HD DVR? If you have an HD TV, and are used to DVRing your shows, then you have to either use a cableco/satellite DVR, or the TiVo. I also have a cableco DVR, and it is barely tolerable. There was absolutely no hesitation in my household about getting an S3. We love the TiVo UI, and we wanted an HD DVR. Why wait? So I save $100 if I wait a year, maybe $200? That's one year without a TiVo HD DVR. Life's too short.

I'm not into immediate gratification, but OTOH one does have to make the leap at some point, or life passes you by . . .


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

landrvr1 said:


> Nope, there's method to the madness, and it goes like this: Many Wall Street analysts are saying the same thing about Tivo: They are hoping like hell to get picked up by a larger company. Sitting on the fence without making any kind of bold marketplace or cost-cutting moves will result in lower stock value. Lower stock price = bargain in the eyes of many.


I'm sorry; you just don't have any idea whatsoever what you're talking about. Tivo has one of the fiercest poison-pill defenses against a hostile takeover over around. Any time they want to get picked up by a larger company, they can just get rid of their poison-pill.

Contrary to your opinion, TiVo is in it for the long-term, and always has been.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

landrvr1 said:


> The Series 3 is a decent unit. The main problem has always been, and continues to be, the price. It's simply not worth the money; seriously sluggish sales and poor Tivo stock performance is proof positive. Cablecard problems, resolution issues, bugs, etc etc etc are all just annoying distractions from the real issue: The unit is overpriced.


Do you have any data to support your assertation that Tivo hasn't sold as many of these that they want or are you just making things up? I doubt that S3 sales are the only thing driving stock prices (not that we're even supposed to be discussing this).

The street price on the S3 is definitely down, so if you want a deal they are there to be had.

The bottom line is your decision to buy should be based on price and features, not on sales rates and stock prices and that your theory is as wrong now as it was in October.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

Happy new S3 owner myself.

However, I am still in the process of setting everything up, including a new Harmony 890 which has so far been a pain in the neck with "unable to display content".


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

SCSIRAID said:


> bicker said:
> 
> 
> > My problem "went away" -- that's much more disturbing that a box swap being accountable for the remediation of the issue. It points to an inherent lack of robustness in the design.
> ...


If it just "went away" without any changes on your end (wether software or hardware) I would chalk it up to the cableco doing something on their end (wether it was software [billing] or hardware) and not telling you (or lying to you that it wasn't).

It wouldn't be the only time something like this happens (like a auto manufacturer doing a production line change). For those that got a new/replacement S3 and it cured their problem, it could fall under a production line update/change of supplier and not necessarily a defective component.



Adam1115 said:


> What's disturbing is that the boxes that 'failed' all worked fine for several weeks. It remains to be seen whether the replacement boxes will fail again in a few weeks.
> 
> Also it's damn near impossible to get TiVo to swap the box...


I think the rule of thumb is, "If it doesn't fail within the first 90 days of use, the likelihood of faiure quickly approaches nil."



Bighouse said:


> What?!?!? You're claiming that the faliure rate is somewhere between 20% and 40% for an S3?!?!? Where are you getting those figures from?!?!? If any company had a failure rate of 40% for any product line, they'd be out of business the next day.


I don't see Moxi, SA, or NDS out of business 

Going by their POS DVRs and failure rate of the cableCARDs, they should have folded a long time ago 



bicker said:


> No. I'm reporting that a poll indicated that between 20% and 40% of folks trying to get the S3 working with CableCards had trouble. Sorry you got confused about that.


Problem with that poll (or any poll), it's not 100%. Now, if 100% of S3 owners answered that poll, then I'd say TiVo has a problem. And the older that poll is, the more inaccurate it becomes 



landrvr1 said:


> The Series 3 is a decent unit. The main problem has always been, and continues to be, the price. It's simply not worth the money; seriously sluggish sales and poor Tivo stock performance is proof positive. Cablecard problems, resolution issues, bugs, etc etc etc are all just annoying distractions from the real issue: The unit is overpriced.


It's not overpriced. It's more the fact the cable companies lie to their customers about their DVR. It's also the fact that CableCos have a captive audience, wherupon they can "dump" their products on the masses. Remember back in the 70's (or was it the 80's), Japanese car companies (Datsun/Nissan comes to mind), where they were accused [and proven] that they dumped their excess inventory in te US.

Meaning, if cable customers had to actually pay for their DVRs, there would be a greater chance they would opt for an S3. The costs would go up (just as the Comcast/Tivo venture does) due to higher expense by using higher quality components and software. Don't forget higher R&D, because the customer would no longer agree to being a lifetime beta tester.

I myself am glad I waited...price dropped from the MSRP (cost me not much more including the lifetime transfer).

But I waited due to not having an HDTV, so with a digital STB, I was able to record all the channels with the S2...so why upgrade?


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

landrvr1 said:


> Yup, still glad I waited....
> 
> If that unit suddenly showed up at Best Buy with a price tag of $600, you'd get some more customers.


So glad I didn't wait.

Bought two, and my television viewing is SO much more pleasant then it was with the Verizon Moto DVR. No comparison - and the nice TV viewing experience I am now enjoying was worth every penny. Life is too short to suffer with the junk that Verizon provided.

As mentioned - $599 at Costco - DELIVERED.

It may be a "limited time offer", but who cares - it's a real price available today. Why would anyone pay $799 to Circuit City? I'd much rather do business with Costco than Circuit City even if the prices were the same. At a $200 discount, it's not hard to decide.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

pkscout said:


> So basically you will ignore any data point that contradicts your argument.


And invent other data points to support it.


landrvr1 said:


> The market is full of examples where sluggish sales prompted price reductions, and a turnaround. First generation iPods are a classic example.


I can't remember the price of an iPod ever coming down, except when it was superceded by a newer better, and cheaper model. (With the possible exception of the iPod photo). They were exstatic with the sales of the original model, it wasn't a slow seller.

And I'm a very happy S3 owner, from week 1.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

DeathRider said:


> Problem with that poll (or any poll), it's not 100%. Now, if 100% of S3 owners answered that poll, then I'd say TiVo has a problem. And the older that poll is, the more inaccurate it becomes


I think that bicker may be talking about this poll:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=342239

If so (and assuming we have a representative sample) we can also say that there are 96% of users that are working happily with CableCards.

Sounds pretty good to me!

(another happy user)


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

The very title of this thread makes me chuckle.

Look for reasons to be glad about something, and you're sure to find them.

Rationalization, perhaps?


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

GoHokies! said:


> I think that bicker may be talking about this poll:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=342239
> 
> If so (and assuming we have a representative sample) we can also say that there are 96% of users that are working happily with CableCards.
> ...


230 users answered the poll.

Anyone know total S3 activations at this point? I am aware there are multiple activations for some users, which may skew the poll results, since one S3 may cause problems, while another one doesn't.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

DeathRider said:


> 230 users answered the poll.
> 
> Anyone know total S3 activations at this point? I am aware there are multiple activations for some users, which may skew the poll results, since one S3 may cause problems, while another one doesn't.


Between 2 and 5000 times that number.

Not the answer you were looking for, eh?


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

DeathRider said:


> 230 users answered the poll.
> 
> Anyone know total S3 activations at this point? I am aware there are multiple activations for some users, which may skew the poll results, since one S3 may cause problems, while another one doesn't.


I don't really think that we have a way of knowing that.

Since we don't have any better samples, the only wild half guesses we can make are off of polls like that and take them with a whole bucket of salt.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Usually it's just the folks with problems that make the most noise though... so it's nice to see a poll that skews the other way!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Fofer said:


> I can understand your frustration. The price is high. But this post seems to contradict some basic tenets of economics (ie: supply and demand.)


Supply and demand only drives pricing when demand is sufficiently high enough to warrant prices in excess of costs ("value-based pricing"). When demand is sufficiently low, pricing is dictated by costs.

I think the S3 would have been worth it if it worked reliably (i.e., no missing channels issue). Until TiVo issues a fix that makes their system robust enough to overcome whatever was causing the missing channels issue, it's just not work the $600 plus monthly charges gamble.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

DeathRider said:


> If it just "went away" without any changes on your end (wether software or hardware) I would chalk it up to the cableco doing something on their end (wether it was software [billing] or hardware) and not telling you (or lying to you that it wasn't).


I wouldn't. I would chalk it up to hardware that is perhaps too sensitive to fluctuations in signal quality (though within reasonable parameters) or too sensitive to fluctuations in ambient temperature.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

bicker said:


> I wouldn't. I would chalk it up to hardware that is perhaps too sensitive to fluctuations in signal quality (though within reasonable parameters) or too sensitive to fluctuations in ambient temperature.


[Jar Jar Binks]
How Convenient!
[/JJB]


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## Bodie (Mar 12, 2003)

frankygamer said:


> Everyday I use my Series 3, I'm glad I got it. Just sayin'


 +2 (wife also) :up: :up:


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

The only thing missing is HME or TivoTogo and I'd be completely happy. DOh, one more thing would be the ability to download and play video podcasts. Such and odd omission on an otherwise amazing box.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> DOh, one more thing would be the ability to download and play video podcasts. Such and odd omission on an otherwise amazing box.


+1000

"TiVoCasts" ain't cutting it for me. Cool and all... I just need more content and more choice.

The day I can subscribe to this HD video podcast on my S3... will be a great day indeed.

http://feeds.pixelcorps.com/feeds/macbreak1080.xml


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## Joegold (Feb 19, 2007)

landrvr1 said:


> Nope, there's method to the madness...


Madness? THIS IS SPARTA!!!


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Ah, yeah, I'm glad I waited to buy the S3, too.

I betcha it tastes sour, anyway.

but i'm just sayin' 


()


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## Joegold (Feb 19, 2007)

Actually it taste pretty good. Ever since the 8.1 fixed all my problems I feel less inclined to come on to this forum. With out any problems there's really no reason to since a lot of what is being said is very repetitive. I'm guessing the majority of people with working TiVo's are too busy enjoying TV to come on the forum and talk about how great it is. This leaves just the complainers and people looking for fixes like I was.


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## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

landrvr1 said:


> Just sayin.....!


 Bought my Series 3, and then bought the HDTV to use it. (Grin) Didn't think I really wanted HDTV -- but love it and LOVE THE SERIES 3. As with any product, only those having trouble are posting their frustration. And it's great to have a board for them to get help. However, all in all I think this was a great product.

Barbeedoll


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## johnzonie (May 13, 2002)

Just to add another positive note...

Bought the series 3 from Amazon: $659
3-year subscription to Tivo: $299
Dish buyback from Comcast for switch ($400)
Sell HR10-350 on eBay ($250)
Reduction in my programming cost $8 per month for 3 years: ($288)

Net cost for S3: $20

For that I get over DirecTV:
- All networks in excellent HD
- Big OTA antenna removed from roof
- Access to pictures and music from networked PC
- No longer need a phone line
- Amazon Unbox (Still has growing pains but usable)

And the most important of all...

A TiVo which I love and my wife insists on!

Bottom line - I am very satisfied thus far with TiVo.


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

Now if you were just passing through this thread and you looked at the title and how many pages are on this subject, wouldn't you get the idea that there is nothing but negative comments here? But no, in fact the majority of comments are positive about the S3.

I wonder how many people judge this thread by it's title?


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