# I've had a Tivo mini for two hours, and here are my thoughts...



## redbeard25

Just two hours ago, Igot my Tivo mini. I can already tell the simplicity and feature set will blow anything else away. Here are the instant wins for me:

1. Same awesome Tivo interface that I'm used to. Well, basically... we still use SDUI on our Premiere because we're old school. Still, everything's in the right place.

2. No need for another Comcast cable box or card. no extra "outlet" fee and no box rental. The two of those fees together mean I'll recoup my lifetime purchase in 10 months.

3. Everything streams... even the "do not transfer" content, which I can't figure out for the life of me why some of it is flagged that way. It doesn't matter to the mini.

4. Zero setup. I literally plugged the thing in, turned it on, told it to set itself up, and it did. No configuration - it found my premiere and there it worked.

5. No noise, low power. I had a Series 2 with lifetime limping along with a Comcast DTA box on that TV, and it was amazing the difference in sound. I would imagine that my electricity usage will dip with a solid state device on that plug instead of a spinning drive device (that's a half decade old.)

6. Same bat channels, same bat content. I don't have to wonder what's stored on what box. It's all in one place, and the mini just shares it.

It's not for everyone. I'm a Tivo snob since 1999, so I'm weird like that. 

The things that I hope Tivo will do soon:

1. Dynamic Tuner Allocation. It is a little onerous to have to give up a tuner ALL THE TIME for the extender, even when I'm not using the box. I guess they want to avoid turning on the extender and getting a message that says "I'm sorry, all four tuners are in use. What recording do you want to cancel?"

2. Netflix and Amazon. To be able to have those apps would be golden.


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## magnus

Can you watch something that was downloaded from Amazon on the Mini?


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## atmuscarella

magnus said:


> Can you watch something that was downloaded from Amazon on the Mini?


I believe the answer was no.


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## MPSAN

Can you watch something while it is being recorded?


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## jjd_87

MPSAN said:


> Can you watch something while it is being recorded?


Yes


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## innocentfreak

magnus said:


> Can you watch something that was downloaded from Amazon on the Mini?


I think this is an across the board block. I don't think you can use the Stream on that content either.


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## sbiller

Can you watch a web video download (e.g., HD Nation; video podcast(s)) on the Mini?


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## overFEDEXed

sbiller said:


> Can you watch a web video download (e.g., HD Nation; video podcast(s)) on the Mini?


I watched The Apple Byte, on the Mini, that was already recorded on the Elite.
Then I used the Launchpad, from the Mini, to watch CNET. It all looked pretty good.


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## sbiller

overFEDEXed said:


> I watched The Apple Byte, on the Mini, that was already recorded on the Elite.
> Then I used the Launchpad, to watch CNET. It all looked pretty good.


Excellent. An advantage over the Stream. You can't watch downloaded web video's on the stream. They are blocked. You also can't MRS web videos.


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## overFEDEXed

sbiller said:


> Excellent. An advantage over the Stream. You can't watch downloaded web video's on the stream. They are blocked. You also can't MRS web videos.


I don't think that anything is blocked. Well, almost. Even my DVD's, that I ripped and pushed, to the Tivo's. I can watch any of them, where before they were blocked.

I really, really need Netflix though. With two young children, we wear it out in my household. Also my young wife and her "One Tree Hill"


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## sbiller

overFEDEXed said:


> I don't think that anything is blocked. Even my DVD's, that I ripped and pushed, to the Tivo's. I can watch any of them, where before they were blocked.


I'm 99.9% sure Amazon Instant Video downloads would be blocked.


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## rainwater

magnus said:


> Can you watch something that was downloaded from Amazon on the Mini?


Amazon blocks it's content from streaming (MRS). And since the Mini uses the same MRS protocol, it is no different than trying to stream a Amazon download from another premiere (it is blocked).


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## overFEDEXed

sbiller said:


> I'm 99.9% sure Amazon Instant Video downloads would be blocked.


Yes, 100% sure. I just tried it. Got the "Due to Copyright" Message.


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## redbeard25

overFEDEXed said:


> Yes, 100% sure. I just tried it. Got the "Due to Copyright" Message.


Interesting - I don't have any to test, but like the above poster, I got Cnet's "do not transfer" stuff to stream.


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## rainwater

redbeard25 said:


> Interesting - I don't have any to test, but like the above poster, I got Cnet's "do not transfer" stuff to stream.


Do not transfer doesn't prohibit streaming. Amazon's videos do not allow transfer or streaming.


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## Gadfly

I ordered a mini from Tivo last night. Couldn't wait till it gets here and I needed a second one anyway. So I bought one from Best Buy tonight.

Installation was easy and painless. I had it up and running in less than half an hour, most of it waiting for downloading programming information (I think).

Everything works as expected. This Mini is sitting next to a Tivo HD and streams from a Premier upstairs. So I needed to make sure the Tivo remote and Mini remote do not interfere. A little bit searching in old HD manual and following the instructions took care of setting the remotes to different numbers.

It may be my imagination but it seems to me the quality of the picture is not as good as watching it locally. I was hoping that I wouldn't lose any fidelity due to some compression. For the record I am using wired 1 Gbps Ethernet. In particular fast action scenes showed noticeable pixilation and I saw some softness in some other scenes that was similar to watching Netflix HD off the internet. It might have been the show I was watching but I am going to run some side by side tests. I will be really disappointed if the quality of the picture is not the same as watching the show locally.


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## NotNowChief

No, I noticed it as well, the quality is definitely a notch below watching it on the Premiere. Not that bad though. 

Good enough reason to make sure the host DVR is always at the primary TV-watching location.


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## sbiller

NotNowChief said:


> No, I noticed it as well, the quality is definitely a notch below watching it on the Premiere. Not that bad though.
> 
> Good enough reason to make sure the host DVR is always at the primary TV-watching location.


Interesting. I would have expected zero degradation in quality since the Mini should be streaming an exact copy of the Mpeg 2. Perhaps the Elite's THX video design makes a difference?


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## NotNowChief

sbiller said:


> Interesting. I would have expected zero degradation in quality since the Mini should be streaming an exact copy of the Mpeg 2. Perhaps the Elite's THX video design makes a difference?


I didn't think THX was as much as a design as it was a set of standards.

I absolutely insist its a notch below. I understand what you're saying, but there was definitely a tad more blur to the picture, and the color was not as vivid as the original.

I will test the Mini in in a different location in the house over the weekend and see if I get the same result. But, I have the FiOS provided 8-way splitter fed from a home run from my ONT, and all rooms are on their own home run directly from the splitter as well, all cable is RG6 quad shield with matching compression fittings on each and every termination I installed myself when i bought the house. So each and every room of the house is technically the same.

I am already nervous about having that 8-way splitter currently filled as I am on the horizon of beginning to think about finishing my basement, and that will require a 9th feed


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## moyekj

NotNowChief said:


> I didn't think THX was as much as a design as it was a set of standards.
> 
> I absolutely insist its a notch below. I understand what you're saying, but there was definitely a tad more blur to the picture, and the color was not as vivid as the original.
> 
> I will test the Mini in in a different location in the house over the weekend and see if I get the same result. But, I have the FiOS provided 8-way splitter fed from a home run from my ONT, and all rooms are on their own home run directly from the splitter as well, all cable is RG6 quad shield with matching compression fittings on each and every termination I installed myself when i bought the house. So each and every room of the house is technically the same.
> 
> I am already nervous about having that 8-way splitter currently filled as I am on the horizon of beginning to think about finishing my basement, and that will require a 9th feed


 You also need to consider that most TVs require calibration of each and every input. i.e. It's not apples to apples comparison until you have fully calibrated the TV for each device on each input. Personally I don't see a difference between Mini and a Premiere on my small bedroom 40" TV using HDMI, but I did have to calibrate the TV to the Mini since it didn't look right with default TV settings.


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## jcthorne

Its likely the video hardware driving the image is different. The streams are the same, the Premiere does not re-encode the stream at all.

The mini might be loosing bits due to speed of data transfer.


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## NotNowChief

I will test over the weekend on some different TVs in differnet rooms and see if I notice the same.


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## jmpage2

jcthorne said:


> Its likely the video hardware driving the image is different. The streams are the same, the Premiere does not re-encode the stream at all.
> 
> The mini might be loosing bits due to speed of data transfer.


The bitstream should pretty much be identical... the most likely explanation for any perceived difference in PQ would be the previously mentioned different silicon in the Mini vs the Premiere. Also, as mentioned, if you aren't watching both devices on matched inputs on the same TV, the subjective feel of a degraded picture could be just that, subjective opinion.


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## Davisadm

Swap the inputs. Plug the Mini into where you currently have the THD HDMI input, and visa versa. See if there is a difference.


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## BigJimOutlaw

It's a bit-for-bit transfer, it's just outputting differently. It's a different device and TV, so that's to be expected. Calibration is always a good idea.

Back when I first got the Elite I dumped a couple of the AVS HD 709 videos onto it for calibration (the included THX video was too simple for my liking.) I'm going to stream the videos to the Mini to calibrate the other TV.


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## innocentfreak

NotNowChief said:


> I will test over the weekend on some different TVs in differnet rooms and see if I notice the same.


I would if possible swap it with your 4 tuner model. This way you can see how the Mini compares when used on the same input and the same TV as the 4.


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## SOCATivo

Random questions....

1. Do you know where TiVo ship from? I want a mini and want to know how long it will take to get here...

2. Does the mini output THX certified sound (from my XL4)?

3. Anyone used with ethernet over powerline? I have an AppleTV running XBMC and it works OK, but if the mini uses more bandwidth then maybe I will run into problems.

Thanks!!


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## jmpage2

SOCATivo said:


> Random questions....
> 
> 1. Do you know where TiVo ship from? I want a mini and want to know how long it will take to get here...


Mine shipped from Texas. It was here in Colorado two days later via regular ground shipping. I imagine they have warehouses in several places it might ship from any of them.



> 2. Does the mini output THX certified sound (from my XL4)?


It is not "THX certified". Whether that means you can tell any difference in the sound quality is another question entirely.



> 3. Anyone used with ethernet over powerline? I have an AppleTV running XBMC and it works OK, but if the mini uses more bandwidth then maybe I will run into problems.


I'm running MoCA. Don't you have coax where the Mini would go? If powerline can give you 30-40mbps performance without problems then it should be more than enough to service a Mini.


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## HarperVision

NotNowChief said:


> I didn't think THX was as much as a design as it was a set of standards.
> ...


It is a set of standards, but the certified product has to be designed to meet those standards.


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## Dan203

SOCATivo said:


> 3. Anyone used with ethernet over powerline? I have an AppleTV running XBMC and it works OK, but if the mini uses more bandwidth then maybe I will run into problems.


I used powerline for streaming between two TiVos for a while. It worked OK. However the FF/RW were really jumpy and hard to control. I switched to MoCa and it's a lot better.

Edit: The powerline modules I was using were older AV200 ones. The newer AV500 ones might work better.


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## magnus

SOCATivo said:


> Random questions....
> 
> 1. Do you know where TiVo ship from? I want a mini and want to know how long it will take to get here...
> 
> 2. Does the mini output THX certified sound (from my XL4)?
> 
> 3. Anyone used with ethernet over powerline? I have an AppleTV running XBMC and it works OK, but if the mini uses more bandwidth then maybe I will run into problems.
> 
> Thanks!!


The boxes (Tivos) that I have purchased in the past come from Ft. Worth, Texas. They usually get to me the next day (Dallas).


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## overFEDEXed

Dan203 said:


> I used powerline for streaming between two TiVos for a while. It worked OK. However the FF/RW were really jumpy and hard to control. I switched to MoCa and it's a lot better.
> 
> Edit: The powerline modules I was using were older AV200 ones. The newer AV500 ones might work better.


I just tried my Old Actiontec HLE08500-01K HPE100T 85Mbps Powerline Ethernet Adapters. They work pretty good. They don't make this model any more.

I know that I have had these for years, but I figured that I would give them a try and report back so....

UPDATE. After more playing around, it is now freezing up. I will move the adapters around and report again. The Hulu+ do not act this way. It was fine.


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## SOCATivo

Dan203 said:


> I used powerline for streaming between two TiVos for a while. It worked OK. However the FF/RW were really jumpy and hard to control. I switched to MoCa and it's a lot better.
> 
> Edit: The powerline modules I was using were older AV200 ones. The newer AV500 ones might work better.


Thanks Dan. The ones I have are AV200 also 

Maybe I will try MoCa. I do have a cable line there but I'll have to split it (I presume).


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## jmpage2

SOCATivo said:


> Thanks Dan. The ones I have are AV200 also
> 
> Maybe I will try MoCa. I do have a cable line there but I'll have to split it (I presume).


Why would you need to split it? You plug the coax into your Mini and you turn on MoCA on the Premiere, which, it would be assumed already has internet connectivity via ethernet or wireless.


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## Dan203

You'll need to split it if you still want cable running directly to the TV. There is no passthrough port on the Mini.


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## jmpage2

I guess I fail to see the rationale behind hooking up a Mini which has access to all cable channels and also needing to hook up a coax cable to the TV for legacy tuning. In many markets this won't even work because they've eliminated any non encrypted digital channels from being available without a tuning box.


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## SOCATivo

jmpage2 said:


> I guess I fail to see the rationale behind hooking up a Mini which has access to all cable channels and also needing to hook up a coax cable to the TV for legacy tuning. In many markets this won't even work because they've eliminated any non encrypted digital channels from being available without a tuning box.


Dan is right, and you are right. But my wife/kids will get really confused if they use the TV remote and there's nothing on the channels. Plus there's also the (admittedly slim) chance that the 4 TiVo tuners are in use downstairs and someone wants to watch upstairs.

So I will first try to use the 200MB link, then if that fails MoCa and split it...


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## jmpage2

Well my wife is fairly tech-illiterate and even she knows that we don't get channels on the TV tuners any more.

Besides, you can simply put the TV remote away and program the TiVo remote for the Mini to operate your TV. If all the tuners on your Elite are in use then they can still watch the gobs of recorded stuff that is likely to be on there.


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## SOCATivo

jmpage2 said:


> Well my wife is fairly tech-illiterate and even she knows that we don't get channels on the TV tuners any more.
> 
> Besides, you can simply put the TV remote away and program the TiVo remote for the Mini to operate your TV. If all the tuners on your Elite are in use then they can still watch the gobs of recorded stuff that is likely to be on there.


Well, we do get channels on the TV. Some analog ones from the cable and also clear QAM.

I'll have remotes for the mini, receiver, Apple TV (xbmc) and TV now. I will probably need to sort out something there...


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## Ken R

I'm about ready to pull the trigger and re-enter the TIVO world after 5 or 6 years of having to give it up. (Went Verizon FIOS as soon as it came out . . . hate their DVR user interface). 

One of my concerns is the speed of channel surfing. Right now, my Fios channel changing is pretty quick. A few months ago, though, it was taking up to eleven seconds to change up or down one channel. Then, a new firmware was downloaded into the DVR and channel changing is good again. But it has made me a little gun-shy now, knowing how slow channel changes can be. 

So is channel changing with the TIVO and especially via the TiVo Mini acceptable? 

Ken


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## jmpage2

2-3 seconds with the Premiere, 3-5 seconds with the Mini. Guide surfing is less painful than "up/down" channel surfing.


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## wmhjr

I've also had the mini for a couple hours (installed, that is - received it yesterday to try it out) and my observations are relatively consistent.

1) When following the instructions, using Ethernet everywhere, I found the setup to be easy and worked well.

2) Picture quality IS slightly less than natively on the Premier. I even used the same ports, same HDMI cables. The only difference is the mini. Tuning the TV does not correct it - it's really an issue of definition. It is, however, acceptable for what it is. I'm OK with it for a non-premium display. It's not premium, though.

3) I'm now very confused about the tuner allocation. According to what I read, and what I asked, the tuner consumed by the mini on the premier would ONLY be unavailable by the XL4 if and when the mini was using it for "live TV". I was told expressly that if this was the case, and if 4 recordings were scheduled at a particular time on the XL4, then I'd get one of those messages asking if I wanted to change channels or continue with live TV. According to the documentation with the mini (which I never saw on presales marketing material) and according to what the XL4 indicated while turning on "tuner sharing" capability, this is not the case. The language there seems to indicate that my 4 tuner XL4 is (for recording) now ALWAYS just a 3 tuner XL4. I don't know if this is just poor syntax by Tivo for this process, or whether it's poor explanation of how it works during presales. Does anyone know for sure?

The UI on the mini is snappier than on the XL4. Browsing "now playing" is much faster than on the XL4. Tuner is slower, but I suppose that's to be expected.

Can't say much more than that. A lot will depend on the answer about tuner allocation from you guys. If in fact it does reduce the maximum recording tuner capacity to 3 even if live TV is not being watched at that time on the mini, it's kind of a showstopper at least at the moment. I'd need to make some other changes to consider the mini.


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## jmpage2

It is "common knowledge" that dynamic tuner allocation (what you describe in list item 3) is not supported until a future update. I would be rather surprised if someone here told you otherwise. More than likely they misunderstood your question.

So yes, if you allow a tuner for live TV viewing, your 4 tuner box becomes a 3 tuner box, regardless of whether or not the Mini is viewing live TV.


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## moyekj

wmhjr said:


> 2) Picture quality IS slightly less than natively on the Premier. I even used the same ports, same HDMI cables. The only difference is the mini. Tuning the TV does not correct it - it's really an issue of definition. It is, however, acceptable for what it is. I'm OK with it for a non-premium display. It's not premium, though.


Every device is going to be different and you have to calibrate the TV differently even if using same input, cables, etc. The Mini is no exception. Once calibrated I find no dramatic difference between Mini and Premiere on same TV (and yes the TV inputs are calibrated differently for each, i.e. different settings for contrast, brightness, hue, etc).


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## wmhjr

jmpage2 said:


> It is "common knowledge" that dynamic tuner allocation (what you describe in list item 3) is not supported until a future update. I would be rather surprised if someone here told you otherwise. More than likely they misunderstood your question.
> 
> So yes, if you allow a tuner for live TV viewing, your 4 tuner box becomes a 3 tuner box, regardless of whether or not the Mini is viewing live TV.


I never asked the question here directly. I did ask it directly to Tivo. I was quite clear in my question - excruciatingly clear. I even asked that they validated with tech support, which they did. So, not only was I not clear, but (once again with this product) it is abundantly clear that Tivo internally has done an incredibly horrible job in training, product material, marketing, documentation, etc.

So, I'll amend my review thus far.

The mini is absolutely not (IMHO) a "whole house solution" from Tivo unless you are willing to disable functionality on existing 4 tuner Tivo devices for each mini you put in your home. Since you cannot record from a mini - period, it means that the mini actually reduces every homes recording capability by a linear measurement. Every mini kills a recording tuner permanently. That's a big deal. It means it diminishes the value of the host XL4.

It's now a coin toss for me. I'd say it's at least 50% likely that the mini will get sent back. I sure don't want to lose a recording tuner.

Thanks for the info. FWIW, can you point me to where people would really know the TRUE capabilities and effects of the mini? It seems that more than any other product I've seen in years, there is far far too much confusion concerning the mini. I've got clear documentation (and ticket numbers) which prove that not even Tivo internally understands their own product. I haven't seen a single "listing" here. Looking through multiple threads, it's hard to pick out the "supported" usage patterns and capabilities from the "non standard" stuff (like trying to force using it with a 2 tuner box). Not being lazy here - seriously haven't seen a single repository of one place to really "know".


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## wmhjr

moyekj said:


> Every device is going to be different and you have to calibrate the TV differently even if using same input, cables, etc. The Mini is no exception. Once calibrated I find no dramatic difference between Mini and Premiere on same TV (and yes the TV inputs are calibrated differently for each, i.e. different settings for contrast, brightness, hue, etc).


As I said, I went through tuning (calibration). I have not been able to make the mini output quite as good resolution as with the native Premier(e). YMMW.


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## wmhjr

BTW, I also said it was perfectly fine, but I would probably not be as happy with it were it in my "primary" viewing location where surround, etc is. Of course, I also want Amazon download, etc capability in those locations so the mini would not be appropriate there to begin with.


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## moyekj

wmhjr said:


> Every mini kills a recording tuner permanently. That's a big deal. It means it diminishes the value of the host XL4.


 Not so if you don't want it to and allocate 0 tuners to the Mini on the host XL4 (which implies no live TV on the Mini which I don't care about). For the few times where I may want "live TV" on the Mini, for now, since dynamic tuner allocation is not available, I will setup a recording on the host unit and then stream to the Mini to get almost live TV on the Mini. This is a stop gap solution until dynamic tuning is available on the Mini.


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## wmhjr

Also, one other thing. While I'm still a bit confused about the tuner/recording thing for the mini (just noticed that it appears to let me schedule a future recording through the guide).

Anyway, so far outside of the cost including the service fees, the mini was quite easy to set up, the display seems good enough, the UI is faster than ANY of my premier boxes, and streaming seems to work perfectly fine. Can't complain about any of those things at this point at least. I strongly believe that the cost is not appropriate, but that's a general TiVo issue where I think they're being very shortsighted, which could easily end up losing them major market share over time. What appears to be the "loss" of a recording tuner is simply not acceptable IMHO. But, giving credit where it's due, the general functions otherwise seem to work very well.


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## wmhjr

moyekj said:


> Not so if you don't want it to and allocate 0 tuners to the Mini on the host XL4 (which implies no live TV on the Mini which I don't care about). For the few times where I may want "live TV" on the Mini, for now, since dynamic tuner allocation is not available, I will setup a recording on the host unit and then stream to the Mini to get almost live TV on the Mini. This is a stop gap solution until dynamic tuning is available on the Mini.


I understand that's what "you" want, but it's not advertised that way. If most people don't want to permanently give up live TV it's probably not an option that the general public purchasing it will accept. So, for the most common, and most commonly advertised and marketed situations, it appears to be a fact that it degrades the capability of your existing XL4.

Given this design, I can understand why Tivo chooses to not support 2 tuner boxes. Doing so would further expose the design limitations of the Tivo Mini, and the "whole house" experience. I'm beginning to think more and more that the limited detail around the use and capabilities of this product is a deliberate ploy on Tivos part, designed to minimize the design constraints in hope that most people "don't really need 4 tuners". However, it's a bit counterintuitive given the increasing number of tuners being requested.

Bottom line here is that for many people, I cannot see any possibility of a "whole house solution" that only has a single Tivo DVR and multiple minis. An XL4 with 2 minis means you have only 2 recording tuners, or else you can never ever watch live content in the other rooms.

Or, am I missing something.


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## Arcady

If I had my wish, it would be to disable live TV on all my boxes, at least as far as what the TiVo does when it goes idle. Why should I have to hit the TiVo button twice every time I sit down to watch TV? Why not be sitting ready with my NPL instead? I can always hit the Live TV button if there's a nuclear war or something I want to see live.


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## HarperVision

What I don't get is what the limitation is to set a recording on the tuner that's allocated to a mini? Why don't they make it so the first recording on a mini gets scheduled to that tuner only, then at that point if someone tries to watch it live, pop up the normal "all tuners busy" message and then give the customer a choice (wow, what a concept!) which of the recordings to stop, cancel, etc. I'm sure there's some technical reasons why not, they can't be THAT clueless, right?


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## wmhjr

Arcady said:


> If I had my wish, it would be to disable live TV on all my boxes, at least as far as what the TiVo does when it goes idle. Why should I have to hit the TiVo button twice every time I sit down to watch TV? Why not be sitting ready with my NPL instead? I can always hit the Live TV button if there's a nuclear war or something I want to see live.


But with the mini, you can't - the only way to not lose a recording tuner is to permanently give up the ability to watch live content on the mini..There is no "live TV" button available.

If you want the "live TV button" to even be available, you have to give up a recording tuner on the XL4. Meaning it's not there to use even if the mini is powered off.


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## Arcady

No, what I mean is I don't care about Live TV at all. If I had a Mini it would get ZERO tuners allocated. And if I had my way, Live TV would not display on a regular TiVo without explicitly pressing the "Live TV" button.


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## Dan203

I'd actually prefer it if the main TiVo went to a screen saver like the Mini, instead of just dumping to live TV. Not because of any tuner allocation issues but because turning on the TV and having it blare whatever is on live TV at that moment is annoying.


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## wmhjr

HarperVision said:


> What I don't get is what the limitation is to set a recording on the tuner that's allocated to a mini? Why don't they make it so the first recording on a mini gets scheduled to that tuner only, then at that point if someone tries to watch it live, pop up the normal "all tuners busy" message and then give the customer a choice (wow, what a concept!) which of the recordings to stop, cancel, etc. I'm sure there's some technical reasons why not, they can't be THAT clueless, right?


And that is EXACTLY how Tivo sales and Tivo tech support described it. They said:

1) If you're watching live TV on the mini and the XL4 needs all 4 tuners to record stuff in your "to do" list, then a message would pop up on the mini display asking if you wanted to change channels or cancel the recording.

2) If all 4 tuners were being used and you wanted live TV on the mini, you would be asked if you wanted to stop the recording.

Very specific questions - very specific answers. Both seemed just as inaccurate as the answers I got about general streaming from the non-host Tivo Premiers on the network.

Assuming that this is NOT what happens, it just cost me a tuner which I don't really want to give up. But neither do I want to give up live TV in the room I'm speaking of. I thought I would be able to eliminate a STB in a room that perhaps I can't without replacing one of my Tivos with one that has more tuners. So, the "$99" mini is FAR from $99. It will probably turn out to be almost 10 times that amount if I stay with it.


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## wmhjr

Arcady said:


> No, what I mean is I don't care about Live TV at all. If I had a Mini it would get ZERO tuners allocated. And if I had my way, Live TV would not display on a regular TiVo without explicitly pressing the "Live TV" button.


I understand. For you that's great. But that's not how it is advertised or marketed, and I seriously doubt that it fills the definition of "whole house" experience. There are other ways that do not require the cost or subscription of a mini to deliver what you're talking about. If it lacks tuner capability, then it has effectively delivered nothing of value IMHO. I would never consider it under those circumstances and doubt that the majority of the public voting with their wallets would either.


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## Arcady

It sounds like they are describing what happens after they activate dynamic tuner allocation. I guess someone gave the support staff the wrong info for the currently shipping product. But if they actually have that wrong information, maybe it is coming sooner rather than later?


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## Arcady

I understand that you want Live TV. I have never watched live TV in the bedroom or den, except when I forget to press TiVo,TiVo before pressing the power button.


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## aaronwt

wmhjr said:


> I understand that's what "you" want, but it's not advertised that way. If most people don't want to permanently give up live TV it's probably not an option that the general public purchasing it will accept. So, for the most common, and most commonly advertised and marketed situations, it appears to be a fact that it degrades the capability of your existing XL4.
> 
> Given this design, I can understand why Tivo chooses to not support 2 tuner boxes. Doing so would further expose the design limitations of the Tivo Mini, and the "whole house" experience. I'm beginning to think more and more that the limited detail around the use and capabilities of this product is a deliberate ploy on Tivos part, designed to minimize the design constraints in hope that most people "don't really need 4 tuners". However, it's a bit counterintuitive given the increasing number of tuners being requested.
> 
> Bottom line here is that for many people, I cannot see any possibility of a "whole house solution" that only has a single Tivo DVR and multiple minis. An XL4 with 2 minis means you have only 2 recording tuners, or else you can never ever watch live content in the other rooms.
> 
> Or, am I missing something.


You can still have 3 recording tuners, you just can't have both TiVo Minis vieiwng live TV concurrently. This is how mine are set up. I share one tuner, from one of my Elites, between both of my Minis.


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## HarperVision

FYI, if you have multiple minis you can still just allocate one tuner to them, which will then be shared amongst your minis. At that point if more than one mini tries to use the live tuner you'd get the already in use message.

DOH, someone beat me to it!


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## moyekj

Those answers from TiVo are bogus - it looks like they were already factoring in dynamic tuning which is not currently available. Guess next time you'll know to study up information on the TCF instead of relying on information from TiVo. The current limitations of the TiVo Mini were well spelled out here in advance and it behaves as I expected it to based on the information collected here. I understand your frustrations and all I can say is if it doesn't live up to what you were told and/or your expectations then send it back.


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## wmhjr

aaronwt said:


> You can still have 3 recording tuners, you just can't have both TiVo Minis vieiwng live TV concurrently. This is how mine are set up. I share one tuner, from one of my Elites, between both of my Minis.


OK, thanks. That's great to know. So it means that you can add TWO mini devices to an XL4/P4 and only lose one XL4/P4 tuner. The downside is that you always have that tuner lost, and that you can only watch live TV on both mini devices at the same time.

I still don't fully understand why the mini seems to allow me to schedule a recording from the guide. Does that mean that I just can't manage recording on that tuner from the XL4 but I can for recording through the mini?

I also still think it's a very serious disadvantage for the mini that TiVo is not very transparent about - and that it's probably deliberate in terms of being misleading. Adding the mini probably in reality pushes people into needing yet another Tivo DVR, which they are not being honest about. So, it really isn't a $99 device. It's a $250 (including service) plus an additional Premier plus another $400 for service. So in no case assuming you can't afford to lose a tuner will it really cost less than $800 if you're right on the edge of tuner capacity.


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## SOCATivo

wmhjr said:


> But with the mini, you can't - the only way to not lose a recording tuner is to permanently give up the ability to watch live content on the mini..There is no "live TV" button available.
> 
> If you want the "live TV button" to even be available, *you have to give up a recording tuner on the XL4*. Meaning it's not there to use even if the mini is powered off.


I think I will hold off a purchase because of this 'feature'.


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## wmhjr

moyekj said:


> Those answers from TiVo are bogus - it looks like they were already factoring in dynamic tuning which is not currently available. Guess next time you'll know to study up information on the TCF instead of relying on information from TiVo. The current limitations of the TiVo Mini were well spelled out here in advance and it behaves as I expected it to based on the information collected here. I understand your frustrations and all I can say is if it doesn't live up to what you were told and/or your expectations then send it back.


moyekj,

I want my VENDOR who is required to support the product to have basic product capability understanding. If Tivo cannot do that, then their staff is utterly worthless. If that's the case, I have serious support issues.

There is a lot of info on TCF, and as you are well aware, I did a great deal of studying here before ordering one. However, even here it's hard to separate what is "supported" vs what "works right now". We've had this conversation before.

I'm still deciding about the mini in my case. I will say that almost certainly, if I keep it I'm going to have to pick up another premier. I'm extremely unhappy with that idea. It's more likely that I'll send it back. To that end, I also think it is not only inappropriate - but frankly unethical - for Tivo to fail to disclose themselves the details around this product. They are at this point being what I strongly think points to deliberately misleading to an extent that it goes way beyond dishonesty.


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## wmhjr

BTW, I've played with this a little more. I selected some content playing live on the mini, and then hit record. I got a message (via the mini) that it had been added to my "to do" list. I then went to Tivo central, and now playing. That content shows up as recording. So, I'm thoroughly confused as to how the recording stuff is going on with the mini at this point. I guess I'm assuming that I just used one of the "other 3 tuners" on the XL4 to generate the recording? If that's the case, then I just consumed two tuners? Geez.


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## jmpage2

Yes, you just consumed two tuners if you chose to record something you were watching live on the Mini.


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## aaronwt

wmhjr said:


> BTW, I've played with this a little more. I selected some content playing live on the mini, and then hit record. I got a message (via the mini) that it had been added to my "to do" list. I then went to Tivo central, and now playing. That content shows up as recording. So, I'm thoroughly confused as to how the recording stuff is going on with the mini at this point. I guess I'm assuming that I just used one of the "other 3 tuners" on the XL4 to generate the recording? If that's the case, then I just consumed two tuners? Geez.


Yes, it will never use the tuner deidcated to the Mini for a recording. So say you have 30 minutes of a program in the buffer while watching on a Mini. If you hit record, it will use one of the three remaining tuners on the P4 and start recording from that point. You won't get the buffer included in the recording, like you would when using a Premiere.

Hopefully when Dynamic Tuner Allocation is enabled, it will behave differently.


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## wmhjr

OK, thanks for the clarification. That's what I guessed - not good. Looking more and more unless they actually commit to dynamic tuner allocation being released soon, that the mini is simply not an acceptable solution for me at least. Or at least without VERY significant additional investment. It's hardly the bargain that Tivo is trying to make it out to be.


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## mr_smits

wmhjr said:


> OK, thanks for the clarification. That's what I guessed - not good. Looking more and more unless they actually commit to dynamic tuner allocation being released soon, that the mini is simply not an acceptable solution for me at least. Or at least without VERY significant additional investment. It's hardly the bargain that Tivo is trying to make it out to be.


Tivo is in a difficult situation with the Mini and their entire ecosystem. It is confusing as hell right now. Not very Tivo like. HOPEFULLY, the confusion will begin to go away as the restrictions and limitations are resolved. This includes: dynamic tuner allocation, Netflix on the Mini, no longer selling 2 tuner Premieres, some understanding of how 2 tuner Premiers can be used with the Mini, Android support for Stream, browser support for Stream, integrated Stream in the next Premiere model that may be out in the fall, including OTA support for the new model, and others I can't think of right now. That is the To Do list. It's a lot.


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## Dan203

We have gotten official comments that said both dynamic tuner allocation and Android support for the Stream are being worked on right now. So those are coming eventually.

Their recent FCC filing strongly points towards a new TiVo platform coming in the fall and it would be very, very, foolish of them to release any new TiVos that don't support the Mini. I expect that the base model will have at least 3 tuners (1 record, one local live, 1 Mini live) probably 4, and there will be a high end 6 tuner model for cable subscribers.

Built in Stream capabilities are likely to exist in the new platform, but they not required as the current Stream works with any TiVo and is available now. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the new TiVos were released with the hardware for this but with it disabled at launch if there are any sort of time constraints.


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## SOCATivo

I think it prudent to wait if you feel there are new devices in the near future. I would not put it past TiVo to change the design requiring a newer Mini version to talk to the newer platforms. I would also not put it past them to not deliver on the dynamic tuner allocation firmware update for the current Minis. There is not a large number of adoptions of the Mini right now and their voices would not be very loud, nor would they be good candidates for upgrading to the later model anyway (bleeding edge devotees of this forum excepted!). TiVo could offer a trade in / subscription switch to a later version if needed.

I think the entry level would likely be a 4 tuner device if TiVo want to push their whole home concept (and it is a good one, especially as it obviates the need for multiple cable cards from the cable company). I also think a high end 6 tuner is a good guess, since the current mCards already support up to 6 tuners.

I do want to move to a Mini but after the recent clarifications here I am glad I have held off.


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## wmhjr

I agree with some of these comments. My additional take, after owning Tivo product since 2007, is this. I don't trust Tivo any more in terms of delivering on solutions, fixes, or quality. I believe what I see, and will only invest in what they "officially" say they'll support. Fees are far too high at this point to deal with anything else, as the downside is far too great. Tivo is way behind in key feature sets, and quality has been less than stellar. The mini, while having promise, is frankly a niche solution at this point because of all of the caveats with it - and frankly because the release has been botched so monumentally badly. Resale of older Tivos with lifetime, IMHO, will suffer significantly compared to historical trends, as they will be so crippled by non-support and an inability to handle any multi-anything strategy, meaning that pricing compared to other offerings has just taken a turn for the worst.

I already have an XL4 and a Premier 2, as well as an HD. The mini may or may not stay. In order to keep it, I'll need to figure out what to do with my non-XL4 machines, as the HD becomes useless (I was going to replace it with a mini) and losing that tuner and the HD capacity (it has a 750gb drive) creates a gap. I'd just pick up another regular premium, but Tivo lifetime or monthly service per unit makes that ridiculously expensive. So, it's probably going to be either get rid of the premier and the HD, pick up an XL4, or return the mini. That is a HUGE cost to pay for a "$99" device. We'll see. I know every situation is different but every time Tivo pulls this kind of stunt, it pushes me closer and closer to walking out the door.

BTW, typing this as my newest Premier, about 4 months old now, just spontaneously rebooted again.


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## Dan203

wmhjr said:


> Resale of older Tivos with lifetime, IMHO, will suffer significantly compared to historical trends, as they will be so crippled by non-support and an inability to handle any multi-anything strategy, meaning that pricing compared to other offerings has just taken a turn for the worst.


I doubt it will change anything. You can sell a 7+ year old S3 unit with lifetime right now for >$300. The hardware alone is basically useless, but the lifetime service retains much of it's value. And the Premiere units DO support the multi-room stuff. The only thing they do not support is being a Mini host. If you have a Premiere on your network you can still stream to the Mini from it and you can still stream shows from any other Premiere units to it. It still has significant value as a second DVR.



wmhjr said:


> II already have an XL4 and a Premier 2, as well as an HD. The mini may or may not stay. In order to keep it, I'll need to figure out what to do with my non-XL4 machines, as the HD becomes useless (I was going to replace it with a mini) and losing that tuner and the HD capacity (it has a 750gb drive) creates a gap. I'd just pick up another regular premium, but Tivo lifetime or monthly service per unit makes that ridiculously expensive. So, it's probably going to be either get rid of the premier and the HD, pick up an XL4, or return the mini. That is a HUGE cost to pay for a "$99" device. We'll see.


I don't understand how you expected this to work. You knew you were replacing a TiVo HD, with 2 tuners and 750GB drive, with a Mini that has no tuners and no local storage. You must have realized there would be a gap?

The Mini is not meant for your particular scenario. It's intended for people who are happy with the number of tuners and GBs they have and simply want to extend TiVo viewing to another room. It was never intended to be a replacement for a full fledged DVR.

That being said let's look at the math...

$700 - Premiere XL4
$250 - TiVo Mini
------
$950
-$300 - TiVo HD
-$450 - Premiere
------
$200

So for $200 you get the ability to stream shows to all rooms, rather then the transfer the THD can do, you have one less To Do List and Season Pass Manager to manage, and you get to return one of your CableCARDs saving $3/mo.

It's actually not that bad of a trade-off.


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## wmhjr

Dan203 said:


> I doubt it will change anything. You can sell a 7+ year old S3 unit with lifetime right now for >$300. The hardware alone is basically useless, but the lifetime service retains much of it's value. And the Premiere units DO support the multi-room stuff. The only thing they do not support is being a Mini host. If you have a Premiere on your network you can still stream to the Mini from it and you can still stream shows from any other Premiere units to it. It still has significant value as a second DVR.
> 
> I don't understand how you expected this to work. You knew you were replacing a TiVo HD, with 2 tuners and 750GB drive, with a Mini that has no tuners and no local storage. You must have realized there would be a gap?
> 
> The Mini is not meant for your particular scenario. It's intended for people who are happy with the number of tuners and GBs they have and simply want to extend TiVo viewing to another room. It was never intended to be a replacement for a full fledged DVR.
> 
> That being said let's look at the math...
> 
> $700 - Premiere XL4
> $250 - TiVo Mini
> ------
> $950
> -$300 - TiVo HD
> -$450 - Premiere
> ------
> $200
> 
> So for $200 you get the ability to stream shows to all rooms, rather then the transfer the THD can do, you have one less To Do List and Season Pass Manager to manage, and you get to return one of your CableCARDs saving $3/mo.
> 
> It's actually not that bad of a trade-off.


Actually, I wouldn't say that at all. What I was talking about is the value of other units, such as the THD. The Premier is a current unit. Already, however, the THD has rapidly diminishing value, even though it has lifetime.

I also don't agree with the math at all. If I look at eBay, I don't see THDs with lifetime actually SELLING for $300. I see them listed, and I see the buy it now auctions ending without selling. I see some for $180, etc. And every day, week, month, that value goes down as far as I can guess. Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places. However, I'm logged into ebay right now. I truly believe that the ability - or inability - to stream along with using the mini - will seriously diminish the value of older Tivos. Far, far more than what we've experienced in the past. Frankly, if somebody things otherwise, please let me know. I've got a THD with lifetime and an upgraded drive that I'd be perfectly happy to sell for $300. Let me know, and I'll get it boxed up and ship it tomorrow.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=tivo+hd+lifetime&_sop=1

You also discount the fact that you totally lose a tuner for recording in the beginning. Tivo is being disingenuous in not really talking about how a "house" trying to use one or more of the mini devices just lost potentially 25% of it's recording capability. And let's face it. If you're adding tVs, you just may well have varied recording interests - which is exactly why people want more tuners.

The lack of dynamic tuner allocation is a core weakness in the product line to start with. Given the costs, it's really hard to get around that.

Bottom line here is that TiVo is really trying to play catch-up for years of complacency and arrogance, thinking nobody would ever catch up. Problem is, in terms of whole house experience, they didn't catch up. they leap frogged Tivo. Now it's Tivo trying to continue driving revenues up by taking advantage of existing customers who have no other opportunity or option unless they unload TiVo. With Roku, etc, that day may be getting closer if they keep this up.


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## Dan203

wmhjr said:


> Actually, I wouldn't say that at all. What I was talking about is the value of other units, such as the THD. The Premier is a current unit. Already, however, the THD has rapidly diminishing value, even though it has lifetime.
> 
> I also don't agree with the math at all. If I look at eBay, I don't see THDs with lifetime actually SELLING for $300. I see them listed, and I see the buy it now auctions ending without selling. I see some for $180, etc. And every day, week, month, that value goes down as far as I can guess. Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places. However, I'm logged into ebay right now. I truly believe that the ability - or inability - to stream along with using the mini - will seriously diminish the value of older Tivos. Far, far more than what we've experienced in the past. Frankly, if somebody things otherwise, please let me know. I've got a THD with lifetime and an upgraded drive that I'd be perfectly happy to sell for $300. Let me know, and I'll get it boxed up and ship it tomorrow.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=tivo+hd+lifetime&_sop=1
> 
> You also discount the fact that you totally lose a tuner for recording in the beginning. Tivo is being disingenuous in not really talking about how a "house" trying to use one or more of the mini devices just lost potentially 25% of it's recording capability. And let's face it. If you're adding tVs, you just may well have varied recording interests - which is exactly why people want more tuners.
> 
> The lack of dynamic tuner allocation is a core weakness in the product line to start with. Given the costs, it's really hard to get around that.
> 
> Bottom line here is that TiVo is really trying to play catch-up for years of complacency and arrogance, thinking nobody would ever catch up. Problem is, in terms of whole house experience, they didn't catch up. they leap frogged Tivo. Now it's Tivo trying to continue driving revenues up by taking advantage of existing customers who have no other opportunity or option unless they unload TiVo. With Roku, etc, that day may be getting closer if they keep this up.


If you look at the completed listing you'll see that most TiVo HD units with lifetime sell for around $300. Ones with upgraded drives actually get a bit more. It's hard to gauge from open listings because most people wait until the last minute to bid.

As for the Mini's shortcomings... I completely agree that the way it works now, with it having to permanently steal a tuner, is less then desirable and not really a viable replacement for a box at the secondary TV unless you're also upgrading the primary TiVo from a 2 tuner to a 4 tuner unit. (you actually gain a recording tuner in that scenario)

I also agree that TiVo rested on it's laurels for far too long and is now playing catch up. However in the last year they've done more then they had done in the last 3 combined, so I have some optimism going forward. Although I can understand why you may not share in that optimism.


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## wmhjr

I'll keep looking. At least I'll probably be selling the THD if I can get those prices.

BTW, thanks for the civil discussion.


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## slowbiscuit

I sold a THD with a 1TB drive for $375 shipped a few months ago, so it's not going down that much. I use buy it now instead of auction though, a lot of people want to buy now and not bid. Post yours for $350 and see what happens (but do it right now, feebay's fees are going up a good bit soon).


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## wmhjr

slowbiscuit said:


> I sold a THD with a 1TB drive for $375 shipped a few months ago, so it's not going down that much. I use buy it now instead of auction though, a lot of people want to buy now and not bid. Post yours for $350 and see what happens (but do it right now, feebay's fees are going up a good bit soon).


Thanks, I'll do that. A 1TB drive definitely makes it more valuable. I have two THDs with lifetime right now (long story). I'll likely be putting both of them on eBay very soon. One is a standard drive, the 2nd is a larger drive. I really don't expect to get much more than $250 or so for the standard drive if I'm really lucky. Maybe a good bit less than that. The larger drive will hopefully bring closer to $300.


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## wmhjr

BTW, I'm wondering specifically if the release of the mini, and streaming, will lead to significantly lower THD prices now, or soon. That's my bet. I mean, how many people on this site will be willing to pay $300 knowing that the mini can never see the THD, that it can't stream, and that if the mini can't see it, chances are the next version of the Tivo will not either. People will have to be very comfortable knowing it will effectively be an island, right?


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## lessd

wmhjr said:


> BTW, I'm wondering specifically if the release of the mini, and streaming, will lead to significantly lower THD prices now, or soon. That's my bet. I mean, how many people on this site will be willing to pay $300 knowing that the mini can never see the THD, that it can't stream, and that if the mini can't see it, chances are the next version of the Tivo will not either. People will have to be very comfortable knowing it will effectively be an island, right?


New people just getting into TiVo have to pay $500 for Lifetime + something for the hardware, so IMHO the Series 3 will go for $300 to $400 for some time now. There is only a small group of people in USA that even know about the Mini, and 90% of them are on this forum.


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## wmhjr

lessd said:


> New people just getting into TiVo have to pay $500 for Lifetime + something for the hardware, so IMHO the Series 3 will go for $300 to $400 for some time now. There is only a small group of people in USA that even know about the Mini, and 90% of them are on this forum.


That could be, and hopefully is, true. But I wonder if the dimensions are changing now that you consider that just a couple years ago, the big difference between an original S3 for example, and an HD or XL, was pretty much THX and/or drive size. Or, the ability to use a single multistream card vs 2 single stream cards. Pretty much until right now, there really wasn't that much you couldn't do with an earlier box that you could not do with a brand new box. Now, there are very large differences. If we were talking about them spending $150 total, I'd for sure agree. But at $300, people would really need to be driven to Tivo to pay it, and if they are, why in the future will they settle for no streaming, no whole house, no mini, etc? You're right that very few people know about the mini, but consumers are being flooded with advertisements about whole house solutions from everybody else - including sat.

It's something I'm wondering about. My guess is that an HD with lifetime is going to be taking a pretty measurable resale hit pretty soon. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## SOCATivo

Just a thought. Now with 6 tuner devices available, I doubt there's any way TiVo will bother to implement dynamic tuner allocation.

I am glad (and sad) I didn't buy this device, but I would still if they implemented this and didn't tie up one of my XL4 tuners.


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## Philmatic

DTA for the Roamio line is out as of today, it's "coming soon" for the Premiere.


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## SOCATivo

Wow. I hope it does come soon! Can't justify a new machine/sub but will add to my Premiere...


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