# Running MoCA and DeCA on Same Cable?



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

I'm thinking of running both MoCA and DeCA on the same cable throughout my home that currently only has DeCA on it right now, running to each room where it's broken out for my switch going to minis and other ethernet connected equipment.

I want to do this so I can run my local LAN on one (DeCA) and my VPN on the other (MoCA).

I know they run on different frequency bands, each to not interfere with its respective TV service signals. Any reason anyone can think of why this wouldn't work, or any good ideas or suggestions to make it work optimally?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

As long as the Ethernet leg of each is completely separate, to prevent a loop, it should work. Also make sure to get MoCa 1.1 stuff, as the MoCa 2.0 standard encompasses all the frequencies from DeCa and MoCa into one standard and could cause a conflict.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> As long as the Ethernet leg of each is completely separate, to prevent a loop, it should work. Also make sure to get MoCa 1.1 stuff, as the MoCa 2.0 standard encompasses all the frequencies from DeCa and MoCa into one standard and could cause a conflict.


But you can select the operating frequency on MoCA 2.0 gear though, correct? If so, then just choose one in the old 1.1 band.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

I'm also thinking to maybe use a satellite diplexer to separate them, as mentioned to do in other MoCA threads to help signal quality.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm using one of those on my Bolt so that I can combine the cable coax, which has an active cable signal, with the OTA antenna and still use the Bolt's built in MoCa support.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

It looks like I would have to use these D-Link DXN-221 MoCA adapters, as they seem to be the only ones that offer the lower bands that I would need to avoid interfering with the existing deca (475-625 MHz) and DirecTV SWiM frequencies (974 - 1790 MHz) on my cables. It doesn't appear that the Actiontec or Netgear ones go below about 1150MHz. The D-Link I linked goes down to 800MHz, which is perfect to slip in between all those other freqs.

Trouble is, they're extremely hard to find. Only one seller on eBay who has 4. I asked to buy 3 of them. We will see how it goes. Anyone here have some of these collecting dust in their storage areas that you're willing to sell?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I can confirm the Actiontec ones only support D channels, which are above 1150Mhz. I was just messing with the config utility on mine yesterday. At least the MoCa 1.1 ones. Maybe the 2.0 ones offer more choices?

Edit: Nope, they say 1125 MHz - 1425 MHz on the spec sheet for the 2.0 adapter.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

FWIW, Channel Master Moca adapters are also D band, in case you were considering those.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mdavej said:


> FWIW, Channel Master Moca adapters are also D band, in case you were considering those.


No, it looks like these are the bands that I would need it to support to avoid interference:

A1	875 MHz
B1	900 MHz
C1	925 MHz
C2	950 MHz


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

It seems like these TrendNet TPA-311's will work too, but they're HPNA instead of MoCA, which I don't know much about yet. It says they use 12 - 44 MHz as their baseband freqs.

Anyone used them before?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That could interfere with cable. Some systems use that frequency range to communicate with the head end. It's known as "out of bounds" or OOB signaling.

Edit: I might be wrong on this. Based on a quick Google it seems they use frequencies lower then that for the return and somewhere in the 74-75Mhz range for the down stream, so you might be OK


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

I don't have cable TV signals on that section of my coax network, so it's moot anyway. It will just have DirecTV's DECA and SWiM and then maybe MoCA band A1 or this HPNA device.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I can confirm the Actiontec ones only support D channels, which are above 1150Mhz. I was just messing with the config utility on mine yesterday. At least the MoCa 1.1 ones. Maybe the 2.0 ones offer more choices?
> 
> Edit: Nope, they say 1125 MHz - *1425 MHz* on the spec sheet for the 2.0 adapter.


1425!?!

Wow, thanks for the heads-up. I hadn't looked closely enough to notice that the ECB6000 was only 6 channels and topped-out at 1425 MHz. (per pg. 9 of its user manual)

edit: p.s. Though now I'm wondering how they're fitting the 6 channels between 1125 & 1425 MHz.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

HarperVision said:


> It seems like these TrendNet TPA-311's will work too, but they're HPNA instead of MoCA, which I don't know much about yet. It says they use 12 - 44 MHz as their baseband freqs.
> 
> Anyone used them before?


I believe Uverse is HPNA based. Running at lower frequencies allows HPNA to have a range of 1km, maybe even as far as a mile. HPNA on coax is supposed to allow 200Mbps MAC rates, compared to 175Mbps for MoCA 1.1. VHF/UHF diplexers would probably allow clean separation when mixing HPNA with DECA.

Another possibility to consider is using multiple MoCA networks on the same coax. I believe this is specifically allowed under the MoCA standard. If you assign the channels rather than using auto-select, then using non-overlapping bands allows independent MoCA networks to co-exist. This would be especially useful for someone who wanted two MoCA networks while still using CATV video signals.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

HarperVision said:


> No, it looks like these are the bands that I would need it to support to avoid interference:
> 
> A1	875 MHz
> B1	900 MHz
> ...


These frequencies might be too close to DECA frequencies to allow diplexers to make a clean separation without interference.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> That could interfere with cable. Some systems use that frequency range to communicate with the head end. It's known as "out of bounds" or OOB signaling.
> 
> Edit: I might be wrong on this. Based on a quick Google it seems they use frequencies lower then that for the return and somewhere in the 74-75Mhz range for the down stream, so you might be OK


CableCard specs call out 70-130MHz as the search range for downstream OOB signals. I believe upstream is at lower frequencies, but I think the upstream isn't used for TiVo CableCards.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> I can confirm the Actiontec ones only support D channels, which are above 1150Mhz. I was just messing with the config utility on mine yesterday. At least the MoCa 1.1 ones. Maybe the 2.0 ones offer more choices?
> 
> Edit: Nope, they say 1125 MHz - 1425 MHz on the spec sheet for the 2.0 adapter.


Interesting that Actiontec stays below 1425, since the MoCA 1.1 spec goes up to 1525 and the MoCA 2.0 spec goes up to 1675.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> 1425!?!
> 
> Wow, thanks for the heads-up. I hadn't looked closely enough to notice that the ECB6000 was only 6 channels and topped-out at 1425 MHz. (per pg. 9 of its user manual)
> 
> edit: p.s. Though now I'm wondering how they're fitting the 6 channels between 1125 & 1425 MHz.





snerd said:


> Interesting that Actiontec stays below 1425, since the MoCA 1.1 spec goes up to 1525 and the MoCA 2.0 spec goes up to 1675.


The ECB6000 (and perhaps all "standard" MoCA 2.0 adapters, including the BOLT?) appears to stick to "Band D," per the following image from the MoCA 2.0 specs. I'm now wondering if Actiontec simply has a typo in their manual/specs and they *meant* to say 1125-1525 MHz, not 1425, as this would solve the "6 channels" puzzle, since Band-D channels D2-7 (see pg.8 of specs) would fit within this range.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> I'm thinking of running both MoCA and DeCA on the same cable throughout my home that currently only has DeCA on it right now, running to each room where it's broken out for my switch going to minis and other ethernet connected equipment.
> 
> I want to do this so I can run my local LAN on one (DeCA) and my VPN on the other (MoCA).
> 
> I know they run on different frequency bands, each to not interfere with its respective TV service signals. Any reason anyone can think of why this wouldn't work, or any good ideas or suggestions to make it work optimally?


I was just beginning to review the white paper linked by snerd over in Dan's thread re: a problematic MoCA adapter, and came across the following at the top of page 10:
_Only one channel per band is used on a physical network, though multiple MoCA networks may be formed over the same coaxial cable plant using different bands. _​So it would seem that what you're looking to do is explicitly within the bounds of the MoCA design, though my expectation that one could run multiple MoCA networks in the D-band using different channels doesn't seem to be valid.

That said, the proof's in the pudding, and who knows what idiosyncrasies you'll encounter between the different hardware implementations.

I'll be interested to see what you learn.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

krkaufman said:


> The ECB6000 (and perhaps all "standard" MoCA 2.0 adapters, including the BOLT?) appears to stick to "Band D," per the following image from the MoCA 2.0 specs. I'm now wondering if Actiontec simply has a typo in their manual/specs and they *meant* to say 1125-1525 MHz, not 1425, as this would solve the "6 channels" puzzle, since Band-D channels D2-7 (see pg.8 of specs) would fit within this range.


Looking at Table 2.1 on page 8, the check marks in the "MoCA 1.1" column are on D1-D6, which covers 1125MHz to 1425MHz. Keep in mind the MoCA 2.0 channels allow 25MHz increments in the frequency setting, thus D1, D1a, D2, D2a, etc. in the table. Also, the frequencies listed in the leftmost column are mid-band frequencies, so band D7 covers 1425MHz-1475MHz. So, I don't think this is a typo.

It is kind of strange that MoCA 1.1 channels are non-overlapping while MoCA 2.0 channels overlap, but that is how the spec appears to work. Perhaps the reason for the 25MHz increment is to facilitate a 25MHz dead band to separate two bonded 100MHz channels, for an overall bonded channel width of 225MHz as shown in the diagram.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

krkaufman said:


> So it would seem that what you're looking to do is explicitly within the bounds of the MoCA design, though my expectation that one could run multiple MoCA networks in the D-band using different channels doesn't seem to be valid.


Good catch, I was thinking that two D channels could be used as independent MoCA networks, but now I think you're right about them needing to be in separate bands.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

snerd said:


> Looking at Table 2.1 on page 8, the check marks in the "MoCA 1.1" column are on D1-D6, which covers 1125MHz to 1425MHz. Keep in mind the MoCA 2.0 channels allow 25MHz increments in the frequency setting, thus D1, D1a, D2, D2a, etc. in the table. Also, the frequencies listed in the leftmost column are mid-band frequencies, so band D7 covers 1425MHz-1475MHz. So, I don't think this is a typo.


"typo" may not be the right characterization, but the frequency range doesn't make sense, relative to either the spec'd range for the standard "D band" or the paired "6 channels" statement.

That table is what I was working from, and, if including all the possible overlapping MoCA 2.0 channels in the stated frequency range, I count 9 channels (centered on 1175-1375); if the "6 channels" statement was a reference to the MoCA 1.1 channels, then I'd call it an error, rather than a typo, because that first MoCA 1.1 channel is inapplicable to MoCA 2.0.

It's just speculative, anyway, since I don't have one of these adapters.


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## Eskimo2 (Dec 14, 2015)

HarperVision said:


> I want to do this so I can run my local LAN on one (DeCA) and my VPN on the other (MoCA).


I'm guessing you're wanting to use different subnets for each network? Otherwise, there's really no security risk in running a VPN tunnel across "untrusted" subnets.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

snerd said:


> I believe Uverse is HPNA based. Running at lower frequencies allows HPNA to have a range of 1km, maybe even as far as a mile. HPNA on coax is supposed to allow 200Mbps MAC rates, compared to 175Mbps for MoCA 1.1. VHF/UHF diplexers would probably allow clean separation when mixing HPNA with DECA.
> 
> Another possibility to consider is using multiple MoCA networks on the same coax. I believe this is specifically allowed under the MoCA standard. If you assign the channels rather than using auto-select, then using non-overlapping bands allows independent MoCA networks to co-exist. This would be especially useful for someone who wanted two MoCA networks while still using CATV video signals.


DECA is the MoCA E-Band (500 - 600 MHz), so that's basically what I am doing anyway. DirecTV just calls their hardware and version of it "DECA" (DirecTV Ethernet-to-Coaxial Adapter).



snerd said:


> These frequencies might be too close to DECA frequencies to allow diplexers to make a clean separation without interference.


DECA is between 475 - 625 MHz, so I think a 200 MHZ separation should be sufficient, unless the harmonics are too high of a level, but the first order harmonic wouldn't be until 950 MHz anyway, and I will try running it in the 8xx MHz range.



krkaufman said:


> I was just beginning to review the white paper linked by snerd over in Dan's thread re: a problematic MoCA adapter, and came across the following at the top of page 10:
> _Only one channel per band is used on a physical network, though multiple MoCA networks may be formed over the same coaxial cable plant using different bands. _​So it would seem that what you're looking to do is explicitly within the bounds of the MoCA design, though my expectation that one could run multiple MoCA networks in the D-band using different channels doesn't seem to be valid.
> 
> That said, the proof's in the pudding, and who knows what idiosyncrasies you'll encounter between the different hardware implementations.
> ...


I'm not trying to run them in the same band anyway, so it's moot. I specifically want to run the extra network as low as I can (HPNA) or in between DECA and SWiM frequencies. (MoCA A1 or B1 band)



Eskimo2 said:


> I'm guessing you're wanting to use different subnets for each network? Otherwise, there's really no security risk in running a VPN tunnel across "untrusted" subnets.


Yes, they would be different subnets. It's not so much about security as it is about isolation so I can have one MoCA device to plug in my local LAN to the gear that I want that to go to, and then the VPN signal to the other equipment that needs to be on my Philly subnet, like my Premiere XL that talks to the Roamio Plus there, and possibly a PS3 and/or FireTV to get the Vue service.


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## Eskimo2 (Dec 14, 2015)

Gotcha..

In reading some of the linked documents, it looks like MoCA 2.0 allows for 2 different channels, but personally, I'd probably do what you're proposing.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> I don't have cable TV signals on that section of my coax network, so it's moot anyway. It will just have DirecTV's DECA and SWiM and then maybe MoCA band A1 or this HPNA device.


Won't MoCA collide with SWiM? I would think this could work iff you have only DECA and MoCA on the cables, and no SWiM.

Can you find MoCA adapters with selectable channels that also support the low-frequency MoCA channels (i.e. DECA channels)? That way you could effectively have separate DECA channels for each LAN.

Do the DirecTV DECA adapters pass 802.1q tagged VLANs? That would be an easier way to keep the two networks separate, with a smart switch plugged into every DECA adapter.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Or with this ridiculously complicated stuff, do you have the option of just getting a drill out and running a pair of CAT-6 drops to each location?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> Won't MoCA collide with SWiM? I would think this could work iff you have only DECA and MoCA on the cables, and no SWiM.
> 
> Can you find MoCA adapters with selectable channels that also support the low-frequency MoCA channels (i.e. DECA channels)? That way you could effectively have separate DECA channels for each LAN.


If you read the whole thread, you'd see that I already covered that:


HarperVision said:


> It looks like I would have to use these D-Link DXN-221 MoCA adapters, as they seem to be the only ones that offer the lower bands that I would need to avoid interfering with the existing deca (475-625 MHz) and DirecTV SWiM frequencies (974 - 1790 MHz) on my cables. It doesn't appear that the Actiontec or Netgear ones go below about 1150MHz. The D-Link I linked goes down to 800MHz, which is perfect to slip in between all those other freqs.
> 
> Trouble is, they're extremely hard to find. Only one seller on eBay who has 4. I asked to buy 3 of them. We will see how it goes. Anyone here have some of these collecting dust in their storage areas that you're willing to sell?





Bigg said:


> Do the DirecTV DECA adapters pass 802.1q tagged VLANs? That would be an easier way to keep the two networks separate, with a smart switch plugged into every DECA adapter.


Sorry, I'm not familiar with that at all.



Bigg said:


> Or with this ridiculously complicated stuff, do you have the option of just getting a drill out and running a pair of CAT-6 drops to each location?


I just like to build my own headend really, mixing and matching services, like we discussed awhile back when I integrated DirecTV using my QAM/ATSC Modulator.

I guess it comes from me working in broadcast TV before and hotels now where they do this type of thing to get the best of all services.

....or maybe it's just me geeking out!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Here is a good image showing that maybe HomePNA is the best thing for me to use:










....or at worst the A1/B1 Band.

What MoCA bands does a TiVo support? As in, can I change the MoCA band that my Bolt is using down to the low E-Band or A-Band, or is it also limited to only the D-Band like the ActionTec and other MoCA Adapters are?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> If you read the whole thread, you'd see that I already covered that:


Are those the DECA frequencies? If they are, then that's your solution. But I don't think any other MoCA bands will not interfere with either.



> Sorry, I'm not familiar with that at all.


VLANs? If the DECA adapters can pass 802.1q tags, VLANs would be the perfect solution for what you're trying to do.



> I just like to build my own headend really, mixing and matching services, like we discussed awhile back when I integrated DirecTV using my QAM/ATSC Modulator.
> 
> I guess it comes from me working in broadcast TV before and hotels now where they do this type of thing to get the best of all services.
> 
> ....or maybe it's just me geeking out!


Right. It sounds like Ethernet would be sooooo much easier though!



HarperVision said:


> Here is a good image showing that maybe HomePNA is the best thing for me to use:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That just shows Ka/Ku. Are you sure that includes SWiM?


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

HarperVision said:


> DECA is between 475 - 625 MHz, so I think a 200 MHZ separation should be sufficient, unless the harmonics are too high of a level, but the first order harmonic wouldn't be until 950 MHz anyway, and I will try running it in the 8xx MHz range.


My comment was based on DECA II frequency range of 500-850MHz as described here. My concern was for using, say, the Holland DPD2 diplexer to join/separate the two networks. This diplexer has a 40MHz-806MHz band for low frequencies and a 950MHz-2150MHz band for high frequencies, so it would probably work with DECA+MoCA combination, as long as the DECA side can live without 8xx MHz.

The problem with MoCA A1,B1,C1,C2 bands is that they all land squarely in the "dead zone" of the diplexer. If you use any of those MoCA bands for one network, I don't know how you will be able to separate it from the other network, unless you're willing to design/build a custom diplexer.

Speaking of diplexers, I found this Holland page. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a source for buying either the UVSJ or HLSJ models, which is a pity since any of those would work well for separating HPNA and DECA networks.

The STVC *might* work for HPNA+MoCA, but might have problems with HPNA which starts as low as 4 MHz.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

HarperVision said:


> Here is a good image showing that maybe HomePNA is the best thing for me to use:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One thing with HomePNA is that it is really a bunch of standards mushed together. It was originally designed for phone lines, and later extened to coax. My notes list the phone-line version as using 4MHz-28MHz while the coax version uses 4MHz-52MHz. I don't know if it adapts if part of the frequency band is missing.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

snerd said:


> My comment was based on DECA II frequency range of 500-850MHz as described here. My concern was for using, say, the Holland DPD2 diplexer to join/separate the two networks. This diplexer has a 40MHz-806MHz band for low frequencies and a 950MHz-2150MHz band for high frequencies, so it would probably work with DECA+MoCA combination, as long as the DECA side can live without 8xx MHz. The problem with MoCA A1,B1,C1,C2 bands is that they all land squarely in the "dead zone" of the diplexer. If you use any of those MoCA bands for one network, I don't know how you will be able to separate it from the other network, unless you're willing to design/build a custom diplexer. Speaking of diplexers, I found this Holland page. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a source for buying either the UVSJ or HLSJ models, which is a pity since any of those would work well for separating HPNA and DECA networks. The STVC might work for HPNA+MoCA, but might have problems with HPNA which starts as low as 4 MHz.


Yeah these are pretty much my thoughts too. Thanks for the tips!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

That chart is wrong for today's setups. It would only be valid today for the four lines running from the dish to the SWiM multiswitch if you didn't have a SWiMLine SWiM-5, -8, or -13 LNB. Those the frequencies that the old multiswitch systems would use with 4x8s and 4x16s. Today, everything in the house would be SWiM, which, according to the Google, runs at 2.3mhz and 974mhz to 1790mhz. That's why the older boxes that could do SWiM or the two-wire setups needed B-band filters when converted from 2-line conventional multiswitches to SWiM in order to accommodate DECA, so that the DECA signal wouldn't end up getting into the satellite tuner on the B-band.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> That chart is wrong for today's setups. It would only be valid today for the four lines running from the dish to the SWiM multiswitch if you didn't have a SWiMLine SWiM-5, -8, or -13 LNB. Those the frequencies that the old multiswitch systems would use with 4x8s and 4x16s. Today, everything in the house would be SWiM, which, according to the Google, runs at 2.3mhz and 974mhz to 1790mhz. That's why the older boxes that could do SWiM or the two-wire setups needed B-band filters when converted from 2-line conventional multiswitches to SWiM in order to accommodate DECA, so that the DECA signal wouldn't end up getting into the satellite tuner on the B-band.


Yes but for my purposes it works because it still shows those higher freqs being used by DTV which I need to avoid for the setup I'm discussing here.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> Yes but for my purposes it works because it still shows those higher freqs being used by DTV which I need to avoid for the setup I'm discussing here.


You're talking DECA? Because the satellite frequencies are just completely wrong for a modern SWiM system.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> You're talking DECA? Because the satellite frequencies are just completely wrong for a modern SWiM system.


I'm talking the freqs between 950 - 2300MHz that are pretty much where the SWiM freqs (control plus 8 SWiM channels) are now.

The lower freqs where deca is (475 - 625MHz) I already know about because that's what I'm using now. I want to just hopefully add moca to it, or HPNA.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> I'm talking the freqs between 950 - 2300MHz that are pretty much where the SWiM freqs (control plus 8 SWiM channels) are now.
> 
> The lower freqs where deca is (475 - 625MHz) I already know about because that's what I'm using now. I want to just hopefully add moca to it, or HPNA.


The lower edge of that middle Ku block is about the same as SWiM, nothing else is.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> The lower edge of that middle Ku block is about the same as SWiM, nothing else is.


It doesn't matter, I'm not putting anything up there anyway. That's why I'm looking into HPNA or MoCA bands A1 or B1.


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