# Rhapsody: Tivo Has Eliminated Us From Series 3 and 2



## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

According to Rhapsody spokesman, Tivo has refused to update "firmware" for Series 3 and Series 2, rendering both permanently unusable for Rhapsody.

"As far as the series 2 and 3 devices, Tivo has chosen not to update the firmware for those devices, meaning Rhapsody will no longer be accessible on them. This was a call that Tivo made, not us, and yeah, it sucks."
http://forum.rhapsody.com/rhapsody/...tm_medium=email&utm_source=reply_notification Edited to add that you have to click on "View 6 more comments" about 3 or 4 posts from the bottom.

As for Tivo, it has not said one word to its loyal customers as to this. Not one word!


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

The quote you give is nowhere found in the link you provided AND there are responses from Tivo people so your 'not one word' complaint is plainly false.

/As a side note, who knew Rhapsody was still around?


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

TolloNodre said:


> The quote you give is nowhere found in the link you provided AND there are responses from Tivo people so your 'not one word' complaint is plainly false.
> /As a side note, who knew Rhapsody was still around?


Sorry you couldn't find the quote, but it's there. 
Click on the link again. About 3 or 4 posts from the bottom, click on "View 6 more comments." There is the quote in all its gory detail. See?

And, just as I said in my post above, Tivo has said not one word about Rhapsody being permanently discontinued on Series 3 and 2. Obviously, there is one post from TivoStephen as to the problem in general. But even he stated that Tivo was working on the solution, not working on discontinuing Rhapsody.

Hopefully, somebody from Tivo will post that the Rhapsody rep was misinformed. [Edited to Add that, unfortunately, Tivo found it more in its corporate interest to eliminate Rhapsody on Tivo 2, Tivo 3, and Tivo HD, than to update its software to accomodate whatever software changes Rhapsody made. Tivo, for now, has continued Rhapsody support for the Premiere and only the Premiere.]


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

ohmark said:


> According to Rhapsody spokesman, Tivo has refused to update firmware for Series 3 and Series 2, rendering both permanently unusable for Rhapsody.
> 
> "As far as the series 2 and 3 devices, Tivo has chosen not to update the firmware for those devices, meaning Rhapsody will no longer be accessible on them. This was a call that Tivo made, not us, and yeah, it sucks."
> http://forum.rhapsody.com/rhapsody/...tm_medium=email&utm_source=reply_notification
> ...


I would not be surprised by this. Development on those platforms is dead and has generally been so for a while. In reality Rhapsody has it backwards, they chose to change the way their service works and end the previous methods. I am sure Rhapsody could either develop a fix for the older Tivos or pay Tivo to do so, they choose not to. Rhapsody just wants something for free. It is a shame that they outright lied in the post laying the blame on Tivo. It is unfortunate for those who use the service.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Based on some of the postings, it seems that either Rhapsody dropped the ball or the device makers just didn't care enough to make the necessary changes. I don't think Rhapsody has a very large subscriber base. Tivo can't even get the bare basics finished these days. I wouldn't expect them to support older Tivo models based on their history.

As unfortunate as this situation is for Rhapsody/S2/S3 owners, my suggestion is to find a different provider for your music. There is no shortage of them and plenty of ways to play music through your Tivo. 

I have to agree with the other poster. Who even knew Rhapsody was still around? Normally, I would be critical of Tivo for an issue like this but I think they did the right thing here. Slowly killing Rhapsody is a good move.


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## windsurfdog (May 1, 2009)

"Who even knew Rhapsody was still around?" As a Rhapsody user for the last 5-6 years, I knew...but your point is VERY well taken. Outside of a media blitz they had a month or 2 ago, none of the device manufacturers are mentioning Rhapsody like they mention Napster, Pandora, et al. 

I've tried Napster and MOG and, to me, neither has as satisfying experience as Rhapsody. Yet Rhapsody appears to be losing market share...even to Pandora-like services that are but a subset of Napster/Rhapsody/Spotify/MOG-like services. 

Rhapsody seems to putting the noose to its own neck.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

The Rhapsody representative made a comment on that thread that if they did not make the change it would prevent Rhapsody from working on any home audio device. That sounds like it was a legal requirement they had to fulfull, possibly from thier split with Real Networks.

Regardless, this episode just reenforces my opinion of Tivo as a company with terrible communication skills and no regard for their retail customers. Buyer beware.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

DrewS3 said:


> The Rhapsody representative made a comment on that thread that if they did not make the change it would prevent Rhapsody from working on any home audio device. That sounds like it was a legal requirement they had to fulfull, possibly from thier split with Real Networks.
> 
> Regardless, this episode just reenforces my opinion of Tivo as a company with terrible communication skills and no regard for their retail customers. Buyer beware.


+1 on all counts... it doesn't look there's much Rhapsody could have done, and it's just a business decision on Tivo's end. Frankly, Tivo has their hands full doing anything for Series 4 owners, let alone series 2/3. Not saying I like it, but that's the way it is.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

I dumped Rhapsody years ago. They were overpriced, the app was badly bloated and completely unnecessary, and it was hard to manage and unnecessarily limited. It was a real dog turd of an app, and the service wasn't much better.

That there might be patent issues between them and Real is entirely possible, but that is no excuse for implementing yet another proprietary protocol. Proprietary protocols are almost always the result of corporate greed, and if such maneuvering on their part winds up bankrupting them, then it is no more than they deserve.

AS far as my music enjoyment is concerned, I either rip my CDs to .mp3 files or else purchase .mp3 files from on-line services and run Galleon to deliver to my TiVos.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

TheWGP said:


> +1 on all counts... it doesn't look there's much Rhapsody could have done, and it's just a business decision on Tivo's end.


Bullcrap. What Rhapsody could have done, what they *SHOULD* have done, presuming they were forced into doing something, was to implement a standard, open source protocol.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> Bullcrap. What Rhapsody could have done, what they *SHOULD* have done, presuming they were forced into doing something, was to implement a standard, open source protocol.


What difference would an open source protocol make? I doubt Tivo would implement a new protocol on the S2/S3/HD even if there was source code freely available.

Rhapsody's licensing agreements with the music copyright holders probably require some sort of encrypted transfer or other specific implementation, like Netflix. It is hard to imagine it wouldn't, since Rhapsody gives much more complete access to an artist's work than the streaming radio services like Pandora.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> I dumped Rhapsody years ago. They were overpriced, the app was badly bloated and completely unnecessary, and it was hard to manage and unnecessarily limited. It was a real dog turd of an app, and the service wasn't much better.


The service is pretty unique, and except for Napster and recently Spotify, I don't know of any other that offers unlimited access to such a large library of music. It doesn't seem hard to manage to me, and I have found a lot of new music through it. I quickly gave up on Tivo as a client though, so maybe your experience was worse for that.


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## TiVoJerry (Jul 26, 2005)

I can confirm that an update is rolling out to Series4 boxes which will get Rhapsody up and running again. Unfortunately, due to recent technical limitations with the Rhapsody application Series3 and Series2 users will no longer have access to Rhapsody from their TiVo DVR. We apologize for the inconvenience.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

DrewS3 said:


> What difference would an open source protocol make? I doubt Tivo would implement a new protocol on the S2/S3/HD even if there was source code freely available.


First of all limiting the horizon to the interaction between a service like Rhapsody and any single platform like TiVo results in a narrow perspective. Such perspectives are rarely very productive, especially in the long run. Speaking WRT Tivo or any specific platform, however, open source protocols mean any developer can produce code that will interface the service with the hardware. Who cares if the hardware manufacturer implements anything, or not? Hardware manufacturers almost always produce lousy code.



DrewS3 said:


> Rhapsody's licensing agreements with the music copyright holders probably require some sort of encrypted transfer


Because it is required to be encrypted and / or secure doesn't mean it can't be open source. Public key encryption, the strongest and most secure encryption ever developed and available to non-government entities is open source.



DrewS3 said:


> or other specific implementation, like Netflix. It is hard to imagine it wouldn't, since Rhapsody gives much more complete access to an artist's work than the streaming radio services like Pandora.


Irrelevant. Making the content secure is in no way related to preventing 3rd party developers from producing applications. They just want to control licensing of the content *AND* the platforms used to access it along with the code employed by the platforms.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

DrewS3 said:


> The service is pretty unique


That it was. I haven't used it for years, and it is entirely possible it has changed much since then, but being unique is not in and of itself an advantage. Most of what it was designed to do was of no interext to me, and at $10 a month it was costing me a fair amount of money for nothing.



DrewS3 said:


> and except for Napster and recently Spotify, I don't know of any other that offers unlimited access to such a large library of music.


It wasn't unlimited. I could not play it on my DVD players or in my car using a USB stick. It wouldn't work on the wireless media player I had, nor on my TiVo at the time. I don't even think there was a Linux version, at least not back then.



DrewS3 said:


> It doesn't seem hard to manage to me, and I have found a lot of new music through it. I quickly gave up on Tivo as a client though, so maybe your experience was worse for that.


No, that was not any real part of my decision. Actually, it was, but only in the sense that I did have applications that worked well with my TiVos as well as every other device I had. There was no content of interest to me available through the service that I had not already purchased either from Rhapsody or later through Amazon, and Amazon presented much less of a hassle.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> Irrelevant. Making the content secure is in no way related to preventing 3rd party developers from producing applications. They just want to control licensing of the content *AND* the platforms used to access it along with the code employed by the platforms.


Well, we don't know what protocol Rhapsody is using. I don't anyway. Maybe it is an open source protocol. But I don't think it matters much to us, because I'm sure the intent of the copyright holders would be to prevent us from being able to decrypt the streams. They would want to enforce which devices could decrypt and which could not. Assuming it was an open source protocol and the decryption keys were baked into the device's software, how would that benefit us, the end users? We would still be dependant on Tivo to update thier software and unable to patch/proxy it ourselves.

As for Rhapsody, it fits my listening habits pretty well. I listen almost exclusively at home or at work where a streaming connection is available, and I am always listening to new artists and albums. Sometimes I will buy them if they become a favorite, but the streaming is enough 95% of the time.


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

TiVoJerry said:


> Unfortunately, due to recent technical limitations with the Rhapsody application Series3 and Series2 users will no longer have access to Rhapsody from their TiVo DVR. We apologize for the inconvenience.


Inconvenient???? Are you serious? You have eliminated the sole reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 2, and a major reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 3

Tivo Jerry, I want you to know that over the course of Tivo's lifetime, I bought an original series Tivo, a Sony Tivo, a Series 2, an HD Tivo, and a Tivo Premiere. I am really upset over your company's total failure to communicate with its customers for the past month over this. And I'm stupified by your use of the word "inconvenient" to describe a corporate decision that resulted in complete elimination of a service for which at least some of your customers purchased Tivo hardware and Tivo lifetime subscriptions.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

TiVoJerry said:


> I can confirm that an update is rolling out to Series4 boxes which will get Rhapsody up and running again. Unfortunately, due to recent technical limitations with the Rhapsody application Series3 and Series2 users will no longer have access to Rhapsody from their TiVo DVR. We apologize for the inconvenience.


I know you guys can update the TiVo software, but are TiVos even capable of having their *firmware* updated? Without a soldering iron?

Do Rhapsody know even less about Tivos than I?


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

ohmark said:


> Inconvenient???? Are you serious? You have eliminated the sole reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 2, and a major reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 3
> 
> Tivo Jerry, I want you to know that over the course of Tivo's lifetime, I bought an original series Tivo, a Sony Tivo, a Series 2, an HD Tivo, and a Tivo Premiere. I am really upset over your company's total failure to communicate with its customers for the past month over this. And I'm stupified by your use of the word "inconvenient" to describe a corporate decision that resulted in complete elimination of a service for which at least some of your customers purchased Tivo hardware and Tivo lifetime subscriptions.


I think your statement is correct only if you state "elimination of a service for which at least one customer purchased TiVo hardware and lifetime subscription". I don't know whether TiVo or Rhapsody is at fault when it comes to Rhapsody not working after Rhapsody made changes to their service on models prior to the TiVo Premiere. I do know whose fault it is that you have paid for service you can no longer receive, your fault. I learned long ago to never purchase an expensive product for an intended use that is not the primary use and not guaranteed. I won't even reread the terms of service because I knew when I purchased my TiVoHD with lifetime that all of these additional services are at the mercy of the service provider and not within TiVo's control.

I don't care whether Rhapsody believes TiVo could have adapted to the new service requirements and points their finger at TiVo. It may be possible that TiVo will decide to spend the time and money necessary to get Rhapsody working again, assuming it is possible, and rescind the announcement of the end of the service but I doubt it.

Only the primary intended service and services provided directly by TiVo are within TiVo's control. I couldn't have imagined anybody would have purchased a TiVo for Rhapsody before you made the claim and now I can't imagine anybody else did. If you do something like that again, be sure to read the terms of service and understand whether or not this ancillary purpose you want the product for is guaranteed to work for the life of the product being purchased.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

There is actually very little functionality in a Tivo that is completely under the control of Tivo. The Tivo Desktop functionality is all I can think of right now.
The core DVR functions depend on the over-the-air format and/or cable cards. We saw the Series 1 abandoned when the over-the-air broadcasts transistioned to digital, even though supporting the digital set-top boxes would have been a trivial update for Tivo. I expect that if there are any changes or updates to cable card we will likewise see older Tivos lose support.


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## windsurfdog (May 1, 2009)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I couldn't have imagined anybody would have purchased a TiVo for Rhapsody before you made the claim and now I can't imagine anybody else did.


I bought a Tivo for its primary functionality. I bought a Tivo over a Moxie primarily because Tivo supported Rhapsody which I had been already using with another home audio device for about 5 years. The Tivo replaced the other device for Rhapsody functionality.

So, now you have 2 people whose Tivo purchase was influenced by Rhapsody. I also purchased a Denon AV receiver over others because of Rhapsody functionality and now Denon refuses to support their older devices. Now I have no Rhapsody on my Denon and I will not be purchasing Denon products in the future.

So, I didn't buy either product for primary Rhapsody functionality but it certainly influenced my choices.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

unitron said:


> I know you guys can update the TiVo software, but are TiVos even capable of having their *firmware* updated? Without a soldering iron?
> 
> Do Rhapsody know even less about Tivos than I?


What good would a firmware update be? All the firmware on the PROM chip does is basically boot the OS from the HDD. All the smarts are in the OS and application.


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I think your statement is correct only if you state "elimination of a service for which at least one customer purchased TiVo hardware and lifetime subscription". I don't know whether TiVo or Rhapsody is at fault when it comes to Rhapsody not working after Rhapsody made changes to their service on models prior to the TiVo Premiere. I do know whose fault it is that you have paid for service you can no longer receive, your fault. I learned long ago to never purchase an expensive product for an intended use that is not the primary use and not guaranteed. I won't even reread the terms of service because I knew when I purchased my TiVoHD with lifetime that all of these additional services are at the mercy of the service provider and not within TiVo's control.
> 
> I don't care whether Rhapsody believes TiVo could have adapted to the new service requirements and points their finger at TiVo. It may be possible that TiVo will decide to spend the time and money necessary to get Rhapsody working again, assuming it is possible, and rescind the announcement of the end of the service but I doubt it.
> 
> Only the primary intended service and services provided directly by TiVo are within TiVo's control. I couldn't have imagined anybody would have purchased a TiVo for Rhapsody before you made the claim and now I can't imagine anybody else did. If you do something like that again, be sure to read the terms of service and understand whether or not this ancillary purpose you want the product for is guaranteed to work for the life of the product being purchased.


Thanks for your response, and you make some good points. I would agree that few would buy a current Tivo, and buy lifetime service (or pay the monthly charge) only for access to Rhapsody (for an additional monthly fee). In my case, Tivo offered me $99 lifetime service for a Series 2 that I had no particular use for. My Tivo 2 was going to be honorably retired, but I decided to accept the offer solely because I could use the Tivo for Rhapsody for my home sound system. There are internet radios I could have used instead (Squeezebox, etc.), but using Tivo 2 for this had the advantage of a relatively large screen display for the service and the $100 fee was less than I would have paid for other hardware. Also, while I would guess that it's true that not many people purchased a Tivo and paid for monthly service exclusively to access Rhapsody, I would also guess that the ability to access Rhapsody played a role in the purchase decisions of some customers.

None of the above excuses Tivo's abysmal failure to communicate with its customers for over a month, during which time clicking on Rhapsody produced a message from Tivo that the app was undergoing "Scheduled Maintenance." And TivoJerry's use of the word "inconvenience" to describe the complete elimination of the service for Tivo 2 and Tivo 3/HD seems, well, inappropriate.

Oh, and I'm looking at a Vizio Blue Ray or smaller screen tv with VIA (Vizio internet apps), which include Rhapsody.

And my Tivo 2?; I'm thinking of using it to stream remotely on the internet with a Vulkano Flow.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

unitron said:


> I know you guys can update the TiVo software, but are TiVos even capable of having their *firmware* updated? Without a soldering iron?
> 
> Do Rhapsody know even less about Tivos than I?


In this context, "firmware" is being broadly used to mean, "code that can be updated in the field". From the administrative viewpoint, of course, it is software, but traditionaly embedded consumer devices did not have "software", only "hardware" and "firmware". Essentially, the usage glosses over the distinction between storage on a hard drive and a PROM.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

DrewS3 said:


> I expect that if there are any changes or updates to cable card we will likewise see older Tivos lose support.


Perhaps, but that's a little different kettle of fish. CableCard support is central to the core design of the S3 TiVo and above, and it is mandated by law. Making any changes to the CableCard would require FCC approval and would affect a great deal more than just TiVo. On the flip side of the coin, if changes were allowed by the FCC, there's a good chance they would also require 3rd party vendors to provide some level of support for the upgrade.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

ohmark said:


> Inconvenient???? Are you serious? You have eliminated the sole reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 2, and a major reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 3
> 
> Tivo Jerry, I want you to know that over the course of Tivo's lifetime, I bought an original series Tivo, a Sony Tivo, a Series 2, an HD Tivo, and a Tivo Premiere. I am really upset over your company's total failure to communicate with its customers for the past month over this. And I'm stupified by your use of the word "inconvenient" to describe a corporate decision that resulted in complete elimination of a service for which at least some of your customers purchased Tivo hardware and Tivo lifetime subscriptions.


You have to understand that Tivo stopped caring about its customers LONG ago. The only customers Tivo wants to have are cable/satellite companies but they have been able to get get very little off the ground.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

ohmark said:


> Thanks for your response, and you make some good points. I would agree that few would buy a current Tivo, and buy lifetime service (or pay the monthly charge) only for access to Rhapsody (for an additional monthly fee). In my case, Tivo offered me $99 lifetime service for a Series 2 that I had no particular use for. My Tivo 2 was going to be honorably retired, but I decided to accept the offer solely because I could use the Tivo for Rhapsody for my home sound system. There are internet radios I could have used instead (Squeezebox, etc.), but using Tivo 2 for this had the advantage of a relatively large screen display for the service and the $100 fee was less than I would have paid for other hardware. Also, while I would guess that it's true that not many people purchased a Tivo and paid for monthly service exclusively to access Rhapsody, I would also guess that the ability to access Rhapsody played a role in the purchase decisions of some customers.
> 
> None of the above excuses Tivo's abysmal failure to commuicate with its customers for over a month, during which time clicking on Rhapsody produced a message from Tivo that the app was undergoing "Scheduled Maintenance." And TivoJerry's use of the word "inconvenience" to describe the complete elimination of the service for Tivo 2 and Tivo 3/HD seems, well, inappropriate.
> 
> ...


I can see risking $99, I had incorrectly assumed a normal lifetime fee which is all I have ever purchased at $300. Well, I would say you took a chance and got some use but it probably didn't work out very well. I just had a coupon for half off any Logitech product, except Google TV, and looked at the Squeezebox, it looks like a good product but I have little interest in internet radio streaming and instead purchased a Harmony remote. I do use Pandora a little and have several boxes that handle that and have the Spotify free service on this laptop but don't use it much. I have never tried Rhapsody.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

classicsat said:


> What good would a firmware update be?...


I have no idea, but that's what Rhapsody said was needed, which makes me question if they know what they're talking about.

Can TiVo even send down a software update that flashes the firmware?

If it can, is that a comforting thought or a scary one?

If you were TiVo, would you want to flash TiVo sets in the non-controlled environment of the customer's home?

Since Tivo doesn't even appear to have the programming resources to finish the UI on the Premiere, I doubt they're in a position to deal with Rhapsody having decided to break things, and since things were working until Rhapsody made a change, it's a bit disingenuous of Rhapsody to try to blame TiVo.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

TiVoJerry said:


> I can confirm that an update is rolling out to Series4 boxes which will get Rhapsody up and running again. Unfortunately, due to recent technical limitations with the Rhapsody application Series3 and Series2 users will no longer have access to Rhapsody from their TiVo DVR. We apologize for the inconvenience.


WHY AM I STILL GETTING ADS FOR Rhapsody on my Tivo HD then? I was even able to start signing up.


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## bklockhart (Dec 10, 2006)

For what it's worth, Rhapsody has been helpful. I had just signed up for a 2-week trial membership to try it out on my home system only to discover it was out of service. After explaining my complaint, they issued me 3 months free service which I happily accepted. Don't hesitate to contact them if you have a similar complaint.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

bklockhart said:


> For what it's worth, Rhapsody has been helpful. I had just signed up for a 2-week trial membership to try it out on my home system only to discover it was out of service. After explaining my complaint, they issued me 3 months free service which I happily accepted. Don't hesitate to contact them if you have a similar complaint.


So you got 3 free months of a service that doesn't work on the equipment you have?

Am I missing something here?


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## djl25 (May 26, 2005)

We're all a little fed up with Tivo's software efforts the last few years; the lousy Netflix implementation, the unfinished HD GUI on the Series 4, etc. This FEELS like more of the same, and for those of us that really used Rhapsody a lot it's a killer. In Tivo's defense, however, Rhapsody also hasn't worked on my Vizio TV since this change and I haven't been able to find ONE WORD from Vizio about it. I moved from Napster to Rhapsody a few years ago, in large part because Rhapsody had so much better hardware support, but since that's disappearing I might be on to the next service.


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## wickelhaus (Sep 14, 2007)

I think many of you are missing the point. You think all is fine because you do not use Rhapsody? Even if you are not a Rhapsody subscriber, you should be concerned at the trend - very concerned about Tivo's lack of support for products that are only 3 years old. They have declared Series 2 and 3 EOL. Rhapsody is gone now. What will be gone next?

It makes lifetime subscriptions a joke, and in this economy, I will not be buying a DVR every 3 years.

As an early adopter of Tivo, this makes me sad and frustrated.


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

Tivo today obliterated Rhapsody from the Series 2 interface and, I assume, from the Series 3. Rhapsody has been restored to the Premieres.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

wickelhaus said:


> I think many of you are missing the point. You think all is fine because you do not use Rhapsody? Even if you are not a Rhapsody subscriber, you should be concerned at the trend - very concerned about Tivo's lack of support for products that are only 3 years old. They have declared Series 2 and 3 EOL. Rhapsody is gone now. What will be gone next?
> 
> It makes lifetime subscriptions a joke, and in this economy, I will not be buying a DVR every 3 years.
> 
> As an early adopter of Tivo, this makes me sad and frustrated.


Rhapsody made the change that killed Rhapsody on TiVo 2 and 3. How do we even know it is possible for Rhapsody to work, even if TiVo went to the expense to try to fix it?


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

ohmark said:


> Inconvenient???? Are you serious? You have eliminated the sole reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 2, and a major reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 3
> 
> Tivo Jerry, I want you to know that over the course of Tivo's lifetime, I bought an original series Tivo, a Sony Tivo, a Series 2, an HD Tivo, and a Tivo Premiere. I am really upset over your company's total failure to communicate with its customers for the past month over this. And I'm stupified by your use of the word "inconvenient" to describe a corporate decision that resulted in complete elimination of a service for which at least some of your customers purchased Tivo hardware and Tivo lifetime subscriptions.


You bought a TiVo with lifetime service just for Rhapsody?


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

rifleman69 said:


> You bought a TiVo with lifetime service just for Rhapsody?


Not exactly if you read his response to my post, he only paid $99 for lifetime on a Series 2 he owned that would have been retired otherwise. He felt it was better than other Rhapsody players he could be using.


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

rifleman69 said:


> You bought a TiVo with lifetime service just for Rhapsody?


Good question. I answered it above.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Hmm, makes me wonder if I should call them up and demand a lifetime discount on the Premieres because my HDs can't get Rhapsody anymore.


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

djl25 said:


> for those of us that really used Rhapsody a lot it's a killer. In Tivo's defense, however, Rhapsody also hasn't worked on my Vizio TV since this change and I haven't been able to find ONE WORD from Vizio about it.


I was thinking of replacing the use of a Tivo 2 for Rhapsody with a Vizio VIA lcd-tv or blu-ray player. So I called Vizio tech support for an update on the Rhapsody issue. Absolutely clueless. Sort of like Tivo reps were to anybody who called to ask what happened to Rhapsody on Tivo. The Visio rep told me he didn't think the VIA application on blu-ray included Rhapsody (wrong); he said he knew it was included in VIA for their lcd-tv's but hadn't heard of any problems with it; and after checking with his supervisor told me they weren't aware of any problems.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

ohmark said:


> I was thinking of replacing the use of a Tivo 2 for Rhapsody with a Vizio VIA lcd-tv


That sounds like a bad idea to me. I think your best bet is with an internet radio device that:
1. Rhapsody is a core part of their business and is more likely to be supported.
2. Supports alternatives like Napster and Spotify if you need to switch.

Good luck.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Hmm, makes me wonder if I should call them up and demand a lifetime discount on the Premieres because my HDs can't get Rhapsody anymore.


I called trying to get lifetime on a third TiVoHD for $200 a few months ago and the answer was no. I didn't think to mention Rhapsody but they probably know that I don't use Rhapsody. Now I could say I can't use it because it has been eliminated and therefore I should get a discount.


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

DrewS3 said:


> That sounds like a bad idea to me. I think your best bet is with an internet radio device that:
> 1. Rhapsody is a core part of their business and is more likely to be supported.
> 2. Supports alternatives like Napster and Spotify if you need to switch.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks. The advantage that Vizio (tv or blu-ray) or Tivo has for me is that there is a big, bright video display with various information about the music that I enjoy seeing. None of the radios or non-video based gadgets provide the same experience, which I enjoy and find useful. Maybe I should look in to whether there is a Roku-like video media provider with a Rhapsody relationship. Even here, however, it is almost impossible to get current accurate information as to what works. As I said above, Rhapsody tech support was absolutely worthless as to this. Only in this thread did I get what appears to be reliable info as to Vizio VIA products not working since the Rhapsody software change. I hate it when you call somebody's tech support, and know far more about the product than whoever you're speaking to.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

ohmark said:


> Thanks. The advantage that Vizio (tv or blu-ray) or Tivo has for me is that there is a big, bright video display with various information about the music that I enjoy seeing.


Do you have a smartphone or tablet with WiFi? There are apps for pretty much every platform to control Squeezeboxes, they usually have the album art and artist bios and lyrics. I know iPeng is popular on iOS and I've seen others for Android, WP7 and WebOS.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

unitron said:


> I have no idea, but that's what Rhapsody said was needed, which makes me question if they know what they're talking about.
> 
> Can TiVo even send down a software update that flashes the firmware?
> 
> ...


I think many confuse "firmware" with "os update" so i assume the rhapsody guy did just that.

But if you are asking can tivo flash the chips on the motherboard---- I believe that earlier hardware it was totally doable. The hackers used to do it all the time. Directivo S1 boxes initially didn't encrypt the recordings on the hard drive- it was very easy to extract video to share around the home. Then tivo sent down an upgrade that forced the boxes to encrypt the video on the drive- if i recall part of that involved flashing one of the chips. I seem to recall a discussion at the time if that was a wise practice and the consensus was that since Directv was very liberal with swaps it seemed was reasonable. The hackers then figured out how to "undo" that and if for sure required re-flashing one of the chips- if you did it wrong you nuked your box and had to sent it off for some desoldering fun (raises hand- lol). I am under the impression that the later hardware revisions removed the lead needed to flash the chips on the motherboard and that's why now the hackers have to resort to un-soldering the chip and reprogramming it off board.


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

DrewS3 said:


> Do you have a smartphone or tablet with WiFi? There are apps for pretty much every platform to control Squeezeboxes, they usually have the album art and artist bios and lyrics. I know iPeng is popular on iOS and I've seen others for Android, WP7 and WebOS.


No smartphone or tablet. Using Live 365 for music now on Tivo 2. Deciding what to do about Rhapsody subscription.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ohmark said:


> I was thinking of replacing the use of a Tivo 2 for Rhapsody with a Vizio VIA lcd-tv or blu-ray player.


I have a smaller Vizio LCD with apps. It's a slow and unstable platform (as in reboots) with awful speakers. I'd look at something else.


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

davezatz said:


> I have a smaller Vizio LCD with apps. It's a slow and unstable platform (as in reboots) with awful speakers. I'd look at something else.


 Wouldn't use the speakers; just integrate the sound out into home sound system. 
Please do reply, however, as to whether you still can access Rhapsody on your VIA apps. Thanks.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks ohmark for referring us over here from the old thread. Confirmed that I can log into Rhapsody on our Premier, while the HDs get a message saying "due to technical limitations" Rhapsody is unavailable. But after logging in on the Premier, I receive an error message about not being able to connect to Rhapsody when I try to play music anyway. Not worth spending any more time on this.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

ohmark said:


> Wouldn't use the speakers; just integrate the sound out into home sound system.
> Please do reply, however, as to whether you still can access Rhapsody on your VIA apps. Thanks.


The app is available on my set and I can get to the login screen, but I don't know if it actually works as my Rhapsody account is inactive.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

DrewS3 said:


> What difference would an open source protocol make? I doubt Tivo would implement a new protocol on the S2/S3/HD even if there was source code freely available.


But it doesn't have to be _new_. All Series 2+ TiVos today can stream MP3 over https. That ought to be enough for Rhapsody.


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## windsurfdog (May 1, 2009)

My TP has received the new Rhapsody application and, in the limited time I utilized it last night, it seems to be working well. The gui has not changed...not that I expected it to...so the time spent appears to be solely to fix the connection problems. Song load times seem to be snappier than before. Otherwise, the experience is about the same.


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## comprev (Oct 31, 2003)

I guess what I don't understand is that the Rhapsody interface appears to be a web interface that gets pulled from TiVo's servers into the machine when I go to Rhapsody. If that's the case, wouldn't most of the updating be between the TiVo servers and Rhapsody and the TiVo units just manipulate the interface they receive from the TiVo servers (sort of a "terminal services" setup)? Assuming they're making an encrypted connection to the TiVo servers (I don't know if they are or not), then what's the problem?

Or, is it that once they login to the interface that the units go directly to Rhapsody to get the music?


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

comprev said:


> I guess what I don't understand is that the Rhapsody interface appears to be a web interface that gets pulled from TiVo's servers into the machine when I go to Rhapsody. If that's the case, wouldn't most of the updating be between the TiVo servers and Rhapsody and the TiVo units just manipulate the interface they receive from the TiVo servers (sort of a "terminal services" setup)? Assuming they're making an encrypted connection to the TiVo servers (I don't know if they are or not), then what's the problem?
> 
> Or, is it that once they login to the interface that the units go directly to Rhapsody to get the music?


Just a guess, but I am thinking Rhapsody wants to use the same cert for the connection to the device as the connection to the TiVo service (assuming your speculation is correct). My guess is that the older boxes aren't set up to use multiple SSL certs within a single HME session.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

unitron said:


> I have no idea, but that's what Rhapsody said was needed, which makes me question if they know what they're talking about.
> 
> Can TiVo even send down a software update that flashes the firmware?
> 
> ...


Rhapsody maybe generically meant the operating software (which on HDD-less embedded devices is more like firmware), in which can The TiVo system is set up for in service updates - Just that TiVo does not want to go to the trouble to make the new Rhapsody system work on what they consider old hardware.

As I said, in the context of a computer system, the "firmware" on a TiVo is PROM, which more or less just verfies the HDD and boots. Updating that, if it were possible, would not matter for the purposes of a high "application" level feature such as Rhapsody.


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## WeKnSmith (Jun 24, 2002)

TiVoJerry said:


> I can confirm that an update is rolling out to Series4 boxes which will get Rhapsody up and running again. Unfortunately, due to recent technical limitations with the Rhapsody application Series3 and Series2 users will no longer have access to Rhapsody from their TiVo DVR. We apologize for the inconvenience.


Hi Jerry,

Can you tell us any more about the technical limitations with the Series3 that would prevent software updates from enabling the service again? Is there something in the S3 hardware that prevents an update from working?


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

WeKnSmith said:


> Hi Jerry,
> 
> Can you tell us any more about the technical limitations with the Series3 that would prevent software updates from enabling the service again? Is there something in the S3 hardware that prevents an update from working?


Yes, its a hardware platform that Tivo no longer develops for.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jcthorne said:


> Yes, its a hardware platform that Tivo no longer develops for.


In other words, they could enable Rhapsody on S3 boxes, but they won't. This is not unusual in the consumer electronics biz, but I'm not replacing our HDs with Premiers just for this.

We do have one new Premier XL here, purchased mostly for the smaller shelf space required. I just tried to use Rhapsody for the second time on that box, and got the same error: when I try to play a music channel, Rhapsody flashes through the names of several tracks reporting an error each time, then stops.

If it weren't for these forums I wouldn't even be checking this anymore.


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

jcthorne said:


> Yes, its a hardware platform that Tivo no longer develops for.


He/we understand that. He's asking, essentially, what the effort level would have been to update the Series 3 for Rhapsody, once the work had already been done for the Premiere. Worst case scenario: there would have been little effort to update the Series 3 once the work was done for the Premiere, but Tivo chose not to do because it might make sell 1 or 2 more Premieres.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ohmark said:


> He/we understand that. He's asking, essentially, what the effort level would have been to update the Series 3 for Rhapsody, once the work had already been done for the Premiere. Worst case scenario: there would have been little effort to update the Series 3 once the work was done for the Premiere, but Tivo chose not to do because it might make sell 1 or 2 more Premieres.


But do we really know what Rhapsody did to break things, and, assuming it was something that could be fixed by updating just the S3's software and not replacing the motherboard, do we know how much trouble and expense would have been involved to re-write the S3 software to overcome whatever Rhapsody did to break things? Are we talking something like a service pack, or are we talking turning DOS 3.3 into Windows 7?


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

djl25 said:


> In Tivo's defense, however, Rhapsody also hasn't worked on my Vizio TV since this change and I haven't been able to find ONE WORD from Vizio about it.


I don't see that as a defense. You don't pay Vizio to use the app. You do pay Tivo to use it.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

WeKnSmith said:


> Hi Jerry,
> 
> Can you tell us any more about the technical limitations with the Series3 that would prevent software updates from enabling the service again? Is there something in the S3 hardware that prevents an update from working?


lol. They are not going to give details because it's just another of Tivo's lame excuses.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

aadam101 said:


> I don't see that as a defense. You don't pay Vizio to use the app. You do pay Tivo to use it.


I'd say that is a fair defense. Your tivo service doesn't pay for Rhapsody, you pay Rhapsody for a subscription. To me the tivo service is everything but the HME Apps, those are just extras / subscription services.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

LoREvanescence said:


> I'd say that is a fair defense. Your tivo service doesn't pay for Rhapsody, you pay Rhapsody for a subscription. To me the tivo service is everything but the HME Apps, those are just extras / subscription services.


Not true. Your Tivo Service DOES pay for use of the app. If the box doesn't have service, your app doesn't work. Tivo has made it very black and white.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

aadam101 said:


> Not true. Your Tivo Service DOES pay for use of the app. If the box doesn't have service, your app doesn't work. Tivo has made it very black and white.


That's right! TiVo and Rhapsody have advertised their combined service on television, and many of us made our purchase decisions at least in part because of this feature.


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## WeKnSmith (Jun 24, 2002)

LoREvanescence said:


> I'd say that is a fair defense. Your tivo service doesn't pay for Rhapsody, you pay Rhapsody for a subscription. To me the tivo service is everything but the HME Apps, those are just extras / subscription services.


The issue in our household, is that we specifically purchased a second Series3, lifetime for that Series3, and a WD HD Expander for the TiVo. All of those were purchased in order to have access to Rhapsody in that room. I would consider the Rhapsody service the most commonly used feature on the S3 in that room.

Assuming that there are hardware issues that make it impossible to support Rhapsody on the S3, then I will give TiVo a pass on this issue. If TiVo made a decision to not update the HME app, but it would have been possible from a hardware perspective, then I am more than a little annoyed.

So my question to TiVoJerry would be, which case is it? If it is a hardware limitation, then give us somewhat specific details.


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## Volken2000 (May 22, 2006)

I also enjoyed listening to Rhapsody on my Tivo S3 because of the ease of getting to it without having to boot up a computer. I also do not believe there is a hardware issue preventing S3 Tivos from playing the Rhapsody streams because Tivos are basically a computer running Linux with Tivo software and with the software update all other types of computers run it. Also, Rhapsody made the change over a year after the Premiere came out and it runs it which makes me wonder what new audio technology came out between the development of the S3 and the Premiere that explains why the Premiere would have a more advanced audio processor to handle the new Rhapsody stream. This makes me side with other people who think Tivo did this to sell more Premieres. 
One of the main reasons I believe people buy Tivos and pay their fees as opposed to using DVRs from cable companies is for internet apps like Rhapsody and as cable cos. come out with more advanced units and the fact that Google just bought Motorola (which of course makes a lot of cable boxes) there no telling what they may have in mind in this field. Google could probably afford to sell DVR with free or very cheap TV programming data services. This makes think that Tivo should bend over backwards to keep every customer they still have.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Volken2000 said:


> I also enjoyed listening to Rhapsody on my Tivo S3 because of the ease of getting to it without having to boot up a computer. I also do not believe there is a hardware issue preventing S3 Tivos from playing the Rhapsody streams because Tivos are basically a computer running Linux with Tivo software and with the software update all other types of computers run it. Also, Rhapsody made the change over a year after the Premiere came out and it runs it which makes me wonder what new audio technology came out between the development of the S3 and the Premiere that explains why the Premiere would have a more advanced audio processor to handle the new Rhapsody stream. This makes me side with other people who think Tivo did this to sell more Premieres.
> One of the main reasons I believe people buy Tivos and pay their fees as opposed to using DVRs from cable companies is for internet apps like Rhapsody and as cable cos. come out with more advanced units and the fact that Google just bought Motorola (which of course makes a lot of cable boxes) there no telling what they may have in mind in this field. Google could probably afford to sell DVR with free or very cheap TV programming data services. This makes think that Tivo should bend over backwards to keep every customer they still have.


Actually Google bought Motorola's cell phone spin-off, Motorola Mobility, not Motorola.


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## Volken2000 (May 22, 2006)

unitron said:


> Actually Google bought Motorola's cell phone spin-off, Motorola Mobility, not Motorola.


Motorola Mobility includes its Media Mobility division which is broadband and video services for cable operators including DVRs.


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## camelland (May 14, 2006)

i have to say i think this is an area most ppl haven't realized how great it is and sadly won't miss it. 

i must have a series 3 upstairs, even though it's only about a year old because i don't have rhapsody on it. i find this very disturbing as i would stream nature sfx at night to help me sleep. 

i've tried the other 'radio channel' and 1-it sucks - talking, and ads, 2- no sfx and 3- automatically goes back to live tv after about 15 minutes, if that long.

so while i rely on that to sleep i no longer have it unless i spend the money to get a new tivo box.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Volken2000 said:


> Motorola Mobility includes its Media Mobility division which is broadband and video services for cable operators including DVRs.


I read this on one of the blog's. Most of the major cable operators use Motorola equipment. This means Google now has a HUGE market share of set top boxes.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> I read this on one of the blog's. Most of the major cable operators use Motorola equipment. This means Google now has a HUGE market share of set top boxes.


You mean they will if/when the deal goes through. Which is not expected to be until late 2011 or early 2012.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

WeKnSmith said:


> Assuming that there are hardware issues that make it impossible to support Rhapsody on the S3, then I will give TiVo a pass on this issue. If TiVo made a decision to not update the HME app, but it would have been possible from a hardware perspective, then I am more than a little annoyed.


Tivo has abandoned hardware before for trival reasons. My lifetime Series 1 can't receive over-the-air because Tivo didn't update it to allow the use of digital set top converters. This would have been a five minute fix, but they wouldn't do it. Assume the same for Rhapsody on your Series 3.

Tivo never sent a notice to thier subscribers, they only posted a confirmation on a Tivo forum after weeks of guesses and questions by it's hardcore users. If they couldn't spend half an hour communicating to their subscribers, what makes you think they would spend any more time than that on an engineering fix?


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

DrewS3 said:


> Tivo never sent a notice to thier subscribers, they only posted a confirmation on a Tivo forum after weeks of guesses and questions by it's hardcore users.


Absolutely true. Really disgraceful for a company with minimum regard for its customers.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

WeKnSmith said:


> Can you tell us any more about the technical limitations with the Series3 that would prevent software updates from enabling the service again? Is there something in the S3 hardware that prevents an update from working?


Undoubtedly the 'technical limitation' is that the amount of revenue generated by users continuing their Tivo subscription because it supports Rhapsody is less than the cost of generating an S2 and S3 update.

It's not an unreasonable position, but it's not a position that will encourage customer satisfaction either. They're betting the unhappy Rhapsody users don't matter. (Note to Tivo: Enough unhappy users, for enough different reasons, do add up to a group that collectively matters)


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## Alcatraz (Nov 22, 2000)

ohmark said:


> Absolutely true. Really disgraceful for a company with minumum regard for its customers.





aadam101 said:


> lol. They are not going to give details because it's just another of Tivo's lame excuses.


Perhaps a quick reminder that Tivojerry is volunteering his time to be in the forums is in order. You guys aren't making it easy for him to come in here and give you any kind of an update. Even if he managed to give a technical explanation that made sense, he'd still get an earful for something I'm sure he's not in control of. Why sho9uld he even bother?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

DrewS3 said:


> My lifetime Series 1 can't receive over-the-air because Tivo didn't update it to allow the use of digital set top converters. This would have been a five minute fix, but they wouldn't do it.


I seriously doubt they could fix that in five minutes. However, I would think they could adapt the same code as they used to do the same thing on the Series 2. But ISTR they said, back during the fiasco over the new daylight saving time rules, that they no longer had the ability to update the Series 1 codebase, at all. I dunno.


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

Alcatraz said:


> Perhaps a quick reminder that Tivojerry is volunteering his time to be in the forums is in order.


I, obviously, don't hold Tivojerry responsible for the short-sighted decision in re Rhapsody or the lack of communication from the company. I appreciate his participation on the board. To whatever extent I personalized any criticism, I apologize.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Alcatraz said:


> Perhaps a quick reminder that Tivojerry is volunteering his time to be in the forums is in order. You guys aren't making it easy for him to come in here and give you any kind of an update. Even if he managed to give a technical explanation that made sense, he'd still get an earful for something I'm sure he's not in control of. Why sho9uld he even bother?


I view that as a huge problem. Several Tivo employees used to post here and they were welcome with open arms. The difference is back then they had GOOD news. Now the only thing that comes out of Tivo is BAD news and poor excuses.

I don't blame the employees for not wanting to post. They work for a company who treat their customers like crap and slap them in the face every chance they get.

Take a look at some of the idiotic stuff that they post on Facebook. I don't even know why they bother. Those postings can't possibly help them because every single one is followed up by dozens of customer complaints. There are very rarely any positive comments from people. I remember a time when ONLY positive things were said. Things have changed.....


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## bklockhart (Dec 10, 2006)

unitron said:


> So you got 3 free months of a service that doesn't work on the equipment you have?
> 
> Am I missing something here?


The only thing you're 'missing' is that I can still use Rhapsody on any computer or on a mobile device so there's that... free for 3 months. But this is a Tivo forum....I used the TiVo issue as leverage with Rhapsody and got a positive result. Would be great if TiVo customer service followed through on their promise of a rollout for a fix, but from what I gather on this forum, it'll be a long wait. Using Rhapsody on my home system thru TiVo would be a bonus at this point.

I certainly empathize with the pissed off Series 2 and 3 owners. Whatever the reason for not keeping it functional is inexcusable.


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## maincala (Dec 17, 2009)

Well.... hmmmmm, the best chance we have to get Rhapsody to work again is to threaten Tivo that if they don't reinstate the service, we will cancel, and Mean It!
I for one will not buy another Tivo Box afar this incident. Why would I do that? Now that I know whatever feature works with these new boxes will probably not work in the near future? Maybe? Maybe not? 

I'll talk with my wallet, I suggest everyone here venting on this subject to remind Tivo where their paycheck comes from. Pay attention Tivo!


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

maincala said:


> Well.... hmmmmm, the best chance we have to get Rhapsody to work again is to threaten Tivo that if they don't reinstate the service, we will cancel, and Mean It!
> I for one will not buy another Tivo Box afar this incident. Why would I do that? Now that I know whatever feature works with these new boxes will probably not work in the near future? Maybe? Maybe not?
> 
> I'll talk with my wallet, I suggest everyone here venting on this subject to remind Tivo where their paycheck comes from. Pay attention Tivo!


Rhapsody is a service provided by a third party and if you read the terms of the TiVo service agreement or any agreement when third party services are available, those services can not be guaranteed. Rhapsody made the change that resulted in Rhapsody not working on Series 2 and Series 3 TiVos and if you know how to simply get it working again, just do the work and provide it to TiVo and see if an update will be made to get it working again. I have no idea if it is possible or what it would take if it is possible to get it working again.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

I cancelled Rhapsody and moved to MOG. I've been unhappy with Rhapsody's low bitrate for a long time, not to mention all the harm Real did to what was once a pioneering, innovative service. Only inertia and lack of time was keeping me from cancelling, and I only needed this final nudge to do it.

I posted a longer version of this rant here... 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8698496#post8698496


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

maincala said:


> Well.... hmmmmm, the best chance we have to get Rhapsody to work again is to threaten Tivo that if they don't reinstate the service, we will cancel, and Mean It!


and that will leave you with no Rhapsody and no TiVo. Your best chance to get Rhapsody back (on TiVo) is to buy a Premiere and thats what TiVo wants you to do.


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## maincala (Dec 17, 2009)

Chris Gerhard said:


> Rhapsody is a service provided by a third party and if you read the terms of the TiVo service agreement or any agreement when third party services are available, those services can not be guaranteed. Rhapsody made the change that resulted in Rhapsody not working on Series 2 and Series 3 TiVos and if you know how to simply get it working again, just do the work and provide it to TiVo and see if an update will be made to get it working again. I have no idea if it is possible or what it would take if it is possible to get it working again.


I see, well people, I guess because of the fine print we're all screwed?
Really, read the terms? Are you insane? It's really easy, many of us used this service, it doesn't work now so the Tivo experience many of us have become accustomed to has degraded and all we get is a sorry for your inconvenience? nope, doesn't fly. No matter who's at fault, do what it takes to get it working or else your subscribers will diminish (both Tivo and Rhapsody). If the engineers at Tivo and/or Rhapsody aren't smart enough to figure it out then find someone that can. I don't want to hear excuses nor do any of us that got affected by it.

"Just do the work and provide it to Tivo?" hu? Yeah, I'll take a few courses at ITT Tech and get on it right away, then I'll provide the results to them for no cost...... wow!


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## maincala (Dec 17, 2009)

Joe01880 said:


> and that will leave you with no Rhapsody and no TiVo. Your best chance to get Rhapsody back (on TiVo) is to buy a Premiere and thats what TiVo wants you to do.


You're right, but consumers are smarter then that. So if I by a Premier tomorrow, no guarantee that Rhapsody will work after the next update correct?

If they don't fix this then they will lose the trust, no trust, no business. Huge PR headache for Tivo


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

TiVo didn't change anything, Rhapsody did.

We don't know if the changes Rhapsody made would allow TiVo to re-write the S2 and 3 software to work with the new Rhapsody, or if the change was so fundamental that it would be impossible.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I would just get a separate device for OTT applications and keep using the Tivo for the DVR.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

maincala said:


> I see, well people, I guess because of the fine print we're all screwed?
> Really, read the terms? Are you insane? It's really easy, many of us used this service, it doesn't work now so the Tivo experience many of us have become accustomed to has degraded and all we get is a sorry for your inconvenience? nope, doesn't fly. No matter who's at fault, do what it takes to get it working or else your subscribers will diminish (both Tivo and Rhapsody). If the engineers at Tivo and/or Rhapsody aren't smart enough to figure it out then find someone that can. I don't want to hear excuses nor do any of us that got affected by it.
> 
> "Just do the work and provide it to Tivo?" hu? Yeah, I'll take a few courses at ITT Tech and get on it right away, then I'll provide the results to them for no cost...... wow!


You seem to think TiVo can fix this easily, go ahead and explain how it can be done. My local channels are no longer broadcast over the air, NTSC analog signal I could receive with my series 1 TiVo. Should TiVo be required to fix that or should I be required to buy a device that can receive digital OTA?

Third party services are not within TiVo's control, if you thought differently, that is your fault, not TiVos. I don't use Rhapsody and you don't pay TiVo anything extra to have Rhapsody access with TiVo, I sure don't see how you find such fault with TiVo, contact Rhapsody and whine is my recommendation. If Rhapsody is so important, get a device that guarantees Rhapsody access regardless of changes Rhapsody makes to their service.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> I would just get a separate device for OTT applications and keep using the Tivo for the DVR.


Unless someone makes a better DVR or a less expensive DVR that works as well, I will continue to use TiVo as my DVR. I wanted some internet streaming access I can't get with TiVo so I purchased Google TV, I don't know if it does Rhapsody but if I had purchased it for that purpose, I would have known before purchase. I did know it does Amazon Prime Instant Video and a few dozen other streaming video sites I wanted.

This site to me is so funny, I see so much whining about things TiVo doesn't do and nobody ever mentions a willingness to pay the price necessary to get what is wanted, nor do they offer any alternatives. The reason TiVo doesn't do everything everbody wants is the price would be too high.

Does anybody know a DVR other than the Premiere that works as well as TiVo and includes Rhapsody? I sure don't know of one and find it petty and ridiculous to see people whine about TiVo's inability to get Rhapsody working on the older models.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

maincala said:


> You're right, but consumers are smarter then that. So if I by a Premier tomorrow, no guarantee that Rhapsody will work after the next update correct?
> 
> If they don't fix this then they will lose the trust, no trust, no business. Huge PR headache for Tivo


Absolutely correct! If for some reason the new Premiere "Elite" suffers in sales do to lack of interest or performance, given TiVo's recent history there is no reason not to think they would make Rhapsody availabe to only the "Elite" boxes dropping the first gen Premiere.
The claim that the change it due to a change on Rhapsodys end is probably 100% true but the change could have been requested at TiVo's end too! From what I see TiVo does very little if anything for free so if they are making Rhapsody availabe money is exchanging hands someplace on some level.
As for being a huge headache for TiVo that has yet to be seen. I for one am not using Rhapsody. What is Rhapsody's customer base on TiVo. I'm guessing not much for TiVo to make such a move in the first place.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Chris Gerhard said:


> [excerpt]...I purchased Google TV, I don't know if it does Rhapsody but if I had purchased it for that purpose, I would have known before purchase. I did know it does Amazon Prime Instant Video and a few dozen other streaming video sites I wanted.


You can navigate to Rhapsody's website on Google TV and play it from there. You'll probably have to turn off Chrome's pop-up blocker or you won't see the music player. Other services like MOG have Chrome apps specifically optimized to work with Google products. MOG is also better integrated with Roku and Boxee than Rhapsody is.



Chris Gerhard said:


> This site to me is so funny, I see so much whining about things TiVo doesn't do and nobody ever mentions a willingness to pay the price necessary to get what is wanted, nor do they offer any alternatives.


Yep. Roku and Boxee are very inexpensive alternatives, or you could use a cheap net-top or laptop plugged into your TV (which is even cheaper if you use user-friendly Ubuntu Linux). TiVo should be worried, and in fact that's probably why they are solidifying their integration with the cable/sat companies and TV manufacturers now, teaming up with others that want to keep us locked in their walled gardens, instead of focusing only on standalone TiVo boxes that compete with their allies: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=476080


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## ohmark (May 22, 2007)

I stand second to nobody when it comes to loyalty to Tivo and enjoyment of their products. But I laugh at the utterly blind Tivo-can-do-no-wrong attitude of some of the posters above. Folks, Rhapsody updated their software and Tivo (for the Premiere) and other manufacturers updated their own software to maintain compatibility with Rhapsody. Tivo decided not to spend money to update software for the HD and the Series 2, both of which were born with Rhapsody and both of which initially advertised Rhapsody as available with the product. This was obviously done for one of two reasons: either Tivo decided it didn't want to spend a dime on anything that was not an immediately perceived financial benefit to Tivo, or it thought that maybe it could squeeze out one or two extra sales of Premieres. Either one at the cost of whatever loss of customer satisfaction or loyalty to Tivo. 

That Tivo's TOS may allow Tivo to discontinue third party applictions is largely irrelevant because nobody here is talking about what Tivo is legally obligated to do. Instead, once more Tivo's managers plod blindly on ignoring the damage done to the Tivo franchise by short-sighted decisions designed to save a few dollars or make a few dollars extra profit. The damage done in loss of product loyalty and loss of sales down the road is not immediately quantifiable, so therefore is disregarded by short-sighted managers who could care less about what Tivo's business looks like down the road.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

ohmark said:


> I stand second to nobody when it comes to loyalty to Tivo and enjoyment of their products. But I laugh at the utterly blind Tivo-can-do-no-wrong attitude of some of the posters above. Folks, Rhapsody updated their software and Tivo (for the Premiere) and other manufacturers updated their own software to maintain compatibility with Rhapsody. Tivo decided not to spend money to update software for the HD and the Series 2, both of which were born with Rhapsody and both of which initially advertised Rhapsody as available with the product. This was obviously done for one of two reasons: either Tivo decided it didn't want to spend a dime on anything that was not an immediately perceived financial benefit to Tivo, or it thought that maybe it could squeeze out one or two extra sales of Premieres. Either one at the cost on whatever loss of customer satisfaction or loyalty to Tivo.
> 
> That Tivo's TOS may allow Tivo to discontinue third party applictions is largely irrelevant because nobody here is talking about what Tivo is legally obligated to do. Instead, once more Tivo's managers plod blindly on ignoring the damage done to the Tivo franchise by short-sighted decisions designed to save a few dollars or make a few dollars extra profit. The damage done in loss of product loyalty and loss of sales down the road is not immediately quantifiable, so therefore is disregarded by short-sighted managers who could care less about what Tivo's business looks like down the road.


So you know for a fact Rhapsody can work with the older TiVos without issues but TiVo wasn't willing to spend the money to get it working? How do you know this?


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

ohmark said:


> That Tivo's TOS may allow Tivo to discontinue third party applictions is largely irrelevant because nobody here is talking about what Tivo is legally obligated to do.


TiVo's TOS are not irrelevent because we argee to them when we sign up to PAY for TiVo service. You pay TiVo to add applications that you _also_ pay for such as Rhapsody and you also pay them to eliminate them if they see fit to do so.



ohmark said:


> The damage done in loss of product loyalty and loss of sales down the road is not immediately quantifiable, so therefore is disregarded by short-sighted managers who could care less about what Tivo's business looks like down the road.


There has been TiVo boxes used by Comcast and RCN past and current, with TiVos latest moves with multi tuner (over 2) units being made available to cable companies, they're getting in bed with BestBuy and using they're software in BB TV's and the terms of the settlement with Dish seem to point where TiVo is heading. That direction may not be to your liking or mine but TiVo has never consulted with me in the past on business decissions and possibly not you either. They put a product up that we can choose to buy or not, for now. However they may be moving in a direction that will steer them away from us and put them into bed with big players on the block. So i think someone at TiVo is paying close attention _to what they're business looks like down the road
_ it just might not include keeping me or you as customers, not as we are today anyway.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Chris Gerhard said:


> So you know for a fact Rhapsody can work with the older TiVos without issues but TiVo wasn't willing to spend the money to get it working? How do you know this?


It's just streaming MP3s (or AAC, FLAC, WMA, whatever - simple stuff) with a means of authorization and selection, there's no magic here and pretty much any Tivo would work. Tivo just doesn't give a crap, but they'll gladly take your money for service.


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## BarryD99 (Mar 30, 2002)

In my mind, the Tivo/Rhapsody partnership has been a stepchild for years - neither company seemed to put any effort into it.

Good riddance.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

ohmark said:


> This was obviously done for one of two reasons: either Tivo decided it didn't want to spend a dime on anything that was not an immediately perceived financial benefit to Tivo, or it thought that maybe it could squeeze out one or two extra sales of Premieres.


People commonly claim Tivo makes no money off hardware sales, so it seems like it is the first reason (not wanting to invest in the old platform).

I suspect that Tivo has no institutional programming knowledge anymore, they've outsourced all thier programming to off shore job shops. This would make quick changes to older platforms much more expensive since you'd have to get a new team up to speed from scratch, vs. getting an 'old timer' to crank it out in a couple days.


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## tiv0pete (Oct 26, 2006)

TiVoJerry said:


> I can confirm that an update is rolling out to Series4 boxes which will get Rhapsody up and running again. Unfortunately, due to recent technical limitations with the Rhapsody application Series3 and Series2 users will no longer have access to Rhapsody from their TiVo DVR. We apologize for the inconvenience.


Let's face it: TiVo is just like the old car companies that used planned obsolescence to force people to buy the latest, most expensive product. Over the years I've owned a lot of TiVo boxes, including the notoriously defective Humax ones w/DVD burners that usually failed fairly quickly (and that Best Buy allowed me to return for refunds).

But as these boxes have worn out, I quit replacing them with newer, more expensive ones. There are increasingly more options, and eventually TiVo will probably all but disappear.

My TiVo HD is only about 2.5 years old. (Actually, the original box fizzled out after about two years; and under an extended warranty I got a replacement.) But they've basically quit fixing all the software glitches that make navigation so difficult in some sections of the software. And don't even get me started on TiVo Desktop Plus's inability to convert files from an HD box for computer DVD playing w/out getting the audio and video out of synch. I spent may hours helping TiVo tech support diagnose and isolate the problem, only to have them give up once we figured out approximately where the problem was in their software.

Here's the solution I came up with a long time ago for both copyrighted video and music recorded on any TiVo box or other digital recorder: Just feed the content (either recorded or live/streaming in real time) from the TiVo box (or Roku device, or whatever) to a DVD recorder w/a cheap Macrovision copyright filter device placed in between the two devices. The filter permanently removes copyright protection from the signal, allowing it to be burned to a DVD for archiving. I have tons of Pandora and Live365 content, as well as HBO programming, etc., in my library.

And do you know what? It's all perfectly legal according to the U.S. Supreme Court. The dirty little secret that TiVo and content providers don't want you to know is that if you're paying for access to content (e.g., paying your cable bill, paying for your TiVo subscription, etc.), then you can archive one copy of anything (except fee-based on-demand content) for personal use. But they try to scare folks with those FBI $250,000 fine and imprisonment warnings at the beginning of films and selected TV shows. However, the warnings say UNAUTHORIZED copying is penalized--not copying per se. So one copy for your library is ALWAYS legal.

So just get a Macrovision filter, put it upstream of a DVD recorder, and record anything you want from TiVo, Roku, or anything else and pass it to the DVD recorder.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

tiv0pete said:


> And do you know what? It's all perfectly legal according to the U.S. Supreme Court. The dirty little secret that TiVo and content providers don't want you to know is that if you're paying for access to content (e.g., paying your cable bill, paying for your TiVo subscription, etc.), then you can archive one copy of anything (except fee-based on-demand content) for personal use.


[citation needed]

You are at least breaking the DMCA.

I *suspect* you are going to cite the Sony/Universal lawsuit ("The BetaMax case"), but that SPECIFICALLY does not legalize "librarying" (their term). It does not say it is illegal, either, however. IANAL, but IMHO, burning to a write-once medium (DVD recorder) would seem to clearly be "librarying", which potentially could be illegal.

But again, seems to me it clearly breaks the DMCA.

(BTW, I have a hard drive/DVD recorder and use it daily alongside my Tivos to watch stuff faster than realtime.. But with the ability to download nonprotected stuff from the Tivos, I haven't used the DVD writing much lately, and even then only for temporary use mostly.)


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## tiv0pete (Oct 26, 2006)

mattack said:


> [citation needed]
> 
> You are at least breaking the DMCA.
> 
> ...


I'm referring to the Fair Use law, which was clarified by the federal govt. after the DMCA was enacted. The Supreme Court ruling still applies. It's hard to find the info on this, but if you search on some of my previous posts on other threads (from maybe about 4 years ago), you'll find details.

The key thing here is that I'm not keeping more than one permanent copy, and I'm not distributing it to anyone else. Once it's burned to DVD, I erase any original copy from the HD. So if the feds break down my door, they'll never find a violation.


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## tomm1079 (May 10, 2005)

if anyone buys tivo lifetime for anything then being a DVR they are fooling themselves. Tivo is a DVR. The rest of the services can come and go. This is especially true once the Tivo is no longer being developed for (series2/3).

When you buy a tivo you get a DVR and a bunch of extras that may or may not be their later.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

And yet you're still paying for service, which is supposed to include updates. I don't have a problem with it personally because I don't pay monthly, but I can see that those who do might.


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