# Recording streaming video?



## mp11 (Jan 29, 2008)

Are there any Tivo units that will record streaming video such as Netflix, Hulu, etc.?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Really old ones with composite inputs could. But I have to ask why. There are much better ways to accomplish the same thing and in HD.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

Your response was; I have to ask why??
Really??? I had Xfinity. Only reason I kept it so long was because I loved TIVO so much!! I was on my 4th TIVO a Bolt when I cut the cord! My bill went from $130 a month for xfinity to $25 for Directv Now. (Package deal with my phone. From ATT Includes HBO TCM and YES) My TIVO subscription ran out. Don’t need it anymore. What I need is a SVR from TIVO. A streaming video recorder. I could go to Playon.tv and install the software on my pc and cast it to my TV, I’d rather have an integrated solution from TIVO. The answer is no TIVO does not have a unit. I wish they did. Yes there is a way. Not simple but possible to record Hulu, Netflix , Directv now etc. Playon.tv. TIVO should buy them out!! Already lost me as a longtime customer. Anyone want to buy a 2 TB Bolt?? I also wanted to keep my Bolt. But TIVO doesn’t offer or make available the DirectTv Now app for their units. So I installed it on my fire tv instead. Can’t install on TIVO. Install on someone else’s platform. Sorry for the long answer. Hope it helped.

NOT a new member. Just haven't posted in awhile.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

By definition you can watch on demand content any time, no need to record. If you really must have your own recordings, use Playon. I also have DirecTV Now but simply use the cloud DVR or individual streaming apps. Yes it would be nice if the app were on TiVo, but I’m not holding my breath. It’s the same number of button presses for me to switch to Roku as it would be to watch on TiVo anyway - one.


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

mdavej said:


> By definition you can watch on demand content any time, no need to record. If you really must have your own recordings, use Playon. I also have DirecTV Now but simply use the cloud DVR or individual streaming apps. Yes it would be nice if the app were on TiVo, but I'm not holding my breath. It's the same number of button presses for me to switch to Roku as it would be to watch on TiVo anyway - one.


Technically you are right, but I really do not like streaming anything. Three BIG problems with that stupid (to me) solution:

You must have a current subscription just to see something (and almost all of those are a constant waste of money)
Watching anything wastes bandwidth that really should not be needed (and is subject to internet performance issues)

Streaming apps have virtually no trick-play, so this is a terrible user experience compared to TiVo or DVD
So I don't particularly want the apps on TiVo at all, but I sure would like TiVo to record anything that comes into it. Personally, I solve this desire by using a Hauppauge HD PVR, but that is less desirable than native TiVo recording.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

On Demand is nice except with DirectTv Now you get what you pay for. Not a bad trade off since I save $100 a month ( actually more , NO monthly/yearly payment to TIVO either)and I’m not pissed off anymore. Their On Demand is not available with all their broadcast channels and the channels they do have a relationship ($$$) with have a limited library of seasons and episodes.
Can you give me any info on the cloud Dvr apps you use? Links?
I use Kodi on Fire Tv and access the web apps thru Kodi. Nicer and easier this way.
I’m using the web apps (velocity etc , with an alternate way to sign on for full access that Ditecttv now doesn’t offer) Plus Kodi and Direct tv now that gives me access to what I need. Pause , replay no commercials.
An integrated TIVO ( with or without OTA capability)with SVR (steaming video recording) capability like with built in Playon.tv would be ideal.

Who knows since Amazon supports Kodi (indirectly) and all the streaming apps that TIVO doesn’t like DirectTv Now. Maybe they will hook up with Playon.tv or something similar and I’ll be buying my next TIVO (knockoff) from Amazon.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

V7Goose said:


> Technically you are right, but I really do not like streaming anything. Three BIG problems with that stupid (to me) solution:
> 
> You must have a current subscription just to see something (and almost all of those are a constant waste of money)
> Watching anything wastes bandwidth that really should not be needed (and is subject to internet performance issues)
> ...


Items 1 and 2 are still in play if you are recording from a streaming source, but item 3 is resolved.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

1) true , most are a waste of money. Trying Hulu for a month (free) then cancelling. With ota channels etc $40 and up and up per month. Not worth it!!!
2) not sure about wasting bandwidth part ?? But my internet performance has degraded since I cut the cable in November. Did I mention that I hate xfinity??? Agree with second part
3) I agree the streaming apps have no trick play. That’s why TIVO needs Playon built into it. 

Apps are like channels. Delete the ones you don’t like. One of my favorite things about TIVO. Deleting non watched channels.900 channels. Listening to music , 100 channels worth from a 65 inch tv with inch thick speakers?? No way. Still wish TIVO had the apps tho.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

DTVN cloud DVR is in beta and works fairly well. Put yourself on the list at beta.directv.com. 

Use each network’s own app for on demand.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

72morgan said:


> Your response was; I have to ask why??
> Really??? I had Xfinity. Only reason I kept it so long was because I loved TIVO so much!! I was on my 4th TIVO a Bolt when I cut the cord! My bill went from $130 a month for xfinity to $25 for Directv Now. (Package deal with my phone. From ATT Includes HBO TCM and YES) My TIVO subscription ran out. Don't need it anymore. What I need is a SVR from TIVO. A streaming video recorder. I could go to Playon.tv and install the software on my pc and cast it to my TV, I'd rather have an integrated solution from TIVO. The answer is no TIVO does not have a unit. I wish they did. Yes there is a way. Not simple but possible to record Hulu, Netflix , Directv now etc. Playon.tv. TIVO should buy them out!! Already lost me as a longtime customer. Anyone want to buy a 2 TB Bolt?? I also wanted to keep my Bolt. But TIVO doesn't offer or make available the DirectTv Now app for their units. So I installed it on my fire tv instead. Can't install on TIVO. Install on someone else's platform. Sorry for the long answer. Hope it helped.
> 
> NOT a new member. Just haven't posted in awhile.


You need to stop getting upset that TiVo doesn't do the things you want or need and just use another product that does these things.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

mschnebly said:


> You need to stop getting upset that TiVo doesn't do the things you want or need and just use another product that does these things.


Upset is 10 yrs ago getting my first 62 inch tv that uses a cable card and COMCAST not being able to get it to work with the cable card and being told there's something wrong with my brand new tv. COMCAST techs told me to buy a new tv.

Upset is Several yrs later I bought my first TIVO that used a cable card. COMCAST couldn't at first get that to work either. I was told again that the brand new TIVO was defective and to buy another TIVO. It escalated to a level 3 tech before COMCAST could get it to work.

Upset is having my brother calling me asking if I wanted his computer , flat screen, everything. COMCAST couldn't fix his problem because his computer was dead!!! I took it home plugged it in and flipped the switch on the back. Surprise!!! It worked. I gave it back to him.

Since I cut the cord in November my internet connection sucks. I only have internet thru COMCAST now. My amazon echos are constantly saying they've lost their connections. Never happened before November.

I hate COMCAST , can you understand why??

I love TIVO , I put up with COMCAST so I could continue to use my TIVO. I no longer give tivo any money for a life time pass or monthly and I want to!!!

What's the difference between recording an analog signal on my first TIVO or a digital OTA signal today or recording a compressed digital cable tv signal to a TIVO box???

Is recording a streaming internet tv signal technically impossible ??

I want to give TIVO my money for a product I need and want.

Yes I am upset that Christmas can't come fast enough!!

I'm hearing TIVO has new products at CES in Las Vegas this year. Keeping my fingers crossed!!


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

72morgan said:


> Is recording a streaming internet tv signal technically impossible ??!


Via Tivo at this time? yes
The part you're missing is that the majority of streaming video is available on demand, because of that there is no reason for them to let you record, in addition the financial desires of the assorted providers is to keep you in bondage via streaming which is why you've only recently seen a handful offer a download option such as Netflix. The majority of people watching streaming media on demand have no interest in recording because it's "always there" (yeah, I know that's BS, but that's what they believe) The market you want to have created is so small and such a niche it will never be mainstream IMNSHO and I can't imagine Tivo wasting their resources on such a small money losing market.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

I agree with what you’re saying to a degree. 

If you pay close to $300 a month like I did to COMCAST for my “bundle” then everything is available on the web apps. But I never needed to go to the web apps cuz I had my TIVO. Never used the apps. 

DirectTv Now has less apps available cuz I only pay $25 a month for it. My bundle tv / internet / google phone is $100 a month. And less content is available on their apps. 

It is available like you said. Only if you pay the FULL price. But more and more like me aren’t. 

If you see the trends of how many subscribers ESPN etc is loosing , they are going somewhere. I don’t think ESPN would describe the customers they lost as a niche or inconsequential. And it’s not going to stop. 

6-8 months ago I was interested in buying Amazon stock. It was approx $800 a share. WTF. I didn’t buy any. Today it’s almost $1600 a share. 

30 yrs ago TIVO was a niche market. 

TIVO can get ahead of the curve or get left behind in this niche market they helped create.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

mdavej said:


> By definition you can watch on demand content any time, no need to record. If you really must have your own recordings, use Playon. I also have DirecTV Now but simply use the cloud DVR or individual streaming apps. Yes it would be nice if the app were on TiVo, but I'm not holding my breath. It's the same number of button presses for me to switch to Roku as it would be to watch on TiVo anyway - one.


you can watch programs ondemand as long as the ondemand service has the rights to air it


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

72morgan said:


> I agree with what you're saying to a degree.
> If you pay close to $300 a month like I did to COMCAST for my "bundle" then everything is available on the web apps. But I never needed to go to the web apps cuz I had my TIVO. Never used the apps.
> DirectTv Now has less apps available cuz I only pay $25 a month for it. My bundle tv / internet / google phone is $100 a month. And less content is available on their apps.
> It is available like you said. Only if you pay the FULL price. But more and more like me aren't.
> ...


Seriously man, what are you smoking or drinking? this post makes no sense at all "30 years ago Tivo was a niche market"? that would be 1988 and Tivo wasn't even a twinkle in anyone's eye.
And you're dead wrong, they are a MUCH smaller market than they were, downright tiny, they have no interest in pursuing money losing ideas with no user base.

You've clearly got some strong opinions, I just can't figure out what they're about or how they relate to the current Tivo corporation.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

dianebrat said:


> Seriously man, what are you smoking or drinking? this post makes no sense at all "30 years ago Tivo was a niche market"? that would be 1988 and Tivo wasn't even a twinkle in anyone's eye.
> And you're dead wrong, they are a MUCH smaller market than they were, downright tiny, they have no interest in pursuing money losing ideas with no user base.
> 
> You've clearly got some strong opinions, I just can't figure out what they're about or how they relate to the current Tivo corporation.


Back in the day. Before TIVO I bought my first RCA vcr for $1000 and tapes cost $20 to record 2 HRs of video, that was in 1978. Back then it was considered time-shifting. Now no one makes standalone vcrs anymore but everyone still "tapes" shows to their hard drives. Around 1998 TIVO got started (oops I said 30 yrs ago and not 20)No one had a TIVO , no one had a dvr, only vcr's. Direct Tv got big originally by hooking up with TIVO. Until they cut TIVO loose for their own royalty free units. Now everyone has a dvr, whether it's a Genie or a Hopper or some other OEM unit, Or a unit supplied by TIVO to the cable companies.

No you're dead wrong!! 20 yrs ago TIVO was a very very small part of the market. The market was (Betamax or VHS)VCR's and no one had any kind of DVR never mind a TIVO. The market today is huge and it's made up only of DVR's and they have a chunk of it. People only use dvrs today. 20 yrs ago they had a big piece of a small market, the piece that didn't use vcrs. I think that's what you call a "niche". 20 yrs ago they pursued the money loosing idea of digital video recording when 100% of the market was VCR what you would call today "Pursuing money losing ideas with no user base". Today they have a piece of a huge market the only market. The market they helped create. DVR/TIVO.
And what I'm saying is, is that there is a part of the market that needs serving. Recording a tv signal that comes not over the air digitally nor from a cable company but from a streaming service like Netflix or Sling or DirectTv Now!
A unit that can record a tv signal that comes over the internet!!

Am I the only one who can see the similarities with vcrs and TIVO 20 yrs ago and what Elon Musk and Tesla is doing today?? Today 99% of cars sold are internal combustion (approx). And "pursuing money losing ideas with no user base" like electric cars!!


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

mdavej said:


> By definition you can watch on demand content any time, no need to record.


He said streaming, not on-demand, although the examples he gave weren't very good.

There really is a market for a DSR (Digital Streaming Recorder). For example, Charter offers a live streaming service, where the content is ephemeral. A box which could record shows off such services would be every bit as useful as a TiVo recording OTA or cable. Unfortunately, to do that would probably require the active participation of the service providers.

But, even for services like Netflix, it could be useful. They cycle content. A movie which is there this month may not be next month.

Oh, and recording streams could also allow using TiVo's playback controls. I find it really painful to move around in Netflix or Amazon.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

From fiercecable.com

While Comcast continues to resist its demand for technology license payments, the new Rovi-fueled corporate incarnation of TiVo continues to rack up major victories.
Also from fiercecable;
While Rovi has proven amply determined to make Comcast pay license fees for the technology it uses in its video system, a source close to the cable company told FierceCable the operator has developed most of the tech used in its X1 operating system itself.

The source said that while Comcast once relied on licensed technologies to develop older analog video delivery systems, it now uses its ample research and development resources to cook most of the user experience features in the X1 platform.

The company today announced that Google has agreed to a multiyear patent license for technologies "expressly" used in the YouTube TV virtual MVPD platform.

Although TIVO has something like 10 million subscribers. I forgot they won that Dish lawsuit a few yrs back and everyone pays tribute/ royalties to TIVO/Rovi now.

Although Xfinity with their X1 are trying not to. Hence the lawsuit. 


m.s said:


> He said streaming, not on-demand, although the examples he gave weren't very good.
> 
> There really is a market for a DSR (Digital Streaming Recorder). For example, Charter offers a live streaming service, where the content is ephemeral. A box which could record shows off such services would be every bit as useful as a TiVo recording OTA or cable. Unfortunately, to do that would probably require the active participation of the service providers.
> 
> ...


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

I would want to record streaming for some of the same reasons I do on the Tivo--skipping commercials and having consistent FF/REW functionality. Even if I could just record what I was live streaming, that would be useful. I could start the stream recording, go off and do something else, then come back and watch and be able to pause, FF, REW, skip like I do when watching live sports.

One thing that really bugs me about streaming services is the sucky and inconsistent implementation of FF/REW. Each one does FF/REW differently, so it's usually an exercise in frustration when trying to move around in the show.

Commercials in streaming are also pretty bad. Typically FF/REW is disabled, but also the commercial selection is terrible. Often it's the same few commercials over and over. I don't need to see the same commercial for dog food 6 times in a single show, and sometimes multiple times in the same break!

I totally understand why recording of streaming is not supported, but I would still find it useful to have that ability.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

warrenn said:


> I would want to record streaming for some of the same reasons I do on the Tivo--skipping commercials and having consistent FF/REW functionality. Even if I could just record what I was live streaming, that would be useful. I could start the stream recording, go off and do something else, then come back and watch and be able to pause, FF, REW, skip like I do when watching live sports.
> 
> One thing that really bugs me about streaming services is the sucky and inconsistent implementation of FF/REW. Each one does FF/REW differently, so it's usually an exercise in frustration when trying to move around in the show.
> 
> ...


I agree wholeheartedly. I want the TIVO experience when I'm streaming. Being able to pause walk away make a sandwich and pick up where I left off without loosing my place.

My favorite TIVO was from Pioneer. Humax made their own version. Imagine today a Bolt with a DVD player built in that also could burn content onto a dvd. Ah the good old days!!! 
Damn DMCA!


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

72morgan said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. I want the TIVO experience when I'm streaming. Being able to pause walk away make a sandwich and pick up where I left off without loosing my place.
> 
> My favorite TIVO was from Pioneer. Humax made their own version. Imagine today a Bolt with a DVD player built in that also could burn content onto a dvd. Ah the good old days!!!
> Damn DMCA!


Well, absent copy protection, you can use pyTivo Desktop, etc. to transfer a recorded show to your PC and burn it there.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

72morgan said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. I want the TIVO experience when I'm streaming. Being able to pause walk away make a sandwich and pick up where I left off without loosing my place.


Streaming services today simply don't allow this. It is against their licensing and you'd need to hack their DRM to get it done which is a sure death-warrant for any respectable company.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Streaming services today simply don't allow this. It is against their licensing and you'd need to hack their DRM to get it done which is a sure death-warrant for any respectable company.


Wasn't this all settled back when vcrs were first introduced. If you're using a vcr or now a dvr and it's for your own personal use how can they stop you from using a TIVO like device if it existed?? How does Playon.tv get away with it?? 
I'd like more info on the streaming services not allowing this. Your sources please.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

You want to use the Spectrum Stream service I mentioned? You use a Charter app, available on a limited number of platforms, and which presumably uses encryption keys controlled by Spectrum. How are you going to decode the stream, change channels and capture the desired show without Charter actively supporting the implementation of an app on this theoretical box?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

72morgan said:


> Wasn't this all settled back when vcrs were first introduced. If you're using a vcr or now a dvr and it's for your own personal use how can they stop you from using a TIVO like device if it existed?? How does Playon.tv get away with it??
> I'd like more info on the streaming services not allowing this. Your sources please.


VCRs didn't have to break encryption to record and even TiVo needs a CableCARD to record encrypted shows which brings in limitations on what can be decoded/recorded.

The legal limits are the DMCA and ToS not allowing the decryption of the streams.

PlayOn is essentially a browser screen capture recorder which doesn't record the original streams but the screen capture version. Essentially the modern equivalent of the analog-loophole.

This link is a decent explanation - You Can Record Movies Off Netflix, Or Music Off Spotify, But You're Not Allowed To


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ah30k said:


> VCRs didn't have to break encryption to record and even TiVo needs a CableCARD to record encrypted shows which brings in limitations on what can be decoded/recorded.
> 
> The legal limits are the DMCA and ToS not allowing the decryption of the streams.
> 
> ...


A nice article there. I long have wondered if someone also could market a stream capture device that would sit between a stream stick/device and one's TV (easy way: a female USB connector that the stream stick/device plugs into, with a male USB connector on the other end, for the TV, and then a cable on the interceptor, carrying a copy of the intercepted signal away). Seemingly yes, but then one would fall afoul of one's contractual terms with the stream device company. And, despite what the article might suggest, I wonder if the company selling the interception device could be sued and found liable for inducement of breach of contract.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

72morgan said:


> I forgot they won that Dish lawsuit a few yrs back and everyone pays tribute/ royalties to TIVO/Rovi now.


I believe the patent lawsuit that's been giving them a lot of the income stops payments in 2018.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> ...I long have wondered if someone also could market a stream capture device that would sit between a stream stick/device and one's TV ...


Sitting in the digital stream would be against the DMCA law and technically very difficult because you'd need to break encryption. PlayOn just does the screen capture/scraping of the output. HDMI is encrypted and there are rules about devices needing to protect the underlying content very closely to get certified.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Sitting in the digital stream would be against the DMCA law and technically very difficult because you'd need to break encryption. PlayOn just does the screen capture/scraping of the output. HDMI is encrypted and there are rules about devices needing to protect the underlying content very closely to get certified.


Thanks--I didn't realize that HDMI is encrypted. (Dang, I dislike all this encryption left and right.)

I still wonder if PlayOn could be liable for inducement of contract breach--allowing its users to break the users' contractual obligation (where present) not to duplicate the content.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

TiVo can technically record the encoded bits of video from streaming services, just like it does with bits from the output of its QAM tuners for cable. But if it started doing it and advertising that feature, the streaming service providers would likely pull support of their apps from TiVo.

The trick would be TiVo/Rovi negotiating a download feature with streaming services. Then you can get TiVo's trick play functionality. However, it would probably be restricted to only certain services and specific programming, require regular Internet connectivity, can only store videos for 30 days, etc. Kind of like how Netflix's and Amazon's download to device feature works now.

Back in the day, TiVo's Amazon client allowed the ability to download. I used this feature quite a bit since at the time our Internet speed was slow. But now the streaming services, and the licensing agreements they have with content providers, want complete control.

My current solution is a TiVo with a large hard drive and an HBO subscription.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Sitting in the digital stream would be against the DMCA law and technically very difficult because you'd need to break encryption. PlayOn just does the screen capture/scraping of the output. HDMI is encrypted and there are rules about devices needing to protect the underlying content very closely to get certified.


Ah30k thanks for that link. It was most informative. You were the light at the end of a dark tunnel with the info I needed. Thanx again.

Still would like a SVR from TIVO. hopefully in time.


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## argicida (Feb 17, 2009)

warrenn said:


> I would want to record streaming for some of the same reasons I do on the Tivo--skipping commercials and having consistent FF/REW functionality. Even if I could just record what I was live streaming, that would be useful. I could start the stream recording, go off and do something else, then come back and watch and be able to pause, FF, REW, skip like I do when watching live sports.
> ....
> 
> I totally understand why recording of streaming is not supported, but I would still find it useful to have that ability.


Exactly - when I "DVR" something with Youtube TV it is usually replaced with an on-demand version with up to a dozen un-skippable commercials.

There has got to be a way to make this work with Tivo.


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## lisabranam (Apr 5, 2018)

I just know that my Tivo Roamio Pro is the best DVR that is out there. I am sure it will satisfy all your streaming needs.

Despite its ultra-fast speed, it suits with my Charter Cable TV.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

Been away for awhile. DirectTv Now offers a limited cloud Dvr for FREE (included) The future is streaming and the cloud. I realize now, a stand-alone TiVo streaming box is chasing the past. The future is a TiVo app that works with Directv Now, (20 Hours included)the superior functionality of TiVo with access to more cloud storage or saving to a usb storage on Amazon fire stick or tv. Directv now can be glitchy , but is TiVo worth $14 a month for service plus $100 a month for crappy Comcast. NO!!! I let my TiVo subscription run out and I’ll be putting my Bolt on EBay.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

See you later, if you can live with such de minimus storage, more power to you.

Lifetime service remains the way to go.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

72morgan said:


> Been away for awhile. DirectTv Now offers a limited cloud Dvr for FREE (included) The future is streaming and the cloud. I realize now, a stand-alone TiVo streaming box is chasing the past. The future is a TiVo app that works with Directv Now, (20 Hours included)the superior functionality of TiVo with access to more cloud storage or saving to a usb storage on Amazon fire stick or tv. Directv now can be glitchy , but is TiVo worth $14 a month for service plus $100 a month for crappy Comcast. NO!!! I let my TiVo subscription run out and I'll be putting my Bolt on EBay.


Wait, is there anything you get OTA with an antennae and record on the Bolt. If you can get your locals, any streaming service with a cloud dvr can be used for just things you can't get over the air. Sure dump Comcast but don't get rid of a hardware dvr so quickly.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Mikeguy said:


> Thanks--I didn't realize that HDMI is encrypted. (Dang, I dislike all this encryption left and right.)
> 
> I still wonder if PlayOn could be liable for inducement of contract breach--allowing its users to break the users' contractual obligation (where present) not to duplicate the content.


Playon operates in a legal grey area and isn't big enough to upset the industry, a large company could legally crush them in months.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

You 100% have the right to record anything that comes into your house for personal use. For that reason alone, play on will continue to be viable. Streaming services try to make it hard for you to not record programming but you have a right to it.

They can restrict methods but since play on is a screen scrape, it is fine.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Screen-scrape is like the old analog loophole. 

If the service was hacking the encrypted stream and saving the raw signal then it would be in violation of the DMCA.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> You 100% have the right to record anything that comes into your house for personal use. For that reason alone, play on will continue to be viable. Streaming services try to make it hard for you to not record programming but you have a right to it.
> 
> They can restrict methods but since play on is a screen scrape, it is fine.


Except when it's streamed you're subject to TOS and if a service thinks you violated it, they'll kick you off the service.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

tenthplanet said:


> Except when it's streamed you're subject to TOS and if a service thinks you violated it, they'll kick you off the service.


Yep, but the difference is copyright violation vs a ToS violation.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

tenthplanet said:


> Playon operates in a legal grey area and isn't big enough to upset the industry, a large company could legally crush them in months.


There is nothing gray about this. Replay TV never lost in court despite having a 'send show' feature that facilitated sharing of copyrighted material. PlayOn works exactly like a VCR.



ah30k said:


> Screen-scrape is like the old analog loophole.
> 
> If the service was hacking the encrypted stream and saving the raw signal then it would be in violation of the DMCA.


DMCA was designed to put all of this in the courts. The entire concept of Fair Use is a concession that the FCC overstepped in copyright law. The fact that Congress gave the Librarian of Congress jurisdiction over Fair Use is simply Congress shirking responsibility for caving to Big Media donors. If you want to see how loud money talks, compare Constitutional protection of intellectual property to regulatory protections added in the last century.

PlayOn has been a thorn in Roku's side since 2008. Roku and MediaMall only recently came to an accord allowing an Official PlayOn app in the Roku Store. Roku, of course, has its roots in Netflix. So, there has been plenty of time and money for someone to challenge the legality of the product. No one has done it. Some information here...

Is PlayOn Legal?

It's not in anyone's interest to spook potential users of PlayOn with FUD.

The reason TiVo, Channel Master, and others have shied away from stream recording is that they benefit from having the content providers' apps on their devices. No point rocking that boat when most people would rather launch an Netflix app than use a PlayOn app to stream or record a Netflix program.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> A nice article there. I long have wondered if someone also could market a stream capture device that would sit between a stream stick/device and one's TV (easy way: a female USB connector that the stream stick/device plugs into, with a male USB connector on the other end, for the TV, and then a cable on the interceptor, carrying a copy of the intercepted signal away). Seemingly yes, but then one would fall afoul of one's contractual terms with the stream device company. And, despite what the article might suggest, I wonder if the company selling the interception device could be sued and found liable for inducement of breach of contract.


That device exists. Actually several competing products fit that description. The AverMedia Live Gamer Portable does exactly what you describe and has the option of writing the stream to an sd card as well.


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## Luke M (Nov 5, 2002)

Tivo used to be able to seamlessly record (free) web video, but this was removed in 2015.

Tivo removed Video Podcasts from Tivo service


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

powrcow said:


> Back in the day, TiVo's Amazon client allowed the ability to download. I used this feature quite a bit since at the time our Internet speed was slow. But now the streaming services, and the licensing agreements they have with content providers, want complete control.


Apparently the issue is that streaming providers WANT complete control and since they own the copyright, they get what they want.

That sucks but that's the way it is. People who report okay streaming experiences don't have my experience. I've never had reliable streams, ever. Not just the well known fact that the Hulu app on Tivo blows, but I can do a stream on my smart TV not through Tivo and end up with the exact same lack of reliable stream there. Reliable streams don't happen in my house and never have. As far as I can tell the resolution used in streams keeps going up as the available bandwidth goes up, forever ensuring a low reliability experience.

I want to buffer the next episode of each series in my list. Let it download over the slow and unreliable network at its own pace and once buffered I don't have to care.

I do want to be able to fast forward and reverse at will, but it's not about that. It's about the fact that a recorded show is reliable and a streamed show never has been.

I do want to be able to fast forward through commercials, but even that's not a big deal to me. It's about the fact that a recorded show is reliable and a streamed show never has been.

I know I'm not going to get buffering of streams, and I know why. But it seems like no one ever knows why I want it. it's not why others say they want it. It's because streams often fail for me. They stall. They complain of lack of bandwidth. They go into the blue spinner after a commercial break and maybe don't recover.

People say that streaming content is "always" "available". Those words, they don't mean what you seem to think they mean. The blue spinner means that show is not "available". Failing to come back from a commercial break is not "always" available. Freezing as it figures out the next frame isn't "always available".

Sometimes I make it an hour through a stream. I only get troubles about every other hour. But the streaming experience doesn't even slightly resemble the recorded experience. For me it never has. Not ever.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

dfreybur said:


> Apparently the issue is that streaming providers WANT complete control and since they own the copyright, they get what they want.
> 
> That sucks but that's the way it is. People who report okay streaming experiences don't have my experience. I've never had reliable streams, ever. Not just the well known fact that the Hulu app on Tivo blows, but I can do a stream on my smart TV not through Tivo and end up with the exact same lack of reliable stream there. Reliable streams don't happen in my house and never have. As far as I can tell the resolution used in streams keeps going up as the available bandwidth goes up, forever ensuring a low reliability experience.
> 
> ...


Well said. This is the majority reason I have not moved to Hydra. There is no way of bringing prerecorded video onto the tivo box. Streaming IS NOT a replacement for having the content local on the device at play time. There is a reason NO, not one, commercial theater uses a streaming model for audience playback and I don't want it in my home theater either.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

jcthorne said:


> Well said. This is the majority reason I have not moved to Hydra. There is no way of bringing prerecorded video onto the tivo box. Streaming IS NOT a replacement for having the content local on the device at play time. There is a reason NO, not one, commercial theater uses a streaming model for audience playback and I don't want it in my home theater either.


While I definitely agree that I much prefer to have content transferred back to the TiVo (and one of the reasons that we've not moved to Hydra as well) for the playback control that you get, I have to ask do you not use any of the streaming services (Netflix, Amazon, Hulu etc) based on your last sentence about not having streaming in your home theater?

Scott


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

jcthorne said:


> Well said. This is the majority reason I have not moved to Hydra. There is no way of bringing prerecorded video onto the tivo box. Streaming IS NOT a replacement for having the content local on the device at play time. There is a reason NO, not one, commercial theater uses a streaming model for audience playback and I don't want it in my home theater either.


Moving to Hydra has ZERO to do with stream reliability. As I wrote in my post, no one seems to get what it's about for me.

Stream reliability is about cargo capacity of my ISP, plus capacity of my home network if anyone else is streaming. Plus about capacity at every step along the way all the way back to the many data centers of the streaming provider. That ALL didn't matter back when Amazon rentals were temporary downloads that automatically deleted. And the switch to Hydra had ZERO effect on any of it.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

dfreybur said:


> I do want to be able to fast forward through commercials, but even that's not a big deal to me. It's about the fact that a recorded show is reliable and a streamed show never has been.
> 
> I know I'm not going to get buffering of streams, and I know why. But it seems like no one ever knows why I want it. it's not why others say they want it. It's because streams often fail for me. They stall. They complain of lack of bandwidth. They go into the blue spinner after a commercial break and maybe don't recover.
> 
> ...


I don't think I can even remember the last time a show I was streaming had to stop and buffer. My streaming is as reliable as cable or OTA.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> I don't think I can even remember the last time a show I was streaming had to stop and buffer. My streaming is as reliable as cable or OTA.


Streaming for me is FAR more reliable than OTA because of occasional reception glitches with the latter (mainly due to multipath interference, I think). Streaming is also FAR more reliable for me than either Dish or DirecTV satellite were too, due to rain fade problems with both of them.



dfreybur said:


> People who report okay streaming experiences don't have my experience. I've never had reliable streams, ever.


Your experience just isn't normal, at least if you have wired home internet service with a downstream speed of at least 10 Mbps. I know lots of people who stream video regularly and they don't have the issues you're having. Have you tried contacting technical support at your ISP? Something isn't right somewhere, whether it's in their network, or in the modem or router you connect to their service, or in the devices you use to stream. If possible, connect your streaming device to your router via wired ethernet rather than wi-fi. If you use wi-fi, see if moving the physical location of the router around makes a difference. Wi-fi signals can be degraded or blocked by lots of things.

The entire problem could possibly be in the specific combination of apps and devices you're using. Yes, the Hulu app on TiVo has a reputation of being generally craptastic. And I had occasional problems with the Hulu app on my LG smart TV for awhile back when I was using it. (Now I exclusively stream through an Apple TV 4K.) In general, it seems like apps aren't as well supported on smart TVs as on dedicated streaming devices.

Maybe try buying the current model Roku Express. It's only $29 from Walmart and comes with a $10 Vudu credit, so it's a pretty small investment (and could easily be returned after a few days if it doesn't help). My parents use that exact model and it's been fine for them (although we did have to swap out the first one as it apparently had a bum wi-fi chip). They use it with 25 Mbps cable internet via wi-fi and they don't have problems with pausing, buffering, apps crashing, etc. It works fine.


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## coopertwist (Jul 6, 2007)

In my house streaming is great, but. We have Directv as the main entertainment and Comcast for internet and local tv bundle since it was cheaper than standalone service. 4 smart TVs LG OLED, 4 ipads, 4 cellphones, 4 laptops, 6 security cameras that use the cloud, 1 Bolt, 1 Mini Vox, between the kids gaming, netflix, hulu, amazon, itunes 4k videos they own, music streaming. We hit the 900 GB every month. Something will have to give because we will hit the 1 TB limit every month if I got rid of Directv and went to streaming and cloud dvr version of it.


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Your experience just isn't normal, at least if you have wired home internet service with a downstream speed of at least 10 Mbps. I know lots of people who stream video regularly and they don't have the issues you're having. Have you tried contacting technical support at your ISP? Something isn't right somewhere, whether it's in their network, or in the modem or router you connect to their service, or in the devices you use to stream.


Thanks for this. I've opened tickets with our ISP. It happens with Roku, smart TV, Tivo, you name it.



> If possible, connect your streaming device to your router via wired ethernet rather than wi-fi. If you use wi-fi, see if moving the physical location of the router around makes a difference. Wi-fi signals can be degraded or blocked by lots of things.


Running a physical cable gave the same results. Low reliability of streams. On either Tivo of Roku of Amazon Fire Stick.

Our latest smart TV is only a couple of months old. We haven't tried physical cat-5e but it burps slightly less than other boxes.

I have tried a wireless repeater. What a disaster. Everything reset hourly. For two resets after we unplugged it.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> Thanks for this. I've opened tickets with our ISP. It happens with Roku, smart TV, Tivo, you name it.
> 
> Running a physical cable gave the same results. Low reliability of streams. On either Tivo of Roku of Amazon Fire Stick.
> 
> ...


OK, sounds like the problem is either in your actual internet service (and you've opened tickets with them -- maybe they can check the physical line running from the street to your home?) or in your internet equipment (gateway, modem and/or router). What type of service do you have, BTW? Cable, DSL, fiber? From which company? And what is your speed?


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> While I definitely agree that I much prefer to have content transferred back to the TiVo (and one of the reasons that we've not moved to Hydra as well) for the playback control that you get, I have to ask do you not use any of the streaming services (Netflix, Amazon, Hulu etc) based on your last sentence about not having streaming in your home theater?
> 
> Scott


Generally no. Only the once in a blue moon that something I really want to watch I have not yet downloaded and stored on the tivo or I want to go into our archive and I use the plex server with local storage for that.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

dfreybur said:


> Moving to Hydra has ZERO to do with stream reliability. As I wrote in my post, no one seems to get what it's about for me.
> 
> Stream reliability is about cargo capacity of my ISP, plus capacity of my home network if anyone else is streaming. Plus about capacity at every step along the way all the way back to the many data centers of the streaming provider. That ALL didn't matter back when Amazon rentals were temporary downloads that automatically deleted. And the switch to Hydra had ZERO effect on any of it.


But Hydra has EVERYTHING to do with the ability to play content locally. Hydra effectively disables locally stored content viewing except for recorded linear channels. NO THANK YOU.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

The Modulus DVR media system can record streaming video.

Frequently Asked Questions


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> OK, sounds like the problem is either in your actual internet service (and you've opened tickets with them -- maybe they can check the physical line running from the street to your home?) or in your internet equipment (gateway, modem and/or router). What type of service do you have, BTW? Cable, DSL, fiber? From which company? And what is your speed?


Still, why would I experience this while living in at least five residences in a row across more than a decade, and others not? Chicago metro, San Antonio, Austin. Many different types of ISP supplied gear. Either wired or wireless. Sure I've opened tickets with every ISP I've had but none of that matters given it's happened with ALL of them in multiple metro regions.

Our current broadband is AT&T. If I had cable as well it might be called U-verse but I just have broadband. The second level upgrade of bandwidth, making sure I have enough for many people to stream in parallel up to the point it enters the house at least. It does what appears to be MoCA inside the house to get from the box outside across the house to the router in the office. We use the wireless internal to the house because hard wiring with cat-5e cable didn't change anything at all. We tried a repeater but bluntly the Tivo in the room next to the officer performs worse than other gear in other rooms so it shouldn't be the over the air hop.

This morning I watched half an episode of Lost in Space on Netflix. Then an episode of Chopped on Hulu. It burped during a *commercial*. For a total of one burp in an hour. As this burp was about 15 seconds that's much better than average. Streams don't burp every hour but I can't remember a 2 our period without at least one instance of sitting for more than a minute waiting for a hang to stop, no matter which ISP. AT&T is our 2nd ISP in two years as some local cable company came with the new construction house the first year so we used their broadband but not their cable package. Of course identical failure rate with that ISP just like with every ISP in every metro region I've lived in since streaming started as a technology.

I use broadband to work from home so I've had broadband of one sort of another at home since the late 1990s and modems before that since the mid 1980s.

I should watch TV in your house. Unfortunately maybe I'd bring my own "anti-streaming rays" with me.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

dfreybur said:


> Still, why would I experience this while living in at least five residences in a row across more than a decade, and others not? Chicago metro


I stream Netflix content in Chicago. It is very reliable. I have RCN with my own 16 channel modem and my Roamio is connected via Cat5 to my Linksys router.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> Still, why would I experience this while living in at least five residences in a row across more than a decade, and others not? Chicago metro, San Antonio, Austin. Many different types of ISP supplied gear. Either wired or wireless. Sure I've opened tickets with every ISP I've had but none of that matters given it's happened with ALL of them in multiple metro regions.


Oof. OK, those are some important details I was missing to begin with. Very odd. I mean, it's not odd to have a video stream pause and buffer every now and then -- I probably see it on my TV a handful of times over the course of a year. But to have it happen at least once every two hours of video, that's bad. I don't have any data to back this up, but my impression is that such a situation is very odd, at least when it comes to video being streamed over a home broadband connection (not a cellular connection).

I wonder if it could be a result of bufferbloat, which is a common problem among routers. Read here if you want to test your router for it and see how you might fix the problem if your router has it. (Or, if you want the full explanation of what bufferbloat is, read here.) FYI, I did the bufferbloat test from the first page linked above and it scored my overall AT&T Internet connection (same thing you have) as A and gave me a score of B specifically for bufferbloat. I'm using the only AT&T-supplied BGW210 gateway (no additional router).


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Mine scored good too.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

DigitalDawn said:


> The Modulus DVR media system can record streaming video.
> 
> Frequently Asked Questions


Interesting I didn't recall the prior brief discussion on this one here or I purposefully forgot it since the only prices I could find in searching was $2,899 (and only available through installers?). So you can't really compare something like this with TiVo. 

Scott


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

dfreybur said:


> Still, why would I experience this while living in at least five residences in a row across more than a decade, and others not? Chicago metro, San Antonio, Austin. Many different types of ISP supplied gear. Either wired or wireless. Sure I've opened tickets with every ISP I've had but none of that matters given it's happened with ALL of them in multiple metro regions.





dfreybur said:


> This morning I watched half an episode of Lost in Space on Netflix. Then an episode of Chopped on Hulu. It burped during a *commercial*. For a total of one burp in an hour. As this burp was about 15 seconds that's much better than average. Streams don't burp every hour but I can't remember a 2 our period without at least one instance of sitting for more than a minute waiting for a hang to stop, no matter which ISP. AT&T is our 2nd ISP in two years as some local cable company came with the new construction house the first year so we used their broadband but not their cable package. Of course identical failure rate with that ISP just like with every ISP in every metro region I've lived in since streaming started as a technology.


I'm with NashGuy as that sounds very odd based on our experience which admittedly has been much more limited since we've only had Comcast (a minute hang being "typical?).

We use Netflix, Amazon and recently Hulu with our Roamio Pro and I can't recall the last time that I saw any kind of buffering or interruption while watching a show (and certainly wouldn't have been a minute).

So what does your speedtest show currently with AT&T?

Speed test - how fast is your internet? | DSLReports, ISP Information

Scott


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Legal? PlayLater Lets You Record All of Netflix for $20

Interesting article by a guy who took the time to talk to experts. Nothing different than what I said except he has credibility due to his research.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

jcthorne said:


> But Hydra has EVERYTHING to do with the ability to play content locally. Hydra effectively disables locally stored content viewing except for recorded linear channels. NO THANK YOU.


I thought Plex would accomplish this, am I mistaken? You say as much in an earlier post.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

jrtroo said:


> I thought Plex would accomplish this, am I mistaken? You say as much in an earlier post.


Plex is an app to let you stream from your own servers (or others). Its still streaming, not local content on the tivo. When using content stored on the local network and served by a well endowed server, it works pretty well but still nowhere near the seamlessness of watching a video that is on the tivo drive. It usually streams through a video just fine but one touch of the REW button and all bets are off.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

HerronScott said:


> Interesting I didn't recall the prior brief discussion on this one here or I purposefully forgot it since the only prices I could find in searching was $2,899 (and only available through installers?). So you can't really compare something like this with TiVo.
> 
> Scott


I wasn't comparing it to TiVo, just stating that it existed.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

jcthorne said:


> Plex is an app to let you stream from your own servers (or others). Its still streaming, not local content on the tivo. When using content stored on the local network and served by a well endowed server, it works pretty well but still nowhere near the seamlessness of watching a video that is on the tivo drive.


Well, your quote said "locally", this seems to provide the means to watch your content, but for perhaps ComSkip or moving around for a sporting event.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

I borrowed a friend's SD streaming Netflix account. It shows 480 and 1.x Mbps. The picture is pretty good. No disruptions but I have 25 Mbps+ internet speed so 1.x is not taxed. I also have better hardware than standard cable equipment, which may help.

Streaming from various servers online can be recorded. I downloaded a couple of movies that are in theaters now. The quality of the streaming was poor and the quality of the download was poor. So streaming content can be recorded, it's just not implemented by the various apps.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

I said awhile back;

Been away for awhile. DirectTv Now offers a limited cloud Dvr for FREE (included) The future is streaming and the cloud. I realize now, a stand-alone TiVo streaming box is chasing the past. The future is a TiVo app that works with Directv Now, (20 Hours included)the superior functionality of TiVo with access to more cloud storage or saving to a usb storage on Amazon fire stick or tv. Directv now can be glitchy , but is TiVo worth $14 a month for service plus $100 a month for crappy Comcast. NO!!! I let my TiVosubscription run out and I'll be putting my Bolt on EBay.
.....Above From earlier this month

I was asking TIVO to record Directv Now or streaming Video!!!! People are cutting cords !!!
TIVO wasn't LISTENING !!! Amazon was!! TIVOs Stocks down 10%. Don't listen to your customers, Amazon is gonna eat your lunch!!! I can always hope Amazon will buy TIVO. I can always dream. I'm also dreaming of attaching an external hard drive to my Fire Tv to store my recorded streaming videos!!


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## Kirby JD (Apr 22, 2019)

Yes there is a way. A bit tedious to set up, but most definitely works well for both types of cords going out of your DVR or streaming device, also camcorders and VCR's and such: RCA (i.e., red-white-yellow) and HDMI. Despite this being an old thread, thought I'd throw in what I know since all of what I've read here is about boxes and DVR's.

A "video capture device" does it. I have 2, one for RCA and one for HDMI, and both work great. The device is connected to by either the RCA cord or HDMI cord from your VCR, streaming box, DVR, DVD player, camcorder, whatever. Then from the capture device, a USB cord goes to your computer. On your computer there has to be program running for capturing/recording video from the video capture device. Some of these devices come with a program, some don't.

The RCA device I got is the Diamond Multimedia VC500 (or "Diamond VC500" as its title is on Amazon), and it came with CyberLink PowerDirector 12. But my preference is Nero Vision because it can capture/record in MP4 format with much better quality than MPEG-2 and much less disk space used than MPEG-2 for the same length of video time-wise, and at least to me, I believe the MP4 abilities in Nero Vision are better than those in CyberLink PowerDirector. Another RCA video capture device I'd trust in half-a-heartbeat is the Elgato, but it's a lot more expensive than the Diamond so I wasn't able to get that one, otherwise I would have. The Diamond VC500 works good and makes smooth non-choppy videos, video and audio are in sync with each other, so it makes me curious what additional resolutions and other abilities does the Elgato have the VC500 doesn't.

The HDMI device I got which is the MiraBox, came with no program so you'd have to get a program if you don't already have one. The MiraBox also works very good. You plug the USB cord into the computer and then it takes care of installing the drivers so you just wait. I've test-captured from the Sony Blu-Ray player I just got which has only an HDMI output (no RCA, no component, only HDMI), playing a DVD, playing a Blu-Ray disc, and a few streaming shows from YouTube and Hulu and Netflix. The quality is good in all recordings, and the video and audio are in sync with each other. There are other HDMI video capture devices that are more expensive which I'd have gotten one of those, but my finances dictate getting the least expensive one that seems trustworthy by the proportion of reviews that are 1's and 2's relative to the quantity of 5's and 4's but only if the 4's and 5's are at least about, around, 85%.
My reason for posting here in this Tivo forum despite describing how I test-captured using a Sony Blu-ray player, is because I just joined here brand new after finding a used Tivo Roamio I was going to connect my new antenna to, but to my dismay found out just today this Roamio is a model that works only with Cable companies. So while I'd been looking around here earlier I came across this discussion and remembered it.

I first searched for a converter/adapter to go from HDMI to RCA and there are many that are nicely inexpensive. From the reviews of 1's and 2's for those devices I looked at, I'd say there's far too many of those devices sold that mess up in seemingly random ways for some people but not for others, of black-and-white video instead of color, no audio, and video and audio out of sync. To me, I think of those converter devices as an awesome endeavor to make it simple but I think there's too much technological difference between the HDMI signal and the RCA signal for such a converter to be reliable, trustworthy, and over time. So, at least for me, I simply don't. For the people who have one and it's working, hey that's totally awesome and glad they have one that works well.


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