# Dual source Freeview & Sky+ question



## itm (Aug 12, 2001)

I'm thinking of abandoning my analogue Tivo tuner and going for a freeview box to accompany Sky+ as a Tivo source. I understand that I'll need an rf-modulated STB, but I was wondering how to setup the IR remote, as I currently use an RF2Remote (rather than the wands) to control Sky+.

I seem to remember seeing an adapter on this forum which split the IR cable from the Tivo, so that I can use the RF2Remote as well as the wands, but can't find it. Could anyone provide a pointer, or an alternative solution?


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## Fred Smith (Oct 5, 2002)

Get a 3.5mm mono headphone splitter i.e.:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=1169&criteria=3.5mm headphone splitter&doy=19m1

This is an example only as the price is very high.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Can someone point me at the idiots guide to dual-source?

Can you set tivo to control two setup boxes? cable and freeview ?!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Can someone point me at the idiots guide to dual-source?
> 
> Can you set tivo to control two setup boxes? tivo and freeview ?!


You just re-run Guided Setup and pick the appropriate Sky Digibox and Freeview box and use one IR lead wand to control the Sky Digibox and one on the Tivo box or use a headphone splitter to control the Sky box by RF2 direct input as discussed while using the wands for the Freeview box. Also the Freeview box signal has to be input through the aerial socket as RF so you need a Freeview box with an RF modulator rather than only Scart. The Sky box is input by Scart as normal.

The only channels free on Freeview that are not free on Sky Digital are UK History, E4, More4, FTN, UK Bright Ideas, The Hits and TMF. Everything else is free on Sky Freesat plus loads of free Sky channels that aren't on Freeview like CNN, Euronews, Zone Reality, Zone Horror, Zone Thriller True Movies 1 & 2, Movies4Men 1 & 2, Russia Today, France Today, Golf Channel, Wine Channel, Overseas Property Channel etc.

See P.2 of www.tivo.co.uk/Chapter4-255SSUG.pdf for the guide on a dual Freeview and Sky setup.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> The only channels free on Freeview that are not free on Sky Digital are UK History, E4, More4, FTN, UK Bright Ideas, The Hits and TMF. Everything else is free on Sky Freesat plus loads of free Sky channels that aren't on Freeview like CNN, Euronews, Zone Reality, Zone Horror, Zone Thriller True Movies 1 & 2, Movies4Men 1 & 2, Russia Today, France Today, Golf Channel, Wine Channel, Overseas Property Channel etc.


UK History or Russia Today, More4 or Zone Reality, E4 of Movies4Men. Tough call.


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## itm (Aug 12, 2001)

I just had a thought...if I repeat guided setup to add the freeview 2nd source, will I lose my season passes & wishlists (and recordings)?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

No.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

itm said:


> I just had a thought...if I repeat guided setup to add the freeview 2nd source, will I lose my season passes & wishlists (and recordings)?


No SPs and Wishlists are all preserved and even if you change single platform from say Sky Digital to Freeview they are carried over so long as the same actual channel is on the other platform.

Channel numbers are irrelevant to Tivo as it identifies BBC1 London by some other hidden channel id in its database so it considers 101 BBC1 London on Sky to be the same as 1 on Freeview.

It does get complicated if you move from Freeview in London to using say Sky Digital in Glasgow and then your Ch 1 BBC1 London Freeview Channel becomes 971 or something on Sky Digital as that is the number for getting BBC1 London out of region in Scotland.

But basically if the same channel both name and content wise exists on the other platform SPs and Wislists are carried over. On dual source setups Tivo tries to use Sky Digital then NTL Digital then Freeview then Analogue Cable and finally aerial as its preferred program source if the same channel appears on the two different platforms as used in Channels I Receive.

The main problem is that you have to use RF/aerial input for one of your two sources (usually the Freeview box) so the picture quality isn't as good for the secondary program source but then you will only be recording a few channels off that from time to time.


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## itm (Aug 12, 2001)

As I'm moving from analogue terrestrial to Freeview, and most of my SPs are for terrestrial channels, it looks as if I'll need to be careful as it's likely that the channel names will be different between analog & digital.
Maybe I'll have some work to do re-creating the SPs....


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## itm (Aug 12, 2001)

I suppose I'll also lose stereo sound if I use modulated RF output from a Freeview box?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

itm said:


> As I'm moving from analogue terrestrial to Freeview, and most of my SPs are for terrestrial channels, it looks as if I'll need to be careful as it's likely that the channel names will be different between analog & digital.
> Maybe I'll have some work to do re-creating the SPs....


No its not the name used that matters its the unique region and channel ID Tribune have assigned to its EPG content so your SPs will carry through.

For instance Tribune considers 1 - BBC1 London Aerial to be the same channel content wise as 1 BBC1 London Freeview. Some of us have changed platform several times so we do know what happens in these situations.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

itm said:


> I suppose I'll also lose stereo sound if I use modulated RF output from a Freeview box?


Yes but you won't be recording many channels from it will you if you are also using Sky as your main source. 

You could always pay Sky a subscription instead and get the channels there if it bothers you that much.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> On dual source setups Tivo tries to use Sky Digital then NTL Digital then Freeview then Analogue Cable and finally aerial as its preferred program source if the same channel appears on the two different platforms as used in Channels I Receive.


It tries to record from the channel with the highest number.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> It tries to record from the channel with the highest number.


What evidence do you have for this and where would be the sense in that approach by Tivo?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

It's one of those things which got worked out a long time ago - try it yourself if you don't believe me!

It will usually have the effect of recording from the STB (all Sky channes are over 100) rather than Rf or DTT (all are below 100) and is easy to program! In fact it may even just be an artifact of the way the Linup objects are loaded.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> It's one of those things which got worked out a long time ago - try it yourself if you don't believe me!
> 
> It will usually have the effect of recording from the STB (all Sky channes are over 100) rather than Rf or DTT (all are below 100) and is easy to program!


Are there any Freeview channels that are duplicated on Sky Digital where the Freeview channel number is higher than the Sky one? I don't think so and so don't have a way to check it out.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

No, but there are Freeview channels with lower numbers than aeriel ones.

It may be that it just prefers the SCART input under all circumstances.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> No, but there are Freeview channels with lower numbers than aeriel ones.
> 
> It may be that it just prefers the SCART input under all circumstances.


The same Aerial channels that are also on Freeview have exactly the same channel number not a lower one though and so how does your suggestion work then.

My understanding was Tivo went for the best quality source no doubt based on its Resources Editor table quality settings, which always leads to it preferring Sky Digital ahead of Freeview as you have to put Freeview on RF on a dual source setup.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> The same Aerial channels that are also on Freeview have exactly the same channel number not a lower one though and so how does your suggestion work then.


Disagree with that statement.

On your TV you may have 1,2,3,4,5 for BBC1, BBC2,ITV,C4,Five but on Tivo you have to use the RF channelnumbers so in my case

62,55,59,65,(52 blizzard)

I have several freeview boxes but dont use them with Tivo. Mine has a Multiroom digibox on it and Terrestrial for BBC1, BBC2, ITV, C4 because our Freeview reception is iffy being in an area designated as No Reception.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

katman said:


> Disagree with that statement.
> 
> On your TV you may have 1,2,3,4,5 for BBC1, BBC2,ITV,C4,Five but on Tivo you have to use the RF channelnumbers so in my case
> 
> ...


Its so long since I used an aerial channel now that I had forgotten how badly Tivo handles this. It seems bizarre, in view of the incorporation of the UHF internal tuner, that they didn't actually let you just pick the frequency to tune them into and then pick the surrogate actual channel numbers they are generally known under (ie 1, 2, 3 , 4 and Five).

But anyhow as I don't have aerial on my Sky and Freeview setup I can't select these channels to check if they would have higher priority than Freeview when recording. When I had Freeview and Aerial the only aerial channel I ever enabled was ITV Medidian, which wasn't the one being received on my Freeview box (ITV London).


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Its so long since I used an aerial channel now that I had forgotten how badly Tivo handles this. It seems bizarre, in view of the incorporation of the UHF internal tuner, that they didn't actually let you just pick the frequency to tune them into and then pick the surrogate actual channel numbers they are generally known under (ie 1, 2, 3 , 4 and Five).


It's entirely consistent with the channel number handling on other platforms: you type the actual channel number you want.

If you want to add functionality on top of that and choose channels by channel ID then use the onscreen menus or, even better, don't watch Live TV at all and just let TiVo handle it all for you


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> It's entirely consistent with the channel number handling on other platforms: you type the actual channel number you want.
> 
> If you want to add functionality on top of that and choose channels by channel ID then use the onscreen menus or, even better, don't watch Live TV at all and just let TiVo handle it all for you


But on other platforms you merely send the actual friendly channel number the box also presents to the end user as being the channel number in numeric sequence on its displays and not the frequency in Mhz that the box actually tunes to. Whereas UHF channel numbers are a bizarre device being neither the friendly number which the channel transmitted is known by on the channel display on the tv to the end user, nor the UHF frequency in Mhz. They are just an arbitrary way to cut up the 400Mhz of UHF spectrum allocated into large wide chunks.

Now presumably in some places they must use also use Channels 1 to 20 or Channels 70 to 100 of this apparently arbitrary scale. Heaven only knows when the UHF channel number scale was originally set up although no doubt Wikipedia or some other source could tell me. I have a vague memory of my grandmother's 405 line set that had odd channel letters like A, B, C, D, etc although I may be misremembering through the haze of more than 30 years ago.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

In the US they refer to channels by their UHF channel number ("Channel 22 News"), so that's how TiVo works. There is no equivalent of the convention that we have that BBC 1 is on 1, ITV is on 3 etc. That's just a habit that has developed of how you happen to tune your TV in to match the presets on the telly.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> In the US they refer to channels by their UHF channel number ("Channel 22 News"), so that's how TiVo works. There is no equivalent of the convention that we have that BBC 1 is on 1, ITV is on 3 etc. That's just a habit that has developed of how you happen to tune your TV in to match the presets on the telly.


A function clearly of us having a structured heavily government controlled nationwide television network compared to the US regional one with completely different channels in different areas. Also the fact that for so many years we had so many fewer channels nationally in the US of A and of course the fact that the names of all our five analogue channels apart from ITV 1 (nee ITV) comply with this orderly channels 1 to 5 expectation.

I can see that had we stuck with this UHF only system in the UK that I would have been one of the first to use the Channel renumbering options provided in TivoWeb.

As to always watching live tv I personally watch quite a bit of 24 hour news channel coverage and I never find recording those makes any sense at all.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> A function clearly of us having a structured heavily government controlled nationwide television network compared to the US regional one with completely different channels in different areas. Also the fact that for so many years we had so many fewer channels nationally in the US of A and of course the fact that the names of all our five analogue channels apart from ITV 1 (nee ITV) comply with this orderly channels 1 to 5 expectation.


Well strictly speaking only two of the five stick to the convention. The other two just happen to have numbers in them that match!



> I can see that had we stuck with this UHF only system in the UK that I would have been one of the first to use the Channel renumbering options provided in TivoWeb.


I think most people use the Live TV guide to choose channels rather than typing numbers, or even just use channel up/down. It's not a big deal.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> Whereas UHF channel numbers are a bizarre device being neither the friendly number which the channel transmitted is known by on the channel display on the tv to the end user, nor the UHF frequency in Mhz.


The UHF channel system is not "bizarre", or "arbitrary"- its actually a very good convenient way of splitting it up and avoiding users having to remember "bizarre" frequencies:

How many people remember 65 is Channel 4, much easier to remember than 826Mhz ! 
Knowing the 5 channels are 48,52,55,62,65 in my area saved many hours over the years...

IIRC the formula is 306Mhz + (channel number * 8Mhz)
8Mhz being the amount needed for an analogue TV channel (but you *never* need to know that!  )

These days I don't even know (or need to know) the numbers of the sky channels I watch... it's just "discovery", or "scifi" to me.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

mikerr said:


> How many people remember 65 is Channel 4, much easier to remember than 826Mhz !
> Knowing the 5 channels are 48,52,55,62,65 in my area saved many hours over the years...


Same here....until I came to tune my daughters TV.

2 methods of tuning - Search or direct entry of FREQUENCY !!!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

katman said:


> Same here....until I came to tune my daughters TV.
> 
> 2 methods of tuning - Search or direct entry of FREQUENCY !!!


My late 1997 vintage Philips 100hz television also only allows you to tune in the channels via full auto search, manual up/down search or direct entry of the frequency in Mhz. Nowhere is the Channel number displayed. But bizarrely my 1998 Philips OnDigital box only tunes channels and displays signal strength by channel number with not a Mhz in sight. Strange that a single manufacturer can be so oddly inconsistent in these things.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Strange that a single manufacturer can be so oddly inconsistent in these things.


There seem to be some bizarre decisions made as to methods of control. One of the biggest gripes with TV's and other AV equipment is the lack of discrete commands for Power ON and Power OFF. Normally the Power button just toggles the state of the power. That is fine if you are looking at the piece of equipment but a nightmare if you are trying to automate anything.

Most of my TVs have a power toggle, but two of the portables only have Power OFF. The only way to turn the sets on is to press a number on the keypad.

I was once trying to remote control a projector via the RS232 port and it was a distinctly unpleasant experience. It had the commands....

"LAMP" which was effectively power and toggled between ON and OFF
"MUTE" which was audio mute and toggled
"CURTAIN" which was video mute and toggled the blue screen

... so without knowing the current state, issuing a command had unpredictable results. The projector went away for an upgrade and after returning had an enhanced command set. LAMP, MUTE and CURTAIN were still there as before but they had added "MUTE 0", "MUTE 1", "CURTAIN 0" and "CURTAIN 1". The "0" commands forcing that option OFF and the "1" commands forcing it on.

The one command that REALLY needed that enhancement was LAMP so that the projector could be forcibly turned OFF or ON.

I'm sure I read somewhere that one of the manufacturers (I think it was Sony) had removed the ability to "map" AV inputs to preset numbers so that you could have 1,2,3,4,5 for BBC1 to Five and then set up 6 as AV1, 7 as AV2, 8 as AV3S etc.

GGGRRRRRRRR !!!!!


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