# Can't transfer copy protected shows?



## abovethesink (Aug 26, 2013)

I am surprised to find that I can't offload copy protected shows from my Roamio to my new Premiere. Is there a work around or no?


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

Only Series 3 and earlier can be hacked to get around that.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

That is what copy protected means. Streaming is ok, copying is not.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Yeah, it's always been that way.. and isn't it true that even the hack can only work for shows you record _in the future_, not ones already on the drive? Not like it really affects me.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mattack said:


> Yeah, it's always been that way.. and isn't it true that even the hack can only work for shows you record _in the future_, not ones already on the drive? Not like it really affects me.


That is true. A hacked S3 can only strip the copy protection from new recordings. Any you've already recorded will be stuck with the protection.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

jrtroo said:


> That is what copy protected means. Streaming is ok, copying is not.


It also means (with TiVo) that you can only stream inside the home and not out of home. Which is annoying and ridiculous and unnecessary.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

You could set up a wishlist search on the premiere to record those shows again. Chances are they will be repeated.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Fofer said:


> It also means (with TiVo) that you can only stream inside the home and not out of home. Which is annoying and ridiculous and unnecessary.


Yeah, and the really dumb thing about transfers is that they could've deleted the show from the originating DVR as a condition of completing the transfer to the new DVR, thereby maintaining copy-once. But Tivo has always bent over to their content overlords at the expense of their retail customers.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yeah, and the really dumb thing about transfers is that they could've deleted the show from the originating DVR as a condition of completing the transfer to the new DVR, thereby maintaining copy-once. But Tivo has always bent over to their content overlords at the expense of their retail customers.


Yes, you are right and after spending more money yet again on new TiVo gear this makes me a little upset. It bothers me when such great potential of awesome tech is squashed by such silly, paranoid concerns. Because the fact of the matter is, all this does is encourage users to download the content (with commercials excised already) from (cough) other sources.

In the end I may just bite the bullet and get a SlingPlayer after all. It's relatively inexpensive and would allow me watch any/all my recordings anywhere I want, even on a FireTV or my rooted Android tablet without any of this abject silliness. No, it's not as elegant and integrated as the TiVo app would be, but at least it freaking works.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

It's too bad we can't root our TiVos and install custom software like we can on our Android/Linux phones.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yeah, and the really dumb thing about transfers is that they could've deleted the show from the originating DVR as a condition of completing the transfer to the new DVR, thereby maintaining copy-once. But Tivo has always bent over to their content overlords at the expense of their retail customers.


Sorry no, that could meet the protection requirement only for TiVo-TiVo transfers. If you transfer it to a PC, how to you prevent further copying?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> Sorry no, that could meet the protection requirement only for TiVo-TiVo transfers. If you transfer it to a PC, how to you prevent further copying?


In that case they should honor the right to stream anywhere, in and out of house, regardless. My hunch is that this in particular wasn't a demand from the content overlords. It's just that the TiVo box isn't smart enough to adaptively transcode or not for streaming (based on whether the user is out of the house or not,) and that's... ridiculous.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Fofer said:


> In the end I may just bite the bullet and get a SlingPlayer after all. It's relatively inexpensive and would allow me watch any/all my recordings anywhere I want, even on a FireTV or my rooted Android tablet without any of this abject silliness. No, it's not as elegant and integrated as the TiVo app would be, but at least it freaking works.


But you will only be able to do that with composite or component connections, and possibly (???) will need a Macrovision stripper anyway..

i.e. the HDMI connection will respect HDCP AFAIK, so you won't be able to stream HBO content via them... right?

I sure thought others have said you still needed to use the analog hole with Sling Players.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Fofer said:


> In that case they should honor the right to stream anywhere, in and out of house, regardless. My hunch is that this in particular wasn't a demand from the content overlords. It's just that the TiVo box isn't smart enough to adaptively transcode or not for streaming (based on whether the user is out of the house or not,) and that's... ridiculous.


What do you mean by "adaptively transcode"?

Besides, that is a different issue. Does anyone know what TiVo's rationale is for preventing OOH streaming of copy protected material?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

mattack said:


> But you will only be able to do that with composite or component connections, and possibly (???) will need a Macrovision stripper anyway..
> 
> i.e. the HDMI connection will respect HDCP AFAIK, so you won't be able to stream HBO content via them... right?
> 
> I sure thought others have said you still needed to use the analog hole with Sling Players.


Yeah, so? That's one of the reasons I specifically chose to buy a Roamio Plus. It's got both HDMI and component outputs.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mattack said:


> But you will only be able to do that with composite or component connections, and possibly (???) will need a Macrovision stripper anyway..
> 
> i.e. the HDMI connection will respect HDCP AFAIK, so you won't be able to stream HBO content via them... right?
> 
> I sure thought others have said you still needed to use the analog hole with Sling Players.





Fofer said:


> Yeah, so? That's one of the reasons I specifically chose to buy a Roamio Plus. It's got both HDMI and component outputs.


That's why I hooked up my Slingbox to a Mini. The Mini also has HDMI and component outputs.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> What do you mean by "adaptively transcode"?


It could mean something as simple as : transcode when it has to (upstream is slow and user is out-of-home on a slow remote connection) and DON'T transcode when it doesn't have to (user is on the same LAN and throughput between devices is fast.)

The dreamer in me thinks it could also mean, "transcode to lower PQ when the user is on a really, really slow connection" (I believe SlingPlayer does this) but this is TiVo we're talking about, so we probably won't see something like that until 2018, if ever.



lpwcomp said:


> Besides, that is a different issue. Does anyone know what TiVo's rationale is for preventing OOH streaming of copy protected material?


Well, that's what I'm asking. At first the thought was TiVo was bending over by request (or in pre-emptive, paranoid fear) of the content overlords.

But now I'm thinking they just didn't code the kit to be smart enough. As innocentfreak surmised elsewhere:



innocentfreak said:


> My guess is on the local network it uses MRS with no transcoding even to the app. On another network or with wifi it automatically switches over the transcoding chip which blocks it.


If that's then case, that's really stupid. The transcoding chip shouldn't block it. It should be used specifically for this. Because I'm far more likely to want to stream to my tablet when I'm away from home. When I'm home, I have actual TV's to use.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Fofer said:


> Well, that's what I'm asking. At first the thought was TiVo was bending over by request (or in pre-emptive, paranoid fear) of the content overlords.
> 
> But now I'm thinking they just didn't code the kit to be smart enough. As innocentfreak surmised elsewhere:


Nether you nor innocentfreak make any sense. What the heck does transcoding have to do with preventing only copy protected material from being streamed OOH?



Fofer said:


> If that's then case, that's really stupid. The transcoding chip shouldn't block it. It should be used specifically for this. Because I'm far more likely to want to stream to my tablet when I'm away from home. When I'm home, I have actual TV's to use.


I doubt very seriously that the transcoding chip even knows whether or not the material is copy protected.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> Nether you nor innocentfreak make any sense. What the heck does transcoding have to do with preventing only copy protected material from being streamed OOH?


It's a possible explanation. OOH streaming requires transcoding, in-home streaming does not. This explanation makes more sense to me than any other, because other boxes (DTV and Dish, notably) do allow OOH streaming of copyrighted content. Only TiVo is (once again) the lone standout.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Fofer said:


> It's a possible explanation. OOH streaming requires transcoding, in-home streaming does not. This explanation makes more sense to me than any other, because other boxes (DTV and Dish, notably) do allow OOH streaming of copyrighted content. Only TiVo is (once again) the lone standout.


Why do you believe that in home streaming to a pad or phone doesn't require transcoding? If that were the case, you wouldn't need a stream to do it.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Because I can stream (well, play in real time while it downloads, with no delay) from a Series 3 using the TiVoToGo plugin for Plex Media Server, no TiVo Stream (or transcoding) required.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Fofer said:


> Because I can stream (well, play in real time while it downloads, with no delay) from a Series 3 using the TiVoToGo plugin for Plex Media Server, no TiVo Stream (or transcoding) required.


It is transcoding. Plex is doing the transcoding instead of the stream or other software. iPads do not play mpeg2 content.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Fofer said:


> It's a possible explanation. OOH streaming requires transcoding, in-home streaming does not. This explanation makes more sense to me than any other, because other boxes (*DTV and Dish,* notably) do allow OOH streaming of copyrighted content. Only TiVo is (once again) the lone standout.


Neither DTV or Dish needed to deal with Cablelabs for certification.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

jcthorne said:


> It is transcoding. Plex is doing the transcoding instead of the stream or other software. iPads do not play mpeg2 content.


FWIW, this is playing on my Mac, not my iPad.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> Sorry no, that could meet the protection requirement only for TiVo-TiVo transfers. If you transfer it to a PC, how to you prevent further copying?


Of course, I meant Tivo to Tivo (i.e., DVRs). I didn't say anything about PCs and you can't copy protected shows there anyway. This was specifically about transferring a protected show from one Tivo to another when you do an upgrade.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Of course, I meant Tivo to Tivo (i.e., DVRs). I didn't say anything about PCs and you can't copy protected shows there anyway. This was specifically about transferring a protected show from one Tivo to another when you do an upgrade.


Since the context was a discussion about OOH streaming, how exactly was I supposed to know this?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Because I said transfers, and that's what the OP is complaining about? Go back and read.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Because I said transfers? Go back and read.


You are correct, you did. However, it was silly to quote a post that was specifically about OOH streaming to make a point about TiVo-TiVo transfers.

3 additional things:

1. Do you actually know that your method would have satisfied Cablelabs?

2. Can you imagine the screams of rage when a recording gets permanently deleted and it turns out there was a problem with the transfer?

3. While I realize that keeping it on the TiVo is the only option for copy protected material and people who suffer under TWC are particularly affected, a TiVo was not designed to be a long term storage device.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

So let's go back to the original question. Why can we stream protected content in the home but not out of the home? Because CableLabs says so?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Fofer said:


> So let's go back to the original question. Why can we stream protected content in the home but not out of the home? Because CableLabs says so?


Not to nit-pick or anything, but that's _*not*_ the original question, and anyway the only answer I have is "dunno". There might be some other law/regulation at work preventing the transmission of copy protected material outside the local network.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Fofer said:


> It also means (with TiVo) that you can only stream inside the home and not out of home. Which is annoying and ridiculous and unnecessary.


You can if you set up VPN capability

I have a cabin. I have set up my cabin with a cable modem, but the router VPN's directly into my Homes VPN server. Thus creating a VPN connection giving the TiVo at my cabin an IP address on my home network and subnet.

Multi room Tivo streaming is adequate.

Another alternative is a sling box pro, with HDMI splitter that removes the HDCP. This will allow you to stream content on your TiVo including copy protected content to a Roku, and or to iOS devices as well as some android devices and your laptop.

Tgc

P.s. Yes I know these aren't the ideal solutions, but they are workarounds.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> I doubt very seriously that the transcoding chip even knows whether or not the material is copy protected.


Why? It seems fairly obvious to me that it _must_ take that into consideration, per CableLabs certification.



lpwcomp said:


> Not to nit-pick or anything, but that's _*not*_ the original question, and anyway the only answer I have is "dunno". There might be some other law/regulation at work preventing the transmission of copy protected material outside the local network.


It's possible it's a simpler answer than that. The transcoding could be blocked by the "copy once" flag since you're _not allowed to alter_ a "copy once" recording. I've also read that on Media Center, for example, you can't do anything with "copy once" content except play it back on the local PC, or via an extender.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> That's why I hooked up my Slingbox to a Mini. The Mini also has HDMI and component outputs.


Just to clarify, the Mini has component outputs by way of an optional AV breakout cable kit you have to buy seperately.



TexasGrillChef said:


> You can if you set up VPN capability
> 
> I have a cabin. I have set up my cabin with a cable modem, but the router VPN's directly into my Homes VPN server. Thus creating a VPN connection giving the TiVo at my cabin an IP address on my home network and subnet.
> 
> Multi room Tivo streaming is adequate.


Interesting, I may have to play around with that. I previously tried VPN software, to allow my Mac or iPad to connect remotely (not only for TiVo but for Time Warner's live TV app too) but it never quite worked right or was too unreliable to enjoy. It's good to know that a hardware VPN link would allow a remote Mini to work in this way. Thanks for sharing!

Of course, my bigger issue is TWC's aggressive CCI byte setting, which restricts any of my non-local recordings, rendering the whole streaming remotely feature fairly useless. Hence my new interest in a Slingbox.



TexasGrillChef said:


> Another alternative is a sling box pro, with HDMI splitter that removes the HDCP. This will allow you to stream content on your TiVo including copy protected content to a Roku, and or to iOS devices as well as some android devices and your laptop.


A Slingbox that uses component output would work just as well, right? Since component cables have no HDCP. You'd just need to use a Roamio Plus or Pro that has built-in component output, or a Roamio Basic along with an HDMI to component converter.

I'm looking seriously at the new Slingbox M1. Another benefit is that this is the only box that's gotten compatibility with a new release of desktop streaming client software, as opposed to the web app at Slingbox.com.

Amazon's FireTV (and Stick) now have a free SlingPlayer client too, making that handy accessory to travel with.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Fofer said:


> Why? It seems fairly obvious to me that it _must_ take that into consideration, per CableLabs certification.


Patent nonsense. The transcoding processor has no idea where the data is going. It's sole function is to transcode from one format to another.



Fofer said:


> It's possible it's a simpler answer than that. The transcoding could be blocked by the "copy once" flag since you're _not allowed to alter_ a "copy once" recording. I've also read that on Media Center, for example, you can't do anything with "copy once" content except play it back on the local PC, or via an extender.


The "simple answer" is that OOH streaming of copy protected material is being prevented by the same thing that prevents it from being transferred - the TiVo s/w. The data is never even sent to the stream.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> Patent nonsense. The transcoding processor has no idea where the data is going. It's sole function is to transcode from one format to another.


You don't know that for sure anymore than I do. It could very well be adhering to the CCI flag's restrictions, like all TiVo hardware does.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Fofer said:


> You don't know that for sure anymore than I do. It could very well be adhering to the CCI flag's restrictions, like all TiVo hardware does.


 It's not the TiVo h/w that enforces the CCI flag restrictions, it's the s/w.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> It's not the TiVo h/w that enforces the CCI flag restrictions, it's the s/w.


Fair enough, the software still controls the streaming hardware, and TiVo's approach isn't allowing copy-protected content to be transcoded for streaming outside the home. End result is the same.

 yourself. Chill out, there's no need to make this a rude argument.

I'm certain you aren't a TiVo engineer or CableLabs exec and don't have the actual explanation on this anyway, so all EITHER of us is doing, is guessing.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Fofer said:


> Fair enough, the software still controls the streaming hardware, and TiVo's approach isn't allowing copy-protected content to be transcoded for streaming outside the home. End result is the same.
> 
> yourself. Chill out, there's no need to make this a rude argument.
> 
> I'm certain you aren't a TiVo engineer or CableLabs exec and don't have the actual explanation on this anyway, so all EITHER of us is doing, is guessing.


There should be at least some logical basis for speculation. Yours has zero. I'm not "guessing", I'm making a logical assumption based on the available evidence. You don't have to be a planetologist to know that the moon isn't made of green cheese.

We actually don't even know that this is even based on a Cablelabs requirement or if there is something else at work.

No, I am neither a TiVo (or any other DVR) engineer nor do I have any association with CableLabs. What I _*am*_ is a computer programmer with over 41 years of experience, 17 of which was spent as an O/S analyst. What is *your* background that gives you a basis for speculation?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I'm an intelligent human whose made a career for himself in I.T. and who knows arguing on the Internet with rude strangers is a waste of time. Have fun with your opinion. You may be right and you may be wrong, but you're certainly not worth the energy to engage with further.

/plonk


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Fofer said:


> I'm an intelligent human whose made a career for himself in I.T. and who knows arguing on the Internet with rude strangers is a waste of time. Have fun with your opinion. You may be right and you may be wrong, but you're certainly not worth the energy to engage with further.
> 
> /plonk


I'm sorry if you think I've been "rude", I just have little tolerance for ridiculous speculation that has no logical basis.


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