# Tivo charging previous owners for charges new owners inccur such as warranty - scary



## semaj3000 (May 8, 2010)

Looks like tivo can charge previous owners when a new owner bills.

I sold my two previous tivo's and upgraded to the latest and greatest premiere series. Now when the previous tivo's get a charge such as a warranty upgrade, my card has been charged, TWICE. They cannot change the credit card on file unless the new owner calls in and changes it EVEN THOUGH IT IS MY CARD. This is a scary thing to rely on the person that purchased the tivo to be able to be contacted and to assure they take care of the credit card on file. Tivo said everything was transferred but obviously the csr don't have enough information in front of them to be well enough informed.

Still scary that someone else can charge things to your credit card and you cannot do anything to stop it.


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## johndix (Feb 8, 2007)

semaj3000 said:


> Looks like tivo can charge previous owners when a new owner bills.
> .........
> 
> Still scary that someone else can charge things to your credit card and you cannot do anything to stop it.


Simply tell your credit card Company not to accept charges from TIVO.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

johndix said:


> Simply tell your credit card Company not to accept charges from TIVO.


But that would also block the monthly subscription charges for his TiVo Premiere (causing him to lose service).

(Unless he'd bought lifetime service...)


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## johndix (Feb 8, 2007)

Jonathan_S said:


> But that would also block the monthly subscription charges for his TiVo Premiere (causing him to lose service).
> 
> (Unless he'd bought lifetime service...)


Or changed to a different card.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Is this a situation where the new owner has failed to transfer the Tivos to his own account?
If this is the case and they are still on your account, call Tivo and tell them to cancel service on those two units.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

semaj3000 said:


> Looks like tivo can charge previous owners when a new owner bills.
> 
> I sold my two previous tivo's and upgraded to the latest and greatest premiere series. Now when the previous tivo's get a charge such as a warranty upgrade, my card has been charged, TWICE. They cannot change the credit card on file unless the new owner calls in and changes it EVEN THOUGH IT IS MY CARD. This is a scary thing to rely on the person that purchased the tivo to be able to be contacted and to assure they take care of the credit card on file. Tivo said everything was transferred but obviously the csr don't have enough information in front of them to be well enough informed.
> 
> Still scary that someone else can charge things to your credit card and you cannot do anything to stop it.


This did happen to me once, TiVo quickly gave me credit when the CSR saw that the name on the credit card (my name) was not the name on the TiVo account when the warranty order was placed. The CSR said TiVo was going to fix this problem by requiring a full credit card entry for each additional service ordered at another time. From what you just reported TiVo did not yet do this as my problem was near the end on 2009.


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## jmill (Feb 22, 2010)

Happened to me as well.

I sold my TiVo with Lifetime and new owner purchased the Extended Warranty, which is perfectly normal. And as in the case with original poster, TiVo charged my card instead of his, wtf? Took me a number of phone calls and almost two weeks to sort it out.

How is it difficult to ask customer and verify to ensure billing information matches the account?


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

jmill said:


> Happened to me as well.
> 
> I sold my TiVo with Lifetime and new owner purchased the Extended Warranty, which is perfectly normal. And as in the case with original poster, TiVo charged my card instead of his, wtf? Took me a number of phone calls and almost two weeks to sort it out.
> 
> How is it difficult to ask customer and verify to ensure billing information matches the account?


I think they are willfully neglecting to fix this simple problem because of the revenue it generates from those that don't check their statements. I try to never give any company my credit card that might possibly use it for repetitive/automatic billing. It is sad when "accidentally" charging the wrong party for service becomes a business strategy.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

parzec said:


> I think they are willfully neglecting to fix this simple problem because of the revenue it generates from those that don't check their statements. I try to never give any company my credit card that might possibly use it for repetitive/automatic billing. It is sad when "accidentally" charging the wrong party for service becomes a business strategy.


Paranoid?
Whether they charge the previous owner's cc or the new owner, the amount is the same.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

scandia101 said:


> Paranoid?
> Whether they charge the previous owner's cc or the new owner, the amount is the same.


Unless they charge BOTH!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

parzec said:


> I think they are willfully neglecting to fix this simple problem because of the revenue it generates from those that don't check their statements.


wow, so you know little about legal matters or changing the design of computer systems


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## tcfcameron (Aug 4, 2010)

Post retracted due to NDA and other contractual obligations.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tcfcameron said:


> :down::down::down:


really? So the explicit statement that TiVo would knowingly charge other people for services by others in an illegal manner gets no reaction from you but you boo the guy that calls BS on such a nonsense statement.


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## tcfcameron (Aug 4, 2010)

Post retracted due to NDA and other contractual obligations.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

tcfcameron said:


> :down::down::down: to flame-baiting.


Pot, meet kettle.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

allan said:


> Unless they charge BOTH!


Come on you really think TiVo gets two charges and then has hope the 2nd person does not notice, I don't think TiVo would do an illegal act to get a few extra $39 charges. In my case TiVo never got paid by the new owner as the CSR said it was too much trouble to go after him for the $39. The fix is easy, each *new* order requires the entry of a credit card, period.


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## wp746911 (Feb 19, 2005)

if you think tivo charges this way by design, hoping to illegally sneak in extra charges, then I'll send you an metal cap to block the ufo mind reading devices.

Doesn't mean this isn't the product of poor design, but I find it very very had to believe tivo would actively plan on illegaly charging peoples cards. Poor planning and design, yes. Illegal scheming, no.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> wow, so you know little about legal matters or changing the design of computer systems


hmmm -- JD in Law and BS in Computer Science. Do you really think it is that difficult to change the software to clear all the personal information fields when a unit is transferred to a new owner? Now I might agree if you stated that it would be difficult for *Tivo* programmers given the state of the Premier software, but to qualified programmers, the solution is obvious and easy to implement.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> really? So the explicit statement that TiVo would knowingly charge other people for services by others in an illegal manner gets no reaction from you but you boo the guy that calls BS on such a nonsense statement.


My point was that Tivo has been on notice regarding this problem for some time -- another poster in this thread stated it was last year that he brought it to their attention. There have been other reports on this site about continuing billing by Tivo for Tivo service after a transfer of ownership -- yet Tivo continues with the practice without making the fix, so it appears to be "business as usual." It seems reasonable to conclude that TiVo is abusing the privilege of having credit card information on file but they can always fix the problem to avoid the appearance of impropriety.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

wp746911 said:


> if you think tivo charges this way by design, hoping to illegally sneak in extra charges, then I'll send you an metal cap to block the ufo mind reading devices.
> 
> Doesn't mean this isn't the product of poor design, but I find it very very had to believe tivo would actively plan on illegaly charging peoples cards. Poor planning and design, yes. Illegal scheming, no.


But a company cannot indefinitely rely on the "bad design" excuse to continue an unethical/illegal billing practice once the flaw is brought to their attention. An unintentional mistake in billing rises to the level of an intentional act if they allow it to continue once they have knowledge of the problem. I just want Tivo to clean up its act and behave like a reputable company, instead of sinking to the level of the scum that use repetitive/automatic billing to perpetuate income streams.


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## wp746911 (Feb 19, 2005)

parzec said:


> But a company cannot indefinitely rely on the "bad design" excuse to continue an unethical/illegal billing practice once the flaw is brought to their attention. An unintentional mistake in billing rises to the level of an intentional act if they allow it to continue once they have knowledge of the problem. I just want Tivo to clean up its act and behave like a reputable company, instead of sinking to the level of the scum that use repetitive/automatic billing to perpetuate income streams.


I agree with you- at some point their mistake by ignorance crosses into the unethical realm- and if they have known about this for a year they are pushing their luck. My only defense for tivo is claiming extraordinary ignorance (can't update the SD menus in the premiere)


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

wp746911 said:


> I agree with you- at some point their mistake by ignorance crosses into the unethical realm- and if they have known about this for a year they are pushing their luck. My only defense for tivo is claiming extraordinary ignorance (can't update the SD menus in the premiere)


:up::up::up:


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

parzec said:


> hmmm -- JD in Law and BS in Computer Science. Do you really think it is that difficult to change the software to clear all the personal information fields when a unit is transferred to a new owner? Now I might agree if you stated that it would be difficult for *Tivo* programmers given the state of the Premier software, but to qualified programmers, the solution is obvious and easy to implement.


with a BS in Computer Science you surely do not think they have the same programmers working on the premiere as on their billing system, do you?

Also this is a billing system - customer facing - you just do not go into production and patch up the pages for ordering new services. You design the change, vet that design for possible new issues being caused, build it, test it, fix anything that testing brings up and then put that into production. You may have seen DMAIC on one of your tests.

Now this is both a poor customer interaction for two customers and TiVo inc. loses money and faces legal risks - so why this is not a top priority to go through the process of being fixed, I do not know, it may even be in the Improve phase of DMAIC for all I know. Still it is obviously illegal to knowingly charge some other credit card and while the solution may be apparent it is best to not rush to production for stability reasons


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

parzec said:


> instead of sinking to the level of the scum that use repetitive/automatic billing to perpetuate income streams.


see there you go again - I simply call BS on your biased judgment as if you know the internal workings of TiVo


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

TiVo's billing department is completely FUBAR. They've had issues before with either refusing to work with customers, or having systems so rigid they can't adjust them. For instance. To this day TiVo cannot change your billing date, neither can they consolidate your bill so you get only one draft per month. When asked they say the only way to do it (for the single billing date) is to cancel your sub and reactivate all your devices on the same day. Really TiVo? :down::down::down:


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> TiVo's billing department is completely FUBAR. They've had issues before with either refusing to work with customers, or having systems so rigid they can't adjust them. For instance. To this day TiVo cannot change your billing date, neither can they consolidate your bill so you get only one draft per month. When asked they say the only way to do it (for the single billing date) is to cancel your sub and reactivate all your devices on the same day. Really TiVo? :down::down::down:


That a much different problem as charging the incorrect credit card for a service, all TiVo has to do is require a credit card entry for each new order. Newegg.com has my CC on file BUT I still have to enter my CC code (3 or 4 digits) before the order will go into their system. Most CC you pay once a month so I don't care if any one Co. makes 10 legitimate charges in that month as I still only make one payment (may be different for debt cards).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> TiVo's billing department is completely FUBAR. They've had issues before with either refusing to work with customers, or having systems so rigid they can't adjust them.


I suspect they bought from a 3rd party and have no good way to make or get updates to what they bought. It has resulted in a high cost from bad customer interactions that typically get overlooked at buy or build decision time


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> see there you go again - I simply call BS on your biased judgment as if you know the internal workings of TiVo


I call BS on his JD in Law and BS in Computer Science.


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## FishersMike (Sep 20, 2010)

Stormspace said:


> TiVo's billing department is completely FUBAR. They've had issues before with either refusing to work with customers, or having systems so rigid they can't adjust them. For instance. To this day TiVo cannot change your billing date, neither can they consolidate your bill so you get only one draft per month. When asked they say the only way to do it (for the single billing date) is to cancel your sub and reactivate all your devices on the same day. Really TiVo? :down::down::down:


One thing they can do believe it or not, when I called them to cancel (or suspend) service because I thought I was going to be laid off from my company due to an acquisition, I decided to give up some of my extras. They gave me 3 or 4 months of free service on all my TiVo units (and I have like 5 subs) without me even asking.... something I could not see any other company doing. I did not get laid off I was luckily able to find a promotion within the company, so I called them back (to do the honest thing) and they said they appreciate the honesty but they would leave the credit on my account. Any company that would do this I would say would not intentionally try to double-dip credit card charges intentionally and commit fraud. Just my 2 cents.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

FishersMike said:


> One thing they can do believe it or not, when I called them to cancel (or suspend) service because I thought I was going to be laid off from my company due to an acquisition, I decided to give up some of my extras. They gave me 3 or 4 months of free service on all my TiVo units (and I have like 5 subs) without me even asking.... something I could not see any other company doing. I did not get laid off I was luckily able to find a promotion within the company, so I called them back (to do the honest thing) and they said they appreciate the honesty but they would leave the credit on my account. Any company that would do this I would say would not intentionally try to double-dip credit card charges intentionally and commit fraud. Just my 2 cents.


Nobody has any evidence that TiVo is double dipping, just charging the incorrect CC, the new TiVo owner just clicks on the warranty upgrade (if available) and is never asked for his CC as TiVo uses the card that came with the TiVo, so if you sold the TiVo with Lifetime Service, that TiVo had the original owners CC and it was automatically used, I guess the new owner could have called TiVo and asked why he was never asked or charged for the extended warranty, but most people would not think to do that. It also may be a single click on the link just gives you the warranty, no questions asked about who pays just asks you if you want 2 or 3 years.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

JTYoung1 said:


> I call BS on his JD in Law and BS in Computer Science.


I suppose the *T* in you screen name stands for Toady? ...... 

Really, though, you shouldn't take things so personally when I make an assertion about Tivo that you feel it necessary to respond with a personal attack. These are just opinions about the inner operations of Tivo, as Zeo correctly points out, and no one knows if they are actually right.

So just relax, take a deep breath, and try to add something useful to the discussion. Thanks.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

parzec said:


> when I make an assertion about Tivo that you feel it necessary to respond with a personal attack. These are just opinions about the inner operations of Tivo, as Zeo correctly points out, and no one knows if they are actually right.


Here we find some common ground to agree on. 
I always try and speak to the content of the post as the best way to further the thread though I sometimes do hit the gray area of personal comments.


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## tcfcameron (Aug 4, 2010)

Post retracted due to NDA and other contractual obligations.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tcfcameron said:


> I'm symbiotic with the thread at this point too. :up::up::up:
> 
> I just wonder if you realize how many shades of gray there are.


only Chuck Norris knows how many shades of gray there are


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Tivo should verify the identiy of the owner before charging a credit card..


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## tcfcameron (Aug 4, 2010)

Post retracted due to NDA and other contractual obligations.


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## steinbch (Nov 23, 2007)

Today I just received a phone call from TiVo with the same problem! I had sold a TiVo Premiere with lifetime on it and the new owner (even with a transferred account) had the warranty placed on my card. I'm not sure how TiVo came to be aware of it, but they called to let me know why there was a $39 charge on my card.

The crazy thing is that their initial suggested fix was for me to give them my credit card info and to put onto this other person's account (since it had since been updated to his correct CC) and then issue a credit on *HIS* account. He was then supposed to call back in three days and have them switch the card back to his name. WTF???

I told the CSR that he should just put a credit on my _actual_ account, which he then did. Crazy!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> C'mon Zeo. Is 1 year not enough time to correct this problem?


my discussion is around the statement from another "that it is a simple fix." I then detailed some best practices around such a change to note it is not as simple as just throwing some code into a web page in production.

I also noted that this is a bad customer interaction for 2 different customers, loses TiVo money (as a timely post just prior to mine illustrates  and I assume they have no way to correctly charge the other customer), and the face significant legal risks as well.

So to actually answer your question, yes 1 year is more than enough as this should have been a top priority change to the billing system. We however do not know what internally goes on at TiVo so I have no idea as to why they still have this serious glitch in their system.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> The only excuse I could believe at this time would be the ol' favorite at TiVo:
> 
> _This bug does not effect enough people or the core functionality of the billing system to be worth putting forth ANY resources to find a remedy._


or it is (numbers totally made up of course)
we lose 1000 a month in lost charges
it will cost us 50,000 to fix it but we are planning to upgrade/replace the system in 2 years.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

If it happens enough times and credit card holders instigate enough chargebacks, it will start to affect TiVo. There's no excuse for what I would term pure sloppiness on TiVo's part here.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

I guess fixing this because it's, well, the right thing to do is too old-fashioned an idea to apply any more.....


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

stevel said:


> If it happens enough times and credit card holders instigate enough chargebacks, it will start to affect TiVo. There's no excuse for what I would term pure sloppiness on TiVo's part here.


Unfortunately a few $39 charge-backs are not going to affect TiVo, this problem only can only happen if one sell a Lifetime TiVo within 90 days of the Lifetime activation and the new owner then wants to put on an extended TiVo warranty.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> So we agree!!! TiVo's action(or lack thereof) seems to say it's a problem that is not worth fixing.:up::up::up:


nope - my scenario just showed they may feel it is a problem better fixed by a manual process. I will restate again however that I have no idea what TiVo is thinking about this


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Here we find some common ground to agree on.
> I always try and speak to the content of the post as the best way to further the thread though I sometimes do hit the gray area of personal comments.


Agreed...and I am beginning to believe that Tivo is aware of the problem and doesn't intend to charge the wrong party (evidence by the poster that received a call from Tivo about an erroneous charge to his account) but the cost benefit analysis doesn't justify making the fix. They could be liable for continuing this practice, but realistically, no Attorney General or individual consumer is going to the trouble to take legal action against them for such a small amount of money that is so infrequently erroneously charged. Still, I don't like that way it looks or smells and would like Tivo to prioritize this project. It might help if the FTC sent them a warning letter or if their credit card processing privileges were suspended pending the fix...


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

parzec said:


> Agreed...and I am beginning to believe that Tivo is aware of the problem and doesn't intend to charge the wrong party (evidence by the poster that received a call from Tivo about an erroneous charge to his account) but the cost benefit analysis doesn't justify making the fix. They could be liable for continuing this practice, but realistically, no Attorney General or individual consumer is going to the trouble to take legal action against them for such a small amount of money that is so infrequently erroneously charged. Still, I don't like that way it looks or smells and would like Tivo to prioritize this project. It might help if the FTC sent them a warning letter or if their credit card processing privileges were suspended pending the fix...


Let see do we (TiVo) put are money into the TP to get that to work as we (TiVo) promised or put some of it into fixing the 10 or so $39 incorrectly charged warranties per year, as president of TiVo I make the following decision ____________________ (you on this form fill in the blanks)


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

lessd said:


> Let see do we (TiVo) put are money into the TP to get that to work as we (TiVo) promised or put some of it into fixing the 10 or so $39 incorrectly charged warranties per year, as president of TiVo I make the following decision ____________________ (you on this form fill in the blanks)


Intentional or not there is a word for the appropriation of one's property without his permission. --- theft. And once aware of the problem if it continues then the theft is intentional. I should hope that TiVo's bottom line doesn't rely on even considering the choices above.

I'm not a particularly religious person but I don't believe the 8th commandment (or secular law) says "Thou shalt not steal -- unless it costs you money that you can spend somewhere else not to."


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> I see. We don't agree.
> 
> You are considering waiting until an erroneous charge occurs and correcting it after the fact as "fixed". I have to respectfully disagree.


disagree is fine and if the TiVo billing system was on my plate I would have the system fix sized from a time and dollar perspective and be pushing for the system fix to move forward.
Business looks at the bottom line however and AG adn credoit card companies only look at complaints with actual damages involved. If TiVo does a credit with no questions then the damage is extremely limited if any.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> disagree is fine and if the TiVo billing system was on my plate I would have the system fix sized from a time and dollar perspective and be pushing for the system fix to move forward.
> Business looks at the bottom line however and AG adn credoit card companies only look at complaints with actual damages involved. If TiVo does a credit with no questions then the damage is extremely limited if any.


Which is kind of like saying if I happen to catch a pickpocket who apologizes and puts my wallet back into my pocket with no questions asked and moves on to pick another's pocket no damages are done...


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## jmill (Feb 22, 2010)

RoyK said:


> Which is kind of like saying if I happen to catch a pickpocket who apologizes and puts my wallet back into my pocket with no questions asked and moves on to pick another's pocket no damages are done...


Agree. There is absolutely no excuse for TiVo charging another customer's credit card without their authorization. If there is enough evidence, this is a case for class-action suit.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Which is kind of like saying if I happen to catch a pickpocket who apologizes and puts my wallet back into my pocket with no questions asked and moves on to pick another's pocket no damages are done...


No, and since you can not get the distinction and this billing bug ultimately happens to just a few people and I am not the person responsible in TiVo to deal with it then it is even less important to me to help you understand the critical distinction.

PS - jmill, someone with actual damages would need to start the class action suit and they typically need a large group with actual damages to make it a class action. So good luck with your class action


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> No, and since you can not get the distinction and this billing bug ultimately happens to just a few people and I am not the person responsible in TiVo to deal with it then it is even less important to me to help you understand the critical distinction.
> 
> PS - jmill, someone with actual damages would need to start the class action suit and they typically need a large group with actual damages to make it a class action. So good luck with your class action


I understand that that you are not the person it TiVo responsible for dealing with it. What I don't understand is why you feel that the fact that it "happens to just a few people" is at all relevant.


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## jmill (Feb 22, 2010)

ZeoTiVo said:


> PS - jmill, someone with actual damages would need to start the class action suit and they typically need a large group with actual damages to make it a class action. So good luck with your class action


Actual damages - time wasted sorting this thing out. There are definitely better things to do in life. I quite honestly don't understand why you defend TiVo on this.

The need a qood QA to test their billing system. But I guess they way they test DVRs, is the same way they test their billing system.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

The reflects one of the greatest flaws with corporate capitalism in America -- that ethics are secondary (or tertiary, etc....) to profit. Even though the Supreme Court wants to give them all the rights of the individual (see campaign donations ruling), they are not held to the same standards or penalized as individuals for the crimes they may commit, which tends to make them act like a sociopath. Kafka and Nietzsche were correct, but the "Superman" that believes himself to be above all moral restraint is called "Inc." and definitely not human.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmill said:


> Actual damages - time wasted sorting this thing out. There are definitely better things to do in life. I quite honestly don't understand why you defend TiVo on this.
> 
> The need a qood QA to test their billing system. But I guess they way they test DVRs, is the same way they test their billing system.


this is not a defense of TiVo - this is stating the realities of how things actually work in a corporate setting where the money spent has a business case behind it so the shareholders see due diligence is taken with their investment. and yes, as Parzec points out, this leads to such cases as this where the right corporate thing to do is to let a small problem be corrected after it happens versus a large expenditure to fix it from happening.

I think it very telling that those that want to rag on this, while not directly effected, also throw in a rag on their TiVo DVR as well. Ironic that I am then cast as the one with the agenda.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> this is not a defense of TiVo - this is stating the realities of how things actually work in a corporate setting where the money spent has a business case behind it so the shareholders see due diligence is taken with their investment. and yes, as Parzec points out, this leads to such cases as this where the right corporate thing to do is to let a small problem be corrected after it happens versus a large expenditure to fix it from happening.
> 
> I think it very telling that those that want to rag on this, while not directly effected, also throw in a rag on their TiVo DVR as well. Ironic that I am then cast as the one with the agenda.


Taking money from a person's credit card account without his permission -- even for a short period of time -- is a crime whether it's done directly by a human or by a software program and whether it's done by an individual or a corporation. It is never "the right corporate thing to do"!

And it can be stopped as quickly as one web page can be replaced with another one replacing the on-line ordering procedure with instructions to call TiVo to order the extended warranty.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

RoyK said:


> Taking money from a person's credit card account without his permission -- even for a short period of time -- is a crime whether it's done directly by a human or by a software program and whether it's done by an individual or a corporation. It is never "the right corporate thing to do"!
> 
> And it can be stopped as quickly as one web page can be replaced with another one replacing the on-line ordering procedure with instructions to call TiVo to order the extended warranty.


First of all intent makes a crime, for this so called crime to happen a TiVo owner has to purchase Lifetime Service on his/her TiVo account and then within 90 days xfer it to someone, not a common occurrence, that the new person than has to want to purchase a TiVo extended warranty. I don't think you will find much in intent on TiVo part to commit any crime.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

lessd said:


> First of all intent makes a crime, for this so called crime to happen a TiVo owner has to purchase Lifetime Service on his/her TiVo account and then within 90 days xfer it to someone, not a common occurrence, that the new person than has to want to purchase a TiVo extended warranty. I don't think you will find much in intent on TiVo part to commit any crime.


Once they know it's happening if they continue to let it happen then intent is shown.


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## jmill (Feb 22, 2010)

RoyK said:


> Once they know it's happening if they continue to let it happen then intent is shown.


Now they know. Let's see how soon they can fix it.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

RoyK said:


> Once they know it's happening if they continue to let it happen then intent is shown.


If any lawyers want to chime in they can, but IMHO having a software billing error that creates such a minor error (in only special cases) and does not benefit TiVo in any way (as they don't get paid twice) I doubt any court would think this shows criminal intent to defraud only the people selling TiVos with lifetime service that was put on in the last 90 days.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

lessd said:


> If any lawyers want to chime in they can, but IMHO having a software billing error that creates such a minor error (in only special cases) and does not benefit TiVo in any way (as they don't get paid twice) I doubt any court would think this shows criminal intent to defraud only the people selling TiVos with lifetime service that was put on in the last 90 days.


I don't think any prosecutor would spend the resources to pursue it - which isn't the same thing.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

RoyK said:


> I don't think any prosecutor would spend the resources to pursue it - which isn't the same thing.


It may be enough of the same thing that TiVo will not spend the money to fix the problem, and not suffer any prosecution for not fixing it.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Where's Turtleboy?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

lessd said:


> It may be enough of the same thing that TiVo will not spend the money to fix the problem, and not suffer any prosecution for not fixing it.


Sorry you don't see the difference.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

RoyK said:


> Sorry you don't see the difference.


I do see the difference i am just guessing as to why TiVo has not fixed this problem over the last year or so, do i think TiVo should fix this problem?? *YES* but as I said TiVo will not suffer much if they don't fix it.


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## tcfcameron (Aug 4, 2010)

Even though this thread is pretty dead, wouldn't simply requiring re-entry of the 3-digit code on the back of credit/debit card, for anything that results in a charge, be sufficient (excluding recurring monthly charges)?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tcfcameron said:


> Even though this thread is pretty dead, wouldn't simply requiring re-entry of the 3-digit code on the back of credit/debit card, for anything that results in a charge, be sufficient (excluding recurring monthly charges)?


Forget the 3 or 4 digit code, just ask for the credit card number in the first place for any new order including the extended warranty, the people doing this would pay if asked. The credit card should never be attached to any Lifetime Service TiVo after payment is made and never used for new orders.


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