# Battlestar Galactica S2E11 "Resurrection Ship"



## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

What the hell....I'll start it now!

Any predictions?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

...uh....glowing Cylon spine?


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> ...uh....glowing Cylon spine?


A big, space dog fight? Or will it be called off?


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

I predict a thread will be made 6 hours early for this episode.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

A Leoben on Pegasus takes out Ro?


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## Malibyte (Jun 12, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> ...uh....glowing Cylon spine?


Love that glowing spine...both on Six and Sharon. More spine, please.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

I think a Cylon attack will happen 2 min. into the fight.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

5thcrewman said:


> A Leoben on Pegasus takes out Ro?


A lesbian on Pegasus takes out....ooops...sorry...misread that - not that there's anything wrong with it


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I think a Cylon attack will happen 2 min. into the fight.


I think it will happen just before the fight.

J


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Is this today???

I hadn't been keeping up...


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Holy Frack! The president is ruthless! I can't believe she just suggested that!

J


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Wow! What a cliffhanger for next week! This is even bigger than the cliffhanger for the break!

J


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## Lord_Skywalker (Oct 22, 2005)

This show just keeps getting better and better. Can't wait until next week.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

Kill the *****! Let God sort em out.


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## xtopher_66 (Jan 8, 2004)

Wow. Great setup for what should be an excellent episode next week.

I see the episode commentary is available on ITunes.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Fracking excellent episode.
totally didn't expect the president to take that tact.
Why can't she just demote/discharge Cain?
I've never really understood the whole military/colonial govt. situation. Seems to me as President she should have SOME control over the military.


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## jstr (Sep 25, 2005)

jwjody said:


> Wow! What a cliffhanger for next week! This is even bigger than the cliffhanger for the break!
> 
> J


yeah, great episode and I can't wait until next week. Let's see who is more loyal - Starbuck or the Pegasus executice Officer - they basically have the same orders to kill the commander of the rival battlestar.

I think Starbuck would do it because she is very loyal to Adama, but I don't know about the Pegasus Exec Officer - he seemed very disturbed about the fact that his commander had ordered the civilian ships to be stripped and the families of the resisters to be killed. I think he may turn on his commander and not go through with it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Gunnyman said:


> Fracking excellent episode.
> totally didn't expect the president to take that tact.
> Why can't she just demote/discharge Cain?
> I've never really understood the whole military/colonial govt. situation. Seems to me as President she should have SOME control over the military.


Not according to the deal by which Adama allowed her to be President.

He has absolute control over military affairs. She has absolute control over civilian affairs. (That's why the civil war in the first half of the season was instigated by Roslyn, not Adama, when she violated the agreement and took control of important military assets against Adama's will.) He abdicated his role to Caine, but Roslyn is smart enough to know exactly what kind of bullet to the back of the head she'd take if she tried to renegotiate the deal with Caine.


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## jstr (Sep 25, 2005)

Here's something interesting that was posted on the Sci Fi board:

"Plan Orange was the US' plan for war with Japan, and Operation Downfall was the planned invasion of Japan that never happened because they surrendered."


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

I think its gonna be a couple of eps before we see how the plan(s) go...or maybe not. I don't watch the previews!


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## Spiff (Mar 1, 2004)

MAN, I missed this show. I was completely glued to it from start to finish, something that hasn't happened for months.

I can't wait to see how the next episode goes.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

I love when Roslyn sat down with them and said something like there's no doubt Pegasus would win and Adama sneaks in, "Don't bet on it."

J


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

What kind of useless spines do the people on pegasus have though? They should have overturned that ***** long ago!


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## gregmdusa (Oct 10, 2002)

Great episode. 

They took the entire conflict to Apocalypse Now proportions. 

The only thing I don't find plausible is that Cain would let her XO fraternize on Galactica.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Awesome, awesome episode. I absolutely LOVED the last scene switching back between Caine and her XO, and Adama and Starbuck. Amazing TV.

They did try to throw some doubt into the mix, though: when Caine tells Starbuck that she wants to go back and kick the Cylons off of the colony worlds, Starbuck looks like she's found a new best friend.

Is it next Friday yet?


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

It seems both people tasked with carrying out the killing really don't want to kill the person. The XO probably sees a better leader in Adama while Starbuck sees Cain as the way back to Caprica to rescue the people there.

Will either one carry out the mission?


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

I'm starting to think the Cylons _should_ win this war. Maybe they did, and we're the ancestors of the Cylons -- who turn out to be human, after all.


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## mrpantstm (Jan 25, 2005)

Graymalkin said:


> I'm starting to think the Cylons _should_ win this war. Maybe they did, and we're the ancestors of the Cylons -- who turn out to be human, after all.


seriously, who needs Cylons, we can kill each other just fine. 

interesting setup. I think we'll see who goes down next episode, although I doubt Adama can take another frakking shot in the gut 

also, how many episodes do you think Rosalyn's got in here? Not to be too morbid but the Doc said she's got a month tops. I'd say 5-6 episodes? Unless they really drag out things.

And attacking the cylon fleet following them. Yeah I understand wanting to fight back. But uhh, you're kinda outmatched.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

mrpantstm said:


> also, how many episodes do you think Rosalyn's got in here? Not to be too morbid but the Doc said she's got a month tops. I'd say 5-6 episodes? Unless they really drag out things.


I've been thinking about that from the 1st episode. Something tells me she might be saved by Cylon technology or something-similar to how they ressurect themselves....they hinted at that tonight....


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## jfjellstad (May 6, 2002)

mrpantstm said:


> And attacking the cylon fleet following them. Yeah I understand wanting to fight back. But uhh, you're kinda outmatched.


Are they really outmatched? I thought it was said that a modern battlestar like Pegasus was more than a match for a basestar. Only reason the colonials lost so badly in the opening fight was because of the computer virus. Viper Mark II (Galactica's main viper force) are more than a match for Cylon Raiders, and Pegasus has all the new models (mark VI?)

Am I the only one who got a Cylon vibe from Roslyn? I'm beginning to think we'll see a Roslyn model by the end of the season.


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## jfjellstad (May 6, 2002)

One more thing. Cain wanted the whole Galactica command staff executed. Adama wanted Cain executed. Seems like Cain doesn't do anything half-assed.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Graymalkin said:


> we're the ancestors of the Cylons


Suggested a couple/few years ago. It has all happened before and it will all happen again.


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## Malibyte (Jun 12, 2005)

Have to agree...this was a great episode. This show really does get better and better.

I also agree that they dropped a big hint when Roslyn "joked" about getting a new body. 

$5 says she does.


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

This show got to win a bunch of awards!!


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## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

jfjellstad said:


> Are they really outmatched? I thought it was said that a modern battlestar like Pegasus was more than a match for a basestar. Only reason the colonials lost so badly in the opening fight was because of the computer virus. Viper Mark II (Galactica's main viper force) are more than a match for Cylon Raiders, and Pegasus has all the new models (mark VI?)


But... aren't the newer Vipers the ones that the Cylons can shut down with their computer virus?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

cheerdude said:


> But... aren't the newer Vipers the ones that the Cylons can shut down with their computer virus?


I think the explaination is that the PEgasus was in drydock about to receive the "updates" that allow it to be vulnerable to the virus, but did not receive the "updates" before the attach. Therefor their Vipers and Ship are not vulnerable to the virus.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

jstr said:


> I think Starbuck would do it because she is very loyal to Adama, but I don't know about the Pegasus Exec Officer - he seemed very disturbed about the fact that his commander had ordered the civilian ships to be stripped and the families of the resisters to be killed. I think he may turn on his commander and not go through with it.


That's what I immediately thought, too: Starbuck will go through with it (maybe reluctantly), but the Pegasus XO won't be willing to.

But then I started thinking that maybe the XO will try and go through with it, only because he fears what Caine will do to him if he doesn't.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

jfjellstad said:


> Are they really outmatched? I thought it was said that a modern battlestar like Pegasus was more than a match for a basestar. Only reason the colonials lost so badly in the opening fight was because of the computer virus.


Besides fighter abilities, I wonder what the sheer numbers are. I think they mentioned in previous episodes that Galactica is down to only twenty-some vipers and pilots? I bet Pegasus has more.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

gregmdusa said:


> The only thing I don't find plausible is that Cain would let her XO fraternize on Galactica.


I figure she fully trusts him otherwise she wouldn't be delegating to him to hand-pick marines to be stationed on Galactica and wouldn't be choosing him to be the 'hitman' of Adama. She may feel letting him fraternize with the Galactica XO is just a way for her to get more info about the Galactica and its command.

The conversation between the two XO's in this episode showed that she *shouldn't* be so trustworthy, though. Her XO's story about stripping the civilian ships and lining families up against bulkheads for execution was almost like a 'confession of sins'.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Jeeters said:


> But then I started thinking that maybe the XO will try and go through with it, only because he fears what Caine will do to him if he doesn't.


But if he's on Galactica, and he reveals the plot (& especially if he picks a _dis_loyal team), then all of a sudden he's Adama's best buddy. She'd have to go (back) to an open shooting war just to get to him. An assassination would probably result in open war in any case, so he's not risking so much; in fact if he wants out, this would be his golden opportunity.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jeeters said:


> The conversation between the two XO's in this episode showed that she *shouldn't* be so trustworthy, though. Her XO's story about stripping the civilian ships and lining families up against bulkheads for execution was almost like a 'confession of sins'.


It also makes his earlier story about her murdering the previous XO (which he then dismissed as a joke) more plausible.

Personally, I never believed he was joking. She's been an obvious stone-cold psycho from the beginning. (Spoiler from future episode tag-line):


Spoiler



Apparently she doesn't last long, because a few eps from now the tag-line talks about the Pegasus's new commander.


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

So, if they do indeed destroy the new relay ship, and the Cylons back off because they don't want to risk really dying, what do the humans do? Keep running, or back & pick a fight with the Cylons in the 12 colonies?


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## GTO40 (Jul 25, 2005)

Awesome - I rewatched Pegasus twice just to pick up the plot twists before Resurrection ship.


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

mrpantstm said:


> also, how many episodes do you think Rosalyn's got in here? Not to be too morbid but the Doc said she's got a month tops. I'd say 5-6 episodes? Unless they really drag out things.


Roslyn's too important a part of the plot to be killed off. I figured a long time ago they would find some way to miraculously cure the cancer and save her. When she and Adama started talking about giving her a new body like the cylons, I thought it would be cool if the humans found a way to "download" her consciousness into a cylon body. What a cunnundrum that would present to those moralists, huh? Led by a machine.

I was absolutely blown away when Roslyn told Adama he must kill Cain. What a total turnaround for a pacifist like her! As good a plot twist as some stuff we've seen on Lost. After last night's episode, I told my husband this show was tied with Lost as best show on TV. :up:

I was quite appalled with Adama apologizing to Boomer for the attack on her. Kind of a real turnaround for him after her counterpart tried to kill him. But just more proof the colonialists are starting to accept the new breed of cylons as more human.

Starbuck is very ambitious and turned on by the promotion by Cain and the carrot that Cain will lead them back to Caprica, but in the end, it's obvious her loyality to Adama will win and she'll assassinate her new mentor. As to the assassin from Pegasus, he'll fail in his order to kill Adama.

Cheryl


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## jfjellstad (May 6, 2002)

7thton said:


> So, if they do indeed destroy the new relay ship, and the Cylons back off because they don't want to risk really dying, what do the humans do? Keep running, or back & pick a fight with the Cylons in the 12 colonies?


I wonder why they think the Cylons would back off. Why couldn't the Cylons just jump in a new resurrection ship?


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## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

From the previews:


Spoiler



From the scene with Admiral Caine saying "Frak you" to the woman holding the gun on her, at first glance, you have to assume it is Starbuck, but if you check the wrist you will notice the bruising pattern observed on Gina, the captive Six.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

WinBear said:


> From the previews:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Whoa! I shouldn't have read that! I was warned.


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## jstr (Sep 25, 2005)

If Cain does get killed, then Adama becomes admiral. Who does he choose to command the Pegasus? Will the Pegasus become a permanent part of the fleet, and of the show? Or does the Pegasus eventually get blown up by the Cylons?

When Starbuck and Apollo are giving the details about the plan of attack on the Cylon resurrection ship, Colonel Tigh asks how many fighter squadrons are to be involved. Starbuck answers, "All of them", and then the camera focusses and zooms in on Cain. What was up with that? What is going on in that plotting mind of hers? Is she planning something while the civilian fleet is left unprotected during the attack?

Also, just before they all met to plan the attack, they go back and forth showing Adama and Cain deep in thought and fairly stressed. Adama is going over the photos and reports of the resurrection ship, but Cain is going over Galactica's logs.


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## ovr8ted (Feb 27, 2005)

And, , , where back!

1. Rosyln is getting fisty in her approach with death. As mentioned, the Cylon vibe is strong here. Going back to the Spylon's "gift" that Adama is a Cylon, it does make for interesting contemplation.

2. Adama will know that if he is thinking of assassinating Cain, that she will planning the same for him. Bill will be prepared, in the event the Peg. XO decides to go through with it. Although, I think the XO will not, and will have chosen Razors that are sympathetic with him, not Cain.

3. The Resurrection ship is a terrific twist to the plot! This brings a whole new tactic to the fleet. I believe 6 in containment said they built it as a way to branch out for the long distance. Of course, who knows if this 6 is feeding the fleet mis-information???

4. Adama is cautious of the "civies" taken aboard. In a related thought, how many eps until we get to see another cylon model? I was certain Lucy Lawless would show up on the Pegasus somehow, although I think 6 was the better choice.

5. I really hope this series doesn't find it's way to NBC ("mainstream") as it will surely be ruined. They will take the darkness out of it, and replace it with constant happy endings and obvious plot lines. This show rocks! Long live BSG :up: 

1b. Wouldn't it be cool (for Adama) if Rosyln took over the old Boomer's body


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## DPF (Mar 20, 2003)

jstr said:


> When Starbuck and Apollo are giving the details about the plan of attack on the Cylon resurrection ship, Colonel Tigh asks how many fighter squadrons are to be involved. Starbuck answers, "All of them", and then the camera focusses and zooms in on Cain. What was up with that? What is going on in that plotting mind of hers? Is she planning something while the civilian fleet is left unprotected during the attack?


This just seems to me like a nice (read: obvious) method of getting all the vipers from both BS's out of the hangars so one Battlestar (Pegasus) can be destroyed in the cylon fight or be forced to jump out to destinations unknown. This then conveniently leaves all the vipers to go back to Galactica, solving the ongoing problem of a tiny remaining viper fleet. I haven't looked at any future ep summaries so I don't know how long the Peg stays around or when the Cylon Res Ship attack happens.

-DPF


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Another argument for the "Roslyn is a Cylon" theory... Adama never would have thought to kill Cain on his own. She offered the suggested knowing that Cain would not hesitate to have Adama killed. This way the humans will off themselves saving the Cylons the trouble. Shades of this week's


Spoiler



Stargate: Atlantis


?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Me, I'm hoping for a Buffy bot to liven things up.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

jstr said:


> If Cain does get killed, then Adama becomes admiral. Who does he choose to command the Pegasus? Will the Pegasus become a permanent part of the fleet, and of the show? Or does the Pegasus eventually get blown up by the Cylons?


I think the ending of the Pegasus story in the original series was pretty good, would expect this to end much the same way. Then always an option for bringing it back later if the series has legs and ideas start dwindling.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

Awesome episode.

I wonder if Pegasus 6 wants to die because she's suffering or because she wants to give the cylons a heads up about the fleets resurrection ship knowledge and impending attack.


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## jfjellstad (May 6, 2002)

ovr8ted said:


> 3. The Resurrection ship is a terrific twist to the plot! This brings a whole new tactic to the fleet. I believe 6 in containment said they built it as a way to branch out for the long distance. Of course, who knows if this 6 is feeding the fleet mis-information???


I wonder if there is one resurrection ship for each cylon model, or that one resurrection ship has all the models. We only saw Six, but if there are more models aboard (and why wouldn't there), you might not want to completely destroy it.



ovr8ted said:


> 4. Adama is cautious of the "civies" taken aboard. In a related thought, how many eps until we get to see another cylon model? I was certain Lucy Lawless would show up on the Pegasus somehow, although I think 6 was the better choice.


Didn't they already introduce two this season? With four from the first season, they probably don't want to introduce any more this season (have to stretch it out in case some of the actors playing cylons are unavailable, and they need a new model)


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## jfjellstad (May 6, 2002)

Narkul said:


> I wonder if Pegasus 6 wants to die because she's suffering or because she wants to give the cylons a heads up about the fleets resurrection ship knowledge and impending attack.


The vibe I got was that she wanted to cease to exist. Meaning she wants the resurrection ship to be destroyed so that when the body dies, she won't wake up in another place with the same memories.


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## jfjellstad (May 6, 2002)

jstr said:


> If Cain does get killed, then Adama becomes admiral.


Why would Adama get promoted if Cain gets killed? Lots of admirals died during the opening fight without Adama being promoted to admiral. Why would this time be different?


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## sschwart (Apr 4, 2001)

I just watched it. Wow. Great episode, and great cliffhanger. Is it next Friday yet?


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Gunnyman said:


> Fracking excellent episode.
> totally didn't expect the president to take that tact.
> Why can't she just demote/discharge Cain?
> I've never really understood the whole military/colonial govt. situation. Seems to me as President she should have SOME control over the military.


You're pinpointing into the heart of the power of government. The civilian government almost always need the backing of the military command. That's what usually keep ordinary people from revolting. However, if the military commands loses faith in the governemnt, then the government loses all of its power. Then you might get a military coup.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Shows like "Battlestar Galactica" and "24" convince me that episodic television has surpassed the quality of Hollywood cinema over the past several years!


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

My first thought when Cain zoomed in the photo of the resurrection ship to reveal a 6, was, how many other models will they be able to identify in those? Whose face is going to show up?! I hope they come back to that.

BTW, I still believe that they should be focusing on eliminating Cylons from their ranks. Starting with Sharon and Gina. Out the airlock with em! Use the pics from resurrection to identify any others and blow them out, too. I find it interesting that when Gina had a personal reason for wanting them to know, she identified the resurrection ship instantly; yet Sharon wasnt going to tell under torture. 

Someone refresh my memory on how it is that the stealth ship was immediately visible to Galactica and Pegasus but the Cylons couldnt detect it.

I think Roslin displays an astute judge of character when she lays it out to Adama that Cain must die. She correctly discerns what Cain would do with the civilians if Adama wasnt around. I think Adama would have come around sooner, but his military discipline wouldnt let him think about eliminating an officer.

I would like to hear more about the specific story of the new deck chief, a civilian engineer taken off the Scylla. Something about that guy gives me the creeps. Maybe Cylon, or just off a little bit from the trauma of seeing innocent people slaughtered by the good guys.

I like how both assassination plots are very similar to how Adama was shot, keeping in the whole history repeats itself motif. I think its funny how Adama is very specific about the one thing that Boomer got wrong  Shoot her in the head


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## questfortruth (Feb 18, 2005)

Cain's plot involves "terminating Adama's command, starting with Adama." Presumably she intends to kill Tigh and the rest of Adama's top people.

As for the plan to lure the Cylon raiders away with civilian ships...what's to stop them from immediately jumping back to the basestars to protect them and the Resurrection ship from the colonial fleet?

Anyhow, thank the Lords of Kobol that the wait is over, and BSG is back!


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jfjellstad said:


> Why would Adama get promoted if Cain gets killed? Lots of admirals died during the opening fight without Adama being promoted to admiral. Why would this time be different?


My guess is that they will need to promote someone to Commander to command the Pegasus, then they promote Adama just to keep the chain of command clear.


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## jstr (Sep 25, 2005)

atrac said:


> Shows like "Battlestar Galactica" and "24" convince me that episodic television has surpassed the quality of Hollywood cinema over the past several years!


I've been thinking the exact same thing everytime I hear that the number of people who go out to the movies is on the decline. The discussion usually centers on the decline of the theatre experience (cell phones ringing, etc.), higher cost of movie tickets, or people waiting for DVD release. I believe these are all valid reasons, but the point you make may be the main reason. Television production has taken a huge stride forward in just the past five years.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Oh man, good stuff! I can't believe Roslyn suggesting assassination. And I can't believe Adam planning it! Time flew by and I was surprised by the "to be continued." Go, clock, go!


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## jstr (Sep 25, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> I think its funny how Adama is very specific about the one thing that Boomer got wrong  Shoot her in the head


I think that was an awesome contrast between Cain's somewhat general "you are to signal the Marines to terminate Adama's command, starting with Adama," and Adama's almost whispering but very blunt "I want you to pull out your weapon, and shoot Admiral Cain in the head." Powerful television!


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

dtle said:


> You're pinpointing into the heart of the power of government. The civilian government almost always need the backing of the military command. That's what usually keep ordinary people from revolting. However, if the military commands loses faith in the governemnt, then the government loses all of its power. Then you might get a military coup.


True, once things break down (as they continually threaten to on this show). However, at this point Cain is still using the old chain of command as her main basis for taking over; if the Colonial president was the commander-in-chief, as is the case in the US, then Roslin(sp?) could use that same chain of command argument against her. Obviously something is different in the way the civilian & military governments interact(ed) on a legal basis in the Colonies.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I regret deleting this after watching it. I just rewatched the midseason finale and now want to rewatch this episode. Thankfully it's on again before the next episode. I can't think of any show I've loved on so many levels. I was remarking last night that it's a shame Emmys and Golden Globes don't recognize this show beyond it's technical merits. It's so much more than a Sci-Fi show.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Narkul said:


> I wonder if Pegasus 6 wants to die because she's suffering or because she wants to give the cylons a heads up about the fleets resurrection ship knowledge and impending attack.


I thought she expressed her wish to die before she saw the pictures of the ship...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Dayum! 

Admiral Caine. She's got to get got.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> I thought she expressed her wish to die before she saw the pictures of the ship...


Although the scene does not explicitly imply she saw the pictures. Baltar was standing with his back to her looking at them when she attacked him. While she was choking him they must have been laying on the floor beside him.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

latrobe7: Apollo secretly IM'd Starbuck to tell her what was what, and so Starbuck left stealthy mode so she could become a focus and distract everyone from running into each other or starting to shoot. She gave both Battlestar commanders a way and reason to back down while saving face. Now, I know you're going to say if the ship is stealthy due to the materials it's made out of, then how does Starbuck "leave stealthy mode" and I don't know. But, I'm going to assume that's how it happened and I'm not listening to logic arguments (la la la la la still not listening la la la la la) so there! 

Re Roslin: I actually wasn't surprised by her grasp of the situation, or even her advice (although it was a little shocking how blunt and direct she was--but hey, she doesn't have time for tiptoeing around!!) She's showed a lot of savvy for a secretary of education . And, she's definitely been hard-core for a while now; it seems like since she found out about the prophecy she's been pretty serious. She definitely is much tougher on the Cylons than Adama is, remember: she's perfectly willing to kill them immediately, blow them out airlocks, etc. while Adama is more willing to see them as "people".


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

atrac said:


> Shows like "Battlestar Galactica" and "24" convince me that episodic television has surpassed the quality of Hollywood cinema over the past several years!


Well, "24" isn't the worst thing out there, but I'll still say you picked two shows on opposite ends of the spectrum. "Battlestar Galactica" has created a generally consistent universe to exist in; "24" can't even manage to figure out transit times between two points.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> Someone refresh my memory on how it is that the stealth ship was immediately visible to Galactica and Pegasus but the Cylons couldnt detect it.


My best guess is they detected the FTL jump when she entered into space close to them. When she went on the recon mission, she jumped to a fair distance away from the Cylons, then flew in quietly only using maneuvering thrusters. Not giving out any kind of Colonial engine signature to the Cylons. I just kind of accepted it and moved on.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> My best guess is they detected the FTL jump when she entered into space close to them. When she went on the recon mission, she jumped to a fair distance away from the Cylons, then flew in quietly only using maneuvering thrusters. Not giving out any kind of Colonial engine signature to the Cylons. I just kind of accepted it and moved on.


Actually, she (Starbuck in the Blackbird) is invisble to Dradus. She popped back into Colonial space. Apollo IMed her from the raptor. So she made herself visible to everyone by transponding her signal.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

IndyJones1023 said:


> she made herself visible to everyone by transponding her signal.


I'm not sure "transponding" is a word...but in any case, if she's using her transponder, should that automatically reveal who she is? Everyone seemed to think that she was a raider...


----------



## jerobi (Sep 28, 2000)

speedcouch said:


> Roslyn's too important a part of the plot to be killed off. I figured a long time ago they would find some way to miraculously cure the cancer and save her. When she and Adama started talking about giving her a new body like the cylons, I thought it would be cool if the humans found a way to "download" her consciousness into a cylon body. What a cunnundrum that would present to those moralists, huh? Led by a machine.


And if the humans take control of such a download and she does get a new body, it would leave the "Is she really a Cylon?" issue completely unresolved for future storylines! Maybe the humans worked out a hack, maybe it was just default Cylon tech kicking in. We wouldn't know.

Maybe I'm dense, but were we supposed to glean any knowledge from the fuzzy spy photo of those three Cyclon models? Was that a new model?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

madscientist said:


> latrobe7: Apollo secretly IM'd Starbuck to tell her what was what, and so Starbuck left stealthy mode so she could become a focus and distract everyone from running into each other or starting to shoot. She gave both Battlestar commanders a way and reason to back down while saving face. Now, I know you're going to say if the ship is stealthy due to the materials it's made out of, then how does Starbuck "leave stealthy mode" and I don't know. But, I'm going to assume that's how it happened and I'm not listening to logic arguments (la la la la la still not listening la la la la la) so there!


Well, duh! Tell me something I don't know!  

Actually, I think I'll go with a variation of an explanation further down the page, that they detected her engines. She definitely cut her main engines before she got close to the Cylons. I'm not sure it was the FTL jump in, though. The way it plays out seems like they don't detect her until after she gets the IM from Apollo.



> Re Roslin: I actually wasn't surprised by her grasp of the situation, or even her advice (although it was a little shocking how blunt and direct she was--but hey, she doesn't have time for tiptoeing around!!) She's showed a lot of savvy for a secretary of education . And, she's definitely been hard-core for a while now; it seems like since she found out about the prophecy she's been pretty serious. She definitely is much tougher on the Cylons than Adama is, remember: she's perfectly willing to kill them immediately, blow them out airlocks, etc. while Adama is more willing to see them as "people".


I didn't mean to imply that her perception was anything new.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> she made herself visible to everyone by transponding her signal.


Is that what the kids are calling it these days?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jerobi said:


> Maybe I'm dense, but were we supposed to glean any knowledge from the fuzzy spy photo of those three Cyclon models? Was that a new model?


No, it wasn't a new model it was 6. But the implication is that all the models are resurrected in this ship. If they can see 6 in that part of the ship, in other parts they could see Boomers or Leobens, etc. The idea being to identify the models they have not yet identified.


----------



## questfortruth (Feb 18, 2005)

jerobi said:


> And if the humans take control of such a download and she does get a new body, it would leave the "Is she really a Cylon?" issue completely unresolved for future storylines! Maybe the humans worked out a hack, maybe it was just default Cylon tech kicking in. We wouldn't know.
> 
> Maybe I'm dense, but were we supposed to glean any knowledge from the fuzzy spy photo of those three Cyclon models? Was that a new model?


I don't know, but it would be pretty dramatic if the attacking Viper pilots recognized some previously-unknown Colonials/spylons while attacking the resurrection ship...


----------



## EchoBravo (Apr 20, 2002)

> *I was remarking last night that it's a shame Emmys and Golden Globes don't recognize this show beyond it's technical merits. It's so much more than a Sci-Fi show. *


Sci-fi fans have been used to being ignored for years now. It's just as well. I'll take it as a highly-rated niche show. If it gets too big, they'll dumb it down so the average sitcom fan can follow .. and as someone already pointed out .. every episode would have a happy, Americanized ending.

In this rare case, the status quo is our friend.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

why would you build a see-through spaceship?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

questfortruth said:


> I don't know, but it would be pretty dramatic if the attacking Viper pilots recognized some previously-unknown Colonials/spylons while attacking the resurrection ship...


More to the point, it's idiotic to attack the ship without sending Starbuck to do another recon, and this time make sure she gets shots of all the areas of the ship so they'll KNOW WHO ALL THE SPYLONS ARE!


----------



## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> why would you build a see-through spaceship?


If new cylons are grown, perhaps its an easy way to visually inspect their progress.


----------



## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> why would you build a see-through spaceship?


Maybe it has something to do with receiving all of the transmitions?


----------



## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

Nobody posted how the Cylon Resurrection Ship looks a lot like the Air Force Academy Cadet Chapel. Ron Moore in his Podcast doesn't say the designers took cues from it, but it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the ship.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> I'm not sure "transponding" is a word...but in any case, if she's using her transponder, should that automatically reveal who she is? Everyone seemed to think that she was a raider...


They felt it was too much to explain, and the detail doesn't really matter. It is simpler to just accept that she just did "something," and it didn't matter what. That's the producers' angle on it...


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Actually, she (Starbuck in the Blackbird) is invisble to Dradus. She popped back into Colonial space. Apollo IMed her from the raptor. So she made herself visible to everyone by transponding her signal.


...And Starbuck appears as a 'friendly' to the Cylons. Think about it!


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> why would you build a see-through spaceship?


Because the female model Cylons are hot?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hefe said:


> They felt it was too much to explain, and the detail doesn't really matter. It is simpler to just accept that she just did "something," and it didn't matter what. That's the producers' angle on it...


And remember when she did her first test-drive. They had no problem tracking her until she took off; then it was like she vanished from their screens. So the Blackbird isn't inherently invisible; it depends on, apparently, what she's doing at the moment.


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## SparkleMotion (Feb 2, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> why would you build a see-through spaceship?


Wait until Wonder Woman joins the cast and ask again.


----------



## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And remember when she did her first test-drive. They had no problem tracking her until she took off; then it was like she vanished from their screens. So the Blackbird isn't inherently invisible; it depends on, apparently, what she's doing at the moment.


Exactly my thoughts. Notice how she turns the lights and stuff off for it to go stealth, then when she turns them back on (at least her helmet light) it shows up again. She turned "stealth mode" on when she approached the Cylon ship, then turned it off and took off before they could lock on. She wasn't in "stealth mode" when she came back in. However, I don't think we see them seeing her until she sends a message to Lee, so it may take the two events.


----------



## TIVOSciolist (Oct 13, 2003)

Malibyte said:


> I also agree that they dropped a big hint when Roslyn "joked" about getting a new body.


"Well, Mary, the good news is that your character isn't going to die. The bad news is that we're replacing you with a young hottie."


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

I think it's obvious that she purposely made her transponder show up to get the attention of the other ships after her conversation with Lee. Explaining how is not necessary to the story. And not even that complicated.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

TIVOSciolist said:


> "Well, Mary, the good news is that your character isn't going to die. The bad news is that we're replacing you with a young hottie."


"Boomer for President!"


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Maybe they could kill off the entire cast, and download them into Boomers...

[Jayne]I'll be in my bunk.[/Jayne]


----------



## walkerjs (Sep 22, 2005)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Actually, she (Starbuck in the Blackbird) is invisble to Dradus. She popped back into Colonial space. Apollo IMed her from the raptor. So she made herself visible to everyone by transponding her signal.


Much in the way that today's real stealth fighters have some kind of radar (dradus?) reflector and a transponder so they can be seen on radar when buzzing around the US in the ATC system. When they go into combat they retract whatever that is and turn off the transponder for stealth mode.

Entirely believable.


----------



## ToddAtl (Jul 27, 2003)

Nothing more to add on what has already been said but I am so glad BSG is back!


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## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

Ditto what Todd said - Great ep... and it is so nice for something that is a season-opener (or re-start) that doesn't tie everything up in a neat package.

One thing that I do wonder is if the Pegasus' chief remembers his drunken talks and tell Caine about it ... or if, for self-preservation purposes, he keeps that to himself.


----------



## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

My predictions:

Starbuck will defuse the situation between Adama and Caine like she did when Adama and Roslyn were going at it over Kobol. There will be a "happy medium" found between the two sides.

If the implications of Rosyln being put into a cylon body are true... I doubt it will be one of the 12 current models. I think some way will be found to grow a new cylon body from Roslyn's DNA. The reason for this is that no one will follow her if say she is in 6's body.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Pralix said:


> My predictions:
> 
> Starbuck will defuse the situation between Adama and Caine like she did when Adama and Roslyn were going at it over Kobol. There will be a "happy medium" found between the two sides.


The difference is, neither Adama nor Roslyn is insane and power-hungry.

I very much doubt there's any room for compromise with Caine.


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## Ladd Morse (Feb 21, 2002)

I watched the new BSG episode on Friday and just finished taking in the new Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis episodes this evening.

No offense to the hard-working folks on the Stargate projects, but after seeing BSG, watching those SG episodes was like reading a Bazooka Joe bubble-gum wrapper comic ...


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Is Battlestar Galactica available in HD anywhere, like satellite?


----------



## xtopher_66 (Jan 8, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> Is Battlestar Galactica available in HD anywhere, like satellite?


Universal HD (available on DirecTV's HD package) is currently showing the first half of season 2 on Sunday nights. I believe they aired the second episode lst night.


----------



## Hersheytx (Feb 15, 2003)

Ladd Morse said:


> I watched the new BSG episode on Friday and just finished taking in the new Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis episodes this evening.
> 
> No offense to the hard-working folks on the Stargate projects, but after seeing BSG, watching those SG episodes was like reading a Bazooka Joe bubble-gum wrapper comic ...


I feel the same way.
BSG has so much more character development. I honestly believe that those people are fighting for their lives. You could never be completely sure that someone would not die....not like Stargate.

Even now I am passing my Boxed set of BSG first season around to friends to get them up to speed. Its almost like TIVO. Ya have to get them addicted, but once they are there is no turning back.


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

Pralix said:


> My predictions:
> 
> Starbuck will defuse the situation between Adama and Caine like she did when Adama and Roslyn were going at it over Kobol. There will be a "happy medium" found between the two sides.


I think the issue of Caine and Pegasus will be resolved somewhat like it was in the original series.



Pralix said:


> If the implications of Rosyln being put into a cylon body are true... I doubt it will be one of the 12 current models. I think some way will be found to grow a new cylon body from Roslyn's DNA. The reason for this is that no one will follow her if say she is in 6's body.


Exactly! She and Adama seem to be growing very close lately and I think that would only continue if he new body is the same face and age.

Cheryl


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

speedcouch said:


> Exactly! She and Adama seem to be growing very close lately and I think that would only continue if he new body is the same face and age.
> 
> Cheryl


Except scientifically, it would be very stupid of them to clone a new body and then artificially age it to her current age...

No, if they are to retain any shred of credibility (although they already seemed to have abandoned that with the Boomer fiber-optic fiasco), they'll have to cure her, not relocate her mind.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I'm really surprised by all the praise for this episode. I think this entire plotline with the admiral is garbage that is unworthy of BSG. It's way too over the top and cliched. There are still good moments relating to things outside of the admiral plotline, but it's hard to enjoy these episodes with that plotline playing such a heavy role. I really hope they get this drek over with and get back to the good stuff.

I also want to say that the characters are beginning to act with a complete lack of intelligence. I really hope that this is just a temporary glitch in the writing and not something indicative of a downward spiral into B horror style character stupidity. On the other hand, I think that there is one sign of character intelligence, the admiral clearly took starbuck and apollo off BSG onto her ship to prevent them from meddling with the assassination plot. But back to the stupidity, the only way their assassination will succeed is if she is stupid and does not keep an eye on them.

The real catch 22 is that if the characters are going to act intelligently, they will each see the other's assassination plot and head it off before it happens. But this would mean more of the vomitous plotline with the admiral.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

I love the Caine storyline. I think it's great.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Does anyone else sometimes have trouble hearing the dialogue on this show? Sometimes the lines are spoken very quietly, and with poor articulation. I always have to replay in spots here and there. This episode, I actually turned on subtitles for a while. Of course, I was watching late at night, and the volume was down a bit, but it wasn't that low.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

speedcouch said:


> I think the issue of Caine and Pegasus will be resolved somewhat like it was in the original series.


Agreed. The Pagasus has so much potential to be another major story arc if they need a diversion from the Cylons later in the season or in future ones. There's no reason to kill it off completely.


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

This has been a great storyline and a great episode.

My guess: neither Starbuck nor the Pegasus XO can complete their mission. I'm not sure what happens to Caine - I'd suspect she does need to go at some point. But I do suspect the Pegasus hangs around (possibly with a new commander) and DOES head back to Caprica, while the Galactica stays with the fleet - which should be safer, assuming they knock out the resurrection ship.

They did too much on Caprica with Starbuck just to leave that hanging.


----------



## xtopher_66 (Jan 8, 2004)

hefe said:


> Does anyone else sometimes have trouble hearing the dialogue on this show? Sometimes the lines are spoken very quietly, and with poor articulation. I always have to replay in spots here and there. This episode, I actually turned on subtitles for a while. Of course, I was watching late at night, and the volume was down a bit, but it wasn't that low.


Yes, there have been a few instances where I couldn't make out what they said even after rewinding and playing it back several times. Must be all of the Canadian actors they hired.


----------



## Kevdog (Apr 18, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Actually, she (Starbuck in the Blackbird) is invisble to Dradus. She popped back into Colonial space. Apollo IMed her from the raptor. So she made herself visible to everyone by transponding her signal.


[Whoops, I Smeeked. Replies coming too fast for me to keep up.]

Assuming Dradus operates something like radar (i.e. by bouncing radio waves off of objects and then reading the "echo") the Blackbird is likely to be stealthy because the composite materials its made out of don't reflect Dradus waves and its shape allows waves to pass over it without bouncing back. Those are the same basic principles "real" stealth technology uses. Starbuck could easily become visible by deploying a relatively small, flat paddle that reflects Dradus waves. Our own stealth aircraft use a similar system in exercises and occasionally when flying through civilian airspace.


----------



## SparkleMotion (Feb 2, 2004)

hefe said:


> Does anyone else sometimes have trouble hearing the dialogue on this show? Sometimes the lines are spoken very quietly, and with poor articulation. I always have to replay in spots here and there. This episode, I actually turned on subtitles for a while. Of course, I was watching late at night, and the volume was down a bit, but it wasn't that low.


We often put the captions on...especially when Adama is mumbling (which is always).

The name "Caine" can't be a coincidence...there WILL be mutiny of one sort or another (if not on her own ship, then the one already put into motion by Adama and Tighe with Thrace which should lead to the crew of the Pegasus rising up).

I hope they don't kill her, though...a court martial would be a fascinating story, IMO. A Caine mutiny court martial, if you will. :up:


----------



## rowdan (Feb 26, 2005)

Narkul said:


> Although the scene does not explicitly imply she saw the pictures. Baltar was standing with his back to her looking at them when she attacked him. While she was choking him they must have been laying on the floor beside him.


when she tells baltar she want to die, part of that statment is, i can die if you distroy that ship


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## Kevdog (Apr 18, 2001)

Big_Daddy said:


> This has been a great storyline and a great episode.
> 
> My guess: neither Starbuck nor the Pegasus XO can complete their mission. I'm not sure what happens to Caine - I'd suspect she does need to go at some point.


Is it just me, or is the Pegasus commander's name not a coincidence? The Caine Mutiny?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Kevdog said:


> Is it just me, or is the Pegasus commander's name not a coincidence? The Caine Mutiny?


You don't say?

Now we know Kevdog has SparkleMotion on Ignore.


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## Kevdog (Apr 18, 2001)

hefe said:


> You don't say?
> 
> Now we know Kevdog has SparkleMotion on Ignore.


Jeez, I Smeeked and then smeeked again in about 5 minutes. I'm off to a rough start today.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Jeeters said:


> That's what I immediately thought, too: Starbuck will go through with it (maybe reluctantly), but the Pegasus XO won't be willing to.
> 
> But then I started thinking that maybe the XO will try and go through with it, only because he fears what Caine will do to him if he doesn't.


The other way this could resolve is for Adama to be more alert, due to Rosaline's warnings, and have a contingency in place to prevent the Pegasus marines from taking up their pre-assassination positions.

Basically arrest them, or surround them with Galactica guards.

I do think the differing assassination approaches say something interesting about each side's appraisal of the other side's internal loyalties. Cain thinks that it wouldn't be enough to eliminate Adama, that a fairly large force would be required and would need to eliminate the entire Galactica command team, while holding access to key points on the ship against the rest of the crew. Adama apparently feels that it is sufficient for Starbuck to kill Cain, and that there is no need to kill off the rest of command or hold the ship against a hostile crew, and that Starbuck isn't going to be shot in retaliation by the crew. (I don't think Adama would have asked her if he felt it was a suicide mission; at the least he wouldn't have done so without informing Starbuck).


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Kevdog said:


> Is it just me, or is the Pegasus commander's name not a coincidence? The Caine Mutiny?


I like to think of it this way-

TOS Cain - Sea Hunt
New Cain- Seaward


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

The "terminate Adama's command..." line was an homage to "Apocalypse Now" according to the commentary.



Apocalypse Now said:


> Colonel Lucas: Your mission is to proceed up the Nung River in a Navy patrol boat. Pick up Colonel Kurtz's path at Nu Mung Ba, follow it and learn what you can along the way. When you find the Colonel, infiltrate his team by whatever means available and terminate the Colonel's command.
> 
> Willard: Terminate the Colonel.
> 
> ...


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Big_Daddy said:


> This has been a great storyline and a great episode.
> 
> My guess: neither Starbuck nor the Pegasus XO can complete their mission. I'm not sure what happens to Caine - I'd suspect she does need to go at some point. But I do suspect the Pegasus hangs around (possibly with a new commander) and DOES head back to Caprica, while the Galactica stays with the fleet - which should be safer, assuming they knock out the resurrection ship.
> 
> They did too much on Caprica with Starbuck just to leave that hanging.


Ooh! A spin-off!! Battlestar: Pegasus. I like the sound of that.

I've heard people complaining about Adama mumbling. I've never noticed that. He speaks with a quiet intensity that makes you hang on his every word... IMO obviously.


----------



## gschrock (Dec 28, 2001)

> Nobody posted how the Cylon Resurrection Ship looks a lot like the Air Force Academy Cadet Chapel. Ron Moore in his Podcast doesn't say the designers took cues from it, but it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the ship.


As someone that live in Colo Springs for 5 years, I definitely came to that conclusion immediately. I also thought it was amusing that they could immediately whip up a model for use on the planning board


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

gschrock said:


> I also thought it was amusing that they could immediately whip up a model for use on the planning board


Not so far fetched. Their surveillance package probably has a 3-D measurement component to the imagery. And they probably have 3-D "printers" in their futuristic envirnoment. So, it was probably as easy as taking a digital picture and printing it out for us.


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

I don't think Starbuck will pull the trigger. It will either be her own XO OR Rosalyn. She doesn't have much to lose. The Pegasus then goes back to Caprica to save the civilians and try to "make up" for the wrongs they committed.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

SparkleMotion said:


> I hope they don't kill her, though...a court martial would be a fascinating story, IMO. A Caine mutiny court martial, if you will. :up:


I'm wondering if Cain will be revealed to be one of the human Cylon models... I also wouldn't be surprised if she had a romantic relationship with the copy of Six on her ship before they found out Six was a Cylon.


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## theharleyman (Dec 26, 2001)

sbourgeo said:


> I'm wondering if Cain will be revealed to be one of the human Cylon models... I also wouldn't be surprised if she had a romantic relationship with the copy of Six on her ship before they found out Six was a Cylon.


Oh, flashback PLEASE!!


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

The above posts have made me realize that there is still hope for this junk plot to be salvaged, as I hadn't considered the possibilities of cylons and/or lesbians. If she turns out to be a cylon, that would perfectly fit the over-the-top-ness.


----------



## Ladd Morse (Feb 21, 2002)

speedcouch said:


> I think the issue of Caine and Pegasus will be resolved somewhat like it was in the original series.


Everyone has been doing very well and I would like to offer a general compliment to all, and encourage folks to keep it up -- I'm one of probably many people who never saw the original series, have no idea what happened with Pegasus then and I don't want to accidently find out now!


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

speedcouch said:


> ...After last night's episode...this show was tied with Lost as best show on TV....


EXACTLY my thoughts as I watched it this morning.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> Whoa! I shouldn't have read that! I was warned.


Me three


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

theharleyman said:


> Oh, flashback PLEASE!!


That IS what happens when Spylons have sex!!


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Maybe they could kill off the entire cast, and download them into Boomers...
> 
> [Jayne]I'll be in my bunk.[/Jayne]


Oh, crap, I just fell off my chair


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

Narkul said:


> Although the scene does not explicitly imply she saw the pictures. Baltar was standing with his back to her looking at them when she attacked him. While she was choking him they must have been laying on the floor beside him.


It looked as if she glanced at the pictures as she was choking him and when she saw them, she immediately jumped off and then said she wanted to die.


----------



## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

cheerdude said:


> ...
> 
> One thing that I do wonder is if the Pegasus' chief remembers his drunken talks and tell Caine about it ... or if, for self-preservation purposes, he keeps that to himself.


I'm betting that he's not just spilling the beans because he's drunk. On the Pegasus he _knows_ that Caine is certifiable and that what they're doing is wrong, but he also knows that talking to her about it will get him shot like the last XO. He also can't talk to anyone else lest word gets back to Caine. Leadrs like Caine always have informants in the crew, other psychos who want to impress the chief so they can get prommmoted and give out some of the lunatic orders. Talking to the BSG XO is a release for him. He finally gets it off his chest without fear of reprisal, plus now that somebody else knows about it maybe something will be done about Caine, something he's too afraid to do himself.



sbourgeo said:


> I'm wondering if Cain will be revealed to be one of the human Cylon models... I also wouldn't be surprised if she had a romantic relationship with the copy of Six on her ship before they found out Six was a Cylon.


Oooh, not only a Spylon but a Lesbyon as well? Score!


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Or Lesbylon. 

That works.


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## mcarleton2000 (Dec 23, 2003)

Why didn't they scan Starbuck's photos for a complete set of cylon clone faces?
Who needs a Cylon detector now? Might even see Cain's face there.


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

hefe said:


> Or Lesbylon...


I miss Lesbylon 5. <sigh>


----------



## questfortruth (Feb 18, 2005)

mcarleton2000 said:


> Why didn't they scan Starbuck's photos for a complete set of cylon clone faces?
> Who needs a Cylon detector now? Might even see Cain's face there.


I think we can assume that they milked the photos for all of the available intelligence data.

The question is, why not send the blackbird back on another scouting mission, to try to identify more spylons on the resurrection ship?


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Why can't they put a FTL drive directly on a nuke and jump it right into the belly of the ship?


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

5thcrewman said:


> Why can't they put a FTL drive directly on a nuke and jump it right into the belly of the ship?


Methinks it might detonate as soon as FTL powered up?


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Methinks it might detonate as soon as FTL powered up?


Introduce them slowly so they'll be friends?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

questfortruth said:


> I think we can assume that they milked the photos for all of the available intelligence data.
> 
> The question is, why not send the blackbird back on another scouting mission, to try to identify more spylons on the resurrection ship?


Why would you assume that? Might as well assume they did another recon mission too.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> Methinks it might detonate as soon as FTL powered up?


Then why don't they detonate whenever they FTL jump now?


----------



## questfortruth (Feb 18, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> Why would you assume that? Might as well assume they did another recon mission too.


I assume it because it makes sense. The discovery of a new spylon model would be big news, the kind of thing that the audience would be privy to. Ditto with a second recon mission.


----------



## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> Methinks it might detonate as soon as FTL powered up?


Cylon raiders jump and then fire nukes, and the Galactica itself carries nukes and makes jumps safely. It's probably more a matter of aiming. They'd have to have a ship get precise coordinates of the target vessel, then jump back, relay the info to the launching vessel. The launching vessel would have to make the jump calculations which based on the one episode takes at least 5 minutes taking into account the speed and heading of the target ship and upload that to the warhead. THEN they could launch it in the hopes that the target has maintained a steady speed/heading, jump a spy ship back in to verify a hit or miss and try again if they missed. Huge gamble to take with the limited number of warheads they have. Didn't Baltar cannibalize one of the last nukes they had to make his Cylon detector?


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> Then why don't they detonate whenever they FTL jump now?


Not armed? Jeesh! RTFM!


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## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

hefe said:


> Does anyone else sometimes have trouble hearing the dialogue on this show? Sometimes the lines are spoken very quietly, and with poor articulation. I always have to replay in spots here and there. This episode, I actually turned on subtitles for a while. Of course, I was watching late at night, and the volume was down a bit, but it wasn't that low.


Closed Captioning is your friend. I pretty much leave mine on for all shows. :up: It's also lots of fun especially when the captioner get a version of the script different from the final draft. Or they pick up background chitchat from the actors that is later muted and replaced with music or closing credits. Or the station uses the default captions for a movie, bleeps the swearwords but forgets to censer the captions. 

When I have to be really quite (ie late at night) I use a mp3/cd player car adapter fm transmitter. Turn the volume off, plug in the transmitter, and turn on my headphones. I can turn my headphones up to any level and not disturb anyone else in the house.


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## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

5thcrewman said:


> Why can't they put a FTL drive directly on a nuke and jump it right into the belly of the ship?


FTL drives are probably too valuable to use for normal fighting in this manner. No industrial base to make more. But in this case I don't see why they couldn't sacrifice one or two FTL drives for the _most important ship in the galaxy._

Also why did they decimate that cylon fleet Boomer neutralized a few episodes ago? They could have harvested the superior FTL drives and saved a few ships for Starbuck (and others) to fly.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

questfortruth said:


> I assume it because it makes sense. The discovery of a new spylon model would be big news, the kind of thing that the audience would be privy to. Ditto with a second recon mission.


Well, suit yourself. I wouldnt be surprised if they pull out the photos even after they attack the ship and say, "Oh, yeah; take a look at this". If they'd already looked at it, it would have taken one line in the script to put it to rest ("Yes, Commander, we've reviewed the photos, and there no more discernable faces"). The fact that they didn't do that would incline me to believe that they will revisit the photos.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

bryan314 said:


> most important ship in the galaxy.


I don't get that "most important" bit. To me, it would only be so important if it were unique and irreplaceable. But I've seen nothing to suggest that it's either.


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

If both Battlestars can take on two Base Stars then how come Galactica never fought the Base stars that show up. They always run away.


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## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> I don't get that "most important" bit. To me, it would only be so important if it were unique and irreplaceable. But I've seen nothing to suggest that it's either.


Caine refered to the Resurection ship as probably the most important ship in the galaxy.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

bryan314 said:


> Caine refered to the Resurection ship as probably the most important ship in the galaxy.


I know she did. I just don't see why.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

warrenevans said:


> If both Battlestars can take on two Base Stars then how come Galactica never fought the Base stars that show up. They always run away.


Because of the potential for collateral damage among all the unarmed civilian vessels.


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## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> I know she did. I just don't see why.


Sorry, my bad.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

5thcrewman said:


> Why can't they put a FTL drive directly on a nuke and jump it right into the belly of the ship?


[Party Pooper Mode] Because it's a tv show and it wouldn't be as fun to watch if they made it this easy? [/Party Pooper Mode]


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

warrenevans said:


> If both Battlestars can take on two Base Stars then how come Galactica never fought the Base stars that show up. They always run away.


Even if there's a 90% chance that they can beat a base star, over time the more battles they engage in, the more likely it is something will go wrong.

The more attention they attract, the more likely that the Cylons will eventually pool their resources and attack in larger numbers.

Apart from morale amongst themselves, what do they have to lose by avoiding a battle? It's not like the fact that they're running away is destabilizing the situation 'back home'. For the most part, there is no more 'back home'. The fleet will be happy just surviving and staying out of danger one more time. They probably don't mind being on the run, given the alternative.

It's not even their stated objective to beat the Cylons and restore the colonies at this point. They're merely running away from them to find Earth, which they believe will have enough resources to defeat them. And we all know how _that_ turned out in the old series 

That and Doug's civilian answer.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

jschuur said:


> Even if there's a 90% chance that they can beat a base star, over time the more battles they engage in, the more likely it is something will go wrong.


Projecting forward from the beginning, after four such battles your odds are basically 50/50. Personally, I wouldn't risk a lucrative TV series on the flip of a coin like that.

edited to add: after _five_ battles, as I think about it.


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## myriadian (Sep 20, 2002)

and don't forget the use of ammo and such in these fights. the vipers fire actual projectiles i thought? and you don't see them mining moons/asteroids/worlds for more metal so.....ammo would be in short supply if they engaged in several protracted battles.

M.


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## neekoh (Jan 2, 2005)

If Starbuck kills Caine, I think Starbuck will get to command the Pegasus.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Redux said:


> Projecting forward from the beginning, after four such battles your odds are basically 50/50. Personally, I wouldn't risk a lucrative TV series on the flip of a coin like that.
> 
> edited to add: after _five_ battles, as I think about it.


Really?

Think about this:

If you buy a lottery ticket for 5 different drawings and each drawing you have a 1 in 5 chance of winning the jackpot, what are the odds you'll win the jackpot at least once in those 5 drawings?

5 in 25. Or more simply: 1 in 5.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Really?


Yes, really.

You're talking about the xth battle itself. Once (if) you get there.

I'm talking about the odds, "projecting forward" as I said, of entering into a series of battles.

Your mistake is a serious one made by people who fancy themselves mathematically sophisticated. It is responsible for lots of money lost in the market and other gambling venues.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Redux said:


> Yes, really.
> 
> You're talking about the xth battle itself. Once (if) you get there.
> 
> ...


There's not a single part of that statement that's even remotely true.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

I lack the mathematical skills to explain it, but while you're correct that given similar starting points, the chance of an individual event happening is always the same and independent of the outcome the turn before or after a particular battle, when you look at a collective amount of battles, the chance increases over time that one of them is lost. The number of permutations that include at least 1 loss over 5 battles (e.g. win-loss-loss-loss-loss or win-loss-win-loss-win) is higher than that of only one battle (just 'loss').


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

balboa dave said:


> There's not a single part of that statement that's even remotely true.


One despairs.

The probability of success of an initial trial in this example we have been given is 90%. What is the probability of winning six in a row? I regard using a calculator in casual conversation as cheating but it's about 50%. The probability of winning that sixth trial is still 90%, but you have to get there, and about 40%(?) of the time you won't.

This is fifth grade stuff, people.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

dswallow said:


> If you buy a lottery ticket for 5 different drawings and each drawing you have a 1 in 5 chance of winning the jackpot, what are the odds you'll win the jackpot at least once in those 5 drawings?
> 
> 5 in 25. Or more simply: 1 in 5.


That's not right.

Look at it this way:
What are the odds you'll lose the first jackpot? (0.8) = 80%
What are the odds you'll lose the first two jackpots? (0.8 x 0.8) = 64%
What are the odds you'll lose the first three jackpots? (0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8) = 51%
What are the odds you'll lose the first four jackpots? (0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8) = 41%
What are the odds you'll lose all five jackpots? (0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8) = 33%

That means that you have a 67% chance to win at least once.

Here's another example. Let's say you flip a coin. What are the odds you'll get heads? 50%. If you flip it 10 times, what are the odds you'll get heads at least once? It's certainly not just 50%! It's actually 99.902%


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## Firegeek (Aug 22, 2005)

And chicks in the Happy Hour are wondering why some TCF guys aren't married.


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## Hersheytx (Feb 15, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> I know she did. I just don't see why.


Because then the Human Cylons would fear death just like humans. It puts them on a level playing field. Makes them see that life is over when their light goes out.

Morale for the fleet would improve. Morale for the cylons would drop. It would give the human survivors a chance to really get some distance from the following cylon base ships.


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## yaddayaddayadda (Apr 8, 2003)

Firegeek said:


> And chicks in the Happy Hour are wondering why some TCF guys aren't married.


Well Played.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Caine's XO will take her out. 

You've got to find a way for these 2 ships to coexist. Having an agent from an opposing ship take out the top dog will cause general chaos and result in an automatic attempt at retribution. If Caine's XO takes her out, there is a better chance for the rest of the crew to acknowledge that maybe it was for the best. 

After the XO's drunken storytelling about stripping the ships and killing the families, you've got to think that he knows Caine has to go.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

warrenevans said:


> If both Battlestars can take on two Base Stars then how come Galactica never fought the Base stars that show up. They always run away.


Don't forget that Galactica is / was short on Vipers, and is less powerful that Pegasus.

And even with Pegasus's larger and newer Viper force this plan still relies on decoying away the majority of the Cylon Raiders before the Pegasus and Galactica attack.

It doesn't conclusively show that Galactica on her own could take a single base star in a straight up fight. And even if she did, the battle damage and viper losses would seriously weaken her ability to defend the civilian ships in the future.

The current attack is really only justified because of the hope that destroying the resurrection ship will force the Cylons to retreat, and hopefully allow the fleet breathing time (or best case to totally break contact with the Cylons). It probably wouldn't be worth the risk if the attack was just to eliminate the two base stars.



Hersheytx said:


> Amnesia said:
> 
> 
> > I know she did. I just don't see why.
> ...


I believe Amnesia's point was that we have no proof that there is only one resurrection ship, or that the Cylon's can't build more. So it seems likely that the benefits that you correctly pointed out will be only temporary advantages until the Cylons can come up with a replacement ship. That makes it an important target (especially given the hope of breaking contact with the Cylons during their vulnerable period), but not the "most important ship in the galaxy".


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## GTO40 (Jul 25, 2005)

To directly engage the Basestar's & raiders, could damage either Battlestars to the point of requiring drydock for repairs (too risky). And I am questioning if the Pegasus is fully 100 % operational herself. Since she was in drydock awaiting retrofit when the Cylons attacked. 

Wonder if next Friday's cliff is the gun pointing at Admiral Caine, with a gunshot heard over - to be continued flash on screen


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## questfortruth (Feb 18, 2005)

According to the scifi.com battlestar galactica ship gallery...

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/

...the cylon basestars "overmatch the Galactica in nearly every tactical respect."

Even if the Pegasus overmatched a single basestar, the colonials can't replace damaged/destroyed ships, whereas the cylons seem to have almost limitless supply lines.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Perhaps if the Pegasus flew head on _into_ a base star [Edit], it would stand a chance?

Nah...


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## SparkleMotion (Feb 2, 2004)

I assume you mean "Basestar"?


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## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

With the president being so gung-ho on taking Caine out, why didn't she just shoot her at their meeting?


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

I don't buy the premise that destroying the resurrection ship will cause the cylons to pause.

There are 2 types of cylons that we have seen. The human forms and the machine forms. I somehow don't see the machine forms (toasters & raiders) being transferred into other "bodies". The machine forms can go in indefinitely. They are unaware of their mortality. The human forms may slow down, but they aren't the "combat" types. They can only wage a limited war with the colonial fleet.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

GadgetFreak said:


> With the president being so gung-ho on taking Caine out, why didn't she just shoot her at their meeting?


Having just watched the second episode of this season on UHD (where the Galactica was boarded) she refused a weapon to defend herself. She is obviously uncomfortable around weapons.


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

GadgetFreak said:


> With the president being so gung-ho on taking Caine out, why didn't she just shoot her at their meeting?


Being the President, why didn't she just relieve Caine of command?


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## SparkleMotion (Feb 2, 2004)

Pralix said:


> Being the President, why didn't she just relieve Caine of command?


Earlier in this thread, we were reminded that the President's agreement with Adama allows her to administer civillian issues and him (or his military superiors) to administer all things military. This was why there was the split last season when the president had Kara go after Apollo's Arrow against Tighe's direct order.

During this time of war, the military and the civiliancy are not under a single chain of command as we in this country are supposed to be.

IOW, President does NOT outrank Admiral at this time and it's not as simple as merely relieving her of command.


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## jfjellstad (May 6, 2002)

Pralix said:


> Being the President, why didn't she just relieve Caine of command?


Ron Moore also points out in his podcast that Roslyn knows that there is no way the Caine or the Pegasus crew would follow such a command. Who is going to stop Cain if she refuses? Same with Galactica last season.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> That's not right.
> 
> Look at it this way:
> What are the odds you'll lose the first jackpot? (0.8) = 80%
> ...


Well isn't this kinda wrong? dswallow said you would have 5 different drawings. So each different drawing you have a 1 in 5 or 20% chance of winning, 80% chance of losing.

Your math is if you have tickets for the same drawing.

Or am I misunderstanding the question.

J


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jwjody said:


> Well isn't this kinda wrong? dswallow said you would have 5 different drawings. So each different drawing you have a 1 in 5 or 20% chance of winning, 80% chance of losing.
> 
> Your math is if you have tickets for the same drawing.
> 
> ...


I forget the original question too.  But Amnesia is correct in his example. The result is a total probability for winning _any _ one of the 5 drawings.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Just rewatched this episode. Some speculation based on the previews:



Spoiler



It's definitely an arm with bruises at the wrist that's holding the gun to Caine's head. I noticed early in the episode when Sharon is in with the doctor and Adama they show a quick close-up of bruises on her wrists, so it could be either her or Gina. Now, I don't know how Sharon would get over to the Pegasus, but anything is possible. Odds are it's Gina.



Is it Friday yet?


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Oh, FRACK! I just remember I'll be renting a cabin all weekend! I won't be able to watch this until Sunday night or Monday! 

Frack frack frack

J


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

jschuur said:


> Even if there's a 90% chance that they can beat a base star, over time the more battles they engage in, the more likely it is something will go wrong.


Yep. Assuming they have a 90% change to win any single battle with a single deathstar, over time their chances of winning all of them go down. Even though each single combat still has a 90% chance of sucess.

Same idea as flipping a coin. Each flip has a 50/50 chance of heads or tails. (ignoring the possibility of landing on edge, and assuming a fair coin and fair coin flipper). Your chances of landing heads twice in a row are 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/4. A 1 in four chance. Three times in a row would be 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/6. A 1 in six chance.

For Galactica, a single fight would be a 9 in 10, 90% chance of winning.
two fights would be 8.1 in 10, 81% chance of winning both.
72.9% chance of winning three in a row.
65.6% chance of winning four in a row.
59.5% chance of winning five in a row.
53.1% chance of winning six in a row.
47.8% chance of winning seven in a row.

So Galactica's cumulative change of winning seven straight fights (each with a 90% chance) is less than the chance of winning a coin toss. Ouch. (There would be a 9.8% chance of winning 22 fights in a row...)

However this works in reverse as well. Having won the first fight they only have 6 left to win so they are back up to the 53.1% chance of winning those six.

Of course, this is just playing with math and totally ignores things like battle damage, loss of Vipers or crew, ammo avaliablility, crew fatigue, etc.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jwjody said:


> Oh, FRACK! I just remember I'll be renting a cabin all weekend! I won't be able to watch this until Sunday night or Monday!
> 
> Frack frack frack
> 
> J


Look on the bright side...it will then be just a few days until you can watch the next episode.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

SparkleMotion said:


> IOW, President does NOT outrank Admiral at this time and it's not as simple as merely relieving her of command.


So I wonder, who DOES outrank the Admiral? Is she not answerable to anyone? If she isn't, then there is no "sharing power" arrangement, it's a military dictatorship. They just haven't realized it yet.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Pralix said:


> I don't buy the premise that destroying the resurrection ship will cause the cylons to pause.
> 
> There are 2 types of cylons that we have seen. The human forms and the machine forms. I somehow don't see the machine forms (toasters & raiders) being transferred into other "bodies". The machine forms can go in indefinitely. They are unaware of their mortality. The human forms may slow down, but they aren't the "combat" types. They can only wage a limited war with the colonial fleet.


But it seems that the human form cylons are the ones that are running the show, and the toasters and raiders are merely the grunts. If the human form cylons now risk permanent death by engaging in prolonged combat without a resurrection ship in reserve, they may be less inclined to keep chasing the Galatica fleet. And since they are the ones seemingly in charge...


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

appleye1 said:


> So I wonder, who DOES outrank the Admiral? Is she not answerable to anyone? If she isn't, then there is no "sharing power" arrangement, it's a military dictatorship. They just haven't realized it yet.


I guess whoever has the biggest guns has the power.

I don't remember them ever giving real details on their "Constitution." The agreement between Adama and Roslyn...was that something done within the legal structure? If the military has the right to "take over" then why would there need to be an agreement at all? And in any case, why would Caine be bound by an agreement made between the President and an inferior officer?

But then again, shouldn't Caine answer to the President? Regardless of anyone's opinion, Laura is President by way of a chain of succession that is legitimate.

So who gets to decide when the military gets to take over, and under what conditions and for how long? What exactly are teh legal provisions for that?

Not that I expect any real answers. Like technical details, some things you just can't look too deeply into. Details are often casualties of the larger story...


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Don't forget that Galactica is / was short on Vipers, and is less powerful that Pegasus.
> 
> And even with Pegasus's larger and newer Viper force this plan still relies on decoying away the majority of the Cylon Raiders before the Pegasus and Galactica attack.
> 
> It doesn't conclusively show that Galactica on her own could take a single base star in a straight up fight. And even if she did, the battle damage and viper losses would seriously weaken her ability to defend the civilian ships in the future.


If whoever (on the show) claimed that 2 Battlestars could easily handle 2 Basestars was correct, I presume that was only with the Raiders (and Vipers) being otherwise engaged, so that it was just the 2 capital ships going against the other 2 capital ships each with only their weapons batteries to use in combat.

Also, Jonathon's point about the Galactica being short on Vipers and being an outdated model in comparison with the Pegasus is a good one, and is the obvious reason why Galatica has always retreated when confronted with a large Cylon force. When you are shorthanded and outgunned, best to run away from a fight - even one you can win, if doing so would severely damage your continued ability to fight. Here, they have an objective worth fighting for, so the risk is deemed worth it.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

appleye1 said:


> So I wonder, who DOES outrank the Admiral? Is she not answerable to anyone? If she isn't, then there is no "sharing power" arrangement, it's a military dictatorship. They just haven't realized it yet.


Its unclear. Barring a power sharing arrangement (which Caen shouldn't know about, because it shouldn't have been in Galactica's log) Caen should be the top of the military chain of command, and report to and take orders from the President (or possibly through someone on the council, depending on the exact setup. Anyway some civilian authority. I suppose that their military could report to their congress equivalent, and not to their president.)

However the President doesn't trust that Caen will follow the chain of command, and hasn't really tested this. She basically hasn't given Caen any orders (or at least not that we've seen). Probably because if she did give Caen and order and Caen refused it Galactica and Pegasus would almost certainly have to fight it out to in order to arrest Caen. The Admiral would be on guard after refusing to follow an order.
And the President doesn't want to risk damaging the only military defense the fleet has by forcing the issue out into the open. She decided it was safer to simply have Caen killed and presumably replaced with someone she trusts to obey the chain of command.

It's one of those "in theory" vs. "in practice" situations.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Another issue is that Roslyn is the President of the Twelve Colonies, which no longer exists. A legal argument could easily be made that the Colonial Government no longer exists, and that the field is wide open for any new government to take over. Neither Roslyn nor Adama wanted rule by might, so they agreed upon a pretense that the Colonial form of government more or less holds true. But not entirely--in addition to the agreement between Roslyn and Adama, there are many circumstances that render Colonial forms obsolete, like the absence of viable currency. The hard, cold fact--which Roslyn and Adama have mostly done a good job of ignoring--is that until there are elections, whoever has the biggest guns gets to say what goes. And even after the elections, they'll have to convince whoever has the biggest guns that they don't get to decide what goes...which is one reason why Caine has to die. She's a power-hungry psychopath, and I suspect there's no way she'll submit to ANYBODY'S authority.


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Another issue is that Roslyn is the President of the Twelve Colonies, which no longer exists. A legal argument could easily be made that the Colonial Government no longer exists, and that the field is wide open for any new government to take over. Neither Roslyn nor Adama wanted rule by might, so they agreed upon a pretense that the Colonial form of government more or less holds true. But not entirely--in addition to the agreement between Roslyn and Adama, there are many circumstances that render Colonial forms obsolete, like the absence of viable currency. The hard, cold fact--which Roslyn and Adama have mostly done a good job of ignoring--is that until there are elections, whoever has the biggest guns gets to say what goes. And even after the elections, they'll have to convince whoever has the biggest guns that they don't get to decide what goes...which is one reason why Caine has to die. She's a power-hungry psychopath, and I suspect there's no way she'll submit to ANYBODY'S authority.


Didn't they elect a new government in the first season? I think "Colonial Day" was the title. In theory even if Caine doesn't take Roslyn's orders, the Quorum could order her to stand down.


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> But it seems that the human form cylons are the ones that are running the show, and the toasters and raiders are merely the grunts. If the human form cylons now risk permanent death by engaging in prolonged combat without a resurrection ship in reserve, they may be less inclined to keep chasing the Galatica fleet. And since they are the ones seemingly in charge...


They may be running the show but they have an infinite supply of troopers. It is easy for most of them to sit back in relative safety while the "grunts" do all the heavy damage. At some point all 12 cylon models will be revealed and their "stealth" will be a moot point. They will only be able to operate from cylon "territory" with impunity.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Pralix said:


> They may be running the show but they have an infinite supply of troopers. It is easy for most of them to sit back in relative safety while the "grunts" do all the heavy damage. At some point all 12 cylon models will be revealed and their "stealth" will be a moot point. They will only be able to operate from cylon "territory" with impunity.


They may or may not have an infinite supply of troopers. We don't necessarily know that (although I would think it's a fairly safe assumption).

And while the human cylons don't typically do any of the heavy fighting, they *are* present on the Basestars and as such aren't completely removed from the combat arena. We also know is that the humanoid Cylons *do* fear permadeath (as evidenced by the reaction of the human Cylon model that Adama killed in the miniseries at the weapons depot) and as such, even the risk of permadeath by engaging in heavy combat between capital ships may make them reconsider the risk and stop following the Galactica fleet until they can get another resurrection ship up and running.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Pralix said:


> I don't buy the premise that destroying the resurrection ship will cause the cylons to pause.


 Me either, escaping the Cylons would be like the A-Team clearing their name or David Banner finding the cure for "Hulkism". 

Seriously though, if they think they are going to lose the Cylons by destroying the resurrection ship, they better be sure they are rid of Spylons...


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

Pralix said:


> Didn't they elect a new government in the first season? I think "Colonial Day" was the title. In theory even if Caine doesn't take Roslyn's orders, the Quorum could order her to stand down.


How exactly does anyone, the president, the quorum order Caine to step down. Do they ask her and if she refuses ask her again? Without the military agreeing to the arrangement the government is essentially meaningless.

I think we have gotten used to our own government and country of laws that we have in the USA. That only exists because there is buy in from the vast majority of the population and military. I lived in Ecuador in 1996 and 1997. One day the congress decided to declare the president insane and kick him out of power. At one moment there were 3 people claiming to lead Ecuador. The president, The vice president who claimed if the president was removed she should be in Power, and the president of congress. The next day the military powers decided to back Congress and almost immediately the President jumped in his private jet and flew to Panama. The vice president made an agreement to continue to be the vice president and essentially we saw a non-violent coup in less than a few days. The fact is the real power remains in the hands of those that can control the military power.

In the world of BSG this is especially true since it is virtually impossible to organize a revolution.


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> They may or may not have an infinite supply of troopers. We don't necessarily know that (although I would think it's a fairly safe assumption).
> 
> And while the human cylons don't typically do any of the heavy fighting, they *are* present on the Basestars and as such aren't completely removed from the combat arena. We also know is that the humanoid Cylons *do* fear permadeath (as evidenced by the reaction of the human Cylon model that Adama killed in the miniseries at the weapons depot) and as such, even the risk of permadeath by engaging in heavy combat between capital ships may make them reconsider the risk and stop following the Galactica fleet until they can get another resurrection ship up and running.


The chemicals it takes to produce an organic are plentiful. I doubt it takes years for the organic cylons ("humans" and raider "pilots") like cloning would to reach a mature age. Metals to replace the toasters and the shells of the raiders may be a bit more difficult to keep up with after a point. They probably have more capacity to make replacements than the current human survivors. I'm sure the cylons can build enough replacements to wipe out the humans if they wanted to. They wont destroy all the humans until they have enough genetic material to survive.

I don't think the cylons like the Boomer model in the basestar will grow much of a self aware personality like those that are in the field. I think of them as incomplete if they don't have a specified purpose. I can't see all the incomplete humlons transferring into new bodies like when the basestar was blown up in Season 1.


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## ovr8ted (Feb 27, 2005)

How about Richard Hatch or the flight deck civie guy on the Pegasus taking out Cain? Perhaps Hatch could overhear a plan and somehow decide if he could get in there first, he could take over the entire ship? I'm thinking this turns the Pegasus into more of a Klingon vessell!!!  

I've decided against watching any previews, which includes the beginning of the show :down:


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

PJO1966 said:


> Just rewatched this episode. Some speculation based on the previews:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Yeah its Gina. Look at the shirt. Its the same one Baltar(sp?) gave her.



Go Clock Go


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

One more thing to add. I really liked the way the vipers all turned to go after starbuck (At 8 minutes) I loved that shot.


One more thing to add. Why do they refer to Caine as Sir. When I was in the Army thats not how we refered to female officers


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

warrenevans said:


> One more thing to add. I really liked the way the vipers all turned to go after starbuck (At 8 minutes) I loved that shot.


Same here... that gave me chills... very cool shot.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

In all of the thread so far I haven't seen anyone speculating on who in Adama's command might be offed, even if he isn't? Caine gave orders to start with Adama, but I assume that the "Razors" will try and take out any and all that they can, should they fail to take out Adama.

Do you think any of the more prominent characters like Gaeta or Tigh will be killed? I kinda doubt it myself, but who knows.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

warrenevans said:


> One more thing to add. I really liked the way the vipers all turned to go after starbuck (At 8 minutes) I loved that shot.


Was that the one where all the vipers went from complete chaos to flying in formation? That was very cool. Once second they're all over the place and then all of a suddent they're all right where they should be.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

All of these comments about the President/Council ordering Cain to step down....of course she wouldn't! If the XO's stories are correct, and she's killed officers on the Pegasus and looted/abandoned civilian ships, clearly she has decided that SHE is the law.

If they did this, the best case scenario is that Cain laughs at them and the Pegasus leaves for parts unknown. Worst case, the Pegasus/Galactica war resumes, the Galactica destroyed, and the civilian fleet looted, THEN the Pegaus leaves.

Although clearly Cain wants the Galactica intact....just without Adama.


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## MassD (Sep 19, 2002)

Pralix said:


> I don't buy the premise that destroying the resurrection ship will cause the cylons to pause.


But the toasters are useless without the human cylons.

Though, the Raiders (which are bio-mechanical, remember?) may have a consciousness that we don't really know about. And they may not want to lose that consciousness for all we know. If they are reluctant to sacrifice a Raider without being able to dump it into another ship, THAT'S a different story.

And the toaster cylons may also be similar to the Raiders... part biological, part machine. We only saw their outside shell. They could have sorts of soft bits inside the armor.

In all three cases, there may be a presense that the Cylons are reluctant to snuff out forever. Considering that the cylons are all about religion and reincarnation and such... that may be enough to make them pause a bit.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

warrenevans said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I haven't rewatched the preview, but if this is true, and it can clearly be defined as Gina holding the gun, than I have almost no doubt that this is NOT the way Caine will die. I think it's nice piece of editing to make us think we've figured out the final scene of next weeks episode.


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## Cue-Ball (Oct 8, 2002)

I think that Starbuck will not shoot Caine. After the praise and promotion, there's no way she'll do it. She's not as loyal to Adama as many here think. If she were she never would have stolen the cylon ship and flown to Caprica. I also believe that the Pegasus XO will refuse to assassinate Adama. We'll end up with Starbuck on Caine's side and the XO on Adama's side. At some point Six will escape from Baltar and will shoot Caine, then herself, getting her wish of dying, but only after the resurrection ship has been destroyed.

In the end, I think the XO will become commander of Pegasus. He'll be sent back to see if anyone is left of the civilian ships that they plundered earlier. I also think that Roslyn will die this season, probably in the final ep. She HAS to die as it's stated in the prophecies that the person who leads the colonies to Kobol will die. They need to kill her off if for no other reason than to take the feeling of "safety" out of the show. Especially since they've already had one cliffhanger where a major character was shot multiple times, then survived. Too many of these miracles will wear thin fast and i think Rick knows it. He said as much in one podcast IIRC. If they port Roslyns brain over to a cylon body the show will have officially jumped the shark in my book.


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

This site contains what _may_ be _major_ spoilers for the rest of the season. (If you click, remember, you have been warned.)

This is what they have to say about some of the above and some random plot tidbits that look interesting. (Remember... spoilers! Don't look if you don't want to know.)

About Caine and the Pegasus:


Spoiler



Caine is shot by Gina. Starbuck speaks well of her at Caine's funeral. Adama is named admiral of the fleet by Roslin and so commands both the Galactica and the Pegasus. Eventually (after several episodes) Apollo is given command of the Pegasus.



About Roslin:


Spoiler



She is dying. Plans are being made to name Baltar president but she wants him to step down. Baltar figures out a way to use Boomer's baby (stem cells?) to temporarily halt or reverse Roslin cancer. She apparently survives at least the rest of the season



About characters dying:


Spoiler



It looks like Billy (remember him?) dies



About the resurrection ship:


Spoiler



It is destroyed and does cause the Cylons to back off. Major conflict moves to a peace movement within the fleet. Gina is involved and Baltar supports them (including giving them a bomb). Later, another Six and another Boomer appear under a flag of truce and say the Cylons will stop their attacks against the humans if the humans allow them to send missionaries into the fleet to spread their religion.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

You're killing me! I can never visit this particular epiode's thread again. Just in case I can't resist temptation!


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

warrenevans said:


> One more thing to add. Why do they refer to Caine as Sir. When I was in the Army thats not how we refered to female officers


All female officers in Fleet are referred to as Sir. Roslyn made note of it once to Adama as an "odd rule of military courtesy" (or something to that effect).


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## SparkleMotion (Feb 2, 2004)

tivogurl said:


> All female officers in Fleet are referred to as Sir. Roslyn made note of it once to Adama as an "odd rule of military courtesy" (or something to that effect).


IIRC, Captain Janeway (Star Trek: Voyager), in that show's first episode, noted that while Starfleet protocol afforded her the right to be called sir, she preferred the more quaint, traditional ma'am instead.

The concept is probably meant to afford the exact same amount of respect to any officer regardless of gender.


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## Cue-Ball (Oct 8, 2002)

I think I may have a problem. The weekend is finally here and the only thing I'm looking forward to is the new BSG episode tonight.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Cue-Ball said:


> I think I may have a problem. The weekend is finally here and the only thing I'm looking forward to is the new BSG episode tonight.


So the problem is that it isn't 10 o'clock yet. Right?


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

I have to wait until Sat. morning to wacth part 2. My wife is makeing me wait so that we can wacth it together


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## Cue-Ball (Oct 8, 2002)

We won't tell if you watch it without her, then pretend to be surprised when you see it "for the first time" on Saturday.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Cue-Ball said:


> We won't tell if you watch it without her, then pretend to be surprised when you see it "for the first time" on Saturday.


Just don't accidentally delete it after you watch it. that's a knee-jerk reaction for me when I've finished watching something. We'll be watching tonight, but being on the west coast, we get it at 7pm.


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

well I could watch it. cause I have seen part one like ten times already.


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

I love the drums during the dog fight!!!!!!


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## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2002)

Bump for those of us watching for the first time in HD... wow.. yet another 'to be continued'!


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