# TiVo's Contract with GraceNote (TMS) ends May 14th



## SomeRandomIdiot

TiVo's Contract with GraceNote (TMS) ends May 14th.

The original 5 year agreement went into effect May 14,2007 and TiVo renewed for an additional 4 year term, taking the contract to May 14, 2016.


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## JoeKustra

Zap2it has changed their copyright to Gracenote. TiVo (Roamio) still says TMS.


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## Dan203

If they're going to switch to Rovi (buyout or not) now would be the time.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

Dan203 said:


> If they're going to switch to Rovi (buyout or not) now would be the time.


That is what struck me.

One wonders with all the Rovi/Sale talk if Gracenote would give them a 1 year extension.

If I were at Gracenote, I sure would not.


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## Dan203

For all we know they might have been planning for this switch over for a long time and are ready to flip the switch as soon as the contract is up.


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## DevdogAZ

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> That is what struck me.
> 
> One wonders with all the Rovi/Sale talk if Gracenote would give them a 1 year extension.
> 
> *If I were at Gracenote, I sure would not.*


I would think just the opposite. If you have a customer that's certainly going to leave you at some point in the future, but they're wanting to stay with you in the near term, then lock them up for as long as they'll agree to be locked up. If Gracenote's alternatives are to lose all revenue from TiVo after May, or get another year's worth of revenue, then it's a no-brainer to get another year.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

DevdogAZ said:


> I would think just the opposite. If you have a customer that's certainly going to leave you at some point in the future, but they're wanting to stay with you in the near term, then lock them up for as long as they'll agree to be locked up. If Gracenote's alternatives are to lose all revenue from TiVo after May, or get another year's worth of revenue, then it's a no-brainer to get another year.


Clearly you don't negotiate.

It's a no brainer to say 4 year minimum....no outs - take it or leave it.

TiVo is a minor player in Gracenote's revenue.

Or then again, I guess you could always sell them a 4 year extension - at the same price as the 1 year extension.

TiVo may not be in a position to turn it down - but quite frankly, I believe they could use their $100M R&D budget along with Rovi coders to adapt the guide in several weeks if need be.

Remember @home tried a similar tactic and MSOs were able to put in complete ISP Providers to a much larger base in several weeks.

A Guide Adaptation would be much easier.


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## jth tv

I hope it does not require any action by me if they switch, because I'll be out RV'ng for 2+ months starting just about then. Last time, my Roamio Basic with antenna worked Perfectly unattended, didn't miss anything.


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## lpwcomp

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Clearly you don't negotiate.
> 
> It's a no brainer to say 4 year minimum....no outs - take it or leave it.
> 
> TiVo is a minor player in Gracenote's revenue.
> 
> Or then again, I guess you could always sell them a 4 year extension - at the same price as the 1 year extension.
> 
> TiVo may not be in a position to turn it down - but quite frankly, I believe they could use their $100M R&D budget along with Rovi coders to adapt the guide in several weeks if need be.
> 
> Remember @home tried a similar tactic and MSOs were able to put in complete ISP Providers to a much larger base in several weeks.
> 
> A Guide Adaptation would be much easier.


Changing program information providers would be far more difficult than you think. The seriesIds and programIds on which TiVo scheduling is totally dependent are assigned _*by TMS*_.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

lpwcomp said:


> Changing program information providers would be far more difficult than you think. The seriesIds and programIds on which TiVo scheduling is totally dependent are assigned _*by TMS*_.


Again, it can be done....even if starting same day....then 1 days out....2 days out etc.

Much more difficult feats have been accomplished with far little effort.


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## lpwcomp

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Again, it can be done....even if starting same day....then 1 days out....2 days out etc.
> 
> Much more difficult feats have been accomplished with far little effort.


You just don't get it. The seriesIds and programIds are available _*ONLY FROM TMS*_.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

lpwcomp said:


> You just don't get it. The seriesIds and programIds are available _*ONLY FROM TMS*_.


I do get it. RoVi also has a service that can be modified for TiVo.

Banks merge. Account numbers get changed and merged. And the world does not end.

RoVi can assign any serial number or set of numbers to a Series or a Program that they can easily put in their database for the Series and Program.

In fact, unless something in TiVo's agreement with TMS prevents it, RoVi could use the same SerialIDs and ProgramIDs for programs up to this point in 2 new data fields in the RoVi Database, which TiVo would then pull from.

It can be done - again, all they need to do is start with current day and then work forward.


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## TonyD79

lpwcomp said:


> You just don't get it. The seriesIds and programIds are available ONLY FROM TMS.


Are you sure rovi doesn't have something analogous? Looking at their products it looks like they would. The quality of the data and consistency may be a different issue.


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## mrizzo80

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> I do get it. RoVi also has a service that can be modified for TiVo.
> 
> Banks merge. Account numbers get changed and merged. And the world does not end.
> 
> RoVi can assign any serial number or set of numbers to a Series or a Program that they can easily put in their database for the Series and Program.
> 
> In fact, unless something in TiVo's agreement with TMS prevents it, RoVi could use the same SerialIDs and ProgramIDs for programs up to this point in 2 new data fields in the RoVi Database, which TiVo would then pull from.
> 
> It can be done - again, all they need to do is start with current day and then work forward.


Yes, it can be done. But unless you are familiar with TiVo's infrastructure, you can't make the statements you are making.

If you were a programmer, you'd know this.


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## JoeKustra

It's Rovi, not RoVi.


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## lpwcomp

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> I do get it. RoVi also has a service that can be modified for TiVo.


No, it can't.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Banks merge. Account numbers get changed and merged. And the world does not end.


It's way more complicated than simply changing an account number.


SomeRandomIdiot said:


> RoVi can assign any serial number or set of numbers to a Series or a Program that they can easily put in their database for the Series and Program.


All of the existing SPs/1Ps, ToDo List entries and data for recordings would have to be modified on every TiVo still in service.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> In fact, unless something in TiVo's agreement with TMS prevents it, RoVi could use the same SerialIDs and ProgramIDs for programs up to this point in 2 new data fields in the RoVi Database, which TiVo would then pull from.


They could not continue to use the data if there is no agreement with TMS.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> It can be done - again, all they need to do is start with current day and then work forward.


No, it can't.


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## TonyD79

lpwcomp said:


> All of the existing SPs/1Ps, ToDo List entries and data for recordings would have to be modified on every TiVo still in service.


That is far from Impossible. Actually that is a pretty simple search and replace.


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## lpwcomp

TonyD79 said:


> That is far from Impossible. Actually that is a pretty simple search and replace.


While that part of the process may be simple, deploying it to and executing it on every TiVo still in service is not.


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## DevdogAZ

I would think it would be relatively simple (time consuming, but not complicated) to create a new database where SeriesID X maps to NewSeriesID Y and EpisodeID AA maps to NewEpisodeID BB. Once the entire database is built, then it's it's pushed to all existing TiVo boxes via a firmware upgrade and existing SPs/1Ps should continue to work exactly like they always have.

What am I missing?


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## lpwcomp

DevdogAZ said:


> I would think it would be relatively simple (time consuming, but not complicated) to create a new database where SeriesID X maps to NewSeriesID Y and EpisodeID AA maps to NewEpisodeID BB. Once the entire database is built, then it's it's pushed to all existing TiVo boxes via a firmware upgrade and existing SPs/1Ps should continue to work exactly like they always have.
> 
> What am I missing?


What you're missing is the fact that it would be required on every TiVo model that has even one instance still in service. Not to mention the CPU cycles and I/O that would be necessary. No TiVo has a lot of either just lying around.

There are a lot of solutions that are easy to describe. Executing them is a b***h.


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## TonyD79

lpwcomp said:


> While that part of the process may be simple, deploying it to and executing it on every TiVo still in service is not.


Why? Seems far less difficult than software upgrades.


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## DevdogAZ

lpwcomp said:


> What you're missing is the fact that it would be required on every TiVo model that has even one instance still in service. Not to mention the CPU cycles and I/O that would be necessary. No TiVo has a lot of either just lying around.
> 
> There are a lot of solutions that are easy to describe. Executing them is a b***h.


Isn't that already required every time TiVo pushes a new firmware upgrade? Why would this new upgrade be any different?


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## Jed1

JoeKustra said:


> It's Rovi, not RoVi.


I reached out to one of my old contacts at Gemstar, now Rovi, and it looks like I may get our listings for our area updated. One good thing with TV Guide listings is they have all the logos for the channels and their listings were always correct.
Everybody should realize that Tribune has exited bankruptcy and is still under the control of their creditors. Maybe this would be a smart time for TiVo to make the change. TMS has lost a good portion of their clients since the bankruptcy.
http://www.gracenote.com/on-entertainment-tv-listings-product-page/
They only have 11 clients left.

TV Guide also has ID numbers for all their shows. My very first TV with TVGOS embedded used program ID's to record to a VCR so this can easily by incorporated with TiVo.


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## lpwcomp

TonyD79 said:


> Why? Seems far less difficult than software upgrades.


And they don't do s/w upgrades on anything older than a Series 4. Yes, there have been two recent exceptions - the mod to enable H.264 recording on TiVo HD and HDXL and the fixing of the cookie problem but even that wasn't deployed to Series 1 TiVos as they don't support transfers.


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## TonyD79

lpwcomp said:


> And they don't do s/w upgrades on anything older than a Series 4. Yes, there have been two recent exceptions - the mod to enable H.264 recording on TiVo HD and HDXL and the fixing of the cookie problem but even that wasn't deployed to Series 1 TiVos as they don't support transfers.


That is a business decision, not a technical one. If they are forced to change the index numbers it would be a stay in business decision. Lots of things get done when you are standing on a burning platform.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

lpwcomp said:


> And they don't do s/w upgrades on anything older than a Series 4. Yes, there have been two recent exceptions - the mod to enable H.264 recording on TiVo HD and HDXL and the fixing of the cookie problem but even that wasn't deployed to Series 1 TiVos as they don't support transfers.


Again, just as my SS number is used with IRS, Social Security, Drivers License, Employer, Banking, Doctor, Insurance and Gillion other services, Tribune Series 1234567 = Survivor can also be put in the Ro*V*i (planning for the future) database....the same with a Program Number.

Again, I see nothing in the TMS contract that would prevent them from doing this.

One simply adds these 2 numbers....the series and program numbers TMS/Gracenote already uses up to 5/1/2016 and then makes up their own numbers after that.

That way all previous TiVos would continue to operate with the old numbers cross-referenced.


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## lpwcomp

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Again, just as my SS number is used with IRS, Social Security, Drivers License, Employer, Banking, Doctor, Insurance and Gillion other services, Tribune Series 1234567 = Survivor can also be put in the Ro*V*i (planning for the future) database....the same with a Program Number.
> 
> Again, I see nothing in the TMS contract that would prevent them from doing this.
> 
> One simply adds these 2 numbers....the series and program numbers TMS/Gracenote already uses up to 5/1/2016 and then makes up their own numbers after that.
> 
> That way all previous TiVos would continue to operate with the old numbers cross-referenced.


You have no idea what you are talking about.


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## TonyD79

He's not far off. Nothing stops TiVo from adding another field today along side the ID from TMS. make it a rovi code. Build up the rovi data on the systems then issue an update to use the rovi id when the time comes rather than the TMS one. 

This would take some time and would require and extension from TMS but it is doable. And doesn't take much resource at all on the TiVo side.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

TonyD79 said:


> He's not far off. Nothing stops TiVo from adding another field today along side the ID from TMS. make it a rovi code. Build up the rovi data on the systems then issue an update to use the rovi id when the time comes rather than the TMS one.
> 
> This would take some time and would require and extension from TMS but it is doable. And doesn't take much resource at all on the TiVo side.


Well, unfortunately I believe this section in the 2007 Agreement would pose a problem with that solution - as RoVi is clearly a TiVo competitor.

3. LICENSE RESTRICTIONS.
(a) TiVo will not provide TMS Unique IDs or an entire set of any individual TMS Data Product, TMS Partner Data, or New Development Product to TiVo Promotional Partners, TiVo Subscribers, TiVo Licensees, TiVo Commercial Service recipients, or TMS Competitors. For purposes of this Agreement, entire set means substantially all of the contents of any TMS Data Product, TMS Partner Data, or New Development Product as defined in the corresponding data specification. By way of illustration of what entire set means, TiVo may..

But again, I still believe a system can be built from scratch in 30 days IF needed.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

Jed1 said:


> I reached out to one of my old contacts at Gemstar, now Rovi, and it looks like I may get our listings for our area updated. One good thing with TV Guide listings is they have all the logos for the channels and their listings were always correct.
> Everybody should realize that Tribune has exited bankruptcy and is still under the control of their creditors. Maybe this would be a smart time for TiVo to make the change. TMS has lost a good portion of their clients since the bankruptcy.
> http://www.gracenote.com/on-entertainment-tv-listings-product-page/
> They only have 11 clients left.
> 
> TV Guide also has ID numbers for all their shows. My very first TV with TVGOS embedded used program ID's to record to a VCR so this can easily by incorporated with TiVo.


No, those are only the Clients they use as an example to show how the product is being used.

Gracenote has FAR MORE than those 11 Clients.


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## lpwcomp

TonyD79 said:


> He's not far off. Nothing stops TiVo from adding another field today along side the ID from TMS. make it a rovi code. Build up the rovi data on the systems then issue an update to use the rovi id when the time comes rather than the TMS one.
> 
> This would take some time and would require and extension from TMS but it is doable. And doesn't take much resource at all on the TiVo side.


It would require a mod to every TiVo's s/w and every TiVo's db.

Rovi would have to assign a "rovi code" to every series/episode, movie, and one off show that's ever been on TV AND know what the TMS assigned ID's are.

This doesn't even count the impact on people like me who move a lot of recordings off to the PC and expect the metadata to be restored when I transfer it back.

Even it were as simple as you think, why on earth would TMS give them a temporary extension?


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## lpwcomp

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> But again, I still believe a system can be built from scratch in 30 days IF needed.


I assume you base that on your vast experience as a s/w engineer and database manager.


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## tampa8

lpwcomp said:


> .....
> Rovi would have to assign a "rovi code" to every series/episode, movie, and one off show that's ever been on TV AND know what the TMS assigned ID's are.


That's what I was thinking, what happens to the indexing of all the past material. That's to me is more of the sticking point.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

lpwcomp said:


> I assume you base that on your vast experience as a s/w engineer and database manager.


As One of the clients I work with tracks EVERY song, EVERY Commercial, EVERY Program in Real Time on EVERY TV, CABLE AND RADIO STATION in the USA, I assure you that is much larger a database than the GraceNote/TMS Database.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

tampa8 said:


> That's what I was thinking, what happens to the indexing of all the past material. That's to me is more of the sticking point.





lpwcomp said:


> It would require a mod to every TiVo's s/w and every TiVo's
> 
> This doesn't even count the impact on people like me who move a lot of recordings off to the PC and expect the metadata to be restored when I transfer it back.
> 
> Even it were as simple as you think, why on earth would TMS give them a temporary extension?


There is nothing in the TiVo Agreement that it has to keep all your past recordings compatible with new recordings.

And you better re read as I have mantained GraceNote would not give TiVo a temporary extension, although the 2014 GraceNote Art License does offer some possible leeway, but most likely it would be argued that does not apply to the TMS signed contract.


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## CoxInPHX

Source material: (I was going to ask, but found instead)
http://investor.tivo.com/mobile.vie...ERVNDPVNFQ1RJT05fUEFHRSZleHA9JnN1YnNpZD01Nw==



> Tribune is the sole supplier of the program guide data for the TiVo service. Tribune Media Services, Inc., (Tribune), is the current sole supplier of program guide data for the TiVo service. Our current Television Listings Data Agreement with Tribune originally became effective on May 14, 2007 and had an initial term of five years which TiVo has renewed for four additional years. The agreement provides each party with a termination right if the other party becomes controlled by certain third parties. If Tribune breaches its obligation to provide us with data, rejects the agreement or otherwise fails to perform its obligations under our agreement, we would be unable to provide certain aspects of the TiVo service to our customers until we are able to incorporate an alternate source of guide data. While we have a license to an alternative sources of guide data, we are not currently using it and there would be significant cost and delay involved in integrating such an alternative source of guide data should we do so in the future. Depending upon the amount of notice we receive of such a breach or rejection of our agreement, and the amount of development work required by us to incorporate an alternate source of guide data, we may be subject to a period of time in which we are unable to provide the TiVo service to our customers and distribution partners. In such an event, our business would be harmed.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

CoxInPHX said:


> Tribune is the sole supplier of the program guide data for the TiVo service. Tribune Media Services, Inc., (Tribune), is the current sole supplier of program guide data for the TiVo service. Our current Television Listings Data Agreement with Tribune originally became effective on May 14, 2007 and had an initial term of five years which TiVo has renewed for four additional years. *The agreement provides each party with a termination right if the other party becomes controlled by certain third parties. I*f Tribune breaches its obligation to provide us with data, rejects the agreement or otherwise fails to perform its obligations under our agreement, we would be unable to provide certain aspects of the TiVo service to our customers until we are able to incorporate an alternate source of guide data. *While we have a license to an alternative sources of guide data, we are not currently using it *and there would be significant cost and delay involved in integrating such an alternative source of guide data should we do so in the future. Depending upon the amount of notice we receive of such a breach or rejection of our agreement, and the amount of development work required by us to incorporate an alternate source of guide data, we may be subject to a period of time in which we are unable to provide the TiVo service to our customers and distribution partners. In such an event, our business would be harmed.


Old Info from 2015.

Note the change in the latest 10K released last week (underlined) and of interest in Bold:

Gracenote (formerly known as Tribune Media Services, Inc.) is the sole supplier of the program guide data for the TiVo service. Gracenote, is the current sole supplier of program guide data for the TiVo service. Our current Television Listings Data Agreement with Gracenote originally became effective on May 14, 2007 and had an initial term of five years which TiVo has renewed for four additional years, and will expire on May 14, 2016. If we are unable to renew our agreement with Gracenote on terms acceptable to TiVo, our business could be harmed. *The agreement provides each party with a termination right if the other party becomes controlled by certain third parties.* If Gracenote breaches its obligation to provide us with data, rejects the agreement or otherwise fails to perform its obligations under our agreement, we would be unable to provide *certain aspects* of the TiVo service to our customers until we are able to incorporate an alternate source of guide data. *We currently do not use any alternative television guide data nor have a license to use any alternative guide data.* If we were forced to seek an alternative provider of television guide data, there would be significant cost and delay involved in integrating such an alternative source of guide data should we do so in the future. Depending upon the amount of notice we receive of such a breach or rejection of our agreement or notice that we will be unable to renew our agreement by the time it expires, and the amount of development work required by us to incorporate an alternate source of guide data, we may be subject to a period of time in which we are unable to provide the TiVo service to our customers and distribution partners. In such an event, our business would be harmed.

Not a hard stretch to see how the conversations with RoVi came about.....while discussing the continuing use for data services they did not use over the last 90 days.


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## mdavej

Rovi has a proven track record of botching their clients' transition from Gracenote. WMC just did it, and it was a complete disaster. The depth and quality of data from Rovi simply does not exist. It's like saying transitioning from iOS to DOS would be seamless. It won't. Rovi has a very poor quality product compared to Gracenote. You get what you pay for.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

mdavej said:


> Rovi has a proven track record of botching their clients' transition from Gracenote. WMC just did it, and it was a complete disaster. The depth and quality of data from Rovi simply does not exist. It's like saying transitioning from iOS to DOS would be seamless. It won't. Rovi has a very poor quality product compared to Gracenote. You get what you pay for.


But as RoVi as the acquirer, I am sure they think their S don't stink.


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## jth tv

How does it work ? Where does the scheduling data come from ? Does each station publish its own ? Do they email it or post it someplace or subscribe to some software ? It seems pretty haphazard at times.

Currently KCET (PBS) has been showing coming attractions for "Shetland", Sunday at 9 but TiVo schedule shows "Movie", no description. A lot of work goes into producing a show, but then the station just kind lazes out.


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## CoxInPHX

jth tv said:


> Currently KCET (PBS) has been showing coming attractions for "Shetland", Sunday at 9 but TiVo schedule shows "Movie", no description. A lot of work goes into producing a show, but then the station just kind lazes out.


PBS schedules and content vary greatly depending on market.
Shetland is not scheduled for the PBS station in Phoenix, KAET

For the Los Angeles area, KCET (PBS):
Gracenote/TiVo/TMS
http://tvschedule.zap2it.com/tv/shetland/EP01996710?aid=tvschedule

Rovi/TVGuide
http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/shetland/tv-listings/536804/


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## jcthorne

lpwcomp said:


> Changing program information providers would be far more difficult than you think. The seriesIds and programIds on which TiVo scheduling is totally dependent are assigned _*by TMS*_.


This is also the basis for the entire OnePass back end. As well as the enabling tech for Tivo's universal search.

While Rovi may have program guide data, they do not have the media database that Gracenote has to provide the search data needed to make these features work.

I do not think Tivo CAN switch from Gracenote to Rovi, at least not completely.

Then there may be the possibility that Gracenote will have no interest in selling the use of their data to their competitor (Rovi) and may simply say NO. In which case, Tivo statement that their business will be harmed is an understatement. It will end Tivo as we know it. Tivo would not be able to fulfill its current MSO obligations nor retail subscriber ones.


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## lpwcomp

TiVo says it would be nearly impossible to change program information providers. SomeRandomIdiot insists they could switch to Rovi data in 30 days. So either he thinks that TiVo didn't know about the Rovi data or he knows better than TiVo what would be required. Both are ludicrous.


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## TonyD79

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Well, unfortunately I believe this section in the 2007 Agreement would pose a problem with that solution - as RoVi is clearly a TiVo competitor. 3. LICENSE RESTRICTIONS. (a) TiVo will not provide TMS Unique IDs or an entire set of any individual TMS Data Product, TMS Partner Data, or New Development Product to TiVo Promotional Partners, TiVo Subscribers, TiVo Licensees, TiVo Commercial Service recipients, or TMS Competitors. For purposes of this Agreement, &#147;entire set&#148; means substantially all of the contents of any TMS Data Product, TMS Partner Data, or New Development Product as defined in the corresponding data specification. By way of illustration of what &#147;entire set&#148; means, TiVo may.. But again, I still believe a system can be built from scratch in 30 days IF needed.


That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying TiVo buys data from both (or keeps buying from TMS after a merger) and puts both in during a transition period. When done, they update the software to use the rovi data rather than the TMS.


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## TonyD79

lpwcomp said:


> It would require a mod to every TiVo's s/w and every TiVo's db. Rovi would have to assign a "rovi code" to every series/episode, movie, and one off show that's ever been on TV AND know what the TMS assigned ID's are. This doesn't even count the impact on people like me who move a lot of recordings off to the PC and expect the metadata to be restored when I transfer it back. Even it were as simple as you think, why on earth would TMS give them a temporary extension?


Geez. We are talking about a system that does advanced Dvr actions and suggestions and has logic for new versus old programs yet you think it is beyond capability to switch a database field? Really?

As for an extension, it is money. They would get paid. Business doesn't treat a future break like a love affair. They will continue to sell. And attempt to convince the TiVo arm of a merged company that they are better and try to sell them beyond the next couple years. I see that on a regular basis. Any company that says "you aren't going to buy from me in two years so I won't sell to you now" doesn't stay in business long.


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## jth tv

As my boss used to say, a database is a database, is a database. They are pretty much all the same thing and an expert can be hired to use/fix/modify it. Databases are built for that. I've met a few genius's who probably get something usable very quickly. But I've met plenty who would say they could but are all just talk.

Hire the best.


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## jcthorne

TonyD79 said:


> That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying TiVo buys data from both (or keeps buying from TMS after a merger) and puts both in during a transition period. When done, they update the software to use the rovi data rather than the TMS.


You are missing the point. The ProgramID that tivo uses is the Gracenote identifier for the video. Be it a movie, tv episode ect. It is also the basis for finding the same content in ALL of tivo's universal search results partners. IE its what lets Tivo find and play an episode on Amazon, Hulu, or Netflix. They ALL use the Gracenote id numbers.

Tivo has no choice but to pay for the use of the gracenote data. As Gracenote knows this they will likely ask a significant increase from the current rates Tivo is paying or decline altogether if Rovi buys them.

Its unlikely that Rovi could replicate this. Its not just the data, its the cross reference to the Gracenote ID to find the content in other partner systems. Without licence, Tivo and Rovi CANNOT use the numbers, even as a cross reference. They are OWNED by Gracenote.

At the least, without gracenote, onepass and universal search cease to function and only future TV shows work for guide data. The partner apps would still work stand alone but would no longer be integrated. IE END OF TIVO.


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## jcthorne

jth tv said:


> As my boss used to say, a database is a database, is a database. They are pretty much all the same thing and an expert can be hired to use/fix/modify it. Databases are built for that. I've met a few genius's who probably get something usable very quickly. But I've met plenty who would say they could but are all just talk.
> 
> Hire the best.


Except that the data contained in the Gracenote database is copyrighted and owned by Gracenote. You cannot use the programId numbers as reference to content without a licence. That would include any cross reference to new ID numbers.

Rovi would have to completely build its own database AND convince all the content partners to use it. You cannot ask Netflix for a show based on a Rovi ID number. ONLY via a Gracenote ID number. Same is true for Amazon and Hulu that also use the same numbers.


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## jth tv

jcthorne said:


> ...
> You cannot ask Netflix for a show based on a Rovi ID number. ONLY via a Gracenote ID number. Same is true for Amazon and Hulu that also use the same numbers.


Are you saying Netflix and Amazon and Hulu are Gracenote customers and they use Gracenote ID's ?

I didn't expect that. Well, then yeah, that is pretty bad.

I was thinking more about the DVR part, scheduling shows to be recorded. It is still unclear to me how that works, who/how stations report the data to be distributed.


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## lpwcomp

TonyD79 said:


> Geez. We are talking about a system that does advanced Dvr actions and suggestions and has logic for new versus old programs yet you think it is beyond capability to switch a database field? Really?
> 
> As for an extension, it is money. They would get paid. Business doesn't treat a future break like a love affair. They will continue to sell. And attempt to convince the TiVo arm of a merged company that they are better and try to sell them beyond the next couple years. I see that on a regular basis. Any company that says "you aren't going to buy from me in two years so I won't sell to you now" doesn't stay in business long.


As has been pointed out by others _*including TiVo*_, there's way more involved than simply switching a db field.


----------



## jth tv

lpwcomp said:


> As has been pointed out by others _*including TiVo*_, there's way more involved than simply switching a db field.


But would people be all that upset if only the scheduling the DVR part worked ? I don't use suggestions and don't use Tivo to search Netflix, I use Netflix to search Netflix.


----------



## lpwcomp

jth tv said:


> Are you saying Netflix and Amazon and Hulu are Gracenote customers and they use Gracenote ID's ?
> 
> I didn't expect that. Well, then yeah, that pretty bad.
> 
> I was thinking more about the DVR part, scheduling shows to be recorded. It is still unclear to me how that works, who/how stations report the data to be distributed.


Schedule data comes from each station. It has to. How is unknown. For networks affiliates including things like MeTV, they might just report local alterations, but I have no idea.

If there are schedule errors, you might consider contacting the station and/or Gracenote/TMS (via zap2it).


----------



## lpwcomp

jth tv said:


> But would people be all that upset if only the scheduling the DVR part worked ? I don't use suggestions and don't use Tivo to search Netflix, I use Netflix to search Netflix.


Well, TiVo seems to think that losing access to the Gracenote data would have a severe impact on their business. It's not just searches. No more integrated groups with a combination of recordings and streamable episodes.

Even keeping scheduling working involves more that altering a db field.


----------



## mdavej

Just check out this thread at TheGreenButton if you don't believe how bad Rovi data really is: http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=9026

There is no amount of Tivo engineering magic that can fix "garbage in - garbage out".

Here's the short list:
- Missing ratings, descriptions, genres, cover art
- Cover art associated with the wrong program
- Missing year made
- Missing upcoming episodes
- Multipart series are missing episode names (only have numbers)
- Missing episode specific data (only generic series descriptions are used)
- Descriptions have less than half the info Gracenote had
- Many channel lineups throughout the nation are missing entirely
- Some existing recording's meta data gets overwritten with data from a completely different program
- Often marks new episodes as repeats and repeats as new
- Movies are often missing star rating, year, director, description, review, parental rating

You may be tempted to think that these are only WMC issues. But the guide is occasionally right, which means the mapping is correct. So the issues come back to quality. Most of the above has not been fixed in the 8 months since WMC switched from Gracenote to Rovi. In fact, users have found a way to switch back to Gracenote and are doing so in droves. Unfortunately, Tivo users won't have that option. We are screwed.


----------



## TonyD79

mdavej said:


> Just check out this thread at TheGreenButton if you don't believe how bad Rovi data really is: http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=9026 There is no amount of Tivo engineering magic that can fix "garbage in - garbage out". Here's the short list: - Missing ratings, descriptions, genres, cover art - Cover art associated with the wrong program - Missing year made - Missing upcoming episodes - Multipart series are missing episode names (only have numbers) - Missing episode specific data (only generic series descriptions are used) - Descriptions have less than half the info Gracenote had - Many channel lineups throughout the nation are missing entirely - Some existing recording's meta data gets overwritten with data from a completely different program - Often marks new episodes as repeats and repeats as new - Movies are often missing star rating, year, director, description, review, parental rating You may be tempted to think that these are only WMC issues. But the guide is occasionally right, which means the mapping is correct. So the issues come back to quality. Most of the above has not been fixed in the 8 months since WMC switched from Gracenote to Rovi. In fact, users have found a way to switch back to Gracenote and are doing so in droves. Unfortunately, Tivo users won't have that option. We are screwed.


This is the bigger issue. All others can be resolved.


----------



## BobCamp1

FIOS switched guide data providers from FYI to Tribune in 2013. For the most part, it was seamless. I didn't have to do anything. A few people had to redo a season pass or two.

It certainly is possible, because it's already been done before. Those who say otherwise are just kidding themselves. Of course Tivo isn't going to say anything until the merger is complete, and any previous statements they have made are worthless at this point. 

The real concern is: would they save any money switching providers? I don't think Gracenote would jack up the price just to spite Rovi, and Tivo doesn't want to spend money changing from a provider they're happy with. But Tivo probably doesn't want to enter another four-year contract at this point unless they get permission from their future parent company. My guess is it will be a year at a time, which will cost Tivo a little more in the short run but keep their options open.


----------



## rainwater

It is a complicated issue for sure. Here are my thoughts:
1) TiVo would never update the TiVos to work with Rovi data. Instead, the conversion would happen on their end so that TiVo's see the data the same as before. Otherwise, it is impossible to update every single TiVo in existence. 

2) My guess is it would take 6-12 months of engineering to update their backend to work with Rovi data. It is more than updating series ids. The data TiVo gets includes a lot of other information that is linked to that data (actors, genres, categories, etc). Currently, TiVo doesn't just get Gracenote data and send it to users. They are already performing data manipulation on that data. This engineering has been perfected over the last 10 years. To think they could just switch to Rovi would be a simple task is severely misinformed. 

3) The OnePass system integrates 3rd party apps (Netflix, HBO, etc). How TiVo gets and integrates that data is not known by anyone on this forum. So anyone acting like they know how easy or hard it will be to integrate Rovi data with 3rd party apps (using OnePass) just speculating based on no facts.


----------



## TonyD79

BobCamp1 said:


> FIOS switched guide data providers from FYI to Tribune in 2013. For the most part, it was seamless. I didn't have to do anything. A few people had to redo a season pass or two. It certainly is possible, because it's already been done before. Those who say otherwise are just kidding themselves. Of course Tivo isn't going to say anything until the merger is complete, and any previous statements they have made are worthless at this point. The real concern is: would they save any money switching providers? I don't think Gracenote would jack up the price just to spite Rovi, and Tivo doesn't want to spend money changing from a provider they're happy with. But Tivo probably doesn't want to enter another four-year contract at this point unless they get permission from their future parent company. My guess is it will be a year at a time, which will cost Tivo a little more in the short run but keep their options open.


Getting permission from their future parent is not legally allowed at this point. TiVo has to act independently as a corporation now.


----------



## TonyD79

rainwater said:


> It is a complicated issue for sure. Here are my thoughts: 1) TiVo would never update the TiVos to work with Rovi data. Instead, the conversion would happen on their end so that TiVo's see the data the same as before. Otherwise, it is impossible to update every single TiVo in existence. 2) My guess is it would take 6-12 months of engineering to update their backend to work with Rovi data. It is more than updating series ids. The data TiVo gets includes a lot of other information that is linked to that data (actors, genres, categories, etc). Currently, TiVo doesn't just get Gracenote data and send it to users. They are already performing data manipulation on that data. This engineering has been perfected over the last 10 years. To think they could just switch to Rovi would be a simple task is severely misinformed. 3) The OnePass system integrates 3rd party apps (Netflix, HBO, etc). How TiVo gets and integrates that data is not known by anyone on this forum. So anyone acting like they know how easy or hard it will be to integrate Rovi data with 3rd party apps (using OnePass) just speculating based on no facts.


They do far less than you think. They used to massage the data years ago but less now other than fit it into the right buckets.

As for the third parties. If they use TMS tags, they can still be used to point to the third party data. TiVo would need a cross reference system. The ID tags for Netflix are like their part number. I can't imagine TMS would have any recourse for a look into Netflix using a tag Netflix has paid for.


----------



## trip1eX

I regularly get progams without proper air dates, old episodes marked as new and the wrong show description as it is. SEems like the song will remain the same.


----------



## jcthorne

rainwater said:


> It is a complicated issue for sure. Here are my thoughts:
> 1) TiVo would never update the TiVos to work with Rovi data. Instead, the conversion would happen on their end so that TiVo's see the data the same as before. Otherwise, it is impossible to update every single TiVo in existence.
> 
> 2) My guess is it would take 6-12 months of engineering to update their backend to work with Rovi data. It is more than updating series ids. The data TiVo gets includes a lot of other information that is linked to that data (actors, genres, categories, etc). Currently, TiVo doesn't just get Gracenote data and send it to users. They are already performing data manipulation on that data. This engineering has been perfected over the last 10 years. To think they could just switch to Rovi would be a simple task is severely misinformed.
> 
> 3) The OnePass system integrates 3rd party apps (Netflix, HBO, etc). How TiVo gets and integrates that data is not known by anyone on this forum. So anyone acting like they know how easy or hard it will be to integrate Rovi data with 3rd party apps (using OnePass) just speculating based on no facts.


Lets just say I disagree. All you have to do is look at the RPC data for a onepass listing or the data returned for a universal search. The programId number is used to reference the content on the various services. The lack of that data is what keeps some services (like Plex) out of universal search and one pass integration.


----------



## rainwater

jcthorne said:


> Lets just say I disagree. All you have to do is look at the RPC data for a onepass listing or the data returned for a universal search. The programId number is used to reference the content on the various services. The lack of that data is what keeps some services (like Plex) out of universal search and one pass integration.


What exactly do you disagree with? Btw, as for integrating with 3rd party services, there's no way to know how TiVo integrates this data by only looking at the end user data.


----------



## trip1eX

I'm sure Rovi has some expertise in switching customers over to their guide. I see it as a non-issue.

They could keep your old shows as is and just start all new recordings on the new guide in new folders if they have to. Onepasses could be converted over through a simple name comparison. That would take care of 95+% of them. Maybe it would get a few wrong and you'd have to redo them.

This isn't mission critical stuff we're talking about at least for most. And they can give plenty of warnings during the transition to alert consumers to double check.


----------



## rainwater

trip1eX said:


> I'm sure Rovi has some expertise in switching customers over to their guide. I see it as a non-issue.


That may be true if TiVo just needed guide data. They use their Gracenote guide data for far more than just "guide data". It is integrated in to several TiVo products. No way Rovi could just port Gracenote guide data to Rovi guide data and be done.


----------



## mdavej

trip1eX said:


> I regularly get progams without proper air dates, old episodes marked as new and the wrong show description as it is. SEems like the song will remain the same.


Me too. But you have no idea how much worse Rovi is. The difference is so great, I can't quite quantify it. Maybe 100 times worse?

And the word "expertise" is like saying the captain of the Titanic has expertise. Yes, he knew his stuff, but the results were a disaster.


----------



## BobCamp1

TonyD79 said:


> Getting permission from their future parent is not legally allowed at this point. TiVo has to act independently as a corporation now.




They're acting as a corporation who's trying to persuade another corporation into merging with them. Tivo isn't going to do anything to tick Rovi off, such as locking into a long-term contract with a direct competitor. That's common sense. And not true independence.

There's a lot of     going on in these negotiations. If Rovi keeps mentioning that they have their own guide data, Tivo will read between the lines and assume that's going to be one of the conditions of the merger.


----------



## bonscott87

trip1eX said:


> I'm sure Rovi has some expertise in switching customers over to their guide. I see it as a non-issue.
> 
> They could keep your old shows as is and just start all new recordings on the new guide in new folders if they have to. Onepasses could be converted over through a simple name comparison. That would take care of 95+% of them. Maybe it would get a few wrong and you'd have to redo them.
> 
> This isn't mission critical stuff we're talking about at least for most. And they can give plenty of warnings during the transition to alert consumers to double check.


That's honestly not the issue. If the worst case scenario would be to delete all your one passes and recreate them, that would be no big deal.

The issue is just how bad....really, really bad...the Rovi guide data is. Worse is the fact they have channel lineups in most markets just plain wrong. In my market we've had 6 new subchannels or so added in the past 6 months. Rovi guides still don't have a single one of them. WMC, Channelmaster, etc all can't tune to half a dozen channels because they don't know they exist. Gracenote/Tribune added them right away and in some cases while still in just a testing phase, thus I could tune to them via the Tivo right away.

*THAT* is the big problem with Rovi.


----------



## ajwees41

has anyone even contact Tivo on to see what they say?


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## rainwater

ajwees41 said:


> has anyone even contact Tivo on to see what they say?


Are you serious? Why would they comment on a rumor?


----------



## trip1eX

bonscott87 said:


> That's honestly not the issue. If the worst case scenario would be to delete all your one passes and recreate them, that would be no big deal.
> 
> The issue is just how bad....really, really bad...the Rovi guide data is. Worse is the fact they have channel lineups in most markets just plain wrong. In my market we've had 6 new subchannels or so added in the past 6 months. Rovi guides still don't have a single one of them. WMC, Channelmaster, etc all can't tune to half a dozen channels because they don't know they exist. Gracenote/Tribune added them right away and in some cases while still in just a testing phase, thus I could tune to them via the Tivo right away.
> 
> *THAT* is the big problem with Rovi *for me.*


Fixed your post.


----------



## trip1eX

mdavej said:


> Me too. But you have no idea how much worse Rovi is. The difference is so great, I can't quite quantify it. Maybe 100 times worse?
> 
> And the word "expertise" is like saying the captain of the Titanic has expertise. Yes, he knew his stuff, but the results were a disaster.


Mentioning the Titantic is like mentioning someone wins the lottery.


----------



## trip1eX

rainwater said:


> That may be true if TiVo just needed guide data. They use their Gracenote guide data for far more than just "guide data". It is integrated in to several TiVo products. No way Rovi could just port Gracenote guide data to Rovi guide data and be done.


What else does Tivo use their guide data for? What are these unnamed Tivo products?

They don't have to port any guide data. They could just store your old shows as is on your Tivo under an old show folder. Point all one passes and search queries to the Rovio data base.


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## mdavej

trip1eX said:


> Mentioning the Titantic is like mentioning someone wins the lottery.


My analogy was to illustrate that experts can screw up royally, not that screwing up is a long shot. The chances that Rovi guide data is going to suck very badly aren't one in a million. It is an absolute certainty. Sounds like you aren't very concerned, so I'm not going to waste my breath any more. You've been warned, that's all I can do. When I see the Rovi iceberg on the horizon (when the takeover starts), I'm getting in a lifeboat immediately.


----------



## morac

It sounds like TiVo might not be able to use Gracenote data after being acquired by RoVi even if they wanted to based on TiVo's filing:


> The agreement provides each party with a termination right if the other party becomes controlled by certain third parties.


If RoVi is one of those "certain third parties", then Gracenote could cancel any licensing agreement the moment TiVo was acquired, no matter how long TiVo extends it.



mdavej said:


> My analogy was to illustrate that experts can screw up royally, not that screwing up is a long shot. The chances that Rovi guide data is going to suck very badly aren't one in a million. It is an absolute certainty. Sounds like you aren't very concerned, so I'm not going to waste my breath any more. You've been warned, that's all I can do. When I see the Rovi iceberg on the horizon (when the takeover starts), I'm getting in a lifeboat immediately.


An analogy I would use Apple's switch from using Google Maps to their own Map service. We all know how well that worked.


----------



## atmuscarella

mdavej said:


> My analogy was to illustrate that experts can screw up royally, not that screwing up is a long shot. The chances that Rovi guide data is going to suck very badly aren't one in a million. It is an absolute certainty. Sounds like you aren't very concerned, so I'm not going to waste my breath any more. You've been warned, that's all I can do. When I see the Rovi iceberg on the horizon (when the takeover starts), I'm getting in a lifeboat immediately.


And your point is what? That we should all go and sell our TiVos? I haven't even bothered to sell the 4-5 of them I don't use. Or perhaps that we should all go hide under the covers and pee our pants?

There is nothing I (and I am guessing most people) are going to do about this one way or the other. If some day my TiVos don't meet my needs I will move on other than that I am enjoying what I have and being amused by people who posting about how TiVo is dead, OTA is dead, linear broadcasts are dead, the world is ending etc. etc..


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

lpwcomp said:


> TiVo says it would be nearly impossible to change program information providers. SomeRandomIdiot insists they could switch to Rovi data in 30 days. So either he thinks that TiVo didn't know about the Rovi data or he knows better than TiVo what would be required. Both are ludicrous.


Interesting I cannot find the word "nearly impossible" as you state.

Gracenote (formerly known as Tribune Media Services, Inc.) is the sole supplier of the program guide data for the TiVo service. Gracenote, is the current sole supplier of program guide data for the TiVo service. Our current Television Listings Data Agreement with Gracenote originally became effective on May 14, 2007 and had an initial term of five years which TiVo has renewed for four additional years, and will expire on May 14, 2016. If we are unable to renew our agreement with Gracenote on terms acceptable to TiVo, our business could be harmed. The agreement provides each party with a termination right if the other party becomes controlled by certain third parties. If Gracenote breaches its obligation to provide us with data, rejects the agreement or otherwise fails to perform its obligations under our agreement, *we would be unable to provide certain aspects of the TiVo service to our customers until we are able to incorporate an alternate source of guide data. * We currently do not use any alternative television guide data nor have a license to use any alternative guide data.* If we were forced to seek an alternative provider of television guide data, there would be significant cost and delay involved in integrating such an alternative source of guide data should we do so in the future. Depending upon the amount of notice we receive of such a breach or rejection of our agreement or notice that we will be unable to renew our agreement by the time it expires, and the amount of development work required by us to incorporate an alternate source of guide data, we may be subject to a period of time in which we are unable to provide the TiVo service to our customers and distribution partners. * In such an event, our business would be harmed.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

lpwcomp said:


> Schedule data comes from each station. It has to. How is unknown. For networks affiliates including things like MeTV, they might just report local alterations, but I have no idea.
> 
> If there are schedule errors, you might consider contacting the station and/or Gracenote/TMS (via zap2it).


Wow....he does not know something about this 

The individual stations electronically transmit their schedules to the 2 major providers.

It is usually something the Marketing/Promotion Department of a Station would do. Some have moved it to the Research (people who analyze Nielsen Data for Sales) and smaller stations sometime leave it up to the Program Department.


----------



## NashGuy

When it comes to program data for streaming titles (the data on which the OnePass feature is built for stuff from Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, etc.), the existing arrangement leaves a lot to be desired. Shows don't typically show up in OnePass for a few days, maybe several. Shows will randomly disappear then a day or two later reappear. That said, I'm sure things could be worse if TiVo switched from Tribune to Rovi. But hey, maybe we could be pleasantly surprised that the situation improves with a switch to Rovi. Who knows? 

I'm less concerned about the quality of guide data than I am about Rovi/TiVo exiting the retail space altogether, with retail TiVos becoming orphaned products that no longer receive software updates, bug fixes, new versions of streaming apps, etc. I don't foresee my Roamio OTA being useless as a doorstop a year from now -- that's an unwarranted fear, I think. But if it appears by late this year that it is becoming an orphaned product, I may well get what I can out of it on eBay (it has lifetime service) and make the move to a UHD HDR TV (which I've been wanting for a couple years now), maybe one from Sony with Android TV built in, with access to all the top streaming apps (including Amazon Video, which is not typically available on Android TV).


----------



## trip1eX

mdavej said:


> My analogy was to illustrate that experts can screw up royally, not that screwing up is a long shot. The chances that Rovi guide data is going to suck very badly aren't one in a million. It is an absolute certainty. Sounds like you aren't very concerned, so I'm not going to waste my breath any more. You've been warned, that's all I can do. When I see the Rovi iceberg on the horizon (when the takeover starts), I'm getting in a lifeboat immediately.


lol. I was making fun of your analogy. I am the one saying your analogy is a "long shot" example.

IT's a worst case scenario. It's exception to the rule. Hence it's saying like people win the lottery....when someone says you're not going to win the lottery.

I like how you stick to the extremes. We got a mention of the titantic when talking about how expert "expertise" is. And then we have "it's an absolute certainty that things will suck very badly" if Rovi buys Tivo.

What's funny is your titantic example is really an argument against your "absolute certainty that rovi will suck very badly" statement.

Because people were absolutely certain the titanic wouldn't sink.


----------



## lpwcomp

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Wow....he does not know something about this


 And I, unlike you, am willing to admit that.


----------



## lew

A lot of fear doom and uncertainty in this thread. I can't remember a thread where there so many posts with made up facts, assumed facts and misrepresented facts.

I didn't know tivo's constract with GraceNote ends on May 14. Probably a good date. Basically the end of the tv season

Is there any doubt tivo is aware of the expiration date? Could Rovi have presented a proposal to tivo? Outlined how they would meet tivo's needs? Maybe working on beta software.

Could Rovio license use of the program ID numbers? Cash? Exchange of IP rights? Rovio has thousands of patents. Could Rovio claim the numbers are in the public domain and wait to be sued? Not sure tivo would agree to that risk.

An idiot posted a quote 


> If we were forced to seek an alternative provider of television guide data, there would be significant cost and delay involved in integrating such an alternative source of guide data should we do so in the future.


That point is with regards to TMS going out of business, with no notice. Tivo has months to prepare.

If Tivo changes guide data, and software changes are required, will tivo update series 3 units? Earlier units. If they decide to EOL series 2 units will they change the software to allow manual recording?


----------



## TonyD79

BobCamp1 said:


> They're acting as a corporation who's trying to persuade another corporation into merging with them. Tivo isn't going to do anything to tick Rovi off, such as locking into a long-term contract with a direct competitor. That's common sense. And not true independence. There's a lot of     going on in these negotiations. If Rovi keeps mentioning that they have their own guide data, Tivo will read between the lines and assume that's going to be one of the conditions of the merger.


I've been in the inside of these things. What you are suggesting is patently illegal. Especially for publicly traded companies.

These winks you think happen do not. Yes, TiVo may ask THEMSELVES if it makes sense with a potential merger but just one scrap that they spoke to Rovi about it and the deal is off.

In the meanwhile, TiVo is not going to deliver itself dead on arrival. If they don't have data they are out of business. They still have to negotiate. And rovi is not a potential lover. They are a business. They aren't going to say to TiVo "you continued a relationship with the other man and we are out."

There are adults involved her. Not children. Not lovers.


----------



## foghorn2

atmuscarella said:


> And your point is what? That we should all go and sell our TiVos? I haven't even bothered to sell the 4-5 of them I don't use. Or perhaps that we should all go hide under the covers and pee our pants?
> 
> There is nothing I (and I am guessing most people) are going to do about this one way or the other. If some day my TiVos don't meet my needs I will move on other than that I am enjoying what I have and being amused by people who posting about how TiVo is dead, OTA is dead, linear broadcasts are dead, the world is ending etc. etc..


Threres forces out there that want OTA and DVR's Dead, along with DVD's

They are the ones that want TV to be like music, you don't own anything, you just stream it and pay for it again, again, and again.

I have a good feeling behind the scenes Apple is manipulating all this so they can be King of Video Distribution. They will destroy TV like they did with Music as we know it while making billions.


----------



## aaronwt

foghorn2 said:


> Threres forces out there that want OTA and DVR's Dead, along with DVD's
> 
> They are the ones that want TV to be like music, you don't own anything, you just stream it and pay for it again, again, and again.
> 
> I have a good feeling behind the scenes Apple is manipulating all this so they can be King of Video Distribution. They will destroy TV like they did with Music as we know it while making billions.


But that would be opposite of how it is now. Any streaming TV content I get from Amazon, Vudu, XBL, PSN etc. I don't have the option to rent it. Only the option to purchase it. And once I purchase it I can watch it many times over. I have titles I purchased over eight years ago I still have access to.


----------



## rainwater

lew said:


> If Tivo changes guide data, and software changes are required, will tivo update series 3 units? Earlier units. If they decide to EOL series 2 units will they change the software to allow manual recording?


If TiVo went with that method, it would effectively put them out of business. For sure they would make all the changes on the backend instead. Otherwise, even if they were updating the software on the boxes, they would all have to be simultaneously updated in order to continue working. Even Tivo can't manage that.


----------



## bonscott87

trip1eX said:


> Fixed your post.


Actually not just me. For many/most. One only has to venture to the Green Button and other sites to see that.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

lpwcomp said:


> And I, unlike you, am willing to admit that.


No, I admit when i am incorrect, unlike you and wizwor.

try it sometime.


----------



## lpwcomp

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> No, I admit when i am incorrect, unlike you and wizwor.
> 
> try it sometime.


Right. Of course you do.


----------



## jcthorne

aaronwt said:


> But that would be opposite of how it is now. Any streaming TV content I get from Amazon, Vudu, XBL, PSN etc. I don't have the option to rent it. Only the option to purchase it. And once I purchase it I can watch it many times over. I have titles I purchased over eight years ago I still have access to.


I got burned buying 'online content' once already. Rhapsody.

I will never again agree to 'buy' content that I cannot get access to a permanent and un DRM damaged copy on my local storage.

I do pay for streaming and other rental options but fully understand that I am only paying for current usage. Not ownership.

As such. the only items in my Amazon library that I 'own' are ones that I got as part of some freebie deal or music that was uploaded from my own collection as a 'match' in my Amazon Music library. I have the original locally.


----------



## mdavej

trip1eX said:


> Because people were absolutely certain the titanic wouldn't sink.


That one works both ways. Just keep you head in the sand, and you'll be fine.


----------



## BobCamp1

TonyD79 said:


> I've been in the inside of these things. What you are suggesting is patently illegal. Especially for publicly traded companies.
> 
> These winks you think happen do not. Yes, TiVo may ask THEMSELVES if it makes sense with a potential merger but just one scrap that they spoke to Rovi about it and the deal is off.
> 
> In the meanwhile, TiVo is not going to deliver itself dead on arrival. If they don't have data they are out of business. They still have to negotiate. And rovi is not a potential lover. They are a business. They aren't going to say to TiVo "you continued a relationship with the other man and we are out."
> 
> There are adults involved her. Not children. Not lovers.


I didn't say they directly spoke to Rovi about it. That's not a wink. I've been in the middle of this as well, but with two private companies. Maybe the rules are different. I know that my company had a project that directly competed with the future parent company, and work suddenly slowed to a crawl. People were taken off of that project. Rumors flew that we were about to be bought. When the acquisition was officially announced, all work on that project ceased the next week. There was no direct order before the acquisition, it was just an assumption made by our company to not waste manpower on something that was more than likely going to be canceled anyway.

I think we agree, we're just arguing over semantics. Tivo has a responsibility to continue business as usual until the merger happens, so they're going to have to renew the Gracenote contract for one year. However, since they want to remain as attractive to Rovi as possible, and Rovi may make them switch guide data once the merger is complete, they probably won't renew the Gracenote contract for another four year stretch. Tivo will at least put in a clause in the Gracenote contract saying that if they get bought or merge then the contract is dissolved.


----------



## BobCamp1

lew said:


> A lot of fear doom and uncertainty in this thread. I can't remember a thread where there so many posts with made up facts, assumed facts and misrepresented facts.
> 
> If Tivo changes guide data, and software changes are required, will tivo update series 3 units?


I agree, it should be noted that Rovi has the second-best guide data available. Even FYI Television's guide data wasn't that bad. However, there was a definite increase in detail and a small but noticeable increase in accuracy when FIOS switched from FYI to Tribune.

Since Rovi owns TV Guide, has anybody bothered to go to the TV Guide website and see how accurate the guide data is? Just because Media Center didn't work well doesn't make it Rovi's fault. Microsoft has been known to screw up from time to time.

It should also be noted that I don't remember FIOS having to perform a software update to use the new guide. But they've performed many updates since then and it was a while ago so I could be wrong.

Note that Tivo can make these older units run one-time scripts remotely. The Series 1 units still do it four times a year to compensate for the date changes in DST. Maybe that could be used to perform whatever database conversion needs to be done in switching guide data providers.

None of this may even be necessary, as I don't think Tivo using Gracenote guide data is a deal breaker for the potential upcoming merger.


----------



## mdavej

BobCamp1 said:


> Since Rovi owns TV Guide, has anybody bothered to go to the TV Guide website and see how accurate the guide data is? Just because Media Center didn't work well doesn't make it Rovi's fault. Microsoft has been known to screw up from time to time.


Of course. That's the first thing we did when WMC made the transition. The guide data was (and still is) just as terrible on all Rovi powered sites as it was in WMC. If you look at the thread at TGB, it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that most of the issues are Rovi's fault. At least the engineers at Microsoft participated in the thread, addressed our concerns and gave us excellent feedback. Rovi was completely mum.

We've been through this exact same scenario with WMC and have direct evidence of Rovi's incompetence. How can there be any basis for the idea that when Rovi does the same thing at Tivo, all their inaccurate and missing data will magically be fixed?


----------



## TonyD79

BobCamp1 said:


> I didn't say they directly spoke to Rovi about it. That's not a wink. I've been in the middle of this as well, but with two private companies. Maybe the rules are different. I know that my company had a project that directly competed with the future parent company, and work suddenly slowed to a crawl. People were taken off of that project. Rumors flew that we were about to be bought. When the acquisition was officially announced, all work on that project ceased the next week. There was no direct order before the acquisition, it was just an assumption made by our company to not waste manpower on something that was more than likely going to be canceled anyway. I think we agree, we're just arguing over semantics. Tivo has a responsibility to continue business as usual until the merger happens, so they're going to have to renew the Gracenote contract for one year. However, since they want to remain as attractive to Rovi as possible, and Rovi may make them switch guide data once the merger is complete, they probably won't renew the Gracenote contract for another four year stretch. Tivo will at least put in a clause in the Gracenote contract saying that if they get bought or merge then the contract is dissolved.


Yes. Common sense comes into play. That is not a wink. That is a business decision based upon facts. But we are too early in this dance (which takes longer with publicly traded companies) for TiVo to be doing that and they have a need to continue with current services. Once the merger is down the road, the decision making changes. Heck, there can still be issued after merger. My company could not even talk to part of an acquisition a few years ago for a period of two years AFTER the acquisition as part of the agreement with the government to allow the purchase.


----------



## ncted

If the guide data starts sucking on my Roamio, I will have little patience before I drop Tivo. The good guide data is a big part of what I am paying for every month. Of course, being monthly makes it a lot easier to drop Tivo if I want to as well.


----------



## markjrenna

I just looked at Comcast and TV Guide... data supplied by Rovi. I looked at my FiOS and Zap2it... data supplied by Gracenote. I'm not seeing anything that looks bad. The data, for the most part, is worded differently but it looks fine to me.


----------



## lew

TonyD79 said:


> Yes. Common sense comes into play. That is not a wink. That is a business decision based upon facts. But we are too early in this dance (which takes longer with publicly traded companies) for TiVo to be doing that and they have a need to continue with current services. Once the merger is down the road, the decision making changes. Heck, there can still be issued after merger. My company could not even talk to part of an acquisition a few years ago for a period of two years AFTER the acquisition as part of the agreement with the government to allow the purchase.


I take the opposite view. Assume tivo is currently considering using Rovi. Assume Rovi is in the testing stage. The "pressure" is more on Rovi to get it to work then on tivo to change to Rovi even if it doesn't work.


----------



## lpwcomp

We've totally lost sight of the problem identified by the title of this thread - What happens after May 14th?


----------



## TonyD79

lew said:


> I take the opposite view. Assume tivo is currently considering using Rovi. Assume Rovi is in the testing stage. The "pressure" is more on Rovi to get it to work then on tivo to change to Rovi even if it doesn't work.


I'm not sure that is an opposite view. Just a different angle.


----------



## schatham

I guarantee they already have this covered. Either a contract extension already in place, a contract with Rovi in Place or something similar. No way a company approaches a drop dead date like this! 

For all we know Tivo has been making software changes to switch to Rovi for a year. Maybe those weekend no guide updates have been so they can work on a Rovi transition. 

One more thing, of course the engineers can figure out how to switch guide data providers. Just because some of you can't figure out how does not mean they can't.


----------



## DevdogAZ

lpwcomp said:


> We've totally lost sight of the problem identified by the title of this thread - What happens after May 14th?


I don't think there's any way TiVo and Rovi finalize an acquisition before then and make the necessary changes to the database to allow for seamless transition to Rovi's data. So basically there's no option for TiVo other than renewing their contract with Gracenote. Depending on the terms of the contract, it may not be possible for TiVo to renew for a term shorter than four years.


----------



## markjrenna

TiVo moving or not moving to Rovi or extending their contract with Gracenote for guide data has nothing to do with the rumored acquisition of TiVo by Rovi. They are exclusive deals independent of each other.

If TiVo is moving from Gracenote to Rovi for guide data, this would have been in the works for a while so that the transition would be as smooth as possible for all concerned. Typically a change is due to the outsider, Rovi, has provided an acceptable level of data to TiVo at a lower cost than Gracenote. If the company (TiVo) is run properly then the transition cost would have also factored in and made sense from an engineering standpoint as well as a financial one.

When FiOS transitioned from FYI to Gracenote (back then it was TMS) there were a few hiccups mostly relating to recording sports. If you have FiOS you will notice many recurring sporting events like Hockey, Basketball, Baseball... have an air date marker at the end of the description so the DVR recording logic knows they are unique or repeats once recorded. Since the transition other logic has been written into the FiOS DVR's to assist with recording and stopping duplicate recordings that re-air. FiOS made the switch from FYI to Gracenote mostly due to the Gracenote deal has saved Verizon a boat load of money by switching. Yes FYI provided poor data so there were customer complaints. But the savings in switching to Gracenote was the key factor. So it made financial sense and the few issues were worked out by the engineers over a relatively short period of time.

Based on my comparison from Rovi and Gracenote the data does not look all that different. I'm sure whatever direction TiVo has decided, the engineers are fully aware of the major challenges in switching guide providers. Of course there will always be something overlooked. But hopefully with due diligence those issues will be minor and easy to correct. And TiVo, the company, wants to make sure any transition has little impact on the consumers, if possible.


----------



## waynomo

bonscott87 said:


> That's honestly not the issue. If the worst case scenario would be to delete all your one passes and recreate them, that would be no big deal.
> 
> The issue is just how bad....really, really bad...the Rovi guide data is. Worse is the fact they have channel lineups in most markets just plain wrong. In my market we've had 6 new subchannels or so added in the past 6 months. Rovi guides still don't have a single one of them. WMC, Channelmaster, etc all can't tune to half a dozen channels because they don't know they exist. Gracenote/Tribune added them right away and in some cases while still in just a testing phase, thus I could tune to them via the Tivo right away.
> 
> *THAT* is the big problem with Rovi.


Couldn't TiVo still tune to a channel even if it wasn't in the guide?


----------



## JoeKustra

waynomo said:


> Couldn't TiVo still tune to a channel even if it wasn't in the guide?


It does depend on the TiVo model, but if your TV can tune it, a TiVo should also. It just won't be pretty without a guide. Worst case is loss of the clock. Then you have a brick. I don't anticipate that happening.


----------



## PlanetJones

aaronwt said:


> . And once I purchase it I can watch it many times over. I have titles I purchased over eight years ago I still have access to.


Assuming that the company stays around. If they go under, you have nothing....


----------



## ajwees41

BobCamp1 said:


> I agree, it should be noted that Rovi has the second-best guide data available. Even FYI Television's guide data wasn't that bad. However, there was a definite increase in detail and a small but noticeable increase in accuracy when FIOS switched from FYI to Tribune.
> 
> Since Rovi owns TV Guide, has anybody bothered to go to the TV Guide website and see how accurate the guide data is? Just because Media Center didn't work well doesn't make it Rovi's fault. Microsoft has been known to screw up from time to time.
> 
> It should also be noted that I don't remember FIOS having to perform a software update to use the new guide. But they've performed many updates since then and it was a while ago so I could be wrong.
> 
> Note that Tivo can make these older units run one-time scripts remotely. The Series 1 units still do it four times a year to compensate for the date changes in DST. Maybe that could be used to perform whatever database conversion needs to be done in switching guide data providers.
> 
> None of this may even be necessary, as I don't think Tivo using Gracenote guide data is a deal breaker for the potential upcoming merger.


according to this http://www.tvguide.com/pages/staff/ the tvguide listings website looks like cbs runs it now.


----------



## mdavej

markjrenna said:


> I just looked at Comcast and TV Guide... data supplied by Rovi. I looked at my FiOS and Zap2it... data supplied by Gracenote. I'm not seeing anything that looks bad. The data, for the most part, is worded differently but it looks fine to me.


It may look ok on the surface, but the data required for accurate recordings and searches is not so good (new/rerun flags, season/episode numbers, thumbnails, genres, ratings, etc.). Also many local lineups are missing compared to Zap2it, as we found on WMC. Many users have had to manually create their own channel maps, which isn't possible with Tivo AFAIK.

I really do hope Rovi surprises me because I don't want to give up Tivo either. I spent a lot of money to leave Rovi and switch to Tivo. I don't want them to fail. I just have no reason to believe they'll succeed.

As far as where to find Rovi listings online now, I have no idea. They used to be on MSN.com, but that was shut down a few weeks ago. I'm not sure how CBS Interactive is related to Rovi now, if at all.


----------



## tarheelblue32

JoeKustra said:


> It does depend on the TiVo model, but if your TV can tune it, a TiVo should also. It just won't be pretty without a guide. Worst case is loss of the clock. Then you have a brick. I don't anticipate that happening.


It would be nice if TiVo would do a software update that allows you to manually set the clock.


----------



## Series3Sub

Jed1 said:


> I reached out to one of my old contacts at Gemstar, now Rovi, and it looks like I may get our listings for our area updated. One good thing with TV Guide listings is they have all the logos for the channels and their listings were always correct.
> Everybody should realize that Tribune has exited bankruptcy and is still under the control of their creditors. Maybe this would be a smart time for TiVo to make the change. TMS has lost a good portion of their clients since the bankruptcy.
> http://www.gracenote.com/on-entertainment-tv-listings-product-page/
> They only have 11 clients left.
> 
> TV Guide also has ID numbers for all their shows. My very first TV with TVGOS embedded used program ID's to record to a VCR so this can easily by incorporated with TiVo.


Not making sense. Further, logos are not necessarily related to the metadata provider. That would be TiVo, Dish, and others responsibility related to EPG design that may be propriatary via Box maker or box maker pays license fees for EPG.


----------



## Series3Sub

TonyD79 said:


> That is a business decision, not a technical one. If they are forced to change the index numbers it would be a stay in business decision. Lots of things get done when you are standing on a burning platform.


And TiVo would use this to further cripple legacy TiVo's to force people to upgrade, at a pretty big cost, to the current TiVo's. TiVo has been using the death by a thousand cuts for its S1-S3 ever so slowly taking away features, even accessing on-line, a totally unnecessary move to take away on-line features of the S3's.


----------



## Series3Sub

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Again, just as my SS number is used with IRS, Social Security, Drivers License, Employer, Banking, Doctor, Insurance and Gillion other services, Tribune Series 1234567 = Survivor can also be put in the Ro*V*i (planning for the future) database....the same with a Program Number.
> 
> Again, I see nothing in the TMS contract that would prevent them from doing this.
> 
> One simply adds these 2 numbers....the series and program numbers TMS/Gracenote already uses up to 5/1/2016 and then makes up their own numbers after that.
> 
> That way all previous TiVos would continue to operate with the old numbers cross-referenced.


Oh yes, look how seamless the transition was for WMC. While it can be done, it can be at great cost to the reliability of the Metadata and EPG info. The point is correct that it is far more complicated than any absoluteidiot and others would think. The changover would be closer to a mess than one would think. However, if Rovi does by TiVo, Gracenot will NOT be used and we will have to suffer the change to Rovi metadata and EPG.


----------



## trip1eX

mdavej said:


> That one works both ways. Just keep you head in the sand, and you'll be fine.


That makes no sense.

I'm not the one claiming absolute certainty. You are.


----------



## Series3Sub

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As One of the clients I work with tracks EVERY song, EVERY Commercial, EVERY Program in Real Time on EVERY TV, CABLE AND RADIO STATION in the USA, I assure you that is much larger a database than the GraceNote/TMS Database.


Your analogy is apples to oranges.


----------



## trip1eX

markjrenna said:


> I just looked at Comcast and TV Guide... data supplied by Rovi. I looked at my FiOS and Zap2it... data supplied by Gracenote. I'm not seeing anything that looks bad. The data, for the most part, is worded differently but it looks fine to me.


But you don't get it, a few people have a specific problem with Rovi guide data so it's bad for everyone!!!!!!!!

YOu've been warned. 

And remember no one ever has a problem with Tivo or its guide data.

/sarcasm


----------



## Series3Sub

jth tv said:


> How does it work ? Where does the scheduling data come from ? Does each station publish its own ? Do they email it or post it someplace or subscribe to some software ? It seems pretty haphazard at times.
> 
> Currently KCET (PBS) has been showing coming attractions for "Shetland", Sunday at 9 but TiVo schedule shows "Movie", no description. A lot of work goes into producing a show, but then the station just kind lazes out.


FWIW, KCET has NOT been a PBS member station for several years. KCET carries NONE of the PBS content.


----------



## Series3Sub

Well, somehow I think that by the time of the agreement TiVo has with Gracenote ends, Rovi will announce it is shuttering the retail and DVR business. So, we won't have to worry about any such nightmare transition from Gracenote to Rovi because Rovi will not be in the DVR business. Rovi will do a Sony and Sezmi on us.


----------



## rainwater

Jed1 said:


> One good thing with TV Guide listings is they have all the logos for the channels and their listings were always correct.


TiVo doesn't get channel logos from Gracenote. They provide the logos themselves. For some reason the process of updating them seems to take years. I'm not sure if missing/inaccurate logos on TiVos is a business decision or lack of resources problem. I doubt switching to Rovi would make a bit of difference in that regard.


----------



## TonyD79

Series3Sub said:


> Well, somehow I think that by the time of the agreement TiVo has with Gracenote ends, Rovi will announce it is shuttering the retail and DVR business. So, we won't have to worry about any such nightmare transition from Gracenote to Rovi because Rovi will not be in the DVR business. Rovi will do a Sony and Sezmi on us.


In six weeks?


----------



## tampa8

Series3Sub said:


> FWIW, KCET has NOT been a PBS member station for several years. KCET carries NONE of the PBS content.


Depends on how you mean that. They may not carry PBS _created_ programming they DO carry some of the same content however. (Several shows) So I'm not sure what your point is about their guide data not being complete and not actually being a PBS outlet.


----------



## mrizzo80

Someone mentioned up thread that GraceNote powers TiVo's OTT metadata content as well. 30 for 30 (among others) has been missing from OnePass (at least for Netflix availability) for about 6 months. I reported this to TiVo twice - nothing has been done.

Could the root cause be on GraceNote's end? Or is this definitely a TiVo problem?


----------



## Space

It is difficult to spot-check and find problems with Rovi data, as the problems are sporadic.

I currently use WMC with Rovi data, and do still have issues that I believe are related to Rovi (as opposed to Microsoft's poor import of the Rovi data in to WMC).

An example of an issue that exists right now is with "Storage Wars" on A&E.
There are several episodes called "Barry Strikes Back" which are all different episodes (although they all have the same episode name).

Rovi sees these episodes as all the same episode, even though they are three separate distinct episodes (and actually sees them as the same as an episode that aired last season, so WMC will not record any of them, since it thinks it already recorded them):
4/5 9:00pm ET
4/5 9:30pm ET
4/12 9:30pm ET

It appears that Gracenote does not have the same problem with these episodes (you can see that they have different unique episodeIDs on zap2it: EP01341345-0216, EP01341345-0218, EP01341345-0230).

I'll admit that having several episodes in a series with the same episode name is unusual, but Gracenote appears to be able to handle it, Rovi cannot (at least not consistently).

This is not something you would notice by looking at the web sites that provide Rovi listings, such as tvguide.com or roviguide.com as the metadata that is used is not displayed on those sites.

I've also had problems with Rovi data where some episodes of a series are not associated with the series, so that they will not be recorded with a "season pass" (in TiVo jargon). Often this data is corrected before the episode airs, but sometimes it is not (although I'll admit that I have not seen this problem within the last month or so, at least for the shows I record).


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

Series3Sub said:


> Well, somehow I think that by the time of the agreement TiVo has with Gracenote ends, Rovi will announce it is shuttering the retail and DVR business. So, we won't have to worry about any such nightmare transition from Gracenote to Rovi because Rovi will not be in the DVR business. Rovi will do a Sony and Sezmi on us.


Shows what you know. TiVos agreement with Rovi ALREADY ended.

Has an announcement been made in the last 90 days shuttering the DVR Business?


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

rainwater said:


> TiVo doesn't get channel logos from Gracenote. They provide the logos themselves. For some reason the process of updating them seems to take years. I'm not sure if missing/inaccurate logos on TiVos is a business decision or lack of resources problem. I doubt switching to Rovi would make a bit of difference in that regard.


TiVo gets a large amount of artwork from Gracenote - and has since long before TMS purchased Gracenote.

How do you know where the logos come from?


----------



## morac

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Shows what you know. TiVos agreement with Rovi ALREADY ended.


It couldn't have as the stockholders haven't voted on it.


----------



## lew

morac said:


> It couldn't have as the stockholders haven't voted on it.


Around 2009 Tivo had a contract to get some data from Rovi. I suspect that's the contract the poster is alluding to.


----------



## Wil

lew said:


> Around 2009 Tivo had a contract to get some data from Rovi. I suspect that's the contract the poster is alluding to.


Since you speak Idiot, would you be willing to volunteer as a permanent translator here?


----------



## shwru980r

If Tivo's guide data becomes significantly degraded, would it jeopardize their MSO relationships?


----------



## tarheelblue32

shwru980r said:


> If Tivo's guide data becomes significantly degraded, would it jeopardize their MSO relationships?


I doubt MSOs care all that much. Most of them are quasi-monopolies with limited competition.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

morac said:


> It couldn't have as the stockholders haven't voted on it.


Learn to read a 10-K. Already done and posted in this thread in post 37.


----------



## rainwater

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> How do you know where the logos come from?


I know because TiVo has told me when I requested logo updates.


----------



## mdavej

rainwater said:


> I know because TiVo has told me when I requested logo updates.


How do you request logo updates? Do they actually fix them?


----------



## JoeKustra

mdavej said:


> How do you request logo updates? Do they actually fix them?


I've been trying since they were first added. No change.


----------



## tarheelblue32

JoeKustra said:


> I've been trying since they were first added. No change.


I actually put in a request for a couple of major channels (ESPN and ESPN2), and after about 3 months they finally got around to fixing them.


----------



## mdavej

I put in a request on the lineup issues page. Is that what you did, tarheel?


----------



## JoeKustra

tarheelblue32 said:


> I actually put in a request for a couple of major channels (ESPN and ESPN2), and after about 3 months they finally got around to fixing them.


It's not just the channel/network left side. The info block is been wrong before the logos were added. Like MSNBC, TBS, HD Net Movies.

I wonder if Rovi has it right. I see that zap2it, tvguide.com both have tonight's Motive on USA correct. My TiVo box thinks it is an older repeat from last year (it is in Canada). Maybe Rovi would be an improvement.


----------



## tarheelblue32

mdavej said:


> I put in a request on the lineup issues page. Is that what you did, tarheel?


Yeah that's all I did.


----------



## lpwcomp

JoeKustra said:


> It's not just the channel/network left side. The info block is been wrong before the logos were added. Like MSNBC, TBS, HD Net Movies.
> 
> I wonder if Rovi has it right. I see that zap2it, tvguide.com both have tonight's Motive on USA correct. My TiVo box thinks it is an older repeat from last year (it is in Canada). Maybe Rovi would be an improvement.


The TiVo box "thinks it is an older repeat from last year" because it is since it was first aired in Canada. You really do not want a TiVo to use the new flag as supplied by either Gracenote or Rovi. If it did, only the initial showing would qualify and if there is a conflict that prevents recording of that initial showing, a subsequent showing would not be recorded. "Motive" is actually an example of this as the episode is repeated at 0100 on Saturday. Neither zap2it nor tvguide have that showing marked as new.


----------



## JoeKustra

lpwcomp said:


> The TiVo box "thinks it is an older repeat from last year" because it is since it was first aired in Canada. You really do not want a TiVo to use the new flag as supplied by either Gracenote or Rovi. If it did, only the initial showing would qualify and if there is a conflict that prevents recording of that initial showing, a subsequent showing would not be recorded. "Motive" is actually an example of this as the episode is repeated at 0100 on Saturday. Neither zap2it nor tvguide have that showing marked as new.


That must be your zipcode. I show it as "new" and "Premier" in zap2it and "new" in tvguide.com. I think I mentioned Canada.

Did Gracenote supply bad data to TiVo? Did zap2it fix the data? Nobody is talking.


----------



## lpwcomp

JoeKustra said:


> That must be your zipcode. I show it as "new" and "Premier" in zap2it and "new" in tvguide.com. I think I mentioned Canada.
> 
> Did Gracenote supply bad data to TiVo? Did zap2it fix the data? Nobody is talking.


For tvguide, since they didn't have an appropriate lineup, I used the national Eastern time zone listing. The first (10PM tonight) is marked as New. The 0100 tomorrow showing isn't.

For zap2it, I'm using the Atlanta Comcast digital lineup. The first showing is marked "Premiere" and "New". The second showing isn't.


----------



## Space

The NEW flag is not used by WMC (and I assume TiVo). It is the OAD that determines if an episode is considered NEW. If the OAD is within 7 days of the airing date, then it is considered NEW.

For shows that first aired in another country, the OAD is the date it aired in that country, so would result in it being never considered as NEW in WMC (in your local country).

In WMC, you would use the "New & Rerun" setting to record these foreign series, this causes WMC to record every episode of the series that has not already been recorded in the past. I would assume there is a similar setting for the TiVo.

This is why the OAD (and not the NEW flag) is so important to have correct. Currently, Rovi seems to have trouble with getting this date correct for shows that are originally scheduled for a certain date and then changed to another date before airing (it retains the original scheduled date as the OAD). Gracenote does not have this problem.

Tonight's episode of "Motive" has an OAD of 3/8/2015, so it will not be considered a NEW episode even though it is marked with the NEW flag. Nothing was "fixed" in the zap2it data, it is the same data that your TiVo is using.


----------



## Alan Gordon

mdavej said:


> How do you request logo updates? Do they actually fix them?


Do they actually fix them? Sometimes...

I live within the Albany, GA DMA and have two Roamios I use with OTA. I can pick up channels from MULTIPLE DMAs, though most come from three markets (Albany, GA, Tallahassee, FL, Columbus, GA). Last year, I decided I was going contact TiVo about all the sub-channels missing logos like the Albany, GA ABC affiliate which is on the sub-channel of the NBC affiliate. I contacted TiVo about the MeTV affiliate in Columbus, GA having the CBS logo (it's a sub-channel of the CBS affiliate), and I contacted them last year when the FOX affiliation in Tallahassee, FL switched to a sub-channel of the NBC affiliate. There were more as well...

A lot of the logos they fixed, but there are still issues...

For instance, the MeTV affiliate in _*Columbus, GA*_ now has this logo:



TiVo added a FOX logo to WTWC-DT2 in Tallahassee after I contacted them and told them that FOX switched affiliations. WTLH-DT which formerly had the affiliation still carried the FOX logo even though it's a MeTV affiliate now.

There's still a lot of false information in the guide lineup for my area though. WTVY-DT4 in Dothan still doesn't have an NBC logo. WFXU in Tallahassee, FL has a logo for The CW and program guide data for it, but I don't think they are an affiliate of The CW anymore. My Roamio has guide data for WTLH #49 (yes, that's right, guide data for an ANALOG channel):



I contacted TiVo in January about some channels missing sub-channels that launched late last year and early this year back in January. Two of the three missing sub-channels appeared a couple weeks after I reported it, and I'm still waiting on the third (which changed affiliations today!), and I reported a few missing logos (ION, QVC, and WTLH still having a FOX logo). Nothing's changed on them yet...


----------



## jkovach

What is the guide data source for DirecTV Tivo units?


----------



## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> I live within the Albany, GA DMA and have two Roamios I use with OTA. I can pick up channels from MULTIPLE DMAs, though most come from three markets (Albany, GA, Tallahassee, FL, Columbus, GA).


This is one of the things that concerns me about Rovi.

TV Guide has guide data for only about 1/3 of the channels I can receive OTA... though they strangely list 3 stations from the other side of the state that I cannot.

Their cast & crew info seems to be inferior in many ways and superior in others. The O.C.D. in me would volunteer to "help" fix some of Gracenote's issues...


----------



## lpwcomp

For TiVo, a showing is marked as "NEW" in the guide if the OAD is the same day as the showing.

For scheduling purposes, it is considered new if the OAD is within 28 days of the day of the showing.


----------



## JoeKustra

Space said:


> Tonight's episode of "Motive" has an OAD of 3/8/2015, so it will not be considered a NEW episode even though it is marked with the NEW flag. Nothing was "fixed" in the zap2it data, it is the same data that your TiVo is using.


True. I wish TiVo would get some help from Gracenote and listen to them when they fix the episode to make it new in the U.S. so TiVo could handle it better. A good example is the U.K. You, Me & the Apocalypse. TiVo took a few weeks, then made it "new". When it started it was also an old orphan and there was no "new" ability. But I guess will never be settled. Or maybe it will be on 5/14.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Alan Gordon said:


> Do they actually fix them? Sometimes...
> 
> I live within the Albany, GA DMA and have two Roamios I use with OTA. I can pick up channels from MULTIPLE DMAs, though most come from three markets (Albany, GA, Tallahassee, FL, Columbus, GA). Last year, I decided I was going contact TiVo about all the sub-channels missing logos like the Albany, GA ABC affiliate which is on the sub-channel of the NBC affiliate. I contacted TiVo about the MeTV affiliate in Columbus, GA having the CBS logo (it's a sub-channel of the CBS affiliate), and I contacted them last year when the FOX affiliation in Tallahassee, FL switched to a sub-channel of the NBC affiliate. There were more as well...
> 
> A lot of the logos they fixed, but there are still issues...
> 
> For instance, the MeTV affiliate in _*Columbus, GA*_ now has this logo:
> 
> 
> 
> TiVo added a FOX logo to WTWC-DT2 in Tallahassee after I contacted them and told them that FOX switched affiliations. WTLH-DT which formerly had the affiliation still carried the FOX logo even though it's a MeTV affiliate now.
> 
> There's still a lot of false information in the guide lineup for my area though. WTVY-DT4 in Dothan still doesn't have an NBC logo. WFXU in Tallahassee, FL has a logo for The CW and program guide data for it, but I don't think they are an affiliate of The CW anymore. My Roamio has guide data for WTLH #49 (yes, that's right, guide data for an ANALOG channel):
> 
> 
> 
> I contacted TiVo in January about some channels missing sub-channels that launched late last year and early this year back in January. Two of the three missing sub-channels appeared a couple weeks after I reported it, and I'm still waiting on the third (which changed affiliations today!), and I reported a few missing logos (ION, QVC, and WTLH still having a FOX logo). Nothing's changed on them yet...


Wow, TiVo must hate having customers like you. I'll bet 99% of people would be happy that they got channel logos on the major OTA and cable networks and just leave it at that. I have no idea why you'd go through the trouble to report incorrect or missing logos for random local subchannels. That seems like a major waste of your time and TiVo's time.


----------



## JoeKustra

DevdogAZ said:


> Wow, TiVo must hate having customers like you. I'll bet 99% of people would be happy that they got channel logos on the major OTA and cable networks and just leave it at that. I have no idea why you'd go through the trouble to report incorrect or missing logos for random local subchannels. That seems like a major waste of your time and TiVo's time.


When Comet was added to my lineup, it had Comet in my guide. Two weeks later it changed to WSWBDT3. Same listings. I reported it to TiVo and they said I was nuts. It's worse: I shouldn't even receive that channel since it's not in my subscription. Same for HD NET Movies. I get it, wrong logo, but it belongs with HBO & other premium channels.

I'm retired. Plenty of time to waste.


----------



## lpwcomp

JoeKustra said:


> True. I wish TiVo would get some help from Gracenote and listen to them when they fix the episode to make it new in the U.S. so TiVo could handle it better. A good example is the U.K. You, Me & the Apocalypse. TiVo took a few weeks, then made it "new". When it started it was also an old orphan and there was no "new" ability. But I guess will never be settled. Or maybe it will be on 5/14.


It may have been Gracenote that "fixed" it.

Starting with episode 4, the OAD for "You, Me & the Apocalypse" was the date of the first _*NBC*_ showing. However, if you look at the episode list in zap2it, only last night's episode has such a date. Very odd. I will be interested to see what OAD last night's episode has in zap2it a week from now.

IMDB is even odder. Only episode 1 has the U.S. date.

I haven't checked tvguide to see what they have.


----------



## tarheelblue32

DevdogAZ said:


> Wow, TiVo must hate having customers like you. I'll bet 99% of people would be happy that they got channel logos on the major OTA and cable networks and just leave it at that. I have no idea why you'd go through the trouble to report incorrect or missing logos for random local subchannels. That seems like a major waste of your time and TiVo's time.


If nobody ever reports incorrect information, then it will never get corrected. If people want to spend their time filling out a form to point out errors in the channel network logos, then that's their business. If TiVo wants to simply ignore the error reports because they don't believe it to be worth their time to correct, then they can certainly do so.


----------



## Alan Gordon

DevdogAZ said:


> Wow, TiVo must hate having customers like you.


TiVo hates me! In fact, TiVo is considering selling itself in order to get away from me!! 



DevdogAZ said:


> I'll bet 99% of people would be happy that they got channel logos on the major OTA and cable networks and just leave it at that.


If you would re-read my post, you would see that I was talking about the "major OTA" channels. I contacted TiVo about multiple OTA channels (ABC, FOX, The CW). I mentioned that WRBL-DT2 3-2, which had a CBS logo was NOT a CBS station... only WRBL-DT 3-1 was. TiVo added the Des Moines MeTV logo... I certainly didn't expect them to, as I had read repeatedly that TiVo just didn't offer logos for MeTV... I simply informed them that the CBS logo was incorrect.

I did later inform them that they added the logo for the Des Moines affiliate of MeTV instead of the generic national logo, but they don't appear to be concerned about it...



DevdogAZ said:


> I have no idea why you'd go through the trouble to report incorrect or missing logos for random local subchannels. That seems like a major waste of your time and TiVo's time.


I do not subscribe to Cable... I couldn't if I wanted to (it's not available at my location) and I don't like incorrect things. I don't like seeing a MeTV channel with a FOX logo on it for months and months and months, with a history telling me that it won't get changed. One of the stations I contacted them about last year had a logo for The CW, when that station had lost it's affiliation with The CW in 2006. As I stated in the post you quoted, TiVo still has guide data for an analog channel in my lineup... these things won't get corrected unless someone actually makes an effort to get it corrected.

Also... sub-channels are very rarely "random". These are national networks that aren't always sub-channels. MeTV is the primary affiliation for WTLH-DT in Tallahassee, FL. Most markets have a MeTV affiliation... it's not like someone's asking for a logo for a station's radar channel or the logo for a local Independent station. I truly believe that TiVo should add logos for channels like MeTV, Antenna TV, Grit, Bounce, Comet, etc. Most markets have a good amount of these, it not all of them...

Also, my time is my business, and if TiVo doesn't want to take the time dealing with logos, they need to remove all logos off TiVos. If they are going to keep logos, it shouldn't be too much to ask to keep them correct!


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

rainwater said:


> I know because TiVo has told me when I requested logo updates.


So a phone CSR told you and you believe them. Good for you!


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

Alan Gordon said:


> TiVo hates me! In fact, TiVo is considering selling itself in order to get away from me!!
> 
> If you would re-read my post, you would see that I was talking about the "major OTA" channels. I contacted TiVo about multiple OTA channels (ABC, FOX, The CW). I mentioned that WRBL-DT2 3-2, which had a CBS logo was NOT a CBS station... only WRBL-DT 3-1 was. TiVo added the Des Moines MeTV logo... I certainly didn't expect them to, as I had read repeatedly that TiVo just didn't offer logos for MeTV... I simply informed them that the CBS logo was incorrect.
> 
> I did later inform them that they added the logo for the Des Moines affiliate of MeTV instead of the generic national logo, but they don't appear to be concerned about it...
> 
> I do not subscribe to Cable... I couldn't if I wanted to (it's not available at my location) and I don't like incorrect things. I don't like seeing a MeTV channel with a FOX logo on it for months and months and months, with a history telling me that it won't get changed. One of the stations I contacted them about last year had a logo for The CW, when that station had lost it's affiliation with The CW in 2006. As I stated in the post you quoted, TiVo still has guide data for an analog channel in my lineup... these things won't get corrected unless someone actually makes an effort to get it corrected.
> 
> Also... sub-channels are very rarely "random". These are national networks that aren't always sub-channels. MeTV is the primary affiliation for WTLH-DT in Tallahassee, FL. Most markets have a MeTV affiliation... it's not like someone's asking for a logo for a station's radar channel or the logo for a local Independent station. I truly believe that TiVo should add logos for channels like MeTV, Antenna TV, Grit, Bounce, Comet, etc. Most markets have a good amount of these, it not all of them...
> 
> Also, my time is my business, and if TiVo doesn't want to take the time dealing with logos, they need to remove all logos off TiVos. If they are going to keep logos, it shouldn't be too much to ask to keep them correct!


Let's put on our thinking cap and use some common sense.

If TiVo requests logos from the TV Stations or Networks, why would they request the logo from KCCI-TV in Des Moines for WRBL-TV in Albany, Ga?

Does it seem more likely that 1) TiVo requested the KCCI logo for WRBL 2) WRBL sent them TiVo the KCCI logo for some unknown reason or 3) TiVo punched in the wrong number for the WRBL logo in the GraceNote Art library they use and brought up the wrong graphic?

Which makes more sense.


----------



## rainwater

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> So a phone CSR told you and you believe them. Good for you!


No, a TiVo employee not a CSR.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

rainwater said:


> No, a TiVo employee not a CSR.


Oh a TiVo CSR, lol


----------



## Alan Gordon

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Let's put on our thinking cap and use some common sense.
> 
> If TiVo requests logos from the TV Stations or Networks, why would they request the logo from KCCI-TV in Des Moines for WRBL-TV in Albany, Ga?
> 
> Does it seem more likely that 1) TiVo requested the KCCI logo for WRBL 2) WRBL sent them TiVo the KCCI logo for some unknown reason or 3) TiVo punched in the wrong number for the WRBL logo in the GraceNote Art library they use and brought up the wrong graphic?
> 
> Which makes more sense.


Not really pertinent to this conversation, but just for clarification's sake, WRBL-DT is in Columbus, GA, which is a separate market from Albany, GA.

I don't know why it happened, and I don't really care to be honest. A mistake was made, and I blame no one for it. Even if it says Des Moines, I like that the MeTV logo is there. It comes in handy, and it adds a little variety to the GUI instead of just multiple logos for CBS, ABC, NBC, PBS, FOX, and one for The CW.

In my channel list, one can scroll through the channels, and aside from three channels, most every station has the correct affiliation. I still find it funny that WTLH-DT in Tallahassee, FL is listed as a "Me TV Network" in the channel list, but has retained it's FOX logo from when it was their affiliation.


----------



## rainwater

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Oh a TiVo CSR, lol


I'm sorry you can't comprehend but I know the difference between TiVo support and a TiVo employee. In over 12 years I have called TiVo support 1 time (for a hardware issue). My communications about logos was with a real employee.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

rainwater said:


> I'm sorry you can't comprehend but I know the difference between TiVo support and a TiVo employee. In over 12 years I have called TiVo support 1 time (for a hardware issue). My communications about logos was with a real employee.


Reread post #152


----------



## rainwater

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Reread post #152


What does that have to do with you calling me a liar?


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

rainwater said:


> What does that have to do with you calling me a liar?


Blows your info out of the water.

BTW, techs are tivo employees, no contract employees.

And most are clueless.


----------



## ej42137

rainwater said:


> I'm sorry you can't comprehend but I know the difference between TiVo support and a TiVo employee. In over 12 years I have called TiVo support 1 time (for a hardware issue). My communications about logos was with a real employee.


Perhaps you should make it clear that you know that TiVo support has been outsourced, and is no longer provided by TiVo employees.

Edit: Or just keep doing what you are doing, it seems to be working.


----------



## rainwater

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Blows your info out of the water.
> 
> BTW, techs are tivo employees, no contract employees.
> 
> And most are clueless.


Perhaps but I didn't talk to a "tech". Continue your cluelessness. It's quite fun.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

rainwater said:


> Perhaps but I didn't talk to a "tech". Continue your cluelessness. It's quite fun.


Still missing the point of post 152.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> TiVo added the Des Moines MeTV logo... I certainly didn't expect them to, as I had read repeatedly that TiVo just didn't offer logos for MeTV... I simply informed them that the CBS logo was incorrect.
> 
> I did later inform them that they added the logo for the Des Moines affiliate of MeTV instead of the generic national logo, but they don't appear to be concerned about it...





SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Let's put on our thinking cap and use some common sense.
> 
> If TiVo requests logos from the TV Stations or Networks, why would they request the logo from KCCI-TV in Des Moines for WRBL-TV in Albany, Ga?
> 
> Does it seem more likely that 1) TiVo requested the KCCI logo for WRBL 2) WRBL sent them TiVo the KCCI logo for some unknown reason or 3) TiVo punched in the wrong number for the WRBL logo in the GraceNote Art library they use and brought up the wrong graphic?
> 
> Which makes more sense.





Alan Gordon said:


> Not really pertinent to this conversation, but just for clarification's sake, WRBL-DT is in Columbus, GA, which is a separate market from Albany, GA.
> 
> I don't know why it happened, and I don't really care to be honest. A mistake was made, and I blame no one for it. Even if it says Des Moines, I like that the MeTV logo is there. It comes in handy, and it adds a little variety to the GUI instead of just multiple logos for CBS, ABC, NBC, PBS, FOX, and one for The CW.
> 
> In my channel list, one can scroll through the channels, and aside from three channels, most every station has the correct affiliation. I still find it funny that WTLH-DT in Tallahassee, FL is listed as a "Me TV Network" in the channel list, but has retained it's FOX logo from when it was their affiliation.


Today, TiVo made two changes to the logos in my lineup after reporting it earlier this year. One is the addition of the ION logo for WRBL-DT3 and the other is that they finally switched out the FOX logo on WTHL-DT 49-1 from FOX to MeTV, but the logo on WTLH-DT (Tallahassee, FL) is the same MeTV Des Moines logo that WRBL-DT3 (Columbus, GA) has, so what makes more sense?

I'm still waiting on one other logo change.


----------



## ajwees41

May 15th and still have guide data.


----------



## DevdogAZ

ajwees41 said:


> May 15th and still have guide data.


You're a month early.


----------



## tampa8

ajwees41 said:


> May 15th and still have guide data.


Can you let me know who will be in the Stanley Cup finals, Thanks.


----------



## MikeBear

tampa8 said:


> Can you let me know who will be in the Stanley Cup finals, Thanks.


Heck with that, what's the Powerball numbers for next month? lol


----------



## JoeKustra

Progress. I see the logo for TBS has been fixed. Still need MSNBC and HD NET Movies.


----------



## foghorn2

JoeKustra said:


> Progress. I see the logo for TBS has been fixed. Still need MSNBC and HD NET Movies.


I have MSNBC. I think the problem is the way the plant sends the station call letters. If its off, the logo wont appear.

For example If they add a "p" for pacific at the end, the Logo wont appear.


----------



## JoeKustra

foghorn2 said:


> I have MSNBC. I think the problem is the way the plant sends the station call letters. If its off, the logo wont appear.
> 
> For example If they add a "p" for pacific at the end, the Logo wont appear.


I'm not worried about missing logos. I have a lot of indie stations. It's the old wrong logos that need fixing. I had COMET for a few weeks, then that was pulled by the station so they could keep their call letters in the bug. I'm just glad something has changed.


----------



## JoeKustra

Why is the CBS logo now blue? Is there a holiday? Maybe an election statement?


----------



## Diana Collins

JoeKustra said:


> Why is the CBS logo now blue? Is there a holiday? Maybe an election statement?


Blue is the official color of the CBS "eye." Here it is on screen during the CBE Morning news last fall:










It is always blue, unless presented in monochrome, where it will be black or white, depending on the background.


----------



## JoeKustra

Diana Collins said:


> Blue is the official color of the CBS "eye." Here it is on screen during the CBE Morning news last fall:


Thanks. I guess that's one more logo that TiVo has corrected. I'm still waiting for MSNBC and HDNET Movies.


----------



## Alan Gordon

JoeKustra said:


> Thanks. I guess that's one more logo that TiVo has corrected. I'm still waiting for MSNBC and HDNET Movies.


CBS wasn't the only logo to go through a change.

FOX is now gray instead of white, and both the ABC and NBC logos have changed as well in the last week or so. All three logos (and possibly CBS as well) have been reduced in size too.

The NBC logo looks alright in the Playlist and such, but the logo looks horrible in the Guide IMO. NBC looks freaking tiny compared to other logos in my Guide. They really didn't need to reduce the size of ANY of them. There was PLENTY of room.


----------



## JoeKustra

Alan Gordon said:


> CBS wasn't the only logo to go through a change.
> 
> FOX is now gray instead of white, and both the ABC and NBC logos have changed as well in the last week or so. All three logos (and possibly CBS as well) have been reduced in size too.
> 
> The NBC logo looks alright in the Playlist and such, but the logo looks horrible in the Guide IMO. NBC looks freaking tiny compared to other logos in my Guide, but they really didn't need to reduce the size of ANY of them. There was PLENTY of room.


I think CBS is still changing even on their own shows. Check CBS This Morning. It has a yellow logo for a few seconds, then it's covered by the new blue one. Yeah, it would be hard to make NBC any smaller.


----------



## rainwater

JoeKustra said:


> Yeah, it would be hard to make NBC any smaller.


BBC World News HD (BBCWLDH) takes the cake for smallest logo that can't be comprehended. I don't know why they even bother having the logo there. It just looks like a tiny red square unless you put your face up to your tv. At least the NBC logo is slightly recognizable.


----------



## JoeKustra

rainwater said:


> BBC World News HD (BBCWLDH) takes the cake for smallest logo that can't be comprehended. I don't know why they even bother having the logo there. It just looks like a tiny red square unless you put your face up to your tv. At least the NBC logo is slightly recognizable.


Only because it's in color. Even the bird on MSNBC is larger.  It could be worse:

M
S
NBC

That's about 15 years ago.


----------



## modnar

Is there a place I can view Rovi's listings for my area to see how accurate they are?


----------



## JoeKustra

modnar said:


> Is there a place I can view Rovi's listings for my area to see how accurate they are?


I would love a second opinion also. Here's their customers:
http://www.rovicorp.com/customers.html


----------



## Jed1

modnar said:


> Is there a place I can view Rovi's listings for my area to see how accurate they are?


http://www.tvguide.com/listings/

Next to Provider click on change and enter your zip code and then select your cable provider. These are going to be really out of date as Rovi stopped updating the cable listing when they shut down TVGOS in 2013.

Another problem is Rovi sold the TVGuide website and now it is owned by CBS Corp so it will be extremely hard to get the listing updated.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Jed1 said:


> http://www.tvguide.com/listings/
> 
> Next to Provider click on change and enter your zip code and then select your cable provider. These are going to be really out of date as Rovi stopped updating the cable listing when they shut down TVGOS in 2013.
> 
> Another problem is Rovi sold the TVGuide website and now it is owned by CBS Corp so it will be extremely hard to get the listing updated.


How is this a valid way to check Rovi's data if it hasn't been updated in three years and no longer belongs to Rovi?


----------



## Jed1

DevdogAZ said:


> How is this a valid way to check Rovi's data if it hasn't been updated in three years and no longer belongs to Rovi?


Because data comes from Rovi. The data is not only the guide listings it also includes the channel lineups. If you have WMC check your cable listing to what is on that site and they will be the same. This is why I don't use WMC anymore because the listings are from 2013. I have tried to get the listings updated but nobody ever responds to my emails. I just tried three weeks ago and have not heard anything back so I gave up. 
When Rovi dumped the TV Guide On Screen service that was in retail devices, they stopped updating the listings as the guide service was mainly used for OTA listings. The contacts I had at Rovi were all let go when that service was ended.
All of Rovis business is dealing with the MSOs and they have no dealings with retail customers so I do not see them to continue with retail TiVo owners to far in the future.
They are buying TiVo in order to use the User Interface to replace the old I Guide and Passport Echo Software that is currently being used in a lot of MSO cable boxes. The I Guide and Passport Echo software was acquired when they bought Gemstar who owned TVGuide.


----------



## smark

Jed1 said:


> Because data comes from Rovi. The data is not only the guide listings it also includes the channel lineups. If you have WMC check your cable listing to what is on that site and they will be the same. This is why I don't use WMC anymore because the listings are from 2013. I have tried to get the listings updated but nobody ever responds to my emails. I just tried three weeks ago and have not heard anything back so I gave up.
> When Rovi dumped the TV Guide On Screen service that was in retail devices, they stopped updating the listings as the guide service was mainly used for OTA listings. The contacts I had at Rovi were all let go when that service was ended.
> All of Rovis business is dealing with the MSOs and they have no dealings with retail customers so I do not see them to continue with retail TiVo owners to far in the future.
> They are buying TiVo in order to use the User Interface to replace the old I Guide and Passport Echo Software that is currently being used in a lot of MSO cable boxes. The I Guide and Passport Echo software was acquired when they bought Gemstar who owned TVGuide.


I looked at my area and the listings look updated. Comet for example is listed and that is a new channel.


----------



## Alan Gordon

smark said:


> I looked at my area and the listings look updated. Comet for example is listed and that is a new channel.


Both Comet and Grit TV that have launched in my market in the last several months are listed on TV Guide as well.

HOWEVER, the problem with TV Guide has always been the same... I receive channels from (at least) three different markets, but TV Guide only provides me with guide data for my own (plus an Atlanta DMA station for some reason). I may literally wake up one morning with _guide data_ for 1/4 (or less) of the channels I can receive OTA.

To make matters worse, I cannot receive my market's CBS OTA as they do not provide a very large broadcast coverage area, so if TIVO uses the Rovi guide data that TV Guide uses, all my CBS OnePasses will be rendered worthless and I'll be forced to do manual recordings until such a time as I can get TIVO to (hopefully) add these channels to my lineup.


----------



## JoeKustra

smark said:


> I looked at my area and the listings look updated. Comet for example is listed and that is a new channel.


That's better than I get on TiVo/zap2it for Comet. TitanTV also has Comet.


----------



## TonyD79

I use the TV Guide app on my iphone when travelling. It has been dependable.


----------



## jcthorne

Alan Gordon said:


> Both Comet and Grit TV that have launched in my market in the last several months are listed on TV Guide as well.
> 
> HOWEVER, the problem with TV Guide has always been the same... I receive channels from (at least) three different markets, but TV Guide only provides me with guide data for my own (plus an Atlanta DMA station for some reason). I may literally wake up one morning with 1/4 (or less) of the channels I can receive OTA.
> 
> To make matters worse, I cannot receive my market's CBS OTA as they do not provide a very large broadcast coverage area, so if TIVO uses the Rovi guide data that TV Guide uses, all my CBS OnePasses will be rendered worthless and I'll be forced to do manual recordings until such a time as I can get TIVO to (hopefully) add these channels to my lineup.


Tivo does not add channels to OTA line up based on location lookup tables. They are based on psid tags in the data stream picked up when the tivo does the channel scan from your antenna. IE you will have data for stations you actually get no matter if they are in your 'area' or not.


----------



## Alan Gordon

jcthorne said:


> Tivo does not add channels to OTA line up based on location lookup tables. They are based on psid tags in the data stream picked up when the tivo does the channel scan from your antenna. IE you will have data for stations you actually get no matter if they are in your 'area' or not.


I was confused as all get out about your post until I re-read mine (I will go back and edit my post).

I KNOW I will have access to said channels via the TIVO. I was referring to GUIDE DATA. I will have to setup manual recordings on several channels until Rov... err, TIVO, re-adds them to my channel lineup and I can use OnePasses again.


----------



## JoeKustra

jcthorne said:


> Tivo does not add channels to OTA line up based on location lookup tables. They are based on psid tags in the data stream picked up when the tivo does the channel scan from your antenna. IE you will have data for stations you actually get no matter if they are in your 'area' or not.


I have a Premiere set for OTA and cable just for fun. I have done a scan, with no channels found. My channel list and guide includes stations I will never receive without a 500 foot tower. Some are 100 miles away and under 10 kw. I don't believe TiVo cares what you receive, only where you live.


----------



## kokishin

Jed1 said:


> http://www.tvguide.com/listings/
> 
> Next to Provider click on change and enter your zip code and then select your cable provider. These are going to be really out of date as Rovi stopped updating the cable listing when they shut down TVGOS in 2013.
> 
> Another problem is Rovi sold the TVGuide website and now it is owned by CBS Corp so it will be extremely hard to get the listing updated.


I checked Comcast in my area. Based on a brief perusal, the guide data seemed up to date. I did observe that Tivo has more channel logos though.


----------



## aaronwt

kokishin said:


> I checked Comcast in my area. Based on a brief perusal, the guide data seemed up to date. I did observe that Tivo has more channel logos though.


I just checked FiOS in my area for tonight. It seems to match what shows up on my TiVo. So I guess I don't see a problem except for the actual process of switching from GraceNote.


----------



## Alan Gordon

kokishin said:


> I did observe that Tivo has more channel logos though.


Mine was mixed. Obviously, I get more channels with the GraceNote guide than TV Guide, but of the channels in common, it was a mixed bag.

Zap2it and TiVo have the logo for ABC and The CW which TV Guide (online) does not. TV Guide has the logos for Grit and Comet, which Zap2it and TiVo do not.

I don't think it really matters about logos though, since TiVo's the one doing the adding and removing of logos.


----------



## morac

I checked the listing and they seem correct, but I think the real test will be when channel changes are made. Currently changes that Comcast makes show up the day of the change, based on the change notifications in my bill. That wasn't always the case, but it's been pretty consistent for years now. Will that still happen?

My understanding is that Comcast sends out change notifications to Gracenote and I guess Rovi and it's up to those companies to push those changes out to their customers in a timely manner. Is Rovi as good at doing that as Gracenote?


----------



## Space

morac said:


> I checked the listing and they seem correct, but I think the real test will be when channel changes are made. Currently changes that Comcast makes show up the day of the change, based on the change notifications in my bill. That wasn't always the case, but it's been pretty consistent for years now. Will that still happen?
> 
> My understanding is that Comcast sends out change notifications to Gracenote and I guess Rovi and it's up to those companies to push those changes out to their customers in a timely manner. Is Rovi as good at doing that as Gracenote?


Absolutely not to both questions.

I have a channel that was added to my lineup over a moth ago and it just got added yesterday to the Rovi lineup (FiOS).


----------



## TonyD79

Space said:


> Absolutely not to both questions. I have a channel that was added to my lineup over a moth ago and it just got added yesterday to the Rovi lineup (FiOS).


What channel was that? Local or national?


----------



## morac

I really don't know how TiVo expects to switch off of Gracenote. Do they expect every TiVo customer to re-run guided setup?


----------



## Jrr6415sun

why exactly is guide data so expensive? I mean there's only so many channels and time slots, it can't take that much work.


----------



## JoeKustra

Jrr6415sun said:


> why exactly is guide data so expensive? I mean there's only so many channels and time slots, it can't take that much work.


Try this. Go to www.zap2it.com. Enter your zipcode. How many options are presented for a lineup? Just two? Or more if you have a DMA that spans several counties and providers. Imagine having a database, changing daily, for all the zipcodes and headends in the U.S. to maintain. A person could make money with such a database.


----------



## ajwees41

Space said:


> Absolutely not to both questions.
> 
> I have a channel that was added to my lineup over a moth ago and it just got added yesterday to the Rovi lineup (FiOS).


are you sure Rovi provides the guide data? Cox has Rovi guides, but uses TMS/Gracenote for guide data


----------



## markjrenna

MSO's... Cable/Satellite operators create their own guide or use a third party guide. The guide data (for what's on TV) is independent of the guide itself.

FiOS, for example, used Microsoft's guide before 2008 and used FYI for guide data. From 2008 on, FiOS created their own guide (IMG) and used FYI for guide data. In 2014 FiOS switched guide providers from FYI to TMS (now Gracenote) and continues to use their own IMG guide.


----------



## lew

morac said:


> I really don't know how TiVo expects to switch off of Gracenote. Do they expect every TiVo customer to re-run guided setup?


Why do you think a change in guide data suppliers will require a re run of setup?


----------



## astrohip

lew said:


> Why do you think a change in guide data suppliers will require a re run of setup?


I don't think any of us know what will happen. There's been much discussion on how easy (or hard) it will be for TiVo's current code to work with a new DB. This discussion alone shows we don't really know anything, just speculation

* We don't know if they will change guide suppliers

* We don't know if they do change, if we will have as much info as before, or the same, or more

* We don't know if they do change, if it will "fit in the slots" that currently exist in our TiVo's code, or if it will require an update

* We don't know if that update (if there is one) will require a simple reboot, or if it will require rerunning some part of the setup process.

We know nothing. All the speculation in this thread is interesting, but ultimately, just speculation. Until more information is forthcoming, it is futile to answer with an absolute.


----------



## JoeKustra

astrohip said:


> We know nothing. All the speculation in this thread is interesting, but ultimately, just speculation. Until more information is forthcoming, it is futile to answer with an absolute.


Facts are so boring. Guessing is much more fun. Knowing the unknowable is the best.


----------



## schatham

JoeKustra said:


> Facts are so boring. Guessing is much more fun. Knowing the unknowable is the best.


Fact ) Tivo will be using Rovi guide

From the Tivo press release:

"adding more than 10 million TiVo-served households to Rovi's current base of approximately 18 million households using Rovi guides worldwide"


----------



## HobokenSkier

morac said:


> I really don't know how TiVo expects to switch off of Gracenote. Do they expect every TiVo customer to re-run guided setup?


This is a back end change the table your TiVo is fed will remain the same. The source data going to that table will change.


----------



## WO312

astrohip said:


> We know nothing.


We are all Jon Snow.


----------



## jcthorne

HobokenSkier said:


> This is a back end change the table your TiVo is fed will remain the same. The source data going to that table will change.


Actually it can't remain the same.

Tivo currently uses a unique identifier for every video it deals with. Every episode of every tv show, every movie etc. Its called the programId. These identifiers are also used by Amazon, Netflix, Hulu and most of the other major video suppliers and all the national networks. TMS (Gracenote) OWN those identifiers and its the mechanism by which one pass and tivo universal search works at all. Rovi does not have this data to provide to Tivo, its far more complex than upcoming linear tv listings. Rovi may be able to provide guide data, but it cannot provide the historical cross platform index that Gracenote does.

I predict some significant road bumps in the months ahead as the transistion takes place, and not in missed recordings.


----------



## HobokenSkier

jcthorne said:


> Actually it can't remain the same.
> 
> Tivo currently uses a unique identifier for every video it deals with. Every episode of every tv show, every movie etc. Its called the programId. These identifiers are also used by Amazon, Netflix, Hulu and most of the other major video suppliers and all the national networks. TMS (Gracenote) OWN those identifiers and its the mechanism by which one pass and tivo universal search works at all. Rovi does not have this data to provide to Tivo, its far more complex than upcoming linear tv listings. Rovi may be able to provide guide data, but it cannot provide the historical cross platform index that Gracenote does.
> 
> I predict some significant road bumps in the months ahead as the transistion takes place, and not in missed recordings.


So TiVo/ Rovi continue to licence the Programid data and inject it into the rovi data?


----------



## tarheelblue32

HobokenSkier said:


> So TiVo/ Rovi continue to licence the Programid data and inject it into the rovi data?


This might be a workaround short term. Longer term, I think TiVo will try to build their own ID number system and maintain a conversion chart to link each TiVo/Rovi ID number with a corresponding Gracenote ID number. But that's going to take time to implement properly. TiVo is going to have a big job on its hands trying to fix everything that is wrong with the Rovi guide data system. Hopefully they are up to the challenge.


----------



## HobokenSkier

tarheelblue32 said:


> This might be a workaround short term. Longer term, I think TiVo will try to build their own ID number system and maintain a conversion chart to link each TiVo/Rovi ID number with a corresponding Gracenote ID number. But that's going to take time to implement properly. TiVo is going to have a big job on its hands trying to fix everything that is wrong with the Rovi guide data system. Hopefully they are up to the challenge.


Similar to the isin to ticker other national security ids / dtcc numbers in the finance world.


----------



## lpwcomp

Missing/changed _*seriesIds*_ is going to be a more serious issue.


----------



## TonyD79

Does anyone know for sure that rovi has not developed an analogous system or are we supposing again?


----------



## jcthorne

HobokenSkier said:


> So TiVo/ Rovi continue to licence the Programid data and inject it into the rovi data?


Could be.


----------



## jcthorne

TonyD79 said:


> Does anyone know for sure that rovi has not developed an analogous system or are we supposing again?


The trouble is, when you have a onepass item in your my shows list that is a streaming item, Tivo plays the item by TMS id tag on Netflix. Netflix referres to the specific episode by the same id tag that tivo currently does. So does amazon, vudo and Hulu. Tivo cannot call the TMS id tag to play the video on netflix unless it knows what it is. I dare say they could not USE the tag to call the video if they no longer have a licence to USE it.

IE without the Gracenote data, tivo cannot currently call the next episode of your series from netflix to play directly. IE onepass and universal search no longer work without them.

Even if Rovi has an analogous data base, it would need to use its own identifiers, and you could not use those rovi identifiers to call the video from amazon or netflix as these services do not use them. They use TMSid tags.


----------



## lpwcomp

TonyD79 said:


> Does anyone know for sure that rovi has not developed an analogous system or are we supposing again?


Irrelevant.


----------



## tarheelblue32

jcthorne said:


> The trouble is, when you have a onepass item in your my shows list that is a streaming item, Tivo plays the item by TMS id tag on Netflix. Netflix referres to the specific episode by the same id tag that tivo currently does. So does amazon, vudo and Hulu. Tivo cannot call the TMS id tag to play the video on netflix unless it knows what it is. I dare say they could not USE the tag to call the video if they no longer have a licence to USE it.


I don't know that's necessarily true. TiVo couldn't use the TMS ID numbers in its own guide data without a license, but there shouldn't be a reason they can't use the ID to call up a certain video from Amazon or Hulu. Amazon and Hulu pay for the license to use the TMS ID to identify content. The problem is knowing which ID to use. I'm sure Rovi probably has a similar ID system, but the real question is do they have a master list that corresponds each Rovi ID with each Gracenote ID.


----------



## lpwcomp

tarheelblue32 said:


> I don't know that's necessarily true. TiVo couldn't use the TMS ID numbers in its own guide data without a license, but there shouldn't be a reason they can't use the ID to call up a certain video from Amazon or Hulu. Amazon and Hulu pay for the license to use the TMS ID to identify content. The problem is knowing which ID to use. I'm sure Rovi probably has a similar ID system, but the real question is do they have a master list that corresponds each Rovi ID with each Gracenote ID.


The Gracenote/TMS seriesId and programId are ;part of the guide data and are therefore covered by the copyright on that data. You simply cannot use them w/o a valid license. Maybe they can continue to use them for existing series/episodes. New ones, not so much.


----------



## tarheelblue32

lpwcomp said:


> The Gracenote/TMS seriesId and programId are ;part of the guide data and are therefore covered by the copyright on that data. You simply cannot use them w/o a valid license. Maybe they can continue to use them for existing series/episodes. New ones, not so much.


They can't include Gracenote ID numbers in the Rovi guide data, but there is nothing stopping them from using a specific Gracenote ID number to call up a certain program from Amazon or Netflix if they know the ID number. So if they have their own Rovi ID in their guide and you want to pull up that same show on the Amazon app that uses a Gracenote ID (which Amazon has already paid the license fee to include), if they have a master list of the 2 ID systems, they can use the Rovi ID to look up what the corresponding Gracenote ID is and then send that to Amazon to pull up the program. That shouldn't constitute a copyright infringement.


----------



## lpwcomp

tarheelblue32 said:


> They can't use them in their guide data, but there is nothing stopping them from using a specific ID number to call up a certain program from Amazon or Netflix if they know the ID number. So if they have their own Rovi ID in their guide and you want to pull up that same show on the Amazon app that uses a Gracenote ID, if they have a master list of the 2 ID systems, they can use the Rovi ID to look up what the corresponding Gracenote ID is and then send that to Amazon to pull up the program. That shouldn't constitute a copyright infringement.


How do they build this master list w/o using the Gracenote ID?.


----------



## tarheelblue32

lpwcomp said:


> How do they build this master list w/o using the Gracenote ID?.


The copyright protects the Gracenote ID from being tied to a specific program. A master list would not do that. A master list would tie a Gracenote ID to a Rovi ID, and then the Rovi ID would be tied to a specific program. The difficulty is in building the master list.


----------



## lpwcomp

tarheelblue32 said:


> The copyright protects the Gracenote ID from being tied to a specific program. A master list would not do that. A master list would tie a Gracenote ID to a Rovi ID, and then the Rovi ID would be tied to a specific program.


No, the copyright prevents you from using the data.

Besides,

A. just because it's indirect, it's still tied to a specific program.

B. How are you getting the Gracenote ID to build this cross reference list?


----------



## tarheelblue32

lpwcomp said:


> No, the copyright prevents you from using the data. Besides,just because it's indirect, it's still tied to a specific program.


Copyright does not prevent you from using data, it prevents you from copying data. In this case, Gracenote's copyright would prevent Rovi from copying those ID numbers into their own programming data. But if they aren't copying Gracenote's ID numbers into their own program data, there is no copyright infringement.


----------



## lpwcomp

tarheelblue32 said:


> Copyright does not prevent you from using data, it prevents you from copying data. If I own a book that is copyrighted, I can still use that book, I just can't copy that program.


You do not have legitimate access to the data.

How are you using the program w/o copying it?


----------



## Space

TonyD79 said:


> What channel was that? Local or national?


The network is UP HD, and I made a mistake, it was added to the lineup last month, but it STILL has NOT been added to the Rovi lineup for FiOS (VHO7).
The more popular the network, the more quickly it gets added to Rovi. I assume this is because they get more/earlier complaints to add it from customers, not because they are being proactive.



ajwees41 said:


> are you sure Rovi provides the guide data? Cox has Rovi guides, but uses TMS/Gracenote for guide data


I am referring to the Rovi data that is used by Windows Media Center (WMC), so yes, it is Rovi sourced data.

Looking at the transition that WMC made (in July of 2015) from Gracenote data to Rovi data would be a good thing to do to get some idea of how a similar transition for TiVo might go.

As for the seriesId that is used for each unique series, when the WMC transition occurred, some Series (Season Passes in TiVo), continued to work, but others had to be deleted and recreated.

So I am assuming that there is some sort of lookup table to convert between seriesId formats, but it is incomplete. Also, I don't believe the unique episode IDs were converted, so any history of individual episodes that were already recorded was gone.


----------



## JWhites

Why has no one from TiVo officially come on here and put our fears to rest? Is TiVo going to screw everyone over? Have they already and we haven't noticed yet?


----------



## lessd

JWhites said:


> Why has no one from TiVo officially come on here and put our fears to rest? Is TiVo going to screw everyone over? Have they already and we haven't noticed yet?


If no problem, no fears, TiVo never said anything about GraceNote, so if TiVo gives at least the guide data we are getting now, no problem and no reason for TiVo to make any comment.


----------



## foghorn2

We're making up our own drama.

The power of the internets- mass delusion and hysteria.


----------



## morac

foghorn2 said:


> We're making up our own drama.
> 
> The power of the internets- mass delusion and hysteria.


"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." --Abraham Lincoln


----------



## TonyD79

morac said:


> "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." --Abraham Lincoln


I believe he wrote that on snapchat.


----------



## lew

People in this thread love TMS and hate Rovi. Only a small number of posters have any real experience with Rovi. I'd think Rovi learned from their experiences with Windows.

One poster said you have to look hard to find the issues with Rovis guide data. In the last week or so I missed an episode of Blue Bloods and the recording I made of Jurassic World wound up being HBO boxing. Several posters are complaining about delays in updating the guide with basketball and hockey playoffs. Look and you'll find issues with our current guide data.

There will be some issues with whatever guide service we wind up using.

I'm sure Rovi and Tivo are aware of IP, copyright law, licensing and fair use. I'm sure they have a game plan for handling the issue of program ID. They could license the TMS database, either cash or cross license Rovi/Tivo IP. They could come up with their own numbers.

My concern. Will a change in data providers require a software update. Maybe to replace TMS program IDs with Rovi ID numbers? If so will an update be provided to the old Tivo HD (and earlier) units.


----------



## markjrenna

The Gracenote data has been correct. The issue, as I have stated a few times, is that YOUR TiVo connects to the data servers at TiVo corporate once automatically every 22 to 26 hours. Gracenote data is ingested to TiVo servers by 11 am daily so if YOUR TiVo was to connect in at 10 am, there would be NO update for YOUR TiVo. Hence Playoff games are going to be missed as YOUR TiVo doesn't know about them.

A work around is to Force a Service connection after 11 AM daily, so that YOUR TiVo gets the updated guide data.

TiVo, the company, needs to change this 22 to 26 hour checking time frame. All TiVo's need to make a Service connection daily between 11 AM and 6 pm to ensure the guide data on YOUR TiVo is current.

I have communicated this to TiVo ( no not customer service reps ) in hopes the will look at this with more urgency.

Maybe Rovi will do a better job, fingers crossed.



lew said:


> ...Several posters are complaining about delays in updating the guide with basketball and hockey playoffs...


----------



## TonyD79

Great post. I often force a refresh for playoffs and now I know when it should be done.


----------



## JoeKustra

My experience with Rovi, several years ago, was a connection done daily at 2am. I'd ask someone with a DVR+ for current information. That DVR can also force a connection at any time.

It has been posted that the guide end time varies. Mine ends at 2pm EDT or 1pm EST. It has also been posted, and seems true, that new data becomes available after 3:30pm Eastern. With two Roamio boxes, I can find no specific and consistent time for any updates. That also has been observed on threads where the update seems to "lose" a day or two. With a 12 day guide TiVo doesn't give it a very high priority. Rovi supplies a 14 day guide to the DVR+. What is consistent is that a guide connection happens at about 26 hours and no updates happen from 6pm to 2am.

The exact definition of the length of the guide also varies. If a guide ends at 2am, should that day count? Should a guide that ends next Monday be a 7 day guide or 8 day guide? Should previous days be counted? My guide has information back until 4/29. Lotsa questions.


----------



## lew

markjrenna said:


> The Gracenote data has been correct. The issue, as I have stated a few times, is that YOUR TiVo connects to the data servers at TiVo corporate once automatically every 22 to 26 hours. Gracenote data is ingested to TiVo servers by 11 am daily so if YOUR TiVo was to connect in at 10 am, there would be NO update for YOUR TiVo. Hence Playoff games are going to be missed as YOUR TiVo doesn't know about them.


Blue Bloods didn't record. I don't think there was a last minute schedule change.

I think some of the posters are forcing connections in an attempt to get sports guide data.

I think the days of tivo innovations are behind us. Tivo has our to do lists. It would be nice if they could push last minute changes for shows we have scheduled to record.


----------



## JoeKustra

lew said:


> Blue Bloods didn't record. I don't think there was a last minute schedule change.
> 
> I think some of the posters are forcing connections in an attempt to get sports guide data.
> 
> I think the days of tivo innovations are behind us. Tivo has our to do lists. It would be nice if they could push last minute changes for shows we have scheduled to record.


The issue with Blue Bloods was noticed and a thread started over a week before the problem. I also added a post on the 1P east coast alert thread.

NBA teams were not updated until a few hours before they started the playoffs. That was bad. Maybe this year the NFL preseason will include teams. Last year it was 100% empty.


----------



## lew

JoeKustra said:


> The issue with Blue Bloods was noticed and a thread started over a week before the problem. I also added a post on the 1P east coast alert thread.
> 
> NBA teams were not updated until a few hours before they started the playoffs. That was bad. Maybe this year the NFL preseason will include teams. Last year it was 100% empty.


That's my point. The guide data was wrong. You make a good point with regards to the NFL and NBA.

My point..Gracenote data isn't as perfect as some posters think/claim. Likewise I doubt Rovi is as bad as posters claim.


----------



## JoeKustra

lew said:


> That's my point. The guide data was wrong. You make a good point with regards to the NFL and NBA.
> 
> My point..Gracenote data isn't as perfect as some posters think/claim. Likewise I doubt Rovi is as bad as posters claim.


I agree with your point.


----------



## lpwcomp

lew said:


> That's my point. The guide data was wrong. You make a good point with regards to the NFL and NBA.
> 
> My point..Gracenote data isn't as perfect as some posters think/claim. Likewise I doubt Rovi is as bad as posters claim.


Straw man argument. No has claimed that Gracenote data is "perfect". People who have experience with both have said that Rovi data is worse.

I and some others have said that scheduling of SPs/1Ps and grouping with existing recordings (at least) are dependent on *values* for seriesId and programId available only from Gracenote.


----------



## cherry ghost

markjrenna said:


> The Gracenote data has been correct. The issue, as I have stated a few times, is that YOUR TiVo connects to the data servers at TiVo corporate once automatically every 22 to 26 hours. Gracenote data is ingested to TiVo servers by 11 am daily so if YOUR TiVo was to connect in at 10 am, there would be NO update for YOUR TiVo. Hence Playoff games are going to be missed as YOUR TiVo doesn't know about them.
> 
> A work around is to Force a Service connection after 11 AM daily, so that YOUR TiVo gets the updated guide data.
> 
> TiVo, the company, needs to change this 22 to 26 hour checking time frame. All TiVo's need to make a Service connection daily between 11 AM and 6 pm to ensure the guide data on YOUR TiVo is current.
> 
> I have communicated this to TiVo ( no not customer service reps ) in hopes the will look at this with more urgency.
> 
> Maybe Rovi will do a better job, fingers crossed.


I always thought it was 3:00 pm PT. I've never seen a forced connection before then get new info. Granted, I don't do it often.


----------



## markjrenna

Just to clarify... I should have used PST in my earlier post. In any event... TiVo servers ingest the Gracenote data at 6:30 am PST and it takes 3 hours to complete. Seems long but that is what they told me. So anytime after 9:30 am PST, the data will be current. I went with 11 am to be cautious.



cherry ghost said:


> I always thought it was 3:00 pm PT. I've never seen a forced connection before then get new info. Granted, I don't do it often.


----------



## lew

Space said:


> It is difficult to spot-check and find problems with Rovi data, as the problems are sporadic.





lpwcomp said:


> Straw man argument. No has claimed that Gracenote data is "perfect". People who have experience with both have said that Rovi data is worse.
> 
> I and some others have said that scheduling of SPs/1Ps and grouping with existing recordings (at least) are dependent on *values* for seriesId and programId available only from Gracenote.


I've read nothing which suggests Rovi is as bad as some of the posters imply. Missing a prime time network show, Blue Bloods. Not updating playoffs on a timely basis. Look carefully and I'm sure we'll find errors with any guide vendor. I'd hope Rovi learned from the Windows transition.

You, and others have commented regarding seriesId and programId. I don't understand your point. Is tivo unaware of the importance of identifying the program and series? Is rovi unaware? Of course not. Will there be a solution when/if tivo changes? Of course. Will there be a smooth transition? Maybe yes maybe no. 
I hope the change doesn't leave S3 and earlier units behind.


----------



## Skybolt

lew said:


> People in this thread love TMS and hate Rovi. Only a small number of posters have any real experience with Rovi. I'd think Rovi learned from their experiences with Windows. ...


Actually, Rovi only started last spring with WMC. I switched to Tivo this spring because of Rovi. Rovi has no learned anything there too new at the DVR guide update thing ...

I wouldn't go and say anyone loves TMS, there just the lesser of two evils. Right now with TMS, they can't get a few channels right. And forget about schedule conflicts when sports run late or makes last minute changes.

I just hope I don't have to re-make all of the one passes I just re-created switching to Tivo ...


----------



## bonscott87

lew said:


> I've read nothing which suggests Rovi is as bad as some of the posters imply.


It's not so much the guide data in terms of programs. It's the fact that pushing a year later Rovi still haven't added several subchannels to my market nor fixed the ones they broke when they took over guide data for WMC. TMS added within a week of going on air if not before. This is what we look forward to.

I got a Tivo Bolt to get away from Rovi....oh the irony....


----------



## Skybolt

bonscott87 said:


> ... I got a Tivo Bolt to get away from Rovi....oh the irony....


You and me both ....

A Romeo Pro and 5 mini's ... I am not looking forward to this!


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom

bonscott87 said:


> It's not so much the guide data in terms of programs. It's the fact that pushing a year later Rovi still haven't added several subchannels to my market nor fixed the ones they broke when they took over guide data for WMC. TMS added within a week of going on air if not before. This is what we look forward to.
> 
> I got a Tivo Bolt to get away from Rovi....oh the irony....


So it's all your fault?


----------



## HerronScott

TonyD79 said:


> I believe he wrote that on snapchat.


Nah couldn't have been because Lincoln used a Windows Phone and Snapchat hates Microsoft so no client. 

Scott


----------



## TonyD79

HerronScott said:


> Nah couldn't have been because Lincoln used a Windows Phone and Snapchat hates Microsoft so no client.  Scott


Forgot about his Microsoft endorsement deal.


----------



## schatham

My guide is now good until May 16. I guess this means their was some kind of extension past May 15.


----------



## lpwcomp

schatham said:


> My guide is now good until May 16. I guess this means their was some kind of extension past May 15.


No it doesn't.


----------



## JoeKustra

lpwcomp said:


> No it doesn't.


Very true. Wait until the week of 5/23.


----------



## markjrenna

Current Gracenote contract ends May 14. So they (Gracenote) will provide all data as it is now until that date. On May 15 either Gracenote or Rovi or whoever they (TiVo) sign a contract with (there are a few other guide data providers) will provide data from May 15 on.

Just because Rovi is buying TiVo doesn't mean anything until the deal closes in the 3rd quarter. Whoever TiVo signs a new or extended contract with is independent of the Rovi deal.



schatham said:


> My guide is now good until May 16. I guess this means their was some kind of extension past May 15.


----------



## tarheelblue32

markjrenna said:


> Just because Rovi is buying TiVo doesn't mean anything until the deal closes in the 3rd quarter. Whoever TiVo signs a new or extended contract with is independent of the Rovi deal.


Whom TiVo chooses to provide their guide data going forward will be heavily influenced by the Rovi deal.


----------



## morac

tarheelblue32 said:


> Whom TiVo chooses to provide their guide data going forward will be heavily influenced by the Rovi deal.


Switching providers isn't something that can be done on a split second decision. Remember Gracenote provides more than just guide data. They also provide all the thumbnail images. See Gracenote's TiVo page.

Also it makes little sense to wait until the old guide data license expires before signing a contract for a new one (especially if switching providers), so I expect a new contract has been in place for awhile now. As such it's likely the GraceNote license was renewed.


----------



## markjrenna

When running a business you take the best offer. And the best offer may indeed be Rovi as they assume the deal will go through. We will all find out very soon who they went with.

In any event, the Rovi deal is nothing more than intent, until it closes.



tarheelblue32 said:


> Whom TiVo chooses to provide their guide data going forward will be heavily influenced by the Rovi deal.


----------



## CoxInPHX

I am starting to see quite a few random "Generic" thumbnails in the UI and the Android App.

I anyone else seeing this?


----------



## morac

CoxInPHX said:


> I am starting to see quite a few random "Generic" thumbnails in the UI and the Android App.
> 
> I anyone else seeing this?


I haven't noticed any issues in the iOS app.


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom

CoxInPHX said:


> I am starting to see quite a few random "Generic" thumbnails in the UI and the Android App.
> 
> I anyone else seeing this?


I only noticed that on Monday when Cox Communications (and TimeWarner and other Providers) had severe issues with internet and phone services due to a multiple Fiber line cuts at their provider Level 3. This impacted from 3pm EST to 10pm EST. Even if it didnt impact internet connectivity it did impact several DNS servers and new connections based on name.

After forcing my Tivos to Network connect after services were restored all my generic thumbnails have gone away.


----------



## ss-stingray

Rovi may have inked a deal months ago to provide guide to Tivo. And while talking may have decided to buy Tivo. Only the DVR gods and Rovi know. For sure we are the last to know..........


----------



## foghorn2

Maybe this is why we had the discovery bar disappearing bug a few months ago?

A change in code to allow a different database?


----------



## jlb

morac said:


> I haven't noticed any issues in the iOS app.


I have. My app shows NO RECORDINGS AT ALL in the ToDo list. SPs are there but no data in todo. Guide data and to do list all fine on my TiVoHD.....


----------



## mrizzo80

JoeKustra said:


> Very true. Wait until the week of 5/23.


FWIW, I just checked some guide data for 5/23 for some "generic" shows. It looks identical to Friday, 5/20.

Weather Center Live on TWC (12pm-3pm EDT)
Power Lunch on CNBC (1pm-3pm EDT)


----------



## JoeKustra

mrizzo80 said:


> FWIW, I just checked some guide data for 5/23 for some "generic" shows. It looks identical to Friday, 5/20.
> 
> Weather Center Live on TWC (12pm-3pm EDT)
> Power Lunch on CNBC (1pm-3pm EDT)


I think the first time someone sees a block of "to be announced" in their guide we will see it posted quite fast. I hope it never comes to that.

I'm waiting for June 1. Most networks' prime time should be over by then. It's not like we have any options. When I heard that Rovi was going to kill my DHG is when I bought my first TiVo. It would really hurt to get my cable feed's DVR. Or go to a dish.


----------



## ajwees41

mrizzo80 said:


> FWIW, I just checked some guide data for 5/23 for some "generic" shows. It looks identical to Friday, 5/20.
> 
> Weather Center Live on TWC (12pm-3pm EDT)
> Power Lunch on CNBC (1pm-3pm EDT)


premiere has guide data for the 24th the last day it has data and go until 12:30P.M. can't go farther into the future so maybe there will be no guide data issues


----------



## TonyD79

Why would we expect the data to stop on the contract date. I would expect full data until the contract ends.


----------



## Jed1

TonyD79 said:


> Why would we expect the data to stop on the contract date. I would expect full data until the contract ends.


I agree with this. TMS will supply data right up to the 15th and then it will stop. If there is no new data after that then the guide will start to run out of data until there is none left.
This is how it was when Rovi stopped the TVGOS data. The data stopped and then it slowly ran out until the 7 following days passed by then the grid was empty.


----------



## NAPABFH

A friend of mine just had a new TiVo installed and when it updated the software it said welcome to your new TiVo with rovi guide and he said that the it is not the same as what's on the other TiVo that he has


----------



## lpwcomp

One of the entries under "Copyrights & Trademarks" on my Base Roamio is the following:



> Program guide data provided by Tribune Media Services, Inc.


----------



## foghorn2

NAPABFH said:


> A friend of mine just had a new TiVo installed and when it updated the software it said welcome to your new TiVo with rovi guide and he said that the it is not the same as what's on the other TiVo that he has


Sure its a TIVO?


----------



## NAPABFH

Yes it's a TiVo because it says TiVo right on the front of it


----------



## foghorn2

I'm doing a network call right now and its sure taking long to "Getting Info" and now "Loading info"....

Already had the latest firmware.


----------



## foghorn2

No guide change or any mention of Rovi.


----------



## NAPABFH

I called him and asked him and he said that the TiVo has the manufacturing date of April 2016


----------



## ajwees41

NAPABFH said:


> A friend of mine just had a new TiVo installed and when it updated the software it said welcome to your new TiVo with rovi guide and he said that the it is not the same as what's on the other TiVo that he has


is it a retail or cable company tivo? any way to get pics?


----------



## NAPABFH

It's a cable TV TiVo


----------



## ajwees41

NAPABFH said:


> It's a cable TV TiVo


i think RCN maybe they always seem to get updates before retail tivo's


----------



## mattack

markjrenna said:


> All TiVo's need to make a Service connection daily between 11 AM and 6 pm to ensure the guide data on YOUR TiVo is current.


Uhh, wouldn't this require far more server capacity?


----------



## morac

NAPABFH said:


> A friend of mine just had a new TiVo installed and when it updated the software it said welcome to your new TiVo with rovi guide and he said that the it is not the same as what's on the other TiVo that he has


Your friend is making things up.

For what it's worth my Roamio updated to the latest software 20.6.1.RC4 and the Copyrights & Trademarks screen still says "Program guide data provided by Tribune Media Services, Inc."


----------



## markjrenna

Yes and maybe some bandwidth too.



mattack said:


> Uhh, wouldn't this require far more server capacity?


----------



## NAPABFH

He doesn't have a Roamio
So why would you think that his software would be the same as yours


----------



## morac

NAPABFH said:


> He doesn't have a Roamio
> So why would you think that his software would be the same as yours


Because TiVo uses the same software for all their models released since the Premiere. The only ones on different software versions are the Series 3 and older models and that's because they don't get updates anymore.

https://support.tivo.com/articles/Essential_Summary/TiVo-Software-Version-Information


----------



## lew

morac said:


> Your friend is making things up.
> 
> For what it's worth my Roamio updated to the latest software 20.6.1.RC4 and the Copyrights & Trademarks screen still says "Program guide data provided by Tribune Media Services, Inc."


Do you have a RCN box? Is the box newly installed? If not your experience is irrelevant. The friend may mistaken.

The first poster to post something new is frequently accused of making it up or being wrong.

A newly installed unit might be able to use guide data from a new vendor before tivo is ready to convert guide data already on your tivo.

I'll share your skepticism until I read more reports but it's not impossible. Timing is about right to start new units with new vendor


----------



## JoeKustra

mattack said:


> Uhh, wouldn't this require far more server capacity?


My TiVo boxes are quite regular and predictable with their connection. They are always made from 2am to 6pm. The period is about (but never exactly) 26 hours. When my daily fix gets close to 6pm, a rollover to just after 2am happens. This is regular as .....

As for extra hits, what are those VCM connections every two to four hours?


----------



## ajwees41

morac said:


> Your friend is making things up.
> 
> For what it's worth my Roamio updated to the latest software 20.6.1.RC4 and the Copyrights & Trademarks screen still says "Program guide data provided by Tribune Media Services, Inc."


he said the Tivo is cable company owned not retail I think they get new features before retail Tivos


----------



## LoveGardenia

If cable companies start using TiVo software or boxes then Time Warner may be out of this deal. They use Gracenote date BUT this could change since the merger between Time Warner Cable and Charter has been approved.


----------



## ajwees41

LoveGardenia said:


> If cable companies start using TiVo software or boxes then Time Warner may be out of this deal. They use Gracenote date BUT this could change since the merger between Time Warner Cable and Charter has been approved.


this is not Arris/Motorola and Cisco running Tivo software but Tivo hardware and software provided by RCN.


----------



## morac

ajwees41 said:


> he said the Tivo is cable company owned not retail I think they get new features before retail Tivos


Not really. The cable company TiVo's aren't any different than the retail ones. They run the same software. That's how we used to get the release notes for software before TiVo started posting them, by looking on the RCN forums.

Also new guide data isn't a feature and there's no reason TiVo would switch over to a new provider prior to the existing contract ending. That would be like paying a mortgage on a how you don't own.


----------



## lew

morac said:


> Not really. The cable company TiVo's aren't any different than the retail ones. They run the same software. That's how we used to get the release notes for software before TiVo started posting them, by looking on the RCN forums.
> 
> Also new guide data isn't a feature and there's no reason TiVo would switch over to a new provider prior to the existing contract ending. That would be like paying a mortgage on a how you don't own.


Assume the TMS contract ends at midnight. Do you think the Rovi contract would take effect at 12:01? You think tivo will be able to switch all of us in seconds? More likely the new vendor would offer a month, or more, of free service during the transition.

You insist on a weak analogy, you sell your house and let the buyer move in before closing. You charge rent for those days. Maybe you waive the rental fee

Do cable supplied boxes connect with tivo servers and get TiVo processed guide data? Or does the cable system provide that service.


----------



## ajwees41

morac said:


> Not really. The cable company TiVo's aren't any different than the retail ones. They run the same software. That's how we used to get the release notes for software before TiVo started posting them, by looking on the RCN forums.
> 
> Also new guide data isn't a feature and there's no reason TiVo would switch over to a new provider prior to the existing contract ending. That would be like paying a mortgage on a how you don't own.


they may run the same software but don't have the same apps so not exactly the same


----------



## gweempose

The last couple days, I've had a message on my Roamio indicating that a ton of changes had been made to my channels. Is this just a coincidence, or is it directly related to the switch over?


----------



## UCLABB

gweempose said:


> The last couple days, I've had a message on my Roamio indicating that a ton of changes had been made to my channels. Is this just a coincidence, or is it directly related to the switch over?


Not related to any changeover. Channel NUMBER changes were made by by your cable company. Any changeover will not involve number changes.


----------



## ajwees41

gweempose said:


> The last couple days, I've had a message on my Roamio indicating that a ton of changes had been made to my channels. Is this just a coincidence, or is it directly related to the switch over?


channel lineup changes are based on provider lineups not changes to guide data providers


----------



## JoeKustra

gweempose said:


> The last couple days, I've had a message on my Roamio indicating that a ton of changes had been made to my channels. Is this just a coincidence, or is it directly related to the switch over?


Probably coincidence. Cable feeds sometimes reorganize their channels for unknown reasons. Sometime they like to group similar items together. Or they are preparing to change your service into different tiers to get you to pay more. A lot of reasons, mostly not to your benefit.


----------



## rainwater

UCLABB said:


> Not related to any changeover. Channel NUMBER changes were made by by your cable company. Any changeover will not involve number changes.


Gracenote is the one that makes the channel changes currently. The cable company can send the changes to Gracenote but the cable companies have no power to directly make changes to the lineup seen on TiVos.

And, I fail to see how lineup changes would have anything to do with using Rovi guide data unless the changes are reverting back to some incorrect channel lineups.


----------



## mdavej

Isn't the channel map stored in the cable card, and doesn't that come straight from the cable company, regardless of whatever lineup Tivo gets from their guide data provider?


----------



## morac

mdavej said:


> Isn't the channel map stored in the cable card, and doesn't that come straight from the cable company, regardless of whatever lineup Tivo gets from their guide data provider?


Yes, but the channel map just lets the TiVo tune the channels. The channel name, guide and program info overlay all come from the guide data provider.


----------



## Dan203

All the map does is map the user friendly channel number, like say 782, to the QAM frequency where that channel is actually stored, which is usually a sub channel like 54.3. It has no metadata about the actual channel it's mapping. TiVo's data is all attached to the user friendly channel number so they work exclusively off of that and just use the CableCARD to remap to the actual frequency when doing a tune.


----------



## jcthorne

Well, today is the big day...Tivo's work normally this morning.


----------



## lpwcomp

jcthorne said:


> Well, today is the big day...Tivo's work normally this morning.


Wouldn't today be the last day of the contract?


----------



## aaronwt

jcthorne said:


> Well, today is the big day...Tivo's work normally this morning.


The only thing I've noticed recently was that Orphan Black had no info about each episode. Starting this Pat Thursday and future episodes in my To Do list


----------



## mdavej

aaronwt said:


> The only thing I've noticed recently was that Orphan Black had no info about each episode. Starting this Pat Thursday and future episodes in my To Do list


Welcome to Rovi. That's one of the first things that happened to us when WMC switched (no episode info). I see they have learned nothing and corrected nothing. This is the tip of the iceberg. Just check some of my old posts to see what else is in store.


----------



## TonyD79

mdavej said:


> Welcome to Rovi. That's one of the first things that happened to us when WMC switched (no episode info). I see they have learned nothing and corrected nothing. This is the tip of the iceberg. Just check some of my old posts to see what else is in store.


Except the data was missing while TiVo was still using grace note.


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom

mdavej said:


> Welcome to Rovi. That's one of the first things that happened to us when WMC switched (no episode info). I see they have learned nothing and corrected nothing. This is the tip of the iceberg. Just check some of my old posts to see what else is in store.





TonyD79 said:


> Except the data was missing while TiVo was still using grace note.


Welcome to "Jump to Conclusions".


----------



## JoeKustra

TonyD79 said:


> Except the data was missing while TiVo was still using grace note.


True. Last week's episode has been filled in, but it's not unusual for a U.K. or Canadian import to miss data. The Tonight Show is missing data for Thursday on my guide also. It will probably fill in today during my normal connection.


----------



## gonzotek

aaronwt said:


> The only thing I've noticed recently was that Orphan Black had no info about each episode. Starting this Pat Thursday and future episodes in my To Do list





mdavej said:


> Welcome to Rovi. That's one of the first things that happened to us when WMC switched (no episode info). I see they have learned nothing and corrected nothing. This is the tip of the iceberg. Just check some of my old posts to see what else is in store.


Just checked and I have description for 5/12 (S4E5), but not for 5/19(S4E6). Comcast Gloucester County NJ. Going as far out as possible, that's the only thing in my todo list that ought to have a description but doesn't.


----------



## ajwees41

jcthorne said:


> Well, today is the big day...Tivo's work normally this morning.


but did it expire on the 13th at 11:59P.M. or does it expire on the 14th at 11:59 P.M.

I have guide data until 5/26 at noon last recording is set for 5/23 and has full info


----------



## aaronwt

gonzotek said:


> Just checked and I have description for 5/12 (S4E5), but not for 5/19(S4E6). Comcast Gloucester County NJ. Going as far out as possible, that's the only thing in my todo list that ought to have a description but doesn't.


The description wasn't there on the night it aired. When I watched it.


----------



## gonzotek

aaronwt said:


> The description wasn't there on the night it aired. When I watched it.


Sorry, wasn't trying to correct, just providing another data point.


----------



## rainwater

TiVo is not using Rovi data currently so it has nothing to do with Orphan Black. Gracenote just didn't have the guide data or updated it too late.


----------



## zerdian1

Dan203 said:


> For all we know they might have been planning for this switch over for a long time and are ready to flip the switch as soon as the contract is up.


Dan,
What will this switchover mean for us with multiple TiVo Roamio Pros with LifeTime, etc.

Where will we even begin to notice a difference?

What is GraceNote and/or Rovi used for?
George


----------



## TonyD79

rainwater said:


> TiVo is not using Rovi data currently so it has nothing to do with Orphan Black. Gracenote just didn't have the guide data or updated it too late.


More like a glitch in getting the data to TiVo as fios had it when TiVo didn't. Either that or fios pushed it out quicker when they got it. (Fios guide data is updated on the fly.)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Most likely the Gracenote contract was renewed/extended until they get their business in order. (Heck, the buyout isn't happening until Q3.) Or if not, tomorrow's data download is the stuff to watch.

The artwork comes from Gracenote too, no? The flipped switch might be obvious when it happens. A lot of it is canned, but there will probably still be differences.


----------



## rainwater

TonyD79 said:


> More like a glitch in getting the data to TiVo as fios had it when TiVo didn't. Either that or fios pushed it out quicker when they got it. (Fios guide data is updated on the fly.)


TiVo has gotten really slow at pushing the gracenote guide updates. Unless you connect your box a few hours before primetime begins, you will get data that is close to 36 hours old.


----------



## aaronwt

rainwater said:


> TiVo has gotten really slow at pushing the gracenote guide updates. Unless you connect your box a few hours before primetime begins, you will get data that is close to 36 hours old.


Wow! Really?!? That seems very extreme. You would think they would update things at least every few hours, if not quicker. At 36 hours it won't catch changes made within a day.

I did notice last week the guide data being wrong with News channel 8. We were walking in the DC Komen Cancer walk and they were televising it. The schedule online from the station showed it but the TiVo guide never showed it. So I had to create a Manual recording for the three or four hours it aired. But I've also never recorded anything from that channel so I have no idea if that was a common problem or not.


----------



## morac

TiVo can retroactively update data when a show is played. I've seen cases of shows with generic data in My Shows update with specific data after I play them.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I think that was a typo. The service connection schedule is every 26 hours, but depending on the connection time data could be over a day old.

In the last year or so, Tivo has gotten a bit worse about updating data well ahead of time, resulting in more last-day changes being made. So the 26 hour cycle has become somewhat inadequate.

Last year they screwed March Madness for a lot of people because the team data didn't update before the second round. I'm not sure what the damage was this year because I made sure to force connections.

I would blame Gracenote, but other places that use Gracenote have data before the Tivo does, even after forced connections.

Heck knows what Rovi + Slow Tivo will be like.


----------



## TonyD79

It is the tivo update cycle that messed with things like March madness or the hockey playoffs. 

I have two devices that have been using gracenote. My TiVo and my fios Dvr. The fios data is way ahead of TiVo because TiVo calls in less than once a day. The fios Dvr updates every time you load the guide (and I assume more often behind the scenes)

Depending on when you update the TiVo, you may not get sports and news updates. I've been forcing connections to get hockey playoff updates.


----------



## JoeKustra

TonyD79 said:


> Depending on when you update the TiVo, you may not get sports and news updates. I've been forcing connections to get hockey playoff updates.


Do you keep track when the update has no effect?


----------



## TonyD79

JoeKustra said:


> Do you keep track when the update has no effect?


What do you mean?


----------



## astrohip

zerdian1 said:


> What will this switchover mean for us with multiple TiVo Roamio Pros with LifeTime, etc.


We don't even know that there is a switchover. TiVo, Gracenote, Rovi... not a one has made any specific comments in reference the expiring contract*.

As myself and others have said multiple times in this thread, we are all speculating about something of which we have no hard data.

Rather than plan how I'm going to word the ebay listing of all my TiVos, how 'bout we wait and see what actually happens?

Or does that take all the fun out of it?

_*Other than the usual disclosure comments in their financial filings, which don't reveal any clue as to future directions._


----------



## JoeKustra

TonyD79 said:


> What do you mean?


If you watch the update by looking at the Settings, Network, Status, the update in progress is the gauge. On normal daily data collection, the time for "Loading.." proceeds with some hesitation at various points, like it's really doing something. If there is nothing to update, it may not even show a percentage, or it may spin right to 99% in a blur.

I have forced connections to perform an update, usually when I'm waiting for a guide update with something new in it. There is still a small delay of 2 to 5 minutes when indexing is done before the data is reflected in the To Do List and guide check marks. All these times can be seen in the System Information pages. Usually I just let things progress normally with the 26 hour interval.

BTW, on an firmware update, the "Progress..." spins to a percentage, stops for a long time, then spins again. This is repeated several times.


----------



## TonyD79

JoeKustra said:


> If you watch the update by looking at the Settings, Network, Status, the update in progress is the gauge. On normal daily data collection, the time for "Loading.." proceeds with some hesitation at various points, like it's really doing something. If there is nothing to update, it may not even show a percentage, or it may spin right to 99% in a blur. I have forced connections to perform an update, usually when I'm waiting for a guide update with something new in it. There is still a small delay of 2 to 5 minutes when indexing is done before the data is reflected in the To Do List and guide check marks. All these times can be seen in the System Information pages. Usually I just let things progress normally with the 26 hour interval. BTW, on an firmware update, the "Progress..." spins to a percentage, stops for a long time, then spins again. This is repeated several times.


No. I don't tend to watch it. Every time I've realized it needed new data for games, I downloaded and got it. I haven't been tracking any patterns at all.


----------



## mdavej

astrohip said:


> We don't even know that there is a switchover. TiVo, Gracenote, Rovi... not a one has made any specific comments in reference the expiring contract*.
> 
> As myself and others have said multiple times in this thread, we are all speculating about something of which we have no hard data.


We have plenty of hard data. Many just choose to ignore it.


----------



## foghorn2

mdavej said:


> We have plenty of hard data. Many just choose to ignore it.


but not Yar:


----------



## BobCamp1

TonyD79 said:


> It is the tivo update cycle that messed with things like March madness or the hockey playoffs.
> 
> I have two devices that have been using gracenote. My TiVo and my fios Dvr. The fios data is way ahead of TiVo because TiVo calls in less than once a day. The fios Dvr updates every time you load the guide (and I assume more often behind the scenes)
> 
> Depending on when you update the TiVo, you may not get sports and news updates. I've been forcing connections to get hockey playoff updates.


My FIOS DVR and Tivo do the same thing. Based on what I've seen, FIOS updates every four hours or so by itself but will also instantaneously update as you're viewing the guide. Like most equipment designed in the 21st century does.


----------



## TonyD79

BobCamp1 said:


> My FIOS DVR and Tivo do the same thing. Based on what I've seen, FIOS updates every four hours or so by itself but will also instantaneously update as you're viewing the guide. Like most equipment designed in the 21st century does.


TiVo updates once a day or so. Are you saying yours updates more often?


----------



## astrohip

mdavej said:


> We have plenty of hard data. Many just choose to ignore it.


Ok, give us some specific hard data that tells us what is going on with TiVo's guide service. Other than a disclosure in a financial statement.


----------



## ajwees41

astrohip said:


> We don't even know that there is a switchover. TiVo, Gracenote, Rovi... not a one has made any specific comments in reference the expiring contract*.
> 
> As myself and others have said multiple times in this thread, we are all speculating about something of which we have no hard data.
> 
> Rather than plan how I'm going to word the ebay listing of all my TiVos, how 'bout we wait and see what actually happens?
> 
> Or does that take all the fun out of it?
> 
> _*Other than the usual disclosure comments in their financial filings, which don't reveal any clue as to future directions._


maybe gracenote/TMS gave them a sweet contract and TiVo will still use then even after rovi becomes TiVo. I've seen it before on cox who used rovi ipg's/ but TMS data.


----------



## mdavej

astrohip said:


> Ok, give us some specific hard data that tells us what is going on with TiVo's guide service. Other than a disclosure in a financial statement.


IOW, you want all the facts except the ones you choose to ignore. What do you think the odds are that Tivo/Rovi will continue to buy guide data from someone else? Whatever happened to logic?


----------



## lew

mdavej said:


> IOW, you want all the facts except the ones you choose to ignore. What do you think the odds are that Tivo/Rovi will continue to buy guide data from someone else? Whatever happened to logic?


This thread talks about what happens on May 15. JMO We would have read a press release telling us about the upcoming upgrade to our guide data if the change was imminent. That suggests, to me, a contact extension of unknown duration. Logic suggests we won't be seeing a change in the next 4 hours.

Logic suggests Tivo, under Rivos ownership, will wind up dropping Gracenote.

I'm disappointed the switch doesn't seem to be happening now. Tivo, prior to change in ownership, has some leverage in making sure the transition goes smoothly.


----------



## astrohip

mdavej said:


> IOW, you want all the facts except the ones you choose to ignore. What do you think the odds are that Tivo/Rovi will continue to buy guide data from someone else? Whatever happened to logic?


I think I'm aware of all the facts, and I understand what probably will happen. As do most of us. But what _probably _will happen, and WHEN it will occur, isn't a known fact. It's conjecture. Will TiVo make a guide change? Almost certainly. Can we say what will happen, when it will happen, and how our devices will handle it? Not in the least. And those are the facts I keep asking you to lay out for me.

Logic has nothing to do with this. I want facts. I asked you for specific facts on what is going to happen. And your reply is smoke and mirrors: _"you want all the facts except the ones you choose to ignore"_. That's not an answer, that's evasion.



mdavej said:


> We have plenty of hard data. Many just choose to ignore it.


Again, what data can you share? You said you have hard data. What is it?


----------



## jcthorne

lpwcomp said:


> Wouldn't today be the last day of the contract?


Ok, its now the 15th and still no change. I still think a changeover is coming if the Rovi deal gets approved, but its a ways down the line before that happens.


----------



## tomhorsley

At least the episode titles and descriptions have now reappeared for Orphan Black (just checked my To Do list, and there they were .


----------



## mdavej

astrohip said:


> I think I'm aware of all the facts, and I understand what probably will happen. As do most of us. But what _probably _will happen, and WHEN it will occur, isn't a known fact. It's conjecture. Will TiVo make a guide change? Almost certainly. Can we say what will happen, when it will happen, and how our devices will handle it? Not in the least. And those are the facts I keep asking you to lay out for me.
> 
> Logic has nothing to do with this. I want facts. I asked you for specific facts on what is going to happen. And your reply is smoke and mirrors: _"you want all the facts except the ones you choose to ignore"_. That's not an answer, that's evasion.
> 
> Again, what data can you share? You said you have hard data. What is it?


Fact 1 - Gracenote contract has ended
Fact 2 - Tivo/Rovi press release which you discounted off hand where they state one of the merger reasons was specifically for Rovi's "guide" expertise. Every Tivo customer got the email.

In what universe would one company buy another specifically for their guide then continue to buy guide services elsewhere?


----------



## lew

mdavej said:


> Fact 1 - Gracenote contract has ended
> Fact 2 - Tivo/Rovi press release which you discounted off hand where they state one of the merger reasons was specifically for Rovi's "guide" expertise. Every Tivo customer got the email.
> 
> In what universe would one company buy another specifically for their guide then continue to buy guide services elsewhere?


Fact 1 Gracenote data is protected by copyright and/or patent protection.

Fact 2. Tivo's license to use said data was scheduled to expire on May 14.

Fact 3. Tivo is still using Gracenote's guide data .

Fact 4. Tivo has either arranged an extension or signed a new agreement for an unknown period of time.

Fact 5. Your Fact 1 is only correct if you assume tivo is illegally using Gracenote guide data.

Assumption--At some, unknown, time in the future, tivo will be switching to Rovi guide data.

Pure Speculation--I've read nothing to give any credence, in other words I'm making it up, Big companies are merging. Look at airlines. Look at Sirius and XM. Look at Office Max and Office Depot. Look at bank mergers. Is possible Rovi and Gracenote will be merging? Lobbyists seem generally successful in circumventing anti-trust considerations.


----------



## astrohip

mdavej said:


> Fact 1 - Gracenote contract has ended
> Fact 2 - Tivo/Rovi press release which you discounted off hand where they state one of the merger reasons was specifically for Rovi's "guide" expertise. Every Tivo customer got the email.
> 
> In what universe would one company buy another specifically for their guide then continue to buy guide services elsewhere?


Those facts have nothing to do with the speculation I am referring to, and which is rampant in this thread. And I've stated that many times.

Many of the posts, yours included, are making all sorts of statements about what's going to happen when the Gracenote contract ends. What I keep saying is none of the parties actually involved in this have made ANY statement. People (yourself included) keep saying we're going to lose "x" type of guide data, or a giant update will be forthcoming, or Search will no longer index series IDs, and on and on.

And I keep stating that's pure speculation. We don't know anything. And you keep saying "but we know all the facts".

I originally asked my question ("What data do we know?") thinking there might actually be something I missed. You keep answering with the obvious, and not with any real info.

It's clear that my idea of actually knowing something, and your idea of "facts" are different. So to spare the rest of the people in this thread the endless rehashing of your inability to understand the difference between facts and speculation, I'll quietly back out of the room.

PS: It's May 15th. Do you know where your guide data is?


----------



## series5orpremier

There's no info to indicate your Fact 1 is a fact. Here's my logical conjecture: like many contracts perhaps, and in fact likely, it had a provision for month-to-month extension in case a new contract agreement or arrangements couldn't be finalized in a timely enough manner, and perhaps TiVo is exercising that until the merger is complete in the 3rd quarter.


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom

We know the contract was to expire on May 15th, but does that also mean the data was to expire then too? Is it possible the contract states the data is good for the entire month? Like I get billed from my cable company on the 15th of the month for the next entire months worth of services. If I dont pay on May 15th I still have cable services until the end of May, but would not have services for June.


----------



## JoeKustra

Source:
http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...ERVNDPVNFQ1RJT05fUEFHRSZleHA9JnN1YnNpZD01Nw==

Highlight:
Gracenote (formerly known as Tribune Media Services, Inc.) is the sole supplier of the program guide data for the TiVo service. Gracenote, is the current sole supplier of program guide data for the TiVo service. Our current Television Listings Data Agreement with Gracenote originally became effective on May 14, 2007 and had an initial term of five years which TiVo has renewed for four additional years, and will expire on May 14, 2016. If we are unable to renew our agreement with Gracenote on terms acceptable to TiVo, our business could be harmed. The agreement provides each party with a termination right if the other party becomes controlled by certain third parties. If Gracenote breaches its obligation to provide us with data, rejects the agreement or otherwise fails to perform its obligations under our agreement, we would be unable to provide certain aspects of the TiVo service to our customers until we are able to incorporate an alternate source of guide data. We currently do not use any alternative television guide data nor have a license to use any alternative guide data. If we were forced to seek an alternative provider of television guide data, there would be significant cost and delay involved in integrating such an alternative source of guide data should we do so in the future. Depending upon the amount of notice we receive of such a breach or rejection of our agreement or notice that we will be unable to renew our agreement by the time it expires, and the amount of development work required by us to incorporate an alternate source of guide data,* we may be subject to a period of time in which we are unable to provide the TiVo service to our customers and distribution partners. In such an event, our business would be harmed*

Very interesting.


----------



## morac

The interesting part of that statement is "if we are unable to renew the agreement with Gracenote", which indicates that TiVo would like to renew. If TiVo was not planning to renew, they would have said so. 

Oh and I notice thumbnails still show up on my Roamio. Since the thumbnails, are provided by Gracenote, I think it's safe to say the contract was extended.


----------



## mdavej

astrohip said:


> People (yourself included) keep saying we're going to lose "x" type of guide data, or a giant update will be forthcoming, or Search will no longer index series IDs, and on and on.


I have linked to literally hundreds of posts documenting all the guide issues caused by Rovi in the WMC transition. I have experienced all of them firsthand. There is no evidence that any of the guide data has been fixed. Since it has not been fixed, Tivo is going to experience exactly the same issues because the data itself is lacking, not the execution of its mapping, which could arguably be Microsoft's fault. The fact that the very same fields are sometimes correct confirms that the mapping is correct, hence, not Microsoft's fault, but Rovi's.

Dates are irrelevant. The transition will happen sooner or later, and it will be a mess. We have mounds of evidence to support that.

I expect you will remain unconvinced until it actually happens. So I'm dropping it for now. I'll be back with "I told you so" posts soon enough.


----------



## rainwater

mdavej said:


> Fact 1 - Gracenote contract has ended


Unless you work for TiVo or Gracenote, I don't see how you can state that is a fact. It is quite possible the contract was extended. In fact it would be unlikely that it wasn't extended given TiVo has not announced any of their transition plans.


----------



## schatham

How can anyone tell if they have switched guide data? Is this a clue? I just updated Tivo connection which moved my guide from the 26th to the 27th. I noticed non of my shows are marked record in the to do list for the 27th. I have season passes that record daily up to the 26th, but not the 27th.

Can anyone else check to see if they have recordings that should record on the 27th are marked as such.


----------



## JoeKustra

schatham said:


> How can anyone tell if they have switched guide data? Is this a clue? I just updated Tivo connection which moved my guide from the 26th to the 27th. I noticed non of my shows are marked record in the to do list for the 27th. I have season passes that record daily up to the 26th, but not the 27th.
> 
> Can anyone else check to see if they have recordings that should record on the 27th are marked as such.


Look at your To Do List. Check the time of your last indexing. There is a small delay after the download completes. My guide, after today's update, also runs through 5/27. I have a 1P for Late Night and it's on my To Do List. However, my 1P has nothing else for Friday since it's normal for my data to end at 2PM EDT and I have no 1P for Friday night anyhow. Season is over.

It might be a weekend thing, but my next update is 28 hours from the last.


----------



## schatham

JoeKustra said:


> Look at your To Do List. Check the time of your last indexing. There is a small delay after the download completes. My guide, after today's update, also runs through 5/27. I have a 1P for Late Night and it's on my To Do List. However, my 1P has nothing else for Friday since it's normal for my data to end at 2PM EDT and I have no 1P for Friday night anyhow. Season is over.
> 
> It might be a weekend thing, but my next update is 28 hours from the last.


Their marked now. I guess it just took an hour or so after the update.


----------



## DevdogAZ

You people spend far too much time obsessing over guide data. I've had TiVo for 13 years and I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've paid attention to when my TiVo downloaded an update or when the next one was scheduled or how far out my guide data goes.


----------



## JoeKustra

DevdogAZ said:


> You people spend far too much time obsessing over guide data. I've had TiVo for 13 years and I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've paid attention to when my TiVo downloaded an update or when the next one was scheduled or how far out my guide data goes.


I have no life.


----------



## TonyD79

DevdogAZ said:


> You people spend far too much time obsessing over guide data. I've had TiVo for 13 years and I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've paid attention to when my TiVo downloaded an update or when the next one was scheduled or how far out my guide data goes.


I only pay attention because of changing (daily) sports schedules. The rest takes care of itself.


----------



## schatham

DevdogAZ said:


> You people spend far too much time obsessing over guide data. I've had TiVo for 13 years and I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've paid attention to when my TiVo downloaded an update or when the next one was scheduled or how far out my guide data goes.


It's the subject of the thread. Were looking for clues.


----------



## rainwater

schatham said:


> It's the subject of the thread. Were looking for clues.


It is far more likely TiVo will make an announcement first. This thread is turning into a conspiracy thread with every single change in anything is suddenly some clue as to TiVo switching guide data.


----------



## markjrenna

It is entertaining 



rainwater said:


> It is far more likely TiVo will make an announcement first. This thread is turning into a conspiracy thread with every single change in anything is suddenly some clue as to TiVo switching guide data.


----------



## JoeKustra

markjrenna said:


> It is entertaining


Yes, entertaining and fun.
Until someone wants to impose their opinion.
No, nobody does that.
Really, you must not get around.
Ok, I see what you mean.
I'd never do that.
Me neither.
Take care.
Bye.


----------



## murgatroyd

DevdogAZ said:


> You people spend far too much time obsessing over guide data. I've had TiVo for 13 years and I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've paid attention to when my TiVo downloaded an update or when the next one was scheduled or how far out my guide data goes.


"How far out my Guide Data goes" -- generally I've only worried about it when my TiVo started throwing out messages that I was running out of Guide Data.

But I do run a quick eye over my To Do List from time to time, to make sure that the stuff I want to record is actually on the To Do list.

Like other people have said, barring the glitches like the times my older TiVos couldn't call in because the phone cord had gotten knocked loose, I'm most likely to force an update because of an upcoming sports event.

But if push comes to shove, I just set manual recordings.


----------



## BobCamp1

schatham said:


> It's the subject of the thread. Were looking for clues.


Let's split up. Shaggy, you and Scooby go that way. Daphne, Velma and I will go this way.

I think most of the people in this thread are in the Shaggy/Scooby group. I see a lot of people yelling "Zoinks!", panicking, overreacting, and running all over the place without much thought behind it.


----------



## Diana Collins

It seems that almost everyone is assuming that because the Gracenote/Tivo contract was to expire on the 14th, that a new data source would appear on the 15th. But, if this contract is like most data service contracts I've seen, the 14th would have been the last day of data DELIVERY. The data delivered that day would include future listings (presumably up to ~14 days out). So, *IF* Tivo is changing to Rovi, the first day of Rovi data is most likely going to be around the 27th or 28th.


----------



## morac

Diana Collins said:


> It seems that almost everyone is assuming that because the Gracenote/Tivo contract was to expire on the 14th, that a new data source would appear on the 15th. But, if this contract is like most data service contracts I've seen, the 14th would have been the last day of data DELIVERY. The data delivered that day would include future listings (presumably up to ~14 days out). So, *IF* Tivo is changing to Rovi, the first day of Rovi data is most likely going to be around the 27th or 28th.


Except that part of the Gracenote contract is the use of all the thumbnails and program graphics which are downloaded on demand. Use of that would not be allowed after the contract expired unless a new contract was in place.


----------



## Diana Collins

morac said:


> Except that part of the Gracenote contract is the use of all the thumbnails and program graphics which are downloaded on demand. Use of that would not be allowed after the contract expired unless a new contract was in place.


Not if they were delivered along with the guide data. It doesn't matter when WE get them...only when TiVo gets them.


----------



## morac

Diana Collins said:


> Not if they were delivered along with the guide data. It doesn't matter when WE get them...only when TiVo gets them.


I highly doubt TiVo is making copies of all the graphic data and hosting them locally. More than likely the TiVo boxes are pulling the graphics directly from Gracenote's servers, which not only would save TiVo bandwidth but allow real time updating of the thumbnails.

The graphics are hosted on Akamai Network servers though so there's no way to really tell. All other TiVo data is hosted on tivo.com domain servers though, so it's very likely the graphics aren't coming from TiVo.


----------



## ajwees41

Rovi.com still is up I think if the deal is final Rovi and Tivo.com would be merged since Rovi would no longer exist


----------



## DevdogAZ

ajwees41 said:


> Rovi.com still is up I think if the deal is final Rovi and Tivo.com would be merged since Rovi would no longer exist


The merger/acquisition will not be final until Q3 at the earliest. But that's not what's being discussed here.


----------



## ajwees41

DevdogAZ said:


> The merger/acquisition will not be final until Q3 at the earliest. But that's not what's being discussed here.


going by that then they probably did a short term deal with Gracenote incase the merger fails though and didn't want to change data twice.


----------



## foghorn2

Better to show the expense to Gracenote one year and show the investors the savings after the merger happens.

If it does that is.


----------



## JoeKustra

Now to lighten the mood. Anyone have last week's NCIS? Compare the episode description to this week's episode. See the difference? Maybe Gracenote will have proofreaders.


----------



## shwru980r

Diana Collins said:


> It seems that almost everyone is assuming that because the Gracenote/Tivo contract was to expire on the 14th, that a new data source would appear on the 15th. But, if this contract is like most data service contracts I've seen, the 14th would have been the last day of data DELIVERY. The data delivered that day would include future listings (presumably up to ~14 days out). So, *IF* Tivo is changing to Rovi, the first day of Rovi data is most likely going to be around the 27th or 28th.


But future guide data is often incomplete and gets filled in subsequently with daily updates. Wouldn't the ROVI data have to kick in on the 15th to avoid a disruption of service?


----------



## Dan203

I can't really see this happening today. If they were going to make a big change like this I'd like to think we'd get some sort of warning or notice. When this thread first started I assumed we'd see that pop up in the next couple weeks, but it never did and now we're on the day the agreement expires and people are assuming the switch over just happened seamlessly. I seriously doubt it. I think at the very least we would have noticed something. Someone would be complaining about lineup issues or missing data or something.


----------



## lew

Dan203 said:


> I can't really see this happening today. If they were going to make a big change like this I'd like to think we'd get some sort of warning or notice. When this thread first started I assumed we'd see that pop up in the next couple weeks, but it never did and now we're on the day the agreement expires and people are assuming the switch over just happened seamlessly. I seriously doubt it. I think at the very least we would have noticed something. Someone would be complaining about lineup issues or missing data or something.


I'd expect a PR announcing an "upgrade" in guide data vendor shortly before any change. I always thought the May 14 date was negotiated because it was the end of the TV season. That said, assuming an imminent change over, a delay until at least the end of next week makes the most sense.

Shortly after this thread started I pictured a Tivo employee reading this thread, laughing, knowing the contract was already renewed.


----------



## markjrenna

Here is what I notice...

My FiOS DVR - guide data goes out till 5/30 2:30 am (14 days)

My TiVO DVR - guide data goes out till 5/28 3:00 pm (12 days)

I'll check this time tomorrow if the TiVo goes out further than 5/28 3:00 pm.


----------



## JoeKustra

After the update, my guide goes to 5/29. So we split the difference. That's still 13 days by TiVo's counting.


----------



## markjrenna

So I checked my TiVo and it's pending a restart. Interesting.

Edit... Just saw this...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=540602


----------



## aaronwt

lew said:


> I'd expect a PR announcing an "upgrade" in guide data vendor shortly before any change. I always thought the May 14 date was negotiated because it was the end of the TV season. That said, assuming an imminent change over, a delay until at least the end of next week makes the most sense.
> 
> Shortly after this thread started I pictured a Tivo employee reading this thread, laughing, knowing the contract was already renewed.


May 14th is most definitely not the end of the TV season. Heck the May Sweeps don't even end until May 25th.


----------



## JoeKustra

aaronwt said:


> May 14th is most definitely not the end of the TV season. Heck the May Sweeps don't even end until May 25th.


TV seasons are not the fine line they used to be. I agree most of the broadcast dramas end 5/25, but June 13 starts the "summer season". Even CBS has a new show Braindead and POI will continue until 6/21. I don't have end dates for Bones or Rosewood. My project for Memorial Day is to change the HDD in one Roamio. Things should be pretty quiet that day.

I have been "hoarding" 12 Monkeys and Containment for the long hot summer.


----------



## lpwcomp

"Major" networks aside, there's a new episode of several series nearly every week of the year.


----------



## lew

aaronwt said:


> May 14th is most definitely not the end of the TV season. Heck the May Sweeps don't even end until May 25th.





JoeKustra said:


> TV seasons are not the fine line they used to be. I agree most of the broadcast dramas end 5/25, but June 13 starts the "summer season". Even CBS has a new show Braindead and POI will continue until 6/21. I don't have end dates for Bones or Rosewood. My project for Memorial Day is to change the HDD in one Roamio. Things should be pretty quiet that day.
> 
> I have been "hoarding" 12 Monkeys and Containment for the long hot summer.


I doubt a switch in guide data vendors is imminent. I suspect the agreement with Gracenotes was extended for a period of time. One year? More then one year? Month to Month? All posters are doing are making guesses. My speculation, we'd see some kind of heads up a few weeks before a change. Leaks from beta testing. Press release from tivo talking about improvements in guide data.

I'd rather see the change ASAP. The longer we wait the larger the chance tivo will decide to leave older units behind.

I meant to say May 14 is near the end of the TV season. Posters are speculating as to the terms of the agreement, but posting them as fact. I have no idea as to what grace period or transitional termination terms might be present in the agreement. I doubt the actual end date of the 2015-2016 schedule was even known, with certainty, when the agreement was last extended. My thought is the window between the end of the regular TV season and the beginning of the "summer season" would be a good time to transition from one guide vendor to another.


----------



## schatham

I agree at this point since the 14th has come and gone their is nothing to worry or speculate about until the sale is final.


----------



## randian

I'm seeing bad data in the actors/actresses area. Try making a Wishlist and add an actor. The names are right but the pictures and bios are all wrong. You will see entries that share the same data when they obviously shouldn't.


----------



## TonyD79

randian said:


> I'm seeing bad data in the actors/actresses area. Try making a Wishlist and add an actor. The names are right but the pictures and bios are all wrong. You will see entries that share the same data when they obviously shouldn't.


I've seen that for months. Check the birth dates on some of them.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Not really related to Gracenote/Rovi, but if you want a laugh at guide data, do a search on TiVo for this actor and actress:


George Eads
Kristen Bell


----------



## rainwater

What to Watch hasn't loaded cover art for me in the Android app for months. Of course this has nothing to do with TiVo's gracenote contract. But if we are going to change this thread to complain about Tivo loading data, then it will at least be more interesting.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

TonyD79 said:


> I've seen that for months. Check the birth dates on some of them.


The pictures haven't been screwy like this though until the past few days.


----------



## TonyD79

PSU_Sudzi said:


> The pictures haven't been screwy like this though until the past few days.


No. They've been missing a lot, though.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

TonyD79 said:


> No. They've been missing a lot, though.


Intermittently, the picture tiles for shows default to those generic images with text overlay. Strange things are afoot in my TiVo Central.


----------



## TonyD79

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Intermittently, the picture tiles for shows default to those generic images with text overlay. Strange things are afoot in my TiVo Central.


I haven't seen that except for the lesser sports but that's been normal since I got my bolt.


----------



## shamilian

Alan Gordon said:


> Not really related to Gracenote/Rovi, but if you want a laugh at guide data, do a search on TiVo for this actor and actress:
> 
> 
> George Eads
> Kristen Bell


I noticed William Shatner is a woman's photo
the cast of the blacklist is all screwed up.....

Is this the new database ?


----------



## Alan Gordon

shamilian said:


> I noticed William Shatner is a woman's photo
> the cast of the blacklist is all screwed up.....
> 
> Is this the new database ?


I don't know what it is, and I didn't see randian and TonyD79's posts prior to posting about it. I was just setting up OnePasses for some of this Fall's lineup and saw the cast photos being incorrect.


----------



## Jed1

shamilian said:


> I noticed William Shatner is a woman's photo
> the cast of the blacklist is all screwed up.....
> 
> Is this the new database ?


So is Laurence Fishburne. His picture also has a woman's photo.


----------



## lpwcomp

I am seeing a lot of incorrect photos. While the one for Morris Chestnut is a man, it's some white guy with glasses.

Edit: It's correct in the Android app.


----------



## foghorn2

Is Bruce/Kaitlin Jenner correct?

And should GraceNote track what bathrooms celebrities use according to state?


----------



## CoxInPHX

Kristin Chenoweth

Andrew Dice-Clay

Alan Alda (never realized she was now a transgender woman, looks 40 years younger too)

Arnold Schwarzenegger's picture is showing up for several actors.

Gene Klein is really Gene Simmons

Goldbergs - Patton Oswalt is different from Patton Oswalt
Goldbergs - Sean Giambrone is different from Sean Giambrone

Micheal Shanks and Graham Beckel share the same photo,

Family Guy - Seth MacFarlane is a woman, press Select it turns into Seth MacFarlane's photo.
Same with every other show Seth MacFarlane is in.

Motive - Louis Ferreira (AKA Justin Louis) has Tony Hale's photo


----------



## CoxInPHX

morac said:


> Switching providers isn't something that can be done on a split second decision. Remember Gracenote provides more than just guide data. They also provide all the thumbnail images. See Gracenote's TiVo page.


Mention of TiVo seems to have disappeared from the Gracenote site.


----------



## schatham

CoxInPHX said:


> Mention of TiVo seems to have disappeared from the Gracenote site.


Interesting. Do you know what was on this page before?


----------



## gonzotek

schatham said:


> Interesting. Do you know what was on this page before?


From the WayBack Machine, circa April 5, 2016:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160405093017/http://www.gracenote.com/project/tivo/


----------



## CoxInPHX

shamilian said:


> the cast of the blacklist is all screwed up.....


Rebooting fixed most of the Blacklist cast photos, but not poor Alan Alda.

I have to reboot every few days, because all my thumbnails, photos and logos disappear.

EDIT: and 10 minutes after rebooting they all disappeared again....


----------



## TiVoSupport_Sarah

Hello,

In this case we are recommending to try Repeating the Guided setup to see if it resolves the issue with the pictures/thumbnails and logos permanently. Would anyone experiencing this issue please Private Message their TSN and if the guided setup worked or not? 

Thanks!


----------



## TonyD79

This fix includes the photos of actors?


----------



## Jed1

CoxInPHX said:


> Mention of TiVo seems to have disappeared from the Gracenote site.


When I checked on Thursday TiVo was still listed but today their listing is gone on Gracenote's site.
I looked in the CopyRight section of my TiVo menu and Tribune Media Services is still listed as the guide data provider.

I am not redoing guided setup as my lineup for Rovi is extremely out of date. It was from a lineup I had in October of 2012. I tried a few different ways to get it updated but nothing happened.


----------



## UCLABB

TiVoSupport_Sarah said:


> Hello,
> 
> In this case we are recommending to try Repeating the Guided setup to see if it resolves the issue with the pictures/thumbnails and logos permanently. Would anyone experiencing this issue please Private Message their TSN and if the guided setup worked or not?
> 
> Thanks!


This is kinda funny. TivoSarah watching this thread on Gracenotes and chimes in on how to fix thumbnails, but not a peep about the Gracenotes contract. The TiVo staff must get quite a laugh on us floundering around on this issue speculating on what's going to happen.


----------



## JoeKustra

UCLABB said:


> This is kinda funny. TivoSarah watching this thread on Gracenotes and chimes in on how to fix thumbnails, but not a peep about the Gracenotes contract. The TiVo staff must get quite a laugh on us floundering around on this issue speculating on what's going to happen.


It is sad. Also, the idea of this will be fixed by a repeat of a guided setup is the height of guessing. I have no missing thumbnails at all, but do have the wrong ones as noted.

I don't fault her for not commenting on the merger. It's normal for the workers to not know what's going on in any company. But a nice positive message would be welcome. That would be at Margret's pay level.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

TiVoSupport_Sarah said:


> Hello,
> 
> In this case we are recommending to try Repeating the Guided setup to see if it resolves the issue with the pictures/thumbnails and logos permanently. Would anyone experiencing this issue please Private Message their TSN and if the guided setup worked or not?
> 
> Thanks!


Just repeated guided setup on my Roamio Plus and can confirm it didn't work, still have incorrect pictures for actors, e.g. Alan Alda. Will message TSN.


----------



## rainwater

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Just repeated guided setup on my Roamio Plus and can confirm it didn't work, still have incorrect pictures for actors, e.g. Alan Alda. Will message TSN.


I think everyone has many wrong pictures. My guess is repeating guided setup was a recommended fix for missing tiles some people are seeing.


----------



## shamilian

rainwater said:


> I think everyone has many wrong pictures. My guess is repeating guided setup was a recommended fix for missing tiles some people are seeing.


repeat guided setup is their go to answer for everything.


----------



## lessd

shamilian said:


> repeat guided setup is their go to answer for everything.


Don't forget the cold re-boot


----------



## foghorn2

We are better tech support than Tivo's tech support.


----------



## astrohip

foghorn2 said:


> We are better tech support than Tivo's tech support.


Most user forum are.


----------



## zerdian1

gonzotek said:


> From the WayBack Machine, circa April 5, 2016:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20160405093017/http://www.gracenote.com/project/tivo/


thanks
I appreciate it that someone saved it.
I had not seen that before.
Grace Note and TiVo were a great team.
I wonder how all that great stuff GraceNote used to provide will improve or degrade over time.
stay tuned as we will all find out.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Seems like the tiles with pics come back after a reboot and then are gone again after a few days.


----------



## BobCamp1

rainwater said:


> I think everyone has many wrong pictures. My guess is repeating guided setup was a recommended fix for missing tiles some people are seeing.


It's happening on my Sony Blu-Ray player too, which also uses Gracenote. The picture of Harrison Ford was actually Judi Dench. Haven't really noticed it on my FIOS DVR, but I don't pay attention to the pictures in that.

Are you guys so sure you want to stick with Gracenote? The quality seems to have gone downhill.


----------



## JoeKustra

BobCamp1 said:


> It's happening on my Sony Blu-Ray player too, which also uses Gracenote. The picture of Harrison Ford was actually Judi Dench. Haven't really noticed it on my FIOS DVR, but I don't pay attention to the pictures in that.
> 
> Are you guys so sure you want to stick with Gracenote? The quality seems to have gone downhill.


Interesting. However, Sony and Gracenote have always had issues. You can check the Sony support forums.

I have noticed that the zap2it guide is now about 18 hours shorter. This started about two weeks ago.


----------



## morac

I checked my TiVo last night for some of the "problem actors" mentioned and the pictures looked okay.


----------



## aaronwt

I still see the Alan Alda mistake that shows a Blonde Lady for the picture. I see it listed in the cast for The Blacklist.


----------



## Dan203

Looks like most of the data for next week is screwed up on my TiVo. I see all sorts of repeats recording that shouldn't. Not sure if this is a sign of a switch over or not, but I hope it fixes itself in the next couple days or I'm going to have to start doing a lot of manual pruning of ToDo.


----------



## JoeKustra

Dan203 said:


> Looks like most of the data for next week is screwed up on my TiVo. I see all sorts of repeats recording that shouldn't. Not sure if this is a sign of a switch over or not, but I hope it fixes itself in the next couple days or I'm going to have to start doing a lot of manual pruning of ToDo.


I think the programming for next week (and beyond) for late night is messed up. All my 1P say new only, but all are scheduled. I guess I'll see how smart the TiVo is on Monday. It is a holiday. We can blame that.


----------



## lessd

Dan203 said:


> Looks like most of the data for next week is screwed up on my TiVo. I see all sorts of repeats recording that shouldn't. Not sure if this is a sign of a switch over or not, but I hope it fixes itself in the next couple days or I'm going to have to start doing a lot of manual pruning of ToDo.


If one looks at the original air date and you see some other date than the current date is it safe to assume the program is a repeat ? (except for some PBS programs that were showed in another country before) I don't see the *R* anymore in the description.


----------



## Dan203

I just know they're repeats. The Daily Show, The Nightly Show and @Midnight are all off next week and yet I see them all scheduled. I also see shows from HBO (Realtime and Last Week Tonight) repeating several times through the week. Something it seriously screwed up starting Monday and I just hope it gets fixed so I don't have to deal with it manually.


----------



## TonyD79

Last couple of weeks, I've noticed generic data for many shows that run multiple times a week that got cleared up later than usual.


----------



## JoeKustra

One clue something is different is there is no Monday morning show for TDS. The Monday night show can't be new. It's a holiday. It's as good of an excuse as any.

If it still matters, zap2it also has nothing new starting Monday. Everything in my guide has an *R.*


----------



## lpwcomp

lessd said:


> If one looks at the original air date and you see some other date than the current date is it safe to assume the program is a repeat ? (except for some PBS programs that were showed in another country before) I don't see the *R* anymore in the description.


Most likely these entries are missing specific episode data, and thus get the description for the series and the OAD of the first episode. In that case, a "NEW" only 1P/SP will schedule it as it _*might*_ be new.

Examples of this are both upcoming Sundays' episodes of "The Good Wife" and the 06/06 episode of "Supergirl". It's also what zap2it has for "The Good Wife" episodes, so it is in the Gracenote data. "Supergirl" has been replaced with "Mom" and" "2 Broke Girls" which also have "generic" data.


----------



## rainwater

I think Gracenote is already on holiday. I'm not sure I have ever seen this much generic data for my season passes all at once.


----------



## DevdogAZ

JoeKustra said:


> One clue something is different is there is no Monday morning show for TDS. The Monday night show can't be new. It's a holiday. It's as good of an excuse as any.
> 
> If it still matters, zap2it also has nothing new starting Monday. Everything in my guide has an R.


My TiVo is currently showing reruns of TDS and TNS on Monday morning (9:16 am and 9:48 am).


----------



## DevdogAZ

rainwater said:


> I think Gracenote is already on holiday. I'm not sure I have ever seen this much generic data for my season passes all at once.


It's also possible it's the networks that haven't provided any new data. The traditional TV season ended last night. The upcoming week is traditionally a week of reruns for most TV networks. So it's entirely possible that the networks simply haven't provided updated data to Gracenote because there's hardly anything new scheduled.


----------



## JoeKustra

DevdogAZ said:


> My TiVo is currently showing reruns of TDS and TNS on Monday morning (9:16 am and 9:48 am).


I see them also. But when the 11pm version is new, the morning versions are scheduled to record. And they do record unless cancelled. Next week starts repeats for virtually everything. The following week TDS is not on my To Do List.

I'll go with the holiday theory. Maybe TiVo and Rovi are having a cookout and didn't invite Gracenote.


----------



## tim1724

Guide data for Comedy Central's late night shows is often messed up. Mondays pretty much always are, with multiple mid-day reruns marked as new. If anything the guide data has been much improved the past month or two when it comes to The Daily Show, etc.

And yes, holidays always cause hiccups in the guide data. Often the broadcasters don't decide until the last minute which rerun to air (or what random other show to substitute in a particular timeslot) or at least don't tell Gracenote their plans until the last minute. Thus we get lots of generic show listings (which TiVo treats as new to be safe) around holiday weekends.


----------



## morac

Dan203 said:


> I just know they're repeats. The Daily Show, The Nightly Show and @Midnight are all off next week and yet I see them all scheduled. I also see shows from HBO (Realtime and Last Week Tonight) repeating several times through the week. Something it seriously screwed up starting Monday and I just hope it gets fixed so I don't have to deal with it manually.


This has been an ongoing issue for nearly 10 years, especially with Comedy not updating guide data when their shows are off. Using the "Tupper Method" is a good work around for this problem.


----------



## rainwater

morac said:


> This has been an ongoing issue for nearly 10 years, especially with Comedy not updating guide data when their shows are off. Using the "Tupper Method" is a good work around for this problem.


That is true although lately I have not needed to use a wish list for TDS. However the current situation is affecting shows on the major networks. Just a quick glance at Monday and I see Scorpion with generic guide data I'm seeing it on several other shows too. It is a bit strange to say the least but hopefully it gets worked out before Monday.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

aaronwt said:


> I still see the Alan Alda mistake that shows a Blonde Lady for the picture. I see it listed in the cast for The Blacklist.


I think it's Christine Aguilerra(sp?).


----------



## TonyD79

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I think it's Christine Aguilerra(sp?).


Looks like her to me. And it matches the picture they have for her. (Would've been funny if Alan Alda showed up in her photo)


----------



## morac

rainwater said:


> That is true although lately I have not needed to use a wish list for TDS. However the current situation is affecting shows on the major networks. Just a quick glance at Monday and I see Scorpion with generic guide data I'm seeing it on several other shows too. It is a bit strange to say the least but hopefully it gets worked out before Monday.


I've seen many times when generic data shows up for the next week and gets corrected over the weekend. Also remember Monday is Memorial Day and some networks change their programming for that.

Most of the shows I've watched ended their season, with a few exceptions, so I haven't really noticed any issues. The shows I see with generic data have that from time to time, so it's not out of the ordinary, especially towards the summer.


----------



## Joe01880

UCLABB said:


> This is kinda funny. TivoSarah watching this thread on Gracenotes and chimes in on how to fix thumbnails, but not a peep about the Gracenotes contract. The TiVo staff must get quite a laugh on us floundering around on this issue speculating on what's going to happen.


Maybe just say thanks for helping instead of complaining.
Perhaps she doesn't know any more about the Gracenote contact than you do!!

Sent from my LG G4 using Tapatalk.


----------



## davezatz

JoeKustra said:


> I don't fault her for not commenting on the merger. It's normal for the workers to not know what's going on in any company. But a nice positive message would be welcome. That would be at Margret's pay level.


So the rank and file employees probably received the same sort of positivity email that CMO already provided to us customers and don't know any more than we do. As such, I've heard of some TiVo employees looking for new jobs given their own uncertainty (after one round of layoffs earlier this year and given the very public disclosure that cost saving "synergies" would be had, presumably somewhat due to overlapping job function).

Regarding guide data, there's not enough evidence for me of a change so I assume they worked out an extension.


----------



## JoeKustra

davezatz said:


> So the rank and file employees probably received the same sort of positivity email that CMO already provided to us customers and don't know any more than we do. As such, I've heard of some TiVo employees looking for new jobs given their own uncertainty (after one round of layoffs earlier this year and given the very public disclosure that cost saving "synergies" would be had, presumably somewhat due to overlapping job function).


That's so easy in this example since Rovi and TiVo are under an hour from each other, depending on traffic. It would be logical to eliminate one building and the jobs like HR and accounting. It will be interesting to see how the addresses and phone numbers change if the deal completes.


----------



## Jed1

davezatz said:


> So the rank and file employees probably received the same sort of positivity email that CMO already provided to us customers and don't know any more than we do. As such, I've heard of some TiVo employees looking for new jobs given their own uncertainty (after one round of layoffs earlier this year and given the very public disclosure that cost saving "synergies" would be had, presumably somewhat due to overlapping job function).
> 
> Regarding guide data, there's not enough evidence for me of a change so I assume they worked out an extension.


I am not sure but there was an article that was out about 2 or 3 weeks ago that stated around 600 TiVo employees and 1700 Rovi/Gemstar employees work at both companies and there will be job cuts. If I find the article I will post the link. It was either in a broadcast industry or financial publication.

EDIT:
OK I found the article and the number of employees quoted that I mentioned is the total number of employees working at both companies. They stated there will be reductions due to overlap of jobs.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/what-tivos-11b-sale-rovi-890154



> The TV technology companies acknowledged layoffs among Rovi's roughly 1,700 and TiVo's 600 employees will occur because of "overlap" in areas like media analytics. "TiVo's measurement product is based on TiVo users, a tiny portion of the population," says Leichtman Research Group president Bruce Leichtman. "With Rovi, there's potential to make their measurement more reflective of the population of time-shifters."


----------



## TonyD79

And most of the glitches I've seen gave settled down.


----------



## UCLABB

Joe01880 said:


> Maybe just say thanks for helping instead of complaining.
> Perhaps she doesn't know any more about the Gracenote contact than you do!!
> 
> Sent from my LG G4 using Tapatalk.


Who said I was complaining? I just found it humorous.


----------



## rainwater

UCLABB said:


> Who said I was complaining? I just found it humorous.


What was humorous? Why would a TiVo employee publicly comment on something that they either can't or don't know about? Posts like yours are why TiVo employees never regularly contribute here anymore.


----------



## ej42137

rainwater said:


> What was humorous? Why would a TiVo employee publicly comment on something that they either can't or don't know about? Posts like yours are why TiVo employees never regularly contribute here anymore.


I found it darkly humorous, the idea of TiVo Sarah sitting in her cubical laughing manically at our ridiculous speculations does seem a little funny to me.


----------



## UCLABB

ej42137 said:


> I found it darkly humorous, the idea of TiVo Sarah sitting in her cubical laughing manically at our ridiculous speculations does seem a little funny to me.


That's exactly how I envisioned it though more mild laughter than maniacal.

To Rainwater, again I wasn't expecting her to comment, I am relatively sure that TiVo employees know what's going on with the guide info/contract, that is whether there was going to be some immediate transfer to Rovi, and probably just chuckle at us speculating about it.


----------



## rainwater

UCLABB said:


> I am relatively sure that TiVo employees know what's going on with the guide info/contract


I doubt very many people inside of TiVo would know that information. I can't imagine a company of TiVo's size would give employees very much information on contract details with outside companies.


----------



## davezatz

rainwater said:


> I doubt very many people inside of TiVo would know that information. I can't imagine a company of TiVo's size would give employees very much information on contract details with outside companies.


I'm sure there are those who are aware of the plan. Or at least aware of the plan prior to the announced merger. But communication will be limited during a quiet period of a pending sale, when every disclosure requires a SEC filing. For example, at the quarterly call next week, they will field no questions.


----------



## schatham

UCLABB said:


> That's exactly how I envisioned it though more mild laughter than maniacal.
> 
> To Rainwater, again I wasn't expecting her to comment, I am relatively sure that TiVo employees know what's going on with the guide info/contract, that is whether there was going to be some immediate transfer to Rovi, and probably just chuckle at us speculating about it.


The real chuckle is were probably using the Rovi guide now and don't realize it.


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom

schatham said:


> The real chuckle is were probably using the Rovi guide now and don't realize it.


Can't be. There's supposed to be an apocalyptic event when it switches to Rovi data. We were promised it by the Gracenotes faithful.


----------



## TonyD79

schatham said:


> The real chuckle is were probably using the Rovi guide now and don't realize it.


Doubt it. Show descriptions still match exactly between TiVo and fios, which uses gracenote.


----------



## markjrenna

It's currently Gracenotes data.


----------



## JoeKustra

markjrenna said:


> It's currently Gracenotes data.


I guess somebody screwed up and forgot to change the copyright (again).


----------



## schatham

JoeKustra said:


> I guess somebody screwed up and forgot to change the copyright (again).


I doubt any update to that would be prompt. The last update was over a year ago.



markjrenna said:


> It's currently Gracenotes data.


How are you so sure? Gracenote did remove any mention of Tivo from their website.

I'm not saying either way, but I doubt anyone will notice or get any message about it.


----------



## JoeKustra

schatham said:


> How are you so sure? Gracenote did remove any mention of Tivo from their website.
> 
> I'm not saying either way, but I doubt anyone will notice or get any message about it.


I'll bet that we will get a message and notice the difference. Probably not in that order.

But not until the deal is final.


----------



## rainwater

davezatz said:


> I'm sure there are those who are aware of the plan. Or at least aware of the plan prior to the announced merger. But communication will be limited during a quiet period of a pending sale, when every disclosure requires a SEC filing. For example, at the quarterly call next week, they will field no questions.


Yes, I am sure the higher ups at TiVo are aware of the situation. But my point was employees posting here are highly unlikely to know much and even if they did, they wouldn't be allowed to post about it.


----------



## UCLABB

rainwater said:


> I doubt very many people inside of TiVo would know that information. I can't imagine a company of TiVo's size would give employees very much information on contract details with outside companies.


While they may not know about the contract details, I'm pretty sure if the there was some immediately changeover to Rovi, the employees would know about it because many of them would be working on it.


----------



## JoeKustra

UCLABB said:


> While they may not know about the contract details, I'm pretty sure if the there was some immediately changeover to Rovi, the employees would know about it because many of them would be working on it.


Interesting point. I wonder how many Rovi employees (if any) have a TiVo and keep their relationship hidden?

Hmmm. I need my aluminum foil hat.


----------



## markjrenna

My FiOS DVR's/STB have Gracenote data and my TiVo has the EXACT same data.

You can, at your leisure, check Zap2it.com (TMS/Gracenote) and see that TiVo has the EXACT same data.



schatham said:


> I doubt any update to that would be prompt. The last update was over a year ago.
> 
> How are you so sure? Gracenote did remove any mention of Tivo from their website.
> 
> I'm not saying either way, but I doubt anyone will notice or get any message about it.


----------



## schatham

markjrenna said:


> My FiOS DVR's/STB have Gracenote data and my TiVo has the EXACT same data.
> 
> You can, at your leisure, check Zap2it.com (TMS/Gracenote) and see that TiVo has the EXACT same data.


Who does Xfinity use, if you know? My Xfinity is different than my Tivo.


----------



## mdavej

schatham said:


> Who does Xfinity use, if you know? My Xfinity is different than my Tivo.


I don't know, but according to their customer lists, it is neither Gracenote nor Rovi.


----------



## Jed1

schatham said:


> Who does Xfinity use, if you know? My Xfinity is different than my Tivo.


Rovi (TV Guide)

Now that Charter officially acquired Time Warner Cable it looks like the only large pay TV operator that Tribune has left is Direct TV.
Charter (now called Spectrum) uses Rovi (TV Guide)
Since Tribune emerged from bankruptcy they lost a lot of clients.

It is also worth mentioning that Gemstar/Rovi is the one that came up with the 6 degrees of search. They announced this about 5 or 6 years ago.
6 degrees of search would enable connected users to access all content when searching for something to watch and not just what was downloaded with the guide data.
Tribune was the one that was playing catch up not Rovi. Also the program ID #s is something that Gemstar used back in the 1990s when they had a thing called VCRPlus. The Gemstar TV Guide database dates all the way back to the 1950s when the TV Guide magazine was introduced so the database that Rovi has is immense and accurate.
The only setback will be the cable lineups will be way out of date because Rovi made the decision to stop updating them when they abandoned the TV Guide On Screen service in 2012. Even then the lineups were out of date as the old method of updating them was when the cable companies would send in their line up changes to the TV Guide magazine. When Macrovision (Rovi) acquired Gemstar in 2008, they sold of the magazine to a private company.
They cable companies that use Gemstar software on their STBs can update their lineups internally to the company and not have to contact Rovi to add, delete, or move the channels in their lineups. Some operators will send in lineup changes to Rovi but most companies do not.


----------



## mdavej

Jed1 said:


> Rovi (TV Guide)


I agree Comcast used Gemstar years ago, but they are no longer listed on Rovi's website:

http://www.rovicorp.com/customers.html

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?


----------



## NAPABFH

Jed1 said:


> Rovi (TV Guide)
> 
> Now that Charter officially acquired Time Warner Cable it looks like the only large pay TV operator that Tribune has left is Direct TV.
> Charter (now called Spectrum) uses Rovi (TV Guide)
> Since Tribune emerged from bankruptcy they lost a lot of clients.
> 
> It is also worth mentioning that Gemstar/Rovi is the one that came up with the 6 degrees of search. They announced this about 5 or 6 years ago.
> 6 degrees of search would enable connected users to access all content when searching for something to watch and not just what was downloaded with the guide data.
> Tribune was the one that was playing catch up not Rovi. Also the program ID #s is something that Gemstar used back in the 1990s when they had a thing called VCRPlus. The Gemstar TV Guide database dates all the way back to the 1950s when the TV Guide magazine was introduced so the database that Rovi has is immense and accurate.
> The only setback will be the cable lineups will be way out of date because Rovi made the decision to stop updating them when they abandoned the TV Guide On Screen service in 2012. Even then the lineups were out of date as the old method of updating them was when the cable companies would send in their line up changes to the TV Guide magazine. When Macrovision (Rovi) acquired Gemstar in 2008, they sold of the magazine to a private company.
> They cable companies that use Gemstar software on their STBs can update their lineups internally to the company and not have to contact Rovi to add, delete, or move the channels in their lineups. Some operators will send in lineup changes to Rovi but most companies do not.


Gracenote it's getting ready to lose DirecTV has a customer also once AT&T gets the system all set up they will be switching from Gracenote


----------



## schatham

Jed1 said:


> Rovi (TV Guide)
> 
> Now that Charter officially acquired Time Warner Cable it looks like the only large pay TV operator that Tribune has left is Direct TV.
> Charter (now called Spectrum) uses Rovi (TV Guide)
> Since Tribune emerged from bankruptcy they lost a lot of clients.
> 
> It is also worth mentioning that Gemstar/Rovi is the one that came up with the 6 degrees of search. They announced this about 5 or 6 years ago.
> 6 degrees of search would enable connected users to access all content when searching for something to watch and not just what was downloaded with the guide data.
> Tribune was the one that was playing catch up not Rovi. Also the program ID #s is something that Gemstar used back in the 1990s when they had a thing called VCRPlus. The Gemstar TV Guide database dates all the way back to the 1950s when the TV Guide magazine was introduced so the database that Rovi has is immense and accurate.
> The only setback will be the cable lineups will be way out of date because Rovi made the decision to stop updating them when they abandoned the TV Guide On Screen service in 2012. Even then the lineups were out of date as the old method of updating them was when the cable companies would send in their line up changes to the TV Guide magazine. When Macrovision (Rovi) acquired Gemstar in 2008, they sold of the magazine to a private company.
> They cable companies that use Gemstar software on their STBs can update their lineups internally to the company and not have to contact Rovi to add, delete, or move the channels in their lineups. Some operators will send in lineup changes to Rovi but most companies do not.


Great info, thanks. Looks like Tivo/Rovi (when the deal closes) will have to do something about updating lineups.


----------



## tampa8

DISH uses Gracenote and the wording is the same as my TIVO though DISH often has added info.


----------



## randian

If Rovi won't be updating channel lineups that will make TiVo useless over time. I can't imagine it's an expensive thing to do either, it's not like lineup changes happen all that frequently.


----------



## NAPABFH

tampa8 said:


> DISH uses Gracenote and the wording is the same as my TIVO though DISH often has added info.


Why is Dish Network and echostar both listed on Rovi's website for when they use Gracenote


mdavej said:


> I agree Comcast used Gemstar years ago, but they are no longer listed on Rovi's website:
> 
> http://www.rovicorp.com/customers.html
> 
> Do you have any evidence to the contrary?


----------



## mdavej

The only cable/satellite customers Gracenote still has (according to their website) are DirecTV and Time Warner Cable.

http://www.gracenote.com/customers/

If you guys have other sources for this kind of info, please share it.


----------



## Jed1

mdavej said:


> I agree Comcast used Gemstar years ago, but they are no longer listed on Rovi's website:
> 
> http://www.rovicorp.com/customers.html
> 
> Do you have any evidence to the contrary?






If you look at this you tube video of the X1 guide you will notice next to the preview window at 6 minutes in you will see the TV Guide logo.
Rovi owns TV Guide which which they got when they bought Gemstar.

There is only three guide data providers in the US:
Rovi TV Guide
Tribune Media Services, now Gracenote
FYI Titan TV
Note: it looks like FYI was bought up by Ericsson
http://www.fyitelevision.com/


----------



## Jed1

NAPABFH said:


> Gracenote it's getting ready to lose DirecTV has a customer also once AT&T gets the system all set up they will be switching from Gracenote


Good point I forgot about AT&T acquiring Direct TV. That will leave no pay tv provider using TMS for guide data. That is a big blow to Tribune.


----------



## NAPABFH

It's Tribune's fault that this is happening because they never fix their guide data issues


----------



## Alan Gordon

NAPABFH said:


> It's Tribune's fault that this is happening because they never fix their guide data issues


Interesting belief...

A quick check of TV Guide online shows considerably less channels than I can receive.

A quick check of TV Guide online also shows no filmographies for multiple people that Gracenote lists... including one WishList I have set up.

A quick check of TV Guide online shows programs like "American Idol" and "The Voice" have major cast listing issues.

Rovi data has some things correct that Gracenote doesn't. Gracenote has some things correct that Rovi doesn't.

Is your friend having any issues with his TiVo with the Rovi guide data?


----------



## Jed1

Another big loser in this deal is Arris. Their Arris Whole Home Solution (Moxi) uses TMS for it s guide service. Without TiVo the cable ops that use the Moxi setup will now have to do the line up changes themselves. 
Before it was TiVo that would upgrade the lineups which would also automatically update the Tribune database which in turn would update the Arris Moxi units.

One thing I do miss from TV Guide data was they would label Season Finale or Series Finale with the listings info. Also it was very rare that the listings were wrong or not updated.
Also the channel logos were a Gemstar idea and you could turn them on and off in the guide. Also giving colors to the different type of programming was a Gemstar idea. Like green for sports, purple for movies, blue for children.

The TVGOS setup would contact the database 4 times during the day so if the president was going to speak and preempt programming the guide would be updated on the last database contact at 5 PM.

I don't know if there will be a change on how often the TiVo will contact the database as that will be up to TiVo. But it is possible for it to be done that way as TV Guide On Screen worked that way.


----------



## rainwater

NAPABFH said:


> It's Tribune's fault that this is happening because they never fix their guide data issues


I highly doubt the quality of the guide data has anything to do with Gracenote's contracts with the different providers.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jed1 said:


> One thing I do miss from TV Guide data was they would label Season Finale or Series Finale with the listings info.


DirecTV (who uses Gracenote) would (most of the time) have Season Finale/Series Finale tags as well.

It may be TiVo that is excluding these tags from the listings.


----------



## NAPABFH

Alan Gordon said:


> Interesting belief...
> 
> A quick check of TV Guide online shows considerably less channels than I can receive.
> 
> A quick check of TV Guide online also shows no filmographies for multiple people that Gracenote lists... including one WishList I have set up.
> 
> A quick check of TV Guide online shows programs like "American Idol" and "The Voice" have major cast listing issues.
> 
> Rovi data has some things correct that Gracenote doesn't. Gracenote has some things correct that Rovi doesn't.
> 
> Is your friend having any issues with his TiVo with the Rovi guide data?


No he said that his TiVo is working better the new one he had before


----------



## rainwater

Alan Gordon said:


> DirecTV (who uses Gracenote) would (most of the time) have Season Finale/Series Finale tags as well.
> 
> It may be TiVo that is excluding these tags from the listings.


Directv augments Gracenote guide data with their own data (or through other providers). I believe TiVo does this with some of the OnePass streaming data but not for things like season/series finales.


----------



## Space

Jed1 said:


> Rovi owns TV Guide which which they got when they bought Gemstar.
> ...


Rovi used to own TV guide before they sold it off. tvguide.com is now owned by CBS and the paper publication is owned by NTVB Media.

tvguide.com (CBS) has a contract with Rovi to provide the listings.


----------



## Alan Gordon

rainwater said:


> Directv augments Gracenote guide data with their own data (or through other providers). I believe TiVo does this with some of the OnePass streaming data but not for things like season/series finales.


I've never really seen anything the DirecTV guide data has had that the TiVo guide data does not (other than the finale tags and the occasional difference in logos).


----------



## TonyD79

Alan Gordon said:


> I've never really seen anything the DirecTV guide data has had that the TiVo guide data does not (other than the finale tags and the occasional difference in logos).


Season and series (and movie) Premieres and LIVE as a keyword.


----------



## TonyD79

mdavej said:


> The only cable/satellite customers Gracenote still has (according to their website) are DirecTV and Time Warner Cable. http://www.gracenote.com/customers/ If you guys have other sources for this kind of info, please share it.


I'm confused. Fios and TiVo have matched since I got TiVo again. If TiVo used gracenote then how did fios match if they didn't?


----------



## Alan Gordon

TonyD79 said:


> Season and series (and movie) Premieres and LIVE as a keyword.


I forgot Movie Premieres and LIVE.

The TiVo obviously knows about Live though, or it wouldn't ask you if you wanted to pad the recording.


----------



## mdavej

TonyD79 said:


> I'm confused. Fios and TiVo have matched since I got TiVo again. If TiVo used gracenote then how did fios match if they didn't?


The two links I posted are the only sources I have for this information. Your experience suggests that Fios is indeed using Gracenote despite the fact their website doesn't acknowledge it. Looks like the trend now is for all TV providers to drop Gracenote, which is a shame


----------



## TonyD79

Alan Gordon said:


> I forgot Movie Premieres and LIVE. The TiVo obviously knows about Live though, or it wouldn't ask you if you wanted to pad the recording.


It knows something but it may use some logic to determine it (sports event and same day?). Fios does tag things as live in their guide.

Maybe we are at a point where guide data isn't all that. If the channels provide information maybe the grace notes et al are just conveying it.


----------



## foghorn2

When I had the Hopper, the Dish guide said TV Guide. Isn't that Rovi?


----------



## TonyD79

Okay. TiVo is not tagging items as live. I just tried to record the rerun of the lacrosse finals starting at 8. It told me it was live and asked to add time. 

I think it sees "Event" and same day and thinks it is live.


----------



## lew

Posters are making assumptions without any facts to support them. We have no idea if the client list on Gracenote's website is inclusive. There might be clients which don't want to be listed. There might be clients Gracenote doesn't want to list.

Likewise a generic listing on Rovi's site might not mean much. Doesn't Rovi get a royalty for using a grid display of listing, regardless of the source of guide data?


----------



## markjrenna

That's exactly correct. " It may be TiVo that is excluding these tags from the listings. "



Alan Gordon said:


> DirecTV (who uses Gracenote) would (most of the time) have Season Finale/Series Finale tags as well.
> 
> It may be TiVo that is excluding these tags from the listings.


----------



## markjrenna

I know for a fact, FiOS uses Gracenote. And so does TiVo (for now).



TonyD79 said:


> I'm confused. Fios and TiVo have matched since I got TiVo again. If TiVo used gracenote then how did fios match if they didn't?


----------



## CoxInPHX

Jed1 said:


> Another big loser in this deal is Arris. Their Arris Whole Home Solution (Moxi) uses TMS for it s guide service.


This brings up an interesting thought. Arris purchased Moxi for the UI. But, I don't believe Arris ever updated the original Moxi UI much, if any. The Data Sheet is dated June 2011.

Now Arris has also purchased Pace, which uses TiVo software for it's hardware for certain MSOs. It makes me wonder if Arris and TiVo will become closer partners.


----------



## CoxInPHX

mdavej said:


> I agree Comcast used Gemstar years ago, but they are no longer listed on Rovi's website:
> 
> http://www.rovicorp.com/customers.html


Cox is not listed here either, but legacy equipment still use the Rovi Passport Echo IPG.

Cox Contour (original in-house/NDS IPG), I believe was TV Guide.

Cox Contour 2 is the X1 platform licensed from Comcast.


----------



## BobCamp1

lew said:


> Posters are making assumptions without any facts to support them. We have no idea if the client list on Gracenote's website is inclusive. There might be clients which don't want to be listed. There might be clients Gracenote doesn't want to list.


Thank God somebody said this. It's pretty ridiculous to draw any conclusions from what is not on a website.

For example, this forum doesn't specifically say I'm originally from Earth. That obviously means I'm a green, three-headed alien from Neptune. When Tivo switches to Rovi guide data, which is a clear sign that the world is ending, you all can pack up your Tivos and come over to my place. But I must warn you that the cable goes out frequently, as there is 2.9 billions miles of it.


----------



## mdavej

BobCamp1 said:


> Thank God somebody said this. It's pretty ridiculous to draw any conclusions from what is not on a website.
> 
> For example, this forum doesn't specifically say I'm originally from Earth. That obviously means I'm a green, three-headed alien from Neptune. When Tivo switches to Rovi guide data, which is a clear sign that the world is ending, you all can pack up your Tivos and come over to my place. But I must warn you that the cable goes out frequently, as there is 2.9 billions miles of it.


So data, missing or otherwise, from the company website is less valid than someone making statements with no evidence at all. Got it.

I haven't drawn any definite conclusions from the data I've posted, which is why I use qualifiers like "according to" and "apparently". Other posters have no evidence, yet post things like "I know for a fact".

You guys read way more into my posts than I've actually written. I guess I'm flattered?


----------



## morac

BobCamp1 said:


> Thank God somebody said this. It's pretty ridiculous to draw any conclusions from what is not on a website.
> 
> For example, this forum doesn't specifically say I'm originally from Earth. That obviously means I'm a green, three-headed alien from Neptune. When Tivo switches to Rovi guide data, which is a clear sign that the world is ending, you all can pack up your Tivos and come over to my place. But I must warn you that the cable goes out frequently, as there is 2.9 billions miles of it.


I believe the fact that TiVo was listed on GraceNote's website for at least 9 months (Sept 2015 is the earliest their customers page was archived), promoting working "with TiVo for well over a decade" and suddenly was removed about 2 weeks ago speaks volumes.

I still think TiVo is using GraceNote's data, but based on GraceNote's removal of all references to TiVo and Rovi acquiring TiVo, it's pretty obvious that partnership will be ending sometime in the near future.


----------



## tampa8

mdavej said:


> The only cable/satellite customers Gracenote still has (according to their website) are DirecTV and Time Warner Cable.
> 
> http://www.gracenote.com/customers/
> 
> If you guys have other sources for this kind of info, please share it.


Gracenote has DISH, period. It says it in each and every episode description. It has been discussed in other forums. What you need to do is read websites carefully, it says _featured_ customers.


----------



## foghorn2

There's a Twilight Episode where aliens are purposefully messing up Gracenote Guide data making Humans kill each other so they can easily take over.


----------



## mdavej

tampa8 said:


> Gracenote has DISH, period. It says it in each and every episode description. It has been discussed in other forums. What you need to do is read websites carefully, it says _featured_ customers.


Read my post carefully. I said "customers" and "according to their website", nothing more. Dish is a Rovi customer, just not for guide data. I asked for more sources, and you gave it, a first-hand account of actual data you've seen on Dish. Now we're getting somewhere.


----------



## tampa8

mdavej said:


> Read my post carefully. I said "customers" and "according to their website", nothing more. Dish is a Rovi customer, just not for guide data. I asked for more sources, and you gave it, a first-hand account of actual data you've seen on Dish. Now we're getting somewhere.


Just not for guide data? What the heck else are we talking about. 
But that still is not what the Gracenote website says, "according to their website" all that can be determined is DISH is not a featured company, not that they are not customers. Directv is not listed either on that page but is elsewhere on the Gracenote site.


----------



## tampa8

markjrenna said:


> That's exactly correct. " It may be TiVo that is excluding these tags from the listings. "


DISH also includes that info (Season premiere, ending etc..) I wondered why TIVO doesn't, but the actual description is the same.


----------



## mdavej

tampa8 said:


> Just not for guide data? What the heck else are we talking about.
> But that still is not what the Gracenote website says, "according to their website" all that can be determined is DISH is not a featured company, not that they are not customers. Directv is not listed either on that page but is elsewhere on the Gracenote site.


Rovi site says Dish is a customer. Gracenote site doesn't mention Dish. You've seen "Gracenote" on the actual guide data on Dish. Those are all the facts we have so far. I think we can logically conclude that Dish still uses Gracenote for the guide and Rovi for some other services.

I said DirecTV and TWC were Gracenote's only cable/satellite customers *according to their website*. Is that not still a true statement? Click the link, look a the list, Dish isn't on the list. That's what "according to their website" means. I never claimed it was an all inclusive list or that it was even correct. I simply stated what I saw on the website. Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## lew

morac said:


> I believe the fact that TiVo was listed on GraceNote's website for at least 9 months (Sept 2015 is the earliest their customers page was archived), promoting working "with TiVo for well over a decade" and suddenly was removed about 2 weeks ago speaks volumes.
> 
> I still think TiVo is using GraceNote's data, but based on GraceNote's removal of all references to TiVo and Rovi acquiring TiVo, it's pretty obvious that partnership will be ending sometime in the near future.


That tells us nothing. Did tivo request removal? Tivo doesn't want to promote a rival company. Did Gracenote remove it. They don't want to publicize a future competitor.

I have no idea if the contract with Gracenote was extended month to month. One year? Four years? Termination provisions if tivo wants to switch before the end of the contract.

I'm one of the few posters who wish the change would occur NOW.

Do you think it was removed because tivo is switching June 1? That is one conclusion. JMO but I'd think we'd have read an announcement by tivo if the guide data vendor was going to chane in the next 12 hours.

Assume the merger/sale is completed. It's logical to assume Tivo (name of the combined company) will wind up using Tivo (Rovi's) guide data.

edited to add:

This thread discusses the switch from Gracenote to Rovi on or before May 14. I'll give another month. End of the traditional TV season. Possible grace period in the contract.

I think it's a given tivo will switch to Rovi, probably no later then the merger (plus any time needed to fine tune data and give whatever notice is required to Gracenote.


----------



## markjrenna

It's because I do know what I am referring to as fact. I don't have some web link as proof so feel free to believe what you want.



mdavej said:


> So data, missing or otherwise, from the company website is less valid than someone making statements with no evidence at all. Got it.
> 
> I haven't drawn any definite conclusions from the data I've posted, which is why I use qualifiers like "according to" and "apparently". Other posters have no evidence, yet post things like "I know for a fact".
> 
> You guys read way more into my posts than I've actually written. I guess I'm flattered?


----------



## mdavej

markjrenna said:


> It's because I do know what I am referring to as fact. I don't have some web link as proof so feel free to believe what you want.


I couldn't care less who anybody (except Tivo) uses for guide data. And I have no reason to doubt your assertions about FIOS.

My issue is that statements like "I know for a fact" are accepted without question, but posting actual data is called "making assumptions without any facts to support them".

I give up.


----------



## lessd

mdavej said:


> I couldn't care less who anybody (except Tivo) uses for guide data. And I have no reason to doubt your assertions about FIOS.
> 
> My issue is that statements like "I know for a fact" are accepted without question, but posting actual data is called "making assumptions without any facts to support them".
> 
> I give up.


If facts were so important then Donald......


----------



## atmuscarella

mdavej said:


> I couldn't care less who anybody (except Tivo) uses for guide data. And I have no reason to doubt your assertions about FIOS.
> 
> My issue is that statements like "I know for a fact" are accepted without question, but posting actual data is called "making assumptions without any facts to support them".
> 
> I give up.





lessd said:


> If facts were so important then Donald......


How "facts" are viewed varies greatly depending on the person, I have noted several basic groups:
Facts are bull sh** - what ever I believe is correct.
Facts are something you make up and use to manipulate people. 
Facts are only important if they support my beliefs.
Facts matter and are what shape my beliefs.
From what I can tell the number of people who fall into the fourth category is declining significantly.


----------



## dlfl

atmuscarella said:


> How "facts" are viewed varies greatly depending on the person, I have noted several basic groups:
> Facts are bull sh** - what ever I believe is correct.
> Facts are something you make up and use to manipulate people.
> Facts are only important if they support my beliefs.
> Facts matter and are what shape my beliefs.
> From what I can tell the number of people who fall into the forth category is declining significantly.


Yep. I don't think human nature has improved one bit since the Ten Commandments were deemed necessary. Some parts of the world appear to be more civilized but that's just because technology has made it easier to satisfy our desires without tromping on other people's rights.

BTW, it's "fourth" not "forth" (as long as we're emphasizing being factual). 

OK, we're off topic -- but it was already on fire when I got here.


----------



## BobCamp1

morac said:


> I believe the fact that TiVo was listed on GraceNote's website for at least 9 months (Sept 2015 is the earliest their customers page was archived), promoting working "with TiVo for well over a decade" and suddenly was removed about 2 weeks ago speaks volumes.


It means they have people who change the website from time to time, changing which companies they emphasize their relationship with. The same way everybody else periodically changes their advertisements. Tivo is now a competitor, so Gracenote is not going to advertise them anymore.

Tivo is less than 0.5% of the market, so who really cares if your guide data is used in a Tivo? It's better to emphasize that your guide data is used in more popular DVRs such as DirecTV and Dish.

I will agree that since the new Tivo company will have free guide data generated internally, the Tivo products will eventually change over. When FIOS did this, they had this thing called an "official announcement" several months in advance. I think we also got a message on the DVR telling us that the switch had occurred, but I can't remember for certain.


----------



## BobCamp1

mdavej said:


> So data, missing or otherwise, from the company website is less valid than someone making statements with no evidence at all. Got it.
> 
> I haven't drawn any definite conclusions from the data I've posted, which is why I use qualifiers like "according to" and "apparently". Other posters have no evidence, yet post things like "I know for a fact".
> 
> You guys read way more into my posts than I've actually written. I guess I'm flattered?


I wasn't specifically referring to you. People are taking your ball and running with it.

But please note that other companies previously have had official announcements, or postings by an employee in another forum, that have indicated which guide data provider their service is using. I know for a fact that FIOS is using Gracenote.


----------



## tampa8

BobCamp1 said:


> I know for a fact that FIOS is using Gracenote.


They are using Gracenote. You simply can not draw the conclusion some are from the Gracenote site.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> CBS wasn't the only logo to go through a change.
> 
> FOX is now gray instead of white, and both the ABC and NBC logos have changed as well in the last week or so. All three logos (and possibly CBS as well) have been reduced in size too.
> 
> The NBC logo looks alright in the Playlist and such, but the logo looks horrible in the Guide IMO. NBC looks freaking tiny compared to other logos in my Guide. They really didn't need to reduce the size of ANY of them. There was PLENTY of room.


I'm really glad that TiVo has changed the NBC logo. It looks SO much better than the previous version, which was WAY too small.

On a personal note, I'm also very glad that TiVo is now correctly displaying a generic MeTV logo instead of the MeTV Des Moines, IA logo they previously used.


----------



## JoeKustra

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm really glad that TiVo has changed the NBC logo. It looks SO much better than the previous version, which was WAY too small.
> On a personal note, I'm also very glad that TiVo is now correctly displaying a generic MeTV logo instead of the MeTV Des Moines, IA logo they previously used.


Good job with NBC. MSNBC is still wrong and now HDNET Movies is worse.


----------



## UCLABB

JoeKustra said:


> Good job with NBC. MSNBC is still wrong and now HDNET Movies is worse.


What is it with you guys and logos? Frankly, I've never paid a bit of attention to them. I rarely search a guide, but if I do, I do it by channel number. I sure as hell am not going to surf through the guide looking for a logo. Am I missing something here?


----------



## JoeKustra

UCLABB said:


> What is it with you guys and logos? Frankly, I've never paid a bit of attention to them. I rarely search a guide, but if I do, I do it by channel number. I sure as hell am not going to surf through the guide looking for a logo. Am I missing something here?


I have logos disabled in the guide. Color me OCD.


----------



## HarperVision

The logos just help me see and identify which channel is which quickly and in many ways subconsciously. Way easier than just call signs or channel numbers alone.


----------



## TonyD79

HarperVision said:


> The logos just help me see and identify which channel is which quickly and in many ways subconsciously. Way easier than just call signs or channel numbers alone.


I never thought that on directv but the names were more consistent there. Cable systems and TiVo seem to use a naming system that is not consistent so logos help.


----------



## Jed1

In TiVo's SEC filing they mention the change over to Rovi data and the deal with Gracenote is now ended.

http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...9MCZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9FTlRJUkUmc3Vic2lkPTU3



> Question:
> Robert Warren Stone
> 
> Cowen and Company, LLC, Research Division
> 
> Great. You mentioned one thing thats actually my next question. TiVo has been using another supplier for metadata up to now, thats one thing that Rovi has that they dont. Have you been able to transition that over to a Rovi-supplier relationship? Or do you expect to in the near term?
> 
> Answer:
> Peter C. Halt
> 
> Chief Financial Officer
> 
> Rob, TiVo just filed its 10-Q, and if people take a look at the TiVo 10-Q, they actually comment on their situation with their metadata provider, which is Gracenote. Their contract with Gracenote has now expired, and they are in the wind-down period of that contract. They entered into an agreement with Rovi to transition to Rovi metadata, and thats underway.


Rovi's10-Q SEC filing:
http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...9MCZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9FTlRJUkUmc3Vic2lkPTU3



> Gracenote (formerly known as Tribune Media Services, Inc.) is currently the sole supplier of the program guide data for the TiVo service and we are transitioning the TiVo service to program guide data supplied by Rovi Corporation. Gracenote is the current sole supplier of program guide data for the TiVo service. Our current Television Listings Data Agreement with Gracenote expired on May 19, 2016. On April 28, 2016, we entered into an agreement with Rovi Corporation to supply program guide data for the TiVo service after the expiration of our agreement with Gracenote. Our agreement with Gracenote provides us with a wind-down period post-expiration to allow for the transition of the TiVo service from use of Gracenote to alternative program guide data. Gracenote has indicated that it is unwilling to provide a short term extension and that any longer term extension would be at a significant increase in cost. If we are unable to transition the TiVo service to use program guide data from Rovi by the end of the wind-down period (or if Gracenote ceased providing program guide data to the TiVo service prior to the expiration of the wind-down period and prior to our transition to Rovi program guide data), we would be subject to a period of time in which we are unable to provide the TiVo service to our customers and certain distribution partners, or alternatively, we may be unable to provide certain features or functionality which are currently part of the TiVo service for a period of time for our customers and certain distribution partners. In any of these events, our business would be harmed through the potential loss of customers, distribution partners and the associated revenues as well as potential contractual penalties and damages.


----------



## NashGuy

HarperVision said:


> The logos just help me see and identify which channel is which quickly and in many ways subconsciously. Way easier than just call signs or channel numbers alone.


Yeah, I'm a big fan of logos too. They help me ID channels at a glance. Plus, hey, they're pretty.


----------



## astrohip

Jed1 said:


> In TiVo's SEC filing they mention the change over to Rovi data and the deal with Gracenote is now ended.


Finally, some hard data to mull over. Thank you for posting that. I wish there had been some dates in that filing, such as when TiVo expects to cut over, or when their wind-down period ends.

If I'm TiVo, I'm working my @ss off to get the switch-over done ASAP. Should the worst case scenario actually occur...

_If we are unable to transition the TiVo service to use program guide data from Rovi by the end of the wind-down period, we would be subject to a period of time in which we are unable to provide the TiVo service to our customers
_
it would be catastrophic to those customers (AKA us), and devastating to TiVo's reputation and future.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Jed1 said:


> In TiVo's SEC filing they mention the change over to Rovi data and the deal with Gracenote is now ended.
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...9MCZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9FTlRJUkUmc3Vic2lkPTU3
> 
> Rovi's10-Q SEC filing:
> http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...9MCZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9FTlRJUkUmc3Vic2lkPTU3


Wow, good find. I wonder why they didn't specify how long the "wind-down period" is. Is that a couple weeks or a couple months?


----------



## rainwater

astrohip said:


> If I'm TiVo, I'm working my @ss off to get the switch-over done ASAP. Should the worst case scenario actually occur...


The problem is TiVo/Rovi seemed overly optimistic that they could transition to Rovi data very quickly when the acquisition was announced. I personally think the transition is going to be much harder than they are letting on. It is in their best interests to get it done soon. I can't imagine how bad of a impact having all TiVo customers without guide data would be.


----------



## rainwater

DevdogAZ said:


> Wow, good find. I wonder why they didn't specify how long the "wind-down period" is. Is that a couple weeks or a couple months?


According to this agreement ( http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1088825/000119312510206778/dex102.htm ) at least some of the data may be accessible by TiVo from Gracenote until 2018 but that could just include TMS unique ids and cover art.


----------



## DevdogAZ

rainwater said:


> According to this agreement ( http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1088825/000119312510206778/dex102.htm ) at least some of the data may be accessible by TiVo from Gracenote until 2018 but that could just include TMS unique ids and cover art.





> ...TiVo may continue to use the DVD Cover Art and Gracenote Software during a wind-down period not to extend past 2018, per the terms of TMS agreement with Gracenote, provided this Letter Agreement continues to auto-renew during that wind-down period.


I would doubt that the conditions of the termination of the License Agreement will allow for this particular Letter Agreement to continue to auto-renew, which would mean the rights will likely cease much earlier than 2018.


----------



## rainwater

DevdogAZ said:


> I would doubt that the conditions of the termination of the License Agreement will allow for this particular Letter Agreement to continue to auto-renew, which would mean the rights will likely cease much earlier than 2018.


TiVo didn't terminate the license agreement. They just let it expire. If I read that agreement correctly, 2018 would be the wind down date in that case. However, it is possible a newer agreement superceded this agreement so it may not even be valid anymore.


----------



## Jed1

rainwater said:


> TiVo didn't terminate the license agreement. They just let it expire. If I read that agreement correctly, 2018 would be the wind down date in that case. However, it is possible a newer agreement superceded this agreement so it may not even be valid anymore.


Actually when this agreement was made Tribune was leasing the Gracenote software from Sony. Sony sold Gracenote to Tribune in December of 2013.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2082840/sony-to-sell-gracenote-to-tribune-for-170m.html

It appears that the wind down period is 90 days after the expiration of the contract.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1088825/000119312510206778/dex102.htm



> NOW, THEREFORE, for good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are hereby acknowledged, TMS and TiVo hereby enter into this Letter Agreement, which sets forth the parties understanding of the provision of particular data and software agreed to in connection with the Tribune Media Services License Agreement effective May 14, 2007 (License Agreement).
> 
> 1. All capitalized terms in this Letter Agreement will have the same meaning as set forth in the License Agreement. Except where expressly set forth otherwise in this Letter Agreement, all terms of the License Agreement will apply and are incorporated herein by reference. All capitalized terms not defined herein shall have the meaning ascribed to them in the License Agreement.
> 
> 2. DVD Cover Art means, collectively, TMS Unique IDs for Gracenote DVD Cover Art and Gracenote DVD Cover Art images. Gracenote Software means the Gracenote software development kit as provided hereunder.
> 
> 3. DVD Cover Art shall be deemed TMS Partner Data as that term is used in the License Agreement, and, moreover, it shall be deemed to be part of that certain TMS Partner Data that is included in the definition of TMS Licensed Data in the License Agreement.
> 
> 4. Subject to the terms and conditions of the License Agreement and the license restrictions set forth in Section 3 of the License Agreement, TMS hereby grants to TiVo, during the Letter Agreement Term, a non-exclusive, non-assignable, fee-bearing license to use the Gracenote Software solely to access the DVD Cover Art.
> 
> 5. TiVo [*]. TiVo [*]. Notwithstanding the foregoing, TiVo [*]. The Gracenote Software may not be programmed or operated to access the Gracenote Server, directly or indirectly, on behalf of applications other than those running on the TiVo server where the Gracenote Software resides.
> 
> 6. Pricing and Payment. [*].
> 
> 7. TiVo agrees as soon as reasonably possible, which is anticipated to be by May 1, 2010, include the following specific attribution for the DVD Cover Art in the System Information screen: Portions of the DVD cover art and related content copyright © of Gracenote or its providers.
> 
> 8. *The initial term (Initial Letter Agreement Term) of this Letter Agreement shall commence on the Effective Date and shall continue for a period of one year. This Letter Agreement shall automatically renew for successive one-year terms (each a Letter Agreement Renewal Term, and together with the Initial Letter Agreement Term, the Letter Agreement Term), unless a party gives written notice at least ninety days prior to the expiration of the then-current term of its intention to not renew.* This Letter Agreement will expire upon expiration or termination of the License Agreement. *If TMS rights to sublicense the DVD Cover Art and/or Gracenote Software under the agreement between Gracenote and TMS expire or are terminated for any reason during the Letter Agreement Term, TiVo may continue to use the DVD Cover Art and Gracenote Software during a wind-down period not to extend past 2018, per the terms of TMS agreement with Gracenote, provided this Letter Agreement continues to auto-renew during that wind-down period.* In the event of a reasonable request from Gracenote, TMS may request that TiVo take down a specific piece or pieces of DVD Cover Art. In the event TMS does so, it will make best efforts promptly to secure a suitable replacement.
> 
> 9. TMS shall indemnify, defend and hold harmless TiVo and its officers, directors, employees, representatives and agents from and against any and all third party claims, damages, costs and expenses (including reasonable out-of-pocket attorneys fees) arising out of or relating to any allegation that the Gracenote Software, as provided by TMS or modified with TMS consent or at TMS direction, infringes or otherwise violates any third partys patent, trademark, copyright, trade secret, right of publicity, or other intellectual property or personal right; except, however, to the extent that such allegation arises out of any edits, modifications or alterations TiVo makes to the Gracenote Software without TMS written consent. If TMS believes that a claim of infringement is likely, then TMS may modify the allegedly infringing Gracenote Software so that a claim of infringement is no longer likely. If TMS receives written notice of an alleged infringement, then TMS may: (i) modify the allegedly infringing Gracenote Software so that it no longer infringes, or (ii) if such modifications cannot be obtained using commercially reasonable efforts and on commercially reasonable terms, terminate this Letter Agreement upon notice to TiVo.
> 
> 10. TMS PROVIDES THE GRACENOTE SOFTWARE ON AN AS IS BASIS, MAKES NO EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES REGARDING THE GRACENOTE SOFTWARE, AND DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
> 
> 11. TiVo does not, by virtue of this Letter Agreement or by virtue of its access to the Gracenote Software, obtain any copyright or other proprietary right or interest in or to the Gracenote Software except the rights specifically granted to TiVo herein.
> 
> 12. The Gracenote Software shall be considered Confidential Information for purposes of the License Agreement.


The bolded underlined portion talks about the arrangement between Tribune and Gracenote and if that should expire TiVo will have access to Gracenote software for cover art until 2018. 
Since Tribune bought Gracenote 6 years after this deal then Tribune now owns the Gracenote software and this portion would no longer be in effect as Tribune would not lose the deal with Gracenote.
So then TiVo would lose access the the DVD cover art 90 days after the expiration of the deal.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Jed1 said:


> It appears that the wind down period is 90 days after the expiration of the contract. http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1088825/000119312510206778/dex102.htm
> 
> The bolded underlined portion talks about the arrangement between Tribune and Gracenote and if that should expire TiVo will have access to Gracenote software for cover art until 2018. Since Tribune bought Gracenote 6 years after this deal then Tribune now owns the Gracenote software and this portion would no longer be in effect as Tribune would not lose the deal with Gracenote. So then TiVo would lose access the the DVD cover art 90 days after the expiration of the deal.


That reference to 90 days has nothing to do with the wind-down period. That's the amount of notice required to prevent the contract from automatically renewing each year.


----------



## Alan Gordon

UCLABB said:


> What is it with you guys and logos? Frankly, I've never paid a bit of attention to them. I rarely search a guide, but if I do, I do it by channel number. I sure as hell am not going to surf through the guide looking for a logo. Am I missing something here?


First of all, I'm an OTA user, so surfing through the guide wouldn't take very long, and I usually watch recordings, so it's not like I'm surfing the guide for very much, but channel logos make it easier. It's not that I look for a logo, but whether that as I'm looking at the guide, the logo is there. I don't have to look for it, because I see it.

As an OTA viewer, an example of my guide might look like:

27-1 WTXLDT (ABC)
27-2 WTXLDT2 (Bounce)
27-3 WTXLDT3 (Weather)
27-4 WTXLDT4 (QVC)

At this moment, WTXL only has a logo for ABC, so the guide looks like this:



Without logos, I need to actually read those numbers (oh the horror!), but with logos, I can tell what is what faster.

I also have suggestions turned on on my TiVo, and often I'll go through the folder and cull the suggestions. Being able to scroll down and see the logo of a channel has on more than one occasion saved me from going into the recordings information to find out what channel it was recorded on. No big deal, but it did save me time, which is nice.

On a personal level, my first Set-Top-Box was a Sony B65 (DirecTV) receiver that had logos in the guide. It was what I was used to, and quite frankly, I've never cared for channel guides without them. I also work in a graphic field, so logos and branding is important to me. I'm also slightly O.C.D., so some of the channels in my guide that don't have logos when I know there are other channels that HAVE those logos, or channels in my guide that have incorrect channels, or even the channel in my channel lineup that is analog and hasn't been on the air in YEARS bothers me. I strongly dislike incorrect information!

Plus, as an OTA user, it breaks up the guide between all the duplicate channels I receive (3 ABC, 2 FOX, etc.).


----------



## lew

Rovi has an extensive collection of metadata including cover art.
http://www.rovicorp.com/insights/insights_recent_articles/rovi-donates-rare-media-collection.html

Hopefully the transition will be smoother then posters fear.

I'm more concerned with the basic program data needed for season passes. I can live with issues and delays with DVD covers and indexing streaming media.


----------



## morac

lew said:


> Rovi has an extensive collection of metadata including cover art.
> 
> http://www.rovicorp.com/insights/insights_recent_articles/rovi-donates-rare-media-collection.html
> 
> Hopefully the transition will be smoother then posters fear.
> 
> I'm more concerned with the basic program data needed for season passes. I can live with issues and delays with DVD covers and indexing streaming media.


I'm less worried about cover art than I am about guide data, which wasn't mentioned at all in the above filing. The TiVo will continue to function if the cover art is wrong. It won't function if the guide data is wrong.

That Rovi stated that they don't want to be a consumer hardware company is also troubling.


----------



## rainwater

lew said:


> Rovi has an extensive collection of metadata including cover art.
> http://www.rovicorp.com/insights/insights_recent_articles/rovi-donates-rare-media-collection.html
> 
> Hopefully the transition will be smoother then posters fear.
> 
> I'm more concerned with the basic program data needed for season passes. I can live with issues and delays with DVD covers and indexing streaming media.


It is not the guide data that is the issue. It is converting all the lineups and user data (one passes, etc) that is the big issue. That is where the nightmare comes in. That is also where TiVo is spending their resources on right now.


----------



## lew

morac said:


> I'm less worried about cover art than I am about guide data, which wasn't mentioned at all in the above filing. The TiVo will continue to function if the cover art is wrong. It won't function if the guide data is wrong.
> 
> That Rovi stated that they don't want to be a consumer hardware company is also troubling.


That's sort of my, not well written, point. I'm happy if initially tivo functionality, the ability to schedule recordings and create a season pass, works well from the go.

Posters in this thread are concerned with things like Netflix identification numbers. JMO but its not the end of the world if it take a short period of time (weeks) to deliver the full one pass features.

I'm disappointed tivo waited until they had less then a month with Gracenote before signing up with Rovi. I'd had hoped tivo would have finished testing prior to the expiration date of the existing contract.

My point in posting the link, it sure sounds like Roiv has the kind of data tivo is currently using with Gracenote.

JMO it's not the end of the of world if I have to re run guided setup, or the equivalent clear function, so existing one passes get recreated with Rovi program IDs.

I'm glad it's happening now. A complete debacle, as some posters fear, could put a monkey wrench in the merger.


----------



## TonyD79

It is pretty standard practice to get test or demo software prior to buying, so I would assume TiVo has been working with rovi data long before any contract was signed.


----------



## davezatz

TonyD79 said:


> It is pretty standard practice to get test or demo software prior to buying, so I would assume TiVo has been working with rovi data long before any contract was signed.


I agree. But this is TiVo we're talking about.  And it sounds like they thought they'd be able to work out a short-term extension.


----------



## mdavej

Microsoft made the transition from Gracenote to Rovi with only 3 people working on the Microsoft side (as the lead MS engineer told us). I'm not going to rehash how rough it was (and still is). But it does at least function, so I think the worst case scenario of a long term outage is highly unlikely. What is likely is that there will be significantly more errors in the data and more missing data. I'm hoping for the best, but expecting that long term, we'll be worse off than we are now.


----------



## lew

rainwater said:


> It is not the guide data that is the issue. It is converting all the lineups and user data (one passes, etc) that is the big issue. That is where the nightmare comes in. That is also where TiVo is spending their resources on right now.


Isn't that done automatically when you rerun guided setup? Sending an update which makes you rerun setup or have tivo automatically run setup using your existing zip and provider can't be that hard. A less drastic conversion might be preferable.

Send a message. Give us a week to rerun setup. After the week tivo will make you run setup. Or after 10 days or so you'll have to run setup because your guide data ran out.

Edited to add. Mdavej I think this is a good thing for us. Rovi doesn't have to pay a third party for guide data. JMO but Rovi has less reason to try and back out of lifetime service commitment then another company.


----------



## morac

I don't know if this is related to the changeover or not, but I've started having programs not record. I just had something today not record despite showing up in the guide data. It was never scheduled.

There was no reason in the history, but I found another airing and selected it and it is giving an option to create a one pass for that show even though I already have one, so now I have two one passes for the same show (different title but same title art).

Edit: looking at that the upcoming for the two one passes. That one missed episode is in the "other" one pass. All other episodes are in the original one. I hope this isn't a taste of things to come.


----------



## Space

morac said:


> ...
> 
> Edit: looking at that the upcoming for the two one passes. That one missed episode is in the "other" one pass. All other episodes are in the original one. I hope this isn't a taste of things to come.


If the WMC migration from Grancenote to Rovi is any indication, this is exactly what you should expect.


----------



## rainwater

lew said:


> Isn't that done automatically when you rerun guided setup? Sending an update which makes you rerun setup or have tivo automatically run setup using your existing zip and provider can't be that hard. A less drastic conversion might be preferable.
> 
> Send a message. Give us a week to rerun setup. After the week tivo will make you run setup. Or after 10 days or so you'll have to run setup because your guide data ran out.
> 
> Edited to add. Mdavej I think this is a good thing for us. Rovi doesn't have to pay a third party for guide data. JMO but Rovi has less reason to try and back out of lifetime service commitment then another company.


It will require more than forcing guided setup. TiVo still has to convert OnePasses and manual recordings. There is a lot of work that is involved in converting all of the data. To me, the issue is not the data itself. It will be relatively ok.

However, Rovi uses a different format for a lot of their data. For instance, if TiVo just uses Rovi's normal guide data, it will break every single wishlist recording for sports as Rovi uses different titles and description formats for sports events.


----------



## morac

rainwater said:


> It will require more than forcing guided setup. TiVo still has to convert OnePasses and manual recordings. There is a lot of work that is involved in converting all of the data. To me, the issue is not the data itself. It will be relatively ok.
> 
> However, Rovi uses a different format for a lot of their data. For instance, if TiVo just uses Rovi's normal guide data, it will break every single wishlist recording for sports as Rovi uses different titles and description formats for sports events.


I wonder how much of an effort Rovi/TiVo is really going to put into doing this considering how much they currently have on their plate. It sounds like it will be a fairly large effort to do and I don't know if they have the manpower to do it.

http://investor.tivo.com/mobile.vie...ERVNDPVNFQ1RJT05fUEFHRSZleHA9JnN1YnNpZD01Nw==


----------



## randian

morac said:


> I wonder how much of an effort Rovi/TiVo is really going to put into doing this considering how much they currently have on their plate.


Then why did Rovi buy TiVo? I can think of better ways to throw away a few hundred million dollars than screwing paying customers (who will soon stop paying) moments after a buyout. As unpalatable as X1 is I can switch if my TiVo becomes unreliable.


----------



## morac

randian said:


> Then why did Rovi buy TiVo? I can think of better ways to throw away a few hundred million dollars than screwing paying customers (who will soon stop paying) moments after a buyout. As unpalatable as X1 is I can switch if my TiVo becomes unreliable.


Rovi didn't buy TiVo for its customers. Rovi bought TiVo for its patents. Their investor call basically said that they have no interest in being a retail device manufacturer.

That said, I think they'll make some kind of attempt at consolidating the guide changes, I just don't think they'll put enough resources on it. It's hard enough getting things done during a merger when employees are wondering if they'll be laid off or not. Adding a deadline makes it that much harder.


----------



## lew

morac said:


> Rovi didn't buy TiVo for its customers. Rovi bought TiVo for its patents. Their investor call basically said that they have no interest in being a retail device manufacturer.
> 
> That said, I think they'll make some kind of attempt at consolidating the guide changes, I just don't think they'll put enough resources on it. It's hard enough getting things done during a merger when employees are wondering if they'll be laid off or not. Adding a deadline makes it that much harder.


A PP said microsoft only needed 3 employees when they went from Gracenote to Rovi.

I'll agree tivo might not spend the resources to make the change to the satisfactions of posters on TCF.


rainwater said:


> It will require more than forcing guided setup. TiVo still has to convert OnePasses and manual recordings. There is a lot of work that is involved in converting all of the data. To me, the issue is not the data itself. It will be relatively ok.
> 
> However, Rovi uses a different format for a lot of their data. For instance, if TiVo just uses Rovi's normal guide data, it will break every single wishlist recording for sports as Rovi uses different titles and description formats for sports events.


 Maybe Tivo won't spend the resources necessary to convert over our wishlists. We might have to re-create them. I'd hope Tivo will be able to convert over our One passes. Our One Passes are available on line. Tivo could convert them on their servers. Maybe S3 users will have to redo our SPs. Maybe even all users.

Rovi licenses guide data and meta data. Tivo licenses software. Millions of cable customers are using tivo licensed software. I'm sure Rovi would like to continue generating licensing fees. That means they have to get Rovi data working with tivo software. That has to be a priority. The issue isn't getting to work for us, it's getting it to work for the MSO customers.


----------



## mrizzo80

Anyone else notice the "Next Gen UI" bullet point on the TiVo project list? I wonder how far that is from release. Will they tease some screenshots of it?


----------



## morac

lew said:


> A PP said microsoft only needed 3 employees when they went from Gracenote to Rovi.


Didn't someone also say that Microsoft botched the switch so badly that it basically killed their TV offering?


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom

morac said:


> Didn't someone also say that Microsoft botched the switch so badly that it basically killed their TV offering?


Microsoft already officially killed their TV offering by not porting MEDIACENTER to Windows 10. The data migration came well after that time.


----------



## bbrown9

What guide data to cable companies like Comcast and Verizon FIOS use for their DVRs?


----------



## TonyD79

morac said:


> Rovi didn't buy TiVo for its customers. Rovi bought TiVo for its patents. Their investor call basically said that they have no interest in being a retail device manufacturer. That said, I think they'll make some kind of attempt at consolidating the guide changes, I just don't think they'll put enough resources on it. It's hard enough getting things done during a merger when employees are wondering if they'll be laid off or not. Adding a deadline makes it that much harder.


Despite your exaggerating what he said about the retail market, the entire TiVo portfolio after the patents run out next year is supplying dvrs via cable systems. Those are real live tivos and no way in hell they are going to screw up literally millions of customers intentionally.

Rovi didn't buy TiVo for its patents. They don't have enough useful life in them. I don't know what rovi bought them for except to expand their footprint which means dvrs and other devices stay alive even if TiVo doesn't want to manufacture them anymore (and haven't wanted to for several years, it's not new).

Let's ignore what rovi said which was that the direct retail pipeline drives TiVo innovation. So, yes, let's buy a company for its expiring patents and then end the pipeline that makes them innovative. And, and we will use their name at the same time because we aren't going to pursue the things that made that brand name valuable.

Really, the sky is falling attitude around here leads to completely nonsensical theories on what businesses do.


----------



## morac

TonyD79 said:


> Despite your exaggerating what he said about the retail market, the entire TiVo portfolio after the patents run out next year is supplying dvrs via cable systems. Those are real live tivos and no way in hell they are going to screw up literally millions of customers intentionally.
> 
> Rovi didn't buy TiVo for its patents. They don't have enough useful life in them. I don't know what rovi bought them for except to expand their footprint which means dvrs and other devices stay alive even if TiVo doesn't want to manufacture them anymore (and haven't wanted to for several years, it's not new).
> 
> Let's ignore what rovi said which was that the direct retail pipeline drives TiVo innovation. So, yes, let's buy a company for its expiring patents and then end the pipeline that makes them innovative. And, and we will use their name at the same time because we aren't going to pursue the things that made that brand name valuable.
> 
> Really, the sky is falling attitude around here leads to completely nonsensical theories on what businesses do.


Only some of TiVo's patents expire in 2018 (not next year), most do not. Yes, TiVo main "trickplay" patent does, but TiVo has filed over 200 patents over the years. So yes, Rovi bought TiVo for its patents (Rovi boasts on their web site about how they have over 5000 patents). Rovi definitely didn't want a consumer electronics device. I'm not even sure they wanted a MSO product.

Buying a company that's main product is a household DVR now, what with the industry moving to streaming and cloud based DVRs makes as much sense as a company buying a VCR manufacturing company in the early 2000s.

Basically Rovi gets two things from this. They get TiVo's patents and they get a lot of MSOs dependent on Rovi Metadata, which is their real bread and butter.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...ivo&FIELD1=ASNM&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=ptxt


----------



## randian

Dependent until their contracts can be canceled. If Rovi metadata is as bad as reputed, and the MSOs are no doubt aware of their reputation, they will scramble for an alternative if that reputation turns out to be well-founded.


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## rainwater

randian said:


> Dependent until their contracts can be canceled. If Rovi metadata is as bad as reputed, and the MSOs are no doubt aware of their reputation, they will scramble for an alternative if that reputation turns out to be well-founded.


There isn't really any alternative other than Gracenote. And most of the complaints about Rovi are about the WMC conversion. The guide data itself is not that terrible and is already in use by many providers.


----------



## Space

rainwater said:


> There isn't really any alternative other than Gracenote. And most of the complaints about Rovi are about the WMC conversion. The guide data itself is not that terrible and is already in use by many providers.


Yes, it is "not that terrible". Such praise!

Honestly, for some things it is difficult to say if the issue is the Rovi source data or if it is the way that data is being imported in to WMC by Microsoft (they definitely did a half-assed job).

I guess we'll just have to see what happens... But I hope the much larger customer base that comes with TiVo will have a positive effect overall on the quality of the Rovi data (although it might get worse for TiVo customers before it gets better for everyone).


----------



## DevdogAZ

randian said:


> Dependent until their contracts can be canceled. If Rovi metadata is as bad as reputed, and the MSOs are no doubt aware of their reputation, they will scramble for an alternative if that reputation turns out to be well-founded.


Many MSOs already use Rovi and have for quite some time. So if it were really that bad, those MSO customers would be leaving Rovi in droves. Instead, it seems like more MSOs are leaving Gracenote and moving to Rovi.


----------



## innocentfreak

DevdogAZ said:


> Many MSOs already use Rovi and have for quite some time. So if it were really that bad, those MSO customers would be leaving Rovi in droves. Instead, it seems like more MSOs are leaving Gracenote and moving to Rovi.


MSOs also push VOD over DVR recordings.


----------



## randian

DevdogAZ said:


> Many MSOs already use Rovi and have for quite some time. So if it were really that bad, those MSO customers would be leaving Rovi in droves.


I'm not so sure that the MSOs have the same interests as their customers. Unreliable guide data pushes people to live viewing, which the MSOs prefer to time-shifting viewers like me. It seems to me that reliable guide data is as much against their interests as unreliable guide data. It needs to be good enough to prevent people from stopping their DVR subscriptions in disgust, but not so good they migrate to exclusively time-shifting their viewing.


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## foghorn2

And all these MSO's customers will soon see "Powered By Tivo" on the STB's.


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## NashGuy

DevdogAZ said:


> Many MSOs already use Rovi and have for quite some time. So if it were really that bad, those MSO customers would be leaving Rovi in droves. Instead, it seems like more MSOs are leaving Gracenote and moving to Rovi.


Yeah, I'm not really concerned so much about the quality of Rovi data. I am a little concerned about the transition over to it though. Could be messy for a little while but will probably be fine after that.


----------



## jcthorne

I also believe once the change over to Rovi sourced guide data that fixes for incorrect lineups and series information will be easier to get implemented. The pass through of data from users to tivo to Gracenote has never worked well. Once the guide data is generated and maintianed by Tivo corp, the users have a much more direct line to request and get fixes.

There is every possibility that this change over ends up being a positive thing for Tivo users long term. No doubt there will be some headaches during the switch. Likely around wishlists and onepasses. Especially ones that are not simple series season passes.


----------



## JoeKustra

jcthorne said:


> I also believe once the change over to Rovi sourced guide data that fixes for incorrect lineups and series information will be easier to get implemented. The pass through of data from users to tivo to Gracenote has never worked well. Once the guide data is generated and maintianed by Tivo corp, the users have a much more direct line to request and get fixes.
> 
> There is every possibility that this change over ends up being a positive thing for Tivo users long term. No doubt there will be some headaches during the switch. Likely around wishlists and onepasses. Especially ones that are not simple series season passes.


I can't seem to find a link that let's me submit lineup or listing problems to Rovi. Do you have one?


----------



## lew

JoeKustra said:


> I can't seem to find a link that let's me submit lineup or listing problems to Rovi. Do you have one?


Why do you need one? What service or product that you're currently using includes Rovi guide data?

You want a link
http://connect.microsoft.com/site1145

Rovi deals with customers, the company licensing the data from Rovi.

We'll communicate with tivo who will deal with Rovi. By the end of the year it should be one company.

Edited to add

I should have just said Rovi doesn't need such a link. Their listings are error free.


----------



## BobCamp1

rainwater said:


> It will require more than forcing guided setup. TiVo still has to convert OnePasses and manual recordings. There is a lot of work that is involved in converting all of the data. To me, the issue is not the data itself. It will be relatively ok.
> 
> However, Rovi uses a different format for a lot of their data. For instance, if TiVo just uses Rovi's normal guide data, it will break every single wishlist recording for sports as Rovi uses different titles and description formats for sports events.


It's actually pretty trivial. It's a lot of grunt work, but it's totally possible and scripts would take care of almost all of it. As somebody who went through this with FIOS, it's not a big deal. It's barely noticeable.

The only thing I had to do was create a new season pass, because the "Graham Norton Show" was now called "The Graham Norton Show". It was an absolutely horrible experience to highlight the show in the guide and push the record button twice. And then I had to delete the old series pass! I think I'm scarred for life.

Other shows like that were caught and fixed automatically, so I'm assuming this one was just missed for some reason. I had around 35 series passes at the time, and that was the only one that had a problem.

Maybe if you had an insanely complicated wishlist, you might briefly get tripped up. You'd have to go in there and change it. But the wishlist is smart enough to search for the title AND subtitle, and I think that's what you're referring to with the sports problem. So there should be a minimum amount of issues there too.

And why on Earth would manual recordings be affected? Now you're just being hysterical.


----------



## davezatz

BobCamp1 said:


> It's actually pretty trivial. [...] Now you're just being hysterical.


How smooth (or not) it is for the customers seems like it'd be largely dependent on how much time the team has to do the mappings and such - we don't know when they started and when they need to be done by. But TiVo obviously feels the effort is notable enough to list it as a risk factor in a financial disclosure.


----------



## lew

davezatz said:


> How smooth (or not) it is for the customers seems like it'd be largely dependent on how much time the team has to do the mappings and such - we don't know when they started and when they need to be done by. But TiVo obviously feels the effort is notable enough to list it as a risk factor in a financial disclosure.


Posters are making this way too complicated. Microsoft went from Gracenote to Rovi last summer. The mappings already exists.

I'm sure there will be some issues. Some posters are implying our tivos will all but be bricks.

Tivo has around 7 million customers. They want it to work.

My concern is with S3 and older units. I can't see tivo devoting many resources. Not the end of the world if I have to redo all my SPs on my Tivo HD

Do tivos for MSO currently use Gracenote but a different guide vendor for their own units?


----------



## DevdogAZ

davezatz said:


> How smooth (or not) it is for the customers seems like it'd be largely dependent on how much time the team has to do the mappings and such - we don't know when they started and when they need to be done by. But TiVo obviously feels the effort is notable enough to list it as a risk factor in a financial disclosure.


Listing risk factors in a financial disclosure is all about CYA. When drafting such documents, you intentionally try to list every conceivable problem, no matter how remote, because then if it happens, you can tell investors they were sufficiently warned. So I don't see the inclusion as an indication that TiVo sees some not-insignificant level of risk. I see it as their lawyers doing their job.


----------



## BobCamp1

davezatz said:


> How smooth (or not) it is for the customers seems like it'd be largely dependent on how much time the team has to do the mappings and such - we don't know when they started and when they need to be done by. But TiVo obviously feels the effort is notable enough to list it as a risk factor in a financial disclosure.


The financial report basically says they shouldn't throw the switch until they are ready. Which may mean they pay Gracenote on a monthly basis until they are ready. I'm sure Gracenote is charging a lot more for out-of-contract service, but this is a short-term cost and is better than the alternative of NO guide data.


----------



## jcthorne

JoeKustra said:


> I can't seem to find a link that let's me submit lineup or listing problems to Rovi. Do you have one?


The guide and listings are not sourced from Rovi yet. There is noting to submit. For that matter Tivo and Rovi have not yet merged either.


----------



## BobCamp1

lew said:


> My concern is with S3 and older units. I can't see tivo devoting many resources. Not the end of the world if I have to redo all my SPs on my Tivo HD


Well they still send the DST adjustment script out to all the Series 1 units twice a year.


----------



## jlb

lew said:


> .....
> 
> My concern is with S3 and older units. I can't see tivo devoting many resources. Not the end of the world if I have to redo all my SPs on my Tivo HD
> 
> .....


For me, if this happens, and it's during the summer, its not that big a deal.


----------



## JoeKustra

jcthorne said:


> The guide and listings are not sourced from Rovi yet. There is noting to submit. For that matter Tivo and Rovi have not yet merged either.


I guess I should have indicated sarcasm. I've used Rovi with my Sony DVR and Sony TV. They don't have an end user link. I can state the guide was as accurate as the Gracenote guide, but it just wasn't as reliable. Check the DHG thread on AVS Forum. The DHG is the largest HD DVR thread. Probably 50% of those posts were guide related.

In three years with TiVo, their servers have a pretty good record, but the guide has always been there, even when it was wrong. And anyone can compare the data with zap2it. What will be our "second opinion" when/if they merge?


----------



## DevdogAZ

JoeKustra said:


> I guess I should have indicated sarcasm. I've used Rovi with my Sony DVR and Sony TV. They don't have an end user link. I can state the guide was as accurate as the Gracenote guide, but it just wasn't as reliable. Check the DHG thread on AVS Forum. The DHG is the largest HD DVR thread. Probably 50% of those posts were guide related.


The point is that in the past, and currently until the TiVo acquisition is complete, Rovi is not a consumer-facing company so they don't need to have a way for consumers to report inaccurate guide data. If you were a Sony customer, then the proper channel was for you to report issues to Sony and then Sony had a direct contractual relationship with Rovi and could report those things.

I think most people assume that when the acquisition is complete, at least some of TiVo's guide data team will stay on board and there will be a way for TiVo customers to report guide issues directly to the company.


----------



## tarheelblue32

So I just noticed a guide data error that could have caused me problems. The new episode of The Americans on FX which airs tonight at 10p.m. recorded this morning at 6:10a.m., only what it recorded this morning was a paid advertisement program. If I hadn't noticed the error and scheduled a manual recording for tonight, I would have missed the episode. 

I checked the guide data on TVGuide.com and Zap2It.com. TVGuide has the correct guide data, but Zap2It has the incorrect guide data that caused the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't GraceNote provides the Zap2It guide data? I guess nobody's perfect.


----------



## lessd

tarheelblue32 said:


> So I just noticed a guide data error that could have caused me problems. The new episode of The Americans on FX which airs tonight at 10p.m. recorded this morning at 6:10a.m., only what it recorded this morning was a paid advertisement program. If I hadn't noticed the error and scheduled a manual recording for tonight, I would have missed the episode.
> 
> I checked the guide data on TVGuide.com and Zap2It.com. TVGuide has the correct guide data, but Zap2It has the incorrect guide data that caused the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't GraceNote provides the Zap2It guide data? I guess nobody's perfect.


Thanks, I got the same as you but was out so have to record the show at another time, at least it is showing again a few days later.


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## JoeKustra

The Americans. Too late now:http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=541023


----------



## SullyND

JoeKustra said:


> The Americans. Too late now:http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=541023


This was an issue with Gracenote and not Rovi, right?


----------



## JoeKustra

SullyND said:


> This was an issue with Gracenote and not Rovi, right?


Not guilty:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10903804#post10903804

Zap2it was always correct, as was TitanTV.


----------



## lpwcomp

lessd said:


> Thanks, I got the same as you but was out so have to record the show at another time, at least it is showing again a few days later.


You should subscribe to the "Season Pass Alerts" forum.


----------



## davezatz

BobCamp1 said:


> The financial report basically says they shouldn't throw the switch until they are ready. Which may mean they pay Gracenote on a monthly basis until they are ready. I'm sure Gracenote is charging a lot more for out-of-contract service, but this is a short-term cost and is better than the alternative of NO guide data.


From the report:

_"Gracenote has indicated that it is unwilling to provide a short term extension"_

So it may not be a short-term cost. But hopefully TiVo has got this under control and will at least begin the migration by the 90 day wind down expiration (which is what I'm hearing the number could be from a non-TiVo source). I can imagine a scenario where some things are in place in time, but there could be months of clean up on certain elements of the transition.


----------



## slowbiscuit

lpwcomp said:


> You should subscribe to the "Season Pass Alerts" forum.


And more importantly, check your ToDo list on a daily basis because you might be the first person to see the issue, and/or it's a low volume show that no one else cares about.

This is vital now with the new guide data implementation, whenever that happens. It will not go smoothly IMO.


----------



## BobCamp1

davezatz said:


> From the report:
> 
> _"Gracenote has indicated that it is unwilling to provide a short term extension"_
> 
> So it may not be a short-term cost. But hopefully TiVo has got this under control and will at least begin the migration by the 90 day wind down expiration (which is what I'm hearing the number could be from a non-TiVo source). I can imagine a scenario where some things are in place in time, but there could be months of clean up on certain elements of the transition.


May 14th was in the past. The Tivos are still working. Gracenote gave them a short-term extension. It just depends on what everyone's defintion of "short" is. To me, the fact it's still working on May 15 indicates they came to some kind of short-term deal for a month or two or three. I don't think that would be cheap.

I can also imagine your scenario as well -- the basic stuff is there but the advanced stuff that makes OnePass work takes a little longer.


----------



## lessd

slowbiscuit said:


> And more importantly, check your ToDo list on a daily basis because you might be the first person to see the issue, and/or it's a low volume show that no one else cares about.
> 
> This is vital now with the new guide data implementation, whenever that happens. It will not go smoothly IMO.


My wife does that on her TiVo, but *the Americans *screw up is the first time this has happened to me on any program, and now that summer is here most of what I watch if off, next fall I guess I will have to pay attention, and I wanted TiVo to do all that for me, atomically.


----------



## davezatz

BobCamp1 said:


> May 14th was in the past. The Tivos are still working. Gracenote gave them a short-term extension. It just depends on what everyone's defintion of "short" is. To me, the fact it's still working on May 15 indicates they came to some kind of short-term deal for a month or two.


There is a contractual 60-90 day "wind down period" in their agreement -- beyond that timeframe is what sounds like a too pricey, longer term contract extension that they'd like to avoid.


----------



## rainwater

BobCamp1 said:


> May 14th was in the past. The Tivos are still working. Gracenote gave them a short-term extension.


Gracenote has made it clear there will be no extension. What is in place now is the wind-down period that is standard with Gracenotes clients. The question is how long is this period and can TiVo get the migration done before it expires.


----------



## tarheelblue32

davezatz said:


> There is a contractual 60-90 day "wind down period" in their agreement -- beyond that timeframe is what sounds like a too pricey, longer term contract extension that they'd like to avoid.


TiVo and Rovi better have all hands on deck working on this.


----------



## foghorn2

tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo and Rovi better have all hands on deck working on this.


Except Fletcher Christian, in his case, its AHOD, All Hands On Dick!

for the Mods:

dick 2 (dĭk) Slang
3. Chiefly British A fellow; a guy.


----------



## tampa8

That's what she said....


----------



## JWhites

Hello there. I have an inquiry as to the status of this venture. Has there been a date given to when the new guide provider will start? Has it started yet? When will we see more then a 14 day listing?


----------



## lew

JWhites said:


> Hello there. I have an inquiry as to the status of this venture. Has there been a date given to when the new guide provider will start? Has it started yet? When will we see more then a 14 day listing?


The rumor is the wind down period is 90 days, mid August. I thought guide data was always 10 to 15 days out.


----------



## rainwater

JWhites said:


> When will we see more then a 14 day listing?


What would be the point? Most of the data would be inaccurate that far out. Networks usually don't provide detailed guide info until closer to 10-14 days out anyways.


----------



## HarperVision

Plus it's usually only 12 days ahead and 2 days back, making it a total of 14 days.


----------



## davezatz

Gonna be interesting...


----------



## DevdogAZ

davezatz said:


> Gonna be interesting...


Did something change? Are we assuming that the changeover will happen sometime in the next couple of weeks? Is there any indication that TiVo has already started using some Rovio data?


----------



## Jed1

DevdogAZ said:


> Did something change? Are we assuming that the changeover will happen sometime in the next couple of weeks? Is there any indication that TiVo has already started using some Rovio data?


Shareholders will vote tomorrow to merge TiVo with Rovi at a special meeting.
http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...9MCZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9FTlRJUkUmc3Vic2lkPTU3

http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...9MCZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9FTlRJUkUmc3Vic2lkPTU3


----------



## lew

davezatz said:


> Gonna be interesting...


Do you have any insight as to how the testing is going? Do you still think mid August is when tivo loses Gracenote?


----------



## rainwater

Jed1 said:


> Shareholders will vote tomorrow to merge TiVo with Rovi at a special meeting.
> http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...9MCZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9FTlRJUkUmc3Vic2lkPTU3
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...9MCZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9FTlRJUkUmc3Vic2lkPTU3


That has nothing to do with the contract ending with Gracenote.


----------



## ej42137

rainwater said:


> That has nothing to do with the contract ending with Gracenote.


One might speculate that TiVo would have renewed their contract if not for the Rovi acquisition.


----------



## rainwater

ej42137 said:


> One might speculate that TiVo would have renewed their contract if not for the Rovi acquisition.


Of course but the date of the merger has nothing to do with it. At this point TiVo has already let their contract expire with Gracenote. What happens with Rovi is really inconsequential.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Jed1 said:


> Shareholders will vote tomorrow to merge TiVo with Rovi at a special meeting.
> http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...9MCZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9FTlRJUkUmc3Vic2lkPTU3
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...9MCZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9FTlRJUkUmc3Vic2lkPTU3


Just to clarify, those notices are only setting today as the date of record to determine who is a shareholder that gets to cast a vote. The special meeting is not being held today.


----------



## Jed1

JoeKustra said:


> I can't seem to find a link that let's me submit lineup or listing problems to Rovi. Do you have one?


Some good news. Rovi finally updated the listings for our system. The bad news it took over two months to get done. I submitted another email to fix some of the channel errors but thank god they are minor.
http://www.tvguide.com/listings/


----------



## mdavej

Seems like we've discussed this before, but are we certain TVguide.com still actually uses Rovi data?

http://variety.com/2013/digital/news/cbs-buys-tv-guide-digital-1200490531/


----------



## JoeKustra

Jed1 said:


> Some good news. Rovi finally updated the listings for our system. The bad news it took over two months to get done. I submitted another email to fix some of the channel errors but thank god they are minor.
> http://www.tvguide.com/listings/


Thanks. While tvguide.com is CBS and still has the MSNBC logo wrong, TitanTV.com has all the logos correct as far as my tier goes. What was fixed? I only have the value pack, which leaves me in the dark for the whole h.264 Comcast issue. So what are the odds that SE will move to h.264 since there are so many free channels? Things have been running really good on my boxes.


----------



## Jed1

JoeKustra said:


> Thanks. While tvguide.com is CBS and still has the MSNBC logo wrong, TitanTV.com has all the logos correct as far as my tier goes. What was fixed? I only have the value pack, which leaves me in the dark for the whole h.264 Comcast issue. So what are the odds that SE will move to h.264 since there are so many free channels? Things have been running really good on my boxes.


Rovi stopped updating these lineups when they announced the shutdown of TVGOS in October of 2012 so the lineups were from that point in time. Most of the HD channels were missing from the 600 range and the Mahanoy City one was still from the early transition days when SECV took over SECO.

I don't think SECV will use MPEG 4 as they are considering going to an all IP approach. They want to end the use of delivering content over the traditional modulated RF channels and turn the entire bandwidth of their system into a giant internet pipe and then deliver the content that way.
If they actually follow through on this then TiVo is completely done for here unless TiVo develops and markets an IP solution for consumer use.


----------



## Jed1

mdavej said:


> Seems like we've discussed this before, but are we certain TVguide.com still actually uses Rovi data?
> 
> http://variety.com/2013/digital/news/cbs-buys-tv-guide-digital-1200490531/


I can tell by the way the cable systems are listed when I put in my zip code. With Tribune it shows only one line up for my system and with Rovi it shows the three separate line ups for my system.
I am wondering if TiVo will have to include a channel editor like TVGOS had since that is the way the TV Guide system worked going all the way back to when Gemstar created it.
This way you will get a master list of channels in the editor and if the channel is not turned on in the guide you can go into the editor and turn it on and assign it a channel number.


----------



## aaronwt

HAs anything changed? I know this evening I was watching a Fantastic 4 movie that was supposedly from 1994. According to the guide. Of course it was actually from 2015.


----------



## zerdian1

I have two recorded Fantastic Four movies on my TiVo, one from 2005 and one from 2015.
2005 recording has Jessica Alba recorded on 1/25.
2015 recording has Kate Mara recorded on 5/12.
I have looked through a few dozen of my recorded movies and the info appears to be correct.
I have so many movies and shows that I keep with my WeaKnees TiVo Roamio Pro with 12TB of storage currently at 62% capacity.


----------



## foghorn2

zerdian1 said:


> I have two recorded Fantastic Four movies on my TiVo, one from 2005 and one from 2015.
> 2005 recording has Jessica Alba recorded on 1/25.
> 2015 recording has Kate Mara recorded on 5/12.
> I have looked through a few dozen of my recorded movies and the info appears to be correct.
> I have so many movies and shows that I keep with my WeaKnees TiVo Roamio Pro with 12TB of storage currently at 62% capacity.


When you have more hours recorded than the hours left to live, thats awesome!


----------



## JoeKustra

As we approach the 90 day mark, I think the guide now extends one more day. I might just be a coincidence or the result of the three day outage that seemed stuck at 8/17. Or it could just be that the guide is now almost identical to Gracenote's data on zap2it. I have noticed that MSNBC has generic data starting 8/15, but they might just be on vacation even though zap2it indicates new prime time episodes.


----------



## Krandor

I'm seeing data through the 24th.


----------



## JoeKustra

Krandor said:


> I'm seeing data through the 24th.


I have data through 8/24 at 2pm. DST is 2pm, 1pm is for the winter. Last week it would have been the 23rd. Looking at zap2it, it ends at 23:59 on 8/24. Rovi's guide on the DVR+ ends 8/25 at 09:00 EDT.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Since the Guide Data came back after the long weekend glitch, we get it (by my experience) about 12 hours earlier than before...i.e., it used to be generally mid-afternoon, but now it's the early hours of the morning.


----------



## JoeKustra

I never have figured out the reason different parts of the country end at different times. It could be different servers. Mine has always ended at 1pm or 2pm. Since the time does change, I figure that UTC is involved somewhere. But more data is better than less data.

I wonder if it will change after the Olympics.


----------



## lpwcomp

Mine generally ends with the 7:30PM entry.


----------



## TonyD79

JoeKustra said:


> As we approach the 90 day mark, I think the guide now extends one more day. I might just be a coincidence or the result of the three day outage that seemed stuck at 8/17. Or it could just be that the guide is now almost identical to Gracenote's data on zap2it. I have noticed that MSNBC has generic data starting 8/15, but they might just be on vacation even though zap2it indicates new prime time episodes.


I have real data for msnbc. Olympics Tuesday at 2 says men's water polo; sailing. And dateline extra Saturday 8/20 have real episodes.


----------



## JoeKustra

TonyD79 said:


> I have real data for msnbc. Olympics Tuesday at 2 says men's water polo; sailing. And dateline extra Saturday 8/20 have real episodes.


Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant prime time: 7pm to 10pm EDT. While the descriptions are always generic, the OAD and "new" icon were there, as they are tonight and tomorrow night. It's still good on zap2it. Maybe by Monday it will be fixed.

BTW, where is there a link between tvguide and Rovi? There was one, but I thought CBS Interactive now controls tvguide.com.


----------



## TonyD79

JoeKustra said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant prime time: 7pm to 10pm EDT. While the descriptions are always generic, the OAD and "new" icon were there, as they are tonight and tomorrow night. It's still good on zap2it. Maybe by Monday it will be fixed. BTW, where is there a link between tvguide and Rovi? There was one, but I thought CBS Interactive now controls tvguide.com.


Generic data for the nightly shows on fios as well.


----------



## Jed1

It looks like September 15th is the change over to TV Guide data. Series 1 owners are being notified that their units will not be compatible with the new data stream. The last call to Tribune will be on the 15th and for series 1 owners that will take them about 14 days out.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542601


> "Dear Series 1 Owner,
> I'm writing to alert you that after September 29th, your TiVo® Series1 DVR will not be able to create any new recordings.
> TiVo is upgrading the data associated with all programming in order to provide superior program guide information to our subscribers. Unfortunately this new data does not work with our oldest device - the venerable TiVo Series1. As a result, while you will always be able to access your existing recordings, your Series1 DVR will make its last call to update the TiVo Guide on September 15th. This last call will include 14 days of program guide information, which will allow you to record shows through September 29th. After that date Season Passes will no longer record and the TiVo Guide will indicate that no program information is available.
> 
> We know that this is disappointing, and we feel terrible about relaying this news. We understand how much you rely on your TiVo Series1, and we appreciate you being a loyal TiVo owner. Please accept our apology. The TiVo Series1 was released in 1999 and last manufactured in 2002, with roughly 3,500 Series1 DVRs still in active service. They've had a great run and we're truly sorry to see them go.
> 
> For this inconvenience, please accept a free $75 VISA prepaid card to use any way you would like1.
> REDEEM NOW"


There will also be another question and answer session with Ira Bahr but it will be a limited amount of questions.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542602


----------



## hytekjosh

Jed1 said:


> It looks like September 15th is the change over to TV Guide data. Series 1 owners are being notified that their units will not be compatible with the new data stream. The last call to Tribune will be on the 15th and for series 1 owners that will take them about 14 days out.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542601
> 
> There will also be another question and answer session with Ira Bahr but it will be a limited amount of questions.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542602


$75 is generous for a device that hasn't been produced in 14 years... they could've offered $0 and cessation of service would've been reasonable. Surprised they didn't offer an upgrade to a newer product..


----------



## rainwater

Jed1 said:


> It looks like September 15th is the change over to TV Guide data.


It will surely happen before then. That is the cut off date for old data. I doubt TiVo would try to update every single TiVo device on that date.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

rainwater said:


> It will surely happen before then. That is the cut off date for old data. I doubt TiVo would try to update every single TiVo device on that date.


I believe that's the last day data will be sent under the old system. So Series 1 units will get their last download on 9/15, and run out of data a couple of weeks later.


----------



## lpwcomp

This caught my eye:



> TiVo is upgrading the data associated with all programming in order to provide superior program guide information to our subscribers.


I hope whoever wrote this had someone nearby with a fire extinguisher to put out his flaming pants.


----------



## rainwater

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I believe that's the last day data will be sent under the old system. So Series 1 units will get their last download on 9/15, and run out of data a couple of weeks later.


Yes. But again, TiVo will need to move existing TiVos to the new data before then. They couldn't handle that big of a switch in one day especially if a software update is required.


----------



## lpwcomp

How does this not put TiVo in violation of their lifetime service agreement? "Lifetime" means life of the unit, not life of the unit or until we decide it's not worth it.


----------



## mrizzo80

lpwcomp said:


> How does this not put TiVo in violation of their lifetime service agreement? "Lifetime" means life of the unit, not life of the unit or until we decide it's not worth it.


I don't know if this applies here, but I remember from college that "lifetime" from an accounting standpoint generally means useful life (5,7,10 years.) I think that number is tied to depreciation. So maybe TiVo has set the useful lifetime of a box to something like 5/7/10 years.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

lpwcomp said:


> How does this not put TiVo in violation of their lifetime service agreement? "Lifetime" means life of the unit, not life of the unit or until we decide it's not worth it.


It does, hence the $75 make good offer which is probably cheaper.


----------



## jth tv

Just in time for the fall season, it there are problems august would have been better, right now there is just not that much on worth recording.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The offer is available now, no need to wait if they don't want to.


----------



## JWhites

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Well, unfortunately I believe this section in the 2007 Agreement would pose a problem with that solution - as RoVi is clearly a TiVo competitor.
> 
> 3. LICENSE RESTRICTIONS.
> (a) TiVo will not provide TMS Unique IDs or an entire set of any individual TMS Data Product, TMS Partner Data, or New Development Product to TiVo Promotional Partners, TiVo Subscribers, TiVo Licensees, TiVo Commercial Service recipients, or TMS Competitors. For purposes of this Agreement, entire set means substantially all of the contents of any TMS Data Product, TMS Partner Data, or New Development Product as defined in the corresponding data specification. By way of illustration of what entire set means, TiVo may..
> 
> But again, I still believe a system can be built from scratch in 30 days IF needed.


Since Rovi bought TiVo, how are they a TiVo competitor?


----------



## JWhites

jth tv said:


> As my boss used to say, a database is a database, is a database. They are pretty much all the same thing and an expert can be hired to use/fix/modify it. Databases are built for that. I've met a few genius's who probably get something usable very quickly. But I've met plenty who would say they could but are all just talk.
> 
> Hire the best.


That's the problem, TiVo _doesn't_ hire the best. We see this time and time again every time a software update rolls out and it breaks more things then it fixes. Hell, from what I've heard, the Premiere could easily run as fast as the Roamio if they did a better job at writing the software. Where does TiVo get their programmers, a middle school?


----------



## HarperVision

lpwcomp said:


> This caught my eye:
> 
> 
> 
> TiVo is upgrading the data associated with all programming in order to provide superior program guide information to our subscribers
> 
> 
> 
> I hope whoever wrote this had someone nearby with a fire extinguisher to put out his flaming pants.
Click to expand...

I believe I read that their revamped UI will possibly do away with a program guide as we know it and use tiles and channel names instead, similar to the streaming services like SlingTV and Vue.

I believe it was while I was reading information on the new TiVo UI being released in England on Virgin Media boxes. Maybe that's why Series Ones can't render the new "guide" properly? I'll see if I can find it again.

PS - I think this is what I recall reading:

http://www.multichannel.com/news/content/virgin-media-unleashes-tivo-update/407031 


> The update also adds a "smart" search for VOD and catch-up services that requires only the first letter of a show title and the system auto-fills the rest, and some visual enhancements, such as image-based tiles for VOD titles and a shift from channel numbers to channel logos. The upgrade also adds a bookmarking feature for TV, VOD and Netflix content that's placed in a "My Shows" folder.


----------



## JWhites

jth tv said:


> But would people be all that upset if only the scheduling the DVR part worked ? I don't use suggestions and don't use Tivo to search Netflix, I use Netflix to search Netflix.


I wouldn't. I have a PS3 and Chromecast to watch Hulu and Netflix. I use TiVo for TiVo. No suggestions, no recommendations, just schedule and record the season passes and that's it.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

HarperVision said:


> I believe I read that their revamped UI will possibly do away with a program guide as we know it and use tiles and channel names instead, similar to the streaming services like SlingTV and Vue.
> 
> I believe it was while I was reading information on the new TiVo UI being released in England on Virgin Media boxes. Maybe that's why Series Ones can't render the new "guide" properly? I'll see if I can find it again.
> 
> PS - I think this is what I recall reading:
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/news/content/virgin-media-unleashes-tivo-update/407031


Their VOD catalog now shows poster art, but that's all that changed. I'm sure this isn't the reason. But I asked in the Q&A Ira thread what's different about Rovi data that is incompatible with Series 1. Maybe he'll answer.


----------



## HarperVision

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Their VOD catalog now shows poster art, but that's all that changed. I'm sure this isn't the reason. But I asked in the Q&A Ira thread what's different about Rovi data that is incompatible with Series 1. Maybe he'll answer.


You have to read the whole thing though, BigJim:



> *......and a shift from channel numbers to channel logos.*


----------



## lpwcomp

JWhites said:


> Since Rovi bought TiVo, how are they a TiVo competitor?


I think he meant to write that "Rovi is clearly a _*TMS*_ competitor".


----------



## JWhites

BobCamp1 said:


> I didn't say they directly spoke to Rovi about it. That's not a wink. I've been in the middle of this as well, but with two private companies. Maybe the rules are different. I know that my company had a project that directly competed with the future parent company, and work suddenly slowed to a crawl. People were taken off of that project. Rumors flew that we were about to be bought. When the acquisition was officially announced, all work on that project ceased the next week. There was no direct order before the acquisition, it was just an assumption made by our company to not waste manpower on something that was more than likely going to be canceled anyway.
> 
> I think we agree, we're just arguing over semantics. Tivo has a responsibility to continue business as usual until the merger happens, so they're going to have to renew the Gracenote contract for one year. However, since they want to remain as attractive to Rovi as possible, and Rovi may make them switch guide data once the merger is complete, they probably won't renew the Gracenote contract for another four year stretch. Tivo will at least put in a clause in the Gracenote contract saying that if they get bought or merge then the contract is dissolved.


That's all fine and dandy but who exactly is going to hold TiVo to that responsibility of business continuing as usual? What recourse is there if they don't? No matter what happens the customer is going to suffer.


----------



## JWhites

TonyD79 said:


> There are adults involved her. Not children. Not lovers.


You be surprised at how petty and childish a company can be if there is no one there to stop them.


----------



## JWhites

BobCamp1 said:


> They're acting as a corporation who's trying to persuade another corporation into merging with them. Tivo isn't going to do anything to tick Rovi off, such as locking into a long-term contract with a direct competitor. That's common sense. And not true independence.
> 
> There's a lot of     going on in these negotiations. If Rovi keeps mentioning that they have their own guide data, Tivo will read between the lines and assume that's going to be one of the conditions of the merger.


Why the hell don't the subscribers, us, the customers, have a controlling say in this? We're the only ones truly affected by this buffoonery.


----------



## JWhites

atmuscarella said:


> And your point is what? That we should all go and sell our TiVos? I haven't even bothered to sell the 4-5 of them I don't use. Or perhaps that we should all go hide under the covers and pee our pants?
> 
> There is nothing I (and I am guessing most people) are going to do about this one way or the other. If some day my TiVos don't meet my needs I will move on other than that I am enjoying what I have and being amused by people who posting about how TiVo is dead, OTA is dead, linear broadcasts are dead, the world is ending etc. etc..


Except for the whole "no other alternatives" issue. Even Arris is slowly killing off Moxi. https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r3...-hardware-support-winding-down-August-12-2016


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

HarperVision said:


> You have to read the whole thing though, BigJim:


Logos didn't replace numbers, they were added next to them. We got that update too. This stuff wasn't part of a revamped UI. Their update only caught up to us, except for the VOD stuff that is unique to them.


----------



## HarperVision

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Logos didn't replace numbers, they were added next to them. We got that update too. This stuff wasn't part of a revamped UI. Their update only caught up to us, except for the VOD stuff that is unique to them.


I'm not so sure that's all that's happened. Do you have links? I don't think their rollout is even complete yet and maybe these more advanced "features" are only going to be released and used with the new Virgin Media TiVo V6?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

HarperVision said:


> I'm not so sure that's all that's happened. Do you have links? I don't think their rollout is even complete yet and maybe these more advanced "features" are only going to be released and used with the new Virgin Media TiVo V6?


That's all that happened. The pictures and logos are all part of this update, not the unseen new UI. We don't know anything about that yet.

https://www.uswitch.com/broadband/news/2016/08/virgin_media_upgrades_tivo_boxes/


----------



## HarperVision

BigJimOutlaw said:


> That's all that happened. The pictures and logos are all part of this update, not the unseen new UI. We don't know anything about that yet.
> 
> https://www.uswitch.com/broadband/news/2016/08/virgin_media_upgrades_tivo_boxes/


I think that's what I'm saying though, maybe that's what is _going to_ happen with the updated UI?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

HarperVision said:


> I think that's what I'm saying though, maybe that's what is _going to_ happen with the updated UI?


Maybe. But if so, you're the only one saying it.  We don't know anything yet. The UI definitely needs a spit shine.


----------



## JWhites

ncted said:


> If the guide data starts sucking on my Roamio, I will have little patience before I drop Tivo. The good guide data is a big part of what I am paying for every month. Of course, being monthly makes it a lot easier to drop Tivo if I want to as well.


But who would you move to if you do? That's my concern if I followed your route. I'd hate to have to go back to using Comcast's equipment, but I would if TiVo forced my hand.


----------



## JWhites

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Logos didn't replace numbers, they were added next to them. We got that update too. This stuff wasn't part of a revamped UI. Their update only caught up to us, except for the VOD stuff that is unique to them.


Honestly, I'm quite happy to finally see these channel logos that have been complained about for almost a decade finally updated and implemented.


----------



## JWhites

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Logos didn't replace numbers, they were added next to them. We got that update too. This stuff wasn't part of a revamped UI. Their update only caught up to us, except for the VOD stuff that is unique to them.


Honestly, I'm quite happy to finally see these channel logos that I have been complaining about for almost a decade finally updated and implemented.


----------



## JWhites

HarperVision said:


> I believe I read that their revamped UI will possibly do away with a program guide as we know it and use tiles and channel names instead, similar to the streaming services like SlingTV and Vue.
> 
> I believe it was while I was reading information on the new TiVo UI being released in England on Virgin Media boxes. Maybe that's why Series Ones can't render the new "guide" properly? I'll see if I can find it again.
> 
> PS - I think this is what I recall reading:
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/news/content/virgin-media-unleashes-tivo-update/407031


My question is how well will the Premiere handle the new UI?


----------



## JWhites

lpwcomp said:


> I think he meant to write that "Rovi is clearly a _*TMS*_ competitor".


Oh ok.


----------



## JWhites

lpwcomp said:


> I think he meant to write that "Rovi is clearly a _*TMS*_ competitor".


Oh ok. But if TMS/Gracelist is going out of business, wouldn't it be a good idea for TiVo/Rovi to acquire their guide software and ID number thingies and keep everything the way it is on the customer end?


----------



## JWhites

schatham said:


> One more thing, of course the engineers can figure out how to switch guide data providers. Just because some of you can't figure out how does not mean they can't.


Debateable. The people here seem to be smarter then the engineers.


----------



## HarperVision

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Maybe. But if so, you're the only one saying it.  We don't know anything yet. The UI definitely needs a spit shine.


Yes, that's why I posted it.


----------



## JWhites

Series3Sub said:


> Not making sense. Further, logos are not necessarily related to the metadata provider. That would be TiVo, Dish, and others responsibility related to EPG design that may be propriatary via Box maker or box maker pays license fees for EPG.


Between 2009 and 2014 I'd constantly be complaining to TiVo about the channel logos either being out of date (outdated version of the logo)just plain wrong (channel changed format and was rebranded), or missing all together, and every time I was told it was on Comcast's end and complain to them. Comcast has nothing to do with TiVo's guide, TiVo does. When I told TiVo, they then blamed TMS. The guide on Tribune's website was accurate and had the correct logos. Compare that to Moxi, who would either get the logos from http://logos.wikia.com/wiki/Logopedia or would design it from scratch. If the former, it'd be updated within a week. If the latter, within two or three weeks. And you'd get a follow up phone call from the same agent who you spoke to about the issue to begin with to make sure the concern was resolved. Great customer service. I cried when Arris bought them.


----------



## JWhites

Series3Sub said:


> And TiVo would use this to further cripple legacy TiVo's to force people to upgrade, at a pretty big cost, to the current TiVo's. TiVo has been using the death by a thousand cuts for its S1-S3 ever so slowly taking away features, even accessing on-line, a totally unnecessary move to take away on-line features of the S3's.


Well you certainly called it.


----------



## ajwees41

JWhites said:


> Oh ok. But if TMS/Gracelist is going out of business, wouldn't it be a good idea for TiVo/Rovi to acquire their guide software and ID number thingies and keep everything the way it is on the customer end?


who said tms/gracenote was going out of business? Tivo was bought by Rovi who a;ready provides guide data and that is why tivo is switchiing


----------



## JWhites

rainwater said:


> TiVo doesn't get channel logos from Gracenote. They provide the logos themselves. For some reason the process of updating them seems to take years. I'm not sure if missing/inaccurate logos on TiVos is a business decision or lack of resources problem. I doubt switching to Rovi would make a bit of difference in that regard.


As I said in my above post, it's a total mess with TiVo. Moxi was a small company that had a fraction of the employees and resources TiVo does, yet they were able to get the logos updated within weeks, where as you yourself said, it takes TiVo *years*. TiVo doesn't even take responsibility, they just pass the blame on another company instead.
At least all these logos are getting updated in the guide as of late. For the longest time, all the Music Choice channels had no logo in the guide on the box, just in the TiVo app and online. Now it's on the box as well.


----------



## JWhites

mdavej said:


> How do you request logo updates? Do they actually fix them?


Well for the first few years, I just kept complaint to TiVo with channel lineup issues and follow up with a phone call to make sure the ticket didn't get closed. Then when that didn't work I spoke to TiVoMargaret, the VP of product development around 2012 and some changes were made. Because this was the same time that they rolled out an update that changed how the HD UI looked, I mentioned to them that I found it funny that TiVo was so concerned about how pretty their UI looked, but made no effort in making the channel logos accurate, which would help improve the look of it.


----------



## JWhites

Alan Gordon said:


> Do they actually fix them? Sometimes...
> 
> I live within the Albany, GA DMA and have two Roamios I use with OTA. I can pick up channels from MULTIPLE DMAs, though most come from three markets (Albany, GA, Tallahassee, FL, Columbus, GA). Last year, I decided I was going contact TiVo about all the sub-channels missing logos like the Albany, GA ABC affiliate which is on the sub-channel of the NBC affiliate. I contacted TiVo about the MeTV affiliate in Columbus, GA having the CBS logo (it's a sub-channel of the CBS affiliate), and I contacted them last year when the FOX affiliation in Tallahassee, FL switched to a sub-channel of the NBC affiliate. There were more as well...
> 
> A lot of the logos they fixed, but there are still issues...
> 
> For instance, the MeTV affiliate in _*Columbus, GA*_ now has this logo:
> 
> 
> 
> TiVo added a FOX logo to WTWC-DT2 in Tallahassee after I contacted them and told them that FOX switched affiliations. WTLH-DT which formerly had the affiliation still carried the FOX logo even though it's a MeTV affiliate now.
> 
> There's still a lot of false information in the guide lineup for my area though. WTVY-DT4 in Dothan still doesn't have an NBC logo. WFXU in Tallahassee, FL has a logo for The CW and program guide data for it, but I don't think they are an affiliate of The CW anymore. My Roamio has guide data for WTLH #49 (yes, that's right, guide data for an ANALOG channel):
> 
> 
> 
> I contacted TiVo in January about some channels missing sub-channels that launched late last year and early this year back in January. Two of the three missing sub-channels appeared a couple weeks after I reported it, and I'm still waiting on the third (which changed affiliations today!), and I reported a few missing logos (ION, QVC, and WTLH still having a FOX logo). Nothing's changed on them yet...


Oh man you got a MeTV logo? That's pretty awesome. Over here we have that channel but no logo.


----------



## JWhites

ajwees41 said:


> who said tms/gracenote was going out of business? Tivo was bought by Rovi who a;ready provides guide data and that is why tivo is switchiing


This post.


lew said:


> A lot of fear doom and uncertainty in this thread. I can't remember a thread where there so many posts with made up facts, assumed facts and misrepresented facts.
> 
> I didn't know tivo's constract with GraceNote ends on May 14. Probably a good date. Basically the end of the tv season
> 
> Is there any doubt tivo is aware of the expiration date? Could Rovi have presented a proposal to tivo? Outlined how they would meet tivo's needs? Maybe working on beta software.
> 
> Could Rovio license use of the program ID numbers? Cash? Exchange of IP rights? Rovio has thousands of patents. Could Rovio claim the numbers are in the public domain and wait to be sued? Not sure tivo would agree to that risk.
> 
> An idiot posted a quote
> 
> 
> 
> If we were forced to seek an alternative provider of television guide data, there would be significant cost and delay involved in integrating such an alternative source of guide data should we do so in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> *That point is with regards to TMS going out of business, with no notice. Tivo has months to prepare.*
> 
> If Tivo changes guide data, and software changes are required, will tivo update series 3 units? Earlier units. If they decide to EOL series 2 units will they change the software to allow manual recording?
Click to expand...


----------



## Wil

ajwees41 said:


> who said tms/gracenote was going out of business?


Nobody, it turns out. He misunderstood.


----------



## JWhites

Alan Gordon said:


> TiVo hates me! In fact, TiVo is considering selling itself in order to get away from me!!
> 
> If you would re-read my post, you would see that I was talking about the "major OTA" channels. I contacted TiVo about multiple OTA channels (ABC, FOX, The CW). I mentioned that WRBL-DT2 3-2, which had a CBS logo was NOT a CBS station... only WRBL-DT 3-1 was. TiVo added the Des Moines MeTV logo... I certainly didn't expect them to, as I had read repeatedly that TiVo just didn't offer logos for MeTV... I simply informed them that the CBS logo was incorrect.
> 
> I did later inform them that they added the logo for the Des Moines affiliate of MeTV instead of the generic national logo, but they don't appear to be concerned about it...
> 
> I do not subscribe to Cable... I couldn't if I wanted to (it's not available at my location) and I don't like incorrect things. I don't like seeing a MeTV channel with a FOX logo on it for months and months and months, with a history telling me that it won't get changed. One of the stations I contacted them about last year had a logo for The CW, when that station had lost it's affiliation with The CW in 2006. As I stated in the post you quoted, TiVo still has guide data for an analog channel in my lineup... these things won't get corrected unless someone actually makes an effort to get it corrected.
> 
> Also... sub-channels are very rarely "random". These are national networks that aren't always sub-channels. MeTV is the primary affiliation for WTLH-DT in Tallahassee, FL. Most markets have a MeTV affiliation... it's not like someone's asking for a logo for a station's radar channel or the logo for a local Independent station. I truly believe that TiVo should add logos for channels like MeTV, Antenna TV, Grit, Bounce, Comet, etc. Most markets have a good amount of these, it not all of them...
> 
> Also, my time is my business, and if TiVo doesn't want to take the time dealing with logos, they need to remove all logos off TiVos. If they are going to keep logos, it shouldn't be too much to ask to keep them correct!


I totally agree. What's the point in having logos if they're wrong? One of the channels I had been fighting with TiVo about since 2009 was The Hub, (now Discovery Family) which was originally Discovery Kids. TiVo was still using that Discovery Kids logo up until 2012 or so when Margret fixed it. For the life of me I don't know why someone at TiVo can't just flip through the channels to verify the correct logos are mapped to the right channels. Most of these channels are nationally broadcast. The support agents I've talked to in California have told me they have a TiVo in house on Comcast they use for walking customers through menus and settings, and when I've brought the channel logo issue up, they've tuned to those channels and saw the same mislabeling, and escalated it to tier two and if I remember, tier three. It's difficult because if it's escalated as a lineup or program info issue when it isn't, the person just checks against the provider, finds it to be accurate and closes the ticket because they're not bright enough to read that the logo itself is the reason for the ticket, even when the ticket is as blatantly clear as humanly possible.


----------



## JWhites

Well here is a nice example of the inaccuracies of Gracenote vs Rovi. This Friday on NBC, Superstore is airing an Olympic themed episode. On TiVo it says it's Season 2 Episode 1, yet on TV Guide and Comcast, it says it's Season 1 Episode 12. Episode 11 was the Season 1 finale.
Also, speaking of Episode 11, on TiVo the description says "When Amy calls corporate to talk about maternity leave for employees, Ben sends everyone into a frenzy by mentioning unions." The character is named Jonah, and the actor is named Ben. TV Guide and Comcast both show the correct character name.


----------



## JWhites

JoeKustra said:


> My experience with Rovi, several years ago, was a connection done daily at 2am. I'd ask someone with a DVR+ for current information. That DVR can also force a connection at any time.
> 
> It has been posted that the guide end time varies. Mine ends at 2pm EDT or 1pm EST. It has also been posted, and seems true, that new data becomes available after 3:30pm Eastern. With two Roamio boxes, I can find no specific and consistent time for any updates. That also has been observed on threads where the update seems to "lose" a day or two. With a 12 day guide TiVo doesn't give it a very high priority. Rovi supplies a 14 day guide to the DVR+. What is consistent is that a guide connection happens at about 26 hours and no updates happen from 6pm to 2am.
> 
> The exact definition of the length of the guide also varies. If a guide ends at 2am, should that day count? Should a guide that ends next Monday be a 7 day guide or 8 day guide? Should previous days be counted? My guide has information back until 4/29. Lotsa questions.


So do you think when Rovi is used, we'll see 14 future day guide lineup, or will it still be 12 future days and two past days like we have now?


----------



## JWhites

markjrenna said:


> Just to clarify... I should have used PST in my earlier post. In any event... TiVo servers ingest the Gracenote data at 6:30 am PST and it takes 3 hours to complete. Seems long but that is what they told me. So anytime after 9:30 am PST, the data will be current. I went with 11 am to be cautious.


Ok so 6:30am pacific/9:30am eastern is when the serves ingest the Gracenote data, it takes three hours, and 9:30am pacific/12:30pm eastern is when the guide data is nice and fresh?
When the Rovi guide data is put in place, will you please let us know if these times change or if it stays the same?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Since the three-day outage last weekend (i.e., ten days ago), the new guide data has been available overnight (i.e., about 12 hours earlier than before). This morning, I forced a call at 3:00 AM (Central), and got new data through 5:30 PM on Tuesday, 8/30; before the outage, that data wouldn't have been available until mid-afternoon.

This has been the case every day since last Monday.


----------



## JoeKustra

JWhites said:


> So do you think when Rovi is used, we'll see 14 future day guide lineup, or will it still be 12 future days and two past days like we have now?


I'm looking forward only. Two weeks ago we added 24 hours to the guide. This was after two days with no updates. Since I count today as day 1, and my guide ends at 1pm or 2pm (EST or EDT), the last day is 13.5 days in the future (8/30). With zap2it the guide is 14 days even though you need to manually access the last day. Also, even with the recent change, the data from the last day of the guide does not get indexed, so a program on that last full day (like NFL Preseason) will display as "not available" when checking future episodes. A small bug they missed.

So call it 12, 12.5, 13 or 14 days, as long as it moves every day it's good enough for me. The updates haven't changed. They're still about 26 hours excluding and adjusting for no updates from 18:00 to 02:00 Eastern. An update with no change in data doesn't get indexed.

I haven't seen a Rovi guide in a while. I wonder how things will change.


----------



## JWhites

morac said:


> Switching providers isn't something that can be done on a split second decision. Remember Gracenote provides more than just guide data. They also provide all the thumbnail images. See Gracenote's TiVo page.
> 
> Also it makes little sense to wait until the old guide data license expires before signing a contract for a new one (especially if switching providers), so I expect a new contract has been in place for awhile now. As such it's likely the GraceNote license was renewed.


Page not found.


----------



## JWhites

JoeKustra said:


> I'm looking forward only. Two weeks ago we added 24 hours to the guide. This was after two days with no updates. Since I count today as day 1, and my guide ends at 1pm or 2pm (EST or EDT), the last day is 13.5 days in the future (8/30). With zap2it the guide is 14 days even though you need to manually access the last day. Also, even with the recent change, the data from the last day of the guide does not get indexed, so a program on that last full day (like NFL Preseason) will display as "not available" when checking future episodes. A small bug they missed.
> 
> So call it 12, 12.5, 13 or 14 days, as long as it moves every day it's good enough for me. The updates haven't changed. They're still about 26 hours excluding and adjusting for no updates from 18:00 to 02:00 Eastern. An update with no change in data doesn't get indexed.
> 
> I haven't seen a Rovi guide in a while. I wonder how things will change.


I'm on the east coast, and as of right now my last day of guide is 8/30 at 7:30pm eastern. 7:30pm is always the cut off for me. Tomorrow it'll be 8/31 at 7:30pm.


----------



## JoeKustra

JWhites said:


> I'm on the east coast, and as of right now my last day of guide is 8/30 at 7:30pm eastern. 7:30pm is always the cut off for me. Tomorrow it'll be 8/31 at 7:30pm.
> Since the guide data from Rovi


I have seen cutoff times vary forever, meaning the time is the same for a location. It might be a server issue, but that's just a guess. Mine has always been early afternoon. My last guide update was 03:15 and the one before that was 16:50 yesterday. A very normal day. Also, today the last football game is indexed.

Rovi was always 2am local, but that was years ago.


----------



## JWhites

JoeKustra said:


> I have seen cutoff times vary forever, meaning the time is the same for a location. It might be a server issue, but that's just a guess. Mine has always been early afternoon. My last guide update was 03:15 and the one before that was 16:50 yesterday. A very normal day. Also, today the last football game is indexed.
> 
> Rovi was always 2am local, but that was years ago.


I got bored and hopped on http://xfinitytv.comcast.net/tv-listings which uses Rovi's guide data and manually took the guide out until it ran out of data and found the current cutoff as of this post is September 5th at 7:30 pm eastern. After that everything is TBD.


----------



## JoeKustra

JWhites said:


> I got bored and hopped on http://xfinitytv.comcast.net/tv-listings which uses Rovi's guide data and manually took the guide out until it ran out of data and found the current cutoff as of this post is September 5th at 7:30 pm eastern. After that everything is TBD.


That's what I remember most about the Rovi guide. The date was always extended, but the listing data may be missing for days. The TiVo guide (for me) may show generic descriptions, but that's the exception (NBC does it a lot). I never see "To Be Announced" for the entire grid as I saw with Rovi. I don't know if they still use version numbers, but I had V7 (LG LST3410A), V8 (Sony DHG) and V10 (Sony EX700 TV). Sony TV's had an IP based rolling 48 hour guide that crashed more than it worked.

I will miss zap2it for a second opinion most of all.


----------



## innocentfreak

Where do we report guide data issues now? I used to report them through the zap2it site in addition to TiVo's site. Currently the TiVo report a lineup issue won't load for me so I wasn't sure where else to report errors.


----------



## mdavej

JWhites said:


> I got bored and hopped on http://xfinitytv.comcast.net/tv-listings which uses Rovi's guide data and manually took the guide out until it ran out of data and found the current cutoff as of this post is September 5th at 7:30 pm eastern. After that everything is TBD.


I see no evidence that Comcast uses Rovi data. I compared one listing from Rovi with the same one from Comcast, and they are completely different.

Dinosaur Train Shiny And Snakes; Tiny Loves Flowers

Rovi:
S2E5
Dad takes the kids to find Sana Sanajeh -- the ultimate snake; the family goes to the Big Pond to find buttercups.

Comcast:
S2E39
Shiny overcomes her fear of snakes after she meets a huge Cretaceous snake; Mom remembers the Big Pond's blooming buttercups after Tiny's favorite buttercups wilt.

Note that neither episode number is correct (the correct one is S2E4).


----------



## rainwater

innocentfreak said:


> Where do we report guide data issues now? I used to report them through the zap2it site in addition to TiVo's site. Currently the TiVo report a lineup issue won't load for me so I wasn't sure where else to report errors.


You will report them to TiVo as always.


----------



## Jed1

innocentfreak said:


> Where do we report guide data issues now? I used to report them through the zap2it site in addition to TiVo's site. Currently the TiVo report a lineup issue won't load for me so I wasn't sure where else to report errors.


The link to report line up issues is still working but I also had a hard time getting the page to load.
https://www.tivo.com/lineup.html
https://support.tivo.com/SupportPor...ting-TV-Scheduling-and-Channel-Issues-to-TiVo


----------



## JWhites

mdavej said:


> I see no evidence that Comcast uses Rovi data. I compared one listing from Rovi with the same one from Comcast, and they are completely different.
> 
> Dinosaur Train Shiny And Snakes; Tiny Loves Flowers
> 
> Rovi:
> S2E5
> Dad takes the kids to find Sana Sanajeh -- the ultimate snake; the family goes to the Big Pond to find buttercups.
> 
> Comcast:
> S2E39
> Shiny overcomes her fear of snakes after she meets a huge Cretaceous snake; Mom remembers the Big Pond's blooming buttercups after Tiny's favorite buttercups wilt.
> 
> Note that neither episode number is correct (the correct one is S2E4).


Everything I look up on Comcast's http://xfinitytv.comcast.net/tv-listings matches, verbatim, TVGuide.com. Plus I remember these forum threads from a Comcast employee saying it comes from Rovi. http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channels-and-Programming/Programming-discrepancy/m-p/2309737#M53550 http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channels-and-Programming/EPG-issues-for-2-15-15/m-p/2476590#M58086
http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channels-and-Programming/WTTW-in-Chicago-wrong-schedule/m-p/2475038
http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channels-and-Programming/channel-guide/m-p/2144472 There are a lot more of the same threads.


----------



## mdavej

JWhites said:


> Everything I look up on Comcast's http://xfinitytv.comcast.net/tv-listings matches, verbatim, TVGuide.com. Plus I remember this forum thread from a Comcast employee saying it comes from Rovi. http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channels-and-Programming/Programming-discrepancy/m-p/2309737#M53550


That post is 2 years old, so who know what provider Comcast uses now. I know TVGuide used to use Rovi, but there is no evidence that they still do. The example I posted proves that Rovi and Comcast data doesn't match, so how could both be Rovi?

EDIT: I checked Comcast, TVGuide.com and TV.com. Data on all 3 matches, but is different than Rovi data. That tells me none of those 3 use Rovi.

Here's another wrinkle. Rovi claims to serve both Charter and AT&T, yet those two don't match each other nor do either match Comcast/TVGuide/TV.

I don't know what to think now. Is it possible that Rovi generates different data for different customers? That seems like a huge amount of extra work.


----------



## JoeKustra

innocentfreak said:


> Where do we report guide data issues now? I used to report them through the zap2it site in addition to TiVo's site. Currently the TiVo report a lineup issue won't load for me so I wasn't sure where else to report errors.


Same problem. Maybe it will fix itself.


----------



## Jed1

For those who are wondering if you are getting Rovi data or TMS data all you have to do is go to account information and select copyrights and then page down about 5 times and you will see that the guide data is provided by Tribune Media Services.

Generally in the past TV Guide data will start broadcasting around 1:30 AM and will then rebroadcast around 9:00 AM, then around 1:30 PM, and then the last broadcast around 5:30 PM. This way if there was a program change the guide would get it at the end of the day.
This is the way that Rovi/Gemstars EPG (electronic program guides) TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen) would work. A unique thing that TVGOS guides had was a channel editor. You would get a master list of channels and you can turn them on and off and even change the channel number assignment right in the guide. I hope they maintain this idea. This way you can make changes to your line up right away while you wait until Rovi corrects the line up issue.

The MSO cable boxes will update their guides at 1:30 AM. These are called IPG (Interactive Program Guides) The cable operator has the master channel list so they can add or delete or change channel assignment numbers at will with out the need of contacting Rovi to change the database.
This is the main reason why Rovi/Gemstar line ups are outdated as the MSO really don't report lineup changes if they don't want to. In the past they would report changes so it would reflect in the old TV Guide magazine and when that happened this would also update the EPG guide lineups. Once the magazine fell out of favor in the previous decade the lineups would not be updated often enough or not at all.
Note: TVGOS was a EPG that was embedded in select TVs and recording devices since 1997. The Sony DHG had version 8 of TVGOS embedded in it.
My two Pioneer Kuros has version 9 embedded in it. Of course when the data stream was shutdown these guides no longer get data anymore so they are not of any use.

An important thing to remember the Rovi/Gemstar database dates all the way back to 1953 when the first TV Guide magazine was published. The Rovi/Gemstar database is more accurate and comprehensive than Tribunes is.
I used Rovi/Gemstar data with TVGOS from 1997 to March of 2013 when Rovi discontinued the TVGOS data that relied on data inserters that was in CBS/PBS broadcast streams. There was rarely any errors or corrupt or missing data.
The only issue I see is the line ups maybe outdated as Rovi has not really updated them since the shutdown of TVGOS. I just had my lineup updated but it took almost three months for them to do it. I suspect we will be able to update the lineups through TiVo so this may only take a week or two.

Also it is important to remember that Tribune has exited bankruptcy about two years ago and is now in the hands of its creditors. The bankruptcy was pretty long and a lot of things was left go and not updated. It is possible that the new contract for data might have been pretty costly to TiVo or even the possibility that Tribune might put the data service up for sale.
TMS has lost a lot of clients because of the bankruptcy so it is not unreasonable for TiVo to make the decision to seek a new provider.


----------



## JWhites

mdavej said:


> That post is 2 years old, so who know what provider Comcast uses now. I know TVGuide used to use Rovi, but there is no evidence that they still do. The example I posted proves that Rovi and Comcast data doesn't match, so how could both be Rovi?
> 
> EDIT: I checked Comcast, TVGuide.com and TV.com. Data on all 3 matches, but is different than Rovi data. That tells me none of those 3 use Rovi.
> 
> Here's another wrinkle. Rovi claims to serve both Charter and AT&T, yet those two don't match each other nor do either match Comcast/TVGuide/TV.
> 
> I don't know what to think now. Is it possible that Rovi generates different data for different customers? That seems like a huge amount of extra work.


Here are some from 2016 http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channe...ect-TV-Listings-on-TruTV-Fameless/m-p/2690713
http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channels-and-Programming/ERROR-IN-FILM-SCHEDULING/m-p/2750351

I took a look at that dinosaur train episode and the first description matches verbatim what's on my TiVo. The second description matches verbatim what Comcast and TV guide says.


----------



## Jed1

mdavej said:


> That post is 2 years old, so who know what provider Comcast uses now. I know TVGuide used to use Rovi, but there is no evidence that they still do. The example I posted proves that Rovi and Comcast data doesn't match, so how could both be Rovi?
> 
> EDIT: I checked Comcast, TVGuide.com and TV.com. Data on all 3 matches, but is different than Rovi data. That tells me none of those 3 use Rovi.
> 
> Here's another wrinkle. Rovi claims to serve both Charter and AT&T, yet those two don't match each other nor do either match Comcast/TVGuide/TV.
> 
> I don't know what to think now. Is it possible that Rovi generates different data for different customers? That seems like a huge amount of extra work.


Comcast previous contract with Rovi/Gemstar expired in 2014. Back in 2004 Gemstar was short on cash so they made a sweetheart deal with Comcast to offer guide data at a capped 10 cents per sub for 10 years. The only contingency was Comcast would have to pay 20 million in cash. Of course Comcast jumped on it because it was for a fixed number of subs. Of course Comcast increase its subscriber count and did not have to pay Rovi/Gemstar for the additional subs.

As far as I know Comcast does use Rovi guide data and also the older Rovi/Gemstar IPG's the IGuide and Passport Echo Guides. Of course the sweetheart deal has ended and had to be renegotiated. 
Comcast has developed their own guide for the X1 but it looks a lot like Rovi/Gemstars Total Guide. I do believe there is a lawsuit about this that Rovi has filed as Comcast is violating its patents.


----------



## JWhites

Correct. Rovi is currently suing Comcast for unlicensed use of their patents. http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160401005204/en/Rovi-Sues-Comcast-Patent-Infringement


----------



## TonyD79

harpervision said:


> i believe i read that their revamped ui will possibly do away with a program guide as we know it and use tiles and channel names instead, similar to the streaming services like slingtv and vue.


noooooo!!!!


----------



## Jed1

JWhites said:


> Correct. Rovi is currently suing Comcast for unlicensed use of their patents. http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160401005204/en/Rovi-Sues-Comcast-Patent-Infringement


Oh yea I forgot about the search feature. Gemstar came up with the idea of not just searching the guide data but also including data from streaming and online services. They were working on this back in 2010 and called it 6 degrees of search. 
If you realize that it was at this time TiVo was just starting to roll out their HD guide which is still not finished. We will end up with a much better search feature on our TiVo's once the change over happens.
Since the end of TVGOS in 2013 this is when I bought a TiVo but the TiVo guide and its data has always been lacking to me. The Gemstar guides and features is far better than what TiVo offers. I had HD guides with TVGOS going all the way back to 2004 when I got my first RCA DLP TV. The 2005 Sony DHG had the same guide as my RCA did.


----------



## JWhites

Jed1, personally for me, in regards to your post about the possibility of the data service being put up for sale, I think it'd be a great idea if Rovi bought Gracenote's data service so they can combine their databases and they can fill in where the other is lacking. Then again, I'm sure FTC would never let it go through because of concerns for a monopoly and "lack of competition" or something.


----------



## JWhites

Jed1, with me, the most important thing I want is rich, full, program descriptions and accurate channel lineups. I'd like to see at least 5 lines of program data. I don't want to see one line descriptions that don't really tell me what the episode is about. What it'd also like to see changed is no more of the (Stereo) moniker in the program info when the channel is an HD program that always broadcast 5.1 audio like the premium channels. That's something that really bugs me. What also bugs me is truncated program info with the ellipsis. There is plenty of room for more lines of text in that grey info section.


----------



## JoeKustra

JWhites said:


> Jed1, personally for me, in regards to your post about the possibility of the data service being put up for sale, I think it'd be a great idea if Rovi bought Gracenote's data service so they can combine their databases and they can fill in where the other is lacking. Then again, I'm sure FTC would never let it go through because of concerns for a monopoly and "lack of competition" or something.


Besides the monopoly, that would put "TiVo" in the position to supply all the Gracenote customers. But then again, maybe there will be fewer layoffs that way.


----------



## Jed1

JWhites said:


> Jed1, with me, the most important thing I want is rich, full, program descriptions and accurate channel lineups. I'd like to see at least 5 lines of program data. I don't want to see one line descriptions that don't really tell me what the episode is about. What it'd also like to see changed is no more of the (Stereo) moniker in the program info when the channel is an HD program that always broadcast 5.1 audio like the premium channels. That's something that really bugs me. What also bugs me is truncated program info with the ellipsis. There is plenty of room for more lines of text in that grey info section.


All the things you describe was available with the TVGOS guides. If you wanted to see more information you would hit the info button again and it would give you a larger info box with all the data. Everything you mention was there like what sound format, HD tags, etc.
The version 9 on my Kuros was developed in 2007 so that is almost 10 years ago. The version 8 guides had these features to and that was developed in 2004 which is 12 years ago.
The problem is TiVo and Tribune are has been guides and data. If they want to implement these ideas they will have to come up with something that does not violate Gemstar patents or pay royalties to Gemstar to use their ideas. All the weaknesses that are currently plaguing TiVo's is their own fault because it is their design. With Rovi on board it will be Gemstar programmers doing the guide layout and providing the data. TiVo will no longer have to worry about patent violations either.
Also Gemstar has had logos going back into 1997 when they first introduced the first EPG guide embedded in consumer TVs.


----------



## Jed1

Here are two pictures from my Rovi/Gemstar guide embedded on my Kuro. This is a version 9 guide that was developed in 2007. Unfortunately I took these pictures after the data was shutdown in March of 2013. The one is of the grid with my channel lineup and the other is of the channel editor.
The two boxes under the live TV window was for ads that was insterted in the data stream. The ads were mostly for shows that was broadcasting on TV and some others for things like Bose audio products.


----------



## mdavej

JWhites said:


> Here are some from 2016 http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channe...ect-TV-Listings-on-TruTV-Fameless/m-p/2690713
> http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channels-and-Programming/ERROR-IN-FILM-SCHEDULING/m-p/2750351
> 
> I took a look at that dinosaur train episode and the first description matches verbatim what's on my TiVo. The second description matches verbatim what Comcast and TV guide says.


This is blowing my mind. Rovi says they supply Charter, whose online guide I got the data from. But when I compare it to Zap2It, it matches exactly, which also matches Tivo. So Charter's online guide is actually getting Gracenote data like Tivo, not Rovi.

Long story short, you are apparently correct. My apologies.

So we can indeed use TVGuide.com to see Rovi data. But I do wish a WMC user would chime in and verify that TVGuide.com matches the WMC guide.


----------



## DevdogAZ

JWhites said:


> Jed1, personally for me, in regards to your post about the possibility of the data service being put up for sale, I think it'd be a great idea if Rovi bought Gracenote's data service so they can combine their databases and they can fill in where the other is lacking. Then again, I'm sure FTC would never let it go through because of concerns for a monopoly and "lack of competition" or something.


Why would Rovi/TiVo want to do that? As far as they are concerned, they already have a better product than Gracenote, so they should be able to beat Gracenote just by competing.


----------



## Jed1

mdavej said:


> This is blowing my mind. Rovi says they supply Charter, whose online guide I got the data from. But when I compare it to Zap2It, it matches exactly, which also matches Tivo. So Charter's online guide is actually getting Gracenote data like Tivo, not Rovi.
> 
> Long story short, you are apparently correct. My apologies.
> 
> So we can indeed use TVGuide.com to see Rovi data. But I do wish a WMC user would chime in and verify that TVGuide.com matches the WMC guide.


 The confusion here is it does not say Rovi supplies Charter with Metadata but with the guides themselves.
http://www.rovicorp.com/customers/charter.html
Now Rovi supplies EchoStar with metadata.
http://www.rovicorp.com/customers/echostar.html

Rovi does a lot more than just metadata. They supply guide software, IP software for DVRs, Video platforms for websites, etc. Just because a company is listed does not mean metadata. Now my cable system gets guide software, IP software for DVRs, and metadata. But Service Electric is not listed there as they are a small operator.


----------



## tivoyahoo

mdavej said:


> So we can indeed use TVGuide.com to see Rovi data.


Not sure if this is the right spot to post, but goes to the issue of different channel guide data. NBC ota is broadcast from 2 towers in the San Francisco Bay Area, however when I look at: http://www.tvguide.com/listings/ one of the channels (11.3) is missing - see first attachment. one can enter zip code 94111 to see the listings.

NBC 11 serves San Francisco / Oakland / San Jose. 11.1 & 11.2 (transmitter/frequency 12) are on Mt. San Bruno (near SF) and 11.3 (transmitter / frequency 49) is on Mt. Allison (near san jose). 11.3 KNTV-HD duplicates 11.1 KNTVDT as far as the programming. so it's the same network, and the main nbc programming feed, it's just there is a second tower more to the south broadcasting the same station's primary feed with both 11.1 and 11.3 in HD.

from:
http://www.choisser.com/channels.html
11.1	12.3	KNTV	NBC	San Jose	Mt. San Bruno - nbcbayarea.com
11.2	12.4 Cozi-TV Mt. San Bruno 
11.3	49.5 KNTV-NBC Mt. Allison

in that same list in the prior link, if you look at 2.1 the fox affiliate, you can likewise see that it's on 2 towers using 2 different frequencies, but 2.1 is the primary channel on both for the primary feed. Same for 7.1 (abc). so nbc is a little different, replicating the primary feed on subchannel 3. So if you're receiving nbc from 11.3, how does one get the guide data? *is there a way to submit omissions to Rovi? and get that in the pipeline now as in sooner vs. later for tivo? * and in the case of 2.1 being duplicated, how do you know that both will be in the guide data? tivo duplicates them in the channel list with different call letters and you can check the box to select in channel list.

However on zap2it guide, 11.3 is there (see 2nd attachment) and the program info is correct:
http://tvschedule.zap2it.com/tvlistings/

although it shows call letters of KSTS not KNTV but both are NBC Universal properties - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSTS
and it doesn't really matter since the programming info is correct and that's what shown by tivo currently. But with a Rovi changeover it appears the program guide for the channel gets lost entirely. And tuning to 11.1 which is a vhf has spotty reception. So is the workaround just to set manual recordings for the channel?

I suppose someone on WMC must have already run into this situation. And I'm wondering if replicated channels 2 (fox) and 7 (abc) suffer a similar issue. And am wondering how to nip this in the bud.

for comparison, I looked at Titan TV and it has the channel, network, and programming all correct - attachment 3.


----------



## JWhites

Jed1 said:


> The confusion here is it does not say Rovi supplies Charter with Metadata but with the guides themselves.
> http://www.rovicorp.com/customers/charter.html
> Now Rovi supplies EchoStar with metadata.
> http://www.rovicorp.com/customers/echostar.html
> 
> Rovi does a lot more than just metadata. They supply guide software, IP software for DVRs, Video platforms for websites, etc. Just because a company is listed does not mean metadata. Now my cable system gets guide software, IP software for DVRs, and metadata. But Service Electric is not listed there as they are a small operator.


I would think if they're supplying the guide to Charter, the metadata _for_ the guide would be included. It's not like they're gonna supply the guide to Charter with someone else's metadata...or would they?


----------



## JWhites

DevdogAZ said:


> Why would Rovi/TiVo want to do that? As far as they are concerned, they already have a better product than Gracenote, so they should be able to beat Gracenote just by competing.


Assurances? Piece of mind? Just because you think you have the best product doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement _somewhere_. Proactiveness looks good to investors and customers that you're always striving to be better then yourself. Complacency can be a fatal mistake in a business.


----------



## mdavej

tivoyahoo said:


> And am wondering how to nip this in the bud.


WMC users have been sending their issue reports to [email protected] . I wouldn't mention Tivo, just WMC.


----------



## JWhites

Jed1 said:


> Here are two pictures from my Rovi/Gemstar guide embedded on my Kuro. This is a version 9 guide that was developed in 2007. Unfortunately I took these pictures after the data was shutdown in March of 2013. The one is of the grid with my channel lineup and the other is of the channel editor.
> The two boxes under the live TV window was for ads that was insterted in the data stream. The ads were mostly for shows that was broadcasting on TV and some others for things like Bose audio products.


Spotted this and thought you'd be interested, bring back fond memories. 
]


----------



## mdavej

Gracenote lost their other contracts (with Microsoft, for example) for a reason. It could be that Rovi was simply the low bidder. Rovi provides a lot less data, so it stands to reason their service would cost a lot less.


----------



## JoeKustra

JWhites said:


> Spotted this and thought you'd be interested, bring back fond memories.


That was the trigger for me to buy my first TiVo. The Sony DHG is still being used, and the thread on AVSForum is approaching 30k posts. The good old days. 

On one day in 2009 that thread had over 300 posts. Hard to believe.


----------



## ajwees41

JWhites said:


> I would think if they're supplying the guide to Charter, the metadata _for_ the guide would be included. It's not like they're gonna supply the guide to Charter with someone else's metadata...or would they?


cox used to use aptiv guides before rovi bought aptiv which in turn gemstar bought all while cox had tribune media service provide guide date, so no ipg's and guide data do not need to come from the same provider.


----------



## JWhites

ajwees41 said:


> cox used to use aptiv guides before rovi bought aptiv which in turn gemstar bought all while cox had tribune media service provide guide date, so no ipg's and guide data do not need to come from the same provider.


heh, ok. Good to know.


----------



## JWhites

My thoughts are there will have to be a software upgrade pushed out, for if nothing else, to change the copyright info from Gracenote to Rovi, if TiVo _is_ switching guide data providers, and/or to reflect the Q3 merger.


----------



## CoxInPHX

I noticed tonight (via Remote kmttg) that my mother's Premiere has already received 20.6.1a.RC10, but she still has Gracenote data.

She is with Cox in AZ also.


----------



## CoxInPHX

mdavej said:


> WMC users have been sending their issue reports to [email protected] . I wouldn't mention Tivo, just WMC.


Does Rovi respond back when using that email address?

TVGuide.com has this email address on their help page to report Issues
http://www.tvguide.com/help/products/website/topics/564955/articles/1289154/


----------



## mdavej

I don't know. Found it in the WMC forums. I figure they wouldn't have posted if it didn't work.


----------



## CoxInPHX

I received a response back within one hour this morning.

They asked if I was reporting as an official Cox employee or as a customer, so perhaps that email is for official provider input only. I responded as a customer, I will let you know how they respond.


----------



## HarperVision

CoxInPHX said:


> I noticed tonight (via Remote kmttg) that my mother's Premiere has already received 20.6.1a.RC10, but she still has Gracenote data. She is with Cox in AZ also.


Ira Bahr from TiVo answered that question today. It's a two stage process where first this new SW had to be released, then next week the new data will start to be downloaded.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=542670


----------



## ajwees41

HarperVision said:


> Ira Bahr from TiVo answered that question today. It's a two stage process where first this new SW had to be released, then next week the new data will start to be downloaded.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=542670


url doesn't work


----------



## Alan Gordon

JWhites said:


> Oh man you got a MeTV logo? That's pretty awesome. Over here we have that channel but no logo.


Since the time I posted that, I've gotten TiVo to correct/add some logos:

    

There is a few I'm still waiting on them to correct, and I'm still waiting on TiVo to correct an issue with a channel's PSIP data.

If TV Guide online is correct, I'll be losing guide data for MOST of these channels once I'm switched over to Rovi guide data.


----------



## tivoyahoo

HarperVision said:


> Ira Bahr from TiVo answered that question today. It's a two stage process where first this new SW had to be released, then next week the new data will start to be downloaded.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=542670


malformed link - that's what happens when you copy and paste the shortened link with the .... in the middle instead of the full url. but with t=542670 on the end, I think Harper meant:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542670

which is thread - "20 Questions with Ira Bahr - TiVo's Chief Marketing Officer"


----------



## lpwcomp

As a lot of us feared, the switch to Rovi data is going to be far from seamless.


----------



## tivoyahoo

mdavej said:


> WMC users have been sending their issue reports to [email protected] . I wouldn't mention Tivo, just WMC.


thanks :up: emailed rovi with missing channel info from post #677 minus any tivo reference.


CoxInPHX said:


> I received a response back within one hour this morning.
> 
> They asked if I was reporting as an official Cox employee or as a customer, so perhaps that email is for official provider input only. I responded as a customer, I will let you know how they respond.


quick response. was it more than just an auto-reply? did you receive a reply from:
[email protected]
or
[email protected]teractive.com
which you linked to in a prior post. thanks for that link info :up:

I emailed both and cc'd the station owner. we'll see what happens. based on today's Q&A it looks like we are close to receiving rovi data on Tivo.

update: before I can even submit this post, I get this back from rovi with a case number assigned:



> Your email has been forwarded to the appropriate work group. All requests will be handled within 5 business days unless you are notified otherwise.
> 
> Great News! You may View Product Documentation, Create New Cases and Check the Status of your existing cases via Rovi Resources. Simply log into https://resources.rovicorp.com. If you are a first time user, please click the Register button to sign up for access.
> 
> If you have an urgent issue that requires immediate attention please call the Customer Care line at 1-800-725-1233.


so I forwarded the reply with case number onto the station letting them know they would lose viewers without the channel in the channel list and hopefully station can chase the issue down as well with Rovi.



Alan Gordon said:


> Since the time I posted that, I've gotten TiVo to correct/add some logos....
> 
> There is a few I'm still waiting on them to correct, and I'm still waiting on TiVo to correct an issue with a channel's PSIP data.
> 
> If TV Guide online is correct, I'll be losing guide data for MOST of these channels once I'm switched over to Rovi guide data.


yeah, I'm in the same boat on missing channels with the switch. figure I should be giving a heads up to any and all involved including tivo as well. Alan, who are you contacting at Tivo regarding rovi channel guide issues? is there a support page or email address? or how are you going about getting fixes? maybe I need to go back in this thread if you've posted the way to go about it. thanks. good to see you are getting some results :up:


----------



## Alan Gordon

tivoyahoo said:


> Alan, who are you contacting at Tivo regarding rovi channel guide issues? is there a support page or email address? or how are you going about getting fixes? maybe I need to go back in this thread if you've posted the way to go about it. thanks. good to see you are getting some results :up:


I haven't contacted anybody about the Rovi guide data yet. I'll wait and see what happens next week and then attempt to contact TiVo.

I contacted TiVo about the logos, and I've been waiting for MONTHS and MONTHS to get a local channel's information changed. Hopefully they'll be faster after the transition at getting things fixed...


----------



## mdavej

@tivoyahoo

It's weird that Rovi sent you that link. It appears to be for service providers, not the general public. I signed up anyway. They appear to have no official support mechanism for actual end users.


----------



## Space

Rovi doesn't have any real way for end-users to contact them for changes.

All known ways of contacting them are supposed to be for their direct customers only (TiVo, Microsoft, etc.), but they seem to still respond to end-user requests when sent to them.

I doubt they currently have the infrastructure in place to handle thousands of requests, so if too many people start using it, they will probably stop accepting requests from end users.

Hopefully TiVo will come up with their own way of reporting issues, although I don't know where that would leave WMC users, since Microsoft is pretty much useless in this regard.


----------



## rainwater

Space said:


> Hopefully TiVo will come up with their own way of reporting issues


TiVo already has a way to do that. Granted, until the switch happens, it probably will not be useful. With Gracenote, using TiVo's form always got a much quicker response than direct contact. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true when the switch to Rovi data is complete.


----------



## CoxInPHX

mdavej said:


> WMC users have been sending their issue reports to [email protected] . I wouldn't mention Tivo, just WMC.





CoxInPHX said:


> I received a response back within one hour this morning. [from Rovi]
> 
> They asked if I was reporting as an official Cox employee or as a customer, so perhaps that email is for official provider input only. I responded as a customer, I will let you know how they respond.





tivoyahoo said:


> quick response. was it more than just an auto-reply? did you receive a reply from:
> [email protected]


Rovi ([email protected]) responded back, to my "customer" reply, and told me they could not assist me as an end user, "Contact my cable provider".


----------



## lpwcomp

rainwater said:


> TiVo already has a way to do that. Granted, until the switch happens, it probably will not be useful. With Gracenote, using TiVo's form always got a much quicker response than direct contact. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true when the switch to Rovi data is complete.


I've had the exact opposite experience. Reporting problems to TMS/Gracenote via Zap2it has always resulted in a more timely fix.


----------



## Space

CoxInPHX said:


> Rovi ([email protected]) responded back, to my "customer" reply, and told me they could not assist me as an end user, "Contact my cable provider".


As I had feared, too many TiVo customers making requests I suppose...

Other avenues may be to request changes through tvguide.com, as they are customers of Rovi.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Alan Gordon said:


> Since the time I posted that, I've gotten TiVo to correct/add some logos:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a few I'm still waiting on them to correct, and I'm still waiting on TiVo to correct an issue with a channel's PSIP data.
> 
> If TV Guide online is correct, I'll be losing guide data for MOST of these channels once I'm switched over to Rovi guide data.


I've been waiting for a logo for the Big Ten Network HD in PA for 8 years now....


----------



## JWhites

UCLABB said:


> This is kinda funny. TivoSarah watching this thread on Gracenotes and chimes in on how to fix thumbnails, but not a peep about the Gracenotes contract. The TiVo staff must get quite a laugh on us floundering around on this issue speculating on what's going to happen.


Of course. It's one of the job perks.


----------



## HarperVision

ajwees41 said:


> url doesn't work





tivoyahoo said:


> malformed link - that's what happens when you copy and paste the shortened link with the .... in the middle instead of the full url. but with t=542670 on the end, I think Harper meant: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542670 which is thread - "20 Questions with Ira Bahr - TiVo's Chief Marketing Officer"


Yep, thanks!



rainwater said:


> TiVo already has a way to do that. Granted, until the switch happens, it probably will not be useful. With Gracenote, using TiVo's form always got a much quicker response than direct contact. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true when the switch to Rovi data is complete.





lpwcomp said:


> I've had the exact opposite experience. Reporting problems to TMS/Gracenote via Zap2it has always resulted in a more timely fix.


Same here, going straight to Zap2it was much faster than through TiVo. In fact, I sent the form to TiVo, didn't hear anything back for weeks, then sent directly to Zap2it and it was fixed in a couple days, before TiVo even responded!


----------



## JWhites

JoeKustra said:


> It is sad. Also, the idea of this will be fixed by a repeat of a guided setup is the height of guessing. I have no missing thumbnails at all, but do have the wrong ones as noted.
> 
> I don't fault her for not commenting on the merger. It's normal for the workers to not know what's going on in any company. But a nice positive message would be welcome. That would be at Margret's pay level.


Did you try sending her some tweets or emails?


----------



## rainwater

HarperVision said:


> Yep, thanks!
> 
> Same here, going straight to Zap2it was much faster than through TiVo. In fact, I sent the form to TiVo, didn't hear anything back for weeks, then sent directly to Zap2it and it was fixed in a couple days, before TiVo even responded!


I've always received a response within 24-48 hours from TiVo. And usually less than 4-5 days before the guide is fixed. Of course the issue could be the provider. I know OTA guide issues are much more complex since verification is difficult. For me, cable issues were always fixed really quickly when going through TiVo.


----------



## Alan Gordon

rainwater said:


> TiVo already has a way to do that. Granted, until the switch happens, it probably will not be useful. With Gracenote, using TiVo's form always got a much quicker response than direct contact. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true when the switch to Rovi data is complete.





lpwcomp said:


> I've had the exact opposite experience. Reporting problems to TMS/Gracenote via Zap2it has always resulted in a more timely fix.





HarperVision said:


> Same here, going straight to Zap2it was much faster than through TiVo. In fact, I sent the form to TiVo, didn't hear anything back for weeks, then sent directly to Zap2it and it was fixed in a couple days, before TiVo even responded!





rainwater said:


> I've always received a response within 24-48 hours from TiVo. And usually less than 4-5 days before the guide is fixed. Of course the issue could be the provider. I know OTA guide issues are much more complex since verification is difficult. For me, cable issues were always fixed really quickly when going through TiVo.


Over the years, I've contacted TiVo many times, and I've tried Tribune (now Gracenote) via Zap2it.com. My experiences have been mixed...

When I first got a Series 3 TiVo for use with OTA, getting program guide data straightened out via the TiVo website was simple. Submit an error, and within a week, the problem was solved. My one complaint was that it was a pain in the butt trying to get them to correct issues with logos. A guide data change was easy though...

Some years later, the hard drive in my Series 3 went bad, and as DirecTV now offered local channels in my area, I didn't bother to replace it. So, whenever an OTA guide data change occurred, and I wanted it straightened out for the AM21 OTA tuner with DirecTV, I would fill out the lineup form on Zap2it.com. The first several times I tried it, nothing got fixed, so I gave up on it. A year later, I would try it again, and this time, it would work, and it was fast. I would use this several times.

Over the years, I've also spoken via e-mail and twice via phone with a local station. A couple well meaning folks aside, this was mostly a complete waste of time, as most people I spoke with had NO idea what I was talking about, nor did they seem to care.

Eventually, I replaced the hard drive in my Series 3 and would get two Roamios. This allowed me to use TiVo's lineup form again.

Whenever Zap2it.com redesigned their site, they got rid of their submit channel lineup error page, and I've tried using their e-mail, but with no luck of getting anything fixed.

TiVo's channel lineup specialists are now correcting channel logos (YAY!), which doesn't HAVE to be a quick fix, but fixing programming guide errors should be a top priority, and it takes forever to get a fix. I have been waiting months on one channel to be corrected.


----------



## JoeKustra

One of my Roamio boxes has received its daily update. All third part logos are gone. Most thumbnails are generic, especially on the Discovery bar. My other box gets its daily feeding in 10 minutes. I felt 9/1 would be special.

Both received the update yesterday morning.


----------



## morac

In the 20.6.1a software, the copyrights and trademarks screen mentions that "portions of the DVD cover art are copyright Gracenote or its providers", so it appears as if TiVo is still using Gracenote covert art. 

Then again that screen also says program guide data is provided by Tribune Media Services, which I'm pretty sure is wrong, so it's likely TiVo just forgot to update the screen.


----------



## JoeKustra

morac said:


> In the 20.6.1a software, the copyrights and trademarks screen mentions that "portions of the DVD cover art are copyright Gracenote or its providers", so it appears as if TiVo is still using Gracenote covert art.
> 
> Then again that screen also says program guide data is provided by Tribune Media Services, which I'm pretty sure is wrong, so it's likely TiVo just forgot to update the screen.


I checked again. The box was in standby for 10 minutes. All icons and artwork have returned. Cosmic rays?


----------



## TonyD79

JoeKustra said:


> I checked again. The box was in standby for 10 minutes. All icons and artwork have returned. Cosmic rays?


I pretty much knew it wasn't the rovi switchover since both my minis updated and they had full graphics.


----------



## DevdogAZ

Ira Bahr said the Rovi data won't start going out until next week. I don't know why people are constantly checking as if it might already be happening.


----------



## morac

I'd make a note of your current OnePasses in case they disappear.


----------



## gonzotek

morac said:


> I'd make a note of your current OnePasses in case they disappear.


Not a bad idea. I just downloaded a copy via kmttg.


----------



## UCLABB

morac said:


> I'd make a note of your current OnePasses in case they disappear.


You don't think they've tested this?


----------



## davezatz

UCLABB said:


> You don't think they've tested this?


They have. And it'll still be messy.


----------



## rainwater

morac said:


> In the 20.6.1a software, the copyrights and trademarks screen mentions that "portions of the DVD cover art are copyright Gracenote or its providers", so it appears as if TiVo is still using Gracenote covert art.
> 
> Then again that screen also says program guide data is provided by Tribune Media Services, which I'm pretty sure is wrong, so it's likely TiVo just forgot to update the screen.


I doubt any of the Tribune references will disappear until the new guide data is loaded next week.


----------



## JWhites

Ok. I apologize if this is already old news, but I just got off the phone with Tivo, and the rep told me that around September 19th is when the guide data is changing over from Gracenote to Rovi. He says that a software update is needed for the transition, that the new guide experience is more streamlined, the software update will be rolled out in stages and will be completed by the 19th (of September), and that we can sign up on the priority page to get an early place in line. He could not comment on the questionable Rovi guide quality some posts have mentioned as he said he was not allowed to. Strange that the QA says differently.


----------



## JWhites

tivoyahoo said:


> malformed link - that's what happens when you copy and paste the shortened link with the .... in the middle instead of the full url. but with t=542670 on the end, I think Harper meant:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542670
> 
> which is thread - "20 Questions with Ira Bahr - TiVo's Chief Marketing Officer"


Two things I wanted asked that weren't was, "who can we hold responsible if TiVo does not keep their word on what was said?" and, where do we report these anomalies if experienced? Also, where is the love for Premiere users? We'd like these nice UI tweaks as well. Anyway I left my concerns on that thread, though it'll never be directly addressed by anyone. Maybe I should keep looking into the X1...


----------



## lpwcomp

JWhites said:


> Ok. I apologize if this is already old news, but I just got off the phone with Tivo, and the rep told me that around September 19th is when the guide data is changing over from Gracenote to Rovi. He says that a software update is needed for the transition, that the new guide experience is more streamlined, the software update will be rolled out in stages and will be completed by the 19th (of September), and that we can sign up on the priority page to get an early place in line. He could not comment on the questionable Rovi guide quality some posts have mentioned as he said he was not allowed to. Strange that the QA says differently.


Have you not seen this?



Ira Bahr said:


> There is a two-step process. Just this week, we updated the software on the S2-S6 boxes for the new data feeds. Starting next week we will be transitioning these boxes to the new data. During that download which will occur in the early AM hours and take two to three hours, the box will not be fully functional. After that, the DVR will function normally. We've done a ton of testing but we're counting on you guys to post any anomalies you might observe. Right now, we think the most obvious defect will be generic poster art on certain assets.


----------



## tivoyahoo

Space said:


> Rovi doesn't have any real way for end-users to contact them for changes.
> 
> All known ways of contacting them are supposed to be for their direct customers only (TiVo, Microsoft, etc.), but they seem to still respond to end-user requests when sent to them.
> 
> I doubt they currently have the infrastructure in place to handle thousands of requests, so if too many people start using it, they will probably stop accepting requests from end users.


I submitted 2 emails to Rovi, and got case numbers assigned on each. One email was cc'd to the nbc station that was missing a channel. The other email was cc'd to the fox affiliate engineering operations manager listed in the station FCC filing.

and who are rovi's other customers besides Tivo and microsoft because both those avenues are sort of in limbo right now. In other words, who else might Rovi listen to? I did contact tvguide - see below.



Alan Gordon said:


> Over the years, I've also spoken via e-mail and twice via phone with a local station. A couple well meaning folks aside, this was mostly a complete waste of time, as most people I spoke with had NO idea what I was talking about, nor did they seem to care.


So I did hear back from one of the stations head engineer that they had done 2 checks that afternoon based on my email. but their checks involved using their tuners and it was working. So i think, like you said, he was confused about what I was reporting. And may have thought I meant the TSID or PSIP information since the latter carries the program channels / virtual subchannel info. don't some broadcasters also send program information in the ota signal?? not sure how that works, someone on this board I'm sure does, but maybe that's what he thought I meant intially. Or maybe he did kind of understand and checked the things in his department and they were working, because he forwarded it on to their technical services department. So I replied back explaining that it was guide data coming via the internet and that they could see for themselves just by looking at tvguide.com. so I haven't heard back from the technical services department of that station but hopefully they have enough standing to get somewhere with Rovi if they pursue it directly with them. the other station i've heard nothing back from.

Update: as I'm writing this post, I get a follow up today from the station that has been responsive

"We confirmed the program guide is working and correct on the output of both the tower and the translator. Its unclear why ROVI/TIVO is not passing the program guide."

So apparently they do send the program guide along with their signal. The issue is that Rovi doesn't provide the guide data for channels coming off that translator. So a tivo user who is tuning to those channels just gets TO BE ANNOUNCED across the board - can't set recordings other than manually and with no metadata. The ABC affiliate does the same thing in the area - second tower / translator, but there is rovi guide data for the abc translator channels. so rovi is getting it right in that case and just needs to mirror the guide data on both sets of fox channels like they are doing on ABC.

and there are 3 people from the station involved in the emails now, the engineer got 2 others from technical services involved. so I'm wondering if rovi will listen to the station if they simply email rovi and say to rovi "you're not passing the guide data on our translator channels". clearly the station doesn't want to lose viewership. are tivo users really going to bother setting manual recordings minus guide data? some will. some won't.



CoxInPHX said:


> Rovi ([email protected]) responded back, to my "customer" reply, and told me they could not assist me as an end user, "Contact my cable provider".


I think that's what Rovi ended up doing for one of my case submissions as well - see text of response below.



Space said:


> Hopefully TiVo will come up with their own way of reporting issues, although I don't know where that would leave WMC users, since Microsoft is pretty much useless in this regard.


well it looks that's exactly where Rovi pointed me on one of my cases with this second reply...



> Have you also contacted Window Media Center support? If not, you may wish to as they can investigate internally.
> 
> Please open a ticket with Microsoft in the Connect site (https://connect.microsoft.com/site1145/Feedback). Microsoft will work directly with Rovi on any further issues you might be having.
> 
> Thank you,
> Rovi Client Services


so you need a login to access that link. and it sounds like Microsoft is a useless dead end since they have essentially abandoned WMC it sounds like. So I haven't pursued that. instead turning to TCF for feedback on how to best pursue this.



mdavej said:


> It's weird that Rovi sent you that link. It appears to be for service providers, not the general public. I signed up anyway. They appear to have no official support mechanism for actual end users.


what did signing up with the rovi website involve? I didn't bother signing up. although the initial email did say: "Check the Status of your existing cases via Rovi Resources" It looks like they have referred one of my cases back I am guessing (and perhaps both) and aren't pursuing it (probably closed one ticket) based on their reply. but I suppose logging in might tell me more.



Space said:


> Other avenues may be to request changes through tvguide.com, as they are customers of Rovi.


I'd also sent on thursday essentially the same email to TV Guide as Rovi addressed to [email protected] I haven't gotten anything back from TV Guide at this point, not even an auto reply.


----------



## morac

gonzotek said:


> Not a bad idea. I just downloaded a copy via kmttg.


I wonder if kmttg would even be able to restore OnePasses that were saved prior to the switch over? Unless you are just using it to have a reference.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

DevdogAZ said:


> Ira Bahr said the Rovi data won't start going out until next week. I don't know why people are constantly checking as if it might already be happening.


I had a few movies that didn't have any graphics at all for months and as of this morning they do. So something happened.


----------



## rainwater

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I had a few movies that didn't have any graphics at all for months and as of this morning they do. So something happened.


Cover art is always changing. Ira warned that a lot of the cover art will be missing after the transition (maybe all?).


----------



## schatham

IMO I could care less about cover art. I want a good show description with the year a movie was made. If a tv series I want the season, episode number, year and a good show description.


----------



## TonyD79

schatham said:


> IMO I could care less about cover art. I want a good show description with the year a movie was made. If a tv series I want the season, episode number, year and a good show description.


Agreed.


----------



## matk123

schatham said:


> IMO I could care less about cover art. I want a good show description with the year a movie was made. If a tv series I want the season, episode number, year and a good show description.


And "New" vs "Repeat" markings!


----------



## JoeKustra

I'm waiting to see if/how the "rules" get changed. Will "Motive" now be new? Will other Canadian shows be adjusted? This will be interesting.


----------



## gonzotek

morac said:


> I wonder if kmttg would even be able to restore OnePasses that were saved prior to the switch over? Unless you are just using it to have a reference.


Me too  But yeah, even if it doesn't work, I can at least refer to what I had before and manually recreate if needed. I prune it down to what I'm actually watching a couple times a year so it's not too big a deal for me if it goes that way.


----------



## mrizzo80

I think good cover art is needed for a polished look.

One thing I've never understood is why the cover art changes on *old* shows - like _LOST_ and _Star Trek:TNG_. I'm sure TiVo is giving us whatever Gracenote sends them, but why are Gracenote's cover art assets changing as often as they do? Maybe the content owners refresh the cover art from time to time for VOD purchases and therefore Gracenote updates their cache accordingly? (Obviously this isn't a big deal, I'm just curious.)

I just noticed cover art on a show that has never had it before: _Catastrophe _from Amazon. I've had a OP for this show for over a year - today is the first I've seen non-generic artwork for it.


----------



## astrohip

JWhites said:


> Two things I wanted asked that weren't was, "who can we hold responsible if TiVo does not keep their word on what was said?"<snip>
> Maybe I should keep looking into the X1...


What kind of question is that? Like there's someone at Verizon or Google you can "hold responsible" for their shortcomings?

And yes, if I was you, I would jump to the X1 right now, today, pronto, ASAP. That way you can hold Comcast responsible. I'm sure they have a name to give you.


----------



## tivoyahoo

So per my prior post (#723) I figured Rovi had dismissed my email and case (as being from an end user not a customer report, i.e. coming from MS, Tivo, TVGuide, etc.) and closed the case/ticket by bouncing me to Microsoft (see lower email) to report the issue. but then I get another email today from Rovi on that same case...


> Hello -
> Our internal investigation has resulted in the addition of that channel. As the data is updated with our partners you should see the change on your guide.
> 
> Thank you,
> Rovi Client Services
> 
> --------------- Original Message ---------------
> From: Rovi IPG Customer Support [[email protected]]
> Subject: RE: Missing Rovi Guide Channel: 11.3 NBC OTA SF-Oakland-SanJose
> 
> Hello -
> Have you also contacted Window Media Center support? If not, you may wish to as they can investigate internally.
> 
> Please open a ticket with Microsoft in the Connect site (https://connect.microsoft.com/site1145/Feedback). Microsoft will work directly with Rovi on any further issues you might be having.
> 
> Thank you,
> Rovi Client Services


perhaps because I documented in my email that both zap2it and titantv had program guide info for the channel (as I detailed in post #677) then it was relatively easy for them to figure out that they were odd man out and needed to fix it. so I'll keep an eye on TV Guide (see attachment) and see if 11.3 does indeed get added to the channel list with proper guide data.

btw, this was not the station that has been responsive. this is the station that I didn't hear back from at all but had cc'd them on the initial rovi email and had submitted feedback on their website as well notifying them.


----------



## deaners12

Does anyone here have TiVo service through Cogeco in Canada? They only have one model of TiVo box (TiVo T6) with TiVo Minis. Our software is still on 20.5.9 RC15 here with no scheduled software updates in sight.

Makes me wonder if we will even get Rovi guide data here, or if Rovi's purchase of TiVo only affects U.S. clients? I would guess that it's all universal, especially where the data source is considered.

Anybody have any insight on this one?


----------



## Space

matk123 said:


> And "New" vs "Repeat" markings!


I know that WMC does not use the "new" or "repeat" markings in the data (I'm not sure about TiVo). It uses the OAD (Original Air Date) to determine if a show is new or a repeat.

As far as I know, any foreign TV series airing for the first time in the US has the OAD of when it originally aired in it's native country, so "new" episodes (to the US) will always be marked as "Repeat".

I've heard that Gracenote may now have "OAD per country" where they supply the OAD for various regions so that the correct one for your region can be used. I have no idea if Rovi offers this, but WMC does not use it if they do.


----------



## CoxInPHX

tivoyahoo said:


> I'd also sent on thursday essentially the same email to TV Guide as Rovi addressed to [email protected] I haven't gotten anything back from TV Guide at this point, not even an auto reply.


Same here no response from TV Guide and my listings are still wrong on TVGuide.com a week after reporting.

I have 33 channels that have errors, according to TVGuide.com
Most are the listings for the East feed, when I have the West feed.
The rest are channels with no guide data at all.

EDIT:
TiVo should have been proactive and leveraged the power of this community, asking us to compare their Line-ups to those posted at TVGuide.com. TiVo should have worked with Rovi to set-up a consumer webpage to report these errors directly to Rovi, freeing up the resources at TiVo, instead of being inundated with Line-up corrections after the conversion.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

rainwater said:


> Cover art is always changing. Ira warned that a lot of the cover art will be missing after the transition (maybe all?).


Right, what I meant by it is since they were movies that had been around a few months (Hallmark Mysteries) with no cover art, and now they have them, I wondered if changes already started.


----------



## TonyD79

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Right, what I meant by it is since they were movies that had been around a few months (Hallmark Mysteries) with no cover art, and now they have them, I wondered if changes already started.


Maybe some cleaning of the data pipes due to the change. May have cleaned up some routines either client or server side while prepping.


----------



## mlcarson

I hope tvguide.com/listings isn't exactly what we can expect. If it is, it's the same mess that WMC had. For instance:

Doctor Who: Rovi - all episodes show the generic description below.
A cult favorite about the journeys through the universe of a time-traveling eccentric, a cultural icon who has been portrayed by more than a half dozen actors since the show's 1963 debut on the BBC. The campy sci-fi fantasy developed an equally fanatical following when it was syndicated in the U.S. in the late 1970s, mostly on PBS.

Doctor Who: Gracenote
3:00 - "The Mark of the Rani" - The TARDIS lands in 19th century England.
3:30 - "The Mark of the Rani" - The Rani is extracting a brain chemical from her clients at the bathhouse.

This is just an example from the Saturday afternoon data. If they still haven't fixed stuff like this in over a year of the WMC people complaining, I doubt that it bodes well for Tivo. 

It's ridiculous for Tivo to be thinking that the cover art will be their biggest problem unless Rovi is just screwing over TVGuide.com 

I'm wondering what a lifetime Tivo Roamio Pro and some Mini's will go for on the used market.


----------



## CoxInPHX

mlcarson said:


> I hope tvguide.com/listings isn't exactly what we can expect. If it is, it's the same mess that WMC had. For instance:
> 
> Doctor Who: Rovi - all episodes show the generic description below.
> A cult favorite about the journeys through the universe of a time-traveling eccentric, a cultural icon who has been portrayed by more than a half dozen actors since the show's 1963 debut on the BBC. The campy sci-fi fantasy developed an equally fanatical following when it was syndicated in the U.S. in the late 1970s, mostly on PBS.
> 
> Doctor Who: Gracenote
> 3:00 - "The Mark of the Rani" - The TARDIS lands in 19th century England.
> 3:30 - "The Mark of the Rani" - The Rani is extracting a brain chemical from her clients at the bathhouse.
> 
> This is just an example from the Saturday afternoon data. If they still haven't fixed stuff like this in over a year of the WMC people complaining, I doubt that it bodes well for Tivo.


EDIT: "The Mark of the Rani" is Classic Doctor Who, which station is broadcasting those?

NVRMND: It is a local sub-channel, that my cable provider does not carry.

When I go to TVGuide.com/listings

Doctor Who does not air until Monday, Aug 22, on BBC America and I have correct Episode info through Thursday, Sep 1

Zip 85044, Cox Communications (Phoenix) (Digital (non-rebuild))


----------



## mlcarson

It's a local station here - KEYTDT2. Retro TV has been rebroadcasting the original Doctor Who series on Saturday and Sunday's from 3pm-5pm. TVGuide shows the channel as MYRTN.

It's not just this though. Here's the Simpson's on KKFX:
"Matt Groening's subversive, animated satire about Springfield's hapless first family became a cult favorite when it premiered on Fox in 1989 after first being seen in 1987 as a short on 'The Tracey Ullman Show.' That was then; now it's TV longest running comedy. Not since 'The Flintstones' in the '60s has a cartoon series drawn such a large adult audience, and, ay caramba, given us pop-culture expressions for the ages. And in 1999, Time magazine called it the best TV show of the 20th century."

All of the episodes show the same generic description.


----------



## CoxInPHX

Lassie on Cozi TV is also all generic, 
It seems quite a few local sub-channels have generic guide data.


----------



## mlcarson

Also had one channel missing in the TVGuide data:
733 BravoHP
Not exactly sure why since this isn't really an obscure one.

The generic guide data and the inability to provide any guide data to some OTA channels was a Rovi characteristic when WMC transitioned to it. Or if they could provide data, the OTA channel would be mapped to the wrong local frequency. They handled OTA channels a lot worse than Tribune/GraceNote did.

Another thing that they did quite a bit was get confused on the Pacific vs Eastern channels. This was when I was in NM so it wasn't as cut and dry on MST/MDT as it is here in PST/PDT.


----------



## Jed1

CoxInPHX said:


> Same here no response from TV Guide and my listings are still wrong on TVGuide.com a week after reporting.
> 
> I have 33 channels that have errors, according to TVGuide.com
> Most are the listings for the East feed, when I have the West feed.
> The rest are channels with no guide data at all.
> 
> EDIT:
> TiVo should have been proactive and leveraged the power of this community, asking us to compare their Line-ups to those posted at TVGuide.com. TiVo should have worked with Rovi to set-up a consumer webpage to report these errors directly to Rovi, freeing up the resources at TiVo, instead of being inundated with Line-up corrections after the conversion.


I reported a bunch of missing channels in my lineup to TV Guide and it took about 2 months for the changes to show up. I never received any type of conformation email either.

I used to have contacts at Gemstar/Rovi but a bunch of people were let go when Rovi pulled the plug on TVGOS. This basically put an end to dealing with the consumer with EPG (Electronic Program Guides) issues. Rovi now only deals with IPG (Interactive Program Guides) which are distributed to the MSOs. So Rovi now only deals with the MSOs.

I suspect we will have to deal with TiVo to report issues as I stated Rovi really doesn't have any method of dealing with consumers anymore.


----------



## Space

Rovi often has certain series/episodes that are missing ESI (Episode Specific Info) while Gracenote has it. They have gotten better since the cutover on WMC, but for some reason still can't seem to get everything working.

This mostly seems to be with older shows, shows that are airing new episodes seem to be OK for the most part.

For instance MeTV airs old episodes of "Carol Burnett and Friends". zap2it has unique ESI for each episode, Rovi just has general descriptions. If you look at the rest of the shows on this network, they mostly seem to have ESI, so it makes no sense that one show would not have it, but that is how it is...

Zap2it data with ESI:
http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tv/carol-burnett-and-friends/upcoming-episodes/EP00000799?aid=zap2it

Rovi data without ESI:
http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/carol-burnett-and-friends/tv-listings/389321/


----------



## JWhites

lpwcomp said:


> Have you not seen this?


No. I'm still struggling to get past page 16 of this thread. My goodness y'all post alot, lol


----------



## JWhites

rainwater said:


> Cover art is always changing. Ira warned that a lot of the cover art will be missing after the transition (maybe all?).


I've been noticing th cover art has been changing over to the same art Rovi uses. It's pretty interesting. Still no change in the program descriptions though.


----------



## JWhites

mrizzo80 said:


> I think good cover art is needed for a polished look.
> 
> One thing I've never understood is why the cover art changes on *old* shows - like _LOST_ and _Star Trek:TNG_. I'm sure TiVo is giving us whatever Gracenote sends them, but why are Gracenote's cover art assets changing as often as they do? Maybe the content owners refresh the cover art from time to time for VOD purchases and therefore Gracenote updates their cache accordingly? (Obviously this isn't a big deal, I'm just curious.)
> 
> I just noticed cover art on a show that has never had it before: _Catastrophe _from Amazon. I've had a OP for this show for over a year - today is the first I've seen non-generic artwork for it.


I've noticed that with some shows the cover art changes each season, like with the Simpsons. Pretty cool.


----------



## JWhites

astrohip said:


> What kind of question is that? Like there's someone at Verizon or Google you can "hold responsible" for their shortcomings?
> 
> And yes, if I was you, I would jump to the X1 right now, today, pronto, ASAP. That way you can hold Comcast responsible. I'm sure they have a name to give you.


It's a valid question. TiVo could flat out lie to us and say one thing and do the complete opposite the following week and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it. It could all be nullification and placating. There isn't any accountability if they fail to follow through on what they say. It's a problem with all companies, however at least with TiVo (for now) someone actually comes here and answers questions, or at least says what we want to hear. I'm just skeptical of a company that isn't 100% live or die dependent on keeping their retail customers happy. They have other pans in the fire like their MSO deals and hardware manufacturers to supply the software and UI. For all we know as soon as the deal with Rovi is done they'll do a 180 and do none of what they said they'd do and us retail customers are SOL.


----------



## astrohip

JWhites said:


> It's a valid question. TiVo could flat out lie to us and say one thing and do the complete opposite the following week and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it.


I understood your concern. It's a valid concern, especially with smaller companies. Throw in a merger, and who knows what happens.

What I didn't understand was the request for "someone to hold responsible". Unless they have a CRO, we're all SOL anyway.


----------



## HarperVision

Space said:


> Space said: ...........





JWhites said:


> ........ For all we know as soon as the deal with Rovi is done they'll do a 180 and do none of what they said they'd do and us retail customers are SOL.


I think JWhites may be on to something, I mean come on, the Gods are talking right here in this thread. Think about it, we now have "Space" posting in this thread and we ALL know that's "....the final frontier!" So it's a sure sign of the end of TiVo as we know it!


----------



## atmuscarella

JWhites said:


> It's a valid question. TiVo could flat out lie to us and say one thing and do the complete opposite the following week and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it. It could all be nullification and placating. There isn't any accountability if they fail to follow through on what they say. It's a problem with all companies, however at least with TiVo (for now) someone actually comes here and answers questions, or at least says what we want to hear. I'm just skeptical of a company that isn't 100% live or die dependent on keeping their retail customers happy. They have other pans in the fire like their MSO deals and hardware manufacturers to supply the software and UI. For all we know as soon as the deal with Rovi is done they'll do a 180 and do none of what they said they'd do and us retail customers are SOL.


Welcome to American Capitalism. Unless a company actually does something that they can be sued in court over there is no accountability.

If this transition completely fails and TiVo goes bust our TiVos become worthless otherwise there will be some level of problems that will mostly get worked out over time. Getting worked up over this type stuff is a waist of time, especially before something has gone wrong. While I don't really believe we are going to get completely screwed, it is likely we will feel some pain.

For everyone's amusement: While I certainly will not be happy if TiVo does something that ends up screwing me, the prize to the company that screwed me the most will still go to Renault. Back in 84 I bought a brand new French built Renault through an AMC dealer. It cost me $14,000 which was more than my annual salary at the time, a few years latter Renault left North America, my 4 year old car that still looked new and only had 50,000 miles on it had the computer board in it fail. That board was only used in one model, with one engine, for one year, I was told there were none in North America and the only way to get one was to fly to France and get one from a Renault dealer there. I ended up having to give the car to the dealer for scrap - to cover what I owed for towing and figuring out what was wrong. Now that is getting screwed.


----------



## tivoyahoo

astrohip said:


> What I didn't understand was the request for "someone to hold responsible". Unless they have a CRO, we're all SOL anyway.


Did you miss the announcement naming the new CRO and his big introduction? And in his very first sit down interview as CRO with the WSJ he volunteered for public flogging...


OfficialTivoCRO said:


> As my first official move in taking office, I personally give JWhites the first opportunity to knock the stuffing out of me if Tivo doesn't deliver.





HarperVision said:


> ... the Gods are talking right here in this thread. Think about it, we now have "Space" posting in this thread ...


yeah, but there's still some yahoo in this thread with posts like this one...


----------



## HarperVision

tivoyahoo said:


> Did you miss the announcement naming the new CRO and his big introduction? And in his very first sit down interview as CRO with the WSJ he volunteered for public flogging... yeah, but there's still some yahoo in this thread with posts like this one...


No, that's the prior CRO. The new one is faceless and much older I believe, as he is quite grey.


----------



## tivoyahoo

HarperVision said:


> The new one is faceless and much older I believe, as he is quite grey.


looks like JWhites already worked him over and he's an empty shell of his old self


----------



## CoxInPHX

CoxInPHX said:


> Same here no response from TV Guide and my listings are still wrong on TVGuide.com a week after reporting.
> 
> I have 33 channels that have errors, according to TVGuide.com
> Most are the listings for the East feed, when I have the West feed.
> The rest are channels with no guide data at all.


I noticed tonight all 33 channels have been fixed.

I sent several emails to various contacts, so I have no idea which email got the corrections made.

So the sky is not falling


----------



## mlcarson

The sky is still falling. You just think it's going to miss you and maybe it mostly will. EPG123 for WMC wasn't developed for no reason though. I suspect the complaints when Rovi guide data rolls out will be historically high for Tivo.



CoxInPHX said:


> I noticed tonight all 33 channels have been fixed.
> 
> I sent several emails to various contacts, so I have no idea which email got the corrections made.
> 
> So the sky is not falling


----------



## CoxInPHX

mlcarson said:


> I suspect the complaints when Rovi guide data rolls out will be historically high for Tivo.


I expect you will be correct. But Rovi has an invested interest in making sure it goes fairly smoothly, if not for the retail customers, surely for all the MSO customers.

I recommend everyone, go through the http://www.tvguide.com/listings/ and look for channel line-up issues and submit multiple reports with your cable provider, local contacts and corporate contacts. For those OTA, I don't think you have many options except wait for TiVo to open up Rovi data reporting.


----------



## tivoyahoo

CoxInPHX said:


> I expect you will be correct. But Rovi has an invested interest in making sure it goes fairly smoothly, if not for the retail customers, surely for all the MSO customers.


Yep, and HarperVision already called out the SEC filing which sheds light on the Tivo/Rovi strategy and how retail customers are viewed:
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10972468#post10972468


> "Consumer DVRs services as proving grounds for Next Generation MSO products"


so reading between the lines on how that's being sold to investors:

proving grounds = throw it out to the peasants in the field / retail beta testers = guinea pigs for the real customers (MSO's) and let them field trial it til we've got it worked into something solid, proven, and marketable and ready for prime time.

We're about to receive our new guide data fellow lab mice (see attachment)... Wanna know what's in it? or what's not in it is really the question...



CoxInPHX said:


> I recommend everyone, go through the http://www.tvguide.com/listings/ and look for channel line-up issues and submit multiple reports with your cable provider, local contacts and corporate contacts. For those OTA, I don't think you have many options except wait for TiVo to open up Rovi data reporting.


I second that on checking tvguide sooner vs. later to see what's there and what's not. but why not for ota as well? how is that different from cable? not following that point. At first glance I found ota channels entirely missing on tvguide.com and have posted on that in this thread with screen grabs. It's easy to check your lineup and compare against zap2it and titantv.

And why isn't Tivo accepting reports now? At least for channels missing entirely from the lineup? that seems like a big hole and no brainer to move on sooner vs. later, as in now. oh, wait, I forgot - we're the testers in this scenario. once we get all the kinks and problems worked out then it'll be ready for prime time player MSO's who matter. We're just a "proving ground" / test base.



CoxInPHX said:


> Lassie on Cozi TV is also all generic,
> It seems quite a few local sub-channels have generic guide data.


that's a good example and cozi is carried ota in lots of markets and users can see the lack of description in their tvguide listings for that channel, whether it be cable or ota.



mlcarson said:


> I hope tvguide.com/listings isn't exactly what we can expect. If it is, it's the same mess that WMC had. For instance:
> 
> Doctor Who: Rovi - all episodes show the generic description below.
> .....
> 
> It's ridiculous for Tivo to be thinking that the cover art will be their biggest problem unless Rovi is just screwing over TVGuide.com


That's exactly the situation - the data has big holes and the cover art line is a distraction from that 800 pound gorilla. Has Tivo offered anything to indicate how the guide data will be an improvement / something better than what we're used to? or how they can leverage it to improve searches or passes for example? maybe they have and I've not seen it. that would be a good sign if so.



HarperVision said:


> Think about it, we now have "Space" posting in this thread and we ALL know that's "....the final frontier!" So it's a sure sign of the end of TiVo as we know it!


You don't have to look beyond Star Trek to see the real picture. Here's another network like Cozi - Heroes and Icons:
http://www.heroesandiconstv.com/schedule/
carried nationwide and that runs Star Trek 6 days a week. take a look at tvguide.com/listings and see if there is a description, episode number, anything at all for your market, other than Star Trek: The Original Series for 6 days a week. It's scheduled to run today at 8pm EST/5pm PST and in my case, not only is there no description at all, but the air time on tvguide is 2 hours off as well. Good luck recording that except for manually with wrong shown name. and even if you do get the time slot right - no description or episode number / name. And I checked the cable & ota listings - same problem on both. and you can look at antenna & cable on tvguide.com - just select change provider and click over. But look at that, Tivo already has me posting and cleaning up the data mess like a good little guinea pig.

BTW, has anyone who experienced the roamio h.264 problem channels on comcast asked tivo for any type of credit? So while that was going on, I called them and said "I bought a bolt because the roamios aren't fully mpeg4 compatible as promised. Can we move the monthly service over?" "I'm sorry, no" Can you give me some sort of credit for this situation? "No" Any timetable on a fix? "No" What can you do? tivo: what would you like us to do? "fix the roamios so I don't have to buy a bolt" tivo: "we're sorry, and will you be choosing to put lifetime on your new Bolt today sir?" "No, I don't even want the Bolt, can you fix my Roamios? Can you credit my service? you should be giving me back money not getting more from me" Well I guess they finally fixed my roamios cause they want me as a field tester for their guide data. Why did they time the roamio workaround (which they don't call a fix) with the guide data release and not give it to us sooner? too much bother? The cover art just doesn't look good on this picture.


----------



## atmuscarella

We should be very very happy that TiVo considers: "Consumer DVRs services as proving grounds for Next Generation MSO products". 

Many of us have believed for awhile that without MSOs stand alone TiVos would have already died. Both the Premiere Line and the Roamio Line will be supported for extended periods of time because they are the same DVRs the MSOs use. We are getting new products because the development can also be used for products being sold to MSOs. 

Unless someone has a mystical way to sell millions of stand alone TiVos be happy TiVo considers us useful in supporting their MSO business.


----------



## CoxInPHX

tivoyahoo said:


> I second that on checking tvguide sooner vs. later to see what's there and what's not. *but why not for ota as well? how is that different from cable?* not following that point.


With cable you have a single point of contact for all channel issues, who do you contact for OTA? Local stations are almost always clueless about issues and really do not care, unless the OTA signal is off the air. I have experience with this and as long as the station engineer can see the station at his home he does not care about anything else, (OK, I am generalizing here, some probably do). I could not even get a local station to fix their closed captions, even after filing an FCC complaint.


----------



## CoxInPHX

As for local sub-channels like Cozi, Antenna TV, etc and no program descriptions, or missing channles in the line-up, we here at the TCF should start contacting the network corporate offices and notifying them that Rovi is not providing that data, and point to tvguide.com/listings as the example.

GetTV - Nanny and the Professor - no descriptions
GetTV - Ensign O'Toole - no descriptions
GetTV - The Ghost an Mrs Muir - no descriptions
GetTV - Whispering Smith - no descriptions
GetTV - Nanny and the Professor - no descriptions
GetTV - In The Heat of the Night - no descriptions
GetTV - Airwolf - no descriptions

GetTV - Most Everything = no descriptions


----------



## aaronwt

So far I'm not noticing any issues with local sub-channels like Cozi, MeTV, Buzzr, Comet, Justice, Ion etc.. All the specific episode descriptions are there along with original air dates. And the guide goes out to 9/2.

EDIT: I do see some issues with GetTV. I see generic descriptions for Lucy.


----------



## aaronwt

CoxInPHX said:


> As for local sub-channels like Cozi, Antenna TV, etc and no program descriptions, or missing channles in the line-up, we here at the TCF should start contacting the network corporate offices and notifying them that Rovi is not providing that data, and point to tvguide.com/listings as the example.
> 
> GetTV - Nanny and the Professor - no descriptions
> GetTV - Ensign O'Toole - no descriptions
> GetTV - The Ghost an Mrs Muir - no descriptions
> GetTV - Whispering Smith - no descriptions
> GetTV - Nanny and the Professor - no descriptions
> GetTV - In The Heat of the Night - no descriptions
> GetTV - Airwolf - no descriptions
> 
> GetTV - Most Everything = no descriptions


All those shows are fine here for GEtTV. They all have specific descriptions and original air dates. And the guide data goes out to 9/2. I originally thought Lucy had a generic description. But it was actually a Lucy movie from 2003 and not the TV show

EDIT: Just for clarification, For GEtTV I'm looking at the guide data from my BOLT connected to FiOS. For the other channels I was looking at my Roamio connected to OTA. Here, OTA GEtTV is a sub-channel of one of the Spanish channels so I have it removed from my channel list.

And currently I'm using a Mini to access my Host TiVos. Since I had some water damage recently and had to move a bunch of stuff into the room where all my TiVos currently are. So I can't easily access them to make any changes.


----------



## lew

Some posters are doom and gloom. Some posters are jumping the gun. Some posters are making work for themselves.
1. tvguide.com doesn't mention Rovi anywhere on the site. Tvguide might be (probably is) using Rovi guide data BUT there is no reason to think a complaint to Rovi due to guide data issues is appropriate. Likewise complaining to tivo isn't really appropriate. We don't, officially, know if tvguide.com is using Rovi. We certainly don't know if tivo will be using an updated version.
2. I have no doubt there will be some issues. Probably with the sub channels. I don't see any listings for GetTV on zap2it. I don't know if they don't have any listings or the channel is so obscure it wasn't carried on the systems I checked (FiOS, Cablevision. Directv)
3. My suggestion. Wait until the changeover. First check your SPs (OK Onepasses) and ToDoList. Make sure the passes mapped correctly. Only be concerned with guide data 7 or 8 days out. Check the channels you watch. Missing or incorrect guide data. Provide feedback to tivo. Currently we'll be complaining to tivo who will contact Rovi. By the end of the year contacting tivo will be the same as contacting Rovi.


----------



## CoxInPHX

aaronwt said:


> All those shows are fine here for GEtTV. They all have specific descriptions and original air dates. And the guide data goes out to 9/2. I originally thought Lucy had a generic description. But it was actually a Lucy movie from 2003 and not the TV show
> 
> EDIT: Just for clarification, For GEtTV I'm looking at the guide data from my BOLT connected to FiOS. For the other channels I was looking at my Roamio connected to OTA. Here, OTA GEtTV is a sub-channel of one of the Spanish channels so I have it removed from my channel list.


You need to look at your local line-up for GetTV at http://www.tvguide.com/listings/ to see what is in the Rovi data.

Just checked: Verizon FiOS (Silver Spring) - GetTV Channel 464 = no descriptions on most series, movies do have data.


----------



## CoxInPHX

lew said:


> I don't see any listings for GetTV on zap2it.


Not all gloom and doom just pointing out facts. Compare the listings.

Zap2it - GetTV Phoenix - 35.3 - KFPHCD3 (KFPH-CD3)
http://tvschedule.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCSGrid.do?stnNum=87911&channel=35.3&aid=tvschedule

TVGuide - GetTV 35.3
http://www.tvguide.com/listings/
look at Zip 85044 OTA listings


----------



## cherry ghost

I got a message after this morning's connection that I should expect a 2-3 hour service interruption sometime in the next 24 hours for a guide update.


----------



## schatham

Does anyone know if the new Rovi guide will tack on to the end of the old guide (10 days or so out) or erase the current guide and start immediately?


----------



## CoxInPHX

schatham said:


> erase the current guide and start immediately?


----------



## JoeKustra

cherry ghost said:


> I got a message after this morning's connection that I should expect a 2-3 hour service interruption sometime in the next 24 hours for a guide update.


Wow, that's long enough for a completely new guide on a Series 5 or 6. A Premiere may take twice that long. My daily fix is in 45 minutes. I'll be looking for the message.


----------



## lpwcomp

It's really a misnomer to call this a guida data change. It's more than that. It's a program information change. For one thing, totally different seriesId.


----------



## Jed1

cherry ghost said:


> I got a message after this morning's connection that I should expect a 2-3 hour service interruption sometime in the next 24 hours for a guide update.


Check when your next service connection is as Ira Bahr said this will happen in the early morning hours. I suspect when my two Roamios cycle around to the early morning connections I will get the message.
Check under the copyrights section and about 5 pages down it will say guide data is supplied by Tribune. After the guide change check and see if that changes.

This will be a total data replacement and will not be tacked on to the end of the TMS data. I guess TiVo is going to do a staggered roll out so there won't by a massive flood of support calls due to the line ups that are going to be out of date.
I did manage to get my TV Guide data lineup updated recently as the last time it was updated was in October of 2012 when Rovi announced the shutdown of TVGOS.
I do have about a dozen missing or incorrect channels yet but it is much better than before.


----------



## osu1991

CoxInPHX said:


> As for local sub-channels like Cozi, Antenna TV, etc and no program descriptions, or missing channles in the line-up, we here at the TCF should start contacting the network corporate offices and notifying them that Rovi is not providing that data, and point to tvguide.com/listings as the example.
> 
> GetTV - Nanny and the Professor - no descriptions
> GetTV - Ensign O'Toole - no descriptions
> GetTV - The Ghost an Mrs Muir - no descriptions
> GetTV - Whispering Smith - no descriptions
> GetTV - Nanny and the Professor - no descriptions
> GetTV - In The Heat of the Night - no descriptions
> GetTV - Airwolf - no descriptions
> 
> GetTV - Most Everything = no descriptions


Seeing the same thing in Tulsa for OTA and Cox listings on GetTv. Just generic info on tvguide.com and currently season, episode number and episode info on the Tivo.


----------



## HarperVision

atmuscarella said:


> We should be very very happy that TiVo considers: "Consumer DVRs services as proving grounds for Next Generation MSO products". Many of us have believed for awhile that without MSOs stand alone TiVos would have already died. Both the Premiere Line and the Roamio Line will be supported for extended periods of time because they are the same DVRs the MSOs use. We are getting new products because the development can also be used for products being sold to MSOs. Unless someone has a mystical way to sell millions of stand alone TiVos be happy TiVo considers us useful in supporting their MSO business.


Even though I'm the one that posted it for informational purposes, I agree with this. :up:


----------



## Wil

lpwcomp said:


> ...For one thing, totally different seriesId


Sounds like when the the dust settles, all my old TV episodes will NOT reload into a Roamio all nice and neatly sorted out by season and episode?

Also sounds like all the addressing is apt to change for tivoapp, etc. modifications on the series 3s/HDs. What a revolting development this is!


----------



## cherry ghost

Jed1 said:


> Check when your next service connection is as Ira Bahr said this will happen in the early morning hours. I suspect when my two Roamios cycle around to the early morning connections I will get the message.
> Check under the copyrights section and about 5 pages down it will say guide data is supplied by Tribune. After the guide change check and see if that changes.
> 
> This will be a total data replacement and will not be tacked on to the end of the TMS data. I guess TiVo is going to do a staggered roll out so there won't by a massive flood of support calls due to the line ups that are going to be out of date.
> I did manage to get my TV Guide data lineup updated recently as the last time it was updated was in October of 2012 when Rovi announced the shutdown of TVGOS.
> I do have about a dozen missing or incorrect channels yet but it is much better than before.


Next scheduled was tomorrow around noon. I force a connection and nothing has changed. I think the guide change is going to be on a connection initiated by TiVo, assuming they can do that.


----------



## mlcarson

Some posters have already been through this with WMC and know what to expect. The only difference this time is that there's a mechanism to submit tickets to Tivo. The number of tickets submitted when this goes live is going to be massive. If you don't want a disruption in service, you try to fix the issues before they affect you. The timing is bad too in that this is coming just before the new TV season.

It took Tivo a week to get cable channels fixed in the guide when there was nothing going on. It took Tivo a month or more to get OTA guide data fixed. How long do you think it's going to take to get things fixed when there's a flood of tickets?

My advice is to have a Tivo alternative ready because it's probably going to be a rocky ride. TVguide.com was the best way of checking basic channel lineup/guide data problems during the WMC Rovi transition. It doesn't however show the issues with Season Passes and the like. I think on this "upgrade" I hope my Tivo's get chosen last.



lew said:


> Some posters are doom and gloom. Some posters are jumping the gun. Some posters are making work for themselves.
> 1. tvguide.com doesn't mention Rovi anywhere on the site. Tvguide might be (probably is) using Rovi guide data BUT there is no reason to think a complaint to Rovi due to guide data issues is appropriate. Likewise complaining to tivo isn't really appropriate. We don't, officially, know if tvguide.com is using Rovi. We certainly don't know if tivo will be using an updated version.
> 2. I have no doubt there will be some issues. Probably with the sub channels. I don't see any listings for GetTV on zap2it. I don't know if they don't have any listings or the channel is so obscure it wasn't carried on the systems I checked (FiOS, Cablevision. Directv)
> 3. My suggestion. Wait until the changeover. First check your SPs (OK Onepasses) and ToDoList. Make sure the passes mapped correctly. Only be concerned with guide data 7 or 8 days out. Check the channels you watch. Missing or incorrect guide data. Provide feedback to tivo. Currently we'll be complaining to tivo who will contact Rovi. By the end of the year contacting tivo will be the same as contacting Rovi.


----------



## CoxInPHX

mlcarson said:


> Some posters have already been through this with WMC and know what to expect.


The up-side is everyone's WMC data finally may get fixed


----------



## NashGuy

atmuscarella said:


> We should be very very happy that TiVo considers: "Consumer DVRs services as proving grounds for Next Generation MSO products".
> 
> Many of us have believed for awhile that without MSOs stand alone TiVos would have already died. Both the Premiere Line and the Roamio Line will be supported for extended periods of time because they are the same DVRs the MSOs use. We are getting new products because the development can also be used for products being sold to MSOs.
> 
> Unless someone has a mystical way to sell millions of stand alone TiVos be happy TiVo considers us useful in supporting their MSO business.


That's all true, although one has to wonder if that business model (retail development costs ultimately funding profits from MSO units) can survive as we move into a post-CableCARD era if there is no successor standard in place. If TiVo-powered boxes deployed by MSOs are not using CableCARDs and they are using hardware platforms developed independently of TiVo (e.g. the new 4K Virgin TV box in the UK, the new eBox/Swivel! box from Evolution Digital/WOW! in the USA), then how much of any future retail TiVo product could be repurposed in an MSO STB?


----------



## lpwcomp

Wil said:


> Sounds like when the the dust settles, all my old TV episodes will NOT reload into a Roamio all nice and neatly sorted out by season and episode?


Ira intimated as much in one of his responses during his recent 20 questions session.


----------



## TonyD79

mlcarson said:


> Some posters have already been through this with WMC and know what to expect. The only difference this time is that there's a mechanism to submit tickets to Tivo. The number of tickets submitted when this goes live is going to be massive. If you don't want a disruption in service, you try to fix the issues before they affect you. The timing is bad too in that this is coming just before the new TV season.
> 
> It took Tivo a week to get cable channels fixed in the guide when there was nothing going on. It took Tivo a month or more to get OTA guide data fixed. How long do you think it's going to take to get things fixed when there's a flood of tickets?
> 
> My advice is to have a Tivo alternative ready because it's probably going to be a rocky ride. TVguide.com was the best way of checking basic channel lineup/guide data problems during the WMC Rovi transition. It doesn't however show the issues with Season Passes and the like. I think on this "upgrade" I hope my Tivo's get chosen last.


One would hope that is offset some by a better relationship with the data people. It is in Rovi's best interest to react to TiVo requests quicker since they will soon be TiVo.


----------



## lpwcomp

TonyD79 said:


> One would hope that is offset some by a better relationship with the data people. It is in Rovi's best interest to react to TiVo requests quicker since they will soon be TiVo.


To my mind, they actually have _*less*_ incentive to fix program data for TiVo since thay have a captive consumer.


----------



## TonyD79

lpwcomp said:


> To my mind, they actually have _*less*_ incentive to fix program data for TiVo since thay have a captive consumer.


Huh? They want to damage their own product? Grace note didn't sell tivos or TiVo services.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

My useless thoughts and prayers go out to my Tivo friends. 

If you don't make it to the other side, haunt us so we know you're still with us.


----------



## lpwcomp

TonyD79 said:


> Huh? They want to damage their own product? Grace note didn't sell tivos or TiVo services.


Why do you assume that they give a rodent's prosterior? They didn't care about fixing their crappy data for custumers who had options,, why should they care about a "customer" who has none?


----------



## schatham

BigJimOutlaw said:


> My useless thoughts and prayers go out to my Tivo friends.
> 
> If you don't make it to the other side, haunt us so we know you're still with us.


I guess your one of the first ones to get the new guide. I did not get any message but do have a 3:00 am update scheduled. This is unusual since my last update was 4:00pm today.


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## jlb

No sign of anything yet on my TiVoHD....I just hope it all shakes out far enough ahead of the premiere week for the fall season


Sent from my iPad Mini 3 using Tapatalk


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## TonyD79

lpwcomp said:


> Why do you assume that they give a rodent's prosterior? They didn't care about fixing their crappy data for custumers who had options,, why should they care about a "customer" who has none?


What customer has none? The TiVo customer base could flee. rovi was not a consumer facing company. They will be as part of the merger.


----------



## lpwcomp

TonyD79 said:


> What customer has none? The TiVo customer base could flee. rovi was not a consumer facing company. They will be as part of the merger.


Their customer is the DVR division of the merged company, not the end user.


----------



## lew

I'm sure Rovi would like to poach customers from Gracenote. The success, or failure, of the tivo migration might have an impact on sales.

Some of the posters are too demanding, OK may have unreasonable expectations. A delay in getting cover art and logos isn't a big deal, to regular customers. A delay in getting all the sub channels isn't a big deal to most customers. Posters are talking about sub channels many of us aren't even sure if we get. Channels even Gracenote doesn't get 100% right.

That said I'm not putting my info on a priority list. This one time where I'd rather be the last to get the improvement, not the first.

I wonder what will happen to recordings scheduled during the conversion.


----------



## tivoyahoo

CoxInPHX said:


> I noticed tonight all 33 channels have been fixed.
> 
> I sent several emails to various contacts, so I have no idea which email got the corrections made.
> 
> So the sky is not falling


I was able to get a change made as well and it was only a matter of days, and much faster than I anticipated, but likewise there were numerous emails involved, and none involving Tivo. In prior post #734 - http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10971758#post10971758 I included this email reply from Rovi...


> Hello -
> Our internal investigation has resulted in the addition of that channel. As the data is updated with our partners you should see the change on your guide.
> 
> Thank you,
> Rovi Client Services


In that same post I included an attachment graphic from TVGuide showing that NBC11.3 was missing - attached again here. Within 24 hours of the email above, the channel was added to the tvguide lineup - see attachment 2.

So Tivo encouraged TCF to post in the recent Q&A, so I did. maybe they read the posts and got involved with Rovi. I don't know. But hopefully they are reading, because there's still a big problem with Fox - more on that below.



lew said:


> 1. tvguide.com doesn't mention Rovi anywhere on the site. Tvguide might be (probably is) using Rovi guide data BUT there is no reason to think a complaint to Rovi due to guide data issues is appropriate. Likewise complaining to tivo isn't really appropriate. We don't, officially, know if tvguide.com is using Rovi. We certainly don't know if tivo will be using an updated version.


When Rovi says "As the data is updated with our partners you should see the change on your guide" and the change shows up on TVGuide shortly thereafter as documented, that's a pretty good indicator in my book.



lew said:


> Some of the posters are too demanding, OK may have unreasonable expectations. A delay in getting cover art and logos isn't a big deal, to regular customers. A delay in getting all the sub channels isn't a big deal to most customers.


yes, those are in the minor category if it's just a few obscure channels in a given market that are missing.



lew said:


> Posters are talking about sub channels many of us aren't even sure if we get. Channels even Gracenote doesn't get 100% right.


Well, no. The case I've documented isn't an obscure subchannel. Take a look at attachment 2. The missing channel was carrying the closing ceremonies of the Olympics and The Voice season premiere Sunday evening, the primary programming of NBC and the most watched programs period for the evening.

NBC 11.1 and 11.3 are both hd and duplicate each other on different towers in different areas of the Greater San Francisco Bay Area. more details with frequencies are in my prior posts - links below. and by the way, that NBC station's office and studios are located about 5 miles from the Tivo Headquarters in San Jose. And the tower broadcasting the signal is on a peak about 10 miles from Tivo headquarters. So a lousy antenna at Tivo HQ would still receive a booming strong signal. And Tivo employees that work in the area receive the signal. So how does the claimed "tons of testing" by Tivo miss a channel right in their backyard? And it's a Big Four network. Oh, and guess what, the same problem exists on another Big Four in their backyard - the Fox affiliate. And it's all the subchannels and the main channel.

if Tivo can miss 2 of the big 4 networks in their backyard and in the 6th largest DMA in the country how much else has been missed? That doesn't extrapolate well, but granted it's a limited data set. and maybe a worst case example.



lew said:


> Some posters are jumping the gun. Some posters are making work for themselves.


I've been saying check tvguide for a few days now, because if you were seeing what I was seeing, better to get fixes in the pipeline sooner vs. later and be proactive. Especially if Tivo is going to soon be inundated with submissions. But Tivo should have been proactive in their testing and at least catching the big holes. It's the big holes that are not a good indicator of what to expect. And why this feels like a beta test of a product that isn't that strong to begin with and not ready for prime time after "tons of testing" when they are ready to roll out with 2 of the Big 4 missing in their own backyard, which happens to be my backyard. And again, we're not talking about episode descriptions, it's entire channels, and they are big ones. but maybe my market is the exception. but if there's one where you'd think Tivo would get it right, it would be their own backyard.



lew said:


> That said I'm not putting my info on a priority list. This one time where I'd rather be the last to get the improvement, not the first.
> 
> I wonder what will happen to recordings scheduled during the conversion.


Exactly, why be one of the early testers if it can be avoided. What is the benefit of getting the guide data early? is there any? I'd like to see the channel fixes in place first. and maybe now Tivo is officially taking submissions.

For reference, here is the full post history tracking this (in case you're reading Tivo):
post #723 - http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10971442#post10971442

post #696 - http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10970406#post10970406

post #677 - http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10968989#post10968989


----------



## tivoyahoo

jlb said:


> No sign of anything yet on my TiVoHD....I just hope it all shakes out far enough ahead of the premiere week for the fall season


Has your TivoHD even received a recent software update? I don't believe there has been a single post of a S2 receiving a software update. Nor an S3 648 that had above 11.0m or TivoHD that had above 11.0n software. Posts have only reported S4-6 updates. If this isn't the case, please post links on any S2-3 updates reported. thanks.


----------



## JoeKustra

schatham said:


> I guess your one of the first ones to get the new guide. I did not get any message but do have a 3:00 am update scheduled. This is unusual since my last update was 4:00pm today.


That's timing is not so unusual. Updates are about 26 hours, and never scheduled from 6pm to 2am. So if you follow the times, like I do, you're doing ok. Also, if no data is received, check your last Indexed Time. It doesn't move unless data is received. My next update is 5pm, so I know there will be another after 2am that will have no data. No guide update message yet either.


----------



## jlb

tivoyahoo said:


> Has your TivoHD even received a recent software update? I don't believe there has been a single post of a S2 receiving a software update. Nor an S3 648 that had above 11.0m or TivoHD that had above 11.0n software. Posts have only reported S4-6 updates. If this isn't the case, please post links on any S2-3 updates reported. thanks.


I'm on 11n something. don't forget there was a call for series 3/HD customers for a beta test not too long ago. I'm assuming that was to test out guide data on these boxes.....


----------



## cherry ghost

cherry ghost said:


> I got a message after this morning's connection that I should expect a 2-3 hour service interruption sometime in the next 24 hours for a guide update.


After nothing happened overnight, I forced a connection this morning and got a loading error(S01). The message said to restart the box and then connect. The restart wiped out all guide data. Two forced connections later and I have guide data again.


----------



## JoeKustra

cherry ghost said:


> After nothing happened overnight, I forced a connection this morning and got a loading error(S01). The message said to restart the box and then connect. The restart wiped out all guide data. Two forced connections later and I have guide data again.


Yuck. So much for smooth. However, was another connection already scheduled? When an update downloads there is always a guide update scheduled for about an hour later.


----------



## cherry ghost

JoeKustra said:


> Yuck. So much for smooth. However, was another connection already scheduled? When an update downloads there is always a guide update scheduled for about an hour later.


It was scheduled about two hours later.

The whole process took about 90 minutes, and most of that was the loading phase of the forced connections. The restart was fairly quick, so I had access to my recordings and live TV for most of the process.


----------



## jlb

cherry ghost said:


> After nothing happened overnight, I forced a connection this morning and got a loading error(S01). The message said to restart the box and then connect. The restart wiped out all guide data. Two forced connections later and I have guide data again.





JoeKustra said:


> Yuck. So much for smooth. However, was another connection already scheduled? When an update downloads there is always a guide update scheduled for about an hour later.


Actually, if that's ALL I have to do to help get thru it when my TiVoHD gets the new data, then I would actually be happy. I'm just glad this is all happening NOW and not during premiere week (yes, said from the perspective of someone who only subscribes to locals).


----------



## schatham

Why force the connection in the first place? Why not wait until Tivo sends it to you? Forcing a connection before it's planned may actually cause problems of partial data etc.

I'm talking about getting the new guide, not if you have other issues.


----------



## rainwater

JoeKustra said:


> Yuck. So much for smooth.


If the user would of waited, it probably would of happened overnight and been a smooth process.


----------



## schatham

Once someone has the new guide can you start a new thread called Rovi guide rather than info getting spread around different threads. I think that would be helpful.


----------



## jlb

schatham said:


> Once someone has the new guide can you start a new thread called Rovi guide rather than info getting spread around different threads. I think that would be helpful.


Great idea! Seconded!!


----------



## UCLABB

schatham said:


> Once someone has the new guide can you start a new thread called Rovi guide rather than info getting spread around different threads. I think that would be helpful.


How does one tell when one has the new guide? Is there some immediate clue?


----------



## tivoyahoo

Jed1 said:


> Check under the copyrights section and about 5 pages down it will say guide data is supplied by Tribune. After the guide change check and see if that changes.


thanks Jed1.
cherry ghost, did that line change to Rovi? Tell me they at least got that right. and that wasn't overlooked too like lots of channels in a rush to push to this out to the masses.

It's found under Account & System Info => Copyright & Trademarks.

On a Roamio, on the 6th page (5 clicks of the page down button)
"Program Guide Data provided by Tribune Media Services" right after a paragraph on Opera and if you get to the Apache page you've gone too far.

On a Bolt, it's on the 5th page (4 clicks of the page down button):
"Program Guide Data provided by Gracenote, Inc." and inbetween Opera and Apache

S3: same location and wording as Roamio minus the opera and apache references.


----------



## tivoyahoo

schatham said:


> Once someone has the new guide can you start a new thread called Rovi guide rather than info getting spread around different threads. I think that would be helpful.


well there is this thread that's 3 pages long at this point in time:

"Rovi is already killing TiVo"
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10973471

Of course, I'm sure a new "Rovi Guide Data is everything that we've wished for" thread will be popping up soon.


----------



## tivoyahoo

jlb said:


> I'm on 11n something. don't forget there was a call for series 3/HD customers for a beta test not too long ago. I'm assuming that was to test out guide data on these boxes.....


yes, it's been explained as a two-step process, with the software update first...



Ira Bahr said:


> There is a two-step process. Just this week, we updated the software on the S2-S6 boxes for the new data feeds. Starting next week we will be transitioning these boxes to the new data. During that download which will occur in the early AM hours and take two to three hours, the box will not be fully functional. After that, the DVR will function normally. We've done a ton of testing but we're counting on you guys to post any anomalies you might observe. Right now, we think the most obvious defect will be generic poster art on certain assets.


but this hasn't seemed to have proven true as far as S2-S3:
"we updated the software on the S2-S6 boxes for the new data feeds."
since no one has posted receiving new software on S2-S3 models.

And what hasn't been explained and clarified is how Tivo would like us to post in this regard:
"we're counting on you guys to post any anomalies you might observe"

A dedicated TCF thread for posts that Tivo will monitor and participate in? with tracking?

or form submission on the tivo website?
https://www.tivo.com/lineup.html



> Incorrect Channels Example: On channel 4 the TiVo Live Guide displays ABC, but it's really NBC.
> Missing Channels Example: Channel 5 is missing and it should be listed as PBS.
> Program Descriptions are Incorrect Example: The TiVo Live Guide shows ER on Channel 2 at 8:00 PM on 12/01/04, but should show CSI.
> Missing Provider Example: My cable provider is missing.


So I'm confused. The term post was used along with "you guys". So that means "you TCF guys post on TCF, we're counting on you to do so", right?? or does it? we do know he chooses his words carefully because when asked directly about a roamio fix, he wouldn't go that far and only called it a workaround.



David Bott said:


> Question 9:
> 
> When will 20.6.1a.RC7 be released for the Roamio to fix the Comcast H.264 recording issues?





Ira Bahr said:


> The H.264 problem is an issue that occurs when playing certain digital content in Comcast's linear broadcast lineup in certain areas around the country. The issue is somewhat technical, but it is related to the structure of the stream and certain hardware limitations with the chip we use in our STBs. We have implemented a reasonably robust workaround that is part of update the that we are doing this week. Eager to hear what you guys think.


So why leave it so muddled as to how TCF participates and posts on rovi guide data issues? are they leaving it up to us to decide the best thread format and are committing to track what we post?

Or is that entirely wrong? and he meant you guys submit on the tivo web form just like everybody else?


----------



## tivoyahoo

cherry ghost said:


> The whole process took about 90 minutes, and most of that was the loading phase of the forced connections. The restart was fairly quick, so I had access to my recordings and live TV for most of the process.


Thanks for posting all the details cherry ghost and keeping us informed. your tsn has seemed to have been on a fast track / first in line for all the recent updates, including one (RC7) that very few ever saw - maybe 5 posters on TCF. This is your recent roamio progression with updates about every week, right?

20.6.1RC14
to
20.6.1aRC7 with Roamio fix, whoops - workaround 
to
20.6.1aRC10 (last week and about a week+ or so after RC7)
to
Rovi Guide data (today)


----------



## cherry ghost

tivoyahoo said:


> Thanks for posting all the details cherry ghost and keeping us informed. your tsn has seemed to have been on a fast track / first in line for all the recent updates, including one (RC7) that very few ever saw - maybe 5 posters on TCF. This is your recent roamio progression with updates about every week, right?
> 
> 20.6.1RC14
> to
> 20.6.1aRC7 with Roamio fix, whoops - workaround
> to
> 20.6.1aRC10 (last week and about a week+ or so after RC7)
> to
> Rovi Guide data (today)


Yea, that looks right


----------



## Alan Gordon

tivoyahoo said:


> or form submission on the tivo website?
> https://www.tivo.com/lineup.html


Off-topic, but I'd like to take a minute to complain about TiVo's form submission page.

When submitting a error report, they have a required box for "Name of Cable or Satellite Provider". Does TiVo seriously have more satellite customers than OTA customers, that they can't mention OTA?

When reporting an issue, you are then forced to pick an issue:


Incorrect Channels
Missing Channels
Program Descriptions are Incorrect
Missing Provider

This year, I've contacted TiVo about adding channels ("Missing Channels"), missing or incorrect logos (not an option) and wrong affiliations (not an option), but I've had to pick something just to send them a message.

Then, once you get to where you can submit more information regarding the issue, you can't use paragraphs, which can be confusing when you are contacting them about multiple issues.

The page really needs updating...


----------



## JoeKustra

tivoyahoo said:


> Thanks for posting all the details cherry ghost and keeping us informed. your tsn has seemed to have been on a fast track / first in line for all the recent updates, including one (RC7) that very few ever saw - maybe 5 posters on TCF. This is your recent roamio progression with updates about every week, right?
> 
> 20.6.1RC14
> to
> 20.6.1aRC7 with Roamio fix, whoops - workaround
> to
> 20.6.1aRC10 (last week and about a week+ or so after RC7)
> to
> Rovi Guide data (today)


I'm just guessing, but one of my basic Roamio boxes did receive 1aRC7. It's the one I usually add to the priority list. Another box went right to 1aRC10 and it has never been on the priority list.

Any guess as to Mini boxes getting updates? Mine are all on 1aRC10 right now.


----------



## Alan Gordon

CoxInPHX said:


> Local stations are almost always clueless about issues and really do not care, unless the OTA signal is off the air. I have experience with this and as long as the station engineer can see the station at his home he does not care about anything else, (OK, I am generalizing here, some probably do). I could not even get a local station to fix their closed captions, even after filing an FCC complaint.


+1

I've had the same experiences. I have dealt with a few people who actually cared, but most ended up giving up when they finally understood what I was talking about ("We pay a service to offer that data, and we give them the correct information. The problem's not on our end!").

I also have a local IND station that has changed their PSIP mapping multiple times over the years. They broadcasted on analog channel #55, and now broadcast on digital channel #51. Over the years, they have re-mapped to 55-1, 55-51, 51-1, 51-55. They're currently back on 51-1. I'm not going to bother contacting them...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

tivoyahoo said:


> And what hasn't been explained and clarified is how Tivo would like us to post in this regard:
> "we're counting on you guys to post any anomalies you might observe"
> 
> A dedicated TCF thread for posts that Tivo will monitor and participate in? with tracking?
> 
> or form submission on the tivo website?
> https://www.tivo.com/lineup.html


It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a dedicated thread anyway, so we don't have a dozen spread out all over the place. It helps us, keeps it focused on correction rather than complaining (at least we can try), and hopefully Tivo uses it. But errors should be reported directly to them too. I'll probably get a thread rolling.


----------



## JoeKustra

BigJimOutlaw said:


> It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a dedicated thread anyway, so we don't have a dozen spread out all over the place. It helps us, keeps it focused on correction rather than complaining (at least we can try), and hopefully Tivo uses it. But errors should be reported directly to them too. I'll probably get a thread rolling.


Maybe this will be ok? http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542752


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

JoeKustra said:


> Maybe this will be ok? http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542752


Saw your post after the fact.  There's so much tendency to thread hijack I figured it would be a good idea to keep it singularly focused on Rovi channel lineup reporting. I added links to talk about the software, the transition itself, the Series 1 retirement, etc.


----------



## tivoyahoo

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Saw your post after the fact.  There's so much tendency to thread hijack I figured it would be a good idea to keep it singularly focused on Rovi channel lineup reporting. I added links to talk about the software, the transition itself, the Series 1 retirement, etc.


:up: looks good. nice details right in post 1. so we now have new threads from a ghost and an outlaw. you can track down the outlaw here...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542760


----------



## JoeKustra

Just some random Rovi news:

Rovi Up on Agreement

Investors have bid up Rovi Corporation (NASDAQ:ROVI) shares to the tune of 7% today after Rovi signed a 10-year patent renewal license agreement with a subsidiary of DISH Network Corp (NASDAQISH). The renewal validates the long-term value of Rovis IP portfolio with traditional and next-generation pay-TV providers and provides Rovi Corporation (NASDAQ:ROVI) with more predictable cash flow for future years. The number of funds in our database with stakes in Rovi inched lower by two quarter-over-quarter to 22 at the end of June.

The stock has been doing quite well since the merger was announced.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Tivo's new leverage. License our data and we won't patent troll you.


----------



## tivoyahoo

Alan Gordon said:


> When submitting a error report, they have a required box for "Name of Cable or Satellite Provider". Does TiVo seriously have more satellite customers than OTA customers, that they can't mention OTA?


I'm sorry sir, but it's a required box, and that's the way the system was designed, so you'll just have to give up ota and go satellite or cable and then you'll be able to submit your issue 

yeah, Tivo has obviously done "tons of testing" in anticipation for the OTA submissions and planned ahead and thought this through - can't even change the wording on the form after this long. Why wasn't ota there from the beginning? or maybe it was and they removed it??

how ironic that bad rovi data falls under a bad copyright umbrella and it still says Tribune Media Services just to make it all the more confusing. so now how do you tell if it's rovi or not? I guess if your program data looks like swiss cheese then that's one way.


----------



## JoeKustra

tivoyahoo said:


> so now how do you tell if it's rovi or not? I guess if your program data looks like swiss cheese then that's one way.


You may start seeing "to be announced" on channels that have content with zap2it. Been there, seen that.


----------



## andyf

tivoyahoo said:


> so now how do you tell if it's rovi or not?


I'm guessing that's what the "*" at the end of the show descriptions or the "*" at the end of your lineup name in System Information is all about.


----------



## HarperVision

I put in a suggestion to TiVo yesterday and it didn't even list the Bolt as one of their DVRs! The newest one was the Roamio.


----------



## tivoyahoo

andyf said:


> I'm guessing that's what the "*" at the end of the show descriptions or the "*" at the end of your lineup name in System Information is all about.


ah, that's the indicator flag - nice sleuthing :up:


----------



## mlcarson

Tivo's ticketing system is one of the worst that I've seen. Once you submit a ticket, you can't see the original ticket in "My Support" any more. This was such a pain in the rear when submitting Tivo Lineup issues since every channel issue was done with a different case number. If a response was ever required, what case number belongs to what? They don't ever seem to look at replies to the ticket and the only reply I usually get is that they closed the ticket but not actually if anything was really done.

Any emails of case acknowledgement also don't quote the original ticket. So from customer perspective, this system sucks. Maybe internally at Tivo, it's great. 


JoeKustra said:


> I'm just guessing, but one of my basic Roamio boxes did receive 1aRC7. It's the one I usually add to the priority list. Another box went right to 1aRC10 and it has never been on the priority list.
> 
> Any guess as to Mini boxes getting updates? Mine are all on 1aRC10 right now.


----------



## Space

JoeKustra said:


> You may start seeing "to be announced" on channels that have content with zap2it. Been there, seen that.


Yes, this is one indicator, however that usually gets changed to correct info before air date.

For instance on 8/27 (5 days from now) the Little League World Series will be broadcast on ABC (12:30pm). zap2it has it, Rovi currently has "To Be Announced" in that block for my affiliate (WABC).

So if you wanted to record this, you would have to wait until it appeared in the guide... Let's see how long it takes...

Another one you'll see is "XXX Programming" where "XXX" is the name of the network, like "Animal Planet Programming" instead of the "To Be Announced" indicator.

Doing a search right now in WMC, I see that there is a 7 hour block from 7am-2pm on 8/27 that is marked as "Animal Planet Programming" and two "Cartoon Network Programming" blocks: 8/27 7:15-8pm, 8/28 7:15-8pm

Also, several "CMT Programming" and "Discovery Channel Programming" blocks starting on 8/28 (anywhere from 1 hour to 8.5 hours long).

To be honest, Gracenote may not have correct programming info for these blocks either, they may just use placeholder programming until they know the real info. But I do know that most of time, Gracenote updates their programming before Rovi does, as in the Little League WS case (although I have seen the opposite occasionally).

As I indicated, most of these will be updated with valid programming data before airing, it is just that Gracenote seems to be able to update this info sooner.


----------



## JWhites

Got bored and spotted this on the support website about the guide update. https://support.tivo.com/SupportPor.../Essential_Summary/Program-Guide-Data-Updates


----------



## JWhites

tivoyahoo said:


> BTW, has anyone who experienced the roamio h.264 problem channels on comcast asked tivo for any type of credit? So while that was going on, I called them and said "I bought a bolt because the roamios aren't fully mpeg4 compatible as promised. Can we move the monthly service over?" "I'm sorry, no" Can you give me some sort of credit for this situation? "No" Any timetable on a fix? "No" What can you do? tivo: what would you like us to do? "fix the roamios so I don't have to buy a bolt" tivo: "we're sorry, and will you be choosing to put lifetime on your new Bolt today sir?" "No, I don't even want the Bolt, can you fix my Roamios? Can you credit my service? you should be giving me back money not getting more from me" Well I guess they finally fixed my roamios cause they want me as a field tester for their guide data. Why did they time the roamio workaround (which they don't call a fix) with the guide data release and not give it to us sooner? too much bother? The cover art just doesn't look good on this picture.


Every time I have an issue that requires me to call TiVo, they're more then happy to give me a free month or two of service for each instance.


----------



## JoeKustra

I think TiVo's servers are working too hard. On one Roamio my Discovery bar, which only has "now playing", is showing programs from 6am. On another Roamio, my call for the guide is 23 hours from the last call, and the VCM connection interval is 25 hours.


----------



## TonyD79

Anybody have any idea when the iPhone app and web guides update?


----------



## JWhites

Jed1 said:


> Check when your next service connection is as Ira Bahr said this will happen in the early morning hours. I suspect when my two Roamios cycle around to the early morning connections I will get the message.
> Check under the copyrights section and about 5 pages down it will say guide data is supplied by Tribune. After the guide change check and see if that changes.
> 
> This will be a total data replacement and will not be tacked on to the end of the TMS data. I guess TiVo is going to do a staggered roll out so there won't by a massive flood of support calls due to the line ups that are going to be out of date.
> I did manage to get my TV Guide data lineup updated recently as the last time it was updated was in October of 2012 when Rovi announced the shutdown of TVGOS.
> I do have about a dozen missing or incorrect channels yet but it is much better than before.


You know what's funny is that when I go to look at the copyright and trademark page on the Premiere and Mini, it still references Gracenote and Tribune, however the Roamio Basic seems to have a completely different version and scrolling through all the pages on it makes no references to cover art and guide data, let alone the provider. All three have the same 20.6.1a.RC10 software version. 
I also did a full "clear program information and to do list" and still no change.


----------



## DevdogAZ

TonyD79 said:


> Anybody have any idea when the iPhone app and web guides update?


I think the iPhone app gets its date from your TiVo box, so it's updated when the box is updated. As for the web guide on TiVo's website, I would expect it's always got the most current information and probably gets updated multiple times a day, as necessary.


----------



## JWhites

mlcarson said:


> Some posters have already been through this with WMC and know what to expect. The only difference this time is that there's a mechanism to submit tickets to Tivo. The number of tickets submitted when this goes live is going to be massive. If you don't want a disruption in service, you try to fix the issues before they affect you. The timing is bad too in that this is coming just before the new TV season.


I agree. The timing is absolutely terrible. They shoulda done this as soon as the tv season ended at the beginning of the Summer.


mlcarson said:


> It took Tivo a week to get cable channels fixed in the guide when there was nothing going on. It took Tivo a month or more to get OTA guide data fixed. How long do you think it's going to take to get things fixed when there's a flood of tickets?


My thought is, if the majority of the tickets are for the same things, many tickets can be closed out at the same time.


----------



## lpwcomp

JWhites said:


> I agree. The timing is absolutely terrible. They shoulda done this as soon as the tv season ended at the beginning of the Summer..


Kinda hard to do until the s/w is ready.

Personally, based on the potential issues _*they*_ documented, I don't think it was ready anyway. But they had a drop dead date.


----------



## JWhites

DevdogAZ said:


> I think the iPhone app gets its date from your TiVo box, so it's updated when the box is updated. As for the web guide on TiVo's website, I would expect it's always got the most current information and probably gets updated multiple times a day, as necessary.


You know what's interesting is that the app on my iPhone and iPad were using the new poster art (as TiVo calls it) and new channel logos before my TiVo's themselves were. Also, in the app, all the Music Choice channel logos are there, but they're still not showing up anywhere on my TiVo's. I'm thinking the guide data may not be pulled from the box itself, although the channel lineup itself does, it appears.


----------



## TonyD79

DevdogAZ said:


> I think the iPhone app gets its date from your TiVo box, so it's updated when the box is updated. As for the web guide on TiVo's website, I would expect it's always got the most current information and probably gets updated multiple times a day, as necessary.


I'm not so sure of that as recently the iPhone app had more days than my bolt. Others reported that as well.


----------



## BobCamp1

cherry ghost said:


> After nothing happened overnight, I forced a connection this morning and got a loading error(S01). The message said to restart the box and then connect. The restart wiped out all guide data. Two forced connections later and I have guide data again.


I suggest that nobody else do that. You will mess up you box. Just let the Tivo do its thing automatically.

This is coming from a (former) S1 owner that had Tivo manually adjust the time zone four times a year.


----------



## Alan Gordon

BobCamp1 said:


> I suggest that nobody else do that. You will mess up you box.


How is that?


----------



## BobCamp1

tivoyahoo said:


> "we updated the software on the S2-S6 boxes for the new data feeds."
> since no one has posted receiving new software on S2-S3 models.
> [/url]


They updated the software but haven't distributed it yet. I'm guessing it's a rollout so not everybody gets it at the same time.

When Tivo says your box is ready, the TCL script Tivo will send to your box will upload the new software, execute an "erase guide data and to do list" command, then restart the box. Upon restart, the box will realize it has no guide data and contact the servers containing the Rovi/Tivo guide data because the new code points to those servers. It will then download the guide data and process the to do list. Rebooting or forcing a connection during this process cannot be a good thing. The Tivo may recover, or you may have to call Tivo and have them send you the TCL script again.

Tivos not yet updated will run the old code which obviously still points to the Gracenote servers.

Tivo will most likely have both servers (Gracenotes and Tivo/Rovi) up until September 16th. That's the same date the S1 will make its last successful daily call for 12-14 days worth of guide data. Then Tivo will shut down the GraceNote servers. Then the S1 coasts to its death on September 30. The other DVRs will have their software updated by that point and won't care.

I'm just guessing based on the tidbits of information floating around, and the fact that that's how I'd probably do it if I were them.


----------



## JWhites

tivoyahoo said:


> thanks Jed1.
> cherry ghost, did that line change to Rovi? Tell me they at least got that right. and that wasn't overlooked too like lots of channels in a rush to push to this out to the masses.
> 
> It's found under Account & System Info => Copyright & Trademarks.
> 
> On a Roamio, on the 6th page (5 clicks of the page down button)
> "Program Guide Data provided by Tribune Media Services" right after a paragraph on Opera and if you get to the Apache page you've gone too far.
> 
> On a Bolt, it's on the 5th page (4 clicks of the page down button):
> "Program Guide Data provided by Gracenote, Inc." and inbetween Opera and Apache
> 
> S3: same location and wording as Roamio minus the opera and apache references.


On a Mini and Premiere, it's 21 pages (20 clicks of the page down button) "Program Guide Data provided by Tribune Media Services" right after the paragraph about MPEG and right before the Open Source Notices Paragraph.


----------



## JWhites

andyf said:


> I'm guessing that's what the "*" at the end of the show descriptions or the "*" at the end of your lineup name in System Information is all about.


Wait what? I've never heard of this before.


----------



## morac

BobCamp1 said:


> They updated the software but haven't distributed it yet. I'm guessing it's a rollout so not everybody gets it at the same time.
> 
> When Tivo says your box is ready, the TCL script Tivo will send to your box will upload the new software, execute an "erase guide data and to do list" command, then restart the box. Upon restart, the box will realize it has no guide data and contact the servers containing the Rovi/Tivo guide data because the new code points to those servers. It will then download the guide data and process the to do list. Rebooting or forcing a connection during this process cannot be a good thing. The Tivo may recover, or you may have to call Tivo and have them send you the TCL script again.
> 
> Tivos not yet updated will run the old code which obviously still points to the Gracenote servers.
> 
> Tivo will most likely have both servers (Gracenotes and Tivo/Rovi) up until September 16th. That's the same date the S1 will make its last successful daily call for 12-14 days worth of guide data. Then Tivo will shut down the GraceNote servers. Then the S1 coasts to its death on September 30. The other DVRs will have their software updated by that point and won't care.
> 
> I'm just guessing based on the tidbits of information floating around, and the fact that that's how I'd probably do it if I were them.


Seems likely that's how it works, though since we already received the software update, it's likely that the new software is capable of connecting to both the GraceNote and RoVi serves and the script (or whatever mechanism TiVo is using) simple flips the "switch" when clearing out the guide and to list data.

If that's the case, then in case anything goes wrong during the guide download process, simple clearing the guide and to do list again would reset things back to the state after the "script" runs. My guess is that the guide setup functionality is pretty robust though as that code has been around for a very long time, so it's unlikely anything short of a disk crash would really cause a problem.


----------



## JoeKustra

morac said:


> Seems likely that's how it works, though since we already received the software update, it's likely that the new software is capable of connecting to both the GraceNote and RoVi serves and the script (or whatever mechanism TiVo is using) simple flips the "switch" when clearing out the guide and to list data.


Save the shift key. It's Gracenote and Rovi.


----------



## andyf

JWhites said:


> Wait what? I've never heard of this before.


Well, we've never had Rovi data before.


----------



## JWhites

andyf said:


> Well, we've never had Rovi data before.


Huh? No I mean I have no idea what is being talked about. An asterisk in guide data and the system info screen? Screenshots please.


----------



## tivoyahoo

JWhites said:


> Huh? No I mean I have no idea what is being talked about. An asterisk in guide data and the system info screen? Screenshots please.


It's an asterisk at the tail end of the program description. so if you hit the info button at the very end is a "*". not that exciting. but that's the marker for Rovi data. maybe somewhere in the copyright section they intended for that to indicate copyright Rovi, but whoops they left it out as it still says TMS/Gracenote under copyrights on program guide data. Probably will take another software update before that says Rovi, so look at program descriptions and system info for the asterisk to tell if you have rovi data. there's also an asterisk after your provider in system info. again, probably not even screenshot worthy. so...

this is the end of the program description.*
xyz cable company, middle of nowhere, usa*


----------



## foghorn2

JoeKustra said:


> Just some random Rovi news:
> 
> Rovi Up on Agreement
> 
> Investors have bid up Rovi Corporation (NASDAQ:ROVI) shares to the tune of 7% today after Rovi signed a 10-year patent renewal license agreement with a subsidiary of DISH Network Corp (NASDAQISH). The renewal validates the long-term value of Rovis IP portfolio with traditional and next-generation pay-TV providers and provides Rovi Corporation (NASDAQ:ROVI) with more predictable cash flow for future years. The number of funds in our database with stakes in Rovi inched lower by two quarter-over-quarter to 22 at the end of June.
> 
> The stock has been doing quite well since the merger was announced.


The new company will not be called Rovi, it will be TIVO, Tivo gets the last laugh and final over Dish.

I predicted this first!

Dish Hopper, now powered by Tivo!!


----------



## BobCamp1

morac said:


> Seems likely that's how it works, though since we already received the software update, it's likely that the new software is capable of connecting to both the GraceNote and RoVi serves and the script (or whatever mechanism TiVo is using) simple flips the "switch" when clearing out the guide and to list data.
> 
> If that's the case, then in case anything goes wrong during the guide download process, simple clearing the guide and to do list again would reset things back to the state after the "script" runs. My guess is that the guide setup functionality is pretty robust though as that code has been around for a very long time, so it's unlikely anything short of a disk crash would really cause a problem.


I don't think everybody has the software update yet. At least S2 and S3 owners don't have it yet. Maybe the rollout is going by model?


----------



## JWhites

That's what I'm thinking too. What models got the upgrade already? Bolt, Roamio, or Premiere?


----------



## DevdogAZ

My Premiere got the new software yesterday. No new guide data yet, though.


----------



## TonyD79

My Bolt and my Minis have the software but as of this morning, no message about guide data.

I am sure they are rolling out somewhat slowly as it it probably a huge hit on the servers.


----------



## ajwees41

JWhites said:


> That's what I'm thinking too. What models got the upgrade already? Bolt, Roamio, or Premiere?


our roamios have the new software no rovi data yet


----------



## JWhites

Yeah my Mini, Premiere and Roamio got the software about a week or so ago, just was wondering if a particular model was getting the guide data first.


----------



## JWhites

TonyD79 said:


> My Bolt and my Minis have the software but as of this morning, no message about guide data.
> 
> I am sure they are rolling out somewhat slowly as it it probably a huge hit on the servers.


Everyone doing force connects probably isn't helping matters, lol


----------



## tivoyahoo

JWhites said:


> Everyone doing force connects probably isn't helping matters, lol


what about all the people doing the opposite and disconnecting their ethernet til this chaos settles down? I'm doing my part to alleviate the server strain and stay in good graces, well at least for 11 days of grace, instead of getting rovified


----------



## TonyD79

tivoyahoo said:


> what about all the people doing the opposite and disconnecting their ethernet til this chaos settles down? I'm doing my part to alleviate the server strain and stay in good graces, well at least for 11 days of grace, instead of getting rovified


I'm being patient but the quicker it hits the better. A pretty quiet week for me recording wise and if it comes in I can deal with it.

I assume it isn't going to be much better in 11 days as most of the problems are going to be with mapping of channels on individual systems.

Meanwhile, I still have one fios box so I backed up my recording schedule on it.


----------



## swyman18

I've been following these Rovi threads with interest and I just want to make sure I understand what I'm up against. I looked through tvguide.com/listings for my cable system and I've confirmed that there are 2 channels (among some others) that I watch frequently that are missing from the lineup. They are:

Investigation Discovery (both SD and HD)
Destination America (SD and HD)

Does this mean that I can expect these channels to disappear from my Tivo channel listing with no way at all to add them back?

If so, does anyone know if it will still be possible to manually tune to those channels, even if there is no guide data for them?


----------



## tivoyahoo

RoamioJeff said:


> But seriously, leaving the ethernet connected should not cause strain. The system is automated, and things are being rolled out gradually.


No soup for me. And I'm good with that. So i guess everyone's not going to join me in a mass protest walkout/disconnect to send a message to tivo that rovi data needs more testing?  they should have done a public beta letting those who wanted to opt in and do so. and thus gotten more of the issues worked out prior to taking it prime time. I've been saying that since last week when I discovered nbc missing in the rovi data right in tivo's backyard.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10968989#post10968989

but I'm just being facetious. not entirely, because yeah, I do have 2 boxes disconnected while the dust settles as a fallback / safety net / and baseline to compare with, i.e. grace vs. rovi. if you're all in on all your boxes with rovi, it's a little harder to see where you were before in good graces.


----------



## DevdogAZ

I'm sure TiVo would have loved to do a public beta and have more time to tackle this issue. If they were in control of the timing, this probably wouldn't be happening for many more months or even more than a year. But the timing of the Rovi offer so close to the expiration of the Gracenote contract didn't leave them much option. I suspect their people have been working non-stop just to get it ready in the form it will go out in the next few weeks. No time for betas and testing and all that stuff they would have liked to do. Gracenote data gets shut off after Sept. 15.


----------



## TonyD79

I hate to be any kind of optimistic in all this doom and gloom but I have been tracking the TV Guide app to see what is there and every day I go there I find another problem I saw fixed. Today they just added the latest two channel additions to my Fios system. There are still some issues but they do seem to be working them. That is all I can ask.


----------



## tivoyahoo

DevdogAZ said:


> But the timing of the Rovi offer so close to the expiration of the Gracenote contract didn't leave them much option.


I'm not up on the entire thread, but negotiating some extension time with grace wasn't an option? and leaving more overlap transition time.



Ira Bahr said:


> We've done a ton of testing but we're counting on you guys to post any anomalies you might observe. Right now, we think the most obvious defect will be generic poster art on certain assets.


but if there plan was to deploy lots of resources to get fixes in quick order once it was rolled out en masse and they can pull it off, then great. but why not just be straight and tell us that instead of saying a ton of testing yielded only art as the big issue? At least there is a support article up now telling us more of the real story on what to expect. and fixes are getting made.


----------



## DevdogAZ

tivoyahoo said:


> I'm not up on the entire thread, but negotiating some extension time with grace wasn't an option? and leaving more overlap transition time.


Given that TiVo is being purchased by Gracenote's chief competitor and would be switching to the competitor's data, I don't think Gracenote wanted or had any incentive to offer an extension. While we don't know the specifics, I'd be shocked if TiVo didn't ask for an extension and I'd be equally shocked if Gracenote would agree to one under the circumstances.


----------



## rainwater

tivoyahoo said:


> I'm not up on the entire thread, but negotiating some extension time with grace wasn't an option? and leaving more overlap transition time.


The extension was built into the contract with Gracenote. Since they weren't negotiating to extend the contract, there was zero chance of another extension.


----------



## JWhites

tivoyahoo said:


> what about all the people doing the opposite and disconnecting their ethernet til this chaos settles down? I'm doing my part to alleviate the server strain and stay in good graces, well at least for 11 days of grace, instead of getting rovified


LoL. (Inserts witty remark here)


----------



## gonzotek

tivoyahoo said:


> I'm not up on the entire thread, but negotiating some extension time with grace wasn't an option? and leaving more overlap transition time.
> 
> but if there plan was to deploy lots of resources to get fixes in quick order once it was rolled out en masse and they can pull it off, then great. but why not just be straight and tell us that instead of saying a ton of testing yielded only art as the big issue? At least there is a support article up now telling us more of the real story on what to expect. and fixes are getting made.


From TiVo's 10-Q SEC Filing on May 31st, 2016:


> *Gracenote has indicated that it is unwilling to provide a short term extension and that any longer term extension would be at a significant increase in cost.*


----------



## tivoyahoo

rainwater said:


> Since they weren't negotiating to extend the contract, there was zero chance of another extension.


that's my point.


----------



## DevdogAZ

tivoyahoo said:


> that's my point.


I'm not sure you're doing a very good job of making your point then. Are you mistakenly thinking that TiVo didn't try to get an extension?


----------



## rainwater

tivoyahoo said:


> that's my point.


TiVo already signed the deal with Rovi. There was nothing to negotiate.


----------



## tivoyahoo

gonzotek said:


> Filing on May 31st, 2016


thanks for that link. so Tivo knew the situation in May. Grace had leverage and either pay a steep price to buy more overlap time, or... time to get get cracking over the summer to have rovi data ready for fall and up to snuff. and they say they did a ton of testing. and they say "TiVo is upgrading the guide data". Ok, the proof is in the pudding. time to deliver on that "upgrade". Time will tell.

I'm opting to buy some grace time instead of letting tivo push it to all my boxes in the early round test batch.


----------



## TonyD79

RoamioJeff said:


> Things will break. Fixes will get done. Life will move on. BTW, anyone remember Y2K?


No. World ended with renegade traffic signals.


----------



## JWhites

TonyD79 said:


> No. World ended with renegade traffic signals.


And anyone left was killed off by Skynet.


----------



## JWhites

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm sure TiVo would have loved to do a public beta and have more time to tackle this issue. If they were in control of the timing, this probably wouldn't be happening for many more months or even more than a year. But the timing of the Rovi offer so close to the expiration of the Gracenote contract didn't leave them much option. I suspect their people have been working non-stop just to get it ready in the form it will go out in the next few weeks. No time for betas and testing and all that stuff they would have liked to do. Gracenote data gets shut off after Sept. 15.


With as many issues people say there are, if they did a beta test they'd never get it out.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

TonyD79 said:


> No. World ended with renegade traffic signals.


In defense of Y2K hysteria, it never materialized as a catastrophe because it was taken seriously by government and industry to mitigate the problems it could cause.


----------



## morac

PSU_Sudzi said:


> In defense of Y2K hysteria, it never materialized as a catastrophe because it was taken seriously by government and industry to mitigate the problems it could cause.


I was working for a company subcontracted by the FAA and I can tell you they took it very seriously and we spent many months working on it. Would planes have fallen out of the sky without the fixes? Probably not, but it could have been similar to the recent Delta outage, only worse.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

morac said:


> I was working for a company subcontracted by the FAA and I can tell you they took it very seriously and we spent many months working on it. Would planes have fallen out of the sky without the fixes? Probably not, but it could have been similar to the recent Delta outage, only worse.


Right, and similar problems all across any industry with computers that would've made life hell for months and months.


----------



## rainwater

tivoyahoo said:


> I'm opting to buy some grace time instead of letting tivo push it to all my boxes in the early round test batch.


There was no grace time to buy. TiVo wasn't signing a new multiyear contract with Gracenote.


----------



## lpwcomp

rainwater said:


> There was no grace time to buy. TiVo wasn't signing a new multiyear contract with Gracenote.


 He's talking about preventing his TiVos from being converted for as long as possible.


----------



## rainwater

lpwcomp said:


> He's talking about preventing his TiVos from being converted for as long as possible.


Oops, I read that wrong. Although blocking an ip address seems going to the extreme. Btw, you need to do more than block the ip address used for the new guide data (it may not even be different). But, you would have to disable the daily connections completely. Otherwise, it will download the script to wipe your data.


----------



## JWhites

Got the message on the Mini, Premiere, and Roamio. Now the painful wait for it to go into effect...


----------



## Space

JWhites said:


> Got the message on the Mini, Premiere, and Roamio. Now the painful wait for it to go into effect...


I think the real pain comes after it goes in to effect... (hopefully not)


----------



## JWhites

As I said in another thread,


> I gotta be honest. The program synopsis for some shows that I'm seeing on tvguide and Xfinity seems much more comprehensively full compared to what I'm currently seeing on the TiVo with Gracenote. Like last nights Goldbergs, Modern Family, and Blackish on ABC, and Shark Tank on CNBC, or this mornings A.R.C.H.I.E. on Showtime or The Dancer Upstairs on Cinemax. A comphensive program synopsis is very important to me.


----------



## Space

That's great! But it's more important to me that I not miss any recordings, and that is where the Rovi data can be a let down.

One thing to look out for is the OAD, I've already seen that people here are having issues with sports programming not having a correct OAD, but another thing to look out for is rescheduled episodes.

When a new episode of a show is put on the schedule, it has an OAD of the date it is scheduled to premiere. If for some reason that episode is pulled from the schedule and rescheduled for a later date, it retains the original OAD.

With WMC, this will cause the show to be seen as a repeat if it is not rescheduled to air within 7 days of the original scheduled date, even though it is new. I believe TiVo will have the same problem (as long as the rescheduled date is not within (I believe) 28 days from the originally scheduled date).

Gracenote data does not have this particular "feature".

I have reported this to Rovi a long time ago, but I have seen no sign of it being fixed.


----------



## swyman18

swyman18 said:


> I've been following these Rovi threads with interest and I just want to make sure I understand what I'm up against. I looked through tvguide.com/listings for my cable system and I've confirmed that there are 2 channels (among some others) that I watch frequently that are missing from the lineup. They are:
> 
> Investigation Discovery (both SD and HD)
> Destination America (SD and HD)
> 
> Does this mean that I can expect these channels to disappear from my Tivo channel listing with no way at all to add them back?
> 
> If so, does anyone know if it will still be possible to manually tune to those channels, even if there is no guide data for them?


Well how about that, I took another look today at tvguide.com/listings and the missing channels above are now in the lineup (along with several other corrections). Looks like someone is actively scrubbing the lineups.


----------



## TonyD79

swyman18 said:


> Well how about that, I took another look today at tvguide.com/listings and the missing channels above are now in the lineup (along with several other corrections). Looks like someone is actively scrubbing the lineups.


I am seeing the same. Almost every day. I went through the TVG app to compare with TiVo and made a list. I was able to cross about 2/3 of them off the list the last couple days.

The ones that are still wrong are channels I never watch.


----------



## aaronwt

lpwcomp said:


> He's talking about preventing his TiVos from being converted for as long as possible.


You would think you would want the opposite? I wouldn't want my TiVos going through this after the new TV season starts. The Sooner it goes through the change the better.


----------



## lpwcomp

aaronwt said:


> You would think you would want the opposite? I wouldn't want my TiVos going through this after the new TV season starts. The Sooner it goes through the change the better.


While I agree that delaying the inevitable is usually not a good idea, I think he's hoping that some of the problems will be fixed before his TiVos are converted. My post was just pointing out that the grace period to which he was referring was a personal one, not whether or not TiVo could have gotten more time to do the conversion.


----------



## HarperVision

aaronwt said:


> ....... The Sooner it goes through the change the better.


I have that feeling with my wife too!


----------



## TonyD79

HarperVision said:


> I have that feeling with my wife too!


Oh no you didn.


----------



## HarperVision

Yeah...I did.


----------



## JWhites

Space said:


> I think the real pain comes after it goes in to effect... (hopefully not)


Well I'm done. Love the new guide data, much more comprehensive on many shows, very nice.


----------



## JWhites

HarperVision said:


> Yeah...I did.


And what time will you be checking into the doghouse tonight?


----------



## rainwater

JWhites said:


> Well I'm done. Love the new guide data, much more comprehensive on many shows, very nice.


The descriptions are better for many shows. However, the issue is many, many shows have wrong episode numbers, original air dates, etc. This type of information is not obvious at first, but it will be when your OnePasses don't record.


----------



## JWhites

I have been thinking, perhaps TiVo was waiting for the Olympics to be over before they flipped the switch?


----------



## JWhites

rainwater said:


> The descriptions are better for many shows. However, the issue is many, many shows have wrong episode numbers, original air dates, etc. This type of information is not obvious at first, but it will be when your OnePasses don't record.


I see.  Well I'm optimistic that things will only improve from here. :up:


----------



## HarperVision

JWhites said:


> And what time will you be checking into the doghouse tonight?


Well, first off she doesn't read TCF, and second she leaves for two weeks to go help my daughter get settled at college tomorrow, so I'm all clear! 

But alas, I was thrown in with the dogs last night for another issue that my mouth decided to toss out there before my brain decided to kick in!


----------



## tarheelblue32

rainwater said:


> The descriptions are better for many shows. However, the issue is many, many shows have wrong episode numbers, original air dates, etc. This type of information is not obvious at first, but it will be when your OnePasses don't record.


It baffles me how a data company like Rovi could have so much incorrect data in their database.


----------



## TonyD79

tarheelblue32 said:


> It baffles me how a data company like Rovi could have so much incorrect data in their database.


Ever deal with oracle? They often mess up their database of customers.


----------



## convergent

HarperVision said:


> But alas, I was thrown in with the dogs last night for another issue that my mouth decided to toss out there before my brain decided to kick in!


My wife and I were talking last night with a long time friend of hers. My wife was telling a story and something had happened she wanted to say something about, and she was having the two little guys in her head saying "say it", "no don't say it". I blurt out that I thought the little guy that says "don't say it" she had tied up and duct taped in the corner of her head so he couldn't talk. Her friend looks at me and says, the same could be said about you right now!


----------



## JWhites

HarperVision said:


> Well, first off she doesn't read TCF, and second she leaves for two weeks to go help my daughter get settled at college tomorrow, so I'm all clear!
> 
> But alas, I was thrown in with the dogs last night for another issue that my mouth decided to toss out there before my brain decided to kick in!


----------



## Space

tarheelblue32 said:


> It baffles me how a data company like Rovi could have so much incorrect data in their database.


I can only guess that they have other priorities. I assume they have the lesser cost product (the reason why Microsoft migrated to them last year), and therefore don't have the same resources to keep things working as well as Gracenote does.

Rovi has been aware of these issues for at least a year (when the WMC migration took place). It's like Déjà vu here only on a larger scale.

We can only hope that the much larger user base of TiVo users will finally make them realize that they have a problem.


----------



## aaronwt

I definitely have my ROamio Pro and two Bolts changed over now. The only thing I've thing major I've noticed is a bunch of recordings for things that wouldn't normally record. But otherwise I'm still getting teh recordings I'm supposed to. And of course I had to go into each box and uncheck the extra channels that became checked.


----------



## astrohip

aaronwt said:


> I definitely have my ROamio Pro and two Bolts changed over now. The only thing I've thing major I've noticed is a bunch of recordings for things that wouldn't normally record. But otherwise I'm still getting teh recordings I'm supposed to. And of course I had to go into each box and uncheck the extra channels that became checked.


Pretty much the same. Added back lots of channels. Recording a few shows it shouldn't, primarily Wishlist based. Neither is a big deal.

But everything that SHOULD record is recording. And the descriptions are much more elaborate.

So far, much ado about nothing. I'm sure for those who have significant issues, it is much ado. But anecdotally, it seems most of us are ok with it.

Aside: I tried to explain to my wife why this was a big deal. She asked me if all my shows were still recording. When I told her they were, she said "so what's the big deal. it's just TV".

It's just TV? Are you insane woman?


----------



## JoeKustra

Question: has the change always happened overnight? In other words, does the lack of a guide in the morning indicate the change has started. Most posts seem to point that way. I do record late night shows, but that's over by 00:35 EDT. Thanks.


----------



## schatham

JoeKustra said:


> Question: has the change always happened overnight? In other words, does the lack of a guide in the morning indicate the change has started. Most posts seem to point that way. I do record late night shows, but that's over by 00:35 EDT. Thanks.


Yes, unless the user intervenes. If you see no guide data Tivo schedules the update 15 minutes after removing the old data. Then like a new Tivo it takes a few hours to index.

A way to tell if the update is coming is to check the service update. When you see a failed SO1 error your Tivo will update on the next scheduled time. At this point you could do a restart on your own, then another service connection. This only applies if you received the update last week.


----------



## morac

Just a warning, but the guide transition can have a number of side effects:

1. Recordings may be deleted if the number of recordings in a folder exceeds the keep at most limit, even if some of those recordings were manual or the keep until date was changed. I lost 15 recordings because of this. 

2. Recordings that used to be suggestions, but aren't anymore because the user changed the keep until date will be moved back into the suggestions folder.

3. Wish Lists appear to be broken. Old wish lists won't work. New wish lists appear to work, but also appear to continue to try to record after auto-record has been turned off and/or the wish list was deleted.


----------



## JoeKustra

schatham said:


> Yes, unless the user intervenes. If you see no guide data Tivo schedules the update 15 minutes after removing the old data. Then like a new Tivo it takes a few hours to index.
> 
> A way to tell if the update is coming is to check the service update. When you see a failed SO1 error your Tivo will update on the next scheduled time. At this point you could do a restart on your own, then another service connection. This only applies if you received the update last week.





morac said:


> Just a warning, but the guide transition can have a number of side effects:


Thanks. I tend to let nature take its course, but with two Roamio, two Premiere and three Mini boxes I expect it to be a busy day.


----------



## schatham

JoeKustra said:


> Thanks. I tend to let nature take its course, but with two Roamio, two Premiere and three Mini boxes I expect it to be a busy day.


Don't worry about the mini's. My mini worked with the new guide immediately after the Roamio updated.


----------



## Alan Gordon

I'm still waiting on the Rovi data.


----------



## JoeKustra

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm still waiting on the Rovi data.


Since I have nothing scheduled after Tuesday, I'm sure it will happen before then.


----------



## randian

Space said:


> Rovi has been aware of these issues for at least a year (when the WMC migration took place). It's like Déjà vu here only on a larger scale.
> 
> We can only hope that the much larger user base of TiVo users will finally make them realize that they have a problem.


A vain hope in my experience. If somebody hasn't fixed something in a year, it's firm evidence they don't care and it will never be fixed.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

CoxInPHX said:


> This brings up an interesting thought. Arris purchased Moxi for the UI. But, I don't believe Arris ever updated the original Moxi UI much, if any. The Data Sheet is dated June 2011.
> 
> Now Arris has also purchased Pace, which uses TiVo software for it's hardware for certain MSOs. It makes me wonder if Arris and TiVo will become closer partners.


Interesting. I bought the Moxi DVR in 2009 over a TiVo XL (I think that was the model then) as their were no monthly fees and the UI was better then. I loved that thing and only dumped it last year before buying a Roamio.


----------



## cogx

Late to the game here, but looking at the tvguide.com listings for my cable lineup, not completely accurate. I had long ago learned to play the submit lineup errors game to Zap2it, SchedulesDirect.org and TiVo support, but presumably now we just report errors to TiVo support? But, I assume I now have to wait to get the new, error-riddled guide data, before I can do anything, there is no way to proactively get this fixed ahead of time? I'm too old for this nonsense.


----------



## tarheelblue32

randian said:


> A vain hope in my experience. If somebody hasn't fixed something in a year, it's firm evidence they don't care and it will never be fixed.


Not necessarily. TiVo has often taken in excess of a year to fix bugs or add features that were promised. Better late than never I suppose. Perhaps TiVo's culture of eventually getting around to fixing longstanding problems will rub off on Rovi.


----------



## velouria28

cogx said:


> Late to the game here, but looking at the tvguide.com listings for my cable lineup, not completely accurate. I had long ago learned to play the submit lineup errors game to Zap2it, SchedulesDirect.org and TiVo support, but presumably now we just report errors to TiVo support? But, I assume I now have to wait to get the new, error-riddled guide data, before I can do anything, there is no way to proactively get this fixed ahead of time? I'm too old for this nonsense.


You might get lucky like I did. TVGuide has a bunch of channels on the wrong feed for my cable provider (West when they should be East) but the Rovi guide on the Tivo is completely correct.


----------



## JWhites

Jed1 said:


> Comcast previous contract with Rovi/Gemstar expired in 2014. Back in 2004 Gemstar was short on cash so they made a sweetheart deal with Comcast to offer guide data at a capped 10 cents per sub for 10 years. The only contingency was Comcast would have to pay 20 million in cash. Of course Comcast jumped on it because it was for a fixed number of subs. Of course Comcast increase its subscriber count and did not have to pay Rovi/Gemstar for the additional subs.
> 
> As far as I know Comcast does use Rovi guide data and also the older Rovi/Gemstar IPG's the IGuide and Passport Echo Guides. Of course the sweetheart deal has ended and had to be renegotiated.
> Comcast has developed their own guide for the X1 but it looks a lot like Rovi/Gemstars Total Guide. I do believe there is a lawsuit about this that Rovi has filed as Comcast is violating its patents.


Just to add, I'm also using a Comcast supplied X1, and the program descriptions and cover art match exactly what I'm now seeing on Rovi supplied TiVo program information. Furthermore, in looking in the mini biographies of some celebrities via the X1, they're authored by Rovi employees. I think it can be definitively said that Rovi supplies Comcast.


----------



## JWhites

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Interesting. I bought the Moxi DVR in 2009 over a TiVo XL (I think that was the model then) as their were no monthly fees and the UI was better then. I loved that thing and only dumped it last year before buying a Roamio.


Yeah, I did the exact same thing. To be honest, I still prefer the Moxi over the TiVo. I still have both the two tuner DVR and it's Mate sitting safely in a box with recordings on it. I cried when Moxi was sold to Arris, a company at the time was unknown to me. I only switched to TiVo because they stopped selling them, otherwise I woulda bought more. Best DVR ever.


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## JoeKustra

In preparation for the change I looked at tvguide.com for some indication of differences. I first found out my headend is not listed. The headend that is listed has been discontinued for 2 years or more. I also see that tvguide.com doesn't have an icon for "finale" or "premier". They just list it as new, and you need to check the description which doesn't have season or episode numbers. I see it has a lot of ads but is easier to navigate. The zap2it guide goes out to 9/12, the tvguide goes out to 9/11 I think, since it stops showing the date after 9/10. But all the channels look ok.

There does seem to be more OTA problems than cable problems. This is not unexpected since Rovi does supply guides to mostly cable companies and there's going to be some growing pains to fix all the content and channels.


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## mrizzo80

Does Gracenote provide Netflix metadata to TiVo as well or does TiVo maintain that on their own? If Gracenote provides it, how is Rovi's metatdata for Netflix and other OTT services? TiVo search has been unaware that _30 for 30_ is available on Netflix for a really long time; I'm wondering if this type of situation will improve with Rovi. TiVo also has issues with all sorts of PBS-based Amazon Prime content not showing up.


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## mangochutney

Wow, this Rovi data absolutely sucks. I mean....it's like it's some grade 12 homework that the dog ate.


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## Space

JoeKustra said:


> ...
> I also see that tvguide.com doesn't have an icon for "finale" or "premier". They just list it as new, and you need to check the description which doesn't have season or episode numbers.
> ...


When WMC first transitioned from Gracenote to Rovi, the "Premiere" and "Finale" indicators went missing. After some complaints, they re-appeared, however only for broadcast networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox). Those indicators for all other channels have never returned. I don't know if this is due to Rovi not having the info, or some problem with Microsoft's importing of the data.


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## zerdian1

My TV Guide also stops in the middle of 9/11.
It was at 9/10 for last 2 days.
My new notice from TiVo is that TV guide will be updated next 24 hours. 
The new TV guide data will takes 2 to 3 hours to download.



joekustra said:


> in preparation for the change i looked at tvguide.com for some indication of differences. I first found out my headend is not listed. The headend that is listed has been discontinued for 2 years or more. I also see that tvguide.com doesn't have an icon for "finale" or "premier". They just list it as new, and you need to check the description which doesn't have season or episode numbers. I see it has a lot of ads but is easier to navigate. The zap2it guide goes out to 9/12, the tvguide goes out to 9/11 i think, since it stops showing the date after 9/10. But all the channels look ok.
> 
> There does seem to be more ota problems than cable problems. This is not unexpected since rovi does supply guides to mostly cable companies and there's going to be some growing pains to fix all the content and channels.


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## cogx

FYI, below is the 'TiVo Program Guide Data Upgrade' thread that has more current information:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542872


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## oscarfish

For the last week+, I have not been able to log into my tivo.com account except by resetting the password. I get the temporary password and use that to set a new password. At that point, I am logged into tivo.com. Then about a half an hour later, that new password no longer works.

I submitted the issue to tivo support. As an experiment they tried resetting the password from their end. But that didn't work.

The email tivo support send me notifying me what they intended to do is one way. I can't respond to it. The only way to respond to tell them that their experiment didn't work is to reset my password again so I can log in. Or call. But I'm a little afraid to try the support line since it must be totally overwhelmed.

I wish I knew if this is a known problem to tivo that they are working on or if it's somehow unique to me. With all the people having trouble with Tivo Desktop being unable to link to their account I can't help but think that it's one giant problem. But I haven't read about any of those people not being able to log into their tivo.com account. In fact I've read that many can log into tivo.com. So that brings me right back to it's a problem with my account so there's no point just being patient.


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## lpwcomp

oscarfish said:


> For the last week+, I have not been able to log into my tivo.com account except by resetting the password. I get the temporary password and use that to set a new password. At that point, I am logged into tivo.com. Then about a half an hour later, that new password no longer works.
> 
> I submitted the issue to tivo support. As an experiment they tried resetting the password from their end. But that didn't work.
> 
> The email tivo support send me notifying me what they intended to do is one way. I can't respond to it. The only way to respond to tell them that their experiment didn't work is to reset my password again so I can log in. Or call. But I'm a little afraid to try the support line since it must be totally overwhelmed.
> 
> I wish I knew if this is a known problem to tivo that they are working on or if it's somehow unique to me. With all the people having trouble with Tivo Desktop being unable to link to their account I can't help but think that it's one giant problem. But I haven't read about any of those people not being able to log into their tivo.com account. In fact I've read that many can log into tivo.com. So that brings me right back to it's a problem with my account so there's no point just being patient.


Probably related to whatever they fracked up that has killed pushes.


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