# Homeland - Season 5 Thread



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Season 5 kicked off last night on Showtime, jumping right back into the story.

So far, based mostly in Berlin with Carey working for some private sector group called "The Foundation" with questionable intent. Saul and Quinn are still with the CIA. Saul and Carey's relationship seems to have cooled. Quinn is badass as usual.

The story is a bit refreshed with ISIS/ISIL references, and leaking of sensitive docs stolen via a computer security breach.

I'm in. 

<<May Contain Spoliers to Seasons 1-2-3-4>>


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

Ack. I have not watched Season 4 yet


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

That's her/Brody's kid, not the new boyfriend's kid. Right?

Were we supposed to recognize the CIA Berlin Bureau chief?


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## efilippi (Jul 24, 2001)

I would say Yes and No.

Why should we know the Berlin bureau chief?

I did like the new approach and sure liked Quinn and his interaction with the 'suits'.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

aindik said:


> That's her/Brody's kid, not the new boyfriend's kid. Right?
> 
> Were we supposed to recognize the CIA Berlin Bureau chief?


Spoilerized for the sake of the person (Maui) who just announced that he hasn't yet watched Season 4 _(get to it, man!)_:


Spoiler



Her hubby was a traitor at the end of last season, which led directly to the executions of embassy staffers.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

getreal said:


> Spoilerized for the sake of the person (Maui) who just announced that he hasn't yet watched Season 4 _(get to it, man!)_:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Wrong character. That was Laila Robins as Martha Boyd; the new character is Miranda Otto as Allison Carr. We haven't seen her before, although obviously Carrie has.

I'm not sure how anybody could ever mistake Miranda Otto for Laila Robins!

(Unspoilered upon realizing this is the Season 5 thread.)


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

efilippi said:


> I would say Yes and No.
> 
> Why should we know the Berlin bureau chief?
> 
> I did like the new approach and sure liked Quinn and his interaction with the 'suits'.


I didn't recognize her but the way they introduced her looked like a re-introduction instead of an introduction.


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## efilippi (Jul 24, 2001)

I hate these spoiler discussions but if we have to spoilerize anything that happens in Season 5 because there may be someone on the planet who hasn't yet seen Season 4, then why bother even having a thread? If one points out that Brody isn't here because he is dead, is that spoiler worthy?

I hope not.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

efilippi said:


> If one points out that Brody isn't here because he is dead, is that spoiler worthy?


Wait, What?


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

I vote this thread to permit spoilers to previous seasons. OK?

Caution inserted into first post.


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## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

aindik said:


> That's her/Brody's kid, not the new boyfriend's kid. Right?


Right-little Frannie-and OMG is she cuuuute!

But Carrie sure has a "type!"


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Saul saying that Carrie cost him being CIA Director? Huh?
Saul was acting CIA director, and is damaged by the video made while he was a hostage, right? What did Carrie have to do with that?

The Hezbollah guy lost a kid in the US bombing of the madrassa that killed Abu Nidal's kid, Issa, and made Brody turn. Wild.

How izzit that Carries' rich boss is publishing a magazine with the journalist right outside his office ready to reveal the CAI secrets? 

And Carrie didn't mention to Saul or the Embassy head that the secret files were out and about to be published. That's gonna sting.

Quinn is teh cool. "You've got two minutes, maybe less because your timer is crap."


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MikeAndrews said:


> Saul saying that CArrie cost him being CIA Director? Huh?
> Saul was acting CIA director, and is damaged by the video made while he was a hostage, right? What did Carrie have to do with that?


Remember that Saul disappointed Carrie at the end of last season, by allying with Adal, who in turn made a deal with Haqqani to get the tape (and a promise not to release any copies) of Saul in captivity. Presumably Adal promised Haqqani not to come after him.

During the 2 years between Carrie seeing Saul with Adal at the end of last season and the beginning of this season, I'm guessing that Carrie somehow wrote or said something that "tanked Saul's bid" for the directorship of the CIA.

As for the journalist (Laura Sutton), I assume she is working at the same Foundation that Carrie is. This Foundation seems to be at odds with the intelligence agencies.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Remember that Saul disappointed Carrie at the end of last season, by allying with Adal, who in turn made a deal with Haqqani to get the tape (and a promise not to release any copies) of Saul in captivity. Presumably Adal promised Haqqani not to come after him.
> 
> During the 2 years between Carrie seeing Saul with Adal at the end of last season and the beginning of this season, I'm guessing that Carrie somehow wrote or said something that "tanked Saul's bid" for the directorship of the CIA.


OK, I was gonna ask what happened with the Adal/Haqqani betrayal. I didn't pick up on that the deal was for the Saul tape. I had the impression it was for nefarious CIA conspiracy / strange alliance reasons.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Wrong character. That was Laila Robins as Martha Boyd; the new character is Miranda Otto as Allison Carr. We haven't seen her before, although obviously Carrie has.
> 
> I'm not sure how anybody could ever mistake Miranda Otto for Laila Robins!
> 
> (Unspoilered upon realizing this is the Season 5 thread.)


We have seen her before. Quinn visited her in the penultimate episode last season, etc.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Good first episode. Started right in with it. Quinn is my favorite character by far. Glad Dar is still in the show, I like the character (and actor).


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I also thought it was a good first episode and I like how they have been re-inventing themselves each season. Liking that is it set in Berlin so far.

Showtime did a 15 minute catch up premiere preview that I thought I wish more shows would do. Basically broke down what happened in each season.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> We have seen her before. Quinn visited her in the penultimate episode last season, etc.


Huh. I don't remember her...I checked IMDb, and they only list her for this season.

Nevertheless, she's not Laila Robbins, whom getreal was thinking of (with the traitorous husband).


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Huh. I don't remember her...I checked IMDb, and they only list her for this season.
> 
> Nevertheless, she's not Laila Robbins, whom getreal was thinking of (with the traitorous husband).


We must be looking at different pages on IMDB then. I remembered her, but had to go there to confirm that it was the same actress.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0396125/?ref_=tt_cl_t9


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> We must be looking at different pages on IMDB then. I remembered her, but had to go there to confirm that it was the same actress.
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0396125/?ref_=tt_cl_t9


Different actor, different character.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Huh. I don't remember her...I checked IMDb, and they only list her for this season.
> 
> Nevertheless, she's not Laila Robbins, whom getreal was thinking of (with the traitorous husband).


I admit that I was mistaken, but I also had not reviewed S4 prior to catching this new Season. I am impressed by the level of detail some of you can recall from previous seasons.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

getreal said:


> I admit that I was mistaken, but I also had not reviewed S4 prior to catching this new Season. I am impressed by the level of detail some of you can recall from previous seasons.


To be fair, I already happened to know who both Laila Robbins and Miranda Otto were, so for me there's no mistaking them.

I'm not familiar with Nina Hoss, but she is neither Miranda Otto nor playing the same character last season (Astrid) that Miranda plays this season (Allison Carr). What memory I have is supplemented by IMDb!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the German intelligence agent.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Claire Danes was on Charlie Rose.



Spoiler



She says that Carrie finds out that she's a target of the baddies and has to figure out why and Carrie learns empathy for "the bad guys."

I imagine that she hears more like the the Hezbollah guy whose kid was killed in the CIA Abu Nazir bombing.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Abu Nazir.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

That guy said Carrie killed his son, and she has a daughter right there with who guarding her? It seems crazy to me to have a child in the middle of this.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> That guy said Carrie killed his son, and she has a daughter right there with who guarding her? It seems crazy to me to have a child in the middle of this.


There wasn't a "this" for the 2-3 years preceding the events of this episode. She had a humdrum life in Berlin. Or so we are to assume.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

So I am following what the CIA is doing (although Quinn and Saul seem to have gone rogue). Find and kill islamist extremists operating in Germany.

But am I supposed to have a clue what the During foundation is doing? Because I don't. He's a billionaire philanthropist who for some reason wants to support Syrian refugee camps? Why? And why on earth would it be necessary to go to the camp to donate $10M? A photo op doesn't seem worth it to me, and a billionaire would be a juicy hostage. Plus, if a billionaire did do such a stupid thing, they would come with a small army, not Carrie and some other dude.

And so Carrie isn't safe in Lebanon? Well, hon, GTFO.


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## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> So I am following what the CIA is doing (although Quinn and Saul seem to have gone rogue). Find and kill islamist extremists operating in Germany.
> 
> But am I supposed to have a clue what the During foundation is doing? Because I don't. He's a billionaire philanthropist who for some reason wants to support Syrian refugee camps? Why? And why on earth would it be necessary to go to the camp to donate $10M? A photo op doesn't seem worth it to me, and a billionaire would be a juicy hostage. Plus, if a billionaire did do such a stupid thing, they would come with a small army, not Carrie and some other dude.
> 
> And so Carrie isn't safe in Lebanon? Well, hon, GTFO.


1) We don't know yet what the During Foundation is doing, particularly with respect to government intelligence agencies.

2) The During family made its money during WWII. A character (forgot which one) speculated that During makes charitable donations as a karma-building atonement for that WWII fortune.

3) They did bring a small army. "Some other dude" was in constant communication with them during the photo op.

4) The impression I'm getting is that Carrie is not safe anywhere, including North America and Western Europe.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Yes - evidently she's Quinn's next hit. Who ordered that up, I wonder?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Yes - evidently she's Quinn's next hit. Who ordered that up, I wonder?


My money is on Allison Carr, with Dar Adal a distant second. If it is not one of those two, I will be disappointed, since it would require another mole deep in the CIA. Not many people would know enough about that assassination operation to make the drop like that.

I wonder if Allison is actually a traitor. She seems a strange mix of incompetent and yet extremely motivated to hold on to her position.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

During indicated that the deal for aid for the refugees couldn't happen unless he appeared in person, so that's allegedly why he went there.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

he also mentioned he used the opportunity to conduct some business while he was in the area.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Yes - evidently she's Quinn's next hit. Who ordered that up, I wonder?


How could it be anybody other than Saul? He was the one who set up the drop arrangements and had the conversation with Quinn that he was on his own and would have no CIA support. Everything that Saul and Quinn are doing is off book.

Saul is under the impression that Carrie has betrayed him because of the picture the station chief showed him where Carrie was meeting with the reporter, the same day that the CIA/Germany agreement was hacked/exposed. He's, wrongfully, assuming Carrie was behind the hacking and/or passing the info on to the reporter.


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## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

TampaThunder said:


> How could it be anybody other than Saul? He was the one who set up the drop arrangements and had the conversation with Quinn that he was on his own and would have no CIA support. Everything that Saul and Quinn are doing is off book.
> 
> Saul is under the impression that Carrie has betrayed him because of the picture the station chief showed him where Carrie was meeting with the reporter, the same day that the CIA/Germany agreement was hacked/exposed. He's, wrongfully, assuming Carrie was behind the hacking and/or passing the info on to the reporter.


Dar Adal could be pulling the strings behind Saul. I'm still not convinced, however, that Saul would directly order a hit on Carrie, even if he is convinced she is responsible for the hack. That's why I'm thinking if anyone ordered the Carrie hit it was Dar Adal. They've never liked each other, anyway.

The bigger question for me is why anyone in the CIA who knows Carrie and Quinn's history would expect him to follow through.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

TampaThunder said:


> How could it be anybody other than Saul? He was the one who set up the drop arrangements and had the conversation with Quinn that he was on his own and would have no CIA support. Everything that Saul and Quinn are doing is off book.


this is what i thought, too.



frombhto323 said:


> The bigger question for me is why anyone in the CIA who knows Carrie and Quinn's history would expect him to follow through.


he was in love with carrie, but saying their relationship is complicated is an understatement. i'm looking forward to story of where his head is at unfolds, and carrie's reaction when she finds out.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

frombhto323 said:


> The bigger question for me is why anyone in the CIA who knows Carrie and Quinn's history would expect him to follow through.


It is definitely not Saul. Saul does not bundle up like that when he goes to make the drop. Neither does Quinn. Clearly, whoever it was did not want to be recognized.

As for expecting Quinn to kill Carrie, that is why Allison Carr is my top choice. She probably does not know how close Quinn and Carrie were. While Dar Adal probably does know (at least to some extent).


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## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

NorthAlabama said:


> ... he was in love with carrie, but saying their relationship is complicated is an understatement. i'm looking forward to story of where his head is at unfolds, and carrie's reaction when she finds out.


Perhaps, but why take that chance knowing it could easily backfire?


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

frombhto323 said:


> Perhaps, but why take that chance knowing it could easily backfire?


other than the working relationship, are these feelings known by anyone else in the agency?


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Are we absolutely sure the next hit target is Carrie? Yes, I saw the expression on Quinn's face when he saw the picture of his next target but unless I missed something we didn't actually see her picture. And yes the guy she bribed with the $40K for safe passage told her she was not safe but that could be for many reasons.

So did I miss something that confirms that the next target is Carrie?

Gerry


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Gerryex said:


> Are we absolutely sure the next hit target is Carrie? Yes, I saw the expression on Quinn's face when he saw the picture of his next target but unless I missed something we didn't actually see her picture. And yes the guy she bribed with the $40K for safe passage told her she was not safe but that could be for many reasons.
> 
> So did I miss something that confirms that the next target is Carrie?
> 
> Gerry


There wasn't any picture. Just a coded message that when decoded spelled Mathison.


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

TampaThunder said:


> There wasn't any picture. Just a coded message that when decoded spelled Mathison.


Oh! I missed that. I did see him decode the message but didn't notice that it said Mathison!

Thanks,
Gerry


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

To be fair, he only got as far as Mathiso. So it could have been Mathisoflarg.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

TampaThunder said:


> How could it be anybody other than Saul? He was the one who set up the drop arrangements and had the conversation with Quinn that he was on his own and would have no CIA support. Everything that Saul and Quinn are doing is off book.
> 
> Saul is under the impression that Carrie has betrayed him because of the picture the station chief showed him where Carrie was meeting with the reporter, the same day that the CIA/Germany agreement was hacked/exposed. He's, wrongfully, assuming Carrie was behind the hacking and/or passing the info on to the reporter.


The picture with the reporter that she works in the same office as? How damning!


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> The picture with the reporter that she works in the same office as? How damning!


Not sure why the sarcasm but go back and watch the scenes again. Saul meets Carrie in the lobby and it's apparent there is a ton of bad feelings between the two. Later, the station chief shows Saul the picture of Carrie and the reporter meeting on the same day as the data leak and strongly implies that Carrie was involved in the breach in some way. Shortly thereafter Saul does his dance with Quinn with his red handkerchief in his suit and Quinn knows that there's a name in his postal box. Surprise! It's Carrie's.

Not that much of a leap to think that Saul feels Carrie has turned and now should be eliminated. She's abandoned him and her country. She's been out of the organization for two plus years.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TampaThunder said:


> Not sure why the sarcasm but go back and watch the scenes again.


I'd say you are the one who needs to rewatch. Carrie and the journalist both work with the During Foundation. It is reasonable to assume that they see each other and exchange a few words quite frequently.

Even if you think Saul could ever contemplate assassinating Carrie (which I cannot see ever happening), it would not make sense for him to do it without first trying to interrogate her. And Saul would not use Quinn to kill her, since he surely knows how close the two of them were. No way Saul gave the order.


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## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

john4200 said:


> I'd say you are the one who needs to rewatch. Carrie and the journalist both work with the During Foundation. It is reasonable to assume that they see each other and exchange a few words quite frequently.
> 
> Even if you think Saul could ever contemplate assassinating Carrie (which I cannot see ever happening), it would not make sense for him to do it without first trying to interrogate her. And Saul would not use Quinn to kill her, since he surely knows how close the two of them were. No way Saul gave the order.


Yes, the pic proves nothing.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> To be fair, he only got as far as Mathiso. So it could have been Mathisoflarg.


That's totally absurd.

They're in Germany, not Finland.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

john4200 said:


> I'd say you are the one who needs to rewatch. Carrie and the journalist both work with the During Foundation. It is reasonable to assume that they see each other and exchange a few words quite frequently.
> 
> Even if you think Saul could ever contemplate assassinating Carrie (which I cannot see ever happening), it would not make sense for him to do it without first trying to interrogate her. And Saul would not use Quinn to kill her, since he surely knows how close the two of them were. No way Saul gave the order.


And doesn't Carrie's boyfriend (or is it husband?) also work at During?

And this was a show that had Saul committing Carrie to a CIA pysch ward as part of an elaborate play (the details of which I forget), so I'm assuming his current public anger is also some sort of scam.

But I'm not sure why CIA Ginger would want to off Carrie either. So maybe this is a special message to Quinn to reengage Carrie.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

TampaThunder said:


> Later, the station chief shows Saul the picture of Carrie and the reporter meeting on the same day as the data leak and strongly implies that Carrie was involved in the breach in some way.


Not exactly. She actually said she couldn't really see Carrie betraying them, but that the photos make it look bad.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Oops.

Wonder how much a translator costs?


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## HobokenSkier (Oct 14, 2015)

john4200 said:


> It is definitely not Saul. Saul does not bundle up like that when he goes to make the drop. Neither does Quinn. Clearly, whoever it was did not want to be recognized.
> 
> As for expecting Quinn to kill Carrie, that is why Allison Carr is my top choice. She probably does not know how close Quinn and Carrie were. While Dar Adal probably does know (at least to some extent).


Of course Dar does.

Remember when Carrie confronts Dar at his home. The beautiful Frank Lloyd Wright inspired space.

When she does not get what she wants she asays she is going to talk to Saul. Dar invites her in and onto the back deck where Saul and Dar are drinking coffee together.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Oops.
> 
> Wonder how much a translator costs?


I've never thought of Homeland as blatantly racist, but I also can kind of, sort of see their point. It's nowhere near as bad as 24 or other shows like it, though. And it does seem like they are trying to be somewhat realistic with the basic setup (even if the actual plot developments over the years have been utterly preposterous)


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Stephen_Harman said:


> Of course Dar does.
> 
> Remember when Carrie confronts Dar at his home. The beautiful Frank Lloyd Wright inspired space.
> 
> When she does not get what she wants she asays she is going to talk to Saul. Dar invites her in and onto the back deck where Saul and Dar are drinking coffee together.


There seems to be a non sequitur here. What does that have to do with Dar knowing how close Quinn and Carrie are?


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

TAsunder said:


> I've never thought of Homeland as blatantly racist...


it's a tv show, it's not racist. i haven't noticed evidence of a racist agenda in the story lines, either.

while it's certainly possible the writers, producers, or actors are biased, i've always appreciated their efforts to balance many different viewpoints when dramatizing every conflict within the show.

there will always be some who hold the opinion the negative portrayal of a culture in any way is racist, even in works of art, no matter how the story is framed.


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## HobokenSkier (Oct 14, 2015)

john4200 said:


> There seems to be a non sequitur here. What does that have to do with Dar knowing how close Quinn and Carrie are?


The Dar / Saul compact knows Quinn and Carrie more than Alison does.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Stephen_Harman said:


> The Dar / Saul compact knows Quinn and Carrie more than Alison does.


Agreed. Dar and Saul definitely know a lot more about Carrie and Quinn than Allison Carr does. I would not assume it is just because those two are allies now, however. I think even before they were allied, they each had a fairly good idea about Carrie and Quinn.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Didn't care for th Carrie-off-her-meds artifice. And I still wonder why the CIA cares about Carrie? And how can't the CIA and German Intelligence not know where she is?

Quinn is a bad ass. No way was he there to kill Carrie, although my wife's theory is he was sent to do that, and is now going to question her to figure out what the hell is going on. 

I don't remember Saul being such an ahole. But I guess hot Ginger CIA might do that to you. And now maybe I'd buy her being the one to try to off Carrie, just out of jealousy.


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## markymark_ctown (Oct 11, 2004)

Crazy Carrie makes a brief return. 

Surprised to see Saul in bed with the CIA lead who stabbed him in the back, called her on it, and then eased off. I guess now we know why he eased off of the disciplinary measures.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I'm not convinced Saul was in bed with Allison Carr. I think she may be delusional. We previously saw several interactions between Allison and Saul when no one else was in the room or able to observe, and not once was there even a hint that they were sleeping together. I suppose it could be the first time, and Saul is doing it because he suspects Allison of something. But even that is harder for me to believe than that Allison is delusional and hallucinating Saul in her bed.


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## markymark_ctown (Oct 11, 2004)

alrighty then...


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> ...I guess hot Ginger CIA might do that to you...


why did i immediately think "jonas is in the cia?" :


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

following the graffiti scandal, it's impossible to watch this show without feeling the producers have a massive agenda, as opposed to at least trying to attempt to somewhat reflect reality.
Kinda like buying a Volkswagen...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Interesting that Carrie and Allison are both jumping so hard to wrong conclusions...Carrie that the same people who tried to kill her in Beirut are trying to find her in Germany (even though she already knows the CIA is looking for her), and Allison that Carrie is the source for the Wikileak (even though Carrie is a spy, not a hacker).

Did Carrie actually take the pills? She didn't seem to be very sedated while waiting hours for her stalker to show up...


tvmaster2 said:


> following the graffiti scandal, it's impossible to watch this show without feeling the producers have a massive agenda, as opposed to at least trying to attempt to somewhat reflect reality.
> Kinda like buying a Volkswagen...


I don't understand...the graffiti "scandal," if anything, merely shows that the producers are mildly incompetent.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Wasn't that wiley Carrie hiding at her boyfriend's flat?
I love those leaded glass doors.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Didn't care for th Carrie-off-her-meds artifice. And I still wonder why the CIA cares about Carrie? And how can't the CIA and German Intelligence not know where she is?
> 
> Quinn is a bad ass. No way was he there to kill Carrie, although my wife's theory is he was sent to do that, and is now going to question her to figure out what the hell is going on.
> 
> I don't remember Saul being such an ahole. But I guess hot Ginger CIA might do that to you. And now maybe I'd buy her being the one to try to off Carrie, just out of jealousy.


I think the final scene explains his anger.



Spoiler



In next-week-on-Homeland Quinn tells Carrie she's on the CIA hit list. I feel for you, my wife is smarter than me, too.





markymark_ctown said:


> Crazy Carrie makes a brief return.
> 
> Surprised to see Saul in bed with the CIA lead who stabbed him in the back, called her on it, and then eased off. I guess now we know why he eased off of the disciplinary measures.


They were presented as a couple of long standing, who were comfortable with each other, not in the first flush of intimacy. I think this explains why he blew up so angry instead of quietly dealing with her as office politics.



john4200 said:


> I'm not convinced Saul was in bed with Allison Carr. I think she may be delusional. We previously saw several interactions between Allison and Saul when no one else was in the room or able to observe, and not once was there even a hint that they were sleeping together. I suppose it could be the first time, and Saul is doing it because he suspects Allison of something. But even that is harder for me to believe than that Allison is delusional and hallucinating Saul in her bed.


You've obviously never carried on a workplace romance. Spooks like these would presume to be monitored everywhere at work.



MikeAndrews said:


> Wasn't that wiley Carrie hiding at her boyfriend's flat?


They were hiding out in one of the billionaire's many places that were mentioned earlier.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

ej42137 said:


> Spooks like these would presume to be monitored everywhere at work.


The two of them are the big bosses there. They would certainly be able to find a private place to talk. Which they did, because what they were talking about they wanted to be private. But even so, Saul did not give even the slightest hint in his behavior or his words that he was sleeping with Allison.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

What is it with the trend in shows like Homeland to start off with spoilers about the episode(s) you're about to watch? I just don't get that at all.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> What is it with the trend in shows like Homeland to start off with spoilers about the episode(s) you're about to watch? I just don't get that at all.


I would hate that... but what specifically are you talking about?

Not a fan of crazy Carrie - hopefully the meds kicked in - although I too questioned if she actually took them...


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Cainebj said:


> I would hate that... but what specifically are you talking about?
> 
> Not a fan of crazy Carrie - hopefully the meds kicked in - although I too questioned if she actually took them...


It seems like the minute before the show airs, they show you what's coming up on Homeland. It isn't a previously on. I FF.

And I too am not a fan of any crazy character. It's got to be the easiest acting gig ever. No nuance, just bug eyed, rapid talking, jittery movements.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> It seems like the minute before the show airs, they show you what's coming up on Homeland. It isn't a previously on. I FF.


This happens to me sometimes on premium channel shows: They show the new episode twice in a row. The first one runs a little over, my TiVo records it's "Next Week On X" with the 2nd showing. I watch it thinking it's a "Previously On X" and wondering "WTF, did I miss one?". Then the commercials come on and then I see "Previously On X".


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

tlc said:


> This happens to me sometimes on premium channel shows: They show the new episode twice in a row. The first one runs a little over, my TiVo records it's "Next Week On X" with the 2nd showing. I watch it thinking it's a "Previously On X" and wondering "WTF, did I miss one?". Then the commercials come on and then I see "Previously On X".


You've got to train yourself to look for the channel bumper logo before you start watching. Otherwise you're going to get badly spoiled from time to time.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> You've got to train yourself to look for the channel bumper logo before you start watching.


That's a good trick...


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

So Carrie has a handy stash of meds. Glad to have the crazy gone - that gets old instantly. 

And is it Allison who blew up the Syrian plane?

Still really unclear on how Carrie or her employer fit into things.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

It wasn't just a handy stash of meds. It was a full escape plan, including documents and the like.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> It wasn't just a handy stash of meds. It was a full escape plan, including documents and the like.


Right. I liked Quinn's observation that if she had such a swell life, why did she have all of this escape plan set up.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> So Carrie has a handy stash of meds. Glad to have the crazy gone - that gets old instantly.
> 
> And is it Allison who blew up the Syrian plane?
> 
> Still really unclear on how Carrie or her employer fit into things.


I liked how Carrie was suddenly sane again after taking one dose. Writers waving hand.

My bet is that Allison is a mole for the Russians. Wasn't the assassin who shot Quinn the same Vladimir that the Russian guy introduced at the other table?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> And is it Allison who blew up the Syrian plane?


Could be. Now that we have confirmation that she is responsible for the attempted assassination of Carrie and Quinn, it is not hard to think she could be responsible for another assassination. I'm not sure what her motive would be, but she certainly had the opportunity, when she had the "money" put on the plane. Could her only motive for blowing up the plane be stealing the money?


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

I don't think all the different threads will necessarily lead to a single point. Each will just be complications for the other.

The most obvious suspect for the blown up plane would be the Israelis, since they knew about the CIA plans and were stridently opposed to them.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I am assuming it was Mossad who blew up the plane.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

john4200 said:


> As for expecting Quinn to kill Carrie, that is why Allison Carr is my top choice. She probably does not know how close Quinn and Carrie were. While Dar Adal probably does know (at least to some extent).


Dar Adal definitely knows...he confronted Quinn about it when Quinn was..er,.."paying the rent" with his BBW apartment super.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Allison must have magic down below.

So, it appears the Russians took out the Syrian general, and they and Allison are using it to setup Saul.

Still not sure why anybody cares about Carrie in all of this. Maybe Allison had her whacked so she wouldn't come to Saul's rescue, but it's hard to see how.

Carrie being "the target" in Lebanon is pretty unconvincing writing. She stayed behind. There was a Hezbollah guy in her hotel room, explaining this to her. Seems like there would never be a time to be an easier target.

I guess Quinn didn't want to commit suicide then and there with the gun, so he's going to zip tie and drown himself? Hoping to disappear from the scene? All to save Carrie from unspecified threats? You would certainly think that a CIA hitman with a German intelligence girlfriend would have some access to off-books medical care. Or the common trope of going to a doctor (or a veterinarian) and having them operate under the persuasion of a gun.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

The SVR certainly did not want the general in charge, so I am sure they facilitated blowing up the plane. But I suspect Allison was the one who made it happen, since she had easy access to the plane for hours. The SVR probably supplied the bomb.

As for how Carrie figures in, I think they are trying to pin her murder on Saul. To an outsider, it probably looks like Saul is capable of being mad enough at Carrie to have her killed. So Allison plans to leak evidence that Saul was responsible for Carrie's murder.

What I cannot figure out is why Allison is working with the SVR. Has the show ever given us any hints to her history and background, something that could explain why she is working with the SVR?


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I guess Quinn didn't want to commit suicide then and there with the gun, so he's going to zip tie and drown himself? Hoping to disappear from the scene? All to save Carrie from unspecified threats? You would certainly think that a CIA hitman with a German intelligence girlfriend would have some access to off-books medical care. Or the common trope of going to a doctor (or a veterinarian) and having them operate under the persuasion of a gun.


When the boyfriend tried to call an ambulance, Quinn said "if I turn up like this, in a hospital or a morgue, then Carrie will never be free".

If you accept that statement as true, then the cinderblock/ziptie solution makes sense since his body will in theory be lost at the bottom of a river.

Of course, "if you accept that statement as true" is a pretty huge if. I can't figure out how that makes any sense. He delivered proof of death, and then an assassin tried to take him out. There's no reason why his subsequent arrival at a hospital or morgue has to diverge from that narrative in any manner that would put Carrie in danger.


----------



## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

john4200 said:


> What I cannot figure out is why Allison is working with the SVR. Has the show ever given us any hints to her history and background, something that could explain why she is working with the SVR?


Can't an ambitious career girl rise through the organizational ranks by framing her boss anymore without being given the third degree? I assumed she gets power and the Russians get a manipulable puppet on the inside. A lot like the CIA trying to install Javadi as a puppet a while back.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

series5orpremier said:


> Can't an ambitious career girl rise through the organizational ranks by framing her boss anymore without being given the third degree? I assumed she gets power and the Russians get a manipulable puppet on the inside. A lot like the CIA trying to install Javadi as a puppet a while back.


I suppose that could be it -- Allison's ambition, possibly combined with persuasion from her SVR boyfriend. But that seems like such a tawdry motive for high treason.


----------



## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Allison must have magic down below.
> 
> So, it appears the Russians took out the Syrian general, and they and Allison are using it to setup Saul.
> 
> ...


I don't think the CIA officially cares about Carrie beyond wondering what her role in leaking the documents might be/have been. Allison putting a hit order on Carrie was all her doing as far as we know at this point. Definitely an off-book op. Allison probably realizes that Carrie is brilliant enough to find out what she has been up to.


----------



## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

busyba said:


> When the boyfriend tried to call an ambulance, Quinn said "if I turn up like this, in a hospital or a morgue, then Carrie will never be free".
> 
> If you accept that statement as true, then the cinderblock/ziptie solution makes sense since his body will in theory be lost at the bottom of a river.
> 
> Of course, "if you accept that statement as true" is a pretty huge if. I can't figure out how that makes any sense. He delivered proof of death, and then an assassin tried to take him out. There's no reason why his subsequent arrival at a hospital or morgue has to diverge from that narrative in any manner that would put Carrie in danger.


Quinn can't be found dead in what is obviously a hideout, as that would raise questions about how he got there and who helped him get there, especially with the assassin being killed. Allison (and the CIA sans Saul) still thinks Carrie is dead. Any questionable circumstances will cause everyone to re-evaluate.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

frombhto323 said:


> Quinn can't be found dead in what is obviously a hideout, as that would raise questions about how he got there and who helped him get there, especially with the assassin being killed. Allison (and the CIA sans Saul) still thinks Carrie is dead. Any questionable circumstances will cause everyone to re-evaluate.


Correction. Only Allison and the SVR think Carrie is dead. The operation was Saul's off book, and the Russkie took the phone. At this point Saul has talked to Carrie. We haven't seen Carrie tell Saul that Quinn was given her name in Saul's operation.

Nothing makes sense yet as to what Allison is afraid of from Carrie, that couldn't have been found in the hack downloads by anyone else.

As for Allison setting up Saul for Dar Adal, "We've know each other for 18 years." Good luck with that.

How about Newman(?) saying, "They can find me by the color of the paint on the wall" but no problem publishing the _footage of U]the sex den[/U] CCTV video_, and exposing that two _workers from the sex den_ were murdered by the SVR? How could the SVR ever think that someone from the sex den was the source? And the same someone from the sex den was the source of the hack?

And once again, Carrie has made a remarkable recovery with _one dose_ of her meds.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MikeAndrews said:


> And once again, Carrie has made a remarkable recovery with _one dose_ of her meds.


Well, she is bipolar, and subject to rapid mood swings. Not all of them are necessarily in a bad direction.


----------



## markymark_ctown (Oct 11, 2004)

OK, I had to look up SVR. 

SVR...Russian Foreign Intelligence Service


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

markymark_ctown said:


> OK, I had to look up SVR.
> 
> SVR...Russian Foreign Intelligence Service


Thank you ... I was just about to do the same thing just before I saw your post! :up:


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

markymark_ctown said:


> OK, I had to look up SVR.
> 
> SVR...Russian Foreign Intelligence Service


I only got it right because it was in John4200's post above.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MikeAndrews said:


> I only got it right because it was in John4200's post above.


They mentioned it several times in the episode. The TV news program playing in the episode even explained it ("...SVR, Russia's external intelligence agency..."). I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the SVR was the Putin administration's name for what was once the KGB, but I probably would not have remembered it if it were not mentioned in the episode.


----------



## Hank (May 31, 2000)

How about the episode title "Better Call Saul"?!?!?!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Hank said:


> How about the episode title "Better Call Saul"?!?!?!


Heh. That cracked me up.


----------



## jilter (Oct 4, 2002)

TV is often on while I am in a room doing something else, so I half-pay attention. But I have to say when Homeland is on - I am always drawn into watching. 
I am the annoying person who asks tons of questions during a show. "Who is that?" "What did they do?" - Just ask my husband. But, I have to say - even at half-attention -What a good show.

There is a scene on right now with F. Murray Abraham and Mandy Patinkin -
only 2 of the finest actors working today.


----------



## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

I enjoy the Dar/Saul scenes. I honestly would have been happy for Carrie to fly off into the sunset, the show is better without her IMHO.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

"Quinn, You'll be with us for few more days..."


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

The Quinn story line is bothering me a bit. He just happens to get picked up by a guy who manages the building for German Jihadists, and is also a physician? And I get that he's a bad-ass, but I would imagine a big, muscular, just-out-of-prison jihadist should be able to handle a guy that can barely walk.

So Saul's workplace dalliance is known to Dar. 

At least Saul asked Carrie WTF the Russians would be interested in her, and she said something in the leaked documents. I've been wondering all along how she could be of interest to anyone. I still can't see why she deletes pictures of her daughter and thinks she has to head to parts unknown. Why can't she go back to the U.S., hang with her sister, get a job as a waitress and lead a quiet life?

I imagine During has a copy of the drive that Saul gave him to give to Carrie.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> At least Saul asked Carrie WTF the Russians would be interested in her, and she said something in the leaked documents. I've been wondering all along how she could be of interest to anyone. I still can't see why she deletes pictures of her daughter and thinks she has to head to parts unknown. Why can't she go back to the U.S., hang with her sister, get a job as a waitress and lead a quiet life?


Because if people really are out to get her, she'll just be leading them to her family. She needs to get clear before she can go back.

Yeah, the coincidence of the guy who rescues Quinn happening to be the terrorists' building super yanked me right out of the story.


----------



## brebeans (Sep 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Because if people really are out to get her, she'll just be leading them to her family. She needs to get clear before she can go back.
> 
> Yeah, the coincidence of the guy who rescues Quinn happening to be the terrorists' building super yanked me right out of the story.


Yeah....sort of 'over the top', but hey....lots of things about TV are over the top. So, I just go with it, since I really am enjoying this season more than I thought I would.

Still one of the better shows on TV.


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## markymark_ctown (Oct 11, 2004)

Pope Francis. Two words.

Who includes a space in a password?


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

markymark_ctown said:


> Pope Francis. Two words.
> 
> Who includes a space in a password?


People who prefer passphrases for additional security.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

So Allison is not a career mole for the Russkies.

What took Carrie (and Saul, still) so long to realize who could have known about the kill box? And Allison was the one the Judge contacted to say he had a message for Carrie, but Allison blocked it.

In that meeting with Allison I was waiting for the twist for Carrie to say that she knew Allison was the dirty.

Why wouldn't the Jihadists have just killed Quinn and burned his body to ashes, other than he's a co-star and we need another heroic miracle?


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Where did the name Carrie Orser come from? 

Why didn't Allison just order the sniper to shoot? She was okay with ordering her death at least once before.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> So Alison is not a career mole for the Russkies.
> 
> What took Carrie (and Saul, still) so long to realize who could have known about the kill box? And Allison was the one the Judge contacted to say he had a message for Carrie, but Allison blocked it.
> 
> ...


I am thinking they want to blame Quinn and the US as complicit in the attack somehow.

Based on the backstory with Allison, I am thinking Carrie just had too much history with her to think she was dirty.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

busyba said:


> Where did the name Carrie Orser come from?
> 
> Why didn't Allison just order the sniper to shoot? She was okay with ordering her death at least once before.


Allison was supposed to be touched by Carrie crying that she wanted her life back, and maybe Allison saw a way to end it with what Carrie was asking her to look at. 'Course Allison handled it just fine thinking Carrie had been killed by the kill box assassin.

What else did Carrie need from Allison anyway? She already had the entire download.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Weird Sunday coincidence.

60 Minutes has the Iranian warlord on, saying he's been accused of using a drill on the skulls of his enemies, which he denies.

Homeland has the Pakistani guy saying that his enemy will drill into his skull with a drill.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Weird Sunday coincidence.
> 
> 60 Minutes has the Iranian warlord on, saying he's been accused of using a drill on the skulls of his enemies, which he denies.


I wonder where he got the drill.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MikeAndrews said:


> What took Carrie (and Saul, still) so long to realize who could have known about the kill box?


That's the big flaw in this season. The list of people who could have known about the kill box is short (and the list of people who knew, but did not know Quinn's relationship with Carrie, even shorter), and yet no one seems to have pursued that line of investigation.


----------



## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

john4200 said:


> That's the big flaw in this season. The list of people who could have known about the kill box is short (and the list of people who knew, but did not know Quinn's relationship with Carrie, even shorter), and yet no one seems to have pursued that line of investigation.


True, but Allison was not suspected at all because neither Saul or Carrie could see they should have suspected her.

I also don't get why the terrorists didn't just kill Quinn when he started asking questions about the bigger truck. Is having him around to pin it on worth the risk of him spoiling their plans? They've already seen how much of a bad ass he can be. Not much point in having him around, IMO.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Well, it sounded like one or more of the jihadis thought they were going to Syria. But I'm with everyone else at wondering why keep him alive now? Maybe as a hostage bargaining chip?


----------



## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Well, it sounded like one or more of the jihadis thought they were going to Syria. But I'm with everyone else at wondering why keep him alive now? Maybe as a hostage bargaining chip?


The doctor who attended to his injuries was kept in the dark, but it seems that everyone else was in on it. Once the doctor found it, it seemed pointless to keep Quinn alive.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

frombhto323 said:


> True, but Allison was not suspected at all because neither Saul or Carrie could see they should have suspected her.


Again, this makes no sense. The investigation should have started with the very short list of people who might have had the knowledge (and the not-knowledge of Quinn and Carrie) of the kill box. Allison would be on that short list. Allison should have been a prime suspect as soon as Carrie found out she had been targeted for assassination and told Saul about it. Spies don't ignore suspects just because they don't seem untrustworthy.


----------



## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

This season definitely has a Howard Gordon/24 feel to it. Inside mole, WMD, etc... It would be hard to equal the first 2 seasons and they haven't. But it's still good enough to keep watching.


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

add me to the people who wanna know where "Orser" came from 

and

I totally do not get the Quinn storyline - why did they want him to go with them so desperately if they are headed back to Berlin with some kind of biohazard weapon.


----------



## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

The only thing I can make of it is that the original plan was to go to Syria and then they simply changed their minds and decided to go back to Berlin. Seems concocted. Now Jack Bauer, er, Quinn has to stop the bad guys before the gas is deployed.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

VegasVic said:


> The only thing I can make of it is that the original plan was to go to Syria and then they simply changed their minds and decided to go back to Berlin. Seems concocted. Now Jack Bauer, er, Quinn has to stop the bad guys before the gas is deployed.


I think the plan was to go to the country, get the gas, and return to Berlin for the attack. They were just playing Quinn for whatever reason.


----------



## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Yeah that's what I don't get. Using him to get into Syria made sense. Bringing him along on the gas run makes no sense.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Cainebj said:


> add me to the people who wanna know where "Orser" came from


Carrie Orser seems to just have been her cover name at the time. I could have sworn she also used it in contexts where she was only amongst friends, but maybe part of the tradecraft is to not switch back and forth in order to avoid slipping up.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the plan was to go to the country, get the gas, and return to Berlin for the attack. They were just playing Quinn for whatever reason.


Did they ever end up using any of Quinn's expertise to get to where they did actually go?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

busyba said:


> Did they ever end up using any of Quinn's expertise to get to where they did actually go?


No, they're still in Germany (I think; certainly still in Europe). He was going to get them into Syria.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, they're still in Germany (I think; certainly still in Europe). He was going to get them into Syria.


I think the captioning said they were in Bosnia.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, they're still in Germany (I think; certainly still in Europe). He was going to get them into Syria.


The Wall Street Journal Blog has a pretty good recap of Homeland each week, through the eyes of a former intelligence agent the historian and curator at the International Spy Museum. He basically evaluates which parts are things that actually could have happened in the spook world and which parts are complete BS.

According to the recap for the most recent ep, they went to the Balkans.

EDIT: corrected the recappers bona fides...


----------



## Hank (May 31, 2000)

In case anyone is interested, here's the route from Berlin to Syria. According to Google Maps, it's a 39 hour drive (nonstop). So about two days, I'd guess with stops, etc. The route goes through several other countries:
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Hungary
Serbia
Bulgaria 
Turkey

A slightly different longer route (in gray) goes through:
Austria
Croatia 
Serbia
Bulgaria
Turkey

Neither route goes through Bosnia, although the second route follows the southern border of Croatia but doesn't go into Bosnia.

My question is, can a truck full of terrorist looking men (and Quinn) drive freely through all those countries unimpeded? Obviously getting into Syria would be difficult which is why they have Quinn.. but what about the rest of the trip? Serbia and Turkey aren't part of the EU.

(Also, yes, I know they didn't ultimately take this trip, I'm just talking about the logistics and planning of it.)


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Hank said:


> In case anyone is interested, here's the route from Berlin to Syria. ... My question is, can a truck full of terrorist looking men (and Quinn) drive freely through all those countries unimpeded? Obviously getting into Syria would be difficult which is why they have Quinn.. but what about the rest of the trip? Serbia and Turkey aren't part of the EU.
> 
> (Also, yes, I know they didn't ultimately take this trip, I'm just talking about the logistics and planning of it.)


Smuggling has long been a popular pastime in that part of the world.


----------



## efilippi (Jul 24, 2001)

I can't believe that Allison will get away with the "It's not me, it's him" routine. The chase scene was really good, though. Kept me on the edge of my seat.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I wasn't quite sure how Allison talked the Russian guy into her plan. He's going to defect because...her cover is blown?


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wasn't quite sure how Allison talked the Russian guy into her plan. He's going to defect because...her cover is blown?


Well the whole idea is they pass intel back and forth between both sides. Allison rose through the ranks because the Russians gave her intel they were willing to give up. Her play is to tell the CIA that they want to continue at that and let the Russian continue now that she knows there was no real rat on the Russian side. Even if she is found out for real she might say let us continue our job (working for you) and give you even better intel.

We shall see!


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wasn't quite sure how Allison talked the Russian guy into her plan. He's going to defect because...her cover is blown?


She's proven she has a magical chooch


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wasn't quite sure how Allison talked the Russian guy into her plan. He's going to defect because...her cover is blown?


She's not saying that he's going to defect. She's saying that he's been a mole for her inside the KGB GRU this whole time (10+ years).

The Russian guy is not at any personal risk because anytime he wants he can invoke diplomatic immunity and go free. Pretending to be her asset is his only play to protect her.

It's not a _perfect_ plan; there are multiple ways it can go sideways. But given how little time they had before getting steamrolled, it's a pretty good play to make the good guys at least hesitate for a little bit; which might be enough of an opening for Allison to at least manage a palatable, if not ideal, result.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Also, I don't think Allison or her handler are under any illusion that they'll be able to go back to the status quo ante. At this point, they're just hoping to keep her out of jail.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wasn't quite sure how Allison talked the Russian guy into her plan. He's going to defect because...her cover is blown?


Yeah. And she rushed to protect her asset -- because a Russian was defecting?? Because of a mole when she's the only one who knew her asset?


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

efilippi said:


> I can't believe that Allison will get away with the "It's not me, it's him" routine. The chase scene was really good, though. Kept me on the edge of my seat.


I agree. I was kind of looking forward to her being caught, so to come up with that lame an excuse. Hoping it does not work.

Quinn in the gas chamber. Hope the antidote does work.
But I still don't understand why the doctor guy saved his life just to kill him.
That is the same doctor guy who is with them isn't it?


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> She's proven she has a magical chooch


(Must ... restrain self ... from making joke ... about ... iron curtains ...)



tlc said:


> Yeah. And she rushed to protect her asset -- because a Russian was defecting?? Because of a mole when she's the only one who knew her asset?


Or, in other words, Allison is invoking the CYA Ruse ... aka Cover Your Asset.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

busyba said:


> Also, I don't think Allison or her handler are under any illusion that they'll be able to go back to the status quo ante. At this point, they're just hoping to keep her out of jail.


Not that this version of 24 worries about plot holes, but there's the little matter of Carriers name being in the kill box and the Russian assassin shooting Quinn there and how his phone redial rang Alison.

Quinn should have gone face down on the floor so the jihadis wouldn't get a decent video of him.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Quinn should have gone face down on the floor so the jihadis wouldn't get a decent video of him.


I had a similar thought. Maybe move face forward into a corner to rob them of the video opportunity.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

markp99 said:


> I had a similar thought. Maybe move face forward into a corner to rob them of the video opportunity.


If he was absolutely going to die, then yeah, that's the play.

Considering the atropine shot and the possibility, however slight, of survival; being antagonistic could be self-defeating.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

busyba said:


> If he was absolutely going to die, then yeah, that's the play.
> 
> Considering the atropine shot and the possibility, however slight, of survival; being antagonistic could be self-defeating.


Yes, this was my 2nd thought.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Hank said:


> My question is, can a truck full of terrorist looking men (and Quinn) drive freely through all those countries unimpeded? Obviously getting into Syria would be difficult which is why they have Quinn.. but what about the rest of the trip? Serbia and Turkey aren't part of the EU.
> 
> (Also, yes, I know they didn't ultimately take this trip, I'm just talking about the logistics and planning of it.)


In Europe, they have what is known as the Schengen Area (named after the city in which the original agreement was signed in 1985), which includes most of the EU countries, and a few non-EU countries that have open borders for travel and transport: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

Today, in the real world, you could follow those routes from Berlin to Syria either to Hungary or Slovenia without going through a border checkpoint. You would not be able to enter Croatia or any of the Balkan countries.

The show may take place in an alternate reality/future where Croatia, Bulgaria, and Romania have already implemented the changes required for Schengen membership (which is supposed to happen soon in reality, so it's not too far-fetched for this show). In that case, you would be able to get as far as the Turkish border without going through a border control (but you'd have to avoid Bosnia or Serbia).

I have no idea how hard it would be to enter any of the non-Schengen countries without going through a border checkpoint, but I'm sure there are ways to do it.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

Cool, thanks!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Great episode tonight. When they cut to credits at the end, I was NOOOOOOOO! Fastest hour on TV.

Season Finale next week. My prediction: Carrie is a hero. 

Can't remember if this was posted here or not, Homeland has been picked up for another season.

http://tvline.com/2015/12/09/homeland-renewed-season-6-showtime/


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

This episode really made the intelligence agencies (and people) look bad.

1) Saul gave his word to During about treating the informant well, and then did almost nothing to try to see that he kept his word. He even admitted that he cannot control what BND does. Hello? Then you should not have given your word, Saul. Or else made sure that BND did not control the situation. Saul looked like he was feeling guilty that the guy killed himself. He damn well should feel guilty.

2) The BND put everyone they had on the airport, just based on the word of a spy of questionable loyalty, repeating what a dead terrorist told her? A terrorist who (allegedly) shot both the people questioning him? WTF? It seems like the airport deserved at most 50% of their resources, with the rest of the resources continuing to pursue other leads, such as Carrie's.

3) Why didn't Saul stay in the room and talk to Allison while the doctor worked on her? Or at least sat there and kept an eye on her? And before that, why didn't they put a minder on Allison who was less likely to be friendly and loyal to her (that guy had worked closely with her at the station)? That moron totally missed Allison signaling the old woman and then getting information dropped in that ticket. A more suspicious minder would have caught that. Also, did he not see the woman go into the bathroom after Allison? He should have at least listened at the door, and preferably looked in on her.

4) I'm not sure what to make of those German subway-goers. If someone that looked like those guys suddenly closed the gate right in front of me and put a chain on it, I certainly would not stand there quietly like a sheep. I would have confronted them verbally at least. And if I did not like the answer, I would have called out for security and/or other people nearby. 

It seems like a stupid thing for the terrorists to do if they want to stay under the radar. Unless they somehow knew that all German subway goers are secretly just sheep to be herded.

5) Allison just gets worse and worse. Is there any evil she is not willing to perpetrate in order to preserve her reputation and several million dollars? And how is she too stupid to see that it is much more likely that the SVR will kill her than pay her?


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I agree with all that - almost as stupid as Carrie being the one alone at the train station and running into the tunnel - LOL

But I went with it and enjoyed it. The scene with Allison and the professor had me on edge.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Carrie sure got lucky to spot the terrorist on the escalator. What are the chances? 

I usually forget about plot holes and enjoy the show but as John pointed out above, it was a bit ridiculous. All they need is the ticking clock and this would be 24.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

I saw the fact that the "doctor" who came in to work on Allison was not a doctor (and almost certainly SVR) coming from a mile away, but I was expecting him to be there to tie up loose ends and kill Allison rather than extract her.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

I'm with Saul... I've had enough for one day, I'll be at the bar.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Cainebj said:


> I agree with all that - almost as stupid as Carrie being the one alone at the train station and running into the tunnel - LOL
> ...


Yeah, Dem Germans are sure deh dum. They get a specific terrorist threat scheduled for rush hour and don't send a single cop to the train station, even when gates are being locked and commuters are trapped.

Even Chicago has phone connectivity working way down in the subway.

Homeland wasn't this dumb in the first few seasons.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It was bizarre what a terrible job Allison did staging the crime scene...no GSR on the "shooter"'s hand, GSR on her shoulder showing she was shot point-blank, the angles will be wrong on her wound and the "bodyguard"'s...hasn't she ever watched CSI? 

And yes, it was a very helpful coincidence that Carrie just happened to be going on the up escalator when Terrorist #2 was going down. I figured she would see Terrorist #1, who at least has distinctive facial blemishes...Terrorist #2 was virtually unrecognizable without his beard, let alone in a crowd at a distance!


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was bizarre what a terrible job Allison did staging the crime scene...no GSR on the "shooter"'s hand, GSR on her shoulder showing she was shot point-blank, the angles will be wrong on her wound and the "bodyguard"'s...hasn't she ever watched CSI?


As the contact in the bathroom said, she was burnt as an asset; this was just a one and done now. So just like her cover story about her being the handler for the SVR asset instead of it being the other way around, it didn't need to be able to hold up to scrutiny, it just needed to look good enough to buy some time.

The really egregious error was that the phone call between Carrie and Saul didn't contain any dialogue along the lines of:

SAUL: It's not the subway; we got intel that it's the airport.

CARRIE: Who gave you the intel?

SAUL: Allison

CARRIE: <silence>

SAUL: Carrie?

CARRIE: <silence>

SAUL: Oh crap, you're right.​


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was bizarre what a terrible job Allison did staging the crime scene...no GSR on the "shooter"'s hand, GSR on her shoulder showing she was shot point-blank, the angles will be wrong on her wound and the "bodyguard"'s...hasn't she ever watched CSI?
> 
> And yes, it was a very helpful coincidence that Carrie just happened to be going on the up escalator when Terrorist #2 was going down. I figured she would see Terrorist #1, who at least has distinctive facial blemishes...Terrorist #2 was virtually unrecognizable without his beard, let alone in a crowd at a distance!


Forget GSR, she straight up left her fingerprints on all of the guns. I think she just wanted to make it look "good enough" that no one would investigate. Which is fairly stupid since she's under suspicion already.

I think intelligence officers are probably pretty good at recognizing people with or without beards. My wife, who has nothing to do with the intelligence community (that I KNOW OF) recognizes actors and actresses constantly despite them being 20+ years older, with different hair, a beard, and sunglasses.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

busyba said:


> As the contact in the bathroom said, she was burnt as an asset; this was just a one and done now. So just like her cover story about her being the handler for the SVR asset instead of it being the other way around, it didn't need to be able to hold up to scrutiny, it just needed to look good enough to buy some time.


Then why didn't she just shoot her "bodyguard" and leave?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

busyba said:


> As the contact in the bathroom said, she was burnt as an asset; this was just a one and done now. So just like her cover story about her being the handler for the SVR asset instead of it being the other way around, it didn't need to be able to hold up to scrutiny, it just needed to look good enough to buy some time.
> 
> The really egregious error was that the phone call between Carrie and Saul didn't contain any dialogue along the lines of:
> 
> ...


Smart not to put a female bodyguard on her, so she can be left alone for minutes in a random bathroom.

-smak-


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then why didn't she just shoot her "bodyguard" and leave?


Because her final mission before extraction was to disseminate disinformation about the attack so that it would not be interrupted. Her handler gave her that guy's name specifically so that she would have a credible source to claim for her disinformation.

And since the attack was only hours away, the amount of time the staged crime scene needed to not be debunked wasn't much.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

VegasVic said:


> Carrie sure got lucky to spot the terrorist on the escalator. What are the chances?


Better than you'd think.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

VegasVic said:


> I usually forget about plot holes and enjoy the show but as John pointed out above, it was a bit ridiculous. All they need is the ticking clock and this would be 24.


You nailed it...

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/looming-attack-allows-homeland-get-back-doing-what-229714



> When Homeland wants to go full-24, it puts the job in the hands of 24 alum. Islamabad was a reunion of sorts for* Homeland co-creators and former 24 writers Howard Gordon and Alex Gansa, who hadnt shared credit for an episode since the season two premiere. *Damascus comes courtesy of writer David Fury, who spent five seasons on 24 and worked on the second season of Gordons Tyrant, but has never written a Homeland episode until now. Its no surprise the episode puts Carrie into Jack Bauer mode as the rogue former agent who is the only person standing in the way of a devastating attack on civilians. Shes channeling her inner-Jack from the earliest scenes, suppressing her emotional ties to Quinn in service of the greater good.


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## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

john4200 said:


> This episode really made the intelligence agencies (and people) look bad.
> 
> 1) Saul gave his word to During about treating the informant well, and then did almost nothing to try to see that he kept his word. He even admitted that he cannot control what BND does. Hello? Then you should not have given your word, Saul. Or else made sure that BND did not control the situation. Saul looked like he was feeling guilty that the guy killed himself. He damn well should feel guilty.


When Saul made the promise, I wondered how he would uphold it, given that BND would be in control and would be very unlikely to allow the CIA much interference, if at all.



john4200 said:


> 2) The BND put everyone they had on the airport, just based on the word of a spy of questionable loyalty, repeating what a dead terrorist told her? A terrorist who (allegedly) shot both the people questioning him? WTF? It seems like the airport deserved at most 50% of their resources, with the rest of the resources continuing to pursue other leads, such as Carrie's.


Yeah, it would have been much more realistic to follow up all plausible leads given the severity of the situation.



john4200 said:


> 3) Why didn't Saul stay in the room and talk to Allison while the doctor worked on her? Or at least sat there and kept an eye on her? And before that, why didn't they put a minder on Allison who was less likely to be friendly and loyal to her (that guy had worked closely with her at the station)? That moron totally missed Allison signaling the old woman and then getting information dropped in that ticket. A more suspicious minder would have caught that. Also, did he not see the woman go into the bathroom after Allison? He should have at least listened at the door, and preferably looked in on her.


It didn't dawn on me that the doctor was really Russian intelligence until she was gone. I did expect her to make a run for it, since the follow-up review will certainly point to her in several ways, so it is baffling that they would leave her alone at any point given that she is still a suspect herself.



john4200 said:


> 4) I'm not sure what to make of those German subway-goers. If someone that looked like those guys suddenly closed the gate right in front of me and put a chain on it, I certainly would not stand there quietly like a sheep. I would have confronted them verbally at least. And if I did not like the answer, I would have called out for security and/or other people nearby.
> 
> It seems like a stupid thing for the terrorists to do if they want to stay under the radar. Unless they somehow knew that all German subway goers are secretly just sheep to be herded.


The terrorists should have been wearing transit uniforms at least. If they had pulled that stunt at 5p in DC's Metro, there would have been much consternation.



john4200 said:


> 5) Allison just gets worse and worse. Is there any evil she is not willing to perpetrate in order to preserve her reputation and several million dollars? And how is she too stupid to see that it is much more likely that the SVR will kill her than pay her?


She's always been an opportunist and now she is desperate. Her only chance now is to run and hope the Russians follow through on promised payment (very unlikely, IMO). She has no hope of anything but prison (or worse) if she goes back to the U.S.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

astrohip said:


> You nailed it...
> 
> http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/looming-attack-allows-homeland-get-back-doing-what-229714


I enjoyed 24 but it got too repetitive. Which is why I'm not enjoying this season of Homeland all that much. My girlfriend and other friends, who have never seen 24, are loving Homeland this season.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

frombhto323 said:


> She's always been an opportunist and now she is desperate. Her only chance now is to run and hope the Russians follow through on promised payment (very unlikely, IMO). She has no hope of anything but prison (or worse) if she goes back to the U.S.


I think her best bet would have been to trick or persuade her minder (the moron, should be easy) to let her go to the college professor alone, use her gun to get him to talk, tip Saul about the real location of the attack, and then disappear. If she got caught later, her tip off of the attack location may buy her some leniency.


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## efilippi (Jul 24, 2001)

Complain about the details all you want, this was one helluvan hour of tv, with a nationwide groan of "NO!" when the screen went black to credits. 

I love Carrie!


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

efilippi said:


> Complain about the details all you want, this was one helluvan hour of tv, with a nationwide groan of "NO!" when the screen went black to credits.
> 
> I love Carrie!


Yeah, I'm with you. I noted all of the same objections, but I thoroughly enjoyed this episode.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

efilippi said:


> Complain about the details all you want, this was one helluvan hour of tv, with a nationwide groan of "NO!" when the screen went black to credits.
> 
> I love Carrie!


It's funny 'cause when Supergirl or Scorpion pull this crap, I go all postal on them and write up a ten paragraph rant about how unrealistic it all is, and how it pulls me out of the moment, and I'm never watching it again.

Carrie/Homeland does it, and I'm like... "ooh, hit me again!"

I love this show.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Why did Alison have to do the last dirty when the SVR had the other woman and prolly many others? If the Russians wanted to send false intel, using a suspected mole is not a likely way to sell it.

Dar Adal is going to be sooooo fired unless he claims the OK for Allison didn't come from him.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

astrohip said:


> It's funny 'cause when Supergirl or Scorpion pull this crap,


Supergirl is from another planet, can fly and has superpowers, is up against alien villains but her writers have to pull THIS crap before it crosses the line to become unrealistic? That's OK, you don't have to answer. Just checking my sanity.


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## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

john4200 said:


> I think her best bet would have been to trick or persuade her minder (the moron, should be easy) to let her go to the college professor alone, use her gun to get him to talk, tip Saul about the real location of the attack, and then disappear. If she got caught later, her tip off of the attack location may buy her some leniency.


The only thing, and it is the crucial thing here, is that if Allison did provide the crucial intel to prevent the attack, she would be the prime target of SVR.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

frombhto323 said:


> The only thing, and it is the crucial thing here, is that if Allison did provide the crucial intel to prevent the attack, she would be the prime target of SVR.


Not crucial, since she is already likely to be killed by the SVR, no matter what she does or does not do. That is why she has to disappear as soon as possible. The SVR is not going to devote any more resources to hunting her if she tips the location of the attack. In general, intelligence agencies are not in the vengeance business. They are forward looking. And an Allison on the run from the CIA, laying low, is not a big threat to them.


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## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Not crucial, since *she is already likely to be killed by the SVR, no matter what she does or does not do.* That is why she has to disappear as soon as possible. The SVR is not going to devote any more resources to hunting her if she tips the location of the attack. In general, intelligence agencies are not in the vengeance business. They are forward looking. And an Allison on the run from the CIA, laying low, is not a big threat to them.


Good point.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

I believed that the SVR was interested in just killing her and being done with it, but I think that if that were the case, they would have done it in the hospital and left her there.

The fact that they extracted her from the hospital leads me to believe that they intend to try to make good on their promises to her.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

busyba said:


> I believed that the SVR was interested in just killing her and being done with it, but I think that if that were the case, they would have done it in the hospital and left her there.
> 
> The fact that they extracted her from the hospital leads me to believe that they intend to try to make good on their promises to her.


More likely, it just means they wanted her to get further away before they dealt with her. Why risk exposing their agents in a hospital murder, when they can instead get her to secretly come to a secure location that they control?

Alternatively, they may have just taken her from the hospital to kill her somewhere else (or have killed her at the hospital and taken the body out for disposal).


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Down the line, Allison could help recruit new traitors. Hey, look at how well it worked out for me.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

All in all, a good finish to a good season. Lots of paybacks and cleaning up loose ends. Allison got her just rewards, Laura didn't get the finish she was hoping for, Qasim is a hero, Numan gets to walk away.

This was a decent season. Not great, had a few stumbles, but still fun to watch. I'll give it a strong B, maybe a B+.

I hope they somehow can make Ivan a recurring character. I realize he'll disappear into WP, but he would be a great person to throw into the Dar Adal/Saul brain trust. He knows how to play the game.

The Agency wants Carrie. Bad. She says no. Let's see how that works out next season. And speaking of next season, that offer from Otto?!? That had all kinds of mixed messages in it. Be his partner? In what way?

Jonas... pre-breakup sex?

RIP Quinn.  He was a great character, and superbly acted by Rupert Friend.


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## spartanstew (Feb 24, 2002)

Yes, enjoyed the season finale an enjoyed the season overall. 

I will miss Quinn - he was a great character.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

I hope Quinn makes a miraculous recovery.

I could tell Otto has hot for Carrie since ep #1


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I could not tell what Carrie's intentions were at the end with Quinn. She blocked the door, closed the blinds, took the pulse sensor off Quinn's finger and put it on her finger, and then she started to lean forward over Quinn, but stopped when the sun shone through the blinds. What was she about to do before the sun shone? Was she going to suffocate him? There did not appear to be a respirator or anything keeping him alive, so she could not really "pull the plug".


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

john4200 said:


> I could not tell what Carrie's intentions were at the end with Quinn. She blocked the door, closed the blinds, took the pulse sensor off Quinn's finger and put it on her finger, and then she started to lean forward over Quinn, but stopped when the sun shone through the blinds. What was she about to do before the sun shone? Was she going to *suffocate* him? There did not appear to be a respirator or anything keeping him alive, so she could not really "pull the plug".


It seemed pretty clear that was where we were going when Dar expressed Quinn's great fear of being in this situation; that was the point at which I said "Oh no!" to the spousal unit.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

There will be no recovery for Quinn. Carrie is going to carry out his final wishes. There was no need to show it (and I'm glad they didn't).

RIP Quinn.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

My feeling is they wouldn't have set up the cliffhanger like that if there wasn't an intended payoff for next season. I didn't see any tactical advantage for Carrie of putting the pulse sensor on her own finger. The minute she takes it off to leave the nurses would come running and possibly see her anyway. Perhaps just a lover's gesture giving her extra time to linger afterwards. She was being spiritual having just visited the chapel, so did the sun coming out from behind the clouds have any affect on her decision is the question.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

series5orpremier said:


> I didn't see any tactical advantage for Carrie of putting the pulse sensor on her own finger. The minute she takes it off to leave the nurses would come running and possibly see her anyway.


It does not help her get away, but it does help her if she intends to kill him. She could suffocate him or whatever and then wait an hour to be sure they have no chance of reviving him.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Since this is a Howard Gordon series I wouldn't be surprised if Quinn is back to 100% next season. I hope not, it was a good ending for the character. I enjoyed this episode quite a bit.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't even address it and halfway through the season Quinn mysteriously appears out of the shadows to save Carrie's life, leading to a flashback of what happened in the hospital room. These shows can be so melodramatic.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

astrohip said:


> This was a decent season. Not great, had a few stumbles, but still fun to watch. I'll give it a strong B, maybe a B+.


i'd give this season a little higher, an a-. i realized this mid-season when it became my second favorite show (behind fargo), found myself watching it live on sunday nights.



astrohip said:


> There will be no recovery for Quinn. Carrie is going to carry out his final wishes. There was no need to show it (and I'm glad they didn't).


that's how i read the scene, and i'm glad it wasn't shown, too.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

series5orpremier said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if they don't even address it and halfway through the season Quinn mysteriously appears out of the shadows to save Carrie's life, leading to a flashback of what happened in the hospital room. These shows can be so melodramatic.


Yup. Or he has a "twin brother". But if he's really dead never to come back props to the way they did it. The last episode was fun. They tied up a lot of loose ends while leaving some things open for next season. The whole season I expected Otto to turn out to be a bad guy.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> And speaking of next season, that offer from Otto?!? That had all kinds of mixed messages in it. Be his partner? In what way?


Mixed messages? It seemed like a pretty unambiguous marriage proposal to me...he even called it a proposal.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Mixed messages? It seemed like a pretty unambiguous marriage proposal to me...he even called it a proposal.


Yeah. now we come back to see if Carrie married Otto (larf) or goes back to Langley (guaranteed) and Quinn has a miraculous recovery.

Remember the main premise of this season was that ONLY Carrie would see the lie in the files.... that Allisson never deleted.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Mixed messages? It seemed like a pretty unambiguous marriage proposal to me...he even called it a proposal.


That was my first thought too, that he had kinda sorta semi-proposed to her. But it seemed so out of the blue that it didn't process properly (for me). Wouldn't he have taken a slightly different tack to start a relationship? Maybe not, Otto During is a strange guy.

So... upon further review, I think you're correct. And it helps explain why Otto soured on Carrie to Jonas earlier this season. He kept talking about how he wanted to replace her, but only to Jonas. At the time, that didn't make sense either. Now in hindsight...


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

it seemed to be as much a business proposition as a proposal to me, maybe he was doing his best? he's always come across as eccentric.


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## bsnelson (Oct 30, 1999)

I predict that next season will begin with Carrie being the station chief of some sh*thole country, looking very worried while something very heavy is about to go down. Quinn will "stay dead". During won't even be mentioned, or will get very light treatment (and no ongoing role). 

Print that in permanent ink... 

Brad


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I found Allison's finale to be pretty anti-climatic.
I guess I wanted to see her being brought down rather than a final Bonnie and Clyde image. So Saul was waiting in the woods for however how long for the car to show up? LOL

I guess I found the entire episode to be pretty anti-climatic.
The breakup scene with her and Jonas was some god awful dialogue.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Cainebj said:


> I found Allison's finale to be pretty anti-climatic.
> I guess I wanted to see her being brought down rather than a final Bonnie and Clyde image. So Saul was waiting in the woods for however how long for the car to show up? LOL
> 
> I guess I found the entire episode to be pretty anti-climatic.
> The breakup scene with her and Jonas was some god awful dialogue.


Hey. George Lucas had some free time.

How bout Carrie single handedly saving the world SHOOTING a guy in public in Germany, then going home to take a nap? . Even if it was in Texas she'd have some splainin to do.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

MikeAndrews said:


> How bout Carrie single handedly saving the world SHOOTING a guy in public in Germany, then going home to take a nap? . Even if it was in Texas she'd have some splainin to do.


I imagine the sarin gas next to the dead known-terrorists did most of the talking for her. Not that her friends in BND would need much explanation.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I kind of liked that. The CIA doesn't broadcast that kind of stuff. She's not going to be a public hero for doing it.

-smak-


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

I found it interesting that Saul didn't even bother to try to pretend to try to take Allison alive.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

busyba said:


> I found it interesting that Saul didn't even bother to try to pretend to try to take Allison alive.


Not that I blame him. How lucky that he was in a position to express his ire so directly!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Mixed messages? It seemed like a pretty unambiguous marriage proposal to me...he even called it a proposal.


It was ambiguous to me. He said "partner" regularly. Nonetheless, I was leaning heavily toward marriage proposal until the final lines in that scene... can't remember exactly what they were, but the general idea was, "our partnership will allow us to do incredible things"


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> It was ambiguous to me. He said "partner" regularly. Nonetheless, I was leaning heavily toward marriage proposal until the final lines in that scene... can't remember exactly what they were, but the general idea was, "our partnership will allow us to do incredible things"


I would have been confused except he stroked her hand in a way that said this wasn't a business partnership he was talking about.

Which is bizarre, considering how unnecessary it was to the plot, how it wasn't led up to in any way, etc. At one point they made During seem like a potential shadowy bad guy.

Maybe it was to drive home her dilemma. The guy she really wants to marry is going to die by her hand, the guy she'd settle for in order to get a normal life isn't interested, and so let's add the creepy billionaire to the mix.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not that I blame him. How lucky that he was in a position to express his ire so directly!


If I were him though, I'd want to pop the trunk first so she could see it coming and know it was from me.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

busyba said:


> If I were him though, I'd want to pop the trunk first so she could see it coming and know it was from me.


And follow up with an Evil Overlord Monologue?®

Nah. Kill first, gloat later.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And follow up with an Evil Overlord Monologue?®
> 
> Nah. Kill first, gloat later.


It's not like I was suggesting he walk away and just assume she would eventually be killed off-screen.


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## efilippi (Jul 24, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> At one point they made During seem like a potential shadowy bad guy.


I had that feeling too, wondering just when he would be revealed.

I liked the German CIA/type woman. Wouldn't mind seeing more of her.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

efilippi said:


> I liked the German CIA/type woman. Wouldn't mind seeing more of her.


Rent _Anonyma - Eine Frau in Berlin_.


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