# Thinking of throwing in the towel



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

I've been a Tivo user for about 9 years, starting with a heavily hacked Hughes HDVR2 DirecTivo and have had a Tivo HD on Time Warner Cable for the last 2 years (no hacking on that one, just upgraded the drive to 1TB).

I couple of weeks ago, I bought a 2nd Tivo HD for our game room, and after a week waiting for TWC to come "install" the CableCard, I was quite perturbed to learn that I cannot use it's MRV functionality because TWC are jerks and mark all content they can with the CCI byte that restricts it.

MRV is one of the main reasons I picked up the 2nd Tivo, so I'm having a big case of buyers remorse and am considering jumping ship to either back to DirecTV or going to OTA + online options only. I'm already a happy Netflix streaming user and am curious about HuluPlus too.

So, my question to you all is, should I:
A.) Stick it out with my Tivo HD on TWC and hope either they change their ways about that CCI flag and/or Tivo comes up with a way around it (streaming, for instance)

B.) Dump TWC & the Tivos and go to DTV with their HR24 DVR and H24 receiver combo (which look pretty nice from what I've read, but I'll be stuck with them for 2 years if I don't like them. I'd also probably dump Netflix and use DTV on demand and/or Amazon on demand (via another setup box like my BluRay player or something)

C.) Dump TWC, keep the Tivo's for OTA and use Netflix + Amazon + HuluPlus, etc...


Option C would be the cheapest, obviously since I'd kill the TWC bill but I fear there are a lot of shows that aren't yet available via the online services. The MRV feature I wanted would be mostly moot since the majority of the shows my kids would watch in the 2nd room would either be from Netflix or on DVD/BD.

Option B would get me all of the shows + the MRV and would save me about $44 per month for a year, and then about $12 per month after that. (I'd also get a $180 Costco gift card upfront + whatever I could eBay the Tivo's for.)

Option A keeps the Tivo UI that I know and like, but I kiss the idea of MRV goodbye and deal with the occasional help call into TWC to fix CableCard or TA issues like missing channels. Debatably, the picture quality should be better on TWC than DTV due to the higher bit-rates but I've seen a good bit of macro-blocking on TWC so I'm not too worried about it.


Any of you fellow Tivo-Heads made the jump to the HR24? Is it as good as the reviews and DTV people make it out to be? I've got a little under 2 weeks before my new Tivo's 30 day cancellation window expires so if I'm going to DTV I probably need to order soon.


----------



## ultrarunner (Mar 20, 2008)

Is this something new with TWC? It's been about a year or so since I had two Tivo's, but at that time there were no issues related to multi room viewing. Or am I not quite understanding the issue?


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

ultrarunner said:


> Is this something new with TWC? It's been about a year or so since I had two Tivo's, but at that time there were no issues related to multi room viewing. Or am I not quite understanding the issue?


Not too new, the thread: http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=434742 discusses it at length and was started last October.

Basically, they are marking all programs that are not OTA broadcast channel content as "Copy Once" which lets the DVR record it but it cannot be transferred to other Tivo's via MVR or your PC via Tivo2Go.

It's a TWC corporate decision, confirmed by TWC representatives.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I vote C only because I use OTA w/ Netflix, etc.
I do miss seeing some sporting events when they aren't broadcast OTA, but I get over it.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I record TWC analog and use OTA for HD content - and of course also use Netflix. I rip the DVDs I get via netflix to my PC and use PyTiVo to watch the DVDs on any TiVo DVR in the house.
Obviously I think that is the way to go. Extended basic cable from TWC is all I pay for. When/if my area goes all digital I will rethink things.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I not a huge sports fan but I couldn't live without ESPN, CNBC, CNN, etc. OTA is what like 1&#37; of the content available from any MSO. I can't understand having a state of the art HD system and settling for a half dozen channels just to keep the Tivo interface.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I not a huge sports fan but I couldn't live without ESPN, CNBC, CNN, etc. OTA is what like 1% of the content available from any MSO. I can't understand having a state of the art HD system and settling for a half dozen channels just to keep the Tivo interface.


Yeah, that's why I'm on the fence. My kid's shows I could get used DVD's for off eBay but I like catching a Phx Suns game whenever TNT or ESPN show it. Plus we're HGTV, FoodTV, Discovery junkies too - much of which is only partially available from Amazon/Netflix/Apple, etc...

I think I'm leaning towards DTV's HR24. I just wish I could test drive it for a few days or even use one at a store for 20 min's or so. I talked to a DTV sales rep today and he was telling me that there's no retail stores in all of DFW to see one in action and that I should just order it and when the installer is showing me how to use it, if I don't like it, I can cancel. Not only would I feel bad for the installer who had just spent an hour on my roof and such, but I don't think I'd get a good feel for it in the two minutes he'd want to sit there and watch me "play".


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

eric_n_dfw said:


> Yeah, that's why I'm on the fence. My kid's shows I could get used DVD's for off eBay but I like catching a Phx Suns game whenever TNT or ESPN show it. Plus we're HGTV, FoodTV, Discovery junkies too - much of which is only partially available from Amazon/Netflix/Apple, etc...


it is not digital or HD but I get all that on extended basic from TWC - course the teams they show here are different


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

You forgot another option that could possibly solve your problems and offer you far more flexibility. By now you've probably heard about the cablecard tuners being introduced by Ceton and SiliconDust. The Ceton tuners have finally gone into production and should be shipping shortly. They have a lot of pre-orders to fill so there's no telling how soon the tuners will become available to the general public. The SD tuners are still being certified by CableLabs and still have to undergo extensive beta testing before being released into the wild, so don't expect to see them anytime soon.

The point here is that you could build yourself a Home Theater PC with Windows 7 Media Ceter (included in most versions of Win 7 at no extra cost) and install the Ceton tuner. Get a media extender, such as the new X-Box 360 or one of the older Linksys DMA2100/2200 models or similar variant. The Ceton model hosts four tuners and only requires a single M-card.

Win 7 and the Ceton tuner will allow you to record everything you currently subscribe to with your Tivos. The Windows Media Extender will allow you to share the tuners remotely as well as any content that's on the HTPC. You'd have to check and see if the flagged content is available via the extenders. The Green Button forums are probably your best source for info on Windows Media Center.

Windows Media Center not only allows your PC to become a full-fledged DVR but it will also play back any type of media files, DVDs, and Blu-Ray discs. You can also access online sources such as NetFlix, Hulu, and many others.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

You can use PlayOn to stream Netflix to the HR2x.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

I have considered the Windows Media center --> XBox 360 idea, but figured the cablecard pairing and tuning adapter issues would be no better than on my Tivo.

Also, I haven't had a Windows PC in the house in a decade, all my machines have been Linux and Mac OS X since Win2k. I'd probably have to go buy a new motherboard, CPU, RAM, etc... The cost of building that out + the media extender + the potential for wife-unfriendlyness of the setup makes it seem less appealing.

If I stay with TWC, I think the Tivo is still the best option.


----------



## dallastx (Sep 27, 2007)

Since you haven't mentioned it, I guess that Verizon FiOS isn't an option.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

One thing I love about my TivoHD is it's dual OTA ATSE tuners. I like using them when possible because of the better picture quality it gives you.

Also, while I had excellent reception when I used to have DTV in the past, the few times it would break up on me was during hail storms and having OTA access to local news would be nice. (Although, I suppose my TVs' tuners would do the job as I would be wanting live TV anyway at those times anyway.)

Does anyone here know if the DTV AM21 add-on works well? I assume it's a single tuner, which is not a big deal to me I guess.

Edit Added: I guess there are some reported issues with the AM21 with the HR24: http://www.satelliteguys.us/directv-technical-discussions/218572-those-you-hr24-am21.html


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

dallastx said:


> Since you haven't mentioned it, I guess that Verizon FiOS isn't an option.


I wish.

I'm in a UVerse neighborhood, FIOS is available about 2 miles north of me, but not here.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Another question for you H2x DVR users: do they have wishlist-like functionality.

For instance, I have a Tivo wishlist now that records any "Sports:Basketball" showing that is in HD and has "Phoenix" or "Suns" in the keywords or title.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

eric_n_dfw said:


> Another question for you H2x DVR users: do they have wishlist-like functionality.
> 
> For instance, I have a Tivo wishlist now that records any "Sports:Basketball" showing that is in HD and has "Phoenix" or "Suns" in the keywords or title.


I don't use it but my understanding is they support just about any query possible. dbstalk would get you better answers. i will warn you that you will not like the HR UI for the first month you use it. it is different from tivo and you will start off expecting things to work a certain way. once you get use to it being different it isn't bad.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> You forgot another option that could possibly solve your problems and offer you far more flexibility. By now you've probably heard about the cablecard tuners being introduced by Ceton and SiliconDust. ...


Which will also have the CCI flag issue.

Other DVR vendors aren't going to get away with ignoring the flag any more than TiVo can.

Since the problem lies with Time Warner, you have to decidce to not do business with Time Warner. Go OTA or SD. Cancel your subscription or only subscribe to the basic tiers..and - although it'll be spitting in to the wind - let them know why.


----------



## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

eric_n_dfw said:


> I wish.
> 
> I'm in a UVerse neighborhood, FIOS is available about 2 miles north of me, but not here.


Have you checked lately? There have been a few places in Texas where Verizon has moved a little into AT&T country. Probably not, as it has only been a few places, but worth keeping an eye on it.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

netringer said:


> Which will also have the CCI flag issue. The CableCARDS are what are setting the flag.


 correct that CCI flags will be treated the same on media center.
Incorrect that the cablecard sets the flag - all the card does is map channels and decrypt channels that need it.

The flag comes across in the content and the software on the system will make note of the flag and take actions as the system was programmed to. In Windows that code is in the kernel itself and the reason why cablelabs certified Ceton hardware and likely SD hardware next.
IN the TiVo that code is in tivoapp.exe I think but that is checked at startup to ensure no one changed it.

Cablelabs requires that software code to honor the CCI flags be in place and hard to knock out as part of getting certified for cable cards.

PS - for media center the poster was implying that you can stream copy protected content via the one media extender currently out there - an Xbox.


----------



## Grumock (Dec 16, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> The point here is that you could build yourself a Home Theater PC with Windows 7 Media Ceter (included in most versions of Win 7 at no extra cost) and install the Ceton tuner. Get a media extender, such as the new X-Box 360 or one of the older Linksys DMA2100/2200 models or similar variant. The Ceton model hosts four tuners and only requires a single M-card.
> 
> Win 7 and the Ceton tuner will allow you to record everything you currently subscribe to with your Tivos. The Windows Media Extender will allow you to share the tuners remotely as well as any content that's on the HTPC.


The only problem i see in your logic is that you still have to deal with SDV, & the cisco TA only supports 2 streams of video currently. The Motorola TAs I believe only support 3.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

With media center unlike moxi you can connect as many tuning adapters as you need. The primary ceton tester on the greenbutton has 3 since he was testing the 6 tuner version.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Grumock said:


> The only problem i see in your logic is that you still have to deal with SDV, & the cisco TA only supports 2 streams of video currently. The Motorola TAs I believe only support 3.


The Ceton tuner supports SDV. According to the folks at Ceton, you can use two adapters with the Ceton tuner and get full functionality from all four tuners.



netringer said:


> Which will also have the CCI flag issue.
> 
> Other DVR vendors aren't going to get away with ignoring the flag any more than TiVo can.
> 
> Since the problem lies with Time Warner, you have to decidce to not do business with Time Warner. Go OTA or SD. Cancel your subscription or only subscribe to the basic tiers..and - although it'll be spitting in to the wind - let them know why.


I'm on FIOS so I don't know how the CCI flag affects the use of a media extender (Verizon doesn't flag our channels and I can currently view only OTA channels via my extender). I was hoping that since the source material is essentially being viewed from the primary PC it wouldn't be a problem.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The DirecTV AM21 works well, and is dual-tuner. It is a better tuner than what was included in the HR10-250 and HR20.


----------



## StevesWeb (Dec 26, 2008)

eric_n_dfw said:


> Any of you fellow Tivo-Heads made the jump to the HR24? Is it as good as the reviews and DTV people make it out to be? I've got a little under 2 weeks before my new Tivo's 30 day cancellation window expires so if I'm going to DTV I probably need to order soon.


I'm in a similar situation living in an area afflicted with Time Wanker. I had been using a TiVoHD for OTA when I decided to move it to another room and get a TiVo Premiere for the TV room. I was also surprised to find that Time Wanker was marking everything with copy protection.

On Saturday I had DirecTV installed with an HR24 DVR and it is fantastic. It certainly has the fastest UI I've ever seen on a DVR. I am very favorably impressed with everything about this DVR, it's fantastic, but I'll be keeping my TiVos and using Time Wanker for Internet access and some additional channels. Two of my favorite channels, BBC America and IFC, are not available in HD from DirecTV at this time so I'll be paying the big bucks to both companies for a while yet.

I still dream about the day when we finally get FiOS in our city so I can tell Time Wanker to disconnect their crappy 20th century coax from my house.


----------



## Squeege96 (May 1, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I record TWC analog and use OTA for HD content - and of course also use Netflix. I rip the DVDs I get via netflix to my PC and use PyTiVo to watch the DVDs on any TiVo DVR in the house.
> Obviously I think that is the way to go. Extended basic cable from TWC is all I pay for. When/if my area goes all digital I will rethink things.


Eric,

I think you might want to revisit Zeo's suggestion. Using PyTivo, you can still get MRV, and using a site like TVtorrents.com, you have access to any highdef shows out on the Web. I'd keep a basic package to watch sports.

BTW, I think that Time Warner is terrible for flagging shows like that. I am not a fan of that policy.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

I use PyTivo today for some shows I cannot get in the US (Top Gear, uncut BBC versions for instance) and have used it for DVD rips in the past, but I've never gotten an RSS feed reader to auto torrent down my shows for me.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Except as an aside by innocentfreak, no one has mentioned Moxi DVR. It gets around the "Copy Once" CCI issue by doing something that TiVo should be doing _anyway_ for MRV, which is streaming it in a secure fashion without storing it. Streaming can start pretty much immediately and you can randomly access the entire recording without downloading all of it first.

There are also cheaper Moxi client boxes with no HDDs or tuners (at half the price of their DVRs) with which you can watch any recordings on Moxi DVRs connected to your LAN as well as use their tuners to watch live television.

As a TiVo user and fan, I hate to suggest it, but it's a solution .


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Moxy 2 room bundle = $799 and I'd still be dealing with TWC's CableCard/TA ineptitude. 

Let's say I eBay my 2 Tivo's for $200 plus the $25/month I'd save in Tivo subscription fees ($600), I'm still $199 in the hole after 24 months.


----------



## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

netringer said:


> Which will also have the CCI flag issue.


yes but you would have MRV with the extender. The tivo's cant use extenders.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

I think I'm going to pull the trigger and go for a pair of HR24's, that would give me the equivelent of 4 tuners and ~100 hours of HD storage total if I don't add an eSata drive to them or something.

Should end up being around $99 up front and I'm going to see if I can get them to throw in an AM21 ATSE tuner box for free.

Using the Costco deal, I'll end up with another $180 back in a Costco gift card so the price seems right.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I believe the HR24 still has the 50 show limit per box so something just to be aware of depending on how many shows you record.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> I believe the HR24 still has the 50 show limit per box so something just to be aware of depending on how many shows you record.


Yeah, I noticed that - but I think we hover between 25 and 30 most of the time so I should be okay.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

That 50 limit is on the number of "series links" (aka season passes) - not number of recorded programs. Read up on the Boolean search capability which far outshines TiVo's limited filters.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mikeyts said:


> Except as an aside by innocentfreak, no one has mentioned Moxi DVR. It gets around the "Copy Once" CCI issue by doing something that TiVo should be doing _anyway_ for MRV, which is streaming it in a secure fashion without storing it. Streaming can start pretty much immediately and you can randomly access the entire recording without downloading all of it first.
> 
> There are also cheaper Moxi client boxes with no HDDs or tuners (at half the price of their DVRs) with which you can watch any recordings on Moxi DVRs connected to your LAN as well as use their tuners to watch live television.
> 
> As a TiVo user and fan, I hate to suggest it, but it's a solution .


yeah it sort of fits here. The OP seemed more inclined to do away with TWC and liked OTA nad netflix streaming - those two things work better on a TiVo than a Moxi. Now you can see Huluplus on a Moxi but only with playon on a PC - which also gives Netflix streaming but you lose HD for netflix and the whole setup is dependant on playon folks as a 3rd party.

So really the OP only benefits from Moxi if he stays with TWC digital tier and then he goes from 4 tuners back to 3 with no OTA in the mix. This scenario really highlights the strengths and weaknesses of both DVRs really well


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ...which also gives Netflix streaming but you lose HD for netflix and the whole setup is dependant on playon folks as a 3rd party.


Sort of unrelated but we do netflix streaming using our bluray player. it calculates the image quality possible before starting the streaming process. the last few movies we have watched it has run the meter all the way up and said "HD" quality. I haven't really done a comparison to see what that means but the picture looked decent.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Sort of unrelated but we do netflix streaming using our bluray player. it calculates the image quality possible before starting the streaming process. the last few movies we have watched it has run the meter all the way up and said "HD" quality. I haven't really done a comparison to see what that means but the picture looked decent.


the HD level of netflix is not really HD but a compressed approximation of HD 
still the playon software can not stream that level of quality and the stream of netflix via playon needs to be the SD level.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

While nowhere near OTA or BluRay, I have seen some very high quality HD streams from Netflix via my Tivo HD. Often their HD stream is better than some of the TWC channels. ie: Lost in HD over Netflix is pretty dang good - but the last time Animal Planet HD showed Planet Earth it was atrocious!


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

eric_n_dfw said:


> While nowhere neat OTA or BluRay, I have seen some very high quality HD streams from Netflix via my Tivo HD. Often their HD stream is better than some of the TWC channels. ie: Lost in HD over Netflix is pretty dang good - but the last time Animal Planet HD showed Planet Earth it was atrocious!


good point, I was going all theory there. Like you I go with what works for my eyes and convenience. I find Netflix streaming to suit me very well but then I have stereo sound which would kill the purists out there.


----------



## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

eric_n_dfw said:


> Moxy 2 room bundle = $799 and I'd still be dealing with TWC's CableCard/TA ineptitude.
> 
> Let's say I eBay my 2 Tivo's for $200 plus the $25/month I'd save in Tivo subscription fees ($600), I'm still $199 in the hole after 24 months.


I don't know about TWC but Comcast charges around $10/month for an additional outlet and cable card. With the Moxi mate there is no extra charge.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Netflix HD streams should be better--others have managed much better PQ and AQ with no higher bandwidth requirement. Vudu's lower-quality-tier HD needs no more than a steady 4 Mbps connection for 720p24 with digital surround. I've recently seen some BD rips at 3 Mbps with 620 Kbps digital surround audio which looked better than Netflix HD streams. I have no idea what was used to create those rips.

To their credit, Netflix plans to introduce digital surround to their stream some time this year.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Well since this thread is completely off topic now, last night we watched the movie "outsourced". It was great. Comedy about a guy that goes to India to setup a call center for a large american company. Eye opening look at parts of India.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Well since this thread is completely off topic now, last night we watched the movie "outsourced". It was great. Comedy about a guy that goes to India to setup a call center for a large american company. Eye opening look at parts of India.


most of the reviews of that show said it was a comedy and thus not really trying to get what India is like accurate.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Ok, not sure where we went off OT since it all was about my options should I dump TWC, but back ON topic...

I went ahead and ordered a pair of HR24's from DTV. Not sure of my install date yet. The sales agent, for some reason, wasn't able to add an AM21 OTA tuner to the order so she added in the comment/remarks area for the installer to bring one (in addition to ensure they only bring HR24's) Maybe I'll score one of those free too! (wishful thinking, I'm sure)

I've noticed a lot of forum threads about comparing Tivo's features to HR2x's but not much in the way of video's, maybe I'll video-blog some demos of those while I have both systems in house.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

do you need the AM21? if your locals are available on the SAT there is no need for it.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> most of the reviews of that show said it was a comedy and thus not really trying to get what India is like accurate.


yep. but i'm pretty sure the actual city scenes you see in this movie are accurate enough. it isn't a documentary. but it was filmed there.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> do you need the AM21? if your locals are available on the SAT there is no need for it.


2 reasons I want one:

Nice to have OTA tuners integrated when a hail storm hits rather than flipping to my TV's OTA tuner.
High motion (sports) OTA HD picture quality is (usually) better than satellite or (most) cable because it is usually sent at a higher bitrate. Maybe DirecTV has gotten better over the years, but sports OTA always look better on a big screen than TWC has given me and from what I've seen of DTV in the stores. (less picture breakup and macro-blocking in dark areas, etc...)
I know, from other forum posts here and elsewhere, that this is a highly subjective issue. I have a pretty big screen (58") and 20/20 vision, so compression artifacts are something that bug me a lot.

Who knows, maybe I'll find DTV's local channel PQ to be great, but if they'll throw one in free, why not use it?

With basketball, hockey and football on break, I don't have any recordings to compare right now but I will say that for standard, low motion TV, TWC and OTA are pretty much the same. I'll set up a Nascar recording shootout to compare I guess.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I don't think they will throw in one for free if you don't need it. The local installers will not have them if all your locals are on the SAT.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I don't think they will throw in one for free if you don't need it. The local installers will not have them if all your locals are on the SAT.


Probably true, but thought I'd give it a shot.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

A note on the order to bring only HR24s will be ignored.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

stevel said:


> A note on the order to bring only HR24s will be ignored.


Possibly, but if they bring anything else, I just tell the installer to take a hike and cancel the order.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

As predicted by SteveL, they installer arrived with HR22's on the truck so I sent him away with a rescheduled install date of this Thursday. He said they are completely out of HR24 and H24 equipment but are expecting a new truck of them today or tomorrow. Hopefully they'll have some on Thursday.

Thank goodness I have a job that I can work from home when needed!


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Install #2: The guy just called and said he's on his way and does have 2 HR24's so I guess we are a "go" for install today!


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Thnaks for the updates - these threads are much more informative when we see the results as well as the decision factors


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

TimeWarner salesperson just called to try to sell me additional bundle services - while I'm sitting here staring at the DirecTV van and hearing the installer on my roof!

I basically told him to save his breath as I was to be canceling service in a day or two. When he asked if I was unsatisfied, I just said, "Yes, because you seem to treat Tivo users like dirt, good bye."

Gotta love divine coincidences like that.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

eric_n_dfw said:


> When he asked if I was unsatisfied, I just said, "Yes, because you seem to treat Tivo users like dirt, good bye."


Direct TV won't allow the use of the Premiere or HD at all. You can watch and record with Tivo on TWC. Only MRV is limited. Isn't Direct TV treating Tivo owners worse than TWC?


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> Direct TV won't allow the use of the Premiere or HD at all. You can watch and record with Tivo on TWC. Only MRV is limited. Isn't Direct TV treating Tivo owners worse than TWC?


Won't allow use of Premiere or HD? Of course not - DBS signals are not compatible with Tivo's and/or CableCards and I've waited as long as I can stand for Tivo to get their new HD DirecTivo done. (And by the underwhelming feature set on the Premier, it appears to be Tivo that is taking forever to deliver, not DirecTV.)

Don't get me wrong, I *hate* leaving Tivo, but unless I go to OTA and internet streaming only, I don't have much other choice.

Also, I figure about the time my 24 month DTV commitment is up, that DirecTivo will finally be available and the bugs worked out of it and maybe I'll switch back to it.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

It's official, just called TWC and Tivo. Will have to take my CableCards and Tuning Adapters to the TWC office tomorrow.

The HR24's seem pretty nice, the installer is going to have to come back out though. They weren't able to get the ondemand stuff working and, apparently, according to the latest training discussions, they said that even though the HR24's aren't supposed to need a external "DECA" unit, they apparently do. He didn't have one in his truck but said he'll get one and come back out tonight or tomorrow at the latest.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Attached is a picture of the original, Sony dish I put up in 1999 and the new one they just installed. I was a little disappointed that they couldn't put it on the chimney like the old one but they said the HD one is to heavy to mount that way.


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

eric_n_dfw said:


> It's official, just called TWC and Tivo. Will have to take my CableCards and Tuning Adapters to the TWC office tomorrow.
> 
> The HR24's seem pretty nice, the installer is going to have to come back out though. They weren't able to get the ondemand stuff working and, apparently, according to the latest training discussions, they said that even though the HR24's aren't supposed to need a external "DECA" unit, they apparently do. He didn't have one in his truck but said he'll get one and come back out tonight or tomorrow at the latest.


The HR24s don't need DECA, as it's built in, but you do need a DECA to hook up to your router. This is usually called out on the work order as an ICK, an internet connection kit, and also includes the splitter and power supply. VOD is great, and has lots of 1080p movies.

I strongly recommend you join or at least peruse the DBSTalk.com forums. Every bit of information you'll need to know about the HR24s and DirecTV is either there or can be asked about.

And finally, absolutely everything you could do with the old DirecTiVo, you can do with the HR24, and as a bonus, all of the bugs are fixed and enhancements implemented. The GUI isn't quite as elegant, but it is relentlessly utilitarian and consistent. Oddly enough, the only thing I really miss are the beeps and boops.


----------



## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> Direct TV won't allow the use of the Premiere or HD at all. You can watch and record with Tivo on TWC. Only MRV is limited. Isn't Direct TV treating Tivo owners worse than TWC?


You can thank Rupert Murdoch for that. His NDS crusade while he owned DirecTV resulted in the loss of the TiVo contract, but now that he's out of the picture, a new HD DirecTivo is in the works. Hopefully by the first of the year. It's been delayed twice...


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

balboa dave said:


> The HR24s don't need DECA, as it's built in, but you do need a DECA to hook up to your router. This is usually called out on the work order as an ICK, an internet connection kit, and also includes the splitter and power supply. VOD is great, and has lots of 1080p movies.


Yes, that's what the installer said - but the HR24 were supposed to be the first model that didn't need a DECA at the router - you are supposed to be able to plug ethernet into them just like you would a Tivo or any other network set-top-box. As for the order, the sales rep said they didn't need the ICK because of this so it wasn't on there.



balboa dave said:


> I strongly recommend you join or at least peruse the DBSTalk.com forums. Every bit of information you'll need to know about the HR24s and DirecTV is either there or can be asked about.


Thanks, I've been doing so. Mainly I'm posting things here as a reference for anyone else in the same quandary as myself.



balboa dave said:


> And finally, absolutely everything you could do with the old DirecTiVo, you can do with the HR24, and as a bonus, all of the bugs are fixed and enhancements implemented. The GUI isn't quite as elegant, but it is relentlessly utilitarian and consistent. Oddly enough, the only thing I really miss are the beeps and boops.


From the day of playing with it so far (sans VOD) I agree. The only 2 things I miss are Tivo's guide list view and the "beeps and boops". I haven't yet set up any boolean searches but will be doing so today to replace a few wish-lists I had.


----------



## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

balboa dave said:


> And finally, absolutely everything you could do with the old DirecTiVo, you can do with the HR24, and as a bonus, all of the bugs are fixed and enhancements implemented. The GUI isn't quite as elegant, but it is relentlessly utilitarian and consistent. Oddly enough, the only thing I really miss are the beeps and boops.


So there is no longer a limit of 50 season passes?


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

eric_n_dfw said:


> Yes, that's what the installer said - but the HR24 were supposed to be the first model that didn't need a DECA at the router - you are supposed to be able to plug ethernet into them just like you would a Tivo or any other network set-top-box. As for the order, the sales rep said they didn't need the ICK because of this so it wasn't on there.


If you have Whole Home, then your system is running SWiM. This means a single coax cable plugged into your HR24 can carry both video and internet. The ICK is used to connect your server or internet to SWiM. I think there are other ways of connecting the internet, but this is by far the simplest, and it works great.


> Thanks, I've been doing so. Mainly I'm posting things here as a reference for anyone else in the same quandary as myself.
> 
> From the day of playing with it so far (sans VOD) I agree. The only 2 things I miss are Tivo's guide list view and the "beeps and boops". I haven't yet set up any boolean searches but will be doing so today to replace a few wish-lists I had.


Tivo's guide list view is the best, but in the D* guide, arrow to the left so the channel is highlighted, then press INFO. You'll get a complete listing for that station. Not as good, but it'll do.


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

HazelW said:


> So there is no longer a limit of 50 season passes?


The limit is 50 per recorder. With Whole Home service, you can add more recorders, up to 16 tuners I think, which is 8 recorders, and watch any recording from any recorder. I had over 400 SPs on my 2 old DirecTiVos, but am not having a problem with my two recorders. I should point out that adding new SPs (Series Links in D* terms), or re-ordering them, is instantaneous.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Well, it looks like everything is switched over and stabilized, overall I'd say it was a fairly positive experience except for a couple of issues around the $29/month "rebate" and MRV + VOD issues.

Here's the blow-by-blow of the install experience:

Tue 8/3 - I order service from DTV CSR: 2 DVR's w/ whole home DVR, VOD and "Ultimate Choice" package. Discounts: "Free HD For Life" = $10/month, new customer $29/month for 12 months, referral discount $10/month for 10 months.
Fri 8/6 - CSR had told me to register online for the $29/month "rebate", but web site still not letting me do so. Do'ing so before the install date guarantees the discount on the 1st month's bill. I open a ticket via support desk. Later that day, in response to a Twitter DM, a CSR calls me and says the refund department will take care of it.
Mon 8/9 - Installer arrives promptly near the beginning of the 8-12 time frame, but had no HR24 model DVRs. He was very polite and understanding about why I want them and handles rescheduling the install for later that week.
Thu 8/12 - 2nd installer arrives around 9am and has the HR24's. He and his coworker install the new dish on my roof, a 4-way splitter, the SWiM PI and run coax to my 2nd floor game room pretty quickly.
They had some issues getting MRV to work, apparently because they initially had booted the HR24's up with my home ethernet attached. Eventually, after a few restarts, the MRV was working but they couldn't get internet and MRV to work together. After a call to a senior rep, they said that a DECA module should have been ordered but hadn't been (CSR mistake I suppose) and that they didn't have one in either of their vans so he would have to get one to me the next day.
Shortly before they finished the dish and wire installation, the web site finally let me register for the rebate, so hopefully I'll get that on the 1st bill.
BTW, unlike TWC, non of these guys were in their own pickup's or anything - DTV corporate VAN's with uniform shirts. They also seemed to know their stuff even though one of them had only been with DTV for a couple of weeks; a testament to good training I suppose. 
Once I was up and running I called TWC and Tivo to cancel my services; TWC was pretty quick, Tivo took a little longer as they hoped I would stick with them for OTA+Streaming or transfer my service to a friend or family but the CSR was friendly, not pushy.

Fri 8/13 - Per my instruction, the DECA was on my doorstep and, using info from DBSTalk forums, I figured out how to install it. I was having issues, however, with MRV loosing connection whenever the DECA was online. I tried a few different configurations with to no avail. The installer had told me to call him if necessary but I didn't have time to work on it very long so I disconnected the DECA until the next morning.
Sat 8/14 - After reading a bit more on DBSTalk and SateliteGuys forums, I eventually did a menu based reset on both DVRs and they started working properly and have been since, with both MRV and VOD working great.

I hope this info proves valuable for anyone else that decides to switch to DTV.

Thanks to all here who helped me make the decision and/or work through the process.

-Eric

PS: I'll post my review of the HR24's vs. TivoHD when I get time later.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I'm actually contemplating doing Netflix, OTA, etc only. All because the wife, to my surprise, is in love with the Netflix. It happened when cable was away for a few weeks before, during and after our move.

WE just got FIOS and she isn't very fond of the FIOS TV guide, menus and remote. Can't say I am either. 

She is letting me return a FIOS box which will save $10/month. She hasn't touched it in the BR for weeks. 

FIOS DVR is free for 6 months so that and the cheap deal we got will keep FIOS TV here until then at least. I mean $70 for phone, internet and TV? NOt that we use the phone, but still a great deal. Internet alone is $45. 

But if I can give up some sports and catch a few shows on Amazon or iTunes or wait for them on DVD then we will make the switch. 

Would miss cable during say NBA playoff time or perhaps March Madness next year or during Hockey playoffs. That's when I really start to tune in to sports. Football luckily is mostly on the networks so that is covered. Still would miss MNF.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

We did that for about 9 months, had had TWC for 4 or 5 months and decided to save some money. We watched a lot of Netflix (5 seasons of Lost) and a ton of OTA sitcoms that we had never really watched in the 90's (Friends, Fraizer, etc...) but eventually we got bored and went back to TWC (until last week that is)


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Following up to my install timeline - I got my first 2 bills from DTV, they added $25 to my install bill for the DECA ICK, which I'm not happy about since the original CSR said I didn't need one and I did the install of it myself.

Secondly, my first monthly bill was missing the "HD For Life" $10 credit and the referral $10 credit. It also didn't have the $29 rebate credit, but that didn't surprise me. I emailed them and got a reply this morning:

$29 Rebate will start on my next bill
$10 HD For Life credit will start on my next bill and I think they are going to refund the first bill - but the wording in the email was vague. I asked them to clarify that.
They tell me I'm not elligible for the referral credit because I supposedly didn't register for it when I ordered. Funny, because I have the notes I took during the call with the CSR where I had to walk over and get additional info from my friend for them to apply the referral credit. I replied about that too. Hopefully I'll get resolution quickly.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

They emailed me back confirming the $29 rebate starts on my next bill and a $10 refund for the missing HD for life has been posted.

Unfortunately they are maintaing that somehow I am not eligible for the $10/month referral discount; now they are mentioning something about the fact that I signed up via the Costco 800 number instead of some other number. I've sent them back another email challenging this since the CSR took all the referral info and told me I'd be getting that discount.

It's really too bad I'm having all these billing issues because the service (picture quality, DVR, etc) is actually quite nice.

UPDATE: Late last week, after I posted a thumbs-down sort of message on Twitter, they called back and are giving both me and my referring friend a $100 credit on our next bill to make up for the mixup. Props to DTV for making it right.

PS: I know this is a lot of talk about a non-Tivo service, but I want anyone else thinking about switching to know how it went for me - my recommendation is to record your call with their CSR, I wish I had done so.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

I'll post a more detailed review later, but here's my review (cross posted from a reply here: http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8099624#post8099624)

My main fears about the HR24 DVR was it's speed/responsiveness, UI and wish-list capabilities. The speed is as good as my Tivo HD, the UI is fine (miss the Tivo list view a little) and I haven't had a chance to play with the boolean search but from what I've read, it looks like it will fit the bill.

No KidZone is a little sad (I have an 8 and 3 year old), but our game room TV has the Parental Controls turned on and it's adequate - they still see all of the recorded titles and guide, but cannot play or preview anything outside of the rating limits. We usually are in/nearby the living room TV, so we're not too worried about it - plus we don't record much that would be a problem.

Netflix and Amazon streaming is supported by my BluRay player so nothing missing there.

OTA channels are sent by the satellite and, contrary to my prior believe, I find DTV's feed to be of the exact same picture quality as the antenna. I still have the antenna hooked into my TV's for times when severe storms that may cause DBS signal fade too. (In which case I'll only be caring about live weather news anyway, so DVR is not critical)

I'm very happy with the pair of DTV HR24-500's that I've had for a couple of weeks now and, although I had a couple of billing issues, DTV has corrected them all.

Oh, and I was worried that the picture quality would be poor compared to OTA and TWC... big no on that. I've seen less macro-blocking and breakup on DTV that TWC and it's as good as OTA on my 1080p, 58" screen so I'm *very* happy from the PQ point of view.

Sorry Tivo, I'll miss the little guy in the corner of my menu's, maybe I'll see you again in a couple of years on that new DirecTivo. (if it ever get's released)


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

eric_n_dfw said:


> .......... I know this is a lot of talk about a non-Tivo service, but I want anyone else thinking about switching to know how it went for me - my recommendation is to record your call with their CSR, I wish I had done so.


I appreciate your posts. I am a borderline-satisfied TWC/TiVo user and value this information since I want to reserve going DTV as a contingency plan. One thing I still wonder about is the reliability of the DTV DVR, i.e., percentage of missed recordings. It's probably too early for you to know that, of course. And it wouldn't have to be perfect to be better than my current TiVo setup.

I've never had satellite so I also wonder about how they are going to run cable without tearing up my house, plus the dish has to be placed so it can't be seen from the street (homeowner's association) which means longer cable runs. Of course I could probably come up with half a dozen photos of other association homes where the dish can be seen from the street, but my personal taste is for it not to be too obvious.


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

dlfl said:


> One thing I still wonder about is the reliability of the DTV DVR, i.e., percentage of missed recordings.


I've had 3 HR20's and 1 HR21 for over 2 years. I can't remember the last time one of them missed a recording. Maybe once a year I have to restart one because of acting a little flaky. The restart always seems to fix it the problem.

My only real complaint is they could be faster and more repsonsive, but I understand the new HR24 solves that if you can get one.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

dlfl said:


> I've never had satellite so I also wonder about how they are going to run cable without tearing up my house, plus the dish has to be placed so it can't be seen from the street (homeowner's association) which means longer cable runs. Of course I could probably come up with half a dozen photos of other association homes where the dish can be seen from the street, but my personal taste is for it not to be too obvious.


My HOA has the same rule, but I believe there are always exceptions if you have nowhere else to put it. (I fortunately do).

The installers did a nice job, I'll snap some pictures of it later and post. They had to bring wire wall the way from one side of the house to the other and did it without making a mess.


----------



## ripple (Aug 25, 2010)

dlfl said:


> ...the dish has to be placed so it can't be seen from the street (homeowner's association) which means longer cable runs. Of course I could probably come up with half a dozen photos of other association homes where the dish can be seen from the street, but my personal taste is for it not to be too obvious.





eric_n_dfw said:


> My HOA has the same rule, but I believe there are always exceptions if you have nowhere else to put it. (I fortunately do).


I'm in the process of transitioning away from D* and over to FIOS, but I'll likely leave my dish up since it's not very obtrusive (and who knows what I'll want to be watching in 2 years?) Since I went through this process with my HOA, some notes:

The HOA issue is best dealt with (assuming they want to pre-approve all exterior changes) by sending them a note that states you *intend* to put the antenna in a particular location but that the actual install location may differ (and the antenna may be visible from the street) if required to obtain adequate signal strength. Do *NOT* bother to put in a package for review by the covenants committee, etc. See the FCC Regulations (n00b can't post the URL, but Google for "fcc antenna regulations" and look for URL ending in otard.html) for specific details, but basically keep in mind that the HOA almost certainly has *no* legal legs on which to stand--keeping in mind that you'd probably rather avoid fighting battles. What I found was that telling them, "I'll try to do it your way" worked best, combined with citing the FCC language "local regulations that require a person to obtain a permit or approval prior to installation create unreasonable delay and are generally prohibited"... Discussions with the installer basically implied that since there's an amp/pre-amp built in at the antenna before going out to cables, any run of up to 200' (possibly more) was really no issue--the big question is visibility of the southern sky.


----------



## emkorial (Jan 7, 2009)

I thought it was pretty simple to hack a Tivo to ignore the CCI?


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

emkorial said:


> I thought it was pretty simple to hack a Tivo to ignore the CCI?


Sure, if you consider de-soldering a PROM chip from the motherboard, programming another PROM chip with modded firmware, and then soldering the new PROM chip back onto the motherboard "pretty simple".


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

steve614 said:


> Sure, if you consider de-soldering a PROM chip from the motherboard, programming another PROM chip with modded firmware, and then soldering the new PROM chip back onto the motherboard "pretty simple".


Yep. I considered it but opted not to. If there were a soft-mod like I had done on my old DirecTivo I'd have been all over it.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

steve614 said:


> Sure, if you consider de-soldering a PROM chip from the motherboard, programming another PROM chip with modded firmware, and then soldering the new PROM chip back onto the motherboard "pretty simple".


and that only lets you go and then do the hack. Simple for some who solder all the time maybe.


----------



## 230 (Nov 3, 1999)

I have two HR20-700's and have no speed complaints, so the HR24 should be that much better. I started with a 14 hour phillips in 2000, and my wife and I instantly fell for tivo. So I swapped the hard drive and never looked back.

I've been patiently waiting for the new tivo/directv box, but I am growing fond of directv's boxes.

I am partially disabled and get around the house with a walker. I spend some of my waking hours in bed. My theater and living room are not close to my bedroom, where I have a HTPC with a 24" monitor mounted on a swing arm on the wall next to the bed. So I have a blu ray drive, HD DVD drive from XBOX, a killer set of Senheiser headphones , and THE killer app DIRECTV2PC! A 1.5TB drive, and no need to worry about pc tuners. I know they can be much more powerful than what my little box can do, but for me, it's perfect! I control the DVRs housekeeping with a slingbox.

Having said all that, I still have 2 HR10-250's for my wife and daughter. My 9-year-old son has moved to the HR20. The tech runs strong in him!


----------



## Scaevola (Dec 8, 2008)

EJ said:


> I have two HR20-700's and have no speed complaints, so the HR24 should be that much better. I started with a 14 hour phillips in 2000, and my wife and I instantly fell for tivo. So I swapped the hard drive and never looked back.
> 
> I've been patiently waiting for the new tivo/directv box, but I am growing fond of directv's boxes.
> 
> ...


Slightly curious are you running a standard Win OS on that htpc or did you parlay into something like MythTv or another psuedo htpc distro. I'm interestd in pursing some of your course(I just want it to work with my TiVo!). But also worried about the CC bytes issue that seems to be cropping up more and more.


----------



## 230 (Nov 3, 1999)

Just win7 64bit with Totalmedia theatre that sees both BR and HD DVD. I don't use myth tv, or any kind of tuner through my pc. That's why DIRECTV2PC is so important to me.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the "CC bytes" problem.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Well, it's been almost 2 months on DirecTV now. I posted a mini-review earlier here and nothing much has changed; the service is rock solid, just as it was for me when I previously had DTV.

I've still not taken the time to put together any boolean searches to replace my old Wishlists, I supposed I'll give Tivo the win on that feature as it obviously was more intuitive to set up than DTV's. With NBA starting up, I'll probably be setting up one to record Phoenix Suns games though.

One thing I stumbled upon the other day that I like a lot is if a sporting event is blacked out in your area, a menu will pop up offering to search for it on other channels. I don't have their "Sports Pack" so it's not as effective for me right now, but I think that's a very cool feature.

I have had one hardware problem where our 2nd DVR rebooted into a hard drive diagnostic/scan page and took almost a week to scan & repair bad blocks. In the end, though, it appeared to have worked and little-to-no pre-recorded shows were lost. If it had been my primary DVR I would have had them come out; but that one just had my kids shows on it and we don't let them watch very much during the week anyway. I've had drives go out on my Tivo DVRs in the past too - so no big deal. If it happens again, they'll replace it for the cost of shipping since it's leased. (I don't pay the service protection plan which would waive the shipping costs - seems like a waste of money to me)

Overall I am still very happy with my decision to switch.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

In case anyone would care, I'm about 10 months into my 2 year DirecTV contract and am pretty happy with the decision. Earlier I reported that the hard drive on my upstairs (game-room) HR24 unit died - the replacement has been running fine ever since.

The downstairs unit started having problems a month or two ago where it would not reliably my local stations - appeared to be anything on a specific transponder or something. Had some trouble getting the kid on the DirecTV help desk to understand the issue and ended up having to have a truck roll to replace that HR24 unit too. The most annoying part is that the truck roll was going to cost $50 or something and they wouldn't budge on it, no matter how hard I argued and explained my troubleshooting proved it was the DVR and not my dish or cabling.

I finally signed up for the $5.99/month protection plan that covers all tech visits and they had a guy out w/in a couple days who basically listened to what I said and just swapped out for a new HR24. :-/ 

I'm not happy that I'm paying for protection service because of an issue that should have been covered by the normal lease warranty but I guess with the hail and wind we get in DFW it's nice to know they'll readjust/replace the dish if it gets out of whack. The bigger, multi-LNB dish seems to be a bit more susceptible to weather or wind than my older Sony, oval, single-LNB one that I had for all those years - it practically took hurricane like weather to break up signal on that puppy! (or maybe it's the MP4 HD stream vs. the old MP2 one)

That issue aside, the DVR interface and performance has been very good - I do miss Tivo's menu/list speed and "bonk" feedback (I know - a lot of people hate that, I like the audible feedback that it received my button pushes). I also still have not taken the time to learn their search language so I've not really replaced my old wish lists - but I didn't have a ton of them anyway. The lack of cable-card problems and TWC technician ineptitude, (all 3 DTV tech's I've had out have been very good), and the fact that we can stream shows between rooms make me very happy with my decision.

When my 1st year discounts run out in August, I'll probably be a little less enthusiastic about it though! 

Another nice thing is boot-up time, not sure on the Premier, but the TivoHD w/ 1TB drive would take seemingly forever to boot - the HR24's are about a minute or so. (not that I have to do this often)

I'm hoping that when my 2 year commitment runs out next summer, that streaming options +OTA will be broad enough to eliminate my need for DTV and may go back to Tivo or maybe an XBox360+Media Center (for OTA) solution. (or whatever is out then)

Oh... one more thing I miss is the ability to download or otherwise play video pod-casts (This Week in Tech, Tekzilla, etc...). Thinking about a Roku or AppleTV for that, plus a better interface for Netflix than my BluRay offers.


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks for the update, Eric. I'm still putting up with missed recordings on SDV channels and an occasional reboot when all channels, or all SDV channels, go missing. But it's nice to know there are reasonable alternatives. My primary concern about going DTV is their financial terms, which seem objectionable to me.

Why do you have to have a service plan on your DVR's? Did you purchase them rather than rent?


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

dlfl said:


> ...My primary concern about going DTV is their financial terms, which seem objectionable to me.
> 
> Why do you have to have a service plan on your DVR's? Did you purchase them rather than rent?


All DTV equipment is leased now-a-days (has been for several years), and they still require a commitment to get discounts on the service.  What's really lame is that they charge you up-front to _lease_ the HD DVRs - although they often offer to waive those fees w/ the 2 year commitment.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

One thing I have noticed that the old Tivo did a much better job of not re-recording season pass episodes that I have seen in the past month or so.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

eric_n_dfw said:


> most annoying part is that the truck roll was going to cost $50 or something and they wouldn't budge on it, no matter how hard I argued and explained my troubleshooting proved it was the DVR and not my dish or cabling.


Do you mean you would have had to pay the $50 even if they came out and found their equipment was malfunctioning?


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> Do you mean you would have had to pay the $50 even if they came out and found their equipment was malfunctioning?


Yep. $50 to get the truck out here.

I supposed I could have fought for a refund after the fact, but I gave up. (they probably hope most people will do the same)


----------



## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

You should be able to replace the original hard drive with a 2TB drive. Just install the drive and the HR24 will format and install everything it needs. I did it with a 1.5 a few years back. 
Is there still a 50 entry limit in the todo list?
Is there still a 50 entry limit on Season Passes.
Can you set up "wish list" without having to run the search every week or so.
I have 150 with list items and would really like to get back to DTV.
How is the slow motion, fast forward, auto back up at the end of FF?


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

johnd01 said:


> You should be able to replace the original hard drive with a 2TB drive. Just install the drive and the HR24 will format and install everything it needs. I did it with a 1.5 a few years back.


The 500gb seems big enough for me, especially since we have 2 DVRs and MRV that works well, so we effectively have 1TB of space.


> Is there still a 50 entry limit in the todo list?
> Is there still a 50 entry limit on Season Passes.


Haven't hit that many items yet I guess, so if there is a problem there, I've not encountered it. 


> Can you set up "wish list" without having to run the search every week or so.
> I have 150 with list items and would really like to get back to DTV.


Yes, but I've still not taken the time to learn DirecTV's wish list search equivalent. TiVo was much more intuitive in this area. I'm told that you can do it though. 


> How is the slow motion, fast forward, auto back up at the end of FF?


All of these, "trick play", features work as well as the TiVo did with the exception of there being no audio feedback when you hit the buttons. Many consider that a feature but I actually liked the audible feedback TiVo gave me on button presses. I don't see any appreciable difference in the functionality or usability though.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

I have been bitten a couple of times last week by something annoying that the HR24 is doing. I used keyword searches to set up recording of both the Arizona/Washington and Texas Tech/Iowa football games and both ended up recording on channels that I don't subscribe to! This even though my guide is set to only show channels I get.


----------



## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

About 4 years ago I was messing with one of my HDVR2s and burnt up a coil on the main board. I then had a SD DTV DVR for about 2 months before I gave up on it and repaired my HDVR2 and sent it back. I have a hard copy of the 150 or so season passes that i tried to enter into the DVR... at 50 it ask me to delete one to make room the the new one. A few weeks later I turned the tv on and saw a show that looked good. I pushed the record button but the DVR ask me to make room in the todo list before it could record the live show. The search looked to me like a stored search so you could look for your program again when you had more guide data.
I had U-veres for 2 months as well and their search looked like a stored search to be run when you were looking for new programing. Saved you from having to enter the search again and again. New matching guide data would not trigger a recording until you ran the search again.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Well, the 2 year experiment is up and I sit tonight watching OTA on a used Tivo Premier I picked up for $45. My DirecTV HR24's are still here, but I suspended my account to see if I can "live" on OTA and streaming sources.

It's looking pretty good so far too. I have an Apple TV downstairs and a Roku XS up. Netflix and iTunes store have more than enough to keep the kids entertained and my wife and I are just tired of paying nearly $100/month for DTV with no premium channels! I certainly will miss some of the college football this fall, but I'm not a sports nut so I think I'll survive.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

eric_n_dfw said:


> It's looking pretty good so far too. I have an Apple TV downstairs and a Roku XS up. Netflix and iTunes store have more than enough to keep the kids entertained and my wife and I are just tired of paying nearly $100/month for DTV with no premium channels! I certainly will miss some of the college football this fall, but I'm not a sports nut so I think I'll survive.


I think you woud have been happier keeping the TiVos and implementing a better solution:



eric_n_dfw said:


> I've been a Tivo user for about 9 years, starting with a heavily *hacked* Hughes HDVR2 DirecTivo and have had a Tivo HD on Time Warner Cable for the last 2 years (no *hacking* on that one, just upgraded the drive to 1TB).


There is your answer.



eric_n_dfw said:


> So, my question to you all is, should I:
> A.)
> B.)
> C.) Dump TWC, keep the Tivo's for OTA and use Netflix + Amazon + HuluPlus, etc...


How about:

D.) Do something about it.


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> I think you woud have been happier keeping the TiVos and implementing a better
> ...
> D.) Do something about it.


Not sure what you mean by that last comment, but what I found is that my prediction that 2 years later (now) the amount of content available via streaming would be good enough to replace paid TV service seems to largely have come true.

In the past two years Netflix, iTunes, Amazon and others have really picked up the ball and offer a ton of TV shows, especially in the kids area.

Also, about 9 months ago, I was able to upgrade my old TivoHD to lifetime for $99 and I turned around and sold it for $350. That pays for the pair of Premier's I now have (only activated one so far) and should I decide to go back to TWC in the future I can finally stream between our two TV's. That wasn't going to be a possibility on the old TivoHD.


----------



## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

eric_n_dfw said:


> In the past two years Netflix, iTunes, Amazon and others have really picked up the ball and offer a ton of TV shows, especially in the kids area.
> 
> Also, about 9 months ago, I was able to upgrade my old TivoHD to lifetime for $99 and I turned around and sold it for $350. That pays for the pair of Premier's I now have (only activated one so far) and should I decide to go back to TWC in the future I can finally stream between our two TV's. That wasn't going to be a possibility on the old TivoHD.


We "cut the cord" about 16 months ago and are pleased. The main TV has a lifetime S3 OLED for OTA and a roku2 for streaming. The 2nd TV has a roku1 and xbox for streaming. I've also set up a WMC PC with a SiliconDreams HD tuner so the 2nd tivo has OTA (through the xbox) and both tvs can access local content through the rokus connecting to the WMC.

$16 / month (netflix and hulu+ subscrptions) sure beats the $141 a month we used to pay DTV. Entire family is happy. For the current shows we just have to see now (that are not available on netflix or hulu+) we just buy an Amazon season pass. Still saving substantial money doing in that.

Good luck. I'll try to answer any questions you may have.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

eric_n_dfw said:


> Not sure what you mean by that last comment


I mean you coud have modified your THDs, just like you did your S2s. 'Not an option for any Premier.



eric_n_dfw said:


> but what I found is that my prediction that 2 years later (now) the amount of content available via streaming would be good enough to replace paid TV service seems to largely have come true.


Not by my estimation. Of course, YMMV, but there is almost nothing on the streaming venues of interest to me that is not already on my server, and searching for that small amount is a tedious, frustrating exercise requiring time I would rather spend watching TV or reading a book. With the TiVos feeding the server with as many as 100 shows a month, the number not on my server, already rather small, is dwindling fast.



eric_n_dfw said:


> In the past two years Netflix, iTunes, Amazon and others have really picked up the ball and offer a ton of TV shows, especially in the kids area.


Well, I can't really speak to kid's programming, since I don't seek that out. I will say that when for six months I had a six-year old living wiht me, rather than wanting variety, he wanted to watch / listen to the same thing over, and over, and over, and over...

I got so sick of Power Rangers, Cathly Lee Gifford, and Barney I wanted to scream. 

Again, of course, YMMV.



eric_n_dfw said:


> Also, about 9 months ago, I was able to upgrade my old TivoHD to lifetime for $99 and I turned around and sold it for $350. That pays for the pair of Premier's I now have (only activated one so far) and should I decide to go back to TWC in the future I can finally stream between our two TV's. That wasn't going to be a possibility on the old TivoHD.


Until one fails and dumps all the programs you had recorded. That, and you never will be able to transfer any video other than the locals to any device of any sort. That's one reason why the Premier I received without additional cost when I changed from TWC to Grande doesn't get used much, although the main reason is the lack of features available on my S3 units and the badly broken design of the Premier. If I were still on TWC and they happend to give me a Premier, it wouldn't be used at all. Grande does not copy protect most of their content, though, so the Premier does see some use.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

With Premiere units the original issue is no longer even a problem. Within the last year TiVo has implemented multi-room streaming which works for all shows even those flagged with the CCI byte.

Dan


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> With Premiere units the original issue is no longer even a problem. Within the last year TiVo has implemented multi-room streaming which works for all shows even those flagged with the CCI byte.


I am not in the least interested in streaming, or for that matter very much in MRV. It's available, of course, but I almost never use it. At least MRV allows for data management and loss prevention, however. MRS is an extremely weak, even pathetic band-aid that does not address the fundamental issues at hand. If a failed hard drive causes a loss of data in a system, and there is no way to vitiate the issue, then the system is an extremely poor one, whatever its purpose. Ditto any system which has definitive limits on expansion. No matter what, sooner or later that drive is going to fail, or else the unit will be replaced for other reasons. Losing all the data at that time is simply not acceptable.

I speak from experience, here, not only as a Telecommunications Engineer, but as a DVR owner. For 9 months I had to live with an unbelievable POS, the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD. The moment TiVo introduced the S3, I bought one. I could hardly have stood another week of dealing with the 8300, but for all its lousy features, it still did record videos and in fact was full of videos I really did not want to lose. Some have still not been re-broadcast. Since there was no way to transfer them, however, they were lost. Anyone who buys a Premier and records CP material will face precisely the same situation every time they upgrade or a unit fails. No, thanks.

Just last week I had a 3T hard drive fail - one that is less than 2 years old. Had that hard drive been on a Premier with none of the videos backed up, I would have lost perhaps 200 or more videos. What was actually lost? Not a single byte.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

DVRs are intended for time shifting not archiving. The data they hold is not critical so the need for backup, for most people, is unnecessary. I've had a TiVo die and lost a bunch of recordings. The ones that were really important I bought or downloaded via BitTorrent, the rest I wrote off.

The problem you describe really only applies to digital pack rats. If that's you then you might be better off getting an HTPC. Although even then CCI protected recordings are locked to a specific set of hardware, so if you upgrade your PC they will no longer be playable.

Dan


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

That's what I was wondering? Whether an HTPC or a DVR, if the content is copy protected there are still restrictions on it. And it can still be lost with a hardware failure.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

On Windows 7 the WTV files it records are locked to the HTPC that recoded them if the CCI bit is set. So, even though you can easily backup/move the physical file, if the PC itself dies, or is significantly modified, then the WTV files will no longer play. Microsoft was forced to do this to comply with CableCARD rules, just like TiVo was.

The only real advantage of an HTPC, in this regard, is that the files can easily be moved to another drive as long as they are played on the same PC. With a TiVo the recordings are also locked to a specific drive, which is the most likely point of failure.

One thing TiVo could do is offer a move function, rather then a copy. They would need to lock the recording on the original TiVo or delete it byte by byte as it transferred to prevent there from ever being two copies of the show. But as long as they did that then moving a recording from one TiVo to another would be within the rules. 

Although they seem to be moving toward a whole house solution instead. Where you have a single TiVo that actually stores the files and Mini's on all the other TVs. (or a Stream for iPad playback) So a move function may not be high on their priority list.

Dan


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> One thing TiVo could do is offer a move function, rather then a copy. They would need to lock the recording on the original TiVo or delete it byte by byte as it transferred to prevent there from ever being two copies of the show. But as long as they did that then moving a recording from one TiVo to another would be within the rules.
> 
> Although they seem to be moving toward a whole house solution instead. Where you have a single TiVo that actually stores the files and Mini's on all the other TVs. (or a Stream for iPad playback) So a move function may not be high on their priority list.
> 
> Dan


With streaming a reality now, I'd bet that the move function got kicked off the list entirely (if was ever on there in the first place). 

Luckily I'm OTA only so I don't have to deal with that crap.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> That's what I was wondering? Whether an HTPC or a DVR, if the content is copy protected there are still restrictions on it. And it can still be lost with a hardware failure.


That all depends on your provider. I'm on FIOS and only the premium channels are flagged as copy once. I can copy recordings to my other PC, convert them to other formats, edit them or do whatever I like with no problems. I can stream them from the primary HTPC to an extender in another room or I can share them with other PCs as long as they're not copy protected. Recordings can all be copied over to a server that has backup protection if you're worried about hardware failures. I have a 24TB unRAID server that uses a parity drive for recovering data in the event of a single drive failure. If more than one drive fails simultaneously, which would be extremely rare, then you'll lose whatever is on the failed drives.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Recordings can all be copied over to a server that has backup protection if you're worried about hardware failures. I have a 24TB unRAID server that uses a parity drive for recovering data in the event of a single drive failure. If more than one drive fails simultaneously, which would be extremely rare, then you'll lose whatever is on the failed drives.


The issue here is not hard drive failure but hardware failure. The encryption is tied to a hardware signature of your PC. If you replace too many major components, or get a whole new PC, you wont be able to play those recordings any more.

Dan


----------



## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Regarding...

*Show variety:*
I don't watch a ton of stuff - that's why dropping the DTV bill makes sense and why I said Netflix and iTunes variety are enough for my family. Right now I'm enjoying Tivo's suggestions of old reruns and some documentaries on PBS.​
*Whole home DVR streaming:*
We used the DTV "Whole Home DVR" all of the time, with our secondary HR24 recording the kids shows on it's 2 tuners and our stuff on the other. DTV's implementation works great; with all of the shows intermingled you really have no idea which machine had the recording on it. If we ever decide to go back to TimeWarner, if the Tivo Premier's streaming works as well I'll be happy.​
*Data loss prevention / central server storage:*
Nothing recorded off TV is worth worrying about to me - if we lost a hard drive it would be annoying, but not a big deal. Internet streaming content isn't on local drives anyway so that's not even an issue. The only server use I am planning on is ripping our disc based movies into an iTunes server for easy access from the AppleTV.​


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

eric_n_dfw said:


> If we ever decide to go back to TimeWarner, if the Tivo Premier's streaming works as well I'll be happy.


It works remarkably well. With a 4 tuner Premiere XL4 and a couple of the soon to be released Minis you could have a whole house solution equivalent to the DTV solution. It's quite slick in my opinion and something I've been waiting for TiVo to do for a loooong time.

Dan


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> DVRs are intended for time shifting not archiving.


The design intent is not relevant in this case, and what's more, I disagree. The fact the TiVo does support TTG implies archiving is one of the intended uses of the product. Indeed, even the Premier line - all of them - fully support TTG. It is not really TiVo's fault that third party extralegal intervention renders it useless in many cases.



Dan203 said:


> The data they hold is not critical so the need for backup, for most people, is unnecessary.


Backups are not merely for critical data. They are designed to prevent unnecessary inconvenience and expense. Indeed, at what point does a loss stop being "inconvenient" and become "critical"? When it costs the user $100? $1000? $10,000? Of course the only answer is it is a subjective matter, to be decided by the individual potentially incurring the loss. Replacing even a relative handful of recordings represents a significant amount of time, and time is precious, even if it is written off, as you say.



Dan203 said:


> I've had a TiVo die and lost a bunch of recordings. The ones that were really important I bought or downloaded via BitTorrent, the rest I wrote off.


So it cost you time and money. Those are resources you will never be able to recover.



Dan203 said:


> The problem you describe really only applies to digital pack rats.


It applies to anyone who has any data they do not wish to lose stored on a device.



Dan203 said:


> If that's you then you might be better off getting an HTPC. Although even then CCI protected recordings are locked to a specific set of hardware, so if you upgrade your PC they will no longer be playable.


Which means it was pointless to suggest an HTPC in the first place. The fact an HTPC is a worse solution than a Premier in other respects makes the idea even less worthwhile. What I am better off getting is what I have: three modified Series III class TiVos. Their features completely blow the doors off a Premier (which I also have, but only because it is provided at no extra cost) and for the most part an HTPC.



Dan203 said:


> digital pack rats.


One of the basic ideas behind a DVR is the ability to watch what one wants, when one wants. Time shifting is indeed one aspect of that paradigm. In order to be fulfilled in any meaningful sense this requires a significant number of programs be in storage (somewhere) ready for immediate access without a large danger of disappearing. Now it is true of course some people may consider the on-board storage of the TiVo to be both sufficiently large and sufficiently secure, but the popularity of hard drive upgrades (and queries concerning them) suggests for many people this is not the case.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> The issue here is not hard drive failure but hardware failure. The encryption is tied to a hardware signature of your PC. If you replace too many major components, or get a whole new PC, you wont be able to play those recordings any more.


Absolutely. With an HTPC recording copy protected content (which used to be the only thing I recorded), sooner or later that content *WILL* be lost. The only question is, "When?"


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> The design intent is not relevant in this case, and what's more, I disagree. The fact the TiVo does support TTG implies archiving is one of the intended uses of the product. Indeed, even the Premier line - all of them - fully support TTG. It is not really TiVo's fault that third party extralegal intervention renders it useless in many cases.


That's not true. The name itself, TiVoToGo, implies watching your recorded content on the go. The original intent of TTG was to be able to watch shows via your laptop PC when on the road. A design they continued, and locked down even more, with the new Stream and iPad app.

While you can use TTG for archiving, that was never it's intended purpose.

Now the TiVos with built in DVD burners... Those were built for archiving.  They were also the reason we ended up with that crude Macrovision protection system on the old S2 units.

Dan


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> Absolutely. With an HTPC recording copy protected content (which used to be the only thing I recorded), sooner or later that content *WILL* be lost. The only question is, "When?"


DRM is part of our lives now and we have to deal with it as best we can. Trust me it effects my business and I'd love to get rid of it just as much as you would.

Dan


----------

