# Fringe 11/2/12 "An Origin Story"



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I guess they're getting into the habit of ending with a shock...

I was half-expecting Peter to teleport back to Olivia!

So I suppose the origin story in question is that of Peter the Observer? Peteserver? Obpeter?

Or maybe of the Observer race? They brought the tech back in time that led to their own existence?

I was wondering about the Etta posters...it didn't seem she's been dead long enough. It made me wonder if the timeline hadn't changed in some subtle way when the black hole bomb went off. But that doesn't seem to be where they're going...


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

Cyborg Peter looks cool. Definitely hope he is not Observer #1.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

what did you guys see that I missed (about Peter being a cyborg)? All I saw was Peter by the mirror 

I, too, thought the posters indicated some sort of timeline shift.

Did Peter and the gang ever ask Etta where she went when she disappeared and where she grew up?


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Anubys said:


> what did you guys see that I missed (about Peter being a cyborg)? All I saw was Peter by the mirror


Peter extracted some sort of a metal probe from the neck of the observer, then using a scalpel, sliced open the back of his own neck and inserted the probe (well, it sort of inserted itself when it got close enough).


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Cyborg Peter looks cool. Definitely hope he is not Observer #1.





LoadStar said:


> Peter extracted some sort of a metal probe from the neck of the observer, then using a scalpel, sliced open the back of his own neck and inserted the probe (well, it sort of inserted itself when it got close enough).


sure...I saw that...I just don't understand the "Cyborg Peter looks cool" comment...he took the call from Olivia, told her he loved her, and that was it...aside from knowing that the thing was inside him, how did he look cool?


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Anubys said:


> sure...I saw that...I just don't understand the "Cyborg Peter looks cool" comment...he took the call from Olivia, told her he loved her, and that was it...aside from knowing that the thing was inside him, how did he look cool?


*shrug* Normal Peter looks cool, so Cyborg Peter, by de facto, looks cool? Dunno.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

We'll just have to wait and see.

I like where this might be going.


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

So does Peter become the daddy of all observers? And does this mean they spin the story so observers are no longer considered bad guys? That's a tough sell.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LoadStar said:


> Peter extracted some sort of a metal probe from the neck of the observer, then using a scalpel, sliced open the back of his own neck and inserted the probe (well, it sort of inserted itself when it got close enough).


And what's more, Peter said (although I'm not sure how he would know) that the tech he extracted from the Observer's head is the only thing that separates them from humans. His intent was to make himself an Observer, only good instead of evil (I can't remember his exact line, but something like "The only difference between you and me is the tech in your head," in response to the Observer's contempt for humanity).


Family said:


> So does Peter become the daddy of all observers? And does this mean they spin the story so observers are no longer considered bad guys? That's a tough sell.


I think it's possible that Peter just accidentally became the daddy of all Observers, which will turn out to be another Bad Thing To Be Fixed.

But it really is hard to tell where they're going, the way things shift so radically week to week. The show has become a real blast...I just hope the pay-off is worthy!


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

LoadStar said:


> Peter extracted some sort of a metal probe from the neck of the observer, then using a scalpel, sliced open the back of his own neck and inserted the probe (well, it sort of inserted itself when it got close enough).


I was expecting/fearing that Peter would speak in a monotone voice when he answered Olivia's call.


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But it really is hard to tell where they're going, the way things shift so radically week to week. The show has become a real blast...I just hope the pay-off is worthy!


I wonder if Peter goes bald.

The show has gotten things going in a good way the past weeks. I think "The Pay-off" is overrated. The journey is more important. I'd prefer enjoying a show week to week than suffering like last season; no matter what any final result might be.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Does he need to use a LOT of pepper now?


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I half expected for his hair to start falling out. I find this whole turn of events oddly similar to when Peter was killing the shape shifters. He went down a very dark path that time, too. The Etta posters seemed to just appear. Can anyone check if they showed the same alleyway in an earlier shot (without the posters)?

I am still enjoying the show, but I have to admit, I tried watching Grimm first (it wasn't Grimm, but the EPG data did not get updated so it still recorded). This just doesn't feel like the show I've been watching the last few years. I miss the other side; I miss Nina and Broyles; I miss Gene.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The whole black hole scheme has really been bugging me. It doesn't make any sense, in ways that don't reflect well on the writers. But suddenly, I've thought of a way that doesn't make sense in a way that (mostly) _does _reflect well on the writers. Attend:

They capture an Observer and his Cube, but the Cube needs to be properly assembled; if it's not, it blows up and kills them. Peter comes up with the plan of using the Cube to attract a wormhole from the future to a location of his choosing and to launch an anti-matter grenade into the wormhole, thus causing massive destruction to the Observers' base in the future.

Peter interrogates the Observer, tricking him into giving clues as to the assembly of the Cube. After he succeeds, the Observer taunts him by claiming that Peter wasn't really reading cues to put it together correctly, but rather relying on his own intuition.

This seems strange to me. First, what difference does it make how he assembled it? He now has a working Cube. And second, what does the Observer gain by mocking him? We'll return to this later.

The Scooby Gang takes the Cube and the anti-matter grenade, and with some difficulty succeed in rerouting the wormhole and launching the anti-matter grenade through it. The wormhole then sucks the cargo back in and collapses. They all cheer, for a few seconds, until a second wormhole opens and more cargo comes through. Walter is baffled; it should have taken them years to recover.

Which baffles me, on two fronts. First, we saw how much damage an anti-matter grenade does to a wormhole opening when it goes off inside the wormhole...which is to say, hardly any. Why assume that it would do substantially more damage at the other end? Maybe they would get lucky and the wormhole generator would get sucked in before the wormhole collapses, but maybe not.

But let's assume they got lucky. It takes 75 years to build a new wormhole generator. The new generator goes on line...and lock onto the Observers' cube in the present. Why would Walter, of all people, not realize that when your enemy is time travelers from the future, any setback they experience in the future will have no practical effect on the present? That would only apply if there were some reason why the wormhole could only be X years long...but we've seen no indication of that.

I think that really is a glitch on the part of the writers. But now let's go back to Peter's captive, and his pointless gloating.

WHAT IF...

...he knew that the anti-matter bomb trick wasn't going to work? The capture of the Observer and his Cube, and the relentless mocking of Peter, could have all been a trick. Under the pretext of building the Cube, the Observer was manipulating Peter into taking the implant and putting it into his own head. "Oh, you silly little human! You're like ants, because you're not Observers like us! You don't have implants, like the one in my head that you were just looking at! Maybe if you HAD one of these implants, and put it in your head, you'd stand a chance against us! But you don't! Neener neener neener!"

By tricking the resistance into an act that couldn't succeed, by giving Peter the opportunity to steal the implant and use it himself, could the Observers have been playing a deliberate role in their own creation? Perhaps even by killing Etta?

In which case the Observers are now a huge step closer to success, and the only way they can be stopped is if Peter realizes what's going on, and chooses humanity & rejects his new, improved quasi-Observer nature.

The implication of this could be that the series ends with the Observers never having existed, and thus none of Fringe ever having happened...


----------



## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The whole black hole scheme has really been bugging me. It doesn't make any sense, in ways that don't reflect well on the writers. But suddenly, I've thought of a way that doesn't make sense in a way that (mostly) _does _reflect well on the writers. Attend:
> 
> [Snipped for brevity] [Also, cause I didn't understand it all]
> 
> ...


So, you're advancing the St. Elsewhere postulate?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

RGM1138 said:


> So, you're advancing the St. Elsewhere postulate?


Heh.

No.

But, heh.

(Snow-globes≠alternate timelines)


----------



## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

Or, what if, J.J. and his boys do the bold move: Observers triumph, the human race ceases to exist. (Except for a few loyalist stooges). 

It might be refreshing to let the bad guys win once in awhile. (To paraphrase Billy Preston).

How do the baldies procreate anyway? Do we know?


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Either way this goes I like the direction a lot. Remember a few weeks ago people mentioned they might search for a tape each week. Blech. This has great possibilities (remember they have the old Fringe storage basement too).


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Being an Observer does not inherently make one evil. September seemed like a mostly decent fellow. So we should not assume that the device in Peter's head will make him evil.

Maybe Peter could start a new reality with decent Observers rather than evil Observers.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And what's more, Peter said (although I'm not sure how he would know) that the tech he extracted from the Observer's head is the only thing that separates them from humans. His intent was to make himself an Observer, only good instead of evil (I can't remember his exact line, but something like "The only difference between you and me is the tech in your head," in response to the Observer's contempt for humanity).


Peter (talking to the Observer):

"You are nothing but tech. I would be 10 times what you are if I had that tech in my head."

This is where he gives himself the idea to take the Observer tech and implant it in himself.
The idea is to gain access to the technology, not actually become an Observer.
What will actually happen? We can only speculate.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Did I miss the part where they always knew that the Observers had an implant and where it was? 

Early in the show weren't all the observers pretty much good guys, with the powers that be more concerned with "the prime directive" and upset with September for interfering? Hence the name. Did a shift in the timeline change them, or was it just bad writing?


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Did I miss the part where they always knew that the Observers had an implant and where it was?


The Resistance guy showed Peter when he took Peter to see the Observer. How and when the Resistance learned of it, we don't know.


----------



## Idearat (Nov 26, 2000)

When Peter was interrogating with the camera zoomed in on the Observers eye I so wanted him to ask "You're in a desert, walking along in the sand, when all of a sudden you look down..."

I also took the Etta posters to be a timeline shift. They made a point of showing lots of Observer posters before that with the phrase "The Future in Order", even had Olivia staring up at one. The sudden appearance after the wormhole collapse made it look like their world had changed significantly. The posters Olivia saw of Etta were all aimed down the alley the direction they were looking when they saw the new shipment coming though the wormhole, but they weren't there when looking towards the shipment.

I was baffled why they used their own cube to create their own end of the wormhole, but they didn't put it in a room somewhere that it would be private and have easy access to launch the grenade. Instead they put it out in the middle of a road, visible from the original intended location. (The Observers just looked across the street and saw it forming before they activated their own stabilizer ) Peter was across the street in a building and could have been there even if they hadn't used their own cube

The implanting of the tech had another SciFi familiar feel to it. I was half expecting his eyes to glow and for him to talk with an echoing voice.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't get all this talk of Peter being an observer. If an armed robber invades my home and I fight him and take his gun, does that make me an armed robber? 

I'm still the same person, I just have the bad guy's gun.

All Peter did was take away the bad guy's "weapon".


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I just don't buy Peter being the origin of the Observers. That's the mother of all time travel paradoxes. Using something from the future to create that future.

And why the hell do the observers have to move tech from the future to the past to build their CO2 machines? Wouldn't there be more resources to do that here in their past? Conserve your resources where they're needed, and send back a thumb drive with the plans.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Peter000 said:


> I just don't buy Peter being the origin of the Observers. That's the mother of all time travel paradoxes. Using something from the future to create that future.


No, having something from the future that has effected its own creation through time travel does *not necessarily* create a paradox.

It may be counter intuitive to consider, for example, going back in time to impregnate your great^10 grandmother (who your research showed had only one child), making you your own great^10 grandfather, but that by itself is not inconsistent, and so is not intrinsically a paradox (just very strange).

On the other hand, if you go back in time and kill your mother before she has any children, then that is indeed a paradox -- your memories of your mother raising you and your own DNA would be inconsistent with the woman having died before giving birth.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> No, having something from the future that has effected its own creation through time travel does *not necessarily* create a paradox.
> 
> It may be counter intuitive to consider, for example, going back in time to impregnate your great^10 grandmother, making you your own great^10 grandfather, but that by itself is not inconsistent, and so is not intrinsically a paradox (just very strange).


But if your time machine is broken and unrepairable, what happens when you don't impregnate your grandmother?

How can something exist before it is invented? A piece of tech goes back in time and invents itself by presenting itself to an inventer? There's no "beginning" for that tech. Essentially it's created from nothing. Or it always existed, which isn't possible.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Peter000 said:


> How can something exist before it is invented? A piece of tech goes back in time and invents itself by presenting itself to an inventer? There's no "beginning" for that tech. Essentially it's created from nothing. Or it always existed, which isn't possible.


Why do you say it is not possible? I do not see any inconsistencies.

Your argument quoted above would seem to apply equally well to the Universe, but it obviously exists, even though it could have been created from "nothing" for all we know.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Why do you say it is not possible? I do not see any inconsistencies.
> 
> Your argument quoted above would seem to apply equally well to the Universe, but it obviously exists, even though it could have been created from "nothing" for all we know.


Well, that's not a great analogy, since the universe coming "from nothing" (if that's what happened, which is a completely separate issue) really _is _a case of something coming "from nothing." The Observer technology was NOT created from nothing...it was created by the industrial base of a society advanced enough to build a time machine, which then used that time machine to travel to the past. The only paradox, as you say, is if they change something in the past that prevents their future from happening.

That's why Etta freaked them out so much. They didn't know about her. She shouldn't have existed, and somehow they expected to know about everything that existed, at least down to the scale of individual people.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Peter000 said:


> I just don't buy Peter being the origin of the Observers.


The episode title is seriously pushing us to think that. Which makes me wonder if it's misdirection.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But let's assume they got lucky. It takes 75 years to build a new wormhole generator. The new generator goes on line...and lock onto the Observers' cube in the present. Why would Walter, of all people, not realize that when your enemy is time travelers from the future, any setback they experience in the future will have no practical effect on the present? That would only apply if there were some reason why the wormhole could only be X years long...but we've seen no indication of that.


The devastation could have been even worse than that. Remember the world of 2609 was dying. It is doubtful that they had 75 years to rebuilt the manufacturing and shipping capabilities at the worm head (worm hole head?). But the origin point is geographically as well as temporally independent of its destination.

So, theoretically, the anti-matter bomb and its resultant black hole could have destroyed an entire continent before it was contained and sealed off. And a similar facility on a different continent could have connected to the destination box the Observers just opened up down the street. In fact, the entire world of 2609 would have been destroyed and the new shipment could have originated from a time a day or a week before that worm head was hit by anti-matter baton and its resultant black hole.

Since there are several episodes left, I assume that Earth 2026 is still intact. But I like to think this hurt them badly, and there was massive destruction and death comparable to the original Observer invasion in 2015.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Since there are several episodes left, I assume that Earth 2026 is still intact. But I like to think this hurt them badly, and there was massive destruction and death comparable to the original Observer invasion in 2015.


Except we saw how much damage it did on this side of the wormhole (almost but not quite 0), and how quickly the wormhole collapsed. There just wasn't time for massive damage on the other end.

I think the whole wormhole bomb was a red herring, designed by the Observers to get the Observer implant into Peter. We (the Resistance) were made to think that it could have catastrophic effects, but it didn't.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except we saw how much damage it did on this side of the wormhole (almost but not quite 0), and how quickly the wormhole collapsed. There just wasn't time for massive damage on the other end.


Also depends on where the black hole ended up and how big it was. If the black hole ended up at the origin point of the worm hole when it collapsed, 2026 would have been stuck with a black hole. A smallish black hole would radiate itself into nonexistence quickly. A slightly bigger one would fall into the Earth and start taking in mass from the core and mantle until the Earth collapsed totally into it, the initial size of the black hole determining the time to collapse.

Now Walter's description (and knowing Walter's descriptions can be truly awful and misleading, but it is what we have) showed a black hole with the size to draw people and things into it. This is not a black hole that would dissipate quickly.

Also, by the time these items reach the event horizon they are, by definition, travelling light speed. So things will happen quickly. Quick enough that there is wide-spread, massive destruction? Maybe.

I know you have a theory about Peter being the first Observer and all, but The Observers, since the creation of the bridge, have been trying to get rid of him. This is evidence that tends to contradict that theory.

My own theory is nearly the opposite. September was induced to visit Walternate in the lab expressly to distract him, resulting in Peter's death. And that the mistake that September made was not factoring in Walter viewing this, crossing the universes and setting up their destruction.

That Peter was only saved to create the bridge, saving the universes for the future invasion. And once the bridge was there, the original reason they wanted Peter dead came into play again. Peter and his child (whether Henry or Henrietta) would be the authors of their demise.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except we saw how much damage it did on this side of the wormhole (almost but not quite 0), and how quickly the wormhole collapsed. There just wasn't time for massive damage on the other end.


The damage was supposed to be isolated to the other end. It wasn't supposed to turn BOTH ends into black holes, just the far end. This end would just collapse.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

My theory, Peter and Walter's plan to destroy the future worked. However, the future is still one of many 'possible outcomes'. Everything they do can change that possible future. The observers witnessed what occurred when Peter and Olivia's shot the anti matter grenade into the wormhole, and now knowing that knowledge the future observers are now prepared for the attack.

So the plan was a success, but a failure at the same time because the future is still a set of possible outcomes.

This would also explain the "time shifts" we witnessed during the episode.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, that's not a great analogy, since the universe coming "from nothing" (if that's what happened, which is a completely separate issue) really _is _a case of something coming "from nothing."


It was not an analogy. It was a demonstration that the argument of "something from nothing means impossible" is a flawed argument, since it produces an incorrect conclusion when applied elsewhere.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LoadStar said:


> The damage was supposed to be isolated to the other end. It wasn't supposed to turn BOTH ends into black holes, just the far end. This end would just collapse.


That's what they said, but it was silly. A wormhole is a wormhole; when it collapses it collapses; a black hole inside it would affect both ends until it collapses. You can't have a wormhole with just one end.

We'll see what they have in mind; I suspect we don't have enough information to determine that just yet.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's what they said, but it was silly. A wormhole is a wormhole; when it collapses it collapses; a black hole inside it would affect both ends until it collapses. You can't have a wormhole with just one end.


It did seem odd the way they showed it. When Walter first explained, it sounded to me like he was counting on them collapsing it before the cargo came through, thus the blocked cargo would somehow initiate the black hole on the Observer end (not that that is a valid Physics theory, but at least it does differentiate the two ends). But Peter was delayed in collapsing it and the cargo got through before he could fire the antimatter. If anything, the black hole would have come up on Peter's end, since the cargo got sucked back in from Peter's side.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's what they said, but it was silly. A wormhole is a wormhole; when it collapses it collapses; a black hole inside it would affect both ends until it collapses. You can't have a wormhole with just one end.
> 
> We'll see what they have in mind; I suspect we don't have enough information to determine that just yet.


I just love it that we can sit here and discuss theoretical phenomena that have never been proven to exist, let alone actually discovered and observed.

You are right, you can't have a wormhole with just one end. That is what Walter was going for. If one end is collapsed, then all you have at the other end is a black hole, and that would be devastating.

What I don't get is how an anti-matter stick (whatever *that* is) would collapse the wormhole. I thought the theory is that you need anti-matter (negative energy -- and huge amounts of it) in order to keep a wormhole stable. Here they already have a stable wormhole, and somehow introducing anti matter is supposed to collapse it?

OK, have to turn off what little I "know" about this "magic". Let's just go with it. They have a stable wormhole and an anti-matter stick, and throwing the stick inside the wormhole will collapse it, but do so while closing off the near end, leaving just a black hole at the other end.

We must assume that Walter is correct (because I just cannot see them, in a future episode, throw more mumbo-jumbo that is not based on much, if any, recognized theory, to explain how his initial theory of what would happen was incorrect). I think the most obvious explanation is that the expected destruction on the other end *did* happen, but because we are dealing with time-travel the effect in 2026 was _not_ as expected.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

john4200 said:


> It did seem odd the way they showed it. When Walter first explained, it sounded to me like he was counting on them collapsing it before the cargo came through, *thus the blocked cargo would somehow initiate the black hole* on the Observer end (not that that is a valid Physics theory, but at least it does differentiate the two ends). But Peter was delayed in collapsing it and the cargo got through before he could fire the antimatter. If anything, the black hole would have come up on Peter's end, since the cargo got sucked back in from Peter's side.


Isn't "valid Physics theory" that it takes a black hole to create a wormhole? In other words, there already is a black hole.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

wprager said:


> Isn't "valid Physics theory" that it takes a black hole to create a wormhole? In other words, there already is a black hole.


I do not think that statement is necessarily accurate. While a Schwarzschild wormhole is, by definition, part of a black hole, I do not think it is accurate to say that all wormholes contain a black hole.

Keep in mind that a black hole has the property of a gravitational field that is so strong that nothing, not even light, can escape from within the Schwarzschild radius. Thus, a Schwarzschild wormhole is only traversable in one direction, seemingly into another universe, but not back from the other universe.

A two-way traversable wormhole, on the other hand, has been theorized, but it requires exotic matter in order to create it. Note that exotic matter is completely different than antimatter. Antimatter exists and has been studied for a long time. Exotic matter, which has negative energy density, is only hypothetical. But if you do succeed in creating a two-way traversable wormhole, with both ends in the same universe but at different spacetime coordinates, then it would seem there is not really a black hole, since there is no Schwarzschild radius of no return.

By the way, the theory of time travel with a two-way traversable wormhole has a limitation that is frequently glossed over in science fiction. You cannot use such a wormhole to travel back in time to before the wormhole was first created. So, if we managed to create or find exotic matter and to manipulate it to form a two-way traversable wormhole in 2013, then theoretically, people from the future would be able to travel back to 2013. But not to 2012 or earlier.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I hasten to add, by the way, that my theory outlined earlier is not by any means a prediction. It's just a thought I had. Frankly, this show can't be predicted...they take such a...freewheeling approach to science that you can't really figure it out on those grounds; they're usually more into mystical solutions.

To them, science seems to be at best a good source for cool but vague concepts, and more often a good source for cool but vaguely-applied jargon. Although they seem to have edged closer to "reality" (e.g., when they say "black hole" now it is at least something that is recognizable as a black hole, whereas in the early days they would use scientific jargon with no regard for its actual meaning, much in the vein of Star Trek techno-babble), I still think any attempt to work out where they're heading on the basis of the sciencey words they use is doomed to failure.

Still fun to try, though!


----------



## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

Perhaps Peter = Valen/Jeffrey Sinclair...


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Well I just came from reading a page which said "All wormholes are black holes, but not every black hole is a wormhole", or something to that effect.

And the exotic matter is required to _keep it stable_, not to create it. And any theories about whether or not a wormhole cane be used to travel back in time is, well, theory.

Looking around a few more hits from the google search, apparently to make a wormhole you need a black hole and a white hole. A white hole is a black hole running in reverse time, spewing out matter. While it is mathematically sound (it's simply another solution to Einstein's General Relativity equations) it most certainly cannot exist. Which means that wormholes also cannot exist.

They are great on paper; not so much IRL.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

Riemann cuts, named after the mathematician Georg Riemann, are wormholes of zero length. A wormhole with this mathematical structure would be like a 2 dimensional window between 2609 and 2036. An anti-matter baton sent through this wormhole could not activate inside the wormhole. 

The baton might be triggered by transversing the wormhole and activate an the other side. The combination of the anti-matter and crossing time might force the creation of a black hole or cause the wormhole to become uncontrolled and exhibit its black hole characteristics. That black hole would start pulling in atmosphere and whatever else surrounded it creating a a near instantaneous partial vacuum. This results of that vacuum is what we saw on the 2036 side - at least until the wormhole collapsed. 

This might be why the effects of the black hole were not symmetrically seen at both ends of the wormhole. Of course, this is unlike what Walter described would happen. But as I stated above, Walter's descriptions are often awful and misleading.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> (e.g., when they say "black hole" now it is at least something that is recognizable as a black hole, whereas in the early days they would use scientific jargon with no regard for its actual meaning, much in the vein of Star Trek techno-babble)


The term 'warp drive' was used before Star Trek, but it was techno-babble at the time. There was no idea that it meant compressing spacetime in one direction while re-expanding it in another, allowing a craft to travel across what had been light years of space compressed into light days, light seconds or even light nanoseconds as regular space.

With warp drive, science (mathematics, anyway) imitated art and there is now a theoretical basis for the originally not even technobabble warp drive. The math was, if I remember right, proposed sometime in the 1990s.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Well, if the term "Warp Drive" was not a reference to warping the space/time continuum, then why was it called a "Warp Drive"? They may not have sat down and work through any mathematical equations to make sure it was theoretically sound, but I think "Warp Drive" was more sci fi than technobabble.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

wprager said:


> Well, if the term "Warp Drive" was not a reference to warping the space/time continuum, then why was it called a "Warp Drive"? They may not have sat down and work through any mathematical equations to make sure it was theoretically sound, but I think "Warp Drive" was more sci fi than technobabble.


If memory serves there were usually 'higher dimensions' involved or the intervening space was moved off to the side. Also, in nautical terms, 'warping a boat in' just means pulling the lines attached to the vessel to move it. And the term was often use in places like the Erie canal by attaching horses or oxen to do the job. This may be the actual source of the idea for a warp drive.

<Update>
Did a little research using Google Books. In the 1953 volume of Galaxy Science Fiction magazine, a space warp was described thus:


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Captain Windmark promised to crack down on illegal infiltration, and yet day after day primitives are able to cross into our territories without proper documentation.

He claims to put our people first, and yet gives jobs to primitives while many of us are unable to find work.

He swore to give us tougher environmental laws, and yet carbon emissions are up only 10%.

And most shocking of all, he has been seen associating with terrorists:










We don't need another 4 solar orbits of broken promises.

Captain Windmark is bad for business, bad for our environment, and bad for Utopia:










Vote *NO* for Captain Windmark.

This message paid for by Citizens for a Better Yesterday, Tomorrow.


----------



## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

When Peter inserted the implant, my first thought was, whoa, Peter is Neo


----------



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

ozzman73 said:


> When Peter inserted the implant, my first thought was, whoa, Peter is Neo


Pacey knows kung fu


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> Captain Windmark promised to crack down on illegal infiltration, and yet day after day primitives are able to cross into our territories without proper documentation.
> 
> He claims to put our people first, and yet gives jobs to primitives while many of us are unable to find work.
> 
> ...


I would have laughed at this if I weren't thisclose to sapping from seeing so many political attack ads in the last couple of weeks.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I think the "origin story" in the title just implies that Peter is now a superhero and this is how he became one.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

I had thought that the time shift occurred when the anti-matter baton was thrown through the worm-hole. After viewing the scene a few more times, I think it is when Peter decided to get more answers from the captured Observer. This fits in with Walter's past assertions that timelines branch based on decisions.

Here are screenshots of the same bit of alleyway before and after the timeshift:









Here is a screenshot of some graffiti saying "PETER LAKE," a reference to the instance of the previous timeshift on the show:


----------



## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> I had thought that the time shift occurred when the anti-matter baton was thrown through the worm-hole. After viewing the scene a few more times, I think it is when Peter decided to get more answers from the captured Observer. This fits in with Walter's past assertions that timelines branch based on decisions.
> 
> Here are screenshots of the same bit of alleyway before and after the timeshift:
> 
> ...


How did you do the screen grabs? And, the highlights on the screen grabs?


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

RGM1138 said:


> How did you do the screen grabs? And, the highlights on the screen grabs?


Copy to PC using TiVo desktop, do captures using Windows 8 Snipping Tool. Paint for adding shapes etc.

Btw, on this one I took short cuts and let others do most the work. (Fringe sub-reddit and twitter).


----------



## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> Copy to PC using TiVo desktop, do captures using Windows 8 Snipping Tool. Paint for adding shapes etc.
> 
> Btw, on this one I took short cuts and let others do most the work. (Fringe sub-reddit and twitter).


Cool. Thanks.


----------



## Katrinaceleste (Nov 6, 2012)

I had suspected that Peter was actually the captive observer on the stretcher. He actually looks somewhat like Peter. It blue eyes the shape of his jaw...... Anyway that is what brought me to this site to begin with. I was trying to figure out who the actor is that played that role. I suppose if it is Mr Jackson they will not say because it will give it away? 

WHAT IF...

...he knew that the anti-matter bomb trick wasn't going to work? The capture of the Observer and his Cube, and the relentless mocking of Peter, could have all been a trick. Under the pretext of building the Cube, the Observer was manipulating Peter into taking the implant and putting it into his own head. "Oh, you silly little human! You're like ants, because you're not Observers like us! You don't have implants, like the one in my head that you were just looking at! Maybe if you HAD one of these implants, and put it in your head, you'd stand a chance against us! But you don't! Neener neener neener!"

Exactly! I was thinking the same thing. Somebody asked how they would procreate? I say they do not need to because they can go though time and time has no meaning for them. they can just teleport back and forth, therefor they do not need to reproduce. 

Similar to the whole cube predicament.....they may have taken years to fix it then they just sent it to that same day. Although, Walter should be smart enough to realize that, sometimes the whole time warp stuff can be confusing and take a bit of time to catch up with what is really going on.


----------



## Katrinaceleste (Nov 6, 2012)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except we saw how much damage it did on this side of the wormhole (almost but not quite 0), and how quickly the wormhole collapsed. There just wasn't time for massive damage on the other end.
> 
> I think the whole wormhole bomb was a red herring, designed by the Observers to get the Observer implant into Peter. We (the Resistance) were made to think that it could have catastrophic effects, but it didn't.


I agree, I also suspect that the captive observer is actually Peter. I hope that somehow Peter recovers from this.....


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ozzman73 said:


> When Peter inserted the implant, my first thought was, whoa, Peter is Neo


...and now Olivia has lost "her" Peter...


----------



## Katrinaceleste (Nov 6, 2012)

OK John Prosky is the actor that played the captive observer. He has a couple of similar features to Joshua Jackson, so I thought with a bunch of makeup they can make Peter look like that. My bad....... anyway it is real freaky the direction that Peter is going in, but not surprising.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

Katrinaceleste said:


> I had suspected that Peter was actually the captive observer on the stretcher. He actually looks somewhat like Peter. It blue eyes the shape of his jaw...... Anyway that is what brought me to this site to begin with. I was trying to figure out who the actor is that played that role. I suppose if it is Mr Jackson they will not say because it will give it away?
> 
> WHAT IF...
> 
> ...he knew that the anti-matter bomb trick wasn't going to work? The capture of the Observer and his Cube, and the relentless mocking of Peter, could have all been a trick. Under the pretext of building the Cube, the Observer was manipulating Peter into taking the implant and putting it into his own head. "Oh, you silly little human! You're like ants, because you're not Observers like us! You don't have implants, like the one in my head that you were just looking at! Maybe if you HAD one of these implants, and put it in your head, you'd stand a chance against us! But you don't! Neener neener neener!"


So if the Observer was a future version of Peter, he came back in time to taunt younger Peter into pulling his chip, implanting it in himself then going on to defeat the Observers. This is the classic "By His Bootstraps" paradox.

It was kind of strange that there was a wormhole attraction box and that the other Observers did not seem worried about or come to recover it. And that he taunted Peter so.

But I don't think it was Peter, it may have been Henry, sacrificing himself to give his father the means to destroy the occupation.

Here's another thought: What if the anti-matter baton was as effective as Walter thought? What if the second shipment wasn't from the Observers of the future but was surreptitiously from the Resistance? And what if, instead of generating carbon for injection into the atmosphere, Walter had formulated a DNA targeted gas ("A Bishop Revival") that it put into the atmosphere? After all, they do have all the particulars of the shipment, thanks to Astrid's decryption.

If that is what happened, there will be a lot of dead Observers once those machines are put on-line.


----------



## Katrinaceleste (Nov 6, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> So if the Observer was a future version of Peter, he came back in time to taunt younger Peter into pulling his chip, implanting it in himself then going on to defeat the Observers. This is the classic "By His Bootstraps" paradox.
> 
> It was kind of strange that there was a wormhole attraction box and that the other Observers did not seem worried about or come to recover it. And that he taunted Peter so.
> 
> ...


That would certainly be a very positive case scenario. I realize this is supposed to be the last season, but I hope they do not wrap things up too early. I would not be surprised if a few of the things you mentioned may come about.

As far as the whole paradox thing it can get pretty complicated. Like what came first the chicken blah blah blah. I know it would not be that simple, that Peter just came back to talk himself into the implant. For one thing if he already had it why would he need to, and if he didn't have it where would the implant come from.

Most likely the shipment that came through is what the Observers wanted, but let's hope there is a twist. As far as the baton, I am still trying to figure out the whole matter anti-matter thing, because it made sense at first, but the more people talk about it the more confused I get. 

I know if matter comes in contact with anti-matter there is obliteration, so I was just thinking that anti-matter was going to destroy the things in the wormhole, yet there is the whole idea of anti-matter already making up the wormhole.

I also thought that a wormhole was just a black hole that had 2 connecting ends rather than one open end. But I like to look at things more simply, I suppose.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And what's more, Peter said (although I'm not sure how he would know) that the tech he extracted from the Observer's head is the only thing that separates them from humans. His intent was to make himself an Observer, only good instead of evil (I can't remember his exact line, but something like "The only difference between you and me is the tech in your head," in response to the Observer's contempt for humanity).


I think what he actually said was "I would be ten times what you are if I had that tech in my head."


[email protected] said:


> I had thought that the time shift occurred when the anti-matter baton was thrown through the worm-hole. After viewing the scene a few more times, I think it is when Peter decided to get more answers from the captured Observer. This fits in with Walter's past assertions that timelines branch based on decisions.
> 
> Here are screenshots of the same bit of alleyway before and after the timeshift:
> 
> ...


I think the appearance of the posters does signify a timeline shift, but I don't think your screen caps are depicting what you think they're depicting. Your picture of the "before" alleyway is the wrong side of the alley. The picture without posters is looking back toward the street where the portal had just opened, and the picture with the posters is from Olivia's vantage point after she'd run up to that street and was looking back toward the van. I just watched it a few times and they were very careful never to show us that side of the alley from that direction.

They were driving down the alley away from the street where the wormhole opened. Then Olivia ran back to that street, then turned around and saw the posters. So when they were driving down the alley originally, she should have seen the posters.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I dunno if anyone saw this before the season started, but it still qualifies as a spoiler.



Spoiler













He also appeared that way at Comicon.









Greg


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

There was also this.



Spoiler



Watch until the end.









Greg


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I think Peter's goal isn't just revenge, he's going to try to go back in time to save Etta.

I kind of like that this all started with Walter trying to save Peter and now Peter trying to save Etta will also cause unintended consequences.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

gchance said:


> I dunno if anyone saw this before the season started, but it still qualifies as a spoiler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dammit.. I should know better than to click on Fringe spoilers, only myself to blame, it's not a huge spoiler but it is certainly something I can't unsee now.

No malice to other posters, it's my own greedy fault


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

It's only a spoiler if it comes to fruition. 

I can see a scenario where Peter "becomes an observer" so he can infiltrate them in an attempt to thwart the invasion, but I don't think that's where they're heading. 
We'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> dammit.. I should know better than to click on Fringe spoilers, only myself to blame, it's not a huge spoiler but it is certainly something I can't unsee now.
> 
> No malice to other posters, it's my own greedy fault


Keep in mind the photo in question is a still shot from what is clearly a comedy/parody video. Doesn't mean it won't still happen, of course.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> Keep in mind the photo in question is a still shot from what is clearly a comedy/parody video. Doesn't mean it won't still happen, of course.


oh I know, but it planted a seed that didn't need to be growing


----------

