# support chat explanation for freezing/crashing



## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

I spent some time with support chat trying to understand why my PXL is freezing every time we try to watch recorded shows. The first person took me thru the usual -- reboot without network, plug into the wall, etc. That basically went nowhere, and 20 minutes later (after freeze/crash/reboot), I was chatting with someone else.

He had me look at the DVR Diagnostics screen, and this is what ensued:

Ben: This will bring up a diagnostics page. First line will read Tuner 0. Make sure the second line shows one of the channels you just changed to. Then if you can, please, find me the Signal Strength, SNR, RS Uncorrected, and RS Corrected.

Me: ok. signal strength = 98, SNR = 38dB, RS Uncorrected = 426, RS Corrected = 112

Ben: Alright I think we actually found the source of this issue right here, I'm not sure all of the troubleshooting from the first TiVo you had a problem with but this might of lead to this as well. What the issue is, is that RS Uncorrected and Corrected.

Me: ok, what does that mean

Ben: The RS Uncorrect is the amount of signal errors coming across that the TiVo is not able to fix while the Corrected are the errors that the TiVo was able to fix. Because there are so many the TiVo processor is going into overdrive trying to process those which can cause the crashes.

Me: ok. what can be done about it?

Ben: There is easy way to fix these errors though, other then having your provider come out to take a look at the line. One simple way you can fix is pick yourself up an Attenuator from a nearby Best Buy or Radio shack. This is a small adapter that's fits on the cable line between the wall and the TiVo and will help smooth out that signal and clear those errors out for you.

Me: what are the specs on the attenuator?

Me: also, what is an acceptable figure for RS uncorrected & corrected?

Ben: There are a couple of different types and they are separated by DB such as 6db, 10db, 20db up to 1000db. For this I would suggest either a 10 or 20dB, one right in the middle. The acceptable figure for both the RS should read 0 on any normal connection, but definitely the lower the better.

Me: so does the crashing occur because i'm watching a recorded program while the box is trying to record? or is it a problem with what's already been recorded?

Ben: In this case it actually more to do with what the TiVo is doing in the background. When you are recording the TiVo is grabbing and playing that information from the hard drive and trying to concentrate on that, meanwhile in the background it is also trying to fix all these errors. The processor over clocks itself and freezes. Same thing that can happen if a computer tries to run too many web browsers or too many programs at once, the computer will either lock up or crash.​
So, I'm not sure I'm really buying his explanation, especially because he says some things that make no sense, like "over clocks itself and freezes". However, my biggest issue is that as I look at the DVR diagnostics screen, the RS numbers are not going up. There are a couple of hundred errors, and that's it. From reading these forums, it seems like when people have RS issues, the numbers are in the thousands to hundreds of thousands. Also, these displays are dynamic, so I'd think if there were massive errors, those numbers would just go up and up and up.

If anyone has thoughts on acceptable numbers for the DVR diagnostics, I'd appreciate it. I guess I can easily go get an attenuator from Radio Shack, but I really don't believe that's the issue. I can stream Netflix for hours with no problem, whether the Tivo is recording one, two or no channels. As soon as we try to watch a recorded show, we get the freezing/rebooting.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

If you do get an attentuator, Radio shack used to sell a variable one, which makes it easier for adjustmenst rather than a fixed attenuatr where you would have to use several inline to increase the attenuation.

I only had a problem with my signals once, when I had Comast and when I first got the TiVoHD(the S3 never had issues) So that is why I bought the variable attenuator. But once I switched to FiOS I did not need to lower the signal strength on my TiVoHD boxes.

And so far I have not seen any issues yet with my FiOS signals and my Premieres.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

I should also mention that I'm on fios.


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## drewdog (Feb 3, 2007)

I don't know if there is a difference between regular cable rf and fios, but If you put a 20db attenuator on your line, you're pretty much killing the digital signal to that box. Maybe it won't crash anymore, but welcome to a world of picture tiling. The acceptable range in DB in my cable plant is between -7 and +7 (zero being perfect) If that's remotely similar with Fios and your installer wasn't completely inept, then you can imagine what -20 would do to those numbers. I'd suggest having someone come check the line.


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## Chdwil (Jun 20, 2010)

If you need a attenuator to correct bad signals on your cable line that won't help on the upstream(the tuning adapters ability to access switched digital video channels). The upstream will still be corrupted and you will lose channels. Your best solution is to have the cable company come out and test ALL of your lines for ingress or leakage. They need to test all homeruns in your house, grounding blocks, splitters and drop cable and fittings. Any cable tech who does not do this is a waste of time. If you have a weak signal and the cable tech wants to use an amp to increase signal levels, it will also increase ingress(bad) and leakage(bad). Attenuators and amps are band aids, not fixes. Make the cable company fix the real problem or you will always have problems.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Chdwil said:


> If you need a attenuator to correct bad signals on your cable line that won't help on the upstream(the tuning adapters ability to access switched digital video channels). The upstream will still be corrupted and you will lose channels. Your best solution is to have the cable company come out and test ALL of your lines for ingress or leakage. They need to test all homeruns in your house, grounding blocks, splitters and drop cable and fittings. Any cable tech who does not do this is a waste of time. If you have a weak signal and the cable tech wants to use an amp to increase signal levels, it will also increase ingress(bad) and leakage(bad). Attenuators and amps are band aids, not fixes. Make the cable company fix the real problem or you will always have problems.


FiOS should have tested all the lines that would be in use during the initial install. Although iN my area Comcast does not do this. 
I know the FiOS techs here test it, save the results, and then upload them before they leave the install site.
Of course over time it's easy to have other problems.


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## Chdwil (Jun 20, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> FiOS should have tested all the lines that would be in use during the initial install. Although iN my area Comcast does not do this.
> I know the FiOS techs here test it, save the results, and then upload them before they leave the install site.
> Of course over time it's easy to have other problems.


Yes, fios would be different than other cable providers. And fios does not use switched digital video.

But lines could have been damaged in house at any point.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks for the responses; I would like to clarify a few things however:

First, I'm not (outwardly) experiencing any problems with tuning channels, viewing channels, tiling, liveTV, etc. I've had FIOS TV for several years and never had a problem with my Series 2 Tivo. The Verizon tech that came out to take away the FIOS STB and leave me the cablecard did NOT test the lines at all, however, there did not seem to be a reason to at that point. Perhaps a mistake.

The problem I'm having is that when watching recorded programs, I can get anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour into a program, and the PXL will freeze, then reboot itself. Does not seem to happen while watching streaming Netflix. Have not tried watching live TV for long stretches of time, but perhaps I should test that as well.

My real questions are this:
1. Is the explanation for crashing being related to RS Uncorrected and Corrected values legit?

2. Do my RS Uncorrected and Corrected values ( RS Uncorrected = 426, RS Corrected = 112) appear to be a problem?

3. Do the RS Uncorrected and Corrected values that DVR diagnostics display represent actual errors, thousands of errors, rate of errors... ? In other words, if I have 426 errors and then number doesn't change, does that mean errors have stopped, or is it a rate or just what?

4. Do my signal strength, SNR, and RS uncorrected/corrected numbers (signal strength = 98, SNR = 38dB, RS Uncorrected = 426, RS Corrected = 11) look typical/normal, problematic, or obviously an issue?

Again, thanks for the insight and help.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

I've had FiOS TV since '06 and an S3 for 2.5 years. There have been times of very high RS uncorrected, 1000s per minute and more, though not after June 2008. There were also spells of rebooting; those were related to software or hardware issues (an external HDD). High RS Unc. error rates had no correlation to reboots. They manifested in gross pixelation on Live TV and recordings.

I still see the figures you're seeing sometimes in diagnostics, but I don't notice a display or playback problem. If there is no accumulation of RS uncorrected errors after the initial signal lock, all should be pretty much fine. Even if they accumulate slowly, I doubt you'd ever see more than occasional tiling. I don't think your reboots are being caused by the quality of signal. If the values you stated are relatively steady, not fluctuating wildly, you should be fine without any attenuation.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

Sorry to belabor this question, however... the RS figures in DVR diagnostics -- if there are massive errors, these numbers should go up as I watch the diagnostics display, right? 

When I watch the DVR diagnostics screen, these numbers just sit at a couple of hundred... they don't really change unless I change the channel, then it's a different couple of hundred.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

Yes. That's correct. If there is no accumulation of errors after the initial signal lock, I wouldn't worry about them at all. I don't. It varies from channel to channel and over time but there aren't any display symptoms that I've noticed. I did see some tiling once in awhile during the World Cup matches; I assume it was source related. 

Not that it's relevant for you but the attenuator values the CSR mentioned are much too high. When there truly was a FiOS/TiVo issue, appropriate attenuation was achieved through combinations of 3, 6, 8, and 9db attenuators. Most Verizon techs have them. Smart Home also. If weak channels, cable or OTA, drop into the 60's Signal Strength, you will start to lose signal lock. 65 seems to be the threshold; it happens sometimes OTA with very high winds.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

hmm52 said:


> Yes. That's correct. If there is no accumulation of errors after the initial signal lock, I wouldn't worry about them at all. I don't. It varies from channel to channel and over time but there aren't any display symptoms that I've noticed. I did see some tiling once in awhile during the World Cup matches; I assume it was source related.
> 
> Not that it's relevant for you but the attenuator values the CSR mentioned are much too high. When there truly was a FiOS/TiVo issue, appropriate attenuation was achieved through combinations of 3, 6, 8, and 9db attenuators. Most Verizon techs have them. Smart Home also. If weak channels, cable or OTA, drop into the 60's Signal Strength, you will start to lose signal lock. 65 seems to be the threshold; it happens sometimes OTA with very high winds.


Thanks very much hmm52. This kind of solidifies my feeling that the problem is with the Premiere box itself, not the signal from FiOS. I will be calling tonight instead of doing the chat. Goal is to get a third unit sent out. If that doesn't work out I'm afraid I will have to abandon PXL and go back to my Series 2.


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

Just from what I've observed on my Premiere diagnostics screen the numbers you're seeing appear to be normal. I this it's part of tuning into a new channel, every time I change a channel I see RS Uncorrected numbers in the 375-425 range and RS Corrected numbers in the 110-140 range and they don't change any at all.

Are you using the HDUI or the SDUI? I had to change mine to the SDUI because of the same type of lock ups you're describing. I discovered that if I waited 20-30 seconds it would revover and start playing again but that was too much of an aggravation and I switched UIs and haven't had anymore problems.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

TiVo's chat information is disheartening to say the least.

1. Your signal strength and SNR values are perfect -- ideal. Absolutely no need to attenuate the signal if it's below 100 already, and as a previous poster said 20 dB (factor of 100) would kill it. 10 dB (factor of 10) is ridiculous too.

2. Your RS counts are low and not increasing. Do not indicate a problem at all. You are correct that these numbers are cumulative and will increase rapidly if you have continuing signal quality problems.

I think the rationale about processor workload is total BS, especially since there is no processor load for error correction at all when the RS counts are not increasing.

Many posts here indicate the "you need attenuation" advice is a knee-jerk response that is way overused by TiVo support, and doesn't do any good most of the time. There are some cases where it is valid -- but never when the strength is less than 100.

The TiVo design is not robust to varioius problems that can occur with signal and other interfaces it has (e.g., internet), and engineering-level understanding is required to troubleshoot some problems -- something you will never get with first tier customer service reps. Your best hope is that your unit actually is defective so a replacement will fix the problem.

EDIT: The HD vs SD UI issue is a good one to look at. That could be the whole problem for a Premiere.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

donnoh said:


> Just from what I've observed on my Premiere diagnostics screen the numbers you're seeing appear to be normal. I this it's part of tuning into a new channel, every time I change a channel I see RS Uncorrected numbers in the 375-425 range and RS Corrected numbers in the 110-140 range and they don't change any at all.
> 
> Are you using the HDUI or the SDUI? I had to change mine to the SDUI because of the same type of lock ups you're describing. I discovered that if I waited 20-30 seconds it would revover and start playing again but that was too much of an aggravation and I switched UIs and haven't had anymore problems.


Thanks for the insight donnoh. I have been using only SD since getting the box; I don't have an HDTV at this time and PXL was one of my steps to getting to HDTV... :-/

The first PXL froze up after about a week and would not reboot -- just went into a cycle and then evenually froze with all lights on. They shipped me another box which seemed fine until we started actually watching recorded shows on it.

The only loose correlation I've been able to make is that it seems like using the FF a lot brings on the freeze/crash/reboot. I've been trying to catch up on TdF on VS, and so of course need to use FF a lot to get through everything. I've been able to watch about 30-40 minutes at a stretch, then the picture freezes for about 10 sec, starts up again, runs for about 10 sec, then the box crashes and reboots. Basically this device is unusable.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

dlfl said:


> TiVo's chat information is disheartening to say the least.
> 
> 1. Your signal strength and SNR values are perfect -- ideal. Absolutely no need to attenuate the signal if it's below 100 already, and as a previous poster said 20 dB (factor of 100) would kill it. 10 dB (factor of 10) is ridiculous too.
> 
> ...


Thank you dlfl, my thoughts exactly. Re Internet interfaces: I am using wired ethernet into a wireless bridge, but have experienced the crashing with ethernet both connected and unconnected.

(Also, not using HDUI as I don't have HDTV)


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

I don't own a Premiere so my advice is questionable on it. Nevertheless it seems many that do own it are using just SD menus for the time being - for stability and speed. How that could be related to playing back recordings properly, I have no idea but it's worth a try. The Premiere's a work in progress.

FWIW my first 6 months with FiOS were great. The next 12 were on and off dreadful. Since then great again. This is due to changes made by both TiVo (software) and Verizon (at my central office, I believe). Patience paid off eventually. Quite a lot of patience! In the first months with the S3 I requested exchanges (refurbs) twice but kept neither since they both had worse problems than the one I had, and both were awful cosmetically. Recently I bought a second S3 through Ebay from a TCF member - looks like new, works perfectly; 3+ years old, modest price.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

hmm52 said:


> I don't own a Premiere so my advice is questionable on it. Nevertheless it seems many that do own it are using just SD menus for the time being - for stability and speed. How that could be related to playing back recordings properly, I have no idea but it's worth a try. The Premiere's a work in progress.
> 
> FWIW my first 6 months with FiOS were great. The next 12 were on and off dreadful. Since then great again. This is due to changes made by both TiVo (software) and Verizon (at my central office, I believe). Patience paid off eventually. Quite a lot of patience! In the first months with the S3 I requested exchanges (refurbs) twice but kept neither since they both had worse problems than the one I had, and both were awful cosmetically. Recently I bought a second S3 through Ebay from a TCF member - looks like new, works perfectly; 3+ years old, modest price.


If it were a matter of just using the SD menus while they worked out the HD bugs, that would be fine by me (at this point). However, I'm already using SD since I have no HDTV....


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

Understood. You're not asking much of your Premiere and getting far less than acceptable. What does TiVo offer you on exhange, a new or refurbished unit? If it's the latter and still within the original purchase return window, I'd get rid of it and start over.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

hmm52 said:


> Understood. You're not asking much of your Premiere and getting far less than acceptable. What does TiVo offer you on exhange, a new or refurbished unit? If it's the latter and still within the original purchase return window, I'd get rid of it and start over.


The 2nd unit was brand new, since the first was only a week old. I'm about 3.5 weeks in. I've gotta get this figured out tonight...


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

You got the first unit directly from TiVo? Both the first and second Premiere exhibited similar problems? I would think your case must still be open so I wouldn't panic yet. I can send you an e-mail address by pm for someone who could help out if I can dig it up.

One question - You said the reboots occur only upon playing back recordings. When that happens, have you tried resuming play of same? Do you get immediate reboots then, at the same point in each recording?


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

I would seriously look at your Internet connection. I had a B*^%$ of a time trying to get my Premiere to communicate over a wireless connection and finally concluded that was to blame for a lot of my issues. Even though I eventually got it to work the damn thing seems to be dependent on the Internet.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

hmm52 said:


> You got the first unit directly from TiVo? Both the first and second Premiere exhibited similar problems? I would think your case must still be open so I wouldn't panic yet. I can send you an e-mail address by pm for someone who could help out if I can dig it up.
> 
> One question - You said the reboots occur only upon playing back recordings. When that happens, have you tried resuming play of same? Do you get immediate reboots then, at the same point in each recording?


I would not say that they exhibited similar problems. The first one froze once or twice, then was never able to restart again. Was pretty clearly dead.

The second one plays recordings for a while then crashes. I am able to resume play and continue on from the crash point. It does not seem to have anything to do with a specific time in the recording itself. Also, plays streaming Netflix just fine.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

donnoh said:


> I would seriously look at your Internet connection. I had a B*^%$ of a time trying to get my Premiere to communicate over a wireless connection and finally concluded that was to blame for a lot of my issues. Even though I eventually got it to work the damn thing seems to be dependent on the Internet.


I don't feel that the internet connection is a problem. I am using a wireless bridge, so to the Tivo, it's a wired connection. It's always been pretty solid and I don't see why it would crash in the middle of playback because of an internet issue.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

Well I'm stumped. You're seeing symptoms I've never seen - rebooting only on playback of recordings but never with live TV. If reboots were caused by bad sectors on the hard drive, it would most likely reboot immediately on resume play. I did see this a number of times before an external drive bought the farm completely. My guess is that something's seriously awry with the software. I'll dig up the contact's e-mail address and pass it on to you.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

hmm52 said:


> Well I'm stumped. You're seeing symptoms I've never seen - rebooting only on playback of recordings but never with live TV. If reboots were caused by bad sectors on the hard drive, it would most likely reboot immediately on resume play. I did see this a number of times before an external drive bought the farm completely. My guess is that something's seriously awry with the software. I'll dig up the contact's e-mail address and pass it on to you.


Just got off the phone with the Tivo tech support. He insisted that 38dB SNR is too high and it needs to be attenuated to between 29-35 dB. I don't really believe it, but I supposed I'll give it a try. I don't understand why I can watch Netflix streaming for hours while 2 channels record, but as soon as I watch a recorded show while 2 channels record, I get crashes.

Oh, and he constantly referred to SNR as "Sound and Noise Ratio"... not real confidence inspiring.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

To be fair a 38db SNR is higher than I've noticed in diagnostics, by 2 or 3db. Sound and Noise Ratio. I like that. Very colorful! Which is it that's out of whack, the Sound or the Noise? I've got some unused attenuators if desired.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

The idea of SNR being too high is laughable. Signal strength can be "too high" because that can overload tuner circuits. SNR is just the ratio of signal to noise. High SNR is always good (unless it is achieved by signal being too high and overloading the circuits).

I think SNR has become a surrogate for signal strength in TiVo customer service rep land. If noise is fixed (and there's no reason to assume it is), then SNR and signal strength are directly related and that assumption has led to the erroneous concept of SNR being "too high". A year or so ago there was a widespread problem with FIOS of signal strength being too high, requiring attenuation. This was fixed in a software update long ago but I think the "high SNR" syndrome got established at that time and still persists whenever FIOS is involved.

A good fraction of my channels have signal strengths of 100 (which means they are probably more than 100 since that is the maximum reading), and there are no problems with those channels. Note that my TiVo is an HD, not a Premiere, so.... ??


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

hmm52 said:


> To be fair a 38db SNR is higher than I've noticed in diagnostics, by 2 or 3db. Sound and Noise Ratio. I like that. Very colorful! Which is it that's out of whack, the Sound or the Noise? I've got some unused attenuators if desired.


Thanks, I'm going to pick up a few today and see what happens. So far the explanation that the machine crashes because SNR is too high just doesn't sit well with me. I would guess it's a hard-drive issue. 2 shows recording, one show playing, and some fast fowarding seems to bring on a freeze then crash. Who knows, I could be wrong...

Meanwhile, catching up on TdF is proving to be near impossible.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

btitus said:


> Thanks, I'm going to pick up a few today and see what happens. So far the explanation that the machine crashes because SNR is too high just doesn't sit well with me. I would guess it's a hard-drive issue. 2 shows recording, one show playing, and some fast fowarding seems to bring on a freeze then crash. Who knows, I could be wrong...


Easy to see why it wouldn't sit well with you. I offered the attenuators to try just so you could rule one thing out for your own peace of mind. Comparing SS and SNR values from one model or device to another is not valid anyway just as thermometers are useless for accuracy unless they've been calibrated. Something to try with less aggravation would be to simply disconnect the coax and testing scheduled recording playback that way - live signals removed completely; as I recall you've never had reboots with fast forwarding in the buffer of Live TV. The Premiere uses a WD Green HDD, correct? The EVDS and EARS I'm using in two S3s have been rock solid with current software 11.0g, no freezes regardless of who's handling the remote.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

hmm52 said:


> The EVDS and EARS I'm using in two S3s have been rock solid with current software 11.0g, no freezes regardless of who's handling the remote.


11h is coming soon as I just got it on one TiVo Series 3.


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## rcdanielson (Jan 25, 2009)

btitus: Have you read the thread titled "TiVo Desktop & HTTPS crashes Premiere" started by forum member ferror?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=448491

He observed that Premiere lockups are related to the number of recorded programs stored on a Premiere hard drive if Tivo home networking applications are active. His observations are consistent with my experience with Tivo Premiere XL. If the number of stored programs on your Premiere is greater than 100-120, then try reducing the number of stored programs to 70 or less.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

rcdanielson said:


> btitus: Have you read the thread titled "TiVo Desktop & HTTPS crashes Premiere" started by forum member ferror?
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=448491
> 
> He observed that Premiere lockups are related to the number of recorded programs stored on a Premiere hard drive if Tivo home networking applications are active. His observations are consistent with my experience with Tivo Premiere XL. If the number of stored programs on your Premiere is greater than 100-120, then try reducing the number of stored programs to 70 or less.


Not sure I understand what's being suggested. I do have Tivo home networking set up: I have tivo desktop on a PC, and I have my old Series 2 sitting on the network as well (at least until my 3 month grace period ends). However, I'm not using auto-transfer, nor am I doing anything with either the desktop or the series 2 when the crashing happens.

that said, I suppose if there is some kind of polling happening maybe the thought is that that's causing crashing? Sounds tenuous, but I guess I could shut down the Series 2 and the Desktop and see what happens.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

hmm52 said:


> Easy to see why it wouldn't sit well with you. I offered the attenuators to try just so you could rule one thing out for your own peace of mind. Comparing SS and SNR values from one model or device to another is not valid anyway just as thermometers are useless for accuracy unless they've been calibrated. Something to try with less aggravation would be to simply disconnect the coax and testing scheduled recording playback that way - live signals removed completely; as I recall you've never had reboots with fast forwarding in the buffer of Live TV. The Premiere uses a WD Green HDD, correct? The EVDS and EARS I'm using in two S3s have been rock solid with current software 11.0g, no freezes regardless of who's handling the remote.


Thanks for the offer. Of course the RadioShack I went to at lunchtime did not have attenuators, nor did the employees know what I was talking about.... grrrrrrr. Does RadioShack generally carry these? They have all manner of other coax adapters, boosters, and splitters.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

hmm52 said:


> Easy to see why it wouldn't sit well with you. I offered the attenuators to try just so you could rule one thing out for your own peace of mind. Comparing SS and SNR values from one model or device to another is not valid anyway just as thermometers are useless for accuracy unless they've been calibrated. Something to try with less aggravation would be to simply disconnect the coax and testing scheduled recording playback that way - live signals removed completely; as I recall you've never had reboots with fast forwarding in the buffer of Live TV. The Premiere uses a WD Green HDD, correct? The EVDS and EARS I'm using in two S3s have been rock solid with current software 11.0g, no freezes regardless of who's handling the remote.


Also, I did test with the coax disconnected, and it seemed like the unit was stable. Unfortunately, that doesn't really prove that SNR is the culprit. It's all very frustrating!


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

rcdanielson said:


> btitus: Have you read the thread titled "TiVo Desktop & HTTPS crashes Premiere" started by forum member ferror?
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=448491
> 
> He observed that Premiere lockups are related to the number of recorded programs stored on a Premiere hard drive if Tivo home networking applications are active. His observations are consistent with my experience with Tivo Premiere XL. If the number of stored programs on your Premiere is greater than 100-120, then try reducing the number of stored programs to 70 or less.


I have 2tb drive on my Premiere with almost 400 programs and have never seen this this problem using the SDUI. I consistantly copy programs from my Premiere to my PC with no problems.
Using the HDUI all bets are off as it seems that any number of combinations can cause it to crash. My advice is to switch to the SDUI.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

btitus said:


> Also, I did test with the coax disconnected, and it seemed like the unit was stable. Unfortunately, that doesn't really prove that SNR is the culprit. It's all very frustrating!


SNR wasn't a suspect; maybe something in the signal, but really it's still software that's suspicious. RS and BB don't carry coax barrel attenuators as far as I know. If you're not sick of experimenting, put each tuner on low number SD channels while playing back recordings. Make sure the ONT is grounded well. Run a supplemental ground to the nearby splitter for now. Extraneous voltage at coax inputs did cause reboots on my S3 in the past.


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## mae (Dec 10, 2001)

btitus said:


> Thanks for the offer. Of course the RadioShack I went to at lunchtime did not have attenuators, nor did the employees know what I was talking about.... grrrrrrr. Does RadioShack generally carry these? They have all manner of other coax adapters, boosters, and splitters.


As a quick test, you can use a 2-way splitter to get about -3.5db drop and and a 3 or 4 way for more. If you use it for any period of time, it should have terminators on the unused ports, but it could be way to see if some attenuation helps.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

mae said:


> As a quick test, you can use a 2-way splitter to get about -3.5db drop and and a 3 or 4 way for more. If you use it for any period of time, it should have terminators on the unused ports, but it could be way to see if some attenuation helps.


i think i can actually put my hands on one of those, thanks!


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## Chdwil (Jun 20, 2010)

btitus said:


> i think i can actually put my hands on one of those, thanks!


FYI most splitters available at any store are total garbage. They will cause you problems. Lots of ingress(bad) and signal leaks.

Try and get some quality splitters from a cable tech or supplier.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

btitus said:


> Also, I did test with the coax disconnected, and it seemed like the unit was stable. Unfortunately, that doesn't really prove that SNR is the culprit. It's all very frustrating!


Part of the idea was to give you a way to catch up on the Tour de France while experimenting - providing that coax disconnect does stop the reboots. If this is still so, there's good reason to check the cable and cable ends back to the ONT - no shielding intruding at terminal ends, no staples shot through casing, good ground at ONT, etc. I really doubt that attenuation will do anything; you have no issues with Live TV. Better chance with good ground though still a remote one.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

dlfl said:


> The idea of SNR being too high is laughable. Signal strength can be "too high" because that can overload tuner circuits. SNR is just the ratio of signal to noise. High SNR is always good (unless it is achieved by signal being too high and overloading the circuits).
> 
> I think SNR has become a surrogate for signal strength in TiVo customer service rep land. If noise is fixed (and there's no reason to assume it is), then SNR and signal strength are directly related and that assumption has led to the erroneous concept of SNR being "too high". A year or so ago there was a widespread problem with FIOS of signal strength being too high, requiring attenuation. This was fixed in a software update long ago but I think the "high SNR" syndrome got established at that time and still persists whenever FIOS is involved.
> 
> A good fraction of my channels have signal strengths of 100 (which means they are probably more than 100 since that is the maximum reading), and there are no problems with those channels. Note that my TiVo is an HD, not a Premiere, so.... ??


I was thinking the same thing -- don't I want the highest SNR I can possibly get? Was looking at signal strengths this morning and tuning both channels to high numbers, I'm getting 95 or 96 dB steady signal, with SNR around 37/38. Also, when I first turned the TV on to check, the TiVo was in the middle of rebooting. Not encouraging.

Unfortunately, I also don't have all day to watch TV, waiting for it to crash. I just wish the thing would fail already and save me the troubleshooting time...

Edit:
Also, it's not like I'm having a problem with my channels. All channels tune, they look fine, no artifacts, etc. It's just that the box crashes while I watch recorded programs. SNR is a concept the support chat guy brought into the picture, but I don't really see based on my numbers how that is directly related to box freezing and rebooting.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

btitus said:


> It's just that the box crashes while I watch recorded programs.


I want to make one particular point: You are *always* watching "recorded programs". The TiVo always records a program to disk and plays it back for you. Even when you watch "live" you are watching a recorded program being played back from disk.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I want to make one particular point: You are *always* watching "recorded programs". The TiVo always records a program to disk and plays it back for you. Even when you watch "live" you are watching a recorded program being played back from disk.


Yeah I was thinking about that today and realized the same thing. Thanks.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

You have also witnessed a reboot that had nothing to do with playback of a scheduled recording, unless one was playing through the night......


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

hmm52 said:


> You have also witnessed a reboot that had nothing to do with playback of a scheduled recording, unless one was playing through the night......


yep, you're right.

This evening I tried using an old splitter I had to knock down the signal level, but it didn't really do anything. maybe knocked 1 dB off signal and SNR didn't really change. I have not found a local source of in-line attenuators, so haven't really been able to truly test the support guy's hypothesis.

Was watching some TdF after work and got about 40 minutes in before freeze/crash.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

Your local source would be the VZ tech who did the cc installation or last service call. He/she leave a contact number? As said though, I think attenuation of signal very unlikely to help.


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

All,
Haven't really made any progress with my PXL issues. Still freeze/crashing pretty regularly. I wonder if the 14.5 update will address anything -- is there a way to force download of it to my machine?


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## btitus (Dec 18, 2008)

Well, I don't want to jinx anything, but since getting the 14.5 update Friday, I have experienced *no *freezes or crashes. I was able to watch many hours of recorded TV, plus streaming netflix with no crashing, freezing, or rebooting.

I'm thinking they must have addressed stability issues in 14.5, because it certainly seems like a changed machine.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

That's great. It seems that not all that much patience was required in your case; enough to carry you past the 30 day return window though. There must be many TiVo owners who have unused attenuators in a drawer. There was actually a time when they mitigated a real but different problem, mainly with FiOS.


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## slicnic911 (Jul 30, 2010)

First post!

I am experiencing those exact symptoms on a Series 3 but with an OTA antenna signal. The TiVo tech also recommended an attenuator (a 6dB one). I actually ended up getting the first unit replaced because it failed a kickstart hard drive test, but the replacement that just came in is rebooting like crazy also. 

When it stays on long enough to get to DVR Diags, I find the strength to be in the mid 90's and the SNR hovering at 30-31. Does this sound correct for an OTA signal? Now that I've pretty much ruled out the box as the problem, I'm getting frustrated on how to calibrate the signal so the TiVo will like it. It's also frustrating that it worked without a hitch for the first four months I owned the first box...

Thanks for any help!


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

slicnic911 said:


> I am experiencing those exact symptoms on a Series 3 but with an OTA antenna signal. The TiVo tech also recommended an attenuator (a 6dB one).


You should raise your issue in the Series 3 forum, I believe the Premiere problems are somewhat different. Also IIRC I have never read any credible reasons for using an attenuator with OTA signals. The most common reason for an attenuator is for older FiOS installations.

P.S. I don't think that hearing it from some TiVo chat script monkey is a "credible reason" for using an attenuator. The older FiOS ONTs supplied a very hot signal which the TiVo couldn't cope with for at least 18 months. Then a software fix came out and fixed most if not all of the problems and there were many reports of people removing attenuators and still being happy.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

slicnic911 said:


> First post!
> 
> I am experiencing those exact symptoms on a Series 3 but with an OTA antenna signal. The TiVo tech also recommended an attenuator (a 6dB one). I actually ended up getting the first unit replaced because it failed a kickstart hard drive test, but the replacement that just came in is rebooting like crazy also.
> 
> ...


These OTA diagnostic values are very good. The source of the problem is not with your OTA signal as long as it doesn't fall to 60s SS. The only reason for attenuation on antenna input would be to keep a preamp, if used, from overdriving the level. You shouldn't rule out the box as the problem. Though some have, I had no luck with refurb exchanges. I returned both as they had worse problems than mine - reboot loops with them. My original S3 improved with better software and is still going strong; recently with a larger hard drive.


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## slicnic911 (Jul 30, 2010)

Thanks guys. I have raised the issue in the Series3 forum. Still getting mixed suggestions, but am looking further into the antenna and possible grounding issues.
I am not sure how I would convince TiVo to send another replacement when it works fine with no antenna connection. The last two techs I spoke with were convinced if the box works without the antenna plugged up the problem HAS to be with the antenna...


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

You should put further posts on the series thread you also posted on. But what exactly is your setup and what is working fine? Are you running a cable input with or without cablecards? Is it a rooftop antenna with or without a preamp? How old is the wiring? Was it a similar problem before the recent 11.0h update?


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