# DIRECTV and TiVo to Launch New HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service



## trausch

http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=504621

EL SEGUNDO and ALVISO, Calif., Sept. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- DIRECTV, Inc. (Nasdaq: DTV), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, and TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), announced today that they have extended their current agreement, which includes the development, marketing and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo(R) service, as well as the extension of mutual intellectual property arrangements.

Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo(R) service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.

DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services.

"We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV. Together we brought the TiVo experience to millions of DIRECTV customers and now we look forward to launching a next generation product that uses TiVo's latest features to truly showcase DIRECTV's broad selection of high-definition programming -- all stitched together with the elegance of TiVo's renowned user experience," said Tom Rogers, TiVo's CEO and president. "This agreement demonstrates our continued embrace of mass distribution opportunities in cooperation with major multichannel operators who recognize the value of giving their customers a choice of compelling user experiences."

Like prior products developed by TiVo and DIRECTV, the new HD offering will be marketed and sold by DIRECTV nationally to its entire customer base as part of its growing portfolio of brand name video offerings. Specific consumer pricing and packaging will be announced in conjunction with DIRECTV's launch of the product.

"As the industry's content and technology leader, DIRECTV has a long-standing reputation for developing innovative, advanced products and services, including our highly successful series of DVRs and HD DVRs," said Chase Carey, president and CEO, DIRECTV, Inc. "We will continue to work with TiVo and make this new product available to all new and existing DIRECTV customers who may want to add TiVo on top of our industry leading experience."

DIRECTV and TiVo began their relationship in 2000 with the launch of the first DIRECTV DVR with TiVo service. In April 2006, the companies announced an extension of their commercial and advertising relationship and those commercial and advertising capabilities are further extended, and now include the new HD platform. DIRECTV and TiVo also recently deployed a software update to existing DIRECTV with TiVo boxes, which enables new features like DIRECTV's Remote Booking.

Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.

About DIRECTV, Inc.

DIRECTV, Inc. (NASDAQ: DTV), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, presents the finest television experience available to more than 17.1 million customers in the United States and is leading the HD revolution with more than 130 HD channels -- more quality HD channels than any other television provider. Each day, DIRECTV subscribers enjoy access to over 265 channels of 100% digital picture and sound, exclusive programming, industry-leading customer satisfaction (which has surpassed all national cable companies for eight years running) and superior technologies that include advanced DVR and HD-DVR services and the most state-of-the-art interactive sports packages available anywhere. For the most up-to-date information on DIRECTV, please visit directv.com.

About TiVo Inc

Founded in 1997, TiVo (NASDAQ: TIVO) pioneered a brand new category of products with the development of the first commercially available digital video recorder (DVR). Sold through leading consumer electronic retailers, TiVo has developed a brand which resonates boldly with consumers as providing a superior television experience. Through agreements with leading satellite and cable providers, TiVo also integrates its DVR service features into the set-top boxes of mass distributors. TiVo's DVR functionality and ease of use, with such features as Season Pass(R) recordings, WishList(R) searches, and TiVo KidZone, have elevated its popularity among consumers and have created a whole new way for viewers to watch television. With a continued investment in its patented technologies, TiVo is revolutionizing the way consumers watch and access home entertainment. Rapidly becoming the focal point of the digital living room, TiVo's DVR is at the center of experiencing new forms of content on the TV, such as broadband delivered video, music and photos. With innovative features such as TiVoToGo(TM) and online scheduling, TiVo is expanding the notion of consumers experiencing "TiVo, TV your way.(R)" The TiVo(R) service is also at the forefront of providing innovative marketing solutions for the television industry, including the Stop||Watch(TM) commercial and program rankings service, a unique platform for advertisers and media companies. The Company is based in Alviso, California.

TiVo, the TiVo logo, Season Pass, WishList, Swivel, Stop||Watch, TiVoToGo, and 'TiVo, TV your way.' are trademarks or registered trademarks of TiVo Inc. or its subsidiaries worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

This release contains certain forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements relate to, among other things, the timing and nature of future development and distribution of DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service, the future availability of interactive advertising capabilities and future negotiations between TiVo and DIRECTV on other product initiatives. Forward-looking statements generally can be identified by the use of forward-looking terminology such as, "believe," "expect," "may," "will," "intend," "estimate," "continue," or similar expressions or the negative of those terms or expressions. Such statements involve risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to vary materially from those expressed in or indicated by the forward-looking statements. Factors that may cause actual results to differ materially include delays in development, competitive service offerings and lack of market acceptance, as well as the other potential factors described under "Risk Factors" in DIRECTV's public reports and TiVo's public reports, including each company's most recent Annual Report on Form 10-K and subsequent current and quarterly reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Each of DIRECTV and TiVo cautions you not to place undue reliance on forward-looking statements, which reflect an analysis only and speak only as of the date hereof. Each of DIRECTV and TiVo disclaim any obligation to update these forward-looking statements.

SOURCE TiVo Inc.


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## gadgetgrrll

Amazing news! I'm so glad they finally listened!


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## mohanman

Its too long to read, can someone just tell me will it support tivotogo, and multiroom? those are the most important features to me.
Mo


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## Iceblade

No mention of those specific features.

regs,
Jeff


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## shibby191

Being discussed here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=404044

Good for DirecTV and Tivo.


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## newsposter

so why in the world would they do this if their box is so successful? this means paying tivo more fees etc. 

makes no financial sense at all unless tivo did a kickback or something to keep afloat


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## dswallow

newsposter said:


> so why in the world would they do this if their box is so successful? this means paying tivo more fees etc.
> 
> makes no financial sense at all unless tivo did a kickback or something to keep afloat


Because it's still better to offer choices than to force a single solution on everyone.


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## Gunnyman

because Rupert Murdoch isn't running things anymore.


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## nrc

mohanman said:


> Its too long to read, can someone just tell me will it support tivotogo, and multiroom? those are the most important features to me.
> Mo


No mention of those specific features, but there is hope given the statement that "The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone."


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## Combat Medic

I wonder what the chances are of MRV between a cable card tivo and a DirecTV Tivo are.


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## shibby191

newsposter said:


> so why in the world would they do this if their box is so successful? this means paying tivo more fees etc.
> 
> makes no financial sense at all unless tivo did a kickback or something to keep afloat


Well, tomorrow is the big day for Dish and the patent suit. So DirecTV may have gotten wind that Dish would invest/buy/offer Tivo DVRs and decided it was in their best interest to keep Tivo away from Charlie and do it themselves. Who knows really. The press release does say that DirecTV will keep on with their own line of DVRs so those aren't going away and it seems to indicate that the Tivo software can be loaded onto the current hardware at an extra charge.


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## CuriousMark

shibby191 said:


> Well, tomorrow is the big day for Dish and the patent suit.


It probably won't be that big a day. Oral arguments for an hour and then the judge goes away to decide. At most people will pull tone of voice and body language cues from tomorrow, and that will be about it.

Wait, some big money numbers will get thrown around too. Those probably won't get decided on the spot either, but the numbers may come as a surprise to many.


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## Sapphire

Combat Medic said:


> I wonder what the chances are of MRV between a cable card tivo and a DirecTV Tivo are.


Interesting thought. I wonder what CableLabs would have to say about that.

I also hope they (DTV) get rid of the phone line requirement.


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## sdchrgrboy

Raj said:


> Interesting thought. I wonder what CableLabs would have to say about that.
> 
> I also hope they (DTV) get rid of the phone line requirement
> .


Where is all the posters who said this would never ever happen. Time to eat some crow


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## Scooter

Raj said:


> Interesting thought. I wonder what CableLabs would have to say about that.
> 
> I also hope they (DTV) get rid of the phone line requirement.


You can have DIRECTV without a phone line these days.

Scooter


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## packerfan

Even though I liked the tivo interface when I've had it, I've come to like the directv hd dvrs quite a bit. I've got three of them, all with external hard drives attached for additional storage. I'll have to monitor the situation with tivo, but I don't think I will switch, unless they can provide me with the same features.


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## iaflyer

Incredible! I had given up on DirecTV to have a Tivo interface. I finally had to switch to the HR21, but after using it for a while (a month) I still miss the Tivo.

I was contemplating switching to cable since we already get our internet access from Comcast - but I'll probably stick with DirecTV until late 2009 when this is scheduled to arrive.


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## shibby191

Raj said:


> I also hope they (DTV) get rid of the phone line requirement.


They haven't had that requirement for a while. Just plug it into the Internet and you're good to go. Or don't plug it into anything. The DirecTivo's required a phone line so they could call back to Tivo.


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## bacevedo

packerfan said:


> Even though I liked the tivo interface when I've had it, I've come to like the directv hd dvrs quite a bit. I've got three of them, all with external hard drives attached for additional storage. I'll have to monitor the situation with tivo, but I don't think I will switch, unless they can provide me with the same features.


I am in the same boat. I have had an HR20-100 for quite a while. I then got a new Tivo HD and went OTA for about 6 months (suspending my D service). I just recently started up the D service again and am using the HR20. I actually found myself liking the HR20 interface better. I haven't had the issues that others have had (missed recordings, blank recordings, etc.) so I have full trust in it.

However, I will monitor what the new Tivo will be like with D. By the time it comes out, my contract will be up and I should be in a good position to negotiate for one if I decide I want it.

I would equate the HR20 and Tivo "wars" to be like that of PC users vs Mac users. The HR20 is more of PC while the Tivo is more of a Mac. PC users will be just fine with an interface that isn't as "flashy" to get more "geek" tools (i.e. boolean search operators on the HR20, etc.). Mac users want more "form" over function - they want to look good while doing it.

As for stability between Tivo and HR20 - my HR20 has been as stable as my Tivo HD. I see just as many issues posted for both units - they both have problems.

I am still shocked that this announcment was made. I was one that never said never, but am still surprised after all this time that they finally went back. It will be nice to have options when my contract is up.

Now we have to get ready for all of the "Why did DirecTV leave this feature out?" threads that will pop up in about a year. 

Bryan


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## newsposter

just note without an connection to a dvr you have to do PPV thru the internet, cant use the remote


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## JimSpence

I suggest that a new sub-forum be created to house all of the threads about the new TiVo based DirecTV DVR.


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## pretzelbag

I'm just glad to know that I will have a choice from (hopefully no later than) 31 Dec 2009 onward. I have both an HR10-250 and an HR21-100 (as well as a Series 3), and they each have their benefits, so it will be nice to let me choose which one I want for which room/TV/scenario.

I must admit the Series 3 remote kicks the ass of the others -- backlit, best layout for my fingers, etc. I hope that makes it into the 2009 TiVo HD DVR.

-pretzelbag.


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## bengalfreak

sdchrgrboy said:


> Where is all the posters who said this would never ever happen. Time to eat some crow


<--Munching happily.


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## JimSpence

I'm wondering if this might allow some upgrades to HR10-250s. I know that MPEG4 is out of the question, but I'm sure there are other things that could be done to improve this unit.


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## skaeight

I'm pretty happy with my HR20. If this doesn't cost anymore monthly I may consider getting one, but I kind of doubt it at this point (I can almost guarantee they offer this like Comcast is - with an additional monthly fee. Especially if it runs on the same hardware and is just a "software upgrade".) The HR20 is improving all the time, and for the most part "it just works". Maybe if I were to get another HDTV I'd consider it, but that probably won't be happening anytime soon.

It's good for people who like tivo though.


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## HofstraJet

I'll bet that the TiVo units will be premium units that will carry an additional charge.


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## Dssturbo1

Raj said:


> Interesting thought. I wonder what CableLabs would have to say about that.
> 
> I also hope they (DTV) get rid of the phone line requirement.


what phone line requirement??

my hr10-250 ran just fine for 1289 days without a phone line connection. just last week decided to take an update, connected the phone line and went from from 3.1.5e to 6.4a 

two new hr21 and 3 older dtv receivers are not on a phone line either.


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## AJRitz

shibby191 said:


> Well, tomorrow is the big day for Dish and the patent suit. So DirecTV may have gotten wind that Dish would invest/buy/offer Tivo DVRs and decided it was in their best interest to keep Tivo away from Charlie and do it themselves. Who knows really. The press release does say that DirecTV will keep on with their own line of DVRs so those aren't going away and it seems to indicate that the Tivo software can be loaded onto the current hardware at an extra charge.


What part of the word "non-exclusive" do you not understand? DirecTV may be trying to be first to partner with TiVo, but it's not an either/or for the TiVo folks. They can turn around tomorrow and announce a deal with Dish to provide software for DishDVRs too (though it won't happen, because Charlie doesn't believe in paying for stuff).


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## cfryer

I do enjoy my Series 3 but don't have much love for Comcast. Looking forward to the oppurtunity to move back to Directv. Great news!


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## Castaa

Oh man the timing of this announcement. My HR10-250 just went out on me this weekend. I was just about to start considering the non-TiVO D* options. But still no word on when this new box will be available.


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## pretzelbag

Castaa said:


> But still no word on when this new box will be available.


From the press release:

"TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009."

I agree it's not as definitive as one would like, but it's better than nothing. You can assume July 1 or December 31, 2009 based on your optimism or pessimism...personally, since Tivo has worked extensively with DirecTV in the past and still makes very good DVRs for non-D* use, I'd like to think that the timeframe is reasonable. At the very least it's not two companies that have never worked together and which don't currently make DVRs.

On the other hand, the technology industry is littered with devices announced or promised or half-developed but never shipped (see Wired's annual vaporware awards for a trip down memory lane), so until these new TiVos start rolling off the assembly line, nothing is certain.

-pretzelbag.


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## sjberra

Castaa said:


> Oh man the timing of this announcement. My HR10-250 just went out on me this weekend. I was just about to start considering the non-TiVO D* options. But still no word on when this new box will be available.


Read the press release - at least teh second half of 2009, so 8-9 months from now minimum not counting design and R&D time overruns


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## incog-neato

They were about 2 yrs late with the "Comcast TiVo SOFTWARE upgrade (disaster)" and were many months late with the HR10-250 ...... so don't hold your breath for pre-orders" just yet. 



sjberra said:


> Read the press release - at least teh second half of 2009, so 8-9 months from now minimum not counting design and R&D time overruns


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## GKevinK

Even if it's an exclamation that is past it's prime...

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!


I've been dragging my feet holding onto my 10-250 and putting off getting the HR-20 as long as I possibly could. This football season DirecTV forced my hand by moving the high definition broadcasts of the NFL Sunday Ticket onto the mpeg4 satellite, but I'm PSYCHED that I'll be able to replace it with a TiVo based DirecTV receiver in 2 years.

Maybe taking the time to mention my TiVo preference each and every time I've had occasion to communicate with DirecTV has finally helped. I even told them that I was forced to upgrade my Comcast service to digital so I could use a TiVo HD because of DirecTV's move away from TiVo.

The future looks much brighter suddenly.


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## Adam1115

Raj said:


> Interesting thought. I wonder what CableLabs would have to say about that.
> 
> I also hope they (DTV) get rid of the phone line requirement.


They would have nothing to say about it.

I can already transfer SD encrypted content to my series2 and HD content to an OTA series3.

The content provider can determine weather or not it can be transferred.


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## Charlutz

Good news. Freedom of choice and market competition is always a good thing. I had two Hr10's and have three Hr20/21s now. I've learned to appreciate the things the 20/21's do better and miss the things the tivo did better. The best part is that directv gave them all to me for free, except for one of the tivos which when I sold it more than covered the $200 it cost me. I've been more than pleased with directv even if they haven't been perfect. I'm looking forward to trying the new box.


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## madbeachcat

I am one of those who said that ship has sailed. Well, I was wrong, and I am happy that it seems some of you (most ) will be getting what you have been wanting. But for me, my HR21 will remain my primary receiver. If the price is low enough to justify the purchase, I may try the ney HD DirecTivo, but no way will I come close to paying a $1000, like the HR10 when it came out.

Plus, it should have some of the new features of the HR21 added to it. An additional $5 a monthj would be OK just to check it out. But if's around $15 extra, no way.

Just my 2 cents.


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## LlamaLarry

Where do we sign up to alpha/beta the new units and/or deployment to HR2*?


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## Cudahy

Maybe by next spring they'll be beta testing. Wonder if it'll do any good to ask Directv to put me on a first out list?


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## T-Wolves

Fantastic news. As nice as the HR20 boxes are, I've missed my old TiVo systems. I'll switch back to TiVo as soon as they let me. :up:


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## BOBCAT

Down the road, if Directv has a pre-order sign up list, they can put me down for 4!
The only thing that I will miss is some of the recordings that I have on my HR10-250's. Wish that there was some way of transferring them into the new box. 
The only time I ever use my hr20's is when there is something in HD that I want to see, which is not too often. They are so aggravating to use.

The best part of the whole deal is that I will be able to take my 2 hr20's down to the E-wast depot and have the pleasure of tossing them into the dump box. Sense I bought them on ebay, will not have to return them.


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## sjberra

LlamaLarry said:


> Where do we sign up to alpha/beta the new units and/or deployment to HR2*?


reread the press release, it states that the Directv DVRS will continue to be the primary units and that the Tivo based units will be available as a alternate choice to existing and new customers. It then goes on to state that the pricing structure has not been determined yet.


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## mp11

sjberra said:


> reread the press release, it states that the Directv DVRS will continue to be the primary units and that the Tivo based units will be available as a alternate choice to existing and new customers. It then goes on to state that the pricing structure has not been determined yet.


Hopefully Directv doesnt screw people over by requiring a subbed HR series before they can get a Tivo as an additional unit. In other words the Tivo is only available as an addition to *thier* DVR. That would suck.


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## sjberra

mp11 said:


> Hopefully Directv doesnt screw people over by requiring a subbed HR series before they can get a Tivo as an additional unit. In other words the Tivo is only available as an addition to *thier* DVR. That would suck.


Means nothing to me, want to dump both the TIVO based units and the HR2X based units that I have on my account in favor of a true interface to the HTPC equipment I have.

As far as "screw people over" and "that would suck" is a matter of opinion. Personally I detest the TIVO interface, but again this is personal opinion, if it was the only game in town for the content, then would suffer with it, but it is not so I applaud them for giving a choice, now add the perfect (in my opinion) 3rd choice of a full interface to a HTPC without a USB base interface as what is indicated in the sparse reports on it, then things would be perfect

Just going by what is in the press release, which is the only verifiable piece of information out there, there is a good chance, given the wording of the release that to have a TIVO based unit the end user will be paying a surcharge for it.


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## RS4

sjberra said:


> Means nothing to me, want to dump both the TIVO based units and the HR2X based units that I have on my account in favor of a true interface to the HTPC equipment I have.
> 
> As far as "screw people over" and "that would suck" is a matter of opinion. Personally I detest the TIVO interface, but again this is personal opinion, if it was the only game in town for the content, then would suffer with it, but it is not so I applaud them for giving a choice, now add the perfect (in my opinion) 3rd choice of a full interface to a HTPC without a USB base interface as what is indicated in the sparse reports on it, then things would be perfect
> 
> Just going by what is in the press release, which is the only verifiable piece of information out there, there is a good chance, given the wording of the release that to have a TIVO based unit the end user will be paying a surcharge for it.


For someone who says they 'detest' the Tivo interface, you sure seem to spend a lot of time here. I would suggest you look at other forums - perhaps you would find folks more to your line of thinking


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## orome

Good news. Once it's in stock and settled down, I'll return to their service.


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## bigpuma

mp11 said:


> Hopefully Directv doesnt screw people over by requiring a subbed HR series before they can get a Tivo as an additional unit. In other words the Tivo is only available as an addition to *thier* DVR. That would suck.


I can't imagine that being the case. I do see a higher price for the TiVo vs. the HR2x series but I don't see why they would force someone to have an HR2x before getting TiVo.


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## dswallow

bigpuma said:


> I can't imagine that being the case. I do see a higher price for the TiVo vs. the HR2x series but I don't see why they would force someone to have an HR2x before getting TiVo.


You have to understand "the sky is falling" mindset.


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## sjberra

RS4 said:


> For someone who says they 'detest' the Tivo interface, you sure seem to spend a lot of time here. I would suggest you look at other forums - perhaps you would find folks more to your line of thinking


Very interesting comment neighbor, at least I still have DirectTivo units in place (both HD and SD units) and being used plus I have an active account with Directv. You have mentioned you no longer do.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...hlight=comcast



RS4 said:


> Yes, I recently switched from Direct to Comcast. I had Comcast before for my broadband, so it was very easy to get a Tivo HD and try it out for 30 days. You can't do that with the D* dvrs - as soon as they are in your house, you're stuck with them for 2 years unless you pay a hefty cancellation fee.


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## RS4

sjberra said:


> Very interesting comment neighbor, at least I still have DirectTivo units in place (both HD and SD units) and being used plus I have an active account with Directv. You have mentioned you no longer do.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...hlight=comcast


I'm not quite sure what my leaving D* in favor of staying with Tivo has to do with the subject. It's quite clear from your posts that you could care less about Tivo. I was merely trying to point out that this is a Tivo community forum, so your suggestion of using a PC as a dvr, along with all your other negative feelings about Tivo might be better received in other forums or message boards.

I've always had a strong interest in the satellite technology, probably stemming back to the early 80's when I bought my first 12 foot C-band dish, and then was a very early customer of D*. I've yet to find anyone with a lower customer number then mine.

Ever since Murdoch took over D*, I felt they started a down-hill spiral where the customer was concerned. I now hope they have reached the bottom, and perhaps will start looking at the customers as an equal partner in the stockholders vs customers relationship.

I think D* has re-energized this relationship with Tivo because they recognized that after 3 years, they had a dvr that was still considered second class by folks who owned or knew about Tivos. D* has stated many times that the client they are after is the very clients they lost when many of us left. Also, D* is now in third place in their growth - a huge drop considering their biggest asset to date is the number of HD channels along with the exclusive sports. We've also seen that Tivo has made a big effort at gaining more access to the internet video streams. It makes perfect sense to me that D* is now renewing this relationship with Tivo. They won't be losing customers because of this and instead will now be a consideration for many folks. Who knows, if they drop that silly commitment, even I might come back at some time.

So, I have always maintained a strong interest in this forum along with the other Tivo forums. And because of my interest in the satellite industry, I probably know more about D* than the majority of people on this forum.

I've felt well-qualified to post responses on this forum and others in this family. I've tried to offer suggestions to those that were considering alternatives, along with encouraging others such as Blankmann to let D* know how upset we were with what they were doing.

The net is that I think we have 2 completely different set of motives. I feel all you offer is negativity towards Tivo, and any suggestions of folks including myself who were trying to let others know how we felt were shot down with great enthusiasm. I on the other hand hope to see Tivo continue to grow, because I feel they are on the right track of of getting broadband video up and running. In the mean time, I'm glad to see D* realize that they are once again strengthening their offerings.


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## sjberra

RS4 said:


> I'm not quite sure what my leaving D* in favor of staying with Tivo has to do with the subject. It's quite clear from your posts that you could care less about Tivo. I was merely trying to point out that this is a Tivo community forum, so your suggestion of using a PC as a dvr, along with all your other negative feelings about Tivo might be better received in other forums or message boards.
> 
> I've always had a strong interest in the satellite technology, probably stemming back to the early 80's when I bought my first 12 foot C-band dish, and then was a very early customer of D*. I've yet to find anyone with a lower customer number then mine.
> 
> Ever since Murdoch took over D*, I felt they started a down-hill spiral where the customer was concerned. I now hope they have reached the bottom, and perhaps will start looking at the customers as an equal partner in the stockholders vs customers relationship.
> 
> I think D* has re-energized this relationship with Tivo because they recognized that after 3 years, they had a dvr that was still considered second class by folks who owned or knew about Tivos. D* has stated many times that the client they are after is the very clients they lost when many of us left. Also, D* is now in third place in their growth - a huge drop considering their biggest asset to date is the number of HD channels along with the exclusive sports. We've also seen that Tivo has made a big effort at gaining more access to the internet video streams. It makes perfect sense to me that D* is now renewing this relationship with Tivo. They won't be losing customers because of this and instead will now be a consideration for many folks. Who knows, if they drop that silly commitment, even I might come back at some time.
> 
> So, I have always maintained a strong interest in this forum along with the other Tivo forums. And because of my interest in the satellite industry, I probably know more about D* than the majority of people on this forum.
> 
> I've felt well-qualified to post responses on this forum and others in this family. I've tried to offer suggestions to those that were considering alternatives, along with encouraging others such as Blankmann to let D* know how upset we were with what they were doing.
> 
> The net is that I think we have 2 completely different set of motives. I feel all you offer is negativity towards Tivo, and any suggestions of folks including myself who were trying to let others know how we felt were shot down with great enthusiasm. I on the other hand hope to see Tivo continue to grow, because I feel they are on the right track of of getting broadband video up and running. In the mean time, I'm glad to see D* realize that they are once again strengthening their offerings.


Bottom line point neighbor - I still have Directv Tivo units in place and operating, it does not matter if I detest the interface or worship the interface as the almighty powerful TIVO interface.

By the same token - you offer nothing but negativity on any interface that does not have the 4 letter TIVO on it, so what is the difference?

Curious - considering what Directv's financials state, would love to see a validation link to this statement

"D* has stated many times that the client they are after is the very clients they lost when many of us left. "

By way of a valid validation I mean a link to a verifiable site, SEC filings, Directv Website, etc not a 3rd party validation that cannot be proven

Not going into any other detail or your other comments, not worth the effort


----------



## timlinca

This is great news! I'm switching back as soon as they make the new TiVo available. I'll send my "free" HR21 back with a nice note thanking them for letting me use it for a year and pay them whatever they want for the new TiVo:^)

Tim


----------



## Rowsdower

Combat Medic said:


> I wonder what the chances are of MRV between a cable card tivo and a DirecTV Tivo are.


The number of households with both CableCARDs _and_ DirecTV service must be negligible.


----------



## dswallow

Rowsdower said:


> The number of households with both CableCARDs _and_ DirecTV service must be negligible.


Mostly because neither lets you truly buy programming a la carte; they each want to build up from the basic tier adding subsequent layers on top of each other, so you always end up with significant duplication of channels (and costs) before you get to anything that's really unique to only one service.


----------



## Adam1115

dswallow said:


> Mostly because neither lets you truly buy programming a la carte; they each want to build up from the basic tier adding subsequent layers on top of each other, so you always end up with significant duplication of channels (and costs) before you get to anything that's really unique to only one service.


True. For quite awhile I had cable and Dish network.

Even with the $5 surcharge, HBO was still cheaper with Dish. Comcast required you to have digital starter to get HBO.


----------



## 94SupraTT

sdchrgrboy said:


> Where is all the posters who said this would never ever happen. Time to eat some crow


So true.


----------



## Adam1115

Can you crow eating people give it a rest?

The thing about opinions is that SOMEONE is going to be wrong... Some people thought TiVo might return, some people didn't. So what!


----------



## zalusky

It's all about mea culpa. I don't have a problem with saying I was wrong to be so absolutely sure.

Some people can't do that.


----------



## Rowsdower

Adam1115 said:


> Can you crow eating people give it a rest?
> 
> The thing about opinions is that SOMEONE is going to be wrong... Some people thought TiVo might return, some people didn't. So what!


There are those who simply expressed their opinion that TiVo would never return to DirecTV, and there are those who rudely belittled others for merely suggesting the possibility. It's the latter group that should be eating crow.


----------



## newsposter

will the new machine bring back the animation that my t60 had..i miss tivo 0!


----------



## psywzrd

I really hope DirecTV doesn't rape us on these new Tivo boxes. Considering some of us paid $1000 for our HR10-250s that are now rendered almost useless as far as HD programming, it's really not fair that we should have to shell out big bucks to switch back over to Tivo. It's almost as if DirecTV is using this solely as a way to generate revenue. Think about it - they phase out the HR10-250s, get everyone to switch over to their crappy DVR, and then come out with a brand-new, expensive HD Tivo that we have to buy if we want to go back to Tivo (and I definitely do).

I know this is a bit premature since we have no idea what the pricing structure will be but I will not be happy if they charge a lot for these boxes. Lock me in for another two years but subsidize the boxes for me. That's only fair, right?


----------



## madbeachcat

zalusky said:


> It's all about mea culpa. I don't have a problem with saying I was wrong to be so absolutely sure.
> 
> Some people can't do that.


Why should anyone care about someone else saying they were wrong? Be happy that people here would appear to be getting what they want.


----------



## madbeachcat

psywzrd said:


> I really hope DirecTV doesn't rape us on these new Tivo boxes. Considering some of us paid $1000 for our HR10-250s that are now rendered almost useless as far as HD programming, it's really not fair that we should have to shell out big bucks to switch back over to Tivo. It's almost as if DirecTV is using this solely as a way to generate revenue. Think about it - they phase out the HR10-250s, get everyone to switch over to their crappy DVR, and then come out with a brand-new, expensive HD Tivo that we have to buy if we want to go back to Tivo (and I definitely do).
> 
> I know this is a bit premature since we have no idea what the pricing structure will be but I will not be happy if they charge a lot for these boxes. Lock me in for another two years but subsidize the boxes for me. That's only fair, right?


I've been wrong on this all the way, but I do not think the unit is going to cost a lot more than the HR2X. But I do think there is going to be a $10 to $15 monthly charge. Nothing to back it up, just my feeling.


----------



## JRAllas

I meant to come on here to say something at the time, but a couple weeks ago I received a phone call from DirecTV. The woman began telling me about the HD service and that it would require me to change DVR's because I have the HR10-250. I told her I absolutely refuse to replace my HR10-250 with any of their new DVR's because all I've heard is complaints and that the reason I switched from Comcast to DirecTV was for the receiver with the built-in Tivo. She seemed very interested in my answer and thanked me for my response. She didn't even try to push their DVR's on me or anything like that. Now it all makes sense. My guess is they've been receiving the same comments from many of their customers.
I find it interesting that no where in the article can I find a reference to DirecTV trying to move away from Tivo and p!ssing off it's customers.


----------



## Rowsdower

JRAllas said:


> I meant to come on here to say something at the time, but a couple weeks ago I received a phone call from DirecTV. The woman began telling me about the HD service and that it would require me to change DVR's because I have the HR10-250. I told her I absolutely refuse to replace my HR10-250 with any of their new DVR's because all I've heard is complaints and that the reason I switched from Comcast to DirecTV was for the receiver with the built-in Tivo. She seemed very interested in my answer and thanked me for my response. She didn't even try to push their DVR's on me or anything like that. Now it all makes sense. My guess is they've been receiving the same comments from many of their customers.


When I received the call, I informed the representative that "we don't want to give up TiVo." "Oh, no one wants to give up TiVo," she replied (as though she'd heard this many times).

Yes, I'd like to think that customers like us played a role in this decision.


----------



## fasTLane

They gave up on me after the fourth call.


----------



## Thehypnotoad

While this is great news, I just hope that when the new DirecTivo unit finally appears they make it like the HR10-250 and include the off-air tuner(s) in the box and not as an add-on.


----------



## unixadm

madbeachcat said:


> I've been wrong on this all the way, but I do not think the unit is going to cost a lot more than the HR2X. But I do think there is going to be a $10 to $15 monthly charge. Nothing to back it up, just my feeling.


I'd be happy with that! I have grandfathered "lifetime" DVR service on my account, so they can't charge me for DVR service! (and they can't use the excuse that it is a better quality interface since the TiVo interface is what I had purchased the lifetime on initially)


----------



## Cudahy

I expect a 2 to 5 dollar extra charge. If Directv doesn't care which box we choose as long as we stay with Directv it shouldn't be more than 2 dollars.


----------



## Budget_HT

unixadm said:


> I'd be happy with that! I have grandfathered "lifetime" DVR service on my account, so they can't charge me for DVR service! (and they can't use the excuse that it is a better quality interface since the TiVo interface is what I had purchased the lifetime on initially)


What he said!!


----------



## pbmaxx

Well, I had been considering finally getting dtv hd dvr... Then I flipped off the 360 a moment ago (2:30 am CST) and back to tivo. I had a message... announcing the new TIVO HD and directv. Nothing to specific of course.... but now I will most likely wait and see what happens... Have used the dtv hd dvr at a family members house and just do not care for the interface... Plus the wife luv's tivo's enterface.... and if she's happy.......... 

Funny, I had not been here in a good while so though I'd see what was going on... Not shocked to see ya'll had been talking about it for a while now...


----------



## Citivas

unixadm said:


> I'd be happy with that! I have grandfathered "lifetime" DVR service on my account, so they can't charge me for DVR service! (and they can't use the excuse that it is a better quality interface since the TiVo interface is what I had purchased the lifetime on initially)


If you're sure, that's great, but I'm not counting on my lifetime DVR automatically applying to the new TiVo service. It seems like it would be easy to market is as some premium service and say our lifetime was for basic DVR service only. I'm not saying they will, only that I see no legal reason they couldn't. After all, they didn't even have to give us lifetime of the account since the TiVo lifetime service agreements were originally tied to the box and TiVo doesn't honor them still without the original boxes.


----------



## fasTLane

pbmaxx said:


> Well, I had been considering finally getting dtv hd dvr... Then I flipped off the 360 a moment ago (2:30 am CST) and back to tivo. I had a message... announcing the new TIVO HD and directv. Nothing to specific of course.... but now I will most likely wait and see what happens... Have used the dtv hd dvr at a family members house and just do not care for the interface... Plus the wife luv's tivo's enterface.... and if she's happy..........
> Funny, I had not been here in a good while so though I'd see what was going on... Not shocked to see ya'll had been talking about it for a while now...


Well, we just got the same message here and it *does* say what we already know... but, just seeing it written up there on the big screen gives you that warm feeling, like morning sun coming up all bright and toasty. 

Ain't it grand?


----------



## mp11

fasTLane said:


> but, just seeing it written up there on the big screen gives you that warm feeling, like morning sun coming up all bright and toasty.
> 
> Ain't it grand?


I associate it more like living inside a hurricane for 2 years then seeing sunlight breaking through.


----------



## DeWitt

Sadly it was too late for me. If they had extended the cut off on the MPEG2 channels I probably would have waited. 

So.... I bought a Tivo HD and switched to Verizon Fios. Long install process, but so far so good. It's funny, but someone asked me why I switched and I said, same reasons I left Comcast to go to Direct TV, better picture quality, HD, and integrated Tivo.


----------



## mp11

DeWitt said:


> Sadly it was too late for me. If they had extended the cut off on the MPEG2 channels I probably would have waited.
> 
> So.... I bought a Tivo HD and switched to Verizon Fios. Long install process, but so far so good. It's funny, but someone asked me why I switched and I said, same reasons I left Comcast to go to Direct TV, better picture quality, HD, and integrated Tivo.


With the TivoHD you may have better than what we'll get with the new DirecTivo as far as hardware. Hope I'm wrong.


----------



## mp11

psywzrd said:


> I really hope DirecTV doesn't rape us on these new Tivo boxes. Considering some of us paid $1000 for our HR10-250s that are now rendered almost useless as far as HD programming, it's really not fair that we should have to shell out big bucks to switch back over to Tivo.
> 
> 
> 
> I really cant see it being $1000. Hopefully they understand that these are different times since then. Look at our economy. Many people are cutting back on unecessary spending. (And yes, a Tivo would fall into that catagory). Lets hope they're wise enough to see the big picture.
Click to expand...


----------



## EricG

Won't the new HD DirecTiVos be leased just like all the other boxes?


----------



## dswallow

EricG said:


> Won't the new HD DirecTiVos be leased just like all the other boxes?


It's not like that means you won't still pay some absurd fee up front.


----------



## magnus

Some would argue that D* is a bigger and unecessary expense.



psywzrd said:


> Look at our economy. Many people are cutting back on unecessary spending. (And yes, a Tivo would fall into that catagory). Lets hope they're wise enough to see the big picture.


----------



## aarong50

Directv IF you are listening I will switch back to your service if you can get this right. DONT SCREW IT UP!!


----------



## bpratt

mp11 said:


> psywzrd said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really cant see it being $1000. Hopefully they understand that these are different times since then. Look at our economy. Many people are cutting back on unecessary spending. (And yes, a Tivo would fall into that catagory). Lets hope they're wise enough to see the big picture.
> 
> 
> 
> When the HR10-250 first came out it included a 250 Gig hard drive which were selling at the time for around $600. By the time the new D* Tivo comes out, a 750 Gig drive will probably be around $130.
Click to expand...


----------



## fasTLane

Good observation. Could be a factor. Just saw a 1 Tb Seagate on sale for that price!


----------



## dswallow

bpratt said:


> When the HR10-250 first came out it included a 250 Gig hard drive which were selling at the time for around $600. By the time the new D* Tivo comes out, a 750 Gig drive will probably be around $130.


Considering 1TB drives are in the $130/Qty1 range now, in a year, I'd certainly expect them, or larger, to be even cheaper, especially in any sort of quantity.


----------



## mhn2

When the HR10-250 came out, it was the only HD DVR option from DirecTV, so they could charge what they wanted. Times have changed, and there are many more choices. Hopefully, D* will price the new HD DirecTiVo more reasonably.


----------



## bigpuma

mhn2 said:


> When the HR10-250 came out, it was the only HD DVR option from DirecTV, so they could charge what they wanted. Times have changed, and there are many more choices. Hopefully, D* will price the new HD DirecTiVo more reasonably.


Not only that but it was the only HD TiVo and one of very few HD DVRs available.


----------



## MikeAndrews

DeWitt said:


> Sadly it was too late for me. If they had extended the cut off on the MPEG2 channels I probably would have waited.
> 
> So.... I bought a Tivo HD and switched to Verizon Fios. Long install process, but so far so good. It's funny, but someone asked me why I switched and I said, same reasons I left Comcast to go to Direct TV, better picture quality, HD, and integrated Tivo.


I'm gone from D* forever, too.

They hit me with a commitment I didn't agree to, which was the last straw. I activated an OWNED HR-10-250 and they put me on a two year commitment without telling me. They can DIAF.

Also I will guaran-d*-tee you that the new HD DTivo will not have Tivo2Go, MRV, net features, or anything else I have now.

I'm starting a campaign to cost DirecTV one sub for every dollar of the early termination fee. I have a real good start since I referred 18 new D* subs. I'm unreferring them Who's with me?


----------



## mp11

netringer said:


> They hit me with a commitment I didn't agree to, which was the last straw. I activated an OWNED HR-10-250 and they put me on a two year commitment without telling me. They can DIAF.
> 
> 
> 
> 1- They cant do that. The purpose of the 2 year commitment is to subsidize the cost of a receiver they're letting you have for little or nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I will guaran-d*-tee you that the new HD DTivo will not have Tivo2Go, MRV, net features, or anything else I have now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 2- You dont know that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting a campaign to cost DirecTV one sub for every dollar of the early termination fee. I have a real good start since I referred 18 new D* subs. I'm unreferring them Who's with me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 3- LOL
Click to expand...


----------



## MikeAndrews

mp11 said:


> netringer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1- They cant do that. The purpose of the 2 year commitment is to subsidize the cost of a receiver they're letting you have for little or nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah. You would that think as I did.
> 
> We'll see how they explain it to the states attorney.
> 
> TiVo2Go? MRV? Did they have that the previous DTivos? You know any other sat DVRs that can do it?
> 
> BTW, AT&T Uverse now has MRV.
Click to expand...


----------



## mp11

netringer said:


> mp11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TiVo2Go? MRV? Did they have that the previous DTivos? You know any other sat DVRs that can do it?
> 
> 
> 
> No. But I believe the new standalone Tivos do. People seem to think that the new DTivo will be based on the earlier DTivos.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## self

unixadm said:


> I have grandfathered "lifetime" DVR service on my account, so they can't charge me for DVR service! (and they can't use the excuse that it is a better quality interface since the TiVo interface is what I had purchased the lifetime on initially)


Better look in the contract you signed about that. Oh, yeah, there isn't one, is there?

My prediction is that it'll be an option on a DTV-produced DVR. You can pay the base fee (or nothing, for those of us with lifetime), or you can pay TiVo extra money for the right to have their UI and ads.


----------



## dswallow

self said:


> Better look in the contract you signed about that. Oh, yeah, there isn't one, is there?


Well, actually there is; the terms are part of DirecTV's regular service contracts and you can follow what they've done to clarify things regarding the meaning of lifetime TiVo service. We may not have physically "signed" it, but we have implicitly done so.

It's all moot until there s a real product and real information about service cost.

Some of the absurd claims I've read here and elsewhere about what "might" be the charges are just further panic by people who seem to want to do nothing but be panicked and scared and to do the same to others.


----------



## magnus

Who really knows what it will be based on? Do the Comcast Tivos have MRV and the other premium features that the SA Tivos have? If they do... then that might be a good indication of what's to come.



mp11 said:


> No. But I believe the new standalone Tivos do. People seem to think that the new DTivo will be based on the earlier DTivos.


----------



## JRAllas

I received a message on my SD DirecTivo receiver that the HD Tivo receiver would be released around mid 2009. No messages on my HR10-250, yet, but I'm looking forward to the new unit.


----------



## JRAllas

pretzelbag said:


> On the other hand, the technology industry is littered with devices announced or promised or half-developed but never shipped (see Wired's annual vaporware awards for a trip down memory lane), so until these new TiVos start rolling off the assembly line, nothing is certain.
> 
> -pretzelbag.


You got that right! I'm still waiting for the flying car!


----------



## annenoe

Well, I for one am happy to see this but will sit back and wait. If they can give me a tivo interface, a box that will record two channels at once, a box that will let me record my OTA, a box that has more than 50 SPs (I've had to delete SPs from my D* DVR), wireless access to my music and photos on my mac, and a box that allows easy space expansion, I think I'll be happy. MRV would be nice but I don't use it enough to be a purchase decision, nor do I use wishlists. But I'm not giving up my Hr10-250 until then. However, I may finally give up my 3rd SD tivo so I can HD on my 3rd TV (for now, I only get HD via live feed so no pause or record).


----------



## JRAllas

annenoe said:


> Well, I for one am happy to see this but will sit back and wait. But I'm not giving up my Hr10-250 until then.


I'm not making a move until the new HD DirecTivo is released. The majority of the HD content I watch/record is from local OTA channels, so gradually losing the MPG2 HD channels doesn't bother me. Some of SD satellite channels look pretty good so I have no picture quality issues unless I have the option of choosing between SD and HD broadcast of the same show, in which HD will always win, but I don't cry if I don't have that option. I'm very curious to see how good the new unit is and how easy it will be to switch over to the new unit and still keep the rest of my old SD receivers. I'm sure my dish will have to be replaced. I've waited long enough for DirecTV to realize very few are happy with their DVR's to finally work a deal out with Tivo. My wish seems to have come true. Now we'll see if they're capable of turning it into a nightmare.


----------



## Norm3

I'm thrilled because I hate Directvs HD box. I wanted to switch to Fios but now i'm ready to stay because of the return of tivo.


----------



## Semco

ok. Been a while. Any news on this front? I'm dying for HD service and I'm tired of my frankenstein directv tuner/ TiVo stand-alone boxes


----------



## shibby191

No, nothing new. About a month ago the Tivo CEO said it was delayed until next year. Tivo would give no comment at CES about it. A report hear from a user that they emailed and heard back from Tivo PR that they hoped to still have it out by end of this year. DirecTV (once again) made no mention of Tivo at all and no financial analysts asked about it at their recent conference call. 

Tivo has their conference call on March 2nd so if there is any new news to be had it will be there.

Honestly it's really not looking that good for a release any time soon with nothing in beta or testing yet and now nobody wants to even talk about it. But time will tell.


----------



## newsposter

where's earl when you need him


----------



## Adam1115

http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html


----------



## argicida

Thanks Adam. A box that does both sure would help me (and probably increase the chance of staying married.)


----------



## TerpEE93

Beware the 2 year commitment at DirecTV!!! I just broke my contract because the big dish kept losing its azimuth under gusty winds, and it cost me $250...*and* I have to return the receiver to DTV. I would think twice before going down that path again...


----------



## dswallow

TerpEE93 said:


> Beware the 2 year commitment at DirecTV!!! I just broke my contract because the big dish kept losing its azimuth under gusty winds, and it cost me $250...*and* I have to return the receiver to DTV. I would think twice before going down that path again...


If it kept moving, it wasn't installed correctly, gusty winds or not. DirecTV should've offered to send out an installer to secure it properly, and if they didn't you should have had cause to get out of the contract with no penalty (translated: DirecTV would've sent out the technician, they wouldn't have let you off with no penalty).

The receivers have been leased -- DirecTV changed to that model exclusively several years ago; you'd have to return them whenever you canceled even if you had fulfilled the contract period already.


----------



## DawnW

I think I would be on the phone asking for a tech to come out and would keep calling until they agreed not to charge me and to continue service if they can fix the problem.

I just had to call FOUR times today to get something done, but the 4th time I asked for a supervisor and he was able to do what I needed. It took a couple of hours and several, "so what, we don't care" attitudes, but it is now done.

Dawn



TerpEE93 said:


> Beware the 2 year commitment at DirecTV!!! I just broke my contract because the big dish kept losing its azimuth under gusty winds, and it cost me $250...*and* I have to return the receiver to DTV. I would think twice before going down that path again...


----------



## TerpEE93

So really, my point was just to go in with eyes open if you choose to do it. Consider that you can go one year at a time (or even month-to-month) with your TiVo and most video service providers, and you own the box, versus a 2 year commit and a lease with DTV... And even with the lease, there is significant outlay for the box ($200 for the HR20-700).


----------



## jcaudle

Directv is ok...but it can take a week or more to get a technician out. With cable, Cox has a tech out the same day or next day most of the time and wind/snow don't affect your signal. Its a no brainer to get FiOs over either satellite or cable...Tivo works with it....and blazing fast internet with bundled phone.


----------



## nrc

shibby191 said:


> A report hear from a user that they emailed and heard back from Tivo PR that they hoped to still have it out by end of this year.


That was me, and it was Derrick Nueman, Director of Investor Relations that answered the question.



> Honestly it's really not looking that good for a release any time soon with nothing in beta or testing yet and now nobody wants to even talk about it. But time will tell.


Right. I'm sure it won't be out before July, but I'm sure DTV will be happy to talk about it when it's available.


----------



## shibby191

nrc said:


> Right. I'm sure it won't be out before July, but I'm sure DTV will be happy to talk about it when it's available.


Yep. If it will be available for sale within 6 months I'd think Tivo will talk it up at their conference call. If they don't say anything then end of year would be the earliest but even that may be pushing it. Unless this new box is near bug free out of the gate with only a month of beta testing there just isn't enough time to get it out by end of this year.

I only mention the reality of things just because I'd hate for someone to commit to DirecTV thinking the new Tivo is "just around the corner" when in reality it's probably still a year out yet. We all may get a big surprise in 6-9 months but I'd hate to see people make a commitment on something that just frankly doesn't exist yet.


----------



## shibby191

jcaudle said:


> Directv is ok...but it can take a week or more to get a technician out. With cable, Cox has a tech out the same day or next day most of the time


Must be nice. Cable around here it will usually be a week to get someone out.



> and wind/snow don't affect your signal.


Wind and snow don't effect my signal, hasn't for 13 years. If you have a properly peaked and installed dish only the most heavy thunderstorm will knock out your signal. And even then it's back in 5-10 minutes. Last wind storm that knocked out cable, it was down for 2-3 weeks for many people as they strung new lines. Me, I was back in 10 minutes so long as I had power.  Several people got DirecTV or Dish after that one.


----------



## nrc

shibby191 said:


> I only mention the reality of things just because I'd hate for someone to commit to DirecTV thinking the new Tivo is "just around the corner" when in reality it's probably still a year out yet. We all may get a big surprise in 6-9 months but I'd hate to see people make a commitment on something that just frankly doesn't exist yet.


Yes, if anyone out there is thinking about subscribing to DTV today based on a TiVo box coming out at some point in the future, that would be foolish. Once they're committed DirecTV has no incentive to give them a deal on the new TiVo unit. They'll be much better off to wait until the unit comes out and make their best deal at that point.


----------



## NickIN

nrc said:


> Yes, if anyone out there is thinking about subscribing to DTV today based on a TiVo box coming out at some point in the future, that would be foolish. Once they're committed DirecTV has no incentive to give them a deal on the new TiVo unit. They'll be much better off to wait until the unit comes out and make their best deal at that point.


Not to mention that when they actually got the TiVo unit DirecTV would start the 2 years over anyway.


----------



## DawnW

WWYD?

I got my Directv this week. We got the one HD DVR upgrade/lease free with our signing on.

The standard box for our other HD TV will absolutely drive me nuts as I rarely if ever watch live TV and many times DH and I want to watch different shows.

Since the Tivo is looking like a possible 12 more months (or longer), should I just bite the bullet and get another HD DVR for now?

And if I get one, would you trust getting one on Craigslist or would you get it from Costco, paying a little more, but the assurance that if it doesn't work or goes wrong, it can be replaced? 

Thanks,

Dawn


----------



## shibby191

DawnW said:


> Since the Tivo is looking like a possible 12 more months (or longer), should I just bite the bullet and get another HD DVR for now?


I guess it depends on if you plan to stick with DirecTV. Me, I've been with them 13 years and not going anywhere so 2 year commitments don't bother me at all. Me, I've got 2 of the HD DVRs and just deactivated my last DirecTivo a couple months ago because it drove my wife crazy to use it after using the HR2x's for 2 years. When (if) the new DirecTivo comes out I probably won't give it much of a look unless it's got some must have feature way beyond the HR series, especially since it's going to be more expensive monthly and such.



> And if I get one, would you trust getting one on Craigslist or would you get it from Costco, paying a little more, but the assurance that if it doesn't work or goes wrong, it can be replaced?


Personally I would never get a receiver on Craigslist or eBay. But that's just me. But as to your worry about getting it replaced if something goes wrong, well, they are all leased units no matter where you get them with very few exceptions. Unless someone originally paid $500+ to actually buy it then they can't sell it anyway because they have to send it back to DirecTV since it's leased. If you plan to get something used get the serial number and call DirecTV and ask them to check it to see if it's free and clear. Hate for you to buy it and then they can't activate it since the person you bought it from needed to send it back and couldn't sell it.


----------



## DawnW

Thank you!

I think there is a peace of mind with getting it from Costco.

I am not going anywhere. We had Directv for over 8 years and only stopped when we were told we couldn't get HD. We went to cable and HATED every second of it, so we are most likely going to stick with Directv from now on again. I am hoping that the last several days' hassle with them is over and we can now return to our previous good service and broadcasting through them.

Dawn



shibby191 said:


> I guess it depends on if you plan to stick with DirecTV. Me, I've been with them 13 years and not going anywhere so 2 year commitments don't bother me at all. Me, I've got 2 of the HD DVRs and just deactivated my last DirecTivo a couple months ago because it drove my wife crazy to use it after using the HR2x's for 2 years. When (if) the new DirecTivo comes out I probably won't give it much of a look unless it's got some must have feature way beyond the HR series, especially since it's going to be more expensive monthly and such.
> 
> Personally I would never get a receiver on Craigslist or eBay. But that's just me. But as to your worry about getting it replaced if something goes wrong, well, they are all leased units no matter where you get them with very few exceptions. Unless someone originally paid $500+ to actually buy it then they can't sell it anyway because they have to send it back to DirecTV since it's leased. If you plan to get something used get the serial number and call DirecTV and ask them to check it to see if it's free and clear. Hate for you to buy it and then they can't activate it since the person you bought it from needed to send it back and couldn't sell it.


----------



## nrc

DawnW said:


> WWYD?


I would stick with cable since I'm fortunate to have service from a provider that outscored DTV in customer satisfaction at a lower cost. If I were in your position I'd assume that the new TiVo will be out in December 2009 and spend my money however that dictates.

At a minimum I'd wait until TiVo's March conference call to see if they have any updates.


----------



## bigpuma

nrc said:


> I would stick with cable since I'm fortunate to have service from a provider that outscored DTV in customer satisfaction at a lower cost. If I were in your position I'd assume that the new TiVo will be out in December 2009 and spend my money however that dictates.
> 
> At a minimum I'd wait until TiVo's March conference call to see if they have any updates.


Yeah I think a lot of these decisions come down to what your options are in a given area. If I had a better cable company or if FIOS was available in my area I might look into a TiVo HD. I am not sure if I would base that decision on customer satisfaction surveys though.


----------



## gregftlaud

i wonder if it will have an ota input


----------



## argicida

gregftlaud said:


> i wonder if it will have an ota input


Tivo would probably prefer that it does but it would hurt DirecTV so I'd bet "no."


----------



## CuriousMark

argicida said:


> Tivo would probably prefer that it does but it would hurt DirecTV so I'd bet "no."


As long as there are areas of the country where they do not provide locals they will need receivers/dvrs that can do OTA. Now congress is trying to push them to eliminate markets without locals, but that will take time, so I put the odds at 50/50 for the moment.


----------



## shibby191

argicida said:


> Tivo would probably prefer that it does but it would hurt DirecTV so I'd bet "no."


Why would it hurt DirecTV, that's just silly. DirecTV offers OTA now for all their HD DVRs so if the Tivo doesn't have OTA built in then I'm sure it will be made to work with the AM21 add-on.

If I had to bet I'd say it would have them built in simply because this is set to be a "premium" product and thus DirecTV isn't going to care much about keeping the cost to a bare minumum.


----------



## nrc

It's going to be based on a DTV DVR platform so unless DTV has plans for a new model with a built in tuner, I would bet that any OTA support will come via the add-on tuner.


----------



## MattDing

TiVo released a quarterly investor release today.

The highlight:


> Additionally, we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR. The new HD DVR will include popular TiVo broadband features, and will be immediately accessible to DIRECTV's entire national customer base on day-one of the launch. We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV and those subscribers are some of our most loyal customers. Now, as these customers look to upgrade from standard definition programming, they will have the option to choose the TiVo experience to help them truly get the most out of their high definition viewing experience.


----------



## codespy

MattDing said:


> TiVo released a quarterly investor release today.
> 
> The highlight:


Good news before I hit the sack. Thanks Matt.


----------



## litzdog911

MattDing said:


> TiVo released a quarterly investor release today.
> 
> The highlight:


Wish they had stated some commitment to a specific launch timeframe.


----------



## newsposter

so does this mean streaming netfix thru my new tivo?


----------



## NickIN

newsposter said:


> so does this mean streaming netfix thru my new tivo?


I'm thinking of all the great features that TiVo provides, this one will conveniently be missing. I don't think there is any way that DirecTV is going to allow Netflix to stream movies essentially for free to their boxes while they are trying to charge $5+ each for the OnDemand movies.


----------



## HiDefGator

NickIN said:


> I'm thinking of all the great features that TiVo provides, this one will conveniently be missing. I don't think there is any way that DirecTV is going to allow Netflix to stream movies essentially for free to their boxes while they are trying to charge $5+ each for the OnDemand movies.


I don't see them allowing the DirecTivo's to have netflix either. We'll find out when the beta starts I guess.


----------



## shibby191

I can do Netflix on the DirecTV DVRs anyway so I could see it either way on the DirecTivo's.


----------



## vphares

shibby191 said:


> I can do Netflix on the DirecTV DVRs anyway so I could see it either way on the DirecTivo's.


How are you doing Netflix streaming on a DirecTV DVR?


----------



## stevel

vphares said:


> How are you doing Netflix streaming on a DirecTV DVR?


PlayOn Hulu and YouTube too.


----------



## newsposter

NickIN said:


> I'm thinking of all the great features that TiVo provides, this one will conveniently be missing. I don't think there is any way that DirecTV is going to allow Netflix to stream movies essentially for free to their boxes while they are trying to charge $5+ each for the OnDemand movies.


i guess i'll have to keep fooling around with tversity then. Got video from the PC working except some issues with xvid.


----------



## sjberra

NickIN said:


> I'm thinking of all the great features that TiVo provides, this one will conveniently be missing. I don't think there is any way that DirecTV is going to allow Netflix to stream movies essentially for free to their boxes while they are trying to charge $5+ each for the OnDemand movies.


dont you mean PPV movies? have not been charged to any movie from VOD on the channels that I already recieve. besides with caps being put in place this is going to be an interesting time. Have already disconnected the internet connection from all HR2X boxes and my Media Centers systems.


----------



## NickIN

sjberra said:


> dont you mean PPV movies? have not been charged to any movie from VOD on the channels that I already recieve. besides with caps being put in place this is going to be an interesting time. Have already disconnected the internet connection from all HR2X boxes and my Media Centers systems.


You're right. I did mean PPV, but you can download PPV movies via VOD which puts it pretty much in direct competition with streaming from Netflix. I just don't see DirecTV voluntarily opening up their systems to competitors.


----------



## shibby191

On Tivo's conference call today they didn't mention the new DirecTivo at all and only mentioned DirecTV once. So no new info.


----------



## fasTLane

shibby191 said:


> On Tivo's conference call today they didn't mention the new DirecTivo at all and only mentioned DirecTV once. So no new info.


_"Additionally, we continue to work on our new *Direct TV HD DVR*. The new *HD DVR* will include many popular Tivo broadband features and will be immediately accessible to Direct TV's entire national customer base on day one of the launch. We have a very successful history with Direct TV and those subscribers are some of our most loyal customers..." - Thomas Rogers

"And fourth, we will continue to see declines in our Direct TV subscription revenue until our new *HD Tivo* is offered by Direct TV." - Anna Brunelle _


----------



## sjberra

fasTLane said:


> _"Additionally, we continue to work on our new *Direct TV HD DVR*. The new *HD DVR* will include many popular Tivo broadband features and will be immediately accessible to Direct TV's entire national customer base on day one of the launch. We have a very successful history with Direct TV and those subscribers are some of our most loyal customers..." - Thomas Rogers
> 
> "And fourth, we will continue to see declines in our Direct TV subscription revenue until our new *HD Tivo* is offered by Direct TV." - Anna Brunelle _


and what point are you trying to make? It appears that you just verified what was said - they mentioned it once by name, no meat just marketing hype - aka blue smoke and mirrors. no indication of what year the "day one of launch" will be


----------



## fasTLane

They didn't mention the new DirecTivo at all?


----------



## stevel

fasTLane said:


> They didn't mention the new DirecTivo at all?


They did and it's the subject of the last half-dozen or so replies here. Admittedly they didn't say much.


----------



## Cutty

shibby191 said:


> On Tivo's conference call today they didn't mention the new DirecTivo at all and only mentioned DirecTV once. So no new info.


It was an earnings conference call to analysts...You shouldn't expect any type of specific info.

By mentioning it specifically, however, it's safe to say that it's soon. The big takeaway that I noticed was the statement _"will be immediately accessible to Direct TV's entire national customer base on day one of the launch."_ Sounds like they'll be adopting an Apple Computer type strategy where once a new product is announced, it's fully available...Unlike many other companies who announce and rollout way ahead of any reasonable inventory.


----------



## shibby191

Was not referring to the earnings conference on Monday which was already covered (and while no specifics given the relationship with DirecTV was mentioned a couple times as ramping up by years end, whatever that means). 

This was the Deutsche Bank 2009 Media and Telecom Conference on Tuesday (which is why I said "today").

You guys need to keep up.


----------



## fasTLane

Would love to be a fly on that wall. Got a link?  j/k


----------



## shibby191

fasTLane said:


> Would love to be a fly on that wall. Got a link?  j/k


My post for "today" was yesterday. The conference call was Tuesday.

Anyway, for those interested there are lots of these thru the year. Just check the investor pages of your favorite companies. For example at the Deutsche Bank conference yesterday DirecTV presented from 12:30 to 1:30 and Tivo presented from 3:00 to 3:30.

http://investor.tivo.com
http://www.directv.com/investor


----------



## bigpuma

Cutty said:


> By mentioning it specifically, however, it's safe to say that it's soon. The big takeaway that I noticed was the statement _"will be immediately accessible to Direct TV's entire national customer base on day one of the launch."_ Sounds like they'll be adopting an Apple Computer type strategy where once a new product is announced, it's fully available...


 It was announced months ago.


----------



## newsposter

so does fully available mean software download for sure?


----------



## NickIN

newsposter said:


> so does fully available mean software download for sure?


Part of me sure hopes not, but this made it sound like it. I'm sure the HR2* is fully capable of running TiVo software. But from an aesthetics standpoint, TiVo boxes have always looked better in an equipment rack than anything DirecTV has put out.


----------



## fasTLane

I am betting the in house box is not able to offer the Tivo dual live tuner function.


----------



## sjberra

fasTLane said:


> I am betting the in house box is not able to offer the Tivo dual live tuner function.


why not? Would be more willing to be it is a software function rather then hardware, aka it is just how the code for handling the two buffers is setup. Unless you have a link to specifications that show different


----------



## newsposter

sjberra said:


> why not? Would be more willing to be it is a software function rather then hardware, aka it is just how the code for handling the two buffers is setup. Unless you have a link to specifications that show different


i had no idea there were links anywhere regarding any definite specs 

ie just because there's no link to something doesnt mean it's not true...if i tell you my kitchen is yellow, will you believe me without a link


----------



## bigpuma

newsposter said:


> so does fully available mean software download for sure?


Wouldn't that preclude people who don't have DVRs though. I figured he meant when it becomes available anyone with DirecTV will be able to get it unlike the Comcast TiVo which was rolled out in New England first.


----------



## tivoknucklehead

stevel said:


> PlayOn Hulu and YouTube too.


their website says nothing about Directv DVR support. How does this work?


----------



## sjberra

newsposter said:


> i had no idea there were links anywhere regarding any definite specs
> 
> ie just because there's no link to something doesnt mean it's not true...if i tell you my kitchen is yellow, will you believe me without a link


Nope

Validation is the life blood of accuracy


----------



## sjberra

bigpuma said:


> Wouldn't that preclude people who don't have DVRs though. I figured he meant when it becomes available anyone with DirecTV will be able to get it unlike the Comcast TiVo which was rolled out in New England first.


why?, if it becomes available order it, no different then a person wanting to upgrade their reciever to a dvr now.


----------



## bigpuma

tivoknucklehead said:


> their website says nothing about Directv DVR support. How does this work?


It is very easy. Network you DVR. Download and install Playon. Go to the Pictures music, etc. menu on DVR. Hulu, Netflix, CBS etc. will show up in menus. At least that is how it worked for me.


----------



## bigpuma

sjberra said:


> why?, if it becomes available order it, no different then a person wanting to upgrade their reciever to a dvr now.


Don't get me wrong I am not saying it won't be a download. I just don't think that is what Tom Rodgers was referring to when he said it would be available to everyone at launch. I don't think his statement indicates either download or new hardware.


----------



## HiDefGator

bigpuma said:


> Don't get me wrong I am not saying it won't be a download. I just don't think that is what Tom Rodgers was referring to when he said it would be available to everyone at launch. I don't think his statement indicates either download or new hardware.


I agree with you. I believe Rogers was refering to it being available to the entire country at once when it becomes available. This is in contrast to Comcast and Cox that are slowly rolling out area by area.

I don't believe it will be a download option. If that were the case I think someone would have said that clearly. On the other hand I do believe it will be on the standard DVR directv is selling at the time, but preconfigured at the factory. I don't think there will be custom hardware just for the Tivo option.


----------



## stevel

tivoknucklehead said:


> their website says nothing about Directv DVR support. How does this work?


It does. See http://www.themediamall.com/faq#devices


----------



## tivoknucklehead

bigpuma said:


> It is very easy. Network you DVR. Download and install Playon. Go to the Pictures music, etc. menu on DVR. Hulu, Netflix, CBS etc. will show up in menus. At least that is how it worked for me.


I'll be damned, it works great. This is awesome


----------



## shibby191

VERY large thread on DBSTalk discussing the use of PlayOn: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=146003


----------



## nrc

newsposter said:


> so does fully available mean software download for sure?


I would bet that it won't be just a download. The information from the agreement that appeared in TiVo's third quarter SEC filing suggests that one of DirecTV's DVRs (existing or new) will be packaged and leased as a DirecTV with TiVo DVR. While the actual statement of work could include a provision for such a download, I don't see much motivation for DirecTV to pay for such a development. They would rather have you pay a fee to get a new DVR and extend your commitment.

I do think it's interesting the Rogers mentioned DTV customers getting TiVo's broadband features. It will be interesting to see just which ones DTV permits.


----------



## fasTLane

sjberra said:


> why not? Would be more willing to be it is a software function rather then hardware, aka it is just how the code for handling the two buffers is setup. Unless you have a link to specifications that show different


This forum link could offer a clue as to why not. I don't know. You decide. 

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365999


----------



## joed32

nrc said:


> I would bet that it won't be just a download. The information from the agreement that appeared in TiVo's third quarter SEC filing suggests that one of DirecTV's DVRs (existing or new) will be packaged and leased as a DirecTV with TiVo DVR. While the actual statement of work could include a provision for such a download, I don't see much motivation for DirecTV to pay for such a development. They would rather have you pay a fee to get a new DVR and extend your commitment.
> 
> I do think it's interesting the Rogers mentioned DTV customers getting TiVo's broadband features. It will be interesting to see just which ones DTV permits.


I agree with you. That will be easier than what they went through with Comcast.


----------



## CuriousMark

nrc said:


> I would bet that it won't be just a download. The information from the agreement that appeared in TiVo's third quarter SEC filing suggests that one of DirecTV's DVRs (existing or new) will be packaged and leased as a DirecTV with TiVo DVR.


Just to confirm your bet, I posted this in the other thread. Rogers went on record saying that it was not a download.


----------



## shibby191

The clues to me point to a new DirecTV DVR that can either have it's DVR software on it or the Tivo software on it. So it will be a "download" in that respect, but only on the new receiver. I don't think the Tivo software will be available for download on the current HR20/21/22/23 platform. So perhaps an "HR30" will be made available and will have the option.


----------



## johncoyne

Yea, Direct TV finally listened because many of us (me included) dropped them like a lead balloon after they decided to end their relationship with TIVO and try and force us to buy their DVR in order to get any new HD channels....well, good luck to them....I switched to Verizon cable and purchased two HD Tivos and am very happy with the service. I would have been happy to remain a Direct TV customer (they still call and want me back, as late as yesterday!) and I tell them the reason I left..."no Tivo, no me".
I still have my Direct TV equipment...any buyers???? Long live Tivo!
John, NY


----------



## HiDefGator

johncoyne said:


> Yea, Direct TV finally listened because many of us (me included) dropped them like a lead balloon after they decided to end their relationship with TIVO ...


I'm more inclined to believe they signed a new deal with Tivo because they needed to keep around a million SD Tivo boxes active and they didn't want to be sued for possible IP infringement. If there was a mass exodus of subscribers over them dropping Tivo you certainly couldn't see it in their reported subscriber counts or churn rate.


----------



## classicsat

I'm more with Johncoyne. People have been dumping DirecTV for a Series 3/TiVoHD and cable/FIOS/OTA, because having TiVo is more important than the service it is connected to. DirecTV wants to get TiVo back to get the TiVo numbers back, or keep further customers from leaving DirecTV. 

IP is not a valid reason. Their last contract included no-sue language, plus since they own the Replay-TV IP, they can just as easily use that without risk of suits from TiVo.


----------



## HiDefGator

classicsat said:


> I'm more with Johncoyne. People have been dumping DirecTV for a Series 3/TiVoHD and cable/FIOS/OTA, because having TiVo is more important than the service it is connected to.


Yet with all the dumping, Tivo's subscriber counts are dropping. There are Tivo faithful, but they are not the majority. On the other hand Directv has been signing up 100's of thousands of new HD subscribers each quarter.


----------



## shibby191

classicsat said:


> I'm more with Johncoyne. People have been dumping DirecTV for a Series 3/TiVoHD and cable/FIOS/OTA, because having TiVo is more important than the service it is connected to. DirecTV wants to get TiVo back to get the TiVo numbers back, or keep further customers from leaving DirecTV.
> 
> IP is not a valid reason. Their last contract included no-sue language, plus since they own the Replay-TV IP, they can just as easily use that without risk of suits from TiVo.


Let's step into reality. People have not been dumping DirecTV in droves. Their sub numbers are up by record numbers and their churn is down by record numbers. Sure, some people have left but most have not. Or if a lot did, more actually signed up then continuing record net growth which frankly is all that matters.

Also nearly 50% of all their subscribers have a DVR now, very few of them Tivo based.

The main basic reason for the new contract is twofold:
1) The old one was expiring and support needed to continue for the few DirecTivo's left. Thus a renewal of the support contract.
2) The new contract renewed the no sue clause that Tivo can't sue DirecTV and also added that DirecTV can't sue Tivo (which became more a concern now that DirecTV owns Replay's patents).

That's pretty much it. They also agreed that DirecTV will pay more in fees to Tivo and DirecTV finally said "ok, sure, build a new box and we'll pass on the fees to the customer" (a common issue with this before was that Tivo wanted more but DirecTV was unwilling to pass the cost on) thus why the new box will cost more to have, as a "premium" product. It's a no lose situation for DirecTV. If the new Tivo box fails, no problem, most of their subs don't use a Tivo box anyway and don't care. If it's a success then they make more money. For Tivo it's a win-lose. Win if it's a success and bad news if it's a failure.


----------



## bigpuma

classicsat said:


> I'm more with Johncoyne. People have been dumping DirecTV for a Series 3/TiVoHD and cable/FIOS/OTA, because having TiVo is more important than the service it is connected to. DirecTV wants to get TiVo back to get the TiVo numbers back, or keep further customers from leaving DirecTV.
> 
> IP is not a valid reason. Their last contract included no-sue language, plus since they own the Replay-TV IP, they can just as easily use that without risk of suits from TiVo.


If this is true why did churn go down after DirecTV dropped TiVo? Sure it is true they changed their strategy to go after lower risk subscribers but if people were dropping TiVo in droves and you and Johncoyne are suggesting wouldn't you expect the churn to at least go up a little.


----------



## sluciani

shibby191 said:


> Let's step into reality. People have not been dumping DirecTV in droves. Their sub numbers are up by record numbers and their churn is down by record numbers. Sure, some people have left but most have not. Or if a lot did, more actually signed up then continuing record net growth which frankly is all that matters.
> 
> Also nearly 50% of all their subscribers have a DVR now, very few of them Tivo based.
> 
> The main basic reason for the new contract is twofold:
> 1) The old one was expiring and support needed to continue for the few DirecTivo's left. Thus a renewal of the support contract.
> 2) The new contract renewed the no sue clause that Tivo can't sue DirecTV and also added that DirecTV can't sue Tivo (which became more a concern now that DirecTV *[owns the Replay patents.]*
> 
> That's pretty much it. They also agreed that DirecTV will pay more in fees to Tivo and DirecTV finally said "ok, sure, build a new box and we'll pass on the fees to the customer" (a common issue with this before was that Tivo wanted more but DirecTV was unwilling to pass the cost on) thus why the new box will cost more to have, as a "premium" product. It's a no lose situation for DirecTV. If the new Tivo box fails, no problem, most of their subs don't use a Tivo box anyway and don't care. If it's a success then they make more money. For Tivo it's a win-lose. Win if it's a success and bad news if it's a failure.


Ding! Ding! Ding! Couldn't agree more with your facts and assessment of the deal. No lose for DirecTV and very important to TiVo. In 2006, DirecTV subs represented 2/3 of all TiVo subscribers. /steve


----------



## HiDefGator

the sad part is that by the time they actually start offering the new DTivo there will be less than a million old DTivo's left active to upgrade. And many of the ones left already have an HR20 sitting next to them.


----------



## nrc

shibby191 said:


> Let's step into reality. People have not been dumping DirecTV in droves. Their sub numbers are up by record numbers and their churn is down by record numbers. Sure, some people have left but most have not. Or if a lot did, more actually signed up then continuing record net growth which frankly is all that matters.


DirecTV's disconnects are also at record numbers. Yes, DirecTV has avoided any obvious impact from dropping TiVo through a combination of a compelling HDTV offering, Sunday Ticket exclusivity, and tightened credit policies. But they can't count on record gross adds from those factors for much longer. DirecTV has a reason associated with each of those 3 million disconnects and only they know how many of them say, "Your DVR sucks."



> Also nearly 50% of all their subscribers have a DVR now, very few of them Tivo based.
> 
> The main basic reason for the new contract is twofold:
> 1) The old one was expiring and support needed to continue for the few DirecTivo's left. Thus a renewal of the support contract.


So there are "very few" TiVos left, but they needed to agree to pay TiVo to develop new HD DVR software and pay them substantially higher fees in order to maintain support for those "very few" TiVos? That makes sense. Strike a more expensive deal that will leave you in the exact same position the next time around.



> 2) The new contract renewed the no sue clause that Tivo can't sue DirecTV and also added that DirecTV can't sue Tivo (which became more a concern now that DirecTV owns Replay's patents).


The latter part is not true. The clause for DirecTV not to sue has been in place since at least the 7th restatement of the agreement in 2006.

http://www.secinfo.com/d14D5a.v3Skd.d.htm



> "7.5. DIRECTV Covenant
> 
> (a) Covenant. During the Term (and thereafter as set forth in Section 7.5(b)), DIRECTV covenants that neither DIRECTV, Group, nor any of the other DIRECTV Subsidiaries shall assert against TiVo, TiVo's Subsidiaries, [*] any claim of infringement of any patent or patent application (including any patent(s) which may issue therefrom) owned or controlled by DIRECTV, Group, or any of the other DIRECTV Subsidiaries during the Term (collectively, "DIRECTV Patents") by any TiVo Covered System...


----------



## sjberra

I am confused here - if Directv's churn rate is down in record numbers how can they be losing subscribers in record numbers?

Was under the inpression that churn and disconnect is the same thing


----------



## Hersheytx

No way did Directv loose 3 million subscribers last year. 
Heck Dish got hammered because they lost 100K last quarter.
If Directv would have losted that many they would have seen their stock drop down to the level of EchoStar. (pennies a share).

I am a devout TIVO fan. I still have an HDTIVO and SD TIVO hooked up on my account. But I also have three HD DVRs (HR20,21,22) on my account.
And they are not that bad. They do the job and record what I want to watch.

Now would I buy the new HD TIVO coming out this year? YOU BET YA!
WIll I replace everything I have with TIVOs. Probably not. I like a lot of stuff Directv has done. THat is why I became a customer in November of 94.

I remember Cable. I remember the promises. I remember the outages. I remember the bad picture. I remember the customer service from hell. I remember how happy Directv has made my television viewing.
Every year they lead in giving me more for my money. HD programming. More channels. More HD DVR functions. VOD. Heck cable never even cared about me until I left. 

I have friends that I got hooked on TIVO and Directv. We all feel that a new TIVO HD Box will sell. But none of us have jumped ship. Sure we miss the Tivo interface. I can still use a Tivo remote in the dark with one hand. Still have a problem with the Directv HD remote. Damn those colored buttons!!!

But lets be honest. It was Directv that started with TIVO. They were the leaders of the pack. Always trying to make things better. So give it a rest on all this hype that we are jumping ship.
If you want to jump, jump. I for one will stick with Directv and get my new HD TIVO later this year.


----------



## dswallow

sjberra said:


> I am confused here - if Directv's churn rate is down in record numbers how can they be losing subscribers in record numbers?
> 
> Was under the inpression that churn and disconnect is the same thing


From DirecTV 10-K filings:

*Average Monthly Subscriber Churn.* Average monthly subscriber churn represents the number of subscribers whose service is disconnected, expressed as a percentage of the average total number of subscribers. We calculate average monthly subscriber churn by dividing the average monthly number of disconnected subscribers for the period (total subscribers disconnected, net of reconnects, during the period divided by the number of months in the period) by average subscribers for the period.

As I understand that, it means...

On 11/6/2008 DirecTV reported a US monthly churn rate of 1.64% and 17,320,000 for the period ending 9/30/2008. That's 3,408,576 subscriptions churning over the course of a single year; i.e., 3,408,576 lost subscriptions and had to be replaced by new subscriptions.


----------



## shibby191

People like to pick out numbers like "x million disconnects" and so forth but let's again look at reality.

Every single one of these business's has 4 numbers:

Disconnects
Gross adds (how many total were added)
Net add/loss of subs (the difference between the two)
Churn (&#37; of subs leaving)

The only number that matters in the end is the Net adds/loss

So to pull numbers out of thin air:
3 million leave
4 million join (gross adds)
This means you had 1 million Net adds.

Churn is the % of your total that left (in simple terms).

So the only numbers that matter to these companies are the net additions and the churn.
Net additions are going really good for DirecTV and have for a few years.
Churn is way down and has been in good shape for a year or two now.

This means that *less* subscribers are leaving as a % of their total and they are adding more new subs.

This is all positive.

I do love how some people always pull out the number that left and concentrate on that one. All these companies have hundreds of thousands if not millions that leave every year. DirecTV has lost millions of subs every year for over a decade. No biggy. This number as a total really doesn't matter. What matters is what % of the total is that number (churn) and how many new people did they get to replace. In these cases DirecTV, unlike Dish and a lot of cable companies, are in great shape. The only ones in good shape in this right now is FIOS, Uverse and DirecTV. Everyone else has negative adds and high churn.

Also very interesting is the 4th quarter, the first quarter where the initial HR20 wave are off commitment had the lowest churn in many years and the highest net adds in a few years as well.

So lets live in reality, not some fantasy land. 

But hey, believe whatever you want, it's all good.


----------



## HiDefGator

dswallow said:


> On 11/6/2008 DirecTV reported a US monthly churn rate of 1.64% and 17,320,000 for the period ending 9/30/2008. That's 3,408,576 subscriptions churning over the course of a single year; i.e., 3,408,576 lost subscriptions and had to be replaced by new subscriptions.


and roughly 500K of those "turn off's" each year were SD Tivo's which is a big number. But we don't know what the natural turn off rate would have been if they were still offering Tivo the entire time. People die, hard drives die, power surges, trees block the line of site, cable makes them a triple play deal, etc.

If they were that concerned about it they sure waited one heck of a long time to get concerned enough to sign a new deal.


----------



## HiDefGator

nrc said:


> So there are "very few" TiVos left, but they needed to agree to pay TiVo to develop new HD DVR software and pay them substantially higher fees in order to maintain support for those "very few" TiVos? That makes sense. Strike a more expensive deal that will leave you in the exact same position the next time around.


But it isn't more expensive for Directv. They will only be paying Tivo this time around for the customers that agree to pay extra for Tivo. That will most likely be in the single digits pecentage wise. And all of the extra payment will come straight from the customers.


----------



## shibby191

HiDefGator said:


> If they were that concerned about it they sure waited one heck of a long time to get concerned enough to sign a new deal.


Exactly, they aren't that concerned about it. The new deal is a no lose situation for DirecTV which probably wasn't the case before according to many reports. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain in this new deal. If Tivo doesn't come thru they haven't lost anything other then some investment money and even that probably isn't all that much since the new box will most likely run either Tivo or DirecTV software, you take your pick, pay more if you want Tivo. Thus there isn't any new hardware that DirecTV is developing beyond what they already were for their own platform.


----------



## sluciani

NRC said:


> DirecTV's disconnects are also at record numbers. Yes, DirecTV has avoided any obvious impact from dropping TiVo through a combination of a compelling HDTV offering, Sunday Ticket exclusivity, and tightened credit policies. But they can't count on record gross adds from those factors for much longer. DirecTV has a reason associated with each of those 3 million disconnects and only they know how many of them say, "Your DVR sucks."


The facts tell a different story. Latest numbers reported by DirecTV in February show that churn dropped from 1.64% to 1.47% in the 4th quarter, at the same time they added more US subs (301,000) than they had in 3 years, when the DirecTiVo was their only HD DVR. And bear in mind that unlike 3 years ago, more than 50% of all subscribers now own DVR's.

In 2006, DirecTV's 2,873,000 TiVo subscribers accounted for 2/3 of all TiVo subs, including "lifetimes". Today, by conservative estimates, DirecTV has already shipped over 6,000,000 HR2x DVR's. With churn at a 9 year low, DirecTV's customer satisfaction is as good as it's been at any time DirecTiVo's were the only game in town, so TiVo needs to get this new box out the door ASAP before the window of opportunity closes any more.

I say this because as a TiVo early adopter and user from 1999-2007, IMO, the HR2x is now good enough that once a customer becomes accustomed to using it, the likelihood of that customer swapping it for a DirecTiVo will be extremely low. /steve


----------



## sluciani

shibby191 said:


> Exactly, they aren't that concerned about it. The new deal is a no lose situation for DirecTV which probably wasn't the case before according to many reports. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain in this new deal. If Tivo doesn't come thru they haven't lost anything other then some investment money and even that probably isn't all that much since the new box will most likely run either Tivo or DirecTV software, you take your pick, pay more if you want Tivo. Thus there isn't any new hardware that DirecTV is developing beyond what they already were for their own platform.


Exactly right. They're making the boxes anyway, so no extra $$$ there. And even with the minimum payouts if #'s aren't met, I'm guessing that is not going to be much more than the SAC $$$ they spend to acquire non-TiVo customers.

It's less about retention, IMO, because the # of TiVo users who left because their HR10 can't pick up the MPEG-4 channels is probably no more than a rounding error, given the attractive equipment deals they offered. /steve


----------



## Lowcarb

sluciani said:


> It's less about retention, IMO, because the # of TiVo users who left because their HR10 can't pick up the MPEG-4 channels is probably no more than a rounding error, given the attractive equipment deals they offered. /steve


I didn't leave but I haven't upgraded to HD yet either. 
Originally line of site to 101W was my issue. Now the new sats make that a minor issue.

I'm holding out for a HD -DVR w/Tivo. I refuse to go to a DirecTV dvr w/o it.

If DirecTV can not deliver on this then I most likely will become a "retention statistic" and go to package deal with Optimum Cable who already provides my internet on cable. Optimum will be happy. DirecTV and Frontier will each lose a customer. 
If I have to have a dumb dvr it can be Optimum's as easily as DirecTV's and with Optimum I'd have the option of using Stand Alone Tivo.


----------



## sluciani

Lowcarb said:


> I didn't leave but I haven't upgraded to HD yet either.
> Originally line of site to 101W was my issue. Now the new sats make that a minor issue.
> 
> I'm holding out for a HD -DVR w/Tivo. I refuse to go to a DirecTV dvr w/o it.
> 
> If DirecTV can not deliver on this then I most likely will become a "retention statistic" and go to package deal with Optimum Cable who already provides my internet on cable. Optimum will be happy. DirecTV and Frontier will each lose a customer.
> If I have to have a dumb dvr it can be Optimum's as easily as DirecTV's and with Optimum I'd have the option of using Stand Alone Tivo.


I give you credit for holding out this long. We're all in Westchester county and my daughter uses an Optimum DVR and my son a FiOS DVR, so I'm very familiar with both. Given a choice between either of those and the HR2x, it's really no contest in my mind. The HR2x is much more feature rich than the Optimum box, especially in the area of search and autorecord (Wish List) capability, and the FiOS DVR only offers 20 hours of HD storage, which wouldn't hold a week of my recordings and my wife's.

I'm curious why a TiVo fan like you would leave for another DVR, assuming channel selection and pricing were comparable? I would understand if you left for a cableco that allowed you to use a TiVoHD or TiVoHD XL, but not simply to steer clear of the HR2x platform.

I use DirecTV, Vonage and FiOS internet, and I pay $167/month for all three. That includes 6 DVR's and one HD box. With a single DVR, it would cost me $137/month, including all taxes and fees. /steve


----------



## fasTLane

Tivo is my preference too. I still use the Direct crippled version with fewer hd channels but hey, the OTA hd will hold me out until the new wonderbox is delivered.


----------



## HiDefGator

fasTLane said:


> Tivo is my preference too. I still use the Direct crippled version with fewer hd channels but hey, the OTA hd will hold me out until the new wonderbox is delivered.


You guys impress me with your Tivo loyalty. I had a standalone series one, then SD Dtivo. I bought one of the first HR10's to come off the line. And I'll be the first to admit the HR20 is no Tivo. But giving up the dozens of HD channels that I get today with the HR20 to wait on a real Tivo is something I couldn't do.


----------



## Lowcarb

sluciani said:


> I'm curious why a TiVo fan like you would leave for another DVR, assuming channel selection and pricing were comparable? I would understand if you left for a cableco that allowed you to use a TiVoHD or TiVoHD XL, but not simply to steer clear of the HR2x platform.
> 
> I use DirecTV, Vonage and FiOS internet, and I pay $167/month for all three. That includes 6 DVR's and one HD box. With a single DVR, it would cost me $137/month, including all taxes and fees. /steve


I probably won't leave for a cableco dvr since that won't be any better, and as you suggest could be worse, than the directv dvr.
If I leave it will be for cableco + Tivo

I'm in the country and do not have the option of service from a major teleco.

BTW I'm equivalently paying :
$62 DirecTV (Total Choice, standard def + 2 DVRs) 
$50 OptimumOnline internet
$25 Frontier Communications, local teleco service.
------
$137

I'm paying the same as you and I don't have HD!


----------



## sluciani

fasTLane said:


> Tivo is my preference too. I still use the Direct crippled version with fewer hd channels but hey, the OTA hd will hold me out until the new wonderbox is delivered.


If it wasn't for the fact that I needed to switch to get the Yankee games in HD (MPEG-4 only) back in 2007, I'd probably have hung onto my four HR10's as well. At the time, my only alternative was switching to Optimum cable and buying four TiVo series 3's at about $600 each, plus $50+/month for TiVo listings on top of Cablevision's fees. Would have cost me a small fortune vs. my DirecTV charges at the time. /steve


----------



## sluciani

Lowcarb said:


> BTW I'm equivalently paying :
> $62 DirecTV (Total Choice, standard def + 2 DVRs)
> $50 OptimumOnline internet
> $25 Frontier Communications, local teleco service.
> ------
> $137
> 
> I'm paying the same as you and I don't have HD!


You're paying $10 more for Internet than me. I'm grandfathered in to a $40/month Verizon FiOS deal from 2006. That $10 covers my HD access fee. My $137 is for one box, you've got two, but I also have the D* $6/month protection plan.

The real difference is on the plan and the 6 other boxes. I pay $30/month for 5 more DVR's and one standard HD box. With Cablevision, that would cost almost $60/month. And their equivalent of Total Choice is $20/month more. That's about $600 a year more if I switch, and still no TiVo.

Even more expensive alternative is to spend $200 up front each for TiVoHD's and pay $15 month each ($13 to TiVo plus $2 cablecard). Definitely not worth it for me, now that I'm happy with the HR2x's. /steve


----------



## sjberra

HiDefGator said:


> and roughly 500K of those "turn off's" each year were SD Tivo's which is a big number. But we don't know what the natural turn off rate would have been if they were still offering Tivo the entire time. People die, hard drives die, power surges, trees block the line of site, cable makes them a triple play deal, etc.
> 
> If they were that concerned about it they sure waited one heck of a long time to get concerned enough to sign a new deal.


Is there a missing one also - how many of the turn-offs where conversion to HD units, personally in that catagory, upgraded my kids Phillips to a HR2X HD unit. So a SD tivo was turned off


----------



## klm

I was told if you try to close out your DirecTV account for issues with your old TiVo DVR they put you on a waiting list of sorts for the new release.. Dont know for sure whats really going on behind dtvs closed doors..
__________________


----------



## litzdog911

klm said:


> I was told if you try to close out your DirecTV account for issues with your old TiVo DVR they put you on a waiting list of sorts for the new release.. Dont know for sure whats really going on behind dtvs closed doors..
> __________________


I've never heard that.


----------



## Scopeman

shibby191 said:


> The only number that matters in the end is the Net adds/loss.


That is completely wrong - your answer implies that the adds and the losses all have the same profitability and cost to DTV.

But we all know that is not correct, because a new add costs a lot in new subscriber discounts, installation, etc. Plus the marketing costs to attract them.

That is why churn rate is a CRITICAL metric that is watched by analysts; it is a representation of a cost in the business (customer acquisition costs) as well as a reflection of what percent of the installed base is higher margin retention customers providing steady revenue streams.

If only NET add/loss mattered then the entire customer base could swap out (100% churn) and there would be no implied problem. Clearly that is not the case.


----------



## shibby191

Scopeman said:


> That is completely wrong - your answer implies that the adds and the losses all have the same profitability and cost to DTV.
> 
> But we all know that is not correct, because a new add costs a lot in new subscriber discounts, installation, etc. Plus the marketing costs to attract them.
> 
> That is why churn rate is a CRITICAL metric that is watched by analysts; it is a representation of a cost in the business (customer acquisition costs) as well as a reflection of what percent of the installed base is higher margin retention customers providing steady revenue streams.
> 
> If only NET add/loss mattered then the entire customer base could swap out (100% churn) and there would be no implied problem. Clearly that is not the case.


You are certainly correct. And it's another tip of the hat to DirecTV since they have the lowest churn they've had in nearly a decade.


----------



## sluciani

Scopeman said:


> [...] That is why churn rate is a CRITICAL metric that is watched by analysts; [...]


Churn is also an indicator of customer dissatisfaction. And yes, DirecTV's churn rate is at a 9-year low... even lower than the period of time DirecTiVo's were the only Direct DVR's available. TiVo needs to get their new box out the door ASAP, IMO, if they hope to make any significant inroads into the DirecTV HD subscriber base.

Given how similar the TiVoHD hardware is to the HR2x platform, I'm frankly surprised that 6 months after the announcement, we still haven't heard anything about a beta. /steve


----------



## sluciani

TiVo's 4/3/09 10-k filing indicates that the new DirecTiVo won't be available until "calendar year" 2010.

Marketwatch story here. /steve


----------



## shibby191

sluciani said:


> TiVo's 4/3/09 10-k filing indicates that the new DirecTiVo won't be available until "calendar year" 2010.
> 
> Marketwatch story here. /steve


LOL. Imagine that, I've been saying that for 6 months. Tivo never delivers anything on time.


----------



## bitmap

sluciani said:


> TiVo's 4/3/09 10-k filing indicates that the new DirecTiVo won't be available until "calendar year" 2010.


This text from their filing troubles me greatly:
"We have agreed to work with DIRECTV to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform"

This makes it sound like tivo software running on the existing D*TV hardware.
I think most have heard of the mess that is the Comcast DVR running Tivo code.

Why can't they get that I don't want a D*TV DVR with Tivo, 
I want a _TIVO_ with D*TV tuners?


----------



## nrc

bitmap said:


> This makes it sound like tivo software running on the existing D*TV hardware.
> I think most have heard of the mess that is the Comcast DVR running Tivo code.


That's exactly what the agreement calls for. Except that it may be a new DTV DVR rather than an existing one. In fact, that could be the reason for the delay.

I don't think that you need to worry about the ComCast situation with the new DTiVo. The problem there is that ComCast has taken an underpowered box and asked TiVo to rewrite their interface in Java and put it on top of the existing Comcast software. On top of that they asked them to have it load and install remotely which created even more problems.

The hardware in DTV's DVRs appears to be very comparable to that in the latest TiVo hardware. The devil is in the details, but there's no reason to think that TiVo software won't run just fine. It's also likely that this box will be packaged and sold as a TiVo box and not software downloaded to an existing DTV DVR.


----------



## cramer

bitmap said:


> This makes it sound like tivo software running on the existing D*TV hardware.
> I think most have heard of the mess that is the Comcast DVR running Tivo code.


The Comcast system is very different. There, tivo runs on top of the OCAP middleware -- making it an OCAP application. They weren't able or allowed to program the hardware directly as they do on their own systems -- it'd take too many years to get past Motorola (who makes the box) and Cablelabs (who bless all cablecard hardware.)

With the DTV hardware, one would assume Directv would give them the full specs to the system to port their existing "mess" to it. Having never seen the insides of one of those HR2x critters, I have no idea how much work would be involved in getting their code working on it. Adding to the work is the need to handle DVB-S2 in addition to DSS. (DSS code they already have from the existing DTivo line.)

And they already said, "not this year" at this year's CES. If they were going to have something this year, I'm fairly certain they would've had a prototype of it at CES (like they did the DTivo and "series 3") -- 'tho it would look nothing like the finished unit. (e.g. the "cablecard tivo" demo was in a DSR-6000 body -- an AT&T S2.5 as I recall.)


----------



## sluciani

There's little difference between the hardware architecture of the BCM7401-based TiVoHD and the DirecTV BCM7401-based HR21, so the current DirecTV HR2x platform should be up to the task. As *nrc *and *cramer *state, this wouldn't be middleware. It should run natively, much like the current DirecTiVo software does. /steve


----------



## tgibbs

nrc said:


> That's exactly what the agreement calls for. Except that it may be a new DTV DVR rather than an existing one. In fact, that could be the reason for the delay.


That is certainly implied by the statement, "Under the terms of our non-exclusive arrangement, we are working with DIRECTV and its suppliers to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTVs broadband-enabled HD DVR platform to deliver the new HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service to DIRECTV for a launch to consumers as soon as possible in calendar year 2010."


----------



## hbergh

"Tivo Service", that's just the part where the box calls home and gets suggestions? The part that you get when you plug it into your phone line? Maybe that's all it is. Oh, and you'll need a new remote, with two thumbs.


----------



## dyanni

I held on. I still use my DirecTivo exclusively - have been called and offered free dvrs from Directv several times over the past year to 'upgrade' ... and I tell them no - and tell them why ( I love Tivo ) - and each time they take away another HD channel I can watch on my HR10 - I call now and ask when the new Tivo will be out and they say ... we dont' know... but hey let us give you one of ours for free. . .. ... .... I talk ... and they don't hear ...

I still pay 92 bucks a month and get fewer and fewer HD channels. My patience is wearing thin. I've started watching the free stuf. Payon is awesome. Netflix does a great job for a lot less than DirecTV - in my situation. - then there is always always the internet jungle to play in.

Guys - how long is the estimated wait ? The economy sucks - I think I might be able to live without the 92.00 a month support payment to DirecTV that I now mostly consider a loss ... The longer it takes DirecTV to finally push - and pop out this baby - the less and less importance I place on my susbcription to their service.


Hersheytx said:


> No way did Directv loose 3 million subscribers last year.
> Heck Dish got hammered because they lost 100K last quarter.
> If Directv would have losted that many they would have seen their stock drop down to the level of EchoStar. (pennies a share).
> 
> I am a devout TIVO fan. I still have an HDTIVO and SD TIVO hooked up on my account. But I also have three HD DVRs (HR20,21,22) on my account.
> And they are not that bad. They do the job and record what I want to watch.
> 
> Now would I buy the new HD TIVO coming out this year? YOU BET YA!
> WIll I replace everything I have with TIVOs. Probably not. I like a lot of stuff Directv has done. THat is why I became a customer in November of 94.
> 
> I remember Cable. I remember the promises. I remember the outages. I remember the bad picture. I remember the customer service from hell. I remember how happy Directv has made my television viewing.
> Every year they lead in giving me more for my money. HD programming. More channels. More HD DVR functions. VOD. Heck cable never even cared about me until I left.
> 
> I have friends that I got hooked on TIVO and Directv. We all feel that a new TIVO HD Box will sell. But none of us have jumped ship. Sure we miss the Tivo interface. I can still use a Tivo remote in the dark with one hand. Still have a problem with the Directv HD remote. Damn those colored buttons!!!
> 
> But lets be honest. It was Directv that started with TIVO. They were the leaders of the pack. Always trying to make things better. So give it a rest on all this hype that we are jumping ship.
> If you want to jump, jump. I for one will stick with Directv and get my new HD TIVO later this year.


----------



## sjberra

dyanni said:


> I held on. I still use my DirecTivo exclusively - have been called and offered free dvrs from Directv several times over the past year to 'upgrade' ... and I tell them no - and tell them why ( I love Tivo ) - and each time they take away another HD channel I can watch on my HR10 - I call now and ask when the new Tivo will be out and they say ... we dont' know... but hey let us give you one of ours for free. . .. ... .... I talk ... and they don't hear ...
> 
> I still pay 92 bucks a month and get fewer and fewer HD channels. My patience is wearing thin. I've started watching the free stuf. Payon is awesome. Netflix does a great job for a lot less than DirecTV - in my situation. - then there is always always the internet jungle to play in.
> 
> Guys - how long is the estimated wait ? The economy sucks - I think I might be able to live without the 92.00 a month support payment to DirecTV that I now mostly consider a loss ... The longer it takes DirecTV to finally push - and pop out this baby - the less and less importance I place on my susbcription to their service.


Mentioned in this thread - sometime in 2010


----------



## fasTLane

dyanni said:


> I held on. I still use my DirecTivo exclusively - have been called and offered free dvrs from Directv several times over the past year to 'upgrade' ... and I tell them no - and tell them why ( I love Tivo ) - and each time they take away another HD channel I can watch on my HR10 - I call now and ask when the new Tivo will be out and they say ... we dont' know... but hey let us give you one of ours for free. . .. ... .... I talk ... and they don't hear ...
> 
> I still pay 92 bucks a month and get fewer and fewer HD channels. My patience is wearing thin. I've started watching the free stuf. Payon is awesome. Netflix does a great job for a lot less than DirecTV - in my situation. - then there is always always the internet jungle to play in.
> 
> Guys - how long is the estimated wait ? The economy sucks - I think I might be able to live without the 92.00 a month support payment to DirecTV that I now mostly consider a loss ... The longer it takes DirecTV to finally push - and pop out this baby - the less and less importance I place on my susbcription to their service.


*My sentiments exactly.*


----------



## dyanni

2010!

Well - on the bright side - I guess that could translate into a thousand dollar savings between now and then.



sjberra said:


> Mentioned in this thread - sometime in 2010


----------



## tgibbs

dyanni said:


> I held on. I still use my DirecTivo exclusively - have been called and offered free dvrs from Directv several times over the past year to 'upgrade' ... and I tell them no - and tell them why ( I love Tivo ) - and each time they take away another HD channel I can watch on my HR10 - I call now and ask when the new Tivo will be out and they say ... we dont' know... but hey let us give you one of ours for free. . .. ... .... I talk ... and they don't hear ...
> 
> I still pay 92 bucks a month and get fewer and fewer HD channels. My patience is wearing thin. I've started watching the free stuf. Payon is awesome. Netflix does a great job for a lot less than DirecTV - in my situation. - then there is always always the internet jungle to play in.
> 
> Guys - how long is the estimated wait ? The economy sucks - I think I might be able to live without the 92.00 a month support payment to DirecTV that I now mostly consider a loss ... The longer it takes DirecTV to finally push - and pop out this baby - the less and less importance I place on my susbcription to their service.


I'm in the same boat. I get most of my HD OTA, so I'm inclined to limp along with the HR10, but if it's going to be next year, I I'm thinking that I may drop back to a cheaper class of DirecTV service as the premium HD channels go away. If they had not announced a new DirecTiVo, I'd have already have jumped ship to Comcast. I have a Series 3 (currently OTA only) so I could always add a cable card to that

I'm not interested in a non-TiVo DVR. I've seen some, and have been unimpressed. The only reason why I went to DirecTV in the first place was for HD TiVo service


----------



## fasTLane

tgibbs said:


> I'm not interested in a non-TiVo DVR. I've seen some, and have been unimpressed. The only reason why I went to DirecTV in the first place was for HD TiVo service


*My sentiments exactly.
*


----------



## dyanni

The lastest 'offer you can't refuse'

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> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> • More channels in HD: The new HD broadcasting method will allow DIRECTV to deliver more channels in HD. We recently launched 130 HD channels with this new method, and more are coming soon.
> 
> • The latest equipment-FREE: The HD programming you currently enjoy-including NFL games, ESPN, ESPN2, TNT, HDNet, HBO®, SHOWTIME®, prime-time shows and major network events-will need the latest HD equipment to be viewed in HD.
> 
> We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.  BUT WE DONT CARE  We are working to continue improving your HD experience. Thank you for being a loyal DIRECTV customer.


no thanks.


----------



## sk33t3r

Just called and got my Hr10-250 upgrade or downgraded to a new HD DVR, no idea what model. I can also upgrade my non DVR legacy receivers to new ones for $20 shipping and I can upgrade one of my S2 std dvr to a new dvr for free as well. Should I keep the Tivo boxes as they are all tweaked!!!


----------



## stevel

The HR10 is still useful as a large-capacity SD recorder with network features and HDMI out. It makes more sense to keep that running than the HDVR2s.


----------



## fasTLane

Cant wait to get one of those beta tested HR2x DLB's and HR-HR MRV. yuk yuk


----------



## litzdog911

fasTLane said:


> Cant wait to get one of those beta tested HR2x DLB's and HR-HR MRV. yuk yuk


You might want to provide a bit more information for those that haven't yet heard that Dual Live Buffers was just released for beta testing on the DirecTV DVRs ....

This was just posted in the DirecTV Support Forum, and several posts at DBSTalk also ....

_I know many of you have wanted DLB (Dual Live Buffers) for the HD DVRs so I am posting this update for you. It has been posted on some of the other public sat forums that DLB has entered testing and I can confirm that. The test software has two 90-minute buffers (bigger than the TiVo buffers), one for each tuner, and allows you to flip between tuners in a mode similar to TiVo. Early days yet, it started test yesterday, but I assume we will see this feature in a future national release of the software for the HR2x DVRs._


----------



## argicida

> I know many of you have wanted DLB (Dual Live Buffers) for the HD DVRs so I am posting this update for you. It has been posted on some of the other public sat forums that DLB has entered testing and I can confirm that. The test software has two 90-minute buffers (bigger than the TiVo buffers), one for each tuner, and allows you to flip between tuners in a mode similar to TiVo. Early days yet, it started test yesterday, but I assume we will see this feature in a future national release of the software for the HR2x DVRs.


Interesting. Tivo is usually pretty good about patenting their unique features. I wonder if DirecTV is using a different method to obtain the same reult.


----------



## stevel

I'm not aware that TiVo has a patent on DLB, and it has been stated several times from those who should know that patents were not the issue. In any event, DirecTV and TiVo have a patent-licensing arrangement.


----------



## argicida

stevel said:


> I'm not aware that TiVo has a patent on DLB, and it has been stated several times from those who should know that patents were not the issue. In any event, DirecTV and TiVo have a patent-licensing arrangement.


I'm certainly not aware of it either - but lacked reports anybody with knowledge. That also makes sense about the patent licensing... except it would appear Tivo has not licensed everything to D*.


----------



## shibby191

argicida said:


> Interesting. Tivo is usually pretty good about patenting their unique features. I wonder if DirecTV is using a different method to obtain the same reult.


Well, since there is nothing unique about DLB and just about every DVR on the planet has DLB I'd say that Tivo doesn't have a patent for it.


----------



## newsposter

end of this year!

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/04/29/new-directv-tivo-hd-still-on-schedule-for-this-year/


----------



## BGLeduc

newsposter said:


> end of this year!
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/04/29/new-directv-tivo-hd-still-on-schedule-for-this-year/


Great news if true, but I would like to see something more then "some dude got it via Twitter". 

As one of those head in the sand types that will not even consider a non-Tivo, this can not come soon enough.

Brian


----------



## 20TIL6

shibby191 said:


> Well, since there is nothing unique about DLB and just about every DVR on the planet has DLB I'd say that Tivo doesn't have a patent for it.


A more accurate statement is that some DVR providers have licensing agreements and/or other partnership arrangements with TiVo that provide for adequate immunity from infringement litigation. Still, some DVR providers have no agreement with TiVo, and have not faced infringement charges. One DVR provider has no agreement with TiVo, and they have been found guilty of patent infringement. So I don't think we can assume this is a patent issue, when it could simply be an agreement issue.


----------



## sjberra

BGLeduc said:


> Great news if true, but I would like to see something more then "some dude got it via Twitter".
> 
> As one of those head in the sand types that will not even consider a non-Tivo, this can not come soon enough.
> 
> Brian


Would believe the official statements a lot more rather then someone on twitter.


----------



## buckeyenut

Man, I'm so excited about this!


----------



## fasTLane

*+1*


----------



## shibby191

LOL. So some dude on Twitter says it's on track for this year trumps what Tivo corporate submitted to the SEC and what the CEO has said that it's due in 2010? Yea right.


----------



## shibby191

20TIL6 said:


> So I don't think we can assume this is a patent issue, when it could simply be an agreement issue.


However it is a fact that Tivo doesn't have a patent on DLB.


----------



## sjberra

shibby191 said:


> However it is a fact that Tivo doesn't have a patent on DLB.


especially since the last CE features for the HR2X's


----------



## 20TIL6

shibby191 said:


> However it is a fact that Tivo doesn't have a patent on DLB.


If their patented method of recording, indexing, and playback is key to enabling enough system resources to allow for more than one buffer to exist, then I think that could be debated. You are talking about an extended benefit of a core function. How different in method is DirecTV's core function? Then you can effectively differentiate such extended benefits as DLB.

But again, it could just as well be a matter of agreement over patent. But DirecTV comes around like clockwork and renews and/or extends their agreements with TiVo. Must be some reason for that.


----------



## buckeyenut

shibby191 said:


> LOL. So some dude on Twitter says it's on track for this year trumps what Tivo corporate submitted to the SEC and what the CEO has said that it's due in 2010? Yea right.


This year, next year. Doesn't matter. I need to retire the HR10-250.


----------



## shibby191

Latest Twitter post, a correction:


> DIRECTV To clarify previous posts, Tivo's latest development update on the HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo is available here:


Which points to the Tivo SEC filing which states 2010. LOL.

Pwnd


----------



## Cubfan

I've moved on. Don't miss the "bloop sound," the clumsy remote, the ads on every screen, and the slow interface. I don't want to enter about 20 remote commands with every reboot just to get 30-second skip. I don't miss pushed "upgrades" that give me a doorstop for weeks.

Name me one thing that Tivo will give us that we don't already have with the HR-2X DVRs/

Tivo, you cut your own throat, you prima-donnas. You're OS/2 while the world went Windows. We DirecTV subscribers don't miss you one bit. Suck it, Tivo.


----------



## Budget_HT

Cubfan said:


> I've moved on. Don't miss the "bloop sound," the clumsy remote, the ads on every screen, and the slow interface. I don't want to enter about 20 remote commands with every reboot just to get 30-second skip. I don't miss pushed "upgrades" that give me a doorstop for weeks.
> 
> Name me one thing that Tivo will give us that we don't already have with the HR-2X DVRs/
> 
> Tivo, you cut your own throat, you prima-donnas. You're OS/2 while the world went Windows. We DirecTV subscribers don't miss you one bit. Suck it, Tivo.


My two HR10-250 HD DirecTiVo units both operate flawlessly right now and they have for quite a while. I have always wondered why some of us have no problems and others have problems many of us are not seeing.

Yes, in the past when DirecTV was making changes to the guide data we all had some problems. Yes I had a power supply go bad in my oldest unit, but after repairs, all is stable again.


----------



## newsposter

Budget_HT said:


> My two HR10-250 HD DirecTiVo units both operate flawlessly right now and they have for quite a while. I have always wondered why some of us have no problems and others have problems many of us are not seeing.


yea no one else had the todo problem i had...it would 'reset' itself just when you scanned thru it. very annoying once past the first screen..then would lock up and you cant move around at all within it

as far as 30 sec skip it's only 7 buttons


----------



## JimSpence

Cubfan said:


> ...
> Name me one thing that Tivo will give us that we don't already have with the HR-2X DVRs/...


With the addition of DLB on the HR2x platform there is only one thing I can think of. And that is the TiVo style grid guide. I miss it, but have learned to move on. Afterall, exactly how often does one really surf the guide anymore?


----------



## WaldorfSalad

Cubfan said:


> I've moved on. Don't miss the "bloop sound," the clumsy remote, the ads on every screen, and the slow interface. I don't want to enter about 20 remote commands with every reboot just to get 30-second skip. I don't miss pushed "upgrades" that give me a doorstop for weeks.
> 
> Name me one thing that Tivo will give us that we don't already have with the HR-2X DVRs/
> 
> Tivo, you cut your own throat, you prima-donnas. You're OS/2 while the world went Windows. We DirecTV subscribers don't miss you one bit. Suck it, Tivo.


the "bloop sound"? I turned that off in the first hour of setting up my D*HDTivo 5 years ago.
clumsy remote? I really like the peanut remote much better than the other D* remotes.
the ads on every screen? Nope, not on my HR10-250.
slow interface? Yes, it can be a bit slow at times but a non-destructive C&D perks it up again.
30-second skip? don't use it. I actually prefer the default operation of the skip button.
pushed "upgrades". I decided to stay with 3.1.5f.
I love the DLB and the Tivo guide.
My comments are regarding the HR10-250. Its worked pretty well for 5 years, though I did have to replace the power supply a couple of months ago to fix some flakiness.
Just my 2c.

I'm looking forward to the new D* HD Tivo as I've been a die-hard Tivo fan for almost 10 years (Sont T60 before HR10-250) but I was a bit disappointed by the TivoHD that I had for a month before throwing in th towel due to various problems. I hope the new D* HD Tivo won't have as many problems.


----------



## MichaelK

newsposter said:


> ....
> 
> as far as 30 sec skip it's only 7 buttons


30 second skip survives reboots on the s2's and S3's for several versons now....

no reason a new directv box wont behave the same (unless directv says so...)


----------



## stevel

I hope the new DirecTV TiVos don't have the ads that are sprouting up all over the standalones.


----------



## MichaelK

I'd bet that not only do the tivo ads show up on the directivos but that they have more ads then the stand alone boxes. Last I read tivo and directv have a deal that not only can tivo sell ads on the directivos but directv can also and keep the cash all to themselves.


----------



## Sir_winealot

Cubfan said:


> Suck it, Tivo.


Yeah, TiVo is like-like.... so gay (NTTAWWT).


----------



## HiDefGator

shibby191 said:


> However it is a fact that Tivo doesn't have a patent on DLB.


I guess if Tivo did have a patent then Directv would have to add a third tuner and make it TLB to get aropund the patent.


----------



## shibby191

HiDefGator said:


> I guess if Tivo did have a patent then Directv would have to add a third tuner and make it TLB to get aropund the patent.


Actually it wouldn't matter if Tivo had a patent or not. DirecTV has access to Tivo's patents per contract and they also have the no sue clause in place on their contract until 2018 (which is when Tivo's patents run out). The real reason for the new contract. 

And you're actually not too far off anyway since on DBSTalk it's been demod with QLB, quad live buffers. Basically if you have 2 other DVRs on your network you can MRV from each plus have your dual buffers on the DVR you're on so you could switch between 4 live buffering programs at once. Or something like that if I follow it correctly. Pretty cool stuff if you got MRV going as well.


----------



## 20TIL6

shibby191 said:


> Actually it wouldn't matter if Tivo had a patent or not. DirecTV has access to Tivo's patents per contract and they also have the no sue clause in place on their contract until 2018 (which is when Tivo's patents run out). The real reason for the new contract.
> 
> And you're actually not too far off anyway since on DBSTalk it's been demod with QLB, quad live buffers. Basically if you have 2 other DVRs on your network you can MRV from each plus have your dual buffers on the DVR you're on so you could switch between 4 live buffering programs at once. Or something like that if I follow it correctly. Pretty cool stuff if you got MRV going as well.


Just read today that TiVo was granted another patent, originally filed in 2002. I'm still trying to figure out its application, but it sounds like it covers trick play on multiple buffers (not just the one being viewed on the primary output). Don't know if this has any impact on what you are describing, or if DirecTV has access to it based upon their agreement. I'm wondering if newly granted TiVo patents, of which DirecTV wants to use, would in your scenario signify a new contract to what... 2029?


----------



## spolebitski

When is the DirectTV Tivo going to be available?


----------



## litzdog911

spolebitski said:


> When is the DirectTV Tivo going to be available?


"Early 2010" based on recent statements.


----------



## Cubfan

litzdog911 said:


> "Early 2010" based on recent statements.


2011 based on recent experience.


----------



## shibby191

LOL.

Actually the last official word was from Tivo themselves stated as earliest as possible in 2010. So that's obviously not even saying first half or anything. So who knows at this point other then it's not canceled and still planned for.


----------



## fasTLane

FIOS is coming here soon. Which one will win the race and earn my business? Stay tuned.


----------



## 20TIL6

fasTLane said:


> FIOS is coming here soon. Which one will win the race and earn my business? Stay tuned.


Lucky dog.


----------



## litzdog911

Cubfan said:


> 2011 based on recent experience.


I was just relaying the latest official word. But I agree that it's likely to slip. That's been their track record forever.


----------



## shibby191

litzdog911 said:


> I was just relaying the latest official word. But I agree that it's likely to slip. That's been their track record forever.


And you'd think they would put all resources on this and get it out sooner then later. Especially now with MRV and DLB (the biggest complaint by far for Tivo owners) on the HR series, there becomes less and less "must have" for a new DirecTivo unit. Tivo needs to get off their butt or it will be too late to have much of an impact, if it isn't already.


----------



## MichaelK

looks like the directivo may wind up like the comcastivo or the coxtivo. 

basically a failure because tivo takes too long to get a working product out the door.

very said indeed. Tivo basically is leaving their only significant market segment to be cablecard dvr's purchased by the end user.


----------



## shibby191

Well, Tivo continues it's uphill battle.

DirecTV 1st quarter results:
http://investor.directv.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=382409

460,000 net subscriber additions (in one quarter!) and 10 year low churn (which continued to go down).

So this was the big quarter in my mind. First full quarter with the HR20's subs coming off of 2 year agreements. Continuing the trend from 4th quarter churn keeps going down. This means that DirecTV subs as a whole are happy with their HR2x series DVR. If they weren't they would be leaving in droves by now as predicted by many.

Looks like DirecTV was right.

Still, Tivo needs to get off their arss and get the new DirecTivo HD out sooner then later or it will be way too late for them to have any impact on the market. Assuming it gets out in early 2010 I would predict around half a million subs for the new receiver. That's just not enough. Especially since DirecTV will have well over 10 million on their own DVR by then. However anything is better then nothing for Tivo, but if they are betting the company on a new DirecTivo success it's looking pretty grim.


----------



## Kyle

Well, we decided to make the leap to Fios. (Installation is Monday!) It was a pretty clear-cut decision just based on the bundle pricing. We did buy a Tivo to go with it though.. our first non-DirecTV model.


----------



## NoCalME

JimSpence said:


> With the addition of DLB on the HR2x platform there is only one thing I can think of. And that is the TiVo style grid guide.


I would add Suggestions to the list of features I sorely miss on the HR20. My HR10 recorded numerous first-rate movies, documentaries, etc. that I would have missed without Suggestions enabled. The TiVo guide is still superior, but the DirecTV guide is decent.


----------



## sjberra

NoCalME said:


> I would add Suggestions to the list of features I sorely miss on the HR20. My HR10 recorded numerous first-rate movies, documentaries, etc. that I would have missed without Suggestions enabled. The TiVo guide is still superior, but the DirecTV guide is decent.


suggestions was the second thing I turned off on the HR10's.


----------



## Cudahy

Different strokes - a key thing for me is I can search for movies alphabetically on Tivo but not on my DirectvDVR which doesn't have a category search.


----------



## JimSpence

I also removed the automatic recording of suggestions, but will check the list for anything that might be of interest. It doesn't happen very often, especially since 99&#37; of my viewing is now HD.


----------



## sjberra

Cudahy said:


> Different strokes - a key thing for me is I can search for movies alphabetically on Tivo but not on my DirectvDVR which doesn't have a category search.


Just brought up Search by Title and it listed all the shows available in alpha sequence. Seems to be the same thing to me, click in a T and all the shows whose title starts with a T show up

Never really used about catagory search, prefer to search by person or keyword, little more accurate


----------



## Cudahy

It would take an hour to look through all the programs alphabetically. With Tivo's subcategory searches you can look through the movies in 20 minutes. I keep an updated list of quality movies I haven't seen and use the Tivo movie search every eleven days. I usually find 2 or 3.


----------



## shibby191

Cudahy said:


> It would take an hour to look through all the programs alphabetically. With Tivo's subcategory searches you can look through the movies in 20 minutes. I keep an updated list of quality movies I haven't seen and use the Tivo movie search every eleven days. I usually find 2 or 3.


Try this (I know it's not the same but I find it much better since I can do it at work when I'm bored) since you've got a list of movies you want.

Log in to your account at Directv's web site.
In the search bar up top type in the name of your movie and search.
If it finds it at all in the guide in the next 2 weeks you can then remote schedule it to your DVR (including the HR10).

At least it's something and some find it nice.


----------



## sluciani

Cudahy said:


> It would take an hour to look through all the programs alphabetically. With Tivo's subcategory searches you can look through the movies in 20 minutes. I keep an updated list of quality movies I haven't seen and use the Tivo movie search every eleven days. I usually find 2 or 3.


What's an example of a saved search you'd like to periodically run on the HR2x that you can only run on a TiVo?

I ask, because category searches are really no problem on the DirecTV boxes. You just may not be aware of how to run them, because the search UI is not as intuitive. /steve


----------



## samo

Cudahy said:


> It would take an hour to look through all the programs alphabetically. With Tivo's subcategory searches you can look through the movies in 20 minutes. I keep an updated list of quality movies I haven't seen and use the Tivo movie search every eleven days. I usually find 2 or 3.


Go to keyword search and type letter A. Just about every movie has at least one letter "a" in a title or description. Then you can go to categories and select movies. Then you can narrow it down to comedy for example.
Next time go to your recent searches and repeat the search by one click.


----------



## joed32

VOD has a category search that works like the old one. I would like to see the same thing on broadcast movies.


----------



## Cudahy

I tried your suggestion, Samo, but the movies don't appear alphabetically in the category search. Why Directv doesn't have a category subsearch to their title search is baffling to me. I doubt that Tivo has a patent on that.


----------



## sluciani

Cudahy said:


> I tried your suggestion, Samo, but the movies don't appear alphabetically in the category search. Why Directv doesn't have a category subsearch to their title search is baffling to me. I doubt that Tivo has a patent on that.


They have a category subsearch to their Keyword searches, which can be limited to Titles if you like, so it's there. Like I said above, give me an example of a search you think you can run on the TiVo but not not on the HR2x.

DirecTV keyword search results are listed in "showing" order, BTW. Some folks like this, and some don't. I personally would prefer to see all keyword search matches for a particular movie appear in a single folder in an alphabetized list, similar to Title searches, but their approach gets the job done as well, if not as elegantly. /steve


----------



## nrc

sluciani said:


> They have a category subsearch to their Keyword searches, which can be limited to Titles if you like, so it's there. Like I said above, give me an example of a search you think you can run on the TiVo but not not on the HR2x.


How about a search that will tell me if the movie I'm interested in is available by broadcast, cable, Amazon, Jaman, or Cinema Now? 

Will the DTV DVR allow you to automatically search on the current program (either airing now or pre-recorded), then pick out that actress that caught your eye from the cast list, and search for other movies that she appears in that are being broadcast or available for rental? All without entering any text.


----------



## samo

nrc said:


> How about a search that will tell me if the movie I'm interested in is available by broadcast, cable, Amazon, Jaman, or Cinema Now?


4500 titles on-demand is as close as it gets on DirecTV. But why would somebody who subscribes to DirecTV want to know what is available on cable?
And personally, I prefer to know what movies are available in 1080P vs. Jaman or Amazon SD or new 720P HD. Maybe one day TiVo offers 1080P output and perhaps these online services will jump on it and allow you to watch movies in best quality, but for now watching SD movies (some you even have to pay for) on beautiful LCD HD TV seems to me as waste of time and money.


> Will the DTV DVR allow you to automatically search on the current program (either airing now or pre-recorded), then pick out that actress that caught your eye from the cast list, and search for other movies that she appears in that are being broadcast or available for rental? All without entering any text.


Typing few letters does not seem to be a monumental task to me. But answer to your question is no. If you asked me - "in your wildest dreams, would you ever think that you would want to search for the actress that you never heard before from the movie you just watch and search for her movies on broadcast or Amazon without typing her name" - my answer will still be no.


----------



## sluciani

samo said:


> Typing few letters does not seem to be a monumental task to me. But answer to your question is no.


You certainly can search for any actor, director or writer in the HR2x's VOD/GUIDE database, but not without typing the name. And you can limit those searches to categories. Sandra Bullock comedies, e.g., or John Ford westerns. /steve


----------



## nrc

samo said:


> 4500 titles on-demand is as close as it gets on DirecTV. But why would somebody who subscribes to DirecTV want to know what is available on cable?


Because they get both and they want to know what's available to them through any source? The point is that TiVo Search goes beyond what's available on an ordinary DVR by aggregating content across many providers.



> And personally, I prefer to know what movies are available in 1080P vs. Jaman or Amazon SD or new 720P HD. Maybe one day TiVo offers 1080P output and perhaps these online services will jump on it and allow you to watch movies in best quality, but for now watching SD movies (some you even have to pay for) on beautiful LCD HD TV seems to me as waste of time and money.


TiVo downloads from Amazon are 1080p usually with Dolby 5.1 sound. They're currently displayed by TiVo at 1080i, but the difference is negligible on a good display. The quality is very good.



> Typing few letters does not seem to be a monumental task to me. But answer to your question is no. If you asked me - "in your wildest dreams, would you ever think that you would want to search for the actress that you never heard before from the movie you just watch and search for her movies on broadcast or Amazon without typing her name" - my answer will still be no.


You could say the same thing about programming your VCR by day and time for all your programs. The scenario I suggested was just one example. Having instant access to hyper-linked searches completely changes how you use search. My number of auto-record wishlists has increased four-fold since this feature became available. It's just so simple that you can create auto-record Wish Lists for almost anything that occurs to you.


----------



## wkearney99

Cubfan said:


> 2011 based on recent experience.


Or how about... *never*? Based on DirecTV's failure to deliver any of their PC-integration devices, I wouldn't hold out much hope of anything they promise ever being delivered.


----------



## sjberra

wkearney99 said:


> Or how about... *never*? Based on DirecTV's failure to deliver any of their PC-integration devices, I wouldn't hold out much hope of anything they promise ever being delivered.


Have you tried direct2pc yet, been watching movies that are recorded on my HR2X's for awhile on the PC's in the house.


----------



## shibby191

wkearney99 said:


> Or how about... *never*? Based on DirecTV's failure to deliver any of their PC-integration devices, I wouldn't hold out much hope of anything they promise ever being delivered.


Not sure where this comment came from. It's all in Tivo's court, they are the one's making the receiver. And Tivo has already delayed it until next year. However, when was the last time Tivo delivered anything on time?


----------



## nrc

shibby191 said:


> Not sure where this comment came from. It's all in Tivo's court, they are the one's making the receiver. And Tivo has already delayed it until next year. However, when was the last time Tivo delivered anything on time?


Both the Series 3 and the HD were delivered on time.

Do you have some source for the notion that "it's all in TiVo's court"? The agreement which has been filed indicates that the DirecTV is responsible for the receiver and TiVo will provide software on the hardware that DirecTV provides.


----------



## sjberra

nrc said:


> Both the Series 3 and the HD were delivered on time.
> 
> Do you have some source for the notion that "it's all in TiVo's court"? The agreement which has been filed indicates that the DirecTV is responsible for the receiver and TiVo will provide software on the hardware that DirecTV provides.


pretty good indication the reciever is already in place - HR2X's. If I recall correctly it was mentioned that it will go to existing hardware. Software is in Tivo's court.


----------



## shibby191

Yea, the software, which is the crux of this whole deal, is all Tivo. Possible I guess Tivo could be waiting on a new receiver design from DirecTV, but the only new hardware that DirecTV has announced in it's filings is the new home server for 2010. Anything else we aren't privy to what is going on behind the scenes.

Think Comcast and Cox. Tivo develops the software onto their hardware. Same thing for this new DirecTivo.


----------



## sluciani

Here's what TiVo's SEC filing says: _"Under the terms of our non-exclusive agreement, TiVo will develop a new version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled high definition DVR platform."_

Since the DirecTV HR21/22/23 platform uses the same Broadcom 7401 chipset as the TiVoHD, I was really surprised when TiVo recently announced that the new software has been delayed until 2010. When the deal was first announced back in September of 2008, given how important DirecTV subscriber revenues are to TiVo, I fully expected them to fast track this product. It's now almost 9 months since the announcement, and there hasn't even been a _rumor_ about a beta!

With DirecTV testing HR2x MRV and DLB's, there's even less reason for SD DirecTiVo users to wait to upgrade. And at the same time the DirecTiVo finally does come out, DirecTV will probably be testing their "whole home" DVR product.

TiVo really missed the boat on this one, IMHO. /steve


----------



## 20TIL6

sluciani said:


> Here's what TiVo's SEC filing says: _"Under the terms of our non-exclusive agreement, TiVo will develop a new version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled high definition DVR platform."_
> 
> Since the DirecTV HR21/22/23 platform uses the same Broadcom 7401 chipset as the TiVoHD, I was really surprised when TiVo recently announced that the new software has been delayed until 2010. When the deal was first announced back in September of 2008, given how important DirecTV subscriber revenues are to TiVo, I fully expected them to fast track this product. It's now almost 9 months since the announcement, and there hasn't even been a _rumor_ about a beta!
> 
> With DirecTV testing HR2x MRV and DLB's, there's even less reason for SD DirecTiVo users to wait to upgrade. And at the same time the DirecTiVo finally does come out, DirecTV will probably be testing their "whole home" DVR product.
> 
> TiVo really missed the boat on this one, IMHO. /steve


Just my opinion of course, but I don't think the delays are because of technical reasons. Purely business at this point. As with DirecTV, Comcast, and Cox, they have what could be considered 'protection' agreements in place with TiVo. All three would much rather see TiVo die off (Plan A). But the DISH litigation is not yet fully resolved, so they throw TiVo some bones (Plan B) yet still primarily market and maintain share with their in-house DVR platforms.

These guys are just paying some insurance right now, that's all. It's business, and these guys aren't going to push and market TiVo anymore than they are forced to. As a TiVo fan, I don't like that. But it is what it is.

If Dish prevails, these three will kick TiVo to the curb faster than you can skip through commercials.

It TiVo prevails, we might see any number of things. The least of which would be DirecTV, Comcast, and Cox all offering TiVo as a DVR platform. Or they could simply work out a licensing agreement to use the IP in their own platforms. DirecTV is probably the best positioned of the three.


----------



## shibby191

20TIL6 said:


> Just my opinion of course, but I don't think the delays are because of technical reasons. Purely business at this point. As with DirecTV, Comcast, and Cox, they have what could be considered 'protection' agreements in place with TiVo. All three would much rather see TiVo die off (Plan A). But the DISH litigation is not yet fully resolved, so they throw TiVo some bones (Plan B) yet still primarily market and maintain share with their in-house DVR platforms.
> 
> These guys are just paying some insurance right now, that's all. It's business, and these guys aren't going to push and market TiVo anymore than they are forced to. As a TiVo fan, I don't like that. But it is what it is.
> 
> If Dish prevails, these three will kick TiVo to the curb faster than you can skip through commercials.
> 
> It TiVo prevails, we might see any number of things. The least of which would be DirecTV, Comcast, and Cox all offering TiVo as a DVR platform. Or they could simply work out a licensing agreement to use the IP in their own platforms. DirecTV is probably the best positioned of the three.


There is probably more truth to your post then many realize. As for licensing Tivo's IP and patents, DirecTV's agreement with Tivo already allows for that. It also has a no sue clause until 2018, when Tivo's patents run out. If Tivo comes out with a killer platform for DirecTV then it's win-win for both. But I doubt DirecTV cares either way which is shown by the hard numbers (such as 2 straight quarters of the lowest churn in a decade despite the fact the original HR20 2 yr agreements are up, so they must be doing something right). What they really want is to not be sued and they have that.

But Tivo has missed the boat here. The DirecTV product should have been fast tracked like no tomorrow. It's to the point where by the time they actually get it out sometime in 2010 there may be less then 1 million DirecTivo owners left. Very much missed the boat.


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## GBTheater

I was with DirecTV for 8 years and owned two of the Sony DirecTivo boxes. Best device of its time. When DirecTV ended its relationship with Tivo, I was forced to move to Time Warner and their DVR. That lasted about a month before I invested in a couple of Series 3 boxes with cable card.
The quality just isn't the same as DirecTV and you all know what I'm talking about. I've never seen cable as clear as DirecTV.
I survived through it until I saw the announcement about the new HD DirecTivo box. It took me all of a few minutes to call DirecTV and order their service back up again. I told them when I left it was because of Tivo and I told them when I signed back up it was because of Tivo. If they're smart, they'll work to get the ball rolling on this thing.
I now have 4 boxes, 2 of the Series 3 Tivo's recording from my ATSC tuners and two of the HD DVR's from DirecTV for those channels I can't get over the air. I can't tell you how much I hate that DARN DirecTV box. It is at least 5 times slower to respond to commands than the Tivo. It is actually painful to use.
Time Warner finally has that darn 2-way tuning adapter working in my area, so DirectTV and Tivo better get on the ball or I may have to switch back to cable again


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## 20TIL6

GBTheater said:


> I was with DirecTV for 8 years and owned two of the Sony DirecTivo boxes. Best device of its time. When DirecTV ended its relationship with Tivo.....


Same story for me. I had been with DirecTV for over 13 years. Had the SAT-T60 and a newer Samsung variant. Loved those boxes, and loved DirecTV service. But that all ended when DirecTV kicked TiVo to the curb.

I have two S3 and three HD units, Comcast, OTA, and broadband connected. Still, even with all that, Comcast is just inept enough to upset everything. They just can't stop mucking around with things, and that impacts stability for me. Something I never worried about with DirecTV.

So yeah, I am waiting on the new DirecTV/TiVo and only until after it comes out will I return to DirecTV. Not a day before. Maybe I'll be waiting for a long time. Maybe the new DirecTV/TiVo will never happen. I'm OK for now. OTA, broadband, and yes, even Comcast will suffice for now.


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## sluciani

20TIL6 said:


> Same story for me. I had been with DirecTV for over 13 years. Had the SAT-T60 and a newer Samsung variant. Loved those boxes, and loved DirecTV service. But that all ended when DirecTV kicked TiVo to the curb.
> 
> I have two S3 and three HD units, Comcast, OTA, and broadband connected. Still, even with all that, Comcast is just inept enough to upset everything. They just can't stop mucking around with things, and that impacts stability for me. Something I never worried about with DirecTV.
> 
> So yeah, I am waiting on the new DirecTV/TiVo and only until after it comes out will I return to DirecTV. Not a day before. Maybe I'll be waiting for a long time. Maybe the new DirecTV/TiVo will never happen. I'm OK for now. OTA, broadband, and yes, even Comcast will suffice for now.


I've been a TiVo fan since I plunked down $800 back in 1999 for my first 30GB Series 1. They practically had to pry my HR10-250's from my hands back in March of 2007, but I wanted to see the Yankees in HD and I had no choice.

All I can tell you is that there is life after TiVo. The HR2x's are doing everything I need them to do, and now that they've got MRV, DLB's and a "whole-home" DVR promised for 2010, I probably won't ever be switching back to DirecTiVo's, as I thought one day I might. Had the new DirecTiVo come out prior to D* MRV and DLB's, it might have been a different story.


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## 20TIL6

sluciani said:


> I've been a TiVo fan since I plunked down $800 back in 1999 for my first 30GB Series 1. They practically had to pry my HR10-250's from my hands back in March of 2007, but I wanted to see the Yankees in HD and I had no choice.
> 
> All I can tell you is that there is life after TiVo. The HR2x's are doing everything I need them to do, and now that they've got MRV, DLB's and a "whole-home" DVR promised for 2010, I probably won't ever be switching back to DirecTiVo's, as I thought one day I might. Had the new DirecTiVo come out prior to D* MRV and DLB's, it might have been a different story.


I can appreciate your point. I am sure the HR2x's are coming up to speed nicely.

The loss of TiVo functionality and interface while using DirecTV service is a large reason why I canceled my 13+ year DirecTV account. But I have to also admit that another part of my reasoning had to do with ethics.

***And this is only my opinion on it.*** I am sure plenty will disagree with me.

When something bothers me from a consumer/business perspective, I try to enact a change. And if it only makes me feel better about it, that's OK. The DirecTV/TiVo situation was one of these for me.

I just felt that it was unethical for DirecTV to setup cross-license arrangements with TiVo, build a considerable DVR consumer base on the TiVo platform, and then basically kick TiVo to the curb and force the established consumer base onto their in-house platform through a change in transmission technology. Personally, I just think that is unethical.

DirecTV did not have the *DVR* IP to establish this *DVR* consumer base in the beginning. They got it from TiVo. And when they were able to (in-house DVR development), they kept the licensing agreements alive (no infringement lawsuits), but they orphaned the TiVo platform. And obviously, TiVo is a much weaker company without DirecTV.

So I am sure DirecTV management analyzed the legal aspect of it, and it passed. But to me, it still smells bad.

And you know, for my decision to look at it this way and act on it, I lost really great quality of signal and Sunday Ticket. And probably DirecTV lost nothing in the end. But like I said, if it only makes me feel better about something, then that's enough. And I still feel better about it.


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## sjberra

DirecTV did not have the IP to establish this consumer base in the beginning."

I may not be remembering correctly, but Directv was around in one form or the other long before TIVO even put their first unit on public test in 98, the first "directivo" did not hit until latw 2000 when Phillips Electronics released the DSR6000. Seems to me it is the other way around


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## CuriousMark

Dvr Ip


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## sluciani

20TIL6 said:


> DirecTV did not have the *DVR* IP to establish this *DVR* consumer base in the beginning. They got it from TiVo. And when they were able to (in-house DVR development), they kept the licensing agreements alive (no infringement lawsuits), but they orphaned the TiVo platform. And obviously, TiVo is a much weaker company without DirecTV.
> 
> So I am sure DirecTV management analyzed the legal aspect of it, and it passed. But to me, it still smells bad.


I suspect you don't own any DirecTV stock. 

It doesn't make good business sense to have a key component of your business under the control of a third party that can turn around and hold you hostage when the current contract agreement expires. Given how every other cable and sat company had already developed their own DVR's, it would have been foolish for DirecTV to not have a "plan B" in place to provide them some leverage for future contract renewals. TiVo has no such advantage over anyone else, so why should DirecTV give it to them?

And don't forget, DirecTV now owns the Replay IP and, as a result, probably has less to worry about a TiVo lawsuit than any other company out there, since TiVo and Replay agreed not to sue each other several years ago. Even so, DirecTV still took the "high road" and recently renewed the TiVo deal, when they arguably didn't have to.

Don't forget, TiVo owes DirecTV as well. DirecTV paid them handsomely for the IP and work they did for them in the past... in 2006, they accounted for 2/3 of all TiVo's subscriber revenues. They may not still be around today, if it wasn't for that DirecTV deal.

My point is that TiVo has benefited as much from the relationship as DirecTV, so arguing that "TiVo got screwed" is falling on deaf ears here... and I'm a TiVo fanboy!  /steve


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## sjberra

CuriousMark said:


> Dvr Ip


sorry Directv probably could have bought Tivo at that time without a problem


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## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> sorry Directv probably could have bought Tivo at that time without a problem


I really, really wish they would have.


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## sluciani

sjberra said:


> sorry Directv probably could have bought Tivo at that time without a problem





20TIL6 said:


> I really, really wish they would have.


That probably would have made the most sense, considering what it must have cost D* so far to develop the HR2x's. Who knows? They may have explored the possibility and TiVo wanted what DirecTV thought was too much money. Murdoch probably figured it would be cheaper to build a box. Little did he know. /steve


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## shibby191

And of course now in hindsight it was the best thing DirecTV ever did, going their own way. Now that they have 8-9 million of their own DVRs out there and 60&#37;+ of all new subs get their DVR and chrun is at record lows with their own DVR with such subs out of commitment. And as mentioned above DirecTV controls their own destiny instead of having half their customer base beholden to Tivo instead. Having a new DirecTivo will be good for choice and good for Tivo. But it matters not to DirecTV frankly. It was all smart business on DirecTV's part.

Hopefully for those that want it and for competition Tivo can get off their cans and get this new unit out. But the longer they wait the worse it will be for them. At the current rate a year from now probably 75% of DirecTV's customer base will have the DirecTV DVR. Tivo will have a very hard time convincing most of those people that it's worth the extra premium for the Tivo based DVR.


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## nrc

sluciani said:


> It doesn't make good business sense to have a key component of your business under the control of a third party that can turn around and hold you hostage when the current contract agreement expires. Given how every other cable and sat company had already developed their own DVR's, ...


Not true. Most cable companies use relatively standard cable DVRs purchased from Motorola or Cisco.



> And don't forget, DirecTV now owns the Replay IP and, as a result, probably has less to worry about a TiVo lawsuit than any other company out there, since TiVo and Replay agreed not to sue each other several years ago.


Replay's IP doesn't seem to amount to much. The last time I searched the Patent database they had two patents. TiVo and Replay didn't agree not to sue each other. They simply agreed to mutually drop their existing suits at the time.



> Don't forget, TiVo owes DirecTV as well. DirecTV paid them handsomely for the IP and work they did for them in the past... in 2006, they accounted for 2/3 of all TiVo's subscriber revenues.


Not true. Although DirecTV accounted for 2/3 of TiVo's subscribers in 2006 they accounted for only 16% of subscriber revenue.


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## sjberra

sluciani said:


> That probably would have made the most sense, considering what it must have cost D* so far to develop the HR2x's. Who knows? They may have explored the possibility and TiVo wanted what DirecTV thought was too much money. Murdoch probably figured it would be cheaper to build a box. Little did he know. /steve


I am happy with the HR2X series, does everything that I need with none of the additional junk I don;t want. The new unit can never be released and it would not bother me in the least.

Besides out of the useful functions of the Tivo, the current beta relases on the hr2x's has them both.


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## Steveknj

shibby191 said:


> And of course now in hindsight it was the best thing DirecTV ever did, going their own way. Now that they have 8-9 million of their own DVRs out there and 60%+ of all new subs get their DVR and chrun is at record lows with their own DVR with such subs out of commitment. And as mentioned above DirecTV controls their own destiny instead of having half their customer base beholden to Tivo instead. Having a new DirecTivo will be good for choice and good for Tivo. But it matters not to DirecTV frankly. It was all smart business on DirecTV's part.
> 
> Hopefully for those that want it and for competition Tivo can get off their cans and get this new unit out. But the longer they wait the worse it will be for them. At the current rate a year from now probably 75% of DirecTV's customer base will have the DirecTV DVR. Tivo will have a very hard time convincing most of those people that it's worth the extra premium for the Tivo based DVR.


The only people who will WANT Tivos as opposed to D* DVRs will be the people who know the difference. Most new D* subs will get whatever DVR is offerered them with their package. I doubt many people will switch to Tivo, from a D* DVR considering they are probably already used to it, and it functions just fine. Better than most DVRs offered by Cable.


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## stevel

It may be that the new DTiVo will offer some extra-special features over and above the HR2x. They've already said that Swivel Search will be there, but that gets a big yawn from me. Transfer to PC and burn to DVD? Doubt it... Ads everywhere? Hope not.

What else is there?


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## 20TIL6

stevel said:


> It may be that the new DTiVo will offer some extra-special features over and above the HR2x. They've already said that Swivel Search will be there, but that gets a big yawn from me. Transfer to PC and burn to DVD? Doubt it... Ads everywhere? Hope not.
> 
> What else is there?


Well, speaking of search, what TiVo has done with search is pretty cool. Again, I have S3 and HD units. Don't know if HR2x has anything like this.

But there is a new TiVo Search available on my boxes - it's still labeled beta - but I use it frequently. Anyway, I'll give you a real life example of how I used it the other night.

Wife comes home talking about the other night's episode of SouthPark that somebody at her office was talking about. We don't really watch that show much anymore, but the person said it was really funny. Something about the economy.

Pull up SouthPark in find shows (regular search), nothing that sounds like that episode is upcoming. But open up the new TiVo search and every SouthPark episode is listed, organized by season. There are 13 seasons of SouthPark, did not know that. This one was a current season, so I look into season 13. There it is. "Margaritaville".

TiVo Search lets me know all the ways I could get this episode. If it is being broadcast in the next two weeks, it indicates that. If it's available from download, like Amazon On Demand, it indicates that. It also gives me the option to create a wish list.

So it told me that this episode is not being broadcast within the next two weeks (that's what regular search indicated). It showed that I could download it for $1.99 from Amazon. That's great, but not worth 2 bucks to me. So I clicked on create a wish list, and this is pretty neat.

It automatically took the episode I had isolated and created the boolean (sp?) wish list request, and set to automatically record whenever it is broadcast. No spelling and multiple letter entry, just select and done. Keyword wish list - SouthPark * Margaritaville.

I was impressed.


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## sluciani

nrc said:


> Replay's IP doesn't seem to amount to much. The last time I searched the Patent database they had two patents. TiVo and Replay didn't agree not to sue each other. They simply agreed to mutually drop their existing suits at the time.


Search for Sonic Blue, not Replay. There are over 50 patents.

And yes, they dropped the suits, but the implication of that is they also agreed not to sue each other again. They obviously each have credible patents, if neither side felt confident enough to continue their suits. And if they decided to revive the lawsuits, who's pockets do you think are deeper for a protracted fight?



nrc said:


> Not true. Most cable companies use relatively standard cable DVRs purchased from Motorola or Cisco.


I was talking about the software, not the hardware.


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## sjberra

Steveknj said:


> The only people who will WANT Tivos as opposed to D* DVRs will be the people who know the difference. Most new D* subs will get whatever DVR is offerered them with their package. I doubt many people will switch to Tivo, from a D* DVR considering they are probably already used to it, and it functions just fine. Better than most DVRs offered by Cable.


I know the difference - still prefer the HR2X series. Last Hr10 is sitting out in the garage hooked up to a old 19 onch black and white and the SD unit is in the guest room hooked to a 21 inch RCA console. Best place for them. with the latest ce, tivo has nothing that is even remotely interesting, and dlb ranks right there as being mildly interesting, not a life or death requirement, but mildly interesting. definately not worth an additional charge to have.


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## nrc

sluciani said:


> Search for Sonic Blue, not Replay. There are over 50 patents.


What search are you using? Searching for Sonic Blue or Sonicblue as assignee name yields one unrelated patent and a dozen or so applications mostly unrelated to DVR technology.



> And yes, they dropped the suits, but the implication of that is they also agreed not to sue each other again. They obviously each have credible patents, if neither side felt confident enough to continue their suits.


There was no such implication. The suits were dropped without prejudice. Dropping the suits had nothing to do with credibility. They simply recognized that the expense of lawsuits made no sense when the winner stood gain nothing but a big legal bill and a bankrupt competitor. If ReplayTV were flush with IP they wouldn't have floated around essentially unclaimed for years.



> And if they decided to revive the lawsuits, who's pockets do you think are deeper for a protracted fight?


Echostar's deep pockets didn't seem to deter them. But it's really irrelevant since DTV agreed to extend their agreement with TiVo.


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## innocentfreak

stevel said:


> It may be that the new DTiVo will offer some extra-special features over and above the HR2x. They've already said that Swivel Search will be there, but that gets a big yawn from me. Transfer to PC and burn to DVD? Doubt it... Ads everywhere? Hope not.
> 
> What else is there?


A big one for me is more than 50 season passes. Also after dealing with their R15 I have no desire to go back to the Directv interface. I tried it for months and never got the hang of it and could never remember where to go to do certain things. Don't get me wrong the Tivo interface needs an update but I find it superior to the Directv version even as outdated as it is.

Also in someways Tivo may do themselves a service by not offering the features of a regular Tivo on Directv. I think in the end you will have 4 groups of people assuming they don't release the Tivo with all the bells and whistles and depending on the extra fee.

Group 1 wants Tivo in HD and doesn't care about the missing features. They stay with DTV for sports or because they don't have a better option. They will either upgrade or swap out their DTV DVRs.

Group 2 has already upgraded to HD and is happy with the DTV DVR so won't switch. Some of this group doesn't know the difference between a Tivo and a DVR and they assume it is one in the same.

Group 3 has been patiently, yeah right lol, waiting for the new DTivo to upgrade. They either are happy with the final product and get the new Tivo or they go with DTV DVR for HD. Again sticking with DTV service due to bad cable options or for the sports.

Group 4 has also been waiting for Tivo, but if DTV fails to deliver switches to cable for Tivo. This is where I am at. If the DTivo isn't a full featured Tivo or at least the features I want like TTG and MRV, then I will switch to Fios since DTV doesn't offer anything extra for me except having the E/W feeds in SD. This group obviously benefits Tivo since it increases regular subs.


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## shibby191

innocentfreak said:


> A big one for me is more than 50 season passes. Also after dealing with their R15 I have no desire to go back to the Directv interface. I tried it for months and never got the hang of it and could never remember where to go to do certain things.


Just an FYI that the current DirecTV DVR UI on the HR series is leagues beyond what you had on that R15 way back when. It's all very intuitive. Took me about a month to get used to it. Then again I was tired of the same old Tivo UI I'd had for many years and looking forward to something different. Having said that, UI is a personal choice.


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## innocentfreak

shibby191 said:


> Just an FYI that the current DirecTV DVR UI on the HR series is leagues beyond what you had on that R15 way back when. It's all very intuitive. Took me about a month to get used to it. Then again I was tired of the same old Tivo UI I'd had for many years and looking forward to something different. Having said that, UI is a personal choice.


That is definitely good to hear. I don't have HD so I haven't been able to try it out yet and all of my friends use Tivo so no option to play with it either.


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## sluciani

nrc said:


> What search are you using? Searching for Sonic Blue or Sonicblue as assignee name yields one unrelated patent and a dozen or so applications mostly unrelated to DVR technology.


I'm having trouble finding as well. Could be I misremembered and it's a single patent with 50 claims, as reported here: http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117856663.html?categoryid=20&cs=1

None of this changes the facts. For whatever reason, DirecTV threw TiVo another life preserver almost 9 months ago, and, as far as we know, a new DirecTiVo is still not even in beta test yet. At the same time, the DirecTV DVR's have improved to the point that if D* subscribers do _any_ sort of comparison shopping, odds are they'll see little or no value in paying a premium for a TiVo-branded product. Just my .02.


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## nrc

sluciani said:


> I'm having trouble finding as well. Could be I misremembered and it's a single patent with 50 claims, as reported here: http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117856663.html?categoryid=20&cs=1


That's probably this one. One of two.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=PGwIAAAAEBAJ&dq=6,324,338



> None of this changes the facts. DirecTV threw TiVo another life preserver almost 9 months ago, and a new DirecTiVo is still not even in beta test yet, as far as we know. At the same time, the DirecTV DVR's have improved to the point that the odd that folks who like to comparison shop will pay any premium whatsoever for a DirecTiVo are rapidly increasing.


TiVo is near break even with 200 million in the bank and no debt. I'm sure they appreciate that DirecTV renewed their deal on substantially better terms, but it's hardly a "life preserver".

Evidently DirecTV feels that they'll get a reasonable number of TiVo subscriptions. They're on the hook for development costs and minimum monthly payments and will only recoup those expenses by signing up TiVo subscriptions. But yes, I'm sure that the folks who are still choking on the crow that they ate when DTV renewed their deal with TiVo will continue to deny the need for or benefit of any product from TiVo.


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## sluciani

nrc said:


> But yes, I'm sure that the folks who are still choking on the crow that they ate when DTV renewed their deal with TiVo will continue to deny the need for or benefit of any product from TiVo.


I'm not one of those folks you apparently feel a personal need to single out, so if they were meant for me, those words are falling on deaf ears.

I am, however, a longtime TiVo user and fan-boy who is familiar with the current state of TiVoHD and HR2x software, and the pros and cons of both. I'm also a grandfathered "lifetime" D*/TiVo subscriber, so I probably wouldn't even have to pay any add'l extra monthly charges for a new DirecTiVo. Knowing what I know today about what both platforms have to offer, if DirecTV offered me a TiVoHD with sat capability tomorrow, I wouldn't give up my HR20's.


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## nrc

sluciani said:


> I'm not one of those folks you apparently feel a personal need to single out, so if they were meant for me, those words are falling on deaf ears.


Not singling anyone out, but I'm pretty that sure such creatures exist. They spend a lot of time trying to untie the Gordian knot of why DirecTV made the deal when they really didn't need to and there's no benefit in it for them.



> I am, however, a longtime TiVo user and fan-boy who is familiar with the current state of TiVoHD and HR2x software, and the pros and cons of both. I'm also a grandfathered "lifetime" D*/TiVo subscriber, so I probably wouldn't even have to pay any add'l extra monthly charges for a new DirecTiVo. Knowing what I know today about what both platforms have to offer, if DirecTV offered me a TiVoHD with sat capability tomorrow, I wouldn't give up my HR20's.


I'm sure that most DTV subscribers will take the default DVR and think nothing more of it. Anything beyond that is pure speculation since we don't know the feature set or cost at this stage.


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## samo

nrc said:


> I'm sure that most DTV subscribers will take the default DVR and think nothing more of it. Anything beyond that is pure speculation since we don't know the feature set or cost at this stage.


Correct, but he said "TiVO HD with satellite capability". I'm with sluciani on this one - if new DirecTivo had exact same feature set as TiVo HD has today, I wouldn't trade HR2X for it even if there was no additional cost involved.


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## 20TIL6

samo said:


> if new DirecTivo had exact same feature set as TiVo HD has today, I wouldn't trade HR2X for it even if there was no additional cost involved.


Really? I really like Amazon, Netflix, TTG, YouTube, CinemaNow, the search I mentioned earlier..... and DLB and MRV (even though I understand that the HR2x are on track to get this).

The newest standalones have a pretty impressive feature set. But admittedly, they lack a big one, sat support.


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## joed32

20TIL6 said:


> Well, speaking of search, what TiVo has done with search is pretty cool. Again, I have S3 and HD units. Don't know if HR2x has anything like this.
> 
> But there is a new TiVo Search available on my boxes - it's still labeled beta - but I use it frequently. Anyway, I'll give you a real life example of how I used it the other night.
> 
> Wife comes home talking about the other night's episode of SouthPark that somebody at her office was talking about. We don't really watch that show much anymore, but the person said it was really funny. Something about the economy.
> 
> Pull up SouthPark in find shows (regular search), nothing that sounds like that episode is upcoming. But open up the new TiVo search and every SouthPark episode is listed, organized by season. There are 13 seasons of SouthPark, did not know that. This one was a current season, so I look into season 13. There it is. "Margaritaville".
> 
> TiVo Search lets me know all the ways I could get this episode. If it is being broadcast in the next two weeks, it indicates that. If it's available from download, like Amazon On Demand, it indicates that. It also gives me the option to create a wish list.
> 
> So it told me that this episode is not being broadcast within the next two weeks (that's what regular search indicated). It showed that I could download it for $1.99 from Amazon. That's great, but not worth 2 bucks to me. So I clicked on create a wish list, and this is pretty neat.
> 
> It automatically took the episode I had isolated and created the boolean (sp?) wish list request, and set to automatically record whenever it is broadcast. No spelling and multiple letter entry, just select and done. Keyword wish list - SouthPark * Margaritaville.
> 
> I was impressed.


"Wishlist" is the one thing that would tempt me to switch.


----------



## stevel

The DirecTV boxes can stream from Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, CBS, ABC, CNN and other sources now, though they need a PC to serve as intermediary. You can also watch recorded shows on your PC. I'm not sure what the state of Amazon Unbox is. though.

What they can't do at this time is allow you to save shows on a PC or burn to DVD.


----------



## 20TIL6

stevel said:


> The DirecTV boxes can stream from Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, CBS, ABC, CNN and other sources now, though they need a PC to serve as intermediary.


That's good to know. I had not seen any PR from Netflix or Hulu, or YouTube about this compatibility with DirecTV. On Netflix's website for example, DirecTV is not listed.

But good to know.


----------



## nrc

stevel said:


> The DirecTV boxes can stream from Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, CBS, ABC, CNN and other sources now, though they need a PC to serve as intermediary.


The notion of using a PC for internet video is quaint to most TiVo users at this stage. The integration and breadth of content options and that TiVo is providing these days is once again changing the way we watch TV. I'm not sure that old fashioned DVR users really get it at this point.


----------



## bigpuma

20TIL6 said:


> That's good to know. I had not seen any PR from Netflix or Hulu, or YouTube about this compatibility with DirecTV. On Netflix's website for example, DirecTV is not listed.
> 
> But good to know.


That's because you need to use Playon on your computer to be able to watch those things. Not a big deal but that is why DirecTV is not listed by Netflix.


----------



## shibby191

bigpuma said:


> That's because you need to use Playon on your computer to be able to watch those things. Not a big deal but that is why DirecTV is not listed by Netflix.


Yep, PlayOn. Amazon Unbox (I think it's called Amazon VOD now) also is supported and with the various plugins, pretty much any video that is streamed online via podcasts can be played on your DirecTV DVR (or Xbox, PS3 and soon Wii). So things like the Revision 3 programs or the TWiT network vidcasts are all available to stream.



nrc said:


> The notion of using a PC for internet video is quaint to most TiVo users at this stage. The integration and breadth of content options and that TiVo is providing these days is once again changing the way we watch TV. I'm not sure that old fashioned DVR users really get it at this point.


Perhaps. But just about everyone has a PC or Mac and it's pretty trivial to install one of these media programs and be streaming this stuff in minutes. Basically DirecTV has made their receivers fully DLNA compliant similar to the Xbox and PS3. While they lose certain things such as "built in" support for things like Netflix, what they gain is massive flexability to be able to work with just about any other DLNA device/server. Heck, the PS3 can see your DirecTV DVR recorded programs, just can't play them since Sony hasn't licensed the DirecTV DRM (but they could).

So they get most/all the online features of the Tivo and get a lot more user addable things at the expense of being built in. I guess which you like is up to you.


----------



## Cudahy

We spend a lot of time on the computer and Directv but still haven't heard of a good reason to connect the two. There are tons of movies on Directv and any downloadable movie will soon be on HBO.


----------



## sluciani

Cudahy said:


> We spend a lot of time on the computer and Directv but still haven't heard of a good reason to connect the two. There are tons of movies on Directv and any downloadable movie will soon be on HBO.


Thanks to working VOD, DirecTV has the technology is in place to add Netflix or any other third-party content provider, should they decide to offer it to their customers. For that reason, I'd be very surprised if a new DirecTiVo will be allowed to push Netflix to D* subscribers if there is no Netflix-D* deal in place beforehand.

As posted above, there is a work-around. You can deliver Netflix, Hulu etc. content to your HR2x via Playon running on your PC. Or you can watch Amazon movies, Hulu, etc., via TVersity running on your PC.

Instead of a direct Netflix or Amazon deal, it appears it may be Liberty's plan to have DirecTV market it's own video delivery service... at least for now. They recently renamed PPV to _DirecTV Cinema_, and they now list about 1000 _On Demand_ titles on direcTV.com, so they are slowly building up a library that includes 1080p content. /steve


----------



## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> Really? I really like Amazon, Netflix, TTG, YouTube, CinemaNow, the search I mentioned earlier..... and DLB and MRV (even though I understand that the HR2x are on track to get this).
> 
> The newest standalones have a pretty impressive feature set. But admittedly, they lack a big one, sat support.


why should I bother with something that is that limited? Have a Xbox 360 and a PS3 on the set that does it a lot better.

The new CE for the HR2X has the other functions and with direct2pc I can watch anything recorded on any of my Hr2x boxes from anywhere in the house or out on the patio with my laptop

On a side note with the current structure of bandwidth providers putting monthyl caps on their end users, those functions can turn out to be a dead horse


----------



## sluciani

sjberra said:


> On a side note with the current structure of bandwidth providers putting monthyl caps on their end users, those functions can turn out to be a dead horse


I'm also not a fan of the quaint "HD lite" you often get with these services.  /steve


----------



## sjberra

sluciani said:


> I'm also not a fan of the quaint "HD lite" you often get with these services.  /steve


can you be a little less cryptic - what services exactly? cable, netflix, Amazon, Hulu, which ones?


----------



## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> why should I bother with something that is that limited? Have a Xbox 360........On a side note with the current structure of bandwidth providers putting monthyl caps on their end users, those functions can turn out to be a dead horse


I don't find the S3 platform TiVo to be limiting at all. Well, with one exception, no satellite. But with Amazon, Netflix, Jaman, CinemaNow, and just announced Blockbuster....all feeding directly to the DVR (no PC required), I fail to see where I am limited as you say. Again, wish I could use DirecTV with the platform, but oh well...

I have an Xbox 360 and a PS3.

The 360 can stream Netflix and has a small library of downloadable content (nothing compared to Amazon, Jaman, CinemaNow). But hey, it's just me. I don't like watching movies against the background of a hair dryer blowing at full blast. The 360 is just too loud to use as a true media device IMO.

The PS3 could be a better media device, but no direct feed of Netflix and only a small library of download content via the Playstation store.

These are both great video game consoles with a bit of media capability. Both lack broadcast tuners of any sort, and of course no DVR.

If I found myself turning to these devices for content consumption, it would be an indication to me that my cable/sat/OTA/DVR device was lacking or limited.

And I am not scared of bandwidth caps or tiered ISP pricing. A larger, and much more rebellious army than us broadband TiVo users exists that will fight that battle. It will be much harder for ISPs to implement such a plan against the net neutrality advocates. And even if they were able to implement caps and tiers, that would just open up a market for uncapped and non-tiered ISPs to offer services. IMO, it won't happen.


----------



## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> I don't find the S3 platform TiVo to be limiting at all. Well, with one exception, no satellite. But with Amazon, Netflix, Jaman, CinemaNow, and just announced Blockbuster....all feeding directly to the DVR (no PC required), I fail to see where I am limited as you say. Again, wish I could use DirecTV with the platform, but oh well...
> 
> I have an Xbox 360 and a PS3.
> 
> The 360 can stream Netflix and has a small library of downloadable content (nothing compared to Amazon, Jaman, CinemaNow). But hey, it's just me. I don't like watching movies against the background of a hair dryer blowing at full blast. The 360 is just too loud to use as a true media device IMO.
> 
> The PS3 could be a better media device, but no direct feed of Netflix and only a small library of download content via the Playstation store.
> 
> These are both great video game consoles with a bit of media capability. Both lack broadcast tuners of any sort, and of course no DVR.
> 
> If I found myself turning to these devices for content consumption, it would be an indication to me that my cable/sat/OTA/DVR device was lacking or limited.
> 
> And I am not scared of bandwidth caps or tiered ISP pricing. A larger, and much more rebellious army than us broadband TiVo users exists that will fight that battle. It will be much harder for ISPs to implement such a plan against the net neutrality advocates. And even if they were able to implement caps and tiers, that would just open up a market for uncapped and non-tiered ISPs to offer services. IMO, it won't happen.


Been streaming netflix to the ps3 for awhile not to mention CBS, CNN, Hulu Youtube and ESPN, 3rd party app works fine, might want to stay up on technology and software. As fara as a noisie 360, you must have one of the older technology ones that still use the oversized power supply

Why would i want a broadcast tuner on the device? There are other units more suited for that technology. Specialization devices are a lot more advanced then multi-purpose devices.

/rofl how exactly are you going to "fight the battle"? If you have you have already lost, numerous providers already have the caps in place and are branching out. when are you goung to "start fighting them"? what larger army? When compared to the primary users of the net for video content download, your "larger army of tivo users" is less then a platoon. caps are here already and will branch out unfortunately


----------



## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> Been streaming netflix to the ps3 for awhile not to mention CBS, CNN, Hulu Youtube and ESPN, 3rd party app works fine, might want to stay up on technology and software.


Why taunt with a personal comment like that? I understand 3rd party apps can augment feature sets. My comments were based on out of the box, marketed features from Microsoft and Sony.



sjberra said:


> As fara as a noisie 360, you must have one of the older technology ones that still use the oversized power supply


Nope, it's not an old one. It's still loud. Works fine for action flicks with the sound up. Quiet scenes are impacted by the aforementioned hair dryer.



sjberra said:


> Why would i want a broadcast tuner on the device? There are other units more suited for that technology. Specialization devices are a lot more advanced then multi-purpose devices.


I agree. Specialized devices do perform particular functions better and can be more advanced in a certain area. Yet as evidenced by the media features put into video game consoles, and broadband capabilities being placed into DVRs and TVs and BluRay players, it seems that both consumers and home entertainment companies do have goals for multi-purpose devices. You might desire three or four different boxes, but I don't know if the overall consumer market desires that.



sjberra said:


> /rofl how exactly are you going to "fight the battle"? If you have you have already lost, numerous providers already have the caps in place and are branching out. when are you goung to "start fighting them"? what larger army? When compared to the primary users of the net for video content download, your "larger army of tivo users" is less then a platoon. caps are here already and will branch out unfortunately


Glad you enjoyed a chuckle. When you get off the floor and back in your seat, you might re-read my statements on caps and tiered pricing.

1. Where are the caps? I live in Houston. No caps with my provider, past or present. I had Comcast, now have AT&T DSL.

2. What army? Legit P2P, Legit content download/streaming companies, basically any provider of content that would, in effect, be competing for consumer dollars against the VOD services of the subscription TV provider (cable, sat). There is clear motive for net neutrality beyond the consumer.

Others involved? Our Congress, the FCC.

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/04/congressman-to/

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscent...s_to_push_for_net_neutrality_legislation.html

http://www.techspot.com/news/34273-bandwidth-cap-argument-to-be-settled-with-law.html

http://www.techspot.com/news/34302-time-warner-delays-bandwidth-cap-implementation.html

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/FCC-Comcast-Internet,news-2426.html

3. I never characterized broadband enabled TiVo users as being large. In fact, I think I implied that they were relatively small in number.


----------



## sjberra

1. the Jasper iteration of the XBOX is a lot more reliable and quieter - started trickling into the market place late december 2008.

2. as far as caps -

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86060/isps-push-for-data-caps-while-profits-soar-costs-decline/

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2345866,00.asp

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/02/AR2009050200123.html

From the article - comcast does have a national cap, AT&T is currently testing it out in various markets. Per cost usage is looming on the horizon, unfortunately.

Almost forgot this one

http://help.comcast.net/content/faq/Frequently-Asked-Questions-about-Excessive-Use#when

3. 3rd party enhancement for anything is valid as long as it is legal - again, why stick with a single all purpose unit with limited upgradeability and functionality

Anyway, done with ths arguement, the proof will show maybe sometime in 2010 for the new unit, so far nothing that is on the current run of non-directv units that MIGHT show up on the vaporware directivo unit is even remotely interesting, especially with the rumored extra reoccurring monthly cost for it.


----------



## shibby191

The thing with 3rd party enhancement is this:

If you are satisfied with the limited online features Tivo gives you out of the box then you're golden. But if you want more you don't have a whole lot of choice since Tivo is not DLNA compliant. So if you want more it's as simple as taking 2 minutes to install a program on your PC or Mac which suddenly opens the world of your PS3, Xbox or DirecTV DVR to hundreds if not thousands of options just not available on the Tivo. 

Again, it's about choice. If what Tivo gives you is enough for you, excellent. If not then perhaps some more flexibility using standards is your cup of tea.

As for bandwidth caps, within a year you won't be able to get away from them unless legislation/regulation removes them.


----------



## mp11

stevel said:


> The DirecTV boxes can stream from Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, CBS, ABC, CNN and other sources now, though they need a PC to serve as intermediary.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a case of "they can but they can't". Not without the help of a PC at least.  Hardly compares to a true TivoHD.
Click to expand...


----------



## Adam1115

mp11 said:


> stevel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a case of "they can but they can't". Not without the help of a PC at least.  Hardly compares to a true TivoHD.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd take the 'they can but they can't' directv offers over the TiVo HD, which just can't do most of those things...
Click to expand...


----------



## sjberra

mp11 said:


> stevel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a case of "they can but they can't". Not without the help of a PC at least.  Hardly compares to a true TivoHD.
> 
> 
> 
> It can never be a "true TivoHD" since that functionality is not avaiable on the current unit, nor do I suspect that it will be - why would directv cut into their own profits by offering the ability to rent and download pay per view features form a 3rd party company? would be very poor business sense on directv's part, unless a additional fee for the download is tacked on. Can get a lot more movies through directv's PPV service then what are available through Netflix - and you can get some of them in 1080P.
> 
> Prefer the greater flexibility of total home media center rather then the limited functionality of a single purpose box.
Click to expand...


----------



## SullyND

I think the last three posters need quoting lessons.

"Sounds like a case of "they can but they can't". Not without the help of a PC at least. Hardly compares to a true TivoHD."

Was said by mp11, not stevel. Because mp11 broke the quote of stevel (by having two


> functions in a row) the last two posters attribute the quote to stevel incorrectly.


----------



## 20TIL6

I have the feeling that if and whenever the new MPEG4 DirecTV/TiVo is released to market, and some of us choose it and happen to like the new device, there will still be some here that post reasons why we should not.

I sense a palpable aversion to its offering, and if not that, an aversion to its successful adoption.


----------



## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> I have the feeling that if and whenever the new MPEG4 DirecTV/TiVo is released to market, and some of us choose it and happen to like the new device, there will still be some here that post reasons why we should not.
> 
> I sense a palpable aversion to its offering, and if not that, an aversion to its successful adoption.


Have no aversion to it being offered, choice is good. Just going to be interested to see what actually shows up, what year it shows up and how much additional it will cost the end user over the current cost.

Don't really belive it will offer everything that the current standalone does for the simple reason some of the functions are a competitors and do not really see Directv offering a combined way of getting to comething that could remove income from their balance sheet.


----------



## CuriousMark

sjberra said:


> Don't really believe it will offer everything that the current standalone does for the simple reason some of the functions are a competitors and do not really see DirecTV offering a combined way of getting to something that could remove income from their balance sheet.


I see your point. What value you would assign to the balance sheet effect of staying ahead of the FCC. Is there any value to providing an offering that gives all the benefits to the consumer of separable security, without actually providing separable security? If consumers have a choice of navigation devices, under the DTV umbrella, will FCC leave them alone and not force cablecard, or something similar down their throats? If so, how would you see a TiVo box fitting into that scenario?

Is such thinking just a pipe dream?


----------



## sjberra

CuriousMark said:


> I see your point. What value you would assign to the balance sheet effect of staying ahead of the FCC. Is there any value to providing an offering that gives all the benefits to the consumer of separable security, without actually providing separable security? If consumers have a choice of navigation devices, under the DTV umbrella, will FCC leave them alone and not force cablecard, or something similar down their throats? If so, how would you see a TiVo box fitting into that scenario?
> 
> Is such thinking just a pipe dream?


Yes


----------



## CuriousMark

sjberra said:


> Yes


Why?


----------



## 20TIL6

The mere talk of DirecTV offering TiVo again was once considered a pipe dream by some folks here.


----------



## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> The mere talk of DirecTV offering TiVo again was once considered a pipe dream by some folks here.


Until it hits the streets in quantity - it still is.

Like I saif, offer it, don;t care - it has nothing that I don't already have - including DLB. The majiority of it is fluff anyway


----------



## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> Until it hits the streets in quantity - it still is.
> 
> Like I saif, offer it, don;t care - it has nothing that I don't already have - including DLB. The majiority of it is fluff anyway


Thanks for coming through with an expected response.


----------



## dswallow

sjberra said:


> Until it hits the streets in quantity - it still is.
> 
> Like I saif, offer it, don;t care - it has nothing that I don't already have - including DLB. The majiority of it is fluff anyway


You mean fulff.


----------



## justbrett

Man oh man I hope DTV offers a new TiVo receiver again. My parents have one of the old TiVo receivers, and they had a techie friend mod it with a bigger hard drive, and that thing slaps the DTV receivers silly. Another added benefit (and this may be from the 'modding' i dont know) is that PPV movies have no expiration date, which is nice. DTV just re-branded their PPV system as "DirecTV Cinema" and is offering these all in 1080p; I would love it if there was a TiVo system that I could have that would allow me to keep movings purchased this way forever...

Anyway here's a link to the ad for the new DirecTV Cinema offerings : displacedbrett.wordpress.com/2009/05/27/jet-stream. On a side note, I really like the song they have in the commercial - it's called "Electromagnetic Superstar" by the band Jet Stream.


----------



## litzdog911

justbrett said:


> Man oh man I hope DTV offers a new TiVo receiver again. My parents have one of the old TiVo receivers, and they had a techie friend mod it with a bigger hard drive, and that thing slaps the DTV receivers silly. Another added benefit (and this may be from the 'modding' i dont know) is that PPV movies have no expiration date, which is nice. DTV just re-branded their PPV system as "DirecTV Cinema" and is offering these all in 1080p; I would love it if there was a TiVo system that I could have that would allow me to keep movings purchased this way forever...
> 
> ....


If you've followed this thread you know that the new DirecTV/Tivo HD DVR should arrive in early 2010. But don't expect it to have unlimited PPV viewing. That change was driven by the Hollywood movie industry, not DirecTV or other PPV providers. The current DVRs, including Tivo-based DVRs, all have these restrictions.


----------



## 20TIL6

litzdog911 said:


> If you've followed this thread you know that the new DirecTV/Tivo HD DVR should arrive in early 2010. But don't expect it to have unlimited PPV viewing. That change was driven by the Hollywood movie industry, not DirecTV or other PPV providers. The current DVRs, including Tivo-based DVRs, all have these restrictions.


Yeah, the good ole days of DirecTV PPV rented onto a DirecTV/TiVo, and the content just staying on the hard drive, those days are gone.

One small clarification though. On the new TiVo standalones, like the S3 and HD, it's true that rental content (like from Amazon) does expire off the machine. But purchased content does not expire (of course). A neat deal with Amazon is that they keep a record of your digital purchases. So you could buy content, download, watch, and then delete. If you wanted to watch that content again, you just go to Amazon's site and freely re-download your previously purchased content to your TiVo.

And I mention this primarily because every once in a while a raft of digital movie content will go on sale. So whereas a rental might cost $3-$5, you might be able to purchase it on sale for $7-$9. So it's almost like those good ole DirecTV PPV days.

I would be shocked if any of this capability came to the new HD DirecTV/TiVo due out next year.


----------



## samo

20TIL6 said:


> And I mention this primarily because every once in a while a raft of digital movie content will go on sale. So whereas a rental might cost $3-$5, you might be able to purchase it on sale for $7-$9. So it's almost like those good ole DirecTV PPV days.
> 
> I would be shocked if any of this capability came to the new HD DirecTV/TiVo due out next year.


I see a very little benefit in purchasing movies over renting. True, you have to watch your PPV in 24 hours and it could be inconvenient, but besides that the benefit of "archiving" PPV is very limited. You are not likely to watch PPV movie again in a next few months (with a trash they produce, I can't recall the movie made in last 3-4 years that I watched second time) and by that time it will be on HBO or Showtime and you can record it again and keep forever if you wish.


----------



## 20TIL6

samo said:


> I see a very little benefit in purchasing movies over renting. True, you have to watch your PPV in 24 hours and it could be inconvenient, but besides that the benefit of "archiving" PPV is very limited. You are not likely to watch PPV movie again in a next few months (with a trash they produce, I can't recall the movie made in last 3-4 years that I watched second time) and by that time it will be on HBO or Showtime and you can record it again and keep forever if you wish.


Good point.


----------



## litzdog911

I would never trust my DVR's hard drive with "purchased" movies, unless I could easily make a back up or burn to my own DVD. I'll stick with NetFlix or buy the DVDs.


----------



## Matt L

The $5.99 price point for a D 24 hour movie is just too high. Sure it's nice that it's 1080p/24 but for the price of 3 movies i get unlimited 2 at a time Blu ray for Netflix, and streaming to boot.

I just got |The Reader on Blu for Netflix and it's also sitting as pushed content on my HR23-700, can't say I see much difference in quality, D may be a touch softer, but not enough to notice,


----------



## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> Thanks for coming through with an expected response.


Glad I could brighten someone's day.

Bottom line is - it is the truth.

1. can you get one today? - nope, nothing exists at the moment 
2. Is there a set release date? - nope, still sometime in 2010

All answered no, therefore that places it in the "pipe dream", vaporware or blue smoke and mirrors classification. When it hits the streets in quantity, then it is valid and real, until then - vaporware


----------



## sjberra

samo said:


> I see a very little benefit in purchasing movies over renting. True, you have to watch your PPV in 24 hours and it could be inconvenient, but besides that the benefit of "archiving" PPV is very limited. You are not likely to watch PPV movie again in a next few months (with a trash they produce, I can't recall the movie made in last 3-4 years that I watched second time) and by that time it will be on HBO or Showtime and you can record it again and keep forever if you wish.


2 vehicles with installed entertainment centers in the back area and 3 sub 12 year old kids. Hard to be able to watch PPV movies.


----------



## nrc

The latest from TiVo during their Q1 conference call is "not likely to rollout until early next year." Note that this doesn't rule out earlier and doesn't give any reason to expect that it may be later.

Answering a question about availability and when DTV will begin marketing, Tom Rogers replies:



> Well, when I say available, I mean available to consumers and when it's available to consumers their marketing obligations are part of that. The timeframe there is somewhat dependent on what the ultimate feature collection is that gets delivered so they're, DIRECTV is pointed to a somewhat a near term timeframe. We've pointed to that timeframe in early next year and the marketing though, will commence as soon as it is available to the public.


There's an implication there that DirecTV is dictating a certain release schedule and not, as some here like to claim, that there has necessarily been a delay because of TiVo.


----------



## justbrett

Yeah, but do you think they've upped the anti-modding protections on the new TiVo? I know the modded hard drive plus PPV restrictions that my parents had done on their TiVo is a pretty common thing...I gotta believe that techie guys could figure out ways around the restrictions on the new TiVo, too.


----------



## sluciani

nrc said:


> [...]There's an implication there that DirecTV is dictating a certain release schedule and not, as some here like to claim, that there has necessarily been a delay because of TiVo.


How can DirecTV's product marketing be contributing to the delay of a product who's features are unknown at this time?



> Well, when I say available, I mean available to consumers and when it's available to consumers their marketing obligations are part of that. The timeframe there is somewhat dependent on what the ultimate feature collection is that gets delivered so they're, DIRECTV is pointed to a somewhat a near term timeframe. We've pointed to that timeframe in early next year and the marketing though, will commence as soon as it is available to the public.


I don't know about others, but _here's how I interpret those remarks_:

DirecTV is obligated to market the product once it's available to consumers. _Check._
The marketing timing depends on knowing what the final feature set will be. _Check._ 
DirecTV has their sights set on something "near term". Our sights are set on early next year. _We're writing the software, so it will be done according to our timetable, not DirecTV's._ 
Once we make the product available, DirecTV's marketing can commence. _After that, any further delays will be DirecTV's._


----------



## pretzelbag

sluciani said:


> How can DirecTV's product marketing be contributing to the delay of a product who's features are unknown at this time?


I doubt the features are unknown to DirecTV at this time -- they are to us, of course, but I find it hard to believe that DirecTV's product marketing team hasn't nailed down the major features.

As much as this is a TiVo product, DirecTV product management surely sets the development agenda on an equal footing to their TiVo counterparts. DirecTV wouldn't enter into any agreement with TiVo if they didn't get that control...

-pretzelbag.


----------



## nrc

sluciani said:


> How can DirecTV's product marketing be contributing to the delay of a product who's features are unknown at this time?


Nobody said that. The comment implies that they're targeting a release timeframe that has been specified by DirecTV.


----------



## sjberra

justbrett said:


> Yeah, but do you think they've upped the anti-modding protections on the new TiVo? I know the modded hard drive plus PPV restrictions that my parents had done on their TiVo is a pretty common thing...I gotta believe that techie guys could figure out ways around the restrictions on the new TiVo, too.


Suspect that you can pretty well be assured that there will be little ability to "mod" the new tivo, they already have it in their line of units and would suspect that it will be a project design requirement for the upcoming ones.


----------



## goony

sjberra said:


> Glad I could brighten someone's day.
> 
> Bottom line is - it is the truth.
> 
> 1. can you get one today? - nope, nothing exists at the moment
> 2. Is there a set release date? - nope, still sometime in 2010
> 
> All answered no, therefore that places it in the "pipe dream", vaporware or blue smoke and mirrors classification. When it hits the streets in quantity, then it is valid and real, until then - vaporware


Off topic: I find it funny how politicians can promise the moon and it's lapped up by their advocates as 100% gonna happen, take-it-to-the-bank, "good as gold", etc.

Relatively speaking... I believe Tivo Inc./DirecTV as more likely to deliver on a promise than I do any political figure.


----------



## sjberra

goony said:


> Off topic: I find it funny how politicians can promise the moon and it's lapped up by their advocates as 100% gonna happen, take-it-to-the-bank, "good as gold", etc.
> 
> Relatively speaking... I believe Tivo Inc./DirecTV as more likely to deliver on a promise than I do any political figure.


Don't believe politicians either, they are in it for their own personal gain only and do not care about anything or anybody else. Sometimes the general public gets lucky and the politician does jail time.

as with politicians promises, the new directvio is pure vaporware until it is available to the general public in sufficient quantity so tht those that are willing to pay the upgrade costs can get them. In industry a lot of things are announced and promised, but never see the light of day


----------



## Scopeman

litzdog911 said:


> I would never trust my DVR's hard drive with "purchased" movies, unless I could easily make a back up or burn to my own DVD. I'll stick with NetFlix or buy the DVDs.


Purchased from Amazon means you do not have to keep a backup - you can download a new copy as needed.

Buying movies from Amazon is useful in some instances. When they are on sale (if cheap enough, like $7 compared to a $4 rental) I purchase movies for my kids to watch. This way they can watch and delete and I know that when they want to watch it again I can re-download without any further fees.

Not the most common usage model, but it shows that there are reasons to purchase vs rent.

Normally, however, we rent via the most convenient source (XBox 360, AppleTV/iTunes, S3 Tivo, etc).

Currently stuck on Time Warner with S3 Tivos and Cablecards/Tuning Adapter - and anxiously waiting for new HD DirecTivo features to be announced before jumping back to DirecTV.


----------



## Scopeman

sjberra said:


> Don't believe politicians either, they are in it for their own personal gain only and do not care about anything or anybody else.



As opposed to small business owners, who are in it for the joy of long hours?
Or the guy who mows my yard, who does it for the scent of grass and not the money he gets paid?
Or my plumber, who must have a fecal fetish, because clearly he is not in it for his personal gain?

I love it when folks suggest that politicians are not allowed to have the same motivations that everyone else has when they go to work in the morning. That view of how politicians "should be" comes from some fairy-tale world, not the real world.

The gap between expectations and reality is not the politicians fault; it is the publics' fault. Reasonable expectations would mean politicians could stop promising unicorns and rainbows as a necessary part of the process.

Sadly, however, candidates who speak truth don't get elected, and therefore the *VOTERS* select the politicians who have to pretend to be altruistic, even though they are just looking for a paying job like the rest of us.


----------



## sjberra

Forget it, politics should not be here, this isn't a newpaper where they are trying to look less crooked


----------



## BOBCAT

This thread has really gotten off topic.


----------



## restino

Anyone know anything about the type, size of hard drive or features on the new tivo?

Will the software be located on the hard drive like tivos or in the ram like directv units?


----------



## innocentfreak

no details are known about the new Directivo at all.


----------



## sjberra

restino said:


> Anyone know anything about the type, size of hard drive or features on the new tivo?
> 
> Will the software be located on the hard drive like tivos or in the ram like directv units?


As mentioned no details at all at the moment, would suspect that the new software will be placed in a eeprom then on the drive since the general idea is it will be loaded to current Directv hardware. Suspect that directv wants to get away from the "end user" hacks the same way they did on their HR2X units


----------



## restino

I would think that with all the insiders here people would know a few details.

Hard drive size is prob going to be 500GB.

What type of equipment will they use? Same setup as HR23 maybe?

It will probably be a lease and no straight out purchase.

Will they expand to 4 tuners?

Same Tivo style software as before I hope or lots of new influence from D* ?

Well, just some guesses anyway.


----------



## litzdog911

Pure speculation, restino. We've seen no specific details.


----------



## stevel

As far as I know, there are no "insiders" here - just some long-time users/observers.


----------



## restino

Speculation yes for sure.

Come on, you guys know everything...

Can you guess what color it would be at least?


----------



## stevel

Black or silver


----------



## litzdog911

I'm leaning towards dark grey


----------



## sjberra

litzdog911 said:


> I'm leaning towards dark grey


neon blue with pink, orange and purple fuzzy spots


----------



## restino

I dream of...

dark grey with dark bronzish color trim

1TB Hard Drive

open eSata ports for any hard drive

4 turners

very soft lights on front that can be enabled on/off in various ways

tivo peanut style remote control

and lots of special tivo codes to make it do new stuff as a surprise.


----------



## SullyND

restino said:


> 4 turners


Ike? Tina? Ted? Who's #4?


----------



## stevel

SullyND said:


> Ike? Tina? Ted? Who's #4?


Curtis?


----------



## temp357

stevel said:


> As far as I know, there are no "insiders" here - just some long-time users/observers.


What about Earl?


----------



## innocentfreak

Earl left. If he posts here anymore it is under another name. He went to work for DTV so if he posts at all it is on dbstalk.com and also under another name since he would be too well known under his old name.


----------



## stevel

Also, just to be clear, when Earl was posting here he did not yet work for DirecTV, though he obviously had some contacts in the company.


----------



## plazman30

They seriously hemmed hand hawed and acted like there in no release date of any kind. They said it was announced and they couldn't tell me any more.

When I asked about it after the announcement, I was told Q3-Q4 of 2009. Now they won't even commit to that!

Andy


----------



## stevel

When you call DirecTV, you are talking to service agents that do not have access to release schedules and the like. All they can tell you is what is in press releases.


----------



## shibby191

And you're asking CSRs who would have no clue. Heck, the only information anyone has is what Tivo has said and as noted above they have said they hope to have it out in 2010. That could mean it won't be out in 2010 at all. Nobody knows. I've said for a long time now, if you're "holding out" for a new DirecTivo you're going to be waiting for a long, long time. Besides it's still just vaporware. Let's see if they show anything at CES in January. If they don't and are still mum then be very worried if it will come at all.


----------



## 20TIL6

I have TiVo today. Until the new DirecTV/TiVo rolls out, it's DirecTV's loss, not mine. I'm not holding out for TiVo, I'm holding out on becoming a DirecTV customer again. That's the way I see it.


----------



## Scooter

I used to get excited about the thought of a new TiVo powered Directv box. Quite honestly, I don't care anymore. My HR2X boxes work just fine. They should have done this long ago. I think it's too late now.


----------



## innocentfreak

20TIL6 said:


> I have TiVo today. Until the new DirecTV/TiVo rolls out, it's DirecTV's loss, not mine. I'm not holding out for TiVo, I'm holding out on becoming a DirecTV customer again. That's the way I see it.


Same here since I switched to Fios. Even browsing the CE section for the Directv DVR doesn't excite me since still no fix for the 50 series link limit. Until then I don't care what Directv does with their DVRs.


----------



## fasTLane

Bring on the Tivo. You can keep your house box.


----------



## bigpuma

innocentfreak said:


> Same here since I switched to Fios. Even browsing the CE section for the Directv DVR doesn't excite me since still no fix for the 50 series link limit. Until then I don't care what Directv does with their DVRs.


Sure there is a fix. 2 DVRs.


----------



## Matt L

Scooter said:


> I used to get excited about the thought of a new TiVo powered Directv box. Quite honestly, I don't care anymore. My HR2X boxes work just fine. They should have done this long ago. I think it's too late now.


Gotta say the same. I was really bent out of shape over loosing my TiVo, but 2 months in and I really don't care. At this point I will not spend $$$ to get one. The delays and such have cost them a customer, and I'd lay odds more than one. There would have to be some killer apps to get me to go back to TiVo. The CE has all the functionality I need, and I have 3 HR2x networked so I have 150 season passes available to me, the most I had on any of my TiVos was 64. The HR2x's networking is the killer app as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## innocentfreak

bigpuma said:


> Sure there is a fix. 2 DVRs.


Which in my case would be 6 DTV Dvrs to one Tivo since this last season we hit 260 season passes on the main Directivo. I am currently at 162 season passes and there isn't much on right now.

That would be $600 upfront assuming each DVR costs $100 + $25 a month in receiver fees or I can buy one lifetime Tivo HD + 1TB upgrade drive for $600 and rent a cable card for $3.99 a month, not to mention the fact my Fios bundle which includes internet, phone, and every channel is cheaper than my Directv bill which doesn't even include HD. Guess which choice I made?


----------



## bigpuma

innocentfreak said:


> Which in my case would be 6 DTV Dvrs to one Tivo since this last season we hit 260 season passes on the main Directivo. I am currently at 162 season passes and there isn't much on right now.
> 
> That would be $600 upfront assuming each DVR costs $100 + $25 a month in receiver fees or I can buy one lifetime Tivo HD + 1TB upgrade drive for $600 and rent a cable card for $3.99 a month, not to mention the fact my Fios bundle which includes internet, phone, and every channel is cheaper than my Directv bill which doesn't even include HD. Guess which choice I made?


No question the series link limit is a problem for some customers. DirecTV decided to trade # of series links for speed. For me they made the right choice as I don't need more 50 per DVR and I love the speed. I tweek my prioritizer all the time on my HR2x DVRs whereas with the older HR10 I rarely looked at it since it would literally take 5 minutes to make changes.

Now with MRV the limit is really meaningless to me as I can have up to 100 but even before MRV when I did hit the 50 limit I could easily go into the prioritizer and clear out old shows or shows I no longer watch. For you that obviously wouldn't work but I am guessing you are in a small minority with that number of SPs.


----------



## innocentfreak

Oh I know I am in the minority when it comes to the number of season passes. I just have issues with the fact the only way around it is to buy more leased receivers. It also doesn't help that this was supposed to replace the Tivo but can't even do what the Tivo can. 

As far as speed I have never had issues with the speed of Tivo so I don't get the big deal about the speed of the DTV DVR. Yeah the prioritizer of the DTV DVR may be faster but I don't go in the season pass manager everyday so it is easy to go in when I know I won't need to use the Tivo for a few minutes. Also there is the whole issue with the DTV DVR having the to do list in memory so everytime you lose power or have to reboot you have to wait for the DVR to rebuild the to do list.

I can do the same on the Tivo HD except I am not limited to the number of shows which also means I don't have to clear out the series link every time a show goes off the air. I may be in the minority when it comes to the high number but even my parents have 65 shows or so on each of their Directivos which would mean two DVRS to one Directivo. It also means two series link to manage versus one. It also means two receiver fees versus one.


----------



## shibby191

innocentfreak said:


> Which in my case would be 6 DTV Dvrs to one Tivo since this last season we hit 260 season passes on the main Directivo. I am currently at 162 season passes and there isn't much on right now.
> 
> That would be $600 upfront assuming each DVR costs $100 + $25 a month in receiver fees or I can buy one lifetime Tivo HD + 1TB upgrade drive for $600 and rent a cable card for $3.99 a month, not to mention the fact my Fios bundle which includes internet, phone, and every channel is cheaper than my Directv bill which doesn't even include HD. Guess which choice I made?


Yep, you made the right choice for you. But you are the rare case where 50 isn't enough. Heck, we only have 30 and we don't have enough time to watch what that records. 

The common thought on the 50 limit is for performance reasons. I remember on every DirecTivo I had once you got above about 40 or so season passes and wishlists it would slow down to a crawl to do things (perhaps this isn't a problem on the stand along Tivo's). First thing my wife commented when we got our first HR20 was how fast it was compared to the Tivo's. Over time we ended up replacing all the Tivo's in the house. Big bonus to 2 DVRs is 4 tuners. Having 4 tuners is a must as we often have triple and quad conflicts in the fall. Side effect is we get 100 series links should we need them.

But good for you there is a choice.

By the way, I wouldn't expect the upcoming whole home DVR from DirecTV to have a limit of 50.  So perhaps that limit will be lifted for you in a year or less.


----------



## innocentfreak

shibby191 said:


> Yep, you made the right choice for you. But you are the rare case where 50 isn't enough. Heck, we only have 30 and we don't have enough time to watch what that records.


This would be why I upgraded the drives and I am just now getting around to watching some of the shows from this season. I really don't think I am that rare as far as going above 50. I think most people just have multiple DVRs so they are used to spreading them out over multiple boxes. Everyone I know who has a DVR has more than 50 shows.



shibby191 said:


> The common thought on the 50 limit is for performance reasons. I remember on every DirecTivo I had once you got above about 40 or so season passes and wishlists it would slow down to a crawl to do things (perhaps this isn't a problem on the stand along Tivo's). First thing my wife commented when we got our first HR20 was how fast it was compared to the Tivo's. Over time we ended up replacing all the Tivo's in the house. Big bonus to 2 DVRs is 4 tuners. Having 4 tuners is a must as we often have triple and quad conflicts in the fall. Side effect is we get 100 series links should we need them.


I have Directivos still and they don't crawl at all with 200+ season passes. I really think most people who complain about the speed have other issues with the Directivos. I know my mother's Directivo was really slow and a couple months later the drive failed. She only had 50 or so shows on that box since it wasn't her primary box. I even find the Directivos faster than the Tivo HDs I have. I have never had only one DVR due to conflicts so I completely understand the need for more tuners.



shibby191 said:


> But good for you there is a choice.
> 
> By the way, I wouldn't expect the upcoming whole home DVR from DirecTV to have a limit of 50.  So perhaps that limit will be lifted for you in a year or less.


I agree. I am glad I have the choice since if I didn't I would have long abandoned DVRs and found another way for getting the content although it may not have been as legal.

The problem is at this point I have already switched to Fios and for me to come back to Directv it would require a lot. My Directv bill is $109 for the top package, no HD, and no DVR fee since I am grandfathered in before you add taxes and receivers. Fios is 129.99 a month before taxes for internet 20/5, phone with unlimited long distance, and every channel including HD. Cable cards are $3.99 versus a $5 receiver fee.


----------



## bengalfreak

The issue about the slow season pass list on DirecTivos was resolved several software releases ago.


----------



## 20TIL6

innocentfreak said:


> The problem is at this point I have already switched to Fios and for me to come back to Directv it would require a lot. My Directv bill is $109 for the top package, no HD, and no DVR fee since I am grandfathered in before you add taxes and receivers. Fios is 129.99 a month before taxes for internet 20/5, phone with unlimited long distance, and every channel including HD. Cable cards are $3.99 versus a $5 receiver fee.


I'm waiting on DirecTV to offer TiVo again, but really, if FiOS was offered in my area.....I'd be tickled.


----------



## Citivas

Scooter said:


> I used to get excited about the thought of a new TiVo powered Directv box. Quite honestly, I don't care anymore. My HR2X boxes work just fine. They should have done this long ago. I think it's too late now.


Ditto.

I held out for a long time with an HR20 upstairs but my 10-250 for our main TV. For the first 6 months the HR20 SUCKED worse than any consumer electronics device I have ever owned. It was would have been generous to call it a beta box -- even alpha was a stretch. It crashed daily, I had about a 60% chance of my program recording, and if it did a decent change it would record nothing.

But they kept improving the software and after a while it was minimally tolerable. Now its even decent and crashes less than my Tivo used to, and I haven't had any problems with missed recordings. It still is a bummer to not have dual buffer and it still has poor logic about skipping an entire show if the previous show goes a minute over (and the second tuner is doing another show). But these aren't dealbreakers. On the plus side it is WAY faster in the menus and season passes, etc. And they finally have a "channels I receive" view that really works and makes sense. And I can get 1080p downloads. Etc.

I would still consider a DirecTV TiVo box if the specs matched or beat the DirecTV HD unit and I paid no monthly premium. Or I would even consider as premium if they offered the stuff the stand-alone HD Tivo's do, like Netflix and the ability to extend rather than replace with extra HD's. But otherwise I've moved on...


----------



## stevel

Dual buffer and MRV should be coming to the national release REAL soon now.


----------



## litzdog911

Looks like Dual Buffers (DoublePlay) will launch before MultiRoom Viewing.


----------



## cowboys2002

SullyND said:


> Ike? Tina? Ted? Who's #4?


me! (my last name)


----------



## bengalfreak

stevel said:


> Dual buffer and MRV should be coming to the national release REAL soon now.


Too bad its not possible to replace my DTivos with new DirecTV boxes without having to sign a new 2 year contract or I would give it serious consideration.


----------



## Matt L

bengalfreak said:


> Too bad its not possible to replace my DTivos with new DirecTV boxes without having to sign a new 2 year contract or I would give it serious consideration.


You can. They will swap out an HR10-250 for the new equipment and install a new dish for free. Also you can buy Hr20 receivers on ebay that are owned not leased, and add them to your account with out commitment. I picked up 3 that way over the last few months. Ranged for $55-$140 for the ones I bought.

As I posted in another thread, I'm sorry i waited so long. Love all the great HD and all the goodies you get with CE.


----------



## samo

You can buy HR22 from Costco for $170. I'm not sure if you have to sign up for 2 years or not.


----------



## sjberra

samo said:


> You can buy HR22 from Costco for $170. I'm not sure if you have to sign up for 2 years or not.


not bought at costco, still a leased unit, and yes in 99.9 percent of the case it is a 2 yr commitment


----------



## shibby191

If you're going to stay with DirecTV anyway why worry about the 2 year commitment? I never do. But if you think you might leave then I can see the concern.


----------



## samo

sjberra said:


> not bought at costco, still a leased unit, and yes in 99.9 percent of the case it is a 2 yr commitment


And i do not see much difference between "bought" and "leased". According to Matt L he was able to buy HR20 on e-bay for $55. How much of the residual value will be on your DVR couple of years from now even if you buy it? If you drop DirecTV your DVR is useless to you and has almost no re-sale value anyhow.


----------



## sjberra

samo said:


> And i do not see much difference between "bought" and "leased". According to Matt L he was able to buy HR20 on e-bay for $55. How much of the residual value will be on your DVR couple of years from now even if you buy it? If you drop DirecTV your DVR is useless to you and has almost no re-sale value anyhow.


bottom line, units obtained through costco, best buy, joe's bait, tackle and satilite tv dealers are not bought units (aka owned) they are leased units, people tend to assume since they pay 150-200 they own them, which they do not.

as far as ebay, long as the person verifies that unit is truely avialable for sale by the reviever id and are aware that they will more then likely need to pay Directv 20 for a access card.

most of the hr2x series I see are 100+, only ones below 100 are hr10's.


----------



## samo

sjberra said:


> bottom line, units obtained through costco, best buy, joe's bait, tackle and satilite tv dealers are not bought units (aka owned) they are leased units, people tend to assume since they pay 150-200 they own them, which they do not.
> 
> as far as ebay, long as the person verifies that unit is truely avialable for sale by the reviever id and are aware that they will more then likely need to pay Directv 20 for a access card.
> 
> most of the hr2x series I see are 100+, only ones below 100 are hr10's.


Let me clarify the reasoning for leasing. Leased HR22-HR23 can be "purchased" for under $200. Cheapest HR21 PRO (only model that is not leased and has the same size hard drive) from reputable dealer is $400. 
Monthly cost is the same. You pay penalty if you do not return leased unit or you pay extra $200 upfront for the non-leased unit. Makes no sense to buy for me.


----------



## Matt L

I have no contract and choose to keep it that way. I can walk away at any time easily.

If you are a smart ebayer there are deals to be had. The HR20's I got normally sell in the $150-$200 range, but ofttimes people put them in the wrong category, and they are missed by most. ANY leased receiver will incur a 2 year commitment, regardless of where purchased. If shopping on ebay always get the RID# and call D and ask if it is leased or owned, if it is owned it stays that way on your account.

And, if you choose to leave D, you can sell them, they are yours to do wiht as yu please. If it's leased and you pay $200+ when you quit D they want them sent to them and none of that money is returned to you. Fact is I see these owned boxes as having a potentially high resale value for the time being.


----------



## sjberra

samo said:


> Let me clarify the reasoning for leasing. Leased HR22-HR23 can be "purchased" for under $200. Cheapest HR21 PRO (only model that is not leased and has the same size hard drive) from reputable dealer is $400.
> Monthly cost is the same. You pay penalty if you do not return leased unit or you pay extra $200 upfront for the non-leased unit. Makes no sense to buy for me.


Makes sense here - no contract extension with purchased equipment.

I am well aware of the true purchased unit, the thing I am trying to point out is the FUD that is put forth sometimes when people assume that the 199 they are paying for a unit at bestbuy, costco, or any other place is a lease acquistion cost and not a purchase, they do not own the unit like they assume, that is the main issue here.

BTW you can find HR21-Pro's for a little over 200 if you look around. Never saw anything referencing your comment of "you pay extra $200 upfront for the non-leased unit" not even the people I have dealt with in the access card department has heard of it, the normal report non-returned unit cost has been stated at 400 on the various forums


----------



## samo

You can always find bargains and/or sell for more if you are good at that. People make living buying low and selling high. I'm sure that Matt L done very well with his approach on e-bay and I'm sure that some people bought HR21 PRO for less than $400. I'm also sure that a lot of people, myself included, are not that good at bargain hunting nor want to be bothered with re-selling used hardware on e-bay. For me the choice for the third HR22 I got was either leased from Costco for $170 or purchased from dishdepot.com at $400.
For me 2 year contract was not a problem because I just extended it a month or so before to get my second HR22 for free from DirecTV. And actually because I need programming that only DirecTV has, I don't see myself quiting DirecTV any time soon. But what works for me may not work for another guy, the options are available as other posters mentioned.


----------



## SgtClueLs

This is great news. I know the initial release will be very costly (And maybe prohibitive for me for a few months) but I will be going back to DirecTiVo. Ahh the Cadillac of DVRs.


----------



## cthomp21

So, I couldn't hold out on upgrading to HD any longer and did the "Free HD Swap" to replace a couple of HR10's on my account with a pair of HR22's. I figured I'd have to upgrade my dish anyways when the new HD Directivo comes out. Worse case scenario would be swapping the HR22's out for some SD Directivo's (the HR10 have been relocated elsewhere in the house).

Some thoughts on my experience over the past few weeks with the HR22's:


Slow - They are much slower than any of my Directivo's when navigating around. One of them is extraordinarily slow (my wife is constantly complaining and yelling at the new box)
Interface - The interface, while nowhere near intuitive as a Tivo, is acceptable. I wish it had more options to customize it more to my liking (NP list especially)
Remote - The remote is a bit too complicated (guess I'm having peanut withdrawal) although its RF and extra features are useful
Picture Quality - The HD material looks fantastic.
Recording - I just can't understand the logic here. I'm getting repeats when setting to first run only. I haven't been able to record a single White Sox game when setting up an autorecord wishlist even when telling it to record practically everything White Sox related. I don't like the series links being tied to a single channel. The 50 series links limit will approach awfully quickly (especially to get it to record the programs I want).
MRV - No multi room viewing (yet). I can't wait for this feature to come out. I didn't realize how much I used it in the past with our SD Directivos.
DLB - No dual live buffer (yet) - Double Play is also supposed to be out soon. Hurry up already!!!
MediaShare - This is a great feature. I'm using Tversity and can view anything on my computer. I like that it's streaming (unlike Tivoserver). But, it can sometimes stutter. It also lacks the ability to RW or FF. You can only pause/play. I'm looking forward to Mediashare improvements and will maybe try the Play On Software.

To sum up, HD is great but the interface is slow with some missing features (which should hopefully show up soon) and is nowhere near as intuitive as Tivo. I'm really, really looking forward to the new HD Directivo and will probably get a pair of them to replace my HR10s when they come out. That is, if they ever show up....


----------



## stevel

Speed of new DVRs is always an issue as there is background processing going on. Also, I know that some work is being done to speed up the interface - it should come out soon.


----------



## mp11

20TIL6 said:


> I have TiVo today. Until the new DirecTV/TiVo rolls out, it's DirecTV's loss, not mine. I'm not holding out for TiVo, I'm holding out on becoming a DirecTV customer again. That's the way I see it.


I agree. Except I really dont see myself going back to Directv. Things will have to take a very bad turn with Charter cable. I'm happier than I ever thought I'd be with cable. Excellent picture quality, my locals in HD(which Directv couldnt supply), and a full blown Tivo...not the watered down variety...life is good.


----------



## Rowsdower

I wish that DirecTV would provide _some_ sort of concrete information on the project's status (beyond "it's delayed"). I mean, it isn't even clear exactly what this box is going to be.

My family is tired of waiting (especially as the number of MPEG-2 HD channels continues to dwindle), and we're tempted to purchase some standalone TiVo HD boxes and switch back to cable. We've subscribed to DirecTV since January 2002, but our loyalty is to TiVo.


----------



## 20TIL6

mp11 said:


> I agree. Except I really dont see myself going back to Directv. Things will have to take a very bad turn with Charter cable. I'm happier than I ever thought I'd be with cable. Excellent picture quality, my locals in HD(which Directv couldnt supply), and a full blown Tivo...not the watered down variety...life is good.


Oh yeah. Going from DirecTiVo to S3/HD standalones.... having the standalones gives you a great benchmark to measure the new DirecTiVo against.

There are some must haves, and maybe some I could live without.

Comcast has been OK. Once everything is working, it's great. And it has been for a while. Just some cablecard issues, that do get resolved, but you have to really find the right person to help you. Until then, you are this TiVo using, generic DVR rejecting malcontent customer that nobody really knows how to help. So unless FiOS comes to town (not holding my breath), if the new DirecTiVo has the mix of features I want..... I'm open.


----------



## Matt L

cthomp21 said:


> So, I couldn't hold out on upgrading to HD any longer and did the "Free HD Swap" to replace a couple of HR10's on my account with a pair of HR22's. I figured I'd have to upgrade my dish anyways when the new HD Directivo comes out. Worse case scenario would be swapping the HR22's out for some SD Directivo's (the HR10 have been relocated elsewhere in the house).
> 
> Some thoughts on my experience over the past few weeks with the HR22's:
> 
> 
> Slow - They are much slower than any of my Directivo's when navigating around. One of them is extraordinarily slow (my wife is constantly complaining and yelling at the new box)
> Interface - The interface, while nowhere near intuitive as a Tivo, is acceptable. I wish it had more options to customize it more to my liking (NP list especially)
> Remote - The remote is a bit too complicated (guess I'm having peanut withdrawal) although its RF and extra features are useful
> Picture Quality - The HD material looks fantastic.
> Recording - I just can't understand the logic here. I'm getting repeats when setting to first run only. I haven't been able to record a single White Sox game when setting up an autorecord wishlist even when telling it to record practically everything White Sox related. I don't like the series links being tied to a single channel. The 50 series links limit will approach awfully quickly (especially to get it to record the programs I want).
> MRV - No multi room viewing (yet). I can't wait for this feature to come out. I didn't realize how much I used it in the past with our SD Directivos.
> DLB - No dual live buffer (yet) - Double Play is also supposed to be out soon. Hurry up already!!!
> MediaShare - This is a great feature. I'm using Tversity and can view anything on my computer. I like that it's streaming (unlike Tivoserver). But, it can sometimes stutter. It also lacks the ability to RW or FF. You can only pause/play. I'm looking forward to Mediashare improvements and will maybe try the Play On Software.
> 
> To sum up, HD is great but the interface is slow with some missing features (which should hopefully show up soon) and is nowhere near as intuitive as Tivo. I'm really, really looking forward to the new HD Directivo and will probably get a pair of them to replace my HR10s when they come out. That is, if they ever show up....


All valid points, but all pretty much solvable. I moved from the peanut remote to a Harmony 670 that is very similar in feel and shape, but not exactly, and it made the transition easier. The other stuff you are after should be out soon, or you can join the CE group, to be honest without the CE I would not still be a D Customer.


----------



## shibby191

Rowsdower said:


> I wish that DirecTV would provide _some_ sort of concrete information on the project's status (beyond "it's delayed"). I mean, it isn't even clear exactly what this box is going to be.
> 
> My family is tired of waiting (especially as the number of MPEG-2 HD channels continues to dwindle), and we're tempted to purchase some standalone TiVo HD boxes and switch back to cable. We've subscribed to DirecTV since January 2002, but our loyalty is to TiVo.


Honestly it's because DirecTV themselves don't really care if it ever comes out or not. It's pretty obvious it's not in their "grand roadmap". DirecTV has 60% uptake on their DVR, lowest churn in a decade and signing up customers like crazy. Tivo doesn't mean a whole lot to them frankly. It was simply a support contract renewal (along with a no sue clause) with Tivo that included the ability for Tivo to build a new box if they wanted to. So it's really all Tivo's baby. So if you want any concrete information on it look to Tivo, not DirecTV.

I'm honestly surprised people are still waiting on this thing. Either move on to the DirecTV DVR (which frankly is just fine) or off to cable/Fios/Uverse. You're going to be waiting a long time for this new box, if it ever comes.


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## Rowsdower

shibby191 said:


> So if you want any concrete information on it look to Tivo, not DirecTV.


My understanding is that TiVo isn't contractually permitted to issue such public announcements without DirecTV's consent.


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## shibby191

Rowsdower said:


> My understanding is that TiVo isn't contractually permitted to issue such public announcements without DirecTV's consent.


That may be but DirecTV ain't talking. They have never mentioned or talked about this since the initial press release over a year ago. They obviously aren't all the concerned about it. Unlike Tivo who talked this up a lot until they announced their delay back in January. Now they ain't talking either.

The key here is though like any other product by any other company we aren't going to get any solid info until it's near end of development and on the scheduled to be released. That we haven't heard anything so far is pretty telling. Haven't even had a sniff about it being in beta. CES is in 5 months. IF it's coming out next year I would fully expect Tivo to demo it. If they don't then be very worried about it never happening.


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## mp11

shibby191 said:


> That may be but DirecTV ain't talking. They have never mentioned or talked about this since the initial press release over a year ago. They obviously aren't all the concerned about it. Unlike Tivo who talked this up a lot until they announced their delay back in January. Now they ain't talking either.
> 
> The key here is though like any other product by any other company we aren't going to get any solid info until it's near end of development and on the scheduled to be released. That we haven't heard anything so far is pretty telling. Haven't even had a sniff about it being in beta. CES is in 5 months. IF it's coming out next year I would fully expect Tivo to demo it. If they don't then be very worried about it never happening.


Hard to disagree at this point. The longer it goes with no word...the worse the outcome. I always believed from day one, Directv was gonna treat Tivo like a red headed stepchild. And they have. Why would they want direct competition with thier own DVR? They did this because they felt they needed to. It's a "keep you enemies closer" senario.


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## 20TIL6

Rowsdower said:


> I wish that DirecTV would provide _some_ sort of concrete information on the project's status (beyond "it's delayed"). I mean, it isn't even clear exactly what this box is going to be.
> 
> My family is tired of waiting (especially as the number of MPEG-2 HD channels continues to dwindle), and we're tempted to purchase some standalone TiVo HD boxes and switch back to cable. We've subscribed to DirecTV since January 2002, but our loyalty is to TiVo.


Looks like Shibby's given you your answer. DirecTV doesn't really care about offering a new DirecTiVo. And since you want one, it seems they don't care about you either. DirecTV has some protection against an infringement lawsuit from TiVo, and they are doing their best to orphan existing DirecTiVo users and push them onto the in-house DVR. Shibby's research proves that.

Will there be a new DirecTiVo? Maybe. But my family's loyalty is to TiVo, just like yours. So no TiVo, no DirecTV. A few years ago, we canceled our 13 year customer relationship with DirecTV and bought S3 and HD standalone units. Like I said earlier, the weakest part of this combination is cable support of cablecards in the new standalones. But once you get past that, and it's locked in and working, it's fine.

Can it be a hassle, yes. But if you are like me, and a vendor is not providing the services you want, the hassle can be rewarding in the end because you are no longer paying someone who does not give a crap about you. And honestly, that's what it comes down to. DirecTV has plenty of other customers to replace you with. Maybe these replacement customers will give them 13+ years of business, or 23+ years as I would have if they had not messed with my preferred DVR.

So I am open to look at the new DirecTiVo if it is ever released. But I was not going to have an HR2X forced onto me just so that I could keep paying DirecTV for content I could get elsewhere.

Give a TiVo HD a shot. Really, I should say give your cable provider a shot. The TiVo HD is a great box with all its broadband features built-in (Amazon, Netflix, etc). And take advantage of OTA if you can.

If you decide to drop DirecTV, and they don't have a solid commitment lock on you, be prepared for a very tiring phone call. Just repeat over and over again, "That's great, but I still want to cancel". The retention CSR I spoke with went as far as to say that TiVo doesn't work with cable (while I was watching my cable-connected S3 during the phone call, she's telling me TiVo won't work with cable).

Good luck.


----------



## parzec

shibby191 said:


> That may be but DirecTV ain't talking. They have never mentioned or talked about this since the initial press release over a year ago. They obviously aren't all the concerned about it. Unlike Tivo who talked this up a lot until they announced their delay back in January. Now they ain't talking either.
> 
> The key here is though like any other product by any other company we aren't going to get any solid info until it's near end of development and on the scheduled to be released. That we haven't heard anything so far is pretty telling. Haven't even had a sniff about it being in beta. CES is in 5 months. IF it's coming out next year I would fully expect Tivo to demo it. If they don't then be very worried about it never happening.


Yes, this is beginning to look like a PR move to try and hold onto customers that were defecting from D* to the Tivo-HD. I could see DirecTV paying some money to Tivo to "study the feasibility of the project" that would allow them to make this announcement, but without ever having the intention on following through on production. I agree -- if no prototype is at CES this year, then I call BS on the whole thing.


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## fasTLane

20TIL6 said:


> The retention CSR I spoke with went as far as to say that TiVo doesn't work with cable (while I was watching my cable-connected S3 during the phone call, she's telling me TiVo won't work with cable).


LOL. Been down that road. 

Anyway, Direct will eventually lose this house if The Box is not forthcoming.


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## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> Looks like Shibby's given you your answer. DirecTV doesn't really care about offering a new DirecTiVo. And since you want one, it seems they don't care about you either. DirecTV has some protection against an infringement lawsuit from TiVo, and they are doing their best to orphan existing DirecTiVo users and push them onto the in-house DVR. Shibby's research proves that.
> 
> Will there be a new DirecTiVo? Maybe. But my family's loyalty is to TiVo, just like yours. So no TiVo, no DirecTV. A few years ago, we canceled our 13 year customer relationship with DirecTV and bought S3 and HD standalone units. Like I said earlier, the weakest part of this combination is cable support of cablecards in the new standalones. But once you get past that, and it's locked in and working, it's fine.
> 
> Can it be a hassle, yes. But if you are like me, and a vendor is not providing the services you want, the hassle can be rewarding in the end because you are no longer paying someone who does not give a crap about you. And honestly, that's what it comes down to. DirecTV has plenty of other customers to replace you with. Maybe these replacement customers will give them 13+ years of business, or 23+ years as I would have if they had not messed with my preferred DVR.
> 
> So I am open to look at the new DirecTiVo if it is ever released. But I was not going to have an HR2X forced onto me just so that I could keep paying DirecTV for content I could get elsewhere.
> 
> Give a TiVo HD a shot. Really, I should say give your cable provider a shot. The TiVo HD is a great box with all its broadband features built-in (Amazon, Netflix, etc). And take advantage of OTA if you can.
> 
> If you decide to drop DirecTV, and they don't have a solid commitment lock on you, be prepared for a very tiring phone call. Just repeat over and over again, "That's great, but I still want to cancel". The retention CSR I spoke with went as far as to say that TiVo doesn't work with cable (while I was watching my cable-connected S3 during the phone call, she's telling me TiVo won't work with cable).
> 
> Good luck.


Unlike you my families loyalty is to the content, there only two worthwhile providers in this area and neither will support a TIVO box (not that I miss it at all, nor would it matter) at all, Directv and Uverse. The only two things the are holding me from moving to Uverse is the poor record time for their whole house DVR and ony 4 video streams if you are lucky. The cable company is a joke for what they provide and how much they charge for what little content they provide once the "great deals" run out


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## bigpuma

parzec said:


> Yes, this is beginning to look like a PR move to try and hold onto customers that were defecting from D* to the Tivo-HD.


I am guessing that DirecTV signing this deal with TiVo had more to do with avoiding future lawsuits than customer retention. There has never been a mass exodus from DirecTV due to the lack of TiVo. DirecTV's churn rate has stayed consistently low.


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## Rowsdower

20TIL6 said:


> Can it be a hassle, yes. But if you are like me, and a vendor is not providing the services you want, the hassle can be rewarding in the end because you are no longer paying someone who does not give a crap about you.


Unfortunately, our local cable provider is Comcast, which continually demonstrated that it didn't give a crap about us.

We switched our television service to DirecTV in 2002 because of the availability of DirecTiVo boxes (which replaced our standalone TiVo units), while continuing to subscribe to Comcast's Internet service (which was fine at the time). But as the years went by, the Internet service became worse and worse, and Comcast wouldn't do a damn thing to address our increasingly frequent outages. Finally, we switched to Verizon's much slower (but reasonably reliable) DSL service.

Meanwhile, we've had mostly positive dealings with DirecTV (apart from the TiVo issue), and we have "lifetime" DVR activation tied to the account.

If we knew for a fact that the new DirecTiVo offering was vaporware, we'd throw in the towel and put up with Comcast until Verizon FiOS reached our area. But for the time being, we're still holding out hope. (And yeah, CES might be the breaking point.)


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## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> Unlike you my families loyalty is to the content, there only two worthwhile providers in this area and neither will support a TIVO box (not that I miss it at all, nor would it matter) at all, Directv and Uverse. The only two things the are holding me from moving to Uverse is the poor record time for their whole house DVR and ony 4 video streams if you are lucky. The cable company is a joke for what they provide and how much they charge for what little content they provide once the "great deals" run out


We missed Sunday Ticket during that first season without DirecTV. Now, not so much. Between locals, ESPN, and NFL network, we've got our football fix. Saving that nearly $300 per season has been nice.

Other than the exclusive sports deals with DirecTV, I can't think of any other content I am not able to get through cable, or OTA, or broadband to the standalones. If I was tied to more than just Sunday Ticket, like maybe MLB or NHL, then it might have been more difficult. But I'm not into baseball or hockey.

If my only choices were DirecTV or U-verse, I'd go with DirecTV too. I had U-verse for a short while, three months. Not impressed. But by the same token, if those were my only choices, I might try to get by with just a TiVo with OTA and broadband. That's probably not doable.... yet.


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## shibby191

parzec said:


> Yes, this is beginning to look like a PR move to try and hold onto customers that were defecting from D* to the Tivo-HD. I could see DirecTV paying some money to Tivo to "study the feasibility of the project" that would allow them to make this announcement, but without ever having the intention on following through on production. I agree -- if no prototype is at CES this year, then I call BS on the whole thing.


Puma pretty much said it. The *real* reason for the latest contract with Tivo was:

1) Extend support of the current DirecTivo's (there are still a couple million of them after all).
2) No sue clause for either one (remember that DirecTV has all of Replay's patents now). This runs thru 2018 which is when the Tivo patents end. Funny how that works out. 
3) DirecTV finally got a reasonable rate they liked for Tivo to make a new DirecTivo. From what we can gather it's basically "we'll just pass on the cost to the customer and not eat any of it, if Tivo is so great they'll pay it". It's a win-win for DirecTV since they don't eat any of the Tivo fee, they just pass it on with a little on top for themselves. If the new Tivo box fails to sell well they aren't out much money and if it's a success then all it good there too. Basically all the risk is on Tivo. DirecTV can very easily eat a few million in development costs if it fails, Tivo not so much.

As for customers defecting, ummmm, what customers? DirecTV hasn't offered an SD DirecTivo receiver for almost 5 years now, HD version for going on 4 (there were still some tricking out into 2006 though). Since then DirecTV has done nothing but grow at record pace and has record low churn (customers leaving). Meanwhile cable keeps losing subs. Comcast alone lost 200,000 last quarter. So I see no uptake in cable subs due to Tivo. Heck, DirecTV will add as many new customers this year as Tivo has in total across all platforms.

60% of their new customers get an HD DVR and over 60%of their current sub base now has one of their DVRs.

This means nearly over 10 million DirecTV customers have their DVR.
At it's peak there were only about 4 million DirecTivo's, way under 2 million now as they die off from old age.
The amount of people leaving DirecTV just because of Tivo isn't even a half a drop in the 5 gallon bucket, not enough for them to even notice.

I think most people got a reality check on this a year or so ago but some still haven't. 

Now having said all that, it doesn't mean that Tivo isn't #1 important for you and others. It's just that for most people it isn't. I've always suggested that you should be happy. And if Tivo with cable will make you happy then I think looking into it would be a good idea. :up:


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## 20TIL6

Rowsdower said:


> Unfortunately, our local cable provider is Comcast, which continually demonstrated that it didn't give a crap about us.
> 
> We switched our television service to DirecTV in 2002 because of the availability of DirecTiVo boxes (which replaced our standalone TiVo units), while continuing to subscribe to Comcast's Internet service (which was fine at the time). But as the years went by, the Internet service became worse and worse, and Comcast wouldn't do a damn thing to address our increasingly frequent outages. Finally, we switched to Verizon's much slower (but reasonably reliable) DSL service.
> 
> Meanwhile, we've had mostly positive dealings with DirecTV (apart from the TiVo issue), and we have "lifetime" DVR activation tied to the account.
> 
> If we knew for a fact that the new DirecTiVo offering was vaporware, we'd throw in the towel and put up with Comcast until Verizon FiOS reached our area. But for the time being, we're still holding out hope. (And yeah, CES might be the breaking point.)


Do you have any indication that FiOS is coming? If so, you could go answer your TiVo question and temporarily go back to Comcast. Then jump as soon as FiOS rolls. Like you, I keep my broadband separate from my TV service. I have Comcast for TV and AT&T for DSL. That way, no vendor is too much of a hassle for me to fire.

I would talk with Comcast and be upfront with them. The only reason you are even considering their TV service is so that you can use a cablecard TiVo. I think TiVo gives you 30 days to cancel service and return the unit, so you could give Comcast a month to prove that they can provide you with proper service.

I am not a cheerleader for Comcast at all, but I would think they have improved their service since 2002. As good and as reliable as DirecTV? Maybe. Once we got the cablecard issues resolved, our picture quality and stability have been fine. A 30 day test drive might be just what you need.

It's just too damn bad you can't simply buy a reliable, digital TV signal from any of these companies without them dictating what kind of device you use to record and manage your subscribed content. I watch my TV content on a Sony television; I hope they are OK with that.


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## innocentfreak

shibby191 said:


> As for customers defecting, ummmm, what customers? DirecTV hasn't offered an SD DirecTivo receiver for almost 5 years now, HD version for going on 4 (there were still some tricking out into 2006 though). Since then DirecTV has done nothing but grow at record pace and has record low churn (customers leaving). Meanwhile cable keeps losing subs. Comcast alone lost 200,000 last quarter. So I see no uptake in cable subs due to Tivo. Heck, DirecTV will add as many new customers this year as Tivo has in total across all platforms.


I think one reason you don't see a huge number of defectors is people who have Directivos and aren't switching or upgrading don't need HD. Their Directivos work so their is no reason to leave. This applies to my family. My mom has 3 Directivos that I have upgraded. If they stopped working and I couldn't fix them or DTV forced her to switch to their DVR, she would switch to Fios. Since they work she has no reason to since she doesn't need HD so she isn't being forced to make a choice.

Then you have my brother and Father who stay for Sunday Ticket. My brother uses HD and still uses the H10-250 but maybe records 10 shows. He more uses the DTV DVRs for trickplay during games. My father doesn't even think his Directivo can display live TV regardless of how many times I try to show him. As a result he is happy with his Directivos recording all his shows and uses a basic receiver for live TV. Again he doesn't use HD and if he ever makes the upgrade someone else will be teaching him if Tivo isn't an option.

People like me left because I was tired of centercut SD programming and refused to replace my Tivo and pay extra for HD versions of the same channels I already pay for just so I can record TV in OAR. I made the switch to Fios and couldn't be happier. I realize I am the rare breed but then again Directv has done some things that just leave a bad taste in my mouth.


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## Rowsdower

20TIL6 said:


> Do you have any indication that FiOS is coming?


I know that it will arrive here eventually, but no time frame has been announced.



> If so, you could go answer your TiVo question and temporarily go back to Comcast. Then jump as soon as FiOS rolls.


Yes, that's what we're tempted to do.



> I am not a cheerleader for Comcast at all, but I would think they have improved their service since 2002.


Actually, we were quite happy with their service in 2002, and it was downhill from there. We finally became fed up with their Internet service (and attitude) and switched to Verizon DSL in late 2007.

Of course, their television service might still be fine. I just know that the company itself continually and increasingly failed to provide adequate customer care.

We're also mindful of the possibility that DirecTV will offer a fairly generous retention deal. We certainly would prefer that to spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $2,300 for four TiVo HD boxes with "lifetime" service (especially if we were to later learn that the new DirecTiVo box was just around the corner).


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## 20TIL6

Rowsdower said:


> We're also mindful of the possibility that DirecTV will offer a fairly generous retention deal. We certainly would prefer that to spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $2,300 for four TiVo HD boxes with "lifetime" service (especially if we were to later learn that the new DirecTiVo box was just around the corner).


That's a good point. If I was in your shoes, and really prepared to jump, I'd make DirecTV a retention offer on my terms. Like, knock off some amount of money from my monthly bill, and keep crediting that discount until DirecTV can offer you the new HD DirecTiVo. Sounds reasonable, right? You joined DirecTV because of TiVo, they took TiVo away, they should charge you less. 

And if they say no, you cancel. If they say yes, you could set aside that savings until either they offer the new DTiVo, or you just can't wait any longer and you use that savings to put toward the standalones with lifetimes. Be aware that DirecTV will most likely lock you into a new commitment for at least the duration of the discount.

In a quirky sort of way, you could think of DirecTV as actually funding a portion of your probable and eventual standalones/lifetimes purchases. Might make DirecTV's delays worthwhile.


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## Matt L

All these "I want my Tivo" and "I'm loyal to TiVo not D" comments sound very familiar, I said them all over the last couple of years. But with 2 new plasmas and a LCD in the past few months and I wanted more HD content. And to be honest the hatred of comcast out weighed my love for TiVo so I bit the bullet and took the free upgrade. Added the CE and I'm not looking back. All I can say to you folks who are adamant about not switching is take the free upgrade, it costs nothing, does not lock you in, and does not mean you have to give up your DTiVo. There really isn't a down side.

At least keep an open mind. the HR2x's are not wonderful, but they are not the devil either. I'm putting up with a few blips with the CE but I have more functionality than my DTIVo's ever had, MRV is a dream come true, and I get a hell of a lot more HD.


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## Rowsdower

20TIL6 said:


> That's a good point. If I was in your shoes, and really prepared to jump, I'd make DirecTV a retention offer on my terms. Like, knock off some amount of money from my monthly bill, and keep crediting that discount until DirecTV can offer you the new HD DirecTiVo.


We've received many substantial discounts over the years. Instead of threatening to cancel our subscription (which some people have done as a bluff), I've simply informed the retention department that I've read about customers receiving [the best deal that anyone is reporting at that time]. They've always cheerfully provided everything that I've requested.

But at this point, we don't want to lock into a new commitment without MPEG-4 DirecTiVo boxes in front of us. We're thinking more along the lines of an eventual free or low-cost upgrade path to the new DirecTiVo hardware (or TiVo-enhanced DirecTV hardware, or whatever the heck it ends up being if it actually becomes a reality).

And if it turns out to be vaporware, nothing is going to keep us with DirecTV. We want more HD content, and we'd rather deal with Comcast than give up TiVo.


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## fasTLane

Rowsdower said:


> And if it turns out to be vaporware, nothing is going to keep us with DirecTV. We want more HD content, and we'd rather deal with Comcast than give up TiVo.


*+1*


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## sjberra

parzec said:


> Yes, this is beginning to look like a PR move to try and hold onto customers that were defecting from D* to the Tivo-HD. I could see DirecTV paying some money to Tivo to "study the feasibility of the project" that would allow them to make this announcement, but without ever having the intention on following through on production. I agree -- if no prototype is at CES this year, then I call BS on the whole thing.


funny, their quarterly financial results pretty much shows that this statement is completely invalid. As of there 2Q09 results Directv is the world's largest Pay-TV Provider with Over 24.2 Million Subscribers. Looks like they really did not have to worry about the PR of this. Will be curious how the new findings come out in the courts regarding Tivo's patents.


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## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> Will be curious how the new findings come out in the courts regarding Tivo's patents.


I think that's the key right there. IMO, the Replay IP is of very little protection for DirecTV. If it was substantial IP, either TiVo or especially DISH, would have scooped it up long ago (TiVo has not been timid in acquiring IP, they have bought quite a bit from IBM). Besides DirecTV has been quite timely in re-upping their deal with TiVo. It tells me that much, if not all of this, is riding on the outcome of the patent litigation.

And on that front, I read this morning that DISH is wanting to raise $1billion in debt securities. TiVo is asking something like $975million in sanctions damages.

Whether this will have a direct impact on DirecTV and their DVR strategy... who knows? It certainly does not hurt TiVo's position.


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## 20TIL6

BTW, for a topic that started in Sept. 08, and some think is a vaporware product with very little demand.... this thread has a lot of activity. Both views and replies. Whether that is caused by actual interest, or mostly interest in sharing opinion.....?


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## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> I think that's the key right there. IMO, the Replay IP is of very little protection for DirecTV. If it was substantial IP, either TiVo or especially DISH, would have scooped it up long ago (TiVo has not been timid in acquiring IP, they have bought quite a bit from IBM). Besides DirecTV has been quite timely in re-upping their deal with TiVo. It tells me that much, if not all of this, is riding on the outcome of the patent litigation.
> 
> And on that front, I read this morning that DISH is wanting to raise $1billion in debt securities. TiVo is asking something like $975million in sanctions damages.
> 
> Whether this will have a direct impact on DirecTV and their DVR strategy... who knows? It certainly does not hurt TiVo's position.


If the PTO rejects TIVO patent because of two prior ones, it will put a completely different light on everything. Initially the office has rejected TIVO's software claims


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## shibby191

20TIL6 said:


> BTW, for a topic that started in Sept. 08, and some think is a vaporware product with very little demand.... this thread has a lot of activity. Both views and replies. Whether that is caused by actual interest, or mostly interest in sharing opinion.....?


Well, it *is* the same 2 dozen people talking back and forth with each other.


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## shibby191

20TIL6 said:


> I think that's the key right there. IMO, the Replay IP is of very little protection for DirecTV. If it was substantial IP, either TiVo or especially DISH, would have scooped it up long ago (TiVo has not been timid in acquiring IP, they have bought quite a bit from IBM). Besides DirecTV has been quite timely in re-upping their deal with TiVo. It tells me that much, if not all of this, is riding on the outcome of the patent litigation.
> 
> And on that front, I read this morning that DISH is wanting to raise $1billion in debt securities. TiVo is asking something like $975million in sanctions damages.
> 
> Whether this will have a direct impact on DirecTV and their DVR strategy... who knows? It certainly does not hurt TiVo's position.


I'm not sure why it effects DirecTV at all. DirecTV and Tivo have a contract in place that states they cannot sue each other and it runs until 2018. Doesn't matter if Replay's IP means anything or not (or for that matter if Tivo's IP means anything or not), they have an agreement/contract to not sue each other. That simple really.


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## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> If the PTO rejects TIVO patent because of two prior ones, it will put a completely different light on everything. Initially the office has rejected TIVO's software claims


I am assuming you are talking about DISH's latest attempt at invalidating TiVo's '389 patent. They attempted this before, and initially the PTO ruled in the same way. Then TiVo had their turn to argue the points and then the PTO ultimately upheld the patent as valid. This last attempt by DISH is by combining two claims as one, and then arguing that the combined claims are obvious and the patent should be found invalid.

And so the process starts again with the PTO opening up the inquiry, and for TiVo to respond. It could certainly be a completely different light as you say if the PTO ultimately invalidates a patent that they just previously reviewed and validated.

To me, the argument of obviousness loses its edge when you have to ask that the patent be investigated a second time.

Do you think DirecTV cares one way or the other?


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## fasTLane

shibby191 said:


> Well, it *is* the same 2 dozen people talking back and forth with each other.


No kidding.


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## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> I am assuming you are talking about DISH's latest attempt at invalidating TiVo's '389 patent. They attempted this before, and initially the PTO ruled in the same way. Then TiVo had their turn to argue the points and then the PTO ultimately upheld the patent as valid. This last attempt by DISH is by combining two claims as one, and then arguing that the combined claims are obvious and the patent should be found invalid.
> 
> And so the process starts again with the PTO opening up the inquiry, and for TiVo to respond. It could certainly be a completely different light as you say if the PTO ultimately invalidates a patent that they just previously reviewed and validated.
> 
> To me, the argument of obviousness loses its edge when you have to ask that the patent be investigated a second time.
> 
> Do you think DirecTV cares one way or the other?


Actually no I don't think they really give a rats rearend. Same as with the release of the tivo box for directv, if it comes, it comes. Would hazard a guess that 70 percent of current directv subscribers have no bloody idea what a Directivo is, nor do they give a flying fart. Sorry, given the latest release of financials - Directv does not need a tivo based unit, tivo needs a directv based unit


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## wesmills

innocentfreak said:


> I think one reason you don't see a huge number of defectors is people who have Directivos and aren't switching or upgrading don't need HD. ...
> People like me left because I was tired of centercut SD programming and refused to replace my Tivo and pay extra for HD versions of the same channels I already pay for just so I can record TV in OAR. I made the switch to Fios and couldn't be happier. I realize I am the rare breed but then again Directv has done some things that just leave a bad taste in my mouth.


My family, too, stuck with DirecTiVos for so long because all of our units _just worked_, and worked well. However, technology progresses and so, too, did our televisions. Eventually it got painful watching center-cut (aaaargh) SD on comparatively-modest HD sets, so when we started looking for somewhere to move, FiOS was high on the list. In our new residence our choices are satellite or FiOS since the cable company hasn't yet wired this property.

Why not take the free HD upgrade offer from DirecTV and let them do a "mover's connection" and hook everything up in our new house for me for free, without the $850 up-front cost for 3 TiVo HD units and their associated expanded storage? Easy: I'd have a riot on my hands. My wife and kid have both used the HR15 standard definition DVR and refused to use that "pile of crap." My kid even quit watching TV entirely for the short time the HR15 was his only option. That's how devoted we are to our TiVos.

If DirecTV shows up with a TiVo that will let us do what we do now, I would probably switch back. We like MRV, we like streaming Netflix, we love HD; all three of those must exist, and hopefully they will. I'd like to get MLB Extra Innings in HD (as opposed to the 1-game-in-HD we get on FiOS), but not enough to use DirecTV's DVR; the desire to watch Nats games (stop laughing) instead of listening to them on XM isn't that strong. Sure, we're in the minority, and it's probably not enough for DirecTV to care about, but that's the neat thing about competition.

FiOS + TiVo HD = Greatness.


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## shibby191

wesmills said:


> . My wife and kid have both used the HR15 standard definition DVR and refused to use that "pile of crap." My kid even quit watching TV entirely for the short time the HR15 was his only option. That's how devoted we are to our TiVos.


You probably mean the R15 which was indeed crap and they themselves haven't been made for a couple years now.

FYI the current set of DVRs from DirecTV are nothing like the NDS programmed R15. Light years difference.

But it probably doesn't make a difference to you from the sounds of it. Vast majority of people I know could care less what their DVR is (heck the many of them with cable and Uverse DVRs say that) they are happy as punch to have a DVR. It's the programming that they care about and if the DVR records the programs and they can watch it, that's all they care about. Those that just can't live without Tivo are rare. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Heck, most people have never even used a real Tivo. I'm about the only one (Tivo since 2000).


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## Rainy Dave

wesmills said:


> Why not take the *free HD upgrade offer from DirecTV *and let them do a "mover's connection" and hook everything up in our new house for me for free, without the $850 up-front cost for 3 TiVo HD units and their associated expanded storage?


Does something like the free HD upgrade exist for current subscribers who are using SD DirecTivos?

I've called and inquired and was offered an HD DVR for $200 (plus shipping) plus they'd waive the HD fee for 6 months.

I'd love to upgrade, but I'm not looking forward to paying $200 each to replace my R10 and DVR40.


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## innocentfreak

I have yet to see it. This is DTV we are talking about. 

I called and officially suspended my service today through 2/1/10. I am happy with Fios, my Tivo HDs, and my 7MC, but I don't want to lose my grandfathered package and E/W SD in case the Directivos end up offering more than what the Tivo HDs can do. I figure if by February there is no news on the new Directivo I will just drop DTV.


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## shibby191

innocentfreak said:


> I have yet to see it. This is DTV we are talking about.


Why should they be obligated to offer free HD upgrades? They do work deals with some people depending on how long they have been a customers, etc. but to expect just any SD DVR to be replaced with an HD DVR for free is just plain silly.

I have certainly never gotten anything free when I've "upgraded" to HD over the years. Paid $600 for my first HD receiver back 7 years ago (price had just dropped from $1000). Paid I think $299 for the HR20 when it became available.

Difference is that I guess I don't expect everything in life to be free.


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## Rainy Dave

I've paid full price for each of the DVR that I've purchased since I've been with DTV (2001).

Do I feel that they are "obligated" to offer free upgrades? Heck no. But, if they had a deal out there then I'd take advantage of it.


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## innocentfreak

shibby191 said:


> Why should they be obligated to offer free HD upgrades? They do work deals with some people depending on how long they have been a customers, etc. but to expect just any SD DVR to be replaced with an HD DVR for free is just plain silly.
> 
> I have certainly never gotten anything free when I've "upgraded" to HD over the years. Paid $600 for my first HD receiver back 7 years ago (price had just dropped from $1000). Paid I think $299 for the HR20 when it became available.
> 
> Difference is that I guess I don't expect everything in life to be free.


I don't expect them to offer free upgrades nor do I feel they are obligated. I don't believe I said anywhere that I felt they should. My point was more when you are dealing with a company that charges you for every little thing you shouldn't expect it. Case in point, my father uses the SAT-B55 as his main receiver which he paid around $600 for new 8-10 years ago and has since paid $600 or so to use it with the $5 a month receiver fee. It no longer works with Sunday Ticket since it can't tune the channels they moved Sunday Ticket to. He still had to pay to replace the receiver and now has a leased receiver with an additional commitment all because DTV changed the channels. They said if he had the protection plan this wouldn't be the case but also said they wouldn't have replaced the receiver since it isn't broken.

Things like this are why I don't expect them to give you anything for upgrading to HD.


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## Matt L

Well, he got a bad service rep and if he was familiar with these forums he would have known to hang up. there is no reason for him to pay anything and get a commitment when D requires a change of equipment. I paid nothing, 0, zip, to change to the HR23 from my HR10-250, and I kept my TiVo. I used it for about a month then pulled it from my account. I still have one HR10 active but I'm no longer in love with it, in fact it hardly gets used.


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## wesmills

shibby191 said:


> You probably mean the R15 which was indeed crap and they themselves haven't been made for a couple years now.
> 
> FYI the current set of DVRs from DirecTV are nothing like the NDS programmed R15. Light years difference.


You may be right, but the overriding point for me was that I didn't want to spend $free + $199 + $199 + $whatever-hacked-up-expanded-drives-cost + $2-year-contract-on-DirecTV on a whim and hope that the DVRs had gotten better. Instead, I spent $850 and got three boxes that all have expanded recording capacity (two of them are even supported under warranty ) and a platform that I know works for us. Our first DVRs were TiVos and everything we've tried since hasn't measured up.

Yep, I'm rare, but I also have a somewhat rare situation: A content provider that will give me what I want for a price I'm willing to pay on a 1-year contract, AND lets me use TiVo. DirecTV doesn't fit the bill, but I hope they do someday because I have no beef with DirecTV's content.



Rainy Dave said:


> Does something like the free HD upgrade exist for current subscribers who are using SD DirecTivos?


I had an active HR10-250 so they were chomping at the bit to get me to swap it out. No deal on the remaining two DVRs, so they'd be $199/unit (and I wouldn't get to keep them to resell, but the lease vs. own debate is kinda overdone).


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## Matt L

wesmills said:


> My kid even quit watching TV entirely for the short time the HR15 was his only option. That's how devoted we are to our TiVos.


That seems like a prime reason to KEEP the unit, a kid not watching TV.

Trust me, I loved my Tivos too, waited 2 years to move on, yet I don't miss it in the least. I paid $1000 for my first HR10-250 when they came out, that is how dedicated I was, had stand alone units in '99 when they hit the market, had a Phillips D TiVo, and lots of other DTiVos, believe me I supported the franchise. But when it comes down to it I really wanted the content, to support my 3 new HD units. The HR2x series is different, but certainly very usable.


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## parzec

shibby191 said:


> Puma pretty much said it. The *real* reason for the latest contract with Tivo was:......


Except I was specifically talking about the announcement of a new HD-Tivo for DirectTV, not the overall benefits of contract extension.

The announcement of the new HD-Tivo for DirecTV seems designed to placate those remaining customer that are die-hard Tivo users, and to string them on little longer. My theory is that they never intended to create the unit and made the announcement as strictly a PR move. I know that as a DirecTV champion, your knee-jerk reaction is to diminish the importance of Tivo, and that is expected, but I still believe DirecTV would like to keep getting the money of those "few" Tivo users that remain. In any event, we'll know soon enough if Directivo/Tivo is able to present a working prototype at CES.

FYI - I finally extracted myself from the DirecTV choke-hold contract, switched to Tivo-HD and couldn't be happier with the move. Free OTA HD locals that is superior in quality to the re-compressed local channels that are far from free through DirecTV. That is what makes me happy, and I'm sure you have your reasons to stick with D*.that make you happy. I say, to each his own...


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## Enrique

parzec said:


> Except I was specifically talking about the announcement of a new HD-Tivo for DirectTV, not the overall benefits of contract extension.
> 
> The announcement of the new HD-Tivo for DirecTV seems designed to placate those remaining customer that are die-hard Tivo users, and to string them on little longer.


Are you kidding me? DirecTV is having no problems adding subs(SD or HD) with their own branded receivers. Over the past two quarters DirecTV has added over 600,000 subs with most of them taking DirecTVs HDDVR.

If this is just for PR, it isn't for any past or current Tivo/DirecTV sub(Or to "string them on little longer").


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## shibby191

parzec said:


> Except I was specifically talking about the announcement of a new HD-Tivo for DirectTV, not the overall benefits of contract extension.
> 
> The announcement of the new HD-Tivo for DirecTV seems designed to placate those remaining customer that are die-hard Tivo users, and to string them on little longer. My theory is that they never intended to create the unit and made the announcement as strictly a PR move. I know that as a DirecTV champion, your knee-jerk reaction is to diminish the importance of Tivo, and that is expected, but I still believe DirecTV would like to keep getting the money of those "few" Tivo users that remain. In any event, we'll know soon enough if Directivo/Tivo is able to present a working prototype at CES.


LOL. Well, let's look at a couple facts with this.
1) The announcement of the new HD-DirecTivo was announced as a part of the contract extension. So it's all related. Obviously in the negotiations for this support/no sue contract extension Tivo got what they wanted, the ability to make a new DirecTV box.
2) DirecTV has done nothing more then issue a press release when it was announced. 
3) Tivo also did this and then talked it up a lot and said it would be out 2nd half 2009. So it was on the fast track to be released.
They couldn't stop talking it up.
4) Then Tivo shows up at CES with no new DirecTV unit. They won't talk about. "No comment".
5) Then Tivo announces it will be delayed until 2010. We've had no further information in 6+ months now.

As for "placating" customers...I highly doubt it. Why?
1) There aren't that many left to placate. Plus they obviously aren't losing many of these customers based on their continued growth and low churn (the big number in terms of people leaving).
2) You think most of the DirecTivo customers left even know that this new box is planned? Virtually none of them. People outside of this form for the most part don't read press releases or read Engadget to find this stuff out. Only way they'll ever know about it is *after* it's released and DirecTV tells them it's available. So just the announcement of such a box isn't going to do anything to placate people because they don't even know about it. Maybe it'll placate a few dozen people on this forum...big deal...they'll add that many new subs by noon today.

My statement that DirecTV could care less is simply coming from what we know which is:
1) DirecTV hasn't said one word about this new box outside the initial press release over a year ago.
2) DirecTV obviously doesn't need Tivo to keep on growing and keeping customers (the initial HR2x users have been coming off contract for nearly a year now yet churn is actually going *down*.) Tivo has been gone from DirecTV for 3-5 years now. *It's not hurting them one bit, never has.* 

Now this isn't saying that Tivo is "bad". Simply stating what is actually going on by the facts that we know. Could be totally wrong.

I think it would be awesome to have a new Tivo box if anything for competition. Competition is always good.



> FYI - I finally extracted myself from the DirecTV choke-hold contract, switched to Tivo-HD and couldn't be happier with the move. Free OTA HD locals that is superior in quality to the re-compressed local channels that are far from free through DirecTV. That is what makes me happy, and I'm sure you have your reasons to stick with D*.that make you happy. I say, to each his own...


Excellent. I've always said to go where you will be happy. Life is too short.


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## bigpuma

shibby191 said:


> 3) Tivo also did this and then talked it up a lot and said it would be out early 2009. So it was on the fast track to be released.
> They couldn't stop talking it up.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the original announcement said the new HD DirecTiVo would come out in the second half of 2009 not the first. Otherwise I agree with everything you said.


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## shibby191

bigpuma said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the original announcement said the new HD DirecTiVo would come out in the second half of 2009 not the first. Otherwise I agree with everything you said.


Yea, I think you're right. I do remember people going all crazy thinking it was going to be early or in July or something. Like Tivo or DirecTV have ever delivered anything on time let alone early.


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## 20TIL6

These are the impressions I get from some folks here:


The new HD DirecTV/TiVo is vapor, and will probably never come to light.
DirecTV is doing booming business without TiVo. DirecTV does not need TiVo.
Remaining DirecTV/TiVo users are a small population, and getting smaller.
Because DirecTV bought the IP assets of Replay, they have established an argument against infringement.

I'm not debating these impressions. I wonder why DirecTV is paying TiVo for any licensing, support, whatsoever. Clearly DirecTV could save all monies going out as licensing expenses by not extending any agreements. Clearly they could make a final offer to the TiVo die-hards and basically say that after such date, DirecTV/TiVo units will not work. This is a small population, and not all of them will churn. And then DirecTV ends up with what they want... a tightly enclosed system (and I mean financial, but some could argue technical as well).

Why don't they just do that? Seriously, just cut it and kick out any customers that don't like it. Right?


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## Jonathan_S

shibby191 said:


> [...]
> 2) You think most of the DirecTivo customers left even know that this new box is planned? Virtually none of them. People outside of this form for the most part don't read press releases or read Engadget to find this stuff out. Only way they'll ever know about it is *after* it's released and DirecTV tells them it's available. So just the announcement of such a box isn't going to do anything to placate people because they don't even know about it. Maybe it'll placate a few dozen people on this forum...big deal...they'll add that many new subs by noon today.
> 
> My statement that DirecTV could care less is simply coming from what we know which is:
> 1) DirecTV hasn't said one word about this new box outside the initial press release over a year ago.


Odd, as a (then) DirecTV subscriber with DTiVos I remember receiving a voicemail from DirecTV earlier this year announcing their extended partnership with TiVo and that a new TiVo HD box would be coming to DirecTV.

(And its also possible, but my memory's a little hazy, that a message got sent to my DTiVos with that same information)

So DirecTV _did_ appear to try to disseminate to a wide range DTiVo owners, and didn't rely on them to be paying attention to press-releasss or blogs to discover this upcoming box.

Sidenote: when I called to drop DirecTV the CSR knew about and mentioned the upcoming DirecTV/TiVo HD box as a reason not to leave DirecTV for FIOS.


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## fasTLane

20TIL6 said:


> Why don't they just do that? Seriously, just cut it and kick out any customers that don't like it.


*Karma?*


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## samo

20TIL6 said:


> These are the impressions I get from some folks here:
> 
> 
> The new HD DirecTV/TiVo is vapor, and will probably never come to light.
> DirecTV is doing booming business without TiVo. DirecTV does not need TiVo.
> Remaining DirecTV/TiVo users are a small population, and getting smaller.
> Because DirecTV bought the IP assets of Replay, they have established an argument against infringement.
> 
> I'm not debating these impressions. I wonder why DirecTV is paying TiVo for any licensing, support, whatsoever. Clearly DirecTV could save all monies going out as licensing expenses by not extending any agreements. Clearly they could make a final offer to the TiVo die-hards and basically say that after such date, DirecTV/TiVo units will not work. This is a small population, and not all of them will churn. And then DirecTV ends up with what they want... a tightly enclosed system (and I mean financial, but some could argue technical as well).
> 
> Why don't they just do that? Seriously, just cut it and kick out any customers that don't like it. Right?


Because replacing 1.5 million units costs much more than what they pay to Tivo. DirecTV pays TiVo less than a $1 a month per account, at this rate it would take much longer than 8 years to amortize the cost of replacement units. Besides, just by natural attrition and move to HD there will be only negligible number of SD TiVos in service 8 years from now.
As for new HD TiVos, the market will decide. DirecTV can not lose. If people like them they will pay extra, if people don't then Tivo is screwed. Considering how well TiVo HD sells against crappy cable DVRs, I don't think that many people will switch to DirecTiVo HD even if it will become available one day. I certainly will not unless new HD DirecTiVo will have all the features of HR2X and none of the ads (and will not be sold/leased at premium or require extra monthly fees)


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## 20TIL6

fasTLane said:


> *Karma?*


Yep. I'm sure that's it.


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## shibby191

20TIL6 said:


> These are the impressions I get from some folks here:
> 
> 
> The new HD DirecTV/TiVo is vapor, and will probably never come to light.
> DirecTV is doing booming business without TiVo. DirecTV does not need TiVo.
> Remaining DirecTV/TiVo users are a small population, and getting smaller.
> Because DirecTV bought the IP assets of Replay, they have established an argument against infringement.
> 
> I'm not debating these impressions. I wonder why DirecTV is paying TiVo for any licensing, support, whatsoever. Clearly DirecTV could save all monies going out as licensing expenses by not extending any agreements. Clearly they could make a final offer to the TiVo die-hards and basically say that after such date, DirecTV/TiVo units will not work. This is a small population, and not all of them will churn. And then DirecTV ends up with what they want... a tightly enclosed system (and I mean financial, but some could argue technical as well).
> 
> Why don't they just do that? Seriously, just cut it and kick out any customers that don't like it. Right?


My guess would be (other then samo said which is probably true too) is that just the cost of litigation, just fighting Tivo in court the next 5 years would cost a whole lot more then whatever contract they have in place. Look at how long they have been fighting Dish and how much Dish owes them (assuming it's held up). Even if it isn't the cost to Dish has been millions.

Now sure DirecTV could just keep Tivo in court forever until they go bankrupt but why go thru all that, spend all those tens of millions to the lawyers and all the potential bad press when they can simply extend their current support/no sue contract and allow Tivo to build a box if they choose at a rate that DirecTV now finds acceptable?

Seems smart on DirecTVs part as it's a win-win. If they went the other route and left it in the hands of the lawyers and clueless judges/juries it could and probably would cost more and potentially damage the company.

I'd rather go for the win-win senario personally. :up:


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