# Time Warner DVR vs. Tivo DVR



## NYDR27 (Mar 24, 2006)

Does anyone know what model HD DVR is used by Time Warner Cable? More specifically the NYC area? I'm trying to determine whether I should use Time Warner's DVR or get the new series 3 when it is released. Does any one think it's worth it to pay an additional fee for a Tivo when the cable company provides one for free?


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## skanter (May 28, 2003)

NYDR27 said:


> Does anyone know what model HD DVR is used by Time Warner Cable? More specifically the NYC area? I'm trying to determine whether I should use Time Warner's DVR or get the new series 3 when it is released. Does any one think it's worth it to pay an additional fee for a Tivo when the cable company provides one for free?


TWC in NYC uses the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD. It is not free, but an additional $8.95/mo over their non-DVR HD box. You can try it for a month, return it if you like. 
If you want a HD DVR, it is your only option now as Tivo S3 has not yet been released.

You'll have to do your own research to find the numerous differences between this box and the Tivo S3.


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## Lenarro (Mar 4, 2005)

I have been using this SA8300HD for about a week now. If you are used to Tivo, this box can be annoying. It buffers up to one hour, but not two tuners simultaneously (unless you are using pip). It lacks the tick marks to gauge how far along you are in a recording. Unless I am missing something, you cannot remove channels you don't watch or receive from the lineup. Watching a recorded show takes you to some obscure channel. There is more, but someone else probably listed all the differences somewhere. If you never had Tivo, this box might be ok. Having had Tivo, I am going to get the S3 asap.

Oh, and no 30 second skip.


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## workindev (Oct 13, 2003)

Lenarro said:


> I have been using this SA8300HD for about a week now. If you are used to Tivo, this box can be annoying. It buffers up to one hour, but not two tuners simultaneously (unless you are using pip). It lacks the tick marks to gauge how far along you are in a recording. Unless I am missing something, you cannot remove channels you don't watch or receive from the lineup. Watching a recorded show takes you to some obscure channel. There is more, but someone else probably listed all the differences somewhere. If you never had Tivo, this box might be ok. Having had Tivo, I am going to get the S3 asap.
> 
> Oh, and no 30 second skip.


The 8300HD is quite annoying if you are used to Tivo. Some annoyances I've also noted:
- There is no way to skip to the beginning or end of a recorded program - you have to do a 4x FF or RW
- No tick marks on the recording progress
- Annoying delay for DVR functions. Pausing takes 2-3 seconds, causes the screen to blank out, and then flash back on as a paused image. FF and RW has an annoying lag plus no FF preview like Tivo has to make commercial skipping easy
- I've also not been able to remove channels that I don't have or don't watch from the guide. I have to flip through all available channels on the guide when surfing.
- The "Info" data isn't available on recorded shows. When you press info, it comes us a generic "Recorded Program" so you can't see show descriptions, length, etc.

I had to move to an apartment for 1 year and could not put up a dish, so my HR10-250 is sitting in my closet now. As soon as I can, I will be going back to Tivo.


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## willoc (Aug 14, 2005)

The 8300HD box is such a piece of junk...don't even get me started! I went from an HR10-250 down to this thing, just because I'm in an apartment now and don't want to hassle installing the dish and paying a deposit, etc. I wish I could throw this box off my 3rd floor balcony. It misses recordings, sometimes doesn't record the entire show, and the user interface looks like a bunch of kindergarten students programmed it. Searching through the guide is a painful process...no wish lists...hard to find a show by name too. Hold out for the Series 3, trust me on this one! I am tempted to get a Tivo Series 2 (dual tuner) for now and live without the HD recording, it is that bad.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Currently, I have a DirecTiVo for SD, and an SA8300 cable box for HD.

Whoever gives me an integrated TiVo that handles HD at a reasonable price gets all my business. I can live with the SA8300 for now, because I pretty much have to if I want HD (OTA around here kind of sucks). But I don't like it at all, and I'm looking forward to the day when I can have a one-stop TiVoized solution.


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## Slikkster (Jul 30, 2006)

I have to wonder if some of you posters actually read user guides for equipment, given some of the stuff I see here about the 8300HD. I have both a standard Tivo series 2 (non-HD, obviously), and the 8300HD. I don't think anything is *perfect*, and that goes for both the Tivo and the 8300HD. But come on...just because this is a Tivo forum doesn't mean one has to be loyal to a fault, lol.

There's basically two versions of the 8300HD out there, depending upon the cable company. One uses the "Sara" OS, one the Pioneer Passport. Time Warner NYC uses the Passport.

Here's just a couple inaccuracies I've seen in the comments here about the 8300HD:

Can't skip forward/back: There is an easy way to skip ahead/back 15 minutes at a pop. It's right in the guide.

No info on recorded programs?? Huh? That's because you've only pressed the info button once. Press it again, and there's your expanded info, sometimes several pages of it.

Remove channels from the guide? That's the cable company's deal, not a function of the box. You think the cable company wants people calling up asking "why don't I get channel 701?" when someone at your house has removed it? There ARE favorite channels, though, that you can scan through.

Here's the first post from the 8300HD users guide at avsforums.com (link is http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=471859)

I personally think Tivo's interface is clunky as heck. To each their own, I guess. Here's the post with 8300HD (SARA software) tips:

--------------------------------from avsforum.com---------see link above------------------

This particular guide refers to the "Sara" software-based 8300HD units in some respects, but there's also a link for the Passport models' tips:

Background: Okay, here goes! Much of this I edited, updated, and tested from the SA8000HD posts by AVS Member 'vegggas'. Others I added from personal experience and suggestions offered by other users, with literary license taken by yours truly.
NOTE: With the release of SARA version 1.88.x.x becoming more widespread, I've added references to the latest SA8300HD DVR User's Guide.

Links (to SA8300HD threads/sites that may be of further interest):

SA8300HD DVR User's Guide

Vegggas' original SA8000HD DVR - Cox - SARA - Setup and Review Guide thread

Time Warner Cable - SA 8000HD & 8300HD w/ Passport software thread

8300HD and External SATA - It Works!! thread

SA's PowerTV Developers Page

SA's PowerTV CreativEdge Developers Guide
Tips & Tricks (in no particular order)

Setup Wizard. UG-3 Instructions for Advanced Setup Wizard to choose TV type and resolutions, done after the box has received it's initial download from your cableco.
Using the Power button on the unit (not the remote), turn off power, then press both the GUIDE and INFO buttons at the same time
Choose Easy or Advanced setup - Easy selects 480i and 1080i outputs only - Advanced provides options for TV type (4x3 or 16x9) and user selected outputs.
Follow instructions on the screen to set your output resolutions. Read instructions carefully in advanced mode. If the screen goes blank, it is trying to display a resolution that your TV does not support and you have to disable that output. All resolutions will be displayed for 30 seconds each if no user selection is made.
Slow Motion Mode. UG-14 While viewing a recorded program, press Play a second time to enter Slow Motion mode.

Frame Advance Mode. UG-14 While viewing a recorded program, press Pause, the FF/REW buttons now become Frame Advance buttons. This is particularly useful when....well, you know when it's useful.

Fast Forward/Rewind. UG-13 Pressing the FF or REW button starts the desired action. But did you know you can press them up to 3-4 times to increase the speed? FF/REW speeds are 4x, 10x, and 30x, with a 128x being added in 1.88.x.x versions of the software.

Mimic Tivo Jump-Back. UG-14 Tivo users have gotten used to the way it 'jumps back' a few seconds when you hit Play after fast forwarding. You can mimic this behavior by hitting the Replay button, the one with the curved arrow on it, instead of the Play button. This will bounce you back 8 seconds and resume normal speed from there. So, when you see the show come back on, hit the Replay button and it should start playing near the fade-to-black between the last commercial and the program. Once you get the hang of it, it will become quite natural.
One caveat. The next time you press FF, you will be given the "next" FF speed from the one you were previously using, rather than FF1. If you were using FF2, hit Replay, watch some of the show, and then hit FF, you will get FF3 instead of FF1. A better way might be to press Play and then immediately press Replay.

Another way to mimic this action is by pressing the Pause button instead of the Play button to stop fast forwarding. This way, when you hit the rewind button to back up to the precise place to restart the program, it will remain paused instead of immediately starting to play again. I have found that this makes getting to the right starting place a lot easier.
Clearing Pop-up Windows. UG-18 You can get rid of any pop-up windows, such as those annoying Upcoming Recording reminders and bar graphs, by hitting the Exit button.

Diagnostic Mode. There are two ways to enter the Diagnostic Mode:
Press and hold the Select button on the front of the unit until the Mail light starts to flash, then press the INFO button.

Press and hold the Pause button on the remote until the Mail light starts to flash (around 10-15 seconds), then press the Page Up (-) button. On some remotes, the Page (+) button might need to be used instead.
Disappearing Diagnostic Window. Enter the Diagnostic Mode (see above item). While in this mode you can change the transparency of the screens by pressing the Select button on the front of the box or the "B" button on the remote. It goes from 100% opaque to about 50% opaque to about 5% opaque. You can then use the Page Up/Down button on the remote to cycle through screens. This is useful when changing channels, noting signal levels/PQ, or trying to see levels fluctuate as glitches occur.

Finding SARA Software Version. Enter Diagnostic Mode (see above item) and scroll through the screens until you find the one entitled "Software Versions". The version number will be in a format similar to 1.85.14.3.

Reboot. Unplug power cord for 5 or more seconds and then plug it back in.

Forced Reboot (without unplugging unit). On the front of the box, press and hold both the VOL+ and VOL- buttons, then press the INFO button.

Hard Reboot. A Hard Reboot will refresh all available software and modules on the system, as well as clear out the memory cache. The IPG and other data may take up to 30 minutes or more to fully download.
Turn off the 8300 and wait 5 or more seconds.
Unplug the power cord from the 8300 and wait 5 or more seconds.
If you are resetting an external drive too, unplug it's power cord at this point and wait 5 or more seconds, then plug the power cord back into the external drive and wait 5 or more seconds.
Press and hold the power button on the 8300's front panel. While the power button is depressed, plug the 8300 power cord back in. Continue to hold the power button until the 8300 display says "boot" and/or begins to cycle a few times (usually about 15 seconds).
NOTE: A Hard Reboot will resolve MANY issues with not only external drives, but memory issues too. You should WAIT until the reboot is completely finished before powering up. It usually takes about 5 - 10 min, depending on your application and IPG data. The best way to determine when the download is finished is to watch the front panel indicators. On the front panel, where the : (colon) seperates the hours and minutes, the bottom " . " dot will appear after all the OS firmware has been loaded. An STB getting a download or initializing will be blank. Leave the STB alone until the dot appears.

Last Resort. If for some reason you can't get the STB to do what you want and you've rebooted it by unplugging it, etc., this is a "last resort" item - say just before taking the unit back, you can try reformatting the HDD.

The SA8000HD (and presummably the SA8300HD) has a fairly simple procedure to erase the drive (start clean). Note that this process will erase all scheduled programming and will cause the unit to reload all programming data from your cable provider. On the plus side, it will repair any fragmenting problems.
Press and hold PAUSE until Mail led is lit. Press PAGE down or (-), 
and then press LIST three times. Turn box off. When turned back on, 
formatting will begin.
HDD Defrag. To defrag the drive (1.88.x.x):
Set the DVR's MAIN channel and PIP channel to non-bufferable channels, such as a music channel, so that the drive is not being used.
Wait a few moments to verify that hard disk activity stops (listen).
Press the Power button on the front of the STB to turn the unit off, then wait.
The drive should start defragging after about 5 minutes of inactivity.
NOTE: The process can take several hours to all day to complete and will restart after content is deleted and the power down sequence is repeated. For maximum efficiency, consider turning off the STB, then do a front panel soft reboot (VOL-, VOL +, INFO) and leave the STB powered off until you hear it go into defrag mode, then just leave it off while you go to work, to bed, etc.
Skip To End. UG-18 Let's say you schedule the recording of a program and go out for dinner. When you get home, you begin watching the recorded program from the beginning while the rest is still recording. When the recording ends, you are 'kicked out' of your viewing. You then have to reselect the program from the list of recorded programs, but the only option is to start viewing from the beginning again. You can FF through to the point where you left off, but if it's a 2-hour program and you were 10 minutes from the end, FF can take some time. However, at this point, if you press Stop you will be given more options (Restart, Archive to VCR, Erase, Skip to End). If you choose Skip To End and then use REW, you can get back to the point where you left off a lot quicker. Remember that pressing the REW button 3 times increases the rewind speed.

Watch A Recording In Progress. UG-18 Stop the current recording and save it (usually during a commercial). Then start a "new" recording to finish the program by pressing the Record button and then press the Pause button. You can now view the first part from the beginning and then view the second part, either in progress or from the beginning after it finishes. While it is annoying to divide the recording into segments, at least you can easily skip to the beginning without rewinding, certainly a useful feature for time-shifting.
NOTE: See New Features In 1.88.x.x near end of post.

Extend Recording Time. UG-21 You can extend the recording time of a recording currently in progress by following these steps:
Press the LIST button to go to the DVR section of recorded programs.
Press the "A" button to switch to the SCHEDULED RECORDINGS list (Note: This is not the first list of available recordings. It is the second list of your current and future scheduled recordings).
Find your in-progress recording program (it will be highlighted in RED).
Press the SELECT button to access the options.
Change the end time to the desired time (whatever is needed to fit the estimated program length).
Press the "A" button to accept changes.
While this is particularly useful for extending the time for sporting events that may run overtime, it is also useful to avoid scheduling conflicts caused by networks who think beginning their programs early, like ER, or ending them late, like Lost and Desperate Housewives, is the thing to do to hook viewers. I use this tip every week to record Supernatural and cut the end time by 1 minute so as not to interfere with the beginnng of ER. Since I also record CSI and ER, there is always a 3-recording conflict whenever I try to schedule Supernatural. I have to remember to schedule it every week and change the end time, but all I lose are the credits/previews, so it's worth the extra effort.

Checking Status Of Current Recording. You can use PIP to check on the status of a program that is currently being recorded. The recording program will be displayed in the PIP window. If you are watching a program that is being recorded while recording a second program, the second program will be displayed in the PIP window.

Lost or Missing Recordings. Most of us probably schedule several All or New episode recordings when the fall season starts and then forget about them. However, the success of these scheduled recordings depends enirely on the title of the program matching the title when the recording was scheduled. Oftentimes, the title in the IPG changes, sometimes as often as weekly, and that can reak havoc with your schedule. While it's impossible to attribute every lost or missing recording to a title change, a few folks, including me, periodically check our schedule and have noticed such title changes. The Rebel Billionaire used to change to just The Billionaire every other week and recordings were missed. The title for The Sporanos reruns appears to be doing the same thing as networks try to add info like HD or 5.1 to some titles. Depending on who provides your cableco's IPG data, this may or may not happen to you, but it seems worthwhile to periodically check your scheduled recordings list against the IPG to make sure recordings are flagged for the coming week.

Program In Progress Recording Bug Workaround. Most times you can start recording a program you are watching by simply pressing the Record button, editing the settings, and then Accepting them. However, there appears to be a problem when the program you are watching started before midnight and it is after midnight when you want to start the recording. Simply put, nothing happens. The recording doesn't start and the program does not show up in the LIST. We believe there might be a workaround.
The easiest way to avoid this bug is to simply record the program even if you are going to watch it. This requires you to FF to the point where you want to start watching from, and this can take some time, but it's better than missing the end of the program.

Another way is to press the Record button and edit the Start time to start the recording from the current time. NOTE: This has not yet been tested.

Here is an explanation of just what happens and another way to avoid being kicked out to live. The main tuner is using the buffer AND being recorded. As long as you are viewing the buffer, you have 1 hour of timeshifting, independent of the recording. I frequently will have the main channel set to something I want to record that lasts 1 hour. Once it starts, I hit pause. At that point, I will hit LIST and switch over to the DVR channel, but the buffer will still be in progress. I can choose a half hour program, which usually lasts about 20 min, or an hour program that lasts about 40 min. At the end of my pre-recorded show, I will punch in the channel number where I paused, and begin viewing where I left off at the paused point. At the end of the program, it doesn't kick me out because it's in the buffer, UNLESS it needs to change the channel for dual recording. A single recording will happen in the background.
Program Distribution. The 8300HD has 2 tuners and 2 outputs that can ALL be used at the same time. The Archive To VCR option does not have to be used only with a VCR. You can connect another TV (or VCR) in another room to the output connections and then view a downconverted pre-recorded program using the Archive To VCR option. At the same time, you can view a different recorded program on the main TV. However, it doesn't stop there. You can still record two other programs at the same time. You could easily send a recorded show to another room for your spouse/kids to watch while you watch a recorded/live program on the main TV without the fear of blocking any other recordings.
NOTE 1: I have not tested this myself, but others have, including one who streams programs to a central PC for further distribution/remote control.
NOTE 2: The 8300HD technically has 4 tuners; 2 NTSC and 2 QAM. However, only 2 of these can be used at any one time. Therefore, for the purposes of this and the next tip, the number of tuners has been limited to 2.
It should be noted that the 8300HD can also be connected to one device via HDMI and to another device via Component at the same time. In fact, a local member has it connected through a Geffen 4x1 DVI swither, and a 45 foot DVI cable, to his Marantz VP12S3. While this is supposed to be way beyond DVI specs, it has worked flawlessly. This same 8300 is also connected via Component cables to a W-VHS deck for permanent archiving. Note 1 above also applies.
Viewing A Third Program. No matter how many tuners the 8300HD has (2), there are times when they are simply not enough (how many are? ). Oftentimes, you will already be recording 2 programs and you want to watch (or even record) just one more. Well, you still can, but you will be limited to OTA or analog cable channels and SD resolution. There is nothing to keep you from hooking up an antenna to the ANT input on your TV and switching to that input to view a third program. There is also nothing to keep you from splitting your cable and running a second line to your TV to do the same thing. There is also nothing to keep you from running that second line to a VCR and then to your TV to view/record the third program.

Audio Out Using HDMI Connection. UG-2 An HDMI>HDMI or HDMI>DVI connection will automatically select 2 channel stereo if your TV does not support Dolby Digital (DD). In order to restore DD audio out to your receiver, you need to change the automatic setting. Press the Settings button twice and scroll to Audio: Digital Out. Change the setting from HDMI to Dolby Digital. This will force DD audio to the HDMI, as well as the digital/optical audio outs.

Removing Bars On SD Channels. As the 8300 comes setup from the factory, you get side bars on non-HD channels and have to toggle zoom modes to get rid of them. However, this often loses much of the image. Therefore, you may want to add output formats to your settings so you can stretch SD channels with your TV to get rid of the bars and avoid uneven phosphor wear (burn-in). To do this, you have to go through the standard S-A setup routine to enable formats other than 1080i, the box comes with only 1080i enabled by default. You also have to set the General Settings to Pass-Through. Press the Settings button twice and scroll to Seticture Format, select Pass-Through.
With box OFF and TV on, press Info and Guide (on box) together, then follow directions on the screen to enable 480i and any others you want. Cox passes 720p (ABC, FOX, ESPN), 1080i (all other HD channels), 480i (SD channels), and 480p (music channels). You will probably not see a difference between 1080i and 720p, so only enabling the one your HDTV uses will minimize reformatting as you scan through channels. Note: The 480i/p Widescreen options allow the 8300 to stretch the image to fill the screen for SD channels. Do not enable them if you use your TV to stretch the image.
Display Format Summary. UG-5/6 Press the Settings button twice to get to the General Settings. Then scroll up to Set: Picture Format.
Fixed - Displays all content at whatever resolution you selected, based on what you selected in the wizard. You force the output to a single output and the box scales to that input. Easily changed in the settings menu of the box.

Pass Through - Passes the input signal through to the output with no change, unless you disable certain resolutions. For example 480i in to 480i out, 480P in to 480P out, 1080i in to 1080i out, 720P in to 720P out. If you disable 720P, 720P in will go to 1080i out.

Auto HDMI/DVI - If you are using the HDMI port, you will see this option instead of the Pass Through option. Resolution is automatically formatted to the scan rate supported by the TV.

UpConvert 1 - All 480i and 480P signals get upconverted to 480P. All 720P and 1080i signals get upconverted to 1080i.

UpConvert 2 - All 480i and 480P signals get upconverted to 480P. All 720P and 1080i signals get converted to 720P.
NOTE: I noticed today that my format was reset once again. Usually when this happens, I have to go through General Settings and reselect Pass-Through. However, pressing the Pause button appears to restore the setting.

Audio Range Settings. The Audio Range choices are for the Dolby Digital output signals and they refer to the digital "Dynamic Range".
A Wide Dynamic Range will render audio that will go from the faintest audio level of a whisper at an extremely low level to a thundering boom at ear-shattering levels. This gives great impact to action movies, but calls for a good audio setup to properly be able to hear normal dialog without blasting the speakers during loud scenes.

A Narrow Dynamic Range keeps the lower volumes at a higher level, while muting the higher level sounds to a lower level. This way whispered dialog is not that much quieter than an explosion and all sound levels are "Narrowed" to a certain level.

A Normal Dynamic Range basically splits the difference.
These are not specific numbers, but think of it something like this when setting the volume level to about 33% for the same scene. Using the Narrow Dynamic Range setting, a whisper might be 45db while an explosion is 85db, a "Narrow" range of audio levels. However, using the Wide Dynamic Range setting, the whisper might now be 15db while the explosion is 105db, a "Wider" range of audio levels.

As always, depening on your audio source and HT setup, you may or may not notice any difference in the available settings.

Auto Shut-off Workaround. It appears that you can defeat the Auto Shut-off feature by setting the General Settings/Timer: Turn Off option. You can set the Timer: Wake-up option for 1 minute later to keep the unit on virtually 24/7. This can be especially useful if you have the 8300HD connected to a Replay TV or other devices that rely on the 8300HD being on for channel changing, etc.

V/H Resolution Information. If you are using the SA8300HD or the SA8000HD, with rev 1.87.xx or later SARA software, one of the diagnostic pages (pg 30) shows the MPEG decoder input vertical and horizontal resolutions from the cable company or their source as it hits the STB.

Potential Recording Conflicts. There have been reports that "old" scheduled recordings of programs that are no longer on might cause the 8300HD to get confused at some point. This can result in lost recordings or the inability to set up new recordings for the same timeslot. Here is a short explanation (edited) of the problem. YMMV.
Quote:
While trying to record 2 shows at once last night, I couldn't get one of the channels to record at all. Instead, it was recording 1 program that I had scheduled and 1 I had not. When I tried to cancel the one I had not scheduled, the 'yes' button would not work. Also, this recording was not showing up in the recording list (King of Queens was recording, but it was not in the list).

After a few minutes of frustration, I reviewed my list of scheduled recordings to see if I could find a cause. There were a few still in the list for programs that were no longer on, such as Survivor. The schdeduled channel/time for that old recording matched the channel/time of the mystery program currently being recorded even though the program titles did not match.

So, it looks like the 8300HD scheduler got confused somehow and was applying the old scheduled recording channel/time even though the titles did not match in the guide. I did find a new "Survivor" recording in the list, but it was marked with a time of -59 minutes and clicking on it led to a black screen.

I eventually got it worked out (after missing 15 minutes of the show I wanted). The moral of the story is to clean out old scheduled recordings for shows that are no longer on. It looks like the 8300HD can get flaky if they are still in the list (even though they shouldn't affect new recordings).

Macro - Automate Remote Turn On. To automate a remote turn-on and stay on whatever channel you previously had on (instead of a dedicated turn-on channel) without using the power button, go to General Settings/Viewerower On option. In the list of Power On channels, select Last Channel. Now, no matter how you choose to turn the unit on (except when using a dedicated wake up timer), it will go to the last channel viewed. If you want to set an easy macro, make sure that the General Settings/Setower-On Keys option is set to Power and Numeric. Then, in your macro, choose a non-existing channel (such as "000")to turn on the unit, it will turn on, but not change channels.

NOTE: Some versions of the software may react differently when entering a non-existing channel number to turn on the unit. In these instances, some folks have had success by entering the channel number followed by "Last" to tune to the previous channel.

Also, those of you with on/off issues, there are more tricks you can do. Someone mentioned that they can't use channel "0" because it changes to "1", and another says that the guide comes up whenever it's powered on. Use the "EXIT" button to clear commands before they are used. Example: to power on, macro in channel "0" with a single press of "0", then press exit. The channel never changes and the guide data is quickly erased too. The "EXIT" button clears all on-screen graphics and aborts commands any time it's used.

Memory Info. Memory is being asked about again. For the record, here is the memory map for the 8300:
Flash = 512Kb
Application Dram = 64Mb
Media Dram = 32Mb [SD versons have 16Mb Media decoding Dram]
Mpeg Encoding Dram = 16Mb
Non-Volatile Memory = 8Kb
Your cab files for all your recordings are stored in the NVM, along with all your other settings and preferences. The use of favorites, among some other settings, eats up most of this memory. A hard reboot reads off the drive and/or account memory and refreshes the NVM, whereas pulling the power plug alone, does not. This is an extended basic explanation, and not absolute gospel - I didn't write it.
I think cable operators also have the ability to use some of the Media Dram for overlay technologies when the application dram is too full, thus reducing overall PQ.

New Features in software version 1.88.x.x.
NOTE: Some of these may or may not be applicable to your particular cableco.

Enhanced HDD Spin down - After 15 minutes of inactivity between 1:00am and 1:15am, the HDD will spin-down without powering off the STB, and a screen saver with an MSO configurable logo/graphic will be displayed while the HDD is spun-down. If an external SATA HDD is attached to the DVR, it will also spin down when the internal HDD spins down.

Currently recording option - When the user selects a currently recording program from the Recorded List, DVR will always display a Currently Recording Program Options screen with Play from beginning as the default highlighted option.

Kick out to live - Let's say you schedule the recording of a program and go out for dinner. When you get home, you begin watching the recorded program from the beginning while the rest is still recording. When the recording ends, you are no longer 'kicked out' of your viewing.

Live of time shifted video indicator  Added the API for indicating whether user is watching Live or time-shifted video.

Activated the front panel AUX input - Front panel auxiliary input is activated.

Macrovision on AUX input  Turned on the macrovision protection on AUX input.

Return to Live button - While watching a DVR recording playback, pressing the LIVE remote button will tune the last Live TV channel that was previously viewed.

4th FFWD and REW speed  Adds a 4th fast forward and rewind trick mode speed at 128x. A fourth arrow will be displayed on the trick mode banner for each direction.

Broadcast flag  Broadcast flag is activated.

1394 support on 8300HD  1394 port is active on 8300 HD boxes.

Improved picture quality with "Copy to VCR" recording - This was inadvertently broken in version 1.87.19a and then inadvertently fixed in version 1.87.27, which was not widely released. Most users are probably seeing it with version 1.88.x.x, so it has been included in ths list even though it is not a new feature.


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## skanter (May 28, 2003)

I've had the 8300HD with Passport software for a few weeks, and am impressed about how GOOD it is after so many have trshed it as "a piece of junk". While it has a few annoyances, it's recording HD programming fine with two tuners, and is easy to use.

I'll look at S3 when it arrives, but I'm fine for now...


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

workindev said:


> The 8300HD is quite annoying if you are used to Tivo. Some annoyances I've also noted:
> - There is no way to skip to the beginning or end of a recorded program - you have to do a 4x FF or RW


Wrong you can skip to the beginning or end


> - No tick marks on the recording progress


True but if you can't look at it and mentally break it up, then the ticks probable aren't going to help you much anyway


> - Annoying delay for DVR functions. Pausing takes 2-3 seconds, causes the screen to blank out, and then flash back on as a paused image. FF and RW has an annoying lag plus no FF preview like Tivo has to make commercial skipping easy


Have you even used an SA8300HD - it doesn't sound like it as those statements are just wrong


> - I've also not been able to remove channels that I don't have or don't watch from the guide. I have to flip through all available channels on the guide when surfing.


True, but I think there are bigger things to worry about when you can enter the station number and check around the area's your interested in


> - The "Info" data isn't available on recorded shows. When you press info, it comes us a generic "Recorded Program" so you can't see show descriptions, length, etc.


Not exactly true, hit pause then hit Info when playing a program for this information, or when you're browsing the list of recorded programs hit Info when you have one highlighted


> I had to move to an apartment for 1 year and could not put up a dish, so my HR10-250 is sitting in my closet now. As soon as I can, I will be going back to Tivo.


Get off your Arse and learn how to use your equipment and stop the belly aching.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Remove channels from the guide? That's the cable company's deal, not a function of the box. You think the cable company wants people calling up asking "why don't I get channel 701?" when someone at your house has removed it? There ARE favorite channels, though, that you can scan through.


Why would you want channels in the guide that you don't want or don't pay for? That's ludicrous. This capability is a function of the software on the box. Every Tivo and every modern satellite receiver allows you to remove channels from the guide -- channels removed are still accessible by typing in the channel number, unless you enable parental control. Even FiOS uses software on their Motorola DVRs that lets you remove channels you don't want from the program guide. See screenshots here:

http://mysite.verizon.net/fiosdvr/

The average TV viewer watches 20 channels on a regular basis. If you watch 20 channels, why on earth would you want to scroll through 400 channels just to see what is on and upcoming? My guide has just 25 channels in it.



> There ARE favorite channels, though, that you can scan through.


This feature is borderline useless, imo. It doesn't let you create a custom favorites guide, accessible by one button on the remote, as every Tivo and every satellite box released in the past five years lets you do. I use my favorites button to switch to a guide with only the HDTV channels that I receive, so I see only what HDTV programs are on and upcoming in the next few hours.



> No info on recorded programs?? Huh? That's because you've only pressed the info button once. Press it again, and there's your expanded info, sometimes several pages of it.


Don't confuse Pioneer Passport and SARA. I don't know if there is a new version of SARA that offers this feature, but it's not on my box.



> Can't skip forward/back: There is an easy way to skip ahead/back 15 minutes at a pop. It's right in the guide.


Once again, you are confusing Passport with SARA. You can't do this in SARA.



> Wrong you can skip to the beginning or end


Skipping to the beginning is only available on the newest version of SARA, still not available in many areas.



> Have you even used an SA8300HD - it doesn't sound like it as those statements are just wrong


SARA does not have FFW/REW skipback. If you haven't used a Tivo, then you won't understand what he meant. And no, hitting the instant replay button after fast forward on SARA does not even come close to matching the usability of Tivo's skipback design.

Moreover, the responsiveness of FFW and REW on SARA aren't even in the same ballpark with the Tivo, which always responds immediately to trickplay commands and never lags or "queues up" additional REW/FFW with fast button presses.



> Program In Progress Recording Bug Workaround. Most times you can start recording a program you are watching by simply pressing the Record button, editing the settings, and then Accepting them. However, there appears to be a problem when the program you are watching started before midnight and it is after midnight when you want to start the recording. Simply put, nothing happens. The recording doesn't start and the program does not show up in the LIST. We believe there might be a workaround.
> The easiest way to avoid this bug is to simply record the program even if you are going to watch it. This requires you to FF to the point where you want to start watching from, and this can take some time, but it's better than missing the end of the program.





> Watch A Recording In Progress. Stop the current recording and save it (usually during a commercial). Then start a "new" recording to finish the program by pressing the Record button and then press the Pause button. You can now view the first part from the beginning and then view the second part, either in progress or from the beginning after it finishes. While it is annoying to divide the recording into segments, at least you can easily skip to the beginning without rewinding, certainly a useful feature for time-shifting.


This is my main complaint about SARA. I never watch live TV -- everything I watch is timeshifted, so this "revert to live when the recording finishes" is annoying as hell. I'll start recording _House_, tune in to watch it from the beginning 30 minutes later, and then 30 minutes in, the DVR will shut down the playback. I have to start the program over and fast forward to where I was. This is incredibly annoying during the football season, when it can take 2-4 minutes to fast forward back to where I just was in the game.

I'll start watching a 1pm football game at 2:15pm -- fast forwarding as best I could through commercials. At 4pm, I'll be watching [timeshifted] with three minutes left in the game, score tied 21-21...when the recording finishes and the 8300HD boots me out of the recording to live TV, where I see that the final score in overtime was 28-21...thank you! Not! Just ruined the game for me.

Imagine if your DVD player shut down and reset itself every time you reached the mid-point in a movie? No one would accept that behavior...yet somehow it is acceptable on the 8300HD with SARA. Ridiculous.

Another problem with SARA is that it has no way to manage stored recordings -- it has no folders, so you can spend several minutes scrolling through recordings to find what you want. In SARA, you don't get a listing of episode names, so if you are looking for a specific episode (think: I last watched episode x, where is the episode that follows that...), good luck.



> Potential Recording Conflicts. There have been reports that "old" scheduled recordings of programs that are no longer on might cause the 8300HD to get confused at some point. This can result in lost recordings or the inability to set up new recordings for the same timeslot. Here is a short explanation (edited) of the problem. YMMV.
> Quote:
> While trying to record 2 shows at once last night, I couldn't get one of the channels to record at all. Instead, it was recording 1 program that I had scheduled and 1 I had not. When I tried to cancel the one I had not scheduled, the 'yes' button would not work. Also, this recording was not showing up in the recording list (King of Queens was recording, but it was not in the list).


Did I mention that SARA's conflict management is...non-existant? On Passport, you can define priorities to determine which program series are recorded in the event of a conflict; however, you don't get this on SARA. SARA either picks randomly what to record (you have no choice), or it gets "confused" and records nothing. I've had many occasions in the past two years where three series I wanted to record were on at the same time, and the box recorded none of them cause it got "confused."

[On SARA, you get a conflict resolution screen when you try to add a single/manual recording when two previously scheduled recordings exist that conflict, but not when you have multiple series recordings that conflict.]

That brings up yet another fault with the SARA DVR. If it misses a series recording, for whatever reason (be it conflict, or because you cancel it to watch a live program on a different channel), that's it. You've missed that episode. In contrast, the Tivo automatically schedules a new recording for that episode the next time it is showing, without any user intervention. Example:


> You have series recordings setup for _Deadwood_ and _The 4400_ on Sunday Night. You see that your favorite team is on Sunday Night Football. You click the football game. On the SA8300HD with SARA, you are asked which series recording you want to remove entirely from your DVR. On Tivo, you get something different -- it asks you if you want to watch the football game and record a later showing of your series episode; you choose yes, and it automatically schedules a recording for the next showing of that particular episode. You don't miss anything, provided the missed episode is showing again at some point in the next 28 days.


Did I mention there's no way (on SARA) to search the next two weeks of guide listings to find a program with a specific name? With SARA, there's no search functionality at all -- about the most as you can do is sort what is _currently showing_ on 400+ channels in alphabetical order. What is the point of that?

Did I mention there's no buffer on the second tuner with the SA8300HD? You can't pause one channel, switch to another channel, and then switch back and resume watching from where you paused.

Did I mention there's no sports team recordings (team wishlist) on the SA8300HD, to record all the games of your favorite college or pro team regardless of the date, time, and channel they are on?

Did I mention no 30-second skip for commercials on the SA8300HD?


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## Slikkster (Jul 30, 2006)

I'm not confusing anything. If you have Sara vs. Passport, well, dem's da breaks, as they say. I made it clear that there were two implementations of the software platform. Your argument is not with the box (and its electronics), but with the software that drives it. That's a matter for your cable company. 

All I see here (aside from your distinguishing between Sara and Passport) is a trashing of this box. The original poster is a NYC resident, and hence, would be using a Passport box. Therefore, his prospective experience should be judged upon the Passport implementation. Your Sara misgivings, while real, don't apply.

Tivo, as a viable entity, is in trouble. Competitors and cable companies have found their own solutions that integrate the hardware with their own marketing (aka PPV) goals. And let's face it, why did it take a competitor to be the first to offer dual tuning capability on a DVR??? My Series 2 Tivo forces me to watch what I'm recording, unless I run a separate feed to my TV. And people keep talking about an HD Tivo version. Why is this so late to market? So please, let's not trumpet the Tivo as the be all and end all. It's not.

Again, I'm not saying the 8300HD is a perfect box by any stretch. Additionally, I just read where Time Warner wants to get away from both Passport and Sara in favor of their own home grown IPG. We shall see what the future holds there.


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## Lenarro (Mar 4, 2005)

I did RTFM. It is sad that Brighthouse only leaves the remote manual, had to get off my arse to hunt down the 8300 box manual online. I can't mentally break up the two hour progress bar. That is exactly why the tick marks ARE going to help me. The "favorites" list is a big deal to me, as the 30 channels I watch regularly are all over the map. Why should I have to "check around the areas?" At least D* has some rhyme or reason to thier channel lineup grouping. My stomach does not hurt, and I am not loyal to any one technology. The OP wanted to know the differences 'twixt the two, and I gave my opinions. It is worth paying a little more for the Tivo box if you watch lots o' TV. Also, the program guide data on the cable box falls short. Crappy descriptions, doesn't even say if a program is a repeat or not.

Don't be smarmy.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Lenarro said:


> Don't be smarmy.


Exactly. Opinions can be expressed without the 'holier than thou' attitude.


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## Slikkster (Jul 30, 2006)

I'm really not sure how "smarmy" applies to anything said here (check the definition), nor the holier-than-thou comment.

I only responded in this thread because of statments made like "what a piece of junk". How would you characterize that comment? That's just begging for a strong response. 

The OP in NYC asked about the difference between the two boxes. It's become obvious that many people have 8300HD boxes that use the SARA based OS/IPG. Time Warner in NY uses the Passport Echo-based boxes. Therefore, many of the comments/criticisms mentioned here are not necessarily accurate. In order for the OP to make an informed choice, he/she needs accurate info. I don't see how that's "holier-than-thou". 

In my opinion, the OP would be best served by just getting the 8300HD box for now through the cable company, and see how he/she likes it. The Series 3 isn't out yet, right? So, why not just get a few months out of the 8300 and see what you think. You can always cancel it and return the unit without a problem. The more problematic option when the time comes is how to test a series 3 unit without committing to it. 

For those saddled with their 8300HD's and yearning for the new Series3, I would suggest you take a visit to the Avsforum link I posted above in the thread. There's bound to be some tip(s) that can help you out while you wait for the HD Tivo.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

Bkdtv,

Please IM me with your area and cable operator. I am really interested in what version of SARA you're using.

BTW, my responses are in Bold, to Bkdtv's responses which are normal font, and the Italized are previous posters which Bkdtv is responding to (including some of mine)

CCourtney



> _Remove channels from the guide? That's the cable company's deal, not a function of the box. You think the cable company wants people calling up asking "why don't I get channel 701?" when someone at your house has removed it? There ARE favorite channels, though, that you can scan through._
> 
> Why would you want channels in the guide that you don't want or don't pay for? That's ludicrous. This capability is a function of the software on the box. Every Tivo and every modern satellite receiver allows you to remove channels from the guide -- channels removed are still accessible by typing in the channel number, unless you enable parental control. Even FiOS uses software on their Motorola DVRs that lets you remove channels you don't want from the program guide. See screenshots here:
> 
> ...


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## workindev (Oct 13, 2003)

CCourtney said:


> True but if you can't look at it and mentally break it up, then the ticks probable aren't going to help you much anywayp


The tick marks are not to "mentally break it up" - they are useful for moving backwards and forwards quickly in the recorded program. If I want to skip to the 3rd quarter of a recorded game in Tivo, it takes about 5 seconds by skipping in 30 minute chunks. With the 8300HD, you have to manually sift through the entire program to find the spot.


CCourtney said:


> Have you even used an SA8300HD - it doesn't sound like it as those statements are just wrong


Sorry to disappoint you, but I really don't have any incentive to make this kind of stuff up. The DVR functions all have an annoyingly unacceptable delay, and Tivo doesn't.


CCourtney said:


> True, but I think there are bigger things to worry about when you can enter the station number and check around the area's your interested in


In my opinion, having "Hot and Saucy Pizza Girls" on the Adult PPV channel scroll by on the guide when I'm watching TV with my kids is a pretty big thing to worry about. And again, with my HR10-250, I didn't have to worry about it.


CCourtney said:


> Not exactly true, hit pause then hit Info when playing a program for this information, or when you're browsing the list of recorded programs hit Info when you have one highlighted


Nope. Hitting info while playing a recorded show brings up a box that says "Digital Video Recorder Channel". Hit it again and it shows a bigger box that says "Us the Digital Video Recorder Channel to record shows, pause live TV, blah blah blah".


CCourtney said:


> Get off your Arse and learn how to use your equipment and stop the belly aching.


Maybe that's why Tivo is so superior. You don't have to "learn" to use your equipment - it works just like you think it should from the moment you turn it on.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

Workindev,

If you're not making it up, then you have a bad box. There's no visible delay, lag, etc with pausing, ff, rw etc on the SA8300HD box (unlike my Sony DHG-HDD500 which has bad lag/delay issues)

I can understand if they put Adult PPV channels in the middle of a lineup that you'd want it not to be display. Have you considered complaining to the cable company to get it moved. In my cable company those channels are after the HBO, SHO, CIN, .. channels (Analog Channels, Digital Channels, HD Channels, Digital Channels, Pay Channels (HBO etc), Sports Pay Channels, Adult PPV, Some other Pay Channels, Music. They purposefully put it out in lala land. I've got a young Son, I don't want him seeing this garbage either.

You may have to hit Stop instead of pause, then hit INFO, while playing a recorded show. You have the option of hitting play from current location after you do this.

I didn't say TiVo's interface was not superior. Anybody who uses it can tell that the TiVo's interface is superior. That's TiVo's selling point (ability to use even if your brain dead from doing too many beer bongs in college.) But that's not a reason to make false/incorrect statements against SA8300HD, which is what I see happen time and time again on the TiVo forum.

Currently I don't have a really choice if I want the Programming I'm receiving at the Quality level I demand but to go with a non-TiVo DVR. The HD quality on all the digital satellite systems suck, and the SD is even worse. The only area that it's superior to cable is for the analog channels, but we're moving towards digital simulcasting here on TWC Houston (soon to be Comcast).

It's more than worth it, to go with a lower performing interface to get higher performing quality, to me. My mind can take it, my eyeballs can't. I think my signature line speaks for itself. If I didn't think TiVo's interface was better there's no reason in the world I'd be considering paying ~$500 (estimate) for a unit and a monthly service charge that exceeds what I'm paying for SA8300HD box's monthly fees.

The S2 was great when I only had a 32" SD CRT TV, it went on Ebay after I got the SA8300HD.

CCourtney


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

CCourtney,

it is Comcast Arlington. Comcast hasn't deployed the latest versions of SARA in many markets where there is a large installed base of SA8000HD customers. Comcast claims the recent versions cause problems for the 8000HD. I was using the 8300HD box up until last Friday -- and yes, I had switched it out several times.



> So you want the feature, but you don't want it. Which is it. If your cable company provided a good remote there's a favorite button on it. Hit the damn thing and you're in the favorites


Uhh, no. You hit the FAV button on the 8300HD remote and you don't get a guide with your only favorites. It simply alternates / toggles between your favorites. In contrast, pressing the Favorites button on my Verizon FiOS remote gives me a program guide with just ~15 channels.



> Actually while what he described is the Passport, what I described above is for SARA. Two ways to display the info: If watching show hit PAUSE, hit INFO and you got it. While browsing recorded list: Highlight show, Hit INFO. Nothing fancy and it's been around since the beginning of SARA


Like the previous poster indicates, pressing Info on a recording on the Recordings screen, or even while playing or pausing the recording, provides no information.



> Actually the version of SARA has been out for over 1yr. And you have always been able to skip to the end which you complained about not being able to do


Again, there is no skip to beginning option. There is a skip to end function, but how does that help me? It's not like I want to skip to the end of a game and see the score. Now, on some television shows, if I get kicked out of my recording towards the end of the program, I rewind and close my eyes so I don't get spoilers...but honestly, why should I have to do that? Skip-to-end doesn't help if you get kicked out in the middle of the program, as in the example I gave for _House_.



> And there is NO observable delay in performing these operations on the SA8300HD. The statement is a blatent lie


There are dozens of reports of the slow response times and lag with FFW, REW, etc on other forums. There are several in this thread. Sorry, but response time on the SA8300HD with SARA just plain sticks. Using the original remote, it queues up FFW, REW, etc commands constantly and doesn't respond instantly much of the time, which can make commercial skipping difficult. If your box honestly does not exhibit this issue, then there must be multiple revisions of the SA8300HD (some with faster cpus?) or differences in the software.



> I'll admit that that was the way it WAS. The nation has upgraded, when was the last time you've looked at an SA8300HD?


Friday. I'm fairly certain all Comcast affiliates in Virginia (and Maryland) markets use the same version of SARA.


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## Slikkster (Jul 30, 2006)

re: Skip to beginning

In my Passport-box, if I wanted to go to the beginning of the recording, I would just go to the List and restart the show from its listing. How is that different with Sara? I can go to the List at any time, either during a recording or afterwards. It might not be a "one-step" skip, but it's two at most.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> In my Passport-box, if I wanted to go to the beginning of the recording, I would just go to the List and restart the show from its listing. How is that different with Sara? I can go to the List at any time, either during a recording or afterwards.


With SARA, when you select a show (that is still recording) from the list, you are taken to the current live spot in the program. This is the default behavior and you can't change it. The newest SARA software apparently does the same thing, but gives you the option to "skip to the beginning" when you press the stop button. The older version of SARA used in VA, MD, and other areas does not have this "skip to the beginning" option, so you have to rewind to the beginning before you can watch it.

The rewind speed isn't very fast, so it can take 3-5 minutes to rewind to the beginning of a sporting event. Because you have to rewind to watch the program from the beginning, you see all sorts of spoilers (like the score) unless you shut your eyes. Your post above mentions that a faster REW/FFW speed was added in the latest version of SARA.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

bkdtv,



> CCourtney,
> 
> it is Comcast Arlington. Comcast hasn't deployed the latest versions of SARA in many markets where there is a large installed base of SA8000HD customers. Comcast claims the recent versions cause problems for the 8000HD. I was using the 8300HD box up until last Friday -- and yes, I had switched it out several times.
> 
> ...


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> With SARA, when you select a show (that is still recording) from the list, you are taken to the current live spot in the program. This is the default behavior and you can't change it. The newest SARA software apparently does the same thing, but gives you the option to "skip to the beginning" when you press the stop button. The older version of SARA used in VA, MD, and other areas does not have this "skip to the beginning" option, so you have to rewind to the beginning before you can watch it.
> 
> The rewind speed isn't very fast, so it can take 3-5 minutes to rewind to the beginning of a sporting event. Because you have to rewind to watch the program from the beginning, you see all sorts of spoilers (like the score) unless you shut your eyes. Your post above mentions that a faster REW/FFW speed was added in the latest version of SARA.


Actually when you select a program which is being recorded from the recorded list a window pops up giving you the option to - Play from the beginning (This is the default just hit select again to start from the beginning) or scroll to the other options one of which is play from current location. If you tune to the channel it starts at the current location, then you can use the Stop Option to play from beginning if you wish. Also note that the 4th FF mode added is a 128x FF (1hr is 28 seconds of FF time - great for watching a NASCAR race in FF)

CCourtney


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