# LOST - The Constant - 2/28



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

The Black Rock Log once owned by the Hanso Family being bought by Widmore......Nice tie ins....

Could they perhaps ANSWER some questions instead of creating SO many more!!


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## flyers088 (Apr 19, 2005)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Could they perhaps ANSWER some questions instead of creating SO many more!!


That is the best way to start a Lost thread!!!


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Yeah but at least sometime they throw us a bone and at least answer a few.....


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Brain...on...overload...cannot...process...

I'm a LOST addict...but for the love of all, I'm...lost.

Someone please come along and explain this stream of consciousness thing...


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## mattpol (Jul 23, 2003)

WOW! Need to sit alone in silence for at least an hour to digest this. Did I mention? WOWWWW!!!


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Not sure if I can "explain" it but it seems Desmond's consciousness can flow backward and forward thru time. But he can't control it. But he can take knowledge he learns from each timeperiod with him.

I really want to go rewatch the Des episode from last season now... it's on abc.com

I loved the Hasno/Widmore/Black Rock stuff too! So much good stuff in this ep.

Is next week's the last before the self-imposed break before the last 8 episodes for this season?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I didn't like it.

I like episodes that are about the Island, and Ben, and Locke, and Jack and Kate, and Sawyer and the actual 815 people.

Desmond? Meh?

Also, I don't like when the show veers into the mystical, and actual time travel, even if the mind is mystical -- even if they couch in in "physics."

So Not Penny's Boat; they know about Penny and have a picture of her and Desmond; she all of a sudden found out about the boat (right after she spoke to Charlie) and started calling; they're under strict orders not to pick up the phone = it's Penny's Father's Boat -- duh.

But again, I dont like the whole time travel back and forth.

But there were a few cool things. Faraday has possibly gone through time travel himself. Is the Faraday on the Island going through it? WHEN did he write that Desmond was his constant in his notebook? In 1996? Recently? 

Why is Desmond his constant? Does he love Desmond for some reason that hasn't been revealed yet? Is the Faraday on the Island the one in the Past, and he meets up with Desmond again in the future future?


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Yeah but at least sometime they throw us a bone and at least answer a few.....


i think they answered a big one tonight.. when desmond turned the key in the hatch he got hit by a lot of radiation/electromagnetism, and that triggered that he was in the past and future before, explaining the flashes he had with charlie and everything else..

one thing i don't get is the time difference.. if it takes 1 day island time for a 1 hour helicopter ride, then shouldn't 100 days on the island be 100 hours?


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I think maybe we get 2 more weeks?

Anyway, now that I think about it...

If Des actually lived that life in 1996, and he was now in 2004...wouldn't Des from 2004 have remembered all those events from 1996 before "now"?

So, did 1996 happen like that? Wouldn't this end up just being a big loop of memories?

So you can travel mentally through time...but not physically?

I like to think I'm reasonably intelligent, but I'm going in circles with this. I hope most of America isn't as confused. I'm in until the bitter end.


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## mrpope (Jan 13, 2006)

so desmond is like Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse-Five. I'm glad he fixed himself in time. he's one of my favorite characters.


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## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

Well, if you are going to borrow a concept it might as well be from Kurt Vonnegut. When he became "unstuck in time" according to Faraday...my mind immediately flashed to Slaughter House Five and Vonnegut using that exact phrase "unstuck in time" for his main character.

Loved the episode. Love the WTF moments Lost has given us just this season. Cannot wait to see next week!

Edit...D'Oh! I got beat to the Vonnegut reference by one post.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

TiVotion said:


> I think maybe we get 2 more weeks?
> 
> Anyway, now that I think about it...
> 
> ...


The producers have said that they hate time travel shows that have paradoxes.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Great Scott!!!!


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

I don't think it's that hard to understand; 1996 Daniel did a good job explaining it. Personally, I loved the episode, I think they did a good job of keeping the timeline (in both definitions of the term) straight and streamlined. The hour progressed forward with Desmond, regardless of when he was. They made either fade out a good moment, and they built it to feeling like an emotional moment with the phone call at the end.

Did we get any of what Penny said through the static after the statement that she knew about the island?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

I loved it, this was exactly what I look for in Lost!
I'm also the first to admit I always love a Desmond episode, but wow, the whole scene with him finally getting to Penny on Christmas Eve 2004 like he promised 8 years earlier, and telling her he loved her, and always will, wow.

and yes, sap that I am, I cried. (y'all got to have figured out I'm easy to get the waterworks going)

Diane


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Ok. So this is starting to sink in a little. It's like a Quantum Leap kind of thing. Des of the past is leaping into Des of the future. But we don't know where Des of the future is leaping. So it's actually like 2 different "nows" occuring at the same time, for one person.

Or something.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

1996 Desmond is a hunk.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

oh my god my tv just went live and the doctor from the boat is on Eli Stone. talk about weird.


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## michad (Sep 9, 2002)

So Lost will be my first Blu-Ray complete season(s) show purchase. It's official. Before this season's episodes I thought it was too expensive. After tonight, it's a done deal.


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## bqmeister (May 13, 2006)

That hour was quick.
I wasn't looking forward to a Desmond episode, but this really delivered. 
A lot to digest in this one. And one to watch again for sure.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

Cainebj said:


> oh my god my tv just went live and the doctor from the boat is on Eli Stone. talk about weird.


Seems like every new character on Lost this year induces annoying thoughts of "Who's that guy? He looks familiar." followed by a visit to IMDB after the show. 

In this case, it's Marc Vann, the obnoxious Conrad Ecklie on CSI.

However, Eli Stone isn't listed as a credit on IMDB for Vann. Yet, anyway.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

That rocked.

:up: :up: :UP:

I was worried Penny in 2004 with the Christmas tree and presents was going to be married with kids.



Spoiler



Glad they didn't pull that "Castaway" move.


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> I loved it, this was exactly what I look for in Lost!
> I'm also the first to admit I always love a Desmond episode, but wow, the whole scene with him finally getting to Penny on Christmas Eve 2004 like he promised 8 years earlier, and telling her he loved her, and always will, wow.
> 
> and yes, sap that I am, I cried.


Me TOO - as much for how fantastic I thought this week was, as the sentimentality. I started watching late and was so physically invested as everything unfolded, I actually let the commercial breaks run, just to let my heart-rate go down. Great episode.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

michad said:


> So Lost will be my first Blu-Ray complete season(s) show purchase. It's official. Before this season's episodes I thought it was too expensive. After tonight, it's a done deal.


Don't you wish you'd never heard about this show until all the BR discs were available and Santa had them delivered to your doorstep and you could watch the whole series in weeks instead of years?

Misery loves company...and we'll be miserable again when the strike-induced midseason break and season breaks happen.


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

I very much enjoyed this episode as I was watching it. But the more I think about the it, the less I like it. It seems like a gimmicky mess to me, when the show already has enough gimmicks. Yeah it was cool, but after the smoke monster, Jacob, Walt, etc, etc, etc, etc, my patience for more unresolved mindf--k things is running out.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

uncdrew said:


> That rocked.
> 
> :up: :up: :UP:
> 
> I was worried Penny in 2004 with the Christmas tree and presents was going to be married with kids. Glad they didn't pull that "Castaway" move.


Hey! Spoilers! 

(but seriously, I've never seen Castaway!)



ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Don't you wish you'd never heard about this show until all the BR discs were available and Santa had them delivered to your doorstep and you could watch the whole series in weeks instead of years?


A friend of mine is currently recording the current season and watching previous for the first time. He just got into season 2. I'm so jealous that he gets to experience it all so quickly. (Netflix delays is all he has to deal with)

But, he does so SOME things from pop culture shows of the past few years. Like, I told him that season 2 episode 1 would blow his mind and his reply was "it's Desmond!"  I told him he gets no info from me about tonight's ep


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Frakking great episode!


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Holy Jumping Time Frames, Batman! This was way different than before - this was the 1996 Des jumping into himself in 2004. That's why everything flowed in the story. He needed the constant to "reconnect" himself back to his 2004 self. That was Penny's job.

Yeah, you get the feeling that Faraday may have done some personal experimentation. Makes the crying scene when we first saw him take on a whole new possible light, eh brother? He might be doing a little Future Flashdancing himself.

I really liked the part at the end when he thanked Sayid. Nicely done.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

ElJay said:


> I very much enjoyed this episode as I was watching it. But the more I think about the it, the less I like it. It seems like a gimmicky mess to me, when the show already has enough gimmicks. Yeah it was cool, but after the smoke monster, Jacob, Walt, etc, etc, etc, etc, my patience for more unresolved mindf--k things is running out.


I actually have to disagree with you here. After the show ended, I turned to my wife and went "Wow. That was just a KEY episode in the LOST mythology." It's not an additional unresolved mindf--k thing. This episode explained why the island's so damn hard to get to and the show is getting closer to what's all really going on.

I'm glad they acknowledged the Christmas Eve holiday as I was hoping they'd do. Now we have a definite say of what date it is on the island. This makes me impressed on how closely accurate Lostpedia is with their timeline.


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

robbhimself said:


> one thing i don't get is the time difference.. if it takes 1 day island time for a 1 hour helicopter ride, then shouldn't 100 days on the island be 100 hours?


I don't think time moves at a different rate on the island compared to the rest of the world. It seems like there is some "barrier" around the island, and when you cross that there is a time lag of sorts, like we saw with the rocket and the helicopter. Crossing the barrier takes longer than it seems to take while you're doing it, if that makes sense.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> Hey! Spoilers!
> 
> (but seriously, I've never seen Castaway!)


D'oh, sorry.

Yeah, you don't need to watch Castaway now.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> I actually have to disagree with you here. After the show ended, I turned to my wife and went "Wow. That was just a KEY episode in the LOST mythology." It's not an additional unresolved mindf--k thing. This episode explained why the island's so damn hard to get to and the show is getting closer to what's all really going on.
> 
> I'm glad they acknowledged the Christmas Eve holiday as I was hoping they'd do. Now we have a definite say of what date it is on the island. This makes me impressed on how closely accurate Lostpedia is with their timeline.


I agree. I felt this episode answered a ton of questions. At least many I had.

As the show ended I chuckled to myself and thought: "Wow, for a show that was planned to last (perhaps) only one season, they've turned it into quiet a story."


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

The problem is that I'm stuck in the same circular thinking as TiVotion. 

The mouse's consciousness or whatever traveled into the future, was taught the maze (I assume by Faraday) and then returned to complete the maze. But in the future did Faraday actually teach the mouse how to complete the maze, or was he too busy writing stuff on the chalkboard? 

What was Desmond originally doing during that time in 1996 before the 2004 Desmond showed up and started altering what was doing on? Evidently he was doing something else, because he didn't know Penny's the phone number. Why was he doing something else if the 2004 Desmond was back there getting the phone number?

This infinite realities thing or whatever just makes no sense to me and I'm annoyed that they're going down this road.


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## fliptheflop (Sep 20, 2005)

Is it possible that Walt may be doing this exact thing? I wonder who helped them on the boat. Great episode!


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

ElJay said:


> The problem is that I'm stuck in the same circular thinking as TiVotion.
> 
> The mouse's consciousness or whatever traveled into the future, was taught the maze (I assume by Faraday) and then returned to complete the maze. But in the future did Faraday actually teach the mouse how to complete the maze, or was he too busy writing stuff on the chalkboard?


When Desmond "came back" while sitting in the chair, Faraday told him he'd been out for 75 minutes. He must have taught the maze to the mouse during that time.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I enjoyed the episode a lot and plan to rewatch it a few times.

I stopped when Faraday was looking at his journal. One of the pages had e=mc2 in the equation.



dianebrat said:


> I loved it, this was exactly what I look for in Lost!
> I'm also the first to admit I always love a Desmond episode, but wow, the whole scene with him finally getting to Penny on Christmas Eve 2004 like he promised 8 years earlier, and telling her he loved her, and always will, wow.
> 
> and yes, sap that I am, I cried. (y'all got to have figured out I'm easy to get the waterworks going)
> ...


I cried too.



uncdrew said:


> I was worried Penny in 2004 with the Christmas tree and presents was going to be married with kids.


I was worried for a sec, but am very glad they didn't do that.



fliptheflop said:


> Is it possible that Walt may be doing this exact thing? I wonder who helped them on the boat. Great episode!


I thought Walt or Michael would be the ones that were in the medical office on the boat.

And Military Desmond, in the rain, was hawt!!!


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

I loved the ending like all the other gals here seemed to, but I'm not much of a crier, so I didn't. But it was very touching.

I just realized tonight that Frank, the helicopter pilot, is played by Jeff Fahey. {{mental head slap}} I'd been watching these eps seeing his name in the credits and looking for him, but I didn't recognize him until tonight! Man, he's aged since the early 90s. (Makes me wonder if I have too ... nah.)


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## TiMo Tim (Jul 20, 2001)

This week's flaw (I think): when they handed Desmond the phone, did he press a button before talking? There was a



beep.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> D'oh, sorry.
> 
> Yeah, you don't need to watch Castaway now.


Well, it's not Castaway.


Spoiler



It's Cast Away. Wasn't that clever of them?


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

This episode ROCKED! 

I LOVE time travel stuff. Funny that Kates lawyer and the prosecutor were both starring in "Frequency" one of my FAVORITE time travel movies.

I love this show!


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

That was possibly my favorite episode of LOST ever. Great great stuff! :up:


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

betts4 said:


> And Military Desmond, in the rain, was hawt!!!


"I GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GOOOOOO!"

Man this episode ruled, it absolutely is one of the most important episodes in Lost mythology. I also doubt this is the last we'll see of Fisher Stevens, even though he appeared to have died.

Just remember, the time travel is only one element of the greater puzzle. This episode's definitely shown they know what they're doing.

BTW, the doctor... I remember him from The Shield, he and his young wife were murderers. Real psychos. 

Greg


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Best. Episode. EVER.


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## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

That was an excellent episode! Not sure how anyone can complain about that one...

I guess we haven't met Ben's spy on the ship yet?


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Roadblock said:


> That was an excellent episode! Not sure how anyone can complain about that one...
> 
> I guess we haven't met Ben's spy on the ship yet?


Considering the "spy" is also a "friend" of Desmond and Sayid, I think it's pretty clear who it is.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Could they perhaps ANSWER some questions instead of creating SO many more!!


Dude, they just answered a ton of questions!

1) We now know why Desmond, the guy who happened by chance to end up on the island, just happens to have his girlfriend looking for him, _right then_, instead of sometime during the last 3 years.

2) We now know why she'd be so eager to reach him even after he dumped her.

3) We know why Daniel was forgetful.

4) We know who Minkowski is.

5) We know why Minkowski wasn't answering the phone, and why they didn't want him answering the phone.

6) We know why Desmond got kicked out of the military (I think). Didn't he go AWOL? And then go to military prison because of it? Wasn't that the AWOL right there?

7) We know why only Desmond is having these flashes, and not everyone else - exposure to radiation from turning the failsafe key, combined with the island. (Except, it turns out, Dan was probably having flashes too).

8) We know why the boat hadn't heard from the helicopter crew.

9) We know for a fact what day it is, off the island.

You know, enough answering complaints about the episode. 

I literally was in awe during this episode.. It was awesome.

"I was in a ferris wheel!"


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## bpurcell (Mar 16, 2005)

First, great episode. That phone call between Desmond and Penelope was just a classic moment.

One thing NOT answered by this episode...who is Ben's mole on the ship? My assumption is whoever opened the medical door is the mole, but is it someone we've seen so far or someone else. I'm still going for my longshot hope that Michael is on the boat and Ben's mole.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

This episode rocked. I was out of breath at the end. Amazing TV.

One minor thing, that I thought was hokey: the whole "you have to find something to anchor you that exists on both ends" thing. Seemed a bit cheesy and illogical and forced in there for an emotional scene. But, you know, it was a good scene and I don't mind all that much.

I was _sure_ Desmond was going to tell Penny all about the boat and the island in the South Pacific and the date and everything, and that would clearly explain why she set those guys up on one of the poles listening for all that time. But they didn't go there.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

HOLY Sh*t! Wow. I was SO glued to the television. Amazing stuff. I was just telling a friend today how I really like this season a LOT. Even more so now!!!

I've read theories that


Spoiler



the island is on top of a worm hole.


 This episode really makes me wonder if that is true.

I was thinking that maybe Desmond's consciousnesses would trade places and that his future self would go to his past self. But I guess not. So what happens to his future (present) self while all of this is going on?


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

atrac said:


> HOLY Sh*t! Wow. I was SO glued to the television. Amazing stuff. I was just telling a friend today how I really like this season a LOT. Even more so now!!!
> 
> I've read theories that
> 
> ...


I don't think 1996 Desmond and 2004 Desmond switched places. I think that 1996 Desmond leaped in and out of 1996 and 2004 throughout the episode until he made contact with Penny in 2004. Then, as he said to Sayid he was "perfect."


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## S. Stiffler (Oct 7, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Dude, they just answered a ton of questions!
> 
> 2) We now know why she'd be so eager to reach him even after he dumped her.
> 
> ...


jkeegan, I'm afraid to ask...but I don't know those answers. I'd like to hear them though! (I did edit your quote...)

(I don't post much here, but have been watching from the start).


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

scooterboy said:


> When Desmond "came back" while sitting in the chair, Faraday told him he'd been out for 75 minutes. He must have taught the maze to the mouse during that time.


Actually, no. Desmond didn't *consciousness-travel* _out_ for the 75 minutes until sometime after the experiment was over. We don't see it happen but we do see him *come back* in the second scene in Faraday's lab room.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok..

1) Note that the frequency Dan needed to use was 2342 (the last two numbers). Also note that when he turned on the machine, it emitted a purplish light.

2) Hey.. wait a second.. if time isn't perceived correctly on the island, how come the date in the boat calendar was 12/24/2004, and that's the same day that it "should" be based on the number of days we've spent in island time?

3) Great that now we know why Penny happened to be trying to communicate right around the few days when Charlie happened to turn off the jamming signal.. Before, it was like "after 3 years, she just happens to be sitting at her computer/terminal/videophone, such that she got a signal the second that Charlie let the signal down?".. Now we know why - she's eagerly waiting for the 24th, and knows about the island.

4) At first I knew immediately it wasn't a flashback or flashforward (VERY happy I didn't read that horrible spoiler garbage from the end of the last thread) because there was no "swoooooooosh" sound.. there was no sound at all.. he silently and immediately went back to his bed in the barracks.. The look on his face made me say out loud "he remembers! He remembers the helicopter!". Especially with it feeling like he remembered the hatch in the previous time episode while he was lying on the floor in red paint, it was good to see a clarification/verification of that, and the extra info that he gets confused and starts forgetting stuff.

5) About 5-6 times I yelled "Shut up Jack, you %$#%Ing idiot!" at the TV.

6) I was almost a bit surprised that they made it to the freighter at all, when we first saw it.

7) At first we had to rewind a few times to see if the guy with the tatoo on the freighter (Keamy from Vegas, not Omar from Florida) was the same guy Desmond talked to about his "dream" in the truck on the miliary base in 1994, but at the end we determined it probably wasn't.

8) I was glad they had him write on his hand, because I knew there'd be people that didn't get that it wasn't his "body" jumping back in time - he was (and has always been, now) just "unstuck" from time, perceiving different times at different times (Slaughterhouse Five).

(Obviously, I was also _very_ relieved that he didn't have it on his hand in 1994)

9) I absolutely flipped out when Dan told him he had to go to Oxford and find him. Too damned cool.

10) I liked that Dan said something like "so in the future, I would have remembered you coming here, right?", Desmond said no, and Dan seemed surprised by that.

11) The freighter guys don't know where they are. "We last ported in Fiji. So at least we know we're still in the Pacific".

12) Wanna see a great look from an actor? Go back and watch when Minkowski first talks and says "Hey! Hey.. It's happening to you too, isn't it?". PERFECTLY acted scene - caught his enthusiasm/whatever perfectly.

13) "See, Ray? I'm _not_ crazy. It's happening to him, too, Ray."

14) When the doc hit the alarm button, and it made the alarm sound (which was the same alarm sound that the hatch made, by the way), Desmond covered his ears like "Oh Christ No!", even though I don't think he remembered at that point..

15) Ah, ok, got it.. Didn't catch this the first time around.. When Dan tells Desmond to tell 1994-Dan that the machine should be set to 2.342, oscillating at 11 hertz, he wasn't giving himself any new information.. It's something that the old him would have found out in a few hours anyway (2.342 was in his journal already).. He just wanted to tell himself something about his experiment so that previous him would believe it was Desmond. Originally I'd caught that he wanted his previous self to believe Desmond, but thought he'd wanted his previous self to believe Desmond SO he could have Desmond tell him to set the machine to 2.342.. but instead, the setting on the machine was almost inconsequential - he'd have figured it out soon anyway (it's in his journal). His ONLY goal was to get himself to trust Desmond. Why? So Desmond could be _his_ constant, helping him (Dan) keep from jumping around, himself.

16) Note that when Desmond is standing outside the apartment after leaving Penny, and they cinematically show us present and past, in the past outside her flat he seems to feel better (and even look better) - like he just somehow "felt" some small bit of things having become more stable, or "fixed". He had a similar look in the present after that too, I think.

17) Poor Eloise.

18) At Oxford, the paper he hands to the guy in the yellow sweater says "Thesis(?) on Quantum Theory". I wonder if that was Alvar Hanso? Maybe DeGroot? Dan was saying "Not a single piece of original thinking..." Ah, nope, his name is Mr. Hollister. He said "The concept of 'original'.. the opposite of 'derivitive'.".. Clearly just a poor/mediocre student.

19) When he thought it was a prank, he said a great line (that probably reflects the writers thoughts): "Time paradox - so uninspired".


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

S. Stiffler said:


> jkeegan, I'm afraid to ask...but I don't know those answers. I'd like to hear them though! (I did edit your quote...)
> 
> (I don't post much here, but have been watching from the start).


2) We now know why she'd be so eager to reach him even after he dumped her.
answer: because he contacted her after that, before going on the solar race around the world.. he went to her house, at least got her to let him in, broke the ice a bit, told her he needed her, that things weren't over between them, and that eight years from then, on chrismas eve, he'd call her.
Before seeing this episode, we thought the last time we saw her was when he dumped her (she'd be a stalker to look for him after that). Now, he drops that in her lap, and leaves. How could she not be thinking about him after that?

3) We know why Daniel was forgetful.
Answer: For the same reason Desmond is.. Daniel has had lots of exposure to radiation (20 times a day, at least back then).. How he's near the island, and doesn't remember things (same as Desmond and Minkowski).. That was enough reason to believe that Daniel, too, was jumping around in time, and if you still weren't convinced, the absolute nail in the coffin is his line in the journal (from way back then): "If anything goes wrong, Desmond Hume will be my constant". So, he's jumping around (or at least was until he established Desmond as an anchor in the past too). And after jumps, as we've seen, people don't remember much.

4) We know who Minkowski is.
Answer: The guy on the boat, who was the radio operator, and who also is unstuck in time like Desmond is.

5) We know why Minkowski wasn't answering the phone, and why they didn't want him answering the phone.
Answer: Because he was having episodes and they locked him up in sick bay and started giving him injections.

7) We know why only Desmond is having these flashes, and not everyone else - exposure to radiation from turning the failsafe key, combined with the island. (Except, it turns out, Dan was probably having flashes too).
(That was the answer right there - he was having flashes because of exposure to radiation from turning the failsafe key, in combination with some strange property of the island. I don't think they will (or should) say "WHY" that makes you unstuck - just that it does, and that people have observed and studied that to better understand it. What I was saying mainly is that now we know why Desmond had flashes and not, say, Bernard or Artz.. Desmond was at the heart of a huge magnetic anomoly in the island, and turned the failsafe key (which caused the sky to turn purple, so it probably did something severe to him too - knock him out of time).. no one else was where he was.

8) We know why the boat hadn't heard from the helicopter crew.
Answer: Because the island people's perception of time isn't the same as actual, off-island time.


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Ok..
> 
> 3) Great that now we know why Penny happened to be trying to communicate right around the few days when Charlie happened to turn off the jamming signal.. Before, it was like "after 3 years, she just happens to be sitting at her computer/terminal/videophone, such that she got a signal the second that Charlie let the signal down?".. Now we know why - she's eagerly waiting for the 24th, and knows about the island.


Penny said she heard from Charlie 3 years ago. ??

I wonder how long Roosou (sp) has really been on the island?
17 years at least, because Alex is 17. But, if that's true and time moves faster off the island, I would have expected that she got there a LONG TIME AGO and the technology on the island would not be so advanced (radio tower)


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> 4) We know who Minkowski is.
> 
> 5) We know why Minkowski wasn't answering the phone, and why they didn't want him answering the phone.
> 
> "I was in a ferris wheel!"


I want to know if he was on the Ferris wheel with his friend Gary.


I have to echo the "Jack, shut up!" sentiments.
You already know that weird s$$t happens on this island. Why do you keep interupting the guy with the answers?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

danieljanderson said:


> Penny said she heard from Charlie 3 years ago. ??
> 
> I wonder how long Roosou (sp) has really been on the island?
> 17 years at least, because Alex is 17. But, if that's true and time moves faster off the island, I would have expected that she got there a LONG TIME AGO and the technology on the island would not be so advanced (radio tower)


Sorry, forgot we knew how many years it was. 2004 - 1996 = 8 years.

Wait.. Now I'm confused. I thought Desmond had been sitting in the hatch for 3 years (off the top of my head). Anyway my point was just that all of this time she could have been trying to reach him, but now she does.. Turns out, the reason, is because he told her when she'd talk to him.

Yeah I'm confused too by the fact that the calendar on the boat says 12/24/2004 (while that's what the island time should be too).

..Jeff


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

Random thought -- is it possible that the "sickness" Danielle described in Season 1 is the same as Minkowski's "sickness"?


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> Random thought -- is it possible that the "sickness" Danielle described in Season 1 is the same as Minkowski's "sickness"?


FANTASTIC catch.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

data: The Black Rock set sail from Portmouth, England, March 22nd (my daughter Emily's birthday! [edit: oops, no, thought I saw/typed May 22nd, which is Emily's, and Cara's is March 21 - no hit.  ]), 1845, on a trading mission to the kingdom of Siam, when she was tragically lost at sea.

The journal up for auction was the journal of the ship's First Mate, which was discovered among the artifacts of pirates on (something) Matagascar seven years later. (The binding says "LEDGER").

Tovard Hanso is the seller. It's lot 2342. Widmore buys it, for 380,000 pounds. There was a bidder on the phone, too.

Right at the end of the auction scene, the next item up for bid is being discussed, and the last caption reads "..possession of Charlies Dickens when he died. We open the bidding on this lot.."

What did Widmore mean by "It's not _me_ who hates you", if he didn't mean that Penny was made at him?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

No question about it, we're gonna have to see Minkowski at some point in some future episode.. The ferris wheel line is good enough, but his last words are "I can't get back!!!".. I get the feeling that scene will look particularly cool later.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> What did Widmore mean by "It's not _me_ who hates you", if he didn't mean that Penny was made at him?


I thought he did mean that she hates him now and he said "let her tell you herself" or something to that effect. And he gave the address because he was convinced she wouldn't take him back?


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> 9) I absolutely flipped out when Dan told him he had to go to Oxford and find him. Too damned cool.


Totally. I just loved the time-out-of-joint connection _and_ the fact that Dan is a scientist first and part of *the team* second.



> 15)... His ONLY goal was to get himself to trust Desmond. Why? So Desmond could be _his_ constant, helping him (Dan) keep from jumping around, himself.


Great expression on Dan's face while thumbing through his journal and finally spotting his *note-to-self*. I found the coming full-circle and completing their interaction so satisfying.



> 16) Note that when Desmond is standing outside the apartment after leaving Penny, and they cinematically show us present and past, in the past outside her flat he seems to feel better (and even look better) - like he just somehow "felt" some small bit of things having become more stable, or "fixed". He had a similar look in the present after that too, I think.


Caught that too and thought it was just perfect!

One thing did have me wondering, after the fact... if Minkowski and the guy who was with him in the tender experienced such pronounced effects by their close proximity to the island, why wasn't Desmond effected similarly when he first washed up on the island? Also, didn't he subsequently leave on [his?] boat for a period of time and comment on his return that he'd been sailing in circles for [however long] but getting nowhere? (or am I mis-remembering the second example?)

..................................
Hey - March 22nd... my daughter's b'day too!


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## emandbri (Jul 5, 2004)

Cainebj said:


> 1996 Desmond is a hunk.


Interesting, I was thinking the opposite! I like 2004 Desmond, 1996 Desmond to me is ordinary. 

As for Cast Away, I thought it had already been decided that after a certain amount of time if you haven't seen it too bad! Is it a year? six months? Cast Away was 8 years ago no need for spoiler tags!


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

avery said:


> One thing did have me wondering, after the fact... if Minkowski and the guy who was with him in the tender experienced such pronounced effects by their close proximity to the island, why wasn't Desmond effected similarly when he first washed up on the island? Also, didn't he subsequently leave on [his?] boat for a period of time and comment on his return that he'd been sailing in circles for [however long] but getting nowhere? (or am I mis-remembering the second example?)


Desmond didn't get his massive dose of radiation until he was right on top of the failsafe when the Hatch blew. Immediately afterwards he started to get flashes of the future.


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

I just read through the posts and saw a lot of concern about paradox and not understanding how LOST timetravel was working. But i thought it was pretty clear (and jkeegan pointed out) that the past is constant. You can't change the past. From any perspective we see, Desmond always met with Faraday in 1997 - Faraday noted it in his journal - however it is a bit lucky for paradoxes that radiation exposure prevents Faraday from remembering much.

Desmond always went AWOL to see Faraday and to see Penny, but when the Desmond became "fixed" in time, presumably some of the details faded, much like the "dream" of the helicopter did the first time. Hence Desmond not really remembering his trips to the future.

His consciousness is unstuck in time. It's very much modeled after Vonnegut and very much doesn't fit into rules set by _Quantum Leap_ or a _Back to the Future_. Although I can't say how the old woman ties in from his last "not" flashback.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

avery said:


> One thing did have me wondering, after the fact... if Minkowski and the guy who was with him in the tender experienced such pronounced effects by their close proximity to the island, why wasn't Desmond effected similarly when he first washed up on the island? Also, didn't he subsequently leave on [his?] boat for a period of time and comment on his return that he'd been sailing in circles for [however long] but getting nowhere? (or am I mis-remembering the second example?)


On top of what Vito said, I wonder what the loss of the Swan Station did to electromagnetism on the island. Things may be a little out of control on that front, making the situation worse.


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## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

Great epsiode! The scene with Desmond and Penny was very well done.

I liked the bit with Faraday and Desmond in Oxford, when Faraday puts on the lead vest for protection, and Desmond asks him "What about your head?" Faraday's "oh yeah!" look was priceless...

OK I know everything is off as far as time is concerned, but simply given time zones, if it was Dec. 24th in the south Pacific, wouldn't it likely still not have been Christmas Eve in England where Penny was? Aren't they past the International Date Line?


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

Vito the TiVo said:


> Desmond didn't get his massive dose of radiation until he was right on top of the failsafe when the Hatch blew. Immediately afterwards he started to get flashes of the future.


Yes. I'm aware of that. But I wasn't posing a question about what we already know set Desmond on this course... it was a "why not" observation.

Minkowski and his fellow crewmember never even set foot on the island.[he said they just wanted to see the island but when the other guy started acting crazy they turned back] They were severely effected by the relatively brief and minimal exposure in approaching the island.

Desmond, in contrast, was fine until he turned the failsafe key. Yet he had more and longer exposure to the area around the island than Minkowski and friend did. [via washing up on the island after hitting a storm during his race attempt - sailing in circles around the island for a period of time, shortly after the hatch was blown up Locke & company]

It was fine when all we had as a cause was the activation of the failsafe and the hatch's implosion... but now we know that it takes a lot less to send someone into *time-flashing* mode.

It does seem inconsistant that Desmond wouldn't also have suffered the effects earlier on. It certainly doesn't ruin anything for me - it's just surprising. Maybe Desmond's earlier actions released a higher level of radiation than was present previously... yeah, that sounds good.

*Delta 13* - skipped reading the early morning posts [for the east coast!]...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

> Hey - March 22nd... my daughter's b'day too!


Oops, misread/typed.. Thought I saw May 22nd (Emily's birthday) or March 21st (Cara's). No hit.  Edited post.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

re: delta, (iPhone sucks for posting a/quotes - no text selection)

Minkowski was the radio operator (maybe his pal was too), which would also expose you to radiation. You need both - radiation plus proximity to the island, to get knocked out of time. (Dan made the mouse do it too, without the island's properties, but he had a machine tuned to 2.342 @11hz that also emitted radiation).

Prior to key turning, Des wasn't exposed to radiation, just the island. After radiation, both conditions were met.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

I can't come up with an explaination of how exactly it gets them off the island, but it would be wild if we found out that the "Ocean 6" have really just time jumped to the future as a group. And when they speak to each of "going back", they're not talking about hopping on a plane/boat back to the island, they're talking about going back in time to when they were on the island.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> 6) We know why Desmond got kicked out of the military (I think). Didn't he go AWOL? And then go to military prison because of it? Wasn't that the AWOL right there?


Minor quibble here...he had two days' leave.

But yes...anybody who doesn't think that they're starting to pile on the answers isn't paying attention.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Along the line of why Desmond travels as he does and linking to Rousseau's mention of the sickness.....

Is it not possible everyone is jumping but that only those exposed to the large amounts of radiation can perceive it? So for instance, all the flashbacks and forwards are jumps in time of consciousness. I doubt it but you never know....



Just a great great episode. I agree with an earlier post.......I have not considered Blue Ray yet. I purchased a 720p TV becuase of that. My thinking is also that I don't know where I would start in considering to replace DVD with BDs. But a complete series set of Lost on Blue Ray could easily push me.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Wait.. Now I'm confused. I thought Desmond had been sitting in the hatch for 3 years (off the top of my head). Anyway my point was just that all of this time she could have been trying to reach him, but now she does.. Turns out, the reason, is because he told her when she'd talk to him.


Also, Minkowski mentioned that she had been constantly trying to call the boat and they had ignored her. I wondered if she was still trying to call the boat when Charlie unjammed the blocking signal and her call to the boat ended up going to the Looking Glass instead.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Ok, to me that was a confusing episode. I will have to go back and watch it again.

However, I do have one comment about the fact that it was Christmas Eve off the island and apparently on the island. I don't think that time passes any different on the island than off the island. One day on the island is still one day off the island. However, something about the magnetic field (or whatever field) that surrounds the island only warps time when passing it through it. To the people in the Helicoptor it appeared the flight only took 30 minutes, but we know it took about a day (as perceived by both the people on the boat and the island). The same can be shown with the Daniel's rocket. The rocket only travel for a minute (it's perception), but actually traveled for over 30 minutes (real time.)


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## Scott Stevens (Apr 12, 2000)

Hermann Minkowski (June 22, 1864 &#8211; January 12, 1909) was a Lithuanian-born German mathematician, of Jewish descent, who created and developed the geometry of numbers and who used geometrical methods to solve difficult problems in number theory, mathematical physics, and the theory of relativity.

Didn't Dan have a page with some geometrical-type notes in his journal?


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Sorry, forgot we knew how many years it was. 2004 - 1996 = 8 years.
> 
> Wait.. Now I'm confused. I thought Desmond had been sitting in the hatch for 3 years (off the top of my head). Anyway my point was just that all of this time she could have been trying to reach him, but now she does.. Turns out, the reason, is because he told her when she'd talk to him.
> 
> ...





danieljanderson said:


> Penny said she heard from Charlie 3 years ago. ??
> 
> I wonder how long Roosou (sp) has really been on the island?
> 17 years at least, because Alex is 17. But, if that's true and time moves faster off the island, I would have expected that she got there a LONG TIME AGO and the technology on the island would not be so advanced (radio tower)





jkeegan said:


> 2) Hey.. wait a second.. if time isn't perceived correctly on the island, how come the date in the boat calendar was 12/24/2004, and that's the same day that it "should" be based on the number of days we've spent in island time?


Again, I think people are misinterpreting what was shown in the last few episodes. I believe "island-time" is exactly the same as the rest of the world, as confirmed by the calendars we saw and how they correspond to how much time has passed on the island. The time distruption seems to come from a barrier (or field, or whatever) surrounding the island. Passing through that barriers takes longer than what is perceived by those doing it. That's why the helicopter seemed to take just a few minutes to get through it from the point of view of the people flying in it, but took over a day from the point of view of everyone else on the island and the boat. The same with Daniel's test rocket. It seemed to take the rocket about 30 minutes of "real time" to pass through the barrier.

Now why does one take over a day and the other only 30 minutes? Not sure. Maybe partially because the rocket is faster but I don't think that explains it all. There might be a difference in how much time is distorted when passing through the barrier when going to the island versus when leaving the island. And I'm pretty sure the exact heading makes a difference somehow, too.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I have some silly theories but who knows? It's Lost and maybe I'll be right with at least one...
And you guys can probably disprove some of them - if any are smeeked, I apologize, it's early, I haven't read all the posts.

~Daniel protected himself from the radiation because radiation or magnetic forces trip your brain in to time travel.
He exposed Eloise (the rat) to some radiation and there she went. Desmond was exposed. George said that as they got closer to the island he started tripping.
I suspect that is why Daniel had a caretaker. Note when he told Desmond to be careful crossing the street. Obviously,once it starts it seems impossible to control when you "leave." I imagine it's hard to have a job or a life if you just up and go from time to time. As we saw with Desmond in the military. For a professor it may be easier to cover the displacement you feel. I was thinking it could almost be explained away as a mild form of epilepsy or even a brain tumor.

---I'm thinking Richard is a key traveler. Could he have mastered this enough to go back in time and bring say a live Christian? Or Cooper?
I thought that this may be why Jack is so tortured in the end. He knows that his a-hole dad may have been spared and wants to go "back" and save Claire. May be why he can't look at that baby.

--could the time difference be why wounds heal faster on the island?


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

scooterboy said:


> When Desmond "came back" while sitting in the chair, Faraday told him he'd been out for 75 minutes. He must have taught the maze to the mouse during that time.





avery said:


> Actually, no. Desmond didn't *consciousness-travel* _out_ for the 75 minutes until sometime after the experiment was over. We don't see it happen but we do see him *come back* in the second scene in Faraday's lab room.


I don't get how our two recollections are in conflict.

1) Des watched the mouse go through the maze. Faraday said he would be teaching the mouse the maze in another hour.

2) Des goes to the future again. When he comes back, Faraday said that he had to put him in the chair because he collapsed.

3) The mouse is dead. Faraday said Des had been gone for 75 minutes. Ergo, he had to have taught the maze to the mouse while Des was gone.

Why does my version conflict with yours?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

betts4 said:


> --could the time difference be why wounds heal faster on the island?


I don't think so. One the survivors had cancer and Locke was paralyzed from the waste down.

There are other things about the island besides the time displacement affect that we haven't been fully told about yet.

This was a great episode. I'm not sure I trust anything about people on the boat. With the exception of Faraday. He seems ok to me. The rest are very evasive when asked good questions.

I'd love to know who destroyed the equipment in the communications room and who opened the sickbay door for them.


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Great episode! 

Although I always get a bit tweaked when things happen so easily that never would in real life, like when the group just simply walked into the communications room w/o being caught and Sayid was able to miraculously patch together a telephone that was easliy able to dial straight through to London with just a battery...oh well..that's how it is sometimes I guess..gotta do what ya gotta do to move the story forward.

Anyway it was a great ep, way more than I expected.

On a goofy side note, the actor that played doc that was on the boat was also on Eli Stone that comes on right after LOST..it was kinda weird seein him in two different rolls back to back.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> But there were a few cool things. Faraday has possibly gone through time travel himself. Is the Faraday on the Island going through it? WHEN did he write that Desmond was his constant in his notebook? In 1996? Recently?
> 
> Why is Desmond his constant? Does he love Desmond for some reason that hasn't been revealed yet? Is the Faraday on the Island the one in the Past, and he meets up with Desmond again in the future future?


Faraday KNEW that he would interact w/ Desmond in 2004, and he knows him in 1996, so he wrote that in 1996 after he met Desmond because he KNEW he would see him again and could use him as a constant on the island/boat.

Seemed simple enough to me


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

According to the lostpedia timeline, it should have been December 26, 2004, not December 24. So we have three possibilities: the show lost track, the lostpedia contributors lost track (or perhaps there were some ambiguities along the way as to what day it was) or it actually is 12/26 on the island and 12/24 off the island.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

spikedavis said:


> I don't think 1996 Desmond and 2004 Desmond switched places. I think that 1996 Desmond leaped in and out of 1996 and 2004 throughout the episode until he made contact with Penny in 2004. Then, as he said to Sayid he was "perfect."


Yeah, I'm leaning toward the 1996 Desmond being the "base" Desmond. That's why he didn't know Sayid or how he got there.

But, I don't think we know for sure that "perfect" meant that now he remembers everything and is all synched up, or simply that he's not going to die of a nosebleed. Guess we'll have to wait and see.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> Faraday KNEW that he would interact w/ Desmond in 2004, and he knows him in 1996, so he wrote that in 1996 after he met Desmond because he KNEW he would see him again and could use him as a constant on the island/boat.
> 
> Seemed simple enough to me


Yeah, Faraday needed something/someone that he knew would be available as his constant on the island. That's how I took it.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Alfer2003 said:


> Great episode!
> 
> Although I always get a bit tweaked when things happen so easily that never would in real life, like when the group just simply walked into the communications room w/o being caught and Sayid was able to miraculously patch together a telephone that was easliy able to dial straight through to London with just a battery...oh well..that's how it is sometimes I guess..gotta do what ya gotta do to move the story forward.
> 
> Anyway it was a great ep, way more than I expected.


Well they did have help - which of course raises the question, from whom?


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## GameGuru (Dec 12, 2003)

I have an observation. This time travel has been explained that it is just their consciousness jumping around and that makes me think of Jacob. In respect to this maybe Jacob isn't a ghost or phantom or whatever but maybe someone who, instead of his consciousness that is "unstuck from time", maybe his entire person is "unstuck."


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

GameGuru said:


> I have an observation. This time travel has been explained that it is just their consciousness jumping around and that makes me think of Jacob. In respect to this maybe Jacob isn't a ghost or phantom or whatever but maybe someone who, instead of his consciousness that is "unstuck from time", maybe his entire person is "unstuck."


Eww.. Maybe Jacob is someone that we already know... And he has knowledge of the future events. He works kinda like a broken oracle.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Wow, wow, wow. 
I have read all the posts but I am incapable of processing it all and putting into words. But I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and cried like a baby at the end. When Desmond was calling Penny, I thought that she was taking foooorrrrreeeevvvvveeeeer to pick up... very suspenseful.

I have a few responses:


TiVotion said:


> Ok. So this is starting to sink in a little. It's like a Quantum Leap kind of thing. Des of the past is leaping into Des of the future. But we don't know where Des of the future is leaping. So it's actually like 2 different "nows" occuring at the same time, for one person.


I agree with the Quantum Leap idea, because i guess it's easier for me to understand. I'm not familiar with the Slaughterhouse Five reference, if someone can explain.



Philly Bill said:


> This episode ROCKED!
> 
> I LOVE time travel stuff. Funny that Kates lawyer and the prosecutor were both starring in "Frequency" one of my FAVORITE time travel movies.


I mentioned this in last weeks thread and no one was jumping out of their seats like me when I said that the lawyer's character name in Frequency was named *Jack Shepard! *



jlb said:


> Along the line of why Desmond travels as he does and linking to Rousseau's mention of the sickness.....


I thought that too, that it was linked to 'the sickness,' because why else would the doctor be injecting Minkowski with something, but to tell the audience _something. _


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> 2) We now know why she'd be so eager to reach him even after he dumped her.
> answer: because he contacted her after that, before going on the solar race around the world.. he went to her house, at least got her to let him in, broke the ice a bit, told her he needed her, that things weren't over between them, and that eight years from then, on chrismas eve, he'd call her.
> Before seeing this episode, we thought the last time we saw her was when he dumped her (she'd be a stalker to look for him after that). Now, he drops that in her lap, and leaves. How could she not be thinking about him after that?
> 
> ...


2) But this raises the obvious time-travel paradox questions. We know that 2004 Daniel didn't know that Desmond would/had visited him in 1996. Therefore, we should conclude that Desmond and Penny (up until last night) didn't [know that Desmond would]/[remember that Desmond did] come back to Penny's new house and get her phone number. So when we saw Penny come to meet Desmond at the stadium, we have to think that she had no memory of him having come to her house that night. So that wouldn't necessarily be _the reason[/] she stayed in contact with him. Of course, when she was on the phone with him, she certainly seemed to be expecting his call. But did that memory just pop into her head?

8) Yes, but the conversation is in real-time. I think the difference in perception only applies to travel to and from the island. There seems to be some sort of barrier surrounding the island and time is compressed or dilated while traveling through it, but it returns back to normal and re-synchs after you cross it._


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

spikedavis said:


> Considering the "spy" is also a "friend" of Desmond and Sayid, I think it's pretty clear who it is.


The pilot?


jkeegan said:


> Ok..
> 2) Hey.. wait a second.. if time isn't perceived correctly on the island, how come the date in the boat calendar was 12/24/2004, and that's the same day that it "should" be based on the number of days we've spent in island time?


Time IS perceived correctly on the island - that was one of the things they let us know with this episode (it's the same date there as outside the island). It is only when you travel to and from the island that time is somehow extended.

The thing there though is that it implies that the flash forwards we saw last week with Kate and Aaron, where Aaron is shown as what seems to be at least 2 years old, take place at least 2-3 years after the current island time. So does it take that long for them to get rescued? Or did it take that long to get her on trial (which I doubt)? Or do they end up travelling in time, delaying their arrival off island somehow?


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

"Don't try to make any calls to Baghdad. The phones can only call each other." Frank to Sayid LOL


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

This is probably irreverent to this episode... but Jeff125va mentioned the stadium and I had forgotten about the interaction between Jack and Desmond...can someone remind me if they ever remembered each other once they 'met up' on the island. 

I agree with a previous post, this makes me want to watch the Desmond episode again.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

MickeS said:


> The pilot?
> 
> Time IS perceived correctly on the island - that was one of the things they let us know with this episode (it's the same date there as outside the island). It is only when you travel to and from the island that time is somehow extended.
> 
> The thing there though is that it implies that the flash forwards we saw last week with Kate and Aaron, where Aaron is shown as what seems to be at least 2 years old, take place at least 1-2 years after the current island time. So does it take that long for them to get rescued? Or did it take that long to get her on trial (which I doubt)? Or do they end up travelling in time, delaying their arrival off island somehow?


I have no doubt that it would take that long to get Kate to trial. It routinely takes 1+ years for people to go to trial on similar charges, and I can only imagine that Kate's situation made for a more complicated process which might easily have taken longer.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Cindy1230 said:


> This is probably irreverent to this episode... but Jeff125va mentioned the stadium and I had forgotten about the interaction between Jack and Desmond...can someone remind me if they ever remembered each other once they 'met up' on the island.
> 
> I agree with a previous post, this makes me want to watch the Desmond episode again.


Yeah, when they first went inside the hatch in "Man of Science, Man of Faith" Jack recognized Desmond and said "[it's] you." I can't remember whether Desmond ever acknowledged remembering Jack. I think he had a look of recognition but either couldn't place him or just acted as though he didn't remember. I just don't recall for sure. But even if he didn't, it could have just been due to the time that had passed and the brevity and apparent (at the time) insignificance of their encounter.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

MickeS said:


> The pilot?
> 
> Time IS perceived correctly on the island - that was one of the things they let us know with this episode (it's the same date there as outside the island). It is only when you travel to and from the island that time is somehow extended.


Are you referring to something specific as far as a reference to a particular date _on_ the island? I don't remember anything like that.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Are you referring to something specific as far as a reference to a particular date _on_ the island? I don't remember anything like that.


The islanders have been keeping track of their days, and have mentioned how many days they've been there. That adds up to around the same day we were told this episode took place in the outside world.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Jeeters said:


> I can't come up with an explaination of how exactly it gets them off the island, but it would be wild if we found out that the "Ocean 6" have really just time jumped to the future as a group. And when they speak to each of "going back", they're not talking about hopping on a plane/boat back to the island, they're talking about going back in time to when they were on the island.


As this episode has shown, changes in the timeline are possible.
I suspect that one of the Oceanic 6 will become unstuck in time for a while and will warn the others about leaving the island.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

MickeS said:


> The islanders have been keeping track of their days, and have mentioned how many days they've been there. That adds up to around the same day we were told this episode took place in the outside world.


_Around_ the same day doesn't tell us that time is in synch on and off the island.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> 2) We now know why she'd be so eager to reach him even after he dumped her.
> answer: because he contacted her after that, before going on the solar race around the world.. he went to her house, at least got her to let him in, broke the ice a bit, told her he needed her, that things weren't over between them, and that eight years from then, on chrismas eve, he'd call her.
> Before seeing this episode, we thought the last time we saw her was when he dumped her (she'd be a stalker to look for him after that). Now, he drops that in her lap, and leaves. How could she not be thinking about him after that?


No. She saw Desmond again right before he went on his race around the world and after he got out of the military prison. When Desmond and Jack met up at the stadium where they were running up the stairs, Penny met Desmond there. And if I remember correctly, that was just a couple of days or so before that race started.

I do feel like a lot of questions were answered...including why Faraday was crying when we were first introduced. Obviously when they came through on the helicopter Faraday started his traveling. Which would also explain why when Desmond goes to talk to past Faraday and past Faraday says did my Future Self tell you we did this already and Desmond said, "Maybe you forgot." Which is probably also the reason Faraday was so persistant about talking to Desmond right then and there. Was he just then establishing his contact with his constant? So everything should now be "perfect" with Faraday, right?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I wonder if Ben is able to do the "time traveling" at will? That would explain the photo of him off the island.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> _Around_ the same day doesn't tell us that time is in synch on and off the island.


OK, take out "around" then.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

This is what I get for reading some messages before coming to work, and planning on responding to them later. Oh well. 



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Minor quibble here...he had two days' leave.
> 
> But yes...anybody who doesn't think that they're starting to pile on the answers isn't paying attention.


I had originally thought this but after thinking about it again, it's not true at all. He had two days leave when he was talking to Penny on the phone. When he tried to call her later, her phone had been disconnected, then he found Widmore at the auction, who gave him the address. Desmond found out she had moved.

She changed her phone number and moved within a day or two? Hehehe riiight. No, there was a span of time in between, Desmond didn't visit Penny during his leave, he was AWOL at that point.

The big thing I've been thinking about all morning is this: they gave a wonderful scientific explanation as to what happened to Des, showed multiple people (Minkowski & Faraday) who had the same malady. Great, wonderful, I enjoyed it. But what about the woman in the jewelry store?

There's obviously much more to the time travel thing than the scientific explanation. She tells Des all about how she knows this dude will die, and he does. After providing much exposition, Des has his picture taken with Penny, then breaks it off. I think it's similar to Quantum Leap in that way, where while there's a scientific explanation to what's happening, there's something or someone else out there.

Also, let us not forget the orientation video with the rabbit.  That seems pretty physical to me, there's multiple rabbits there.

Slaughterhouse Five... the protagonist, Billy Pilgrim, becomes (and the wording is very specific here) "unstuck in time". The book isn't ABOUT the time travel, the time travel is a storytelling device to show the horrors of war. Billy Pilgrim shifts from a World War II prison camp, to the present, to the future where he's abducted by aliens with an actress. The aliens have a different perception of time, it's nonlinear for them.

At any rate, the time travel as consciousness vs. physicality is closer to Slaughterhouse Five than Quantum Leap, but the first thing that came to mind for me was Trancers. The main character, Jack Deth, can go back in time but only his consciousness goes. When he travels, he takes over the consciousness of a relative/ancestor, whose consciousness if I recall is just gone at that point.

Ah well. Bring on the five pages that were posted while I typed this!

Greg


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

MickeS said:


> I wonder if Ben is able to do the "time traveling" at will? That would explain the photo of him off the island.


It's not really time-traveling. His current time consciousness is able to move into a past version of his consciousness but as Ben has never been off the island except when he was just born (and I don't consider that picture as proof of anything) he couldn't be going back and forth at will.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I wonder if Ben is able to do the "time traveling" at will? That would explain the photo of him off the island.


Come on. What makes more sense? That Ben is able to time travel off the island? Or that he has a secret boat that he doesn't tell anyone else about. Why would he need passports, luggage, clothes if he was time travelling? And Desmond wasn't able to take anything with him when he jumped.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> Come on. What makes more sense? That Ben is able to time travel off the island? Or that he has a secret boat that he doesn't tell anyone else about. Why would he need passports, luggage, clothes if he was time travelling? And Desmond wasn't able to take anything with him when he jumped.


Well, Ben also *had* a submarine.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> Come on. What makes more sense? That Ben is able to time travel off the island? Or that he has a secret boat that he doesn't tell anyone else about. Why would he need passports, luggage, clothes if he was time travelling? And Desmond wasn't able to take anything with him when he jumped.


I never said it makes sense! 

But a boat would require him to be away for a long time, and also if he did have one, couldn't he have seen a doctor off the island, for his back?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

MickeS said:


> OK, take out "around" then.


All that does is re-state what you said before, that it's the same day. So I re-ask, what do you base that on? It doesn't sound like you're referring to something specific, and I'm not sure that there is something recent and definitive enough to trace back and determine that it's December 24 on the island (independent of the events on the freighter).

I'm not saying it isn't, either.

EDIT: In fact, there may be definitive references going back to "D.O.C." to confirm that it IS December 26 on the island. But at this point we don't know whether to call it a continuity error or something else.


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## brott (Feb 23, 2001)

"See you in another life" - Desmond


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Stop comparing LOST to Quantum Leap. Don't y'all remember what happened to the last show we compared to that?


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## GameGuru (Dec 12, 2003)

brott said:


> "See you in another life" - Desmond


Was there a "brotha" at the end of that?


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> His ONLY goal was to get himself to trust Desmond. Why? So Desmond could be _his_ constant, helping him (Dan) keep from jumping around, himself.


Here is how I read the situation:

true, Faraday's goal was to get past dan to trust desmond. but the reason was more to help desmond figure out what was going on. I didn't think future dan figured out desmond would be his constant until he read his journal at the end. He doesn't even remember meeting desmond, right? 


MikeMar said:


> > Originally Posted by Turtleboy
> > But there were a few cool things. Faraday has possibly gone through time travel himself. Is the Faraday on the Island going through it? WHEN did he write that Desmond was his constant in his notebook? In 1996? Recently?
> >
> > Why is Desmond his constant? Does he love Desmond for some reason that hasn't been revealed yet? Is the Faraday on the Island the one in the Past, and he meets up with Desmond again in the future future?
> ...


I think turtleboy is not clear on the constant concept (at least at the time of the post). the constant doesn't have to be someone you love. In fact, it doesn't even have to be a person. it could be an object or animal... anything that would connect you between the timejumping. You need to make contact with the constant on both sides of the timejump in order to stabilize your body or brain or whatever is going out of control.

so let me get this straight:
desmond is doing this time jump thing that he can't control. It's getting harder and harder to "get back". he is going to die if he can't establish his constant. what is the reference point... 96 or 04? does it matter? if he dies, does he die on both sides at the same time? harder to get back.. the 96 blackouts are getting longer and longer, but he picks up where he left off when he is in the future, and the time frame is 5 min in the future. or is he blacking out in the future as well. yeah, i think he is starting to black out in the future. thinking out loud here...

here is one thing that caught my attention:

past dan made a point of saying you can't change the future. and i guess that falls in line with desmond unable to save charlie's life.

BUT: how does one explain the picture frames that changed?

thinking about it now... maybe you can't change the endresult/fate that is going to happen, but the path to get there can change?


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

So, what was with Penny's dad plugging the bathroom sink?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

bruinfan said:


> Here is how I read the situation:
> 
> true, Faraday's goal was to get past dan to trust desmond. but the reason was more to help desmond figure out what was going on. I didn't think future dan figured out desmond would be his constant until he read his journal at the end. He doesn't even remember meeting desmond, right?
> 
> ...


I think the reference point is 1996 because he doesn't know what's going on in 1994.

We have no indication whatsoever that what happened with the picture frames has anything to do with the phenomena in this episode.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> I think the reference point is 1996 because he doesn't know what's going on in 2004.
> 
> We have no indication whatsoever that what happened with the picture frames has anything to do with the phenomena in this episode.


FYP,

he gets activated in 2004... so that's confusing to me.

and the frames: true, but the fact remains something in time changed, and past dan said you can't change the future.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Really good episode. I was surprised when the 3 women watching it with me didn't cry. Well, one of them did. I thought it was quite emotional. Desmond's back story is one of my favorites.

Lost Experience Spoiler / Speculation:



Spoiler



I think Faraday knew Gary Troup. It would make a lot of sense. Maybe Gary even interviewed him for his book on valenzetti. He cried when the plane crashed because he knew but didn't know that Gary Troup was on the plane. Or maybe he just flashed back to that exact moment in the last episode. I don't think so, though - that wouldn't really make sense since he didn't exhibit obvious temporal weirdness.



Didn't Faraday say magnetism OR radiation? Desmond was exposed to the former for sure. But wasn't Sayid too? He was in the hatch when it blew, wasn't he?

The anchor bit was a bit cheesy indeed, but maybe it makes a sort of weird sense. If we assume that human beings are capable of experience time in a non-linear fashion but it is very damaging to their brain, then it makes sense. Penny in past and present would be some sort of tool for Desmond's brain to "close the gate" on being able to experience time non-linearly. Sort of like a Mnemonic or similar.

The helicopter people "seemed" to experience only 30 minutes, but they noticed that it was many hours later when they arrived. So the barrier being some sort of "wibbly wobbly timey wimey" stuff would make sense. It could also be that the Island is out of sync in time.

More Lost Experience Spoilers



Spoiler



Since the Dharma Initiative's goal was to alter one of the factors of the valenzetti equation, perhaps the used Faraday's theories to remove the island from normal time and space using a giant electromagnet and whatever else (perhaps leveraging some innate property of the island) he did to make the mouse get unstuck (or stuck, whatever).


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

smickola said:


> OK I know everything is off as far as time is concerned, but simply given time zones, if it was Dec. 24th in the south Pacific, wouldn't it likely still not have been Christmas Eve in England where Penny was? Aren't they past the International Date Line?


No, they're in Hawaii, so they aren't past the International Date Line.

http://www.graphicmaps.com/aatlas/infopage/dateln.gif

Samoa and Tahiti are on our side of the IDL, too.


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## wouldworker (Sep 7, 2004)

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the unstuck-in-time thing would seem to explain how Desmond knew that Charlie was going to die. Or did Desmond get the radiation blast after that?


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## vikefan (Oct 29, 2006)

I still feel that somehow they are tying life and life after death into this show and maybe part of the time travel is crossing that line. The rat went into the future to learn the maze but it died in the past. A few episodes back did they show a sub taking pictures of the down plane underwater and all the people on it were dead? Maybe the 6 are trying to go back to save the rest from death. New to this lost furum so maybe this has already been hashed out.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

When Ben told Michael to leave the island on the boat didn't he give him a specific bearing to leave? Is it the same bearing that faraday gave the heli pilot?

And the radio controller seemed to be knowing what was going on in 2004 and was going back in time. Des thought it was 1996 didn't know what was going on in 2004.

J


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> Didn't Faraday say magnetism OR radiation? Desmond was exposed to the former for sure. But wasn't Sayid too? He was in the hatch when it blew, wasn't he?


No. Charlie, Mr. Eko, Locke and Desmond were the only ones in the hatch at that time.

Speaking of which...is that why Locke can predict the rain? If he was exposed to a bit of that radiation, could that explain it? But then again, so was Charlie and as far as we know, Charlie never had any flashes.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Faraday was in the coffin.

Book it.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

jwjody said:


> When Ben told Michael to leave the island on the boat didn't he give him a specific bearing to leave? Is it the same bearing that faraday gave the heli pilot?
> 
> And the radio controller seemed to be knowing what was going on in 2004 and was going back in time. Des thought it was 1996 didn't know what was going on in 2004.
> 
> J


Yes, I believe that Michael was giving a specific bearing. The same one that Daniel gave the pilot.

Good point on the radio guy (Minkowski), just realized that. I'm still not completely clear on the jumping of consciousness, and which directions the memories can "flow". I've come to grips with the concept by assuming that all moments in "time" are really occuring at the same time, and its possible to jump in and out of "yourself" (although, apparently, not at will) at any point in "time".

Speaking only for myself, I think I have a hard time comprehending this version of "time travel" (if you can even call it that) because I've always been exposed to the concept of time travel as shown in movies such as Back to the Future. That's what is warping my brain.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

wouldworker said:


> I don't think anyone has mentioned that the unstuck-in-time thing would seem to explain how Desmond knew that Charlie was going to die. Or did Desmond get the radiation blast after that?


No. Desmond started seeing flashes immediately after the hatch blew.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

mostman said:


> Faraday was in the coffin.


ohhh, I like it, I LIKE it...

Diane


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## packerfan (Jan 8, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> No. Charlie, Mr. Eko, Locke and Desmond were the only ones in the hatch at that time.
> 
> Speaking of which...is that why Locke can predict the rain? If he was exposed to a bit of that radiation, could that explain it? But then again, so was Charlie and as far as we know, Charlie never had any flashes.


Wasn't Desmond seen running through the jungle w/o clothes b/c they blew off from the hatch explosion?


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

According to Lostpedia, the compass reading Ben gave to Michael was 325 to "find rescue". Faraday told the pilot 305 (here: http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/325), but later says the heading was 32005 (here: http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Constant)


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Three new thoughts...

1) Could Jacob perhaps be "time shifting" but his body too, not just his consciousness. Perhaps that's why only some ppl can see him and he seems to be invisible sometimes. He's "phasing" in and out of our time/space beyond his will.

2) Does Desmond have two "powers"... the time shifting stuff we saw last night seems different than him getting "visions" of the future like when he saw Charlie die and in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" when he predicted the events in the bar.

3) Very interesting point about Desmond and Jack meeting up once before. I wonder if all the other "chance encounters" we'd seen in the show previous to that was just to set up Des and Jack meeting and not make it look suspicious to the viewers... until now. Maybe all the other meetings really were just coincidence... except for any of the encounters w/ Des.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Five pages in and nobody mentioned this yet. I think The Black Rock scene was key. For auction was the First Mate's Log (or ledger). I believe they said that it was found years after the ship was lost. They also said that the original owners never revealed the contents of the log. Now we have Mr. Widmore bidding on it. 

Since we know the Black Rock crashed on the island and that the log didn't appear for a few years maybe it is possible that this log has information on the island. Since Widmore won the auction he now has in his possession what may be key information about the island. This could also be tied to the Hanso Foundation in some way.

Do we know of any established link between Widmore and Hanso?


----------



## Mabes (Jan 12, 2001)

ElJay said:


> I very much enjoyed this episode as I was watching it. But the more I think about the it, the less I like it. It seems like a gimmicky mess to me, when the show already has enough gimmicks. Yeah it was cool, but after the smoke monster, Jacob, Walt, etc, etc, etc, etc, my patience for more unresolved mindf--k things is running out.


Time travel stories really don't make logical sense anyway, throw it in with all the other mysterious things and I think it's just too much. But I'm enjoying it.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

I doubt anything is meant to be coincidence on this show. They don't have the time to waste.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

mostman said:


> Faraday was in the coffin.
> 
> Book it.





dianebrat said:


> ohhh, I like it, I LIKE it...
> 
> Diane


Me too. Certainly a possibility. Unless,...


Spoiler



he gets shot in the next episode according to the preview.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Please don't give away preview spoilers.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Cindy1230 said:


> I thought that too, that it was linked to 'the sickness,' because why else would the doctor be injecting Minkowski with something, but to tell the audience _something. _


I think it's possible that Minkowski's injections and the medicine in the hatch were the same (to cure the same "sickness")?


----------



## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

vikefan said:


> I still feel that somehow they are tying life and life after death into this show and maybe part of the time travel is crossing that line. The rat went into the future to learn the maze but it died in the past. A few episodes back did they show a sub taking pictures of the down plane underwater and all the people on it were dead? Maybe the 6 are trying to go back to save the rest from death. New to this lost furum so maybe this has already been hashed out.


Are we sure when the rat died? It may have died after Faraday tought it the maze.


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## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

mostman said:


> Faraday was in the coffin.
> 
> Book it.


What makes you think that?


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

JYoung said:


> As this episode has shown, changes in the timeline are possible.


Really? I thought this episode was just showing us what already happened. Faraday didn't remember it because he has memory issues. They didn't explain why Desmond didn't remember it, but I like the theory someone posted here that when Desmond became stuck back in time, 1996 Desmond's memory of the jumps began to fade, kind of like a dream.


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## tem (Oct 6, 2003)

This show is officially BULLSH** !!


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

avery said:


> It does seem inconsistant that Desmond wouldn't also have suffered the effects earlier on. It certainly doesn't ruin anything for me - it's just surprising.


It seems to me that the time travel shown in this episode (not the same as the visions Desmond had of the future) is triggered by a high dose of magnetism/radiation followed by passing through some barrier that surrounds the island. It didn't happen for Desmond until he passed through the barrier when in the helicopter. It didn't happen for Minkowski until he snuck off the boat to go closer to the island.

This is the same barrier that caused the rocket and helicopter to undergo some kind of time shift relative to island time.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Jacob is the rat!!!!!


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

I don't know if there's anything to this, and maybe I just remember events incorrectly, but it seems that the consciousness moving through time gets closer to the "present" each time. For example, the first time it happened to Desmond, I think he was paintint his apartment and had just met Penny. The next time, he was buying an engagement ring for her. The next time he was breaking up with her. The next time he was back trying to get her phone number. So each event was getting closer and closer, and maybe once it catches up to the present the person dies It also starts happening more and more frequently. Of course, he also went into the future and saw Charlie's death several times. That could work the same way. Sort of like if zero represents the "present time", he jumps to -10, +10, -9, +9, -8, +8,......-1, +1, 0. Kind of an oscillation through time.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

I LOVE the theory that the sickness Rousseau talked about, and the sickness Desmond was inoculating himself against in the hatch, are the same as the time travel sickness experienced in this episode by Desmond and Minkowski, and that maybe the hatch and sick bay injections were the same substance. Good stuff guys. :up:


----------



## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

betts4 said:


> --could the time difference be why wounds heal faster on the island?


I've had this same thought for the last couple weeks. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront. I keep forgetting to mention it


----------



## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

danplaysbass said:


> Five pages in and nobody mentioned this yet. I think The Black Rock scene was key. For auction was the First Mate's Log (or ledger). I believe they said that it was found years after the ship was lost. They also said that the original owners never revealed the contents of the log. Now we have Mr. Widmore bidding on it.
> 
> Since we know the Black Rock crashed on the island and that the log didn't appear for a few years maybe it is possible that this log has information on the island. Since Widmore won the auction he now has in his possession what may be key information about the island. This could also be tied to the Hanso Foundation in some way.
> 
> Do we know of any established link between Widmore and Hanso?


I agree, that scene is going to prove to be key.

My sumation would be that since Widmore won the auction in 1996, it's taken some time to decipher what the contents hold that, in 2004, have born fruit in the form of a freighter under his control being sent to where they have finally discovered the island to be, from the ship log.

KD


----------



## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

glumlord said:


> I've had this same thought for the last couple weeks. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront. I keep forgetting to mention it


But if Rose's cancer was actually cured, that's not the sort of thing that normally gets better just by time passing. Neither is Locke's paralysis. Plus none of the people that have healed have gone through the barrier that distorts time after they were injured. I think the healing is another factor entirely. I believe it's too simplistic to think that this time distortion can explain all, or even most, of the mysteries on the island.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

bilbo said:


> No, they're in Hawaii, so they aren't past the International Date Line.
> 
> http://www.graphicmaps.com/aatlas/infopage/dateln.gif
> 
> Samoa and Tahiti are on our side of the IDL, too.


That's where the show is _filmed_, not where it is _set_.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

TheGreyOwl said:


> I don't know if there's anything to this, and maybe I just remember events incorrectly, but it seems that the consciousness moving through time gets closer to the "present" each time. For example, the first time it happened to Desmond, I think he was paintint his apartment and had just met Penny. The next time, he was buying an engagement ring for her. The next time he was breaking up with her. The next time he was back trying to get her phone number. So each event was getting closer and closer, and maybe once it catches up to the present the person dies It also starts happening more and more frequently. Of course, he also went into the future and saw Charlie's death several times. That could work the same way. Sort of like if zero represents the "present time", he jumps to -10, +10, -9, +9, -8, +8,......-1, +1, 0. Kind of an oscillation through time.


No. That all happened in one continuous forward movement. After he turned the failsafe key, he woke up in his and Penny's apartment when she had just moved in. From there he continuously moved forward in time until he got hit in the head with a bat at the bar and that brought him back to island time. (Naked for some reason...I guess we'll never know what happened to his clothes)

Last night when he was traveling backwards, he seemed to go back exactly where he left off before. Like when he dropped the change on the ground right before he called Penny and then flashed forward. The next time he goes back, he's picking up the change from the ground.

The only thing I can't figure out is how he got to Cambridge (was it?) so quickly without having another flash forward or anything. I mean, it wouldn't seem like he was out from present island time long enough to take a train ride to find Faraday.



danplaysbass said:


> Five pages in and nobody mentioned this yet. I think The Black Rock scene was key. For auction was the First Mate's Log (or ledger). I believe they said that it was found years after the ship was lost. They also said that the original owners never revealed the contents of the log. Now we have Mr. Widmore bidding on it.


LOL. A log as in a diary. I thought they were actually bidding on a piece of wood for some reason


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

unicorngoddess said:


> No. Charlie, Mr. Eko, Locke and Desmond were the only ones in the hatch at that time.
> 
> Speaking of which...is that why Locke can predict the rain? If he was exposed to a bit of that radiation, could that explain it? But then again, so was Charlie and as far as we know, Charlie never had any flashes.


Lots of people can predict weather with some degree of accuracy. I think Locke is just more "in tune" with nature and/or has better observational skills than the average person. He senses changes in pressure, temperature, etc. that anyone could if they simply trained themselves to pay attention to them.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

dba62 said:


> What makes you think that?


No friends or family. Someone both Jack and Kate know - but are not close to. And, most importantly, someone who would probably know exactly how to get back to the island.

Perhaps he ends up being the only member of the boat crew that gets home.

Edit: And, of course, the most obvious reason, he has a melted brain.


----------



## vikefan (Oct 29, 2006)

Jacob is the rat!!!!!

LOL


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I think we may have gotten a hint as to why Penny was looking for electromagnetic anomalies in order to find Desmond. Eventually she must have realized that Desmond had experienced some sort of time travel, found out about Faraday's research, and put two and two together. Or something like that.

Of course, that brings up the whole time travel paradox - did she go through 1996 once without Desmond visiting her new house, then Desmond changed the past and suddenly her 2001 (when Desmond went missing) self knew what he said about Christmas Eve 2004? Faraday said you couldn't change the future but he didn't say anything about changing the past, did he? Then again it's not like we ever actually saw two different versions of things. And there's a very reasonable explanation as to why Faraday doesn't remember meeting Desmond in 1996.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

It is Christmas Eve 2004 both on and off the island. Penny confirmed it and so did Sayid.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

aindik said:


> It is Christmas Eve 2004 both on and off the island. Penny confirmed it and so did Sayid.


How could Penny or Sayid confirm what day it was on the island? Or are you referring to another episode where Sayid was actually on the island?

EDIT: Or are you saying that Sayid would have known if it he had left the island on 12/26 and arrived on the ship on 12/24? Still, he could have lost track of what day it was. But if you're right, there may be a serious discrepancy in what is thought to be the timeline thus far.


----------



## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

jwjody said:


> And the radio controller seemed to be knowing what was going on in 2004 and was going back in time. Des thought it was 1996 didn't know what was going on in 2004.
> 
> J


Are we sure about that? Did we get clear indication that Minkowski was going back in time, and not forward? Wouldn't going forward better explain the rest of the crew's reaction to him? What if he went forward and saw a bad outcome to their expedition/rescue/whatever they are doing. That would be harder to swallow than someone claiming to be experiencing past events, wouldn't it? Or perhaps he has been seeing the outcome for the losties, and that's why they wouldn't let him anywhere near the communications devices, for fear he would let them know what he saw, or maybe specifically let Dan know.

Just a thought spurred by jwjody's comment.


----------



## 503Blunts (Apr 8, 2005)

This might be the grounds for a ban..... but I'm gonna go there anyway.

Lost - Jump the shark much???

I dunno, last night was an entertaining 40 minutes of TV that I did enjoy watching.

That said..... lost is getting dangerously close to jumping the shark. The only reason people are not saying so is because seasons 1/2/3 were so strong/revolutionary.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Is it possible that Faraday is wrong when he says that you can't change the future? I'll have to rewatch, but it seemed to me that Faraday was surprised to read his own journal entry that Desmond is his constant. If that had been established before the events of last nights episode, wouldn't things have been "perfect" for Faraday when he briefly met Desmond before Desmond boarded the helicopter. Actually, I can't say I actually remember whether we've seen those two together or not. In any event, I got the feeling that the journal entry that "Desmond is my constant" only came into being after Faraday spoke with Desmond on the phone, thereby setting off a chain of events that led the two of them to meet in the past. Am I completely misinterpreting things? 

Also, don't know if this was mentioned in a previous thread, but wasn't Elizabeth Mitchell also in "Frequency"?


----------



## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> Of course, that brings up the whole time travel paradox ... Faraday said you couldn't change the future but he didn't say anything about changing the past, did he? Then again it's not like we ever actually saw two different versions of things.


Of course, if you change the past, you have changed the future for those in the more distant past....


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

BrandonRe said:


> Are we sure about that? Did we get clear indication that Minkowski was going back in time, and not forward? Wouldn't going forward better explain the rest of the crew's reaction to him? What if he went forward and saw a bad outcome to their expedition/rescue/whatever they are doing. That would be harder to swallow than someone claiming to be experiencing past events, wouldn't it? Or perhaps he has been seeing the outcome for the losties, and that's why they wouldn't let him anywhere near the communications devices, for fear he would let them know what he saw, or maybe specifically let Dan know.
> 
> Just a thought spurred by jwjody's comment.


I had the same thought. Minkowski in 2004 seemed to be acting more like the Desmond of 1996 (i.e., he was jumping into a future he didn't recognize).


----------



## rufus_x_s (Jul 14, 2004)

BrandonRe said:


> Did we get clear indication that Minkowski was going back in time, and not forward?


I don't think so, but looking at their symptoms, we might surmise that it's the future self that exhibits the nosebleeds and is at risk of dying.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Whatever the barrier around the island is, Ben and the Others are apparently well-acquainted with its effects. When Juliette first came to the island, she was brought on the sub under sedation. I'm guessing that was to negate the barrier's effects.


----------



## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

3D said:


> Also, don't know if this was mentioned in a previous thread, but wasn't Elizabeth Mitchell also in "Frequency"?


Yes.


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Only two island days now to see if the Boxing Day Tsunami is incorporated into the storyline in any way. Maybe just the water on heading 325&#186; makes it through.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

The writers have consistently insisted that there will be no paradoxes of any sort involving time. I think when the show is over and we step back and we see the chronology of everything, then everything will be stubbornly linear. Plainly put, 1996 Desmond didn't do anything different because his life was already impacted by what had happened in 2004. This was always the case and he could not have avoided it. 

This is why Charlie had to die. He could not avoid it despite Desmond trying to stop his ultimate future from happening.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Shakhari said:


> Whatever the barrier around the island is, Ben and the Others are apparently well-acquainted with its effects. When Juliette first came to the island, she was brought on the sub under sedation. I'm guessing that was to negate the barrier's effects.


I think that's why they had to take a sub. I think that somehow traveling under the water is the only way not to be affected by whatever this force is.



tewcewl said:


> The writers have consistently insisted that there will be no paradoxes of any sort involving time.


Obviously the writers are Futurama fans


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

503Blunts said:


> This might be the grounds for a ban..... but I'm gonna go there anyway.
> 
> Lost - Jump the shark much???
> 
> ...


I say, no way. YMMV but LOST has consistently revealed additional details of the storyline tapestry set forth previously in a logically consistent manner, far more thoroughly than most any series I can remember. If only BSG was similarly disciplined as it seemingly promised to be the 1st 2 seasons, but I digress...

Some viewers just have a viscerial antipathy to the concept of time travel particularly in the less familiar manner utilized in LOST. Fine if it's not your cup of tea, but the show has not "jumped the shark" heading in an unawaredly self-satirical manner a la Fonze on 'Happy Days'.

This season has been fantastic beyond my imaginings with the weakest episode being last week's although it's always fun to just look at Kate.


----------



## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Along these lines, here's something else I'm trying to figure out.

Last night's episode seems to shed some light on Charlie's "visit" to Hurley. Remember what Charlie said? Something like, "I am dead. But I am also here".

Does this have the same sort of connection to the consciousness jumping we encountered last night? And if so, who's consciousness? Hurley's? Charlie's?


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

DLiquid said:


> I LOVE the theory that the sickness Rousseau talked about, and the sickness Desmond was inoculating himself against in the hatch, are the same as the time travel sickness experienced in this episode by Desmond and Minkowski, and that maybe the hatch and sick bay injections were the same substance. Good stuff guys. :up:


Also, we could add the injections that Claire (Aaron) had received while in the medical hatch.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

mostman said:


> No friends or family. Someone both Jack and Kate know - but are not close to. And, most importantly, someone who would probably know exactly how to get back to the island.
> 
> Perhaps he ends up being the only member of the boat crew that gets home.
> 
> Edit: And, of course, the most obvious reason, he has a melted brain.


And the other obvious reason - his height.


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Best episode of the Season easily. :up:


----------



## 503Blunts (Apr 8, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> I say, no way. YMMV but LOST has consistently revealed additional details of the storyline tapestry set forth previously in a logically consistent manner, far more thoroughly than most any series I can remember. If only BSG was similarly disciplined as it seemingly promised to be the 1st 2 seasons, but I digress...
> 
> Some viewers just have a viscerial antipathy to the concept of time travel particularly in the less familiar manner utilized in LOST. Fine if it's not your cup of tea, but the show has not "jumped the shark" heading in an unawaredly self-satirical manner a la Fonze on 'Happy Days'.
> 
> This season has been fantastic beyond my imaginings with the weakest episode being last week's although it's always fun to just look at Kate.


I agree that the show has been engrossing up until now, and most likely will remain very captivating and entertaining

However the time travel aspect is not the only way they're heading down the road to jumping. ITS EVERYTHING. The novelty will wear off, and at some point you have to look at what they're doing objectively. Most people just write of all the deranged stuff because its LOST.

Oh! Sonic the head hodge just showed up??? Who cares! Its lost! Certified gold!!

I will keep watching for sure. I'm just not sure the ending will live up to the brouhaha the journey has created.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

tewcewl said:


> The writers have consistently insisted that there will be no paradoxes of any sort involving time. I think when the show is over and we step back and we see the chronology of everything, then everything will be stubbornly linear. Plainly put, 1996 Desmond didn't do anything different because his life was already impacted by what had happened in 2004. This was always the case and he could not have avoided it.
> 
> This is why Charlie had to die. He could not avoid it despite Desmond trying to stop his ultimate future from happening.


But the paradox is inherent. If you consider Desmond from the 1996 perspective (the "first time"), he traveled forward to 2004. So he would have known all along that he needed to call Penny on Christmas Eve 2004, AND that he would meet Faraday, Sayid, etc. So when he "first" (from our perspective before we knew about the time travel) met them, he should have "remembered" them, correct?

Perhaps looking back, we could see that all of his prior actions were consistent with that, but I'm not sure. IIRC, he did insist on going on the helicopter to the ship in the last episode (or whenever they left). That would certainly be consistent. Still, I don't know how you can have time travel and not have any paradox. Maybe nothing major like killing your parents, but certainly whether or not you'd remember something before it happened.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> How could Penny or Sayid confirm what day it was on the island? Or are you referring to another episode where Sayid was actually on the island?
> 
> EDIT: Or are you saying that Sayid would have known if it he had left the island on 12/26 and arrived on the ship on 12/24? Still, he could have lost track of what day it was. But if you're right, there may be a serious discrepancy in what is thought to be the timeline thus far.


I really think that the point of that scene WAS to confirm that date was the same both on and off the island. If the producers had wanted us to believe that time ran slower on the island than off the island, then they could have Sayid say something like:

"It's Christmas Eve? We thought is was the beginning of December."

I think too much emphisis is placed on the time line that has been laid by fans. (It is also possible that the producers/writers just miscalculated their time line by two days.) But if they wanted us to believe there was difference in time, they would have played it a different way.


----------



## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Wow, it's still 2004 on the island and here we are in 2008. Kind of shows how slowly the plot is moving, eh?


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

RBlount said:


> I really think that the point of that scene WAS to confirm that date was the same both on and off the island. If the producers had wanted us to believe that time ran slower on the island than off the island, then they could have Sayid say something like:
> 
> "It's Christmas Eve? We thought is was the beginning of December."


But he kinda did, didn't he? He said something along the lines of not realizing it was almost Christmas.



atrac said:


> Wow, it's still 2004 on the island and here we are in 2008. Kind of shows how slowly the plot is moving, eh?


And further proof that time moves slower on the island than on the outside world 

ETA: Hey, when did I miss my YAMM???


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> But the paradox is inherent. If you consider Desmond from the 1996 perspective (the "first time"), he traveled forward to 2004. So he would have known all along that he needed to call Penny on Christmas Eve 2004, AND that he would meet Faraday, Sayid, etc. So when he "first" (from our perspective before we knew about the time travel) met them, he should have "remembered" them, correct?


I think that his conscious is traveling back from 2004 to 1996 - not forward. The only forward traveling he does is to the boat.
Maybe that's why he forgot Sayid - when his conscious travels back, he actually does NOT remember any island, and no Sayid or anything else. So in the future, he wouldn't remember that either. The only thing he knows is what we saw in this episode, that he was on a boat.
That solves the problem of the paradox you bring up.


----------



## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

I'm with TB in not particularly liking this episode.

The whole Desmond-Penny anchor thing was just way too cheesy and ridiculous. His brain is going to implode, but then one 2-minute phone call and declarations of love with his ex-girlfriend save him? He dumps Penny and then shows up acting crazy, and then instead of deciding he was drunk or nuts and getting on with her life, she devotes her life to searching for him and then 8 years later gets one phone call and now she loves him again? Please. I not only did NOT cry, I was rolling my eyes at it. Not the time travel aspects -- I expect some crazy stuff from Lost -- but the "love will set you free" moral and human behavior aspects just seemed over the top unbelievable and cheesy to me. 

I'm glad we got some answers, I liked the Black Rock tie-in, and I really like the Faraday character, but I just couldn't swallow the whole Penny-Desmond love thing. 

I also really don't understand why future Faraday doesn't remember interacting with Desmond in the past. None of the proposed answers to that are making sense to me.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

503Blunts said:


> I agree that the show has been engrossing up until now, and most likely will remain very captivating and entertaining


Doesn't that defeat your own argument?



> However the time travel aspect is not the only way they're heading down the road to jumping. ITS EVERYTHING. The novelty will wear off, and at some point you have to look at what they're doing objectively. Most people just write of all the deranged stuff because its LOST.


I don't think it's the 'novelty' of things that is keeping people around; in fact, I think the people fascinated by the novelty of it threw up their hands mid-way through season two. Objectively, I'd say they've handled the more 'deranged' stuff better than any other show I can think of (see Twin Peaks and BSG); the X-Files is pretty close, I guess - and Lost will avoid the same downfall as the X-Files because it's already got a definitive end date.



> Oh! Sonic the head hodge just showed up??? Who cares! Its lost! Certified gold!!
> 
> I will keep watching for sure. I'm just not sure the ending will live up to the brouhaha the journey has created.


I don't think there will be any dangling bizarro details left unexplained when all is said and done; there will be unanswered questions, but I think they will be more mundane stuff, like "how is it that Kate was tried for all her charges in an LA court room?", not stuff like "what is the smoke monster?".

Nothing that people really love ever truly lives up to the hype they generate (see Star Wars).


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

unicorngoddess said:


> But he kinda did, didn't he? He said something along the lines of not realizing it was almost Christmas.


For the Losties to think that it's _before_ Christmas would require enormously sloppy writing. There are enough definitive markers to put the island timeline at December 26th with near certainty. If they're so far off that they try to insinuate that Sayid thinks (unless it's because they've simply lost track, which we know they haven't) it's even a few days before Christmas would be so far off as to be considered a major continuity error.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> The only thing I can't figure out is how he got to Cambridge (was it?) so quickly without having another flash forward or anything. I mean, it wouldn't seem like he was out from present island time long enough to take a train ride to find Faraday.


As Minkowski noted, it was getting harder and harder to get back. The more he went back, the longer he stayed. He was there long enough to get to Cambridge.



503Blunts said:


> I will keep watching for sure. I'm just not sure the ending will live up to the brouhaha the journey has created.





latrobe7 said:


> Nothing that people really love ever truly lives up to the hype they generate (see Star Wars).


Sometimes the journey, not the destination, was the reason to come.

Greg


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

danplaysbass said:


> Do we know of any established link between Widmore and Hanso?


Well, there are Widmore supplies on the island, presumably put there by Hanso for Dharma. So, if anything, Hasno buys from Widmore.



DUDE_NJX said:


> I think it's possible that Minkowski's injections and the medicine in the hatch were the same (to cure the same "sickness")?


Good catch!!!



TiVotion said:


> Along these lines, here's something else I'm trying to figure out.
> 
> Last night's episode seems to shed some light on Charlie's "visit" to Hurley. Remember what Charlie said? Something like, "I am dead. But I am also here".
> 
> Does this have the same sort of connection to the consciousness jumping we encountered last night? And if so, who's consciousness? Hurley's? Charlie's?


But Charlie's BODY was in Hurley's future. I think that really was just Hurley's mind.



unicorngoddess said:


> But he kinda did, didn't he? He said something along the lines of not realizing it was almost Christmas.


No, he said something like "Oh, I forgot it's almost Christmas" not "WHAT?! It's almost Christmas? That can't be right?!"

The calendar on the boat said Christmas, Sayid didn't really think that was wrong and Penny had a Christmas tree in her apartment. Not everything is meant to throw us fans... it is Christmas on and off the island. Hence why they can also communicate with off-island in real time.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Ruth said:


> I'm with TB in not particularly liking this episode.
> 
> The whole Desmond-Penny anchor thing was just way too cheesy and ridiculous. His brain is going to implode, but then one 2-minute phone call and declarations of love with his ex-girlfriend save him? He dumps Penny and then shows up acting crazy, and then instead of deciding he was drunk or nuts and getting on with her life, she devotes her life to searching for him and then 8 years later gets one phone call and now she loves him again? Please. I not only did NOT cry, I was rolling my eyes at it. Not the time travel aspects -- I expect some crazy stuff from Lost -- but the "love will set you free" moral and human behavior aspects just seemed over the top unbelievable and cheesy to me.
> 
> ...


Well, I haven't had a chance to read much of this thread, so I'm not sure what TB's objections were, but I could not disagree more with your examples.

I mean is Penny/Desmond really cheesier than the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet love-quadrangle? Or Locke's over-the-top bipolar personality? Or more ridiculous than... well, a hundred other things that have happened?

I don't know what's been proposed so far, but I think why Faraday can't remember his interactions with Desmond (yet) is part of the course correction Ms. Hawking referred to; the memory loss prevents a paradox. He will regain his memory when there is no more chance of a paradox.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

jeff125va said:


> But the paradox is inherent. If you consider Desmond from the 1996 perspective (the "first time"), he traveled forward to 2004. So he would have known all along that he needed to call Penny on Christmas Eve 2004, AND that he would meet Faraday, Sayid, etc. So when he "first" (from our perspective before we knew about the time travel) met them, he should have "remembered" them, correct?


My theory (not entirely original) is that once 1996 Desmond became stuck back in his correct time, he forgot everything that happened during his unstuck time, everything from both 2004 and 1996. So he didn't remember the boat, and he didn't remember meeting Faraday or asking Penny for her phone number. He doesn't "remember" these things again until after the "constant" phone call in 2004. After that phone call, the 2004 consciousness of Desmond returns, along with the memories from 1996 that were lost. If the writers are inventing their own form of time travel, they can make whatever rules they want, and this would be one way to explain things and remove the paradox you pointed out.


----------



## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> I mean is Penny/Desmond really cheesier than the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet love-quadrangle? Or Locke's over-the-top bipolar personality? Or more ridiculous than... well, a hundred other things that have happened?


Because those are all things that happened _on the island._ The island makes people a little crazy, due to some combination of the stress of being trapped there and the island's strange properties.

I can see why Desmond is obsessed about Penny. But why would she reciprocate? Penny isn't on the island and as far as we know she never has been. It just didn't ring true to me that she would carry a torch for Desmond all those years and sit around waiting for his call like that.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Ruth said:


> I can see why Desmond is obsessed about Penny. But why would she reciprocate? Penny isn't on the island and as far as we know she never has been. It just didn't ring true to me that she would carry a torch for Desmond all those years and sit around waiting for his call like that.


I agree that Penny's obsession with finding Desmond hasn't been fully explained, but that doesn't mean it won't be. It sounds like you wanted it explained before the phone call scene, maybe even before earlier episodes when we learned she was searching. With the flashbacks and flashforwards, we just get pieces of the off-island stories, and I don't think we have all the pieces of the Desmond/Penny story yet.


----------



## 503Blunts (Apr 8, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> Doesn't that defeat your own argument?


Lost is in the process of jumping the shark, as it does just that, it will remain a spectacle to be seen.

It will be like watching a house burn... plenty good memories, sad to see it go - but still more enjoyable than any fire works you're seeing on the 4th.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Ruth said:


> Because those are all things that happened _on the island._ The island makes people a little crazy, due to some combination of the stress of being trapped there and the island's strange properties.
> 
> I can see why Desmond is obsessed about Penny. But why would she reciprocate? Penny isn't on the island and as far as we know she never has been. It just didn't ring true to me that she would carry a torch for Desmond all those years and sit around waiting for his call like that.


I dunno, I think there's plenty cheesy off the island - like every romantic relationship Kate had before the island, or Anna Lucia hanging out with Jack's dad, or Shannon and Boone's relationship, or Locke's life in general, or Jack's beard at the end of season three; and speaking of ridiculous, how about all the coincidental meetings before they even get on the plane? As far as Penny's motivations go; I don't know, maybe you're right. We don't know what we don't know; and until we do I continue to enjoy the ride.


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

DLiquid said:


> I agree that Penny's obsession with finding Desmond hasn't been fully explained, but that doesn't mean it won't be. It sounds like you wanted it explained before the phone call scene, maybe even before earlier episodes when we learned she was searching. This show rarely tells it's off-island stories in linear order.


True, true. The omission just meant that the whole sappy love part really didn't work for me. Seems like I'm in the minority on that, though, if this thread is representative of Lost fans. (And I'm not really a sappy love scene fan anyway.)


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

503Blunts said:


> Lost is in the process of jumping the shark, as it does just that, it will remain a spectacle to be seen.
> 
> It will be like watching a house burn... plenty good memories, sad to see it go - but still more enjoyable than any fire works you're seeing on the 4th.


 er OK. You seem to be working on your own definition of "shark-jumping". You lost me.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> But he kinda did, didn't he? He said something along the lines of not realizing it was almost Christmas.
> 
> No, he said something like "Oh, I forgot it's almost Christmas" not "WHAT?! It's almost Christmas? That can't be right?!"





cwoody222 said:


> No, he said something like "Oh, I forgot it's almost Christmas" not "WHAT?! It's almost Christmas? That can't be right?!"
> 
> The calendar on the boat said Christmas, Sayid didn't really think that was wrong and Penny had a Christmas tree in her apartment. Not everything is meant to throw us fans... it is Christmas on and off the island. Hence why they can also communicate with off-island in real time.


What I was saying was not that he refused to believe that was the correct date but that he was surprised that it seemed to be Christmas already.

And also...how did they know from looking at the calander that it was Dec 24? It was a wall canader...it's not like it said, Today's Date Is December 24. Unless it did and I missed that part.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

503Blunts said:


> This might be the grounds for a ban..... but I'm gonna go there anyway.
> 
> Lost - Jump the shark much???
> 
> ...


Did you not see any of the threads from seasons 2 and 3? People complained constantly about the show (rightfully so) and often stated that the show had greatly declined in quality.

I for one thing this is by far the best season since season 1. There has been only one "not great" episode, and the rest have been great.

Desmond's story was already filled to the brim with time paradox stuff. Every time we saw him since they turned the key, he had some sort of seeming precognitive ability. He jumped back in time to before the island even.

Exactly how is it jumping the shark? Because they further explained what is happening to him?

In an unrelated note... boy is the actor who plays Faraday grotesquely thin or what? Maybe he has since gained weight, but he was Christian Bale in Machinist thin in Rescue Dawn, and doesn't seem to have put on much weight since then.


----------



## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> 15) Ah, ok, got it.. Didn't catch this the first time around.. When Dan tells Desmond to tell 1994-Dan that the machine should be set to 2.342, oscillating at 11 hertz, he wasn't giving himself any new information.. It's something that the old him would have found out in a few hours anyway (2.342 was in his journal already).. He just wanted to tell himself something about his experiment so that previous him would believe it was Desmond. Originally I'd caught that he wanted his previous self to believe Desmond, but thought he'd wanted his previous self to believe Desmond SO he could have Desmond tell him to set the machine to 2.342.. but instead, the setting on the machine was almost inconsequential - he'd have figured it out soon anyway (it's in his journal). His ONLY goal was to get himself to trust Desmond. Why? So Desmond could be _his_ constant, helping him (Dan) keep from jumping around, himself.


Good observation. I wasn't really clear on that the first time around either, but that makes the most sense.



jlb said:


> Is it not possible everyone is jumping but that only those exposed to the large amounts of radiation can perceive it? So for instance, all the flashbacks and forwards are jumps in time of consciousness. I doubt it but you never know...


Possible but not at all probable.



Alfer2003 said:


> Although I always get a bit tweaked when things happen so easily that never would in real life, like when the group just simply walked into the communications room w/o being caught and Sayid was able to miraculously patch together a telephone that was easliy able to dial straight through to London with just a battery...oh well..that's how it is sometimes I guess..gotta do what ya gotta do to move the story forward.


Yeah, the repair job seemed a bit much, but I guess Sayid is just one skilled dude.



Cindy1230 said:


> I agree with the Quantum Leap idea, because i guess it's easier for me to understand. I'm not familiar with the Slaughterhouse Five reference, if someone can explain.


It's similar I guess. In Quantum Leap, Sam always jumped backward in time into someone else's body and had control of it. He had his own mind, from the future, not the person's he jumped into. He also would change the past, fixing some wrong, then leave that person's body.

Desmond being "unstuck in time" means that from HIS point of view, he is instantaneously jumping back and forth in his own body between 1996 and 2004. But he only possesses his 1996 memories. I think he is also just reliving what has already happened in 1996, not changing the past. From an outside point of view in 1996, he seems a bit crazy because he keeps getting disoriented, but he's still the same person. From an outside point of view in 2004, he's lost his memory. The jumping back and forth in his mind will physically kill his body in 2004 if he doesn't find his anchor. When he is anchored back in time, he stops jumping, his 2004 mind stays in 2004 and his 2004 memories are returned. His 1996 self returns to normal, without 2004 memories.



jeff125va said:


> 2) But this raises the obvious time-travel paradox questions. We know that 2004 Daniel didn't know that Desmond would/had visited him in 1996. Therefore, we should conclude...


He didn't remember at the time because he has the same symptoms as Desmond, but if he could remember properly, he would know. At least that's how I took it.



MickeS said:


> The thing there though is that it implies that the flash forwards we saw last week with Kate and Aaron, where Aaron is shown as what seems to be at least 2 years old, take place at least 2-3 years after the current island time. So does it take that long for them to get rescued? Or did it take that long to get her on trial (which I doubt)? Or do they end up travelling in time, delaying their arrival off island somehow?


I was just on a jury this month for a case from 2006. I think a delayed trial is the most likely outcome.



Cindy1230 said:


> So, what was with Penny's dad plugging the bathroom sink?


Seemed like just a device to show that Desmond blacked out for awhile.



mostman said:


> Faraday was in the coffin.
> 
> Book it.


I still think Ben is a more dramatic and probable result. They'd have to explain a lot for Jack to be that emotionally involved with Faraday's death.



tem said:


> This show is officially BULLSH** !!





503Blunts said:


> This might be the grounds for a ban..... but I'm gonna go there anyway.
> 
> Lost - Jump the shark much???
> 
> ...


To me, these type of posts just say, "I'm too lazy to pick up on these clues, I give up!" They are answering questions and moving the story along. If it's not fast enough for you, why not quit watching and wait for the DVDs? Do you want the series to end now? They have the major plot points planned out. Why not just enjoy the ride?



BrandonRe said:


> Are we sure about that? Did we get clear indication that Minkowski was going back in time, and not forward? Wouldn't going forward better explain the rest of the crew's reaction to him?


If the body were to die in the past, that creates a time paradox. How could they even be seeing him in 2004? It's clear from that and the nosebleeds they both get that they are both jumping to their past, not the future.



Ruth said:


> Not the time travel aspects -- I expect some crazy stuff from Lost -- but the "love will set you free" moral and human behavior aspects just seemed over the top unbelievable and cheesy to me.
> 
> I'm glad we got some answers, I liked the Black Rock tie-in, and I really like the Faraday character, but I just couldn't swallow the whole Penny-Desmond love thing.
> 
> I also really don't understand why future Faraday doesn't remember interacting with Desmond in the past. None of the proposed answers to that are making sense to me.


It didn't have to be Penny or love that anchored him. Just something from both times. Before he talked to her, he had absolutely NOTHING from the past to recognize. I didn't see it as love will set you free at all. He needed something, anything, to anchor to, and that's all he could find.

Faraday doesn't remember for the same reason Desmond doesn't remember. They both have the same symptoms, from the same problem. Why doesn't that make sense?



Ruth said:


> I can see why Desmond is obsessed about Penny. But why would she reciprocate? Penny isn't on the island and as far as we know she never has been. It just didn't ring true to me that she would carry a torch for Desmond all those years and sit around waiting for his call like that.


I don't remember all the details of Desmond's story, but she probably did exactly as you say and forgot about it for awhile, moved on. But she still had some feelings for him, eventually finds out he is missing, and remembers the date he said he'd call. As she learns more and realizes what's going on, and that date gets closer, she believes.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

503Blunts said:


> Lost is in the process of jumping the shark, as it does just that, it will remain a spectacle to be seen.


I think the idea of "jumping the shark" is lame. In my opinion, LOST has had its ups and downs. I didn't really like the episodes where the losties were being held captive by The Others. I'm not a big fan of Jacob's travelling haunted house. I watch because it's still one of my favorite shows and every once in a while an excellent episode like last night's comes along. I would say that the trend this season is that LOST is improving, and it's not in some kind of terminal decline as you imply.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> And also...how did they know from looking at the calander that it was Dec 24? It was a wall canader...it's not like it said, Today's Date Is December 24. Unless it did and I missed that part.


The days were crossed off.


----------



## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

unicorngoddess said:


> And also...how did they know from looking at the calander that it was Dec 24? It was a wall canader...it's not like it said, Today's Date Is December 24. Unless it did and I missed that part.


Someone had x'ed out each day on the calendar up to December 24.

ETA: Darn you Bryan!


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Bryanmc said:


> The days were crossed off.


Well...is it possible then that no one has been down there for a couple of days to cross them off?

And maybe its because I was watching it on my bedroom tv in SD that I didn't notice the Xs.


----------



## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

unicorngoddess said:


> Well...is it possible then that no one has been down there for a couple of days to cross them off?
> 
> And maybe its because I was watching it on my bedroom tv in SD that I didn't notice the Xs.


Possible of course. But why bother showing a calendar with days marked off if it's the wrong date?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

If time is moving slower or faster on the island, the date would be way further off than 2 days, wouldn't it? The fact that it's that close has to mean than it's an error rather than a sign. 

Also, there are lots of other times when time off-island matches up with time there. Like when Ben showed Juliet her sister and her baby. He was the right age. Also the time Desmond spent in the hatch matched up with the real date when the plane crashed. I guess the time you lose or gain traveling through the barrier is negligible in the overall scheme of things.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Isn't it possible that lostopedia has simply made an error. Has the actual date been stated recently enough that we should have blind faith in the fact that it's december 26 on the island? Did anyone say it was christmas day?


----------



## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> In an unrelated note... boy is the actor who plays Faraday grotesquely thin or what? Maybe he has since gained weight, but he was Christian Bale in Machinist thin in Rescue Dawn, and doesn't seem to have put on much weight since then.


Nah, I think he's more of a Christian Bale in Rescue Dawn thin.


----------



## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> For the Losties to think that it's _before_ Christmas would require enormously sloppy writing. There are enough definitive markers to put the island timeline at December 26th with near certainty. If they're so far off that they try to insinuate that Sayid thinks (unless it's because they've simply lost track, which we know they haven't) it's even a few days before Christmas would be so far off as to be considered a major continuity error.


Care to explain these definitive markers for us?


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Why not accept the most obvious answer - it makes more dramatic (and romantic) sense for Des to say to Penny "I'll call you on Christmas Eve 2004" than "December 26th 2004"? Plus, it could be December 25th on the island/boat and still the 24th in London. That places the "error" at a whole 1 day.

I don't see it as significant, and certainly not earth-shattering. If it's a continuity error - IF - so what, it's a TV show. Not their first.

Since it would have been even more neat-o to say "I'll call you on Christmas", the writers must have had a reason to place it when they did. But none of this interests or distracts from the episode for probably 95%+ of fans.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

503Blunts said:


> This might be the grounds for a ban..... but I'm gonna go there anyway.
> 
> Lost - Jump the shark much???
> 
> ...


If you truly think that, then you should get out now because you just don't get this series. Everything we have seen has been leading to this. This is a BIG reveal of the true nature of the island. We still don't have all the answers but this gets us a long way toward the finale.


----------



## 503Blunts (Apr 8, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> If you truly think that, then you should get out now because you just don't get this series. Everything we have seen has been leading to this. This is a BIG reveal of the true nature of the island. We still don't have all the answers but this gets us a long way toward the finale.


I'm predicting that Lost will become more and more preposterous and you will become more and more defensive. BOOK IT.

Since I supposedly do not 'get' lost, please, school me.

I'm going to be especially disappointed if 'EVERYTHING WE HAVE SEEN HAS BEEN LEADING TO *THIS*'

Who had some sort of unstuck-time-traveling-between-96-and-04 in the forum pool? You have a solid 500 bucks coming your way.

*This is a BIG reveal of the true nature of the island. *

O RLY? A reveal... more like 10 more questions???? How are you satisfied with that? They have dug a hole so deep and absurd the writers probably WELCOMED the strike.

*We still don't have all the answers but this gets us a long way toward the finale.*

A long way? Are you sure?

The Big LOST Unanswered Questions list

Its LOST baby! It doesn't matter what happens!!! CERTIFIED GOLLLLLLD!!!!


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

503Blunts said:


> I'm predicting that Lost will become more and more preposterous and you will become more and more defensive. BOOK IT.
> 
> Since I supposedly do not 'get' lost, please, school me.
> 
> ...


If you can't enjoy the ride, get off. 

And a lot of those "unanswered questions" are just ... "What is Sun's father's real business?" Oh yeah, that's kept me up at night...


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

503Blunts said:


> I'm predicting that Lost will become more and more preposterous and you will become more and more defensive. BOOK IT.
> 
> Since I supposedly do not 'get' lost, please, school me.
> 
> ...


So, how are things over at the Jerry Springer School of Rhetoric? 

We get it, you've said it often enough you don't like it, move on. Nothing to see here then.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

MickeS said:


> If you can't enjoy the ride, get off.


Exactly.

Jumping the Shark indicates a show is past it's prime. It's done all it can and is on the downhill slide to nothingness. This show is nowhere near that. The reason shows jump the shark is that they don't know when it's over. They keep rehashing the same sad plot lines until the lack of an audience sends them packing. This show has a definate timeline. It has a predetermined end date. As long as that is true, and I have seen nothing so far that indicates that it's not, it won't jump the shark until all the questions have been answered. In a book it would be called the climax. The book ends shortly after the climax. The author usually has a few loose ends to tie up and then it's over. This episode answered some questions but it's definately not the climax.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Is it merely a coincedence that the last two of the repeated numbers from seasons past (4, 8, 15, 16, *23* and *42*) form the setting for Dan's time machine *2.342*? (One would think the 11 Hz frequency would have to figure in somehow as well if this was not a coincedence.)


----------



## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

Bottom line.
It's all a mind ****.
The longest "Twilight Zone" episode ever.
But I like it.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> I agree. I felt this episode answered a ton of questions. At least many I had.
> 
> As the show ended I chuckled to myself and thought: "Wow, for a show that was planned to last (perhaps) only one season, they've turned it into quiet a story."


I recall that ABC was talking up that they were going with a new idea, and limited self-contained shorter series. Wasn't LOST supposed to be one of those?

Oh, one word on LOST...

WHOA!


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Maybe you guys have seen it, but this JJ Abrams speech is kinda fun. Explains why "Lost" is like it is. 

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/205


----------



## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

503Blunts said:


> I'm predicting that Lost will become more and more preposterous and you will become more and more defensive. BOOK IT.
> 
> Since I supposedly do not 'get' lost, please, school me.
> 
> ...


I'm predicting that Lost will answer most of the significant questions by the end of the series and that you will continue crying about it until the finale.

What are your 10 new questions? Why do you think they have dug a hole too deep to get out of? We can't 'school you' unless you let us in on what is so preprosterous about this show to you.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

503Blunts said:


> I'm predicting that Lost will become more and more preposterous and you will become more and more defensive. BOOK IT.
> 
> Since I supposedly do not 'get' lost, please, school me.
> 
> ...


Why they hell are you so bitter? Don't like it, don't watch it, and don't try to ruin the experience for everyone else enjoying it. I'm enjoying this season greatly... Don't think there have been any clunker episodes yet.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> Why they hell are you so bitter? Don't like it, don't watch it, and don't try to ruin the experience for everyone else enjoying it. I'm enjoying this season greatly... Don't think there have been any clunker episodes yet.


Indeed. I don't get the whiners around here. I swear some of these people would be happier if the Losties all sat around the campfire while the Professor fashioned a shortwave radio out of coconut shells and a Bic lighter. Look, Ginger found another bikini from someone's luggage!

Yeah, Lost is complicated. That's what makes it so satisfying for most of its viewers.

I guess some people want to read a few magazine articles, while others want to read a whole novel.


----------



## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

DevdogAZ, where are you????


----------



## Sue C. (Dec 9, 2003)

So didn't anyone else get the "Eloise" connection to Jeremy Davies? It was the name of the love interest of his character in the move "The Million Dollar Hotel."


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Maybe you guys have seen it, but this JJ Abrams speech is kinda fun. Explains why "Lost" is like it is.
> 
> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/205


Wow, thanks, that was great!

Greg


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

I'm posting before reading - I'm sure that's bad - but I wanted to say that it's 2:07am and I intend to read this entire thread before going to bed. Wish me luck!

WHOA!!! This was an amazing episode! I'm so curious to see what y'all thought and what I may have missed. The ending was so emotional!


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

SoBelle0 said:


> WHOA!!! This was an amazing episode!


Smeek! 

Greg


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

gchance said:


> Smeek!
> 
> Greg


Whoops!


----------



## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

scooterboy said:


> When Desmond "came back" while sitting in the chair, Faraday told him he'd been out for 75 minutes. He must have taught the maze to the mouse during that time.


I make it a rule now not to try to "figure out" anything related to time travel.
It just goes in circles.

For example, if he sent the mouse to the future to learn the maze, then, when the time comes, what's the point of teaching him? He already knows it. See? I hate the stuff. 

BTW, do Google image search for Yunjin Kim....YOWZA!


----------



## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

Wow, that was a great episode! :up: :up: Loved the tie in with the Back Rock and Hanso.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Maybe you guys have seen it, but this JJ Abrams speech is kinda fun. Explains why "Lost" is like it is.
> 
> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/205


TED is excellent; they have some really amazing talks on there. Thanks for the link!


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mitchb2 said:


> I make it a rule now not to try to "figure out" anything related to time travel.
> It just goes in circles.
> 
> For example, if he sent the mouse to the future to learn the maze, then, when the time comes, what's the point of teaching him?


Aha - but what if the experiment wouldn't work for someone who was the type of person who'd try not teaching mouse? I don't mean there's som external force/intelligence, but that rather it would simply not work, since you wouldn't teach the rat, and when it came back it hadn't been taught. So maybe a pure man of science like Jack, who'd want to see what happens if he doesn't teach the rat, will not be able to do the experiment - it'd fail. But a man of blind faith, like John, COULD do it (at least once) because he's "supposed" to. Faraday would be able to too since he a) fully understands/believes what I just said, b) really wants this to work and doesn't want to "risk" it not working, or c) is *afraid* of what'd happen.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

How can you teach a maze to a mouse who already knows how to run it? 

Daniel told Jack,"your perception of how long they've been gone is not necessarily how long they've actually been gone."--referring to the helicopter. It makes it sound like the distortion of time is on the island, like we used to think. Sayid says we took off at dusk and arrived in the middle of the day, but he doesn't seem to think they were in the air that long. So they went into the storm at dusk and then came out in the afternoon? This question and what's Desmond's doing seem to be 2 different things. Is the island just 1 day behind the rest of the world due to some event of the past, and it just stays that way with time on the island moving at the same pace as everywhere else? But then it would be the 27th in the real world, not the 24th. 

Daniel also said there could be "side effects" if they went off course, which they did a little bit. So if the pilot had been able to keep them exactly on course this wouldn't have happened to Desmond? I suppose Minkowski and his buddy just rowed in there any old way, which explains why they're dead. 

Of the people we've met so far only the doctor seems to really be a bad guy. The crew was following his orders and Daniel and the pilot seem to be good guys. The question is, who's the captain? Probably not Widmore himself, but they know who he is.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> 1) Note that the frequency Dan needed to use was 2342 (the last two numbers). Also note that when he turned on the machine, it emitted a purplish light.





jkeegan said:


> 15) Ah, ok, got it.. Didn't catch this the first time around.. When Dan tells Desmond to tell 1994-Dan that the machine should be set to 2.342, oscillating at 11 hertz, he wasn't giving himself any new information.. It's something that the old him would have found out in a few hours anyway (2.342 was in his journal already).


FWIW, right after the 2.342 scene between 1996 Dez & Faraday was the auction scene with Widmore. The lot number for the Black Rock log was announced by the auctioneer as lot 2342.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> How can you teach a maze to a mouse who already knows how to run it?


Faraday said that he had just finished building the maze that morning and was about to teach Eloise (a rat, BTW) to run the maze in the next hour. But he used the settings Dez revealed from future-Faraday to zap Eloise's brain to a couple of hours in the future, AFTER she had already been taught the maze.



stellie93 said:


> Daniel also said there could be "side effects" if they went off course, which they did a little bit. So if the pilot had been able to keep them exactly on course this wouldn't have happened to Desmond? I suppose Minkowski and his buddy just rowed in there any old way, which explains why they're dead.


They are dead because they didn't have a "constant" to keep them "grounded in time".


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

getreal said:


> Faraday said that he had just finished building the maze that morning and was about to teach Eloise (a rat, BTW) to run the maze in the next hour. But he used the settings Dez revealed from future-Faraday to zap Eloise's brain to a couple of hours in the future, AFTER she had already been taught the maze.


The question remains... once he zapped it and it knew the maze, he could no longer teach it the maze in the future since it already knew the maze. So in effect, despite what he said, he DID alter the timeline because in two hours if he ran the rodent through the maze again, it would already know how to run through it.


----------



## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

TAsunder said:


> The question remains... once he zapped it and it knew the maze, he could no longer teach it the maze in the future since it already knew the maze. So in effect, despite what he said, he DID alter the timeline because in two hours if he ran the rodent through the maze again, it would already know how to run through it.


The rat became unstuck in time. Its future knowledge of how to run the maze was there long enough to run the maze while they were watching, but probably not for much longer. He still has to teach the rat how to run it later on. It's not changing the past.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> The writers have consistently insisted that there will be no paradoxes of any sort involving time. I think when the show is over and we step back and we see the chronology of everything, then everything will be stubbornly linear. Plainly put, 1996 Desmond didn't do anything different because his life was already impacted by what had happened in 2004. This was always the case and he could not have avoided it.
> 
> This is why Charlie had to die. He could not avoid it despite Desmond trying to stop his ultimate future from happening.


The writers have some magic up their sleeve, some help from a Higher Power. Mrs. Hawking, to be precise. She said that the universe has a tendency to course correct. Not that you couldn't change time mind you, quite the contrary - you *can* do so, but the universe will correct itself. Save Charlie, and the universe will just keep plugging away at him until it wins.

Long term he dies, but short term there's a lot of flexibility. Desmond can change various things, for good or for bad. (Example of a potential bad decision: does anybody now believe that Penny would would been the parachutist they found in the jungle if Des had let Charlie die via the arrow trap?)

This device allows the writers to tweak with time and even paradoxes to a certain extent, then say the universe fixed it. It may be a lame literary device but all time travel stories are. Some are just better written than others is all. 

So, did the past change when the rat learned the maze from the future-Faraday? From the perspective of the rat, no. From 1996-Desmond, no. From 2004-Desmond, yes. Yet all are right.

My point is that I think those looking for a laser-like linear flow of time are going to be disappointed. Contradictions will abound in a rigid framework, so don't use one. Just go with the flow ... and try not to annoy the universe. The universe might decide you should die now, and the universe _always_ wins.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I think that his conscious is traveling back from 2004 to 1996 - not forward. The only forward traveling he does is to the boat.
> Maybe that's why he forgot Sayid - when his conscious travels back, he actually does NOT remember any island, and no Sayid or anything else. So in the future, he wouldn't remember that either. The only thing he knows is what we saw in this episode, that he was on a boat.
> That solves the problem of the paradox you bring up.


Okay, so i've had a few days to process... so a new question i that i have is... drum roll..

So, by the end of the episode Desmond was 'perfect.' And we know that Minkowski did not get perfect because, we assume, he died. So, as Mike stated above... Desmond couldn't remember between 1996 and 2004... so why was Minkowski able to remember things?

He remembered that he wasn't suppose to answer the blinking light and that weird things started to happen when he and brandon took the boat out and that someone sabotaged the communication equipment a few days ago..

or is he remembering things since he obtained 'the sickness' ?


----------



## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

ElJay said:


> What was Desmond originally doing during that time in 1996 before the 2004 Desmond showed up and started altering what was doing on? Evidently he was doing something else, because he didn't know Penny's the phone number. Why was he doing something else if the 2004 Desmond was back there getting the phone number?


We don't know what happened to 2004 Desmond when the "episodes" happened. There was no indication that 1996 Desmond had any memories of the Losties, quite the opposite he just remembered being on the boat and couldn't remember any of the people on it. The 2004 Desmond before the storm and after the call to Penny is the Desmond we know, the other times we saw him in 2004 was 1996 Desmond in the future. Perhaps 2004 Desmond flashed forward back to the previous episodes where he did seem to have knowledge of what is or will be going on.

I am starting to wonder if it is Penny's dad vs Penny, not just on this boat, but perhaps overall. Perhaps Ben works for Penny, at least perhaps Future Ben does. Her dad, at the very least, if not her, now have access to the Black Rock's log and know about the island and perhaps its effects. (I am typing as I read, and I see others are exploring this angle as well.) It is after reading the log that Penny decides to tries to reconnect with Desmond, and why (I lost the words in the static, but something about she saw something) and tried to find him for the last 3 years.
Why did Penny's dad leave the water on?

Perhaps the physic can also time travel to talk to "ghosts," but can control it? I seem to recall the producers have said that nothing paranormal is going on and that everything will have an explanation.

What picture frames are messed up?



Ruth said:


> I also really don't understand why future Faraday doesn't remember interacting with Desmond in the past. None of the proposed answers to that are making sense to me.


Well, its clear that Fraday has a memory problem, enough so that he has a caretaker, so he forgot he did.

I agree that 1996 Desmond probably lost the memories of 2004 in due time, sort of like a fading dream.

It sucks not watching the show until Friday or Saturday, the threads get so long by that point. 

Now I need to start getting caught up in the Enhanced episodes.


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

So, is Faraday's memory loss related to being "unstuck in time", or not? I would assume it has to do with something else, such as his prolonged exposure to the radiation in his experiments. If he were "unstuck", he would be having more problems than just memory loss. Also, he would have been fixed when he was on the radio with Desmond. If he were "unstuck" and was being managed medication, would he need to talk to Desmond again to fix himself? (since Desmond couldn't become his constant until after he told him to go meet him in the past). Along those same lines, could Desmond have been anyone's constant when he himself was "unstuck"? Or was he an unstable variable.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Delta13 said:


> The writers have some magic up their sleeve, some help from a Higher Power. Mrs. Hawking, to be precise. She said that the universe has a tendency to course correct. Not that you couldn't change time mind you, quite the contrary - you *can* do so, but the universe will correct itself. Save Charlie, and the universe will just keep plugging away at him until it wins.
> 
> Long term he dies, but short term there's a lot of flexibility. Desmond can change various things, for good or for bad. (Example of a potential bad decision: does anybody now believe that Penny would would been the parachutist they found in the jungle if Des had let Charlie die via the arrow trap?)
> 
> ...


Very well said!

I can also recommend the weekly podcast from ABC by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse, they are canon, and they do address what they refer to as "unwarranted fan speculation" This weeks specifically address the "unstuck in time" issues and what they will and won't allow in the writing of the series.

Diane


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I don't think it's fair to tell critics of the show -- people who watch the show, like the show, and want to like the show, but are dissapointed or critical of certain plot developments to stop watching, or even worse, to take their opinion elsewhere.

I don't like the time travel plots. I didn't like this episode very much. I think that focusing on time travel takes a lot a way from the story of the original characters, and is as interesting as Nikki and Paolo.


----------



## orome (Dec 30, 2004)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Look, Ginger found another bikini from someone's luggage!


Whose luggage, though? WHOSE?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think it's fair to tell critics of the show -- people who watch the show, like the show, and want to like the show, but are disappointed or critical of certain plot developments to stop watching, or even worse, to take their opinion elsewhere.


Well if that's the way you feel you should just stop watching. Or better yet, take your opinions elsewhere.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't like the time travel plots. I didn't like this episode very much. I think that focusing on time travel takes a lot a way from the story of the original characters, and is as interesting as Nikki and Paolo.


Nikki and Paulo were suddenly inserted ancillary characters which, just as suddenly, had their story arcs dealt with and wrapped up in one episode. Like the Universe course-correcting itself.

But Desmond is a character we have invested in. This episode addressed many mysteries about his relationship with Penny, her devotion to finding him, what happened to him when the hatch blew up, his ability to forecast Charlie's destiny, etc. etc. etc.

I loved this episode. :up::up::up: I really don't see how you can compare his story to Nikki & Paulo. :down:


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't like the time travel plots. I didn't like this episode very much. I think that focusing on time travel takes a lot a way from the story of the original characters, and is as interesting as Nikki and Paolo.


Folks with a viscereal antipathy to time travel plots should find another way to spend an hour, unless of course you just like watching Kate or somesuch. In my opinion the writers of LOST are again doing a superior and entertaining job treating the subject.

Speaking of Nikki, as someone who missed the season start and just watched the episodes after repairing my frozen TiVo, does anyone else besides me notice the constant camera focus on 'dead' Naiomi's eyes? She has the same blank look that Nikki and Paulo had when they were bitten by the spider and went into temporary paralysis. NB all the 'unnecessary' discussion about flying her bodacious, I mean dead, body back to the freighter. My take, she's alive and she'll be back. LOST is very good at presenting seemingly inconsequential information that later turns out to be relevant.

My apologies if this was already discussed ad nauseum in a previous show thread.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

getreal said:


> Nikki and Paulo were suddenly inserted ancillary characters which, just as suddenly, had their story arcs dealt with and wrapped up in one episode. Like the Universe course-correcting itself.
> 
> But Desmond is a character we have invested in. This episode addressed many mysteries about his relationship with Penny, her devotion to finding him, what happened to him when the hatch blew up, his ability to forecast Charlie's destiny, etc. etc. etc.


And also, Desmond has been shown to do "time travel" stuff already, so this didn't come out of nowhere. And the topic was introduced with the rocket test that Faraday did.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Cindy1230 said:


> Okay, so i've had a few days to process... so a new question i that i have is... drum roll..
> 
> So, by the end of the episode Desmond was 'perfect.' And we know that Minkowski did not get perfect because, we assume, he died. So, as Mike stated above... Desmond couldn't remember between 1996 and 2004... so why was Minkowski able to remember things?
> 
> ...


Desmond could always remember his 1996 things--the army etc. and Minkowski could remember stuff from his present life--like his boss told him not to answer Penny and he took out the boat and the equipment was sabotaged. Minkowski's time travel wasn't really shown to us except one time he said he was on a ferris wheel. Like when you wake up from a dream and remember one bit of it, and then it fades.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I think I am getting confused 

The way I interpreted what was happening to Desmond was that his present consciousness went back to 1996, but his 1996 consciousness came "back" to the helicopter in 2004. And that's why he didn't remember Sayid or anything about the Island. Right up until the end of the episode I was thinking, "So this is still the 1996 Desmond. Are they just going to leave him here now?"

Now, after having read all of the posts here, the overwhelming thought here is that the 2004 Desmond slipped back to 1996, then when he returned to 2004 his memories of the present had been erased. 

OK, I'm down with that, I understand and can function a little better now. I still think, though, that the writers made very little effort to ensure that the events were *not* interpreted in the way that I saw it at first.

So, can anyone point to something that says "There, that proves that it was the same 2004 Desmond and only his memories of Sayid and the Island were somehow erased"?


----------



## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

This is just a filler to me. I want the real LOST back. I want to see the island people and learn more about Ben and his people. A whole hour of Desmond is a waste of story line.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> Folks with a viscereal antipathy to time travel plots should find another way to spend an hour, unless of course you just like watching Kate or somesuch. In my opinion the writers of LOST are again doing a superior and entertaining job treating the subject.
> 
> Speaking of Nikki, as someone who missed the season start and just watched the episodes after repairing my frozen TiVo, does anyone else besides me notice the constant camera focus on 'dead' Naiomi's eyes? She has the same blank look that Nikki and Paulo had when they were bitten by the spider and went into temporary paralysis. NB all the 'unnecessary' discussion about flying her bodacious, I mean dead, body back to the freighter. My take, she's alive and she'll be back. LOST is very good at presenting seemingly inconsequential information that later turns out to be relevant.
> 
> My apologies if this was already discussed ad nauseum in a previous show thread.


Not to drag Nikki and Paulo even further into this, but has anyone thought that maybe Naomi got bit by a certain spider?

Turtleboy, not everyone likes time travel stories or even Desmond. I wouldn't put anyone down who feels that way, especially the sensible way you did. Some others were a little more, shall we say, commando about how they felt.  Reasonable people can disagree, the first word being the key one.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

SNJpage1 said:


> This is just a filler to me. I want the real LOST back. I want to see the island people and learn more about Ben and his people. A whole hour of Desmond is a waste of story line.


----------



## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

SNJpage1 said:


> This is just a filler to me. I want the real LOST back. I want to see the island people and learn more about Ben and his people. A whole hour of Desmond is a waste of story line.


Unfortunately, I think you're going to grow more disappointed, because I think Desmond is going to end up being a very big part of the storyline.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

SNJpage1 said:


> This is just a filler to me. I want the real LOST back. I want to see the island people and learn more about Ben and his people. A whole hour of Desmond is a waste of story line.


What? no, I want the real LOST back. The one where everyone was on an island and hadn't found anything like the hatch, back before Hurley went over the manifest, back before main characters had died. I miss every aspect of the series being a mystery, I miss not knowing that Locke used to be in a wheelchair.

I'm not sure what you want, but the story's progressing. People were complaining before that Lost never gave answers. Now that we have answers you complain that you want regression.

Greg


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Sorry for the long post. Just read through the thread and hit Multiquote for those things I wanted to respond to. (Man, I love the Multiquote feature.)


Turtleboy said:


> But there were a few cool things. Faraday has possibly gone through time travel himself. Is the Faraday on the Island going through it? WHEN did he write that Desmond was his constant in his notebook? In 1996? Recently?
> 
> Why is Desmond his constant? Does he love Desmond for some reason that hasn't been revealed yet? Is the Faraday on the Island the one in the Past, and he meets up with Desmond again in the future future?


He knew Desmond would be around in 2004, so it was reasonable for him to write that in his journal. Nothing more to it than that.


TiMo Tim said:


> This week's flaw (I think): when they handed Desmond the phone, did he press a button before talking? There was a
> 
> beep.


Was that just a HH reference because of the beep? Or did you really think there was a problem with him pushing a button before talking? Ever heard of a hold button?


jkeegan said:


> 2) We now know why she'd be so eager to reach him even after he dumped her.
> answer: because he contacted her after that, before going on the *solar* race around the world.. he went to her house, at least got her to let him in, broke the ice a bit, told her he needed her, that things weren't over between them, and that eight years from then, on chrismas eve, he'd call her.


Seriously? Are you still stuck on the "solar" race thing, or was that just a joke? (I would think that if you were joking, you'd have acknowledged it somehow, like with quotes or a smilie.)


Cindy1230 said:


> Wow, wow, wow.
> I have read all the posts but I am incapable of processing it all and putting into words. But I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and cried like a baby at the end. When Desmond was calling Penny, I thought that she was taking foooorrrrreeeevvvvveeeeer to pick up... very suspenseful.


Why did she take so long? If she was expecting his call, as the episode made clear, it seems odd that it took her so long to come to the phone. Just dramatic license, I guess.


Cindy1230 said:


> I thought that too, that it was linked to 'the sickness,' because why else would the doctor be injecting Minkowski with something, but to tell the audience _something. _


I don't think there was anything more to the Doc on the boat giving Minkowski a shot other than giving him a sedative so he didn't freak out. Once he gave the shot, he was immediately out, and we had no indication that when Desmond took the meds in the hatch that he had any such effects. Nor did Aaron or Claire have those effects. Therefore, I don't think there's anything to the theory that the meds are the same.


jeff125va said:


> For the Losties to think that it's _before_ Christmas would require enormously sloppy writing. There are enough definitive markers to put the island timeline at December 26th with near certainty. If they're so far off that they try to insinuate that Sayid thinks (unless it's because they've simply lost track, which we know they haven't) it's even a few days before Christmas would be so far off as to be considered a major continuity error.


Why are you giving more credence to Lostpedia and their assumptions than to the show itself? This episode firmly established that time on and off the island is the same, and that it was Dec. 24, 2004 in this episode. Although, if you persist in claiming that it must be Dec. 26 on the island, maybe you can satisfy yourself with the fact that there was an extra day in island time vs. boat time due to the island's "barrier."


skinnyjm said:


> DevdogAZ, where are you????


Here! I was out of town last week and just got a chance to watch the ep on Sunday night.


philw1776 said:


> Speaking of Nikki, as someone who missed the season start and just watched the episodes after repairing my frozen TiVo, does anyone else besides me notice the constant camera focus on 'dead' Naiomi's eyes? She has the same blank look that Nikki and Paulo had when they were bitten by the spider and went into temporary paralysis. NB all the 'unnecessary' discussion about flying her bodacious, I mean dead, body back to the freighter. My take, she's alive and she'll be back. LOST is very good at presenting seemingly inconsequential information that later turns out to be relevant.
> 
> My apologies if this was already discussed ad nauseum in a previous show thread.


Yes, it was discussed in previous threads. I think most agree that there is something to the fact that they kept focusing on her dead yet open eyes.


SNJpage1 said:


> This is just a filler to me. I want the real LOST back. I want to see the island people and learn more about Ben and his people. A whole hour of Desmond is a waste of story line.


 If you can't recognize that Desmond is key to the overall story, I think you're missing out on a lot.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Why did she take so long? If she was expecting his call, as the episode made clear, it seems odd that it took her so long to come to the phone. Just dramatic license, I guess.


Hey, maybe she had to pee! Not everyone can hold it all day, even in anticipation of hearing from your long lost love for the first time in 3+ years. That kind of thing always happens to me: I'm waiting for a phone call and the instant I step into the shower the phone rings. Drives me batty.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

madscientist said:


> Hey, maybe she had to pee! Not everyone can hold it all day, even in anticipation of hearing from your long lost love for the first time in 3+ years.


The phone was cordless, Desmond wouldn't have minded.

As an aside, the guy playing Faraday is fantastic. He's really good.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Bryanmc said:


> As an aside, the guy playing Faraday is fantastic. He's really good.


He looks like he could be Kris Kristofferson's son.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> (Man, I love the Multiquote feature.)


Call me stupid, I guess, but... it's a feature? I always do a reply, copy/paste into notepad or something, then go to another message, do the same... then copy/paste into my response. Wow. 

Greg


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Jumping the Shark indicates a show is past it's prime. It's done all it can and is on the downhill slide to nothingness. This show is nowhere near that. The reason shows jump the shark is that they don't know when it's over. They keep rehashing the same sad plot lines until the lack of an audience sends them packing. This show has a definate timeline. It has a predetermined end date. As long as that is true, and I have seen nothing so far that indicates that it's not, it won't jump the shark until all the questions have been answered. In a book it would be called the climax. The book ends shortly after the climax. The author usually has a few loose ends to tie up and then it's over. This episode answered some questions but it's definately not the climax.


If you asked me last season, I would've said the show could be on the way to jumping the shark. Last season seemed to take a lot away from the island...especially with the introduction of all these people living perfectly normally lives in houses and everything. But this season seems to be all about the mystery of the island. It doesn't matter who was on the island first or who the stories should be about...it all has to do with the mystery of the island...to me, the island has always been the major character. So it doesn't matter if it was Desmond-centric, we learned more about these mysterious properties of the island.

Good episode and by far much better than last season.  :up:


----------



## wouldworker (Sep 7, 2004)

gchance said:


> Call me stupid, I guess, but... it's a feature? I always do a reply, copy/paste into notepad or something, then go to another message, do the same... then copy/paste into my response. Wow.


Look for this little button:










You click it on the posts you want to quote, then click the "quote" button on the last one. All of the messages will be quoted for you.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Seriously? Are you still stuck on the "solar" race thing, or was that just a joke? (I would think that if you were joking, you'd have acknowledged it somehow, like with quotes or a smilie.)


I assumed he meant "solo race". Isn't that what Desmond did, go on a solo race around the world?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

wprager said:


> I think I am getting confused
> 
> The way I interpreted what was happening to Desmond was that his present consciousness went back to 1996, but his 1996 consciousness came "back" to the helicopter in 2004. And that's why he didn't remember Sayid or anything about the Island. Right up until the end of the episode I was thinking, "So this is still the 1996 Desmond. Are they just going to leave him here now?"
> 
> ...


From this week's podcast:


Spoiler



I think you had it right the first time.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Cindy1230 said:


> Okay, so i've had a few days to process... so a new question i that i have is... drum roll..
> 
> So, by the end of the episode Desmond was 'perfect.' And we know that Minkowski did not get perfect because, we assume, he died. So, as Mike stated above... Desmond couldn't remember between 1996 and 2004... so why was Minkowski able to remember things?
> 
> ...





stellie93 said:


> Desmond could always remember his 1996 things--the army etc. and Minkowski could remember stuff from his present life--like his boss told him not to answer Penny and he took out the boat and the equipment was sabotaged. Minkowski's time travel wasn't really shown to us except one time he said he was on a ferris wheel. Like when you wake up from a dream and remember one bit of it, and then it fades.


I feel silly quoting myself, but I still have a question. I appreciate your response Stellie, but I still don't get it.



aindik said:


> From this week's podcast:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


So, Im trying to figure out a way to ask my questions again without giving away the spoiler above. 

Hypothetically, if Desmonds 1996 consciousness came to 2004, and that is why he couldnt remember the island, etc. Then if that is the same case with Minkowski, except we dont know WHEN he flips back and forth from why is he able to remember stuff?!

My brain hurts.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

aindik said:


> From this week's podcast:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I need a transcript. (I'm deaf.) Lostpedia doesn't have it up yet. Any other places?


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> I mentioned this in last weeks thread and no one was jumping out of their seats like me when I said that the lawyer's character name in Frequency was named *Jack Shepard! *


I think that's very interesting too, though not because I think there's any connection between Frequency and Lost (apart from some coincidental themes are are becoming more apparent). There are many examples in all types of fiction (films, novels, etc) of characters named either Jack Shepard, John Shepard, or variants thereof. Most authors choose their character names quite carefully. Sometimes, as with Lost, the character names follow a specific theme (philosophers). Sometimes, the names are meant to give insight into the character (like the Oceanic lawyer named Abbadon). Sometimes they're just for fun. But they are seldom arbitrarily chosen. When an author chooses a name like "J. Shepard," there's a good chance they're trying to evoke a biblical parallel - with the "J" first name being a reference to Jesus, and "shepard" being further evocative of a shepherd leading a flock to some destination.

ETA: There's also a long literary history of giving protagonists with a messianic bent the initials J.C., for similar reasons. You can see this in action in classical literature - like the character Jim Casy in Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath," but it is prevalent in popular fiction, as well: e.g. John Connor of Terminator fame.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Cindy1230 said:


> Hypothetically, if Desmonds 1996 consciousness came to 2004, and that is why he couldnt remember the island, etc. Then if that is the same case with Minkowski, except we dont know WHEN he flips back and forth from why is he able to remember stuff?!


That's a good question. You could answer that Minkowski was told that stuff, like Desmond was told he was friends with Sayid, but that's kind of a lame explanation.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

danterner said:


> IWhen an author chooses a name like "J. Shepard," there's a good chance they're trying to evoke a biblical parallel - with the "J" first name being a reference to Jesus, and "shepard" being further evocative of a shepherd leading a flock to some destination.


Wow...I never thought of it that way. That makes a lot of sence given Jack's role on the island as the "leader". And with Jack's dad's name being Christian Shepherd that seems to give it even more of a biblical meaning.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

DLiquid said:


> That's a good question. You could answer that Minkowski was told that stuff, like Desmond was told he was friends with Sayid, but that's kind of a lame explanation.


Or what if we just don't know which direction Minkowski is traveling??? He could know all the stuff about the flashing light and the call that they weren't suppose to pick up because to him, he's reliving the past events that have already happened and when he zones out he's going to a time that's further in the future.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I assumed he meant "solo race". Isn't that what Desmond did, go on a solo race around the world?


Back in S2 when the first Desmond episode aired, there was debate here in the threads about whether he said he was on a "solo" race around the world, or a "solar" race around the world. I never understood those who thought he said "solar," but many people were adamant about it. However, I thought it had long since been resolved. So when I saw jkeegan use "solar" without any smilie or quotes or anything, I had to wonder if he was still holding to the idea that Desmond was on a "solar" race, whatever that may be.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Back in S2 when the first Desmond episode aired, there was debate here in the threads about whether he said he was on a "solo" race around the world, or a "solar" race around the world. I never understood those who thought he said "solar," but many people were adamant about it. However, I thought it had long since been resolved. So when I saw jkeegan use "solar" without any smilie or quotes or anything, I had to wonder if he was still holding to the idea that Desmond was on a "solar" race, whatever that may be.


Gaunt!


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> *No, we're the survivors!*


FYP.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Back in S2 when the first Desmond episode aired, there was debate here in the threads about whether he said he was on a "solo" race around the world, or a "solar" race around the world. I never understood those who thought he said "solar," but many people were adamant about it. However, I thought it had long since been resolved. So when I saw jkeegan use "solar" without any smilie or quotes or anything, I had to wonder if he was still holding to the idea that Desmond was on a "solar" race, whatever that may be.


That is hilarious. Too bad I missed that. 

Or maybe I just forgot about it.

EDIT: seems jkeegan was using it tongue-in-cheek this time around:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4878141#post4878141


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MickeS said:


> That is hilarious. Too bad I missed that.
> 
> Or maybe I just forgot about it.
> 
> ...


It starts here. Enjoy!!


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> It starts here. Enjoy!!


Thanks for that.

It's pretty cool to go back and read the old threads, you realize that we have actually learned a whole lot so far.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> (Man, I love the Multiquote feature.)


Ooooh.. I'd seen the icon but hadn't tried it yet. Sweeeeeet..


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Bryanmc said:


> The phone was cordless, Desmond wouldn't have minded.


Well, that presumes you have the foresight to take it with you. Not always the case.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

madscientist said:


> Well, that presumes you have the foresight to take it with you. Not always the case.


If we're talking in terms of waiting _*8 years*_ for a phone call on *that particular day*, I think you'd have the foresight to keep the phone with you all throughout the house.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Ooooh.. I'd seen the icon but hadn't tried it yet. Sweeeeeet..


Yup, you and me both. As soon as someone mentioned it I moved my mouse over that button and sure enough, that's what it was. I had never even clicked or moved my mouse over it. 

Greg


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

unicorngoddess said:


> Or what if we just don't know which direction Minkowski is traveling??? He could know all the stuff about the flashing light and the call that they weren't suppose to pick up because to him, he's reliving the past events that have already happened and when he zones out he's going to a time that's further in the future.


Except that he's (presumably) dead in the future.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Seriously? Are you still stuck on the "solar" race thing, or was that just a joke? (I would think that if you were joking, you'd have acknowledged it somehow, like with quotes or a smilie.)


Yup, I forgot again. I'm remembering the sound of Desmond saying it, I guess, and with his accent I hear solar.. Solo.

We had this discussion last season.  Doh.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

He's certainly dead in the present. That's gonna hurt his chances of a future. 

Wonder if there's a reverse _Quantum Leap_ rule - you can't go further into the future than your death? (I use the word "rule" loosely, of course. I misplaced my Time Traveler's Guide a while back.)


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> He's certainly dead in the present. That's gonna hurt his chances of a future.
> 
> Wonder if there's a reverse _Quantum Leap_ rule - you can't go further into the future than your death?


Charlie has already had a future after his death.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> Charlie has already had a future after his death.


Maybe his future is before his death. In the past, only not happened yet.


----------



## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Maybe his future is before his death. In the past, only not happened yet.


That is one of the MANY things we will not know until the end of the series.


----------



## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

I'm starting to have a hard time distinguishing between reality and non-reality, but isn't that what the people on the island will soon be facing?


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Maybe his future is before his death. In the past, only not happened yet.


Boy, I shouldn't have read that this late at night.


----------



## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

wprager said:


> Now, after having read all of the posts here, the overwhelming thought here is that the 2004 Desmond slipped back to 1996, then when he returned to 2004 his memories of the present had been erased.


No, I think 1996 Desmond came into the present, and returned to 1996. We don't know what happened to 2004 Desmond... unless the podcast says... I may have to check it out.



wouldworker said:


> Look for this little button:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude! I've been doing the copy/paste thing as well. This will officially be my last message using copy/paste.

I am warming to the idea that Naomi may be alive.


----------



## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

mqpickles said:


> Boy, I shouldn't have read that this late at night.


I agree!


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Are we *positive* that the flashes that introduce Daniel, Miles, Charlotte & Frank in "Confirmed Dead" are flash_backs_???


----------



## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

MacThor said:


> Are we *positive* that the flashes that introduce Daniel, Miles, Charlotte & Frank in "Confirmed Dead" are flash_backs_???


See that is what I'm saying..."distinguishing between reality and non-reality"...


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Does anyone think they will actually be able to explain EVERY question? There are wayyyyy too many. There are so many things that have happened that seemed to have been forgotten about. I was watching a season 1 episode and I realized how different the show is. They never really addressed those things. They just kept adding new things to wonder about.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aadam101 said:


> Does anyone think they will actually be able to explain EVERY question? There are wayyyyy too many. There are so many things that have happened that seemed to have been forgotten about. I was watching a season 1 episode and I realized how different the show is. They never really addressed those things. They just kept adding new things to wonder about.


No, they won't answer everything. It's impossible. However, I think they'll answer the things that are important. And there will always be someone unhappy about what the writers/producers determine to be important. When it's all said and done, and we have the answers that tell the story, someone will be complaining that we never found out what was wrong with Marvin Candle's arm, or why we saw an Oceanic Airlines logo in a picture of Gerald DeGroot.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

MickeS said:


> I assumed he meant "solo race". Isn't that what Desmond did, go on a solo race around the world?


Well, maybe he needed to sligshot around the Sun in order to time-travel.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> Well, maybe he needed to sligshot around the Sun in order to time-travel.


I don't understand, how does slingshotting around Sun help with time travel? What happens if he accidentally hits her with the slingshot? Would that make time stand still until she wakes up?


----------



## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> Does anyone think they will actually be able to explain EVERY question?


I'd say no. They haven't even explained the Apollo candy bars yet.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

MickeS said:


> That is hilarious. Too bad I missed that.
> 
> Or maybe I just forgot about it.
> 
> ...


nope, just forgot. 



Bryanmc said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> It's pretty cool to go back and read the old threads, you realize that we have actually learned a whole lot so far.


i thought the same thing.

Then I thought, when Lost is all over, we should have a thread (that everyone subscribes to) where we can all quote now-funny posts from over the past seasons, etc. It'll be weird when our group "disbands". I know there are other show threads etc so we're all still here, but not everyone likes the same shows etc. 



Charon2 said:


> No, I think 1996 Desmond came into the present, and returned to 1996. We don't know what happened to 2004 Desmond... unless the podcast says... I may have to check it out.
> 
> Dude! I've been doing the copy/paste thing as well. This will officially be my last message using copy/paste.


it's GREAT for the iPhone. Now I just wish there was an icon to show spoiler text in a popup - I have to click "quote" to read spoiler text on the phone.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't understand, how does slingshotting around Sun help with time travel? What happens if he accidentally hits her with the slingshot? Would that make time stand still until she wakes up?


Should I have said "around Sol"? I figure the use of the definite article (as in "*the* Sun") would not cause any ambiguities, but I guess I forgot this is the Lost thread (wait, should that have been "_a_ Lost thread"?)


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

MacThor said:


> Are we *positive* that the flashes that introduce Daniel, Miles, Charlotte & Frank in "Confirmed Dead" are flash_backs_???


I'm not sold on the fact that they were flashbacks yet. This was brought up in the thread where Daniel, Miles, Charlotte, and Frank were introduced. If you haven't read that thread yet you may want to go back and see where it was discussed. There are some good arguments that indicated they were flashbacks but I still think they could have been flash forwards (all but Naomi's).


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

wprager said:


> Should I have said "around Sol"? I figure the use of the definite article (as in "*the* Sun") would not cause any ambiguities, but I guess I forgot this is the Lost thread (wait, should that have been "_a_ Lost thread"?)


When you say this *is* a/the Lost thread, I think you're being very presumptuous, assuming that we even have a definition of what the "present" is in the show.. So since we're trying to reduce our aesthetic distance so as to embrace the show more fully, let's not go assume that we can just haphazardly use tenses, even here outside the show itself.. Maybe it _will be_ the Lost thread? And/or maybe the future of the thread lies in the past, in a thread discussing the Sid and Marty Krofft show of similar title, in some pocket of reality where this forum coexists at the time of the Dharma Initiative's heyday, when that thread would have taken place and been relevant?


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Back in S2 when the first Desmond episode aired, there was debate here in the threads about whether he said he was on a "solo" race around the world, or a "solar" race around the world. I never understood those who thought he said "solar," but many people were adamant about it. However, I thought it had long since been resolved. So when I saw jkeegan use "solar" without any smilie or quotes or anything, I had to wonder if he was still holding to the idea that Desmond was on a "solar" race, whatever that may be.


Consider British/Scottish/Irish speakers of English. They sometimes seem to add a subtle "r" sound to words that end in a vowel (or so it seems, at least, to American English speakers). Call it part of the accent. For example, my wife, a friend & I have joked a few times about how American Idol's Simon Cowell always seems to be calling Paula "Pauler" because of this quirk.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

goblue97 said:


> I'm not sold on the fact that they were flashbacks yet. This was brought up in the thread where Daniel, Miles, Charlotte, and Frank were introduced. If you haven't read that thread yet you may want to go back and see where it was discussed. There are some good arguments that indicated they were flashbacks but I still think they could have been flash forwards (all but Naomi's).


Cool! I will check that out. I really have to set a bunch of time aside to wade through LOST episode threads!


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

wprager said:


> Should I have said "around Sol"? I figure the use of the definite article (as in "*the* Sun") would not cause any ambiguities, but I guess I forgot this is the Lost thread (wait, should that have been "_a_ Lost thread"?)


For the last time, Sun did not have sex with Jae!


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Roadblock said:


> Care to explain these definitive markers for us?


In "D.O.C.", Juliet leaves the message on the tape for Ben saying that it's 6:00 AM on Saturday. She also says tells Sun that they crashed on the island "90 days ago." Now, both of those things can't be correct, since day 91 (91 - 1 = 90) would have been Tuesday, Dec. 21. So it seems much more likely that it was, in fact, Saturday, and that she just rounded off to 90. Saturday, Dec. 18 would have been day 88, or 87 days since the crash, so close enough in the context of telling her that the baby was conceived 53 days ago so it definitely happened on the island. (If 90 were correct and Saturday wrong, then we'd be even further off, as the intervening events would put the date at around 12/29 in "The Constant.")

Since that point, without recapping all eight episodes, the events and timeline clues that have been given put the events in "The Constant" at December 26. That being said, there is certainly the possibility of continuity errors by the writers. The day numbers in the enhanced versions of the recent episodes do seem to contradict other clues in the show. There are a number of clues that put the date at 12/26, but if one or more of them could be written off as an error, it could square away the timeline. I suspect that we'll know soon enough whether it's the same date on the island, and the previous timeline events would have to be reconciled with the unambiguous date of December 24 for "The Constant."


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> I'm not sold on the fact that they were flashbacks yet. This was brought up in the thread where Daniel, Miles, Charlotte, and Frank were introduced. If you haven't read that thread yet you may want to go back and see where it was discussed. There are some good arguments that indicated they were flashbacks but I still think they could have been flash forwards (all but Naomi's).


Naomi said when she landed that Oceanic 815 had been found and all the passengers were dead, and that it was all over the news. We later see four new characters hearing about the discovery of the wreckage on the news, as well as the news reports. We learn a little about each of the characters, then Naomi discusses with Abaddon the four people going on the mission with her, then they go on the mission.

So, instead of the news reports being the ones that Naomi was referring to which would have taken place some time between the crash and now (present on-island time), you're suggesting that either she was making it up entirely and that the wreckage is found some time in the future, after they all return from the island. Or that she was telling the truth, and that fake wreckages were found both before Naomi came to the island and after Charlotte, Miles, et. al. returned home.

Neither of those possibilities makes any sense. I do think it was strange that they showed us a newspaper and could have shown a date but didn't, but I still can't see how those could be flashforwards.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> So, instead of the news reports being the ones that Naomi was referring to which would have taken place some time between the crash and now (present on-island time), you're suggesting that either she was making it up entirely and that the wreckage is found some time in the future, after they all return from the island.


I am simply throwing it out there as a possibility. I don't think it was made very clear that those flashes went to the past, that's all. It is LOST afterall.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> I am simply throwing it out there as a possibility. I don't think it was made very clear that those flashes went to the past, that's all. It is LOST afterall.


I understand. I'm always skeptical about things that seem obvious and I avoid jumping to conclusions when even a remote possibility is left open. But after thinking through the implications of those scenes being flashforwards, I think it's one of those times we have to say that we're overthinking things.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> She also says tells Sun that they crashed on the island "90 days ago." Now, both of those things can't be correct, since day 91 (91 - 1 = 90) would have been Tuesday, Dec. 21. So it seems much more likely that it was, in fact, Saturday, and that she just rounded off to 90 ... <snip> blah-blah-blah - yadda-yadda-yadda ...
> 
> ... There are a number of clues that put the date at 12/26, but if one or more of them could be written off as an error, it could square away the timeline.





jeff125va said:


> ... I think it's one of those times we have to say that we're overthinking things.


You said it, brothah'.

I recommend that we all take the facts as presented on the show to be the facts, rather than some anal-compulsive over-analysis of timelines taken from the obsessive notes scribbled down by some fanatical fan.

The characters on the show said it was Dec. 24, 2004, so it WAS Dec. 24, 2004. Period. End. Stop. 
Quit challenging the facts as written.



Donbadabon said:


> They haven't even explained the Apollo candy bars yet.


There were no smilies on this one, so I assume that it is a serious concern.  Why would they NEED to explain that??? It's just a fictional name of a candy bar.

_Ugh!!_


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

getreal said:


> You said it, brothah'.
> 
> I recommend that we all take the facts as presented on the show to be the facts, rather than some anal-compulsive over-analysis of timelines taken from the obsessive notes scribbled down by some fanatical fan.
> 
> ...


But you're picking and choosing which "facts as written" you want to accept. Those facts would also have to include the explicit dates we've been given, such as September 22, 2004 as the date of the crash, numerous "[x] days ago" subtitles, etc. By accepting that it WAS Dec. 24, you are by default challenging other "facts as written." I'm simply pointing out inconsistencies. We also know what Daniel said about people on the island perceiving the passage of time differently than people going from the island to the freighter, so until we're given an explicit date from the perspective of someone on the island, I don't think we can come to a definitive conclusion.

That being said, I do think it will end up that it is also Dec. 24th on the island and that some previously stated date reference will have to be written off as a continuity error.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Just to add to the date debate...

How long was Minkowski in sickbay? Did he say?

Isn't it possible that know one had been back to the comm room to put X's on the calendar in the days since the room was trashed, and Minkowski was confined to sickbay?

I agree if they say it on the show, then that should be it. But, if you're looking for the curveball, here it is.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Alpinemaps said:


> Just to add to the date debate...
> 
> How long was Minkowski in sickbay? Did he say?
> 
> ...


Except that Desmond made the call as he told Penny he would. If it had actually been Dec. 25 or 26, wouldn't Penny have said, "I thought you said you were going to call on Christmas Eve? I sat by the phone all day and you never called."


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Alpinemaps said:


> Just to add to the date debate...
> 
> How long was Minkowski in sickbay? Did he say?
> 
> ...


What DevdogAZ said, plus it seems unlikely that Sayid wouldn't have known what day it was.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Here's a different take on the time-tripping.

Only the 1996 Desmond was traveling. The first cut from the helicopter to the army barracks was not a trip, but the start of a flashback. The flashback started at the *exact* time when the past Desmond just returned from a trip to the future, but a short trip. So to him it was like a very vivid dream (and he didn't question it much since he was just waking up anyway). After that point, we kept seeing the 1994 Desmond tripping back and forth. That explains the apparent memory loss quite well, as well as the lame explanation he offered up when confronted with what was going on (if that was the 2004 Desmond traveling back, he would have been much better prepared for what to expect, would realize much quicker what was happening, and would try much harder to cover up the fact that he thought he was time-tripping).


Spoiler



And what they said in the pod cast pretty much supports this.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> But you're picking and choosing which "facts as written" you want to accept. Those facts would also have to include the explicit dates we've been given, such as September 22, 2004 as the date of the crash, numerous "[x] days ago" subtitles, etc. By accepting that it WAS Dec. 24, you are by default challenging other "facts as written."


I maintain that if they state a specific date on the show, then that becomes the "fact". I do not challenge any specific dates mentioned. I suspend my disbelief in order to enjoy the show without frustrating myself.

But if someone casually says "I did this a month ago" or "a week ago", I don't take those statements as intended to be so precise. e.g., "I told Hurley about the hatch last week" to mean that if I am uttering the words at 3:04 pm on Tuesday, that I was telling it to Hurley at 3:04 pm last Tuesday. It would be approximately a week ago.

So if Juliet refers to "a month ago", there are months with 28, 29, 30 & 31 days. And if she says "2 months ago", you don't know for sure which combination of months she is referring to in her comment.
January and February would have 59 days. July and August would have 62 days.

So a difference of one or two days in a fan's calculation of the timeline is less important to me than the facts as written by the writers of the show.

Ay chihuahua!


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

wprager said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> And what they said in the pod cast pretty much supports this.


I listened to the podcast and don't remember this--could somebody tell me exactly what they said that you're referring to?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I listened to the podcast and don't remember this--could somebody tell me exactly what they said that you're referring to?





Spoiler



IIRC, there was discussion of fan speculation that it was 1996 Desmond traveling forward, rather than 2004 Desmond traveling backward. There was confirmation that this speculation was correct, and then discussion that people have a harder time with time travel stories where people travel forward than backward (a la Back to the Future).


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## 503Blunts (Apr 8, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think it's fair to tell critics of the show -- people who watch the show, like the show, and want to like the show, but are dissapointed or critical of certain plot developments to stop watching, or even worse, to take their opinion elsewhere.
> 
> I don't like the time travel plots. I didn't like this episode very much. I think that focusing on time travel takes a lot a way from the story of the original characters, and is as interesting as Nikki and Paolo.


Thank you for that. :up::up::up:

People here are a little overzealous about Lost, and so quick to jump in front of any and all bullets fired at it.

The show is unraveling at the seams... BOOK IT.

ITS LOST BABY!!!!! WE DUN CARE WHAT HAPPENS.. DID I MENTION ITS LOST!!! IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HAPPENS. CERTIFIED PLATINUM. IT GOES TRIPLE AND FOUR QUADRUPLE!!!! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO AWAY!!! WE DON'T LIKE YOOOOOOU.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> In "D.O.C.", Juliet leaves the message on the tape for Ben saying that it's 6:00 AM on Saturday.


How do we know she isn't lying or mistaken?

Furthermore, in this episode (or was it last episode?) they pretty strongly imply that Jin is not the baby's father. So unless there's a mysterious third source of sperm, Juliet's 53 day estimate would seem to be off. Unless they are just messing with our heads (likely).


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

503Blunts said:


> Thank you for that. :up::up::up:
> 
> People here are a little overzealous about Lost, and so quick to jump in front of any and all bullets fired at it.
> 
> The show is unraveling at the seams... BOOK IT.


Are you honestly saying you had no problems with the nearly infinite number of unanswered questions or the totally pointless side plots (e.g. the one with nikki and paolo) from previous seasons? Personally, I thought the show was unraveling at the seams back then.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

503Blunts said:


> The show is unraveling at the seams... BOOK IT.


Then it was unraveling back during the premiere.

Also, you could at least be intelligent about explaining why you don't like it. Turtleboy doesn't like it and expresses himself well. You, on the other hand, say things like:



503Blunts said:


> ITS LOST BABY!!!!! WE DUN CARE WHAT HAPPENS.. DID I MENTION ITS LOST!!! IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HAPPENS. CERTIFIED PLATINUM. IT GOES TRIPLE AND FOUR QUADRUPLE!!!! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO AWAY!!! WE DON'T LIKE YOOOOOOU.


You only have 100 posts, do you have multiple accounts?

Greg


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

503Blunts said:


> Thank you for that. :up::up::up:
> 
> People here are a little overzealous about Lost, and so quick to jump in front of any and all bullets fired at it.
> 
> ...


Troll.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So, I work near a commuter rail line, and I hear the train go by every once in a while..

It sounds sooooo much like the sound that plays while they show the Lost logo coming at us at the beginning of the episode.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> So, I work near a commuter rail line, and I hear the train go by every once in a while..
> 
> It sounds sooooo much like the sound that plays while they show the Lost logo coming at us at the beginning of the episode.


That's it, Jeff. We're sending you to Lost Rehab.

Greg


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> So, I work near a commuter rail line, and I hear the train go by every once in a while..
> 
> It sounds sooooo much like the sound that plays while they show the Lost logo coming at us at the beginning of the episode.


Every time I watch Lost, I am glad it is THX certified.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

gchance said:


> That's it, Jeff. We're sending you to Lost Rehab.
> 
> Greg


Cool! Do I get an imaginary friend Dave?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> So, I work near a commuter rail line, and I hear the train go by every once in a while..
> 
> It sounds sooooo much like the sound that plays while they show the Lost logo coming at us at the beginning of the episode.


I use the LOST logo swoosh sound as the ringtone on my phone. It starts soft, but its metallic screeching by the end is loud enough that I can easily hear it from a distance if the phone is not by my side.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

getreal said:


> I maintain that if they state a specific date on the show, then that becomes the "fact". I do not challenge any specific dates mentioned. I suspend my disbelief in order to enjoy the show without frustrating myself.
> 
> But if someone casually says "I did this a month ago" or "a week ago", I don't take those statements as intended to be so precise. e.g., "I told Hurley about the hatch last week" to mean that if I am uttering the words at 3:04 pm on Tuesday, that I was telling it to Hurley at 3:04 pm last Tuesday. It would be approximately a week ago.
> 
> ...


Maybe you're reading my posts too fast. I said that her statement about "90 days" should be ignored and assume that she was rounding, and go by her statement that Saturday was accurate.

I agree that explicitly stating a date is more reliable than making calculations based on a number of references and intervening events. I also believe, as I've stated (see my post about Sayid) that I expect to see an explicit confirmation that there is no discrepancy between the time on the island and off (the freighter and England), and we'll have to conclude that there was a continuity error somewhere along the way. Which is fine. I won't be concerned about it once we know for sure. If it weren't for what Daniel said, I'd agree right now that there must have just been an inconsistency somewhere along the way.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> How do we know she isn't lying or mistaken?
> 
> Furthermore, in this episode (or was it last episode?) they pretty strongly imply that Jin is not the baby's father. So unless there's a mysterious third source of sperm, Juliet's 53 day estimate would seem to be off. Unless they are just messing with our heads (likely).


I doubt that her character was lying or mistaken, but perhaps the writers miscalculated.

Which episode are you referring to, "D.O.C." or "The Constant" (or "Eggtown")? In any case, "D.O.C." confirmed that Jin is the father. That was the whole point of the episode. Juliet did the ultrasound to determine when the baby was conceived. If it was on the island, it was Jin's, but she would die. If not, it was Jae's baby, but they'd live. Even though "90 days" had to be an approximation, it's well over 53.

As to whether that itself is a lie, as it was with Ben (well, birth in his case) I just don't see the point. With Ben, there was a point to finding out later that he wasn't born on the island (he lies) and in this case it's far more significant.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Consider British/Scottish/Irish speakers of English. They sometimes seem to add a subtle "r" sound to words that end in a vowel (or so it seems, at least, to American English speakers). Call it part of the accent. For example, my wife, a friend & I have joked a few times about how American Idol's Simon Cowell always seems to be calling Paula "Pauler" because of this quirk.


So...they're from Boston?


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that Desmond made the call as he told Penny he would. If it had actually been Dec. 25 or 26, wouldn't Penny have said, "I thought you said you were going to call on Christmas Eve? I sat by the phone all day and you never called."





jeff125va said:


> What DevdogAZ said, plus it seems unlikely that Sayid wouldn't have known what day it was.


Doh! Oh well, so much for that theory!


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> When you say this *is* a/the Lost thread, I think you're being very presumptuous, assuming that we even have a definition of what the "present" is in the show.. So since we're trying to reduce our aesthetic distance so as to embrace the show more fully, let's not go assume that we can just haphazardly use tenses, even here outside the show itself.. Maybe it _will be_ the Lost thread? And/or maybe the future of the thread lies in the past, in a thread discussing the Sid and Marty Krofft show of similar title, in some pocket of reality where this forum coexists at the time of the Dharma Initiative's heyday, when that thread would have taken place and been relevant?


Whoa! William F. Buckley, is that you? Resurrected on (of all things) a _Lost_ thread?


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

Charon2 said:


> Dude! I've been doing the copy/paste thing as well. This will officially be my last message using copy/paste.


The multi-quote thing is a fairly new enhancement to the forum software. You haven't been missing out on it for all that long.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Consider British/Scottish/Irish speakers of English. They sometimes seem to add a subtle "r" sound to words that end in a vowel (or so it seems, at least, to American English speakers). Call it part of the accent. For example, my wife, a friend & I have joked a few times about how American Idol's Simon Cowell always seems to be calling Paula "Pauler" because of this quirk.


 So Paula=Pauler and Solo=Solar, yet brother=brothah and polar bear=polah beah. I'm glad to be a midwesterner, where we pronounce R's in the words that have them. 



jkeegan said:


> Then I thought, when Lost is all over, we should have a thread (that everyone subscribes to) where we can all quote now-funny posts from over the past seasons, etc. It'll be weird when our group "disbands". I know there are other show threads etc so we're all still here, but not everyone likes the same shows etc.


Well, Jeff, you have a couple years before you have to worry about that problem. You're stuck with us for a while.


gchance said:


> That's it, Jeff. We're sending you to Lost Rehab.
> 
> Greg


Hey, Jeff, Greg's found the answer already. We'll all be in Lost Rehab. Or maybe we'll all be on the new hit reality show Lost Rehab with Dr. Shepherd.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> Hey, Jeff, Greg's found the answer already. We'll all be in Lost Rehab. Or maybe we'll all be on the new hit reality show Lost Rehab with Dr. Shepherd.


But which Dr. Shepard? Jack Shepard, Christian Shepard, or... Aaron Shepard? 

Greg


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Maybe you're reading my posts too fast. I said that her statement about "90 days" should be ignored and assume that she was rounding, and go by her statement that Saturday was accurate.
> 
> I agree that explicitly stating a date is more reliable than making calculations based on a number of references and intervening events. I also believe, as I've stated (see my post about Sayid) that I expect to see an explicit confirmation that there is no discrepancy between the time on the island and off (the freighter and England), and we'll have to conclude that there was a continuity error somewhere along the way. Which is fine. I won't be concerned about it once we know for sure. If it weren't for what Daniel said, I'd agree right now that there must have just been an inconsistency somewhere along the way.


But I think you're missing the point that people are trying to make. You're claiming that there must have been a continuity error if it is in fact Dec. 24th. Why isn't it just as possible that you, or the person who compiles the timeline on Lostpedia, simply misinterpreted something or saw a time clue where there wasn't supposed to be one? Considering how carefully they seem to plan out the overall story, especially as it relates to time, I'd say that the latter is a much more likely explanation than a continuity error.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> But I think you're missing the point that people are trying to make. You're claiming that there must have been a continuity error if it is in fact Dec. 24th. Why isn't it just as possible that you, or the person who compiles the timeline on Lostpedia, simply misinterpreted something or saw a time clue where there wasn't supposed to be one? Considering how carefully they seem to plan out the overall story, especially as it relates to time, I'd say that the latter is a much more likely explanation than a continuity error.


Yeah, I am amused by people who think they are smarter and know more than the writers on the show, despite the ever-mounting evidence to the contrary...


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, I am amused by people who think they are smarter and know more than the writers on the show, despite the ever-mounting evidence to the contrary...


This happened before, no? When they tried to go through all the "time clues" in the Bible to determine the age of the planet. I believe they were off by more than 2 days, though.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> But I think you're missing the point that people are trying to make. You're claiming that there must have been a continuity error if it is in fact Dec. 24th. Why isn't it just as possible that you, or the person who compiles the timeline on Lostpedia, simply misinterpreted something or saw a time clue where there wasn't supposed to be one? Considering how carefully they seem to plan out the overall story, especially as it relates to time, I'd say that the latter is a much more likely explanation than a continuity error.


It's hard to misinterpret "Ben, it's Juliet. It's Saturday...."

How they get from Saturday to know that 8 days have past, rather than 6, I don't know.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

aindik said:


> It's hard to misinterpret "Ben, it's Juliet. It's Saturday...."
> 
> How they get from Saturday to know that 8 days have past, rather than 6, I don't know.


That's the part I'm struggling with as well. Yes, it was Saturday, and my handy-dandy Windows Date&Time Properties app tells me that would be Saturday the 18th. Can anyone provide the "proof" that last week's episode takes place 8 days later rather than 6?

P.S. I can't believe I'm getting drawn into this myself.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> But I think you're missing the point that people are trying to make. You're claiming that there must have been a continuity error if it is in fact Dec. 24th. Why isn't it just as possible that you, or the person who compiles the timeline on Lostpedia, simply misinterpreted something or saw a time clue where there wasn't supposed to be one? Considering how carefully they seem to plan out the overall story, especially as it relates to time, I'd say that the latter is a much more likely explanation than a continuity error.


We know the freighter is in sync with the real world, as evidenced by the phone call on Dec. 24th. But there is very definitely a time difference between the freighter and the island. It is not a production continuity error either. As Sayid asked (but of course wasn't answered)


> Then perhaps you'll share how we took off at dusk and landed in the middle of the day.


While I don't accept the Lostpedia timeline as gospel, I sure haven't come across any evidence to refute it. There are a lot of people going over that timeline, and no one has found fault with it yet. It's kind of like an unbalanced checkbook, with everyone trying to find where the penny (get it, Penny?) difference happened between the deposits and withdrawals.

Time is not moving at different rates on the island and the rest of the world, as has been suggested, but there is a surrounding field (probably represented by the storm the copter flew through) that causes or is caused by the time difference between the two. It has been tested with the rocket, can affect some people by mentally unsticking them in time, and stretched the time from when Sayid made the call to Jack and how long Jack actually waited for the call.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

balboa dave said:


> Time is not moving at different rates on the island and the rest of the world, as has been suggested, but there is a surrounding field (probably represented by the storm the copter flew through) that causes or is caused by the time difference between the two. It has been tested with the rocket, can affect some people by mentally unsticking them in time, and stretched the time from when Sayid made the call to Jack and how long Jack actually waited for the call.


The problem with that theory is that the island wouldn't be able to communicate with the ship in real time.

It's more likely that the island and the outside world are at the same time, and it passes at the same rate, but going through the "barrier" between the two causes you to lose time.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The problem with that theory is that the island wouldn't be able to communicate with the ship in real time.
> 
> It's more likely that the island and the outside world are at the same time, and it passes at the same rate, but going through the "barrier" between the two causes you to lose time.


I mentioned earlier that, perhaps, the time shift/slip/whatever is caused by that "barrier" surrounding the Island. The signal used by the satellite phones travels "straight" up and then down, introducing a transmission delay, but effectively by-passing the "barrier" which introduces the time shift. The helicopter and rocket went through the barrier; same for any boats. Not sure about the submarine.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> I mentioned earlier that, perhaps, the time shift/slip/whatever is caused by that "barrier" surrounding the Island. The signal used by the satellite phones travels "straight" up and then down, introducing a transmission delay, but effectively by-passing the "barrier" which introduces the time shift. The helicopter and rocket went through the barrier; same for any boats. Not sure about the submarine.


What Dave was saying was that it is one time on the island, and another off the island. And I'm saying no way.

You and I seem to agree...there is no time difference between the two locations, just some kind of chronal event that happens when you pass through the barrier.


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

wprager said:


> That's the part I'm struggling with as well. Yes, it was Saturday, and my handy-dandy Windows Date&Time Properties app tells me that would be Saturday the 18th. Can anyone provide the "proof" that last week's episode takes place 8 days later rather than 6?
> 
> P.S. I can't believe I'm getting drawn into this myself.


Exactly my question...where did the 8 days come from?


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

danterner said:


> I use the LOST logo swoosh sound as the ringtone on my phone. It starts soft, but its metallic screeching by the end is loud enough that I can easily hear it from a distance if the phone is not by my side.


I sometimes find myself saying (outloud) BAD ROBOT at the end of other shows that AREN'T LOST.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> I sometimes find myself saying (outloud) BAD ROBOT at the end of other shows that AREN'T LOST.


Yes. It took a while for me to stop saying: "Sit Ubu, sit. Good dog."

What was that from? Newhart?

Edit:Nevermind, it was Family Ties, not Newhart. I think Newhart had the little orange/white kitten in place of the MGH lion with a cute little meow.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I doubt that her character was lying or mistaken, but perhaps the writers miscalculated.


Why would you doubt her character is lying? She does it habitually. For all we know, it wasn't saturday at all and she said that to trip up ben.

As to the renewed controversy over the father, I'm referring to the conversation where Sun implied that the baby was hers but not his.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What Dave was saying was that it is one time on the island, and another off the island. And I'm saying no way.
> 
> You and I seem to agree...there is no time difference between the two locations, just some kind of chronal event that happens when you pass through the barrier.


Oops, sorry. You're right. We both are


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Mike Farrington said:


> Yes. It took a while for me to stop saying: "Sit Ubu, sit. Good dog."
> 
> What was that from? Newhart?
> 
> Edit:Nevermind, it was Family Ties, not Newhart. I think Newhart had the little orange/white kitten in place of the MGH lion with a cute little meow.


Family Ties? I never would have even thought of that. It's imprinted on my mind, but I can't recall from which show. I mean, I did watch Family Ties, but I thought it was something more recent. Scanning the list of shows produced by Ubu Productions, the only one that comes to mind is Spin City (a little more recent and, coincidentally, also starring MJF).


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> But I think you're missing the point that people are trying to make. You're claiming that there must have been a continuity error if it is in fact Dec. 24th. Why isn't it just as possible that you, or the person who compiles the timeline on Lostpedia, simply misinterpreted something or saw a time clue where there wasn't supposed to be one? Considering how carefully they seem to plan out the overall story, especially as it relates to time, I'd say that the latter is a much more likely explanation than a continuity error.


I definitely missed that if that's the point people are trying to make. But I respectfully disagree with it. Well, I don't disagree that it's possible, I just don't believe that to be the case.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, I am amused by people who think they are smarter and know more than the writers on the show, despite the ever-mounting evidence to the contrary...


Pointing out that someone may have made an error is not the same as thinking you're smarter or know more.



aindik said:


> It's hard to misinterpret "Ben, it's Juliet. It's Saturday...."
> 
> How they get from Saturday to know that 8 days have past, rather than 6, I don't know.


Exactly. Or to misinterpret night turning into day, or subtitles that say "x days ago" or "yesterday."

I'll explain below.



wprager said:


> That's the part I'm struggling with as well. Yes, it was Saturday, and my handy-dandy Windows Date&Time Properties app tells me that would be Saturday the 18th. Can anyone provide the "proof" that last week's episode takes place 8 days later rather than 6?
> 
> P.S. I can't believe I'm getting drawn into this myself.


The most recent "anchor" point is that "D.O.C." ended on Saturday at 6:00 am, when Juliet made the recording for Ben. That's day 88, Saturday 12/18. In "The Brig" the subtitle says "3 days ago" when Ben is listening to Juliet's message. That would put "today" for that episode at day 91, Tuesday 12/21 (could be later if he didn't get the tape until Sunday or later, but that would throw the timeline even further past Christmas Eve, so we'll make that assumption).

So "The Brig" ends with Locke carrying Cooper's body back to Ben and "The Others" on day 91, and he gets back to them with the body during "The Man Behind The Curtain" presumably later that day (remember, if it took him longer, then it's even later than 12/26 during "The Constant"). Sawyer gets back to the beach (from the Black Rock, where he killed Cooper) and tells everyone about the Ben/Juliet tape, and Juliet plays the other side revealing the Others' pregnant women kidnap plan. He gets back at night, which would be the night of day 91 (he killed Cooper "today" in "The Brig" which was day 91). Ben takes Locke to Jacob's house that night, so the next morning is day 92, 12/22, when Ben shoots Locke and leaves him for dead in the Dharma mass grave.

"Greatest Hits" begins in the morning that same day, day 92, Weds. Dec. 22, when they come up with the plan to ambush the Others that night and for Charlie and Desmond to go to the Looking Glass station. "Through The Looking Glass" picks up later in day 92, when Charlie got down to the Looking Glass and the Losties were starting their trek to the communications tower while Sayid et. al. waited for the Others on the beach. The next day (93, Thurs. 12/23) Charlie dies, they get to the tower and turn off Rousseau's transmission (this is confirmed by both the number of iterations and the captions in the enhanced rerun. i.e., it said it had been 91 days since they first heard the message (which was day 2) and make contact with Minkowski.

"The Beginning of the End" picks up from that point, still on day 93. That night, they split up between Locke and Jack, and Faraday arrives on the island.

The next day, (94, Fri. 12/24) they meet up with Miles, Frank and Charlotte ("Confirmed Dead"). "The Economist" continues that day and ends later in the day with Sayid and Desmond leaving with Frank in the helicopter.

"Eggtown" begins the next morning (Locke brings Ben breakfast, Kate and Claire are having coffee, etc. So that's day 95, Christmas (Sat. 12/25). Stuff happens throughout the day, then Kate spends the night with Sawyer and wakes up with him the next day, so that episode ends on day 96, Saturday Dec. 26.

"The Constant" picks up that morning, when Jack talks to Sayid via the sat phone.

I think that's pretty solid. Now I'm leaning toward it being two days later on the island, as opposed to a continuity error, since we know that two nights passed on the island since the helicopter left, because we see two clearly distinct mornings on the island during "Eggtown." So if they do tell us it's Dec. 24 on the island, I'm not sure what to think. We know that it seemed like an hour's trip for Sayid and Des, but when they arrived, it was earlier in the day. But we don't know which day, because the timeline may be unreliable. It seems that they left on the 24th, if Juliet was correct when she said it was Saturday. But if she was correct about that, then it's definitely the 26th on the island.

In any case, if they tell us that it's December 24th on the island when Jack talks to Sayid, then it couldn't have been Saturday approximately 90 days since the crash when Juliet left the message for Ben. If that's not a continuity error, then what would you call it?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Mike Farrington said:


> Yes. It took a while for me to stop saying: "Sit Ubu, sit. Good dog."


Woof!

I _still_ do that, sometimes. 
Also "Grrr. Arrg." which is, I think, Joss Whedon?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

wprager said:


> Family Ties? I never would have even thought of that. It's imprinted on my mind, but I can't recall from which show. I mean, I did watch Family Ties, but I thought it was something more recent. Scanning the list of shows produced by Ubu Productions, the only one that comes to mind is Spin City (a little more recent and, coincidentally, also starring MJF).


I know "Sit Ubu Sit" was from Family Ties and I believe it was also at the end of Spin City.

And yes, Newhart did the little meow (which I think was a person saying "meow"). Just got the season 1 DVD's last week.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Wow, that's very, very detailed. Thank you for taking the time to do this.

However, I have a little nit to pick:



> "Eggtown" begins the next morning...


Is there anything that specifically points to Eggtown beginning the next day? When parallel stories are being shown in sequence like that, it is often that the "second" scene takes starts pretty much at the same time as a previously shown scene.

Granted, that doesn't counter the helicopter leaving the Island on the 24th and taking two days (by Island Reckoning -- need a "LotR Reference" smiley ) to arrive on the boat. However for the people actually on the helicopter they left the Island and arrived on the boat on the same day, i.e. on the 24th.

Which leads me, inexorably (we need a "Matrix Reference" smiley), to accept that there is something fishy here. If the helicopter leaves the Island on the 24th, then Jack speaks to him on the sat phone on the 26th. Except it is still the 24th on the ship. Is that a problem? Well, with several people being "unstuck in time" it probably is not a problem; just another question to be answered ... in time.



jeff125va said:


> I definitely missed that if that's the point people are trying to make. But I respectfully disagree with it. Well, I don't disagree that it's possible, I just don't believe that to be the case.
> 
> Pointing out that someone may have made an error is not the same as thinking you're smarter or know more.
> 
> ...


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> Why would you doubt her character is lying? She does it habitually. For all we know, it wasn't saturday at all and she said that to trip up ben.
> 
> As to the renewed controversy over the father, I'm referring to the conversation where Sun implied that the baby was hers but not his.


I guess anything's possible.

I know what you're referring to now. But she was in no way implying that it wasn't Jin's. Juliet would have to be lying about _everything_ for it not to be Jin's. The increased sperm count, the age of the baby, etc. What would her motive be? She may lie about things, but she definitely seems to care about figuring out why the mothers and babies are dying.

In any case, Sun certainly _believes_ that it's Jin's baby, so I don't know how you can interpret her comment the way you seem to be interpreting it. It was just a slip of the tongue from her guilt over the possibility that it might not have been Jin's.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

danterner said:


> Woof!
> 
> I _still_ do that, sometimes.
> Also "Grrr. Arrg." which is, I think, Joss Whedon?


Firefly!


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

wprager said:


> Wow, that's very, very detailed. Thank you for taking the time to do this.
> 
> However, I have a little nit to pick:
> 
> ...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Pointing out that someone may have made an error is not the same as thinking you're smarter or know more.


My problem isn't with pointing out discrepancies, it's the insistence some people have that they're right and the writers are wrong.

I am utterly convinced that there is (and has been for a long time) a timeline on the writers' room wall that lays everything out in excruciating detail, and that when all is said and done we will see that any apparent discrepancies are due to us simply not yet having all the information.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jeff125va said:


> ...it seems unlikely that Sayid wouldn't have known what day it was.


I think I have to retract this, at least as an argument in favor of it being the same day on and off the island (I've been considering arguments on both sides, despite my more recent posts). Regardless of what the actual date was when they left the island, it seemed like an hour's trip to Sayid. He realized, of course, that it they had left at dusk but arrived at midday, but if he knew what day it was and it came as no surprise, that means that it was Dec. 24 when he left the island. Since two nights have clearly passed on the island, it's Dec. 26th on the island when he talks to Jack on the satphone.

For it to be Dec. 24th both on the island and on the freighter when they spoke on the satphone, they must have left the island on the 22nd, and Sayid didn't seem to realize any discrepancy in that regard.


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## JMikeD (Jun 10, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> My problem isn't with pointing out discrepancies, it's the insistence some people have that they're right and the writers are wrong.
> 
> I am utterly convinced that there is (and has been for a long time) a timeline on the writers' room wall that lays everything out in excruciating detail, and that when all is said and done we will see that any apparent discrepancies are due to us simply not yet having all the information.


Rob, the Babylon 5 crowd went though the same thing for 5 years, a vocal group of people insisting that JMS had to be making this all up as he went along, while he insisted that the story line was all planned out in broad and medium strokes across the 5 year arc.

You just had to wait and watch the story unfold, which it did. But some events in the first season didn't pay off until the last season, although in general he didn't let things go unanswered for as long as the Lost writers are doing. But Lost is a different kind of story.

Frankly, I'm content to let the Lost story unfold in it's own time without trying to second-guess the creators every step of the way. But that's just me.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

JMikeD said:


> Frankly, I'm content to let the Lost story unfold in it's own time without trying to second-guess the creators every step of the way. But that's just me.


Hear hear! Any hole-poking of Lost will have to wait until the end for me.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I think I have to retract this, at least as an argument in favor of it being the same day on and off the island (I've been considering arguments on both sides, despite my more recent posts). Regardless of what the actual date was when they left the island, it seemed like an hour's trip to Sayid. He realized, of course, that it they had left at dusk but arrived at midday, but if he knew what day it was and it came as no surprise, that means that it was Dec. 24 when he left the island. Since two nights have clearly passed on the island, it's Dec. 26th on the island when he talks to Jack on the satphone.
> 
> For it to be Dec. 24th both on the island and on the freighter when they spoke on the satphone, they must have left the island on the 22nd, and Sayid didn't seem to realize any discrepancy in that regard.


This sounds good enough to me. I'm just gonna stick with the idea that the island is "unstuck" in time since it was exposed to a lot of radiation and magnets and just seems to be two days ahead of "real time" at all times. Physics might not like the idea, but I do...for now


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> My problem isn't with pointing out discrepancies, it's the insistence some people have that they're right and the writers are wrong.
> 
> I am utterly convinced that there is (and has been for a long time) a timeline on the writers' room wall that lays everything out in excruciating detail, and that when all is said and done we will see that any apparent discrepancies are due to us simply not yet having all the information.


I haven't said that the writers were wrong. And I do think we will find out that there hasn't been an error on the writers' part. I think the information that's missing is that it IS Dec. 26 on the island.

But if we do find out that it's Dec. 24th on the island then it couldn't have been Saturday when Juliet said it was. There's an indisputable sequence of events between then and now putting the date on the island at Dec. 26. If I'm wrong, please point out where. I'm not entirely ruling out some false narration by Juliet but I can't even think of a hint as to why we shouldn't consider that reliable. They'd basically have to go back and revisit the entire story-line of Juliet's double-agent act on Ben and why she lied on the tape and whether she was lying to Sun, etc. etc. It seems much more likely to me that it was a mistake when she said "Saturday" than we were being intentionally misled, if those are the only two possibilities. I'm not _insisting_ that's the case, it just seems more likely. And it's not like I'm saying the writers are terrible if they turn out to have made a mistake there.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> In any case, Sun certainly _believes_ that it's Jin's baby, so I don't know how you can interpret her comment the way you seem to be interpreting it. It was just a slip of the tongue from her guilt over the possibility that it might not have been Jin's.


I don't know how you COULDN'T interpret that scene that way. Watch it again and tell me exactly what the implication is. We discussed it here on the forums as well.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> Yes. It took a while for me to stop saying: "Sit Ubu, sit. Good dog."
> 
> What was that from? Newhart?
> 
> Edit:Nevermind, it was Family Ties, not Newhart. I think Newhart had the little orange/white kitten in place of the MGH lion with a cute little meow.


Mary Tyler Moore had that too.

The one that I can't get out of my head is after Robot Chicken.. They have the sound of a large hammer striking an anvil or something, (with a white background and a light grey picture of a building?), and all I can think of is the ending to The Muppet Show that used to go "duuh duh duh duh duhhhhhhhhh.. DUH DUUUH DUUUH DUH.. DUUUUUUUUUUHHH".. (even though, as it turns out, it seems that it was a drumroll that preceded the duh's, not an anvil sound):


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Here's another thought.

What if the writers looked at the 2007 calendar instead of 2004? Then Saturday would be the 15th, and 8 days later would have been the 23rd. There were numerous examples of how the 8 days could have been longer (nothing to make it shorter, though). It could be as simple as that -- a mistake. 

Was this discrepancy ever brought up as a question on the podcasts? Or did it come up since the last podcast?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Mary Tyler Moore had that too.
> 
> The one that I can't get out of my head is after Robot Chicken.. They have the sound of a large hammer striking an anvil or something, (with a white background and a light grey picture of a building?), and all I can think of is the ending to The Muppet Show that used to go "duuh duh duh duh duhhhhhhhhh.. DUH DUUUH DUUUH DUH.. DUUUUUUUUUUHHH".. (even though, as it turns out, it seems that it was a drumroll that preceded the duh's, not an anvil sound):


That was also at the end of Dragnet. VERY memorable. 

Greg


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> I don't know how you COULDN'T interpret that scene that way. Watch it again and tell me exactly what the implication is. We discussed it here on the forums as well.


How did she go from believing it's Jin's baby and that she is going to die (since it was conceived on the island) to believing that it isn't Jin's? The only implication is that she at one point wasn't sure and still feels guilty about it. It's quite common for a mother to say "my baby" even when there's absolutely no doubt about the child's paternity. She was, after all, pointing out that she wanted the baby to grow up in Korea instead of America where Jin was suggesting, so it makes sense that she used a pronoun referring to herself.

I admit, I fervently doubted that she had had sex with Jae (before we ever saw them lying in bed naked together, not after that) but at least there were some hints at that time that they had. What hints have there been that Juliet was completely lying about the ultrasound? She would have to have been off by at least 6-7 weeks, depending when Jae was killed and when they were last together. Sun would have been so far along she wouldn't have needed a pregnancy test.

However, 53 days doesn't really seem to fit either. Even if you give or take a couple of days, she and Jin weren't even on speaking terms at that point. So if you're suggesting that it was still on the island but with someone other than Jin, then I guess maybe. Only about 12 days went by between Jin getting back from the whole raft adventure and Sun taking the pregnancy test. I just don't know what other suggestions there have been that she was with anyone else.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> How did she go from believing it's Jin's baby and that she is going to die (since it was conceived on the island) to believing that it isn't Jin's? The only implication is that she at one point wasn't sure and still feels guilty about it. It's quite common for a mother to say "my baby" even when there's absolutely no doubt about the child's paternity. She was, after all, pointing out that she wanted the baby to grow up in Korea instead of America where Jin was suggesting, so it makes sense that she used a pronoun referring to herself.


There was a long pause and then they were interrupted after Jin corrected her. There was clearly something implied. It is possible that it was just a little tease by the writers, but if not, the implication is that either she will divorce him and keep the baby or the baby isn't his.

53 days prior (according to lostpedia, which we are for some reason trusting), Jin was not even in the same camp, and they hadn't been on good terms for some time prior to that. The whole timeline of Juliet's message to ben does not make sense. It seems far more likely to me that the one scene contained an error than the one that just occurred where christmas eve had significant importance and no one even made mention of a potential two day gap.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> So Paula=Pauler and Solo=Solar, yet brother=brothah and polar bear=polah beah. I'm glad to be a midwesterner, where we pronounce R's in the words that have them.


And how would you pronounce "ménage-a-trois"?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> There was a long pause and then they were interrupted after Jin corrected her. There was clearly something implied. It is possible that it was just a little tease by the writers, but if not, the implication is that either she will divorce him and keep the baby or the baby isn't his.
> 
> 53 days prior (according to lostpedia, which we are for some reason trusting), Jin was not even in the same camp, and they hadn't been on good terms for some time prior to that. The whole timeline of Juliet's message to ben does not make sense. It seems far more likely to me that the one scene contained an error than the one that just occurred where christmas eve had significant importance and no one even made mention of a potential two day gap.


I guess we'll see. She could be aware of the timing and possibly know something that we don't know. I've underestimated Sun's sluttiness before, so who knows.

I'm not sure what you mean by the timeline not making sense.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

wprager said:


> Here's another thought.
> 
> What if the writers looked at the 2007 calendar instead of 2004? Then Saturday would be the 15th, and 8 days later would have been the 23rd. There were numerous examples of how the 8 days could have been longer (nothing to make it shorter, though). It could be as simple as that -- a mistake.
> 
> Was this discrepancy ever brought up as a question on the podcasts? Or did it come up since the last podcast?


I highly doubt that. I agree with what Rob said about them having a big wall with a timeline mapping everything out. They must, when you consider all of the episodes like "The Other 48 Days", "Expose", etc. with all of the "x days ago" stuff tying into previous events from different perspectives.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by the timeline not making sense.


I meant that if you pretend that episode doesn't exist then there appear to be no discrepancies. If you don't pretend it doesn't exist, then you have a discrepancy with the 53 day statement and with the saturday / 90 days statement. Rather than accept that maybe that episode was off, you seem to be intent on this episode being off.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I guess we'll see. She could be aware of the timing and possibly know something that we don't know. I've underestimated Sun's sluttiness before, so who knows.


Thinking about the dynamics between Jin & Sun from the first season, I would think that it could be likely that they had sex within that 53 day timeline in "D.O.C." where Sun just lay there and let Jin get his rocks off.

Since then, however, Jin has been shown to be a loving husband who would seemingly not force himself on his wife. His character has grown significantly since being on the island.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> How did she go from believing it's Jin's baby and that she is going to die (since it was conceived on the island) to believing that it isn't Jin's? The only implication is that she at one point wasn't sure and still feels guilty about it. It's quite common for a mother to say "my baby" even when there's absolutely no doubt about the child's paternity. She was, after all, pointing out that she wanted the baby to grow up in Korea instead of America where Jin was suggesting, so it makes sense that she used a pronoun referring to herself.
> 
> I admit, I fervently doubted that she had had sex with Jae (before we ever saw them lying in bed naked together, not after that) but at least there were some hints at that time that they had. What hints have there been that Juliet was completely lying about the ultrasound? She would have to have been off by at least 6-7 weeks, depending when Jae was killed and when they were last together. Sun would have been so far along she wouldn't have needed a pregnancy test.
> 
> However, 53 days doesn't really seem to fit either. Even if you give or take a couple of days, she and Jin weren't even on speaking terms at that point. So if you're suggesting that it was still on the island but with someone other than Jin, then I guess maybe. Only about 12 days went by between Jin getting back from the whole raft adventure and Sun taking the pregnancy test. I just don't know what other suggestions there have been that she was with anyone else.


Was she around when Faraday did his little experiment? Maybe she figured that, if a rocket takes a half hour (or was that 2 hours?) to complete a 30 second trip, that Jae's guys too a while to complete their little trip.

I am, of course, just joking


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> I meant that if you pretend that episode doesn't exist then there appear to be no discrepancies. If you don't pretend it doesn't exist, then you have a discrepancy with the 53 day statement and with the saturday / 90 days statement. Rather than accept that maybe that episode was off, you seem to be intent on this episode being off.


The only thing I'm intent on is that certain things can not simultaneously be true. If it was in fact Saturday when Juliet said it was, then it can not have been Dec. 24th (from Jack's perspective) when he talked to Sayid on the satphone in "The Constant." It had to be Dec. 26.

I'm not ruling out one possibility or the other. But only one can be true.

As for the 53 days, if that's correct, but it was really Thursday when she left Ben's message, we're still talking about 85 days since they'd been on the island, more than enough of a difference to be sure she got pregnant on the island. But, because of the icy relations between her and Jin 53 days prior, it does raise the possibility that you're correct about the baby not being Jin's. I wouldn't call it a discrepancy per se, it's not like we can know for sure that they weren't together. Although I think it would be a very safe assumption if we could pin it to the period of time where Jin had gone back to live on the beach and work on the raft and Sun was still staying in the caves. But I'm not sure if we can take Juliet's estimate from the ultrasound with that high a degree of certainty.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I don't believe this to be the case, but just to throw it out there, it's possible that everyone's perception of time is off as well. As in, maybe Juliet thought it was Saturday when she said it was, while in reality it was only Thursday. We've seen the island mess with everyone's minds, so why can't it mess with your perception of the passage of time?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jking said:


> I don't believe this to be the case, but just to throw it out there, it's possible that everyone's perception of time is off as well. As in, maybe Juliet thought it was Saturday when she said it was, while in reality it was only Thursday. We've seen the island mess with everyone's minds, so why can't it mess with your perception of the passage of time?


She knew what day the plane crashed and how many days had passed since then. And we know that from the Losties' perspective, their flight left Sydney on 9/22, and that it was 9/22 on the island when they crashed. Even if time is going faster or slower than one would perceive it elsewhere, she can still count how many times the sun has gone down and come up since then. There may be a difference in time perception on the island and off, but there hasn't really been any suggestion that it's different for different people on the island.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, I can't place it, but I _thought_ there was one time when we saw, in a caption on the screen, what the date was, once.. (not "day 4", but "September x" or something).. Is my mind making that up?

The more I think about it the less I believe that's true, but I wanted to ask in case anyone else remembered and I'm not crazy. If that were true, and they labeled an off-island moment with a date (in an on-screen caption - I'm not talking about newspapers, voice, etc), that'd be quite different from the on-island captions of "Day 5", etc. But again, I think that initial half-thought of mine was wrong..


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Ok, I can't place it, but I _thought_ there was one time when we saw, in a caption on the screen, what the date was, once.. (not "day 4", but "September x" or something).. Is my mind making that up?
> 
> The more I think about it the less I believe that's true, but I wanted to ask in case anyone else remembered and I'm not crazy. If that were true, and they labeled an off-island moment with a date (in an on-screen caption - I'm not talking about newspapers, voice, etc), that'd be quite different from the on-island captions of "Day 5", etc. But again, I think that initial half-thought of mine was wrong..


Any chance you had subtitles on and someone _said_ September x? I know Desmond mentioned September 22 when he figured out that the crash was caused when he didn't enter the numbers in time.

I just re-watched the entire series in January and don't recall anything like that. Not that my memory's perfect, of course. And I think it's normally been "x days ago" as opposed to "day x." But I don't remember any non-closed-captioning subtitles like you're half-thinking.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> She knew what day the plane crashed and how many days had passed since then. And we know that from the Losties' perspective, their flight left Sydney on 9/22, and that it was 9/22 on the island when they crashed. Even if time is going faster or slower than one would perceive it elsewhere, she can still count how many times the sun has gone down and come up since then. There may be a difference in time perception on the island and off, but there hasn't really been any suggestion that it's different for different people on the island.


Well, we have the comment Faraday made about the sun looking different, or daylight looking different or something of that nature, and we have the fact that the helicopter left the island at dusk and arrived 30 minutes later on the boat in daylight, so I'm not sure she (or anyone, including us) can trust their perception of the passage of time based on the rising and setting of the sun.


----------



## 503Blunts (Apr 8, 2005)

gchance said:


> Then it was unraveling back during the premiere.
> 
> Also, you could at least be intelligent about explaining why you don't like it. Turtleboy doesn't like it and expresses himself well. You, on the other hand, say things like:
> 
> ...


Time travel
That Big list of unanswered questions
Nothing is out of bounds for this show, NOTHING. Ohh sonic the hedge hog is here!! I LOVE IT!!!

Are you multiple account police?? I want a badge number. I thought multiple account police never turned caps lock off. CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR THE COOL.

Sorry, I only have 1 account. Maybe you lost the touch? Time to send the jersey up to the rafters. You had a great run champ.



TAsunder said:


> Are you honestly saying you had no problems with the nearly infinite number of unanswered questions or the totally pointless side plots (e.g. the one with nikki and paolo) from previous seasons? Personally, I thought the show was unraveling at the seams back then.


Both. Back then there was the promise of some sort of coherent answers. Unfortunately Lost and the magical island has turned into the island of broken promises and disappointment.

People claim this most recent episode was some sort of prodigious step forward with the island and the show in general.

'omg that was like the biggest and bestest episode of lost evar. Desmond is like totally unstuck in time!! And then they weren't gone as long as it seemed!!! omglolbbqyes!!!!'

Have you been watching??????? HAVE YOU? It is always 1 step forward, 18 steps back with this show. LOOK AT THE LIST!!

THIS LIST 



jkeegan said:


> Troll.












stop spamming Lennie.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Any chance you had subtitles on and someone _said_ September x? I know Desmond mentioned September 22 when he figured out that the crash was caused when he didn't enter the numbers in time.
> 
> I just re-watched the entire series in January and don't recall anything like that. Not that my memory's perfect, of course. And I think it's normally been "x days ago" as opposed to "day x." But I don't remember any non-closed-captioning subtitles like you're half-thinking.


I did have subtitles on quite a bit, and I've considered it, but no - my half-memory was of something where I'd say "wow, that's the first time we saw a date"..

(And my example of September was bad, because I thought it was recent.. but I ran through the series 4 stuff in my head and didn't think I remembered it in any particular place)

Eh, I'm losing it. Ping pong for me!


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jking said:


> Well, we have the comment Faraday made about the sun looking different, or daylight looking different or something of that nature, and we have the fact that the helicopter left the island at dusk and arrived 30 minutes later on the boat in daylight, so I'm not sure she (or anyone, including us) can trust their perception of the passage of time based on the rising and setting of the sun.


I'm not sure that you can consider Faraday's comments about how sunlight shone on the island or what happened when Sayid was en route from the island to mean that the sun setting and rising don't mark the passage of one day. They all seem to know what each other means when they say things like "tomorrow" and "yesterday", etc.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> I did have subtitles on quite a bit, and I've considered it, but no - my half-memory was of something where I'd say "wow, that's the first time we saw a date"..
> 
> (And my example of September was bad, because I thought it was recent.. but I ran through the series 4 stuff in my head and didn't think I remembered it in any particular place)
> 
> Eh, I'm losing it. Ping pong for me!


I'd think that if there were such a definitive statement of a date, it would be prominently featured in Lostpedia's timeline. Since nobody can seem to remember anything like that, including those that treat the timeline as gospel  , I think it's safe to say it didn't happen.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

503Blunts said:


> Time travel
> That Big list of unanswered questions
> Nothing is out of bounds for this show, NOTHING. Ohh sonic the hedge hog is here!! I LOVE IT!!!


What's your problem, bitterman? You don't like the show, so what? Don't watch, go somewhere else. Remember the wisdom of Obi-Wan: "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

And the Sonic joke is as tired as the caps lock. It wasn't funny the first time.



> Are you multiple account police?? I want a badge number. I thought multiple account police never turned caps lock off. CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR THE COOL.


That, or the stoned. Are you the show-reality police? I mean really, what's your point? We should all realize that your subjective opinion is "correct" and stop watching the show?


> Both. Back then there was the promise of some sort of coherent answers. Unfortunately Lost and the magical island has turned into the island of broken promises and disappointment.
> 
> People claim this most recent episode was some sort of prodigious step forward with the island and the show in general.
> 
> ...


Do you think that list is news? Ooo, hey, great detective work finding that on some obscure site; I bet the creators of the show would hate to find that the weakness of their show is laid bare on a message board for everyone to see! What, Lost is full of unanswered questions?! Wow, I never realized.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

503Blunts said:


> That Big list of unanswered questions


As offensive as your post was, I actually looked at "the list". 
It is in need of updating, as many of the questions listed have already been answered.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> I did have subtitles on quite a bit, and I've considered it, but no - my half-memory was of something where I'd say "wow, that's the first time we saw a date"..
> 
> (And my example of September was bad, because I thought it was recent.. but I ran through the series 4 stuff in my head and didn't think I remembered it in any particular place)
> 
> Eh, I'm losing it. Ping pong for me!


Is it possible you may be thinking of the recent episode "Confirmed Dead"? (The episode that introduced the freighter team with flashbacks for each of them. I think that was Confirmed Dead, right?) While that episode didn't show a specific date on the screen (as far as I recall), it was relatively unique in that it did list specific _places_ on the screen. Maybe that's what you're recalling?


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

503Blunts said:


> Both. Back then there was the promise of some sort of coherent answers. Unfortunately Lost and the magical island has turned into the island of broken promises and disappointment.
> 
> People claim this most recent episode was some sort of prodigious step forward with the island and the show in general.
> 
> 'omg that was like the biggest and bestest episode of lost evar. Desmond is like totally unstuck in time!! And then they weren't gone as long as it seemed!!! omglolbbqyes!!!!'


It can't be both. You explicitly said in your first post that seasons 1, 2, and 3 were strong and that's why everyone is overlooking how allegedly bad this season is.

Not only can it not be both (unless you want to admit that you are just posting random opinions that change with each reply), the very things about which you are complaining were present in prior seasons. Desmond has been "time traveling" for some time. It didn't just start in this episode. Did you miss all of season 3?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I'm not sure that you can consider Faraday's comments about how sunlight shone on the island or what happened when Sayid was en route from the island to mean that the sun setting and rising don't mark the passage of one day. They all seem to know what each other means when they say things like "tomorrow" and "yesterday", etc.


All I'm saying is in a "world" where a man's mind travels through time, smoke monsters can infiltrate your innermost thoughts, and people are seeing dead loved ones walk around (not to mention a mysterious cabin that changes location), I'm not prepared to put a lot of stock in someone's perception of what day of the week or month it is.


----------



## 503Blunts (Apr 8, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> It can't be both. You explicitly said in your first post that seasons 1, 2, and 3 were strong and that's why everyone is overlooking how allegedly bad this season is.
> 
> Not only can it not be both (unless you want to admit that you are just posting random opinions that change with each reply), the very things about which you are complaining were present in prior seasons. Desmond has been "time traveling" for some time. It didn't just start in this episode. Did you miss all of season 3?


What is this 'it cant be both' nonsense? It is both.

With the promise of answers... season 1, 2, and 3 were strong and pretty darn entertaining.

You have to realize that Lost has never changed(1 step forward, 18 steps back). The shtick is tired.

Was Desmond time traveling in s3 or was he having the always super cool future visions?

Hypothesizing and speculating on what is going on is OK, but at the end of the day its pointless. Who had 'leaving-the-island-might-cause-you-to-shift-in-time-,-you--betta-get-an-anchor-quick' in the forum pool??

getreal, also mentioned that he big list of unanswered questions needs updating - Yes, I agree. However, the update will include posting a lot more questions than answers.

Lost apologists are about as pompous as it gets.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

503Blunts said:


> With the promise of answers... season 1, 2, and 3 were strong.
> 
> You have to realize that Lost has never changed(1 step forward, 18 steps back). The act is getting tired.


 Says you. But you're right that it hasn't changed, you just lost patience. I don't understand why you think you're any more astute than the Chicken-littles who have been chanting the same mantra you are now since season two, or us suckers who still enjoy the show. I mean, what took you so long? That list you love the link has been around for 2+ years.



> Was Desmond time traveling in s3 or was he having the always super cool future visions?
> 
> Hypothesizing and speculating on what is going on is kind of fun, at the end of the day its pointless. Who had 'leaving-the-island-might-cause-you-to-shift-in-time-you-,-betta-get-an-anchor-quick' in the forum pool??


You are repeating yourself, again. And just like sonic, the 'Lost-pool' reference wasn't funny, insightful or clever the first time, there's no need to repeat it.



> Lost apologists are about as pompous as it gets


Pot, meet kettle.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Aren't these threads long enough without troll-food?


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The problem with that theory is that the island wouldn't be able to communicate with the ship in real time.
> 
> It's more likely that the island and the outside world are at the same time, and it passes at the same rate, but going through the "barrier" between the two causes you to lose time.


I don't think your reply is a disagreement, just a matter of different perspective. If moving through the barrier causes you to move forward or backward 2 days (more likely something closer to 42 hours, not 48) in time, which is the viewpoint of the characters, isn't that the same thing as saying both the island and freighter exist at the same time, only 2 days apart, which the viewpoint of the observers (us, the viewers)?

My theory of the barrier is based on observing how matter and energy are being affected. There is direct evidence that objects coming through the barrier are strongly affected (matter, actually moving in time) and radio conversation, once established, happens in real time between the two states (energy). I think the consciousness displacement is a related effect, but it requires both contact with the barrier and some exposure to e/m radiation, as both Desmond and the radio guy (Minkowski) have, and is what the doctor asked about. The connection between past and present consciousness is then caused by some type of a short circuit induced by the barrier. Perhaps the amount of radiation exposure determines how far back the short circuit can go. As the mind tries to heal itself, the oscillation between past and present occurs, and the "constant" that exists in both times is required to dampen it. Completely unrelated Fun Fact: Fisher Stevens (Minkowski), was in the movie Short Circuit.

Once the helicopter flew into the barrier, the entire Desmond story is being told from 1996 Desmond's viewpoint. We don't know what happened to 2004 Desmond during that time yet, or even if that consciousness was swapped or suppressed, although the blank stares of the characters seem to indicate it was being suppressed.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

503Blunts said:


> What is this 'it cant be both' nonsense? It is both.


No, due to the properties of the English language and basic logic, it cannot both have been bad and good overall in seasons 1, 2, and 3.



> With the promise of answers... season 1, 2, and 3 were strong and pretty darn entertaining.
> 
> You have to realize that Lost has never changed(1 step forward, 18 steps back). The shtick is tired.


So you no longer find the promise of answers entertaining?



> Was Desmond time traveling in s3 or was he having the always super cool future visions?


Time travel. They had an episode about it. Did you miss it?



> Hypothesizing and speculating on what is going on is OK, but at the end of the day its pointless.


Let me get this straight... you like the promise of unanswered questions, but consider it pointless to speculate what the answer would be?



> Lost apologists are about as pompous as it gets.


That's funny, I was thinking you were the apologist. You keep saying how great seasons 2 and 3 were. I thought they had a lot of absolute rubbish in them. Why are you giving them a pass? Just because they had unanswered questions? That would seem to make you the ideal candidate for brainless TV shows then, since they could just throw in terrible writing and you'd love it as long as there were some questions unanswered.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> Mary Tyler Moore had that too.


See, that's not a coincidence.

MGM = big roaring lion.

MTM (her production company) = cute little meowing kitten.


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Alpinemaps said:


> Just to add to the date debate...
> 
> How long was Minkowski in sickbay? Did he say?
> 
> ...


I read 300+ posts - just sure that I'm the only person to think of it that way and am all excited to share my new theory... and blammo! you beat me to it. :up:  



DevdogAZ said:


> Except that Desmond made the call as he told Penny he would. If it had actually been Dec. 25 or 26, wouldn't Penny have said, "I thought you said you were going to call on Christmas Eve? I sat by the phone all day and you never called."


I can see where her reaction, including not immediately answering, could contribute to the above understanding (of it being the 26th) without her actually saying the words...


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

getreal said:


> And how would you pronounce "ménage-a-trois"?


Well, I'm a midwesterner, but I was a French major. That one gives me no problem whatsoever. 

And I hope the smilie did convey that I was being a smart-ass rather than an anti-Brit bigot. Some of my best friends are Brits. Not really, but my brother-in-law, is. Wait, make that my brohah-in-lawr.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jeff125va said:


> jeff125va said:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by jeff125va View Post
> ...


This reminds me: At the time Sayid said, "I didn't realize it was almost Christmas," I wondered why he would think he should have been anticipating Christmas. It's not a holiday for him, or for hardly anyone in the country where he spent most of his life.

I don't know, but it could be significant that that line was given to one of the characters least likely to celebrate Christmas. In other words, it could mean that it's 12/26 and, unlike most people on the island, he wouldn't be attributing much significance to the end of December, so it's more credible that he would lose track of a couple days around Christmas.

It's also possible it wasn't thought out well by the writers (I know, blasphemy). Or that Sayid is even more "western" than I thought.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Maybe Johnny #5 Poisoned him for his insulting "Indian" accent. 

Or for being a Scab.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

/ START time wasting with troll


503Blunts said:


> Have you been watching??????? HAVE YOU? It is always 1 step forward, 18 steps back with this show. LOOK AT THE LIST!!
> 
> THIS LIST


This trite LIST helps explain your many problems.
Most of the 'questions' you cite as yet unanswered are irrelevant trivia, details that in most any show will never be answered and rightfully so because they're not interesting. Of the genre such as... what was the name of Hurley's cat?

You need to focus on the most importand details, issues where the story has been advanced. Perhaps to your taste an insufficient # of questions have been answered by this time. I could see that but to make gross hyperboles such as 1 step fwd and 18 back discredits whatever lame point you're attempting to make.

/END time wasting with troll


----------



## HellFish (Jan 28, 2007)

*re: Sun's remark about their kid.*

I recall my mom saying stuff like that "My son WILL NOT do blah blah blah." I don't think she was inferring that my dad wasn't my real dad (I HOPE NOT!) I think she was just stressing a point that she had some control. This sounds similar to how Sun talked.

*re: Lost Time/Time Travel -- inconsistency*

I refuse to get involved in that debate. The writers have given us markers throughout the series to help clarify the timeline us fans have (the Lostpedia timeline being the most recognized).

Why don't we wait and see what happens when the helicopter flies back to the island? That may answer some questions, and it's probably 1 or 2 eps away.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

mqpickles said:


> This reminds me: At the time Sayid said, "I didn't realize it was almost Christmas," I wondered why he would think he should have been anticipating Christmas. It's not a holiday for him, or for hardly anyone in the country where he spent most of his life.
> 
> I don't know, but it could be significant that that line was given to one of the characters least likely to celebrate Christmas. In other words, it could mean that it's 12/26 and, unlike most people on the island, he wouldn't be attributing much significance to the end of December, so it's more credible that he would lose track of a couple days around Christmas.
> 
> It's also possible it wasn't thought out well by the writers (I know, blasphemy). Or that Sayid is even more "western" than I thought.


Yeah, it is a bit curious, but he has spent some time in "Western" countries so it's not entirely surprising that he was sort of aware, nor that he was mostly unaware, since they all (except Nikki) seemed to forget Thanksgiving entirely.

But I still don't think that it's as significant as you're suggesting. From Sayid's perspective, we know that it's still only the 24th, so even if it had been Jack or someone from a more Christmas-oriented country, it's not all that unlikely that they wouldn't have realized it either.


----------



## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> This reminds me: At the time Sayid said, "I didn't realize it was almost Christmas," I wondered why he would think he should have been anticipating Christmas. It's not a holiday for him, or for hardly anyone in the country where he spent most of his life.
> 
> I don't know, but it could be significant that that line was given to one of the characters least likely to celebrate Christmas. In other words, it could mean that it's 12/26 and, unlike most people on the island, he wouldn't be attributing much significance to the end of December, so it's more credible that he would lose track of a couple days around Christmas.
> 
> It's also possible it wasn't thought out well by the writers (I know, blasphemy). Or that Sayid is even more "western" than I thought.


Around 12% of Iraqis are Christian, so it is feasible that he knows about Christmas and is familiar with it. It's even possible that he's one of the 12%.  Even then, you don't have to be Christian to celebrate Christmas. It happened in my family when I was young, and that was also in a Middle Eastern country.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

It may only be a 1 day discrepancy, not 2. The mistake comes in the assumptions around Desmond's phone call. He said he would call Penny on Christmas Eve. But not necessarily on Christmas Eve _his time_.

If it was after 3 or 4pm in London when Desmond called then it would be December 25th on the ship. Not the 24th, but it would still be the 24th in London.

There is a clock on Penny's mantel to the right of the Christmas tree that appears to read 6:30. Based on her dress, the candles and the tree lights being lit (not to mention a fire in the fireplace), it would seem to be 6:30pm.

So there's half the difference. The other so-called missing day is deliberate I think, for 2 reasons. One, I believe in the theory (Rob's ?) of a laid out calender and two, it have been even more romantic for Desmond to say he'd call on Christmas. (Healing both his time issues and ours, eh?  )


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TheGreyOwl said:


> Around 12% of Iraqis are Christian, so it is feasible that he knows about Christmas and is familiar with it. It's even possible that he's one of the 12%.  Even then, you don't have to be Christian to celebrate Christmas. It happened in my family when I was young, and that was also in a Middle Eastern country.


Iraq also used to be a very Westernized country, up to the first Iraq War...i.e., when Sayid was growing up. And if I understand correctly, since then he has lived in the West. So he has probably been exposed to Christmas most of his life.


----------



## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

I just rewatched this before deleting it. I enjoyed it more the second time. :up:


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

danterner said:


> Is it possible you may be thinking of the recent episode "Confirmed Dead"? (The episode that introduced the freighter team with flashbacks for each of them. I think that was Confirmed Dead, right?) While that episode didn't show a specific date on the screen (as far as I recall), it was relatively unique in that it did list specific _places_ on the screen. Maybe that's what you're recalling?


Bingo, I think that's what I was remebering. Thank you, and never mind.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

TheGreyOwl said:


> Around 12% of Iraqis are Christian, so it is feasible that he knows about Christmas and is familiar with it. It's even possible that he's one of the 12%.


I'm pretty sure it was implied very strongly in S1 that he is Muslim. The ep. when he was kidnapped by Rousseau? I am picturing him hanging from that tree upside down and he said an Islamic prayer (i.e., one that mentioned the prophet Mohammed).


TheGreyOwl said:


> Even then, you don't have to be Christian to celebrate Christmas. It happened in my family when I was young, and that was also in a Middle Eastern country.


My best friend from high school and her family celebrate Christmas and they are Muslim (from Egypt). But I don't think they did until they moved to the US.

But I think you (and Rob) have answered my question. I just wondered if an Iraqi Muslim who hasn't been in Western culture long (and thinking about it, there are a lot of years of his life unaccounted for since we only saw brief snippets of him in France and Australia) has the automatic association of late Dec. with Christmas. And it sounds like the answer is yes, that the holiday resonates more strongly in predominantly Muslim countries than I would have expected.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> It may only be a 1 day discrepancy, not 2. The mistake comes in the assumptions around Desmond's phone call. He said he would call Penny on Christmas Eve. But not necessarily on Christmas Eve _his time_.
> 
> If it was after 3 or 4pm in London when Desmond called then it would be December 25th on the ship. Not the 24th, but it would still be the 24th in London.
> 
> ...


Even though I also agree that they've planned out the calendar very well, I'm not convinced that that necessarily means down to such details as the clock on Penny's mantel or what time zone the ship and island are located in. But for the sake of discussion...

Based on everything we know about where the island might be... what the pilot said about turning back toward Fiji, what Desmond and Rousseau said about the distance from Fiji and Tahiti, it's about a 12-hour time difference, give or take an hour, maybe 2. That could mean they're on the other side of the IDL from Australia, but I think since it was Sept. 22 when they left Australia and also Sept. 22 according to Desmond's printouts when they crashed, that it's safe to assume that they didn't cross it, or if they did, they turned back and crossed it again.

So if we're going to rely on Penny's clock and assume it's the 24th in London, it would have to be around 6:30 am on the ship, probably on the 25th. I lost track of how long they had been below deck on the ship. Could it possibly have been that long? It was still sunny when they went down there, IIRC.

I think we should assume that the calendar on the ship is correct (including if midnight had passed and they hadn't yet put an "X" through the 24th), and that it's the 24th for Penny as well, since that's when she was expecting his call. If we have to ignore the time zone difference to do that, I think that's reasonable. I think we might just have to take it at face value.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Jeff Jensen's latest article has some very interesting details about Desmond, time-travel and paradox, confirmed by Damon Lindelof. The paradox stuff surprised me; that is not how I thought it was going to work...

ETA: the stuff below has no spoilers for tonights episode; the full article does



Spoiler



WHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO DESMOND? 
In ''The Constant,'' Desmond became ''unstuck in time'' after flying through a thundercloud crackling with strange electricity. He experienced something like time travel, though not bodily time travel; instead, his consciousness shuttled between two different time periods, Island present 2004 and Desmond's past 1996. But here's the tricky twist: Desmond's Island-present mind wasn't the one doing the time traveling. When Desmond got hit with Island magic, his consciousness got knocked off-line and was replaced by his 1996 self. It was this older Desmond consciousness that toggled between present and past throughout the episode. Once Desmond '96 completed the errand of getting Penny's phone number so he could call her on Christmas Eve 2004, Desmond's present-day mind came back online, but rebooted with the new memories created by his time-travel adventure. I know: tricky stuff. But I had the chance to run all this by Damon Lindelof - and he says this interpretation is correct.

THE MINKOWSKI EXCEPTION 
Desmond had the time-warp blues, but freighter freak Minkowski had Marty McFly Mania: Due to his own exposure to electromagnetic magic, he began psychically commuting back to a pleasant day on a Ferris wheel. He died desperately trying to zip-line back to this happy day one more time. Coldly poignant, I thought. Notice: Unlike Desmond's time-travel story, Minkowski's present day consciousness was making the trip. Lindelof says this difference was designed to make a very important point: ''As Faraday explains in the episode, the effect is random. Sometimes a person can be displaced by minutes, other times, years. And the direction of the effect is equally unpredictable. Our way of demonstrating this was to give Minkowski a wildly different experience than Desmond was having.'' Lindelof says none of this is arbitrary; exposure to electromagnetism or radiation plays a role. But he adds: ''Looking for specific rules for how all this works will lead you down the path of insanity.''

PARADOX R/X, or ''HOW COURSE CORRECTION WORKS'' 
To be clear, Desmond's past was different before ''The Constant.'' Before his time-travel adventure, Desmond never met Faraday at Oxford, never got Penelope's digits. As a consequence of changing the past, Desmond's personal history has been ''course corrected'' by The Powers That Be, beginning from the moment he walked away from Penny's apartment. Lindelof says this interpretation is also correct. But here's a Big Question: since scoring Penelope's phone number, has Course-Corrected Desmond lived his life knowing that on Christmas Eve 2004, he MUST be on a freighter in the South Pacific in order to make a call to Penelope if he wants any chance of having a future with her? Lindelof says this is indeed a matter we should be mulling. Perhaps in the future, Lost will give us an episode that replays Desmond's backstory (getting the boat from Libby; killing Kelvin; meeting the castaways) from the point of view of this knowingness.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I stopped reading pretty quick. That article gives spoiler info about tonight's episode (the one after this thread). I'll be happy to read it later I guess.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

grrrrrrrr.. The lamp in my Sony Grand Wega blew last night.. Replacement bulb won't arrive until Tuesday. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr...

Time to lug the old 25" two-ton old NTSC tube tv out of the bedroom (hasn't even been plugged in in years, and I never repeated the multi-room-viewing setup that we had in the last house).

NTSC.. (shiver)


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> I stopped reading pretty quick. That article gives spoiler info about tonight's episode (the one after this thread). I'll be happy to read it later I guess.


I didn't take it that way. It seemed more like confirmation of stuff that has been theorized about from "The Constant." It doesn't even seem like stuff that would really be spelled out for us in an upcoming episode. Well, other than


Spoiler



the fact that Desmond does get his memory back


 but I think that was strongly hinted at when


Spoiler



Desmond said that he's "perfect."


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> grrrrrrrr.. The lamp in my Sony Grand Wega blew last night.. Replacement bulb won't arrive until Tuesday. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr...
> 
> Time to lug the old 25" two-ton old NTSC tube tv out of the bedroom (hasn't even been plugged in in years, and I never repeated the multi-room-viewing setup that we had in the last house).
> 
> NTSC.. (shiver)


I hate to tell you this, but Lindelof said in that interview that the clues that will answer every mystery will be revealed tonight, but only in the "HD" portion of the screen. Bad timing.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I didn't take it that way. It seemed more like confirmation of stuff that has been theorized about from "The Constant." It doesn't even seem like stuff that would really be spelled out for us in an upcoming episode.


I think he meant if you click through to the full article, not the stuff in spoiler tags above; the first part of the complete article is a tease for tonights episode...


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> I hate to tell you this, but Lindelof said in that interview that the clues that will answer every mystery will be revealed tonight, but only in the "HD" portion of the screen. Bad timing.


Oooh! You so mean!


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> I think he meant if you click through to the full article, not the stuff in spoiler tags above; the first part of the complete article is a tease for tonights episode...


Oops, sorry! You said that, I must have skimmed over that line too fast.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

SoBelle0 said:


> Oooh! You so mean!


Should I have included a smilie?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Good call Jeff, lots of spoilers there.

The best part of the article, though, are the sponsored links for Lip Plumpers Reviews. "Do lip plumpers work? Read reviews of the best and worst lip plumpers!" My big question is, what about Lost and that article have to do with plumping lips? The big picture of Minkowski? His lips are plump, I guess.

Greg


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

AHA! Later on in the article one of the sub-headings is titled, "The Lips of Turbulence". Hehehe.

Greg


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I'm surprised that this has hardly been mentioned (if it even has?), but I'm wondering who unlocked the door on the freighter. Since we've yet to see Regina, she would be my first guess. But maybe too obvious. Could it possibly be Ben's "man on the boat"? It wouldn't really be helping Ben directly (that we can tell) but if helping them was working against the people on the freighter who were out to get Ben, then it might have been intended to help Ben somehow.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> I'm surprised that this has hardly been mentioned (if it even has?), but I'm wondering who unlocked the door on the freighter.


It has, but it wasn't important to us, what with all the talk about Desmond and all. When it was left unlocked my immediate thought was the helicopter pilot.



jeff125va said:


> Could it possibly be Ben's "man on the boat"? It wouldn't really be helping Ben directly (that we can tell) but if helping them was working against the people on the freighter who were out to get Ben, then it might have been intended to help Ben somehow.


I had thought this as well but the pilot makes more sense.

Greg


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> grrrrrrrr.. The lamp in my Sony Grand Wega blew last night.. Replacement bulb won't arrive until Tuesday. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr...
> 
> Time to lug the old 25" two-ton old NTSC tube tv out of the bedroom (hasn't even been plugged in in years, and I never repeated the multi-room-viewing setup that we had in the last house).
> 
> NTSC.. (shiver)


I'm disappointed, Jeff. If you were a true Lost fan, you'd be at Best Buy right now, buying another HDTV.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

gchance said:


> It has, but it wasn't important to us, what with all the talk about Desmond and all. When it was left unlocked my immediate thought was the helicopter pilot.
> 
> I had thought this as well but the pilot makes more sense.
> 
> Greg


The other guys took him to talk to the ship's captain, right? I guess anything could have happened after that, but to me that makes it seem unlikely.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

JYoung said:


> I'm disappointed, Jeff. If you were a true Lost fan, you'd be at Best Buy right now, buying another HDTV.


Seriously. What's their return policy?


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> Seriously. What's their return policy?


You'd probably just have to pay the 15% restocking fee. Just take it back Friday and say, "My LOST experience wasn't what I was hoping for so this tv is no use to me!"


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

unicorngoddess said:


> You'd probably just have to pay the 15% restocking fee. Just take it back Friday and say, "My LOST experience wasn't what I was hoping for so this tv is no use to me!"


Apparently not:


> Restocking fee
> A restocking fee of 15% will be charged on opened notebook computers, projectors, camcorders, digital cameras, radar detectors, GPS/navigation and in-car video systems unless defective or prohibited by law. A restocking fee of 25% will be charged on Special Order Products, including appliances unless defective or prohibited by law.


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## TiMo Tim (Jul 20, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Was that just a HH reference because of the beep? Or did you really think there was a problem with him pushing a button before talking? Ever heard of a hold button?


Yes. (to all of the above)

Remember, this is the "Who are you? Where am I?" Desmond, who's never seen this phone before. Is the phone's interface so iPhone-intuitive-like that someone who has it in their hand for less than 3 seconds knows which button to press? (Was it even on hold?)


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

getreal said:


> There were no smilies on this one, so I assume that it is a serious concern.  Why would they NEED to explain that??? It's just a fictional name of a candy bar.
> _Ugh!!_


lol. I was just trying to be funny. I didn't put the smilies in, since I assumed it would be taken as tongue-in-cheek.

But that being said, why hasn't the Apollo candy bar been explained? Is there some conspiracy behind this??


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Donbadabon said:


> lol. I was just trying to be funny. I didn't put the smilies in, since I assumed it would be taken as tongue-in-cheek.
> 
> But that being said, why hasn't the Apollo candy bar been explained? Is there some conspiracy behind this??


It's certainly not one of the more intriguing mysteries of the show, but I still wonder why it's the only non-DHARMA branded food item on the island.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I always just figured Apollo Candy would turn out to be a wholly-owned subsidiary of Widmore Industries.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Bingo, I think that's what I was remebering. Thank you, and never mind.


You are also thinking of the number 2.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

The enhanced version confirmed that the clocks in Daniel's experiment were in fact synchronized. But didn't Daniel say something like "that can't be right", or something to that effect? It certainly seemed like he expected there to be some sort of time-warp effect going to and from the island, so did he expect it to be longer than 31 minutes?


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> So, what was with Penny's dad plugging the bathroom sink?


My wife thought he did it on purpose to trigger Desmond's leaping, but I think it was just a storytelling device to let us see how much time had passed when Desmond returned (by how much water was on the floor), combined with a bit of Widmore just being the kind of person who walks around assuming other people will clean up his messes. Which is often true of the rich and powerful, and might turn out to be significant in other ways.

So we've got an explanation for Desmond's flashes after the purple-sky. But still no explanation for his clothes. Did they travel through time too? 



Ruth said:


> Someone had x'ed out each day on the calendar up to December 24.


Except for four days in October, which seemed odd.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> Except for four days in October, which seemed odd.


They were all X'd out. Those days were just done in yellow, which made them harder to see.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

DAMMIT!
It still gets to me 8 years later, I wanted a Lost fix last night, I watched The Constant for the umpteenth time, I know the story, I know what happens, I know where the arc and plot goes, and I STILL cry all the way through Des and Penny's Christmas Eve phone call.

Well done Lost, well done!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Tried doing the big smile but it was turning it into lowercase d.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I miss this level of involvement. Sure, Lost was special, but these days it's pretty rare for an episode thread to get past a couple of pages, and many never get past the first. And of course a lot of shows don't even get episode threads, and some don't even get season threads!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I miss this level of involvement. Sure, Lost was special, but these days it's pretty rare for an episode thread to get past a couple of pages, and many never get past the first. And of course a lot of shows don't even get episode threads, and some don't even get season threads!


Agreed. LOST was great, but I enjoyed the conversation and speculation here at least as much.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

We have to go back!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Remember the speculation that the Smoke Monster was a cloud of nanoparticles? Good times!


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## jamesl (Jul 12, 2012)

ah, just reminds how they screwed that show up so much 

it had so much promise


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

jamesl said:


> ah, just reminds how they screwed that show up so much
> 
> it had so much promise


This. It was still good but it could have been so much better.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jamesl said:


> ah, just reminds how they screwed that show up so much
> 
> it had so much promise


I don't agree that they screwed it up, but I do agree that expectations for the final season were way too high and there was no way to live up to them, then they made a few missteps that were not up to what it could have been, but all in all I was satisfied.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jamesl said:


> ah, just reminds how they screwed that show up so much
> 
> it had so much promise





BeanMeScot said:


> This. It was still good but it could have been so much better.





dianebrat said:


> I don't agree that they screwed it up, but I do agree that expectations for the final season were way too high and there was no way to live up to them, then they made a few missteps that were not up to what it could have been, but all in all I was satisfied.


I'm sure we've had this discussion 100x. The show's ride was much more fun than the way it ended, but over the years, I'm really okay with that. I don't remember a show (with the exception of MAYBE Game of Thrones), where I've been involved in every detail of what happened. It was must watch THAT night, for spoiler and discussion purposes. I miss the level of detail. One of these days, I'm actually going to go back and rewatch. I tried one time and got through the first half of the first season, but life and other TV stuff got in the way. Maybe if I rewatch, I'll enjoy the last season better, if I pick up more clues where they were going.

It's also a shame that Lindlehoff and Cuse have not been able to have a show that is even remotely as good. I know a lot of you like The Leftovers, but not me (and I tried for 1 1/2 seasons). Abrams has had more success in movies these days, but I guess Fringe was good too.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Some time back I did a complete binge re-watch and was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. Knowing the story (and even the ending) made it even better for me. It always seemed like so much was left unexplained, but when you have the big picture, you can actually fill in a lot of the pieces yourself in a way I never did on the first watch. I enjoyed the whole thing (and even the ending) much more than I did the first time, and much more than I thought I would.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I miss this level of involvement. Sure, Lost was special, but these days it's pretty rare for an episode thread to get past a couple of pages, and many never get past the first. And of course a lot of shows don't even get episode threads, and some don't even get season threads!


Tivo based time shifting didn't kill watching shows live. But on-demand watching did. People wait and binge watch, so there's not as much immediate discussion.

Plus, people discuss using social media.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

wprager said:


> Remember the speculation that the Smoke Monster was a cloud of nanoparticles? Good times!


and now I've come to learn it was made of Bosch.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> It's also a shame that Lindlehoff and Cuse have not been able to have a show that is even remotely as good. I know a lot of you like The Leftovers, but not me (and I tried for 1 1/2 seasons). Abrams has had more success in movies these days, but I guess Fringe was good too.


Cuses' _Colony_ and _The Strain_ are pretty good. I never watched _The Returned_. Ed Kitsis and Adam Horowitz have _Once Upon A Time. _ And Andrew Goddard is EP for _Daredevil. _But, it is nearly impossible to live up to the phenomenon that was _Lost_.

_Lost _couldn't even live up to it for most people and me and I was OK with most of the last season. It just wasn't as good as the others and I suspect it was because their original timeline was crunched.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

teknikel said:


> Cuses' _Colony_ and _The Strain_ are pretty good. I never watched _The Returned_. Ed Kitsis and Adam Horowitz have _Once Upon A Time. _ And Andrew Goddard is EP for _Daredevil. _But, it is nearly impossible to live up to the phenomenon that was _Lost_.
> 
> _Lost _couldn't even live up to it for most people and me and I was OK with most of the last season. It just wasn't as good as the others and I suspect it was because their original timeline was crunched.


I've watched Colony and it's not bad. But the layers that were in Lost are not there. The other shows, I've just not been into, at least not close to the extent that Lost got me hooked.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

My wife and I just recently finished re-watching the entire show. This was the first time either of us had seen any of the episodes since they first aired. We both still loved it, but we did find ourselves getting a bit bored during the final season. We flew through the first five seasons, but it took us several weeks to get through the last one. Regardless, I still think it's one of the best shows in the history of television.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

teknikel said:


> _Lost _couldn't even live up to it for most people and me and I was OK with most of the last season. It just wasn't as good as the others and I suspect it was because their original timeline was crunched.


Except it wasn't...that endpoint was picked literally years in advance.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except it wasn't...that endpoint was picked literally years in advance.


I thought it was to be seven seasons originally. My brain has been compromised, so there's that.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

teknikel said:


> I thought it was to be seven seasons originally. My brain has been compromised, so there's that.


IIRC, they actually expanded it from five by splitting the last two seasons into three shorter ones. So same number of episodes, but spread out over a longer period.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Oh LOST! I miss you!! 

I came to the thread upset and thinking that I had missed out on some new super special LOST offshoot tv show (like what they did with "fear of walking dead").


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I'd love to see a "Lost 10 years later" type special which shows what our characters are doing now (and yeah, I get a lot of them are "dead".)


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I thought they're all dead.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I thought they're all dead.


We probably shouldn't be discussing the finale in an episode thread, but



Spoiler



the finale only shows what happens after all the characters eventually died. They could have all led full lives and lived to 80 or 90 before dying (I'm obviously talking about the ones we didn't see die on the show), and I think what Steve is suggesting is that he'd like to see where some of the characters are ten years after they finally got off the Island for good.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> We probably shouldn't be discussing the finale in an episode thread, but
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Yes! And, we also know that some, like Hurley and Ben wind up on the island, so it would be interesting to see what happens on the island with those two as caretakers (and that would probably be a very interesting series).


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Ze plane, Ben, Ze plane!


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## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> and now I've come to learn it was made of Bosch.


http://instantrimshot.com/


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Sorry for the 4 year bump but this seemed more appropriate than a new thread anywhere else....

The guys from "The Hatch: A Lost Podcast" recently released an episode about The Constant and had a fantastic interview with both Sonya Walger and Henry Ian Cusick. It really was great and goes into some awesome detail about how they prepared for the ep, how it was filmed, their outlook on the storyline in general....etc.

The Hatch: A Lost Podcast: Season 4: The Constant


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

We just saw this episode less than a week ago in our re-watch. Great episode.

Edit: just listened to the interview. Thanks for posting, that was fun.


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