# Heroes "Powerless" OAD:12-3-2007



## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

I knew Nathan was a goner....


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## Flyinace2000 (Aug 2, 2005)

I got a general question. Returns in 2008? When?!?!?!

So when you are given the blood of a healer it heals you then is gone? It won't give you that power forever?

And what did she mean by pandora's box? 

Amd why didn't hero actually KILL Kensi?


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Big hype, then a fizzle. Just like last year 

Can't believe they wasted screen time during the final hour with that STUPID story with Micah and his cousin or whatever.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Flyinace2000 said:


> I got a general question. Returns in 2008? When?!?!?!
> 
> Amd why didn't hero actually KILL Kensi?


Return date isn't sure yet; depends on the writer's strike.

And Hiro didn't kill him because good guys don't kill


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

bdowell said:


> I knew Nathan was a goner....


Presuming Peter doesn't give him an impromptu transfusion.

I vote HRG as the triggerman though.

And they didn't show us a body in the warehouse either.

So, what happens to Caitlin now that she's stuck in a future that doesn't happen?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cwoody222 said:


> And Hiro didn't kill him because good guys don't kill


Well, I'd say Hiro didn't kill him because he wasn't feeling that kind and generous...


cwoody222 said:


> Can't believe they wasted screen time during the final hour with that STUPID story with Micah and his cousin or whatever.


I'm still guessing that storyline is supposed to pay off in the second half (whether that ends up being the second half or next season now). And I bet that if they had known the season was going to be up in the air like this, they would have put it off until later (although then everybody would be *****ing about introducing new characters).


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## Flyinace2000 (Aug 2, 2005)

Shakhari said:


> Presuming Peter doesn't give him an impromptu transfusion.
> 
> I vote HRG as the triggerman though.
> 
> ...


I think the trigger man might of been Noah.

As for Caitlin, Hero will have to grab Uhura and Sulu, slingshot around the sun to get her back and bring back a whale.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Flyinace2000 said:


> I think the trigger man might of been Noah.
> 
> As for Caitlin, Hero will have to grab Uhura and Sulu, slingshot around the sun to get her back and bring back a whale.


Don't forget the whales


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

I thoroughly enjoyed the episode! And, actually thought it might be over at the moment when Kensai drops the virus. I think TV has me trained. 

And, I did pause for a minute at the thought that both Maya and Alejandro would be dead... not sure where her story goes, but I guess they have a plan.


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## naiLS1 (Aug 19, 2005)

"Thar be whales Cap'n!!"


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

How do you assisnate someone in a police station and just walk out? The cops were stopping all of the people other than the shooter?


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## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> How do you assisnate someone in a police station and just walk out? The cops were stopping all of the people other than the shooter?


Seriously. Just another stupid oversight in a season full of them.


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## Flyinace2000 (Aug 2, 2005)

YEAH! What gives. They must win "worse police ever" each year.


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## Flyinace2000 (Aug 2, 2005)

The shooter could have a power to let him/her just walk out.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> How do you assisnate someone in a police station and just walk out? The cops were stopping all of the people other than the shooter?





Odds Bodkins said:


> Seriously. Just another stupid oversight in a season full of them.


They had CTU set up a hard perimeter?!?


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

I do find it a bit annoying that this is the second time Peter is the main savior while everybody else are just minor cogs in the machine.

Overall, though, enjoyed this finale. Much better than 'Volume 1'. Continual action, lots of powers, the works. Had a ball watching it right up until the epilogue for Volume 3. The big cliffhanger is Sylar has his power back? Snore. Zzzzz.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> ...
> I vote HRG as the triggerman though....


I agree.

And, MSNBC got a great product placement.

So Sylar is the new Popeye!


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## Flyinace2000 (Aug 2, 2005)

bdowell said:


> They had CTU set up a hard perimeter?!?


That must be it. After last season CTU was shut down by the government, but the group stayed on to do private security. The police station in middle of no where texas was the only people that would hire them. So of course there was a mole, the station gets infiltrated, someone dies, and the bad guys get away. Sounds like CTU's calling card.


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## Flyinace2000 (Aug 2, 2005)

JimSpence said:


> I agree.
> 
> And, MSNBC got a great product placement.
> 
> So Sylar is the new Popeye!


and i have a sudden affection towards Cisco


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I'm glad they shot him before he delivered the end of what would have been a horrible, horrible speech.

"I have the ability to fly!"

<click, snap, click>

"No, really, let me show you. Let's all go outside where I can have a little more room."

That was the worst plan ever.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm still guessing that storyline is supposed to pay off in the second half (whether that ends up being the second half or next season now). And I bet that if they had known the season was going to be up in the air like this, they would have put it off until later (although then everybody would be *****ing about introducing new characters).


No question they kind of got hosed by the strike, but then they did put themselves in a position to get hosed. This was going to be the end of volume 2, strike or no strike. So we spent easily 1/3 of the screen time of this arc on characters who are either dead or otherwise didn't pay off in any way in this particular story. And that's not to mention screen time on complete fluff, like Hiro's endless detour to Japan or Claire's high school misadventures.

There were some good moments down the stretch in this block of episodes, but this ep regressed to the mean. That's unfortunate since they knew in advance it was likely to be a season-ender and retooled it as such. This is the best they could do?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

So this Japanese guy wielding a Samurai sword all of a sudden appears in the middle of a warehouse, and, apart from one guy who turns his head, nobody cares?


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

wprager said:


> So this Japanese guy wielding a Samurai sword all of a sudden appears in the middle of a warehouse, and, apart from one guy who turns his head, nobody cares?


Time was frozen.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So did Adam Monroe know that Kaito was Hiro's father?

When did he know it? 

From the moment he met Kaito? If so, why didn't he say something? When he saw Hiro appear again? 

This aspect is really full of holes.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Okay, so I don't get it.

Peter has the abillity to walk through walls. He knows this. Adam knew this...that's how they broke out of the prison.

So, ummm...why not use that ability to get through that safe door?

Other than that, great episode. I got excited about the name of Vol. 3. Then I kinda realized that it's just going to be a rehash of Vol. 1. I hope they do more with it than just have Sylar be the big bad.


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## Flyinace2000 (Aug 2, 2005)

Its not like we don't watch this show with a healthy does of suspended reality.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

While I am sure I will get bashed for saying it, I enjoyed it. You guys think too hard.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

On a side note...I think I'm gonna start watching my Heroes Season 1 DVD again.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> While I am sure I will get bashed for saying it, I enjoyed it. You guys think too hard.


I enjoyed most of this episode, but there were a few things that were disappointing to me (like giving Sylar back his power.... they really didn't need to go back to him as the bad guy).

The Nikki and Micah stuff wasn't all that important either, but then again it seemed like they really want to clear up most of the hanging issues and cut things cleanly as they enter the break here.

Otherwise I was happy with things as they stand. We lost a few heroes (though they may not be permanently gone as we've learned in this show in the past multiple times), which might help make things tighter in the future, but we wrapped up things fairly smoothly here and set up for the next volume at the same time.


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## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

unicorngoddess said:


> Okay, so I don't get it.
> 
> Peter has the abillity to walk through walls. He knows this. Adam knew this...that's how they broke out of the prison.
> 
> So, ummm...why not use that ability to get through that safe door?


How would he open the vault from the inside?


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## KnightShade (Feb 16, 2000)

Odds Bodkins said:


> How would he open the vault from the inside?


Why would he need to? He can just as easily take Adam with him when he phases through the wall.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Odds Bodkins said:


> How would he open the vault from the inside?


Why would he need to open the vault???

Yes I understand this is how the storyline was written for the a more dramatic build up.

But he obviously knew how he was going to destroy this vial. All he had to do was walk in, destroy it and walk out.


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## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

KnightShade said:


> Why would he need to? He can just as easily take Adam with him when he phases through the wall.


Bah! You're right... I forgot that's how they jumped ship earlier.


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## Dashel (Oct 2, 2002)

Odds Bodkins said:


> How would he open the vault from the inside?


He wouldn't have to. He would take Adam inside with him, get the virus and then they would come back out.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> No question they kind of got hosed by the strike, but then they did put themselves in a position to get hosed. This was going to be the end of volume 2, strike or no strike. So we spent easily 1/3 of the screen time of this arc on characters who are either dead or otherwise didn't pay off in any way in this particular story.


Except without the writer's strike, the season would have continued. It wasn't two mini-seasons, it was one season with two stories.

The retooling was apparently designed to minimize the disruption, but they had already written and filmed the 10.75 episodes before. It's a shame we'll never see the season as it was meant to be seen, as a whole; I am convinced that some (but by no means all) of the flaws we've seen would disappear in that context.

(I am also convinced that a lot of people have been seriously exaggerating the flaws, but that's just a matter of taste. Of course, my taste is right and yours is wrong! )


unicorngoddess said:


> Other than that, great episode. I got excited about the name of Vol. 3. Then I kinda realized that it's just going to be a rehash of Vol. 1. I hope they do more with it than just have Sylar be the big bad.


Well, consider that


Spoiler



the original plan for the season included a very lengthy absence for Sylar while he was off being Spock.


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## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

bdowell said:


> Time was frozen.


Yeah, but he still appeared, with a sword, once he was knocked out.

How about the thug that was content on murdering a girl just because she broke into his house? C'mon.


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## Marc (Jun 26, 1999)

unicorngoddess said:


> Peter has the abillity to walk through walls. He knows this. Adam knew this...that's how they broke out of the prison.


I forget the various timelines (thanks to a somewhat confusing season)... Wasn't Peter's prison-time before his memory was wiped by the Haitian (back in the "Four Months Ago..." episode)?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Marc said:


> I forget the various timelines (thanks to a somewhat confusing season)... Wasn't Peter's prison-time before his memory was wiped by the Haitian (back in the "Four Months Ago..." episode)?


Peter has his memory back now. Adam coached him through using the regenerative powers to get it back.

Peter kills me when he is staring Adam right in the face wondering if he should trust him. Read his mind already! He can pull the door off of the vault with his mind but he can't manage to read Adam's thoughts for just a second to figure out if he can trust him or not?


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Hiro probably didn't kill Adam this time because he didn't know how to. Last time, he was completely blown up but survived. The buried alive angle is much worse than just killing him.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Yep. Buried alive and unable to die. Awful.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

oy.....


Not as good of a season finale as the last one. I too wonder what happens/happened to the Irish chick (Caitlin). Totally lame to have the plot of what's her name in the warehouse so Nikki could save her (and then die).
For a moment, I was really glad that Sylar shot Maya. But then they brought her back. Lame. What does she have to do with the virus? Nothing. Lame, lame, lame.
Oh, and STILL am not liking having Sylar here. HE should have been dead dead after Season 1.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

This episode is so frustrating for me. And it's their own fault. If they're going to give people lots of power (like Peter) then they have to work at least a LITTLE bit. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here and there but this episode was completely off the charts in terms of utterly unexplainable and inane plot points.


Sylar puts down his gun to get blood drawn, but Mohinder doesn't even blink. The guy's going to kill you AND Molly as soon as you give him what he wants (which, by the way, means he gets his powers back and kills who knows how many people) and you don't even try for it. Lame.
Peter and Hiro are standing there with LITERALLY all the time in the world, and they don't even try to talk about what's going on. Heck, Hiro could take Peter back in time and SHOW him Adam is a bad guy.
Nathan convinces Peter that he should be worried about Adam, so what does he do, with every second meaning a possible world-annihilating virus could be released? He _runs_ down the hallway. Hellooo? Just stop time and wander down and get it!
As someone else pointed out, why bother grabbing the doors off the hinges? Just walk through! He doesn't have to open the door to get in OR out. Heck, he can take Adam with him anyway, just like he got Adam out of prison.
And even so, why send _Adam_ in there to destroy the virus?!?! His power is healing: what's he going to do? Obviously Peter should go in and destroy it, just like he did in the end.
Hiro's monologuing with Adam. Silly. Just stop time, take the virus, and problem solved.
 Nathan is shot. Why doesn't Peter stop time and find out who did it? Or at least fly Nathan to a hospital (hey, you want to reveal yourself? There's a good way!)? Or stop time and find out who did it AND fly Nathan to a hospital.
 What's up with Hiro teleporting around Peter when time is stopped?!?! I mean, hello, time is stopped already! What, he's stopping it again somehow? There's a "meta-time"? *boggle*

I could go on but I'm tired. The Pats played terribly tonight and still I can't believe I took time out of that game to watch this show


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

Peter is just plain stupid. He is like Barney Rubble with superpowers.


He could have walked through the wall, got the virus, destroyed it and that would have been it.

Why didn't he go back in time to stop Nathan from getting shot?

He seems unable to use his powers when they are actually useful.

He also didn't bat an eye when they killed all those people on the way to the vault.
Didn't anyone notice Hiro on the floor with a sword??? Time was not stopped then.

It feels like they decided where the story will end and built trigger plot points around getting to it, without really thinking about it.

I'm disappointed by this season.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> Big hype, then a fizzle. Just like last year
> 
> Can't believe they wasted screen time during the final hour with that STUPID story with Micah and his cousin or whatever.


They had to waste the time on that story to explain how Niki got killed. At least we're now rid of one "hero" who didn't want to use her powers and we gained a couple of new kid heroes who are not afraid to go out there and use their powers.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Hope you're happy Micah. You just HAD to have that medal didn't you. 

Man...I hate to pile on, but what a dissapointment. You can tell a show is bad when even Kristen Bell delivers her lines bad. "My dad's gonna kill me!"


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

NJChris said:


> Peter is just plain stupid. He is like Barney Rubble with superpowers.


Hah! Exactly :up:

Plus Mohinder has the moral courage of a flatworm. Noah has spent two entire seasons with essentially one thought in his head... yo HRG! We're bored! Believe it or not the most interesting character is Elle! At least she has some legitimate character development issues and they seemed to have given a couple of minutes' thought to her power, how it manifests, and its strengths and weaknesses.

I basically don't like ANY character in this show this season. They all seem one-dimensional and uninteresting, and/or completely superfluous.

Oh one other glaring error I noticed: so Micah leaves in the middle of the night to go to a neighbor's house to get his backback. They're there for about 10 minutes before WhatsHerName gets caught. Micah goes back to the house... and arrives in full daylight!


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

madscientist said:


> Oh one other glaring error I noticed: so Micah leaves in the middle of the night to go to a neighbor's house to get his backback. They're there for about 10 minutes before WhatsHerName gets caught. Micah goes back to the house... and arrives in full daylight!


Maybe one of the thugs powers is Daylight Savings Time.


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## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

Was it just me, or was the director (or cinematographer) going overboard with Robert Wise-like depth of field photography? Too many shots had the back of someone's head out of focus, part of someone else's face in focus - and the other 85% of the screen out of focus.

Almost as though they were trying to shoot digital and digitally add depth of field in for a more film like reaction.

I think the assassin was Claude (Eccleston).


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

madscientist said:


> What's up with Hiro teleporting around Peter when time is stopped?!?! I mean, hello, time is stopped already! What, he's stopping it again somehow? There's a "meta-time"? *boggle*


That would be the space part of Hiro's "bending time and space" power. I don't see why it matters if time is stopped or not.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

sonnik said:


> Was it just me, or was the director (or cinematographer) going overboard with Robert Wise-like depth of field photography? Too many shots had the back of someone's head out of focus, part of someone else's face in focus - and the other 85% of the screen out of focus.
> 
> Almost as though they were trying to shoot digital and digitally add depth of field in for a more film like reaction.


It wasn't just you. That was bugging me throughout the whole episode. Very distracting.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

hapdrastic said:


> That would be the space part of Hiro's "bending time and space" power. I don't see why it matters if time is stopped or not.


I dunno, it just bugged me. For example, Hiro disappears for a while and Peter is looking for him. Where did he go? He couldn't go "into the future", since time was stopped... how can you do that? Did he jump out of the building for a bit, then jump back in right behind Peter? I dunno, this whole teleport thing seems like a whole different power than time control, the way they portray it. Whatever. I'm over it!


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

madscientist said:


> This episode is so frustrating for me. And it's their own fault. If they're going to give people lots of power (like Peter) then they have to work at least a LITTLE bit. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here and there but this episode was completely off the charts in terms of utterly unexplainable and inane plot points.
> 
> 
> Sylar puts down his gun to get blood drawn, but Mohinder doesn't even blink. The guy's going to kill you AND Molly as soon as you give him what he wants (which, by the way, means he gets his powers back and kills who knows how many people) and you don't even try for it. Lame.
> ...


Yeah, what he said ...

And the award for "Worst Mother of the Year" goes to ... Angela Petrelli. Sorry, Britney.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

stalemate said:


> Yep. Buried alive and unable to die. Awful.


Actually, Adam is not immortal, he simply regenerates. However there's no regenerative powers that will stop you from asphyxiating, dying of thirst, dying of hunger. He can regenerate his own tissue, but not manufacture oxygen or water. If it was just hunger then, I suppose, he could chew on his own fore-arm for a while. It would hurt and be kind of gross, but he could survive. But he would still die of asphyxiation.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Does a person who can heal need to eat and drink?
Does he need air?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Does a person who can heal need to eat and drink?
> Does he need air?


Exactly. Why doesn't he just simply regenerate, as it happens, the damage that a normal person would get from suffocation?

I don't see why people claim to know all these rules for what he can and can't regenerate when it was clearly stated in the show that the only way to kill him is through the brain. Mother Petrelli didn't say "a bullet through the brain, starvation, or asphyxiation, those are the only ways."


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

madscientist said:


> Oh one other glaring error I noticed: so Micah leaves in the middle of the night to go to a neighbor's house to get his backback. They're there for about 10 minutes before WhatsHerName gets caught. Micah goes back to the house... and arrives in full daylight!


I took it that it took him that long to get back home. There is no telling how far away they were and he was on foot. When he got home, his mom said she had been worried sick about him. I had assumed she had woken up to find him gone and by the time he got back home it was light outside.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

stalemate said:


> Exactly. Why doesn't he just simply regenerate, as it happens, the damage that a normal person would get from suffocation?
> 
> I don't see why people claim to know all these rules for what he can and can't regenerate when it was clearly stated in the show that the only way to kill him is through the brain. Mother Petrelli didn't say "a bullet through the brain, starvation, or asphyxiation, those are the only ways."


That's my point. Hiro didn't kill him, but buried him alive _forever_.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So did a new and unknown character shot Nathan, or did an old and existing character.

If the latter, there is only one possibility, which is Mr. Bennett.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> That's my point. Hiro didn't kill him, but buried him alive _forever_.


Yes, I'm with you on this. I think Hiro did to Adam probably the worst thing that could be done to him.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

stalemate said:


> Exactly. Why doesn't he just simply regenerate, as it happens, the damage that a normal person would get from suffocation?
> 
> I don't see why people claim to know all these rules for what he can and can't regenerate when it was clearly stated in the show that the only way to kill him is through the brain. Mother Petrelli didn't say "a bullet through the brain, starvation, or asphyxiation, those are the only ways."


Well, I think Mom meant, how to kill him QUICKLY!

What are you going to do in a tight situation when you have to stop him from releasing a virus onto the world... QUICKLY cause him to starve?! Or perhaps walk up and throw a bag over his head?

There's never been anything stated with Claire or Adam that they can do anything more than regenerate.

It's stupid. Bad writing.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

I think some people here are taking the show way too seriously. It's a TV Show. Every TV show on the planet has a number of these same kind of inconsistencies. The biggest offender I can think of off the top of my head is ST:TNG. Aside from Micah's sojourn in New Orleans, this was a good episode. I'd like to see them move that forward tremendously but I'm afraid were going to get half a season of Micah and his cousin blaming themselves for what's-her-name's death. 

All that said:
Why on earth is the penalty for breaking into someone's house to retrieve stolen property the blowing up of an entire building?


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

For all those people complaining that Peter should have done this or Peter could have done that think of it this way.

Here is a guy with almost limitless powers. Had he used them the entire plot would have been (even more) anticlimactic and you would have complained. This is the problem with having omnipotent characters. At least superman has his kryptonite...


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

sonnik said:


> I think the assassin was Claude (Eccleston).


Except that we SAW the assassin....


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Magister said:


> Except that we SAW the assassin....


Maybe we were invisible too.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Magister said:


> Except that we SAW the assassin....


And from the way it looked, the assassin had a very trim build. And Claude's not exactly a slender guy.

Enh. For me, the 'finale' brought a weird kind of closure. It ended Volume Two, which just didn't cut it for me. There were almost no story arcs throughout the entire 'season' that engaged me, very few of the new characters appealed to me, and a lot of the old ones were so out of character that this just felt like a bad spinoff at times. It was like closing a book and thinking to myself, "Thank goodness that's over with."

When Maya died, I cheered. I thought to myself, "Thank god! We never have to see her again except for an occasional flashback!". Of course, Mohinder had to go and spoil that for me.

I'm just kinda meh about the finale, which pretty much sums up my feelings of this entire Volume overall. And the cliffhanger ending didn't hit me in the same way that Season One's did, because at this point, I find myself questioning whether or not we'll get answers in 2008.

I will say, though... Elle is really starting to grow on me. Now that she's seeing her father for the villain he truly is, I really hope that things get a lot more interesting with her.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> There's never been anything stated with Claire or Adam that they can do anything more than regenerate.


And I contend that regeneration should be enough to keep you alive in a coffin that is buried.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Skittles said:


> And from the way it looked, the assassin had a very trim build. And Claude's not exactly a slender guy.


Neither is HRG.

It looked like Sylar, but then we saw him elsewhere in the next scene. It must be somebody we know, however, or they wouldn't have been so careful to avoid showing his face.

By the way, although I continue to like this season a hell of a lot more than many of you, I agree with most of the logic complaints surrounding the assault on Primatech. And I think they were too pervasive to all be the result of the last-minute re-write. I thought at the end of last season that Peter was just too powerful to be an interesting or useful character...at first this season, it looked like they were de-powering him, but now that he's back to full force, he has become a serious storytelling liability again.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I think Peter has too much power. If he ever learns Micah's ability he'll be like every comic book hero and villain rolled up into one.

I still can't get over the fact that Maya accompanied Syler as he broke into Mohinder's house and then started cooking like Rachel Ray. Since when is that appropriate behavior during a break-in and hostage situation.

How did Hiro locate an empty, buried coffin? Did Hiro also have to fit in there in order to deposit Adam?

Did Ali Larter get another job or something? Seemed like a cold blooded way to get rid of her character.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I still can't get over the fact that Maya accompanied Syler as he broke into Mohinder's house and then started cooking like Rachel Ray. Since when is that appropriate behavior during a break-in and hostage situation.


 She had no idea that Sylar didn't know Mohinder. Sylar had managed to convince her that he was friends with Mohinder, and she had no way of knowing it was a break in situation until Sylar pulled the gun on Mohinder.



> How did Hiro locate an empty, buried coffin? Did Hiro also have to fit in there in order to deposit Adam?


The coffin was in the Nakamura family plot, so a good assumption would be that Hiro had it placed there as a contingency. He'd just teleport himself and Adam into the coffin, then teleport out.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Skittles said:


> She had no idea that Sylar didn't know Mohinder. Sylar had managed to convince her that he was friends with Mohinder, and she had no way of knowing it was a break in situation until Sylar pulled the gun on Mohinder.


Didn't Sylar and Mohinder hang out for a few episodes last season? They know each other quite well.


----------



## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> Didn't Sylar and Mohinder hang out for a few episodes last season? They know each other quite well.


How does Maya know that?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Skittles said:


> She had no idea that Sylar didn't know Mohinder. Sylar had managed to convince her that he was friends with Mohinder, and she had no way of knowing it was a break in situation until Sylar pulled the gun on Mohinder.


Well, how'd they get in the house? Is Molly dumb enough to let strangers into the house? Wouldn't she tell them to come back later? Does she know Sylar from last season? I don't remember.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Well, how'd they get in the house? Is Molly dumb enough to let strangers into the house? Wouldn't she tell them to come back later? Does she know Sylar from last season? I don't remember.


Molly would know Sylar, since she 'saw' him with her ability at the end of last season.

Someone would have to have been watching her. And Sylar did mention in his phone call to Mohinder in last week's episode that he sent the babysitter home. It's entirely possible he persuaded the babysitter to let him in, then told her to go home.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

Skittles said:


> She had no idea that Sylar didn't know Mohinder. Sylar had managed to convince her that he was friends with Mohinder, and she had no way of knowing it was a break in situation until Sylar pulled the gun on Mohinder.


 Yeah, she just thought that breaking in the apartment was normal in NYC. Or did Mohlinder give him a key for their late night rendevous?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Skittles said:


> How does Maya know that?


He told her. Sylar's trick to get Maya and Alejandro to come with him was that Mohindhar and Sylar were friends.

We know as viewers that this is not true but Maya doesn't know this. You said they didn't know each other at all. Which by virtue of them hanging out for a few episodes is also not true.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

stalemate said:


> Exactly. Why doesn't he just simply regenerate, as it happens, the damage that a normal person would get from suffocation?
> 
> I don't see why people claim to know all these rules for what he can and can't regenerate when it was clearly stated in the show that the only way to kill him is through the brain. Mother Petrelli didn't say "a bullet through the brain, starvation, or asphyxiation, those are the only ways."


You can't regenerate something if it continued to die. At best he can be in a constant state of flux -- cells dying from lack of oxygen, then regenerated because of his abilities. But he still needs the building blocks, if you will, of oxygen, water, fuel. You cannot generate energy, you can only change matter to energy and back. He is in a closed system where his body is using up resources (oxygen, water, food) with no ability to recreate those resources. Regeneration is simply replacing dead cells/organs with new ones, but without the resources to rebuild them, he's stuck. Sure, he will last longer than the average Joe, but forever? I'm not buying it.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Sirius Black said:


> I think some people here are taking the show way too seriously. It's a TV Show. Every TV show on the planet has a number of these same kind of inconsistencies. The biggest offender I can think of off the top of my head is ST:TNG. Aside from Micah's sojourn in New Orleans, this was a good episode. I'd like to see them move that forward tremendously but I'm afraid were going to get half a season of Micah and his cousin blaming themselves for what's-her-name's death.
> 
> All that said:
> Why on earth is the penalty for breaking into someone's house to retrieve stolen property the blowing up of an entire building?


Well, he was probably burning it down for either an insurance claim or he's in the protection racket. Either way, to leave a body there is just plain stupid. You don't want *anything* that can even remotely be traced back to you.

But, then again, that "character" (and I'm using the term very loosely) was not shown to be the brightest star in the constellation.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I was thinking yesterday that the BSG episode was just ok, but still had a lot of enjoyable moments and I was glad it was shown. Then I watched this and realized how much further heroes has fallen than BSG. This whole arc was riddled with plot holes, and the characters have become increasingly stupid to the point that I really think the writers have no idea how to write a show about heroes in control of their superpowers. They did a great job writing about heroes who barely could control their powers. But we're well past that and now we have them having to behave really unintelligently because the writers are too cowardly to go where the storylines ought to go.

The last 20 minutes of this episode was some of the weakest writing I've seen on TV this season, and I say that as someone who still watches bionic woman! The little ending with nathan could only have happened if he made a speech so ambiguous and vaporous that it meant nothing until his reveal, which was painfully long in the coming. How about next time you start floating immediately and talk about actual powers instead of "people have a secret and I'm going to tell it now! It's a big secret. Somewhere around the size of jupiter, but not as big as the milky way. If I had to say what color the secret is, it would be mauve. I've had the secret for 2 years 16 months 23 days 8 hours and 7 minutes. I think I first learned it shortly after getting a haircut at the barber shop on 18th street near the bank."

Is there really any point to sylar anymore? His very existence just makes the show weaker and weaker. Apparently we are just going to have a little rerun of season 1 now. 

What was with peter blowing up the virus about 2 feet from his brother and then letting the virus dust blow away into the air around them? Sure, we can assume the virus would be destroyed in the real world, but not in the world of heroes where the dust blows away in the godsend pattern and is uber dangerous.

The saddest of all is that I cared more about the micah plot in this episode than any of the others.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NJChris said:


> Yeah, she just thought that breaking in the apartment was normal in NYC. Or did Mohlinder give him a key for their late night rendevous?


Sylar mentioned a babysitter. Presumably, he talked his way in, got her out of sight, and "gave her the night off."


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> We know as viewers that this is not true but Maya doesn't know this. You said they didn't know each other at all.


I mistyped. I should have probably elaborated that Sylar didn't know Mohinder in the manner he claimed to.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> I think Peter has too much power. If he ever learns Micah's ability he'll be like every comic book hero and villain rolled up into one.
> 
> I still can't get over the fact that Maya accompanied Syler as he broke into Mohinder's house and then started cooking like Rachel Ray. Since when is that appropriate behavior during a break-in and hostage situation.
> 
> ...


They didn't break in. Sylar said that he convinced the babysitter to leave. And I don't think he used the gun to convince her, or she would have called the cops.

Hiro could have just teleported right into the coffin. Would have had to be a pretty big one, since Hiro is not really slender. Of course, he could have teleported beside the coffin, but since he doesn't have DL's ability that would be a sticky situation, to say the least. So he must have teleported inside (as tight a squeeze as it would be, then teleported out.

I can't take Nikki's death for granted, until I see Ali Larter's name attached to another project.


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

Molly _most definitely_ knew Sylar - he slaughtered her parents (we see the crime scene in the second episode of season one, the episode that introduces Matt Parkman) and (as mentioned) the finale of season one had Molly finding 'The Bad Man' (Sylar, from memory) only to realize he was nearby. Not to mention that (pretty much) all the surviving Heroes from Season 1 were in Kirby Plaza.

Personally, I think you guys fail to 'appreciate' (OK, maybe not the best choice of words) the fact that Heroes is (classic) comic-book storytelling and logic. Basically, the plots, characters and situations will always be somewhat cornball. Factoring this into my expectations, I think Heroes is quite enjoyable (it's corniness is almost endearing to me).

I actually thought this Volume was superior to Volume One (which totally trailed off in the end for me). Though yes, I didn't like the way this Volume started (4 months in the future? wack!)


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

What an lame ending...:down:

When Silar shot Maya, I was SO happy. Then they had to bring her back. What a waste of good blood...

Instead they sacrifice Nikki and Nathan. Ugh...

Cheryl


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I'm surprised that I'm the first to suggest this, but perhaps the shooter was West, intentionally dressed to resemble Noah. Remember, his reaction to Claire's plan to tell all was not exactly positive. And his conversation with her before he flew off did leave me wondering whether The Company had gotten to me in the interim.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Neither is HRG.
> 
> It looked like Sylar, but then we saw him elsewhere in the next scene. It must be somebody we know, however, or they wouldn't have been so careful to avoid showing his face.
> 
> By the way, although I continue to like this season a hell of a lot more than many of you, I agree with most of the logic complaints surrounding the assault on Primatech. And I think they were too pervasive to all be the result of the last-minute re-write. I thought at the end of last season that Peter was just too powerful to be an interesting or useful character...at first this season, it looked like they were de-powering him, but now that he's back to full force, he has become a serious storytelling liability again.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

stalemate said:


> Yep. Buried alive and unable to die. Awful.


I wonder if that was an intentional homage to the Alias finale? That was the very first thing that I thought of.


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

David Platt said:


> I wonder if that was an intentional homage to the Alias finale? That was the very first thing that I thought of.


Damn, I was about to smeek that same thought when I saw your post. Yes, Arvin Sloan and Adam Monroe both met the same fate. And in both cases they are immortal and eternity is a very long time. So long that the earth will change quite a bit, and neither will ever really be buried for all eternity. They'll be back, and maybe they'll team up this time!


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

AJRitz said:


> I'm surprised that I'm the first to suggest this, but perhaps the shooter was West, intentionally dressed to resemble Noah. Remember, his reaction to Claire's plan to tell all was not exactly positive. And his conversation with her before he flew off did leave me wondering whether The Company had gotten to me in the interim.


In one scene Bob says he will have to do something to get Claire to keep quiet and in the next scene West shows up at her house telling her he is there to stop her from leaving. At that point I was convinced that West was working for Bob, so I would not be surprised if he was the one that shot Nathan.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

speedcouch said:


> Instead they sacrifice Nikki and Nathan. Ugh...


Does anyone actually think Niki and Nathan are going to be dead when the show comes back?


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

I guess Mohinder must be the Barney Ruble of scientist since he bothers to find out the exact strain of virus Sylar has and happens to have the cure with him. How bout this &#8220;Sylar lets not do any of this pesky testing. I have the cure you need right here. Don&#8217;t worry that the label on the bottle says Draino, now just roll up your sleeve&#8230;&#8221;


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

getbak said:


> Does anyone actually think Niki and Nathan are going to be dead when the show comes back?


Anything is possible now that they have Claire and Peter whose blood can cure anything. However, Nikki was inside the building when a large explosion destroyed it. I don't think she's walking away from that one.

Just curious...

Nikki, Jessica, et al are personalities that were manifesting themselves prior to the 'event' that made all the heroes become aware of their powers, right? Her power is the super strength power. Can any of the personalities use the power?


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## Uncle Briggs (Sep 11, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> While I am sure I will get bashed for saying it, I enjoyed it. You guys think too hard.


I am the same way. I don't let the plot holes or other inconsistencies worry me.


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## bubba1972 (Mar 28, 2005)

So did Nikki have her super strength when she beat up the kidnapper? Also, way to spend some bucks on the flying effects this episode. Hey guys, jump off of this box and we will film your feet hitting the ground. There, you flew...


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

I will say, I got a good laugh out of seeing Parkman riding on Nathan's back for half a second, which was immediately followed by Parkman saying 'Let's never talk about that again'.

Even if the overall episode was ho-hum for me, that one line was worth a good laugh.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> How do you assisnate someone in a police station and just walk out? The cops were stopping all of the people other than the shooter?


Matt overdid it. He made sure they would all pay attention to Nathan.

Didja notice no one turned around...they all paid attention to Nathan. The natural tendency is to see where the shots came from.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> So did Adam Monroe know that Kaito was Hiro's father?
> 
> When did he know it?
> 
> ...


You are looking for holes that aren't there. Adam spent YEARS with the group prior to being locked up and then THIRTY YEARS in their custody. He couldn't find out Hiro was Kaito's son? And who said he never said anything?

No hole whatsoever.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NJChris said:


> Peter is just plain stupid. He is like Barney Rubble with superpowers.


Bingo! What a character does and doesn't do is debatable about the character but to assume it is bad writing is a bad assumption. Not everyone does the same thing as everyone else. Peter is not very swift on strategy. That has been proven over and over again.

And he almost has to be. Otherwise, he is unbeatable. Peter has the Superman problem. How do you make it that every story doesn't end in 3 seconds. The guy can heal, he has telekenesis (sp?), he can stop time and time/space travel, he can go nuke, he can throw lightning from his hands, he can walk through walls, he can fly, he can read minds, he can (presumably) eat brains, he can be very persuasive (his mom's ability).....

So he is stupid to make up for it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Skittles said:


> I will say, though... Elle is really starting to grow on me. Now that she's seeing her father for the villain he truly is, I really hope that things get a lot more interesting with her.


She becomes a true hero. The look on her face when they told her she saved them said she had never been thanked before and saw value in being heroic.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> How did Hiro locate an empty, buried coffin? Did Hiro also have to fit in there in order to deposit Adam?


Why does everything need to be 100% spelled out? The guy can BEND TIME! He could have gone off, stored Adam somewhere, gone and bought a coffin, dug the hole himself, put it in the ground, go back and get Adam.

All in what seemed like a second.

Hiro is a bit smarter than Peter.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wprager said:


> You can't regenerate something if it continued to die. At best he can be in a constant state of flux -- cells dying from lack of oxygen, then regenerated because of his abilities. But he still needs the building blocks, if you will, of oxygen, water, fuel. You cannot generate energy, you can only change matter to energy and back. He is in a closed system where his body is using up resources (oxygen, water, food) with no ability to recreate those resources. Regeneration is simply replacing dead cells/organs with new ones, but without the resources to rebuild them, he's stuck. Sure, he will last longer than the average Joe, but forever? I'm not buying it.


But you buy that pumping blood into a guy who has a bullet in his brain brings him back to life?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bubba1972 said:


> So did Nikki have her super strength when she beat up the kidnapper?


No, she used leverage rather than brute strength. Her integrated multiple personalities do know how to fight.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

I'm not sure I like that using Claire's blood will heal people. It opens up an easy out. Oops.. you were chopped into 500 peices, but claire's blood will fix you right up.

What happens if Claire donates blood at a blood drive.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Skittles said:


> And from the way it looked, the assassin had a very trim build. And Claude's not exactly a slender guy.


After thinking about it last night, and coupled with the photograph of "the 12" that they've been showing all season, I've decided it's Papa Petrelli (his face was never shown, etc).


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Hiro is a bit smarter than Peter.


I think Hiro is just as stupid, but maybe in slightly different ways. Of course if you just mean a "bit" as in on a scale of 1 to 10 Peter is a 5, and Hiro is a 5.0000000000001, I can go with that.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> But you buy that pumping blood into a guy who has a bullet in his brain brings him back to life?


And why is a bullet shot into the brain a killer but a stake into the brain isn't? We know it kept Claire from healing while it was there, but after it was removed, she healed. And for that matter Noah was shot in the brain and he could be healed. So Mama Petrelli must be kinda dumb, too, in her own way.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Plot holes don't really bother me, and I can handle inconsistencies, writer goofs and all sorts of nitpicks. I can't handle pointless & boring story arcs.

I just found little point to this entire season (as it stands so far). The story was just all over the place. What real purpose did Maya & her bro (who was so nothing I can't even remember his name anymore) serve? Her power is almost worthless, especially in terms of future plot development. Did they need her/them to get Sylar back to Mohinder? Heck, they coulda done that a hundred different ways. The New Orleans story? Again, for what purpose? It had *nothing* to do with nothing. Without it we wouldn't miss a thing. With it, we don't have any sense of adding or "filling in" a broader story arc. It was just a total waste. Uhura? Screen filler. Or a slight nod to the Sulu character. But no purpose *at all* to this season.

Caitlin in the future? Who knows? The entire "Peter in a box shipped to Ireland, meets a girl, comes back, saves the world" story line? 90% filler & wasted.

Shows like this paint a broad canvas, rich with details, that create a symbiosis of stories, all twisting around each other, playing off each other, and in the process, creating an entire world for us to enjoy. LOST is a master of this; Heroes did an excellent job of this for about 3/4 of its first season. But I feel the finish to last year, and most of this year, have NOT lived up to what they initially gave us.

And I think the reason so many of us are unhappy is not just because we are disappointed with what we are getting now, but knowing what we first had, and showing us what they were capable of doing, and now getting this. A 6 show is a 6 show. A show that was a 9 and is now a 6 is a letdown.

.02


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

To add a few more cents to my .02 above...

One possible reason the show seems off-kilter to many of us may be the change in writing direction about 2/3 of the way thru the first season. (By off-kilter, I mean the way the finale to Season One, and this arc of Season Two are disliked by so many loyal fans.)

Originally, the idea was for Season One to stand alone, and for many (most?) of the characters to not return. It was going to be the concept of Heroes year after year, but not the *same* heroes. I think this would have given the writers an incredibly rich pallete of stories to pick from, and powers that would be both fresh and interesting.

But as the show became a super-hit, they decided it was too valuable a franchise to just write off so many characters. After all, Hiro was a star; how can we kill him? So they changed the entire concept the show was created under, and decided to carry the characters forward each year.

So it seems we end up with story lines where we dance around their super powers, like Peter's amnesia. Or Sylar's amnesia/whatever. Or Hiro's getting tossed around thru time willy-nilly. Because we have developed characters whose powers we know, and hence have to limit them to create story lines about regaining them. Or we have episodes called "Four Months Ago" and "Five Months Ahead" (I'm paraphrasing) just to attempt to tie together this disparate story line. Or pictures of "12" who we never really discover much about.

I say we throw the whole lot out, and start over. It can't be any worse than what we have now.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> "people have a secret and I'm going to tell it now! It's a big secret. Somewhere around the size of jupiter, but not as big as the milky way. If I had to say what color the secret is, it would be mauve. I've had the secret for 2 years 16 months 23 days 8 hours and 7 minutes. I think I first learned it shortly after getting a haircut at the barber shop on 18th street near the bank."


ROFLMAO!! :up: Great speech writing, TAsunder! :up:

I'm also inclined to think the invisible man, Claude, was Nathan's shooter. I doubt Nathan will die, and I think Adam will be exhumed. Nikki might be a goner, but with this show, dead people don't tend to stay dead.

And it is a classic comic book superhero storytelling device to have a superhero motivated by the tragic deaths of his/her parents, so this might motivate Micah.

You can see that the writers are trying to be politically correct by including as many races and age groups as possible in order to appeal to the widest demographic.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

AJRitz said:


> I'm surprised that I'm the first to suggest this, but perhaps the shooter was West, intentionally dressed to resemble Noah. Remember, his reaction to Claire's plan to tell all was not exactly positive. And his conversation with her before he flew off did leave me wondering whether The Company had gotten to me in the interim.


I agree with the ones who thing it's HRG. When he went to the house to talk Claire out of exposing their secrets, he said he made a deal with the company to keep them safe. He had to go back to the company, and they would leave his family alone. And the shooter looked like HRG from the back. So my guess is that the company got wind of what Nathan was going to do and sent HRG to stop it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm fairly certain it's not HRG. Mama Petrelli was on the phone with the killer at the end, and and I don't think they were on very good terms. I think I like the previous guess that it was Papa Petrelli who was the shooter.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm fairly certain it's not HRG. Mama Petrelli was on the phone with the killer at the end, and and I don't think they were on very good terms. I think I like the previous guess that it was Papa Petrelli who was the shooter.


you sure she was on the phone with the actual shooter and not maybe someone else from the company? (i.e. Bob)


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> All that said:
> Why on earth is the penalty for breaking into someone's house to retrieve stolen property the blowing up of an entire building?


You must have missed the line in the previous episode where the people who stole Micah's backpack were talking about how they had been paid by someone to torch vacant buildings. Right after that line was spoken, they found her hiding up in the ceiling. They had to assume that she'd overheard what they said and that she'd be a liability if they let her go. It's not a stretch at all for a criminal to murder someone to avoid being caught.


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## tem (Oct 6, 2003)

bdowell said:


> They had CTU set up a hard perimeter?!?


there's also two people from Alias on the show so they probably had a hand in it as well. Weiss always f'd things like that up


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm fairly certain it's not HRG. Mama Petrelli was on the phone with the killer at the end, and and I don't think they were on very good terms. I think I like the previous guess that it was Papa Petrelli who was the shooter.


Plus, to me it didn't look anything like HRG--the shooter was tall and thin. HRG, not so much.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Some cool info about this episode and next "season" here:

About next season:


Spoiler



"...
There are plenty more baddies coming after the writers' strike concludes. In fact, the title of Volume 3 - "Villains" - says it all.

"We've introduced a cadre of them over the course of the show and we're going to see them rise up," Kring says. "Just as the heroes have found each other to save the world, the villains will do the same with the opposite intent." And their numbers may be legion. "The Company has catalogued many of these people over the years. There may be more of them down in that basement than we have alluded to so far." 
..."

Now to me, this sounds like they're addressing our concerns about making a more exciting next entry into the series. Pitting the heroes against bunches of villians should be really fun. I'm ok with Sylar returning. He is a really fun guy to love to hate.


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## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

jsmeeker said:


> you sure she was on the phone with the actual shooter and not maybe someone else from the company? (i.e. Bob)


That's what I was thinking. She was on the phone with Bob, but he sent HRG to do the actual deed (as the price he was paying for being assured of his family's safety). Bob didn't have Elle as an assassin, so he sent HRG.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Magnolia88 said:


> That's what I was thinking. She was on the phone with Bob, but he sent HRG to do the actual deed (as the price he was paying for being assured of his family's safety). Bob didn't have Elle as an assassin, so he sent HRG.


See, I think that if she were on the phone with a character we already know, they would have shown who she was talking to. The way they set up that scene, I thought it seemed pretty obvious that she was talking to someone we don't know and that she's got a secret motive that's not necessarily aligned with the motives of The Company.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> See, I think that if she were on the phone with a character we already know, they would have shown who she was talking to. The way they set up that scene, I thought it seemed pretty obvious that she was talking to someone we don't know and that she's got a secret motive that's not necessarily aligned with the motives of The Company.


It's possible it was someone we don't know, but that doesn't mean it was the same person as the shooter.

Of course, it could also be someone we know, but who we think is dead.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

I know it's part of the story line that no one cares about, but on the cover of "9th Wonders" that was stolen from Micah, St. Joan is holding a wavy blade. That wavy blade is also seen in the vault with the virus. So somehow Monica gets ahold of that knife.

Here's the cover:


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

hanumang said:


> Personally, I think you guys fail to 'appreciate' (OK, maybe not the best choice of words) the fact that Heroes is (classic) comic-book storytelling and logic. Basically, the plots, characters and situations will always be somewhat cornball. Factoring this into my expectations, I think Heroes is quite enjoyable (it's corniness is almost endearing to me).


Corniness is one thing.
Plot holes big enough to drive a starship through are another thing entirely.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

astrohip said:


> What real purpose did Maya & her bro (who was so nothing I can't even remember his name anymore) serve? Her power is almost worthless, especially in terms of future plot development.


Any power that can be labeled something as simple as "causes death" seems like a valuable power to me. As for the future, perhaps we'll find out it trumps the regenerative powers of Claire, Adam, etc. And perhaps we'll also see a plotline where blood of a regenerative hero is passed around to 'evil' heroes to make them virtually unstoppable. Perhaps her power is used to stop all that. Just pie-in-the-sky thoughts but, still.


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## skywalkr2 (Jun 16, 2003)

removed as this was asked and answered multiple times


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

nataylor said:


> I know it's part of the story line that no one cares about, but on the cover of "9th Wonders" that was stolen from Micah, St. Joan is holding a wavy blade. That wavy blade is also seen in the vault with the virus. So somehow Monica gets ahold of that knife.
> 
> Here's the cover:


Sometimes refered to as KRIS KNIFE style.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Skittles said:


> The coffin was in the Nakamura family plot, so a good assumption would be that Hiro had it placed there as a contingency. He'd just teleport himself and Adam into the coffin, then teleport out.


Didn't Hiro say something in the funeral episode about coffins in Japan being buried empty? In which case, it would have been Kaito's empty coffin.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

getbak said:


> Does anyone actually think Niki and Nathan are going to be dead when the show comes back?


I think Ali Larter will be back, but I'm hoping she's not Niki. Jessica and Gina are a lot more fun and they might fit into the Villains motif of Chapter 3. Plus they didn't show us a body. I noticed that she had the same strain of the virus as Sylar, the one which took his powers, but didn't kill him, so maybe they intend to bring her back.

I think Adam will be back as well. Adam, Sylar, and Jessica would be quite a good nucleus for a group of supervillains.

As for Nathan, I can see that one going either way.

I struck me as really odd that Elle has been walking around with her arm in a sling for two episodes. The Company has Claire's blood, which they used on HRG, which they were going to use on Niki and which got used on Maya and Sylar instead. But, Bob won't use it to heal his daughter?


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

Yet another plot hole!


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

nirisahn said:


> Yet another plot hole!


the thing with Elle's arm?


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Shakhari said:


> I struck me as really odd that Elle has been walking around with her arm in a sling for two episodes. The Company has Claire's blood, which they used on HRG, which they were going to use on Niki and which got used on Maya and Sylar instead. But, Bob won't use it to heal his daughter?


I would think they'd consider that limited quantity of blood as somewhat precious. Why waste it on a something that is really just a superficial wound?


----------



## HoldenBanky (Oct 25, 2006)

JYoung said:


> Corniness is one thing.
> Plot holes big enough to drive a starship through are another thing entirely.


If we are going to be a stickler for plotholes, wouldn't they be big enough to *fly* a starship through?


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

HoldenBanky said:


> If we are going to be a stickler for plotholes, wouldn't they be big enough to *fly* a starship through?


As long as the starship has wheels it's probably the same size of hole and thus irrelevant. Unless the starship is on a treadmill.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Skittles said:


> I will say, I got a good laugh out of seeing Parkman riding on Nathan's back for half a second, which was immediately followed by Parkman saying 'Let's never talk about that again'.
> 
> Even if the overall episode was ho-hum for me, that one line was worth a good laugh.


I thought they handled the depiction of flight better in this episode, generally. They did it with practical effects rather than special effects. We saw people's feet landing, etc. No real fakey-looking greenscreen stuff this time.

The mini clip show that they ran (I think it was during Nathan's speech?) where they showed highlights of the season saddened me. It saddened me because those were all good clips. A series that featured all those moments should have been better then this season panned out to be. For me, this season was definitely less than the sum of its parts. Here's hoping that they pull it together for Volume III, whenever that may wind up being.


----------



## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

getbak said:


> Does anyone actually think Niki and Nathan are going to be dead when the show comes back?


Niki yes
Nathan No

We'll find out whether or not you can regenerate after you've been given some heal-me blood. No one's been killed AFTER they were given the heal-thyself blood until Nathan. My guess is that Nathan's body starts spitting bullets out and sucking his blood back in wiping away the wounds. Makes sense to me...especially since he didn't take a slug to the forehead like mama Petrelli said Pete and Adam needed. I know, I know, I know, I know, Nate's not immortal so he might not've needed that big of a wound. Still, if'n they wanted to make double sure he'd die they coulda given him a .38 frontal labotomy. Or, as they say on "Farm Film Celebrity Blow-Up" they coulda targeted Nate and made sure they "blowed it up real good" ala Nilki.


----------



## Fassade (Apr 8, 2004)

Billyh1026 said:


> Niki yes
> Nathan No
> 
> We'll find out whether or not you can regenerate after you've been given some heal-me blood. No one's been killed AFTER they were given the heal-thyself blood until Nathan. My guess is that Nathan's body starts spitting bullets out and sucking his blood back in wiping away the wounds. Makes sense to me...especially since he didn't take a slug to the forehead like mama Petrelli said Pete and Adam needed. I know, I know, I know, I know, Nate's not immortal so he might not've needed that big of a wound. Still, if'n they wanted to make double sure he'd die they coulda given him a .38 frontal labotomy. Or, as they say on "Farm Film Celebrity Blow-Up" they coulda targeted Nate and made sure they "blowed it up real good" ala Nilki.


Could be...but even if Adam's blood has no permanent effects on Nathan, Peter has the same powers, knows how Adam administered the cure, and is right there holding his brother. It might not work, but Peter might at least ditch the crowd and give it a shot.

Of course, Peter would have to demonstrate far more intelligence about his powers than he has shown in the past to figure it out.


----------



## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

Billyh1026 said:


> Niki yes
> Nathan No


I really hope this is the case.

One of the reasons I watch this show is Adrian Pasdar, but one of the reasons I dread watching is Nikki (nothing against Ali Larter, but the character is a drag). I really hope Nathan isn't gone for good.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Nikki would be a great character if not for all the plot contrivances to prevent her from using her power. Oh wait, that's true of almost all characters in this show.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I think Peter has too much power. If he ever learns Micah's ability he'll be like every comic book hero and villain rolled up into one.


I just watched this episode, and I kept being irritated how they gave Peter all these powers, but doesn't let him use them (as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread). What really bugs me is that it's just lazy writing - it would be very simple to create situations that would follow the internal logic, while at the same time being suspenseful, if they just made it so Peter could only use one power at a time.

I liked the episode overall, but I really don't care anymore about any of the characters, and that has been brought on mostly by really bad, sloppy and lazy writing.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

nirisahn said:


> I agree with the ones who thing it's HRG. When he went to the house to talk Claire out of exposing their secrets, he said he made a deal with the company to keep them safe. He had to go back to the company, and they would leave his family alone. And the shooter looked like HRG from the back. So my guess is that the company got wind of what Nathan was going to do and sent HRG to stop it.


So HRG just shot Nathan, Claire's father. I certainly wouldn't want her to find out about that... It is something he would do though. The 'keep my family safe no matter how many people I murder' excuse would fit.


----------



## borther (Jan 22, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> While I am sure I will get bashed for saying it, I enjoyed it. You guys think too hard.


+1

I also don't think that the Sylar is back storyline will be the main story. I expect that a war is brewing between the "old guard", represented by the Company and the new genereration of Heroes. That may be the "Pandora's Box".


----------



## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I just watched this episode, and I kept being irritated how they gave Peter all these powers, but doesn't let him use them (as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread). What really bugs me is that it's just lazy writing - it would be very simple to create situations that would follow the internal logic, while at the same time being suspenseful, if they just made it so Peter could only use one power at a time.


Since people keep bagging on Peter for being not-so-bright, that actually brings up something that I was thinking of a few episodes back  did Peter actually ever finish his training with Claude?

I haven't seen Volume 1 since the original broadcasts, but I seem to remember that Peter's training was left incomplete (in terms of both the powers that he had at the time and his ability to juggle/combine them). Maybe I'm combining episodes but I recall Claude running off (all paranoid) after they (Peter & Claude) got ambushed on the Devereaux rooftop by HRG.

Or am I simply going easy on the _Heroes_ team?


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Jeeters said:


> I would think they'd consider that limited quantity of blood as somewhat precious. Why waste it on a something that is really just a superficial wound?


She can make more yanno....


----------



## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

whitepelican said:


> Damn, I was about to smeek that same thought when I saw your post. Yes, Arvin Sloan and Adam Monroe both met the same fate. And in both cases they are immortal and eternity is a very long time. So long that the earth will change quite a bit, and neither will ever really be buried for all eternity. They'll be back, and maybe they'll team up this time!


That would be strange and interesting, since Adam Monroe = Sark...


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

TheGreyOwl said:


> Adam Monroe = Sark...


Thank you! I could not place where I had seen him before. That had been bothering me all season!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stalemate said:


> Thank you! I could not place where I had seen him before. That had been bothering me all season!


Ironically, the actor is American...


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Well, I put in my DVD of Season 1 last night and something hit me. I know everyone's been complaining about the SFX this season, but when you go back and directly compair, you really wonder what went wrong. You would think season 2, after season 1 was such a big hit, would have had a bigger budget. Seeing Hiro stop time to save the school girl in season 1 was awesome and I remember thinking when I first saw it that it was some of the best sfx I had seen on tv.

Did the special effects team go on strike before the writers or something???


----------



## Flyinace2000 (Aug 2, 2005)

Alright, i got some spaz questions. HGR is Mr. (Noah) Bennet but why are we abbreviating it to HGR? At first i thought it was Horn Rimmed Glasses, but that is HRG.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Flyinace2000 said:


> Alright, i got some spaz questions. HGR is Mr. (Noah) Bennet but why are we abbreviating it to HGR? At first i thought it was Horn Rimmed Glasses, but that is HRG.


I don't know, you are the one who started it so we'll let you answer. The only place HGR appears in this entire thread is your post (and now mine).


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Nathan must live. Nikki can stay dead. Boo to Maya coming back from the dead. Boo to Mohindar overall - I used to like him so much.

I am hoping that all these loose ends and plot holes come together in one whizz-banger of a Season Three.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

jenhudson said:


> Nikki can stay dead.


I would have agreed until I saw her in those dress slacks earlier this season.


----------



## TivoFan (Feb 22, 2000)

danplaysbass said:


> Here is a guy with almost limitless powers. Had he used them the entire plot would have been (even more) anticlimactic and you would have complained. This is the problem with having omnipotent characters. At least superman has his kryptonite...





Rob Helmerichs said:


> I thought at the end of last season that Peter was just too powerful to be an interesting or useful character...at first this season, it looked like they were de-powering him, but now that he's back to full force, he has become a serious storytelling liability again.


Things are only interesting when there is a struggle. Peter, at his full potential, could defeat anyone (except possibly Sylar) without working up a sweat. The only way to make him a real character is to give him limitations. You have to limit his ability to use powers to make him interesting. Maybe by making it tire him out a lot to use them, or making him forget how to use them (already done) But seriously how many problems could faze him if he can just teleport in, freeze time, read everyone's mind and then kill the bad guy.



astrohip said:


> Plot holes don't really bother me, and I can handle inconsistencies, writer goofs and all sorts of nitpicks. I can't handle pointless & boring story arcs.


Truthfully, most of the plot holes that are done in tv are done because they make the story more interesting and most people don't notice the problem while they are watching. We've been trained to suspend disbelief too well.

Unfortunately writers have gotten lazy too. I know they are under time crunches but there are just too many things that don't make sense in most shows. I do notice plot holes and goofs. Not all of them, but enough that it makes watching shows with big errors not as fun.

When you combine all the problems on heroes, the plot holes, consistency goofs, rambling storylines that don't tie into the main story very well (Japan, Maya/Miguel, Niki/Micah/Joan) and the slow going of the first half of the season, I haven't really enjoyed this season much. I still think it has potential, but I don't think the writers are doing a great job. If this keeps up, I may end up cutting the season pass on volume 3.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Wow, five pages and nobody has postulated that Nathan's killer is future Peter? Well then let me be the first. Nathan's killer is future Peter.

I also kept saying to my wife and the TV, why don't you just walk through the wall of the safe and destroy the virus. With all the doubts about Adam, don't take him with you. Simply walk in there and destroy it. It was a huge plot hole. 

Overall I enjoyed the season, but am getting a little tired of these heroes being so incredibly dumb. It's endearing in a comedy setting, but here I want to root for good guys with an IQ greater than 100. They've written these characters as so incredibly lame-brained that it's impossible to believe they can actually survive on their own. I'll give them a very slight benefit of the doubt due to the compressed schedule at the end, but if our heroes don't start to at least show middle school level intelligence I may have to stop watching.


----------



## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

Not only could Peter have walked through the safe, but he could have entered the whole facility while invisible. In and out, destroy the virus, with no one being the wiser.


----------



## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

Adrian Pasdar is HAWT. 

I hope he comes back.

That is all.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TheGreyOwl said:


> Not only could Peter have walked through the safe, but he could have entered the whole facility while invisible. In and out, destroy the virus, with no one being the wiser.


Yep. The whole sequence was a great example of lazy writing, where they decide on some cool situation and then write everything to get to that, even though it goes against the internal logic of the series as established previously.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

johnperkins21 said:


> Wow, five pages and nobody has postulated that Nathan's killer is future Peter? Well then let me be the first. Nathan's killer is future Peter.


First, it's HRG killing his daughter's biological father and now it's Peter killing his brother.

Did anyone happen to catch where the press conference was held? Was it in New York or Texas?

Why would future Peter kill Nathan?

Who was the "everyone" that Matt was supposed to make 'pay attention'? Everyone watching? The entire planet? I don't think Parkman is that powerful.

Matt and Mama Petrelli must have a power in common. They can both persuade people to do things they wouldn't normally do. If, in fact, that Mama Petreli has a power.

The woman that Peter and Adam killed (well Adam anyway), what was her power?


----------



## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> How about next time you start floating immediately and talk about actual powers instead of "people have a secret and I'm going to tell it now! It's a big secret. Somewhere around the size of jupiter, but not as big as the milky way. If I had to say what color the secret is, it would be mauve. I've had the secret for 2 years 16 months 23 days 8 hours and 7 minutes. I think I first learned it shortly after getting a haircut at the barber shop on 18th street near the bank."


That made me LOL.


----------



## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

Two issues I didn't see in this thread that bear discussion and analysis (that is sarcasm, btw):

What about the blinking red light that showed where the hidden cameras were located? And that they all were in the vault, but no one noticed the light in the vent?

How can giving a dead person a shot of special blood bring them back to life? Since they are dead, their heart isn't beating, therefore their blood isn't flowing. So the new shot of blood won't actually go anywhere.

And for the record, all the noted plot holes don't bother me. I just enjoy the ride.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Donbadabon said:


> What about the blinking red light that showed where the hidden cameras were located? And that they all were in the vault, but no one noticed the light in the vent?


I think blinking red camera lights on TV shows are like the visual blurs on Smallville...nobody on the actual show can see them, just the viewer.

(And I'm actually being half-serious, or maybe even 3/4--it's a visual cue to the viewer, not meant to be something visible to the characters. It's only a problem when it gets in the way of the story, and the blinking red light is such a common technique that I don't even question why the characters don't see it any more.)


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Yep. The whole sequence was a great example of lazy writing, where they decide on some cool situation and then write everything to get to that, even though it goes against the internal logic of the series as established previously.


It felt to me like the re-write to force-feed us an ending "worthy of a season ender" began the minute Matt and Nathan landed at Primatech. From that point on, everything felt off to me. The lines felt forced, the story wasn't great, and the whole "clip show" was awful.


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

This show sucks! I can't wait till it comes back!


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Sirius Black said:


> First, it's HRG killing his daughter's biological father and now it's Peter killing his brother.
> 
> Did anyone happen to catch where the press conference was held? Was it in New York or Texas?
> 
> ...


The press conference was in Odessa. The seal behind Nathan said Texas on it.

Who knows why Peter would have to kill Nathan, but there could be some reason. Maybe telling the world of their power somehow causes catastrophic events? He knows that he can bring him back to life though, so maybe that's the "Pandora's Box" that Mama was talking about?

I still don't believe that Mama Petrelli actually has any power. And I don't think that the lady Adam killed had a power either. I think that they were simply significant others to people who had a power. Not everyone who started The Company necessarily had a power. Sulu didn't have a power that I'm aware of either. The idea that Mama Petrelli and Sulu had powers is simply conjecture at this point. There has been no evidence of it from the show or any of the online comics (that I've read to this point anyway).


----------



## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

johnperkins21 said:


> Sulu didn't have a power that I'm aware of either.


 He could say "Enterprise" like it's nobody's business!


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

TivoFan said:


> Things are only interesting when there is a struggle. Peter, at his full potential, could defeat anyone (except possibly Sylar) without working up a sweat. The only way to make him a real character is to give him limitations. You have to limit his ability to use powers to make him interesting. Maybe by making it tire him out a lot to use them, or making him forget how to use them (already done) But seriously how many problems could faze him if he can just teleport in, freeze time, read everyone's mind and then kill the bad guy.


In both DC and Marvel comics, there are quite a few people, mutants, or androids who can copy superpowers. Nearly all of them are villians. It's very tricky writing a hero with that kind of power. In a way I can understand making him inept at using his power effectively, but it's still somewhat annoying to always be yelling "Why didn't you do X, idiot" at the TV screen.


----------



## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

johnperkins21 said:


> Wow, five pages and nobody has postulated that Nathan's killer is future Peter? Well then let me be the first. Nathan's killer is future Peter.
> 
> I also kept saying to my wife and the TV, why don't you just walk through the wall of the safe and destroy the virus. With all the doubts about Adam, don't take him with you. Simply walk in there and destroy it. It was a huge plot hole.
> 
> Overall I enjoyed the season, but am getting a little tired of these heroes being so incredibly dumb. It's endearing in a comedy setting, but here I want to root for good guys with an IQ greater than 100. They've written these characters as so incredibly lame-brained that it's impossible to believe they can actually survive on their own. I'll give them a very slight benefit of the doubt due to the compressed schedule at the end, but if our heroes don't start to at least show middle school level intelligence I may have to stop watching.


very similar to my "Kaito's killer is future Hiro" theory a couple of weeks ago. I think either of these would be a bold twist and add some depth to the characters.


----------



## rich (Mar 18, 2002)

I keep thinking of Number 2 giving advice to Dr. Evil:

"Now, Bob, the Company has in its possession a bag of blood that will cure *anything*, even death and dismemberment! Why don't you figure out how it works and patent it, then start selling it and become the richest man on Earth? Legitimately?"

"NO! We want to remain shadowy!"


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

astrohip said:


> ...
> 
> Originally, the idea was for Season One to stand alone, and for many (most?) of the characters to not return. It was going to be the concept of Heroes year after year, but not the *same* heroes. I think this would have given the writers an incredibly rich pallete of stories to pick from, and powers that would be both fresh and interesting.
> 
> ...


This is my problem with this season. I was very much anticipating and looking forward to the original concept. It looked like they were going to stick to it too, as they started killing off people during the 1st season. But like most American shows, success rots away creativity. They realized they had a popular formula, so they kept it. They even acknowledged that's what they did when they said they thought what everyone wanted was more of Season 1. Really, they don't even have to _kill_ people to move forward with new heroes and new stories. Hiro doesn't need to be killed just because you're not going to use him in an upcoming season. Nobody does. You simply move the story onto new people and different scenarios. But here we are with Sylar once again the villain doing the same stuff he did all of Season 1. That disappoints me. Now, for some other thoughts I had.

1) Peter not simply stopping time, like people suggested. Well, Peter *never* mastered that ability. Even Hiro had trouble with it for a while.

2) Peter not walking through the vault door. You're right. He probably would have just phased through it. A slip (amongst many) on the writers' part.

3) I was finally really liking Nikki. Even without her strength and the aid of other personalities, she found courage and whupped that thug's butt! She's one of the few people I would want to see in the future.

4) Nathan's death. You're right. No way people wouldn't have turned around and caught that guy.

5) I think Nathan and Claire had the right ideas. Go public. Even if you don't bring the company down, going public will put a spotlight on you making it much much more difficult for the company to go around. They'd probably leave them alone since it would be too dangerous to try to abduct them, and there'd be little reason since they're already public.

6) Adam being buried alive. Yeah, I know you need the basic building blocks of life (water, air) to regenerate, but that's where we suspend belief. I can see Adam clawing and chewing his way out. After all, he's got a lot of time to do it, and his fingers and jaws will keep regenerating until he's finally worked his way out of the ground. If you were in a box underground, you know you'd be doing the same.

7) Mohinder should have tackled Sylar as soon as he put down the gun! Idiot!


----------



## TreborPugly (May 2, 2002)

I think the bullet through the brain idea is just an idea. We know of no one who has actually killed a person with the regenerating ability. Last season, Peter told Claire that it "might" be a way to kill him if she needed to. I think Mama's suggestion to Peter is just as much conjecture. There's nothing wrong with the characters having a wrong idea about how to kill a regenerator. 

The guy who killed Nathan: I think it must be someone older, who is a confidant of Mama Patrelli. That leaves out flying boy. She sees the surveillance of the vault and lets someone know what Nathan is planning. This someone goes to stop him, gets there just in time, kills him, leaves, and calls Mama Patrelli to apologize for killing her son. Could be someone new. Maybe she has a third son, born before Nathan.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

bobcarn said:


> 4) Nathan's death. You're right. No way people wouldn't have turned around and caught that guy.
> 
> 5) I think Nathan and Claire had the right ideas. Go public.


I thought we decided that Parkman had the crowd all focused so hard on Nathan that even after he was shot they could only look at him.

If they go public, they might be jumping from the frying pan into the fire--going from the company to the government. Their chances for a normal life would be shot. Can you imagine the government letting someone with Claire's power go?

Trying to figure out what Maya's purpose is--is it possible that the virus that kills 94% of the world isn't really Shanti, but is Maya's illness? Maybe the vial was never going to get out, but the world was doomed when they saved Maya. Maybe she was supposed to die.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I just rewatched, and thought of a couple things (forgive me if I smeek.)

When Angela Petrelli listened to the news, it said Nathan was shot, not shot and killed. Perhaps Peter did a quick injection of his own blood?

Regarding Peter's girlfriend: She was brought forward to a reality where the virus had killed most of mankind. Peter has prevented that reality from occurring, so, can she be brought back? Will Peter try, and will he need Hiro's experience to get there? And if he can't bring her back, what will be the ramifications (to the Company)?


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Philosofy said:


> When Angela Petrelli listened to the news, it said Nathan was shot, not shot and killed.


I noticed that too, but it also referred to the shooter as an "assassin." Would the shooter be an assassin if the target didn't die?


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Ok, let's leave the flying folks out of this part. How the hell is everyone getting from NY to CA so damn fast? Bob and Noah just get there when they had clearly just been with Elle in NY?

Why more Sylar? He is the biggest whiny ***** of a bad guy. I hope 24 dude is a better Spock than he is a villain.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I"m pretty sure Nathan was shot and killed -- dead.

But. .. all he needs is another injection of Claire's blood, and he'll come back to life. in fact, no one is permanantly dead because of the plot device of the blood.

What's the called?

A McGuffin? Deus es Machina?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I"m pretty sure Nathan was shot and killed -- dead.
> 
> But. .. all he needs is another injection of Claire's blood, and he'll come back to life. in fact, no one is permanantly dead because of the plot device of the blood.
> 
> ...


Midichlorians!


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

TheGreyOwl said:


> Not only could Peter have walked through the safe, but he could have entered the whole facility while invisible. In and out, destroy the virus, with no one being the wiser.


That's true. I didn't even think of his invisibility.

What's wrong with Peter? I think the Hatian wiped out more than he should have.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> no one is permanantly dead because of the plot device of the blood.
> 
> What's the called?


The last couple seasons of Alias?


----------



## Fassade (Apr 8, 2004)

unicorngoddess said:


> That's true. I didn't even think of his invisibility.
> 
> What's wrong with Peter? I think the Hatian wiped out more than he should have.


While Peter is not exactly a master tactician, in his defense on this point, Adam needed to enter the facility for his own reasons. He would have withheld from Peter enough information on where the virus was, and what it would look like, s Peter would have had to to take them both inside. I do not think we ever saw that Claude/Peter's invisibility could make a 2nd person invisible at the same time, though perhaps we did and I simply do not recall.


----------



## ZooCaretaker (May 22, 2007)

unicorngoddess said:


> That's true. I didn't even think of his invisibility.
> 
> What's wrong with Peter? I think the Hatian wiped out more than he should have.


What was the purpose of the Haitian wiping out Peter's memory anyway?


----------



## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

Lots of kvetching here as usual. I don't understand what folks are complaining about. Half the complaints aren't even valid, mostly it's folks forgetting something from previous episodes. The show is just as compelling as it was in season 1.



Turtleboy said:


> How do you assisnate someone in a police station and just walk out?


Yeah, how ridiculous was that!? That'd never happen in real life! 










It's not like he Ruby'd him.


----------



## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Lots of kvetching here as usual. I don't understand what folks are complaining about. Half the complaints aren't even valid, mostly it's folks forgetting something from previous episodes.


 Such as what?


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Lots of kvetching here as usual. I don't understand what folks are complaining about. Half the complaints aren't even valid, mostly it's folks forgetting something from previous episodes. The show is just as compelling as it was in season 1.
> 
> Yeah, how ridiculous was that!? That'd never happen in real life!
> 
> ...


Did ruby walk out the door free? Or was he immediately grabbed on the spot?


----------



## dansee (Oct 23, 2003)

And once again, the big, hyped "finale" is not all that big... or much of a finale.

Still, things moved along nicely, so I can't complain too much about the episode. I'm willing to overlook a lot of plot holes, if something keeps me engaged, and they certainly managed to do it this week.

Really, truly, think it's time for Sylar to go. His schtick is getting old.

Still have no idea why the remaining mexitwin is around... talk about a lot of wasted plot hours.

As heroes go, this has got to be the biggest collection of gullible, dense, idiots ever assembled. At times, the show is starting to feel more like "Mystery Men."

They always manage to give me just enough to keep coming back the next time. If they can keep things rolling like the last few weeks, I'll keep hanging in there with them, although sometimes that's been awfully painful to do this season.


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Fassade said:


> While Peter is not exactly a master tactician, in his defense on this point, Adam needed to enter the facility for his own reasons. He would have withheld from Peter enough information on where the virus was, and what it would look like, s Peter would have had to to take them both inside. I do not think we ever saw that Claude/Peter's invisibility could make a 2nd person invisible at the same time, though perhaps we did and I simply do not recall.


Once Peter knew where it was in the vault, he could have left Adam outside and phased through and simply destroyed everything in the room. You're out to save the world and you have been given doubts about the man who's supposedly helping you. If he won't tell you specific details about the item and insists he goes along, then he's using you.

It's not that he's "not exactly a master tactician," it's that he's functionally retarded. Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson are smarter characters.


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## Grandpasteve (Jan 13, 2007)

Peter000 said:


> It wasn't just you. That was bugging me throughout the whole episode. Very distracting.


Yes, I just picked up an old 36" trinitron and thought the CRT focus was going. I had to rewind to make sure it was the cinematography.


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

dansee said:


> As heroes go, this has got to be the biggest collection of gullible, dense, idiots ever assembled. At times, the show is starting to feel more like "Mystery Men."


If you gave the average person these powers, would they be any smarter? Have you seen the "stupid criminal" shows? Jaywalking?


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## Fassade (Apr 8, 2004)

johnperkins21 said:


> Once Peter knew where it was in the vault, he could have left Adam outside and phased through and simply destroyed everything in the room. You're out to save the world and you have been given doubts about the man who's supposedly helping you. If he won't tell you specific details about the item and insists he goes along, then he's using you.


Yup, he could have done any of these things. In fact, he could have simply stopped time, and leisurely strolled through the entire facility, examining every single item bit by bit, until he found the right one. That is the problem with Peter as a character right now -- there is no opponent who can challenge him, and literally nothing he cannot do, if he takes even a moment to think about it. Since he can also stop time, he should always be able to take that moment. So, the writers make critical thinking his kryptonite, as otherwise every episode would end before the opening credits.


johnperkins21 said:


> It's not that he's "not exactly a master tactician," it's that he's functionally retarded. Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson are smarter characters.


Yes, I noticed in his apocalyptic future, Peter Petrelli never once thought to seek out the abandoned Twinkie factory


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

mrmike said:


> If you gave the average person these powers, would they be any smarter? Have you seen the "stupid criminal" shows? Jaywalking?


 It's not that. It's that Peter (and most of them) seem to be able to call upon their powers perfectly, when it suits the plot. Otherwise they seem to forget they have them.

And, why didn't Peter read Adam's mind or the people telling him about Adam?


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## DPF (Mar 20, 2003)

I didn't think it was all that bad considering it was forced to a quick conclusion. Of course there's no guarantees it would have been better if the whole thing had played out as originally planned .

The only little nugget I noticed last night was in the vault among the "artifacts" was a plastic-encased batch of playing cards. 

All that went through my head was, "C'mon, don't tell me one of you writer guys has a Gambit type character in the pipe"

Hopefully it was just a nod to comic dorks (obviously, myself included)
-DPF


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

DPF said:


> The only little nugget I noticed last night was in the vault among the "artifacts" was a plastic-encased batch of playing cards.
> 
> All that went through my head was, "C'mon, don't tell me one of you writer guys has a Gambit type character in the pipe"
> 
> Hopefully it was just a nod to comic dorks (obviously, myself included)


Funny, when I saw them (pretty sure they were three queens) I thought of the George R.R. Martin "Wild Cards" books.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Yep. The whole sequence was a great example of lazy writing, where they decide on some cool situation and then write everything to get to that, even though it goes against the internal logic of the series as established previously.



This might be the head writer ...


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Did ruby walk out the door free? Or was he immediately grabbed on the spot?


I said he *wasn't* like Ruby. Ruby would have got away had he shot from a distance, just like our guy did.


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## gpejsa (Jan 27, 2002)

Do you think EDGAR from 24 will recreate his traumatic death gasp? lol



bdowell said:


> They had CTU set up a hard perimeter?!?


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

On my big HDTV it sure looked like Clair's stepfather shot her real father.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> On my big HDTV it sure looked like Clair's stepfather shot her real father.


how could he have gotten from NY to CA to TX that quickly?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Figaro said:


> how could he have gotten from NY to CA to TX that quickly?


The whole timeline has been messed up all season.

But how much time did he need? Planes fly quickly. When was he last where?


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Most of the plot holes could be explained away in future episodes, so it didn't bother me so much.

The fact of the matter is, they _must_ put some kind of limitation on Peter's powers - perhaps it's always been there, but they haven't explained it. For example, the time stopping thing - Hiro cannot stop time indefinitely, so why should Peter be able to? At any rate, I think Sylar's going to lead a bunch of villains and the only one who can beat Sylar will be Peter.

It would be pretty awesome to meet another "Sponge" (since Claude alluded to them existing), perhaps one of the original company people, who has all of their abilities? Then maybe we can find out what the parents could do before they bought it.

Anyway, back to this episode:

Peter can copy Adam's / Claire's abilities, that doesn't mean his blood will be the same as theirs. I don't think Peter's blood will do anything for Nathan.

Didn't anyone notice that the plot in which Hiro deposited Adam was dug very recently? I doubt very much that Hiro teleported into a buried casket with Adam. At the very least, it seems to me that Hiro can stop time right before teleporting into a location - he could've stopped time, teleported in as the casket was in the hole (but not buried), put Adam in the casket, and .... yeah... teleporting into a big casket is easier to explain. 

Didn't anyone notice the BRAIN that was in the vault? Whose brain is that, and how will Sylar get his hands on it???

I don't think the shooter is HRG - it's probably a character to which we've been introduced (and therefore would recognize had they shown his/her face), but wasn't a major character until now. Perhaps someone we thought was dead or gone?

I also don't think it's Claude - he was decidedly anti-company. Maybe it was the Haitian - THAT would be a twist, and we know he'd been working with big momma in the past.

</random ramblings>

P.S. I never liked Mohinder.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

stalemate said:


> Yep. Buried alive and unable to die. Awful.


I thought it was appropriate......Just like in the Series end to Alias. Kind of a neatr connection there.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> The whole timeline has been messed up all season.
> 
> But how much time did he need? Planes fly quickly. When was he last where?


They don't fly that quickly.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Figaro said:


> They don't fly that quickly.


Again, what was the timeline?

Tell me when the shooting was relative to when other things were.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

The shooting took exactly the amount of time it would take whoever shot Nathan to get there from wherever they were.

-smak-


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

spikedavis said:


> .... You can tell a show is bad when even Kristen Bell delivers her lines bad. "My dad's gonna kill me!"


As I stated in a previous Heroes thread, Bell is a HORRID actress....even in her previous show (whatever that was called)...


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## chavez (Nov 18, 2004)

allow me to partake in the festivus "airing of grievances"...

what really annoyed me, probably because I've seen it done so many other times, was when Elle runs into the painter's studio to stop Sylar. What does she do? Does she hit him in the back with a blast of electricity? No. She runs into the room. Stops... and yells out "Sylar!". Then does nothing while Sylar turns and shoots at her. 

The only really good thing I saw in this episode was the burying of Adam Monroe. It was unexpected, cool, and creepy.

oh... and what bugs me about Sylar, and has always bugged me about his character, is that his motivation isn't all that clear. I prefer a Magneto-type villain whose actions are at least based on a logic you can understand and sympathize with.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> As I stated in a previous Heroes thread, Bell is a HORRID actress....even in her previous show (whatever that was called)...


You obviously haven't seen the first season of that other show. It is really very good.


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## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> You obviously haven't seen the first season of that other show. It is really very good.


As were the other 2 seasons....

I miss it!


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Does Peter even know he can control time and space? Does he know that Hiro can do the same?

If he did, he would be extremely motivated to use that power to retrieve Caitlin.And he has yet to do so. His recent movement through time was not done voluntarily or at least wittingly.

In fact, his knowledge of his powers only comes by accident as I have seen it.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

stalemate said:


> Yep. Buried alive and unable to die. Awful.


Doesn't he have to eat?

Or can he just regenerate muscle when his body breaks it down for food. So not only is he buried alive, but he's also really hungry.

Double bummer.

But he'll get out in several hundred years when the casket erodes and he slowly digs his way out.


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

Actually I thought Hiro was going to teleport him to the prehistoric times with the dinosaurs


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Skittles said:


> The coffin was in the Nakamura family plot, so a good assumption would be that Hiro had it placed there as a contingency. He'd just teleport himself and Adam into the coffin, then teleport out.


But in the coffin together they'd be touching so wouldn't Adam get teleported back out?

I'm probably smeeking a lot at this point. Hmm...


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

ihatecable said:


> Actually I thought Hiro was going to teleport him to the prehistoric times with the dinosaurs


 What good would that do? He'd still live through time and be back.. and there would be two of him at some point.

He should have teleported to the moon and left him there and ported back.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

NJChris said:


> What good would that do? He'd still live through time and be back.. and there would be two of him at some point.
> 
> He should have teleported to the moon and left him there and ported back.


Or 100000 years into the future.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Ockham's razor, right?

We see HRG say "I made a deal with the company". Company doesn't want Heroes exposed to the world.

So HRG shot Nathan.


But taking Ockham's Razor from another angle, the simplest explanation is that the writers haven't decided who just killed Nathan (and that's why they didn't show us anything).


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> the simplest explanation is that the writers haven't decided who just killed Nathan (and that's why they didn't show us anything).


That would be my guess.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Up to this point I didn't think Elle was a very interesting character, but now that she's questioning her father and yet loving him so much and wanting to please him, I think she's really good. I hope at some point she'll discover that her real father is one of the good guys and that Bob just raised her like HRG did Claire--only he's a cold-hearted jerk.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

stellie93 said:


> Up to this point I didn't think Elle was a very interesting character, but now that she's questioning her father and yet loving him so much and wanting to please him, I think she's really good. I hope at some point she'll discover that her real father is one of the good guys and that Bob just raised her like HRG did Claire--only he's a cold-hearted jerk.


:up:
And I hope there is more Elle/Claire interaction. Together they were pretty entertaining to watch and I usually just find them annoying teenagers (though Elle is probably older she acts like an annoying teenager.)


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

nyny523 said:


> As were the other 2 seasons....
> 
> I miss it!


Me too


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

Shakhari said:


> I think Adam will be back as well. Adam, Sylar, and Jessica would be quite a good nucleus for a group of supervillains.


Typical comic book stuff. We didn't actually see Niki die. Therefore she is alive. Even if we saw her die, she will come back to life if required for some plot point.
Adam will of course be dug up by someone. This is typical of the "imprisoned but can't die" motif. "Immortal" is walled up behind bricks, buried alive, dumped in the ocean in a steel cage, locked in an iron maiden, etc, to suffer for all eternity. Until someone sets them free.

Smeeking what somebody else said, Heroes really is like a comic book. Nobody ever stays dead, unless necessary for a plot point. Well, unless they are needed later by another plot point. Putting limitations on people to further the plot is also the norm (see kryptonite). If you don't put limitations on all-powerful characters you don't have much conflict.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

TheGreyOwl said:


> Not only could Peter have walked through the safe, but he could have entered the whole facility while invisible. In and out, destroy the virus, with no one being the wiser.


If he knew how to find the virus. This was a large facility. There were lots of twisty corridors and even Adam had a problem remembering which way to go at one point. The same could have been true in the vault -- how to identify the virus. I think Adam could have easily convinced Peter that they needed to go together to correctly find and ID the virus.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Or they could've just teleported into the safe and it would've been done.

But then what would the other 59 minutes of show have been about?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

classicX said:


> Or they could've just teleported into the safe and it would've been done.
> 
> But then what would the other 59 minutes of show have been about?


That's probably EXACTLY what the lazy writers said.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

classicX said:


> Or they could've just teleported into the safe and it would've been done.
> 
> But then what would the other 59 minutes of show have been about?


As I said before, Peter has not knowingly used teleportation or time surfing. I don't think he knows he has that power.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

teknikel said:


> As I said before, Peter has not knowingly used teleportation or time surfing. I don't think he knows he has that power.


By now he would have to be a complete idiot NOT to know.

Then again, he's a complete idiot, so...


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## Fassade (Apr 8, 2004)

How did Peter back from future New York back to present day Montreal -- didn't Mama Petrelli say that he had to go back, and that Peter himself somehow transported himself? (Ok, he could have flown from NY->Montreal, but something would have had to get him through time first.) Unless I am forgetting another on-screen explanation, Peter would have to suspect he had at least time travel ability after making that journey.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

justen_m said:


> Smeeking what somebody else said, Heroes really is like a comic book. Nobody ever stays dead, unless necessary for a plot point. Well, unless they are needed later by another plot point. Putting limitations on people to further the plot is also the norm (see kryptonite). If you don't put limitations on all-powerful characters you don't have much conflict.


And because it's like a comic book it's not at all surprising that S2 was basically a rehash of S1. As far as I know (and I'm no expert), most comic-book stories are pretty similar to each other. Swap out the power, swap out the villain, swap out the motivation (girlfriend, family, save the world, etc.) but overall the stories are pretty formulaic. Therefore not surprising that S2 essentially mimics S1. What did we expect them to do? Have the heroes go to work in a forensic crime-solving unit, or take jobs in a hospital?


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

madscientist said:


> I dunno, this whole teleport thing seems like a whole different power than time control


Time to read some Einstein!



wprager said:


> You cannot generate energy, you can only change matter to energy and back.


Tell that to Ted. And Elle, for that matter -- they were talking about figuring out if she could power an entire city. Want to talk about conservation of mass/energy in terms of the powers of everyone else, while we're at it? You've got to assume what we know of physics is wrong in some places to accept a lot of this. The energy conservation of foodless regeneration is the least of it.

But really, what difference does it make if the coffin is a death sentence or eternal torture? Even if Hiro himself doesn't know which one it is, he probably doesn't care. He got Adam out of the picture either way.



nataylor said:


> I know it's part of the story line that no one cares about, but on the cover of "9th Wonders" that was stolen from Micah, St. Joan is holding a wavy blade. That wavy blade is also seen in the vault with the virus. So somehow Monica gets ahold of that knife.


I missed that but my wife picked up on it. Isaac's eight paintings came true awfully fast, but maybe the comics will allow some more of that gimmick yet.

Did anyone else expect to find the Terminator's hand in Primatech's vault somewhere?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

ZooCaretaker said:


> What was the purpose of the Haitian wiping out Peter's memory anyway?


I think because the Haitian was probably ordered to kill Peter, but didn't because he is not truly aligned with the bad guys, and wiped Peters memory for his own protection. Or something like that.


Hunter Green said:


> Did anyone else expect to find the Terminator's hand in Primatech's vault somewhere?


Hah! That wouldv'e been funny.


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## ZooCaretaker (May 22, 2007)

uncdrew said:


> But he'll get out in several hundred years when the casket erodes and he slowly digs his way out.


Not wanting to be morbid, but at least in the US and Canada they require putting the casket in a concrete vault.... making it much more difficult to get out of (although that's not the vaults intended purpose)

Check out http://www.ncbva.org/ or google search "coffin concrete vault"


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

ZooCaretaker said:


> Not wanting to be morbid, but at least in the US and Canada they require putting the casket in a concrete vault.... making it much more difficult to get out of (although that's not the vaults intended purpose)


 MAYBE it is! I don't see a zombie problem, so it must be working.


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

justen_m said:


> Typical comic book stuff. We didn't actually see Niki die. Therefore she is alive.  Even if we saw her die, she will come back to life if required for some plot point.
> Adam will of course be dug up by someone. This is typical of the "imprisoned but can't die" motif. "Immortal" is walled up behind bricks, buried alive, dumped in the ocean in a steel cage, locked in an iron maiden, etc, to suffer for all eternity. Until someone sets them free.


This is what i meant when talking about script writing in a few other threads.

No one can come up with an original idea anymore. They use old plots from other stories or shows with different characters. We see it all the time on Stargate Atlantis now. It is starting to piss me off. Then they have the nerve to strike! As I said in the other thread, i have worked with tv writers before - it is not brain surgery.

Rob


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

robpickles said:


> This is what i meant when talking about script writing in a few other threads.
> 
> No one can come up with an original idea anymore. They use old plots from other stories or shows with different characters. We see it all the time on Stargate Atlantis now. It is starting to piss me off. Then they have the nerve to strike! As I said in the other thread, i have worked with tv writers before - it is not brain surgery.


Ever watch the series "Charlie Jade"?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

teknikel said:


> As I said before, Peter has not knowingly used teleportation or time surfing. I don't think he knows he has that power.


He knows that he has that power, but he hasn't a clue how to control it. Remember, Hiro took all of S1 to get decent control over his power, and he STILL ended up in fedual Japan.


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## Bai Shen (Dec 17, 2004)

DPF said:


> I didn't think it was all that bad considering it was forced to a quick conclusion. Of course there's no guarantees it would have been better if the whole thing had played out as originally planned .
> 
> The only little nugget I noticed last night was in the vault among the "artifacts" was a plastic-encased batch of playing cards.
> 
> ...


Actually, I was wondering if it was the Dead Man's Hand. But I couldn't get a good enough look to tell.


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