# Any chance of this being on TiVo?



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

*Comcast Wholesale to provide full line of streaming services*



> Media services provider Comcast Wholesale (NASDAQ: CMCSA) is using the IBC show in Amsterdam to announce the launch of a full range of video streaming services.
> 
> Comcast Wholesale's Live Linear Streaming service is an end-to-end streaming solution for pay-TV operators, programmers *and anybody else launching OTT services.* Services include content ingest, encoding and packaging, playback, and delivery via the Comcast content delivery network (CDN) or the client's CDN. Also included is the mpx video management system from Comcast's advertising arm, thePlatform.
> 
> ...


More info here.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Sounds more like a service offered to the content providers. Although I guess if they had permission TiVo could use it to launch something akin to SlingTV/Playstation Vue. At least they wouldn't need to buy all their own encoding and broadcasting equipment that way. And they already have a pretty good relationship with Comcast. 

Maybe they will provide a real alternative to Aereo with actual OTT streaming.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Sounds more like a service offered to the content providers. Although I guess if they had permission TiVo could use it to launch something akin to SlingTV/Playstation Vue. At least they wouldn't need to buy all their own encoding and broadcasting equipment that way. And they already have a pretty good relationship with Comcast. Maybe they will provide a real alternative to Aereo with actual OTT streaming.


Read the text in *bold* above. Says third parties and independent startups, not just providers. Also read all the linked sites about it and you'll see that's what they're trying to attract.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm sure this is not related: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/comcast-roll-charge-home-internet-154504269.html


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> Read the text in *bold* above. Says third parties and independent startups, not just providers. Also read all the linked sites about it and you'll see that's what they're trying to attract.


Yeah but it's still essentially like a cloud service for encoding. You have to supply the content.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> I'm sure this is not related: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/comcast-roll-charge-home-internet-154504269.html


Yet there are still people who insist that things would be so much better and cheaper if all content were delivered via streaming and there was no linear TV.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah but it's still essentially like a cloud service for encoding. You have to supply the content.


Nope!......



> Comcast Wholesales Live Linear Streaming solution provides all of the service components and features you need to launch and evolve your full multiplatform lineup of advanced TV Everywhere, including:
> 
> Easy ingest of the source video feed
> 
> ...


From HERE


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

JoeKustra said:


> I'm sure this is not related: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/comcast-roll-charge-home-internet-154504269.html





lpwcomp said:


> Yet there are still people who insist that things would be so much better and cheaper if all content were delivered via streaming and there was no linear TV.


Agreed, that sucks! but I do like the idea that TiVo could go OTT to grow bigger and not be bound by the ridiculous MSOs like Comcast, TWC, DirecTV, et al with things like cablecards, tuning adapters, intentional crappy setup flaws to push people away from TiVo, yada yada yada.

If TiVo went and offered an OTT service, then I'd seriously consider doing it just to give them my full support and screw the likes of Comcrap, Turd Warmer, DirecFeeVee, etc.!


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> If TiVo went and offered an OTT service, then I'd seriously consider doing it just to give them my full support and screw the likes of Comcrap, Turd Warmer, DirecFeeVee, etc.!


That's just it. Since most of them are also content providers and/or ISPs, they're going to get their money one way or another.

Edit: Also, if you're getting everything OTT, which can't be recorded, what's the point in having a DVR?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> That's just it. Since most of them are also content providers and/or ISPs, they're going to get their money one way or another.


Unfortunately true


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> .........Edit: Also, if you're getting everything OTT, which can't be recorded, what's the point in having a DVR?


I'm thinking maybe if they do OTA for the local broadcasts networks, then their OTT service would provide the cable type channels, a la SlingTV.

Maybe that's what the Bolt Aereo Edition will be?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Neither cable nor satellite would be as popular as they are if OTA worked better, but for most people OTA sucks.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> Nope!......
> 
> From HERE


That says they have access to 500+ live streams, not that it's a turn key solution to those streams. I bet the user still needs to have rights to broadcast those streams before they're allowed to use them.

But something like this does make it a LOT easier for a company like TiVo to introduce a new service akin to SlingTV. If they could attach their cloud DVR to it and offer it on a bunch of different devices all at once I bet it would be quite popular.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> I'm sure this is not related: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/comcast-roll-charge-home-internet-154504269.html


My favorite excerpt from that article:


> These trials are based on principles of fairness and flexibility. With 10 percent of our customers consuming half the data that runs over our network, we think its fair that those who use more data pay more and that *those who use less data also have a chance to save some money.* ..."


So Comcast will be lowering the price on their Internet service plans, then, so those using well below their caps will "save some money"?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

To me, a "cloud based DVR" is one of the worst ideas ever. You're dependent upon another third party for a limited amount of storage _*and*_ you're streaming _*everything*_ so you're also dependent on possibly yet another party for access to it and have to worry about data caps and/or throttling.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> So Comcast will be lowering the price on their Internet service plans, then, so those using well below their caps will "save some money"?


The rate cuts, if any, will be just like government "spending" cuts.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> That says they have access to 500+ live streams, not that it's a turn key solution to those streams. I bet the user still needs to have rights to broadcast those streams before they're allowed to use them........


I'm not so sure about that Dan:



> Simplify live linear streaming and online VOD with a comprehensive, *turnkey* solution that allows you to quickly and easily launch, manage and monetize live, online streaming experiences to any device.....





> Unmatched quality and reliability.
> *As a content provider and distributor*, Comcast Wholesale understands the challenges you face when getting your content across multiple devices....





> Partnering with Comcast Wholesales *turnkey* Live Linear Streaming service reduces costs and complexity while providing an integrated solution that eliminates the need for multiple vendors. We can readily serve a range of needs from the largest traditional broadcasters *to emerging content providers,* such as:
> 
> Traditional Broadcasters and Cable Networks
> Sports and Special Event Broadcasters
> Independent TV Networks


Are you sure you actually read those links?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> To me, a "cloud based DVR" is one of the worst ideas ever. You're dependent upon another third party for a limited amount of storage _*and*_ you're streaming _*everything*_ so you're also dependent on possibly yet another party for access to it and have to worry about data caps and/or throttling.


I agree and that may be so, but unfortunately that's where it's headed and I would rather get mine from TiVo if I had my druthers.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> To me, a "cloud based DVR" is one of the worst ideas ever. You're dependent upon another third party for a limited amount of storage _*and*_ you're streaming _*everything*_ so you're also dependent on possibly yet another party for access to it and have to worry about data caps and/or throttling.


Well, traffic associated with use of the provider's cloud DVR service wouldn't count against your data caps, of course.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

krkaufman said:


> Well, traffic associated with use of the provider's cloud DVR service wouldn't count against your data caps, of course.


And in TiVo's and maybe other OTT Startup company's cases that contract with Comcast Wholesale, maybe the data's not counted if you happen to be on a Comcast Network?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> And in TiVo's and maybe other OTT Startup company's cases that contract with Comcast Wholesale, maybe the data's not counted if you happen to be on a Comcast Network?


Heh, seeing that article, we'll all be on Comcast, eventually, whether we know it or not.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

krkaufman said:


> Heh, seeing that article, we'll all be on Comcast, eventually, whether we know it or not.


Yeah, but the FCC helped delay that when they blocked the Comcast/TWC merger.

Maybe we will all be AT&T instead?


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

lpwcomp said:


> Yet there are still people who insist that things would be so much better and cheaper if all content were delivered via streaming and there was no linear TV.


 Till that night when the internet goes down, and it will. At those times a Tivo full of content recorded from OTA or cable comes in handy. The day everything is streamed is the day a lot of angry and confused people come out of the woodwork.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

lpwcomp said:


> Neither cable nor satellite would be as popular as they are if OTA worked better, but for most people OTA sucks.


 OTA lovers: Cable is 500 channels and nothing to watch
Cable lovers: OTA is 500 sub-channels and nothing to watch
They are both wrong (sorta)


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

tenthplanet said:


> Till that night when the internet goes down, and it will. At those times a Tivo full of content recorded from OTA or cable comes in handy. The day everything is streamed is the day a lot of angry and confused people come out of the woodwork.


Read a book, have sex, play cards or a game, call your momma.....lotsa things to do!


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

HarperVision said:


> Read a book, have sex, play cards or a game, call your momma.....lotsa things to do!


I'm not one of the angry or confused  The reason you have Tivo's is to do those other things, better known as "real time activities"


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> Are you sure you actually read those links?


I skimmed them. 

Heck if they handle all the encoding and licensing then pretty much anyone could launch a SlingTV type service. I'm actually surprised Comcast doesn't offer their own standalone service.

If TiVo can actually combine this with it's cloud DVR then that could be a big seller for them. I mean if they had a lineup that included all of the popular channels, including locals, and combined that with unlimited tuners and a few TB of space I could see people paying $50-75/mo easily. Especially if it could be used via inexpensive devices like Roku, Chromecast and FireTV stick.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I skimmed them.  Heck if they handle all the encoding and licensing then pretty much anyone could launch a SlingTV type service. Heck I'm surprised Comcast doesn't offer their own standalone service. If TiVo can actually combine this with it's cloud DVR then that could be a big seller for them. I mean if they had a lineup that included all of the popular channels, including locals, and combined that with unlimited tuners and a few TB of space I could see people paying $50-75/mo easily. Especially if it could be used via inexpensive devices like Roku, Chromecast and FireTV stick.


Yep, that's what shocked me when I read it and why I posted it. I'm surprised there isn't more talk about this!

Edit: And the NCTC thing I posted is very similar. It seems to be the new trend.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I've said many times over the last few years that I believe that the cable that comes into your house is eventually going to turn into a dumb pipe connected to the internet and all video programming will be converted to IP services that can be sold anywhere in the country rather then geographically locked to the cable companies service area. This seems to be the first bit of that prediction coming to fruition. If they can successfully transition their video services to IP then they can convert the cable infrastructure to DOCSIS 3.1 and provide something like 8Gbps per node. That's more then enough for everyone on the node to watch several streams simultaneously. And if the DVR is cloud based then it wont really matter because you'd only need a stream to watch, not record. 

For TiVo this could be a huge deal and might be just what they need to survive long term. Provided they can make it work smoothly and reliably.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> For TiVo this could be a huge deal and might be just what they need to survive long term. Provided they can make it work smoothly and reliably.


I fail to see how this is of any advantage to TiVo. What would distinguish their access device?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm talking about TiVo converting to a cloud based service and stopping the sale of hardware. Essentially there would be a TiVo app that runs on low cost streaming devices like Roku that you call up and can use to watch any of your "recorded" shows using the familiar TiVo UI. It could still link into Netflix, Amazon, etc... just like they do now on the iOS and Android apps, so OnePass would still work, and you'd no longer need to buy a box to sit in your house and deal with setting it up to use a CableCARD. TiVo would act as both the DVR service and your pay TV subscriber all in one. Think of it like Netflix, but with a cloud based DVR rather then a cloud based VOD service.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I'm talking about TiVo converting to a cloud based service and stopping the sale of hardware. Essentially there would be a TiVo app that runs on low cost streaming devices like Roku that you call up and can use to watch any of your "recorded" shows using the familiar TiVo UI. It could still link into Netflix, Amazon, etc... just like they do now on the iOS and Android apps, so OnePass would still work, and you'd no longer need to buy a box to sit in your house and deal with setting it up to use a CableCARD. TiVo would act as both the DVR service and your pay TV subscriber all in one. Think of it like Netflix, but with a cloud based DVR rather then a cloud based VOD service.


And as I said, what would distinguish TiVo from other "cloud based DVR" services?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Their UI and universal search. From what I've read the DVRs that come with SlingTV and Playstation Vue kinda suck, so TiVo could offer a similar service with a better DVR component.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Their UI and universal search. From what I've read the DVRs that come with SlingTV and Playstation Vue kinda suck, so TiVo could offer a similar service with a better DVR component.


They already have those. Going to a pure streaming device would eliminate the other advantages the currently enjoy.

One other thing to consider - given TiVo's record with server reliability, do you _*really*_ want to be totally dependent on them?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> They already have those. Going to a pure streaming device would eliminate the other advantages the currently enjoy. One other thing to consider - given TiVo's record with server reliability, do you really want to be totally dependent on them?


The server is at Comcast Wholesale, NOT at TiVo. That's the point of this thread.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I'm talking about TiVo converting to a cloud based service and stopping the sale of hardware. Essentially there would be a TiVo app that runs on low cost streaming devices like Roku that you call up and can use to watch any of your "recorded" shows using the familiar TiVo UI. It could still link into Netflix, Amazon, etc... just like they do now on the iOS and Android apps, so OnePass would still work, and you'd no longer need to buy a box to sit in your house and deal with setting it up to use a CableCARD. TiVo would act as both the DVR service and your pay TV subscriber all in one. Think of it like Netflix, but with a cloud based DVR rather then a cloud based VOD service.


Kind of like this:

http://www.fiercecable.com/story/ti.../2015-09-11?utm_medium=nl&utm_source=internal


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The issue with the current system is that TiVo is trying to make money on a service that has not perceived value. They sell you a box for hundreds of dollars then expect you to pay out another few hundred for lifetime or pay $15/mo forever to make it work. A lot of people don't like that which is why TiVo's retail subscriber numbers suck. 

With a service like this they could bundle the content and the DVR into a single fee. This is how MSOs sell DVRs, by making them "free" with your service package. If the fee for the TiVo could service was less then what the typical user pays for cable and includes DVR service then I think it would be a big seller. Especially among the cord cutting crowd. 

As for reliability... it sounds like that's really all on Comcast, not TiVo, to take care of. It sounds like they host the whole thing and just take a cut.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> Kind of like this:
> 
> http://www.fiercecable.com/story/ti.../2015-09-11?utm_medium=nl&utm_source=internal


That sounds more like a paired down version of their software running on MSO supplied DTAs. Basically a TiVo UI for a basic cable box.

I'm talking about something more akin to SlingTV but with a TiVo UI. Not special hardware required because everything is handled via an app running on some sort of cheap streaming box, like a Roku.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> The server is at Comcast Wholesale, NOT at TiVo. That's the point of this thread.


And their support for third party is going to be so much better than it is today.

Besides, while that may be what the thread is about, I don't believe that is solely what Dan is talking about. There is nothing in the Comcast announcement about "a cloud based DVR", merely access to multiple streaming services. I actually don't understand of what use a DVR would be if everything is streaming.

Another thing - Who owns the "dumb pipe" from your home to wherever?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The streams are still live. You need a DVR if you want to record them. They're not VOD. They're talking about the ability to capture network feeds and transcode them to something that is internet friendly. 

I assume the "dumb pipe" is owned by your local cable provider or DSL provider. AFAIK every cable provider offers an internet only service.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> The streams are still live. You need a DVR if you want to record them. They're not VOD. They're talking about the ability to capture network feeds and transcode them to something that is internet friendly.
> 
> I assume the "dumb pipe" is owned by your local cable provider or DSL provider. AFAIK every cable provider offers an internet only service.


And right now, there are two pipes available to me - AT&T/U-verse and Comcast. I have U-verse for Internet and Comcast for TV. Good thing too as my cable was out for a week a while back but I still had Internet access.

Your Internet access is already a "dumb pipe". You just propose to add "live" TV and recordings in your cloud to that mix. Who owns the cloud server?

Again, TiVo already has a superior UI and integration and has very poor market penetration. Why do you think that situation would improve if they lose their other advantages?

On what evidence do you base your assumption that data caps will not apply when streaming from your cloud?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I did not say data caps wouldn't apply. I'm sure they would in the areas that have them. But most don't or have them set really high to the point that unless you're constantly hosting torrents it's not a problem. 

My reasin for thinking this would be a good idea is that people wouldn't need to lay out hundreds of dollars for equipement to get the TiVo experience. It would just be a flat monthly fee for both the "DVR" and the content, presumably lower then what they're already paying for just cable. (ala SlingTV or Playstation Vue)


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I don't currently have a data cap. I was basing my concern on the announced 300GB Comcast cap. High quality HD video from Netflix is "up to" 3GB/hour, so that's 100 hours or <3.5 hours a day. Even if the average is half that, that's still less than 7 hours a day. The rate for UHD is 7GB/hr.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

I'm thinking maybe if you have Comcast for your internet "dumb pipe" then if you sign up for a service being hosted by this new end to end turnkey solution known as Comcast Wholesale, then that data wouldn't be counted towards your cap. All other providers of course it would, so that's incentive to use Comcast, at least in areas that have that choice.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Their UI and universal search. From what I've read the DVRs that come with SlingTV and Playstation Vue kinda suck, so TiVo could offer a similar service with a better DVR component.


 Sling has no dvr, some channels let you go back for up to 3 days, but come day 4 the older programs are gone.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> The issue with the current system is that TiVo is trying to make money on a service that has not perceived value. They sell you a box for hundreds of dollars then expect you to pay out another few hundred for lifetime or pay $15/mo forever to make it work. A lot of people don't like that which is why TiVo's retail subscriber numbers suck.
> 
> With a service like this they could bundle the content and the DVR into a single fee. This is how MSOs sell DVRs, by making them "free" with your service package. If the fee for the TiVo could service was less then what the typical user pays for cable and includes DVR service then I think it would be a big seller. Especially among the cord cutting crowd.
> 
> As for reliability... it sounds like that's really all on Comcast, not TiVo, to take care of. It sounds like they host the whole thing and just take a cut.


If TiVo becomes the provider and there's still a DVR for recording the live streams, that's a solid combination - but once someone offers a full on-demand service for all the streams ... then what?

And one thing we can't ignore is the ability of our ISP's to guarantee always having enough bandwidth available to deliver their own TV programming.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

The problem with thinking that the TiVo UI will be a selling point in this situation is that when you are using a streaming service such as Netflix, it's _*their*_ UI in play. Very annoying.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Tivo is going to get killed in the streaming-only world. 

I just don't see what they have to offer that would eclipse what Apple, Google MS, and Amazon can do. All those companies are way way better financed as well.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> Tivo is going to get killed in the streaming-only world. I just don't see what they have to offer that would eclipse what Apple, Google MS, and Amazon can do. All those companies are way way better financed as well.


Why is no one getting this??? It's NOT TiVo or any other small MSO at its core, it's *COMCAST* WHOLESALE!!!

Does no one read links anymore?!?!?!


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I don't know what TiVo is going to do but buying a streaming service package from Comcast Wholesale and selling it to customers doesn't sound like a profitable business to me. If it can make selling TiVo DVRs more attractive by having the streaming services available, maybe it can help a little. As far as Comcast offering no data plan usage for Comcast internet service plans when Comcast customers use the service, that also sounds very unlikely.

Comcast is rolling out 300GB caps with a $30 premium for unlimited data usage in some cities, probably a test to see how it goes over. No cap doesn't seem likely to me for the long term and plans like this seem likely, although Comcast won't call the plan a cap, go over 300GB and pay more, not get shut off.

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/comcast-is-testing-a-new-way-for-customers-to-avoid-data-caps-cm519403

That sure doesn't fit with offering no data usage for this streaming package, likely around 200GB/month by itself on average for users.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

HarperVision said:


> Why is no one getting this??? It's NOT TiVo or any other small MSO at its core, it's *COMCAST* WHOLESALE!!!


And hence what? Verizon is going to happily let them flood their network with cheap streaming TV service at the expense of their own while Comcast charges their own customers per the gigabyte?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

jonw747 said:


> And hence what? Verizon is going to happily let them flood their network with cheap streaming TV service at the expense of their own while Comcast charges their own customers per the gigabyte?


SlingTV and Playstation Vue are doing it. Apple may soon be following suit. It's the way of the world and where it's going. I don't particularly like it either, but it is what it is.

I'm sure the local MSO you're connected to (dumb pipe as Dan calls it, to me correctly) will feel the impact at first, then charge for data, then eventually go full IP streaming themselves and offer a better deal, at least when on their network.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I don't know what TiVo is going to do but buying a streaming service package from Comcast Wholesale and selling it to customers doesn't sound like a profitable business to me. If it can make selling TiVo DVRs more attractive by having the streaming services available, maybe it can help a little. As far as Comcast offering no data plan usage for Comcast internet service plans when Comcast customers use the service, that also sounds very unlikely. Comcast is rolling out 300GB caps with a $30 premium for unlimited data usage in some cities, probably a test to see how it goes over. No cap doesn't seem likely to me for the long term and plans like this seem likely, although Comcast won't call the plan a cap, go over 300GB and pay more, not get shut off. http://www.nasdaq.com/article/comcast-is-testing-a-new-way-for-customers-to-avoid-data-caps-cm519403 That sure doesn't fit with offering no data usage for this streaming package, likely around 200GB/month by itself on average for users.


I tend to agree and think that if they actually do something like that, it may very well be through the NCTC instead since it was announced about their new deal to offer hardware and thin clients to them and their members, as I reported elsewhere.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Right now TiVo is losing money selling boxes and then trying to make it back, plus some profit, selling the service. If they could convert to a pure cloud based service which budles the content and the DVR features all for a flat monthly fee that's competitive with cable then it could be very profitable for them. They no longer have to invest in R&D for hardware and then subsidize it for users. And by bundling both the content and the DVR features into a single package, with no big initial outlay, they could create a better value proposition for users. 

Just to be clear I don't think they're going to drop hardware and convert to cloud DVR overnight, but this could be something that they could transition to long term. Eventually local DVRs are going to go away. TiVo needs to position themselves in the OTT apps space if they want to survive long term. The only other thing they can do is try to compete with hardware devices like Roku or AppleTV, which seems like a losing proposition to me.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Right now TiVo is losing money selling boxes and then trying to make it back, plus some profit, selling the service. If they could convert to a pure cloud based service which budles the content and the DVR features all for a flat monthly fee that's competitive with cable then it could be very profitable for them. They no longer have to invest in R&D for hardware and then subsidize it for users. And by bundling both the content and the DVR features into a single package, with no big initial outlay, they could create a better value proposition for users. Just to be clear I don't think they're going to drop hardware and convert to cloud DVR overnight, but this could be something that they could transition to long term. Eventually local DVRs are going to go away. TiVo needs to position themselves in the OTT apps space if they want to survive long term. The only other thing they can do is try to compete with hardware devices like Roku or AppleTV, which seems like a losing proposition to me.


Agree, but at least TiVo would have something those boxes don't, live tv with DVR. At least until when/if Apple gets into the game. Chances are high that Apple will be exclusive and expensive, as they always are.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> Why is no one getting this??? It's NOT TiVo or any other small MSO at its core, it's *COMCAST* WHOLESALE!!!
> 
> Does no one read links anymore?!?!?!


 Comcast is just doing what MLB does for HBO. Who said the streaming solutions provider was Tivo?

There's also a conversation going on about Tivo's place in the streaming world. I don't think Tivo can compete making a streaming box if streaming is how video is delivered to the consumer in the future.

I don't think they can compete by offering their own OTT tv package either. I really am not sure where Tivo would go if we lived in a streaming only world. I guess they have a place as an OTA DVR/streaming box product company. I don't know anything about the overseas markets they are in.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> There's also a conversation going on about Tivo's place in the streaming world.


Ummm, yeah, with them using Comcast Wholesale as the streaming content service provider. That's the whole reason I started this thread and named it "Any chance of this being on TiVo".


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> Ummm, yeah, with them using Comcast Wholesale as the streaming content service provider. That's the whole reason I started this thread and named it "Any chance of this being on TiVo".


There's also a conversation about Tivo as a streaming box.

And probably because your post is just about Comcast getting into the same business as what MLB does for HBO and has little to do with Tivo from what I can see other than what happens to Tivo if everything goes streaming.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> There's also a conversation about Tivo as a streaming box.
> 
> And probably because your post is just about Comcast getting into the same business as what MLB does for HBO and has little to do with Tivo from what I can see other than what happens to Tivo if everything goes streaming.


You're still not getting it. Comcast Wholesale is MUCH more than what MLB is for HBO. Read ALL the links posted that goes over exactly what Comcast Wholesale is. Basically they are a content aggregator that can bring in all different program sources including Over 500+ of the broadcast and cable type networks.

One of it's services is basically a "one stop shop" for places like small MSOs, TIVo, etc that want an end to end turnkey solution for a streaming OTT cable TV type solution, a la' Vue and SlingTV.

Comcast Wholesale would BE TiVo's headend, Supplying all they need as far as program sources to start their very own streaming TV service like Vue and SlingTV. In other words, TiVo doesn't have to donut on their own and make any deals with content providers or build out their own hardware server headends to host the steaming programming.

So the "conversation about TiVo as a streaming box" *IS* this service from Comcast Wholesale. All tivo would have to do is adapt their thin client to support this service to work with and THROUGH Comcast Wholesale.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

HarperVision said:


> So the "conversation about TiVo as a streaming box" *IS* this service from Comcast Wholesale. All tivo would have to do is adapt their thin client to support this service to work with and THROUGH Comcast Wholesale.


It might not matter. I don't care very much where the channels come from, the two main things I want are to always use the TiVo UI, and to have *all* of the TiVo UI features available for streamed content as well as recorded content. What that mostly means to me is that I want to skip the damned commercials. Give me VOD that lets me skip commercials and I'd be pretty happy.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> You're still not getting it. Comcast Wholesale is MUCH more than what MLB is for HBO. Read ALL the links posted that goes over exactly what Comcast Wholesale is. Basically they are a content aggregator that can bring in all different program sources including Over 500+ of the broadcast and cable type networks.
> 
> One of it's services is basically a "one stop shop" for places like small MSOs, TIVo, etc that want an end to end turnkey solution for a streaming OTT cable TV type solution, a la' Vue and SlingTV.
> 
> ...


So as was said, what does Tivo bring to the table that won't get them killed in the streaming world? Nothing as far as I can tell.

And I don't think Comcast's Wholesale business is what you think it is. You highlighted "independent startups" in your quote. But i think that's taken out of context.

If you read the entire sentence again it reads, _"Tishgart said early clients for the service *include programmers ranging from* big cable networks *to* independent start-ups."_ In other words, the independent startups in this case are programmers.

I see nothing about Comcast reselling other people's content to whoever wants to become a OTT TV provider. The talk about the 500+ existing feeds from broadcasters seems more applicable to smaller MSOs who already have agreements/relationships in place with content providers but don't have the infrastructure nor resources to stream that content to devices.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

snerd said:


> It might not matter. I don't care very much where the channels come from, the two main things I want are to always use the TiVo UI, and to have *all* of the TiVo UI features available for streamed content as well as recorded content. What that mostly means to me is that I want to skip the damned commercials. Give me VOD that lets me skip commercials and I'd be pretty happy.


And of course we want that without interruptions or breaks in service or extra charges due to data usage.

I would think most TiVo owners are also interested in video quality as well and would find down-rezzing to avoid congestion to be unacceptable.

But I've got no problem with TiVo offering a service like this, I just see a number of challenges they'll have to overcome including the fact that the networks don't want their commercials to be skipped. PlayOn+PlayLater has shown that it's viable to record and skip commercials in streaming video, but their channels are constantly breaking and requiring updates, because the providers don't approve of or support it.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> So as was said, what does Tivo bring to the table that won't get them killed in the streaming world? Nothing as far as I can tell. And I don't think Comcast's Wholesale business is what you think it is. You highlighted "independent startups" in your quote. But i think that's taken out of context. If you read the entire sentence again it reads, "Tishgart said early clients for the service include programmers ranging from big cable networks to independent start-ups." In other words, the independent startups in this case are programmers. I see nothing about Comcast reselling other people's content to whoever wants to become a OTT TV provider. The talk about the 500+ existing feeds from broadcasters seems more applicable to smaller MSOs who already have agreements/relationships in place with content providers but don't have the infrastructure nor resources to stream that content to devices.


idk, I guess we are each reading it and interpreting it differently? I'll have to read it again and from a fresh perspective and see what pops out at me this time.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

If it is a turnkey solution for anyone to become an OTT provider akin to SlingTV then thus could be something TiVo could use to transition to a cloud based service instead of a hardware platform. However if it still requires deals with all the individual content providers then I think it's a lot less likely as the effort involved in securing all those deals, and paying the various royalities, would probably be too much of a shift from their core business.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> idk, I guess we are each reading it and interpreting it differently? I'll have to read it again and from a fresh perspective and see what pops out at me this time.


Yeah I think so. I'm not saying you couldn't possibly be correct. But I'm not really sensing that this is for anyone to just slap their name on it and suddenly they are a cabletv ott provider. I think there is some wording that says otherwise.

Another example, is you highlighted "500+ existing feeds from broadcasters" in bold in the quote in Italics below. But I think that may be out of context as well because that part references the TV Everywhere platform which I think is a Cable industry branding of some sort. That to me says small MSO.

_"Comcast Wholesale's Live Linear Streaming solution provides *all* of the service components and features *you need* to *launch* and evolve your full multiplatform lineup of advanced *TV Everywhere*, including:

Easy ingest of the source video feed

500+ existing feeds from broadcasters

Global ingest of new feeds via satellite, direct fiber, or over IP

Lossless mezzanine-quality video and audio"_


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

A streaming service without ads like Netflix is OK but still not the same UI response of a recorded show on a TiVo. Once you get to streaming with ads the game is over, if the stream can't be recorded so as to FF through the ADs your back to the time before VCRs with the only advantage of time shifting. At this point I could not bring myself to force watch any ads, just to watch a program, also I like to FF through news that I have no interest in or I have already seen on another network., (once you have seen the fire destruction in CA and a few burnt out homes I (from CT) don't need to spend time see any more of that).
TiVo, as a streaming only unit, has no value to me.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> If it is a turnkey solution for anyone to become an OTT provider akin to SlingTV then thus could be something TiVo could use to transition to a cloud based service instead of a hardware platform. However if it still requires deals with all the individual content providers then I think it's a lot less likely as the effort involved in securing all those deals, and paying the various royalities, would probably be too much of a shift from their core business.


I totally agree with this statement. :up:


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

They're already testing a cloud DVR in Europe:

*Cloud DVRs: Another check that pay TV seems unable to cash*



> _......But, despite the fact that cloud DVR technology is relatively straightforward, cloud DVRs are not widely offered by pay-TV operators in the United States. Indeed, TiVo two years ago announced cloud DVR capabilities in the set-top product it sells to the nation's smaller cable operators -- but the company still hasn't deployed the offering commercially. Jeff Klugman, EVP and general manager of products and revenue, said *TiVo is testing its cloud DVR services with a large European operator*, but he declined to say when the company would bring the product to market......_


For you lessd: 


> ...Finally, will operators be able to offer what is arguably one of the best features of a DVR -- the ability to skip commercials? Again, that depends on the operator's technical prowess and content providers' licensing provisions.
> 
> What's noteworthy about cloud DVRs is that they offer a range of advantages to operators. After all, with a cloud-based service, operators don't have to sell set-top boxes with large amounts of expensive storage, and users don't have to worry about maxing out their storage options. Operators may also be able to cash in on more lucrative and targeted advertising sales, nevermind the revenues they might obtain through selling cloud DVR access. And cloud DVR services that include multiscreen and out-of-home viewing might help convince users to remain in the pay-TV ecosystem, rather than moving to OTT offerings....


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

*...Finally, will operators be able to offer what is arguably one of the best features of a DVR -- the ability to skip commercials? Again, that depends on the operator's technical prowess and content providers' licensing provisions.
*

If that true than only the lagging UI would be the problem left, and people without fast internet, in my area Comcast has raised the internet speed for* blast *to over 150Mb/s, when I tested it out I got over 175Mb/s.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

> Again, that depends on the operator's technical prowess and *content providers' licensing provisions.*


I read that as "not gonna happen".


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> If it is a turnkey solution for anyone to become an OTT provider akin to SlingTV then thus could be something TiVo could use to transition to a cloud based service instead of a hardware platform. However if it still requires deals with all the individual content providers then I think it's a lot less likely as the effort involved in securing all those deals, and paying the various royalities, would probably be too much of a shift from their core business.


Why would Comcast sell a product to TiVo (or anyone else) that would allow them to compete directly against Comcast, and even undercut Comcast's price? No way that would happen.

Either TiVo would have to have their own distribution rights for all the content, in which case they'll be paying as much, or more, than Comcast does and they wouldn't be able to beat Comcast's pricing. Or Comcast would include distribution rights with the wholesale product, in which case Comcast would be adding a fee on top of what they pay to the content owners. Either way, it would be virtually impossible for TiVo to get content distribution rights and be able to stream content for less than what Comcast can.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

DevdogAZ said:


> Why would Comcast sell a product to TiVo (or anyone else) that would allow them to compete directly against Comcast, and even undercut Comcast's price? No way that would happen.
> 
> Either TiVo would have to have their own distribution rights for all the content, in which case they'll be paying as much, or more, than Comcast does and they wouldn't be able to beat Comcast's pricing. Or Comcast would include distribution rights with the wholesale product, in which case Comcast would be adding a fee on top of what they pay to the content owners. Either way, it would be virtually impossible for TiVo to get content distribution rights and be able to stream content for less than what Comcast can.


Do the TV regulations even permit Comcast to market streaming services outside their designated market?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Why would Comcast sell a product to TiVo (or anyone else) that would allow them to compete directly against Comcast, and even undercut Comcast's price? No way that would happen.
> 
> Either TiVo would have to have their own distribution rights for all the content, in which case they'll be paying as much, or more, than Comcast does and they wouldn't be able to beat Comcast's pricing. Or Comcast would include distribution rights with the wholesale product, in which case Comcast would be adding a fee on top of what they pay to the content owners. Either way, it would be virtually impossible for TiVo to get content distribution rights and be able to stream content for less than what Comcast can.


Why does anyone sell anything wholesale? Because when they account for the lack of support and maintence they have to provide they can still turn a profit. I assume that's the case here. They wouldn't have much of a product to offer if the services they were offering it to couldn't actually compete on price. Plus Comcast is sort of walking on eggshells at this point. They've become so big that they are a ripe target for regulation. Things like this make them seem less monopolistic. Plus all of these types of services still require an internet connection, which they they control in most of the areas they service.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

snerd said:


> It might not matter. I don't care very much where the channels come from, the two main things I want are to always use the TiVo UI, and to have *all* of the TiVo UI features available for streamed content as well as recorded content. What that mostly means to me is that I want to skip the damned commercials. Give me VOD that lets me skip commercials and I'd be pretty happy.


And you're never going to get that, universally speaking. This and other restrictions, such as limited viewing windows, are exactly why the whole industry loves streaming/VOD. They want to take control back from us.

Tivo is doomed in a streaming world, IMO, if the essential ad-skipping ability is taken away even on a limited basis. That's the core feature that makes a DVR superior right now.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> And you're never going to get that, universally speaking. This and other restrictions, such as limited viewing windows, are exactly why the whole industry loves streaming/VOD. They want to take control back from us.
> 
> Tivo is doomed in a streaming world, IMO, if the essential ad-skipping ability is taken away even on a limited basis. That's the core feature that makes a DVR superior right now.


Doomed anyway unless they have some patentable ad skipping tech no one else has.

What is going to make Tivo special in the streaming world? I like my Tivo, but the competition for the Roamio is a cable dvr. That's a pretty low hurdle to clear for Tivo.

What happens when the competition is Apple, Amazon, Google, MS, Sony, etc? That is not going to be good for Tivo from what I see.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo still has experience on their side if they can capitalize on it now before all those other companies jump into the mix. 

One thing they might be able to do to differentiate themselves short term is create a hybrid solution. A box with a modest hard drive that can record OTA but can also access these streaming cable channels seamlessly. One thing sorely missing from these streaming services is local channels. Vue has them in just a few markets and SlingTV doesn't have them at all. If they could seamlessly combine OTA with a core set of streaming channels and OTT apps then they could become the go to solution for cord cutters.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> They're already testing a cloud DVR in Europe:
> 
> *Cloud DVRs: Another check that pay TV seems unable to cash*
> 
> For you lessd:


According to Graymalkin's thread in the HH, he's abandoned TiVo for the Comcast X1 (because it was significantly cheaper) and it uses a cloud DVR setup. He says that the top 100 shows on TV are automatically recorded and available to watch at any time, and so he only has to set up recordings for things that aren't as popular. He seems to be reasonably pleased with the performance.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo still has experience on their side if they can capitalize on it now before all those other companies jump into the mix. One thing they might be able to do to differentiate themselves short term is create a hybrid solution. A box with a modest hard drive that can record OTA but can also access these streaming cable channels seamlessly. One thing sorely missing from these streaming services is local channels. Vue has them in just a few markets and SlingTV doesn't have them at all. If they could seamlessly combine OTA with a core set of streaming channels and OTT apps then they could become the go to solution for cord cutters.


That was my exact thought as well.

Maybe TiVo can work out, as part of their subscription model for streaming channels, that they be allowed to skip over commercials just as they do now with cable/OTA signals, in exchange for small revenue paid back to the content providers? Since they wouldn't have to build in cablecard hardware and it's associated protections and licenses, the ~$13-15/month service fee can be partially used to pay these context providers? Maybe on an "as skipped basis" since it seems TiVo knows everything you do with their darn box anyway through its Ethernet connection. 

Maybe they can do like Hulu and offer two different service fees, one with unskipable commercials and one that is able to skip them for a slightly higher fee?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

DevdogAZ said:


> According to Graymalkin's thread in the HH, he's abandoned TiVo for the Comcast X1 (because it was significantly cheaper) and it uses a cloud DVR setup. He says that the top 100 shows on TV are automatically recorded and available to watch at any time, and so he only has to set up recordings for things that aren't as popular. He seems to be reasonably pleased with the performance.


Sounds interesting, thanks!


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I don't see TiVo ever being able to provide seamless integration with streaming as long as the stream providers control the UI.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> That was my exact thought as well.
> 
> Maybe TiVo can work out, as part of their subscription model for streaming channels, that they be allowed to skip over commercials just as they do now with cable/OTA signals, in exchange for small revenue paid back to the content providers? Since they wouldn't have to build in cablecard hardware and it's associated protections and licenses, the ~$13-15/month service fee can be partially used to pay these context providers? Maybe on an "as skipped basis" since it seems TiVo knows everything you do with their darn box anyway through its Ethernet connection.
> 
> Maybe they can do like Hulu and offer two different service fees, one with unskipable commercials and one that is able to skip them for a slightly higher fee?


I'd hope there would be no restrictions on what can be skipped. I assume TiVo would have the same rights to record content as any other cable provider. There are FCC mandates and supreme court cases that allow it. (Cablevision was sued and found to be allowed to create a cloud DVR, with full functionality, provided that the user explicitly requests the show and each user has a unique copy of the show and it's not just using a reference count to a single file)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> I don't see TiVo ever being able to provide seamless integration with streaming as long as the stream providers control the UI.


With this service they would be the streaming provider.

Comcast is selling them the captured and tanscoded streams, there is no UI attached to it. They could use their own UI to access the streams just like they were coming from a regular tuner. They might even be able to record them to the hard drive just like a normal show.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> With this service they would be the streaming provider.
> 
> Comcast is selling them the captured and tanscoded streams, there is no UI attached to it. They could use their own UI to access the streams just like they were coming from a regular tuner. They might even be able to record them to the hard drive just like a normal show.


Then we're back to data-pipe sizes and caps.

I also see no evidence that this includes existing streaming services like Netflix and Amazon nor access to their libraries.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It wouldn't need direct access to Netflix or Amazon's libraries. In the iOS app if you search for something in the TiVo app that is available on Netflix or Amazon and you click play it launches the appropriate app and jumps directly to the show/episode you selected. Just like it does on the TiVo itself.

If they used a hybrid device that supported OTA and required special hardware then it would be no different then how those services work now on the Roamio/Premiere. If they released some sort of app for devices like Roku, FireTV, etc.. then they could use a technique similar to the iOS app to launch the services respective app automatically and start playing the show you selected. It wouldn't be 100%, and depends on what features are available on each of those platforms, but it would be a way to incorporate those services into a pure app version of TiVo.

Pipe sizes and caps would be a concern, but there are already services that do essentially the same thing (i.e. SlingTV and Vue) and they don't seem to care about caps. They assume the user is aware of any cap they might have imposed on them and will plan their viewing accordingly.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> Then we're back to data-pipe sizes and caps. I also see no evidence that this includes existing streaming services like Netflix and Amazon nor access to their libraries.


Those would still be provided by tivo, just as they are now.

Just think of what's being hypothesized here as the streaming programming from Comcast Wholesale replacing ONLY the linear QAM cable broadcasts from your local cable provider. Everything else on the tivo would remain basically unchanged.

This way they can avoid all the hassles they have with getting TiVos activated to work with all the various providers with Cablecards and tuning adapters, which is bar none their biggest headache and detriment to increased sales, subscriber numbers and profits!

You may also be able to activate and deactivate at will per month, like you can with SlingTV and Vue.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Plus they might be able to offer better packages of channels that are more tuned to what people actually watch rather then cable companies spreading the popular channels across several "tiers" to hike up your bill.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> It wouldn't need direct access to Netflix or Amazon's libraries. In the iOS app if you search for something in the TiVo app that is available on Netflix or Amazon and you click play it launches the appropriate app and jumps directly to the show/episode you selected. Just like it does on the TiVo itself.


One of the problems with this is that once the app is launched you're no longer using the TiVo UI.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> One of the problems with this is that once the app is launched you're no longer using the TiVo UI.


You aren't now either so I don't get your point.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah that's exactly how the OnePass works now. It launches the app and puts you as close to the content you requested as possible. In Netflix they can actually start playing the video. In Amazon I think they drop you on the episode but you have to manually press play. And in YouTube they basically create a search for whatever you were looking for and you have to pick the result that is the video you wanted. It's the best they can do given the tools they have access to. 

No device unifies the UI completely. Even the unified search on the Roku or AppleTV will still have to launch the app associated with the content for you to actually play it. There is no way around that unless OTT services start offering ways to directly access their content somehow. (which I doubt they would do)


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> You aren't now either so I don't get your point.


I know and it annoys me no end. FF and rewind on Netflix are crap. I also miss being able to check other things w/o having to completely exit the app. Heck, I can't even find out what time it is!

My point is that one of the main selling points of TiVo vs. some other access device is its UI. Dan specifically mentioned it earlier in the thread. If you're mostly using another UI, what's the point?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Why would you be mostly using another UI? If TiVo is the provider of the streaming content then there is nothing preventing them from integrating the entire experience directly into the TiVo UI and making streaming from the cloud as seamless as streaming from a TiVo to a Mini. The reason they have to do it the way they do with Netflix, Amazon, etc... is because those are 3rd party apps and they have to work within the confines of the APIs those services provide. If they're in control of the API they can do whatever they want. 

Basically I have two possible scenarios in mind...

1) TiVo offers a hardware solution that melds OTA recording with a cloud DVR that is used to record these streaming channels. When you setup a OnePass it automatically notifies the cloud DVR to record something and the episodes show up in your My Shows just like an OTA recording would. The only difference is that when you watch it it's being streamed from the cloud DVR to the TiVo or Mini rather then playing from the local hard drive. The entire experience is completely seamless to the user and is no different then having cable and using tuners to access it. Accessing content from Netflix, Amazon, etc.. would work exactly as it does now on the Roamio.

2) The entire service is an app and distributed via streaming players like Roku, FireTV, etc... While in the app you have a full TiVo UI with access to all of your cloud based recordings. In this scenario integrating shows from 3rd party services, like Netflix and Amazon, would require them to launch the actual app for that service on the device within the confines of the API the device provides. The experience will likely be a lot less seamless then it is now and you'll likely have to relaunch the TiVo app when you're done. But it's at least a way to maintain some of the existing functionality without the need for a full blown hardware platform of their own. 

I think they will most likely go with #1, at least short term, as it would be an easier transition for them and their customers. Maybe once it's launched they could release apps for other devices and see how they go over. If they work well then maybe they just stop producing hardware and proceed as an OTT service.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't think the content providers are going to allow either option with skipping as it's done today. Some might but there will be plenty of holdouts, and then you're back to limited functionality compared to what you have now.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Do the content providers have a say in the matter? I mean as far as we can tell this is really nothing more then a way to supply transcoded live streams to 3rd parties so that they can create their own OTT apps. As long as TiVo is recording the live streams, at the users request, do the content providers get any say over whether they can allow FFing? I'm pretty sure there are several cable companies that have cloud based DVRs with no restrictions on FFing. They only limit FFing on VOD content, not things you specifically request to record yourself onto the cloud DVR. As long as TiVo isn't specifically archiving the content themselves for use in a VOD type system I think this falls into the fair use category. 

Although I have no idea how these content deals work, so maybe they do need special permission for recording to a cloud DVR like this?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo still has experience on their side if they can capitalize on it now before all those other companies jump into the mix.
> 
> One thing they might be able to do to differentiate themselves short term is create a hybrid solution. A box with a modest hard drive that can record OTA but can also access these streaming cable channels seamlessly. One thing sorely missing from these streaming services is local channels. Vue has them in just a few markets and SlingTV doesn't have them at all. If they could seamlessly combine OTA with a core set of streaming channels and OTT apps then they could become the go to solution for cord cutters.


Except Tivo doesn't have experience on their side. Everyone else has boxes with better streaming capabilities than Tivo's. EVeryone else has better search, betterUIs, more apps, better features, more customers, etc etc.

Tivo is in last place in the streaming world.

And yep a hybrid OTA/streaming box is about the only thing I can see Tivo doing that wouldn't automatically get them killed.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Except Tivo doesn't have experience on their side. Everyone else has boxes with better streaming capabilities than Tivo's. EVeryone else has better search, betterUIs, more apps, better features, more customers, etc etc.
> 
> Tivo is in last place in the streaming world.
> 
> And yep a hybrid OTA/streaming box is about the only thing I can see Tivo doing that wouldn't automatically get them killed.


TiVo has significantly better search and a better UI for the DVR part. Plus they are the only one that unifie streaming and recordings into a single UI. Those other devices are nothing but app walls with a minimal unified search. The only thing I saw in the AppleTV demo that was unique was Siri, and if you've ever tried to use her on a phone/tablet you know she's never quite as useful as the Apple videos make her out to be.

As for the streaming only cloud DVR.... SlingTV doesn't even have a DVR, Vue does but from what I've heard it sucks, and the whole AppleTV streaming TV thing is just a rumor at this point so no one knows if they'll even have a DVR. (I'm betting it's more like SlingTV) So there is an opertuninty here for TiVo, if they are actually working on this and launch soon.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

I wonder if this announcement is connected in any way to Comcast Wholesale? It could also answer the data cap issue.



> _Comcast (NASDAQ: CMCSA) has launched a new unit that will offer business services to large Fortune 1000 business customers in the U.S., *putting them in direct competition with large telcos AT&T (NYSE: T) and Verizon (NYSE: VZ)*.
> 
> While Comcast has been offering business services for a number of years, *what's different about this latest drive is that it will offer services to large businesses in and outside of its network area*, something that it had not traditionally done.
> 
> In order to deliver business services outside of its territory, *Comcast Business has established NNI (network to network interconnection) wholesale agreements with a number of other cable MSOs including Cox Communications, Time Warner Cable (NYSE: TWC), Charter Communications Communications (NASDAQ: CHTR), Cablevision (NYSE: CVC) and Mediacom.*_


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

> Comcast Business has established NNI (network to network interconnection) wholesale agreements with a number of other cable MSOs including Cox Communications, Time Warner Cable (NYSE: TWC), Charter Communications Communications (NASDAQ: CHTR), Cablevision (NYSE: CVC) and Mediacom.


Resistance is futile.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> Resistance is futile.


So when do they change the name to Skynet?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

krkaufman said:


> Resistance is futile.


 (so you DO have a sense of humor! :up: )



lpwcomp said:


> So when do they change the name to Skynet?


I can actually see Comcast being *that* company that causes something like that in the world!


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> (so you DO have a sense of humor! :up: )


My heart leaps with each word of praise.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo has significantly better search and a better UI for the DVR part. Plus they are the only one that unifie streaming and recordings into a single UI. Those other devices are nothing but app walls with a minimal unified search. The only thing I saw in the AppleTV demo that was unique was Siri, and if you've ever tried to use her on a phone/tablet you know she's never quite as useful as the Apple videos make her out to be.
> 
> As for the streaming only cloud DVR.... SlingTV doesn't even have a DVR, Vue does but from what I've heard it sucks, and the whole AppleTV streaming TV thing is just a rumor at this point so no one knows if they'll even have a DVR. (I'm betting it's more like SlingTV) So there is an opertuninty here for TiVo, if they are actually working on this and launch soon.


Significantly better search and UI for the DVR part than who? Other dvrs? That's not the comparison that would be made in a streaming only world.

Tech companies would eat Tivo for breakfast in the streaming world.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> Significantly better search and UI for the DVR part than who? Other dvrs? That's not the comparison that would be made in a streaming only world.
> 
> The tech companies all have better search and UI than Tivo and much much larger pockets and are in more competitive markets to begin with. They will eat Tivo for breakfast.
> 
> ...


But how are they ever going to get bigger, if they don't think big??? If they stay with your defeatist logic then they will always just be a small niche' company.

Maybe they want MORE, did you ever think of that?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> But how are they ever going to get bigger, if they don't think big??? If they stay with your defeatist logic then they will always just be a small niche' company.
> 
> Maybe they want MORE, did you ever think of that?


Here's hoping they don't pull a Netflix and abruptly stop doing DVRs in favor of OTT streaming only.

As Dan's mentioned, maybe the shift in processor is a sign that TiVo recognizes that they have to do a much better job of OTT app development and integration.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> But how are they ever going to get bigger, if they don't think big??? If they stay with your defeatist logic then they will always just be a small niche' company.
> 
> Maybe they want MORE, did you ever think of that?


It's called being realistic.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> It's called being realistic.


Last I checked and as far as I know, Apple and Amazon started in people's garages. How is THAT for being "realistic"?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> Last I checked and as far as I know, Apple and Amazon started in people's garages. How is THAT for being "realistic"?


Yep and people win the lottery too. 

We've seen Tivo's app. We've seen them rest on their UI aka laurels. They are still sporting an SD UI for criminy sakes. They've never had great apps on their system.

Yet they are going to suddenly change and outdo these tech companies at their own game? Tech companies that have hundreds of billions of dollars, many times the expertise and already have better tech in cloud and streaming and hardware and search.

And this isn't a startup case. Tivo's startup days were 20 years ago. They brought a product to the market no one had thought of.

The streaming world really isn't going to bring anything revolutionary. We know what's coming. It's already here in the form of Netflix and streaming boxes like a Roku or Fire box or ATV.

The only thing we're waiting for is the content to move to a more open platform.

There's always a chance, but ... it would have be in the form of some patentable tech that does something everyone didn't know they wanted.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> Yep and people win the lottery too.
> 
> *We've seen Tivo's app. We've seen them rest on their UI aka laurels. They are still sporting an SD UI for criminy sakes. They've never had great apps on their system.
> 
> ...


That's by chance, not working hard and anticipating potential clients' wants and needs. 

*EDIT: Dang TripleX, when did you add all this extra crud to your post? *


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Significantly better search and UI for the DVR part than who? Other dvrs? That's not the comparison that would be made in a streaming only world.
> 
> Tech companies would eat Tivo for breakfast in the streaming world.


Like who? Google tried content aggregation with Google TV and failed. All the other devices out there are basically UI wrappers around other people's apps. TiVo does something completely different. With OnePass they meld streaming and recorded content into a single UI. The transition for playback isn't perfect, but they do the best they can with the APIs provided by the various apps. All the other streaming devices out there are just fancy app launchers. A few kind of have a unified search, but they don't work nearly as well as TiVo. And none have a way of unifying pay TV and streaming TV into a single UI like TiVo does.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Yep and people win the lottery too.
> 
> We've seen Tivo's app. We've seen them rest on their UI aka laurels. They are still sporting an SD UI for criminy sakes. They've never had great apps on their system.
> 
> ...


There are too many hands in the cookie jar for anyone to ever create a cohesive experience across all the various OTT providers. If anything we're likely to see more fracturing as individual channels split off from aggregators like Hulu and try to launch their own channel specific services. There is no way any company can do better then what TiVo's already done unless they can somehow convince all these services to allow them direct access to the content, completely bypassing their apps and UIs. And I just don't see that happening.

While the individual app experience on TiVo isn't the best out there, they have far and away the best way of combining all those services, and linear TV, into a single UI.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Like who? Google tried content aggregation with Google TV and failed. All the other devices out there are basically UI wrappers around other people's apps. TiVo does something completely different. With OnePass they meld streaming and recorded content into a single UI. *The transition for playback isn't perfect, but they do the best they can with the APIs provided by the various apps.* All the other streaming devices out there are just fancy app launchers. A few kind of have a unified search, but they don't work nearly as well as TiVo. And none have a way of unifying pay TV and streaming TV into a single UI like TiVo does.


Is the issue that TiVo doesn't have access to the proper info from the various apps on the TiVo boxes? I always assumed it was the opposite. That Netflix and Amazon built their own apps to be used on the TiVo box, and because the TiVo user base isn't big enough, they didn't put a lot of effort into optimizing the apps for this platform.

What I would like to see is TiVo make the API for their playback UI available to third-party apps, and then make it mandatory that the third-party apps use the TiVo playback UI rather than their own convoluted mess.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> What I would like to see is TiVo make the API for their playback UI available to third-party apps, and then make it mandatory that the third-party apps use the TiVo playback UI rather than their own convoluted mess.


That UI consistency *would* be great, but TiVo, as you mentioned, lacks the hand for such a mandate.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I think part of the problem is that Netflix et al, and a lot of users want a consistent cross-platform UI.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

What would be nice and is very slightly more likely is for Netflix to make *their* API available.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> What would be nice and is very slightly more likely is for Netflix to make their API available.


What good would that do? Netflix' UI sucks. That's why people would love to have TiVo's UI work in the streaming apps.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> What good would that do? Netflix' UI sucks. That's why people would love to have TiVo's UI work in the streaming apps.


I'm talking about their access API. So instead of them building an app that runs on TiVo, TiVo would build an app that accesses Netflix with the TiVo UI.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Like who? Google tried content aggregation with Google TV and failed. All the other devices out there are basically UI wrappers around other people's apps. TiVo does something completely different. With OnePass they meld streaming and recorded content into a single UI. The transition for playback isn't perfect, but they do the best they can with the APIs provided by the various apps. All the other streaming devices out there are just fancy app launchers. A few kind of have a unified search, but they don't work nearly as well as TiVo. And none have a way of unifying pay TV and streaming TV into a single UI like TiVo does.


YOu must not have used a computer or phone? or the internets? Or shopped on Amazon then?

All those things have robust search capabilities.

IF you believe Tivo has better technology in that department then you may want to call the companies behind those products and let them know.

Yes obviously Tivo is only retail product (afaik) combining streaming with tuners, but pretty obvious too that there are reasons that no one else is doing that and they have nothing to do with technology or resources or expertise.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> There are too many hands in the cookie jar for anyone to ever create a cohesive experience across all the various OTT providers. If anything we're likely to see more fracturing as individual channels split off from aggregators like Hulu and try to launch their own channel specific services. There is no way any company can do better then what TiVo's already done unless they can somehow convince all these services to allow them direct access to the content, completely bypassing their apps and UIs. And I just don't see that happening.
> 
> While the individual app experience on TiVo isn't the best out there, they have far and away the best way of combining all those services, and linear TV, into a single UI.


Nonsense. Apple has a new ATV coming out that can search across apps. Searching for TV content is trivial for a MS, Google, Amazon or Apple. They already do more robust search queries.

And we're not talking about a hybrid world. We're talking about a streaming world. The big 4 tech companies don't want to make a hybrid machine because there is no money to be made. CAse in point - Tivo.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> That's by chance, not working hard and anticipating potential clients' wants and needs.


Yep there is a remote possibility that Tivo could become a player just like there is a remote possibility you will win the lottery.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Nonsense. Apple has a new ATV coming out that can search across apps. Searching for TV content is trivial for a MS, Google, Amazon or Apple. They already do more robust search queries.
> 
> And we're not talking about a hybrid world. We're talking about a streaming world. The big 4 tech companies don't want to make a hybrid machine because there is no money to be made. CAse in point - Tivo.


I'm not necessarily talking about a hybrid "machine" but a hybrid service. We're talking about a potential cloud based DVR that can essentially run as an app on devices like Roku and AppleTV. What's unique to TiVo is that their search can meld recorded content with content available on other OTT services. It not only melds search, but with OnePass it melds individual episodes with launch points to start playing the specific episode you want automatically. The unified search on other devices doesn't do anything like that. Maybe they could, but they don't.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

You do realize this is all 100% speculation right. We're taking a press release from Comcast and dreaming up ways that TiVo could use the service they're offering. There is zero indication that TiVo is even considering this, so we're arguing over something that probably isn't ever going to happen.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> I'm not necessarily talking about a hybrid "machine" but a hybrid service. We're talking about a potential cloud based DVR that can essentially run as an app on devices like Roku and AppleTV. What's unique to TiVo is that their search can meld recorded content with content available on other OTT services. It not only melds search, but with OnePass it melds individual episodes with launch points to start playing the specific episode you want automatically. The unified search on other devices doesn't do anything like that. Maybe they could, but they don't.


Yeah but in a streaming world we won't have recorded content. And hence Tivo gets killed.

And of course the tech companies don't meld recorded content with streaming content. They don't make dvrs.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> You do realize this is all 100% speculation right. We're taking a press release from Comcast and dreaming up ways that TiVo could use the service they're offering. There is zero indication that TiVo is even considering this, so we're arguing over something that probably isn't ever going to happen.


Except I'm making a larger point that whether or not Tivo becomes a OTT video provider and/or tries to become a streaming box, they will get killed by the tech companies.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

If TiVo gets out of the home DVR business and goes into streaming only without any DVR recording their business as we know is gone, Joe Sixpack may know about DVR time shifting and Netflix streaming, but most smart TV and Blu Ray players have streaming built in, TiVo can make some streaming more convenient, but nobody going to purchase a TiVo mainly for streaming.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Again I'm not talking about them creating a streaming box or a streaming service akin to Netflix or Hulu. I'm talking about them launching a streaming service akin to SlingTV or Playstation Vue. The channels would still be live, they would just be streamed over the internet instead of via QAM or DSS. And to go along with the service I was suggesting they use their cloud DVR which instead of recording selected programs to a local hard drive would store them on a server somewhere and stream them to you on demand using the familiar TiVo UI as an app that runs on devices like Roku, FireTV, etc.... As a potential alternative, and to appeal to a greater number of users, I suggested they could create a small local DVR to record OTA channels, and then integrate it seamlessly with the above service so that the user could access both locally recorded OTA content and content recorded on the cloud DVR from TiVo's linear streaming service interchangeably. If said box could also access other OTT apps like the existing Roamio that's just icing on the cake. I think that if they could keep the cost of the hardware low (~$50), the cost of the service was competitive ($40-60/mo) and it included all the most popular cable channels then TiVo could actually do better then Dish or Sony in this arena. (they could also app only versions of the service on other devices that didn't include the local channels)

What's the alternative really? Eventually DVRs are going to go away. They can continue to claw their way into the MSO business, but eventually they're going to convert to the same type of IP based service with cloud DVR so that's a short term plan. For TiVo to succeed long term they really need something like this. If not their own service then they need to partner with someone planning to launch a similar service and make TiVo software the platform it runs on. Otherwise they're going to wither and die as their patents expire and the set top DVR market dries up.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Again I'm not talking about them creating a streaming box or a streaming service akin to Netflix or Hulu. I'm talking about them launching a streaming service akin to SlingTV or Playstation Vue. The channels would still be live, they would just be streamed over the internet instead of via QAM or DSS. And to go along with the service I was suggesting they use their cloud DVR which instead of recording selected programs to a local hard drive would store them on a server somewhere and stream them to you on demand using the familiar TiVo UI as an app that runs on devices like Roku, FireTV, etc.... As a potential alternative, and to appeal to a greater number of users, I suggested they could create a small local DVR to record OTA channels, and then integrate it seamlessly with the above service so that the user could access both locally recorded OTA content and content recorded on the cloud DVR from TiVo's linear streaming service interchangeably. If said box could also access other OTT apps like the existing Roamio that's just icing on the cake. I think that if they could keep the cost of the hardware low (~$50), the cost of the service was competitive ($40-60/mo) and it included all the most popular cable channels then TiVo could actually do better then Dish or Sony in this arena. (they could also app only versions of the service on other devices that didn't include the local channels) What's the alternative really? Eventually DVRs are going to go away. They can continue to claw their way into the MSO business, but eventually they're going to convert to the same type of IP based service with cloud DVR so that's a short term plan. For TiVo to succeed long term they really need something like this. If not their own service then they need to partner with someone planning to launch a similar service and make TiVo software the platform it runs on. Otherwise they're going to wither and die as their patents expire and the set top DVR market dries up.


And here's one BIG FAT ditto! :up:


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Here's a thought.... what if the channels they offered were 4K? Would that make the service more desirable? There is currently no MSO out there offering linear 4k content, so a service like this could actually be a first.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Again I'm not talking about them creating a streaming box or a streaming service akin to Netflix or Hulu. I'm talking about them launching a streaming service akin to SlingTV or Playstation Vue. The channels would still be live, they would just be streamed over the internet instead of via QAM or DSS. And to go along with the service I was suggesting they use their cloud DVR which instead of recording selected programs to a local hard drive would store them on a server somewhere and stream them to you on demand using the familiar TiVo UI as an app that runs on devices like Roku, FireTV, etc.... As a potential alternative, and to appeal to a greater number of users, I suggested they could create a small local DVR to record OTA channels, and then integrate it seamlessly with the above service so that the user could access both locally recorded OTA content and content recorded on the cloud DVR from TiVo's linear streaming service interchangeably. If said box could also access other OTT apps like the existing Roamio that's just icing on the cake. I think that if they could keep the cost of the hardware low (~$50), the cost of the service was competitive ($40-60/mo) and it included all the most popular cable channels then TiVo could actually do better then Dish or Sony in this arena. (they could also app only versions of the service on other devices that didn't include the local channels)
> 
> What's the alternative really? Eventually DVRs are going to go away. They can continue to claw their way into the MSO business, but eventually they're going to convert to the same type of IP based service with cloud DVR so that's a short term plan. For TiVo to succeed long term they really need something like this. If not their own service then they need to partner with someone planning to launch a similar service and make TiVo software the platform it runs on. Otherwise they're going to wither and die as their patents expire and the set top DVR market dries up.


It's a great idea. The only problem is how do they get the rights to the channels and then be able to offer them to customers for less than what other MSOs are charging? Cable and satellite cost what they do because the majority of those costs are going straight to the content providers. TiVo isn't going to be able to obtain distribution licenses for any less that what other cable/satellite providers are paying.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

DVRs exist not just to time shift but to skip commercials. TV programming is funded by sponsored advertising. 

This is going to be a problem until either commercials go away, or they're replaced by product placements in the stream.

On demand streaming is seen as a means to put the proverbial Genie back in the bottle, and I can't see why providers would permit Comcast to willfully distribute their content to a service or device that can strip out or skip their commercials without reimbursement. Not a token fee, either, but something that would make up for the advertising $$$ lost. 

For instance, Big Bang Theory runs for just 30 minutes and earns $6.5 million in advertising with 24 million viewers. That works out to be 27 cents per viewer. Shows that charge less to advertisers do so because they have fewer viewers, so, the cost per viewer isn't necessarily any less.

If a household watches 6 hours of commercial TV a night, then that's worth $3.24 per day, or about $100 per month.

Kind of makes Hulu's extra fee for commercial free viewing look like a great bargain, but I think it shows the stakes involved. If the networks had to settle for a solution which only returned them $4 per month per household, it would be the end of network TV as we know it.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's a great idea. The only problem is how do they get the rights to the channels and then be able to offer them to customers for less than what other MSOs are charging? Cable and satellite cost what they do because the majority of those costs are going straight to the content providers. TiVo isn't going to be able to obtain distribution licenses for any less that what other cable/satellite providers are paying.


Well, they could skip all network channels, assuming the customer would need an OTA antenna for those, and exclude sports channels. That'd keep costs down, and would likely align w/ many cord cutters.

Even if TiVo didn't want to take on the content licensing themselves, hasn't SlingTV been integrated into the Channel Master DVR+? Couldn't TiVo integrate SlingTV into their guide in a similar fashion?

The whole thing does seem a trip down the ill-fated path traveled by Sezmi, though.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's a great idea. The only problem is how do they get the rights to the channels and then be able to offer them to customers for less than what other MSOs are charging? Cable and satellite cost what they do because the majority of those costs are going straight to the content providers. TiVo isn't going to be able to obtain distribution licenses for any less that what other cable/satellite providers are paying.


Well heck, even if the service from TiVo/Comcast Wholsale/NCTC DOES cost as much as a regular cable subscription I think it would still be better to use them because then you cut out all that garbage with these damned cablecards, tuning adapters, clueless CSRs and techs that don't know how and what they are and how to set them up and get them provisioned and activated, etc etc etc......you get the idea. 



krkaufman said:


> Well, they could skip all network channels, assuming the customer would need an OTA antenna for those, *and exclude sports channels.* That'd keep costs down, and would likely align w/ many cord cutters.


NO WAY!!!  :down:





krkaufman said:


> Even if TiVo didn't want to take on the content licensing themselves, hasn't SlingTV been integrated into the Channel Master DVR+? Couldn't TiVo integrate SlingTV into their guide in a similar fashion?
> 
> *The whole thing does seem a trip down the ill-fated path traveled by Sezmi, though*.


Sezwho?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> Sezwho?


Link#1; link#2


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

krkaufman said:


> Link#1; link#2


That was kind of rhetorical and tongue in cheek, but touché haha! :up:


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> that was kind of a rhetorical and tongue in cheek, but touché haha! :up:


Figured, but also figured some future reader might actually be curious.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's a great idea. The only problem is how do they get the rights to the channels and then be able to offer them to customers for less than what other MSOs are charging? Cable and satellite cost what they do because the majority of those costs are going straight to the content providers. TiVo isn't going to be able to obtain distribution licenses for any less that what other cable/satellite providers are paying.


SlingTV starts at $20/mo. Playstation Vue starts at $50/mo and includes the locals. Somehow they managed to do it. Cable costs what it costs because cable companies are greedy monopolies, not because they have to pay content providers.

Although whatever TiVo could charge for this hinges on what Comcast charges for their wholesale service. Unless they want to go at it completely on their own, but I doubt they have the business pull to set something like this on their own.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Again I'm not talking about them creating a streaming box or a streaming service akin to Netflix or Hulu. I'm talking about them launching a streaming service akin to SlingTV or Playstation Vue. The channels would still be live, they would just be streamed over the internet instead of via QAM or DSS. And to go along with the service I was suggesting they use their cloud DVR which instead of recording selected programs to a local hard drive would store them on a server somewhere and stream them to you on demand using the familiar TiVo UI as an app that runs on devices like Roku, FireTV, etc.... As a potential alternative, and to appeal to a greater number of users, I suggested they could create a small local DVR to record OTA channels, and then integrate it seamlessly with the above service so that the user could access both locally recorded OTA content and content recorded on the cloud DVR from TiVo's linear streaming service interchangeably. If said box could also access other OTT apps like the existing Roamio that's just icing on the cake. I think that if they could keep the cost of the hardware low (~$50), the cost of the service was competitive ($40-60/mo) and it included all the most popular cable channels then TiVo could actually do better then Dish or Sony in this arena. (they could also app only versions of the service on other devices that didn't include the local channels)
> 
> What's the alternative really? Eventually DVRs are going to go away. They can continue to claw their way into the MSO business, but eventually they're going to convert to the same type of IP based service with cloud DVR so that's a short term plan. For TiVo to succeed long term they really need something like this. If not their own service then they need to partner with someone planning to launch a similar service and make TiVo software the platform it runs on. Otherwise they're going to wither and die as their patents expire and the set top DVR market dries up.


The alternative is to get bought out and let someone else use your name and assets. 

I haven't seen anything that would indicate that Tivo can become a successful OTT "cable tv" company. It's the same story as streaming boxes. Too many big fish. All the satellite and cable companies plus the tech companies have more money and are in a better position to be successful.

Tivo isn't going to be able to get some miraculous pricing on channels that no one else can get.

I still see Amazon, Google and Apple plus MS as being in a much stronger position to launch an OTT cable service than Tivo by a country mile.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Agreed - Tivo is a slow-to-deliver, generally underperforming company that has been willing to live off of its patents for years instead of (just recently) keeping up the innovation.

Everyone else will own their lunch if/when they switch away from traditional DVRs. They will eventually be bought out and that will be the end of them in all but name.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

History is filled with big companies falling to the wayside while smaller companies take over a business they should have been the front runner in. It's all about timing. Maybe it's to late and TiVo has no chance, but maybe not. Having a lot of money to throw at a problem does not always guarantee victory. There is an opertunity here, albeit small, for TiVo to transform into something else and perhaps avoid their imminent death.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> History is filled with big companies falling to the wayside while smaller companies take over a business they should have been the front runner in. It's all about timing. Maybe it's to late and TiVo has no chance, but maybe not. Having a lot of money to throw at a problem does not always guarantee victory. There is an opertunity here, albeit small, for TiVo to transform into something else and perhaps avoid their imminent death.


Really! Just remember where Apple used to be, especially compared to Microsoft!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

The VCR came to a end and maybe DVRs will also, but for now the DVR has no replacement when it can be used, if I could I would stream my Netflix movies down to my TiVo's hard drive and watch them from my TiVo, even that would be a better experance then how it is now, *and Netflix has no ads to skip*, to me the next step is stream to a DVR of some sort. No technical reason this could not be done (as the Roamio can do it now from one Roamio to another), the reason it my not come to pass is the legal part that I know little about.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> History is filled with big companies falling to the wayside while smaller companies take over a business they should have been the front runner in. It's all about timing. Maybe it's to late and TiVo has no chance, but maybe not. Having a lot of money to throw at a problem does not always guarantee victory. There is an opertunity here, albeit small, for TiVo to transform into something else and perhaps avoid their imminent death.


Yeah but everyone sees streaming coming that's why Tivo has no chance to become an OTT cable tv service.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lessd said:


> The VCR came to a end and maybe DVRs will also, but for now the DVR has no replacement when it can be used, if I could I would stream my Netflix movies down to my TiVo's hard drive and watch them from my TiVo, even that would be a better experance then how it is now, *and Netflix has no ads to skip*, to me the next step is stream to a DVR of some sort. No technical reason this could not be done (as the Roamio can do it now from one Roamio to another), the reason it my not come to pass is the legal part that I know little about.


I was visiting my Niece this summer in Stockton CA and they have some sort of cloud DVR via Comcast there. It worked OK. The FF wasn't quite as fluid as TiVo, but it was way better then Netflix. I think it's good enough for most people, and even us DVR aficionados would get use to it. Heck even with my TiVo FF is a bit of a pain these days. The encoding they're using to compress cable channels more is making the 3x FF almost impossible to use, and even 2x is a bit wonky depending on the channel. So having a single speed that's close to 2x wouldn't be that bad for me.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah but everyone sees streaming coming that's why Tivo has no chance to become an OTT cable tv service.


Perhaps, but TiVo has some name recognition in the space so they might be able to sway some customers over. Plus they have the list of all the Aereo users they could hit up and all us dedicated TiVo users they could convert. That gives them a pretty good starting point.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah but everyone sees streaming coming that's why Tivo has no chance to become an OTT cable tv service.





Dan203 said:


> Perhaps, but TiVo has some name recognition in the space so they might be able to sway some customers over. Plus they have the list of all the Aereo users they could hit up and all us dedicated TiVo users they could convert. That gives them a pretty good starting point.


And no one said it had to be packages of channels that are setup just like a cable plan or even Vue. It could be more a la carte with groups of similar channels like SlingTV is.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The more I think about it the more I think it would be a *really* smart thing for TiVo to do. Which is probably why they'll never do it.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I was visiting my Niece this summer in Stockton CA and they have some sort of cloud DVR via Comcast there. It worked OK. The FF wasn't quite as fluid as TiVo, but it was way better then Netflix. I think it's good enough for most people, and even us DVR aficionados would get use to it. Heck even with my TiVo FF is a bit of a pain these days. The encoding they're using to compress cable channels more is making the 3x FF almost impossible to use, and even 2x is a bit wonky depending on the channel. So having a single speed that's close to 2x wouldn't be that bad for me.


And how much will it cost me a month to replace the 5.5TB of DVR storage I currently have, not to mention the storage available on my computer or even removable storage?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> And how much will it cost me a month to replace the 5.5TB of DVR storage I currently have, not to mention the storage available on my computer or even removable storage?


You know, it really doesn't matter because all that will be moot once this all kicks in fully and the MSOs implement it to take back control......whether we like it or not. 

The only way around it I feel will be hacks, like had to be done with breaking DVD and Blu Ray encryption for "backups".


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

While I think it would be very cool if TiVo could offer some sort of OTT skinny bundle or a la carte streaming solution built into the traditional TiVo interface, I don't see it happening any time soon, regardless of whatever it is that Comcast is offering in that initial press release that kicked off this thread. The main obstacles are pricing and the myriad contract negotiations with content owners, a tough nut that even Apple (the richest company on earth) has yet to crack.

That said, here's a cheerful little article about how cloud DVRs don't appear likely to displace our traditional DVRs anytime soon, which is a very good thing, IMO:
http://www.fiercecable.com/story/cloud-dvrs-another-check-pay-tv-seems-unable-cash/2015-09-13


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> While I think it would be very cool if TiVo could offer some sort of OTT skinny bundle or a la carte streaming solution built into the traditional TiVo interface, I don't see it happening any time soon, regardless of whatever it is that Comcast is offering in that initial press release that kicked off this thread. *The main obstacles are pricing and the myriad contract negotiations with content owners, a tough nut that even Apple (the richest company on earth) has yet to crack.*
> 
> That said, here's a cheerful little article about how cloud DVRs don't appear likely to displace our traditional DVRs anytime soon, which is a very good thing, IMO: http://www.fiercecable.com/story/cloud-dvrs-another-check-pay-tv-seems-unable-cash/2015-09-13


I think we may be assuming that when you sign with Comcast Wholesale the content owner rights are already hashed out between the parties as a turnkey solution, but we very well could be mistaken.

Yes I read that cloud DVR article too. Interesting.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Again I'm not talking about them creating a streaming box or a streaming service akin to Netflix or Hulu. I'm talking about them launching a streaming service akin to SlingTV or Playstation Vue. The channels would still be live, they would just be streamed over the internet instead of via QAM or DSS. And to go along with the service I was suggesting they use their cloud DVR which instead of recording selected programs to a local hard drive would store them on a server somewhere and stream them to you on demand using the familiar TiVo UI as an app that runs on devices like Roku, FireTV, etc.... As a potential alternative, and to appeal to a greater number of users, I suggested they could create a small local DVR to record OTA channels, and then integrate it seamlessly with the above service so that the user could access both locally recorded OTA content and content recorded on the cloud DVR from TiVo's linear streaming service interchangeably. If said box could also access other OTT apps like the existing Roamio that's just icing on the cake. I think that if they could keep the cost of the hardware low (~$50), the cost of the service was competitive ($40-60/mo) and it included all the most popular cable channels then TiVo could actually do better then Dish or Sony in this arena. (they could also app only versions of the service on other devices that didn't include the local channels)
> 
> What's the alternative really? Eventually DVRs are going to go away. They can continue to claw their way into the MSO business, but eventually they're going to convert to the same type of IP based service with cloud DVR so that's a short term plan. For TiVo to succeed long term they really need something like this. If not their own service then they need to partner with someone planning to launch a similar service and make TiVo software the platform it runs on. Otherwise they're going to wither and die as their patents expire and the set top DVR market dries up.


[edit - I see lessd already said some of this; apologies for the smeek]
I assume that TiVo wouldn't be able to get licensing/permission, but one things they could value add to a streaming service would be to enable stream to disk, and even offload that copy (via a move; like they do now with copy protected content) to tablets/phones via their TiVo App (so streamed content could be watched offline; say on a flight).

Streaming is inherently laggy on the controls. But if you could set a One Pass to stream the next couple episodes to your internal drive then you could have fully trickplay with no more lag than regular recorded video. Plus except right after you set up the One Pass you shouldn't hit pauses for buffering, and it could let streaming services work even over unreliable or slow connections.
And that would seem to leverage streaming towards TiVo's core strengths, a DVR with a disk and their unified One Pass UI.

But like I said, there seems little chance that a streaming providers would give permission to semi-persistently buffer multiple episodes to disk.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Jonathan_S said:


> [edit - I see lessd already said some of this; apologies for the smeek]
> I assume that TiVo wouldn't be able to get licensing/permission, but one things they could value add to a streaming service would be to enable stream to disk, and even offload that copy (via a move; like they do now with copy protected content) to tablets/phones via their TiVo App (so streamed content could be watched offline; say on a flight).
> 
> Streaming is inherently laggy on the controls. But if you could set a One Pass to stream the next couple episodes to your internal drive then you could have fully trickplay with no more lag than regular recorded video. Plus except right after you set up the One Pass you shouldn't hit pauses for buffering, and it could let streaming services work even over unreliable or slow connections.
> ...


Streaming doesn't have to be laggy. With fast enough internet speeds and more compressed recordings they could make the experience akin to using a Mini. Most existing streaming services don't put much emphasis on FF because they either don't have commercials or don't allow you to skip them. TiVo could put more effort into optimizing the experience since it's more important to their user experience.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Most existing streaming services don't put much emphasis on FF because they either don't have commercials or don't allow you to skip them. TiVo could put more effort into optimizing the experience since it's more important to their user experience.


True, you usually only have to fast forward if something causes you to lose your place; or you're tired of listening to the opening theme song for the 10th time that day. 

Now _there'd_ be a real opportunity for streaming. Set a skip to tick mark (or next chapter, or logical equivalent) at the end of the opening credits of every episode so they're trivial to perfectly skip over. (Though prior to streaming I was annoyed that DVDs or Blu-rays of TV series often didn't set it so the opening theme was it own chapter to make it easy to skip over them)


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Streaming doesn't have to be laggy. With fast enough internet speeds and more compressed recordings they could make the experience akin to using a Mini. Most existing streaming services don't put much emphasis on FF because they either don't have commercials or don't allow you to skip them. TiVo could put more effort into optimizing the experience since it's more important to their user experience.


There's a lot to be said for downloading streaming video even on a high-speed internet connection just to avoid downrezzing when the service gets slammed.

Have you used a streaming App that approaches Mini speeds given a reasonably fast connection over the internet? I haven't. They seem to buffer too much to try to provide an uninterrupted stream.

Anyway, I'd love to see a streaming device that could both record and combine all the TV provider logins in to one place; but it's not going to happen as long as the providers don't want it to happen.

PlayOn is about the closest to that we've got.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jonw747 said:


> There's a lot to be said for downloading streaming video even on a high-speed internet connection just to avoid downrezzing when the service gets slammed.
> 
> Have you used a streaming App that approaches Mini speeds given a reasonably fast connection over the internet? I haven't. They seem to buffer too much to try to provide an uninterrupted stream.
> 
> ...


The holy grail would be streaming to a DVR hard drive, Sony lost their court case about people recording using a VCR, so maybe a stream to record could pass the same type of court test. I don't know if TiVo would have the stomach and money for such a fight.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

If it's linear I don't see why it couldn't be recorded. As long as they provide copy protection flags the content providers can set just like cable has. This is not the same as recording from Netflix, which has a special VOD license with the content owners. There is actually a special, rarely used, flag for VOD/PPV on cable that causes the recording to start self deleting after 90 minutes. If there were a legal service for recording Netflix it would likely use a similar restriction, which wouldn't be much use.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

How does recording a stream differ from downloading?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> How does recording a stream differ from downloading?


Maybe because it's a linear IP "broadcast" it has to do it in real time, whereas just a download would bring the file down from a certain location and it's all based on how fast the connection speed is as to how long it takes to download (i.e. - not in " real time")


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> How does recording a stream differ from downloading?


By the number of lawyers ringing your doorbell...?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> Maybe because it's a linear IP "broadcast" it has to do it in real time, whereas just a download would bring the file down from a certain location and it's all based on how fast the connection speed is as to how long it takes to download (i.e. - not in " real time")


So functionally, it's a slow download.

I still say the net is going to choke when most people are getting all of their programming this way.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> If it's linear I don't see why it couldn't be recorded. As long as they provide copy protection flags the content providers can set just like cable has. This is not the same as recording from Netflix, which has a special VOD license with the content owners. There is actually a special, rarely used, flag for VOD/PPV on cable that causes the recording to start self deleting after 90 minutes. If there were a legal service for recording Netflix it would likely use a similar restriction, which wouldn't be much use.


PlayOn records streaming video by capturing it as it plays. They are able to do so, because so many streaming services are designed to work with a typical PC, and a typical browser that may not be capable of a strong HDCP solution.

Streaming services, however, are not required to facilitate this. They can change their streaming methods, authentication and copy protection schemes at will and break PlayOn.

So, you're right. If it's linear and out in the open it can be recorded, but if it's appropriately protected, it's illegal to work around those protections. And a major streaming box needs to be based on open standards or co-operative agreements; not on a scheme that may break at any time.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

PlayOn is exploiting a weakness of PC based playback. They're essentially hooking into the graphics system of Windows and doing screen grabs at 24fps. It's a gimmic and the only reason it works is because these services have decided that requiring HDCP, which would prevent it, would be too much if a burden on their paying customers. In the not too distant future HDCP will be so ingrained in everything that it will no longer be an issue for paying customers so they'll enable it and PlayOn will cease to function. PlayOn is equivalent to the "analog hole" that SlingBox exploits. Once it's closed those products will die a quick death.

What I'm talking about here is TiVo essentially becoming an internet based MSO. That would afford them certain privileges granted by the FCC. One of those would be the ability to record linear broadcasts for the purpose of time shifting. If they wanted to forego the cloud DVR part they could still create hardware capable of recording their linear IP feeds locally like TiVos do now with cable. Linear IP is NOT the same as VOD services like Netflix. There are different licenses and regulations that apply to linear IP. This would be more like a traditional cable or DSS subscription, just with a different delivery method. (actually, technologically, it would be very similar to ATT Uverse)


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Signs are pointing more and more to TiVo poising itself to offer an OTT service:

*Verizon's OTT play, go90, at risk as competition moves in, capex becomes an issue, report says*



> Fixed-line content distributors such as Comcast (NASDAQ: CMCSA) and new mobile-first distributors like Verizon's (NYSE: VZ) go90 service all have the potential to be hugely popular OTT services, but only if they can figure out how to turn a profit on the data traffic around that service, a new report from Macquarie Research reveals.
> 
> And even though Verizon is taking a bold step into a new business model with go90, and Dish Network (NASDAQ: DISH) has an early-to-market product with Sling TV, *both are at risk as new OTT competitors enter the market.
> 
> ...


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> What I'm talking about here is TiVo essentially becoming an internet based MSO. That would afford them certain privileges granted by the FCC. One of those would be the ability to record linear broadcasts for the purpose of time shifting. If they wanted to forego the cloud DVR part they could still create hardware capable of recording their linear IP feeds locally like TiVos do now with cable. Linear IP is NOT the same as VOD services like Netflix. There are different licenses and regulations that apply to linear IP. This would be more like a traditional cable or DSS subscription, just with a different delivery method. (actually, technologically, it would be very similar to ATT Uverse)


I was talking about the streaming services that TiVo would like to offer.

As nice as it would be if my TiVo could record say a Netflix or Hulu program, I don't see them co-operating with that.

IMO, the Cloud DVR has a host of other hurdles.


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