# Lost "The Economist" OAD 2-14-08 - *SPOILERS*



## johnmoorejohn (Sep 13, 2001)

I'm on vacation without a PVR, I missed the first 5 minutes of the show, basically everything that happened before the "LOST" intro. Can someone recap that for me?


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

Great, they sent us another Sawyer!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

super dave said:


> Great, they sent us another Sawyer!


Best line of the season!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Harold Penniraneu was in the credits. WTF?


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## bqmeister (May 13, 2006)

Holy Crap.

(I say that a lot after this show)


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Oh my sweet lord, ending of endings.


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

One hell of an episode!


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

My word is - Wow!!!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

You'd think I See Dead People would be seeing dead people all over the village. What with all the people who died there...

It's nice to see everything starting to come together, even as they broaden the Lost world. Even the stuff from the times a lot of people disliked are becoming important.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

If I wasn't confused as hell before, I sure am now.

What a big reveal at the end. I didn't expect that one at all. Not this soon, anyway.

And why was Daniel's "payload" off by half an hour?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

TiVotion said:


> If I wasn't confused as hell before, I sure am now.
> 
> What a big reveal at the end. I didn't expect that one at all. Not this soon, anyway.
> 
> And why was Daniel's "payload" off by half an hour?


A rip in the space time contimum? The island exiting in a different time than the rest of the world?


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## tirofiban (Feb 15, 2003)

bqmeister said:


> Holy Crap.
> 
> (I say that a lot after this show)


Me too, especially after the ending. Wow! What did Sayid say at the end? I couldn't make it out, even after replaying it many times.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Can someone remind me again who we know of the "Oceanic Six"? We've got Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid that I can remember. It seems like I'm missing someone....


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

tirofiban said:


> Me too, especially after the ending. Wow! What did Sayid say at the end? I couldn't make it out, even after replaying it many times.


Yeah, we couldn't figure it out after several rewinds either. My wife finally got it. It was something like "But they know we're after them now," to which Ben responds, "Good."


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

pcguru83 said:


> Can someone remind me again who we know of the "Oceanic Six"? We've got Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid that I can remember. It seems like I'm missing someone....


That's all we know so far.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

pcguru83 said:


> Can someone remind me again who we know of the "Oceanic Six"? We've got Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid that I can remember. It seems like I'm missing someone....


#5 will be revealed next week - that's all we know for now.

...and Guru's right - that's what was said.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Again, harold perrineau was in the opening credits.

He plays Michael. I was bummed when I saw his name in the credits b/c I thought it was a "spoiler" of what was to come. I was half expecting him to be Sayid's boss, or the economist or something. But then he didn't show up.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

tirofiban said:


> Me too, especially after the ending. Wow! What did Sayid say at the end? I couldn't make it out, even after replaying it many times.


Ben says he has another name for Sayid. Sayid says "but they know I'm after them now". Ben says "good".


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Technically, we don't know for sure that Kate is one of the Six. Just because she's off the island doesn't mean she's known as one of the Six (and we aren't even 100% sure that it means the six people the world thinks survived the crash).

I mean, it *probably* means that and she's *probably* one of the Six, but it isn't definitive yet.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

pcguru83 said:


> Yeah, we couldn't figure it out after several rewinds either. My wife finally got it. It was something like "But they know we're after them now," to which Ben responds, "Good."


I always watch Lost with the captions on!

And though I didn't go back and get it verbatim, I loved Sawyer's idea of shooting Ben's foot to the effect of "let's send that little piggy to the market. If that doesn't work, we'll go for the roast beef."


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

I didn't think this episode was nearly as good as last weeks. In it's defense, last weeks was probably one of the best. This weeks was much slower.

I wanted to see the pilots reaction when Jack said, "I can't believe I haven't seen a game in 100 days." I was thinking that maybe more time has passed in the "real world" than the losties are aware of. That would also explain the differing clocks on the payload. We started thinking maybe time passed slower on the island. However, my wife points out that in Jack's flash forward at the end of last season, his ex wife does not seem to have aged any more than he has.


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## CorgiMom28 (Jan 7, 2007)

TiVotion said:


> If I wasn't confused as hell before, I sure am now.


+1


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## Dexyville (Jun 3, 2004)

johnmoorejohn said:


> I'm on vacation without a PVR, I missed the first 5 minutes of the show, basically everything that happened before the "LOST" intro. Can someone recap that for me?


Before the intro:
Sayid covered the dead Naomi with a blanket then brokered the deal with the pilot to rescue Charlotte from Locke and in exchange the pilot would take Sayid to their ship.

Then we flashed forward to Sayid alone playing golf in the Seychelles. A man drives up in a golf cart and makes small talk about how deserted the course is, Sayid says we paid a large sum for that benefit. They wager on a shot, Sayid tells the man that he 'does nothing' for work because he received a large settlement as one of the Oceanic Six. The man looks shocked/scared, waves off the bet after winning then Sayid calls him by name and shoots him dead and walks off the course.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

who was that man Sayid shot in the beginning?


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## Dexyville (Jun 3, 2004)

I assume someone from 'the list'. I couldn't quite catch the name but it sounded like Mr. Avenue.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I think Sayid said, "They're on to me now." to which Ben replied, "Good."

Sucks that we know now that no one is ever gonna kill Ben.

And towards the end there when Sayid talks about his emplyer and his name being on "the list" I had a feeling it would be Ben. Ben apparently likes making lists of people...


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

MitchO said:


> Oh my sweet lord, ending of endings.


Seriously? I saw that coming a mile away. Either Ben was the woman's boss or Sayid's boss. Wasn't a shock at all. Still confusing, but not a shock. Hardly made me say "sweet lord".



TonyTheTiger said:


> #5 will be revealed next week - that's all we know for now.





Spoiler



Wasn't that clearly Kate in the previews getting the "celeb" treatment. I think at this point it's safe to assume Kate IS one of the Six. Since next week's is strongly rumored to be a Kate flash-forward, I think it's safe to assume it's Kate who's "revealed" next week... meaning the preview was slightly "exaggerating" the fact of what new info we would learn... which shouldn't be a surprise.



I also had to turn on close captioning to understand Sayid at the end.

Oh, and I'm reading that the plan is now to show 13 eps now (down from 16) this Spring but only show 7 (down from 8) at first and then take a SIX WEEK break (!!!) before airing the back-six. Boo! (but YAY too I guess)


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> understand Sayid at the end.
> 
> Oh, and I'm reading that the plan is now to show 13 eps now (down from 16) this Spring but only show 7 (down from 8) at first and then take a SIX WEEK break (!!!) before airing the back-six. Boo! (but YAY too I guess)


So they're going to produce a full season (13 episodes) by the end of this season? That would make me at least semi-satisfied with the season4 DVD release.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Jack: No...no, he was a torturer.

Sayid's line is "But, now they know I'm after them".

I wasn't very surprised about anything in this episode. Nearly, everything that happened, I thought was a possibility before it happened. Although, I did expect the chopper to have trouble leaving. But, again, if that had happened I was expecting it. Usually, I don't have time to think what might happen next because either there is so much happening or I am still thinking about what happened previously. Not this week.

Still a good episode. "It moved the plot along".Whatever that means.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

teknikel said:


> Although, I did expect the chopper to have trouble leaving. But, again, if that had happened I was expecting it.


For whatever reason, I was expecting the smoke monster to jump up and grab the helicopter out of the sky.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

very impressed with this episode. I was more expecting Jacob to be the reveal at the end. I thought they would be going more supernatural of a route and Jacob would be more of a figure of the imagination


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Good episode.. DVDerek said it right - last week's was so good it'd be tough to follow it.. so good, but not last-week-caliber.

The payload delay is very intriguing.. At first I thought it meant they were "out of phase" or something, and the payload ended up at the "real world" version of those coordinates, right over empty ocean.. VERY cool to see it arrive after that.

For those who missed the beginning, Sayid reads Naomi's bracelet's inscription:
"N, I'll always be with you. R.G." (it could be R.C., tough to tell)

Did Sayid learn to play golf on the island? Playing on a regular course would seem to be much easier.

Data: Mr. Avellino was the name of the guy Sayid killed on the golf course.

So, did Elsa know from the start that Sayid was going to approach her (and who he was), or did she figure it out after they'd been going out for a while (and tell her boss then)? Did she figure it out when they were getting ready for the opera? When she asked if he had a boss, that was an interesting moment (after watching all the way through)

Wow, they sure do talk alot amongst each other, eh? Sayid finds out that Naomi had a picture of Desmond from going through her backpack.. What the.. how could you hold that info back? Even with her in hiding initially, that's one of the first things I'd have said to Sayid when bringing him into the tent several episodes ago!

They did seem to react to the name Penelope Widmore, didn't they..

Great line:
"The last time you encountered him you put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger. That's not good diplomacy."

Another (after the episode is done):
Hey.. Jarrah.. You think you're going after Charlotte without me? Of course not! Oh, good.

Locke lost a bit of faith at that missing cabin, eh? Maybe that was the main reason they showed us the sand last season - just so we'd recognize that that's where the cabin _used to be_.

When Jack was telling Kate that she should go, and she asked what's to prevent Locke from doing to her what he did to Naomi, and he answered that Sawyer wouldn't let him, it felt like a big game of chess. Sawyer's a rook, covering you - you're safe Kate..

Why is Frank so worried about Daniel talking to Minkowski?

When Daniel turns on the experiment, and asks Regina if she has a lock, she says she's getting his signal pretty clear.. If she'd tried looking for the signal 1 minute _before_ he called her on the radio, would she have heard it then too? (then again, their conversation seems pretty synced up and quick)

Incredible anticipation on that payload shot.. Like in Aliens with the radar gun.

When he compares the clocks, one clock says 02:45:04 as the other says 03:16:22.. (but the scene ends with it reading 03:16:23, containing two of the numbers). So that's a 31:18 second difference.. I'm glad they had a clock inside so we could see that it wasn't just taking some island-directed-roundabout-long-path or something.

What's also interesting is that Daniel seems particularly concerned about this.. "Oh no...".. Not like "wow, holy %#$!", but "Oh, no!".. Then "This is not good".

One of the passports had Ben listed as Dean Moriarty..

When Kate was looking under the bed, and saw footsteps entering the room, I thought "This is just like what Sawyer saw when he was a kid under the bed...", and then it turned out to be Sawyer entering the room.. nice scene..

What was that in Ben's room on the wall - a star chart? It's pretty prominently featured..

Locke says to Sayid that Ben has a man on their ship, Sayid asks who, Ben says "It's a secret", and Sayid follows up with "Forgive me, but the day I start trusting him is the day I would have sold my soul". 

Does Elsa's bracelet have the same inscription? Is she working for the same person as Naomi? Is that the same guy who sent Naomi on her mission (who went to Hurley's asylum), or did someone else give Naomi her bracelet?

Ben's "lists" off of the island seem a little more severe than on the island..

Before Sayid said "The man you're working for is not an economist", I'd been thinking she worked for Alvar Hanso.. but once he said that, in combination with the bracelet, I go back to two paragraphs ago.

I wonder what exactly would happen if Frank didn't follow the exact route back that he took in.. (same question about Michael and Walt on the boat I guess). Maybe the concern is fuel, and he'd be stuck in a snowglobe.. Hey - why isn't Desmond saying stuff like "you know, I had a friggin BOAT, and I sailed straight away from here, and ended up right back here!" to the pilot? It hasn't been that many days, has it?

I half expected to see Vincent in one of the dog cages..

Did anyone see the "enhanced" version of last week's episode that aired at 8pm? Was anything new revealed/clarified?


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Does anyone remember what happen to the "others" last season? I can't remember where they all went.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

ufo4sale said:


> Does anyone remember what happen to the "others" last season? I can't remember where they all went.


They went to the temple


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Again, harold perrineau was in the opening credits.
> 
> He plays Michael. I was bummed when I saw his name in the credits b/c I thought it was a "spoiler" of what was to come. I was half expecting him to be Sayid's boss, or the economist or something. But then he didn't show up.


He's been in the credit for all 3 episodes so far this season.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DVDerek said:


> I wanted to see the pilots reaction when Jack said, "I can't believe I haven't seen a game in 100 days." I was thinking that maybe more time has passed in the "real world" than the losties are aware of.


I was expecting some thing like that too.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

By the way, why didn't Jack ask Sayid where the hell Kate was when he came back with Charlotte?


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## mightyb (Dec 5, 2003)

MickeS said:


> By the way, why didn't Jack ask Sayid where the hell Kate was when he came back with Charlotte?


He did! Sayid told him she was with Sawyer.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

mightyb said:


> He did! Sayid told him she was with Sawyer.


Oh good, it seemed odd that he wouldn't have, thanks. I guess that was the one line of dialog I missed.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> Sucks that we know now that no one is ever gonna kill Ben.


But do we really know that? Really?


jkeegan said:


> Locke says to Sayid that Ben has a man on their ship, Sayid asks who, Ben says "It's a secret", and Sayid follows up with "Forgive me, but the day I start trusting him is the day I would have sold my soul".


As soon as he said that, I knew it was foreshadowing. Although I thought it would be foreshadowing to Sayid trusting Ben on the island, not in the flash forward in this very episode.


MickeS said:


> Oh good, it seemed odd that he wouldn't have, thanks. I guess that was the one line of dialog I missed.


Your mind was clearly expecting it, so you'd already heard it in there and glossed over it when Jack actually said it.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

If you are going to fire a rocket at your little beacon, maybe you should put the beacon farther away from your helicopter. I half expected it to crash into the copter.

Z


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Do little rockets like that really go that fast, by the way? Not taking elevation into account, it must have gone at least 3 km/s or so (seemed like she said "30...25...20" with mayeb 1-2 seconds in between), which is like... uh... really fast.  Roughly 6500 miles/hour, if I have it right. I know rockets can go way faster than that (to leave earth, a rocket would have to go more than 3 times that), but a little rocket like that?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

zordude said:


> If you are going to fire a rocket at your little beacon, maybe you should put the beacon farther away from your helicopter. I half expected it to crash into the copter.
> 
> Z


That'd be a Gilligan move.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

So Sayid found Ben's secret room and off the island he's working for Ben. I wonder if that means that something Sayid saw told him that Ben could be trusted? I wonder if that means that Sayid is the only one that saw the secret room? Locke caught Sayid coming out of there, so I'd think that at least Locke would know about that room now.

Speaking of the secret room, those barracks houses weren't that big. It should have been pretty obvious from the outside that there was an extra hidden room on that house. Surprised none of the other Others know about it. Or do they?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Initially, when Sayid came back w/Charlotte, I thought Sayid had left Miles AND Kate in exchange for Charlotte.. Then I came to think that Kate took Sawyer up on his offer to see how long they could play house (someone should tell Sawyer what happened last time she tried to settle down). I still could see it going the other way though - finding out later that Kate is still being held against her will.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Loved Daniel's science experiments about the island and his warning to the pilot. I'm assuming if they stray from the coordinates they will travel through time somehow? The beacon traveled a straight line and was 30 minutes late. Remember Ben's instructions to Michael about following a specific set of coordinates? Maybe that will explain Walt's aging...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> Loved Daniel's science experiments about the island and his warning to the pilot. I'm assuming if they stray from the coordinates they will travel through time somehow? The beacon traveled a straight line and was 30 minutes late. Remember Ben's instructions to Michael about following a specific set of coordinates? Maybe that will explain Walt's aging...


OH!! Good idea! Maybe Michael will be older too..


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## jonblaze (Jan 10, 2004)

spikedavis said:


> Loved Daniel's science experiments about the island and his warning to the pilot. I'm assuming if they stray from the coordinates they will travel through time somehow? The beacon traveled a straight line and was 30 minutes late. Remember Ben's instructions to Michael about following a specific set of coordinates? Maybe that will explain Walt's aging...


On a related note, might the time differential between the expected and actual payload delivery also explain why Dharma is still making food drops to the island (i.e., because those drops originated at a time predating the "Purge")?


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

What was the name of the girl that Sayid killed? I found it interesting that she said her boss doesn't believe in new technology. Ben once said something along the same lines to Locke when talking about Jacob.


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

Do we know that the Oceanic 6 are known publicly as the only survivors of the crash. Could they be known as a group for something else? Maybe the Oceanic 6 were the only members of the survivors to do something heroic. Kate might be publicly known as a survivor but not a member of the Oceanic 6.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You'd think I See Dead People would be seeing dead people all over the village. What with all the people who died there...


I think there's sort of a time limitation on that. Or really, he can only talk to those who haven't moved on yet.
Remember he was telling the grandson he needed to move on.



DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of the secret room, those barracks houses weren't that big. It should have been pretty obvious from the outside that there was an extra hidden room on that house. Surprised none of the other Others know about it. Or do they?


Well, we know that others have been on and off the Island. It doesn't seem to have been a secret among Ben's group so I don't think they would be surprised for Ben to have a stash.



Barmat said:


> Do we know that the Oceanic 6 are known publicly as the only survivors of the crash. Could they be known as a group for something else? Maybe the Oceanic 6 were the only members of the survivors to do something heroic. Kate might be publicly known as a survivor but not a member of the Oceanic 6.


It's implied when the cop is talking to Hurley about Ana Lucia that they are.

Very interesting episode. It should be obvious by now that the Oceanic 6 had to make Devil's deals to get off the Island. Sayid's seems to be the most severe of them.
(Although I wonder if having to kill would drive Jack to alcohol abuse.)

Oh and now Jack needs to start getting busy with Juliet...


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Also-I'm perplexed as to why Jacob's cabin can get up and move around as it pleases...


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## Uncle Briggs (Sep 11, 2004)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> I always watch Lost with the captions on!


Yeah, I started doing that last year.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Right now, my only question is, what's an expresso? Is that coffee that's made quickly? PERHAPS it's one of Ben's best kept secrets!

(Sayid committed one of my biggest pet peeves.)

Greg


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

mightyb said:


> He did! Sayid told him she was with Sawyer.


Actually, Sayid said only "she decided to stay"- he never mentioned Saywer.


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## bpurcell (Mar 16, 2005)

My educated guess prediction for the next person revealed as a part of the Oceanic 6, either:

1. Kate's significant other that she referenced while meeting Jack at the airport. Could be Sawyer, but no guarantees.

2. Michael. It's possible he's on that ship.

Awesome episode. When Sayid shot that guy at the golf course, I couldn't breathe. Same thing happened when he got shot in the bedroom. When he was at the vet getting fixed up, my assumption was Jack, until I heard the voice.


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

JYoung said:


> It should be obvious by now that the Oceanic 6 had to make Devil's deals to get off the Island. Sayid's seems to be the most severe of them.


And surprisingly, Sayid's *deal* is with Ben, rather than the freighter crowd. 
I found Ben's comments in the last scene the most interesting:

"Need I remind you what they [the freighters] did?"

"You want to protect your friends or not Sayid?"

So... protect them from reproach or from being *hit* targets themselves as a means to silence them?


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

gchance said:


> Right now, my only question is, what's an expresso? Is that coffee that's made quickly? PERHAPS it's one of Ben's best kept secrets!
> 
> (Sayid committed one of my biggest pet peeves.)
> 
> Greg


Give the guy a break, German isn't his first language. 

I'm trying to wrap my head around the time slipping issue with the rocket.

For the last two weeks, I've been expecting the space/time issue to be addressed by one of the boat people mentioning that Oceanic 815 crashed a lot longer ago than the few months we've witnessed on the island.

Last week, I expected Charlotte to ask Claire about not being afraid of getting pregnant on the island (to which, Claire would have said she was already pregnant on the plane, and Charlotte would have said it was impossible because the flight crashed so long ago). This week, I expected the pilot to say something about the Sox having won the Series twice since the plane crashed (especially after Jack said he hadn't seen a game in 100 days). I still think something along those lines is coming, and the rocket seemed to point towards something being out of sync, but I'm just not sure what it means.

The rocket's total flight time, from the time the woman on the boat said it was away, until she said it was at 0 metres was approximately 28 seconds. The time difference between the two clocks was a little over 31 minutes, with the rocket's clock being ahead of the beacon's clock.

Does it mean that 30 seconds in "real time" is the same as 30 minutes on the island? If that's true, and the cast-aways have been on the island for 100 days, that would mean they've been away from the real world for 18 years. Also, in this case, the beacon clock should be ahead of the rocket clock.

It could also mean that the two clocks were synchronized on the boat, so since arriving on the island, the people from the boat have "slipped" 30 minutes, or time is moving slightly slower on the island, and the longer a person is there, the more time will slip. This seems to make more sense, and it's interesting that they're able to communicate across the time gap, but again, I'm not sure what to make of it.


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## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

unicorngoddess said:


> Sucks that we know now that no one is ever gonna kill Ben.





DevdogAZ said:


> But do we really know that? Really?


No, we certainly do not know that. We only know that somehow Ben gets off the island, and most likely against his will. I'm curious what happens to his tumor when he leaves the island. Maybe it returns and is the reason for the coffin.



JYoung said:


> Very interesting episode. It should be obvious by now that the Oceanic 6 had to make Devil's deals to get off the Island. Sayid's seems to be the most severe of them.
> (Although I wonder if having to kill would drive Jack to alcohol abuse.)


Maybe Sayid learns something, in that room or somewhere else, that leads him to believe Ben is right about this new group of "rescuers" and he joins up with him to stop that group. Maybe they really are trying to kill the survivors as was hinted in this episode, and maybe Sayid taking out their superiors is what Ben refers to by Sayid protecting his friends.

I'm not sure why Ben would be interested in helping with that after they take him off the island, though. Maybe he is just trying whatever he can to get back to the island.



bpurcell said:


> My educated guess prediction for the next person revealed as a part of the Oceanic 6, either:
> 
> 1. Kate's significant other that she referenced while meeting Jack at the airport. Could be Sawyer, but no guarantees.
> 
> 2. Michael. It's possible he's on that ship.


Maybe Michael is Ben's spy on the ship. Perhaps, like Sayid in the future, he is also working with Ben now and is spying on this group for him.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You'd think I See Dead People would be seeing dead people all over the village. What with all the people who died there...


Or that he could have sensed that Sayid was up to something ... his psychic abilities do seem to be limited to speaking with the dead.

Did anyone notice any indication of when this flash forward took place in relation to Jack's? My first impression was that now we know that Ben wasn't the person in the coffin, but if Jack's flash forward was later than this one, I guess that doesn't necessarily follow.


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

> So does that mean I should wait 20 mins and go anyway?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

DVDerek said:


> I didn't think this episode was nearly as good as last weeks. In it's defense, last weeks was probably one of the best. This weeks was much slower.
> 
> I wanted to see the pilots reaction when Jack said, "I can't believe I haven't seen a game in 100 days." I was thinking that maybe more time has passed in the "real world" than the losties are aware of. That would also explain the differing clocks on the payload. We started thinking maybe time passed slower on the island. However, my wife points out that in Jack's flash forward at the end of last season, his ex wife does not seem to have aged any more than he has.


If say the Losties are still back at the end of 2004, but those outside the island are in the present, then being 100 days away from a Red Sox world series win would still work no 

-smak-


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

FYI, Lost will air until episode 7 on 3/13, and then will take 4 weeks off and be back 4/17, and will then run for 6 weeks.

And when it comes back it'll air at 10pm after Grey's Anatomy!

-smak-


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Cwoody,

We already KNOW that Kate is one of the Six, so that's no surprise. The four that have been revealed so far are Jack, *Kate*, Hurley and Sayid. Jack and Kate met/will meet in a flash forward earlier.

Sawyer spoke of his reluctance to get off the island when talking to Kate, which means he wouldn't necessarily try to leave. Unless he had no choice, he's probably NOT one of the Six. My guess would be Juliet and maybe Claire plus Aaron. If they have a choice of who goes and who stays, it makes sense to save the baby.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Cwoody,
> My guess would be Juliet and maybe Claire plus Aaron. If they have a choice of who goes and who stays, it makes sense to save the baby.


I highly doubt it would be Juliet. The media would know pretty quickly as did Miles that Juliet was never on the plane. I just doubt that she would be lumped in with the "oceanic" group.



MickeS said:


> Do little rockets like that really go that fast, by the way? Not taking elevation into account, it must have gone at least 3 km/s or so (seemed like she said "30...25...20" with mayeb 1-2 seconds in between), which is like... uh... really fast.  Roughly 6500 miles/hour, if I have it right. I know rockets can go way faster than that (to leave earth, a rocket would have to go more than 3 times that), but a little rocket like that?


I would have to say yes. I can't give you actual speeds but think of a fighter jet flying at top speed but still having the ability to launch missiles that go much faster than it. Its possible...


----------



## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

I happened to catch a few minutes of the replay of last week's episode and they showed it with those "enhanced captions" on the bottom of the screen. For those who missed it, it was mentioned that George (on the ship) shares the same last name as a scientist who worked on space/time theories & deviations (or something very similar - sorry, don't recall the exact wording).


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

DVDerek said:


> I wanted to see the pilots reaction when Jack said, "I can't believe I haven't seen a game in 100 days." I was thinking that maybe more time has passed in the "real world" than the losties are aware of.


Franks response of "don't get me started on that again..." was that of someone that had come to terms with the Yanks loss but it took him a long time to get over it....I am sticking with the alternate time-line theory...


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## mrpope (Jan 13, 2006)

bpurcell said:


> 2. Michael. It's possible he's on that ship.


i think michael is ben's inside man. if the losties don't know the inside man, what's it matter that ben tells them or not?


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## JMikeD (Jun 10, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Do little rockets like that really go that fast, by the way? Not taking elevation into account, it must have gone at least 3 km/s or so (seemed like she said "30...25...20" with mayeb 1-2 seconds in between), which is like... uh... really fast.  Roughly 6500 miles/hour, if I have it right. I know rockets can go way faster than that (to leave earth, a rocket would have to go more than 3 times that), but a little rocket like that?


Unlikely, especially a ship-launched missile. 6500 statute miles per hour is Mach 8.7, and I believe you'd be hard-pressed to find a current fighter that could launch a missile to get to that speed. Missiles couldn't even catch the SR-71 Blackbird, which had a top speed of Mach 3.2 (at 70,000 feet altitude). The SR-71 was fired on a number of times, and they just outran the missiles.


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## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

I agree that Michael could be Ben's man on the ship. The instructions that Faraday gave to the pilot, something along the lines of "don't stray from the coordinates, no matter what" were very similar to the instructions Ben gave Michael when he put him on the boat. Since Michael was already enslisted into Ben's service, it makes sense that Ben directed him to the freighter to be his spy.

This could make Michael another of the Oceanix Six - but he's already been "rescued." Of course Michael left along with Walt, but that was a long time ago, before he became "Taller Walt."

I liked the dramatic pause when Kate was searching Ben's bedroom and came to his closet, opening it to find out that it was - a closet. Am I remembering incorrectly, or wasn't that closet the "magic box" where Locke's father was?


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## drevnock (Jan 24, 2003)

One of the passports had Ben listed as "Moriarty"
I seem to recall that being Sherlock Holmes biggest nemisis!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

JMikeD said:


> Unlikely, especially a ship-launched missile. 6500 statute miles per hour is Mach 8.7, and I believe you'd be hard-pressed to find a current fighter that could launch a missile to get to that speed. Missiles couldn't even catch the SR-71 Blackbird, which had a top speed of Mach 3.2 (at 70,000 feet altitude). The SR-71 was fired on a number of times, and they just outran the missiles.


Another poster said that the whole thing took 28 seconds, so maybe I was wrong about the speed. Anyway, just a tangential discussion. Thanks for the information.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think it's Michael too. It's either someone we know, or a new character.

If it's someone we know, Michael is the only possibility.

If it's a new character, than guessing is pointless.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of the secret room, those barracks houses weren't that big. It should have been pretty obvious from the outside that there was an extra hidden room on that house. Surprised none of the other Others know about it. Or do they?


It's bigger on the inside? (Doctor Who) LOL


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

What I found interesting is that most people have heard of the Oceanic Six, but nobody seems to recognize them: especially the guy Sayid shot: he got afraid when he heard that. Why didn't he recognize Sayid?


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

smickola said:


> I liked the dramatic pause when Kate was searching Ben's bedroom and came to his closet, opening it to find out that it was - a closet. Am I remembering incorrectly, or wasn't that closet the "magic box" where Locke's father was?


You're remembering incorrectly. The magic box was down near where Locke's jail cell was.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Very interesting episode. It should be obvious by now that the Oceanic 6 had to make Devil's deals to get off the Island. Sayid's seems to be the most severe of them.
> (Although I wonder if having to kill would drive Jack to alcohol abuse.)


Well, it was pretty obvious how Hurley ended up switching from Team Locke to Team Jack, wasn't it? Until it wasn't. I assume nothing in this show.

I like the points people made about Jacob and "the economist" being averse to technology. Although I think it would be fair to say that a pager is more advanced technology than a flashlight, but still, a good parallel that I think will turn out to be meaningful. Also the comment about what Ben said to Michael about not straying from the bearing he told him, as Daniel warned the pilot.

Ok, am I missing something in regards to the payload clock? Not so much the difference between the two clocks, but the difference between the 28 seconds or so that Regina thought the flight should have taken, and the 3 hours +/- 15 minutes that the clocks indicated. I have to understand that before I can theorize on the 31-minute discrepancy.
EDIT: Oh, was it just the time of day on the clocks?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> What I found interesting is that most people have heard of the Oceanic Six, but nobody seems to recognize them: especially the guy Sayid shot: he got afraid when he heard that. Why didn't he recognize Sayid?


Well, once again we have no indication (that I noticed) of when the flash-forwards are taking place. So it could be a couple of years, which would probably be enough time for them to look familiar but people wouldn't always be able to place them right away.

But, after the ending, I am not convinced that his demeanor changed simply because Sayid was one of the Six. Perhaps it had to do with what Sayid or Ben said about people on the list knowing that Sayid would be after them now, and the guy putting two and two together.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Well, once again we have no indication (that I noticed) of when the flash-forwards are taking place. So it could be a couple of years, which would probably be enough time for them to look familiar but people wouldn't always be able to place them right away.
> 
> But, after the ending, I am not convinced that his demeanor changed simply because Sayid was one of the Six. Perhaps it had to do with what Sayid or Ben said about people on the list knowing that Sayid would be after them now, and the guy putting two and two together.


I can see the cops who caught Hurley not recognizing him, but I think the guy who Sayid shot had a specific reason to be afraid of anything to do with the Island. He knew he was in trouble when he found out: why didn't he recognize Sayid if he had past dealings with Ben or Dharma?


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Maybe the rocket went around the Earth? 
At that speed, it would take it roughly 3 hours to do that.


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## Tivortex (Feb 29, 2004)

bqmeister said:


> Holy Crap.
> 
> (I say that a lot after this show)


And it's just insightful as always.


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> I can see the cops who caught Hurley not recognizing him, but I think the guy who Sayid shot had a specific reason to be afraid of anything to do with the Island. He knew he was in trouble when he found out: why didn't he recognize Sayid if he had past dealings with Ben or Dharma?


I would think Hurley is more "recognizable" than Sayid in general. He just stands out more. And he's in L.A., where the Six appear to be central (and in America, where the news was probably bigger), as opposed to Europe, who had little to no connection to the actual flight.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

1) Danielle (French chick)

What if Danielle's research team actually came from 2004-2007ish, but because of the path they took when crashing on the island, they arrived back in time? Maybe the "Adam and Eve" they found are characters that we know or don't know yet that try to get to the island but make a mistake in course?

2) Walt
Maybe Walt is Ben's man on the boat..... He's a man now (again, maybe Michael deviated in course with Walt? Maybe Michael died of old age instead of suicide?) Walt would make a better spy-on-a-boat because he can remotely project (to Shannon/Sayid and Locke at least), as opposed to someone with a radio that the ship could hear..

Speaking of Shannon, I'd almost forgotten her and Sayid. Elsa might have reminded Sayid of her (blond, thin), making him fall for her.

3) Jacob
!!! Maybe the reason that Jacob and whomever-the-enemy-big-bad-guy is are averse to technology is because they (deliberately or accidentally) travel through time!! Maybe they're worried about bringing something like a flashlight back in time and changing things! (the cabin looks old - maybe Jacob was afraid/angry when Locke brought the flashlight in, because the cabin might move in time/space to when people would see it as magic/futuretech). The other guy - he has Elsa using an old pager so he can contact her even if he or Elsa are in 1980.. ?

Lastly, (ok, 4 ideas).. The cabin seems unstuck in time and space. Maybe it was behind the concrete wall in the Swan station initially (they built around it?). That last idea is garbage but i'm just brainstorming.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

there's a 31 minute 18 second difference in the clocks.. Where did this 3 hour idea come from? Oh, are you saying they starter the timers at 0:00:00 instead of it just being the time? (yeah I know it'd usually be dark at 02 hundred hours military time)


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> there's a 31 minute 18 second difference in the clocks.. Where did this 3 hour idea come from? Oh, are you saying they starter the timers at 0:00:00 instead of it just being the time? (yeah I know it'd usually be dark at 02 hundred hours military time)


exactly


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

crazywater said:


> Franks response of "don't get me started on that again..." was that of someone that had come to terms with the Yanks loss but it took him a long time to get over it....I am sticking with the alternate time-line theory...


Then why hasn't Jack's ex-wife aged any more than he appears to have in his flash forward? Does time speed back up when you get off the island?


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

I think that Ben's man on the boat is actually Charlotte.


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

Something that has had me puzzled about Ben though...

Last season (I think), he had this tumor that would kill him if not operated on so they bring in Jack to do this...if had the ability to leave the island (as it seems he does), why not go to a great hospital?

My theory is that these people getting off the island comes much sooner than most of us expect and then the show will turn into them somehow getting back to the island...


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## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

pcguru83 said:


> Can someone remind me again who we know of the "Oceanic Six"? We've got Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid that I can remember. It seems like I'm missing someone....


Although Ben wasn't on Oceanic 815, he obviously got off the island. Perhaps to explain his existence he is erroneously considered by the world to be one of the Oceanic Six.

Just a thought.

Barbeedoll


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> there's a 31 minute 18 second difference in the clocks.. Where did this 3 hour idea come from? Oh, are you saying they starter the timers at 0:00:00 instead of it just being the time? (yeah I know it'd usually be dark at 02 hundred hours military time)


Right. I was thinking they were timers, not clocks telling the time of day. Hence my confusion.


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## thatmeowgirl (Oct 8, 2004)

bpurcell said:


> My educated guess prediction for the next person revealed as a part of the Oceanic 6, either:
> 
> 1. Kate's significant other that she referenced while meeting Jack at the airport. Could be Sawyer, but no guarantees.


My guess is this is Ben, not Sawyer. I'm guessing this cause we now have evidence Ben has some kind of control over the survivors once they are rescued.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> I think it's Michael too. *It's either someone we know, or a new character.*


You sure about that?




jeff125va said:


> Ok, am I missing something in regards to the payload clock? Not so much the difference between the two clocks, but the difference between the 28 seconds or so that Regina thought the flight should have taken, and the 3 hours +/- 15 minutes that the clocks indicated. I have to understand that before I can theorize on the 31-minute discrepancy.
> EDIT: Oh, was it just the time of day on the clocks?


Three hours? I thought the difference was only 31 minutes?


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Ok, the golf scene really bugged me.

The guy looks at Sayid, shakes his head and says, "I'd use a five iron if I were you." That's a stupid statement and not something any real golfer would say. Golfers hit their clubs different distances, one person might hit a 5 iron 150 yards and another might hit it 200 yards. It's just not something a real golfer would say to another one.

Then, Sayid says to the guy (after the guy put his closer) "Looks like you were right about the 5 iron." Sayid put his ball past the pin (from what I could tell), had he used a 5 iron he would have flown the green. He should have said something like, "I guess I should have gone with the 8."

Do they not have any golfers on the writing staff?


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

DVDerek said:


> I think that Ben's man on the boat is actually Charlotte.


Well its obvious....she ages well. 

I think based on the technology we've seen they are in 2007/2008. So not much time has elapsed.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Cwoody,
> 
> We already KNOW that Kate is one of the Six, so that's no surprise. The four that have been revealed so far are Jack, *Kate*, Hurley and Sayid. Jack and Kate met/will meet in a flash forward earlier.


We know Kate is off the island. We do not know that the media refers to her as one of the Six or even if the media know she's a survivor of 815.

Personally, I think she is one of the six and next week's will confirm that.

And personally I think the previews'


Spoiler



indication that we'll learn the ID of a six will just confirm Kate, not give us another name.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DVDerek said:


> Then why hasn't Jack's ex-wife aged any more than he appears to have in his flash forward? Does time speed back up when you get off the island?


I think that how much someone appears to have aged - particularly only a few years for a 30-something-ish person - is much too subjective to argue either for or against any sort of time-travel theory.

In any case, it had been over two months since the Sox had beaten the Yankees. How long it would take someone to "get over" that is also fairly subjective. I don't think that two months is such a short time that one can definitively conclude that the freighter people must have travelled back in time to get there. Besides, even if you were to argue that it had to be at least, say, 6 months since the series had ended for Frank's comment to make sense, then wouldn't you have to say that since the Freighter guys had time-travelled on their way to the island, that the 815 people had also travelled backwards? Therefore the Red Sox wouldn't have yet won the world series and Ben wouldn't have been able to show them the video from the game.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Three hours? I thought the difference was only 31 minutes?


Scroll up a few posts.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

cwoody222 said:


> We know Kate is off the island. We do not know that the media refers to her as one of the Six or even if the media know she's a survivor of 815.
> 
> Personally, I think she is one of the six and next week's will confirm that.
> 
> ...


I agree: it's likely, but not yet confirmed. And... (preview-related spoiler)


Spoiler



I hope they do. I'll feel vindicated for my skepticism.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Scroll up a few posts.


Yeah, I saw that after I posted.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Ok, the golf scene really bugged me.
> 
> The guy looks at Sayid, shakes his head and says, "I'd use a five iron if I were you." That's a stupid statement and not something any real golfer would say. Golfers hit their clubs different distances, one person might hit a 5 iron 150 yards and another might hit it 200 yards. It's just not something a real golfer would say to another one.
> 
> ...


dude, i'm TOTALLY with you on that. I had to do a 'suspend belief' moment there and just go with it. But I was thinking the exact same thing.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Bryanmc said:


> Ok, the golf scene really bugged me.
> 
> The guy looks at Sayid, shakes his head and says, "I'd use a five iron if I were you." That's a stupid statement and not something any real golfer would say. Golfers hit their clubs different distances, one person might hit a 5 iron 150 yards and another might hit it 200 yards. It's just not something a real golfer would say to another one.
> 
> ...


Not to mention that it's incredibly bad form, especially at an expensive, exclusive place like they were at, to simply drive up and horn your way in on another person/group that you're not playing with.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

milo99 said:


> dude, i'm TOTALLY with you on that. I had to do a 'suspend belief' moment there and just go with it. But I was thinking the exact same thing.


During the break I told my wife why that part bugged me. She said I was crazy.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Not to mention that it's incredibly bad form, especially at an expensive, exclusive place like they were at, to simply drive up and horn your way in on another person/group that you're not playing with.


Yeah, someone might shoot you for doing that.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Bryanmc said:


> Ok, the golf scene really bugged me.
> 
> The guy looks at Sayid, shakes his head and says, "I'd use a five iron if I were you." That's a stupid statement and not something any real golfer would say. Golfers hit their clubs different distances, one person might hit a 5 iron 150 yards and another might hit it 200 yards. It's just not something a real golfer would say to another one.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Sayid's shot did go farther, I noticed that too. As far as his suggestion on what club to use, the guy just seemed a bit obnoxious so I didn't think much of it. In fact, when Sayid said something about paying a hefty premium for privacy, I thought he was sort of hinting for the guy to leave him alone. Obviously, he knew who he was all along so that wouldn't have been the case. Actually, it makes it seem all the more unlikely that someone who Sayid was planning to kill just happened to come by while he was playing. Even if Sayid knew he'd be on the course, I can't imagine he planned it like that. I guess he could have been hoping for an opportunity and just took advantage of the one that came along. Sometimes things just go more easily than one expects.


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Did I hear correctly that Sayid is killing to protect his "friends." I'm assuming that means Jack, Hurley, and the rest.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

whitson77 said:


> Did I hear correctly that Sayid is killing to protect his "friends." I'm assuming that means Jack, Hurley, and the rest.


Yes, you heard right, but I don't think it's safe to assume that. My guess is that he either means the rest of the Oceanic Six (and possibly any non-O6 members who came back), or the group still on the island.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Yeah, Sayid's shot did go farther, I noticed that too. As far as his suggestion on what club to use, the guy just seemed a bit obnoxious so I didn't think much of it. In fact, when Sayid said something about paying a hefty premium for privacy, I thought he was sort of hinting for the guy to leave him alone. Obviously, he knew who he was all along so that wouldn't have been the case. Actually, it makes it seem all the more unlikely that someone who Sayid was planning to kill just happened to come by while he was playing. Even if Sayid knew he'd be on the course, I can't imagine he planned it like that. I guess he could have been hoping for an opportunity and just took advantage of the one that came along. Sometimes things just go more easily than one expects.


I think Sayid is a very good assassin who does his research and knows the tendencies of his marks. In this case, I think he knew that the mark was an avid gambler, especially on the golf course, and wouldn't be able to resist the chance to make a bet with someone. So Sayid was playing on that specific course at that specific time precisely because he knew that the mark would likely engage him like that.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Not to mention that it's incredibly bad form, especially at an expensive, exclusive place like they were at, to simply drive up and horn your way in on another person/group that you're not playing with.


Didn't Sayid say that "we" paid a premium for that kind of privacy, meaning to have private access to the course?

So, some sort of group booked the place for a few hours. That guy that rolled up on Sayid didn't seem to alarm Sayid, so was he part of the group? Yet he was a foe of some sort because he killed him.


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

I'm also ASSUMING that the same people that Ben and Sayid after tracking in the future is the same organization that "Lt. Daniels" and Naomi work for...


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Didn't Sayid say that "we" paid a premium for that kind of privacy, meaning to have private access to the course?
> 
> So, some sort of group booked the place for a few hours. That guy that rolled up on Sayid didn't seem to alarm Sayid, so was he part of the group? Yet he was a foe of some sort because he killed him.


He could just as easily have been referring to anyone who plays on the course. He, Mr. Avellino, and any other member or paying customer.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think Sayid is a very good assassin who does his research and knows the tendencies of his marks. In this case, I think he knew that the mark was an avid gambler, especially on the golf course, and wouldn't be able to resist the chance to make a bet with someone. So Sayid was playing on that specific course at that specific time precisely because he knew that the mark would likely engage him like that.


Yeah, I was sort of coming around to that line of thinking as I was writing. Still, I think it worked out _a little_ better than he planned, or at least it was his best-case scenario. I'm sure he had some sort of backup plan where he'd have to approach the guy very subtly. But yes, I'm sure you're correct that he knew the guy would be there.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Wow, I'm amazed. 111 posts and still no argument about whether Sayid and Elsa actually had sex, or were just lying naked in bed together.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

spikedavis said:


> I'm also ASSUMING that the same people that Ben and Sayid after tracking in the future is the same organization that "Lt. Daniels" and Naomi work for...


I have a feeling there's some connection there. My guess is that the people on "the list" are people who could reveal whatever secrets the Six are hiding. Or at least have some collective knowledge that when put together could cast doubt on their public story.


----------



## miketx (Sep 22, 2005)

I think we now have a "twist" on the old Bermuda Triangle theory. The rocket shows that some kind of time shift is occurring. Perhaps the big magnetic generators on the island are to keep it "in sync" (or maybe purposely out of sync....that sounds better) and there is a need to recalibrate it on a regular basis (hence the code entering/button pushing). Now that the generators (or at least one) is toast, the time sync is drifting (which explains why the scientist guy acted very concerned).

I think the island can't actually be "seen", as it is located in some kind of alternate dimension or something like that. Somehow someone found it years ago, but installed equipment to have control over the "visibility".

I think the Oceanic 6 got off the island, but all the other people are still there (and alive). The reason people act strangely about them is there hasn't been a good explanation to the public how 6 people survived (and healthy) after being gone so long. The public doesn't know about the island.

Ok, I know my theory is way out there......shred away  I could ramble for hours (just ask my wife).


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Wow, I'm amazed. 111 posts and still no argument about whether Sayid and Elsa actually had sex, or were just lying naked in bed together.


LOL! nice.. very nice.


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Not to mention that it's incredibly bad form, especially at an expensive, exclusive place like they were at, to simply drive up and horn your way in on another person/group that you're not playing with.


yea that was the other thing that bugged me about that scene. And he just offers a ride to the next tee? and the dude just drops a ball at that spot to make a bet?

that whole scene was just NOT something that would happen on a golf course... and that's not even mentioning that Sayid was playing alone. I don't think I've ever heard of a club that allows someone to play alone- they'll pair you up with someone.. but i let that one go and just assumed he paid extra or something.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Ok, the golf scene really bugged me.
> 
> The guy looks at Sayid, shakes his head and says, "I'd use a five iron if I were you." That's a stupid statement and not something any real golfer would say. Golfers hit their clubs different distances, one person might hit a 5 iron 150 yards and another might hit it 200 yards. It's just not something a real golfer would say to another one.
> 
> ...


I know, that was idiotic. You'd think that ONE writer or the director had ever played a round of golf. It could have been done by just altering the dialog slightly, making it a "closest to the hole" bet instead, and everything else would have been the same.

And then ALL the sprinklers go off on the fairway where they are, where they've paid a premium to play by themselves...


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

milo99 said:


> that whole scene was just NOT something that would happen on a golf course... and that's not even mentioning that Sayid was playing alone. I don't think I've ever heard of a club that allows someone to play alone- they'll pair you up with someone.. but i let that one go and just assumed he paid extra or something.


Yeah, there are courses where you do indeed pay extra to be able to play alone.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

milo99 said:


> I don't think I've ever heard of a club that allows someone to play alone- they'll pair you up with someone.. but i let that one go and just assumed he paid extra or something.


Apparently I've played at some nicer places that you have. 

I used to have a job where I played golf at some *choice* courses. I miss that job. 

But yeah, there are plenty of very upscale places where you can play alone. That part didn't bother me.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

milo99 said:


> yea that was the other thing that bugged me about that scene. And he just offers a rid to the next tee? and the dude just drops a ball at that spot to make a bet?
> 
> that whole scene was just NOT something that would happen on a golf course... and that's not even mentioning that Sayid was playing alone. I don't think I've ever heard of a club that allows someone to play alone- they'll pair you up with someone.. but i let that one go and just assumed he paid extra or something.


Well this was clearly an extremely expensive place to play, which Sayid referred to allowing them a great deal of privacy. It doesn't seem unrealistic that the price would be so prohibitive as to allow players to play solo.

Aside from the 5-iron vs. 7-iron thing (they probably should have just switched them) I don't think these details are as bad as you guys are suggesting. I think the guy was just obnoxious. When you pretty much have the course to yourself, you can do things that aren't usually done on your average golf course.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

MickeS said:


> I know, that was idiotic. You'd think that ONE writer or the director had ever played a round of golf. It could have been done by just altering the dialog slightly, making it a "closest to the hole" bet instead, and everything else would have been the same.
> 
> And then ALL the sprinklers go off on the fairway where they are, where they've paid a premium to play by themselves...


Oh yeah, I forgot about the sprinklers, that was a bit over the top. I was waiting for Sayid to say "Razzle-Dazzle."


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

milo99 said:


> yea that was the other thing that bugged me about that scene. And he just offers a rid to the next tee? and the dude just drops a ball at that spot to make a bet?
> 
> that whole scene was just NOT something that would happen on a golf course... and that's not even mentioning that Sayid was playing alone. I don't think I've ever heard of a club that allows someone to play alone- they'll pair you up with someone.. but i let that one go and just assumed he paid extra or something.


And time travel happens all the time?

Just let it go, clubheads.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Apparently I've played at some nicer places that you have.
> 
> I used to have a job where I played golf at some *choice* courses. I miss that job.
> 
> But yeah, there are plenty of very upscale places where you can play alone. That part didn't bother me.


yes, you probably have. 


MickeS said:


> And then ALL the sprinklers go off on the fairway where they are, where they've paid a premium to play by themselves...


man, the more we talk about that scene, the more i remember why it bugged me. Forgot about the sprinklers! arggg......


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## ScottE22 (Sep 19, 2003)

milo99 said:


> yes, you probably have.
> 
> man, the more we talk about that scene, the more i remember why it bugged me. Forgot about the sprinklers! arggg......


I thought Sayid had planned the whole sprinkler thing to rinse the crime scene clean...


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

smak said:


> If say the Losties are still back at the end of 2004, but those outside the island are in the present, then being 100 days away from a Red Sox world series win would still work no
> 
> -smak-


I still refuese to believe the Red Sox won the World Series


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## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

thatmeowgirl said:


> My guess is this is Ben, not Sawyer. I'm guessing this cause we now have evidence Ben has some kind of control over the survivors once they are rescued.


I wouldn't think Ben would be one of the Oceanic 6 - since he wasn't on the plane.

Also, just because there's an Oceanic 6 doesn't mean that only 6 people got off the Island.


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## Haps (Nov 30, 2001)

MickeS said:


> And then ALL the sprinklers go off on the fairway where they are, where they've paid a premium to play by themselves...


If this really was a high end private club how often do you think the sprinklers turn on when members are out on the course. Lol. The superintendent would be fired lickety split.

I can see some suspension of disbelief in shows when it's required by the plot or the subject matter is really technical. But come on golf?


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## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

jeff125va said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot about the sprinklers, that was a bit over the top. I was waiting for Sayid to say "Razzle-Dazzle."


What show was "razzle-dazzle" from? For some reason, my daughter and I always goof on that saying, but neither one of us can remember the show it came from.


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## thatmeowgirl (Oct 8, 2004)

dba62 said:


> I wouldn't think Ben would be one of the Oceanic 6 - since he wasn't on the plane.
> 
> Also, just because there's an Oceanic 6 doesn't mean that only 6 people got off the Island.


I didn't say Ben was part of the Oceanic 6. I don't recall Kate saying the "he" waiting for her was part of the Oceanic 6 either. Why couldn't it be Ben?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Well, once again we have no indication (that I noticed) of when the flash-forwards are taking place. So it could be a couple of years, which would probably be enough time for them to look familiar but people wouldn't always be able to place them right away.
> 
> But, after the ending, I am not convinced that his demeanor changed simply because Sayid was one of the Six. Perhaps it had to do with what Sayid or Ben said about people on the list knowing that Sayid would be after them now, and the guy putting two and two together.


It could be that the O-6 has become sort of rougue organization. They were given the name because they were surivors of the crash BY BEN, and Ben is pulling all their strings. Maybe Ben is running the 6 as a hit team to knock out anyone from the Dharma Initiative. Jack wants to commit suicide at the end of last season as a way to end his guilt (and he's drinking because of it), Kate has to get back to Ben because he's "wondering where she is". Hurley went mad, perhaps as his way of getting out of the deal with Ben. If I rewatched these episodes there might be some other clues I'm sure.

Anyway, that's my theory now.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Yes, you heard right, but I don't think it's safe to assume that. My guess is that he either means the rest of the Oceanic Six (and possibly any non-O6 members who came back), or the group still on the island.


I totally think he's talking about people on the island when he says that..

1) He's basically saying "Help me protect the island from further invasion/exploitation, and your friends are there - so you're protecting them"

2) Hurley believes (and real-or-imaginary-Charlie-figure told him) that "they need you", and Hurley thinks they need to "go back".

3) Jack thinks they need to go back, and right before he was about to commit suicide, he looks up and says "I'm sorry" in a way that made me think he wasn't saying it to any god or anything, but rather he was figuratively saying it to whichever people were counting on him that he let down..

Add to that the fact that Elsa had a bracelet just like Naomi's, and I think it's safe to bet that Ben's still actively trying to fight the group he was fighting before, and that participating in that fight will help "protect" Sayid's friends.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> I'm also ASSUMING that the same people that Ben and Sayid after tracking in the future is the same organization that "Lt. Daniels" and Naomi work for...


Right, a good hint about that is Elsa and Naomi having similar bracelets.


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

goMO said:


> What show was "razzle-dazzle" from? For some reason, my daughter and I always goof on that saying, but neither one of us can remember the show it came from.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jeff125va said:


> Yes, you heard right, but I don't think it's safe to assume that. My guess is that he either means the rest of the Oceanic Six (and possibly any non-O6 members who came back), or the group still on the island.


Sayid could also be protecting Nadia (along with 815 survivors, since she is not "friends" plural).

On another note, add me to the list of people who think Kate will be officially revealed as an O6 member next week.

Edited to add: This thread has given me one more reason to be glad I don't play golf. None of that scene bothered me. In fact, the sprinklers were pretty.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I have two theories about the whole concept of "Oceanic Six"

First of all, let's get this out of the way: it's just what the media is calling the six people, found on a lifeboat or something, out in the ocean. No one in the media is reporting (or knows about) any island, etc. I think that's all pretty obvious and I'm surprised it keeps getting brought up (and now, again, by me!  ).

So this whole idea of them even giving it a name, and featuring it in the story:

1) I think the writers are trying to distract us from figuring something out. They said "Hey, let's take something fairly uninteresting, like which people actually got off of the island, and make it a big deal. People will debate "ooh, which are 'in the official 6!' just like they debated all of the other trivial things we've given them in the past", and won't figure out x, y, or z before we choose to reveal it.

At least that's how it feels to me, even moreso when you watch the previews and how much they hype "This week.. learn another of the oceanic six!!!!!"..

2) Maybe this is an artifact of the writer's strike.. Maybe once they realized that they only had 8 (now 7?) episodes to show us, they decided "ok, well what things are completely answered within those 7-8 episodes, which could look like a "season" without a real cliffhanger, if we had to call it a season?".. Then the preview-creating-team could have gone hog-wild with the "build up the hype around the Oceanic Six" bit..

Within the show, it hasn't been that big a deal (a cool story element, but not over-the-top hyped or focused on).. but in the preview world (and in at least _our_ forum discussions, which were undoubtedly affected by those previews), it's talked about waaaaay too much.

..Jeff

p.s. Neither Ben nor Kate nor Juliete would make sense as part of the Oceanic Six. See? Now they've got me saying it. Not Richard, either.  But Walt and Michael are certainly possibilities.

p.p.s. Pay no attention to the plotline behind the curtain.


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## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

thatmeowgirl said:


> I didn't say Ben was part of the Oceanic 6. I don't recall Kate saying the "he" waiting for her was part of the Oceanic 6 either. Why couldn't it be Ben?


Apparently, I misunderstood your post.

So whose funeral did no one attend? Anybody have any new theories?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

(another random thought)

I don't believe this one too much yet, but I just thought: what if Ben's saying "help protect your friends" in an indirect way.. What if he means something like "look, we gotta keep people off of the island, to keep Jacob safe. Then Jacob can keep doing the things that HE does to keep us all safe, like curing Rose's cancer, keeping Locke walking, (insert all of the magic things done on the island), etc."

Eh, I dunno how much I even believe that, but it's a thought.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> 1) I think the writers are trying to distract us from figuring something out. They said "Hey, let's take something fairly uninteresting, like which people actually got off of the island, and make it a big deal. People will debate "ooh, which are 'in the official 6!' just like they debated all of the other trivial things we've given them in the past", and won't figure out x, y, or z before we choose to reveal it.
> 
> At least that's how it feels to me, even moreso when you watch the previews and how much they hype "This week.. learn another of the oceanic six!!!!!"..


I'm not sure the writers have anything to do with the previews. I thought that was all the networks.

However, your theory about it being a red herring does have some good points.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Now that the writer's strike is over, are the podcasts going to resume? I have to imagine the production staff is working hard right now to get the band back together. I wonder how long until they've caught their collective breath and start delivering some podcasts.


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## jeffo13 (Oct 21, 2005)

DUDE_NJX said:


> And time travel happens all the time?
> 
> Just let it go, clubheads.


Maybe in an alternate dimension you hit a 7 iron further than a 5?

I paused the golf scene as well and tried to explain it to my wife. She thought I was crazy and I don't even really play much golf.

The reason I think it struck a nerve with many people is that they know the game so well and it was an obvious error. (unless it was a clue) Now if there is a similar error in the quantum physics of time travel on the show, I am sure fewer people would complain.

All I can say is that the 31 min time difference reversed the loft angles on golf clubs and the guy Sayid shot knew this, hence his bet. This allowed Sayid to confirm who he was. I am sure this information has just knocked out some actual important information from your brain. Sorry!

Jeff

PSN=Bender313


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

dba62 said:


> Apparently, I misunderstood your post.
> 
> So whose funeral did no one attend? Anybody have any new theories?


After seeing Ben off the island, I liked the idea of it being Ben even more and Jack's distress being due to now it being harder or even impossible to get back. Or maybe Ben's being gone makes it more dangerous for the friends everyone is trying to protect.

All the talk of getting back to the island always makes be think of these song lyrics:

We are stardust, we are golden
We are ten billion year old carbon
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden


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## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

laststarfighter said:


>


Oh Geez, it was "Lost"!! It was Nikki's TV show... thanks for the link!


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jeffo13 said:


> The reason I think it struck a nerve with many people is that they know the game so well and it was an obvious error. (unless it was a clue) Now if there is a similar error in the quantum physics of time travel on the show, I am sure fewer people would complain.
> 
> All I can say is that the 31 min time difference reversed the loft angles on golf clubs and the guy Sayid shot knew this, hence his bet. This allowed Sayid to confirm who he was. I am sure this information has just knocked out some actual important information from your brain. Sorry!
> 
> ...


Maybe it was a clue to let you know that maybe the whole exchange took place on the island because on the island golf has different rules (sorry, I'm not a golf person so I don't get it either other than one iron will apparently make the ball go further than the other I'm guessing) Maybe in this flash forward, the island is being exploited by some rich upscale country club that's renting it out and now Ben feels the need to kill all involved with bringing the golf course to the island


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

One thing that stuck in my mind was naomi's bracelet and how it was from RG or RC (as keegan pointed out). Which for some reason made me think about her voice twin Regina and how it could be her sister. So it might not have been a signal. But Regina didn't seem too distraught over Naomi's 'death' during her chats with Miles and Daniel. Just a thought.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> Maybe it was a clue to let you know that maybe the whole exchange took place on the island because on the island golf has different rules (sorry, I'm not a golf person so I don't get it either other than one iron will apparently make the ball go further than the other I'm guessing) Maybe in this flash forward, the island is being exploited by some rich upscale country club that's renting it out and now Ben feels the need to kill all involved with bringing the golf course to the island


But Mr. Allevino asked Sayid about coming to Seychelles before.


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## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

jehma said:


> After seeing Ben off the island, I liked the idea of it being Ben even more and Jack's distress being due to now it being harder or even impossible to get back. Or maybe Ben's being gone makes it more dangerous for the friends everyone is trying to protect.


I think I'm already on record as to subscribing to this theory. I agree it still seems to make sense - given what we know to date.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Sorry for so many posts in a row. Just trying to get my post number up, since i used to be just a reader and not a poster. 



miketx said:


> I think the Oceanic 6 got off the island, but all the other people are still there (and alive). The reason people act strangely about them is there hasn't been a good explanation to the public how 6 people survived (and healthy) after being gone so long. The public doesn't know about the island.


I think the only ones we've seen act strangely around the O-6 is Mr. Allevino because as soon as he knew who Sayid was, he knew he did bad things and is part of the Oceanic/Dharma/Hanso/Frieghter people and he was like.. well crap, i better get my butt out of here cause he is going to kill me.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> I have two theories about the whole concept of "Oceanic Six"
> 
> First of all, let's get this out of the way: it's just what the media is calling the six people, found on a lifeboat or something, out in the ocean. No one in the media is reporting (or knows about) any island, etc. I think that's all pretty obvious and I'm surprised it keeps getting brought up (and now, again, by me!  ).


I agree. I haven't gone back and reread, but I don't remember anyone here suggesting that the outside world knows about the island. It's possible the world does know, I suppose, but there's been nothing yet to suggest that, and plenty of reason to suspect otherwise.



jkeegan said:


> So this whole idea of them even giving it a name, and featuring it in the story:
> 
> 1) I think the writers are trying to distract us from figuring something out. They said "Hey, let's take something fairly uninteresting, like which people actually got off of the island, and make it a big deal. People will debate "ooh, which are 'in the official 6!' just like they debated all of the other trivial things we've given them in the past", and won't figure out x, y, or z before we choose to reveal it.
> 
> ...


Where I disagree with you is the idea that who gets off the island and who doesn't is "fairly uninteresting." We've gotten to know these people over the last few years and are interested in what happens to them. Once it became apparent that some would get back home and some wouldn't, it's natural to wonder who would be in each group. And given that at least one character will die if she's on the island a few more weeks, that's pretty significant, if not to the whole island mystery, then certainly to her and her husband.

It is certainly true that Oceanic 6 is a writer's invention to create more suspense on the issue of who leaves, but that doesn't make it trivial, especially since what we've seen so far shows us that the O6 are having a really horrible time. It is not "the island mystery," but it's a pretty important sub-plot.

And if you say Kate is an unlikely candidate to be part of the Oceanic 6 because of her criminal history (and I can't think of any other reason), I understand that argument, but I think there are pretty easy ways to get around that. Such as, Kate comes back as a hero who has survived a terrible ordeal, and the charges against her are dropped due to public pressure.


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## Sir_Q (Jun 27, 2002)

What did Sayid give Locke to bring back Charlotte? He already HAD two newbs in his possession.


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## Mr. Belboz (Dec 3, 1999)

My theory on how things will progress.

The Oceanic survivors will discover that Ben was right and the ship is not there to rescue them. The people on the ship work for the Hanso foundation that lost contact with the Island and their people because of Ben. Some of the people on the ship might not know of the more sinister plans of some on the ship.

A battle between the people on the ship and all the survivors (not just the "six") will ensue and they will defeat the people on the ship.

Ben will help the survivors with this battle and end the end they will realize that they all can't leave because it is too great a risk. He will let six survivors leave with the knowledge that they can never speak of the island or the fact that there are survivors still there. 

I think letting six leave helps him since they can indicate that they were the only to survive the crash (which keeps people from looking for the rest of them) and he can also use them as his little agents, like he is with Sayid. His main goal in using Sayid and possibly the other 5 survivors is to stop Hanso from trying to get back to the island.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> I think it's Michael too. It's either someone we know, or a new character.
> 
> If it's someone we know, Michael is the only possibility.
> 
> If it's a new character, than guessing is pointless.


I also agree that it could be Michael, but there is another possibility of someone we know. In last week's posts, someone brought up Annie. 
And ben said 'man on the boat,' just to be ben and throw them/us off.


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## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't know if this is a nitpick or not but here goes.

If the guy on the golf course was part of "this list (and we assume he is)," then you would certainly think that he would know who Sayid was without having to ask.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Scubee said:


> I don't know if this is a nitpick or not but here goes.
> 
> If the guy on the golf course was part of "this list (and we assume he is)," then you would certainly think that he would know who Sayid was without having to ask.


I don't think so. It's at the end that Sayid says "now they know we're after them". Presumably they didn't know before that.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> Where I disagree with you is the idea that who gets off the island and who doesn't is "fairly uninteresting." We've gotten to know these people over the last few years and are interested in what happens to them. Once it became apparent that some would get back home and some wouldn't, it's natural to wonder who would be in each group. And given that at least one character will die if she's on the island a few more weeks, that's pretty significant, if not to the whole island mystery, then certainly to her and her husband.


I agree that it's not technically "uninteresting", and I did hestitate before typing it, but I stand by it, for the following reason: with 3 seasons left, they can't afford to have the reveals mean too much at this point.. Oooh, big surprise, Jack and Kate and Sayid don't die anytime soon.. Yeah, they killed off Charlie, but they can't kill everyone. I guess what I'm saying is that the story, if it continues to be as involved and interesting as it has been for the past 3 seasons, will undoubtedly entertain us, and not just hinge on "who makes it off the island". Plus, it looks like they'll get back to the island (at least they're hinting at Jack and Hurley's desire for it), or at least we'll see current-day events of people still ON the island.. maybe..

Who makes it off the island isn't as interesting as people think. The next big thing will be, instead. (Note to self: come back and find this post in 12 months and see how right I was). 



> And if you say Kate is an unlikely candidate to be part of the Oceanic 6 because of her criminal history (and I can't think of any other reason), I understand that argument, but I think there are pretty easy ways to get around that. Such as, Kate comes back as a hero who has survived a terrible ordeal, and the charges against her are dropped due to public pressure.


Not only do I disagree with the idea that she'd be pardoned due to public pressure, but the show has hinted that they agree with me.. Sawyer/James just told Kate something like "what are you so eager to get off the island for? Last I remembered you were being carted off to jail.. If you think you're getting out of that, you don't know how the world works".. (this being said from a man who actually had to go to jail).

Add to that Jack's talking to her without using names ("it's me") or locations ("the usual spot") on the phone, and I think it's a good bet that Kate is undercover.. not under as much pressure as she was when she was followed by the fed guy there, but undercover nevertheless.. (hidden in a cargo hold or something).



Spoiler



As for the previews, I get the feeling that them showing her with sunglasses on and the media paying attention to us is to throw us off as well - if that were the only data it'd be too much of a reveal to give away in a preview, no matter who's creating the previews).


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

I think the USS Nimitz with Kirk Douglas, Martin Sheen, and Charles Durning on it is due to arrive in the Lost harbor any day now.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Not only do I disagree with the idea that she'd be pardoned due to public pressure, but the show has hinted that they agree with me.. Sawyer/James just told Kate something like "what are you so eager to get off the island for? Last I remembered you were being carted off to jail.. If you think you're getting out of that, you don't know how the world works".. (this being said from a man who actually had to go to jail).
> 
> Add to that Jack's talking to her without using names ("it's me") or locations ("the usual spot") on the phone, and I think it's a good bet that Kate is undercover.. not under as much pressure as she was when she was followed by the fed guy there, but undercover nevertheless.. (hidden in a cargo hold or something).


Or Dharma or Ben or whatever the company was that hired Juliet paid off enough people to get the charges against her dropped.
That would also a hold over Kate and may be part of the reason she had to meet Jack in secret.


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

getbak said:


> Does it mean that 30 seconds in "real time" is the same as 30 minutes on the island? If that's true, and the cast-aways have been on the island for 100 days, that would mean they've been away from the real world for 18 years. Also, in this case, the beacon clock should be ahead of the rocket clock.


I think your math is wrong. If your theory is true that 30 seconds off the island equals 30 minutes on the island, then 100 days on the island would equal about 1.6 days off the island.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

ElJay said:


> I think the USS Nimitz with Kirk Douglas, Martin Sheen, and Charles Durning on it is due to arrive in the Lost harbor any day now.


"Splash the Zeroes!" :up:


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

The cofffin- what if it's one of Sayid's victims? At this point, Jack wouldn't be on the same side as Ben, and by association, Sayid. Could the unknown dead person be someone who was targeted by Ben/Sayid?


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## Carlucci (Jan 10, 2001)

I know it would be an unprecedented dirty trick, but were there any contextual clues that rule out both a flash-forward and flash-back? Could the first Sayid flash have been after he got off the island, and the 2nd have been before he got to the island? i.e, was he an assasin for Ben before going to Australia?

Edit: Nevermind, just talked myself out of this crazy thought. Why would Sayid have beaten the crap out of Ben when Ben first appeared?

Guess we already have enough crazy possibilities without me needing to cook up more.


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

TonyTheTiger said:


> My word is - Wow!!!


That is exactly what I said after viewing it. My head is still spinning.
This thing is actually going somewhere...


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

ElJay said:


> I think the USS Nimitz with Kirk Douglas, Martin Sheen, and Charles Durning on it is due to arrive in the Lost harbor any day now.


That's good. 

I could have sworn the creators said time travel wasn't involved. But the "payload" incident says otherwise. (Even for only a brief time)


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

But bottom line, I wish this show was over so I could know what in the "F" was going on!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Apparently, they are only a few days away from the major Tsunami that occurred that year.


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

Sir_Q said:


> What did Sayid give Locke to bring back Charlotte? He already HAD two newbs in his possession.


He left Miles behind in place of Charlotte. That's what Frank (the pilot) was chuckling over...he thought it was "shifty" to swap instead of just bring back, but he didn't like Miles anyway, so he was cool with it.


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## mightyb (Dec 5, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Apparently, they are only a few days away from the major Tsunami that occurred that year.


Are they going to integrate that into the story??

I don't know how I would feel about that either way.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

this show continues to, um, annoy me. now Syaid is working for Ben? please.

and where is my favorite smoke monster???

i'm hoping Faraday is a terminator, actually, and just hasn't been activated


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

mightyb said:


> Are they going to integrate that into the story??
> 
> I don't know how I would feel about that either way.


I don't know. I"m not searching for spoilers. I'm just saying in the timeline of the real world, that's about where they are.


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## Sir_Q (Jun 27, 2002)

jwehman said:


> He left Miles behind in place of Charlotte. That's what Frank (the pilot) was chuckling over...he thought it was "shifty" to swap instead of just bring back, but he didn't like Miles anyway, so he was cool with it.


But Locke already had captured Miles before Sayid could offer him. Two hostages are better then one right?


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Apparently, they are only a few days away from the major Tsunami that occurred that year.


It happened on December 26, 2004
2004 Indian Ocean earthquake
According to this page  Day 94 - Friday December 24th, 2004
"Confirmed Dead" & "The Economist"

So it's soon, as well as Christmas...


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

I loved Zoe Bell in this episode. 

What, you missed her? She was the female voice on the phone. Here's hoping that we soon get some crazy stunts from Miss Bell. "I'm Okay!!" LOL


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> And given that at least one character will die if she's on the island a few more weeks, that's pretty significant, if not to the whole island mystery, then certainly to her and her husband.


I assume you are talking about Sun and her pregnancy? One thought that just occurred to me. Is it possible that what was killing pregnant females was related to the island's unique magnetic properties? And now that the hatch has exploded, they can give birth on the island?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

My main question is if Hanso/Dharma know how to get to the island, and they know that the "others" killed all their people and Ben is their leader, then what took them so long to stage a mission to get Ben.

It's been years since all that happened.

Makes it seem more likely that years on the island = weeks off the island.

-smak-


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

smak said:


> My main question is if Hanso/Dharma know how to get to the island, and they know that the "others" killed all their people and Ben is their leader, then what took them so long to stage a mission to get Ben.
> 
> It's been years since all that happened.
> 
> ...


Or they had no interest in interfering until now.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> One thing that stuck in my mind was naomi's bracelet and how it was from RG or RC (as keegan pointed out). Which for some reason made me think about her voice twin Regina and how it could be her sister. So it might not have been a signal. But Regina didn't seem too distraught over Naomi's 'death' during her chats with Miles and Daniel. Just a thought.


Sayid wanted to go on the boat right after he saw this bracelet. It's as if seeing the bracelet triggered something in him. But what?


----------



## NJ_HB (Mar 21, 2007)

pjenkins said:


> this show continues to, um, annoy me. now Syaid is working for Ben? please.
> 
> and where is my favorite smoke monster???
> 
> i'm hoping Faraday is a terminator, actually, and just hasn't been activated


Sayid may be working for Ben under the same conditions Juliette was working for Ben.

Work for me or someone you loves dies.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NJ_HB said:


> Sayid may be working for Ben under the same conditions Juliette was working for Ben.
> 
> Work for me or someone you loves dies.


Or, "If I work for you I can get to somebody I hate even more. THEN I can kill you!"


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Sayid is working for Ben to "protect his friends," no?

What does that mean? His friends who made it off, or his friends who are being held prisoner/hostage on the island?


----------



## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

smak said:


> My main question is if Hanso/Dharma know how to get to the island, and they know that the "others" killed all their people and Ben is their leader, then what took them so long to stage a mission to get Ben.
> 
> It's been years since all that happened.
> 
> ...


Because they couldn't get to the island? Remember, penny's group only found the island when the hatch blew up. Maybe the same was true of the freighties?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DVDerek said:


> Because they couldn't get to the island? Remember, penny's group only found the island when the hatch blew up. Maybe the same was true of the freighties?


Perhaps Ben cut off their access after he did the purge.

Greg


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## whitmans77 (Mar 6, 2003)

I really don't think Sayid was on the course to play a full round. Obviously he was at the right place at the right time... If you catch the drift. With the club thing, I'm not even an avid golfer and I picked up on that do that leads me to believe it was done on purpose. Come on people its Lost. Next year we will figure out why the 5 iron.....


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> Sayid could also be protecting Nadia (along with 815 survivors, since she is not "friends" plural).


Actually, when Ben told Sayid that he (Sayid) had first-hand knowledge of what they (the people Ben wanted killed) would/could do, I immediately thought they had killed Nadia after Sayid found her again, and that's why he was willing to work with Ben. But then by the end of the conversation I wasn't so sure; it didn't seem like he was doing it out of revenge. But maybe it just started that way.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Maybe Sayid, being diligent and knowing his target very well, knew that he had a tendency to tell people how to play golf with wrong terminology. So when out there, he just used the wrong terminology back.

Just like Sayid, being the good assassin, knew he'd win the heart of his target by ordering an expresso.

Greg


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

The golf thing bugged me too. This after reading a lot of the _Terminator: TSCC _ "Queen's Gambit" thread thinking, "Jeez, you chess geeks. Get over it already."

Now this golf geek can't get over it.

But, I have to say, this was even more egregious because it just doesn't make a bit of sense. And could have been easily remedied by switching the club numbers. But even so, why would there be a two club difference. Who quibbles over two clubs while forgetting about the club in between?

6 is the the _new[/] loneliest number.

It didn't kill the show for me. I forgot about it by the end. Until Bryan brought it up._


----------



## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

Some thoughts disconnected from the earlier comments...

1) Someone made the point that Jack said Sawyer would take care of Kate if she went along to get Charlotte...and that Sawyer was just a pawn.....I think it was more along the lines of when Jack said he didn't want Kate to come back for him because he loved her -- he knows Sawyer will take care of Kate because he loves her.

2) There is probably some significance to Naomi's body being taken back to the plane...similar to the bunny (should this be spoilerized???). Will there be a problem when/if there are two of them?

...I think I have more thoughts, but my brain hurts right now....


----------



## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I have a feeling that we'll find out later on that whomever these people Sayid is killing, from Ben's list, are actually "bad" people, from our point of view. So far, Sayid has been presented to us as a likeable character. And ultimately, Sayid has been shown to be a stand up guy, for the most part. I know there's shades of gray all over the place in each character, but I don't think the show wants us to end up disliking Sayid. For that reason, I just think that he'll remain a sympathetic character, and we'll be shown that these people being killed weren't so nice.

Does that make Ben a sympathetic character off the island too, or is Sayid just an unwilling servant? Does Sayid eventually turn on Ben?

I think that these "flash forwards", off the island, are just the mid-point. I think they aren't near the "end" of the story, but the middle. Someone else speculated we'll see the Losties attempt to "return" to the island sooner than expected, and I concur with that. It's going to be interesting to see who goes back (do they call each other up and swing by each person's house with a big van on the way to the airport?), how they get back...and if they do get back, how they get off the island all over again....if they do.

You know, it's a wonder that the average viewer can keep up with this show. A show like "Journeyman", for example, didn't require NEARLY the mental effort to figure out, and much of the opinion about that show was it was too "smart" for TV. Really good, thought-provoking shows don't often do so well. I'm just glad this one does.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

madscientist said:


> Actually, when Ben told Sayid that he (Sayid) had first-hand knowledge of what they (the people Ben wanted killed) would/could do, I immediately thought they had killed Nadia after Sayid found her again, and that's why he was willing to work with Ben. But then by the end of the conversation I wasn't so sure; it didn't seem like he was doing it out of revenge. But maybe it just started that way.


I thought the EXACt same thing! Ben said something along the lines of "remember what happened last time you used your heart instead of your gun" and Sayid replies something like "and that is what you used to recruit me". I don't think we've seen this event yet. My guess as well is that Sayid and Nadia were reunited when the O6 were found but the "bad guys" killed Nadia (perhaps trying to kill Sayid). This cause Sayid to want revent and Ben used this emotion to get Sayid to work for him. Seems plausible


----------



## Rob64 (Aug 27, 2005)

pcguru83 said:


> Can someone remind me again who we know of the "Oceanic Six"? We've got Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid that I can remember. It seems like I'm missing someone....


Could Ben have passed off as one of the 6 being as he was with Sayid at the end


----------



## Rob64 (Aug 27, 2005)

Can anyone tell me if I missed something here but what happened to the rest of Bens group of "others" after he left them?


----------



## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

They were sent to "The Temple" which is a location we aren't sure we've seen before - if we have, we've never heard it called the temple. I was thinking maybe it's that statue we saw way back in season 2, I think.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> 2) There is probably some significance to Naomi's body being taken back to the plane...similar to the bunny (should this be spoilerized???). Will there be a problem when/if there are two of them?


Except that the bunny was not what it appeared at first.

Diane


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

gchance said:


> Just like Sayid, being the good assassin, knew he'd win the heart of his target by ordering an *espresso*.


FYP.

Actually- he ordered it wrong as well which bugged me no end.
As if there weren't already enough things about this show that bug


----------



## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

DVDerek said:


> They were sent to "The Temple" which is a location we aren't sure we've seen before - if we have, we've never heard it called the temple. I was thinking maybe it's that statue we saw way back in season 2, I think.


Wasn't that the 4 or 5 toe (don't remember) statue? That has to come into play sometime...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Cearbhaill said:


> FYP.
> 
> Actually- he ordered it wrong as well which bugged me no end.
> As if there weren't already enough things about this show that bug


If you'd actually read the thread, you'd know that "expresso" is one of gchance's biggest pet peeves and he was pointing out that Sayid said it incorrectly.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> ...It's either someone we know, or a new character...


uh....wouldn't that include just about anybody?


----------



## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> If you'd actually read the thread, you'd know that "expresso" is one of gchance's biggest pet peeves and he was pointing out that Sayid said it incorrectly.


Oh, I figured this might be coming. It's not like this is TWoP where you get banned for not reading the thread 

Still... oops, and sorry.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

brermike said:


> I thought the EXACt same thing! Ben said something along the lines of "remember what happened last time you used your heart instead of your gun" and Sayid replies something like "and that is what you used to recruit me". I don't think we've seen this event yet. My guess as well is that Sayid and Nadia were reunited when the O6 were found but the "bad guys" killed Nadia (perhaps trying to kill Sayid). This cause Sayid to want revent and Ben used this emotion to get Sayid to work for him. Seems plausible


Yeah... but this is LOST so most likely the fact that it seems plausible means we're not even in the right ballpark


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> uh....wouldn't that include just about anybody?


Right.

If it's a new character, it's pointless debating who it is.

If it's someone we know, the universe of people that know Ben, can be on the boat, and would be significant to the viewer is pretty much narrowed down to Michael.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Right.
> 
> If it's a new character, it's pointless debating who it is.
> 
> If it's someone we know, the universe of people that know Ben, can be on the boat, and would be significant to the viewer is pretty much narrowed down to Michael.


or Walt.. Or any of the dead people.. Or the stewardess. Or some minor character (similar to Inman) that could be written in in an interesting way.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

It just occured to me that we may get to see actual, real time (as real a time can be on this show) events somewhere other than the island for the first time. Are we going to see Desmond and Sayid get to the boat? I think if we do, Ben's man will jump out at us when we see him/her. Do we think the helicopter was shown out far enough to be sure it got there? My friend thought so, but I'm not so sure.


----------



## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Mr. Belboz said:


> The people on the ship work for the Hanso foundation that lost contact with the Island and their people because of Ben.


OK, the thing that doesn't quite jibe on the Hanso/Dharma (and I'm equating them as one) "losing their way to the island" is the fact that air drops of food/supplies were still being successfully made following the Oceanic crash. They obviously knew where the island was. Or someone posing as Dharma knew the location.

I'm thinking the freighter-ship represents and entirely new group we're not yet privy to. Of course, the food drops may be linked to the weird time warp effect that this week's experiment highlighted. Perhaps they were dropped a while ago and just recently landed on "island time"


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Cearbhaill said:


> FYP.
> 
> Actually- he ordered it wrong as well which bugged me no end.
> As if there weren't already enough things about this show that bug


You mistakenly fixed his post. He knew what he was saying, and was pointing out the same thing tht you noticed.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> You mistakenly fixed his post. He knew what he was saying, and was pointing out the same thing tht you noticed.


How ironic that, in pointing out a Smeek, you Smeek...


----------



## jhowell (Sep 19, 2006)

getbak said:


> It could also mean that the two clocks were synchronized on the boat, so since arriving on the island, the people from the boat have "slipped" 30 minutes, or time is moving slightly slower on the island, and the longer a person is there, the more time will slip. This seems to make more sense, and it's interesting that they're able to communicate across the time gap, but again, I'm not sure what to make of it.


I think that the fact that they can communicate in real time using radios indicates that time is running the same on the island as off of it. It could be that getting to the island involves crossing a barrier and that doing so delays whatever is crossing it, possibly by a variable amount.

It could be that flight 815 crossed the barrier in 2004 but didn't reach the island until just recently.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

milo99 said:


> ...I don't think I've ever heard of a club that allows someone to play alone- they'll pair you up with someone.. but i let that one go and just assumed he paid extra or something.


That's not unusual at a private golf club. My father, after retiring, worked at Butler National in Oak Brook, Ill., and occasionally members played alone. Very expensive to belong there, and they're never as crowded as a public or semi-private course. So there's usually no problem playing alone.


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

i think Sayid's flash forwards were out of sequence. The hit on the golf course happened after his relationship with Elsa. That is to say that, Avellino (sp?), was her boss.

Also, it seemed to me that Sayid palmed Naomi's bracelet. Maybe that was the wrong inference, but I thought he had given it to Elsa. Gotta watch again I guess, but was there anything shown to rule this out? Did we see a different inscription on Elsa's bracelet?

on the "expresso" - just GOOD writing. think about it, how many people do you know who say the word correctly? It bugs me in real life when people make that mistake, but more often than not the word comes out incorrectly. Realistic, if nothing else.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

scheckeNYK said:


> i think Sayid's flash forwards were out of sequence. The hit on the golf course happened after his relationship with Elsa. That is to say that, Avellino (sp?), was her boss.
> 
> Also, it seemed to me that Sayid palmed Naomi's bracelet. Maybe that was the wrong inference, but I thought he had given it to Elsa. Gotta watch again I guess, but was there anything shown to rule this out? Did we see a different inscription on Elsa's bracelet?
> 
> on the "expresso" - just GOOD writing. think about it, how many people do you know who say the word correctly? It bugs me in real life when people make that mistake, but more often than not the word comes out incorrectly. Realistic, if nothing else.


Sayid did take the bracelet. And I don't think he gave that bracelet to Elsa, but that Elsa had another, similar bracelet, which somehow ties her to Naomi.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> Sayid did take the bracelet. And I don't think he gave that bracelet to Elsa, but that Elsa had another, similar bracelet, which somehow ties her to Naomi.


THis is how I see it. We saw Naomi in a CIA-type situation with an unknown boss when they showed the flashback of this "organization" putting a team together to go to the island. I think it's safe to assume that it's this guy that is also Elsa's boss.

Safe to assume? What am I talking about? NOTHING's safe to assume!!!! ARGH!


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

scheckeNYK said:


> i think Sayid's flash forwards were out of sequence. The hit on the golf course happened after his relationship with Elsa. That is to say that, Avellino (sp?), was her boss.


Why would you say that? Sayid apparently has a list of people to eliminate. Why couldn't the golfer just have been another person on the list?

And Elsa's boss already knew who Sayid was. The golfer seemed surprised.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

scheckeNYK said:


> on the "expresso" - just GOOD writing. think about it, how many people do you know who say the word correctly? It bugs me in real life when people make that mistake, but more often than not the word comes out incorrectly. Realistic, if nothing else.


Oh I wasn't complaining about the writers, I specifically said it was Sayid's problem... or the person who taught him English, anyway. 

Greg


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

GOLF:
a: I caught myself analyzing the banter and choice of irons and results... and agree 100% with the critiques... I just laughed it off.

b: Sayid has a horrible swing: bends his elbow on the backswing, doesn't shift his weight, casts at the ball... he doesn't hit that green 9 times out of 10 in real life.

c: It doesn't have to be a private course. There are plenty of public high end daily fee courses ($175+) that would one would consider paying a "premium". Besides, Sayid is a grifter... his job wouldn't enable him to be a member anywhere. And if he's playing on a Tuesday, there would be no one out there. And it would be no problem at all to play by yourself without paying extra. Heck, I play at a course in Galt, CA for $20 and end up playing alone half the time.

d: sprinklers=creative license for dramatic effect

On another note: 
I found it interesting that the physicist and Lewis had to "finish their work". I get the sense that each person on that chopper had a separate agenda, that maybe only they knew. That would explain naomi with desmond's pic, miles with ben's pic, the physicist with his experiments... lewis? who knows?

And on an even out of the blue comment..
How does Cynthia, the stewardess that disappeared and reappeared in the Others' camp... how does she fit into this whole thing? They never addressed that. She gets "kidnapped", or does she sneak away? Lives in the village like it's natural. Was she planted on 815? I hope this gets answered before it's all over.

and alternate timeline.... looking pretty good now, huh?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

bruinfan said:


> c: It doesn't have to be a private course. There are plenty of public high end daily fee courses ($175+) that would one would consider paying a "premium". Besides, Sayid is a grifter... his job wouldn't enable him to be a member anywhere. And if he's playing on a Tuesday, there would be no one out there. And it would be no problem at all to play by yourself without paying extra. Heck, I play at a course in Galt, CA for $20 and end up playing alone half the time.:


Sayid told his victim that he didn't work. He received a large settlement (courtesy of Oceanic Air).


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

bruinfan said:


> c: It doesn't have to be a private course. There are plenty of public high end daily fee courses ($175+) that would one would consider paying a "premium". Besides, Sayid is a grifter... his job wouldn't enable him to be a member anywhere. And if he's playing on a Tuesday, there would be no one out there. And it would be no problem at all to play by yourself without paying extra. Heck, I play at a course in Galt, CA for $20 and end up playing alone half the time.


One of them mentioned that they were on the Seychelles, which is a group of small islands off the east coast of Africa, north of Madagascar, so it's not like he just drove down the street for a morning round of golf. It seems obvious that he was tracking the guy and found out that he was going to be in the Seychelles, so that's where he went. I don't see any reason to believe that either of them would have been lying about having spent a small fortune to be at that resort and to have some private time on the course.


----------



## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

I just want to reiterate that the label "Oceanic Six" has never been mentioned in the show, and has only been used in the promos.

The promos are not done by the producers, but by ABC instead, and so should not be taken as canon.

I am sure I smeeked, but just want to clarify that.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Squeak said:


> I just want to reiterate that the label "Oceanic Six" has never been mentioned in the show, and has only been used in the promos.
> 
> The promos are not done by the producers, but by ABC instead, and so should not be taken as canon.
> 
> I am sure I smeeked, but just want to clarify that.


Huh?

Both Hurley and Sayid said, "I'm one of the Oceanic Six."


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## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Huh?
> 
> Both Hurley and Sayid said, "I'm one of the Oceanic Six."


Oh, *****! You are right. I kept thinking they said they were one of the survirors of 815.

But you are right, Hurley did say the term -- damn.

Nevermind.


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## scubagal (Jan 19, 2003)

ok, maybe this is stupid, but am I the only one who was perplexed about the (asian?) man standing in the background/trees during one of the conversations at the helicopter...I think between Jack & rocket guy? I don't have it saved anymore, so I assume it was just a camera mistake.... but then, there aren't really ever any mistakes are there!?!?!


----------



## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

scubagal said:


> ok, maybe this is stupid, but am I the only one who was perplexed about the (asian?) man standing in the background/trees during one of the conversations at the helicopter...I think between Jack & rocket guy? I don't have it saved anymore, so I assume it was just a camera mistake.... but then, there aren't really ever any mistakes are there!?!?!


Good catch.

It is at the :55 minute mark during the conversation where Desmond is asking Lapidus if he has ever heard of Penelope Widmore, and Lapidus and Faraday exchange telling glances. During this time Jack is back somewhere talking to Juliet, and I gues it could have been Jack, but who knows. Whoever it is is standing stock still and is clearly right in the shot. 
I don't know!


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Cearbhaill said:


> Good catch.
> 
> It is at the :55 minute mark during the conversation where Desmond is asking Lapidus if he has ever heard of Penelope Widmore, and Lapidus and Faraday exchange telling glances. During this time Jack is back somewhere talking to Juliet, and I gues it could have been Jack, but who knows. Whoever it is is standing stock still and is clearly right in the shot.
> I don't know!


It's Jack and Juliet, they appear to be standing still and watching/listening to Desmond and the pilot. Juliet is probably only visible in the HD feed because she's barely on the edge of the screen.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

It's Jack. You can see both him and Juliet behind Desmond during that scene as he moves around.

It's hard to tell from these stills, but has Desmond shifts around you can clearly see Jack over his right shoulder and Juliet over his left.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

I'm a little late to the party, but I was traveling this week and only saw the episode yesterday.



> and where is my favorite smoke monster???


I wondered where Ol' Smokey has gotten to, with all of these people all over the island literally falling from the sky. Then I got it - he's too busy moving cabins around to bother with people right now. 

Seriously, interesting episode. It looks like I was alone in thinking that maybe the "doctor" at the end with Sayid might turn out to be Jack's dad. I knew Sayid was working for Ben after the "sold my soul" comment earlier on, but the thought just popped into my head during the last scene. They played with Ben's voice a little I think.

Question: wasn't the sonic protection fence turned on by Juliet? Both Locke & Co. and Sayid apparently went right through it. Just wondering.

Sayid suspects something about Naomi. He seems extraordinarily interested in her body. So does the camera - they could just as easily shown her under a blanket to begin with, but they keep showing her face. It's a little obvious, to me.

Sayid did not give the bracelet to Elsa. Please. Give your wife/girlfriend a bracelet that is inscribed "N - I'll be with you always - R.C." and see what that gets you. 

The payload rocket is a head scratcher, all right. How do physical objects get through on a delay basis, whereas communications can take place instantaneously? If the light is being bent or refracted strangely then that should be affecting the radios (and the signals Daniel both connected to and initiated). The time difference was obviously suspected by Daniel, not only because he did a test, but because he had a timer in the payload. He wasn't happy about the result, and he seems to be the only one who understands what it means. Me, I don't.

This full season will be fun to watch back to back on DVD when it eventually comes out. Things are moving.


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## scubagal (Jan 19, 2003)

well, it is obviously Jack in those pictures.. now I feel silly


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Delta13 said:


> Question: wasn't the sonic protection fence turned on by Juliet? Both Locke & Co. and Sayid apparently went right through it. Just wondering.


Take this for what it is, but I found a link to some guy's site that contains a supposed deleted scene from this episode dealing with the fence. There's even a still image, and that's sure enough what it looks like:

http://www.docarzt.com/lost-news/lost-403-the-economist-a-delet.php

It looks like this was a scene that was written, but cut prior to broadcast. Just wonder if it was cut for time, or for some other reason?

I've seen various "theories" that explain that the satellite phone is a special phone that can somehow communicate across the "time gap" in real time...but I dunno.


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

Random thought that came to me while out on a bike ride today...

Do we really know that Sayid and Ben are one (or two) of the Oceanic 6? We've seen interaction among Jack, Kate and Hurley. We haven't seen any interaction between those three and Sayid and/or Ben. For all we know, they are holed up somewhere on the island with access to the outside world where they are putting out hits on the "bad" people....


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

scubagal said:


> well, it is obviously Jack in those pictures.. now I feel silly


Me too.
I watch it on an older rear projection TV and I'm sure I miss many details


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> Random thought that came to me while out on a bike ride today...
> 
> Do we really know that Sayid and Ben are one (or two) of the Oceanic 6? We've seen interaction among Jack, Kate and Hurley. We haven't seen any interaction between those three and Sayid and/or Ben. For all we know, they are holed up somewhere on the island with access to the outside world where they are putting out hits on the "bad" people....


Sayid IS one of the Oceanic Six - if only because we were told that one would be revealed in this episode. Of course that could have been a red herring, but I doubt it.

Ben is NOT one - because he was never on the flight. We know from the money and passports that this is not the first time he's left the island and there is (obviously) a much darker secret there.


----------



## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

Ya know, right after I posted I was ready for the 'two naked people not having sex' comment. Thanks!


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> Ya know, right after I posted I was ready for the 'two naked people not having sex' comment. Thanks!


I deleted it after I posted it. It was a bit much. 

But as was said, Sayid is part of the 6, Ben is not.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Ben is NOT one - because he was never on the flight. We know from the money and passports that this is not the first time he's left the island _(...)_


While I also believe that he is not one of the six, neither of your reasons are iron-clad.

As long as we don't know who is being referred to as "The Oceanic Six", we can't be sure that Ben is not included.

And just because he has passports and money doesn't mean he's been off the island (since he was a kid).


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Apparently, they are only a few days away from the major Tsunami that occurred that year.


I'm not sure that a tsunami in the Indian Ocean would have the profound effect on a tiny island in the Pacific Ocean.


----------



## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

getreal said:


> I'm not sure that a tsunami in the Indian Ocean would have the profound effect on a tiny island in the Pacific Ocean.


No, but it would be a very convenient cover up for the authorities being unable to thoroughly investigate the decoy plane wreck in the Indian Ocean.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> And just because he has passports and money doesn't mean he's been off the island (since he was a kid).


We have a photograph that indicates otherwise.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Which photograph? The one in the "rescuer"s' possession? We have no way of knowing whether or not that was taken off-island...


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Have I missed why it matters if Ben's been off the island since he got there?

We know he had the means, and didn't he lie about being born on the island? So what does it matter if he's left or not?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

gchance said:


> Oh I wasn't complaining about the writers, I specifically said it was Sayid's problem... or the person who taught him *English*, anyway.
> 
> Greg


You mean _Italian_? His English is probably better than ours


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

The whole Sayid/Naomi/bracelet/Elsa thing still confuses me. If Sayid doesn't see the bracelet on Elsa until the flash forward, why does he get a "feeling" about it when he finds it on Naomi. At the time I was watching it, I was thinking "Wow, he recognizes that bracelet as the same one Elsa had" but then thought duh, this is flash forward, he hasn't MET Elsa (or seen the bracelet) yet.

So are we just _assuming_ (even though you can't assume anything with this show) it's part of the time-shift theory? Or does he just innately know or get a feeling about it?


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

TiVotion said:


> Take this for what it is, but I found a link to some guy's site that contains a supposed deleted scene from this episode dealing with the fence. There's even a still image, and that's sure enough what it looks like:
> 
> http://www.docarzt.com/lost-news/lost-403-the-economist-a-delet.php
> 
> ...


Cool! Thanks for the link. They probably took it out for time, but I wonder about Miles in that scene.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jenhudson said:


> The whole Sayid/Naomi/bracelet/Elsa thing still confuses me. If Sayid doesn't see the bracelet on Elsa until the flash forward, why does he get a "feeling" about it when he finds it on Naomi. At the time I was watching it, I was thinking "Wow, he recognizes that bracelet as the same one Elsa had" but then thought duh, this is flash forward, he hasn't MET Elsa (or seen the bracelet) yet.
> 
> So are we just _assuming_ (even though you can't assume anything with this show) it's part of the time-shift theory? Or does he just innately know or get a feeling about it?


My feeling was that Sayid took the bracelet so he could question the other party crashers about it (and other things that might only occur to him to ask about), only to find out that Miles didn't give a crap or seemingly know anything. Makes you wonder what he and Charlotte yakked about on the way back to the helicopter, huh?

------------

On the coffee note - at least the closed captioning got it right!


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

wprager said:


> You mean _Italian_? His English is probably better than ours


Actually, it was German - they were in Berlin.

And yes, his English probably better than yours as Naveen Andrews was born and raised in London, England.


----------



## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of the secret room, those barracks houses weren't that big. It should have been pretty obvious from the outside that there was an extra hidden room on that house. Surprised none of the other Others know about it. Or do they?


It's all in the layout, really.

The secret room in our house is pretty difficult to find despite being fairly spacious (and having a window!). One part of the house sticks out further to the front than the other and on the inside, all in a line, there's a balcony (where the stairs stick out), then the secret room's door, then the exterior wall of the next room, so it's pretty easy to assume the part sticking out is just where the stairway is, since looking into the next room you see a wall with windows in it.

About the only way you could find the room is to stand outside, study the house carefully, then go inside and count windows. Actually, the EASIER way to find it is to look for the chipped paint and weird dirt pattern on the baseboards.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jenhudson said:


> The whole Sayid/Naomi/bracelet/Elsa thing still confuses me. If Sayid doesn't see the bracelet on Elsa until the flash forward, why does he get a "feeling" about it when he finds it on Naomi. At the time I was watching it, I was thinking "Wow, he recognizes that bracelet as the same one Elsa had" but then thought duh, this is flash forward, he hasn't MET Elsa (or seen the bracelet) yet.
> 
> So are we just _assuming_ (even though you can't assume anything with this show) it's part of the time-shift theory? Or does he just innately know or get a feeling about it?


You lost me. As far as I could tell, he looked at the bracelet he got from Naomi and then put it in his pocket. When Elsa had been killed, we saw that she had on a similar bracelet. Between those two instances, did we ever see the bracelet? If not, why would you think Sayid recognized Elsa because of the bracelet?


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## Polcamilla (Nov 7, 2001)

People keep thinking of the difference between the clocks as evidence of some kind of time TRAVEL.

To me, it seems like there's more of a time disparity. Think of it as two rivers flowing side-by-side at different rates of speed. 

Imagine there are 2 boats (with passengers), one in each river. The two boats start at the same point and the boat in the faster river moves further downstream than the other boat. Now imagine a person jumps from the faster river over to the slower river. He'll land at the same fixed point in the slower river as he was in the faster river (but ahead of the boat in the slower river) and then travel slowly, so if he jumps BACK to the faster river, he'll be behind the faster river's boat.

Without anything to measure how fast he's going, the person jumping between rivers doesn't necessarily know one is traveling faster than the other. When he jumps between them, the jump is instantaneous and he's at exactly the same spot as he was before the jump. The longer he waits before jumping back to the first river, the further behind he falls, however if he keeps jumping into the slow river and right back into the fast river, he may never notice that he slows down significantly.

Most of the people on the Island have jumped into the slow river and then stayed there. Nobody (so far as we know) has jumped in, stayed for a while, and then jumped back. Time without events is fairly meaningless---other than counting the number of days on the Island, the Losties haven't marked time in any other way. No dates, birthdays, holidays, etc. They assume the time as they are presented it (a new morning each day, a sunset at night) is accurate so they've counted that and left it at that. Does Claire even know what Aaron's "birthday" is?

Until Faraday showed up with his synchronized clock experiment, nobody had any frame of reference for just precisely how fast they were traveling through time. Nobody has tried to see if time moves at the same rate on the island as off. People have just figured it did and left it at that. It's really a reasonable assumption. When I travel out of my timezone, I set my watch to the new local time and leave it at that. I don't worry that 45 hour of New York time equals 1 hour of California time.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

One data point: I think I saw Sayid wearing a watch on the island.. So at least that's more than observing sunsets, but if its all relative, time may be the same for them.

The island timer is 02:45:04 and the rocket timer is 03:16:22.
Maybe the island is moving very very fast, far from earth.. Earth is moving much slower, and there is some teleport/wormhole/tube connecting a patch of earth to this place.. Since the island is moving faster (like Buck Rogers was traveling faster than earth), time travels slower there.

Or this could all instead be something like that episode of star trek next generation where time was fractured/splintered and certain areas of space had different speeds of time. Picard reached for some old rotten fruit and screamed in pain, and when he pulled his hand back his fingernails had grown 3-4 inches long.. Maybe the area around the island is surrounded by clumps like this, and only a particular course can correctly avoid all of the anomolies.

Maybe radio signals arrive through many paths, and some indeed are slowed down, and the radio filters out the delayed versions, taking only a signal that responds to some sync signal/request within a few milliseconds.. I keep thinking back to Sayid and Hurley with their regular radio a season or so ago hearing old music. They gave us a joke so we'd dismiss it (Hurley *saying* it could be from any time, then saying he was kidding), but maybe it was a real hint.

By the way, Polcamilla, go to Youtube and search for orchid station orientation video (for an answer to why people are talking about "travel", too.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> You lost me. As far as I could tell, he looked at the bracelet he got from Naomi and then put it in his pocket. When Elsa had been killed, we saw that she had on a similar bracelet. Between those two instances, did we ever see the bracelet? If not, why would you think Sayid recognized Elsa because of the bracelet?


No, not that Sayid recognized Elsa because of the bracelet.

I seem to remember Sayid, upon going to check out Naomi's body, finding the bracelet and reading it and it seemed (IMO) that there was a spark of recognition (or a spark of something). In my twisted memory, with the flashbacks and flashforwards still confusing me, LOL, I was thinking he had already met Elsa and recognized the bracelet as being the same.

However, it was a flash FORWARD so he hadn't met Elsa yet. AND the "spark" I thought I saw must just have been him being investigative and thinking "Hmmm, this could mean something."


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Polcamilla said:


> It's all in the layout, really.
> 
> The secret room in our house is pretty difficult to find despite being fairly spacious (and having a window!). One part of the house sticks out further to the front than the other and on the inside, all in a line, there's a balcony (where the stairs stick out), then the secret room's door, then the exterior wall of the next room, so it's pretty easy to assume the part sticking out is just where the stairway is, since looking into the next room you see a wall with windows in it.
> 
> About the only way you could find the room is to stand outside, study the house carefully, then go inside and count windows. Actually, the EASIER way to find it is to look for the chipped paint and weird dirt pattern on the baseboards.


You have a secret room?!?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jenhudson said:


> However, it was a flash FORWARD so he hadn't met Elsa yet. AND the "spark" I thought I saw must just have been him being investigative and thinking "Hmmm, this could mean something."


Yes, I think the point of the scene was to draw OUR attention to the bracelet so we would recognize it when it came up later. But, this being Lost, people are assuming that any perceived anomaly must indicate a rift in the space-time continuum.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> Which photograph? The one in the "rescuer"s' possession? We have no way of knowing whether or not that was taken off-island...


It looked like it was and if they could get the photograph off, why can't they get back on easily enough.

I think the photo was taken at an airport. Ben was off the Island for some reason and got tipped off that the freighter people were after him.
That's why he didn't want to leave the Island to be operated on.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

scubagal said:


> well, it is obviously Jack in those pictures.. now I feel silly


But it gave us a nice reason to put a great shot of Desmond on the thread! Now if they could post one of Sawyer....


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

betts4 said:


> But it gave us a nice reason to put a great shot of Desmond on the thread! Now if they could post one of Sawyer....


Here you go:


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Here you go:


LOL


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Actually, it was German - they were in Berlin.
> 
> And yes, his English probably better than yours as Naveen Andrews was born and raised in London, England.


_Espresso_ is an Italian word; that's what I meant. And, yes, I know he's British -- hence the smiley in my post.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

wprager said:


> _Espresso_ is an Italian word; that's what I meant. And, yes, I know he's British -- hence the smiley in my post.


Dude, didn't you get the emoticon?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I think the photo was taken at an airport. Ben was off the Island for some reason and got tipped off that the freighter people were after him.
> That's why he didn't want to leave the Island to be operated on.


What in this picture indicates an airport? The fact that he's in line? Or the fact that he's wearing clothes that look like they're from the 70s? And he's wearing a vest. 










Greg


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I think he's coming out of the bathroom at Target in that picture.

And the fact that the monitor has no cords coming out of the back still bugs the hell out of me.

My guess? He's making trips to the mainland to steal cords.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

TiVotion said:


> I think he's coming out of the bathroom at Target in that picture.
> 
> And the fact that the monitor has no cords coming out of the back still bugs the hell out of me.
> 
> My guess? He's making trips to the mainland to steal cords.


That made me laugh. He really does have a sinister, "I just stole those cords" look on his face.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

gchance said:


> What in this picture indicates an airport? The fact that he's in line? Or the fact that he's wearing clothes that look like they're from the 70s? And he's wearing a vest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fact that he appears to be in line and it looks like he might be carrying a bag on his right side, possibly slung over his shoulder.
He also has this look like he's about to smuggle something through airport security.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> And the fact that the monitor has no cords coming out of the back still bugs the hell out of me.
> 
> My guess? He's making trips to the mainland to steal cords.


PC's on TV don't need cables. Nor do they need to be PC's. I have noticed that almost all police and governmental agencies on TV use Macintoshes. All with wireless _everything_ just like in real life.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jradford said:


> That made me laugh. He really does have a sinister, "I just stole those cords" look on his face.


You mean like this?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

mmilton80 said:


> Dude, didn't you get the emoticon?


I was replying to TonyTheTiger, and there was no smiley in his post.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

JYoung said:


> The fact that he appears to be in line and it looks like he might be carrying a bag on his right side, possibly slung over his shoulder.
> He also has this look like he's about to smuggle something through airport security.


Or he's at the unemployment office, which has budgetary problems this year and has to operate their monitors without power.



Spoiler



WAIT A MINUTE! It's DHARMA POWER, wireless power harnessed from the island.



Nothing in that photo says airport. The bag comes close, but Jack Bauer proved you don't have to be in an airport to carry a man bag. Perhaps Ben's a 24 fan.

Greg


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I'm in the camp that thinks its an airport. It appears [to me] that he does have a bag over his shoulder and he's standing in line at a ticket counter.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

unicorngoddess said:


> I'm in the camp that thinks its an airport. It appears [to me] that he does have a bag over his shoulder and he's standing in line at a ticket counter.


I would have said security checkpoint. Even without the cables in the monitor, it looks like it's sitting on an X-ray machine.


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## johnb41 (Jan 20, 2004)

My explanation of how Naomi has the photo of Desmond and Penny:

(Sorry if this has been mentioned... i read the entire thread and don't think anything like this was mentioned)

Remember the season 2 finale, with the guys in Antarctica/some snowy place? When Desmond turned the key and the sky turned purple, those guys "saw" the island; it was suddenly in their radar. They contacted Penny to say they found the island... the one where Desmond may have crashed into.

Ok, so now Penny knows the coordinates of the island. She has in possession the photo of her and Desmond.

Dharma and/or Freighters somehow get information that Penny knows where the island is. They get hold of her, and thus get possession of the Photo. The photo is given to Naomi to use when she lands on the island, thus appearing she's a good guy coming to rescue Desmond and friends.

Now, about Sayid working for Ben off the island... i think in the future, Dharma has regained control of the island, and now everyone (non-dharma people) are in danger. That's what he was warning everyone about in the S3 finale when he said everyone would die. The only way to save his (Ben's) people and Sayid's people that are still on the island, is to kill the top Dharma guys. He knows Sayid is capable of it, and Sayid wants to save his friends on the island, so he grudgingly works for Ben.

That, or Ben is killing all Dharma people for revenge...


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

gchance said:


> What in this picture indicates an airport? The fact that he's in line? Or the fact that he's wearing clothes that look like they're from the 70s? And he's wearing a vest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*snaps fingers*

That's it!

He's at the US Customs line at JFK. Later on he's heading down to Brooklyn so he and John Travolta can do a little ji-ji-ji-jive talkin'!  Wanna bet Ben's got on a sharp pair of white shoes?

(and who's better at jive talkin' than ol' Ben?)


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Even though I'm generally HIGHLY skeptical of time travel theories in this show, I was thinking about the clocks. It reminded me of Back To The Future, but in that one, Einstein travelled _forward_ in time, which made his clock one minute _behind_ Doc and Marty's. In this one, the payload clock appeared to be about 31 minutes _ahead_ of Daniel's.

I'm not sure where to go with that, just throwing it out there. In fact, I really don't think that any cohesive theory regarding time travel can be built on what we've seen so far. It's all pure conjecture. Even with the clocks, we don't know that the explanation isn't something as simple as one of them just being wrong. We never saw him synchronize them before he left the freighter. And for all we know, the payload clock is 11 hours and 29 minutes _ behind the other one. There is no am or pm or date or any other point of reference to compare the two. We know that their voice transmissions were in synch, even though there appeared to be some disparity with the arrival of the payload vs. when Regina's computer told her it had arrived._


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Even though I'm generally HIGHLY skeptical of time travel theories in this show, I was thinking about the clocks. It reminded me of Back To The Future, but in that one, Einstein travelled _forward_ in time, which made his clock one minute _behind_ Doc and Marty's. In this one, the payload clock appeared to be about 31 minutes _ahead_ of Daniel's.
> 
> I'm not sure where to go with that, just throwing it out there. In fact, I really don't think that any cohesive theory regarding time travel can be built on what we've seen so far. It's all pure conjecture. Even with the clocks, we don't know that the explanation isn't something as simple as one of them just being wrong. We never saw him synchronize them before he left the freighter. And for all we know, the payload clock is 11 hours and 29 minutes _ behind the other one. *There is no am or pm* or date or any other point of reference to compare the two. We know that their voice transmissions were in synch, even though there appeared to be some disparity with the arrival of the payload vs. when Regina's computer told her it had arrived._


_

Last time I checked, 02:00 and 03:00 indicated a.m.

_


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Last time I checked, 02:00 and 03:00 indicated a.m.


Possibly (although it clearly wasn't 2 or 3 am local time) but that still doesn't tell us that they're 31 minutes apart, it could be 23 hours and 29 minutes or [23 + some multiple of 24 hours] and 29 minutes.

Or did they establish that 31 minutes had passed between the time Regina _thought_ the payload had landed and when it actually did?

Even if that's the case, I'm not sure that it makes sense for the clock to be 31 minutes _behind_ (if we can assume that that is indeed the difference). And obviously there's a huge problem for anyone trying to espouse a consistent "time travel" theory since there was no 31 minute delay (or at all, for that matter) in their voice transmissions.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

Come on, guys- computer monitor sitting on a pass-through with no cords?
It's the repair station at Best Buy- somebody had to get 'em serviced.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

gchance said:


> What in this picture indicates an airport? The fact that he's in line? Or the fact that he's wearing clothes that look like they're from the 70s? And he's wearing a vest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks to me like he has a jacket slung over his right elbow.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

getbak said:


> One of them mentioned that they were on the Seychelles, which is a group of small islands off the east coast of Africa, north of Madagascar, so it's not like he just drove down the street for a morning round of golf. It seems obvious that he was tracking the guy and found out that he was going to be in the Seychelles, so that's where he went. I don't see any reason to believe that either of them would have been lying about having spent a small fortune to be at that resort and to have some private time on the course.


not that it really matters, but:

I'm saying that they wouldn't have to pay extra to be by themselves... just the fact that the course/resort is secluded and probably costs alot to play makes it exclusive. there could be 100 people on that course and you would never see them if they were spaced out correctly.

My point would be, I could go to this course, pay the regular green fee of probably $300+, tee off by myself, and not see a soul the whole round.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

johnb41 said:


> My explanation of how Naomi has the photo of Desmond and Penny:
> 
> Remember the season 2 finale, with the guys in Antarctica/some snowy place? When Desmond turned the key and the sky turned purple, those guys "saw" the island; it was suddenly in their radar. They contacted Penny to say they found the island... the one where Desmond may have crashed into.
> 
> Ok, so now Penny knows the coordinates of the island. She has in possession the photo of her and Desmond...


To pick up on this theory, the evil Mr. Widmore could also get a copy of Penny's photo of her and Dez. And we know that he has a hate-on for Desmond, as well as the resources to send a freighter. But why wouldn't Penny or her Dad think that Desmond might simply be lost at sea and drowned by now? Why would they continue searching for so long?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

getreal said:


> To pick up on this theory, the evil Mr. Widmore could also get a copy of Penny's photo of her and Dez. And we know that he has a hate-on for Desmond, as well as the resources to send a freighter. But why wouldn't Penny or her Dad think that Desmond might simply be lost at sea and drowned by now? Why would they continue searching for so long?


I don't think Charles Widmore cares the least bit about Desmond. Penny is searching for him on her own - she has said that with enough money and determination you can find anyone. Clearly she has both, her father has only the money. I see your point about determination being overcome by a sense of futility, but, despite the fact that we know VERY little about her search, she clearly has SOME clue about his whereabouts. She must have had some concrete reason to have been searching for him based on magnetic anomalies. So whatever it was that she found out that led her to use the listening station must have also given her reason to believe that he might still be alive.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Wow, I'm amazed. 111 posts and still no argument about whether Sayid and Elsa actually had sex, or were just lying naked in bed together.


I heard it as 'foreplay'


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> Even if that's the case, I'm not sure that it makes sense for the clock to be 31 minutes _behind_ (if we can assume that that is indeed the difference). And obviously there's a huge problem for anyone trying to espouse a consistent "time travel" theory since there was no 31 minute delay (or at all, for that matter) in their voice transmissions.


The biggest problem I have isn't so much the lack of a delay in the voice transmissions it's that coupled with her reporting the rocket as having arrived at the destination 31 minutes before it did. One or the other I can deal with but not both. Here's what it could mean:

1) There's no sensor on the rocket and she was just estimating when it would arrive (the only theory I like so far).
2) Radios let you talk to the future/past...or something.
3) Someone is a lying liar that lied.
4) The writers didn't think this through very well.
5) Gremlins.

Just to clarify...presumably the clock that physics-guy had was sync'd up with the rocket prior to launch, then it arrived on the island and it was 31 minutes behind...right? Also wouldn't his clock have been off having also traveled onto the island, or did they re-sync it?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

hapdrastic said:


> Just to clarify...presumably the clock that physics-guy had was sync'd up with the rocket prior to launch, then it arrived on the island and it was 31 minutes behind...right? Also wouldn't his clock have been off having also traveled onto the island, or did they re-sync it?


Faraday was talking with Regina while setting up the expt.
Then they both reset their clocks to "0:00:00" and press "Start" at the same time as Regina launches the payload.

Simple!

What's that? The times on the clocks indicated that the timer started around 02:00:00?

Okay, maybe not so simple.


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## EVizzle (Feb 13, 2005)

just popped in to say watching the last few episodes has been incredible. Smartest show on network TV and so much different than what else is out there...


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Maybe both clocks were on GMT?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Judging from my headache trying to figure the rocket time/distance issue out, I get a funny feeling that string theory is about to rear it's ugly head here. Just a thought. Hey, it's the next step after _A Brief History Of Time_ after all!

The timers or clocks are worse than you think. It only took about 30 seconds (in apparent real time) for the payload to travel from launch to supposed hit on target. When the rocket arrives (damn near!) on target, the clocks are different by 31 minutes. Okay. But how long was the wait between Regina saying it arrived and the actual arrival of the payload?

Ahh, we don't know. The clocks don't seem to help us very much, either. If they were synchronized at 00:00 an awful lot of time passed before that rocket finished a 30 second flight! Even synced at 02:00, there's a gap of nearly 45 minutes in island time. 76 minutes for the rocket itself.

But consider this ... Juliet takes off for Desmond at the beach, saying it will take a couple of hours. Daniel doesn't start his experiment until a little bit after Sayid leaves (10 minutes after Juliet), but because of the Locke scenes and the flashback it's hard to tell how much time passes. However, as soon as the rocket lands, Juliet shows up with Desmond.

Plus, Sayid manages to get to the barracks before the rocket lands. That had to take _some_ time. Huh.

So it took 3 hours to find Desmond. Hey, maybe he didn't see her coming.  If that time is true, then the clocks were synced at 00:00. The rocket took 2:45 roughly to get the island, incurring a 31 minute slowdown somewhere.

Now, how weird is that? And what does that mean? I dunno. I just know that only fools are enslaved by time and space. Rockets, too.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I think that given the apparent time it should have taken the rocket, I think it's most likely that the clocks were indicating time of day (clearly in another time zone if they were on 24-hour time) as opposed to having been timers counting from 0:00.

Regardless, I think the ensuing discussion of how much _we don't know_ tends to back up my point: that it's silly to base any sort of time travel theory on the clocks or to interpret them as evidence of it.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Jeff, you're clinging to this desperate fight against time issues in this story, despite the tons of hints and several *facts* that they've given us. Give in, resistance is futile, and will only hurt tour enjoyment later when they've shown you enough pieces that you can't ignore them.  Have you watched the Orchid orientation video yet? I dunno how you can still think otherwise if you have.
(read: *travel*)

As for Delta's investigation, I wonder if we can find two more data points:
1) Any helicopter pilots out there? How far could you go (round trip) in even a light storm on the gas tank typical for that kinda helicopter, with 4 people? That data would at least give us some rough idea about the minimum bounds for the distance the rocket had to travel (it presumably went pretty straight, unlike the winding helicopter). That'd tell us if we're talking a 30 second trip over real space, or 30 minutes, or hours, then we can apply that to weird time effect theories with at least some frame of reference.

2) Does anyone own either of those timers? The one on the left looks unique enough that someone could tell if they owned one. Is it just a timer? Is it a clock? Does it have a 24 hour mode?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I'm of the opinion that they are clocks, not timers. There was no "mark" to reset to zero. Plus, the rocket was fired on very short notice. Not much time for Regina to insert and seal a zeroed stopwatch before launch. Plus, if this is a frieghter, she would probably have to walk quite a distance to take care of this. More likely, she was on the bridge and hit a couple of buttons to launch a pre-staged experiment.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Regardless, I think the ensuing discussion of how much _we don't know_ tends to back up my point: that it's silly to base any sort of time travel theory on the clocks or to interpret them as evidence of it.


If that's the case, we can never discuss Lost. There's a LOT we don't know. 

One big thing I was wondering was if they're supposed to leave on the same heading they came in on, isn't hovering over the water at about 50 feet different than where they came in? They parachuted in, for gosh sakes, not to mention that with the turbulence they were all over the place anyway.

Greg


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gchance said:


> One big thing I was wondering was if they're supposed to leave on the same heading they came in on, isn't hovering over the water at about 50 feet different than where they came in? They parachuted in, for gosh sakes, not to mention that with the turbulence they were all over the place anyway.
> 
> Greg


What do those have to do with each other? Do you think that "heading" also implies altitude? Does it mean that they have to follow the same meandering, storm-blown course leaving that they did coming in?

I think it's just the same as when Ben told Michael/Walt how to leave. They had to maintain 283 degrees (or whatever it was). Altitude or starting point don't matter, apparently.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Jeff, you're clinging to this desperate fight against time issues in this story, despite the tons of hints and several *facts* that they've given us. Give in, resistance is futile, and will only hurt tour enjoyment later when they've shown you enough pieces that you can't ignore them.  Have you watched the Orchid orientation video yet? I dunno how you can still think otherwise if you have.
> (read: *travel*)


It's not that I don't think it's a possibility, but there have been hints about lots of things that we have found out later we had been misled about (or at least had doubts raised about). We don't know for sure what was going on in the orchid video. Certainly not enough to base explanations for wild theories about alternate timelines when there are simpler explanations possible. Speculation and conjecture might be interesting, but what makes it difficult to discuss such theories is that they can't be disproven. If we accept that time travel is possible, without knowing any more details about its rules and limitations in the "Lost" universe, then it can be used to explain anything, and there's no way to refute its plausibility.

I can accept some supernatural things because we know more about them. We know that people heal from things very quickly on the island. But we also know that there are some limits to that. People get shot and die, attacked by monsters and die, get killed in plane crashes, etc. So we can't make the jump from accelerated healing from injuries and sickness to people coming back from the dead; but if we didn't know that, then perhaps we could. Someone could speculate that Libby will be revealed as one of the Oceanic Six. But we can obviously disprove that because we know she is dead.

My point is, we just don't know enough from the hints they've given us to throw out wild alternate timeline theories for every mysterious occurrence on the show. It's not so much that I'm fighting against the time travel theories, I'm simply sticking to the possibility that there's an explanation that doesn't violate how we know things work in the real world. When someone says that Jack's father really is alive in the "alternate timeline" in TTLG, there's really no counter-argument. If we toss out what we know about what's possible in the real world, and don't have enough information to know how far those rules are bent within the "Lost" world, then anything is possible. To me, when any explanation is possible, it just doesn't make any sense to come up with explanations for things we don't know. Hell, Jack himself could be the guy in the coffin.

Btw, what "facts" are you referring to?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

gchance said:


> If that's the case, we can never discuss Lost. There's a LOT we don't know.
> 
> Greg


There's a difference between discussing things and drawing definitive conclusions. I'm not saying the difference in the clocks, along with a lot of other things, isn't an interesting basis for speculation about time travel. But with all of the unknowns, it seems that some people are still concluding that time travel is the only, and obvious explanation.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> What do those have to do with each other? Do you think that "heading" also implies altitude? Does it mean that they have to follow the same meandering, storm-blown course leaving that they did coming in?
> 
> I think it's just the same as when Ben told Michael/Walt how to leave. They had to maintain 283 degrees (or whatever it was). Altitude or starting point don't matter, apparently.


I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Don't imply I'm stupid just because I don't know. Geez, dude.

Greg


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Cearbhaill said:


> Come on, guys- computer monitor sitting on a pass-through with no cords?
> It's the repair station at Best Buy- somebody had to get 'em serviced.


Best theory so far. It also explains the look of combined misery and surrender on his face.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

By the way, and I'm sure this has been mentioned, but Elsa said she shot Sayid to wound him; she wanted to question him later. Meanwhile the shot was about an inch from his heart and she was whipping around when she made the shot. Seemed a bit crazy for me. Are we to assume that the bullet simply punctured Sayid's lung?


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

The latest episode of The Official Lost Podcast confirms what jkeegan has been saying for 2 episode threads now:



Spoiler



Carton and Damon say that everyone wondering how a polar bear could end up in Tunisia should check out the Orchid Dharma Video, and that the ideas introduced in the video will be brought to the general audience in an upcoming episode.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Penny doesn't care about Desmond any longer. She is living with the guy who used to be living with Sarah Connor, BEFORE she moved eight years into the future. There's your time travel angle.

Maybe I am not seeing things clearly enough, BUT, I was inder the impression that Sayid was trying to kill Elsa's boss. When she confronts Sayid, she says, "You are here to kill HIM, aren't you?" She says HIM. Well, he killed her, which presumably he could have done at almost any time if she was really his intended target. That leave his current assignmant unaccomplished, and Ben has yet another name for him, even though he hasn't completed his current assignment, and he is badly wounded. When Elsa was on the phone, she said, somewhat angrily, "You were supposed to page me at," some specific time, suggesting whoever was on the telephone was late with the page, and not greatly her superior. She then seems to suggest that she will be interrogating Sayid, which is how he knows that "they" know about him, specifically HIM--not just someone.

Hurley's fake-out was great, and unexpected, by me at least.

I fear that this whole show will be like one of those puzzles that even after it is complete, you can't really "see" it, then you blink, and suddenly it's all there. Or maybe it's like those magic eye things that you have to stare at for a while and only then does it slowly become a picture.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> We don't know for sure what was going on in the orchid video. Certainly not enough to base explanations for wild theories about alternate timelines when there are simpler explanations possible.


Well, from the Orchid video,


Spoiler



They show a rabbit appear out of nowhere, with the same number as the one he's holding (15). Everyone seems VERY nervous about this. The woman says "Oh god, it's 15!!! He screams "Don't let them near each other". He says "When did you set the shift?" and she says "negative 20".. (a countdown timer is counting down, and when it would reach 0 is exactly 20 seconds after the rabbit appeared). C'mon, what other explanation can there be (that's worth talking about) other than that they "shifted" this rabbit back in time 20 seconds?? (and they seem to have shifted it in space too, or maybe it's just the rotation of the earth during that time, but without doing math to figure out how fast the crust of the earth rotates within 20 seconds, I'll be lazy and say I think they're shifting it through space too).

The interesting part is that he then says "How long?" and she says "Nine minutes, but we're still learning how to..".. What's that mean? How long it's "trip" is for, like it's a round-trip journey? Either way, that's _well worth talking about_, and very interesting, whether we have an ironed-out-to-the-point-of-now-being-boring explanation in front of us or not.. (luckily, we have no such explanation yet, so it's still interesting!).

C'mon.. That's time travel. They shifted that rabbit back in time.





> Speculation and conjecture might be interesting, but what makes it difficult to discuss such theories is that they can't be disproven.


We're not exactly calculating the correct coolant temperature for a nuclear reactor here, we're having fun talking about Lost.. Plus, we can disprove lots of things by talking about this video.. We can disprove that there's no time travel within the Lost universe!  We can disprove theories like "I think the bunnies were only used for fertility experiments, and it's crazy to read into it and think they use them for anything more.". And I know, you were saying that the time travel theories themselves can't be disproven, but we can certainly scoff at them when they sound crazy, right? (like when someone says there are tons of parallel timelines which would kill any point to the show.. we can scoff at that! Other theories, that aren't as crazy, could certainly be talked about, even productively!)



> If we accept that time travel is possible, without knowing any more details about its rules and limitations in the "Lost" universe, then it can be used to explain anything, and there's no way to refute its plausibility.


Only by a boring person, who we'd ignore. Relax.. no one is saying Jack's dad will be brought back as a living character from a parallel universe. (They'll say he'll be brought back another way..  ).



> ...
> 
> My point is, we just don't know enough from the hints they've given us to throw out wild alternate timeline theories for every mysterious occurrence on the show.


I haven't read any "timeline" theories in this thread for at least 4-5 days.. We're talking about time travel (in the Orchid video), time delays and relativity (the rocket), etc. And again - none of us here are doing that..

Once something is established, like that time travel is possible (Orchid), then maybe it's fun to wonder if the food drops were done in a clever way to plan for the next 30 food drops by just dropping them and then sending them through time.. but it's not a "this is the only way they could have done it" type assumption..



> It's not so much that I'm fighting against the time travel theories, I'm simply sticking to the possibility that there's an explanation that doesn't violate how we know things work in the real world.


I'm 100% with ya there when it comes to things like psychics, ghost-whisperers, Eko Bible moments, etc. In fact the show has done an incredible job doing that, giving plausible explanations both ways.. (even Locke's legs - the DVD commentary said that no one noticed that in John's flashback to his chat with the prostitute on the phone, that he had a machine next to him that was supposed to do some electro-therapy for his legs, possibly half-explaining how his legs could work, etc).

But there's no doubting that people seem to heal on the island, and that North seems wrong on the compasses there, and that there's a floating smoke thing.. Now we _see_ some weird time thing with the rabbit, and more importantly we see a huge time discrepancy with the timing of the launching of the rocket and the arrival of the rocket, and we're not supposed to accept that or talk about it? That's right there, in front of us.. the writers handed it to us on a silver platter to analyze.. It'd be pitiful if there was some "less interesting" explanation like that the girl on the ship was playing a practical joke on Dan, and deliberately launched it much later, with a deliberately wrong clock.. That'd be flat out _bad writing_, and could explain away anything. Nope, we've been shown stuff.. I don't know how much clearer they had to be without ruining the fun of it.. say "hey, let's turn on the rabbit time travel machine"?



> If we toss out what we know about what's possible in the real world, and don't have enough information to know how far those rules are bent within the "Lost" world, then anything is possible. To me, when any explanation is possible, it just doesn't make any sense to come up with explanations for things we don't know. Hell, Jack himself could be the guy in the coffin.


And anyone suggesting that Jack was the guy in the coffin, without an interesting reason to suggest it, would look like an idiot.. This isn't just a boring put-the-bland-pieces-of-a-simple-jigsaw-puzzle-together exercise.. it's interesting because we're people, thinking about this, and hopefully trying to put together interesting ideas based on what we're shown.



> Btw, what "facts" are you referring to?


Facts that there are time-issues going on on the island:

The rocket didn't arrive when the girl on the radio said it did
The clocks/timers were different
Dan was concerned that the clocks were different.. (in other words, it wasn't a mistake.. He either expected them to be the same, or worse, expected them to be more different.. either way, time issues.
The Orchid video's shift
Desmond (and the audience) see future events before they happen, and he changes some of them
A woman in a ring store knows that Desmond will end up on an island pushing a button that saves the world, and that he'll turn a failsafe key.
That woman knows a man with red shoes will die imminently

_*Hints*_ that time-issues exist on the island include the name Mitelos(sp?) - an anagram for Lost Time, and possibly Hurley's comment to Sayid when they heard an old 50's radio station on the radio. (and I'm sure there are others I've forgotten).


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TheMerk said:


> The latest episode of The Official Lost Podcast confirms what jkeegan has been saying for 2 episode threads now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Woohoo!!


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> I'm of the opinion that they are clocks, not timers. There was no "mark" to reset to zero. Plus, the rocket was fired on very short notice. Not much time for Regina to insert and seal a zeroed stopwatch before launch. Plus, if this is a frieghter, she would probably have to walk quite a distance to take care of this. More likely, she was on the bridge and hit a couple of buttons to launch a pre-staged experiment.


The problem with this idea is that it invalidates Daniel's reaction to the difference in the clocks. After all, who knows what time it was when the clocks were put in the rocket, or even what time zone? Not much of a test if the clocks aren't synchronized, I'm thinking.

Besides, I think I know the answer to how they were synced: Daniel did it remotely. We don't know what piece of equipment he put on the tripod, or what it does, but it obviously communicates.

Daniel: (pushes button on unit) "I'm all set here, I have a fix. Are you locked in?"
Regina: "Getting your signal pretty clear."

Daniel had a fix on the rocket, or more likely, the electronics on it. What else would he have a fix on? His gizmo could automatically sync the clocks as part of a launch sequence, no buttons need to be pushed. If you'll pardon the ghastly pun, it's not exactly rocket science. 



jeff125va said:


> I think that given the apparent time it should have taken the rocket, I think it's most likely that the clocks were indicating time of day (clearly in another time zone if they were on 24-hour time) as opposed to having been timers counting from 0:00.
> 
> Regardless, I think the ensuing discussion of how much we don't know tends to back up my point: that it's silly to base any sort of time travel theory on the clocks or to interpret them as evidence of it.


I know you'd rather wish the time problems go away, Jeff. I'm afraid I'm not going to make you feel any better. *The very test Daniel tried proves there are time issues.* Whether because of time travel, wormholes, the 11th Dimension of String Theory, or Emperor Ming and some flying monkeys we don't know and may NEVER know. I don't mean the 31 minute time difference; I mean the fact that Daniel launches rockets with clocks in them specifically to test time differences.

There is no other reason for the clocks to exist - they are the payload.

Hey, in the real world things like the smoke monster AND ranch dressing that can last 7 years after opening without refrigeration don't exist.  But I hear you - I would like the answer to be reasonably reasonable myself. Some of the alternate timeline stuff has been absolutely bizarre and sometimes ridiculous, but time has been mentioned over and over in _Lost_. We're past hints now.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Well said.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I just re-watched one of the "enhanced" episodes -- the one with the rescue team's flashbacks. One interesting tid-bit from that:


Spoiler



The woman with Faraday when he's watching the footage of the sunken wreck is not his wife but his "keeper".



Wonder what that all means?


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Facts that there are time-issues going on on the island:
> 
> The rocket didn't arrive when the girl on the radio said it did
> The clocks/timers were different
> ...


Also: from last week:
the picture frames
the polar bear skeleton in the desert
the crash site wreckage (not fake! i think)
and for me, the thing that set me off watching last week's episode was the physicist watching the plane wreckage footage and crying,as if he knew something... he hadn't been to the island yet, but he was crying like he knew something we are soon going to find out (soon? who am i fooling, this is LOST) from his time on the island.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

bruinfan said:


> Also: from last week:
> the picture frames
> the polar bear skeleton in the desert
> the crash site wreckage (not fake! i think)
> and for me, the thing that set me off watching last week's episode was the physicist watching the plane wreckage footage and crying,as if he knew something... he hadn't been to the island yet, but he was crying like he knew something we are soon going to find out (soon? who am i fooling, this is LOST) from his time on the island.


According to the enhanced episode that aired, that footage was BEFORE Faraday visited the island, which I found very interesting. And yes, that woman was not his wife.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

pcguru83 said:


> According to the enhanced episode that aired, that footage was BEFORE Faraday visited the island, which I found very interesting. And yes, that woman was not his wife.


exactly. it was before, because he was watching wreck footage. but he was crying, which at first made me think he had been on the island, but he had not, but i bet he has on some alternate timeline.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

What was wrong with picture frames...did I miss that part?


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## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> What was wrong with picture frames...did I miss that part?


Some of the frames were different, and several were moved around between the time Miles went up the stairs and when he returned.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> I just re-watched one of the "enhanced" episodes -- the one with the rescue team's flashbacks. One interesting tid-bit from that:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



Faraday went crazy when he got off the island, and went into the 'bin with Hurley. When he got out, he was assigned a "keeper". Maybe it was because he actually saw the smoke monster or Jacob, OR, someone sent him a link to the Lindsay Lohan nude pics.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gchance said:


> I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Don't imply I'm stupid just because I don't know. Geez, dude.
> 
> Greg


Didn't mean to imply you were stupid. Just didn't understand your question when used in the context of the word "heading."


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Faraday went crazy when he got off the island, and went into the 'bin with Hurley. When he got out, he was assigned a "keeper". Maybe it was because he actually saw the smoke monster or Jacob, OR, someone sent him a link to the Lindsay Lohan nude pics.


Even if you're kidding you're going to confuse some people here.. dude, it was only like five posts ago that people expressed confusion about the order of Faraday's events.. He saw the footage at home crying, _then_ became part of the mission to go to the island.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> I'm 100% with ya there when it comes to things like psychics, ghost-whisperers, Eko Bible moments, etc. In fact the show has done an incredible job doing that, giving plausible explanations both ways..


Except that they DID show the psychic doing his thing, for real. There was no ambiguity there.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

MickeS said:


> Except that they DID show the psychic doing his thing, for real. There was no ambiguity there.


which psychic, Claire's or Miles? Claire's was fake..

Miles, I agree, seems troublingly compelling.. He at least looks like he believes he's legit, and something did fall in that dead kid's room.. Their only outs there are to say that someone was hiding in the next room, or remote telekinisis(sp).. I'd prefer that to ghosts!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

(or, Miles hallucinates)


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

And how did he verify the details of Naomi's death other than communicating with her?


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Anything from the 'enhanced' episode that aired on 2/21?


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