# Game Of Thrones 5-31-2015 Hardhome



## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

This was by far the best episode so far this year. The White Walkers are truly bada** zombies! I hope the Walking Dead writers were taking notes


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## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

Just incredible!


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

That might get a second watch. Not because I feel like I missed anything, but because how good it was.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Two things I learned tonight. White Walkers cannot swim and Valyrian steel is as good as Dragon glass! Incredible episode!


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Wow.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

So I guess obsidian is an ingredient in valyrian steel?


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

wedgecon said:


> This was by far the best episode so far this year. The White Walkers are truly bada** zombies! I hope the Walking Dead writers were taking notes


I think the zombie dudes are Wights, the white walkers are the boss guys that aren't just reanimated dead people


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

danterner said:


> Wow.


That's exactly what I posted on FB after watching it.

Wow. What an episode!


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Eh. The Wights/White Walkers are my least favorite part of GoT. Not looking forward to them having a bigger presence.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

SullyND said:


> Eh. The Wights/White Walkers are my least favorite part of GoT. Not looking forward to them having a bigger presence.


Well, considering the whole series started by telling us "These are the guys who are coming to destroy the world," I suspect you're in for a pretty big disappointment...


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Wow, that was intense!


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

I got a World War Z vibe as the horde came running towards the fort. Definitely a fast zombie canon.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, considering the whole series started by telling us "These are the guys who are coming to destroy the world," I suspect you're in for a pretty big disappointment...


That's what Martin is going to do too. Have all this politicking and such go for naught when winter comes and the white walkers kill everyone in Westeros.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

It's too easy to forget the first half of the episode. "Yes, my brother killed your father..." that was a great scene.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dtivouser said:


> It's too easy to forget the first half of the episode. "Yes, my brother killed your father..." that was a great scene.


Agreed. Tyrion and Dany was among the best things we've seen in the series to date, and then it went and got totally overshadowed by the battle at Hardhome.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I think it is amusing with both GoT and The Walking Dead that some people's measure of it being a good episode is directly tied to how much zombie action there is... 

Don't get me wrong, I liked it but since it happens so rarely in GoT - whenever the White Walkers and their minions show up, I always have a momentary feeling of - wait, what show is this? and it really does feel like the whoever did the special effects for World War Z is also working on this...

Tyrion Lannister? OMG enough with the frakkin' wine already 

My biggest and favorite part of this episode?
Realizing what a phenomenal actress Lena Headey is.
When I stop and compare this to the Terminator series? 
wow. She is amazing.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tommen is pouting in his room and won't eat. What a tool!

Where's Varys? I miss him!

Not surprised that Valerian Steel can kill White Walkers. The main ingredient in how to kill them seems to be Dragons and Valerians had plenty of those! But a good discovery nonetheless.

More foreshadowing for Ollie. You just know he's going to misinterpret what Sam told him.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Wow, that was awesome. That last 10-15 minutes was on caliber with typical episode 9 content. The ways the snow cloud just drifted off of the plateau was so suspenseful. You knew what was coming, but at the same time, you had no idea what to expect.

I'm glad the giant made it out. For a bit there (especially when he stopped at the shore), I thought he was going to end up getting overwhelmed and become a wight. That would have been horrifying. But still, my recollection was that Mance has over 100,000 wildlings, right? And they only evacuated like 5,000 + however many managed to escape after reconsidering their situation, right? That's going to be a lot of freaking zombies to deal with.

So, Ramsay's going to sneak into Stannis' camp with 20 men. What's he going to do there? My guess it he'll end up killing or seriously wounding Shireen. Melisanre seems like she's been pretty much the real thing with her magic and visions. If she says or even suggests Stannis can't take Winterfell without sacrificing Shireen, then I'm inclined to believe her. However, I can neither see Stannis agreeing to sacrifice her, not can I see him losing the battle in the end. So it would seem Ramsay could come in and more or less kill her, and then Stannis can agree to use her dying body for one last good cause. 

The question then is still, how does her grayscale come into play? It's been talked about so much for the last 4 seasons, something has to come of it. Is her's contageous like the others (is that part of why they kept her locked up? or was it just because she looked hideous in her mom's eyes...I always wondered why stannis would agree to that), or not anymore since it's essentially been cured? If contageous, then does Ramsay contract it while killing her, then return to Winterfell, slowly go mad while waiting out the seige, finally slaughter everyone from within? I'm expecting episiode 9 to be big, but this is a much slower plan and wouldn't unfold next episode, so maybe stannis loses again but this is a longer term outcome

Another possibility for the whole situation is that they capture Ramsay during his attack. Then in a poetic turn of events (somewhat similar to how Reek helped capture Moat Cailin), Melisanre does some spell that causes Ramsay to do a trojan-horse attack...he returns to Winterfell and then slaughters from the inside. It just seems like one way or the other, someone is going to have to take Winterfell from within, since they've made such an issue over how strong it is, and how easily a smaller army can defend it from a much larger one.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Tommen is pouting in his room and won't eat. What a tool!


Didn't Qyburn say that Kevan is already in Kings Landing (or did he just say he was summoned and is on the way)? I never got a sense of how shrewd a guy he is, but it seems like he'd be advising Tommen to do SOMETHING other than pouting in his chambers.


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

Cainebj said:


> I think it is amusing with both GoT and The Walking Dead that some people's measure of it being a good episode is directly tied to how much zombie action there is...


It's a measure for me not because of the action (but that was still great), but because of how this is what the show started with in the first episode. Five seasons of talking about it and finally a payoff.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

They did mention on the show that Shirin is not contagious.

I wonder how the Giant is going to fit on these boats!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Didn't Qyburn say that Kevan is already in Kings Landing (or did he just say he was summoned and is on the way)? I never got a sense of how shrewd a guy he is, but it seems like he'd be advising Tommen to do SOMETHING other than pouting in his chambers.


As I understand it, Kevan is already in King's Landing and acting as the Hand. He refused to come visit Cersei. So this gives you an idea that much time has passed.

Loved the smile on Arya's face when she was sent off to kill someone. That girl is getting creepier and creepier!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Didn't Qyburn say that Kevan is already in Kings Landing (or did he just say he was summoned and is on the way)? I never got a sense of how shrewd a guy he is, but it seems like he'd be advising Tommen to do SOMETHING other than pouting in his chambers.


It sounded like he was there. Qyburn told Cersei that he implored Kevan to come see Cersei but Kevan was having none of it. Can't say I am surprised, he made it clear he wouldn't work for Tommen is Cersei was around.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> It sounded like he was there. Qyburn told Cersei that he implored Kevan to come see Cersei but Kevan was having none of it. Can't say I am surprised, he made it clear he wouldn't work for Tommen is Cersei was around.


Good point. So maybe Kevan isn't all that unhappy with the current situation. He's there more or less defending the Lannister interests, but not particularly concerned with rescuing Cersei any time soon.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Can somebody explain to me the thin man's gambling business? I didn't quite understand it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Good point. So maybe Kevan isn't all that unhappy with the current situation. He's there more or less defending the Lannister interests, but not particularly concerned with rescuing Cersei any time soon.


And I suspect Tommen would just get in his way, so Tommen off pouting in his room probably works for him anyway.


Anubys said:


> Can somebody explain to me the thin man's gambling business? I didn't quite understand it.


It's basically life insurance for merchants. You pay him a premium. If you die while on your journey, your family gets a payout. What's brought him to the League of Assassins' attention is that he takes the premiums, but doesn't (or doesn't always) make the payouts.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Memo to self: do not make a homosexual joke/remark to Tormund.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Can somebody explain to me the thin man's gambling business? I didn't quite understand it.


He's an insurance salesman.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> He's an insurance salesman.


So what happened with the guy who was trying to give him the money? the man complained that he hasn't had an accident in 18 tries. Why is that bad?!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> So what happened with the guy who was trying to give him the money? the man complained that he hasn't had an accident in 18 tries. Why is that bad?!


I forget the particulars, but I think it was pretty obvious to the gambler the guy was going to get himself killed and was trying to shore up his creds.

_"I won't die, I have survived 18 trips. See?"_


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> So what happened with the guy who was trying to give him the money? the man complained that he hasn't had an accident in 18 tries. Why is that bad?!


Just guessing, but I think the insurance guy didn't like either the proposed route or the manifest, and so declined to underwrite the trip. It's the nature of insurers to be choosy about who/what they insure.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> I forget the particulars, but I think it was pretty obvious to the gambler the guy was going to get himself killed and was trying to shore up his creds.
> 
> _"I won't die, I have survived 18 trips. See?"_


Ah. I see. So he was buying himself a $10,000,000 payout and was going to make sure he sinks. Then his family gets the money. OK. Makes sense. Thanks!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> So what happened with the guy who was trying to give him the money? the man complained that he hasn't had an accident in 18 tries. Why is that bad?!


I'll have to go back and get a freeze frame of the map. It seems once he looked at the map, he knew he wasn't interested. I wonder if there's anything we'd recognize on there.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

So much happened this episode I am going to need a rewatch. I love Jorah so I'm sad Dany isn't going to forgive him but Tyrion advised her dead on with his situation. You can't kill someone that devoted to you but you can't have him by your side as you rule either. It's a no win. And Dany's face when Tyrion said "I suspect he's in love with you" was  for me. I can't help it I was rooting for them. 

Theon! FINALLY telling Sansa he didn't kill her brothers. What happens now. Does this finally give Sansa the motivation to take control of her situation. I'm hoping for a corkscrew to Ramsay's neck sooner rather than later. 

The battle at the end. I was cringing and sitting straight up on my chaise holding my face for most of it. I kept saying "get out of there already" and wanting it to end but at the same time it was so good. I'm sad for the wildling woman that sent her kids off but the second she told them to go and she was right behind them I said "goner" so that was a bit predictable which this show normally never is for me. Those white walkers are scary as hell looking. I knew they were but we've had so few scenes that gave us such great close ups of their faces. And anyone that dies they just wave a hand and suddenly more wights? Is that how that works. That's not good at all. Thank God the giant didn't die. Speaking of, is he the last one? 

Cercei is getting everything she deserves. I hope they leave her there. But can we somehow get Margaery and Loras out now? If they confess they are freed or just given a lighter sentence?

Okay more later! Only two left? I'm so upset. I need more of this show each season!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Tommen is pouting in his room and won't eat. What a tool!


So, do we believe Qyburn? Is he a reliable source of information on what's happening outside the Red Keep?

I figured Tommen would be rousing the army already. He was prepared to for Margery, now with his mother gone too, being young and hot headed with power could be a dangerous thing (see: Joffrey).

Someone must've advised restraint somewhere...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> So, do we believe Qyburn? Is he a reliable source of information on what's happening outside the Red Keep?
> 
> I figured Tommen would be rousing the army already. He was prepared to for Margery, now with his mother gone too, being young and hot headed with power could be a dangerous thing (see: Joffrey).
> 
> Someone must've advised restraint somewhere...


I believe him but I'm also attuned to the possibility that he is lying 

Tommen has refused to eat with Margery in jail, so it's within his MO. On second thought, he and Sansa would have been great together!

Kevan doesn't seem to be the kind of guy who would advise to be hot-headed and start killing people. So the story fits so far.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> So, do we believe Qyburn? Is he a reliable source of information on what's happening outside the Red Keep?


Qyburn is not really a power player. It seems to me most people probably wouldn't want much to do with the guy, and Cersei is the only one taking an interest in him. Because of that, I'm pretty sure he's loyal to her and trust what he told her was the truth (or at least as much as he knows of it)

I'm STILL wanting to know what's going to happen with The Mountain. When Qyburn was talking about "there is a way out" and he was being very vague...I was waiting for his experiment to have something to do with it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, Tommen is nothing like Joffrey. He's basically a little wimp. Without Margaery egging him on, I doubt he would do much of anything dramatic.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

dtivouser said:


> It's too easy to forget the first half of the episode. "Yes, my brother killed your father..." that was a great scene.


Amazing scene between those two. One forgets how much history has happened between their families. And I was thrilled that Dani recognizes the value in Tyrion, and quickly. I really didn't want to wait episodes for her to enlist him.



Cainebj said:


> I think it is amusing with both GoT and The Walking Dead that some people's measure of it being a good episode is directly tied to how much zombie action there is...


I think they do a good job of balancing this. There is no doubt the Others are key to the story (Act I, Scene 1, for example). But for those of us who aren't zombie story fans, they keep it from being the only story, while every once in a while, having a monstrous scene. And what a scene it was!



LordKronos said:


> Wow, that was awesome. That last 10-15 minutes was on caliber with typical episode 9 content.


I was thinking that same thing. This was an Ep9 type hour, just off the charts. Can't imagine how powerfully this season may end!



Anubys said:


> I wonder how the Giant is going to fit on these boats!


Hanging on the side all the way back?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I'm STILL wanting to know what's going to happen with The Mountain. When Qyburn was talking about "there is a way out" and he was being very vague...I was waiting for his experiment to have something to do with it.


They've been teasing us with Mountainstein, so he has to be the one that will free Cersei.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Do we have any idea how many White Walkers there are in the show? They have an army that is too big (and ever growing) to beat, so the key must be killing off the main white walkers so that the wights just kind of drop without a puppet-master controlling them. They better get more dragon glass pronto. Great episode - easily the best of the season. Can't wait to see what Ramsay has planned with only 20 men against an army.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The white walkers were some baaaad dudes. They should have their own theme music when they show up. I liked the one at the end, as he brought the dead back to life, staring at Jon Snow with a look that said "You want to mess with ME?"

Tommen is the Pee-Wee Herman of kings.

The Lord Of Bones should have chosen his words better. [ChrisTucker]He got f******cked up![/ChrisTucker]

I hate Cercei but she's boring in prison.

Is Ramsay suddenly a Seal Team Six leader or something? Have we seen him in battle?

This was the best episode of the season but it's kind of sad that the brilliant Tyrion/Danerys scenes were overshadowed by the walkers battle scenes.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> They've been teasing us with Mountainstein, so he has to be the one that will free Cersei.


He could do a hulk smash through the wall or rip out the bars on the window (she had a window, didn't she), but that seems like it would be incredibly cheesy.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Azlen said:


> That's what Martin is going to do too. Have all this politicking and such go for naught when winter comes and the white walkers kill everyone in Westeros.


That was my thought after watching this episode. Wow, all that infighting and battle for the throne and the ultimate battler is going to be EVERYONE vs. the White Walkers and they are going to have to get along.

This season was kind of dragging, but then....WOW!! A lot happened between the battle and the end and Tyrion charming Dany into making him her adviser. And of course Cersei being royally screwed by both her supposed friends and the religious nuts. Shows you that her friends are almost non existent at this point


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

So is the "younger" white walker who raised his arms at the end to reanimate the dead the baby we saw being turned into a while walker a while back? That was my assumption. 

Pretty plodding season until now. I hope it stays intense for the final couple of episodes. I'm not sure I can take two hours of people whining in prison cells.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> So is the "younger" white walker who raised his arms at the end to reanimate the dead the baby we saw being turned into a while walker a while back? That was my assumption.


Wasn't one of those children a white walker (as opposed to a wight)? I was thinking maybe that was Craster's child.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Theon! FINALLY telling Sansa he didn't kill her brothers. What happens now. Does this finally give Sansa the motivation to take control of her situation. I'm hoping for a corkscrew to Ramsay's neck sooner rather than later.


I'm betting later, much later. First we have to see how Ramsay's guerrilla mission turns out. But, could be that while Ramsay is away, Sansa can do some plotting, and maybe Brienne shows up too. I think Sansa has become much more formidable after being abused twice and under the tutelage of Balish.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Wasn't one of those children a white walker (as opposed to a wight)? I was thinking maybe that was Craster's child.


Ohh... if so I didn't notice! I was wondering what was going on with those kids.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> He could do a hulk smash through the wall or rip out the bars on the window (she had a window, didn't she), but that seems like it would be incredibly cheesy.


Tyrion had the option to be judged by "trial by combat" at both his trials. My guess is whatever Qyburn has under that sheet will be Cercie's champion at her own trial.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> So is the "younger" white walker who raised his arms at the end to reanimate the dead the baby we saw being turned into a while walker a while back? That was my assumption.


No, we saw that same WW at the end of Oathbreaker from Season 4.



LordKronos said:


> Wasn't one of those children a white walker (as opposed to a wight)? I was thinking maybe that was Craster's child.


All of the kids were reanimated dead, I do not recall seeing a WW child. There was one who had no eyes.

ETA:


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> Tyrion had the option to be judged by "trial by combat" at both his trials. My guess is whatever Qyburn has under that sheet will be Cercie's champion at her own trial.


It would be weird if a trial of this nature could be a trial by combat. If the point is that people of both low and high rank are treated the same, then it is a pretty gross iniquity to allow trial by combat because all of the wealthy and powerful people would have no problem getting acquitted by combat.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> No, we saw that same WW at the end of Oathbreaker from Season 4.
> 
> All of the kids were reanimated dead, I do not recall seeing a WW child. There was one who had no eyes.
> 
> ETA:


Buzzkill


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Those were the Wildling kids turned into Wights.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> That was my thought after watching this episode. Wow, all that infighting and battle for the throne and the ultimate battler is going to be EVERYONE vs. the White Walkers and they are going to have to get along.


I've thought for a long time now that the end-game will be Dany and Jon trying to rally Westeros against the evil from the North...


TAsunder said:


> It would be weird if a trial of this nature could be a trial by combat. If the point is that people of both low and high rank are treated the same, then it is a pretty gross iniquity to allow trial by combat because all of the wealthy and powerful people would have no problem getting acquitted by combat.


This isn't that kind of trial, is it? I.e., not "The People vs" but "The Church vs." I suspect entirely different rules will apply.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> All of the kids were reanimated dead, I do not recall seeing a WW child. There was one who had no eyes.


I could have swore there was a blue eyes one. I'm trying to remember...do ALL of them have blue eyes, or only the white walkers?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Mastodon (Heavy Metal band) Got Brutally Killed in Last Night's 'Game of Thrones'


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> I could have swore there was a blue eyes one. I'm trying to remember...do ALL of them have blue eyes, or only the white walkers?


All of them do that still have eyes. Some of them are skeletons. Remember the Wildling leader lady after being killed was raised by the WW. She sat up and her eyes went that icy blue. I think White Walkers can only be created using live infants.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I've thought for a long time now that the end-game will be Dany and Jon trying to rally Westeros against the evil from the North...


And now Dany has an adviser who believes in the threat.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> All of them do that still have eyes. Some of them are skeletons. Remember the Wildling leader lady after being killed was raised by the WW. She sat up and her eyes went that icy blue.


And I think the opening clip of the entire series, that one girl who was dead and nailed/tied to the tree ended up with blue eyes. OK, yeah...brain fart on my part. That was my basis for thinking one of the kids was a white walker, so nevermind.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> And I think the opening clip of the entire series, that one girl who was dead and nailed/tied to the tree ended up with blue eyes. OK, yeah...brain fart on my part. That was my basis for thinking one of the kids was a white walker, so nevermind.


I think only male babies can be made into White Walkers. That was the point of Craster and his boy children.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

tlc said:


> And now Dany has an adviser who believes in the threat.


True. Tyrion spent some time at The Wall. He has a better idea what is going on.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Is Ramsay suddenly a Seal Team Six leader or something? Have we seen him in battle?


Didn't he earn his upgrade from Bastard to Bolton by taking Winterfell? We didn't see it, but IIRC it happened. Using a small force to assassinate Stannis is a great idea, particularly if the guy leading the force is a bastard, and if he conveniently killed himself off in a suicide attack, it wouldn't be the worst thing ever.

My thoughts on this episode:

1) I'm glad Cersie is in prison, but I'm also ready for she and Marjory to be rescued or killed or whatever. That subplot is starting to get drawn out, and I can't believe the entirety of the monarchy is just stands by and does nothing. Okay sure, king is a wimp. But he has advisors. An Army. A police force. There should be someone who could make this happen. Maybe even someone who wouldn't mind if Cersei and Marjory died in the process. Where is littlefinger these days? Shouldn't he be scheming up a new plot about now? Something that will get rid of both the religious fanatics and leave him as sole adviser to Tommen? Just seems like littlefinger is in the right place at the right time.

2) 'Daenerys won't forgive Jorrah' is starting to get a bit old too. Hopefully that is resolved by the end of the season. Couldn't he at least play the "_I've been stone peopled and only have a month to live_" card?

3) As usual, I love the White Walkers. When the one in this ep lifted his arms and raised all the dead wildlings, the scene was perfection. I hope we learn more about their motivation as the series develops. Clearly they're intelligent beings, maybe even smarter or more advanced than the regular humans of Westeros. There has to be more to it than simply growing a mindless army of the dead to maximum size.

4) I don't understand why the wildlings didn't have better lookouts to enable greater than 30 seconds warning of a massive army-of-the-dead attack. They are closer to the white walker than any other group in the series, yet they seem completely unprepared for it.

5) Jon Snow doesn't keep just one piece of dragonglass on his person while traveling in whitewalkerland? Fortunate that his sword turned out to work even better.

6) I liked Daenerys's dialog about 'breaking the wheel'. Tyrion is the perfect one to help her, as he has allegiance to nobody back home at this point.

7) I'm ready for Reek/Theon to go. I really thought last season they were going to use him to assassinate his father. His current use is disappointing. Maybe the author is keeping him around to turn on Ramsay. Maybe it's time for Westeros's first penis transplant.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

I can't decide if I like the fast wights. It was an exciting scene, but it felt a little too World War Z.

I remember seeing them plodding past a terrified Sam. And I remember the one that attacked Mormont at Castle Black -- that one moved with purpose, but was it fast? Now they're a sprinting mass of wights? And leaping off that cliff without breaking into pieces?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

tlc said:


> And leaping off that cliff without breaking into pieces?


They did break. They just reassembled.  That's why they didn't just continue walking after they fell.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smbaker said:


> 5) Jon Snow doesn't keep just one piece of dragonglass on his person while traveling in whitewalkerland? Fortunate that his sword turned out to work even better.


The look on the Zombie King's face when his sword shattered on Jon's instead of the other way around was priceless.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Some last week speculation/discussion was also proved correct by the Theon/Sansa dialogue. In his mind he was not betraying her by going to Ramsay with her plan. He believes these escapes to be tests and fully believes that there is no way out for them. Theon was protecting her by foiling her escape plan, which would have made Ramsay angry where he had to punish her. Twisted logic but at least we now see how scared Theon is and that he is really trying to help Sansa.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

That rowboat at the end would NOT go forward a whole lot. Even when it seemed it did, a minute later it was even closer to the shore.

Who else thinks Sam's food is poisoned?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I thought about it but I don't see any reason Ollie would do that. He's not mad at Sam. He's mad at Jon.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Speculation about Ollie from next week's previews:



Spoiler



Alliser Thorne looked pretty annoyed (doesn't he always...LOL) looking down at Jon and the Free Folk in front of the entrance . Maybe Ollie opens the gate against orders.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

dtivouser said:


> It's too easy to forget the first half of the episode. "Yes, my brother killed your father..." that was a great scene.


"I'm the best Lannister killer in Westeros."


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Did the giant just wade back to Castle Black? It looke dliek he could defeat the whole horde on his own.

I was thinking that Maester Frankenstein had in mind to bring Cersei back from the dead.

Hey, Jon boy, remember when Dad beheaded the Night's Watch deserter who was telling fantasy stories about the monsters he saw in the North? Ooops.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Fantastic episode, loaded with lots of great scenes. I personally prefer the scenes between Dany and Tyrion, but the battle scene was so memorable and so haunting.....

This episode is why we all watch this show.


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> ...Who else thinks Sam's food is poisoned?


I thought the same thing...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Is Ramsay suddenly a Seal Team Six leader or something? Have we seen him in battle?


Yes, we have. We saw how good he is with the crossbow when he was hunting Theon and we saw how nuts/good he is in close quarters when he was fighting Theon's sister and her men (who were the best of the Ironborn) when they came to rescue Theon.

I hate to say it, but Ramsay is a badass fighter.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Why does Jon keep saying that he will open the gates and let the Wildlings in? isn't he getting them by boat which would simply sail to the other side of the wall*?







* With apologies to Pink Floyd


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

White Walker said:


> Hey Jon Snow! You think you just got your ass kicked real bad? Check this s#it out! Damn right Winter is coming!


This was one scene in which a picture was worth more than a million (GRRM) words. Just overwhelming.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I've thought for a long time now that the end-game will be Dany and Jon trying to rally Westeros against the evil from the North...


I agree. But I would add Bran to the mix. Dragons, which Bran will control, will burn much of that army of wights down.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Dragons, which Bran will control...


When did we learn this? It's been so long since I've seen a Bran episode, I don't remember this ability. Was it in his visions?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smbaker said:


> When did we learn this? It's been so long since I've seen a Bran episode, I don't remember this ability. Was it in his visions?


We know he can "warg" (mentally take over animals). The swamp kid is teaching him about that.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smbaker said:


> When did we learn this? It's been so long since I've seen a Bran episode, I don't remember this ability. Was it in his visions?


Well, he can control animals. We know those people (wargs) can control animals. Bran is strong enough to even control simple-minded people; which is unusual. So it's not a far leap to assume he can control dragons.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Well, he can control animals. We know those people (wargs) can control animals. Bran is strong enough to even control simple-minded people; which is unusual. So it's not a far leap to assume he can control dragons.


I hadn't thought about it before but it fits perfectly.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Why does Jon keep saying that he will open the gates and let the Wildlings in? isn't he getting them by boat which would simply sail to the other side of the wall*?
> 
> * With apologies to Pink Floyd


I think going around The Wall via boat is a longer distance than going through The Wall.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Why does Jon keep saying that he will open the gates and let the Wildlings in? isn't he getting them by boat which would simply sail to the other side of the wall*?


I think the boats were simply because it would be faster to transport all of the Wildlings that way than go over land. But I'm not sure it was ever planned for them to land on the south side of the Wall.

Although looking at a detailed map, I don't really see where they could land on that west side that would still be north of the Wall. If they have to land and then march over land on the north side of the Wall until they get to Castle Black and can go through the tunnel, then that seems like it defeats the purpose of using the boats to transport them in the first place.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I knew I couldn't be the only one who had this thought during this scene.


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Dang...It has been so long I don't even remember where Bran is.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

pmyers said:


> Dang...It has been so long I don't even remember where Bran is.


He's under a tree with Hodor.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pmyers said:


> Dang...It has been so long I don't even remember where Bran is.


He's roaming north of the Wall with Hodor and the swamp kids.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Bran is strong enough to even control simple-minded people;


I wonder if he can even control dead people?

Maybe Bran is a proto-whitewalker.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He's roaming north of the Wall with Hodor and the swamp kids.


No, they aren't roaming anymore. They got to where they needed to be. With the tree people.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> He's under a tree with Hodor.


Spoiler.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Spoiler.


 That was in last season on the show.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> That was in last season on the show.


I can see I am going to have to add a smiley everytime I do that.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> I can see I am going to have to add a smiley everytime I do that.


I have read the books so I do have to differentiate what I learned from where.


----------



## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Why does Jon keep saying that he will open the gates and let the Wildlings in? isn't he getting them by boat which would simply sail to the other side of the wall*?
> 
> * With apologies to Pink Floyd


PF is terrible, don't apologize to them or compare them to GOT


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He's roaming north of the Wall with Hodor and the swamp kids.


Except that Jojen was killed in the final episode of S4, so now it's just Bran, Rickon, Hodor, and Meera hanging out in the tree-root cave with some magical guy.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

smbaker said:


> 5) Jon Snow doesn't keep just one piece of dragonglass on his person while traveling in whitewalkerland? Fortunate that his sword turned out to work even better.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> The look on the Zombie King's face when his sword shattered on Jon's instead of the other way around was priceless.


I believe that look was "Oh sh*t!"


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that Jojen was killed in the final episode of S4, so now it's just Bran, Rickon, Hodor, and Meera hanging out in the tree-root cave with some magical guy.


No. Rickon is not with them. He left with...nameofservantwilding...to some Lord in the North to hide.

They also have the magical "child" under the tree.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> No. Rickon is not with them. He left with...nameofservantwilding...to some Lord in the North to hide.
> 
> They also have the magical "child" under the tree.


We at least know where Bran is. No idea at all on Rickon.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> We at least know where Bran is. No idea at all on Rickon.


I think we do know (I just don't remember). When Bran and Rickon separated, they did discuss where Rickon was going to go. I just don't remember the name of the Lord they went to.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

If I lived in Westeros, I would make an outfit of dragonglass.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> No. Rickon is not with them. He left with...nameofservantwilding...to some Lord in the North to hide.
> 
> They also have the magical "child" under the tree.


Asha? is that her name?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> No. Rickon is not with them. He left with...nameofservantwilding...to some Lord in the North to hide.
> 
> They also have the magical "child" under the tree.


Thanks. I had forgotten that Rickon wasn't with them anymore. When you say a "Lord in the North" are you talking about north of the wall, or the north part of Westeros, near Winterfell?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Thanks. I had forgotten that Rickon wasn't with them anymore. When you say a "Lord in the North" are you talking about north of the wall, or the north part of Westeros, near Winterfell?


Some lord south of the wall but loyal to the Starks (one of the Lords that report to Winterfell).

I could be not remembering things correctly, but I'm 99% sure I'm right. Bran sent Rickon to a Lord they trusted.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think the boats were simply because it would be faster to transport all of the Wildlings that way than go over land. But I'm not sure it was ever planned for them to land on the south side of the Wall.
> 
> Although looking at a detailed map, I don't really see where they could land on that west side that would still be north of the Wall. If they have to land and then march over land on the north side of the Wall until they get to Castle Black and can go through the tunnel, then that seems like it defeats the purpose of using the boats to transport them in the first place.


Where is the Wilding fort on the bay? I don't see any on either shore.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that Jojen was killed in the final episode of S4, so now it's just Bran, Rickon, Hodor, and Meera hanging out in the tree-root cave with some magical guy.


It's so adorable that you think just because he was killed, he's not alive anymore.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I think we do know (I just don't remember). When Bran and Rickon separated, they did discuss where Rickon was going to go. I just don't remember the name of the Lord they went to.


He went to some Lord who's an ally of the Starks for protection. Bran did not want to risk he and Rickon dying and no one left to claim the North.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> I knew I couldn't be the only one who had this thought during this scene.


Close.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Where is the Wilding fort on the bay? I don't see any on either shore.


It's not indicated on the map, but I'm pretty sure Hardhome is in that upper inlet in the Bay of Ice on the west side of the Wall.

Edit: Nevermind. It appears I'm totally wrong:


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeAndrews said:


> Where is the Wilding fort on the bay? I don't see any on either shore.


That map isn't very detailed...it just covers a few of the major sites.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hardhome


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

According to GameOfThrones.Wikia.com, Bran instructed Osha to take Rickon to Last Hearth, seat of the House of Umber.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I wonder (not having read the books) what dragonglass actually is. I know that the dragonglass weapons are artifacts of a time gone by, but given that Dany has a few dragons hanging around does this mean that new dragonglass weapons can be manufactured en masse? Eg - are they like regular glass except the fire used when heating the glass is flame from a dragon? Or are they something else entirely, in which case the store of dragonglass weapons is vanishingly small and will depend upon unearthing additional caches?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

danterner said:


> I wonder (not having read the books) what dragonglass actually is. I know that the dragonglass weapons are artifacts of a time gone by, but given that Dany has a few dragons hanging around does this mean that new dragonglass weapons can be manufactured en masse? Eg - are they like regular glass except the fire used when heating the glass is flame from a dragon? Or are they something else entirely, in which case the store of dragonglass weapons is vanishingly small and will depend upon unearthing additional caches?


I'd say is the same as the glass you can get from lightening. So a dragon blowing fire into sand would create more Dragonglass.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

MikeAndrews said:


> Hey, Jon boy, remember when Dad beheaded the Night's Watch deserter who was telling fantasy stories about the monsters he saw in the North? Ooops.


No Ooops, he was beheaded for deserting. Not for telling stories about monsters.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> No Ooops, he was beheaded for deserting. Not for telling stories about monsters.


OTOH, getting a good look at the monsters, I don't blame the guy for getting the h*** out of Dodge (or the Westeros equivalent).


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

smbaker said:


> When did we learn this? It's been so long since I've seen a Bran episode, I don't remember this ability. Was it in his visions?





Anubys said:


> Well, he can control animals. We know those people (wargs) can control animals. Bran is strong enough to even control simple-minded people; which is unusual. So it's not a far leap to assume he can control dragons.


Plus, as I recall, we did see one of his visions where the point of view was in the sky, and there was a dragon shadow on the ground. Of course that doesn't rule out the possibility he was just a bird flying while a dragon was nearby, but I took it as him being a dragon.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

danterner said:


> I wonder (not having read the books) what dragonglass actually is. I know that the dragonglass weapons are artifacts of a time gone by, but given that Dany has a few dragons hanging around does this mean that new dragonglass weapons can be manufactured en masse? Eg - are they like regular glass except the fire used when heating the glass is flame from a dragon? Or are they something else entirely, in which case the store of dragonglass weapons is vanishingly small and will depend upon unearthing additional caches?


They've told us it's just the local name for Obsidian. It comes from volcanoes on our world. One would presume it's the same there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Without spoiling myself in the other thread can a book reader PM me I have a question about a quote I believe is from the book I just saw on some gifs.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> That was my thought after watching this episode. Wow, all that infighting and battle for the throne and the ultimate battler is going to be EVERYONE vs. the White Walkers


They should unite pretty easily--look how quickly the remaining Free Folk decided they trusted the Crows. 

I wonder how far south Winter goes? Or do the White Walkers just bring their own "winter" with them?



Anubys said:


> I could be not remembering things correctly, but I'm 99% sure I'm right. Bran sent Rickon to a Lord they trusted.


Who right now has supposedly sworn allegiance to Bolton. If he's hiding Rickon, he'd better be careful or lose his skin....

At least Sansa gets break while Ramsay goes on his mission. How long until we find out that she's pregnant?

Winterfel has enough food for six months? That's fine for the battle since Stannis doesn't have any at all, but what about winter? It could last way longer than that, and they aren't going anywhere until it's over. Of course, they may be overrun by White Walkers by then....

Was anyone else expecting Jon to recognize one of the Walkers as Uncle Benjen?

Pycel calling Uncle Kevin was probably the first smart move he's ever made. Good job. :up:


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Was anyone else expecting Jon to recognize one of the Walkers as Uncle Benjen?


Yes.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Was anyone else expecting Jon to recognize one of the Walkers as Uncle Benjen?


Yes. I was going to post that but I read upthread that WW's are derived from baby boys.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

We know that's one way. It might not be the only way, though.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

One scene I really liked was after Jon killed the WW, and the crowned WW stared down upon the scene.

Even though he is cold (ha) and expressionless, he still conveyed a sense of "Hmm, that was unexpected"...almost as if at that moment he recognized Jon as "the One."


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> I think only male babies can be made into White Walkers. That was the point of Craster and his boy children.


I think the point of the Craster children thing is that he likes keeping the girl children for them to grow up into his new wives. The boy children serve no purpose so can be sacrificed.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Ereth said:


> They've told us it's just the local name for Obsidian. It comes from volcanoes on our world. One would presume it's the same there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian


Except our world doesn't have dragons.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

So you are saying the thing they called obsidian in the show is not like our obsidian, and they just liked how it sounded?

Clip calling it obsidian -


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> I think the point of the Craster children thing is that he likes keeping the girl children for them to grow up into his new wives. The boy children serve no purpose so can be sacrificed.


The White Walkers allowed Craster and his wives to live where they did because he provided those sacrifices,


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I've thought for a long time now that the end-game will be Dany and Jon trying to rally Westeros against the evil from the North... This isn't that kind of trial, is it? I.e., not "The People vs" but "The Church vs." I suspect entirely different rules will apply.


With an army led by Brienne and Jamie... 

Fantastic episode!! I was having a panic attack at the end there. Sheesh!

Cersei still doesn't get it, does she?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

SoBelle0 said:


> Cersei still doesn't get it, does she?


She's been drifting off into her own little world for a very long time. She's out there so far, reality isn't even visible from there.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Heyyyyy...they're trying to make Cersei confess to the affair with her cousin and her part in Robert's death, but what if she breaks down and admits that the kids are Jamie's? 

Bye, bye, King Tommen.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Is the gambler's business really selling insurance betting that the captain won't sink his own boat? 

You'd think that the boat and cargo owners would be very interested to know that the captain bought a policy.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> The White Walkers allowed Craster and his wives to live where they did because he provided those sacrifices,


Yes. It's a symbiotic relationship. But nothing indicates that only boy children can be turned.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

zordude said:


> So you are saying the thing they called obsidian in the show is not like our obsidian, and they just liked how it sounded?


Well their 'gold' was proven in S1 to have a really low melting point, so who knows the nature of their obsidian... 

My impression from the show so far is that it's plain ordinary obsidian. Not special dragon-tempered obsidian. Just the regular stuff formed into a spearhead.

I wonder if Valyrian Steel is formed using obsidian in some manner in the forging process? You'd think there would be a common component to the whitewalker-shattering weapons.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

zordude said:


> So you are saying the thing they called obsidian in the show is not like our obsidian, and they just liked how it sounded?
> 
> Clip calling it obsidian -


Who said it wasn't?


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I wonder if Valyrian Steel is formed using obsidian in some manner in the forging process? You'd think there would be a common component to the whitewalker-shattering weapons.


Jon's V-sword did not shatter the WW's weapon, it blocked it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> Jon's V-sword did not shatter the WW's weapon, it blocked it.
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


But then the next blow shattered the white walker into a million pieces. So yes, it was a whitewalker-shattering weapon.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Didn't Qyburn say that Kevan is already in Kings Landing (or did he just say he was summoned and is on the way)? I never got a sense of how shrewd a guy he is, but it seems like he'd be advising Tommen to do SOMETHING other than pouting in his chambers.


 I found that exchange confusing:

Qyburn: Your Grace, Grand Maester Pycelle has summoned your Uncle Kevan back from Casterly Rock to serve as Hand of the King. He now presides over the small council.

Cersei: Tell him I need to speak to him.

Qyburn: I implored him to visit you, but he would not.

I wasn't sure if the "he" here was Kevan or Pycelle. It could be interpreted that Pycelle summoned Kevan and that Pycelle is now presiding over the small council (until Kevan arrives), and that Pycelle won't come see Cersei.

Probably not. However Casterly Rock is a LONG way away. If they're not giving Cersei any water at all she'd be dead long before Kevan could make it back to King's Landing.



photoshopgrl said:


> So much happened this episode I am going to need a rewatch. I love Jorah so I'm sad Dany isn't going to forgive him but Tyrion advised her dead on with his situation. You can't kill someone that devoted to you but you can't have him by your side as you rule either. It's a no win. And Dany's face when Tyrion said "I suspect he's in love with you" was  for me. I can't help it I was rooting for them.


 Well, he has greyscale now so that's right out the window.



Shaunnick said:


> I can see I am going to have to add a smiley everytime I do that.


 Here's another idea: you could just stop doing that.



tlc said:


> Jon's V-sword did not shatter the WW's weapon, it blocked it.


 I think smbaker meant, a common component to weapons that shatter white walkers


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> But then the next blow shattered the white walker into a million pieces. So yes, it was a whitewalker-shattering weapon.


Ah, yes. Bad parse.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Just saw this as was out of town - my god that was a great episode. Phenomenal. I was already thinking the episode was excellent with the Arya, Cersei, Mormant, Tyrion and Dany scenes and then BAM the White Walkers finally make an appearance to signify that winter may not be actually be coming, it's here now and they (WW) are ready to kick ass and take back their home...

Also loved the look on the WW's face when they realized Jon was fighting them with something they haven't seen (or haven't seen in a long while). The person that said Jon may be the one may be onto something! 

Second viewing tomorrow, and I can't imagine I don't watch it 3-4 times this week.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I've thought for a long time now that the end-game will be Dany and Jon trying to rally Westeros against the evil from the North...


Well, that came to my mind right after the dragons were hatched.
It would seem to me that a White Walker's logical enemy would be a dragon.



pmyers said:


> Dang...It has been so long I don't even remember where Bran is.


Hodor.

BTW, I would have said "fantastic episode" just for the Tyrion/Danerys scenes but with a full blown White Walker attack, oh man.

So how many Valyrian steel swords do we know about?
Jon's Longclaw.
Ice was melted down to create Oathkeeper and the sword that was given to Joffrey as Widow's Wail.
(I don't think Needle is.)

Perhaps Jorah's mission will be to gather dragonglass?


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> So how many Valyrian steel swords do we know about?
> Jon's Longclaw.
> Ice was melted down to create Oathkeeper and the sword that was given to Joffrey as Widow's Wail.
> (I don't think Needle is.)


Definitely not.

A quick check of the Wiki shows those are the only two swords known mentioned in the TV show as of yet. However, there is one other piece of Valyrian Steel... in the dagger that was used on the attempt on Brandon Stark. I had completely forgotten that.

One thing I found while looking up Obsidian, that likely has no bearing on their use in the show, but that I found fascinating is below (spoilered because it counts as an outside source, not because it's in the books or anything).



Spoiler



Some surgical scalpels are made of obsidian. It is much sharper than steel, and makes for cleaner cuts. Found this description fascinating:



> Obsidian is used by some surgeons for scalpel blades, as well-crafted obsidian blades have a cutting edge many times sharper than high-quality steel surgical scalpels, the cutting edge of the blade being only about 3 nanometers thick.[34] Even the sharpest metal knife has a jagged, irregular blade when viewed under a strong enough microscope; when examined even under an electron microscope an obsidian blade is still smooth and even.
> 
> Good quality obsidian fractures down to single molecules which can produce a cutting edge 500 times sharper than the sharpest steel scalpel blade ("American Medical News", Nov. 2, 1984:21). On the cellular level an obsidian knife can cut between cells rather than tear the cells as a steel knife will do. A sharper cut will allow a wound to heal more rapidly with less scarring.


I had no idea. But I doubt "cuts even more sharply" is why they can kill White Walkers, but rather some other more magical reason which we do not, as yet, know.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Ereth said:


> One thing I found while looking up Obsidian, that likely has no bearing on their use in the show, but that I found fascinating is below (spoilered because it counts as an outside source, not because it's in the books or anything). * SPOILER *


That's very cool.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> A quick check of the Wiki shows those are the only two swords known mentioned in the TV show as of yet. However, there is one other piece of Valyrian Steel... in the dagger that was used on the attempt on Brandon Stark. I had completely forgotten that.


No, there are actually 3 sword. We started out with 2:
Ice - Ned Stark, then Robb Stark
Long Claw - Lord Commander Mormont, now Jon Snow

When Robb was killed, Ice was reforged into 2 swords
Oath Keeper - Jamie, now Brienne
Widow's Wail - Joffrey, current owner unknown (I think), but presumably it belongs to Tommen

There's are probably others in Westeros, but those (and the dagger mentioned) are the only ones I think we've seen on the show. I wonder if any of the swords in the iron throne are Valyrian steel.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

I've never been a big fan of long and extended fight scenes, mass battle scenes, or zombie movies of any kind. I usually FF thru that stuff to get back to the story - It's good enough for me to know they are in battle, I just find it boring to watch more than a few seconds of it. The dragon glass and Valyrian steel aspect might keep me interested enough to watch.

I guess I knew "winter was coming", but I fear I am about to lose interest in GoT.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

madscientist said:


> I found that exchange confusing:
> 
> Qyburn: Your Grace, Grand Maester Pycelle has summoned your Uncle Kevan back from Casterly Rock to serve as Hand of the King. He now presides over the small council.
> 
> ...


I don't think there is any way Pycelle is acting as the Hand. He has served 5 kings by being in the shadows and making people think he is a frail old man. There is no way that I can see that he would seize the power now when the King's hold on the throne is as tenuous as it is.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

madscientist said:


> Probably not. However Casterly Rock is a LONG way away. If they're not giving Cersei any water at all she'd be dead long before Kevan could make it back to King's Landing.
> 
> Well, he has greyscale now so that's right out the window.
> 
> Here's another idea: you could just stop doing that.


She gets what she slurps off the floor.

I took it that Kevan was in King's Landing and that's who she wanted to come see her.
...
I can't remember: did they say how it was arrested in Stanis's daughter? Maybe there's hope.
...
My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Stannis brought every maester, magician, snake oil salesman over and told them to save her. "they" managed to stop the grayscale. So it's probably something that can't be duplicated since it's most likely the combination of many "cures" that did it.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> Yes. It's a symbiotic relationship. But nothing indicates that only boy children can be turned.


We've never seen a female White Walker.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I found some additional sources of valyrian steel

Season 2, Episode 3. 
Maester Luwin said he had a link of valyrian steel on his chain. He says "Only one Maester in 100 wears it on his chain", so I suppose there are others they could try to round up

Season 2, Episode 5 
Xaro Zhoan Duck Sauce tells us that the door to that vault (which he eventually gets locked in) is made of valyrian steel. Whether that's true or just more bs on his part, who knows.
Edit...correction. He said "Valyrian stone" not steel. Not sure what that is.

Season 2, Episode 7
Arya talks about Visenya Targaryen having a valyrian steel sword, but that was long ago, so who knows where it may have ended up over the years.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> We've never seen a female White Walker.


Maybe they're back home cooking and cleaning


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> No, there are actually 3 sword. We started out with 2:
> Ice - Ned Stark, then Robb Stark
> Long Claw - Lord Commander Mormont, now Jon Snow
> 
> ...


I thought Ned reforged his own sword to create needle for Arya.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> I thought Ned reforged his own sword to create needle for Arya.


No.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> I thought Ned reforged his own sword to create needle for Arya.


Nope. Not at all.

I seem to recall that every "major" house has at least one sword (even the Mormonts have one). The only house missing one was the Lannisters until Tywin fixed that problem.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I seem to recall that every "major" house has at least one sword (even the Mormonts have one).


Unless the Mormonts had 2 or more, they now have none, as Jon Snow has their family sword. Lord Commander Mormont says that sword has been carried by Mormonts for 5 centuries.



> The only house missing one was the Lannisters until Tywin fixed that problem.


Fix one "problem" and another just crops up. Now the Starks have none (unless you consider Brienne in service to the Starks as having their sword)


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Unless the Mormonts had 2 or more, they now have none, as Jon Snow has their family sword. Lord Commander Mormont says that sword has been carried by Mormonts for 5 centuries.
> 
> Fix one "problem" and another just crops up. Now the Starks have none (unless you consider Brienne in service to the Starks as having their sword)


You are correct that Mormont gave his to Jon Snow. He did tell him it was the only one in the family. I pointed it out since the Mormonts were not a "major" family (as in the top 5), yet they had one. So my guess is that there are quite a few of them around.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Jon Snow had Needle made for Arya by their house blacksmith...it's just a typical (well made) sword.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> We've never seen a female White Walker.


Nor a female President.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I hope the white walkers get a spinoff tv show.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> Nor a female President.


They don't exist.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

The brilliance.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> They don't exist.


???

Don't tell Liberia, Argentina, Lithuania, Brazil, Kosovo, South Korea, the Central African Republic, Chile, Malta, and Croatia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._heads_of_state#List_of_female_heads_of_state


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> They don't exist.


well, maybe not in the U.S.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Of course in the US. Does any other place matter???


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> Of course in the US. Does any other place matter???


Point. Set. And Match.

Well played.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

anubys said:


> point. Set. And match.
> 
> Well played. :d


:d


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> They don't exist.


That doesn't mean they can't.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> That doesn't mean they can't.


So your admitting there are no female white walkers, but there could be in the future? Because that's where that analogy leads.

On what do you base the possibility of there being female white walkers? The ones we have seen? (0). The females potentially taken that could be changed to white walkers? (0)

All the evidence I see thus far, limited though it may be, says there aren't any and what would be the need for them? Dead things can't procreate. I would presume that's why they take live babies. Because they can't create a live baby themselves to change. If they take live people to make into WW, like rangers, again, they are taking males that are alive.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

tlc said:


> Jon's V-sword did not shatter the WW's weapon, it blocked it.


I thought it shattered the walker himself?

ETA: I just watched it, and indeed it did. The whitewalker shattered into tiny ice-like pieces when hit by the sword.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

smbaker said:


> I thought it shattered the walker himself? ETA: I just watched it, and indeed it did. The whitewalker shattered into tiny ice-like pieces when hit by the sword.


Right, I think first John blocked it, which surprised the walker, and then John took another swing and shattered the walker with that second swing. I don't recall whether the walker's weapon shattered along with the walker or not.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> So your admitting there are no female white walkers, but there could be in the future? Because that's where that analogy leads.
> 
> On what do you base the possibility of there being female white walkers? The ones we have seen? (0). The females potentially taken that could be changed to white walkers? (0)
> 
> All the evidence I see thus far, limited though it may be, says there aren't any and what would be the need for them? Dead things can't procreate. I would presume that's why they take live babies. Because they can't create a live baby themselves to change. If they take live people to make into WW, like rangers, again, they are taking males that are alive.


I'm admitting that we haven't seen any. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

I'm contending that the Craster arrangement is not proof that only males can be white walkers.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> I'm contending that the Craster arrangement is not proof that only males can be white walkers.


Craster's arrangement only proves he a gross, horny old bastard that wasn't going to give up any of his female children for.....um....obvious reasons. He didn't want to deal with the male babies, so in his eyes it was a win-win situation.

We saw no reason he *couldn't* have left a female child.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

danterner said:


> Right, I think first John blocked it, which surprised the walker, and then John took another swing and shattered the walker with that second swing. I don't recall whether the walker's weapon shattered along with the walker or not.


It did not, it dropped to the ground. The WW, did not  Just rewatched that scene on the showrunners' FB post to confirm. And Jon (not John)


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

pjenkins said:


> And Jon (not John)


I know nothing.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

danterner said:


> I know nothing.


What are you, John Sno?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Craster's arrangement only proves he a gross, horny old bastard that wasn't going to give up any of his female children for.....um....obvious reasons. He didn't want to deal with the male babies, so in his eyes it was a win-win situation.
> 
> We saw no reason he *couldn't* have left a female child.


Exactly


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Female White Walkers:


Spoiler



http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Night's_Queen



Spoiler because this is from the books and not mentioned in the TV show.


----------



## xuxa (Oct 8, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Can somebody explain to me the thin man's gambling business? I didn't quite understand it.


Pretty much exactly how Lloyd's of London and modern insurance got started.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Been reading reddit at lunch today - some great excitement for the show now and some hints that Ep 9 and 10 will be more of the same awesomeness 

Not sure how they top this episode!


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Anubys said:


> You are correct that Mormont gave his to Jon Snow. He did tell him it was the only one in the family. I pointed it out since the Mormonts were not a "major" family (as in the top 5), yet they had one. So my guess is that there are quite a few of them around.


Jamie seemed very impressed with the sword that became Oathkeeper.
From the way he talked about Valeryian Steel, it sounded to me like it wasn't that common at all.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Where is the Wilding fort on the bay? I don't see any on either shore.


Eastwatch


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

This week's Ask the Maester column on Grantland is particularly good - delves into white walkers, dragonglass, the list of all known Valyrian swords, etc. Book spoilers abound (although mainly just ancient history/backstory) so I'll just leave the link there and you can peruse it at your convenience.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Eastwatch


Heh.

Not exactly a Wildling fort!


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DreadPirateRob said:


> This week's Ask the Maester column on Grantland is particularly good - delves into white walkers, dragonglass, the list of all known Valyrian swords, etc. Book spoilers abound (although mainly just ancient history/backstory) so I'll just leave the link there and you can peruse it at your convenience.


That was a good read, thanks. Loved this part on when you know someone will die

"The character just kissed his/her children, promised to be right behind them, then gazed longingly upon their boat as it rowed away."


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Heh.
> 
> Not exactly a Wildling fort!


Doh. Misread the question.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> This week's Ask the Maester column on Grantland is particularly good - delves into white walkers, dragonglass, the list of all known Valyrian swords, etc. Book spoilers abound (although mainly just ancient history/backstory) so I'll just leave the link there and you can peruse it at your convenience.


I'm a little confused about the discussion of the Night's King. I'll spoilerize my question:



Spoiler



In the article, it talks about how the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch shacked up with the Pale Queen and then declared himself to be the Night's King. The article also says that the White Walkers existed before this time, and the Wall was built and the Night's Watch created in response to the threat from the White Walkers. So if the White Walkers existed prior to the Night's King, and if the Night's King was originally just an ordinary human, why are we assuming that the White Walker we saw in this episode is the Night's King? Are we assuming that the 13th Lord Commander somehow became a WW and has now survived for thousands of years and become the leader of the WW? Is the Night's King not really a WW? Is the Night's King a WW but not the leader of the WW?



Lots of questions that may or may not have been answered in the books. If you'd rather give the answer unspoiled in the Books thread, let me know, as I'm following along over there despite not being a book reader.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm a little confused about the discussion of the Night's King. I'll spoilerize my question:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll do my best.



Spoiler



The reason we are assuming this is the Night's King is because HBO has basically confirmed as such in their viewer's guide to the show.

That said, the show *seems* to be telling us that the Night's King somehow became a WW and has survived since then. But the books don't really give any sort of answer other than the Night's King legend that is discussed in that column.

So basically, lots of questions, no answers at this point.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I thought I heard/read someone mention that HBO's viewer's guide briefly referred to that character as the Night's King, but then they attempted to retract it and said it was a mistake.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Yes, that happened last season. But the most recent viewer's guide calls the character the Night King throughout the synopsis, so they appear to be confirming it now.

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-5/episode-8#


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Jamie seemed very impressed with the sword that became Oathkeeper.
> From the way he talked about Valeryian Steel, it sounded to me like it wasn't that common at all.


I think the show has made it clear that it very rare, but that there are a few of them around. It seems that most major houses have one. Even if the definition of "major" covers 10-15 families, that's not a lot by any stretch.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

2 additional observations after the second watch:

1. Is that other girl at the house of black and white going to betray Arya? She seems pissed that Arya is progressing in her "studies".

2. The Lord of Bones is now a Wight. We didn't see it (we did see the cute mom), but I think it's safe to assume that he is. Oh, and that WW killed then raised back from the dead a TON of wildings. I missed the scope of the wide shot the first time.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

1) yes, I thought so. She wants to knock Arya down a peg.


----------



## nlsinger (Feb 8, 2006)

Cute mom is in Pitch Perfect 2. Took me a minute to realize that because her hair is different.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

nlsinger said:


> Cute mom is in Pitch Perfect 2. Took me a minute to realize that because her hair is different.


I think you mean "Cute, DEAD, mom".


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Fixed:


JYoung said:


> I think you mean "Cute, *UN*DEAD, mom".


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

jyoung said:


> i think you mean "cute, dead, mom".


zilf


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Oh, and that WW killed then raised back from the dead a TON of wildings. I missed the scope of the wide shot the first time.


Yeah, I think I mentioned that earlier. We were told last season that Mance had 100k (or was it 150k) wildlings, and this episode they said they only had about 5k wildlings on the boats, and then however many more made it there during the battle. That's a HUGE army to deal with. But at the same time, I'm also wondering in what way they even are a threat, because I thought the wall had some magical properties to repel them.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I'll do my best.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To add to that,



Spoiler



If you watch the on demand version of the episode Hardhome, folowing it is an interview with the producers, where they refer to the WW raising the dead as the Night's King.

Show watchers, book readers have officially been spoiled. And we don't care.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> That's a HUGE army to deal with. But at the same time, I'm also wondering in what way they even are a threat, because I thought the wall had some magical properties to repel them.


I'm thinking at some point the show will present us with at least the possibility that the wall will be breached.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> I'm thinking at some point the show will present us with at least the possibility that the wall will be breached.


I think they've already done that...it's really just a question of when.

Because a bunch of guys standing on a wall thumbing their noses at the enemy doesn't make for much of a grand climax...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think they've already done that...it's really just a question of when.


They did it in season 1, episode 1, scene 1 !


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

The Wall is breachable, it's why they had so many forts for the Night's Watch. They have fallen into disrepair and the NW numbers have decreased dramatically. Jon himself came over the wall as did Tormund and the Theens


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

pjenkins said:


> The Wall is breachable, it's why they had so many forts for the Night's Watch. They have fallen into disrepair and the NW numbers have decreased dramatically. Jon himself came over the wall as did Tormund and the Theens


I don't mean come over the wall, I mean wall comes down. As in catastrophic breach and the whole zombie horde comes rushing through.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> The Wall is breachable, it's why they had so many forts for the Night's Watch. They have fallen into disrepair and the NW numbers have decreased dramatically. Jon himself came over the wall as did Tormund and the Theens


People who are alive can cross. But the Wall supposedly has magic that stops dead people from passing. But can they pass through one of the tunnels?

At any rate, we have seen WW south of the wall. So there's clearly a way besides "magic" stopping them.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> At any rate, we have seen WW south of the wall. So there's clearly a way besides "magic" stopping them.


?? I can't tell what you're trying to say here...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ?? I can't tell what you're trying to say here...


A White Walker killed those people in the first scene in the pilot. This happened near Winterfell, south of the wall. Ergo, White Walkers can cross the wall somehow.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> At any rate, we have seen WW south of the wall. So there's clearly a way besides "magic" stopping them.


We have? I thought all the white walkers we've seen were north of the wall.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> A White Walker killed those people in the first scene in the pilot. This happened near Winterfell, south of the wall. Ergo, White Walkers can cross the wall somehow.


Nope. The scouts witnessed it north of the wall.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Anubys said:


> A White Walker killed those people in the first scene in the pilot. This happened near Winterfell, south of the wall. Ergo, White Walkers can cross the wall somehow.


That was most definitely north of the wall. Go watch it again


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The Wall does have magical properties that specifically keep WWs on the North side. But the Night's Watch and their forts were there to protect the wall and repell the WWs. They have fallen into disrepair and only one of the forts is now manned. This will give the WWs the opening they need.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

But we have seen a wight in Castle Black. 

I don't recall any mention of magical properties of the wall that repel anything.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

tlc said:


> But we have seen a wight in Castle Black. I don't recall any mention of magical properties.


WW<>Wight


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> WW<>Wight


I know. One of the comments above was about "dead people" passing.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

tlc said:


> But we have seen a wight in Castle Black.
> 
> I don't recall any mention of magical properties of the wall that repel anything.


The wight was a dead ranger who was carried back through the tunnel. He re-animated after he was in Castle Black.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

heySkippy said:


> I don't mean come over the wall, I mean wall comes down. As in catastrophic breach and the whole zombie horde comes rushing through.


Wall won't come down (I don't think) but there are gates that allow passage (remember the Wun Wun's friend that almost opened the gates because the NW didn't freeze them off?)


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

tlc said:


> I know. One of the comments above was about "dead people" passing.


I don't think it is "dead people" can't pass the wall. I think it is something specific to White Walkers. Maybe something to do with their magic. They can control the Wights and create them anywhere within their area, which includes South of The Wall and maybe anywhere Winter has taken hold.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vertigo235 said:


> That was most definitely north of the wall. Go watch it again


huh! ok...will do...I thought for sure it was south...


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

What happened to the other wildlings being held at Castle Black? Tormund wasn't the only prisoner who Stannis made watch while Mance burned alive.

If they were released north of the Wall, you'd think word would have already reached the elders at Hardhome about Jon's mercy killing of Mance.

Are they conscripts in Stannis' army?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> huh! ok...will do...I thought for sure it was south...


They were Rangers at the wall and they went through the tunnel which means they were on the North side.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> They were Rangers at the wall and they went through the tunnel which means they were on the North side.


But the one Ned executed was south of the wall. So I must've gotten confused. I'll watch again. It's been so long since I watched that episode, it will be fun to watch it knowing what I now know!


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> But the one Ned executed was south of the wall. So I must've gotten confused. I'll watch again. It's been so long since I watched that episode, it will be fun to watch it knowing what I now know!


When he got terrified by the Wights and White Walkers, he ran and ran and ran. He didn't stop at The Wall because he knew they would make him go North of The Wall again (It's what Rangers do). We didn't see him get past the wall but he did somehow. You are right that he was caught South of The Wall but that's not where he started out.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

MacThor said:


> What happened to the other wildlings being held at Castle Black? Tormund wasn't the only prisoner who Stannis made watch while Mance burned alive.
> 
> If they were released north of the Wall, you'd think word would have already reached the elders at Hardhome about Jon's mercy killing of Mance.
> 
> Are they conscripts in Stannis' army?


I believe they are (with Gilly and baby Sam) still at Castle Black awaiting Jon's return.



Anubys said:


> But the one Ned executed was south of the wall. So I must've gotten confused. I'll watch again. It's been so long since I watched that episode, it will be fun to watch it knowing what I now know!


Yes, he was a deserter after witnessing the WW and what they could do.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

The opening of the series was definitely north of the wall. As I recall, the scene opens with them coming out of the north end of the tunnel. 

As for the guy that Ned killed, if he had found another way through/over/around the wall, how would the anyone even know to look for him to the south, rather than just assume (since none of the 3 returned) that he was killed or vanished north of the wall? My assumption is that we just never saw the following: 

he returned to the wall
they asked him what happened
he said the other two guys were dead
they said "tomorrow, you need to take us back there" 
he deserted castle black that night and headed south
the guys at castle black figured "surely he didn't desert us and run NORTH, so clearly he's gone south"


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Or more simply, somebody saw a guy in Night's Watch clothing far south of the wall, and arrested him...

Either way works. The details of how he ended up in Ned's hands don't really matter...


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or more simply, somebody saw a guy in Night's Watch clothing far south of the wall, and arrested him...
> 
> Either way works. The details of how he ended up in Ned's hands don't really matter...


No one knew specifically what happened to the guy. Anyone in Night's Watch clothes by himself South of The Wall like that was a deserter. Period. That's why Ned killed him. There was no need for talking to The Wall to find out that he was a deserter.

We don't know how he got past the wall. I guess GRRM didn't feel the need to flesh that out.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or more simply, somebody saw a guy in Night's Watch clothing far south of the wall, and arrested him...


Actually, I think that fits better. The wording they used in episode one when telling Ned was "They've captured a deserter from The Night's Watch." Note they said "a deserter" not "the deserter". So I think you are correct in that the men from winterfell just stumbled upon him, rather than actively looking for him.

Edit: also, before ned cuts off his head, he says "I should have gone back to the wall and warned them", which indicates he never returned to castle black. So yeah, that does raise the question of HOW he managed to get by/over/around the wall.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Actually, I think that fits better. The wording they used in episode one when telling Ned was "They've captured a deserter from The Night's Watch." Note they said "a deserter" not "the deserter". So I think you are correct in that the men from winterfell just stumbled upon him, rather than actively looking for him.
> 
> Edit: also, before ned cuts off his head, he says "I should have gone back to the wall and warned them", which indicates he never returned to castle black. So yeah, that does raise the question of HOW he managed to get by/over/around the wall.


Through the Nightfort or one of the other castles, just like Sam did. The wall is porous if you know where to look.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Pretty great look into the making of the "massacre".


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> Through the Nightfort or one of the other castles, just like Sam did. The wall is porous if you know where to look.


But Sam only knew about it because he reads a lot and saw it in an obscure book. That deserter probably could not read or write.

Not sure why I'm arguing since it's minutia...but this is TCF so I'm compelled to do so!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Through the Nightfort or one of the other castles, just like Sam did. The wall is porous if you know where to look.


I'd presume that any openings at the other unmanned forts have in one way or another been sealed. Otherwise, what's the point. If there were any other obvious ways people could just get through, then why wouldn't they have done that? Surely someone like mance, trying to get 100k+ people through the wall, would have sent out a few dozen people to scout out the wall (it's only 300 miles long) to find the easiest way through. Presumably castle black is it.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

gossamer88 said:


> Pretty great look into the making of the "massacre".


I love those recaps - thanks for posting.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> But Sam only knew about it because he reads a lot and saw it in an obscure book. That deserter probably could not read or write.
> 
> Not sure why I'm arguing since it's minutia...but this is TCF so I'm compelled to do so!





LordKronos said:


> I'd presume that any openings at the other unmanned forts have in one way or another been sealed. Otherwise, what's the point. If there were any other obvious ways people could just get through, then why wouldn't they have done that? Surely someone like mance, trying to get 100k+ people through the wall, would have sent out a few dozen people to scout out the wall (it's only 300 miles long) to find the easiest way through. Presumably castle black is it.


Remember when Bran was captured by the wildlings (including Osha, who Rickon is now running around with) in the first season? How did she and the ten wildings she was with get past the wall? And they were not the first, and certainly not the last. The point is, he was a member of the night's watch. The wall has ways around. Sometimes people climb over, other times they can get through.

We, the audience, don't need to know every way they can get past. We just need to know that there are ways to get past.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

BeanMeScot said:


> The Wall does have magical properties that specifically keep WWs on the North side. But the Night's Watch and their forts were there to protect the wall and repell the WWs. They have fallen into disrepair and only one of the forts is now manned. This will give the WWs the opening they need.


I thought 3 of the forts were still manned.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

brianp6621 said:


> I thought 3 of the forts were still manned.


Right, three out of twenty.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, three out of twenty.


Yup.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

BeanMeScot said:


> Yup.


Ok, because you said 1 in your post I quoted.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> Ok, because you said 1 in your post I quoted.


It is 3. I forget that because they never show the others in the show.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> I'm also wondering in what way they even are a threat, because I thought the wall had some magical properties to repel them.


Can anyone tell me exactly who or when they said this?

So the guy who reanimated at Castle Black that Jon fought--why did he wait so long and was there a White Walker in the vicinity to signal him to animate NOW? I assume not, so they can do that long distance? Or did they give him a time delayed order north of the wall? 



Anubys said:


> huh! ok...will do...I thought for sure it was south...


I had this wrong too--thanks for the correction.

Wouldn't it be cool to be an extra? :up:


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Can anyone tell me exactly who or when they said this?


To be honest, I don't know if it was covered in the show, on HBO's official viewers guide, or somewhere else.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Can anyone tell me exactly who or when they said this?


Do you want a spoiler?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> Do you want a spoiler?


Actually, now that I am thinking about it, I think Sam told Bran this when they crossed paths at the night fort.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> So the guy who reanimated at Castle Black that Jon fought--why did he wait so long and was there a White Walker in the vicinity to signal him to animate NOW? I assume not, so they can do that long distance? Or did they give him a time delayed order north of the wall?


I don't think there is an order given. I think that as long as the White Walker can extend their influence into an area (and the area has to be in a deep Winter for that influence to be possible), the Wights automatically reanimate and try to kill people to make more Wights. This is just a guess though. We have gotten no information so far about how this works.

We know they have Winter every few years, in general, but it is only a very long, very deep winter where White Walkers can come down to the south. They haven't had one of these for a VERY long time. Long enough that the Night's Watch has forgotten what their true job really is.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

First, I think Winter gives the White Walkers power and at other times they can't travel south of the wall unless winter like conditions exist. The wall itself only provides a barrier to prevent them from getting further south in the Fall and Spring. I suspect that in the middle of summer the WW don't or rarely come close to the wall. 

I also think something about the areas north of the wall will automatically raise the dead as zombies regardless of whether a WW animates them.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> First, I think Winter gives the White Walkers power and at other times they can't travel south of the wall unless winter like conditions exist. The wall itself only provides a barrier to prevent them from getting further south in the Fall and Spring. I suspect that in the middle of summer the WW don't or rarely come close to the wall.


Sort of. Remember, they have always had winters. People will ask how many winters another person has experienced and they have all had some. But the last time the White Walkers came was so long ago that they are more legend and myth than fact. So it has to be a really deep, really long winter coming that allows them to extend their influence even as far south as the wall.

The Stark motto is "Winter is Coming." And I don't think they mean the piddly winters that occur every few years. They mean a Winter where the White Walkers come. But even they don't remember that anymore.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

In this episode the mother wildling said the Crows built the wall to keep them out. Wasn't the wall actually built to keep out the white walkers/wights?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> Sort of. Remember, they have always had winters. People will ask how many winters another person has experienced and they have all had some. But the last time the White Walkers came was so long ago that they are more legend and myth than fact. So it has to be a really deep, really long winter coming that allows them to extend their influence even as far south as the wall.
> 
> The Stark motto is "Winter is Coming." And I don't think they mean the piddly winters that occur every few years. They mean a Winter where the White Walkers come. But even they don't remember that anymore.





Spoiler



My understanding was that the seasons can last several years and are not always the same length. When Winter comes it affects all of Westeros and not just those in the north.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Disappointed with the whole zombie plot. What's ww's long term goal? Make more zombies? Then what? I wish they were smarter or had more purpose than just being a virus.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Disappointed with the whole zombie plot. What's ww's long term goal? Make more zombies? Then what? I wish they were smarter or had more purpose than just being a virus.


In fantasy novels that's generally how it works and why undead are considered evil.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Disappointed with the whole zombie plot. What's ww's long term goal? Make more zombies? Then what? I wish they were smarter or had more purpose than just being a virus.


They convert the dead to the army of the dead to enable them to kill the non-WWs. Once they are done, they 'de-activate' them. The WW King's hand raising at the end wasn't a "come get me Jon Snow" it was a "watch me raise these people from the dead to form my army." He can just as easily turn them off they are under his complete control.

I wouldn't even call them "zombies" in the traditional sense, at least based on other zombie treatments like Walking Dead, World War Z, etc. There is no "virus", it's the WW's ability to raise the dead.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

On top of that, many don't have any lungs or vocal chords yet they make the same tired noise that every undead creature always makes in every production. They should make them meow like cats. Just as ridiculous but at least somewhat original...


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> They convert the dead to the army of the dead to enable them to kill the non-WWs. Once they are done, they 'de-activate' them. The WW King's hand raising at the end wasn't a "come get me Jon Snow" it was a "watch me raise these people from the dead to form my army." He can just as easily turn them off they are under his complete control.
> 
> I wouldn't even call them "zombies" in the traditional sense, at least based on other zombie treatments like Walking Dead, World War Z, etc. There is no "virus", it's the WW's ability to raise the dead.


The WWs are actually worse than a virus if all they want is to take over land and people for no economic/sustainability or political reason.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DUDE_NJX said:


> The WWs are actually worse than a virus if all they want is to take over land and people for no economic/sustainability or political reason.


So what you're saying is you don't want any irrational bad guys?


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

It bothers me that they're planning a huge operation and being clever, skillful in fighting and strategy just to be stupid.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> In this episode the mother wildling said the Crows built the wall to keep them out. Wasn't the wall actually built to keep out the white walkers/wights?


Yes. It was built to keep the white walkers out, but it conveniently kept the wildlings out too. It's just that over the thousands of years, they've had to deal with wildlings every year, but never any white walkers, so clearly the white walkers are nothing but a myth, and the wall must have been built for the wildlings.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

How does anyone know that the white walkers don't want anything in particular? Maybe what we see is the result of a conflict so old, nobody remembers why it started, and they just instinctively kill each other. Just like the wildlings vs the non-wildlings. The original "wildlings" just had the bad luck to get stuck on the wrong side of the wall when it was built, but then people forget that and figure the wildlings must be over there for a reason. Nobody remembers the truth, and they are now just sworn enemies, for not particular reason.

I'll add the following


Spoiler



Based on a little bit of info I've read about the nights king and nights queen, it sounds like there might be a bit more to them than just mindless, objectiveless killing machines, but I didn't read a whole lot, so I'm just reading a bit into it


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

The people in power are so despicable that perhaps it's a good idea for the frozen riders of the apocalypse to put an end to them.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

pjenkins said:


> I wouldn't even call them "zombies" in the traditional sense, at least based on other zombie treatments like Walking Dead, World War Z, etc. There is no "virus", it's the WW's ability to raise the dead.


I suppose it depends upon one's definition of "traditional" -- I'd argue that they are actually very much like traditional (pre-Romero) zombies, of the Afro-Caribbean Vodoun variety, which were typically mindless minions controlled by a dark sorcerer. That type of traditional zombie doesn't get much airtime these days, though they were part of American Horror Story: Coven not too long ago.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding was that the seasons can last several years and are not always the same length. When Winter comes it affects all of Westeros and not just those in the north.


Yes, which is why a person who is in their 30's will say they have lived 7 winters. But none of those winters was a White Walker winter.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> Do you want a spoiler?


No--I've seen something about this in other places, but I don't remember it being addressed on the show. Could have been old Nan's stories, or something Sam researched. I just don't remember.



BeanMeScot said:


> I don't think there is an order given. I think that as long as the White Walker can extend their influence into an area (and the area has to be in a deep Winter for that influence to be possible), the Wights automatically reanimate and try to kill people to make more Wights. This is just a guess though. We have gotten no information so far about how this works.


But when the guy turned at Castle Black it was quite a while ago and not nearly as wintery as it is now. 



LordKronos said:


> How does anyone know that the white walkers don't want anything in particular? Maybe what we see is the result of a conflict so old, nobody remembers why it started, and they just instinctively kill each other. Just like the wildlings vs the non-wildlings. The original "wildlings" just had the bad luck to get stuck on the wrong side of the wall when it was built, but then people forget that and figure the wildlings must be over there for a reason. Nobody remembers the truth, and they are now just sworn enemies, for not particular reason.


We don't know what the White Walkers want, if anything. It could be they just want to get rid of all the living so they can take over the planet. Or they may have a plan of some kind. We do know that they are sentient, and intelligent.

As far as the Wildlings go, they refuse to bend the knee. They are lawless. When they settle in the Gift they will probably continue to raid farms to the south and generally kill people and break things. Of course, all of Westeros may be in chaos by then....


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> But when the guy turned at Castle Black it was quite a while ago and not nearly as wintery as it is now.


There is always snow and cold at Castle Black. In the first episode when the Rangers went North of the wall, it was all snow and ice. It has to be near freezing there all the time. Otherwise, the wall would have melted years ago. But it takes the advent of a really long, really cold winter that happens maybe once every hundred years or more that allows the White Walkers to spread far enough South to cause the problems they have. I would presume that when it is not that kind of winter, the WWs stay much farther North. The Wall was to stop the Southernerss from going far enough North to encounter them and to stop the WWs from coming South during one of the White Walker winters. I'm sure the WWs just follow this Uber Winter south as it spreads and it would start much earlier the farther North you are.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Note in the first episode all the dead were frozen during the day. And the dead ranger was also frozen during the day. The dead wights seem to animate only under cover of night or winter storms.

The new Tapper Crapper from my giant Note 4


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I wonder if it's possible the White Walkers ARE the Winter ... they generate cold and ice in this world, just like dragons generate fire. So they're not waiting for a winter to happen, WW's simply regrouped and it took them a thousand years, and now they're getting closer and generating that intense cold (which may be needed for their reanimation needs) which then becomes that global Winter.
Also, I don't really remember whether this was from the books or the show, so I'll spoilerize it:


Spoiler



I believe there was mention that magic was coming back into the world (red priests, for example), which may have coincided with hatching of the dragons. it may be possible that as magic started to come back, the walkers started getting their power back as well - at least power of reanimation.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

OK, I'm just getting around to watching this the second time. I figured out how the thin man knew the sailor was going to die and thus chose not to insure him. The sailor was going on a route from Bravos to Meereen and back, stopping at a number of ports along the way. However, his route was taking him through the smoking sea, near Valyria...where Jorah and Tyrion were attacked.










Two other things I noticed

1) When Qyburn tells Cersei there is another way, and then Cersei says "confess" there is this look of surpise on Qyburns face, as if that wasn't what he was thinking. He never gets a chance to say anything more, but I think maybe he does have another plan

2) When Tyrion is talking to Daenerys, he says his sister (Cersei) married a man she loathed. Except that's not quite right. She loathed him later, but according to her in Season 1, she tells Ned that she worshiped Robert, and that her wedding day was the happiest moment of her life (not including the wedding night)


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> It bothers me that they're planning a huge operation and being clever, skillful in fighting and strategy just to be stupid.


Another theme in fantasy novels is that the dead hate the living just for being alive. So they strive to eliminate the living that remind them of what they once had. In the case of the White Walkers however the motivation seems to be a little more complicated than that.

There may be something in saying that the WW bring Winter with them or at the very least extend it somehow.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> 1) When Qyburn tells Cersei there is another way, and then Cersei says "confess" there is this look of surpise on Qyburns face, as if that wasn't what he was thinking. He never gets a chance to say anything more, but I think maybe he does have another plan


YES!

That is exactly what I was thinking. There was some plan but he couldn't talk about it (or was interrupted from talking about it).

I also thought that maybe he was in there as a ruse to try to convince her to confess given the timing of the Septa walking in.

But I lean more (much more) towards Qyburn meaning something else (other than to confess).


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Filming locations:


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> Yes, which is why a person who is in their 30's will say they have lived 7 winters. But none of those winters was a White Walker winter.


"Ain't no winter like a White Walker winter 'cause a White Walker winter don't stop."


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Anubys said:


> YES!
> 
> That is exactly what I was thinking. There was some plan but he couldn't talk about it (or was interrupted from talking about it).
> 
> ...


The plan must be to unleash The Mountain v2.0 - why else would he still be alive?


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

Was just at the Real Alcazar & Roman Bridge last week.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

NatasNJ said:


> Was just at the Real Alcazar & Roman Bridge last week.


Did you try to break Jaime and Bronn out?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Alternate ending for this ep:


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I like this one better.

(can't be inlined because it's not a YT video)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Alternate ending for this ep:


Doesn't really work without the dancing...


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Doesn't really work without the dancing...


To that point, comments are pretty funny:


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

nickels said:


> The plan must be to unleash The Mountain v2.0 - why else would he still be alive?


Well, GoT has made us never believe in the "last minute rescue" deal. Of course, this is a villain being saved by a monster villain, so it's entirely possible!

But if I had to bet, I say Cersei will suffer some more and get her trial before anyone saves her.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Anubys said:


> But if I had to bet, I say Cersei will suffer some more and get her trial before anyone saves her.


If it goes to trial, I'd have to think that High Sparrow is going to push on the incest with Jamie as well as Lancel and that could really bring light to the fact that Tommen isn't Robert's son.

Unless Cersei is dumber than she's already shown us, she wants to avoid that pretty badly.

BTW, did anyone catch Tyrion's statement on how he trusts Jamie?
Now contrast that to Jamie's statement on how he wants to kill Tyrion.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Jamie was the same prior to Tyrion killing their father. I don't think he ever believed Tyrion killed Joffrey. So it boils down to the fact that he had more affection for their father than Tyrion ever could have. Tywin treated Tyrion no better than a bastard. Jaime probably doesn't even realize how badly Tyrion was treated.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> Jamie was the same prior to Tyrion killing their father. I don't think he ever believed Tyrion killed Joffrey. So it boils down to the fact that he had more affection for their father than Tyrion ever could have. Tywin treated Tyrion no better than a bastard. Jaime probably doesn't even realize how badly Tyrion was treated.


The Red Viper did.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> The Red Viper did.


He didn't care anything about Tyrion. He just wanted a chance at The Mountain.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> Jamie was the same prior to Tyrion killing their father. I don't think he ever believed Tyrion killed Joffrey. So it boils down to the fact that he had more affection for their father than Tyrion ever could have. Tywin treated Tyrion no better than a bastard. Jaime probably doesn't even realize how badly Tyrion was treated.





BeanMeScot said:


> He didn't care anything about Tyrion. He just wanted a chance at The Mountain.


I think Jamie knew that Tywin mistreated Tyrion but didn't know the full extant.
Jamie himself didn't seem that fond of Tywin although I don't think he would consider patricide necessary.
I think Jamie also believed that Tyrion had nothing to do with Joffrey's death.
(Which begs the question though, why isn't Jamie concerned with finding the real killer(s)?)

Oberyn may not have exactly cared about Tyrion and I do agree his primary motivation was to get at the Mountain.
But I do think Oberyn believed that Tyrion had nothing to do with Joffrey's death and was somewhat sympathetic to Tyrion.

Don't forget how he related the story of how he witnessed Cersei abusing Tyrion as a baby to Tyrion in his cell.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JYoung said:


> If it goes to trial, I'd have to think that High Sparrow is going to push on the incest with Jamie as well as Lancel and that could really bring light to the fact that Tommen isn't Robert's son. Unless Cersei is dumber than she's already shown us, she wants to avoid that pretty badly.


I don't know that the High Sparrow has any evidence regarding Cercei's incest with Jaime and the parentage of Tommen. I think the charges against her have to do solely with what Lancel can testify to, which is Cercei having sex with Lancel (incest, fornication) and Cercei plotting to kill King Robert (treason, regicide).


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> (Which begs the question though, why isn't Jamie concerned with finding the real killer(s)?)


There aren't any golf courses in Westeros.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> He didn't care anything about Tyrion. He just wanted a chance at The Mountain.


I wouldn't go that far. He felt bad and witnessed how horribly his sister felt and treated him.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't know that the High Sparrow has any evidence regarding Cercei's incest with Jaime and the parentage of Tommen. I think the charges against her have to do solely with what Lancel can testify to, which is Cercei having sex with Lancel (incest, fornication) and Cercei plotting to kill King Robert (treason, regicide).


I think that you're confusing a Western Court for a Westeros court.

I suspect that the rules of evidence are a lot looser in King's Landing.
Look how fast Tyrion got railroaded with no hard evidence.



Ereth said:


> There aren't any golf courses in Westeros.


I was told there were some quite nice ones in Dorne.
You just have to watch out for the Sand Snakes Traps.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

JYoung said:


> I think that you're confusing a Western Court for a Westeros court.
> 
> I suspect that the rules of evidence are a lot looser in King's Landing.
> Look how fast Tyrion got railroaded with no hard evidence.
> ...


They really have no way of collecting hard evidence so it's going to be all about testimony.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> They really have no way of collecting hard evidence so it's going to be all about testimony.


Exactly. And as far as we know, Lancel is the witness against Cercei and we haven't been told that he knows about Cercei and Jaime or about Tommen's parentage. So I suspect Lancel will testify to what he personally knows about, not what might be going through the King's Landing rumor mill.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

In the list of charges rattled off against Cersei, I definitely heard incest.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> In the list of charges rattled off against Cersei, I definitely heard incest.


Which could be her cousin (given who confessed), her brother, or both.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> In the list of charges rattled off against Cersei, I definitely heard incest.


Yes, that's definitely one of the charges. But I'm taking it to be sex with her cousin (Lancel) rather than sex with Jaime, because Lancel can't testify about anything Cercei did with Jaime.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> I knew I couldn't be the only one who had this thought during this scene.


I couldn't help thinking during that scene that it was a shame nobody in the Night's Watch though to chip some dragon's glass into arrowheads or the tips of crossbow bolts.

Cause that white walker was just begging to have some arrows planted in his chest.  (Not to mention the ones watching from atop the cliff)



BeanMeScot said:


> It is 3. I forget that because they never show the others in the show.


Didn't Jon, after being made Lord Commander, just send some people off to one of the previously abandoned forts? So now I guess that at least 4 are (under)manned.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> Didn't Jon, after being made Lord Commander, just send some people off to one of the previously abandoned forts? So now I guess that at least 4 are (under)manned.


Well, he ordered Janos Slynt to go rebuild Gray Guard, but Janos chose to get his head chopped off instead. We never saw Jon elect someone else to go in his place, so as far as we know it's still 3


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

nickels said:


> The plan must be to unleash The Mountain v2.0 - why else would he still be alive?


Or like i guessed he is sure that he can bring anyone back from the dead, even Cersei.


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