# LOST - "Dr. Linus" - 03/09/10



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Do you think it's a Ben episode?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I think it's an episode about a boy and his blanket.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Interesting:

1) Both Jacob and MIB need to have a successor
2) Anyone Jacob touches can't die? He wore gloves when he saw Ilana. But he touched Locke and Locke died. Maybe it's only on the island.
3) Arzt!
4) Alex was a nice touch
5) So Richard did come on the Black Rock
6) The callback to Nicki and Paulo and the Diamonds was nice.

What a quick tease of an ending too!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Interesting:
> 
> 1) Both Jacob and MIB need to have a successor
> 2) Anyone Jacob touches can't die? He wore gloves when he saw Ilana. But he touched Locke and Locke died. Maybe it's only on the island.
> ...


2. I think it has different levels of effectiveness, perhaps at his choice.

He did seem to bring Locke back to life when he fell, he also must have saved Dogen's son, per his story. Maybe the effect is stronger on the island, that would explain why Locke could walk when he first got there too.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> 1) Both Jacob and MIB need to have a successor


Or they're both trying to be the one to fill the same vacancy...


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So I think it's clear that Widmore is definitely bad and in league with Smoky. That's why he wanted Locke to go back to the Island, and why he told Locke that there is a war coming, and if Locke isn't there, the wrong side would win. He didn't want Locke, but only Locke's body, and wants that side to win.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> Interesting:
> 
> 1) Both Jacob and MIB need to have a successor
> 2) Anyone Jacob touches can't die? He wore gloves when he saw Ilana. But he touched Locke and Locke died. Maybe it's only on the island.
> ...


Re 2: I seems more like you can't kill yourself. Richard said he couldn't kill himself but Jack could kill him, but Richard didn't know Jack had been touched by Jacob. Jack tried to commit suicide off-island and failed, Locke tried to commit suicide off-island and failed (but then Ben killed him).


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

That's Principal Linus to you.


D'oh.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

OK, when Ben said he had a doctorate in history, with those glasses on, and that hairstyle, did you think of our own Rob, formerly known as Medieval Guy?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

brermike said:


> Re 2: I seems more like you can't kill yourself. Richard said he couldn't kill himself but Jack could kill him, but Richard didn't know Jack had been touched by Jacob. Jack tried to commit suicide off-island and failed, Locke tried to commit suicide off-island and failed (but then Ben killed him).


That was my take on it. Maybe they could kill each other though.

Arzt!!! I was waiting for him to have something explode in the lab and come out of the smoke fanning his face and saying something like "wow, that could have been nasty"

So some Richard questions were answered.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

I love how Jack is becoming much more a "man of faith" like (real) Locke was.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

brermike said:


> Re 2: I seems more like you can't kill yourself. Richard said he couldn't kill himself but Jack could kill him, but Richard didn't know Jack had been touched by Jacob. Jack tried to commit suicide off-island and failed, Locke tried to commit suicide off-island and failed (but then Ben killed him).


Yeah and remember Michael couldn't kill himself.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

First off, I'll come right out and admit that when Ben and Ilana were at gunpoint in the woods, I actually cried a tear when he said he was going to Locke, she said why, he said because he's the only one who will have me, and she said she'd have him. There, I said it. Excellent acting on Michael Emerson's part.

Loved this episode. Loved it. I said out loud "he's going to oust the principal, just like he ousted Widmore!", then when the ball was back in his court, I predicted this was his chance to redeem himself.. I was mad that I'd forgotten the recommendation letter from before (which had been so clearly telegraphed).

Loved every scene with Richard. Actually really enjoyed watching Jack in the scene in the Black Rock (and thought about his and Michael's attempts to commit suicide throughout).

So Ben and Roger decided to leave the island.. I wonder what made them change their mind? Bottom line, that clearly shows that the bomb wasn't the event that "split" timelines (with them the same before that, and diverging after that).. If there was an initial forking moment, it happened some time before Ben would have been shot by Sayid (or, Sayid just never appeared in the past, so Ben wasn't shot and they eventually just left).

Arzt was great in this episode.

Beyond psyched how they did the scene with Miles bringing up Niki & Paulo. He dug up the diamonds after that, and mentioned that they were buried alive. 

About Jacob's final thoughts.. 


> Ben: ..Jacob, a man who didn't even care about BEING killed!
> 
> Miles: No, he cared.. Right up until the second the knife went through his heart, he was hoping he was wrong about you. I guess he wasn't.


So does that mean Jacob was just thinking "oh man.. I bet Ben's going to kill me. Damn, I'm toast. I don't want to die.. I'll try reminding him that he has a choice, but damn.. I'm gonna die. I hope I'm wrong about him and he doesn't kill me",

or

does it point more towards Jacob having a longer planned set of moves than his own death, and he anticipated that he'd be killed by Ben (and planned moves after that) but was hoping that he was somehow wrong and that Ben wouldn't do it..

(3rd choice.. OR, does it mean he was hoping that Ben was one of the few that were special enough to have free will and be able to resist smokey's suggestion, but he didn't think Ben was that special, and he hoped he was wrong since that'd mean Ben might be able to choose not to kill him).

Ok, more later. Loved this episode.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DancnDude said:


> I love how Jack is becoming much more a "man of faith" like (real) Locke was.


Yeah. And the new Locke just wants to go home. Like Jack did.

Ilana said there are 6 candidates left. There have been discussions (I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere) on whether or not Kate counts as a candidate. She was on the lighthouse wheel at number 51, but not one of the magic numbers. I always figured anyone who was on the wheel counted as a candidate at one time or another, regardless of the number. Since Locke is dead and marked off, can we assume Ilana was counting Kate as one of the 6 remaining candidates?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I had the oddest feeling that Ben's actions in the school earned him redemption on the island...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jking said:


> Yeah. And the new Locke just wants to go home. Like Jack did.
> 
> Ilana said there are 6 candidates left. There have been discussions (I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere) on whether or not Kate counts as a candidate. She was on the lighthouse wheel at number 51, but not one of the magic numbers. I always figured anyone who was on the wheel counted as a candidate at one time or another, regardless of the number. Since Locke is dead and marked off, can we assume Ilana was counting Kate as one of the 6 remaining candidates?


Yeah I agree, with Locke crossed off, that means either Kate is one, or both Kwon's..


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> 5) So Richard did come on the Black Rock


The captions cut out during the beginning of the Black Rock scene. Did Richard say something about it?

PS: The captions have been terrible this season on LOST. Over five seasons I've never had a problem; this season there are lots of missing captions, and they are often displayed late. Late enough that the next person is already speaking by the time the first speaker's words appear.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I had the oddest feeling that Ben's actions in the school earned him redemption on the island...


I thought they were gonna go for Ben screwing Alex over again, to show that these certain things will happen no matter what, but they went the other way with it. It's beginning to look more and more clear that everyone alternate life is MUCH better than what they're dealing with now--Ben has an extremely solid relationship with his dad, and Alex is alive and doing well. I'm waiting for someone's flash-sideways to be miserable and worse, but it hasn't happened yet. Kate's still a fugitive so I GUESS that's at least comparable, but who knows WHY she is in that time line--could still be better than what she did.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I had the oddest feeling that Ben's actions in the school earned him redemption on the island...


That's extremely interesting! Must think more about this ...


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

Why didn't Ben tell the Principal he also had to write the letter of recommendation along with his other demands or he would out him? I couldn't figure out why he could get the guy to quit his job, recommend him to the board, but couldn't get him to write a recommendation letter for Alex.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

brermike said:


> That's extremely interesting! Must think more about this ...


Sayid made the wrong decision in Otherworld, and he was doomed on the island. Ben made the right decision in Otherworld, and he was saved on the island. Kate ran in Otherworld, and she is a fugitive on the island.

I'm really starting to think that it's not just a thematic link...that people's actions on Otherworld have a direct impact on their lives on the island.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Johnny Dancing said:


> Why didn't Ben tell the Principal he also had to write the letter of recommendation along with his other demands or he would out him? I couldn't figure out why he could get the guy to quit his job, recommend him to the board, but couldn't get him to write a recommendation letter for Alex.


LOL--good point. Ben could have been like used the emails to get everything he wanted, including the letter. I guess we just have to accept it a creative liberty, because logically it doesn't really make sense.



> That's extremely interesting! Must think more about this ...


Isn't the off-island stuff still three years prior to the on-island stuff?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> LOL--good point. Ben could have been like used the emails to get everything he wanted, including the letter. I guess we just have to accept it a creative liberty, because logically it doesn't really make sense.


Why not...why wouldn't the scumbag principal threaten to take his student's future down with him as a bargaining chip? Even if it's a bluff, I can see this Ben blinking first to ensure Alex isn't harmed.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Johnny Dancing said:


> Why didn't Ben tell the Principal he also had to write the letter of recommendation along with his other demands or he would out him? I couldn't figure out why he could get the guy to quit his job, recommend him to the board, but couldn't get him to write a recommendation letter for Alex.


He probably could have gotten him to quit and still write the letter, but the only thing I could figure is a recommendation letter coming from a former principal wouldn't carry enough weight to get her into a school like Yale.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Yeah I agree, with Locke crossed off, that means either Kate is one, or both Kwon's..


Assuming Kate, as it stands right now:

Smokey's team: Sayid, Sawyer, Kate and (maybe) Jin

Beach team: Jack, Hurley and (maybe) Sun

So the teams are lined up now as either 4-2 Smokey or 3-3 Even ... depending on which Kwon is the true candidate. (not that this really means anything, cause at this point I don't think Jin and Kate have really picked a side)


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## Dad (Oct 27, 2001)

Great episode!



jkeegan said:


> First off, I'll come right out and admit that when Ben and Ilana were at gunpoint in the woods, I actually cried a tear when he said he was going to Locke, she said why, he said because he's the only one who will have me, and she said she'd have him. There, I said it. Excellent acting on Michael Emerson's part.


Yup, I was glad to see Ben go back to the beach. Ben coming full circle.



jkeegan said:


> So Ben and Roger decided to leave the island.. I wonder what made them change their mind? Bottom line, that clearly shows that the bomb wasn't the event that "split" timelines (with them the same before that, and diverging after that).. If there was an initial forking moment, it happened some time before Ben would have been shot by Sayid (or, Sayid just never appeared in the past, so Ben wasn't shot and they eventually just left).


So far the only ones we know of who have actually been to and returned from the island.



jkeegan said:


> Beyond psyched how they did the scene with Miles bringing up Niki & Paulo. He dug up the diamonds after that, and mentioned that they were buried alive. )


Yes. I had to fill in the family members on that one.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I had the oddest feeling that Ben's actions in the school earned him redemption on the island...


I'm leaning that way myself.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jking said:


> Assuming Kate, as it stands right now:
> 
> Smokey's team: Sayid, Sawyer, Kate and (maybe) Jin
> 
> ...


I wonder if it comes down to which Kwon it is.


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## toddvj (Apr 22, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I had the oddest feeling that Ben's actions in the school earned him redemption on the island...


Wow! You are a genius! I can't believe I didn't pick up on that. This is awesome. I am absolutely sure you are right. (Well, maybe not absolutely...)

Also, a couple weeks ago someone called Richard as a slave on the Black Rock - awesome
And Jack and Sawyer as potential replacements - awesome - we now know this to be true for sure
Lot of smart people on this forum, I wouldn't have called any of that all by myself.



mrdazzo7 said:


> Isn't the off-island stuff still three years prior to the on-island stuff?


Ouch, you really think so? You may want to consider starting over with the first episode of the season, because you are missing the whole point if you think that.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

toddvj said:


> mrdazzo7 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't the off-island stuff still three years prior to the on-island stuff?
> ...


Well, on the surface at least mrdazzo is right. The calendar time for the off-islanders is back in 2004: the plane did not crash, and these events are taking place in the days/weeks after that.

At the same time, the on-islanders (Sawyer/Miles/Jack/Kate/Hurley/Sayid) are back at the same time as Jack/Kate/Hurley/Sayid/Sun/Ben/Lapides/Locke's body came back to the island on the Ajira flight, which is 2007.

However on the other hand, the people currently off-island are not on a path, as far as we can see, which will lead them to be those same people on-island in 2007. If you know what I mean.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Johnny Dancing said:


> Why didn't Ben tell the Principal he also had to write the letter of recommendation along with his other demands or he would out him? I couldn't figure out why he could get the guy to quit his job, recommend him to the board, but couldn't get him to write a recommendation letter for Alex.


This was totally bugging me this episode! Kinda ruined it a bit for me....


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> ...4) Alex was a nice touch...


*Alex!!* What a pleasant surprise!! Tania Raymonde is absolutely gorgeous and always a welcome addition to any episode!



Turtleboy said:


> So I think it's clear that Widmore is definitely bad and in league with Smoky. ...


I had been wondering if/when Widmore would be making an appearance this season. It does appear that he will be on Team Smokey, as I can't imagine him and Ben on the same side.



jkeegan said:


> Loved every scene with Richard. Actually really enjoyed watching Jack in the scene in the Black Rock....


That was a classic scene -- Jack starting to realize that he is part of some larger purpose and putting it to the ultimate test (and having that realization validated!). And Richard in despair that his *whole life* has been wasted, perhaps finding new hope that Jacob is still a force (through Jack & Hurley).



mrdazzo7 said:


> It's beginning to look more and more clear that everyone alternate life is MUCH better than what they're dealing with now--Ben has an extremely solid relationship with his dad, and Alex is alive and doing well. I'm waiting for someone's flash-sideways to be miserable and worse, but it hasn't happened yet...


Agreed that the flash-sideways are all turning out positive so far. Should be interesting to see how some of the others turn out (Charlie, Juliet, Ana Lucia, Boone, Shannon, etc.).



Johnny Dancing said:


> Why didn't Ben tell the Principal he also had to write the letter of recommendation along with his other demands or he would out him? I couldn't figure out why he could get the guy to quit his job, recommend him to the board, but couldn't get him to write a recommendation letter for Alex.


Or write his own glowing letter of recommendation (as the the new principal)? Just a weak plot device, I guess.



jking said:


> Assuming Kate, as it stands right now:
> Smokey's team: Sayid, Sawyer, Kate and (maybe) Jin
> Beach team: Jack, Hurley and (maybe) Sun
> So the teams are lined up now as either 4-2 Smokey or 3-3 Even ... depending on which Kwon is the true candidate. (not that this really means anything, cause at this point I don't think Jin and Kate have really picked a side)


It's kinda interesting -- Team Smokey's goal is supposedly to leave the Island. I wouldn't think that too many Team Jacob members would have a problem with that. So what is the conflict going to be? Does Team Jacob have to keep Not-Locke on the Island? Is Widmore there with the sub to whisk Team Smokey away? Does Team Smokey need to kill Team Jacob before they can leave? Will Sawyer/Kate/etc. really be on board to kill Hurley, Jin, Jack, etc.?

Great acting by Michael Emerson, as usual. Somehow the guy we've loved to hate is now the guy we feel sorry for.

And did I mention *Alex*!!!?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fantastic episode although I was disappointed that we didn't see Danielle (yet?).

I have to admit that the scene with Ben and Ilana really got to me.

But is Ricardus really a slave name?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

T-Wolves said:


> Or write his own glowing letter of recommendation (as the the new principal)? Just a weak plot device, I guess.


Dr. Linus wasn't a Harvard graduate while the Principal was.
Yeah still a little weak but.....


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

toddvj said:


> Ouch, you really think so? You may want to consider starting over with the first episode of the season, because you are missing the whole point if you think that.


No he's right.

Original Losties are in 2007 now.

Alt-Losties are in 2004.


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## JStew (Oct 1, 2007)

jking said:


> Assuming Kate, as it stands right now:
> 
> Smokey's team: Sayid, Sawyer, Kate and (maybe) Jin
> 
> ...


Can't forget Claire as well!


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

What an episode. 

It is funny...Richard really doesn't have anymore answers than anyone else. He had the same type of despair that cause Ben to kill Jacob.

I guess Jack has chosen the righteous path, as Jacob wanted. Good to see him with some purpose.

Charles Widmore has apparently found another way to the island...although, would a lighthouse help a submarine? (referencing the Lighthouse episode) I wonder if we will see more people make their way to the island (particularly Desmond)

Interesting that Smokey did not kill Ilana or the beach folk. 

Jacob as a father figure to Ilana? How often has Jacob gone off island?

It was great to see Ben choose good over evil with regards to the Principal dilemma. I hope he keeps the e-mails and tries again in a month - but for some reason, I don't think he will. He seemed to enjoy being a teacher and having his History Club for the five students who need him. (part of me wants him to end up with overworked Danielle, but that would be to cheesy)

As for who's on what side (Smokey vs Jacobs Ghost), I don't think that Kate is sold on Smokey's team. I imagine she will tip the scales. 

Last episode (Sundown), when it was announced to the Temple folk that Jacob was dead, someone said, "Jacob's dead? He's going to kill us!" As I have a WAG that Smokey is Jacob (or Smokey is the evil that Jacob ousted from himself ~ someone in the last thread mocked my use of the word "expelled) that quote fit very nicely in. Also in Dr. Linus, we learned that Smokey too is looking for an Island Protector (which is weird as we have heard that Smokey wants to kill every living thing on the island). 

I loved this episode and the redemption of Ben.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Bottom line, that clearly shows that the bomb wasn't the event that "split" timelines (with them the same before that, and diverging after that).. If there was an initial forking moment, it happened some time before Ben would have been shot by Sayid (or, Sayid just never appeared in the past, so Ben wasn't shot and they eventually just left).
> .


Or, the bomb caused things to change both in the past and in the future. Because it prevented the survivors from coming to the Island to begin with.

My head hurts.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Okay, so it was nice to see Ben chose Alex's needs over his own, but I thought maybe he did both. 

When he came into the office at the end it seemed he had a twinge of that old evil Ben smile and that he was the principal. When Alex came in I expected the smile to get bigger and more eviller and tell her that he had the matter taken care of.....a letter from him as principal. 
Oh well. I guess it's better this way.


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## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sayid made the wrong decision in Otherworld, and he was doomed on the island. Ben made the right decision in Otherworld, and he was saved on the island. Kate ran in Otherworld, and she is a fugitive on the island.
> 
> I'm really starting to think that it's not just a thematic link...that people's actions on Otherworld have a direct impact on their lives on the island.


Also interesting that it was Locke in the ALT that tempted Ben to be principal (or leader) but he chose a different path, and it was FLocke on the island who tempted Ben to kill Ilana (and become leader of the island when he left) but Ben chose not to.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

betts4 said:


> When he came into the office at the end it seemed he had a twinge of that old evil Ben smile and that he was the principal. When Alex came in I expected the smile to get bigger and more eviller and tell her that he had the matter taken care of.....a letter from him as principal.


They had already made the point that a letter from Ben wouldn't do, because he wasn't a Yalie like the principal.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Michael Emerson does an excellent job of portraying Island Ben has someone with utter confidence when he has power, and a sniveling weasel when he doesn't. And then, Dr. Linus was another character who was neither -- just a workaday guy disappointed in his life, but not really a whiner.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I loved his body language when he starts following Ilana back to camp--that posture and walk--like a chastened boy trailing his mother.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Michael Emerson :up: :up: :up:

Definitely the best actor on the show. I realize that in many ways he has the best character for an actor to play, but still I doubt any of the others could do as well.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Awesome episode!!

As to the discussion as to why Ben simply didn't make the glowing recommendation letter for Alex part of his blackmail deal... While it would be easy to get the principal to do some things short term (resign, make Ben the new principal, write the recommendation letter), it would be harder to keep him under control long term. While he might write the letter initially, he could retract it later and "burn Alex down" (weren't those his words?)

William Atherton, still cast as the same type. <Peter Venkman>Yes, it's true, this man has no d1ck.</Peter Venkman>

And how awesome was it to see Alex, and what her relationship to Alternate Reality Ben is!! :up: :up:


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

hapdrastic said:


> This was totally bugging me this episode! Kinda ruined it a bit for me....


But we've seen devious Ben be for Ben and ONLY Ben. So it may not have occured to him to have the Principal write the letter at the time of his plot. Plus didn't Alex waffle a bit on asking the Principal about the recommendation when she first mentioned it to Ben? I think Alex is Ben's one softspot. On the island, he chose the island over her and regretted it. It pretty much ruined him as a man. At the school, he did the opposite and saved her. The exact opposite of his action on the island.

On a side note....was it just me, or did anyone else get a weird pedophelia vibe the way Ben acted with Alex? It didn't seem like a father-daughter or mentor-student relationship. I also thought it would have been cool if they had Rousseau be his wife/gf.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> On a side note....was it just me, or did anyone else get a weird pedophelia vibe the way Ben acted with Alex?


*Absolutely not at all.*

I thought it was played _perfectly_ as the caring compassionate teacher and outstanding student, that he cares about _like a daughter_. No "pedophilia" vibe at all.

In fact, I thought the scene was particularly well played where she calls the principal a "pervert". First, Ben seems shocked and genuinely concerned that the principal had made a pass (or worse) at Alex.

Alex then moves from across the table from him to next to him to tell him in hushed tones about what she saw the principal and the school nurse doing.

Then, when she remained next to him as they continued the lesson, Ben seemed just slightly uncomfortable that she was no longer across the table. From the way this was played, I picked up two things:


Alex sees Ben as anything but a "pervert". She's 100% comfortable with him, and is confident he'd never do anything inappropriate. He's a father figure to her. Her sitting next to him was out of innocence and trust. She's young and innocent enough that she would never perceive that it might not "look" right.
Ben sees her the same way, like a daughter, and never _would_ do anything inappropriate. However, he was cognizant of how it might _look_ to someone who happened by, that Alex was next to him, rather than across from him. So, he hesitated resuming the lesson, and looked slightly uncomfortable.

By the end of the episode, the "father/daughter" relationship between Ben and Alex was reinforced again and again. He sacrificed for her, like a father would for his daughter.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> *Absolutely not at all.*
> 
> I thought it was played _perfectly_ as the caring compassionate teacher and outstanding student, that he cares about _like a daughter_. No "pedophilia" vibe at all.
> 
> ...


A lot of pedophiles act EXACTLY in the same manor. Work to get the victim's trust and then when the time is right, pounce. I agree, that was the intent here, but being that Ben is kind of creepy, I got that feeling. If he WAS one, of COURSE he would act shocked at the revelation of the principal being a "pervert". He'd be hiding his motives by doing that. I never really had that kind of relationship with a teacher, so maybe thats' why I saw it that way.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> On a side note....was it just me, or did anyone else get a weird pedophelia vibe the way Ben acted with Alex? It didn't seem like a father-daughter or mentor-student relationship. .


It wasn't just you.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> A lot of pedophiles act EXACTLY in the same manor. Work to get the victim's trust and then when the time is right, pounce. I agree, that was the intent here, but being that Ben is kind of creepy, I got that feeling. If he WAS one, of COURSE he would act shocked at the revelation of the principal being a "pervert". He'd be hiding his motives by doing that. I never really had that kind of relationship with a teacher, so maybe thats' why I saw it that way.


I just strongly disagree that this was the writer's intent, in this case.

In the "prime reality" Alex was Ben's adopted daughter, and he allowed her to get killed.

In the "alternate reality", she's almost effectively his "adopted daughter" as well, and in this reality, he protects her as a good father should.

I think that you are reading something into it that was not intended by the writers, _because_ we've seen Ben act like such a colossal creep before, it's hard to accept that the same character is doing something pure and noble.

But, that's exactly what this is. Ben _is_ pure and noble in the alternate reality. That's his redemption.

Even his attempt to blackmail the principal was "noble". The principal is a complete ******, and the school and its students would be much better off with him gone.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sayid made the wrong decision in Otherworld, and he was doomed on the island. Ben made the right decision in Otherworld, and he was saved on the island. Kate ran in Otherworld, and she is a fugitive on the island.
> 
> I'm really starting to think that it's not just a thematic link...that people's actions on Otherworld have a direct impact on their lives on the island.


That makes a lot of sense. But I don't think Sayid made the wrong decision. (Apparently, I'm evil? ) Keemey deserved what he got, and Sayid really didn't have any choice if he was going to save his family (and Jin incidentally). In this X-world, Sayid was able to protect Nadia, which he had not been able to do in the original timeline.



Steveknj said:


> On a side note....was it just me, or did anyone else get a weird pedophelia vibe the way Ben acted with Alex? It didn't seem like a father-daughter or mentor-student relationship. I also thought it would have been cool if they had Rousseau be his wife/gf.


Not exactly, but I did expect Principal Reynolds to make or threaten an accusation like that.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> I just strongly disagree that this was the writer's intent, in this case.
> 
> In the "prime reality" Alex was Ben's adopted daughter, and he allowed her to get killed.
> 
> ...


While I agree, that wasn't the writers' intent, that's just the vibe I got. Before the ending where Ben did defend her and got his redemption, there was no definitive indication that he would. In fact, you KNEW as soon as he realized he had the ammo against the prinicipal, he'd try to use it. Not exactly a pure an noble action. It's only at the end do you realize that he's not the same person as he is on the island. So it's NOT a reach, especially early on, while he was tutoring her, that there could be something...ummmm...more to his feelings for Alex. By the end, you're right, we see the other side.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Fish Man said:


> I just strongly disagree that this was the writer's intent, in this case.
> 
> In the "prime reality" Alex was Ben's adopted daughter, and he allowed her to get killed.
> 
> ...


It's also become a Hollywood trope that if a middle-aged nerdy guy is around kids (other than his own), his motives are suspect.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

I think there are several things the writers did to go out of their way to telegraph to us that "Alternate Reality" Ben is a very different man from the Ben that we have become familiar with.

The Ben we've known previously was a totally self serving douchbag, who didn't care who got hurt, so long as he got his way. He was also estranged from his father, and murdered most of the Dahrma people, including his own father.

In this episode, we see "Alternate Reality" Ben tenderly and lovingly caring for his elderly and ailing father.

The only reason this scene was in the episode was to telegraph to us that this is a very different "Ben" than we've come to know.

And, I think, the personalities of "Alternative Reality" noble, caring, kind Ben, and "prime reality" Ben will start to converge. We are seeing Ben's redemption.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Can you effectively blackmail someone with documents you illegally obtained? Side note, how come email accounts are so easy to hack, locks are so easy to pick and cars so easy to hot wire on tv shows?

Michelle Rodriguez Jr. should have skipped the whole "dig your own grave" deal and just shot Linus. Let the buzzards take care of the body. 

I don't know why I got so excited when it seemed like Richard was going to explain his immortality and history to Jack. This is Lost. Of course, they won't explain everything in one shot.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> So I think it's clear that Widmore is definitely bad and in league with Smoky. That's why he wanted Locke to go back to the Island, and why he told Locke that there is a war coming, and if Locke isn't there, the wrong side would win. He didn't want Locke, but only Locke's body, and wants that side to win.


Makes sense, except for the fact that Ben was the one who killed Locke, and I'm not sure how Widmore would have predicted that or had any hand in making it happen.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I had the oddest feeling that Ben's actions in the school earned him redemption on the island...





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sayid made the wrong decision in Otherworld, and he was doomed on the island. Ben made the right decision in Otherworld, and he was saved on the island. Kate ran in Otherworld, and she is a fugitive on the island.
> 
> I'm really starting to think that it's not just a thematic link...that people's actions on Otherworld have a direct impact on their lives on the island.


This goes to show that one's own preconceived thoughts on where things are heading plays a big part in how we perceive the bits and pieces thrown out each episode. Although you've previously expressed vehement disagreement, I'm more and more convinced of what I'll call, for lack of a better term, the epilogue theory of the "sideways" storyline. As such, I had the exact opposite reaction from you; namely, I think that Ben and Sayid's actions on the island led to them becoming the people who made the decisions they made off of the island, rather than the other way around.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Can you effectively blackmail someone with documents you illegally obtained?


That CBS reporter tried to do so to David Letterman! 

EDIT: (Come to think of it, since Blackmail is illegal that's a bit like asking, "Can you rob someone with a stolen gun?" Methinks the answer is "yes."  )



cheesesteak said:


> Side note, how come email accounts are so easy to hack, locks are so easy to pick and cars so easy to hot wire on tv shows?


True that... Creative license...


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

jking said:


> He probably could have gotten him to quit and still write the letter, but the only thing I could figure is a recommendation letter coming from a former principal wouldn't carry enough weight to get her into a school like Yale.


Probably a smeek but the pricipal was a Yalie


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

I figured Ben was going to compose his own recommendation letter and send it from the principal's email account. The way it went down was quite contrived as others have mentioned.


----------



## Boot (Mar 15, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Can you effectively blackmail someone with documents you illegally obtained?


If you're just trying to publicly embarrass someone, it probably doesn't matter much how you got the information. They're still going to be damaged by the story getting out.


cheesesteak said:


> Michelle Rodriguez Jr. should have skipped the whole "dig your own grave" deal and just shot Linus. Let the buzzards take care of the body.


I don't understand why Ben even bothered digging his own grave. What's the consequence of not doing it? He's dead either way (or at least he had no reason to believe otherwise).


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> First off, I'll come right out and admit that when Ben and Ilana were at gunpoint in the woods, I actually cried a tear when he said he was going to Locke, she said why, he said because he's the only one who will have me, and she said she'd have him. There, I said it. Excellent acting on Michael Emerson's part.


Yes, that was solid. :up:

But I quickly found myself thinking: "Why is he going with her? Locke promised him that he could be in charge of the Island. Doesn't he want that? What can she offer him?"

I suppose he can still visit the Locke-dressed monster on Hydra next episode, but it seems like he made his choice. And his choice confused me.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

LOST continues to deliver.

Thought provoking plots. Interesting, deep characters with multifaceted personalities. Believeable internal conflicts. Portrayed by actors who are masters at their craft.

The scene with Ben and the rifle where he's believably reached a point of utter despair forcing him to go with FLocke and is offered redemption was fantastic and emotional. ME is a terrific actor who has been blessed with great writers. An all-knowing, master manipulator we loathed, hated and feared in past seasons has credibly morphed into someone lost and rudderless, manipulated and for whom we now have strong feelings of sympathy and elation at his redemption. Loved the Otherworld scenes with Alex. I also had the strong feeling that his Otherworld actions re Alex enabled his turnabout on the Island.

I treasure every remaining moment of this show.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I thought they were gonna go for Ben screwing Alex over again, to show that these certain things will happen no matter what, but they went the other way with it. It's beginning to look more and more clear that everyone alternate life is MUCH better than what they're dealing with now--Ben has an extremely solid relationship with his dad, and Alex is alive and doing well. I'm waiting for someone's flash-sideways to be miserable and worse, but it hasn't happened yet. Kate's still a fugitive so I GUESS that's at least comparable, but who knows WHY she is in that time line--could still be better than what she did.


Teacher Ben can still go to the wife and school board after Alex is admitted and attending Yale (if she even gets in).


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

mmilton80 said:


> Also in Dr. Linus, we learned that Smokey too is looking for an Island Protector (which is weird as we have heard that Smokey wants to kill every living thing on the island).


I'm not too sure. He's already told Sawyer the island doesn't need protecting, that it's just an island. So is he really looking for an island protector, or was that just his way of luring Ben over to his side... knowing being leader of the island would be what Ben would probably ultimately want?


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Boot said:


> I don't understand why Ben even bothered digging his own grave. What's the consequence of not doing it? He's dead either way (or at least he had no reason to believe otherwise).


Well, if you're not digging you're dead. If you are digging you're alive. And who knows? Maybe a smoke monster disguised as a man you strangled will show up and offer you a chance to run a footrace to a rifle you can use to save your life.

It could happen!


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

When Ilana asked Miles how Jacob has died, I expected Miles to respond with "Jacob is NOT dead".


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Yes, that was solid. :up:
> 
> But I quickly found myself thinking: "Why is he going with her? Locke promised him that he could be in charge of the Island. Doesn't he want that? What can she offer him?"
> 
> I suppose he can still visit the Locke-dressed monster on Hydra next episode, but it seems like he made his choice. And his choice confused me.


I figured that he realized his mistake in killing Jacob and realized that he still wants to follow him. Ben really did get tricked into killing Jacob to begin with so why would he go over to Flocke to be tricked again?


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Oh yeah and I loved that Flocke waved his hand and Ben's shackle was just instantly opened.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> I figured that he realized his mistake in killing Jacob and realized that he still wants to follow him. Ben really did get tricked into killing Jacob to begin with so why would he go over to Flocke to be tricked again?


Makes sense. And the redemption theme works too.

But in the larger game, I really think Ben wants to be ruler of the island. He misses being in charge. With Ilana, I can't even fathom what his best outcome is.

With Flocke, I genuinely think he gets to rule the island. But of course that could be a trap.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DancnDude said:


> Oh yeah and I loved that Flocke waved his hand and Ben's shackle was just instantly opened.


Yeah, and that little move furthers my theory that he did the same thing when Sawyer was on the ladder (in The Substitute) to cause the ladder to collapse so he could "save" Sawyer and help him to earn his trust.


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Makes sense. And the redemption theme works too.
> 
> But in the larger game, I really think Ben wants to be ruler of the island. He misses being in charge. With Ilana, I can't even fathom what his best outcome is.
> 
> With Flocke, I genuinely think he gets to rule the island. But of course that could be a trap.


Also could still happen, although on Jacob's side. Is Ben for sure not a "candidate"?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> When Ilana asked Miles how Jacob has died, I expected Miles to respond with "Jacob is NOT dead".


I really thought he'd cover for Ben and say Smokey did it. Miles seems the type who likes to hold info over people. But I'm the first to admit I don't follow the subtleties of this show well. There's probably very valid reasons Miles wants Ben dead.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Here's an idea (that probably won't play out). It looks like Jacob and MiB both need replacements, and the Oceanic 6 are candidates. It appears that Jacob and MiB are in an adversarial relationship, struggling against each other, not wanting to be with each other. But does it have to be that way? The show has said that nobody is sure which Kwan is the candidate. Why not both? Why can't Jin take MiB's place, and Sun take Jacob's, or vice versa? Then you have two people who WANT to be together. And Sun has shown the ability to manipulate on a par with Jacob (stealing her father's business.)


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> Also could still happen, although on Jacob's side. Is Ben for sure not a "candidate"?


Not one of Jacob's, no.


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Not one of Jacob's, no.


I wonder where Ben fit into Jacob's plan then.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> Here's an idea (that probably won't play out). It looks like Jacob and MiB both need replacements, and the Oceanic 6 are candidates. It appears that Jacob and MiB are in an adversarial relationship, struggling against each other, not wanting to be with each other. But does it have to be that way? The show has said that nobody is sure which Kwan is the candidate. Why not both? Why can't Jin take MiB's place, and Sun take Jacob's, or vice versa? Then you have two people who WANT to be together. And Sun has shown the ability to manipulate on a par with Jacob (stealing her father's business.)


Don't forget the baby. 

Again, I don't know if it's even still a possibility, but if the Kwan baby is born on the island, that's a first, right? No baby has been born there. So if it happens, wouldn't it be because the island let it happen? Or it would be something very important to the island?

Baby Kwan FTW!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Don't forget the baby.
> 
> Again, I don't know if it's even still a possibility, but if the Kwan baby is born on the island, that's a first, right? No baby has been born there. So if it happens, wouldn't it be because the island let it happen? Or it would be something very important to the island?
> 
> Baby Kwan FTW!


Uh dood?

Claire had Aaron on the island.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> 2) Anyone Jacob touches can't die? He wore gloves when he saw Ilana. But he touched Locke and Locke died. Maybe it's only on the island.


I thought Richard said that he was given a gift by Jacob and anyone Jacob touches is given a gift. I didn't take that to mean everyone would live forever, but that there would be different gifts for different people.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DancnDude said:


> I wonder where Ben fit into Jacob's plan then.


Maybe the same place Judas fit into Jesus's plan?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Don't forget the baby.
> 
> Again, I don't know if it's even still a possibility, but if the Kwan baby is born on the island, that's a first, right? No baby has been born there. So if it happens, wouldn't it be because the island let it happen? Or it would be something very important to the island?
> 
> Baby Kwan FTW!





uncdrew said:


> Uh dood?
> 
> Claire had Aaron on the island.


Aaron was conceived off the island and born on it.

Ji Yeon was conceived on the island and born off it.


----------



## jr461 (Jul 9, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> When Ilana asked Miles how Jacob has died, I expected Miles to respond with "Jacob is NOT dead".


Exactly what I was thinking!!

Was off-island Ben's mention of the island to his dad the first time anyone in the off-island reality mentioned the island?


----------



## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

Fish Man said:


> In this episode, we see "Alternate Reality" Ben tenderly and lovingly caring for his elderly and ailing father.


Yes, total inverse of the Island Reality...Ben was giving his father oxygen here, as opposed to gassing him to death. Helping him to breathe, instead of stopping his breathing. Nice touch.

Also, his father had remorse that Ben's life had not turned out the way he wanted...instead of blaming Ben for the way his own life had turned out.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

smickola said:


> Yes, total inverse of the Island Reality...Ben was giving his father oxygen here, as opposed to gassing him to death. Helping him to breathe, instead of stopping his breathing. Nice touch.
> 
> Also, his father had remorse that Ben's life had not turned out the way he wanted...instead of blaming Ben for the way his own life had turned out.


I did find it interesting about Ben's father being remorseful that Ben's life had not turned out the way he wanted...Ben had a doctorate! That is pretty impressive.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jr461 said:


> Exactly what I was thinking!!
> 
> Was off-island Ben's mention of the island to his dad the first time anyone in the off-island reality mentioned the island?


Very good point. That really caught me off guard.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

The whole scene with Ben's dad was very well done, I thought. And the aging effects were remarkably convincing. Great work on that.


----------



## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Bryanmc said:


> I thought Richard said that he was given a gift by Jacob and anyone Jacob touches is given a gift. I didn't take that to mean everyone would live forever, but that there would be different gifts for different people.


Richard just said that Jacob "touched him" and that explains why he didn't age. He also said that he could not kill himself...that he had to be killed.

I think from this we may infer that anybody touched by Jacob will no longer age but can still be killed a la Locke.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jking said:


> He probably could have gotten him to quit and still write the letter, but the only thing I could figure is a recommendation letter coming from a former principal wouldn't carry enough weight to get her into a school like Yale.


Not just a former principal, but a former principal who had had inappropriate relations on school property. The point of Ben blackmailing the principal was not to threaten his job. The principal's job was lost whether Ben went public with the information or he quit. The trade was for the principal to be able to resign with dignity in exchange for recommending Ben as his replacement.

So it's not as if the e-mails gave Ben an unlimited hold over the principal, allowing him to demand anything he wanted. What he was asking for was actually relatively minor, especially for a principal who didn't really care about the school or who would replace him.

Without Alex, Ben had nothing to lose whether he went public with the information or not. However, because of the letter of recommendation she needed, going public would have had consequences that could have potentially negatively affected her. Ben could have taken the chance, and perhaps everything would have worked out. But once Alex got involved, he wasn't willing to take any risks.

Contrast that to when she had the gun pointed at her head. I think even Island Ben would have done something if he actually thought she was going to die. But he thought Keamy was bluffing, and decided to take the risk with her life.



spikedavis said:


> No he's right.
> 
> Original Losties are in 2007 now.
> 
> Alt-Losties are in 2004.


The point is that if there is a connection between the universes, it is a connection that transcends space and time. Thus, years are irrelevant.



mmilton80 said:


> Also in Dr. Linus, we learned that Smokey too is looking for an Island Protector (which is weird as we have heard that Smokey wants to kill every living thing on the island).


I wonder if Smokey can't leave until someone takes his place. What if it's not Jacob and MIB specifically that have been in this indefinite struggle, but their positions? What if Jacob dying was not a loophole, but part of the cycle of the people in their positions finding replacements, and those replacements continuing the cycle?

If that is the case, then I wonder if there are two open positions, and each finds his or her replacement, or one, and whoever gets replaced is the one allowed to leave.



uncdrew said:


> But I quickly found myself thinking: "Why is he going with her? Locke promised him that he could be in charge of the Island. Doesn't he want that? What can she offer him?"


I think he was finally ready to give up what he could not before: his power.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

jr461 said:


> Exactly what I was thinking!!
> 
> Was off-island Ben's mention of the island to his dad the first time anyone in the off-island reality mentioned the island?


I think it was the first time.

As best as I can piece things together, in the "alternate reality" the island was destroyed by the H-Bomb in 1977.

However, Ben and his father speak of their time on the island (presumably prior to 1977) in fond terms, and seem to regret having left. Is it possible that they _don't know_ that the island was blown up?

To answer my own question, I think the answer is: The island and everything about it is so shrouded in secret (in either reality) that once "alternate reality" Ben and his dad left, they have no information or knowledge about the island whatsoever, including its destruction.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Bryanmc said:


> I thought Richard said that he was given a gift by Jacob and anyone Jacob touches is given a gift. I didn't take that to mean everyone would live forever, but that there would be different gifts for different people.


That's how I took it. And we started to try and figure out what those gifts were. We thought Jack's was the ability to lead. Locke had the ability to walk again (on the island), Kate got her freedom, Sun got her baby, even though she was supposedly infirtle. That's all I can think of, but there's probably more...


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jr461 said:


> Exactly what I was thinking!!
> 
> Was off-island Ben's mention of the island to his dad the first time anyone in the off-island reality mentioned the island?


What was funny, was I paused at the point where they first started talking and my son and I both wondered what they were going to do about his mother dying in childbirth on the island. Were they going to mention it? And they did.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> I think it was the first time.
> 
> As best as I can piece things together, in the "alternate reality" the island was destroyed by the H-Bomb in 1977.
> 
> ...


But in the main timeline they never left. They were still there when the bomb apparently went off. Ben had been shot by Sayid and was revived by the Others, and Roger was still with Dharma and assumed Ben was dead.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

danplaysbass said:


> Richard just said that Jacob "touched him" and that explains why he didn't age. He also said that he could not kill himself...that he had to be killed.
> 
> I think from this we may infer that anybody touched by Jacob will no longer age but can still be killed a la Locke.


I never infired that at all. I thought everyone got a gift from Jacob, but I never thought everyone got the SAME gift. Not aging was Richard's gift only.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> I wonder if Smokey can't leave until someone takes his place. What if it's not Jacob and MIB specifically that have been in this indefinite struggle, but their positions? What if Jacob dying was not a loophole, but part of the cycle of the people in their positions finding replacements, and those replacements continuing the cycle?
> 
> If that is the case, then I wonder if there are two open positions, and each finds his or her replacement, or one, and whoever gets replaced is the one allowed to leave.


I really think he was just trying to manipulate Ben to come over to his side and that he doesn't intend to appoint a replacement or another leader of the island. He figures that's what Ben wants, so that's what he offered. It's his MO. He lied to Claire about the Others having her baby, he manipulated Ben into killing Jacob by appearing as Alex and telling Ben to do whatever Locke (himself) told him to do, he manipulated Richard into telling time traveling Locke to go off-island and die so that he could gain control of Locke's form when his body returned. There's no reason to think he's actually going to give Sayid "whatever he wants" when this is all over, and no reason to think he was telling Ben the truth either.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Beyond psyched how they did the scene with Miles bringing up Niki & Paulo. He dug up the diamonds after that, and mentioned that they were buried alive.


Can you remind me what happened there? I remember Nikki and Paolo getting bit by spiders and being buried alive, but I don't remember anything about diamonds or any interaction Miles may have had.



jkeegan said:


> About Jacob's final thoughts..
> 
> So does that mean Jacob was just thinking "oh man.. I bet Ben's going to kill me. Damn, I'm toast. I don't want to die.. I'll try reminding him that he has a choice, but damn.. I'm gonna die. I hope I'm wrong about him and he doesn't kill me",
> 
> ...


OR: Jacob knew that Ben would kill him and knew that several days later, Ilana would have Miles "read" his ashes and out Ben. Knowing this, Jacob made sure to have a thought in his head that, when relayed to a now remorseful Ben, would have the desired effect of making Ben realize that Jacob always had faith in him, which would result in Ben rejecting the deal offered by UnLocke.


mmilton80 said:


> Charles Widmore has apparently found another way to the island...although, would a lighthouse help a submarine? (referencing the Lighthouse episode) I wonder if we will see more people make their way to the island (particularly Desmond)


But would Jacob be using his Lighthouse to help Widmore return to the Island? Presumable, Widmore is on UnLocke's side, not Jacob's.


Fish Man said:


> *Absolutely not at all.*
> 
> I thought it was played _perfectly_ as the caring compassionate teacher and outstanding student, that he cares about _like a daughter_. No "pedophilia" vibe at all.
> 
> ...


Not to mention that if Ben had any pedophile tendencies, he would have invited Alex into his house when she was standing on his porch asking for tutoring. Instead, he suggested a time and place that would be extremely appropriate and avoid any appearance of impropriety.


Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sayid made the wrong decision in Otherworld, and he was doomed on the island. Ben made the right decision in Otherworld, and he was saved on the island. Kate ran in Otherworld, and she is a fugitive on the island.
> 
> I'm really starting to think that it's not just a thematic link...that people's actions on Otherworld have a direct impact on their lives on the island.


I think you've got it wrong with Sayid. Sayid made the wrong choice on the Island (siding with UnLocke) and then we saw in his LA X timeline that he's still tortured, still pining for Nadia, and still finds his way into situations that result in him being a murderer. Those who are choosing Jacob's side on the Island are being shown to be redeemed in the LA X timeline, while those who are choosing UnLocke on the Island are being shown not to be happy and not to be redeemed. I'm anxiously awaiting a Sawyer LA X episode to see what's changed for him.


Steveknj said:


> What was funny, was I paused at the point where they first started talking and my son and I both wondered what they were going to do about his mother dying in childbirth on the island. Were they going to mention it? And they did.


But Ben's mom didn't die in childbirth on the Island. She died in childbirth in Oregon, before Ben and his father ever went to the Island.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Can you remind me what happened there? I remember Nikki and Paolo getting bit by spiders and being buried alive, but I don't remember anything about diamonds or any interaction Miles may have had.


I don't remember the specifics of the diamonds, but Miles didn't have any interaction with them until last night's episode, when he read what happened by being near their graves.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

DancnDude said:


> Oh yeah and I loved that Flocke waved his hand and Ben's shackle was just instantly opened.


The force is strong with this one.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> As best as I can piece things together, in the "alternate reality" the island was destroyed by the H-Bomb in 1977.
> 
> However, Ben and his father speak of their time on the island (presumably prior to 1977) in fond terms, and seem to regret having left. Is it possible that they _don't know_ that the island was blown up?


Except that I'm not sure how fondly they would think of the place Ben got shot and almost died. And if Ben did not get shot, then that means the 815ers did not go back in time, which means the events leading to them setting off the H-bomb did not happen either. Although I suppose nothing precludes the H-bomb going off for some other reason.

I wonder, however, if the Incident wasn't still the original energy released when the Dharma Initiative were digging at the Swan site. Perhaps the sideways flashes are showing the "original" timeline where the Dharma Initiative went to an island to conduct experiments. They hit the pocket of energy, causing an explosion that sunk the island. As far as anyone knew in that timeline, that's all that happened.

However, what actually happened was that the release of energy split the timeline in two. In one timeline, the island sunk. But in the other, a more chaotic timeline formed, with the warping of the timeline spreading both to the future and the past relative to the time of the Incident.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Can you remind me what happened there? I remember Nikki and Paolo getting bit by spiders and being buried alive, but I don't remember anything about diamonds or any interaction Miles may have had.





aindik said:


> I don't remember the specifics of the diamonds, but Miles didn't have any interaction with them until last night's episode, when he read what happened by being near their graves.


Nikki and Paolo had stolen diamonds from someone in Australia and spent almost their entire time on island looking for their suitcase that held the diamonds. Nikki found out that Paolo had found them and used the spiders to paralyze him. She ended up getting bitten too. Sawyer found the diamonds and threw them in their graves with them during their funeral (thinking they were dead when they were actually only paralyzed).

Wow. I know way too much about that episode.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

I think the whole "finding replacements" is a red herring... Would they take a plotline from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?


----------



## Bribo (Feb 17, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Interesting:
> 
> 1) Both Jacob and MIB need to have a successor
> 2) Anyone Jacob touches can't die? He wore gloves when he saw Ilana. But he touched Locke and Locke died. Maybe it's only on the island.
> ...


Locke was already dead when he touched him, after the fall, but doesn't expalin why Ben was able to kill him later,


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> I don't remember the specifics of the diamonds, but Miles didn't have any interaction with them until last night's episode, when he read what happened by being near their graves.


I have a vague memory of Miles mentioning something about them last season. Am I wrong? And what was jkeegan talking about with Miles digging up the diamonds?


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

What a great episode! Loved seeing Jack become a man of faith - just like Jacob said he would after some time of thinking. I'm starting to wonder about UnLocke's endgame. I'm wondering if all he really wants is to leave the island, and now he can since Jacob's dead. Was Jacob the tether that was keeping him on the island?



astrohip said:


> PS: The captions have been terrible this season on LOST. Over five seasons I've never had a problem; this season there are lots of missing captions, and they are often displayed late. Late enough that the next person is already speaking by the time the first speaker's words appear.


I watch LOST with captions and I've never had a problem with it. The timing and the pacing are all correct with no missing dialogue. I would look into your signal, maybe your TiVo, or what else might be the issue.



Johnny Dancing said:


> Why didn't Ben tell the Principal he also had to write the letter of recommendation along with his other demands or he would out him? I couldn't figure out why he could get the guy to quit his job, recommend him to the board, but couldn't get him to write a recommendation letter for Alex.


As people have already said, the long-term effect of Alex going to Yale was more important and Ben did not want any chance of the principal "torching" Alex's future. However, for those of you who are saying the whole thing was meaningless, the end of the show shows Ben still having power by manipulating the principal into restoring the History Club and finding someone else to supervise detention.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

My wife has the LOST Supper as her desktop wallpaper and we were talking this morning in the computer room. I happened to look at the wallpaper again and I couldn't help notice if this show wasn't giving us big honkin' clues on who would end up on what team. It's even more evident after last night.










The only thing I'm not sure is about the placement of Richard and Ilana.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I have a vague memory of Miles mentioning something about them last season. Am I wrong?


I don't remember.



DevdogAZ said:


> And what was jkeegan talking about with Miles digging up the diamonds?


Miles was shown admiring one of the diamonds near the end of last night's episode.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

From the perspective of Sun, how long as it been since she last saw Jack? It was on the Ajira plane. How long ago was that?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> Miles was shown admiring one of the diamonds near the end of last night's episode.


Ah, thanks. I got home from work late and was falling asleep by the end of the episode, so I must have missed that.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> My wife has the LOST Supper as her desktop wallpaper and we were talking this morning in the computer room. I happened to look at the wallpaper again and I couldn't help notice if this show wasn't giving us big honkin' clues on who would end up on what team. It's even more evident after last night.
> 
> The only thing I'm not sure is about the placement of Richard and Ilana.


And Ilana and Lapidus are on different sides of the table, so if that's actually going to happen, it will be interesting to see how they get there.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jking said:


> Yeah, and that little move furthers my theory that he did the same thing when Sawyer was on the ladder (in The Substitute) to cause the ladder to collapse so he could "save" Sawyer and help him to earn his trust.


Good catch.
I missed that one.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jking said:


> I'm not too sure. He's already told Sawyer the island doesn't need protecting, that it's just an island. So is he really looking for an island protector, or was that just his way of luring Ben over to his side... knowing being leader of the island would be what Ben would probably ultimately want?


I'm getting the vibe that Smokey is promising each recruit what they want most, so far it feels like the following offers were suggested

Ben gets the Island
Sayid gets Nadia
Sawyer gets.. well I don't remember
Clair would get Aaron
If that's Smokey's MO I can see how powerful that could be to get recruits. I certainly got the feeling that the reason Clair was so adamant that the Others had Aaron on the island was that "her friend" was telling her so.

Diane


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

A girl at work has an interesting theory. She thinks MiB is actually a candidate who was granted long life like Richard. He doesn't want to be a candidate and that's why he wants to go home and why he wants to kill Jacob. MiB can't kill himself (like Richard and Jack can't kill themselves) and the rules of the island prevent him from killing Jacob.

What I thought was interesting was MiB telling Sawyer they are getting off the island but telling Ben he needs him to "watch over" the island.

So maybe there is only one group of candidates chosen by Jacob but MiB is trying to make some of them go bad or something, and one of Jacob's candidates who has strayed from the path (following Smokey) will be the island's keeper.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> I'm getting the vibe that Smokey is promising each recruit what they want most, so far it feels like the following offers were suggested
> 
> Ben gets the Island
> Sayid gets Nadia
> ...


Sawyer wants off the island.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> And Ilana and Lapidus are on different sides of the table, so if that's actually going to happen, it will be interesting to see how they get there.


Isn't Lapidus in the correct place as of now, but Ilana isn't (in the picture)?


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

aindik said:


> From the perspective of Sun, how long as it been since she last saw Jack? It was on the Ajira plane. How long ago was that?


I'm not sure. The question is when Jack jumped back to the present, how much time had elapsed since he went back in time? I guess it's supposed to be the same amount of time, as it seems that Sawyer et. al. lived in the past the same amount of time as Jack et. al. lived in the present.

I think the real issue is that Sun didn't know if Jack was dead or alive, so that's why she was so happy and surprised to see him. Although her reaction should have been, "Yeah, nice to see you, whatever, where's Jin?"


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> I watch LOST with captions and I've never had a problem with it. The timing and the pacing are all correct with no missing dialogue. I would look into your signal, maybe your TiVo, or what else might be the issue.


Thanks, that tells me it must be my local affiliate (KTRK Houston). BTW, you are watching in HD?

IAC, I'm still hoping someone will post the line or two Richard said that makes everyone think he was on the Black Rock (or gives any info on his background).

Thanks!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> IAC, I'm still hoping someone will post the line or two Richard said that makes everyone think he was on the Black Rock (or gives any info on his background).


He said something about how he hasn't been back to the Black Rock since he arrived on the island, didn't he?

It wasn't definitive, but they made it pretty clear that the BR is how he got here.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He said something about how he hasn't been back to the Black Rock since he arrived on the island, didn't he?
> 
> It wasn't definitive, but they made it pretty clear that the BR is how he got here.


That is how I took it. Note, however, that doesn't necessarily mean he was a slave - he could well have been a slaver and/or one of the Black Rock's crew.


----------



## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

Where does an entity like "Smokey" go when it leaves the island? It can't be to the regular mainland, I don't see him hanging out at the mall or malt shop.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> On a side note....was it just me, or did anyone else get a weird pedophelia vibe the way Ben acted with Alex?


I think it's mainly that Michael Emerson/Ben is simply creepy, and so we tend to see everything he does in that light. I think Fish Man is absolutely right that the intention of the writers was to portray Dr. Linus as being completely above-board and proper, but it's difficult to do so when Emerson is so fantastically creepy to begin with.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> ...does it point more towards Jacob having a longer planned set of moves than his own death, and he anticipated that he'd be killed by Ben (and planned moves after that) but was hoping that he was somehow wrong and that Ben wouldn't do it...


That is how I took it. Jacob knew/anticipated that he'd be killed by Ben, and planned accordingly, but was hoping that he was wrong.


----------



## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> That is how I took it. Note, however, that doesn't necessarily mean he was a slave - he could well have been a slaver and/or one of the Black Rock's crew.


Perhaps Ricardus was a slaver and there was a mutiny on the ship and the slaves took over and chained up the "masters." This could explain the comment that Jacob (or was it MiB) made about "nice to see you out of chains."


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

lpamelaa said:


> Perhaps Ricardus was a slaver and there was a mutiny on the ship and the slaves took over and chained up the "masters." This could explain the comment that Jacob (or was it MiB) made about "nice to see you out of chains."


BTW, when was dynamite invented? The Black Rock looks like it's probably from the late 1700s or early to mid 1800s? No? I thought dynamite was newer than that. I could be totally wrong...and probably am


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Except that I'm not sure how fondly they would think of the place Ben got shot and almost died. And if Ben did not get shot, then that means the 815ers did not go back in time, which means the events leading to them setting off the H-bomb did not happen either. Although I suppose nothing precludes the H-bomb going off for some other reason.
> 
> I wonder, however, if the Incident wasn't still the original energy released when the Dharma Initiative were digging at the Swan site. Perhaps the sideways flashes are showing the "original" timeline where the Dharma Initiative went to an island to conduct experiments. They hit the pocket of energy, causing an explosion that sunk the island. As far as anyone knew in that timeline, that's all that happened.
> 
> However, what actually happened was that the release of energy split the timeline in two. In one timeline, the island sunk. But in the other, a more chaotic timeline formed, with the warping of the timeline spreading both to the future and the past relative to the time of the Incident.


I think we've seen evidence (Jacks sideways universe in LA) that indicates that the split in the 2 storylines predates the 1977 'incident'. Jack's appendicitis as a boy, Ben & his Dad having left the island (they were still there in the H-bomb season ending), etc. The incident's effect on the story is far deeper than some lifeline split duality starting in '77. What is really going on is still beyond my surmise. That's why I love LOST.


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Michelle Rodriguez Jr. should have skipped the whole "dig your own grave" deal and just shot Linus. Let the buzzards take care of the body.


Correction. Michelle played Ana Lucia. Iliana is played by Zuleikha Robinson.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

verdugan said:


> Correction. Michelle played Ana Lucia. Iliana is played by Zuleikha Robinson.


I think the poster knew that. Thus the "Jr". They have similarities.


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

LOL line of the night.

Miles, Ben, and Ilana.

Miles has just told Ilana that Ben killed Jacob and she replies that he was the closest thing to a father that she had ever had.

Miles: "Uh-Oh".


----------



## BK89 (Oct 11, 2005)

The way Richard focused on a particular set of chains hanging on the wall when he walks into the Black Rock made me think that he was a slave. This is the spot he was chained to originally on the ship and the first time he has seen them since he was there originally. This makes sense with UnLocke's comment about seeing him "out of chains".


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> That is how I took it. Note, however, that doesn't necessarily mean he was a slave - he could well have been a slaver and/or one of the Black Rock's crew.


No, but we do know that at one point, he was in chains.


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## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> I think the poster knew that. Thus the "Jr". They have similarities.


Missed that it was a joke. So the point of OP's joke is that both of them have brown skin, so they're similar? Michelle is hispanic and Zuleikha is British/Indian. I don't think he meant that the characters are that similar (in which case, he should've said Ana Lucia Jr.).

I guess Zuleikha has more in common with Naveen Andrews (Sayid) with both of them being British.

Maybe the OP should call Josh Holloway, Matthew Fox Jr. 

But whatever, let's move on from this.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

astrohip said:


> Thanks, that tells me it must be my local affiliate (KTRK Houston). BTW, you are watching in HD?


Affirmative.



astrohip said:


> IAC, I'm still hoping someone will post the line or two Richard said that makes everyone think he was on the Black Rock (or gives any info on his background). Thanks!


It's more of how Richard examines the Black Rock and the chains.

Jack: Been here before?

Richard: (chuckles) Yes, and in all the time I've been here on this island, this is the first time I've come back.


----------



## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> On a side note....was it just me, or did anyone else get a weird pedophelia vibe the way Ben acted with Alex? It didn't seem like a father-daughter or mentor-student relationship. I also thought it would have been cool if they had Rousseau be his wife/gf.


No, but only because a pedophile is attracted to pre-pubescent children, not teenagers.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Another trivia tidbit that I found mildly interesting is that this episode was directed by Mario Van Peebles. How random.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> I think we've seen evidence (Jacks sideways universe in LA) that indicates that the split in the 2 storylines predates the 1977 'incident'. Jack's appendicitis as a boy, Ben & his Dad having left the island (they were still there in the H-bomb season ending), etc. The incident's effect on the story is far deeper than some lifeline split duality starting in '77. What is really going on is still beyond my surmise. That's why I love LOST.


I don't think so. How old is Jack? He could have had his appendix out in 78 when he was six or so, making him 35.

And I get the impression that the otherworld Ben & dad could have left post-nuke as the island was sinking or something. It never was definitively stated in the ep when or how they left the island. And we don't have enough info on when the island sunk to make a definitive conclusion about what the nuke did exactly. Dahrma could have left the island because it became unstable, etc.

I'm positive it's intended by the writers that the nuke was the branching/separation point, no question.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> Isn't Lapidus in the correct place as of now, but Ilana isn't (in the picture)?


Yes, that's correct. Ilana and Richard appear to be on the "evil" side, assuming the people in the picture are placed on sides at all.


DreadPirateRob said:


> That is how I took it. Note, however, that doesn't necessarily mean he was a slave - he could well have been a slaver and/or one of the Black Rock's crew.


I think it was something about the way he said he hadn't been back since he first left as he was looking at the shackles, as well as UnLocke's line earlier in the season about seeing him out of the shackles, that was supposed to clue us in to the fact that he came to the Island as a prisoner aboard that ship. (Sorry for the smeek. I typed that a while ago and then got a couple phone calls and never hit submit).

However, I doubt it was a slave ship. My guess is it was a prisoner ship transporting prisoners to Australia.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

verdugan said:


> Missed that it was a joke. So the point of OP's joke is that both of them have brown skin, so they're similar? Michelle is hispanic and Zuleikha is British/Indian. I don't think he meant that the characters are that similar (in which case, he should've said Ana Lucia Jr.).
> 
> I guess Zuleikha has more in common with Naveen Andrews (Sayid) with both of them being British.
> 
> ...


Easy there, turbo. I'm fairly certain the joke was that the characters are similar - because, let's face it, they are - but he couldn't remember/was too lazy to look up Ana Lucia's name. Let's not immediately jump to the race card, mmmkay?


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Peter000 said:


> I don't think so. How old is Jack? He could have had his appendix out in 78 when he was six or so, making him 35.
> 
> And I get the impression that the otherworld Ben & dad could have left post-nuke as the island was sinking or something. It never was definitively stated in the ep when or how they left the island. And we don't have enough info on when the island sunk to make a definitive conclusion about what the nuke did exactly. Dahrma could have left the island because it became unstable, etc.
> 
> I'm positive it's intended by the writers that the nuke was the branching/separation point, no question.


The dad says something about them staying on the island Ben could have turned out different. So it doesn't seem they were forced to leave but chose to do so.

So we know that the island had not been sunk in the mid-70s. But we also know something changed the timeline to where Jack needed his appendix out when he was a kid instead of a boy.

So sometime between 1970 and 1977?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Any significance to the fact that we saw the book "The Chosen" by Chaim Potok when Ben was going through stuff at the beach?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

bigpuma said:


> No, but only because a pedophile is attracted to pre-pubescent children, not teenagers.


splitting hairs, but she's still underage...not sure if the law sees it differently or not.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Steveknj said:


> splitting hairs, but she's still underage...not sure if the law sees it differently or not.


The law does not see a difference but from a psychological point of view there are differences.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Queue said:


> The dad says something about them staying on the island Ben could have turned out different. So it doesn't seem they were forced to leave but chose to do so.
> 
> So we know that the island had not been sunk in the mid-70s. But we also know something changed the timeline to where Jack needed his appendix out when he was a kid instead of a boy.
> 
> So sometime between 1970 and 1977?


I don't remember the dialog exactly, but the Ben's dad was wondering how Ben's life could have been different had they _not gone to the island in the first place._ Not if they had stayed on the island. There was no indication why they left, if they were forced or chose to leave.

And what I'm saying was in 1977 or so, Jack was still a kid, about the age he mom said he had his appendix out. So whatever butterfly effect the nuke on the island had could have had caused Jack's appendicitis.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Peter000 said:


> I don't remember the dialog exactly, but the Ben's dad was wondering how Ben's life could have been different had they _not gone to the island in the first place._ Not if they had stayed on the island. There was no indication why they left, if they were forced or chose to leave.
> 
> And what I'm saying was in 1977 or so, Jack was still a kid, about the age he mom said he had his appendix out. So whatever butterfly effect the nuke on the island had could have had caused Jack's appendicitis.


I think you're mis-remembering. Ben's dad talked about how the people on the island were nice and good people. He then wondered how different their lives would have been if they hadn't left the island. He might have meant he wondered how different their lives would have been if they hadn't been forced to leave, but I certainly didn't get the impression that that's what he was saying.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> I don't remember the dialog exactly, but the Ben's dad was wondering how Ben's life could have been different had they _not gone to the island in the first place._ Not if they had stayed on the island. There was no indication why they left, if they were forced or chose to leave.


I also don't remember the exact dialogue, but got the impression Roger Linus was expressing regret that they left the Island, not that they ever went there in the first place. Perhaps it was a bit of both.


----------



## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sayid made the wrong decision in Otherworld, and he was doomed on the island. Ben made the right decision in Otherworld, and he was saved on the island. Kate ran in Otherworld, and she is a fugitive on the island.
> 
> I'm really starting to think that it's not just a thematic link...that people's actions on Otherworld have a direct impact on their lives on the island.


As others have noted, this is a very interesting theory. But two things that don't seem to fit with this -

1) Sayid making a "wrong choice" off-island that dooms him on-island - what other choice did he have off-island - he followed Nadia's request that he not seek out the gangsters - they came to him.

2) Locke's entire story off-island - why is that even relevant since Locke is dead on-island? Doesn't seem worth spending a whole episode on since there is no one to impact on-island.

I lean more toward the reverse theory others have mentioned - the off-island stuff is how their lives will unfold if Jacob never interferes in their lives, and will be triggered by the events unfolding on-island.

On a separate note, I want to echo the praise for Michael Emerson. For me, one of the most impressive things about his performance was watching him standing on the beach after he'd been outed by Miles and trying to help, realizing no one cared about him or wanted him there - he was truly a broken man.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Easy there, turbo. I'm fairly certain the joke was that the characters are similar - because, let's face it, they are - but he couldn't remember/was too lazy to look up Ana Lucia's name. Let's not immediately jump to the race card, mmmkay?


I agree with this. I didn't take the "Jr" comment to be anything other than a comparison of the characters' actions. I hadn't thought about it before, but as soon as I saw the "Jr" I thought yeah, two tough hot chicks toting guns....very similar. Also, weren't both in law enforcement, Ana a cop and Ilana had Sayid as a prisoner, but don't remember why, but somehow involved in law enforcement?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Any significance to the fact that we saw the book "The Chosen" by Chaim Potok when Ben was going through stuff at the beach?


It is at least in part a book about someone with "daddy issues."

And I'm wondering if this Ilana character would exist at all if Michelle Rodriguez hasn't gotten arrested for drunk driving.


----------



## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I also don't remember the exact dialogue, but got the impression Roger Linus was expressing regret that they left the Island, not that they ever went there in the first place. Perhaps it was a bit of both.


Agreed - doesn't sound like they were forced to leave, but chose to - the dialogue was:

Dad - This isn't the life I wanted for you Ben. I wanted so much more.

Ben - I know.

Dad - That's why I signed up for that damned Dharma initiative and took you to the island. They were decent people...smarter than I'll ever be. Imagine how different our lives would have been if we'd stayed.

Ben - Yes, we would have both lived happily ever after.

Dad - No, I'm serious Ben - who knows what you would have become.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Johnny Dancing said:


> Where does an entity like "Smokey" go when it leaves the island? It can't be to the regular mainland, I don't see him hanging out at the mall or malt shop.


Planet Qaxlin


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

3D said:


> I think you're mis-remembering. Ben's dad talked about how the people on the island were nice and good people. He then wondered how different their lives would have been if they hadn't left the island. He might have meant he wondered how different their lives would have been if they hadn't been forced to leave, but I certainly didn't get the impression that that's what he was saying.





DevdogAZ said:


> I also don't remember the exact dialogue, but got the impression Roger Linus was expressing regret that they left the Island, not that they ever went there in the first place. Perhaps it was a bit of both.


Here's the dialog from that scene:

Dad: How was work?

Ben: (as he's changing oxygen tanks) I have a doctorate in Modern European History and yet I'm babysitting burnouts in detention.

Dad: Detention, huh?

Ben: The worst of it is as I look out at those ingrates that I'm tasked with watching, I can't help thinking that I'm more a loser than any of them.

Dad: This isn't the life I wanted for you, Ben. I wanted so much more.

Ben: I know.

Dad: That's why I signed up for that damn Dharma initiative took you to the island and... they were decent people, smarter than I'll ever be. Imagine how different our lives would have been if we had stayed.

Ben: Yes, we would have lived happily ever after.

Dad: No I'm serious Ben. Who knows what you would have become.

So I guess you're right, I was misremembering a bit. After Roger said "That damn Dharma initiative..." my brain went to a negative place and assumed he regretted going to the island, and I interpreted "staying" as staying on the mainland instead of going to the damn island.

But. they still could have left after the nuke, Roger rightfully assuming that the island, with all of the gunfights and nuclear bombs going off was just too dangerous to stay.


----------



## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

astrohip said:


> Thanks, that tells me it must be my local affiliate (KTRK Houston). BTW, you are watching in HD?
> 
> IAC, I'm still hoping someone will post the line or two Richard said that makes everyone think he was on the Black Rock (or gives any info on his background).
> 
> Thanks!


As they enter the Black Rock, Richard looks around and kneels by a pair of manacles attached to the side of the ship (these are empty, unlike many others that have skeleton arms in them).

Jack - You been here before?

Richard - Yes. (chuckles) And in all the time that I've spent on this island, today is the first time I've ever come back.


----------



## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

aindik said:


> It is at least in part a book about someone with "daddy issues."
> 
> And I'm wondering if this Ilana character would exist at all if Michelle Rodriguez hasn't gotten arrested for drunk driving.


Wouldn't that have been interesting to the narrative, if it was Ana Lucia (instead of Ilana) that was Jacob's bodyguard?


----------



## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

Bryanmc said:


> I thought Richard said that he was given a gift by Jacob and anyone Jacob touches is given a gift. I didn't take that to mean everyone would live forever, but that there would be different gifts for different people.





danplaysbass said:


> Richard just said that Jacob "touched him" and that explains why he didn't age.


It was actually a bit more detailed:

When walking in the jungle and Hurley is asking why Richard doesn't age ("are you a cyborg, a vampire..."), Richard says "Jacob gave me a gift."

Later, inside the Black Rock, he is more specific:

Richard - I can't kill myself. Even if I wanted to, and trust me I do, I can't kill myself. Which is why I want you to do it for me.

Jack - What are you talking about?

Richard - What I'm talking about Jack, is that Jacob touched me. And when Jacob touches you, well, it's considered a gift. But it's not a gift at all - it's a curse."


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I hope this isn't a smeek, but how cheesy looking was the last scene with the sub, really? I mean, it's cool that Widmore is there and all, but it seriously looked like something straight out of a 60's episode of Get Smart.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

vman said:


> 2) Locke's entire story off-island - why is that even relevant since Locke is dead on-island? Doesn't seem worth spending a whole episode on since there is no one to impact on-island.


I don't think the Real Locke is done in the island timeline. He will still be serving some kind of purpose on the island.


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

jking said:


> I hope this isn't a smeek, but how cheesy looking was the last scene with the sub, really? I mean, it's cool that Widmore is there and all, but it seriously looked like something straight out of a 60's episode of Get Smart.


:up:


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> But. they still could have left after the nuke, Roger rightfully assuming that the island, with all of the gunfights and nuclear bombs going off was just too dangerous to stay.


I thought the nuke changed things to the point where Oceanic doesn't crash, so they're never there to set off the nuke in the first place. The island Ben and Roger know about never had a nuke.

But they clearly made a good call in leaving with the island being underwater and all...


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

vman said:


> As they enter the Black Rock, Richard looks around and kneels by a pair of manacles attached to the side of the ship (these are empty, unlike many others that have skeleton arms in them).
> 
> Jack - You been here before?
> 
> Richard - Yes. (chuckles) And in all the time that I've spent on this island, today is the first time I've ever come back.


Interesting parallel in this episode between Richard and Ben. We saw UnLocke free Ben from his bindings at gravesite with a wave of his arm. I wonder when, exactly, Jacob touched Richard. Wouldn't surprise me if we learn that Richard spent quite a bit of time manacled in the Black Rock after it landed on the island. The other slaves/prisoners died in their chains, but at some point Jacob came to Richard, freeing him with a wave of his arm and touching him and giving him the 'gift' of immortality.



vman said:


> It was actually a bit more detailed:
> 
> When walking in the jungle and Hurley is asking why Richard doesn't age ("are you a cyborg, a vampire..."), Richard says "Jacob gave me a gift."
> 
> ...


We have had a number of characters on this show try to kill themselves and fail because they were touched. There was a list of them earlier in this thread. I wonder about Michael's inclusion on that list. He did have an unsuccessful suicide attempt, true, but what about what happened on the freighter? Didn't he sacrifice himself, causing his own death? Or am I misremembering? Is the rule "you can't kill yourself, unless you are martyring yourself for a greater good?" This makes me think about Jacob's own death and the loophole, and that Jacob was in fact martyring himself. He needed to die to further his own agenda, but he couldn't kill himself, so he played MIB into doing it for him.


----------



## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

I loved that Ben is telling the class about Napoleon being exiled to the island of Elba and being most upset over his loss of power rather than his actual exile. I wasn't sure if the comparison was being made to Ben or MiB though. Perhaps both?


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

vman said:


> As they enter the Black Rock, Richard looks around and kneels by a pair of *manacles *attached to the side of the ship (these are empty, unlike many others that have skeleton arms in them).


Sexist! You should call them personacles.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

danterner said:


> We have had a number of characters on this show try to kill themselves and fail because they were touched. There was a list of them earlier in this thread. I wonder about Michael's inclusion on that list. He did have an unsuccessful suicide attempt, true, but what about what happened on the freighter? Didn't he sacrifice himself, causing his own death? Or am I misremembering? Is the rule "you can't kill yourself, unless you are martyring yourself for a greater good?" This makes me think about Jacob's own death and the loophole, and that Jacob was in fact martyring himself. He needed to die to further his own agenda, but he couldn't kill himself, so he played MIB into doing it for him.


IIRC, Michael was "allowed" to die on the freighter after keeping the bomb frozen long enough to save some other characters. Didn't someone appear to him just before the bomb went off and basically tell him it was now OK for him to be done? I don't remember it exactly, but I have a vague recollection of there being a clear indication to Michael that his purpose had been fulfilled and he was free.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> IIRC, Michael was "allowed" to die on the freighter after keeping the bomb frozen long enough to save some other characters. Didn't someone appear to him just before the bomb went off and basically tell him it was now OK for him to be done? I don't remember it exactly, but I have a vague recollection of there being a clear indication to Michael that his purpose had been fulfilled and he was free.


Whoever it was was in the form of Christian Shepard.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> I don't think the Real Locke is done in the island timeline. He will still be serving some kind of purpose on the island.


As wormfood?
Mulch?



DevdogAZ said:


> IIRC, Michael was "allowed" to die on the freighter after keeping the bomb frozen long enough to save some other characters. Didn't someone appear to him just before the bomb went off and basically tell him it was now OK for him to be done? I don't remember it exactly, but I have a vague recollection of there being a clear indication to Michael that his purpose had been fulfilled and he was free.


That someone who appeared was in the form of Christian.
So was it a manifestation of Fake Locke or Jacob?


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## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

T-Wolves said:


> *Alex!!* What a pleasant surprise!! Tania Raymonde is absolutely gorgeous and always a welcome addition to any episode!
> 
> ...
> 
> And did I mention *Alex*!!!?


I agree ... :up:

I didn't know she's done as many guest starring roles elsewhere also (IMDB). Also looks like she's getting one of the lead roles in new series called "Look" as well...


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I wonder if the suicide rule is why Jin survived the explosion. He waved the helicopter off, sacrificing himself. Maybe the rule kicked in for him.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

If the characters somehow wind up having to loop back and cause the crash of Oceanic 815, then it could also explain how they all survived what should have been a fatal crash.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

aindik said:


> But in the main timeline they never left. They were still there when the bomb apparently went off. Ben had been shot by Sayid and was revived by the Others, and Roger was still with Dharma and assumed Ben was dead.


Darlton hates referring to a "main timeline" for some reason. Not sure what we can deduce from that. I assumed this was when Ben became an Other, but they found some way to return him to work for them inside Dharma.

I took from last night's ep that Ben was really working for Jacob and for the island all along, with a lot of end justifying the means thrown in. It seems like both sides were working to get Locke and the 6 back to the island--Ben, Widmore, Eloise. I think this is because as has been mentioned, Smokey thought he was playing Jacob, but he was actually playing right into his hands. Why Jacob wanted to be killed is still a mystery, but I think he did.



vman said:


> I lean more toward the reverse theory others have mentioned - the off-island stuff is how their lives will unfold if Jacob never interferes in their lives, and will be triggered by the events unfolding on the island.


So it makes it look like their lives were great until Jacob interfered. How was a good guy's influence so damaging?

Widmore has been trying to get back to the island ever since we met him, and couldn't. Now that Jacob is dead, he's coming right in. That has to put him in Smokey's camp. And what about Eloise?

Alex mentioned her mother, but not her father. I wonder if he died in this timeline also, even though they never went to the island. I wonder if people who died in the other timeline will die in this one too, but with different causes.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Alex mentioned her mother, but not her father. I wonder if he died in this timeline also, even though they never went to the island. I wonder if people who died in the other timeline will die in this one too, but with different causes.


What would be really interesting is if we find out that Alex's father was killed by Alex's mother (Danielle) in some kind of self-defense justified killing.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> Another trivia tidbit that I found mildly interesting is that this episode was directed by Mario Van Peebles. How random.




I think you may have zoomed me.

What is the significance of this?

I looked up Mario Van Peebles on IMDB. He's a fairly steadily working actor and director, with quite a bit of episodic television dramas on his Director's resume.

Seems like as likely a director for an episode of Lost as any, to me...


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Regarding Richard's arrival on the Black Rock.

I agree that they strongly hinted that he arrived on the Black Rock. However, several people have posted the assumption that he was a slave on that ship.

Richard seems to be an unlikely ethnicity to be a slave, isn't he?

Perhaps he was a member of the crew. Maybe even the captain...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok only made it to the top of long-thread page 4 out of 5, but I've clicked multiquote a few times so I need to reply to these now.



madscientist said:


> Well, if you're not digging you're dead. If you are digging you're alive. And who knows? Maybe a smoke monster disguised as a man you strangled will show up and offer you a chance to run a footrace to a rifle you can use to save your life.
> 
> It could happen!


:up:



DancnDude said:


> I figured that he realized his mistake in killing Jacob and realized that he still wants to follow him. Ben really did get tricked into killing Jacob to begin with so why would he go over to Flocke to be tricked again?


That reminded me of when Locke was saying to Sayid "That wasn't the first time that he tried to have someone else kill you, was it?", Sayid saying no, then Locke saying something like "well then shame on you for being fooled so easily!". Ben didn't fall for it twice (but he'd have still gone with Locke rather than die, if Illana wouldn't take him).



DancnDude said:


> Oh yeah and I loved that Flocke waved his hand and Ben's shackle was just instantly opened.


Actually that has me uneasy, because it means that technically we should be thinking about what that means smokey is capable of doing, but I don't feel like going down that rathole just yet.



smickola said:


> Yes, total inverse of the Island Reality...Ben was giving his father oxygen here, as opposed to gassing him to death. Helping him to breathe, instead of stopping his breathing. Nice touch.


Excellent, nice catch. Missed that.



Fish Man said:


> However, Ben and his father speak of their time on the island (presumably prior to 1977) in fond terms, and seem to regret having left. Is it possible that they _don't know_ that the island was blown up?


Actually that's a good point, we can now rule out the following otherwise-potential scenario:
Miles warns DrChang to evacuate everyone, Chang evacuates Dharma people, Roger leaves with the sub, (Either Ben comes home in time and leaves with the sub or leaves somehow with the Others), the bomb goes off, the island sinks, Ben and Roger live together off-island and Ben becomes a doctor.

That's not happening like that.. Roger talked about what it would have been like had they left.. He didn't say "just imagine Ben, if we hadn't left, that H bomb would have burned at our skin".. No, he thought Ben might have gone on to greatness if they stayed. They left the island together well before the drill hit the pocket. So the change that caused timelines to diverge happened BEFORE the drill hit the pocket. It was NOT the bomb.



Steveknj said:


> What was funny, was I paused at the point where they first started talking and my son and I both wondered what they were going to do about his mother dying in childbirth on the island. Were they going to mention it? And they did.


Huh? First of all, his mother died in Portland, where Ben was born, off island. Ben only got to the island when he was like 10 years old or so (I forget how old, but the kid with glasses). Also I just don't remember the line you're referring to that mentioned his mom at all - I was listening for it and don't remember hearing it.. I have to watch it again.



DevdogAZ said:


> I have a vague memory of Miles mentioning something about them last season. Am I wrong? And what was jkeegan talking about with Miles digging up the diamonds?


As was said, I was talking about the fact that now someone other than the audience knows that Niki and Paulo were buried ALIVE, and Miles got to fetch the diamonds (we see him holding one at the end of the episode).



aindik said:


> From the perspective of Sun, how long as it been since she last saw Jack? It was on the Ajira plane. How long ago was that?


I think it was days ago.. It was NOT three years.. She was on 316 with Jack, she saw (or heard of people describing that they'd seen) Jack DISAPPEAR from the plane, she landed, took a canoe to the big island, talked to Christian, talked to Locke, went with them to the statue, went with Ilana to the temple, and now sees Jack.



DreadPirateRob said:


> That is how I took it. Note, however, that doesn't necessarily mean he was a slave - he could well have been a slaver and/or one of the Black Rock's crew.


At the very least he was in chains at some point.. Either as a slave, or as someone suggested, a chained up slaver. (I was reserving room for the possibility that the slave ship showed up on the island to gather slaves and chained up Richard who was already there, but Richard's wording in the Black Rock last night made it seem that that's how he got to the island).

I particularly liked the line (which again is a Star Wars reference but I think it means more than that) where Richard says that he's been there "longer than you can possibly imagine". C'mon, Jack was in 1970, so he could easily imagine at least since then, and it's not a stretch to imagine 1950, or 1800, or 1700. So what to make of it then? I'll tell you what to make of it - I think Richard not only ends up immortal, but ends up in a time loop (like the compass) where he eventually goes back to where he arrived, and he's been through many many many many many many many many many iterations of all of this, over and over again. Of course again that doesn't jive with the idea that he's been waiting to hear what Jacob's ultimate plan is, and Jacob's death dismayed him.. But basically something like that - he's been somehow there longer than recorded time because he lived it longer than most.. Maybe he turned the wheel at some point and ended up in Tunesia thousands of years ago and refound the island, and he's been around ever since.. I dunno. I just liked the severity with which he expressed his age. 200 years won't cut it for me.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> Regarding Richard's arrival on the Black Rock.
> 
> I agree that they strongly hinted that he arrived on the Black Rock. However, several people have posted the assumption that he was a slave on that ship.
> 
> ...


That's essentially what I said, without pointing out explicitly that his ethnicity made it unlikely.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> I particularly liked the line (which again is a Star Wars reference but I think it means more than that) where Richard says that he's been there "longer than you can possibly imagine". C'mon, Jack was in 1970, so he could easily imagine at least since then, and it's not a stretch to imagine 1950, or 1800, or 1700. So what to make of it then? I'll tell you what to make of it - I think Richard not only ends up immortal, but ends up in a time loop (like the compass) where he eventually goes back to where he arrived, and he's been through many many many many many many many many many iterations of all of this, over and over again. Of course again that doesn't jive with the idea that he's been waiting to hear what Jacob's ultimate plan is, and Jacob's death dismayed him.. But basically something like that - he's been somehow there longer than recorded time because he lived it longer than most.. Maybe he turned the wheel at some point and ended up in Tunesia thousands of years ago and refound the island, and he's been around ever since.. I dunno. I just liked the severity with which he expressed his age. 200 years won't cut it for me.


So Richard is like Marvin (the paranoid android) from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? Does that mean he'll get to see God's (Jacob's?) final message to creation before he finally dies?

Hopefully it won't translate to Go Stick Your Head in a Pig....


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Regarding Ben not being on the island: if the Losties didn't crash, then Sawyer and Co. couldn't go back to 1973, and Sayid couldn't have shot Ben. That's a pivotal point in his life. So, likely, Ben was unhappy on the Island, his dad was unhappy being a workman, and they left. Remember, after he was shot, Ben had a purpose. It does make one wonder how the Island got to the bottom of the ocean, though.

And I'm confused about the timeline of Jack and Kate compared to Lapedis and Sun. It seemed like Jack and Kate may have been in Dharmaville for a month or two, while Sun and Frank only on the Island a day or two while Jack and Kate were traveling in time.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

I thought this was funny:
Jack: [A question I don't remember, either how did you get here, or where did you come from, or how long have you been here, or something like that]
Richard: You wouldn't believe me if I told you.
Jack: Try me.
Richard (pausing and almost looking directly into the camera): Not yet.

They are teasing us!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

So remind me about the Black Rock. Do we know that it was a slave ship or do we just assume that because of the shackles? Isn't it possible that it was a ship transporting prisoners to Australia (a penal colony at that time)?


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

This doesn't have much to do with this episode, but I've got questions about Sayid's and Claire's status. It may be that none of the answers are known yet, but I don't watch as carefully as y'all do, so I thought I'd ask. Thanks for any clarifications!

(1) Sayid died, and then was resurrected. Who or what caused Sayid to be resurrected, and what was the mechanism for that happening? Smokey? Jacob? Something else?

(2) Jacob made sure that Hurley got Sayid to the temple, seemingly as part of a master plan. I don't think Jacob sent him there to try to prevent him from dying, but it didn't work as he hoped. I think Jacob sent him there to die and then be resurrected and possessed/infected, just as he has been. Any comments on this theory or why Jacob might do that?

(3)(a) Dogen told Jack that Sayid is now infected with something evil which, if it gets to his "heart," he'll never be the same. But it also seems possible Dogen was skirting the truth a bit, and it's not really Sayid who came back to life, but someone/something else possessing his body. So did Sayid actually get resurrected, or his body/brain/memory just being inhabited and used by someone/something else?

(3)(b) I would have thought that whatever possessed or infected Sayid would have done so because, or possibly been enabled to because of his being a candidate. Is it possible that Sayid is actually no longer a candidate because he's really dead, and someone/something is possessing him?

(4) Based on the evil and possessed way that Claire is acting, I think we can safely assume that whatever/whoever has inflicted/possessed Sayid is also doing so to Claire. (Plus Dogen told Jack that he'd seen this infection before - in Jack's sister (i.e., Claire).) Is it possible that she's still a candidate?

Feel free to explicate anything else about these issues too! Thanks!


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Regarding Richard and the Black Rock, I'm going to make a prediction (mainly because I just want to disagree with everyone) that Richard did not arrive on the Black Rock and has instead been on the island way longer. It's certainly possible (and probable at this point) that it's a "walks like a duck" situation and is exactly as it seems. But we might also get a curveball thrown at us, and find out that Richard's interest in the ship is perhaps not because he was on board, but because he rescued someone who was a prisoner on the boat after they arrived on the island... someone who maybe he eventually fell in love with. I don't know. Just a thought.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

yeah, but didn't he specifically say he had not been to the black rock since "he got there"


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> yeah, but didn't he specifically say he had not been to the black rock since "he got there"


No. Jack asked if he'd been there before and he said yes. Then he said in all the time he'd been on the island this was the first time he'd been back.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jking said:


> No. Jack asked if he'd been there before and he said yes. Then he said in all the time he'd been on the island this was the first time he'd been back.


I'd take that to imply that Richard got to the island on The Black Rock and hasn't returned to it since then. After all, they are trying to answer questions -- not complicate things with a dwindling number of episodes left and many other issues to deal with before it's over.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

ronsch said:


> LOL line of the night.
> 
> Miles, Ben, and Ilana.
> 
> ...


I was kind of partial to "Wanna try another stick?"


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

getreal said:


> I'd take that to imply that Richard got to the island on The Black Rock and hasn't returned to it since then.


If the roles were reversed and Richard had asked Jack if he'd been there before, Jack would have answered yes too. But Jack didn't arrive on the Black Rock.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

getreal said:


> I'd take that to imply that Richard got to the island on The Black Rock and hasn't returned to it since then. After all, they are trying to answer questions -- not complicate things with a dwindling number of episodes left and many other issues to deal with before it's over.





jking said:


> If the roles were reversed and Richard had asked Jack if he'd been there before, Jack would have answered yes too. But Jack didn't arrive on the Black Rock.


But the role reversal doesn't help the storyline. The way it was presented does move the story forward.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

jking said:


> If the roles were reversed and Richard had asked Jack if he'd been there before, Jack would have answered yes too. But Jack didn't arrive on the Black Rock.


I doubt it, he would probably just say that he had been there once before.

He also wouldn't look at the interior so emotionally.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

It could be possible that Richard came _back_ on the Black Rock, but had been there before.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, he did say "in all the time I've been on the island," not "all the time I've been on the island since that one time." 

I think at this point it's pretty clear he first came to the island on the Black Rock, in whatever capacity. Which is a little disappointing; I thought he was a lot older than that, but maybe Damon & Carleton are less-versed in sci-fi than I, and more likely to be impressed with the concept of somebody being a measly two centuries old.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Rob, I still thought of you when Ben said he had a doctorate in history, and wit the short hair and glasses: admit it, you are the inspiration for Benjamin Linus!


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, he did say "in all the time I've been on the island," not "all the time I've been on the island since that one time."
> 
> I think at this point it's pretty clear he first came to the island on the Black Rock, in whatever capacity. Which is a little disappointing; I thought he was a lot older than that, but maybe Damon & Carleton are less-versed in sci-fi than I, and more likely to be impressed with the concept of somebody being a measly two centuries old.


Which is why I say that Latin is Ricardus' native tongue.

He may have come to the Island on the Black Rock but that doesn't mean he didn't live a long time before that.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> Rob, I still thought of you when Ben said he had a doctorate in history, and wit the short hair and glasses: admit it, you are the inspiration for Benjamin Linus!


Well, I suppose I could prove your point, and kill you for even suggesting such a thing...


JYoung said:


> Which is why I say that Latin is Ricardus' native tongue.
> 
> He may have come to the Island on the Black Rock but that doesn't mean he didn't live a long time before that.


I thought that until this week. Now, I think the Others spoke Latin long before Richard came to the island on the Black Rock and learned to speak Latin.

I hope he's millennia old and not just a couple of centuries. But my hope has dwindled down to pretty much nothing.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> I don't think so. How old is Jack? He could have had his appendix out in 78 when he was six or so, making him 35.
> 
> And I get the impression that the otherworld Ben & dad could have left post-nuke as the island was sinking or something. It never was definitively stated in the ep when or how they left the island. And we don't have enough info on when the island sunk to make a definitive conclusion about what the nuke did exactly. Dahrma could have left the island because it became unstable, etc.
> 
> I'm positive it's intended by the writers that the nuke was the branching/separation point, no question.


Disagree.
In the LAX world Jack had his appendix out as a kid.
In the early seasons of LOST he had it out on the Island as an adult.
Branch point (assuming even that such is a valid concept) preceeds the nuke by many years.
Q.E.D.


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

Really tired so this is probably off-base, but...

any chance MiB is Jacob's favored candidate? And now MiB is basically trying to orchestrate it so he isn't committed to staying there for years on end. I know they have been set up as foils, just trying to see some alternative outcomes.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, I suppose I could prove your point, and kill you for even suggesting such a thing...
> 
> I thought that until this week. Now, I think the Others spoke Latin long before Richard came to the island on the Black Rock and learned to speak Latin.
> 
> I hope he's millennia old and not just a couple of centuries. But my hope has dwindled down to pretty much nothing.


If he was living in Europe and had some schooling (or attended Catholic services a lot), he could have learned Latin that way.

But yeah, I would prefer he'd have learned it because he lived it.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Steveknj said:


> On a side note....was it just me, or did anyone else get a weird pedophelia vibe the way Ben acted with Alex? It didn't seem like a father-daughter or mentor-student relationship. I also thought it would have been cool if they had Rousseau be his wife/gf.


I actually got a vibe from Alex when she first came to his door at night, but not in the scenes after that.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Fish Man said:


> The only reason this scene was in the episode was to telegraph to us that this is a very different "Ben" than we've come to know.


Ummm, to also tell us that the people(well at least Ben and Roger) in the alternate timeline actually know of the island AND have been there.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Boot said:


> I don't understand why Ben even bothered digging his own grave. What's the consequence of not doing it? He's dead either way (or at least he had no reason to believe otherwise).


For exactly the same reason I would. To try and prolong it and hope for something to change.


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## Steavis (Dec 27, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> Regarding Richard's arrival on the Black Rock.
> 
> I agree that they strongly hinted that he arrived on the Black Rock. However, several people have posted the assumption that he was a slave on that ship.
> 
> ...





DreadPirateRob said:


> That's essentially what I said, without pointing out explicitly that his ethnicity made it unlikely.


For what it's worth, Lostpedia has this:



> The "Not in Portland" script describes him thus: "She is with RICHARD ALPERT. Black. Super CHARMING. Elegantly dressed. Mid-40s." However, Hispanic actor Nestor Carbonell ended up getting the part. (Lost: The Official Magazine)


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> I wonder if the suicide rule is why Jin survived the explosion. He waved the helicopter off, sacrificing himself. Maybe the rule kicked in for him.


It could also explain how Sawyer survived the jump from the helicopter.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

^^^^^

Would that mean Charlie was never a candidate?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Bananfish said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Would that mean Charlie was never a candidate?


Was he touched by Jacob?


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Would that mean Charlie was never a candidate?


Didn't Charlie Kill somone? Wasn't it an 'other', one of Jacob's chosen? The rules would say you can't kill one of Jacob's people.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Bananfish said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Would that mean Charlie was never a candidate?


I think he was a candidate -- until he wasn't anymore, if that makes sense.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> And I'm confused about the timeline of Jack and Kate compared to Lapedis and Sun. It seemed like Jack and Kate may have been in Dharmaville for a month or two, while Sun and Frank only on the Island a day or two while Jack and Kate were traveling in time.


You're overthinking it. Jack and Kate went back in time while aboard Ajira. Sun and Lapidus did not. Jack and Kate simply returned, along with Sawyer and company, to a time that was only a few days later than when they first came from and when Sun and Lapidus never left. It's irrelevant how much time Jack and Kate spent in the past. If they had spent ten years in the past, they would have found Sun and Lapidus three days older, and Sun and Lapidus would have said "jeez, you guys look ten years older." (this assumes, of course, that Jack and Kate still age like the rest of us in spite of having been touched by Jacob).


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

scheckeNYK said:


> Really tired so this is probably off-base, but...
> 
> any chance MiB is Jacob's favored candidate? And now MiB is basically trying to orchestrate it so he isn't committed to staying there for years on end. I know they have been set up as foils, just trying to see some alternative outcomes.


I posted this scenario a few pages back. A girl I work with told it to me.


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## wouldworker (Sep 7, 2004)

What an odd casting choice to have Ben's father played by an actor (Jon Gries) who is younger than Michael Emerson. They didn't even try to make him look older. Is that supposed to be meaningful or is it just bad casting?


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

wouldworker said:


> What an odd casting choice to have Ben's father played by an actor (Jon Gries) who is younger than Michael Emerson. They didn't even try to make him look older. Is that supposed to be meaningful or is it just bad casting?


I thought he looked older.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

wouldworker said:


> What an odd casting choice to have Ben's father played by an actor (Jon Gries) who is younger than Michael Emerson. They didn't even try to make him look older. Is that supposed to be meaningful or is it just bad casting?


Remember that he was originally cast to play young Ben's father, which he was likely the appropriate age to play.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wouldworker said:


> What an odd casting choice to have Ben's father played by an actor (Jon Gries) who is younger than Michael Emerson. They didn't even try to make him look older. Is that supposed to be meaningful or is it just bad casting?


And his mother is played by his wife.

Ah, time travel!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'll just watch the series until the end and then let all you smart people tell me what really happened.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

3D said:


> Remember that he was originally cast to play young Ben's father, which he was likely the appropriate age to play.


Yes. He was the only choice. When we first met Ben's father, Ben was about 11 years old, IIRC, and his father was 30-something.

Same actor made up to look elderly (and I thought they did a fairly good job with the "old age" makeup, myself) makes the most sense.


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## eMarkM (Apr 28, 2003)

I'm definitely in the camp of Richard-as-Prisoner, not slave or captured slaver. That fits much better given that the ship is in the area of Australia and Richard doesn't fit into the ethnicity of slaves of that time.

Wikipedia entry on Penal transportation. The Black Rock also fits the profile of a prison ship of that period. So yeah, Richard is likely only centuries old, not millennia. Jacob made the ship come to the island and it was then Richard was "touched".

Lostpedia mentions the Black Rock as being on a mission to Thailand in 1845 ("The Constant"), but that may have just been the ostensible mission and the ledger reveals other clues (that would be interesting to Widmore, who bought it, and Hanso who had it before). This would be within the time period for British run Australian penal colonies. The part about it being a slave ship does not appear to be canon.

Also, dynamite wasn't invented until 1866, so some inconsistency there.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wouldworker said:


> What an odd casting choice to have Ben's father played by an actor (Jon Gries) who is younger than Michael Emerson. They didn't even try to make him look older. Is that supposed to be meaningful or is it just bad casting?


I thought they did a great job making him look older. It took me several seconds to be sure it was the same actor who had previously played his father.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

philw1776 said:


> Branch point (assuming even that such is a valid concept) preceeds the nuke by many years.
> Q.E.D.


That's the problem. Can we really think of it as a whole timeline that branched off when some event happened? 2 reasons why I don't think so. One is that the Losties traveled way further back in time than 1977 and influenced stuff. Jin influenced the Danielle episode--maybe without him being there they got off the island safely. Faraday told them what to do with the nuke in the 50's, I think. Did they ever bury it without his input? And if I'm remembering right Locke basically told Richard that he would be leader in the future and caused him to go visit Locke as a boy among other things.

Second, we have Jacob who seems to be able to see along the time line. He may have decided to change his behavior when he realized that 815 wasn't going to crash. But then, do we really think that Desmond pushing or not pushing the button was the only thing that caused the plane to crash? After seeing the Lighthouse, you have to think Jacob could have gotten them there somehow if he wanted to. For some reason in the sideways world he didn't want to.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I thought they did a great job making him look older. It took me several seconds to be sure it was the same actor who had previously played his father.


Me too. But as soon as he said "that damn Dharma Initiative," I knew it was Uncle Rico.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> That's the problem. Can we really think of it as a whole timeline that branched off when some event happened? 2 reasons why I don't think so. One is that the Losties traveled way further back in time than 1977 and influenced stuff. Jin influenced the Danielle episode--maybe without him being there they got off the island safely. Faraday told them what to do with the nuke in the 50's, I think. Did they ever bury it without his input? And if I'm remembering right Locke basically told Richard that he would be leader in the future and caused him to go visit Locke as a boy among other things.
> 
> Second, we have Jacob who seems to be able to see along the time line. He may have decided to change his behavior when he realized that 815 wasn't going to crash. But then, do we really think that Desmond pushing or not pushing the button was the only thing that caused the plane to crash? After seeing the Lighthouse, you have to think Jacob could have gotten them there somehow if he wanted to. For some reason in the sideways world he didn't want to.


Danielle came to the island after '77. Around 1990, judging by her daughter's age, and the fact that she left the repeating message and it had been going for 17 years. Judging by this week's episode, I think we're to assume she never went to the island (since it was most likely underwater).

Agreed about the fact that they did travel back further than '77. But in those episodes where they were hopping around, they seemed to be causing events we know already happened in their timeline. There didn't seem to be enough "energy" in what was happening to cause irrevocable damage to the timeline. The nuke combined with the island energy was able to change things enough to branch out the second timeline. Or split into a different timeline.

One thing I'm not well versed enough in time travel to know is that once a new reality is created, does it have a past all of it's own? Or is it still "connected" to the previous reality at the 1977 detonation point (or whatever point it came into existence). I suppose whatever works for the story.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

eMarkM said:


> I'm definitely in the camp of Richard-as-Prisoner, not slave or captured slaver. That fits much better given that the ship is in the area of Australia and Richard doesn't fit into the ethnicity of slaves of that time.
> 
> Wikipedia entry on Penal transportation. The Black Rock also fits the profile of a prison ship of that period. So yeah, Richard is likely only centuries old, not millennia. Jacob made the ship come to the island and it was then Richard was "touched".


One thing I'm not seeing conjectured is that just because Richard came to the island on the Black Rock when it became stranded on the island, it doesn't mean that's he's not older then that, maybe one of his missions for Jacob could have been to bring the Black Rock to the island. After all, you needed special directions to get to the island, and Richard would have gotten them from Jacob before he left.

But then there's also the scene last season where we see what is ostensibly the Black Rock sailing to the island with Jacob and the MiB on the shore, it was implied in that scene that it's a repeating cycle, so that ship was not the first time they had "guests" on the island.

Diane


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

aindik said:


> Me too. But as soon as he said "that damn Dharma Initiative," I knew it was Uncle Rico.


I thought it was Broots.


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## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> And I'm confused about the timeline of Jack and Kate compared to Lapedis and Sun. It seemed like Jack and Kate may have been in Dharmaville for a month or two, while Sun and Frank only on the Island a day or two while Jack and Kate were traveling in time.





3D said:


> You're overthinking it. Jack and Kate went back in time while aboard Ajira. Sun and Lapidus did not. Jack and Kate simply returned, along with Sawyer and company, to a time that was only a few days later than when they first came from and when Sun and Lapidus never left. It's irrelevant how much time Jack and Kate spent in the past. If they had spent ten years in the past, they would have found Sun and Lapidus three days older, and Sun and Lapidus would have said "jeez, you guys look ten years older." (this assumes, of course, that Jack and Kate still age like the rest of us in spite of having been touched by Jacob).


I actually agree with Philosofy here - it seems odd to do it with them not proceeding at the same pace. It seemed like when the Oceanic 6 left, they proceeded at the same pace as Sawyer, Juliette etc - it seemed about 3 years passed for both groups (except one was in 1974 and one was in 2004). Then the Oceanic 6 returns to the island in two groups (one 1977 and one 2007) - why would they show different time paces for the two groups?

While is seems a lot more time happened in the 1977 timeline, I'm not sure it really was a longer number of days - basically Jack and group spend a day or two getting settled in the Dharma initiative, Sayid gets captured and is sent to camp, and then all Hell starts to break loose. Whole thing would probably be less than 2 weeks. I guess the 2007 group could have been there about that long before the detonation occured and the 77 group joined them.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

vman:

I agree with you that about three years seemed to pass for both Sawyer's group and Jack's group before Jack's group joined them in 1977. I just don't think it means that it always needs to be that way. Without knowing why the time traveling is occurring, it's impossible to say for sure.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I think he was a candidate -- until he wasn't anymore, if that makes sense.


This is Lost. That makes perfect sense.


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## eMarkM (Apr 28, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> One thing I'm not seeing conjectured is that just because Richard came to the island on the Black Rock when it became stranded on the island, it doesn't mean that's he's not older then that, maybe one of his missions for Jacob could have been to bring the Black Rock to the island.
> 
> .....
> 
> Diane


I suppose, but at some point we have to apply Occam's Razor, even to Lost plot lines. Especially with only a handful of hours left. They're pretty much telegraphing that he originally came to the island on that ship before he was "touched". In what capacity he was on that ship remains the mystery.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> That's essentially what I said, without pointing out explicitly that his ethnicity made it unlikely.





eMarkM said:


> I'm definitely in the camp of Richard-as-Prisoner, not slave or captured slaver. That fits much better given that the ship is in the area of Australia and Richard doesn't fit into the ethnicity of slaves of that time.
> 
> Wikipedia entry on Penal transportation. The Black Rock also fits the profile of a prison ship of that period. So yeah, Richard is likely only centuries old, not millennia. Jacob made the ship come to the island and it was then Richard was "touched".


i don't understand why there's so much debate about what Richard was on the Black Rock. He was in shackles. that means he was either a slave or prisoner transport. What's it matter?

And as far as his ethnicity, ummmm, back in those days, European slaves were not just black. They were white, hispanic, whatever. Slavery in the US was based on race, slavery in Europe was more a socio-economic basis. People were enslaved due to their caste, debt, or whatever non-aristocratic standing their birth had. You could often buy your debt off and become free.

I think people are waaay overanalyzing it. He was in shackles as some sort of slave or prisoner. They've been pretty clear about that.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

How do we know the ship is called the Black Rock? Does it say "Black Rock" somewhere on it? If so, then it is a ship from an English speaking country. That would tend to narrow it down a bit as to both time and place.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> How do we know the ship is called the Black Rock? Does it say "Black Rock" somewhere on it? If so, then it is a ship from an English speaking country. That would tend to narrow it down a bit as to both time and place.


Yes, I'm pretty sure the first time they came upon it, we saw the words "Black Rock" painted on the stern. I remember it being a huge surprise that it was a ship, when we had all assumed it was referring to a geographic feature.

Edit:










It says "Black Rock Portsmouth"


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Alex mentioned her mother, but not her father. I wonder if he died in this timeline also, even though they never went to the island. I wonder if people who died in the other timeline will die in this one too, but with different causes.





DevdogAZ said:


> What would be really interesting is if we find out that Alex's father was killed by Alex's mother (Danielle) in some kind of self-defense justified killing.





Peter000 said:


> Danielle came to the island after '77. Around 1990, judging by her daughter's age, and the fact that she left the repeating message and it had been going for 17 years. Judging by this week's episode, I think we're to assume she never went to the island (since it was most likely underwater).


Just an FYI-Danielle and her team came to the island in 1988 confirmed in the episode where we see Jin being found by them.

In addition to what happened to Alex's father,.. I'm curious how, why, and when Danielle came to LA? Probably one of those questions that won't be answered.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> My wife has the LOST Supper as her desktop wallpaper and we were talking this morning in the computer room. I happened to look at the wallpaper again and I couldn't help notice if this show wasn't giving us big honkin' clues on who would end up on what team. It's even more evident after last night.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


where is this picture from???? never seen it before. and it's interesting in that it looks like Locke is in Jesus's seat. But all this story line with Jacob is seemingly that Jacob is a parallel of God/Jesus (the touch of Jacob being a gift among other things).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

milo99 said:


> where is this picture from???? never seen it before. and it's interesting in that it looks like Locke is in Jesus's seat. But all this story line with Jacob is seemingly that Jacob is a parallel of God/Jesus (the touch of Jacob being a gift among other things).


The picture was released by ABC as a promo shortly before this season began airing.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

eMarkM said:


> Wikipedia entry on Penal transportation. The Black Rock also fits the profile of a prison ship of that period. So yeah, Richard is likely only centuries old, not millennia. Jacob made the ship come to the island and it was then Richard was "touched".
> 
> Lostpedia mentions the Black Rock as being on a mission to Thailand in 1845 ("The Constant"), but that may have just been the ostensible mission and the ledger reveals other clues (that would be interesting to Widmore, who bought it, and Hanso who had it before). This would be within the time period for British run Australian penal colonies. The part about it being a slave ship does not appear to be canon.
> 
> Also, dynamite wasn't invented until 1866, so some inconsistency there.


Just to put a few dates on the events being discussed...

"Nobel obtained patents for his invention[Dynamite]: in England on 7 May 1867 and in Sweden on 19 October 1867."

Maybe it was around longer than that before it was patented? Seems like a quite a goof.

And i've mentioned this on another thread episode... but the scene between MiB and Jacob on the beach, according to the enhanced episode, ... "This scene takes place on the island over 140 years before the present day."

So from 2007, that scene took place in 1867. 
If that was in fact the Black Rock in the distance... it's only said to be an "early 1800s wooden sailing ship."

I'm in the camp that hoped Richard was a lot older.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

milo99 said:


> where is this picture from???? never seen it before. and it's interesting in that it looks like Locke is in Jesus's seat. But all this story line with Jacob is seemingly that Jacob is a parallel of God/Jesus (the touch of Jacob being a gift among other things).





DevdogAZ said:


> The picture was released by ABC as a promo shortly before this season began airing.


Incidentally, there are two versions. There's that one:










then there's this one:










Some people are in the same places, some are not.

Greg


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## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

aindik said:


> How do we know the ship is called the Black Rock? Does it say "Black Rock" somewhere on it? If so, then it is a ship from an English speaking country. That would tend to narrow it down a bit as to both time and place.


At the auction where Widmore obtained the diary they said specifically the ship set sail from Portsmouth, England in 1845.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, I'm pretty sure the first time they came upon it, we saw the words "Black Rock" painted on the stern. I remember it being a huge surprise that it was a ship, when we had all assumed it was referring to a geographic feature.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...


I think in this episode they simply re-used the same establishing shot of the Black Rock (the ship) that they used the first time we saw it in season 1. (I could be wrong, but the long establishing shot looked awfully similar.)

In any case, the name "Black Rock" is clearly visible on its stern.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

vman said:


> I actually agree with Philosofy here - it seems odd to do it with them not proceeding at the same pace. It seemed like when the Oceanic 6 left, they proceeded at the same pace as Sawyer, Juliette etc - it seemed about 3 years passed for both groups (except one was in 1974 and one was in 2004). Then the Oceanic 6 returns to the island in two groups (one 1977 and one 2007) - why would they show different time paces for the two groups?
> 
> While is seems a lot more time happened in the 1977 timeline, I'm not sure it really was a longer number of days - basically Jack and group spend a day or two getting settled in the Dharma initiative, Sayid gets captured and is sent to camp, and then all Hell starts to break loose. Whole thing would probably be less than 2 weeks. I guess the 2007 group could have been there about that long before the detonation occured and the 77 group joined them.





3D said:


> vman:
> 
> I agree with you that about three years seemed to pass for both Sawyer's group and Jack's group before Jack's group joined them in 1977. I just don't think it means that it always needs to be that way. Without knowing why the time traveling is occurring, it's impossible to say for sure.


I believe that it's most likely that they've all spent the same amount of time alive.. The 3 year to 3 year similarity between the DharmaPast guys and the O6 seems all too convenient.. My guess (again) is that it's the _island_ that's been moving around in time, and the people are just hitching a ride on it (and they're physically moving with the island, so they don't drown when it moves). I think they're all aging relatively the same because time is moving forward, and whether they're aging on the island or off of it, they're aging the same way. I think it's significant that they didn't happen to get off of the island in the 70s and stick around until now and just be older than others.. Yeah, time is screwed up around the island (we saw the doctor's corpse arrive on shore before he was killed), but at least story telling wise, they're showing them all around the same age, and I take that as more than just not wanting to apply more makeup to certain actors than others (yet, anyway).


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

gchance said:


> Incidentally, there are two versions. There's that one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While some of them have switched places, only Miles and Claire have switched sides ...


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## myyours (Aug 28, 2007)

Then, of course there's this one!


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> While some of them have switched places, only Miles and Claire have switched sides ...


i don't think the sides have any meaning. Iliana or whatever her name is, is on the same side as Sayid and sawyer. Obviously, no way in hell is she going that path.

i still think Locke being in the middle is hte most interesting part. Maybe we are being misled and Jacob really isn't "good". I mean, why would he have kept Richard in the dark alllllll this time?? Why did he never explain anything to him either?? wtf is that all about? maybe it really IS a curse and not a gift to be touched by him.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> I believe that it's most likely that they've all spent the same amount of time alive.. The 3 year to 3 year similarity between the DharmaPast guys and the O6 seems all too convenient.. My guess (again) is that it's the _island_ that's been moving around in time, and the people are just hitching a ride on it (and they're physically moving with the island, so they don't drown when it moves). I think they're all aging relatively the same because time is moving forward, and whether they're aging on the island or off of it, they're aging the same way. I think it's significant that they didn't happen to get off of the island in the 70s and stick around until now and just be older than others.. Yeah, time is screwed up around the island (we saw the doctor's corpse arrive on shore before he was killed), but at least story telling wise, they're showing them all around the same age, and I take that as more than just not wanting to apply more makeup to certain actors than others (yet, anyway).


But if it's the island moving through time, why didn't Sun, Lapidus, Ben, or all of the other Ajira passengers also move through time?


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> That is how I took it. Note, however, that doesn't necessarily mean he was a slave - he could well have been a slaver and/or one of the Black Rock's crew.


When Widmore was bidding on the Black Rock item, I wonder if they mentioned the captain's name. If so, was it Ricardus?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

3D said:


> But if it's the island moving through time, why didn't Sun, Lapidus, Ben, or all of the other Ajira passengers also move through time?


Not sure, I think something (Jacob? Smokey?) was selectively picking some of them "off the record" and letting them stay in place so they'd skip around.. and maybe he knocked the wheel off kilter too (not just Ben doing it).


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Not sure, I think something (Jacob? Smokey?) was selectively picking some of them "off the record" and letting them stay in place so they'd skip around.. and maybe he knocked the wheel off kilter too (not just Ben doing it).


I see your point but, like I originally said, we haven't been given enough information to say for sure either way. The original comment that I responded to made it seem as if there was a glaring inconsistency if it turned out that Jack and Kate spent more days in 1977 than Sun and Lapidus had in 2007 island time. The issue might be moot if they all had in fact spent the same amount of time and have been aging at the same rate. All I was saying is that if they hadn't, it wasn't inconsistent based on what we've seen. If your theory about the way the time travel works is correct then yes, it would be inconsistent. Of course, if the number of days did not match up, then it would undermine your theory in any event. Have I gone in enough circles yet?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

3D said:


> I see your point but, like I originally said, we haven't been given enough information to say for sure either way. The original comment that I responded to made it seem as if there was a glaring inconsistency if it turned out that Jack and Kate spent more days in 1977 than Sun and Lapidus had in 2007 island time. The issue might be moot if they all had in fact spent the same amount of time and have been aging at the same rate. All I was saying is that if they hadn't, it wasn't inconsistent based on what we've seen. If your theory about the way the time travel works is correct then yes, it would be inconsistent. Of course, if the number of days did not match up, then it would undermine your theory in any event. Have I gone in enough circles yet?


I think you may have been misreading or misinterpreting the comment you're talking about, because I don't think anyone has said that there is a glaring inconsistency if Jack and Kate spent more days in 1977 than Sun and Ben spent in 2007. I think people were just wondering and speculating what the time difference was, whether it was 2 days for Sun and 2 days for Jack, or whether it was 2 days for Sun and 2 weeks for Jack. Regardless of which it is, I don't think there's any "glaring inconsistency."


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

CuriousMark said:


> When Widmore was bidding on the Black Rock item, I wonder if they mentioned the captain's name. If so, was it Ricardus?


I like this. Ricardus was the Captain. During the trip, he veered off-course of the original destination. He began to take the Black Rock on a bearing of 315 degrees (or whatever Jacob tells him to do to get to the island.) The rest of the crew starts to question him about what the hell he's doing. Eventually, they realize he's lost his mind and there's a mutiny. The old captain is locked up with the slaves. The rest of the crew tries to get back home, but end up getting in a storm and getting ship-wrecked on the island.

I believe this to be 100% accurate, assuming we don't find out anything more about what brought Ricardus to the island.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

3D said:


> But if it's the island moving through time, why didn't Sun, Lapidus, Ben, or all of the other Ajira passengers also move through time?


Nothing was moving through time after the Ajira flight crashed, until the nuke. Everyone was "in place" between those events.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

CuriousMark said:


> When Widmore was bidding on the Black Rock item, I wonder if they mentioned the captain's name. If so, was it Ricardus?





jradford said:


> I like this. Ricardus was the Captain.


According to Lostpedia here, the captain wasn't named, but the most likely person would be Magnus Hanso.

Greg


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

gchance said:


> According to Lostpedia here, the captain wasn't named, but the most likely person would be Magnus Hanso.


Oh my god, "Magnus Hanso" is an anagram of "Ricardus is a slave."

Oh wait a minute, no it's not. It's an anagram of "Gosh, Man Anus." Now what do you suppose Abrams was thinking with that?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> That's the problem. Can we really think of it as a whole timeline that branched off when some event happened? 2 reasons why I don't think so. One is that the Losties traveled way further back in time than 1977 and influenced stuff. Jin influenced the Danielle episode--maybe without him being there they got off the island safely. Faraday told them what to do with the nuke in the 50's, I think. Did they ever bury it without his input? And if I'm remembering right Locke basically told Richard that he would be leader in the future and caused him to go visit Locke as a boy among other things.


The Others did not bury the nuke without Faraday's input because simply Faraday was ALWAYS there in the 50s to tell them to bury it. And so on with Locke telling Richard, etc.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

As to the Last Supper picture, Battlestar Galactica did a similar promo shot which conveyed nothing. Then again, that was Mr Moore who did everything for effect, devoid of substance. My take is that the LOST picture(s) conveys nothing. Done by the same Yahoos that do the promos which we know are misleading at best. Untill the LOST producers indicate the pic has actual intended info, I regard it as pure art, nothing else. Not that I don't enjoy it. I do.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Of course, there are actually three "Lost Supper" pics to spend hours analyzing: Look at Locke, Look at the Camera, and Look Around.

I generally agree that there are no answers in the pictures, but wouldn't say they're meaningless. For instance, I think the fact that one picture has Jin next to Sun and another has her away from him is meant to invoke the "will they be reunited or not" question of this season. And Locke in the middle is no accident either - he's in the middle of everything this season.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok.. We were talking about wondering what game the whole show might relate to. We were also talking about what event might have caused everything to start. I thought the following while driving home tonight (pieced together from pieces I'd previously thought). I just typed it up now.

I think that at the very least, we can see where Smokey's convoluted plan started. I think the start is as clear as day. I think it because of the cheese wheel at the beginning of Mouse Trap, and the dome at the end. (John Locke talked about the board game Mouse Trap in one of his flashbacks).

Here we go:

1 Christian (smokey) tells Locke to move the island, to get John to leave the island
2 Locke tells Ben they're supposed to move the island
3 Ben tells Locke that it's actually supposed to be Ben that moves the island.
4 The Oceanic Six (not called that yet) headed out to the freighter, with Sawyer. Sawyer already felt drawn back to the island so he jumped out. Eventually everyone else in the helicopter was drawn back to the island too, since the freighter exploded, and they flew back towards the island.
5 Ben turns the big frozen donkey wheel. The wheel looks like the "cheese wheel" at the beginning of Mouse Trap. Turning the cheese wheel in Mouse Trap starts a Rube Goldberg chain reaction that eventually ends up with a man being trapped underneath a geodesic dome - unless something goes wrong, then it's the next person's turn. Eventually someone's turn of the cheese wheel results in the man being trapped under the dome.
6 The island disappears (all because of smokey's initial request), preventing the O6 from getting back to the island (even though they were drawn back). If Locke had turned the wheel instead of Ben, Locke and the O6 would now be off of the island, but instead the O6 and Ben are off the island.
7 Ben shows up in Tunesia.
8 Smokey had wanted Locke off of the island so that when he eventually returned he could impersonate Locke, knowing that Locke would have access to Jacob. Instead, Locke's reason for leaving the island was now gone. So smokey dislodges the wheel, and starts bouncing Locke around in time. (Note: Actually, maybe smokey wanted Ben to leave first, which you'll see in step #14 below when you get to it).
9 Locke eventually flashes to 2007 in the woods, where FakeLocke (who has already been successful through step #16 below in 2007, as evidenced by the fact that he's FakeLocke and not Christian) tells Richard to tell Locke that he now has another reason to turn the frozen donkey wheel - he needs to get off island and go get back the Oceanic Six. FakeLocke also tells Richard to give Locke a compass that he already remembers receiving from Locke in 1950, so that when he gets to 1950 he'll listen to Locke (the idea of a compass must be somehow significant to Richard before Locke arrives in 1950).
10 Locke flashes back to 1950 and meets Richard. He gets Richard's attention as someone that potentially might be special, by saying something like "I'm going to be your leader.. you told me so" and giving Richard the compass that he will eventually give back to Locke.
11 Locke eventually goes back to the Orchid station where the wheel is, except the station doesn't exist yet. Instead there's a well, which he goes down, then flashes again.
12 Christian (smokey) is there, but he doesn't physically touch Locke so maybe he's there, maybe he isn't, but either way he guides Locke to the wheel and tells him to fix then turn it. Wanting to ensure that people eventually do come back to the island (with Locke's body), he tells Locke to "say hello to my son for me", one thing that Jack might listen to that might make him actually believe he needed to return to the island.
13 Locke arrives in Tunesia. Widmore (aligned with smokey) is essentially there (behind a camera) and helps Locke try to recruit people, leading Locke to get more and more depressed.
14 Locke talks to everyone, and can't convince anyone to go back with him (except Jack at the last minute, but Locke didn't know that). Locke goes to commit suicide, which the island probably wouldn't have allowed him to do if he'd actually carried through on his attempt (just like Michael and Jack couldn't commit suicide, even off island). However, Ben was off island! Someone else can kill him, just not Locke. So Ben comes by, gathers info he needs, and kills Locke. Why does he kill Locke? Because he's jealous of Locke. Why is he jealous of Locke? Because Locke heard someone in the cabin, but Ben never had. But that someone in the cabin was smokey, who had done that just to get Ben jealous! Ben kills Locke.
15 Ben and Jack get everyone to come back to the island, including Locke's body, on flight 316.
16 Smokey appears as FakeLocke, which people believe since many of them knew that they'd specifically brought John Locke's dead body back to the island in the plane with them.
17 FakeLocke tells Richard and Ben to come with him into the jungle at night. In the jungle, FakeLocke tells Richard to tell Locke that he now has another reason to turn the frozen donkey wheel - he needs to get off island and go get back the Oceanic Six. FakeLocke also tells Richard to give Locke a compass that he already remembers receiving from Locke in 1950, so that when he gets to 1950 he'll listen to Locke (the idea of a compass must be somehow significant to Richard before Locke arrives in 1950). (This is the same event as #9 above).
18 FakeLocke proceeds with Richard and Ben to the foot statue, where FakeLocke uses Richard's prior knowledge of Locke to convince him to not only let him go in to see Jacob, but also to let him bring in Ben.
19 Ben kills Jacob, accomplishing what Smokey had intended from step #1.

However along with Locke bouncing around, other people bounced around too. Faraday and Jack both eventually ended up together before the drill hit the pocket at the Swan station drilling location. They both were responsible for rushing into the area with an H bomb (Faraday's idea, Jack's execution), irregardless of whether the bomb went off. That rush was referred to by Dr. Chang in the Swan orientation video as The Incident.

That incident resulted in them not only finishing the construction of the Swan station, but putting in place a protocol where people had to stay in that station and enter a code every 108 minutes, essentially trapping them. They were trapped by the computer, which sat underneath a big, geodesic dome.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Isn't Sayid in Judas' spot in all those "Lost Supper" shots?


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## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

mostman said:


> Isn't Sayid in Judas' spot in all those "Lost Supper" shots?


That's the way I saw it.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

My wife also commented on the fact that the board for Mouse Trap has a bunch of move forward x spaces and move backward x spaces areas (similar to the flashes).

At the end of the board game, once you get in towards the end, you loop around and around in a circle until someone traps someone under the dome and wins. It doesn't feel like we've seen a loop yet, unless the sideways line is actually time looping around for another iteration of 2004-2007..


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

..realized another bit.. 

After you turn the cheese wheel to set all of the events in motion, one of them causes a boot to.. wait for it... KICK THE BUCKET. (and one of the key requirements of Smokey's complicated plan was that Locke die)



Now mind you I'm not saying anything as banal as that his plan is literally the game Mouse Trap or anything.. I'm just saying that if the writers were about to come up with a very complicated chain of events that Smokey would have to carefully carry out (maybe so they could later show the effects of not doing all of those events ala flash sideways), then what better well known Rube Goldberg machine to make references to (as a hint) than the iconic game Mouse Trap? AND, they even SHOWED LOCKE DESCRIBING IT to some kid in a flashback.


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## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> ..realized another bit..
> 
> After you turn the cheese wheel to set all of the events in motion, one of them causes a boot to.. wait for it... KICK THE BUCKET. (and one of the key requirements of Smokey's complicated plan was that Locke die)
> 
> ...


I'm picking up what youre putting down!


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think you may have been misreading or misinterpreting the comment you're talking about, because I don't think anyone has said that there is a glaring inconsistency if Jack and Kate spent more days in 1977 than Sun and Ben spent in 2007. I think people were just wondering and speculating what the time difference was, whether it was 2 days for Sun and 2 days for Jack, or whether it was 2 days for Sun and 2 weeks for Jack. Regardless of which it is, I don't think there's any "glaring inconsistency."


Maybe "glaring inconsistency" was a poor choice of words. Philosfy's original post, however, expressed confusion over his perception that Jack and Kate had been in 1977 for what he thought was two or three months, while Sun and Lapidus had seemingly only experienced a few days. My point was that there is no need for confusion (at least any more so than the confusion inherent in watching this show) as, based on what we've been told, there might very well be no reason that, from the time of the Ajira crash, Jack and Kate couldn't have lived more days in 1977 than Sun and Lapidus did in 2007.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> ..realized another bit..
> 
> After you turn the cheese wheel to set all of the events in motion, one of them causes a boot to.. wait for it... KICK THE BUCKET. (and one of the key requirements of Smokey's complicated plan was that Locke die)
> 
> ...


I think, they went back in time and changed the game Mouse Trap to look like the plan....


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Here's a tangent..

I was thinking about the loop at the end of mouse trap where you can't get out for a while, and that made me think about the looping compass (I'm not saying anything about this being tied to mouse trap, that's just how I thought of what I'm about to say).

Once on this forum when we talked about the compass that has no origin (Richard got it from RealLocke in 1950, who gave it to RealLocke in 2007, who went back to 1950 and gave it to Richard, etc), someone asked something like "why doesn't it just rust so much that it disintigrates?

Well they did make a point of saying that it was "rusty, but still tells North"..

Maybe it's a timing mechanism? Maybe smokey wants Richard fooled in 1950 by the compass (so he can have his loophole and finally see what it's like to kill Jacob), but he doesn't want that timeline forever.. So he introduces the watch in some different way that we never saw, it stiches together this closed loop, and maybe the loop works like 3-4 times or so. By that point the compass is 200 years old, it gets do rusty that it breaks apart, and Locke is no longer able to convince Richard in 1950 that he's anyone special. Richard never visits him as a kid, Richard never thinks of Locke as special, Richard never gives anyone access to kill Jacob.

It'd let smokey create a timeline (where Richard trusts Locke, which we just saw) that only exists for a few iterations, then self corrects by the rusted/busted compass breaking and allowing the original timeline to return. Maybe the sideways flashes are that original timeline?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

In the original Last Supper, Judas is the only one with his elbow on the table, holding the money bag in his hand. While Sayid is the 4th from the left (Judas' spot) I believe Claire is a much closer match in position and posture. Sayid actually reminds me more of Peter.

But, of course, these are all just promo shots to make us look for clues that do not exist.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

wprager said:


> But, of course, these are all just promo shots to make us look for clues that do not exist.


But this IS what we do! We search for clues EVERYWHERE.


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Mouse Trap? Seems more like Jumanji if you ask me


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Listening to the official podcasts that came out this week, I heard two interesting bits of news. I'm still listening to the longer of the podcasts, so there could be more....

About Richard:


Spoiler



Nestor Carbonell was interviewed at some convention and said that episode nine of this season deals with his character. And that he was quite satisfied with the answers given by the end of that episode.



About the Dharma food drops:


Spoiler



Darlton claim that they *will* explain the food drops but that it might not be on the show. Interesting, because I thought they'd stated that once the finale ends they're done and will not be talking about the show any more. Maybe some other media is planned (book? game?) before the show ends....


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, that's correct. Ilana and Richard appear to be on the "evil" side, assuming the people in the picture are placed on sides at all.
> 
> I think it was something about the way he said he hadn't been back since he first left as he was looking at the shackles, as well as UnLocke's line earlier in the season about seeing him out of the shackles, that was supposed to clue us in to the fact that he came to the Island as a prisoner aboard that ship. (Sorry for the smeek. I typed that a while ago and then got a couple phone calls and never hit submit).
> 
> However, I doubt it was a slave ship. My guess is it was a prisoner ship transporting prisoners to Australia.





philw1776 said:


> As to the Last Supper picture, Battlestar Galactica did a similar promo shot which conveyed nothing. Then again, that was Mr Moore who did everything for effect, devoid of substance. My take is that the LOST picture(s) conveys nothing. Done by the same Yahoos that do the promos which we know are misleading at best. Untill the LOST producers indicate the pic has actual intended info, I regard it as pure art, nothing else. Not that I don't enjoy it. I do.


If we went with the possibility that Jacob and MiB are "one and the same" (which I can't flesh out well yet, then you could look at the last Supper Picture this way......all the folks on the left are likely to pick up guns and fight in the coming war (against Widmore?) And those on the right have more peaceful tendencies. Perhaps JacobFlocke just has needed to take different forms in order to determine who can actually fight against Widmore and who he doesn't mind if they die in action and then protect those that are candidates to protect the Island......


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> It'd let smokey create a timeline (where Richard trusts Locke, which we just saw) that only exists for a few iterations, then self corrects by the rusted/busted compass breaking and allowing the original timeline to return. Maybe the sideways flashes are that original timeline?


Of course, he really needs to only work once....


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> Listening to the official podcasts that came out this week, I heard two interesting bits of news. I'm still listening to the longer of the podcasts, so there could be more....


Another good one to listen to that I've mentioned before is Geronimo Jack's Beard that Jorge Garcia does. It's not official, but it's interesting with some of the behind the scenes things he talks about. What I really like is he does the bulk of it just after the episode's been filmed, then comes BACK after it airs and talks about differences between the script and how it's broadcast.

This week he had Michael Emerson on (his first guest), and some of the insight was fascinating. He talked about how in the scripts over the years, it's given direction like, "Ben delivers his line with the most honesty he's ever had", which he does, only to find out three or four scripts later than he's been a snively little liar, and after this happening so many times it's hard to act it out when he expects it to be a lie.

Check it out, it's very good.

Greg


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok convince me again - make a pitch that I should listen.  I finally started trying to listen to the first episode of the Geronimo Jack podcast (601/602) and at 3:53 I actually paused it, because it was starting off slow enough that it was almost painful to listen to (I shouldn't know more than an actor on the show that they jumped to 2007 in the flash after Juliette hit the bomb). I've got the headphones on - it won't take much to convince me to keep listening, just tell me that it's worth it..


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Ok convince me again - make a pitch that I should listen.  I finally started trying to listen to the first episode of the Geronimo Jack podcast (601/602) and at 3:53 I actually paused it, because it was starting off slow enough that it was almost painful to listen to (I shouldn't know more than an actor on the show that they jumped to 2007 in the flash after Juliette hit the bomb). I've got the headphones on - it won't take much to convince me to keep listening, just tell me that it's worth it..


The first episode they (Jorge specifically) don't seem to have quite the energy level that they have in subsequent episodes. Not that they're jumping through the microphones at any time, I think that's just Jorge's way... maybe you just get used to it. For me, it's interesting to hear the tidbits you get here and there of behind the scenes stuff, thoughts on the acting process, and to be honest it's kind of cool to hear that the actors don't know any more than we do (and are just as curious as to what's going on as we are!)

It's also very interesting to hear how incredibly detailed the scripts obviously are, and how close the final product usually ends up being to what was on the written page.

I do think it's worth sticking with. The episodes get better as they go. But to each his own.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jking said:


> For me, it's interesting to hear the tidbits you get here and there of behind the scenes stuff, thoughts on the acting process, and to be honest it's kind of cool to hear that the actors don't know any more than we do (and are just as curious as to what's going on as we are!)


Except for Sonya Walger. I read an interview with her where she stated she just reads the pages she needs to learn and really isn't interested in the "mysteries of the show".


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Except for Sonya Walger. I read an interview with her where she stated she just reads the pages she needs to learn and really isn't interested in the "mysteries of the show".


To be fair though she really hasn't played a big part in the show....so i can see her not really caring.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Ok convince me again - make a pitch that I should listen.  I finally started trying to listen to the first episode of the Geronimo Jack podcast (601/602) and at 3:53 I actually paused it, because it was starting off slow enough that it was almost painful to listen to (I shouldn't know more than an actor on the show that they jumped to 2007 in the flash after Juliette hit the bomb). I've got the headphones on - it won't take much to convince me to keep listening, just tell me that it's worth it..





jking said:


> The first episode they (Jorge specifically) don't seem to have quite the energy level that they have in subsequent episodes.


I think it amounts to just like any podcast just getting started, they're just starting to hit their stride. This week's with Emerson was fabulous, although I will admit what made it good was the fact that he's there.

Jorge's the first to admit he doesn't know much more than fans, coupled by the fact that for his own contractual protection they aren't releasing the podcasts until the episodes air, even though they recorded it months ago. It's like listening to a fan podcast, only this guy's actually on the show. 

I like the neat behind the scenes stuff. For instance, one thing Jorge mentioned is that the vampires line was an ad-lib. What was funny there is we were all laughing about how great it was, then the next day he was talking about it on the podcast. I just thought that was neat.

Another thing they joked about was the fact that Ben is always greeting people. "Hello, Jack." "Hello, Hugo." "Hello, James." And Jack finally getting the opportunity to cry. 

Greg


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

philw1776 said:


> The Others did not bury the nuke without Faraday's input because simply Faraday was ALWAYS there in the 50s to tell them to bury it. And so on with Locke telling Richard, etc.


But in the timeline where the plane never crashed, and the island is on the bottom of the ocean, we don't even know if Faraday was born. He certainly didn't go to the island in 2004 when it was wasn't there, so how could he have gone back in time? Same with Locke who was living in LA with Helen. Each person has his own timeline. (a rule I just made up) 



jkeegan said:


> Ok convince me again - make a pitch that I should listen.


Same here. The first one went soooo slow. Maybe I'll try this last one. I do love Hurley and the way he talks, but way too much filler.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Except for Sonya Walger. I read an interview with her where she stated she just reads the pages she needs to learn and really isn't interested in the "mysteries of the show".


Easy for her to say. All she has to do is _*FlashForward*_ and know the outcome.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Me, I just hope the LOSTies end up in a universe where Hurley gets to write the _*Star Wars *_movies instead of the excerable George Lucas.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Here's a tangent..
> 
> I was thinking about the loop at the end of mouse trap where you can't get out for a while, and that made me think about the looping compass (I'm not saying anything about this being tied to mouse trap, that's just how I thought of what I'm about to say).
> 
> ...


<raises hand> But it's _Jacob_ who decided people are special and brings them to the Island. Richard doesn't do anything without being told to do so.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

wprager said:


> <raises hand> But it's _Jacob_ who decided people are special and brings them to the Island. Richard doesn't do anything without being told to do so.


Richard visited Locke as a kid 3 times off island because Locke told him to in 1950, and Richard believed him enough to trust him entirely because:
1) Locke disappeared in front of him
2) Locke said that Richard himself told Locke that he'd be the leader
3) Locke gave him that compass

Jacob had nothing to do with any of that. I'm saying that if one of those conditions - having been given the compass by Locke - didn't happen, then maybe Richard wouldn't have trusted Locke the same way he did.

Reread what I said - maybe part of it wasn't clear. I wasn't saying Jacob said Locke was special or anything like that.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> Easy for her to say. All she has to do is _*FlashForward*_ and know the outcome.


Heh, I did read that interview before FlashForward aired but I suspect she has the same attitude about that show too.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Ok.. We were talking about wondering what game the whole show might relate to. We were also talking about what event might have caused everything to start. I thought the following while driving home tonight (pieced together from pieces I'd previously thought). I just typed it up now.
> 
> I think that at the very least, we can see where Smokey's convoluted plan started. I think the start is as clear as day. I think it because of the cheese wheel at the beginning of Mouse Trap, and the dome at the end. (John Locke talked about the board game Mouse Trap in one of his flashbacks).
> 
> Here we go:......<snip>





jkeegan said:


> My wife also commented on the fact that the board for Mouse Trap has a bunch of move forward x spaces and move backward x spaces areas (similar to the flashes)....<snip>





jkeegan said:


> ..realized another bit..
> ...<snip>





jkeegan said:


> Here's a tangent..
> ...<snip>


that's one long commute...

very well thought out, and makes sense....


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> Me, I just hope the LOSTies end up in a universe where Hurley gets to write the _*Star Wars *_movies instead of the excerable George Lucas.


:up:


----------



## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

hapdrastic said:


> About the Dharma food drops:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Personally, I think...

(and this isn't a spoiler, but since I'm referencing something that was in spoiler tags, I will use them for my reply)



Spoiler



They are holding out for a good deal, but they'll do some other media (books/videos). If they say now that they will NOT do anything, that puts them in a better bargaining position down the road.


----------



## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

jlb said:


> If we went with the possibility that Jacob and MiB are "one and the same" (which I can't flesh out well yet, then you could look at the last Supper Picture this way......all the folks on the left are likely to pick up guns and fight in the coming war (against Widmore?) And those on the right have more peaceful tendencies. Perhaps JacobFlocke just has needed to take different forms in order to determine who can actually fight against Widmore and who he doesn't mind if they die in action and then protect those that are candidates to protect the Island......


I'm leaning towards them being the same person after Dogen talks about the scale being balanced within a person. Earlier, in the cave with Sawyer, MIB threw the white stone and said it was an "inside" joke.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Except for Sonya Walger. I read an interview with her where she stated she just reads the pages she needs to learn and really isn't interested in the "mysteries of the show".


Sonya needs to listen to Jorge and Sidekick22 on Geronmio Jack's Beard every now and then.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So first Ben aka Henry Gale was Locke's prisoner in the hatch. Then he was Locke's prisoner in his house in Dharmaville. And there too he was tied up and then all of a sudden Sawyer sees him walking cheerfully across the yard and inviting them to dinner, just like he ended up going from digging his own grave to being back in the fold with Ilana. You gotta love Ben. We're all assuming his contrition is sincere.....

This week's Hurley blog is really good with Emerson as his guest. Lots of insight into the process of filming. He mentioned that when Hurley is trying to figure out Richard and he asks if he's time traveling or a cyborg, Jorge threw in the word "vampire" on his own and they left it in. 

Ilana says that Jacob is like a father to her. It looks like he spent way more time with her, I'm assuming off island, than he did with anyone else. I always pictured him being limited to quick visits.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Ilana says that Jacob is like a father to her. It looks like he spent way more time with her, I'm assuming off island, than he did with anyone else. I always pictured him being limited to quick visits.


A guy can only go for so long until he is compelled to "touch" someone.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Richard visited Locke as a kid 3 times off island because Locke told him to in 1950, and Richard believed him enough to trust him entirely because:
> 1) Locke disappeared in front of him
> 2) Locke said that Richard himself told Locke that he'd be the leader
> 3) Locke gave him that compass


I'm thinking that the compass CAUSED the loophole for MiB to become unLocke, as it's origin defies time.



jkeegan said:


> Reread what I said - maybe part of it wasn't clear. I wasn't saying Jacob said Locke was special or anything like that.


It would be easier to read that long post if it had spaces between paragraphs. It's easier to digest volumes of info when they are broken down into smaller chunks (paragraphs), as you had done in this post which I referenced.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

I'm just surprised that Richard knew what a cyborg was considering his age. UnLocke didn't even know the book "Of Mice and Men," saying it was before his time. That bothered me a bit.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tewcewl said:


> I'm just surprised that Richard knew what a cyborg was considering his age. UnLocke didn't even know the book "Of Mice and Men," saying it was before his time. That bothered me a bit.


Richard has spent time off the island over the decades. I'm not so sure MiB has...it seems like he's stranded on the island.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

tewcewl said:


> I'm just surprised that Richard knew what a cyborg was considering his age. UnLocke didn't even know the book "Of Mice and Men," saying it was before his time. That bothered me a bit.


I vaguely remember this conversation between Sawyer and MiB. Are those his exact words? Because if he did say that that book was "before his time" then doesn't that mean he's either pretty young (unlikely, given that we've seen him at the Black Rock arrival), or from the future?

Ooooh....


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

tewcewl said:


> I'm just surprised that Richard knew what a cyborg was considering his age. UnLocke didn't even know the book "Of Mice and Men," saying it was before his time. That bothered me a bit.





hapdrastic said:


> I vaguely remember this conversation between Sawyer and MiB. Are those his exact words? Because if he did say that that book was "before his time" then doesn't that mean he's either pretty young (unlikely, given that we've seen him at the Black Rock arrival), or from the future?
> 
> Ooooh....


He actually said the book was AFTER his time.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> I'm just surprised that Richard knew what a cyborg was considering his age. UnLocke didn't even know the book "Of Mice and Men," saying it was before his time. That bothered me a bit.


He doesn't need to know what it is to know he's not one, or to know that Hurley's just bugging the crap out of him and he just wants him to shut up. 

Greg


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

gchance said:


> He doesn't need to know what it is to know he's not one, or to know that Hurley's just bugging the crap out of him and he just wants him to shut up.
> 
> Greg


Actually, he does need to know. If he doesn't know the definition of a cyborg, for all he knows it might mean "dude who has been given a gift by another dude and has lived for an extremely long time and can't kill himself."


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

jking said:


> He actually said the book was AFTER his time.


Awwww....


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I'll just watch the series until the end and then let all you smart people tell me what really happened.


I feel this way sometimes too. It's hard to really try hard when you know there are people over in Lostpedia and here and in other places who can outdo anything you can do. (Though, this season, I'm still clinging to being the first at least in this forum to fully expostulate the "flashsideways is a flashforward" theory that a lot of people are coming to... even if someone posted a fragment of it a page or two before me  )

No one's commented much about the fact that it was Locke who nudged Dr. Linus onto his Machiavellian scheme in the flashsideways. (Circumstance certainly also helped, but it was Locke who planted the seed.)


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

jking said:


> He actually said the book was AFTER his time.


Yes, you're right. That's what I meant to say. I'll leave my post unedited so people don't get confused by the subsequent posts.

It's Monday...



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Richard has spent time off the island over the decades. I'm not so sure MiB has...it seems like he's stranded on the island.


That thought did occur to me after I posted originally. The latest was probably when Richard got Juliet to come to the island. Do we know approximately when that was?


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> ... when Richard got Juliet to come to the island. Do we know approximately when that was?


I seem to recall Juliet telling someone (Jack?) that she had been there for 3 years. And that would have been from the 2004 (original) timeline, so she would have arrived in 2001.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Quick thought..

So we heard Eloise explain to Desmond that the universe has a way of course correcting, and that she didn't bother warning the guy with red shoes to avoid getting killed by the scaffolding because if he did, tomorrow he'd just (fake examples - can't remember real ones) slip in the bathtub, and if she saved him from that, he'd be hit by a taxi, etc.

Well a few posts ago someone referenced Richard recruiting Juliette for Mittelos laboratories.. That had me remembering the scene where he asked her if there was anything they could do to recruit her, she joked something like "have my husband hit by a bus", then her husband was hit by a bus.

Before I'd thought that they'd just had someone get in a bus and drive it into the guy, killing him.

What if, instead, Jacob just made it happen, somehow.. He willed circumstances or nudged people or whatever, to make circumstances such that he was hit by a bus.

..and what if that is the whole "universe course corrects itself" thing - it's not the universe course correcting, it's JACOB doing all of the correcting, one thing at a time.. (Sam Becket, putting right what once went wrong, comes to mind).

Maybe the same deliberate hand caused the bus to hit him, caused a car to hit Nadia, caused a car to crash behind Jack when he was about to commit suicide, etc. Maybe it's not the universe, it's a consciousness.. Jacob, the island, etc.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Maybe the same deliberate hand caused the bus to hit him, caused a car to hit Nadia, *caused a car to crash behind Jack when he was about to commit suicide*, etc. Maybe it's not the universe, it's a consciousness.. Jacob, the island, etc.


I don't know about the rest of it, but after Richard's talk last week about Jacob's gift and his not being able to kill himself, I figured at the very least this was the case with the Jack incident you mention above. Whether or not those who have been touched by Jacob also have the same gift of eternal life that Richard has (or a different gift, or each their own unique gift), I think they at least are unable to take their own life, and that's why Jack was interrupted when he was trying to kill himself. One might argue that's why Locke was interrupted when he was trying to hang himself too. Of course Ben ended up finishing the job for him, but the fact remains that the universe (or Jacob, etc) may have intervened when he was trying to off himself. Even Michael was apparently granted temporary "you can't kill yourself" status until whatever job he was needed for was completed.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Good points.

Indisposed after a vicious attack by urologists. Just re-watched the episode. Great scene of Jack in the Black Rock and Linus' Emmy Award speech. Great acting. Love this show.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

getreal said:


> I'm thinking that the compass CAUSED the loophole for MiB to become unLocke, as it's origin defies time.


...that sounds pretty good. I am sold!


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

tewcewl said:


> I'm just surprised that Richard knew what a cyborg was considering his age. UnLocke didn't even know the book "Of Mice and Men," saying it was before his time. That bothered me a bit.


Richard has been off the island a number of times. Maybe he caught a movie.

Didn't unLocke end up quoting "Of Mice and Men" afterwards?

Don't let things bother you! It is only a tv show. Granted, the best tv show ever*

*possibly


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Well a few posts ago someone referenced Richard recruiting Juliette for Mittelos laboratories.. That had me remembering the scene where he asked her if there was anything they could do to recruit her, she joked something like "have my husband hit by a bus", then her husband was hit by a bus.
> 
> Before I'd thought that they'd just had someone get in a bus and drive it into the guy, killing him.
> 
> ...


Or maybe Jacob is just the world's worst driver. He is older than modern transportation, so he never took the driver's test. 



mmilton80 said:


> Didn't unLocke end up quoting "Of Mice and Men" afterwards?


No, that was Sawyer doing the recap of the story before threatening to shoot unLocke in the back of the head, just before seeing the names on the walls of the grotto.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

< 5 hours.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I keep going back to the candidates and what was said waaaaaay at the begininning of the show. It was said that in the end of all the people on the beach there would only be a handful that survived. And Season one got rid of quite a few of them. 

Anyway, maybe to be a candidate you must not have ever taken someones life? And that was why some were touched early. Locke killed Naomi, Sawyers killed but has also not killed, Kates obviously killed before, Sun killed Colleen, Sayid is nearly world famous for murder, and Hurley inadvetantly killed Nikki and Paolo. He definitely didn't intend to, but they *were* alive til him and Sawyer buried them. I am not sure if that counts or not.

Which leaves Jack and Jin. Have either of them killed? Jin was close a few times, but not only did he avoid killing two guys for Suns father, he was also the one who missed shooting the dynamite at the beach during the ambush. If I am forgetting something someone please let me know.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> < 5 hours.


And the cool thing is, since Lost started up my Tuesday Night TV Buddy has been swamped in work (layoffs mean fewer people doing the same work), so more often than not he can't make it, which means I get to watch Lost (almost) live! And he just called to cancel for tonight! Yee haw!

I mean, what a bummer, he has to work overtime, I'm crushed, crushed I say.

Crushed.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

betts4 said:


> I keep going back to the candidates and what was said waaaaaay at the begininning of the show. It was said that in the end of all the people on the beach there would only be a handful that survived. And Season one got rid of quite a few of them.
> 
> Anyway, maybe to be a candidate you must not have ever taken someones life? And that was why some were touched early. Locke killed Naomi, Sawyers killed but has also not killed, Kates obviously killed before, Sun killed Colleen, Sayid is nearly world famous for murder, and Hurley inadvetantly killed Nikki and Paolo. He definitely didn't intend to, but they *were* alive til him and Sawyer buried them. I am not sure if that counts or not.
> 
> Which leaves Jack and Jin. Have either of them killed? Jin was close a few times, but not only did he avoid killing two guys for Suns father, he was also the one who missed shooting the dynamite at the beach during the ambush. If I am forgetting something someone please let me know.


Didn't Jack allow Shannon's dad to die while saving his (future) wife on the operating table? He didn't exactly kill, but he certainly was responsible for the death.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TriBruin said:


> Didn't Jack allow Shannon's dad to die while saving his (future) wife on the operating table? He didn't exactly kill, but he certainly was responsible for the death.


No, he wasn't. Not even a little.

He could only save one. At least one was going to die whatever he did. Thanks to him, one lived.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Good thing he got Linus stitched back up again after deliberately cutting him in a way that he'd die without Jack's procedure, eh?

I like the reminder that Jin missed when shooting at the dynamite.  Ji Yon(sp?) probaby hasn't killed anyone yet either though..


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

They had the episode re-shown this week with the pop-up commentary. I was hoping on some exposition about the past when Richard was looking at the interior of the Black Rock, especially when he examined the shackles. Nothing there! DRAT!



Spoiler



Yes, I know, that next weeks episode is about Richard, and they are probably saving the explanation for then, but I was hoping, and of course, I didn't know until the end of THIS weeks episode, what next weeks episode was going to be.


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## TysonBrady7 (Mar 17, 2010)

I never really got into LOST. Perhaps I need to record a few eps and give it another go.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

TysonBrady7 said:


> I never really got into LOST. Perhaps I need to record a few eps and give it another go.


Don't start NOW.  You'll be confused as all get out. I'd start from the beginning.


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## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Seeing Ben as a teacher with a vest on totally reminded me of the picture that Miles held up of Ben when he was showing the losties who they (freighter folk) were looking for. I know its not the same exactly but they are similar.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> Don't start NOW.  You'll be confused as all get out. I'd start from the beginning.


So you can be confused as all get out anyway, but in a *good* way.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Not relevant to this particular episode, but of interest to Lost fans. All of Apostles of Faraday should have this shirt! (And the Apostates of Faraday, tough noogies on you!)


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> Not relevant to this particular episode, but of interest to Lost fans. All of Apostles of Faraday should have this shirt! (And the Apostates of Faraday, tough noogies on you!)


Ordered!


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