# Tivo if you are listening. Offer users GUI downgrade to old UI while preserving all shows/data



## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

Ok Tivo. If you read these forums you can hear the disdain for the new user interface. I share this dislike for what the new interface has done to the Tivo experience. There were ways to add many of the new streaming and app features without abandoning the core interface that made Tivo loved by many. 

The current path to downgrade a new or existing tivo is unacceptable. This should be a menu driven item on the interface to downgrade to Tivo "Classic" and also preserve ALL recordings, season passes, data, settings, etc.

Currently, I have many copy protected recordings that I cannot transfer to another tivo. Worse, I can't even transfer to another tivo without it failing mid transfer so my only recourse now is downgrading and losing all my saved tv shows and movies. Not really an acceptable option.

If you want Tivo to survive for years to come consider my suggestion. As a former user interface designer and programmer I simply cannot believe what you have done with the new interface as well as not giving users the option to revert easily and properly to the legacy (better) interface.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Are we up to 10 threads like this yet? XenForo should have an award, just as they do for likes.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Marcv-
Tivo will NEVER do this, they want and are herding everyone to new interface. The new interface is obviously for cable box users

Tivo has full disregard for their user base, and obviously have made the decision to go to new interface, damn to original features tivo users loved and be gone with the old interfaces.

Removing the thumbs in te4 is a final hit at old usage. They are on the remote! The use is so much better than their auto suggestions, but their are threads about that.


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

philhu said:


> Marcv-
> Tivo will NEVER do this, they want and are herding everyone to new interface. The new interface is obviously for cable box users
> 
> Tivo has full disregard for their user base, and obviously have made the decision to go to new interface, damn to original features tivo users loved and be gone with the old interfaces.
> ...


Very poor business decision. Time to short Tivo stock.

If Tivo stays on this path there is no advantage to using Tivo anymore. Might as well just use X1 from Comcast. Comcast charges about same for cable card as a full X1 box.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I think it would be technically difficult, but obviously not impossible to do...

Originally, they didn't have any regression path at all - what we have is something they seemed to hack together for us.


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

bradleys said:


> I think it would be technically difficult, but obviously not impossible to do...
> 
> Originally, they didn't have any regression path at all - what we have is something they seemed to hack together for us.


As a former programmer, I believe just as they allowed the migration from original to new which was a certain process they could certainly do the reverse whereas they provide either a downgrade or "upgrade" path to the classic interface. We think of things as having to revert back or downgrade but depending on the code that could be the path of least resistance or possibly a major "upgrade" path to install (revert) to the classic. Without knowing their code it is not possible for me to determine which path is easier but technically either is possible.

The hack is apparent in that when you upgrade to the new interface your shows are saved but "downgrading" they are not.

As a consumer, this just isn't an acceptable solution at least for me and apparently many others. Ultimately people vote with their dollars and for the first time I'm bringing in an X1 box to try it out. The way I look at it is that it can't be any worse than the new Tivo interface. Whoever they hired for the GUI should be fired and a completely new, competent team hired. If they were smart they would hire the original design team to bring back the original interface and then add on the new features mostly outside the classic interface (apps, streaming, etc)

I've seen so many software products just blow it like this for the sake of change and progress. You need both of those but it is far too easy to do it wrong and change the secret sauce that made you great. So keep updating and improving but do it right.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

marcv said:


> Very poor business decision.


Just because you don't like how TiVo is changing their products, doesn't mean that it is a poor business decision.

It may be, but your opinion doesn't have any bearing on it.


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

pfiagra said:


> Just because you don't like how TiVo is changing their products, doesn't mean that it is a poor business decision.
> 
> It may be, but your opinion doesn't have any bearing on it.


Seems to be having some bearing...

I present the 3 year stock chart of Tivo, Inc


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

marcv said:


> Seems to be having some bearing...
> 
> I present the 3 year stock chart of Tivo, Inc
> 
> View attachment 41355


You misunderstand what I wrote if you think that backs up your point.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

marcv said:


> Very poor business decision.





marcv said:


> I present the 3 year stock chart of Tivo, Inc


I think the much more logical conclusion is their "problem" revolves around not "dumping" the old ways long ago and moving to a more modern/sleek platform which would be better embraced by mainstream consumers and easily ported to popular devices.


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## Willy92 (Oct 12, 2018)

You can't downgrade your phone or tablet UI once you have
upgraded, can you?

I've been a Tivo user since '99, and yes, it's been up/down, good/not so good. It's like anything else that they won't leave the same. It still suits my needs just fine.

What's the big deal?


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

Willy92 said:


> You can't downgrade your phone or tablet UI once you have
> upgraded, can you?
> 
> I've been a Tivo user since '99, and yes, it's been up/down, good/not so good. It's like anything else that they won't leave the same. It still suits my needs just fine.
> ...


To each their own. Don't have to see by all the threads over the last year how generally disliked the new interface is.

Like you I have been a LONG time Tivo user. Have the Tivo ONE. Every single model after that. Own more units currently than 95% of tivo owners out there I'm sure.

Yes I did not argue above to leave everything the same but if you are going to add features and functionality it isn't necessary to destroy the user interface.

Your phone/tablet. Go back and look at the original iphone and android phones. Same exact interface. Apps arranged on a screen. Swiping. Pinching. Imagine a complete overhaul where they changed your interface to a scrolling text list of applications? The main theme of phone/tablet UI has not changed since Jobs announced the iPhone. There have been improvements but the overall GUI concept has remained the same. Exhibit A below


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Yes. This is my exact point

They have destroyed the interface and removed features 
Go to example of their docs and suggestion

It says for te3 and series 3. Do following...

Doesnt even really explain they pulled it out of te4


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

All you current Tivo interface fans. Here is one use case example of many of a completely meaningless set of steps to delete shows.

Let's say you have a folder with 20 shows and you want to delete 18 of these. In the old interface you simply hit the CLEAR button on each one. So say I wanted to kill the oldest 18 I would select the 3rd show down from the top and hit clear 18 times in a row. Done in 15 seconds.

Today's new and improved user interface takes minutes. Select the show. Hit clear. Hit the confirmation that I do want to delete it. Wait. Then do same on next one. 

It's faster for me to connect to my upgraded Tivo from my other old Tivo using the original interface and just click to clear each one without the confirmation and wait. 

So 15 seconds versus at least 2 to 3 minutes for a trivial task.

As a GUI programmer I would have user setting to either disable "confirm deletions" option or have checkboxes next to each show so you can multi-select and then mass delete. Perhaps an ABCD button to enter the multi-select mode. 

I won't even get into the guide or other things as they have been blasted ad nauseum in these forums since the new software came out.

The only feature at this point that really puts Tivo above X1 from what I can tell is commercial skip but X1 has a Labs mode that seems to implement a form of this so that advantage may soon be gone too.


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## Willy92 (Oct 12, 2018)

Maybe I'm not such a hardcore user, like you, but my wife uses it most of the time and does complain about it, but, she always did. She never reads instructions, she just pushes buttons. I don't have a problem with it, I just do what it takes. We're not teckies, either, we're closer to 70 than 60.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

marcv said:


> Here is one use case example of many of a completely meaningless set of steps to delete shows.


It is meaningless as I have used the new interface since the day it was released and never have had a reason to do such.  If I did I would probably simply delete the folder and restore the two I wanted to keep.


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## yesno (Jun 27, 2003)

It looks to me that Tivo is making the TE4 UI to work with Roku, Fire TV, ect, so the remotes have less buttons.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

marcv said:


> The only feature at this point that really puts Tivo above X1 from what I can tell is commercial skip but X1 has a Labs mode that seems to implement a form of this so that advantage may soon be gone too.


Wow. No way. X1 is a mess. No multiple buffers. No wishlists. Clumsy interface. Argue about the interface all you want but don't make things up.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

yesno said:


> It looks to me that Tivo is making the TE4 UI to work with Roku, Fire TV, ect, so the remotes have less buttons.


That's funny since the buttons in TE4 are actually more granular rather than less. Look at the whining (yes, whining) about the back button versus the left button.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Yes, I wish that a user could sidegrade from TE4 to TE3 without a loss of shows. Having said that, I'm also appreciative that TiVo allows this sidegrading at all.


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## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

marcv said:


> Ok Tivo. If you read these forums you can hear the disdain for the new user interface. I share this dislike for what the new interface has done to the Tivo experience. There were ways to add many of the new streaming and app features without abandoning the core interface that made Tivo loved by many.
> 
> The current path to downgrade a new or existing tivo is unacceptable. This should be a menu driven item on the interface to downgrade to Tivo "Classic" and also preserve ALL recordings, season passes, data, settings, etc.
> 
> ...


How did you end up on Hydra? Did you upgrade before knowing if downgrading was possible? Did you buy a new Tivo and not downgrade before recording lots of new shows?


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

The original classic interface was SD! And yes, folks complained when the HD version rolled out too (partly due to the lack of speed and unfinished nature).


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Tivo has a TE3 emulator. (cough) They could fairly easily make that a backdoor code option and you wouldn't be able to tell you were on the TE4 file system.

But they won't.  Their history is loaded with examples of releasing half-baked stuff, pushing forward, and taking the bruises. The HDUI itself took 2 years to be respectably usable, and 7 years to finish.

The poll asks for a preference, and I guess I would pick TE3. Hydra is finally "fine" with the spring update, but it's never been *as enjoyable.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Where’s the vote option for “I don’t care”?

It’s a list of tv shows that I can page thru. I press Play on one and it starts playing. I can pause or FF. When I’m done, I delete the show. Then I can play another one.

I can view a guide to record shows and view a list of what will record in the next week.

That’s what I want. I can still do that efficiently and reliably and better than any cable co DVR offers.

I really do not understand the hatred of Hydra which is basically a file navigation/media player UI.


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

marcv said:


> To each their own. Don't have to see by all the threads over the last year how generally disliked the new interface is.
> 
> Like you I have been a LONG time Tivo user. Have the Tivo ONE. Every single model after that. Own more units currently than 95% of tivo owners out there I'm sure.
> 
> ...


Ahh you have not been keeping up with the changes to iPhone UI. The icons have moved on to folders with in folders and there are new UI this year too. 
The old TIVO UI is soo long in the tooth something had to be done. 
With the move to streaming recording of programs has not been a growth field at all. Many people are cutting cable an. This will increase in the next two years. With Disney+ and all the other streaming apps coming out this year.


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## ingsoc747 (Apr 5, 2017)

cwoody222 said:


> Where's the vote option for "I don't care"?
> 
> It's a list of tv shows that I can page thru. I press Play on one and it starts playing. I can pause or FF. When I'm done, I delete the show. Then I can play another one.
> 
> ...


Personally I have yet to try it. Reading other comments it seems like there's a bunch of complaints, from inconsistent UI, to navigation changes from every other Tivo OS, to the incompatibility of third party apps (such as streambaby), to the complete uselessness of tivo suggestions.

I hate to say it, but I think that tivo is a dead man walking, so to speak. Their luster has dulled in the face of better hardware offerings from every cable company. The main gripes of slow boxes and terrible interfaces is mostly gone. Everyone has mobile apps now, and every content producer has their own streaming service which will probably never be available as a tivo app.

Finally, I would assume that there is some sort of major backend change when upgrading from 3 to 4 which makes downgrading and keeping shows impossible, such as a one way database upgrade. Only a tivo engineer can speak to this though.


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

spiderpumpkin said:


> How did you end up on Hydra? Did you upgrade before knowing if downgrading was possible? Did you buy a new Tivo and not downgrade before recording lots of new shows?


My TiVo was not new. Had it for years. Six tuner. Lots of shows and movies on it. When I updated it had no idea the entire UI was changed from ground up. For years all spring and fall updates had improvements and features but never a wholesale dumping of the UI.

So when I got the notice I could update I did it. Immediately regretted it but figured let me give it six months and see if it grows on me. Usually it takes time to adapt to new interfaces. Anyway, It didn't grow on me. I know how to use it but compared to my many other TiVo's here it's a drag


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## bbrown9 (Mar 12, 2011)

I've been reluctant to upgrade precisely because I can't go back without losing shows if I find it cumbersome to use. It sounds like the UI has had a few changes since the initial rollout - it might be more to my liking than the first version of it - I'll have to look at some more recent screenshots. 

I prefer the grid guide, so that isn't a blocker for me. If they got rid of the grid, it would be.

I've also been holding out for the clock (I hear that's working now?) and being able to copy shows to/from a PC (sounds like this will never happen).

If I use kmttg to copy shows to my PC, there is no way to play them back without going through something like Plex. Is that right?

Why "upgrade" if I will lose functionality?


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

marcv said:


> All you current Tivo interface fans. Here is one use case example of many of a completely meaningless set of steps to delete shows.
> 
> Let's say you have a folder with 20 shows and you want to delete 18 of these. In the old interface you simply hit the CLEAR button on each one. So say I wanted to kill the oldest 18 I would select the 3rd show down from the top and hit clear 18 times in a row. Done in 15 seconds.
> 
> ...


Maybe if you actually used TE4 instead of complaining about it you'd know that you're wrong. I just deleted 18 episodes of The Good Place using just the clear button all the way down.

TE4 was released in Oct 2017 and it's now July 2019!


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

CloudAtlas said:


> Maybe if you actually used TE4 instead of complaining about it you'd know that you're wrong. I just deleted 18 episodes of The Good Place using just the clear button all the way down.
> 
> TE4 was released in Oct 2017 and it's now July 2019!
> View attachment 41359


Mine has the latest software from Tivo on it. Here is what mine does.

Go into folder with shows
Select item you want to delete. 
Click clear button
Confirmation pops up "do you want to delete..."
Click OK button now to confirm
Wait while processing about 3 to 10 seconds
Repeat for next one on the list.

There is no world where my Tivo with the latest version does what you describe. All my legacy Tivo's do though. The only way I can hack by it to get that behavior is using one of my older tivo's and go to the updated tivo from Devices and then delete from the old Tivo remotely.

Perhaps my Tivo model does not have same functionality as yours on latest software version. My bedroom is a six tuner Roamio from late 2013.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

marcv said:


> Mine has the latest software from Tivo on it. Here is what mine does.


Since you're posting here you've obviously read all the *21.9.1.v3 - 21.9.1.v11 *threads and know that the latest software version is *21.9.1.v11, *right? And *maybe* it would have been a good idea to wait until you have the latest version before complaining?

I deleted the shows on a Roamio Pro Running *21.9.1.v9 *so I assume you are on the older 21.8.3 release.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

bbrown9 said:


> If I use kmttg to copy shows to my PC, there is no way to play them back without going through something like Plex. Is that right?
> 
> Why "upgrade" if I will lose functionality?


Simply FYI, pyTivo Desktop/pyTivo will allow you to transfer shows back to your sidegraded TE3 TiVo box (as well as allow transfers from a TE3 or TE4 box to your PC). But it just take time (just like the downloading to your PC takes time).


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

CloudAtlas said:


> Since you're posting here you've obviously read all the *21.9.1.v3 - 21.9.1.v11 *threads and know that the latest software version is *21.9.1.v11, *right? And *maybe* it would have been a good idea to wait until you have the latest version before complaining?
> 
> I deleted the shows on a Roamio Pro Running *21.9.1.v9 *so I assume you are on the older 21.8.3 release.


YUP!!! You are correct! 21.8.3!

How do I force update to latest?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I voted for the old one, only because I haven't experienced the new one, except for playing with it for a few minutes at the weekend party a few years ago...

I (and others) said this a long time ago -- I would give the new UI a *good* run through, for a week or two at least, IF I could go back without losing my shows.. Since I can't, I will stick with the old UI as long as I can..
(Plus, the new UI navigation seemed weird.)


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

CloudAtlas said:


> Maybe if you actually used TE4 instead of complaining about it you'd know that you're wrong. I just deleted 18 episodes of The Good Place using just the clear button all the way down.
> 
> TE4 was released in Oct 2017 and it's now July 2019!
> View attachment 41359


Pressing clear works for me also


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I wonder if deleting everything is really required, or if it's just used as a deterrent to force people to acclimate to the new UI. if you could easily just switch they might see more people flop back to the old UI out of familiarity and never give the new one a chance. By making you pay a price they make it so you really have to want to switch back to be willing to lose everything.


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

CloudAtlas said:


> Since you're posting here you've obviously read all the *21.9.1.v3 - 21.9.1.v11 *threads and know that the latest software version is *21.9.1.v11, *right? And *maybe* it would have been a good idea to wait until you have the latest version before complaining?
> 
> I deleted the shows on a Roamio Pro Running *21.9.1.v9 *so I assume you are on the older 21.8.3 release.


Ok spoke too soon. The use case I described was a little off. Deleting inside a folder works fine. It's the following behavior that is the deleting issue.

I record 10 consecutive shows on same channel each day. CNBC. Each show has different name. Tivo puts these in a folder now so to delete all of them each night to clear up the play list I have to do the actions I described originally. Click each one. Confirm delete. Wait for interface to come back. Next. Ten times.

This is due to tivo putting each single show in a folder. I could go into each folder and hit clear but that again is another step so to clear them all out takes a couple minutes. On old interface 15 seconds.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

CloudAtlas said:


> Since you're posting here you've obviously read all the *21.9.1.v3 - 21.9.1.v11 *threads and know that the latest software version is *21.9.1.v11, *right? And *maybe* it would have been a good idea to wait until you have the latest version before complaining?
> 
> I deleted the shows on a Roamio Pro Running *21.9.1.v9 *so I assume you are on the older 21.8.3 release.


Yeah! He should wait until the next fall update before complaining. How dare anyone complain about The TiVo! All Hail The TiVo!


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> Yeah! He should wait until the next fall update before complaining. How dare anyone complain about The TiVo! All Hail The TiVo!


Nope..read my post just above yours. My original description of the delete issue was not explained properly. Above it is and I'm sure you all can confirm this properly described behavior


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

marcv said:


> Nope..read my post just above yours. My original description of the delete issue was not explained properly. Above it is and I'm sure you all can confirm this properly described behavior


My comment was about folks who go into an obvious complaint thread and then chastise someone for complaining.  Why do they care? We all vent from time to time and it's easy to scroll by a thread that's not going to interest us.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

I was very much upset by the loss of capability in the new UI when it first came out and was VERY vocal about it. Time passed, tivo kept updating, things got fixed and the plex interface improved....

I switched, and after an appropriate adjustment period like it well enough not to go back.

I do however, still hope Tivo fixes or improves some of the still remaining problems and better integrates plex libraries into the UI. If not, when the Amazon Fire or AndroidTV app for tivo finally comes out, the center of our digital universe may no longer be Tivo. Tivo could be relegated to capturing the local news and the few other broadcast items we still get only that way and feeding them to AFTV or AndroidTV devices.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

marcv said:


> As a former programmer, I believe just as they allowed the migration from original to new which was a certain process they could certainly do the reverse whereas they provide either a downgrade or "upgrade" path to the classic interface. We think of things as having to revert back or downgrade but depending on the code that could be the path of least resistance or possibly a major "upgrade" path to install (revert) to the classic. Without knowing their code it is not possible for me to determine which path is easier but technically either is possible.
> 
> The hack is apparent in that when you upgrade to the new interface your shows are saved but "downgrading" they are not.
> 
> ...


As a CURRENT software product manager I can tell you that no major software application offers an automated reversion to a prior release. I manage a corporate level software product that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, with 25% of the purchase price every year for support and maintenance, and we only provide upgrade paths, and have done so for over 20 years. If a user wants to revert to an earlier version they better have a backup of their database, since there is no way to undo the changes we make to the tables and data. Tivo is no different. This is standard practice in the software business. If you want to revert, your upgraded data won't be accessible...you need a backup of the old information. Most of what makes a DVR work is not the recording of video, but the metadata that is stored (name, description, runtime, source, etc.) and that is different in every release.

Why not call for downgrades of TE3 to an earlier build every time a bug appears? 

By now there have been hundreds of posts complaining about TE4. Despite that, the user community here is about 50/50 on the subject. According to TiVo, the uptake of TE4 in the general user base is much larger.


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

Diana Collins said:


> As a CURRENT software product manager I can tell you that no major software application offers an automated reversion to a prior release. I manage a corporate level software product that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, with 25% of the purchase price every year for support and maintenance, and we only provide upgrade paths, and have done so for over 20 years. If a user wants to revert to an earlier version they better have a backup of their database, since there is no way to undo the changes we make to the tables and data. Tivo is no different. This is standard practice in the software business. If you want to revert, your upgraded data won't be accessible...you need a backup of the old information. Most of what makes a DVR work is not the recording of video, but the metadata that is stored (name, description, runtime, source, etc.) and that is different in every release.
> 
> Why not call for downgrades of TE3 to an earlier build every time a bug appears?
> 
> By now there have been hundreds of posts complaining about TE4. Despite that, the user community here is about 50/50 on the subject. According to TiVo, the uptake of TE4 in the general user base is much larger.


No offense but there are several ways to accomplish what users want here. As a software product manager you should know this. You can have alternate themes and user interfaces. Take a look at how many skins/themes/launchers exist for Android giving the UI a completely different look and interface as well. I didn't give my full list of skills and experience but have also been software product manager, UI designer and programmer. I can look at this as a project where I could use some of the legacy interfaces and adapt to what is being requested by half the community.

Tivo could use the updated database since it does not appear any data would have been eliminated in the TE4 update. You have your season passes, shows, priority, etc. If there were table changes you simply rewrite your queries for the changes. Not heavy lifting here unless of course Tivo's dev team is running very lean. So don't think of this as "reverting" but more like putting a new skin and interface option a user could select. The underlying data as you must know as a product developer is not tied to how you display it or interact with it. You surely are aware you could write 100 different front end design interfaces with just one database behind it right?

This is something as a current software product manager you should already know and rather than state all the reasons why it couldn't be done as I describe. You literally made up reasons and artificial roadblocks on why it couldn't or shouldn't. Again doesn't have to be "reversion" by any sense to accomplish the goal. I've literally built upgraded interfaces exactly like this giving users both old and new options. Remember when Gmail for a few years supported the Classic and New interfaces? That is a pretty big enterprise and offered automated reversion to prior release with clicks to go back and forth between old and new. Matter of fact Google has done this with several of their products where users can toggle between original and new interfaces at will.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I just went to three stores, none related. I paid with a debit card. Each store had new software to use since my last visit in May. It's life.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

marcv said:


> No offense but there are several ways to accomplish what users want here. As a software product manager you should know this. You can have alternate themes and user interfaces. Take a look at how many skins/themes/launchers exist for Android giving the UI a completely different look and interface as well. I didn't give my full list of skills and experience but have also been software product manager, UI designer and programmer. I can look at this as a project where I could use some of the legacy interfaces and adapt to what is being requested by half the community.
> 
> Tivo could use the updated database since it does not appear any data would have been eliminated in the TE4 update. You have your season passes, shows, priority, etc. If there were table changes you simply rewrite your queries for the changes. Not heavy lifting here unless of course Tivo's dev team is running very lean. So don't think of this as "reverting" but more like putting a new skin and interface option a user could select. The underlying data as you must know as a product developer is not tied to how you display it or interact with it. You surely are aware you could write 100 different front end design interfaces with just one database behind it right?
> 
> This is something as a current software product manager you should already know and rather than state all the reasons why it couldn't be done as I describe. You literally made up reasons and artificial roadblocks on why it couldn't or shouldn't. Again doesn't have to be "reversion" by any sense to accomplish the goal. I've literally built upgraded interfaces exactly like this giving users both old and new options. Remember when Gmail for a few years supported the Classic and New interfaces? That is a pretty big enterprise and offered automated reversion to prior release with clicks to go back and forth between old and new. Matter of fact Google has done this with several of their products where users can toggle between original and new interfaces at will.


Uh. No. This is not just a skin. This is a different system top to bottom.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

Diana Collins said:


> I manage a corporate level software product that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, with 25% of the purchase price every year for support and maintenance


Good lord, that sounds like Epicor. I remember when 10% was standard even for products like Oracle.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

FYI - pytivo does NOT work on a TE4 system. It doesnt even show in the menu does it? You also lose transfer a show between tivos. You can stream, but not move a show to another tivo.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

philhu said:


> FYI - pytivo does NOT work on a TE4 system. It doesnt even show in the menu does it? You also lose transfer a show between tivos. You can stream, but not move a show to another tivo.


pyTivo on TE4 will work for TiVo box -> PC transfers, but not the other direction.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

philhu said:


> FYI - pytivo does NOT work on a TE4 system. It doesnt even show in the menu does it? You also lose transfer a show between tivos. You can stream, but not move a show to another tivo.


You can still move shows from TiVo to TiVo using the TiVo website. But it's a lot less convenient.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

It strange how you can debate form over functionality all day and just by repeating it often enough it will start to convince people it's a debate about the same thing which its not. It therefore, can be argued that TE4 is not an upgrade at all.

And what is it with the people here who are threatened by functionality over form? 
I mean, it's not even good form, but the trashiest thumb nail look. It looks like they got it in a bankruptcy from online video CD entertainment stores. I forgot their names. There out of business.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> You can still move shows from TiVo to TiVo using the TiVo website. But it's a lot less convenient.


But you can no longer move the shows that were never flagged correctly for CP, I think all this is CYA for TiVo and certain cable companies. Its all controlled by Tivo now regardless of the flags.

Before if the cable co did not mark certain channels for CP, you could move them all you wanted, even to a PC and re-encoded to your liking.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

foghorn2 said:


> But you can no longer move the shows that were never flagged correctly for CP, I think all this is CYA for TiVo and certain cable companies. Its all controlled by Tivo now regardless of the flags.
> 
> Before if the cable co did not mark certain channels for CP, you could move them all you wanted, even to a PC and re-encoded to your liking.


Huh? TiVo can't change the flag and the flag is required to be set to something by your cable company. Maybe your cable company just changed the way it flags shows?


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

mschnebly said:


> My comment was about folks who go into an obvious complaint thread and then chastise someone for complaining.  Why do they care? We all vent from time to time and it's easy to scroll by a thread that's not going to interest us.


Ask yourself why do YOU care? I didn't chastise him for complaining I simply pointed out that what's the point of complaining about something on an old version (21.8.3) when you know a major spring software update (21.9.1) has been making the rounds for months? Just look at how many threads below about the 21.9.1 release there are and how many UI changes, new features and bug fixes there have been.

It's just a *moot point* to complain when the problem he mentioned is no longer a problem 21.9.1. It's like complaining about Apple iOS not having a dark mode when it's been announced that a major feature of iOS 13 is a dark mode!



krkaufman said:


> FYI...21.9.1.v11
> 21.9.1.v9
> 21.9.1.v8
> 21.9.1.v6
> ...


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

CloudAtlas said:


> Ask yourself why do YOU care? I didn't chastise him for complaining I simply pointed out that what's the point of complaining about something on an old version (21.8.3) when you know a major spring software update (21.9.1) has been making the rounds for months? Just look at how many threads below about the 21.9.1 release there are and how many UI changes, new features and bug fixes there have been.
> 
> It's just a *moot point* to complain when the problem he mentioned is no longer a problem 21.9.1. It's like complaining about Apple iOS not having a dark mode when it's been announced that a major feature of iOS 13 is a dark mode!


I redescribed my issue was slightly different from my original. Lmk if update fixes this or not. It's a few posts back


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> I wonder if deleting everything is really required, or if it's just used as a deterrent to force people to acclimate to the new UI. if you could easily just switch they might see more people flop back to the old UI out of familiarity and never give the new one a chance. By making you pay a price they make it so you really have to want to switch back to be willing to lose everything.


TiVO Ted has mentioned that the meta data/database schema completely changed. TE4 is NOT a simple UI update. It's a major new release meant to run on multiple platforms that was in development for years. Not sure why people can't see this.

TiVO has been cool about allowing people to stay on TE3 but the idea of TiVO spending time, money and development resources to allow some retail users the ability to roll back perfectly is not going to happen. Especially in light of the fact that ZERO of the 7+ million OEM customers would ever need to do that.

If TiVO wanted they could simply NOT allow the ability rollback and it's exactly what most companies would do. Imagine Netflix allowing you to rollback to a 2 year old version sporting a completely different UI? And having their tech support help you do that!!


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

CloudAtlas said:


> TiVO Ted has mentioned that the meta data/database schema completely changed. TE4 is NOT a simple UI update. It's a major new release meant to run on multiple platforms that was in development for years. Not sure why people can't see this.
> 
> TiVO has been cool about allowing people to stay on TE3 but the idea of TiVO spending time, money and development resources to allow some retail users the ability to roll back perfectly is not going to happen. Especially in light of the fact that ZERO of the 7+ million OEM customers would ever need to do that.
> 
> If TiVO wanted they could simply NOT allow the ability rollback and it's exactly what most companies would do. Imagine Netflix allowing you to rollback to a 2 year old version sporting a completely different UI? And having their tech support help you do that!!


Google allowed rollback for years on gmail and other services to classic versions. It's not uncommon. Database backend can handle many front end Ui and interfaces. Merrill Lynch and TD Ameritrade as well. All complex enterprise platforms. Again not hard to do. It's not a reversion or rollback. You just adapt front end to query database and output as desired. Too many non developers here opining on things they don't understand.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

marcv said:


> Too many non developers here opining on things they don't understand.


Too many here opining on how TiVo should spend their capital because "they" know the market better.


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

marcv said:


> Google allowed rollback for years on gmail and other services to classic versions


And then realized how fool-hardy that was. The last Gmail change caused lots of howling -- but the response was to suck it up, buttercup ... or find another service.


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

eherberg said:


> And then realized how fool-hardy that was. The last Gmail change caused lots of howling -- but the response was to suck it up, buttercup ... or find another service.


Don't worry, it's not you I'm trying to convince or give customer feedback to. It is Tivo executives. They can take or leave my opinions and advice as well as others. Fate will handle things accordingly. It's all good. Like I said everyone gets to vote with their wallets in the end.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Huh? TiVo can't change the flag and the flag is required to be set to something by your cable company. Maybe your cable company just changed the way it flags shows?


So basically (without divulging too much details) the local cable co does not flag CP a certain group of pay channels. With TE3 you can move the recordings to a NAS, another TE3 TiVo, a PC with Tivo Desktop. Those same recordings cant be moved from tivo to tivo at all with either TE3 or TE4 using TiVo online. Somehow TiVo online knows those programs (mainstream movies) are supposed to be flagged and the ability to transfer is not there.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

CloudAtlas said:


> Ask yourself why do YOU care? I didn't chastise him for complaining I simply pointed out that what's the point of complaining about something on an old version (21.8.3) when you know a major spring software update (21.9.1) has been making the rounds for months? Just look at how many threads below about the 21.9.1 release there are and how many UI changes, new features and bug fixes there have been.
> 
> It's just a *moot point* to complain when the problem he mentioned is no longer a problem 21.9.1. It's like complaining about Apple iOS not having a dark mode when it's been announced that a major feature of iOS 13 is a dark mode!


They why should anyone complain about anything since it might be fixed in some future update?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

marcv said:


> Google allowed rollback for years on gmail and other services to classic versions. It's not uncommon. Database backend can handle many front end Ui and interfaces. Merrill Lynch and TD Ameritrade as well. All complex enterprise platforms. Again not hard to do. It's not a reversion or rollback. You just adapt front end to query database and output as desired. Too many non developers here opining on things they don't understand.


So you want them to completely redevelop the old experience? It is NOT just a skin. It is a completely different system top to bottom. To do what you want, they would have to create a whole new system with the old interface. That is a lot of work that has zero payback.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

mschnebly said:


> They why should anyone complain about anything since it might be fixed in some future update?


This is different, it's already been addressed and the user just didn't realize it.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

marcv said:


> I record 10 consecutive shows on same channel each day. CNBC. Each show has different name. Tivo puts these in a folder now so to delete all of them each night to clear up the play list I have to do the actions I described originally. Click each one. Confirm delete. Wait for interface to come back. Next. Ten times.


You have a few alternatives, maybe more:
Set up a wishlist for these, then go into that folder and delete as normal.
Record those shows in a big manual recording. Delete when done.
Set those shows as a record keep 1. Tomorrow the new version will automatically delete the old one. No action needed.


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## marcv (Dec 1, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> So you want them to completely redevelop the old experience? It is NOT just a skin. It is a completely different system top to bottom. To do what you want, they would have to create a whole new system with the old interface. That is a lot of work that has zero payback.


Said the person who has never developed software before. I'll leave it at that. Read my previous posts.

Zero payback? Well take the votes in my threads as well as others along with negative posts and try to calculate how many lost sales and service revenue may have been foregone. Not realistic to say zero payback. I am but one of many examples I'm sure of long time Tivo users (I started with original Tivo and owned well over a dozen since) like myself have ditched purchasing new units or simply given up on Tivo once their existing units died not wanting to deal with the new interface. Based on what I have read in these forums and on Reddit this past week pretty positive the payback is well north of zero.

But feel free to opine on software development and financials without knowing anything about the former and certainly not looking at Tivo's 2018 financials or listening to their quarterly conference calls for the latter


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

marcv said:


> Don't worry, it's not you I'm trying to convince or give customer feedback to. It is Tivo executives. They can take or leave my opinions and advice as well as others. Fate will handle things accordingly. It's all good. Like I said everyone gets to vote with their wallets in the end.


Still thinking you reach TiVo executives via this forum? As has been pointed out much earlier in this thread, that won't happen. Understanding that, there really is no point to starting, or continuing, this (double-posted) thread, other than trying to get sympathy with your rant.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

marcv said:


> Said the person who has never developed software before. I'll leave it at that. Read my previous posts.


Wow. Assume much?

And you'd be wrong.

As for payback, TiVo has already done the analysis. But you pontificate without data. And are being pompous about it. Then you reject a poster who is in the business because you think your minority's view is enough to force TiVo to go against good business decisions.

It is laughable that you think that not being able to go back to an old GUI affects TiVo's bottom line so much. Laughable.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Sometimes the 1A can be hard.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

marcv said:


> Said the person who has never developed software before.


I created and have run a software house since the 80s and such doesn't give me their financials.


> Zero payback?


My guess is it would be a negative payback at best. At worse even a bigger loss.


> But feel free to opine on software development and financials without knowing anything about the former and certainly not looking at Tivo's 2018 financials or listening to their quarterly conference calls for the latter


You have zero evidence getting exactly what _you want_ would increase their bottom line or position them better going forward in the industry as a whole. Because they aren't performing as desired offers zero proof performing as you desire will result in the opposite.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I think the original interface is iconic and Tivo should have added an option in guided setup for the user to select the desired interface.


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## jgolden (Feb 17, 2003)

I would love to try the Newest interface, but haven't because I don't want to risk an angry wife, if she doesn't like the change, or the loss of her shows if I have to go back. If I could clone the drive (or back up/restore) without losing anything then I might try it. I have even thought of buying a new tivo to try and return it within 30 days just to see if the new updates have made it usable.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

foghorn2 said:


> So basically (without divulging too much details) the local cable co does not flag CP a certain group of pay channels. With TE3 you can move the recordings to a NAS, another TE3 TiVo, a PC with Tivo Desktop. Those same recordings cant be moved from tivo to tivo at all with either TE3 or TE4 using TiVo online. Somehow TiVo online knows those programs (mainstream movies) are supposed to be flagged and the ability to transfer is not there.


That's weird. Seems like a bug. The cable co can't not flag CP. It's a byte in the stream required by the CablrCARD standard. All they can do is set it to all 0s which is copy freely. If TiVo Online isn't honoring that you should complain.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> That's weird. Seems like a bug. The cable co can't not flag CP. It's a byte in the stream required by the CablrCARD standard. All they can do is set it to all 0s which is copy freely. If TiVo Online isn't honoring that you should complain.


Interesting. I can tune my premium channels, and receive them during promotions. My CCI byte is always 00, and I have quite a few movies saved for summer watching. Please don't tell my cable feed.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

marcv said:


> Google allowed rollback for years on gmail and other services to classic versions. It's not uncommon. Database backend can handle many front end Ui and interfaces. Merrill Lynch and TD Ameritrade as well. All complex enterprise platforms. Again not hard to do. It's not a reversion or rollback. You just adapt front end to query database and output as desired. Too many non developers here opining on things they don't understand.


TE4 uses an all new database schema because it's an all new system. When you upgrade from TE3 to TE4 TiVO has code to migrate the TE3 data from the old TE3 database schema to the new TE4 schema. The reverse code would need to be written to allow a true rollback preserving the old data. TiVO's "rollback" is nothing more than allowing you to reinstall TE3 as if it's a fresh install.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

dlfl said:


> Still thinking you reach TiVo executives via this forum? As has been pointed out much earlier in this thread, that won't happen. Understanding that, there really is no point to starting, or continuing, this (double-posted) thread, other than trying to get sympathy with your rant.


Wait a minute, you don't know that one way or the other.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Joe3 said:


> Wait a minute, you don't know that one way or the other.


Sure they might read a post or two however thinking they will base a business decision on it is giving them less credit than you already have by stating you know better.


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

marcv said:


> Zero payback? Well take the votes in my threads as well as others along with negative posts and try to calculate how many lost sales and service revenue may have been foregone. Not realistic to say zero payback. I am but one of many examples I'm sure of long time Tivo users (I started with original Tivo and owned well over a dozen since) like myself have ditched purchasing new units or simply given up on Tivo once their existing units died not wanting to deal with the new interface. Based on what I have read in these forums and on Reddit this past week pretty positive the payback is well north of zero.


People who frequent forums (and even more so people who hang out on Reddit) are hardly indicative of the masses. I would suggest that a lot more people over the years have left TiVo because too much catering has been done to the 'old guard'. I know I'm one of them -- a long-time TiVo user who just got tired of making excuses when there were cheaper ways to get the same result with better performance. If you want to drive your company into bankruptcy the fastest way -- align your business model with the whims of people who have racked up thousands of posts on your forums. 

I know it's hard for people here to accept -- but the rest of the world has moved to tile-based interfaces and expects it. I remember reading one review where the reviewer remarked that using the TiVo interface felt like going back in time. The new interface is firstly designed to be able to move to more streaming platforms that the old one couldn't - but also was a way to make the old UI seem not so 'dated' when compared to what people expect coming from a world of Netflix, Plex, etc.

I held out for a while - but (for me) the poor success rate of OnePass that contained streaming content was the last straw. I just got tired of making excuses for that as well as other issues. When giving other people in my house a choice of the identical programs available via TiVo or Plex - within only a month everybody had naturally moved towards Plex and I was the only one left even touching the peanut remote. Currently I moved from Plex DVR to Emby and now I couldn't get anybody else to go back to the TiVo interface they remember even if I waved $100 under their nose as incentive. When I started selling or giving away my TiVo's - I saw this happen in other households also. One friend who I gave my Premiere too has told me that nobody has even touched the TiVo for months now.

Personally - I still have a soft spot for TiVo and was interested to see the move into a more updated UI (as well as the later news of being able to use streaming boxes). It was an improvement - but in my opinion - didn't go far enough down that path. Perhaps some more tweaks to appeal to a broader audience will change that - but right now my TiVo (and I'm assuming the TiVo's I may be getting back from people who aren't using them -- especially if they have kids in the house) are just taking up closet space.

I, too, know a little something about developing code as I've seen these arguments pop up all the way back to vi and Emacs. I'm sure there are still those who long for the days typing at their VT100 terminals with the satisfying green-on-black text.

But when people (especially forum users) claim they want innovation from TiVo (like the old days) -- they don't really want innovation. Innovation is something new. They want things to remain the same. SliceView from HDHomeRun -- that was something new. That was something that was innovative and different. Even though TiVo is playing catch-up to the rest of the world's preference in UI - the company at least realizes it has to compete on that level. With a business model of trying to sign up small-to-mid sized cable operators -- those operators and their customers are going to expect a 'modern' interface like the big cable operators have. The old interface made those cable companies look like a small-time operation. Perhaps a big-time innovation regarding the streaming box apps will really look appealing. For retail (meaning, non-MSO customers) - I would rush full force down that path as it would perhaps give the rest of the people in my house a reason to take another look at my ol' beloved TiVo.

But an even further walk down a streaming UI will surely make most of the old guard hanging around in forums heads damn near explode.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

eherberg said:


> People who frequent forums (and even more so people who hang out on Reddit) are hardly indicative of the masses. I would suggest that a lot more people over the years have left TiVo *because too much catering has been done to the 'old guard'*. . . .
> 
> But when people (especially forum users) claim they want innovation from TiVo (like the old days) -- they don't really want innovation. Innovation is something new. *They want things to remain the same.*


Sorry but, nope.

What catering to the 'old guard'? Allowing TE4 to be sidegraded to TE3 (but even there, with one's recorded shows being lost)?

And I don't necessarily want things to remain the same: I want them to remain and be _good_. Whether that means under an earlier implementation or a new innovation is of no matter to me. (Well, actually, that's not quite true: new things can be shiny and fun.  ) Examples being: autoskip under TE4, good; Suggestions under TE4, bad (and under TE3, good).


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

marcv said:


> Google allowed rollback for years on gmail and other services to classic versions. It's not uncommon. Database backend can handle many front end Ui and interfaces. Merrill Lynch and TD Ameritrade as well. All complex enterprise platforms. Again not hard to do. It's not a reversion or rollback. You just adapt front end to query database and output as desired. Too many non developers here opining on things they don't understand.


I'm afraid you just proved you don't know anything about modern development. The applications you describe (and I happened to work on the database behind T.Rowe Price's app) are web based. They are HTML UIs written in C# (cshtml) that make use of Web Services and .NET APIs to access the data. These are just as sensitive to database changes as any other app. However, they are easy to completely rewrite without changing the data structure. In the Google and T.Rowe examples (I haven't done any work with TD Ameritrade in over a decade) those were front end changes only, so all they had to do to keep the old website code available down an alternative path.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

eherberg said:


> People who frequent forums (and even more so people who hang out on Reddit) are hardly indicative of the masses. I would suggest that a lot more people over the years have left TiVo because too much catering has been done to the 'old guard'. I know I'm one of them -- a long-time TiVo user who just got tired of making excuses when there were cheaper ways to get the same result with better performance. If you want to drive your company into bankruptcy the fastest way -- align your business model with the whims of people who have racked up thousands of posts on your forums.
> 
> I know it's hard for people here to accept -- but the rest of the world has moved to tile-based interfaces and expects it. I remember reading one review where the reviewer remarked that using the TiVo interface felt like going back in time. The new interface is firstly designed to be able to move to more streaming platforms that the old one couldn't - but also was a way to make the old UI seem not so 'dated' when compared to what people expect coming from a world of Netflix, Plex, etc.
> 
> ...


Again, you can't compare two unequals and make them equal to each other. Your opinion conflates form and substance. One will always cancel out the other. The length of your post dose not change the laws of logic or physics.

People here have taken issue with TiVo putting what it looks like over how well it works. This guy is just saying TE3 works better. However, you sir, are free to try to make it something totally off the wall, good luck with that.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

Joe3 said:


> Again, you can't compare two unequals and make them equal to each other. Your opinion conflates form and substance. One will always cancel out the other. The length of your post dose not change the laws of logic or physics.
> 
> People here have taken issue with TiVo putting what it looks like over how well it works. This guy is just saying TE3 works better. However, you sir, are free to try to make it something totally off the wall, good luck with that.


He's just trying to explain why TiVo's not about to spend any development effort to preserve settings on rollback. And that's what all companies do. Put their full effort into their present offering which in this case is TE4. It's irrelevant that some users will not upgrade to TE4.

Bbbbbut people will leave TiVO! And companies factor this in. You don't think Netflix knows it's about to lose 700k - 1 million users when they raise prices by $1? It's just business don't take it personally.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

CloudAtlas said:


> He's just trying to explain why TiVo's not about to spend any development effort to preserve settings on rollback. And that's what all companies do. Put their full effort into their present offering which in this case is TE4. It's irrelevant that some users will not upgrade to TE4.
> 
> Bbbbbut people will leave TiVO! And companies factor this in. You don't think Netflix knows it's about to lose 700k - 1 million users when they raise prices by $1? It's just business don't take it personally.


The sound of rain needs no interpretation.


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## TonyBlunt (Jan 28, 2014)

Computer systems like Tivo's undergo constant updating and enhancing. Eventually the changes the developers would like to implement necessitate a complete redesign/rewrite rather than changing the original code. Focus will always be on the new and improved version, no point in attempting to maintain two systems unless there is a significant economic benefit. There will always be a group of users who do not want to change, perhaps they will adapt, perhaps they will leave, perhaps they will stay but become vocal PIAs. They will be ignored as progress has been made, and will be continued. Occasionally they prevail and the new system fails, but that is clearly not the case in this instance. Time to move on....


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

I think it's been established in this thread that a new wax job and a little saw dust in the core engine can for some hide what's missing under the hood, but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to convince people it's progress and any counterpoint to your own is against or afraid of change when people are in fact demanding change and you are in fact obviously in opposition to it.

Maybe the better question is this, "I prefer the last TiVo version until they come up with a new version that expands the last versions functionality.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Joe3 said:


> I think it's been established in this thread that a new wax job and a little saw dust in the core engine can for some hide what's missing under the hood...


I upgraded the day it was available and have yet to find something "missing" To my thinking (and apparently TiVo's) what's missing wasn't used/needed to any degree for their current and future customer base.

I think this has been shown by the lack of "upset" customers. If they actually mattered you'd see endless new members posting about such... all told it was been extremely quiet and basically rounds to zero (percent) of their customers.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Wow! Just read the entire thread and can say this. I liked te3 but have learned to like TE4. Like someone said...is there any other boxes with 6 tuners all buffering 30 minutes? There has to be a business reason to make TiVo similar to Google play, Amazon, Netflix and all the rest. Maybe something we haven't thought of. Maybe a TiVo app to download to your smart TV giving full DVR capabilities with cloud storage??


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Charles R said:


> I upgraded the day it was available and have yet to find something "missing" To my thinking (and apparently TiVo's) what's missing wasn't used/needed to any degree for their current and future customer base.
> 
> I think this has been shown by the lack of "upset" customers. If they actually mattered you'd see endless new members posting about such... all told it was been extremely quiet and basically rounds to zero (percent) of their customers.


You are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. The sensation of falling is the same as flying I'll give you that much.

This happens all the time and everytime a post points out TiVo's bad use of its software resources in a pointless endeavor to spend the time on putting lipstick on brand, rather than upgrading and maintaining core product features. It's astonishing that even when TiVo in desperation splits itself in half to save itself from bankruptcy and continues to fall in value, still, will not put their resources immediately in product development.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

CloudAtlas said:


> Bbbbbut people will leave TiVO! And companies factor this in. You don't think Netflix knows it's about to lose 700k - 1 million users when they raise prices by $1? It's just business don't take it personally.


Tivo launched TE4 back in Oct 2017 (around Halloween time frame if I recall...a spooky omen in hindsight). So far it hasn't proven to be able to reverse their fortunes and attract anywhere the customer base Netflix enjoys. So your comparison is Apples and Oranges. Tivo wishes they could make decisions that can tolerate anywhere near the sort of churn you're describing above. Tivo needed to cling to every damn customer they could and instead clamored to find new revenue streams and hoped a new interface would attract new recurring revenue - loyal Tivo customers be damned. It failed.

TE4 may not have been central to their demise but it sure as hell wasn't its savior either. Auto skip and Apple-tile-wanna-be-UI aside, their financial results speak for themselves. And while TE3 probably couldn't have saved them either I'd suggest that leaving the very customers that brought them to the dance standing along the wall like a bunch of nerds while the new kids fawn over their new prom dress hasn't exactly helped them either.

Back to enjoying my Tivos (and yes, one of them is running TE4) and milking my lifetime subscriptions while I can.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

exdishguy said:


> Tivo launched TE4 back in Oct 2017?? So far it hasn't proven to be able to reverse their fortunes...Tivo needed to cling to every damn customer they could and instead clamored to find new revenue streams and hoped a new interface would attract new recurring revenue - loyal Tivo customers be damned. It failed.


Let's do the math and then you'll get it. Remember these are business decisions nothing more.

...700,000 retail customers
7,000,000+ OEM customers

OEM's, who had TE3 deployed, asked for a Whole-Home offering with modern UI + voice recognition that was competitive with Comcast/FIOS/AT&T. TiVO developed TE4 over multiple years with direct OEM input.

TiVo's roll is to develop product for OEM customers that don't have the resources or the hundreds of millions of dollars to develop and maintain their own proprietary offering. Comcast has over 1,000 engineers working on services including X1 and cloud offerings.

It's a foregone conclusion that TiVO's retail business opportunity is limited. At its peak TiVO had only 4.25M users. When TiVO was synonymous with the DVR. Because TiVO was the ONLY DVR option. Cable & Satellite did not offer a DVR (yet). This was before the CableCard and TA monopoly roadblocks. And at a time when people watched TV instead of being online or watching Netflix.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

CloudAtlas said:


> Let's do the math and then you'll get it. Remember these are business decisions nothing more.
> 
> ...700,000 retail customers
> 7,000,000+ OEM customers
> ...


Here's some math for ya' - their revised guidance for 2019 is sitting somewhere between $72M to $80M in pre-tax losses. So yea, I can see where that whole OEM thing is working out splendidly.

Incidentally, Netflix added 9.6M new subscribers in Q1 2019 and reported $4.52 billion in revenue - improving their top line revenue by 22.2% year over year.

BTW - Roku grew their _product player_ business 18% and expects a profit between $10m - $20m for 2019.

Again, I don't think clinging to TE3 would have saved Tivo. Fundamentally they bet the farm on cable TV (as you've stated above) and that is the biggest reason for their current financial status. Pissing off loyal Tivo subscribers like me just adds a rotten-cherry to the steaming poop-pie they've managed to bake.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

exdishguy said:


> Here's some math for ya' - their revised guidance for 2019 is sitting somewhere between $72M to $80M in pre-tax losses. So yea, I can see where that whole OEM thing is working out splendidly.


It is when you consider that the "losses" include a large chunk of money dedicated to supporting the retail market. TiVo never made a dime of profit from retail ops. They survived this long by blackmailing others over patents that should never have been granted. TiVo's retail days are clearly numbered...moving to an OEM style IPTV solution is their future.


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## BNBTivo (Sep 7, 2015)

Diana Collins said:


> It is when you consider that the "losses" include a large chunk of money dedicated to supporting the retail market. TiVo never made a dime of profit from retail ops. They survived this long by blackmailing others over patents that should never have been granted. TiVo's retail days are clearly numbered...moving to an OEM style IPTV solution is their future.


You think Tivo has a future? Who is going to pay for a Tivo IPTV solution? Nobody. Tivo's days are numbered with IPTV. Their only real option right now is OEM's and forever long that will last. And I agree with another poster, that's why Hydra was introduced. It was a smart move. Tivo doesn't care about retail customers.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

I never said their IPTV solution would be offered at retail. They have a complete platform for MSOs - i.e the OEM market. That IS Hydra. Why this so hard to understand?

TiVo developed Hydra for their OEM market. They have continued to support TE3 as a courtesy. The retail market has been written off. They will ride it out for awhile yet..at least until sold again. Then it will be up to the new buyer to keep the retail units active or pull the plug on retail all together.

I’ll use my Roamios (with TE4) as long as it makes sense for us. If I junk them I’ll still have saved hundreds of dollars every year over what the providers offer. I’m sorry to see the end of TiVo DVRs but I’m not angry, annoyed or disgusted with TiVo (unlike many of the TE3 fan base). The world has changed since TiVo started out, and there is nothing we (or they) can do about it.

If you think that the retail market could be made into a profitable business, I defy you to explain your business plan. How will you pay for the R&D, the manufacturing, marketing and distribution costs (particularly when you offer lifetime service). And if you require monthly payments, how much would they be? Can you still make the case against the provider DVR if you do?

The population here is heavily skewed towards long time customers and, still, half of us have upgraded to TE4.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> I never said their IPTV solution would be offered at retail. They have a complete platform for MSOs - i.e the OEM market. That IS Hydra. Why this so hard to understand?
> 
> TiVo developed Hydra for their OEM market. They have continued to support TE3 as a courtesy. The retail market has been written off. They will ride it out for awhile yet..at least until sold again. Then it will be up to the new buyer to keep the retail units active or pull the plug on retail all together.
> 
> ...


Goood one, the numbers clearly show investing in an industry everyone hates and is dying was a boneheaded move. But you go on making predictions about the end of TiVo retail.

"If you think that the retail market could be made into a profitable business, I defy you to explain your business plan"

Well, many pieces of a good retail plan has been laid out over the years in this community form with others even providing research development to TiVo for free. Good for them and us for their good work. However, as far as a profitable business plan go, that's what you pay competent people to do and not give freely to a for-profit.

"How will you pay for the R&D, the manufacturing, marketing and distribution costs (particularly when you offer lifetime service)?"

In retail, I'll offer you just one of many and one of the most obvious pieces of a retail business plan. You sell and get out of the OEM business while the getting's good, dumping the cheap OEM, MSO cable like TiVos sold at retail. OEM, MSO, cable is all one shrinking business and will not be back unless someone invents a time machine. Take that money and put it into development of a high end product that early adopters would pay a high price to own. I am giving you this as an example of multitudes of businesse plans that could do the job for TiVo's retail business.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

Joe3 said:


> Goood one, the numbers clearly show investing in an industry everyone hates and is dying was a boneheaded move.


As someone who works in finance please show me the OEM market numbers which clearly show this. As well as the numbers that clearly show how profitable the retail market is/was. I'll let you pick the TiVo earnings year for the retail market numbers.

TiVO has been largely unprofitable since the start including during the golden years. I actually was a happy TiVO S2 lifetime customer in 2004, for a 90 days, but sold. Why? Time Warner Cable offered free DVR service for life on their first ever DVR. $700 vs FREE. TiVO can't compete.

Adding an additional *recurring* revenue stream with the OEM market has kept the retail channel afloat. Each of those 7 million+ OEM customers generates monthly revenue. Month after month. Year after year. It's why you were able to buy that new generation Roamio or Bolt or Mini through retail. Why the OTA Roamio and OTA Bolt products could be developed. OEMs aren't interested in the OTA product.

If this low-volume retail market were profitable Apple would have offered a DVR 15 years ago. The hardware market is a loss leader and the lifetime fee barely covers R&D costs. It's the *recurring* monthly fees that over time are profitable but the number of customers who will buy a DVR + pay monthly fees is limited.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

" said:


> Incidentally, Netflix...BTW - Roku ...


Netflix is a very rare a company with great management including a founder as CEO. But I used Netflix to illustrate a point not because the company itself has anything in common with TiVo.

Roku is another great company with its founder still as CEO. It is more like TiVO in that it has never been profitable and loses money on its hardware business. But due to competition Roku was forced to pivot its business plan to advertising as a revenue stream. Exactly how Google and Facebook make all their revenue. *TiVO needs to create this revenue stream*.

"If you're an advertiser, you're seeing your viewers shift from traditional linear TV to streaming&#8230;. When viewers moved to mobile, the ad dollars took a few years to catch up. But they will catch up." -Roku CEO Anthony Wood said this on CNBC:

TiVO should create a TiVO channel serving retail customers as well as on any platform the TiVO app runs just as Roku offers. Maybe even get in on the subscriptions add-ons revenue with Showtime, Starz and EPIX.

And unfortunately TiVO needs start displaying ads on the Home screen like a Roku does. TiVO could inject a small 5 second program sponsored by ad at the start of shows. Sponsored by *Geico*-*15 minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance. *

TiVO's management owes its shareholders value on their investment.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Joe3 said:


> In retail, I'll offer you just one of many and one of the most obvious pieces of a retail business plan.


Write-off the OTA business. Amazon with their Recast (whether or not it fits your desired needs) will command enough market share to make any competitor irrelevant. Recast plus a Fire TV for roughly $260 including 4 tuners and lifetime guide. Again it might not be what you want but it will virtually guarantee no one else will be able to compete for any length of time.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I never upgraded to TE4. I just didn't see the need. 

But now that it has auto commercial skip and has been out awhile I'm thinking of updating to TE4. 

I imagine eventually no one will have a choice to stay behind. TE4 is designed to generate some monthly revenue. They'll just say you gotta upgrade to get guide data. We no longer support the old UI.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> I imagine eventually no one will have a choice to stay behind. TE4 is designed to generate some monthly revenue. They'll just say you gotta upgrade to get guide data. We no longer support the old UI.


 TE4 doesn't run on series 4 or earlier TiVos, so they couldn't do that without wiping out support for all those model TiVos.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

CloudAtlas said:


> As someone who works in finance please show me the OEM market numbers which clearly show this. As well as the numbers that clearly show how profitable the retail market is/was. I'll let you pick the TiVo earnings year for the retail market numbers...


Show me the numbers that OEM is profitable and that it's the retail market alone that accounts solely for their loses.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> Show me the numbers that OEM is profitable and that it's the retail market alone that accounts solely for their loses.


I refer you to page F-4 of TiVo's most recent 10-K filing. Compare the lines "hardware revenue" with "cost of hardware revenue" and you will see that manufacturing and selling a DVR at retail is a money losing business.

Then do the same for Licensing of "software and services."


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> I refer you to page F-4 of TiVo's most recent 10-K filing. Compare the lines "hardware revenue" with "cost of hardware revenue" and you will see that manufacturing and selling a DVR at retail is a money losing business.
> 
> Then do the same for Licensing of "software and services."


One_ could_ say that part of the retail loss is due to the piracy of TiVo's IP by other manufacturers--where is the TiVo legal win $ put on the balance sheet? Having said that, though, my guess is that the majority of the lawsuit enforcement activity (and the $ recovery) is on the cableco side.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> I refer you to page F-4 of TiVo's most recent 10-K filing. Compare the lines "hardware revenue" with "cost of hardware revenue" and you will see that manufacturing and selling a DVR at retail is a money losing business.
> 
> Then do the same for Licensing of "software and services."


I don't put much into their own 10-K filing. It shows profit.

Never said retail is making money. It's no surprise giving the feedback form long time customers here who know that TiVo isn't making money with Hydra because it's more facelift than an upgrade.

The cost of licensing, services and software revenues, excluding depreciation and amortization of intangible assets includes more than the OEMs, but shows overall profit, but it has the OEMs profitability or not buried in it. It does not show that making TiVo for cable is a big win for them or that retail should be lead by TiVo cable, which is arguably holding retail back in development and profit.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Okay, so...you got nothing.

If you don’t accept SEC filings, there is no point continuing.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> Okay, so...you got nothing.
> 
> If you don't accept SEC filings, there is no point continuing.


Don't put words in my mouth. I never said I didn't accept their SEC filings. The question is are they making money off of their contracts with a shrinking cable industry. The Report does not break this specific information out, but combines it with all their licensing, services, and software. Therefore, the filing can not answer the specific question about the OMEs alone. But the company does show profitably in that broader combined line item that I assume includes, but is not limited to the OMEs.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

Joe3 said:


> Don't put words in my mouth. I never said I didn't accept their SEC filings. The question is are they making money off of their contracts with a shrinking cable industry. The Report does not break this specific information out, but combines it with all their licensing, services, and software. Therefore, the filing can not answer the specific question about the OMEs alone. But the company does show profitably in that broader combined line item that I assume includes, but is not limited to the OMEs.


Each new OEM is initially going to have upfront costs for TiVO which will affect the short term bottom line. But long term it's a profitable recurring revenue stream not unlike TiVO's retail monthly customers.

Companies need to diversify so as not to depend on one market sector for revenue. Even hugely profitable Apple has been forced to diversify due to slowing iPhone sales. As recently as 2018 iPhone sales accounted for 70% of revenue!


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## lucidrenegade (Aug 21, 2013)

At the rate that Tivo's patents are being invalidated, I wouldn't be surprised if they have nothing left within a couple of years. Prego or Ragu or whatever his name is better start innovating.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

If the idea of owning a DVR instead of renting it from the provider was such a hot market, then TiVo should have cleaned up back when the only competition was a VCR. But they didn't. Retail sales *never *took off. The only really successful area for TiVo has ALWAYS been OEMs - going all the way back to the original DirecTiVos. Without DirecTV, TiVo might have folded back in the mid to late 2000's. I still have 6 of them (plus 2 of DirecTV's own DVRs) collecting dust in the attic.


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## leiff (Aug 24, 2005)

Loss of thumbs of recent T4 update is a big problem for me. I use thumbs to remind me if I've seen something or not. This would probably push me back to T3 except for auto skip doesn't work on T3


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

lucidrenegade said:


> At the rate that Tivo's patents are being invalidated, I wouldn't be surprised if they have nothing left within a couple of years. Prego or Ragu or whatever his name is better start innovating.


 Ragu just got recalled for too much plastic


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

leiff said:


> Loss of thumbs of recent T4 update is a big problem for me. I use thumbs to remind me if I've seen something or not. This would probably push me back to T3 except for auto skip doesn't work on T3


Yes, if for no other reason, the Thumbs marker is useful for keeping track of programs you have already watched at a glance (and I won't budge from TE3 until I see the utility in doing so). I use the Thumbs Up/Down marker on Netflix's streaming service for this express purpose.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

What you have here is a company whose gears are greased by researchers and developers and a management whose only true development is it's tin ear to that reality and therefore, the key to its own survival. It's hard to watch a company that has the whole world in front of them, slowly cannibalize its features and not add any features of equal functionality to appease a rapidly shrinking cable industry. The value of retail is its freedom of independent innovation that lies in its business not just at the cash registers. The true value of retail is in the fuel it produces that creates the patents in the first place, that keeps it relevant, interesting, and alive.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Yes, Tivo is killing itself with the night of a thousands cuts.
Remove a feature, watch users complain and drop
Kill another feature, people leave.

Except auto skip, they havent innovated anything in 12 years!


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

philhu said:


> Yes, Tivo is killing itself with the night of a thousands cuts.
> Remove a feature, watch users complain and drop
> Kill another feature, people leave.
> 
> Except auto skip, they havent innovated anything in 12 years!


And what's even more fascinating is the belief that the public is to stupid to notice.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

Joe3 said:


> And what's even more fascinating is the belief that the public is to stupid to notice.


Unfortunately the public doesn't know TiVO is still in business. If you google "TiVO" one of the top questions asked is "Is TiVo still around 2018?"

When I've accidentally used the phrase "I'll just TiVO it" or "I TiVo'd it" people will ask "You still have a TiVO?!" because they think I'm still using a box from 2004. Or they start joking about the beep it use to make. If it wasn't for CableCard & the TA's it wouldn't be a hard sell on a Bolt & Mini setup @ $12.50/mo.

Honestly TE3 or TE4 UI isn't a major selling point as long as the UI is easy to use. Most people have been through numerous Cable Co. DVR UI's & new DVRs the past 15yrs. It's just a device to record and watch TV shows like a better VCR.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

philhu said:


> Yes, Tivo is killing itself with the night of a thousands cuts.
> Remove a feature, watch users complain and drop
> Kill another feature, people leave.
> 
> *Except auto skip, they havent innovated anything in 12 years!*


QuickMode (love it!) and SkipMode, as well as easy enactment of captions (yes, I know, mandated by the FCC, but still).


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## pkincy (Sep 23, 2006)

Tivo was far ahead of the DVR industry in the late 90's. My first unit was a Philips HDR110 in 99. They held that lead and were the Cat's Meow until the mid 00's although you had to move to DirectV to use them at that time which totally screwed those of us that had bought lifetime service for the Philips boxes. I came back recently with a Bolt although I still have 2 Spectrum boxes on 2 of my 3 TVs. Given the change in interface I will revert to the Spectrum DVR when my annual subscription is up for renewal. I simply see no advantage any longer to the Tivo interface and lord knows their equipment is clunky so no reason to love them for that.


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## Phil T (Oct 29, 2003)

pkincy said:


> I came back recently with a Bolt although I still have 2 Spectrum boxes on 2 of my 3 TVs. Given the change in interface I will revert to the Spectrum DVR when my annual subscription is up for renewal. I simply see no advantage any longer to the Tivo interface and lord knows their equipment is clunky so no reason to love them for that.


My daughter has the X1 through Comcast and I have a TiVo Bolt and 2 minis. I get to play with the X1 a lot when we dog sit. Talk about something clunky. I much prefer the speed, commercial skip and overall look and feel of Hydra over the X1.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

As I said above: NOBODY CARES ABOUT A RETAIL CABLECARD DVR!

I don't care if TiVo added 20 new features tomorrow, as has been said upthread: DVRs are just a way to watch and time shift TV. Nobody really cares about the UI, they just use whatever you put in front of them. Nobody is going to go out and plunk down $1000 for a DVR that has a "better" UI (TE3 or TE4). We started with DirecTV in 2001 specifically because they offered the DirecTiVo. But when News Corp tossed TiVo out and they built their own software, we used that. When we switched to Verizon FiOS I was planning on using their Quantum 6 tuner DVRs, but when I saw how expensive that was, I decided to look at TiVo (we have 7 TVs - not a typical situation). So we bought 2 Roamio Pros and 5 Minis, back in mid-2014 when there were those discount codes being sold on eBay. Even so, it tooks 18 months to break even, but I expected the solution to be good for 3 years (and we are now past 5).

So, in my case - despite our whole family being TiVo fans - the decision to return to TiVo in 2014 was based SOLELY on cost. Not on UI, or features.

Want to know why there hasn't been any innovation at TiVo? Innovation is driven by market demand. You need to have a market, understand the unmet needs of that market and then develop products or services to meet that need. TiVo's problem is that there is NO retail market. Therefore there is nothing to innovate. So, they serve the only market they have: cable operators.

I'd love to know how many new cablecard capable DVRs TiVo has sold in the last 2 years...I'll bet it is a shockingly low number. And the number sold to 'first time' TiVo owners has got to near zero.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

If you make the features stand out compared to competitors you have marketing points to sell. Once sold, those features get ingrained into the brand experience for the user and you get loyalty of brand. You make features disappear, so too your loyal customers.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> As I said above: NOBODY CARES ABOUT A RETAIL CABLECARD DVR!
> 
> I don't care if TiVo added 20 new features tomorrow, as has been said upthread: DVRs are just a way to watch and time shift TV. Nobody really cares about the UI, they just use whatever you put in front of them. Nobody is going to go out and plunk down $1000 for a DVR that has a "better" UI (TE3 or TE4).


Presumably I'm not the average user, but, in the OTA world that I occupy, I do and would, for OTA use. But it all depends on the features. I live by QuickMode (is that considered part of the UI?) for probably 25-50% of my viewing and would pay extra for it (well, in fact, I have: I'm on TiVo)--it has given me more life, literally speaking, and extra sanity (especially for watching the news and politicians).


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## bobfrank (Mar 17, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> As I said above: NOBODY CARES ABOUT A RETAIL CABLECARD DVR!
> 
> I don't care if TiVo added 20 new features tomorrow, as has been said upthread: DVRs are just a way to watch and time shift TV. *Nobody really cares about the UI, they just use whatever you put in front of them. Nobody is going to go out and plunk down $1000 for a DVR that has a "better" UI (TE3 or TE4).* We started with DirecTV in 2001 specifically because they offered the DirecTiVo. But when News Corp tossed TiVo out and they built their own software, we used that. When we switched to Verizon FiOS I was planning on using their Quantum 6 tuner DVRs, but when I saw how expensive that was, I decided to look at TiVo (we have 7 TVs - not a typical situation). So we bought 2 Roamio Pros and 5 Minis, back in mid-2014 when there were those discount codes being sold on eBay. Even so, it tooks 18 months to break even, but I expected the solution to be good for 3 years (and we are now past 5).
> 
> ...


"Nobody" is a strong word, and is wrong. I'm a case on point. I bought a Tivo back when the first gen 1 with 60 hours capacity came out. Years later we moved from California to Florida. Years later we started spending several months each year working in California and bought a second home. Not wanting to spend the money to duplicate our Tivos in Califronia we started using the cable company DVR when we were in California. We hated it so much that my wife, who is not one to spend unnecessarily, decided we had to get a Tivo for California even if it was only for a few months each year.

Proof that some people will spend for a better UI.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> Presumably I'm not the average user, but, in the OTA world that I occupy, I do and would, for OTA use. But it all depends on the features. I live by QuickMode (is that considered part of the UI?) for probably 25-50% of my viewing and would pay extra for it (well, in fact, I have: I'm on TiVo)--it has given me more life, literally speaking, and extra sanity (especially for watching the news and politicians).


An OTA DVR is a different issue. There is a market there, and LOTS of solutions coming to market, including the Amazon Recast, Plex DVR, Tablo and others. All of them cheaper than TiVo.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

bobfrank said:


> "Nobody" is a strong word, and is wrong.


Other than the few hundred folks that come here regularly, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that has even thought about replacing any STB.

Even if you were to say there are 100,000 potential buyers, that is a tiny market, compared with the millions that just use what their cable company gives them. That's the issue. Millions vs thousands. Which market would you cater to? The retail market has a very low incremental cost and serves as a test bed. That is why you won't see much innovation targeted at the "thousands market" and more targeted at the "millions market."


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

"*Commoditization*: it's the mortal enemy of the distinctive branding that's so prized by companies the world over. And it's exactly the affliction that's befallen TiVo. Even though ReplayTV beat it to market by a few months in 1999, it was TiVo that quickly became synonymous with digital video recorder (DVR) technology. But in the intervening years, satellite and cable companies have ramped up their DVR offerings, stealing much of TiVo's potential market share by providing "free" boxes to subscribers.

To be sure, there are still plenty of features offered by a real TiVo that the competition can't touch: a best-in-class interface, the ultimate ease of use, impressive home networking features, and the like. But more and more non-TiVo DVRs either meet or exceed many of TiVo's once-unique offerings." -CNET April 2006 Series2 DT review


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> Other than the few hundred folks that come here regularly, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that has even thought about replacing any STB.
> 
> Even if you were to say there are 100,000 potential buyers, that is a tiny market, compared with the millions that just use what their cable company gives them. That's the issue. Millions vs thousands. Which market would you cater to? The retail market has a very low incremental cost and serves as a test bed. That is why you won't see much innovation targeted at the "thousands market" and more targeted at the "millions market."


This would water down TiVo, continue to purge any uniqueness, put it in direct competition to free cable boxes where they will lose if they haven't screwed it up already.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> Want to know why there hasn't been any innovation at TiVo? Innovation is driven by *a competitive market.*


FTFY. Tivo's problem has always been a lack of anyone serious pushing them to be better. Demand is created by features that folks want and innovation provides that.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Diana Collins said:


> I don't care if TiVo added 20 new features tomorrow, as has been said upthread: DVRs are just a way to watch and time shift TV. Nobody really cares about the UI, they just use whatever you put in front of them. Nobody is going to go out and plunk down $1000 for a DVR that has a "better" UI (TE3 or TE4).


Commercial skip trumps any number of "nerd forum requested features" for the viable market. So if that doesn't "turn the tide" any number of nerd features aren't going to help...



Diana Collins said:


> An OTA DVR is a different issue. There is a market there, and LOTS of solutions coming to market, including the Amazon Recast, Plex DVR, Tablo and others. All of them cheaper than TiVo.


Amazon's Fire TV has the largest market share (among streamers) and by default Recast will dominate the OTA market. If you want to exist you'll have to at least play in their arena... mainstream streaming devices.



Joe3 said:


> This would water down TiVo, continue to purge any uniqueness, put it in direct competition to free cable boxes where they will lose if they haven't screwed it up already.


You have to make your product conducive to being adopted by the cable providers who don't have an in-house DVR solution.



slowbiscuit said:


> Tivo's problem has always been a lack of anyone serious pushing them to be better.


I think they have always had or should have had more than enough motivation by the simple fact they want to stay in business... which has never been guaranteed.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Tivo's problem today is the DVR itself is dead.  The past ~13 years their problem was cable/satellite had all the power to squeeze them out of the market. But today their problem is there is little reason for a dVR to exist in the age of on-demand streaming over the internets. And every year this is more the case than the year before.

The new UI is their attempt to stay afloat by generating recurring revenue from the UI itself. The $1000 DVR today is....a hard sell. Maybe this lets them come in at a lower pricepoint or something. Maybe this helps them stay relevant with MSOs as well.


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## bobfrank (Mar 17, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> Other than the few hundred folks that come here regularly, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that has even thought about replacing any STB.
> 
> Even if you were to say there are 100,000 potential buyers, that is a tiny market, compared with the millions that just use what their cable company gives them. That's the issue. Millions vs thousands. Which market would you cater to? The retail market has a very low incremental cost and serves as a test bed. That is why you won't see much innovation targeted at the "thousands market" and more targeted at the "millions market."


I believe the main reason so few might think about replacing the cable DVR is they just don't know about the Tivo alternative. Tivo has historically done a really bad job of marketing. Even the TV commercials they ran a long time ago failed to show the great UI and other benefits that Tivo brought to the marketplace.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> Tivo's problem today is the DVR itself is dead. .


As long as they keep bundling phone, internet, and cable to save money, it will be there.:blush:


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> *Tivo's problem today is the DVR itself is dead. * The past ~13 years their problem was cable/satellite had all the power to squeeze them out of the market. But today their problem is there is little reason for a dVR to exist in the age of on-demand streaming over the internets. And every year this is more the case than the year before.
> 
> The new UI is their attempt to stay afloat by generating recurring revenue from the UI itself. The $1000 DVR today is....a hard sell. Maybe this lets them come in at a lower pricepoint or something. Maybe this helps them stay relevant with MSOs as well.


Not in my house (OTA, non-streaming all the way, baby).


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> This would water down TiVo, continue to purge any uniqueness,* put it in direct competition to free cable boxes* where they will lose if they haven't screwed it up already.


No, you still don't get it...IT MAKES *TIVO* THE FREE CABLE BOX!


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

bobfrank said:


> I believe the main reason so few might think about replacing the cable DVR is they just don't know about the Tivo alternative. Tivo has historically done a really bad job of marketing. Even the TV commercials they ran a long time ago failed to show the great UI and other benefits that Tivo brought to the marketplace.


Most people I encouraged to look at TiVo knew about TiVo but didn't see the advantage. While long term costs are lower, the big upfront outlay stops many people. Coming up with $1000+ seems a lot harder than $15/month. People care more about cash flow than total cost.

(BTW: Given the state of linear vs. OTT broadcasting, I don't recommend TiVo any longer.)


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

bobfrank said:


> I believe the main reason so few might think about replacing the cable DVR is they just don't know about the Tivo alternative. Tivo has historically done a really bad job of marketing. Even the TV commercials they ran a long time ago failed to show the great UI and other benefits that Tivo brought to the marketplace.


It can be a royal pain in the butt to get a Tivo working. You've got to do your homework. You've got to learn that you need something called a CableCard and maybe something called a Switched Digital Video box. You have to call your cable provider and hope they know what you're talking about, because you're not sure yourself.

And assuming you can get that hardware, you need to get it working at your house. Good luck. You've got to "pair your CableCard" (whatever that means), you've got to get the SDV box installed correctly (wait, I though Tivo replaced the cable company's box. It just piggybacks?). Then sometimes certain channels don't come in. Now you've got to figure out if that's a CableCard issue, an SDV box issue, an RF quality issue which the cable company box didn't have, an issue with your Tivo, or the way you have everything installed. Tivo points the finger at your cable company, who in turn points it right back at Tivo. Meanwhile you blew $1000 on a box that doesn't work and nobody can figure out how to get it working.

Then you realize your $1000 box doesn't do PPV or on-demand that well if at all. And of course you've got to spend even more money on more boxes if you want to watch TV in other rooms. And for some reason those boxes don't have a wireless option even though it's 2019 and almost everything else is wireless at this point (even my furnace filter is wireless).

Then if two years later that $1000 box dies, you've got to spend more money replacing it.

Tivo is simply too complicated to set up for most people. They want to call somebody, have them come in and do their thing, and It Just Works. And when it doesn't work, they call somebody and It Just Works again.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

So far, 47 people (including myself) in this poll prefer the old interface. But I never upgraded, so I don't need the ability to downgrade. So assuming half the people never upgraded, then only two dozen people want the feature the OP wants. At best, four dozen people want this feature.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> It can be a royal pain in the butt to get a Tivo working. You've got to do your homework. You've got to learn that you need something called a CableCard and maybe something called a Switched Digital Video box. You have to call your cable provider and hope they know what you're talking about, because you're not sure yourself.
> 
> And assuming you can get that hardware, you need to get it working at your house. Good luck. You've got to "pair your CableCard" (whatever that means), you've got to get the SDV box installed correctly (wait, I though Tivo replaced the cable company's box. It just piggybacks?). Then sometimes certain channels don't come in. Now you've got to figure out if that's a CableCard issue, an SDV box issue, an RF quality issue which the cable company box didn't have, an issue with your Tivo, or the way you have everything installed. Tivo points the finger at your cable company, who in turn points it right back at Tivo. Meanwhile you blew $1000 on a box that doesn't work and nobody can figure out how to get it working.
> 
> ...


The OTA world is_ so_ much easier--simply turn the box on, go through guided setup, and there you are.* 

* Unless you are using MoCA and have anything but a straight-thru experience--then, watch out.


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