# Lost "Confirmed Dead" OAD 2-7-08



## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

20 minutes and no thread?

What a great episode. Can't wait to see why they want Ben, or how they even know about him. And the Dharma station in the Sahara with polar bears should be interesting, hopefully they get back to that.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Charlotte Staples Lewis?

CS Lewis?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Long story, but the first 10 minutes of the show didn't record. What happened, or alternatively, when will it be available on abc.go.com?


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## woolybugger (Nov 12, 2004)

Best. Show. Ever.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> Charlotte Staples Lewis?
> 
> CS Lewis?


Good catch!


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Charlotte Staples Lewis?
> 
> CS Lewis?


CS Lewis? Of Narnia fame? Correct me if I am wrong since I have not seen or read Narnia but don't the heroes of the story walk through a doorway to another world?

Hmmm...


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I just want to see Ben get beat up some more. A couple times an episode is pretty good!


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

ONLY 6 POSTS?! Slackers.

Wow, just freaking wow.

Must digest.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jenhudson said:


> ONLY 6 POSTS?! Slackers.
> 
> Wow, just freaking wow.
> 
> Must digest.


 I think that's what I am doing. Digesting. There was a lot happening wasn't there! In true Lost fashion, answers are given, but more questions are brought up!


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ok, it hasn't been said yet... so it falls to me..

Lost is BACK.. baybee!
This was a great way to bring in the new crew,


Spoiler



and I really liked that we're seeing THEIR flashbacks now.. not positive on that yet tho


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I know this is a stupid nitpick, but in the picture of Ben going through what like airport security, the CRT monitor had no power chord going into it.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

More layers than an onion. Must see TV is back!


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

betts4 said:


> I just want to see Ben get beat up some more. A couple times an episode is pretty good!


+1...I love seeing him punched in the face, 4 or 5 times!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> ...the CRT monitor had no power chord...


Would that be a C5? 

I gotta say, I needed this episode. It's been a terrible night--my trip to one apartment building to inspect a vandalized door was interrupted by a SWAT raid on an apartment at another of my buildings. It was nice to come home with a bag of Wendys and find on my TiVo Lost at its very finest.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Ben=Yoda

LOL!


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## waldingrl (Jan 19, 2005)

Tonight was one of those nights that I really liked Ben.


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

I'm Lost, In Detroit they played last weeks episode??? I was all set for a new Lost and I got a rerun??


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

nrrhgreg said:


> And the Dharma station in the Sahara with polar bears should be interesting, hopefully they get back to that.


Was that actually a station or just a polar bear? I know there was a Dharma symbol but it appeared to me to be on a collar or some sort of harness. I thought it was just something the bear was wearing.

I didn't see anything that looked like a station.


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## mightyb (Dec 5, 2003)

I like the Yoda nickname too! "Jedi mind tricks"....


BUT, this is my theory for now. The crew was put together to find out what had happened to the original Darma group. The archeologist had actually found the remains of a polar bear, in the desert, with a Darma tag on it.

There must be someone out there who has realized what had happened to the group at Darma and that it was Ben who was responsible for killing them all with the gas! (also why the helicopter crew had that one case with gas masks in it that Jack found)

Also, I like that Syed answered the questions from last week's post..."Why didn't someone just use the phone to call someone from home?" Well, we got Syed who gave it a try, but couldn't figure out how to work the phone. He was able to confirm that the helicopter was operational, go figure....


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## bqmeister (May 13, 2006)

Johnny Dancing, there were two episodes. The first episode was last week's repeat. It was followed by a new episode.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Would that be a C5?
> 
> I gotta say, I needed this episode. It's been a terrible night--my trip to one apartment building to inspect a vandalized door was interrupted by a SWAT raid on an apartment at another of my buildings. It was nice to come home with a bag of Wendys and find on my TiVo Lost at its very finest.


Good heavens!

I hope you had a frosty.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Great, great episode. I'm pleasantly befuddled - just as it should be.

Anyone else try calling the Oceanic Hotline phone number that appeared on-screen during the news report of the crash. I did.



Spoiler



It doesn't say much, yet. Just acknowledges that you've reached the crash hotline, and that daily briefing updates are available to friends and family of the crash victims, and that the phone message will be updated in the future 'as more information becomes available.' Guess I need to try calling back in a few days.



Darn it - I have jury duty tomorrow and no access to a computer during the day. By the time I find my way back to this thread, it will be 400 posts long...


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

My recording cut off early...the last thing I got was Locke holding the gun to Ben and Ben saying "Your instinct was right John, these people are a threat. And if you shoot me you'll never know how great a threat they were. Because I know..." Can someone let me know what happened from here?


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

"Because I know why there here."
James: " And why's that?"
Ben: "Me. They're here for me." 

As close as I can recall. 

Oh, and somebody tell Alex's dumbass boyfriend to stay at least 5 five feet away from Ben at all times, especially if you're carrying a gun.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

appleye1 said:


> Was that actually a station or just a polar bear? I know there was a Dharma symbol but it appeared to me to be on a collar or some sort of harness. I thought it was just something the bear was wearing.
> 
> I didn't see anything that looked like a station.


More specifically, it was a collar with the Hydra station logo from The Island. Was this teh polar bear that Sawyer shot in, what, episode 2?

Something Sunny pointed out to me as teh previews were ending... The Lost splash screen with the island has a city skyline reflected in the water. I'd never seen that before!


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

I freakin' love this show!


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

scottykempf said:


> "Because I know why there here."
> James: " And why's that?"
> Ben: "Me. They're here for me."


James or Locke: "How do you know?"
Ben: "Because I have a man... on their ship."


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Very good episode.

However, I DON'T like that they have a REAL psychic on the show. I like mystical events, unexplained events and ambiguous events, but this bugged me a lot. Great, now we'll just have this guy who can talk to dead people there.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

BOY, this was the episode we've been waiting for. It's a better season premiere than last week's was. That was more transitional than anything.

I keep trying to type but I can't seem to formulate what I want to say. I'll let it digest some more and smeek once 20 pages have appeared.

One thing I do want to say though, to respond to MickeS: we should call the psychic Basil Exposition. You know that's what he's there for.

Greg


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## drumorgan (Jan 11, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Very good episode.
> 
> However, I DON'T like that they have a REAL psychic on the show. I like mystical events, unexplained events and ambiguous events, but this bugged me a lot. Great, now we'll just have this guy who can talk to dead people there.


His name is Miles Strohm
Miles Strohm = Maelstrom
Maelstrom = Powerful Whirlpool
Whirlpool = Washing Machine
Washing Machine = Maytag
Maytag Repairman = Gordon Jump
Gordon Jump = Arthur "Big Guy" Carlson on WKRP
Johnny Fever crossed over to WKRP after being fired for saying "booger" on air at his old station
Crossing Over = John Edwards, who speaks with the dead.

See. Simple, if you know the symbols.


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

Did they just blow my mind? I think they just blew my mind.



MickeS said:


> Very good episode.
> 
> However, I DON'T like that they have a REAL psychic on the show. I like mystical events, unexplained events and ambiguous events, but this bugged me a lot. Great, now we'll just have this guy who can talk to dead people there.


Not the first time they dealt with the mystic. There was the guy who warned Claire about her unborn child. The tattoo lady who did Jack's tattoo. Walt and Desmond. Just off the top of my head. May be more.

Edit: Just checked Lostopedia. I guess the psychic who warned Claire was a fake.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Fan-tastic! But I'm curious why, if flight 815 was LA-bound from Australia, they "found" it -- where? in the Indian Ocean? -- and nobody wondered why.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

laststarfighter said:


> Edit: Just checked Lostopedia. I guess the psychic who warned Claire was a fake.


He was a fake who was surprised and horrified to REALLY become psychic when it came to warning Claire. Watch again.



cmontyburns said:


> Fan-tastic! But I'm curious why, if flight 815 was LA-bound from Australia, they "found" it -- where? in the Indian Ocean? -- and nobody wondered why.


Listen to the surprise in the voice of the guy who discovers it. Sounds like surprise and wonder to me.

Greg


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

This is as good as Lost gets. If only it were longer! The great Brian K. Vaughn had his fingerprints all over this.

Remember-the polar bear that they were excavated had an ancient looking Dharma collar. There's obviously some level of time travel and displacement going on-probally similar to what's happening to Desmond.

Also-more observations. They brought gas masks of course because they knew Ben was behind The Purge. Lt. Daniels is obviously working for Dharma trying to get revenge on Ben and reclaim the island.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

gchance said:


> He was a fake who was surprised and horrified to REALLY become psychic when it came to warning Claire. Watch again.


But that's HIS opinion, or interpretation. It's not presented as a fact. This was.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Interesting that they got the pilot who was supposed to be flying Flight 815 that day. Maybe he had a premonition and didn't take the assignment??


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Great episode. We just keep going deeper and deeper down the hole.


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

gchance said:


> He was a fake who was surprised and horrified to REALLY become psychic when it came to warning Claire. Watch again.


According to Lostopedia:



Spoiler



On the Lost Season 2 DVD Lost Connections there is a previously unseen clip when the navigation moves from Eko to Richard Malkin. Malkin tells Eko that he was paid $16,000 by a couple in Los Angeles to convince a pregnant girl to board a plane (note that this is a deleted scene and, as such, is not necessarily canon).



It's kinda unclear if he was or wasn't.


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

By the way, did I miss the part where they explained why the pilot was banged up? He landed the helicopter safe and sound so why was he injured?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

laststarfighter said:


> By the way, did I miss the part where they explained why the pilot was banged up? He landed the helicopter safe and sound so why was he injured?


Probably just from getting banged around in the cockpit fighting it to the ground.


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

I got the impression that Ben shot the new girl so that Locke and the rest would know that she was wearing a bullet-proof vest....in other words, the helicopter people expected to be shot at. Locke/Sawyer didn't seem to get the message...if, in fact, I'm right about Ben's motivation.


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

1) Charlotte recognized the Dharma polar bear.
2) The Helicopter pilot knew that the body in the pilot's seat on the sunken Oceanic 815 was *not* the pilot.
3) Miles is some kind of psychic, so who knows what secrets he knows.
4) David (?) cries when he sees the news report where they find the wreck of Oceanic 815 and says he "doesn't know why" he's upset about it.
4) Naomi doesn't want to go on the "mission" with these four "amateurs"...

Why did they want Naomi to do this? I think because the other four all know something they shouldn't and that whomever sent Naomi there to get Ben (if that's what the "mission" was) also intended her to kill the other four.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> 1) Charlotte recognized the Dharma polar bear.
> 2) The Helicopter pilot knew that the body in the pilot's seat on the sunken Oceanic 815 was *not* the pilot.
> 3) Miles is some kind of psychic, so who knows what secrets he knows.
> 4) David (?) cries when he sees the news report where they find the wreck of Oceanic 815 and says he "doesn't know why" he's upset about it.
> ...


And remember-Miles has a picture of Ben, but Naomi had a picture of Desmond!


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

When the picture of the pilot popped up on screen, I said "holy cow, what is Matt Parkman doing on the plane?" Looked it up on imdb.com, and sure enough, that's him (i.e., the actor that plays Matt Parkman on Heroes). Of course, I'd trade 100 Matt Parkman's for one Claire Bear. But maybe that's just me.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Fisher STevens was in the credits. Where was he?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Fisher STevens was in the credits. Where was he?


Fisher Stevens was the voice on the other end of the radio, Minkowski.

Greg


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> When the picture of the pilot popped up on screen, I said "holy cow, what is Matt Parkman doing on the plane?" Looked it up on imdb.com, and sure enough, that's him (i.e., the actor that plays Matt Parkman on Heroes). Of course, I'd trade 100 Matt Parkman's for one Claire Bear. But maybe that's just me.


You don't remember him in the pilot? He didn't have the goofy moustache. 

Greg


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Charlotte Staples Lewis?
> 
> CS Lewis?


The physicist's full name is Daniel Farady.
I wonder if that's a nod to Michael Faraday.



MickeS said:


> Very good episode.
> 
> However, I DON'T like that they have a REAL psychic on the show. I like mystical events, unexplained events and ambiguous events, but this bugged me a lot. Great, now we'll just have this guy who can talk to dead people there.


Not a fan of Medium or Ghost Whisperer I take it.



scottykempf said:


> Interesting that they got the pilot who was supposed to be flying Flight 815 that day. Maybe he had a premonition and didn't take the assignment??


Or maybe he was too drunk to fly?

Interesting, very interesting episode.
Although I half expect Sawyer or Jack to say, "Fine, you can have Ben."
But could what happens to Ben be part of the terrible secret that consumes the Oceanic 6?

Oh and Jack, the time to take someone's gun away is before he pulls it on you.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> When the picture of the pilot popped up on screen, I said "holy cow, what is Matt Parkman doing on the plane?" Looked it up on imdb.com, and sure enough, that's him (i.e., the actor that plays Matt Parkman on Heroes). Of course, I'd trade 100 Matt Parkman's for one Claire Bear. But maybe that's just me.


I was actually expecting the picture to be of Greg Grunman, but I didn't think it looked like him at all. Well, at least we now know his name, although I've already forgotten it. Seth something.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BTW, was that Sayid's Nadia assisting Charlotte at the desert dig?


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

spikedavis said:


> And remember-Miles has a picture of Ben, but Naomi had a picture of Desmond!


Yeah good point. I had forgotten about that. I'm still trying to figure out the Penny Widmore angle. Because of the Desmond picture I thought she had sent Naomi and crew to find him, but now it seems like it might be a Dharma revenge mission or something.

This show makes confusing = fun!


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

WOW. So many new layers added this evening. LOVED it.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

The morning after and still only 2 pages? We're losing it. 

I loved this episode - got the chills more than once, which is always a good sign. But sooooo many new questions, which makes me nuts! I don't want this ride to be over, yet at the same time, I want everything answered NOW. I am not a patient person. 

So Miles, the psychic. How did he know the grandson would have money hidden? He obviously went in there knowing about it - so I figure he had an "in" at the police station who knew the kid was into drugs? But it seemed like he didn't know he would actually find it, since he asked for more money, then gave the refund.

I need to actually watch this one again.


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## woolybugger (Nov 12, 2004)

JYoung said:


> BTW, was that Sayid's Nadia assisting Charlotte at the desert dig?


That was my thought. Wasn't she also the one that Charlie saved from the muggers last season?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> I hope you had a frosty.


Oh, yes.

Yes, I did.

A frosty can make even a SWAT team raid seem OK.

Well, not really, but almost. Still have to buy a new door...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jenhudson said:


> So Miles, the psychic. How did he know the grandson would have money hidden? He obviously went in there knowing about it


How so? I didn't see anything that indicated that he knew about the money beforehand. Maybe I'm just dense, but it seemed like he found out when he was talking to the ghost.


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## Indiana627 (Jan 24, 2003)

They are really picking up the pace now. I guess having an end date is finally allowing them to move the story along at a better pace. LOVE IT!

So who went to the time and expense to fake the crash site in the ocean? Who does the guy who sent Naomi on the mission (the same guy who visited Hurley in the psych center in the flash forward last week) work for? This is getting better and better!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

MickeS said:


> How so? I didn't see anything that indicated that he knew about the money beforehand. Maybe I'm just dense, but it seemed like he found out when he was talking to the ghost.


Well he did say, "Where is it?"

It meaning the money.

I don't think I like when Lost ventures into the Supernatural.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Well he did say, "Where is it?"
> 
> It meaning the money.
> 
> I don't think I like when Lost ventures into the Supernatural.


Right. And I thought he meant drugs, I wasn't even thinking money. And I thought the whole psychic thing was a ruse to get in the room to get the drugs back because he was the dealer and I couldn't figure out how that worked into the story.  Guess I was wrong.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Well he did say, "Where is it?"


I saw that as a reply to something the dead kid told him. I might be wrong.
And I agree, I'm not a fan of when Lost throws traditional supernatural elements like this into the mix. Not sure why, but I'm fine with time-travel and the like, but not a big fan of ghosts...

I wonder if Miles will meet Jacob?


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## jr461 (Jul 9, 2004)

I guess that's Walt in the coffin? Was he the grandson?


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Speaking of Jacob - you know Locke doesn't believe Hurley's statement that he meant the plane cabin vs. Jacob's cabin. Why would Hurley hide that? I can see hiding it in front of everyone, but I expected them to have a private conversation about it later (although why I thought that, since no one ever talks to each other...). It has to mean something that both Locke and Hurley can hear/see Jacob. Or that Hurley can see and hear Jacob (right?) - John just heard him (if I am remembering correctly).


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## golfnut-n-nh (Nov 30, 2004)

Vito the TiVo said:


> James or Locke: "How do you know?"
> Ben: "Because I have a man... on their ship."


Is it possible that Ben's man on the freighter is Michael? OK, with Lost anything is possible!  It would be an easy way for Ben to plant a mole.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

I liked Locke's line: "It was Walt. Only.......taller!" LOL


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jenhudson said:


> Why would Hurley hide that?


Because he doesn't want people to think he's crazy? "Hey, guys, there's this cabin that was following me through the woods..."

The interesting piece of information that he has for Locke is that the cabin is a non-localized phenomenon. I wonder if Locke picked up on that?


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## billboard_NE (May 18, 2005)

Near the end when Ben told Locke that Locke needed him because he Knows stuff, Locke asked Ben whats the black smoke. Finally someone asked a question. But of course Ben said he didn't know.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Also remembered this point......

When the psychic guy went to the lady's house....there were pictures on the wall. They looked a lot like a young Eko and his brother the preacher.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

appleye1 said:


> Yeah good point. I had forgotten about that. I'm still trying to figure out the Penny Widmore angle. Because of the Desmond picture I thought she had sent Naomi and crew to find him, but now it seems like it might be a Dharma revenge mission or something.
> 
> This show makes confusing = fun!


Because of her meeting with Matthew Abaddon, I'm guessing that she has a mission that is separate from, and unknown to, the rest of the crew. Because of what Penny said to Charlie, I'm guessing that the Penny angle is (or was, since she's dead) a cover story. Obviously, there's still more to be learned, i.e. why use Penny as the cover story, and where was Penny transmitting from, etc.?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Surprised no one mentioned yet that we got confirmation about Locke's missing kidney having saved his life.


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## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

Great episode!

"How stupid are you Miles?" Got a good laugh out of that one!

Too much going on, I have to watch this again...


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

crazywater said:


> CS Lewis? Of Narnia fame? Correct me if I am wrong since I have not seen or read Narnia but don't the heroes of the story walk through a doorway to another world?
> 
> Hmmm...


Yes - Clive Staples ("Jack") Lewis. But so far they really haven't developed the themes related to the other philosophers/writers after whom the characters are named (Locke, Rousseau, Burke, Hume, etc.). By that I mean I don't expect (I hope at least) that her name isn't a sign that we'll find out that they've literally stepped into another world, a la Narnia. Although actually, as far as themes go, Lewis' works dealt a lot with the Christian concepts of sin, falling from grace and redemption, which we have seen a good bit of in the show already.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

smickola said:


> Great episode!
> 
> "How stupid are you Miles?" Got a good laugh out of that one!
> 
> Too much going on, I have to watch this again...


Yeah, that was good. At first I thought Jack was pulling a bluff like he thought that Mr. Friendly was.


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

Sawyer to Locke - "Did you ask any follow-up questions?" Funny.


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## editivo (Jan 22, 2001)

I'm confused why no one on the show seems to know what no Penny's boat means. Didn't Desmond tell anybody about Penny? And if he didn't tell anybody about Penny then why not tell them now? Am I missing something here?


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Well he did say, "Where is it?"
> 
> It meaning the money.
> 
> I don't think I like when Lost ventures into the Supernatural.


He mentioned that he got some info from "his friend at the police station" so I think when he arrived he knew what kind of shady character the grandson was, so he was making an assumption that there was something there. I don't think he knew what he would find until he looked in the bag.

Z


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

scottykempf said:


> "Because I know why there here."
> James: " And why's that?"
> Ben: "Me. They're here for me."
> 
> ...


More of the last bit.
Ben also names the woman "rescuer" they found and where she's from. He also says there are three other people who were flown in and mentions their names. When asked how he knows this he says he has someone on their ship.


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## bubba1972 (Mar 28, 2005)

So how does a mini vacuum with a spinny thing help with ghost whispering?


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

When the original pilot was shown he puts a toy plane in a fish tank. This got me immediately to think of the plane Kate robbed a banks safe deposit box to get. Not that they are the same plane, but was an answer ever given as to why Kate wanted that plane so bad?


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## jweisler (Apr 18, 2003)

Oceanic 6 -- 6 people fit on that helicopter?


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> Surprised no one mentioned yet that we got confirmation about Locke's missing kidney having saved his life.


The first time Locke has ever been glad he got suckered ...


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

bubba1972 said:


> So how does a mini vacuum with a spinny thing help with ghost whispering?


I wondered the same thing - I assumed it was just something to make the grandma think he was more serious. And something to make noise to cover up him talking.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Very good episode.
> 
> However, I DON'T like that they have a REAL psychic on the show. I like mystical events, unexplained events and ambiguous events, but this bugged me a lot. Great, now we'll just have this guy who can talk to dead people there.


It would be nice if he walked by the graves for Nikki & Paolo so he could tell Jack that they were buried alive. :up:

Great episode.


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

So I guess it wasn't Locke's eye that we saw inside the cabin. If it had been then he wouldnt have been so surprised to hear Hurley mention the cabin.


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## mightyb (Dec 5, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> It would be nice if he walked by the graves for Nikki & Paolo so he could tell Jack that they were buried alive. :up:
> 
> Great episode.


Man...there is just so much you "forget" about this show....


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

jlb said:


> Also remembered this point......
> 
> When the psychic guy went to the lady's house....there were pictures on the wall. They looked a lot like a young Eko and his brother the preacher.


I totally thought that too... I could of sworn that was someone related to Eko, or had pictures of Eko. The drugs made me think that even more. And then someone at work reminded me that Eko and his brother were orphans.

Perhaps it was someone who was donating money to foreign children as a sponsor or some such?

Hopefully someone posts screen captures of it.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jamesbobo said:


> When the original pilot was shown he puts a toy plane in a fish tank. This got me immediately to think of the plane Kate robbed a banks safe deposit box to get. Not that they are the same plane, but was an answer ever given as to why Kate wanted that plane so bad?


Yes.

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Toy_plane


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

speculation...


Spoiler



So from the previews they they talk about the Oceanic Six. Clearly, Juliet can't be one of them. So I think it's safe to assume Sayid would find a way off the island given his resourcefulness and proximity to the helicopter...

I doubt Sayid would be the "he" that Kate has to get back to. I also don't think that Sawyer is destined to get off the island (after tonight's talk from Ben about how he is just a con-man back in real world).

So who is the "he"? My guess is it's Aaron, or possibly Kate's own child if she is pregnant.

Aaron wouldn't make sense as one of the Oceanic 6, so he would be hush-hush. Jack probably learns that Claire is his sister, and knowing that she is separated from her baby maybe what's driving him nuts, whereas Kate has to keep it together for the kid...

Still leaves 2 more to get off... logical choice would be Sun and Jin since I think they stayed with Jacks group. Or possibly Rose and Bernard, though I don't think she wants to leave.

I bet Juliet gets off the island as well, but would not be one of the "6"...


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

scottykempf said:


> I liked Locke's line: "It was Walt. Only.......taller!" LOL


...and then Sawyer continuing to refer to him as "Taller Walt."


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I enjoyed this episode and all the new questions raised and some of the others answered. Or almost answered. 

Locke asking Ben about the smoke monster was one. 

Was it mentioned WHY the specialized talents of a phsyicist, archeologist, a phychic and an over the hill pilot would be needed for a mission that was led by a mercenary an funded by some large company or business entity? (is it dharma or widmore)

Nitpick: Miles surprises Jack on the rocks and has him at gunpoint- but it's not cocked. Even if Miles and Jack are ignorant, Kate would definitely have known, and should have gone for Faraday's gun. (Physicist named Faraday, nice)

The gas mask they found in the jungle? another need for a quarantine?

I will be rewatching this tonight to absorb it some more.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I'm glad people are coming on board with my theory about the dharma folks trying to get a foothold back onto the island. So far everything fits the theory.

I thought it was Naomi and Charlotte together at the dig... shows what I know.

The sunken plane really brings back a lot of questions. What's going to happen when they try to identify the bodies and they do not physically match up? Obviously they were not fully attentive to details since they missed the ring finger stuff. What are the chances that they put in fake teeth?



editivo said:


> I'm confused why no one on the show seems to know what no Penny's boat means. Didn't Desmond tell anybody about Penny? And if he didn't tell anybody about Penny then why not tell them now? Am I missing something here?


They do know. They know it's not penny's boat, and they don't care, because they want to be rescued.



ducker said:


> I totally thought that too... I could of sworn that was someone related to Eko, or had pictures of Eko. The drugs made me think that even more. And then someone at work reminded me that Eko and his brother were orphans.
> 
> Perhaps it was someone who was donating money to foreign children as a sponsor or some such?
> 
> Hopefully someone posts screen captures of it.


Huh? Her child was murdered, probably for drug related reasons. Why would she have pictures of an orphan on the wall but not her own child?


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

JYoung said:


> The physicist's full name is Daniel Farady.
> I wonder if that's a nod to Michael Faraday.


I caught that too. Faraday did work with magnets....


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

When Charlotte asked Claire about Aaron, I was expecting her to ask who the father was, with Claire responding that she was already pregnant when she got on the plane. To which, Charlotte would respond, "How is that possible? Oceanic 815 crashed 4 years ago" (or something like that).

I still wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened at some point.


With a small plane from Nigeria crashing on the island, and a polar bear from the island showing up in Africa, there's some obvious space-time mojo going on. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy who visited Hurley last week, who was revealed as the leader of the "rescue" mission this week was actually grown-up Walt.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Great episode. I like how they introduced these new characters to us vs the way Niki and Paulo were thrown into the mix last season. I think it would be funny for Miles to fill the rest of the crew in on their accidental death of being burried alive.

And I like how its becoming obvious that the writers are listening to the fans complaints.
-You can't kill me...I have answers.
-So then tell me what the smoke monster is!
-It was Walt...but taller for some reason.
-Why didn't you ask any follow-up questions?

There were some great one liners that really just sum up the fans' thoughts through the season.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Nitpick: Miles surprises Jack on the rocks and has him at gunpoint- but it's not cocked. Even if Miles and Jack are ignorant, Kate would definitely have known, and should have gone for Faraday's gun. (Physicist named Faraday, nice)


you don't need the gun cocked to fire it. pulling the trigger does that for you, and then fires off a round. Cocking it just takes care of the first step, so that when you pull the trigger, there's even less delay for the firing.

To be honest, i hate it when shows and movies have a character do that. Why?? What's the point?? Especially in a situation like when Locke had the gun to Ben. It's not like pulling the trigger by itself is not going to accomplish your goal. It's just dramatic effect...


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Yes.
> 
> http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Toy_plane


Thanks for that link. While I remember Kate in the car with her boyfriend I didn't remember the toy plane being there.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

loved this episode. So many questions. 

So maybe Dharma is behind this group? Who faked the crash and put that fake pilot and somewhat decomposed body in the cockpit? WHoever faked it would have to be different than the 'rescue' group, since apparently this discovery of the crash is what instigated them to go on this mission.

Also, big bad dude, Naomi's boss- when he was asking Hugo in last weeks ep about if they're still alive, could he be talking about his team? Or the old Dharma people?????


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

milo99 said:


> you don't need the gun cocked to fire it. pulling the trigger does that for you, and then fires off a round. Cocking it just takes care of the first step, so that when you pull the trigger, there's even less delay for the firing.
> 
> To be honest, i hate it when shows and movies have a character do that. Why?? What's the point?? Especially in a situation like when Locke had the gun to Ben. It's not like pulling the trigger by itself is not going to accomplish your goal. It's just dramatic effect...


Well, it does make it easier to fire, almost ensuring that the gun will go off, whereas when you have to apply pressure to the trigger first, there's a much better chance of it not being fired at all.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Why did the pilot have to call the 800 number to talk to someone at Oceanic? if he supposedly is/was a pilot for them you would think that he would call up some connections, not some random Joe Q Public hotline.

Z


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

zordude said:


> Why did the pilot have to call the 800 number to talk to someone at Oceanic? if he supposedly is/was a pilot for them you would think that he would call up some connections, not some random Joe Q Public hotline.
> 
> Z


You don't think. You see the news story, see the number right there, and call.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

GDG76 said:


> speculation...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I don't think it's impossible that Juliet could be one of the 6. "Oceanic 6" seems to be just a nickname they've been given by the media. We don't know that the nickname isn't used with the knowledge that one of them wasn't actually on the flight, but was rescued along with them from the crash site. But I do think it's unlikely. It would blow a hole in the (highly plausible) theory that the 6 have told everyone that they were the only survivors of the crash.

No way is Kate referring to her own child when she says that she has to get back, "he'll be wondering where I am." The kid would be about 18 months old, tops.

I've been wondering how Jack and Claire could find out about their father, because it seems likely that it would happen someday. I just can't come up with a scenario that would lead to them figuring that out, since Kate doesn't know Christian's name.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jenhudson said:


> Speaking of Jacob - you know Locke doesn't believe Hurley's statement that he meant the plane cabin vs. Jacob's cabin. Why would Hurley hide that? I can see hiding it in front of everyone, but I expected them to have a private conversation about it later (although why I thought that, since no one ever talks to each other...). It has to mean something that both Locke and Hurley can hear/see Jacob. Or that Hurley can see and hear Jacob (right?) - John just heard him (if I am remembering correctly).


And how about Ben's wide eyes when Hurley said that. He's clearly scared that so many people can see the cabin as it jeopardizes his position of power on the island.


TAsunder said:


> The sunken plane really brings back a lot of questions. What's going to happen when they try to identify the bodies and they do not physically match up? Obviously they were not fully attentive to details since they missed the ring finger stuff. What are the chances that they put in fake teeth?


I think they put it in such a deep spot specifically for that purpose. They don't expect that anyone will be able to get to the wreckage to confirm anything. I wouldn't be surprised if that body that showed up on the sub camera was the only one there, just enough to keep up appearances.

Did anyone else find it interesting (odd) that they showed the face of dead Naomi more than once? I'm wondering if that means something. We don't often see close ups of the dead on this show, so I've got to assume that they fact they showed us Naomi a couple of times indicates there's something different going on with her.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jenhudson said:


> You don't think. You see the news story, see the number right there, and call.


Plus that number was probably a better one to call anyway, since it was only for this specific thing.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

getbak said:


> With a small plane from Nigeria crashing on the island, and a polar bear from the island showing up in Africa, there's some obvious space-time mojo going on. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy who visited Hurley last week, who was revealed as the leader of the "rescue" mission this week was actually grown-up Walt.


Do we know that the polar bear was from the island? Isn't it possible that Dharma has (had) stations in other areas as well?


zordude said:


> Why did the pilot have to call the 800 number to talk to someone at Oceanic? if he supposedly is/was a pilot for them you would think that he would call up some connections, not some random Joe Q Public hotline.
> 
> Z


He wasn't calling Oceanic. He was calling the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) which is the government agency that investigates airline crashes.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I decided to do a little wiki reading on C.S. Lewis and I found the following interesting....not that it ties directly or not to Lost, but that I never knew this:



> Media coverage of his death was almost completely overshadowed by news of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, which occurred earlier on the same day, as did the death of Aldous Huxley, author of Brave New World. This coincidence was the inspiration for Peter Kreeft's book Between Heaven and Hell: A Dialog Somewhere Beyond Death with John F. Kennedy, C. S. Lewis, & Aldous Huxley (Kreeft 1982).


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Wow! What an awesome episode!

It may seem obvious, but when were these flashes for the chopper crew (forward or back) happening? Was it between the time of the crash and Present Day Island or or PDI and the future? And was there a flashback sound? I don't remember.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

I found it interesting that in the first scene, where Daniel Faraday started to cry while watching the news footage about 815, that they were *very* careful not to show his wife/girlfriend.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

zordude said:


> Why did the pilot have to call the 800 number to talk to someone at Oceanic? if he supposedly is/was a pilot for them you would think that he would call up some connections, not some random Joe Q Public hotline.
> 
> Z


Perhaps he knew who the supervisor would be.

I wonder if we'll get some more details at some point on that. Simply having been _supposed to be_ the pilot doesn't conclusively mean he would know who actually was. Granted, I don't doubt him, I'm sure he knew who they switched him with.

But what I think is more pertinent is that him knowing the pilot in the video means that there was _another_ Oceanic flight that crashed. I.e., if someone staged the crash, they didn't just go steal some random dead bodies from somewhere and put them in the plane. Well, I guess we only know that for sure about the pilot. That guy must have had some friends or family who was wondering where he was at some point.

Also, Faraday said that rescuing them wasn't their primary mission. But given his reaction to the news story about 815, as well as the pilot's connection, it had to be more than just an afterthought.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

teknikel said:


> Wow! What an awesome episode!
> 
> It may seem obvious, but when were these flashes for the chopper crew (forward or back) happening? Was it between the time of the crash and Present Day Island or or PDI and the future? And was there a flashback sound? I don't remember.


They have to be between crash and PDI, since they show the "team" being assembled for the expedition to the island, which is PDI.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> But what I think is more pertinent is that him knowing the pilot in the video means that there was _another_ Oceanic flight that crashed. I.e., if someone staged the crash, they didn't just go steal some random dead bodies from somewhere and put them in the plane. Well, I guess we only know that for sure about the pilot. That guy must have had some friends or family who was wondering where he was at some point.


It could be a dead body from a morgue or a dummy. There is no proof that there were any other bodies in the wreck. Certainly no need for another plane to have crashed.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Did anyone else find it interesting (odd) that they showed the face of dead Naomi more than once? I'm wondering if that means something. We don't often see close ups of the dead on this show, so I've got to assume that they fact they showed us Naomi a couple of times indicates there's something different going on with her.


Speaking of this, in the first scene where they were carrying her body on the stretcher, as the camera panned across her body and then came up front, it looks like she closes her eyes. I even ran it back a few times to see.

It could have been that the actress just closed her eyes when she thought the camera was far enough away so she wouldn't have to hold her eyes open the entire scene. Sort of like C3PO "shutting down for a while" so Anthony Daniels didn't have to just sit around while Luke got his lightsaber.

Then again, it could have been that she's not really dead, and she's 'tending. You never know about Lost. 

Greg


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Also, Faraday said that rescuing them wasn't their primary mission. But given his reaction to the news story about 815, as well as the pilot's connection, it had to be more than just an afterthought.


but then you had Naomi's boss repeat that there were NO survivors.

Also, didn't Naomi say that last season? I vaguely remember her being surprised about the survivors and saying that there weren't any...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

milo99 said:


> but then you had Naomi's boss repeat that there were NO survivors.


I thought that was an obvious "wink wink" statement by him, and thus her follow up question of, "Just in case there are survivors ..." or something like that.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

MickeS said:


> It could be a dead body from a morgue or a dummy. There is no proof that there were any other bodies in the wreck. Certainly no need for another plane to have crashed.


Oh, right, he just knew that it wasn't his friend.

If there were in fact no other bodies, then I'd have to conclude that whoever found the plane was part of the conspiracy. If they were really salvage guys not involved with it, they would have at least been able to see inside the windows (or even inside the fuselage, I can't recall if it was split apart), right? If they weren't involved, my guess is that whoever planted the plane there would have known it would be found.

My question is wouldn't the airline know who the real pilot was? Is the airline involved? The real pilot must have had some friends or family who thought that he was piloting that flight. Or if they didn't (like it was a last-minute switch) are they wondering why he just happened to disappear the same day an Oceanic flight crashed?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

milo99 said:


> but then you had Naomi's boss repeat that there were NO survivors.
> 
> Also, didn't Naomi say that last season? I vaguely remember her being surprised about the survivors and saying that there weren't any...


It was she who told them about the plane having been found with all the passengers dead.


----------



## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

milo99 said:


> loved this episode. So many questions.
> 
> So maybe Dharma is behind this group? Who faked the crash and put that fake pilot and somewhat decomposed body in the cockpit? WHoever faked it would have to be different than the 'rescue' group, since apparently this discovery of the crash is what instigated them to go on this mission.
> 
> Also, big bad dude, Naomi's boss- when he was asking Hugo in last weeks ep about if they're still alive, could he be talking about his team? Or the old Dharma people?????


This proves what a dummy I am....it didn't even "click" in my mind that the sunken plane was a fake! For some reason, I was thinking the nose section landed in the ocean!


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

milo99 said:


> but then you had Naomi's boss repeat that there were NO survivors.
> 
> Also, didn't Naomi say that last season? I vaguely remember her being surprised about the survivors and saying that there weren't any...


It seemed Lt Daniels was saying there were no survivors as if he was denying the truth. Not sure what why that was important but it seems very important that "There are no survivors".


----------



## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

crowfan said:


> I found it interesting that in the first scene, where Daniel Faraday started to cry while watching the news footage about 815, that they were *very* careful not to show his wife/girlfriend.


Yes! Did anyone recognize the voice?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> My question is wouldn't the airline know who the real pilot was? Is the airline involved? The real pilot must have had some friends or family who thought that he was piloting that flight. Or if they didn't (like it was a last-minute switch) are they wondering why he just happened to disappear the same day an Oceanic flight crashed?


I think you're totally confused about that part. There isn't a third pilot involved or any kind of mystery. The guy we saw last night, Frank Lupadis, was supposed to be piloting that plane, and he was pulled off for some reason. Perhaps he was drunk, perhaps something else. When he was pulled, they replaced him with Seth (LASTNAME), played by Greg Grunberg. The plane crashed.

Fast forward to two months later, the news is showing footage of the wrecked and sunken plane, and they show the close up of what is supposed to be Seth's body. Nobody is supposed to know that it's fake. However, Frank knows it's not really Seth's body because he knows that Seth never takes off his wedding ring. Therefore, he knows that something is fishy, and we know that the crash scene was faked. There isn't a missing third pilot. It's just a body they used for the fake crash site.


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## skywalkr2 (Jun 16, 2003)

7thton said:


> This proves what a dummy I am....it didn't even "click" in my mind that the sunken plane was a fake! For some reason, I was thinking the nose section landed in the ocean!


But we saw the nose section on the island in early season one. When the pilot was found and then killed by the bear.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Fast forward to two months later, the news is showing footage of the wrecked and sunken plane, and they show the close up of what is supposed to be Seth's body. Nobody is supposed to know that it's fake. However, Frank knows it's not really Seth's body because he knows that Seth never takes off his wedding ring. Therefore, he knows that something is fishy, and we know that the crash scene was faked. There isn't a missing third pilot. It's just a body they used for the fake crash site.


well, WE knew it was fake when we saw the front of the plane there- since from the pilot episodes we know that the front was stuck in the tree, where the pilot was eaten by the monster. So that part too- there was NO captain's body left to identify


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

jeff125va said:


> My question is wouldn't the airline know who the real pilot was?


Yes, but the high level of decomposition of the body makes direct visual identification impossible. The missing ring is something only an insider would know, and there should be a ring given the hands are intact and haven't yet been eaten by fish. The company executives probably don't know their pilots that well, and the pilot's wife may not be paying attention to that detail, being in a state of grief (one assumes) and all.


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

7thton said:


> This proves what a dummy I am....it didn't even "click" in my mind that the sunken plane was a fake! For some reason, I was thinking the nose section landed in the ocean!


They showed us (the viewers) the tail section first to make us think the plane was found and the salvagers were nearby. But then when they showed the mid and nose sections we (long time viewers) were to realize it was a fake.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think you're totally confused about that part. There isn't a third pilot involved or any kind of mystery. The guy we saw last night, Frank Lupadis, was supposed to be piloting that plane, and he was pulled off for some reason. Perhaps he was drunk, perhaps something else. When he was pulled, they replaced him with Seth (LASTNAME), played by Greg Grunberg. The plane crashed.
> 
> Fast forward to two months later, the news is showing footage of the wrecked and sunken plane, and they show the close up of what is supposed to be Seth's body. Nobody is supposed to know that it's fake. However, Frank knows it's not really Seth's body because he knows that Seth never takes off his wedding ring. Therefore, he knows that something is fishy, and we know that the crash scene was faked. There isn't a missing third pilot. It's just a body they used for the fake crash site.


Ok, I was sort of thinking that the person in the picture should have been Greg Grunberg, but the moustache must have thrown me off so much that I concluded that it wasn't. (he did have a moustache in the picture, right?)

I think that sort of diminishes the significance of him having been supposed to be the original pilot, at least as far as how he knew that it wasn't Seth's body. I mean if he knew the guy, he knew the guy. However, I'm wondering if the part where he dropped the toy plane into the fish tank and it flipped upside-down while sinking to the bottom was significant? Since the plane was found belly down, did he already suspect some sort of cover-up? It seemed like it had already been news for a day or so that the plane had been found, and that the part about the pilot was like a follow-up detail.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jamesbobo said:


> Thanks for that link. While I remember Kate in the car with her boyfriend I didn't remember the toy plane being there.


Not that anyone was saying it was the same plane as Kate's, but just to confirm that it isn't.

Kate's plane: http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Toy_plane

Frank's plane: 
http://bp1.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/R6wqH8BE6oI/AAAAAAAATak/uwseR0XiWHw/s1600-h/4x02-cap-484.jpg
from http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Ok, I was sort of thinking that the person in the picture should have been Greg Grunberg, but the moustache must have thrown me off so much that I concluded that it wasn't. (he did have a moustache in the picture, right?)
> 
> I think that sort of diminishes the significance of him having been supposed to be the original pilot, at least as far as how he knew that it wasn't Seth's body. I mean if he knew the guy, he knew the guy. However, I'm wondering if the part where he dropped the toy plane into the fish tank and it flipped upside-down while sinking to the bottom was significant? Since the plane was found belly down, did he already suspect some sort of cover-up? It seemed like it had already been news for a day or so that the plane had been found, and that the part about the pilot was like a follow-up detail.


The screen cap does show it's Greg Grunberg.
http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/

He just shaved his moustache after the picture was taken.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

teknikel said:


> They showed us (the viewers) the tail section first to make us think the plane was found and the salvagers were nearby. But then when they showed the mid and nose sections we (long time viewers) were to realize it was a fake.


We know that the tail-section landed very near to shore, so we the viewers knew it was fake immediately.

I think in the Lost universe, there will be no salvage due to the extreme depths of the trench. It will just be marked as a mass grave site and left undisturbed.


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

You can contact ghosts with a Dust Buster?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

tivogurl said:


> Yes, but the high level of decomposition of the body makes direct visual identification impossible.


High level of decomposition? Wha? You mean the bodies have been under the ocean for quite some time?!?!?!



Greg


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Wow. Just wow. Wow.

What an episode...


----------



## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> I know this is a stupid nitpick, but in the picture of Ben going through what like airport security, the CRT monitor had no power chord going into it.


Here is a screen Capture of that. http://bp0.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/R6vf38BE6gI/AAAAAAAATZk/CKjtHhkutUs/s1600-h/ben.jpg

Why was Ben in a modern day setting? These computer are much newer than anything we have seen on the island.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Some thoughts I had from watching:

I thought it was very interesting that the faked plane crash in the Indian Ocean was broken up exactly like the real plane was (i.e. tail section, fuselage and nose) - seems like the fakees knew something about the plane (or it's a coincidence.

I have this random theory that the four newbies to the island were all *supposed* to be on the plane/island somehow. Obviously the pilot was "supposed" to be the pilot of 815, and something just made me wonder if that would be true for anyone else. Maybe that's why Danny-boy was such a cry-baby.

It seems like Dharma is the one that sent these folks to the island. We have been led to believe in the past (I think) that Penny's dad is involved w/ Dharma - maybe that's where Naomi got the picture of Penny and Desmond?

Great episode, can't wait for next week's!


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Did anyone else find it interesting (odd) that they showed the face of dead Naomi more than once? I'm wondering if that means something. We don't often see close ups of the dead on this show, so I've got to assume that they fact they showed us Naomi a couple of times indicates there's something different going on with her.


I think this was just to shut people (fans) up and show that yes, she is, in fact, REALLY dead. Maybe they're tired of the "is Charlie dead/isn't he?" crap from last year.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

nataylor said:


> You can contact ghosts with a Dust Buster?


I thought the dustbuster was turned on to mask any sounds he might make while searching the room.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Has there been a date referenced as to when the supposed wreckage was discovered?


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Has there been a date referenced as to when the supposed wreckage was discovered?


There's a screengrab here of the newspaper, but I can't make out the date.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

hapdrastic said:


> Some thoughts I had from watching:
> 
> I thought it was very interesting that the faked plane crash in the Indian Ocean was broken up exactly like the real plane was (i.e. tail section, fuselage and nose) - seems like the fakees knew something about the plane (or it's a coincidence.
> 
> ...


It could mean that, but why would they bother? The only way it would matter would be if the REAL 815 were discovered, and obviously comparing them would be pretty low on people's lists of concerns.

I don't recall whether we saw Miles learning about the wreckage discovery, but Charlotte also had more than just a passing interest in the news. It's also possible that they just knew someone on it.

That has been theorized about Charles Widmore, partially due to pure conjecture, but also because of the polar bear and buddha pictures with "Namaste" in his office.


----------



## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

teknikel said:


> It seemed Lt Daniels was saying there were no survivors as if he was denying the truth. Not sure what why that was important but it seems very important that "There are no survivors".


Yeah not sure of the signifigance but it did seem important somehow.

Naomi says what if there are survivors, and he said there are no survivors. Then she said well what if there are.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

Okay wild speculation time. My favorite part of LOST!

Given the scene with the archaeological dig, I'm going to propose that the whole show is some sort of Philadelphia Experiment like study. That is to say, everyone or everything coming or going is being shot through some sort of worm hole. It follows, then that nobody is actually traveling anywhere, except through time. The polar bear discovery could be exactly where Sawyer killed it, but in the future, the island is now a dried up desert. And the bear, to begin with, could have been captured/transported in a time where all of the continents were closer together, maybe even during an ice age, and the island was part of a cold continent.


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## Mabes (Jan 12, 2001)

nataylor said:


> You can contact ghosts with a Dust Buster?


Beat me to it. So it really was a dustbuster and not something that looked like one. Thank god, a portable psychic-enabling device would have just been too weird.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I thought the dustbuster was just a homage to the Ghostbusters. 

It wasn't really used for anything but a prop for credibility in the eyes of who he is providing services to...


----------



## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

Another thing I thought was strange was when Daniel Faraday in the forest made a comment regarding how the light is reflecting/refracting correctly for some reason and he's never seen anything like it.

I'm starting to think that the island is an extradimensional entity and may touch several dimensional realities.

Hence why when the Oceanic 6 leave the island everything seems a bit off. I think they came back to a different version of their world.

Maybe Jack wasn't just drunk/drugged when he said his father was alive in the flashforward.

It would also explain why mechanical instruments and electrical signals have weird distortion when entering the islands radius.


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

glumlord said:


> Another thing I thought was strange was when Daniel Faraday in the forest made a comment regarding how the light is reflecting/refracting correctly for some reason and he's never seen anything like it.


Actually, what he said was that it refracted INCORRECTLY, then he said "like it's a little off"


----------



## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

[
I've been wondering how Jack and Claire could find out about their father, because it seems likely that it would happen someday. I just can't come up with a scenario that would lead to them figuring that out, since Kate doesn't know Christian's name.[/QUOTE]

If Claire sees a picture of Jack's dad, she'll realize that Jack's her brother.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Honora said:


> I've been wondering how Jack and Claire could find out about their father, because it seems likely that it would happen someday. I just can't come up with a scenario that would lead to them figuring that out, since Kate doesn't know Christian's name.
> 
> If Claire sees a picture of Jack's dad, she'll realize that Jack's her brother.


He could be going though documents in his father's office and come across her picture.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> I thought the dustbuster was turned on to mask any sounds he might make while searching the room.


Yes, it was.
There was also a question about the picture of the boy on the wall of the house.

I don't think it's an African teenager from Eko's village.
I think it's Sam Jones III of Smallville and ER.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

teknikel said:


> Wow! What an awesome episode!
> 
> It may seem obvious, but when were these flashes for the chopper crew (forward or back) happening? Was it between the time of the crash and Present Day Island or or PDI and the future? And was there a flashback sound? I don't remember.


I'm thinking that some of the flashes for the crew were flash forwards. Based on Naomi's meeting with her boss (Simon?), the four recruits weren't trained for this type of work. But they all seemed overly interested in the recovery of the aircraft. I leaning toward those being flash forwards myself.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

scsiguy72 said:


> Here is a screen Capture of that. http://bp0.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/R6vf38BE6gI/AAAAAAAATZk/CKjtHhkutUs/s1600-h/ben.jpg
> 
> Why was Ben in a modern day setting? These computer are much newer than anything we have seen on the island.


Hasn't been stated that he's never been off the island? Has he said he was born there?


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> Hasn't been stated that he's never been off the island? Has he said he was born there?


Didn't one of the Dharma flashbacks show him and his father arriving on the island, when his father finds out he's going to be a janitor?

Z


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> I'm thinking that some of the flashes for the crew were flash forwards. Based on Naomi's meeting with her boss (Simon?), the four recruits weren't trained for this type of work. But they all seemed overly interested in the recovery of the aircraft. I leaning toward those being flash forwards myself.


At least three of them occurred as the news was coming out about the discovery of the wreckage. I don't recall whether we saw that with Miles. So at least 3 of them were happening at the same time. While we know that Naomi knew more than she let on, it seems highly likely that the discovery of the supposed 815 wreckage that she told Desmond, Hurley, et. al. about was the same discovery we saw last night. I really can't imagine these were flashforwards. And it seemed that Naomi and Abaddon were talking about a separate mission on her part that she was concerned that the rest of the crew would be a hindrance for, and seemed to be hinting that they weren't even in on.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

cwoody222 said:


> Hasn't been stated that he's never been off the island? Has he said he was born there?


Ben is a liar.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

This episode solidified my thought that it's Ben in the coffin. I'd have to think he gets taken off the island by the ship people.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

zordude said:


> Didn't one of the Dharma flashbacks show him and his father arriving on the island, when his father finds out he's going to be a janitor?
> 
> Z


Yes, he wasn't born on the island from what we've seen.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

zordude said:


> Didn't one of the Dharma flashbacks show him and his father arriving on the island, when his father finds out he's going to be a janitor?
> 
> Z


Yes, in "The Man Behind The Curtain", we saw Ben being born about 32 miles from Portland. And he later admitted to The Others that he had been lying about that.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> At least three of them occurred as the news was coming out about the discovery of the wreckage.


But couldn't that news (discovery of wreckage) be a flash forward? Maybe that was the other part of their mission, to stage the crash into the ocean with no survivors.

Maybe I'm just confused.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> But couldn't that news (discovery of wreckage) be a flash forward? Maybe that was the other part of their mission, to stage the crash into the ocean with no survivors.
> 
> Maybe I'm just confused.


Only if Naomi was completely making up what she said about the plane and passengers having been found. It seems more likely that she was referring to what we saw in this episode, but that she has reason to suspect that it was phony.


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

goblue97 said:


> But couldn't that news (discovery of wreckage) be a flash forward? Maybe that was the other part of their mission, to stage the crash into the ocean with no survivors.
> 
> Maybe I'm just confused.


oooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i see what you're saying. that THIS group of people after getting off the island staged it.

The biggest reason i don't think that's the case is because when the drunk pilot saw it, he would've had no reason to call NTSB to tell them that the pilot in the wreckage was the wrong one. He would've known that already, among other things.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

Do we know for sure the crash is fake? The only corraborating evidence of that is the fact that the plane is on the island. But the whole time I was watching this, I was thinking alternate timeline. I didn't make the CSLewis/Narnia connection at the time, but it makes sense.

I know the producers have adamantly denied a purgatory theory... have they shot down alternate timeline?

the fact that the 'rescuers' made it safely against all odds onto the island paralleled the survivors, and it made me think that everyone went through some timewarp a la narnia, and that's how they were able to survive. The fact that they were surprised that there were survivors fits the theory. but the real timeline is still going on, and that's how the plane ended up in the ocean.



glumlord said:


> I'm starting to think that the island is an extradimensional entity and may touch several dimensional realities.
> 
> Hence why when the Oceanic 6 leave the island everything seems a bit off. I think they came back to a different version of their world.
> 
> ...


this is along the lines of what I was thinking.

Also, with the flashbacks this week, It makes sense that it would be flashbacks, but why would the physicist cry about the crash? It's like he knew something like Jack and Hurley know something... which made me think flashforward... but the timeline doesn't fit with the crash/discovery.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

Miles: Ken Leung... he played the same type of angry character in the Sopranos.. he was in a looney bin, Junior's sidekick, and when I saw him, I was confused, i thought he was Hurley's sidekick in the flashback with the looney bin.. but research shows it was the sopranos.


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Ben is a liar.


Which reminds me, when Sayid asked Juliet about Ben, and she said "He's a liar. Yada yada yada, blah blah blah. Or he could be telling the truth."


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

bruinfan said:


> Also, with the flashbacks this week, It makes sense that it would be flashbacks, but why would the physicist cry about the crash? It's like he knew something like Jack and Hurley know something... which made me think flashforward... but the timeline doesn't fit with the crash/discovery.


Also with Charlotte showing up at the dig site with knowledge of Dharma already. These were the things that made me think flash forward. That and an article that someone posted last week where the producer/writer/director or whoever talked about the shift from flashbacks to flash forwards.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

bruinfan said:


> Do we know for sure the crash is fake? The only corraborating evidence of that is the fact that the plane is on the island. But the whole time I was watching this, I was thinking alternate timeline. I didn't make the CSLewis/Narnia connection at the time, but it makes sense.
> 
> I know the producers have adamantly denied a purgatory theory... have they shot down alternate timeline?
> 
> ...


If there really are "alternate timelines" going on, then does "corroborating evidence" have any value whatsoever?

Whatever he is crying about, it's obviously not something his wife is aware of. If, for example, he had a friend on the plane, I'm sure his wife would have known about it.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> Also with Charlotte showing up at the dig site with knowledge of Dharma already. These were the things that made me think flash forward. That and an article that someone posted last week where the producer/writer/director or whoever talked about the shift from flashbacks to flash forwards.


They also said that there would still be some flashbacks. Based on the episode title, I was expecting this one to be about what it was. Also, they didn't mention it, but I was thinking in particular that at some point we'll find out the story with Richard and "The Hostiles."

The Dharma Initiative has been around for decades. Why would that indicate a flash forward?

If these scenes are flash forwards, then why did Naomi say that the plane and passengers had been found?


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> If there really are "alternate timelines" going on, then does "corroborating evidence" have any value whatsoever?


my point... there is no real evidence that the crash is fake.



jeff125va said:


> If these scenes are flash forwards, then why did Naomi say that the plane and passengers had been found?


a mix of forward and backs.. not all forwards.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> Also, with the flashbacks this week, It makes sense that it would be flashbacks, but why would the physicist cry about the crash? It's like he knew something like Jack and Hurley know something... which made me think flashforward... but the timeline doesn't fit with the crash/discovery.


Here, we'll combine our theories. He's crying because...in the alternate timeline he was on the plane. And the pilot saw the man w/out a ring and said it couldn't be [Greg Grunberg's character] - maybe it was actually him in the alternate timeline. I like this theory.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> my point... there is no real evidence that the crash is fake.
> 
> a mix of forward and backs.. not all forwards.


I think you guys are over analyzing again. It makes the most sense if it was all flashbacks. Naomi, upon landing on island, said the plane had been discovered and everyone was dead. The flashes we saw this episode were *as* the plane was discovered, so it clearly happened prior to Naomi, et al arriving on island. Therefore all flashes were flashbacks, QED.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> If these scenes are flash forwards, then why did Naomi say that the plane and passengers had been found?


I don't recall that scene. Who did she say that to? If it was her conversation with her boss then I say _that _scene was a flashback and she was talking about dharma or whoever she is working for finding the island and the losties. Not the same wreckage recovery that is being reported to the public in the news.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

come on, can we please put the alternate timeline theories to rest please? as Jeff125 said, if we allow for those as a possibility, then nothing is relevant. we could argue about practically everything.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> The Dharma Initiative has been around for decades. Why would that indicate a flash forward?


I got the feeling that she hadn't been involved with dharma until she was sent on the mission involving the Losties. Therefore, she wouldn't know anything about them in a flashback.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

Rebecca Mader already seems to be doing better on this show than she ever did on "Justice." Maybe it's easier to act without trying to do a silly American accent. It's a lot hotter, too.


----------



## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

My thoughts on the episode:

The woman in Dan's apartment is most likely his wife - she was wearing a wedding ring.

Minor nitpick: Jack doesn't call out "Hey there" at the end of S04E01, but he does at the beginning of this episode before Dan's reply of, "Are you Jack?"

I guess we now know that it wasn't Locke's eye that peered out the cabin window in the last episode. Otherwise Locke wouldn't have been so surprised at Hurley's knowledge of the cabin. 

What were the gasmasks and bioshock things in the case for?

No need for any passengers on the "fake Flight 815", the plane isn't going to be salvaged, according to the radio report as Miles pulls up to the house in Englewood.

I think that the ghost told Miles that he couldn't leave the house until his Grandmother had the money. The ghost told Miles where the money was, so that miles could give it to her. Miles, finding the large sum of money, decides to pocket it for himself, but feels bad about it, that's why he gave one of the 100's to her. The ghost, thinking that his grandmother now had the money truly was at peace and left the house alone.

Charlotte has been researching/following Dharma, and was interested in the news that 815 was found. Why, and does she know of a connection between 815 and Dharma?

Dan was emotional about the news that the plane was found, why?

Charlotte says that it is "amazing" that Aaron was born on the island does she mean
1. it's amazing that Claire survived the crash to give birth on the island without proper medical care?
2. it's amazing that SOMEONE was born on the island, meaning Charlotte has prior knowledge about what happens to pregnant women on the island?
3. it's amazing that Aaron/Claire didn't get sick, meaning Charlotte has prior knowledge about the "sickness" on the island?

Why does Frank look like The Dude from The Big Lebowski?


----------



## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

stiffi said:


> Given the scene with the archaeological dig, I'm going to propose that the whole show is some sort of Philadelphia Experiment like study..


I am still of the alternate time-line theory...the island is a portal to alternate realities...and did anyone notice the passing comment by Dan about the way sun light is on the island? That has got to be significant...can't remember his words exactly but it struck me as though he was saying it was manufactured...

EDIT: Apparently someone did a few posts after stiffi's post...


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

bruinfan said:


> Miles: Ken Leung... he played the same type of angry character in the Sopranos.. he was in a looney bin, Junior's sidekick, and when I saw him, I was confused, i thought he was Hurley's sidekick in the flashback with the looney bin.. but research shows it was the sopranos.


He was also Kid Omega in X3.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

milo99 said:


> come on, can we please put the alternate timeline theories to rest please? as Jeff125 said, if we allow for those as a possibility, then nothing is relevant. we could argue about practically everything.


Well I read an interview with Matthew Fox recently I believe where he basically said that time travel and alternate dimensions were indeed going to be addressed. Desmond is already proof of that.

Also-in Desmond's time travel episode, he was warned not to change the past and that it was his destiny to go to the island and push the button. And when he didn't, Flight 815 crashed. If Desmond DOES INDEED change the past in an upcoming episode, he could create an alternate timeline where the plane never crashed on the island.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

milo99 said:


> come on, can we please put the alternate timeline theories to rest please? as Jeff125 said, if we allow for those as a possibility, then nothing is relevant. we could argue about practically everything.


Why?

isn't it interesting that the survivors of 815 AND the helicoptor guys get strewn about everywhere, yet they survive a crash that should have zero survivors? wouldn't a time/dimension portal type deal fit that scenario?

why does fake crash site have any more credence than time/dimension portal? I think time travel is not the right term... dimension is better.

and plenty is relevant. I'm sure this has been discussed season 1 on... who can remember all the hundreds of pages of threads in 3 seasons?... but i feel this episode put it out there more than any other.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> I don't recall that scene. Who did she say that to? If it was her conversation with her boss then I say _that _scene was a flashback and she was talking about dharma or whoever she is working for finding the island and the losties. Not the same wreckage recovery that is being reported to the public in the news.


At the very end of "D.O.C." Shortly after she regained consciousness after parachuting onto the island. She was talking to Hurley but Desmond, Charlie and Jin were all nearby.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

bruinfan said:


> Miles: Ken Leung... he played the same type of angry character in the Sopranos.. he was in a looney bin, Junior's sidekick, and when I saw him, I was confused, i thought he was Hurley's sidekick in the flashback with the looney bin.. but research shows it was the sopranos.


Thank you ... I was trying to remember where I'd seen him before.


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## Haps (Nov 30, 2001)

scsiguy72 said:


> Why was Ben in a modern day setting? These computer are much newer than anything we have seen on the island.


Maybe because Ben hasn't been on the island all his life like he claims.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TheMerk said:


> What were the gasmasks and bioshock things in the case for?


Ben gassed all the Dharma folks when he joined "the others".


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> At the very end of "D.O.C." Shortly after she regained consciousness after parachuting onto the island. She was talking to Hurley but Desmond, Charlie and Jin were all nearby.


I'm skeptical of anything said by the "rescuers" to those already on the island.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I've been wondering how Jack and Claire could find out about their father, because it seems likely that it would happen someday. I just can't come up with a scenario that would lead to them figuring that out, since *Kate* doesn't know Christian's name.


Did you mean Claire? I can't think of a reasonable way, either. I think this was mostly done to further the "their pasts all overlap in unexpected ways" meme without necessarily having a real plan to reveal the overlaps to the characters themselves at any point. I don't think that Locke is ever going to realize his connection with Nadia (the real estate thing). I don't think Michael and Claire are ever going to realize that they used the same lawyer's office. I don't think Hurley and Locke are ever going to realize that Hurley owned the box company that Locke worked for. And I don't think Jack and Claire are ever going to realize they are half-siblings. The most obvious way they might discover their connection would be through Ben, I think. Ben seems to know everything about everybody. I'm sure he somehow knows how everyone is connected.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Come on with the alternate timeline theory, at least about the plane crash. They took the effort to show us that the pilot was faked, which is meant to let us know that the whole thing was faked. I love when people purposely ignore flags the show gives us because they are cooking up wild theories.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Has there been a date referenced as to when the supposed wreckage was discovered?


Yes, see next.


goblue97 said:


> I'm thinking that some of the flashes for the crew were flash forwards. Based on Naomi's meeting with her boss (Simon?), the four recruits weren't trained for this type of work. But they all seemed overly interested in the recovery of the aircraft. I leaning toward those being flash forwards myself.


Can't be. During the opening scene, when Daniel Faraday is watching TV and it shows the wreckage, the announcer on the TV is talking about how the plane had crashed about two months before. So that off-island scene was approximately one month prior to the on island scenes from this episode. I would assume that the other off-island scenes focusing on the other "rescue" crew members were all from about the same time.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

milo99 said:


> but then you had Naomi's boss repeat that there were NO survivors.
> 
> Also, didn't Naomi say that last season? I vaguely remember her being surprised about the survivors and saying that there weren't any...


I think she said "WE'RE the survivors..."


----------



## Fedhead (Nov 26, 2004)

Any chance that the Asian guy (Simon?) that organized Naomi's team is the son of the guy in the Dharma videos that were at each station on the island? This would explain why he is assembling the team.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Can't be.


First rule of LOST is that _anything _is possible.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Fedhead said:


> Any chance that the Asian guy (Simon?) that organized Naomi's team is the son of the guy in the Dharma videos that were at each station on the island? This would explain why he is assembling the team.


Well, considering the guy who organized Naomi's team, Matthew Abbadon, was black, I don't think it's all that possible. If you're talking about Miles, the psychic ghost whisperer, sure, that's possible.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> If you're talking about Miles, the psychic ghost whisperer, sure, that's possible.


My GF predicted that based on the previews for this week (the ones that aired last week). I liked the idea at the time but I'm less sold on it now.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

RE: Alternate timelines

This is a transcription of the Official Lost Podcast from 9/20/07, where Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof addressed the question of alternate futures and timelines re: LOST.



Spoiler



*Carlton*: You know, we're not big fans of the idea of multiple futures, and, I think that it kinds of robs the story of its stakes in a certain way, so you know we're working very hard to kind of basically maintain 'the future is the future' and we're not going to go back and sort of recast the future by affecting events in the past and then all of a sudden having a completely different future.

*Damon*: You know, we're not saying that time and space-time and the ability to travel through time is not going to continue to be a motif on the show, but sort of everything we have to say about what the effects of time traveling are is in 'Flashes Before Your Eyes,' specifically in the scene between Desmond and Ms. Hawking. The rules that she basically explains to Desmond are the rules that we basically live by in the writers' room, and that other shows on the air that engage in time travel, whether they be Journeyman or Daybreak or Heroes or whatever. Basically, the future is fixed...
*Carlton*...and not parallel futures...
*Damon*...that's right. You know, Jack and Kate _are_ going to get off the island...And Jack is going to grow a very large beard...
*Carlton*...And buy a RAZR phone.
*Damon*....Yeah, all those things are gonna happen.


----------



## JMikeD (Jun 10, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> I love when people purposely ignore flags the show gives us because they are cooking up wild theories.


Me, too. Its the only reason I keep reading the Lost threads.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> but I was thinking in particular that at some point we'll find out the story with Richard and "The Hostiles."


In the same 09/20/2007 podcast they give you this tidbit on Richard:


Spoiler



When Cane was picked up, the availability of Nestor Carbonell who plays Richard was dramatically cut down, so we may have to wait a bit for a Richard centric episode.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Its not that I believe in parrell dimensions on the show or anything...but I really think the island is living in a sort of different time. Like time moves at a different speed. Like the island is zooming forward in time while life off the island goes a lot slower.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> Come on with the alternate timeline theory, at least about the plane crash. They took the effort to show us that the pilot was faked, which is meant to let us know that the whole thing was faked. I love when people purposely ignore flags the show gives us because they are cooking up wild theories.


Indeed.

If you put all the evidence they have given us together, I think you inevitably arrive at the following conclusions:


Ben's group, whoever they are, have both friends and enemies off the island.
Some powerful group, off the island, either Ben's group's friends or its enemies (or both) know flight 815 crashed on the island and desperately want any searching for the flight to end, because they _don't want the island discovered_. So, they fake a crash site to end the searches. Evidence that some powerful group faked a crash includes:
The goatee'd chopper pilot recognizing that the pilot in the "fake" crash was, in fact, fake.
The lack of surprise on the part of the people from the "freighter" that there are survivors of flight 815 on the island. (Either Locke or Sawyer asked one of them, "Why aren't you the least bit surprised to find us alive.", or something like that.)


This was a very, very intriguing episode. Who are "Ben's people"? Not Dharma, since Ben helped them kill all the Dharma people on the island.

Are the people from the "freighter" Dharma people, who want to re-claim the island? Or, are they yet another faction? Is Penny affiliated with any of them, or someone else?


----------



## flyers088 (Apr 19, 2005)

My biggest problem with the episode last night was the big FU to the fans when Locke asked Ben about the 'smoke monster' and right before Ben was going to answer something happens so he doesn't have to answer. I am sure they have no answer to the question like a lot of the million other questions they have left opened, but to throw it in our faces was just wrong.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

flyers088 said:


> My biggest problem with the episode last night was the big FU to the fans when Locke asked Ben about the 'smoke monster' and right before Ben was going to answer something happens so he doesn't have to answer. I am sure they have no answer to the question like a lot of the million other questions they have left opened, but to throw it in our faces was just wrong.


It boggles my mind that with all the progress the show has made in the past year or two, people still believe they're just "making it up as they go along."

I have a hunch when all is said and done you're going to look back on everything and feel pretty silly.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

flyers088 said:


> My biggest problem with the episode last night was the big FU to the fans when Locke asked Ben about the 'smoke monster' and right before Ben was going to answer something happens so he doesn't have to answer. I am sure they have no answer to the question like a lot of the million other questions they have left opened, but to throw it in our faces was just wrong.


That's not at all what happened. Locke asked and Ben told him flat out that he didn't know *what* the Smoke Monster was.


----------



## flyers088 (Apr 19, 2005)

hapdrastic said:


> That's not at all what happened. Locke asked and Ben told him flat out that he didn't know *what* the Smoke Monster was.


Then after he pointed the gun and him again it seemed he was about to say something but was interrupted.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

flyers088 said:


> My biggest problem with the episode last night was the big FU to the fans when Locke asked Ben about the 'smoke monster' and right before Ben was going to answer something happens so he doesn't have to answer. I am sure they have no answer to the question like a lot of the million other questions they have left opened, but to throw it in our faces was just wrong.


At this point, asking Ben what the smoke monster is would be like asking him anything else. He'll lie in order to get whatever it is he wants. So yes, someone finally asked a good question, but there really was no point. We don't need to hear him answer.

Greg


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I have a hunch when all is said and done you're going to look back on everything and feel pretty silly.


I think I posted that after watching the first episode. I always refer people to this:









Greg


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

flyers088 said:


> My biggest problem with the episode last night was the big FU to the fans when Locke asked Ben about the 'smoke monster' and right before Ben was going to answer something happens so he doesn't have to answer. I am sure they have no answer to the question like a lot of the million other questions they have left opened, but to throw it in our faces was just wrong.


I took at as saying "we will get to that. just not now."

Some people enjoy being indignant. Believe me I know.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

unicorngoddess said:


> Its not that I believe in parrell dimensions on the show or anything...but I really think the island is living in a sort of different time. Like time moves at a different speed. Like the island is zooming forward in time while life off the island goes a lot slower.


Agreed--or the opposite. But that wouldn't explain 2 planes crashed in 2 different places.

Ben wasn't born on the island, but if the picture of him as an adult was taken somewhere else, he must have made side trips like the one Richard and Ethan made to recruit Juliet. Maybe he did something on one of these trips to draw the attention of Widmore or whoever. It partly explains why he didn't just sub over to the mainland to get his back operated on--he's wanted either by lots of people or by a few really powerful people. Either way, not good to be laying in a hospital bed defenseless.

The question is are these people a danger to everyone, or just to Ben? Other than the girl, they seem like pretty decent people to me. Maybe a little crazy and obviously prepared for the worst on the island--never a mistake. Of course, whoever sent them may be worse.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Indiana627 said:


> They are really picking up the pace now. I guess having an end date is finally allowing them to move the story along at a better pace. LOVE IT!
> 
> So who went to the time and expense to fake the crash site in the ocean? Who does the guy who sent Naomi on the mission (the same guy who visited Hurley in the psych center in the flash forward last week) work for? This is getting better and better!


Nobody. The problem is that we have elements of two alternate timelines merging. The pilot *was* the same, but from an alternate timeline where he *didn't* marry his highschool sweetheart.

Or something like that.

I may be smeeking, but were the off-Island scenes flashbacks or flash forwards? For example, when Dan sees the Oceanic 815 crash site on TV and starts crying -- is that before he parachuted onto the Island or after? Or are the flashes neither back nor forward, but to the alternate timeline?


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

scottykempf said:


> I liked Locke's line: "It was Walt. Only.......taller!" LOL


Even funnier, Sawyer's response "What? Like, a giant?" Then everyone, including Locke, looks at him like he's an idiot. Well played!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gchance said:


> I think I posted that after watching the first episode. I always refer people to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that supposed to mean something?


wprager said:


> Nobody. The problem is that we have elements of two alternate timelines merging. The pilot *was* the same, but from an alternate timeline where he *didn't* marry his highschool sweetheart.
> 
> Or something like that.


Oh boy. 


wprager said:


> I may be smeeking, but were the off-Island scenes flashbacks or flash forwards? For example, when Dan sees the Oceanic 815 crash site on TV and starts crying -- is that before he parachuted onto the Island or after? Or are the flashes neither back nor forward, but to the alternate timeline?


Yes, you smeeked. If you listen to the TV announcer during that scene, he says that this is believed to be the crash site of Oceanic 815 which crashed about two months ago. Thus, that flash forward was between the crash and the island scenes we saw last night.


----------



## Rob64 (Aug 27, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Would that be a C5?
> 
> I gotta say, I needed this episode. It's been a terrible night--my trip to one apartment building to inspect a vandalized door was interrupted by a SWAT raid on an apartment at another of my buildings. It was nice to come home with a bag of Wendys and find on my TiVo Lost at its very finest.


Thankyou for reminding me why I sold my apartment building


----------



## Rob64 (Aug 27, 2005)

Did anyone elses Tivo record about 2 minutes into the new show(the name escapes me) on after Lost?? I just wonder if ABC is tricking our tivos into getting us interested in their new show.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

If these 5 people who are there to capture Ben are working for Dharma, why has it taken them many many years to come find Ben?

They should know where the island is, so that's not the problem.

It's been how many years since Ben became leader of the others? At least 4 or 5.

-smak-


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smak said:


> If these 5 people who are there to capture Ben are working for Dharma, why has it taken them many may years to come find Ben?
> 
> They should know where the island is, so that's not the problem.
> 
> -smak-


Clearly the jamming device from the Looking Glass station had something to do with that. The ship knew roughly where the island is, and was therefore in the vicinity, but couldn't find the exact location until the jamming device was disabled.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Honora said:


> [
> I've been wondering how Jack and Claire could find out about their father, because it seems likely that it would happen someday. I just can't come up with a scenario that would lead to them figuring that out, since Kate doesn't know Christian's name.


[/QUOTE]

I don't know, that guy in the cabin looks an awful like Christian Shephard.

-smak-


----------



## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Clearly the jamming device from the Looking Glass station had something to do with that. The ship knew roughly where the island is, and was therefore in the vicinity, but couldn't find the exact location until the jamming device was disabled.


Right, wasn't it said before that people who knew where the island is, couldn't find it again and didn't Ben say before, once you leave you can never get back.
Or do I have that wrong?


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> Is that supposed to mean something?


It's from Babylon 5... another show with a finite ending and story that people didn't think would make it or that the writers were making up along the way.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

skinnyjm said:


> Right, wasn't it said before that people who knew where the island is, couldn't find it again and didn't Ben say before, once you leave you can never get back.
> Or do I have that wrong?


Pretty much the way I remember it all coming down..

Diane


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Is that supposed to mean something?


Babylon 5 was originally set to run for 5 seasons. Among many things that happened, two important ones, one relevant to this discussion, one not:

A) The 5-year arc was planned from the beginning, although did need to be altered using character "backdoors" due to things that couldn't be seen ahead of time. During the course of the run, people online were saying things like, "It's being made up as they go along", while J. Michael Straczynski would post, "No it's not, really, I have it planned out, honestly, I swear." Then...

B) Its network, PTEN, went belly up as the syndication market was disappearing rapidly due to the rise of cable. Babylon 5 was on the brink of cancellation in the 4th Season, so JMS took the rest of the arc storyline and compressed it to end in the 4th Season. As the series progressed through the 4th season, many things that were mentioned in passing and some major ones that weren't but people had forgotten were brought back up, being resolved. If you're familiar with the show, think Vir & a certain Shadow representative. Then at the 11th Hour, TNT picked it up for the 5th and final season.

The frame I posted is the last frame of the 4th season finale of Babylon 5. Trust Lindelof & Cuse, they have it planned out. Faith manages.

Greg


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

milo99 said:


> Also, big bad dude, Naomi's boss- when he was asking Hugo in last weeks ep about if they're still alive, could he be talking about his team? Or the old Dharma people?????


Bingo, I think. When Abbadon asked we thought he meant the survivors of 815, but now it makes more sense that he was talking about his team.

Excluding Paulo and Nikki's swansong, have we ever had multi-character flashbacks before? And they were flashbacks, folks. I thought it was exceedingly obvious, and as Devdogaz points out, the narration clinched it. It was backfill to support what Naomi was telling everyone in S3. (Not to mention you can't do a flashforward with Naomi - she's dead.)

And Jeremy Davies wasn't just a physicist, he was a headcase according to Naomi. Unclear as to why, save the crying at the beginning. I have a little bit of a problem watching Davies, since he's essentially doing the same character from _Solaris_, with the little stops and starts. Maybe its his style.

An interesting episode, and quite the departure in many (good) ways. I also got the feeling of impending series end approaching ...


----------



## woolybugger (Nov 12, 2004)

skinnyjm said:


> Right, wasn't it said before that people who knew where the island is, couldn't find it again and didn't Ben say before, once you leave you can never get back.
> Or do I have that wrong?


I thought Ben and his people could go back and forth until Desmond blew the hatch. Something happened when the sky turned purple or something like that? Maybe I'm mistaken.

ETA: Thinking about it more, I seem to recall Ben saying something to Jack last season about the submarine not being able to come back once it left, because of something that happened with the hatch blowing up? Not that I trust anything Ben says.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

gchance said:


> The frame I posted is the last frame of the 4th season finale of Babylon 5. Trust Lindelof & Cuse, they have it planned out. Faith manages.
> 
> Greg


Technically, it was from the 5th season and series finale of Babylon 5 even though it was shot at the end of the 4th season.



woolybugger said:


> I thought Ben and his people could go back and forth until Desmond blew the hatch. Something happened when the sky turned purple or something like that? Maybe I'm mistaken.
> 
> ETA: Thinking about it more, I seem to recall Ben saying something to Jack last season about the submarine not being able to come back once it left, because of something that happened with the hatch blowing up? Not that I trust anything Ben says.


[Juliet]
Ben is a liar
[/Juliet]


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

It's pretty obvious that they could go back and forth in the submarine. You can't exactly recruit anyone TO the island if you can't get back. And we know that at least Ethan, Richard, and maybe the stewardess from 815 have been back and forth. Not to mention Ben, Roger Workman and Roger's buddy who recruits him, and most likely the Man from Tallahassee.

Ben Could Be Telling The Truth:
Ben said that the sky turned purple and they haven't been able to communicate, but he wasn't the only one to say it (in his defense). So did Mikhail and Mr. Friendly at various times. Mikhail added the most important part - without the beacon working, the sub could never find the island again. It could leave but not come back.

They could ALL be lying, but Mikhail told quite a lot of truth in between bouts of being dead.  I hope the rascal comes back, I liked him.

Ben Could Be Lying:
How does Ben's spy get information to Ben then? Has the freighter been out there since before the hatch blew?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Are the writers trying to tell us something by giving characters names like Abaddon (and the philosophers' names before that), or are they just throwing out red herrings?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Delta13 said:


> Ben Could Be Lying:
> How does Ben's spy get information to Ben then? Has the freighter been out there since before the hatch blew?


I think the freighter has been out there for some time. Or perhaps it's been part of a rotation with other freighters. But Dharma knows roughly where the island is and has had a ship stationed nearby in the event something happens to disable the "cloaking device."


----------



## hmeister (Feb 9, 2008)

Mike Farrington said:


> I know this is a stupid nitpick, but in the picture of Ben going through what like airport security, the CRT monitor had no power chord going into it.


802.11e - Wireless Electricity..... !


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Oh boy.


Care to expand on that a little? I mean, if you're going to roll your eyes at me, at least explain why.

If the sunken wreckage is later shown/explained to be an elaborate hoax, I'll man up and post that I did not suspect that. I promise I won't roll my eyes at you.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

hmeister said:


> 802.11e - Wireless Electricity..... !


I've seen many, many CRT monitors sitting on shelves/ledges that were not plugged in. In fact, with more and more LCDs being brought in to replace the CRTs, you see it more and more all the time.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> Care to expand on that a little? I mean, if you're going to roll your eyes at me, at least explain why.
> 
> If the sunken wreckage is later shown/explained to be an elaborate hoax, I'll man up and post that I did not suspect that. I promise I won't roll my eyes at you.


Maybe you simply haven't read the whole thread. The whole possibility of alternate timelines has been discussed and debunked, and I thought it had been fairly well established that the sunken wreckage was already shown to be an elaborate hoax.

But I guess it's possible that Jae and Sun were just checking each other's bodies for moles.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Maybe you simply haven't read the whole thread. The whole possibility of alternate timelines has been discussed and debunked, and I thought it had been fairly well established that the sunken wreckage was already shown to be an elaborate hoax.
> 
> But I guess it's possible that Jae and Sun were just checking each other's bodies for moles.


You are right -- I had not read the entire thread when I first posted. Hence my "probably smeeking" comment. I have, since then, read the entire thread, including the spoilerized stuff from the podcasts. I believe that what had been debunked (at least from the podcast quote) was


Spoiler



alternate futures


. Now, perhaps that's splitting hairs, but maybe not. My take on what the producers meant was that they will not


Spoiler



use alternate futures as a way to undo something that had been done in the show -- i.e. no Voyager-like wrap up where everyone who was dead in the cold open is alive and well at the end


.

I think there's still some leeway to allow parallel but alternate timelines.


----------



## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Maybe you simply haven't read the whole thread. The whole possibility of alternate timelines has been discussed and debunked, and I thought it had been fairly well established that the sunken wreckage was already shown to be an elaborate hoax.
> 
> But I guess it's possible that Jae and Sun were just checking each other's bodies for moles.


Not so fast there, pardner.

Ya might wanna re-think that whole "the whole possibility of alternate timelines has been discussed and debunked" stance.

There's a rather interesting discussion/theory going on over at the Lost Forum (Lost Forum Thread) concerning this very subject, based on revealing information noticed in this very episode. If you don't want to learn the theory, don't click.

Sounds plausable to me, in some form.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Dharma was making food drops until recently, weren't they? So they knew how to get to the island then. Also, part of the communication problem was the jamming that the girls in the looking glass were doing, which Mikhail didn't know about. So if the freighter is Dharma, they must have arrived fairly recently and couldn't find the island either because of the beacon Mikhail mentioned (we don't know what that is do we?) or because the hatch exploded. 
Penny, on the other hand, couldn't find the island UNTIL the hatch exploded and the guys up north spotted it. But she evidently can't find exactly where it is either. 

So was Ben communicating with his guy on the freighter by the girls turning off the jammer for a minute to open a channel?

I'm sure this will all be clear in the end, but I'm confused big time now.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TiVotion, thanks for the link! I knew there was SOMETHING that felt off with the pictures on the wall when I was watching the show, but I didn't know what (didn't do a direct comparison). I can't believe that this was not intentional:








I don't know that it's evidence of an alternate timeline though - when I was rewatching the scene just now it felt more like it was meant as a result of the "ghost hunting". The top one is shown as Miles is walking up the stairs, the bottom one is after he comes down and says "He's at peace now".
But it's certainly an indication that SOMETHING is going on with the "time space continuum".


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TiVotion said:


> Not so fast there, pardner.
> 
> Ya might wanna re-think that whole "the whole possibility of alternate timelines has been discussed and debunked" stance.
> 
> ...


Very interesting. I hadn't caught that. It will be interesting to see how that is explained.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

That's interesting about the changing photos.

As said, it doesn't make any sense that this is a simple continuity error, since you would assume they would have shot all of the scenes in the house in a short time frame and wouldn't have needed to redress the set.

Also, if you pause it just after Miles walks in and the grandmother tells him which room to go to, there's an advertisement for "Photo Restoration" on the bulletin board behind them. I have no idea what that would mean, but it's interesting if there was in fact some photo manipulation going on.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Dharma was making food drops until recently, weren't they? So they knew how to get to the island then. Also, part of the communication problem was the jamming that the girls in the looking glass were doing, which Mikhail didn't know about. So if the freighter is Dharma, they must have arrived fairly recently and couldn't find the island either because of the beacon Mikhail mentioned (we don't know what that is do we?) or because the hatch exploded.
> Penny, on the other hand, couldn't find the island UNTIL the hatch exploded and the guys up north spotted it. But she evidently can't find exactly where it is either.
> 
> So was Ben communicating with his guy on the freighter by the girls turning off the jammer for a minute to open a channel?
> ...


Possibly, or taking the submarine out for a rendezvous.

Don't forget though, even with the jamming off, the island is still hard to find.
You think it's just coincedence that Frank's chopper was struck by lightning?


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> That's not at all what happened. Locke asked and Ben told him flat out that he didn't know *what* the Smoke Monster was.


Correct. Ben didn't evade the question at all.

Locke said (best I can remember): "What's the monster?"
[Pause, Ben looks confused.]
Locke: "That smoke thing!"
Ben (clearly immediately now knowing what Locke is talking about): "I don't know."

Even though Ben lies his butt off on a regular basis, my gut tells me he's being truthful in this case.

Last season, we learned from Juliet that Ben's people use that sonic field to keep the Smoke Monster out of their community. She implied that they, indeed, don't know what it is, but they know that it is dangerous.


----------



## whitmans77 (Mar 6, 2003)

any ideas on where the Richard and the group that went to the temple are up to? or how they will play into this?i wonder what they are staging?oh yeah have we forgotten that richard doesnt age? Oh i love this show......


----------



## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

jenhudson said:


> ONLY 6 POSTS?! Slackers.
> 
> Wow, just freaking wow.
> 
> Must digest.


Must be nice. For reasons not clear to me , our guide data didn't have the right info so it didn't record. They are planning to rerun it next week before the next one so I set that to record, now I just need to not read any more of the thread.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

whitmans77 said:


> any ideas on where the Richard and the group that went to the temple are up to? or how they will play into this?i wonder what they are staging?oh yeah have we forgotten that richard doesnt age? Oh i love this show......


I think I read somewhere (may have been earlier in this thread) that because Richard is on Cane, he's not going to be available much for this season of LOST and therefore, we probably won't get too many stories about the other Others.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think the freighter has been out there for some time. Or perhaps it's been part of a rotation with other freighters. But Dharma knows roughly where the island is and has had a ship stationed nearby in the event something happens to disable the "cloaking device."


Like maybe Captain Kirk, wearing some bad ears?  

That's what I think too, I'm just trying to get a handle on the timeline of when the team was assembled and probably flown out to the freighter. It would appear that was after the failsafe was turned, which killed the communications. Hmm ... I'm sure it will all be explained though.

Starts to make sense why Ben didn't want to go off island for his surgery, and why he wouldn't let Juliet go home. Things were too hot outside. (Though letting Michael go -assuming Michael went _anywhere_ - doesn't quite fit, but hey.)


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, see next.
> 
> Can't be. During the opening scene, when Daniel Faraday is watching TV and it shows the wreckage, the announcer on the TV is talking about how the plane had crashed about two months before. So that off-island scene was approximately one month prior to the on island scenes from this episode. I would assume that the other off-island scenes focusing on the other "rescue" crew members were all from about the same time.


Hmm. I was thinking maybe the ROV search was related to the tsunami, given the location. But that would make it more than 3 months after the crash of 815.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I need to post a retraction. I've posted a couple of times here that the TV news coverage of the sunken wreckage said that the wreckage was found two months after the crash. However, I've gone back and listened to it and it says the ship has been out there for two months searching for sunken treasure, but doesn't say anything about the timeline relative to the crash of 815. Sorry if I've misled anyone.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

and the theory in the link posted earlier by TiVotion relies on the same time line error.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cherry ghost said:


> and the theory in the link posted earlier by TiVotion relies on the same time line error.


Well, it doesn't _rely _on it--just because that particular piece of evidence does not apply does not mean that the timeline isn't valid. It just means that there's no evidence one way or the other.

But the timeline in the theory is still perfectly consistent with everything we know.


----------



## EMoMoney (Oct 30, 2001)

scottykempf said:


> Interesting that they got the pilot who was supposed to be flying Flight 815 that day. Maybe he had a premonition and didn't take the assignment??


I suspect he was probably found too intoxicated to fly, so he was replaced.


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

EMoMoney said:


> I suspect he was probably found too intoxicated to fly, so he was replaced.


I thought that when you're too drunk to operate your vehicle, your character is killed off?


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Are the writers trying to tell us something by giving characters names like Abaddon (and the philosophers' names before that), or are they just throwing out red herrings?


Yes.


----------



## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Must be nice. For reasons not clear to me , our guide data didn't have the right info so it didn't record. They are planning to rerun it next week before the next one so I set that to record, now I just need to not read any more of the thread.


You can stream Lost episodes from ABC.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> I thought that when you're too drunk to operate your vehicle, your character is killed off?


Whoa dude! You should spoiler that!


----------



## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I do think that LOST sometimes intentionally misleads us or throws red herrings because they know that the Internet community will pick apart every single frame of the show, every word of dialog, etc. 

This time, though, the "pictures on the wall / alternate timeline" theory would be the first scenario that I've seen thus far that actually seems to adhere to most of the storyline elements we've seen. I really believe this is the direction the show is going.

Over at the Lost forum, people have really pointed out some compelling arguments for this theory. This is going to be grossly simplified when I outline it, but so many scenes from this episode were put right out there in front of us:

Miles goes up the stairs...we get a real good look at the pictures in the frames on the wall. When Miles is upstairs, there's a strange hue of light above his head at some point. While he's upstairs, the theory is that Desmond (back on the island) turns the failsafe key (the timeline seems to support this). Somehow, some way, that changes time, alters time, merges time...or something. Miles comes back down the stairs, and lo and behold, the pictures on the wall have changed. Something has gone slightly askew in the time that Miles was upstairs. Throw on top of that the close up shot of Miles turning the key in the ignition in his car...a nod to Desmond turning the key on the island...and the fact that the clock in his car and the clock upstairs are off (admittedly, the weakest element of the theory, but who knows) and I really think that we're onto something here.

These scenes were framed intentionally, I believe - and the set decoration was intentional.

I actually prefer the Lost discussions here on TCF over those on the Lost forum, because generally speaking, the discussions here are more intelligent and insightful. The LF are, quite frankly, less coherent, and just all over the place. But someone over there really came up with a gem with this idea.

Oh, and PS. The more I think about this, the more other elements seem to fit this theory. Remember Charlie appearing to Hurley and saying, "I am dead, but I am also here" (or something to that effect...his buddy in the yard also saw Charlie)..Jack (in the flash forward) saying "bring my father down here and if he's drunker than me..." (so maybe this wasn't to mislead us; maybe his father WAS alive...in this "instance" of time...his body wasn't in the casket, after all). Call it an alternative timeline, or two planes of existence that have merged, or something. But something's definately messed up with reality, and time, at least as the Lostees know it.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

scsiguy72 said:


> Here is a screen Capture of that. http://bp0.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/R6vf38BE6gI/AAAAAAAATZk/CKjtHhkutUs/s1600-h/ben.jpg
> 
> Why was Ben in a modern day setting? These computer are much newer than anything we have seen on the island.


Why is it so unusual for a CRT to not have any cables? Could have been a spare just sitting around...


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bruinfan said:


> Do we know for sure the crash is fake?...


That was my impression, too. Not fake....just another timeline.


milo99 said:


> come on, can we please put the alternate timeline theories to rest please?...


No, we can't


----------



## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

Regarding the different frames for the photo's... Maybe after the first shot they were accidently knocked off the wall and broke. Since they were in a hurry to film due to impending strike they couldn't get a frame that looked like the old one so they just used a different one?

Also the second camera glance on the photo I want to think was Miles looking at the photo, feeling guilty that he was taking money he found, after all her son was murdered, and thus why he refunded $100.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> Not so fast there, pardner.
> 
> Ya might wanna re-think that whole "the whole possibility of alternate timelines has been discussed and debunked" stance.
> 
> ...


I've been behind in this thread for two days now, and I paused reading when I got to this post. I've since been behind on THAT thread on that forum.. A lot of the people over there aren't as up on things as the people here, but I do think that at least what was witnessed (re: pics) was damned interesting. I recommend anyone that hasn't clicked the above link do so. (Of course, watch this be a smeek in that people have been talking about it in THIS thread for days, but I had to post this now).

Piling up the things I wanna say.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

TiVotion said:


> Miles goes up the stairs...we get a real good look at the pictures in the frames on the wall. When Miles is upstairs, there's a strange hue of light above his head at some point. While he's upstairs, the theory is that Desmond (back on the island) turns the failsafe key (the timeline seems to support this). Somehow, some way, that changes time, alters time, merges time...or something. Miles comes back down the stairs, and lo and behold, the pictures on the wall have changed. Something has gone slightly askew in the time that Miles was upstairs. Throw on top of that the close up shot of Miles turning the key in the ignition in his car...a nod to Desmond turning the key on the island...and the fact that the clock in his car and the clock upstairs are off (admittedly, the weakest element of the theory, but who knows) and I really think that we're onto something here.


I have just watched this scene in HD 3 times in a row and I have seen no evidence of a strange hue of light above Miles's head while he is upstairs. The closest thing I've found is some lens flare from the angle of the sun coming in the window behind him. But, it is very obviously lens flare and is not a strange hue of light at all.

I am not arguing with any of the rest of what you are saying though. Every picture that we see on that wall is changed. For most of them, both the photos and the frames are changed. For the one picture, it is the same picture just in a different frame. And, as far as I can tell, all of the rest of the decorations in that room stay the same before and after he goes upstairs so it does seem intentional for the pictures to be changed.


----------



## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

Has anyone gotten a fix yet on the time-frame of the 4 boat-people's episodes back on the mainland? We know that it was after the crash, but how long after? It wasn't two months, as far as I can tell (that was how long the Christiana-1 salvage crew was looking in that area for wrecks, not Oceanic). There isn't any other indication of a timeline that I can tell. Anyone figured that out yet? Or, is it mainly irrelevant?


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

The pictures thing is too noticeable to be a mistake. 

Someone either in this thread, or the one linked, mentioned that the text added to show location was new. I don't think that's true. I believe (I'm going on memory) the only other time they did that was at the end of Season 2 when Desmond turned the key. We got one last flashback to off the island when they showed Antarctica (I think) with the 2 guys who immediately called Penny to let her know they "found" something. 

This would lend support to the idea that each flashback shown in the episode took place in a time period encompassing Desmond turning the key on the island.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

jwehman said:


> Has anyone gotten a fix yet on the time-frame of the 4 boat-people's episodes back on the mainland? We know that it was after the crash, but how long after? It wasn't two months, as far as I can tell (that was how long the Christiana-1 salvage crew was looking in that area for wrecks, not Oceanic). There isn't any other indication of a timeline that I can tell. Anyone figured that out yet? Or, is it mainly irrelevant?


I was posting my previous post when this popped up. I think my post helps answer this.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Phew. Caught up, and rewatched the episode. Ok, my thoughts.

First, absolutely loved the episode. So good.

* Congrats to the poster from last week that predicted (in jest or not) that "Tell my sister I love her" was a code.

* Loved the look on Ben's face (and Locke's too, but especially Ben's) during the whole Hurley cabin discussion.

* WHY did they just leave the gas masks in that metal box? I know they were excited because they found Miles' signal on the phone, but.. I mean.. those are gas masks.. That's gotta imply that there's either a need for them, or that there _will_ be a need for them.. Jack should have at least grabbed two of 'em!

* This one seems obvious but it's something we certainly didn't know seasons ago.. GPS WORKS ON THE ISLAND! Again, some of these will seem already answered now, but that means:
* They're on earth
* They're not in the far distant past (and get to/from the island via time wormhole or anything)

We'd had lots of theories in the past about the island being somewhere (or somewhen) else with a gateway underwater or whatever that connected us there.. Nope - where they are has GPS satellites flying overhead. (wild crazy theory disclaimer: this doesn't rule out a holodeck-like simulation, because the phones would be holodeck creations too, and would be rigged to simulate GPS.. but they're not on a holodeck). GPS works.

* Congrats to whomever first guessed that maybe Locke was shot where his kidney used to be.

* Unusual episode in that we saw 4 people's flashbacks.. (actually, 5). What's more unusual is that we saw Naomi's, which leads to a theory of mine. First, let's start with what's wrong with her flashback.. we see it while she's lying dead on a stretcher.. seeing the flashback of a dead person. This is particularly interesting because in the DVD commentary for Expose from Season 3, the writers actually say something like "Now this is interesting here, because many viewers saw this flashback and thought that we had broken one of our rules here, by showing the flashback of a dead person.. but only by the end of the episode do they realize that we didn't break the rule, since she was still alive" (paraphrasing). For them to say that, and then explicitly violate it here, would be wildly inconsistent. So I think Naomi's coming back, or is already back. I'll save my theory for the next post (see below).

* Just data: radio said that 324 passengers were on the plane.

* Loved the line that was something like "Carlllllll.... If you're going to sleep with my daughter, please, call me Ben". But I wanna know what Ben was going to tell Alex.. (Carl interrupted him)

* AWESOME scene which involved only the slightest physical work: Sawyer's threatening to kill Ben, Locke says "execute him right here, in front of his daughter.......", Sawyer looks around, and through the crowd you see Hurley just barely perceptibly shake his head with this "no dude" look.

* Took down the words Dan said in the jungle: "The light.. It's strange out here, isn't it? It.. It's kind of like it doesn't.. it doesn't scatter quite right..".. The fact that they had Kate look at him like "yeah whatever" just makes it seem even more like a highly significant line.. That'd certainly happen in a simulation. And they did just bring in the main character from Lawnmower Man (the pilot).. but they're not in a simulation. I think, though, that this was one of many hints in the episode.. See below.

* If you were on an island, stranded, with limited supplies, would you REALLY fire three precious irreplaceable bullets just to let Miles and Dan know you were there, instead of screaming "HANDS UP!!!", or maybe firing just one?

* The logo on the bear collar had a bunch of snake heads on it. Haven't looked up what station that's supposed to be yet.. is it the Orchid? (is this known info yet, which station that icon is?)

* "I saw a cow"

* Best line of the episode has to be: Sawyer: "Sure, who are we to argue with taller-ghost-Walt?" 

* Data: Helicopter id is N842M

* I KNOW I remember that white vest that Ben's wearing from somewhere, but I can't remember where. Anyone know? I thought it was "Further Instructions" where Locke made a sweat hut and Boone pushed him through the airport hallucination, and he saw Ben with a metal detector, but I found a screencap and it wasn't anything like it.

* I thought the same thing as someone else here who posted that maybe the smoke monster realized that the pilot (in the pilot) wasn't "supposed to be there", and that's why it went after him (instead of this new pilot who was supposed to be the pilot that day). (I wonder if Jack's dad drank with him at and of the bars in Australia?) What I also thought was an interesting side note to this (based entirely on memory - correct me if I'm wrong) was that I think Damon told us in DVD comments about how Jack was initially not supposed to be on the show past the pilot episode, but the test audience liked him.. The interesting part there? I think he told us that whole story _during the scene with the pilot in the cockpit during the pilot_.. (I imagined the possibility that while recording the DVD comments, they came to the pilot scene, Damon remembered some internal plan they've made that the pilot wasn't "supposed to be there", and that reminded him to tell us the story about how Jack's character wasn't supposed to be there past the pilot. Eh, maybe that's a stretch, but Damon if you're reading this, I called it. 

* *Hints* in the episode about the picture-frame theory above, and the idea that Miles was upstairs during the time that Desmond turned the failsafe key and jumped back (if it turns out we're still 2 months out from the crash, not relying on the salvage team's search time):
1) They show a shot of Miles turning the key to his car
2) In the pilot's flashback, he's focused on a wedding ring (think Desmond's talk with Ms. Hawking, ring lady, where she didn't want to give him a wedding ring).. I came up with this one.
3) (Maybe, but I'm not convinced), the sparking color-changing sunlight coming through the window above Miles' head as he talks to the ghost (which becomes purple at one point) is a hint about the sky turning purple when Desmond turns the key. That theory I read elsewhere, and alone it's not _that_ obvious to see while watching the scene, but what makes me put it on the list is the possible _hint of a hint_, where Dan on the island talks about light not scattering quite right.. I think that Dan's reference was at least in part a reference to the light above Miles' head, to make us think about the purple sky..
(basically I think the writers were hoping someone would notice the picture frame change, and they put in lots of hints)

* Here's something I haven't quite gotten my head around yet (not necessarily related to this episode aside from the Desmond part above)..
Charlie was supposed to die, but Desmond saved him (multiple times). The universe kept trying to course-correct - but apparently he was "supposed to" die during the lightning, or drowning (I forget which came first). But then later, after at least three saves from Desmond, Charlie goes on to do something quite significant - he turns off the jamming signal, allowing other people onto the island (and for the island to be seen).. and it appears that of the people on the island, _only_ Charlie could have been able to do this (since he was a musician and the code was designed by a musician). Without Charlie defying death 3 or more times, the pilot would never make it to the island. Where's the course correction there? I mean, if we go with the idea that these four new characters belong on the island too - that everyone is here for a purpose - then how would they have ever reached here without Charlie? Yet Charlie was "supposed" to die? And Ms. Hawking said that the only significant thing Desmond would ever really do would be to press the button.. is that wrong now?

* The part in the picture frame theory about clocks being significant is garbage, from what I can tell, because it doesn't look like the second hand on the clock in the dead kid's room is moving, so I don't believe it's powered. (I disliked most of the theory on the other site, btw.. loved the discovery that the picture frames changed, and loved the idea that Desmond's key turn might have happened around then.. just didn't like the rest of the stuff the people on that forum piled onto it, including this clock bit).

* Another interesting possible hint: Charlotte, when shot, says "vest".. Locke is confused, then figures out she means she's wearing a bulletproof vest. However, there's another vest in the episode.. the white one that Ben is wearing in the picture that Miles is carrying around with him.. Again, I swear I've seen that vest before.. Argh..

* Misc details in case we search for them someday: on the phone, Dan was id 5771, Miles was 9811, didn't see what the others were clearly. The phone shows a North indicator (compasses broken, they didn't have true north before, for whatever that's worth now). Other boring HD details: phone buttons are Settings, Home Clock, LOCATE CHANNEL, GPS SIGNAL, CONNECT (their caps, not mine, all caps on the bottom row). The Connect icon looked almost like the Food icon on Sawyer's button in the cage  , but it's probably just signal bars).

Great episode.. Ok, putting my new theory in the next post.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, first of all, if you haven't seen it, here is the Orchid Orientation Film that is on the Season 3 DVD:





(linked to from
http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Orchid#Orientation_video
)

Watch that before reading on.. I wasn't going to spoiler tag this stuff since it's from last season's DVD, but since it's meant to be a lead-in to season 4, maybe I should:



Spoiler



So, in the video, it seems clear we're supposed to figure out that either the rabbit is about to shift in time-and-space, or that it was just magically copied and the copy transported - but he DID say 'shift'. He's afraid of them touching each other, which seems more like a time shift idea too - who knows what happens if the older one scratches/kills the younger one, or maybe just them touching is bad, etc.

"When did you set the shift? Negative twenty. How long? Nine minutes, but we're still learning how .. Why's that still running? [(the camera)]".. The alarm is counting down from 10 to 1, but if you look at the time of the video, it's like it's counting down from 20 as soon as the rabbit appeared and hit the white cup/whatever off the shelf, with the first 10 seconds of the countdown (20-11) silent. The video stops before we reach one, with the guy still holding the rabbit. One could guess that when it gets to 0, the rabbit in his hands might disappear (maybe it was set to travel back 20 seconds).

But, that's not my theory.. I think that maybe, they can duplicate things (meat), but not consciousness.. Maybe when they actually send the rabbit back (at 0), the rabbit in his hands dies.. its body stays there, dead meat, and a new body is copied at the destination (20 seconds ago, up on the shelf), and the consciousness/entity goes with the new body.

(For a gruesome example, imagine if every time Kirk stepped through a transporter, he left a corpse behind, yet still beamed to his destination.. except there's travel through time as well).

If that's possible (and they're actually able to remotely transport the rabbit from within the guy's hands back 20 seconds to the top of the shelf, even by accident), then maybe Naomi is alive...

..because that sure sounds like Naomi on the other end of the radio when they're at the helicopter.

Maybe Naomi, about to die, with the radio in hand (significant?), was deliberately transported back to the freighter, leaving her injured body on the island to die. She appears on the freighter in her new copied body, perhaps still injured then healed by a doctor, or perhaps not injured at all. Either way, she's able to answer that phone.

You could use that to take Charlie out of his body, leave a corpse in the looking glass station, have a new Charlie body appears somewhere, and he's in it, if you wanted (though Charlie's a bad example, since Hurley wishes him away).

So maybe Mikhail is a better example - he's lived through a bunch of things.. maybe there are corpses of his on the bottom of the ocean floor beneath the looking glass, and near the fence wall.

Maybe Richard every so often, keeping him young?

If you wanted to fake a plane crash, and you had a willing participant who was a pilot, you could put him in a plane, have him fly it to where he's going to crash it, then transport/copy him out right before it crashes.. You'd still have a body, and a plane.

For that matter, if a plane was flying overhead, you could copy everyone out of it and place the copies on the beach, in the water, and in the bamboo.. their old-body meat corpses could still fly away and crash somewhere..

Or, copy the entire plane, with all of its inhabitants, from where it was in the Indian Ocean to where the island was! The old, "real" plane crashes (in this case, intact), even if the pilot decided not to wear his wedding ring.. The new copy, complete with actual conscious humans, gets put wherever and whenever you want it - like up in the air over the island.

Personally, I think the idea that the plane underwater is fake/planted makes total sense.. but this would make sense too, and we could come to this alternate realization after having believed the "they faked it" story for a whole season or two).


But the real problem this answers is this: how were we seeing a Naomi flashback with her dead on the stretcher?, without the writers breaking their own rules about having flashbacks only for living people?

If you think all of that sounds crazy, go back and watch the video again.

Anyway, just a theory.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

One or two other uses of that theory:



Spoiler



What if the smoke monster, when it came to get Eko and the pilot, strangely transported them away somewhere to save them, instead of killing them? Yeah, it was pretty gruesome in both cases, but maybe that's to create the illusion of a "monster".. it transports/copies them somewhere/somewhen, then takes the meat corpse leftovers and smashes them against trees and throws them in the air etc for effect. Meanwhile, they're safely transported somewhere else.

Ok, I dunno how much I believe that one, but it's still an idea. 

Whoa, what if that's how they have to get onto or off of the island? They had to drug Juliette before she could come over.. maybe they teleport her to the island, have to deal with a Juliette corpse in Portland, and therefore aren't crazy about people coming and going, as it results in a lot of corpses to explain.  Maybe the Oceanic Six make it off the island not by helicopter, but by teleportation/death. Maybe you lose something during the journey?

Maybe Jacob did this to Jack's dad? And to the horse?



..and a webisode spoiler (spoiled for two reasons - the above spoiler info, plus an extra layer for people who haven't watched the webisodes):



Spoiler



Maybe Walt, with all of those birds dead at his window, isn't some sick kid that's killing birds, but rather transporting them inside his room from the outside window? There'd be birds inside the room, and corpses outside. Or he could be sending them elsewhere..


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Just had another thought on that Orchid Orientation Film..
(If one of the moderators wants to give me a ruling on whether info regarding that new clip from the Season 3 DVD needs spoiler tags or not, I'll go back and edit my past few posts and this one to remove them)



Spoiler



If I'm wrong with my theory above and the Orchid Station's work actually generates a new copy of something/someone _without killing the original_ (that is, if the bunny doesn't die), then I'd like to make the guess that Marvin Candle and Edgar Hallowax etc aren't just cloak-and-dagger different names for the same scientist, but rather individual names for multiple copies made of the same scientist.. Maybe the copy working in the Orchid station was copied/transported from the one working in the Swan station, which is why he's wearing a jacket with a Swan logo?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

The problem I have with the whole alternate timelines explanation for everything is that it allows any plot hole to be explained away by saying that it occurred in any one of an infinite number of alternate timelines. It's about as lazy as saying that an entire season of a show was someone's dream. I'm not saying that it couldn't be correct, but the whole idea is based on pure conjecture at this point. I mean, someone _could_ have predicted after the first episode that "The Monster" was a cloud of black smoke, but would that have really been a well thought-out analysis or just a wild guess that just happened to turn out to be correct? I have yet to see a single coherent explanation as to why alternate timelines would be the _only_ explanation for any given phenomenon that has occurred in the show; just a bunch of "that could be in an alternate timeline" explanations for individual things. Well, yeah, they all could. Every episode could be a different timeline. There's no proving or disproving any of it.

I just don't get why people are so anxious to jump to the most unlikely explanation, when so many of the details in this show have been so neatly tied together over multiple seasons. What good is it that after 60-some episodes, we finally found out how Locke lost the use of his legs, if there's still the possibility that what we saw occurred in an "alternate timeline" where Locke didn't even take the trip to Australia?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

danterner said:


> Did you mean Claire? I can't think of a reasonable way, either. I think this was mostly done to further the "their pasts all overlap in unexpected ways" meme without necessarily having a real plan to reveal the overlaps to the characters themselves at any point. I don't think that Locke is ever going to realize his connection with Nadia (the real estate thing). I don't think Michael and Claire are ever going to realize that they used the same lawyer's office. I don't think Hurley and Locke are ever going to realize that Hurley owned the box company that Locke worked for. And I don't think Jack and Claire are ever going to realize they are half-siblings. The most obvious way they might discover their connection would be through Ben, I think. Ben seems to know everything about everybody. I'm sure he somehow knows how everyone is connected.


Yes, I meant Claire. And yeah, they certainly might not. But there was one point where Sawyer realized that the guy he had met in the bar was Jack's dad, and he didn't tell him at first, but did a few episodes later. Although, there was a much more significant purpose to that.

So, maybe they will, maybe they won't. It's not quite as trivial as some of your examples, though. I could see Locke casually telling Hurley some day that he used to work for a box company and Hurley realizing that it was his. And yes, excellent point about Ben. I could see him knowing the connection between Jack and Claire, although I doubt there would really be much reason for him to bring it up.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> The problem I have with the whole alternate timelines explanation for everything is that it allows any plot hole to be explained away by saying that it occurred in any one of an infinite number of alternate timelines.


But if there is only ONE alternate timeline (the one that Desmond triggered), and if that was built into the series from the beginning, then it could work.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

bruinfan said:


> jeff125va said:
> 
> 
> > If there really are "alternate timelines" going on, then does "corroborating evidence" have any value whatsoever?
> ...


My point: If the fact that we've been watching all of them alive on the island isn't "real evidence" that what has been purported to be the wreckage of their plane with all of their dead bodies is fake, because it could be an alternate timeline, then NOTHING is evidence of ANYTHING. Every SCENE could be an alternate timeline. We didn't REALLY find out that Ben wasn't actually born on the island because THAT could have been an alternate timeline.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I agree, and was happy to see the statements made by Carlton and Damon re: that issue.

It's far more interesting with one timeline - this one - that either changes or has always had changes in it..

That having been said, I can't ignore the fact that those picture frames are different. I don't think that's alternate timeline related at all - but it does seem to indicate a change in the one and only timeline..

The people on that other forum jumped at this evidence with their alternate-timeline-favorite-scifi-gimmick hats on and approached it from that angle, which I think was far off and not imaginative enough.. There's a pure gold explanation in there that the writers already worked out, and its not alternate timelines. So let's discuss it here, with our own frame of reference. With the evidence at hand, I'd say it was either Desmond's actions or Miles' that could have changed those frames (unless the woman is a freak who moves photos around every 5 min). I'm leaning a bit more towards Desmond and the key.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But if there is only ONE alternate timeline (the one that Desmond triggered), and if that was built into the series from the beginning, then it could work.


If he triggered one, then many others could have been triggered as well that we just didn't see get triggered. It's a whole can of worms. Or a can of wormholes...


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Someone stop Jeff Keegan!!! 

Jeff, I really like your theory, and it does make sense. Unfortunately it's also been used similarly before, in


Spoiler



The Prestige


.

What's neat is that we're finally getting to a point in the series where we can postulate intelligent theories without sounding moronic. Back in Season 1, peoples' theories were just wacky because we didn't have enough information to come up with them. Heck, go back to some of the theories back when only the first two hours had been aired. There's some funny stuff there! Fun, but silly.

* I watched this episode again myself, but certainly not as closely as you did, Jeff. I was only really paying attention to the pictures and was only really watching the rest in passing, doing other things at the same time. I was struck by the sun coming through the window behind Miles' head. Whether it's important to the show itself, it WAS planned by the director. That sort of thing doesn't happen by chance, there's too much that goes on with it. The exposure of the shot they had to plan for, with getting Miles' face visible without being a silouette, without blowing out the sun, with the rest of the room there. Then the possibility of a mistake somewhere, the actor missing his lines, or something else being wrong; they only had a minute or two AT BEST to film that before the sun had moved. There's always the possibility of CGI, of course, but not nearly as likely when you could easily film it. Anyway, my point is that it was intentional.

* The station logo on the polar bear's strap is Hydra. It even says Hydra underneath the logo. 

* The picture of Ben, wearing his vest, next to the unplugged monitor. Who says it's at the airport? I've looked at that picture a lot of times, the only thing you can tell without a doubt is he's in line. That picture could easily have been taken at a Dharma facility on the island, prior to the purge. It's not likely to have been taken after, as at that point he wouldn't likely be in line anywhere, being in charge and all.

* As an aside, is Stephen Williams (the director) the same Stephen Williams who played Mr. X in the X-Files?

* Another directorial choice that was interesting to me, the crane angle of Locke as the rain was falling was identical to the one when he was face to face with Smokey.

* Speaking of which, Locke seemed to know when the storm would pass. Does he have Desmond's ability? Obvious, I know.

OK I have a hard time posting in these threads. I have all this stuff in my head, then when I try to type it something comes up, so I leave, come back, and then forget what I was talking about. I'm old.

Greg


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

gchance said:


> * Speaking of which, Locke seemed to know when the storm would pass. Does he have Desmond's ability? Obvious, I know.


Locke has demonstrated the ability to predict the weather in the past as well. I don't think we have ever been given an explanation as to why though.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

jradford said:


> The pictures thing is too noticeable to be a mistake.
> 
> Someone either in this thread, or the one linked, mentioned that the text added to show location was new. I don't think that's true. I believe (I'm going on memory) the only other time they did that was at the end of Season 2 when Desmond turned the key. We got one last flashback to off the island when they showed Antarctica (I think) with the 2 guys who immediately called Penny to let her know they "found" something.
> 
> This would lend support to the idea that each flashback shown in the episode took place in a time period encompassing Desmond turning the key on the island.


That's incorrect. The Antarctica/Arctic scene from the end of season 2 had no text giving us the location.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

gchance said:


> * The station logo on the polar bear's strap is Hydra. It even says Hydra underneath the logo.


It doesn't say Hydra, it says Dharma.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

TheMerk said:


> That's incorrect. The Antarctica/Arctic scene from the end of season 2 had no text giving us the location.


Right, which means we don't know where it is.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TheMerk said:


> It doesn't say Hydra, it says Dharma.


Thank you, I knew I looked closely at that collar and knew I couldn't have missed a station name..


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Ok, first of all, if you haven't seen it, here is the Orchid Orientation Film that is on the Season 3 DVD:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am sure it is a smeek of some sort, but in that video, I noticed the following frames. Not sure what it is supposed to mean, if anything. And following Jeff's modus here, I am spoilerizing, just in case.



Spoiler



1) a frame of DeGroot in some large room with a bunch of other people at tables.

2) A shot of a building that looks sort of like the FBI building (Murrah...sp?) that was bombed many years ago.

3) A quote "God loves you as he loved Jacob"

4) An upside snippet of video that looks like someone riding a bike in what looks like the nice Others' villiage on the Island.



My head hurts now......


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jkeegan-i have only read your first long post, so i apologize if i smeek. and i know i'm only addressing .01&#37; of your thoughts  
but in response to your statement about the vests:

"Another interesting possible hint: Charlotte, when shot, says "vest".. Locke is confused, then figures out she means she's wearing a bulletproof vest. However, there's another vest in the episode.. the white one that Ben is wearing in the picture that Miles is carrying around with him.. Again, I swear I've seen that vest before.. Argh.. "

There is another mention of vest in the episode: when the helicopter is going down, thanks to closed captioning, you hear Charlotte say something along the lines of.. 'where is my vest... can't find my vest.' 

Off to catch up on your other posts.


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## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

Cindy1230 said:


> There is another mention of vest in the episode: when the helicopter is going down, thanks to close captioning, you hear Charlotte say something along the lines of.. 'where is my vest... can't find my vest.'
> 
> Off to catch up on your other posts.


That's a great catch, I got a major deja vu feeling around the whole scene when Charlotte showed she was wearing her vest, almost as if she knew from experience that it would be needed.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I'm sorry if I'm missing something... is there a question as to whether the collar was a Hydra collar? It has the Hydra logo.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

jeff125va said:


> I'm sorry if I'm missing something... is there a question as to whether the collar was a Hydra collar? It has the Hydra logo.


No question at all. Somebody earlier specifically said that the collar had the word HYDRA on it. I was just correcting the error, since the collar in fact had the word DHARMA.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

TheMerk said:


> No question at all. Somebody earlier specifically said that the collar had the word HYDRA on it. I was just correcting the error, since the collar in fact had the word DHARMA.


Gotcha. Couldn't figure out if I was missing some broader context to that discussion.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

ireland967 said:


> That's a great catch, I got a major deja vu feeling around the whole scene when Charlotte showed she was wearing her vest, almost as if she knew from experience that it would be needed.


Huh? Did they not provide enough rational explanation as to why she'd be exercising caution? Their mission was to get Ben. Naomi gave them a coded warning. I'm not sure I see the significance, other than a bit of foreshadowing.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

I may be Smeeking, becasue I haven't' read this whole thread, but I have some theories about the people on the boat. I'm pretty sure they're Dharma. Everyone's Flashbacks dealt with the reasons they were on that mission. Faraday's there because he has some kind of connection to flight 815 that he doesn't understand. Miles is there becasue he can speak to the dead. Frank the pilot was there because he made it known to people that he knew the crash was a fake. But the only significance to Charlotte's flashback is that she came across the skeleton of a bear with a collar from Dharma's Hydra station on the island. 

Here's my theory: Dharma sent the ship becasue they've lost contact with the island. The team was sent to get in, find out what happened and by whom and report back to the ship. That explains the bullet-proof vests and the gas masks.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

TheMerk said:


> That's incorrect. The Antarctica/Arctic scene from the end of season 2 had no text giving us the location.


 Really? Damn. I was going on memory and thought I had stumbled on something. Sorry.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Fleegle said:


> But the only significance to Charlotte's flashback is that she came across the skeleton of a bear with a collar from Dharma's Hydra station on the island.


Big correction here: she didn't "come across" the skeleton, she didn't find it. She showed up knowing it was there, and pushed her way in to take a look at it. The person she was with didn't know what it was, but she knew very well what it was, but was looking for the tag as confirmation.

Greg


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Fleegle said:


> I may be Smeeking, becasue I haven't' read this whole thread, but I have some theories about the people on the boat. I'm pretty sure they're Dharma. Everyone's Flashbacks dealt with the reasons they were on that mission. Faraday's there because he has some kind of connection to flight 815 that he doesn't understand. Miles is there becasue he can speak to the dead. Frank the pilot was there because he made it known to people that he knew the crash was a fake. But the only significance to Charlotte's flashback is that she came across the skeleton of a bear with a collar from Dharma's Hydra station on the island.
> 
> Here's my theory: Dharma sent the ship becasue they've lost contact with the island. The team was sent to get in, find out what happened and by whom and report back to the ship. That explains the bullet-proof vests and the gas masks.


Makes sense for the most part - they did say that they are there for Ben, so it could be revenge for the Dharma Purge. But there must be some connection to Flight 815. Even though Daniel said that it wasn't their primary mission, it seems highly likely that there's some sort of connection, based on Frank's presence as well as Naomi's conversation with Abaddon.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DUSlider said:


> Regarding the different frames for the photo's... Maybe after the first shot they were accidently knocked off the wall and broke. Since they were in a hurry to film due to impending strike they couldn't get a frame that looked like the old one so they just used a different one?
> 
> Also the second camera glance on the photo I want to think was Miles looking at the photo, feeling guilty that he was taking money he found, after all her son was murdered, and thus why he refunded $100.


No way. If that were the case, the camera wouldn't have intentionally panned to the pictures both before and after he went upstairs. It was definitely deliberate.


jwehman said:


> Has anyone gotten a fix yet on the time-frame of the 4 boat-people's episodes back on the mainland? We know that it was after the crash, but how long after? It wasn't two months, as far as I can tell (that was how long the Christiana-1 salvage crew was looking in that area for wrecks, not Oceanic). There isn't any other indication of a timeline that I can tell. Anyone figured that out yet? Or, is it mainly irrelevant?


Just because the two month mention wasn't specifically relative to the crash doesn't mean that it's not roughly the same time. We know that they happened some time between the crash and the events of this episode, so there's roughly a 90 day window when they could have happened.


gchance said:


> Big correction here: she didn't "come across" the skeleton, she didn't find it. She showed up knowing it was there, and pushed her way in to take a look at it. The person she was with didn't know what it was, but she knew very well what it was, but was looking for the tag as confirmation.
> 
> Greg


And to add to that, when she showed up to the dig site, she grabbed a newspaper reporting the finding of the supposed sunken remains of 815. The person traveling with her said, "How many languages are you going to read that in?" and Charlotte replied, "How many languages are there?" She clearly has interest in DHARMA and knows the connection to Flight 815.  We don't know if she was involved with DHARMA at the time of that scene or became so because of that, but I'm fairly certain that the boat people are connected to DHARMA somehow.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> And to add to that, when she showed up to the dig site, she grabbed a newspaper reporting the finding of the supposed sunken remains of 815. The person traveling with her said, "How many languages are you going to read that in?" and Charlotte replied, "How many languages are there?" She clearly has interest in DHARMA and knows the connection to Flight 815. We don't know if she was involved with DHARMA at the time of that scene or became so because of that, but I'm fairly certain that the boat people are connected to DHARMA somehow.


I took her to be a conspiracy theorist/nut (a la the "Lone Gunmen" from X-Files). Nothing really backs that up but it was my take on the subject.


----------



## johnb41 (Jan 20, 2004)

The more i read and research, the more complex this all gets!!

As mentioned earlier in the thread, check out the Dharma video from the S3 DVD:





In it, the doctor mentions the "casimir effect".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

Confusing article, no?

This video kind of explains it as it relates to Lost:





So,



Spoiler



So there appears to be time travel? The polar bear in the desert was sent way back in time? Sawyer was injected something to be sent back in time?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jkeegan, I love your theory! I don't know if I BELIEVE it, but I really like it.


----------



## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

One thing that bothers me and doesn't seem to jive with the story.

Dharma was dropping supplies onto the island. This to me means that they knew where the island was.

There is this discussion about how they couldn't find the island because of the Underwater station blocking all signals. But the Air-Drops seem to negate that possiblity.

In the time-line of lost when was the last drop the island has seen? Maybe that will help answer some of our questions.

It's all speculation but it would make sense to me that Naomi's people on the boat are not Dharma if Dharma knows where to drop supplies on the island. Charlotte does show us they know of Dharma.

Another thing that suggests they know of Dharma is when the Pilot asks Joliette her name and then knows she was on the island before the crash.

So I think that we have a third group interested in the island.

1) Dharma
2) Richards group that brought Joliette on the island
3) Naomi's people who know about the island, have been searching for it and know of Dharma.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

glumlord said:


> Another thing that suggests they know of Dharma is when the Pilot asks Joliette her name and then knows she was on the island before the crash.


He knew only that she wasn't on the plane. I don't remember for sure if he said that she was on the island before the crash or not, but I seem to recall him saying something along those lines, like "she's a native" or something.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> No way. If that were the case, the camera wouldn't have intentionally panned to the pictures both before and after he went upstairs. It was definitely deliberate.
> 
> Just because the two month mention wasn't specifically relative to the crash doesn't mean that it's not roughly the same time. We know that they happened some time between the crash and the events of this episode, so there's roughly a 90 day window when they could have happened.
> 
> And to add to that, when she showed up to the dig site, she grabbed a newspaper reporting the finding of the supposed sunken remains of 815. The person traveling with her said, "How many languages are you going to read that in?" and Charlotte replied, "How many languages are there?" She clearly has interest in DHARMA and knows the connection to Flight 815. We don't know if she was involved with DHARMA at the time of that scene or became so because of that, but I'm fairly certain that the boat people are connected to DHARMA somehow.


No doubt it was deliberate.

My guess is two months is about right, but it begs the question of whether it's a coincidence that the Christiane I had been out there for two months. Did they just happen across it or were they looking for it? If the latter, did someone point them in that direction? IIRC, they seemed to know right away what it was. Of course, the crash had been recent and it was obviously an Oceanic plane, so that might not really be significant.

But about the timeframe, two months seems to be correct because it's enough for the team to have been assembled and travelled to the island (which occurred just over 90 days after the crash).

As to Charlotte's comments about the languages - I agree it's significant. She obviously means that she'll never believe that it was found. Unless she knows something that the average person wouldn't, it doesn't seem so hard to believe that the wreckage would be found at some point. It doesn't necessarily confirm her knowledge of a connection, but it seems highly unlikely that she'd just coincidentally have such an interest in or knowledge of both Flight 815 and Dharma.

Interesting point about the languages comment - I really don't think it means anything, but it reminded me of how Naomi was first speaking so many different languages when they first found her on the island. Maybe it was just a figure of speech, or maybe she really does know a lot of languages, which would further add to the question of why Naomi (and perhaps Charlotte) know so many.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jlb said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 2) A shot of a building that looks sort of like the FBI building (Murrah...sp?) that was bombed many years ago.





Spoiler



I think that's the building that we saw in the Swan orientation video, where Alvar Hanso was.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> jkeegan-i have only read your first long post, so i apologize if i smeek. and i know i'm only addressing .01% of your thoughts
> but in response to your statement about the vests:
> 
> "Another interesting possible hint: Charlotte, when shot, says "vest".. Locke is confused, then figures out she means she's wearing a bulletproof vest. However, there's another vest in the episode.. the white one that Ben is wearing in the picture that Miles is carrying around with him.. Again, I swear I've seen that vest before.. Argh.. "
> ...


Good thing she found it! (I assume she's talking about her bulletproof vest?)


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

johnb41 said:


> This video kind of explains it as it relates to Lost:


Wow, I don't like that video at all.. someone's way out of his element, trying to describe stuff for a Lost video with snippits from wikipedia (I'd already read all that text).  I'm no expert, so I can't help, but that didn't feel like we were listening to an expert either.

I liked this comment on the youtube video:


> (By BurningAngel99) It is said that the Casimir effect﻿ can be used to produce a locally mass-negative region of space-time (a wormhole), and suggested that negative effect could be used to stabilize a wormhole to allow faster than light travel (or even time travel).


and this one:


> This guy does not understand the Casimir Effect. It has to do with two ends of a wormhole occupying the same space but different times. At some point in the future, #15 went through a wormhole back to the past, when the film was being shot. Halowax didn't want #15 coming into contact with its past self, because if it did something to change its past self, a dangerous paradox would be created.


I also disagree with the video author's conclusions about what the bunny-and-Sawyer scene meant.. If it meant anything other than what they told Sawyer it meant, maybe Ben didn't actually kill the bunny (see my spoilerized theory above)..



> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> So there appears to be time travel? The polar bear in the desert was sent way back in time? Sawyer was injected something to be sent back in time?


Eh,


Spoiler



I'd say there's time travel, PLUS distance travel (the bunny ended up on the bookshelf).. The polar bear was sent some far distance, but who knows how long ago it was sent.. wouldn't need to be far - just far enough that the tissue decomposed and/or the bones were picked clean.. (well, and enough time for the gravel around it to have been laid down). As for the Sawyer part, I'm not sure I buy into any of that yet, although I am intrigued now at the fact that they did bother to stab him in the sternum.. if all they wanted to do was to get him to have sex with Kate, they probably could have done it better, so maybe there is something more to that needle.. I need to see more..


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

MickeS said:


> jkeegan, I love your theory! I don't know if I BELIEVE it, but I really like it.


 Thanks! I'm not sure I believe it either, but it's tough to ignore the Orchid video, and this fits in with this and the Naomi flashback (and what sounds like her voice on the radio).


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Just had another thought.. remember the blue vacuum containers that were coming out of the Pearl station, with notebooks full of notes?

(spoilerizing since it involves my theory which relies on the Orchid video which we haven't heard a spoiler ruling on yet):



Spoiler



Maybe those notebooks were "transported" ala my theory, and in fact sent to someone who read them, but the originals are left over (just like the corpses of living things that you try to transport).


----------



## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Just had another thought.. remember the blue vacuum containers that were coming out of the Pearl station, with notebooks full of notes?
> 
> (spoilerizing since it involves my theory which relies on the Orchid video which we haven't heard a spoiler ruling on yet):
> 
> ...


I am all for interesting theory's but this "Transporting" theory seems a little far fetched for my liking.

My assumption was that the Notebooks were being carried through the Air Powered pipe from the station. I believe it was more of a psychological experiment on the watchers or spies in the station.

I say if there are two explanations always go with the simpler of the two as it's probably true.

I still believe in the time-travel aspect of the show but it seems like trivializing it by saying they time-travel or transport everything doesn't fall in line of how the guy reacted in the video. It seems they are VERY cautious and wouldn't be just using time-shifting/travel so willy nilly.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

glumlord said:


> One thing that bothers me and doesn't seem to jive with the story.
> 
> Dharma was dropping supplies onto the island. This to me means that they knew where the island was.
> 
> There is this discussion about how they couldn't find the island because of the Underwater station blocking all signals. But the Air-Drops seem to negate that possiblity.


I agree, whomever is dropping food seems to know what coordinates to drop them at. Maybe they're just a contractor, paid in full, for something like "food drops for the next 100 years" or something. Maybe Dharma is gone - disbanded.. (Maybe all that was left of Dharma was Ben). If Dharma's gone, but the drops are still happening by someone dropping them into some invisible island (maybe they just see ocean, and drop it, because they're paid to do so, thinking it's for some underwater station or something for all they know), then that kinda fits.. That would mean that the group that Dan/Miles/Charlotte/Frank/Naomi belong to _isn't_ Dharma, but clearly knows about and is interested in Dharma. (or they're picking up where Dharma left off, and don't have old files with the coordinates for the island, etc). I seem to remember Naomi describing something to the Losties about how she jumped as if she saw just empty ocean, then something just opened up beneath her and then suddenly there was the island.. probably horrible wording there, sorry, there's a project for whomever wants to look it up. 

Maybe food drops needed to be coordinated, and the pilot drops them just as someone/something on the island teleports them from midair wherever to midair over the island?



> In the time-line of lost when was the last drop the island has seen? Maybe that will help answer some of our questions.


From a cursory glance at lostpedia (in other words, I might have not looked hard enough), it _looks_ like the last drop was on Day 61, in the episode Lockdown.. That was when the blast doors in the Swan station came down, Locke saw the ultraviolet map, Henry helped Locke a bit, and Jack and Kate found the supplies. (On day 62, in the episode Dave, everyone else found it, and that's when Hurley started seeing Dave again). That was all before Desmond turned the key, so maybe the beacon isn't working anymore.. (actually, I don't know if we can trust any info about a "beacon" anymore.. we were told it helped the sub return, but that it was blown out when the sky turned purple (Desmond and the key).. but Mikhail told us that (IIRC), and Mikhail was then later surprised to find out that the Looking Glass station wasn't flooded and was jamming signals.. Was that station the beacon and nothing was really blown out, or was there never a beacon, etc? I dunno.



> It's all speculation but it would make sense to me that Naomi's people on the boat are not Dharma if Dharma knows where to drop supplies on the island. Charlotte does show us they know of Dharma.


Agreed, except with the possibility that it might be Dharma people that lost information about where the island was, but I doubt that.. it feels more like this is another group.



> Another thing that suggests they know of Dharma is when the Pilot asks Joliette her name and then knows she was on the island before the crash.


Eh, it wasn't exactly like that.. He asked Juliet what her name was, then her last name, then knew she wasn't on the plane because her name wasn't on the manifest (which he'd been over many times).. It's not that he recognized her name, it's that he did _not_ recognize her name.



> So I think that we have a third group interested in the island.
> 
> 1) Dharma
> 2) Richards group that brought Joliette on the island
> 3) Naomi's people who know about the island, have been searching for it and know of Dharma.


We don't know that Dharma still exists, so it might not be on the list.. And I think there's at least a potential fourth group: Penny.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Indiana627 said:


> So who went to the time and expense to fake the crash site in the ocean? Who does the guy who sent Naomi on the mission (the same guy who visited Hurley in the psych center in the flash forward last week) work for?


60 posts in -- 230 more posts to get caught up --

The black guy who said he worked for Oceanic when he visited Hurley, and who also hired Naomi and her crew ...

It now occurs to me that when he asked Hurley if "they were still alive", that instead of referring to the Oceanic survivors, he would've been asking about Naomi and her team.

Hmmm ... now back to playing catch-up ...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Interesting point about the languages comment - I really don't think it means anything, but it reminded me of how Naomi was first speaking so many different languages when they first found her on the island. Maybe it was just a figure of speech, or maybe she really does know a lot of languages, which would further add to the question of why Naomi (and perhaps Charlotte) know so many.


Maybe they needed to know so many languages in case they had a mistake and transported to the wrong place on earth.. With a traditional mission you could learn just the language for the area you were dropping into, but maybe here they were worrying about "accidentally" dropping into some country half way around the world from where they were planning to go..

Or maybe the island is like a Land of the Lost kind of bucket where lots of diverse people tend to end up, and they wanted to be able to talk to whomever they found.. So far we have English, French, (Russian probably?), Korean, ...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> 60 posts in -- 230 more posts to get caught up --
> 
> The black guy who said he worked for Oceanic when he visited Hurley, and who also hired Naomi and her crew ...
> 
> ...


I guess at least we know these 4/5 aren't part of the Oceanic Six! And if they do get off the island, they're at least underground and not communicating with the guy who sent them in there..


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

glumlord said:


> I still believe in the time-travel aspect of the show but it seems like trivializing it by saying they time-travel or transport everything doesn't fall in line of how the guy reacted in the video. It seems they are VERY cautious and wouldn't be just using time-shifting/travel so willy nilly.


Point well taken, although they were just figuring it all out back then, which was like 30 years ago..

I was just thinking about places where we see things that appear left behind or forgotten (including corpses) that maybe we'll find out later weren't.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

By the way, in case it wasn't clear to people, watching that Orchid Orientation video certainly explains one of the flashbacks from this episode..


----------



## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> I agree, whomever is dropping food seems to know what coordinates to drop them at. Maybe they're just a contractor, paid in full, for something like "food drops for the next 100 years" or something. Maybe Dharma is gone - disbanded.. (Maybe all that was left of Dharma was Ben). If Dharma's gone, but the drops are still happening by someone dropping them into some invisible island (maybe they just see ocean, and drop it, because they're paid to do so, thinking it's for some underwater station or something for all they know), then that kinda fits..


Well Dharma's food was still being created/packaged fresh with their labeling. Most of that food stuffs was perishables so we would have to believe they paid some company to package food stuffs with their label, and paid some contractor who happened to know where the island is to drop the shipments.

That raises two big questions which I'm not sure can be answered as of this point but seem obvious to me.

1) Is Dharma Active
- I say yes because I believe they still package the food and drop it on the island

2) If Dharma is active why wouldn't they come back to the island after Ben wiped out their whole team?

I'm so confused at this point 



jkeegan said:


> From a cursory glance at lostpedia (in other words, I might have not looked hard enough), it _looks_ like the last drop was on Day 61, in the episode Lockdown.. That was when the blast doors in the Swan station came down, Locke saw the ultraviolet map, Henry helped Locke a bit, and Jack and Kate found the supplies. (On day 62, in the episode Dave, everyone else found it, and that's when Hurley started seeing Dave again). That was all before Desmond turned the key, so maybe the beacon isn't working anymore..
> 
> We don't know that Dharma still exists, so it might not be on the list.. And I think there's at least a potential fourth group: Penny.


I think there may have been another drop after that but if your correct it could be when the button wasn't pushed and the catastrophic event happened it somehow interrupted the Dharma drop. It still doesn't make sense to me why they wouldn't come back after Ben wiped them all out if they knew where the island was. Ben couldn't of wiped out all the scientists off-site or the involvement by the Widmore corporation.

One thing that just occured to me is that the Widmore Corporation could be who Naomi is associated with. The father may know that Penny is getting close to finding Desmond and in turn the island and wants to find him/them first. Naomi after all did have a picture of Desmond and Penny if I remember correctly.

My brain hurts at this point and none of the links are tied together, I know in a few episodes all this speculation is going to be worthless as they answer questions and make them seem so obvious.


----------



## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Point well taken, although they were just figuring it all out back then, which was like 30 years ago..
> 
> I was just thinking about places where we see things that appear left behind or forgotten (including corpses) that maybe we'll find out later weren't.


Nah don't get me wrong, I appreciated the fact that the notebooks were brought up, as were the mass grave site. It helps jog the memory.

There is so much information that Lost presents us with that it's nearly impossible at least for myself to keep it all clear.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

nataylor said:


> You can contact ghosts with a Dust Buster?


I think the underlying joke there is that a Dust Buster being used for ghosts would make it a "Ghost Buster".








Who ya' gonna' call?

ETA:


GDG76 said:


> I thought the dustbuster was just a homage to the Ghostbusters.
> 
> It wasn't really used for anything but a prop for credibility in the eyes of who he is providing services to...


Oops! I smeeked in my enthusiasm to contribute fresh ideas while still just past half way through the ever-growing posts.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I thought when he called back to the ship, that he called the girl by name--did I remember wrong? Plus, I don't see Dan as the kind of guy who could look at your dead body and then 2 minutes later casually talk to you on the phone--even if he knew what was going on. 

When Locke stood there in the rain, I thought he was willing the storm to stop, not discerning when it would stop.

I can't see how anyone would connect the flight 815 crash with the island, even if they knew about Dharma and the island. The plane wasn't supposed to be anywhere near there. So if they knew it (and they obviously did) either they had communicated with someone there since it went down, or the whole crash was planned out in advance, and they knew about that. 

(Or they knew it in "another life, Brutha")


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Yes, it was.
> There was also a question about the picture of the boy on the wall of the house.
> 
> I don't think it's an African teenager from Eko's village.
> I think it's Sam Jones III of Smallville and ER.


But Sam has no LOST credits on his IMDB.com page.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> Hasn't been stated that he's <Ben> never been off the island? Has he said he was born there?


Interesting tidbit:
Michael Emerson's real-life wife played Ben's mother in the episode where she died after giving birth to Ben.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

While talking to a friend about this I just had another idea re: the food drops and the shifting that's talked about in the Orchid video..



Spoiler



So what if Dharma initially created like 400 food drops, with Dharma-labeled food, etc.. Each one had different expiration dates drawn onto them, but they were all made at the same time. Then, fly a plane, drop all 400 food drops (so their parachutes open, etc), then transport each one of them to a different time in the island's future..

Once every 3 months, a Lockdown would occur (based on some timer in the hatch) to keep the person inside from looking up in the sky and seeing some portal open up in the sky. One food drop would arrive, complete with appropriate expiration times, based on the date they were dropped to. (so if a can of corn lasted 2 months, the expiration date would be the drop date plus 2 months, even though it was canned at the same initial time as another can of that'd be dropped 5 years from then, which has that 5 year from now date plus 2 months on it.

That'd explain how they're still getting food drops if Dharma doesn't exist, without relying on the idea of having a contractor that's reliable enough to continue doing it even after Dharma ceased mainland operations someday, etc. And _if_ we already have the ability to teleport/shift things through time, then that doesn't require any additional technology than we already have..



In real life I'm all about ockham's razor.. but here, we already have a video showing what the Orchid Orientation video shows.. Once that's a given, all of your ockham's razor decisions are based on that, not reevaluating it.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I thought when he called back to the ship, that he called the girl by name--did I remember wrong?


I'll check, but I don't think he did.. He said he wanted to talk to Minkowski, and the woman said he wasn't going to come to the phone right now.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I thought when he called back to the ship, that he called the girl by name--did I remember wrong?


He did call her by name: Regina.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> jkeegan-i have only read your first long post, so i apologize if i smeek. and i know i'm only addressing .01% of your thoughts
> but in response to your statement about the vests:
> 
> "Another interesting possible hint: Charlotte, when shot, says "vest".. Locke is confused, then figures out she means she's wearing a bulletproof vest. However, there's another vest in the episode.. the white one that Ben is wearing in the picture that Miles is carrying around with him.. Again, I swear I've seen that vest before.. Argh.. "
> ...


Wow, yep.. Not only does she say she can't find her vest, but Miles then says "Here, just take mine". So, for those keeping score, Miles has no vest.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TheMerk said:


> He did call her by name: Regina.


i stand corrected. Went back to check and the name of the guy is George Minkowski.

One last thought on this (admittedly reaching):


Spoiler



Marvin Candle had many names, maybe there's a protocol to give the "destination" of a teleport/copy a new name, and Regina is a Naomi copy? Like I said, it's a reach..


----------



## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I couldn't resist going back again to examine the portion of the episode where Miles is upstairs with the ghost vac.

Screencaps of the pics on the wall have already been posted, but I noticed something else - it may be relevent, it may not.

Sorry for the large size of these caps, but I wanted to show detail. In the pics below, notice that:

- In pic #1, there is an advertisement on the bulletin board that says something about "Photo Restoration (by....?)". Is this an intentional clue? Unfortunately, I can't make out the writing on anything else on that board. This scene occurs when Miles first enters the house, before he goes upstairs.
- Pic #2 is the scene where Miles has come back down the stairs, and is refunding the lady half her money. Look at the bulletin board behind the lady now. Does it look changed?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Saw that but didn't know what to make of it. The more i think about it though, the more I keep thinking two possibilities:
1) "science" rational explanation for the frames changing.. She just did photo restoration of her photos on the wall, and changes them while Miles is upstairs.
2) Another hint about this being Desmond related.. The photo restoration ad shows one example in the bottom left corner of superimposing a pic of someone on a different background.. Desmond's photo w/Penny was actually fake if you remember - the photographer pulled down a fake Sydney background for their photo, even though they were in London.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

TiVotion said:


> - Pic #2 is the scene where Miles has come back down the stairs, and is refunding the lady half her money. Look at the bulletin board behind the lady now. Does it look changed?


Not really. We don't see the top of the board in the first picture; we don't see the bottom in the second. Looks to me like the business card we see in the second image is the same one that we can partially see at the top of the first, and we can just see the upper left-hand corner of the photo retouching ad in the second. The angles of the card and ad relative to each other look the same in both shots, too.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Well Jeff, the food drops definitely stopped when Locke blew up the Flame station. And that kind of puts a damper there on some ideas, because you could apparently order a food drop from the Flame (though we never saw it happen). 

The 2 month timeframe is so close to right to be right. Naomi showed up (I believe) on day 84. It would taken some time for the team to come together, get gear, and get out to the freighter. Plus odds are this wasn't her first flight. 2 or 2 1/2 weeks of all that puts the scenes in the episode almost dead on day 67. As they say, close enough for government work.

(Of course, it could be much earlier but that shoots down the Picture Frame Time Change Theory.)

White vest: going completely off memory and not going back to look, but did Ben wear a white vest when he had breakfast with Kate on the beach?

Jeff, I have to say you are impressive. I am NOT making fun, or being sarcastic, because you certainly put a lot of time and thought into your theory. But it is amusing that after you said the folks at LF had overly quick imaginations you produce this theory.   It was fun to read your posts all in a row. And who knows, you may be on to something!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Delta13 said:


> Well Jeff, the food drops definitely stopped when Locke blew up the Flame station. And that kind of puts a damper there on some ideas, because you could apparently order a food drop from the Flame (though we never saw it happen).


Wait, as far as we know, there's only been one drop during the time they were on the island. Sometime around Day 60. Assuming there weren't any other food drops that we haven't seen, there is no evidence that the food drops stopped when the hatch blew up, as the time for the next scheduled drop hasn't even arrived yet.


----------



## avery (May 29, 2006)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Not really. We don't see the top of the board in the first picture; we don't see the bottom in the second. Looks to me like the business card we see in the second image is the same one that we can partially see at the top of the first, and we can just see the upper left-hand corner of the photo retouching ad in the second. The angles of the card and ad relative to each other look the same in both shots, too.


Exactly. Nothing has been rearranged, just obscured in the 2nd photo.

Since TiVotion mentioned not being able to make out the writing on anything else... I can tell you that the two pieces of paper beneath the pink business card obviously have American Express logos. (which I'm sure mean absolutely nothing! )


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Delta13 said:


> White vest: going completely off memory and not going back to look, but did Ben wear a white vest when he had breakfast with Kate on the beach?


Nope. 









Of course that's an ABC on-set still and not a frame from the show, but it's probably representative.

Greg


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

getreal said:


> But Sam has no LOST credits on his IMDB.com page.


Just having your photo on the wall doesn't give you a credit.

And nothing precludes him from appearing in a later episode.

It's like in Heroes when Erick Avari's photo appears on a prop book episodes before he appears in the show.
IIRC, he didn't a credit for being on the prop book.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> I couldn't resist going back again to examine the portion of the episode where Miles is upstairs with the ghost vac.
> 
> Screencaps of the pics on the wall have already been posted, but I noticed something else - it may be relevent, it may not.
> 
> ...


The bulletin board looks the same to me, it's just shown at a different perspective in the two shots. The first picture is a closer shot, and we see the bottom corner of a business card and the whole ad for photo restoration. The second picture is pulled out a bit and moved slightly to the right, so we see the entire business card and the top corner of the ad.


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## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Not really. We don't see the top of the board in the first picture; we don't see the bottom in the second. Looks to me like the business card we see in the second image is the same one that we can partially see at the top of the first, and we can just see the upper left-hand corner of the photo retouching ad in the second. The angles of the card and ad relative to each other look the same in both shots, too.


I agree, looks like we see the bottom of the business card in top photo and in the other we see the full business card and the top of the photo restoration ad.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> Well Jeff, the food drops definitely stopped when Locke blew up the Flame station. And that kind of puts a damper there on some ideas, because you could apparently order a food drop from the Flame (though we never saw it happen).


Yeah I forgot that we saw a "food drop" interface on the chess computer.. I wonder if that's just supplemental, so order extra food drops, because I swear I remember something in a podcast or DVD commentary etc where they said something along the lines of "drops were arranged to happen"..



> The 2 month timeframe is so close to right to be right. Naomi showed up (I believe) on day 84. It would taken some time for the team to come together, get gear, and get out to the freighter. Plus odds are this wasn't her first flight. 2 or 2 1/2 weeks of all that puts the scenes in the episode almost dead on day 67. As they say, close enough for government work.


Agreed.



> Jeff, I have to say you are impressive. I am NOT making fun, or being sarcastic, because you certainly put a lot of time and thought into your theory. But it is amusing that after you said the folks at LF had overly quick imaginations you produce this theory.   It was fun to read your posts all in a row. And who knows, you may be on to something!


 Yeah it's funny how easy it is to slip into "well if we have this, then that leads to this, and that leads to.." type discussions, and soon you've got levitating wish-granting super monkeys who carry out the island's will via timeshifting desired objects from other dimensions. 

BUT.. seriously.. the stuff on the other forum is way more out there than what I'm saying.  My idea basically took what we're shown in the Orchid video and added ONE thing:


Spoiler



The idea that the original bunny that he's holding would die and stay in his hands, instead of disappearing (a somewhat destructive copy of the rabbit to send back in time, instead of a complete disintegration of the rabbit to send back in time). That's the only additional piece I'm suggesting to what we've already been shown, and it's mainly because I know that if *I* were holding a rabbit that was about to be sent back in time, I'd be tempted to put it down or put it in a cage or something, lest my hand be sent back in time too.. Wouldn't you? He's holding it and doesn't seem worried about that at all..


The ideas on the other forum, though, almost immediately went to things like "Cuz he sed the light scatters wrong, that provez the island is where multiple timelines mix, and they're bleeding into each other, and that splains Locke walking! It's cuz of the Casimir effect! My head just 'sploded!!!".


----------



## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

jeff125va said:


> Because of her meeting with Matthew Abaddon, I'm guessing that she has a mission that is separate from, and unknown to, the rest of the crew. Because of what Penny said to Charlie, I'm guessing that the Penny angle is (or was, since she's dead) a cover story. Obviously, there's still more to be learned, i.e. why use Penny as the cover story, and where was Penny transmitting from, etc.?


Dead? Did I miss something?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Just having your photo on the wall doesn't give you a credit.
> 
> And nothing precludes him from appearing in a later episode.
> 
> ...


Why wouldn't you get a credit on IMDB.com if you're an actor whose photo was used on a show? You also get a credit if just your voice was used. In your own example, Erick Avari has three credits for appearing on Heroes.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

MickeS said:


> It could be a dead body from a morgue or a dummy. There is no proof that there were any other bodies in the wreck. Certainly no need for another plane to have crashed.


Of course, there is absolutely no way that footage would ever be shown on the air, ever.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Dead? Did I miss something?


Oops, I meant Naomi. Well, I guess I did mean "Penny" but "the angle" I was referring to was Naomi's story.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Dead? Did I miss something?


Jeff was referring (albeit in a confusing way) to Naomi being dead.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

So, after rewatching the episode last night, during the final scene with Ben, he recounts the people on the freighter.

He said that Charlotte Staples Lewis was travelling with two other team members and a pilot. Their names: Daniel Faraday, Miles Strohm & Frank Lapidus. 

Then he revealed that he had a man on their boat. Since he didn't mention George Minkowski, we can assume that George is Ben's "man on the boat". 

But there was also no mention by Ben of the Naomi sound-alike (and possible clone) Regina.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> The ideas on the other forum, though, almost immediately went to things like "Cuz he sed the light scatters wrong, that provez the island is where multiple timelines mix, and they're bleeding into each other, and that splains Locke walking! It's cuz of the Casimir effect! My head just 'sploded!!!".


Wow! With lingo like that, I'll gladly stay away from that forum. My head would actually 'splode.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

getreal said:


> Why wouldn't you get a credit on IMDB.com if you're an actor whose photo was used on a show? You also get a credit if just your voice was used. In your own example, Erick Avari has three credits for appearing on Heroes.


Right but his photo on the book appeared in episodes before he finally appeared in the 8th episode, "Seven Minutes to Midnight", his first credit for Heroes.
It was discussed some in the Heroes threads at the time that the first episode had a photograph on the book of a different actor (who did not get a IMBD credit) then changed to Erick Avari before he appeared as an actor on the show.

So lack of an IMDB credit does not prove or disprove that the photograph on the wall is of Sam Jones III.

(And to be fair IMDB.com relies alot on fan submissions)


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> Then he revealed that he had a man on their boat. Since he didn't mention George Minkowski, we can assume that George is Ben's "man on the boat".


Eh, I'm not ready to make that assumption yet, at least without more info.. A freighter is supposed to be big, right? There's gotta be more people there.. Maybe Ben's guy is the cook, for all we know.. (it's always the cook).


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

getreal said:


> So, after rewatching the episode last night, during the final scene with Ben, he recounts the people on the freighter.
> 
> He said that Charlotte Staples Lewis was travelling with two other team members and a pilot. Their names: Daniel Faraday, Miles Strohm & Frank Lipedis.
> 
> ...


I don't think we can. Perhaps there are more people on the boat than the ones who have been named. Perhaps Ben's man is hiding on the boat. It's plausible though.

Another plausible theory is that when Regina answered the phone and said Minkowski wasn't available, it had something to do with Ben's man. Perhaps Ben used "man" in a generic sense (maybe he hired someone to plant someone on the boat and just assumed it would be a man) and Regina is Ben's contact.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

JYoung said:


> So lack of an IMDB credit does not prove or disprove that the photograph on the wall is of Sam Jones III.
> 
> (And to be fair IMDB.com relies alot on fan submissions)


I recall the Heroes discussion about the different photo on the book in the first episode and subsequent episodes.

But I would think that Sam Jones' publicist would make sure he got an IMDB.com credit for appearing (even if just in a prominent background photo) on such a blockbuster hit as LOST -- especially since the episode had been filmed at least 6 months ago, there would have been LOTS of time to update IMDB. Roy Scheider's IMDB.com page included his date of death just a few HOURS after he passed away.

There is no mention of Sam Jones III on the IMDB.com cast roster for this particular episode.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Call me "reaching", but I could swear that the add on the card says "Photo Restoration by *Johnny Locke*".


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

getreal said:


> Jeff was referring (albeit in a confusing way) to Naomi being dead.


Whew, I was wondering if I had narcolepsy and slept through something important.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

getreal said:


> There is no mention of Sam Jones III on the IMDB.com cast roster for this particular episode.


Okay, so looking closer at the cast roster on IMDB, I see that a few other names are also absent, including whoever provided the voices for Regina and George from the freighter.

I also noted on first and second viewing of the episode, that Desmond was absent throughout. What's he up to, I wonder?


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

getreal said:


> Okay, so looking closer at the cast roster on IMDB, I see that a few other names are also absent, including whoever provided the voices for Regina and George from the freighter.
> 
> I also noted on first and second viewing of the episode, that Desmond was absent throughout. What's he up to, I wonder?


There were quite a few actors/actresses missing in this episode. Sun and Jin come to mind as well as... Charlie!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jlb said:


> Call me "reaching", but I could swear that the add on the card says "Photo Restoration by *Johnny Locke*".


I THOUGHT THAT TOO!  Didn't wanna look like a crazy person though. 

Glad to hear I'm not the only one that thought that.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jlb said:


> Call me "reaching", but I could swear that the add on the card says "Photo Restoration by *Johnny Locke*".


I'll bet that's not supposed to be anything at all. It also appears to say "125 N. King St, #C..." and "Phone (808) ..."

Those are both in Honolulu and therefore, it's probably just a real flyer that happened to be in the home they used for the set. Wasn't Miles' scene supposed to be in L.A.?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Of course, there is absolutely no way that footage would ever be shown on the air, ever.


Yeah, that bugged me too.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> I THOUGHT THAT TOO!  Didn't wanna look like a crazy person though.
> 
> Glad to hear I'm not the only one that thought that.


Of course, that doesn't mean you're both not reaching. It is pretty blurry.

I've been meaning to re-watch this on my projection screen, because I really want to see if any date is visible on the newspaper. Although it's most likely going to be in French, which will make it more difficult unless it's really clear and I can see each letter. I'll check this flyer out, too.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

I had a theory while watching the show. We know that the Smoke Monster can take a form that appears human. We've seen it take shape as Eko's dead brother, and I assume that it also took the shape of Christian Shepherd way back in Season 1. Well, we now know that Christian Shepherd was in the rocking chair in Jacob's Cabin when Hurley was peeking in the window last week.

I think Jacob is the Smoke Monster.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Of course, that doesn't mean you're both not reaching. It is pretty blurry.
> 
> I've been meaning to re-watch this on my projection screen, because I really want to see if any date is visible on the newspaper. Although it's most likely going to be in French, which will make it more difficult unless it's really clear and I can see each letter. I'll check this flyer out, too.


My wife knows French and I had her try to read it (because I couldn't) on our 60" Sony Grand WEGA, and she couldn't.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fleegle said:


> I had a theory while watching the show. We know that the Smoke Monster can take a form that appears human.


We're almost there, but not quite.. We know that the smoke monster happened to be right there near Eko right after he saw a human form.. So it's _possible_ that the smoke monster is taking those shapes, but we don't really know that for a fact.. (The writers aren't bound to that).. For all we know, the smoke monster is a tool used by something, and human/horse projected forms are another, used by the same thing. We just don't _know_. But it does sound like a possible theory.



> We've seen it take shape as Eko's dead brother, and I assume that it also took the shape of Christian Shepherd way back in Season 1. Well, we now know that Christian Shepherd was in the rocking chair in Jacob's Cabin when Hurley was peeking in the window last week.
> 
> I think Jacob is the Smoke Monster.


As far as things-that-we've-seen-that-are-supposed-to-be-dead go, we saw Christian Shepherd, a horse, Charlie(off-island), Eko's brother, the black horse Kate saw, and others I'm sure that aren't popping to mind.. Just within that group, those each are very different.. (Christian Shepherd's body wasn't in the coffin, but Eko's brother's body was in the plane.. Charlie was off-island and seen by a mental patient that hallucinates, etc. So it's tough linking definitive causes to these (although they might do just that.. but the writers can decide it easier than we can establish it as fact). Watch the webisodes, won't say why, but watch those, because one of them slightly relates to one of the things you mentioned.

I believe Juliete and Ben when they say they don't know what the smoke monster is, but that they know it's afraid of their (previously, Dharma's) fence.

Danielle called it a security mechanism.

It was able to "show" images from Eko's life to Eko (we even saw them), so it's able to record those images or read them from his mind or something.. It also seemed to "scan" Juliete and Kate, flashing light at their eyes. It grabbed Locke and Eko.

So what I'm saying is, it's pretty damned complex, and right now we have no idea what it is..

I'd like to think that with all of the _actual_ time travel that's going on (not just Desmond's.. at least one rabbit), maybe they made some mistake and pulled something from waaaaay in the future.. Maybe it's some nanotech robotic swarm/arm that's got enough computational power in it to be aware/alive..

I just think it'd be even cooler if we found out that everything wasn't just explained by the smoke monster - that there were _other_ things (like teleportation or telepresence or whatever _they_ establish in the show) that are happening too, alongside this smoke monster and magnetic island and immortality and over-agressive-fertility and ghosts and numbers, etc...

Ok, I'm rambling. To wrap it back up though, it _could_ be Jacob, or just talking to Jacob in the cabin, etc. But one thing's for sure - there's _no way_ the writers would have something like the smoke monster in the show (repeatedly) without a damned good story/explanation behind it. No way.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> My wife knows French and I had her try to read it (because I couldn't) on our 60" Sony Grand WEGA, and she couldn't.


If only the characters on CSI:wherever watched Lost. They would have "enhanced" it by now. 

I'll check it out on my 106" projection screen, but something tells me it's not going to matter. They generally haven't made it this difficult to see dates on driver's licenses, etc., so my guess is that in this case they intentionally blurred the date for some reason. But I'll give it a shot.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

jeff125va said:


> If only the characters on CSI:wherever watched Lost. They would have "enhanced" it by now.
> 
> I'll check it out on my 106" projection screen, but something tells me it's not going to matter. They generally haven't made it this difficult to see dates on driver's licenses, etc., so my guess is that in this case they intentionally blurred the date for some reason. But I'll give it a shot.


I coudn't make heads or tails of it, and I was zooming on on the HD rip from my hacked DirecTivo on my 24 inch computer monitor.

It *kind of* looks like the year is 2004, but I could just be seeing things...


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

I hope when this is all over, we get a recap episode from beginning to end that explains everything.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

bruinfan said:


> I hope when this is all over, we get a recap episode from beginning to end that explains everything.


I'm expecting jkeegan to do a complete analysis of the series after the final episode.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> As far as things-that-we've-seen-that-are-supposed-to-be-dead go, we saw Christian Shepherd, a horse, Charlie(off-island), Eko's brother, the black horse Kate saw, and others I'm sure that aren't popping to mind.. Just within that group, those each are very different.. (Christian Shepherd's body wasn't in the coffin, but Eko's brother's body was in the plane.. Charlie was off-island and seen by a mental patient that hallucinates, etc.


I don't think the smoke monster turns into manifestations of dead people -- I think those are hallucinations which we as viewers get to see along with the hallucinator.

Other manifestations were Hurley's invisible/imaginary friend Dave, as well as Locke's sweat lodge visions of Boone.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

bruinfan said:


> I hope when this is all over, we get a recap episode from beginning to end that explains everything.


I'm sure there'll be a recap right before the final episode, but I doubt after. What I think would be really cool (but I also doubt we'll get) would be to see everything that we've seen in chronological order.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

getreal said:


> I don't think the smoke monster turns into manifestations of dead people -- I think those are hallucinations which we as viewers get to see along with the hallucinator.
> 
> Other manifestations were Hurley's invisible/imaginary friend Dave, as well as Locke's sweat lodge visions of Boone.


I'm pretty sure the last two you mentioned were hallucinations, but the others, I believe were the smoke monster. It hasn't been said outright, but as jkeegan said, it strongly implied that the smoke monster turned into Eko's brother shortly before it killed him. Unless Eko hallucinated that he no longer saw the smoke monster when he hallucinated his brother, then both hallucinations ended again at the same time.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> I'm sure there'll be a recap right before the final episode, but I doubt after. What I think would be really cool (but I also doubt we'll get) would be to see everything that we've seen in chronological order.


I think seeing all of the flashbacks, forwards, and present clips would be very confusing. The flashbacks and flash-forwards are meant correlate with the stories in the "present" and I don't think a lot of them would be as meaningful or make a lot of sense.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'll bet that's not supposed to be anything at all. It also appears to say "125 N. King St, #C..." and "Phone (808) ..."
> 
> Those are both in Honolulu and therefore, it's probably just a real flyer that happened to be in the home they used for the set. Wasn't Miles' scene supposed to be in L.A.?


125 N. King Honolulu is a Chinese Restaurant


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> I believe Juliete and Ben when they say they don't know what the smoke monster is, but that they know it's afraid of their (previously, Dharma's) fence.


I think when Juliet hit the button by the fence, it turned on a giant "No Smoking" sign which prevented Ol' Smokey from crossing the line.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

5thcrewman said:


> 125 N. King Honolulu is a Chinese Restaurant


Suite #c is apparently "Photo & Sign":

http://honolulu.citysearch.com/profile/33682358/honolulu_hi/photo_sign.html

I tried identifying the date on the paper, but couldn't make it out. The article above and to the right of the headline ("Le lavage de cerveaux en liberté") is an actual article by Noam Chomsky from the August 2007 issue of Le Monde Diplomatique), the English version of which is here:

http://mondediplo.com/2007/08/02democracy


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bruinfan said:


> I hope when this is all over, we get a recap episode from beginning to end that explains everything.


I have a feeling that the last episode will mostly be a "Sixth Sense" style reveal with nothing but clips from earlier shows.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Wow! Nice find on the "Photo and Sign". So, apparently they just decorated the set with a few real pieces of paraphenalia they had hanging around...or, they actually shot inside someone's actual house. But, the address there is actually 135 N. King Street, so either the flyer says "135" and not "125", or this is just a coincidence.

Anyone in Hawaii who actually wants to call them up and ask them who the smoke monster is?


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> I'm sure there'll be a recap right before the final episode, but I doubt after. What I think would be really cool (but I also doubt we'll get) would be to see everything that we've seen in chronological order.


not neccessarily in chronological order, just a synopsis of every single thing explained... this is the smoke monster, this is the security, this is the way they all got on the same plane, this is why the sky turned purple, this is why they heard voices in the jungle.... like a super DVD commentary, but as a 5 hr episode on TV.


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## Mike Wells (Mar 9, 2000)

Any word from anywhere about the status of the podcast? I figured it was off due to the strike, but now that we're done with that... They've had two video podcasts, but I miss the producers chat after the show.

Regarding this episode... wow. I love it, but I also need to know more, now! What _is_ the smoke monster? What's with the photos?

Ah, good TV.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

bruinfan said:


> not neccessarily in chronological order, just a synopsis of every single thing explained... this is the smoke monster, this is the security, this is the way they all got on the same plane, this is why the sky turned purple, this is why they heard voices in the jungle.... like a super DVD commentary, but as a 5 hr episode on TV.


I get what you're saying, I'm talking about something entirely different. Basically every scene from the entire series spliced together in chronological order. Maybe it's just me, but I think it would be sorta cool.

And I certainly understand Fleegle's point about how the flashbacks tie in to the present-day scenes, I just think it would be a cool way to watch it after it's all over.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I'm expecting jkeegan to do a complete analysis of the series after the final episode.


 Nah, the mysteries will all be explained by then (we hope!)..


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> I don't think the smoke monster turns into manifestations of dead people -- I think those are hallucinations which we as viewers get to see along with the hallucinator.
> 
> Other manifestations were Hurley's invisible/imaginary friend Dave, as well as Locke's sweat lodge visions of Boone.


Kate was not the only one that saw the black horse (I think it was Sawyer that saw it too?). She also physically touched it and he witnessed that.

Dave is even more different than the other cases because he's imaginary, and was never alive/dead.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> I get what you're saying, I'm talking about something entirely different. Basically every scene from the entire series spliced together in chronological order. Maybe it's just me, but I think it would be sorta cool.
> 
> And I certainly understand Fleegle's point about how the flashbacks tie in to the present-day scenes, I just think it would be a cool way to watch it after it's all over.


If you haven't seen it yet, search for Lost The Synchronizing on youtube.. Very cool editing work.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Darn on the white vest! But I'm pretty sure I've seen Ben wear the white vest before, too. Oh well. Maybe it was another ABC promo shot or something ...

As far as the Flame and ordering food pallets - it is an assumption that with the Flame gone no food can be ordered. For all we know right now, with the communications down no food can be ordered either. Of course, as mentioned maybe it's not time. After all, how long would a 2 gallon tub of eternal ranch dressing last 2 people anyway? 

And I think Ben's man on the boat would be a complete surprise - how about Annie, from his Dharma days? We never did see what happened to her.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

NOT READING ALL THE PAGES. THREAD IS TOO LONG. SORRY IF THIS WAS SAID BEFORE.

I thought it was interesting after Ben read Charlotte Lewis's age, I found out that Rebecca Mader doesn't have a listed birthday and that she actually IS about as old as Ben said she was. I would have pegged her a couple of years older (probably from her role on that 3-episodes-long Lawyer show they had on Fox last year or the year before).


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> Darn on the white vest! But I'm pretty sure I've seen Ben wear the white vest before, too. Oh well. Maybe it was another ABC promo shot or something ...


While I don't recall Ben (or anyone) wearing a white vest, I did a quick search and discovered, on The Fuselage, a post describing Lost action figures made by McFarlane toys. The one for Sayid is described as follows: "Sayid's figure has him planting the antenna in the sand on the beach I think, as the fuselage is behind him.The figure is standing straight up,and is looking upwards. He is wearing his white vest costume with a watch on his left hand." Sayid has a white vest?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> Darn on the white vest! But I'm pretty sure I've seen Ben wear the white vest before, too. Oh well. Maybe it was another ABC promo shot or something ...
> 
> As far as the Flame and ordering food pallets - it is an assumption that with the Flame gone no food can be ordered. For all we know right now, with the communications down no food can be ordered either. Of course, as mentioned maybe it's not time. After all, how long would a 2 gallon tub of eternal ranch dressing last 2 people anyway?
> 
> And I think Ben's man on the boat would be a complete surprise - how about Annie, from his Dharma days? We never did see what happened to her.


He wore a vest in the scene at the ferry in "Live Together, Die Alone." It wasn't white though.

Annie - that would be pretty interesting.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TiVotion said:


> Wow! Nice find on the "Photo and Sign". So, apparently they just decorated the set with a few real pieces of paraphenalia they had hanging around...or, they actually shot inside someone's actual house. But, the address there is actually 135 N. King Street, so either the flyer says "135" and not "125", or this is just a coincidence.
> 
> Anyone in Hawaii who actually wants to call them up and ask them who the smoke monster is?


Looking at the flyer again, it does look like 135 now and not 125. Not sure if that's just my mind playing tricks on me, but it's blurry enough that it could be either one.

So my guess is that they just used a real flyer on someone's actual bulletin board. Had they placed it there intentionally for us to use as a clue, they'd have been more careful about obscuring the actual address which could be traced back to a real-life Honolulu business (when the scene was supposed to take place in Inglewood, California).

BTW, I'll be happy to call them in a few hours, but it's still pretty early in HI right now.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

BriGuy20 said:


> NOT READING ALL THE PAGES. THREAD IS TOO LONG. SORRY IF THIS WAS SAID BEFORE.


This thread is long? Dude. You didn't follow the Live Together, Die Alone thread. It caused such a buzz that we reached 1000 posts, the thread got closed. :-D

Greg


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Dave is even more different than the other cases because he's imaginary, and was never alive/dead.


Who's to say that Dave won't re-appear in a future episode as a real LIVE character, which would only deepen the mysterious connection with burly Hurley? And remember that bird in the forest that swept towards Hurley while screeching his name?  What was up with that?


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> If you haven't seen it yet, search for Lost The Synchronizing on youtube.. Very cool editing work.


Thanks for that tip. That was really well done.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Bryanmc said:


> Thanks for that tip. That was really well done.


I showed it to a friend who at the time hadn't yet completed season 3 (he was about 2-3 episodes from the end), and I happened to comment "I like that they kept that part up top where Jack was blank, instead of rearranging them".. (I'd said that because I thought it was cool that they had another clip of Jack's that was a few minutes ahead of that)..

HE said (misunderstanding what I meant): "Yeah, because we don't have flashbacks for that time slot yet!".. I had to bite my tongue to keep from mentioning the flashforwards and that we probably won't have any more flashbacks to fill that in..


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I need to post a retraction. I've posted a couple of times here that the TV news coverage of the sunken wreckage said that the wreckage was found two months after the crash...


This may be a bit of a smeek, but I didn't see this particular point. If our new pilot was supposed to be flying a commercial airliner for Oceanic from Sydney to Los Angeles, he's changed his life quite a bit in the time inbetween. Most commercial pilots don't seem to be grizzled with longish hair and clearly a drunk... Maybe he was already a drunk, but the hair? And the beard? And the job in the tropics?

It seems like a lot more time has past for him from almost flying 815 to his current state than the amount of time that has supposedly past for our island inhabitants...


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Vito the TiVo said:


> This may be a bit of a smeek, but I didn't see this particular point. If our new pilot was supposed to be flying a commercial airliner for Oceanic from Sydney to Los Angeles, he's changed his life quite a bit in the time inbetween. Most commercial pilots don't seem to be grizzled with longish hair and clearly a drunk... Maybe he was already a drunk, but the hair? And the beard? And the job in the tropics?
> 
> It seems like a lot more time has past for him from almost flying 815 to his current state than the amount of time that has supposedly past for our island inhabitants...


I could see it. He got banned from the flight for drinking, and went into a tailspin...quit his job with Oceanic, started his own business in the tropics to get away, kept drinking... Easily done within two months, I'd wager.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Looking at the flyer again, it does look like 135 now and not 125. Not sure if that's just my mind playing tricks on me, but it's blurry enough that it could be either one.
> 
> So my guess is that they just used a real flyer on someone's actual bulletin board. Had they placed it there intentionally for us to use as a clue, they'd have been more careful about obscuring the actual address which could be traced back to a real-life Honolulu business (when the scene was supposed to take place in Inglewood, California).
> 
> BTW, I'll be happy to call them in a few hours, but it's still pretty early in HI right now.


I called that business and it definitely was her flyer. Her name is Jenny Lauie and she does photo restoration. I mentioned that I'd seen her flyer on a TV show, thinking that she would have already had numerous calls and would simply confirm that it was her flyer, but she claims to have never heard of LOST and even asked me what channel it was on and what it was about. I volunteered to e-mail her a screen cap and she gladly accepted.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I called that business and it definitely was her flyer. Her name is Jenny Lauie and she does photo restoration. I mentioned that I'd seen her flyer on a TV show, thinking that she would have already had numerous calls and would simply confirm that it was her flyer, but she claims to have never heard of LOST and even asked me what channel it was on and what it was about. I volunteered to e-mail her a screen cap and she gladly accepted.


See if she can give us a clearer copy of the flyer! If she emails you a document, I'll host it, or if all she has is a hardcopy, someone's gotta have a good color scanner that can scan it for us (again, I'd host it). (not so much for data at this point, since it's a native flier, but who knows, maybe they picked that particular flier because it fit with the story.. (imagine one writer going up to another with a paper and going "check this out!"))..

It'd be one thing if it was just a clip for auto repair or something.. but it's photo restoration, and the thing making this scene so damned interesting is the photos on the wall...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I called that business and it definitely was her flyer. Her name is Jenny Lauie and she does photo restoration. I mentioned that I'd seen her flyer on a TV show, thinking that she would have already had numerous calls and would simply confirm that it was her flyer, but she claims to have never heard of LOST and even asked me what channel it was on and what it was about. I volunteered to e-mail her a screen cap and she gladly accepted.


BTW, if it was any place in the states other than Hawaii, I'd wonder if she was told to play dumb, having never heard of the show (with all of the advertising, etc).. But my wife and I spent three weeks in Hawaii, and I could see living there with no TV, internet, xbox, etc.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> If you haven't seen it yet, search for Lost The Synchronizing on youtube.. Very cool editing work.


Very cool. I hadn't even thought about stuff going on simultaneously like that.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> BTW, if it was any place in the states other than Hawaii, I'd wonder if she was told to play dumb, having never heard of the show (with all of the advertising, etc).. But my wife and I spent three weeks in Hawaii, and I could see living there with no TV, internet, xbox, etc.


I wondered that for a second as well, but she sounded like an older Asian lady (the address is in Honolulu's Chinatown) and her English was slightly broken. For those of us obsessed with TV, it's hard for us to imagine that someone wouldn't have heard of a popular TV show, but I think it's more common than we think.

I did ask her to send me a copy of the ad, so we'll see if I hear back from her.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jenhudson said:


> I could see it. He got banned from the flight for drinking, and went into a tailspin...quit his job with Oceanic, started his own business in the tropics to get away, kept drinking... Easily done within two months, I'd wager.


Yeah, the tailspin could have already begun before they replaced him for the flight (as a result of it). But, if it didn't happen like that, then Vito has a good point about the amount of time elapsed.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I called that business and it definitely was her flyer. Her name is Jenny Lauie and she does photo restoration. I mentioned that I'd seen her flyer on a TV show, thinking that she would have already had numerous calls and would simply confirm that it was her flyer, but she claims to have never heard of LOST and even asked me what channel it was on and what it was about. I volunteered to e-mail her a screen cap and she gladly accepted.


Oh my God, that's too cool. So...I guess that's why it kind of looked like "by Johnny Locke" on that flyer...it's "Jenny Lauie". The amazing part to me is, how many millions of people watch this show? And if she's telling the truth, nobody actually called before this? Granted, not everyone freeze frames the show looking for clues, but man...just thinking about how many people were exposed to that scene. And, you'd think when they were framing the scene and went back over it in editing, someone would have noticed that you could make out the address and phone number enough to track it down. The lady doesn't even realize she's famous. 

If you actually get that thing in the mail, you gotta scan it and post it. I guess just because it's real, doesn't mean it's not a clue. Maybe it was just a convenient clue.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Delta13 said:


> After all, how long would a 2 gallon tub of eternal ranch dressing last 2 people anyway?


Depends if Hurley is one of the two.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

From tv.com



> New details on the back-half of season four of Lost have surfaced in an interview of Cuse by TVGuide.com's Michael Ausiello. Cuse says that the five post-strike episodes--should they be completed--won't air immediately after the initial run of eight episodes, but will likely air after a four-week break.
> 
> As for the three episodes ordered for this season that could be lost to the strike, Cuse says he will make sure they are "made up" in some capacity, likely added to either season five or six.
> 
> ...


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

JYoung said:


> From tv.com


"Should they be completed" -- Well gosh, that really firms it up...


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

OK, 382 posts in and no one has brought up the thought that Miles isn't a ghost communicator? Funny, here's how I read the flashback scene: Miles worked with dead kid (and some others, hence his paranoid look into the rear view mirror) in the questionable dealing, and contacted the grandmother posing as a medium. Walked in, turn on the ghost-buster , and thought out loud about the kid, and remembered/noticed something to deduce where the money was. He then sarcastically 'tells' the ghost it can go now.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

That doesn't explain how he was able to learn from Naomi that the Losties were telling the truth...


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

MitchO said:


> OK, 382 posts in and no one has brought up the thought that Miles isn't a ghost communicator? Funny, here's how I read the flashback scene: Miles worked with dead kid (and some others, hence his paranoid look into the rear view mirror) in the questionable dealing, and contacted the grandmother posing as a medium. Walked in, turn on the ghost-buster , and thought out loud about the kid, and remembered/noticed something to deduce where the money was. He then sarcastically 'tells' the ghost it can go now.


I thought that as well--initially. But what about him "speaking" with dead Naomi? Unless she's not really dead, of course.


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Well, there's all sorts of plausible to implausible reasons: He's lying about the codeword, he could tell from body language, lucky guess, she's not really dead ... 

One thing we evidently do know: Miles can backwards talk. According to the Lost Easter Egg site linked earlier in the thread, that's what he's doing whe he's "speaking" with Naomi.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Hmm. Speaking of actors going on to do other things, I wonder what becomes of this entire multi-year, complex story if suddenly key actors were unavailable, or - perish the thought - were to unexpectedly die? When you're talking about a show that spans 6, 8, 10 years and essentially knows it has a beginning, a middle, and an end...anything can happen.

Would people be able to accept a replacement Jack, Kate, Sawyer, etc? Or would it end up being Bobby Ewing in the shower all over again?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> Hmm. Speaking of actors going on to do other things, I wonder what becomes of this entire multi-year, complex story if suddenly key actors were unavailable, or - perish the thought - were to unexpectedly die? When you're talking about a show that spans 6, 8, 10 years and essentially knows it has a beginning, a middle, and an end...anything can happen.
> 
> Would people be able to accept a replacement Jack, Kate, Sawyer, etc? Or would it end up being Bobby Ewing in the shower all over again?


I would be hard to accept a replacement character if it is contract related. As for death, illness, etc., I'd cut them plenty of slack and try to go with the flow.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

MitchO said:


> One thing we evidently do know: Miles can backwards talk. According to the Lost Easter Egg site linked earlier in the thread, that's what he's doing whe he's "speaking" with Naomi.


So he goes back in time until she was still alive and asks her then? And it sounds like backwards talk to us as he's moving?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

TiVotion said:


> Hmm. Speaking of actors going on to do other things, I wonder what becomes of this entire multi-year, complex story if suddenly key actors were unavailable, or - perish the thought - were to unexpectedly die?


The Sopranos dealt with it when the woman playing Tony's mother died.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

MitchO said:


> OK, 382 posts in and no one has brought up the thought that Miles isn't a ghost communicator? Funny, here's how I read the flashback scene: Miles worked with dead kid (and some others, hence his paranoid look into the rear view mirror) in the questionable dealing, and contacted the grandmother posing as a medium. Walked in, turn on the ghost-buster , and thought out loud about the kid, and remembered/noticed something to deduce where the money was. He then sarcastically 'tells' the ghost it can go now.


When he asks the ghost where it is, something falls over by the bookshelf (sounds like a baseball or something).. He walks over to where it fell, and moves the bookshelf/painting/whatever it was.

So, at least something fell.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Did anyone see the "enhanced" re-airing of this episode today on 2/14 at 8pm? Did it reveal/clarify anything?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

It doesn't have to be lazy. No-one here is suggesting that these merged/leaked elements of alternate timelines are everywhere. It has also been suggested that the merge/leak occurred precisely when Desmond engaged the fail safe, so anything in the story before that cannot be undone.

So far we have the picture frames and the plane crash . The frames are pretty obvious, the plane crash still may be just a hoax. There are probably other elements as well but, so far, the only one that has had significant impact on the story is the one that is still up in the air (or down on the bottom of the ocean).

I don't think it needs to be lazy at all.



jeff125va said:


> The problem I have with the whole alternate timelines explanation for everything is that it allows any plot hole to be explained away by saying that it occurred in any one of an infinite number of alternate timelines. It's about as lazy as saying that an entire season of a show was someone's dream. I'm not saying that it couldn't be correct, but the whole idea is based on pure conjecture at this point. I mean, someone _could_ have predicted after the first episode that "The Monster" was a cloud of black smoke, but would that have really been a well thought-out analysis or just a wild guess that just happened to turn out to be correct? I have yet to see a single coherent explanation as to why alternate timelines would be the _only_ explanation for any given phenomenon that has occurred in the show; just a bunch of "that could be in an alternate timeline" explanations for individual things. Well, yeah, they all could. Every episode could be a different timeline. There's no proving or disproving any of it.
> 
> I just don't get why people are so anxious to jump to the most unlikely explanation, when so many of the details in this show have been so neatly tied together over multiple seasons. What good is it that after 60-some episodes, we finally found out how Locke lost the use of his legs, if there's still the possibility that what we saw occurred in an "alternate timeline" where Locke didn't even take the trip to Australia?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Did anyone see the "enhanced" re-airing of this episode today on 2/14 at 8pm? Did it reveal/clarify anything?


I watched about half of it. The comments were few and far between. It didn't have anything at all to say during Miles' ghostbusting scenes.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> Huh? Did they not provide enough rational explanation as to why she'd be exercising caution? Their mission was to get Ben. Naomi gave them a coded warning. I'm not sure I see the significance, other than a bit of foreshadowing.


Unless the suggestion is that she *didn't* find her vest before she jumped out. The helicopter is pretty much out of control and going down. They push Faraday (IIRC) out of the chopper, almost against his will. In all that confusion she has time to find the vest, take off parachute and jacket, put the vest, jacket and parachute back on and then jump out?

Of course, perhaps in all that confusion she *thought* she didn't have it, but she did. Or she could have grabbed it to take along with her, then put it on when on the Island.

Or it could be another one of those weir and whacky alternate/changed timelines.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

wprager said:


> Unless the suggestion is that she *didn't* find her vest before she jumped out. The helicopter is pretty much out of control and going down. They push Faraday (IIRC) out of the chopper, almost against his will. In all that confusion she has time to find the vest, take off parachute and jacket, put the vest, jacket and parachute back on and then jump out?
> 
> Of course, perhaps in all that confusion she *thought* she didn't have it, but she did. Or she could have grabbed it to take along with her, then put it on when on the Island.
> 
> Or it could be another one of those weir and whacky alternate/changed timelines.


I don't really remember the scene, but she could have been talking about a life preserver vest, not her body armor. The heilo is going down, possibly over water for all she knows.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

wprager said:


> Unless the suggestion is that she *didn't* find her vest before she jumped out. The helicopter is pretty much out of control and going down. They push Faraday (IIRC) out of the chopper, almost against his will. In all that confusion she has time to find the vest, take off parachute and jacket, put the vest, jacket and parachute back on and then jump out?
> 
> Of course, perhaps in all that confusion she *thought* she didn't have it, but she did. Or she could have grabbed it to take along with her, then put it on when on the Island.
> 
> Or it could be another one of those weir and whacky alternate/changed timelines.


The post I was responding to was suggesting that she "knew", as though by psychic ability, that she was going to get shot.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jenny responded to me and sent me a copy of her ad. Here it is:


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

That's awesome. If it didn't have the HI info on it, I'd have sworn it was just a set decoration. Looks very made-for-LOST, doesn't it?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Jenny responded to me and sent me a copy of her ad. Here it is:


Does the guy in the "together" photo have only 1 leg?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Jenny responded to me and sent me a copy of her ad. Here it is:





stalemate said:


> Does the guy in the "together" photo have only 1 leg?


No, you can see in the photo of him by himself, his other leg is propped up on the fence, so in the together photo, the girl is just in front of his leg.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> When the picture of the pilot popped up on screen, I said "holy cow, what is Matt Parkman doing on the plane?"


Pish. This whole "Oceanic pilot" gig was just an undercover job for Eric Weiss, soon followed by his undercover gig as a psychic policeman. That's what it takes to bring down SD6! 



jkeegan said:


> * If you were on an island, stranded, with limited supplies, would you REALLY fire three precious irreplaceable bullets just to let Miles and Dan know you were there, instead of screaming "HANDS UP!!!", or maybe firing just one?


These are not the most logical people you've ever met. And The Island Will Provide.


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