# TIVO Series 3 lite vs Today's TIVO S3



## dtsfanohio (Nov 5, 2006)

Ok.. need expert advice... Tivo has announced a TIVO S3 lite for the Fall 2007, cheaper, etc.

Does anyone have an idea what this unit will be like vs the current one?

Better to wait for this unit vs the $200 rebate deal?

Thanks


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

As far as I know there has not been an official anouncement, nor an official release date. However, it has been mentioned in many analyst's meetings by TIVO officials.

It will have to be differentiated in some way. Maybe only one tuner. Maybe a smaller HD.

IMHO the current S3 is already configured on the light side and I don't think I'd be happy with anything lighter.

Chances are you'd only save $100 - $150 over the current offer for the S3.

Go for it! You'll enjoy the current product for six months while you'd otherwise be just waiting for the unknown.


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## PopcornGuy (Apr 6, 2007)

Everyone keeps writing about how they could make the current S3 "lite".

WHAT IF: The current unmodified version of the S3 becomes the "lite" version. The price is already coming down and by fall it could be in the talked about "lite" price range where a big group of consumers would jump in. How would they make the standard S3 BETTER?
Bigger hard drive?
Built-in wireless?
What else? (no cracks about pixelation or cablecard issues, please)


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## supasta (May 6, 2006)

Official announcement was this morning.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/31/tivo-announces-q1-profit-series-3-lite-comcast-motorola-tivo/


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Good thought. I hope you're right.

Other added features for the new "heavy" (other than the obvious, but problematic MRV and TTG):

3 tuners
QAM tuner guide support
cablecard-M support
1080p output


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## dtsfanohio (Nov 5, 2006)

supasta said:


> Official announcement was this morning.
> 
> This is the link/info I was referring to... thanks for posting.


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## quarkman97 (Nov 18, 2002)

jrm01 said:


> As far as I know there has not been an official anouncement, nor an official release date. However, it has been mentioned in many analyst's meetings by TIVO officials.
> 
> It will have to be differentiated in some way. Maybe only one tuner. Maybe a smaller HD.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree.

I don't see Tivo S3 "lite" being cheaper than the current S3 price of $400 AR at amazon.

I bet it'll be in the $300-$400 range at launch, have less features than the current one, and it'll take about a year or so to get it down to the $200-ish price range.

I'm on the fence as well. I'd like to pull the trigger, but no MRV is a dealbreaker. Plus there isn't a ton of HD content on right now. Maybe in the Fall. The price can only get lower.

I agree with the other poster that the current S3 was WAY too bloated. I think they wanted to make a statement, but if you take off the LED display, THX certification, you could cut the costs pretty easily.


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## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

Right, I'm not entirely clear on what features they could actually remove from the S3 and still have it be worthwhile. The only thing I can think of would be reducing it to a single tuner and maybe a smaller hard drive... but 250GB drives are pretty darn cheap these days.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

PopcornGuy said:


> WHAT IF: The current unmodified version of the S3 becomes the "lite" version.


That's a sensible idea, but it's not what's happening.


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## supasta (May 6, 2006)

Anyone want to bet on whether or not the "Lite" version will have MRV?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

supasta said:


> Anyone want to bet on whether or not the "Lite" version will have MRV?


If it doesn't use CableCards, you can bet it will.


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## dtsfanohio (Nov 5, 2006)

whats MRV?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

No way it doesn't use cable cards but I would guess that OTA is gone. the low end guy gets all his hd via cable. Just my speculation.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

my guess is it will be more on par with the cable dvr's. Dual tuner, 160gig drive, not thx certified, stuff like that. More of a generic one. My guess is it will sell for 199-249. The burning question is will cable labs get a standard out there for 2 way coms before tivo releases this. If not, is tivo going to upgrade these dvr's yearly? id be more inclined to spend 199 every year or 2 for some added features.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I hope this "Lite" unit can somehow fix or be equipped to deal with the SDV threat since that is one big obstacle for adoption by people in the know. If speculation is true that OTA support is removed then this makes it that much more vulnerable to SDV since there is no fallback to OTA to keep the unit useful should some/all your cable channels go away. I was willing to take the SDV risk on my S3 knowing that I could learn to live with OTA only should worst case SDV happen.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

well, from reading this, the standard is going to be m-cards. Anything deployed after 7-07 should support them. I dont see why the new tivo would not support M-cards. Good news for us. This will support interactive tv, vod and sdv.

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=124953&site=cdn


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I thought the M-cards just meant multistream (ie. two cards in one) that does not mean 2-way communication. They could at least put the hardware in the new S3 to handle upstream communications. That way they can add support if there ever is a standard for SDV.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I thought the M-cards just meant multistream (ie. two cards in one) that does not mean 2-way communication.


Correct.

Existing CableCards already support 2-way communication. It is the receiver (and software) in the Series3 that does not.

The primary benefit of MCARDs is that it eliminates the need for a second CableCard, so you get the full benefits of the Tivo Series3 with a single card.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

My thoughts on standard vs. lite models:

- new standard model to replace the current S3 will include built-in wireless and include a 500 to 750GB hard drive.

- new lite model will have a single CableCARD slot (but still have dual tuners), no front-panel controls (but keep the recording displays), no THX, 250GB hard drive, no phone connection (Ethernet only) or USB-only with a choice of wired or wireless adapters like the S2), and drops the antenna input. It may have a reduced number of outputs - perhaps just component plus HDMI (and maybe not even HDMI) but no composite. It will have to keep the optical out for 5.1 so that has to stay. It may also be missing some software features like the Music, Photos and More stuff. No eSATA port.

We'll see in 6 months how close I am...

.../Ed


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

The S3s cannot, by license, contain the upstream transmitter hardware...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4753310&&#post4753310


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## Greeble (Dec 5, 2006)

Maybe the lite will only be able to decode Mpeg2 and not h.264 and the MS format.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

davecramer74 said:


> well, from reading this, the standard is going to be m-cards. Anything deployed after 7-07 should support them.


7-07 is the separable security requirement. Any CableCARD does the trick, doesn't have to be a "M-Card." Also this requirement pertains to most cable operators, not TiVo. Though I imagine anything they build at this time would support CableCARDs, though it probably would be the most expensive part of a "Lite" box.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

well from readin that arcticle, it seems there is some kind of standard in place hardware wise. It explicitly states that they will support interactive and VOD. Why wouldnt tivo follow suit with their upcoming box? it would seem logical that they do.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Dave, see post #20.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

ya i caught that, but the new one isnt going to be an s3 is it? If their new box is bi-directional, not unidirectional, it wouldnt fall under that umbrella would it?

So your essentially saying, this box is going to be unidirectional. that sucks.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

did a post just got deleted?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

davecramer74 said:


> ya i caught that, but the new one isnt going to be an s3 is it? If their new box is bi-directional, not unidirectional, it wouldnt fall under that umbrella would it?


Note that the only device type that allows bi-directional comm is the fourth type OpenCable Host (or some name like that) which requires the host device to relinquish user interface to the cable operator. At least it required it last year, maybe it changed.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

well, you can read about it here...

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

i guess im not understanding is why the new tivo wouldnt be a open cable 2.0 device. Anyone have a contact with any of the tivo developers that visit this site to answer what type of device the new one will be? wouldnt it make sense to make this a open cable 2.0 device?


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

ah30k said:


> The S3s cannot, by regulation, contain the upstream transmitter hardware...
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4753310&&#post4753310


It's a license agreement ... not a regulation.

And UDCPs can (technically) contain hardware capable of upstream communication ... and still be complaint with the DFAST license ... they just can't actually use it (to try and communicate upstream via the cable plant). Something that was brought up a few times at the FCC. CEA / IT / PC groups (including Tivo if memory serves) were concerned that the DFAST license terms could be broadly used to exclude any product with DOCSIS modems and other hardware that could _potentially_ be used for upstream communications. NCTA clarified this several times. For example:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6514082191


> While it is true that the MOU and DFAST agreements are limited to "unidirectional devices" that do not utilize the return path of the system, (...) the proposal does not prohibit compliant TVs or other devices with a cable modem in the housing.


That being said ...


HiDefGator said:


> They could at least put the hardware in the new S3 to handle upstream communications.


is not some simplistic "slap in a couple chips just in case" exercise that many people seem to think / envision.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Thanks for the update dt_dc. I knew my info may have been a little dated.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

davecramer74 said:


> wouldnt it make sense to make this a open cable 2.0 device?


No. Not unless you're just interested in selling hardware.

Same issues as always ... an OpenCable (two-way) host isn't going to run Tivo software ... with Tivo functionality (unless the cable company has made a deal with Tivo). It's going to run the DVR software and guide provided by your cable company. So unless you're Samsung or Panasonic and just want to sell boxes ... no, it really wouldn't make sense for Tivo to make a two-way host. Then again, if Tivo makes a deal with the cable company to provide their software well ... it'll run on those Samsung and Panasonic boxes so ... again, not much sense in Tivo making an OpenCable (two-way) host. And, OpenCable (two-way) hosts aren't going to be supported on the majority of cable plants untill sometime in the unspecified future anway so ... again, no, it really wouldn't make sense for Tivo to make a two-way host.


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## mikesown (Nov 15, 2005)

Making a tivo series3 lite would be easy. Just:
- Eliminate the OTA tuner(most people use cablecards anyway)
- Eliminate analog cable tuner(again, who uses this?)
- Lower the hard drive space

I would not strip a tuner out, as this is becomming a necessity for DVRs as a lot of shows play at the same time. This would yield a perfect DVR which could be subsidized to be very cheap, and maybe even free(with rebates, and commitments).


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> No. Not unless you're just interested in selling hardware.
> 
> Same issues as always ... an OpenCable (two-way) host isn't going to run Tivo software ... with Tivo functionality (unless the cable company has made a deal with Tivo).


which it seems tivo opted to just put their software on the cable devices instead of going with the opencable standard. ok, thanks dt, that clears some things up. Not that im happy with the clearity.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

With SDV on the horizon I would hope they aren't making another box that can't possibly work with it. If that is harder than slapping in some more chips than so be it. It has to be done.


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> With SDV on the horizon I would hope they aren't making another box that can't possibly work with it. If that is harder than slapping in some more chips than so be it. It has to be done.


Given that every vendor has a different mechanism for SDV, this is very unlikely without substantial partnership with TWC, Comcast, etc. I don't really see it happening.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

davecramer74 said:


> which it seems tivo opted to just put their software on the cable devices instead of going with the opencable standard. ok, thanks dt, that clears some things up. Not that im happy with the clearity.


Tivo / Comcast / Cox have said that they are using the TVWorks TVNav middleware platform. Using TVNav allows them to build an app they can deploy to existing, already deployed boxes today ... and (should) allow then to (somewhat easily) port that to something that can be deployed on OCAP based OpenCable two-way hosts. An "OnRamp to OCAP" (seriously, that's what it's called) approach ... Tivo's following a path that will allow them to sell their software to the cable companies to be deployed on those OCAP based OpenCable two-way hosts from Samsung, Panasonic, et. al. Those boxes and services, however, are still a ways from getting realistically widely deployed. Happening ... but ... slowly.

So yes, Tivo is following a path that will allow them to go with the OpenCable standard ...

However, for a box from Tivo ... expected to be running Tivo software and such ... ie, the "S3 Lite" ... it just doesn't make much sense (at this point) to make it an OpenCable two-way host ...


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

mikesown said:


> Making a tivo series3 lite would be easy. Just:
> - Eliminate the OTA tuner(most people use cablecards anyway)
> - Eliminate analog cable tuner(again, who uses this?)


FCC requirements ...


> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-225A1.pdf
> 
> §15.123 Labeling of Digital Cable Ready Products.
> (a) The requirements of this section shall apply to unidirectional digital cable products.
> ...


Also, the CableLabs UDCP requirements require analog cable reception.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

davecramer74 said:


> well from readin that arcticle, it seems there is some kind of standard in place hardware wise. It explicitly states that they will support interactive and VOD.


The article could be mistaken.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> With SDV on the horizon I would hope they aren't making another box that can't possibly work with it.


Remember, this is S3-lite, not S4. So don't expect it to have any capabilities that the S3 doesn't have. Indications are that this will not be a wholly new design, but rather a cost-reduced version of the current design.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

mikesown said:


> Making a tivo series3 lite would be easy. Just:
> - Eliminate the OTA tuner(most people use cablecards anyway)
> - Eliminate analog cable tuner(again, who uses this?)
> - Lower the hard drive space


^^^ so how does this differ from a Cable DVR, other than the Tivo UI?

Yuk, not IMO - I say keep dual OTA tuners and drop the CC crapola. Heck give it an HDMI input if you want to record cable or DBS. and boost the HD to 500 gb while keeping eSata too.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

rmassey said:


> ^^^ so how does this differ from a Cable DVR, other than the Tivo UI?


I don't know why it would need to.


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## SC0TLANDF0REVER (Dec 9, 2001)

dtsfanohio said:


> whats MRV?


*M*ulti
*R*oom
*V*iewing

On Series 2s you could transfer shows from one TiVo to another for viewing.
It was a slow process (same time if not slower) although completely useful to those of use with multiple TiVos in the house - LR/BR/Basement/Shower


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## maynerd (May 7, 2004)

Isn't comcast 'testing' these tivo boxes in some markets? Doesn't anyone have one of them?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

quarkman97 said:


> Iif you take off the LED display, THX certification, you could cut the costs pretty easily.


How much can the display possibly cost?



mikesown said:


> - Eliminate analog cable tuner(again, who uses this?)


Um, everyone who's not on an all-digital system... which I think is still most cable users.

I think almost all of the "how to make an S3 Lite" suggestions I've seen, here and in other threads, are terrible, won't work, and wouldn't save any money. What they'll actually do, I can't guess.


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## sirfergy (May 18, 2002)

I just wish they made a Series2 that could handle cablecard. There is so little HD content out there it'd be cool if they had a device that would work for people who just have cable boxes and SDTVs that don't want to deal with IR transmitters and want dual tuners.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

maybe it is an S3 but in a card board box instead of a metal case. held togather by tape. no manual. no free cables.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

sirfergy said:


> I just wish they made a Series2 that could handle cablecard. There is so little HD content out there it'd be cool if they had a device that would work for people who just have cable boxes and SDTVs that don't want to deal with IR transmitters and want dual tuners.


That wouldn't make any sense. Rogers talk about the box the whole time has been to allow them to participate in HD at a reasonable price. I'd would even say that thee current S2DT will be the last SD box we'll see out of Tivo.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

bicker said:


> Remember, this is S3-lite, not S4. So don't expect it to have any capabilities that the S3 doesn't have.


Why? The S2 has capabilities the S3 doesn't have... (TTG, MRV.) There are plenty of examples where a newer, cheaper product line leapfrogs the previous (more expensive) generation with some better features.

The Apple iBook had internal Wi-Fi before the the (much) more expensive PowerBook...


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

sirfergy said:


> There is so little HD content out there


LOL

Au contraire, mon frere!

There's quite a bit out there. Glad I have a 750 GB S3 with which to enjoy it.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

bicker said:


> I don't know why it would need to.


well in that case, just rent the CCo DVR for $10/mo and save a boatload of cash. No Tivo UI, but still.....


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

maynerd said:


> Isn't comcast 'testing' these tivo boxes in some markets? Doesn't anyone have one of them?


There not Tivo boxes, but motorola and SA dvr's running the Tivo software.

ajwees41


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

mrmike said:


> Given that every vendor has a different mechanism for SDV, this is very unlikely without substantial partnership with TWC, Comcast, etc. I don't really see it happening.


To my knowledge, there's only _one_ provider of switched digital video gear... Scientific Atlanta (a.k.a. Cisco.) And they claim it's an open standard, however all I've been able to find is the name of the document. (even the mighty Google hasn't spotted the actual spec.)

SDV isn't technically "video on demand", so a good lawyer might be able to squeek past the UDCP licensing requirements. Once there's a modulator, that is.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

mikesown said:


> - Eliminate the OTA tuner(most people use cablecards anyway)
> - Eliminate analog cable tuner(again, who uses this?)


Ok, I've seen this far too many times... the OTA tuner _*IS*_ the cable tuner. No one makes QAM only demodulators. (because, as dt_dc quoted, the FCC requires digital cable tuners to have broadcast tuners.)

Analog cable tuning is required by both Cable Labs and the FCC... the EBS alert channel is analog. Nobody includes it in the channel list; TW/Raleigh it's channel 125.

About the only way to assemble a S3 cheaper is... a) put a smaller drive in it, but that really limits it's usefullness and is only a marginal cost reduction -- hard drives get cheaper every day. b) drop the thx certification. That's an expensive logo with next to zero return. c) lose the oled display -- it's nice and all, but it's definately not free. You'll notice, eSATA isn't on the chopping block... because it won't save anything; it's a piece of plastic (the connector) and a hole in the back plate. It's not like there's 100$ in chips for that eSATA port.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Fofer said:


> Why?


Because that isn't the stated intention of the S3-lite device.



Fofer said:


> The S2 has capabilities the S3 doesn't have... (TTG, MRV.)


That was not TiVo's intent.



Fofer said:


> There are plenty of examples where a newer, cheaper product line leapfrogs the previous (more expensive) generation with some better features.


Absolutely. There is no reason to believe this will be one of those cases. There is no indication that this will be a new product line -- all that TiVo is said is that it will be a cost-reduced version of the S3.

Look, I don't care if you get your hopes up only to see them dashed by reality. Just don't complain about it when it happens.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

rmassey said:


> well in that case, just rent the CCo DVR for $10/mo and save a boatload of cash. No Tivo UI, but still.....


However, that's exactly the angle that TiVo can market to -- those folks who want to stop the $10/mo fee (reducing it down to just $3/mo). If the S3-lite is inexpensive enough up-front, a lot of people may jump at the chance to reduce their contribution to their cable company's bottom line, just out of spite if nothing else.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

bicker said:


> However, that's exactly the angle that TiVo can market to -- those folks who want to stop the $10/mo fee (reducing it down to just $3/mo).


Huh?

I must have missed something here. Whether you buy a TiVo for $50 or for $800, right now you can't avoid a monthly fee *much much* higher than $3. I see monthly plans of $13, $15, $17. I see prepaid of $15 or $8.3.

Where is this $3/mo number coming from???


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

I skimmed through this post, so excuse me if I missed this. Tivo could drop the external eSATA connector. Sure, it wouldn't save them much money, but I think their "lite" version must be very different from the "regular" S3. Perhaps they'll drop cable card support and add back in cable box control. Drop the front buttons and OLED. Drop OTA tuner. Now you have a nice "starter" HD box for those on a budget, and you could still work on convincing people to move up to the regular S3 instead. A bit of bait and switch.

I will say that it's funny to me that all of this is about the cost of the box, rather than the expense of the service, which is basically the same across the board. I think Tivo should offer 2 SERVICE levels. The "Lite" level could leave out certain features, maybe less guide data, etc. Sure they'd have to be careful not to cannibalize their "regular" service, but it could be possible. Get people hooked on the $5/mo "lite" service and then work on selling them something better.

Just a thought or two.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

Re monthly fee: - I currently pay $5.99 for DVR service with D*. The Tivo S3 3yr pre-pay option is $8.31/mo, so +$2.32 - big deal. if you want to record with a CE device, you have to pay for the service. Plus w/ the pre-pay, it locks you into a fixed rate with no chance for an increase during the 3 yrs. You can bet that's not the case with DBS or cable.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

cramer said:


> To my knowledge, there's only _one_ provider of switched digital video gear... Scientific Atlanta (a.k.a. Cisco.) And they claim it's an open standard, however all I've been able to find is the name of the document. (even the mighty Google hasn't spotted the actual spec.)


In addition to Scientific Atlanta / Cisco ... BigBand, Tandberg (being aquired by Ericsson), C-Cor, Harmonic, and Motorola (partly through some aquisitions) are all in the SDV space ... probably more ... or maybe less ... hard to keep up with all the aquisitions. For example, I seem to remember RGB Networks (which Comcast's investment arm, Comcast Interactive Capital, has put money into) being in the space too.

BigBand is probably the most linked to SDV. Been talking about it forever ... focused on it while other vendors were pitching other bandwidth enhancements as preferable ... with the CableVision deal, the largest announced deployment (most other cable companies are being rather cagey about vendor-specifics).

Oh, and several claim "open" standards ... in fact, they argue over who has the most "open" standard ... and most portable ... and most efficient ... and, well, just about any other checkbox / attribute that a salesman / vendor can argue about:
http://www.lightreading.com/blog.asp?blog_sectionid=397&site=cdn


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

mikesown said:


> - Eliminate the OTA tuner(most people use cablecards anyway)
> - Eliminate analog cable tuner(again, who uses this?)...


I use "BOTH"....and I'm sure I'm not alone.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bmgoodman said:


> I skimmed through this post, so excuse me if I missed this. Tivo could drop the external eSATA connector. Sure, it wouldn't save them much money, but I think their "lite" version must be very different from the "regular" S3. Perhaps they'll drop cable card support and add back in cable box control. Drop the front buttons and OLED. Drop OTA tuner. Now you have a nice "starter" HD box for those on a budget, and you could still work on convincing people to move up to the regular S3 instead. A bit of bait and switch.
> 
> I will say that it's funny to me that all of this is about the cost of the box, rather than the expense of the service, which is basically the same across the board. I think Tivo should offer 2 SERVICE levels. The "Lite" level could leave out certain features, maybe less guide data, etc. Sure they'd have to be careful not to cannibalize their "regular" service, but it could be possible. Get people hooked on the $5/mo "lite" service and then work on selling them something better.
> 
> Just a thought or two.


You must have cable card support as you can't record (at a reasonable price) HD using an external Cable Co HD box feeding a TiVo.


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## snathanb (Sep 13, 2006)

dt_dc said:


> In addition to Scientific Atlanta / Cisco ... BigBand, Tandberg (being aquired by Ericsson), C-Cor, Harmonic, and Motorola (partly through some aquisitions) are all in the SDV space ... probably more ... or maybe less ... hard to keep up with all the aquisitions. For example, I seem to remember RGB Networks (which Comcast's investment arm, Comcast Interactive Capital, has put money into) being in the space too.
> 
> BigBand is probably the most linked to SDV. Been talking about it forever ... focused on it while other vendors were pitching other bandwidth enhancements as preferable ... with the CableVision deal, the largest announced deployment (most other cable companies are being rather cagey about vendor-specifics).
> 
> ...


SDV is just a fancy name for a video-based application that uses IGMP (Internet Group Messaging protocol). And there are standards in place for IGMP. And lots and lots of equipment on the market for that.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

snathanb said:


> SDV is just a fancy name for a video-based application that uses IGMP (Internet Group Messaging protocol). And there are standards in place for IGMP. And lots and lots of equipment on the market for that.


It is all of the messaging protocols between the STB and the headend that we are talking about here not simple network protocols.


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## Lensman (Dec 22, 2001)

They could just not include an HDMI cable and knock $89.95 off the retail price.    

Heck, for the price conscious they could eliminate all cables.

I agree with those who think they'll lop off the OTA tuner, the network connector (and MRV and TTG), and maybe to go one cablecard slot. Oh, also a cheaper remote.

While they're at it they could make it ugly and made from cheap injection molded plastic.

To reduce reliability, they could eliminate the fan too.

Wait, they could just get Motorola to make the devices!


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

> Wait, they could just get Motorola to make the devices!


EXACTLY my point....vvvv



> ^^^ so how does this differ from a Cable DVR, other than the Tivo UI?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Where is this $3/mo number coming from???


I think you need to understand just how angry some people are at their cable company. They would far prefer to give $8.60 per month to TiVo plus $2.75 per month to Comcast than give $13.75 per month to Comcast. Not me... but those folks are out there. (I'll be glad to provide you links to some Bash Comcast threads if you'd like. )


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

dt_dc said:


> Tivo's following a path that will allow them to sell their software to the cable companies to be deployed on those OCAP based OpenCable two-way hosts from Samsung, Panasonic, et. al.


 I know of no official statement from Tivo that they have any near or long term goal for a port to OCAP.

Do you? (If no, any positive sounding hand waves that they might?)

The only thing I read was that they theoretically might run on OCAP boxes, only they wouldn't be using OCAP, but a lower level api. In this case, I wonder if Tivo will also have access to an api for 2 way functionality (for VOD and switched video) that they will on the Moto boxes.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Just as a thought experiment, what do you think is the most cut to the bone HD Tivo that could practically be sold? Here's what I came up with- Only thing I don't think can be cut is dual tuners.


No OTA- 
No Analog encoders. Digital Cable recording only.
Two digital tuners- can do record two stations.
No MPEG4 capability. Deletes the 7041 decoder chip.
No eSata- though sold with a single drive, a second sata connector will be available on the board, and sufficient space will remain inside allowing unsupported upgrade to dual internal drives via third party outfits like PVRupgrade or Weaknees.
Series 2 low end remote and box. No sprigs of parsley. Just the meat and potatoes.
No second card slot. Supports an Mcard if locally available. Otherwise, it becomes a single tuner box. 
120GB hard drive. Assume users will upgrade if they really want to do HD.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Just as a thought experiment, what do you think is the most cut to the bone HD Tivo that could practically be sold? Here's what I came up with- Only thing I don't think can be cut is dual tuners.
> 
> 
> No OTA-
> ...


To reiterate what others have suggested in this thread and past S3 threads:


 QAM/OTA functionality is provided by a single, low-cost chip.

 This isn't going to fly, for the same reasons noted by dt_dc in this post.

 Broadcom's newer, low-cost solutions for DVR functionality all integrate MPEG-4 capability. As far as I know, there isn't anyone selling a new, low-cost chip for DVRs without integrated MPEG-4 capability.
I think some people misunderstand what Tivo is trying to do with the Series3 Lite. Most of the cost savings is the result of internal redesign with newer components, not feature elimination. The current Tivo Series3 design is almost three years old, and it has remained largely unchanged since release. Since that time, a number of vendors have released newer, more-integrated parts that reduce BOM cost.


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## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

If that's the case, then won't it be _replacing_ the current S3? It won't really be a S3 lite, it'll be the new S3.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Well yeah BK. I think you nailed the analysis back in March. I'm just having fun. My purpose was to take the subractive mode of thinking and pushing it to the max to see how far it could go.

I don't think it is likely, but if you look at it, DT's note only regarded labelling. Such a product could not be labelled Digital cable ready. Ok- is that marketting death? I dunno. I have a few boxes that don't say intel inside, and I could care less. I have "monitors" that aren't "Tv"'s because they don't have tuners and I could care less.

Anyway, besides that one, there are a couple of other models that are unlikely, but you know just to continue the out of the S3 box thinking... just for fun... 

The S3 lite is a cheaper box due to volume of production of the entire unit. Moto sells their Cablecard HD DVR with Tivo software that has all the features missing from the Comcast/Cox implementation.
S3 lite is really not an S3 minus but an S2 plus (That is, a DT with a cablecard slot and a single digital tuner). Mostly analog, with the capability to record one HD at a time. Ok. Unlikely, but what the heck.
The S3 actually was little more than the S3-lite described above- an S2 design with HD bolted on. It shipped because it worked. The S3 lite is actually is what the S3 would have been if Tivo believed their were going to be boatloads of $1000 HD's being sold in 2007. So, same feature set as the S3 minus some cosmetic features and is cheaper to produce, lower chip count, uses BMC7401 etc. The S3 goes away, entirely replaced by the S3-lite.
Variation of 3: the S3 lite is marketted as a lite version, but it is lite not because of subtraction, but lite because of addition to the S3. The current S3 retains the polish, uses the S3 lite lower chip count design, but adds an image enhancement chip such as the silicon optix reon you advocate, and uses the higher mhz BCM7400. 

Personally, I think it would be super smart to add something like a silicon optix chip to both because of the improvement of SD shows. That is something the video distributors don't want to do with their DVRs because they want folks ponying up for the HD programming on the premium channels.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> [*]Variation of 3: the S3 lite is marketted as a lite version, but it is lite not because of subtraction, but lite because of addition to the S3. The current S3 retains the polish, uses the S3 lite lower chip count design, but adds an image enhancement chip such as the silicon optix reon you advocate, and uses the higher mhz BCM7400.
> [/list]
> 
> Personally, I think it would be super smart to add something like a silicon optix chip to both because of the improvement of SD shows. That is something the video distributors don't want to do with their DVRs because they want folks ponying up for the HD programming on the premium channels.


That was all wishful thinking on my part. I was hoping Tivo might do something like Toshiba did with its HD-DVD players (HD-A2 vs HD-XA2), basically create one low-cost board design that can be supplanted with a high-quality 1080p solution and re-sold as a higher-end product. From what I understand of the Toshiba HD-DVD players, both models use the same logic board, one just has an extra chip and the firmware to take advantage of it, plus a separate daughterboard for 5.1 analog output.

I haven't seen anything from Tivo to suggest that a "Series3 Premium" is in the works.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

I think we are missing the point. A ser3 lite isnt ment to be for every one. If you want OTA then you go for the ser3 regular. I for one dont need OTA and would gladly give it up to lower the price. I will always be fed by cable. A smaller hard drive might lower the price but I dont think by much. Dual turners are a must for just about every one. But then again a lite version isnt for every one so maybe they might make it with just one tuner.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

SNJpage1 said:


> I for one dont need OTA and would gladly give it up to lower the price.


There is no cost savings by removing OTA, because there's no removing OTA -- it's required by various specifications/certifications/licenses. This is why no one manufactures QAM only demodulators. There used to be ATSC only demodulators (8VSB), but I don't think anyone bothers anymore.

The programming ("software") is not what makes the series 3 expensive.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

cramer said:


> There is no cost savings by removing OTA, because there's no removing OTA -- it's required by various specifications/certifications/licenses. This is why no one manufactures QAM only demodulators. There used to be ATSC only demodulators (8VSB), but I don't think anyone bothers anymore.
> 
> The programming ("software") is not what makes the series 3 expensive.


Uh, Er. OTA ATSC is ONLY required if you have an analog OTA tuner. Best example: S2DT: doesn't have an ATSC tuner because it doesn't tune analog OTA - tunes only analog cable. Second example: available, but rarely seen in big box stores, monitors with no tuner at all.

But I agree about chips: no savings from trying to do QAM without OTA ATSC.


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## snathanb (Sep 13, 2006)

ah30k said:


> It is all of the messaging protocols between the STB and the headend that we are talking about here not simple network protocols.


In a pure SDV network, the only protocol needed between the STB and the headend is IGMP. All the channels would be pushed to the neighborhood level as multicast IP streams, and the STBs simply send IGMP join messages to subscribe to the stream that matches the channel selected by the user.

But the keyword there is "pure"... but trust me.. cable systems are testing these systems.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

cramer said:


> There is no cost savings by removing OTA, because there's no removing OTA -- it's required by various specifications/certifications/licenses.


Can you give a cite for that? OTA is not required as far as I know; what's required is handling analog signals over the cable.

I consider it a reasonable possibility that TiVo will drop OTA. The chips may be able to handle it in theory, but there are problems connected with signal strength and interference that can be ignored if you don't handle OTA (the S3 has problems as reported in threads here). In addition, there's the ongoing expense of support. The more complicated in both setup and functioning the TiVo is, the more support calls. Whether that's made up by the simplicity for their support people of "all S3s support OTA" only TiVo knows.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

One other thing to consider: Even if something doesn't represent a cost difference, it could be disabled to justify a price difference, sort of like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80486SX


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

snathanb said:


> In a pure SDV network, the only protocol needed between the STB and the headend is IGMP. All the channels would be pushed to the neighborhood level as multicast IP streams, and the STBs simply send IGMP join messages to subscribe to the stream that matches the channel selected by the user.
> 
> But the keyword there is "pure"... but trust me.. cable systems are testing these systems.


And SDV system using a baseband network with multicast IP is useless for S3 and all the other existing digital STBs that modulate streams over discrete 6Mhz channels.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

dt_dc said:


> Tivo's following a path that will allow them to sell their software to the cable companies to be deployed on those OCAP based OpenCable two-way hosts from Samsung, Panasonic, et. al.





Justin Thyme said:


> I know of no official statement from Tivo that they have any near or long term goal for a port to OCAP.
> 
> Do you? (If no, any positive sounding hand waves that they might?)


Note: I said they are following a path (which is actually getting a be a pretty well trodden path) ... not what their actual goals or plans are.

It has been pretty widely reported that Tivo's cable product is written on top of the TVWorks TVNav middleware:
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6407023.html
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6407440.html
http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr/2007/07_pr_ces_012407.html
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-01/the-comcast-motorola-tivo-ces
etc.
Tivo has been quoted as saying that it's written on a "Java-Based pre-cursor middleware to OCAP" (http://www.zatznotfunny.com/category/cablecard/page/3/) ... which is exactly what the TVNav platform is.

TVNav isn't a "lower level API". TVNav (or TV Nav, or TV Navigator, or TVNavigator) is a middleware layer Comcast and Cox picked up when they bought Liberate back in 2005 and rolled them into their co-owned Double C Technologies group (which has since become TVWorks, or TV Works). TVNav is (largely) based on the "OnRamp to OCAP" spec (http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=242). It's a middleware layer that provides (mainly) a subset of a full OCAP stack. In theory (in that lovable middleware-kinda-way) since it's a subset of OCAP apps written on top of it should be easily portable and deployable on a full OCAP stack. Think of it as "OCAP-lite".

Didn't we have this conversation before?
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4780360&&#post4780360
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4726818&&#post4726818
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4761039&&#post4761039

Anyway, as far as the path to full OCAP goes ... well, that's exactly what the TVNav (and some other similar middleware packages) are designed / intended for ... and what several other cable vendors and software companies are doing. Writing their apps on these "OnRamp to OCAP" middleware layers today ... in order to make deals and deployments today ... and have something that can be deployed on all the existing cable boxes out there today ... while planning for deals and deployments on full OCAP environments in the future. EPG / DVR software vendors ... VOD client vendors ... iTV app vendors ... games and on-screen polls and video mosiacs and ... well, just about whatever software you'd want to run on an STB there are vendors / developers going down the same path.

For example, it's what Comcast's own GuideWorks group is doing:
http://blog.itvt.com/my_weblog/2005/10/itv_interview_g.html

Now as far as actual quotes from Tivo on plans to port to a _full_ OCAP stack ... well, Tivo is quoted as saying the following back in January:


> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/category/cablecard/page/3/
> 
> Efforts to port the TiVo application to OCAP are subject to ongoing business discussions between TiVo and its cable partners.


Which implies a certain amount of planning (enough for a basis of discussions). And there's their annual report to the SEC from April(doesn't get much more public than that):


> http://investor.tivo.com/EdgarDetail.cfm?CIK=1088825&FID=1193125-07-81563&SID=07-00
> 
> We also intend to extend the TiVo service to run on other DVR set-top boxes capable of supporting Comcast-deployed middleware and forthcoming Open Cable Application Platform (OCAP) solutions.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

snathanb said:


> In a pure SDV network, the only protocol needed between the STB and the headend is IGMP. All the channels would be pushed to the neighborhood level as multicast IP streams, and the STBs simply send IGMP join messages to subscribe to the stream that matches the channel selected by the user.


Your are talking about pure IP networking all the way to the STB. The vast majority of the cable operators are simply not set up for that and use broadcast QAM from the node out to the home. If you are living in todays world. You need a channel change protocol as well as other protocols to manage the currently active channels.



snathanb said:


> But the keyword there is "pure"... but trust me.. cable systems are testing these systems.


All of the major MSOs I deal with are using switched QAM, not IP to the home.


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## demon (Nov 15, 2006)

mikesown said:


> - Eliminate analog cable tuner(again, who uses this?)


A lot of cable providers don't do QAM SD simulcasts of all analog channels - Time Warner, for example, at least in my area (Albany NY) has *many* SD analog-only channels. Throwing out the analog tuners and encoder chips would greatly limit the usefulness of the TiVo on many (not all, but a lot of) cable networks, so I think it's safe to say they're not going to do that. (Moto can get away with that with their 3-series DVRs, since the cable provider then knows they have to do digital simulcast.)



mikesown said:


> This would yield a perfect DVR which could be subsidized to be very cheap, and maybe even free(with rebates, and commitments).


The cable companies aren't going to want to get in on it, and if they're not in on it, it's not going to get subsidized that way - the HD hardware (if you investigate the prices of SA and Moto DVRs to actually buy, they're not much lower than the S3) is not cheap. It's just not feasible.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

Tastes great, less filling






Why can't we all just get along?


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## jjamezz (Jul 19, 2005)

Multi-Room Viewing. ;-)


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## stevereis (Feb 24, 2006)

My 2 cents:

Start with the S2DT and replace one or both of the analog cable tuners with analog+QAM tuners. This give the ability to record HD locals and anything else digital sent in-the clear. I think cheap QAM tuners are now available to make this a low cost option.

Then, all that is needed hardware-wise is to replace the decoder chip with one that is HD capable.

Software needs to add in the ability to map the QAM signals (using PSIP data) or by user input as has been mentioned elsewhere (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5142671&&#post5142671) and you get a basic HD capable box that should not have any restrictions on MRV, TTG, etc. and you can still hook an external cable box to record in SD anything the box can decode.

Note that the QAM channel mapping would be welcomed by many S3 users.

Maybe the S3 is the right platform for this instead of the S2DT since it has component and HDMI out and the requisite tuners and decoder:
- remove CableCards
- drop THX certification
- remove OLED display 
- remove front panel buttons

In that case, they probably would not add back in the S2DT's analog input and separate cable/satellite box control via IR blasters


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## Lukej (Apr 28, 2006)

_According to CEO Tom Rogers:

Second, we did not have a lower-priced mass appeal HD offering. As we indicated last quarter, given the price of our Series 3 unit, we have not been able to meaningfully participate in the HD wave in retail. without having a mass appeal priced HD unit to participate in the real key trends that you want to see in consumer electronics today, its difficult and until we have that product later this year_

So, I got to wonder, did somebody force them to offer such a pricy unit that would hurt sales? Maybe they listened to these posters back when the S3 came out that kept screaming that the price was just right and TIVO didn't care to mass market this anyway.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Lukej said:


> So, I got to wonder, did somebody force them to offer such a pricy unit that would hurt sales?


No, they figured it out for themselves. Fortunately this year they might have available a box that might have sold last year.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

I can't believe that TiVo would make an S3 lite without cablecard support. TiVo's intention is to compete with Digital Cable's DVR - TiVo can't compete without CableCard. I also don't believe they will remove OTA support. Too many people have access to HD via OTA to cut out that market segment. I believe their goal is to reduced S3 costs without removing major S3 features.

Here's what I think they will change compared to the current S3:

No THX certification
A simpler case like the S2DT: no OLED display, no front panel controls, no fancy gloss black case
S2 style remote with S3 buttons (no backlighting, glossy finish, etc)
Cheaper S2 style packaging
A single cablecard slot intended for multi-stream cablecards
A newer, lower cost MPEG2/4 encoder/decoder/scaler chipset (others have mention a newer cheaper Broadcom chip is now available)
Other internal design changes that use cheaper components but result in no feature change and little or no quality change

They may do the following, but not likely:

A smaller harddrive, possibly 160GB, more likely just take advantage of lower 250GB drive pricing
Use Parallel ATA (EIDE) drives instead of SATA
Remove the eSATA connector
No HDMI output (s-video/composite/component/analog audio/digital audio only)
No SD outputs (component/analog audio/digital audio/HDMI only)
Only HDMI output (no s-video/composite/component/analog audio/digital audio)
Only component output (no s-video/composite/HDMI)

What I think will not change:

Dual Tuners (each tunes OTA ATSC/NTSC analog/digital and Cable QAM analog/digital)
Phone/USB/Ethernet (they are in the S2DT after all)
Audio/Video Outputs (HDMI/component/s-video/composite/analog audio/optical audio will remain)
All software-based features will remain the same (core DVR functions, MRV, HMO, HME, etc.)

Basically, I see the S3 lite as an S2DT plus ATSC OTA, Cablecard, SATA/eSATA, HDMI, component, and optical audio outs.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

I would like to see them get rid of the physical HD completely, stick the OS on a flash drive, and sell these things diskless. Also fix the 1TB/volume limitation while they are at it.

They can then sell with their TiVo-branded eSATA enclosure or let the consumer buy their own.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

sfhub said:


> I would like to see them get rid of the physical HD completely, stick the OS on a flash drive, and sell these things diskless. Also fix the 1TB/volume limitation while they are at it.
> 
> They can then sell with their TiVo-branded eSATA enclosure or let the consumer buy their own.


That's a thought. Do it for both HD and SD Tivos, probably with an internal disk bay for cartridges. This would allow for greater safety from disconnection while running. But doing it with an external would be fine too.

Anyway, then you just fill up 2TB drives and then switch your Tivo service to the next Tivo in the house- until after a few months you have all TVs supplied with huge amounts of video choice. Alternately, you fill up cartridges- one for sci fi, one for chick flicks, etc etc. Use MRV and TivoBack to organize them.

So when TB drives get down to $1.98 each, you go to costco, pick up a 6 pack of Flash Tivos (HD or SD) and a 6 pack of TB cartridges. Put one in the car, take one to the vacation house, etc etc. Most are disconnected from the service and are just digital players of archived content.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Maybe they can make these things free!


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

demon said:


> A lot of cable providers don't do QAM SD simulcasts of all analog channels - Time Warner, for example, at least in my area (Albany NY) has *many* SD analog-only channels.


Same here.

I can think of ONE SD channel that TW here (Buffalo, NY) simulcasts on digital and analog... TBS.

Not a single other channel from 2-99 is available digitally.

Stupid... but it's the case.


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## teavaux (Jun 29, 2007)

I think a "S3 lite" that is targeted a "Series 2 HD" would be a great success.


Here are some facts:
1) A lot of S3 users are using the S3 for OTA HD and basic cable. 
2) A lot of people need to buy a ATSC tuner in 2009.
3) The CableCard slots in the S3 prohibit the use of TTG and MRV due to artificial restrictions imposed by the CableCard folks.
4) A lot of S2 users are waiting to buy the S3 until TTG and MRV can be used, as they love these features on the S2.

So:

Take a Series 2 case and:
- Tuner 1 is a digital ATSC tuner for OTA HD and unencrypted QAM, and
- Tuner 2 is a an analog SD cable tuner (similar to a series 2), that can be used in conjunction with an IR blaster for premium cable channels with a cable box. 

No CableCard slot or CableCard support is provided. 

HD Output would be similar to the S3, with support through 1080i.

Tivo To Go and Multi-Room support is fully supported, and fully interoperable with Series 2 boxes. How? No High Definition support for TTG or MRV. Any Hi-Def recordings would be downgraded to SD (480i) before output to Multi-Room viewing or Tivo To Go. This downscaling will keep the Hollywood lawyers happy, keep network file sizes down, allow the files to be played on a wider variety of laptops and mobile devices, etc.

SATA hard drive prices are low enough, and HD data transfer requirements high enough that a SATA hard drive should be included, along with the eSATA port (though I would be OK if no eSATA port was included)

Series 3 front display could be eliminated for cost savings, but it would be nice if the Series 3 remote could be included.

Cost? $349 would be just about right.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Well,...

The status of analog cable channels is still questionable. While past actions by the FCC have encouraged cable companies to go all digital, there are discussions afoot about maintaining an analog broadcast tier and/or analog basic tier in analog. However some of theses discussions actually involve cable companies actually renting cable boxes for $0 to support analog TV's.

It's amazing that we're less than two years away, but we still don't really know what will happen to analog cable.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

teavaux said:


> I think a "S3 lite" that is targeted a "Series 2 HD" would be a great success.
> 
> Here are some facts:
> 1) A lot of S3 users are using the S3 for OTA HD and basic cable.
> ...


The number of people that would pay for an HD DVR that can't record ESPN is too small for this strategy to work. Especially when they could lease one from the cable company that can record ESPN and all the other HD channels that are not OTA.

Add in the millions of people like me that can pick up very little (if any) OTA HD and the whole idea falls apart as a mass market device.


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## teavaux (Jun 29, 2007)

HiDefGator said:


> The number of people that would pay for an HD DVR that can't record ESPN is too small for this strategy to work. Especially when they could lease one from the cable company that can record ESPN and all the other HD channels that are not OTA.
> 
> Add in the millions of people like me that can pick up very little (if any) OTA HD and the whole idea falls apart as a mass market device.


You are right, this box would not be capable of recording ESPN in HD. However, my theory is that people in that position would be best served by a Comcast/Tivo box or a "full" S3, which exists today and will be further discounted over time.

With my version of a "lite" machine, people who want to record ESPN would have to do it in SD through a cable box output, much like how people record ESPN on an S2 today.

With the QAM support, people with basic cable and no OTA HD could still tune in and record the unencrypted (by law...) local channels in HD. So at least you can Tivo any HD sports on network TV...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

teavaux said:


> I think a "S3 lite" that is targeted a "Series 2 HD" would be a great success.
> 
> Here are some facts:
> 1) A lot of S3 users are using the S3 for OTA HD and basic cable.
> ...


Let me sum up your suggestion: a Series 2 DT with OTA/clear QAM capability, and eSATA. 

Works for me - that's all I use my Series 3 for.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

vstone said:


> The status of analog cable channels is still questionable. While past actions by the FCC have encouraged cable companies to go all digital, there are discussions afoot about maintaining an analog broadcast tier and/or analog basic tier in analog. However some of theses discussions actually involve cable companies actually renting cable boxes for $0 to support analog TV's.


The cable companies want analog to go away, because it frees up so much spectrum for them. One way that can happen is, as you mention, renting cheap cable boxes.

Here's how the spectrum allocation looks like for my local Comcast monopoly, in rounded MHz numbers:

below 270 MHz (cable channel 32) is "basic cable" analog
below 500 MHz (cable channel 70) is "standard cable" analog
between 500 MHz and 860 MHz is digital

All of the good stuff such as HD re-broadcast and cable modem downstream and "digital cable" and "analog digital simulcast" happens above 500 MHz.

There's about 230 MHz of under-utilized spectrum between 270 MHz and 500 MHz. It's all SD. It's already being simulcast in digital. Moving people with "standard cable" to digital frees up all this spectrum. About 75 HD channels worth. Or easily 300 SD channels worth!

And that's not even touching the spectrum below 270 MHz, which includes analog SD local channels, "community service" channels, etc.

So Comcast can easily keep "basic" analog and still free up huge amounts of spectrum. All without needing to deploy the hated "switched digital video".


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

A purported first sighting: "...Also, the tech said that he just went to the house of one of the "senior execs from Tivo" (I live in the Menlo Park/Palo Alto area, so this is possible). He said that the exec had a new beta model of the next version of the S3 (the tech called it the S4). He said it only had 1 CC slot and it was a front-loading slot for an M-Card."​


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## sammydee (Sep 24, 2006)

Speculate no more ... Tivo HD is for sale at the Tivo website. $299. Just ordered mine - 14 to 21 day shipping. 

Practically no differences from the current S3 ... smaller disk; non-glowing remote; no OLED display on the front of the box.


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## dtsfanohio (Nov 5, 2006)

yep... I bought the Series 3 for 399.99 (Fathers day Rebate) and glad I did... I love this damn thing....and the Tivo Software!


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