# Android Support?



## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

Has anyone heard anything about Android device support? Our house has one iPad, but 5 Android Pads and 2 Android phones. I'm not sure I'd buy a Stream without knowing when Android support would be coming. (I know the trades all say that Android support is coming, but the sun will burn out eventually too)


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I've been looking...nothing definitive. I only heard that it's "coming" as well.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

According to the system information page the Stream uses encrypted HLS. From what I can tell that's an Apple only technology. I wonder how they plan to make this work on Android?

Dan


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> According to the system information page the Stream uses encrypted HLS. From what I can tell that's an Apple only technology. I wonder how they plan to make this work on Android?
> 
> Dan


Android has supported HLS since the Honeycomb release.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Live_Streaming


----------



## tomm1079 (May 10, 2005)

HLS is pretty common. 

I know Android has HLS. It was added with 3.2 or so. My Google TV has HLS enabled.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Apple has submitted it to IETF as a draft standard. This is actually one thing that they aren't keeping proprietary.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm not an HLS expert. I just looked it up when I found that page and it seemed to be an Apple technology so I was worried.

I know with TiVo Desktop they kept saying it was coming to Mac, but it never really did because they couldn't setup the same DirectShow type decryption on the Mac that they could on the PC. (it did eventually come, but only as part of a $70 Roxio app)

Dan


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> ... it seemed to be an Apple technology so I was worried..


Understandable.


----------



## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

No Android support? WTH? Only for Apple? Wait and see, then maybe buy one.


"iPhone: Smartphone for Dummies"


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

wtherrell said:


> No Android support? WTH? Only for Apple? Wait and see, then maybe buy one.
> 
> "iPhone: Smartphone for Dummies"


It's not all that uncommon for iStuff to come first. It happens.

There's half a billion Android devices out there, so we'll get our app. Hopefully it won't be too long.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The Stream is targeted mainly at tablet users. (who wants to watch TV on a tiny 4" screen?) And when it comes to tablets 95% of the market belongs to the iPad, so it makes sense that they would target iOS first.

Dan


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Absolutely. But with the popularity of the Nexus 7 and I'm sure the new Kindle Fires...there's enough there to motivate Android support. If they waste too much time, I'll be disappointed, but we'll see.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah but this is a project that was conceived almost a year ago, before the Nexus 7 existed and when the original Kindle Fire was a blip at best. That being said I hear from a reliable source they are working on Android support right now, so I don't think it's going to be more then a couple months, at most, before it's added. 

In fact based on my poking around, and reading the iPad hacking thread in the underground, it seems to use JSON and HLS for everything (basically HTML5) so they should be able to add support for almost any device relatively easily. 

Dan


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I just tried out the new Kindle Fire HD. The 1280x800 resolution screen looks much better than the original Fire. It would be nice to be able to use it with the Stream.


----------



## deaddeeds (Sep 19, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> The Stream is targeted mainly at tablet users. (who wants to watch TV on a tiny 4" screen?) And when it comes to tablets 95% of the market belongs to the iPad, so it makes sense that they would target iOS first.
> 
> Dan


Not quite 95%, how about 68%.

Strategy Analytics reported last week that Apples share of the global tablet market ticked up to 68% from 62% in the June quarter.
http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/01/ipad-market-share-q2-2012-android-tablets/


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

deaddeeds said:


> Not quite 95%, how about 68%.
> 
> Strategy Analytics reported last week that Apples share of the global tablet market ticked up to 68% from 62% in the June quarter.
> http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/01/ipad-market-share-q2-2012-android-tablets/


But what is the percentage in the US? Since the Stream is only available in the US.


----------



## pteronaut (Dec 26, 2009)

Of course, when it does appear, it will have to deny access to Rooted devices.


----------



## lgerbarg (Jun 26, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> I'm not an HLS expert. I just looked it up when I found that page and it seemed to be an Apple technology so I was worried.
> 
> I know with TiVo Desktop they kept saying it was coming to Mac, but it never really did because they couldn't setup the same DirectShow type decryption on the Mac that they could on the PC. (it did eventually come, but only as part of a $70 Roxio app)
> 
> Dan


The full HLS spec is publicly available and there are a lot of client implementations available. Apple has no interest in dealing with the server side of HLS, so it makes sense for them to do that. Furthermore, one of the large issues that video content providers have is keeping around segments in different formats, so having multiple clients compatible with their container segments (if not the entire spec) is highly desirable to them.

A lot of vendors (Adobe, Microsoft, etc) are not entirely thrilled with HLS because the official spec is fully controlled by Apple, so they have gone off to make a competing standard (MPEG DASH), which is largely the same except for obvious design by committee extensions: "We can't settle on whether to use MPEG2-TS or ISO Base Media File Format for the segments, so lets just make everyone support both! Who cares that no one will use ISO Base Media File Format since it offers no benefits and by using MPEG2-TS we can use the same segments for both HLS and DASH clients and save enormous amounts of money on bandwidth and CDN costs and be compatible with transport streams used for broadcast?"

Full disclosure, the guy who designed HLS and serves as the standard's "Benevolent Dictator" used to be a coworker of mine.


----------



## deaddeeds (Sep 19, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> But what is the percentage in the US? Since the Stream is only available in the US.


Android has 35% of U.S. tablet market
http://www.forbes.com/sites/sap/201...f-u-s-tablet-market-will-overtake-ipad-chart/


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That article says they expect Androidvto overtake Apple soon. I don't think that's going to happen. The main appeal of Adroid tablets to most people is the price. Geeks like the flexibility, but most people buy an Android tablet because the iPad is too expensive. They don't mind the smaller screen or inferior hardware, the $200 price tag, vs $500 for an iPad, is what seals the deal. However Apple has an answer to that. By all accounts they are going to release an iPad Mini next month with a much more competitive price point. Once Apple is able to compete on price Android adoption is going to slow considerably because most people will just get the Mini instead. 

Now there will still be a few manufactures that will cut prices on Android tablets even further to get back in the game, but the quality of the hardware is going to have to be so terrible that they're going to turn out to be junk. The only one that will have a real chance is the Kindle Fire because Amazon can afford to sell it at a loss because they will make it back in consumption of their media services. The rest will have to cut quality to cut prices and that will mean sh*tty hardware that people are not going to enjoy using. 

And lets not count MS out of the game. I don't think they're going to make an immediate impact, but they know their core business is on the line here and they are going to come out swinging.

All that being said if TiVo had to choose one OS to develop this thing for first, doesn't it still make sense to choose the one with 65% of the market vs the one with 35%?

Dan


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Isn't the only reason Apple tablet prices are so high is because they have a very high profit margin? For me I'll take an android or Windows tablet any day over an Apple one. Even if the Apple one was cheaper. Every time I've messed around with an iPad I did not like it.


----------



## kfb5926 (Sep 13, 2012)

Google can afford to sell the Nexus at a loss because it has much of thee same content offerings as the Fire with their Google Play area. I tend to think they'll start grabbing market share because they're very committed to it and the Android Tablet OS has come a long ways in a very short time and Google's track record is impressive. The Jelly Bean os is, in my mind, quite competitive with IOS, just not quite the third party tablet specific app support yet.

It'll be interesting to see where Microsoft prices the Surface, but for whatever reason they've consistently executed poorly in mobile devices for so long now, I can't take them too seriously.


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

The same argument about folk buying android smartphones only because they were cheaper than iphones was once made too.

It simply is not the case. Many folks PREFER the open market android platform to ios. In tablets, its a slower progression but Apple will lose market share to android there as well as the hardware catches up. Its not JUST about price. But the value for the dollar is much higer on the Android side.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jcthorne said:


> The same argument about folk buying android smartphones only because they were cheaper than iphones was once made too.
> 
> It simply is not the case. Many folks PREFER the open market android platform to ios.


Geeks prefer the openness of Android, but most people could care less. They want a smart phone that has the apps they want at a price they can afford. Android devices also have wider variety of hardware choices like bigger screens, slide out keyboards, etc.. that some appeal to some people. However the vast majority of people choose Android devices because they are cheaper and available on more carriers. (Apple's exclusive deal with AT&T really hurt them early on)

In the tablet space it's the same thing. iPads are expensive! Minimum $500 for a current generation model. Compare that to a $200 Nexus or Fire HD and a lot of people are going to chose the cheaper option because they don't know, or care, about the differences. If Apple releases the iPad Mini in the same ballpark (I'm thinking $250 or less) those other devices are going to have a tougher road. Apple is still considered the premium option. They have better industrial design and construction then most other manufacturers. Plus they're just easier to use. Amazon is attempting to dumb down Android to make it easier like iOS but in the process they're excluding a large portion of the apps, which hurts the user experience.

Windows 8 will have a slight advantage a year or so from now because it will be the same OS that people will be running on the desktop and people will be familiar with it. However it might be too little too late, we'll have to wait and see on that one.

Now don't get me wrong I don't think Android is going anywhere, and it will likely pick up a little market share in the coming year. However I don't think it's going to overtake the tablet space like it did the phone space. There were circumstances, some fostered by Apple, that allowed that to happen in the phone space and I don't think Apple is going to allow that to happen again in the tablet space if they can help it.

Dan


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> That article says they expect Androidvto overtake Apple soon. I don't think that's going to happen. The main appeal of Adroid tablets to most people is the price. Geeks like the flexibility, but most people buy an Android tablet because the iPad is too expensive. They don't mind the smaller screen or inferior hardware, the $200 price tag, vs $500 for an iPad, is what seals the deal. However Apple has an answer to that. By all accounts they are going to release an iPad Mini next month with a much more competitive price point. Once Apple is able to compete on price Android adoption is going to slow considerably because most people will just get the Mini instead.
> 
> Now there will still be a few manufactures that will cut prices on Android tablets even further to get back in the game, but the quality of the hardware is going to have to be so terrible that they're going to turn out to be junk. The only one that will have a real chance is the Kindle Fire because Amazon can afford to sell it at a loss because they will make it back in consumption of their media services. The rest will have to cut quality to cut prices and that will mean sh*tty hardware that people are not going to enjoy using.
> 
> ...


As you said- amazon is a much bigger issue for apple tablets then plain android ones. In a nut shell they can and will undercut apple with very reasonable hardware. From a price perspective apple will never compete with amazon for tablets.

but agreed- if you are developing for tablets then you go for ipad first.

PS- and the first generation windows tablets apparently will make ipads look cheap. ;-D


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

the big issue is not that tivo developed ipad first- it's that like everything else they are so darned slow. So the second tier might take more than a year to do (see HDUI, updated youtube and netflix apps, etc, etc)


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It's my understanding that they are working on it now and it should be available sooner rather then later. I'd be surprised if Android support wasn't released before the holidays.

Dan


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dave Zatz made a comment in an article about the Stream..



> ...And word on the street is Android support may not arrive until 2013...


http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-09/tivo-stream-take-two/

Which I really hope is not true. 2013 is a long ways away. I could really get some use out of a stream right now.


----------



## DrTivol (Feb 6, 2005)

just to add to this thread ...

Netflix rolled out to the ipad first and then to windows mobile 7 (which had just been launched). Much later it was added to Android. The bottom line for Android is security which has only been recently addressed. For example, i have written simple apps on Android that can take the Netflix video/audio streams after decryption has been done. yes, Android supports HLS but it's the way Apple supported encrypted HLS in a very secure manner from the get go that has made it very friendly to the content owners.

It will be on Android, its just a matter of time IMHO.


----------



## Big Deficit (Jul 8, 2003)

Somehow I didn't notice the stream until last night. It looked interesting. No Android support makes it a non starter for me as we're not ios. Considering all the other issues I'm reading about, it's probably fortunate for me that Tivo has disappointed once again. It would be worse if I blew $130 on the thing!


----------



## kfb5926 (Sep 13, 2012)

aaronwt said:


> Dave Zatz made a comment in an article about the Stream..
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-09/tivo-stream-take-two/
> 
> Which I really hope is not true. 2013 is a long ways away. I could really get some use out of a stream right now.


I'd be curious to know where Dave got that from. As vocal as Tivo has been about it being in development, I really wasn't getting the impression it would be that long.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Dave Zatz made a comment in an article about the Stream..
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-09/tivo-stream-take-two/
> 
> Which I really hope is not true. 2013 is a long ways away. I could really get some use out of a stream right now.


September 2013 probably with TiVo's track record.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

kfb5926 said:


> I'd be curious to know where Dave got that from. As vocal as Tivo has been about it being in development, I really wasn't getting the impression it would be that long.


over the years tivo has crowed about projects that never materialized and others that have taken years and years to get done. I'm a big TiVo fan but they are just painfully slow for just about everything- its painful to wait all the time.

The good news is- maybe the current MSRP includes and apple-tax and it will drop a bunch before they finally get it ready for Android.

(also it's not entirely impossible they stop selling the stream before the android support is ever completed and instead they tell us we need to buy series 5 hardware to get android support)


----------



## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

Just saw this on the release notes for the Kindle App Update

? TiVo Stream support will be coming to Android in a future release


----------



## kfb5926 (Sep 13, 2012)

compnurd said:


> Just saw this on the release notes for the Kindle App Update
> 
> ? TiVo Stream support will be coming to Android in a future release


They should make it an open source project for their users, we'd have it written by now.


----------



## kfb5926 (Sep 13, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> That article says they expect Android to overtake Apple soon. I don't think that's going to happen.
> Dan


According to Pew Research,  it's already happening. It puts the numbers at 52% for iOS to 48% for Android. In one year, Apple's market share went from 81% to 52%.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Thats based on a survey of 9,500 people, hardly conclusive evidence. Unfortunately most of the companies involved don't release exact sales figures so there is no way to say for sure. And as I said in my original post the main reson people buy Android tablets is price. Once the iPad Mini hits that's going to be less of a factor and I think it's going to slow Android's adoption in the space. Now I'm not some Apple zealot, they can be beat, I just don't think it will happen any time soon. But obviously they are worried which is why they are releasing a Mini even though Jobs said they never would. 

Dan


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

The relative ratio isn't even that important. The point is that there's enough android devices out there for it to be worth it to do.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I agree, and TiVo seems to as well since they've said they are working on it. However if I were working on a product that I planned to release for both, but only had enough resources to do one at a time, I'd choose the iPad first too. Not only are there more iPad users but they tend to have more disposable income, as evidenced by the expensive toy, which means they're more likely to buy the product. 

Dan


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I believe that studies have been done that show that iOS users are way more likely to download any given app, pay for an app, and pay through an app. I would guess that is a gap that is closing, but still supports putting your money where the money is.


----------



## DCleary (Dec 20, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> Thats based on a survey of 9,500 people, hardly conclusive evidence. Unfortunately most of the companies involved don't release exact sales figures so there is no way to say for sure. And as I said in my original post the main reson people buy Android tablets is price. Once the iPad Mini hits that's going to be less of a factor and I think it's going to slow Android's adoption in the space. Now I'm not some Apple zealot, they can be beat, I just don't think it will happen any time soon. But obviously they are worried which is why they are releasing a Mini even though Jobs said they never would.
> 
> Dan


I don't really care about the Apple.v.Google debate but a sample of 9,500 people is a VERY good sample size. I'm not sure how much margin of error you would need but that would more than suffice for most purposes.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Not when you consider the types of people who actually talk to pollsters. That's why I put absolutely no weight in the current political polls. The only people who actually answer the phone and talk to those people are retirees and hermits with nothing better to do. The rest of us just send the call to voicemail or hang up immediately. 

Dan


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I answer the polls periodically. I do about one or two a week. But I'm getting many more calls than that for polls each week since I am in swing state. Between the calls to answer polls and the calls to support Obama or Romney, I see around five to ten every day.

Although Columbus day seemed like it was none stop. There were over twenty calls that day. Although I only picked up the phone once.

And then there is everything that shows up in my mailbox each day. What a waste of trees.


----------



## danjw1 (Sep 13, 2005)

This is pretty standard. Two reasons, iOS is a single target, Android has multiple flavors. Google is cracking down on that a bit, but it still isn't as easy as iOS. Also, this is targeted at tablets, and iPads have outsold all other tablets. Most manufacturers of consumer electronics have released an iOS app before the comparable Android one.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

just to pipe in again- doesn't matter to me that they go ios first- that's understandable. The STUPID bit is that they take forever to come out with android after ios. 

I dont know- so I'll ask- are their tools or a language or something so you could write one app and for the most part it would work on both ios and android (even with some reasonable amount of tweaking)? Is that the point of what adobe air is supposed to become?


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There are some cross platform tools that allow you to once and publish to both devices. However they're relatively new so most apps that were written more the a year or so ago were most likely written in the native languages of the devices. In the case of iOS that's Objective C and in the case of Android thats mostly Java with a little native C/C++ for the real low level stuff. Not only are the two languages very different but the APIs for the two platforms are also very different. It's basically the same as writing an app for both Windows and Mac. You pretty much need two teams, or one very versatile team, to create native apps for each platform. 

Dan


----------

