# Will this spell the end of Tivo?



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Check out this link:

http://www.geektonic.com/2009/09/multi-channel-cablecard-tuner-for.html

The strict DRM requirement for CableCards has been relaxed considerably, allowing CableCard compatible tuners to be marketed indivudally and not exclusively as part of a turnkey Media Center PC. Ceton will be releasing 2-, 4-, and 6-tuner versions that can be used with a single M-card and compatible with the upcoming Windows 7 Media Center OS. The 6-tuner model will only be available to OEM vendors for inclusion in turnkey Media Center PCs, but the 2- and 4-tuner models may be available as early as the 1st quarter of next year.

What this means is that you can install one of these in your PC and connect it directly to your digital cable or FIOS provider, negating the need to pay monthly service fees for multiple CableCards and Tivo service fees. I currently have an HTPC with six ATSC tuners that I use for recording OTA HD locals. I supplement them with two S3 Tivos for recording shows from FIOS. Once the 4-tuner model becomies available I can swap out my four S-cards for a single M-card and cancel my Tivo service. I'll miss my Tivos but not the monthly fees. The money I'll save will more than pay for the Ceton tuners in short order. The best part is that I'll finally be able to eliminate the last remaining components in my Home Theater setup and reduce it to just my HTPC and my preamp/processor.

The one major caveat is that if you currently have any channels flagged by your provider you may not be able to transfer them to another PC or create DVDs from them. This is already the case with some p[roviders and the Tivo HD so it's nothing new if it already applies to you.

The new CableCard tuners will also support SDV with an adapter. Unfortunately, they will not support 2-way communication and therefore no VOD. Again, this is nothing new to Tivo owners.


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## Hawkeye22 (Aug 8, 2007)

I just saw the same thing on Ars.

http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/09/cablecard-now-a-go-in-homebrew-home-theater-pcs.ars

I don't think the average user would know how to set up a media center. They'd just stick with a company supplied DVR.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

What it forebodes is a hideous nightmare for cable providers . I'd hate to have to install and maintain CCs on any arbitrary consumer-cobbled-together PC with a CableCARD interface. Hopefully the FCC will allow cable providers to refuse.

I don't think that it means that much to TiVo. A TiVo HD with a 3 years of prepaid service is going to come out to much less than any HTPC with the required parts. Also, the subset of the population who can deal with TiVo is far greater than those who could deal with HTPC-as-DVR.


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## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

Why would this spell the end? Most people out there are not going to build their own HTPC, so they will rely on a system vendor. Will a HTPC (OEM or self-built) cost less than a TiVo HD with lifetime? If the HTPC can be built for a reasonable price, will it have an interface as easy to use as TiVo? If the interface is easy to use, will it have the same advanced features that TiVo provides? If it has the features, will it be as reliable (software and hardware wise) as a TiVo?

HTPC has a place. I'll probably build one myself when a multi-channel cable card tuner is available for a reasonable (read under $200) price. Still, that won't make me give up my TiVo. The convience it offers and the features such as suggestions are just too much for me to give up without a really good option being available.


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## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

mikeyts said:


> What it forebodes is a hideous nightmare for cable providers . I'd hate to have to install and maintain CCs on any arbitrary consumer-cobbled-together PC with a CableCARD interface. Hopefully the FCC will allow cable providers to refuse.


I don't think you will see the FCC let the cable companies off the hook. Still, what it may do is get the cable companies to finally get off their collective a**es and come up with a soft token capability that doesn't require a custom card.

Each tuner card should have something equivalent to an Ethernet MAC address. When you want to add a HTPC (or TiVo for that matter) to the cable all you should have to do is give that address to an operator or enter it in via the cable company website. At that point the cable head end can communicate with the tuner, establish a key pair (public/private or symetric), and authorize the device. There is no need to have a physical card involved in this process.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

No, more likely it will get cable companies to start charging for every support call, unless it is demonstrated to be a problem with their service.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

bicker said:


> No, more likely it will get cable companies to start charging for every support call, unless it is demonstrated to be a problem with their service.


Well, many of them do that already. Locally, Cox charges $75 for a truck roll, unless they find out that the problem is with their equipment. I'm thinking that, if forced to install and maintain them at all, they get to charge at least double what they'd charge for dealing with problems involving OEM-integrated products. An alternative is self-install-only with a charge for the call-in-interface-info-to-CO service, with no service offered other than coming in to an office to swap your PC's CableCARD.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> What it forebodes is a hideous nightmare for cable providers . I'd hate to have to install and maintain CCs on any arbitrary consumer-cobbled-together PC with a CableCARD interface.


There's no need for the cable providers to install anything -- never has been, for that matter. Just mail out the cards, and activate them when the customer calls in. If they want to make it easier on themselves, they can drop the idiotic pairing requirement, and mail them out pre-activated.

Edit: And there's no reason they should charge, or be allowed to charge, for the customer calling in to activate. 



> _Hopefully the FCC will allow cable providers to refuse._


Dude, WTF is wrong with you?

Anyway, no, I don't think it's the end of TiVo. But it is a very good thing. :up: And it might be the beginning of the end of the CCI flags.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

wmcbrine said:


> And it might be the beginning of the end of the CCI flags.


Why?


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> Dude, WTF is wrong with you?


Nothing--how about you ? Requiring the cable providers to help make CableCARDs work in homemade systems is abusive. That's my opinion, yours obviously differs.

As long as they're not required to support them, self-install would be cool, with an option to come into the office and exchange them however many times is necessary. The use of pairing is their choice and if one of their service people is required to accomplish it, then they should be allowed to charge.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> Anyway, no, I don't think it's the end of TiVo. But it is a very good thing. :up: And it might be the beginning of the end of the CCI flags.


agreed - this could help get cable companies to just let the consumer deal with the card and the HTPC enthusiasts become another voice to beat on the improperly (not illegal) set CCI flags.

I do always get a giggle out of HTPC enthusiasts who do think that majority of consumers would hook a PC up to their cable to record TV. Most people wont even hook up an appliance box from the cable company.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Actually, I could see this going the way of giving customers the ability to request pairing online. They'd log into the cable company's website, enter the necessary information, and then within an hour or two the cable company would process the request. Maybe they could even automate the process, but otherwise, just forward the info to an engineer via email or a queue.

Then charge for customers who don't care to or are unable to enter the pairing information via the web.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

bicker said:


> Actually, I could see this going the way of giving customers the ability to request pairing online. They'd log into the cable company's website, enter the necessary information, and then within an hour or two the cable company would process the request. Maybe they could even automate the process, but otherwise, just forward the info to an engineer via email or a queue.
> 
> Then charge for customers who don't care to or are unable to enter the pairing information via the web.


I like that arrangement.

My main problem with this is that it _is_ a support nightmare (as Windows itself is) and a nightmare that the cable operators should have very limited responsibility for. A bug that's preventing your CableCARDs from working on a network connected, general-purpose operating system could be due to anything, including something that you have running in the background that you're completely unaware of. As a firmware developer, I've done quite a lot of bug chasing and I'd hate it if the system that I was trying to debug might have any arbitrary mix of hardware and software installed and running on it in addition to the application that I was required to fix. Obviously people have to do that kind of debugging for application software and hardware to be installed and used on Windows, but not on the have-to-make-it-work-for-each-individual-customer-complaint basis that cable customer service has to operate under.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Personally I am extremely excited about this. Here is a hands on with the 4 tuner card by Ceton...engadgethd. More on the Ceton Card

More than 2 tuners in a box...check
one priority list to manage...check
instant playback in another room...check
unlimited storage with easy server backup...check
easy to use interface...check
support for other filetypes with instant playback in another room...check

Don't get me wrong I love my Tivos but I also see its faults for my use since I record so many things. I won't be getting rid of my Tivos since they are lifetime but this is what I have been asking for Tivo to offer for years now.

Rumor is the 4 tuner card is going to cost $300 with a 2 tuner card offered later for cheaper. The 4 tuners I bought cost me a $100 total which supports clearqam with manual mapping and OTA. Now just add in a $300 card and I am up to $400 for 8 tuners. This leaves another $700 for the PC and extender if you don't a 360 already and gives me 4 additional tuners just for OTA/clearqam. If you jump to 3 Tivos with lifetime you are now around $1200 for PC and extender after tuners.

The Ceton card only requires


> Subject to change: Windows 7 Premium with minimum Intel Pentium Dual Core E5400 processor, 4 Gigabytes of RAM, HDPC compliant graphics, and HDMI out or DVI out with sound card


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

bicker said:


> Actually, I could see this going the way of giving customers the ability to request pairing online. They'd log into the cable company's website, enter the necessary information, and then within an hour or two the cable company would process the request. Maybe they could even automate the process, but otherwise, just forward the info to an engineer via email or a queue.
> 
> Then charge for customers who don't care to or are unable to enter the pairing information via the web.


I agree 100% with this.

I think up until now, there haven't been enough CableCard users for the cable companies to be bothered with. (And by making things difficult with truck rolls, they effectively discouraged consumers from paying for CableCard-enabled TV's.) If this change opens the CableCard floodgates (not sure that will happen, but I hope so), the cable companies will be much more motivated to make it painless and inexpensive to do CableCard installations.


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## riz (Dec 30, 2000)

innocentfreak said:


> Personally I am extremely excited about this. Here is a hands on with the 4 tuner card by Ceton...engadgethd. More on the Ceton Card
> 
> More than 2 tuners in a box...check
> one priority list to manage...check
> ...


would 4 tuners require 2 cable cards? My current tivohd has 1 cablecard for two tuners so I assume another cable card would be required for 4 tuners.

Also, as much as I love my 360, i have gone through quite a few due to heat and rrod, i wonder how 360 will hold up being on for tv viewing along with all the gaming i do!

and lastly, u seem knowledgeable on the subject and i have wanted a media center solution for, maybe like, FOREVER! it seems to becoming close to reality and perfect timing for me, my tivohd 1 year paid plan is up jan 2010! so q1 2010 could work out for me!

but going back to my question for u, in your opinion, what would the cheapest i could build a 4 tuner box with all the necessary equipment, nott including hdd space, i ave so much space right now, in the 4tb range I can figure that much out but the rest, hmm.. also, cheapest solution that would work, i dont need the best pc, just what will run a media center solution!

thx so much!
riz


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## Keen (Aug 3, 2009)

riz said:


> would 4 tuners require 2 cable cards?


Nope, one M-card for multiple streams.


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## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

Keen said:


> Nope, one M-card for multiple streams.


In fact to be specific, as I recall an M-card can handle up to six streams.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

riz said:


> would 4 tuners require 2 cable cards? My current tivohd has 1 cablecard for two tuners so I assume another cable card would be required for 4 tuners.


As others have said a M-card can handle up to 6 streams. I just read if your cable company requires tuning adapters there may also be a limitation. Apparently Motorola TAs support 6 streams while Cisco TAs only support 2 currently so you would need 1 Cisco tuning adapter per pair of tuners.



riz said:


> Also, as much as I love my 360, i have gone through quite a few due to heat and rrod, i wonder how 360 will hold up being on for tv viewing along with all the gaming i do!


There is still the chance we will see other extenders but right now 360 is really the only remaining option. You can still find some of the other extenders in store but they are older models and some cost more than the 360.

This is completely a guess but the 360 may have less heat issues as an extender since all it is doing is streaming the content from the PC. It takes very little AFAIK to do this which is also why people are able to build such low-end HTPCs with the case costing usually more than the processor.



riz said:


> and lastly, u seem knowledgeable on the subject and i have wanted a media center solution for, maybe like, FOREVER! it seems to becoming close to reality and perfect timing for me, my tivohd 1 year paid plan is up jan 2010! so q1 2010 could work out for me!
> 
> but going back to my question for u, in your opinion, what would the cheapest i could build a 4 tuner box with all the necessary equipment, nott including hdd space, i ave so much space right now, in the 4tb range I can figure that much out but the rest, hmm.. also, cheapest solution that would work, i dont need the best pc, just what will run a media center solution!
> 
> ...


Truth be told I am not that knowledgeable about them. I have only been toying with the idea since Windows 7 RC once I saw how nice it was with cheap clearqam tuners and how well it worked over the 360.

I would honestly recommend checking a couple of sites such as AVSforums - Guide to Building a HD HTPC. renethx keeps a huge sticky thread that he updates with new hardware and new builds. They have a whole sub-forum dedicated to HTPCs and you can spend weeks in there just playing with builds and what works for you.

Also I would check out thegreenbutton which is the Microsoft owned forum for media center. Also mynetworkproject has some good info.

I haven't toyed with builds yet since I have been waiting for multituner cable card options to come out. I was lucky to have an older test pc I was running Windows 7 RC on and just added the 2 clearqam dual tuner cards to play with. I have mine in a regular tower at my desk and just use the 360 to access it.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Check out this link:
> 
> http://www.geektonic.com/2009/09/multi-channel-cablecard-tuner-for.html
> 
> The strict DRM requirement for CableCards has been relaxed considerably,


Sorry, how exactly have the DRM requirements been relaxed?

From the article linked to from that article:


> Looser DRM Flagging for content  The ATI Tuners will get a firmware update that will relax DRM. I believe this means that only content flagged as protected by the cable company will have DRM  all other content should be DRM-free unlike current CableCard recorded content.


Note that that is SPECULATION. Also, what specifically does 'protected' mean? Copy never?



> As part of the relaxed DRM mentioned in #2 above, Microsoft and CableLabs are allowing CableCARD customers more portability for content marked as "copy freely" (CF) on other PCs, devices and portable media.


That sounds like what you can do with a Tivo now.

I'm not defending Tivo.. the way more tuners in one device sounds good to me. Not enough to get some Windows box (until possibly they get dirt cheap and I could theoretically get one box and LEAVE it on that version of the OS and use it as if it were an appliance -- AND it could spin down and sleep -- so it would hopefully be using less power over time compared to a Tivo).


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I'm for anything that increases the use of cablecards, at least until something better comes along. Getting cards is a tremendous hassle, and the TiVo HD base is tiny. The latest letter from the cable cos. to the FCC had less than 500,000 cards, and over 13 million STBs.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mattack said:


> Sorry, how exactly have the DRM requirements been relaxed?


I believe currently the DRM on cable card tuners restricts playback to only the PC regardless of how the provider has flagged the content. You could still play it back via the extender, but you couldn't transfer the show to another PC or do things like commercial removal. With the update I believe the tuner will now flag the shows based off how the provider actually flags the content. For example Fios doesn't flag anything but if you recorded a show currently on a cable card PC you still couldn't transfer it to another PC due to the DRM. In the future this wouldn't be the case.



mattack said:


> I'm not defending Tivo.. the way more tuners in one device sounds good to me. Not enough to get some Windows box (until possibly they get dirt cheap and I could theoretically get one box and LEAVE it on that version of the OS and use it as if it were an appliance -- AND it could spin down and sleep -- so it would hopefully be using less power over time compared to a Tivo).


I don't see why you couldn't do this with Win 7. My Win 7 RTM pc sleeps unless it is downloading guide data, recording shows, backing up to the server, or doing the daily optimization process. It goes into suspend mode after 10 minutes of inactivity and boots up 10 minutes prior to recording. Also with wake over LAN set it boots up once the 360 tries to connect to it.

Obviously prices will come down. Hauppauge has also now announced they will have cable card tuners out by the end of 2009. Also with things like the new Intel line prices on the base specs will only go down.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

lafos said:


> I'm for anything that increases the use of cablecards, at least until something better comes along. Getting cards is a tremendous hassle, and the TiVo HD base is tiny. The latest letter from the cable cos. to the FCC had less than 500,000 cards, and over 13 million STBs.


That may be in consumer devices, but since July 2007 the cable providers have been required to use CableCARDs in all of their new leased boxes. By the end of 2007, though they'd only leased 300K or so cards for consumer equipment, they were up to 2.5 million used in their own equipment--it's gotta be some 6 or 7 million by now.

<tru2way> equipment, both leased and at retail, will use M-Cards.


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## SGR215 (Jan 20, 2004)

Wow, I'll be buying a 4 tuner version the moment they come out. Turning my home media server into a DVR, capable of streaming throughout the house, will be a massive upgrade! 

This definitely is a serious threat towards Tivo.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

SGR215 said:


> Wow, I'll be buying a 4 tuner version the moment they come out. Turning my home media server into a DVR, capable of streaming throughout the house, will be a massive upgrade!
> 
> This definitely is a serious threat towards Tivo.


Keep in mind the current WHS doesn't support tuners, but I don't know what you are using for your media server. Power Pack three does add some functionality like automatic copying of recorded TV to the server. Most seem to hope and some possibly expect WHS2 which should be out sometime within the next year to support tuners not to mention offer a 64 bit client since it will be based off Windows Server 2008 versus 2003 which is what WHS is based off of.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

SGR215 said:


> This definitely is a serious threat towards Tivo.


I don't know about that. I'm sure some enthusiasts may migrate from Tivo to HTPC, but in the general populace there aren't even a lot of people who are willing to go to the trouble/expense of setting up a Tivo, much less an HTPC.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

If (and that's a big if) this enables a Windows 7 HTPC to become a popular product, then maybe Apple will see the value of competing. Maybe they will get off their lazy arrogant a**es and develop some products of their own.

But that's wishful thinking.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

It is, because all of those companies are responsible. And so they're not going to throw money into something that their better judgment indicates does them no good. And that all falls back on to mass-market consumers not kicking in their contribution to the system.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

One point that many are overlooking is the fact that the six-tuner model will only be available in a turnkey Media Center PC. While it is true that HTPCs tend to interest only a niche crowd, many home theater enthusiasts use them in their configurations for the versatility they offer. With a plug-and-play Media Center PC there is nothing to build or tweak or fret over because it should work correctly right out of the box (knock on wood). Chances are you'll end up paying a premium price for a prebuilt PC of this type (i.e., well over $1,000). 

Considering the only monthly fees you'd have to pay is for a single M-card, it could still end up costing you far less than three Tivo HD's with monthly fees attached and definitely less than three Tivos with lifetime service. Installing a CableCARD in a prebuilt Media Center PC should be no different that setting them up in a Tivo HD from the perspective of your local provider. Actually, the same would hold true for the CableCARD tuner that's been installed in a working PC. As long as you make sure the tuners are working prior to setting up the CableCARDs in them you should be golden. The end user should be able to determine fairly easily whether there's a problem with the PC or the CableCARD/tuner. If not, the PC or tuner manufacturer should be the first ones to call for support, not your local CableCo (common sense is required here and not consumer panic). Anyone that has the skills to build their own HTPC should also be able to troubleshoot problems to this level.

I built my first HTPC about 2-1/2 years ago and now it's become the primary component in my Home Theater system. With six ATSC tuners I can record any local network OTA show I want in HD via my rooftop antenna and I pay $0 in monthly fees for the privilege. A four-tuner CableCARD tuner will replace my two S3 Tivos and four S-cards. It not only saves me money but it also gets rid of two extra components in my HT setup. 

I think this arrangement would tend to appeal to many people, including those that never considered owning a Media Center PC before. With Media Center utilities built into two current versions of Vista (Home Premium and Ultimate) as well as the upcoming Windows 7, many people already have PCs with PVR capabilities and other Media Center functions. All they need to do is add a tuner and they're ready to record shows off the air.

To me it's the logical next step. The only thing that's prevented me from using my HTPC for recording both OTA programming and HD content from FIOS is the expense and added components it would require (i.e., individual STB and Hauppauge HD-PVR for each tuner). A multiple-tuner CableCARD device is exactly what I've been waiting for, as have many others. M-card support is just icing on the cake. 

I love my Tivos but they won't be around long once these tuners hit the market. This will definitely spell the end of Tivo, at least in my household.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

mikeyts said:


> I like that arrangement.
> 
> My main problem with this is that it _is_ a support nightmare (as Windows itself is) and a nightmare that the cable operators should have very limited responsibility for. A bug that's preventing your CableCARDs from working on a network connected, general-purpose operating system could be due to anything, including something that you have running in the background that you're completely unaware of. As a firmware developer, I've done quite a lot of bug chasing and I'd hate it if the system that I was trying to debug might have any arbitrary mix of hardware and software installed and running on it in addition to the application that I was required to fix. Obviously people have to do that kind of debugging for application software and hardware to be installed and used on Windows, but not on the have-to-make-it-work-for-each-individual-customer-complaint basis that cable customer service has to operate under.


Hardware/Software configurations shouldn't matter at all since it is only the standard CC PCI card that is being paired. The tech could pull the card, put it in his standard mini-computer, pair the CC with the PCI card, hand it back to the consumer. The rest is up to the consumer..


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

spocko said:


> I don't know about that. I'm sure some enthusiasts may migrate from Tivo to HTPC, but in the general populace there aren't even a lot of people who are willing to go to the trouble/expense of setting up a Tivo, much less an HTPC.


I think it all depends on what type of user you are.

If you have only one TV, don't record a lot, and don't use features like TTG, I don't see you making the switch but my guess is a lot of those people are using cable company DVRs anyway.

If you are someone who has two TVs, and you record two completely separate sets of shows like one is just for kids, then it probably won't be you even though it may be cheaper if you don't have a Tivo yet or haven't made the jump to HD yet.

Now if you are someone who has at least 1 if not more at every TV, uses TTG and MRV, plays with things like Streambaby and KMTTG, why wouldn't you at least test the waters.

If you are someone who already uses something like a 360 over your home network running programs like TVersity and Play On, I don't see a reason you wouldn't try this now unless you are just that opposed to using Windows.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how PCs with Cable Cards would replace our pair of TiVo HD boxes. 

Am I supposed to buy a pair of computers and put one in the bedroom closet and one in the living room entertainment center? Other than not having a TiVo service charge, how is that better than a TiVo?

And what about the software? Will I have all the same functionality I have now when it comes to Season Passes, Wish Lists, trick plays, etc?


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

macplanterguy said:


> Other than not having a TiVo service charge, how is that better than a TiVo?


I agree and it seems to me if you go ahead and spring for TiVo lifetime service on the TiVo you will wind up with lower intital cost and than a good HTPC and then you won't even have the TiVo service charge.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SGR215 said:


> Wow, I'll be buying a 4 tuner version the moment they come out. Turning my home media server into a DVR, capable of streaming throughout the house, will be a massive upgrade!
> 
> This definitely is a serious threat towards Tivo.


like has been said already - it is quite the opposite. This will not get more people to buy a PC to record TV - that is a barrier that has little to do with capabilities of the hardware/software.

Now people inclined toward using a HTPC, and that does include high end installers putting in expensive Home Theater setups, will now have a great option in cable cards on HTPC. This will apply more voices, and more voices that really know what they are talking about, towards everyone getting cable cards handled well and efficiently - this is a serious help for TiVo


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> Now if you are someone who has at least 1 if not more at every TV, uses TTG and MRV, plays with things like Streambaby and KMTTG, why wouldn't you at least test the waters.


that is me  Why I would not test the waters? Because TiVo is rock solid for me and I can transfer shows on my wired network without having to wait to start watching the show and I can rip all my movies to my plain jane 400$ Vista PC and have that serve them up via PyTiVo to every TiVo in the house with transfers about twice real time and thus start watching them instantly as well.

The interface is great and everyone down to my 11 year old uses it no problem.

Also Netflix works great and I can stream to two different TV's already at HD, which playon does not do and there is not worrying about playon running on the PC correctly and getting the stream and netflix not blocking it, etc...

3 Tivo HDs - 900$
3 lifetimes - 1,000$
this is really not more expensive then the kind of 6 tuner HTPC with extenders needed to replace that.

so while I can see someone wanting to Go HTPC for all the bells and whistles it can bring along, especially now that cable cards are finally in the mix - I do not see how there is any definitive better than going on here nor any specific compelling reason to want to switch out something that has been rock solid and easy to use.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

macplanterguy said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how PCs with Cable Cards would replace our pair of TiVo HD boxes.
> 
> Am I supposed to buy a pair of computers and put one in the bedroom closet and one in the living room entertainment center? Other than not having a TiVo service charge, how is that better than a TiVo?
> 
> And what about the software? Will I have all the same functionality I have now when it comes to Season Passes, Wish Lists, trick plays, etc?


As far as the DVR functionality itself, both are comparable. TiVo does some things Windows Media Center cannot and vice versa. Windows 7 offers some nice season pass options not on TiVo, while TiVo offers superior autorecord functionality with its wishlists. The key differences are in the initial setup, UI design/performance, media center functionality, multi-room extender support, plug-in support, and advertising.


Windows 7 MC features a modern, graphics-intensive 16:9 HD interface. This interface is _blazing fast_ -- everything is virtually instantaneous. Some usability was sacrificed for graphics eyecandy.

 Windows 7 MC _crushes_ TiVo when it comes to media center integration for music and PC video file playback.

 Windows 7 MC supports remote extenders. This duplicates the full Windows 7 Media Center experience on networked extenders located throughout your home. From every extender, you can browse the guide, watch liveTV, schedule recordings, and watch recorded programs through the Windows 7 Media Center PC (with its storage and tuners) located elsewhere in your home. You can watch different liveTV channels and watch different recordings on multiple extenders _simultaneously_.

At this time, all Windows Media Center extenders are discontinued outside of the Xbox360, but more are expected in the first half of 2010 for under $200.

 Plug-in support. End users have written various plugins, such as those to automatically detect commercials on recorded programs, so recorded programs are played without commercials. Other add-ons allow you to skip the entire commercial break with a single button press (think original ReplayTV).

 There's no advertising anywhere in the Media Center UI.

For a video demo of Windows 7 Media Center on an Xbox360, see *this link*.

In 12 months, you'll be able to buy a 4-tuner CableCard device for your Windows 7 PC at a cost of $300 or less. Extenders for each room should cost $150-$200. For $1000, you'll be able to add a 4-tuner CableCard device to your computer, a 2TB hard drive, and three extenders for three different rooms, with no monthly fees. Each extender can be used simultaneously to access the guide, liveTV, and recordings stored on the Windows 7 PC.

If Microsoft has its way, future CE devices (such as Samsung and Pioneer Blu-ray players) will incorporate extender functionality, so they can act as Media Center extenders in place of a separate box.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

macplanterguy said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how PCs with Cable Cards would replace our pair of TiVo HD boxes.
> 
> Am I supposed to buy a pair of computers and put one in the bedroom closet and one in the living room entertainment center? Other than not having a TiVo service charge, how is that better than a TiVo?
> 
> And what about the software? Will I have all the same functionality I have now when it comes to Season Passes, Wish Lists, trick plays, etc?


BKDTV broke it down above me but I wanted to add a few things. You have several options how to setup your Media Center.

1. A HTPC at every TV. While the most expensive option this would allow you to put tuners at every tv. The tuners as far as we know won't be pooled but you would still be able to had up to 4 tuners of each type on each PC. This would be more like the current Tivo model.

2. A HTPC at your main TV and an extender at the second TV. This would give you all the benefits of the HTPC including sites like Hulu and Netflix directly on the main TV. You would then use an extender, Xbox 360 for example, to access everything on the HTPC. When using an extender for the most part it works as if you were using the HTPC itself and is just as fast. Pick a recorded show and hit play and you are watching immediately with trick play options. Also you have the ability to delete shows via an extender along with scheduling recordings and for the most part everything else.

3. A HTPC at your desk or in a central location with one extender on each TV.

It all depends on what you want to do.

One benefit which to those who record a lot is more than two tuners. This means no running to another Tivo to set a season pass when you have two shows set on the main box. This also means all your recordings in one location accessable anywhere in the house you hook up an extender. Think of it more like a centralized server with each device viewing the same contents.

For example you could rip every DVD/BD you own and have it accessible from anywhere with coverart, detailed info, and screenshots most of this handled automatically with plugins.

As far as recordings go the shows can be set similar to wishlists or season passes. For example all my shows are set for any channel, new episodes only, and HD preferred along with record 5 minutes later whenever possible. I could have easily said instead record only channel 8, new and repeats, HD only and record ontime. It is simply a change of the toggles versus having to setup a wishlist or season pass and you can change it at anytime. You also have default option so you can pick a show in the guide and say record as series and it will use your default options.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> Windows 7


You lost me right there. I don't give my money to Microsoft.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

mr.unnatural said:


> With six ATSC tuners I can record any local network OTA show I want


Wow, how could there possibly be 6 things worth recording at once on network TV? 

On a different note, it will be interesting to see how the cable co's price their services for these new HTPC tuners. Will they allow 6 tuners on a single cablecard and treat it as a single "outlet", or will they find a way to charge additional outlet fees?


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

spocko said:


> Wow, how could there possibly be 6 things worth recording at once on network TV?


With various subchannels, the possibility even for me is growing.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

macplanterguy said:


> You lost me right there. I don't give my money to Microsoft.


Ah, yes. The "I'll spite myself" perspective. I can respect that.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

I agree that this is a neat turn of events, but as someone who considered going with a SageTV or Vista CC setup and ended up going with Tivo, I'll offer my 2 cents.

I personally have a SFF computer in my living room that I use for playing movies I've bought on unbox, DVDs, etc.

1. The viewing experience with extenders has a fair number of downsides. A lot of applications (netflix, hulu, amazon unbox, etc) won't work with extenders (unbox should work-but several of the extenders wouldn't actually play back successfully.) They also tend to have very slow interfaces (the xbox 360 being an exception, but it's kind of large and noisy).

2. While some people were able to achieve stable setups, for others, myself included, it never reached the stability and reliability level that I'd want for a TV viewing device. Problems persist with drivers. codecs, etc. When it was just me I didn't mind fiddling with it, but my wife would beat me like a drum if she had to periodically reboot the television.



bkdtv said:


> As far as the DVR functionality itself, both are comparable. TiVo does some things Windows Media Center cannot and vice versa. Windows 7 offers some nice season pass options not on TiVo, while TiVo offers superior autorecord functionality with its wishlists. The key differences are in the UI design/performance, media center functionality, multi-room extender support, plug-in support, and advertising.
> 
> 
> Windows 7 MC features a modern, graphics-intensive 16:9 HD interface. This interface is _blazing fast_ -- everything is virtually instantaneous. Some usability was sacrificed for graphics eyecandy.
> ...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

spocko said:


> Wow, how could there possibly be 6 things worth recording at once on network TV?


Been there, done that. It's easy to record six or more shows simultaneously if you pad your recordings. As to the worthiness of what you record, that's entirely left up to the taste of the person doing the recording and not a topic I want to open up in this thread. FWIW, you can record six or more shows from _ANY _channel with the CableCARD tuners so you're not limited to just network programs anymore.

Everyone seems to be focused on these tuners being limited to Windows Media Center. What you're missing is the fact that third party apps, such as BeyondTV and SageTV, will undoubtedly incorporate these tuners into their database of compatible tuners once they become available. SageTV has media extenders that allow you to stream all kinds of digital media to any TV in the house. All you'd need is a centrally located Media Center PC connected to a home network and a media extender at every TV in the house. Granted, this is not a setup for the average consumer, mainly because they are more comfortable with commercial devices like a Tivo and don't mind paying the price for convenience.

Personally, I like Tivos a lot but I like to keep my money even more. My HTPC already has many of the same capabilities as my Tivos, if not more. I can schedule recordings online via BeyondTV and have had this feature long before Tivo ever incorporated it. The options an HTPC offers goes far and beyond what you can do with your current Tivos. Try playing a PC video game via your Tivo on a 60" screen while recording your favorite show or play a Blu-Ray movie. When it comes to versatility, you can't beat an HTPC.



macplanterguy said:


> You lost me right there. I don't give my money to Microsoft.


I'm no Microsloth fan either, which is why I'm still running XP Pro on my HTPC instead of Vista. I prefer third party apps over some conglomeration of embedded apps that MS feels we absolutely can't live without in the latest OS they want to shove down our throats.

The ironic part of this discussion is that I hang out in a lot of HTPC forums and when people ask about the best way to record from FIOS or digital cable I always tell them to get a Tivo to use in conjunction with their HTPC. I can no longer provide that kind of advice knowing who my target audience is. We all want a single device that consolidates control of everything we want to watch or listen to in the way of home entertainment media. I expect people here to want to stick with their Tivos vs. an HTPC because it's something they're familiar with and probably aren't as adventurous as the HTPC crowd. The WAF is definitely a huge incentive to stick with Tivos. I was certainly reluctant to get into it myself, but since I'm a bit of a tweaker and experimenter, I thought I'd give it a shot. I've had my ups and downs getting it right but I've never regretted taking the plunge. Now I can't see my Home Theater system without a Media Center PC, but I'm starting to see one sans Tivos, which is something I would have never even considered in the past.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> One benefit which to those who record a lot is more than two tuners. This means no running to another Tivo to set a season pass when you have two shows set on the main box. This also means all your recordings in one location accessable anywhere in the house you hook up an extender. Think of it more like a centralized server with each device viewing the same contents.
> 
> For example you could rip every DVD/BD you own and have it accessible from anywhere with coverart, detailed info, and screenshots most of this handled automatically with plugins.


with TiVo I see all my shows in now playing and if I want tosee something from another TiVo I do that via now playing list - all my shows are in one central screen.
on top of that I do not have to see all my kid's shows in the main now playing list - but they can easily copy a show down from the bonus room TiVo and watch it if they want to.

as for DVDs - I use metagenorator and have detailed description from Netflix on all the movies I ripped to the PC. Frankly I am not much enamored of a graphical interface with coverart and all that. The text works fine for me and then the graphical part is the actual video 

so the "running" to another TiVo is a slight annoyance but I would rather that inconvenience and have the now playing's catagorized by TiVo and thus location/type of content and keep the annoyance of where to set a scheduled recording- since I do that maybe 8 times a year.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Everyone seems to be focused on these tuners being limited to Windows Media Center. What you're missing is the fact that third party apps, such as BeyondTV and SageTV, will undoubtedly incorporate these tuners into their database of compatible tuners once they become available.


I hope that you're right, but I'd be very, very surprised. The underlying secure DRM infrastructure for doing using an OCUR tuner is extremely complex and would require major changes to these programs.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> Everyone seems to be focused on these tuners being limited to Windows Media Center. What you're missing is the fact that third party apps, such as BeyondTV and SageTV, will undoubtedly incorporate these tuners into their database of compatible tuners once they become available.


 I do not forsee open source and cablelabs being buddies. I wonder how the above will really go.



> SageTV has media extenders that allow you to stream all kinds of digital media to any TV in the house.


 I feel no limitations in this regard with TiVo. I have a TiVo at each TV and play my music, have my photos and podcasts and DVD rips and recorded shows. What else is really needed to stream off a PC? Netflix, youTube or Hulu? only missing one is Hulu and that is by Hulu's bsuiness model which they can keep.



> The options an HTPC offers goes far and beyond what you can do with your current Tivos. Try playing a PC video game via your Tivo on a 60" screen while recording your favorite show or play a Blu-Ray movie. When it comes to versatility, you can't beat an HTPC.


 sure they are versatile but having a video game console and a blue ray player works just as well if not better. You want all in one box and I like 'appliances' that do their specific task well and be swapped out as needed. Again, this is no compelling win for either side - just pros for one type of person and cons for another type of person.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Sounds to me that it would enhance the functionality of cablecard tivos...


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

bicker said:


> Ah, yes. The "I'll spite myself" perspective. I can respect that.


How am I spiting myself? It's not like there aren't excellent alternatives.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Your message implied that you wouldn't consider all your available alternatives based on what each provides you. Instead, you implied that you'd eliminate some alternatives, without considering them solely on what each alternative actually offers, solely on what I suppose you'd consider "principle". That's your prerogative, of course, but in doing so you could (could) be eliminating the alternative that is the best based solely on what the alternative actually offers. That's "spiting yourself".

I hope that clears it up for you.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Everyone seems to be focused on these tuners being limited to Windows Media Center. What you're missing is the fact that third party apps, such as BeyondTV and SageTV, will undoubtedly incorporate these tuners into their database of compatible tuners once they become available.


PC CableCard tuners are not like ATSC/ClearQAM tuners that can be easily supported on different platforms. These PC CableCard tuners only function when they are combined with a CableLabs' certified DRM implementation. For the foreseeable future, a CableCard tuner will only function in Windows when it is combined with Microsoft's DRM. Unfortunately for third parties, Windows 7 doesn't have a public DRM API that others can "tap into" to display and record content.

In theory, BeyondTV and SageTV could write their own DRM implementation and seek CableLabs' certification, but that would probably take years (not months).



mr.unnatural said:


> I can schedule recordings online via BeyondTV and have had this feature long before Tivo ever incorporated it.


TiVo added remote scheduling in early 2003, three months before the first public version of BeyondTV and almost 9 months before BeyondTV added a program guide. The TiVo itself predates the first computer DVR software (i.e. software with ability to pause liveTV) by more than a year. TiVo predates the first computer DVR software with a program guide by about two years.



fyodor said:


> 2. While some people were able to achieve stable setups, for others, myself included, it never reached the stability and reliability level that I'd want for a TV viewing device. Problems persist with drivers. codecs, etc. When it was just me I didn't mind fiddling with it, but my wife would beat me like a drum if she had to periodically reboot the television.


I too had the same problems.

For two months, I used a Vista CableCard PC from Dell. Periodically, the ATI OCUR tuners would simply stop working, and a reboot was required to restore them. If you've ever experienced the "loss of analog tuner" bug on a TivoHD, this is essentially the same thing on Media center, except it affected the digital channels.

This problem issue didn't occur every day, or every week, but more like 3-5 times a month. I'd turn on the TV to find that my programs from the past 1-2 days did not record because the OCUR tuners had "gone out." I found this unacceptable, so I didn't keep the system for long.

Windows 7 is supposed to *significantly* improve the reliability of the CableCard platform on the PC. Reports of CableCard tuner reliability with Windows 7 RC (release candidate) are good so far, but we'll have to wait until W7 is out and more are using it to be certain.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

While this whole Windows 7 thing is very compelling, I have always liked the ability to change out one component at a time. I would never buy a home theatre system where all the bells and whistles were in one box - The Blu-ray and amp and game console and internet streaming and tuners and DVR and More - all built into one box. I know you can change out components in your computer rather easily, but your whole system could be down because of one failed part (think power supply). It's like when the printer/fax/copier/scanner etc goes down, nothing works.

And yet I am likely to still consider Windows 7 and this 'advancement' it souds great and some of you have been using it rather successfully. Yet, the TiVo is so easy. I get one, plug it in, and it works (Ok, just a little more complicated than that).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> In theory, BeyondTV and SageTV could write their own DRM implementation and seek CableLabs' certification, but that would probably take years (not months).





ZeoTiVo said:


> I do not forsee open source and cablelabs being buddies. I wonder how the above will really go.


agreed and my question still stands.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bicker said:


> Ah, yes. The "I'll spite myself" perspective. I can respect that.


Adding more Microsoft Windows products to your life is the very definition of spiting oneself. Life only gets better as you remove Windows from it.

The average consumer doesn't want or need a bloated PC operating system running in their media center. They don't need six tuners and they don't want to care about patch Tuesdays or how long it will be before some virus or patch or update or configuration change renders their device useless. They don't want to have to haul it into Best Buy and have geek squad "fix" it with a wipe and reload.

Yes, I'm sure a lot of MS fans and some people who want to avoid monthly fees will go this route and they'll profess that it all works perfectly between bouts of figuring out why it's not. This is why Microsoft is losing market share: they're stuck on selling Windows when what people really want is solutions.

Aside from all of that, this is good news for consumers in general. To whatever degree people are willing to suffer through using Windows in their media center it will provide competition for TiVo, and TiVo usually responds well to open competition. It also expands the consumer cable card market and provides an option for companies who might join the media center marketplace given access to commodity hardware.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Engadget obtained a *few nuggets* on potential pricing:



> Of course the key is the price -- isn't it always -- and when we asked Gary how much it would be, he asked me how many we wanted. So we said it depended on the price and he said the price [of the quad-tuner card] depends on how many are ordered. You can see where this went, so after some going back and forth we went with balpark estimate of less than $600, but more than $300. This might seem like too much at first, but not when you consider that four AMD Digital Cable Tuners cost $1200, and you need four CableCARDs instead of one (so rental fees of $12/mo instead of $4). Obviously if a Xbox Live subscriber could just pay $300 for a quad tuner for his Windows 7 PC instead of a TiVo HD at the same price, it is a no brainer, but the amount of volume needed to drive the price down that much seems difficult, at least initially.


Sounds to me like the launch price will run somewhere between $399 and $499 for the quad-tuner card.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

nrc said:


> Adding more Microsoft Windows products to your life is the very definition of spiting oneself.


No it isn't.



nrc said:


> Life only gets better as you remove Windows from it.


No it doesn't.

Sounds like you're really into FUD today. Why not, instead of trying to make your own animosity for Microsoft sound like something that it isn't, just say you don't like Microsoft. Do you think that your own personal preferences are of so little value that you need to make them sound like something more than what they are?


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## riz (Dec 30, 2000)

innocentfreak said:


> ...
> 
> 2. A HTPC at your main TV and an extender at the second TV. This would give you all the benefits of the HTPC including sites like Hulu and Netflix directly on the main TV. You would then use an extender, Xbox 360 for example, to access everything on the HTPC. When using an extender for the most part it works as if you were using the HTPC itself and is just as fast. Pick a recorded show and hit play and you are watching immediately with trick play options. Also you have the ability to delete shows via an extender along with scheduling recordings and for the most part everything else.
> 
> 3. A HTPC at your desk or in a central location with one extender on each TV.


Can you go into a more detailed comparison for these two? I would prefer to build a HTPC and replace my current server pc in the garage .. its got lots of hdds, lots of fans and is LOUD but who cares, it's in my garage  and then use the 2 360's I already own for the two tvs I have in living room and game room.

Is there any disadvantage to this over installing the HTPC at my main setup (gameroom) and then living room 360 as extender. Does the 360 as an extender have any disadvantages over the htpc installed at one of the tvs? you mentioned hulu, does that NOT work through extenders but would work on a HTPC hooked directly to the HDTV?

thanks for your thoughts!
riz


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

mikeyts said:


> then they should be allowed to charge.


I wonder if you'll be singing the same tune when you've paid the cable company over $200 in truck roll fees to have CCs installed in your TiVos.

Since they are technically capable of allowing the end-user to insert the cable card and call the company with the necessary pairing information, they should not be allowed to charge for the truck roll when the only reason for it is an administrative choice on their part and they don't make that same choice regarding their own CableCARD equipped devices.

I can go to the office right now and pick up one of their DVRs with a CC and bring it home and pay no installation fees whatsoever. If I want my new TiVo to have CableCARDs, however, I have to schedule an appointment and pay them $35 per card to install them. And they won't give me an M-Card.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bicker said:


> Sounds like you're really into FUD today. Why not, instead of trying to make your own animosity for Microsoft sound like something that it isn't, just say you don't like Microsoft. Do you think that your own personal preferences are of so little value that you need to make them sound like something more than what they are?


I'm sorry, I thought I made that abundantly clear. I don't like Microsoft. Everyone else is free to like them or dislike them as they wish.

My view is based on 25 years of experience with them. At some point it stops being FUD and starts being common sense. The average consumer has past that point and Windows market share is falling as a result.


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## riz (Dec 30, 2000)

any HTPC guys wanna comment on a Gateway DX4200-09 1.8GHz Quad-Core 4GB DDR2 640GB SATA HDMI Vista Home Premium, refurb is only 295 shipped, is that enough to just handle a win 7 config with the quad card for just hdtv media center capabilities, it would not be used for anything else but hidef media center yumminess!


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

riz said:


> any HTPC guys wanna comment on a Gateway DX4200-09 1.8GHz Quad-Core 4GB DDR2 640GB SATA HDMI Vista Home Premium, refurb is only 295 shipped, is that enough to just handle a win 7 config with the quad card for just hdtv media center capabilities, it would not be used for anything else but hidef media center yumminess!


At this point, you might as well wait for Windows 7's release before buying a new computer. Intel also just released its next-generation i5 and i7 CPUs; you can read about them on Anandtech.

The Ceton card is still 4-6 months away so I don't see a rush to buy a new PC now.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

riz said:


> any HTPC guys wanna comment on a Gateway DX4200-09 1.8GHz Quad-Core 4GB DDR2 640GB SATA HDMI Vista Home Premium, refurb is only 295 shipped, is that enough to just handle a win 7 config with the quad card for just hdtv media center capabilities, it would not be used for anything else but hidef media center yumminess!


I think that there's a thread about it at AVSforum in the HTPC section.

F


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## riz (Dec 30, 2000)

bkdtv said:


> At this point, you might as well wait for Windows 7's release before buying a new computer. Intel also just released its next-generation i5 and i7 CPUs; you can read about them on Anandtech.
> 
> The Ceton card is still 4-6 months away so I don't see a rush to buy a new PC now.


ya was just thinking that. I have my prepaid tivo until January which maybe perfect timing to see how this ceton card plays out.. and of course pcs only get cheaper in time so waiting is the best option i agree!


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

riz said:


> any HTPC guys wanna comment on a Gateway DX4200-09 1.8GHz Quad-Core 4GB DDR2 640GB SATA HDMI Vista Home Premium, refurb is only 295 shipped, is that enough to just handle a win 7 config with the quad card for just hdtv media center capabilities, it would not be used for anything else but hidef media center yumminess!


I thought about biting on it but noticed J&R Computer has the same computer, only new, for just $60 more.


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## JamieP (Aug 3, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> mr.unnatural said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone seems to be focused on these tuners being limited to Windows Media Center. What you're missing is the fact that third party apps, such as BeyondTV and SageTV, will undoubtedly incorporate these tuners into their database of compatible tuners once they become available.
> ...


Neither BeyondTV and SageTV are open source software, as far as I know, so I'm having difficulting connecting the dots between mr.unnatural's statement and your reply to it. Were you thinking he meant MythTV or did you mean "third party (non-microsoft) software vendors" rather than "open source"?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> with TiVo I see all my shows in now playing and if I want tosee something from another TiVo I do that via now playing list - all my shows are in one central screen.
> on top of that I do not have to see all my kid's shows in the main now playing list - but they can easily copy a show down from the bonus room TiVo and watch it if they want to.


True and I do also. I actually need to upgrade my sig since I have 3 Tivo HDs with lifetime. I think one of the key words is copy. Over my wired network it takes an hour and 45 minutes to transfer one HD one hour recording. On my 360 it plays instantly from my PC so I am already spoiled since I don't plan ahead what I am going to sit down and watch.

For the most part I am a single user household so this isn't a concern for me so I haven't really looked into it. Out of the box they don't have folders for recorded TV, but there might be something you could do to setup an automatic copy into folders which are monitored for videos. These would then show up under Video versus TV.

You could also always leave the Tivo setup as it is if they are lifetime already and just add an extender to their room and the HTPC to your room or another room. This way it still works the same.



ZeoTiVo said:


> so the "running" to another TiVo is a slight annoyance but I would rather that inconvenience and have the now playing's catagorized by TiVo and thus location/type of content and keep the annoyance of where to set a scheduled recording- since I do that maybe 8 times a year.


For me it is pretty big since I deal with it pretty regularly enough that having a central recording list will be extremely nice. It already is just for local channels since I can just add a show without worrying what order I put them in. I don't have myself organized like it sounds you do where each Tivo leans towards a certain type of recording such as one for kids, one for movies, and one for TV. For me I am usually trying to figure out what Tivo has what show when I want to watch something.



riz said:


> Can you go into a more detailed comparison for these two? I would prefer to build a HTPC and replace my current server pc in the garage .. its got lots of hdds, lots of fans and is LOUD but who cares, it's in my garage  and then use the 2 360's I already own for the two tvs I have in living room and game room.


If you are running something like WHS I would probably just keep the server and build a HTPC especially since power pack 3 is supposed to automatically transfer all recorded TV to the server. I haven't had a chance to play with beta so I don't know what else they added but it seems like they are slowly adding 7MC features.



riz said:


> Is there any disadvantage to this over installing the HTPC at my main setup (gameroom) and then living room 360 as extender. Does the 360 as an extender have any disadvantages over the htpc installed at one of the tvs? you mentioned hulu, does that NOT work through extenders but would work on a HTPC hooked directly to the HDTV?
> 
> thanks for your thoughts!
> riz


I think it all depends on what you want to do. With HTPC you would be able to watch sites like Hulu and anything else you can do on a normal PC now. You would have access to Netflix without needing two gold accounts if you go with two 360s. You would just be viewing it through the TV. I have yet to really play with this option myself since I have so many shows recorded I don't really ever go looking for more.

If you are paid up through January honestly I would just start reading and thinking about what you want to do. If you plan to upgrade your current PC to Windows 7 come launch I would just throw in a cheap tuner like the Avermedia Duet White box which is their OEM card to play with Media Center. This way you could at least try OTA or clearqam recordings. Or if you can still find the beta you could always dual boot and try it out. You can pick up a dual tuner card for around $50-$60.

I didn't think I would like it nearly as much as I did until I tried it. It won't be for everyone since you will miss things like dual buffer if you watch a lot of live tv, which I watch none, but depending on how you want to use it, it may either be a great companion to Tivo or alternative.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I have no desire to go back to using an HTPC for viewing HD. I did that back from 2001 to 2006. Although things are so simple now compared to setting things up in 2001. 
The only way I would even consider going back to using a PC as a DVR would be if they offered the TiVo interface for it. Otherwise, I'll stick with my TiVos. I can already transfer any recording I make from FIOS on my TiVos to a PC for permanent storage so I don't see any advantage in switching back to PC recording.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

nrc said:


> My view is based on 25 years of experience with them. At some point it stops being FUD and starts being common sense.


There is no rational foundation for asserting one's own personal animosity translates into *common* sense. Regardless of how long you've held your grudges, they are your own *personal *sense, nothing more.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bicker said:


> There is no rational foundation for asserting one's own personal animosity translates into *common* sense. Regardless of how long you've held your grudges, they are your own *personal *sense, nothing more.


You can call it what you want. 25 years of personal and professional experience has proven to me that Windows is neither reliable or maintainable. The market share trend reflects that users recognize this and are tired of it. What is evident in the trends right now is only the tip of the iceberg. As the next generation of users moves into the workplace and find themselves no longer tied to their business desktop the trend will accelerate. When you see it happening remember who explained it to you first.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

nrc said:


> The average consumer...
> They don't need six tuners...


While they likely don't want 6 tuners for themselves, think of a whole family. That's 6 tuners right there.

and as someone else mentioned, at least with the way Tivos do it (yes I know others have said some other DVRs do it "the right way" and presumably this could to), with padding, you essentially halve the "real" number of tuners you have, if you ever need to record shows that abut one another.

I guess I have 6 tuners right now (7 if I plugged in an unsubbed s1), 4 of them being analog only and thus much less useful nowadays.. (2 of those 4 could be digital if I got more cablecards.) and I already record way more than I can watch.. but I would LOVE having those 6 tuners in one device..

Not enough to get rid of the Tivos I have now, but in the future it's compelling.. Especially if they release a Mac version of the card + software. (I know that the discussion has been about Windows Media Center -- but this specific discussion has been about new cablecard tuners.. Heck, even "VCR-like" recording would be fun to play with with that many tuners..)


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> Windows 7 offers some nice season pass options not on TiVo


It's not like I'm likely to use it anytime soon if ever, but can you elaborate?

(I'd suspect "day-based" season passes, or more geeky features like "record only once in 24 hours, starting with this timeslot" kinds of things to workaround the previous daily show issues.)


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

nrc said:


> You can call it what you want. 25 years of personal and professional experience has proven to me that Windows is neither reliable or maintainable. The market share trend reflects that users recognize this and are tired of it. What is evident in the trends right now is only the tip of the iceberg. As the next generation of users moves into the workplace and find themselves no longer tied to their business desktop the trend will accelerate. When you see it happening remember who explained it to you first.


Past experience only tells us so much. In general, I don't think it's a good idea to completely dismiss a product -- be it an OS or DVR -- before you've spent time with it. Published reviews and end-user reports are virtually unanimous -- Windows 7 is the best version of Windows yet in terms of both usability and reliability.

Competition is good, so I would like to see Apple invest in a CableLabs' certified solution for digital cable. Unfortunately, recent comments from Apple's CFO suggest they have no interest in the DVR space. For now, Microsoft, Moxi, and TiVo are the only [known] companies investing in CableCard-compatible, third-party DVR solutions.



mattack said:


> It's not like I'm likely to use it anytime soon if ever, but can you elaborate?
> 
> (I'd suspect "day-based" season passes, or more geeky features like "record only once in 24 hours, starting with this timeslot" kinds of things to workaround the previous daily show issues.)


You can see a few of the options in the Engadget video. Fast forward to 2:20.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

Apple wants to tie you to iTunes and Apple TV. This is probably why they don't support Blu-Ray either.

To those of you who are bashing MCE Win 7 without even using it, you are out of your mind. Even in Vista, Media Center rocks. All of my entertainment is unified in one place and the UI in my opinion beats TiVo. And I've owned four TiVos. 

Add to that no monthly fee? Sounds like a no brainer to me.


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## SGR215 (Jan 20, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> Keep in mind the current WHS doesn't support tuners, but I don't know what you are using for your media server. Power Pack three does add some functionality like automatic copying of recorded TV to the server. Most seem to hope and some possibly expect WHS2 which should be out sometime within the next year to support tuners not to mention offer a 64 bit client since it will be based off Windows Server 2008 versus 2003 which is what WHS is based off of.


I'm actually using ubuntu server right now but I'll be upgrading it to Win7 ultimate in the next couple days via MSDN. I'm already using it on my main rig and love it. 

The estimated price is a bit harsh but Comcast charges huge STB/DVR fee's so I'll save in the long run and even further if it proves to be better than Tivo. One CC rental for the entire house would save me a ton a month. I'd definitely pick one up even if they costed $800+/-. Obviously I wouldn't be too quick to get rid of my Tivo though. I'd have to compare the two and decide whether it's worth it. I did assume it'd be much cheaper though so it's not as much of a threat as I originally thought. Regardless, I'm definitely going to buy one once they are available. Even if it's just a Tivo backup or for shows/movies I want to keep a long time. :up:


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

nrc said:


> 25 years of personal and professional experience has proven to me that Windows is neither reliable or maintainable. The market share trend reflects that users recognize this and are tired of it. What is evident in the trends right now is only the tip of the iceberg.


By your logic TiVo is all but gone. They went down from 35% market share to less than 5%. Must be that users recognized how bad TiVo is and it is evident from the trend that iceberg is all but melted.
Microsoft market share is down not because Apple is taking over high end users, but because more and more cheap desktops and netbooks are using Linux.
There is nothing wrong with Windows. Your 25 years experience means nothing because Windows has not been around for 25 years and if you haven't learned in 25 years that software and operating systems do improve with time, you might as well claim 50 years of experience - makes no difference.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

nrc said:


> blah blah blah


There is no rational foundation for asserting one's own personal animosity translates into common sense. Regardless of how long you've held your grudges, they are your own personal sense, nothing more.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

^^ I think you just like to bicker.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> The only way I would even consider going back to using a PC as a DVR would be if they offered the TiVo interface for it.


How about this one?


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> The only way I would even consider going back to using a PC as a DVR would be if they offered the TiVo interface for it.


which poses a question,

Will these new cablecard tuners work with Nero's Tivo-for-pc clone LiquidTV?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> How about this one?


BeyondTV was the DVR software I used. They have a TiVo interface now?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

SGR215 said:


> I'm actually using ubuntu server right now but I'll be upgrading it to Win7 ultimate in the next couple days via MSDN. I'm already using it on my main rig and love it.


If you have an empty PCIEx1 slot, pick up the Avermedia Duet which you can get for like $60. It supports OTA/Clearqam and one card has dual tuners. This way you can play around with recordings just to see what you think and also see if it is even for you.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Another thing to remember is that if you go with the 4-tuner card and extenders you might be able to eliminate the 'extra digital outlet' fees that cableCos charge for CCs in extra Tivos (or extra STBs). If you don't have a need for VOD/PPV and can live with a 4-tuner setup and extenders for your whole house, you can potentially save some cash every month because you'll only need one M-card.

I don't agree with zeo that this does not pose a competitive threat to Tivo. It does, but not in large numbers because most people don't want to fool with a HTPC.

BTW the 'anything but Microsoft' stuff is just ridiculous. Windows XP, Server 2003, etc. have been just as reliable as any other OS. Outside of having to patch every month (automatic, not manual), we've had no problems with running Server 2003 apps at work, I've had the same XP installs for years on every PC in the house and at work, etc. I don't care for Microsoft personally and don't think they are as easy to maintain as Unix OS' but I can't say that they're unreliable. 
It's just a religious thing when you say you won't get a 7MC HTPC setup, because there's no technical justification for it otherwise. I run a Myth box myself for clear QAM HD recordings but have no reluctance to switch to 7MC for my house once the 4-tuner cards come down to a reasonable price level (mine is $300 or less).


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> BeyondTV was the DVR software I used. They have a TiVo interface now?


I doubt that--it looks like someone doctored their GUI.

Of course, there's always Nero Liquid TV, DVR software with an authorized TiVo GUI for your PC (sold on TiVo's site, no less ). There's even a TiVo remote for PC. Apparently it can handle up to four tuners, though only two will have trick-play buffers.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bicker said:


> ...I know that, over 25 years, bicker has almost become this "character" I play on the Internet. I simply don't care about things as much as it may seem like I do, by what I post (though I do believe those things just as much).





macplanterguy said:


> ^^ I think you just like to bicker.


He does. It's his self-avowed trademark. He's a master at restating the obvious in an irritating way!


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> BeyondTV was the DVR software I used. They have a TiVo interface now?


They have various skins available for download from their forum. The image I posted was a screenshot of one that was made to look like the Tivo UI. I've been using BeyondTV for a couple of years now and I like it every bit as much as Tivo's. It's easy to navigate and quite user friendly, IMHO.

UI's are a personal preference for a lot of people. My main concern is that it provides me with the necessary functions and access to use the PVR software the way I want. BeyondTV does exactly that, which is pretty much all you can ask of any app. I haven't tried SageTV yet but there are lots of satisfied users of that program as well.



bkdtv said:


> PC CableCard tuners are not like ATSC/ClearQAM tuners that can be easily supported on different platforms. These PC CableCard tuners only function when they are combined with a CableLabs' certified DRM implementation.


I believe that if you go back and read through the link I provided you will find that the DRM restrictions are being lifted, hence the reason why the CableCARD tuners will be sold individually and not part of a turnkey solution. This is the key to having these tuners installed in a generic HTPC. You're no longer restricted by the DRM and OEM requirements originally imposed on them. The Win 7 platform will apparently adhere to any CableLabs DRM requirements, allowing you to use the tuners on a Win 7-based PC.

Here's a link to the official news release from Microsoft:

http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayR...STORY=/www/story/09-09-2009/0005091086&EDATE=

The question is whether or not third party apps installed on a Win 7 platform will be able to use the tuners or if you're stuck with using Win 7 Media Center for recording your shows. Note that even though there is a supposed limitation to the number of tuners you can use in Media Center, there is a simple registry hack that will enable the use of more tuners.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Microsoft*
has repeatedly vowed to 'own the living room too'. QAM tuning has certainly hurt TiVo in side by side comparisons. The rise of Media Center and Moxi should have TiVo looking at shoring up thier business model. TiVo has been skating along since introducing the Series3/TiVoHD and the lack of new product is ever harder to ignore.

Without a new and exciting product by CES in January TiVo may become little more than an industry footnote and a intellectual property lawsuit shop...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> I don't agree with zeo that this does not pose a competitive threat to Tivo. It does, but not in large numbers because most people don't want to fool with a HTPC.


umm - a *competitive* threat involves large numbers by default. Therefor you actually agree with what I am saying just as I agree with your thoughts. Now that anyone who wants to do HTPC has little worry about that last barrier to cable company HD they can jump in wholeheartedly and will.

However to say that HTPC use will gain real numbers with this news is just as off the mark as saying that Tivo would get a significant boost in subs if the news was "no agreement on cable cards for Windows PCs".

Oh and the rise of MOXI will need to have a bit more in the way of real numbers as well. anyone know how MOXI is doing sales wise?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

samo said:


> By your logic TiVo is all but gone. They went down from 35% market share to less than 5%. Must be that users recognized how bad TiVo is and it is evident from the trend that iceberg is all but melted.


I don't entirely disagree but the reasons simply support my argument.

Convenience is one of the prime factors in consumer decisions. TiVo ranges somewhere between impossible and somewhat inconvenient as a choice for consumers depending on their programming provider. As long as TiVo is substantially less convenient than other options they'll lose market share until they reach the level where their features outweigh their challenges. Whether that will be a sustainable level remains to be seen. At their current cash burn rate they only have about 15 years to turn it around.

All of that said, the notion that another solution that is even less convenient than Tivo is going to mean "the end of them" doesn't hold much water.



> Microsoft market share is down not because Apple is taking over high end users, but because more and more cheap desktops and netbooks are using Linux.


I never said that it was about Apple. Users are moving away from Windows in favor of tools that more convenient, efficient, and enjoyable for accomplishing what they want. That encompasses an entire array of devices that share the attribute of "not Windows".



> There is nothing wrong with Windows.


Epic quote.



> Your 25 years experience means nothing because Windows has not been around for 25 years and if you haven't learned in 25 years that software and operating systems do improve with time, you might as well claim 50 years of experience - makes no difference.


I first saw Windows in a pre-release demo in the fall of 1984. So this fall marks the 25th anniversary of my first encounter with Microsoft's long history of underachievement on their Windows product line.

The notion that "software improves with time" may be true at a very high level, but on a product by product basis it's not always true relative to what customers want. Microsoft had reams of information about why Windows NT, Windows Me, and Windows Vista were improvements over their predecessors but they failed to meet user needs and expectations.

Even if Windows 7 is an improvement over its predecessors in many respects, as a general purpose operating system Windows 7 shares all of the major attributes of Windows that make it a poor choice for a device for the average consumer to put in their entertainment center.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I believe that if you go back and read through the link I provided you will find that the DRM restrictions are being lifted, hence the reason why the CableCARD tuners will be sold individually and not part of a turnkey solution. This is the key to having these tuners installed in a generic HTPC. You're no longer restricted by the DRM and OEM requirements originally imposed on them. The Win 7 platform will apparently adhere to any CableLabs DRM requirements, allowing you to use the tuners on a Win 7-based PC.


You misunderstand the announcement.

The DRM restrictions were not lifted. They were modified. Before, DRM was applied to every recording made from an encrypted channel. Now, DRM is only applied to recordings from encrypted channels flagged as "copy one generation." With these changes, PC OCUR devices now function more like TiVo in how they handle protected content.

The requirement of a CableLabs' certified DRM still remains. As indicated above, this DRM is used on recordings from cable channels (or programs) flagged as "copy one generation." On most Comcast systems, only the premium movie channels are flagged as such; on Brighthouse and Cox systems, all cable channels are flagged as such.

If third-party applications could access and use Microsoft DRM through a public API, then other DVR applications could use it to record and playback content. Unfortunately, there is no such mechanism in Windows 7. I don't know whether that was Microsoft's choice, or a requirement of CableLabs; certainly, it is CableLabs' interest to tightly control/restrict protected content.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> [...on Brighthouse and Cox systems, all cable channels are flagged as such.


 It's more accurate to say *some* Cox systems (I think only Phoenix & Virginia areas). In my area Cox only flags the premium channels - everything else is not flagged and works fine for TTG/MRV, etc.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

moyekj said:


> It's more accurate to say *some* Cox systems (I think only Phoenix & Virginia areas). In my area Cox only flags the premium channels - everything else is not flagged and works fine for TTG/MRV, etc.


Point taken. I actually meant to say Brighthouse and Time Warner.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> Of course, there's always Nero Liquid TV, DVR software with an authorized TiVo GUI for your PC (sold on TiVo's site, no less ). There's even a TiVo remote for PC. Apparently it can handle up to four tuners, though only two will have trick-play buffers.


The software requires paying for a yearly subscription so it wouldn't be that useful for someone who's main purpose of going to a PC is to avoid subscription fees.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> I don't agree with zeo that this does not pose a competitive threat to Tivo. It does, but not in large numbers because most people don't want to fool with a HTPC.


I think one problem is everyone keeps thinking that people have to use it as a HTPC. I know I didn't approach it that way.

I stumbled into it when I installed Windows 7 RC and started looking into what it could do. As soon as I found out I could use 4 tuners at once and also saw I could buy those same 4 tuners for $100 I jumped at it. I never planned to use a HTPC since I was able to just access everything from my 360. The only thing it did was stop my from buying another Tivo with lifetime. I already had one at both of my two TVs but being able to set one DVR just to handle local shows meant I didn't need another Tivo since it freed up the Tivos from having to deal with shows on at prime time.

I think the problem Tivo will have is it may lose new people who might have considered Tivo but instead just slap a tuner in their new or upgraded pc running Windows 7. These are the people who already have a 360 which is networked. They use programs like TVersity, which according to them has 5 million downloads, and Play On to access content from the 360, and just the idea that they can add a tuner to a pc they are already using makes sense. There isn't a downside to it.

Some might question why hasn't this happened sooner. It makes sense that it hasn't if you look into it, at least to me. On XP you had to buy a specific Media Center edition. My friend is the only person I know who ever bought a PC with it. He loves it for playing his CD collection, but that is all he ever used it for. Then came Vista which included it in most versions. Well we all know how successful Vista was. Then they released a TV pack to OEM builders which introduced support for clearqam among other things, but from what I have read it introduced more problems than it solved.

I hope I haven't given the wrong impression on this board that I want Tivo to fail since for almost 10 years now I have relied on Tivo and it hasn't let me down. At the same time I want the best DVR for me which up until now has been the Tivo, but that may no longer be the case once the cable card tuners are readily available. If Tivo had offered a 4+ tuner version or ones with cooperative recording that had faster transfers and easy immediate viewing from another room, I wouldn't have even looked at Win 7 and I probably would have said so what to these announcements. The fact is they didn't or at least haven't yet. The real question though is will they.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> You misunderstand the announcement.
> 
> The DRM restrictions were not lifted. They were modified. Before, DRM was applied to every recording made from an encrypted channel. Now, DRM is only applied to recordings from encrypted channels flagged as "copy one generation." With these changes, PC OCUR devices now function more like TiVo in how they handle protected content.
> 
> ...


Bad wording on my part. I should have said the DRM restrictions were being reduced and not lifted completely. You are correct in that they have not been removed but rather modified to remove the restrictions limiting CableCARD tuners for use strictly by OEM Media Center PC manufacturers. The flagging of any channels is strictly a function of your local provider. Since I'm with FIOS and they don't currently flag any channels, you can see how I may be more enthusiastic about these tuners than others that have a cable provider. If FIOS continues with their current philosophy and does not flag any channels, then the DRM restrictions have essentially been lifted for FIOS subscribers (sucks to have cable, doesn't it?)

Seeing as how I don't really care if I'm able to transfer shows to my PC for creating DVDs or converting content to upload to the net, it doesn't matter who my provider is. Been there, done that, and all I have to show for it is a lot of unwatched DVDs taking up a huge amount of space. All I want to be able to do is record shows on a hard drive and play them back at my leisure. Having everything on one device makes it more convenient for me to select shows to watch. Not having to pay monthly fees for the Tivo service _PLUS_ the added bonus of reducing my monthly CableCARD rental fees from four cards to one will more than pay for the tuners in the long run. I love Tivos, but I'm loving my HTPC more and more every day.

Media Center software has been in the past two versions of Windows (XP MCE edition was only available on turnkey PCs initially but it can be readily found quite easily; Vista included it in two commercial versions) and will be included in versions of Win 7. When PC owners discover that these features are built into their OS they may be more likely to experiment with it and discover it's quite easy to set up and use. Once that happens, you can bet they won't be looking at Tivo or their TV provider for DVRs they have to pay extra for. You may also start seeing CableCARD tuners being included in more mainstream PCs than ever before.

Adding more fuel to the fire, PC tuner manufacturer Hauppauge has just announce that they will have their own CableCARD tuners available by the end of 2009 with other manufacturers sure to follow. Here's the link:

http://www.gearlog.com/2009/09/hauppauge_to_sell_cablecard_tu.php


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

mr.unnatural said:


> When PC owners discover that these features are built into their OS they may be more likely to experiment with it and discover it's quite easy to set up and use. Once that happens, you can bet they won't be looking at Tivo or their TV provider for DVRs they have to pay extra for. You may also start seeing CableCARD tuners being included in more mainstream PCs than ever before.


Yeah! And when PC owners discover that they can play games on their PC you can bet that they won't be looking at Wii, Xbox, or PS3!

Oh wait, that's exactly the opposite of what is actually happening.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

nrc said:


> Yeah! And when PC owners discover that they can play games on their PC you can bet that they won't be looking at Wii, Xbox, or PS3!
> 
> Oh wait, that's exactly the opposite of what is actually happening.


You might have a valid point if the content was identical on both platforms, console or PC, but since it isn't you can't really compare the two. 
To put your comment another way...

Well when people realize they can play games on their phone they will give up their consoles.

Oh wait that isn't happening. Of course it isn't happening.

To make the same argument with regards to a DVR that would be like saying when PC owners realize they can record local channels only which is pretty much all they can do right now, they will be giving up their Tivos which can record any channel.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

There will always be a market for Tivos and cableco DVRs, regardless of what happens with the CableCARD tuners. People like the convenience of recording shows with a DVR and don't mind paying for it. Others, like myself, like to tinker and relish the thought of owning a HTPC that can do a multitude of tasks with no extra fees attached. I've had a lot of fun with it and have encountered only a few minor problems with the setup that were easily resolved in the 2-1/2 years I've owned it. 

Using a PC as a DVR is ridiculously simple to setup and use. Blu-Ray playback is a bit more problematic and involved, but nothing anyone with moderate computer skills can't achieve. My only regret is that I have not been able to use it to record encrypted channels from FIOS and have had to supplement it with Tivos for that capability. That shortcoming will soon be remedied.

HTPCs are definitely not everyone's cup of tea. I certainly don't expect everyone to start building or buying turnkey HTPCs just because CableCARD tuners will become available to the masses. I do expect sales of these tuners to be brisk, especially among the current HTPC crowd. People that have been sitting on the fence with regards to acquiring an HTPC will probably be swayed to take the plunge now that the final hurdle has been overcome. This has been a major limiting factor for many people, as evidenced by the multitude of posts asking about HTPCs and their capabilities from inquiring newbies in the HTPC forums.

I rarely embrace any new technology or products until they've been out for a while, but I would have no hesitation coughing up the cash to be an early adopter of one of these four-tuner Ceton units. I put in my pre-order for Win 7 Pro several months ago so I'll be ready for it when the tuners are released. The 3-year prepaid service plan on my first S3 Tivo will expire in February and the second one expires a few months later. The timing of the release of the Ceton tuners couldn't have been any better.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Wait, isn't the new card alone more than a TiVo?

Isn't it an internal card only? Yeah I can see average Joe opening up the case to add one in.

I can't see this appealing to many people who do not already have an HTPC.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

SullyND said:


> Wait, isn't the new card alone more than a TiVo?


No one has a price yet though they say $300-$600 depending on the size of the order. I wouldn't be surprised to see it around $399-$499 at launch or $100 or so a tuner so yes more than one Tivo but less than two.



SullyND said:


> Isn't it an internal card only? Yeah I can see average Joe opening up the case to add one in.


First off adding a card is as easy as upgrading a sound card or video card.
Also yes the first card is an internal 4 tuner card. They also have plans to offer a 6 tuner for OEM builders, a 2 tuner card, a low profile card for HTPCs, and a USB external option similar to the current ATI external cards.

With Hauppauge now also saying they will develop cable card tuners, I wouldn't be surprised if they also offer external options like the HD PVR and their other external options.



SullyND said:


> I can't see this appealing to many people who do not already have an HTPC.


I still think people are underestimating people who already have a setup they could use this in and the only thing missing is the Windows 7 PC since they are currently using XP or Vista.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> First off adding a card is as easy as upgrading a sound card or video card.


Changing the oil in your car is easy too. There is a reason Jiffy Lube exists. I've built my own computers in the past. I know adding cards is easy, but I also know I'm not the average consumer. I know a ton of people who have never opened a computer in their lives. They're going to run out and get a card like this instead of a TiVo?



innocentfreak said:


> I still think people are underestimating people who already have a setup they could use this in and the only thing missing is the Windows 7 PC since they are currently using XP or Vista.


I'm sure there are already a lot of people who own MCE and are not using it. I've booted it up exactly twice on my computer (I have home premium). I don't see this, nor Windows 7, changing that.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Is there a link somewhere to a good site that shows Windows 7 Media Center in action?
I have Vista Home Premium and my laptop came installed with an OTA (ATSC) tuner & BD-ROM with HDMI output, so a while back I use laptop as an HTPC and tried out Media Center for a little and found it pretty hard to use, and the DVR related functions were minimal at best.

So unless there's been a pretty radical change to Media Center with Windows 7 I can't say I'm too impressed by my initial trial, brief as it was, but perhaps it's time to try it out again...

EDIT: Never mind about a link, engadget has a pretty extensive review.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> I still think people are underestimating people who already have a setup they could use this in and the only thing missing is the Windows 7 PC since they are currently using XP or Vista.


Your point is not valid though - just about any PC sold in best buy for the last 3 years at least has had Media Center on it. This is not a new thing that you could buy a cheap tuner card and get analog cable or OTA to record on the PC. For those that upgrade the PC bought a little bit to the 700$ or more range you started to see tuner cards included in base configuration.

the average person out there is simply not of a mindset to hook their PC up to their TV for viewing. - That is the real roadblock. When TVs get to the tipping point that significnat % of homes can use DLNA to watch the show on the PC on the TV then you start to see some buy in. Even at that it means they plugged their TV into the network. Many people just do not think that way and it will take generational change to create a market looking to use tech in such a fashion.

The availability of expensive tuner cards that the end user has to install and then figure out how to see on their TV is not a game changer in the least.

I could still talk to 100 people at random on the street and find many barely get what DVR would do for them let alone questions about specific types of DVRs.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

SullyND said:


> Changing the oil in your car is easy too. There is a reason Jiffy Lube exists. I've built my own computers in the past. I know adding cards is easy, but I also know I'm not the average consumer. I know a ton of people who have never opened a computer in their lives. They're going to run out and get a card like this instead of a TiVo?


Obviously at first the demand is going to be from the HTPC users or the people like me on the edge waiting for an option like this. I think if this works as well as all the testers say it does and the early adopters don't have any major problems you are going to then see people who already have a compatible setup start trying it out. These of course would be the people who are already replacing their own video cards and sound cards or doing some other type of upgrade. Then I think if demand is high enough, you will start to see companies like HP and Dell including at least 2 tuner options in their builds.



SullyND said:


> I'm sure there are already a lot of people who own MCE and are not using it. I've booted it up exactly twice on my computer (I have home premium). I don't see this, nor Windows 7, changing that.


I am not talking about having MCE, but having a setup where they have a 360 networked to a PC especially where they are already using options like TVersity and Play On to stream content. If you are already doing this, I don't see why you wouldn't try a tuner out also.



moyekj said:


> Is there a link somewhere to a good site that shows Windows 7 Media Center in action?
> I have Vista Home Premium and my laptop came installed with an OTA (ATSC) tuner & BD-ROM with HDMI output, so a while back I use laptop as an HTPC and tried out Media Center for a little and found it pretty hard to use, and the DVR related functions were minimal at best.
> 
> So unless there's been a pretty radical change to Media Center with Windows 7 I can't say I'm too impressed by my initial trial, brief as it was, but perhaps it's time to try it out again...


I know there was a link posted earlier in this thread since it was mentioned when we were discussing season pass options. There is this video on endgadgethd.


> For the most part, as you'd expect the RTM build is identical to the RC, sans the bugs, but there are plenty of upgrades over Vista Media Center. Many of these new features were also in the TV Pack, but in our book that doesn't count. For starters it was OEM only, and thus you could only get it (legitimately) by buying a new PC, but the real reason is because it was so buggy, it was beyond usable.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> I am not talking about having MCE, but having a setup where they have a 360 networked to a PC especially where they are already using options like TVersity and Play On to stream content. If you are already doing this, I don't see why you wouldn't try a tuner out also.


Wait, now I not only need a card that costs more than a TiVo, but also a game console which costs more than a TiVo? Yeah, average consumer is going to be all over that.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Your point is not valid though - just about any PC sold in best buy for the last 3 years at least has had Media Center on it. This is not a new thing that you could buy a cheap tuner card and get analog cable or OTA to record on the PC. For those that upgrade the PC bought a little bit to the 700$ or more range you started to see tuner cards included in base configuration.


I may very well be wrong, but I don't think I will be over the long run. Then again as long as the option is now out there I will be happy since no one else is giving me the option for a large number of tuners in a single box which I have been asking for years.

I agree it isn't a new thing, but Vista also didn't have a high adoption rate. Also I would imagine some people think like I did where why am I going to bother with a HTPC when it can only record local channels when my DVR/Tivo can record every channel. Also previously I didn't have a 360 so I wasn't aware how easy the setup was or how seamlessly it worked.



ZeoTiVo said:


> the average person out there is simply not of a mindset to hook their PC up to their TV for viewing. - That is the real roadblock. When TVs get to the tipping point that significnat % of homes can use DLNA to watch the show on the PC on the TV then you start to see some buy in. Even at that it means they plugged their TV into the network. Many people just do not think that way and it will take generational change to create a market looking to use tech in such a fashion.


I agree it is definitely a hurdle, but this is why I think you will see some of the 360 market adopt it first after the dedicated HTPC market. Their 360 is already plugged into that network.



SullyND said:


> Wait, now I not only need a card that costs more than a TiVo, but also a game console which costs more than a TiVo? Yeah, average consumer is going to be all over that.


You may want to re-read my comment. This would be why I said people who already have a 360 networked. Since they already have this setup, I would expect this to be the next market after the HTPC and those on the edge who have been waiting for an option like this before building a HTPC as I said previously. I never said I expect people to run out and buy 360s to do this setup. I just figured if you already had a setup why wouldn't you try it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> I may very well be wrong, but I don't think I will be over the long run.


over the long run - needing tuners goes away and more of the content is simply downloaded.

This does tie into the 360 installed base nicely for now and with downloading in the long run - so those of the mindset to stream content to the 360 is indeed the very target the makers of the cable card enableed tuners should have dead in their sites right now.

Still this will one day be a blip on the timeline that is content when and where you wnat it.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> over the long run - needing tuners goes away and more of the content is simply downloaded.
> 
> This does tie into the 360 installed base nicely for now and with downloading in the long run - so those of the mindset to stream content to the 360 is indeed the very target the makers of the cable card enableed tuners should have dead in their sites right now.
> 
> Still this will one day be a blip on the timeline that is content when and where you wnat it.


Oh I agree. I meant more as in over the next two years versus the long long run. Downloading content is obviously the future assuming the speeds come up and caps don't stop it.

I can't wait until the day I can pull up any show and access any episode immediately. Until then I will just keep adding tuners and recording everything and anything that looks interesting.


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## jfstx (Aug 26, 2005)

I need another tivo....but tired of holding out.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> Oh I agree. I meant more as in over the next two years versus the long long run.


Ok, and my point all along has been that in 2 years these cable card tuners wont have any perceptible increase in total number of media centers actually in use.

We will see many posts on people using cable card HTPC - I am sure of that - and cool ones like your envinsioned setup of 4 tuners in one PC along with other tuners for OTA and ATSC and how you need nothing else and serve up to the whole house etc..
I may well even post "Look into cable card tuners on your PC" for people that would seem a good way to go.
But the overall numbers of HTPCs in 2 years, I do not see any kind of increase. HEck stable working cards and drivers may still be 12 months away.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Just tried using MCE under Vista Home Premium with a single ATSC tuner and didn't work too well - crashed 4 times trying to scan channels and then some more when trying to bring up guide to schedule something. Doesn't give me a warm fuzzy about this prospect, but then again Vista continues to underwhelm despite being much improved with SP2. [shrug]


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Interoperability*
of the Xbox 360 to act as a Media Center extender for that Windows7 box is a strong consideration. That extensive installed base alone could be a problem if customers realize they already own the 'bedroom box' they wanted. Another factor would be that the Xbox is probably network connected for gaming so wiring changes are minimized.

Realizing TiVo requires 2 subscriptions, an ongoing monthly cost that the Media Center/Xbox does not have, even if the initial price for hardware investment is equal. Not an insignifigant thought in the current economy for many citizens.

I'm not so certain that the public at large is as untalented as many report when it comes to installations. Certainly there are some truths in the jokes, but somebody is buying all that stuff from Frys/MicroCenter/NewEgg/ZipZoomFly and it only takes one technically adept person in thier houshold or circle of friends to get things working. People will often pleasantly suprise you if given a chance with just a little assistance and encouragement from thier technically inclined friends...


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

JJ said:


> *Interoperability*
> of the Xbox 360 to act as a Media Center extender for that Windows7 box is a strong consideration. That extensive installed base alone could be a problem if customers realize they already own the 'bedroom box' they wanted. Another factor would be that the Xbox is probably network connected for gaming so wiring changes are minimized.


How many non-single people have their Xbox as their "Bedroom Box"?



JJ said:


> Realizing TiVo requires 2 subscriptions, an ongoing monthly cost that the Media Center/Xbox does not have, even if the initial price for hardware investment is equal. Not an insignifigant thought in the current economy for many citizens.


Even with lifetime for both boxes TiVo is a less expensive option.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

SullyND said:


> Wait, now I not only need a card that costs more than a TiVo, but also a game console which costs more than a TiVo? Yeah, average consumer is going to be all over that.


That's a bit of an overreaction (i.e., the sky is not actually falling). The price points for the various tuners has yet to be set so the actual cost is purely speculation at this point. However, the cost of the 2-tuner model will probably be less than a single Tivo HD and the 4-tuner model will probably be much less than a single Tivo XL. Consider the cost of a lifetime sub for the Tivo and you've more than doubled your investment in the Tivo HD vs. the tuner. The basic PC can be used for other purposes and can be most any dual-core PC @ 2GHz or better upgraded with an HDCP-compliant video card. Chances are the PC you're currently using could be easily and economically upgraded to a Media Center PC if you bought it within the past 12 months or so.

The XBox 360 serves multiple uses and offers features your Tivo never will. Besides, the extenders are really only needed if you plan on having digital media available in other rooms. The major cost benefit to owning an HTPC with CableCARD tuners is the lack of monthly Tivo service fees or lifetime subs. You can easily pay for a mid to high-end HTPC with the lifetime service fees you'd save on multiple Tivo HDs.

The main stumbling block I'm seeing here is that many of you appear to be reluctant to having an HTPC in your home. I felt the same way until I decided to give it a shot. After all, what could have possibly been better than the Tivos I'd been enjoying for the previous 8 or 9 years (not to mention the ReplayTVs, UltimateTVs, DirecTivos, and HDTivos I'd also owned over that time). The result was not only revolutionary but also evolutionary. Having an HTPC is the next logical step in home entertainment, especially if you are looking for a way to enjoy Home Theater and not just another way of watching TV.

While I do agree that streaming content from the internet will probably be the primary method for getting digital media into the home sometime in the future, I don't feel that it is yet ready for serious enthusiasts. I have yet to see any downloaded content that can rival OTA HD or a Blu-Ray disc for picture quality. I have seen Hulu and NetFlix, among others, and the thought that they may be the future is downright depressing.



SullyND said:


> Even with lifetime for both boxes TiVo is a less expensive option.


And where exactly did you get your math degree? Two Tivo HDs with lifetime subs will cost you well over $1000 (I don't know the current pricing structure for lifetime subs on multiple Tivos but I believe the 1st sub is about $399 and additional subs run about $299 with new Tivo HDs running between $200-250 and considerably more for the XL model.). You can buy a basic PC for under $500 with the basic requirements (I see them selling for well under that price on a daily basis at dealnews.com). With the 4-tuner card speculated to be selling for about $400, you've already saved yourself about $100-300. Did I also mention that you can add whatever size hard drives you like without any special software tools or Linux expertise?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I consider myself an average person. I have 2 TivoHDs and an S2ST all with lifetime service. I have a computer with a home network. This computer is currently running the W7 RC and I'm intrigued with the possibility that all I would have to do is add a PC tuner card and I could be recording TV with it.
But am I going to do it? 
No.
That is only because I already have what I need for recording TV and with the extras like Netflix, I have more TV to watch than I have time.
Consider most of the people I know aren't into watching TV like I do wouldn't even bother _thinking_ about setting up a HTPC.
So as of now, I don't really think there's a big market for this.
Now when HTPCs become commonplace, I feel that Tivo will need to start worrying, but I don't think that will happen anytime soon.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

SullyND said:


> How many non-single people have their Xbox as their "Bedroom Box"?


*100%*
at my house. Your mileage may vary...


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> While I do agree that streaming content from the internet will probably be the primary method for getting digital media into the home sometime in the future, I don't feel that it is yet ready for serious enthusiasts. I have yet to see any downloaded content that can rival OTA HD or a Blu-Ray disc for picture quality. I have seen Hulu and NetFlix, among others, and the thought that they may be the future is downright depressing.


I've seen a few HD Netflix titles which rival broadcast television, but certainly not every HD Netflix title does. Considering that it's pretty damn low bit rate VC-1, it's quite good, but, being 720p24, it will never being to compete with Blu-ray. Hulu's "high def" stuff is hooey--good for catching a missed episode of a TV series, but I certainly wouldn't watch a movie like that.

Sometime this Fall, Microsoft is launching a Zune Video Store (combining the Zune and Xbox Live video stores), which will offer "instant on", 1080p streaming videos with a player which will dynamically and transparently adapt to bandwidth fluctuations. It's a technology that they call "Smooth Streaming" (a part of Silverlight 3.0) and you can see a demo of it here.

I don't think that Blu-ray is going anywhere soon, but Jane and Joe Average are going to have a hard time telling the difference and are likely to be very satisfied with HD streaming over a good broadband connection.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

steve614 said:


> I consider myself an average person.


Which is why this thread probably does not apply to you. HTPCs are generally used by people that like to push the envelope and aren't content with a plain vanilla DVR. I don't expect every existing Tivo owner to ditch their Tivos and build an HTPC with a CableCARD tuner. I'm looking at future sales to potential Tivo owners that may be sitting on the fence. If you've never owned a DVR but have a PC, these tuners could push you in the direction of an HTPC vs. a Tivo when you weigh all the advantages each has to offer. The cost savings of an HTPC would be a huge factor to someone on a budget.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mikeyts said:


> I've seen a few HD Netflix titles which rival broadcast television, but certainly not every HD Netflix title does. Considering that it's pretty damn low bit rate VC-1, it's quite good, but, being 720p24, it will never being to compete with Blu-ray. Hulu's "high def" stuff is hooey--good for catching a missed episode of a TV series, but I certainly wouldn't watch a movie like that.
> 
> Sometime this Fall, Microsoft is launching a Zune Video Store (combining the Zune and Xbox Live video stores), which will offer "instant on", 1080p streaming videos with a player which will dynamically and transparently adapt to bandwidth fluctuations. It's a technology that they call "Smooth Streaming" (a part of Silverlight 3.0) and you can see a demo of it here.
> 
> I don't think that Blu-ray is going anywhere soon, but Jane and Joe Average are going to have a hard time telling the difference and are likely to be very satisfied with HD streaming over a good broadband connection.


You'll also never find a streamed title that contains Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD audio either. You're darned lucky if you can find them with Dolby Digital soundtracks (I haven't viewed one in a while so this may have changed since then). For a Home Theater setup, audio is every bit as important as video when it comes to the whole experience.

No doubt you'll have to pay for anything you download using the Silverlight software. I'd rather continue renting Blu-Ray discs from NetFlix, which will undoubtedly cost less (do you really want to give Microsoft more money?). I just got through watching the first three episiodes of "Torchwood: Children of Earth" on Blu-Ray this weekend and the picture quality was simply amazing. I find it extremely difficult to watch anything on standard definition DVDs after seeing something that looks that good. Most downloaded material I've seen is downright pathetic by comparison.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

SullyND said:


> Even with lifetime for both boxes TiVo is a less expensive option.


Untrue. Including the price of an Xbox360 for an extender, an HTPC + 360 setup could be had for under $1200, which is about what it would cost for a couple of Tivo HD's with lifetime ($250 x 2 + $399 + $299 subs). And you'd get WAY more recording space and internet, media playing, etc. capabilities with the HTPC setup. Don't forget that there are commercial skip plugins for 7MC as well, which is a big plus to this former ReplayTV user.

Also don't forget that you'll be paying a monthly 'extra digital outlet' charge for any Tivo after the first.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

steve614 said:


> Now when HTPCs become commonplace, I feel that Tivo will need to start worrying, but I don't think that will happen anytime soon.


actually TiVo would be estatic if HTPC became commonplace. Then TiVo could actually market its features and benefits vs. an HTPC and be long over the really bad bump of convincing people why they need to spend any money on a DVR at all.

as for others who say download quality is not good for wide acceptance - this again demonstrates that you percieve the market through your hobbyists eyes.
The exact same thing was _correctly_ said about MP3 and digital music. It barely compared to CD quality if it had a high bitrate on the rip and would never come remotely close to analog. DVD formats of HD audio currently languish among hobbyists and download of passable MP3s has exploded. Should I even bother talking VHS versus betamax?

bandwidth for *passable* (the lovely almost DVD) quality video is the barrier and not the delivery of HD. People do not just get much behind DIY TV tech. The ability to flip on a TV and start watching something is just too ingrained in the culture. If they can buy something off the shelf and power it up then that works and the internet has made inroads on hooking that something up to a network but go much beyond that and the target audience drops off rapidly. Also, as seen in TiVo DVR sales, that something to buy off the shelf is seen as only for disposable income and price matters greatly. If I told my neighbors I could get them some cable card tuners to put in their PC they would go cool. Then when I said it was 400$ they would look at me goofy and when I further explained that you would have to call the cable company and have them come out to put the cards in the PC - they would be either like - would you do all that for us (NO) or they would simply ask - why not just have the cable company bring out a DVR for x$ a month and they leave our PC alone.
This is the exact battle TiVo faces for mindshare as well - save for it is a box that sits by the TV just like the cable company DVR. So Good luck selling HTPC to your neighbors. We all hope it takes off big time cause then DVRs finally have a much bigger market, but do not be let down when the reality is that this does not change the DVR market much.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> bandwidth for *passable* (the lovely almost DVD) quality video is the barrier and not the delivery of HD.


You are absolutely correct, which is why I said downloaded content is not yet ready for prime time. If you're content with VHS quality or even barely DVD quality, then Hulu and NetFlix will be nirvana for you.



> If I told my neighbors I could get them some cable card tuners to put in their PC they would go cool. Then when I said it was 400$ they would look at me goofy and when I further explained that you would have to call the cable company and have them come out to put the cards in the PC - they would be either like - would you do all that for us (NO) or they would simply ask - why not just have the cable company bring out a DVR for x$ a month and they leave our PC alone.


How would they react when you tell them that a Tivo XL will cost them about $600 and another $400 for lifetime service and it will also require that their cable company has to send out a technician to install CableCARDs? I'm not seeing a major difference in your philosophy other than the HTPC costing much less. Chances are, these are the types of individuals that would be using the CableCo's DVR anyway and not even bother with a Tivo.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> actually TiVo would be estatic if HTPC became commonplace. Then TiVo could actually market its features and benefits vs. an HTPC and be long over the really bad bump of convincing people why they need to spend any money on a DVR at all.


They wouldn't come off very well in a head-to-head comparo, other than the ease-of-use associated with not having to roll your own hardware. And maybe wishlists, but I don't know how good 7MC's 'find and record all shows' stuff works. 
Feature-wise, 7MC will own both Tivo and Moxi. Cost-wise, Tivo wins for one box but loses thereafter.
I can tell you that Myth blows away Tivo for features (at the cost of complexity), and I wouldn't expect 7MC to be worse feature-wise. There's a lot of power in the ability to customize things as you'd like them to be, not the way Tivo thinks you should.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

If I could have a quiet HTPC that fit easily in my HT cabinet (like my TiVo) or was in another room and just as easily controlled via a remote. If I knew it was less likely to be virus infested and/ or require reboots just to work. This is a real possibility, but the TiVo is so easy to use and I can send video to my TiVo know from my computer. I have a study next to the theatre room with a PC I already use to push video to my TiVo to watch, it would not take much for me to change it into a true HTPC. I would like to better mesh it into my HT setup, but some things (like Blu-ray playback, and dvr needs) I think are better left to my current devices. Down the road, who knows - No need to make the change today and tomorrow TiVo may just catch up and make it cheaper and better.

As far as core dvr functionality is concerned, I trust the TiVo to perform the task better and easier. The MCE that is starting to arrive has many features and is more than just a dvr and a HTPC will certainly do more than a TiVo, but do I need to spend the money for this functionality? Not today, but considering I am an OTA guy - more internet content (with good sound and PQ), more of a chance.

We all know TiVo is better than a cable co dvr, but the low end cable cable dvr has the greatest part of the dvr market. The TiVo share is rather small - I still do not think the average Joe is going to purchase and/ or build an HTPC with these cable cards (total price for setup - $700 to $1500 rather easy I would think) when (s)he can just rent the cheap box from the cable co (or sat guys usually better box, but no TiVo) for a little bit a month. As said before, those with a current HTPC are a prime candidate for these cards, I do think this will continue to be a smaller part of the market for some time to come.

This is still an upper tier or special CE product the average consumer is not likely to spend a lot of time and money on.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

daveak said:


> ... As said before, those with a current HTPC are a prime candidate for these cards, I do think this will continue to be a smaller part of the market for some time to come.
> 
> This is still an upper tier or special CE product the average consumer is not likely to spend a lot of time and money on.


On the contrary!

Most laptops these days come equipped with HDMI outputs and are easily powerful enough to act as a HTPC. Many motherboards now have on-board HDMI and their numbers are increasing monthly. With the much improved Windows Media Center and Windows 7 just a month away and included on most of the PCs sold you can expect that even low end consumer PCs will be effectively functional HTPCs. I imagine more than a few will include tuners giving them DVR functionality out of the box. If not they (the non cablecard variety) are inexpensive add-ons.

Consumers will be quick to connect these boxes to their home theaters first for viewing programming available on the internet on the 'big screens' (which they can't do with the cable company's DVRs (or TiVos for the most part) and then to use the DVR capability.

So the only real issue is will consumers spring for the cablecard capable tuner cards. My guess is many will.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

RoyK said:


> Consumers will be quick to connect these boxes to their home theaters first for viewing programming available on the internet on the 'big screens' (which they can't do with the cable company's DVRs (or TiVos for the most part) and then to use the DVR capability.


But not many are doing it now, but many will do so once they can spend $300-500 for a 4 tuner cable card?

HD programming on the internet requires high speed connections for streaming or quick downloading of HD content. What is the percentage of average US households with at least a 4-5 mb connection? Programming with equal or better sound and PQ is not as easy to come by, though plenty is out there. The average Joe is still mostly watching cable and sat TV and will continue to do so, because it is easy and the upfront costs are min.

Though concerning HT enthusiasts, who are willing to spend good money to foster their habit, I suspect HTPC will increase in use. This may be the tech of the day for some, but for many I suspect it will not happen today, mainstream use may be sometime well into the future. Just because it is better does not mean the majority will do it.

A majority still have a cable co dvr, and seem willing to keep it - even though they could spend some money and get a TiVo and have a better experience.

If an HTPC will cost more money, if even the new tuner cards alone cost more money than a TiVo HD upfront - Why would mainstream America dump their current setup and switch to using a HTPC when they won't do it now to get something better?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

daveak said:


> ....
> Though concerning HT enthusiasts, who are willing to spend good money to foster their habit, I suspect HTPC will increase in use. This may be the tech of the day for some, but for many I suspect it will not happen today, mainstream use may be sometime well into the future. Just because it is better does not mean the majority will do it.
> ...


You miss my point. The entry level low end PC norm is about to become a HTPC - out of the box.

And I live in the boonies yet have a 4 MBit interconnection @ $30/month....


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

daveak said:


> But not many are doing it now, but many will do so once they can spend $300-500 for a 4 tuner cable card?


People seem to be stuck on the initial pricepoint. Keep in mind that is just the initial card. They have plans to offer a USB version and a dual tuner version. Also with other companies like Hauppauge entering the market and possibly Avermedia who already offer a cheap OTA/clearqam tuner, the price could very well drop after initial release.

They may not be willing to spend $300 on a 4 tuner but they might be willing to spend $150 for a 2 tuner when renting a DVR runs $150+ a year.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

RoyK said:


> You miss my point. The entry level low end PC norm is about to become a HTPC - out of the box.
> 
> And I live in the boonies yet have a 4 MBit interconnection @ $30/month....


An entry level low end PC with lossless aduio and 1080p pic quality (and good upconversion)? At least for Blu-ray...  You think an entry level PC with these tuner cards, will be cheaper than a TiVo? Maybe it will be, and have Dolby digital and upconvert to 1080i? It would not need a very big hard drive to compete, but they are rather noisy noisy in an HT room and use a lot more power. Though with an extender (only Xbox right now) it could be somewhere else, but that is extra money.

My point is is that HTPC is not currently mainstream and will not suddenly become mainstream because you can buy $300-600 dollar cable cards. I also do not think a $500 entry level computer as an HTPC is realistic, especially with one of these $300 to $600 cable cards installed. I have never seen a low end box that can do what my HT can do. And considering the money currently invested in my entertainment, I would not suddenly replace certain components with a HTPC.

Maybe it will work for the mainstream market if enough people already have computers available that could easily be used as a HTPC/ DVR and don't mind spending an extra $300 plus just to add the tuners. And no sat support so you can rule that out for now. I just do not see it as being a majority of the market anytime soon.

And Windows 7 will not suddenly make it mainstream either, as you have to either pay for the upgrade or buy a new computer to have it. So you are paying for an upgrade and/ or buying a new computer and getting the new cable cards. How much money? When the mainstream can just keep using there cable dvr for how much a month?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

RoyK said:


> You miss my point. The entry level low end PC norm is about to become a HTPC - out of the box.
> 
> And I live in the boonies yet have a 4 MBit interconnection @ $30/month....


An increasing number of people are using netbooks and even cell phones for portable internet access.

I don't know how many people keep their main desktop computer in the same room as their home theater.

ISPs are consider charging for/or putting limits on bandwidth.

I think cable provided DVRs will continue to be a bigger issue to tivo then HTPC.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

innocentfreak said:


> They may not be willing to spend $300 on a 4 tuner but they might be willing to spend $150 for a 2 tuner when renting a DVR runs $150+ a year.


True. Just like many people would not pay $800 for a series three (original), but rushed out and bought a TiVo HD.

Price matters, upfront pricing even more for the mainstream market. HTPC may be the future for the mainstream, but that future is not today. Can HTPC compete with the cable dvr any better than TiVo? Price matters for most, esp the upfront price.

I wonder if the Series 4 box would/ could be marketed as more of a HTPC than a DVR? We still do not have a good clue on how the architecture will end up, but they have got to be at least thinking of these options. As long as the core dvr function is still reliable.

TiVo is just a small computer anyway, I just can't do as much with it. How well will their next 'computer' compete?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Engadgethd.com put up a poll here questioning what is the most you would pay for a quad HDTV tuner. If anyone wants to chime in.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> You'll also never find a streamed title that contains Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD audio either. You're darned lucky if you can find them with Dolby Digital soundtracks (I haven't viewed one in a while so this may have changed since then). For a Home Theater setup, audio is every bit as important as video when it comes to the whole experience.


I'd agree, but only because I'm an A/V-ophile, which the vast majority of the public are not. Dolby 5.1 is common in downloads and some streaming (not Netflix--they make the excuse that their use of Windows DRM restricts them to WMA Pro for surround sound, which few receivers can play). The new Smooth Streaming titles that MS is about to offer have 5.1 as do many of the downloads in the current Xbox Live Video Store.


> No doubt you'll have to pay for anything you download using the Silverlight software. I'd rather continue renting Blu-Ray discs from NetFlix, which will undoubtedly cost less (do you really want to give Microsoft more money?).


Silverlight is streaming, not downloading, and I have no particular problem _paying_ (as opposed to "giving") Microsoft money for something they're selling that I want. The first streaming titles that they offer in the Zune Video Store are going to be rental-only.

I was just pointing out some indications of where video distribution is headed. Picture and sound quality, while not at Blu-ray levels, will exceed what the average consumer can appreciate and the convenience factor of selecting a film to watch from the comfort of your couch and the "instant on" gratification of streaming are extremely significant. I have no doubt that this sort of thing will catch on fairly quickly. Still, I don't think that Blu-ray publishing is threatened by it.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mikeyts said:


> I was just pointing out some indications of where video distribution is headed. Picture and sound quality, while not at Blu-ray levels, will exceed what the average consumer can appreciate and the convenience factor of selecting a film to watch from the comfort of your couch and the "instant on" gratification of streaming are extremely significant. I have no doubt that this sort of thing will catch on fairly quickly. Still, I don't think that Blu-ray publishing is threatened by it.


Doesn't PPV on most cable systems do this now, you do have a more limited number movies you can order, but no sound, hardware or resolution problems.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm not seeing a major difference in your philosophy other than the HTPC costing much less. Chances are, these are the types of individuals that would be using the CableCo's DVR anyway and not even bother with a Tivo.


exactly - I think this forum has a major tendency to overestimate the appetite of the general market for any kind of DVR solution. Given that low appetite then any kind of solutions where you throw around this component is going to cost 400$ is going to run into trouble with the bulk of the market.

Now for folks like you and me who are into it then it becomes a more value to value and frankly for you to say one wins hands down - when it has so little of the market just negates your argument. It is obvious even in this thread that either approach has merits for some and not for others which is pretty typical.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Cost-wise, Tivo wins for one box but loses thereafter.


Ok - I can have 2 TiVo HD DVRs (I put my own 1 TB drive in each) for 1400 final and forever cost. I can put them on 2 TVs and stream netflix and youtube etc.. at both TVs.
You get a slight edge on 2 M cablecards for TiVo versus the one M card if you use just one PC. But since in my neck of the woods you are talking max of 3 bucks a month - it is not a significant edge.

So give me this costs much less setup that has 4 tuners that can record 4 at a time of a mix of analog or cable or OTA and stream Netflix at both TVs at the same time. Assume a 4 tuner cable card is 400$ and a 2 tuner cable card is 200$.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

lessd said:


> Doesn't PPV on most cable systems do this now, you do have a more limited number movies you can order, but no sound, hardware or resolution problems.


It's been a while since I used cable VOD (do they still have scheduled PPV?), but I remember that what I most disliked about it was poor responsiveness to controls. The library was poor enough for SD titles, but there was very little in the way of HD content. If they've addressed both of those concerns, it might become a contender.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mikeyts said:


> It's been a while since I used cable VOD (do they still have scheduled PPV?), but I remember that what I most disliked about it was poor responsiveness to controls. The library was poor enough for SD titles, but there was very little in the way of HD content. If they've addressed both of those concerns, it might become a contender.


PPV and VOD are two different offerings that cable co have, most all PPV is in HD with 5-1 sound, Comcast in Hartford has a large selection of VOD movies in HD if you are paying for HD service, you do need their HD box also.
I don't think many people purchase TiVos for the movie download capability, only for TV time shifting. After seeing the movie download capability some will use it, but would they purchase a TiVo just because of that capability ?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So give me this costs much less setup that has 4 tuners that can record 4 at a time of a mix of analog or cable or OTA and stream Netflix at both TVs at the same time. Assume a 4 tuner cable card is 400$ and a 2 tuner cable card is 200$.


mr.unnatural already did, but you weren't paying attention. Dirt-simple to build a PC capable of handing this for $400 (or just buy one). Add the 4-tuner card and an Xbox360 and you're looking at just over a grand. And each can stream Netflix on both TVs at the same time. *And you don't have to pay extra digital outlet fees for extenders*. You do have to pay, every month, for the extra Tivo, which is $72/yr in my neck of the woods. I'm jealous that you only pay $3/mo, but on Comcast it's at least $6 everywhere.

BTW analog's soon to be dead (and unreliable on the Tivo HD anyway), and who gives a damn about OTA when you have a quad cable tuner and all your locals are available on cable in HD. I sure don't.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> BTW analog's soon to be dead (and unreliable on the Tivo HD anyway), and who gives a damn about OTA when you have a quad cable tuner and all your locals are available on cable in HD. I sure don't.


I give a damn about OTA HD because it offers better quality than any other consumer delivery system other than Blu-Ray. I use OTA reception for all of my HD locals, even though I can get them from FIOS (which is the primary reason I built my HTPC in the first place). All providers just retransmit the signal from the local stations, which tends to inject a slight amount of degradation from the original local feed. Ideally, I'd love to be able to receive the originating transmission directly from the networks, but that would involve the installation of a BUD (Big Ugly Dish) which would not go over well with the wife or my community association. Otherwise, a rooftop antenna and an ATSC tuner installed in my HTPC gives me a better picture than even FIOS can offer. I'll still use my ATSC tuners for OTA locals even after I install my quad-tuner CableCARD tuner.



mikeyts said:


> Silverlight is streaming, not downloading, and I have no particular problem _paying_ (as opposed to "giving") Microsoft money for something they're selling that I want. The first streaming titles that they offer in the Zune Video Store are going to be rental-only.


Semantics, but it amounts to the (almost) same thing. You're transferring data from an online provider to your PC. The only difference being that it doesn't stay resident on your PC after you're done watching it. The whole point being that you'll probably pay for the digital content, regardless of how it's transmitted.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

I don't know how successful HTPC will be nor will I ever consider using computer to watch or record TV, but what I don't understand is an argument about HTPC cutting into the TiVo sales. How much lower TiVo sales can go?
They sell 10K units a month as it is.
The only way Tivo made money ever was to sue Dish. Perhaps they can take Microsoft to Texas court and have 12 technically illiterate people to decide that Microsoft is infringing. That would offset any lost sales to HTPC.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

HTPC's are pretty much limited to hobbyists and Home Theater enthusiasts at this point, although they've been around for quite a few years. With Home Media Center functionality now available on current Windows operating systems (i.e., Vista Home Premium and Ultimate versions) and soon to be released Windows 7, you will probably see more people experiment with adding tuner cards to their PCs. They're not that expensive (ATSC tuners can be found for $50 or less) and there's no extra software to buy since it's already included in the Media Center option (you probably have the icon on your desktop but never knew what it was for). Still, I don't see it becoming a mainstream configuration for the vast majority of PC owners simply because they'd rather get a turnkey solution from Tivo or their TV provider.

Keep in mind that the HTPC can be displayed on your regular HDTV so you're not limited to viewing recordings on a small PC monitor (personally, I never saw the attraction of watching any type of quality video on a small screen). I watch my HD recordings and Blu-Ray discs on a 60" Sony HD RPTV. Surfing the web and playing PC games on this sucker looks absolutely amazing, although I must confess I don't really use it for either task very often. Web surfing is something I'd prefer to do on my desktop PC.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> HTPC's are pretty much limited to hobbyists and Home Theater enthusiasts at this point, although they've been around for quite a few years.


Technically HTPC predates TiVo. I had an ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon card back in 2000 and it could schedule and record TV and came with a guide. That was the 4th release revision in ATI's All-In-Wonder line. So the technology has been around for at least 13 years and still hasn't really caught on.

The TiVo DVR has been around for nearly a decade and yet they only maintain a small percentage of the total DVR market today, which in itself is only a small percentage of all TV viewing households. If the lack of demand for DVRs and cable DVRs didn't kill off TiVo, I doubt HTPC will.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'll still use my ATSC tuners for OTA locals even after I install my quad-tuner CableCARD tuner.


This is my plan at least to use my clearqam tuners still just for locals. I probably will look at an antenna once I actually buy my HDTV.

I will just assign the clearqam/OTA tuners the local channels and not assign the local channels to the cable card tuners. This way I can have 8 tuners in one machine going at once. Now the other question is whether or not I build a second HTPC with the same setup lol. Yeah all the recordings would be shared but still one can never have enough tuners.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

lessd said:


> I don't think many people purchase TiVos for the movie download capability, only for TV time shifting. After seeing the movie download capability some will use it, but would they purchase a TiVo just because of that capability ?


The movie download and streaming capability in TiVo is TiVo's answer to cable's VOD, which is why they now label it "Video On Demand" in TiVo Central. Would you sign up for digital cable just for access to VOD?

Only a couple of devices on the market (Apple TV, Vudu and Roku's box) are designed primarily or exclusively to support downloaded or streamed video; for everything else it's just an ancillary function. There are people who are willing to buy those products, though I doubt that the market is very large.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> Semantics, but it amounts to the (almost) same thing. You're transferring data from an online provider to your PC. The only difference being that it doesn't stay resident on your PC after you're done watching it. The whole point being that you'll probably pay for the digital content, regardless of how it's transmitted.


I'm sorry, but the point that you're trying to make escapes me. You pay to rent and purchase DVDs and Blu-ray discs and you pay for cable VOD. You pay for downloaded video rentals through Vudu and Apple TV. You're not going to get recent (just released to DVD and Blu-ray recent) movies, etc, streamed, downloaded or on disc without paying for it and I don't think that anything in my posts implies that you would get streaming content from Microsoft's Zune Video Store for free.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mikeyts said:


> I'm sorry, but the point that you're trying to make escapes me. You pay to rent and purchase DVDs and Blu-ray discs and you pay for cable VOD. You pay for downloaded video rentals through Vudu and Apple TV. You're not going to get recent (just released to DVD and Blu-ray recent) movies, etc, streamed, downloaded or on disc without paying for it and I don't think that anything in my posts implies that you would get streaming content from Microsoft's Zune Video Store for free.


True, but I can get my Blu-Ray discs from NetFlix for much less than what a pay-per-view download/streamed video would cost me. My current 2-at-a-time plan only costs me $18.01 per month after taxes and surcharges (Blu-Ray rentals cost extra). Considering I generally get about 16 movies per month, that works out to about $1.13 per rental. That's about the cheapest you'll find for a Blu-Ray rental (my local BB charges about $5-6 per night for BD rentals). I don't always get 100% of my rentals as Blu-Rays (some programs simply aren't released on Blu-Ray, especially if they're older movies or TV series) so about 20-25% of them may be standard DVDs. Still, that's not bad considering the competition.

FYI - I never use VOD or PPV from my provider so I am not paying for it. Tivos are not capable of supporting VOD from FIOS or other provider since CableCARDs do not allow them 2-way access to these services. I don't use either service with the STBs I have on other TVs, although other members of my household use VOD on occasion, but not PPV.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ...the average person out there is simply not of a mindset to hook their PC up to their TV for viewing. - That is the real roadblock. When TVs get to the tipping point that significnat % of homes can use DLNA to watch the show on the PC on the TV then you start to see some buy in. Even at that it means they plugged their TV into the network. Many people just do not think that way and it will take generational change to create a market looking to use tech in such a fashion...


Internet is wireless 'cable', no? That 'generational change' will include the end of broadcast and cable TV. Blu-ray too is a passing fancy.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

fallingwater said:


> Internet is wireless 'cable', no? That 'generational change' will include the end of broadcast and cable TV. Blu-ray too is a passing fancy.


The internet is anything _but_ wireless cable. You may be able to connect to a wireless server locally but there are literally hundreds of thousand of miles of hard cable that make up the infrastructure of the internet. At some point, streaming video from the internet in full HD with HD audio will become a reality, but the current bandwidth restrictions won't allow for anything but highly compressed media transfers. Wireless HD will probably take even longer to develop and implement. It's always lagged behind hard-line networks for speed and bandwidth.

Any media delivery system is only a stopgap measure until the next system comes along. That's simply stating the obvious.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> True, but I can get my Blu-Ray discs from NetFlix for much less than what a pay-per-view download/streamed video would cost me. My current 2-at-a-time plan only costs me $18.01 per month after taxes and surcharges (Blu-Ray rentals cost extra).


Ah, so the point that you're trying to make is that you know a way to pay less to rent Blu-ray discs if you watch films the way that you do (several rentals every month). Why didn't you say so, instead of "The whole point being that you'll probably pay for the digital content, regardless of how it's transmitted".


> FYI - I never use VOD or PPV from my provider so I am not paying for it. Tivos are not capable of supporting VOD from FIOS or other provider since CableCARDs do not allow them 2-way access to these services. I don't use either service with the STBs I have on other TVs, although other members of my household use VOD on occasion, but not PPV.


Instead of "you pay..." I should have said "you'd pay...", which is what I meant--sorry.

If you want to (legally ) watch a recent release film, you'll pay for it one way or another, whether on disc, cable or the Internet. You found a way that satisfies you for a price that you're happy to pay. Others prefer renting discs one or two at a time from their local brick-and-mortar Blockbuster. Digital downloads and streaming will work out better for some others.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> Internet is wireless 'cable', no? That 'generational change' will include the end of broadcast and cable TV. Blu-ray too is a passing fancy....





mr.unnatural said:


> The internet is anything _but_ wireless cable. You may be able to connect to a wireless server locally but there are literally hundreds of thousand of miles of hard cable that make up the infrastructure of the internet. At some point, streaming video from the internet in full HD with HD audio will become a reality, but the current bandwidth restrictions won't allow for anything but highly compressed media transfers. Wireless HD will probably take even longer to develop and implement. It's always lagged behind hard-line networks for speed and bandwidth.
> 
> Any media delivery system is only a stopgap measure until the next system comes along. That's simply stating the obvious.


Yes, my post 'simply (restated) the obvious' with an error: I omitted 'To the end user' from the beginning of the first sentence.

I'll argue though that 'at some point' doesn't conflict with 'generational change'.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> ...I can get my Blu-Ray discs from NetFlix for much less than what a pay-per-view download/streamed video would cost me...


The Netflix Blu-ray monthly premium over DVD for the same account terms is shown here. Click on 'Does Netflix carry Blu-ray movies?' at the bottom:
http://www.netflix.com/HowItWorks


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

VUDU HDX titles easily offer better quality than OTA.



mr.unnatural said:


> I give a damn about OTA HD because it offers better quality than any other consumer delivery system other than Blu-Ray. I use OTA reception for all of my HD locals, even though I can get them from FIOS (which is the primary reason I built my HTPC in the first place). All providers just retransmit the signal from the local stations, which tends to inject a slight amount of degradation from the original local feed. Ideally, I'd love to be able to receive the originating transmission directly from the networks, but that would involve the installation of a BUD (Big Ugly Dish) which would not go over well with the wife or my community association. Otherwise, a rooftop antenna and an ATSC tuner installed in my HTPC gives me a better picture than even FIOS can offer. I'll still use my ATSC tuners for OTA locals even after I install my quad-tuner CableCARD tuner.
> 
> Semantics, but it amounts to the (almost) same thing. You're transferring data from an online provider to your PC. The only difference being that it doesn't stay resident on your PC after you're done watching it. The whole point being that you'll probably pay for the digital content, regardless of how it's transmitted.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

fallingwater said:


> The Netflix Blu-ray monthly premium over DVD for the same account terms is shown here. Click on 'Does Netflix carry Blu-ray movies?' at the bottom:
> http://www.netflix.com/HowItWorks


I wasn't referring to NetFlix downloads. They're included in my monthly fee at no extra cost. I just don't use them because the movies on DVD and Blu-Ray are of superior quality, which is what I'm more interested in.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> VUDU HDX titles easily offer better quality than OTA.


Yes, but still not quite as good as Blu-Ray, although it's pretty close, at least according to the various reviews I've read. You're also limited to just Dolby Digital audio and not Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD (I'm all about the HD audio). The download speed is limited to 4 mbps so you'll have to wait at least three to four hours for the movie to download before you can watch it. The box costs you $300 (standalone Blu-Ray players now sell for much less) and you still have to pay for whatever you download (however, they don't charge a premium for the HDX downloads). They're also currently limited to a vast library of 50 HDX films! I think I'll still stick with NetFlix for my HD movie source, thank you.

FWIW, my point about OTA being the best consumer delivery system was in direct comparison with other service providers such as digital cable, FIOS, DirecTV, and Dish. OTA is still the best in this regard.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Yes, but still not quite as good as Blu-Ray, although it's pretty close, at least according to the various reviews I've read. You're also limited to just Dolby Digital audio and not Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD (I'm all about the HD audio). The download speed is limited to 4 mbps so you'll have to wait at least three to four hours for the movie to download before you can watch it. The box costs you $300 (standalone Blu-Ray players now sell for much less) and you still have to pay for whatever you download (however, they don't charge a premium for the HDX downloads). They're also currently limited to a vast library of 50 HDX films! I think I'll still stick with NetFlix for my HD movie source, thank you.
> 
> FWIW, my point about OTA being the best consumer delivery system was in direct comparison with other service providers such as digital cable, FIOS, DirecTV, and Dish. OTA is still the best in this regard.


The FIOS retransmission of the OTA channels is identical in my area. The files are the same size.
VUDU HDX titles of course are not as good as a BD title, but it is the second best format available for viewing HD, and they currently have the largest selection of HD titles available(when compared to either from disc or by digital means.)


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Agreed with Comcast in the ATL, which is why I don't care about OTA. HD locals delivered via cable look exactly the same as OTA to me, and I don't have to fool with antennas, rotors, occasional signal level problems etc. But some folks are more picky than others, and if there's even the slightest difference, you know how it goes. 

So the new HTPC Cablecard tuner solutions might get me to sell my lifetimed Tivo HD on fleabay sometime next year. I love the Tivo but not some of the decisions that they made for me, and the HTPC solution puts a lot of flexibility (and cost savings) back in my hands.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> ...I can get my Blu-Ray discs from NetFlix for much less than what a pay-per-view download/streamed video would cost me. My current 2-at-a-time plan only costs me $18.01 per month after taxes and surcharges (Blu-Ray rentals cost extra). Considering I generally get about 16 movies per month, that works out to about $1.13 per rental. That's about the cheapest you'll find for a Blu-Ray rental (my local BB charges about $5-6 per night for BD rentals). I don't always get 100% of my rentals as Blu-Rays (some programs simply aren't released on Blu-Ray, especially if they're older movies or TV series) so about 20-25% of them may be standard DVDs. Still, that's not bad considering the competition...





fallingwater said:


> The Netflix Blu-ray monthly premium over DVD for the same account terms is shown here. Click on 'Does Netflix carry Blu-ray movies?' at the bottom:
> http://www.netflix.com/HowItWorks





mr.unnatural said:


> I wasn't referring to NetFlix downloads. They're included in my monthly fee at no extra cost. I just don't use them because the movies on DVD and Blu-Ray are of superior quality, which is what I'm more interested in.


I wasn't either. As the link shows, adding Blu-ray access to your plan raised your monthly cost a whopping $3! FYI, I use that exact same plan!

BTW, I picked up a brand new Magnavox/Funai Blu-ray player for under 100 bucks a few weeks ago. They're gone at that roll-back price (now $148), but they or something similiar will undoubtedly 'be baaahck'! There are much better BD players of course, but the one from _Maggie's Farm_ works. 
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13845_3-10285229-58.html

At this time I'm not 'serious' about hi-def, but IMHO when Blu-ray players routinely cost under $100 and discs under $10, the format will overtake DVDs. The local Fye's is having an under $20 BD instore sale now and a few BD's worth watching are $10.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> FWIW, my point about OTA being the best consumer delivery system was in direct comparison with other service providers such as digital cable, FIOS, DirecTV, and Dish. OTA is still the best in this regard.


The two cable systems in my area, TWC and Cox, don't modify OTA retransmissions either. I've recorded the same program OTA and digital cable simultaneously with my TiVo and the recording file sizes were the same and the quality indistinguishable.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mikeyts said:


> The two cable systems in my area, TWC and Cox, don't modify OTA retransmissions either. I've recorded the same program OTA and digital cable simultaneously with my TiVo and the recording file sizes were the same and the quality indistinguishable.


I can't say definitively but it's my understanding that FIOS does not compress the original signal whereas all digital cable systems do compress it to some extent due to bandwidth limitations with their infrastructure vs. FIOS. It's possible that the amount of compression does not impart noticeable degradation on the signal, but that may also depend on what size monitor you're viewing it on. Degradation may not be perceptible on a 42" or smaller screen but it would probably be noticed on something larger, like my 60" Sony.



fallingwater said:


> At this time I'm not 'serious' about hi-def, but IMHO when Blu-ray players routinely cost under $100 and discs under $10, the format will overtake DVDs. The local Fye's is having an under $20 BD instore sale now and a few BD's worth watching are $10.


I got that from your posts scattered throughout these forums. It's pretty much a given that Blu-Ray will definitely replace DVDs when the price drops to a competitive level. However, there will probably be some other new format for entertainment media introduced by that time that will supplant Blu-Ray.



aaronwt said:


> The FIOS retransmission of the OTA channels is identical in my area. The files are the same size.
> VUDU HDX titles of course are not as good as a BD title, but it is the second best format available for viewing HD, and they currently have the largest selection of HD titles available(when compared to either from disc or by digital means.)


You'll have to show me where they have the largest library available. The link I found said they are currently limited to 50 HDX titles. $300 for a box that has a single purpose is a pretty steep premium, IMHO. FWIW, I can see a slight difference between OTA locals and the FIOS transmissions. It's probably not detectable on a smaller screen than mine. The one thing that is immediately noticeable is the difference in the audio on several stations. The FIOS transmission sounds somewhat muted vs. the OTA signal. This could be something that's more of a local thing than across the board with all FIOS networks.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I can't say definitively but it's my understanding that FIOS does not compress the original signal whereas all digital cable systems do compress it to some extent due to bandwidth limitations with their infrastructure vs. FIOS. It's possible that the amount of compression does not impart noticeable degradation on the signal, but that may also depend on what size monitor you're viewing it on. Degradation may not be perceptible on a 42" or smaller screen but it would probably be noticed on something larger, like my 60" Sony.


Your understanding is wrong. My strong evidence is that neither local cable system is doing any compression of local signals (any compression less than 15-20% or so is a total waste of effort, and that I'd surely notice). I don't have the software to do a bit-by-bit comparison of video packets, but others who do have it (typically video engineers) have verified that their local cable systems aren't compressing local signals. On the other hand, Comcast started employing heavy compression a couple of years back, resulting in actual law suits from their subscribers.

How various cable providers deal with increasing bandwidth demands varies from system to system. Cox, my current provider, temporarily relieved their bandwidth crunch by updating their physical infrastructure to increase bandwidth from 750MHz to 1GHz nationwide. Many of the others have employed Switched Digital Video, particularly Time Warner, which has introduced SDV in many, many markets. Switched Digital Video is a system in which some channels are not placed on network end segments--typically 500 or fewer cable-passed homes--unless someone is watching. When tuning a channel, a terminal (STB or television tuner) on an SDV system has to ask the network for tuning parameters (QAM frequency and program numbers); if the channel's not currently on the terminal's end-segment, the network has to allocate bandwidth for it from a pool of bandwidth on that segment reserved for switched channels and set things up so that the channel will be obtained from the main fiber network and multiplexed into that bandwidth on the end segment. Consequently, Unidrectional Digital Cable Products (UDCPs) which don't have a backchannel to the network over which to send channel requests cannot tune switched services. TiVo is such a device, and the industry introduced a Tuning Adapter for use with TiVo to give it access to SDV channels. (Take a look at the TCF SDV FAQ for more details).

Again, some cable systems have resorted to the use of compression, even of rebroadcast OTA signals, but not all do and I'm fairly certain that mine does not. Once SDV becomes the norm, which it almost certainly will, there will be no real motive to use compression.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> You'll have to show me where they have the largest library available. The link I found said they are currently limited to 50 HDX titles.


The link that you found mislead you. The list of HDX titles at Vudu's site is 34 pages of 24 titles, making the list between 793-816 titles long (I didn't feel like paging through to the last page to see how many titles were on it). They have between 2209 and 2232 titles combined standard HD and HDX encodings. I can't say whether this is the largest online collection of HD movies or not, but it seems probable .


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> ...'generational change' will include the end of broadcast and cable TV. Blu-ray too is a passing fancy.





mr.unnatural said:


> ...At some point, streaming video from the internet in full HD with HD audio will become a reality, but the current bandwidth restrictions won't allow for anything but highly compressed media transfers. Wireless HD will probably take even longer to develop and implement. It's always lagged behind hard-line networks for speed and bandwidth.
> 
> Any media delivery system is only a stopgap measure until the next system comes along...





me said:


> ...I'll argue...that 'at some point' doesn't conflict with 'generational change'.





you said:


> ...It's pretty much a given that Blu-Ray will definitely replace DVDs when the price drops to a competitive level. However, there will probably be some other new format for entertainment media introduced by that time that will supplant Blu-Ray.


We've come full circle, obviously. But we've been going around in circles since the beginning. Other than at times re-stating the obvious, of which I'm guilty as charged, what have I posted that you fundamentally disagree with?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't recall stating that I did disagree with you. I just wanted to make sure our discussion was on the same page, which it apparently is.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> I just wanted to make sure our discussion was on the same page, which it apparently is.


Only if you both have your forum views set the same.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I can't say definitively but it's my understanding that FIOS does not compress the original signal whereas all digital cable systems do compress it to some extent due to bandwidth limitations with their infrastructure vs. FIOS. It's possible that the amount of compression does not impart noticeable degradation on the signal, but that may also depend on what size monitor you're viewing it on. Degradation may not be perceptible on a 42" or smaller screen but it would probably be noticed on something larger, like my 60" Sony.
> 
> I got that from your posts scattered throughout these forums. It's pretty much a given that Blu-Ray will definitely replace DVDs when the price drops to a competitive level. However, there will probably be some other new format for entertainment media introduced by that time that will supplant Blu-Ray.
> 
> You'll have to show me where they have the largest library available. The link I found said they are currently limited to 50 HDX titles. $300 for a box that has a single purpose is a pretty steep premium, IMHO. FWIW, I can see a slight difference between OTA locals and the FIOS transmissions. It's probably not detectable on a smaller screen than mine. The one thing that is immediately noticeable is the difference in the audio on several stations. The FIOS transmission sounds somewhat muted vs. the OTA signal. This could be something that's more of a local thing than across the board with all FIOS networks.


It must be something local. I can record a show from both FIOS and from OTA. The file size will be identical and they will look and sound the same.
Unless something has changed recently. I'll have to check it out with Fringe and The Office. I recorded those inHD from WRC on FIOS and OTA, and also from another NBC station that FIOS has. Although the second station should be better since they don't have multiple sub channels like the NBC station in DC does.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

The thought of a 4 tuner HTPC with a Drobo Pro attached for storage makes me positively giddy










Another poster brought up the topic of Tivo porting their software and UI to the PC - while I like the idea, since they rely on a subscription for guide data as a revenue source and Microsoft doesn't, I don't know how they can compete.

I always knew Tivo's days were numbered - eventually everything will just be delivered digitally without a distinction between "cable" and "phone" and "Internet". It looks like this could be the step that finally accelerates the path to digital convergence. Well, for the US anyway. I know many in Europe and Japan (who have full Internet TV now) watch our shenanigans and just shake their heads. Even if you have no intention of building an HTPC, this is a huge change that shows the first real crack in the cable monopolies.

And as for the whole Mac/PC thing - seriously guys? I'm no fan of Microsoft and have *owned* Macintoshes continuously since 1986, but I have an xBox 360 (and an original xbox running linux  ) and have owned windows PC's (mainly in Apples horrid late 90's). I have no problem buying the right tool for the right job. If MS get's it's act together with Windows 7 and cable card like they appear to be doing, I will have no problem setting up a Windows 7 HTPC. If Apple does the same, I will happily go to them instead, but I'm not going to spite myself and turn my nose up at a Win 7 HTPC when it (for me) appears to be the best option.

I love my Tivo's - have had a series one since 2000 - but the restrictions on expansion, glacial transfer speeds and the dog-slow UI have literally sucked the fun out of Tivo for me. Wishlists are cool, and I'll probably keep my Series 3 running even if I build an HTPC so I won't loose that - but they are not enough to keep me from building an HTPC and moving away from Tivo. And if I read one review of the new media center correctly, it supports plugins. Who's to say some enterprising soul won't write a wishlist like plugin or add-on?


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

nrc said:


> You can call it what you want. 25 years of personal and professional experience has proven to me that Windows is neither reliable or maintainable. The market share trend reflects that users recognize this and are tired of it. What is evident in the trends right now is only the tip of the iceberg.


Microsoft doesn't have to "loose" for Apple to "win". Can we give it a rest?


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> umm - a *competitive* threat involves large numbers by default. Therefor you actually agree with what I am saying just as I agree with your thoughts. Now that anyone who wants to do HTPC has little worry about that last barrier to cable company HD they can jump in wholeheartedly and will.
> 
> However to say that HTPC use will gain real numbers with this news is just as off the mark as saying that Tivo would get a significant boost in subs if the news was "no agreement on cable cards for Windows PCs".


I don't buy the whole "HTPCs are too complicated an no one wants them" argument.

Five years ago if you said Windows Server 2003 would be in many people's homes, you would have gotten laughed at. Now look at Windows Home Server - it's a specially packaged version of Windows Server bundled with hardware from OEMs that targets a specific niche - and it's been very successful. Same thing with Small Business Server - it's a great product that automates many of the administration and configuration chores and is very successful in it's target segment (I maintain several for non-profits I volunteer for).

What's to keep OEM's from creating targeted machines that are just as plug and play as Tivo? Nothing. There is nothing special about what Tivo has done - now. When they first started, they were groundbreaking in that they had a novel solution for recording video that didn't cost a fortune, along with some nice software enhancements as well. It's still somewhat relevant, but they are loosing their edge due to normal competition.

I hope they have something significant for the next generation Tivo, or they are simply going to be further marginalized. While I think it's unfortunate as I really do like my Tivo's, it's not unexpected - no product lasts forever. To be honest, I'm surprised it's taken this long. I think that's more a testament to the ability of the cable monopolies to prevent real progress then to anything Tivo was able to accomplish. If anything, this signals a true shift - not to different kinds of DVRs, but away from the need for DVRs to distribution neutral content delivery. No more "cable" or "phone" - just content. I for one welcome it.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

DocNo said:


> Another poster brought up the topic of Tivo porting their software and UI to the PC...


Is that Nero's LiquidTV software?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DocNo said:


> I don't buy the whole "HTPCs are too complicated an no one wants them" argument.


 and yet people are also NOT buying HTPCs. You can argue as to the why people are not buying them, but the simple fact you need to address is that people are not buying them.


> Five years ago if you said Windows Server 2003 would be in many people's homes, you would have gotten laughed at. Now look at Windows Home Server - it's a specially packaged version of Windows Server bundled with hardware from OEMs that targets a specific niche - and it's been very successful. Same thing with Small Business Server - it's a great product that automates many of the administration and configuration chores and is very successful in it's target segment (I maintain several for non-profits I volunteer for).


 niche and the larger commercially sucessful are 2 different things. No where have I said HTPC would not do fine as a niche product. What I have said is that depsite the opinions posted by some that cbale card enabled PCs will really open up the HTPC market - I argued that HTPC will still remian Niche. The niche will simply be much happier with the product.


> What's to keep OEM's from creating targeted machines that are just as plug and play as Tivo? Nothing.


 the price people are willing to pay and the work people will have to do on the product after they buy it. A good product will be one that is setup and then use with*out* hassle over drivers and codecs and such. Someone may well make one for many of us in this forum it may well be compelling, but then we are also known to throw down upto 700$ for a TiVo HD as is. We are the niche. It is people not on this forum that would have to get excited about an HTPC to wnat to spend money on it to make it more than niche. PS -niche is not bad or good - it is just niche.



> There is nothing special about what Tivo has done - now.


 at what post did I state there was clear choice for those of us who are into DVRs. There are pros and cons for each person and that will dictate their choice not some one special thing that makes it the clear choice every time.



> If anything, this signals a true shift - not to different kinds of DVRs, but away from the need for DVRs to distribution neutral content delivery. No more "cable" or "phone" - just content. I for one welcome it.


how does the introduction of cable cards to aftermarket PCs signal this shift?? Would you please pick a topic per post.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

I love the idea of these cards, but they need to get more platform support. While I'm not Microsoft's biggest fan, I'd consider it if I could use even XP. Win7 is very overpriced and I simply can't bring myself to pay that much for it, nor will I steal it, so I won't be running it. I also don't want to deal with any DRM garbage, so that likely means I can't use this card as they probably need DRM to satisfy the cable cos. Too bad, it would be awesome in a MythTV box, enough that I might actually consider subscribing to cable again to use it. Between OTA, Internet, and Netflix, I can get everything I want for significantly less money than the monthly cable fees. I'd pay for the convenience of being able to record everything with something like this, but I won't deal with DRM and being forced to run Win7 for it. 

Now, release an open source driver or specs for the driver interface for the card, and I'd buy one even if I had to write the driver for it.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

Jeeters said:


> Is that Nero's LiquidTV software?


Aha - I thought there was something like that out there but I couldn't remember the name and some poking around in google didn't turn it up. Thanks. I'll have to look at this closer now and see if it will work with the same tuners that WM7 will.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and yet people are also NOT buying HTPCs. You can argue as to the why people are not buying them, but the simple fact you need to address is that people are not buying them.


Many weren't buying them before now for the simple reason I wasn't - too many restrictions to make it worth it. Those are now falling away. Also Windows Media Center itself is a much better product with Windows 7.

Technology marches on. Today is not yesterday...



> What I have said is that depsite the opinions posted by some that cbale card enabled PCs will really open up the HTPC market - I argued that HTPC will still remian Niche. The niche will simply be much happier with the product.


And you may be right. Most people (myself included) don't really want a DVR - we want the choice to watch what we want, when we want, without ads.

Having said that - what if HP takes a Windows Home Server, and ads Media Center functionality to it? That could be a converged device that people would sit up and take notice of.

I know I would - and my household is predominantly Mac. I've been hoping Apple would fill the void for some time now 



> the price people are willing to pay and the work people will have to do on the product after they buy it. A good product will be one that is setup and then use with*out* hassle over drivers and codecs and such.


Ok I agree - but are you saying it's impossible for a manufacturer to deliver an HTPC that is as much of an appliance as a Tivo? I certainly think it's possible, and with what I have seen of Windows 7 Media Center very easy to do.



> how does the introduction of cable cards to aftermarket PCs signal this shift?? Would you please pick a topic per post.


It's not the introduction of cable cards in and of itself (and there are already some OEM WMC boxes that support cable card) - it's the relaxing of the hard-line DRM and onerous restrictions. The doors are much more open. This is a fundamental shift in policy. I see it much like when the record labels first signed up with iTunes for digital distribution. I don't know if we will ever get to DRM free video as eventually happened in the music world, but now there is at lease a motivation for people to innovate in the cable card on a PC space. The flexibility is now there where you can do something useful that won't piss your customers off because of obnoxious restrictions from cable labs.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

kb7sei said:


> Now, release an open source driver or specs for the driver interface for the card, and I'd buy one even if I had to write the driver for it.


Not gonna happen - at least for a while. You aren't going to see "premium" HD without DRM until the content producers either wake up or are forced.

Apple, with the dominance of the iTunes music store, forced the record companies hand with DRM on music. Apple used the market share of the iTunes store to get them to agree to allow Apple to sell music without DRM in exchange for variable pricing. I see no such "white knight" for DRM with video


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

DocNo said:


> Aha - I thought there was something like that out there but I couldn't remember the name and some poking around in google didn't turn it up. Thanks. I'll have to look at this closer now and see if it will work with the same tuners that WM7 will.


Just FYI, I mentioned Liquid TV back here and morac pointed out that the use of Liquid TV requires the purchase of a TiVo service subscription, in this post, making it less than attractive to most people building an HTPC.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

DocNo said:


> Having said that - what if HP takes a Windows Home Server, and ads Media Center functionality to it? That could be a converged device that people would sit up and take notice of.


Unfortunately I don't think we will see this until WHS2 or whatever they call it since WHS2 will be based off Server 2008/Vista. From my understanding WHS doesn't have the coding to support the tuners since it is off Server 2003 and it would be extremely difficult to add since some of the code would have to be completely re-written. I believe the next version of WHS is due out though in 2010 so it may not be that far off, but still no word on whether it will support tuners.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and yet people are also NOT buying HTPCs. You can argue as to the why people are not buying them, but the simple fact you need to address is that people are not buying them. niche and the larger commercially sucessful are 2 different things. No where have I said HTPC would not do fine as a niche product. What I have said is that depsite the opinions posted by some that cbale card enabled PCs will really open up the HTPC market - I argued that HTPC will still remian Niche. The niche will simply be much happier with the product.


That couldn't any further from the truth. Every PC that's been sold with either Vista Home Premium or Ultimate is a Media Center PC (aka HTPC). They may not necessarily come equipped with TV tuners, but the software is embedded into the OS to support them. Many manufacturers, such as Dell and HP, provide tuners as an add-on option that can be purchased along with the PC. The point is, HTPCs are now entering the mainstream in huge numbers. Most people just don't realize they have the capability.

I recently purchased a refurbished HP desktop for my wife and it came with Vista Home Premium. There's an icon for Media Center right on the desktop. If I wanted, I could install one of my extra tuners and have an instant DVR. I just don't feel like running another antenna line to her PC to make it happen.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mikeyts said:


> Just FYI, I mentioned Liquid TV back here and morac pointed out that the use of Liquid TV requires the purchase of a TiVo service subscription, in this post, making it less than attractive to most people building an HTPC.


You'd have to be a complete moron to purchase LiquidTV when there are lots of apps out there that provide basically the same level of service for free. Any PC can access YouTube or download NetFlix movies for viewing, assuming you have installed the free software and have a NetFlix account (which you also need to view them on a Tivo). The only feature my Tivo has that my HTPC was lacking is the ability to record encrypted cable channels from FIOS. The CableCARD tuner bridges that gap and will enable my HTPC to do everything my Tivo does and more.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

You don't have to be a complete moron to buy Liquid TV. AFAIK wishlists and suggestions are features that work better with tivo then with tivo alternatives. 

Some customers don't care about paying extra. They want the same interface on their DVR and on their PC.

Is a PC customer who pays for Windows, if Linux fits his needs, a moron? Is a customer who pays for Microsoft Office, if open office has all the functionality he needs, a moron?

I agree with the previous posters, HTPC is a niche product BUT it's more likely to take customers form tivo then from customers who use cable DVRs. 

I may be missing something but I think a HTPC uses more power then a tivo.

15 years ago the big thing was voice modems. Everyone was going to use their PC for voicemail. Never took off.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> Unfortunately I don't think we will see this until WHS2 or whatever they call it since WHS2 will be based off Server 2008/Vista. From my understanding WHS doesn't have the coding to support the tuners since it is off Server 2003 and it would be extremely difficult to add since some of the code would have to be completely re-written.


You are correct - and I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to do that (and I don't).



> I believe the next version of WHS is due out though in 2010 so it may not be that far off, but still no word on whether it will support tuners.


It would easy enough for them to add if the next version of WHS is based off of Server 2008/2010 since Server 2008/2010 and Vista/Windows 7 are almost identical underneath. It would be an interesting product, that's for sure!

Media extenders don't have to be expensive - you can get the arcade version of the xbox 360 for $100-$150 on sale and you have something that will do far more then just pump media. The Roku box for Netflix is $99. $100 seems very reasonable for a media extender and I'm sure as soon as Windows 7 ships, the Linksys and other extenders will be back with new versions.

Stick the Tuner-stuffed Windows Home Server in my basement where I don't have to listen to it and it gets naturally cooled  and just have extenders throughout the house... great concept!

EDIT: Should have finished reading the engadget WMC review - would have saw this: http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/05/22/is-the-future-of-windows-media-center-with-windows-home-server/


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

lew said:


> You don't have to be a complete moron to buy Liquid TV. AFAIK wishlists and suggestions are features that work better with tivo then with tivo alternatives.


I would agree but Liquid TV is a pretty poor implementation of a Tivo product.  I really wanted to like it to but the demo alone was a turn off for me.



lew said:


> I may be missing something but I think a HTPC uses more power then a tivo.


It might when it is active, but then again it depends on what you build it with and what your plans are for it. I know many builds use one of the green 400w power supplies since the Antec case includes it. The other reason it probably balances out is the HTPC can go into suspend or hibernation mode and wake only to download guide data, optimize files, and record shows. My HTPC only runs 8-11 when it is recording or when I go to watch a recorded show and shuts down after 10 minutes of no activity.

At the same time if companies like HP eventually offer one they could go with lower wattage power supplies depending on the design similar to their WHS boxes.



lew said:


> 15 years ago the big thing was voice modems. Everyone was going to use their PC for voicemail. Never took off.


I don't remember that at all. I remember modems eventually offered voice but don't remember even reading about using PCs for voicemail or I would have tried it. I am not saying you are wrong, but it is just odd that I don't have any recollection of anyone making a big deal about it.

I think one big change though is people these days are used to using their computer to do more and more and how easily it is accepted.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> and yet people are also NOT buying HTPCs. You can argue as to the why people are not buying them, but the simple fact you need to address is that people are not buying them.


You also need to address the fact that people buy millions of HTPCSc a year and Tivo only sells about 150K units a year. This is why I don't think HTPC puts TiVo in danger, TiVo sales could not be any lower than what they already are.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

samo said:


> You also need to address the fact that people buy millions of HTPCSc a year and Tivo only sells about 150K units a year. This is why I don't think HTPC puts TiVo in danger, TiVo sales could not be any lower than what they already are.


But actually they could because it is users such as myself, my friends and my family who are looking at other options and features Tivo doesn't offer at this time.

I had 1 series 1, 2 series 2, 5 active Directivos, and now 3 Tivo HDs and could have used a fourth. The fourth one became the HTPC and this was even before the OEM announcement.

If the cable card tuners work as well as expected, I could very well see myself building two HTPCs for my next DVRs instead of upgrading to the next Tivo model. I already plan to build one cable card PC when the 4 tuner card comes out. Of course we don't know what the next Tivo will bring. At this point it would need at least 4 tuners or some type of option to pool tuners, to get me excited along with much quicker transfers, and I hope they do it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

People maybe technically buy millions of PCs a year which have the ability to be used as an HTPC, but I'm betting the number of users who actually use their PCs to record television shows is relatively low. The numbers might still be higher then TiVo, given that Windows MCE can be used worldwide and TiVo is limited to a few specific markets, but I don't think the margin is as large as you make it out to be.

That being said the winds of change are definitely coming, and TiVo needs to step up it's game very quickly if it doesn't want to get left behind.

Dan


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> You also need to address the fact that people buy millions of HTPCs a year


I keep catching you in these half truths samo - your agenda is showing again. As Dan points out and you well know - few of those are used to actually record TV as a DVR.

The DVR market is slim and it is hard for anyone to build a business around DVR making. HTPCs are hardly the cause of TiVo low subscriber base.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I keep catching you in these half truths samo - your agenda is showing again. As Dan points out and you well know - few of those are used to actually record TV as a DVR.
> 
> The DVR market is slim and it is hard for anyone to build a business around DVR making. HTPCs are hardly the cause of TiVo low subscriber base.


That actually angers me. What you mean by half truth? Dan bets that few HTPCs are used as DVRs and that is your proof that what I say is half truth?
Neither you or Dan or myself can possibly know how many HTPCs are used as DVRs. But the facts are that millions of HTPCs are sold as well as millions of TV tuners for PCs. I never said that HTPCs are cause of TiVo low sub base - you put words in my mouth and then call me a lier. Shame on you.
I have always said that cause of low TiVo subs is incompetent marketing, pricing structure, and competition from cable and satellite providers that keep improving their DVRs in this order. What I said in my post is that HTPCs are not going to reduce TiVo sale because they are already at the level of natural attrition replacement.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

innocentfreak said:


> But actually they could because it is users such as myself, my friends and my family who are looking at other options and features Tivo doesn't offer at this time.
> 
> I had 1 series 1, 2 series 2, 5 active Directivos, and now 3 Tivo HDs and could have used a fourth. The fourth one became the HTPC and this was even before the OEM announcement.
> 
> If the cable card tuners work as well as expected, I could very well see myself building two HTPCs for my next DVRs instead of upgrading to the next Tivo model. I already plan to build one cable card PC when the 4 tuner card comes out. Of course we don't know what the next Tivo will bring. At this point it would need at least 4 tuners or some type of option to pool tuners, to get me excited along with much quicker transfers, and I hope they do it.


There is no doubt that some people like you will switch from TiVo for HTPCs if it becomes better alternative. But it will not materially reduce TiVo sales beyond of what they are now. TiVo sales at this point are at natural attrition replacement level and can not go substantially lower. The number of canceled subs may increase, but it also doesn't matter because as of now twice as many people cancel Tivo as they buy a new one. IMHO that is due to the factors mentioned in a previous post and these factors are not going to change in observable future.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I agree with your reason for why their market share is so low, but I have to disagree with the order. I think competition from cable companies is strong then you let on. For example I called my cable company a couple weeks ago to see about increasing my internet bandwidth. They told me that if I simply increased the speed to the next tier it would be an extra $10/mo, however if I took one of their bundles that included the higher speed, a DVR and phone service it would actually be cheaper then what I pay now.

I didn't take the bundle because I don't have anywhere to hook up their DVR and they told me that it has to "call in" every few days or they assume it's broken and will start calling you about it.

However if a "normal" customer had the option of either paying $300 for a TiVo, plus $13/mo or getting one essentially for free from their cable provider why would they choose a TiVo? If I didn't already have experience with both TiVo and the cable DVR and didn't know the pros/cons of each I probably would have taken them up on it and simply replaced one of my TiVos with the cable DVR. In fact I'm still considering it and I'm about as hardcore as it gets. (I got them to give me the internet upgrade for free for 6 months, so I have that long to decide)

Dan


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Dan203 said:


> I agree with your reason for why their market share is so low


Your reasoning for the order is also very valid, but here is my take.
1. Incompetent marketing
For years Tivo had supperior product, wasted $100s of millions for stupid advertising campains and never got any sales to show for it.
2. Pricing
Right after in infinite wisdom TiVo decided to raise prices for the product that doesn't sell and make people to commit for at least a year, TiVo sales took the dive and have been negligible ever since.
3. Competition from cable and satellite DVRs.
Only recently cable DVRs got any good and satellite DVRs got better than TiVo. For a very long time TiVo was superior to anything on a market and has not capitalized on that.
I would have to agree, that if you look at the market today competition is overwhelmingly the biggest TiVo problem. But if you look at the history, then my order makes sense to me.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

I've been playing with Windows Media Center in Windows 7 RC using my desktop for the last month. My new HTPC is on the truck on its way to me right now according to UPS tracking....


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> I've been playing with Windows Media Center in Windows 7 RC using my desktop for the last month. My new HTPC is on the truck on its way to me right now according to UPS tracking....


Just curious: what are the specs, and how much did it cost?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> You also need to address the fact that people buy millions of HTPCSc a year





ZeoTiVo said:


> I keep catching you in these half truths samo - your agenda is showing again. As Dan points out and you well know - few of those are used to actually record TV as a DVR.





samo said:


> That actually angers me. What you mean by half truth?


You seriously think that millions of PCs are bought and used as DVRs/HTPC each year?



ZeoTiVo said:


> The DVR market is slim and it is hard for anyone to build a business around DVR making. HTPCs are hardly the cause of TiVo low subscriber base.


I added this in to indicate that I do not think it really mattered if TiVo had the best marketing campaign in history or not. The simple truth is that not that many people want to *own* a DVR and not that many more even want to rent a DVR from the cable company. The market for DVRs is slim and always has been. The new CEO recognized that fact and cut out shoving rebate expenses into the marketing expense column and stopped chasing market share in favor of focusing on tight business plan and things profitable. Digeo just plain sold out in recognition of the fact there was no market for 800$ new DVR on the block for them to tap into.
in short there simply is little market even for HTPCs to grab hold of. There are niches available and profits to be had. I expect we will see some nice HTPC setups and see TiVo continue to evolve as a company and a product - but we all know full well there is just not a big market for owning a DVR or HTPC.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> in short there simply is little market even for HTPCs to grab hold of. There are niches available and profits to be had


I couldn't agree more. I think the market for HTPC's and DVR's are both very small.

However, if you start bundling DVR functionality into products like Windows Home Server - that's potential for some powerful stuff. I think the whole home server market is just starting to take off. As people collect digital assets and multiple computers, they need a place to store all the stuff and coordinate between their computers - that handles the "sticker shock" issue - a DVR addition to WHS is the killer trojan horse. Kudos to Microsoft for getting to the home server market first, and actually doing a nice job. Now we just need Apple to come in, refine the category and take it to the next level


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

There is no ''market'' for HTPCs or DVRs per se, because cable and sat companies provide DVRs as part of their service.
If the cable and sat companies didn't do that, I'd bet the ''market'' for DVRs and HTPCs would be thriving.
So it's the cable/sat companies that are killing Tivo.

My opinion, of course.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> Just curious: what are the specs, and how much did it cost?


The cost was less than a TiVoHD with lifetime. Specs are:

AMD Phenom II X2 550 Black Edition Callisto 3.1GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 80W Dual-Core Processor

4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066

GIGABYTE GA-MA785GPMT-UD2H AM3 AMD 785G *HDMI* Micro ATX AMD Motherboard

LG Black 8X BD-ROM 16X DVD-ROM 40X CD-ROM SATA Internal Combo LG *Blu-ray Reader* & 16X LightScribe DVD±R DVD Burner

500GB Hard Drive

Windows 7 Home Premium

HDPC Case w/470w PS

BTC 9019URF 87-Key Wireless Multimedia Keyboard w/Built-in Dual-Mode Joystick Mouse (Black)

Windows Vista Certified Media Center MCE Remote Control and Infrared Receiver for Windows Vista Home Premium and Windows Vista Ultimate

I'll be using a SiliconDust HDHomeRun Network-based Dual Digital HDTV Tuner Ethernet Interface with it -- additional $150 but provides 2 tuners accessible from all PCs in my home (4 including the new one). Will probably add cablecard tuners to the HTPC box in the near future.

Not a shabby setup and not really expensive either. And it has plenty of horsepower for DVD ripping & my game playing grandkids to boot -- not to mention all of the internet video that will now be available.

Used XBOX 360s are available for ~$150 (new ones are $250 retail now) that will work fine for media center extenders for the bedrooms.

(Oh, and for anyone who still doesn't think that health care costs are out of control - the price for everything above including the tuner was less than 2/3 of our out of pocket cost for *this month's* Rx for my wife who is now in the Medicare coverage gap....)


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lew said:


> You don't have to be a complete moron to buy Liquid TV. AFAIK wishlists and suggestions are features that work better with tivo then with tivo alternatives.
> 
> Some customers don't care about paying extra. They want the same interface on their DVR and on their PC.
> 
> ...


LiquidTV provides virtually the same functions as PVR software that's available for free and costs you nothing to use. In my mind, buying software just because it looks like a Tivo and requires monthly fees is not a sound decision. Of course, that's just my opinion. If you can't live without the Tivo UI on your PC and like paying monthly fees, knock yourself out. Personally, I prefer BeyondTV's UI over Tivo's.

The argument about Windows vs. Linux and MS Office vs. open office isn't relevant to this discussion and opens up another big can of worms best left to other forums.

An HTPC most definitely uses more power than a Tivo, but it's also a more powerful machine that provides far more functionality than a Tivo. Tivo uses a minimal CPU and has just about enough memory to keep it up and running. I'd say the tradeoff is more than worth it. Try transferring a show to your PC using TivoToGo while recording one show and playing back another. You can time the reaction to your remote control using a sundial while waiting for the Tivo to respond to a command. My current HTPC can record six shows simultaneously while playing back a 7th prerecorded show and never skips a beat (did I mention that I can control my HTPC using my Harmony 880 remote?). I can also play back Blu-Ray disks with Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD audio while recording shows in the background.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> The cost was less than a TiVoHD with lifetime. Specs are:
> 
> I'll be using a SiliconDust HDHomeRun Network-based Dual Digital HDTV Tuner Ethernet Interface with it -- additional $150 but provides 2 tuners accessible from all PCs in my home (4 including the new one). Will probably add cablecard tuners to the HTPC box in the near future.
> 
> Not a shabby setup and not really expensive either.


but what was the actual full cost and what do you think you will spend on the cable card tuners (that actually make the thing similar to a dual tuner HD DVR)


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> but what was the actual full cost and what do you think you will spend on the cable card tuners (that actually make the thing similar to a dual tuner HD DVR)


When I price it out it comes $650 before it can even tune anything. Add $100 for a dual tuner and you're at $750 and you can't record digital cable. The Ceton card discussed here will cost between $300 and $600, so we're talking about $1000 for this setup when it becomes available.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

nrc said:


> The Ceton card discussed here will cost between $300 and $600


Right now that's the cost.

What if HP starts bundling a cable card tuner in with their WHS? I guarantee they will get the price down to well below that through volume. That's when things will get interesting.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

nrc said:


> When I price it out it comes $650 before it can even tune anything. Add $100 for a dual tuner and you're at $750 and you can't record digital cable. The Ceton card discussed here will cost between $300 and $600, so we're talking about $1000 for this setup when it becomes available.


 Yes but at least in my case I spend about that much every few years upgrading to next PC so now it would just be adding tuners to something I would get anyway. I think my biggest concern would be the power and noise of a real PC may well interfere with the experience, so it would seem using an extender on the main viewing HDTV is almost a must which then adds some more cost to the whole thing. Would probably need an extender on the 2nd HDTV which means even more cost... Certainly not cheap and yet to be determined if it is worth the price of admission, but it will be interesting to explore.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

nrc said:


> When I price it out it comes $650 before it can even tune anything. Add $100 for a dual tuner and you're at $750 and you can't record digital cable. The Ceton card discussed here will cost between $300 and $600, so we're talking about $1000 for this setup when it becomes available.


That is also for the 4 tuner and no word yet on what the 2 tuner card will run. Also he included things like a Blu Ray player which not everyone will need or want. If you want to look at possible costs and builds then look here. The thread is 338 pages so I linked to the most recent recommended systems page.

We should definitely have some ideas by CES on what the true price of the 4 tuner Ceton card will cost along with some of the other companies who are now working on cards.



moyekj said:


> Yes but at least in my case I spend about that much every few years upgrading to next PC so now it would just be adding tuners to something I would get anyway. I think my biggest concern would be the power and noise of a real PC may well interfere with the experience, so it would seem using an extender on the main viewing HDTV is almost a must which then adds some more cost to the whole thing. Would probably need an extender on the 2nd HDTV which means even more cost... Certainly not cheap and yet to be determined if it is worth the price of admission, but it will be interesting to explore.


This is the same for me. I upgrade anyway every other year or so, so I might as well throw it in. I am due for a new build anyway. I am just waiting till we get closer to the release of the cards so the other hardware costs can drop even more.

If you build a HTPC, noise and power shouldn't be a problem. At the same time you can get Xbox 360 Arcade units under $200 new, and we may even see new extender options come CES.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> but what was the actual full cost and what do you think you will spend on the cable card tuners (that actually make the thing similar to a dual tuner HD DVR)


You are comparing apples and oranges -- or rather a plow horse with a thoroughbred.

I want blu-ray. I want to view my school's games on ESPN360.com on my big screen when they don't make the networks. I want unfettered access to hulu and the myriad of other internet accessible sources. I want a GOOD way to view my media and movie collection and listen to my music collection and I want a machine that doesn't gasp and stutter and responds when I ask it to do something. Oh, and by the way I also want to have DVR functionality.

With the possible exception of the blu-ray player machines with the capabilities of the one I outlined above are about to become standard issue especially since motherboards with HDMI and excellent sound capability built-in are now readily available and quite inexpensive. I'm just impatient and getting mine a bit early so paying a premium.

A TiVo HD does a very nice job of recording and playing TV -- sluggish but nice when it doesn't gray screen like mine did again yesterday. But that's ALL it does well.

A better question is what would be the cost of a dual tuner TiVo DVR with subscriptions and the capabilities of the equipment I'll have.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

moyekj said:


> I think my biggest concern would be the power and noise of a real PC may well interfere with the experience, so it would seem using an extender on the main viewing HDTV is almost a must which then adds some more cost to the whole thing. Would probably need an extender on the 2nd HDTV which means even more cost... Certainly not cheap and yet to be determined if it is worth the price of admission, but it will be interesting to explore.


Noise level from the HTPC depends entirely on the components you select. A good source of recommended quiet components can be found at silentpcreview. You could theoretically build an HTPC completely devoid of moving fans for an absolutely quiet PC. The noisiest thing would be the hard drives, and even then you could use solid state drives if you don't mind the expense. There's no reason the HTPC should be any noisier than your existing Tivo.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

DocNo said:


> What if HP starts bundling a cable card tuner in with their WHS? I guarantee they will get the price down to well below that through volume. That's when things will get interesting.


This is what I've been thinking would be interesting - Whether it be WHS or MCE. What's been missing with MCE imnsho is a consumer appliance. I have no interest in building a HTPC. The computers which to this point have been available with cablecard tuners are too big, too loud, and too multipurpose. A MCE "Appliance" from a mainline manufacturer at an attractive price? I'd consider that.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges -- or rather a plow horse with a thoroughbred.
> 
> I want blu-ray. I want to view my school's games on ESPN360.com on my big screen when they don't make the networks. I want unfettered access to hulu and the myriad of other internet accessible sources. I want a GOOD way to view my media and movie collection and listen to my music collection and I want a machine that doesn't gasp and stutter and responds when I ask it to do something. Oh, and by the way I also want to have DVR functionality.
> 
> ...


So how much did it cost? How much will it cost?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> So how much did it cost? How much will it cost?


"it" varies depending on your choices of options. Mine was about $600 with blu-ray.

As to what "it" will cost - 
innocentfreak posted a link to the answer - it's here


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

On a side note, I had my first conflict this week. Tivo needs to take a page out of Media Center's book on this. 

I checked 7MC's Scheduled recordings and it showed on Tuesday I had a conflict with NCIS with a yellow exclamation in a triangle. I was able to select NCIS and the option to resolve conflict. I had the choice of telling it which 4 programs of the 5 I wanted to record, but it also offered an advanced record option where you can change the priority for those 5 shows also so you won't have the conflict next time.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges -- or rather a plow horse with a thoroughbred.


apples and oranges I can agree on. The horse analogy falls flat though as both horses do only one thing well and with no cross over.

I just want to keep people honest when they say things like "costs less than a TiVo HD with lifetime" As we saw the poster was talking about the basic PC build and had not factored in any way to tune things. 
If you are going to talk apple pie then don't give us just the cost of the apples.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> apples and oranges I can agree on. The horse analogy falls flat though as both horses do only one thing well and with no cross over.
> 
> I just want to keep people honest when they say things like "costs less than a TiVo HD with lifetime" As we saw the poster was talking about the basic PC build and had not factored in any way to tune things.
> If you are going to talk apple pie then don't give us just the cost of the apples.


Just Checked;
Tivo HD $300
Lifetime $400

Subtotal $700

My system $600 (subtract the blu-ray -- TiVo doesn't have it total $500)

Add networked dual tuners - $150 -- total $650 (admitedly not cablecard but accessible over my entire house. I get all the HD I need OTA)

Voila - less than a TiVoHD with Lifetime. That's without upgrading the TiVo HD as is also usually suggested @ $50-$150)

Mine won't do cablecard -- yet.
TiVoHD won't do everything else mine can do -- probably ever.

Personally I like them apples.

PS: Spare me the Current owners can get lifetime cheaper and you can find boxes on sale arguments and I'll spare you the argument that I could have gotten a cheaper processor and used less/cheaper memory rebuttal. Fact is everything works fine on my old system - the equivalent of which I can go out and buy off the shelf for < $400 + tuners now.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Mine won't do cablecard -- yet.


Kind of a large omission, since it eliminates the ability to tune some 3 quarters of all channels of a typical cable system. On some all-digital systems, you'd only be able to tune limited basic cable.

But if it makes you happy, that's all that matters .


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

RoyK said:


> Just Checked;
> Tivo HD $300
> Lifetime $400


If you are going to shop around online for PC components, then presumably you'd do the same thing for the TiVo. The TivoHD is $240+tax (sale) at Best Buy stores or $250 shipped at Amazon.com.

Lifetime is $299 from TiVo.com if you already own a TiVo, $330 if you purchase through Ebay, and $399 if you don't have a TiVo and purchase from TiVo.com.

Most cable channels are encrypted, and if not, will be soon. Comcast says it will eliminate all analog *cable* channels (and encrypt all basic cable channels) in 20% of its markets by the end of 2009, the majority of its markets by the end of 2010, and any remaining markets in 2011. At that point, only locals _(analog and digital)_ will be in the clear, and you'll need a CableCard tuner


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Yes I don't think cost is an advantage yet for HTPC, however the prospect of adding enough tuners on 1 system and being able to schedule everything from 1 place such that there will never be conflicts, along with several other advantages of HTPC is what really interests me.
Conflict management on Tivos with only 2 tuners per system can be real pain when you have a bunch of primetime shows recording at once. I don't think we'll ever see cooperative scheduling from Tivo across multiple units.
Another pain with Tivos is getting shows off the Tivos to a PC can take a long time since it's pretty slow, so would be nice to have shows recorded directly to a PC for further processing (assuming lessened DRM with MCE really pans out).


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> If you are going to shop around online for PC components, then presumably you'd do the same thing for the TiVo. The TivoHD is $240+tax (sale) at Best Buy stores or $250 shipped at Amazon.com.
> 
> Lifetime is $299 from TiVo.com if you already own a TiVo, $330 if you purchase lifetime through Ebay, and $399 if you don't have a TiVo and purchase the lifetime from TiVo.com.
> 
> Most cable channels are encrypted, and if not, will be soon. Comcast says it will eliminate all analog cable channels (and encrypt all basic cable channels) in 20% of its markets by the end of 2009, the majority of its markets by the end of 2010, and any remaining markets in 2011. At that point, only locals will be in the clear.


If I had shopped around I could have spent considerably less. Instead I chose components that I feel will have considerably more capability than I really need at present to give me room to grow in the future.

I don't have comcast.

Let's see what the prices for cablecard tuners are at the end of 2010 - and whether TiVos will do everything else a HTPC will do by then (which was my main motivation for a HTPC in the first place).

Right now I have a TiVo HD and 3 Series 2s. I expect by the end of 2010 I'll have 0 TiVo HDs and my Series 2s will be reverted to TiVo Basic or gone altogether.

But time will tell.

This debate will probably last that long.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Cost for a basic HTPC with dual ATSC/QAM tuners vs. a single Tivo HD with lifetime is going to be fairly close. The Tivo HD with CableCARDs is going to be able to access more channels than the HTPC unless you add in the cost of CableCARD tuners to the HTPC. It's when you want to go beyond two tuners that the HTPC becomes the less expensive option. 

Once you've got the basic PC, all you need to do is install the additional tuners. With the Tivo, you'd have to buy a complete Tivo with lifetime for each additional pair of tuners. In my case, I already have an HTPC with six ATSC tuners. All I need to do is install one of the four-tuner Ceton tuners and my two S3 Tivos will be history.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Voila - less than a TiVoHD with Lifetime. That's without upgrading the TiVo HD as is also usually suggested @ $50-$150)
> 
> Mine won't do cablecard -- yet.
> TiVoHD won't do everything else mine can do -- probably ever.


so you admit you are comparing a PC pricing that can not do what a TiVo HD does. That was my very point. 
oh and did you pay manufacturer suggested retail for the PC and components? That would be dumb.

so why keep hammering on the price thing when you obviously are just tyring to spin a debateable argument your way? The value you get from paying some more for an HTPC is why you do it, you want the versatility/expandability/all in one of an HTPC. In the long run that gives you much more value for *your* dollars and no one would dispute that.

Still it does not show a selling point for the mass market - most people barely use the functionality of the DVRs they have and so many more think "It just records shows I already sit down and watch at no extra cost". My main point all along is that selling DVRs to the mass market is hard enough, let alone if it is a PC and has even further scary connotations to the avergae person.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so you admit you are comparing a PC pricing that can not do what a TiVo HD does. ....


Fair enough. I'll concede that if you will concede that a TiVo HD cannot do what a HTPC does. In fact it can't do much more than record/play tv *by itself*.

Want to view your photo collection? - need a PC.
Want to play your music? -- need a PC.
Want to view ripped movies? -- need a PC.
Want to watch Netflix? -- need a PC (to queue).
Want to upgrade the hard drive? Need a PC ( or go pay somebody a premium).
Want to download your recordings to a Ipod or similar? -- need a PC.

Want to watch a DVD? -- need a PC (or a DVD player).
Want to watch ESPN360.com, HULU, or a vast and growing number of other internet video sources? -- sorry. Can't do that.



ZeoTiVo said:


> My main point all along is that selling DVRs to the mass market is hard enough, let alone if it is a PC and has even further scary connotations to the avergae person.


Oh, and I have news for you. These days the average person isn't scared of PCs. I can't imagine plugging a PC's hdmi cable to the HDTV, getting a cable card installed, and clicking Windows Media Center and sitting down with a remote and enjoying will scare most folks -- and that's what they will be able to do with an off-the-shelf box ( I predict in the sub $700 price bracket )in the next few months.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I've got to play devil's advocate on this one. Since virtually everyone has a home computer these days, most of the points being made in the referenced post are irrelevent since it is highly unlikely that someone that owns a Tivo does not already own a PC. We're talking about HTPCs here, not standard desktops or laptops. The functions listed are easily supported by any generic PC that is completely devoid of media center functionality.



RoyK said:


> Fair enough. I'll concede that if you will concede that a TiVo HD cannot do what a HTPC does. In fact it can't do much more than record/play tv *by itself*.
> 
> Want to view your photo collection? - need a PC. Tivo can do this
> Want to play your music? -- need a PC. Tivo can do this too
> ...


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I've got to play devil's advocate on this one. Since virtually everyone has a home computer these days, most of the points being made in the referenced post are irrelevent since it is highly unlikely that someone that owns a Tivo does not already own a PC. We're talking about HTPCs here, not standard desktops or laptops. The functions listed are easily supported by any generic PC that is completely devoid of media center functionality.


I don't buy it. To get these functions one requires a PC in addition to a TiVo. Dedicated or not - the functionality isn't there without the PC.

The argument I responded to was what a TiVo can do vs what a PC with tuners can do.

As to Ipods and Net videos - strictly a matter of opinion there.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I already have an HTPC with six ATSC tuners. All I need to do is install one of the four-tuner Ceton tuners and my two S3 Tivos will be history.


A customer who already owns an HTPC with 6 tuners is likely to drop tivo when a 4 (or even 6) cable card enabled tuners becomes available. I don't think there are very many tivo customers in this category.

I agree with the pps, this is still a niche market.

I won't go so far as to say it will be "the end of tivo" but I think tivo will take a bigger hit when cable companies start to enable the eSATA port on many units. Cablevision remote DVRs might even give tivo a bigger hit then HTPC. No need for UPS. No worry about backup. You need more storage pay a extra fee.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> I've got to play devil's advocate on this one. Since virtually everyone has a home computer these days, most of the points being made in the referenced post are irrelevent since it is highly unlikely that someone that owns a Tivo does not already own a PC. We're talking about HTPCs here, not standard desktops or laptops. The functions listed are easily supported by any generic PC that is completely devoid of media center functionality.


Well also playing devil's advocate those same people have the potential to have a PC that can also serve as a DVR with only the addition of a tuner and Windows 7.

My HTPC is a mid-tower that sits under my desk. It is also the same PC that serves up content to my 360 and runs Tivo Desktop so I can pull shows with my Tivo.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Well also playing devil's advocate those *same people have the potential to have a PC that can also serve as a DVR with only the addition of a tuner and Windows 7.*
> 
> My HTPC is a mid-tower that sits under my desk. It is also the same PC that serves up content to my 360 and runs Tivo Desktop so I can pull shows with my Tivo.


Not really. People can use a web enabled phone to setup their netflix queue. A person can run pyTivo (or TD) with a netbook, notebook or old PC. Works OK if you want to show photos or music. Might even work to transfer (and store) shows in the tivo format.

Many of those units may not meet the requirements for Windows 7, with tuner cards and media center.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Been seriously thinking about using MCE with CableCard multi-tuner as a Tivo replacement. One issue that occurred to me is that I use Slingbox quite a lot for remote viewing of recordings (and sometimes live TV). With MCE solutions I don't think there are any profiles that can be use with Slingbox. i.e. How could one control MCE via Slingbox?
With Tivos of course Slingbox has Tivo profiles so that IR blaster controls the Tivo box so works very well.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Oh, and I have news for you. These days the average person isn't scared of PCs.


Never said they were afraid of PCs - they just are happy if their PC will connect to the wireless and do the things like run Rhapsody/Itunes or be able to deal with game web pages and get their email etc.. But to take that same cantankerous PC that has issues with 'normal' PC stuff and tell them their enjoyment of Grey's Anatomy depends on it - that is where the disconnect comes in. You simply are not getting that point as you are deep into what you want to do and find HTPC reliable - but you know PCs and what you are doing. many do not have such familiarity with PCs.


> I can't imagine plugging a PC's hdmi cable to the HDTV, getting a cable card installed, and clicking Windows Media Center and sitting down with a remote and enjoying will scare most folks -- and that's what they will be able to do with an off-the-shelf box ( I predict in the sub $700 price bracket )in the next few months.


hehe - I want to go to a mall now and take a random poll of folks on what a HDMI cable is. Then for bonus points we can ask them about a Tuner card and what a cable card is. 

Will you or I be able to walk into Best Buy in a few months and buy everything needed for this HTPC? Very Likely (assuming cable card tuners are out). Would either of us want to ask much more than where they keep PCs of the associate? Not likely. Would you let Geek Squad do the setup, even for Free?

TiVo has had to make a freaking contract with Best Buy in order to educate their associates about a standalone DVR. Getting them to understand the difference between a plain jane TV tuner and cable card tuners? Good luck.

and for the big question - just why do you think the CE companies made such a big push for people being able to install their own cable card tuners? So they could then suddenly put turnkey systems in the store, that have an added 400$ to the price tag for something the cable company has to come and make work ?

I wish TiVo good luck in selling stand alone DVRs that need a cable card - that will be hard enough for Best Buy.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lew said:


> I won't go so far as to say it will be "the end of tivo" but I think tivo will take a bigger hit when cable companies start to enable the eSATA port on many units. Cablevision remote DVRs might even give tivo a bigger hit then HTPC. No need for UPS. No worry about backup. You need more storage pay a extra fee.


this is probably the biggest reason people come looking at TiVo - more space for recordings. Just my guess of course - could be OTA or Netflix or they feel TiVo will work better than cable company DVR, etc.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

All things being equal a dedicated appliance like TIVO is easier to use, so anyone who can meet their needs with 2 tuners probably won't buy an HTPC. So HTPC users are going to be folks that with a recording capacity that exceeds 2 tuners. Probably a very small minority of the total DVR users. Also, many people work at a computer all day so the idea of having to use a computer to watch TV can be a turn off.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> All things being equal a dedicated appliance like TIVO is easier to use, so anyone who can meet their needs with 2 tuners probably won't buy an HTPC..


and I would make that 2 tuners per TV


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

moyekj said:


> Been seriously thinking about using MCE with CableCard multi-tuner as a Tivo replacement. One issue that occurred to me is that I use Slingbox quite a lot for remote viewing of recordings (and sometimes live TV). With MCE solutions I don't think there are any profiles that can be use with Slingbox. i.e. How could one control MCE via Slingbox?
> With Tivos of course Slingbox has Tivo profiles so that IR blaster controls the Tivo box so works very well.


Well no one really knows the limits yet on the new cable card tuners, but I don't see why you couldn't remote desktop into your 7MC and view things remotely that way. Using the 360 now as an extender you wouldn't really know you aren't using the PC so there should be an easy way to set up something for viewing remotely. Windows 7 has a feature actually built in but I haven't tested it yet since my new router has been a pain setting up outside access. You can read more here.

Also does slingbox have a profile for the 360 since it can use an IR remote? If so there is your solution right there since the 360 works as a fully functioning extender.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> Well no one really knows the limits yet on the new cable card tuners, but I don't see why you couldn't remote desktop into your 7MC and view things remotely that way. Using the 360 now as an extender you wouldn't really know you aren't using the PC so there should be an easy way to set up something for viewing remotely. Windows 7 has a feature actually built in but I haven't tested it yet since my new router has been a pain setting up outside access. You can read more here.
> 
> Also does slingbox have a profile for the 360 since it can use an IR remote? If so there is your solution right there since the 360 works as a fully functioning extender.


 Last time I tried Remote Desktop for displaying video it was very lousy so I don't think that will cut it. I checked out that link you provided on Windows 7 Slingbox like functionality, but as stated in that article there are several limitations such as both client & server need to be Windows 7 (showstopper right there) and cannot view any DRM'd media (since Slingbox encodes from analog DRM does not matter).
Don't know if 360 has a Slingbox profile or not.

After some digging around however it looks like there may be a native MCE solution already available without the need for a Slingbox - webguide
Looks like that essentially adds a web server to MCE that can then be accessed remotely via html (hopefully with some security though I didn't read up on it yet).


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

moyekj said:


> Last time I tried Remote Desktop for displaying video it was very lousy so I don't think that will cut it. I checked out that link you provided on Windows 7 Slingbox like functionality, but as stated in that article there are several limitations such as both client & server need to be Windows 7 (showstopper right there) and cannot view any DRM'd media (since Slingbox encodes from analog DRM does not matter).
> Don't know if 360 has a Slingbox profile or not.
> 
> After some digging around however it looks like there may be a native MCE solution already available without the need for a Slingbox - webguide
> Looks like that essentially adds a web server to MCE that can then be accessed remotely via html (hopefully with some security though I didn't read up on it yet).


Well that article was based off the RC and before the OEM restriction drop so who knows what will happen there. I did find some mentions of people using Slingbox and their 360 but no idea how well it worked in the real world.

Also the webguide developer joined MS which is why there hasn't been an update. People keep hoping there will be a version for Windows 7 or some type of add on released later, but no word as of yet.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> hehe - I want to go to a mall now and take a random poll of folks on what a HDMI cable is. Then for bonus points we can ask them about a Tuner card and what a cable card is.


If you want a real eye opener then go into a Best Buy and poll the employees and see how many of them can tell you what an HDMI cable is.



> Will you or I be able to walk into Best Buy in a few months and buy everything needed for this HTPC? Very Likely (assuming cable card tuners are out). Would either of us want to ask much more than where they keep PCs of the associate? Not likely. Would you let Geek Squad do the setup, even for Free?






> TiVo has had to make a freaking contract with Best Buy in order to educate their associates about a standalone DVR. Getting them to understand the difference between a plain jane TV tuner and cable card tuners? Good luck.


This applies to Tivo and every other CE manufacturer. Best Buy drones have got to be the most clueless people on the planet. I think they hire the rejects from RatShack that couldn't get a job there.



> I wish TiVo good luck in selling stand alone DVRs that need a cable card - that will be hard enough for Best Buy.


Huh?


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## SCOHO83 (Jun 3, 2008)

I have built HTPC's, used cable company DVR's on cable and FiOS and even Uverse from ATT. First the issue with a "central" HTPC with multiple tuners is quite simple... First one is controlling a tuner which might be two or three rooms away from you... thats a bunch of IR Blaster technology to install... stringing HDMI through your existing house from the PC, or buying ethernet PC's (still need to run cat 5 now to all tv's) or relying on wireless networking and media center... can you say bye-bye HDTV (unless you only plan on running one tv at a time). Also, think of the HTPC.. multiple e-SATA drives to allow each tv to run (hard-disks would have a bit of an issue feeding 3-4 HDTV feeds at the same time), multiple vbideocards (for the TV output, unless you upgrade all your TV's to ethernet Media center playing type TV's) etc, etc, etc. And against Cable DVR's, someone hit it on the head earlier... interface is just plain easier on a TIVO. (When we went HDTV and lost the use of our series 1 a few years back.. my wife after 3 mos was saying "I want a TIVO back...this cable system stinks compared to what we had" and thus back to TIVO). 
So in a nut shell.. HTPC's that can do what y'all are discussing will be expensive when you consider everything you will have to do to make it work, and versus DVR, so you pay an extra $50 per TV (over 2-years) for convenience? Yes!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SCOHO83 said:


> First the issue with a "central" HTPC with multiple tuners is quite simple... First one is controlling a tuner which might be two or three rooms away from you... thats a bunch of IR Blaster technology to install... stringing HDMI through your existing house from the PC, or buying ethernet PC's (still need to run cat 5 now to all tv's) or relying on wireless networking and media center...


well that is why folks in this thread point to extenders like Xbox 360 to eliminate much of the above hassle. You still need ethernet network but then to use TiVo fully you need ethernet as well. Cable Company DVRs just have no features needing ethernet.
So all you really miss out on is seeing Netflix stream in HD, but then Xbox has Xbox live(I think it costs more though). Still, therre is technology available that is mature but still growing to deal with TVs in other rooms. In fact many likely use a HTPC that is not in their living room even.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

You're not missing out on Netflix in HD, the Xbox360s can do that (but you do have to get a Live sub at approx $40/yr to stream Netflix). The only issue with them is noise and power consumption, but I've heard the later 360s are not bad on noise.

So I agree, most of what SCO says is not valid and Arcade versions of the 360 can be had for $100-$150 used at Gamestop, craigslist etc., which is pretty damn cheap for an HD extender.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

As of today Microsoft released the ATI firmware updates for the single tuners and they also released the tool for checking if your Windows 7 machine is compliant. It is under Media Center so I don't know if there is a separate download to try, but since it requires Windows 7 I doubt it.

Both of my PCs passed the test. The old computer which I wasn't sure if would pass due to the video card is
Intel C2D E6600
2gigs of DDR800 
650gb drive + 1TB drive
Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P
7900GS video card.

I don't have any older systems I can test though it will be curious to see what passes and what fails.


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## Richard Berg (Jan 26, 2008)

Finally!

But no, I don't think it's a threat to Tivo. There may be considerable overlap between the people _on this forum_ and the people who build/buy HTPCs, but in general Tivo and MCE serve two different markets.


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