# Dish and CBS strike deal, but auto hop neutered



## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/6/7344537/dish-deal-ends-cbs-blackout-but-kills-auto-hop

I put this in the coffeehouse because I think it is a relevant conversation about commercial skipping and why tivo hasn't implemented hopping technology. Expect the other broadcasters to quickly follow suit.

I also think it goes to the fact that broadcasters will work hard to safeguard the advertising revenue - keep this in mind as we move to an IP on demand streaming future - most likely designed around the Hulu Plus model



> According to a joint press release, Auto Hop will now be disabled on CBS for a full seven days after shows premiere in primetime. That's a valuable window for broadcasters: one of Nielsen's audience-measuring metrics, known as C7, estimates the number of viewers who watch the commercials for each show during its premiere and any DVR viewings up to seven days after. Broadcasters use those metrics to sell ads and set prices for spots.
> 
> But for Dish customers, it effectively kills Auto Hop. Before today's agreement, primetime shows watched after 1AM the following day would have the commercials automatically "erased." Now subscribers will either have to wait a week to watch the latest episode of their favorite show, or they'll go back to the old way of doing things: manually fast-forwarding through commercials on their DVR.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

If the fee were reasonable, I would gladly pay something to automatically wipe out commercials during the programs I watch that were recorded from network channels. I could conceivably even be convinced to allow a certain number midway or before or after.

The general problem is that the fee they would want isn't representative of what my [potential] viewing of those spots brings them.

If a 30-second commercial averages $100,000, and there's 22 30-second spots available, that's $2.2 million in ad revenue during an hour-long program, on average. If there were 5,000,000 viewers that'd be potentially $0.44/viewer for that hour.

Yes, it's more complicated; as internal promos make up some of that time, and bartering with affiliates, and differing rates and guarantees... and of course ratings differences and actual costs charged for different programs, but however it all works out, it's hardly likely to represent $2 which is what they're asking now, generally.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I think if I were a Dish customer with one of their DVRs I'd have to give strong consideration to switching providers, assuming at least one other was available in my area. I'd have to refuse to sign up with any service that exhibited that much control over how I watched TV, especially if I was paying for both the service and the hardware to watch it. I understand the rationale behind it, but the end result is that the customer pays a penalty for watching free channels via satellite.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Next they'll force them to disable FF for the first 7 days.

We need TiVo to survive. Without them our only option will be DVRs from MSOs, and with them having to deal directly with the content providers more and more "deals" like this are going to start emerging.

Honestly if we ever get to the point where we're forced to watch commericals I'm going to stop watching non-premium TV. The value of the programs, to me, are not worth having to sit through 18 minutes of ads for every 42 minutes of content.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

It surprises me they caved on this. I wonder who really needs who more? I suppose DTV/Uverse/Comcast were chomping at the bit to churn their customers but on the other hand CBS would have lost a big chunk of viewers for a while. Its interesting they waited till after sweeps.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

This makes it a little bit easier to have just cancelled Dish. The auto-hop feature was one of the best things about the Hopper, and now that is gone for 50% of the channels it used to be available on for at least a few days after broadcast. I am very happy with my Roamio/Mini other than missing something that seems to be disappearing from the Hopper over time.


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> I think if I were a Dish customer with one of their DVRs I'd have to give strong consideration to switching providers, assuming at least one other was available in my area. I'd have to refuse to sign up with any service that exhibited that much control over how I watched TV, especially if I was paying for both the service and the hardware to watch it. I understand the rationale behind it, but the end result is that the customer pays a penalty for watching free channels via satellite.


Dish doesn't force a customer to use PrimeTime Anytime, nor Autohop. A customer is free to use it or not. It is/was merely an option. More options is more customer control, not less.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

zalusky said:


> It surprises me they caved on this. I wonder who really needs who more? I suppose DTV/Uverse/Comcast were chomping at the bit to churn their customers but on the other hand CBS would have lost a big chunk of viewers for a while. Its interesting they waited till after sweeps.


If Dish didn't have CBS they would have a mass customer exodus and would find it much harder to sign new customers. CBS has the NFL and some of the most popular shows on television. They needed to have CBS more than CBS needed Dish.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Well, even Dish subscribers long suspected from the beginning that Auto-Hop was for leverage at contract renewal time, and it certainly seems to have worked the way Dish wanted as something of a "false concession."

Auto-hop is not, and never will be eliminated, but all the broadcaster really want is for the Auto-hop feature not to be activated until the day after its Window as negotiated with the media buyers.

For example, ABC currently only had C3 agreements (still the industry standard) and this is why Dish agreed for the Auto-hop feature to be functional only after the 3rd day for ABC. CBS has ONE agreement (with GroupM) for a C7 window. Of course, Les Moonves has to have Auto-hop disabled until after the 7th day, and that appears to have have been an issue for Dish. I believe Fox and NBC have at least one C7 deal, as well, and we can expect those two to require Auto-hop disabled until after the 7th day as well. The broadcasters KNOW they have no chance of winning their suits against Auto-hop and this is why both Disney (ABC) and CBS have also agreed to drop their suits against Auto-hop. The broadcasters just want to get paid from the media buyers for the full 3 or 7 seven days without having to factor in a discount for Auto-hop

Further, it seems Dish also got what it wanted: digital rights to all the CBS owned content (including Showtime and all the other channels) and a path to providing CBS owned content on Dish's soon to launch OTT service, the first one ever. Add this to all the Disney content that is already set for the OTT service, and for about $30 per month (the stated price point Dish said they think will work for the consuer), and that is a lot of KING content (ESPN available OTT is a cord-cutters dream), and then we have to add even MORE content partners that are set to be a part of the Dish OTT launch, but don't want it known until launch, and it easily makes the Dish OTT service the most compelling. Egan is on the verge of having done it again. Aced out his competitors.

As for the loss of the Auto-hop for 3 to 7 days, this has not caused any big problems at the Dish forums nor with any people I know who use the Auto-hop feature, and here is, most likley why: The broadcasters and other industry publications have stated that according to research, viewers time-shift major broadcaster prime-time programming the most by far, and several days out from recording date, while all the other "cable" channels are most often watched live or time-shifted significantly less than the major broadcast networks. This could explain why the impact on Dish subscribers is nearly silent since ABC recordings have had delayed Auto-hop and why there is just no great expressions of dissatisfaction even with the CBS C7 delay of Auto-hop. Also, advertisers and media buyers are pushing against C7 and have no desire to go there for good reasons on their part, and they feel C7 will not be the norm and we could see C3 (still the industry standard) return for all, and they provide some sound reasoning for it,and why the C7 window will fail.

As far the silly idea of considering other providers: the Hopper is still the best DVR system out there today with several other features that make it so (along with the Genie) adn worth the price and why no one I know of has or is leaving Dish just because of Auto-hop working in accordance with a broadcasters C3 or C7 agreement with media buyers


There is PTAT, and full experience at client except for PinP (this is NOT the case with the TiVo Mini and its limitations compared to Dish and DirecTV clients are a pain, but I accept TiVo lost is premium brains for innovation a long time ago). One can access and control and access ALL tuners at the client, not so with Mini, an irritant more than once for me.

Using only ONE tuner to record (or watch live, even at all locations at the same time) all major broadcasters 24 hours per day, yes, even outside of PTAT. That would mean that a TiVo Roamio could record all 4 major broadcasters at, say, noon, and still have 3 tuners free for recording more channels.

Built in Sling: Yes the Roamios have Stream built in, but Sling is the best at what it does and has the proprietary encoding for superior streaming PQ in even slow connections and with far fewer restrictions (we're talking the built-in to the Hopper implantation) than the Mini. Even Dave Zats agrees on that one.

A far better EPG with full channel logos and easier to read than any other EPG out there.

There are several other features, some just released, that make it the best out there and making one shake their head at TiVo for not offering the same, but TiVo is not what it used to be: the BEST DVR. It is, instead, among the best, but #3 after Hopper and Genie, but still a great DVR, but lacking a lot of features the other two have. One small feature the Hopper has I wish the TiVo had was that I do not have to go and drill down to the recordings list to continue watching a recording I had to stop due to interruption. Instead, on the Hopper, the last watched DVR even is listed from the previous channel list. So much easier than other DVR's out there.

So, this CBS agreement is much ado about nothing as far as Auto-hop, but much bigger for Dish's coming OTT.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Azlen said:


> If Dish didn't have CBS they would have a mass customer exodus and would find it much harder to sign new customers. CBS has the NFL and some of the most popular shows on television. They needed to have CBS more than CBS needed Dish.


Dish did not have a mass consumer exidous when CBS went dark the last time. In fact, Congress held a hearing during the blackout and were very UNFRIENDLY towards CBS because they are a broadcaster with obligations other channels do not have and even the conservative Republicans made it clear they saw this as a CBS problem, not a Dish one.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Does Dish have 30 second skip?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Next they'll force them to disable FF for the first 7 days.
> 
> We need TiVo to survive. Without them our only option will be DVRs from MSOs, and with them having to deal directly with the content providers more and more "deals" like this are going to start emerging.
> *
> Honestly if we ever get to the point where we're forced to watch commericals I'm going to stop watching non-premium TV. The value of the programs, to me, are not worth having to sit through 18 minutes of ads for every 42 minutes of content.*


As much as it pains me to agree, I agree. I had to watch Scorpion on Comcast OnDemand last week (the press conf fiasco), and it was incredibly painful sitting thru those commercials. I would probably still watch my must-see non-prem TV, but the bar for must-see would be incredibly high.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Series3Sub said:


> Well, even Dish subscribers long suspected from the beginning that Auto-Hop was for leverage at contract renewal time...


Most Dish subs don't yet know that Auto-hop is being negotiated away. PTAT only keeps recordings for 8 days, leaving 1 day to watch CBS content with auto-hop (yes, I know there are ways to keep recordings longer, but that means going in and setting timers for the shows you want to keep, effectively neutering the benefit of PTAT in the first place).

Charlie Ergen is poised to not just out maneuver his competitors again, he is also about to sell out his customers. He has been executing his exit plan from satellite TV for the past couple of years, just like he planned his exit from C-Band satellite sales 20 years ago. He will leverage his Dish subscribers to gain concessions for his OTT service, which he sees as the future. Charlie is a very sharp guy, and he looks out for number 1.


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> Does Dish have 30 second skip?


yes, dish has 30 second forward, and 10 second skip back.

And to another point (not yours), not allowing Autohop for 3 or 7 days doesn't disable fast forward, rewind, skip forward or skip back, it just doesn't automatically hide the commercials until after the 3 or 7 days.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> We need TiVo to survive. Without them our only option will be DVRs from MSOs, and with them having to deal directly with the content providers more and more "deals" like this are going to start emerging.


Seriously? You seem to forget that there's still quite a few options via the HTPC route. For flagged content there's always Windows Media Center. For everything else there are quite a few DVR options available for the PC. Whether or not you like the UI or have some other beef with them, they are definitely a viable alternative to DVRs from any provider, except perhaps Dish or DirecTV. Even then there are ways to record from either satellite provider without being forced into using their DVRs, although the methodology may be less desirable to some.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> Seriously? You seem to forget that there's still quite a few options via the HTPC route. For flagged content there's always Windows Media Center. For everything else there are quite a few DVR options available for the PC. Whether or not you like the UI or have some other beef with them, they are definitely a viable alternative to DVRs from any provider, except perhaps Dish or DirecTV. Even then there are ways to record from either satellite provider without being forced into using their DVRs, although the methodology may be less desirable to some.


The HTPC is not a viable DVR appliance for the general consumer. Does it work? Yes, but that doesn't matter.

Is my father going to spend time setting up and configuring a HTPC? Not a chance! Frankly, without TiVo, even most technically trained people would (and do) just opt for the MSO equipment.

People in general like an easy to use appliance - bottom line.

In the grand scheme of things, does TiVo really need to survive? Sounds like a first world issue to me. But without them we would be stuck with MSO equipment that never gets updated or replaced. HTPC will never be more than a blip compared to the DVR as an appliance.

I think eventually, somebody big will finally take on TV and disrupt the status quo - At that point TiVo will probably be purchased for both IP and brand.

But the HTPC DVR will die...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

bradleys said:


> The HTPC is not a viable DVR appliance for the general consumer. Does it work? Yes, but that doesn't matter.
> 
> Is my father going to spend time setting up and configuring a HTPC? Not a chance! Frankly, without TiVo, even most technically trained people would (and do) just opt for the MSO equipment.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to get into another debate about the viability of a HTPC vs. Tivo or any other DVR as that's been done to death. My post was in response to the statement that the MSO DVR was the only other option to Tivo, period. It clearly is not the only available option and that is all that I was trying to point out. As for being an appliance, that mostly depends on your ability to set up a HTPC properly as well as having hardware and software that plays nice together. All four of mine run 24/7 without a single glitch. Having used both Tivos and HTPCs for many years I can honestly say that either platform works reliably and equally well as a DVR, at least that's been my experience.

I would never even consider setting up a HTPC for anyone that lives outside of my household as I don't want to be anyone's service technician on call 24/7. I already get that for other computer related problems from my kids, mother, and other relations. HTPCs are geared towards hobbyists so they're not something you're going to pick up at your local Best Buy as a plug-and-play DVR. Anyone that's familiar with them already knows this. Don't build one and expect it to work right out of the box. There's most definitely a learning curve that goes along with the hobby. If you want an appliance like a Tivo, then stick with the provider's DVR.

HTPC DVRs will be around for a very long time, regardless of your opinion. OTA broadcasting isn't going away anytime soon at the very least and cablecard tuners are likely to be around for a good while longer as well. I understand that providers are looking to get away from the cablecard standard, but as long as they still have them they'll be happy to rent you one.

FWIW, back when I set up my first Series 3 Tivo on FIOS I showed my HTPC to the tech that installed the cablecards in my Tivo. He just thought it was the coolest thing ever.

Now, if you wanted to state that the MSO DVR is the only other option for technically illiterate consumers then I'd agree with you 100%.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> As for the loss of the Auto-hop for 3 to 7 days, this has not caused any big problems at the Dish forums nor with any people I know who use the Auto-hop feature, and here is, most likley why: The broadcasters and other industry publications have stated that according to research, viewers time-shift major broadcaster prime-time programming the most by far, and several days out from recording date, while all the other "cable" channels are most often watched live or time-shifted significantly less than the major broadcast networks. This could explain why the impact on Dish subscribers is nearly silent since ABC recordings have had delayed Auto-hop and why there is just no great expressions of dissatisfaction even with the CBS C7 delay of Auto-hop.


OR maybe it is because the consumer still has 30 second skip !?!!??


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Seriously? You seem to forget that there's still quite a few options via the HTPC route. For flagged content there's always Windows Media Center. For everything else there are quite a few DVR options available for the PC. Whether or not you like the UI or have some other beef with them, they are definitely a viable alternative to DVRs from any provider, except perhaps Dish or DirecTV. Even then there are ways to record from either satellite provider without being forced into using their DVRs, although the methodology may be less desirable to some.


HTPCs are not viable alternatives to the MSO DVR for the average consumer. The average consumer is not going to build a PC to act as their DVR. Heck most don't even realize that's possible. TiVo is barely a viable alternative, with it's high cost of entry and potential setup issues. People realy only look to TiVo if they've got some compelling reason to want to ditch the cable DVR.

The reason Dish has no problem caving to CBS like this is because there are no alternatives to their own DVR for their service. They've got government approval to create a closed system where their hardware is the only option. If that weren't the case and there was an alternative DVR that offered "auto-hop" then Dish never would have made this deal. Lack of competition is what leads to these sort of anti-consumer deals.

TiVo may not be major competition to the cable companies, but they are enough of an alternative that they keep the cable companies from completely screwing us over. If TiVo dies then it's only a matter of time before cable companies transition to "cloud DVRs" and then apply the same C3/C7 window to FFing past commercials that they do with on demand.

Us geeks will always find a way, but the average consumer wont bother.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> HTPCs are not viable alternatives to the MSO DVR for the average consumer. The average consumer is not going to build a PC to act as their DVR. Heck most don't even realize that's possible. TiVo is barely a viable alternative, with it's high cost of entry and potential setup issues. People realy only look to TiVo if they've got some compelling reason to want to ditch the cable DVR.
> 
> The reason Dish has no problem caving to CBS like this is because there are no alternatives to their own DVR for their service. They've got government approval to create a closed system where their hardware is the only option. If that weren't the case and there was an alternative DVR that offered "auto-hop" then Dish never would have made this deal. Lack of competition is what leads to these sort of anti-consumer deals.
> 
> ...


Dan, next time say what you mean. There was nothing in the statement you made that qualified it for "average consumers" only. You flat out stated that there were no other options for a DVR so I responded to set you straight.

FWIW, the "average consumer" barely knows what a DVR is, let alone a Tivo. Everything that's discussed here are mostly niche products. There are millions more PCs being sold than Tivos or other DVRs so HTPCs aren't as far out there as a niche product as you might think. Keep in mind that just about any PC can be classified as a HTPC if it's used to play back any type of media via a variety of front ends and not just WMC. It doesn't have to be a DVR to qualify.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Dan, next time say what you mean. There was nothing in the statement you made that qualified it for "average consumers" only. You flat out stated that there were no other options for a DVR so I responded to set you straight..


Well when it comes to premium content TiVo really is the only viable option. MSE development has halted and will likely be EOLed with Win8. Which means that TiVo is the only DVR being actively developed that supports CableCARDs. Unless someone else comes along to fill the gap the HTPC as a means to record premium content is going to die off soon. (maybe SD or Ceton will write their own DVR software and save the segment?)


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> Dan, next time say what you mean. There was nothing in the statement you made that qualified it for "average consumers" only. You flat out stated that there were no other options for a DVR so I responded to set you straight........


Yeah, there's a lot of that going around lately!


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Dan, next time say what you mean. There was nothing in the statement you made that qualified it for "average consumers" only. You flat out stated that there were no other options for a DVR so I responded to set you straight.
> 
> FWIW, the "average consumer" barely knows what a DVR is, let alone a Tivo. Everything that's discussed here are mostly niche products. There are millions more PCs being sold than Tivos or other DVRs so HTPCs aren't as far out there as a niche product as you might think. Keep in mind that just about any PC can be classified as a HTPC if it's used to play back any type of media via a variety of front ends and not just WMC. It doesn't have to be a DVR to qualify.


52% of households with Cable/Sat/Uverse have a DVR. I think your a bit off on that statement.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/30/dvr-percentage-american_n_2220571.html


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Well when it comes to premium content TiVo really is the only viable option. MSE development has halted and will likely be EOLed with Win8. Which means that TiVo is the only DVR being actively developed that supports CableCARDs. Unless someone else comes along to fill the gap the HTPC as a means to record premium content is going to die off soon. (maybe SD or Ceton will write their own DVR software and save the segment?)


Microsoft already announced that it will be available as an add-on for Windows 10 so I think you're a bit premature in announcing the death of WMC.

Any more disinformation you wish to spread? 



zalusky said:


> 52% of households with Cable/Sat/Uverse have a DVR. I think your a bit off on that statement.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/30/dvr-percentage-american_n_2220571.html


I'd be curious to know just how many of those subscribers even realize they have a DVR and whether or not they actually use them. Verizon gave my mother a DVR when she signed up for FIOS and she didn't even know she had one, let alone know how to use it. I know lots of people with DVRs from their providers, but they rarely use them, if ever.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> .........Any more disinformation you wish to spread?  ........


Yes, he wants everyone to know that component video is "analog by definition". 

(Sorry Dan, couldn't resist!)


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Microsoft already announced that it will be available as an add-on for Windows 10 so I think you're a bit premature in announcing the death of WMC.
> 
> Any more disinformation you wish to spread?
> 
> I'd be curious to know just how many of those subscribers even realize they have a DVR and whether or not they actually use them. Verizon gave my mother a DVR when she signed up for FIOS and she didn't even know she had one, let alone know how to use it. I know lots of people with DVRs from their providers, but they rarely use them, if ever.


Most of my trailer trash relatives know what a DVR is and use it. Even my friends who actually don't have a DVR know what it is. I think your just saying things without anything to back it up. This is not 2004 any more.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Next they'll force them to disable FF for the first 7 days.
> 
> We need TiVo to survive. Without them our only option will be DVRs from MSOs, and with them having to deal directly with the content providers more and more "deals" like this are going to start emerging.
> 
> Honestly if we ever get to the point where we're forced to watch commericals I'm going to stop watching non-premium TV. The value of the programs, to me, are not worth having to sit through 18 minutes of ads for every 42 minutes of content.


Agreed that FF is next for captured DVRs, but we'll have WMC and Cablecards for many more years as a fallback if Tivo gets stupid and takes the pill. I don't think they'd be willing to commit retail suicide by doing that however.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

zalusky said:


> Most of my trailer trash relatives know what a DVR is and use it. Even my friends who actually don't have a DVR know what it is. I think your just saying things without anything to back it up. This is not 2004 any more.


So, you need to be a trailer trash relative to know what a DVR is? Things have certainly changed since 2004.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Microsoft already announced that it will be available as an add-on for Windows 10 so I think you're a bit premature in announcing the death of WMC.
> 
> Any more disinformation you wish to spread?


Really? Link? Believe it or not this is good news to me if it's true. A LOT of our customers are MCE users and we have a lot invested in our WTV support. I don't want MCE to die, just last I'd heard it was heading that way.

Although I still don't really see HTPCs putting much pressure on the MSOs to behave. TiVo, while still a niche, at least provides a viable alternative for the average customer. I think that keeps cable companies in check, a little, and keeps CableCARDs alive, for now.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Microsoft already announced that it will be available as an add-on for Windows 10 so I think you're a bit premature in announcing the death of WMC.
> 
> Any more disinformation you wish to spread?


Where have you seen this announcement as I haven't been able to find anything about it? You would expect it to be pretty big news if it was announced.

Scott


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Series3Sub said:


> Well, even Dish subscribers long suspected from the beginning that Auto-Hop was for leverage at contract renewal time,


Wait, aren't you being a little disingenuous?

Wasn't this a *lawsuit* settlement concession? If so, I consider that more significant than simply a "contract renewal time" issue. (Don't get me wrong, I'd be annoyed as a user -- however, I watch PLENTY of shows more than 7 days later.. so it probably would only affect me in that I'd make SURE to delay longer --- but actually, I thought AutoHop originally only worked within 7 days.. guess that changed..)

PrimeTime Anytime (using one tuner for all of the broadcast networks) and AutoHop are two features that _might_ have tempted me away if I also had the other things I use on Tivo -- download to computer (non copy protected shows -- some to keep, some just to effectively expand storage in a low tech way) and watch/download on iOS devices.. though I guess there is the latter with the built in Slingbox versions.. oh, and owned hardware + lifetime..

So I guess that's really a lot of what ifs... and really PTA & AutoHop are the few features that VERY much intrigued me in another DVR.. but the rest of the features/lack of features made it not worth it for me to switch.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HerronScott said:


> Where have you seen this announcement as I haven't been able to find anything about it? You would expect it to be pretty big news if it was announced.
> 
> Scott


it would be big news if they updated it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Last I heard the whole team was disolved. So unless they absorbed MCE into another division I still don't think we'll see any further updates, whether it's in Win10 or not.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

HerronScott said:


> Where have you seen this announcement as I haven't been able to find anything about it? You would expect it to be pretty big news if it was announced.
> 
> Scott


I don't know if Microsoft has actually come out with an official announcement about it, but people are currently able to install Media Center in the Windows 10 Technical Preview version using a purchased key (or a free one if you were able to obtain one when they offered them). The one major caveat is that you will not be able to receive any future updates for the preview version. The OS version also shows up as Windows 8.1 instead of 10. Microsoft indicated that this is just a glitch in the software and that they didn't intend for people to use product keys for other software in conjunction with the Technical Preview release but that it will be corrected in a later release. However, Media Center can be added to Windows 10 from the Windows Store just like it can be added to Windows 8/8.1, so if they still offer it for Windows 8/8.1 after the release of Windows 10 it's a good bet that you will be able to install it. There's been a lot of discussion on this topic over at the AVSForums and probably at the Green Button forums as well.



Dan203 said:


> Last I heard the whole team was disolved. So unless they absorbed MCE into another division I still don't think we'll see any further updates, whether it's in Win10 or not.


That is correct. There will be no further updates to Media Center.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't know if Microsoft has actually come out with an official announcement about it, but people are currently able to install Media Center in the Windows 10 Technical Preview version using a purchased key (or a free one if you were able to obtain one when they offered them). The one major caveat is that you will not be able to receive any future updates for the preview version. The OS version also shows up as Windows 8.1 instead of 10. Microsoft indicated that this is just a glitch in the software and that they didn't intend for people to use product keys for other software in conjunction with the Technical Preview release but that it will be corrected in a later release. However, Media Center can be added to Windows 10 from the Windows Store just like it can be added to Windows 8/8.1, so if they still offer it for Windows 8/8.1 after the release of Windows 10 it's a good bet that you will be able to install it. There's been a lot of discussion on this topic over at the AVSForums and probably at the Green Button forums as well..


Yes I found the Green Button posts where they've installed the 8.1 MCE production key and it "installs" but also beyond the issues you report above no one appears to have cablecard tuners working with it and there is the following post.

dougfoot wrote:
Windows 10 tech preview does not include WMC, and installing a Windows 8 WMC key breaks the tech preview (prevents further tech preview updates).
If you are using Windows 8/8.1 with WMC, you must uninstall WMC in order to do an in-place upgrade to the tech preview.
So the tech preview updates or testing have mentioned WMC...

My bet is that they just have not removed the code from the Technical Preview which allows it to be activated but as Dan said there will be a lot of happy people if they manage to keep/get the current version working with the new OS.

Note that you did say that Microsoft had announced it being available with Windows 10 while accusing Dan of spreading disinformation which isn't exactly fair. 

Scott


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

zalusky said:


> 52% of households with Cable/Sat/Uverse have a DVR. I think your a bit off on that statement.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/30/dvr-percentage-american_n_2220571.html


Yeah, they have DVRs but they have no idea how to use them.

I know an OCD who doesn't like seeing "taped" things on the list even though there is space for 150+ hours in HD.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

HerronScott said:


> Note that you did say that Microsoft had announced it being available with Windows 10 while accusing Dan of spreading disinformation which isn't exactly fair.
> 
> Scott


You are correct and I apologize to Dan for making the remark. It's been a while since I read any of the posts regarding Windows 10 and Media Center and my recollection of events wasn't quite what I thought I remembered. The availability of WMC in Windows 10 is still unknown at this point, but that's not to say that Microsoft won't allow it to be incorporated as an add-on.

I don't see any reason why they wouldn't unless it means restructuring a considerable amount of code to allow it to play nice with the rest of the OS. I don't know how much, if any, of the code interacts with Windows other than acting as any other installed app. If that's the case then I can't see a viable reason to exclude it other than the folks at Microsoft just wanting to be dicks. They're already supporting legacy versions of WMC with guide data so I don't see how it would have a significant impact on their bottom line.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Yeah, they have DVRs but they have no idea how to use them.
> 
> I know an OCD who doesn't like seeing "taped" things on the list even though there is space for 150+ hours in HD.


Is that your sample size to make a blanket statement?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't see any reason why they wouldn't unless it means restructuring a considerable amount of code to allow it to play nice with the rest of the OS. I don't know how much, if any, of the code interacts with Windows other than acting as any other installed app. If that's the case then I can't see a viable reason to exclude it other than the folks at Microsoft just wanting to be dicks. They're already supporting legacy versions of WMC with guide data so I don't see how it would have a significant impact on their bottom line.


One reason to not include it with Windows 10 would be so they can stop providing the guide data when Windows 8 support ends. There has to be some cost and support required there on their part.

Scott


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> You are correct and I apologize to Dan for making the remark. It's been a while since I read any of the posts regarding Windows 10 and Media Center and my recollection of events wasn't quite what I thought I remembered. The availability of WMC in Windows 10 is still unknown at this point, but that's not to say that Microsoft won't allow it to be incorporated as an add-on.
> 
> I don't see any reason why they wouldn't unless it means restructuring a considerable amount of code to allow it to play nice with the rest of the OS. I don't know how much, if any, of the code interacts with Windows other than acting as any other installed app. If that's the case then I can't see a viable reason to exclude it other than the folks at Microsoft just wanting to be dicks. They're already supporting legacy versions of WMC with guide data so I don't see how it would have a significant impact on their bottom line.


It ties into the driver system of the OS. That's how they're able to get CableLabs approval. It ties into the OS at a low enough level that they can "protect the path". This is also why no other DVR software has gotten CableLabs approval. They can't link into the OS low enough to guarantee protection.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

dswallow said:


> If a 30-second commercial averages $100,000, and there's 22 30-second spots available, that's $2.2 million in ad revenue during an hour-long program, on average. If there were 5,000,000 viewers that'd be potentially $0.44/viewer for that hour.


It makes you wonder about the effectiveness of advertising at all. You spend all that money making commercials that you hope will be entertaining, and leave some residual emotional connection to the product.

Wouldn't it be more effective to have a potential consumer spend 10 minutes watching video and reading content, and then filling out a questions to indicate that he learned something . The customer would be free to choose from a variety of products based on things they might purchase (cars, hair products, etc.). The reward would be to watch an episode of SCANDAL or some other TV show. You would have a targeted consumer base instead of a bunch of guys watching commercials on Summer's Eve.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I have always thought that Tivo's big future was in targeted commercials. They should be able to analyze what you watch and what you skip and what you stop for and make commercials targeted just for you sort of like Google does.

The problem is the marketing community for TV does not seem to know how to do anything but the spray us as a whole.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I'd be curious to know just how many people purchased a car or brand of beer based on seeing a commercial. I have made purchases based on seeing something on TV that I wasn't previously aware of, but mostly about a food product or something inexpensive and it never changed my shopping habits for buying products I already knew about. I'd never buy a car based on a TV commercial, but it might pique my interest if it was a model I hadn't seen before, but only if I was currently in the market for a new car. Then again, if I was in the market I'd be looking at more than TV commercials to base my purchase on. OTOH, I haven't bought a new car in over 30 years so the ads are completely wasted on me.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

This move to IP based content has me extremely concerned. I think it will be very bad for consumers that are used to skipping commercials. Whether you use an HTPC or a Tivo, once you record a non-copy protected show, you basically have full control over it. You can download and edit or stream it to your ipad. Those days may be over soon with an ip delivery model that looks a lot like the Hulu Plus model of forced commercials.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

Series3Sub said:


> Using only ONE tuner to record (or watch live, even at all locations at the same time) all major broadcasters 24 hours per day, yes, even outside of PTAT. That would mean that a TiVo Roamio could record all 4 major broadcasters at, say, noon, and still have 3 tuners free for recording more channels.
> 
> Built in Sling: Yes the Roamios have Stream built in, but Sling is the best at what it does and has the proprietary encoding for superior streaming PQ in even slow connections and with far fewer restrictions (we're talking the built-in to the Hopper implantation) than the Mini. Even Dave Zats agrees on that one.


I much prefer the Stream's download functionality over anything the Sling offers. I use the Stream when I'm travelling/commuting or out and about. Most of those times I don't have wifi. With the high cost of cellular data and the spottiness or even absence of reliable cellular data service, being able to download a show to my iphone or ipad is much much more important to me than streaming. Plus everything happens instantaneously and the interface is really nice built into the Tivo app.

The one tuner for network channels is interesting. Does it keep all recordings forever though. Nearly all of my recordings are older than 8 days. If I have a season pass for 2 network shows on at the same time, will the Hopper let me use one tuner for both recordings and also keep both recordings in their own folders until I delete them?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NYHeel said:


> This move to IP based content has me extremely concerned. I think it will be very bad for consumers that are used to skipping commercials. Whether you use an HTPC or a Tivo, once you record a non-copy protected show, you basically have full control over it. You can download and edit or stream it to your ipad. Those days may be over soon with an ip delivery model that looks a lot like the Hulu Plus model of forced commercials.


From Wikipedia:
Internet Protocol television (IPTV) is a system through which television services are delivered using the Internet protocol suite over a packet-switched network such as a LAN or the Internet, instead of being delivered through traditional terrestrial, satellite signal, and cable television formats. Unlike downloaded media, IPTV offers the ability to stream the media in smaller batches, directly from the source. As a result, a client media player can begin playing the data (such as a movie) before the entire file has been transmitted. This is known as streaming media.

IPTV services may be classified into three main groups:

Live television, with or without interactivity related to the current TV show;
Time-shifted television: catch-up TV (replays a TV show that was broadcast hours or days ago), start-over TV (replays the current TV show from its beginning);
Video on demand (VOD): browse a catalog of videos, not related to TV programming.​
So the first thing to understand is that IPTV is here now and in use by many payTV/cable companies. As long as cable/payTV is still broadcasting "live" TV regardless if they are using IPTV or not as the delivery tech we will likely be able to rent/buy a DVR to go along with it and I don't see the "live" TV model going away anytime soon.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

You know what he's talking about, the definition/explanation was not needed. And yes, it is a concern going forward but linear-based channel delivery is not going anywhere for many years IMO.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> You know what he's talking about, the definition/explanation was not needed. And yes, it is a concern going forward but linear-based channel delivery is not going anywhere for many years IMO.


Well I could assume with a fairly high assurance that he was talking about the part of IPTV delivery that Hulu represents, however I had/have no idea if he understood that if tomorrow his payTV provider went to a 100% IPTV delivery that it didn't mean "live" TV would be going away or that he would still be able to record "live" TV if he had a DVR that supported his providers service. So I thought a complete explanation of what IPTV was/could be, was warranted. In any event I don't expect "live" TV to be replaced anytime soon and that we will be able to record it with DVRs one way or another.


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